# NEWBIE. Is it too late? (Kinda long, sorry)



## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Hi everyone. I'm at a loss and thats why I have joined this site, to get advice/feedback. I posted this on another board, but it is probably better suited here.

Ok. Me and My wife have been married 5 years now, together for 8. We have 2 children, one 6 and one 2 and she is pregnant with our third. We had an amazing marriage and a fantastic sex life until last year. I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety and it led to me losing my job, which was hard. My wife started working full time to make up the money but she was getting stressed with me due to my illness. This led to a crisis talk and I agreed to change and sort myself out and she said she would be more supportive. This was Jan/feb 2011. Fast forward to April 2011 and we decide to give up smoking. She was prescribed Champix, I couldn't take them due to my history of depression. After being on Champix for 6 weeks, she changed from a loving wife into a sexless monster, constantly in a mood. She barely spoke to me and had a constant frown. However she was out drinking with friends almost every night off she had and drinking to excess. This went on til about september when I confronted her about it all and she said she wasn't happy and that she wanted another child. We sorted ourselves out and she got pregnant. However the problems started again about a month ago. I confronted her again as it was hard for me living with someone I love but who showed me no compassion or interest. She refused to talk to me face to face and instead insisted on leaving the house and conversing via text message. She basically said she is not happy anymore, My illness isn't improving, it was a mistake to get pregnant by me again, she doesn't think she wants the baby and she doesn't know if she wants to be married. I offered to go back into treatment, to really, REALLY intensify efforts to find work, etc, but she hasn't responded.
I asked her if she was seeing someone else as she is showing almost ALL the signs of infidelity. Also, she has a male workfriend who keeps cropping up everywhere. She goes over a friends house to help and he's there. She goes for a drink with friends, he's there. He walks her home from her friends sometimes, even though it is a mile out of his way. He often texts her (nothing too suspicious) when he's out drinking and visits her in work. He refers to her as 'miss' often and usually ends his texts.facebook messages to her with a 'X'. She has said there is nothing going on but has also said people have spoke about them before because of the way they are with each other. I can find no hard evidence but can't stop suspecting.
Sorry to go on for so long, but once i started, I had to get it out. What can I do? Is it over?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Yeah, sounds like she is cheating.

1. Are you sure the new baby is yours?
2. She's pregnant and still drinking? No No No!
3. Find this coworker and see if he's got a GF or a wife - you need to reach out and expose it to them.


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks for the reply Shaggy. Firstly, I can't say for certain that the child is mine. We didn't have sex as much as we did to conceive our first two, but that doesn't really mean too much. She doesn't drink now, but before the pregnancy it was all the time and it was always with her best friend, A guy her best friend was secretly seeing and the guy in question. Come to think of it, another time she went to a house party with these people and more. She text me at midnight-ish to say she was just leaving, but didn't get home for two hours later. When I questioned her about this she said her and her female best friend had stopped to chat in a playground and lost track of time. This was july/august 2011 and when my suspicions really started. I have access to her phone records but there is little texting between her and the OM. They do however work together a lot and have the same social circle, so it would be easy to communicate face to face. As for him having a wife/Gf, I know he doesn't as I ised to work with him too. I know where he lives and am even friends with him on facebook.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Sounds like she is cheating but the information you give is mostly subjective.

As you have access to his facebook page do the following:

Copy his list of friends to a secure word document, include the web link to their pages and test the link after you saved it in word to see if it takes you to the pages. You ay need this information later on if indeed she is cheating with him.

You will have to start snooping to verify if she is cheating with this guy. At the same time I suggest you slip into a 180 and straighten yourself out, it does not sound like you are in a great place. 

Once the baby is born have a DNA test to confirm you are the father. 

Why is your wife going out so often without you. Do you do the same? She is acting like she is single and her behavior will attract the attention of other men 

The 180 is in the newbie link below, click on it and read the posts:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Why on earth do people think their spouse can go out drinking with other men and nothing will happen? I mean, we hear this all the time here, and no insult to this OP but , it just sounds so stupid as to be incomprhensible.

WTF, do you have to get hit by a truck to learn to stay out of the road? So you sit home babysitting with two kids while your wife is out partying with other men and now you are all confused about what is going on? 

What have you done to cure the depression? What have you done to get a job? How attractive does this make you to your wife?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

The 180
April 15 2011 at 8:48 AM Ami (Login Amistandingstill)
Healing Moderator 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So many on here are at a loss at what to do with a WS who is
fence sitting, cake-eating, ignoring boundaries, still seeing and/or contacting the other person, etc...

Many BS's are urged to go No Contact with their WS after ALL ELSE has failed.


This 180 list may help.
--------------------------


For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.


2 things to think about if you do this:

1) You have to do the 180 list NOT to be manipulative but because it's the right thing to do for you. You have to heal from this experience. You have to back off for your own sanity now. You have to have a plan and know that you will be a better person with or without them after all is said and done -- that you will live and learn and move on no matter what. So you have to be geniune when you follow these ideas, rather than faking it and being insincere because your only goal is to get them back. That's not what you want to do. Having a certain person as our spouse is not a need, it's a want. When I wrote down a list of all the definite needs in my life, I realized that almost everything beyond food, clothing and shelter is a want. 10 seconds after I looked at the list, I stopped making decisions based on emotion. That's when I realized that my wanting to have her was causing me to beg and plead for her to come back. That was driving her away more so I stopped doing it immediately. In doing my own version of the 180 list I could tell nearly an immediate change in her behavior.

2) Realize that when your spouse sees your new attitude they are very likely to be a little jealous or at least have some curiosity about what's going on in your life to cause this change. However, they very well may react the same way towards you for some time (especially if they read books or go to message boards also). REALIZE that this tactic can also work simultaneously on you if the spouse begins to likewise. Be aware of it and plan to have your own feelings of jealousy and curiosity in advance. However, like with #1 above, if you're doing the 180 list to better yourself and everyone involved, then it will matter less what they are doing.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

There's also many ways to communicate other than just texting. Many games have messaging functionality, Skype, etc. She could have another phone that you don't know about, another Facebook account, etc. I'm not saying she is cheating, but you can't go just from what you see on the surface either.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> Thanks for the reply Shaggy. Firstly, I can't say for certain that the child is mine. We didn't have sex as much as we did to conceive our first two, but that doesn't really mean too much. She doesn't drink now, but before the pregnancy it was all the time and it was always with her best friend, A guy her best friend was secretly seeing and the guy in question. Come to think of it, another time she went to a house party with these people and more. She text me at midnight-ish to say she was just leaving, but didn't get home for two hours later. When I questioned her about this she said her and her female best friend had stopped to chat in a playground and lost track of time. This was july/august 2011 and when my suspicions really started. I have access to her phone records but there is little texting between her and the OM. They do however work together a lot and have the same social circle, so it would be easy to communicate face to face. As for him having a wife/Gf, I know he doesn't as I ised to work with him too. I know where he lives and am even friends with him on facebook.



So they four of them were basically double dating.

I'm not trying to dump on you - but why why why did you let her do this? 

To fix this you need to expose the affair to friends/family and she will have to leave that job - they will simply go underground and continue the affair.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

1Absolutely expose the affair at once.
2.Get a paternity test done. There is a good chance the baby is not yours.
3.Get tested for STD's
4.See an attorney for your options. I am sorry but she is playing you for a complete fool. If the roles were reversed would she be so accepting of this type of behavior? If you do not respect yourself then who will? Good luck.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

think about the story, let me suggest the following events:

1. she was in an affair with this guy she went out on the double drinking dates with.
2. she missed her period
3. he freak and dumped her
4. she ran back to you, wanting to "have a baby"
5. you took her back
6. he settled down, and is ok with her having his kid and YOU raising it
7. the affair is back on


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> think about the story, let me suggest the following events:
> 
> 1. she was in an affair with this guy she went out on the double drinking dates with.
> 2. she missed her period
> ...


Wow Shaggy, that is exactly the conclusion I came to reading this thread. I would bet money the baby she is carrying is not her husband's.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> think about the story, let me suggest the following events:
> 
> 1. she was in an affair with this guy she went out on the double drinking dates with.
> 2. she missed her period
> ...


I am sorry to say that I thought the same exact thing. I have very little doubt about this being true.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Sadly, I agree with the last 3 forum members conclusions.

You need to man-up and implement non-negotiable boundaries (actions to protect yourself, not manipulate her).

Start implementing *The 180 Degrees Rules* for your emotional well being.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

I hate to say this but if I was the OP I would DNA test his other children as well. How many times do men end up raising other men's children and never realize it until something like this happens.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> I hate to say this but if I was the OP I would DNA test his other children as well. How many times do men end up raising other men's children and never realize it until something like this happens.


Far too often I'm afraid and the innocent children are often the most devastated by it.


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Ok, sorry not replied sooner but she woke up (she works nights) and we've not spoke yet. I'll try to answer some of the questions raised as best I can. As for how I could let her take so many liberties, I suppose it's just naivety and being too trusting on my part. It's hard to believe your partner could do such things. Also someone asked if I often go out. I used to, until she complained after the birth of our first child that I was going out too much. I through this back in her face when she was ding the same and she told me it's different now as she has a social life whereas she didn't before! I boils down to me being far too beta in this marriage, I realise that now. I'm sick of her making out all our problems are my fault. I'm doing my best to manage my problems, via medication and therapy, but it's never enough. Finding work is never easy in a recession, especially when you were dismissed from your last job. Not my fault I was dismissed due to illness, but she still blames me. 
As for the other two kids being mine, I know they are. There is no doubt on that one. Also, she definitely wasn't pregnant before we tried for this latest one, as she did regular pregnancy tests whilst we were trying to conceive. 
I need to confront her about all of this, for my own sanity more than anything! Any tips on how to bring this up? I don't want her to go defensive and clam up. I want her to be honest and if there is something physical going on i want her to tell me as that will be the end. My last 2 relationships ended in me being cheated on (really should have learned to be less trusting by now. I know I'm an idiot) and she has said she would never do that and would leave me first. But now she is taking about leaving and displaying all these signs, I'm wondering if she is trying in a weird kind of way to not hurt me by keeping this all secret. I don't know. Confused and really have no one to talk to!


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Start reading at this link. Good luck. Is the other man married or have a girl friend? Why are you still baby sitting while she is being unfaithful to you. She is going out on dates with another man from what YOU are saying.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Hey Chapparal, Thanks for the info. I tried having a conversation with her Last night, but to no avail. She just won't talk to me and keeps saying she isn't comfortable talking face to face as she finds it difficult. I need to have this out with her before I explode but I keep finding myself doubting whether I am right to. I have also considered phoning her best friend (we are on speaking terms) and straight out asking her if she knows anything about my wifes behaviour. I'm sure this probably isn't a good idea though.....


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> Hey Chapparal, Thanks for the info. I tried having a conversation with her Last night, but to no avail. She just won't talk to me and keeps saying she isn't comfortable talking face to face as she finds it difficult. I need to have this out with her before I explode but I keep finding myself doubting whether I am right to. I have also considered phoning her best friend (we are on speaking terms) and straight out asking her if she knows anything about my wifes behaviour. I'm sure this probably isn't a good idea though.....


No! If this is the same Toxic Friend (TF) that has been enabling and facilitating this affair, then you will only tip her off that you're really on to her. Besides, the TF isn't going to give you any info anyway, as she will protect your WW to the hilt.


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Thats what I thought. My mind is sorta all over the place at the moment. She has me really thinking it IS all me and it's my failings as a husband, father and provider that have put our marriage in this state. But at the same time, I can't get rid of the gut feeling. There is something else that I have not mentioned as it makes me sound crazy, but I would appreciate advice and thoughts:

On the 30th of december, she went over her friends house to help with college work (her friend is mature student). Later in the evening, I text her to see how she was and she replied fine, and that the suspected OM had turned up out of the blue after work. I was annoyed with this. A few hours later, she came home, didn't say hello and went straight to the bathroom. She was in there for about 15 minutes, didn't flush, and then came and sat on the sofa. I noticed that her hair was messy at the back (may have been windy out) and also she had marks up the sleeve of her coat that were not there when she left. I asked about her night, and asked if the other man was arranged to be there, as she hadn't mentioned him before. She said no, he just turned up. The next day however she mentioned she had spoke to him about going over her friends and that they were having dinner and he said he may well go too. Now, going back to the night in question, Before she went to bed I asked how she got home and she said he walked her home, going about a mile out of his way to do so. I mentioned this was odd and she said that he liked walking. After she went to bed I went in the kitchen and noticed her underwear was in the basket. I didn't search for them, but there were fresh, visible, sticky white stains on the gusset. She is pregnant, and women do discharge, but coupled with going straight to the toilet when she got home, not flushing and leaving a wad of paper in the bowl, my suspicions went into absolute overdrive. Am I crazy? I can't afford a semen detection kit and don't want to wait any longer.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Stop asking the WW and don't talk to toxic friend.

You are going to have to do thus the hardway.

You need to find what she is saying to these people and where she is going and meeting them. Since they meet at work this is hard in your case,but a PI might help as might a gps on her car or phone?

You also need to learn how to get a DNA test done before the kid is born without her kneeing about it. Time to talk to your wife's dictir perhaps?

Does she text a lot? Or use the computer?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Its definitely a PA by the looks of it. Save those panties and paper. You can get a Checkmate Semen Detection kit for $49.

CheckMate Infidelity Test Kit for Semen-Sperm Stain Detection.

But at this point you don't have the proof and she will only gaslight you. Don't make my mistake by confronting too early. She will then be able to take it further underground. You must install a keylogger at the very minimum. 

Its a *HUGE red flag* when they go to the bathroom immediately after getting home after being with the OP.


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Ok, she does text a lot, but I have access (without her knowledge) to her itemised online account. She doesn't text him that often. Plus, due to previous suspicions, she knows I checked her phone in the past and I think that is why they don't text each other a lot. I also have access to her facebook, which she knows about so there is nothing going on there. As for GPS in car, she doesn't drive. Putting one on her phone would be hard as I rarely get my hands on it and I really can't afford a PI. She rarely uses the computer. I think my previous suspicions have tipped her off and if (I'm still saying if) she is cheating, it's being handled in a very secretive way. We still haven't spoken since she told me she doesn't know if she wants to be together any more and things are only getting more strained which is why i need to get this off my chest to her ASAP. But she won't talk to me. Am I wrong to think it's suspicious she doesn't want to talk face to face but will behind a phone?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Find the 49 dollars and test those undies. 

If you don't act now you may end up paying to raise another mans kid for 18 years
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> Ok, she does text a lot, but I have access (without her knowledge) to her itemised online account. She doesn't text him that often. Plus, due to previous suspicions, she knows I checked her phone in the past and I think that is why they don't text each other a lot. I also have access to her facebook, which she knows about so there is nothing going on there. As for GPS in car, she doesn't drive. Putting one on her phone would be hard as I rarely get my hands on it and I really can't afford a PI. She rarely uses the computer. I think my previous suspicions have tipped her off and if (I'm still saying if) she is cheating, it's being handled in a very secretive way. We still haven't spoken since she told me she doesn't know if she wants to be together any more and things are only getting more strained which is why i need to get this off my chest to her ASAP. But she won't talk to me. Am I wrong to think it's suspicious she doesn't want to talk face to face but will behind a phone?


Handled in a secret way? Sounds more like she ends up with her boyfriend more than she's around you. She can't even look you in the eye and discuss it. 

She will be gone once she has the baby is my guess.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

This definitely sounds like an affair. The guy isn't showing up everywhere she is for nothing.

However, no one has really addressed you yet. I think you do need to get to the bottom of this affair and stop being naive, but I think you need to improve yourself too. What is making you depressed? Also, what about a job? Are you looking everyday, or just content that the recession makes it difficult to find a job? Where I live (TX), people find jobs everyday. I am not saying she should be able to sit home and not work (I advocate both parties working), but you aren't going to look that attractive to her sitting home and not working and being depressed. Does she seem to be still attracted to you?

I, too, wonder about this baby and if you are the father. I would definitely suggest a paternity test when the baby is born and finding out what's going on in the meantime. I bet you find she is having an affair with this guy. It's pretty blatant. But also, work on your circumstances. No woman wants a husband who has been out of work for an extended period of time and is not making an effort. And a spouse's depression is really hard to deal with. I'm not saying she is right in having an affair, but I'm wondering if her attraction for you decreased due to your lack of working and depression and that is where this guy was able to swoop in.


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

Scrape up the money for the checkmate kit if the undies are still around. Definately plan on having the baby DNA tested when he/she is born.

It seems to me that you are full of reasons not to check up on her, but that is what you need to be doing. Quit asking her if she is cheating and don't ask her toxic friend either.


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Hi Tennisstar. All valid points, and I thank you for the input. I already feel as low as I can about being unable to provide for my family and the fact my wife has to work all the time. Thing is, she never engages with me about how shes feeling and has never told me up until 2 days ago, after all this behaviour, that I am causing her stress and misery. If this is the case, and there is no affair, then telling me sooner would have really helped. Also, don't think I have exhausted her support. There was no support. She even complained about my therapy interfering with her sleep after working night-shifts!
Now, I know this will make some disappointed, but I had the talk with her tonight. I'm sorry, but I couldn't wait any longer, living in such a cold, distant environment. I outlined everything, everything that I have mentioned in this thread. Her reaction? Dismissed it all. Told me I was making more of events than there was, I was jealous and accused me of diverting blame. She then cried for an hour and hasn't spoke to me since. Think I might have messed up here.


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> I outlined everything, everything that I have mentioned in this thread. Her reaction? Dismissed it all. Told me I was making more of events than there was, I was jealous and accused me of diverting blame. She then cried for an hour and hasn't spoke to me since. Think I might have messed up here.


Of course that would be her responce. If she is in an affair she will be more cautious and sneaky now.


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## NaturalHeart (Nov 13, 2011)

I'm so sorry. You will get great advice and guidance here.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> Hi Tennisstar. All valid points, and I thank you for the input. I already feel as low as I can about being unable to provide for my family and the fact my wife has to work all the time. Thing is, she never engages with me about how shes feeling and has never told me up until 2 days ago, after all this behaviour, that I am causing her stress and misery. If this is the case, and there is no affair, then telling me sooner would have really helped. Also, don't think I have exhausted her support. There was no support. She even complained about my therapy interfering with her sleep after working night-shifts!
> Now, I know this will make some disappointed, but I had the talk with her tonight. I'm sorry, but I couldn't wait any longer, living in such a cold, distant environment. I outlined everything, everything that I have mentioned in this thread. Her reaction? Dismissed it all. Told me I was making more of events than there was, I was jealous and accused me of diverting blame. She then cried for an hour and hasn't spoke to me since. Think I might have messed up here.


Well, did you accomplish anything? Is she going to start acting like a married woman? Are you going to act like a husband instead of the babysitter?

All she did was blamshifting and put it all on you. What did she say when you told her what she was doing was inapropriate. I can't believe she ddn't call you controlling. Everything you describe, even the crying, is reght out of the wayward wife script. Although they usually say they are sorry.

One other point, affair or not, the guy thats always turning up is after your wife.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Read here:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Jesus Christ dude!!

Your wife is ****ing around on you and she doesn`t even hold enough respect for you to treat you as decently as she would a nanny.

A nanny is what you are, sitting at home watching the kids while some dudes repeatedly banging your wife and you deal with her bull**** lies when she gets home.

Grow some balls, get ALL the kids tested after you file for divorce and kick your wife out.

Take some DNA samples before you kick her out in case she takes them.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

As to income---since you were fired for meds, I would think you are entitled to unemployement---if so, you are contributing

This guy shows up everywhere your wife does---that ain't happenstance, that is preplaning, tween your W., and her lover, or her toxic friend is setting this up

Seems to me, there are no consequences anywhere, so far, as to your W's behavior---Married woman stay home with their family---THEY DO NOT GO OUT AND PARTY, HELP OTHERS, DRINK, MEET UP, GET WALKED HOME----They COME HOME, AND STAY HOME, with their family.

At some point in time wasn't this addressed---and if so, when your wife told you basically to go F yourself---which she seems to be doing about everything---what did YOU DO????? 

No consequences---no change

As to her lover----send him a letter---tell him the following---he is INTENTIONALLY contributing to the breaking up and disintigration of your family, he is doing it on purpose, he is contributing to the possible wrecking of your children's lives---and if HE DOES NOT STOP SEEING YOUR WIFE IMMEDIATELY---you will file a civil suit agst him for INTENTIONAL INFLICTION OF EMOTIONAL DISTRESS.------Usually threatening one's wallet, gets results.


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks all for the advice so far. Head is really messed up at the mo! Ok, so a bit more info. When I spoke to her last night about all this, She was, as i said, dismissive of my claims, saying it was in my head and I was making more of it. She EMPHASISED that he is a friend, there is nothing there, she feels no attraction to him at all etc. She even denied some true facts about her behaviour. During our talk though she did tell me she is constantly stressed, and she goes out/helps her friends to escape from her own problems. I told her this is not healthy and what is a husband for if not to help her with her issues? She replied she didn't want to add to my problems! I know this sounds silly in light of everything going on here, but do you think there IS a chance that i am making more of this than there is? Any chance there is no affair, even on an emotional level? She is acting VERY much like someone who is depressed and I have mentioned that in the past though she never goes to see a Dr. about it. I don't know. Feel incredibly helpless and confused!
As for claiming unemployment, I did that, but as she works I am only entitled to 6 months worth under UK law. I want to work but there is so little out there where I am. 
As for confronting the other man, I don't feel there is enough evidence yet and it may be more harmful at this stage.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> Hi Tennisstar. All valid points, and I thank you for the input. I already feel as low as I can about being unable to provide for my family and the fact my wife has to work all the time. Thing is, she never engages with me about how shes feeling and has never told me up until 2 days ago, after all this behaviour, that I am causing her stress and misery. If this is the case, and there is no affair, then telling me sooner would have really helped. Also, don't think I have exhausted her support. There was no support. She even complained about my therapy interfering with her sleep after working night-shifts!
> Now, I know this will make some disappointed, but I had the talk with her tonight. I'm sorry, but I couldn't wait any longer, living in such a cold, distant environment. I outlined everything, everything that I have mentioned in this thread. Her reaction? Dismissed it all. Told me I was making more of events than there was, I was jealous and accused me of diverting blame. She then cried for an hour and hasn't spoke to me since. Think I might have messed up here.


Didn't I tell you NOT to confront yet? Here comes the 2x4.










Now you confronted and she was able to gaslight you. Didn't you know that whenever you hear "He's just a friend", that's practically confirmation that she's having an affair. Its the biggest red flag of them all. Of course she's gonna emphasize he's just a friend.  They will swear on their childrens live, they will swear on their parents lives, they will even swear on the bible. Heck, I got the "God is my wintess!" speech. 

Now all she'll do is take it further underground, and your window of opportunity is closing here soon because she will soon separate from you and go straight to OM so she can bang him without further interruption from you and no more sneaking around. Expose this affair at her work too.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

Yea, its ALWAYS possible to be making more out of it that is there, however, she is showing ALL the red flags for cheating. There are some links on this sight you need to read about "the cheaters script", and some recommendations on what you can do to catch it.

Look - its black and white (in a world full of grey) - this OM (other man) isn't a friend to your marriage, there is a reason why we suspect infidelity (its a primal instinct). What cheater WONT lie about their affairs (its an addiction they can't lose), and to top it off, if it wasn't true and NOT a big deal, why did she lose it afterwards (its because the guilt is overwhelming her). Get those panties evaluated, especially if the two of you aren't having sex.

You W needs to know that you won't live in a one-sided open marriage, and you will pack her bags and take her to the OM's house if she doesn't do the following:

1 - Agree to write a NC (no contact) letter (in your presence and sent by you)
2 - Full transparency
3 - She does heavy lifting (the right things) to recover the marriage

You became anxious and depressed. Interesting, did you ever wonder if it was related to the marriage (you started feeling that your W was no longer in it, or she was already cheating?). The reason why I say this is she is taking her problems to others, when the only people they belong to is between you and her. This is the very definition of marriage.

Anywhere else is emotional infidelity (at the least) and quite possibly physical infidelity (at the most likely). What man should be walking your wife home like that. Where I come from, thats a DATE!

I would be for some ass kicking!


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

I know it probably shouldn't have done, but the Godzilla facepalm gave me the biggest laugh I've had in a while. I know it was stupid to confront her, but she was already talking about leaving and I dunno, I just felt I had to get it out. sort of like I wanted her to know that I knew something was fishy in our relationship in the stupid belief she would come clean about it. She's Text me today from work to tell me she will be writing everything down that she needs to tell me and giving it to me later. I would prefer a conversation, but it just won't happen. Not really looking forward to the contents of the letter, but at the same time, for better or worse, I just want all this mess over with so we can move on, either together or apart.


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Hi Dadof3. Very good points, thank you. I was depressed before these problems arose, but a lack of support from the woman I loved did amplify them to some great extent. However, besides anxiety, I have been much improved for months, which is why I don't fully buy her 'you've not made an effort to get better' speech. I told her plainly last night that she is the most important person in my life, and as her husband I should be in hers. No other person, especially a man, should be more important to her than me because thats how I feel about her. She made no comment on this and there was no offer to scale back friendships etc. I will have to wait to see what this letter says tonight.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Her letter will say a lot of crap to justify her stepping out.

btw - the sad thing is in the affair fog, she actually believes the crap she will be writting.

My predictions:

1. I'm stressed and I need an outlet that isn't you
2. My friends offer me ideas and independent advice on how to make me and US better
3. I just need some extra time to figure myself out
4. If you push me or demand things of me -you'll be pushing me away (Translation: If you want me to stop my affair, you'll be pushing me into the arms of another man)
5. You are creating all these problems - it's all you - why won't you trust me and give me the freedom I need

6. You're controlling.

7. I've come to find I love you, but I'm not in love with you.


--

my point is the this big letter is no doubt going to be worthless. I will be her reasons for her justifying the affair (which she'll still deny) - along with a bunch of gaslighting.


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Can I ask a stupid question? Actually, two stupid questions? Firstly, does anyone think there is nothing going on and it's all a very coincidental misunderstanding? I'm in denial, I know.
Secondly, she has said that she may stay over her Toxic friends house tonight after dropping the letter off. Only may, not will. If she does, I know where her friend lives. Would it be a good idea to go snoop if she says she is staying there?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Her staying at the friends is her walking away from the marriage.

Come on - you're worried that she's cheating and her response is to tell you she's not, but that she suddenly needs to be spending the night away from home?

What a great way to built trust.

Oh, he11 yeah, if she goes you really should snoop.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> Can I ask a stupid question? Actually, two stupid questions? Firstly, does anyone think there is nothing going on and it's all a very coincidental misunderstanding? I'm in denial, I know.
> Secondly, she has said that she may stay over her Toxic friends house tonight after dropping the letter off. Only may, not will. If she does, I know where her friend lives. Would it be a good idea to go snoop if she says she is staying there?


Well you could go over there and peek in a window so you can see which sex positions she likes to do the OM in, and you can see the sex stuff she will do for him that she wont do for you.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> Her staying at the friends is her walking away from the marriage.
> 
> Come on - you're worried that she's cheating and her response is to tell you she's not, but that she suddenly needs to be spending the night away from home?
> 
> ...


Yeah - the signs are not good on this one. The denial is strong in this young padowan. 

I think the notification of not staying in the marital home after delivery of the letter is a REALLY BAD sign. 

I think Shaggy's prediction will be somewhat close. You may even get some truth (yeah like they snuggled and kissed but have done nothing else - which - is false (its how cheaters "trickle truth"). The staying somewhere else is an indication of two things:

1 - She will admit some or all of what you have asked about and/or mix it with what shaggy said - justification / denial, etc.

2 - She wants a rendevous with OM as she fears you will force her to end it either way. 

You need to let her know that the TF (toxic friend) is just as bad for the marriage as the OM (other man) and her staying there (like you'll be able to confirm it without getting caught peeping) will irreversably harm the marriage.


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Guess I'm gonna have to wait and see what this letter says. As for getting caught whilst spying on her friends house, that really isn't an issue. Due to it's location and window placements, it would be really easy. Just worried it would be a bit too stalker-ish! The only reason I would want to snoop is to see if she is actually there, and if she is whether he is too.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I personally wouldn`t allow the sleepover but if you`re going to let her do it I`d definitely stake the place out and use it as an opportunity to gain some truth.


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

I don't think it will be a question of letting her. To avoid confrontation, I imagine she will probably stick the letter through the doorslot and be off. I shall wait and see.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> I don't think it will be a question of letting her. To avoid confrontation, I imagine she will probably stick the letter through the doorslot and be off. I shall wait and see.


It`s always a matter of letting her.

You`re letting her disrespect you.

You`re letting her cheat on you.

You`re letting her abuse you.

You`re letting her use you.

You`re letting her cuckold you.

You can't make her do or not do anything but you can stop "letting" her treat you like ****.

Think about it.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

In that case, I wouldn't be in the house, but in stalker mode watching who, what, when, where, and how.

And, as a shot off of the port bow, you need to let her know electronically that any sleepovers will force your hand towards divorce no matter what (and be prepared to follow-thru). If she views you as a pushover, she'll ignore you. You need to get her attention with a proverbial two-by-four to the head (Divorce). Nice thing about this is, that it can be withdrawn before finalization, if things start to change for the positive.


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

To be honest dadof3, if this letter is anything other than a frank, reasonable explanation of her actions, with acknowledgement that her behaviour has been unacceptable and suspicious, I think the Divorce threat is the only way forward. I believe, however, it will be as was previously said and that the letter will continue with the theme of blaming me and taking no responsibility on her part. I won't accept that.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

So, Jeffrey - what happens if you get the letter with frank, reasonable explanation of her actions and she still has a sleepover?

What is the possibility that the frank reasonable explanations are really gas-lighting - remember - frank, reasonable explanations are subjective to the beholder.

In her cheating mind, its frank and reasonable, while in your mind it isn't. 

Just thought I'd change the paradigm for you so you realize how this is going to happen. 

What then would be the real criteria for a Divorce?

Its all about boundaries, what is acceptable, and what isn't. What are yours? and what will you do about it, when she doesn't comply?

This, in my opinion, is what you really need to be looking at. everything else is a foggy cop-out.


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## NaturalHeart (Nov 13, 2011)

You are getting some strong responses on if she is cheating or not. People respond here and are usually very sympathetic to the OP but when you get these type of responses, it is like a WAKE UP call to your denial. 

Some people even come in and ask more questions before they respond and say "yeah red flag" but the responses are immediately firm and confident that from the info you've given- you have some serious red flags here. 

I understand denial and hoping this is not what it is but when spouse is going out, doing whatever they want with other men and women and treating you like you did something wrong for questioning her behavior instead of reassuring you.......


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Well thank you everyone so far for the honesty and advice. She has text me again to tell me that she will be coming home tonight and also added that i really upset her last night. I replied that it needed to be said and out in the open as her behaviour was unacceptable. She replied, and I quote, " Ok, fair point. Wait until you've read my letter and I promise I will talk to you face to face about it after". 
I have to go now as I need to get dinner ready, but I will be back later tonight with an update, and a summary of the letter. I know the letter is supposed to be personal, but thats the beauty of anonymous online forums I suppose. and here may be some massive red flags that I do not see in the letter.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

Think about the boundaries of your marriage and be prepared to discuss these with the W. That maybe a constructive way forward.


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> Can I ask a stupid question? Actually, two stupid questions? Firstly, does anyone think there is nothing going on and it's all a very coincidental misunderstanding? I'm in denial, I know.
> Secondly, she has said that she may stay over her Toxic friends house tonight after dropping the letter off. Only may, not will. If she does, I know where her friend lives. Would it be a good idea to go snoop if she says she is staying there?


1: No, the chance nothing is going on is remotely small

2: Heck ya, snoop


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

*On the 30th of december, she went over her friends house to help with college work (her friend is mature student). Later in the evening, I text her to see how she was and she replied fine, and that the suspected OM had turned up out of the blue after work. I was annoyed with this. A few hours later, she came home, didn't say hello and went straight to the bathroom. She was in there for about 15 minutes, didn't flush, and then came and sat on the sofa. I noticed that her hair was messy at the back (may have been windy out) and also she had marks up the sleeve of her coat that were not there when she left. I asked about her night, and asked if the other man was arranged to be there, as she hadn't mentioned him before. She said no, he just turned up. The next day however she mentioned she had spoke to him about going over her friends and that they were having dinner and he said he may well go too. Now, going back to the night in question, Before she went to bed I asked how she got home and she said he walked her home, going about a mile out of his way to do so. I mentioned this was odd and she said that he liked walking. After she went to bed I went in the kitchen and noticed her underwear was in the basket. I didn't search for them, but there were fresh, visible, sticky white stains on the gusset. She is pregnant, and women do discharge, but coupled with going straight to the toilet when she got home, not flushing and leaving a wad of paper in the bowl, my suspicions went into absolute overdrive. Am I crazy? I can't afford a semen detection kit and don't want to wait any longer.*

Hope you put the panties in a zip lock bag and saved them. That is proof positive. There are some quick semen tests that are available fairly cheap.


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## NaturalHeart (Nov 13, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> Thats what I thought. My mind is sorta all over the place at the moment. She has me really thinking it IS all me and it's my failings as a husband, father and provider that have put our marriage in this state. But at the same time, I can't get rid of the gut feeling. There is something else that I have not mentioned as it makes me sound crazy, but I would appreciate advice and thoughts:
> 
> On the 30th of december, she went over her friends house to help with college work (her friend is mature student). Later in the evening, I text her to see how she was and she replied fine, and that the suspected OM had turned up out of the blue after work. I was annoyed with this. A few hours later, she came home, didn't say hello and went straight to the bathroom. She was in there for about 15 minutes, didn't flush, and then came and sat on the sofa. I noticed that her hair was messy at the back (may have been windy out) and also she had marks up the sleeve of her coat that were not there when she left. I asked about her night, and asked if the other man was arranged to be there, as she hadn't mentioned him before. She said no, he just turned up. The next day however she mentioned she had spoke to him about going over her friends and that they were having dinner and he said he may well go too. Now, going back to the night in question, Before she went to bed I asked how she got home and she said he walked her home, going about a mile out of his way to do so. I mentioned this was odd and she said that he liked walking. *After she went to bed I went in the kitchen and noticed her underwear was in the basket. I didn't search for them, but there were fresh, visible, sticky white stains on the gusset. She is pregnant, and women do discharge, but coupled with going straight to the toilet when she got home, not flushing and leaving a wad of paper in the bowl, my suspicions went into absolute overdrive. Am I crazy? I can't afford a semen detection kit and don't want to wait any longer.*





I hate to go here but sniffing and seeing what you saw on panties of a spouse that has as many red flags flying up, you should have at least smelled condom/rubber smell there as well. I hope she is not pregnant and unprotected which goes back to you being tested as well as testing the paternity of the child.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

shaylady said:


> [/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
> 
> 
> I hate to go here but sniffing and seeing what you saw on panties of a spouse that has as many red flags flying up, you should have at least smelled condom/rubber smell there as well. I hope she is not pregnant and unprotected which goes back to you being tested as well as testing the paternity of the child.


If I recall correctly, he mentioned his W was pregnant, and pregnant women have all sorts of discharge, etc. 

Which, would probably, as your concern - no "condom smell" lead to getting checked for STDs as people wouldn't use them due to the chance of pregnancy being zero. 

Semen tested. Get one of the tests that a prior poster mentioned above!


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## NaturalHeart (Nov 13, 2011)

Dadof3 said:


> If I recall correctly, he mentioned his W was pregnant, and pregnant women have all sorts of discharge, etc.
> 
> Which, would probably, as your concern - no "condom smell" lead to getting checked for STDs as people wouldn't use them due to the chance of pregnancy being zero.
> 
> Semen tested. Get one of the tests that a prior poster mentioned above!


I understand what you're saying but to be pregnant and not protect yourself because you can't get pregnant- - but risk harming the child because you can't get pregnant- - OMG, thas some selfish gutter utter upmost betrayal. Hell if she don't care about self or hubby at least care enough about the child- but now that I think of it, I think he said she mentioned not wanting the baby or something so ok, she cares for no one maybe


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Ok, just quickly as she isn't home from work yet and I haven't read her letter. Firstly, about the underpants, I have no idea where they went. I know this will sound silly but I didn't put them somewhere safe at the time and they may have been washed. Do those kits still work on washed clothes? Secondly, as shaylady said, she has shown little care for anyone but herself in the last few months so I wouldn't be surprised if (and I am still saying if. Denial is horrible) she has done something, it probably has been unprotected.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

waiting for his W's letter will be such a nail biter. The chances of him getting 100% disclosure is next to the chance that a miniature black hole produced by the Geneva super collider will swallow our earth. but then again, we've been wrong before.

I'm more concerned that he'll believe her when it can't be verified.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

As for her being unconcerned over the baby - his first post mentions that she told him it was a mistake to get pregnant by him and she did not want the baby. I may be reaching here but she may have done some quick math and figured out it is not his.

Dad - I think the letter is going to be a bit of classic misdirection, blaming her behavior on him and his illness.

Have to wit and see.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> Ok, just quickly as she isn't home from work yet and I haven't read her letter. Firstly, about the underpants, I have no idea where they went. I know this will sound silly but I didn't put them somewhere safe at the time and they may have been washed. Do those kits still work on washed clothes? Secondly, as shaylady said, she has shown little care for anyone but herself in the last few months so I wouldn't be surprised if (and I am still saying if. Denial is horrible) she has done something, it probably has been unprotected.


Not sure if the test kits would work on washed clothes. If bleach is involved or some strong detergent - probably not. File this info away for a possible next time.


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## NaturalHeart (Nov 13, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> Ok, just quickly as she isn't home from work yet and I haven't read her letter. Firstly, about the underpants, I have no idea where they went. I know this will sound silly but I didn't put them somewhere safe at the time and they may have been washed. Do those kits still work on washed clothes? Secondly, as shaylady said, she has shown little care for anyone but herself in the last few months so I wouldn't be surprised if (and I am still saying if. Denial is horrible) she has done something, it probably has been unprotected.


 
*yreffej1980*
You have to look out for you now because the reality that people are lovers of themselves is running rampant as well as narcissist nowadays. People are beyond selfish and I don't mean a little selfish. *It is selfishness at an all time HIGH.* When a spouse does DIRT but gets upset because they are being called out on it, needing to leave to text about it but not discuss it face to face or over the phone, looking at you like you've done something wrong but you're the one at home with the kids while they are out playing and living the single life all over again...... tripping one minute but wanting a child the next, then going back to tripping again - .........Just know people will lie to their grave. Some "toxic friends" will encourage people to not tell the truth or will tell them to take it to their grave. 
Just be careful. I do believe some people are remorseful but I think some people are remorseful up until they win you back and then it is on again on cheating, texting, sexing, socializing and everythign else


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

I predict 30% chance of partial confession mixed with some snow flurries of misdirection, aimed at his shortcomings as a husband and father, and her need to discover herself as they married too young and he's way too controlling.


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Ok, she just text. She will be home in about ten minutes. I will eat, read the letter and then be back on probably about midnight GMT. Could be later, or even possibly tomorrow, depending on how things go.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

good luck Jeffrey. Be strong, be firm, and don't let her walk over you.


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## NaturalHeart (Nov 13, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> ok, she just text. She will be home in about ten minutes. I will eat, read the letter and then be back on probably about midnight gmt. Could be later, or even possibly tomorrow, depending on how things go.


 
god bless


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

Partial clouds, chance of precipation which may cause roads to become icy depending on elevation. Drive at your own risk. The sun may come out briefly followed by intense bands of fog and then lake effect snow which will make all things look pretty, like a Norman Rockwell postcard, but difficult to navigate through.

Travelers advisories have been issued!


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

Yardman said:


> Partial clouds, chance of precipation which may cause roads to become icy depending on elevation. Drive at your own risk. The sun may come out briefly followed by intense bands of fog and then lake effect snow which will make all things look pretty, like a Norman Rockwell postcard, but difficult to navigate through.
> 
> Travelers advisories have been issued!


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup::lol:


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Ok people, the moment of truth. She came home, we ate and then I took the letter in the bedroom to read alone. felt more comfortable that way. So the letter started in the worst way. "There is no one else. I'm not interested in anyone else" and "these suspicions you've had are in your head, there is nothing going on". as you can imagine, that's not exactly what I was wanting to read, an over-emphasis on denying an EA or PA. However, the letter went on to concede she has not been a good wife, she has taken me for granted, but that I also had to shoulder some of the blame, which I do. She was unable to explain losing an interest in sex and merely stated it wasn't high on her agenda, plus she doesn't feel comfortable as she has put weight on this last year. 
After reading the letter, I went in to talk to her. I told her I wasn;t going to argue with the letter as arguing gets you nowhere. I said we have a very clear choice. We have complete honesty and transparency from now on, She acknowledges that whilst I don't own her, I do expect to be the most important man in her life, as she is the most important woman in mine, she is stop socialising with other men beyond work and certainly not going round their house with or without other friends, We promise to spend more time together as a couple and we try to rekindle the physical side to our relationship. Either we make the above changes, or we go to a solicitor and file for divorce, as we will only find ourselves in this position again, and it's not good for either of us or the children.
She agreed to all of this on the proviso that I go back to the Dr about my problems, which I will.
I don't have any hard evidence something happened between her and the OM, only gut instinct and that's not enough to go on. She now knows what is expected and what will not be tolerated, and I've made her aware of the consequences of violating this agreement. I will still spy for a while, and will try to get tracking software on her phone for a while to make sure. But it does feel like a corner has been turned and she is ready and wanting to reconcile. I'm sure a few may think I've handled this wrong, but only time will tell.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I hope you have a VAR in the car.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> Ok people, the moment of truth. She came home, we ate and then I took the letter in the bedroom to read alone. felt more comfortable that way. So the letter started in the worst way. "There is no one else. I'm not interested in anyone else" and "these suspicions you've had are in your head, there is nothing going on". as you can imagine, that's not exactly what I was wanting to read, an over-emphasis on denying an EA or PA. However, the letter went on to concede she has not been a good wife, she has taken me for granted, but that I also had to shoulder some of the blame, which I do. She was unable to explain losing an interest in sex and merely stated it wasn't high on her agenda, plus she doesn't feel comfortable as she has put weight on this last year.
> After reading the letter, I went in to talk to her. I told her I wasn;t going to argue with the letter as arguing gets you nowhere. I said we have a very clear choice. We have complete honesty and transparency from now on, She acknowledges that whilst I don't own her, I do expect to be the most important man in her life, as she is the most important woman in mine, she is stop socialising with other men beyond work and certainly not going round their house with or without other friends, We promise to spend more time together as a couple and we try to rekindle the physical side to our relationship. Either we make the above changes, or we go to a solicitor and file for divorce, as we will only find ourselves in this position again, and it's not good for either of us or the children.
> She agreed to all of this on the proviso that I go back to the Dr about my problems, which I will.
> I don't have any hard evidence something happened between her and the OM, only gut instinct and that's not enough to go on. She now knows what is expected and what will not be tolerated, and I've made her aware of the consequences of violating this agreement. I will still spy for a while, and will try to get tracking software on her phone for a while to make sure. But it does feel like a corner has been turned and she is ready and wanting to reconcile. I'm sure a few may think I've handled this wrong, but only time will tell.


I think you handled it as well as could be expected. You both talked about what has happened and you established boundaries and developed a plan to make the marriage better.

I think you have the right plan in mind. "Trust" - but verify. Software for the phone to monitor texts and a VAR in her car is a must. 

Good luck!


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

Methinks the OM dumped or put her on the backburner

She is reinforcing and building up her plan B, you.

They have gone underground because you tipped your cards. Keep an eye open.

Best Wishes to you


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Actions speak louder than words. Hopefully, she realizes what she was doing now. The problem is that cheaters lie like a dog. As a result, you still have to pay attention.

Double up your efforts to get a job, any job.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> But it does feel like a corner has been turned and she is ready and wanting to reconcile. I'm sure a few may think I've handled this wrong, but only time will tell.


I hope you're right but all too often when you turn a corner you slam right into a brick wall. Stay vigilant!


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> "There is no one else. I'm not interested in anyone else" and "these suspicions you've had are in your head, there is nothing going on".


This is a *PRIME EXAMPLE* of *GASLIGHTING*, nothing less. The fact that she's gaslighting you is a huge red flag.

Gaslighting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Instead of acknowledging her actions with OM have been inappropriate and crossed the line which caused you to suspect her, she gaslights you. 



yreffej1980 said:


> We have complete honesty and transparency from now on, *She acknowledges that whilst I don't own h*er, I do expect to be the most important man in her life, as she is the most important woman in mine, she is stop socialising with other men beyond work and certainly not going round their house with or without other friends, We promise to spend more time together as a couple and we try to rekindle the physical side to our relationship.


She says you don't own her but promises to be transparent? How? Has she WILLINGLY handed over to you any and all passwords to all accounts? Or is this just a promise? She promised to stop socializing with other men, yet wanted to go over to her TF house to associate with this OM? 



yreffej1980 said:


> She now knows what is expected and what will not be tolerated, and I've made her aware of the consequences of violating this agreement.


Have you had her write a NC letter to this OM? That violation of the NC letter will bring consequences?



yreffej1980 said:


> I will still spy for a while, and will try to get tracking software on her phone for a while to make sure. But it does feel like a corner has been turned and she is ready and wanting to reconcile. I'm sure a few may think I've handled this wrong, but only time will tell.


Damn right you should verify and investigate her! Yes, I do think you handled this wrong. But your reaction is not uncommon in those BSs who are desperate for any ray of hope. 

Since you confronted too early, this is what will happen. She is now aware that you know something is up. So she will cool it for a little while until she thinks you're not watching anymore, then she will resume the affair. She's just waiting for the dust to settle and take it further underground. Learn from LostCPAs experience.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/31959-false-recovery.html


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

I would add to LordMayhems advice (which is always on the $$$) and have her tell you all the ways she will demonstrate transparency. I think its VERY important that you tell her that this **** isn't in your head and you have some very valid reasons to suspect. Put her on WARNING that you won't take her gaslight bullsh*t. She demonstrates all of the above, she doesn't minimize your concerns, and she tells you all the ways she will be transparent. If you think she's missed something, you let her know what else she has to do.

Remember, the burden is on her. Not you.


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

Rule of thumb. The more you accuse, the better she'll be at hiding the truth. Because she knows you're on to her. 

Take this letter as if this was something you needed. Hopefully, if she thinks that the letter did the trick, she'll start to relax. That's when she'll make a mistake.


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

Hey all. Thank you for all the advice during this period. Crossbar has pretty much hit the nail on the head. She is by no means off the hook in terms of surveillance. However, as far as she is concerned I am convinced and satisfied there is nothing going on. As Crossbar said, this should lead her into a false sense of security and confidence and if she is still having contact with the OM, I will find out. She has no idea I have access to her itemised phone bill online. She also does not know I have her facebook password. The reason I did not demand her facebook password is it gives her a place to communicate, without knowing I have access to it.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

By all means next time, don't reveal your source, and don't give her a chance to gas-light and blame shift when you catch her again.

The next move you make, if she's not genuine here should be D papers. That will say all you need to. Then when she pressed why, you only need to respond with - she knows why.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

The guy that keeps on showing up. I hope you've made it real clear that she can't be anywhere he is anymore (if he shows up, she leaves, and this needs to be perfectly transparent) - burden is on her to prove.


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## yreffej1980 (Jan 7, 2012)

I've made it clear that she is not to socialise with him and that I am coming on any and all work parties/Nights out from now on. If we can't get a babysitter, and I can't go, then neither can she. As for implementing complete NC, it is difficult. She can't quit her job, and without a confession or physical proof of affair, I can't demand that she tell her boss to make sure they are on different shifts as they would want to know why. Although, if there was physical evidence, they would both be fired due to the nature of the job. Secret relationships are strictly forbidden.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

Dang - wish you had secured those panties! I'll bet you she is feeling relief right now that those stinky panties were found before you had a chance to deal with them!


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

As LordMayhem made a point about the letter being a total gaslight.

I think if your W had done some introspection and brought some of the details on suspicious activities to light, might have been easier to swallow. 

The fact that she told you that it was ALL IN YOUR HEAD - definite deflection there. Wouldn't hurt for you to make some random visits to see her a work at differing times of her shift.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

Secret relationships are condoned in most companies (they exist to cover their butts), doesn't mean they don't happen. It just means that if someone complains that its affecting their ability to perform that it becomes an issue.

Maybe an anonymous letter to HR expressing concern about your W and OM might help drive a wedge into anything that might be there.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Dadof3 said:


> Secret relationships are condoned in most companies (they exist to cover their butts), doesn't mean they don't happen. It just means that if someone complains that its affecting their ability to perform that it becomes an issue.
> 
> Maybe an anonymous letter to HR expressing concern about your W and OM might help drive a wedge into anything that might be there.


Yes, an anon letter to HR might really help here. They would at least open their eyes .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> Yes, an anon letter to HR might really help here. They would at least open their eyes .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's not a bad idea. And the op can say he received a letter as well and that is where his suspicions came from. That is unless he revealed his actual sources already.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> That's not a bad idea. And the op can say he received a letter as well and that is where his suspicions came from. That is unless he revealed his actual sources already.


Now that would be a nice play. Send yourself the anon letter too and show it to her!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> Now that would be a nice play. Send yourself the anon letter too and show it to her!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She'll start thinking of who is watching her. It will certainly make her A a lot less comfortable.


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## ducksauce (Nov 24, 2011)

yreffej1980 said:


> Ok, just quickly as she isn't home from work yet and I haven't read her letter. *Firstly, about the underpants, I have no idea where they went. I know this will sound silly but I didn't put them somewhere safe at the time and they may have been washed.* Do those kits still work on washed clothes? Secondly, as shaylady said, she has shown little care for anyone but herself in the last few months so I wouldn't be surprised if (and I am still saying if. Denial is horrible) she has done something, it probably has been unprotected.


that was probably your best bet at catching her. Oh man.. good luck on the waiting game.


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