# Help with marriage



## harveymugman (Jul 23, 2014)

My wife and I have been married 20 years. We both love each other very, very much. We are best friends. We've had issues with sex but nothing in the past year or so but that was not getting in the way of having a wonderful life.

Recently I've felt something was wrong. When I brought that up to my wife she came clean and said "She loved me, but wasn't 'in love' with me". We talked and cried and in the end we agreed we both wanted to stay married and we would work on the marriage. 

I want to believe her but it is difficult getting past the 'not in love with you' statement. On top of that I just found she has recently had some 'boudoir' photos taken of herself and never told me. She doesn't know that I know at this point. 

I really want our marriage to work and feel that it can but I'm a little uneasy and not sure how to deal with my feelings and at the same time, help promote a healthy relationship with the goal of staying married.

Thoughts? TYIA


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Those are very dangerous words for a marriage.

Code for she is in love with another man. She is having an affair.

You will likely tell us how that is impossible, she isn't the type, doesn't have the time, is always with you... But rarely, I will take a stab and say fewer than 10% of the people who ever say those words are not cheating.

What you felt as off is the presence of another man.

Do not ask her. Find out be looking on her phone, your bills, computer, etc.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

The bedroom pics, were selifes or professional?

Who were they for?

Give us more info?

Age? Children? Do you both work? Do you still date each other?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

By the way, I a am very sorry you are here... But depending on the circumstances it may be possible to pull this out of the dirt if you are able to forgive.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You is a VERY common phrase used by cheaters, coupled with the pics I'd say there's another man.


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## harveymugman (Jul 23, 2014)

No children. We both work. Same days and hours except one night a week that I know she is at work. No boyfriends or girlfriends either. I'm 99.9% sure of that. The pictures were professional and done in conjunction with the acting head shots. I didn't know she was getting those done either, btw. 

We still date each other. Constantly. We go on vacations. We do community theatre together. Work out together. We do everything together. We laugh, hold hands, everything. With the expception of an active sex life. My wife says because she is on depressants that she doesn't have much of a sex drive. She says that she wants me to be happy. Which I assure her I am. Until the other day.


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## harveymugman (Jul 23, 2014)

Are the photos just a way for her to feel pretty. (She's about to turn 45). Mid-life crisis? More?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

harveymugman said:


> Are the photos just a way for her to feel pretty.


Yes, but probably for another man.



harveymugman said:


> (She's about to turn 45). Mid-life crisis?


Maybe. There's likely an affair going on either way. 



harveymugman said:


> More?


Again, she's likely having an affair. It's possible (though very unlikely) that she's not, though... Have either of you mentioned marriage counseling?

In the meantime, If I were you, I'd start doing some very discrete digging. Read this...

weightlifter's Standard Evidence-Gathering Post


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

No sex drive? 

So what was the purpose of sensuous photos?

If they're not for you, then who? The theater group?

Look, I'm not saying shes stepping out on you. I and the others here are saying these are questions that need to be answered and eliminate so you can decide on a path of action. 

Counseling can be of help. The effects of the ADs should be discussed also. There are many books and programs you can use as a guide to reconnect. Some of them are eye openers. But nothing will work if she has an attraction to another man. Do you understand that?


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## harveymugman (Jul 23, 2014)

Gus: trust me there is no cheating going on. I've checked her email and phone. The only thing I found was an email to the photog.

anchor:Good question, which is why I brought it up. Was wondering if any of the ladies have had those photos take just to make them feel better about getting older.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

harveymugman said:


> Gus: trust me there is no cheating going on. I've checked her email and phone. The only thing I found was an email to the photog.


How does the sand taste?

Harvey, look... seriously...

9.9 times out of 10, the "I love you but I'm not in love w/ you" speech literally means more or less exactly that. Here's another (and much more honest) way to phrase it...

"We've spent years building a life, home, and family together... so, while it's impossible for me to not love you _at some level_, any romantic love that I have to give at this point is aimed directly at the man that has been depositing his semen into my birth canal."

Sorry if that's harsh, but it seems like you need to shaken out of your comfort zone a bit. Is it possible that you're the .1 out of 10? Yeah. But I'm begging you... _start digging more deeply._

Start w/ a couple of VARs -- one in the house, one in the car. Read, re-read, and re-re-read the VAR section of the post that I linked above.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Okay, then. Just stay aware, eyes open, and do your due diligence. 
The ILYBINILWY means if she doesn't have someone yet, shes susceptible tor someone else filling her emotional needs. So you do need to get a plan together and act. 

Here are some links, that might help. The books are easy and fast reads. Download them. Of course, a Good MC is worth their weight in gold, if you compare that to the cost of divorce.

A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts

Intimacy & Desire: Description | Crucible4Points.com

Home | The 5 Love Languages®


BTW, what exactly does she say is missing?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

anchorwatch said:


> No sex drive?
> 
> So what was the purpose of sensuous photos?
> 
> If they're not for you, then who? *The theater group?*


Ha!



anchorwatch said:


> Look, I'm not saying shes stepping out on you. I and the others here are saying these are questions that need to be answered and eliminate so you can decide on a path of action.


Agreed.



anchorwatch said:


> Counseling can be of help. The effects of the ADs should be discussed also. There are many books and programs you can use as a guide to reconnect. Some of them are eye openers. But nothing will work if she has an attraction to another man. Do you understand that?


Again, agreed.

OP, get to work!


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

Time to start going investigating big time Harvey.

ILUBNILWU + secret racy photos + low interest in sex with you = BIG TROUBLE.

Harvey, she is cheating on you. Time to start playing dumb around her while you start snooping !


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

harveymugman said:


> We still date each other. Constantly. We go on vacations. We do community theatre together. Work out together. We do everything together. We laugh, hold hands, everything. With the expception of an active sex life. *My wife says because she is on depressants that she doesn't have much of a sex drive. She says that she wants me to be happy*. Which I assure her I am. Until the other day.


OK, sooooo... Did she explain what she meant by this? Was she giving you permission to pursue sexual relations w/ other women... outside of your marriage?


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## harveymugman (Jul 23, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> How does the sand taste?
> 
> Harvey, look... seriously...
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you've been through Gus, and I appreciate you wanting to help, but I think you are wayoff base here. I would appreciate any other help from this forum other than 'spy on your wife'. It's just not something I'm comfortable with as a human being as well as a loving husband. If I turn out to be wrong, then so be it. Again, thanks for the input.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> How does the sand taste?
> 
> Harvey, look... seriously...
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## harveymugman (Jul 23, 2014)

barbados said:


> :iagree:


Look folks, telling me to spy on wife to find out what's going on is NOT helping me with my feelings, which is why I came here. If that's all you have to offer then I will be moving on. And trust me, my head is not buried in the sand. 

It's seems by looking at your profiles the only ones that have commented are males. I think I would very much like to hear from the female side of the group. All those with penis' please put your hands down. May I hear a females perspective.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

harveymugman said:


> I'm not sure what you've been through Gus, and I appreciate you wanting to help, but I think you are wayoff base here. I would appreciate any other help from this forum other than 'spy on your wife'. It's just not something I'm comfortable with as a human being as well as a loving husband. If I turn out to be wrong, then so be it. Again, thanks for the input.


Harvey, please don't get me wrong here... I *hope* that there's nothing going on. Really, I do. But the notion that your wife isn't having an affair just doesn't add up given everything else that you've provided.

Let's look objectively at all of the signs...

1) ILYBINILWY speech
2) Racy photos _that you knew *nothing* about_
3) No sex drive

If one of your friends were to impart your story to you as his own, what would you tell him?

Right now you're in the trenches, and you need a 30,000 foot view. That's why you came here, right? Well, that's what we're providing.

Tell you what, maybe hit us w/ some more background information...

How old are the two of you?

How long have you been married?

Is this the only marriage for both of you?

What do the two of you do for work?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

harveymugman said:


> Look folks, telling me to spy on wife to find out what's going on is NOT helping me with my feelings, which is why I came here. If that's all you have to offer then I will be moving on. And trust me, my head is not buried in the sand.
> 
> It's seems by looking at your profiles the only ones that have commented are males. I think I would very much like to hear from the female side of the group. All those with penis' please put your hands down. May I hear a females perspective.


For what it's worth, clipclop and ariel are both females...



clipclop2 said:


> By the way, I a am very sorry you are here... But depending on the circumstances it may be possible to pull this out of the dirt if you are able to forgive.





ariel_angel77 said:


> I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You is a VERY common phrase used by cheaters, coupled with the pics I'd say there's another man.


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## harveymugman (Jul 23, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Harvey, please don't get me wrong here... I *hope* that there's nothing going on. Really, I do. But the notion that your wife isn't having an affair just doesn't add up given everything else that you've provided.
> 
> Let's look objectively at all of the signs...
> 
> ...


As I said in the original post we've been married 20 plus years. Only marriage for both. We are 57 and 45. We spend approximately 0 hours when we are not at work or together. I know how many hours she works as I handle the bills and the income monitoring. I might not know if she took off an hour from work, once, to have the pictures taken (seems like it was last week) but I would know if she took off enough time to have any sort of affair. It just isn't happening. For all I know the photos are a surprise for me! 

I really would appreciate the input of some others in the group, especially the females.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

I hope I'm wrong. I really do. I'll bow out for now.

But Harvey... I'm only ever a PM away. Feel free to click the button should you feel the need.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

The ladies will be along, Harvey.

Can I ask again, what is it that she says is missing?

Is it just mismatched libidos, or is there something else?


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## harveymugman (Jul 23, 2014)

anchorwatch said:


> The ladies will be along, Harvey.
> 
> Can I ask again, what is it that she says is missing?
> 
> Is it just mismatched libidos, or is there something else?


She hasn't said she's missing anything. Just not into sex now.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Not into sex? Did menopause start yet?

That's probably the most common complaint here, for both sexes. Take a look at the sex section. 

How about you, Harvey? 

If you don't light her up, what do you think she's missing? 

Are you healthy? Active? Attractive? What do you do to make life exciting? 

In other words do you do things to emotionally and mentally engage her?

Who leads the relationship, you or her?


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

Hi, Harvey

I'm a female but quite a bit younger (29). ILYBINILWY = she's moved on. She might not even have anybody yet so she will not let you go just yet. That's why she says she loves you, just not IN love. 

The good news is, if she really is not cheating, you can still get her back. since you don't want to do any information gathering, at least start with the books recommended earlier in this thread. It's probably not too late! 

P.S. I hope the boudoir pics are a surprise. I had some done for my H for our anniversary last year. Maybe she had them done to try and spice things up. 

One last thing: I wish there were a running count of men who come here like you and say "I know my wife is not cheating." The number one reason they know this is "she doesn' have time." Only to find out she was. I would say hundreds. I sincerely hope you are not one of them.


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Harvey, sorry you are here. First off I know you are hurting and not wanting to hear some of the things you are hearing, but the people telling you this stuff are doing it for a reason and to help. Most of them have been where you are. I know you probably want someone to tell you your wife is going to wake up tomorrow morning and say it was all a mistake and she is in love with you again. That would be great but also not reality.

Sometimes life just gets in the way causing her to have these thoughts. You can’t make anyone feel something they just don’t have anymore. You can't change her but you can yourself. Try to find out what is going on with her that is having her not be in love with you. Sounds like she still cares for you so she might not want to hurt your feelings but there is something. If it’s easier for her to write it to you and not say it in front of you have her do it. Maybe it’s things you can do or change that can get you guys back in the swing of things. If she has nothing to say and just says she doesn’t love you anymore than there is nothing for you to work with. But I would advise to keep talking to her and trying to find out anything you can that might help you. 

Hope things work out for you.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

harveymugman said:


> I'm not sure what you've been through Gus, and I appreciate you wanting to help, but I think you are wayoff base here. I would appreciate any other help from this forum other than 'spy on your wife'. It's just not something I'm comfortable with as a human being as well as a loving husband. If I turn out to be wrong, then so be it. Again, thanks for the input.


 So don't spy, but you do have a mouth don't you? Now you've been married for 20 years and then out of the blue you get the "ILYBINILWY" speech and then you find the pictures of your wife correct?

So the question you ask is simple and direct to the point. "Hey______, I have a question. If your no longer in love with me then who are these boudoir photos
for and why didn't you tell me?"

If she tells you for herself, then ask why she didn't share and if were going to be holding things back from each other like SHE'S BEEN DOING since she told you ILYBNILWY is there anything else that needs to be discussed because I'm trying to keep the marriage and if your going to play this kind of game then whats the sense in giving my all and getting a line of BS in return.

Then you put it in her lap and let her know that you'll go half way and if she can't go the other half then maybe it's time she finds her own space because the space in you house is getting cramped by her not being honest. 

Sitting on this IMO does you no good except making your mind wonder and bet you a shiny red apple, her mind is free and clear. Remember she brought this on and not you. It's called honesty and you need that in a marriage.


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

Female here. I can tell you that if I ever told my husband that I "am not in love with you, but I love you", it would basically mean that I was not emotionally connected to him. The only thing I can think of after 20 years of marriage that would cause that is unsaid resentments. I avoid this in my marriage my talking to my partner truthfully about what hurts me, even if it starts a fight.

Now, you on the other hand, cannot go back and make sure this is done and your wife is not connecting with you emotionally. She may have cried with you, but honestly it was probably because she realizes that she is going to hurt you at some point. 

I hope that your wife really isn't cheating because if she is, your marriage will be very hard to salvage if that is something you would want. If she isn't cheating, you need to have lots of conversations with her about why she isn't in love with you anymore. It may be that she isn't interested in sex for medical reasons with what you have mentioned. However, I know that if my husband initiates with me even when I am not "in the mood", he usually gets me in the mood. You have to be connecting physically and emotionally in order to have a healthy relationship.

Those who recommended counseling are wise to do so. Please talk to your wife about it. I hope you get what you want out of it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm a female. While not every woman who gives that speech is cheating, certainly many are. As has been said, her connection with you is gone. Can you get it back? Well, some do and some don't. Would she agree to marriage counseling?


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## harveymugman (Jul 23, 2014)

Thanks for the input folks. We spoke again for a long while last night and other issues that she has with me popped up that I was totally unaware of. In the end we agreed that our marriage was worth working on and will be heading to some professional counseling. Wish us luck.


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## Faeleaf (Jul 22, 2014)

Good luck. The best thing you can do is make sure she feels 100% emotionally safe to come forward with any problems or concerns she has (which means not arguing with her about them). You can't fix what you don't know about!


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

Complacency might be a component. After 20 years together, there's no surprises, no new experiences to share, no personality that hasn't been seen.

Maybe try something new together. Learn ballroom dancing, an impromptu one tank trip, or something else just to shake things up a bit out of the norm.


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## Iver (Mar 8, 2013)

Since you are confident there is no OM (other man) lurking about...I'd suggest discussing her anti-depressants with her doctor.

Perhaps a different medication or dosage can address some of the problems?

I'd also recommend reading Athol Kay's MMSL guide. Also, if you have a gap between your respective looks i.e. you are a "5" and she's a "7" get that fixed asap. 

(In plain English that means lose the gut.)

Good Luck!


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

harveymugman said:


> Thanks for the input folks. We spoke again for a long while last night and other issues that she has with me popped up that I was totally unaware of. In the end we agreed that our marriage was worth working on and will be heading to some professional counseling. Wish us luck.


 Don't forget that she doesn't walk on water and I'm sure that she does things that wrankle you feathers so don't forget to open your mouth and speak your piece. 

If not. Your going to get with everything from soup to nuts and this whole mess will be totally your fault.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

well I also like to point out that you were unaware of these issues very possibly because people who cheat rewrite history. 

cheaters will come up with reasons also known as excuses. You want to believethem so you jump through hoops to try to make things right but they have already disconnected so there's nothing you can do to put things right.

In fact a lot of cheaters agree to go to counseling because they want to say they tried everything to save their marriage before they exit. Then months later the new boyfriend or girlfriend turns up.

sometimes its not even months later. After they painted you black because they aren't getting you to break up with them the way they envisioned, all nice and easy. then they step out and say that the marriage is over anyway and they're not really cheating. 

I don't know if that's the worst that can happen when a spouse doesn't play the way their cheating spouse wants them to play but it's one of the ways things can get nasty.

I'm going to sitout of the rest of this thread because I don't like the fact that you are unwilling to do any research to figure out if she is cheating. You want to believe what you want to believe. and I find that a little bit odd because anyone who actually cares about the relationship should want to do all the work necessary to discern what the actual problem is.

since you think that looking into some of the things that she does or doesn't do is spying then you have a very different opinion of the idea of privacy versus secrecy in a marriage. if you don't have immediate full access to all of her accounts and are also afraid to look at your own bills to see if there's anything there that is cause for concern I would have to say that you are electing to bury your head in the sand rather than that you strongly believe what you think you believe.

I really can't think of many people who didn't hear those words and not finally uncover cheating. I think you are being foolish. You said it yourself that this line of thinking isn't helping you to FEEL better. Do you want to FEEL appropriate feelings based on the reality or do you want to feel better at all costs? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

harveymugman said:


> Thanks for the input folks. We spoke again for a long while last night and other issues that she has with me popped up that I was totally unaware of. In the end we agreed that our marriage was worth working on and will be heading to some professional counseling. Wish us luck.


Best of luck to you!

In the meantime, your "homework" is to read up on the following...

gaslighting
blame-shifting
deflection


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Anti-depressants can cause all sorts of issues, one of which is decreased sex drive. It is possible that all of the issues your wife is having are due to the medication she is on.
As far as the sexy photos, that does raise a red flag for me. There are many people on TAM who say that their spouse has no time for an affair, yet their spouse is having one. I hope you are not one of those people. I think the problem is most likely the medication she is on.
How did you find out about the photos?


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Good luck.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

harveymugman said:


> As I said in the original post we've been married 20 plus years. Only marriage for both. We are 57 and 45. We spend approximately 0 hours when we are not at work or together. I know how many hours she works as I handle the bills and the income monitoring. I might not know if she took off an hour from work, once, to have the pictures taken (seems like it was last week) but I would know if she took off enough time to have any sort of affair. It just isn't happening. For all I know the photos are a surprise for me!
> 
> I really would appreciate the input of some others in the group, especially the females.


I'm speaking as a female who had a Horrendous sex drive increase at age 42.. I will call it my Mid Life Crisis.. in our case I THREW myself into my husband ...and revived our sex life to a place he could hardly keep up.. If I didn't do that.. and set my sites elsewhere.. It would have been very very bad and surely the beginning of the end..

If my husband wasn't up for it - I think it could have destroyed our marriage.. You are 13 yrs older than her.. I know when this happened to ME.. I was wishing my husband was 20 yrs younger than me! 

She is 45..Prime age for a lot of reflection... the only thing you have said that makes me think she might not be having an affair - is her libido is probably tanked due to those depression drugs..a Mid Life Crisis.. Yes!!



> *inquizitivemind said*: Female here. I can tell you that if I ever told my husband that* I "am not in love with you, but I love you", it would basically mean that I was not emotionally connected to him. The only thing I can think of after 20 years of marriage that would cause that is unsaid resentments. I avoid this in my marriage my talking to my partner truthfully about what hurts me, even if it starts a fight.*
> 
> Now, you on the other hand, cannot go back and make sure this is done and your wife is not connecting with you emotionally. She may have cried with you, but honestly it was probably because she realizes that she is going to hurt you at some point.


 I am thinking the same thing.. this often happens to 2 passive people who have allowed resentments to fester over a long period of time.. *APATHY* creeps into the marriage ...it's better to have a Brawl once in a while, and get it out on the table ...and work it out so each can find that authentic peace / emotional connection & be back in each others arms.

A post I did on Apathy a while back...



> How important, when the laughter stops in the home, the smiles, the
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

anchorwatch said:


> Okay, then. Just stay aware, eyes open, and do your due diligence.
> The ILYBINILWY means if she doesn't have someone yet, shes susceptible tor someone else filling her emotional needs. So you do need to get a plan together and act.
> 
> Here are some links, that might help. The books are easy and fast reads. Download them. Of course, a Good MC is worth their weight in gold, if you compare that to the cost of divorce.
> ...



Another Highly recommended Book >>> His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage  ~ Going by these emotional needs laid out in this book (a chapter devoted to each).... what do *you* feel you have been missing. what do you feel *she* might say was missing from the marriage?? 



> 10 Emotional needs:
> 
> 
> 1. *Admiration*
> ...


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I'm sorry about this.

If she is not cheating, then maybe she is getting ready to be a walk-away-wife. Research the concept. The husband thinks everything is fine in most cases but the wife does not, does not communicate her unhappiness, then blindsides the husband when she walks away.

Female here.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

There are hundreds of posts in the infidelity section that started in this section that are almost verbatim to your post. Oh yeah, without surreptitious budoior pictures.

Work place affairs are the hardest to catch. One was caught due to his wife butt dialing her husband. Missthelove's wife got caught by the om wife. Read missthelove's thread.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Late to this thread, but the snoop to verfiy is a must here. The speech is telling you she is either cheating or looking to cheat.

The pics were made for someone besides you, so you need to find out who they were made for.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

harveymugman said:


> As I said in the original post we've been married 20 plus years. Only marriage for both. We are 57 and 45. We spend approximately 0 hours when we are not at work or together. I know how many hours she works as I handle the bills and the income monitoring. I might not know if she took off an hour from work, once, to have the pictures taken (seems like it was last week) but I would know if she took off enough time to have any sort of affair. It just isn't happening. For all I know the photos are a surprise for me!
> 
> I really would appreciate the input of some others in the group, especially the females.


Harvey, listen to the folks here. Quit thinking you know everything about your wife because....well, you don't. Her behavior is right out of the cheaters play book. There is absolutely nothing special or different about what she is doing that differentiates her from other walk-away wives or wayward wives that we have seen here. 

It only takes a one hour lunch break for a man and a woman to meet for a thirty minute tryst. It only takes 15 minutes to have a quickie in a car in a parking lot. Don't think your wife would do something like that? You would not believe the number of devastated spouses who have come on this forum, completely gobsmacked and appalled to learn that their sweet, upstanding, moral spouses did just that. 

My first inclination is to think she may be having an affair. My second inclination is to think she had the boudoir photos taken to send to prospective dating partners on a dating website. 

I'm not a female, but I can assure you you are playing with fire by not trying to dig deeper. My guess is she is using her business e-mail or another form of communication that you are not aware of.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Your wife is on anti-depressant. By definition, if a person is depressed, she is not happy. Your wife is unhappy. She is taking a medication that has many psychological ramifications, rather than getting to the bottom of what is bothering her. It is very likely that your wife has unresolved issues that have caused her to get to this point. That combined with the medication she is on that is known to lower libedo and it makes sense that she is making these statements. I'm not ruling out an affair, but what you are saying about the depression and the medication could explain everything.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Ilybnilwy. Redflag

Sexy pictures not for husband because she isn't in love with him. Redflag

Depression/medication. Redflag

Issues about the marriage but it comes as surprise to faithful marriage. Redflag




She may not be cheating but she is following the cheaters script we have seen here thousands of times to a tee.


What exactly were these issues she has now revealed that she is no longer in love with you.

Warning, a marriage counselor that doesn't fit is worse than no counselor. If they start laying the blame on you, get up and run.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Btw, how long has she been on anti depressents?


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

While I support the idea that this is a classic cheater's line, there may be more at play here.

About 20% of the time this phrase is used by people who know they want to change things but have NO IDEA how to do it.

This mindset is often referred to as "Mommy come fix it."
They often wear themselves out because they cant "see" a way to fix it or get out.

Just a thought.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

SamuraiJack said:


> While I support the idea that this is a classic cheater's line, there may be more at play here.
> 
> About 20% of the time this phrase is used by people who know they want to change things but have NO IDEA how to do it.
> 
> ...


Are you responding solely to the ILYBINILWY line? If so, take a moment to consider a) the boudoir pics that she had taken (w/o revealing this to her husband) and b) her stated lack of interest in sex w/ her husband.


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

So happy to hear you are getting counseling. Keep the lines of communication open and don't be afraid to say anything to clear up that communication.


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## Iver (Mar 8, 2013)

Please keep updating this thread; I'm hoping you are correct and there is not an OM in the picture.

The reason there are so many naysayers is, well, experience has been a bitter teacher.

I am curious about the boudoir photo's. What was the story with that? (It is possible she just did them for a bit of an ego boost so I don't necessarily think it proves an affair.)


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Are you responding solely to the ILYBINILWY line? If so, take a moment to consider a) the boudoir pics that he had taken (w/o revealing this to her husband) and b) her stated lack of interest in sex w/ her husband.


Boudior pictures are a perk when you are doing casting photos. They usually throw them in for "half price" because its something they can do that is rare and more enjoyable...plus the photog gets to see spicy outfits and skin.

The lack of interest may be hormonal or based off the antidepressants. When I was a therapist I often had to make sure couples knew about this when they started.

Not to discount your experience, but occasionally there may be more at stake here than just "She's freaking cheating!! BURN HER!!!"(Queue "The Mob Rules~ Black Sabbath)

I still stand by my claim that there is an 80% chance that she IS cheating....but I am trying to supply something from MY experience as well.

My wife didnt physically cheat on me as near as I can tell, yet used the same hackneyed line. She had told herself so many things about us and herself that she was physically tired from running around the pen she built. 
Even admitted so on my investigation for TS Clearance.

People do things for all kinds of reasons that dont have to fit in with any one world view...despite how it may seem.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Are you responding solely to the ILYBINILWY line? If so, take a moment to consider a) the boudoir pics that he had taken (w/o revealing this to her husband) and b) her stated lack of interest in sex w/ her husband.


Have to agree with SamuraiJack though. Stated otherwise: she may well be "just" a WAW. Without the cheating (yet). The ILYBNILWY is just as common for WAWs as it is for cheaters.

Not that it is less worrisome. You may want to read Andrew Marshal's book with the same title. Ugh. Or Michelle Weiner Davis. These will def broaden your scope a little.

Anyway.

The lack of interest in sex with OP in that case is normal. Especially if his wife was a bit LD in the first place. Add antidepressants, all drive gone.

Not all WAWs stray. Some do, some don't. If they do, they are far enough in the process to do so... i.e. they have moved on so far already they have all but left. I had the "pleasure" of talking to one of those recently and she was def open for an affair. Dang, she didn't even consider it as such anymore. She was done, done, done.

The photos don't necessarily point to an affair either. She may feel boring and not sexy, for whatever reason, and have them taken to boost her self esteem. Still very much WAW behaviour.

Of course, I could be wrong about all this.

So OP, by all means, go to MC if she wants to go. You have nothing to lose. Listen to her, no arguing about her complaints. State your own, no problem.

But whatever you do, try to stay cool and fair. No begging, crying or groveling.

You can do this brother.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

No one is saying she is cheating but there are many signs of it. Even agreeing to MC is not an indicator she is not. Hopefully she isn't but it HAS to be ruled out. Supposedly 4 out of 5 affairs are never discovered by the spouse.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

harveymugman said:


> Thanks for the input folks. We spoke again for a long while last night* and other issues that she has with me popped up that I was totally unaware of. * In the end we agreed that our marriage was worth working on and will be heading to some professional counseling. Wish us luck.


Are you SURE you knew nothing of these other issues?? Are you SURE that she has not come to you time and again with these, and you blew it off as something that wasnt important?? That is what USUALLY happens when a women is done enough to give the ILYBNILWY speech, if they are not cheating! I know because I am one of those women. We talk and talk til we are blue in the face, while our H ignores and denies what we are saying...then once we decide we are DONE, suddenly we are labeled a walk away wife! :scratchhead: 

I think you have been in denial about the true state of your relationship for a long time and it is JUST NOW coming to focus because she clobbered you over the head with it. I also think there is a high chance she IS cheating, due to the pics. Seems waaayyyy too coincidental to ignore.


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## LBHmidwest (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm the hammer.

get your money in order
start getting ready to say no to any request
get the best attorney around


you think being nice, supportive will help.

It will get you used, fleeced and destroyed.

When you get the I don't love you, she's already gone. She just hasn't moved her or preferably for her - YOUR stuff out. 

Affair or not, start acting like you don't need to be her floormat.

Yes, I'll say it. I'm one hard SOB and I should have listened to the advice I'm giving you.

Good luck. Start thinking about you. She's been focused on her far longer than you know.


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## harveymugman (Jul 23, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies. I regret to say that as of one week ago I found she was cheating on me. Inconceivable.

7 years a friend with this guy (who is married, has a teenage son and not happy in his relationship).1 month 'seeing each other'. She made a mistake and I called her on it. She admitted immediately. That night, after talking for an hour or so she went to be with him. The next day he asked his wife for a divorce. She did not ask me for one.

She's been living with a female friend since then. She has agreed to go to counseling but here's the rub. She says she's in love with him and won't stop seeing him during counseling. (We have our first session Monday). I'm willing to hear what the therapist has to say but it all seems a waste of time, especially after being told 'I think of you like a brother' and 'I know I can't be in live with again.' 

I'm a wreck. On top of it all my financial future is now in limbo and I don't know what to do. We have kids (except our pets) we own our house (paid for with my inheritance) but our monthly bills are just high enough to make it basically impossible for me to carry the weight with my salary. What little savings I had set aside will begin to vanish quickly. I should add that I'm 57 so there's that.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Sorry for the circumstances. Counseling is useless if a third party is involved. You'd be better served with the services of a lawyer. Stand up and take charge of your life and family. What ever you want to do, don't allow her to drive the ship.

As you can see your wife is too wrapped up in the emotions of an affair, to make any decisions that concern the welfare of you and your children. You can read about it here, anatomy-of-an-affair. You'l need to act deliberately, to protect you and your family. That does not mean with anger, it means you'll need to gather your strength together in this time of stress, and do it with resolve. There will be a period of time before a divorce will happen, many things can and do happen. 

Here is a list of behaviors you can follow to help you with your emotions and interaction with her. Print them out, follow them, live them. Do not implore, beg, or try to reason, with her. 

180 List - No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group

If you decide you want to break up the A, you might post in the infidelity section for help. What do you want to do?


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Oh no....I am so very sorry. 2 families destroyed here.

Your post is unclear if you have children. Do you?

I agree with anchorwatch. Why go to marriage counseling with her? What do you hope to accomplish? I think she will just bash you in front of the counselor to justify her cheating. I know THAT wouldn't make be feel better.

Keep reading on this site for what to do now that she has confessed.

Good luck.


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## harveymugman (Jul 23, 2014)

No children 3 cats and 2 ferrets


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Re: Help with marriage*



harveymugman said:


> No children 3 cats and 2 ferrets


Sorry, I thought you mentioned children. That was the OM, who has children? 

Harvey, what do you want here? Tell us so we might help you with that.


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## harveymugman (Jul 23, 2014)

anchorwatch said:


> Sorry, I thought you mentioned children. That was the OM, who has children?
> 
> Harvey, what do you want here? Tell us so we might help you with that.


At this point I'm not sure. I'll see what happens tomorrow at therapy. Everything about this is unknown. How to deal with my feelings, money, my future in general. So many unknowns, it's overwhelming.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

harveymugman said:


> Thanks for all the replies. I regret to say that as of one week ago I found she was cheating on me. Inconceivable.
> 
> 7 years a friend with this guy (who is married, has a teenage son and not happy in his relationship).1 month 'seeing each other'. She made a mistake and I called her on it. She admitted immediately. That night, after talking for an hour or so she went to be with him. The next day he asked his wife for a divorce. She did not ask me for one.
> 
> ...



Cancel the counselling in that case. Complete waste of time and money when she is involved in an active affair.

You first must terminate her affair with extreme prejudice. Let everyone in the whole world who knows her hear all the gory details of what she's doing and with whom, especially the other man's wife. "unhappy in his relationship" .... yeah sure, that's what he's telling your wife just to get in her pants.


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## LBHmidwest (Jan 3, 2014)

Attorney
Keep her out of house
Don't go to counseling
Keep your money, don't pay her bills at all
start to get rid of bills - cable, AAA, extra anything, start eating in, change the thermostats

buckle down, the storm is getting worse, not better


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

In any event you HAVE to contact the other man's wife. More often than not they haven't really told her what's going on and she has no clue her husband is having an affair. Men rarely dump their family for a woman they know will cheat.

Although you wife has admitted an affair, that is about the only thing you can believe that has come out of her mouth. They ALWAYS lie.

Your best bet now is to put him on cheaterville.com, email him and let him know he is posted there, also give him the google link(they really like that), and talk to his wife. Do not depend on messaging her as typically a cheating husband will intercept their facebook and emails. The only way you know you have actually gotten in touch with the right person is to talk to them. Go by their house if you have to.

What state do you live in?

How did you catch her?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

BTW, as others have mentioned, if there is an affair going on, counseling is a waste of money. If you just want to talk to her however, you might as well go to one session. You will likely just hear a bunch of BS though. She is in affair fog.

DO NOT TELL HER YOU ARE GOING TO TALK TO HIS WIFE. DO NOT TELL HER HOW YOU GET ANY INFORMATION ABOUT HER AFFAIR.

Get the MMSLP book linked to below. It will shortly show you what went wrong with your marriage.

How does she know the POSOM?


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

You are at a crucial point where you can make some choices that will greatly improve your situation or make matters worse. Take a breath, read what people have to say here. Ask questions and take time to make a plan. It feels like an emergency now, but it is not. This will be going on for quite some time to come. Be very careful about what information and how much of it that you give to her. You do not want to show your cards to her, but she does need to understand that you are not going to tolerate being cheated on.
If you cancel counseling, you will still have to pay since you didn't cancel 24 hours in advance, so if your insurance is involved, you will need to go, even if it's just to tell her that you are not going to try to work things out or attend counseling unless she goes no contact with the other man.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

harveymugman said:


> Thanks for all the replies. I regret to say that as of one week ago I found she was cheating on me. Inconceivable.
> 
> 7 years a friend with this guy (who is married, has a teenage son and not happy in his relationship).1 month 'seeing each other'. She made a mistake and I called her on it. She admitted immediately. That night, after talking for an hour or so she went to be with him. The next day he asked his wife for a divorce. She did not ask me for one.
> 
> ...


Man...

Sorry to hear this, Harvey.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

harveymugman said:


> Thanks for all the replies. I regret to say that as of one week ago I found she was cheating on me. Inconceivable.


There you go... Now you know.



> She's been living with a female friend since then. She has agreed to go to counseling but here's the rub. She says she's in love with him and won't stop seeing him during counseling. (We have our first session Monday). I'm willing to hear what the therapist has to say but it all seems a waste of time, especially after being told 'I think of you like a brother' and 'I know I can't be in live with again.'
> 
> I'm a wreck. On top of it all my financial future is now in limbo and I don't know what to do. We have kids (except our pets) we own our house (paid for with my inheritance) but our monthly bills are just high enough to make it basically impossible for me to carry the weight with my salary. What little savings I had set aside will begin to vanish quickly. I should add that I'm 57 so there's that.


Then stop wasting money on counseling. Counseling wont stop her affair when she's still seeing her lover. Counselors aren't magicians.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Hey Harvey, 

Have you had time to gather yourself? 

Was the therapy helpful enough to lead you to a decision, as to what you want?


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## harveymugman (Jul 23, 2014)

anchorwatch said:


> Hey Harvey,
> 
> Have you had time to gather yourself?
> 
> Was the therapy helpful enough to lead you to a decision, as to what you want?


I still don't know what to do. I just posted in the therapy section looking for help. 

The wife stuck to her guns about no wanting to be without the lover. I stuck my guns that I wanted our marriage restored and could not imagine one with the other person in her life. 

The therapist talked about us finding common ground and working toward resolution. She said she didn't think our marriage was irretrievable. Therapist even talked about getting back to being sexual.

But all the time I can't help doubting that could ever happen. That we're just wasting time and money. That side of me is at war with the other side that wants to believe our marriage can be saved. I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing in therapy. /sigh


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## sunvalley (Dec 4, 2011)

harveymugman said:


> The wife stuck to her guns about no wanting to be without the lover. I stuck my guns that I wanted our marriage restored and could not imagine one with the other person in her life.


Harvey, I'm truly sorry you're going through this. I can only imagine your shock, hurt and anger. Please listen to the others on this forum (and in the Coping with Infidelity forum) that have been through this. They can give you a lot of tips and good advice.

Let me give you a woman's perspective: If my husband were living with a male friend while seeing someone else ... and said in counseling that he would NOT give up his girlfriend but wanted to remain married to me ... well, he'd find himself on the curb with friction burns on his butt and his belongings next to him. He's telling me, loud and clear, that he doesn't want to be on my team anymore. I would not waste time with that man.



harveymugman said:


> The therapist talked about us finding common ground and working toward resolution. She said she didn't think our marriage was irretrievable. Therapist even talked about getting back to being sexual.


Your therapist is an idiot. Sorry to be so blunt ... but *seriously?* Did this therapist not hear your wife say she WON'T give up her lover while she's in counseling?? And do you really want to be her fallback guy while she dances around outside your marriage? Whatever you may have contributed to your marital problems, you deserve better than that.

Take "wifey" at her word. Stop the counseling, kick her out and wish her well with the new boyfriend, and start divorce proceedings. I know this may seem inconceivable right now .... but she has already told you she's not interested in being on your team (if not in those words). Keep your cards close to your vest. And above all, do NOT scream or curse at her, beg for a second chance, or cry. She doesn't deserve any emotion from you -- not after having the brass ones to tell you, "I wanna keep my lover BUT I want you to be my fallback guy."

Again, I'm truly sorry you're going through this. Keep us posted.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

harveymugman said:


> I still don't know what to do. I just posted in the therapy section looking for help.
> 
> The wife stuck to her guns about no wanting to be without the lover. I stuck my guns that I wanted our marriage restored and could not imagine one with the other person in her life.
> 
> ...


Harvey, just wondering... have you spoken w/ OMW (*O*ther *M*an's *W*ife) at all?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

You didn't agree to an open relationship when you got married. To insist that she keep her lover while 'working towards reconciliation' is absurd. She isn't putting in any effort to actually reconcile, she's just doing it because she feels a bit guilty and is trying to hold off on the ugliness that is about to come crashing down on you both; divorce.

Thing is though, how long are you going to put your life on hold while she strings you along? How many years are you going to waste being 'separated' and 'trying to reconcile' while she's off shagging someone else?


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Harvey, really sorry to have you here. Am I to understand that you are willing to take her back if she stops what she is doing ? Even though she has cheated and slept with another man ?

If so, then this affair really needs to be busted up first.

Have you informed the wife of the POSOM ? This has got to be your first step. Even if she says he is leaving his wife etc do not believe anything you hear from her. You know that she has been lying to you.

The next step is that she has to acknowledge, accept and own her wrong-doing (no matter how bad your marriage was or wasn't).

If these things don't happen there is no chance of R and you will be hurting yourself even further.

On a side note, has your age difference ever been an issue for her ? I would imagine it probably wasn't when you started out 20+ years ago, but did it ever become any kind of issue later on. Is the POSOM younger than you ?


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Do not hide the affair with her. Do you know who the other man is?
The longer they are able to keep it hidden, the longer they can live in the fantasy world that they have created. A huge part of most affairs is the fantasy world that they create. It cannot be maintained when they have to deal with the real world. This is a big reason why it is important to expose the affair to their friends and family. Yes, it will make them angry, but why would you want to keep their secret - the secret that has destroyed your marriage? It's like not telling that a burglar broke into your home, because you don't want to make the burglar angry.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Exposing the affair is the best chance of killing it.
Forget mc until this happens.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

harveymugman said:


> ...
> 
> ...The wife stuck to her guns about no wanting to be without the lover.
> ...I stuck my guns that I wanted our marriage restored and could not imagine one with the other person in her life.
> ...





sunvalley said:


> ...
> 
> Your therapist is an idiot....


:iagree:

What a waste of time and money.

There is no "common ground" in this situation. Pathetic!

Quit MC, inform the OM's wife, and file for divorce. Protect yourself, read up on the 180 and start preparing yourself for life without her.

I feel for you, bud, but you can't save a marriage on your own, and unless OM is gone and she's on-board with you, it's doomed. She already told you she's not in love with you, she's in love with him, so she's just using you right now. Don't accept it. Realize what you CAN control, and that is what you put up with.

Quit MC, expose and file.


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## harveymugman (Jul 23, 2014)

manfromlamancha said:


> Harvey, really sorry to have you here. Am I to understand that you are willing to take her back if she stops what she is doing ? Even though she has cheated and slept with another man ?
> 
> If so, then this affair really needs to be busted up first.
> 
> ...


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## harveymugman (Jul 23, 2014)

Affair is exposed to all of our friends.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

harveymugman said:


> Affair is exposed to all of our friends.


File for divorce. There have to be repercussions for her actions. As long as you do nothing, she feels that you are OK with the situation. Filing for divorce lets her know that you are NOT HAPPY and that her chance of keeping her marriage are starting to dwindle.

I understand that you do not want to be divorced. However, it takes TWO to make a marriage, not just one.

I wish you the best. Be strong.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

harveymugman said:


> The wife stuck to her guns about no wanting to be without the lover. I stuck my guns that I wanted our marriage restored and could not imagine one with the other person in her life.
> 
> The therapist talked about us finding common ground and working toward resolution. She said she didn't think our marriage was irretrievable. Therapist even talked about getting back to being sexual.


Harvey, I just want to be sure you see how ridiculous is the therapist's notion of "common ground" here. What "resolution" does he/she have in mind? W stays with you on MWF, goes to OM on TTh? Trade off every other weekend??



sunvalley said:


> Your therapist is an idiot.


This, unfortunately, is one of the most often repeated sentences on TAM.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Philat said:


> Harvey, I just want to be sure you see how ridiculous is the therapist's notion of "common ground" here. What "resolution" does he/she have in mind? W stays with you on MWF, goes to OM on TTh? Trade off every other weekend??
> 
> 
> 
> This, unfortunately, is one of the most often repeated sentences on TAM.


:iagree: That is one serious quack.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

You know I see it quoted over on marriagebuilders all the time that marriage counselors as a group have a higher divorce rate than the general population.

Mull that over.

Stop wasting your money.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Hey Harvey, how are you holding up?


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## MrsStudMuffin (May 11, 2014)

If it is any consolation, my dear husband was divorced at 57. He'd had a HORRIBLE marriage with the kind of woman who gives shrews a bad name. Waited until the last kid was off to college and pulled the plug...but not before going to 5 marriage counselors. Mrs. Shrew kept firing them whenever they disagreed with her view of the world. He really is a kind and persistent and optimistic guy. 

Finally, enough was enough when the last counselor asked him to recall some issues with the then-Mrs. and hubby related several incidents and occurrences. He had been a journalist early in his career, he had good recall. The counselor dinged him for "grievance packing," and when the STBXW snickered at the counselor's comment, it was Hubby's last straw. 

Funny how you can go thru continuous and unremitting hell for years and then one little thing prompts action. 

He is happier now than ever and we have a good life getting better as I'm loosening up and getting rid of some of my hang ups about sex. Good luck to you. Don't look back.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

It is very possible to receive good advice from people who have screwed up their own marriages. It is also possible for the reason someone is still married be the other spouse. The other 50% of marriages that do not end in divorce are not 100% healthy or happy.

I should think that if we applied the caveat about counselors to TAM we would have very little good advice instead of the generally solid advice that we provide.

You have to shop for a therapist. People are reluctant because it is so personal to decide not to go back when what you hear doesn't make sense or seem right. But that's what people have to do. They are more likely to stop going to a mechanic than a doctor or therapist.


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