# Incredibly Confused



## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

My husband and I have been married for 10 years, we have 2 kids.

I found out (when I was pregnant) 3 years into our marriage my husband (fiancee at the time) has cheated on me 5 months before we got married.
we worked thru it, or perhaps rather I did because I wanted to for my baby.

I have my suspicions he cheated on me during pregnancy. I don’t know why but it’s a feeling..he denies it.

I found out two years ago my husband went to a strip club several times in a one week period when he was away at a conference. Spent over 10 grand. I went thru A LOT over this...had major health issues. Cried a lot. It was a real ****ty time. After couples therapy I decided to give our marriage another chance. Again.

And fast forward to last month. My “lovely” husband was out of town, went to a strip club, and got a DUI on his way back. 

I know some guys, couples go to strip clubs, bachelor parties, etc but I do know for a fact these aren’t just lap dances or watching chicks dance. He has paid for private rooms.

he has a great career (that I supported wholeheartedly), educated etc. He has never had to worry about the kids, household stuff, just work. We have had a good marriage..and probably because I have let **** go. I don’t know if I can go thru another 10 years of this.

In the last 10 years, I don’t believe for a second my husband has not cheated on me, or would have jumped at the chance to cheat on me given an opportunity. I don’t know if he has slept with another woman during our marriage, but I would be lying if I said he wouldn’t.

I literally have no idea what to do. Not one clue. I have forgiven him before, wanting to believe he learned his lesson, he won’t cheat or lie.

The emotional part of me crying and being upset isn’t there anymore. I haven’t cried over this like I have in the past.

My kids are my main priority and I don’t want them to be affected by my lack of trust in their father.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

You know the really ****ty part, is WE are the ones to care about how our decisions affect our children’s lives, the cheater doesn’t seem to give two ****s about what their decisions do to their kids. 
Well, I’m finally of the mind that a great home with only a stable loving mom is better for the children than a turbulent home with a ****ty father, and mother who puts up with his **** and is pretending everything is fine.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

QuietRiot said:


> You know the really ****ty part, is WE are the ones to care about how our decisions affect our children’s lives, the cheater doesn’t seem to give two ****s about what their decisions do to their kids.
> Well, I’m finally of the mind that a great home with only a stable loving mom is better for the children than a turbulent home with a **ty father, and mother who puts up with his ** and is pretending everything is fine.


This is the bottom line. One parent happy home, much, much better than a home with two parents in a dysfunctional, unhappy relationship being shown to kids day after day.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

I am so sorry you are going through this ocean18. Terrible situation for you and your kids. Can I ask what the hesitation or not wanting to leave is about? I am sure your fears are the same as mine but I’m curious.


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

Rob_1 said:


> This is the bottom line. One parent happy home, much, much better than a home with two parents in a dysfunctional, unhappy relationship being shown to kids day after day.


I totally understand what you are saying. I agree. The problem is we had some amazing years. Or so I think..I could be even more clueless than I think.


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

QuietRiot said:


> I am so sorry you are going through this ocean18. Terrible situation for you and your kids. Can I ask what the hesitation or not wanting to leave is about? I am sure your fears are the same as mine but I’m curious.



I think my hesitation is two-fold.
I have seen some families of divorce and it was very hard on the kids with long term issues. We have for the most part had a great marriage, but I could be fooling myself.
I have also seen some couples work through issues much worse, affairs, more lies and are happy and trusting now. I know everyone has a different journey...and I don’t know if I can believe there have not been other instances he has either cheated or borderline....I guess in this case it comes down to the fact that I don’t know when or if I can truly trust him. I mean how many times do I need to forgive him?


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

I’ve had to do a LOT of soul searching and I’ve finally come up with a lot of black and white answers where before I shaded everything in gray to make it more palatable. 
1. Did this person I love dearly betray me? Yes. Thousands of times including every sneak, lie and manipulation of my heart. Maybe millions of times. 
2. would I ever do that to anyone I love let alone the person I took vows with? Never.
3. Do I want to live the rest of my life in a relationship knowing he will never treat me with the respect I have treated him? No. I do not. And even if he became 1000% the man he is and perfect husband and father, (as if that tiger is going to change his stripes) I will never forget his capacity to wound me, his cruelty, and for what? His own pleasure and what he wants. 
4. I will ask you this question as posed to me by my counselor. What are you worth as a person? Write it down. I drew up a 3 page list of what my perfect relationship would look like and how I would be treated. What bucket of ice water that was when I realized I have been getting CRUMBS of what I deserve. I cried for hours when I realized, I wouldn’t wish this relationship on anyone I love and I’d die if my daughter were in this hell that I am. I owe it to every person that loves me and I owe it to my kids to do better. WAY better. And no, I’m not looking for a new man, I’m looking for a new me. And that can’t happen with him in my life. As bad as it hurts, His love ain’t enough.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Ocean18 said:


> My husband and I have been married for 10 years, we have 2 kids.
> ...
> We have had a good marriage..and probably because I have let **** go. I don’t know if I can go thru another 10 years of this.


@Ocean18 , 

I would politely challenge this, and not because there weren't times that were "good." Obviously there were times that were good and there are qualities about this man that are good. But to truly have a good marriage, there would be commitment, fidelity, and trust...and none of those are present in your relationship with your husband. Oh they may be present ON YOUR END, but since they are lacking on his end, they are not present in the relationship. 

Furthermore, he did this to you before and apparently didn't learn from it. Now, it's within the realms of conceivability (kind of like, it is conceivable there is life on other planets), that he didn't experience any consequences the first couple times, so he didn't learn. BUT...and this is a *HUGE *but...it is not your job or "the consequences" job to get him to learn and grow from his mistakes!! He is a grown adult, and if he does something wrong (we all do), it is his responsibility to learn from it and grow to be a better man.

So my thought is this: he has shown you over and over and over again WHO HE IS. He is very consistently an untrustworthy person. He is very consistently incapable of faithfulness. He is very consistently not committed to you and his family. The message is loud and clear! It's my opinion that when someone shows you who they are, you listen to them. This is WHO HE IS. Can you accept him as he is and live with a man who is untrustworthy, unfaithful, and uncommitted?



> ...I literally have no idea what to do. Not one clue. I have forgiven him before, wanting to believe he learned his lesson, he won’t cheat or lie.


See above. I, again, very politely challenge you on this. I believe you DO know what to do, but just lack the courage to do it. I believe in your heart of hearts that you know this is not okay with you. I believe your values are that you want a life partner whor you can trust, who is faithful to you in mind and body, and who is committed to the best for you and your family. That is not who you have. He has been incredibly consistent! So you feel discord because "what you value" and "what you actually have" are not in sync--and thus you feel out of sync with your own self! I believe you want a reliable, honest, loyal, committed, authentic spouse!

Here's the thing. You KNOW this is not okay with you. He cheated on you before you got married, he cheated on you when you were pregnant, he cheated on you two years ago, and he cheated yet again last month. Ma'am, he is a cheater. He does not understand fidelity. And I believe you no that you can not "tolerate" it this time, but you don't have the courage to make that first move. 

I encourage you to accept a couple things: 1) This IS who he is. It's sad, but true. This is how he will stay unless he has about 5 years of counseling AND does the work in between to actually change. 2) You had some good times, but the marriage was not a good one. It was one-sided at best, and not a mutually open and honest relationship. 3) You do know what to do, so gather your strength and take one step today. You don't have to file today...but you could look up the laws in your state and learn more. You could speak to him and just inform him that YOU are not okay, that there is no more US, and that what he did, again, was not okay with you. You could look up lawyers online and just figure out a couple that might work for you...just look. You can take ONE STEP today. And then another step tomorrow. And another. And another...and so on.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Ocean18 said:


> I think my hesitation is two-fold.
> I have seen some families of divorce and it was very hard on the kids with long term issues. We have for the most part had a great marriage, but I could be fooling myself.
> I have also seen some couples work through issues much worse, affairs, more lies and are happy and trusting now. I know everyone has a different journey...and I don’t know if I can believe there have not been other instances he has either cheated or borderline....I guess in this case it comes down to the fact that I don’t know when or if I can truly trust him. I mean how many times do I need to forgive him?


Listen I was going to stay out because you were getting some good gentle advice. 

But, hey, you and I both know you are codependent on your H. If you don't know what that means, google it. 

Here is the thing, you don't really realize it but you are being abused. You are being Niave, or clueless. 

I get it, lots of us have been there. You think you love him, you think you can FIX HIM, YOU CAN HELP HIM... 

I am sorry, you cannot. Further, you are hurting yourself by continuing to try. I have been through this, it does not work. 

What you have done for the last several years is ENABLE him. By you taking care of him, you prevented him from hitting rock bottom and getting help for himself because he wanted to change. 

What you have done is actually HURT HIM. I know you did not want to, try to.... but you did. 

You need to get into therapy, and you need to let him go and move on with your life. 

I really am sorry to be so blunt... Save yourself...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ocean18 said:


> I think my hesitation is two-fold.
> I have seen some families of divorce and it was very hard on the kids with long term issues. We have for the most part had a great marriage, but I could be fooling myself.
> I have also seen some couples work through issues much worse, affairs, more lies and are happy and trusting now. I know everyone has a different journey...and I don’t know if I can believe there have not been other instances he has either cheated or borderline....I guess in this case it comes down to the fact that I don’t know when or if I can truly trust him. I mean how many times do I need to forgive him?


You cant possibly trust a man who lies and lies and even spends vast amounts of money on his his lies. Yes its hard on the children, thats why adultery is so horrible, but in a case like yours the choice is either to a)stay with him knowing that he has no intenton of being faithful and will carry on cheating, or leave him and end the marriage. He clearly isnt going to change or stop what he is doing, and so far you have just stayed with him so he has lost nothing and hasnt had any bad consequences to what he has done. Once he knows you are ending the marriage it will of coruse be all 'tears and repentance and appologies' and saying how much he loves you, dont take any notice, its nonsense and lies to get you to carry on being his poor cheated on wife. After all he is a liar and has proved that many times(that you know of)


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

I wish I had been here theee months ago and got these epic and eye opening nuggets of wisdoms. Dang you guys are good!


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> You cant possibly trust a man who lies and lies and even spends vast amounts of money on his his lies. Yes its hard on the children, thats why adultery is so horrible, but in a case like yours the choice is either to a)stay with him knowing that he has no intenton of being faithful and will carry on cheating, or leave him and end the marriage. He clearly isnt going to change or stop what he is doing, and so far you have just stayed with him so he has lost nothing and hasnt had any bad consequences to what he has done. Once he knows you are ending the marriage it will of coruse be all 'tears and repentance and appologies' and saying how much he loves you, dont take any notice, its nonsense and lies to get you to carry on being his poor cheated on wife. After all he is a liar and has proved that many times(that you know of)





BluesPower said:


> Listen I was going to stay out because you were getting some good gentle advice.
> 
> But, hey, you and I both know you are codependent on your H. If you don't know what that means, google it.
> 
> ...


I know I have enabled his BS. He hasn't lost me, our family is still together, and he apologizes and repeats. that fact is not lost on me.
(and yes i know what codependency means thank you)

I dont think at all that I can change him...i've never had that mentality with any of my previous relationships or with my husband. I've been in therapy since the incident a couple of years ago, separate and as a couple...and I truly thought it was the last time....and thought he heard me and understood... but it was me that realized how much i was hurt and how much his actions took a toll on my emotional and mental health.

I just see my kids...and I get incredibly worried what they will have to endure. I have been able to compartmentalize....I think more than anything else, I worry what they will feel, how they will cope. Yes, kids are resilient, but I have seen first hand, from very close family members, how hard it can be on them. I have tried SO HARD to keep this family together and he keeps adding poison. blows my mind


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

btw thank you all for your comments and thoughts....I am reading them all. I am getting a knot in my stomach doing so but I truly appreciate the time you are taking out to share.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Children see and hear more than their parents think. And they are also great at picking up tension between their parents. They know when things aren’t right and they very often grow up to repeat the same dynamic because that’s ”normal” to them. No one ever wants their children to experience divorce but sometimes it’s necessary. What you’re doing is what a lot of us do and that’s to keep hoping that your husband will change. I did that for decades. Guess what? It never happened.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Ocean18 said:


> My husband and I have been married for 10 years, we have 2 kids.
> 
> I found out (when I was pregnant) 3 years into our marriage my husband (fiancee at the time) has cheated on me 5 months before we got married.
> we worked thru it, or perhaps rather I did because I wanted to for my baby.
> ...


You don't know what to do? Really? Are you sure it's just that it very hard to do what you know you must?


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

sokillme said:


> You don't know what to do? Really? Are you sure it's just that it very hard to do what you know you must?


i dont know. truly. i dont know if its better for me to try to continue working at this for my kids, or better to leave.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Ocean18 said:


> My husband and I have been married for 10 years, we have 2 kids.
> 
> I found out (when I was pregnant) 3 years into our marriage my husband (fiancee at the time) has cheated on me 5 months before we got married.
> we worked thru it, or perhaps rather I did because I wanted to for my baby.
> ...


I don't know what to tell you. I'm sorry someone is treating you that way and hurting you. 
If you stick around you are guaranteed to have that for the rest of your life. 
Why would anyone stay with such a person.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Ocean18 said:


> i dont know. truly. i dont know if its better for me to try to continue working at this for my kids, or better to leave.


Think about what you will be teaching them? You have already said you don't love him and never will again. My parents got divorced when I was 7, it was hard no doubt, but I don't feel like I missed out on much. 

Now I have a friend whose wife's parents were in a loveless marriage, but it was a very good working one. She grew up in an environment where affection was pretty much unheard of, and she modeled that in her own marriage. They are headed for divorce. Her parents did her no favors, and they ended up getting divorced anyway. Better to grow up and be from a broken marriage then to live in one.


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Think about what you will be teaching them? You have already said you don't love him and never will again. My parents got divorced when I was 7, it was hard no doubt, but I don't feel like I missed out on much.
> 
> Now I have a friend whose wife's parents were in a loveless marriage, but it was a very good working one. She grew up in an environment where affection was pretty much unheard of, and she modeled that in her own marriage. They are headed for divorce. Her parents did her no favors, and they ended up getting divorced anyway. Better to grow up and be from a broken marriage then to live in one.


The dilemma I have is this...just like i said before...that I have seen marriages with infidelity issues and now they are better than ever. Of course I only know so much as a friend/cousin....but I also only knew so much regarding the infidelity.
One particular close family friend of my parents....the husband had an affair and cheated on another occasion. When the wife found out she was ready to leave him...they went to therapy...and from what i know it took them a long time to get their marriage back on track. They had two children, who are both grown, married themselves with kids. I am close with one of them...and she is happy, content..

Now i am not saying this is every family. But i have seen both sides...staying together and divorce, and I just don't know what is right for my family.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

How does a person spend 10 grand in a strip club? That's financial infidelity, btw (which you could possibly recoup in a divorce) You need to check your credit report and financials. Just what did your husband say about that? I would hope he'd still be hanging his damn head in shame; but, nope he's back at it and got a DUI which will drive your auto insurance sky high for the next several years. He's such a peach.

How many kids and their ages?


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

Blondilocks said:


> How does a person spend 10 grand in a strip club? That's financial infidelity, btw (which you could possibly recoup in a divorce) You need to check your credit report and financials. Just what did your husband say about that? I would hope he'd still be hanging his damn head in shame; but, nope he's back at it and got a DUI which will drive your auto insurance sky high for the next several years. He's such a peach.
> 
> How many kids and their ages?


he did...he was 'remorseful' at the time...maybe for a few weeks...but I think it was fake. I've been checking our financials since then. If he hadn't gotten the DUI I probably wouldnt have known about the strip club until I checked our credit card statement later on. 
Oh and he spent 10 grand over 3-4 days. Yep, premeditated...went with this buddies that were also at the conference...I guess it was their nightly routine. 
10 and 8 year olds.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Ocean18 said:


> The dilemma I have is this...just like i said before...that I have seen marriages with infidelity issues and now they are better than ever. Of course I only know so much as a friend/cousin....but I also only knew so much regarding the infidelity.
> One particular close family friend of my parents....the husband had an affair and cheated on another occasion. When the wife found out she was ready to leave him...they went to therapy...and from what i know it took them a long time to get their marriage back on track. They had two children, who are both grown, married themselves with kids. I am close with one of them...and she is happy, content..
> 
> Now i am not saying this is every family. But i have seen both sides...staying together and divorce, and I just don't know what is right for my family.


Let me ask you this, before you found out he cheated would you have suspected or did you always think they had a good marriage?

Besides that you got to have something to work with. Look as his behavior, what do you think the chances are?


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Let me ask you this, before you found out he cheated would you have suspected or did you always think they had a good marriage?


The family friends? He was my parents friend...i remember talking to my mom and she said no one thought he was the type to cheat. He seemed like a good husband/father. Just like any family you see...normal fun etc. I do remember when the wife would come to our house and talk to my mom and I didnt know then what it was about.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Ocean18 said:


> The family friends? He was my parents friend...i remember talking to my mom and she said no one thought he was the type to cheat. He seemed like a good husband/father. Just like any family you see...normal fun etc. I do remember when the wife would come to our house and talk to my mom and I didnt know then what it was about.


Right, and now you're sure their marriage is great, when he was able to hide the fact that he was a cheater? It's it just as reasonable to assume they are just really good at putting on a brave face?


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Right, and now you're sure their marriage is great, when he was able to hide the fact that he was a cheater? It's it just as reasonable to assume they are just really good at putting on a brave face?


Well like i said no one knows whats going on behind closed doors.
All I know is that their kids (i am close with the daughter) are happy, married, have kids of their own..I don't look at each couple and assume there is something going on in their relationship. And their parents who I have seen at parties, dinners are still together and seem happy themselves


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

Ocean18 said:


> Well like i said no one knows whats going on behind closed doors.
> All I know is that their kids (i am close with the daughter) are happy, married, have kids of their own..I don't look at each couple and assume there is something going on in their relationship. And their parents who I have seen at parties, dinners are still together and seem happy themselves





sokillme said:


> Right, and now you're sure their marriage is great, when he was able to hide the fact that he was a cheater? It's it just as reasonable to assume they are just really good at putting on a brave face?


I guess what I am saying...I don't think there is one right answer. I am trying to find the right decision for my family. Yesterday I felt like I wanted to work on my marriage...today I am undecided, tomorrow will probably be some other ****ty answer lol


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

I feel like you’re where I was at first, operating on the sparkly cloud of hope instead of judging his actions. What is the line that he needs to cross in order for you to be ok with leaving? If 10k on strippers and a DUI isn’t it, what is?


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

QuietRiot said:


> I feel like you’re where I was at first, operating on the sparkly cloud of hope instead of judging his actions. What is the line that he needs to cross in order for you to be ok with leaving? If 10k on strippers and a DUI isn’t it, what is?


the dui isn’t a deal breaker for me for sure. If it was JUST that I would be incredibly pissed but wouldnt leave after a mistake like that. The money-if he bought a car or something without asking me-again not a huge issue(we share all finances- money has been an issue (knock on wood)

it is the cheating/strip clubs.

question-what do you guys think of strip clubs and where it lies on the spectrum of infidelity? To me, it is cheating if it’s more than dollar bills. Lap dance at most if it was his bachelor party...but it hasn’t been in 13 years!!!


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

"question-what do you guys think of strip clubs and where it lies on the spectrum of infidelity? To me, it is cheating if it’s more than dollar bills. Lap dance at most if it was his bachelor party...but it hasn’t been in 13 years!!! "
so you've answered your own question. It's not for any of US to say what is infidelity for you -- and clearly, this is infidelity to you. THAT is what is important.
Now, YOU need to think about what you want to do about this. Some folks can get past infidelity and work on the marriage (as long as the WS is REALLY ready to do that and not just sorry that he got caught). Some folks, it is an instant deal breaker. Again, nobody here can say what that is/should be for you. There are many here that can tell you their stories and what they did -- which may help guide you, but ultimately it's up to you.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

My friend there is one singular thing in which the success of your whole marriage is based and that is both of your character. Character is what makes people change, to do the hard thing because it's the right thing. To be disciplined enough to work hard. What has he shown you is his character. This doesn't change without lots of very hard work, which means you have to be motivated to do it. Is he?

If he is not then, I'm sorry nothing is going to make your marriage better. This is just the way that it is.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

I didn’t want to go here but, I used to be a bartender at a strip club, and I’ve seen many a thing. I usually don’t tell people because then I get the wink wink, right “bartender” type thing, but really. I was. Lol I don’t know your husband, but he sure seems like the type, the type that blew thousands per night on their entitlement to a fantasy, and banged anything the wind threw in their direction. Sorry. 
Regardless... it is a betrayal to purposefully do ANYTHING you know for a fact would hurt your spouse especially when you’ve had specific issues and discussion surrounding it. That’s all there is to it. He’s already done the strip clubs, he’s done the cheating, and he added a DUI for the blatant disregard of human life- cherry on top. I do believe your line has been crossed, and several times.


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> "question-what do you guys think of strip clubs and where it lies on the spectrum of infidelity? To me, it is cheating if it’s more than dollar bills. Lap dance at most if it was his bachelor party...but it hasn’t been in 13 years!!! "
> so you've answered your own question. It's not for any of US to say what is infidelity for you -- and clearly, this is infidelity to you. THAT is what is important.
> Now, YOU need to think about what you want to do about this. Some folks can get past infidelity and work on the marriage (as long as the WS is REALLY ready to do that and not just sorry that he got caught). Some folks, it is an instant deal breaker. Again, nobody here can say what that is/should be for you. There are many here that can tell you their stories and what they did -- which may help guide you, but ultimately it's up to you.


what if one party feels its cheating and the other see


Hildah said:


> TO be honest, this is so sad,
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, this is so heartbreaking,10 years down the road is no joke, l would say sometimes as a relationship grows old and some men tend to start losing interest or emotionally pull away but we are talking about aman who cheated on you way back before you got married so it seems to me he loves you but he got into a thing he can't willingly on his own take himself out but and by no means is he even aware it's affecting his family but l wouldn't say you give up so fast my sister,in fact l think you will find *this article helpful check it out.*


I never thought I would stay in a relationship if the man I am with cheated on me. I used to think, one time and im out.
That was until I was married with child. My first thought and after 10 years, my only thoughts at this point are my children. Well actually maybe 95% my kids and 5% me. So when I hear how couples stay together because of the kids, I understand, even though it may seem ridiculous to some.

Because this is happening again, I have started to question if things will ever change. Of course I had these same concerns before, but I am at my wits end. I see its a pattern and how he acts apologetic but it is only to end the convo, or not talk about anything in the first place. Oh and my favorite...he will blame me at one point, act like the victim.... its incredulous.

And yes, as I am typing this I can hear myself. I see the reality of the situation. 

I am not scared to be single. I don't have a fear of leaving him and our marriage. But I cannot leave without knowing I tried MY best, even if he has not. For me it is not enough to say, he cheated and lied so im out. For my kids and myself I need to know I tried as much as I could to salvage our family. 

That is why I came on here...to hear different points of views, experiences, thoughts and to see if I am asking the right questions..


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Ocean18 said:


> I dont think at all that I can change him...i've never had that mentality with any of my previous relationships or with my husband. *I've been in therapy since the incident a couple of years ago, separate and as a couple...and I truly thought it was the last time....and thought he heard me and understood*... but it was me that realized how much i was hurt and how much his actions took a toll on my emotional and mental health.


Something you need to realize is that modern marriage counseling is almost entirely predicated on the notion that if people become aware of what hurts their partner that they will understand that hurt and automatically want to change those hurtful behaviors. Which is why there's so much work on communication in MC. It's to make your husband, in this case, aware that his behaviors are hurtful to you.

The reality is that there is no chance, none at all, that your husband was somehow unaware that his behavior would hurt you and did hurt you. If he didn't realize it would hurt you, he wouldn't have hidden it. He hid his behaviors, lied about them, because he DID know they would be hurtful to you. And he didn't want to deal with that. He wanted to do what he pleased and not have to deal with you about it. 

What you may need to work on wrapping your mind around is that your husband absolutely _does_ know that he hurts you. What he does not do, is care enough about you to actually stop doing things he knows will hurt you. 

Given that stark reality, is this someone you want to be modeling marital behaviors for your children? Do you really want them growing up believing that unfaithfulness, lies, rug-sweeping, and deliberate infliction of emotional pain are acceptable behaviors they should expect as part of a normal relationship? Would you want a son to treat his own wife that way? Would you want a daughter to expect and accept those things from her future husband? 

I've been where you are, and I'm so, so, sorry. Only you can decide what's best for you and your children. But don't make that decision without a realistic grasp of what your marriage will be teaching to your children.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

IMO, you have two choices: stay 10 more years and divorce as soon as your youngest graduates or tell your husband to move out unless he goes to as much therapy as you deem necessary, until he 'gets it.' I'm not including the choice of staying for the rest of your life and swallowing his crap because that's a path toward self-hatred and worse. 

The point is, he hasn't had any real consequences. You've proved that he can cry crocodile tears and continue what is almost certainly a pattern because nothing has happened to him. Are you ready to change that?


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

@Ocean18 : gently. it seems to me the more you answer poster's replies, the more of what I see as you making veiled excuses. You need to get to the bottom of what's the best, not just for you because, at this stage is not just your future at stake, but just as importantly, that of your children. Write it down: pros, cons, only you know. Start with taking the fear factor away. No time for fears now, you are at a crossroad which requires all of your strength and valor. Start acting on it. Remember, adult people seldom if ever change, they already are what they will be for the rest of their life (there are exceptions, of course). I say this just in case that your hesitation is because you're in "hopium" of the "what if" he would change.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I would like to add that it cannot get worse than this....

With this dirty coyote, I likely would be wrong.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

He's had ten years to change. If he were going to, he would have by now. Keep beating your head against that brick wall - the only one getting bloody is you.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ocean18 said:


> The dilemma I have is this...just like i said before...that I have seen marriages with infidelity issues and now they are better than ever. Of course I only know so much as a friend/cousin....but I also only knew so much regarding the infidelity.
> One particular close family friend of my parents....the husband had an affair and cheated on another occasion. When the wife found out she was ready to leave him...they went to therapy...and from what i know it took them a long time to get their marriage back on track. They had two children, who are both grown, married themselves with kids. I am close with one of them...and she is happy, content..
> 
> Now i am not saying this is every family. But i have seen both sides...staying together and divorce, and I just don't know what is right for my family.


I think I said this before, but cases such as you mention are ones where the person cheated once and was very sorry. Your husband has cheated many times in different ways. I cant understand how you think its a good idea for you or the children to stay with a liar and a serial cheat. If you do stay then this is your life for good. Lies, deception and no trust.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> How does a person spend 10 grand in a strip club? That's financial infidelity, btw (which you could possibly recoup in a divorce) You need to check your credit report and financials. Just what did your husband say about that? I would hope he'd still be hanging his damn head in shame; but, nope he's back at it and got a DUI which will drive your auto insurance sky high for the next several years. He's such a peach.
> 
> How many kids and their ages?


yes I was wondering that. Its a massive amount of money.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ocean18 said:


> what if one party feels its cheating and the other see
> 
> 
> I never thought I would stay in a relationship if the man I am with cheated on me. I used to think, one time and im out.
> ...


So you dont think that staying with him for 10 years of lies and cheating is enough time? I cant believe that a man who is a liar and a cheat and is completely irresponsible with money and who drink drives is in anyway a good role model for your children? I would want them to spend as much time away from him as possible.

Sadly, I feel you will just stay and he will have no consequnces and in a few years time you will be here again. You are enabling his behaviour by not doing anything about it.


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

Hey all,
I have been reading your messages and they are not lost on me. 

I have, as of this moment in time, not decided what I am going to do. This is the first time I have looked into state laws, separation and divorce. I am not making excuses for him....I have been hurt many times and I am now at the breaking point..and just exhausted at this point and want to make a rational decision not an emotional one. I'll check back some time tomorrow....need to freshen up my mind


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

You asked what we think of strip clubs, when does it cross the line to infidelity, and what do you do if you and your spouse disagree on that "line".

Here's my opinion. Everyone has a different opinion on strip clubs and that's fine. You and your spouse don't even have to agree, but you do have to respect each other. You are NOT being unreasonable, especially with his history of being unfaithful. Your husband needs to respect where your line is, even if he doesn't agree with it. For the record, my wife and I have both cheated to varying degrees. 

A friend of mine is having a bachelor party and two "strippers", offering happy endings, will be there. I immediately told my wife about it, but none of the other wives/GF's know about the strippers because NONE of them would be okay with it. It's supposed to be kept a secret and the guys would all give me **** for telling my wife about it and letting her read our group chat. I told her because I knew she wouldn't be okay with it and I'm not going to do something that she is uncomfortable with, unless I want to come home to divorce papers. I have been close friends with the guy for over 20 years so I want to go, but I also want to respect my wife's boundaries. She didn't want me to go at all, so I offered to go for a walk for the hour or two while the hookers are there and that seems to be agreeable. 

Another one of my friends had a bachelor party, went to bars, and brought girls back. I didn't go to the bars with them, and when they came back with girls I went and sat in my room until the girls left, and I told my wife about it as it was happening. That bought me some trustworthy points for the above, upcoming bachelor party. 

I would rather be the guy who sits out and gets **** from the other guys, than the guy who (further) damages my marriage. What's more important? Keeping your spouse happy, feeling safe, and protecting your marriage, or hanging out in strip clubs and getting some strange? For me it's the former, for your husband... it seems like the latter. That CAN change but your husband has to open his eyes and actually want it to change.

Right now, he doesn't want it to change and he has no reason to. He has it SO easy! He doesn't have to do any work around the house or with the kids, and he doesn't seem to have any consequences for his ****ty behavior. So why would he change? He will never change unless you give him a reason to, and even then, he may not change.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Ocean18 said:


> what if one party feels its cheating and the other see


So, IMO, YOU set the boundaries of what is acceptable for YOU. If HE doesn't think so, then you have not made that boundary clear enough. However, you KNOW that he realizes that this wouldn't fly with you, right? He KNOWS that this isn't acceptable, that you have this boundary, and yet he did it anyway. So, again I think this IS cheating.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

The fact that he spent many thousands of pounds there, shows that it was so much more than just strippers.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

bobert said:


> You asked what we think of strip clubs, when does it cross the line to infidelity, and what do you do if you and your spouse disagree on that "line".
> 
> Here's my opinion. Everyone has a different opinion on strip clubs and that's fine. You and your spouse don't even have to agree, but you do have to respect each other. You are NOT being unreasonable, especially with his history of being unfaithful. Your husband needs to respect where your line is, even if he doesn't agree with it. For the record, my wife and I have both cheated to varying degrees.
> 
> ...


I just don't get why guys act that way, as well as lying to their wives. All the stag nights and hen do's I know of held by people I know of were things like going go karting or quad bike riding and a meal etc


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> The fact that he spent many thousands of pounds there, shows that it was so much more than just strippers.


yup. 100% more than just beer lap dances and dollar bills.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I just don't get why guys act that way, as well as lying to their wives. All the stag nights and hen do's I know of held by people I know of were things like going go karting or quad bike riding and a meal etc


I agree 100%. My bachelor party (a million years ago!) was going to a bar and drinking with my friends -- out in public, lots of shots (bad decision) and the worse thing I had to face in the morning was a REALLY bad hangover. I don't see how bachelor/bachelorette parties with strippers can lead to ANYTHING good. These days, it's both the guys AND the girls lying to their so/spouse. I've been to them, but I don't really enjoy it at ALL. Giving the guy/girl one last "fling" before marriage, well that's just cheating. Period.


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

bobert said:


> You asked what we think of strip clubs, when does it cross the line to infidelity, and what do you do if you and your spouse disagree on that "line".
> 
> Here's my opinion. Everyone has a different opinion on strip clubs and that's fine. You and your spouse don't even have to agree, but you do have to respect each other. You are NOT being unreasonable, especially with his history of being unfaithful. Your husband needs to respect where your line is, even if he doesn't agree with it. For the record, my wife and I have both cheated to varying degrees.
> 
> ...


He is totally aware how I feel about it. This isn't like I'm telling him he couldn't get his masters degree which would uproot our family, I supported him completely. (it sounds crazy that would even be a point....but it happened the other way around in a different manner....too much to go into)
The fact that he knows how I feel about it, how devastated I was years ago when he spent so much money on this crap...he knows 10000% it hurts me. He doesnt think its a big deal and obviously doesnt give a flying f*** what I think.

thank you for your perspective and for sharing.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

jlg07 said:


> I agree 100%. My bachelor party (a million years ago!) was going to a bar and drinking with my friends -- out in public, lots of shots (bad decision) and the worse thing I had to face in the morning was a REALLY bad hangover. I don't see how bachelor/bachelorette parties with strippers can lead to ANYTHING good. These days, it's both the guys AND the girls lying to their so/spouse. I've been to them, but I don't really enjoy it at ALL. Giving the guy/girl one last "fling" before marriage, well that's just cheating. Period.


Especially as most will have been already living together for years so whats the point.? No way I would go to one like that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ocean18 said:


> He is totally aware how I feel about it. This isn't like I'm telling him he couldn't get his masters degree which would uproot our family, I supported him completely. (it sounds crazy that would even be a point....but it happened the other way around in a different manner....too much to go into)
> The fact that he knows how I feel about it, how devastated I was years ago when he spent so much money on this crap...he knows 10000% it hurts me. He doesnt think its a big deal and obviously doesnt give a flying f*** what I think.
> 
> thank you for your perspective and for sharing.


What does he claim that massive amount of money went on? I mean even a very high class prostitute doesnt cost that much surely.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> What does he claim that massive amount of money went on? I mean even a very high class prostitute doesnt cost that much surely.


He was possibly defrauded at a clip joint. A clip joint is a strip club or a sex club where bills for watered down drinks often have extra zeros added and most visitors are too ashamed to report the thefts.


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> I agree 100%. My bachelor party (a million years ago!) was going to a bar and drinking with my friends -- out in public, lots of shots (bad decision) and the worse thing I had to face in the morning was a REALLY bad hangover. I don't see how bachelor/bachelorette parties with strippers can lead to ANYTHING good. These days, it's both the guys AND the girls lying to their so/spouse. I've been to them, but I don't really enjoy it at ALL. Giving the guy/girl one last "fling" before marriage, well that's just cheating. Period.


I went to a bachelorette party awhile back....this was way before I was married. They had male strippers....I found it ridiculous..what a waste of money, but the bride to be had a blast.


MattMatt said:


> He was possibly defrauded at a clip joint. A clip joint is a strip club or a sex club where bills for watered down drinks often have extra zeros added and most visitors are too ashamed to report the thefts.


 As embarrassing as this is to say...he most likely paid for private rooms. And sometimes there are rules, and sometimes anything goes


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> So, IMO, YOU set the boundaries of what is acceptable for YOU. If HE doesn't think so, then you have not made that boundary clear enough. However, you KNOW that he realizes that this wouldn't fly with you, right? He KNOWS that this isn't acceptable, that you have this boundary, and yet he did it anyway. So, again I think this IS cheating.


I made the boundary perfectly clear. Strip clubs are off limits. He knew that before we got married.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Ocean18 said:


> I made the boundary perfectly clear. Strip clubs are off limits. He knew that before we got married.


So what’s up my friend? He took a big dump on your very clear boundary line several times, what’s the indecision about? Are you now going move your very clear boundary out of the way so he doesn’t keep tripping on it? Wait until he kills someone in the next booze induced strip club and driving incident and let the prison time take care of the separation for you? I just want to hug you so hard. You are more lost than I am.


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

QuietRiot said:


> So what’s up my friend? He took a big dump on your very clear boundary line several times, what’s the indecision about? Are you now going move your very clear boundary out of the way so he doesn’t keep tripping on it? Wait until he kills someone in the next booze induced strip club and driving incident and let the prison time take care of the separation for you? I just want to hug you so hard. You are more lost than I am.


I agree. I don’t know how to do this. Please understand I have not talked to anyone about this, other than one friend and one bartender


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Ocean18 said:


> In the last 10 years, I don’t believe for a second my husband has not cheated on me, or would have jumped at the chance to cheat on me given an opportunity. I don’t know if he has slept with another woman during our marriage, but I would be lying if I said he wouldn’t.
> 
> 
> 
> I have forgiven him before, wanting to believe he learned his lesson, he won’t cheat or lie.


These two statements actually contradict each other. 

He has not cheated on you or paid thousands of dollars to sex workers and hooked up with other women while you were pregnant because he was unaware of some piece of information.

There for there is no lesson to learn here. There is not some fact or some key piece of information that if he was informed of that he would stop getting with other women. 

This is a character issue and a part of his being. 

By saying you know that he would jump at the chance to be with another woman - that shows that you are aware of his character and you know who and what he is. 

This is who and what he is. There is no lesson plan here that will help him achieve enlightenment that he should not stick his penis in other women. 

Your options here are simple - you either accept that he is not a faithful person that bonds to one person and keeps his penis out of other women. 

Or you don’t. 

You can’t change him. This is who and what he is.

But you can choose whether you remain with him or not.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Ocean18 said:


> He is totally aware how I feel about it. This isn't like I'm telling him he couldn't get his masters degree which would uproot our family, I supported him completely. (it sounds crazy that would even be a point....but it happened the other way around in a different manner....too much to go into)
> The fact that he knows how I feel about it, how devastated I was years ago when he spent so much money on this crap...he knows 10000% it hurts me. He doesnt think its a big deal and obviously doesnt give a flying f*** what I think.
> 
> thank you for your perspective and for sharing.


AND why is that? We teach our spouses how to treat us. He has clearly shown you who he is and how much he thinks of your emotional pain (nothing) and he continues to because there have been no consequences. This is your choice but this will be you in another 10 years. Your kids maybe grown, possibly ****ed up because they have a father with a ****ty character who treats their mum like crap AND gets away with it. Is this really want you want for the next 10 years of your life? God only knows what diseases he will carry home to you, where his lips and **** have been, sorry for the graphic nature of what I write but there is no way to sugar coat this. He will say sorry, suck you in again till the next time. 10 years of this you will be a shadow of yourself and utterly destroyed, don’t you deserve better? Better a single stable fulfilled mother than a ****ty marriage in a troubled household.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Ocean18 said:


> yup. 100% more than just beer lap dances and dollar bills.


Without going into my life story, I knew a few strippers as friends back when I lived in a townhouse apartment. Nice girls, fun to hang out with, and they totally admitted to "only" making about $200 a night "just dancing" and that all the girls at their clubs would perform sex acts to make "real money".

Currently, I have a couple single friends who patronize strip clubs (otherwise known as the boobie bar) precisely because the majority of the girls do more than dance and flirt. He prefers to meet his sex workers in person to see if they have a good vibe rather than risking hiring a prostitute online or through a service that he really isn't into in person.

So, your husband has been patronizing sex workers. With marital funds. Money that could be going toward college or first cars or....

He is a serial cheater. He was doing it before you married, he's done it since you married, and he'll keep doing it as long as you're married. Someday, when he's old, maybe he'll stop. But, then again, I've known some old guys who still get their groove on.

If you're going to stay married to this "man" I suggest adopting the blind eye approach. You know he's a serial cheater. You can't keep driving yourself insane trying to figure out how to make him not a serial cheater. You have to poop or get off the pot. Fish or cut bait. Either file or turn a blind eye. If you go the blind eye route, please be safe and use condoms when you have sex with him. Also, get tested yearly. Condoms aren't 100%, are frequently used incorrectly when people are intoxicated, and you don't want to catch some funk he brings home.



Ocean18 said:


> The fact that he knows how I feel about it, how devastated I was years ago when he spent so much money on this crap...he knows 10000% it hurts me. He doesnt think its a big deal and obviously doesnt give a flying f*** what I think.


Here's the thing. You stayed. From his point of view, you can't have been_ that_ hurt and upset because you stayed. You can talk and communicate until you're both blue in the face, but actions will always speak louder than words. You stayed. He has no reason to think you were_ really_ that deeply upset and he has no reason not to do it again and again.

If you stay, understand that this is who he is. No amount of therapy or tears will change that.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

You set boundaries with your H, and he broke them. He spent thousands on empty crap that doesn't bring value to anyone. Money that could have gone to your children's college education, or to healthcare, etc. 

He plays above the rules. Which probably means he does other stuff behind your back too.

One violation of the boundary is forgivable. But multiple violations means he just doesn't ****ing care.

This is who you want to spend your life with?


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

Gabriel said:


> You set boundaries with your H, and he broke them. He spent thousands on empty crap that doesn't bring value to anyone. Money that could have gone to your children's college education, or to healthcare, etc.
> 
> He plays above the rules. Which probably means he does other stuff behind your back too.
> 
> ...


 no not at all. 

not that i need validation from anyone. I came on here for opinions, nice and not so nice. experiences good and bad. ultimately it is my decision....and i wont make that lightly..like i said before...i hear everyone. and i appreciate it all. 

I know how it all sounds. and I am 100% aware of how ****ed up it is. I am just trying my best. And i always repeat this, but I really look at my kids and it hurts me even more. To see them so innocent and just full of life....it breaks my heart. I never thought i would be in this position, again but even in the first place. and im just trying to figure **** out. and its hard as ****


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## Ocean18 (Sep 10, 2020)

MJJEAN said:


> Without going into my life story, I knew a few strippers as friends back when I lived in a townhouse apartment. Nice girls, fun to hang out with, and they totally admitted to "only" making about $200 a night "just dancing" and that all the girls at their clubs would perform sex acts to make "real money".
> 
> Currently, I have a couple single friends who patronize strip clubs (otherwise known as the boobie bar) precisely because the majority of the girls do more than dance and flirt. He prefers to meet his sex workers in person to see if they have a good vibe rather than risking hiring a prostitute online or through a service that he really isn't into in person.
> 
> ...


The sad part is, he knows how much it hurt me. but it didnt bother me. I had bad migraines from it. I had to see a doctor to determine it wasnt a ****ing tumor that was causing it. She diagnosed me with a tension headache, obviously caused by stress. He knew. He just doesnt give a ****. and yep. i know. i said it and its obvious. it is all there in black and white.


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