# Is ANY amount of rejection OK in a relationship?



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

This is more of a thought exercise than an actual situational issue, but my query is whether there is ANY amount of actual rejection in a relationship that is OK and truly without ramification. 

I should start with some disclaimers. First off I am not talking about if someone is puking sick or they broke their femur earlier in the day and are in traction or any other acute event that would reasonably preclude any romantic/sexual/erotic/physically affectionate activity. 

I will also add the disclaimer that I am not necessarily talking about full PIV intercourse either but rather one person making a bid for some kind of warm, close, physical contact and affectionate lovins which may include sexual arousal up to and including orgasm or PIV... but not necessarily. 

I'm kind of basing this question off of an analogy that Dr Psych Mom will periodically use in her podcasts. She references if a young child was wanting a hug or a cuddle or wanting some form of physical affection and attention and comfort and if you were to push that child away and tell them that no you do not want to hug or cuddle them, or if you were to tell them that you do not want to hug or cuddle them because they haven't cleaned the garage or trimmed the hedges or help out with the dishes and laundry enough etc etc etc.......... you would be a shtty parent. 

........and realistically, that child would likely develop attachment issues and resentments and it would effect their closeness and bonding with you. 

So to apply this in adult relationships, if one partner is wanting to have some kind of physical closeness and affection and lovins perhaps up to an including some kind of intimate contact,,, is there really any amount of outright rejection that is not going to be a detriment to the connection and relationship???

Is rejection a cancer cell in relationship? Is another rejection an additional cancer cell? Does it grow with each additional rejection? 

Is there any amount of rejection that is actually healthy and constructive? 

Again, I'm not necessarily talking about strictly PIV intercourse but rather anything that could fall under the umbrella of physical affection and intimate contact. And I am not talking about if someone is ACUTELY ill or injured (chronic is a different story) or if there is some situational condition that the average reasonable person in good faith would not think it reasonable time place or situation. 

Does any and all rejection eventually take a toll on a relationship?

And a related question, Does anyone here have some kind of personal no-rejection policy where you will not reject your partner's bid for some love and affection based on principle,,, even if you are not particularly in the mood at that exact moment?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> This is more of a thought exercise than an actual situational issue, but my query is whether there is ANY amount of actual rejection in a relationship that is OK and truly without ramification.


Of course there is an amount of sexual rejection, that is okay and without ramification in a shared sexual relationship.



> I should start with some disclaimers. First off I am not talking about if someone is puking sick or they broke their femur earlier in the day and are in traction or any other acute event that would reasonably preclude any romantic/sexual/erotic/physically affectionate activity.


My wife and I have shared sex on a number of occasions when one or both of us was sick, through seriously injured, receiving cancer treatment etc. That's just how we roll on some occasions, while others may not be up for such things (which is fine by the way).



> I will also add the disclaimer that I am not necessarily talking about full PIV intercourse either but rather one person making a bid for some kind of warm, close, physical contact and affectionate lovins which may include sexual arousal up to and including orgasm or PIV... but not necessarily.


We flirt, kiss and fondle each other very frequently, yet we share a considerable amount of oral sex, penis in anus sex and penis in vagina sex. We also sometimes do standalone play on each other. Say my wife is going to work in the morning, and I've just come out of the shower she will give me some anilingus and suck my **** not to completion since time is short then leave for her day.



> I'm kind of basing this question off of an analogy that Dr Psych Mom will periodically use in her podcasts. She references if a young child was wanting a hug or a cuddle or wanting some form of physical affection and attention and comfort and if you were to push that child away and tell them that no you do not want to hug or cuddle them, or if you were to tell them that you do not want to hug or cuddle them because they haven't cleaned the garage or trimmed the hedges or help out with the dishes and laundry enough etc etc etc.......... you would be a shtty parent.


Imagine how you would feel, if you didn't want to share sex at all in the moment, yet did so anyway because you felt some sort of obligation instead of desire for it. That is a surefire way to make someone feel somewhat violated, even though they consented and to build resentment and diminish ones desire to share sex with ones sexual partner more often.

Seriously consenting to sharing sex when you don't want to share that sex and doing that often, is also a surefire way to wreck a relationship over time as well.



> ........and realistically, that child would likely develop attachment issues and resentments and it would effect their closeness and bonding with you.


Sharing sex is a level of intimacy beyond just hugging, and for the record not all children like being hugged a lot even when very young.



> So to apply this in adult relationships, if one partner is wanting to have some kind of physical closeness and affection and lovins perhaps up to an including some kind of intimate contact,,, is there really any amount of outright rejection that is not going to be a detriment to the connection and relationship???


The amount will vary between people, some people prove through their actions that they are okay with sharing infrequent sex and infrequent sexual intimacy with their nominal sexual partner/s. Whereas some other people have a much shorter rope on what they find acceptable.



> Is rejection a cancer cell in relationship? Is another rejection an additional cancer cell? Does it grow with each additional rejection?


Yes it can be, yet it also can be perfectly fine as well.



> Is there any amount of rejection that is actually healthy and constructive?


Plenty of it can be healthy and constructive. Since sharing sex with someone when one doesn't want to share sex with someone is toxic behaviour. And will harm ones relationship as well.



> Again, I'm not necessarily talking about strictly PIV intercourse but rather anything that could fall under the umbrella of physical affection and intimate contact. And I am not talking about if someone is ACUTELY ill or injured (chronic is a different story) or if there is some situational condition that the average reasonable person in good faith would not think it reasonable time place or situation.


Sometimes I don't feel like it so I say no. Just like my wife sometimes doesn't feel like it so she says no. Which is all perfectly fine since we still share a considerable amount of sex with each other through any given week through each month, then year and through decades as well.

What is important is that when we share sex with each other, it is because we feel like it. Which is far more healthy for our sexual relationship, than sharing sex with each other when we don't feel like it.



> Does any and all rejection eventually take a toll on a relationship?


No. Sure some can, yet that will not always apply to any and all shared sexual relationships.



> And a related question, Does anyone here have some kind of personal no-rejection policy where you will not reject your partner's bid for some love and affection based on principle,,, even if you are not particularly in the mood at that exact moment?


No. Neither my wife nor I will share sex with each other, if we don't feel like sharing sex together at the time. Though we share a considerable amount of frequent sex together, we sometimes turn each other down, and that is perfectly fine for us as well.


***


That answered as an aside, are you and your wife still seldom ever if at all sharing sex with each other? And if that remains the case, are you going to finally start (or have you started) sharing sex with other people, or will you keep sucking up what you're mostly not sharing with each other?


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## so_sweet (10 mo ago)

The other day I was in the kitchen in the midst of cooking dinner and had two pots cooking on the stove and a tray of chicken baking in the oven and all of it was close to being done. Hubby came up behind me and started loving on me, hugging and kissing and stuff. He wanted a bit more and for a moment or two he got it but then I pulled away and said "the food's gonna burn!" and we stopped fooling around and he helped with finishing cooking dinner.

Was that a rejection? I think by definition, it was. But he knows me well and knows that there was absolutely no reason not to continue other than dinner would be ruined. We know and understand each other well and it's not a problem for us if rejection happens every once in awhile.



oldshirt said:


> And a related question, Does anyone here have some kind of personal no-rejection policy where you will not reject your partner's bid for some love and affection based on principle,,, even if you are not particularly in the mood at that exact moment?


I don't have a policy not to reject hubby, but I naturally very seldom reject him. Even if I'm not in the mood at that exact moment, I am in the mood the next moment! LOL. In other words, hubby gets my engine started pretty quick.

The thing is this:
My husband adores me and always has. He treats me very well in every way. I love him to pieces. I naturally want to be intimate with him whenever we have the opportunity. In a nutshell, what happens outside of the bedroom affects what happens inside of the bedroom.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> Imagine how you would feel, if you didn't want to share sex at all in the moment, yet did so anyway because you felt some sort of obligation instead of desire for it. That is a surefire way to make someone feel somewhat violated, even though they consented and to build resentment and diminish ones desire to share sex with ones sexual partner more often.
> 
> Seriously consenting to sharing sex when you don't want to share that sex and doing that often, is also a surefire way to wreck a relationship over time as well.
> 
> Plenty of it can be healthy and constructive. Since sharing sex with someone when one doesn't want to share sex with someone is toxic behaviour. And will harm ones relationship as well.


I want to discuss this first because I think this is a very pervasive line of thinking out there, and I think it is what is often used as the justification for a lot of these people that have basically been in sexless marriages for years. 

The common narative is that if someone does not want to do something, that that will trump all else and that any sort of incursion onto someone not ready, willing and able to drop their drawers right then and there will result in trauma and resentment and anger and lost puppies never being found and returned to their owners. 

No one is is the mood and horny all the time. But are they not in the mood, or do they not want to? If they do not want to, why do they not want to? And the bigger question is do they ever want to? 

Now I realize this is all very nuanced and situational and a huge part is going to be in the eye of the beholder. 

But I think the conceptual question that needs to be asked here is why would someone feel violated and resentful if a supposed loved one was wanting to love and pleasure and connect with them???

Again, there has to be a line of reasonability and if someone is doubled over the toilet puking, that is not the time to be getting all amorous. The one making the bid for affection needs to have some emotional inteligence and reasonableness here for sure. 

But I'm talking big picture and context here. Why is someone with somebody they do not want to be intimate with? And if they do want to be with them and they do love them and desire them and it is a reasonable bid for affections, then why are they rejecting them??

I'm not necessarily talking about moods here. Moods come and go and wax and wane moment by moment. And I am not talking about circumstances that preclude a reasonable assumption that lovins even can occur. 

I'm talking about someone in a supposedly committed, intimate relationship making a reasonable bid for love and affection under reasonable circumstances and being told, "No. I do not want to." 

I'm not talking about being tied up with something and saying now is not a good time but let's shoot for later tonight or tomorrow (and then actually making good on that) And I'm not talking about not being up for swinging from the chandeliers but offering some other form of love and affection instead. 

I am talking about outright rejection and being told no, they do not want to do that. Case closed. 

How long and how often can that occur before damage occurs and erosion of the foundations of the relationship start to occur??? 

And how much are you willing to bet your relationship on how often that can occur before damage starts to occur?


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## lmucamac (5 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> This is more of a thought exercise than an actual situational issue, but my query is whether there is ANY amount of actual rejection in a relationship that is OK and truly without ramification.
> 
> I should start with some disclaimers. First off I am not talking about if someone is puking sick or they broke their femur earlier in the day and are in traction or any other acute event that would reasonably preclude any romantic/sexual/erotic/physically affectionate activity.
> 
> ...


IMO there’s a huge difference between affection and sexual acts. My husband I would never reject each other for a kiss, a hug, hand holding, etc. However, there are many times when one or the other will reject sexual activity.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

so_sweet said:


> The other day I was in the kitchen in the midst of cooking dinner and had two pots cooking on the stove and a tray of chicken baking in the oven and all of it was close to being done. Hubby came up behind me and started loving on me, hugging and kissing and stuff. He wanted a bit more and for a moment or two he got it but then I pulled away and said "the food's gonna burn!" and we stopped fooling around and he helped with finishing cooking dinner.
> 
> Was that a rejection? I think by definition, it was. But he knows me well and knows that there was absolutely no reason not to continue other than dinner would be ruined. We know and understand each other well and it's not a problem for us if rejection happens every once in awhile.


I don't see that as rejection. I see that as your "dance." It was his flirtation and you going along with it for awhile was your signalling your openness to his flirtations. I assume that was simply part of your flirtation and seduction dynamics as a couple. He knew you were not going to let the dinner burn and have sex with him right then and there. He was just stoking your fires a little bit. 

What I am talking about in terms of rejection is he comes up and starts to try to put his arm around you and coming in for a little smooch and you instinctively stiffing up and shoving him away and telling him no you don't want to and maybe even giving him a sharp little reprimand for coming on to you. 

There's a difference between accepting someone's flirtations and bids for some attention but not heading off to the bedroom right then and there vs immediately smacking it down and saying no that you do not want to.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lmucamac said:


> IMO there’s a huge difference between affection and sexual acts. My husband I would never reject each other for a kiss, a hug, hand holding, etc. However, there are many times when one or the other will reject sexual activity.


Reject or decline?

And I am going to challenge your thought process a bit on what is affection and what is a sexual act? Is there really a huge difference? Where does affection stop and sexual activity begin? 

I know I'm getting a little esoteric here but as I said from the beginning, this is a thought exercise. 

So where does affection end and sexual activity begin and is there a difference between rejecting a bid for love and affection and declining to go past a certain point on the spectrum between holding hands and having an oil orgy with a troop of Brazilian circus midgets?


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> This is more of a thought exercise than an actual situational issue, but my query is whether there is ANY amount of actual rejection in a relationship that is OK and truly without ramification.
> 
> I should start with some disclaimers. First off I am not talking about if someone is puking sick or they broke their femur earlier in the day and are in traction or any other acute event that would reasonably preclude any romantic/sexual/erotic/physically affectionate activity.
> 
> ...


I`d say depends.
If a person tries to smother another with too much affection or demands for sex that can become overpowering and even feel suffocating then eventually the other person would be justified in rejecting the advances.
On the other hand if a person rejects another`s affection or sexual needs in a relationship point blank whereas intimacy is placed on ration, then rejection is not justified.
It comes down to striking a balance and a happy medium or like most things can be overdone or underdone.
Another example, my daughter is and has always been a good well behaved child.
Going back to 1994 when she was 5 years old we lived in an apartment complex very closed to my wife`s brother and his wife.
On one afternoon my daughter was playing outside when my BiL (daughters uncle) was walking passed our apartment. My daughter saw him and went to hold his hand. He not knowing I was watching physically hard shoved my daughter away from him.
Since that day I`ve not liked the guy and my daughter now a married adult want`s nothing to do with him.
So there can be different types of rejection that are not justified, which does not involve sex and those in relationships.
As regarding having an oil orgy with a troop of Brazilian circus midgets, I`ve never done that but the thought has occurred to me.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

so_sweet said:


> I don't have a policy not to reject hubby, but I naturally very seldom reject him. Even if I'm not in the mood at that exact moment, I am in the mood the next moment! LOL. In other words, hubby gets my engine started pretty quick.


You're describing a couple real important features here that I think are critical to a healthy, loving relationship. 

One is just being open minded to the possibilities of having some lovins. 

The other is power of responsive desire and recognizing and appreciating the desire and satisfaction when it does occur. 

For me, I don't think I have ever truly rejected a romantic partner's bid for love and affection and I simply do not believe in it. 
That is not just me being a horndog ready, willing and able at a moment's notice, anyone, anywhere, anytime. Not at all, I am just as human as the next person. 

And I am not even saying that I have never declined to go full on PIV intercourse every single time someone has been in the mood. 

What I am saying is I have never told some no, that I do not want to and to get their hands off of me. If I wasn't up for whatever it was they were wanting at the time, I always at least made some kind of counter offer and offered up whatever I was willing and able to give at that time. 

Even before I discovered TAM and read all these horror stories, and even before I discovered Dr Psych Mom a few weeks ago, I did not believe in rejection. As a personal belief and value, I don't believe in telling someone no and pushing them away. 

If I did not want to be intimate with someone and did not want to strive to meet their needs,,,, then I would not want to be with them in the first place.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

gameopoly5 said:


> I`d say depends.
> If a person tries to smother another with too much affection that can become overpowering and even feel suffocating then eventually the other person would be justified in rejecting the advances.


As in all things, it's usually more a matter of degrees than of content. 

If one is talking about lovebombing and neediness and an empty void that just simply can't be filled, then we're talking about some kind of personality disorder or trauma response of some form of dysfunction and maladaption etc. 

And eventually it will come down to if that person's partner wants to remain with them or not and one can even ask the question of how did they even come to be a couple in the first place? 

But read enough threads here and there are people where if their partner wants to make love some time this YEAR, they are being too "needy" and that is all they want and they are putting too much pressure on them. 

So you got some people that are wanting to do it 10 times a day and others that haven't laid a finger on the spouse in well over a year. 

At some point, if you simply don't want to touch and have some lovins with your partner, you probably should not be with them.


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## so_sweet (10 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> You're describing a couple real important features here that I think are critical to a healthy, loving relationship.
> 
> One is just being open minded to the possibilities of having some lovins.
> 
> The other is power of responsive desire and recognizing and appreciating the desire and satisfaction when it does occur.


Hey, thanks, I just do what comes naturally and it works out well. Also, "responsive desire" -- I didn't even realize there was a term for it, I learned something new, thank-you!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

gameopoly5 said:


> I`d say depends.
> .
> Another example, my daughter is and has always been a good well behaved child.
> Going back to 1994 when she was 5 years old we lived in an apartment complex very closed to my wife`s brother and his wife.
> ...


OK this is what Dr Psych Mom talks about and what she uses as an example. 

In your case, your BIL is a shtty uncle. And that probably wasn't the only time he's rejected her bids to be close to him and now she really has no place in her heart for him. 

We experience the same things with adult relationships in adulthood. The same things occur in people's marriages and intimate relationships and then they wonder why those relationships break down. 

We may have grown into adults, but we are still the same people we were as children. Our needs for connection and acceptance and closeness and physical contact and affection do not go away just because we reach adulthood. 

When people are shoved away, they are hurt and damage occurs within that relationship. I think some people really believe that since their partner is an adult, it won't effect them or won't effect their relationship to shove them away when they reach out.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> No one is is the mood and horny all the time. But are they not in the mood, or do they not want to? If they do not want to, why do they not want to? And the bigger question is do they ever want to?


When I say no, it is because I don't want to share sex at that particular time. It is that simple. That doesn't mean I don't ever want to. Which is a very long bow to draw in the wrong direction.



> But I think the conceptual question that needs to be asked here is why would someone feel violated and resentful if a supposed loved one was wanting to love and pleasure and connect with them???


Someone can love someone, yet not want to share sex with them in a particular moment. One thing for sure, I wouldn't feel happy about sharing sex with someone when I don't feel like sharing sex with them in that moment.

And on this, I have shared sex with someone, when I didn't want to share sex with them, and I wish I hadn’t.



> But I'm talking big picture and context here. Why is someone with somebody they do not want to be intimate with? And if they do want to be with them and they do love them and desire them and it is a reasonable bid for affections, then why are they rejecting them??


Why do you presume that rejection of sexual advances is something that will happen every time? Things aren't always on or always off for some people who share sexual relationships with each other.

I share lots of penetrative sex with my wife mostly between 6-8x a week at the moment. Yet I still sometimes say no and my wife still sometimes says no. Since there are times when we don't feel like it, or would rather be doing something else. Given that, I don't think it's a bad thing we sometimes say no to each other.



> I am talking about outright rejection and being told no, they do not want to do that. Case closed.


When I say no, I mean it.

It is not up for negotiation at all, I will only share sex with someone, if I want to share sex with them in that moment and they want the same.



> How long and how often can that occur before damage occurs and erosion of the foundations of the relationship start to occur???


How long is a piece of string? It depends upon the people involved and the relationship they have, some people have a greater threshold, some have a lesser threshold. There is no one size fits all, and no universal line on what is positive and what is negative.



> And how much are you willing to bet your relationship on how often that can occur before damage starts to occur?


I'm doing fine thanks and probably better than many on that score.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> As a personal belief and value, I don't believe in telling someone no and pushing them away.


That's fine for you, yet not everyone is like you and nor should you expect them to be.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> OK this is what Dr Psych Mom talks about and what she uses as an example.
> 
> In your case, your BIL is a shtty uncle. And that probably wasn't the only time he's rejected her bids to be close to him and now she really has no place in her heart for him.
> 
> ...


Agree.
Rejection can come from several directions, if that`s the right term I`m using.
From spouses, those who are in relationships, friends and family members and even when working with coworkers who for whatever reasons don`t like us.
And yes, when rejection does come from those who have been or are close to us it does hurt even as adults.
I in the past have rejected people who I considered were becoming a pain in the tokhes if feeling overwhelmed by them.
The rights and the wrongs there are no simple answers.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

Good subject.

For many years I found my wife's non initiation of sex a form of rejection, on occasion rightly or wrongly I got a "well if I must I suppose so" vibe from her which is a downer.

More than once I just walked away.

I brought it up with her and she denied that was her attitude.

So afaiak rejection comes in many forms.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

tldr; Bottom line is ”spouses shouldn’t reject without cause” and “yes, do reject before having duty <intimacy>”. Substitute ‘sex’ or ‘holding hands’ or ‘hugging’ as needed to get the intimacy picture for this thought exercise.



I think men and women should not reject their spouses _without cause_. The new words “responsive desire” and open to possibility is exactly right. “I don’t feel like it right now” should never be uttered.

For those who connect emotions and intimacy (ie, more than simple biology) then “cause” comes into the picture. If emotions have disruptions in the force (problems in the relationship) then intimacy will suffer. Desire will shrink and enjoyment will fall, distance and loss of connection appear.

I would suggest in those scenarios that one spouse _should_ reject the other. Otherwise it becomes duty <intimacy>, which will lead to bigger problems while the underlying issues remain hidden. Engaging in duty <intimacy> while also seriously working on relationship issues can be ok, but can also complicate things by one spouse having a perception that everything is ok or getting better when it may not be the case.

Having said that, there are also biological drivers that come into play that could override the emotional disruptions. Which only serves to complicate things further.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Well, if I'm a happy mood, I'm always game for cuddles 🤗 Not always sex though 

If I'm mad about something though, please leave me alone and gimme space 😌

But I guess this leads to rejection? Well when the hedgehog has its spines out you don't try to cuddle it duh 🙄


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> (chronic is a different story)


Elaborate? 



oldshirt said:


> Does any and all rejection eventually take a toll on a relationship?


Especially as you detailed in later posts, yes



oldshirt said:


> but my query is whether there is ANY amount of actual rejection in a relationship that is OK and truly without ramification.


No it isn't OK.



oldshirt said:


> Does anyone here have some kind of personal no-rejection policy where you will not reject your partner's bid for some love and affection based on principle


Yes, I never have and never will reject my wife's bid for affection.



oldshirt said:


> I'm not talking about being tied up with something and saying now is not a good time but let's shoot for later tonight or tomorrow (and then actually making good on that) And I'm not talking about not being up for swinging from the chandeliers but offering some other form of love and affection instead.
> 
> I am talking about outright rejection and being told no, they do not want to do that. Case closed.
> 
> How long and how often can that occur before damage occurs and erosion of the foundations of the relationship start to occur???


I think every single time this happens is one more log on the fire burning the relationship to the ground.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> When I say no, it is because I don't want to share sex at that particular time. It is that simple. That doesn't mean I don't ever want to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK I get that things are working well for you two in it's current state. You have an active and consistent sexual dynamic that is meeting both of your needs. And importantly, you each have the confidence that if one or the other isn't up for it on Tuesday, you likely will on Wednesday and that is still within the margin of everyone getting their needs met. So if someone does decline on Tuesday, it ain't no big thing. I get that. 

But what happens if Tuesday stretches into Wednesday and then the following week Tues stretches into Wed and stretches into Thurs and Fri as well......... and for no discernable cause other than, "I don't want to." 

See where I'm going? At what point does it start to erode and chip away at the relationship. 

The answer to that depends on the couple and the individuals involved, some people will have a higher threshold and tolerance than others. 

But my bigger question here is does the old Janis Joblin song apply when she sang - "Take another little piece of my heart..." Is it all cumulative effect where one rejection in isolation may have no real noticable effect but added up over years it crumbles the foundations and the house collapses?

And if one does not know exactly where that point of destabilization occurs, wouldn't behoove them to make mindful effort to not reject at all unless absolutely necessary so as not to unwittingly be causing more damage than you realize, if you don't have to?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

oldshirt said:


> OK I get that things are working well for you two in it's current state. You have an active and consistent sexual dynamic that is meeting both of your needs. And importantly, you each have the confidence that if one or the other isn't up for it on Tuesday, you likely will on Wednesday and that is still within the margin of everyone getting their needs met. So if someone does decline on Tuesday, it ain't no big thing. I get that.
> 
> But what happens if Tuesday stretches into Wednesday and then the following week Tues stretches into Wed and stretches into Thurs and Fri as well......... and for no discernable cause other than, "I don't want to."
> 
> ...


So if you reject them, they resent you but I found if you don't reject them and just suck it up you will resent them over time. Well, what's the solution then?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> And if one does not know exactly where that point of destabilization occurs, wouldn't behoove them to make mindful effort to not reject at all unless absolutely necessary so as not to unwittingly be causing more damage than you realize, if you don't have to?


To use an analogy, I had an old high school biology teacher try to lecture us on the evils of alcohol back in the '70s when teachers could do things like that. 

He said that if you drink enough, you will become an alcoholic and your life will collapse and you will die broken and alone huddled in a cardboard box under a bridge. 

But, you don't know how many drinks it will take before turn into an alcoholic. For some it will be a lot over a period of years, but for some it will just be a few. 

But since you don't really know how many drinks will cross you over that threshold, wouldn't the best practice be to avoid it as much as you possibly can? 

Now alcoholism, like human relationships is much more complex than, but what I am getting at is similar in concept. Does rejection have a cumulative effect over time to where the unneccessary rejection from 10 years ago have a contribution to the break down of the relationship today? 

And if that is true, then wouldn't best practice be to try to have a few rejections as possible?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> So if you reject them, they resent you but I found if you don't reject them and just suck it up you will resent them over time. Well, what's the solution then?


If it happens often enough, you aren't a sustainable match and should go your separate ways.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> So if you reject them, they resent you but I found if you don't reject them and just suck it up you will resent them over time. Well, what's the solution then?


I'll go back to what I said earlier in the thread. If you are with someone that you love and want to be with and are fundamentally attracted to and want to have an intimate relationship with them - then why would you be resentful and embittered if they want to love and pleasure you? 

I'm talking big picture here. If you don't want someone touching you and if them wanting to love and be intimate with you is making you resentful and bitter, then you may have some structural issues in your relationship that need to be addressed or maybe you shouldn't be with that person to begin with. 

So I guess my solution to your question is to address the structural issues on why you do not want to be intimate with them and why is them wanting to be intimate with you causing you resentment. What are they doing or not doing that then wanting love and affection and intimacy with you is causing you resentment and how to fix that. That is one possible solution. 

The other possible solution is if them wanting love/affection/intimacy is causing you resentment,, then maybe you shouldn't be with that person.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> If it happens often enough, you aren't a sustainable match and should go your separate ways.


It took you one sentence to say what took me 4 paragraphs, but yes. 

But I also felt it important to say that if someone is feeling resentment that their partner is wanting to have an affectionate, intimate relationship with them, that seeking counseling/therapy on why that is occuring and what steps can be taken to make it a more compatible and mutually satisfying experience can also be addressed.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> Elaborate?


I think we need to make the distinction between an acute and chronic illness or condition. 

An acute illness or condition or event is having some bad enchiladas and you end up puking/pooping your brains out in the bathroom all night or you fall off a ladder and break your leg that day and now you are in a cast and are stoned out on pain meds and are miserable for awhile. 

Situations like that, it is not reasonable for anyone to expecting any kind of hanky panky for awhile. 

Just like if the house is on fire or a SWAT team is battering in your front door and busting out windows to lob in tear gas, that is probably not the right time to be trying to score. 

But a chronic, ongoing condition is different. Yes, there are some conditions that may make swinging from the chandeliers or actual PIV intercourse no longer practical or even possible. 

But if we are talking about some kind of ongoing, long term condition, then accommodations and adjustments and alternative practices can and should be made. 

Quadroplegics have marital sex lives. Multiple amputees have marital sex lives. Burn victims and cancer patients and people with heart disease and diabetes have sex lives. Certain modifications and accommodations and allowances may have to be made, but a chronic condition does not have to spell and should not automatically spell the certain end to marital intimacy. 

Where there is a will there is a way and people that want to have intimacy despite their condition can and do continue to have marital intimacy and sex lives.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

oldshirt said:


> I'll go back to what I said earlier in the thread. If you are with someone that you love and want to be with and are fundamentally attracted to and want to have an intimate relationship with them - then why would you be resentful and embittered if they want to love and pleasure you?
> 
> I'm talking big picture here. If you don't want someone touching you and if them wanting to love and be intimate with you is making you resentful and bitter, then you may have some structural issues in your relationship that need to be addressed or maybe you shouldn't be with that person to begin with.
> 
> ...


Err, I only not cuddle if we are in a middle of a fight and I'm not feeling it. That's the extent of my rejection.

Hmmm, though I have pushed her away I guess but that was during our biggest fights or breakup.

So I should just fake cuddle, fake kiss and do all that crap?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Err, I only not cuddle if we are in a middle of a fight and I'm not feeling it. That's the extent of my rejection.
> 
> Hmmm, though I have pushed her away I guess but that was during our biggest fights or breakup.
> 
> So I should just fake cuddle, fake kiss and do all that crap?


No. 

And, you ex was extremely UNREASONABLE in her expectations of you in the relationship. 

That makes a difference. 

If she's on your ass because you take more than an hour to reply to a text and even makes RULES about it, if she has unrealistic and unreasonable expectations about the acts of service she demands from you and then freaking compares you unfavorably to other men, that's a bad relationship. 

Your ex was immature, spoiled, and extremely entitled. No you should not fake cuddle when that's going on in the relationship. 

You should terminate the relationship. Which is what you did.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Livvie said:


> No.
> 
> And, you ex was extremely UNREASONABLE in her expectations of you in the relationship.
> 
> ...


Hell she was on my ass about not showing up randomly to pop in to say hi when she doesn't expect it 🤦‍♂️

Bet she got that from TikTok too 😆

Still, all this talk of rejection and resentment so hell how can we win? Solution can't always be to pack bags and go 😅


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Err, I only not cuddle if we are in a middle of a fight and I'm not feeling it. That's the extent of my rejection.
> 
> Hmmm, though I have pushed her away I guess but that was during our biggest fights or breakup.
> 
> So I should just fake cuddle, fake kiss and do all that crap?


The intent of my post was to pose conceptual questions and mental exercise, not address specific situations and certainly not to employ any kind of therapy or situation advice. 

When your dealing with signficant fights and break ups etc, then we're dealing with structural issues within the foundations of a relationship. That's best left up to MCs and therapists etc. 

But I'll go back to what I said before, if you don't like each other and can't get along and things are toxic, then you probably shouldn't be together. 

And it can all turn into one big chicken vs the egg, which came first and did one even influence the other or was it simply never meant to be? Did fights and conflict and hostilities lead to rejections and the pushing away of needs, or did rejections and pushing away lead to empathic ruptures and loss of connections and hostilities and fights etc? 

In the end when people no longer want to be together or can be in the same room together, does it even matter?


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> And a related question, Does anyone here have some kind of personal no-rejection policy where you will not reject your partner's bid for some love and affection based on principle,,, even if you are not particularly in the mood at that exact moment?


I never rejected my husband for fear of ramifications. Emotionally, I was never in the mood, which impacted me physically, but as long as he got his that's all that matter toward the end of our marriage. I chose to fulfill the 'duty' out of fear of being punished more emotionally OR in hopes of his head removing itself from a certain hole in his own body. What I didn't realize is, it really couldn't have been worse, with the exception of being beat. That was the only thing he hadn't done to me. 

Anyway. In the future, I do have hopes another man would not put me in the position I was in that caused any of that. Not that it's ALL a man's job or anything, I'm just saying I hope I have a PARTNER, not a man-child.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Hell she was on my ass about not showing up randomly to pop in to say hi when she doesn't expect it 🤦‍♂️
> 
> Bet she got that from TikTok too 😆
> 
> Still, all this talk of rejection and resentment so hell how can we win? Solution can't always be to pack bags and go 😅


At the risk of threadjacking my own thread, I think much depends on if two people actually want to be together or not and are willing to try to meet the other part way. IMHO MC and therapy etc can help if it is an issue of not meeting each other's needs due to some kind of communication issue that is keeping them from adequately expressing and understanding each other's needs. 

But the bottom line is always going to be whether each wants to or not. If someone just simply no longer wants to be with that person anymore and they just simply can not come together and meet each others needs and being together is causing more angst and problems than being on their own,,,, then yes, I personally believe that packing bags is the solution. 

Some will disagree with me on moral and/or theological/religious grounds, but that's my humble opinion.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Hell she was on my ass about not showing up randomly to pop in to say hi when she doesn't expect it 🤦‍♂️
> 
> Bet she got that from TikTok too 😆
> 
> Still, all this talk of rejection and resentment so hell how can we win? Solution can't always be to pack bags and go 😅


It can and should be the solution. In the dating phase. That's what dating is for, to know if a person is one you can have a healthy happy relationship with. If you don't, don't marry them!!! 

Date someone long enough to know their true, core personality, and ending up with someone you will resent because of how they treat you will be greatly reduced.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

oldshirt said:


> At the risk of threadjacking my own thread, I think much depends on if two people actually want to be together or not and are willing to try to meet the other part way. IMHO MC and therapy etc can help if it is an issue of not meeting each other's needs due to some kind of communication issue that is keeping them from adequately expressing and understanding each other's needs.
> 
> But the bottom line is always going to be whether each wants to or not. If someone just simply no longer wants to be with that person anymore and they just simply can not come together and meet each others needs and being together is causing more angst and problems than being on their own,,,, then yes, I personally believe that packing bags is the solution.
> 
> Some will disagree with me on moral and/or theological/religious grounds, but that's my humble opinion.


Is it not normal for couples to have fights though and reject intimacy until they are in better moods?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> I never rejected my husband for fear of ramifications. Emotionally, I was never in the mood, which impacted me physically, but as long as he got his that's all that matter toward the end of our marriage. I chose to fulfill the 'duty' out of fear of being punished more emotionally OR in hopes of his head removing itself from a certain hole in his own body. What I didn't realize is, it really couldn't have been worse, with the exception of being beat. That was the only thing he hadn't done to me.
> 
> Anyway. In the future, I do have hopes another man would not put me in the position I was in that caused any of that. Not that it's ALL a man's job or anything, I'm just saying I hope I have a PARTNER, not a man-child.


So in other words, it was a relationship based on extortion and duress. If someone has to use emotional extortion and duress to be with someone, they should not be together to begin with. 

I hope you find a compatible and loving and supportive PARTNER as well 💓


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Is it not normal for couples to have fights though and reject intimacy until they are in better moods?


Let's not confuse normal with healthy.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Livvie said:


> It can and should be the solution. In the dating phase. That's what dating is for, to know if a person is one you can have a healthy happy relationship with. If you don't, don't marry them!!!
> 
> Date someone long enough to know their true, core personality, and ending up with someone you will resent because of how they treat you will be greatly reduced.


Yeah but it would be nice if we could fix it and not waste years of our lives not to mention the heartbreaks that don't always lead to recovery. Just a shame really.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Yeah but it would be nice if we could fix it and not waste years of our lives not to mention the heartbreaks that don't always lead to recovery. Just a shame really.


You can't fix someone else's truly ****ed up dysfunctional core personality issues.

I do think people ignore red flags, and that keeps them in relationships and wasting more time than they had to.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Is it not normal for couples to have fights though and reject intimacy until they are in better moods?





oldshirt said:


> Let's not confuse normal with healthy.


Sooo question to ponder - how do we get to the "better mood" stage?? More specifically, how do we reconnect and reestablish warmth and closeness? 

Flip side, what is probably one of the surest and most efficient ways we can ensure that disconnect, resentment, bitterness, hostility continues?? Answer - continue to reject and push them away. 

I will go back to my earlier post where i said I do not believe in rejection on principle and that I have never to knowledge outright rejected a partner's bid for warmth/connection/affection/intimacy/whatever you want to call it. 

This is me personally, I am not a therapist and can not tell anyone else to do, but my experience with fights and conflicts and marital ups and downs has been that as long as I want to remain with my partner and have a reasonably healthy and happy relationship - I will not outright reject a bid for love and affection or some kind of intimate contact. I just won't. 

Conflicts and disagreements and even hostilities will occur from time to time in a relationship. But if I want that special and intimate relationship to continue, then I will not reject that which makes it special and intimate above all others. 

If the day and time comes that I do not want it to be special and intimate, then it is time for that relationship to dissolve. 

We have spooned and cuddled and smooched within hours of some of the most terrible fights we have ever had. Did it resolve the conflict and provided solution?? No, it took months of MC to address and ultimately resolve the actual conflicts. 

But what it did do is say that this conflict is not going to make me reject you or stop loving and being close to you.


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## BootsAndJeans (4 mo ago)

There is rejection in any relationship or other interactions with people. I think in a marriage, continuing rejection would be a problem. This is obviously generalized in nature. 

There are other rejections from a mate, that have no really deep impact, I think.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> You can't fix someone else's truly ****ed up dysfunctional core personality issues.
> 
> I do think people ignore red flags, and that keeps them in relationships and wasting more time than they had to.


Yes. 

No one is saying that people should not break up. 

Truth be known, there should probably be a lot more break ups and divorces etc than what there actually are if people are not compatible together and simply cannot be together happily and healthily anymore. 

The ideal is if people can work together and work collaboratively to address the issues and find ways to meet each others needs so that they can remain in a healthy and happy relationship together,, that would be the ideal. 

But if that just simply cannot fix it and one or both just simply no longer wants to be with the other, then it's usually best to bid ado and move on.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Livvie said:


> You can't fix someone else's truly ****ed up dysfunctional core personality issues.
> 
> I do think people ignore red flags, and that keeps them in relationships and wasting more time than they had to.


Yeah well, love happens and such foolishness leads to the notion that love by itself is enough.



oldshirt said:


> Sooo question to ponder - how do we get to the "better mood" stage?? More specifically, how do we reconnect and reestablish warmth and closeness?
> 
> Flip side, what is probably one of the surest and most efficient ways we can ensure that disconnect, resentment, bitterness, hostility continues?? Answer - continue to reject and push them away.
> 
> ...


Yeah well ex wanted it within the hour for me to suddenly get over it and never respected or had the patience for my insistence of timeouts so 🤷‍♂️

Hence why I mentioned if the porcupine is showing its spines, back away. No more rejection! 

Wait until it calms down and shows you its cute belly again!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BootsAndJeans said:


> There are other rejections from a mate, that have no really deep impact, I think.


My hypothetical question and point to ponder here is whether that assumption is actually true or not. 

And if it is true, how much is truly OK. 

Are relationships kind of like a big Jenga game, and any time we reject our partners bid for lovins, are we removing a piece out of the foundation of the structure? How many pieces do we removed before it falls?

And to continue to use the Jenga analogy, if we take a piece out - can we put another piece back in to keep the structure sound??


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Yeah well, love happens and such foolishness leads to the notion that love by itself is enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't truly know where that line of demarcation is in my own relationship so I most certainly cannot address where it is in someone else's relationship. 

Rejections and declinations are going to happen at times in relationships. But my general working theory here is if people actually want to be together in a healthy, intimate relationship for the long haul, they should probably minimize it as much as they reasonably can.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

oldshirt said:


> I don't truly know where that line of demarcation is in my own relationship so I most certainly cannot address where it is in someone else's relationship.
> 
> Rejections and declinations are going to happen at times in relationships. But my general working theory here is if people actually want to be together in a healthy, intimate relationship for the long haul, they should probably minimize it as much as they reasonably can.


Yeah well, in that I won't disagree, but sometimes to minimise rejection, people do just need some space.


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## BootsAndJeans (4 mo ago)

My wife rejects and has always rejected me touching her butthole. It doesn't bother me......it is her "no go zone". 

She has also rejected my advances when I have made her mad, these are few and far between, and I don't hold resentment. As a man, I tend to not be as emotional and had to learn that things impact her differently. 

I could be smoking mad at her, but if she flashed her boobs at me, it would be game on. Never worked the other way.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Yeah well, in that I won't disagree, but sometimes to minimise rejection, people do just need some space.


I agree, but this is where communication and understanding and even degrees come in. 

If you need an hour out in the woodshed splitting logs to burn off the frustration and get it out of your system, that is one thing. 

But if you can be in the same room with someone and can't look at them or speak to them without being contemptuous and demeaning for a month or two, that is something completely different. 

And if someone understands that all you need is an hour splitting logs in the woodshed and then you'll be back to your chipper and reasonable self, that is different than someone thinking that the moment you get irritated, you are going to order a Uhaul and hit the road. 

If someone has some kind of underlying attachment issues or personality disorder or is just an asshole, then we need to circle back on whether one should be with that person or not.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> This is more of a thought exercise than an actual situational issue, but my query is whether there is ANY amount of actual rejection in a relationship that is OK and truly without ramification.
> 
> I should start with some disclaimers. First off I am not talking about if someone is puking sick or they broke their femur earlier in the day and are in traction or any other acute event that would reasonably preclude any romantic/sexual/erotic/physically affectionate activity.
> 
> ...


My take is that if your spouse won't even offer you any intimacy when you need it, you probably should be looking for another spouse. You're analogy of a child is spot on, if you won't reject your child, then you better for sure not reject your spouse. Your child leaves and starts their own family, your spouse is supposed to be with you for the long haul. I don't believe there are too many spouses that would reject the other unless there's something missing in that relationship.


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## BootsAndJeans (4 mo ago)

Mybabysgotit said:


> My take is that if your spouse won't even offer you any intimacy when you need it, you probably should be looking for another spouse. You're analogy of a child is spot on, if you won't reject your child, then you better for sure not reject your spouse. Your child leaves and starts their own family, your spouse is supposed to be with you for the long haul. I don't believe there are too many spouses that would reject the other unless there's something missing in that relationship.


Indeed. When our daughter went off on her own, we were both kind of lost. A huge amount of our time had been invested in the kids' lives. Suddenly, they were grown and we just kind of looked at each other and said "now what?".

I have never not loved my wife, since probably our second date 40 years ago. However, I have found that I fell in love with her again, several times. Good lord, I am wrapped around her little finger.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

I wonder what the correlation is between rejection and porn use? I am guessing pretty highly correlated. At least that's what all my friends say...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Mybabysgotit said:


> . I don't believe there are too many spouses that would reject the other unless there's something missing in that relationship.


I'm not so sure about that. My concern is that there are a lot of people out there that think it is OK or at least should be OK to reject their partner however much they feel like and that it won't or should not have any ramifications in the relationship. 

I think there are a good number of people that truly think they can reject there partner indefinately and that all will be well.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> OK I get that things are working well for you two in it's current state. You have an active and consistent sexual dynamic that is meeting both of your needs. And importantly, you each have the confidence that if one or the other isn't up for it on Tuesday, you likely will on Wednesday and that is still within the margin of everyone getting their needs met. So if someone does decline on Tuesday, it ain't no big thing. I get that.


Are you sure you get that since you are railing against the idea that it is okay to say no.

Which from my perspective isn't kosher. Since if someone is only doing it out of a sense of dread or obligation then how much is their saying yes healthy consensual behaviour.



> But what happens if Tuesday stretches into Wednesday and then the following week Tues stretches into Wed and stretches into Thurs and Fri as well......... and for no discernable cause other than, "I don't want to."
> 
> See where I'm going? At what point does it start to erode and chip away at the relationship.
> 
> *The answer to that depends on the couple and the individuals involved, some people will have a higher threshold and tolerance than others. *


I already said that.



Personal said:


> How long is a piece of string? It depends upon the people involved and the relationship they have, some people have a greater threshold, some have a lesser threshold. There is no one size fits all, and no universal line on what is positive and what is negative.





oldshirt said:


> But my bigger question here is does the old Janis Joblin song apply when she sang - "Take another little piece of my heart..." Is it all cumulative effect where one rejection in isolation may have no real noticable effect but added up over years it crumbles the foundations and the house collapses?
> 
> And if one does not know exactly where that point of destabilization occurs, wouldn't behoove them to make mindful effort to not reject at all unless absolutely necessary so as not to unwittingly be causing more damage than you realize, if you don't have to?


Fear is not a good driver for a healthy marital relationship. And even if someone never turns their partner down, that cannot guarantee that ones marriage still won't devolve over time either (more on that below).

And though you didn't answer my previous question about your marriage. That you say you have never turned down your wife, and in at least one other discussion in the past you have said your wife doesn't turn you down either. Yet my understanding is that you have mostly given up initiating sex with your wife since you feel she is just dialling it in rather than wanting it. SO despite neither of you turning each other down, which is the approach that you are trying to sell here, it hasn't even worked for you. So why you think it's the best way and ought to be the only way is beyond me?

On the other hand I sometimes turn down my wife and she sometimes turns me down. Yet we still share more sex than most people ever do or ever will have. And that's in the face of menopause, breast cancer, thyroid problems, Covid, redundancy, serious injuries, my being close to death years ago, sharing 10 different addresses through 24 years, having two children together, dealing with a child with an extraordinary mental illness that is likely to kill her in the long run, and we have been extremely close to losing her several times already.



oldshirt said:


> My hypothetical question and point to ponder here is whether that assumption is actually true or not.
> 
> And if it is true, how much is truly OK.


As I said before, how much varies, depending upon who is involved. For some it is more, while for others it is less.

That we are not all the same, shouldn't need rocket surgery to figure that out.

Also to answer the headline question of "Is ANY amount of rejection OK in a relationship?", the answer is yes. And especially because I don't want marriage in the country I live, to go back to marital rape being considered not rape at all.

At the end of the day consent really matters to some of us, and just being married to someone doesn't automatically confer sexual consent to ones spouse in every instance and in every way.

If your spouse doesn't want to share sex with you in any given instance, then they shouldn't have to just to sustain your marriage, I mean really Whiskey Tango Foxtrot???!!!

If someone isn't satisfied by their marital sexual relationship, they can either suck it up (which I think is stupid), or they can address it with their spouse/s and if that doesn't fix it, or they can seek sexual relationships elsewhere (either after separation/divorce or through sharing an open sexual relationship or unethically via sexual infidelity).

My wife is not responsible for my happiness, just as I am not responsible for hers.

Codependency really isn't healthy. Sharing sex when you don't want to, only because you feel obliged to, because your marriage will end or you will be cheated on is also not healthy. Sometimes it really is for the best, that some marriages come to an end.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> This is more of a thought exercise than an actual situational issue, but my query is whether there is ANY amount of actual rejection in a relationship that is OK and truly without ramification.
> 
> I should start with some disclaimers. First off I am not talking about if someone is puking sick or they broke their femur earlier in the day and are in traction or any other acute event that would reasonably preclude any romantic/sexual/erotic/physically affectionate activity.
> 
> ...


I believe that you should only reward good behavior. So I don't even agree that there is never a time when you don't comfort your kid if they have done something heinous. In real life conditions are not conducive for being rewarded with affection all the time.

One kid example I can think of, the little boy's mother gave him his allowance and told him more than once to zip it up in the pocket of his cargo pants. He didn't do it. We went to the mall where he played in a big kind of sandbox for kids. Afterwards he was looking for his money and he had lost it. He threw a huge hissy fit and demanded for his allowance to be replaced by the mother. When she refused he demanded over the phone for the father to agree to replace it. This whole time he's crying hysterically. I don't think that's a time when you give someone affection. The mother pointed out that he didn't listen to her and lost his money and bought all this on himself.


There are many little things that happen in relationships that don't merit someone giving you affection right then. Hopefully by the time you're married, you at least don't have a tantrum hissy fit like the little boy had.

That's not giving affection if you're not feeling affection at the moment so it's just caving into pressure.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

BootsAndJeans said:


> Indeed. When our daughter went off on her own, we were both kind of lost. A huge amount of our time had been invested in the kids' lives. Suddenly, they were grown and we just kind of looked at each other and said "now what?".
> 
> I have never not loved my wife, since probably our second date 40 years ago. However, I have found that I fell in love with her again, several times. Good lord, I am wrapped around her little finger.


That's awesome to hear, love stories like that and happy to see you found what so many others never did or will. That's me and my wife in about 10 years after the little guy is 18. We plan to get an RV, travel around and then travel some more.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> I'm not so sure about that. My concern is that there are a lot of people out there that think it is OK or at least should be OK to reject their partner however much they feel like and that it won't or should not have any ramifications in the relationship.
> 
> I think there are a good number of people that truly think they can reject there partner indefinately and that all will be well.


Sure, often times they reject them sexually, but hugs, kisses, holding hands, tackling each other, wrestling, making funny faces at each other, grabbing each other's privates in the kitchen and public, long kisses not caring if your kids are right there saying "ewww, you guys are soo gross" or "iewww, I saw moms tongue", those are the things that count more than sex. If your spouse is rejecting those things, it's time to find another spouse. If you're not connecting that way, I can tell you there's someone else in this world ready and willing to connect with you.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

My wife will say No to sex in the morning but then apologize for saying No 2-3x throughout the day. Then by the end of the day, she will ask if I want to but by then, the mood is kind of lost after hearing No and all the apologies. Then it feels like she is just going through the motions.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> Are you sure you get that since you are railing against the idea that it is okay to say no.
> 
> Which from my perspective isn't kosher. Since if someone is only doing it out of a sense of dread or obligation then how much is their saying yes healthy consensual behaviour.
> 
> ...


If you are looking at this in terms of consent, then yeah, there is no question that things need to be consensual and voluntary. 

And I'm not talking about anything involving coercion or duress or fear. If someone has to use coercion or fear to have sex, they should not be with that person. 

And if someone will only have sex with their partner because they are coerced or fear some kind of retaliation if they don't,, then they too should probably not be with that person. 

But I'm not talking about consent as that should go without saying. And I'm not talking about threats, fear or coercion. 

I'm asking if over time rejections chip away at the foundations of a marriage and the more rejections that occur over time, the more damage occurs. 

I realize in the real world we are not always going to be able to meet our partner's wants and needs at all times. That's simply life. 

But I'll use the comparrison of what I told my son about physical training. He is training hard and diligently for the upcoming track season this spring and he has been doing well. 

But as always, there are days he just doesn't feel like packing up and heading up to the gym. 

I told him there are always going to be days like that. But there will also be days where he CAN'T get to the gym even if he felt like it and wanted to. There will be days he will miss due to circumstances beyond his control. 

So if he skips Tuesday night's workout because he doesn't feel like it. Then gets sick and misses Wed and Thurs, then that is 3 days that he has missed instead of 2. 

Now one can make the argument that 3 days is not going to hurt him or spell the difference on whether he makes it to state or not and that would probably be true. 

But what if he sloughs off a couple 2 or 3 days a week, then gets sick, then gets injured, then has some important appointment or event he cannot miss and apply this over time?

Do you see what I am getting at? 

What separates the star players on the field vs the benchwarmers vs the spectators in the stands is who puts in the work and who does the reps day in and day out, week after week, month after month, year after year whether they always feel like or want to in that moment or not.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

I would never ever reject my wife. It’s very rarely I get the chance to as she never initiates but that’s a different story.

I get rejected quite often, when she’s sober. So Monday to Thursday I don’t rarely initiate anymore as I was sick of the rejection. She mostly gets in bed those nights and lies on her stomach in her don’t touch me position.

If we have a drink then she very rarely rejects. Frustrating as I’m also fed up of having sex only when a drinks involved, which i think is just weird but she doesn’t seem to think so.

For instance it’s Sunday now, we’re not drinking and her parents are here which she’s been growling at so if I tried to initiate tonight theres no way she’s going to reciprocate. In fact I’m going to try and report back with my findings tomorrow.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

If this woman who calls herself Dr Psych Mom is busy comparing romantic relationships to parental ones then I'd throw her podcast right in the garbage. Good romantic relationships are supposed to be a two way exchange of needs. Not one person just satisfying the other, like a parent to a child.

You see these guys come on here who think coming on to their wife involves hopping in bed and propositioning her, or putting his hand on her in a certain place, and then they get mad or hurt if she rejects him.

But here's the thing. If you're going to marry a woman at least spend enough time beforehand figuring out exactly what genuinely turns her on sexually, so when you're horny if it seems like she's not you can talk to her and act in the way that turns her on before you even get into bed. So it becomes a pleasurable experience for you both, rather than you demanding she pretends and goes through the motions to satisfy you.

And that's why honest rejection is important. It tells one partner that they're not delivering the goods. And as much as that might sting, you need to know that so you can either work on improving your delivery skills or maybe go find someone else who finds what your delivering more palatable.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> This is more of a thought exercise than an actual situational issue, but my query is whether there is ANY amount of actual rejection in a relationship that is OK and truly without ramification.
> 
> I should start with some disclaimers. First off I am not talking about if someone is puking sick or they broke their femur earlier in the day and are in traction or any other acute event that would reasonably preclude any romantic/sexual/erotic/physically affectionate activity.
> 
> ...


This is a really good post and Psych Mom is on target.

Mrs. C and I are almost constantly affectionate. In public we are always touching or giving little kisses, keeping our hands on each other's shoulders, lower backs and arms. In private we are always caressing each other even in just passing and whenever in the same proximity.

I was surprised when we started going to church years ago, when church people remarked (jokingly?) about our displays of affection. I would hold up my left hand and say "It's ok. We have a license." and they couldn't argue with that. 😉 We are obviously still going strong after over three decades while many who made remarks aren't BTW.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

so_sweet said:


> The other day I was in the kitchen in the midst of cooking dinner and had two pots cooking on the stove and a tray of chicken baking in the oven and all of it was close to being done. Hubby came up behind me and started loving on me, hugging and kissing and stuff. He wanted a bit more and for a moment or two he got it but then I pulled away and said "the food's gonna burn!" and we stopped fooling around and he helped with finishing cooking dinner.
> 
> Was that a rejection? I think by definition, it was. But he knows me well and knows that there was absolutely no reason not to continue other than dinner would be ruined. We know and understand each other well and it's not a problem for us if rejection happens every once in awhile.
> 
> ...


Hmm. I don't actually view that as rejection but much more like accepting his affection but not letting the moment get away at the cost of a current goal (not ruining dinner).🙂


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> This is more of a thought exercise than an actual situational issue, but my query is whether there is ANY amount of actual rejection in a relationship that is OK and truly without ramification.
> 
> I should start with some disclaimers. First off I am not talking about if someone is puking sick or they broke their femur earlier in the day and are in traction or any other acute event that would reasonably preclude any romantic/sexual/erotic/physically affectionate activity.
> 
> ...


If there were a dozen midget pornstars, electric cattle prods, and bondage cuffs on a new four poster bed......I'd say a rejection is acceptable 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> If there were a dozen midget pornstars, electric cattle prods, and bondage cuffs on a new four poster bed......I'd say a rejection is acceptable 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


But on a serious note, time to time, irregularly, is reasonable. No one or two are on same page with available time 100% of the time.

Any reasonable adult demanding sex in a known zero chance environment or circumstance for accommodation is a bit off in reasonable thinking.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

so_sweet said:


> The other day I was in the kitchen in the midst of cooking dinner and had two pots cooking on the stove and a tray of chicken baking in the oven and all of it was close to being done. Hubby came up behind me and started loving on me, hugging and kissing and stuff. He wanted a bit more and for a moment or two he got it but then I pulled away and said "the food's gonna burn!" and we stopped fooling around and he helped with finishing cooking dinner.
> 
> Was that a rejection? I think by definition, it was. But he knows me well and knows that there was absolutely no reason not to continue other than dinner would be ruined. We know and understand each other well and it's not a problem for us if rejection happens every once in awhile.
> 
> ...


But I bet you and H got together soon after when timing allowed. 👍👍👍


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I don't think there should ever be a rejection of physical contact and "lovin". That is assuming it is appropriate for the current situation. Kissing and rounding second base isn't appropriate in a church pew. My wife and I never, ever reject this kind of contact and demonstration of affection. I believe any rejection of this kind of interaction from your spouse is a sign of a serious issue. There is no excuse for rejecting expressions of physical affection from your lover. If you aren't interested in this kind of contact from them or don't have the time to reciprocate a hug, handhold, kiss, etc. then you just aren't in love IMO.

Sex is different, but I'm with @BeyondRepair007 on this. There should be no rejection without good cause. "I just don't want to" may be okay once in a blue moon, but that isn't a valid reason for regularly turning down your spouse because in reality you really should want to. Even if you aren't turned on and horny in that very first moment of them initiating, deep down you really should want to have sex with them. Assuming a monogamous marriage, they are the only person you should want to have sex with, so both of you better genuinely want to have sex with the other or something is broken.


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## so_sweet (10 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> I don't see that as rejection. I see that as your "dance." It was his flirtation and you going along with it for awhile was your signalling your openness to his flirtations.





ConanHub said:


> Hmm. I don't actually view that as rejection but much more like accepting his affection but not letting the moment get away at the cost of a current goal (not ruining dinner).🙂


Yep, you guys are right! When I posted I guess I viewed pulling away as rejection - but, nope, you're right!! Thank-you for pointing it out to me.


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## mwise003 (1 mo ago)

I think it depends greatly on what is normal in any given relationship.
My wife and I are affectionate. We still hold hands on the couch after 23yrs. I'd like her to be a little needier, in that I'd like to sit with my arm around her, but comfort is a real thing. Sometimes she will sit on the opposite couch because it allows her to put her weight on the opposite shoulder and still view the TV. This doesn't bother me, because it's not the norm, if that makes sense.
Sex rejection is the same way... if she's been open to my advances most of the time, rejections aren't as noticeable. I do think a reason and possibly a verbal postponement helps. 
"Honey, I've had a long day and need some rest, how about tomorrow?"

I also think that initiation by both parties is very important, at least to me it is. Rejections aren't as big of a deal if she was initiating recently. 

There was a time in our relationship when this wasn't the case. I was denied daily for weeks until she felt guilty enough to be intimate. Almost broke us.... but we are in a good place now.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

mwise003 said:


> I think it depends greatly on what is normal in any given relationship.
> My wife and I are affectionate. We still hold hands on the couch after 23yrs. I'd like her to be a little needier, in that I'd like to sit with my arm around her, but comfort is a real thing. Sometimes she will sit on the opposite couch because it allows her to put her weight on the opposite shoulder and still view the TV. This doesn't bother me, because it's not the norm, if that makes sense.
> Sex rejection is the same way... if she's been open to my advances most of the time, rejections aren't as noticeable. I do think a reason and possibly a verbal postponement helps.
> "Honey, I've had a long day and need some rest, how about tomorrow?"
> ...


How did you get back on track from that period of regular rejections?


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## mwise003 (1 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> How did you get back on track from that period of regular rejections?


It wasn't easy. She was harboring a lot of resentment and anxiety left over from a previous xbf who treated her like **** and cheated on her. Basically, this prevented her from fully committing, even after marriage mind you, to our relationship. Of course, I didn't know this at the time. 

After about 7yrs of sex going from once a week (even in the first year we never had sex more than once a week), to every 10 days, then eventually every 2 weeks, I was done. I tried everything, flowers, romance, more chores, affection, begging, pleading etc....
I finally came across an internet post about the 180. I also read some articles on living in her frame and the go plan is the same as the stay plan.
Basically, you become the best man you can be in all aspects of life. It isn't easy. She either responds or you go. Either way, if you've become this new man, you know longer require her to validate you and you know you have options.

After putting on quite a bit of muscle and losing weight I got a new wardrobe. Every day, even at home, I looked my best, while she sat in PJ's, a ratted t-shirt and her hair a mess.
I stopped checking in, I'd still answer the phone/text if she was worried. "Hey, it's 6 pm, where are you?" text back "Gym", nothing more, nothing less.
I also resumed some old hobbies that got me out of the house once a week.
I took her off the pedestal. I'd ask her what she wanted for dinner, if she said she didn't care, previous me would ask other questions. No more, "what do you want for dinner?" her: "I don't care" immediately go where I want or cook what I want etc... 
I still took her to dinner, I was still nice and affectionate when I wanted to be. If I initiated and was rejected, I just left, went to read, or workout with a kiss on the forehead. 
Always in a good mood despite her rejections and or *****iness. I became outcome-independent. I also stopped cuddling her when I was rejected and came back to bed. That's all she wanted from our relationship, to know she was safe, that I'd never leave, but she refused to give anything in return. So she took away or never really gave something, so I too took away what she wanted, the safety of knowing I'd always be there. I'd still flirt and initiate. I'd still buy her things if I wanted to. Basically I was no longer afraid of her reactions or lack of reactions. I was happy either way. If I disagreed with something, I immediately let her know. I no longer argued with her, I didn't care what she thought of me. I knew I was doing the best I could to be a husband/father/provider etc..

Dishes need to be done, I did them. 
Laundry
Yard
Excelled at my job
whatever....

Eventually, I got the, "is there another woman". Never answered with a straight answer. "One woman? What do you think of me? I have a haram!" with a grin/smirk and kiss on the forehead.
I also got the "You do everything, what value do I bring to your life" and I'd respond something like "Well you've got a nice azz". again playfully with a grin/smirk.

One day she came to me and said something about me finding a better woman. I just replied, "Well, I signed up for monogamy, not celibacy". 

It's hard, it's REALLY hard! 
They say you have to give it 1 month for every year of marriage. You're pulling the rope and you have to wait for it to get tight. (Usually, once you're in good shape) then you have to wait for her to be pulled and eventually work her way to you. If that makes sense. 

Some will say you created this mess, it's your job to fix it. However, in my case, my wife had leftover baggage. Either way, it works, whether you leave or not. But you have to be willing to burn it all down if she's a lost cause.
At some point, you will get the hard line from her. You must hold your position. She doesn't like the new you, why do you always have to work out, why do you have to always look nice even at home etc.. She wants her stable, dependable, doting, and loving doormat back without anything from her in return. 
Eventually, she got jealous, like if I wore a tank top to my son's soccer game.
She started doing more around the house. Out of guilt? I don't know.
Sex started happening more often.
Sex got better. 
She started giving me compliments. She started asking if there was anything I needed from her today etc...

That was about 12 yrs ago. We have a much better marriage now. But I'll warn you, the work NEVER stops. It's hard to maintain.
You want to be the person her friends compare their husbands to and ***** to your wife about how they wish their husbands cooked dinner too or did the dishes etc. 
I've slipped a few times over the years, as with anything, it's about consistency. 

Caution: Don't change everything all at once. It must be a slow and gradual change. You don't want the hard line in the sand to come too quickly. Also, if you've been lacking in areas for many years, it takes a while, and rightly so, for her to be convinced this is the NEW you. Not some New Years' resolution only to fade after a couple of months. Start with the gym, which for me was my temple to work out all my frustrations. 

It's hard to encompass everything in one post. You can search for the stuff I mentioned. Just know, some toxic websites have similar information... stay clear of them or take what works and leave the rest.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

mwise003 said:


> It wasn't easy. She was harboring a lot of resentment and anxiety left over from a previous xbf who treated her like **** and cheated on her. Basically, this prevented her from fully committing, even after marriage mind you, to our relationship. Of course, I didn't know this at the time.
> 
> After about 7yrs of sex going from once a week (even in the first year we never had sex more than once a week), to every 10 days, then eventually every 2 weeks, I was done. I tried everything, flowers, romance, more chores, affection, begging, pleading etc....
> I finally came across an internet post about the 180. I also read some articles on living in her frame and the go plan is the same as the stay plan.
> ...


Awesome story, thanks for sharing. I've been married 32 years and have a great marriage with lots of quality sex. I've done much of what you listed just as a matter of practice, which maybe is why I've never had much of an issue with this. I asked for your story because successful turnarounds aren't all that common around here. It is good to hear from someone that had a positive outcome.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

mwise003 said:


> It wasn't easy. She was harboring a lot of resentment and anxiety left over from a previous xbf who treated her like **** and cheated on her. Basically, this prevented her from fully committing, even after marriage mind you, to our relationship. Of course, I didn't know this at the time.
> 
> After about 7yrs of sex going from once a week (even in the first year we never had sex more than once a week), to every 10 days, then eventually every 2 weeks, I was done. I tried everything, flowers, romance, more chores, affection, begging, pleading etc....
> I finally came across an internet post about the 180. I also read some articles on living in her frame and *the go plan is the same as the stay plan.*
> ...


Awesome post! And it all has to be done without resentment or neediness. 

So yes, stay away from the toxic side of the web.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Here is something I found quite humorous yet stinging of truth. 

*All my spouse thinks about is...*

Talking! I never get a moment’s peace (and quiet)!

My spouse seems to have a one-track mind and I am having a hard time keeping up with my spouse’s constant desire for conversation. 

• We just had a conversation a few days ago. You want another this soon?
• People have been talking to me all day, I just am all talked out.
• I’m just too exhausted/have a headache to talk.
• If you want to have a conversation, just bring it up to me and I might reply. You might have to talk a lot before I feel like talking back. Maybe quote poetry to me to get me in the mood.
• I know I never initiate a conversation but that’s because I am a responsive talker. Once we get into a conversation, I like it. It just never occurs to me to initiate a conversation.
• What? You want to discuss something? Is talking all you ever think about?
• Talking is NOT a Need! I mean, you won’t DIE if you don’t have a conversation!
• I talked a lot with you before we were married because I wanted you to marry me. But now that we are married, I don’t really see the need to talk a lot.
• You want to have a “talking weekend”? You mean multiple conversations each day? And various topics? Hmmm, I don’t know.
• After all these years, we’ve discussed pretty much everything. I’m bored, so you need to find something to discuss that will spice things up. And no, I don’t know what I like to discuss.
• (Alternatively) I’m only comfortable discussing this one topic. Please don’t attempt to discuss any other topic. I know I discussed that OTHER topic with you before we were married but I’m no longer comfortable discussing that topic any more, so please don’t bring it up.
• I know Words of Affirmation are your “love-language” but mine’s really not. Maybe if you brushed up on your Acts of Service (my “love-language”) I’d be more inclined to express myself in yours.
• Perhaps if you just talked to yourself more often, you wouldn’t always want to talk with me. Feel free to “talk one out” if you’re getting all keyed up and I’m busy.
• Just because we don’t have long, intimate conversations any more doesn’t mean you get to have a long, intimate conversations with anyone else!
• Let’s talk quickly since I have a lot to do today.
• No, I’m not going to a counselor! They’ll probably have us talk to each other right in front of them!
• I can’t believe you are leaving me over not having more than 1 conversation per month this past year! There are many couples that are happy and NEVER talk to each other!
• True marital intimacy includes more than just talking you know.
• Look, I need to have all the other things in life completely in balance before I can even think about having a conversation. I’m just wired that way.
• The moment I speak even one word audibly, my spouse is right there wanting to have a full-on conversation.


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