# Musings on Masculinity



## ocotillo

I read articles from time to time on the internet and in print about how societal changes have "Displaced" men by largely eliminating traditional gender roles and gender based expectations. I don't disagree with all of it. The face of the job market has certainly changed drastically in the last 50 years. But much of what I've read strikes me as gratuitous hand-wringing. There are lots of things that must be done in life besides secular employment, and in a husband/wife team, these duties still seem to automatically divide up along the lines of who does and does not naturally want to do them. 

For example, in my house:

When there is a scorpion scuttling across the ceiling, a black widow in the bathtub, etc., who gets to deal with it?

When there are broken roofing tiles that need replacing, who gets to go two stories up the ladder and replace them?

When the main breaker went out over a weekend, who got to pull the electrical meter and replace it?

When our daughter's cat was stuck 35 feet up in a tree, who got to go up and get it down?

When the same damn Eucalyptus tree got so big it needed to be cut down, who go to do it?

When the condenser coils of a roof mounted AC unit need hosing out in spring, who gets to do it?

When a line transformer came down in the backyard during a violent thunderstorm, who had to physically restrain their spouse from running out in the wet grass in their bare feet to save one of the dogs?​
The answer to all those questions is one word: ME.

Don't misunderstand. My wife is not stupid. I'm not the least bit ashamed to say that she's smarter than I am. The point is she doesn't know how to mix fuel for a chain saw, hell, she doesn't even know how to start one, let alone use it safely and even if she did, she's not physically strong enough even at 6'-3". She doesn't know how to rope a medium sized tree and tension it to help it fall in the right direction, She doesn't have an inkling about how to pull an electrical meter and not get killed, she's not overly comfortable with ladders, steep pitched roofs and heights, she doesn't know how to mix insecticide or handle volatile chemicals safely, she doesn't know what household outlets are on which breaker and therefore doesn't know how to balance the load of high wattage appliances, she couldn't sweat a plumbing joint even if her life was at stake and on and on and on.

It's not that she couldn't learn these things if she needed to. Again, she's very, very smart. But why would you learn how to do things you don't particularly enjoy when you're married to someone who does enjoy them and already knows how to do them? I suppose someone could say, "Look Ocotillo. You've lived on the cusp of many of these changes, so they haven't affected you like they've affected young men. Your upbringing was more traditional."

But even when I look around among young men, I'm not seeing it. There are plenty of young men in their late teens busy building more powerful engines for their cars in the garage, building and overclocking PC's, figuring out how to publish a server on a residential connection by using non-standard ports, etc. In short, they're showing the exact same inquisitiveness and desire to manipulate their environment that men have always shown and which serves them in good stead throughout life.

Society changes. That's inevitable. I don't think our basic natures do and therefore do not understand the hand wringing.

Am I missing something here?


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## Deejo

ocotillo said:


> Am I missing something here?


Being comfortable with having gender based roles and expectations in an age where no one wants to have gender based roles and expectations.

Per the TED talk in the other thread, the acknowledgment that young men aren't learning how to be men ... from anyone. Social mores, personal code of conduct, self respect, self restraint.

Why focus on the social and intimate interactions of this world when there is little to no threat to the sense of self when you can become immersed in online worlds or games, and can watch endless videos of other people having the kind of sex that you will never have with the kind of woman that you won't ever interact with.

Life for many, many young men is a simulation. I have a friend with a 22 year old son. Quiet, pleasant, highly socially introverted, but a great kid. His entire 'persona' exists in cyberspace, not in genuine interactions. I really don't see this trend abating at all.

And in an age where women are finding their feet in seeing the world as their oyster, with strong personal realization in school, the workplace, and sexually ... I don't know if the kind of kid my friend's son is, is ever going to be the kind of man that a woman will look upon with respect and want to build a life with ... but they may just hook up in an MMORPG.

Where Have the Good Men Gone? - WSJ


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## 6301

I know what you mean and I'm a guy but a guy can do all this because they learned from a young age about these things. 

Men can do all of what you just mentioned but take one hundred men and have them cook a dinner and see how many know how to operate a stove. Most guys can't cook but by God you buy a new grill and he becomes the next Iron Chef but behind a stove and their running a risk of a three alarm fire.

I have a real good friend that can pretty much do it all, work on cars, carpenter work, plumbing, electrical, computers but put the guy behind a stove and he's a disaster.

The man lived on Rice Chex for most of his single life and he's been single for a long time.


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## Caribbean Man

ocotillo said:


> Society changes. That's inevitable. I don't think our basic natures do and therefore do not understand the hand wringing.
> 
> Am I missing something here?


I didn't understand the hand wringing either until I examined it a little closer and I realized that it is much more than that.

Society changes yes, but I think that what's beneath the the vioces coming out of the manosphere is who or what is behind these changes and a sense that they are being forced to accept something that they're aren't prepared to accept.
It isn't that they don't want to change , because change is inevitable.
But they too, have a voice.

The very same thing happened to women during WWI when for the first time in the West , they entered into the previously male dominated workforce , worked on assembly lines manufacturing the bombs and ammunition that were used in the war , to defeat the enemies.
They played a crucial role in the war.
They proved themselves.
They were no longer prepared to accept roles based on stereotypes defined by men , they fought discrimination and the feminist movement was born.

Ever since , women have been deciding _for themselves_ exactly what role they would play in the new world.

A lotof things were happening around that period, industrial revolution, birth of capitalism , democracy an so forth. Society was rapidly changing and people began to perceive the world differently.
The same thing is happening today, but now men must make the adaptation to the " new roles." The problem I see is not what, but _who_ is defining these " new roles" for men.

If it was wrong for men to define a woman's role in the past, then how can it be right for women to define men's " _new roles_ " in society today?

And I think that is the thinking behind the noises coming out of the manosphere.

19 th century philosopher , Bertrand Russel once said ;
" _All movements go to far_", meaning that the only way any movement can realize it full potential is to push right through the centre point of equilibrium and go to the extreme position ,much like a pendulum.

Given the laws of nature and the forces of gravity, a pendulum usually comes to rest right back at it's centre of oscillation, 
Where it rightfully belongs.


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## ocotillo

Interesting article, Deejo, and it reflects a lament I've heard from my daughters. But the article seems to attribute prolonged male pre-adulthood to such things as the "Knowledge economy" and a labyrinthine labor market rather than disruption of gender roles. At least, that's what I got out of it.

After years and years of such things as "Introduce a girl to engineering" day, male dominated professions are still male dominated. It's not that young ladies can't do these things. They just don't appear to want to in any significant numbers.

Take construction for example. Construction is alive and well in the U.S., especially in the central and southern midwest. Large construction firms are so desperate to find qualified young people (i.e. Young men) with just basic engineering and construction management degrees that they're paying exorbitant signing bonuses and handsome salaries right out of the gate. But shuffling papers for ten hours a day in a dusty construction trailer is apparently not a glamorous enough job anymore and companies are having a very hard time replacing an aging workforce. 

I'm sure this is directly attributable to societal change, but I don't think men have been forced out of this male dominated vocation. They've abandoned it.


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## Deejo

I remember watching a wildlife program years ago. It was about elephants. 

They were taking orphaned elephants whose mothers had been killed by poachers, raising them and trying to reintroduce them back into the wild several years later.

The young bulls that were 'raised' were completely mal-adjusted. They were confrontational, aggressive, poorly socialized and outright dangerous.

When they started raising the orphans in a surrogate herd (rather than strictly human handlers and isolated), with a lead bull, they got to see how an elephant was supposed to behave ... and the problems went away.


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## Philat

Caribbean Man said:


> The same thing is happening today, but now men must make the adaptation to the " new roles." *The problem I see is not what, but who is defining these " new roles" for men.
> 
> If it was wrong for men to define a woman's role in the past, then how can it be right for women to define men's " new roles " in society today?*


I think you hit the head on the nail, CM. And this definition is taking place in schools, where teaching is still ironically a female-dominated profession.


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## happy as a clam

6301 said:


> The man lived on Rice Chex for most of his single life and he's been single for a long time.


THIS made me laugh! :lol:


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## MEM2020

Oct,
Your wife is 6'3" tall? 






ocotillo said:


> I read articles from time to time on the internet and in print about how societal changes have "Displaced" men by largely eliminating traditional gender roles and gender based expectations. I don't disagree with all of it. The face of the job market has certainly changed drastically in the last 50 years. But much of what I've read strikes me as gratuitous hand-wringing. There are lots of things that must be done in life besides secular employment, and in a husband/wife team, these duties still seem to automatically divide up along the lines of who does and does not naturally want to do them.
> 
> For example, in my house:
> 
> When there is a scorpion scuttling across the ceiling, a black widow in the bathtub, etc., who gets to deal with it?
> 
> When there are broken roofing tiles that need replacing, who gets to go two stories up the ladder and replace them?
> 
> When the main breaker went out over a weekend, who got to pull the electrical meter and replace it?
> 
> When our daughter's cat was stuck 35 feet up in a tree, who got to go up and get it down?
> 
> When the same damn Eucalyptus tree got so big it needed to be cut down, who go to do it?
> 
> When the condenser coils of a roof mounted AC unit need hosing out in spring, who gets to do it?
> 
> When a line transformer came down in the backyard during a violent thunderstorm, who had to physically restrain their spouse from running out in the wet grass in their bare feet to save one of the dogs?​
> The answer to all those questions is one word: ME.
> 
> Don't misunderstand. My wife is not stupid. I'm not the least bit ashamed to say that she's smarter than I am. The point is she doesn't know how to mix fuel for a chain saw, hell, she doesn't even know how to start one, let alone use it safely and even if she did, she's not physically strong enough even at 6'-3". She doesn't know how to rope a medium sized tree and tension it to help it fall in the right direction, She doesn't have an inkling about how to pull an electrical meter and not get killed, she's not overly comfortable with ladders, steep pitched roofs and heights, she doesn't know how to mix insecticide or handle volatile chemicals safely, she doesn't know what household outlets are on which breaker and therefore doesn't know how to balance the load of high wattage appliances, she couldn't sweat a plumbing joint even if her life was at stake and on and on and on.
> 
> It's not that she couldn't learn these things if she needed to. Again, she's very, very smart. But why would you learn how to do things you don't particularly enjoy when you're married to someone who does enjoy them and already knows how to do them? I suppose someone could say, "Look Ocotillo. You've lived on the cusp of many of these changes, so they haven't affected you like they've affected young men. Your upbringing was more traditional."
> 
> But even when I look around among young men, I'm not seeing it. There are plenty of young men in their late teens busy building more powerful engines for their cars in the garage, building and overclocking PC's, figuring out how to publish a server on a residential connection by using non-standard ports, etc. In short, they're showing the exact same inquisitiveness and desire to manipulate their environment that men have always shown and which serves them in good stead throughout life.
> 
> Society changes. That's inevitable. I don't think our basic natures do and therefore do not understand the hand wringing.
> 
> Am I missing something here?


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## changedbeliefs

I agree that gender roles should blur somewhat, but due to BOTH sexes seeking to become more capable! My parents were somewhat traditional. My dad taught me the meaning of physical hard work as a kid; getting your hands dirty, sweating. My mom taught me to do things like chores around the house, cleaning, that kind of thing, and also taught me to cook. I took both of those areas further as an adult. I watch a ton of cooking shows and DIY shows, e.g., I can do more than just follow a recipe now, I can create a meal; I can do more than just fix a leaky pipe, I have done whole remodels to bathrooms and kitchens. I don't see anything as "the man's job," I see anything having to do with LIFE as something I should know how to do, and I try to involve my son and daughter is as many of those projects as I can. My wife is usually my partner in crime, too, she's used most of the power tools in the house, lifted heavy stuff, gotten sawdust-covered and sweaty...

What society needs to instill is, we all ought to be capable, in whatever areas it takes for us to live our lives.


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## Racer

My ex-assistant is a 20 something female. Like most her age, she has both male and female friends. The guys I think you’d call Hipster sorts. None have what I’d call ‘career’ jobs… A short order cook at a breakfast place, a waiter for an upscale restraint, one a trust fund kid who designed and patented some scuba regulator thing; for giggles and some cash, he throws parties / shows (weird stuff like live porno mixed with a 80’s rave). All college dropouts. Two of them are roommates, one is her boyfriend. 

I really don’t understand these guys. I get a kick out of two of them; they have those big bushy beards and look like lumberjacks. But they have zero mechanical or technical skills; I almost sense a fear about it. None of them seems to have any ambition or long term thoughts… like how they are rapidly approaching 30 and part time, low income isn’t exactly going to work. And I’ve seen them shrivel up in fear over minor conflict when some other guy test those boundaries. 

They remind me a lot of a friend of the family. He was a Deadhead; followed the Grateful Dead. Free spirit sort. I used to envy him. He’d travel all over the world, camping, hitchhiking, bartering, ski expeditions, etc. It was ‘cool’. It started looking ‘bad’ around 30. He was living on a cot in a landscaper warehouse (his buddy whom he worked with occasionally). Odd jobs here and there; a bum. By 40, he’s barely a step above a vagrant. Now living in a converted tough shed (rents the cabin his parents bought him so he wouldn’t freeze and had a home), showering at the gym, and delivering pizza’s. He was never able to hold onto a girlfriend and hasn’t ever gotten his life together.

So while it seems “cool” to be a bohemian, trying to enter the workforce at 35 and settling down without any real skills or experience I can’t see working out too well. Like the friend of the family. He had those opportunities, but passed so he could continue to live his lifestyle. This girl somewhat fears her boyfriend, whom it’s gotten serious with (the waiter), will propose. She really loves him, enjoys the adventures, but already knows she’ll be supporting him and money is one of her peeves. And she does think about the future. She honestly thinks he’ll be a SAHD and do evening shifts as a waiter and isn’t too thrilled about that. Btw; She a construction manager now for a residential kitchen contractor...


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## ScarletBegonias

Racer said:


> They remind me a lot of a friend of the family. He was a Deadhead; followed the Grateful Dead. Free spirit sort. I used to envy him. He’d travel all over the world, camping, hitchhiking, bartering, ski expeditions, etc. It was ‘cool’. It started looking ‘bad’ around 30. He was living on a cot in a landscaper warehouse (his buddy whom he worked with occasionally). Odd jobs here and there; a bum. By 40, he’s barely a step above a vagrant. Now living in a converted tough shed (rents the cabin his parents bought him so he wouldn’t freeze and had a home), showering at the gym, and delivering pizza’s. He was never able to hold onto a girlfriend and hasn’t ever gotten his life together.


Is he happy?

I know guys like this and they wouldn't trade their "barely a step above a vagrant" lifestyle for anything. If he's happy,who is anyone to judge him for that? 

Some men who have great careers,lots of money,great kids,and great wives are often found to be taking antidepressants. They're seeing therapists trying to figure out why they aren't happy with their fantastic "perfect" life. 

Now,if he's living a life he's not happy with then he should take the steps to make some changes.


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## ocotillo

MEM11363 said:


> Oct,
> Your wife is 6'3" tall?


Yes. --Hell at volleyball when she was younger.


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## ocotillo

Racer said:


> None of them seems to have any ambition or long term thoughts… like how they are rapidly approaching 30 and part time, low income isn’t exactly going to work.


I know my brother has been so frustrated with his son's lack of ambition that he could spit. And the boy is extremely gifted mechanically. He could easily be an aviation mechanic with a little bit of schooling and a dash of ambition.

It's almost like the boy has gotten the message somehow that working in an office = good while manual labor = bad.


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## Racer

ScarletBegonias said:


> Is he happy?.


Now... I really don't think so. He probably feels like a loser. He's a 45 year old pizza delivery boy. Knees are shot from all the skiing, but no insurance. No more Grateful Dead. No purpose. Lives in a shed with his dog and it's also highly likely he has a drug problem. I've heard stories from his brother and dad that he's disappeared for days and can't recall where he's been. His brother owns a McMansion at a nearby resort with a caretaker suite; he can't trust his own brother to watch that house. The brother is the total opposite; tailored suit, 7 figures, self-made man.

He was happy... 20-30. I mean he was there when the Berlin Wall came down. He's been to Cape Horn. He and buddy drove and camped their way across South America. For awhile, he was one of those 'extreme' skiing guides... helicoptering into remote areas. So he has the memories.......... but lives in a shed with nothing but those memories and no one to share them with; no kids, no wife, no prospects. He looks worn and beat-up like a 'almost vagrant'. I've got a feeling though he's one of those 'local characters' that other locals buy a beer and listen to his tales.


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## Deejo

ocotillo said:


> Society changes. That's inevitable. I don't think our basic natures do and therefore do not understand the hand wringing.


We're talking about a fundamental ground-shift. Most of the arguing done here, is notably ... not by a demographic that is part of the ground-shift.

And for the most part, men aren't the ones doing the hand wringing.

The MRA and MGTOW in western culture are undoubtedly parts of this, regardless of how dismissive some may be of it, myself included. I don't care to be part of a movement. I don't fit the MGTOW model cuz I like me the ladies just fine ... but I have no intention of remarrying. But it speaks to the fact, that movement or no, there is now an inverse shift in terms of how men perceive and regard themselves and how women actually would prefer men to be.

Machiavelli always gets raked over the coals for his 80% of women want 20% of men. Well ... that is simply becoming more and more evident.

If a smaller pool of dudes want to get married and have families, then they have a much larger pool of women to choose from and be selective about.

I believe this is particularly the case in places like China, where women are seen as spinsters if they haven't been married off by age 25 ... and it isn't men perpetuating that notion.

With regard to looking into masculinity, I came across this as a cultural phenomenon:
Herbivore men - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And to think about all the flak and eye rolling we get for talking about the concepts of Alpha, Beta, Pickup Artist, or Average Frustrated Chump. Well guess what? We aren't the only ones.

From carnivores to herbivores: how men are defined in Japan ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion


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## minimalME

ocotillo said:


> But the article seems to attribute prolonged male pre-adulthood to such things as the "Knowledge economy" and a labyrinthine labor market rather than disruption of gender roles.


I agree that prolonged immaturity is part of the problem, and I'm living it right now with my two older children who're in their early 20s.

A couple of months ago, my eldest daughter and I were talking with a counselor of sorts, and this woman encouraged my daughter to get a job during the summer for 'play money'. My daughter is 21.

But this is a prevalent mindset about young adults and jobs - that the money they earn is to be used to entertain themselves, as opposed to contributing to their expenses.

With my son, after he graduated from high school, he chose not to go to college, and had little motivation to do anything else.

It got to the point where we gave him an ultimatum:

1. Gap year - volunteer and work anywhere in the world.
2. Go to college.
3. Move out and take care of yourself.

He chose #3. That was three years ago, and I thought he'd finally found a sense of direction when he asked for financial help with a trade school in his area. This school isn't a 2 or 4 year accredited institution, so it didn't qualify for payments under our educational plans. Instead, I cashed out his 529 account and simply gave him the money - and I discussed the use of it with him before it was sent. He chose to ignore our conversation, and he spend it on everything except it's intended purpose. 

Although I think it's right and good that young children are no longer used for slave labor in mines and factories (at least in the US), we've gone in the polar opposite direction in the name of 'having a childhood'.

I've read in other threads about college costs being a required parental expense, and now the age of health insurance benefits on a parent's plan has been extended.

I think society as a whole is doing our children and future generations a great disservice by consistently communicating that they have no real responsibilities until they graduate from college. And I think it's going to get a lot worse before anything changes.


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## Racer

More thoughts on this. Another blogger I’ve read talks about masculinity. It’s really an acceptance thing by other men. Most cultures have had a ‘right of passage’ for men. Those ‘rights of passage’ normally reflect the environment. So in a warring culture, it’s probably some trial by fire thing. In a non-threatened tribal area, it might be marriage, or some hardship, or even carving a pretty stick to burn in symbology of this transformation. Industrial societies sort of changed it. But you still see it as it defines the male hierarchy… The star quarterback, the guy all the girls go gaga over, etc. PUA’s have even bastardized it like the Alpha stuff and notches on their shaft. It sets up different acceptances of what the ‘ideal male’ is.

What are changing are those thoughts of ‘ideal male’ as judged by other males. But I wonder if that is also a partial result of the dismal economy?

So, if you accept its men judging other men and the right of passage to become a man is a reflection of the environment, then it makes more sense. They watched their fathers, peers, recent graduates all fail at that dream. Laid-off, tough times. They simply observe, see the traditional ways not ‘ideal’ and breaking/wrecking men left and right. So the traditional notion is chucked. And what’s left?

The follow your dreams and the happy trail. Even these disenfranchised older men, who worked hard, and watched their jobs and savings disappear (or friends and family) can respect the young man tossing it away to pursue that dream; It’s something they wanted to do, but played it safe. Look where it got them… So if you can get away with it, do it. Thing is, when you are 20, what you are willing to accept as your minimum standard is quite different. I could sleep on a floor and live off ramen.

My fear is the long-term. The ideal man seems to be the entrepreneur who’s a free spirit and has adventures. It’s an image… what it isn’t is a moral or ethical code. It’s an incomplete movie character where miraculous things happen and money grows on trees (just wasn’t relevant to the plot). It’s a sound bite rather than a dissertation. That’s my fear. A bunch of lumberjack looking waiters who can’t cut down a tree, sharpen an axe and actually think because a battery isn’t under the hood, her car doesn’t have one… They look the part, but just can’t be bothered with doing and learning because it’s not their ‘happy thing’. So they skateboard, can make a bong out of anything, talk a good game and know the glitches in COD. They are enjoying their lives… but are they preparing for any part of surviving life? Or are they going to end up living out of tough shed and delivering pizzas?


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## Jetranger

What about a guy who has his life together. He has his own place, pays his own bills, cooks his own food and does his own laundry. Is this self sufficiency 'masculine'?

Technically, he doesn't need anything else apart from a companion, and that's if he wants one (at risk of losing the independence he's built for himself).


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## minimalME

testpilot21 said:


> What about a guy who has his life together. He has his own place, pays his own bills, cooks his own food and does his own laundry. Is this self sufficiency 'masculine'?
> 
> Technically, he doesn't need anything else apart from a companion, and that's if he wants one (at risk of losing the independence he's built for himself).


This would be my boyfriend, and yes, I consider him very masculine - and mature.


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## Deejo

testpilot21 said:


> What about a guy who has his life together. He has his own place, pays his own bills, cooks his own food and does his own laundry. Is this self sufficiency 'masculine'?
> 
> Technically, he doesn't need anything else apart from a companion, and that's if he wants one (at risk of losing the independence he's built for himself).


Negative.

I see what you referred to as 'life skills'.

Although it probably makes you look like a great potential provider, partner, and father to children.

I think what is masculine is more nuanced. Not saying there is a distinctly right or wrong answer, but we know it when we see it.

Hunting ... masculine

Words with Friends ... not masculine (doesn't mean it's effeminate either)

American Football ... masculine

Badminton ... not masculine (Although saying shuttlec0ck is kind of cool)

Lifting weights ... masculine

Zumba ... not masculine

Chuck Norris ... masculine

Sheldon from Big Bang ... not masculine


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## minimalME

Although I agree with Deejo's list, my ex-husband participated in activities considered _by other men_ to be 'masculine', yet by the end of our marriage, he wasn't masculine to me at all.


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## Racer

minimalME said:


> This would be my boyfriend, and yes, I consider him very masculine - and mature.


And it gets into a semi-revolving argument. My opinion: Men define men. They are the guys we want to be and idolize. The one we might want to follow or emulate. Bromance stuff. Women (no offense), marry and have relationships with men… You are biased toward the kind of man you are attracted to and want whether that’s marriage, a friendship, or a boy toy. Whatever you are seeking tends to become what you think a man should be. 

Imagine if you will Men defining Women…. You’d be hot, have huge hooters, etc. as well as a million other scrambled things situational like a dirty girl in bed, and righteously pure in other situations. Yet I bet you know a real woman when you see her. A woman you want to be.

Doesn’t mean women are out of the picture though. Plenty of men have done really masculine (and dumb) things in the pursuit of impressing woman that other men take note of. Ditto with reverse and women doing things to get the attention of a man.


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## ocotillo

In keeping with Racer's observation about men defining other men, I would say my idea of a "Man's man" would be my late FIL.

Six foot eight. An officer in SAC at the height of the cold war. He was a gifted pilot, good with animals, loved his family, and treated me like his own son.

At the time, launch codes were not entrusted to weaklings or fools. (I hope to hell they're still not.) This man had all kinds of specialized training.


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## always_alone

Deejo said:


> Machiavelli always gets raked over the coals for his 80% of women want 20% of men. Well ... that is simply becoming more and more evident.
> 
> If a smaller pool of dudes want to get married and have families, then they have a much larger pool of women to choose from and be selective about.
> 
> I believe this is particularly the case in places like China, where women are seen as spinsters if they haven't been married off by age 25 ... and it isn't men perpetuating that notion.


Excuse the interruption, but I just have to say that some 80% of men get married which completely belies this notion. And in China, thanks to a long-standing one child policy that led to the slaughter of thousands of girls, women are rare and coveted, and have a *lot* of choice.


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## treyvion

always_alone said:


> Excuse the interruption, but I just have to say that some 80% of men get married which completely belies this notion. And in China, thanks to a long-standing one child policy that led to the slaughter of thousands of girls, women are rare and coveted, and have a *lot* of choice.


Thing about it is many of the 20% of men who get to have sex are having sex with the married and near sexless men's 80% wives and gf's. 

So these husbands are literally taking care of someone elses gf...


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## always_alone

treyvion said:


> Thing about it is many of the 20% who get to have sex are having sex with the 80% wives and gf's. So they are literally taking care of someone elses gf...


Oh my! Well if 80% of you are getting married without ever having sex with the 80% of your wives and gfs, then y'all have bigger problems than I ever could've imagined.

I'll leave you, then, to sort that out.


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## Trickster

always_alone said:


> Excuse the interruption, but I just have to say that some 80% of men get married which completely belies this notion. And in China, thanks to a long-standing one child policy that led to the slaughter of thousands of girls, women are rare and coveted, and have a *lot* of choice.


So I guess that would mean that most men in China may not even have a choice in a mate no matter what, In China or even in the U.S. So they choose a lifestyle to validate and show they aren't looking for a mate. 

I have an aquantence who is very wealthy... He works in finance. He works long hours, travels for work all the time, he is athletic, He runs, swims, plays tennis, and knows how to scuba dive. 

Never married, no kids, no gf, i dont think he has had a gf in the 12 years that i have known him. He says he is too busy to have a gf or a wife. He is 50 now. He has enough money to retire several times over and move to Jamaca. He chooses to work long hours. He may have an escort, but doesn't seem likely.

Does he work to avoid relationships or does he not have relationships because he is too busy? It seems easier to tell people he works too many hours and wouldn't be fair for a woman or a family because of his work schedule.

Too much of anything is not a good thing. Too much masculinity may not always be a good thing either... Like anything, a balance is needed.


----------



## Duguesclin

always_alone said:


> Excuse the interruption, but I just have to say that some 80% of men get married which completely belies this notion. And in China, thanks to a long-standing one child policy that led to the slaughter of thousands of girls, women are rare and coveted, and have a *lot* of choice.


In China, women have their choices quickly restricted because the guy has to have enough money to pay for an apartment. 

So, it is becoming super expensive to have boys in China and I have many colleagues who are now very happy to have girls.

Smart girls have a hard time to get married because a typical Chinese man will marry "down". In other word he will marry a girl with less education.


----------



## Deejo

always_alone said:


> Excuse the interruption, but I just have to say that some 80% of men get married which completely belies this notion. And in China, thanks to a long-standing one child policy that led to the slaughter of thousands of girls, women are rare and coveted, and have a *lot* of choice.


Sure ... we're just making all this up as we go along. You understand ...

As for your China comment? We obviously read different information.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/18/world/asia/on-china-single-women-leta-hong-fincher/index.html


----------



## Trickster

The security risks of Chinaâ€™s abnormal demographics - The Washington Post

We can all find links on the internet to validate our thinking on anything. Personally, I would not want to Be in a country where there are so few women compared to men...

What is sad is that in a country with so many single men, many women choose to stay single. What's wrong with the men there?


----------



## Caribbean Man

I live in a small country where the ratio of women to men is more than 2:1.

The workforce is mostly women , it is normal to see women occupy some leadership positions, and the gender bickering / fighting is basically non existent.

Men have continued to dominate in traditional male roles of leadership , entrepreneurship , engineering , finance and business. 
Women are beginning to dominate in management , social sciences , arts , and politics .
So even though the demographics have shifted , the pattern amongst the male have remained the same over the last 30 years. 
The pattern among the female have changed though , for better.
Traditional roles in marriage have remained the same , the only difference is that younger women and men have access to better paying jobs than their fore parents .

I suspect that the dialogue between the genders has not been acrimonious because there is a certain level of economic activity in our society that allows equal opportunity to everyone.

The same type of symbiosis exist between the different races , in spite of the fact we are very multi racial and multi cultural / religious.


----------



## treyvion

Caribbean Man said:


> I live in a small country where the ratio of women to men is more than 2:1.


You said you live in Jamaica? That's a great female to male ratio...




Caribbean Man said:


> The workforce is mostly women , it is normal to see women occupy some leadership positions, and the gender bickering / fighting is basically non existent.
> 
> Men have continued to dominate in traditional male roles of leadership , entrepreneurship , engineering , finance and business.
> Women are beginning to dominate in management , social sciences , arts , and politics .


Perhaps a role reversal where a masculine man is truly a house husband and also resonsible for being similar to a stepford wife ( stepford husband ). And the wife is excited to work hard and bring home lots of bacon. 



Caribbean Man said:


> So even though the demographics have shifted , the pattern amongst the male have remained the same over the last 30 years.
> The pattern among the female have changed though , for better.
> Traditional roles in marriage have remained the same , the only difference is that younger women and men have access to better paying jobs than their fore parents .


This inspires hope.



Caribbean Man said:


> I suspect that the dialogue between the genders has not been acrimonious because there is a certain level of economic activity in our society that allows equal opportunity to everyone.
> 
> The same type of symbiosis exist between the different races , in spite of the fact we are very multi racial and multi cultural / religious.


Wow. Do women tend to take care of themself there? Appear well? How do they treat their men?


----------



## jld

Trickster said:


> What is sad is that in a country with so many single men, many women choose to stay single. What's wrong with the men there?


Well, in Deejo's article, it said that young women have grown up with fathers who hit their mothers, and the mothers did not legal recourse to any kind of protection. And apparently the men have lots of affairs, too.

As women get more education, and therefore, money, they are realizing they do not have to accept the lives their mothers had.

The article said that, in China, marriage basically benefits men.


----------



## ocotillo

Interesting comments.

There was a humorous columnist that I found especially entertaining years ago named Judith Viorst. The comedic element of her stories often centered around the sheer destructiveness of her three boys, who she affectionately referred to as her "Wrecking crew."

Her stories rang true for me at the time and they still do now. There are always exceptions to the "Rule" but *generally*, little girls don't write their initials in urine on clean bath towels and wouldn't even if they could. They're not the ones with a maniacal fascination with fire. And ballistics. And internal combustion. They're not the ones putting praying mantis and black widows together in the same jar for fights to the death. Here where I live, it's little boys who have to have the color sequence, Red, Yellow, Black, Yellow drilled into their heads, because forbidding them to catch snakes entirely is a lost cause. (Not that little girls shouldn't learn to recognize a coral snake too.) 

Why does it typically fall upon the man to deal with creepy and/or dangerous insects, spiders and reptiles in the house? I would say it's because many of us went through a phase as little boys where we actively liked them and would even keep them as pets if our parents would let us. 

Why does it typically fall upon the man to go up on the roof of the house when minor (Or even major) repairs are needed? I would say it's because many of us when through a phase as little boys where we were fascinated with heights and would have climbed the city water tower or something else equally dangerous if given half a chance.

It was this sort of thing I had in mind when I said I haven't seen basic natures between boys and girls, men and women really changing that much. I've read articles basically lamenting the fact that little boys aren't allowed to be little boys anymore, but would offer as a counter observation that it's damn near impossible to stop them.


----------



## ScrambledEggs

Our understanding of neuroscience is growing about as fast as computer technology but its not been well understood by the masses. We now know pretty conclusivly that gender brain differences, at least in most competencies are bunk. 

For example, While we can do brain scans and show that the neural pathways that support math are more developed in men we now also know that neuroplacisity is a major factor and that men are better at math because they are expected to be. Women in fields that use a lot of math tend to have the same pathways. 

I am uncomfortable putting a lot of stock in natural gender based competencies because of this. Our culture, while providing a framework for the nuclear family is also limiting the potential of individuals - both male and female.

For myself, I have always enjoyed working with my hands and on technical problems except working on my car in high school was so frustrating it was a nearly a traumatic cycle for me. I had no help, no skills, no knowledge,wrong tools, and no money, but the need to keep my car going to get to my school. I'd spend days under the car with crap falling into my eyes, banging my knuckles and head and trying to figure it all out. I always did but at such cost in time and effort, I felt more defeated by it than anything. I once missed a week a school because of it. To this day I don't even like to check my own oil. I just never got any joy out of keeping my ****ty car going. Maybe this is not relevant, but i don't think that my revulsion of auto repair labor makes me any less masculine.


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## Trickster

After H.S., I had a job with Brown & Root and was working at a Refinery. At the time, I was promoted to a pipefitter Assistant. I was a laboror before that. I had to crawl out on an Ibeam over 50 feet high. Just guessing at the height. It was my first time to climb that high and crawl out on that Ibeam. The foreman, the pipe fitters, welders...were all watching the new kid attatch the brackets. Today, I value my life, I don't think I am masculine enough to do that now...


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## Trickster

At some point in life, even though we may know how to fix something or chop down a tree, it is easier to just pay somebody.

I bought a new dishwasher recently. The delivery and installation was just $20 paid out over a year. I had no desire to install it myself. I still would have to haul the old one to the dump costing even more time.

Same thing with changing my oil. Its so convient to have my mechanic do that. In the past, when something major broke, I had my mechanic already. Somebody who knew me and who I trusted to do the job right. I could drop off my car, they gave be a ride to my job and picked me up when the job was done without an extra charge. I didn't miss out on work and didn't give up family time working on my car.


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## ocotillo

Trickster said:


> Today, I value my life, I don't think I am masculine enough to do that now...


LOL - I'm with you on that.

One of the most famous photographs of the late Charles Ebbets showed workman casually eating lunch during the construction of the G.E. Building:










(It's always struck me as strange that the man on the far right appears to have a bottle of hard liquor in his hand....)


----------



## treyvion

ocotillo said:


> LOL - I'm with you on that.
> 
> One of the most famous photographs of the late Charles Ebbets showed workman casually eating lunch during the construction of the G.E. Building:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (It's always struck me as strange that the man on the far right appears to have a bottle of hard liquor in his hand....)


I get scared just looking at this pic.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

My DH can't view pics like that without feeling lightheaded. Deathly afraid of heights.


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## Trickster

Looks like whiskey to me as well. Reminds me of she I painted my stairwell walls after drinking several glasses of wine. I was standing on the top cap of a step ladder doing the cut. My wife was out of town. She could of found be on the stairs with a broken neck two days later...


----------



## Racer

Heights is one of those weird things. When I first started my career, I designed cellular antenna sites for various carriers. So that involved climbing up into the crows nest on those huge towers (tallest was 240’), and dangling my head over the edge of highrises and into open shafts (like elevator shafts) looking for attachment points and routing. Other’s I have to regularly do is walk across pitched roofs in bad weather to look at the icing problems and a lot of scaffold climbing though most never get over 5 stories.. 

You just sort of blow through that fear (it’s there, you just don’t let it stop you) and well… you have some safety equipment like a harness on most jobs or a net down below. But things mess with you like those towers, even though they don’t look it, sway back and forth. So it feels like a boat and groans. Wind can also be unsettling. Can’t imagine though being one of those old steelworkers though… insane.

I attribute a lack of overwhelming fear due to being an avid tree climber as a kid and rockclimber in college. Did some really dumb things like competitions to see how high you could get. Cottonwoods; monstrous where I know the one in my parents back yard didn’t even have branches until it got to their roof… 3 stories up and you’d basically hand over hand this branch until you got to the main limb. My mom has since told me that she’d sit in the breakfast nook wringing her hands while watching my friends and I take on these trees. She’s also said no other group of boys has ever been able to get up these trees over the years. No one even tries to anymore. We built forts up there; some remnants still remain some 35 years later.


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## treyvion

ocotillo said:


> LOL - I'm with you on that.
> 
> One of the most famous photographs of the late Charles Ebbets showed workman casually eating lunch during the construction of the G.E. Building:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (It's always struck me as strange that the man on the far right appears to have a bottle of hard liquor in his hand....)


I did my research and this GE building is almost 900 ft tall, built in 1930... A friggin mazing. I would love to watch the build process. Also I wonder how they got so many men able to walk on the beams like that, what about wind?

I mean your telling me a simple misstep results in fatality, or was there a completed floor beneath where they were sitting?


----------



## ocotillo

treyvion said:


> I mean your telling me a simple misstep results in fatality, or was there a completed floor beneath where they were sitting?



This was way before my time, but judging from some of his other pictures, the potential for a fatal fall looks pretty real to me.


----------



## Coffee Amore

Amazing balance and lack of fear of heights.


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## treyvion

ocotillo said:


> This was way before my time, but judging from some of his other pictures, the potential for a fatal fall looks pretty real to me.


Hell if he drops that wrench someone would be seriously injured or dead underneath.

You wonder if they were really doing lunch like that or did it for the pics.


----------



## BaxJanson

My uncle used to work the high steel. He's told me tales that make my hair stand on end - apparently, they didn't get days off just because the beams would be covered in ice.


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## ocotillo

treyvion said:


> You wonder if they were really doing lunch like that or did it for the pics.


The workers are obviously "Posing" for these pictures. I doubt very much if they typically ate their lunch like that. 

But the lack of safety harnesses and hard hats was real and the fact that they could even pose for the pictures at all shows they were accustomed to the conditions.


----------



## treyvion

ocotillo said:


> The workers are obviously "Posing" for these pictures. I doubt very much if they typically ate their lunch like that.
> 
> But the lack of safety harnesses and hard hats was real and the fact that they could even pose for the pictures at all shows they were accustomed to the conditions.


Yeah, I know. Had to be balls of steel. Those guys wouldn't minded a fist fight and possibly losing teeth.


----------



## Racer

Coffee Amore said:


> Amazing balance and lack of fear of heights.


Actually on the balance part... most those beams look wider than 8". A top of a curb is 6"; Can't you walk along a curb?

It's the height that messes with you and plays tricks in your head.


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## Trickster

I don't think there was OSHA back then. That would never be allowed today . I don't know how wide the beams were.. 8 inches sounds about right. I wasn't allowed to just walk out on the beam. I crawled out to where I had to attach the brackets. I had to keep my harness attached the whole time. I had to prove myself, everybody was watching. I also wasn't 50 stories up. Still high enough to scare the heck out of me.


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## Caribbean Man

ocotillo said:


> LOL - I'm with you on that.
> 
> One of the most famous photographs of the late Charles Ebbets showed workman casually eating lunch during the construction of the G.E. Building:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (It's always struck me as strange that the man on the far right appears to have a bottle of hard liquor in his hand....)


They say a picture paints a thousand words...

Those men in that pic represent an era of masculinity. That era when one of the benchmark of masculinity was ,

"_ doing the right thing in spite of the consequences._"

Providing for his family was his highest duty , and he did it with pride.
Often times the consequence was death.
Death was part of " the male privilege ."

The guys on that beam , albeit without any safety harnesses ,are an accurate representation of the male stereotype around that era.
The men who sacrificed their lives did the dirtiest , most dangerous jobs that built the American economy and made it the largest in the world.

From the servicemen who fought and died in the wars to the coal miners working way down in the belly of the earth , in the most dangerous conditions , exposed to poisonous gases and explosions , extracting coal that powered the economy.

Recently I was looking at one of my favorite shows on Discovery channel called 
" Megastructures " where they were showcasing the workers and the engineering methods used to construct some of the worlds tallest structures in cities like Dubai and China.
Same story as that pic , but just that they wore safety harnesses.

Then they showed one of the world's largest and busiest port in Rotterdam , Netherlands.
Same story as that pic , men operating some of the most dangerous cranes , gantry cranes , over 300 feet high ,the operator in a suspended cabin with no floor, just a steel frame because he needs to see below.

Comparing then and now , nothing much has changed , except now they wear safety equipment and sadly , the men who actually do these dangerous , physically demanding , dirty , stressful types of jobs and sometimes loose their lives aren't really respected by society.
But like their counterparts on that floating steel beam in the pic you posted of decades ago , that too is part of " the male privilege."

Next time you see a picture of the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco , pause a moment to remember the 11 workmen who fell and died during the construction of the bridge , and the 19 others who actually fell off , but was caught in the safety net below.

Back then the industry "safety standard " was , 
_"one man's life for every million dollars spent..."_
.
.
.
.
The bridge cost $27 million.


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## Caribbean Man

Trickster said:


> I don't think there was OSHA back then. That would never be allowed today . I don't know how wide the beams were.. 8 inches sounds about right. I wasn't allowed to just walk out on the beam. I crawled out to where I had to attach the brackets. I had to keep my harness attached the whole time. I had to prove myself, everybody was watching. I also wasn't 50 stories up. Still high enough to scare the heck out of me.


When I was a first yr Eng. student I used to work for one of my uncles who owned a construction company. 
He made me a foreman. I was the youngest man on job site ,and men under my charge were much older and experienced than me.

We were working on a high rise apartment complex.

I literally had to " walk the beam " with a 40 lbs drill kit in hand ,in order to earn their respect.

Testosterone, camaraderie and adrenaline is what helps to keep you 
" balanced."


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## jld

CM, when you talk about "the male privilege," are you feeling like men are not respected for the risk they take, and the work they do?


----------



## Caribbean Man

jld said:


> CM, when you talk about "the male privilege," are you feeling like men are not respected for the risk they take, and the work they do?


Yes.

My thoughts are that these men were the actual builders of the physical infrastructure that made our present social constructs possible.

Yet when reference is made of masculinity in popular media and some feminist literature , they are made out as if they were oppressors , when the history and present reality tells us much differently.

These men literally paid with their lives for the standard of living most people in the West enjoy today. They would forever remain nameless , just a like a worker ant in a colony , working tirelessly to provide for the young cocoons and the queen bee.

Their stories are_ never_ told.

Whatever " privilege" they have because of their gender is negated by the real struggles they face daily to provide for their families while building society.

I used the Port of Rotterdam as a modern example because if that port and a couple others like the Port of Singapore was shut down, the entire world economy would fall.

Yet daily, those men who work the cranes,and the machines, the most dangerous jobs, simply do it because they want to put food on their family's table.

And their story is repeated hundreds of millions of times, all over.
They represent one of the fundamental, core values of masculinity.
Working hard and taking care of family business.

Nothing about their gender or existence gives them " privilege "


----------



## jld

Thanks for your response. Would you agree that the real struggle is between the rich and the poor? With the poor woman being even more invisible and unprivileged than the poor man? That is what I seemed to see in India, anyway.

It's really all about power, right?


----------



## Caribbean Man

jld said:


> Thanks for your response. Would you agree that the real struggle is between the rich and the poor? With the poor woman being even more invisible and unprivileged than the poor man? That is what I seemed to see in India, anyway.
> 
> It's really all about power, right?



Yes.
I'll put it this way.

Lots wouldn't agree with me , but Karl Marx wasn't entirely wrong. I don't think that men are the enemy or women are the enemy.

IMO, the real enemy is the system that alienates and causes 
" _the separation of things that naturally belong together; and the placement of antagonism between things which are properly in harmony.."_


----------



## jld

I agree. Men and women were meant to work together, to complement one another.

Even those with great wealth can use it to benefit society. Monopolies, like wise kings, could be effective. But greed often gets in the way.

Or in the case of personal relationships, selfishness.


----------



## Caribbean Man

jld said:


> I agree. Men and women were meant to work together, to complement one another.
> 
> Even those with great wealth can use it to benefit society. Monopolies, like wise kings, could be effective. But greed often gets in the way.
> 
> Or in the case of personal relationships, selfishness.


YES!

I'm glad that you got what I was trying to say!


----------



## MEM2020

CM,

The toughest thing about this topic is that it is very difficult to differentiate between those who can't and those who won't. 

There is consensus on caring for those who clearly and obviously can't care for themselves. 




Caribbean Man said:


> Yes.
> I'll put it this way.
> 
> Lots wouldn't agree with me , but Karl Marx wasn't entirely wrong. I don't think that men are the enemy or women are the enemy.
> 
> IMO, the real enemy is the system that alienates and causes
> " _the separation of things that naturally belong together; and the placement of antagonism between things which are properly in harmony.."_


----------



## SamuraiJack

Caribbean Man said:


> Yes.
> I'll put it this way.
> 
> Lots wouldn't agree with me , but Karl Marx wasn't entirely wrong. I don't think that men are the enemy or women are the enemy.
> 
> IMO, the real enemy is the system that alienates and causes
> " _the separation of things that naturally belong together; and the placement of antagonism between things which are properly in harmony.."_


Hence the reason that yin/yang duologies are often compared to male/female energies. 
I sometimes wonder if the multiple ways that society and media drive us arent hurting our ability to harmonize with the opposite sex.


----------



## movealong

SamuraiJack said:


> Hence the reason that yin/yang duologies are often compared to male/female energies.
> I sometimes wonder if the multiple ways that society and media drive us arent hurting our ability to harmonize with the opposite sex.


Try to find a story about gender on any outlet where genders working together is used as a positive within the story. I think you'll be able to answer that without difficulty. 

There is money to be made by causing conflict within society.


----------



## jld

SamuraiJack said:


> Hence the reason that yin/yang duologies are often compared to male/female energies.
> I sometimes wonder if the multiple ways that society and media drive us arent hurting our ability to harmonize with the opposite sex.


The thing is, we are trying to integrate each sex into the other's sphere. In at least some ways, we are going against nature. 

Now, there can be advantages to working against nature. But there will be costs. We are seeing some of the costs. 

Doesn't mean there are not benefits. But we have to acknowledge the costs, too.


----------



## ocotillo

There's an interesting book by Roy Baumeister entitled, _Is There Anything Good About Men? _

He argues that much of the bickering of the so-called "Gender war" has been unproductive and divisive. Human beings tend to drift into roles where they are the most effective and this shouldn't be confused with fairness. There's nothing even remotely fair about it. 

Fairness is certainly a valid discussion, but the energy to devote to that subject is a by product of comparative affluence. People had far less time to worry about what was and what was not fair when just staying alive from one day to the next was a struggle.

For example, this is a back street in New York City around the turn of the 20th century, which was really not that long ago:










Apparently dead horses on the street were the equivalent of broken down and abandoned automobiles and I don't even want to think about the water the children appear to be dangling their feet in.


----------



## jld

Yep, reminds me of India. We lived there for a few years, and it was like going back in time.


----------



## Racer

Caribbean Man said:


> Yet when reference is made of masculinity in popular media and some feminist literature , they are made out as if they were oppressors , when the history and present reality tells us much differently.


Random thought. This could also explain ‘the shift’. Masculinity to me also seems tied into the risk. Like your crane operators. But like you mentioned, popular media paints a picture that he is forced to work and face these risk due to corporate greed, government corruptions, etc.

But you take the ‘extreme sports’. Those guys chasing mavericks, diving with sharks, etc. and the popular media has no ‘negative’ abuses to say about it. Regular sanctioned sports they do; just take college football players for instance or the pros with large ego’s and felonies. They just aren’t in the same light as the ones who do it ‘just because’.


----------



## sinnister

1. Your wife is 6'3"? that's awesome.
2. Cats that climb trees and get "stuck" need to unstick themselves.
3. I agree with everything your saying.

I don't think the state of masculinity has anything to with the changed landscape of the workplace.

As long as we have dongs and they don't we're not going to think and act the same. Even if society doesn't accept that, we should in our own households so that we can better understand each others perspectives.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Men walk out on crazy-high beams for the same reason that women engage in prostitution. Whether they enjoy what they do or hate it, they need to support themselves and their families, so they do what it takes to get it done. The gendered nature of the choice is nothing more than the dictates of supply and demand.

And back on the original topic. The list of activities that you do instead of your wife is more a product of your abilities and knowledge that it is your gender. That these skills were taught to you in the first place was due to your gender. Had she had the opportunity to learn those things as well as you did, the chore division would simply fall to whomever had the time. You could write a similar list of chores that would 'stereotypically' fall to a woman.

When the child's school says bring cupcakes, who makes them?
When the pants need hemming, who does it?
Etc.

The gendered nature of these choices is also simply due to the opportunities given to individuals. If women found lessons in auto mechanics as easily as men did, they'd be looking after their own cars.

I think that a lot of these choices are also based on perception, and men's egos. Men don't like to be seen having an interest in 'female' chores because it calls their masculinity into question. Women don't like to intrude on 'male' chores, as men often take it as a threat to their masculine territory.

The world will be a much better place when we can finally deconstruct confidence from masculinity and softness from femininity.


----------



## movealong

Hopeful Cynic said:


> The world will be a much better place when we can finally deconstruct confidence from masculinity and softness from femininity.


There are no "real" examples of your premise, so i am pulling from the world of Science Fiction. Is this what you are advocating? 

Just curious, I want to ensure I know what you meant.


----------



## Racer

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I think that a lot of these choices are also based on perception, and men's egos. Men don't like to be seen having an interest in 'female' chores because it calls their masculinity into question. Women don't like to intrude on 'male' chores, as men often take it as a threat to their masculine territory..


But see how you worded that? 
I could easily counter the same:
Men don’t like to be seen having an interest in ‘female’ chores because they don’t want to threaten their wives feminine territory. Women don’t like to have an interest on ‘male’ chores, because it calls their femininity into question.

Can put it in perspective for you. Single people living on their own. Is it probable a man will cook, do laundry, and clean for himself? Is it probable a woman will build something herself or car maintenance like waxing it or replacing a headlight? A man will cross over in most cases. It gets ‘iffy’ when talking about a woman crossing over into ‘manly’ things even though it’s not rocket science or has physical limitations… it’s just not something she’ll do. And it has nothing to do with stepping on the territory of a man (she’s living alone).


----------



## Trentontoo

ocotillo said:


> I read articles from time to time on the internet and in print about how societal changes have "Displaced" men by largely eliminating traditional gender roles and gender based expectations. I don't disagree with all of it. The face of the job market has certainly changed drastically in the last 50 years. But much of what I've read strikes me as gratuitous hand-wringing. There are lots of things that must be done in life besides secular employment, and in a husband/wife team, these duties still seem to automatically divide up along the lines of who does and does not naturally want to do them.
> 
> For example, in my house:
> 
> When there is a scorpion scuttling across the ceiling, a black widow in the bathtub, etc., who gets to deal with it?
> 
> When there are broken roofing tiles that need replacing, who gets to go two stories up the ladder and replace them?
> 
> When the main breaker went out over a weekend, who got to pull the electrical meter and replace it?
> 
> When our daughter's cat was stuck 35 feet up in a tree, who got to go up and get it down?
> 
> When the same damn Eucalyptus tree got so big it needed to be cut down, who go to do it?
> 
> When the condenser coils of a roof mounted AC unit need hosing out in spring, who gets to do it?
> 
> When a line transformer came down in the backyard during a violent thunderstorm, who had to physically restrain their spouse from running out in the wet grass in their bare feet to save one of the dogs?​
> The answer to all those questions is one word: ME.
> 
> Don't misunderstand. My wife is not stupid. I'm not the least bit ashamed to say that she's smarter than I am. The point is she doesn't know how to mix fuel for a chain saw, hell, she doesn't even know how to start one, let alone use it safely and even if she did, she's not physically strong enough even at 6'-3". She doesn't know how to rope a medium sized tree and tension it to help it fall in the right direction, She doesn't have an inkling about how to pull an electrical meter and not get killed, she's not overly comfortable with ladders, steep pitched roofs and heights, she doesn't know how to mix insecticide or handle volatile chemicals safely, she doesn't know what household outlets are on which breaker and therefore doesn't know how to balance the load of high wattage appliances, she couldn't sweat a plumbing joint even if her life was at stake and on and on and on.
> 
> It's not that she couldn't learn these things if she needed to. Again, she's very, very smart. But why would you learn how to do things you don't particularly enjoy when you're married to someone who does enjoy them and already knows how to do them? I suppose someone could say, "Look Ocotillo. You've lived on the cusp of many of these changes, so they haven't affected you like they've affected young men. Your upbringing was more traditional."
> 
> But even when I look around among young men, I'm not seeing it. There are plenty of young men in their late teens busy building more powerful engines for their cars in the garage, building and overclocking PC's, figuring out how to publish a server on a residential connection by using non-standard ports, etc. In short, they're showing the exact same inquisitiveness and desire to manipulate their environment that men have always shown and which serves them in good stead throughout life.
> 
> Society changes. That's inevitable. I don't think our basic natures do and therefore do not understand the hand wringing.
> 
> Am I missing something here?


Sorry, a friend had me reading a post here on TAM and of course I wandered into all of the gender BS that continues here, but oct, your post especially surprised me.

I get the feeling that although you think your wife is smart and you admire her, you feel she takes advantage of your masculinity. Can you list all the things that your wife does that are related to her gender? She's capable but has no interest and no need to because of you but isn't this reciprocated? And isn't it also very narrow minded thinking to believe that because your relationship and experience is like this, it clearly breaks down to inevitable gender roles? 

What about single mothers who inevitably will take on the rolls? If we're basing it on experience, my best friend is a single mother who gardens, builds her own furniture, changes her own oil in her car, etc.

Is she a man/woman? Nope. She's feminine and enjoys sex and her boyfriend as well. She's simply self sufficient.

If coupling personalities will automatically multi-task based upon their strengths if they want to be together for the long haul. My husband fails at killing spiders every time...they drop and run away. I now kill spiders. I could go on but it would be redundant.

As for STEM...perceptions and society, your perception is an example, have not caught up to truly ignite girls and women in these fields. Men constantly want to retain and fight for power, women are constantly apologizing and (AS A WHOLE) not yet willing to sit at the table. They have to be at the table and not apologizing as a group in order to see change.

Verizon Commercial...great example of how to change it though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP3cyRRAfX0&feature=kp

Lego's has added girl scientists and other fields to their blocks based upon a girl's complaint to the company and the internet taking it on collectively:
LEGO will make new female characters with science jobs - The Washington Post

This woman sums up clearly why feminism needs to still exist and why women need to stop apologizing for it or feeling less feminine because of it and I echo her sentiment *EXACTLY*
51 Pretty Shocking Facts That Make Things Harder For Every Woman You Have Ever Met

Empowering women is never a bad idea and it almost always works. It's also necessary. There is no need for a gender war.
A TED Talk That Might Turn Every Man Who Watches It Into A Feminist? It's Pretty Fantastic.

Retaining old thoughts and beliefs and complaining about the impact of changing times or feeling resentful, just as we learn through seeking guidance and counseling in our intimate relationships, never works.

Recognition that; yes, we are male or female (and sometimes both), but we are also individuals with unique experiences, strengths and abilities as well as weaknesses. Then you collaborate and work within what is just for the whole without regard to gender, experience, race, nationality and voila...the whole world is better off.

We make these issues far smaller than they truly are and that is a shame for both us and the world as a whole.

Now, solving it, well:
GoldieBlox commercial rewrites the Beastie Boys, urges young girls to pursue engineering, is fabulous.


----------



## ocotillo

coffee4me said:


> By the examples that you gave you live in an area where boys still play outside and helicopter parents are less prevalent.


Those two examples were specific to phobias that usually cause a man to lose social standing in front of his peers. Shrieking at the sight of a big spider is not, "Manly" and if a man does it in front of other men, they're as like as not, going to be rolling on the ground laughing. Similarly, you can see by the male responses on this thread that mastering a normal fear of heights is something to be admired. 

I did try to keep examples of outlets of what strikes me as basic male nature a little more current. The benchmarks of gaming PC's seems to be the modern equivalent of the horsepower race of previous generations and many of the young men I know are into this. There are also still plenty of young men (At least where I live) who are into cars, In my generation, it was Chevrolet, Ford and Dodge but my nephews prefer to build overpowered Acuras and Nissans today.

I do take your point though. There are young men who seem unable to find their feet on their own. I'm not sure what the answer to that is.


----------



## samyeagar

Racer said:


> But see how you worded that?
> I could easily counter the same:
> Men don’t like to be seen having an interest in ‘female’ chores because they don’t want to threaten their wives feminine territory. Women don’t like to have an interest on ‘male’ chores, because it calls their femininity into question.
> 
> Can put it in perspective for you. Single people living on their own. Is it probable a man will cook, do laundry, and clean for himself? Is it probable a woman will build something herself or car maintenance like waxing it or replacing a headlight? A man will cross over in most cases. It gets ‘iffy’ when talking about a woman crossing over into ‘manly’ things even though it’s not rocket science or has physical limitations… it’s just not something she’ll do. And it has nothing to do with stepping on the territory of a man (she’s living alone).


My wife and I are case in point for this. When I was married to my ex wife, I did a fair amount of the cooking, cleaning, laundry, helping the kids with school projects, painted my daughters nails, etc, along with all of the household maintenance stuff like mowing, building things, laying tile floors, repairing drywall, replacing circuit breakers, fixing broken pipes, car repairs, all that...When we separated, I still did all of those things for myself, in fact with the cooking, I enjoyed it more because I could get more creative.

My wife on the other hand, she divorced about four years ago, and has never learned, nor done the so called manly things for herself. She had no desire to and always found someone to do it for her.

I don't think it has anything to do with a mans ego at all. I imagine more men branch out into the so called "feminine" roles when single than women do to the more "masculine" roles.


----------



## ocotillo

Hopeful Cynic said:


> That these skills were taught to you in the first place was due to your gender. Had she had the opportunity to learn those things as well as you did, the chore division would simply fall to whomever had the time. You could write a similar list of chores that would 'stereotypically' fall to a woman.


If you've ever seen the movie, _October Sky_, the character John Hickam (Chris Cooper) was my father to a tee. If you were not interested in his world and following in his footsteps, he had no use for you. Even today we can stand each other only in small, infrequent doses. The assumption that these things were taught to me by someone else is almost always a female remark. I'm not sure why. 

Years ago, my brother and I were both in a Ducati dealership. He had his three year old son in tow and I had my three year old daughter with me. The salesman, sensing an easy kill, fired up one of the bikes in the showroom and revved it up loudly. The reactions of the two children were interesting. My daughter burst into tears, but my nephew was so excited by the loud mechanical sound that he involuntarily grabbed his genitals. I've seen that exact same reaction in young children around jet engines, race cars, etc. several times since then. So I suspect we're going to disagree on the extent of nurture over nature.

When it comes to the things I listed, nobody taught me any of them. Some, I think are societal expectation for men, so in that sense there was more pressure on me to learn them than there was on my wife. Most align with interests that I and many other males have had since we could walk and probably more importantly, contain an element of risk that is appealing at a visceral level.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

movealong said:


> There are no "real" examples of your premise, so i am pulling from the world of Science Fiction. Is this what you are advocating?
> 
> Just curious, I want to ensure I know what you meant.


I meant simply that until we find value in a man who does not display confidence but is 'soft' instead of belittling him as less than a masculine ideal, there's something wrong in the world.

I hope it's not science fiction!


----------



## Jetranger

ocotillo said:


> My daughter burst into tears, but my nephew was so excited by the loud mechanical sound that he involuntarily grabbed his genitals.


:rofl:


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Racer said:


> But see how you worded that?
> I could easily counter the same:
> Men don’t like to be seen having an interest in ‘female’ chores because they don’t want to threaten their wives feminine territory. Women don’t like to have an interest on ‘male’ chores, because it calls their femininity into question.


That's the double standard, isn't it? A woman can express interest in 'male' chores and is encouraged by the feminist movement. There is no similar thinking that promotes male interest in 'female' chores as a good thing. Most women I know would welcome male assistance with their 'female' chores. Most women I know who express interest in 'male' skills are discouraged from doing so not by it being a threat to their femininity, but by the come-on's or insults from men when they try.



Racer said:


> Can put it in perspective for you. Single people living on their own. Is it probable a man will cook, do laundry, and clean for himself? Is it probable a woman will build something herself or car maintenance like waxing it or replacing a headlight? A man will cross over in most cases. It gets ‘iffy’ when talking about a woman crossing over into ‘manly’ things even though it’s not rocket science or has physical limitations… it’s just not something she’ll do. And it has nothing to do with stepping on the territory of a man (she’s living alone).


In my anecdotal experience, men living single tend to eat take-out and live like slobs. Women living single tend to take their cars to a mechanic or ask a male friend for help, instead of learning to do it themselves. But, this is anecdotal only, so of limited value. As to the why's, well, that's probably a whole field of study, but I'd be willing to hypothesize that it has a great deal to do with how men or women were treated when they tried to learn these non-traditional skills. Men were likely discouraged by other people thinking them emasculated, and women were likely discouraged by being made to feel unwelcome.

During the war years, when women did a lot of 'male' jobs while the men were soldiers, they turned out to be perfectly capable, and yet when the war ended and the lucky men returned home, most women were kicked out of their jobs and made to resume the 'female' roles.

The stupidest thing is that the genderized chores were different in various historical periods!


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

ocotillo said:


> Years ago, my brother and I were both in a Ducati dealership. He had his three year old son in tow and I had my three year old daughter with me. The salesman, sensing an easy kill, fired up one of the bikes in the showroom and revved it up loudly. The reactions of the two children were interesting. My daughter burst into tears, but my nephew was so excited by the loud mechanical sound that he involuntarily grabbed his genitals. I've seen that exact same reaction in young children around jet engines, race cars, etc. several times since then. So I suspect we're going to disagree on the extent of nurture over nature.


I'm sure they are both in there. Your daughter may have already internalized the idea that things that are loud are scary, while your nephew had already been exposed to the idea that machines are cool enough to make you pee your pants.

The problem isn't that girls tend to be one way and boys tend to be another. It's the way girls and boys who attempt to break out of the mold are treated.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

samyeagar said:


> My wife and I are case in point for this. When I was married to my ex wife, I did a fair amount of the cooking, cleaning, laundry, helping the kids with school projects, painted my daughters nails, etc, along with all of the household maintenance stuff like mowing, building things, laying tile floors, repairing drywall, replacing circuit breakers, fixing broken pipes, car repairs, all that...When we separated, I still did all of those things for myself, in fact with the cooking, I enjoyed it more because I could get more creative.
> 
> My wife on the other hand, she divorced about four years ago, and has never learned, nor done the so called manly things for herself. She had no desire to and always found someone to do it for her.
> 
> I don't think it has anything to do with a mans ego at all. I imagine more men branch out into the so called "feminine" roles when single than women do to the more "masculine" roles.


I think this has to do with society's expectations that men be capable and self-reliant, and women be taken care of. Men are socialized to do what needs to be done, while women are taught to get someone else to do it for them. Once these attitudes are internalized, it's very difficult to get rid of them.

I like this thread. Very thought provoking.


----------



## samyeagar

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I think this has to do with society's expectations that men be capable and self-reliant, and women be taken care of. Men are socialized to do what needs to be done, *while women are taught to get someone else to do it for them*. Once these attitudes are internalized, it's very difficult to get rid of them.
> 
> I like this thread. Very thought provoking.


Just take a look around places like Facebook and popular media...it's not just merely taught...it's celebrated!


----------



## Cosmos

Caribbean Man said:


> 19 th century philosopher , Bertrand Russel once said ;
> " _All movements go to far_", meaning that the only way any movement can realize it full potential is to push right through the centre point of equilibrium and go to the extreme position ,much like a pendulum.
> 
> Given the laws of nature and the forces of gravity, a pendulum usually comes to rest right back at it's centre of oscillation,
> Where it rightfully belongs.


:iagree:

And the centre of oscillation isn't skewed or biased...

I also agree that all movements tend to go too far. Right now society's pendulum is still at the stage where it's swinging quite erratically.


----------



## Racer

Another random thought. As a gender, we have embraced some of those ‘feminine’ traditional roles as quite masculine. We just do it in our non-girly way. Take the grill; accepted by most as a ‘guy thing’. But I’ve seen that expanded. Back in my day, a can of chili and a hot dog cooked over an open fire while camping was one of ‘those things’. Your girlfriend did marshmallows, guys cooked ‘meat on a stick’.. Now? I know guys that do f’n magical things with food and a fire camping. One of my buds somehow can take a fresh fish, toss on some spices, and wrap it in a wet cloth, then slather a mud cocoon around it and pitch in the fire. So good and I hate fish. But technically, it’s “baking” it’s done though in a wholly masculine way and at new levels I’ve never witnessed a girl even attempting.


----------



## changedbeliefs

coffee4me said:


> I don't watch much tv so I don't see all the bumbling male figures portrayed that people talk about in popular media now. I did watch a few clips recently masculinity and todays young men. The lady, "the factual feminist" feels that boys in the US are getting short changed in education and the hosts are hearing none of it despite the facts.
> 
> Dr. Sommers on MSNBC about boys' education, dismissed/mocked by Feminist hosts - YouTube


Raising two young kids, I see a lot of children's TV shows, and now we're into "young adult" type shows (well, they're 10 and 13, not young adult, but no more toddler/Doodlebop stuff). My kids watch Disney/DisneyXD predominantly. I finally had a realization, after trying to decide what almost every show rubbed me the wrong way. The themes that seem to dominate are:

1) The people portrayed live lives of privilege: big houses or lavish accomodations, kids are always all dressed like pop stars, etc...

2) Rarely see the children doing anything of responsibility. That is, they're not doing chores at home, rarely seen actually in class at school, usually socializing, planning a dance, something like that.

3) A very common theme is, at least one of the kids, if not more than one, are aspiring, or actual, celebrities: singers, actors (or both) or something. They're always auditioning for a producer, or preparing for their concert, etc...

4) Here's the biggie: not only are parents almost nonexistent in the show/plot, when they are visible, they are usually seen as clueless, fumbling (and, yes, especially dads) and unaware of what's going on. They are generally brought into the plot for, a) comedic relief (see, bumbling dad), and b) the PARENTS end up being taught some lesson BY the kids. 

Daniel Tosh had a snippet in his show once, where he summarized: "Every commercial is the same: Dad's dumb, kids are adorable, and mom thinks she saved the day by adding a box of seasoning to a pound of ground beef.

Yes, I do think dads are catching the short end of a stick lately. SAHM's are a revered class, everyone is on the lookout to see where their kid is being discriminated against or bullied. A middle-class, middle-aged, working class father of 2 is about the least considered population ever, but it's also confusing. On one hand, people will patronize like, "oh my god, your husband helps with the dishes, what a great dad!!" But, go out for beers one night, and you're painted back as some 50's dad who expects his slippers laid out and is banging the secretary (no....this is not a real life situation for me....just saying). I wish everyone was expected to be capable in their own right, given credit for their efforts, leeway in their failings, and that's it.


----------



## Forest

It seems men are now presumed to have to constantly taught something. Something that is somehow foreign to them. Taught how to behave socially, taught how to feel, and especially taught how to treat women. In this area, there seems to be an infinite presumption that men must be painstakingly and endlessly educated and guided.

Does it seem:

With women there seems to be an assumption that she is innately qualified to competently deal with men?


----------



## Caribbean Man

coffee4me said:


> My son does not cry at funerals and you would likely not ever see him cry. Did I teach him that, NO. He is naturally like that, he prefers to process his pain in private. Doesn't mean he doesn't feel pain or stuffs it down, he just prefers to feel strong in times of crisis - and that's ok.
> 
> I sometimes wonder if I would have been having these same conversations with other mothers 30 years ago. When it was ok for a man to act like a man.


I just read through your response and saw this.

I am very much this way too, I hardly every cry at funerals and so on. During a crisis I am usually the one to take control and figure a way out, even before I was married.

I don't even cry at sad movies.


But I find myself feeling sad when I look at the news of the world and see people displaced and suffering because of war.

I was looking at BBC this week and they were highlighting the situation in Iraq and Syria.
They showed a makeshift orphan children's home in a war torn town.
There were these two kids, the girl about 5 yrs old and the boy around 10. They lost both their parents in a suicide bomb attack. The boy lifted his shirt and there were stitches running right across his belly from left to right. The girl had also lost a leg in the attack.
I asked myself what would be these children future, and I could not think of anything that in Iraq's future that would make their life better, given the history and nature of the conflict , and political situation in their country.

And the tears came to my eyes.


----------



## Trickster

I didn't cry at my Dads funeral or my 2 brothers. However, I will tear up at a Hallmark commercial...

I will even cry at a Disney Pixar movie...My daughter just laughs at me... 

I know... Not very Masculine... Makes me want to climb up on a ladder to clean our 2nd story gutters...

I did cry watching Meet the Robinsons


----------



## Thundarr

Racer said:


> They remind me a lot of a friend of the family. He was a Deadhead; followed the Grateful Dead. Free spirit sort. I used to envy him. He’d travel all over the world, camping, hitchhiking, bartering, ski expeditions, etc. It was ‘cool’. It started looking ‘bad’ around 30. He was living on a cot in a landscaper warehouse (his buddy whom he worked with occasionally). Odd jobs here and there; a bum. By 40, he’s barely a step above a vagrant. Now living in a converted tough shed (rents the cabin his parents bought him so he wouldn’t freeze and had a home), showering at the gym, and delivering pizza’s. He was never able to hold onto a girlfriend and hasn’t ever gotten his life together.





ScarletBegonias said:


> Is he happy?
> 
> I know guys like this and they wouldn't trade their "barely a step above a vagrant" lifestyle for anything. If he's happy,who is anyone to judge him for that?


Statistically speaking, the 40-50 year old version of Racer's example is not happy. On the contrary, he feels helpless to change his life and to a degree feels like he's failed in many ways and he's angry about it (he would like a redo). Angry at mom/dad, angry at "the man", hypersensitive of what others think, etc, but down deep he's angry at himself. Of course I'm not talking about a specific person but more of common pattern.

In short, the guys you mention Scarlet are either the exception or they're not old enough for the "where is my life going" thoughts to kick in.


----------



## ocotillo

intheory said:


> I would have loved to have been taught about how cars worked. I think if you have an interest and are taught early enough; men or women can learn mechanical skills.


I don't flatter myself into believing that this is a, "Gift" or a, "Talent" because I've known too many other men who were just as good or better. 

Nobody had to teach me. When I was about ten, my father gave me an irrigation pump motor that he was going to throw away because, in his words, it would "...save his tractor from that darn kid." It was a horizontal shaft Briggs & Stratton engine with a fractured crankshaft that had damaged the housing beyond repair. I took it apart and put it together more times than I can count. 

In high school, I befriended other boys of like mind and we all worked on projects together. Sometimes their fathers would watch for a few minutes and offer some advice, but mostly, the Korean/WWII generation did not understand why anyone would yank the engine out of vehicle that already ran fine just to put in something more powerful.

One of the boys was from Wisconsin and we stumbled across the fact that there was money to be made by buying cars in Arizona and selling them in Wisconsin. (At the time, cars were many times more susceptible to rust than they are today.) This was especially true of pony cars five years old and older (e.g. Camaro, Firebird, Mustang, Charger, Super Bee, etc.) Our pragmatic fathers were actually proud of that, which gave us a little more freedom to indulge the hobby.


----------



## ocotillo

Trickster said:


> I will even cry at a Disney Pixar movie...My daughter just laughs at me...


_Grave of the Fireflies_ tears me apart. I watched it once. Never again.

(If anybody watches it out of curiosity....you've been warned. )


----------



## Caribbean Man

ocotillo said:


> Nobody had to teach me. *When I was about ten, my father gave me an irrigation pump motor that he was going to throw away because, in his words, it would "...save his tractor from that darn kid." It was a horizontal shaft Briggs & Stratton engine with a fractured crankshaft that had damaged the housing beyond repair.* I took it apart and put it together more times than I can count.


That would either be a red or black Briggs & Stratton with the cast iron housing / barrel.

Am I correct?

Just trying to joggle my memory here, I had the same fascination with two stroke engines back when I was a kid.

I remember scrapping my BMX bicycle and building it back up so man times, each time to improve its efficiency and performance,
Read: to make t faster.

I had an early fascination with anything mechanical , and always either tried to improve its speed , or its efficiency.

In my late teens when I was first yr eng. I took a 13 Hp Deutz 4 cylinder diesel engine and hooked it up to a 4" bore cast iron housing / barell , fixed it to a frame with wheels .
That became the main irrigation pump for a huge agricultural farm a friend of mine lived on.
Lol,, I remember going into the machine shop and machining an extension to the shaft to connect the housing rotor and the shaft of the Deutz , with exact precision.

Those are some f the fondest memories that I think shaped me into who I am.


----------



## ocotillo

Caribbean Man said:


> That would either be a red or black Briggs & Stratton with the cast iron housing / barrel.


CM, 

This one was olive green. I think the setup (Motor + Pump) may have been military in origin. The engine was 8 hp. It had the classing B&S downdraft carburetor and a large fuel tank that held almost a gallon. It did not have a recoiling starting rope. You had to manually wind the rope around a special pulley each time and it really took the strength of a grown man to get one of these started.


----------



## Caribbean Man

I think I came across one before.
Engine block was cast iron.

Those weighed a ton.


----------



## Personal

MEM11363 said:


> Oct,
> Your wife is 6'3" tall?


I was in a relationship with a woman who is 6'4" and most of the others where around 6' tall. My wife is 5'7" and my ex wife is 5'6", while I'm only 5'4". Tall women have always been handy since they can reach things in cupboards that I can't easily.

As to being masculine, as a teenager I loved bands like Bronski Beat, Wham, Pet Shop Boys, and Communards and had/have gay friends. The first time I got drunk was at 15 when I went with two 18 year old school friends who were gay to a famed gay club area. I had a great time yet have never felt any attraction for males sexually (or did anything) at any point. A lot of women also seem naturally drawn to me especially within the art and photography world that I move in today. Having said that a lot of men who I meet in the art world appear to me as insipid shrinking violets that I have no time for. On the other hand I often like the women I meet.

I also used to be an infantry soldier and after 6 years service became a Platoon Sergeant. I have been in a number of bar fights, and have stood down a couple of muggers who thought they could take me in a dark corner of a train station as well as many other events. I am not afraid of men that are bigger than me, although that doesn't mean I haven't been smashed on occasion, you win some and you lose some. Now that I am older I live a pretty peaceful life yet I still retain the self assured confidence that I have always had.

I also enjoy the company of woman more often than men (in part because, although I have always been faithful in all of my relationships I like being close to women who I find attractive). That doesn't mean I am uncomfortable hanging out with men as I am one, yet almost all of my male friends today are from my school days and or from when I was a soldier.

Although I know how to change tires, and where to put the oil in and change a battery, I can't fix an engine since apart from those things I don't have a clue. I likewise hate participating in and watching all sport except cycling and taking part in volleyball. Yet I have roped out of helicopters, parachuted from planes, done loops in gliders and other aircraft caved, abseiled and blown things up. Yet my wife is usually the one who deals with the spiders since I really don't like them because of some horrid childhood experiences. By the same token I'm very stoic, yet that's probably an English thing rather than a male thing.

Since I'm not the usual suspect, I don't think a fixed set of characteristics necessarily determines ones masculinity. I am who I am and am okay with that so I couldn't care less wether I meet, exceed or fall short of some ideal.

Perhaps being self assured is very masculine, perhaps it is not. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that self assurance is good for all.


----------



## Entropy3000

Deejo said:


> Being comfortable with having gender based roles and expectations in an age where no one wants to have gender based roles and expectations.
> 
> Per the TED talk in the other thread, the acknowledgment that young men aren't learning how to be men ... from anyone. Social mores, personal code of conduct, self respect, self restraint.
> 
> Why focus on the social and intimate interactions of this world when there is little to no threat to the sense of self when you can become immersed in online worlds or games, and can watch endless videos of other people having the kind of sex that you will never have with the kind of woman that you won't ever interact with.
> 
> Life for many, many young men is a simulation. I have a friend with a 22 year old son. Quiet, pleasant, highly socially introverted, but a great kid. His entire 'persona' exists in cyberspace, not in genuine interactions. I really don't see this trend abating at all.
> 
> And in an age where women are finding their feet in seeing the world as their oyster, with strong personal realization in school, the workplace, and sexually ... I don't know if the kind of kid my friend's son is, is ever going to be the kind of man that a woman will look upon with respect and want to build a life with ... but they may just hook up in an MMORPG.
> 
> Where Have the Good Men Gone? - WSJ


Hokey Smokes. I generally like your posts. But this one cleared the whole stadium and not just the fences.

I think if we look closely this is a result of us overcompensating. 

Have young men been programmed into this behavior or have we just not cared what happens to men any more? 

Or will there be a 10% to 20% that rise to the top while the rest flounder?


----------



## Deejo

For example ...
Do I have an issue with these men?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...LcCMBI&usg=AFQjCNFH-Qta2OpH9FStA-dFWljuVMEDAA

No I don't. I don't feel compelled to mock, bully, or judge them.

Do I believe this character or kind of male makes me more attractive to MOST women? 

You bet your ass I do.


----------



## Thundarr

Deejo said:


> Life for many, many young men is a simulation. I have a friend with a 22 year old son. Quiet, pleasant, highly socially introverted, but a great kid. His entire 'persona' exists in cyberspace, not in genuine interactions. I really don't see this trend abating at all.
> 
> And in an age where women are finding their feet in seeing the world as their oyster, with strong personal realization in school, the workplace, and sexually ... I don't know if the kind of kid my friend's son is, is ever going to be the kind of man that a woman will look upon with respect and want to build a life with ... but they may just hook up in an MMORPG.
> 
> Where Have the Good Men Gone? - WSJ


For a few decades popular wisdom has preached to wait until late twenties or early thirties to marry and start a family. To make sure and finish education first. Well thats a good thing but it's new to our nature and we weren't ready for some side affects. Historically, starting a family and especially having a child has been the wakup call for men to switch gears. That's been postponed but no one has been telling guys to switch gears anyway. 

Maybe I'm delusional but I think kids are influenced by their parent's expectations for them and society's epectations for them. ( they won't admit it though  ). That being the case, our generation of parents, me included, didn't foresee this trend and therefore didn't talk about it or give subtle expectations.

My guess is this is a short term conscenquence that improve as our next generation matures.


----------



## Entropy3000

Thundarr said:


> For a few decades popular wisdom has preached to wait until late twenties or early thirties to marry and start a family. To make sure and finish education first. Well that a good thing but it's new to our nature and we we're ready for some side affects. Historically, starting a family and especially having a child has been the wakup call for men to switch gears. That's been postponed but no one has been tell guys to switch gears anyway.
> 
> Maybe I'm delusional but I think kids are influenced by their parent's expectations for them and society's epectations for them. ( they won't admit it though  ). That being the case, our generation of parents, me included, didn't foresee this trend and therefore didn't talk about it or give subtle expectations.
> 
> My guess is this is a short term conscenquence that improve as our next generation matures.


Interesting. I actually rebelled against my parents expectations of me or lack there of. Totally F'd up really.

My sister went to college. I wanted very much to be an Engineer. My mother did not want me leaving to go to college and my dad was dead set against anything but a trade. Sigh. 

This was a weird stance. That my sister needed the education but since I was a guy I needed to work hard and be a provider by doing a trade. In hindsight I believe now this was more about them staying together until the kids left. 

But I applied for a number of Engineering schools. I was an honor student in a College Prep curriculum. My counselors could not believe my parents were against me going to college. I mean this was the point of that school. My SAT scores were very high.

I never saw any repsonse from the schools. I was told I did not make it. So behind my parents back I joined the Navy for an education. I scored a perfect score on their competency test. I could get into mensa with it FWIW. So anyway this started the long journey and obsession to further my education, become an Engineer and be the best one I could be. I suppose this was what I needed. I could have easily just turned into one of those pre-adults. Years later upon returning home with my family, my dad was working as a modeler in an Engineering company. He told me he was wrong about things. He was able to introduce to them his son the Engineer.

Many years later when we were packing my moms things to bring her to Texas to help take care of her, my wife found my acceptance letters from the Engineering schools. Sobering. So I was not turned down after all. Why my mom kept them who knows. I never challenged her with this. There was no point.

What is my point? Despite my parents I found motivation inside myself.

I get this ad : Powerful Ad Shows What A Little Girl Hears When You Tell Her She's Pretty

All I would suggest is that parents not over compensate either way. How about you raise kids male and female to be motivated and self reliant. To encourage them to find their dreams and pursue them.

Lucky Man

Take The Long Way Home

So I have always taken the road less travelled. The hard way it seems. And now at this time in my life I just want to be wanted / loved for who I am and not what I provide. Yet I can see I was programmed this way. So as much as I rebelled I was following script.


----------



## Entropy3000

Deejo said:


> For example ...
> Do I have an issue with these men?
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...LcCMBI&usg=AFQjCNFH-Qta2OpH9FStA-dFWljuVMEDAA
> 
> No I don't. I don't feel compelled to mock, bully, or judge them.
> 
> Do I believe this character or kind of male makes me more attractive to MOST women?
> 
> You bet your ass I do.


Sigh.






Wow.






Ummmmm.





Wow.







Deep breath ... Exhale.








I think the closet I come to this is that I really love my trips to JavaONE. Hanging out with some real geekazoids. I wonder how many of them might be Bronies. FMR.

But wow. I got nothin here.

I would never consider treating any of them in a mean way. I think anyone who would do that hates themselves.
Would I want my daughter bringing home a Bronie? NFW. 

I do like to be ridin in Cowgirl mode though. But I think that is something different.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> For example ...
> Do I have an issue with these men?
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...LcCMBI&usg=AFQjCNFH-Qta2OpH9FStA-dFWljuVMEDAA
> 
> No I don't. I don't feel compelled to mock, bully, or judge them.
> 
> Do I believe this character or kind of male makes me more attractive to MOST women?
> 
> You bet your ass I do.



As an outsider, I'm trying to figure out if what's going on in that vid is real?
Is that really a new fad across there?

I've never seen anything like it...


----------



## Entropy3000

Caribbean Man said:


> As an outsider, I'm trying to figure out if what's going on in that vid is real?
> Is that really a new fad across there?
> 
> I've never seen anything like it...


I had the same feeling. I suspect it is real.

There are a number of related you tube vids.

Broneycon

Darwinian no doubt. Hard to watch.


Bronies in news

They like the music? Wow. I wonder if they do a version of November Rain


----------



## ocotillo

Deejo said:


> For example ...
> Do I have an issue with these men?


SNL recently did a humorous skit on that. Very weird.


----------



## Deejo

It's a cartoon. My 8 year old daughter and 12 year old autistic son absolutely love it. Every episode and movie (yes they have movies) teaches inarguably great moral messages. I really appreciate that my son understands and we can talk about the lesson and apply it to real life circumstances is valuable for us. Yes this is real. My kids found it on Netflix when searching for the cartoon.

I have friends that are geeks. I consistently work with and train guys that fall into the technically brilliant, but socially stunted category.

They are not bad men ... but at the same time they would not be defined as either masculine or desirable.

Do I think bronies are going to sweep the globe? No. But it illustrates that I believe regardless of geography ... this kind of young male exists.
And that segment is simply never, ever, going to define the stereotype of what passes for 'desirable' in the eyes of women, or be relatable in the eyes of traditionally masculine, confident, accomplished men.


----------



## ocotillo

I'm struggling to come up with an analogy from an earlier time. --Pretty much coming up empty. 

Mouse breeding was considered a noble sport in Victorian England at one time, but that had elements of animal husbandry and applied genetics with practical uses elsewhere.

Why My Little Pony? Why not Care Bears or some other children's show?


----------



## ReformedHubby

Deejo said:


> It's a cartoon. My 8 year old daughter and 12 year old autistic son absolutely love it. Every episode and movie (yes they have movies) teaches inarguably great moral messages. I really appreciate that my son understands and we can talk about the lesson and apply it to real life circumstances is valuable for us. Yes this is real. My kids found it on Netflix when searching for the cartoon.
> 
> I have friends that are geeks. I consistently work with and train guys that fall into the technically brilliant, but socially stunted category.
> 
> _*They are not bad men ... but at the same time they would not be defined as either masculine or desirable.*_


I hate to say it but before I watched the vid I had a picture in my head of what a Brony would look like. When I started watching it I actually felt kind of bad that the real images were pretty much an exact match of what I pictured in my head. There have always been guys like this though. I don't necessarily think its a reflection of where we're headed. 

And yes....I watch the show.....but only with my daughter.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Deejo said:


> It's a cartoon. My 8 year old daughter and 12 year old autistic son absolutely love it. Every episode and movie (yes they have movies) teaches inarguably great moral messages. I really appreciate that my son understands and we can talk about the lesson and apply it to real life circumstances is valuable for us. Yes this is real. My kids found it on Netflix when searching for the cartoon.
> 
> I have friends that are geeks. I consistently work with and train guys that fall into the technically brilliant, but socially stunted category.
> 
> They are not bad men ... but at the same time they would not be defined as either masculine or desirable.


My son is a self appointed "geek". His take is love a geek, you are going to work for one one day.  Although to be fair, he is 13 and in middle school the smart kids get picked on. His attitude is BRING IT. 

Geek doesn't NEED to mean awkward, though true enough those traits can coincide. My geeky middle schooler has a geeky GF and got hit on by a geeky gamer this weekend. (She turned around and hit on my husband immediately thereafter. I would have given good money to see that.)

Point? No idea. I don't claim to know what masculinity is. I just know I like it. And no, it does not include bronies.



> Do I think bronies are going to sweep the globe? No. But it illustrates that I believe regardless of geography ... this kind of young male exists.
> And that segment is simply never, ever, going to define the stereotype of what passes for 'desirable' in the eyes of women, or be relatable in the eyes of traditionally masculine, confident, accomplished men.


If this were my son, I would say, **** it. Be thyself. But that is just me.


----------



## Thundarr

Entropy3000 said:


> Interesting. I actually rebelled against my parents expectations of me or lack there of. Totally F'd up really.
> 
> My sister went to college. I wanted very much to be an Engineer. My mother did not want me leaving to go to college and my dad was dead set against anything but a trade. Sigh.
> 
> This was a weird stance. That my sister needed the education but since I was a guy I needed to work hard and be a provider by doing a trade. In hindsight I believe now this was more about them staying together until the kids left.
> 
> But I applied for a number of Engineering schools. I was an honor student in a College Prep curriculum. My counselors could not believe my parents were against me going to college. I mean this was the point of that school. My SAT scores were very high.
> 
> I never saw any repsonse from the schools. I was told I did not make it. So behind my parents back I joined the Navy for an education. I scored a perfect score on their competency test. I could get into mensa with it FWIW. So anyway this started the long journey and obsession to further my education, become an Engineer and be the best one I could be. I suppose this was what I needed. I could have easily just turned into one of those pre-adults. Years later upon returning home with my family, my dad was working as a modeler in an Engineering company. He told me he was wrong about things. He was able to introduce to them his son the Engineer.
> 
> Many years later when we were packing my moms things to bring her to Texas to help take care of her, my wife found my acceptance letters from the Engineering schools. Sobering. So I was not turned down after all. Why my mom kept them who knows. I never challenged her with this. There was no point.
> 
> What is my point? Despite my parents I found motivation inside myself.
> 
> I get this ad : Powerful Ad Shows What A Little Girl Hears When You Tell Her She's Pretty
> 
> All I would suggest is that parents not over compensate either way. How about you raise kids male and female to be motivated and self reliant. To encourage them to find their dreams and pursue them.
> 
> Lucky Man
> 
> Take The Long Way Home
> 
> So I have always taken the road less travelled. The hard way it seems. And now at this time in my life I just want to be wanted / loved for who I am and not what I provide. Yet I can see I was programmed this way. So as much as I rebelled I was following script.


I'm sure your parents had their reasons but none seem logical to me. Anyway I think you were in a minority of teenage boys who were self motivated and had drive early on like that. My parental guidance was similar to yours except I didn't think twice about college until a few years of working crap jobs, married, and with our first son. Then I decided my haphazzard direction wasn't going anywhere good and went to school while working.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: Musings on Masculinity*



ReformedHubby said:


> And yes....I watch the show.....but only with my daughter.


In the scheme of what they could be watching, I have no issues with MLP.

And yes, I've watched it with them. I have commented that the show would be cooler with ninjas and explosions ... and I was sternly told Ponies don't do that.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: Musings on Masculinity*



NobodySpecial said:


> My son is a self appointed "geek". His take is love a geek, you are going to work for one one day.  Although to be fair, he is 13 and in middle school the smart kids get picked on. His attitude is BRING IT.
> 
> Geek doesn't NEED to mean awkward, though true enough those traits can coincide. My geeky middle schooler has a geeky GF and got hit on by a geeky gamer this weekend. (She turned around and hit on my husband immediately thereafter. I would have given good money to see that.)
> 
> Point? No idea. I don't claim to know what masculinity is. I just know I like it. And no, it does not include bronies.
> 
> 
> 
> If this were my son, I would say, **** it. Be thyself. But that is just me.


I love these kids. I want them to be happy and have great experiences. But I do also want them to 'know' the stuff a man benefits from knowing ... like it is his likely his role to kill spiders and open jars. Therefore it is not conducive if he starts shrieking at the sight of a bug.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Deejo said:


> In the scheme of what they could be watching, I have no issues with MLP.
> 
> And yes, I've watched it with them. I have commented that the show would be cooler with ninjas and explosions ... and I was sternly told Ponies don't do that.


I think I might actually be a guy. When DH and I sit down to watch, DH always says yah you want tits and stuff that explode.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Deejo said:


> I love these kids. I want them to be happy and have great experiences. But I do also want them to 'know' the stuff a man benefits from knowing ... like it is his likely his role to kill spiders and open jars. Therefore it is not conducive if he starts shrieking at the sight of a bug.


I am not a big fan of shrieking in general. From anyone!


----------



## Entropy3000

I have always liked South Park .... Not obsessed though.

This seems different.


----------



## Thundarr

Entropy3000 said:


> I have always liked South Park .... Not obsessed though.
> 
> This seems different.


South park is made for men IMO. Some episodes are too funny but wow it can be offensive.


----------



## Deejo

I watched the documentary. And it was interesting. Started right in by explaining to people on the street what bronies are ... and what they thought of them as a result: pedophiles, gay, freaks, disturbed. Those were the words used.

One of the kids they profiled was from the UK, and has Aspergers, a form of autism. He was very articulate about why the show appealed to him. And boy could I relate in terms of my own child.

They also had a segment on men who served in the military ... and were bronies, and how they knew sharing their interest just would never be ok. 

I keep trying to find my own personal contrast to 'see' why this would be appealing to a male, young or old ... and I simply can't. I can see why others find it appealing, I just don't.

Closest I could come was acknowledging when I was a young teen, and then again somewhat tongue in cheek as a man, when someone would ask, who did you have as a role model, my answer used to be, "Optimus Prime."

It's so easy to think this masculinity stuff should be cut and dry.

Watch '300' for cripes sake, or Saving Private Ryan, or The Magnificent Seven for that matter. 

Then I watch my kids ... and a whole passle of young men watching MLP and discussing the 6 Aspects of Harmony ... Loyalty, Generosity, Honor, Kindness, Laughter, Magic.

Life is interesting.

I'm comfortable with my masculinity. Took me much longer than I would have liked to get there.

I've been thinking about and discussing this stuff for a good long time now.

I believe that masculine energy is what can make us a king, or a monster. All in how it is expressed.


----------



## heartsbeating

I read your post first and thought, what the hell are Bronies? Back one page (yes, I'm committing bad forum etiquette) and saw the clip. My mind frazzled with the scene of the guy dressed as the good doctor in front of the tardis and behind the pony.


----------



## minimalME

Racer said:


> Can put it in perspective for you. Single people living on their own. Is it probable a man will cook, do laundry, and clean for himself? *Is it probable a woman will build something herself or car maintenance like waxing it or replacing a headlight?* A man will cross over in most cases. It gets ‘iffy’ when talking about a woman crossing over into ‘manly’ things even though *it’s not rocket science or has physical limitations*… it’s just not something she’ll do. And it has nothing to do with stepping on the territory of a man (she’s living alone).


If I can do it myself, I will, but it is frustrating to be limited by my lack of strength.

I do all the yard work (sawing limbs, etc.) and I clean the pool. But I've tried several times to start the blower and power washer, and I'm just not strong enough. Pulling those cords drives me crazy.

And I've been thinking I should learn how to change a tire.

A male friend just posted this on fb:

Boyhood is a battlefield: The dangerous expectations of early masculinity - Salon.com


----------



## Entropy3000

coffee4me said:


> This is what I see still happening and the pendulum is not swinging the other way yet.
> 
> The commercial you posted is one of many encouraging girls
> Verizon Commercial 2014 | Inspire Her Mind - Extended | Verizon Wireless - YouTube
> 
> Always #LikeAGirl - YouTube
> 
> Ban Bossy â€” I'm Not Bossy. I'm the Boss. - YouTube
> 
> I searched empowering boys and got more commercials empowering and encouraging girls. Yet everything I hear and read says that boys are doing worse in school. More women are seeking higher education then men.
> 
> This is another interesting look at how the pendulum keeps swinging against young men.
> 
> The Title IX activist campaign against men's sports - YouTube


I am all for empowering young women. My girls played fast pitch softball. I coached my oldests softball team for a while and we would scrimmage against boys and kick their butts. The girls listened. The boys not so much. When I took them over they were horrible. I knew being female was not a handicap for them. Honestly I knew this intuitively. 

Of course growing up we used to go see the Raybestos Brakettes so I never had a view of women as being less capable. The women in my high school had real career choices ... perhaps this was progressive for the times. I see this now. I have always gravitated towards smart women. I have never been intimidated by them. Truly smart women are awesome. 

When I see these commercials and stereotypes I think, wow, this is archaic stuff because it just has not been part of my life experience. Then I think well maybe other folks are still living in the dark ages. They did not get the memo. 

While some people may feel an assertive woman is bossy, I do not. However, there are bossy people and I have no tolerance for them. They try to run over you and are not respectful of others. There are plenty of men and women like this and I refuse to cater to them. Truly skilled individuals men and women do not need to be this way. I get that culture can make them feel they need to be. I will partner with capable people period. Others ... not so much.

But to beat a dead Brony ... I mean horse there is no excuse to favor one child over another. That is wrong period. The feeling that we must throttle men to accomodate women is as sexist as anything else. Have faith that if you nurture young people they are very capable on their own. 

The important thing is to ensure that society does not throttle them. I think we can all see that spciety tries to throttle people. We saw this against women and I think we also see it against men now. Young men. All that we need to change men stuff. I do think this is Darwinian and not have strong men will cost us at some point. I may not be around to see it.

Indeed women should have equal opportunity for sports participation. We seem to take our laws whatever they are and pervert their intent ... sigh.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Entropy3000 said:


> I have always liked South Park .... Not obsessed though.
> 
> This seems different.


:rofl: I love South Park so much I bought the game. It was hilarious and offensive and awesome


----------



## Deejo

heartsbeating said:


> I read your post first and thought, what the hell are Bronies? Back one page (yes, I'm committing bad forum etiquette) and saw the clip. My mind frazzled with the scene of the guy dressed as the good doctor in front of the tardis and behind the pony.


Now see, I can totally see your husband going with you to a comic-con.

I have a hard time imagining you beaming with pride at the thought of hubs as a brony.

Was at a restaurant yesterday with the kids. D8 was watching the world cup. "I like when the players are good sports." she said after one player helped another player back to his feet.

"They're great athletes, but why aren't there any girls playing?"

I withered.

"Because honey, just like in a lot of big sports, like the World Series, or the Super Bowl, it's only men's teams."

And in her darling, big-eyed, incredulous way she then said, "Well, that's just wrong."

"Yes honey. Yes it is. Wouldn't be surprised if you help change that."


----------



## Jetranger

ScarletBegonias said:


> :rofl: I love South Park so much I bought the game. It was hilarious and offensive and awesome


Stick of Truth? I figured I'd spent enough in the Steam Sale already...

I think it's offensive but also makes good points about things people might be afraid to come out and talk about themselves.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

testpilot21 said:


> Stick of Truth? I figured I'd spent enough in the Steam Sale already...
> 
> I think it's offensive but also makes good points about things people might be afraid to come out and talk about themselves.


that's the one It was too short though!


----------



## SoWhat

Cultural factors get a lot of attention but I think some more basic stuff often leads these cultural factors, rather than follows them.

That is, men simply have less testosterone than they did 50 years ago. This is likely a result of artificial estrogens in water sources (and in many other things), sedentary lives (and the resultant obesity), and high carb-low fat diets. I also believe - without much evidence - that bombarding young men with psychoactive medication from an early age screws up their hormones.

I think this precipitous drop in testosterone goes a long way in explaining a lack of traditionally "masculine" behavior.


----------



## Deejo

SoWhat said:


> Cultural factors get a lot of attention but I think some more basic stuff often leads these cultural factors, rather than follows them.
> 
> That is, men simply have less testosterone than they did 50 years ago. This is likely a result of artificial estrogens in water sources (and in many other things), sedentary lives (and the resultant obesity), and high carb-low fat diets. I also believe - without much evidence - that bombarding young men with psychoactive medication from an early age screws up their hormones.
> 
> I think this precipitous drop in testosterone goes a long way in explaining a lack of traditionally "masculine" behavior.



As 'out there' as I'm sure that may sound to a lot of folks, can't say I disagree.

As someone who was diagnosed with low T AND has dealt with plenty of negative side effects from taking ADD meds, I've thought about this stuff.

Although no one is ringing any alarm bells ... probably because they don't know what to do even if they were to ring them, men having lower levels of T has been fairly well documented.

So, it may not necessarily be a culture of dudes watching My Little Pony that has had an impact on the display of, or appearance of masculinity but more subtly may be, our food supply and food culture that is laced with nutritionally barren staples, hormones and estrogen 'enhancing' compounds.

Soy's Negative Effects | Men's Health


----------



## SoWhat

Yeah, I took ADD meds for a few years. 
The first one I took had me severely depressed 24/7. Depression can start a viscous cycle for a lot of people - they do less, move less, experience less, and from that sort of inactivity often sink into a deeper depression. 

The second ADD medication I took made it nearly impossible for me to sleep. And testosterone production really gets going when you're sleeping - get less than 6 hours, and you're not making much of the stuff.

I'm off now and trying to deal with my "disorder" in a less personally-destructive way


----------



## ocotillo

coffee4me said:


> This is what I see still happening and the pendulum is not swinging the other way yet.
> 
> The commercial you posted is one of many encouraging girls
> Verizon Commercial 2014 | Inspire Her Mind - Extended | Verizon Wireless - YouTube


My children were all daughters so I've been squarely behind encouraging girls and young women to pursue whatever in life makes their heart glad regardless of stereotypes.

Towards that end, I've participated in Introduce a Girl to Engineering Day for years and years. But it was that experience that in part, moved me to start this thread. I don't think we've made that much of a difference.

As an example of what I mean by that, sure there are more female Architects today than there were sixty years ago, but Architecture as a profession has changed drastically during that time. Architecture today is a liberal art and it's not at all unusual for an interior designer to be an AIA member. 

Even strictly within the 'A' pages of an Architectural drawing set, specialty engineer/draftsmen in each trade that needs detailed drawings (e.g. Architectural metals, millwork, food service, stairs and elevators) must redraw them as fully engineered shop drawings prior to release to manufacturing. So yes, we've gotten more women into the field, but we've also strongly compartmentalized the design aspect from the engineering aspect with the latter still being mostly male.

I've watched and thought about this for years and years and don't see it changing anytime soon.


----------



## ocotillo

coffee4me said:


> Do women not pursue engineering because they feel discriminated against or do they not pursue it because it's not interesting to them?


Interesting question and today I lean towards the latter possibility.

Spatial skills are the stumbling block for most forms of engineering. Without them, it would be analogous to pursuing a career as a musician if you're tone deaf.

The evidence indicating that spatial skills are learned very early in life has mounted up pretty high. Even the middle school level is probably too late and in that respect, I think the authors of that video are missing the boat and failing to grasp the problem.

How do you interest a little girl in activities that develop these skills early on? You can make sure that they have all the Legos and Tinker Toys and K'Nex Building sets and Cuisenaire rods that any child could possibly want, but if your little girls would rather play with Beanie Babies and Plushies and Doll House sets, there's not much you can do to change that. 

My nephews begged and pleaded and threw tantrums to get those toys. With my daughters, it was like trying to get a finicky child to eat vegetables. And I'm not alone here. I've compared notes with many other parents on this. 

All this has led me to believe that the Nurture over Nature mantra of previous decades is only a partial truth. Even male monkeys prefer toys with wheels if given the choice. So I don't think men are ever going to be displaced from traditional male roles at home and in the workplace.


----------



## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> Now see, I can totally see your husband going with you to a comic-con.
> 
> I have a hard time imagining you beaming with pride at the thought of hubs as a brony.
> 
> Was at a restaurant yesterday with the kids. D8 was watching the world cup. "I like when the players are good sports." she said after one player helped another player back to his feet.
> 
> "They're great athletes, but why aren't there any girls playing?"
> 
> I withered.
> 
> "Because honey, just like in a lot of big sports, like the World Series, or the Super Bowl, it's only men's teams."
> 
> And in her darling, big-eyed, incredulous way she then said, "Well, that's just wrong."
> 
> "Yes honey. Yes it is. Wouldn't be surprised if you help change that."


You and your ex are obviously great parents for her mind to go there. And kudos for encouraging her.


We have indeed been to a comic-con! It was a mutual geek decision to go. He was a good sport and took a photo of me with Wolverine - then told me afterwards - "Remember, that's likely just Bob from accounting who likes to dress up as Wolverine on the weekends." hahah. It was good fun. My husband's into comic books. Saga, Y-The Last Man etc. If he was a brony though? I'll admit I'd wonder what the heck was going on. That would not float my boat.


----------



## Caribbean Man

coffee4me said:


> Do women not pursue engineering because they feel discriminated against or do they not pursue it because it's not interesting to them? They would rather pursue other degrees.
> 
> Like the video says do women not participate in college competitive sports because they don't have the opportunity to do so or is it because they are not interested in physical competition?


Interesting questions coffee.

I can tell you about what applies in our country , what researchers have found.

At the secondary school level ( high school) girls out perform boys in all areas except math and physics.

At the university level , a clear pattern emerges. 
Almost all the engineering fields are saturated and dominated by men. Mechanical , Civil , Electrical , Petroleum , Chemical ,almost every single field of engineering is dominated by men.

Women dominate Business ,Management , Finance, Humanities , Political Sciences , Medicine , Law , Sociology , Arts , etc.

More than half the lawyers and judges in our country are women, both old and young . Even our Prime Minister is female and before politics , she was a senior counsel ,and a lecturer in constitutional law at University.

BTW , tertiary education is free down here.

It was also found that although more women were more likely to pursue a degree , the males that opted out , usually started their own businesses.
In other words , about 80% of new entrepreneurs are males , and most of them only had a college degree.


Regarding the competitive sports, women are just as likely to play professional , competitive sports down here as men . My take is because equal opportunity exists. Both government and corporate sponsors pump billions of dollars into sports , both at the lower levels and the elite levels.

Also worthy of mention is the performing arts . Girls are more likely than boys to get into it .


----------



## Personal

My wife and I are bringing up two children one is a boy turning 14 and the other is a girl who is turning 11.

When I say I worry about our son it is in part because he isn't like our daughter.

Our daughter is a driven and highly determined individual who doesn't give up or give in, who at this stage of her life is a high performing student who enjoys and excels at mathematics, english/writing, science, sport up to regional level so far (netball, basketball & running), music (clarinet & vocal group) and visual art. She is also quite social as well and visits friends as they visit her. Unfortunately she is also sometimes too aggressive, inconsiderate and also tends to believe she is the smartest person in a room.

Our daughter has also always hated cuddles since she was a baby through to today.

Our son is highly imaginative, usually considerate and often generous, he is also a negotiator and a peacemaker. Unfortunately he is also a poor to average performing student in all areas, to the point that we are concerned about his abilities with literacy and numeracy. So we have over many years had to and continue to invest time and resources trying to lift him. He also tends to lack drive and motivation and often easily gives up, whenever he finds something a little difficult to do or achieve.

Even though we'd like to, we genuinely can't say he is good at anything particularly in terms of talents or academic achievement.

He is also lucky to have a tall adonis like body with a handsome/pretty face he has six packs on top of six packs (yet seems awkward and lacks confidence), despite the fact he doesn't really like sport. Yet we have always ensured our children swim from a young age so he participates in squads even though he doesn't want to, and plays basketball as well once a week during the season. He is a very fast runner yet has no interest in competition at all so tends to lean towards the bare minimum he can get away with in all of his activities.

We never see any of his 'friends', yet when allowed on the Xbox which is only a weekend privilege for the kids. He plays with other boys from school regularly yet they don't go to his house and he doesn't go to their houses either.

Our son tends to get more attention than our daughter since we worry about him and want to encourage him to do better than he does, by the same token we can't live his life for him and likewise we wouldn't want to either.

Our son has also always loved cuddles since he was a baby through to today.

Despite having a MENSA qualifying IQ score I do not have a university education. Whereas my wife continues to study and is also university educated with a science degree amongst other qualifications.

Although my wife has a sister, sister in-law and niece in-law who are teachers and a school principal we both feel that the Australian education system as it operates today tends to unfairly favour girls over boys.


----------



## Entropy3000

Personal said:


> My wife and I are bringing up two children one is a boy turning 14 and the other is a girl who is turning 11.
> 
> When I say I worry about our son it is in part because he isn't like our daughter.
> 
> Our daughter is a driven and highly determined individual who doesn't give up or give in, who at this stage of her life is a high performing student who enjoys and excels at mathematics, english/writing, science, sport up to regional level so far (netball, basketball & running), music (clarinet & vocal group) and visual art. She is also quite social as well and visits friends as they visit her. Unfortunately she is also sometimes too aggressive, inconsiderate and also tends to believe she is the smartest person in a room.
> 
> Our daughter has also always hated cuddles since she was a baby through to today.
> 
> Our son is highly imaginative, usually considerate and often generous, he is also a negotiator and a peacemaker. Unfortunately he is also a poor to average performing student in all areas, to the point that we are concerned about his abilities with literacy and numeracy. So we have over many years had to and continue to invest time and resources trying to lift him. He also tends to lack drive and motivation and often easily gives up, whenever he finds something a little difficult to do or achieve.
> 
> Even though we'd like to, we genuinely can't say he is good at anything particularly in terms of talents or academic achievement.
> 
> He is also lucky to have a tall adonis like body with a handsome/pretty face he has six packs on top of six packs (yet seems awkward and lacks confidence), despite the fact he doesn't really like sport. Yet we have always ensured our children swim from a young age so he participates in squads even though he doesn't want to, and plays basketball as well once a week during the season. He is a very fast runner yet has no interest in competition at all so tends to lean towards the bare minimum he can get away with in all of his activities.
> 
> We never see any of his 'friends', yet when allowed on the Xbox which is only a weekend privilege for the kids. He plays with other boys from school regularly yet they don't go to his house and he doesn't go to their houses either.
> 
> Our son tends to get more attention than our daughter since we worry about him and want to encourage him to do better than he does, by the same token we can't live his life for him and likewise we wouldn't want to either.
> 
> Our son has also always loved cuddles since he was a baby through to today.
> 
> Despite having a MENSA qualifying IQ score I do not have a university education. Whereas my wife continues to study and is also university educated with a science degree amongst other qualifications.
> 
> Although my wife has a sister, sister in-law and niece in-law who are teachers and a school principal we both feel that the Australian education system as it operates today tends to unfairly favour girls over boys.


Things could easier have changed but when I was his age most of the boys I knew were no so motivated by school period. I was not. During high school this changed when I decided what wanted to be. I got very interested in math and science. It was very common for girls to have the higher grades thru middles school.

All I can say is that there is huge potential for change for both of them in the next few years. 

Buckle up.


----------



## Personal

Entropy3000 said:


> Buckle up.


Thanks, I shall.


----------



## Entropy3000

ocotillo said:


> Interesting question and today I lean towards the latter possibility.
> 
> *Spatial skills are the stumbling block for most forms of engineering.* Without them, it would be analogous to pursuing a career as a musician if you're tone deaf.
> 
> The evidence indicating that spatial skills are learned very early in life has mounted up pretty high. Even the middle school level is probably too late and in that respect, I think the authors of that video are missing the boat and failing to grasp the problem.
> 
> How do you interest a little girl in activities that develop these skills early on? You can make sure that they have all the Legos and Tinker Toys and K'Nex Building sets and Cuisenaire rods that any child could possibly want, but if your little girls would rather play with Beanie Babies and Plushies and Doll House sets, there's not much you can do to change that.
> 
> My nephews begged and pleaded and threw tantrums to get those toys. With my daughters, it was like trying to get a finicky child to eat vegetables. And I'm not alone here. I've compared notes with many other parents on this.
> 
> All this has led me to believe that the Nurture over Nature mantra of previous decades is only a partial truth. Even male monkeys prefer toys with wheels if given the choice. So I don't think men are ever going to be displaced from traditional male roles at home and in the workplace.


BINGO. My forte in Engineering is that I think spatially. Not just with physical things. I visulaize relationships. I have to convert them into words. Not always easy to do.

Math can be important to Engineering of course. It is a way of thinking. Many women are superior at Math.

I have been in Engineering since 1982.

I grew up in the 60s/70s. Not a large number of female Engineers period for a number of reasons. But I will be the first to tell you female Engineers were not encouraged in my view. I did what I could do. Like hiring them when others would not. I always hired people on the basis of their abilities and I never reated them as second class Engineers.

Engineers can be very quirky people. They think differently than many others. They often work long hours and may be challenged to have a life balance. They tend to have high IQs and uncommon skills. BUT, nothing is free. I call these high performance people. Kind of a euphemism but they can be difficult to manage. Not always high skills in people relationships.

Anyway, my group is made up of about a dozen to fifteen very senior Engineers. It varies as the turnover is high. Three are women. Two of them are single mom's, the third got married at 35 and works four days a week. The job is demanding beyond skills. We can work crazy hours. We architect and lead projects. The women have to deal with a prejudice that is flat wrong. Even today. So we have their backs as much as we can but the fact remains they are held to a higher standard. Not just by men. They may actually receive a bigger challenge from other women.


----------



## Caribbean Man

coffee4me said:


> CM what's the percentage of women in college vs men? Here they are 60-70% female.
> 
> Also do your schools have free sports programs at primary education level?
> 
> Here is you want a child to get good in any given sport , you pay.


I think ( can't remember the exact figures now ) but I know for sure that the female percentage would be higher.

Remember demographically, women outnumber men here about 2:1.

Yes , there are lots sports programs at the primary age level , but it isn't in the schools. The sponsors tend to focus directly in the communities.

At the secondary level however ,the programs are introduced into the curriculum .

Yes , they are all free.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Entropy3000 said:


> BINGO. My forte in Engineering is that I think spatially. Not just with physical things. I visulaize relationships. I have to convert them into words. Not always easy to do.
> 
> Math can be important to Engineering of course. It is a way of thinking. Many women are superior at Math.
> 
> I have been in Engineering since 1982.
> 
> I grew up in the 60s/70s. Not a large number of female Engineers period for a number of reasons. But I will be the first to tell you female Engineers were not encouraged in my view. I did what I could do. Like hiring them when others would not. I always hired people on the basis of their abilities and I never reated them as second class Engineers.
> 
> Engineers can be very quirky people. They think differently than many others. They often work long hours and may be challenged to have a life balance. They tend to have high IQs and uncommon skills. BUT, nothing is free. I call these high performance people. Kind of a euphemism but they can be difficult to manage. Not always high skills in people relationships.
> 
> Anyway, my group is made up of about a dozen to fifteen very senior Engineers. It varies as the turnover is high. Three are women. Two of them are single mom's, the third got married at 35 and works four days a week. The job is demanding beyond skills. We can work crazy hours. We architect and lead projects. The women have to deal with a prejudice that is flat wrong. Even today. So we have their backs as much as we can but the fact remains they are held to a higher standard. Not just by men. They may actually receive a bigger challenge from other women.


Interesting.

In my Engineering class , there were only two females as compared to about 25 males ( can't remember the exact figure).

They both excelled in advanced calculus .

However on the practical side of things , stuff like Engineering Drawing and Design ( Auto CAD ) , Plant Tech and Process Engineering , they had problems.
Enter our " study group " concept.
We formed the group especially to help them. 

Interestingly enough , they weren't really the " feminine " types , they were more like " tomboys " hanging out with us etc.
But they fit in our group as if they were men.


----------



## Racer

I think the spatial skills thing isn't it. I'm an architect. I'd say about half the architects now and these days are female (it seems like that anyway). I see it as more a left brain / right brain thing mixed with 'image'. Unlike engineers, architects tap into that creativity side a lot more generally have 'big egos'. Architecture seems "cooler". So more women go into that than engineering which seems dull and too 'math based' numbers crunching. Ever seen the enrollment in Interior Design? Almost entirely female. So that creative component is key. Too bad engineering doesn't tout that side well. Funny to me is mechanical engineers I always think of as HVAC... I know a car designer and a real 'rocket scientist' (designs rockets) that majored in mechanical engineering.... 

Oddly enough, my assistant was majoring in Industrial Design. Why? Because she really wanted to design furniture and that major gave her the skillsets a lot more than Interior Design. Sort of odd thinking about this cute little girl going to town on a metal lathe and working with heavy equipment.


----------



## norajane

ocotillo said:


> My children were all daughters so I've been squarely behind encouraging girls and young women to pursue whatever in life makes their heart glad regardless of stereotypes.


I think people should do that with their sons, too. Boys and men don't need to fall into stereotypical roles to be considered masculine, do they? I don't think so, personally.

A large majority of the guys in my college wouldn't have known how to fix a car, or repair the plumbing, nor did they want to. Many of them went to prep schools or boarding schools, and they knew how to learn, how to compete for grades, graduate schools, and jobs (not sports). Some of them were musicians and artists; most became doctors, finance types, scientists, lawyers, and professors and they take their cars to a mechanic and call the plumber when needed. They turned out just fine, and their wives and children think so, too. They aren't less masculine for it, either.

The guys I work with at my company are in sales, sales management, or technical IT work. They, too, don't spend their weekends fixing their cars or repairing the roof. They hire people to do it, and spend their weekends with their wives and kids. They are masculine, but don't express it through bar fights and furnace repair. Maybe they smoke cigars on the golf course. 

There's nothing wrong with or non-masculine about boys who are into intellectual or artistic pursuits over physical, destructive or sporty ones. I don't think we should be telling boys there is only one way to be masculine.


----------



## naiveonedave

OTOH Nora, we in the US get bombarded by anti-masculine all the time. Just saying....


----------



## ocotillo

Racer said:


> I think the spatial skills thing isn't it. I'm an architect...I see it as more a left brain / right brain thing mixed with 'image'.


Well that's kinda what I was driving at. My late grandfather was an Architect/Engineer with degrees in both fields. According to him, this was not nearly as unusual in the 1920's and 30's as it was later on.

I think I could make a pretty good case that not every single Architect today has the spatial skills to hold dual degrees, especially those specializing in interiors. For example, what would you think of a fellow Architect responsible for a T.I. on one floor of an *existing* highrise, who moves a structural column on paper because it was, "In the way..." 

This isn't to denigrate the creative side of design. That is a talent that I'm in awe of it. I don't know if people learn it early in life or if they are just born with it, but I know that I don't have it.


----------



## Entropy3000

Architect has a traditional meaning for many.

In Engineering it is usually a very senior Engineer who deals with the bigger picture. The overall architecture of the design. So we have Enterprise Architects who design computer based application solutions and Infrastructure Architects that design the infrastructure to satisfy the application requirements. They often lead the technical project and work closely with the Project / Program Manager. They are concerned with technology but also people and finances.


----------



## ocotillo

norajane said:


> I think people should do that with their sons, too.


I agree completely with that.

Some of this, I think speaks to personal perceptions about what is and is not masculine, which is why I was curious what people thought of the Ebbets photographs of the steelworkers in the 1930's. 



norajane said:


> They, too, don't spend their weekends fixing their cars or repairing the roof. They hire people to do it, and spend their weekends with their wives and kids.


What gender do you think those repair people are more likely to be? If the answer is male, I think that would dovetail with what I had in mind with this thread. Giving everyone (Boys and girls alike) the opportunity to do whatever they want to do with their life is not crowding men out of these roles at work and at home.


----------



## norajane

ocotillo said:


> What gender do you think those repair people are more likely to be? If the answer is male, I think that would dovetail with what I had in mind with this thread. Giving everyone (Boys and girls alike) the opportunity to do whatever they want to do with their life is not crowding men out of these roles at work and at home.


Well, the roofers/contractors in my neighborhood are mostly male, immigrants with limited English skills and little higher education education. I grew up with people like that since my family is mostly people like that. Their opportunities are limited to those kinds of jobs whether they want them or not.

I don't know all the mechanics around here, but I take my car to a woman-owned and operated shop. It's her family business, she knows her car stuff, and has some other female mechanics as well that work for her.


----------



## ocotillo

norajane said:


> I don't know all the mechanics around here, but I take my car to a woman-owned and operated shop. It's her family business, she knows her car stuff, and has some other female mechanics as well that work for her.


Interesting. According to the DOL Women's Bureau, women make up about 1.8% of Automotive Service Technicians. In more specialized fields like Aviation, Diesel heavy equipment, trucks and buses, the figure is even less.


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## Caribbean Man

I have never , ever seen a female auto mechanic or a garage owned by a woman.

However I've seen and met women who understood basic auto & diesel principles and who knew their stuff like any man. Women who knew how to supercharge an engine , who fully understood intercoolers and the pressure volume ratios. Although they knew the theory , auto mechanics is a dirty , greasy job that requires brute strength at times.

That's why mechanics are called " grease monkeys." 

The women I know who are into cars usually prefer behind the steering wheel on the racetrack , legal or illegal.


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## ScarletBegonias

Female owned garage  Makes me proud for some reason 
Woman opens sixth automotive collision repair in Catonsville - baltimoresun.com


----------



## Caribbean Man

Personal said:


> Lets not forget Beatrice Shilling.


She's a classic example of what I meant.

One of my older aunts had the distinction of being the first female Mechanical Engineer in our country. 
She was largely responsible for me getting into the field many years later. She entered into the aviation industry and later settled into Avionics.

But still , auto mechanics isn't a career path the average women seem inclined to pursue.
The irony is that there is lots of money to be made in that field.

But people tend to look down at mechanics as uneducated , uncouth .


----------



## ocotillo

Caribbean Man said:


> But still , auto mechanics isn't a career path the average women seem inclined to pursue. The irony is that there is lots of money to be made in that field.
> 
> But people tend to look down at mechanics as uneducated, uncouth.


Yes! Thank you.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

norajane said:


> A large majority of the guys in my college wouldn't have known how to fix a car, or repair the plumbing, nor did they want to. Many of them went to prep schools or boarding schools, and they knew how to learn, how to compete for grades, graduate schools, and jobs (not sports). Some of them were musicians and artists; most became doctors, finance types, scientists, lawyers, and professors and they take their cars to a mechanic and call the plumber when needed. They turned out just fine, and their wives and children think so, too. They aren't less masculine for it, either.
> 
> The guys I work with at my company are in sales, sales management, or technical IT work. They, too, don't spend their weekends fixing their cars or repairing the roof. They hire people to do it, and spend their weekends with their wives and kids. They are masculine, but don't express it through bar fights and furnace repair. Maybe they smoke cigars on the golf course.


 Just jumping in here, this being the 1st post I read.. this seems to be more about white collar vs Blue collar skills.. nothing wrong with either.... 

Tell me what good a man would be IF he was blue collar, couldn't afford to join a country club smoking cigars on the lawn.. but also didn't have the skills to fix his beater car.. or sauder some pipes together, patching his leaky roof ?? 

As a woman... I deeply admire the Man who works with his hands..a man in boots has a great appeal to me over the man in a suit...and that's good cause the man in the suit would more likely want a high success woman anyway...and that's not me.

I'll take this >>









My self & husband are not "well to do" people.. so I am so thankful he has these sort of skills..he built his own truck ...and for most of our marriage, how we managed to make it .. respectably... is because he/ we did all our own stuff... from building chimneys to laying cement.. He just wasn't the college bound type.. (he did take a little computer school but never got anything out of it).... 

Sometimes I feel people look down on Blue collar workers... the world needs all sorts of men..and various skills..... I don't want to pit them against each other...not everyone would even want to hang out at he Golf course with Doctors and Lawyers.. 

My H's skills have gotten us through life & we've saved tremendously over the yrs... sometimes when he gets in a bind, he makes his own tools to finish a Job.. he might start swearing out there but he's got this attitude that he's going to get "the Mother" .. and he always manages to do it... it might take a day or 2 --but he gets the job DONE...and something in me, small as it may be. I just ADORE THAT.. I am so proud of him..

I know I wouldn't have the patience ..... A man gets the job done, ya know.. he doesn't quit. That's what I see.



> There's nothing wrong with or non-masculine about boys who are into intellectual or artistic pursuits over physical, destructive or sporty ones. I don't think we should be telling boys there is only one way to be masculine.


 The majority of women will always look to how successful the man is so their lives will run smoother...it would be a plus if he could HIRE the grease Monkey Mechanics.. and Roofers..this would up his Alpha appeal to most women.


----------



## jld

Dh is an engineer, but he grew up on a farm, so he is used to manual labor. I really respect that about him.


----------



## Thundarr

norajane and SimplyAmorous touched on blue collar / white collar.

I've been both. I remember rebuilding and swapping an engine, laying in grass, gravel, and fire ants, on a hot weekend because I had no choice if we were going to make it to work that Monday. It was miserable but like SA said, the job had to be done and I didn't have money to pay someone else. 

Fast forward to now. I no longer have to do it all myself and haven't had to in a while. Just so happens that I hate working on cars. I don't have the patience for it. So if I have money to pay a mechanic to keep them running then I'm still getting the job done. Just in a different way. 

In my case blue collar to white collar were insignificant (Machinist to Engineer). Making a little more money was the what actually made a difference.

I'm a little jealous of guys who like to tinker with and fix up cars though. I did do the bodywork and paint on my truck (again when I was younger) which was kind of fun but the thoughts of actually restoring an old car from the chassis up seems daunting now.


----------



## jld

Oh, Thundarr. Fire ants are the _worst._ I don't know how you stood that.


----------



## Trickster

My bio can fix anything... There home has flooded several times in the past. He did all the Sheetrock work himeself. He can repair his own plumbing, install a hot water heater, install tubs, he had to gut their whole downstairs, tore down walls and added new ones, and do electrical work. He can pretty much do anything... Now my nephew can do a lot as well...

My sister doesn't appreciate that at all. She doesn't act like she does.. I am sure he has saved them many many thousands of dollars...He works for the Dept of Transportation repairing roadsigns and doesn't make a whole lot of money.. Awesome health insurance though...I think she expects more from him...


----------



## Thundarr

jld said:


> Oh, Thundarr. Fire ants are the _worst._ I don't know how you stood that.


I had a bunch on me before I realized it. Yes they do suck. I'm not allergic so I just had the normal annoying bumps hurt if I attempted to scratch them. I ended up killing them with gasoline.


----------



## Trickster

Thundarr said:


> norajane and SimplyAmorous touched on blue collar / white collar.
> 
> I've been both. I remember rebuilding and swapping an engine, laying in grass, gravel, and fire ants, on a hot weekend because I had no choice if we were going to make it to work that Monday. It was miserable but like SA said, the job had to be done and I didn't have money to pay someone else.
> 
> Fast forward to now. I no longer have to do it all myself and haven't had to in a while. Just so happens that I hate working on cars. I don't have the patience for it. So if I have money to pay a mechanic to keep them running then I'm still getting the job done. Just in a different way.
> 
> In my case blue collar to white collar were insignificant (Machinist to Engineer). Making a little more money was the what actually made a difference.
> 
> I'm a little jealous of guys who like to tinker with and fix up cars though. I did do the bodywork and paint on my truck (again when I was younger) which was kind of fun but the thoughts of actually restoring an old car from the chassis up seems daunting now.



I am envious as well... In HS, I took auto mechanics...I rebuilt the engine on my Dads beat up 69 for van and it actually worked...it just took a long time. I was OK at it, but new just enough to skrew something up without guidance..

When I started with Brown & Root, I worked hard and I was promoted. When I was the pipefitter Assistant band had to cut a 24 inch pipe with a cutting torch. My cut wasn't exactly straight. The pipe fitter had to fix it... He just said I would get better with practice and admitted his first time was worse... I think he was just trying to make me feel better...

Then in the Navy, I was a Machinest Mate working in the enginroom. When I was tested I scored very high for the mechanical side, so the put me in the engine room. Again, I was OK doing it, but others were able to do the job a lot faster...

So after the Navy, I took AC&R... In the classroom, I did great, when I actually had to fix a unit or use the oxygen acelyne to make a weld... Wasn't all that good at it...

I am not a Mr. Fix it. I did install new faucets on all my sinks. Yay! I know my limitations...


I am glad I make enough money to pay somebody if I have too...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Thundarr said:


> norajane and SimplyAmorous touched on blue collar / white collar.
> 
> I've been both. I remember rebuilding and swapping an engine, laying in grass, gravel, and fire ants, on a hot weekend because I had no choice if we were going to make it to work that Monday. It was miserable but like SA said, the job had to be done and I didn't have money to pay someone else.
> 
> Fast forward to now. I no longer have to do it all myself and haven't had to in a while. Just so happens that I hate working on cars. I don't have the patience for it. So if I have money to pay a mechanic to keep them running then I'm still getting the job done. Just in a different way.


 Yeah...this makes life easier , doesn't it....

We're at the point in our lives now , that he is taking the harder things to the mechanic because we do have money to spare & we can relax...but sometimes he'll still choose to do it himself.. when we were younger, we even had money then but we were SO focused on getting a house & paying it off as quickly as possible...so we did things the hard way.. it was a learning experience..but it had it's purpose...


----------



## Thundarr

Trickster said:


> I am envious as well... In HS, I took auto mechanics...I rebuilt the engine on my Dads beat up 69 for van and it actually worked...it just took a long time. I was OK at it, but new just enough to skrew something up without guidance..
> 
> When I started with Brown & Root, I worked hard and I was promoted. When I was the pipefitter Assistant band had to cut a 24 inch pipe with a cutting torch. My cut wasn't exactly straight. The pipe fitter had to fix it... He just said I would get better with practice and admitted his first time was worse... I think he was just trying to make me feel better...
> 
> Then in the Navy, I was a Machinest Mate working in the enginroom. When I was tested I scored very high for the mechanical side, so the put me in the engine room. Again, I was OK doing it, but others were able to do the job a lot faster...
> 
> So after the Navy, I took AC&R... In the classroom, I did great, when I actually had to fix a unit or use the oxygen acelyne to make a weld... Wasn't all that good at it...
> 
> I am not a Mr. Fix it. I did install new faucets on all my sinks. Yay! I know my limitations...
> 
> 
> I am glad I make enough money to pay somebody if I have too...


I was good at mechanical but not so good at finishing big projects. ADHD I think. I'm better at it now though (still not great). I remodeled a rental home some years back. Foundation, floor, sub floor, sheet rock throughout including new ceiling, all new windows, complete new kitchen and bathroom. It was a big project I'd never have completed when young.

My brother put in the AC and ducts (I tried to help) though and I paid my other brother to put a new roof on after I'd scraped the old shingles off and repaired a few spots. Also paid someone to put vinyl siding on.

So yea I ran out of steam and had to shell out some $$$$ for some of it .


----------



## Thundarr

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yeah...this makes life easier , doesn't it....
> 
> We're at the point in our lives now , that he is taking the harder things to the mechanic because we do have money to spare & we can relax...but sometimes he'll still choose to do it himself.. when we were younger, we even had money then but we were SO focused on getting a house & paying it off as quickly as possible...so we did things the hard way.. it was a learning experience..but it had it's purpose...


Yea same here. I'll still do some simple repairs and maintenance depending on motivation. Oil, breaks, alternator, air, etc. But if it's more than a 2-3 hour job then I avoid it. Nora probably hit on something about the definition of masculine. I really don't like doing simple repairs on cars but it seems like I'm supposed to do them .

It's really cool that your husband and son's prepared and painted that car. I'm not crazy about the color though (too blue for me)


----------



## jld

Thundarr said:


> I had a bunch on me before I realized it. Yes they do suck. I'm not allergic so I just had the normal annoying bumps hurt if I attempted to scratch them. I ended up killing them with gasoline.


We moved to India for 3 years back in 2008. The first night in our house there, they crawled onto our mattresses and started biting us. And they were all over! Such painful bites!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Thundarr said:


> Yea same here. I'll still do some simple repairs and maintenance depending on motivation. Oil, breaks, alternator, air, etc. But if it's more than a 2-3 hour job then I avoid it. Nora probably hit on something about the definition of masculine. I really don't like doing simple repairs on cars but it seems like I'm supposed to do them .
> 
> It's really cool that your husband and son's prepared and painted that car. * I'm not crazy about the color though (too blue for me)*


It's *too BLUE* for us too... that's why it's an "OOPS" !.. We visited Auto Zone afterwards thinking of repainting it, these guys were Lookin' as we pulled in.. had a conversation with the worker.. he tells us "it looks good' -H told him he is just being nice... I told him to lay it out there ...then he says.. "well.. I've seen worse.. bright orange.. Purple".. we just laughed.. :rofl: 

We're gonna suck it up though.. too lazy to repaint.. I put it on Facebook.. I told them all they could laugh.. seemed the majority thought it looked great.. So we'll stand out a bit in our Smurf mobile.....It's Ok..I can think of worse things... 

I helped grind, wet sand .. paper half of it and repainted all the detailed black after we pulled the paper off ..and I picked out those snazzy wheel covers...it needed all the help it could get .


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## jld

I think it's cute, SA!


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