# Can an Intervention end an affair?



## iamnottheonlyone

My wife is following the script: 
"I love you, but I am not in love with you". 
You are my best friend.
I need space.
I haven't been happy for a long time.
It has been all about the kids.
I am happy with him.
I thought I was blindsided, but I was just blind. The pink elephant was in the room, but because I love her so much I refused to believe she could be having an affair until it became undeniable....an epiphany.
So here I am wondering if there is a way to end the affair without just waiting it out. A couple days before I knew for certain what was happening she suggested counselling. She had been mean to me which almost never happens. Now she is reluctant to go to counselling. So that appears to be a dead end for now. She told our son. So that roadblock is out of the way. Some of her friends know but I haven't spoken with them. Her sister knows and is prepared to intervene. Would more intervention help? Who has tried? Who has failed?


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## Feelingalone

iamnottheonlyone,

See posts written by Affaircare and Tanelornpete. I'm not the expert they are on breaking affairs and they lay it out the process and steps to take very well.

First ask her to stop after gathering all evidence needed. It seems you are beyond that point. Second, expose to her family and friends -- in a calm and compassionate way letting them know you are trying to work on the marriage and need him out of the way for this to succeed. Seems her sister is on board with that. There are more steps. But I know they'd suggest you go to marriagebuilders.com and review info on love extinquishers, love kindlers, etc.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thank you for the advise. I have checked the websites and reviewed some of the things you have written over time. All these things were helpful in putting things in perspective. So much of what has gone down is "scripted". I have asked one of my wife's good friends to step up. I knew she must have known what was going on. And she did. My wife's friend said she believes in marriage and working through things but will not step up to tell her to stop the affair. They are all co-workers. I talked to another friend of hers who said she would stand by me if I asked for intervention. She said she would do her best. She does not know the boyfriend. 

I would really like to know if any one has tried any of this "exposure" and found to be of help. If you read this, please give it a reply.


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## betrayedhusband

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Thank you for the advise. I have checked the websites and reviewed some of the things you have written over time. All these things were helpful in putting things in perspective. So much of what has gone down is "scripted". I have asked one of my wife's good friends to step up. I knew she must have known what was going on. And she did. My wife's friend said she believes in marriage and working through things but will not step up to tell her to stop the affair. They are all co-workers. I talked to another friend of hers who said she would stand by me if I asked for intervention. She said she would do her best. She does not know the boyfriend.
> 
> I would really like to know if any one has tried any of this "exposure" and found to be of help. If you read this, please give it a reply.



Go to Marriage Builders website/forum and search on exposure. You will find that to be quite a popular subject (and highly recommended by the Harleys). It might not be right for everyone...I guess it depends on your personal situation (although some of the posters over there are rabid supporters of exposing affairs to family, friends, etc.)

Surviving an Affair - Marriage Builders® Forums


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## iamnottheonlyone

What did you do? I just picked up my wife at the airport. (She is staying at her girlfriends) She said "I love you too" today. But when I asked if I was making progress she said I was not. I said that if we were going to make this work she would have to stop seeing OP. She has has been thinking about that but she will continue because she likes it. I can't tell her what to do. I asked if she wanted a divorce. She said she did not. I told her that most of these affairs end in 6 months after exposure. She said she stopped caring about me romantically years ago. (We've had enjoyable sex a couple times a month until the last two months). Then we go to dinner and you would think there was nothing wrong. Looks into my eyes, holds my gaze; absolutley charming. What is up? Is she an incredible fraud? No wonder I never saw this coming? I do love her. Do I wait this out until the flame burns out? I am not angry, but she seems to be. Masking very well. How can I get through.


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## whynot

Wow, she obviously cares for you, even though you cant see that bc of what she is doing with the OP. She seems very attached to this OP IMO, and that is not a good thing for your marriage or you you or her. That is destructive in and of itself. That being said, she can care for you and even love you and not be attracted to you anymore... it does happen in marriage. You mentioned something about you improving and her saying no you havent. 

I agree with closing off her accounts so that you are not funding her activity, thats just wrong/weird actually. I also agree that if you love her that you welcome her back with open arms if she ends the affair, but you truly have to welcome her back, but even then, she may punish you for having her remove this other person. My husband has been punishing me for a year because he had to stop contact with other woman... dont know if he is punishing bc he saw me as the person who took her away or because he was still in contact with her and felt guilty and took it out on me. Either way, he is finally crawling back out of his depressed hole... but still not the person he was... he was having this affair with her while we were dating and even while he was dating others before me... it was going on for 7 years.

I think it has finally reached the end and that is why he is coming out of his hole, so there is something to be said for just waiting it out... bc she may continue to see him secretly anyway. So you could out her and then she will continue anyway as it sounds like her attachment and enjoyment of him is high.

Tread lightly if you dont want to lose her. It may just require firm patience.


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## turnera

The only way she will stop the affair is if you make the AFFAIR not as much fun. If you tell her parents and siblings and other best friends, she will KNOW everyone disapproves of her. If you tell HIS parents, siblings, and friends, they will disapprove of him.

Suddenly, this wonderful fantasy love they think they have will start to smell like yesterday's garbage (assuming he's not just doing it to get some free sex).

And if they work together, you need to go to their HR department and let them know there's a workplace affair going on and you expect them to look into it before you consider whether to get a lawyer. And the lawyer will look for the rich company before they go after any people.

Yes, exposure WORKS.

I've been at MB for years, and I have seen literally dozens of marriages fixed, but ONLY after the betrayed spouse exposes the affair and makes it obvious to the affair partners that no one is going to just accept this replacement person. Your wife will NOT get to bring this guy home to Thanksgiving Dinner. 

Plus, I will add that with wayward wives, only those husbands who take swife, decisive, powerful action accomplish this. The ones who wring their hands, profess their love, beg their spouse to remember the past, etc....those guys LOSE their wives because the wives lose all respect for him.

Your wife NEEDS you to fight for her.

That's why she went out and found a guy who WOULD take strong action, even if it's just to cheat. He excites her because he's not a pansy like her husband (sorry, but that's how a wayward wife thinks).

Yes, exposure works.

You gather proof. You ask her to quit. If she refuses, you expose. Then you shut off her access to money if she's using it to pay for the affair. You close her phone if you're paying for it. You tell her that you will not accept her carrying on ANY affair activity in YOUR home or in front of YOUR kids, and if she does, you will ask her to leave. And if she still continues, you kick her out. Yes, this does work.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thanks for the help everyone. I am heading out to my first therapy session in a few minutes. I really don't know what to expect. Let me add a few things from Right now we are sharing an extra car my brother had. I crashed our car 2 days after I found out while I was trying to pay attention. She texted me this morning:
" I am feeling a lot of angst & frustration due to my lack of transportation.. I'm STILL dependant on you for the car.. I don't have the ability to go where I want when I want! You have the control which makes me resentful...do you get that?"
By the way, she keeps her paycheck..about $50K. She pays for the car (not the insurance) and the rent on a winter ski house (not the utilities). I think the affair was triggered about the time she ran up a $20K credit card bill she couldn't pay and I urged her to get it under control with a credit counselling which she did. She resents me for helping her out of the last 3 similar situations. This all caused me to be more distant and detached. So I do take responsibility for not giving her things she needs. I can see that intervention has its attractions and so does seperation. Anyone have any success with either?
Thanks again for your feedback. I feel much better having people to talk to.


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## turnera

And you answer: "I only have control because we are dealing with your infidelity and your credit issues. If you want more control, take steps to eradicate those issues."


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## Tanelornpete

I've been following this thread, but haven't replied, mostly because I have been trying to get a handle on the exact situation. I will have to say this: you got very good advice from RWB and Turnera. If you want your marriage to recover you would be wise to take their advice. There are still some things I am confused about...

You wife texts: 



> " I am feeling a lot of angst & frustration due to my lack of transportation.. I'm STILL dependant on you for the car.. I don't have the ability to go where I want when I want! You have the control which makes me resentful...do you get that?"


Your wife makes $50K and is complaining about transportation. This makes no sense. With that kind of money, she can pay cash for a decent vehicle. She can get a reliable one for $1500 - $2000. May not be a status symbol, but it is transportation. If you thought this through, you would have to conclude that the issue has _nothing_ to do with transportation. But I do wonder if her comment on control is more on target. How much control do you exert over her? People tend to resent anyone who controls them.

A better way to do things is to avoid control altogether, and instead, allow natural consequences to occur. For example, she runs up a huge credit card debt. Let her handle it. It is no reflection on you. 

I do want to point out something:



> She resents me for helping her out of the last 3 similar situations.


No, she does not resent you helping her. She resents the way she is treated AFTER the help is offered. What she is 'resentful' of (is it a possibility that is the wrong term?) is this:



> This all caused me to be more distant and detached.


Instead of emotional support, you remove yourself. And she finds someone else who DOES offer it. As usual, that's the way most affairs happen. 



> I can see that intervention has its attractions and so does seperation.


Could you please explain what you mean by 'intervention'? If you mean the same thing as a drug intervention, then I would honestly say this would most likely have negative results. There are much better - and more effective steps - to take. See the post by RWB, stuff written by Turnera, see Marriage Builders, and by Affaircare and myself. We've been at this a long, long time, and we have seen it work over and over. 

As for separation: that is a step you take AFTER you exhaust the preceding steps. Do it too soon, and you will simply end your marriage.

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Now playing: Rick Wakeman - Catherine of Aragon
via FoxyTunes


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## whynot

In terms of outing her... maynot work if her friends already know. If you only have your opinion of your marriage on your side (as most men do not talk with their best buddies about marital issues), then you may be surprised to find that her friends already know, parents etc.... if this is the case and they already have an opinion of your marriage or you, outing will backfire.

There is some great advice here, just have to make sure you know your situation well enough to choose the best way.

She makes her own money so stripping her of that wont work, you arent funding her affair.

WIth my husband, I had to state calmy several times, that I would leave the marriage if he didnt start choosing us as a priority. Its not what I want, but I realized that myhusband is so stubbron that it requires a stubborness in return that exceeds his own. He would initially throw back "how could you do that, you cant afford it." Then he said "you wouldnt do it..." I had to calmly stand my ground. I also said I dont want to divorce, but I feel as if he would rather live with lies and distance than an actual marriage (which honestly, I think that is what he prefers). So since this ultimatum he has started stating that he doesnt want us to divorce, he doesnt want me to leave and he wants to have sex. The other woman was in town this past week, so I dont know if something happened there that dissapointed him to the point of seeking me out again or what. 

I have to say I did some damage control talking with the other woman as well She had left an abusive first husband and my husband had begun to emotionally and sometimes physically be abusive... I let her know what was going on in a "girlfriend kind of way. Not at first... I befriended her, she is on my FB page, not his and updated with good things initially. Then, I asked if I could confide. I knew it would destroy whatever feelings she still had for him. I had to do it to bring my husband back to me. Its taken about a year, but it was worth it to end that delusion he had created and she had been spoon feeding.

Perhaps reconsider talking to the OM? Differnt things work for different people.


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## turnera

whynot has valid points, but I would like to point out a BIG fallacy that so very many people make: ASSUMING.

People ASSUME friends know, or parents know, or siblings know, or work knows. In fact, they typically don't. That's half of the allure of an affair - sneaking. That's what gets the adrenaline pumping - not getting caught.

Also, by assuming, you are cutting off a big source of support for you and potential damage for the affair.


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## michzz

turnera said:


> whynot has valid points, but I would like to point out a BIG fallacy that so very many people make: ASSUMING.
> 
> People ASSUME friends know, or parents know, or siblings know, or work knows. In fact, they typically don't. That's half of the allure of an affair - sneaking. That's what gets the adrenaline pumping - not getting caught.
> 
> Also, by assuming, you are cutting off a big source of support for you and potential damage for the affair.


My cheating wife was telling her girlfriends that i was the one who was cheating! It was so bizarre. She's off screwing a guy for most of a decade and during her walks, going for coffee, etc., with her girlfriends she'd whine about me with totally fabricated stories about me. She admitted this to me years later.

I was so angry I made her call up her best girlfriend and tell her the truth.

I used to wonder why I'd get the stink eye from this group of ladies.

Now I know why.

My wife was so messed up that she would be cheating and complaining to her friends about me, get all that hand-wringing and complain about men/cheating husbands for some twisted ego stroke, then go out and do worse than she told them I did. Nevermind that I didn't do it!

What I am trying to say is that a cheating wife lies in ways that you cannot imagine happening. Airing the truth to any and all can only be good.


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## losinglove

To add to what turnera said, family and friends only know what they are told. In my situation when I went to expose to friends I was sure my wife had already talked to them. She had, but left out many of the details of her actions. She had told them she was falling in love with another guy, but not how far their relationship had actually gone. They were very surprised when I provided that information.

The only one that didn't seem too surprised was the one that is having problems in her own marriage.


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## turnera

And those are almost ALWAYS the worst enemies of _your_ marriage. It's like they want to drag your spouse down with them.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thank you all for your advise. I do appreciate it. But remember I asked her to leave as soon as I found out. She left that morning. She thought I told her to tell our son and she did. She is angry with me. It is fair to say there was a fair amount of neglect by both us. I accepted it, which I shouldn't have. She had a natural outlet because of her job. I am trying to put deposits in the love bank but with so little time together I think I am taking more withdrawals. It is so difficult to be upbeat when your heart is ripped out. I am only crying for short bursts once or trice a day and generally about the same images or reflections. In the three days that I had a clue as to what was going on before confrontation and at the confrontation every turn was the wrong one. I am starting to feel like a wimp. I am thinking she is trying to manipulate me, even rewriting our recent history.
I complement her. I have bought flowers on two occasions. She told me to stop. I think I should continue to bring flowers. Not paying her phone bill or her car insurance I see are withdrawals. Getting the second car I/we can't afford is a plus and a minus. She sees me in the positive light of working with her and giving her independence and she has the indepence to drive to her boyfriend's whenever she wants.
As to me bailing her out...each time the issue came up there was a lot of tension. She has nothing to show for spending that kind of money. I never looked at her credit card bil except by accident when opening bills. That is how I found out. No new jewelry. No new clothes...except the draw full of thongs. All the money is spent while traveling. So you see all this training in concealing came to use in the last few months.
I agree that the neglect and inattention from my could be the result of these incidents. It stressed all the things we did together.
Given what you know, all of you, How do I make deposits in the love bank. I text her twice a day even if we talk. All positive thoughts. At this point it seems she just doesn't want to here it. I believe I just have to push through and hope the affair collapses of its own weight. What do you think?


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## turnera

Ask her to fill out the Love Buster questionnaire. It will teach you what YOU do that she doesn't like, so you can stop doing it.


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## iamnottheonlyone

By the way, I slept fairly well last night. Is saw the therapist yesterday. She was no more helpful than you folk. I don't mean that in bad way. Being able to get all of this off my chest to those I can trust is helpful. I think sleep came easier as I am getting perspective. There is no majic bullet. The financial situation for me will only get worse for the next several months no matter what I do. If I don't get the second car I save the money but pay it to a divorce lawyer. Then what we have is split and she can blow all of that. Spend now or spend later.
I am thinking to spin my wheels with a 6 month window before starting to think of other companions. That would put us at our 20th wedding anniversary.
Should I ask her if it is okay to talk with our closest mutual freinds? Should I tell them and ask them to keep it to themselves? I think this one of the areas that is causing a lot of anxiety for me.
What do you think?


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## iamnottheonlyone

I printed out the love busters stuff out two days ago but with the statement by her that I was not making progress, I didn't give it to her. I did not work on mine. She could see this as another attempt at control. I am asking her to do something...withdrawal from the love bank. Maybe I should ask her if she would consider doing it so I can gain a better underatanding about where I went wrong.


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## turnera

Exactly. Make it about YOU, how YOU screwed up. She should love the chance to tell you. 

btw, you don't have to agree to any legal separation or divorce proceedings, in most places. You can refuse to participate, stating only "I don't talk divorce; I only talk marriage." That will gain you time to show her why she should choose you. What marriagebuilders calls Plan A - you being the most awesome you that you can be. The LB and EN questionnaires are part of that step.

Friends...you need someone to talk to. If your goal is to prove to her that you are 100% reliable, tell her first that you need someone to talk to and you're going to talk to them. You don't need her permission.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Giving her a chance to tell me off politely is a point. I like the way you phrased that and it has practical application. 
I am curious that maybe this isn't about bad habits and love busters but just the faded spark that some can not tolerate (and none of us should) We all know that it doesn't take long for the heat of a relationship to cool down.
Anyone have some practical advise? A turn of the phrase. Something I can do when we meet. By the way she still lets me kiss her on the lips but not hald her hand or hug her. I open the door for her. Which she never had a probalem with. She says she can do it herself. I try to put her luggage in the car, she beats me to it. I tell her how pretty she looks today. I don't want to smother.
I believe we are going to dinner Friday. My son needs to get his tux for the prom and my wife is still "owed" a nice Mother's Day dinner. She really putting a wall up. Is this a test of my determination?
I made promises when I married and I never thought I wasn't keeping them. I thought I committed to those words. However, 
I lost my focus over time. I have renewed my vows in my head. I am sure you recognize that if I were 25 and unmarried and dealing with this it is likely I would have moved on. To all of us following these threads marriage to something special to us.


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## turnera

If she will let you, pick something off this list and incorporate it into your lives. It will help keep the spark alive by giving you both something new to look forward to.

Read a book together
Take turns picking out a movie to watch
Bring out the board games, at least once a week
Start a solitaire club with some neighbors or friends, play solitaire against each other one night a week or month
Start gardening together
Grow herbs/vegetables/fruits
Take walks
Start a sport together; take classes at a community college, such as racquetball or volleyball
Get bikes and start riding bikes together
Sign up for an MS 150 and train for the bike ride all year
Plan some day trips, start taking one every month
Try out one new restaurant every week, take turns choosing and surprising the other with it
Go to bookstore and get a book like “52 great invitations to sex” in which you both have 26 invitations for a special evening to invite the other one, and you set it up, give the other the invitation (included in book) and then put on the evening
Join an online gaming community together (but don’t get addicted!)
Buy a Wii or Guitar Hero and play together
Give each other foot rubs
Take massage class together and practice giving each other massages
Go back to school together
Get a pet, take it to obedience school and learn to train it (if applicable)
Join a neighborhood dinner club or other club
Volunteer together
Join a church or get more involved in your church
Take a cooking class together and take turns cooking for each other
Go to HGTV.com and pick out a project to do for your house together
Take free classes at Home Depot on how to fix something at your house
Start a business together
Organize a block party
Organize a family reunion
Start working with a financial planner or learn about stocks together
Take dancing lessons together; if you like it, start entering in competitions
Go online for your city and look up 'activities' and 'family' and maybe even 'free' if your city is big enough; subscribe to those websites and go there every month to look for upcoming activities you can all do together; you can find plays, music events, art things, sports things, picnics, etc.


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## turnera

That said, NEVER believe that she doesn't have some things about you that you do to LB her. We ALL do. It's impossible not to. And anyone who says you do nothing wrong is either lying or just not thinking about it.

And the part about ILY and kissing and doors and such...if you don't know what her top 5 Emotional Needs are, you could be spinning your wheels, wasting your time, even Love Busting, if you try to please her in one way, when her 5 ENs are completely different.

My top EN - because I have so little of it - is my husband's domestic support. It trumps everything. Now, if he were finally to 'get it' and change, and our house was under control, it would probably slip to 3 or 5 or even 10. But without him meeting that need, I couldn't care less that he opens doors for me or buys me things; in fact, it makes me mad, because he chooses things to show love that, to me, require almost no effort.

I have to remind myself, however, that we typically show love to others in the ways WE want to be shown love. He HATES it when I buy him tools, but I think I'm helping him by making chores easier; but his favorite gift ever was when I bought him a weekend on a sailing ship bed & breakfast. Which is the kind of stuff he keeps getting me; when all I want is a new bookcase to better organize.

See how it works?


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## whynot

Im reading in your posts that you asked her to leave when you found out and confronted her AND that she is not interested in reconciling. 

Sorry to be harsh here, but all the research you do on how to make things better are moot, she doesnt want your marriage anymore (unless you mistyped). That is why she is not being responsive and receptive.

Im curious about the way you handled the money issues as it seems you utilized some passive aggressive tactics. 

Perhaps you should focus more on how to make you happy and let go of the need to force something with someone who isnt receptive... perhaps the time away from you "trying" so much will do more good than you actually "trying" so much. Does that make any sense?


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## Tanelornpete

> Thank you all for your advise. I do appreciate it. But remember I asked her to leave as soon as I found out. She left that morning. She thought I told her to tell our son and she did. She is angry with me.


Questions: What gave her the impression you wanted her to tell your son? Why is she angry with you? Are these related?



> It is fair to say there was a fair amount of neglect by both us. I accepted it, which I shouldn't have. She had a natural outlet because of her job. I am trying to put deposits in the love bank but with so little time together I think I am taking more withdrawals.


By 'taking more withdrawals' are you referring to YOURSELF losing feelings equated with love, or SHE is? As long as you refrain from throwing any Love Busters in her direction, and instead concentrate on filling Emotional Needs when you can, you are working in the right direction. You will take a lot of hits during this period of work on the marriage - just try to keep that in mind. If this works out, you will get it back later.

In the other hand, keep in mind that true love is ACTION, not emotion - the emotions are the response to perceptions of prior actions. Your job, right now (it seems you are trying to do a Plan 'A') is to act in ways that show her love. 

Have you read through the steps listed to work on recovery? Affaircare listed them here. 



> It is so difficult to be upbeat when your heart is ripped out. I am only crying for short bursts once or trice a day and generally about the same images or reflections. In the three days that I had a clue as to what was going on before confrontation and at the confrontation every turn was the wrong one. I am starting to feel like a wimp. I am thinking she is trying to manipulate me, even rewriting our recent history.


Don't worry about being upbeat. Simply understand that you WILL experience emotions, and let that happen. It is useless to try to avoid that. And then, when you communicate with her, do so calmly, clearly, and patiently - deliberately. 

In some ways she is trying to manipulate you - and I suspect she feels quite the same about you (the reason for her resentment and anger). Rewriting history is normal behavior for all who are involved in an affair - I've found that to be without exception. So expect that, keep it in mind, and ignore it, unless it causes a problem with someone outside your marriage relationship. In that case, make sure you calmly give your side of the story - and let the other person judge.



> Not paying her phone bill or her car insurance I see are withdrawals.


Those are not withdrawals - although she will see them that way. Those are privileges she gets with the marriage contract. Breaking that contract has consequences, just like any other. Tell her that you would love to pay her phone bill, or keep up the car payments - but only when she returns to the marriage and starts work on it. Those are perks of fidelity. Conditions to the contract. The opposite (losing those perks) are the _consequences_ of her choice to be unfaithful.



> Getting the second car I/we can't afford is a plus and a minus. She sees me in the positive light of working with her and giving her independence and she has the indepence to drive to her boyfriend's whenever she wants.


Don't buy her a car! She makes enough money to own one. She can buy it. If you give in to her demands to enable her affair, you will lose credibility, look like the 'wimp' you are worried about, and you will lose her as she takes everything away from you and gives it to some other guy. 



> As to me bailing her out...each time the issue came up there was a lot of tension. She has nothing to show for spending that kind of money. I never looked at her credit card bil except by accident when opening bills. That is how I found out. No new jewelry. No new clothes...except the draw full of thongs. All the money is spent while traveling. So you see all this training in concealing came to use in the last few months.


I'm sure there was a lot of tension - that's normal. She would feel uncomfortable or embarrasses, you stressed and angry, shocked, etc. But that in itself is not cause for resentment - at least of you. Maybe of herself) What can cause resentment is the MANNER in which you addressed the situations. And looking over that gives you a HUGE clue as to what you can do RIGHT NOW that will be perceived (over time) as filling Emotional Needs and avoiding Love Busters. By changing the WAY you address tense situations, you will show her a person in whom she can trust, turn to, etc.



> I agree that the neglect and inattention from my could be the result of these incidents. It stressed all the things we did together.


What incidents? Running up a credit card debt? If that's what you mean, I'd say, no. You are not alive to micromanage her spending habits. That's something she needs to learn - jut like riding a bike or any other skill. You don't teach someone to ride a bike by doing it for them. They have to build the skill themselves - even learning from crashes, etc. Over time, they get to be very good at it.



> Given what you know, all of you, How do I make deposits in the love bank. I text her twice a day even if we talk. All positive thoughts. At this point it seems she just doesn't want to here it. I believe I just have to push through and hope the affair collapses of its own weight. What do you think?


1) Don't expect positive response from her. 

2) She notives, regardless of what she says.

3) Do the Love Busters/Emotional Needs quizzes by yourself, pretending you are her. You may not do it perfectly, but you do know her better than a lot of other people! Concentrate on the top 4 out of both quizzes. 

4) Concentrate on working on yourself. Work on changing into the person she loves. Let her see that OVER TIME - don't advertise it, just do it. Let her see it by chance. This is probably the most important step you can take. It will have a benefit, regardless of the outcome with your wife.

5) Compliment her, do all the things you are doing. She notices.

And finally, keep in mind, a Plan A is a _temporary_ thing. It will damage you too much over time if you simply do it endlessly. Set a reasonable time limit and keep reassessing it.

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Now playing: Kamel Nitrate - Assam
via FoxyTunes


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## Affaircare

losinglove said:


> To add to what turnera said, family and friends only know what they are told. In my situation when I went to expose to friends I was sure my wife had already talked to them. She had, but left out many of the details of her actions. She had told them she was falling in love with another guy, but not how far their relationship had actually gone. They were very surprised when I provided that information.
> 
> The only one that didn't seem too surprised was the one that is having problems in her own marriage.


Hear! Hear! I know of a person who was working with several other ladies "in the office" and her boss, and told them her and hubby were divorcing and gave her list of "complaints" against him. When hubby asked, "Did you tell them you're having an affair and that might have something to do with why we're splitting and why I reacted in some of those ways?" she said, "I didn't think they needed to know my personal life." :lol: :rofl: Seriously!! So when a person is in an affair not only do they rewrite the history of the marriage to justify doing what they know is wrong--they also justify it to their friends, coworkers and family. And yep almost all will say "I'm divorcing (spouse) because s/he (insert justifications here)" and casually FORGET to mention that they are having an *affair*!


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## turnera

That's also a reason that it's in your best interests to tell them FIRST. Whoever gives their 'version' first is usually the one who garners the support or belief. Especially if the wayward comes in first and says you're a psycho, or she's afraid of you, etc. Once she says that, they won't believe a word you say.


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## iamnottheonlyone

"Whynot" makes a good point. My wife said she would go to counselling but was not receptive until this week. Hey most of us betrayed are trying to lure the other back. It ain't over til its over.
New problem...
The therapist she was to meet with called me and told me she can't see her. Her schedule is full and her supervisor is concerned abour her case load. My wife is on a trip so I haven't had the chance to discuss this. It was very difficult to get that appointment. I called the resource the therapist directed me to and explained my situation. I could not get them to schedule a session with out her involvemant. I don't know how my wife will react to this. My thoughts are to just give her the phone number and ask her to call. We are going to dinner tomorrow night.
Her number one EM is our son. I have been the principal care giver for 16 years. He will not leave me for her. I will do the surveys and see how she comes out. I will also give them to her tomorrow night. Yeah, my marriage might be over, but I'm not walking away. It doesn't have to be over forever. Am I right? Isn't that why we are having these exchanges. This forum wouldn't be of much interest if the betrayed was simply told to move on.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Let me throw out a couple of things. I expect to do the right thing for my son. I am trying to set a good example. Of what I can share with him from this experience I hope he will use in his marriage. He will have his eyes open. He will pay attention to details or pay the consequences. Maybe he will move on if his wife cheats on him or do his best to make it work. Yeah, I gave my word and it means something.


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## iamnottheonlyone

One of the two friends I have told about my problem called me today. He said he was disturbed that I am appearing to be a doormat. He has a friend whose wife is continuing an affair while still in the home. The BS is getting no respect from anyone. He said I have to take a harder bargaining position. That I have leverage and should use it. I told him I have an end date for Plan A. Oct. 7 our 20th anniversary. Also she cannot live with me at home while still seeing him. 
Last night I slept fairly well. My appitite is returning (Only lost 10pounds).
When I was younger I would be thinking that she found somebody better looking or better kept. Now I can see how life is so predictable. In my job I tell people everyday that what has happened to them happens all the time. Its personal by they can get through like most people do. I have to listen to my own advise.
You all are helping me chart a better course. Even though I took a couple wrong turns over the past month I can't see it having ended up musch differently. Having her in the home while still cheating would be unbearable.
Not in my wildest dreams would I have thought a bunch of strangers could be so generous. You are all so kind. I thank you all. 
We are going to dinner tonight with my son and his girlfriend. My wife has not returned the text I sent this morning so it probably means she is with her boyfriend. I am going to hold a stronger position. I am not scared anymore.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Pretty good night. I was strong. We had a great dinner tonight with my wife, son and his girlfriend. Plenty of laughs. I listened more intently then I have for years. She is beautiful. We both looked iinto each others eyes more then we have in years. Still, at the end of the night she wouldn't let me help her out of her chair. She did kiss me on the lips still. I never played doormat. She said she will go to counselling next week. I think I did the best I could with Plan A. Is there hope? What do you think? I will see her tomorrow night. She is still pissed at not having her own car.


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## iamnottheonlyone

She wore the claddar ring tonight. Is it for him or me? I will take it as for me.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife texted me this morning and admitted her anger and some sadness. Mostly anger. I arranged counselling for her yesterday with a seperate therpist in the same group that my therapist is in. She thinks seperate therapist is a bad idea. She insists on seeing mine. No harm there. She doesn't like the group practice, but she will go to see the same therapist. She says she still needs a break. If she is goiing to therapy that would be okay, right?


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## Tanelornpete

> I arranged counselling for her yesterday with a seperate therpist in the same group that my therapist is in. She thinks seperate therapist is a bad idea. She insists on seeing mine. No harm there. She doesn't like the group practice, but she will go to see the same therapist. She says she still needs a break. If she is goiing to therapy that would be okay, right?


I tend to agree with your wife - counseling with her is a much better idea. With one proviso. I would make SURE that the therapist is absolutely, 100% pro-marriage. 

Seeing a therapist together can give the feeling of safety to talk about things that you both may feel unsure of working on with just the two of you. Over time, that feeling of security to move to just the two of you, but for now, it is a good idea.

And her 'needing a break' is essentially a way of getting you out of the equation so that she can carry on her affairs without nosy husband guy butting in on all her 'private' business - wanting her to be faithful and all. I'd be more wary of that, although if it does come to that, be SURE you take NO part in helping her separate, NO part in funding, NO support. Simply let her do it, completely alone, and let lover-boy fill in all the things you normally do. Let her experience the consequences of her decisions. 

----------------
Now playing: Miles Davis - So What
via FoxyTunes


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am not buying into giving her a break. I think that you are absolutely right about giving her space to continue the affair would be stupid of me. She is feeling the stress. I am thinking the anger is coming because she made a mistake in trying to read my mind and thinking I didn't love her. Now she knows I do and she is angry with me because I didn't make that clear to her. She now done a series of "bad" things that she is holding me responsible for.
I think my counsellor feels marriages should be saved.


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## iamnottheonlyone

She called a little while ago and was clearly angry. She went to dinner with my son and I will drive her back to her girlfriend's place. I gave her the suggested questionnaires last night. That could be what it is about. She might have done them and determined how ticked off she was at me. Or she might have trashed them and she is ticked off that I asked. In either case I am staying cool. I slept well last night and I am not going to feed into this. She has agreed to go to counselling. That is positive. She'll get her space if she realy wants it.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I spent much of the day with her today. My son had a sporting event. We did not talk about our relationship at all. I tried to be normal. She was mostly normal, occassionally testy. I am hoping my behavior will add to my LB. Ofcourse I didn't feel normal.. i am stressed. Her anger is better than no feelings at all isn't it? Knowing that the affair still continues is gnawing at my soul. I see further exposure of this affair as counter productive.


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## turnera

To whom did you expose?

Are you aware of Plan A?


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## iamnottheonlyone

She self exposed to my son and her sister. I am on Plan A. All positive energy. Struggling. But at the end of the day she said she loved me. She also said she was looking forward to her first counselling session. (However, she could be travelling e=with her byfriend this weekend?) Stay tuned.


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## turnera

ROFL

That is NOT exposure! Exposure is what YOU do, to make sure the truth is told.

No wonder she's still cheating. She has no reason NOT to. You're condoning it.

If she is still seeing her boyfriend, YOU need to call her parents, her sibllings, her best friends, your pastor. And you need to call HIS parents/siblings/best friends.

This is one of the ONLY ways to end an affair - by them knowing that EVERYONE important to them now knows what they're doing. That way it makes it no fun any more, embarrassing, even slimy, depending on how people react around them.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thanks Tan,

However, your recommendation to speak to the world about her cheating on me I don't intend to follow at this time. Let me tell you why. I see myself as a nice guy. Our closest friends and family would not believe any history rewrites. 

I am putting my best foot forward with her now. It seems to be having a positive effect. Dragging her name through the mud right now would be counter productive. After she attends therapy on Tuesday (if that happens) I will evaluate the results. From there I will ask you and the others on this forum, who have been so supportive, to give me their opinions. If progress is not being made or I sense she is playing me I could move to Plan B. No sense wasting time and emotonal effort. It is exhausting.


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## Tanelornpete

> Dragging her name through the mud right now would be counter productive.


So true. That's why we recommend exposing the affair instead.


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## turnera

Please explain how you equate telling her parents the TRUTH with dragging her name through the mud.

What did YOU do?

NOTHING.

What did SHE do?

CHEAT.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Knowing that the affair still continues is gnawing at my soul.


...and yet, apparently not enough to risk her anger or stand up in front of friends and family to fight for your marriage. You know for a fact that your wife is emotionally unfaithful and if left to her own devices would be sleeping with another man, and that is not enough "gnawing at your soul" to stir you to take a heroic stand for your family!! 



> I see further exposure of this affair as counter productive.


I see. And how's that working for you? Has that ended the affair? Has it allowed your wife to experience the consequences of her choices so she can learn faster? Has it given your family and friends the opportunity to HELP you end the affair or support you as you go through this? OR IS SHE STILL SLEEPING WITH SOME OTHER MAN? 

iamnottheonlyone--when SHE "exposes" to people she says something like this: "iamnottheonlyone and I are having marital difficulties. I haven't been the perfect wife but he has been neglecting me, is never home, does not pay attention to me, and after years of being lonely and afraid to say anything, I've decided I deserve some happiness too. I haven't felt love for him for years and I just can't go on faking it any longer." What she accidentally forgets to mention--OOPS!--is that whilst some of those things may be partially true, she decided to deal with it by turning to another man, choosing to not stop herself from developing feelings, and rather than honoring her commitment she's now having an unfaithful AFFAIR! Oh...that's not "their business."   

I encourage you to stop rationalizing your fears and get moving! Do you want to save your marriage or coddle your cheater?


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## losinglove

> "iamnottheonlyone and I are having marital difficulties. I haven't been the perfect wife but he has been neglecting me, is never home, does not pay attention to me, and after years of being lonely and afraid to say anything, I've decided I deserve some happiness too. I haven't felt love for him for years and I just can't go on faking it any longer."


If she puts it this nice...My wife was telling her friends that 'I was a complete ass and didn't care about her or the kids. I never did anything with them, never wanted to do anything with them' and much more. The worse part was when I first found out she was telling other this and I confronted her she repeated it to me, and had me believing it for a while, but I know it was all her justifying the affair.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Maybe she is still mostly the woman I loved when I met her? My inattention to her being viewed as lack of love for her, she hardened her heart to protect herself. She said she felt that I merely tolerated her. Could she be testing my love for her? Before she will give up this guy does she not need to know that I am the real thing? That I will give her the attention she deserves? That I will sit with her and watch that reality show she loves but which does not hold my interest for long? I can do that. Why should she give him up if she is not convinced that I have turned around 180 degrees (as she has said)? Could it be that she is angry with me because I allowed her to jump the gun? She assumed I wouldn't care if she left. If at any point she had told me she was unhappy I would have jumped at the chance to make her happy. I was in a comfortable rut. Now I have driven off the road into a ditch .. and I need a tow!


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## turnera

Go to marriagebuilders.com. Read everything they have. They have a PLAN to fix your marriage, so that she will not have a reason to look elsewhere. You CAN fix your marriage. You just have to be educated on how to do it.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Losinglove: What you wrote is just what I heard from her. Just the "never home" part didn't fit. We were home together watching different tvs. For a split second I thought she wrote it!
Turnera: I gave my wife some of the marriagebuilder stuff. The next morning she texted me about how angry and sad she was. Mostly angry. I will read the marriagebuilders stuff.


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## losinglove

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Maybe she is still mostly the woman I loved when I met her? My inattention to her being viewed as lack of love for her, she hardened her heart to protect herself. She said she felt that I merely tolerated her. Could she be testing my love for her? Before she will give up this guy does she not need to know that I am the real thing? That I will give her the attention she deserves? That I will sit with her and watch that reality show she loves but which does not hold my interest for long? I can do that. Why should she give him up if she is not convinced that I have turned around 180 degrees (as she has said)? Could it be that she is angry with me because I allowed her to jump the gun? She assumed I wouldn't care if she left. If at any point she had told me she was unhappy I would have jumped at the chance to make her happy. I was in a comfortable rut. Now I have driven off the road into a ditch .. and I need a tow!


Are we married to the same woman? Ok, bad forum for that joke.  My wife has also said some of these things. She is still VERY cautious, as am I. She has actually told me she didn't think I would care, or even notice, if she just walked out and didn't return.

AC actually wrote that (see the <i>quote</i>, I just reiterated it and expanded a little.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Maybe she is still mostly the woman I loved when I met her?


It is not utterly inconceivable, but it is highly unlikely. You see, in order to continue an affair that she knows is wrong at least on some level (I mean religious or not, the majority of societies think that being unfaithful to your spouse is not cool--unless there's an understanding of an open marriage and that's not the case here) that means that she has to "rewrite" history in order to justify it. So she has convinced herself you are the cause and she was never happy, etc. Seriously there will be days that you look at her and think "You LOOK and sound like my wife, but WHO ARE YOU?" 



> ... My inattention to her being viewed as lack of love for her, she hardened her heart to protect herself. She said she felt that I merely tolerated her. Could she be testing my love for her?


Again it's not utterly inconceivable that she might be testing your love, and I respect you too much to tell you anything less that the real truth. Your inattention to her probably was viewed as lack of love or worst (I know I took it that way), and it no doubt *did* contribute to her being vulnerable to another person coming along. But ultimately each individual adult is responsible for themselves and their choices, and she could have just as easily have come to you, said "Your inattention is making me lose my love for you and if you don't do something different BDQ I am thinking of leaving you" and then done the honorable thing and separated to give you time to "get it" ...and honored her vow by keeping her affection and loyalty only to you. Oh yeah...the vows.



> Before she will give up this guy does she not need to know that I am the real thing? That I will give her the attention she deserves? That I will sit with her and watch that reality show she loves but which does not hold my interest for long? I can do that. *Why should she give him up* if she is not convinced that I have turned around 180 degrees (as she has said)?


Ah see--this is a very clever common ploy that a disloyal will use! They deflect attention from the affair they are actively choosing by blaming their spouse. Now, let's sidestep the Disloyal Dizziness and look at it objectively. Your wife voluntarily made a vow to you--that is like signing a business contract verbally. The contract did not say: "I take you to be my husband as long as you watch my reality show and pay attention to me, but otherwise I'm free to leave." It did not even say "I take you to be my spouse as long as you make me happy, but if you stop making me happy I'm released from the promise." Nope. It said "I take you to be my spouse, forsaking all others--for better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, as long as we both live." You ask:* "Why should she give him up?" *I'll tell you why. Because she has a lifelong covenant WITH YOU not him, and it's not based on "happiness." Her covenant is to be with you and try to make a meaningful relationship with you until she has died. She should give him up to demonstrate that she is person who honors her commitments even when the going gets tough and it's hard for her. She should give him up to teach her children that you don't leave family and that when you marry you become ONE with your spouse. Does that make sense?



> Could it be that she is angry with me because I allowed her to jump the gun? She assumed I wouldn't care if she left. If at any point she had told me she was unhappy I would have jumped at the chance to make her happy. I was in a comfortable rut. Now I have driven off the road into a ditch .. and I need a tow!


It's conceivable she is angry with you for becoming comfortable in taking her and your marriage for granted. Shoot, it's LIKELY! And she probably has huge resentments that have gotten infected and festered too. That's still not the point. She volunteered to share herself and everything with you for life. Thus, even if she she were to ultimately decide to end the marriage, the affair is nothing other than wrong. It is a way to have some needs met that weren't being met and she turned it into "a fantasy love" wherein loverboy is her soulmate and her destiny. Blah Blah Blah. Again that kind of talk is all smoke and mirrors--Disloyal Dizziness. Ignore that and focus on standing for your family: by protecting you and your children from her infidelity shenanigans and by being a lighthouse to guide her safely back to shore.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife should be at counselling right now. I will be driving her to the airport in a couple hours. I will let you know how things go.
I had a long talk with a friends of mine today. On the surface their relationship appears much like my relationship with my wife. Very happy and content. They were shocked. We have spent a lot of time together. I am starting to feel Plan Bish. The strain is pressing on me. I can say I have not had a drink and not taken any medication. I was asking them if I should give her all the space she wants. If I do I may recover emotionally but lose my desire to be with her. I don't want that. I love her. I have kept my vows and want my son to do the same.
I don't think I mentioned it, but my mom tossed my dad out when I was my son's age. She got bored. She didn't have an affair. And he is a great guy. Probably the right thing for him ultimately. He made his best effort but it wasn't good enough. I never thought I would be in a similar situation.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I was roamong around the house a little while ago looking to see what else my wife took last week. My 17 year old son asked me what I was doing. I told him. He said, "Why don't you change the locks?" Wasn't I surprised by that.
I also spoke to one of our closest mutual friends. He said I really should think hard about taking her back. Could I ever trust her? Would the marriage fail then anyway?


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## iamnottheonlyone

Help!! Really, really tough ride to the airport. She went to counselling. She wants her son to love her. She asked me to leave the house so she couuld come back. I told her that she could come back but I am not leaving. She started balling her eyes out and screaming at me. I can't remember any of the specifics of our exchanges but the tone was "Get lost!" She said the boyfriend was incidental. That it was the money issues and how I treated her. She confessed to $40,000.0 in credit card debt. So is that not another betrayal? Is there hope? She texted me ten minutes later and said she was sorry and that she will always love me (like a friend?) She liked my therapist. Will she go again?


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone~

In a way there is not enough information here or something because this is not adding up...but let me see if I understand this correctly. 

Your wife makes a salary of $50K annually and keeps her money for herself...*and* she has somehow managed to also accumulate ANOTHER $40k in credit card debt! So the house is run on your income, she's mad at you because you won't buy her a car, she says "No, it couldn't be the boyfriend...it's MONEY?"










I mean.... IS SHE KIDDING?

I can see why you're feeling Plan B-ish, the fog has rolled in thick as pea soup!

In an effort to sidestep the Disloyal Dizzy Talk, may I just point out something? My Dear Hubby and I have raised seven children (count 'em...SEVEN) and never earned more than $30K TOGETHER. We have a house, an SUV that is paid for and a few years old, and no debt. So if she thinks the $90k she has received is insufficient? She is delusional!!

It literally, really, for real may be the wisest and most loving thing you can do to follow your son's advice: change the locks, and allow her to find out what life is like WITHOUT *ANY *of your contribution. And FYI, I'd cancel those credit cards ASAP!! If you two ever do divorce you will be on the hook for all that debt, even if the divorce said it's hers they come after you. Get a separate bank account and some kind of legal protection now, so that you are not held liable for her ongoing financial irresponsibility. You may be on the hook for this much, but at least you can stem the flow!

Let her boyfriend try to meet that and she'll learn BDQ!


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## iamnottheonlyone

Sorry. I had to cook dinner. I have been the main provider and the primary caregiver. When she started walking away from me at the airport, I asked her to come back and give me a kiss. She did. 
Back to the money issue. As I have said before she only was responsible for 2 bills. She couldn't pay the ski house bill..$5000. I paid it and she agreed to pay me back at $500 per month. Remember that I pay everything else and have a tight budget. She makes $50K and has nothing to show for it. She said I shouldn't have made her pay me back. At 49 years old can I not insist she be responsible? She only paid $1000 and then I never asked for any more. Does this make me a bad husband? Can we get through this issue? I did talk to her in "the tone". 20/20 hindsight doesn't get me doing anything different. Am I wrong? How should I handle the budget if we can get back together?


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thank you Affaircare. Those are the pieces. So I am only crazy because I always trusted her in love and money. No good deed goes unpunished.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone~

Actually at 49 years old you can not insist that she be responsible. That would be forcing her to do things your way and that's controlling. Trust me when I say that even if you tried to "make" her be responsible, she would find a way to sneak and cheat and steal somehow. 

Here's what you can do. You can control YOUR money. You can can control what you contribute, where and how. You can control your house/family. So she's free to leave, live off her salary, and take care of herself...on HER dime. She can pay rent for a place and bills. She can get her own credit cards. Like I said, Dear Hubby and I have raised 7 children making less that $30k a year together, so she can live--she just doesn't want to do it. 

And here is a newsflash for her. If she leaves you, it's not like she'll get alimony. She probably won't even get child support because you are the primary caregiver. So she would get her paycheck and possibly some assets (like the ski house or a retirement fund)...which she would piss through like the prodigal son squandered his inheritance. But after that, she is DIVORCED from you and has no further claim on you, your life or your income. EVER. At All! 

So the way to handle the budget is easy. You set a boundary around YOU (not her). You can't "make" her be financially responsible and she is completely free to BURN her money if she wants--after all it is hers. But you can decide what you will and will not allow in your life. You can say that you love her and would look forward to having her back in your life...when she has demonstrated to you that she is able to be responsible financially, that her debt is under control, and that she's willing to contribute as an equitable partner to the family and not leave the whole burden on you. If she makes $50k and you make $150K, it's reasonable if you pay 3/4 and she pays 1/4 (proportionate to the earning) but SHE PAYS! And her bills would be something that if she doesn't pay, it's shut off and the whole family doesn't suffer like her cell phone or her credit card  

Does that make sense?


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## iamnottheonlyone

It makes great sense. As much as I love her I could be forever in financial trouble with her return to the household. I have been in touch with a financial planner and told her I would meet with her no matter if my wife wants to or not.
I spoke to our mutual friend a short time ago and he thinks this money issue is a smoke screen. It is still about the boyfriend. She said on the ride over to the airport that she has been happier alone than she has in years. I can say she sure hasn't been showing that to me the last few weeks. She is stressed, tired, moody and confused. If that's happy I'm a monkey's uncle.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife left a text that she would continue counselling.


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## turnera

Who flipping CARES what the real issue is? 

This woman loves ONLY HERSELF!

Can't you see that?

My God.

You are worth more than this.

Please don't continue to let your kids see you grovel like this. They will become who their parents are. Don't do this to them.

PLEASE let her learn her lessons on her own. Cut off ALL money. Change the locks. Don't promise her ANYTHING else until she agrees to all your terms.


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## iamnottheonlyone

You are not mincing words. It has been about a month now. I am certainly thinking clearer and you and Affaricare have been particularly helpful.
I will see the Therapist today. It willl be interesting to see what she thinks and what directions she might be giving to my wife. My conversation with my wife last night didn't really give me a clue other than it helped to open her up. If it is and has been all about her, not about us, I will need to reevaluate. We are about three weeks away from an opening in a very respected marriage counselling practice. If my therapist is not a negative influence I can hang in there.
Even if she gave up the boyfriend and came home you can see there is a tremendous amount of work to be done. Maybe too much. I will take it one day at a time.


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## iamnottheonlyone

When we were on or way to the airport she said she would not come home. Here is her text. 
I'm so sorry that had to happen in that way...I would much rather we sit down...plz continue counselling.. she is good. I will always love you. I'm sorry.
Now that I read that in the light of day it sounds more like a final good bye. Do I keep trying? Comments.


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## turnera

I'm sorry I was harsh but you are falling into the trap so many betrayed husbands do: desperation and willingness to take her back on any terms - HER terms. That only ends in disaster.

You don't HAVE to have her in your life. If she were dead, you'd still survive. What's more important is that each of you stay true to yourselves. That means you have to decide what your boundaries are. Read up on them. They are what you personally can accept in your life. If you're OCD, a spotless house may be a necessity. If your parents lied to you, honesty may be one. So on. 

Figure those out. For YOU. 

THEN...sit back and figure out if she honestly - pre affair - has the qualities that fit with your boundaries. We very often marry people we know nothing about. Or we know nothing about ourselves. Good for counseling - it will help you tremendously figure yourself out.

Now, as for what SHE says? She is in a FOG. She has no CLUE what the hell she's saying. It is ALL being dictated by those stupid chemicals in her brain pushing her to keep finding more and more 'highs' to keep feeling good...until she crashes and realizes she doesn't have to have those highs, because she's an adult. Those chemicals are for young people to fall into lust and procreate. But when married people run across them, they convince themselves it's love, when it's really just an addiction like any other.

For now, don't listen to a word she says. Concentrate on ending ANY cheating. Do Plan A (be the best person you can be). Always look great, smell great, be amazing. For her and for you. If she cuts through the fog, she may see you standing there, being amazing, and realize what she almost threw away. Hopefully, you won't have fallen out of love with her by then.


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## Ari

iamnottheonlyone said:


> My wife is following the script:
> "I love you, but I am not in love with you".
> You are my best friend.
> I need space.
> I haven't been happy for a long time.
> It has been all about the kids.
> I am happy with him.
> I thought I was blindsided, but I was just blind. The pink elephant was in the room, but because I love her so much I refused to believe she could be having an affair until it became undeniable....an epiphany.
> So here I am wondering if there is a way to end the affair without just waiting it out. A couple days before I knew for certain what was happening she suggested counselling. She had been mean to me which almost never happens. Now she is reluctant to go to counselling. So that appears to be a dead end for now. She told our son. So that roadblock is out of the way. Some of her friends know but I haven't spoken with them. Her sister knows and is prepared to intervene. Would more intervention help? Who has tried? Who has failed?


Relationships do come full circle, though our gut tells us immediately its over; our heart shifts into self preservation (too late) and quickly muster up makeshift blinders that steer us into denial! Sux !! 
I feel for you, sorry. I don't believe intervention will serve to help you any more than the OM has. Neither your wife or her fling gave you any consideration before you got here. 
Why would you think that by inviting more people to the party your wife would give you any more consideration than she had before she started her dance.
Do you really think that by getting more people to interfere with your relationship is going to help bring you both back together? I think you need to find out what you really want & grow some balls to face your reality. I think you like to be in the spotlight come hell or high water and an intervention is your way of having all eyes on you. I am genuinely sorry you are at this cross road. But in my opinion interventions generally are never a good idea for a gazillion reasons !!


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## Ari

Can I also just mention. The blame game only serves to shift the problem from one person to another without resolution.
We can only assume your wife is this or that because that is how it is perceived through what you've written.

She sounds like she knows what she wants, and in a good light is affirmative. On the other hand, your sharing her text she sent you with the forum. Excuse me as I say this, while she blows smoke up your a$%; your *****ing or acting out. She obviously knows how sensitive you are and is still trying to let you go gently. While your hanging in there by your claws.

There's no right or wrong. Its just that this dance is over and its time to go home 



turnera said:


> Who flipping CARES what the real issue is?
> 
> This woman loves ONLY HERSELF!
> 
> Can't you see that?
> 
> My God.
> 
> You are worth more than this.
> 
> Please don't continue to let your kids see you grovel like this. They will become who their parents are. Don't do this to them.
> 
> PLEASE let her learn her lessons on her own. Cut off ALL money. Change the locks. Don't promise her ANYTHING else until she agrees to all your terms.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Ari and Turnera.. Thanks.
I am trying to keep my word and my vows...for as long as I can. I have balls but lately they've shunk. As you know power struggles can be a great source of conflict. I like to win arguments. So does my wife. But as we see now there are no winners. In her mind she may have moved on the day she left. She IS trying to let me down easy. I am not going for it. I am not wimping now. 

No matter how much space she wants she can't have me out of the picture entirely.We have a number of things we will be doing together over the next several weeks. She could choose not to go. Or I could. But I am going to these events. I am going there comfortably whether she likes it or not. Turnera, you said to keep the package (the physical me) in good shape. That has never been an issue. I run, weight lift and do other sports (skiing and golf with my wife). I am very fit. I always dress well and my looks haven't dropped off. So the outward part is not an issue as far as I can see. My wife is the same. However, she is definately concerned about losing her beauty. My wife would say most women find me attractive and interesting. So the issue beomes just how attractive and interesting should I be at these events? Will that make her anymore attracted to me, which is clearly all I would be concerned about.


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## turnera

Definitely. LET her see the other women looking admiringly at you. Let her see you enjoy being looked at. Let her wonder what life would be like for YOU if she leaves.


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## Affaircare

You know.... I believe we are getting off track here following the minutia of "what did this mean?" and trying to get her to go to therapy etc. Those things are all distractions and reactionary, and to some degree they are meant to be that way. As you react to her and get distracted reading into the nuance of every word, you are NOT focusing on the steps you can be taking that can save your marriage. Overall there are two big steps: 1) end the affair and 2) once it's ended, rebuild a better marriage. 

Let's not be distracted and reactionary here. Let's focus on the tasks at hand to protect yourself and your family. It may help right now to think of your wife as a ship lost in a fog in a storm. You need to be a firm, steady lighthouse on the shore to show her the way back. And until she's back, you NEED to stand firm to protect yourself, your children, your family, and your family's assets from her irresponsibility. 

I do have an article about ending the affair--step you can take to end your spouse's affair. Not to toot my own horn or anything, but those steps WORK and marriages have been saved here on this forum following those steps. So, let's get back on track and not be distracted by the implications in her latest txt. 

In summary here are the steps:
Step 1) Gather evidence. 
Step 2) Confront.
Step 3) Disclose.
Step 4) Expose.
Step 5) Carrot & Stick.
Step 6) Consequences.
Step 7) Legal Separation. 

I believe you are past the first step, because you have sufficient evidence that you are convinced there is an affair. I am not positive if you've done step 2 though. That is where you confront her directly with the evidence (with a copy safely out of the house in a safety deposit box for example), let her know that you KNOW it is an affair and ask her directly to end ALL contact with the OM and never, EVER contact him again...and give you access to all of her accounts so you can verify her honesty. That would include all email accounts, facebook, etc. Have you directly asked her to end her affair?

I know for a fact we did suggest disclosing and exposing the affair (steps 3 and 4) and that you thought she had already told some people--but we told you that usually HER version of telling people is more like "...Well iamnottheonlyone and I are divorcing because he was so neglectful and awful to me and the kids. Now he's keeping me away from the kids and he's kicked me out of the house! (insert teary eyes and shocked face of horror here)." A disloyal spouse will rarely IF EVER disclose that they are actively pursuing an adulterous relationship! 

So if you have asked her to end her affair directly, have you spoken to one other person whom she might regard with some respect (this is usually her parent, a pastor, or maybe her employer/mentor) and let them know she is actively unfaithful and asked them to help you by talking to her and telling her what she's doing is wrong? If not, why do you not care enough about your wife to help her end her pain and confusion faster? Keeping the affair secret is part of the allure of it, but once everyone knows about it and it's brought to the light of day, it is seen for what it is (UGLY and HURTFUL) and it's not as appealing. It's no fun when someone you respect has to look you in your eye and say, "I know about your adultery and that is wrong. You know it's wrong, I brought you up better than this. As long as you continue in unfaithfulness I can not accept this other person and you have lost a lot of respect in my eyes." DING--that grass is no longer quite so green. 

And if you HAVE disclosed it to someone she respects...and she has hardened her heart and refuses to stop... have you exposed the affair? This would be to pro-marriage friends, co-workers, your family, her family, etc. so she has people in her life telling her how destructive divorce is! Right now the people in her life are telling her how she'll feel free and how she will be "happy" (YEAH...RIGHT!) and she's surrounded herself with pro-divorce people; she NEEDS people to speak up who are pro-marriage and will tell her the TRUTH! And iamnottheonlyone, please DO NOT fall for the disloyal's typical distraction here: "HOW COULD YOU drag my name through the mud like that?" It is not you telling the truth about what's happening that is dragging her name through the mud. You are telling the TRUTH! It is her choices and her ACTIONS that are doing the damage, and she has had two chances (during confrontation and the one-on-one disclosure) to do the right thing, stop the affair, and not harm her reputation!! Guess what...a WHOLE LOT of green is removed from the grass when she finds out her family will NOT be happy for her, that her children will not accept the OM, that she will lose them half time OR MORE, etc. She very desperately needs to hear these things and not from you--from her friends and family and co-workers. 

And if this is a work affair, her boss NEEDS to be told. Company resources are being used to further an unwanted sexual contact (you as the spouse do not want it). Productivity is greatly decreased because they use the time to carry on this affair! They are wide open to a sexual harassment lawsuit! And don't you think the affair might end if her boss called her into the office and took away her affair email, affair laptop, affair expense account, etc.? 

Finally the OM's wife needs to be told. Her husband is being sexually inappropriate with another woman and she may be at risk for STD's and on the verge of losing her home and family. She needs to have all the facts so she can deal with her own marriage, make up her own mind, and take action. And don't you think the affair might look a little less rosey once the OM's W puts down her foot and says, "IT ENDS HERE!"??

If you refuse to do these steps which I know for a fact DO SAVE MARRIAGES from affairs, I would like to know your reasoning. I have to admit, I can not imagine what would be a reasonable explanation for why you would not do everything you can to end this as quickly as possible and save your marriage and family--but I'm willing to hear your thoughts. 

An affair is to a marriage like cancer is to your health. Cancer does not "just go away" and the longer you leave it alone, the bigger and stronger it becomes. But to stop cancer you have to do two scary things: 1) take medicines that hurt and are hard, and 2) have surgery to REMOVE THE CANCER...which is scary. If you do not do it, you will die. And iamnottheonlyone, it's the same here. The longer you let the affair continue, the bigger and stronger it becomes. If you do not do the hard part, and the scary part to remove it...your marriage will die. 


So, if you have no reason--it's time to get busy! Confront or Disclose or Expose...and do it TODAY!!


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## finallyseewhy

Affaircare-I always enjoy reading your stuff I am going to have to bookmark that! I use to believe that exposing an affair would only shame me and I will say it DOES work. I probably shouldn't talk because I have yet to tell my family or his but I did expose it to his colleagues/friends and it made a BIG difference.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Finallyseewhy, Can you tell me a little more. I have been expanding the circle of people who know but none of them heve been willing to intercede. Affaircare, I will read your materials. I did tell her to end this but remember she is out of the house. She can just ignore me. However, I am calling her parents tonight. 
I met with our therapist today. She believes that I should not give up. She said my wife is NOT ready to talk about our marriage but wants to talk logistics. Clearly my W is stressed out and wants to smooth things over for our son. I am not going to make it easy for her.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Finallyseewhy, Can you tell me a little more. I have been expanding the circle of people who know but none of them heve been willing to intercede.


Here are some ideas:
Your family--parents, brothers and sisters, cousins, aunts and uncles (each family is different and some "aunts & uncles" are close in age to the person). 
HER family--parents, brothers and sisters, cousins, aunts and uncles. 
Neighbors
Co-workers
Her boss
The corporate Human Relations department 
People from church or shul (if you go)
Your pastor, minister, rabbi, or religious leader
Your friends--your best buddy, the guys you hang with, the men in your DND group...
HER friends--her best buddy, her gal friends from childhood, the ladies in her play date circle, other soccer moms....
The OM's Wife
Anyone else who might be of a positive influence. 

Now, you don't have to tell ALL those people--just those are ideas for you to choose from. Also, just because you tell them does to mean they will do an intervention. Shoot when I told my M-I-L and his siblings that my exH had left me and the kids they "just wanted him to be happy." But when he tried to bring around the OW they weren't comfy having her around...because they knew who she was! It's not supposed to be a band of people who will yell at her. It's supposed to make is so that she can't keep the affair secret and hidden--and so those who could lose time with their grandkids (for example) know what is happening. After that it is on their conscience to help or not. 



> Affaircare, I will read your materials. I did tell her to end this but remember she is out of the house. She can just ignore me. However, I am calling her parents tonight.


 Good move. They need to know that their daughter is behaving in a way that can be destructive and that they are in danger of losing at least half their time with their grandchildren. They raised her to be an honest, faithful wife--let them help her be who she is. 



> I met with our therapist today. She believes that I should not give up. She said my wife is NOT ready to talk about our marriage but wants to talk logistics. Clearly my W is stressed out and wants to smooth things over for our son. I am not going to make it easy for her.


:rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: Yeah of course she wants to talk logisitics! "How can I get him to let me keep my $50k, pay my $40k of debt, and pay me to cheat on him...AND still look good in front of my son?" LOL Seriously that silly. Here is the only logistic you need to focus on: *you and your children will be staying HOME; your paycheck will go to your separate account to pay for yourself, your children, and the home; she is free to end all contact FOREVER, give you access to her email, FB, IM and online accounts and return home...or to continue the affair, continue to cover everything up, and live elsewhere on her own dime. *

See how easy that logistic is? You willingly and happily take all household bills and child care expenses. She's free--to live on her own dime.


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## turnera

It's more important that she KNOWS you told everyone, than it is for everyone to TELL her anything. It's the shame the affair brings on to her once it is exposed that can often end it.


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## finallyseewhy

Ok, here is what I did and I should say I have only started doing it....I have sort of chickened out of telling our families but I am getting there. 

For the past 11 years I have went to EXTREME lengths to preserve my H image. I have never spoke a bad word of him and if anything talked him up to anyone and everyone. I have always figured even the messed up things he had done was better to keep to myself because I honestly thought people would blame me 

Well this emotionally affair was going on for the past few months that I know of....they have been friends for awhile and worked in very close quarters and will continue too, but only recently(I am probably a full to say this because it probably was longer has taken a toll) 

To summarize he was sneaking around inviting her places and not allowing me or our children to go. Where he slipped up was when he invited our oldest child to a movie, dinner, and ice cream and told our child to NOT tell mom.....they did. This was after I found out earlier that week that he had been going out to places with her and lying. I walked in on him texting her(he has been really hiding his phone the last few months and deleting thing constanly) I grabbed the phone saw some texts that were very very friendly(on his end) and some sexual(also him) I texted her back and had a very long conversation with her. 

I knew that for my H that his work image meant a lot to him so exposed to her what was going on and to several other people he worked with. He is a manager where he works so you can take this for what it is worth. 

Until I found this forum I would of never even imagined doing this because I always figured you need to not 'air out your dirty laundry' and I have been living by this for our whole marriage but I can say it is something you have to do and the response you get is drastic and well worth it. 

I had to take CONTROL of the situation. I needed to realize that I was the only one that was not airing out our dirty laundry and he needed to be exposed. Also a another good point is that if anything ever comes from this OW/co-worker/friend or what ever the hell he wants to call it everyone will know how this 'blossomed' and that IS important. 

Like I said I am still doing this I have not spoken a word to either of our families. He is very close to mine and he even asked me to not tell them so that is where I need to go next. 

When H realized I had done this he was mad at 1st but quickly became very very ashamed. I was almost shocked to see the reaction to be honest.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I have just made a couple of calls to close friends we have. My wife had told them. No shame there. She's up and running. She did it a couple of weeks ago. Is it time to clean out the closets? I called her parents and left a message for them to call me. I bet she has spoken to them. I gotta say, my feelings seem to be on the mark. Once she told our son, she was over the biggest hurdle. Our friends are very supportive of me but are unwilling to commit to helping me.
It seems I may really be the last to know that my marriage is truly over. It doesn't look like she will turn back.
It will be a sleepless night tonight.


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## Affaircare

You know, the idea is not to "shame" her. The idea is to tell close friends and family the truth. You guys aren't "having marriage problems." She is a committing adultery and trying to legitimize it by telling her side of it. 

As an example, when you spoke with your friends, what did she tell them was going on? "Hello, this is IANTOO's W and I'm leaving him because I'm being unfaithful"? Somehow, I highly doubt that!


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## iamnottheonlyone

I just blasted out an email to family and friends. I know it was rash but if she's not hiding it I need to protect my reputation. I have no idea how many she got to before me. I'm not trying to shame her but she feels no shame as if she is openly discussing it. She is saying it is my fault for being inattentive and she thought I didn't love her. This guy is really nice and it just happened. She fell in love and can't go back. Blah, Blah... just like some of you said she would.


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## turnera

iamnottheonlyone said:


> I called her parents and left a message for them to call me. I bet she has spoken to them.


Really?

"Mom, Dad, I just wanted to tell you that I decided to go out and shag another guy. I knew you wouldn't mind. K, bye."

I doubt it.


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## finallyseewhy

I agree it is not to shame her when I did I was very calm(I was surprised I was able to do it but I was) and I just gave the facts. I didn't bad mouth him or put to much emotion into to because then it would of been just me trying to em brass him.

Keep us updated on how it turns out.


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## iamnottheonlyone

In the past 10 days I have learned alot about infidelity by these exchanges. Unfortunately it now appears I was too late for Plan A. I feel my biggest mistake in making Plan A work was that she is out of the house. If I had just waited a day or two once i found out to gain perspective, I would have know better than to ask her to leave. But I was out of my mind from the shock.
Now that "everyone " knows I am concerned how to handle are joint public appearances. I am wearing my wedding ring. Do I take it off? Do we hang together? I'm feeling on the verge of of letting anger displace my pain. I don' if I discussed this before so let me try.
I am a downhill ski racer. When standing at top of the hill waiting for my turn to go, fear creeps in. You watch the racer before crash at 50 miles an hour and get taken away in a taboggan by ski patrol. Maybe he has a broken leg, maybe a concussion. How do force the fear out? You get pumped up. You get tough...you get angry. You growl and fire out of the gate. No fear.
In my relatonship over the oast 6 months, I think I was doing the same with my wife. In my gut I cold feel something wrong. When she would avoid me I would react with negative energy or speak to her in "the tone". I learned to keep my distance. So I only made things worse for me by playing into her mood. 
Have I learned my lesson? If this relationship survives or in my next relationship will I make the same mistakes.
I was in a fog myself, not seeing the signs that were driving her towards infidelity. Could anyone have seen the signs if they were me?


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## iamnottheonlyone

Coffee. I have stopped drinking it the past three weeks. I looked back at our conversation that morning and the caffeine didn't help me think clearly.


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## turnera

You don't HAVE to agree to separation or divorce. You can drag out any legalities as long as possible, to give affairs time to die out and the fog to clear. YOU stay married. YOU wear your ring. SHE looks like an idiot. YOU tell everyone you talk to what she is doing, and how you are trying to save your marriage; any help would be appreciated. 

Lots of people do Plan A after the WS has moved out. Lots of them. You just pick each and every opportunity you cross paths to show her what she's throwing away. Part of that is for you to get a life, so she can see that you CAN move on without her (though you don't want to); the reverse psychology - seeing you enjoying life without her - can do wonders for waking her up.


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## iamnottheonlyone

As a result of my email blast last night I got alot of calls. I spent much of the day explaining as honestly as I could where we are and how we got there. I have 100% support. I met one of my wife's best friends for lunch. She told me that my wife told her 2 years ago that she was unhappy and spoke of her money issues. Her friend told her to talk with me. That communication is the key to a healthy marriage. My wife asked her why her marrigae is so strong. Her friend said they have had some very tough times but believe in marriage and want to spend their entire lives together. Her friend gave me "His Needs, Her Needs" by Harley. I had read much of his stuff that is on the web and was looking forward to getting my hands on it. She told me that when she was done I should give it to my wife.
My wife got back from London an hour ago. She texted saying she was receiving all kinds of calls and texts. She wanted to know who I told and what I said. She wanted to know if we were on the "same page". I texted back.."No more texting. I will not Text."
She called me and asked me if we were on the same page. I asked her what page is that?She asked me what I said to them. I told her I told everyone the truth. As much as they wanted to hear. I told her they all support our marriage. I told her about meeting with our friend. She said,"Well isn't that just nice. Stay away from my friends". I said, "They are our friends and I intend to keep it that way". I told her that she needs to know that I am her husband and I would die for her. She couldn't talk. The line was quiet for a minute. I apologized for my strident tone. She was sobbing. She said we would talk later. I know much of what I said did not get deposited in the Love Bank. But it certainly had an impact.

Turnera, I do like what you said in the above piece. Everyone today was very supportive and told me not to quit. I will start Harley's book after dinner.


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## Tanelornpete

> I know much of what I said did not get deposited in the Love Bank. But it certainly had an impact.


Actually, it does get deposited in the Love Bank. She won't want to hear it right now, but the fact that you defended your marriage IS a very strong Love Deposit. You are doing very well, and her response is also very encouraging. Good job.


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## turnera

Yep. Stopping the affair is the perfect first step to getting her back. Will she be mad? Undoubtedly. Expect it. Just stay calm. Say nothing except "I talk marriage. I'm fighting to save my marriage." 

Ignore everything she says if she gets mad at you for exposing. Just wait it out. Be calm. Look good. Smell good. Have your own life. REFUSE to accept cheating. 

I'm very proud of you.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Just spoke with her parents. They did not know. They were quite perplexed.


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## Affaircare

> In the past 10 days I have learned alot about infidelity by these exchanges. Unfortunately it now appears I was too late for Plan A. I feel my biggest mistake in making Plan A work was that she is out of the house.


Actually this is incorrect. It is never, ever too late to do Plan A (I call it "Carrot & Stick") because that does not mean "Plan Doormat." It means that you wake up out of your fog and work on YOU. You as a human being naturally attracted her before. You were doing actions that caused her love to blaze, and you were NOT doing actions that put out the flame. Then gradually over time those Love Extinguishers crept in and you put out the love...and over time the kindler actions slowed down. That is Plan A--becoming again the man who attracted her in the first place. Kindling her love and stopping the things that extinguished it. You can do that whether she is there or not. 



> Now that "everyone " knows I am concerned how to handle are joint public appearances. I am wearing my wedding ring. Do I take it off? Do we hang together? I'm feeling on the verge of of letting anger displace my pain.


IANTOO--let me ask you a question. If you were a human being and were hurting but you made a big mistake...how would you want your wife to handle it? You have a somewhat public life and image is somewhat important to you. You love her and she is your wife, even if she made a mistake. Yeah it's a doozy but personally--I'd say go, wear your wedding ring, let her decide if she wants to go or not, and in public treat her like the mother of your children and the woman you fell in love with. Handle her mistake like a kind, loving, forgiving gentleman. This will be positive in two ways: she'll know she can make a mistake and not be publically humiliated and you will be seen an perceived in a positive public light by those who know but have the brains to keep it discreet. Be the bigger man. Cover it up? No. Give her the grace to save face? YES!



> I don' if I discussed this before so let me try. I am a downhill ski racer. ...How do force the fear out? You get pumped up. You get tough...you get angry. You growl and fire out of the gate. No fear.
> In my relatonship over the oast 6 months, I think I was doing the same with my wife. In my gut I cold feel something wrong. When she would avoid me I would react with negative energy or speak to her in "the tone". I learned to keep my distance.


Yep--I have no doubt this is part of the trouble. She also mentioned it was your fault for "...being inattentive and she thought I didn't love her." There may be some element of Disloyal Dizziness there, but there's also a big ol' element of truth there too! I felt the same thing from my own Dear Hubby--he backed up his exW because he didn't want to argue with her but that meant he'd hurt me to save himself; I had to struggle and fight to get his attention, and finally I got tired of losing to something else. Along came someone who noticed ME! And you know how the rest goes. My point though is that she gave you a really good "hint" to what hurt her. Now you have a really good compass to what she needs too! Attention and some expression in her language that she is precious and valuable to you! We can do that and you can start with Plan A--but ending the affair is first. 



> Have I learned my lesson? If this relationship survives or in my next relationship will I make the same mistakes.


Can't tell--I'm not a fortune-teller. But I'll bet you're starting to see the light. I bet you're starting to see now the ways that you contributed to this. So from this day forward, don't be that guy. I know, we all gradually get there and get comfortable in our relationships. So you made a mistake and took her for granted--and she made a mistake and let someone else's flash of sparkly attention catch her eye. Let's get to work! End the affair--learn how to be the guy who SHOWS her you love her and teach her how to show you--and rebuild something altogether new (and better).



> I was in a fog myself, not seeing the signs that were driving her towards infidelity. Could anyone have seen the signs if they were me?


You know this is a question that agonizes most disloyals. It's something like this: "I tried and tried to tell you and now I feel like it's too little too late. Why did it take something this desparate and major for you to see it?" You know the answer, IANTOO? I don't know. I don't know why you didn't see it before and I don't know if someone could have seen the signs before. But you didn't, and we are here where we are today. NOW you see it and you have learned a LOT about infidelity and about marriage haven't you? Keep reading "His Needs/Her Needs." Keep learning all you can! The good news is that it took a bit fry pan to the head but you got it! And just so you don't feel really bad, for some reason people don't usually "get it" before the affair. They may hear "you don't talk to me anymore" and think "I don't want to just gibber on! I have nothing to yak about" and not realize that means "We used to stay up all night and tell each other everything and now we don't have that closeness anymore and I miss it." Know what I mean?



> I know much of what I said did not get deposited in the Love Bank. But it certainly had an impact.


Okay, it did get to the Love Bank and here's why. In a big, bold way you just showed your wife with ACTIONS that she's too valuable for you to just sit back and let her go. Your actions said, "I'm going to do everything I can for you to save our marriage." However, temporarily...today...she may be somewhat pissed because she will see it as if you aired her dirty laundry. Also remember an affair is kind of like a chemical addiction--the brain chemistry of love is a natural amphetamine (The Chemistry of Love). So right now she like an affair addict and you are trying to cut off her supply. She may very well react with some ... gusto shall we say? Please just overlook/ignore this (to some degree) the same way you'd ignore a friend who was addicted and you're doing an intervention to help him go cold turkey. It's for her own good, you know it and in a way so does she, but she's likely to fight it like a cat fights a bath. 

If she does agree to end the affair--she'll be in for a brief period of withdrawal, but we aren't there yet. When we get there, we'll discuss it then okay?


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## iamnottheonlyone

I'm crossing my fingers and toes. I appreciate your analysis. On point. I will keep my cool.


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## Affaircare

Being that we are Christian folks, iam, we are praying for you and for your wife too. I am not sure I'd say I'm "proud" of you but I will say "job well done" and I'm glad to hear that your friends and family at least support you. Let us know!


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## iamnottheonlyone

I have spoken with a couple more mutual friends. My wife told one of them th.at she was poor and homeless. I spoke with her sister a few minutes ago and she said my wife always had champagne tastes on a beer budget. I will try to get the love back and then work on the issues. Would you agree?


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## iamnottheonlyone

Our friends are talking with each other. I will see what kind of support developes over the next few days. My wife is away. Out of range and contact.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I spoke with several more of our friends today. I tried to be as concise as I could about the situation without discussing the specifics of the affair. I seem to be getting past that. I now have the courage to ask them to step up and commit. For those who were not aware of the "script" I went over it with them so that she can not distract them. Most were concerned about the embarassment it could cause her. I asked them to keep it about love. I also asked them to help in three areas: ask her to stop the affair, ask her to move home and ask her to continue marriage counselling not just "therapy". Several friends had other close friends going through similar problems and see this as an epidemic.
His Needs, Her Needs is great. An eye opener.


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## turnera

Yes, an excellent book.

You are doing GREAT! No matter what happens, YOU are showing exceptional fortitude and integrity. Awesome.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I talked to more friends today. Total support. A number of them want to see her face to face as soon as she comes back from Europe. One of our friends said they would go to where she is staying and wait for her to come home. (I told them that that would be a little over the top) My wife comes in on Monday night. On a good note, I hope her weekend away with her boyfriend was stressful and unpleasant.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Okay. I need some serious advise. We are coming to that second point in our relationship that I have been dreading. The Explorer comes out of the repair shop today. She will have her freedom. She won't need me for any favors. She wanted her space. She has it. She won't need to see my face.
She was in town last night. So I was wrong about her schedule. I was guessing anyway. My son's girlfriend had a pageant last night. I took some video and sent it to her phone. When she texted back a thank you that is when I learned she was here. She texted that she and her grilfriend she staying with were going to pick up the truck tomorrow, I got stressed. I texted that I wanted to talk. She called. Angry again. Even angrier when I told her the truck had to be paid for before it could come out of the shop. I am sure she is viewing this as control by me. She said she would call this morning. Lets just say that I chanted my new mantra. "No magic bullet. Give it til October." It calmed me down. Only woke up once last night in a cold sweat.
Yesterday afternoon I spoke with the first person I confided in when a needed to talk. He was my wife's friend first. I have talked to almost everyone who is close to us. He sees the exposure as an effort by me to control her. Is it? He says our mutual friends don't know both sides. He said that unless I was beating her he is supportive of me. (No domestic violence here). However, he will not suggest any course of action for her or "lecture". He was all other the map with his views. He said I have a bad negotiation position. That I should be angrier. Although he earlier suggested a dead line approach. Now he is suggesting I don't do that. I am thinking he has spoken with her. He says he does not believe any of our friends will tell her she should stop seeing this guy, go home or seek counselling. I think he is dead wrong. This is the guy who on the outside appears to have one of the most strained marriages. Maybe his view is some kind of transferance. He would like to be doing what my wife did. 
Should I be asking my friends for help or just leave them to their own devices? Should I ask them to try to convince her to stop the affair or come home or just continue counselling? She can ignore them all. I am thinking that they should just be telling her how much a love her and miss her. Could that be the best approach? Am I controlling?
My son told me last night that I don't know when to slow down and shut up. 
I am halfway through His Needs, Her needs. Boy, did I screw up. Tough to have daily contact when your wife is oversees. Tough to not get "excited" when she comes home. When she needed just a hug to nurture, my hugs were for more. After I finish the book I am having my son read it. This book will be the next wedding gift I give. I just might buy a case and give them away to my friends.
Lastly, the repair shop is owed $850 to get the truck out. My wife was surprised when I told her that. (I had the brakes done too). When I was talking about the expenses she had I wasn't thinking about one deduction from her paycheck...health insurance. It would be very expensive for me to handle that at any time. My budget has becoem very tight. I will have to pay for the ski house myself this winter to keep my close friends. I can not do with out them. 
It is going to be a tough day.


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## iamnottheonlyone

She is golfing this morning. I just texted her about counselling this week. Do you think our friends would say to her, "just do what makes you happy."? I am pretty damn sure she is hearing that from her airline friends.


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## turnera

Don't be telling your friends you 'want' them to do anything. That would be controlling. Just tell them you're trying to save your marriage and would appreciate any help _removing the other man from the equation_ so that you two can focus on the problems that started all this (this is you taking blame so you don't look like a jerk). 

I'm sure she DOES have friends telling her just do what makes you happy. You can't control that. All you can do is make sure everyone knows the truth. This exposure stage can take weeks, and you've only done a couple days.

Just sit back and relax. If it works, it works. The major benefit in exposure is not to CONTROL her by getting people to rag on her; it is to show her that everyone now knows about it, and the fantasy she's been in may not be as wonderful as she thinks. The goal is to get HER to start thinking, you know, maybe this was a mistake. And there you are, over there, being available (but not clingy), letting her know that when she's ready to drop OM, you'll be waiting - but NOT before! You will NOT accept another man in the equation. You have to show her that you have dignity and will not beg for her scraps - that kind of man...women hate.

In the meantime, YOUR job is to Plan A: do everything you know she likes about you, STOP doing anything you know she hates about you, look good, smell good, be a GREAT father and family member...show her what she may be giving up.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Now that all our mutual friends and family have been told, do I sit on hands and wait? She has been unresponsive with all of them as far as I know. Should I reach out to them all again next week to request further contact with my wife? 
I know very little about the other man. I just assumed he is divorced. But maybe not. Could that be why my wife said she had planned to wait until high school or college graduation to split with me? If he is married what reaction should I be expecting from my wife over the next couple of months if he doesn't commit? She won't leave our son. The boyfriend would have to come to her. I don't think my son would ever stay in the same house with OM.


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## turnera

No, don't contact them again. You only did it once to let everyone know the truth; not to 'get' them to do anything. Their choice. Her KNOWING they know is your biggest weapon. 

You make it clear you will NEVER leave your son. YOU will not move out. You WILL however take steps to have HER removed from YOUR house if she continues to cheat. And you will bring her OM into court as a witness. Whatever it takes to keep OM away from YOUR son. You have to be strong in this.

Just keep repeating to her, if she comes to you mad "I'm trying to save my marriage. We can't even discuss anything unless the third person is out of the picture. I'm here waiting for you, but I will NOT accept you cheating in MY house with MY son under the roof."

And if she threatens divorce, tell her you talk marriage, not divorce. If she wants to leave, she can, but YOU are not moving. Big roadblock to all her fantasy plans. Huh, how about that? You're not cooperating!

Finally, what is your marriage worth? Is it not worth $500 to hire a PI to get his contact info? Or to get proof of them cheating so you can keep your son?


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Now that all our mutual friends and family have been told, do I sit on hands and wait? She has been unresponsive with all of them as far as I know. Should I reach out to them all again next week to request further contact with my wife?
> I know very little about the other man. I just assumed he is divorced. But maybe not. Could that be why my wife said she had planned to wait until high school or college graduation to split with me? If he is married what reaction should I be expecting from my wife over the next couple of months if he doesn't commit? She won't leave our son. The boyfriend would have to come to her. I don't think my son would ever stay in the same house with OM.


IANTOO~

Think some soothing thoughts. Think about how fun the ski house is, or the way the snow falls in Vail completely silently at night. Think of the beauty of the mountains in summer. Okay feeling better? You are focusing on the affair and starting to freak a little. So take a few deep yoga breaths and relax while I tell you a few things. 

Do you remember how we told you there are seven steps you can take to end an affair? You are about in the middle of those seven steps so you still have a way to go. None of these steps *guarantee* that it will end the affair or fix the marriage, but it gives you the best chance--okay got that?

So you told friends and family, and if nothing else they now know that there is an affair, that you didn't beat her or anything and that it's not "a mutual decision" or any of the other justifying she might have used. You also know that you have many friends and family who are supporting you, and I don't mean they are "on your side" but rather they will be there for you and help you if need be. Now don't expect them to get in your business and try to tell her what to do. (I mean think about it, if one of your friends came to you and said his wife was having an affair, would you go to her and try to tell her what to do? Probably not. But if she spoke to you, you might say, "Hey I know about the other man and the affair, and I personally think you should work out your marriage rather than chase someone else." Right?) 

The folks who may say that and it would mean something to her are her parents, maybe her pastor...that kind of person. Even if she hears it and it falls on deaf ears and pisses her off, at least now she knows that some folks will not approve and will not "be happy for her now that she's found happiness" (gag!). Now she knows that she can't introduce the new guy and pretend he's legitimate (the old "we met after the separation") and she knows she can't keep her choice to be unfaithful a secret and keep that hidden. 

I do have a question about possibly two more people you may need to expose to: her employer and the OM's wife. These last two would be in the instance that those two met at work and they are using work time and resources to carry on their affair (like work expense account, work laptop, work email, etc.). Thus the employer would need to be told because they are at GREAT risk for a sexual harassment lawsuit for unwanted sexual contact (as the spouse, YOU don't want it). Also they will need to take steps to make sure their resources are secure from being used for that purpose. So that's one you may need to consider. The other is the OM's wife. Now, he may or may not be married, but what often happens is the two meet at work, they both say how bored, lonely, neglected they are at home, and VOI LA! But if you can expose to his wife, you would be amazed sometimes how quickly an affair will end when OM's W put her foot down! 

So a little detective work may be involved on your part to find out a bit more about the OM. You don't want to drive yourself crazy with this, but it would be to your advantage to learn what you can. And FYI this is not a witch hunt--this is to learn some facts, and be armed with knowledge. 

I'll add some more as I can, but for now there's your assignment. See what you can reasonably find out about the OM without becoming obsessed.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am going to contact a pilot friend of mine and ask.


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## Affaircare

Good idea--and like I said this isn't obsessive digging and focusing life only on him so you can do the macho confrontation. But finding out a little more could be beneficial. 

I'd also recommend looking at the Love Extinguisher Questionnaire today. The very best situation would be if your wife would look at it and fill it out to tell you directly the things you've done that hurt her and harmed the marriage, but right this second she may not be too willing. That being the case, do your best to look it over and answer as if you were in her shoes and try to answer like you think she might answer. This would give you a clue which areas you could begin to work on in Plan A--so it's like one way to prepare for that step. It will be the next one once you are pretty confident there's been full exposure. Okay. 

IANTOO, I know if feels like you're walking on quicksand a little, but you are doing GREAT!


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## iamnottheonlyone

What if I just ask her if he's married? Why put the friend in the middle to act like he is a spy? An investigator would be expensive and getting to airline records would be difficult if not illegal. What if I say to her, "When is OM planning to leave his wife for you?" She came by unexpectedly last night. She was pleasant, almost friendly. She called me to say so. Called me honey. (I know I reading tea leaves, I should make nothing of it.)


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## turnera

What makes you think she would tell you the TRUTH? Come on, think about it.

Either you're going to fight the affair, or you're going to go ahead and be a doormat just so she won't abandon you.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Good thing you warned me about bugging again. My mind has been trying to race since I started giving this some thought. Mostly about what to do or say if he were to be married. If I can not get n answer from my pilot friend, I may be left with the "when did you last beat your wife?" kind of lawyer question. Something simple like, "Has he left his wife?"


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## turnera

Are you talking about asking your WIFE these things? Tracking down OM? I'm confused.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am asking if you think that it would be appropriate to ask her directly. But in a way that I will get an answer. If she responds, "He's divorced, he doesn't have to tell her anything." I have my answer. If she says how would I know. Then I know he's married. Then I could consider what I am willing to do next. I have a very good friend who is a investigator. There is no reason to hire him if OM is divorced. I understand she may well lie.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Hey.. She is coming by in 15 minutes. I don't see this as an LB deposit. I will let it ride until we can chat some more.


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## Affaircare

This is just my opinion, but turnera has an excellent point. If he is married, her reply would likely be "none of your business" or "his marriage is as miserable as mine" because that is what disloyals tell themselves to justify continuing the affair. If he is not married, her reply would likely be "none of your business". I don't see how it can be profitable to ask someone of whom it can reasonably be assumed, she will NOT tell the truth.

Also just to point out how illogical this is--you are asking the addict to give you information to help take away their addiction. That will NEVER, EVER happen. They are willing to lie, cheat, and steal to keep the addiction going. So no--no need to ask her as the answers will likely be unhelpful and misleading. It's much more profitable to just ask around, inquire, do some google searching, reverse google his email address, etc.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Okay. We just met and talked. I stayed rational. She had a melt down. She is furious that I called her mother. She is getting calls and texts from everyone and answering none of them. She says I have only made things worse. I am only thinking of myself. That this is emotional blackmail. My son has become even madder at her. She says I am rewriting history. That I wasn't happy. She said I am not getting it. That we are done. She is not going to act like she loves me when she doesn't. 
She says the other man is not married. She does not want to stay married. She seems to be indicating that she has been forced to be nice to me because that is what our son wants. She said she knows I have been trying but it is just making things worse. She says she doesn't love me. There could be no way back. I stayed strong. I told her I won't give up on her. I told her I love her.
She's worried about our son. He is very angry with her.
I have to wind this back to calm. What mistakes have I made?


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## Tanelornpete

I don't see that you made any mistakes. This is pretty much exactly according to script. She's losing ground, and is doing all she can to maintain status quo. Let her be angry (can't stop it anyway) and step out of the way.

Give her space. I'd say you've pretty much completed the Exposure stage - now it's time to let her start experiencing the consequences of her actions. No, this does not mean you arrange for any 'consequences' - you simply let things happen.

You be strong, kind, loving, etc. She will ramble, say absolutely ridiculous things (she knows you are trying, which makes things...._worse_? Let her. 

Your son will also need your love, and he will need to understand that his mom does love him - that she isn't thinking correctly right now. He has a right to be angry - and he will have a huge influence over her.


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## turnera

Nope. You did fine. Your son SHOULD be mad at her! Why on earth wouldn't he?!

Just keep repeating that you're trying to save your marriage and she's welcome back any time she gives up OM, gives you all her passwords, and agrees to never spend time with other men without your acceptance. And IGNORE everything she says until she comes to you and says she accepts those terms.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Is what is happening typical? Is this still following the script. I have a hard time believing I can get this to go anywhere except in the toilet. I don't want to hurt my son. If I throw in the towel and move along it will be far easier on him because then she will be nothing to me. I can shut her down in my heart just like she did to me. I have had twenty great years. That is better than most. No heart ache for twenty years. Will people having an affair say that is is not about the other person, it is about how you treated me. Does she really mean this? This meeting would have had me in tears last. But you guys have given me strength.
Our son does not talk to me about our marriage. He told her he will have nothing to do with the other man. Should she be giving our son a break? 
In my son's eyes we had a perfect family. That vision was destroyed. She doesn't wnat to hear it. Should I tell her that? Is this the time.
One of my friends said I ought to be angry and show. But my anger only got me where I am today.
She is such a good actress. She just called a second ago. My son is in the car with her. She talked to me like I was her best friend. 
I am not confused anymore. Just directionless. 
When the lonliness hits I know I will want a companion. For the past week I have been "looking" at other women and flirting. It is labored. I haven't been this friendly in 20 years. Finding a new partner involves risking another broken heart. I am not into that..yet. I am just testing the waters to see what kind of reactions I will get.
All this hurts so bad.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Should I tell her I love her when we part? Should I still text her that before I go to bed? Or should I give her (real) space, physically and emotionally?
My son son just came home. My wife picked him up from school. He seemed very frustrated. I told him his mom is not thinking straight. I gave him a "manly" hug and told him I love him. He did not want to talk.


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## turnera

Your son will need to talk. If you can't get him to talk to you, ask him if he'd like you to find him a good counselor who deals with these things; tell him you'll never know what he says to the counselor, it's all private.

Like we said...

IGNORE HER!

Do not listen to a THING she says, until she says "I'm ready to come home, I will write OM a NO Contact letter, and you can have access to all my passwords."

Until then, DO NOT talk to her about anything other than mundane daily things you have to talk about. She needs to see that she CANNOT have her cake and eat it too. Still do Plan A - look good, smell good, _have a life_ (but that does NOT mean dating!), meet her needs if she'll let you, be a great father, stay calm, just keep repeating - if she tries to draw you in - 'I'm sorry you feel that way; I'm trying to save my marriage.' 

The script will always include her telling you all that YOU did wrong, how she'll never love you again, how you ruined everything by exposing (to which you say "all I did was tell people the truth"), how she'll never come back because you exposed...

yada yada

SCRIPT SCRIPT SCRIPT

Explain this to your son, too, so he understands it. Tell him that when someone has an affair it's like they become addicted to heroin; and it's literally a brain chemical thing, and it takes over their body and mind; all they can think about is getting their next fix. They'll be willing to walk away from their whole lives, just to get their next fix. But they CAN come back down to earth. _If the OM leaves._ If the OM leaves, she may become aware of what she did to everyone ('may' not 'will'), and come home and apologize. But none of that will happen unless the OM leaves the scene. Oh, and make sure you tell your son that it's NOT his job to do this (don't want him being irrational). You're his dad, you'll protect him and do the best you can to fix things.


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## notreadytoquit

I am in the same boat as you except I am dealing with an irrational husband in an affair. I am going back to CT in few days after 3 weeks in Canada. Husband does not say anything and neither do I. We only speak about our son. We have the next meeting with the lawyers June 3. Nothing is officially filed yet.

There are days when I feel very angry and very disappointed. God it feels like its going to take forever to lose these feelings. I am sure you go through the same stuff. I do feel better when I tell people about his affair. Don't know how much longer I should talk but at least it is the truth. 

Do you get any support from her family? I get none these days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone

Okay. So I keep my mouth shut. I do not date. (I have been told this by one of my favorite people) And this is the hardest one...I don't tell her I love her? Let me ask this. Do I quit when she moves in with the boyfriend? Do I quit when she files for divorce? If those things don't happen should I hang on? Tough first month, but I made it. I keep telling my self wait 6 months...that calms me down. Also that thing about standing on the summit in Vail and watching the snow. That put me to sleep last night.
NRTY-You seem like an incredible person. How you lasted so long is beyond me? He doesn't deserve you. But you still want him. And for us in this forum, that's all that really matters.
I couldn't keep going without your support. You all keep me strong. I made a vow and I am doing my best to keep it.


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## Affaircare

Okaaaaaaaay...you only asked about 8 gazillion questions there. Let's take them one at a time. And how about if you sip chamomile tea and try to stop spinning? (BTW I know it feels like that sorta.)



> Is what is happening typical? Is this still following the script. I have a hard time believing I can get this to go anywhere except in the toilet.


Actually this is VERY to script. If you were to tell us ahead of time what you would be saying or talking about, we probably could have warned you. However this may help you envision how this is actually helpful rather than harmful. Think of your wife as an addict--she is addicted to the affair-zing...most folks call that "chemistry" or "infatuation." She *had* a neat little fantasy in her head about her true love sweeping her away from the drudgery of her normal life with you--her soulmate who understands her perfectly and makes her giddily happy at all times--and all around her would see the golden glow and "be happy for her"--you would be a gentleman and fade to the side because you don't really care. NOW her fantasy can't happen, but in her head it's not because it was a made up fantasy--it's because you told everyone.  So anyway yes, this is all very, VERY much still following the script. 



> I don't want to hurt my son. If I throw in the towel and move along it will be far easier on him because then she will be nothing to me. I can shut her down in my heart just like she did to me. I have had twenty great years. That is better than most. No heart ache for twenty years.


I'm not exactly positive how this would *NOT* hurt your son. The fact that his father could invest 20 years building a life and a family with his mother and just walk away would probably be MORE hurtful, don't you think? In the end, his mother is acting in a way that is going to hurt him. She's choosing to do so consciously. It is one of the natural consequences of her choices. At this point, because of what she is choosing to do, I don't see that you can prevent him from being hurt. But you *CAN* be there for him and you can show him how a real man can stand up for his family, honor his commitments, and express emotions. I recommend that route--it's usually the most loving thing you can do for someone to allow them to experience their life lessons and show them how to live through them, rather than avoiding them.



> Will people having an affair say that is is not about the other person, it is about how you treated me. Does she really mean this?


Sort of yes and no. I don't know if you know this or not but there was a time when I was disloyal to Dear Hubby, and it wasn't so much that the OM was "all that." I mean often you'll see people leaving a handsome, smart, rich man for an ugly, poor, uneducated man! It's not so much that the other person is a trade-up (like you'd think) but rather that at home the Love Extinguishers where crushing out more and more and more of the love. My guess is that she probably really wanted you to stop and wanted you to be the one to love her, and as time went on things were done that finally made it such that in her mind she might just as well leave. Then usually/often OP are people who have done this "more than once" and they recognize the signs and know how to reel someone in--and shoot it's actually pretty easy. You listen like a BFF and commissurate; you do the occasional nice gesture; you flirt a little; and you agree that they deserve some happiness too! 

Soooo...were you really an evil ogre? No. No you probably did the same thing that many people do: after 20 years get a little comfortable and let some Love Extinguishers creep in while the things that Kindle Love diminished. 



> This meeting would have had me in tears last. But you guys have given me strength.


Honestly? That's what we're here for. To tell you what to pay attention to and what to ignore; to tell you the truth and decode the disloyal dizziness; to point you in the direction that feels so contradictory to instinct but will actually give you a chance to save the marriage. It's worth it ya know. 



> Our son does not talk to me about our marriage. He told her he will have nothing to do with the other man. Should she be giving our son a break?


Well of course she should. Under normal circumstances any mother would think of her son and the damage she's doing ahead of her own lust or "happiness." However for some reason disloyals don't do that. They rarely care who they hurt--and that includes their children. This is part of the reason why we suggest you think of this person as "the alien who is inhabiting your wife's body" because you know who she really is right? The real person she's been for the last 19 years? This person (in many ways) is not her. 

To get the ball rolling with you and your son, I have a suggestion. You may want to talk to him about the marriage maybe to say what YOU are experiencing--bearing in mind to keep it age-appropriate and that's his MOM you're talking about! So if you were to share, "Son, I just wanted you to know this whole marriage thing just has me sick at heart, hurt, frustrated...up and down literally by the hour. So if I don't seem like myself I'm trying but it's really got me tore up." (See how that stayed on you and how you feel?) It might help him to open up and say what HE is feeling. 

Finally, he'll have nothing to do with the other man? YAY--GOOD FOR HIM! You raised that young man RIGHT! This is one of the "natural consequences" we talked about that will hopefully pile up so your wife can see the very high cost of this affair and see that it's not real but just a fantasy. She'll be faced with having time with her son WITHOUT THE OTHER MAN...or not having her son. That could well be a linch-pin in what helps her decide to end it! So YAY! 




> In my son's eyes we had a perfect family. That vision was destroyed. She doesn't wnat to hear it. Should I tell her that? Is this the time.


No anything you tell her along this line will be thought of by her as an attempt to control her or manipulate her or something. Honestly that is between her and her son, and if that is truly how he feels, he should be the one telling her that. Under normal circumstances a mom would hear something like that from her child and melt. In this instance she is likely to snap at him, blame him, say you poisoned him, etc all because it's not supporting her affair addiction. See...it's starting to go south and get ugly and she wanted her affair to be pretty. 



> One of my friends said I ought to be angry and show. But my anger only got me where I am today.


I don't believe angry is the way to go either. Strong, confident, calm and reasonable? YES! Angry? No probably not because as you have mentioned, that cold, stony, angry side of you is what hurt her in the first place. If it were me, I'd strike a more medium stance like: "I can see now the ways that I contributed to this. I'm willing to soften my heart and work on these things whether you choose to come back or not, but I will not tolerate lying and adultery in my life or the life of my son--if you choose to be that way you are free choose to do so--and not be part of our lives. What I do know is that I love you, I know there were some things we both did wrong, and I committed to you for life. I won't just let our marriage go without trying first."



> She is such a good actress. She just called a second ago. My son is in the car with her. She talked to me like I was her best friend.
> I am not confused anymore. Just directionless.


Oh IANTOO--of course she's a good actress. She carried on her affair for forever and you may have suspected but she was acting that whole time. She's gotten used to acting and lying now. Honestly if it were me I'd just accept this is where she's at right now or maybe call her on it a little: "I know our son is in the car with you but you don't need to act in front of him."



> When the lonliness hits I know I will want a companion. For the past week I have been "looking" at other women and flirting. It is labored. I haven't been this friendly in 20 years. Finding a new partner involves risking another broken heart. I am not into that..yet. I am just testing the waters to see what kind of reactions I will get.
> All this hurts so bad.


Permission to speak freely? This is where the rubber meets the road my friend. Yes, of course you will want companionship--who doesn't?--but do you have the moral fortitude to live by example, and do for your wife what you wish she would do for you? Stay faithful? Do you have the guts and character to demonstrate to your son that a REAL MAN honors his vows even when it's hard? Do you have the qualities in your life to live in front of him the way that you want him to grow up and treat HIS wife? You know that flirting just a little that you're doing now? THAT is the kind of little kindler-type of behavior that your marriage needs to rebuild that fire. Look at HER that way...smile that smile at HER...listen to HER...laugh at her jokes. So I get it--you stretched your wings a little to see if you still "got it going on" for a little reassurance. Now you also know that the way you treat someone when you're flirting with them and the way you've treated your wife are vastly different...and they shouldn't be. What can you learn from that to do differently or better?


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thank you for your reply. I can't thank you enough for your time, effort and thoughtfulness. You are so generous. I will spend some time reading over the things you sent.
One of my good friends, who has a great marriage on the surface and is nearly as insightful as you folks, began reading His Needs, Her Needs last night on my suggestion. Maybe it will affair-proof his marriage. He gets it! It would be great to have saved a marriage before the affair rather than after.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Okay. So I keep my mouth shut. I do not date. (I have been told this by one of my favorite people) And this is the hardest one...I don't tell her I love her?


Okay here's the thing with "I love you." You don't want to say it with hopes of hearing it back, and you don't want to say it over and over because it will start to lose meaning. So on the occasion, when you feel love or when you need to say it out loud to hear it to convince yourself to follow through. 

Also it sounds like you have a little ritual out of texting "Goodnight. I love you." when you're going to bed. I personally don't see anything wrong with that. 



> Let me ask this. Do I quit when she moves in with the boyfriend? Do I quit when she files for divorce? If those things don't happen should I hang on?


You know, really only you can answer that, but I would set a time based more on "how long you can take it" rather than whether she moves in with the OM and here's why. If she moves in that might be a great time for you to go to Plan B/Consequences stage. This is the second to last step and things aren't usually looking real good if this happens, but it's still not over, fat lady ain't singing, no cigar smoking yet! 

I personally suggest that you consider "holding on" until the ink is dry from the judge's signature on the divorce decree. After that--you are literally free. Before that you are under a vow you made to her to love her until you died. Now there's no legal or moral obligation to do that. The day she committed adultery she broke the vows by every legal and moral code I know! That's why I say it's up to you--but boy how honorable it would be in front of your son for him to see his dad standing for his marriage until it was legal for him to be free...ya know?



> Tough first month, but I made it. I keep telling my self wait 6 months...that calms me down. Also that thing about standing on the summit in Vail and watching the snow. That put me to sleep last night.


Yeah! There is NOTHING like Vail in the winter, is there? The carriage ride in a soft snow around Christmas is THE BEST! And the lights during the holidays are so pretty and soothing. Hey, even riding the lift shuttles is fun in the winter  LOL Steamboat has it's charm, and Aspen and Telluride are too snooty for my taste (like Boulder only the nose is HIGHER ) but VAIL.  OOOO nothing like hot chocolate by the fire when your cheeks are stinging either! 



> I couldn't keep going without your support. You all keep me strong. I made a vow and I am doing my best to keep it.


I know you are, and I have to admit that's one thing I admire about most of the people here--they are trying to keep their vows in an AWFUL situation. Keep at it...rest if you have to. You can't always learn and grow and do something new. Some days...just be.


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## turnera

Hey, what about Keystone?!

It's the only place where you have the largest outdoor skate rink surrounded by the resort, and you can ski at night, down to the lake. Truly mesmerizing. Especially at Christmas, when they put this HUUUUUGE Christmas tree in the center of the lake. Most beautiful thing I've ever seen.

iam, if you get your marriage back, make sure you book Christmas week at Keystone just for you and her....you'll never regret it.


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## Affaircare

[threadjack]

Keystone Schmeystone! LOL :rofl: :lol: Okay for REAL fun you could try the Breckenridge Corvette Show (Vettes on the Rockies) or the Ice Sculptures around New Years  Those are fun! But nothing beats Vail. 

[/threadjack]


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am learning every second. This old dog is learnig new tricks.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Do any of you have a take on the "Lone Ranger" program? I have counselling in an hour. The therapist has been listening, but I am not getting any real feed back. I am going so my wife will go. It is still 3 to 4 weeks until marriage counselling is available. You guys have been the best therapy.


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## Affaircare

Do you mean the The Marriage Fitness Tele-Boot Camp by Mort Fertel? If so, there is a review of his program here on this site: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/self-h...ew-mort-fertels-marriage-fitness-program.html

I myself have not heard the greatest things, but the "less than good" has been stuff like "the hype is big compared to the delivery" but it is helpful. Know what I mean? In other words, it's not a bad program and for many it is very helpful--just be aware that some of the hype is exactly that.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My therapist was much more talkative today. My coffee habit was a big talking point. I stopped drinking coffee a couple days after the "epiphany". I was drinking way too much, 8 to 10 cups a day. I am sure my increased coffe consumption had an affect on my ability to have a "tolerant " conversation. I am not drinking any more.
Back to the main subject, infidelity.
One close friend suggested that my wife, at 47, is having a mid-life crisis. No doubt.
Another suggested a hormone imbalance.


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## iamnottheonlyone

The therapist suggested that I no longer text her at night saying I love her. She thinks that I need to give her more space. That will hurt. It will also give me space, which I don't want.


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## turnera

I tell you what. People want what they can't have. They ignore, have disdain for, what is right in front of them and easy to get. 

I often suggest to people wanting their wayward back that they FIND things to do by themselves, i.e. get a life. You'd be surprised how much of a difference it may make, if she sees you not needing her.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Okay. That is what I will do.
She called my son from Europe on her oversees phone a short while ago. If it is affordable I am going to insist she call him everyday. In my mind a contributing factor to the affair was the fact we did not talk every day. I assumed it would be too expensive, Ofcourse it turned out she was blowing her whole paycheck over there. She clearly could have spent a few dimes to call home.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My son told me last night that he and is mom were going to pick his tux up tonight for the prom tomorrow night. She called a few minutes ago. She asked me, "Would you like to join us? Your son would like that." Please put this in context. Last time she suggested we go to dinner together, she said she only saked me because she felt sorry for me. I am beginning to feel sorry for her. I paused a second and said no.
I am not going to call her Honey any more and I am not going to say I love you.
I am still on Plan A.
I am more and more certain she is heading for a big crash. These betrayers are immature and self centered. When "I am in love with you" fades, I doubt there will be any "But I love you" left.


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## iamnottheonlyone

This cow is not giving any free milk!


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## notreadytoquit

Your wife and my husband are definitely having a midlife crisis. We don't need a doctor to diagnose that. My husband is 42 about to turn 43 and the OW is 49. How old is the OM just out of curiosity? The husband of the OW in my case is the same age as my husband(just less $$$$).

We just drove back with my mom(9 hr drive from Canada). I emailed from the road when we were half way. He replied then when we were about 1hr away from home he called and I told him what time we were going to be home. Do you think he was home when we got here? Hell no! And he has not seen his son in 3 weeks. He showed up 1 later to play with him and now he is off to the gym or on a date who knows. 

Did not even ask us how was the trip, nothing! I am definitely having an alien at home that looks like my husband. 

Btw no free milk here either! I wonder when if the fog will ever lift in CT


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am 55 and look 45. My wife is 47 and wishes she looked 21. My son was right when he said she has started to dress like an 80s hooker. I was tempted to say she acts like one. Where did his mother go? Our friends Affaircare and Turnera must have something to say about both of our spouses pathetic behavior. Do they really think they are special? Midlife crisis with a dash of personality disorder.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I suffered a serious leg injury a few years back (Skiing) I was confined to a bed for about 6 weeks. I look back at that time and think about how unhelpful she was to me. She certainly would never make it as a nurse. Now that 5 weeks have passed and I can look a little clearer at where I stand, there may be more down sides than up sides to my marriage. I am going to keep my vows. But if she changes her mind alot of other things will have to change to make our marriage work.


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## cmf

I know the feeling. My H is still denying his affair and it has been 7 months! I don't think he will ever come out of the "fog". I have used these months to work on myself and realize now that if he were to come clean and want to come back , things could never be the way they were. Just the thought of how much work that would take is overwhelming. Also , the OW in my case is younger than me, but looks older(she's a heavy smoker) and is overweight and unattractive. Can't figure that one out.


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## Affaircare

cmf said:


> I know the feeling. My H is still denying his affair and it has been 7 months! I don't think he will ever come out of the "fog". I have used these months to work on myself and realize now that if he were to come clean and want to come back , things could never be the way they were. Just the thought of how much work that would take is overwhelming. Also , the OW in my case is younger than me, but looks older(she's a heavy smoker) and is overweight and unattractive. Can't figure that one out.


Oh I can help ya with that one--and this is answering cmf but also for IANTOO and notreadytoquit. Sometimes in that 40's-ish age a person goes through a thing that's similar to "Holy Smoke I'm not dead yet!" IANTOO...you mention you had an injury. Actually prior to my own EA, my Dear Hubby also had an illness and it felt like the brunt of everything was on my alone. I hate to admit it but during the "time of recovery" there was also a notable decrease in frequency and interest/desire (on his part) so I felt a combination of a couple things all at the same time: 

Willingness to hurt me to "protect" someone else
All the household management on me
All the financial burden on me
Lack of frequency/interest in sex
Some age-related changes (like menopause things)
Lack of admiration-being taken advantage of

Now YOUR spouses may not have felt all that exactly the same, but the idea is that all that hit as more or less the same time...or stacked up...and part of my head went, "I'm 40, not dead! I don't want to lose sex. I don't want to carry all this by myself. I don't want to be old yet. If I'm doing all this by myself I might as well BE by myself." Along came someone who was interested (in me), thought I was pretty, expressed some desire, took time to share poems and squeal with joy, and that was that. To some degree it didn't matter if he was a 500 lb. snowbeast! 

Now, dissecting my sitch can you see some similarities in yours? Maybe your spouses thought, "My god I'm going to end up taking care of someone and I'm not old yet! I'm still young and desirable!" Or maybe they thought, "I'm tired of carrying all of this by myself. Why doesn't someone give a hoot about ME?" Then along came the OP. Now, not all OP are professional scam artists. Some are just people who happened to be in the vicinity and noticed your spouse is a cool person. They took time out of their day, paid attention to your spouse, and said something POSITIVE out loud. See in my instance how the Kindlers that weren't being met were some physical commitment, some financial commitment, and some emotional commitment via appreciation? Yeah...

People like Halle Berry have spouses who cheat. I guarantee you that her exH is NOT with someone who is "prettier" than she is!!! Is Jesse James with someone hotter than Sandra Bullock? How about Jon from "Jon and Kate plus 8"--is the wistress a "trade up" from Kate? No the idea of people "trading up" to someone younger, prettier or richer is rarely the case really. It's usually someone normal or not that good looking really, who TAKES THE TIME to notice, pay attention, compliment, appreciate, and express some desire.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Did I do the right thing last night by not going to dinner with my wife and son? I did not text "I love you" last night. Smart or not smart? Should I do it occasionally?
She and my son are going to visit her parents tomorrow. Who knows how that will play out? 
How does her financial "need" play into this? As you know her handling of her paycheck and my budgeting seem to be one of the top problems in her mind. She has said a number of times that our home has never been her home (I bought the home with my sister 5 or 6 years before we married. My siter still owns it with me). However, the home has always been our child's home. Should I talk to her about doing the flower boxes again or just give that up?
She has two nickles to rub together. Do I try to take some of the pressure off her by seeing a financial counselor to work out a budget (So that I won't make the call on spending).


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## notreadytoquit

Affaircare your post makes sense even though in the first year of our childs life we had lots of challenges. Our son was born dec 08 and up until end of April 09 we did not know what was happening to him. Found out he had food allergies that caused eczema. In the mean time I am taking care of him by myself, I had to go on special diet for my son because I was still breastfeeding him. 

In the summer of 09 we finally got a handle on his eczema but I was on a special diet still. I did not find out until Oct 09 that I had a serious problem with my thyroid which could have even caused bad mood swings. H affair looks like it started Nov 09.

In the meantime up until Nov 09 he acted normally nothing that I could see out of the ordinary. And then Bam! He changed like overnight. My mistake was that I attributed his behaviour to stress at work(company being sold).

Right now I feel like I am married to a heartless monster. I just can't believe he could be so evil. Many people thought of him as the family man, role model to some. Even one of his former coworkers told me that to her kids, H was always a role model. H knows her kids since they were little.


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## cmf

I too feel like I am married to a heartless monster. My H is fighting me to have our children sleep in the home he shares with his mistress- despite clearly hearing from the therapist how much damage it has brought our children. He is only focused on this in our mediation. He continues to not give me any support and could care less that I am having trouble paying the bills and mortgage. He told the lawyers I am trying to "control " his life and dictate the people he can live with and be around. All I asked was that he not have other women or inappropriate people around our children when he has them for visitation. He continues to lie about having an affair- calls her his "roommate". Sorry for the vent.....I had a meeting with him yesterday. Notready toquit- my husband also portrays the "perfect father" in public. He is the coach of the t-ball team that everyone loves and praises. He did slip up 2 days ago and yell at our 9 yearold son for getting an out and then jerked him across the field, causing my son to burst into tears. Several people commented on it in the stands. Maybe he is cracking finally.


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## iamnottheonlyone

At one point these people treated us as the most important people in their lives. I would not want to say that we mistreated them, but we did. And they us. Now they have the leverage. Instead of openess and honesty we get deception and maniplulation. Maybe because they know we love them they are getting their payback knowing we will take it and suffer. A bit evil.


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## notreadytoquit

Or maybe they have the Jekyll and Hyde syndrome? I actually found quite a few articles (in my case) on male menopause, midlife crisis, infidelity and this syndrome. I am not an expert but maybe some could comment on that too. In many of these articles I can recognize the alien in my house.


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## Affaircare

HOLD ON! Stop! Whoa!









I understand that your spouses are not exactly treating you with love, respect and affection right now, but it's not cool to let this thread degrade into a "spouse knocking thread" nor is it profitable to all three of you to be dwelling on these negatives. Am I suggesting you "pretend they aren't happening"? No. I'm suggesting that you remember that this person who is before you now is not the man or woman you KNEW deeply, met and loved. This person is a disloyal spouse who is filled with disloyal dizziness and fog. And remember how often you've thought "WHO IS THIS PERSON?" because it's so unlike them and their character. 

Yeah...in a weird way it's not them. 

The person in your spouse's skin right now is an addict (addicted to the affair zing) and an alien. We kid about that, but it really does seem like an alien has take over their body and they are getting "directions" from the mother ship! :lol: 

So don't look at these people, who are hurting you SO MUCH, and think they are your spouse...in their right mind. Seriously--think of an evil twin from an alternate universe because in a strange way it is somewhat like that. There is your normal spouse, whom you know and love, and there is this evil Spock with the goatee who is self-centered, immature, and hurts everyone TREMENDOUSLY. 

Now--everyone...give me five things you love about your REAL spouse.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am sure you knew once we stabalized we would be doing this. Did she really think I would not cry in front of my son when he told me that she told him about the affair? This alien is from what planet? ...V... I am feeling very Mars like today.
Do I really have to come up with 5? You are pushing it! (lol)
Intelligent, pretty, athletic, charming, gregarious. Not prioritized.
She is coming over now. The junior prom is tonight. We are going over his girlfirend's house around 5. When people didn't know what was going on it didn't worry me about presenting a public face.


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## Affaircare

IANTOO~ 

In real life, alien takeover or no, you love the woman right? Not the evil twin so much...but the woman you KNOW and have KNOWN for 20 years? Yeah out in public, don't see the evil twin







...see your WIFE







. Look past the fog and the addict behavior and *see* the second in command who has stood by you through thick and thin--monsters and weird blue women and even six or seven bad movies. The wife who "has been and always will be your friend" but is temporarily taken over by an alien influence. Okay? SEE your wife. 



Have fun dressing up!


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## notreadytoquit

Affaircare how often does the fog lift up after a divorce? Any weather statistcs on that? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

LOL notready

Often the fog lifts when the affair ends. Generally they accompany each other - the fog is part of the affair....

However - an affair ends when a divorce occurs. The fog may not lift for some time after that - not until reality sets in, and all of the sudden the new partner begins to have flaws, irritating habits, etc....


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife, my son and I went over to the girlfriend's house in one car. My wife sat in the backseat. We all acted normal. About an hour into being there my pilot friend called. He said he doesn't know who the pilot is who is seeing my wife but thought it curious that I hoped he was an honorable man. He said he can't be honorable if he has a relationship with a married woman. He is extremely supportive. Boy, do we have some great friends.
So on the ride home I made small talk. We have never had trouble just talking. When she got out of the car at home she leaned towards me like she expected a kiss. I did not reciprocate. I said good night and that is all I said. Did I do the right thing?


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## turnera

Well, Plan A says you should be meeting ALL her needs, being everything she wants, while you try to end the affair. But the amateur psychologist in me says that not reciprocating once in a while IS a good thing, because it shows her that you may not always be available, or WANT to be available. We want what we can't have.


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## iamnottheonlyone

The problem with Plan A for me is: nothing that I am giving she wants... at least on the surface. She wants the financial support. Pay for dinner. Fill the gas tank. Pay for the prom night limo. I can give that without emotional attachment. I am giving her attention. She does not want affection from me. I will not force it. It has been counterproductive so far.


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## Tanelornpete

> The problem with Plan A for me is: nothing that I am giving she wants... at least on the surface. She wants the financial support. Pay for dinner. Fill the gas tank. Pay for the prom night limo. I can give that without emotional attachment. I am giving her attention. She does not want affection from me. I will not force it. It has been counterproductive so far.


It depends on what you mean by counterproductive, and that depends on what you intend by using it. The idea of a Plan A is to make sure you are providing only emotional needs, and avoiding love busters. This should result in two things: 1) it builds positive habits in you (and gets rid of negative) and 2) it leaves a lasting impression in the mind of your spouse of what they are choosing to leave, should they continue the affair.

Hence, it cannot be counterproductive, as long as you follow it. That is, unless you consider things like your own honor, honesty, kindness and reliability (etc.) to be useless habits that you intend to dump someday.

If you are counting on Plan A to attract your Wandering Spouse away from the affair, you are playing a 50/50 game - perhaps even lower odds. Once in a while a Wandering Spouse may 'see the light' but not often.

More often, it's a combination of all the steps you take that slowly break through the fog. And sometimes you need to move on to Plan B. 

For the most part, she DOES want the things you are providing - she most likely does not want them from YOU. And that's why it is important to keep it up: over time, the Other Guy looks weaker and weaker - and you look stronger and stronger.

So, if you are looking for instant gratification, then you are right - this is counterproductive. Your OWN affair would be more gratuitous (that''s a main reason people choose infidelity, right?) Doing the right thing means doing something over time, in a deliberate way, rather than giving in to whatever urge happens 'right now.'


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife still has not spoken to any of her non-work friends. Some are trying everyday to speak with her. I know she has recieved the messages. She will be seeing her mom tonight. 
This was day two of not saying I love you and not kissing her when she left. I knew it would be hard to do. After 20 years it just hurts so bad. Otherwise I was charming and supportive. I walked away before she got in the car. I fired the "exposure" torpedo.. and it was a big one... it hit the target, but didn't sink the "ship of lust". All I can do is wait for the "secondary explosions".
I still find this so hard to believe this happened to me/us. Never in my wildest dreams did I think this would happen.
I went clothes shopping for myself. Seeing that she had bought a drawer full of thongs, the least I could do is buy myself a half dozen stylish briefs.. no tightie-whities. I also bought a couple flashy ties. (And cried in a corner of the store.) I went and worked out. I will have a ****tail tonight. That's two alcoholic beverages in 5 weeks. I am feeling well enough that I don't see the drink as a crutch. Just a drink.
Dreaming of Vail to put myself to sleep is working better than I thought it would. I close eyes and see myself standing at the summit on a bluebird day. Blue skies and virgin white powder. I stretch. I clamp down my boot buckles. Take a big deep gulp of frozen Colorado O2 and jump off the lip. Drifting serpentine through powder as it splashes in my face, so dry it doesn't stick to my goggles, I am free. I cut behind another skier coming across the vasr bowl and I "figure 8" her tracks. Sleep is not far away.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Interesting.... How is it that our friend's wives did not see a problem with our relationship and their husband's did? I got this from two of them. Do the men just have a sixth sense?


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## iamnottheonlyone

One of my friends told me he had seen a problem for years. He is a divorced gentleman. I got ot figure she was looking around and I didn't see it. He said we would be in the same room but not be together. I didn't see my behavior as any different than anyone of the other married couples we hung with. Blind, blind, blind.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Reading tea leaves. Being strong. Being pateint. My wife just came by to drop off my son and his girlfriend. I was prepared to not see her as she might just drop them off and keep driving. She came in (to use the bathroom) She touched my arm! First touch by her in 5 weeks. I kissed on the cheek. I kind of rushed her out of the house. Not intentionally, but I was having trouble figuring out in my head how to appear casual.
Five weeks ago we spoke to each other the most honestly we had in years. Holding each others gaze for minutes at a time. Now I am reduced to putting on a false front. I keep telling myself: No magic bullet. Patience, patience.


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## turnera

What false front are you talking about?


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> One of my friends told me he had seen a problem for years. He is a divorced gentleman. I got ot figure she was looking around and I didn't see it. He said we would be in the same room but not be together. I didn't see my behavior as any different than anyone of the other married couples we hung with. Blind, blind, blind.


Just so you know, IANTOO, people rarely if ever learn about love kindlers and love extinguishers and how to have a truly intimate marriage until some sort of incident shakes things up. I don't think you were any more blind than most people. And now that you've been through it, you'll be able to see it too in your friends' marriages or in your son's relationships because now you know. Before all this happened you just didn't know--now you do.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Reading tea leaves. Being strong. Being pateint. My wife just came by to drop off my son and his girlfriend. I was prepared to not see her as she might just drop them off and keep driving. She came on (to use the bathroom) She touched my arm! First touch by her in 5 weeks. I kissed on the cheek. I kind of rushed her out of the house. Not intentionally, but I was having trouble figuring out in my head how to appear casual.
> Five weeks ago we spoke to each other the most honestly we had in years. Holding each others gaze for minutes at a time. Now I am reduced to putting on a false front. I keep telling myself: No magic bullet. Patience, patience.


I'm kind of with turnera on this one--what false front? Why appear casual? I'm not following what you're doing here. 

Just for clarity let me talk about Plan A. First, I'll be honest--I prefer to call it "The Carrot and the Stick" because it is a little easier to grasp the concept I think. 

For your wife, the affair has a certain pay-off. She is getting some needs met that previously she was not having met by you. One of the most common errors people make, though, is that they think: "Oh if I start to do the kindlers again (meet needs) they'll notice or want to come back!" Nope--RARELY! What was the real killer in the marriage probably was not so much the lack of kindlers (although that didn't help)--it was probably the LOVE EXTINGUISHERS! Things like being fault-finder, or not being personally transparent, or treating her with disrespectful judgments, no tender touches, no time to sit and listen to each other and let her talk like you're interested...those are the things that dump water on the fire of love. But what do people do? "Oh I am going to continue to dump water on the fire but ... hey my spouse doesn't want any of my kindling!" 

So Plan A is not so much about sending flowers to your wife or taking her out to dinner and dancing again. She probably doesn't want those things from you because she is sick to DEATH of those love extinguishers! So this is why I prefer calling it "Carrot and Stick." The Carrot is that you take the time to focus on you and admit to yourself the actions you did to kill your spouse's love...and you work hard to eliminate THOSE behaviors. Did you never take time to really listen? Okay, listen now even if what she says is vitriol. Some of it...a very little piece...will have a ring of truth and give you clues about what you did to hurt her deeply. That's the main big thing you have to work on. So the Carrot is the part where you allow her to see that you CAN change the things that hurt her and sort of tempt her back with showing her how you can be the man you have the potential to be. You just got comfortable and forgot to be him. You also use the Carrot to let her see the needs and kindlers you can/could meet such as Emotional Commitment to her, Financial Commitment to her, Family Commitment to her, etc. See how that would tempt her? 

The flip side of that same plan is the Stick. The Stick is the part where you are not Mr. Doormat. You love her and will do all you can to help her come back, including admit where you went wrong, but you will not let her destroy your self-worth. You have some dignity and expect her to treat you with respect and honor her vow to be faithful to only you--and you'll take nothing less. So if she chooses to move out for the OM, she is an adult and free to do so, but she also experiences the consequences of that choice. So when she whines about not having a car, she has a salary and is free to purchase her own automobile but you aren't buying her one. If she uses the cell phone for the affair and you're paying the cell bill--you remove phone and allow HER to pay for the affair. Yes a lot of this is financial but you can go Stick emotionally too. I told discarded to tell her hubby: "Are you ready to devote all of your affection and loyalty to only me and be faithful to me? No? Okay call me when you are! Bye!" The idea is that you can't control her, but you also are not responsible to support her adultery. 

So the Carrot = let her see that you can change and can meet her needs--tempt her with your actions; the Stick = allow her to experience the consequences of her choices (and some of them will hurt her...let them). This is not be vindictive or mean; it is giving her the chance to grow and allowing her as an adult to take personal responsibility. 



Sooooooooooo...having said all that, can you see how being casual and putting up a false front doesn't fit either the Carrot or the Stick. What WOULD fit would be to say, "I enjoyed that touch very much, thank you." Or "It is good to be touched by you again--I liked it." That is both true and indicates to her that she is still "of interest" to you.


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## iamnottheonlyone

False front. I think I am appearing confident, relaxed and easy going. None of these things am I feeling. After she left I was thinking how I should be thinking in order to win my woman back. should be thinking the same way I was when I met her. She didn't know me. She may have had a boyfriend. I didn't care, because I was confident I could make her mine. I will start all over again. So what if she has a boyfriend? She's a hottie. I need to drag out those long dormant skills. I am not dead yet.


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## turnera

Warning: I am NOT telling you to go out and flirt up a storm.

That said, I want to remind you that:

We want what we can't have, and we have disdain for what is thrust right under our noses and is easily and freely available.

That is why needy husbands drive their wives away. Why would we want this man? He obviously has so little self esteem, likes himself so little, that he is DESPERATE to keep us around at any cost. YUK!

That is why part of what I advise for you is to get a life.

Stop and figure out what things you like to do - that have nothing to do with her. Have you been doing them? Why not? Did you give up Saturday morning basketball pickup games for her? Find a group and join it. Did you stop reading because she got bored when you read? Start reading again. Did you give up line dancing because she's a rock and roller? Find a country club teaching classes and sign up!

YOU will look more valuable - and she will want you more, if you love yourself, and love what your life is.


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## Blue Moon

OK I read through this thread. I'm not trying to be mean, but seriously...get a backbone! Are you really that afraid to call it quits that you're content sharing YOUR wife with another man? And if you wait out her affair and end up being the "last man standing," what did you really gain? Your mind is so twisted right now that you're overintellectualizing the situation and blaming yourself because she can't keep herself from screwing some other guy.

Were either of you perfect in the marriage? Of course not. But a good spouse will work on problems without stepping outside of the marriage (without remorse at that). Do you really want to be with someone who doesn't and won't put you first? She flat out told you she doesn't love you, doesn't want to be with you and isn't going to stop seeing the other man. There's nothing else to talk about.

If you get back together with her there will be no trust anyway. Whether your wife will sleep with another man should never be on the list of things you worry about when you go to sleep at night. I understand you guys had years of happiness together but the sad truth is all of it is over. It's not even like this was a one-time indiscretion (which is horrible enough in itself). She doesn't care about you and if any love is still there it's not the romantic type.

She's not going to have any type of romantic or sexual attraction to a guy whose response to being cuckolded by another man is to grovel and "fix himself" to get her back. I don't care if we're talking about friendship, romance or professional relationships, you deserve RESPECT first and foremost, and that's something she doesn't have for you.


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## turnera

So...bluemoon, I gather you're telling him to dump her?


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## Blue Moon

Lol... yes, to make a long story short.


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## notreadytoquit

I was just thinking about the same things today regarding my husband. He cheats, no appology, no remorse. But still since D Day(Mar 23) I gave him more than one opportunity to come clean. And he did not. If he did I would have been willing to work on our marriage if he felt the same way. Do I look needy by doing this? Should I go and file for divorce first?

Today is Sun Memorial weekend. He left this am at 8am. My mom was up with our son. I was still sleeping. He did not even say where he was going or what time he would be back. Its now 6PM and he has not even called to ask how our son is doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blue Moon

It just sounds like at a certain point you have to put your brain over your heart. Staying with someone who treats you this way is no better than a woman who stays with a man who beats her and this situation actually draws a lot of similarities. Blaming yourself, swearing your S/O still loves you, etc. It sounds noble to go all out to make changes and work on things but at the end of the day all you're doing is trying to stay with someone who is abusing you without a second thought.


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## iamnottheonlyone

If the only need I served was financial or emotional wouldn't I want to continue that service so that I could nurse the other needs? So while we are talking about bills I listen intently to her position and we have a discussion that blends business and pleasure. Kind of like how most affairs get started: people woking together enjoying each others company.


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## turnera

iamnottheonlyone said:


> If the only need I served was financial or emotional wouldn't I want to continue that service so that I could nurse the other needs? So while we are talking about bills I listen intently to her position and we have a discussion that blends business and pleasure. Kind of like how most affairs get started: people woking together enjoying each others company.


 Huh?


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## Blue Moon

iamnottheonlyone said:


> If the only need I served was financial or emotional wouldn't I want to continue that service so that I could nurse the other needs? So while we are talking about bills I listen intently to her position and we have a discussion that blends business and pleasure. Kind of like how most affairs get started: people woking together enjoying each others company.


But while you're paying your wife for her attention she's letting her hair down and being herself with someone else. You shouldn't have to have a professional relationship that feels like the beginning of an affair with a woman that is supposed to be yours anyway.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Right now she needs nothing from me but childcare. Serving that need gets me contact. During those meetings I can work on attention and affection, even if it is only for a short time. I like the carrot more than the stick. I see my son and his girlfriend get testy in their 11th month of the relationship. They love each other. But I don't know how much longer they will last if they keep bickering. I have given him a head's up.


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## kenmoore14217

Ever get the felling you may have bet on the wrong pony?


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## iamnottheonlyone

Don't you know it! It felt great to be so trusting. To be so confident in my marriage. I am most concerned now that the scraps I'm getting are just that..because she feels sorry for me. I am feeling more and more heartbreak for her situation. Our friends feel sorry for her. She is not happy even if ahe says it. Someone on another thread said they always affair down. Interesting perspective. I really don't care if it is an up or a down. Question for me is how long can I hold on? I am not spending every minute thinking of her any more. (at least today).
If there is another pony to bet on, I wonder what kind of commitment I could give her?


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## HopeinHouston

I'm so sorry for what you are going through, I know it must be/is so hard. My situation was somewhat similar to yours. My wife and I did not separate, but she did let me know that the OM made her feel "like I never had", that she "loved me but wasn't in love with me", that "she loved him sooo much", etc, etc. 

She wouldn't break contact with him at first, though the sex did stop. She told me she had broken contact, but I later found out she had just hidden it better in areas that I couldn't check up on her. 

You asked for some advice or comments from me and my experience. As far as what method I took to restore my marriage, as soon as I learned about the affair, the mistakes and hurts I had caused became so clear to me, I knew right away where I had gone wrong. I basically used the carrot/stick approach that Affaircare spoke of on the previous page. 

I did loving things - sent flowers, wrote poems, took her to dinner. But more importantly I began changing things in my life, turning my own actions around, and getting rid of those hurtful areas. I let her know vocally and regularly that i understood where I had been wrong and done wrong and that I had changed and wanted to prove it to her. 

It wasn't something she accepted or believed over night. It took time of her seeing it wasn't just a temporary thing. I also began kindling common interests. We took up dancing together, and that has been a great connection for us. At first it was hard to get her to go; now it's hard to get her to let us miss a week, we go all of the time. 

I also though showed that I wasn't going to be walked on, began taking steps to stand on my own without her in some ways. (The stick). 

Luckily these things brought her around to being willing to try counselling. We had a few phone sessions with a counsellor who was recomended to us. This led to us going for a week long get-away of counselling with this lady in Florida. It was there that my marriage was really saved. We both had incredible breakthroughs there. Shortly after returning from that she finally truly broke contact with the OM, and now a little over 4 months after I found out, and 2 months after Florida we are truly doing wonderfully. We are better than we have been in years.

One of the truths about love is that emotions should not or don't really drive actions. Actions drive emotions in true love. Love is a choice. True, lasting love begins with a commitment and a choice and those actions we perform drive emotions. 

Well when we returned from Florida we were healing and getting better. My wife was re-engaged and commited to making our marriage work, but at that point she was still at the "actions" stage. She was doing the works of love, but not feeling the emotions of it towards me. 

I was fine with that, as it was a valid and welcomed starting point. Now though, for the last few weeks, she is telling me regularly, "I love you sooo much." "No, you don't understand, I REALLY love you Todd ..." Things of that nature. The emotions are following the actions. And it's great to have my wife back, and to be in such a great place. 

Is there hope? Yes there is hope. There is a chance. Not all marriages can survive this. But it can be done. I can't promise you results. But I can tell you that it can be done. Don't let yourself be a door mat. Don't be a puppy dog begging her to return, as that doesn't work either. But do the actions of love. Change the things in you that need changing. Vocalize that you are sorry for the hurts and neglect you caused/allowed. That you know the mistakes you made. Truly change, and show her that you have. Realize that it may take time. At the same time strengthen yourself and learn to stand on your own. And pray for the best. I hope your situation works out.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thank you.


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## Affaircare

You know what IANTOO? I actually was thinking about you and your wife and this thread this weekend, trying to puzzle through something. I agree with a few things BlueMoon said but disagree with the bigger majority of what he/she says (obviously)--but I had a hard time putting my finger on exactly WHAT and WHY. So I thought about it....

It took me a while to figure it out, because overall I do agree that as a man with dignity and some self-worth you want to be with someone who wants you and will treat you well. Thus Blue is right--you won't settle for "crumbs" or participate in paying for the affair, for example. So yeah that part was good. But overall the feeling I got from Blue's posts were "Good god man, get rid of her. She doesn't want you anyway so you're wasting your time doing all this PLAN stuff..." 

I figured it out. 

In a marriage there is a balance between giving and taking. Obviously a person can not "give" all the time, and if they "take" all the time we think of them as being selfish, right? The trick is finding that balance. And part of what we are suggesting you to is to take yourself out of YOUR shoes for a bit and try to see things from your wife's point of view. We aren't saying her view isn't entire selfish right now--shoot it probably is!--but instead of doing the typical cold shoulder, shut her out, have pride, and be cold--that you let your heart be warm toward her and remember who she is to you. If your son went on a tangent/bender/binge and treated you poorly and screamed at you for not loving his hooker girlfriend/baby-momma....would you do the cold shoulder-pride thing? Or would he still be your son whom you dearly love and to whom you need to show some tough love but still love nonetheless? No I don't think it's wise to allow an otherwise addicted-type person to treat you like a doormat and run all over you, but tough love isn't about "Hey I deserve better!"  That's the kind of thinking that started the affair in the first place! Tough love is morese about "I want what's best for you and your life, and I love you enough to let you experience the natural consequences of what you choose" and it has to do with loving someone else, not focusing on yourself and what you deserve. Make sense?

Another thing that I think is a really, REALLY common mistake--and one that applies to the things in Blue's comments that I disagree with--is taking what the disloyal spouse says as if it were true.  Now follow me for a second. When a person is being themselves and they are in a marriage for a long while, living in a way that's dedicated to their spouse...and they say "I love you" or "I am not happy" ... they mean it, it is consistent with their character known over some extended time, and it carries the weight of their past patterns and meanings and behavior. When a disloyal person says "I love you" to the OP or "I have not been happy for a long time" to their spouse, it does not carry the same or similar weight--and here's why. For one, it is inconsistent with their true character which is known over time. How often do you hear someone who's spouse is disloyal say, "It is like they are NOT THEMSELVES! How can he/she act like that? That's not him/her at all!" Well that because when a person is addicted to something they honestly are not themselves. They are speaking through the filter of their addiction and it really does seem like/feel like they have been taken over by aliens or invasion of the body snatchers or something.  For another thing, it doesn't follow their past patterns. They say "I love you" to the OP but they don't know that the OP had hugely long toenails or has 4 maxed out credit cards or farts in his sleep. How can they "love him/her"? They don't--they love the illusion they have! They say "I was never happy" but when you think back, they were laughing at the lake, smiling during the holidays, kissing and loving on Valentines' Days.... so maybe there were parts of the relationship that were unfulfilling or not perfect but you know FOR A FACT there were times they were happy! 

What I'm trying to say is that when a disloyal person is themselves and in their character, they say "I love you" it has deep meaning--they KNOW you intimately (warts and all) and still say it and mean it. When they say the same syllables to the OP, they don't carry the same weight because those syllables are not grounded in reality and intimate knowledge and memories and experiences together--they are grounded in fantasy/illusion and have no basis in reality other than that addicted "love zing"

Thus...IANTOO, she may very well say to you, "I don't love you anymore!" and what that means is not that she doesn't love you--it means she wants to continue her affair. When she says "I love him" that doesn't mean she's had a lifetime of intimate sharing and knowing with him--it means he makes her stomach have butterflies and she hasn't felt that in a while. 

Does that make sense? People get so stuck on "But she said she loves him!" and "Does she love me or him?" and "If she comes back is she just picking me as second choice?" when in reality yes...those syllables came out of her mouth, but they do not carry the weight of a lifetime together. They don't have the basis in reality that her life WITH YOU has or the intimate knowledge of you, your character, your patterns, your good side and your bad.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Affaircare,
You had a lot of good things to say there. So I felt my gut. I really thought this was all about the debt my wife had on her credit cards.
So I called her to see if we could work out a solution. OH BOY. She said she is done with me. It was the credit card issue that pushed her over the top. She is very angry with me. Not only about that but about talking to her parents. She said there is absolutely nothing I can do now. She will always love me but she hasn't been in love with me for years. So the slate is clean in her mind. I told her I am not quitting and will do what I need to do to show her I can be better than the man she married. And I do mean that. I have learned an awful lot. She was particularly ticked off because I told her parents about her spending habits. I stayed calm and rational. She stayed firm...your "wasting your breath". In my gut the boyfriend is only a small part of this. I was stuck in a catch 22 on the financial stuff. She said she didn't want to be mean...but she is done. As I told you before, she can just make stuff up in her head and believe it. She said I told her to handle this on her own. So that is what she is doing. I told her how I always needed her. She made me angry with all this financial stuff. I asked her to forgive me. I said she would have not done what I did if she were wearing my shoes. She said she would have just resigned herself to letting me go. So Plan A with a big carrot did not work. I am going to end up in a Plan B type situation. It is pretty clear now that Plan As are better reserved for couples who remain together during the affair. I don't think I regret the exposure as now our friend and family know the situation. We would probably still be where we are. I will be the nice guy single parent. I will just wait for her to file and then be ready to move on. There is just about nothing else I can do to alienate her more. She said she would probably see the therapist again to deal with the anger. I asked her if she would go to marriage counselling when it beecomes available. She said she would do the individual counselling. Five weeks and no progress. The real question is: Did exposing her affair work against me?
We will talk tomorrow about scheduling issues. What do you think? 
By the way, emotionally and mentally the day has not been too bad.
I am adjusting. I will see the therapist tomorrow.


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## iamnottheonlyone

When she says I am not getting it. That it is over. And she still says, I will always love you, but I have not been in love with you for 4 years. Is it time for me to throw in the towel?


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> When she says I am not getting it. That it is over. And she still says, . Is it time for me to throw in the towel?


Did you read what I wrote up above or just let your eyeballs skim the letters? When a disloyal says things, she is an ADDICT talking and you are trying to take away her drug. She speaks out of dizziness. Here, let me translate for you:


SHE SAYS: "You are not getting it. It is over."
SHE MEANS: "You didn't let me keep my drug habit a secret from everyone! I'm mad!"

SHE SAYS: "I will always love you, but I have not been in love with you for 4 years."
SHE MEANS: "I know having an affair is wrong, but I can justify it if I say I've been unhappy for forever!"

SHE SAYS: "I am done with you. It was the credit card issue that pushed me over the top."
SHE MEANS: "You didn't let me spend all your money any way I wanted to, on myself! I'm mad!"

SHE SAYS: "I am very angry with you..not only about the credit cards but about talking to her parents"
SHE MEANS: "You told my mom and dad that I was having sex outside the marriage and now I can't explain it away and continue like it was a romantic secret...and blame you!"

SHE SAYS: "There is absolutely nothing you can do now."
SHE MEANS: "I'm too stubborn and prideful to live off my own paycheck or admit my adultery is wrong and was part of what contributed to this marriage falling apart. I'd rather blame you than take personal responsibility for my issues."

SHE SAYS: "You're wasting your breath"
SHE MEANS: "Stop saying out loud all the things I'm trying to keep secret!"

SHE SAYS: "...the boyfriend is only a small part of this."
SHE MEANS: "I will invent other reasons why I was unhappy before the boyfriend so I can try to legitimize the affair and justify it."

SHE SAYS: "...she would have just resigned herself to letting me go." 
SHE MEANS: "...if I tell him this maybe he'll just stop making it hard and let me have my affair!" 

Now after I interpret it for you, does it make more sense? She is a drug addict. The affair is her drug. You are trying to take away her drug so she will say and do *anything* to keep her supply, including lying to, cheating, stealing from, and hurting those she loves. When you see it through the addict eyes, you'll see what I mean about "weight". Yes, at this moment she may think she means these things. She may be mad as a wet hen with you. But IANTOO, your marriage can survive anger. It can NOT survive and affair. For your marriage to have any chance you need to do what you can do to end the affair. 

I will say that I have known spouses who are too prideful or stubborn to admit their issues or admit they were wrong, and almost to every one of them leaves their spouse for the OP and within a few short month their life is literally awful--the affair ends because it can not take the light of day and having to compare the fantasy to reality. So yep there is no guarantee that doing these steps will save your marriage. For a marriage to be saved, BOTH parties have to humbly admit they made mistakes and BOTH have to be willing to do the work to save it. Even if she doesn't though, you will come out having done all you could to honor your commitment, you will have taken the high road, you will have learned what mistakes you made and be a better man for it, and you will have learned how to build a loving, intimate marriage. 

Which reminds me, by the way...have you taken the love kindler and love extinguisher questionnaires yet? What extinguisher do you recognize that you did? How are you working to eliminate that?


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## iamnottheonlyone

If she had said these things to me 3 weeks ago I would have crumbled. I did not crumble. I held my own and stayed on point. You are absolutely right. I won't sleep any worse tonight than I did last night. I have done the Kindlers and extinguishers a couple of times. Lack of affection would have to be the most likely extinguisher. (I don't have them in front of me.) I am working on patience in all aspects of my life. I wrote "be patient" on stickies and put them around the house. 
I liked the part about my wife feeing the butterflies. All our best friends understand mature love. The "in love with you" ended a few years after marriage, while the "I love you" got stronger. Life partners watching each others backs. Now I am guilty of being too loyal and trusting. I love her.
When I saw the burns on her knees 6 months ago, I didn't know what they were. With great concern I said, "Honey, what happened to your Knees?" She replied, "The sheets were very course at the hotel." And I, being the trusting soul, took it hook, line and sinker. I knew what it was but my trust was so complete. I was blind!!! Right then and there I could have started on our way back. IDIOT!


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## iamnottheonlyone

Affaircare and HopeinHouston,
I want to thank you for your lengthy replies. You guys are incredible and thoughtful. Thanks.


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## Affaircare

Okay a couple of brief things. 

1) Lack of affection is not really a Love Extinguisher. That may well be a Love Kindler that you gradually stopped doing--along with taking the time to give her your full attention, look in her eyes, and actively listen to her as she talks (whether it's a silly topic like her day or a serious topic like "we have to talk.."). If you try to give her affection now it will be about as effective as carrying water in a holey colander...it just runs on out! In order to be able to pour "affection" into her you'd have to plug the holes first, and those holes are the Love Extinguishers

2) I'm going out on a limb here, and I'm saying this as constructive criticism not being critical--okay? If I were to guess based on what I know of you and what you've written here and HOW you write I would guess that possibly these were some of the things that extinguished love in your marriage: 

*scorekeeping*--the attitude of if you give some, you should get some back...and honestly I sense a bit of this but not a lot. 
*faultfinding*--this may be a biggie; the attitude of this and this and this is wrong, and that is not up to snuff, and this was a mistake, and that is your fault. The burden of being with someone who points out your every fault and mistake is CRUSHING. 
*hints of controlling a littl*e--again this may not be a big issue but she may feel like she's a dog on your leash, and the fact is that as a grown woman she can (and will) do as she pleases. I just don't think she's figured out that with the freedom comes responsibility for her choices! 
*will not forgive*--if she made a mistake or spent too much or ... whatever, did you forgive her or kind of hold it over her head forever, never taking away that sword over her head? Did she feel like you could let go of things she'd done?
*disrespectful judgments*--this one is a possibility that stood out the most to me; it's the attitude that her opinion, ideas, preferences, etc. aren't just as valid and valuable as yours are...and that you would try to make her even think and feel by your values. It's a little hard to pinpoint this one, but it's expressing a ridicule that wounds. 
*not making personal adult time*--it's a shame but I suspect this is in there and it's an easily cured one; shoot schedule it if you have to and then get into the habit!
*inequitable division of household chores*--I can't tell if you did all the chores and she got that entitled feeling or the other way around (you wanted her to do the chores and she "threw off her shackles") but either way it's not healthy for one to do everything and the other to take advantage like that; it is LOVING to allow people pick up after themselves. 
*not sharing hobbies together*--this is a biggie I suspect and again very easily correctable; just find something that you both enjoy doing and make the time to do it together. It can be anything from car shows to video games to reading books to sports--just do it with each other and have fun...and don't make excuses to miss it.
*silent treatment*--AH here it is! The BIG one. This one is the attitude of growing cold, hardening the heart, and keeping the walls up rather than being vulnerable and taking the risk being hurt. This is my guess for your #1 love extinguisher and probably the one I would recommend you work at the most--learn to be vulnerable and share openly with your intimate partner.
*not being a safe haven*--last guess; this one is the attitude of having one safe person you could share ANYTHING with and they would care enough about you to listen, to comfort you if need be, to show some sympathy, and to actually HEAR you. This one may be #2...what do you think? Learn how to be the soft place for your spouse to fall.

3) Finally..."checking out the availability of another companion" at this point would mean you would also be engaging in adultery. I don't honestly believe that's your character or the type of man you are. You be an example to your son! Be completely faithful until the end to demonstrate what commitment, honor, value and TRUE LOVE really means. Buck up--you can do it.


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## iamnottheonlyone

That is a great checklist. I have certainly done a little of everything. Many friends were surprised at the affair just because we were together so often.
Let me give you an example of how one area changes over time. Househaold choirs. When she first moved in with me I had a cleaning service that came on 4 hours a week. After a few months she volunteered to do what they were doing. I didn't immediately let them go. I dropped them to twice a month. She insisted we didn't need them. Over the course of the next two years the cleaning dropped off almost entirely. At this point our son was almost one and she was now with the airline. So I am the primary care giver and doing the household choirs. 20/20 hindsight says I just should have gone back to the cleaning service (Just thought of that now.) Instead I resented the fact that when whe came home from work she would do nothing. My reaction was to try to do nothing at all for several days. Don't make the beds, don't do the dishes, don't do the laundry. So the big daily things would not get done. Tehn she would be off on a trip and I would have a giant load of laundry adn a sink full of dishes. I tried the silent treatment for a bit. That didn't work. Ultimately I would give up and do the chores. Or worse, fly off the handle. I didn't like that one at all. So I just did the chores. We finally settled into a routine where she would clean the bathrooms (once every few weeks) and do the laundry (So I wouldn't ruin her clothes) Both of those things dropped off this year. She got upset with me for doing the laundry all the time. 
I really think she wanted that butterfly feeling. When the butterflies go away will she still chase the feeling. On to another man? Just a rhetorical question.
She is still avoiding all her friends. We have a big party to go to on the 12th. She may decide to not go. Too much stress.
Is this a walk-away wife syndrome?


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## turnera

IMO, it's an immaturity syndrome. She hasnt grown up and realized love and marriage are NOT about butterflies; they're about commitment and sticking with someone because you care about them, not about what YOU get out of it.

IMO, she needs to hear this from someone. What about phone counseling with Dr. Harley from marriagebuilders.com? Everyone who has used him has just raved about his ability to get to the heart of the problem and get people to recognize what needs to happen.

Or, I'm not sure what affaircare does, but maybe she counsels?


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## iamnottheonlyone

Turnera,
Thank you for the idea of counselling with Dr. Harley. I will consider suggesting it to her. Maybe I should do it individually?
Right now I am thinking of committing to the separation. We don't have the ability to have no contact as we have our 17 year old son. In fact we had a sports banquet for our son last night. We had a "normal" evening. We sat at a group table. She could talk to one of our friends on one side and me on the other. She spent about half the time speaking with me. This does not mean we made any progress. It continues to be so strange for her to act like nothing is wrong. Of course I like the attention and am not regretting it. 
I spoke with my good friend, S, last night. He had a couple of insightful questions and observations for me. He said since she has been acting for quite sometime he is not surprised that she could behave this way. She has been lying about the affair. So this might well be just a practiced performance.
S has read His Needs, Her Needs this week. He was enlightened by the book. He has a strong marriage and I believe after reading the book he is committed to improving that great marriage. He has a great attitude toward change.
He was thinking that if my wife moved in with her boyfriend that could improve her chances of coming back to reality and seeing the affair for what it is and is not. I had the same thought. My friend has also looked at this site and a number of others I had been on without a suggestion from me. He has vision.
Any advice as to this separation?


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## iamnottheonlyone

I just sent my wife a text. This is what I sent. I told you last week that I will respect whatever space you need. Only you have control over what you think and feel. I want you to be happy. I trust you will make the right decision for you. If you will be happier without me, that is your decision and I will accept it.


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## Affaircare

> He was thinking that if my wife moved in with her boyfriend that could improve her chances of coming back to reality and seeing the affair for what it is and is not. I had the same thought... Any advice as to this separation?


Hi IAMTOO--you can always depend on good ol' AC to give it to ya straight huh?  Oh well...you asked so here is my personal opinion and somewhat professional thought. I tend to agree with you and with your friend. Right now, your faults are being magnified and OM's faults, minimized. Right now your positives are being minimized, his magnified. My GUESS would be that the minute she wants to move in or he needs to support her and her credit card "habit"--he will run away like Sir Robin in Monty Python. I also think that within a relatively quick time she'll notice that you were NOT a monster with your money, etc. Just so you know, though, I am not sure I would suggest that you say something like "Oh I support you moving in with the other man--go ahead! I encourage it, in fact." I think maybe something more like "I want you to know that as long as the affair is going on, I am not able to bear the pain and damage it does to our marriage, so I'm going to ask you to move out." The idea is to stand for the marriage and honoring the vow. Okay?




> I just sent my wife a text. This is what I sent. I told you last week that I will respect whatever space you need. Only you have control over what you think and feel. I want you to be happy. I trust you will make the right decision for you. If you will be happier without me, that is your decision and I will accept it.


 Oh boy. This text is ... well it's malarchy IANTOO. I think I get that you were trying to be all wise and not-controlling but WOW this sends mixed-up messages to her. 

Okay what we are encouraging you to do is to be the sane lighthouse on the shore shining your way back to the safety of the marriage and doing the right thing...while she's in the middle of a blinding storm and fog. Everything you say and do should communicate that you are willing to work with her and take her back, that you will honor your vow no matter what she chooses to do, and that you can not participate in or support an affair. 

Now that being the case, let me re-word you text for you okay? 

*I told you last week that I will respect whatever space you need.* I told you last week that I understand if you need time to see for yourself that I do see my part in the harm done to you, and I'm willing to wait if you want time to see that changes I make are real. I will respect your need to protect yourself. But what I won't do is give you room and space and time to conduct an affair nor will I condone adultery with silence. 

*Only you have control over what you think and feel.* I realize now that I can only change myself and only you can change you, but I would ask if you'd be willing to voluntarily make the choice to honor your commitment to our family and our marriage, and give us a chance. I am willing to give you the chance to rebuild the love and pleasure we once had together, and I know you may not feel that at the moment, but I'd ask that you take the chance to feel love for me. 

*I want you to be happy.* [soapbox] This actually pisses me off a little bit. One outright LIE that people frequently fall for is that if they leave you and act immorally and destroy their family...they will be happy! issed: :FIREdevil: Well take a look at this article: Does a love affair and divorce lead to more happiness? A love affair and divorce does NOT lead to happiness!!! Happiness is from within. Furthermore, saying this means "You can ignore your commitments and covenants in order to pursue your happiness." BULL! Did your vow say "I take you to be my lawfully wedded spouse...as long as you make me happy but the moment you don't I'm outta here?" Mine didn't! [/soapbox] 

Okay now that's out of the way...:rofl: here my reword: I would like you to be happy and I'm willing to work hard to make our marriage a place where we are both respected, loved and intimate--friends and lovers. 

*I trust you will make the right decision for you.* yeah--leave off "for you" because she says committing adultery (which is CLEARLY WRONG) is right for her.  So: I trust you will make the right decision to do the right thing and be the moral, honest, devoted wife I know you to be. 

*If you will be happier without me, that is your decision and I will accept it.* If you choose to break your commitment and continue in this affair, I realize I can not make the choices for you, but I will do what I can to fight for our marriage and protect our family. I will stand firm for "US" until the day that you hopefully choose to return and rebuild happiness by honoring your vow.


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## iamnottheonlyone

AC. You are the best. I don't know where I would be without your support. Of course it would have been smarter if I checked with you before I sent it. (Remember I am the guy who takes every wrong turn.)
She dropped by to get some stuff tonight. Our nephew's graduation is tomorrow. She asked if my son and I were going. I said yes. She said her sister just told her tonight and she has a trip. She was not friendly. No touching. No kiss.
So on to my text. Clearly a bunch of crap. "If you love her, set her free." It is not a Plan B letter. As I said earlier it was swirlling in my head. I can't put any more pressure on her to leave the boyfriend as I have little leverage. I am not quitting. So this is more in line with "hang with your OM and we will see how this plays out." Does any of this see the Love Bank? 
I gave her a couple of compliments last night and I got smirks for them. Are they still Love Bank deposits?
I did have a tough moment this afternoon that stuck with me for the last couple hours. I ran into several mutual friends. They all said "What a beautiful wife you have. What a great couple you make. Both of you are such nice people. You two are like a Hollywood couple." I didn't tell them what was going on. But it stung me badly. One of those things that took me by surprise, so I wasn't prepared for it. Plus I was pretty sure she was off to see the boyfriend today. I tough combo punch. But I am taking the hits and still standing.

Turnera,
Several of her friends would love to tell her what you noted, but she is ignoring them. When I was telling our friends she accused me of Emotional Blackmail.


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## turnera

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Turnera,
> Several of her friends would love to tell her what you noted, but she is ignoring them. When I was telling our friends she accused me of Emotional Blackmail.


Of course she did. You are trying to keep her from her crack cocaine. You are forcing her to look at her cheating through her friends' eyes. And she doesn't like what she sees. So she blames you.

As for the text...I'll try to be civil. But good lord man, how big do you want us to paint 'doormat' on your back? I don't think it's big enough to fit the size of the sign you need.

Please remember that women HAVE to be able to respect their man. If you don't FIGHT the affair, FIGHT for your woman, she hates you. Or grows to. So go ahead, keep being 'nice.' See how fast she runs out the door.

Of course you haven't gotten anywhere with her. You're ignoring advice, and then just wondering why you're not getting the results you want.


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## iamnottheonlyone

"Does a love affair and divorce lead to more happiness?" Very interesting article. I am not going to convince my wife she is doing the wrong thing by showing her these stats. But it gives me hope to hang around.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Turnera,
Remember, she has gone out the door. This was my pathetic attempt to say I am not going to beg, plead or coerce. To me that was the doormat. But not quite a Plan B. I will have plenty of time to show my good side over the next month or so. What can I do to get her to "cheat" on the Boyfriend?


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## Affaircare

Right--it's similar to when you gather evidence. You don't get them to confess or admit it usually (they'll deny-deny-deny ) but YOU know the truth and YOU know what's going on. She'll never listen to the statistics, but shoot--now YOU know! The more you know IANTOO, the better job you can do. And by the way, no one is perfect at this--it hurts too much. I mean let's be really honest here--I know all this stuff and even I fell into an EA! :slap: Not exactly my finest hour!  But it does go to show that it can happen to anyone and no one is perfect. 

You are doing remarkably well and learning an awful lot in a very short amount of time. The life changes you're making are the kinds of things that can take a lifetime for people to even recognize, much less change. And yeah I do "get it" that you're trying to express that you can't "make her" love you or do the right thing...kind of like you said: "If you love her set her free"... but maybe a better way of looking at the same coin would be to recognize that the commitment made at marriage is for a LIFETIME of good stuff and bad stuff, and to let her know that you absolutely could live without her and have a happy, abundant life full of love--but that you CHOOSE her every day. 

Remember both of you could build a life of loving, romance, passion, financial security...everything if only she would invest into the marriage what she is currently investing in the OM. If she got dolled up for you, flirted with you, sent lovey stuff to you...hey this marriage could be HOT! Hot! HOT! So just keep those things in mind. You don't really "set her free" (as in, "get outta here, go on go!")--you take your hands off the control and release her to do what she will. She may very well crash (she probably will to be honest) but if she does you let her learn that her choices have natural consequences that she needs to consider. 

By the say--sorry to hear about the One-Two punch today. It's tough getting those unexpected socks to the gut. I'm thinking tonight may be a good night to do something just for IANTOO.


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## iamnottheonlyone

AC and Turn,
Yeah, I still do stupid things. But I am feeling better every day. Because of your guidance I am going thru this with my eyes wide open. Every post you make I learn something new. My therapist has said similar things to what you have been saying about my progress. I wouldn't have done it without you and the other helpful people reading this thread. (the journalling is also very therapeutic).
My gut is saying that my wife was ticked off about the grauation for a number of reasons. First, her sister had invited me and my son first. Second, I didn't tell her about the invitation. Third, I am adjusting better than she thought I would. Still, I know there will be surprises ahead for me. I am on the roller coaster and not geting off for a while.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I spent my evening with my sister-in-law and her husband. First time we have been together since my wife left. They said they were shocked by the affair. He brought some additional insight. He has been married 3 times. He has been through the I love you but I am not in love you twice. Both times he caught his wives in affairs. He loved them but decided against staying married. One of them wanted back into the marraige. The other did not.
He thought that my wife's affair would end once things got "normal" between her and her boyfriend. He said they were dating. Once the dating period ends she would see the light. He was upset that she would have taken on a boyfriend before she complained that she was unhappy.
When I spoke with my wife Friday morning she said she would talk to me Saturday when she got in. I didn't think much of that but now I am concerned.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am anxious today. I had thoughts this morning of packing up all my wife's things and either having her take them away or putting them in storage. It was not a good thought.
I have been troubled by the text I sent her a few days back. Was I giving her space or inviting her to divorce me? There was article in the paper today about the Gore's separation. It included commentary on long marriages not making it. It has disturbed me. Oh this rollercoaster sucks.


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## Affaircare

IANTOO~ Breathe in-Breathe out...long, slow yoga breaths to the count of 7...every exhale releases anxiety and fear. 

I would suggest that you be the one in control of when and or if you have a conversation with your wife, not to be controlling but so that you are physically and mentally prepared and have had time to think about what you want to do, what you want to communicate, how to do that, etc. So tonight when she wants to "have a talk" you can just tell her "I'm sorry but I'm not ready to talk right now and I'll let you know when I am." She only talks to you when she's ready--and I see no reason why you can't talk when YOU are mentally and emotionally prepared. 

I mean--seriously she can not MAKE you talk tonight. Take a night OFF. Take yourself to a movie you've wanted to see that she would not like. Take yourself to dinner: I can testify that the Red Lion Inn in Vail is fun.  Do something a little nice for YOU and while you have some time out of the pressure cooker, you can think and make decisions. Consider things like what message you want to get across (something like "She is lost and confused in a storm--you are the lighthouse guiding her back to the marriage"), what you will both give and require in a lifetime partner (things like personal responsibility, personal openness and transparency, honoring the commitment, ALL affection and loyalty for each other only). Then when you have that firmly in mind, you can decide when or how you would be ready to ask her to be faithful to you or move out.

Staying in your family home, with your children, and carrying on the affair with your support in any number of ways is not an option. You may not realize it but when I look at the Love Kindlers, I still see you providing her with all these commitments: emotional, spiritual, financial, physical, family, social and security! You and your son would not be the ones wanting to abandon the family or marriage--so you two stay put. So calmly she can choose to stay and commit to rebuilding the marriage and family she's built for 20 years--or she can choose to leave to be on her own and take a chance with the OM. [FYI: Chances are about 99.99% he will freak and dump her as soon as he realizes she's going for the picket fence and not just a free fling in the hay.] 

Anyway, that's my thought. You don't have to talk to her tonight. Talk when YOU want to talk--when YOU are ready.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thanks AC. You really helped me there. I was starting to feel like I felt the first week, a month and a half ago.
Remember, my problem is a little different from most. My wife is out of the house, living with a girlfriend. So I try to do the best I can with the kindlers in the time we have without smothering or appearing needy. (The best thing I have going for me right now is my son.)


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Thanks AC. You really helped me there. I was starting to feel like I felt the first week, a month and a half ago.
> 
> Remember, my problem is a little different from most. My wife is out of the house, living with a girlfriend. So I try to do the best I can with the kindlers in the time we have without smothering or appearing needy. (The best thing I have going for me right now is my son.)


I do understand that she's not living "at home" right now but I think in the back of her head, where you and her son are is "home" and the girlfriend's is the GF's place... it's not like she has her own place and is self-sufficient in other words, nor does she have a place that she has established and claimed as her own. So "home" is kind of her safety net. 

And regarding talking to her when you're ready--it never ceases to amaze me when people let their disloyal spouse sort of call the shots and say "when and how" they'll be together, talk, etc. Hey, you are just as much and equal a partner in this as she is, and YOUR needs are just as valuable as hers. My point here is not to get you into an "all you" mode but rather to just remind you that you have the right to say no or tell her you are not ready to talk now. You can have some say in these things and it is reasonable to speak up for yourself. So no worries--don't avoid talking but do it when YOU are prepared and you have your heart guard on and you're thinking clearly with a calm, loving head. 

Regarding Kindlers--you often say you only provide her child care, but let's review: 

Emotional--you still communicate to her that she is valued, loved, respected and even understood. If you didn't love and value her, she'd be having her A and you'd be kicking her to the curb! The OM only provides some admiration/appreciation and some affection, so I'd say 50-75% being met by you here.
Spiritual--you still treat her morally (if you didn't, you'd condone her A), you are still honest with her, and you've indicated willingness to forgive even a mistake this big! I'd say the OM is not behaving morally, being honest with her, nor would he be willing to forgive her unfaithfulness to him, so you're 100% here. 
Financial--you were contributing to her home, food, clothing, bills, car, phone...everything...and even now you'd be willing to contribute as long as she's not using your money to finance her adultery! You were 100% before and probably 50-75% now or so.
 Physicall--you consistently communicate you'd be willing to offer tender touches (hugs and kisses) and have mutually satisfying sex, you have desire and interest, and you've kept yourself physically fit and attractive. The OM may have said he wants to do these things and they may have done some kissing, etc. but even if they've had sex there's much more to this one so I'd say you're meeting 75% 
Family-you make time for your son, provide care for him, make time for yourself and are willing to make time for her...AND you're doing all the household chores! I'd say 100% on this one!!
Social--you would be willing to include her in your social life and when you do have mutual activities now you treat her civilly and respectfully in public; you could do things together that you both find fun and be companions but this is probably one the OM is filling somewhat right now. I'd say 50% or so on this don't you think?
Security--right now she may not have felt safe coming to you "as a friend" with her feelings, and she didn't stand by you in your times of trouble, but you're working on making her feel safe, and you have DEFINITELY been loyal and committed to her, you have not threatened to end the marriage (just to scare her or force her) and you are not abusive. I'd say 50-75% here...what do you think?

So as you can see, you really are still providing a LOT of her Love Kindlers and there is a lot you can do and offer to rebuild the flame of love in your marriage. Don't sell yourself short.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I appreciate your inventory. I would have to agree with your assessment . I hope it has some impact on her. I may not have mentioned it but on a couple of occasions last week she said our place was never her home. Utterly silly remark and not worth arguing about. Where could she have come up with this idea? And it is certainly her son's home. She has made no contribution to the household since she left. If she were the husband in this situation there would be all kinds of red flags. Financial support for her son? Help around the house? Plant the flowers her son has asked her to do? Should I address this?
No issue about talking tonight as she never called either me or my son. So I have calmed down (and the breathing helped) Thanks


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## iamnottheonlyone

As strange as this may sound, I am having a good day while not having any idea what my wife is up to. She told my son and I that she would call us Saturday when she got in from her trip. No contact with either of us. She was to go out again today. I am doing chores and playing the guitar. I have felt almost normal the whole day.
Did I mention that over the past year my wife has been asking for breast implants. Good thing I didn't make that "investment". Five grand so someone, other than me, could squeeze "them". 
Lastly, I am raised Catholic and attend church occasionally. The last 20 years have been, overall, good to me and my family. For those 20 years I never prayed with a purpose. I prayed just to thank God. I did pray with a purpose last night...Just in case he might have a trick or two up his sleeve. I thank God for the peaceful day he gave me today.


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## turnera

While you're trying to end an affair, you should be an amazing husband to show her what she's missing; you should fight the affair with everything you've got to show her you will FIGHT for her (what we all want from our men; it's biological); and you should set a timeline for how long you will wait for her to make up her mind.

Don't get bogged down in the minutae. Take time to learn what she wanted from you and didn't get, and provide it. Or DO it, and let her know you are now providing it, if she's not there. My husband never built the bridge I bought 20 years ago; if I left him, and I were to find out he finally built it, it would register with me that he finally 'heard' me and put MY happiness ahead of his. Do stuff like that.

But above all, right now, fight the affair.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am not giving up. However, I have nothing to fight with. She was missing this weekend. She said she would talk to me Saturday. But she didn't. She didn't even talk to her son. She texted him last night to say high. I am not calling or texting her. Wouldn't that be needy? I told her that she could have her space and she has disappeared. I am sure she was off with ther boyfriend. She surely is behaving like an addict. I am not in Plan B butif I was it would seem that it would not matter to her. She has thrown away her life. My sense of things is that she has to have a real relationship with this man to end the affair. I believe she has committed to him. It would appear she cannot handle two relationships at once. I have doen everything I can do to stop the affair. I think I am at the stage where she needs to heal from our relationship. I am healing myself. I wsa alone for mist of the weekend. I was not anxious or despondent. One pretty good day. I know I will be on the rollercoaster. I was only anxious when my wife texted my son last night. She was such a great person. Where did she go? She is so selfish now.


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## turnera

Maybe it IS time for Plan B. Let OM meet all her needs; the best way to cave an affair if exposure doesn't work is to let HIM be the one who holds her head over the toilet. Fantasies dissolve quickly when real life takes over.

Are you familiar with what Plan B would entail?


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am very familiar with Plan B. I have done quite a bit of reading. I don't know if I am ready to take it emotionally. It was hard enough to give her "space". I think of it as high risk. At some point it will happen if I keep improving emotionally. At this point I think she is thinking about committing to her new relationship anyway. She will then see if he can handle her. I think he will be surprised by her personal idiosincracies. However, I don't plan on letting her "doormat" me (beyond what I have let her do so far.) I think she is going to blow off both me and my son. She may very well have lost touch with all the things that met something to her.


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## Affaircare

Just a note to self. At this point I hear two things that lead me to believe it's not quite Plan B time yet: 

1) Before a spouse goes into Plan B-Consequences Stage, it is REALLY advisable to do a great Plan A-Carrot & Stick Stage first to be sure the disloyal sees what they would potentially be missing. IANTOO you keep saying you have nothing to fight "with" and yet I gave you that inventory of Love Kindlers, right? Of those, you were involved in all seven still and providing her with 50-100% of them. THAT is what you have to fight with. The action in Plan A-Carrot & Stick stage is not just to "wine and dine her again" or be Mr. Romantic. I hate to say this but not everyone is a "romance" kind of person, and to some the way to their heart is to be steady and dependable, or financially secure, or physically attractive. So you have several weapons and you know what you did to pursue and catch her in the first place 20 years ago! (Big advantage!) The thing that probably hurt your marriage most was those Love Extinguishers--and those you know are the part of you that you have to work on. At this time she's not living there to see that you're more open or more tender-hearted and willing to listen...but you keep BEING that man and you know what will happen? Your son will mention to her he's noticed the change...some of her friends will say something...it will start to leak back to her...and when she is around you she may notice it (AND TEST IT) too. 

2) You don't sound like a man who is running out of love yet. She has dumped some rather large buckets on the flame of your love, but it has not burned out yet and isn't quite in danger of getting so low--at least it doesn't sound that way in your posts. You can tell when you get there when you are like finallyseewhy or discarded. Their marriages are NOT going great right now, but they also have gotten to the point where they can see what is theirs and they take personal responsibility for their stuff--but they also see what is their spouse's and don't take their issues and don't bail them out of their choices. Please don't take this wrong--it's not "fab-u-lous" and I'm sure it's very hard on those two ladies to have to live like this while the man they love loses his mind temporarily--yet they are both in a fairly sane, fairly rational, normal state of mind and able to see that their life is still good and they miss their spouse but they still have happiness and the love of others in their lives. Know what I mean? Finallyseewhy and discarded were sort of both THRUST into a Plan B that their disloyal H's keeps testing, but you can also start to hear the serenity in their posts...and when you're ready for Plan B-Consequences you'll start to sound like that too I think. 

Sooooo...let's keep working on Plan A-Carrot & Stick for a while and maybe you can decide when it's time to move. Maybe when she moves in with Quagmire, you'll be ready to move too. For the next couple days though, what Love Extinguisher are you going to be working on? 

I personally work on ScoreKeeping as I tend to occasionally feel like I'm taken advantage of and not very appreciated. Honestly? That's a personal flaw of mine big time--I crave admiration! YIKES! But I also try to discipline myself on Getting Too Comfortable. When things are going well, I tend to get sort of lazy-ish and expect things to coast. *sigh*


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## iamnottheonlyone

I have two tickets to the Red Sox game for Saturday. I bought these before she left. She knows I bought them for her. Now that I have given her "space", do I ask her to go with me? I spoke to my son yesterday about this. I said I expect him and I would be going. He siad I should ask her. Is it too early to expect a date with my wife? Would just asking set us back? Right after the game is a graduation party. It is at our friend, J's. She is the woman who gave me His Needs, Her Needs. It will all make for an interesting dynamic.


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## turnera

By all means, ask her!

Plan B is only for someone who is going crazy watching his wife cheat on him or not choose him, and it's causing him so much emotional distress that he can't bear to come into contact with her any more; it's for YOU, to preserve YOUR sanity and what little love you have left for her...before you fall out of love for her completely - which WILL happen if you stand back and watch her cheat for a year, 2 years...

In other words, you need to know a cutoff where you just won't hang on any more.

But in the meantime, Plan A like crazy! Look good, smell good, immaculate house, do all the things there that she always asked for but never got...show her what life with you _could_ be like.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thanks T.


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## Affaircare

I agree--I'd ask her. The worst that could happen is she'll say "no" but then that's her decision to make right? I see no reason to not ask her to a ball game, have a great time (don't make a move or anything, just have fun--it's the SOX :smthumbup: ) and show her a Great Plan A-Carrot & Stick: namely Social Commitment of a fun social life and fun spending time together recreationally.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I will ask her to the game. And I am prepared to hear "No". Or something like, "You are still not getting it". How many times have I heard that one in the past 6 weeks? Still, it ahould be a deposit in the Love Bank.


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## Affaircare

Right--because you are showing that you want her and want to be with her. And when you hear something like "You are still not getting it" just bear in mind that's Disloyal Dizziness and means that she's still fogged in and needs the lighthouse to guide her back.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I have some good news. After reading "His Needs, Her Needs", I have been telling my friends about it. One of my friends read it last week and it hit him head on. He says he was stunned what he did not know at 52 years old. He has been using his new found understanding this week. He says he stayed up with his wife until 1:40 in the morning talking about their relationship. He said that they hadn't talked like that since they were dating. His wife has read some of it. It seems they feel renewed and committed. He is talkiing to his buddies about reading it RIGHT NOW. So all your help on this site may have saved another marriage that didn't think it was in trouble.


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## Affaircare




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## iamnottheonlyone

And the answer is...Maybe. 
She came in and she wanted to know if I needed the car she had. I said it depended on her schedule. She said she works Saturday night. I said I wanted her to come with me to the Red Sox game. She said she had forgotten about it and she has to be to work by 5. I said the game's at 1 and we could leave whenever she wanted. She said she would think about it.
Better than no. But probably will be no anyway. Love Bank! Got a kiss on the cheek.


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## Blue Moon

Ugh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone

The days my wife was out of contact, I assumed she was travelling to see her boyfriend during the week. I believed it was a couple trips. Round trip is about 300 miles. I have no control over that so why did I have to check the odometer? One thousand miles in 2 weeks. So now she has the truck. If she wants to travel like that it will cost her some cash. There is no reason for me to make it easy for her. Out of the fantasy and into the real world. 
We have events coming up over the next two weeks that we could attend together. I will see what interest she has in doing them. One problem for me is that one of the events is near her boyfriend's place. I still plan to ask her.


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## turnera

Definitely do NOT pay for her affair! Make it as hard to see him as possible. If you know she's planning to see him, suddenly have something to do so that she's stuck with the kids. If you know where they are going, show up at that restaurant with the kids. Make it as uncomfortable as you can.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Yesterday I called my friend S. and my friend J. seeking advise as to whether or not to ask my wife to the ballgame. I couldn't reach J. She called me this morning. She said she was getting pissed that my wife had not returned her calls. While we were reviewing the recent past, my wife called J. So I hung up so they could talk. I haven't been able to reach J. so I have no update.


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## Affaircare

IANTOO~

Bear in mind that your wife is going to have a whole different spin on this. If J was her friend before the affair, she'll probably tell J how you neglected her and it was the verge of abuse, and that her and the OM are "just friends" but you've spied on her and drug her name through the mud trying to control her while she's entirely innocent (aka, make you the bad guy). This is often a disloyal tactic for damage control, to justify their actions and legitimize their affair partner.

Thus it is entirely possible that when/if you do get an update, it may be bad news or J may feel sort of confused or made to take sides, etc. If that occurs, don't worry. There are PLENTY of people who do see through her smoke screen and who will stand with you and stand by you to help...okay? Also you may hear news you don't want to hear--like she slept with him or she's moving in. Just ... brace yourself. Maybe meditate and pray and be ready for anything.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I understand. My son was just in touch with J"s daughter. He then said, "What time is the game over. Can we leave the game in time to make the start of the party?" I said, "If your mother is going to the game...". He cut me off and said she said she has to work. I said that she said she might be able to go. He said well that's what she said. I asked heim when she said that. He got appropriately testy as I was putting him in the middle. Now I'm anxious again. I'm thinking I never should have asked her to go. My son said, "Don't you tink she wanted to go?" I didn't answer. Then my wife came by to get something to my son. Never came in. 
I told my wife I would give her space. Am I making things tougher for myself? I am going to call J. now.


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## turnera

What I think is that it is now time to STEP BACK. 

You are investing way too much time on what she is doing or not doing, and not nearly enough on what you are doing - with your LIFE.

She is NOT your life, no matter how bad you want her. She may be PART of your life. But YOUR life will go on, no matter what happens.

You can't control her. So for your own sanity, please step back and start figuring out how your life will go by yourself, in case she doesn't come back.

Plus, you look more attractive if you aren't so 'into' her and have your own life. Ok?


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## iamnottheonlyone

Yeah. I did some thinking about just that last night. We have a number of things we will be doing together the next two weeks because our son has several days of sporting events. I really got caught up with this baseball game even though I prepared myself for no. Was this a love buster because it made her uncomfortable?
Nothing will happen with my relationship until the affair is damaged. I am coming to grasp with that reality. That is me coming out of my fog. I want the contact to meet her needs. However, that won't stop the affair. It has to die on its own. I keep telling myself to be patient. By inviting her to do things with me that I know she won't do I am only causing myself more grief. This has messed me up. I know I have no control over what she does or how she feels.
I don't know if I mentioned this, but I gave up coffee 6 weeks ago. I am certain that it had an impact on my behavior at home. What kind of conversation can you have with a person who is on his 10th cup of coffe? I went cold turkey.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I had a meltdown. I could feel it building all morning. I just couldn't find my center. I went out of balance. My good friend S. helped me regain it. I was thinking about my better half being ripped out of my soul. I am trying to fill in the void. I have been doing a fairly good job with all your help. I need to pull back more. I need to get in touch with my new reality (and still not quit my marriage).


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## turnera

You can always get back together, later, ok? It doesn't have to be this week, this month, even this year.


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## readytolearn

Your hanging on too tight out of fear that you'll lose the flame and won't be able to get it back, which is a very valid concern. But for now, you have to distance yourself from her to preserve yourself and that is the top priority. With what we've learned from harley, it is possible to rekindle even after the flame goes out so don't worry that the distance being permanent should she come to her senses and come back.

Take care my friend. I feel so bad that this is happening to you and your wonderful family. Sometimes i wish BS would just understand the deep wounds their actions cause...


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## iamnottheonlyone

That was very kind of you readytolearn. 
Here is today's tale.
My wife came over this morning. She tried to drop the truck off at the garage to get it fixed and then she was going to take a bus to her boyfriend's house in NH. The repair shop couldn't take it. She decided to drop off my son's stuff she had with her from last night and wanted to talk to me about the ball game and this weekend's party. She said she would have gone if she didn't have to work.
She said that I may not be welcome at the party. The hostess J. may be concerned that it would become a pity party for me instead of a party for her daughter. Now my son is conflicted about going to the game with me. He may be feeling guilty about taking my wife's place. 
She said our relationship is over. She is not coming back. She hinted that she is going to change our financial relationship so that it would be more difficult for both of us. So that would be divorce. Then she "manipulated" me into trading the truck for the car. She said she was angry that I couldn't get it fixed while she was gone. That I had the truck for the week. (While she took the car to her boyfriend's or to work.) That a long drive is very expensive.
She said I had made things much worse for us with the exposure. I told people way too much and way too many people. She is still really mad about me talking to her parents. She tried to leave while she was angry and I insisted she stay until we cleared the air. I said we need to communicate. She said why now when we haven't talked for years. She is going to her own therapist to deal with the anger issues. She said she is not coming home.
I told her again that I was out of my mind when this first happened and I made some bad decisions. That I was looking for anyway to get her to see the light and come home. It all backfired driving her further away.
So in my case, with my wife out of the house, I think exposing this was the wrong thing to do to get her back. I would advise against it in similar circumstances. I should have never asked her to leave our home.
I am backed off. I must anticipate she will have me served at some point. In the mean time I will keep my cool. I understand that it is not over until it is over. I have changed much in 6weeks. She is in love with him and not me. I accept that now. I know it can change. But if she moves to divorce me my hands are tied. I said as little as I could to her to try and get my points across.
I hold out very little hope. She is in a trance. She is really digging in her heals.
I called our friend J. I told her I woudn't come if she thought it would turn into a pity party. I told her I would behave myself. She said that I was invited. That it was to be a fun event. There would be no talking about my situation.


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## Tanelornpete

IANTOO - She's just trying a different tact to get you 'back in line' and to make you look like the bad guy. She will keep trying until she realizes that you have broken out of that habit and aren't playing that game.



> It all backfired driving her further away.
> So in my case, with my wife out of the house, I think exposing this was the wrong thing to do to get her back. I would advise against it in similar circumstances. I should have never asked her to leave our home.


Exposing this was exactly what was needed. It put the affair on the defensive. You don't expose the affair 'to get someone back' - having them come back would be nice, but it is not the reason you do it. You do it in order to get the affair out into the open, so that it can no longer be hidden in lies and secrecy. Once that happens, the consequences of the lies and manipulation become apparent, making it more difficult, and creating a situation in which the affair _must be examined_ 

In your situation, your wife is used to amorally having things go her way - getting what she wants, when she wants it, regardless of cost and consequence. She is used to you covering the consequences. All of the sudden it looks like the gravy train may be coming to an end. And this concerns her deeply - she is used to it - it's a habit. 

So, she is doing all she can to get you 'back in line.' She will try all kinds of things - even divorce - to get you to 'back off'!!! (In her mind, 'back off' means 'quit trying to interfere with my adultery.) If one thing does not work, she will try something else. It won't stop until the consequences of her choices become apparent, painful and demanding enough for her to step back and begin rationally examining her life. 

It will only be at that point that there will be any forward movement for your relationship. She knows you! She knows that if she just throws enough tantrums, you will give in...

Will you?

By the way - how about going back over your wife's statements and looking at them to see where the fog (dizziness) is talking - what is she REALLY saying, and what are some good replies for you? Your marriage really needs some clear thinking right now!


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## turnera

Your wife is acting 100% typical wayward. Kicking and screaming. Crying foul. Blaming it all on you. Threatening divorce. All of it. Textbook. Just smile, offer her a cookie, and change the subject. What she says right now is meaningless. Don't agree to any separation or divorce steps. Hold your ground. Wait for her new life to implode. And for god's sake, stop caving and giving her the car!

Good for you for calling J. YOU shouldn't be the one skulking around and hiding. You should hold your head up high that you LOVE your wife, FOUGHT for your marriage, and did the right thing. (except for caving on the truck/car  )

A party is a perfect opportunity for you to show everyone that you are taking the high road, have a lot to offer, and are the sane one of the bunch. If she's there...well, I feel sorry for her. 

Please please please have a good long talk with your son and remind him that all this stuff is NOT on his shoulders; that all he should be concerned with is enjoying his summer, ok? He needs to hear these talks from you, on a daily basis if need be. Please don't parentify him.


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## Affaircare

"Parentify"  Good word there, Turnera! 

IANTOO--Tanelorn and Turnera both have some good points, and I've assigned you some homework on this thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/14178-thread-cmf-finallyseewhy-iamnottheonlyone.html

I think you are mistaking disloyal dizzy deflections and blame for true statements and reality. And I would like you to consider something: your marriage can survive "anger"--it can NOT survive another man in the relationship. So she can be angry at you; the object here is not to be a doormat and avoid anger. The focus is for you to end Love Extinguishers, show her you can meet her needs, but also "the stick" of letting her experience the consequences of her choices. it's positive and negative reinforcement--get it?


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## turnera

Yeah, and having to take the bus to see her honey would have been an EXCELLENT stick.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I think I am starting to understand. See my focus had been to get her back. But that can only happen once she has no interest in him or him in her. She has little interest in me. I want to keep things cool so that I don't get served. I will let the fire burn for them, so that it can burn out. How long can she keep traveling 300 miles a trip. She was complaining about the cost today. Is he paying for gas? Even if he is, the travelling will take its toll. Something will have to give. Still, I think they won't move in together since my son would not approve. I will do my best to keep the car next week. I can wait this out for months with your support. She won't come back to me while she is still "in love".


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## turnera

By George, I think he's got it! 

That's exactly it. Make it as uncomfortable as possible to keep up this charade. LET her complain about the cost. If she complains to you, just smile and say 'you're always welcome back home.' Let her think on that. Let her compare the two. Oh, and DD19's college is 300 miles away; that's a ****** to drive more than once in awhile!

I wanted to say, iam, that even though you follow this plan, do the right thing, it's still always possible it won't work. She may never come back. But working on yourself, reading books, becoming a better person and father...it's all good, right? 

Even if she never comes back, you're gonna make one helluva great husband to someone else, should you decide to pursue it. And your wife? Well, she'll be wallowing around in that pen with other men...not having learned a thing. (not trying to disparage your wife, but to make a point, ya know?)

My point is, don't determine your success on whether you get your wife back. Some are just too stubborn to admit defeat, and will spend the rest of their life miserable, 'proving' they did the right thing. Your success is that YOU did the right thing, YOU held your head up high, YOU pointed out what she could have done to save herself, and YOU were gracious enough to accept her mistakes and want her back.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thank you. I believe you. I have accepted the fact that if "they" don't make it she will LIKELY not come back. But you are right. I have tried my best. I have nothing to be ashamed of. And I will absolutely be a better husband... to whomever. I think I was always a great dad. I am getting even better.


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## turnera

Well, that's what Plan A is for, if you're still up for it. Look good, smell good, do all the things she always asked for and you were too busy for, get a LB questionnaire and try to fill it out FOR her, as well as an EN questionnaire; these will let you be more focused on doing things that MATTER to her, to do a direct strike on her feelings.

You married for a reason. Try to get her to see and remember what that was.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Yeah. Plan A is for me now that I am relatively fog free. The idea of giving her space is a dead concept. That really is more Plan B. So I will take as much space as I think is appropriate and I can get.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Quite an experience today. Sometimes you lose and you are not a loser. This post tonight is for some on this forum, and you know who you are, who have been struggling trying to do the right thing.
WHAT A DAY I HAVE HAD!!!
Remember that my wife said that my son didn't want to go to the ball game and I wasn't welcome at the party tonight.
LIE! LIE! LIE!
It couldn't have been a better day.
My son had a great time with me. He respects me and honors me. We had a great day together. He couldn't love me more. 
After the game we went to the party that my wife told me would be a pity party for me. The pity was for her. What a great time. Incredible support. The women said I was a sensitive loving husband, That I displayed equal or more affection than their own husbands. The men said I was supportive and that I was a role model for a good husband. I had a number of discussions with men and women about their relationships. A lot of confiding. I assured them all that their spouses loved them because I know they do. I urged some to jump in the sack tonight and show them how much they love them. Great friends and almost all confused. The only ones that were not confused were the ones that have experienced adultery. They were supportive and offered advise. Their new spouses also understood. WHAT A NIGHT! Everyone seemed to have an issue. Some tears, mostly heartfelt exchanges. I was happy I could help many of my friends with very simple advise...like tell your spouse you have a problem. 
I am a good husband!


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## finallyseewhy

Sounds like an amazing day you deserve it


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## Affaircare

Naturally I have a LOT more to say (giggle), but for tonight, suffice it to say, what a wonderful way to be taught that most of what proceeds out of the mouth of a disloyal spouse is simply not based in reality. 

I'm SO VERY GLAD you had the chance to witness first hand that you have people around you who will support and encourage you, AND that the way you remembered it was not "nuts"...that she has rewritten a lot and people who knew you two are confused that she would chose to do this. It's a serious validation! 

So you know what? YAY! I think let's take some time and just enjoy this one very good day.


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## turnera

I'm so happy for you.

You're a great example, as you said, for the rest whose first inclination is to run and hide, and not tell anyone. People like you and love you, and WANT to help the betrayed spouse. People, LET them!


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## iamnottheonlyone

The physical and emotional pain are getting under control. Just that one meltdown last week where my goodfriend S. saw me through it.
CMF gave us a little confession today. An old friend has been in touch with her. That isn't cheating. But it is temptation. I think it will improve her confidence and help in her WS in she doesn't get an attitude.
I have been good about not being the love-sick puppy for the last few weeks. CMF's improvement at 9 months gives hope but shows the pitfalls. I want to be the only one, and I know I am barely on the radar. I don't need to love any one besides her. However, like CMF, I don't think it would hurt to be admired. That would add to my confidence and my desirabilty. Am I right. There was an advertisement on the radio while I was reading CMF's post...Events and Adventures (not a dating service). I went on the website and they have a full calendar of things to do in a group. I called the 800 number a spoke with the intake person. Very forthright person. 50 years old and twice divorced.
Her most intersting comment about their program was that men don't like to be alone. They often "jump" at the first attractive person who shows interest. Hmmmm. Program is 60% women.
What do you think? 
What has been going thru my mind is the timeline. Look at CMF. 9 months down the road progress comes. I am only at 2 months along. I have a long wait and I know it. If I can do this group thing and stay improve my confidence it will help me to be ready if things change in the affair.


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## cmf

Iamnottheonlyone- Keep in mind that I did everything I shouldn't have for the first 4 months of the separation. You have been on target almost from the start. My emotions and lack of patience really impede my progress. I am actually doubting that any progress has really been made for me and my situation. He hasn't been consistent for more than a few days and his words do not match any of his actions. Your group idea would keep you busy and not so focused on her, but it would be a chance to be around other women who would really recognize all you have to offer and it will be very tempting for you. They will be drawn to you because you are so committed . I struggle with this now, it would be soo easy for me to just put effort into a new relationship because I would see results and feel I mattered. It would take my focus off him. I do know that once I start with someone else, there will be no looking back. I have a lot of history with this OM and he is everything my husband is not right now. There has always been an attraction, but he lacked the passion my husband had for me and was not as open about his feelings. Maybe that is what I need , who knows. I am at a crossroads with this.


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## Tanelornpete

> An old friend has been in touch with her. That isn't cheating.


It's not a problem - we're just friends. 

Playing with fire there.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Don't you know it. The pain can be so overwhelming.


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## notreadytoquit

Just finished His Needs Her Needs. Great book. Don't know if it will help me in this marriage but I will reread it next time I am in a serious relationship again. My MIL is here visiting. She is feeling really uncomfortable about the whole situation. She also has the same "why" questons as me.H won't talk to her much. Tomorrow I will make her read chapter 13 from this book. Great anatomy of how affairs start and end.

The only thing I did not like reading: as per Dr. Harley man are more likely to relapse into an A with the OW than women are with the OM. Seems like always have to sleep with one eye open.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone

In the place we are the benefits to reading this book is how forthright Harley is in describing the natur of an affair. Soul-mates, passionate sex, and most understanding person they ever met. Hard things to read. But he writes it that way because it is true. Tough things to grasp. Furthermore once we understand the other sex's needs we can try to do the right thing. As there is likely to be no response to our positive development until the affair is troubled we soldier on. We try not to have our own affair. We heal.
So, back to reality.
When my wife got in from London yesterday she called me. I missed her call. She left a message saying that said: Just checking in. Wondering how your weekend went. Wondering what your plans are for the week. Call me back. I called back. No answer. So that was a weird call. She hasn't had any interest in what I do. I concluded she wanted to "nice me up" to keep the car.
Before I got home she picked up my son and took him to dinner. When she dropped him off she came in. She needed me to help her with some paperwork for her golf league. She said she had checked around the house for what she needed when she picked up my son. I am sure she saw my "marriage" books. No talk about plans. She wanted to keep the car for tomorrow. I agreed. She left. 
I just called her and left a message on her phone about our plans for the week. I was charming.


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## turnera

iamnottheonlyone said:


> I concluded she wanted to "nice me up" to keep the car.


Is it this upcoming weekend she needs the car to see OM? You really need to rethink letting her keep it. Your job is to make carrying on the affair as hard, disgusting, uncomfortable, and expensive/costly as possible. The more hard times are associated with it, the less attractive it becomes.


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## iamnottheonlyone

We talked this afternoon. She is not agreeable with the "fun" I am having with my son and with our mutual friends. The party we have for Saturday will have most of our friends there. She won't go. And it isn't appropriate for my son. So I asked her to hang with him Saturday if she isn't working. That should be a kink in her plans. 
I have been adjusting quite well this week with backing off. Friendly, positive and non-confrontational.
I have been inspired by CMF's thread. Patience and Plan A.
My son cooked for me and his girlfriend on Sunday night. He told my wife about the cooking. He said she was surprised that I let him do that. Is she sensing the change?
Yesterday I went to check on Events and Adventures. 2500 members. 68% female. Mostly in their 40s and 50s. Too much temptation. They offered me a substantial discount because they need more men. And an extension if I stayed 9 months. Interesting?


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## iamnottheonlyone

How strange it is that at this point looks mean very little. I am in the best shape I have been in in 20 years. But that is not a current need of my wife. 
Looking at CMF's situation, she misread what was going on. H was with a lesser person and he affaired down. He is coming out of the fog. I could be doing the same. But I am 6 months behind her. I am getting more confident every day. My appetite has been coming back. I ate like a teenager tonight. I had a great workout too.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> We talked this afternoon. She is not agreeable with the "fun" I am having with my son and with our mutual friends.


Of course not IANTOO. In her affair-fantasy, you are evil and no one likes you--that's why she is justified in leaving her marriage of 20 years. Thus you having fun with your son and mutual friends means there is a ***** in the affair-fantasy. Hmmmm...:scratchhead:



> ... The party we have for Saturday will have most of our friends there. She won't go.


Of course not IANTOO. In her affair-fantasy, all the mutual friends would be happy for her that she found someone who "truly loves her" and not someone like you. Thus, since you are actually being very dedicated and demonstrating commitment (while her OM is demonstrating the ability to lie and cheat by lying and cheating with her...) that means there is a ***** in the affair-fantasy. Hmmmmm...:scratchhead:



> ... it isn't appropriate for my son. So I asked her to hang with him Saturday if she isn't working. That should be a kink in her plans.


Of course it will IANTOO. In her affair-fantasy, her son is "happy for her" and happily accepts the OM but she actually has to put no effort into her relationship with her son and spend no time with him. He would exist but never interfere with her affair and NEVER prevent her from being with someone who makes her so happy. Furthermore, you would always be available to watch her son so that she could spend every possible stolen moment with the OM. Thus, the fact that she would have to actually SPEND TIME with her son or WORK on their relationship...that he would be less than thrilled about the OM...or that he would actually prevent her from being with the OM means that there is a ***** in the affair-fantasy. Hmmmm...:scratchhead:



> I have been adjusting quite well this week with backing off. Friendly, positive and non-confrontational.


Well...that's confusing. :scratchhead: In her affair-fantasy, you were supposed to be distant, aloof, negative, angry and confrontational so she could justify her actions. You are not acting like you're supposed to! That means there is a ***** in the affair-fantasy. Hmmmm...:scratchhead:



> I have been inspired by CMF's thread. Patience and Plan A.


Psssst....good for you. Me too!  Just a reminder: 90% of Plan A is ending all Love Extinguishers and 10% is allowing her to experience that having an affair is going to be painful, costly, and not at all what she has fantasized it will be.



> ... My son cooked for me and his girlfriend on Sunday night. He told my wife about the cooking. He said she was surprised that I let him do that.


Of course she was surprised, IANTOO. In her affair-fantasy, you didn't listen, you didn't care, you didn't spend time with people, you were a bad parent, you were uncaring, and you control everyone and everything. And hey what do you know...the LOVE KINDLERS are leaking to her through the grapevine (like I told you they would). You gave a hoot! You tried something new. You allowed your son some freedom. You enjoyed his company and spent time with him. You were a parent who demonstrated family commitment (whereas her OM is demonstrating he will DUMP a family if "he's not happy"). That means there is a ***** in the affair-fantasy. Hmmmm...:scratchhead:



> ...Is she sensing the change?


You tell me.      Is Plan A doing it's job? Does it take a while for it to sink in and for her to "hear about it"? Yep. Does it but dents in her dizziness? Yep. Will it take some continued, demonstrated ACTIONS to get back to her? Yep. Are you beginning to SEE that you actually do have weapons to fight this and you are using all that you have at your resources?  YEP!


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thank you AC.
The most difficult time for me now is the hour before I get out of bed in the morning. Negative thought creep in. Although my son and I talked about Father's Day yesterday, what should I expect from my wife? I know she is trying to pick up a trip. Should I ask her to spend time with me and my son that day? Probably not. Asking her to the ballgame didn't quite work out for me emotionally.
The best part of my day has been reading the threads here, You give me great support and I am happy to help my new "friends" with support. Thanks for being here.


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## cmf

IANTOO- I would just focus on Father's Day with your son. I let myself expect something from my husband and was disappointed- I think he mumbled a "Happy Mother's Day" to me and that was it. The holidays and our anniversary last month were very hard days for me- he always went overboard with those days and it was like a slap in the face when they were not acknowledged.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I remember the trauma. I think you are right. I won't let it bother me. Another great day with my son that she will miss. Consequences. I have recognized that I needed to take the long view for several weeks. You inspire me. If you can be so patient there is no reason I can't.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife wanted to take my son out of school and up to her parents place by the beach. He didn't want to go. (Remember she didn't want me to take him out of school Friday for the golf tournament). This got me thinking. Was she going to have her boyfriend come down to hang out with them? To my knowledge my son has never met him. Now I want to ask him if they have met. I don't want that man to have anything to do with my son. My boy is 17. He can make his own choices. I think you can see where this is going. Christmas at the boyfriend's? Not in my mind. Should I ask him? Should I suggest to him if she suggests they spend time togehter that I ask him not to? What if I say something like: At sometime your mother is going to want you to meet OP. It is up to you to decide whether you want to do that or not. You should be prepared to deal with it. One day he might just appear in your mom's apartment. You need to take a look at how you are likely to react. blah, blah.
I need some help here.


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## turnera

Have you talked to the OM yet?


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## iamnottheonlyone

No I have not spoken to the OM. I am not even sure who he is. Is there a reason for me to do that now?


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## turnera

It can't hurt.

If I were in your shoes, I would have told him to stay the hell away. I would have called his wife if he has one, his parents, his siblings, and told them he's cheating with a married woman. I would have called your wife's parents, siblings, pastor, and best friends, and told them she's having an affair.

And I would be updating them on her activities, so that they won't 'forget' that she's still married and committing adultery. I would be making her affair as hard to carry on as possible. Because you can never get her back, as long as the affair's going on.

As for your son, don't put him in the middle. Be very frank with him and tell him that it hurts you to think that he would be spending time with OM, but that it's his decision. Whatever HE wants to do, you will support.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am off to the golf tournament that my wife would have loved to play. Consequence? Many of our friends will be there. Then back for the lacrosse tournament tonight. She said she will try to make it. We'll see. I am looking forward to a fun day. Consequences.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife just got in from London. She hurt her back reaching for something on the plane. I expressed concern and asked if she needed any help. She was snappy with me. She wanted to know when I was going to the party our friend is throwing. It appears that is stressing her. It will probably stress her more when she finds out several of our mutual friends are coming by our house before the party and then we are all going there together.


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## turnera

This is the benefit of exposure, in full living color. KNOWING that others know about you, think certain things about you, and even choose not to hang out with you but with the other spouse...BIG BIG consequences - ALL because of what you did.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Yesterday at the golf tournament I won a nice price suitable for a woman. When she came over today I gave her it. She was thankful but quite neutral. I test my emotions every time she comes over. Stayed calm and I gave her a kiss on the cheek. I am so glad this forum is here as it refocuses my mind. When I left her I came in and read some threads. I know nothing will change for sometime and I must stay away from busters. Earlier in the day I told her I was getting a ride down with our mutual friends. That could have affected her attitude. I did not get a Happy Father's Day from her. I think that is causing me some stress. Not over the top though.
I still call her honey when we talk. Do you folks think that is appropriate?


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## turnera

Sure. Let her see that you still see her as wife material.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Good day at the party. A llot of supportive friends. Many who don't know the story ask where my wife was. I told them out on a trip.


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## Lyn

You sound strong, even though you are suffering. 

Best, 

Lyn


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## iamnottheonlyone

I didn't expect that I would hear from my wife on Father's Day. I did. Around 2 in the afternoon she texted me. She wished me a happy Father's Day. She said she was sorry she didn't get me a present, but would have one for me Tuesday. She said she was working Saturday night but I think she was off to see the boyfriend. (If the text was international wouldn't I get a warning for the cost?). My son made me a birhtday card. When then went to a performance by his grilfriend. We went to dinner at a "mutual" friend's house. All in all, Father's Day was swell.
In the back of my mind I constantly think of her. It is like a radio playing on low, barely distracting. It is no longer the HD, 3D TV in my face with the volume cranked up. I recognize I am a newbee in the affair world and need to be patient.
At the party Saturday night, a very pretty woman 30 years my junior flirted with me all evening. This is something I would have never let happen 3 months ago. We would chat a little bit. And walk walk off to talk to others. She'd catch my eye and smile at me. She would walk by me and just say my name. I thought of giving her my number but held my ground. It was a confidence builder. 
However desired I felt Saturday I know on Tuesday when I see my W it will be difficult to show that kind of confidence and create the small talk that can be so appealing.


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## iamnottheonlyone

From my perspective, the most important issue to me is avoiding being served with divorce papers. I am trying to be nice and friendly. Nonthreatening in the sense of no pressure. No love busters. Consequences for her, but no love busters. I have a long road ahead. The OM may be leaning on her to move forward.


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## Lyn

Remember who you are. Also, remember that when temptation arose, you had the strength to resist because you have another mission in mind and that is restoring your marriage. Keep making positive choices and doing what you need to do knowing that the volume of pain and distraction will decrease.

Stay strong.

Best,

Lyn


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## Affaircare

I realize it may seem to you like you have a pea-shooter and the OM has a bazooka right now, but may I remind you of a few things (to boost your confidence)?

Your wife may have been "off to see the OM" but what did she do? While she was with him, she thought of YOU and texted YOU. Further, she thought of you enough to think of getting you a Father's Day gift (even though you aren't her father  ). 

You attended a golf thing she would have LOVED, and you know she was missing that. OM can't give her that. You attended with mutual friends, and OM can't give her that either. You won a surprise and gave it to her--hmmm...is OM getting her surprises? Mutual friends still talk to you and enjoy your company, and since she's with someone else, some of them don't talk to her as much or accept OM. 

You have continued to consistently be faithful, grow and become a better man--and that's starting to leak back to her (from your son and from some of the friends). Even though you did the honorable thing, do you HONESTLY think that some friend isn't going to mention to her "Wow you should have seen how XXX was flirting with IANTOO." Oh she might lose you! You are not her back up plan then! 

Iam it may seem small but these things do chip away at the disloyal and their dizziness. Keep being consistent. Seriously I am only online and I can see it's having an effect on her.


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## readytolearn

Affaircare and Turnera,

You guys are awesome and a very refreshing reminder of just what loving and caring folks we have in this world. The nurturing and care you two have provided for a perfect stranger (Iantoo) is just wonderful. I wish the world had a lot more people like you. Keep up the great work!


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## notreadytoquit

readytolearn said:


> Affaircare and Turnera,
> 
> You guys are awesome and a very refreshing reminder of just what loving and caring folks we have in this world. The nurturing and care you two have provided for a perfect stranger (Iantoo) is just wonderful. I wish the world had a lot more people like you. Keep up the great work!


I don't know what I would have done without these two either. My story may not have a happy ending but they were there when I needed support the most(and still do). I could have not asked for better marriage counsellors.:smthumbup: Thank you both again


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## turnera

notreadytoquit said:


> I don't know what I would have done without these two either. My story may not have a happy ending but they were there when I needed support the most(and still do). I could have not asked for better marriage counsellors.:smthumbup: Thank you both again


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## iamnottheonlyone

I have been reading "Surviving an Affair" and it has brought a couple of issue into focus. In reading the section on withdrawal I recognized that I have been going through the withdrawal phase at about the predicted pace for wayward spouses. Despite the fact that I have been maintaining regular contact with my wife my withdrawal has been progressing fairly comfortably. Is my love for my wife dying a natural death? I don't think so. I feel just as strongly today as I did before the affair. 
When I was considering exposure, the issues that worried me most were embarassment for my wife and that the exposure could cause her to dig her heels in to prove to everyone that she did the right no matter how the affair turns out. The real world comes into view once the affair is in the open. But my wife might not find that attractive any more.
It seems to me that as we have gone through these many exchanges and I have done much reading that the nature of "affair love" is more intense and more likely to fail as compared to love that developes more normally. The affair starts as an emotional connection. When there is an internet affair these people don't have an idea what the other looks like. In the real world we usually start our relationships based on looks and chemistry. Personal magnatism, if you like. 
Any comments?


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## turnera

That affair love is nothing more than your body's mating chemicals kicking in. And it's proven that they only last 2 or 3 years; which is why affairs most often die down once the chemicals die out - there is no real connection to that person. JMO

As for exposure, I'm a fan because I look at it in terms of psychology. Could she dig her heels in? Maybe. But I feel it usually works - to at least stop the affair, if not necessarily to bring her back to you - because we have affairs because they make us feel good; if exposure makes it obvious that it's a slimy, nasty thing, it doesn't feel so good any more - in fact, it becomes embarrassing. And you never know; even if she does go off with Joe Blow, it most likely won't last, and she'll be stuck looking around wondering what to do now; if you've maintained yourself and your relationship, taken the high road, improved yourself, and don't hate her by then, you can always get back together.


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## iamnottheonlyone

"Surviving an Affair" brings in the OP's perspective. So we see the love triangle, as it may be called. I was wondering if the unmarried OP has less emotional baggage than the WS. So the OP might in that case not feel the same high as the WS. Therefore the OP may find that they can be easily distracted. Which party gives up first in an affair, the OP or WS? Any takers?
My wife is coming by soon to pick up my son. I will be back later.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Any doubt in my mind as to where the OP lives was just settled. I got a Father's Day gift from my wife just now. My wife gave me a poster that I have long wanted. It is only available in the town where I supected he lives. She seemed quite happy giving it to me. It is special gift only tainted by its source. 
We made plans to drop off the truck tomorrow for repairs. I will drive her to work. 
Now that I am sure who the OP is, I will ask my pilot friend about him. No harm knowing a little more about the rival.


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## turnera

If you know who he is, you can expose to his family.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> ... It seems to me that as we have gone through these many exchanges and I have done much reading that the nature of "affair love" is more intense and more likely to fail as compared to love that developes more normally. The affair starts as an emotional connection. When there is an internet affair these people don't have an idea what the other looks like. In the real world we usually start our relationships based on looks and chemistry. Personal magnatism, if you like. Any comments?


Actually YES--and I'll speak to you here directly as a person who was disloyal. My OM was younger than my Dear Hubby but not necessarily "in better shape" and actually had several of the same personality traits in a way. But I want to be sure a few things are made clear here, okay?

First, it's not affair "love." Love in the USA is a word that is used for everything from lust to sort of liking a person...so let's get clear. Real Love--True Love is open, honest, responsible, committed, kind, thoughtful, caring ACTIONS even sometimes at times when the other spouse is not being particularly lovable back! In other words it is a decision about how to act and treat someone! Some of the other things we call "love" here in the USA are infatuation (this is close to the affair-zing), "lust" (which is related to chemistry), the love of a brother or dear friend...etc. So I choose to not use the term "love" as it relates to an affair because that's not really love. It's closer to infatuation maybe and about as long-lived. 

Next, I want you to think back to the days when you first met your wife. You probably SAW her and felt some degree of physical attraction; your interest was piqued. Then you got to know her a little (like going to coffee or hanging in her group) and what did you notice? You noticed the Love Kindler things that she did naturally and they interested you even further--and since you only saw her on the occasion when she was somewhat at her best, there were no real Love Extinguishers from her...she was stoking the fire BIG TIME! Next, you asked her out on dates and what did she do? Pile on the kindlers! She got dressed up and looked GREAT (not just good)...but you never really saw her with morning breath and before she put on her makeup did ya? And she made out with you! YAY--that's "chemistry" and "infatuation" and it's meeting the kindler of physical needs! So now the fire was BLAZING AWAY and she still didn't have too many extinguishers at all. Now...keep this image in your mind a little but on a back burner okay?

Switch slightly to thinking about your marriage. A few extinguishers entered here and there over the years. It was a long marriage so there may have just have a one or two a year even! But over some time it eroded a bit and your wife's love fire was pretty low: she knew there was trouble and you knew there was trouble but neither one of you knew just how much or how important it was! You probably thought "Oh that could never happen to us. We love each other and we'll work it out somehow. We're married for life." This is right before the affair started and most likely neither one of you was very happy and you were living like roommates, hurting each other every day with little dings here and there. 

Now...remember that image of the Love Kindlers? Your wife is a smart, beautiful, interesting woman. You are not the only man in the world who notices how wonderful she is and how she lights up a room when she walks in. So enter OM. He is not necessarily being a jerk--maybe he started just by saying, "Hey you look upset, are you okay?" and in her head she thought, "See? He notices me why doesn't my husband?" Or maybe he flirted just a little the night after you went to sleep on the couch after a fight, and she thought, "Well HE thinks I'm pretty!" It's nothing--he shows some interest in something about her, pays some attention, actually is willing to spend some time and not ignore her, maybe even does a few romantic-type gestures...and this is all building some of that Love Kindlery Feeling I asked you to remember. 

Right about THEN, your wife says to herself, "Well... what's going on here. I almost believed hubby when he said I was (insert insulting extinguisher that hurt her the most here). But OP thinks I'm pretty and worth spending time with! In fact, he's willing to (insert little romantic thing here) and hubby hasn't made that kind of effort in years!" So she sort of convinces herself that she IS lovable, that feeling good with the OP is okay (even good-blessed-etc.), and that hubby is to blame for all the bad stuff. [Now in real life hubby contributed but she did too and she's looking for ways to justify not ways to examine herself.] 

All this time hubby still is providing some of the foundational kindlers of things like a stable family and financial security, but OP provides the "infatuation" so he's meeting maybe 75% of that ONE need while hubby meets the others and also periodically still drops extinguisher bombs. 

Thus the LOVE of a committed, covenant marriage vow and the "infatuation" of a flash-in-the-pan affair really can not be compared. It's like comparing apples to oranges. The LOVE of a marriage is intimacy and I don't mean just physically. It is deeply knowing the true character and person of your spouse--likes, dislikes, emotions, how to's....all of it. The "infatuation" of an affair is more like the disloyal person wanting very badly for someone to care about them, someone shows a bit of interest, and they make a lot of the rest fantasy (for example, "they were destined to be together" "s/he completes me" "s/he understands me like no one ever has"). That's not based in reality! The LOVE of a committed, covenant marriage is based in reality. It is knowing that she rolls over and farts before getting out of bed...but finding that sort of cute because it's her. 

Now, IANTOO can you see the difference? People use the same word for the two feelings but there really should be different words because one is based on "after knowing you and living with you for decades I find these things endearing and we have these ties that bind us and memories together and thus, I choose to treat you with love" and the other is based on "I miss being loved so much that I'll apply all this traits to you even though I don't even know you--all because I feel some butterflies in my stomach for you." 

***********

P.S. and way off topic: I met my Dear Hubby over the internet. I fell in love straightaway with his mind and imagination, and to this day that is what I love about him the most. His body...shoot my body!...will eventually fade but his mind and personality can still be him. Plus even if he gets Alzheimer's and it's not his mind and personality "in there" I made a commitment to him that isn't based on a "feeling" or "butterflies" or "looks" but rather, a dedication.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thank you for that detailed explanation. You know my head is as hard as rock. 
On the divorce, separation thread (was reading it to get some insight if we atart heading that way) one of the contributors work up the Disengaged Wife theory. The idea of someone just shutting down is disturbing. Would you say this is the most frequent condition or is there a more gradual slippage? I snatched a kiss tonight when I got my gifts. I think she was caught off guard. Was that a love buster? I have been thinking about it for the last hour or so. I will be a positive friendly sort tomorrow and keep my distance.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife just called to confirm our meeting tomorrow to drop off the truck. She seemed very upbeat. Before she hung up I told her she looked great tonight. She responded, "So did you." That was unexpected and probably meaningless. But nice anyway.


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## turnera

Is this the weekend she wanted your car?


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## iamnottheonlyone

No. There has been no mention of needing the car this weekend. She drove the truck to her boyfriend's this weekend.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I met my wife at the dealership this morning. She was cordial. I was friendly. On the ride to the airport I kept the conversation going. She was responsive. We talked about our son and her job. When we got to the airport she asked me to pick her up when she comes in. I told her that was fine. I waited around to get a kiss on the cheek. (Should I have done that?)
I am feeling okay with the ride to the airport. It caused me little consternation. However, what I was thinking on the way home did. I couldn't have cared less about how she looked today. And she looked great. It is the emotional connection that has me. That bond that, for me, which grew tighter over the years, attracts me to her. I will try to maintain my neutrality and keep a level head.


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## turnera

Watching a spouse cheat on you can cause you to fall out of love with them. That's why MB recommends confronting, then exposing, then waiting for the affair to fall apart, and setting a time period after which you SEPARATE if she refuses to stop cheating. That is to protect your peace of mind and to keep you from falling completely out of love with her.


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## turnera

Are you going to expose?


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife took some things out of the truck and put them in the car while at the dealership. I pickup the bag to bring it in the house found her GPS in it. I turned it on and found a trip 137.5 miles from home. BINGO. Boyfriend's address. My friend the pilot called me about the same time and confirmed the identity of the boyfriend. He is divorced with at least 2 kids. Just as I thought. My pilot friend also told me he is flying with my wife's roommate tomorrow. He didn't know that my wife was staying at the roommates' place. He essentially said the roommate is well know on the base as a bad influence. Something I all ready new but liked to have confirmed. What now? The thought crossed my mind to take a drive and knock on the door. My friend S suggested finding a website that could provide some more details. The OP has been divorced for some time. Has he had other affairs? Has he had other substantial relationships? Or is he just a loser hanging out in the woods of New Hampshire. His place is in the middle of no where! Oh what fun!


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## turnera

I would pay for a PI to get his info, and sit down and call his exwife, his parents, and his BOSS. Mention to his boss that you're the husband of the married woman he's carrying on an affair with, and you are mulling over your legal options at the moment.

I would pay the PI to get your evidence.

I would also then be (1) asking her to stop all contact; if she refuses, then (2) calling her family and friends and telling them she's cheating and asking for their help.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am way past that. All our friends and our families know. Many tried to intervene. S ignored them. Everyone but her parents have supported me. Her parents have been incommunicado.
She is a city girl. What is she going to do in the middle of the Freaking woods? How long can she make the 271 mile round trip?
My friend S. suggested she is a Giver (never to me) and OP is a Taker. Any comments?


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## Affaircare

Just want to confirm a few facts:

1) As of today the identity of the OM is confirmed. You have the poster and the GPS...plus your pilot friend to verify. 

2) Knowing the OM's identity, you know also know that he is divorced (or divorcing?), with two kids. This means that your wife, who already is not a "giving" person will have to share time, attention and mainly MONEY with two kids and an ex-wife....in reality.

3) You also know that the OM lives effectively "rurally" at least and more like "in the woods." This means that your wife, who is a high maintenance city-girl, will have to learn to cut wood and pump water...in reality. 

I would suggest that you contact his ex-wife or stbx if you can track down her contact information. She may be an important ally--giving you a glimpse into his real character, if he's done this before, his previous MO's, and maybe his financial position and if he's in it for money or sex...etc. It may also be he's not divorced yet too! Thus you may be able to provide her with dates, times, etc and help each other out. This would give you great information and be helpful in fighting the battle.

However, I would more strongly suggest that you get contact info for the other man and send him a civil email!! I would say something like, "Hello, my name is IANTOO and I am (wife's) husband. I don't know if she told you about me, but yes we are still married and no, no papers have even been filed or anything. Before she met you, our life was not perfect but we did have a 20-year, faithful, committed marriage and I do not intend to give that up easily. I love her and understand she felt some of her needs weren't being met, but I am the one to whom she made a vow and I intend to honor my commitment to her. So I'm asking you to end this affair and tell her you will not be with a married woman."

Honestly I wouldn't add a lot more. Just be factual and make the request that he stop seeing someone who is not available--then see what he says.

P.S. Depending on the sitch here, you have exposed to friends, family, etc. but they didn't know who the OM was. If he has a "reputation" of being a bit sleezy or being a player, telling a few people his name *MAY* not be a bad move but I will leave that to your judgement.


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## turnera

One thing I saw happen is a woman did a background check on the OW; turns out she was up to her ears in lawsuits, bankruptcies, and criminal charges. Once she 'provided' that information to her husband, he ended the affair.

I agree that you should continue the exposure, and provide more details, especially to her parents. 

I also think you should cut her off financially in all ways and purposes. Do not even give her a bag of potatoes. If she wants free, give her free.


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## turnera

You also should contact their HR department. They work together, right? Pay a lawyer to send them a letter if you have to, let them know they may be in trouble if they allow this to continue at work.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife is working like a dog to make ends meet. She is burning the candle at both ends to see her boyfriend and son. She is stressing. I am going to try and find out more about the boyfriend. I could talk with the ex if I could locate her. But I think the situation is improving and contacting the OM right now is not something I want to do. If she files then I will pull the stops.


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## iamnottheonlyone

AC,

Yes 1 thru 3 are correct.

Also my confidence is building by the day. I don't have a difficult time dealing with her emotionally right now. I feel much more an equal.


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## Affaircare

...and between you and I, I'm sure you can see the affair crumbling before your eyes, even though she can't see it yet. She's a high maintenance city-girl who loves money and counts on stability. He's a player who's done this before, ruined other lives, lives in the sticks, and can't and won't fund the "fling" much less her everyday bills because he has an ex-wife and kids! 

I can see some wisdom in playing the cards you know. She needs the city and money and what they can offer. Maybe play that to your advantage and meet some love kindlers as well--the other ones are already starting to get to her through the grapevine and through life. Oh what's that? A day with you when you "surprise" her with a mani/pedi? I bet she can't get that at a rural Walmart!


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## iamnottheonlyone

That's a great !dea!
I am also reviewing your posts (and others) to try and stay on track.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I authorized the needed repair on the truck. Who pays for it? Maybe I'll offer to pay half. I did not authorize work on the truck that is optional that my wife wants. That is going to be up to her.


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## Affaircare

IANTOO~

I don't see you in Plan B (which would be no contact, utterly cut off consequences) and we do know that part of her resentment/Love Extinguisher stuff was over money. I know you can also provide her with the money she enjoys (aka Love Kindler). However, considering she is using this vehicle to transport herself to continue the affair even though it might make her angry, it would actually be ideal if she couldn't use the truck to visit her OM, huh? Also she has demonstrated that she has an entitlement attitude and she does earn a salary of $50k annually! Nothing personal but that is PLENTY of money and more than we make in two years--and we support a family of five currently. 

Thus, I would recommend that rather than just being quiet and letting the bomb-bill drop in her lap, that you either talk to her or write. Let her know that you love her, you do realize and acknowledge some of the money mistakes you made in the past, and that money would need to be something you two reach a mutual understanding on to rebuild your marriage. Then say you would be happy to pay for the truck AND MEET THAT NEED FOR HER if she's ready to end all contact with the OM, move home, give you access to all her email and cell phone etc. to verify her honesty. (Keep giving her the option do to the right thing!) However, you are not willing to pay for her to continue her adultery (and yep--call it that). So would she like to write that No Contact letter and end the affair?

Then if she has a huff and refuses to end all contact, she finances her affair.


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## turnera

PERFECT! Please follow her advice.


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## Affaircare

You KNOW when turnera and I agree, it's the thing to do! :lol: :rofl:


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## iamnottheonlyone

Well... Things turned out a little differently then expected with the truck. I picked up my wife at the airport. She was cordial. Instead of going directly to her apartment I suggested we go see our son at the camp is at for the next few days. She agreed. On the ride over she asked about the truck. I told her I authorized the needed repair but not the optional repair as I was concerned she might not be able to afford it. She didn't protest. When I told her the optional would have to get done in 3 or 4 months she said she would have to work more. Surprise! She became a bit more distant. We spent about an hour together and I did not love bust once. She said she would try to get the dealership to loan her a car so that she could drive to Maine to visit her parents. yeah. right. We know where she is going and it is not to visit mom. My friend S. suggested that she is using this explanation so that I will cooperate. She may be thinking that I would be less helpful if she revealed she was going to her boyfriend's. Nice touch. 
I am having trouble maintaining a Plan A positive attitude for hour. I can see how difficult it must be with the WS still in the home. To some degree I have it easy.
So the bottom line with the truck is I will just wait it out. Right now it doesn't appear I will pay for anything.


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## turnera

Right! Hold fast! She needs you to be strong on this, to guide her out of the fog and all the nasty effects she'll feel from the affair...such as being broke!


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## iamnottheonlyone

She just had an angry meltdown. I will explain later. We are off to see our son.


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## Affaircare

Think of it this way: she can be a tornado standing RIGHT NEXT TO YOU and that is a choice she makes (even though she blames her choices and reactions on you). Just because she is a tornado does not mean that you need to be sucked into the whirlwind with her. If she tries to fight or says things you very much want to defend, stay calm and say, "I personally don't see it that way and our opinions differ greatly." 

(See how that stands up for you and your beliefs and opinions but does not disrespect her, doesn't verbally abuse her, etc.?) 

Thoughts are with you IANTOO!


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## Affaircare

I saw this on the other thread about short term advice: 



> ...My wife said today that she has no more friends as I took them all. A friend of mine was trying to find out some background on the OP. Her sent an email to my wife's account. She was off the hook angry. She thought backing off for me meant quitting, And it doesn't. What it does mean is waitng patiently. ... One more major mistake by me and she will have nothing to do with me. Then I am moving on.


IANTOO.... *sigh* :nono:

What are the rules about listening to what the actively disloyal spouse is saying again? :rules: 

The very first rule is that everything out of a disloyal person's mouth is not to be taken "at face value" because of Disloyal Dizziness!! Remember that? So let me translate for you, okay? 

DISLOYAL DIZZINESS: My wife said today that she has no more friends as I took them all.
REALITY: They are all still her friends and love and care about her, but they disapprove of her affair. This is not YOU v. HER, but in her mind if they don't see you as the evil person she has "set you up to be" to justify her affair, then she can't be with them because they are part of reality and would remind her of what she's doing wrong. 

DISLOYAL DIZZYNESS: A friend of mine was trying to find out some background on the OP. Her sent an email to my wife's account.
REALITY: You are her spouse and she has made a vow to you to dedicate 100% of her affection and loyalty to you and only you. You two know each other intimately for decades and if anyone has the right to know about her, her actions, her activities and who she is with...its you (not the OM). This may have been an error, but it's within reason. 

DISLOYAL DIZZINESS: She was off the hook angry. 
REALITY: She is fighting mad because you aren't letting her have her affair, leaving her alone, keeping it secret, and following her disloyal "script." So rather than take personal responsibility for her own choices, or look at what she's doing wrong and stopping it--she throws a tizzy, blames you, screams and yells, and tries to get her way. It's worked for her in the past. 

DISLOYAL DIZZINESS: She thought backing off for me meant quitting, And it doesn't. 
REALITY: She thought you were agreeing to give her the space and time she needs to have her affair without interfering. She thought you were going to "go along with the program." Since you're not doing that, it can't be that she needs to look at the telephone poll in her own eye, so she's mad at you.

DISLOYAL DIZZINESS: One more major mistake by me and she will have nothing to do with me. 
REALITY: :redcard: :nono: :bsflag: :banghead: :crazy:
Um....NO! Not just no but HECK NO! In reality even if she does divorce you, you two will always be co-parents to your son and she will always be involved in at minimum a co-parenting relationship with you. So what she isn't seeing is that divorce does not "get rid of you" it just adds a whole new pile of problems--like she would have to put up with the OM's ex-wife and kids! 

Furthermore, that is a threat basically intended to try to get you "back in line" and back with the program. "Let me have my affair and don't interfere or I won't have anything to do with you." You know my response to that? *"You're right dear. Why would I want to have anything to do with someone who's committing adultery? I'm a better man than that. Thanks!"*

IANTOO--do not be fooled and do not fall for her obvious attempts to get you to back off and make her adultery comfortable. It SHOULD be uncomfortable!! Furthermore, she still has the choice to do the right thing and end it, but that won't be forever either! All of her problems could be solved RIGHT NOW if she would end contact with the other man and do what she knows is right. 

Again, I caution you--do NOT be fooled by her.


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## iamnottheonlyone

You are so right. I held my ground today. I explained to her rationally, and controlled my tone, that I wanted to find out more about him to determine if he is serious about her and not just playing her. Her response was, "It is none of your business. You shouldn't ." I said that I do care. In fact I love her and therefore am very interested in what is happening to her. We talked and talked about this. She said if I wanted to know about him I should just ask. I said okay. Tell me. She said he has been married twice. He has 5 kids, 4 at home. He lives 4 miles from his X. She said he would be very upset if he found out some one was prying into his life. I responded, "Any more than I am with him taking my wife? Who should be more upset?' So we talked around the issue of honesty. Why wasn't she honest with me about her feelings that I was not attentive enough. She said she was in pain. Maybe not as much pain as I have been in but a lot of pain. She said she tolerated my behavior with the exposure because she had hurt me so bad. Through all this I maintained my composure even with her sreeming explatives at me. I asked her, "Please don't use that kind of language." She responded that here I go again telling her what to do. I told her there was no reason to speak disrespectfully to me. She said she wouldn't talk to me or be with me at my son's events. I stayed rational and calm. She subsequently agreed to go me to the park with out my urging. She asked me to stop telling people about the affair (She used that term. What does that say?) As you know, she said she has no friends. I didn't respond.
I drove over to her place and picked her up. I said we had to continue the conversation. I had spoken to my friend S. on the drive over. I told her what he suggested. I said did she really expect the man who loves her to just back down and walk away. Or knowing me did she expect me to fight for her. Well I have fought and I am proud that I did. I made the effort I thought I should, right or wrong. She said all this exposure hurt her deeply. I said how deeply do you think I was hurt by losing a beautiful, smart, sassy woman who is the love of my life? I said this all calmly. She burst into tears. I told her I loved her and that she couldn't change that. I told her I cannot change her and I am not going to try. I can only control me and I am doing that. She said I would not listen to her. I should have stayed away from the parties. I said I did the right thing. She said that my being there hurt her. I said what difference did it make if our relationship is over? Why should she care what I do? I told her that when I was asked where she was I told people she had to work.
She is ashamed. That shame and her pride could well keep her from coming back to me when the affair ends. 
Her camera was in the center console. At a stop light I picked it up. Last time I knew it was used was at my son's prom. So I turned it on to take a look at the pictures. She grabbed the camera. I aasked why I couldn't see the pictures. She said she had taken pictures since the prom. I asked why I can't see them as she has nothing to hide and OP will be part of our relationship now. She said don't reach conclusions too quickly. I then asked where she was planning to live. She said things were getting awkward at her girlfriends. She may move up to another friend's. (He is our accountant and part of the problem. He has an open life style like the girlfriend.) After that we had a pleasant time at the camp. (I still have a Knot in my stomach.) 
Patience and the long view. NO DIVORCE!!!


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## turnera

You did really well. I'd say you have a decent chance at getting your wife back. Not 100%, but she's showing all the signs of having her affair implode on her, and you are doing all the right things. Excellent!


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## iamnottheonlyone

I met with some more friends last night that heard abour my wife's affair. They called to join them for a drink and pastry. They were very supportive. They had been shocked by my wife's behavior. They said her behavior and life style are not sustainable. It was great to see them. I am so lucky to have such great friends.
My wife called me when she came in from London today. She was snappy with me. I reviewed my son's weekend with her at the football camp. I had sent her some pictures and video while she was traveling. She was appreciative. 
My son is with his girlfriend this afternoon. My wife said she cannot stay at her grilfriend's place for the next few days. She didn't offer where she would be going. When she was saying good by she didn't end the call quickly. 
I talked to my friend, S., about this call. Was she snappy with me because she had no place to go? Was she upset over the "investigation" of her boyfriend? She didn't ask to come home and I didn't remind her that she could come home. I kept my cool throughout the conversation. Should I have asked her why she was testy? 
As wierd as it may seem, I think she hasn't been spending enough time with the boyfriend. How can she see the real world if they are not together. "Hopefully" he will let her stay with him. Doesn't that sound just plain weird...a husband who wants his wife to spend time with the OM?


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## turnera

She needs to hear from you on a consistent basis that she CAN come home - but ONLY if she lets go of OM and any other OM for the rest of her life. She needs to hear that you value yourself TOO MUCH to accept her if she seeks other men. PERIOD.

She needs to hear this from you. She needs to hear you be strong and self-confident, so she can start wondering what the hell she was trading you for.


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## iamnottheonlyone

What is a consistent basis? July doesn't look promising for a lot of contact. My son will be working 5 days a week. He and I will be in the gym most nights getting him ready for football. If my wife's roommate is tossing her then she will be 30 miles out of town. All this will stress her. More time with the boyfriend.


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## turnera

Stop thinking about what she is doing. 

Concentrate on YOUR life. YOUR interaction with your son.

Try to stop thinking about the rest of the stuff.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> I met with some more friends last night that heard abour my wife's affair. They called to join them for a drink and pastry. They were very supportive. They had been shocked by my wife's behavior. They said her behavior and life style are not sustainable. It was great to see them. I am so lucky to have such great friends.


And as you often advise others, I would suggest that you don't put your friends "in the middle" or ask for help per se. Just appreciate that they know what's going on and still ask you over and enjoy their support and encouragement. If they ask, be honest--and if they want to speak to her, they will be the type of folks who tell her about how you've changed and the good things they see about you. Otherwise, in all things just be you and be honest. 



> My wife called me when she came in from London today. She was snappy with me. I reviewed my son's weekend with her at the football camp. I had sent her some pictures and video while she was traveling. She was appreciative.
> My son is with his girlfriend this afternoon. My wife said she cannot stay at her grilfriend's place for the next few days. She didn't offer where she would be going. When she was saying good by she didn't end the call quickly.
> I talked to my friend, S., about this call. Was she snappy with me because she had no place to go? Was she upset over the "investigation" of her boyfriend? She didn't ask to come home and I didn't remind her that she could come home. I kept my cool throughout the conversation. Should I have asked her why she was testy?


Oh IANTOO, are you serious? It could have been any of a zillion reasons--she *IS* a female of the species afterall! :lol: She may have been tired from having to work so much, from worrying about money, from having nowhere to live, from realizing she's doing the wrong thing and working hard to avoid it. Or it could be she had on the wrong shoes!  Geez! 

If you are testy with me, and I don't readily see the reason why, and I'm curious--it would be my job to ask right out loud, "Hey Iam...I care and I'm just wondering why you're testy?" Likewise if you're testy and you'd like me to know why you're testy, it's your job to say right out loud, "You know what? I'm feeling testing because A, B, and C and that's not cool with me." Right? So in a healthy relationship that's how people do it. If you want to find out, ask her. I personally suggest either asking her right out or letting it go, because otherwise you are regurgitating in your mind, over and over, every little word and inflection, reading into stuff...it'll drive you nuts. Don't assume--don't try to "guess" or "figure it out." Either ask or let it go. 



> As wierd as it may seem, I think she hasn't been spending enough time with the boyfriend. How can she see the real world if they are not together. "Hopefully" he will let her stay with him. Doesn't that sound just plain weird...a husband who wants his wife to spend time with the OM?


Yeah--that's sounds weird. You're nuts man. :lol: Heehee  Just kidding around with ya! 

I understand what you mean about them not spending time together, but already (without spending that much time) she's seen that "the real world if they're together" means she loses friends, she has to work twice as hard for WAY less financial freedom, she gets less than half time with her own child, OM can not pay for her, OM has 5 kids and an ex-wife (and that is just plain complicated!), and you've made some changes that have piqued her interest. So already reality is helping her along here!  I would say if you have the option to let her know she can move home. 

It would be like this. She texts and says something about "it's awkward at GF's house..." and you jump in: "Yeah I've been thinking about that. You know there is an option open for you here at our home. I do love you and I'm willing to work on making our marriage a place where we both work on it and we are both happy and in love. So don't forget that option is there."

IN another post you ask:



> What is a consistent basis? July doesn't look promising for a lot of contact. My son will be working 5 days a week. He and I will be in the gym most nights getting him ready for football. If my wife's roommate is tossing her then she will be 30 miles out of town. All this will stress her. More time with the boyfriend.


Are you aware, IANTOO, that she does not "have to" spend time with the OM in order for the affair to implode and end? The goal is for it to end as quickly as possible, right? And if she does move in with the OM, she would fairly quickly (I think) realize that rural life is not her thing, that there is no financial support there, that he has the moral character of a slug, etc. But it's not like she has to move in there to see that--she is starting to see it now! She won't have financial support from the OM AT ALL!! They barely see each other, and when they do, he's got kids and exes and job stuff distracting him from her. 

So to answer your question "a consistent basis" would mean periodically, at a semi-regular time, there are certain messages a disloyal needs to hear over and over and over and over. 1) You can choose to do the right thing--it's not too late!--but you do need to make a choice. 2) You can come home and fix this marriage (if you turn over passwords, commit, etc.). 3) Telling the truth will be safe--it's tough and hurts, but it's safe to be honest. 4) It hurt me but I understand, and I know I hurt you. 5) We can get through this if we do it together. 

Really those are the core messages you need to communicate in "Carrot & Stick." The "consistent basis" would be in my mind that you'd say one of those five messages any time you see her or talk to her, and probably be sure those messages are told to friends, relatives, and the like too. That way, it's also communicated to her second-hand. 

Finally, I tend to agree with Turnera. I hear a LOT there about your wife, what she's thinking, what she's doing, analyzing her, and all...but not so much about IANTOO. I need you to focus on you and your Love Extinguishers. I need you to focus on changing your thought patterns and habits...and I would like to hear about you and what you did and how you felt too! 

So let's hear less about your dear wife and more about you next post.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Neither my son nor I know where my wife is. She could not stay at her girlfriend's last night and it appeared she could not go to her boyfriend's. My son only received one short test tonight. Mys wife did not respond to a later test. I was tempted to text her to ask if everything was okay. I got more than a little stressed. 
My son and I watched a movie tonight: The Book of Eli. How could this movie upset me? I began to think that I am just wasting my time. Then I thought of the steps in Plan A. I reviewed in my head the things I have learned from all of you over the past 6 weeks. Long view. Patience. I read some posts. I am feeling better and more positive. 
However, I am becoming concerned for my son. He has been giving more thought to his future and seems to flip flop over what he wants to do after HS graduation. He has been very impulsive in expressing his wants and needs for the future.


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## turnera

I have found with DD19 - who is more adult than most 19 year olds - that there is a lot of leeway for flopping around, if you let it. Her college roommate has changed majors at least 15 times just in the last year! Even this summer, she still changed her mind twice!

Your son has a LOT on his plate right now. His mom turned his world upside down by becoming an alien, and by destroying his faith in his parents as the rock of his life. That means it's up to you to dedicate yourself to him at this point. Be patient, fair, wise, strong, and understanding. Just be there for him. 

I don't know if he will, but see if you can find a way to go for walks. Or hikes, if you have a park nearby. Tell him YOU need the exercise. Walking is an awesome way to grease the conversation wheels and I suspect that right now, more than anything, he needs someone to listen to him as he digests life.

As for your wife...what can I say? She's an adult. She created this mess. Let her revel in it. It's the best thing that can happen, to open her eyes.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I had a sleepless night. It was more about thinking about my son. I was concerned  both how he is thinkng about his life and his relationship with his mom. I got up at 3 and checked his text messages and call history. He indicated to his girlfriend that he was not interested in enlisting in the marines but had a 3 hour meeitng with a recruiter. As he attends one of the best high schools in the country and has always been "college bound" this caused me great distress. As to his mom there was only two short texts from her in the evening and no phone call. He did not call her. What is going on with the two of them? He is still very angry with her. She is showing less and less interest in her son. What is this? 
So if I had called her or texted her I would have got more of the same treatment and I am sure I would have thought it was personal. She is lost in the fog. My son told me last night that he has no idea where she is.


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## turnera

I really really really wish you would get him to a therapist. PLEASE consider it. Beg him if you have to.

I've seen people throw away their entire lives, family, job, money, just to keep OM in their lives. And it is NEVER about the people they throw away, always about them. Try to help your son see that. Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? It might help him to read it.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

SLOW DOWN!! Frankly, your posts kind of mirror my thinking/actions early on in my separation and H's affair. Some day I might post our situtation (really don't fell like rehashing all that right now), but listen to me.....

1) The more I focused on what I needed to do, the more I changed. 

2) When I decided to focus LESS on him, the result has been so much healthier and productive.

3) My son is 16 and goes in cycles as far as wanting to have contact with his dad. It bothers my husband now more than my son (of course, the affair is over and he is lonely now.)

4) My daughter is 19 and is all over the place. They typically are supposed to the independent, reckless, serious and crazy all at the same time. It is frustrating for an adult to watch, but very normal. 

5) I've watched a young man grow up and become a MAN is a short amount of time because of his decision to enlist in the Marines. Not for everyone, but not all bad. Watching this young man changed my perspective on the Marines.

Now as I said in an earlier post, it has been almost 10 months since H moved out. Affair ended two months ago (lasted two months) and he now knows she wanted one thing ($$$ - duh!) and he was used.

His lease runs 5 more months and very expensive to break. Good thing as we both have a little more time to see changes in each other (he has a long way to go.) But, now after waiting so long to hear it, he wants this to work out for us. Don't know how it will play out - not 100% sure he "gets it".

Please try not to consume your day with her actions/thoughts etc. I did early on, and it is a big waste of time. Sorry for the poor grammar, but I'm in a hurry (off to get a pedicure for the 4th - OK to be about ME right now!)

Have a nice day - all about YOU and your son!!


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am hoping one of my friend's might act as a mentor for my son. It is difficult for a teenage boy to open up to his dad. Plus he has not interest in talking about MY/OUR problems. I am working on the family love bank with him and trying to stay away from family love busters. 
I am concerned about therapy for my son. Wouldn't a therapist work on getting him to accept my wife's situation? She would love that. Personally, I would agree with that if we were further along. I told her last week I did not want her to have our son meet OP. She said she wanted that to happen. I told her that that was a bad idea. 
On to another topic. It is frequently mentioned that the BS needs to take their focus off the WS and work on themselves. It is a paradox that we are on this site because we are so focused on WW. If we were adjusted in that way it is unlikely we would be posting.
Lately I have found that the best way to reduce my stress when the thoughts of unlikely reunion or thoughts of our mistakes swamp me is to think about what would be the worse thing to happen now. Divorce. I stress in my mind to be positive. My thoughts are avoid the filing of divorce. Be nice, nice, nice,


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## turnera

Well, from my experience, the therapist would be the safe place for him to go to express how he's feeling. Not necessarily how to fix things or accept them, but to be heard. Maybe you could suggest to him that he start a blog? Just writing about it can relieve a lot of tension.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

I see this site differently. It is a place to get you emotionally back on track without excessive conversation with friends/family/neighbors, etc. Also, I have gained perspective in others' journey. Just my 2 cents...


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## iamnottheonlyone

I just wanted to clarify the enlistment issue. I have never been opposed to my son joining the military. It is just not as an enlisted man. We have talked about the military academies for years. However his grades are not there and he doesn' like the idea of a 12 year commitment. He is not interested on ROTC (today). And doesn't think much of OCS after college. 
He wouldn't let me go with him to the recruiter's. I told him that the recruiter was a salesman and that he shouldn't be talked into buying anything. My son was impressed by the recruiter. Although he told me I should listen to the recruiter's pitsh I told him I would not. He said he would ask his mother to go with him. Later last night he texted his girlfriend that he wasn't interested in joining the marines.
Last week my son was interested in college. This weekend he was thinking of a PG year which he had previously totally rejected. Now we have the I could go to college while I am in the military. His head must be spinning.
So I called my son's doctor's office a few minutes ago and set up an appointment for his annual physical. I left a message for his doctor that this is really about the stress that he is showing due to our separation and that I wanted to talk to him before the appointment.
We were going to go the Gym tonight, but I asked him this morning if there might be sometime to see his girlfriend today. He wants to see her today. I will drive him over after he finishes work.
I just spoke to my son's doctor. I explained the situation. He thought it was best to discuss the issue of separation issues with him up front. I am not comfortable with that. But I will do that if he (and you folks) think that is the way to go.


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## turnera

Oh, HECK yeah! As old as he is, he needs to be in on everything. He needs to hear the total, honest truth about what's going on - including how you are feeling. Let him know that he is NOT responsible for anything and is NOT expected to do anything - that's for the adults. I thought you had been telling him all this all along. No wonder his head is spinning; he's outside the window, looking in. Go for a walk and talk about it, ok?


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

I agree with turnera. My kids knew/know almost everything from the start. Then they are not left to wonder and guess. Exceptions for me were things like my affidavit for court, the fact I filed on the basis of physical separation AND adultery, certain financial aspects, etc. I have tried to protect them from some of the ugliness, but they are not 6 & 9. They know about the OW in some detail, and my feelings about the entire situation. 

He will talk when he wants to if you give him a "casual" opportunity - no big "we need to talk."

Your son will benefit from your honesty. Always remind him you and her both love him. Sure she needs to show him that (which she isn't to any great degree right now), but you take the higher road. He'll remember it forever...


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## Affaircare

IANTOO~

A couple of things okay? Your son is not an infant, nor a "child" in that he's old enough to see what's going on, put two and two together, have a girlfriend or two, and know that being in a relationship takes some work. He is NOT quite old enough to understand all the ins-and-out of marriage, commitment to that level, and intimacy that lasts over decades. As a young man though, he is going to have thoughts and feelings about what's going on and it's not like one of your guy-friends could really talk to him and know all the details like you two do. 

I would strongly suggest speaking to him and not a big "we need to talk" but more like during the course of your day and your life, pick moments to insert topics that have to do with what's going on--to give him room to express himself. As an example, start chit chatting about Sandra Bullock and Jesse James breaking up over infidelity while you lift weights. Or shoot, just ask him right out, "Hey I don't know about you but I find this whole affair thing exhausting! I don't sleep at nights worrying sometimes--how about you?" Let him know what you are going through (in an age-appropriate way) and then give him the chance to say "Yeah me too!"

Regarding his mom, I can only say that both my exH and my Dear Hubby's exW basically did what your wife is doing--they completely left the kids and walked away from everything in order to pursue the other person. Both of them were dumped by the OP in due course and then had nothing. My exH made the effort to rebuild somewhat with the kids; Dear Hubby's ex has not made that effort yet... and yes, the kids DO notice and it DOES hurt them. What can we do? We can't "MAKE" them be good parents! We personally have taken the tactic of teaching the kids how to speak up for themselves, how to have the tools to deal with the hurt, how to be honest to their mom, etc. No kid WANTS to tell their mom "Hey you're hurting me" because kids tend to look up to their parent--but in this case that's what they need to learn how to do. So rather than "protect them" or pretend it's okay... we teach them how to deal with it. 



> On to another topic. It is frequently mentioned that the BS needs to take their focus off the WS and work on themselves. It is a paradox that we are on this site because we are so focused on WW. If we were adjusted in that way it is unlikely we would be posting.


Well actually, IANTOO, think about this for a second. If you sit and snoop and analyze your Disloyal Wife's (DW) every move and word and inflection...you are obsessing and that is not productive for you as a human being or for the marriage. It does not benefit you or help you learn new habits or grow in maturity, and it does not benefit the marriage, kindle more love, or end extinguishers. It's just fixation and on someone who's not exactly at their best right now. 

Thus, while in "Carrot & Stick/Plan A" your goal is not to be "nice, nice, nice" or to enable the affair. Your goal is to get honest with yourself and say, "I did commit these Love Extinguishers (Love Busters)" and then keep your focus on ending those actions. Do you need to go to counseling? Go to a group? Read a book? Keep your focus on changing you and your habits and your thoughts and your patterns. If you obsess about your disloyal, who is acting out of fog and dizziness, you will also be dizzy and all over the place. If you focus on you and what you're supposed to be doing (being stable, steady, dependable, gentle, understanding, firm, strong, honest...) that is enough! 



> Lately I have found that the best way to reduce my stress when the thoughts of unlikely reunion or thoughts of our mistakes swamp me is to think about what would be the worse thing to happen now. Divorce. I stress in my mind to be positive. My thoughts are avoid the filing of divorce. Be nice, nice, nice


Tanelorn and I do something similar too. It's called "Worst Case Scenario" and we try to play it like a game. When we notice that something is just completely gnawing at us, we'll play "Worst Case Scenario" and come up with ideas about what would be the worst possible thing that could happen? The first couple guesses are real and we sort of ask ourselves "Could I survive that? Shoot I've already survived far worse!" Then the next couple guesses are WILD exaggerations--the more far-fetched and mind boggling the better, especially if it includes science fiction in some way  The second guesses are mostly meant as stress relief and to add a laugh in a nervous situation. 

So IANTOO, your goal here isn't to be so nice that you suck up to your Disloyal Wife. Your goal is to begin the process of letting her worry about her, and you begin to learn how to keep your life on track. Learn how to keep your finances in good shape. Return to a spiritual life if you are so inclined. Spend more Family time and get that portion of your life in shape. Get it?


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## iamnottheonlyone

Yeah. I get it. Most days my thoughts of her are only background noise. Today, with my son's issues, the radio is a little louder. 
I have tried to mention things like this to him. He doesn't want to hear it. Even last night when I asked if his mom called him, he was annoyed. I think my wife has told him that I should not be talking about any of this to him So it makes him uncomfortable. I have tried the tangential talk. That is better.


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## turnera

That's why going for walks is good. You HAVE to talk about SOMETHING. Plus you aren't facing each other, so the uncomfortableness is gone.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I do like that idea. Unfortunately, I can't get him to do that. However, I can get himto go golfing. We talk alot when we do that. Thanks for the idea.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I spent most of yesterday working at home. It led to a relatively stress filled day (and night). There was no contact the last two days. I had to text her this morning about one of her bills. There was no reply. I only mentioned the bill in the text. I thought about doing nothing about the bill but she wouldn't have known about the problem and it would have cost her a lot for a violation.
I am feeling better this morning.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

You did the "right thing" regarding the bill. Always take the high road and you will sleep well. Good job for only mentioning the bill and nothing else. Wishes for a good day..


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## iamnottheonlyone

Another day without contact. Okay by me. She needs to be immersed in the presence of the OM. She rang me but I didn't catch the call. No message was left so I didn't call back. 
The weekend should be interesting. My sister-in-law has a party for our nephew Saturday. My wife told my son that she might come if she doesn't get a trip. She has been working more this month than she ever has. 
My son and I are invited to his girlfriend's for the 4th for a BBQ. I am certain WW won't be there. 
My son and I discussed my wife's desire to have my son meet OM. My son said that won't happen. My son said OM is immoral and not worthy. He said he will have nothing to do with OM. Did I raise my boy right?
We went to the gym today and worked out together. More male bonding.
I am sitting here scratching my head. How did I end up in this predicament (rhetorical question)? It still boggles my mind.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I have a new morning routine. First thing I do is turn on the computer and read the threads from over night. I had a good day today starting with last night's threads. 
Some of you may know I bought a bunch of "His Needs, Her Needs" and gifted them to my best friends. I have had incredible feedback as a result. You already know it has had an incredible impact on my friend ,S., (and his relationship with his wife AND kids.) One friend texted me from bed in the morning saying her husband just read the first chapter outloud to her. She changed her profile picture on Facebook from just her to the both of them. Another friend did the same. 
No contact with my wife today. She did briefly talk to my son last night. 
It is a gorgeous summer night. I made myself a ****tail and am sitting on the deck enjoying the evening. I raise my glass to all of you for your open hearts and generous spirits. You never had to help me. But you did. I will forever appreciate you.


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## turnera

sniff

I wish you the best of luck, iam. No matter what happens, YOU are a better person. You could have gone through the whole rest of your life without ever coming to the realizations you've had, oblivious to a more fulfilling life (and look at all the people you've helped!).


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## iamnottheonlyone

If mywife shows up at the family gathering this weekend how should I interact? I don't think she will show, but just in case I would like to have a plan to retain/maintain my composure. 
I knew this no contact period would be coming and I have been handling it well. The urge to reach out to her is minimal. I am resisting that natural response to contact her.
My friend, S., and I talked about how it seems that most of these affairs end with the OP drifting away. The WW tries to hold it together. As the OP comes into the affair with less baggage, the fact that the WW jumps in with both feet may place more stress on the relationship. The WW wants to be with the OP all the time. The OP has things to do. The OP's life is not disrupted by the affair until OP has to deal with WW everyday as a committed relationship. WW lives in the fantasy. OP is grounded in the real world. Does that make sense?
No contact for 5 days. She never dropped by to get her stuff.
It crossed my mind last night to take ALL her stuff and store it. S. said that would be a bad thing. Love buster all the way. I am not inclined to do that.
If she does get her own place in the coming weeks, should I volunteer to help her move?


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## turnera

No, don't volunteer. That's facilitating the affair. I've seen lots of BS's pack up their WS's belongings and just store them in the garage; that's helping them a little, I guess, but it's more for relieving you of the stress of having to see her stuff every day.

If she shows up, act cordial and polite, like you would any other relative; for now, that's all she is. Let her feel the sting of you distancing yourself. And if the subject of her affair happens to come up (I doubt it will, but you never know), do NOT lie about it. Admit it matter of factly and make it CLEAR that is why you are split up. Say it to her face, if she's there when someone is talking about it. "WS chose to enter into an affair, so we are now living separately." That is the TRUTH. That is not vindictive. There would be no 'truth' to talk about if not for her actions.

You're right about how when you leave her to carry on the affair it often implodes. OM likely just wanted easy sex, and married unhappy women, as I'm sure you know by now, are the easiest. So he likely had NO intention of providing ANY EN except for sex. The talking was just to GET TO the sex. That's why Plan B can be so effective; you cut yourself off from her completely so that she has no choice but to turn to OM to get her other ENs like stability, financial support, domestic help, conversation...what sleazy OM wants to be all THAT for some woman he suckered in? By you still being in Plan A, if he won't do that, she can still waffle between the two of you and still get all her needs met. Once you give up and go to Plan B, there is SOME chance the affair will implode sooner.


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## Tanelornpete

> It crossed my mind last night to take ALL her stuff and store it. S. said that would be a bad thing. Love buster all the way. I am not inclined to do that.
> If she does get her own place in the coming weeks, should I volunteer to help her move?


I don't agree that packing her stuff up and storing it is a Love Buster. In fact, in the end, it could even be the opposite. We often make the mistake of thinking that if we make the Wandering Spouse angry, we are Love Busting - and we need to avoid that at all costs. 

But a lot of that anger is based upon the twisted opinion that you ought to be helping them have an affair, instead of objecting to it. You make them mad by simply not wanting them to have an affair. Would you consider that a Love Buster? 

Instead, I think it shows a lot of strength, and a desire to protect the family, which are things that are noticed by the Disloyal - even if they don't admit it right away. 

One thing that I've seen that is very effective is to take ALL the Disloyal Spouses belongings, move them to a storage locker, pay for one month, and then give them the key. They have the choice of retrieving their stuff, of paying for storage from then on, or losing it. That saves you the pain of watching your house be torn apart as the stuff is removed. 

In my own personal experience, when my ex-wife left, she waited until I was at work, and then would come over with friends and remove stuff. They are not neat about it either, they ransacked the place - when I would come home from work, there would be stuff laying all over the place - it looked as if I had been robbed. Indeed, I had - they took pretty much everything over a period of time. I hadn't learned yet how to protect myself, so I thought I had to go along with what was happening.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife "snuck" in a few weeks ago and took her summer things. My son suggested changing the locks.


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## turnera

Shoot yeah! If she wants back in, she'll just have to be nice to you.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

I changed the locks the day my husband was served separation papers. Legally they still are on the deed, and unless you are eventually given temporary/permanent possesion as I was, they can raise a fuss legally. I doubt many do that. I would give my H only controlled access, but never said he couldn't get things that were his at my convenience. I decided if she had access to my H, she had access to my house and I wasn't going to put up with that! I have several friends who changed the locks the day their spouse walked out.

PS-He and I are going to a minor league ballgame tonight (Red Sox affiliate!) Third "date" in a week. He wants to come home. How the tides have turned. Keep the faith. Remember, it has been 10 months for me....


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## Affaircare

You know, each state has different laws on changing the locks but to be honest I did too. My case was a bit different in that my exH was physically abusive and I had a restraining order because he had a habit of just walking in whenever he wanted (no concept of "if you leave that means it's not yours anymore). Once I woke up and he was sitting at the foot of the bed and said, "I just wanted you to know I can get in any time." (SCARY!) Another time I came back from a movie or something and there were holes in the walls. He took a sledgehammer and hit a huge hole in each wall "so you don't get a profit from selling the house." Now bear in mind, my exH has diagnosed mental health issues so that's pretty extreme! And my restraining order gave me exclusive possession and residency of the marital home. 

The point is that it seems to me it would be very reasonable to pack her things, put them in the garage to which she has full access (her things are not "held hostage" and she has no need to go into the house), and change the locks to the rest of the house so she can not just "waltz in." She would have complete access to the property whenever she arranges to do so when you are present. 

HOWEVER, before you do it--go for that motion of exclusive possession and residence. Every state is different but most do recognize "exclusive residency" which is fancy lawyer talk for "she/he moved out and even though their name is on the deed, I live here exclusively now." Usually there are some stipulations like having the spouse able to walk in would cause stress or spouse has established residence elsewhere--stuff like that. So PM me with your state and I can look it up or shoot you can too!


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## iamnottheonlyone

I really need some help here. I want to do the right thing. 
My sister-in-law's party is set for tomorrow. My son and I have been planning to take his girlfriend with us. I got a voicemail late last night that my wife expected my son and his GF to go with her and me not to be there. She said she told my son this. She never told me. She said she expected me not to go because I got to go to the other party. Will I do more damage? She will have many family members there that we haven't seen in some time.
What should I do? What should I say?
I plan on going. I plan to tell her she is welcome to come. Separately or together.


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## turnera

Of course you should go. If she talks to you about it, all you have to says is "Son and gf want me to go with them, so I am going with them. And I am looking forward to seeing SIL and the rest of the family. You can come with us, if you want." 

Then DROP IT.

She has NO control over who you do or don't see unless she has a restraining order, ok?


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

She is feeling uncomfortable and left out. GO!!


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## iamnottheonlyone

We just talked. My W really did not oppose me going to the party. We did discuss the balance of the weekend. She would like to see our son on Monday. He is giving her a hard time. My son and I are invited to a cookout with mutual friends". I told her about it and she got snappy tone in her voice. We agreed to meet this afternoon. I thought about that tone for a bit. It was disrepectful. I thought about the need to stand up for these slights. I called her back. She did not answer. I left a message. I was calm and respectful saying that I did not appreciate the tone in her voice . That I do not speak to her that way and that going forward I expect to be treated and spoken to respectfully.


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## turnera

Awesome!


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> We just talked. My W really did not oppose me going to the party. We did discuss the balance of the weekend. She would like to see our son on Monday. He is giving her a hard time.


...AND he has the right to do so. He had a mom and dad at home loving him who cared more about him than their own fleeting, selfish happiness. The fact that he's mad over her behavior and choices is a GOOD thing. It is the "Stick" part of Plan A/Carrot & Stick: Choosing to continue the affair will COST HER SOMETHING SHE HOLDS PRECIOUS. Sooooo...is the OM who has 4-5 kids of his own and doesn't give a rip about her own child *worth* destroying a good, close, loving relationship with her son? Do you honestly think he's not KEENLY aware of the fact that his own mother is choosing to dump him? OH HECK YEAH he has a right to be mad, give her a hard time, and explain it to her that he is way less than pleased at her choices! Hopefully she'll learn fast enough to not utterly destroy the relationship. 



> My son and I are invited to a cookout with mutual friends". I told her about it and she got snappy tone in her voice. We agreed to meet this afternoon. I thought about that tone for a bit. It was disrepectful. I thought about the need to stand up for these slights. I called her back. She did not answer. I left a message. I was calm and respectful saying that I did not appreciate the tone in her voice . That I do not speak to her that way and that going forward I expect to be treated and spoken to respectfully.


Well done indeed. The fact that you two have a life despite her antics and the fact that you have a social life and the fact that you make plans without her...are directly a cause of her choosing to leave you! DUH! :slap: So if she wants to be included in your social life and plans, all she has to do is choose to do the right thing, honor her commitment and vow, and end the affair. SIMPLE. Otherwise I'm with you. Next time she pulls "that snappy tone" I'd say "Please speak to me with respect or I will choose to not continue this conversation. I no longer choose to accept that kind of attitude and treatment in my life." If she continues, walk away. You respectfully requested and no longer have any obligation to put up with that kind of treatment.

(NOTE TO SELF: You don't have an obligation to put up with it when you're married and living together either, but that's for another day, huh?  ) 

That will likely make her mad but also a little bit


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## iamnottheonlyone

How can I best describe today's party?...uneventful. My wife was pleasant. I behaved my self as a Plan A guy should. When talking in a group, it was my impression she spent most of her time looking at me. I certainly paid attention to her. Kissed on the cheek when we met, on the lips (peck) when we left. No lost ground today. 
She talked about selling the truck. However, her credit stinks. I doubt she could finance a new vehicle. I figured this would happen as she can't afford that tank of gas to drive up north to see her boyfriend. 
How do spell "Consequences"?
Noone mentioned a thing. I tried to privately engage my father-in-law. He would have nothing to do with talking about it.


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## Affaircare

Sadly, Iam, not all parents have the raw courage to tell their child, "What you're doing is wrong and I will not support you in doing this to your family." My own M-I-L adopted the "we won't get involved in that sort of thing" attitude which is defacto approval. *sigh* Well blood is thicker than water and sometimes parents would rather cling to any sort of relationship, rather than taking the risk of pissing off their child. 

In the end, if she is hard-headed and stubborn, SHE will stay his daughter and "that guy" may be someone who's around her.


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## iamnottheonlyone

It was such an ordinary night with my wife I am wondering if she actually thinks I have given up on her?


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## turnera

What is your mission?

To IGNORE what your wife is doing or thinking, and FOCUS on yourself. 

Got it?


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## Affaircare

turnera said:


> What is your mission?
> 
> To IGNORE what your wife is doing or thinking, and FOCUS on yourself.
> 
> Got it?


*QFT* (quoted for truth)

Since disloyal spouses are dizzy, it's really hard to think what they are and are not thinking...and why! Trying to figure that out would drive you nuts. 

This is why we try to keep you focused on doing what you need to do. Have you ended all Lovebusters/Love Extinguishers? Which one do you think you might need to work on? Which one is a life-time weakness for you? 

_I tend to be a Scorekeeper--which means I compare who is doing which chores and putting how much into the relationship and resenting it--and have Independent Behavior--which means I do my own thing and don't take my spouse into consideration when it will affect him too. These are things I have to be aware of and stay "on guard" for the life-time most likely._​
What is your weak spot where you're most likely vulnerable to an affair? 

_I tend to be a sucker for Admiration/Appreciation. When someone not only notices what I did but also takes the time to say thank you and likes it! :smthumbup: WOW YAY I am thrilled. I also am vulnerable to attention._​
These are the things to focus on in your Plan A ... and being sure to use opportunities that present themselves to let your wife know you are still willing to work together on the marriage and make it loving for both of you, if she would like to come home. The requirement is: end the affair. You can even help her do that! But she has to be willing to end it, let you verify her honesty, and work on her issues too.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I had a great time at our mutual friend's 4th party yeaterday. My wife seemed testy on the 3rd when I mentioned I was going. Our friends just don't get it. They feel abandoned. 
My wife had to wiggle her way into my son's day yesterday. I called her in the evening as my son didn't answer his phone and I needed to check on him. She was pleasant. For the first time in two weeks before I hung up the phone I said "Love You", she said "love you too". I know it means nothing. I am not reading the tea leaves. But I know she's thinking. I will not call her this week. "cmf" leads the way.


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## Affaircare

Iam~

I have an idea and I'm not sure, but what do you think? 

I agree with you--it is most likely fairly clear to her that this affair is not sustainable as a real relationship. He has several kids and an ex, lives rurally, she can't afford to drive to him and he can't afford to contribute to her financially. YOU on the other hand have her son, no exes or complications of that sort, live urbanly, and although she's abused it some you CAN and DO contribute to her financially, emotionally, socially, spiritually, etc. She's a smart lady--even with all the OM's sweet words, she's noticing she can't have friends or a social life because of him... 

...and you mentioned that you said "I love you" before you said goodbye and she replied with "Love you too" Yeah its a habit and all but still it's a glimmer of hope. 

I wonder if it would do some good to send her a card right now; actually mail it. Not something UTTERLY romantic, but yeah with some loving thoughts in it and then keep it simple: "Wanted you to know I was thinking of you today and missing the beautiful woman you are. I do love you. ~Signed, Iam" 

It might be a good Love Kindler move...what do you think?


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## iamnottheonlyone

I would do that at a drop of a hat. I am a romantic sort of guy. But I don't even know where she lives. OH!! I can mail it to her at our house as she still comes by to pick up her mail. That's kind of corny. But what the heck! Sure. I'll do it.


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## sparkle4

It has taken me a while but I have finally caught up on your story. Good for you, for having a good time at the 4th party. Your story is inspiring and I will jump on the wagon of not calling with you and cmf.


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## iamnottheonlyone

To my wife: The Dream of the Robin's Egg.
Some nights you have dreams that you never remember. Last night's dream, I just recalled.
In real life I have a robin's egg. It sits in a planter in the kitchen. I see it every morning. It is a beautiful blue hue. I water the plant almost daily. I admire the tiny blue egg when I water the plant. The plant grows. The egg remains unchanged.
I found the egg one day while golfing. It was windy the night before. I suspect a violent gust blew the egg from its nest. It sat undamaged on a tuft of grass. I announced my discovery to my companions. Glently, I wrapped it in a towel and placed it in my bag. I was certain that the unshattered shell contained a tiny living creature. My thought was to try and save it.
I brought it home. I showed it to you. We both found it intriguing. Could I save the robin?
I went on line to research possibilities. I learned about incubation. I checked for incubators. I thought about designing my own with bulb and box. I fussed and fretted. Ultimately, I did nothing. Some time during that week of only mental activity, the robin surely died. I never did what needed to be done to save the robin. 
If I took the egg out into the park and placed it on a tuft of grass, surely passersby who would see it would be convinced it held an unborn robin waiting to hatch. It is a marvelous shell. But that baby robin will never have a second chance at life.
You are probably thinking, "Why bring this up now?" Well, because I dreamed of a robin' s egg last night. In my dream we found it together. We were excited with our discovery. As dreams go, it had its typical incongruities. We took the egg home and cared for it. We worried that once it hatched, the tiny spirit within would be difficult to care for. But we were determined. There was no incubator. We took turns warming the egg in our hands for days (moments in my dream). Then it hatched. A helpless tiny creature in your hand. We agreed to nuture it with all the love we could muster. I awoke. 
Will you help me care for the robin?


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## iamnottheonlyone

Now that I know who the OM is should I contact him?


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## turnera

I would contact his FAMILY and tell them what he is doing.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Now that I know who the OM is should I contact him?


You know, Iam, this is a bit of a toughie, and here's why. If you want to have your fist contact his jaw--I'd say no. And that is not an unusual way to want to "contact" the other man (giggle). The trouble is that your disloyal wife (DW) already has you cast in the role of "the bad guy" and if you two were to get in a skuffle who do you suppose she'd see as noble? It's not you. PLUS one or both of you could end up with an arrest and assault record and that's not cool. 

So honestly if it would turn into a pissing match like that, I would advise against contacting him. 

On the other hand, if you want to write him a letter or an email like my Dear Hubby did, that might be appropriate. I'll ask Dear Hubby to post basically what he said, but in effect it was something like, "Hi, I'm not sure if you know this or not but AC is married and I am her husband. I'm contacting you today to let you know that I made a vow to her to love her until death parted us and I meant it, so I don't intend to just give up on her or on us, and I intend to fight for our marriage." Now he may be a jerk and say "Well if that's what SHE wants I'll bow out" but he may also say "I already have 5 kids and an ex and I don't need this hassle too!"

She will likely be furious... but that's about 90% because you cut off the supply of her addiction and 10% out of embarrassment over being caught red-handed so to speak. As she gets out of withdrawal she'll likely see things differently but for now, be ready for it. 

And naturally turnera's advice would work too if that would be effective.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I have become fixated today on this issue. And I do want ot bust his jaw. Not a bad idea. But foolish. I think I just needed to get it out of my system. If there is a bad turn in the next month or so I will contact his family and friends and let him know what a scumbag he is. But that would be more vengence then anything else. I would like to think I am better than that.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

You know what stopped me from contacting the OW? At the time I was considering it, I was unsure if there was a pursuer in their relationship but IF she was pursuing my H, she could invent all sorts of stuff if I had any contact with her. Like "she said I could have you", "she said she found someone else,too", "she said you are a lazy slob", "she said she's wanted out for years" etc. Get my drift? Any contact, especially face-to-face, could become a he said - he said kind of thing. 

Just something to think about....


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife called my son a few minutes ago. He was not engaged. After he finished talking I asked him if they made any plans. He said no. I asked him where she was. He said he didn't ask. So much for the good mother. I tell you that really ticks me off.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I have not heard from my wife in 4 days. Is this a good Plan A?


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## turnera

You can be creative and find other ways to meet her needs without contacting her. Pay a bill for her. Fix something that needed fixing. Do something with/for your son that she will hear about. Visit mutual friends and do something nice for them. She will hear.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Yes my wife continues to follow the script. She seems to be spending more time with the boyfriend now that they have entered the real world.
My son's girlfriend's mom and I talked tonight. She says my son is very angry with my wife. He feels abandoned. He thinks she is spending more time with the boyfriend's kids then him. She lied to him last week about where she was. She told him she was working a Paris trip and then called him from a New Hampshire phone number. As self-centered as I have been, I thought his pain was for me. But it is compounded by his personal pain of losing his mom.
If she follows the script then at some point in the coming weeks or months she will see the pain she has caused and reevaluate. Recently in a coulpe other threads we have heard the WS finally come around and say this is just not worth it. 
What else should I expect right now? I have not called. She has not called. When she called my son to tell him she was going to London, she asked what he was up to. He told her we were off to a special showing of the Sorcerer's Apprentice with a bunch of friends. (Great movie. It was a lot of fun.) Consequences?
I was really mad tonight with her after talking with GF's mom. I was thinking how this affair may/will affect how my son views his relationships and commitments. What he thinks about women and honesty and trustworthiness. I really don't want to tell him to sleep with one eye open and his boots on. But maybe I should. From now on I certainly will.
I would love to break that A..hole's jaw for what he has done to my son.


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## cmf

I dont know if this will help or not, but I had to encourage my son to tell his father how he is truly feeling about him leaving and spending more time with the OW and her child. My son has been trying to spare my H's feelings by pretending everything is fine . My H is more than happy to beleive it has no effect on the children because they never say anything to him directly. I explained to my son that by being honest with his feelings it may help his father make better choices. My son is slowly starting to be more honest about his feelings. It does make one want to physically harm the WS and OP for the pain they cause the innocent children. Beleive me, in a few moments of weakness over the past 8 months I have let my H have it for hurting the children.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am holding up okay. But I am struggling with my attempt at no contact. This isn't a Plan B no contact. It is a "I am not needy" no contact. Was ther a period of time that you (or anyone else out there) remained quiet for a week or so? How did contact resume? I knew this time would be coming so I had weeks to prepare. This is my wife's reserve month. She only goes out on a trip when some one doesn't show for work. It is likely she will barely work this month. (But she gets paid) She has much free time to spend with her boyfriend and son. She has chosen the boyfriend.


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## cmf

I definetly went through a period like that. It lasted close to 2 months- with only minimal contact related to the children. This period started for me after finding out about the other woman and having a huge fight with my H. Now, during that period I had him served with a support and custody complaint and started legal action so things were very tense. My H broke the silence finally by calling me one day at work- I'm sure your wife will contact you at some point( it probably is driving her crazy not to hear from you when she is used to you checking in on her). She has chosen the boyfriend for now, but all that time together will allow reality to set in- I'm sure he will not like having her needy with him, and she will not like sharing him with ex-wife and kids. Her ego is probably expecting you to chase after her too.


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## jar

The no contact thing is tough. I have stuck to my guns and have not contacted her for any reason...At this point I find my wife texting me once every few days to tell me something that she thinks is important. It never is anything important that I need to know. I usually respond with something like thanks for the update.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thanks for the support. It is fabulous to have you there to lean on. (If you don't mind?)


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## iamnottheonlyone

My son and I bought a new video game system tonight. If I can learn how to paly we should enjoy the time together. The problem is he is a great player and I stink. I am not much competition. 
I have also added another item to my skill set. I have taken up the guitar. I have been practicing every day for the last 6 weeks.


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## BigB

I have been following your thread from afar and I admire your courage and integrity. I have just a few words to add to what all my wise friends have already told you. It has been said that the best revenge is living well. I know that you are not seeking revenge but just concentrate on living well. It will go a long way in making people realize that you are a balanced person who dreams only of a normal life. 
You wife, sadly, has made a life that does not include you and even excludes your son to a large extent. I suggest you do the same with her and concentrate on your son. Protect your assets and the biggest asset you have is not your house or 401(k) or bank balance - it is your son. I hope your son realizes what a great father he has. All that matters in this world is how satisfied we are with our lives when we are old and have the time to reflect back on what we did or said in the journey of our life. Concentrate on that. 
Now that you are playing the guitar, practice playing "My Way" by Blue Eyes, it is the best medicine for people going through difficult choices. All the Best.


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## cmf

I stink at video games too,but my sons love them and I have been learning to play for them ( their father used to share this with them). My boys' therapist told me that they think the world of me and that helps me through the tough times. I'm positive your son feels the same about you.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am going to need a lot of practice...and patience.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I didn't expect to speak to my wife for some time. I have taken the position to let the affair playout/burnout and see if we could reunite later. She called looking to talk to our son. We were walking in the house with grocerries. I invited her to dinner. She said she had stuff to do. She just texted me saying she really wanted to talk to me privately tonight without our son in hearing range. Where is this going? I just spoke to my friend S. He said insist on letting her do her own thing. Find herself. He said there is no need to rush. Any other suggestions? I can use what ever you have. I am thinking negative here!


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## Affaircare

(from Jar's thread)



> ...Sorry... Jumping to me. Wife just called looking for my son (who couldn't answer his phone as he was carrying groceries) We made small talk and I gave the phone to him. That was that. Five minutes ago she texted me that she really wanted to talk to me tonight without our son around. Sounds bad. I need strength. I told her I would call her in an hour. I had an adult beverage between the phone call and the text. I was okay with the phone call. Not okay with the text. So I can speculate. 1-moving in with boyfriend. 2- want a divorce. I don't care about the moving in part as much as the divorce. I DON'T TALK DIVORCE. Any help? I have an hour or so.


IAM, in real life you don't know what she wants to talk to you about--it's pure speculation at this point. It could be anything from "I want a divorce" to "I want to come home--I'm sick of this." So please do not work yourself into a tizzy okay? As much as you can, remain neutral--somewhat skeptical maybe--and alert.

However, there is nothing on this planet that she can talk to you about tonight that will change your course or your plan. If she is moving in with boyfriend, stay the course. Continue with Plan A and in this case that would mean ending all Love Extinguishers (actions you did that extinguished love in her), where possible do a Love Kindler (meet a need for her), and do nothing to enable the affair. If she is moving in, you will not be paying her rent etc. You get the drift already, right? If she wants to talk divorce--actually that can be a good thing because you have an opportunity to tell her that you still love her, you want to keep your commitment to her, you understand that some things hurt her and she has some things she has to work through. You have a GREAT opening to show that you understand WHY she was vulnerable and don't blame her even now...and that whilst she's done some things that have hurt you too, that even now she's welcome to come home and return to her family [if she would have No Contact, and give you access for transparency, and commit to working on this TOGETHER...both of you]. 

Even if she says she is insistent on divorce, you can tell her that you do not agree and would not cooperate with a divorce. You can stay calm and just say, "I'm sorry but I disagree and so I won't be helping with that at all." Don't tell her, but there are ALL KINDS of ways to stall a divorce, even if she were to do all the work to file and have you served (which is unlikely because she wants to make you the bad guy so she has to get you to file). You can suggest separating with an agreement you two write and just take to the notary--an informal agreement that is signed and temporary. Remind her that if you're primary custodial parent, she would owe child support. You can let her know that if SHE is the one pushing for a divorce, SHE will have to do all the footwork because YOU are pushing for reconciliation and will continue to do so. You can let her know would request mediation to reconcile and ask the court for marital counseling. There is a LOT to do before any divorce! 

So as best as you can let her talk. Don't say "No that's not true! This is what happened..." but instead say "So it's sounds like you're saying that you were really hurt" to validate what is valid. Try to remember to translate Disloyal Dizzy talk into reality. A LOT (I repeat... *A LOT)* of what she says will be rewriting history, blame, projecting, and dizziness ... so don't let too much of it sink into your heart okay? My little formula when they are talking nuts is to agree and turn it back on them like this: 

DISLOYAL: "You're taking all our friends and turning people against me."

LOYAL: "Yes I agree. You were going to lie to our friends to turn them against me."

:rofl: Do you kind of get it?

Anyway, don't be afraid, IAM. Be calm. Be loving. Stay the course and stay on YOUR plan. And you are not alone.


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## Tanelornpete

Stay your course. There is nothing that can be said that can change what you can be doing - only you can decide to do that. Stay skeptical, and loving. You have a set of conditions by which she can come back home. Everything else is simply status quo, she is having an affair, you are working on the marriage. Keep it that way.


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## jar

Keep on track my friend...I know this is tuff especially when you are being caught off guard and have little time to prepare and have no idea what the subject is…Maybe it is good news stay positive…You have been an amazing person and father through all this maybe the fog is clearing and she is seeing what kind of person you truly are…

No matter what stay calm and be positive and….no love extinguishers allowed no matter what…If things get really uncomfortable and your are feeling trapped just simply say you need some time to process before you are ready to respond and that you will get back to her by x.. Again you don’t talk divorce remember…drag those feet…If you need a refresher coarse check out my thread…Just be kind and caring and supportive but be true to yourself. Let her see how wonderful you truly are even in this tough situation.


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## iamnottheonlyone

It wasn't as bad as it could have been. Her boyfriend owns a unit in a nearby town. He is renting it to her at a reduced rate. She was stressed. I had a problem with my son meeting the OM. That lead to a half hour of love extinguishing. Ultimately it is my son's decision. She wanted me to take a neutral position. I refused. I felt she was going to set my son up. I told her that scene would be very ugly. She told me that my son was having a difficult time because he wanted to protect me. I told her he was fine with me now. That he was having a difficult time because he felt abandoned. This ran round and round like a dog chasing his tail. It was a red herring. I finally got her to move off of that. It wasn't all bad. I will complete my "report" tomorrow and ask what you folks think. Gotta go to bed.


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## iamnottheonlyone

We talked as honestly and openly as we could. At the end she said she appreciated us talking so candidly.
She says she has a one year lease from her boyfriend. I don't know who suggested that. When my wife and I started living together before we were married I owned the home. I didn't have her contribute to the mortgage or pay rent. Now she resents the fact that I had "required" her to pay bills.
As the conversation developed I asked her what I did to hurt her most and what I did not do that I should have done. I told her I needed to know. She talked about her debt and how I insisted she take care of it herself. She felt that she was alone. That we didn't have a problem, just her. She was furious that I let my former partner keep dragging out her maturnity leave while I still paid her. W said I was making her pay her debt but giving money to my partner. I explained that I was used. I expeted my partner to come back and work. She would make us money when she did. This was a real love extinguisher for my wife. I explained to her that when dealing with my wife's debt I didn't want to appear vulnerable and weak. The financial stuff had to be dealt with yet she would not tell me where she was spending her money. And I didn't ask to see her check book or credit card bill. She told me things were really bad for her financially. I asked her why she didn't tell the truth. She said she thought I wouldn't listen. She said that my attitude showed that I didn't love her. I told her I did and I do. She said I don't love her . I was upset and told her that she can not know how I feel. That she can say what she believes but that she is wrong.
She mentioned a number of things that happened in the weeks before I found out about the affair. Arguments we had. So other than the financial issue that dragged on for 18 years the other complaints were all of recent vintage. My friend S had identified this financial need weeks ago. From our discussion it appears to be the number 1 need. My approach become a serious love buster. But I was under stress the same way. Debt was piling up on my side too. All the money I was paying out to my partner was putting my business in the red. I never shared that with her. She knows there are loans but not how large they are. 
She told me that I wait to long to deal with things like my partners status and our marriage. The before she left on trips were would have discussion that disturbed her and she would be upset on her trip. When she returned I acted like nothing was wrong. I told her that I thought nothing was wrong and what eve the issue was we had settled it. I said how would I know if she didn't tell me. Which she didn't. 
I then said alol this has to change. We must adopt a "policy of joint agreement" and be transparent and honest. We talked about this for sometime. 
One issue she became upset with was my taking our son to the doctor's this week. She had insisted last week that he see a therapist. I called the pediatric psych unit. They suggested I speak with my son's doctor. I called him and told him about the separation and asked him to speak with my son about these issues. I suggested I would schedule his annual physical and we could kill two birds with one stone. So that is what I did. She yelled at me for not informing her of all of this. I firmly responded that I did just what she asked me to do. That she wasn't speaking to me and I didn't know where she was. So her complaint was unfounded. I was giving her the space she wanted. She complained that the physical was early so it would be covered by insurance. Again I responded, how would I know?
She complained of my lack of attention to things. Last weekend I complimented her on a necklace and said I hadn't seen it before. She said I have had it for a while. Now she complained about that saying that it showed how little I paid attention. I said that I was trying to be nice. That although the necklace was familiar looking I was more interested in looking at her. Also in the back of my mind it could have been a gift from her boyfriend. She backed off a bit. She said her boyfriend doesn't buy her presents. That she herself has not had money to buy any new clothes or things.
She again insisted that I didn't love her and I couldn't be trusted. That set me off. I told her she had no basis for that. She said my attempt to find things out about her boyfriend proved I was untrustworthy. I said to her she can't turn the tables on me. She is the one that repeatedy lied, acted inappropriately deceived, cheated and betrayed. She was the untrustwothy one and I was not going to stand for that. I told her she has never know anyone that was more trustworthy and faithful. I was agitated. She then said that the old husband is back. I said I responded appropriately to such an accusation. I said I am working on me. That I am not trying to change her and she can do what she wants. 
She said she has seen the change. However it will not make a difference. She said I should move on. I said that I will not move on. That I love her and she is not going to change my mind. That as long as I am her husband there will be no other woman in my life. I expected her to say something about divorce, but she did not. I said you signed a year lease with your boyfriend. I will wait the year to see how things turn out. At the end of the year I will reevaluate my situation. She said I shouldn't wait for her to change her mind as she is very happy with him. I said I will wait and see.
She agreed to the Policy of Joint Agreement and to be honest. I told her I need her schedule so I know what to expect with our son. She said she tells him. I said he is not the parent. She must communicate with me directly. 
We discussed her financial stesses which brought her to tears. She is now paying rent and has an expensive truck. I suggested she sell the truck to the dealer who has done the repairs. She said our son does not what to her to sell it as we need it for the ski season. I think she was hoping I would trade vehicles. She asked me how much the Honda costs me. I told her. She seemed disappointed. 
Given the stress she is under I suggested we sit down and work out a budget for both households. That I would go to the dealership with her to look for another vehicle. Maybe a smaller SUV.
So her number 1 need seems to be financial. I will try to work with her to reduce the stress. If we divorced the house would be sold or refinanced. That would solve the debt issue for her. I could refinace or take out a second mortgage to take care of the debt.
This all took about 2 hours. So my greatest fears were not realized. She did not ask for a divorce and she is not moving in with the boyfriend. I have a year to see how this works out. I would think that OM would stay over when my son is not there. I can accept that as that should lead to some real world like experience. But that relationship is more like a drip, drip real world. 
One big question. Would I stand a better chance of resolving this if I refinanced now? She hasn't even suggested anything like this. Should I talk of this debt as our debt? I have always viewed the bills she has as her responsibility but as family debt. She paid for our truck. I paid for our house. I want to get rid of this love extinguisher. But with her out of the house I don't want to be soley responsible for paying that second mortgage. My sister's name is still on the deed and I still owe her some money from our joint prchase 20+ years ago. She would have to be paid in any case. Maybe I should ckeck out the options with my bank?


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## turnera

Do NOT refinance! If you ever want her back, you will NOT make this easy on her. Refinancing is the same thing as financing her affair. Plain and simple.

You did really well. You have every right to be agitated when she blames YOU for being untrustworthy. That said, calm is always the best road, you know. 

I saw several instances where her guilt makes her say things. You KNOW she's full of guilt for not handling her finances, but she can't admit that. And if you take that off her shoulders, what will happen? She will just build it back up again. And HATE you for rescuing her. 

Think of her as a kid. If they learn hardships, they will come out of it a better person.


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## iamnottheonlyone

You are right. I just got off the phone with my brother. He said I would be an enabler if I did do that. He said I have been going in the right direction and that I should not make things easier for her. I have only mentioned working on a joint budget with her.
What do you think of this "well off" boyfriend renting his unit to her. My brother laughed so hard he nearly choked. I didn't see it until he pointed out that now the boyfriend has made money on my wife. I am almost all the way out of my fog. Thanks for keeping me grounded.


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## Tanelornpete

> We talked as honestly and openly as we could. At the end she said she appreciated us talking so candidly.


I am thinking about posting a more thorough analysis of your conversation - pretty sure Affaircare will. First thoughts though - about 90% of what your wife said was pure fog talk. Cutting through the justifications, manipulations and obfuscations will give you a much better idea of how to work your Plan A.

Finances: her responsibility.

This is the first I've heard of your relationship to your partner. Might have missed that somewhere - but right there could be the biggest extinguisher of them all - the tidal wave sweeping over the campfire...


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## iamnottheonlyone

Yeah. My business partner had a second child that had a heart problem. I didn't feel I could just cut her off after 6 weeks. It dragged on for many months while I rduced her share until we dissolved our business. I don't think this really became an issue until after I discovered the affair. You might recall that my wife was stuck in London for a couple days. We talked. She said she loved me. Unbeknownst to me, my bookkeeper who is a fight attendant and good friend of W was also there. A few days before he and I had talked about the drop of in income 2 years prior. I reminded him of the continued payout to the no show partner. When my wife returned from her trip she mentioned that she was not treated as well as my partner. I found out later that the bookkeeper worked the flight home. She regularly throws this and other small things I did around the time of discovery back at me to support her position that I do/did not love her.


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## sparkside1

I have a similar situation. My wife told me that she loved me but was not in love with me. Wanted to be best friends and needed space. We had been separated a week before I discovered the affair. I told her family and mine exposed her and made her confess to her mother in front of me. She squirmed and at one point, ran out of the door! Since then, I have just backed off and watched the affair disintergrate. He is still in love with an ex and she has withdrawn as I know everything about this guy and now so does our small town! The only way I know it's over is that she has started taking an interest in me again and inviting me over when normally she would have gone to se the OM. My advice is to watch and see. Intervntions to expose the affair are necessary but then back off and let it hit the rocks. They always do after horse whipping your wife and humiliating her. She will come at you with every nasty word she can say and threaten to stop you seeing your kids but ultimatley, she will see what's important...eventually. It's weather you have the balls and patience to wait it out. I know it nearly killed me but I've seen the power of persistance.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I appreciate your inspiration. I believe you. That is why I persist. "Patience" is my mantra. And I am applying it to all facets of my life. My wife really took a "horse whipping". I told every mutual friend and family member I could reach. It was painful for me to do. She described it as emotional blackmail. Thanks for your support. I will not quit.
We talked a couple of times today. It appears that our discussion last night was fruitful. We are talking about all kinds of issues. The affair is still in full bloom, but I believe I have regained her respect since my begging, pleading, grovelling antics ended. I had the nerve to say "Luv ya" before I hung up. She replied, "Luv ya, too." Plan A.


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## jar

iamnot

I think you did really well. What blows my mind is how negative and hurtful our spouses can be. My wife has said some terrible things to me during all this. It also amazes me how they can twist reality all around. It’s just crazy because we are the ones that have done nothing but be loving and caring. Much of what your wife told you I have heard as well.

I still have hope for you and your wife...Stay strong positive and patient.

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thanks Jar. I was quite nervous last night. I did give myself plenty of time to prepare and talked to a couple of friends who ran me through some scenarios. I didn't know what to expect.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> I appreciate your inspiration. I believe you. That is why I persist. "Patience" is my mantra. And I am applying it to all facets of my life. My wife really took a "horse whipping". I told every mutual friend and family member I could reach. It was painful for me to do. She described it as emotional blackmail. Thanks for your support. I will not quit.
> We talked a couple of times today. It appears that our discussion last night was fruitful. We are talking about all kinds of issues. The affair is still in full bloom, but I believe I have regained her respect since my begging, pleading, grovelling antics ended. I had the nerve to say "Luv ya" before I hung up. She replied, "Luv ya, too." Plan A.


IAM, there is a GOLDMINE of info in your talk together and I'm going through it line-by-line right now, but I have a quick thought for you okay (and my longer post as quickly as I can type it )? 

I would say don't refinance anything...right now. Yes I understand that Financial Commitment is one of her biggest needs, but a) you don't want to fund the affair, and b) you don't want to fund her inability to manage her finances and live within a budget or withing means. What you DO want to do is tackle money TOGETHER and do money as a team..not has "her money, my money." It is that way now because she chooses to continue her affair. BUT consider this: her supposedly "well-off" OM is now making money off of her and couldn't even contribute to her finances by paying for her place to stay! So he's offering 0% Financial Commitment and if you can talk through some issues together, and tackle them as a team, you CAN offer more than 0% -- and you can show her that you can do that! OM can't. So .... *Plan A*. Work your plan. 

Now--I'm off to evaluate your long post line-by-line. The reply will be long and I'll likely break it down but keep going through the whole thing--okay? By the way, did I mention I'm proud of you? From what you learned in this conversation, you have the kernels of truth to figure out what the most painful love extinguishers were and knowing that, you can work through them with her. Even though she signed a 1 year lease, it's on it's last legs, IAM, and here's how I know: "She said her boyfriend doesn't buy her presents. That she herself has not had money to buy any new clothes or things." Also her BF is now making money off her and couldn't even provide (as in PAY FOR) a place for her -and- didn't ask her to move in with him. Also: "She said she has seen the change (in you)." So this guy she is supposedly so happy with can't help her with gas or car payments to even get to see him, didn't ask her to move in, doesn't buy her presents....and she is noticing the changes in you and hearing about them from mutual friends. Hmmmm... the affair is crashing. 

I'm proud of you. In a moment that had to have been scary for you, you did pretty good and thought on your feet! It's getting closer and closer to ending every day.


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## Affaircare

*REPLY PART ONE!*

Hey IAM!

Okay there is a WEALTH of information here for you--a virtual gold mine from which you can learn a lot about both Love Extinguishers and her unrealistic expectations. I have bolded all the important parts okay? So rather than yak on about it, let's dive in, shall we?



> We talked as honestly and openly as we could. At the end she said *she appreciated us talking so candidly*.


Very good sign. She has been wanting this kind of a candid talk for a while, and I'm guessing she likely felt "heard" for the first time in a while.



> She says she has a one year lease from her boyfriend. I don't know who suggested that. When my wife and I started living together before we were married *I owned the home.* I didn't have her contribute to the mortgage or pay rent. Now she resents the fact that *I had "required" her to pay bills.*


Just to be sure I understand correctly, when you two first started living together you owned the house. You did not have her split the cost of the house payment but in lieu of that you did have her pay certain bills (like she didn't have to pay for rent but she paid the electricity and cable instead). And now she says that she resents that you "required" her to pay anything. Is that correct?

I see two things in that statement: 1) she will resent the OM for "requiring" her to pay rent on a place and not asking her to move in with him (for free)--so that is a good thing  and 2) she has unrealistic expectations about being a grown up! Hey here is an adult reality for ya: married or single, you contribute to that household financially somehow! Even SAHM's and SAHD's contribute financially by being home and not requiring those who work to pay for child care and maid service and meal prepartion. 

However here's what I wonder. So you owned a house prior to meeting her/moving in together and you asked her to move into the house you owned. Did you decide to continue paying the mortgage and "make" her pay certain bills or did the two of you sit down, review finances, and decide how to split things together? Did she agree enthusiastically? Did you do finances as a team? Or did you go over the numbers and then "tell her who was paying what" kind of? Also, when you were married did you put her name on the mortgage, on the deed, or anything? You owned it as your "bachelor pad" prior to living together, so once you two were married, in what way did you acknowledge that she shared with you together, not just her living in your house all these years?

My GUESS just by reading and remembering past convos and whatnot is that all this time her name was never added to the deed nor to the mortgage (sharing the benefits AND the responsibility) and that prior to this she was not included as an equal in the finance discussions and how you two would do your finances. My guess is that to some degree it stayed "yours and hers" and all these years she resented that she didn't have someone pulling for her on her team but rather all this time it felt more like a competition...and one that she was losing! So rather than feeling like there was someone on her side, helping and pulling for her...it felt like she had to ask for "yours" and then you didn't want to share it with her so she got pissed about it. Whaddya think? Sound accurate-ish? If so, what can you learn from this, IAM? 



> As the conversation developed I asked her what I did to hurt her most and what I did not do that I should have done. I told her I needed to know. She talked about her debt and how I insisted she take care of it herself.* She felt that she was alone. That we didn't have a problem, just her.* She was furious that I let my former partner keep dragging out her maturnity leave while I still paid her. *W said I was making her pay her debt but giving money to my partner.* I explained that I was used. I expeted my partner to come back and work. She would make us money when she did. This was a real love extinguisher for my wife.


Ah IAM, I love it when people do this. This is such a HUGE piece of the puzzle it's practically a pink elephant sitting there in the living room, but all this time you never mentioned this. Here we are a few months into trying to help you work through this affair, and now we have the piece that can really, really help. 

Again just to be sure I have the facts straight, you had a female business partner. When she was working for the company she made the company money. She got pregnant, the baby had some health issues, and rather than honoring the agreement for 6 weeks maturnity and either return to work or end of maturnity--your business paid her to be gone. None of this was agreed to enthusiastically by your wife, and when she did let you know her opinion, you continued to pay this business partner while at the same time you would not help your own wife clear up some of her debts. So for your WIFE you did not have a financial partnership and team, but for your business partner you felt some obligation financially and continued paying her even though your spouse verbalized that she was not in agreement! 

Now I do realize that part of you defends yourself by saying it's in the past, she used you, etc. but what your wife is doing a pretty darn good job of doing is pointing out to you did that put out the flames of love in her heart. That was dumping a swimming pool on her flame. And rather than listening with a tender heart and saying, "Oh! So what you're saying is that I preferred someone ahead of you. And when you wanted someone to be on your team financially I teamed up with someone else and that DEEPLY hurt you. And when I should have had a Policy of Joint Agreement between us personally and for the business...when I did hear you were not enthusiastic I did it anyway" what you did was try to explain why it was okay for you to ignore the POJA that you want her to have--but apparently you don't need to do! 

IAM, let me see if I can explain this to you. You owned the house/property. She came to you as your new wife and she had some debt. So rather than saying, "Hey honey, let's do this together. We'll write down every penny of income we BOTH have, and every bill and debt we BOTH have, and then we can decide together what we want to pay and work on and who will pay what." Instead, you kept YOUR house, didn't add her to the deed or mortgage, made her pay the bills you decided, and didn't help her with her debt...all while you did help another woman. Can you maybe see why this was such a huge Extinguisher for her? She probably didn't want you to just "pay it for her" so much as she wanted to feel like given the choice between helping her or helping some other woman, you would pick her hands down every time! 



> I explained to her that when dealing with my wife's debt I didn't want to appear vulnerable and weak. The financial stuff had to be dealt with yet she would not tell me where she was spending her money. And I didn't ask to see her check book or credit card bill. She told me things were really bad for her financially. I asked her why she didn't tell the truth. *She said she thought I wouldn't listen. She said that my attitude showed that I didn't love her.* I told her I did and I do. She said I don't love her . I was upset and told her that she can not know how I feel. That she can say what she believes but that she is wrong.


Okay IAM, in a weird way, if you put the defense wall down, are you able to see what she's saying? You didn't respond back to her validating her view but rather explaining why it was okay to hurt her. If I'm hurting you is it okay for me to say "Oh I know I'm hurting you but here's why I'm going to continue"? NO!! You want me to say "Oh wait! I'm hurting you? I didn't know that. Here's how I'll stop." So please, stop explaining. Listen--she's telling you what you did that hurt her, and you asked her to tell you. 

Okay so you had a house/property...she had some debt. You didn't add her to the deed or mortgage, and you didn't pay household expenses mutually but rather "his and hers." You didn't help her out with her debt but you did help out another woman, and you kept helping the other woman even after she said she did not agree. AND she says didn't show you her checkbook or bills because she said she though you wouldn't listen because you're attitude about money had demonstrated to her that you didn't care about her finances. It was like she was cast out into the cold ... to her ... and what she wanted was to be an equal partner, to be part of a team that was tackling money things together. Can you hear that's what she's saying now? When I explain it all right out there, can you see how it would hurt if you were treated that way? 

What if SHE had be an independent lady and owned her own house before you two met...and once you moved in together and got married, she never did add you to "her house"? What if she said, "you pay this bill and that bill" but you didn't get to have a say in the mutual, household bills or finances? What if she made a business decision that you STRONGLY disagreed with and even after you made it extremely clear that you were against it, she went ahead with it--ignoring you? What if you had some debts (no biggie but how about student loans and a couple credit cards) you were expected to pay toward "the household" but the household didn't help you with your debts...that was "yours." Would that kind of attitude exude "love and caring" to you? Or would that seem like you're cut off and cut out--ignored--and not part of a team? 

See, IAM, for there to be a Policy of Joint Agreement, that doesn't just mean that she agrees with you! :lol: That means that you also do nothing until both of you have reached enthusiastic agreement, and if you would not have just made decisions nor paid another woman while not helping her! What's past is past now, and can not be changed or undone...but hopefully now at least you can see it. She was actually extremely clear about two things: #1--Her HUGEST need/kindler is Financial Commitment and #2--The biggest Love Extinguisher you committed was Financial Neglect, not that there wasn't plenty of money but rather that she was not part of a "team" mutually working together on all the finances. 

So now that you know this--what do you think? Can you apologize to her for not hearing what she was saying all these years and really let her know that you "Get It"...you let her down because you were not a team on the finances, she felt adrift by herself.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Sure I can tell her I am aorry. And I do understand. In the back of my mind I guess I knew this. The Problem with our home is even more complicated. I bought it with my sister. Before my W moved in I paid my sister back for half what she paid. Then my W's first financial crisis happened and I never paid off my sister to get a clear deed. My sister and I became estranged. She is still on the deed.
I totally understand the business partner thing. I wanted another child and I think my wife did. But given her struggles with controling her spending I think she could not commit to having another child she could not afford. Then I go on, in her mind, and finance my partner's second child. It ticked me off too. Life can get so complicated.
I have read and reread your analysis and it is more than likely correct. If she had spoken up at some point I would have realized where things were. Her repeated financial problems kepts me from solving the deed issue with my sister. 
I agree with you about working the together on the budget. I have been tossing and turning the past two nights without enabling her affair. 
We need to continue our conversation to make progress. How can I work this in. I have apologized for the financial stuff. I have asked for her forgiveness and she has refused to give it to me.


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## Affaircare

*REPLY PART TWO!*

Again, I bolded the really important parts. 



> She mentioned a number of things that happened in the weeks before I found out about the affair. Arguments we had. So other than t*he financial issue that dragged on for 18 years *the other complaints were all of recent vintage. My friend S had identified this financial need weeks ago. From our discussion it appears to be the number 1 need. My approach become a serious love buster. But I was under stress the same way. Debt was piling up on my side too. All the money I was paying out to my partner was putting my business in the red. *I never shared that with her.* She knows there are loans but not how large they are.


So here's what I would suggest going forward. #1 you lied and hid stuff from her for years. She is your wife. She is liable for every bit of debt you get into and yet it was purposely kept from her. Granted, she responded by keeping her finances from you too, but she also said time and again that she didn't feel like she had a financial partnership but like it was you against her or like she was alone. So the #1 think I suggest: all this lying, pretending and covering up stops...NOW. What's done is done and can no longer be changed, but you can change now, so do it. From this point forward, you show her all your financial information. ALL OF IT. Hey even if you did divorce it would all be in the paperwork so it's not like you have something to hide. Show her your income, your expenses, your bills, EVERY SINGLE DEBT...and then apologize for not working together with her on this before. She's lying and covering up affair things--well you lied and covered up financial things. If you want HER to be transparent and honest and open with you...that means YOU need to be transparent and honest and open with her. So take the first step and show her--every bit of it. 

#2 she is still your wife, so do what you can to apologize for the years and years of not sharing with her and being transparent to her. Now IAM I do understand that she was not hurting for any money--that any time she wanted, she could go out and buy things like clothes, get her hair done, nails, etc. I do get that. But she's talking about is that feeling like someone is in this WITH you...pulling on the oars together. Like what she said counted and like her opinion was every bit as valid and decisive as yours. In POJA, if either party is not enthusiastic...what happens? Nothing. Nothing occurs until both parties agree with enthusiasm, not with that sacrificial attitude of "well I'll give in this time and next time you have to give in to me" because that puts one party in the position of being overridden and controlled! So let her know that from this point forward you're an open book with her about the finances and that if she'd consider it, you'd love her input and participation in the household finances. 

#3 It is reasonable to say you will not pay for her affair! I suspect even she understands that you wouldn't pay for her to be with another man. But by showing her all of your debts, bills, profit and income now and including her in decisions now, you can show her...by your actions...that you understand the financial thing now and that you are able to meet that Financial Commitment need even to help her pay off her debts AS A COUPLE!! But in order to benefit from this new understanding and from your finances...that she would have to end the affair. So if you understand what I mean, show her what it COULD be like and that you "get" the concept about being partners and tackling the finances together. Show her you can do it and that you are still willing to take her back and work it out together! But the line in the sand is paying for her to be with another man. 



> She told me that *I wait to long to deal with things like my partners status and our marriage*. The before she left on trips were would have discussion that disturbed her and she would be upset on her trip. *When she returned I acted like nothing was wrong.* I told her that I thought nothing was wrong and what eve the issue was we had settled it. I said how would I know if she didn't tell me. Which she didn't.
> I then said alol this has to change. We must adopt a "policy of joint agreement" and be transparent and honest. We talked about this for sometime.


Okay here's the translation: "Rather than facing things and resolving them, you pretend everything's okay and there's no resolution." Now invision her love flame; the bucket of water is over the fire, and you put a small hole in it. She wants you to stop and fill the small hole, and you figured: "If she doesn't mention the small hole, it must be okay." Then you put in another hole and another...and never fill them up. What does that do to her flame? Does the water ever stop dripping on her or is it like this continuous, annoying drip that is never addressed or fixed? 

So yes, she has to be open enough to say "this is still on my mind disturbing me because we never resolved it" but as a partner in the marriage you have to also be alert to the things that were disagreements between you and bring them to resolution. Since she's not here, I can not advise her, but YOUR part in this would be things like, "So do you feel like this issue is resolved? We agreed together to (do X, Y, Z) right?" If you didn't reach POJA then you do nothing until she returns and resume the POJA discussions! When you two disagree, if she is gone for a little while it doesn't just resolve itself. Thus I would politely suggest that you step up the energy and personal responsibility and make sure that an issue is utterly resolved in her mind otherwise they tend to pile and pile and pile up...and you can see what the results are.



> One issue she became upset with was my taking our son to the doctor's this week. She had insisted last week that he see a therapist. I called the pediatric psych unit. They suggested I speak with my son's doctor. I called him and told him about the separation and asked him to speak with my son about these issues. I suggested I would schedule his annual physical and we could kill two birds with one stone. So that is what I did. *She yelled at me for not informing her of all of this.* I firmly responded that I did just what she asked me to do. That she wasn't speaking to me and I didn't know where she was. So her complaint was unfounded. I was giving her the space she wanted. She complained that the physical was early so it would be covered by insurance. Again I responded, how would I know?


IAM I'm going to keep this one short. What she's saying is that you don't make the effort to keep track of what is important TO HER. In summary, she asked you to have your son see a therapist. Rather than looking for a therapist or divorce support group for teens or something, you scheduled a doctor appointment. #1 you didn't think of her as equal co-parent and inform her: "Hey honey before I commit to this, I made a doctor appointment. I did that because of this, this and that. Is that what you wanted me to do?" Nope you didn't check, and now the appointment won't be covered by insurance. Now, if SHE is able to know when the next annual physical could be paid by insurance...you're a smart, capable businessman! Why would you not be able to know that? You could have. You could have checked your insurance first, or asked the nurse at the scheduling desk, etc. You are a father and a parent, and could have looked. 

BUT she is also, fairly unrealistically, expecting you to know everything she knows, expecting you to get her permission to do everything when she's the one who's left, and demanding that you get an appointment to her liking rather than just doing it herself. So it's a weird balancing act. I would say at this point she is probably pretty darn sensitive to NOT being considered an equal partner in the marriage so it's probably best to err on the side of considering her...but in order to do that, you'd also have to know where she is and how to contact her. I think I'd recommend telling her you would be happy to include her more often in the decisions but you do need to know her contact info...AND she would be even MORE involved on a day-to-day basis if she would end the affair, come home, and work on rebuilding the marriage and the family. (See how I always work that in there?  Note to self.)



> *She complained of my lack of attention to things. *Last weekend I complimented her on a necklace and said I hadn't seen it before. She said I have had it for a while. Now she complained about that saying that it showed how little I paid attention. I said that I was trying to be nice. That although the necklace was familiar looking I was more interested in looking at her. Also in the back of my mind it could have been a gift from her boyfriend. She backed off a bit. *She said her boyfriend doesn't buy her presents. That she herself has not had money to buy any new clothes or things.*


AH HA!! Lots of info here! LOTS!! I can summarize. Pay way more attention: to her, her clothing, her perfume, her hair, her makeup, her sizes, her brands, her jewelry, her shoes. Hey I know all about designer fashion and stuff, and it's a whole 'nother world you can study! But the main thing she's saying there: "I have to set myself on fire before you notice me." 

Next, note that HER BOYFRIEND DOESN'T BUY HER PRESENTS. This is a perfect opening for you and your Plan A now. You can afford to and want to buy her little gifts and maybe some new clothes. Don't go for the "gift certificate to Nordstroms" as that shows little or no initiative.  Take the time to learn about clothing, her favorites, her sizes, and buy her a few little things now and then. YOU buy her things. YOU will be her Financial partner. YOU will pay attention to her. YOU will include her in every decision. YOU will be open and honest with her. And...what does the OM do again? 

Keep chipping away at that.


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## turnera

I can't even offer anything better. AC said everything I wanted to say but was too lazy to go back and point it all out. Print out her posts and read them EVERY day. Until you get it.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Some how I found an time and place to get her to talk about the things that troubled my W. I couldn't have done that with out all your help. You have taught me much. It really help to be comfortable with the "material". My friend S suggested that I try to meet with my wife regularly to review our financial and family issues. That it could occur at neutral ground. He thought things could have gone better if we had our discussion face to face.


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## Affaircare

*REPLY PART THREE--THE FINALE!*...with the important bits in bold again. 



> She again insisted that I didn't love her and I couldn't be trusted. That set me off. I told her she had no basis for that. She said my attempt to find things out about her boyfriend proved I was untrustworthy. I said to her she can't turn the tables on me. She is the one that repeatedy lied, acted inappropriately deceived, cheated and betrayed. She was the untrustwothy one and I was not going to stand for that. I told her she has never know anyone that was more trustworthy and faithful. I was agitated. *She then said that the old husband is back.* I said I responded appropriately to such an accusation. I said I am working on me. That I am not trying to change her and she can do what she wants.


IAM, this kind of reaction is understandable yet not very likely to build trust and love in her. She is looking for proof that the changes are temporary and only to "make her move home" and by being set off and angry, see how she says "...the old husband is back"? That means some of the work you've done was undone. 

So it is indeed true that she can not be in your body and tell you what emotions you are and are not feeling. But what she's saying is that you hit a nerve. Her boyfriend (who's supposed to be so wonderful she's willing to commit adultery and lose her family) doesn't buy her gifts. He doesn't help either! So she says to herself: "Let's deflect from that pain and see if we can't somehow turn it around to you and mix a little blame in somehow. Let's poke the bear and see if he responds in the same old way or see if he's really, actually changed! Then I can blame him!" 

I want you to actually practice this with someone. Have them sling a few insults at you that they think might be typical disloyal accusations such as "You never loved me" and "I can't trust you" (funny--that particular accusation coming from a cheater!). You're job is to validate, not defend or explain. So actually practice replying "so it sounds like you are saying you very rarely felt deeply cared for" or "from what you're saying, you feel like I don't reassure and I'm not reliable". Okay? DO IT! LOL 



> *She said she has seen the change.* However it will not make a difference. She said I should move on. I said that I will not move on. That I love her and she is not going to change my mind. That as long as I am her husband there will be no other woman in my life. I expected her to say something about divorce, but she did not. I said you signed a year lease with your boyfriend. I will wait the year to see how things turn out. At the end of the year I will reevaluate my situation. She said I shouldn't wait for her to change her mind as she is very happy with him. I said I will wait and see.
> 
> *She agreed to the Policy of Joint Agreement and to be honest.* I told her I need her schedule so I know what to expect with our son. She said she tells him. I said he is not the parent. She must communicate with me directly.


Actually this was a pretty good exchange and very, VERY encouraging! She sees the changes. Okay not perfect but still that's alright!  And she had a perfect opening to say she wanted a divorce but she didn't so that means she doesn't really want one. She may be saying she's happy but that's as much to convince her as it is to convince you...and I suspect what she really wants is for you to CONVINCE HER it's safe to return and it won't be like it was. I would possibly suggest that you say to her "He is the child and I am the parent, so I'm requesting that you communicate with me not him." If you say she "must" that is a demand and you're controlling her--but if you make a healthy request, it shows respect for her. So this one...good job!!



> *We discussed her financial stesses which brought her to tears. *She is now paying rent and has an expensive truck. I suggested she sell the truck to the dealer who has done the repairs. She said our son does not what to her to sell it as we need it for the ski season. I think she was hoping I would trade vehicles. She asked me how much the Honda costs me. I told her. She seemed disappointed.
> 
> Given the stress she is under I suggested we sit down and work out a budget for both households. That I would go to the dealership with her to look for another vehicle. Maybe a smaller SUV.


Couple of things. Before you decide that paying rent and having an expensive truck is what is stressing her, please ask--don't assume. This shows her respect. 

Next, I like the idea of sitting down and working out a budget for both households, but this is a very fine line you walk, IAM. You do not want to help her figure out how to finance her affair or make her affair easier. Your job is to make the affair less attractive and harder, right? So I would suggest showing her your finances--as that's respecting her since she is still your wife. I would suggest showing her what your household budget COULD BE LIKE if she chose to end her affair and move home. That way she can see that you are willing to pull with her as a team, address all of her finances and be honest about all of your finances. Don't make it be "hers and his" but rather "OURS"--WE are working on all of it together. 

Then regaring the truck, you could indicate you would be happy to help her go to the dealership and trade it in for something more affordable if she decided to end the affair and come home. Maybe even show her that you have a relationship with the bank or this or that credit and you could really help! But that help is one of the benefits of committing to the marriage and as long as the affair is ongoing your hands are tied. If she is DETERMINED to not end that affair, you just can not give her the benefits of "you" but boy you would LOVE to have that chance if she'd just honor her vows and end the affair! Make sense?



> So her number 1 need seems to be financial. I will try to work with her to reduce the stress. If we divorced the house would be sold or refinanced. That would solve the debt issue for her. I could refinace or take out a second mortgage to take care of the debt.
> 
> This all took about 2 hours. So my greatest fears were not realized. She did not ask for a divorce and she is not moving in with the boyfriend. I have a year to see how this works out. I would think that OM would stay over when my son is not there. I can accept that as that should lead to some real world like experience. But that relationship is more like a drip, drip real world.
> 
> One big question. Would I stand a better chance of resolving this if I refinanced now? She hasn't even suggested anything like this. Should I talk of this debt as our debt? I have always viewed the bills she has as her responsibility but as family debt. She paid for our truck. I paid for our house. *I want to get rid of this love extinguisher. *But with her out of the house I don't want to be soley responsible for paying that second mortgage. My sister's name is still on the deed and I still owe her some money from our joint prchase 20+ years ago. She would have to be paid in any case. Maybe I should ckeck out the options with my bank?


Do you see what I wrote above? Here's my thought. Check for informational purposes only how you can pay off your sister and get her name off the deed. Get some information on all of our household's income and debts--yours, hers, and ours. :lol: Get it ALL on paper and get several options how you might address her concerns, address her lack of being on the house, address her debt...addresss all of it including how she felt alone financially. How could you do it if you were together? 

THAT is what you show her!! Let her see that you "get it" and that you have several ideas of how to address every one of her issues. Ask her if there's one she prefers because remember? POJA. You don't refinance or go to dealerships or get new trucks or pay off anything without her enthusiastic agreement!! Show her that you have the ability to really work on those things too and that together, as a team, she would have the financial commitment she's craved all these years. BUT that you can not do it while she gives her affection and loyalty to another man.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife and I are attending my son's game this evening. What should I bring up? Should I try to reach an agreement on meeting regularly to discuss son and budget issues? Things were ao open over the past few days I want to keep the lines of communication open.


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## turnera

Ask her how SHE wants to handle it.


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## jar

affaircare

I read through all of your comments and I must say what an eye opener. When I read through IAM conversation with his wife I didn’t see any of what you pointed out.. Everything you pointed out was oblivious to me when I first read through it.. It was very interesting. I got a lot out of it. 

Thank you for taking the time to post. It is really helping all of us.

JAR


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

_*Okay IAM, in a weird way, if you put the defense wall down, are you able to see what she's saying? You didn't respond back to her validating her view but rather explaining why it was okay to hurt her. If I'm hurting you is it okay for me to say "Oh I know I'm hurting you but here's why I'm going to continue"? NO!! You want me to say "Oh wait! I'm hurting you? I didn't know that. Here's how I'll stop." So please, stop explaining. Listen--she's telling you what you did that hurt her, and you asked her to tell you. *_

IAM - AC's response helped me put my finger on what has been bothering me since my H and I talked on Sunday. It is the same thing!! I feel as though now I can see problems/issues from his point of view (even if I don't necessarily agree with them), but when I brought up my concerns, he kept justifying/dismissing his actions. He doesn't have to agree, just try to see things from my perspective, and then attempt to compromise a solution. It can't be all one-way or the other. Your posts and AC's responses really helped me out this morning!

I am slowly beginning to see how if two people really work on all facets of their marriage after an affair/separation, they can have a marriage even better than they ever though possible. And if my H and I can't work this out, I'll be SOOOO much better in future relationships.

Have a good day!!


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## iamnottheonlyone

AC, Thanks. I am still reviewing your analysis. The conversation I had with my wife was probably the most we have EVER talked about our marriage. I hope I may have resolved some love busters As the affair continues I assume that I did not make love bank deposits. Both of us lowered the defense wall. I will keep it down today. I will let you know if she does too.


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## Tanelornpete

> I am slowly beginning to see how if two people really work on all facets of their marriage after an affair/separation, they can have a marriage even better than they ever though possible. And if my H and I can't work this out, I'll be SOOOO much better in future relationships.


On the NOSE!!! On the nose! Marriage must be deliberate all the time, in all areas. There is no room for assuming anything - if anything, marriage is the ultimate form of human communication. Happiness in a marriage is dependent upon knowing your spouse -really _knowing_ them - and that knowledge can only be communicated - it cannot be absorbed by magical osmosis - or even observation - words, communication, must happen - knowledge must be transmitted, understood, and used.


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## Affaircare

> My wife and I are attending my son's game this evening. What should I bring up? Should I try to reach an agreement on meeting regularly to discuss son and budget issues? Things were ao open over the past few days I want to keep the lines of communication open.


I love turnera's recommendation! Ask her what she wants to do. Also I think it would be a great idea to tell her you want to keep the lines of communication open and you like the way things have been open the past few days. Then SUGGEST or REQUEST a regular meeting and ask her if she's consider that. 

One main thing to really practice is respecting her, and requesting and then letting her have the freedom to say "yes" "no" or make a counter-suggestion is one way to show respect. :smthumbup:



> AC, Thanks. I am still reviewing your analysis. The conversation I had with my wife was probably the most we have EVER talked about our marriage. I hope I may have resolved some love busters As the affair continues I assume that I did not make love bank deposits. Both of us lowered the defense wall. I will keep it down today. I will let you know if she does too.


Actually I suspect that you made some love deposits as well just because you were willing to listen to her and you talked to her openly and you acted as if you were willing to do something about her issues. You know, IAM, envision a piggy bank. All of her coin were removed from the piggy bank, and just because you added a couple dimes doesn't mean it's full--and the affair isn't likely to end until you have more dimes in the bank than the OM does. Keep adding and adding and adding dimes, while also pulling dimes out, and eventually it will fill. This is not a "competition" but moreso to explain that the affair won't end overnight because you do a couple of deposits. Did you deposit? Yep I think you did! :smthumbup: Was it enough of a deposit for her to rethink the affair? Not yet but it is SURE getting there....


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife and I met at our son's game tonight. We chit chatted for a bit. I then mentioned our Saturday conversation. I told her that her statements were valid about our financial relationship. I asked that we be honest about our finances. She is sruggling with the new place. It is a 50 year old house that has not been maintained. She says her boyfriend bought it in an estate sale. She spent the day mowing the lawn. Her parents came over and cleaned. She asked me if ahe could have a dresser and a computer from our home. I told her I had already prepared the computer for her. And the dresser she could take any time. The house itself needs a lot of work. I tried to tie this into some relationship talk. She said she thought the conversation on Saturday was great but she didn't want to talk relationship tonight. She did however continue to talk finances. She is going to sell the truck and down size. She has to have cable installed for tv and internet. The house does not have an airconditioner. 
When we finished I invited her to have pizza with us. She said she was busy and had to go. She had a brief conversation with OM while in the stands. Before she left I gave her a housewarming gift I picked up this afternoon. She was surprised and said that it was sweet.
After we were on the road for a few minutes she called. She said that if she wasn't so busy she would have joined us for pizza. She said she had wanted to ask me out for a drink last Saturday night but got stuck in traffice with bad weather for a couple hours. She said that the gift was appreciated. We said we would talk later.
My friend S said this looked like real progress. I said emotionally it is but she is just setting up house. So we keep getting further apart physically. I will try to talk with her every day now just to chat. No relationship stuff.


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## cmf

I wouldn't worry about her setting up house, it sounds like she is already not happy with the new place . She had to mow the lawn herself, he didn't even offer to do it for her- that has got to be a love buster for her from HIM. Your wife calling back about going out for pizza is real progress , she wanted to make sure you knew she wasn't blowing you off. All sounds positive.


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## iamnottheonlyone

So my future comes onto focus. I have a year to get my marriage to become attractive to my wife and for her affair to become unattractive. 
It still boggles my mind that she would be willing to struggle like she is now. Miles from her child. Penny pinching in a rundown house. Leaving a beautiful home and the conveniences of the city. Downsizing from a luxury SUV to a small car. Basic cable. No airconditioning. 
I was just getting some ice from the freezer and thought of an annoying habit she has. She would empty the ice tray and not refill it. I got over it. But it was because I was committed to the marriage. She hasn't set up house with the boyfriend but there is no doubt he will be staying there. I can only hope her poor housekeeping will leave a bad taste in his mouth.
I don't think this is what she fantasized about when she left and when she started this affair.


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## jar

I know exactly what you are saying...My situation is very similar...Why would you want to go from having everything you ever wanted to having nothing and struggling. I even asked my wife this. She had no good answer...I guess it comes down to us guys have different needs. I don’t fully get it...I guess it is the affair fog...


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## turnera

Very true, this is a great way for the affair to implode. Don't forget to keep her family and friends updated on what she is doing and that she is doing this to choose OM over her husband. Keep it fresh in their minds that you are NOT ok with this.

Why a year, if I may ask? Is that your timeline for leaving? Or just because of the lease?


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

That cutting the grass thing has me cracking up! Heck, when my H was being a total mean jerk in the midst of his affair, he still called ahead and let me know he was coming over to work in the yard. While I (or my son) could have done it, he still saw it as something he should do. 

Her OM is using her for sex and now $$. She will see the light sooner rather than later, IMO.

Love busters all over the place with him.....


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## iamnottheonlyone

That is my outside limit. Our son will graduate from high school next spring. Mort F. recommends 1 year do that you are absolutely sure of what you want. I think I can make it that far without losing love and finding myself attracted to someoneelse who starts meeting my needs. My W has not been mean to me. She has not mentioned divorce. She is relatively cooperative. She meets me eye to eye. 
If she renews the lease or decides to move then I am done as it would be clear to me that she is done.


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## iamnottheonlyone

We learn new stuff every day. Most of the affairs dealt with here don't seem to have mental health or substance abuse issues. I assumed my wife's affair fell into that catagory. My wife mentioned yesterday that she had been depressed in the past. After 9/11 many airline employees were depressed due to the loss of friends. She says she mentioned to this to me several years ago and I responded that she had no reason to be as she had a loving husband, a great child and good job. I recall saying something like that to her, but I think she simply said something about being sad that day and it never came up again. She said she went therapy for a while. I never heard about it. 
Maybe there is still a depression factor involved. For the last couple of months there clearly was an anger issue. I will ask her when we talk next. If there is a depression issue it was/is not obvious.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife has been texting me since this afternoon about helping her sell the truck. I did research on line for her and we texted back and forth. I few of her texts were lighthearted. About an hour into my research I decided to call her as I had too much info to text. She did not answer the phone. Am I wrong to conclude that she didn't answer because she was sitting next to OM and texting me without his knowledge. What a twist!! If thatis accurate, and I do believe it is, wouldn't he be surprised by the nature of her texts?
In conclsusion, my last text to her was that I could not place the ad until next week. She did not respond.


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## turnera

It probably happens more than we think, the WS holding on to the BS like that. Keep it up!


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## iamnottheonlyone

The separation has become so much more black and white. I expect her mail will stop coming to the house any day, now that she has her own place. I have the computer ready for her to take. I believe she has been hanging at the boyfriend's all week. She has chosen to spend all her free time with her boyfriend rather than with her son. 
I did not call her yesterday. We did exchange some text in regard to the SUV. She still hasn't kept her word about letting me know her schedule so that my son and I can plan for the weekend. I have an invitation to hang for the weekend with friends. 
Yesterday was interesting. I had a chance to work briefly with two attractive younger women who flirted with me. Threee months ago I wouldn't have tolerated it. I probably wouldn't have noticed. It did help my confidence. Each time I have one of these encounters I can see that my wife is not the only one that could be with me. I can see more firmly that wanting to stay in the marriage is my choice. 
It is 10 weeks to our 20th anniversary. I don't see a change coming in 10 weeks. I will reevaluate Plan A then. We have much more interaction coming. Once my son is back in school there will likely be no more sleep overs at her place during the week. She will be on her own.


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## Affaircare

Before I respond directly to your post, IAM, I wanted to copy this that I also posted in Jar's thread. It applies to both of you and I thought it would encourage you: 

_ ...I would like to point out one little flaw in your thinking pattern... If you could stand right in front of her face, and if you two lived together, she might see the changes faster...or more easily. But since you are not seeing her and are not in front of her face, that doesn't mean she doesn't see or know of the changes. I believe you (and Jar) are in similar places in that his wife also is not living with him at the moment. BUT they have mutual friends, and the friends notice the changes and comment on them to her. Their son has noticed the changes and has commented on them to her. When they do have the limited interactions they have...she has noticed the changes and said so herself. 

So you are feeling somewhat impatient and want her to see the changes and fix things now-NOW-*NOW*!! Lol :lol: But what really happens is that you keep your focus on you, on ending Love Extinguishers and on becoming the man you have the potential to be...and people notice. It gets to her via the grapevine. You keep making sure your own side of the street is clear and keep working on yourself and your own issues whatever they may be. 

MEANWHILE, in affairland, guess what? She's discovering that Prince Charming has a tarnish or two (or ten). He does not have the moral qualities and characteristics you do. Now HE is the one doing Love Extinguishers to her and you are very quietly doing Love Kindlers. Now HE is the one who farts, leaves food on the counter, watches TV all night, etc. He has child support and/or a cranky ex in his closet. He has personal or mental health issues he won't address. He doesn't keep up the romance, so sex isn't as great. And all the while you have no Love Extinguishers because you're not there and you have purposely worked on eliminating them. Every time she sees you, you're calm, attentive, polite but assertive, and fair. 

See? It's not immediate but that is what's happening._


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## iamnottheonlyone

I do understand. The rational side of my brain believes. The emotional side struggles every day. The pain has lessened. I get a tweak every few hours but it subsides quickly. I spend a couple hours on TAM everyday as thinking aobut other peoples struggles takes my mind off of my problem.
Since I married I have loved the idea of only being with one person. I have enjoyed the commitment and the dedication. I never thought that I would ever be without her. The thought of leaving her never crossed my mind. If I had a wandering eye or felt tempted in the past maybe my desire to remain married wouldn't be so strong. I could live without her. I just don't want to.
I have felt lonely since the moment I found out about the affair. When I think of her I don't think of wanting romantic moments or having sex with her. I just want to hold her. Does that sound crazy?


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am getting my first little rollercoaster ride.
We haven't talked in two days. Despite the fact that I told you folks I would call her, I didn't.
My wife dropped by to pick up our son for the night. I had the computer ready for her. When she came in we kissed on the cheek and she said, "It is good to see you." I responded, "good to see you too." We chatted. Then we got the computer in the car and an extra filing cabinet I have that she could use as a dresser. I kissed her on the cheek and she said "I love you" before I could say it. I casually said I love you too. They drove off. Now I am feeling like I want romance!
Who is reading tea leaves out there?


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## Tanelornpete

> Who is reading tea leaves out there?


No need. The signs are good. Keep up the awesome work.


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## Affaircare

Sooooo...romance her a little. You are her husband! She has an address now. Send her some flowers "as a housewarming gift" or something. See...YOU are the one she is supposed to legally, ethically and morally connect with and be intimate with emotionally and physically! So for YOU is it okay because you are married. 

(The OM is another story--that's not legal, ethical or moral) 

If you got the vibe and believe she might be a little tiny bit receptive...a present right now would be "above and beyond" what the OM is doing according to her, and commendable. Woo her! Kindle that flame!


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## iamnottheonlyone

I just got the down slope on the rollercoaster. I knew it was coming so I didn't get hit by it too hard. From yesterday when she spontaneously said I love you to today when she didn't even say hello when she came in the house, it was a set back. But there was an added component. She left the suv double parked. I had to move the suv while she was in the house. She left her phone in the truck. A text came in on the phone (that's how I found that the phone was there.) The OM texted he was parking the jet. So she probably had him on her mind. 
I was really surprised when she said I love you yesterday. I did not expect it at all. But I have tried to keep it all in perspective. Nothing really changes until the affair is over.
Right after that I got a call from a friend. I hadn't talkied to her in two weeks. She thought that my wife was lying about renting from her boyfriend. That it probably is free. That he probably is helping her.
She still wants me to help with selling the suv. Why me?


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## Tanelornpete

Cake.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Yaeh. She's eating the cake and I'm eating the S***.


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## Tanelornpete

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Yaeh. She's eating the cake and I'm eating the S***.


Temporarily, my friend. Temporarily. Every day you create a better impression, and a bigger gap betwixt her and Other Man.

----------------
Now playing: Acoustic Alchemy - Trinity
via FoxyTunes


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## iamnottheonlyone

I got the little rollercoaster ride today. It was more difficult than I thought it would be. Nothing like the first couple weeks after finding out about the affair. Still troubling. After the little uptick the down swing felt like a free fall.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Tough sleeping last night. Got up early and read here. Yesterday just bugged me and got me all anxious. I know better. It was the "I love you" combined with her setting up house, moving things out of our house, that has me feeling like I did last month. Patience, patience, patience. She is not talking divorce.


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## Affaircare

I'm sorry you're having a tough time of it, IAM. By way of some encouragement, may I point you to this new article? What Happens In Affairland?

It is so hard to be patient, I know. Especially when you DON'T know exactly what she's doing over there. But know this: now the Love Extinguishers are coming from the OM, not you. And the Love Kindlers for your side are building. The grass is now greener on YOUR side. So after reading the article, stay with Choice One. I know it feels like it's eating at your heart but you are doing really WELL!! Stay the course and think of cmf. 

Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, would be to make a list of the reasons the grass is greener on YOUR side of the fence.


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## Wisp

As Affaicare said send her some flowers, get a tick in your box .

Intent is to get her to respond positively to you especially if she is with TOM. Perhaps something like the following:

Send her a text today something like.. Her Name: yesterday you seemed a little under the weather. Are you OK? “your name” . If she sends a text back saying she is fine reply with “OK , If you need to talk call me anytime. Love…


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## jar

I know how you are feeling having the same problems myself...

Affaircare I read your article thanks for righting it...It has helped me a bunch...I see the wife on facebook all the time she was on and off all day yesterday as late as midnight. Then she writes she had a great day at the beach. All that goes through my head was what beach who did you go with did you really go are you writing that just to get me going etc. Were you with the OM…The wondering is really tough...

JAR


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## Blue Moon

You really should cut your losses and get outta this thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone

AC, Thanks for the redirection. Jar, CMF and Iseem to all be on 
board with the Plan A positives. The negatives are the holding back not the contact that leads to disruption and love busters. Your article did help me focus, just now, on the importance of not quitting and waiting out the affair fog. When I am with my W, my emotional side just wants to rush up and hug her and tell her how much I love her. The thinking side says that would doom me. So I suffer by holding back and working on me while thinking of her.
I can look at cmf and see that the separate household did not destroy the marriage. It may well have helped. Even the two months of no contact probably was a great motivator for DS. All he could see was the OP and OP had the freedom to behave as herself.
Jar sits in that pergatory. It is the place he needs to be right now. There is no rush to divorce for JAR or me. CMF's progress shows that Plan A can work.
It took three months to hear "I love you" again. So I know she misses me. I need to keep my head down and keep moving forward.
Yesterday she did tell me a silly story about her having a blocked drain at the "shack". The tub wouldn't drain. She went to the store and bought Liquid Plumber. She poured it into the tub and it didn't work. When my son went onto the bathroom and saw the tub with the standing water, he pushed down the drain lever and the tub drained. I smiled about it but didn't laugh because I really wasn't comfortable. And I didn't respond. I felt uncomfortable because she was keeping her distance from me while she told me this story while standing on the street out in front of the suv. I didn't turn this into the positive experince that it should have been. Yesterday she was in such a rush I couldn't get the "funny/fun side" engaged. We never had toruble finding that side when we were out doing things. I will try my best on Tuesday when I see her for my son's game.


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## cmf

IANTOO- I actually think having the seperate households might have helped a bit- it showed my H that I could survive without him just fine and it was a reality check for how hard it is in the real world to maintain a household with all the comforts he was used to with a messy, uneducated waitress making little money. It also forced my husband to see how hard it was for me to handle all the bills all these years, now that he has had to do it alone. He has actually said to me that he couldn't beleive I have been doing all that I have without him, he felt I was too dependent on him . It was unfortunate that it took us going through all this to realize it. Hang in there, this really is the tough time waiting it out.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> AC, Thanks for the redirection. Jar, CMF and Iseem to all be on board with the Plan A positives. The negatives are the holding back not the contact that leads to disruption and love busters. Your article did help me focus, just now, on the importance of not quitting and waiting out the affair fog. When I am with my W, my emotional side just wants to rush up and hug her and tell her how much I love her. The thinking side says that would doom me. So I suffer by holding back and working on me while thinking of her.


Soooo...did you work on the list "Why The Grass Is Greener On My Side"? If you have not done that list yet--literally written a list--I suggest you do so today. Furthermore, you know that one of the ENORMOUS Love Extinguishers in your marriage is 20+ years of your estranged sister being on the deed while your own wife is not. Now I can see the legal reasons why this may not be the best time to ADD her...but wouldn't this be a GREAT time to put your money where your mouth is, find out if you can get a 2nd mortgage to buy out your sister, and at least get it all set so you could get her off the deed? Then at one of your "regularly scheduled meetings" with your wife, you can tell her "I know you told me to do this for YEARS but I finally get it, that I was hurting YOU but not listening and honoring another ahead of you...so I did all the research and I am able to remove her by doing XYZ. Since we agreed to be open and honest about our finances and agree to things together, I have not gone ahead and done it because I wanted to include you in the decision. What do you think? Would you agree to letting me finally do this to honor you ahead of every other?" 

Can you even IMAGINE the Love Kindler impact that could make? Not only did you finally "hear" her Love Extinguisher, but you made steps to ACT...and you waited to have a mutual united understanding with her, showing utmost respect. Like I said I can see why adding her on the deed might not be a smart legal move but going this far, well hey why NOT remove sis? Right? 

In Plan A/Carrot & Stick, it's not that there should be NO contact. It's that the contact you do have should have no Love Extinguishers and where you can it should contain Love Kindlers. What often happens is that the LS is so beset on every side that they can't resist the extinguisher, and that gives the DS the "excuse" to stay in the affair longer. 



> I can look at cmf and see that the separate household did not destroy the marriage. It may well have helped. Even the two months of no contact probably was a great motivator for DS. All he could see was the OP and OP had the freedom to behave as herself.


Yep you got it. Remember when we told you that your marriage can survive anger, it can't survive an active affair and third person in the marriage. Your marriage can survive living in separate households. In fact, it may be really good for you! YOU, may begin to appreciate some of what your wife contributed, and I have no doubt that she can also see a little bit more clearly some of the things you contributed. She can also see that what she thought of the OP in her 'affair-fantasy' and in reality are pretty different! 



> Jar sits in that pergatory. It is the place he needs to be right now. There is no rush to divorce for JAR or me. CMF's progress shows that Plan A can work.
> It took three months to hear "I love you" again. So I know she misses me. I need to keep my head down and keep moving forward.


I don't want to put pressure on cmf so that they 'have to' recover or so that if's two steps forward and one back that she feels bad...but if nothing else you can see that progress CAN be made! It's somewhat encouraging to see that light even if it is WAY down the tunnel! So there is no rush...in fact if anything this would be an excellent time to work on your more peaceful, drama-free...:lol: ZEN side! :lol: Work on any issues you might have like boundaries, expectations, control issues, etc. and practice establishing new boundaries around you, expressing your expectations, respecting and including others...and as you make mistakes, think of ways you could have done THAT better and then try THAT new way. 

And yeah--don't kid yourself for a minute. A disloyal spouse MISSES YOU. I deeply missed the Dear Hubby I had fallen in love with who thought so highly of me that he WANTED me...and I didn't know how to get to that guy anymore and in sort of a confused futility, just gave up trying. This is very likely where your disloyal is too...they wanted YOU for a long time but didn't know how or somehow just could not communicate to you that they needed that YOU back. 



> Yesterday she did tell me a silly story about her having a blocked drain at the "shack". The tub wouldn't drain. She went to the store and bought Liquid Plumber. She poured it into the tub and it didn't work. When my son went onto the bathroom and saw the tub with the standing water, he pushed down the drain lever and the tub drained. I smiled about it but didn't laugh because I really wasn't comfortable. And I didn't respond. I felt uncomfortable because she was keeping her distance from me while she told me this story while standing on the street out in front of the suv. I didn't turn this into the positive experince that it should have been. Yesterday she was in such a rush I couldn't get the "funny/fun side" engaged. We never had toruble finding that side when we were out doing things. I will try my best on Tuesday when I see her for my son's game.


IAM may I make a suggestion? On Tuesday, when you see her, rather than thinking of her as "the dearly beloved wife whom I miss beyond life itself who is cheating on me" and putting that level of deep emotional into it.... try to think of her as "the one person on the earth who really knows me and is my friend that I have fun with." Yes, both statements are true.  But if you put all that depth of emotion into it, you freeze and feel uncomfortable and it's a little like being with a wooden person. Know that feeling? Instead, think of her as the girl in college that you watched football games with, or the girl who goes to a baseball game with you--someone you can "kick back with" and is like a very dear old friend, and someone who is just so fun to hang out with and laugh and joke. If you can start making THOSE kind of connections--telling little funny stories and telling her you're proud of how much she's doing on her own--she will start to connect back. Get it?


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## Affaircare

You're an interesting person, AGAIG.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife and I spoke a few minutes ago about the suv. She is at the dealership having the oil changed. She wanted to know if she should ask them to buy it. I suggested she have them price it. We agreed the vehicle needs a lot of work but we could sell it for several thousand more then they would pay for it and make a profit.
I have been thinking (You know that's a dangerous thing) since AC suggested telling her I would put her on the deed, is there anything wrong with jointly working the vehicles as equal partners. Wouldn't that be a good place to start. These are the economic issues we have been dealing with in the background. I have a couple ideas about shared responsibility. However, I don't want to contirbute to the affair by picking up part of the bill. She is going to sell the suv anyway. I should be able to work out an enthusiatic agreement..using the Policy of Joint Agreement. I probably have a couple hours before she finishes. She is going to come by the house.
I would speak of all this as equal partners. I would suggest to her that if/once the affair ends then we would work together as equal partners on everything. And equal ownership. Everything we own or have would be "ours" not his or hers.
I' ll listen to any advice.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Now I get it. She is not around enough to market the truck. Either she is flying or she is at the boyfriend's place in NH. She NEEDS me to help her with this.


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## Wisp

I am with you on this, you do not want to finance the affair. By all means have a nice discussion but find a way to delay any financial changes even offering help on the SUV sale untill some else here can offer advice to the contrary.


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## Wisp

One more thing. During the conversation bring up if she is flying tomorrow, she can decline to answer but on your side it is polite conversation nothing more. If she is not invite her to join you for lunch, or under the pretext of looking at a solution for the SUV, see what happens.


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## iamnottheonlyone

She just called and wanted to know if I could switch cars while we try to sell the Explorer. She said the dealership would pay of the note and take the suv. Note is about $15K. I went to Autotrader.com and they priced it at $19K to $20K.


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## Wisp

No No No ..do not switch cars... you will absolutely be making it easier for her to carry on the affair. Carrot and stick , what has she done to rebuild the marriage

Why would you give a good car to drive to the OM for visitation and even maybe pick him up. 

A side note: I am not sure if you call the OM the boyfriend when you talk to your wife using OM or other man is perfectly reasonable.


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## Wisp

I suspect she needs the cash, walk her through the option that she may get more money if she is patient, Obviously a chance to meet her tomorrow


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## turnera

I don't see any benefit at this point to you trading cars or helping her out financially. Keep on track: If you end the affair and recommit to our marriage, we will work hand in hand on the bills, but I cannot help you while you are actively seeking to end my marriage.


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## Affaircare

I agree with turnera. The sister's name on the deed will not affect or enable the affair, but it is a big step toward addressing one of her issues. 

Helping her sell the car, trading cars...those would all be thing needs you would be willing and able to meet IF SHE CHOSE YOU AND THE MARRIAGE. So I would agree 100% with turnera: "If you want to choose to end the affair and return to the marriage, I would be happy to work with you hand-in-hand to sell this car and trade cars with you, but unfortunately I can not make the affair easier for you while you're actively trying to destroy our marriage. Would you like to end the affair and come home?"


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## iamnottheonlyone

I just spoke with her and suggested lunch today which she (haltingly) agreed to. I am trying to consider the equal partnership issue. I would be willing to let her have the Honda for around here. No more long trips with it. 

She called right after I wrote the above. I ran out to meet her. I got some advice on the ride over form my friend S. Don't give up the Honda. 

We met for lunch. We had some small talk and then started business. (We should have had more small talk.) I started the conversation and kept going. I refreshed the idea of enthusiastic agreement. She wasn't enthusiastic. We went over some options. I took notes. She just wanted to get rid of the suv as quickly as possible. She agreed if she had the Honda she would not take it on long trips. She was not enthusiastic about that. I offered her the Honda for today. She wouldn't take it. 

We then went out to the suv so that I could take pictures to post on Autotrader.com. The camera I had was one she bought for my last birthday. As we walked out of the restaurant I pulled it out an mentioned how happy I was with it. She said I was not and that was one of our big problems. I asked her to explain.

She said she spent a lot of time researching to find me a camera I would like. When she gave it to me, I clearly wasn't happy with it and I wouldn't return it. This made her very unhappy. This contributed to her deciding to move on. She felt she couldn't make me happy and I wouldn't try to be happy by getting a gift that I wanted and liked. She said I shut her down when she repeatedly suggested I get different camera. 

I explained to her that when she presented the gift to me she was so enthusiastic that I was boxed in. When she gave me the box, with my son there, she said, "You are absolutely going to love this." So I have the box in my hand, I can see how important it is to her, and I don't want to disappoint her. When I open it I can see it is not what I could use considering the cameras I have and it is expensive. I have NEVER returned anything she gave me unless it was clothes in the wrong size.

She told me today that she immediately sensed that I was not overjoyed. I used the camera at my son's game that week and it performed poorly. She said today that others that day could sense that I was not "happy" with the camera. This hurt her greatly.

She asked me why I kept it when I didn't like it. She started to cry. The crying continued on and off for the next five minutes as I discussed how I felt when she gave me the gift. I accepted the gift understanding how much effort she put in to getting it and how happy she was in giving it. That was more important to me then having a gift. It really was the thought that counted. But I didn't express that. I didn't want to hurt her feelings. I told her that now I know that I should have been honest. And she should have too. She continued to cry saying none of that matters now. I said it does because you are crying. I hugged her and said I tried to do the right thing but not being completely honest may have lead to a bad outcome.

My friend S says that if I had returned the gift that I probably would have been in the same boat. She was expecting that I would love the camera and I didn't. So her reaction would have been the same since I didn't really like the gift.

We agreed to talk in a day or two. She will be off to her boyfriend's place for 4 or 5 days. She said he is spending money on her. (He bought the lawnmower and the bed and is subsidizing her house.) I told her if she needs someone to mow the lawn I would be happy to do it for her. (The boyfriend didn't.) She seemed happily surprised.
I think I jumped the gun talking about enthusiastic agreement. It showed me to still be a bit vulnerable. All in all I think there were no love busters.


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## Wisp

Every day you are learning more, keep a journal so you do not forget.
She told you a lot today and you in turn have heard why she feels the way she does. 

The OM buying items is a question subsidizing the house I suspect implies a fair investment on his part, you need to gauge a view on this from the forum. Will help if you understand his outlay, guys do not invest money into something that will have no return. Perhaps she is paying rent that covers part the mortgage or/and he used her first payment to buy the items mentioned.


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## NotJustMe

I hate to say it, but in my opinion she is playing you like a fiddle, IANTOO. She is still having her cake and eating it too. While she is off playing house with her boyfriend for the next few days, she can relax knowing that you'll be at home diligently trying to sell her SUV for her, and maybe mowing her lawn.

Again, this is just my opinion, but I think you need to begin evaluating everything in the terms of whether or not it will help her continue the affair. If helping her get out from under the SUV makes continuation of the affair easier then don't do it for her. This pretty much goes for any action on your end that would make her life easier right now. We all know and agree that you shouldn't be trying to make her life more difficult, but everything I am reading here from you suggests that you may be forgetting the Stick part of the Carrot & Stick.

Stop enabling her. There is a fine line between changing your ways, eliminating love busters, etc., and turning yourself into a doormat, and going by what you've been writing, she has found that all she has to do is shed a few tears and you'll lie down and let her walk all over you.


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## turnera

Um...I don't think mowing her BOYFRIEND'S yard counts as Love Points, iantoo. You are making her new life easier. There are plenty of ways to meet her needs that are NOT about that new life. That would show that you have at least a certain level of dignity: I'll buy you a box of chocolates, but I'm not hanging up your curtains in your new house you're going to share with your boyfriend.

See the difference? Maybe affaircare sees it differently, but the way I see it, you are nice to her, but you IGNORE anything to do with her moving on.

I do have to say that I agree with her about the camera. My DH never likes anything I get him, but he also never takes it back. I bought him a gold/diamond ring one year, about 5-6 years ago, and it still sits in a box in the drawer. Never touched it. _What a waste!_ It is very humiliating, actually.

Then again, you could have been like my Evil Witch Stepmother who, when my dad bought her a $2000 sewing machine, went into hock to pay for it, and had tears in his eyes as she unwrapped it one Christmas, and she looked at it and said 'Oh, that's nice. It's not the one I wanted, but I'll make do.' You could see the knife sticking out of his back. Witch.


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## iamnottheonlyone

On the mowing the lawn thing, I was contrasting me with him. I would mow HER lawn and he would buy her a mower. I really did not expect she would have me come over to mow. I could have said , why can't he mow your lawn? I was trying to make her think about where the green grass is (lol).


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## cmf

IANTOO- I see where you are coming from with the lawn thing. I would be pissed if a man I was involved with bought me a new lawn mower to mow the yard . I would much rather he say" Let me mow the grass for you . I'll bring over my mower and do it so you don't have to be out in this heat". It shows more caring behavior in my opinion. 
I do agree with everyone else on the car thing. Why should she spend a long week-end out of town while you do all the work in making her affair easier. It's the fog..why else would she think this was Ok? Tell her why you wont help her, you dont want to make it easier for her to see him by making it cheaper on gas. If she weren't in such a fog, she would see that HE should be doing these things not you. It's not too late to back out, you basically told her what to do already. 
Your lunch today was very informative. I think you did well.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Its complicated. Why would I help her sell the suv? I think I have seen benefits since we began talking about it. In the past 10 days she has been more open about how she was thinking as she started to move away from me emotionally. I see this as a partly fog explanation, but in combination with factors it contributed to her lack of commitment to our marriage. We would work together in selling the suv. She can see that we can work as equal partners. She may discount this now but it is progress towards proof of my commitment to a stronger relationship. 
She NEEDS me to help. I will help to sell the suv when it is here. But when she travels to NH to see OM she will have to take the suv. That means more cost to her and less time to market. As far as she is concerned I am not directly interfering with that relationship as a stick but protecting the mileage limit of the Honda.
Furthermore we will work together over the next couple of weeks or months.
And here is the last element. In my mind they do not spend enough time together in real life situations. So here I am the BS hoping my W can spend more time with the OM. The exposure burst the bubble. They live apart. I don't want to enable the affair by making life for them easier. The more time they spend together the more warts that will be exposed. She is still setting up the household.
She tried to put a positive spin on mowing the lawn. She said she never had a yard. Those of you that had a yard growing up may recall walking next to dad as he mowed. I would ask if I could do it. It looked like fun. He woouldn't let me until I was old enough. Then it became my job. It was the last thing I wanted to do. She should be done "enjoying" the yard work by the end of the summer. She thinks that my son will step up and help out. I don't think he will have any interest in helping around the house. He will be lucky if he stays there once a week.
I slept well last night. Only a couple of minutes of anxiety. Patience, patience, patience. I have a long way to go.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

IANTOO-I used to be a first-class enabler, and see that same thing in what you are talking about right now. Mowing the OM's yard?? No way!! If she rented the house from some random stranger, well, OK. IMO the image of you cutting that grass is not a good one. Screams doormat to me. Personally, there are ways to do love-enhancing things for her that have nothing to do with her living situation (like the gift certificate for a mani-pedi, etc.) I have mixed feelings on the SUV thing.

I think the stage where you are is really difficult. You see glimmers of hope, but the affair continues. It is easy to over analyze, and spend WAY too much time focusing on their activities. Few among us haven't been there. It feels really, really awful. You will get to the point where you wonder _if they deserve you!! _ That confidence (not arrogance) is what they will find attractive.


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## Wisp

Reading all your posts again, Don't do anything that enables her, if the SUV costs more to run - her problem. If the OM wants to pay for the gas his problem, if she pays for the gas - her problem , if the lawn is not mowed her problem, if the pipes burst in the house (one hopes they do) her problem.

Do not advertise the SUV for sale, if she sells it for less, tough to her.

If she stops the affair you can decide what to do. 

In your post you imply you would want her to spend more time with the OM to help break this up - I say let things go as they are, the travel the lack of commitment etc.. will cause her stress. At some point something has to give.


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## Blue Moon

NotJustMe said:


> I hate to say it, but in my opinion she is playing you like a fiddle, IANTOO. She is still having her cake and eating it too. While she is off playing house with her boyfriend for the next few days, she can relax knowing that you'll be at home diligently trying to sell her SUV for her, and maybe mowing her lawn.
> 
> Again, this is just my opinion, but I think you need to begin evaluating everything in the terms of whether or not it will help her continue the affair. If helping her get out from under the SUV makes continuation of the affair easier then don't do it for her. This pretty much goes for any action on your end that would make her life easier right now. We all know and agree that you shouldn't be trying to make her life more difficult, but everything I am reading here from you suggests that you may be forgetting the Stick part of the Carrot & Stick.
> 
> Stop enabling her. There is a fine line between changing your ways, eliminating love busters, etc., and turning yourself into a doormat, and going by what you've been writing, she has found that all she has to do is shed a few tears and you'll lie down and let her walk all over you.


Thank you, that's what I've been trying to say also. It is absolutely ridiculous for you to mow her "boyfriend's" lawn while she's married to you. You think you're one upping him but in reality they'll likely have a good laugh about that in bed. If you're trying to save your relationship then by all means do it. But you're really bending over backwards right now for a woman who doesn't deserve it and is completely unrepentant and manipulative. There comes a point where you have to realize you're inviting poison into your life and household by playing her game.


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## Tanelornpete

Iam - it's called _Carrot and *STICK*_ for a reason! You do the things that build up your relationship - but DON'T do things that enable the affair!

Step 5) Carrot & Stick In this phase you focus on two things: work on yourself to be the person you once were who attracted your spouse again AND allow your disloyal to experience the natural consequences of their choices. You work on yourself by eliminating the things that extinguished love between you two (like judging, angry explosions, enough is never enough) and by re-starting the things that kindled love between you two (like romantic doo-dads). You need to do BOTH...but eliminating love extinguishers is the most important of the two. The idea here is that the disloyal is getting some of their needs met by the Other Person but you want them to see that you do "get it" and that you are an attractive alternative able to meet their needs. The second part is about NATURAL consequences. This doesn't mean that you punish the disloyal, but rather, nope--you are not leaving the house so they can move their lover in. If the disloyal wants to be with their lover, they'll need to move out and nope the kids do not go with them. There is no reason for the children to leave their home, their bed, their neighborhood, their friends, their school because the disloyal is with the OP--so a natural consequence there is that the disloyal loses some time with their children. That's the cost of choosing to have an affair and what WILL happen if they choose to divorce. Allow them to experience that hurt because it will teach them faster that affairs HURT and cost A LOT!!

You should know that this step is not "long term" because no one can give and give and give forever when an affair is being rubbed in their face. Eventually the time would come for you to say, "I've done what I could to win you over and now I need to move to the next step before I lose all love for you." Sometimes a disloyal spouse sort of sits on the fence in this step because they are getting needs met by two folks. On the occasion there are disloyal spouses whose affair just die a natural death--like the Other Person just gets sick of it and leaves them--or they begin to see the good of staying and how much leaving would hurt...and they think maybe that too much water has passed under the bridge. Periodically let your disloyal know that you would love to have them back and work on the marriage. Invite them to return. If this is your case, consider yourself blessed and move to the phase of recovering your marriage!! If it is not, move to step 6.​


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## iamnottheonlyone

So let me repeat this. I NEVER intended to mow the lawn. I did not and do not expect her to ask me too. I was simply making a point about her boyfriend's shortcomings. The direct statement would have been, "If I were him I would be mowing the lawn for you. It is a difficult chore and one your boyfriend should insist on doing." I just put it another way to make her think about the green grass. And her jaw did drop. 
Tonight we met at my son's game. No relationship discussion. But plenty of talk. After the game she asked if we could go to dinner. So off we went. At dinner she mentioned she had talked to a couple of our mutual friends this past week. She talked of her household chores. No washer and dryer. She has to go to the laundramat. 
Dinner was much like every other dinner we have had together. We sat outside a bit before heading home as it was such a beautiful night. I tossed out a few complements which she seemed to appreciate. As we were living she asked if I would mind her taking a chair from home to use at her computer table. I said I did mind but that it was okay. She smirked.
I had to fuel up the Honda so she went directly home and picked up the chair. The only downer was that she left before I got home and she didn't call to thank me. (She did thank me for dinner earlier.) No love busters is the best I can say. It was a nice night. If she wasn't having an affair I would have found it quite a bit more pleasant and enjoyable. 
My son's girlfriend then called wanting him to go with her to NYNY tomorrow. That would mean missing a day of work with out notice. Also it would mean missing a payday. So we worked out a deal. He is a certified Little League umpire. I had him call the league president and pick up two games next week.
I then called my wife and explained the situation. She approved and thought my solution was creative and appropriate. (She was at the laundromat.) I hung up with a "Luv You." I expect she will be off to the mountains tomorrow.
I have taken to calling her honey all the time again. There has been no objection. I have also taken to occasionally ending a phone call with "Luv You." It is my way. I don't see the harm as long as I am confident.


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## Affaircare

> ... we then went out to the suv so that I could take pictures to post on Autotrader.com. The camera I had was one she bought for my last birthday. As we walked out of the restaurant I pulled it out an mentioned how happy I was with it. She said I was not and that was one of our big problems. I asked her to explain.
> 
> She said she spent a lot of time researching to find me a camera I would like. When she gave it to me, I clearly wasn't happy with it and I wouldn't return it. This made her very unhappy. This contributed to her deciding to move on. She felt she couldn't make me happy and I wouldn't try to be happy by getting a gift that I wanted and liked. She said I shut her down when she repeatedly suggested I get different camera.
> 
> I explained to her that when she presented the gift to me she was so enthusiastic that I was boxed in. When she gave me the box, with my son there, she said, "You are absolutely going to love this." So I have the box in my hand, I can see how important it is to her, and I don't want to disappoint her. When I open it I can see it is not what I could use considering the cameras I have and it is expensive. I have NEVER returned anything she gave me unless it was clothes in the wrong size.


IAM, you need to practice this over and over--and I want you to practice it on me when I'm done writing to you tonight. She just told you how she felt. She did all this research ... put lots of effort in ... she saw you were unhappy... AND SHE FELT LIKE SHE COULDN'T MAKE YOU HAPPY so why try anymore. And she said you shut her down when she suggested returning it. 

How did you respond. Did you validate what she felt and say you could understand how she'd feel that way? Nope. You ...EXPLAINED. (See cmf's thread about men explaining  ) Explaining does not help! Here's what would have helped:

"It sounds like you're saying you could never make me happy and I wouldn't be honest with you about my happiness...and you tried very hard to make me happy bit no matter what I still wasn't. Is that how you felt?" 

Do you see how you take what SHE said and mirror it back to her? Don't explain WHY ... tell her what you heard her say. Beneath this reply, I want you to MIRROR what I just said to you. Please start with "It sounds like you're saying..." 

Now IAM, I am going to tell you a personal story about Tanelorn and I. Tanelorn is an amazing artist. He is a painter, a photographer, and a graphic artist, as well as a musician playing several instruments and writing. I have my creative moments but comparatively speaking, he is an artistic genius. However, we are not financially wealthy. He has some photographic equipment he has collected over the years that we saved for that is VERY expensive and that I do not understand in the least. :lol: However, what I did know was that with all his fancy equipment, he didn't have a digital camera...AND that getting a little $39.00 camera at Walmart wouldn't cut it. So I saved and saved, and I did all kinds of research about pixels and zoom and LCD displays, and among all the cameras in our local area, I selected one. It sounds a bit like the kind of thing your wife did--REALLY put effort into it and tried hard to *thrill* him! So on Christmas day, he opened the camera and from what I could tell he did like it enough to act like "he could work with it" and I had visions of him being artistic with this special gift I had saved and saved for. Instead, he gave it to one of the kids who tied it to one of our pets who drug it through the house and destroyed it, and we never ever have taken even one picture with the camera that cost me a years' worth of my saving, planning, research, and effort. 

Now IAM, when something like this happens, it is a blow because it has the effect of saying, "YOU are not worth something special to me." If you got the camera and it really was not something you could use considering the equipment you do have, but it was special that she spent so much time--you know what would have been PERFECT? "Honey I see that you put in so much time and effort into this wanting to get me just the perfect thing. Can we go together and I'll teach you all about my equipment and then show you the things that would go with my stuff perfectly? We can spend the whole day together sharing my interest in cameras, and I can even show you how to shoot some too if you want to try. Do you want to? Let's go together and get the exact thing you were trying to get for me." Know why? That acknowledges her effort, is grateful for her loving research, it's spending time together and teaching her what *would* make you happy, it's mutual, it's considerate, and in the end it actually, really makes you happy! You would do that little squeal of joy and THAT is what she wants! Get it? 

Now... mirror that back to me. Start with "It sounds like you're saying..." 



> She asked me why I kept it when I didn't like it. She started to cry. The crying continued on and off for the next five minutes as I discussed how I felt when she gave me the gift. I accepted the gift understanding how much effort she put in to getting it and how happy she was in giving it. That was more important to me then having a gift. It really was the thought that counted. But I didn't express that. I didn't want to hurt her feelings. I told her that now I know that I should have been honest. And she should have too. She continued to cry saying none of that matters now. I said it does because you are crying. I hugged her and said I tried to do the right thing but not being completely honest may have lead to a bad outcome.


Can you see now why she cried? You didn't validate what she felt, you explained, she didn't make you happy (aka to her...failed) and you wouldn't let her fix it. 

 Okay---whenever you're ready, mirror away.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Its complicated. Why would I help her sell the suv? I think I have seen benefits since we began talking about it. In the past 10 days she has been more open about how she was thinking as she started to move away from me emotionally. ...We would work together in selling the suv. She can see that we can work as equal partners. She may discount this now but it is progress towards proof of my commitment to a stronger relationship.


Possible good point here. But here's one question I have for ya IAM. You are in Carrot & Stick stage, right? In this stage here are the questions you can ask yourself, in order: 

1) Does this action enable the affair?
If Yes--don't do it
If No--go to #2

2) Does this action mitigate a consequence of DS's choices?
If Yes--don't do it
If No--go to #3

3) Does this action extinguish love or resort to old behaviors?
If Yes--don't do it
If No--Okay go ahead and do it. 

Get it? I think helping her sell the SUV because she can't afford to drive it to see her lover...yeah that enables the affair -AND- mitigates the consequences of DS's choices. 



> She NEEDS me to help. I will help to sell the suv when it is here. But when she travels to NH to see OM she will have to take the suv. That means more cost to her and less time to market. As far as she is concerned I am not directly interfering with that relationship as a stick but protecting the mileage limit of the Honda.


Reality check, IAM. She does not NEED your help. She is a fully grown, mature, adult woman, perfectly capable of finding out how to sell her car on her own. If she doesn't know, she can find out. She is able to do math and she find out what the note is on the SUV and she can sell it for what she wants from it. Seriously--you are not required in this, especially if she wants to sell it so she can buy a car with better mpg so she can visit her lover easier!!!!!! 



> Furthermore we will work together over the next couple of weeks or months.


If you absolutely insist on interfering where you really have no business (and by the way--has there been any movement on removing your sister from the deed? Now THERE'S something you could do to demonstrate you hear her, that also will not contribute to the affair; I'm just saying) I would recommend that you tell her right out: "We could work on this together as a team if you'd like to end your affair and come home. I would welcome you, ya know." Then if she will not, TEACH HER HOW TO DO IT HERSELF, and then take your hands off the wheel, let her do what she decides to do, recognize that it does not have to be your way, and let her know you're proud she can do it herself but you disagree with her choice to continue the infidelity. 



> And here is the last element. In my mind they do not spend enough time together in real life situations. So here I am the BS hoping my W can spend more time with the OM. The exposure burst the bubble. They live apart. I don't want to enable the affair by making life for them easier. The more time they spend together the more warts that will be exposed. She is still setting up the household.
> She tried to put a positive spin on mowing the lawn. She said she never had a yard. Those of you that had a yard growing up may recall walking next to dad as he mowed. I would ask if I could do it. It looked like fun. He woouldn't let me until I was old enough. Then it became my job. It was the last thing I wanted to do. She should be done "enjoying" the yard work by the end of the summer. She thinks that my son will step up and help out. I don't think he will have any interest in helping around the house. He will be lucky if he stays there once a week.


You know--you are doing a very good job of showing her the grass is greener on your side, and she is becoming more and more aware of the fact that you have a lot of love kindlers to offer. You do not necessarily want to "push the lovers together"--your goal is to END THE AFFAIR as fast as possible. Thus, if she can see that without having to live with him...COOL!! If she can see he's NOT buying her gifts, NOT mowing her yard, NOT giving her a house with A/C or laundry...and she wants to end the affair...COOL!! Get it?


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## Affaircare

> So let me repeat this. I NEVER intended to mow the lawn. I did not and do not expect her to ask me too. I was simply making a point about her boyfriend's shortcomings. The direct statement would have been, "If I were him I would be mowing the lawn for you. It is a difficult chore and one your boyfriend should insist on doing." I just put it another way to make her think about the green grass. And her jaw did drop.


Thanks for this clarification. This is a lot different than what it sounded like you said. 




> Tonight we met at my son's game. No relationship discussion. But plenty of talk. After the game she asked if we could go to dinner. So off we went. At dinner she mentioned she had talked to a couple of our mutual friends this past week. She talked of her household chores. No washer and dryer. She has to go to the laundramat.
> Dinner was much like every other dinner we have had together. We sat outside a bit before heading home as it was such a beautiful night. I tossed out a few complements which she seemed to appreciate. As we were leaving she asked if I would mind her taking a chair from home to use at her computer table. I said I did mind but that it was okay. She smirked.
> I had to fuel up the Honda so she went directly home and picked up the chair. The only downer was that she left before I got home and she didn't call to thank me. (She did thank me for dinner earlier.) No love busters is the best I can say. It was a nice night. If she wasn't having an affair I would have found it quite a bit more pleasant and enjoyable.


This sounds STUNNING. Very, *VERY* good job! Now send flowers or a card: "Thank you for a wonderful evening together. I very much enjoyed your company. It was fun to be with you and I can only hope I charmed you as much as you charmed me." 



> I then called my wife and explained the situation. She approved and thought my solution was creative and appropriate. (She was at the laundromat.) I hung up with a "Luv You." I expect she will be off to the mountains tomorrow.
> I have taken to calling her honey all the time again. There has been no objection. I have also taken to occasionally ending a phone call with "Luv You." It is my way. I don't see the harm as long as I am confident.


I see no reason to NOT call her honey. She is your wife. And I see no reason to NOT say "luv you" because you do.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am not so sure this was stunning. We were with our son. I believe much of the motivation was to spend time with him. It was positive because she asked this time, I asked last time. Maybe you could help me see this a little clearer. I am having trouble with the flowers and card as it would seem needy. Maybe something to decorate her place? I framed picture? Do you really think romantic is a good idea while the affair is in full bloom? Can you explain?
Can I get back to the camera issue. And more importantly the validation issue. When she started crying it was as I explained how much I cared about the time and effort she put into finding this gift. So my explanation struck a chord. She cried more as I explained that my thoughts were about how happy she was giving the gift. And in that moment all I was thinking about was her happiness. In the back of my mind was the "rejection" thought. Rejection is a love buster. She cried more as I suggested that we both mishandled this because we were not totally honest. After 21 years together we still hid things from each other. I said that has to stop. I said I will be as totally honest as I can. She cried more saying it doesn't matter now. And I said it clearly does or you wouldn't be crying. This was only our second opportunity to discuss problems in our elationship and both happened this week. 
So I think I have halted my slide. She hasn't heard "the tone" in my voice for weeks. However, the affair moves on. We know there are some things that must be accumulating as life for her is a daily struggle compared to when she was home. 
I have to talk about her NEEDS again. The number one need identified with her is financial. By helping her with the car and working as a team she can see that I don't leave her hanging alone. She has said that she felt abandoned with these financial obligations. She has asked for my help. If she needs a hug I would give it to her. But that is a need, at least on the surface, she insist can be met somewhere else. I don't want her to go to someoneelse for this need. I did "stick" her by not letting her take the Honda. She is going to get another car at some point. If I don't help she will simply dump the suv. Then the opportunity to work rogether is gone.
We did have some discussion on the suv last night and the things I did over the past day or two working with a couple of my friends and the dealer impressed her. She never liked doing any of this stuff related to the suv. She could have asked her boyfriend to help. She didn't. As I thought at first she was trying to manipulate me to get the Honda I had my doubts as to why she would want my help. But she is not getting the Honda. Now she can only have my help.


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## iamnottheonlyone

AC, you may be right and I didn't see it. I was stunned when checked my voicemail this morning. My W left message which went sometning like this. Thank you for dinner last night. That was very kind of you. I enjoyed my time with son and you. Thank you for letting me take the chair. See you soon.
I called her back around noon. Chances were she wouldn't pick up the phone as she was likely with OM. I left a an appreciatice message. She is likely up there until the end of the week. I will send her a card , per your advice, with a light hearted poem.
So she is seeing the changes. She now needs to know they are sincere and lasting. That will some time. Up the rollercoaster.


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## iamnottheonlyone

For the past week there have been positive signs that my wife is coming out of the fog. I feel a bit more appreciated. In responce to my wife's phone call saying she enjoyed dinner with me, I sent a card. I wrote a lighthearted poem about life and put it in the card. Since she is likely "Vacationing" at her boyfriend's she won't get it for a few days. There is no sense calling her as she won't pick up while with him. And I am refecting text messaging as too impersonal.
Last night a did not have an anxious moment. In fact I slept longer than ususal. I didn't need the TV on to distract because I did not think of her. So I am responding fairly typically. It is 3 months since D-day. As it is suggested in other postings and writings I am questioning in the back of my mind if she really deserves me. I am doing a lot of things with friends. I am in the best shape I have been on 25 years. I am playing the guitar again. What is OP doing to change his life for the better?
I would say real progress will come if when she leaves his place she contacts me. She seems to be having serious second thoughts. Rollercoaster!


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## Wisp

Keep on track

“As it is suggested in other postings and writings I am questioning in the back of my mind if* she really deserves me*. I am still distracted on occassion.”

Your answer is Yes – I would say *do you really deserve her* - she needs to come to the same answer as you. 

Keep changing yourself for the better.

Lots of luck


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## Blue Moon

iamnottheonlyone said:


> As it is suggested in other postings and writings I am questioning in the back of my mind if she really deserves me.


This is the key question. You've been spending time alone to better yourself. If at some point her affair comes crashing down I wouldn't advise taking her back until and IF she proves that she's deserving of it. She stepped out of the marriage and the trust that she broke needs to be repaired or your relationship will be in shambles after the new honeymoon period. Yes, you want her back, but keep in mind that you're a catch also and she needs to live up to your standards if you're going to live up to hers.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Well, I have to get to that point first. I do expect it will happen if I stay the course.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Day Four of her five days off for my W. As expected, she has spent none of it with her son. She most likely has been in NH with the boyfriend. She has called to speak with him. But not to me. I am in Plan A but not initiating contact unless I have something to say. So I guess I am getting "my wish". W is spending alot of time with OM. Hopefully it is reality setting in and not improving their relationship. Only time will tell.
I had another good day,not thinking of her much. I slept quite well. Still having trouble giving full focus to work.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My son spent the afternoon with one of his friends here at home. He just left to go to the beach and dinner with his friend. He says my W called him to stay with her tonight. He was not enthusiastic. He says he will make up his mind about 7:30. 
I am feeling lonely and a little anxious. I did get invited to hike in the White Mountains this weekend but with W gone and my son around I was not in position to do it. I guess I need to make sure that I get out with those friends so I don't lose them. Now I'm by myself. A deep breath. Chant the mantra: patience, patience, patience. I don't speak divorce.
I'll hit the gym and the driving range. I am also learning some new tunes on the guitar.
I asked my son if he'd like to hit the beach and boogie board tomorrow. He hasn't decided.


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## turnera

Can your son go hiking with you?


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## iamnottheonlyone

He didn't have any friends that were interested in hiking. He had made plans ahead of time and didn't let me know. That's not a problem. I'll take the time I have with him before the time with my friends.
I am going to ask my wife if we can all go to the beach together today. No expectations. (Although I will be disappointed if she doesn't want to.)


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## iamnottheonlyone

Down side of the rollercoaster. She came to pick up our son up for the afternoon. She was not in a friendly mood. She grabbed a bag from the closet and she grabbed some more of her personal stuff. A couple jewelry boxes and some other things I didn't see her take. So the week must have gone well with the OM. I gave her a kiss on the cheek on the way out the door.
My son appears to not want to be with her. She is calling him spoiled. Her wouldn't stay over her place last night and didn't want to stay there tonight. But he will. 
He told her this morning that he didn't want to leave early so that he and I could have brunch after I got back from my early morning golf. That is his favorite meal. So, again, I think there was some resentment on her part
Unfortunately for me, W looked great today. All fit, trim and tan. Very attreactive. 
She could have taken a lot more things but did not. I can't figure that out. Apparently my lighthearted card had little affect. She took some blank cards from one of our storage boxes. So I probably gave her an idea to send something. Maybe notes to her eztranged friends. At least I don't feel as badly now as I would have a month ago when I got the cold shoulder. 
I think she is going to have our son help her with things in her place today. He would not be looking forward to that. Even if he isn't put to work, the beach he would go to by her house offers nothing to do. As he clearly doesn't view it as his home or neighborhood, to him it is just a lost day. I think she is blaming me for my son's attitude. She is not taking responsibility for hurting him. He doesn't want to discuss his mom at all with me. However, he is clearly making a call as to who he wants to be with. He was very reluctant to go with her today.
Who knows how to read this? Tea leaves. No progress until the affair ends. She didn't pull away when I went to kiss her. If she were still with me, this attitude I would just let pass and accept it. But now it eats at me. Plan A is so hard at times like these. And I know with some contact it feels better than nothing. Unlike JAR I have some contact so that she can see changes. 
I know this is a long road. The real problem today is just the sequence. 1- stay 4 days with boyfriend. 2- take stuff.
Mantra- patience, patience, patience. I don't talk divorce. Plan A is for me, right?


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

I'm not sure I understand why he has to stay at his mom's place. I can see them spending some time together, but:

1. she left
2. she has a boyfriend
3. he is an older teenager with his own social life

You have no legal document saying she "gets" him for XX amount of time. Why does he HAVE to spend the night?? Tough if she doesn't like it that her son is unhappy with her. My 16 y/o son was only at my H's apt. once, and only briefly.

Did I miss something - or is this another example of a disloyal wanting their cake and eating it, too?


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

And she is calling HIM spoiled??


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## Wisp

Keep focused, punting for you..


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## iamnottheonlyone

We all recognized the disloyal dizziness. My W and I had a discussion a couple weeks ago about her relationship with her son. She was blaming me for poisoning his mind. I felt it was time to be forthright and not hold my tongue. I told her he felt abandoned by her. That he felt betrayed. All the things we as parents had taught him about honesty and loyalty and family she had simply discarded for her own selfish desires. I expected him to act this way towards her. I am proud of him. That is why I will do my best to keep my vows.
Yes, she is the spoiled one. She is the one acting like the 7 year old. 
To some degree life has become more difficult because I know my marriage can be saved. I forgave my wife on D-day because I understand human nature and knowing I had contributed to her behavior. Whatever happens, as long as I maintain my values, the ones I have taught my child, I can feel I did my best. No shame in that. I asked her last week to forgive me and she will not. Based on that responce maybe she is not the person I should be with. I will ask her again in due time. I have some waiting to do.
Wisp, Do I really deserve her? Well I probably didn't, given that I was not providing what she needed and someoneelse was willing.


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## cmf

IANTOO- My H called my children spoiled too when they didn't want to be around him and OW. It's all dizzy talk. I wouldn't make him stay with her unless you just need a break. Seeing what she has done to her son is a natural consequence of the affair and the fact that he doesn't want to have to spend time with her to releive her guilt should be something she has to face. It helps shatter the fog.


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## iamnottheonlyone

CMF- Thanks for your post. It is always great to hear from you. JAR and I are in the same boat, just on different decks. Hearing from you and NEVERWHG is inspiring and stablizing to me and I would think JAR feels the same way. As you know, some days can be more difficult than others. Your steady hand is greatly appreciated. I expect more difficult days ahead as my W settles into her new home and her relationship with OM.


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## cmf

This to me was the hardest time. Watching them start a new life without you and their children. Initially I was having my children go to his new place, but they didn't like it and he needed to see that. We had nothing in writing and so I just stopped letting him take them there, he was very angry, hateful, made all kinds of threats, but he did not follow through with any of it. I was the one that initiated legal action. These are the tough times IANTOO, I know. Reconciliation is a slow process too. I'm still not sure if our marriage can be saved, we continue to live apart, but this past month has been mostly positive and we have all spent more time together. Just reached the 9 months point. I'll keep you updated...hang in there.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I don't think my son wants to be there. I tinik she is going to have him do some of her chores..like mowing the lawn. It is not his home. I will tell him that it is his choice as to whether he goes and what he does when he is there.
I was just thinking that my wife may have grabbed those cards to send out "invitations" of some sort. Maybe she will have a housewarming party at the shack. I couldn't get her to share in house cleaning at home, it will be interesting to see how long it takes to grow old on her.


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## cmf

That situation actually upsets me to hear..it is not her son's responsibility to do her chores because of her choices. If anything the OM should be doing those things, or she should do them herself. I hope he is able to tell her that she made the choice to live there and leave , so she can deal with ALL the chores..alone. Sorry, it just amazes me how self centered the disloyals are when in the fog. I remember it all too well.


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## iamnottheonlyone

It turned out my son spent at least a couple hours trimming shrubs. My in-laws were helping including my sister-in-law. So I explained to my son about the carrot and the stick. He did not have a choice in helping. She is his mom. I told him how upset I was that she would spend 4 days with someone elses kids. He said she offerd to stick around but he told her he was busy and didn't have time for her. I said that W wanted better communication. However she is not sharing anything. I explained Plan A to him. He was more interested than usual. However he was frustrated that he could not do more. He is a realyl good kid.
She called this morning after she dropped our son off at work. She said she was calling just to let me know he was there. She also said she couldn't play in the golf tournament we are invited to play. I told her the date had changed. I expect she will "be working". I asked her if she wanted to get a coffee. She did not. It turned out I had to work this morning in her new neighborhood. I called her to see if I could take her to lunch. She was busy painting. Politely declined.
I won't see her tomorrow as my son is skipping his game for his driving class. I don't expect to see her for some time. Patience, Patience, Patience. I don't speak divorce.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Maybe others could weigh in on their throughts here, but I think at this point in time I would not ask her to join you for coffee, lunch, etc. Take at least a couple of weeks off so that she can get the vibe that you are moving forward - on your own for now. Really, in time I truly believe that will drive her nuts. So think about limiting calls to those that are essential. I know this is really hard to do, but it is human nature to want what seems just out of reach. Also, I know from experience how crappy rejection from your own spouse feels. 

Lastly, I suggest keeping your game plan somewhat to yourself. Maybe speak of Plan A with your son as "I'm going to make myself her best option, and if it doesn't workout, I'll be be an awesome BF/spouse for someone else down the road." Kids will innocently let stuff slip and you don't want her to think you are manipulating her. You still have good friends/family that you can confide in. Just my opinions.....


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Something seems wierd to me. Unless he gave her a great deal on the rent, it would be easier to rent an apt. where there is no yardwork, you usually move into a well-cleaned unit, etc. I think this "extra" work will wear on her soon. Seriously, it is HIS property, so why weren't the shrubs being trimmed before this? Heck, it almost seems like he is using her to "fix-up" the place for a year at no expense to him. Not very attractive....


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## Tanelornpete

> I think this "extra" work will wear on her soon. Seriously, it is HIS property, so why weren't the shrubs being trimmed before this? Heck, it almost seems like he is using her to "fix-up" the place for a year at no expense to him. Not very attractive....


I get the same impression: my guess is that he sees her as a sort of 'meal ticket' - they are 'working together' to improve his property, and buy him nice stuff, etc....as long as she pays.....


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## iamnottheonlyone

I don't plan on asking her for another lunch unless we need to sit down. She just seemed to be hanging on the phone in the morning. And since I was in the neighborhood I thought it was the right thing to do to ask her to lunch. We aren't enemies. She knows I love her and I am not quitting. And I am not going to bug her as I know she has no romantic interest in me right now.
Is she really thankful for her new home? If we had been out looking for a house she would never, ever be willing to do what she is doing now. We talked about investment properties years ago and she was totally against it. She didn't want the work. See what the fog does to people. It is the fog, isn't it?


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## iamnottheonlyone

Sure, my anxiety level is much lower than 3 months ago. I get by well during the day. The early mornings before I get out of bed are troubling. 
Harley has written that most women can do a Plan A about 2 weeks. Men can go as long as 6 months. I don't know if I am strong enough to get past 6 months, nevermind another month. It sure feels like the burnout of the affair is going to take longer than 6 months. After my wife moved into the OM's extra house and she told me she signed a year's lease, in my mind I settled on a year as my limit.
This homemaking is taking its toll. the vision in my head of my son working to trim the OM bushes is eating at me. CMF said this period of homemaking was her toughest time. She wasn't with us then. Maybe I know too much now. I want to see the decay in the affair, What I see is my W doing things she was never willing to do for her own family.
I know I don't want a divorce. At all. I know I need to be patient. But these changes eat at me. Also the first of the tempting little rollercoaster rides has had an impact.


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## Wisp

I need to lay this on the line for you, by saying SORRY up front. I DO absolutely support you.... 

Please do not comment as this is for you to absorb and get your mind firmed up. Perhaps is me venting on your behalf….

You must have done something that seriously affected her; yes you have acknowledged some of this already and are working on a plan to change yourself.

Your wife has firmed up and is thinking through this or getting dam good advice from someone. 

Your wife has an OM, she has moved out and is doing things that she would never do at home. She has a plan and is on track….

Her family must be in on this or know what is happening in some detail; they would not be silent partners in their daughter’s move and relationship with the OM.

She says she has a years lease signed, this is part of her plan to buy time to get herself independent. With or without you or the OM, at the moment the OM is attractive who knows in the future holds.

You have said somewhere in your threads that you were “satisfied” (cannot think of the correct word here) as a year gives you time to recover your marriage, I am OK with the marriage part NOT OK with the year part.

You have a plan A and probably a plan B ready. Have clear timelines when you activate what, they must be run to schedule be flexible if there is a change for the better, if not keep on schedule. Know these time periods to the exact date. 

I am not being funny but some of what she is doing appears to be from someone determined to move on. Apart from the crying breakdowns that makes you feel like she is opening up, indeed she is at times but when she is not with you there is a steady course. 

So what to do:

You are working on yourself, physical and mentally – if not get fit, keep your mind occupied with good things this will put you in a good frame of mind each and every time you deal with anyone, smile a lot its contagious. All of these become a habit and she will notice put it down to you loving her and changing for the better. 

Do all her friends know explicitly that she is having an affair? Do her co-workers know she is having and affair and more importantly do they all know your consistent message “that you love her, you are changing and she can return home if she stops the affair”

Look at my post “07-25-2010, 09:39 AM” in the thread below pick out the good parts that you think will be of benefit to you, do not pull the full 180 on her,take the parts that improve you, this I purely to build yourself up and be very confident, regardless what happens in your marriage it will benefit you. Always assume the worst at least if there is a kicking it does not hurt as much and the only direction is UP.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/15120-what-love-woman-3.html#post169413

A lot of what you wrote about the OM is second or third hand information: I assume you have his mobile (you saw text messages), know his name, know his place of work, address (you mentioned the GPS) , who his Boss is and does he work for the same company as your wife or affiliated, what state is his current place of residence in, does he own it or is he renting. He is a pilot has he got a published flight schedule. Do his kids stay over, what is their schedule. etc.. be careful here you are not want to have a charge against you. What I am saying is you need FACTS from an independent source. I just ran off a random list here.

Do yourself a favour hire a PI, write down the information you need gathered, this is all factual stuff you want, you may never use it but at least your information will be accurate and you will know dare I say your “enemy”.

I suspect you are doing an awful lot, words don’t do it justice. 

I will leave the actual breaking of the affair part to the experts on this forum; they have seen this before so be confident. 

Best wishes, I am reading all your posts, hang in there.


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## iamnottheonlyone

The year is calculated o two things. One is that my son finishes high school next year. Regular contact with my wife could end with him going off to college. That was always something I considered as an end date. Now with the year lease, it beomes firmer. There are three likely scenarios. 1- She moves in with the boyfriend. I move on. 2- Affair ends or not..she renews her lease. I reevaluate. 3- She comes home. 
My oriiginal thought 2 months ago was to give it until our 20th anniversay in October. I will not divorce. So what I am talking about is Plan B or a JAR type plan, a Plan B+. 
I really don't see many alternatives to what I am doing now. The worse alternative is to turn into a mean bastard. And start spewing venom. The begging and grovelling phase is long gone. 
One of my very good friends warned me against the pretty and charmong gal who starts talking me up. At this point the scales start to tip toward someone who is showing interest and making me happy. When my wife started to justify allowing the OM to entertain her she was in aposition where she could have communicated her needs but chose not to. As I have reflected back I can recall a number of times she was in a sad state and I sensitively inquired as to what was wrong. The responces were usually something along the lines of I am not feeling well or a didn't sleep well. So it was not like I wasn't taking notice. However when she was ranting I ranted back.


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## cmf

I suspect she is trying to impress the OM with all her homemaking. It may be short lived. The decay will come in time, this is the hard time, try to limit contact and focus fully on yourself and son. The OM sounds like an ass and it is only a matter of time before she starts to see it. I was in this phase for about 2 or 3 months, but our only contact was hostile . You are doing fine, the roller coaster is very hard to go through. Let her live her fantasy affair life, she is in a fog, there is no way to work on the marriage right now anyway.


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## Blue Moon

Neverwouldhave guessed said:


> Maybe others could weigh in on their throughts here, but I think at this point in time I would not ask her to join you for coffee, lunch, etc. Take at least a couple of weeks off so that she can get the vibe that you are moving forward - on your own for now. Really, in time I truly believe that will drive her nuts. So think about limiting calls to those that are essential. I know this is really hard to do, but it is human nature to want what seems just out of reach. Also, I know from experience how crappy rejection from your own spouse feels.


I agree. She has no reason to commit back to the marriage if she gets wild fun from the OM and still knows she has lunches and sweet poems waiting for her whenever contact is made with her husband. Classic example of having your cake and eating it too, getting the milk for free without buying the cow, or any other cliche you want to insert.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I just got off the phone with W. She left a voice mail that OM's 15 year old son was at her house. She forgot to tell me. My son is going over there tonight. So I called her back and asked why is OM's son over your place. Her answer was about some problem with the crazy ex-wife so that the OM's son had to stay at OM's other place. Now i was a little fired up and said a few things about understanding how some people do unexpected things some times. I said it probably isn't right to call OM's Ex crazy. Now she became defensive. She said my son and OM's kids have already met. I became more excited and asked just how did that happen. Her response was that she told our son he he said that he told me. I said she should have told me. I have a right to know who my son is with. I asked if OM was there. She said no, but it was none of my business. so here is where the twist comes in.
I told you how my son hung out with a friend last Saturday and then weht to her house for dinner. Well it turns out that Her parents who are our mutual friends had invited W and OM over for dinner. They did not expect the kids to show up. So when my son found out he wanted to leave. He did not want anything to do with the OM. Instead, sinner for the adults was cancelled. So W blames me for poisoning my son's mind. So that was another excheange which included the classics: "You are talking over me." "You talk about change , but you haven't." " I will say what I feel and if I want to be mean I will be. I have held my tongue for too long."
So now I know why the rollercoaster was running down hill on Sunday. This explains why she stormed into the house and packed more things. And stormed out. 
So I told her I have no control over what she does with our mutual friends. (But I am distressed that they would invite OM over.) They are mutual and this gal was the one who gave me His Needs, Her Needs and told my wife to talk to me and seek counselling. She is the curious type. Maybe she just wants to see what OM is all about. I can't imagine that it would have been a comfortable dinner.
So, wacko Ex. OM's kids under stress. Why have my child in the mix? Why shouldn't I be upset? She wanted my son there to relieve some of the discomfort. How am I doing? 
Five minutes into that conversation I felt like throwing in the towel. Why doesn't she just divorce me?
She was upset about my son's refusal to be with the OM. My response was, we both taught him values. He is not going to reject them now. I didn't tell him what to do. He told his friend that the affair was going on for a year. W said I must have told him that. I said I didn't becuase I don't know how long it has gone on. So I asked. And she did not answer othe thansaying not long. I replied so you throw away 22 years of relationship for something that has not gone on for too long? Then I got a tirade.
Things calmed down. I talked calmly about the need for honest transparent conversations and not using our son as an intermediary. We ended cordially. (I said I love you.)
She texted me a few minutes later:
(Betrayed Spouse), once again I am sorry. I'll try harder to be a better communicator, I just don't want any of the kids to suffer for their parents mistakes.
OH, I also had some comments about the OM. She mentioned he was a long time friend, I said a true friend would have encouraged you to work on your marriage and would have heloed youcommunicate you problems wiith your husband, instead of destroying you marriage and ruining your life. (Opps!)


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## Affaircare

> Maybe others could weigh in on their throughts here, but I think at this point in time I would not ask her to join you for coffee, lunch, etc. Take at least a couple of weeks off so that she can get the vibe that you are moving forward - on your own for now. Really, in time I truly believe that will drive her nuts. So think about limiting calls to those that are essential. I know this is really hard to do, but it is human nature to want what seems just out of reach. Also, I know from experience how crappy rejection from your own spouse feels.


It is my understanding that you are in Plan A/Carrot & Stick, right? On the occasion I know your heart would LOVE to engage in some of those romantic things and that's why, on the occasion, I tell you that if you feel like sending her a card, send one and tell her you love her. Or if you feel like calling her and saying "I love you" say it. I personally believe that needs to be expressed or verbalized from time to time! However, I do think it would be good for your peace of mind to go through most of your days and do things that help you grow as a man, improve your finances, or generally make you happy. As a crazy example, I wantonly wore my shoes on the living room carpet and drank grape juice when my exH left me because he would not let me do those things when he was around (haven't spilled a drop yet)! I also went to small coffeeshops and game nights and support groups. So find some things where the focus is YOU and not her such as joining a softball team, going to a bible study, etc. 

Then, just like the days when you were dating, you may have plans one day when she wants to meet with you. You have a life too ya know!



> ... I suggest keeping your game plan somewhat to yourself. Maybe speak of Plan A with your son as "I'm going to make myself her best option, and if it doesn't workout, I'll be be an awesome BF/spouse for someone else down the road." Kids will innocently let stuff slip and you don't want her to think you are manipulating her. You still have good friends/family that you can confide in. Just my opinions....


I hear what NWHG is saying and just partially disagree--partially agree. I think your son is old enough to understand some of this, IAM, and it probably sets his mind somewhat at ease to have some of it explained. After all, it may not make much sense to him! He may have questions! But he's also not an adult and does not understand the full intricacies of a mature, healthy marriage relationship. Thus, laying out everything is giving an adult's load to a kid. Be honest--be open--answer his questions--but be age appropriate and don't give him more than he has the tools to handle. Some kids at 17yo have a high emotional IQ--some not so high. 



> Something seems wierd to me. Unless he gave her a great deal on the rent, it would be easier to rent an apt. where there is no yardwork, you usually move into a well-cleaned unit, etc. I think this "extra" work will wear on her soon. Seriously, it is HIS property, so why weren't the shrubs being trimmed before this? Heck, it almost seems like he is using her to "fix-up" the place for a year at no expense to him. Not very attractive.....


IAM, I know you wish the affair was disintegrating right before your eyes, but let me ask you something. Do you remember reading What Is Going On in Affairland? He is supposed to be her soulmate, who understands her, treats her with romance, sweeps her off her feet, and meets her every need by osmosis because they were meant to be! Yet in real life, he could have GIVEN her the house as a free gift to live in but instead he rented it to her: she had to sign a 1 year lease remember? That means it is not for free and she has to pay something--so he's not providing for her financially or making her life easier that way. He doesn't give her presents--remember she told you that and cried. He's making her do YARDWORK and clean! Ewwwwww! He has to spend time with his other family so she is alone. He's using her to clean up one of HIS rental properties. She can not take him around her son or her friends so she has no social life. You tell me--how long before she starts to see these things? 

But even when she does start to see these things, she will have to pretend that she doesn't see them in order to try to save some of her dignity. How could she have been so stupid? She gave away a handsome, sensitive, financially secure, husband with a posh lifestyle and rich social life for herself and her family ... to live in a dirty home with none of the amenities, where she has to do yardwork and cleaning, can't be with her own son, and has no social life! He can't even buy her "little things" as a present! How is this BETTER? :scratchhead: In order to save any face at all, she thinks she has to continue to support what is more and more and MORE becoming clear it was a mistake. 

From this point forward, you do something for you (like taking a local pottery class because you always wanted to), let her try to live her fantasy which she can't, let her discover for herself that it's falling apart, and then gently show her a way to save face by admitting she was wrong and acknowledging her part in this too.


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## cmf

IANTOO- AC gave some good advice. I dont know if this helps but..my H said the exact same thing about turning the kids against him. They just can not understand how their children dont just love the OP. It's the fog. I feel for you so much right now..this time is really tough. I did not handle it well, did a lot of crying , lashed out quite a bit at him, made him come and get ALL of his things. I finally just pretended like they did not exist and had very little contact with him. I also started legal proceedings and finally found this board. . I also was speaking a lot to my male friend , so be careful, it will become very tempting to turn to someone else right now.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thank you AC. 
CMF- I have thought about packing up all her stuff. Her little raid at the house on Sunday was a result of the son vs. OM. She could have stuffed bags if she wanted, but didn't. It really helps to hear your experience as I struggle everyday. And I see the temptations everyday which I had never noticed before.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I talked to my son about last night with OM's son. My kid is such a good soul. My wife told my boy that OM's Ex threw him out of the house. So she took him in until OM gets home. It turns out my son has mutual friends through skiing. He said he didn't want a 15 year old having to hang out with a 47 year old. I said I wouldn't mind having the 47 year old have to take care of someone elses kid. He was puzzled. I explained again the carrot and stick. It is hard to graso that by letting his mom handle OM's problems that it makes it more difficult for her and increases the likelihood that the affair will end. I told him it was not like we were psychologiaclly hitting her with the stick, She was hitting herself. I explained that we were to both treat her nice but avoid enabling her.


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## Affaircare

IAM~

Since we do not know exactly *what* drama unfolded yesterday regarding your son, your wife and the OM's son, let's just say that I think I get the drift of the thing. OM's ex and OM's son had a tiff; supposedly the "big, bad, evil ex" threw her child into the street; and OM wasn't even home...so the poor boy had nowhere to go (insert drama here...with big puppydog eyes and crocodile tears).

I understand your son being upset that *HIS *mom is spending time with some other kid when she's not even spending time WITH HIM!! *HE *is her son, not that kid! But I'm glad you could help explain things to him. Right now look at the position she's in. She is in a house with no AC or cable, with a kid she didn't raise and doesn't really know, in a dirty home that needs work, mopping up after OM's mess! SHE has to deal with OM's ex, OM's spoiled kids, and all the drama created from the fact that she and OM are having an affair. You talk about the affair crumbling!

OH MAN--*love EXTINGUISHERS* everywhere! *MAN!! * She's got a disaster of a home with no help; a mad EX who isn't even hers; her own son is mad as a wet hen at her.... YIKES! Plus he doesn't help her financially, they can't have a social life, have no spiritual life, he doesn't buy her gifts. Umm...:scratchhead: exactly why the heck is she staying?

*Affairland is not only NOT greener...it SUX!!!!*

Stay the course, IAM. It is crumbling and fast... Just do your best to give her enough rope to kill it herself.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I do see the stress on the relationship. However she did sign a lease and she is doing a lot of work. She has been painting the entire enterior of this house in humid high temps. She must be miserable. However, all these efforts might lead her to commit for a bit longer if I back off too far. I can't see this affair ending in less than another 3 months. She is getting some deeds met there while she is getting a ton of love extinguisher. As long as there is a positive balance in the love bank, she won't quit.
A couple days ago I dished out a bunch of very personal extinguishers when we argued. I would expect that she hasn't had one of those arguments with OM yet. I need to redeem myself.
As I and my son will take a little vacation in ten days, W will be helping with the scheduling and bookings.


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## jar

Remember…patience…patience…patience…

I think that there are some positive here that the affair will be ending soon. 

At least you know what is going on.

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

I haven't spoken to my wife since our little incident on Tuesday. I will give her a call today to work on the vacation schedule. My son hasn't quite figured out what he wants to do. We also have to start working on the Gridiron Club for my son's football team. I am not looking forward to working with her.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Just a couple of things up reflection:

I had a couple anxious moments this week. No apparent trigger. No creeping bad thoughts. It took some conversation with my close friend S and 100 pushups to move me out of it. I am thinking I am reaching my limit. Maybe all of this is causing to much damage. Something like Post Traumatic Stress. I have never been depressed in my life time. And I don't think I am now. But the continual beating even at this lower level must take its toll. 

Second, I was thinking about how my situation is not so typical. How my wife told my son immediately. How the OM has made a commitment with his property and is buying her things related to the property...lawnmower, bed, tv, washer and dryer. How OM has taken W into his family. W spends time with his kids.

Maybe I should move on.


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## Wisp

Be strong my friend, yes perhaps he is trying to get your wife but you have had many good years with her.

Do prepare for the worst but know that you are a far better person than he will ever be, continue to behave like the man you are - your wife will come to realise that.

It is not over until you say it is.. stand strong..


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## i_feel_broken

Hi Iam,

I am a few months behind you but I feel my wife will soon be in her own place or his and they will be in a proper relationship. I can understand that you feel you should move on. I am going to move on but not give up if that makes sense. I am going to focus all my energy on myself and my son and just get my life back. Stop all this pain etc as soon as possible. I am going to get my own place and live my own life. If my wife does a U-Turn then I will be in a good place to calll the shots, if she doesn't I am moving on anyway. You have tried so so hard and are still being crushed emotionally. I'm no expert and will get flamed but if I were you I would move on. I am doing and I see it as not only moving on but also a last chance to have her change her mind. If she sees me moving on then it may just trigger something. If not then I'm in a better place than just hanging here like a love sick sheep waiting for her to come back.

I have given every piece of myself to try and make this work but I am suffering too much and at one point felt like I was slipping toward depression. It is a dark place and if you do slip there its harder to get out than in. I am not risking it - I need to stay strong and healthy because if I am not my son loses out and is in danger. Two depressed parents is going to take its toll on him. While my wife keeps trampling on me I am making him myself and therefore my son priority not my marriage. Judge that as you will

I hope you find strength and happiness and your situation changes for the better soon which ever way that maybe


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## turnera

It's time to realize you MAY end up without her. And focus on yourself. Better yourself. And hopefully she'll see the new you and choose you. But if she doesn't you have still worked on yourself and given yourself a better chance in life.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Another day filled with mild anxiety. I talked with my wife this afternoon. She is still working on her new place. She is trying to pinch pennies. She seems somewhat upset that me and my son are taking a vacation. I guess in the back of my mind I wanted that to happen. I did invite her, but I knew that wouldn't happen. During our conversation it was difficult for me to maintain my composure due to my anxiousness. However I think I did. I do not want to take medication but his little spell I am having is not causing me difficulty.
However, I don't think I would feel much better if I filed for divorce. I think the problem is that I feel committed to my marriage with no reciprocal feelings and the loneliness is driving the anxiety. 
We talked about the coming week. It appears she will not be able to attend our son's game this week. So I won't see her for another couple of weeks.


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## jar

Iam

I really understand how you feel. The depression, panic, and the anxiety can really drag you down.

You should consider talking to your doc about medication. I was embarrassed when I talked to my doctor about it and he said look at it this way. If you had the flue or a cold you would come see me and I would prescribe antibiotics etc to combat the virus. My doctor said think of what you’re going through with the depression and the anxiety the same. It can be part of the healing process.

I was worried I wouldn’t feel like myself taking this type of medication. I do not feel that way at all. It helps me focus on my daily activities and keeps me from getting hyper focused for the entire day on negative thoughts.

JAR


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## losinglove

Completely agree with you jar. Until I started taking meds, I was completely obsessive and probably made everything worse. I got very little if anything done at work. I still have days where it gets to me, but no where near what it used to. On those days I can still function for the most part.

LL


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## iamnottheonlyone

I talked with my wife today before she went out on her trip. She really doesn't want me to go. It is much like the parties I went to earlier this summer. She says my son isn't really interested in going. I know he would prefer to hang with his girlfriend , but I am not twisting his arm. We are going to Myrtle Beach like we did last summer. We will spend a lot of time on the beach and play a round or two of golf. I hear there are some fun shows and other entertainment that we didn't catch last year.
The OM's son was left with my wife last night. My son went over his mom's with his girlfriend and they and W went to dinner with our mutual friend J and her kids. When I asked her why OM's son was with her, she said she didn't know. 
I don't get it. We souldn't have a second kid and she is treating this 15 year old like her own. I wish I knew how she is thinking. There seems to no fun in W's life right now. But she certainly is experiencing a lot of new things.
I am still calling her honey all the time. And before I hang up I am telling her I love her.
I am still worried about this low level anxiety that doesn't seem to have a trigger.


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## turnera

Time to step back, ok?


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## iamnottheonlyone

Talked to my wife last night. She called from London. Her tone sounded like she was hoping I had cancelled the vacation. Most of it was logistical. I did manage to get in a little chatting. 
I got a call from one of our mutual friends last night. It was nice to hear from him. He just wanted to know how I was doing. 
I told him about this low level anxiety thing. No real advice from him. I had given them a copy of His Needs, Her Needs. Wife read it, he didn't. And he is the one that needs to. All the kids will be out of their home off to college next year. It doesn't look good for them. Well, I tried. She knows everything and he just listens. Sometimes it gets ugly in public. But at least he knows where he stands. She doesn't hold anything back.


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## cmf

Have fun in MB. I live about 3 hours from there. My kids and I may be about an hour from there next week too- Wrightsville Beach, NC.


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## turnera

We went to MB this Spring Break and loved it! We stayed at Marriott's Grand Dunes timeshare, absolutely gorgeous place! We're going back next May. We live near Galveston, and DD19 had never seen blue water or white sand before, lol. She thought all beaches were oily gray like Galveston.


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## iamnottheonlyone

The Marriot looks fantastic. We are staying at the 3 Palms. When we were down there last year it was just beach, golf and eating down at Bearfoot. Any recommendations for doing other things?


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## cmf

My kids are younger, but we usually do the Ripley aquarium, medievil times, family kingdom, broadway at the beach, barefoot landing. We used to stay at Coral Beach resort...I haven't been back to MB since the separation. Wilmington, NC is about an hour away, the Battleship there can be fun to visit for boys. I went to college in Wilmington and love it there. This will be our second visit there this summer. My boys just love boogie boarding and hanging out at the beach.


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## turnera

Go to tripadvisor.com and you'll find tons of reviews about things to do there and things to avoid. We did the 'horseback riding of myrtle beach' and it was terrible. Don't waste your money. MagiQuest is fun if you have middle-age kids but expensive. I wasn't that impressed with the Aquarium, for the price. We flew into Florence, about 1 1/2 hours away, and they have an _amazing _park - Lynches River County Park - Located on Lynches River in the Pee Dee Region - with this really cool walkway up in the trees, kind of like an extended treehouse.


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## iamnottheonlyone

We are actually flying into Raleigh. (I am hoping to get my boy to look at a couple schools.) We fly free with the airline and that is the nearest airport they serve. We drive right by the battleship! We have "Old Ironsides" across the street from us. I live on Bunker Hill. (You know, The Battle of...Don't shoot 'til you see the whites of their eyes. We lost that one by the way.)


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

I live in SC, but not especially close to MB. Considering your son's age, I would consider renting a jet ski, parasailing, etc. My almost 17 y/o loves the adventure in those types of things.


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## cmf

Tunera is right about the aquarium. The one in Fort Fisher , NC ( Kure Beach) is far better, cheaper and still close to MB. You can take a ferry there from Calabash,NC.


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## Affaircare

Well ya know, IAM--you can't win them ALL! 

Regarding the trip, I would encourage you to go. The fact of the matter is that one consequence of choosing to continue the affair is that a) she can't see son while he's on vacation with you and b) she can't go on vacation with you both. It's pretty easy--if she wants access to son "all the time" she can return to the family and do the right thing. If not, if she deliberately chooses to not do that, well then welcome to the realities of what a divorce would be like: namely, sometimes her son will not be with her on fairly important days... like Thanksgiving or Christmas. This will most likely not sit well with her...so the response is to try to convince you that son doesn't really want to go! :lol: (Silly disloyals)


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## i_feel_broken

definitely go IAM and try not to dwell on what your W will be thinking or doing. This is for you and your son. Have a great time with him and see it as time out from the battle. If you so wish resume it when you get back, it may even be easier but hold no expectations. Just do it for yourself.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Hoping you cancelled the trip? Gosh, I just HATE IT when other people get to have fun.:scratchhead:


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## iamnottheonlyone

We are having some trouble getting out as we fly non-rev/standby. Wouldn't you know it wife and OM are flying out to London together today. So she will be by to see us. (I am feeling a bit anxious now.) We will sit at the airport for a few hours. Likely will have to go tomorrow morning.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Just got back from the airport. We couldn't get out tonight. A Delta flight cancelled and passengers were moved over. My wife came by to check on us. We were sitting in the waiting area, she in uniform and us in casual dress, chatting. The woman sitting across from us asked my wife, "Are you a family?" Her face turned beet red and she said yes. Then she left and got on the plane with the OM to fly to Europe.
My life gets stranger by the minute. 
We will try to leave on the 6 am flight.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Just curious..how do you know he was working the flight? Did she tell you, or did you figure it out by other means?

You will come back to all of the emotional drain, so please try to relax and recharge in MB. Just get away from it all for a short while. Have fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thanks. We got out on the 6 am flight and made it into MD by 11:30. Great weather. A lot to do within walking distance. 
My W told me earlier in the day that they were flying together. That was the first time she ever said it/admitted it.
I think she is resenting our vacation. She is working constantly and has no money. OM and her do nothing in particular. OM must have one hell of a personality.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Two full days with just me and my teenage son. Boy he is a lot like me. I am working the patience thing. And the communication thing. So sitting here I am wondering if my wife and I really did need a mental and emotional break. The tone in my voice and the tonw in my son's voice when we don't agree is not very appealing. We don't talk this way to strangers or even good friends. The next few days I am going to work harder on my patience and that horrible tone.


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## Resonance

Attachment to another person can be a powerful feeling. Unfortunately in this situation since it has happened a few times before and is happening again, it may never end. Even if the affairs stop, you will never be able to fully trust her again and will always have doubts. A relationship takes both partners working together for it to work. As for her with separate income/debt and expectations for you to use more family funds to buy her a vehicle, you should really reconsider your situation and evaluate what her actions are doing to your whole family. 

Not only are you going through emotional pains, but your family may eventually end up in a financial pit from selfish actions. Exposing your partner to others about their infidelity will just anger or make her spite you, not make her crawl back to you and realize her shortcomings to your marriage and family. You may love this woman, but it will not work out for you in the end. She wants what she wants and will use you as a stepping stone to her goals.


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## Blue Moon

Resonance said:


> Attachment to another person can be a powerful feeling. Unfortunately in this situation since it has happened a few times before and is happening again, it may never end. Even if the affairs stop, you will never be able to fully trust her again and will always have doubts. A relationship takes both partners working together for it to work. As for her with separate income/debt and expectations for you to use more family funds to buy her a vehicle, you should really reconsider your situation and evaluate what her actions are doing to your whole family.
> 
> Not only are you going through emotional pains, but your family may eventually end up in a financial pit from selfish actions. Exposing your partner to others about their infidelity will just anger or make her spite you, not make her crawl back to you and realize her shortcomings to your marriage and family. You may love this woman, but it will not work out for you in the end. She wants what she wants and will use you as a stepping stone to her goals.


Exactly. Very well said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone

All the exposure is water under the bridge. All our friends, mutual and otherwise, know what she did and is doing. I had to think long and hard about the exposure as it could have driven a further wedge between us. I did the exposure only after she said she was not coming home. I had begged and grovelled largely based on initial statement to me when I broke down, that she didn't realize that I loved her. She does now.
She clearly is resenting something now. We talked several times while my son and I were on vacation. She had a tone in her voice indicating that she wasn't pleased. When I got home this afternoon she had been in the house and taken a couple of kitchen items, a stew pot and our blender, and some glass wear she had collected the last couple of years. This is the third time she has come into the house and taken things when she had that resentment in her voice. But, she could have taken a lot more and didn't. She has all kinds of clothes and personal items in the house.
We also talked some about the truck. She left it at the airport for us to have a ride home.
Now as to her tone, I didn't confront her. I has very pleasant and talked through it. However, I will ask her tomorrow what is bothering her. Now she isn't covering up her emotions but she is still not communicating.
I had a great 5 days with my son. By the Monday we had resolved, at least temporarily, the tone in the voice thing. We had one confrontation when I was not agreeable to letting him make a purchase. He was hufing and puffing and then sent a text to his girlfriend. I then asked to see the text he sent. He said it was just an answer to a text his girlfriend had sent to him. I told him I wanted to see it as I was not going to tolerate any texting behind my back. I said his mother had sat next to me night after night texting to her boyfriend while I never questioned what she was doing. I told him I wasn't going to let that happen with him. He said with all sincerity, "I'm not mom." He was very sweet. 
So the two of us are in good order.
Resonance and Blue Moon, I understand that she is still manipulating me and that my marriage may be over. She can't be trusted. Many of our mutual friends will, for some time, see the character flaw. Her co-worker friends probably like this guy so she will get plenty of support over there. And those that don't know about the affair I expect she will just tell people that we are separated and she is dating (and I am not). 
So I am going to stick to Plan A the best I can.
I felt great all vacation and now coming home and finding stuff gone has made me anxious. (I'll get over it. I will go to the gym.)


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## turnera

She is resenting that YOU get the house and the son and she doesn't. This life isn't what she had planned in her affair fog. Keep pointing out she's welcome to come home.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Now that I know international texts cost 25 cents, I decided to send her a text about our return. I thanked her for her help and told her that the only way we would have had a better time is if she had come along. Should that cause more resentment?


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## turnera

No. Good stuff.


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## Affaircare

> ...When I got home this afternoon she had been in the house and taken a couple of kitchen items, a stew pot and our blender, and some glass wear she had collected the last couple of years. This is the third time she has come into the house and taken things when she had that resentment in her voice...


If I remember correctly, her name is not on the mortgage and she has moved out and established a residence elsewhere. Thus it really is not appropriate for her to be entering your home and removing items when she had not pre-arranged that with you. Even though it is the marital home, this is also likely illegal and could be the very definition of "breaking and entering." 

Thus you may want to consider telling her it's inappropriate to break into the home, check with an attorney about changing the locks, or actually go for a court order of exclusive use. I really do find that VERY ... disturbing that she'd walk into your home while you're gone and go through "god knows what" without your permission or knowledge.

She is the one who chose to leave. Thus appropriate = "I would like the blender, is that okay with you?""Yes I'll meet you on Monday and let you in the house" and inappropriate = entering the house without your knowledge while you're gone.


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## iamnottheonlyone

AC, remember my wife has this issue of our house "never being (her) home." Yet I wonder how she would feel if i just walked in to her place and took back the blender. 
I thought she would pay a visit when we were gone. I told my son that if she only took a couple of things then it was a good sign. When we got in today I looked around and mentioned to him I didn't notice anything other than her mail gone. I said that was cool. After he left I noticed the missing items. It got me down because she is still settling in. In talking with her this week she surely wasn't happy at her new place. It is a struggle for her everyday.


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## cmf

IANTOO- My lawyer had me send a written notice to my H telling him that I was changing the locks and he had 30 days to arrange with me a time to collect his "personal" things. He could not take any marital property from the home- furniture, kitchen stuff, files, lawn stuff. Technically you can change the locks any time after they leave the home as long as you give them notice to come get their things.It will make her mad , and be hard for you to see her things gone, but seeing her things all the time has to be hard too.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

I may have mentioned this before, but I figured if the OW had access to him, she had access to my house!!! I think my attorney said I legally couldn't change 'em before a judge gave me possession, but he did say a judge would most likely understand if H raised a fuss if I changed them earlier. I changed 'em the day he was served. Wierd thing...today is our anniversary (all good) and he STILL doesn't know they were ever changed:scratchhead: Roses, dinner and a very thoughtful card. Believe me, if we could turn this around, any couple can. There was unbelieveable drama and nastiness.


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## Affaircare

In real life, usually the law says that its' the marital home: if both spouses have their name on the mortgage, then they both own the property and even if one moves out, you can not just change the locks. 

However, if one moves out and establishes a residence elsewhere, the one who is in the marital house can ask a judge to order "exclusive use." That means that the spouse who moved out can not just "walk in at any time" and the spouse who stayed could change the locks to protect their stuff. 

If they do not both have their name on the mortgage, it never was their property to begin with...in name. Thus the one who has their name on the mortgage owns it and can change the locks, except that the judge does consider stuff like "if the value of the property went up" and it's a joint property state, the other spouse would have ownership of half the increased value, etc. So even then it's better to get a judge to order exclusive use just to be safe. 

Finally, in your instance IAM if you are trying to show your wife that this *is* her home, I think letting her sneak in and go through you things and select what she wants while you are not on the property does not breed respect but rather a "doormat" attitude. Whilst I understand your reasoning, I do think you are setting a "go ahead and walk all over me" precedent if you let this continue. 

I would suggest at least writing her a formal email that says, "I do want to make sure you feel like this house is yours, but when you are choosing to set up a residence with another man, it is not okay with me for you to come into the house and take items. I would be happy to pre-arrange with you any items you think of that you'd like to request, and be here in the house to give them to you with my knowledge and permission. So if you want something, please ask me and do not enter the house without notifying me at least. Thanks."


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## iamnottheonlyone

I sent it just as you wrote with one additional line. "I love you most in the world. Don't abuse it."


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## iamnottheonlyone

She quickly texted back a reply. It is not my house but its got my stuff in it. I didn't take anything that isn't mine. I texted back that she can move back to her home if she quits Mark.
She said she is not quitting him. That it is too late literally and figuretively. "In regards to the house you have a very selective memory. We did have that dicussion as much as you would allow before shutting me down entirely. This is no the venue for this discussion."
I again stessed she could return and the issues would be discussed tto reach an "enthusiastic agreement in open dialogue". "When you find me appealing I am prepared to address all your concerns. You can be happy with me and we can be happy as a family.
So there is tension in the air.
She replies "Please just stop. I wasn't happy and now I am. I just need to see my son more.I am not coming back.You have all OUR friends and you still have some of my stuff in your house. I just want my son and financial ease and independence."
I guess she is putting her foot down.


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## iamnottheonlyone

She further replies, "I just want you to understand what I want." 
I guess she resents our trip to MB. A lot of anger there.


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## iamnottheonlyone

She just texted that she is very angry with me about the things she has spoken to me about and that I have left her hanging financially. I crashed the truck and left her with a piece of crap. I responded that I wasn't going to be used to enable her relationship. I would help her, but there is no way on god's green earth that I would ever endorse her affair. She is working her fingers to the bone and says it is my fault.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Now she says I am financially irresponsible. That I should take some of the responsibility for her bills because it is both our fault. I told her that I took responsibility for not meeting her needs and stepped up to work things out. And she just stepped out. I am not responsible for her infidelity and betrayal not for her new bills. She can have OM pay them if she is not going to return. I am not contributing to the relationship.
I said there is reason that adultery is forbidden by one of the 10 commandments. It is so destructive. She raised a boy with high moral and ethical standards. That is the problem she created with her betrayal. Her son will forgive her but only when she regrets her actions which she does not. So he will not forgive.
I was very tempted to say I will not help out any more and to severe all financial links (and get your stuff out of the house.)


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## Affaircare

I would suggest that you text, "Since it seems this is getting a little tense, I'm going to turn the phone off for the evening. Have a good night, and yep, I still love you." Then turn your phone off.


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## Affaircare

Okay the reason I suggest that is that I know from first hand experience that even when a couple loves each other very much, in the heat of disagreement or arguing, sometimes the fight winds up and up until things are said that can't be taken back. We do not want that to happen. 

However, the things you said tonight were very true and probably things she needed to hear. They may indeed make her angry because no one wants to be told that their adultery is "wrong"...but that doesn't mean that what you said was unkind or untrue. So now turn it off, and take the rest of the night to relax and unwind from the discussion. Okay? 

DO NOT RE-ENGAGE. Step away from the battle.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Yeah she did say that she was angry that we took a vacation when she has no money. I could have been helping her out


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## Blue Moon

Outside of past experiences together what makes you think she still loves you? Serious question, not being flippant. It seems like you're overextending yourself and not getting as much as a glimmer of hope. 

You've told her numerous times that when she's willing to work on it she's welcome to return. Trust, she's heard it before and she knows it. By throwing that statement out or "I love you's" as a rebuttal to her abuse you're rewarding her and letting her have that safety net without earning it. Having her cake and eating it too. 

Make it cold outside for her a little bit and stop reiterating that you want her back so much. She's talking crazy about finances so you may want to at least have a sit-down with an attorney because best believe if it comes to a divorce she's going for the jugular. She might already be getting things mapped out. I know you love her but there comes a point where as a human being you deserve better treatment. She's not meeting you 5% let alone halfway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone

I understand that she loves someone else. Until she stops loving him I am out of the picture. Plan A is about being ready when the affair ends. So getting the affair to end is my chore. Once it is over is I remain attractive and viable then I have a chance. Right now my love bank is taking a serious hit. I am running out of desire. Also I am getting distracted. There are a number of interested, attractive, intelligent and succesful women seeking my attention. It has certainly helped my confidence, but is lowering my will power.


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## Affaircare

IAM I know this has been a tough night for you, but you did very well. I politely remind you that about 99.99% of what she wrote to you tonight is extremely deep fog. I'll take a moment and translate some of her fog talk for ya okay? But you did a VERY good job telling her you loved her, telling her she could come back if she gave him up, telling her that if she chooses an affair you aren't helping her to destroy the family, and telling her that she doesn't spend time with her son because she harmed her son's family. These things are true, and you know as well as I do that she is MISERABLE. 

That notwithstanding, I also completely understand that your own lovebank is getting pretty depleted. This may be a good time to do some healthy, loving things for yourself or with a guy friend of yours. I remind you that you made a promise to her to love her until you are dead, so be a man of your word even in the face of adversity and you will be able to hold your head high. 

Hang in there!


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## nice777guy

Affaircare said:


> This may be a good time to do some healthy, loving things for yourself or with a guy friend of yours.
> 
> Hang in there!


Amen...hope this turns around for you...


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## Affaircare

> It is not my house but its got my stuff in it. I didn't take anything that isn't mine. I texted back that she can move back to her home if she quits Mark.


It is not her home right now because she chose to move out of it. She voluntarily signed a lease on another residence, and at any time she is free to choose to end her affair and return to the home where her things are. On the other hand, if her items are in your place of residence, she can contact you and arrange to pick them up while you are in the house, or give you a list of the items and ask you to arrange to have them delivered. 

Imagine she has a blender, toaster and pillowcases at her friends' house. Would she just walk in there and take them out of the house while the friend was not home? No. She'd call to arrange to pick them up from the friend. That is how she she set it up to be treating you. I'm not laying blame, I'm saying she is the one who wanted this so this is the consequence of her choice. Not yours. 



> She said she is not quitting him. That it is too late literally and figuretively. "In regards to the house you have a very selective memory. We did have that dicussion as much as you would allow before shutting me down entirely. This is no the venue for this discussion."


This is just her foggy attempt to deflect from what she did (aka "breaking and entering") to put some sort of blame on you. I would say let this roll off as it's just meant as a barb.



> I again stessed she could return and the issues would be discussed tto reach an "enthusiastic agreement in open dialogue". "When you find me appealing I am prepared to address all your concerns. You can be happy with me and we can be happy as a family.


*EXTREMELY EXCELLENT JOB!* Seriously, very good reply!!!



> She replies "Please just stop. I wasn't happy and now I am. I just need to see my son more.I am not coming back.You have all OUR friends and you still have some of my stuff in your house. I just want my son and financial ease and independence."


She is re-writing history to justify continuing what she and all her friends know is wrong. You have photos to prove she was happy and your own memory! Were things perfect? No of course not. There were issues that build resentment. But there were also happy times and you know as well as I do that you offered her time with her own child and financial ease and she threw it all away. 

If she is so happy, why doesn't OM give her gifts, take her on vacations, buy her new things for her love nest, not charge her rent, either mow for her or get a landscaper, etc. ? Don't you believe for one second that she is happy. She's snapping at you because she is NOT getting those things and life in affairland is not going according to the fantasy so she *has* to blame someone. It can't be her or OM so... oh yeah! There's IAM! It's all his fault ... 



> She further replies, "I just want you to understand what I want." I guess she resents our trip to MB. A lot of anger there.


A trip on which she would have been joyously included if she decided to give up her adultery and do the right thing! A vacation and relaxation, fun, leisure, enjoyment--she is missing out on all these things because of her own choices. That's what's making her mad. She sees you having what she wants and life in affairland is not what it was cracked up to be. 



> She just texted that she is very angry with me about the things she has spoken to me about and that I have left her hanging financially. I crashed the truck and left her with a piece of crap. I responded that I wasn't going to be used to enable her relationship. I would help her, but there is no way on god's green earth that I would ever endorse her affair. She is working her fingers to the bone and says it is my fault.


No she is the one who left you (even if you asked her to move out due to the affair). At any time EVEN NOW she could move back and fully enjoy the benefits of your financial support...and now you even understand her side a little and why she feels like she's been facing it all alone with no one on her side. She left HERSELF hanging financially, but she is a fully grown adult with a $50k a year job in an economy when many people are unemployed and can't afford groceries. She could *have* the cool car if she was at home--the choice to move with her affair partner = HE provides for her now. She could *have* a part-time position or work less if she was at home; she works her fingers to the bone because she chooses the affair = HE provides for her now. Don't listen to it IAM. This is entirely fog, fog, deep fog, with some foggy patches. 



> Now she says I am financially irresponsible. That I should take some of the responsibility for her bills because it is both our fault. I told her that I took responsibility for not meeting her needs and stepped up to work things out. And she just stepped out. I am not responsible for her infidelity and betrayal not for her new bills. She can have OM pay them if she is not going to return. I am not contributing to the relationship.


No that's not how adults work. If I am over 21 and I am on my own in my own home, and I make a bill, I am responsible to pay it. If she moves OUT of your family home and signs a lease elsewhere, she is 100% responsible to pay it. She is the one being irresponsible here, and to be precise it is lack of PERSONAL responsibility. Here's what personal responsibility is: if I make a choice, I reap the benefits and I also am responsible for the consequences. 

So Nope, NOPE, *NOPE*! You are not responsible for her bills if she chooses to leave!!!!!!!! 



> I said there is reason that adultery is forbidden by one of the 10 commandments. It is so destructive. She raised a boy with high moral and ethical standards. That is the problem she created with her betrayal. Her son will forgive her but only when she regrets her actions which she does not. So he will not forgive.
> I was very tempted to say I will not help out any more and to severe all financial links (and get your stuff out of the house.)


I'm just gonna say: BOOYAH! Well said! It is a little hard around the edges but on-the-money-true, and she needed to hear it. And I'm glad you resisted temptation by the way. In the future you may sever all financial links, pack her things, put them in a local "You Store" with a one month rental and mail her the key with a note that says the unit number...but that's not tonight. 



> Yeah she did say that she was angry that we took a vacation when she has no money. I could have been helping her out.


Let me get this straight. "IAM I'm leaving you, destroying our family, hurting our child, and sleeping with another man and I expect you to help me pay for it."  Yeah! RIGHT! This is so deep in the fog it's almost impenetrable. However, see what I said above about the vacation? 

_"A trip on which she would have been joyously included if she decided to give up her adultery and do the right thing! A vacation and relaxation, fun, leisure, enjoyment--she is missing out on all these things because of her own choices. That's what's making her mad. She sees you having what she wants and life in affairland is not what it was cracked up to be."_


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## turnera

> If she is so happy, why doesn't OM give her gifts, take her on vacations, buy her new things for her love nest, not charge her rent, either mow for her or get a landscaper, etc. ? Don't you believe for one second that she is happy. She's snapping at you because she is NOT getting those things and life in affairland is not going according to the fantasy so she *has* to blame someone. It can't be her or OM so... oh yeah! There's IAM! It's all his fault ...


Exactly!

If you can hang on for a few more weeks, I have no doubt OM will be out of the picture. You may want to inquire of your lawyer - for HER - on how she can get out of her one-year lease, so that you will be ready and waiting with the information to HELP her, once she reaches the conclusion that she wants out of that nightmare. If you do this, you will be, once again, the hero for rescuing her.

I think that, at this point, you may want to back off the 'I love you' stuff and start replacing it with 'you have a way back and I will NOT hold this situation against you, if you come back.'

I have no doubt that, at this point, she's going to sleep or waking up and starting to have little niggling thoughts cropping up like 'Man, this sucks! I wish I was back home. But I burned that bridge. He'd never let me live it down. If I tried to go back now he'd make me grovel. And I'll be dammed if I'll do that. I'll suffer the rest of my life before I let him (meaning you) gloat about how bad I screwed up.'

If you change your focus to one of NOT gloating and FORGIVING and moving on, she may start being receptive. 

She knows she's dug her grave so deep that it must feel inconceivable to be able to come back now. Focus on that.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Turnera is right about the acceptance and forgiving. I saw a big change when I said (and meant) that I could and would completely forgive my H once he honestly answered a few questions regarding the affair, got tested for STDs, and agree to work to change his love busters. I never thought about Turnera's point that their pride can hold them back.

I would agree with the others that this is the time to calming state your boundaries - then - walk away for a little while. Could be only be for a week or two. Does not mean you can't say "I love you" ever again - just for a short while keep that out of any interaction with her. It IS going to implode on her very soon. She is very unhappy and stressed with the mess this has created.

I, too, have sought out attention from the opp. sex. I guess there is a point we just need to know we are still attractive and appealing. Just keep it to minimal flirting, OK? If it goes further, you marriage will most likely be over.

HANG IN THERE!!!!!!!!!!


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## cmf

IANTOO- Eventful night for you. She is struggling and will be very hurtful to you right now. This is the really tough phase. My H refused to see how his actions affected our children and blamed me for them not wanting to be around him. He said some very nasty things to me and made all kinds of threats. I did contact a lawyer during this time and started showing him the reality of what divorce would be like. He fought me over everything for about 2 months and then crashed hard and finally the fog started lifting. Hang in there, remember your advice to me when I was tempted to have someone else meet my needs.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Ditto cmf's comments. There sure is a "script". When the fog lifts, she will most likely have a selective memory regarding the hurtful actions/comments. She is like "semi-unconscious" right now. Frustrated, afraid, lost, and like Turnera said, can't imagine returning and having to live with our judgement long-term.

I would consider laying out your boundaries (house, son, $$, etc.) and stepping back. It doesn't mean you will never tell her you love her again, just maybe not for the next week or two. Try seeing how that goes.... This IS going to implode on her.

It is natural to seek the attention of the opposite sex now. I have done it myself. Just keep it to innocent, light flirting. NOTHING MORE - or as a therapist told me "You marriage will likely be over". Not just because your W will give up, but as in affairs, any new relationship will look like candy compared to what is going on in your life now.

Hang in there - the end is near.


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## Blue Moon

Again, not being a jerk, but what about last night's text argument makes everyone believe the affair is about to end?


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

From my point-of-view, she is increasingly frustrated, and the OM simply cannot meet her needs as well as IANTOO can. She is just getting the attention/sex "high" and nothing else ($$, son, etc.)


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## turnera

Blue Moon said:


> Again, not being a jerk, but what about last night's text argument makes everyone believe the affair is about to end?


 She is 
(1) having to work overtime just to put gas in her car
(2) having to PAY OM to live at his extra house and do MANUAL LABOR just to keep it livable, while he apparently does next to nothing to help her
(3) missing out on her family's history of great vacations because of her choice
(4) estranged from her son (that alone would KILL me)

And there sits iam, with the house, the son, the vacation, and the money. All because she chose this jerk. I mean, this wonderful new guy who is her prince charming. Just struggling to pay the bills is going to be bad enough after a couple months. Add to that that she has to pay rent *TO* the OM and probably go hungry, or without furniture, and STILL pay him rent...I see Armageddon coming.


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## Affaircare

Blue Moon said:


> Again, not being a jerk, but what about last night's text argument makes everyone believe the affair is about to end?


This is actually a GREAT question!!

If we took her words at face value, the marriage is about over and she will never, ever come back or even consider it. Sadly, what often happens is that a loyal spouse will hear these kinds of words and believe it is their spouse talking to them, and forget that it is the disloyal spouse who's talking. The disloyal spouse is the Evil Twin, remember? They speak from a place of re-writing history so they can blame the loyal spouse for their infidelity. They also have said "I love you but I'm not in love with you" and "I was never happy" and "I never loved you" but we know for a fact that those statements are not true. 

Thus what we strive to do, and strive to show the loyal spouse, is how to recognize *Disloyal Dizzy Talk* and how to recognize when it is reality-based. If you recognize that what they said is Disloyal Dizzy Talk, then to some degree acknowledge it's the Evil Twin and let it roll off your back. Alternatively take what they SAY and compare that to what they DO and what you know is reality. 

In this instance, IAM's wife is a fairly high-maintenance city-girl who loves some generous finances and does not like to have to work for it. She likes having some spending money and a cute little car or at least a newer status symbol car. She does not and will not clean. She likes to have a social life. She likes to vacation and go to some of the finer restaurants and hotels. She loves her son but basically doesn't tolerate other children well and doesn't have a deep maternal desire to have a large family.

Her OM has an ex and four children, so his finances go to his ex and to his kids. He and his ex frequently fight about and with his son...so that son is in the middle of "their' lives often. She has admitted her OM does not buy or give her gifts, does not spend money on her, and does not help her financially. She no longer gets her mani-pedi, and she has to actually WORK for a living rather than working for some extra spending cash. She lost most of her friends because they are appalled at her infidelity. Her OM did not give her a home--he RENTED a very used place to her and is making money off of her. She had to actually CLEAN the place and now has to care for it on her own. She doesn't get to vacation, go to fine restaurants or hotels, or drive a new, cute little car. 

So if you look at what she SAYS and what she DOES--they don't match. She SAYS she's happy but her actions show a person who's miserable and not enjoying the consequences of her choices. With strong Disloyal Dizzy fog, she thinks that IAM should be "helping her" commit adultery...which is silly. 
Thus I don't see the relationship with the OM lasting much longer. What I could see as a possibility is IAM growing exhausted waiting for her to admit she made a mistake, or her being too stubborn and prideful to admit it, even to herself, so she'd continue to pursue the separation and divorce to avoid admitting she was wrong.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thanks AC, T and NWHG.
I am going out to dinner tonight with a mutual friend who went throught the same thing. He is a great guy, but took a horrible mental beating when his wife had her (second) affair. I had a pretty good idea it was going on before he knew. I have apologized to him for not stepping up. 
Thanks for clearing the fog. I knew it was, but some of it sounds so convincing. She is stubborn. She still fails to reveal her emotions and feeling when we talk. It makes true communication very difficult. I told her this morning that she needs to tell me what she thinks and what she feels. I need to know why she is saying something. I gave her this example. This winter she asked me if I still wanted the ski house when our son went off to college. My response was all your friends are here. Why wouldn't you want to come back? So I offered a dialogue and she did not respond. Now I know I should probe when those kinds of questions are asked. I need to know why she is asking the question. I need to know how she feels.
I think you are all right. She is in a hole and will have trouble pulling herself out. Too much pride. I sensed this would be a problem when I was exposing her. I would never hold it against her. I have forgiven her. But in her mind she thinks I would. How can I address that?
We have a meeint mext week we are jointly leading for our son's football team. I am going to have trouble dealing with her. I am starting to feel a very small amount of resentment.


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## BigB

I have oft heard the expression "Haze of the affair" and I completely agree that it can make you do stupid things. Here, her actions and reactions are not that of a woman in the haze of the affair. She has made a life for herself, happy or not in your eyes, and is satisfied with it or so she feels. 

To be brutally honest it is you who in a haze - the haze of a marriage dead. You have to accept that those golden days are over and the life has taken a turn, for better or for worse. I can understand where your son is - he is disappointed in both of you - her for walking away and you for refusing to walk away. He has stayed around the "new" her and has seen that she is on a one way street that will never return to you. His frustration is why can't you see it. The longer you maintain this haze you are in the more strenuous your relation is going to get with your son.

I have followed your story from day one and have agreed largely with the suggestions that have been given here. Now, it is time to move on. Consult a lawyer and safeguard yourself from financial pains down the line. She is going to get vicious on financial matters as she has shown in her attitude till now. I will quote a song, corny as it may seem. 



> You’ve gotta know when love is over
> You’ve gotta learn to carry on
> And with the world upon your shoulders
> You walk away when hope is gone
> When your golden road has reached the end
> You find a way to start again you know
> There’s a time for love a time for letting go


You have shown great strength of character till now. Its time to add a new dimension to it and take a new stand. Pressure her into a divorce and let the reality of life set in for her and yes, for you too... 

You and your son are in my prayers.


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## CH

BigB said:


> I have oft heard the expression "Haze of the affair" and I completely agree that it can make you do stupid things. Here, her actions and reactions are not that of a woman in the haze of the affair. She has made a life for herself, happy or not in your eyes, and is satisfied with it or so she feels.
> 
> To be brutally honest it is you who in a haze - the haze of a marriage dead. You have to accept that those golden days are over and the life has taken a turn, for better or for worse. I can understand where your son is - he is disappointed in both of you - her for walking away and you for refusing to walk away. He has stayed around the "new" her and has seen that she is on a one way street that will never return to you. His frustration is why can't you see it. The longer you maintain this haze you are in the more strenuous your relation is going to get with your son.
> 
> I have followed your story from day one and have agreed largely with the suggestions that have been given here. Now, it is time to move on. Consult a lawyer and safeguard yourself from financial pains down the line. She is going to get vicious on financial matters as she has shown in her attitude till now. I will quote a song, corny as it may seem.
> 
> 
> 
> You have shown great strength of character till now. Its time to add a new dimension to it and take a new stand. Pressure her into a divorce and let the reality of life set in for her and yes, for you too...
> 
> You and your son are in my prayers.


:iagree: Grab your heart from under the boot of her heel and walk away for now. If she wants to come back fine, if not life goes on. You still have your son to worry about.


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## Tanelornpete

> I have oft heard the expression "Haze of the affair" and I completely agree that it can make you do stupid things. Here, her actions and reactions are not that of a woman in the haze of the affair. She has made a life for herself, happy or not in your eyes, and is satisfied with it or so she feels.


Completely missed the concept of the 'haze' of the affair - either that, or deliberately advocating the destruction of a marriage (proof for the latter observation based upon the closing words of your paragraph - - - 'or so she feels' - - - which coincides with the 'fog' concept - and therefore contradicts the rest of the paragraph!)



> To be brutally honest it is you who in a haze - the haze of a marriage dead. You have to accept that those golden days are over and the life has taken a turn, for better or for worse. I can understand where your son is - he is disappointed in both of you - her for walking away and you for refusing to walk away. He has stayed around the "new" her and has seen that she is on a one way street that will never return to you. His frustration is why can't you see it. The longer you maintain this haze you are in the more strenuous your relation is going to get with your son.


I could not disagree more. However, this argument does fit one advocating divorce as the only solution. The stress his son feels can only be explained by his son, who is the only human being right now who knows the reasoning behind the tension. Regardless - 

If the marriage does recover, the lesson learned will be one of infinite value to his son, who is seeing the dark side of life. The chance to see adults overcome this and recover is worth the effort that IAM is putting into this.

Regardless, this is NOT a haze in which IAM finds himself - he is following deliberate steps, and doing it quite well. Just because someone may desire to see others go through divorce whenever possible does not mean that someone who is acting deliberately, and instead taking steps that are not divorce centered (yet) is NOT an indication of any 'haze!' I say the haze is affecting anyone who wants to ignore steps that we've seen work (many times) simple because the only solution they might see is to cut and run when things get difficult.



> I have followed your story from day one and have agreed largely with the suggestions that have been given here. Now, it is time to move on.


If you have really followed this from day one, you'll also remember that there is still another ace that we have for IAM, one that he has not played yet. You are advocating that he give up without using all the tools in his arsenal.

While the decision of when to end this is up to IAM, and that he is certainly not obliged to continue any longer than he desires, with the option to divorce her is always his to choose, he also has the option of choosing to end this after having exhausted every possible avenue, and at the end of the day, being able to look back with a clear conscience, knowing that he did all he can. Advocating that he divorce his wife because she doesn't want to end her affair is a rather lame excuse. Why not just be more honest and argue that divorce is an easier route than trying to work at something? We live in a 'throwaway' 'microwave' mentality society anyway!

In case anyone missed this - if his wife is so happy with her life, then why has she not already filed for divorce? Would that not be the very first thing you would do if the 'real thing' came along?



> Consult a lawyer and safeguard yourself from financial pains down the line. She is going to get vicious on financial matters as she has shown in her attitude till now.


_This is good advice_, regardless of the choice to divorce. It is absolutely necessary, whether IAM chooses to move to the next step in the process of seeking recovery, or decides to skip that one and move to the end of his marriage.


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## iamnottheonlyone

As I told my son, I am not going to be the one to file for divorce. It she does, she does.
I thought when a arrived home tonight my wife would have picked up my son and would have been on her way. But she hadn't. I did find on the stoop a tax bill for the truck, hand delivered. She walked in shortly after. She had some car insurance document in her hand with an old tax bill. Coincidence. That was also for the truck like the one left at my door. The new bill was $30 more. 
I handed it to her and said this is yours. She huffed and got angry. She blamed me for having mail left at the house that she just picked up when she came inthe other day. I said I didn't know about it and it is a bill from June. I said it is her bill ($245). She got heated and said it was not her fault it didn't get paid. I got heated and said it is not my bill. I then told her she can take care of the truck and do what ever she wants with it as I am done with dealing with it. I told her she is constantly angry. I asked her why she is angry at me. She said because "we" don't have any money. 
She said the two of you have fun all the time so there was no need to go away. I said we are not changing our life style because you has changed hers. I said you take care of your things. I will take care of my things. I said if you keep this up I will go to court and get a support order as you contribute nothing to this household. She said then she will get joint custody. I said she would not, as she lives in another city and he lives with me fulltime. She would have to pay support.
I then backed down. I said, "Do you see how difficult this all is? Do you really want me to go to court? If you move home your financial situation will improve." She said she is never ever coming back. That I am controlling. She started swearing. Which she never did before. I said there was no need for that kind of language. She said I was trying to control her ..blah, blah, blah fog stuff. I said I need her to speak to me in a manner that I can understand what she means and feels. She said she didn't have to do anything and I could F-off. She left.
Well I guess I won't be helping to sell the truck. And I certainly will not be paying for the insurance. 
Fog or not, she is going to be completely fiscally independent. She will still be paying the health insurance through her company for me and my son. She can't stop that.
Big Bob and CheatingHubby, you are not being unreasonable. But I can protect my fiances and child from her. If my gut tells me she is doing something funny I will file for legal separation and get a child support order. 
She has lost a lot of weight for a small fit woman. She is stressed.
She talked about therapy for my son and I said he doesn't need it. He is fine with me. It is only when he is with her that he acts up. That is just a teenager not agreeing with his parent.


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## patientone

Just an FYI..my wife has thrown the 'controlling' me speech quite a few times. Funny, because I have not tried to control anything but her seeing the OM, and even that, only twice in random situations. But she still feels 'controlled.' I can see the fog, in yours too, and it is very frustrating.


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## BigB

Tanelornpete said:


> (proof for the latter observation based upon the closing words of your paragraph - - - 'or so she feels' - - - which coincides with the 'fog' concept - and therefore contradicts the rest of the paragraph!)


We can feel wrongly even without being in the haze. That said, she could be in a haze. Then again, what is Love if not a haze that engulfs us and breaks our rationale senses down? She is in love with someone else. If we call it a haze, so be it. 



> I could not disagree more. However, this argument does fit one advocating divorce as the only solution.


I am not proposing divorce as the only solution. I am proposing divorce as a "more" viable solution at this juncture. I kept mum till such point as I though the idea of reconciliation was the more viable one. I need not waste ink by reinstating something that everyone is saying. I speak now, because I feel that this talk of reconciliation is becoming a moot issue. 



> The stress his son feels can only be explained by his son, who is the only human being right now who knows the reasoning behind the tension.


And still we can all understand and explain what the wife feels. Fascinating. 



> If the marriage does recover, the lesson learned will be one of infinite value to his son, who is seeing the dark side of life. The chance to see adults overcome this and recover is worth the effort that IAM is putting into this.


This I agree with albeit with some reservation, however slight. *However, the question is when do we decide that time for playing game (or plan) A or game B is over and an honest retrospection of reality is needed?* And this is a genuine question that I do not know the answer of. 

For me, it is when neither shame nor guilt, neither family nor friends, neither financial difficulty nor emotion turmoil, changes the mind of the dissatisfied spouse. It is then that you throw in the towel. I am really interested in your answer to the question above. Please indulge me with this, even if you summarily ignore rest of my "rant" (here, I said it).



> Regardless, this is NOT a haze in which IAM finds himself - he is following deliberate steps, and doing it quite well.


And I have also acknowledged that he is doing quite well at what he is doing. But that does not automatically mean that he is not in a haze. I stand by my original prognosis that he is in the haze of love that he has for his wife and is ignoring reality just as badly, if not more. He is still fighting for this marriage in his haze of love for his wife just as she is not fighting for the marriage in her haze of love for the OM.



> Just because someone may desire to see others go through divorce whenever possible


I should take an offence to that, but you generally been dismissive of any countering view and intolerant of people with those views, so I will not take it personally. Just for the record, _I am not a sadist who takes pleasure in other people's misery_.



> If you have really followed this from day one, you'll also remember that there is still another ace that we have for IAM,


You got my attention. What is that? Bedbugs? Because right now, that seems to the only possible reason for her to leave the bed of OM. 

And don't say the son. *She has a plan*, she is assimilating him in her new life very slowly and patiently. She is also spending time with the OM's son to gradually get in the role of the "Outside parent". She has made her son spend time with OM's son in her presence so that he sees that she is well accepted and loved on the other side of fence. She has also cleverly not thrown OM in his face, either. A large part of the children's anxiety at the time of parents' divorce is the welfare of the parent who is going to stay away from them. More so, when son and mother part or daughter and father do. She is calming his anxiety by showing him that although in financial trouble, she has a new and better support structure around her. By asking her son to help her out at her new home she has made him get a sense of belonging with that place. It is not apparent yet, but she has planted the seed that the new place is as much his as it is of her. This seed will subconsciously ease the anxiety of her son in the long run. She might be acting emotionally at times, just as any mother missing her child would, but trust me, she has a plan. While IAM is still rooting for her, *she is making very slow and deliberate steps to a normal life with OM*.



> Advocating that he divorce his wife because she doesn't want to end her affair is a rather lame excuse.


What is a valid excuse for divorce in your eyes- Death or physical abuse? Doesn't falling out of love with someone and falling in love with someone else stand as a ground for divorce? If it was a sleazy affair, I would have understood waiting for the lust to wear off and then make an attempt, but her relationship with OM is not based on lust. They seem to be in a slow paced, deliberate relationship, which does not auger too well for IAM. I am really sorry for being the one explaining the rationale behind her actions but what she is doing is almost copybook for someone separating from a clingy person. What changes the equation slightly is the teenage son, barring adjustments for that, she is playing copybook cricket. I apologize IAM, I do not feel that you are clingy and you have not come across as one. I am just trying to clear up the game she is playing and quite successfully at that. 



> Why not just be more honest and argue that divorce is an easier route than trying to work at something? We live in a 'throwaway' 'microwave' mentality society anyway!


Transience in society is a phenomenon that Alvin Toffler could not completely touch in three books, so less said the better. There are two ways of leading life - one by todays standards - which says if something is not working out for you - move on, two- by the old values which say marriage is till death and divorce is not an option. Then again, new age value sees physical infidelity as just a minor offence and "throws away" the baggage of this infidelity and does not carry it on in recovered relationships. Old age values, however, consider physical infidelity as an ultimate act of humiliation and disrespect. What are you proposing be followed here - not throwing away the marriage but throwing away the baggage of infidelity? So, we choose to be New age or old age in pieces about emotions and relationships selectively to fit your POV? 

Remember, they have two relationships going on right now. One, _Husband and wife_ and two, _Infidel and Cuckold_. they will have to 'throwaway' or 'microwave' one of these relationship anyway, come reconciliation or divorce.



> In case anyone missed this - if his wife is so happy with her life, then why has she not already filed for divorce?


I will be PC here. I cannot read her mind like you can so what I say is just my opinion and not the absolute truth. However, if I was her, I would have waited till such time as I was able to mend my relationship with the son enough to discuss divorce with him. Once I would have explained my rationale of divorce to the son, I would have filed. Right now, the son is no condition to look beyond the hurt and listen to her. She is bidding for time. Also, she might not be in a financial position to file right now and must be looking at cheaper options to file. She might also be doing research on their financial situation before filing for divorce. I can go on and give you one million reasons, other than remourse and insecurity about her relationship with the OM, for not filing for divorce and they would be just as empty as your thesis of her not being happy right now. 

She is not happy only when she is talking to IAM. There is enough ugliness in any divorce to make people uncomfortable, angry and unhappy while talking to estranged spouse. She has said so in her last call


> "Please just stop. I wasn't happy and now I am. I just need to see my son more.I am not coming back.You have all OUR friends and you still have some of my stuff in your house. I just want my son and financial ease and independence."


. What makes your prognosis more accurate and truthful than her own admission of happiness? All accounts of her unhappiness is when she sees him happy. For all we know that might be because she wants IAM to suffer - she might not be at the point where love turn to apathy, she might still be at the anger stage where she holds IAM responsible for real or imagined pain. She has already created a problem in the form of his "Financial irresponsibility". In fact this might be a ploy to work him up enough to act irrationally. It has been assumed here that she is a foolish emotionally weak woman who is going with the flow. What if, in accordance with my reading, she is indeed working with a plan? Then all that IAM is doing right now, is giving her time to line her ducks in a row. 



> Would that not be the very first thing you would do if the 'real thing' came along?


If you are asking my direct opinion and it is not a rhetorical question. Yes, I will file for divorce if the real thing came along and will do so even before PA starts. I believe in sanctity of marriage and all the other small things that most cheaters consider bull$$$$. 

I am not one that advocates divorce at all stages of discord, however, I am not one who advocates reconciliation at all cost either. I believe being inflexible and sticking with either stand, come hell or high water, is equally obtuse. I do not advocate putting life on hold for six months or a year on a slim hope that somehow two people will fall out of love. IAM will have to make her fall in love with him all over again and it will be a struggle far greater than this brave man is facing right now. He has acknowledged as much in his posts that he will have to remain attractive and make her fall in love with her all over. But will be able to remain attractive with all the resentment in his heart about her actions? Is it worth the effort? Right now, her attitude does not suggest that.


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## Blue Moon

Tanelornpete said:


> Advocating that he divorce his wife because she doesn't want to end her affair is a rather lame excuse..


?????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am trying to follow a very simple course of action predicated on the belief that she currently loves another man. Wait it out. Most affair fail. Do no harm. (That is one thing I have not done well today.) Refuse to be a doormat. Live my life nornally with my son. Try not to let my love fire get extinguished. Live my life woth the values I believe in and the values we taught our son. Let her divorce me.


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## Wisp

I must say a lot of what BigB says rings true to me, I have said as well that your wife is following a plan, it is methodical and while she is taking pain it is still on course. I am certain she is getting advice from someone. 

It is her involvement of your son in the lives of the OM and his family that disturbs me.

It would be wise to let your son know that at all times if he is not comfortable with the OM and his family it is his right tell him mom not include him in any contact with them. 

I may be under correction but I have read somewhere that you may be able to raise a RO against any contact between your son and OM & his family. 

You have a plan, stick to it and many best wishes. Holding thumbs, trusting that this works out for you.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Whether your marriage works out or not, at the end of the day IANTOO, you can look at yourself, your son, your friends and family (incl. hers) and know that you took every reasonable action to resolve the issues that brought you to this point, and left the door open for her to return. Plain and simple.

That said, you know that she is very likely getting all sorts of "advice" right now, incl. financial. That specific advice is especially important to her since that is a "hot button" for her. I think you should consider legal advice within the next couple of weeks. That is for your protection and clearly not to "hurt" her. But both cmf and I got our spouses attention when we did it. While that was not the goal, it was sort of a side benefit. Could go either way - wake her up or push her futher away. It is her state of mind and the "advice" she is surely getting that makes me a little nervous. 

My attorney said you ALWAYS want to be the first to file. I know that goes against the "no divorce" train of thought, but you can take legal actions simply to protect yourself/son. Remember, many consults are free (I found those who wanted $$ for a consult charged overall significantly more to be retained.) If you set up several consults, you will probably find someone you think you can work with. Divorce doesn't need a super expensive attorney - most respected general or family law attorneys can handle most situations quite well. Remember, consults don't necessarily mean filing and filing doesn't mean divorce. PLUS, she nor your son need to know about you simply getting some information. I do think it is time to get the information.

Hang in there- I know this daily walk in the swamp in exhausting, but YOU are becoming a better man everyday.


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## cmf

IANTOO- She seems to be under the impression that divorce will automatically free up money for her and make things easier. She needs to hear from a lawyer that all that is untrue. In certain states , adultry and abandonment will most definetly affect alimony. She may think that she will also get child support from you. I cant imagine a lawyer is telling her that she will get all that money out of you after what she has done. You were correct in telling her that she may have to pay you some child support. She chose to leave you and her son. She did not take him with her and he is old enough to choose where he wants to live, and to some extent how much time he spends with her. She is probably getting divorce advice from OM and his situation is very different. Any lawyer would have advised her NOT to leave the home. Filing a request with the courts for full custody, all marital assets, child support , supervised visitation , all due to adultry and abandonment will certainly show her reality. That's exactly what my lawyer did and had a sheriff serve him at his home in front of everyone. I also requested to be able to leave my current city with my children .
Nobody gets what they want out of divorce,everyone loses. That is reality. I had to face it too. I most likely would have had to allow my kids to be in the home with OW overnights each week. I would have had to spend a lot of money to prove adultry and the emotional impact the immoral living situation would have on my kids. The amount of child support was lower than I thought it would be. All of this really made my H mad, but it also pretty much forced him to see through all the fog. And all this was with collabrative divorce. We met for 3 months trying to work out financial and custody issues. He tried to get his way by being nice at times, but I stuck to my guns on all custody issues. I let the courts dictate the financial issues- he had no choice but to follow them, as they were the minimum standards without me even fighting him. It's hard when the legal realities are what gets through to them, but their sense of reality is very distorted in the affair. Neverwouldhaveguessed is right with her advice.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Having had the night to think things over from yesterday's discussion I came to a number of conclusions. Firstly, I need more practice/training in communicating. She said a number of times I can't tell her what to do. And I wasn't, so I thought. I am not an "I" person. I don't speak about me. However, I see how in relationship discussion using "you" can sound controlling. I said things like, "You need to express your feelings to me when you a relating information about us." It would have been better for me to use the first person. "I need to understand your feelings towards me when you are relating information." Any other suggestions?
Secondly, the evil twin is ugly. The foul language I can hardly tolerate. She has always been a classy woman. She has become vulgar. She sees this as freedom. At dinner last night with my friend J said that a couple of years ago she had remarked to him that being with me had changed her life for the better, exposed her to a more refined world and great experiences. (How did this go so wrong?) He said she had only good things to say about me, ever. I guess this is typical, as the evil twin appears.
Before school starts I will ask her for a weekly contribution to the household. I will work on the numbers. If she doesn't agree then I will proceed to get a court order for child support.
After reviewing all these things in my head I decided I would call and simply apologize for my side of things last night. Nothing more, just "I'm sorry about last night." CMF did that a couple of months ago and that was the right thing to do. So I did it. Her response was, "People say some things they don't mean in the heat of the moment." Wow! That was unexpected. I almost ran that one down. But I let it pass.
Remember people, she only sees the OM a couple days a week. She is barely out of fantasy land. I might be in a better position if she was living with him, as strange as that seems.
What I am most concerned about now is whether or not I have the stamina to go as long as it takes. I think I only have a couple of months left in me. That evil twin with the filthy mouth is not attractive. She doesn't have the upper hand any more. I am not in a fog of love. I will not be manipulated. I am thinking very clearly She has not mentioned divorce and neither have I. So I conclude there is no pressure to marry. She has complete independence. She likes the concept but is stressed by the reality.


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## Wisp

Great to read your response.

“Before school starts I will ask her for a weekly contribution to the household. I will work on the numbers. If she doesn't agree then I will proceed to get a court order for child support”… if you had left and she stayed with your son you would have had to contribute, this goes to say she should… part of the consequences.

You need hang in there but set a time limit in your mind, a year is too long and allows her to settle and recover her finances with or without the OM’s help.

Continue to work on yourself, change for the better. 

Best wishes.


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## Tanelornpete

Blue Moon said:


> ?????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Think about it


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## iamnottheonlyone

Big Bob,
I have considered in the past that there may be a combination of things going on here. The mid-life crisis. Unhappiness havong nothing to do with me but deflected on me. The Walk Away Spouse- This would fit into your theory. She had a plan for some time , but she was just keeping it to herself and had not initiated any action until the affair. Lastly, hormones. The end result is that I am where I am. There are no mental health or substance abuse issues.
Paln A and patience, patience, patience, I don't talk divorce.


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## cmf

Just a thought...does she realize how expensive it will be to retain a lawyer( even in a collaborative divorce)? How would she even pay for it? Does she expect you to pick up the bill? You could actually petition for her to pay YOUR lawyer fees. She is clearly not thinking . If you file with the courts first she will not have time to save up money. This is not meant to punish her, but rather bring reality into the picture quicker. Chid support will be established first, as she has not been contributing anything for months. If she does retain a lawyer, the lawyer will REALLY burst her bubble as far as her financial demands, the lawyer will spell out for her what her public affair will cost her in any settlement. And yes this will make her very angry, but she is pretty much there already.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

It is as though she thinks the current situation can go on indefinately, with the hopes that you will finally "see the light", agree with her choices and finance them. Once you do this, she hopes your son with jump on board, too. Reality check needed.


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## BigB

IAM, I am not pushing you or advising you to go for divorce all out but keep an open mind about it. I understand the concept of love busters and deposit in love bank but I do not agree with them effective all the time. Sometime, it is good to rattle the cage once in a while. There are smart ways of doing it without sounding controlling, abusive or disrespectful. 

cmf has made a very good point here. Does she realize how much it is going to cost in terms of money to go for divorce? The next time the two of you have a non-confrontational meeting ask her in a polite tone, sounding almost sad, "Do you have a plan how we are going to pay for the divorce and manage to provide our son the same lifestyle after we both have only half the money to do it with?" Admit that you have been thinking about the finances, as she suggested you start doing, and that you need her help in sorting this mess out. 

This might put her off a little because essentially you are asking her to be thoughtful about you and your son and she is in no mood to do so. This is a risk you will have to take. But, this will start the chain of thought going and also without talking about starting with a divorce, you are essentially letting her know that you have reached a point where you are almost ready to walk away. 

There is another possibility that I see at play here and some words in your last post which were used for the for the first time by you got me thinking (mid-life crisis, hormones). She might be in a kind of trial marriage thing with this OM and might still be thinking that in the worst case scenario she will come back to you and since she has kept you off balance the whole time, she will still hold a upper hand while coming back. 

Plan A is good to follow and it has obviously kept you motivated, which is a good thing. I am just asking for a little improvisation now and then to keep her off balance too. I hate to see that she is yanking your chain so easily and you are essentially playing into her hands. 

I prayed for you at the mass today. Hang in there!


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## iamnottheonlyone

Nearly an anxiety free day. However, when my thoughts turned to her, they were bubbling towards angry. This is new to me. 
I had a great day yesterday with a couple of our mutual friends who were extremely supportive. The husband of that pair had a similar experience and we laughed about the similarities. I reviewed the script with him. He hadn't realized that his situation was so similar to most others. What a day!
W and I are meeting Wednesday for my son's gridiron club. I am not looking forward to seeing her. That is a new feeling. What does this mean? I am thinking more and more a bout packing up all her things and shipping them to her.


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## Tanelornpete

IAM, my advice is to start considering a plan B before you lose anything you may have left for her...


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## Affaircare

IAM~

I have to tell ya that from what I can see, Plan B/Consequences stage is fast approaching. This is a stage in which you write a letter to your spouse, tell them that you love them and understand the things you did to contribute to the downfall of the marriage, let them know you are willing to work on yourself and on the relationship so you can both be loved and happy...but that you can not do that until they have ended it with their lover for once and for all, and that until they do that you ask they respect your request for no contact. Then you give her the name of a intermediary/contact who she can contact for things like scheduling requests, and end it by saying you love her and want to still be married as soon as she follows the suggestions for ending all contact and returning. Here are some Sample Plan B/Consequences Letters. 

I would suggest for you that you start reading up on this stage and making some of the preparations such as packing her things, putting them in a storage unit, paying for a month, and mailing her the key via UPS. Find an intermediary or so that when/if she freaks out and tries to call 100 times or uses swear words, etc. that you are protected from her vitriol. Begin to set up the finances and bills and banking, the "visitation" schedule on regular days etc. --literally every aspect of your life--for the time when you will no longer have contact with her. 

At this time it is not convenient for you to have your son visit "when it's convenient for her" because you are not able to have a life of your own or set a schedule never knowing if he'll be around or not. So set up "every Friday" and let her re-arrange her life around the inconvenience of raising a child (and by the way, I say that as a mom who has and loves kids...the one who "walks away" does need to realize that its not all about them and "when they get their life together.") So I'm just saying I can see the time coming up fairly quickly and you'd probably be wise to get things set up as soon as possible.


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## Affaircare

You know what's funny? Tanelorn sat here right next to me and wrote that, and I had no idea he was doing that!  He finished first! :lol: Well I guess great minds think alike, huh?


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## jar

Iam

I know how you feel. I know I haven’t done things in exactly the normal order. As you know I went extreme limited contact when I left home. It was really tough. Read through my posts there are plenty of posts of me venting. It did me a lot of good. It really allowed me to regroup and deal with myself. It really helped a lot. I was so busy reacting to my wife and her emotions I couldn’t think straight. I feel like I have my feet back under me now.

Patience…Patience….Patience

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

Yes, I am thinking about it. We are meeting tomorrow for football. I am not looking forward to that at all. I would rather not go. That evil twin thing really set me back. I am closer and closer to packing whats left and changing the locks. Patience, patience, patience.


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## Affaircare

IAM~

It really does sound like you're burning out. In addition to meditating, praying, star gazing or whatever spiritual activity brings you peace, I would suggest: 

1) Work on lining up either an intermediary or something like this: The Parenting Notebook for any communications regarding your son. If she does not have electricity or internet in her love nest, then use that concept but use a "Real" notebook. For virtually everything else there pretty much is no need for her to contact you. 

2) If needed you may need to either change your phone and cellphone and email, or block her. So you may want to prepare to change those avenues of contact.

3) Begin working on your Plan B/Consequences Letter. You'll need to be able to identify what some of the things were that you did to end the marriage, and ways that you both HAVE ALREADY changed and ways that you are planning to change/continuing to change (some changes are ongoing...). 

4) Begin making the financial plans or arrangements to completely disentangle finances. 

5) Begin getting the items needed to pack her things, items needed to change locks or add a lock, price out a storage unit for one month, etc. 

6) Begin to consider how to list the things you'd need in order to work on reconciliation. As we always do, I would suggest a MINIMUM of a) A No Contact Letter that she writes and you send/mail; b) Access to all online accounts such as cellphone records, email, FB, etc. so you can verify her honesty; and c) Commitment backed by actions that she is willing to work on herself and her issues, and work on the relationship to create a happy, loving marriage for both of you.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am going to take Plan A along for a bit more. I read ACs post to JAR and I am in a similar situation. We are meetin today to work together. It would be a good time to show my good side. 
It is just that as the pain diminishes and I am focusing on her anywhere near as much as was last month, I see I don't "need" her. There are plenty of other fish in the sea who are nibbling at me. Subconciously I am telling myself, why should I tolerate the Evil Twin. Well, like JAR, I made a vow and I plan to keep it. Plan A for a while longer even though I don't think I can wait until the affair ends. I will prepare for Plan B.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I managed to hold it together today. Slightly more positive than emotionally neutral when we saw each other. No logistical discussion outside of the football. She looked good but it had very little affect on me.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I managed to hold it together today. I was lightly more positive than emotionally neutral when we saw each other. No logistical discussion outside of the football. She looked good but it had very little affect on me. 
She is still painting the rooms at her "home". She gave me the cell phone bill that accidentally went to address. She did not mention the truck at all.
But I know she is a great actress, so who knows what is goiing on in that head of hers.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I watched the comedian Sinbad on the Comedy Channel tonight. Very funny. His bit is all about long term marriages. He hits the nail on the head. He jokes about how women get tired of their men. Yet the grass is rarely greener.
He was divorced for 10 years after 8 years of marriage, then married the same woman. She couldn't train another man to behave like Sinbad.
The anxiety is almost gone. I am still in love with my wife! How did that happen? The fact that she has a lover isn't bothering to the point of distraction any more. I might be able to outlast the affair.


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## turnera

Great point.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I received a text message from my wife. She thanked me for taking care of the football Gridiron Club details for the coming week's events. 
For the entire month of August she has spent 4 nights with her son.
There has been no drama the last week. I am just hanging in there, Plan A, patience, patience, patience.
I am studying relationship communication skills.
As I said to my wife last year, why do all these cheating women want the bad boys. Then you talk with them and all they say is they are looking for a sensitive guy who will be vulnerable. Well for 2 months this year I was the sensitive, vulnerable guy who got kicked in the ..... Now I have a spine again. We will see how this plays out.


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## turnera

iamnottheonlyone said:


> why do all these cheating women want the bad boys.


I equate it with the 40 year old men who go out and buy a Mustang. It was their 'dream' in high school - be the hot guy with the hot car and scoop up all the hot chicks. But they take the safe route, the practical route; then later, they go back and buy the Mustang and try to relive that feeling they thought they would have gotten back in high school if they had just had that hot Mustang.

High school girls secretly want the John Travolta from Grease, but they choose Richie Cunningham from Happy Days because he's practical. But all their life, they've been wishing they'd experienced John Travolta. Even when they know it's a dead end.


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## iamnottheonlyone

And I'm driving the Honda Civic! (What do they say? It's not the size of the engine, its the skill of the driver!)


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife swung by the house to pick up my son. She did not come in the house. I was going to dinner with a friend so I waited 5 minutes until I thought she left. She hadn't. She asked wear I was going. I told her I was going to dinner. As she drove off she honked the horn, smiled and waived. The first time she has done that in forever. Could she be a little jealous or happy that I am getting by without her?


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## turnera

One of the things I often recommend to betrayed spouses is to 'get a life.' That way, the WS sees that you WILL move on without them. 

You'd be surprised how many of them turn around once that happens. You are no longer feeding their ego.


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## Affaircare

So how ya doing IAM? Here's a little "sumthin' sumthin'" for you to meditate on when you're having a moment.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thanks AC. You know how that saved my sanity back 3 months ago. Real skiing is only a few months away. Just as predicted in the script timeline, I am recovering emotionally. However, I still have trouble at 4 am. I miss rolling over and hugging my wife. The pillow just doesn't do it. I turn on the tv and watch ESPN. I think I could be ready to MC my own sports show now. 
I am on a slippery slope. I have gone to lunch with a gal and had coffee with two others. I was at a cross roads. Should I start meds or should I seek distraction. I chose distraction. Female friends who find me interesting. That's all (for the moment.)
My wife came by today to pick up my son for an over night. As you know I still call her "Honey" and when she leaves I tell her "Love you". She aked to take a couple items. Her rollers and a blow dryer. She didn't take any of her other things in the same cabinet including personal female products. What's up with that?
I was absolutely under control. Also, I have been going to the gym so regularly, I am in the best shape of my life..really.


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## nice777guy

You know, I think that's good that you still tell her you love her - even with all that she's done. Its a lot healthier than hating her - and its good to continue being honest as long as that's how you really feel.

At this point I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about coffee with a friend. Maybe I'm wrong - but simply the fact that you are aware that its a slippery slope shows that you are keeping it in perspective.

Good luck....


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## Affaircare

Regarding meds or distraction ... this is purely my own personal opinion. Regarding meds you could go the route of doping yourself with anti-D's but for the most part I think that's uncalled for. You are not clinically depressed--you are depressed because something depressing is occurring in your life (aka, situational depression). Thus to my mind, it seems reasonable that you'd be somewhat depressed and that it would continue as long as the depressing situation continues! 

BUT I remember when I was in that situation that my mind did at times seem to race and focus on the negative, so I do suggest the option of herbs. I offer this because herbs are natural and help you to naturally do what your body needs to do by supporting, not by chemically medicating. Some herbs that I've heard are helpful are St. John's Wort, Kava Kava, and Valarian Root. Specifically, St. John's Wort does not utter stop all sad thoughts nor "lift the mood" but it does give you that second it takes to tell yourself, "Wait...stop. This is just me feeling sad" and sort of keeps moods feeling a little more even keel. Kava Kava is an herb that relaxes but keeps mental clarity, so you feel "chilled out" but not like a muscle relaxant. In a way it feels like it takes the edge off (that antsy feeling). Finally Valerian also is an herb that also relaxes but it can make you feel pretty sleepy--it's more anti-anxiety. But let's face it some of the issue here is anxiety over what's going to happen! So if you have trouble sleeping you may want to take St. John's or Kava Kava during the day, and Valerian right before bed. 

Regarding the distractions--here's one issue you're going to have if you go too much down that path. You are a married man. Your wife has gone chasing down "greener grass" and she may be too stubborn to return even once she KNOWS grass is not greener living in the 'burbs, putting up with his ex and kids, and OM won't marry her! BUT if she does figure it out and has the guts to admit she was wrong...you will then be the one who's chasing "greener grass" having been tempted by the other fish out there in the sea! 

Soooooo...I'm just gonna say it right out, IAM. Please be careful because you are dancing ON the fire!


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## Sadara

iamnottheonlyone said:


> She didn't take any of her other things in the same cabinet including personal female products. What's up with that?


She's probably already purchased more and didn't "need" the ones in the cabinet. I wouldn't read too much into that. I've changed products mid-package and never finished the old product, who knows why.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Wife just got in from London. She drove up with my son in the truck having picked him up from afternoon football. I thought about not going out to talk to her. But I am feeling good so I didn't think it would be a negative experience. We chatted about son's football for the coming week. She looked great but it did not overwhelm me. I kissed her on the cheek when she left. She did not offer it. No problem. I am not letting her off the hook now.
I look back at the breakup and for the first couple of weeks I would kiss her on the lips. They were soft and warm...receptive. But I couldn't do more than that. Now we are fairly friendly. She did mention that she wanted to sell the truck and I did not respond. But I was charming. 
I don't have many posts as the stress is mostly gone. I am still having trouble staying asleep. The sleeplessness for the past couple days has been mostly the "slippery slope." I do not want to lead any woman on. Causing anyone else pain would crush me. I can say that having other women appreciate me clearly helped me today. The fact that I got no response from my wife yet I kissed her felt good. I will persue her like her boyfriend did.


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## iamnottheonlyone

She has a ton of stuff here. Once she backs the truck up to the door then I will know where I really stand. 
AC, thanks much for that advice. As I have nearly fully recovered and I still love my wife is nothing short of a miracle. I f she files for divorce then I will certainly have a hiccup. But the longer this goes on the more certain that this boyfriend thing can't work. Other than work and sex they have nothing in common. I was talking to a gal yesterday who said her relationship ended when he could no longer tolerate her disposing of her dental floss in the toilet. He never said anything until he exploded. All down hill from there.
But like has been said before, she could be far stubborn. So I am not backing down. Plan A. Patience, patience, patience.


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## NotJustMe

iamnottheonlyone said:


> She has a ton of stuff here. Once she backs the truck up to the door then I will know where I really stand.


Be careful, this sort of situation could just turn into you enabling the affair. Her stuff being there could be serving a dual-purpose for her:

1. It ties a string to you, and she knows that you won't be able to fully move on until she moves it all out, so she leaves it there as a means of having some level on control over you.

2. She doesn't has room for all of it, and so she is using your good nature and taking advantage of the free storage space.


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## efoghorjos

There is this saying that the devil you know is better than the angel you don't know. It is advisable to keep up your relationship; broken relationships are both unhealthy for the children and the partners involved.
You can fashion a way to take care of the problem. If there are people who have volunteered to mediate in the dispute, allow them. It's possible your wife would have respect for one of them and decide to have a change of heart.
Work on your current relationship rather than escaping from it to seek solace elsewhere which may also turn out to be laden with same problem.


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## nice777guy

NotJustMe said:


> 1. It ties a string to you, and she knows that you won't be able to fully move on until she moves it all out, so she leaves it there as a means of having some level on control over you.
> 
> 2. She doesn't has room for all of it, and so she is using your good nature and taking advantage of the free storage space.


:iagree:


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## turnera

I like the advise often given: If you give her a time to get it out, and she doesn't, wait a week or two and then box up all her stuff and put it out on the curb. Inform her that it is there, and that you have called Purple Heart, who will be there on X day to pick up whatever is remaining.

Then it is HER choice.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am listening. And thinking.
I met my wife at my son's game today. My mother-in-law came along. She was exceedingly nice to me. My wife was...okay. No kiss on the cheek. The mother-in-law's attitude took me back a bit. It seems I have a fan I didn't appreciate earlier this summer.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I did have a "cold sweat" night last night. 
My wife and I worked together for a few hours on the gridiron potluck dinner for the football team. I had jotted down a bunch of notes for a presentation. I reveiwed them with the other parents involved. The parents presented a sampling of what is wrong with our families.
Four captains for the team. Here is the status of the parents: 3 divorced and 1 seperated. One kid's parents are divorced and do not participate at all. Two others, it is just the mothers. Last winter I thought my W and I would be offering stability to the program. We did grab the reigns and stear the wagon. But now we are in the same boat as the other families. If I hadn't been on TAM I am pretty certain my son would have only one parent involved. Thank you TAM people!
So we worked well together. I complemented her casually throughout the night... how she looked and the things she did. I got the biggest thank you for a simple act...a cup of ice with a bottle of water. Ultimately W did the principal presentation and did follow up. 
Finished the night with kissing her on the cheek and telling her I love her.
So back to the "cold sweat" night. I felt really good yeaterday with W. Nothing was forced. I know that my "distractions" have helped me with the confidence. Slights by W don't have a dramatic impact and I just move through it since I know other women value me. One of them said to me this week that my W was a fool to let me go. (Ofcourse this woman is seeing my very best and new side.)
The cold sweat came last night when I realized I could really go on with out her. That a couple of my new friends are amazing women who my wife would be second fiddle to. I could fall for either of them. 
So I am setting boundaries today. My twentieth anniversary is 1 month away. Originally taking Harley's advice, I set that date as my Plan B date. But all relationships are different. This affair seems to be decaying but not at the pace a "traditional" affair would, primarily due to the distance between their homes and natur of their jobs. If I can control my distraction I can stretch this out for a few more months.


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## turnera

That's why you have to set a time limit, before you go to Plan B.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I haven't been back here writing for 5 days. Somethings have happened, but of little consequence. I got an email from my wife early yesterday about the truck. She didn't want to keep it any longer, so either we could switch cars or she was going to trade it in as is. I told her I wouldn't switch. Later yesterday she contscted me by email again and told me she justed traded it in and leased an Accord. She just came by to pick up my son for the night. This past week has been a record for her. She has had him four out of the last 10 nights. She is starting to act more like a parent.
In any case, she came by with the new car. I jumped in. We had a friendly conversation. I kissed her on the check, told her "love you" and went on my way. Oh, she brought me butter and salt from Paris. Small gifts but gifts nonetheless. 
When my son was over his mom's this week I hung out with a couple nice women. Both understand that I am not ready and it turns out they would not be ready for a man who is simply seperated. Isn't that refreshing! They won't get involved with a married man. Who knew? lol


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## turnera

Good for you for keeping your boundaries! And she's respecting you!


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## iamnottheonlyone

Today my wife continued working on the things she needed to get done with her new car. Because she no longer lives in the city, she doesn't get the city discount for the tolls. She finds this out while she is getting her new transponder. So she has mine shut off. She calls me after she does this. I nearly went off. It was just so inconsiderate. She said she hoped I would have enough time to get it squared away today. How thoughtful. Well if it was a test of my virtues, I believe I passed. 
Second day of school. I spoke to my son tonight about cell phone use in the evening when he should be studying. Last year there was no phone use from 5 to 10. This year I was willing to make it 6:30 to 9:00. He wanted full use all time with his new responsible efforts. It deteriorated into his parents failed him. We were not what we portrayed ourselves to be. I had to explain to him that I was not responsible for her affair. Then he started to take blame. I stopped arguing as that is unacceptable. Why do even smart kids like him blame themselves? I never felt responsible for my parents divorce. Nor was I responsible. Only the unfaithful spouse is resonsible for the affair. I let him know that (again).


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

IANTOO,

Teenagers will typically try to get as much freedom as they can. It is the nature of the beast. They see their peers and compare all the time. Also, there are TONS of conversations among themselves regarding their parents marriage problems/divorce/"issues".

If he is one year from college, you might consider total freedom with the cell phone at some point in time (you can always put conditions on it like grades, respectful behavior,etc..) That way you can see how they manage the complete freedom they will have very shortly - just my opinion.

Regarding her "thoughtlessness", just let me say that my H is still not home. Mostly, because I have seen his inconsideration with a new light. Not 100% I want to go back to that. I'm kind of overwhelmed by that fact that I have changed SOOOO much, and him, well......

Have a nice weekend.


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## turnera

Good point about the phone use: tie it with HIM making responsible choices. Gives him a reason to step up to the plate. And if he's going to make mistakes, go overboard with texting, etc., it's better he do that at home, with high school grades, rather than away at college, where you have no control, with grades you're paying for!


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thanks for the help.
Wife came to the football game tonight with her parents. She was more than pleasant but, again, would not sit next to me. Parents were great to me but appeared abit uncomfortable. Plan A continues. I called her "honey" all night and said I love you when she left. I didn't get a rise out of her. Just chugging along.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Following in Jar's footsteps...Good conversations make for good friends. Election day today. So I called my wife to discuss the candidates. "We" discussed who "we" would vote for. Then we reviewed football gridiron fundraising. She seems to want to make an effort here to be sure that our son feels she still holds interest in him. I am doing the lion's share of work seeking her advice. I call her "Honey" every time I speak with her. She does not object. She actual "honied" me back last week. I also continue to say I love you at the end of every phone conversation or when we see each other. No objection there either.


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## i_feel_broken

Hi IANTOO,

as you know I have been following your story and just wondered how you felt about your wife right now?? you don't seem to express your feelings for her that often. Despite everything are you certain you still love her?? would you be able to take her back and start over?? How do you think your son would react if that were to happen??

just curious


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## iamnottheonlyone

Sorry that I haven't been posting. There has been little drama to report. I love my wife deeply. I am feeling how I felt before I discovered her cheating. I would take her back. I talk with a couple of my close friends almost daily. They offer advice much like AC and Pete. I am very stable right now. No panic, no anxiety, no anger towards her. (Although I do get angry when I think of OM..that piece of CR*P.) I know from following JAR and CMF it is likely a few more months before she truly starts to break.
At my son's game yesterday my inlaws showed again. They treated me very well. My wife and I worked on fund raising together and sat together. They all went to dinner last night and I was not invited. That was not a trigger. However, I did have one mild trigger. My wife has a new ring tone on her phone. It is a Lady GaGa song that I know is part of her little fantasy. So when her phone rang with the tone I knew it was the boyfriend.
I should be feeling her wrath shortly as I took her off my car insurance. She now has her new car and she can pay for all of it.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Excellent decision on the car insurance. She will fuss and when she does, I would calmly indicate that she has given you every impression that she wants her own life, independent from you. That means support yourself, dear.


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## iamnottheonlyone

October 7th is our 20th anniversary. There is no way this will be resolved in 3 weeks. On the 21st of this month it will be 5 months since I discovered my wife's infidelity.
What if anything should I do for my anniversary? I saw what JAR did and what CMF did. But the 20th is a big one.
Six months ago I was sitting on my couch watching tv. I was thinking what a great life I have. A marvelous wife and wonderful son. They were the center of my life. I was pondering what I would do for my 20th. The number one thing was going to be renewing our vows. A big celebration with our friends and family. This is all so much fantasy now. And it was fantasy then. I just didn't know it.
Any and all suggestions welcome. Maybe I can make a dent in her shield.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Maybe a homemade card with a memory from each of the 20 years and a piece of jewelry that matches something you've already given her (pearl earrings for that pearl bracelet.) 

My best friend and I exchange something from Tiffany's for our landmark birthdays. Any girl would LOVE something from Tiffany's -even a gift card.

Whatever it is, make sure it is somewhat personal or something you KNOW she will love. Point is, make sure you one-up the OM (and that doesn't need to mean $$.)


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

If you were a little closer to reconciling, I would suggest a treasure hunt with 20 stops (the 20th being that special gift.) I love doing things for others - too bad my husband isn't so great at it


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## iamnottheonlyone

Oh I like the idea of something from each year.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

I like it,too. It will show you put much thought into it AND will let her remember the good times. It could be just memories/thoughts on paper,or incoporate several gifts or even small ones for each year. You've got plenty of time to brainstorm. Glad I could help.


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## Affaircare

I agree, I like the idea of something from each year, whether that be a gift that represents that year or a card/old letter/photo or something that jogs a good memory. It will be a *wonderful* way to remind her that she was happy and that you two have literally years and years...decades of ties that bind. 

REALLY good suggestion Never!! :smthumbup:


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## turnera

And go ahead and plan the party. She can come...or not.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My friend S has been transferring old video tapes on to his computer the past couple of weeks. I dug out the video of our wedding and some of the video of our family the first 10 years. I am going to get them transferred to disks or chips and give copies to my wife for our anniversary. 
I have dozens of family pictures framed in the house. I think I will copy them and then put them in a album for her. Finally, I think I will get her a piece of jewelry. We have been to Hawaii about 10 times and that is where we honeymooned. I will get a unique Hawaiian piece (rather than the 20 year ring) She was wearing about $10,000 worth of jewelry on her fingers before all this. She still wears the Irish wedding band on her right hand (I am sure she wears it for OM to show her commitment. lol)
Yesterday I sent her a text. I haven't texted her in some time. The text read. "Just a friendly reminder...I love you the most in the world. But you knew that."
She called me in the afternoon. I answered the usual way, "Hi Honey". She called about the car insurance and she spoke very normally, as did I. And I said, "Love you" before I hung up, as has been my habit.
Anniversary October 7


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

$10,000 on her fingers??? In my dreams.....


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## iamnottheonlyone

My son's football game was last night. I had set up the table for our fundraiser that includes clothing with the team logo. My wife showed up a few minutes later along with some of the other parents who were helping out. She was wearing tight running wear. (appropriate for this event?) And she looked hot. I went to kiss her on the cheek and she pulled away. I wasn't upset as I have my mojo back!!! It turned out she was feeling sick. Likely a cold. We talked and she held my gaze for a couple minutes. That changed during the course of the evening but it was VERY interesting. 
I had ordered polo jerseys for me and my son. I got them in medium. My wife thought they were too small. So I pulled off the shirt I was wearing to try on the polo. When I did I noticed her surprise as well as a couple of the other moms. One of the moms said, "You have an incredible body." Noone has ever said that to me before. Ever. But then again I have never worked out 7 days a week before. Even as a varsity athlete in college I was never this toned. My wife was clearly taken back by what she saw and what was said. For the rest of the night she was kind of zoned out when talking to me. At the end of the night we kissed on the cheek and I told her I loved her (in front of other people). No negative responce.
Patience.


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## land2634

I think the fact that you are showing your wife the new you around other people can definitely work to your advantage. These people will see what is going on and almost assuredly wonder (and maybe even ask) what your wife would be thinking by throwing away your marriage. You're doing a great job. Keep it up.


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## turnera

Yep.


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## jar

Iam 

Good for you…..Do you think wife was looking hot and sexy for you…..

I am sure she didn’t like hearing other woman’s comments about how good you were looking

Stay the coarse patient’s patient’s patients.

You are doing awesome
JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

It was odd. There was no reason for her to be dressed like that for the ball game. And like I said. She stared into my eyes while she talked and smiled. Just rollercoaster stuff. The boyfriend is in the picture, but I think she is dealing with some issues as part of the real world outside her fantasy travel. I was surprised by the reactionwhen I took my shirt off. I was on the "Affair Diet" for two months, down 15 pounds. I don't like the gym, per se, but I like the results.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My birthday is this weekend and my 20th wedding anniversary is next weekend.
With this context I sent my wife a text while she was away telling her how great she looked Friday and that I love her "the most in the world." She comes in this afternoon from Europe. I don't expect any response. 
I am going to start on that scrap book today. Twenty years of memories.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife called this afternoon. I answered with my usual "Hi Honey." She worked the Paris trip the last two days while sick. She went to the local clinic near where she lives to get it checked out. Could be strep. I asked her if I could do anything for her. She cordially refused. She then chit chatted about our son. She didn't have to call to tell me any of this. She could have texted or Emailed. When all was said and done I told her if she needed anything she should call me. I told her I loved her. She told me "Thank you." 
She hasn't refused or objected to any of my continuing "niceness". Not even a hint of attitude.


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## turnera

That's progress, right?


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## iamnottheonlyone

W texted me this morning. She is feeling better but staying in bed for the day. I texted back that I was in her neighborhood and that if she needed anything she could contact me and I would swing by. (I have never been there and don't really know where it is. I would rather never see the place.) She will come to the game Friday night. I will report back.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I received a call today from the mechanic that was working on my wife's truck. I seems there is a remaining balance for work performed. I had paid the bills for repairs on the truck after I discovered the affair. This bill I told them to send to her. I told him the circumstances. I also told him that I she turns out to be a stiff I will take care of it. He doesn't deserve to be in the middle. It will be interesting to see how she reacts.


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## Affaircare

Very well done, IANTOO. In this instance, it is wise and reasonable for you to not pay to further her affair, and since she refuses to stop and she requisitioned/requested the repairs, it's her job to pay for them. 

I have to admit, I hope she comes to her senses soon. Maybe being sick and having no one take care of her will be another nail in the affair's coffin...as will having to pay her own bill and OM not "rescuing" her. 

Patience. Oh and btw...happy birthday early!


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thanks


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## iamnottheonlyone

I worked the concession stand with my wife tonight. She gabbered alot. She just kept talkin about all sorts of stuff. When she left, I forgot to give her mail, so I called her to remind her. She jabbered on again. I kissed her on the cheek and she didn't run away.
One of the kids who I coached in little league dropped by the concession stand. He was on of my favorites. My wife liked him alot too. I took a picture of the two of them together. He asked her if we still lived in the same place. She told him yes. It probably was the right thing to tell the kid as he admires the both of us. He asked this in front of a number of people who know are situation. My wife is working over the weekend. She told me she is flying over the weekend. She will not be around for my birthday. One of my neighbors texted me when I got home. She is a very nice never-married. She asked if she could take me out for a B-day drink. I accepted


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## iamnottheonlyone

I texted my wife this morning that I want to take her to dinner on our anniversary Oct 7 (20 years). Wait and see. I expect a no.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My son and I are heading over to get her car for himwhile she travels. She never got my message. She called him from someoneelse's cell as she left her phone in her car. So much for that.


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## Katoxox

wow , I never heard of that type of intervention, I do not know how outing her exposing her to her family and friends would help you save the marriage. If that were done to me i would hate you and keep in mind sometimes people dont leave their marriage for the simple fact that they fear telling family memebers of their decison for fear of being judged. This could backfire on you once you out her she may say good now everyone knows so no more hiding and just move on with her BF
after her all you do you think she is going to go to to discuss your betrayal and how she feels


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## Tanelornpete

Katoxox said:


> wow , I never heard of that type of intervention, I do not know how outing her exposing her to her family and friends would help you save the marriage. If that were done to me i would hate you and keep in mind sometimes people dont leave their marriage for the simple fact that they fear telling family memebers of their decison for fear of being judged. This could backfire on you once you out her she may say good now everyone knows so no more hiding and just move on with her BF
> after her all you do you think she is going to go to to discuss your betrayal and how she feels


What intervention are you speaking of?

Incidentally, you completely miss the point, and the outcome of exposure. Might want to investigate it a bit more - it is a standard tool used in fighting infidelity that is extremely effective. Of COURSE it would make you angry. That 's pretty much self evident. A marriage can survive that anger - it cannot survive an affair. 

And yes, she might say 'good - now its in the open - and even move on with her BF.' Would like to point out that hiding the affair from all the people to whom she is lying is also enabling the affair. In many cases, we COUNT on pushing the affair partners together - very little is more effective in ending the affair than having the light of day shone on what appeared to be a magical relationship. All of the sudden the partners will begin to see things that were...overlooked...before. 

While the affair is hidden, it is magic. It is fantasy: both partners revise reality so that the affair is perfect, the marriage is evil. Upon exposure, all of the sudden, the people to whom you were lying begin to look at you with a different perspective - if they speak to you at all. Life changes immensely.

That's what we count on when we expose the lies.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thanks T. I couldn't have said it better myself. Nice hearing from you. I am holding on. Plan A all the way.


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## Affaircare

You know what I noticed, IAM? I haven't responded on here very much. So I wanted you to know that I am still following along and reading your posts, and I know that your birthday is this weekend and your 20th anniversary is coming up. I see that you are in a pretty good place personally, mentally and emotionally. I see that there is not definitive movement one way or the other right this second. 

I also see that your wife was sick and no one was there to take care of her. I see that your wife had $10k of jewelry on her fingers and now wears a small "promise ring." I see that she has a car bill and no one is taking care of it for her like you used to. I see that she has to try really hard to have any kind of relationship with her own son. I see that she has to cover up her actions in front of others. 

I see the bloom is fading off the rose, and I know for a fact she sees it too. The question it's going to come down to is this: does she have the courage to admit she was wrong? I've seen people throw away a GREAT life because they were too proud to admit they were wrong and go back to it. 

So I'm following along and praying that one day soon she'll have that courage.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Selfishness seems to rule in affairs. But I think a lack of courage also plays a role. When she was having problems with our relationship she didn't speak up. Those friends of ours who would speak up about their spouses behavior were relationships I use to question and we would talk about. But those people talked about their disagreements. Often in public. We never said a bad word in public about each other and we never made arguments personal between us. Maybe I should have. As you know, it was only the 2 weeks before I found out did she become bold, mean and "courageous". 
I am giving her every reason to believe that she would not be treated badly if she returned.
Yesterday my son said he expects her to "recognize" my birthday but to "disregard" our 20th. She is still doing her thing.
I have been wearing my wedding ring. After my 20th if ther is no recognition, I am taking it off. Maybe she will notice that. I know that the single woman I know will notice it in a second. My son thinks I should start on relationships with other women. I am in neutral territory. Maybe if I do that it will stir the pot.


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## LuvMyH

It might stir the pot, but if you pursue relationships with other women before you are divorced, you risk hurting an innocent bystander. Also, if you're still married, you'll be committing adultery.

Always end one relationship before starting another. Nothing good ever seems to come from trying to do it the other way around. Evidence of that is all over this forum.

Keep your chin up and stay on the high road. I think in the end you'll feel better about yourself for it.

Besides, even if you divorce, if you wait until it's final to date, you'll have a much greater selection of women to choose from. So many won't date someone who's still married, that you'll just handicap yourself right off the bat. Make sense?

Best wishes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Do Not Do It. I did about 5 weeks ago, and have just further complicated my situation. Nothing but fairly innocent coffee dates and texts, but I am developing feelings. H and I agreed to decide one way or another by the end of this month. Other guy knows where I stand, but I still do not like this. Just got too lonely, but I regret it.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I went to a friend's 50th B-day party tonight. I brought a good female friend of mine as my "date". It turned out she knew more people there then I did. She was a great companion. (She made brownies for me as a B-day gift.) The B-day girl took me aside at one point and told me she felt that my W was always immature. She had more to say but it was her B-day and I said we should not be dealing with my business at her party. She is a good friend. (Divorced due to her H's infidelity.)
I just checked my messages. W called wishing me a happy B-day. She said, "I just wanted you to Know that I've been thinking of you." Hmmm? A small dent?


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## carlosaugustine

I realize I'm coming into this conversation late because I am a new member. So, I hope I didn't miss anything that was stated previously. But, your story tugged at me because I went through the same thing about 17 years ago. I was the cheater, but don't hold that against me, please.

First, I'm sorry to hear you are going through the difficulty of a spousal affair. And, it's heartbreaking to see that you are considering a divorce, but given the circumstances, I don't see that you have very many options. 

Before you begin any relationship with another woman, you might consider serving your wife with divorce papers. You can state the reason for divorce as abandonment and adultery. Adultery is still illegal in most states, so for your wife to persist in this behavior shows her utter disregard for the law and your family.

More importantly, you have a child. Your wife's long-term infidelity does not bode very well for her in court because it has detrimental effects on your child (at least studies show that).

So, get your ducks in a row. Get an attorney that is willing to nail her squarely against the wall. You need evidence of her long-term abandoning of the household. Serving her with papers will force her to hire an attorney, at which point, she will be advised that custody may be in danger and money will be flying right out the door. With the right kind of evidence, it will not take long for her to figure out she is on the short end of a long stick.

Then, once she knows what is likely to happen, you need to be firm and explain that you will not go forward with the divorce as long as she ends any and all affairs. 

If that does not put a stop to her infidelities, then you unfortunately will need to go forward and get divorced. You cannot continue to live a lie as if it is okay for your own sanity and for the proper upbringing of your child. Make sure you do everything to maintain custody and as much money as possible, preferably the home also. 

Best wishes,
Carlos


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## iamnottheonlyone

It is five months and 20th anniversary is 4 days away. Should I keep going? Is the affair in trouble? I could read tea leaves or ...
She left her cell phone in the car when let my son use it. I finally decided to take a look. I sure doesn't look like there is any trouble in fantasy land. Mushy, mushy talk just the last few days. Talk of sex, sex, sex. A little porn video (I didn't watch it.) About as fantasy as you could get. I can say it sure looks like they aren't bored. No limits about what they say (or do!) I remember reading a thread from someone where they set up a video in a hotel room. They talk like they are rabbits!!


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## iamnottheonlyone

I have known that the phone was in the car for the last two days. If I had looked in the phone a year ago maybe I wouldn't be where I am today. 
I wrote the last post right after I came in from the car and then I had to run off and bring it to the lot with my son. So I have a little more to share.
Seems he is off to training for atleast a few days. She mentioned that they have to get through the next few weeks. Her texts were more romance then sex. His texts were more sex then romance. An example:
He was sitting in class compalining about his instructor and thinking about her sitting in a particular place. She responded with, "I love you madly, passionately and completely."
There was some banter. The kind of things that keep things light. "I should have hid your clothes so that you would have to go to work naked." I think that is the kind of healthy humor that is good for a relationship. You might note that over the past couple of weeks I have been advising others to toss in the humor and try to make things fun. 
While I was sitting at the lot waiting for my son to park W's car I read a email message from Mort (the counsellor). It was about sharing humor with your spouse. Good timing. I sent her a text (which she won't get until tonight) joking about her current trip and the things she complains about when she does it.
A few years back she took me to Vegas for my B-day. I will text her tomorrow with some commentary about what happens in Vegas ought to be remembered and done at home. 
I am in a good place right now. The reading of the text is not bothering me as you seasoned vets out there prepared me for this. As long as the affair is moving along in fantasy land there is nothing I can do but hunker down. 
Still, she was thinking of me. Maybe she is getting a little tired of his sex play and remembering that I'm not all that bad?


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## Blue Moon

iamnottheonlyone said:


> It is five months and 20th anniversary is 4 days away. Should I keep going? Is the affair in trouble? I could read tea leaves or ...
> She left her cell phone in the car when let my son use it. I finally decided to take a look. I sure doesn't look like there is any trouble in fantasy land. Mushy, mushy talk just the last few days. Talk of sex, sex, sex. A little porn video (I didn't watch it.) About as fantasy as you could get. I can say it sure looks like they aren't bored. No limits about what they say (or do!) I remember reading a thread from someone where they set up a video in a hotel room. They talk like they are rabbits!!


That's because she's happy with him. He is her reality, not fantasy. You're doing yourself an injustice by trying to pick up little signs that she's taking steps toward coming back. Instead of looking at her glowing and wearing nice outfits as something she's doing for your benefit, you need to be honest with yourself and realize it's for another man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I'm confused. She's bantering with him, but she's getting tired of it? Why do you think she thinks you're not all that bad? What did I miss?


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## turnera

What is your cutoff date?


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## jar

IAM

Keep up the good work and the patients.

It probably would have been better if you did not look at your wife’s cell phone. You needed some validation of what was going on in Affair land but reading that stuff is just going to drive you nuts and hurt your feelings.

When I was home I could have dug through wife’s laptop it took everything I had not to snoop. I didn’t because in the past when I have found things it breaks my heart and devastate me for days on end.

You know your post about admitting that she has been wrong. Really made me think a lot. I know for my wife she has admitted she was wrong to me all of 5 times in past years. In my situation I wonder if she can admit this to her self.

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

It isn't hurting and I'm not surprised at what I read. That doesn't change my approach. I think he's crude. He's a bad boy. I think she finds that attractive right now. 
My original drop dead-Plan B date was my anniversary. I moved that out to next summer/graduation for my son. My interests became more practical. I don't want to have to deal with the divorce until then. I don't want to sell the house. I don't want to deal with health insurance.
I talked to my friend S for awhile this afternoon. I know she loves her boyfriend. That has been a given since day 1 on this site. You aren't telling me anything I don't know. Her reality is fantasy. And she could continue to live in that fantasy land forever if she gets really lucky. But hardly anyone ever does. He gets bored, she dets bored. What else do they have in common.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I had a little drama today. Maybe I'm getting a little paranoid. W had told OM that things would be "better in a few weeks." W and OM seemed to be on different schedules so would not see each other much. (Darn) Then it crossed my mind that maybe they are talking about me and maybe she is filing. Then I recalled OM's first wife died. Was there an insurance policy? Gut feeling was bothering me. I disregarded strange thoughts of evil deads.
Then this morning my W texts me asking me for my Social Security number to deal with benefits enrollment. Now I'm starting to panic. What is she doing? Doesn't the company have my SS#? Is she adding more life insurance on me? After some research and a talk with a couple of friends I called her. She explained our insurance had a class action settlement claim due today. Okay. Sounds plausible. I'm chillin'.
I asked her to go to dinner with me for our anniversary. She hem and hawed and finally said she was way too busy. No out right no. So I'm not getting her a gift. Just sending a card.
W didn't even give my son money to buy me gift although he gave me a card. Twenty-two years together and not even a card on my birhtday. I did mention this to my son.
Oh well. I am not totally ticked off. I am not angry. The affair fog makes her a total loser.
A friend of mine was on one of her flights back from Paris and asked her if she would see W up at the ski area this winter. Her response was she is never going there again and she is very happy with her life. So be it. She has abandoned all those friends. It is just hard to imagine how crazy an affair can make someone. I never would have dreamed she would throw away her life like this.


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## Affaircare

I wrote on land's thread that I have thought of the absolutely PERFECT gift for a birthday or anniversary. Go back to your wedding day, find a copy of your vows, and hand write them out as you said them on your wedding day. Take your time and write them as pretty as you can--using fancy stationery, a fancy pen and your very best hand writing. Then buy a larger size, fancy invitation envelope and include the beautiful vows and a little note that says, "I still mean them just as much today as I did on the day we said them to each other. Happy Birthday/Anniversary my love." 

<----I love me. 

***************
P.S. That whole thing with the life insurance does sound a little creepy. I'm not sure it's not paranoia, but is there some way you could change your beneficiary to your son maybe? I mean, if she's divorcing you, she's voluntarily throwing away your assets and that includes life insurance beneficiary. PLUS if you were to suddenly die, you do want it to go to supporting him (not her). 

Sooooo...just a thought...


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## cmf

IANTOO-FYI.. I changed my beneficiary to my sons about 7 months ago to be safe.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Good advice and I will take it. Thanks you two.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

In some states, you cannot take a spouse off of being the primary beneficiary until you are divorced. Might want to check with your plan.


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## Affaircare

Neverwouldhave guessed said:


> In some states, you cannot take a spouse off of being the primary beneficiary until you are divorced. Might want to check with your plan.



Ummm...:scratchhead: what? 

I think what you mean is that once divorce has been filed that sometimes in the temporary orders it will identify that there can be no changes to the life insurance policy until the divorce is final (basically, there's a "hold" put on all assets and debts--no one is supposed to buy, sell, or change any asset or run up joint debt). But in this instance, there are no legal papers filed whatsoever, and by the law they are not even legally separated. 

If I'm not mistaken, when there is a divorce issue about life insurance, it's usually something like "he takes out a life insurance policy naming child as beneficiary so in case he dies, child is covered" or "he takes out life insurance for the duration of alimony naming her as beneficiary to ensure alimony payments," ... that kind of thing. So if they are absolutely still married, there is no legal separation or divorce filed, and IANTOO were to name his son, I believe he's just a person changing his beneficiary and that's obviously legal. And yes, it's always best to check.


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## notreadytoquit

When things got sour after I disclosed my husbands affair in the open I changed the beneficiary to my life insurance policy to my son and I put my sister as trustee. So in case something happens to me my sister will manage that money until son is of age of majority. At that point there was nothing filed.

AC is right up until the time when something is filed I think you can change the beneficiary to any policy like that.


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## notreadytoquit

We are now divorced and he was obligated to get additional life insurance policy to cover for my alimony and child support. Of course he waited until the day before our final hearing to do that. My lawyer also insisted that I have access to verify that information on the policy(not change but just verify) and make sure the policy is in place and not cancelled.


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## Blue Moon

You followed your plan and the cutoff date has come. Why not move on now? Don't continue to be her lap dog. If you truly believe in the plan then you should follow through with it, even the parts that don't mean a happy ending. Every possible indication points to her being done with the marriage. You fought the good fight. Go get your life back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

What was the cutoff date?


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## iamnottheonlyone

My original date I picked 4 months ago was tomorrow, our 20th anniversary. Then I decided that I would try for the end of her lease on her new place, June 30, 2011. But I can't make it without medication. I am unwilling to take a crutch of any kind. I just can't make it to July never mind November.
I took down pictures of us today. The wedding pictures, which have been over the fireplace, came down this morning. My wedding band came off this past weekend. I haven't touched the family photos, but I think that I should to clear my mind. I will think a little more. But tomorrow I think I will remove all signs of her. 
She still has all her fall and winter clothes in the house. She has not mentioned getting any of these things. 
So now I think I will continue with the good behavior even though I am mentally and emotionally moving on. To some degree, I may have been taunting her with my kindness and charm the last couple of weeks. I am not feeling the love but I am showing it and saying it. People comment to me at my son's games how well the two of us get along. It is only me who makes it look that way. 
As to the OM there is no way he can match up against me in any category. So I am not going publicly into Plan B, but in my head that is where I'm at. He's a bad boy and his true colors will show at some time. I will likely not be around when that day happens and accepting that.


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## cmf

IANTOO- I am beginning to realize my H liked us getting along so well in public because he could continue the deception to others- no one was hurt , there was nothing going on, no reason to feel any guilt. He is now saying he will do the no contact, transparency , but not commit to rebuilding the marriage. I take that as he wants a place to stay, access to his kids whenever he wants and the appearance that he is still the good guy to others. Of course he still denies anything. Until I am completely ready for No Contact/Plan B , I am basically stating the same thing to him over and over- as far as what it would take for him to return. I'm getting a lot of "Even if I do all this, you'll just come up with something else".
I'm sorry your situation has come to this, you have really stayed so positive and patient with her all this time. She will truly regret losing you one day. And it does help removing all their stuff and pictures in the home, I did it in March. I remember the pain you are going through all too well. This has not been a good month for a lot of us so far.


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## turnera

If I were you, I would pack up her fall/winter clothes in boxes, add the pictures, and email her that they will be in the driveway until Friday, when Purple Heart is coming by. 

I see nothing wrong with letting her see how much she is hurting you. And letting her see you're moving on. It might be the wakeup call you need.


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## Tanelornpete

> I'm getting a lot of "Even if I do all this, you'll just come up with something else".


CMF - The correct response to this is 'these are my three conditions...A, B, and C.' He is trying to get you to change them. (Yeah, I know, wrong thread - but still applies - consistency gets results.)


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## iamnottheonlyone

I texted W this morning with a happy anniversary message. I called her phone and sang our wedding song to her voice mail. (Am I taunting?) I took down every picture of her I had left hanging (a dozen or so.) Time to not wait for her any longer.


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## Blue Moon

Good
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Good that you're setting her free. Now you are free, and can choose her...or not.


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## i_feel_broken

I think it's the right time. I took all photos down and boxed up her stuff. It helped not to have a constant reminder. after 4 weeks of truly concentrating on myself I started to realise I was becoming the old me again. I was socialising , playing football, golf, going to gym, spending qt with my son. I actually started to look forward to nights alone with a film! I enjoyed having my own space and rules again. It may be different for you I realise that but one thing I have realised is that I gave too much of myself away for her... It wasn't appealing or healthy and it won't happen again.

You have been through all the hardest parts... the panic.. trickle truth etc etc. I think you will find yourself on the road to recovery sooner than you think and even if you are not intending her to your wife will see that and I believe that will effect her more than chasing her. She knows how you feel now and has not acted. Plan B her!


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## cmf

I'm sorry it's come to this . Several on here are in the same boat today ( including me). I am thinking about you and hope you take care of yourself on this difficult day.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> My original date I picked 4 months ago was tomorrow, our 20th anniversary. Then I decided that I would try for the end of her lease on her new place, June 30, 2011. But I can't make it without medication. I am unwilling to take a crutch of any kind. I just can't make it to July never mind November.


Here's the fact, IANTOO. On D-Day (discovery day) you had the moral right to divorce her with no guilt in pretty much every ethical code I know of--adultery is "wrong." But I admire that you hung in there at all and made the attempt to give her time to come out of it. You know as well as I do that she has lost a LOT, and I can't imagine that she won't, some day, recognize what she walked away from (no matter how stubborn she is). 

I also know that Plan A/Carrot & Stick is HARD and emotionally exhausting. No one can keep it up indefinitely, and this is a fitting "end date." I have to admit I do not disagree with your decision or the timing. 

However, I do have one request. As you know, there are a few things to prepare in order to do an effective Plan B/Consequences, and I have no doubt whatsoever that today (and tonight) are going to have an emotional impact on you. I would request that you make the official move to Plan B/No Contact in a day or two, when your head is clear and it is a conscientious decision rather than an emotional response. This would be a decision that could impact you, your life, your son, and your marriage for literally the rest of your life, so do it soberly and with a clear mind. Know what I mean? 



> I took down pictures of us today. The wedding pictures, which have been over the fireplace, came down this morning. My wedding band came off this past weekend. I haven't touched the family photos, but I think that I should to clear my mind. I will think a little more. But tomorrow I think I will remove all signs of her. She still has all her fall and winter clothes in the house. She has not mentioned getting any of these things.


Housecleaning...in fall.  I think this is a fine idea and a good way to prepare for No Contact/Consequences. Pack the photos away and deal with them another day. For her clothes I have two ideas: 1) she is not on the deed or mortgage for the house, so change the locks, pack her clothing and anything else she could possibly claim is hers, put it in the garage and notify her that she has 2 weeks or it will go to charity. -OR- 2) pack her clothing and anything else she could possibly claim is hers, rent a storage unit for one month, and mail her the key with a note "Placed your property in storage for one month, unit 123" 

Either way, she is no longer allowed in your home, and she has a way to get her property, and she has a deadline. All three are very reasonable consequences to her choices.



> So now I think I will continue with the good behavior even though I am mentally and emotionally moving on. To some degree, I may have been taunting her with my kindness and charm the last couple of weeks. I am not feeling the love but I am showing it and saying it. People comment to me at my son's games how well the two of us get along. It is only me who makes it look that way.


I see no reason for you to discontinue being civil--any human being deserves that respect right? But I see no reason for you to continue with kindness or charm. I would suggest that you ask if you can trade shifts for your son's games (like you'll work Wednesdays now rather than the night she'd work) and just skip her. 



> As to the OM there is no way he can match up against me in any category. So I am not going publicly into Plan B, but in my head that is where I'm at. He's a bad boy and his true colors will show at some time. I will likely not be around when that day happens and accepting that.


I think you should go into Plan B/No Contact, and I see no reason to only do it "privately." She is the one who made the choice to leave, and she is the one who made the choice to continue it when you made it clear you would forgive. So end contact publicly--politely but publicly. I think the next step is writing the Plan B/Consequences Letter and making preparations.


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## iamnottheonlyone

New locks will go on tomorrow morning. I will think about the storage. She'll be coming for her stuff soon. I don't want her in the house. All this is so different then how I behave. I am generous and kind. I live to stand on the high moral ground and do the right thing. This is killing me.


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## Affaircare

I want to reassure you of something. Allowing someone to experience the consequences of their choices is the most loving, respectful thing you can do for them--especially if they are an adult. You are saying by your actions that you respect her enough to allow her to deal with the results of her own actions! You also are saying that you love her enough to LET HER learn the life lessons she needs to learn, and not shield her from maturing because "it's hard." 

In a way, it's a little like someone who's the parent of a drug addict. You still see your child in there! You still see the little boy or girl whom you dearly love, and you know that person is in there but covered by the drug. And for the best interest of your child you have to let them hurt--a lot--while they go through withdrawal and while they ask and ask and ask you to make it stop hurting. You have to "be mean" and not give them their drug. You have to take things away from them so they understand what doing the drug costs them. You have to DO THE RIGHT THING for the child's sake, and you walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death to save them. 

The fact is, IANTOO, that people often grow and mature through suffering and pain. As her husband, you are loving her to treat her like this--like she's an adult and responsible for her choices. I do know it's killing you, but remind yourself that you are doing the right thing and have been on the high moral ground. Stay on the high moral ground now as you move from Plan A/Carrot & Stick to Plan B/Consequences. 

AND...you're not alone. I'm sure it feels like you are, but you're not. You know CMF is right there with ya (in spirit) and Land and JAR know your anguish. It's time.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Every difficult/painful step I took during my separation was good in the long run. I felt I took MY power back, was in better control of my 1/2 of the relationship, and sent a message that, should we reconcile, this adultery thing could never happen again. He very much dislikes having to ring the doorbell, write a monthly check, be separated from his kids, and (for a time) seeing his clothes in the garage. 

Show her that you are NOT a doormat, but willing to be a marriage partner under certain, reasonable circumstances. AC is spot on. You can do this......


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## iamnottheonlyone

I'm not ready to quit. I just have to maintain my balance. I wouldn't date to make my wife want me.
The concern I have now is for my son. I have explained what I am doing and why I am doing it. I am not giving up on his mom despite the fact that she has given up on me. I suggested that he go through the picture and decide which ones he would like in his room. His response was that he had no where to put them. We have some great family shots. All the pictures are great memories.
I was talking to one of my female friends tonight about getting together to do something, lunch or a drink after work. Our schedule are very incompatible. I said I could probably meet her for lunch at the end of next week. She said she was free every day from midnight to 8 am. Oh boy... Way too soon for that!


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## Tanelornpete

> I was talking to one of my female friends tonight about getting together to do something, lunch or a drink after work. Our schedule are very incompatible. I said I could probably meet her for lunch at the end of next week. She said she was free every day from midnight to 8 am. Oh boy... Way too soon for that!


Avoid that like you avoid ironing your face. 

1) You are still married. 
2) Rebound relationships stop all personal growth - can even reverse it. 
3) You are still married.
4) You are too vulnerable to make a good rational decision right now regarding a relationship.
5) You are married.
6) Your marriage is in danger because of the intrusion of another person. Any action right now that involves entering another person into your marriage will have the exact effect of ending any possibility of recovery - no matter how remote that possibility might be.
7) You are married.


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## Affaircare

LOL :lol: I am sensing a theme there honey--my psychic abilities are kicking in.... 

Okay on the one hand, it's a little flattering, isn't it, to know that people would at least hit on you? This is my personal opinion only--talking to female friends is flirting with disaster until the ink is dry--but tuck it into the back of your head that at least you know you'll be attractive if you choose to go that route some day. Also remember that a woman who will flirt with you while you're married (even if you are separated) is also a woman who doesn't honor that 100% of a married person's affection and loyalty is to their spouse ONLY. If she has the character to do that, she probably has the character to justify being unfaithful and we don't want that again, do we?


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## iamnottheonlyone

Yeah. No kidding. I just saw a similar occurance with a friend of mine who is recently divorced. Her husband had an affair leading to their divorce then she started a relationship who just left his wife (for her?) I just could not believe that.
My son was upset with the events of the day. The pictures gone. The suggestion that he could put some in his room. I told him I was going to change the locks today. That wastoo much for him. He locked up on me. I am not going to hurt him. I am not changing the locks today or packing her clothes. She can do that. She can be the person leaving me and my son. I won't be the guy pushing her out.


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## turnera

Oh, I'm so sorry. I know that has to be killing you, seeing your son suffer. Remind me: has he gone to therapy? I don't want him to become an 'angry young man.'

Could you ask him to write her a letter? It would help him, I think.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> ...My son was upset with the events of the day. The pictures gone. The suggestion that he could put some in his room. I told him I was going to change the locks today. That wastoo much for him. He locked up on me. I am not going to hurt him. I am not changing the locks today or packing her clothes. She can do that. She can be the person leaving me and my son. I won't be the guy pushing her out.


I think it is compassionate of you to recognize his hurt and adjust to accommodate him, and I even agree that "She can be the person leaving me and my son. I won't be the guy pushing her out" is the right frame of mind. 

The issue is this, though: in her entitled point of view, she has left but feels completely free to walk into your home any time she wants whether you are home or not. She also feels free to take anything she decides "is hers" and does not see a need to get your permission or agreement first. That *IS* a legal issue, and it is reasonable for you to address that issue. 

Thus, as a way to both address the issue and be considerate of your son, can you change the garage door code or add a bolt lock or something just to secure the property? And regarding her items and having HER pack her own things, I think that is a great idea--let HER do the work! What if you contacted her to indicate "I notice your fall and winter clothing is still here and want to arrange a time for you to come and pack them so I can be here. I would prefer to be here when you are in the home."

Finally, just as you are beginning to adjust and come to accept the fact that she just may actually be gone, in a similar way your son is also adjusting to that. The fact of the matter is that his own mother chose to leave him so she could get her jollies, and it is a statement of fact that that has GOT to hurt him. I think part of your job may be to not only be compassionate and accommodating, but also to help him figure out how he is going to deal with the pain of reality--that his mom may be gone.


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## iamnottheonlyone

At some point she is going to have to get her clothes. (Unless she comes home. lol) She was at the game last night and said nothing about what I did for our anniversay. She acted like we were best friends. She should be in Hollywood. 
I received a call from a friend who knows a flight attendant that works with OM. My friend said she was told OM is a player. That he is not well liked. That he regularly hits on other flight attendants. He "broke the heart" of the flight attendant he was seeing before my W. This woman said she does not see what my W sees in this man. She described him as a loser. Isn't this a scenario played out quite frequently?


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## land2634

I think that hits the nail right on the head. I know at least in my case, the OM preys on relationships that are hurting. There is a literally a timeline in place as to where he has jumped from person to person to person, and people around the situation seem to notice it. My wife used to comment that he was a "creeper" and that he weirded her out. Suddenly one day, a switch flipped.



iamnottheonlyone said:


> At some point she is going to have to get her clothes. (Unless she comes home. lol) She was at the game last night and said nothing about what I did for our anniversay. She acted like we were best friends. She should be in Hollywood.
> I received a call from a friend who knows a flight attendant that works with OM. My friend said she was told OM is a player. That he is not well liked. That he regularly hits on other flight attendants. He "broke the heart" of the flight attendant he was seeing before my W. This woman said she does not see what my W sees in this man. She described him as a loser. Isn't this a scenario played out quite frequently?


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## iamnottheonlyone

I sent a text to my wife last night:"Yes, I still love you. Yup."
No reply expected despite the things I did for our anniversary last week. She treated me like a good friend last Friday at my son's game. She had to leave early to go to work. I gave her the paly by play over the phone.
I went on a couple innocent dates over the weekend. I feel like I have more concern for these women then I do for my wife. My feelings for her are the same. However, we have such little contact that there is no conflict.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I sent out an update to football families yesterday with a request for some snacks for the players after Friday's game. My wife emailed back that she would take care of it. I responded that we should let another family take care of it if they stepped up. Otherwise we could share the cost. I added that I would like to know what she expected this weekend in regards to our son. I asked her what night she would want him. She only responded to the snack issue. Typical. Does this empower her? For 6 months she hasn't shared her schedule with me. As I am dating (I don't think she knows this) it makes it difficult for me to plan. However, I would just as soon have my son all to myself.
Physically I am great. I have my appetite back completely. Confidence is restored. I rarely think of her. I do contact her every couple of days just to stay on her radar. I have no anxiety or fear. 
My only concern is pulling back on expenses. Now we have two incomes and two households. Things will get tight by next spring.


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## lobokies

just focus on your child and yourself. not to think of her anymore.


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## turnera

Why don't you just plan on having your son all weekend? If she wants him, she has to contact YOU.


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## Blue Moon

lobokies said:


> just focus on your child and yourself. not to think of her anymore.


I agree. Let her live with her decision and let it play out however it is going to play out. I believe you when you say you're doing better and aren't a wreck anymore, but she's still occupying too much of your time and energy.

Sending "I love you" texts and unnecessary e-mails (Splitting the cost of drinks/snacks that can't cost more than $10-20. No need to go half on this especially since it's for her own son), or wanting to know her schedule (Your son is a teenager, I'm sure he doesn't require a sitter) come off as desperate attempts to get back "in there".

You don't have to be cold, but keep all communications with her to the point and about your son. She ignores these extra communications because they're turn offs for her and come off as lap doggish, especially considering how much time has gone by and you're not "taking a hint".

Just be the best dad you can be to your son. If down the road things fall apart and you want to get back with her (I wouldn't, but to each his own) then so be it. But there's really no need to analyze her moves.


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## iamnottheonlyone

She got back to me this afternoon. She didn't commit to anything.


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## lobokies

never allow her to control your roller coaster.
i suggest that you be firm on yourself. i bet if she is still a human, she will regret all of her fault in the future. but you mus not think that she will regret, just consider that she has turned to be someone that you never know.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I had an interesting experience last night on my date. My date has been divorced for one year . She caught her husband cheating on her three years ago and it continued. He found out thru their kids that she was "finally" dating someone. He showed up at her job with flowers yesterday. She was upset with this sort of manipulation. He could have dropped them off at the house if it was just a friendly festure. He then showed up at the house before she went out last night to "just take (his) son out to dinner" which never happens. She says he has said he wants to get back together but has made no effort to change himself. She, on the otherhand, has grown thru the experience of infidelity. I found this to incident to be demonstrative of the WS's foggy thinking. My date and I talked openly about the going back process for both of us.


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## AFEH

I think it part of the male psychology that we like a “challenge”. Wife/woman doesn’t want us or shows little interest but we think something’s there for us, then we’re “up for the challenge”. The chase is on so to speak.

Same with a man who’s chased by a woman. They make it way to easy to the point where there’s no challenge there. And sometimes we may even wonder what the heck’s wrong with the woman. In my courting days when out with mates when I just wasn’t interested, just sat there laid back while they were trying to pull I often got surprised when one of the women would take my arm as we were leaving. My mates as far as they were concerned had done all the “work” while I got the bounty. Sometimes it really messed them off. But what was I supposed to do?

This psychology side of courting and male/female relationships is why I think men go wrong when trying to get their wife back by “fawning” or being “lovey dovey” when their wives are having an affair. Sometimes I think these men demonstrate an eagerness and neediness that is way over the top and is no way going to get their woman back.

Bob


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## notreadytoquit

Isn't it always you want what you can't have?


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## notreadytoquit

iamnottheonlyone said:


> I had an interesting experience last night on my date. My date has been divorced for one year . She caught her husband cheating on her three years ago and it continued. He found out thru their kids that she was "finally" dating someone. He showed up at her job with flowers yesterday. She was upset with this sort of manipulation. He could have dropped them off at the house if it was just a friendly festure. He then showed up at the house before she went out last night to "just take (his) son out to dinner" which never happens. She says he has said he wants to get back together but has made no effort to change himself. She, on the otherhand, has grown thru the experience of infidelity. I found this to incident to be demonstrative of the WS's foggy thinking. My date and I talked openly about the going back process for both of us.


I know you are still not divorced but maybe your son should drop a hint to your wife that women are interested in you. Good for you for enjoying your life despite what she has put you through :smthumbup:


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## lobokies

aha .... a date

i am enjoying your post about dating. please update us the progress of your new date


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## turnera

notreadytoquit said:


> I know you are still not divorced but maybe your son should drop a hint to your wife that women are interested in you.


 Oh, heck yeah!


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## iamnottheonlyone

Maybe a couple dates this weekend. I will update you all of my status.
I exchanged a few messages with my wife today about college visits. Since she left when she mentions my son in an email or text she uses his initials. She never did that before. His initials are the same as a daughter of good friends. Everyone has called her by her initials since she was very young. Her dad cheated on her mom a couple years ago and they where in the process of divorce when mom died of a brain tumor. So the fact that my wife uses these initials now is toublesome to say the least. I have never addressed with her but it is starting to grate at me. I think it is another psych issue for her.


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## notreadytoquit

Don't sweat over that too much. She is probably not even realizing that. Concentrate on the more important issues.


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## turnera

Actually, if you look into psychology, you'll see that people who are in stress will dissociate themselves from 'normal' by doing things exactly like this - using initials instead of his real name, because she has to be a 'different' person right now and her subconscious bothers her when she tries to merge the two lives together. If you catch her using his name again, she just might be coming out of the fog. The same way a liar telling a fib will use full words instead of contractions. "I did NOT have...with that woman."


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> Oh, heck yeah!


Hints never work on a man.


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## turnera

I beg to differ. I advised a woman once to have some place to go when her WH came by to pick up the kids, instead of just staying at home. Even if she's just going to the library - as he was coming to get the kids, she was also getting in her car and leaving (and not telling him where she was going), and asking when she needed to be home for him to drop the kids off.

You wouldn't believe how fast he decided he was better off at home than with OW. 

Not all cases happen that way, of course, but wanting what you can't have (i.e. wifee no longer sitting at home crying over you, but having her own life) can be a VERY powerful motivator.


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## cmf

I wanted to respond to Tunera's post. I find what you wrote about in regards to using initials very interesting as my husband for the past year has only used his initials too. I thought it was weird but never thought too much about it.Interesting...


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## iamnottheonlyone

I would like to hear more about this name change issue from anyone who has seen this before. Should I say something to W? She I suggest she call our son by his true name?


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## notreadytoquit

I would just ask her why she started doing that next time you see her. Don't make that a reason to call her or to text her. If I were you I would like to see the expression on her face.


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## jar

Wow

This is interesting. Wife will use just the first initial of her name my name the OM name the and the dogs name. Wife had mentioned when she use to chat on line with OM I was referred to as J and OM ex g/f was referred to as S.

This is very interesting.

JAR


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## iamnottheonlyone

I met my wife at my son's game tonight. (They lost.) We were friendly. I joked around and was social and fun with everyone, as I usually am. We did our thing and I acted like we were married (to spite her?) It is Plan A isn't it. I offerd to buy her a drink and snack and she accepted. Otherwise, no change. 
Over the past six months I have treated her very nice. No love busters. But with so little contact, it is hard for me to mess up. I have dates both Saturday and Sunday.


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## Affaircare

IAM~

I've been thinking all day about how to say this, and I believe straight up is going to be the best route. I respect you too much to give you anything but complete honesty, so I'm going to say right out loud that I disagree with you dating right now, as it stands. Here's why. 

If your goal is to reconcile your marriage and honor your marriage vows, then going out with another woman not only does not lead in that direction, it leads in the direction of you joining your wife in cheating. Thus if you want to reconcile your marriage, I'd encourage you to continue through the 7 Steps and not deviate to other women. If you date another, even casually, and by some miracle tonight your wife breaks up with OM--you will be in a pickle and some foggy thinking will be rolling in on YOU about your wife. 

If your goal is "I'd like to reconcile but my wife doesn't show signs of interest and I'm about at my breaking point" I would encourage you to go to complete Plan B/No Contact like CMF and keep the focus on yourself, counseling for your son maybe, and either mixed support groups or guy friends. That way you protect what little, if any, love you have for your wife and you begin to free yourself from the affair drama, dizzy talk, etc. to live in peace. 

If your goal is that you've had enough, I'll be honest--you've had that right since day 1. I would suggest filing for divorce on the grounds of adultery and protecting your best interests and the interests of your son. It's her choice; she's had plenty of time to do the right thing and consistently chosen not to end it. So if you're done, that's cool be done. 

But wait to date until the ink is on the divorce papers. You do yourself, your marriage, AND THE WOMEN YOU DATE a disservice to offer yourself when you are not free to be offered. Look you're a man of the world, and from what I can tell you're the kind of man who won't have trouble attracting other women. So I don't think that's the issue here. The issue is this: What KIND of man are you--to yourself--privately? Are you the kind of man with the integrity to be 100% faithful? Then be faithful. Are you the kind of man who honors his promises? Then honor your promises. And if the promises are broken, do the legal untying of the promises before you move on. THEN you'll be available to offer yourself to someone and take the risk that either you or the lovely person you're with will fall for you, have feelings for you, or want to be with you...and you'll be available to give them that if you wish.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I agree with you. I don't want to do this. But here is the problem. The stress was taking its toll on me. At month 4 I was eating, but not sleeping well. Although I was not being overwhelmed by thoughts of her any more, the low level anxiety was eating away at me. So my two "ethical choices" were divorce or medication. Neither are acceptable to me. The non-ethical choice was to become "distracted". So that is the choice I took as I am not ready to quit. I am comfortable in my wife's presence. I am acting like "myself" (and hoping that my hair will stop falling out).
So I am 100% behind your position. I would not advocate what I am doing for anyone else. I am very disappointed in myself that I couldn't hold out. I tried my best to do the honorable thing for as long as I could. All the inspiration you, TN and T and JAR and CMF has gotten me this far. And with all of your help I will keep going until she turns the corner. I am not having love affairs, I am just dating (flirting?).


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## AFEH

iamnottheonlyone said:


> I agree with you. I don't want to do this. But here is the problem. The stress was taking its toll on me. At month 4 I was eating, but not sleeping well. Although I was not being overwhelmed by thoughts of her any more, the low level anxiety was eating away at me. So my two "ethical choices" were divorce or medication. Neither are acceptable to me. The non-ethical choice was to become "distracted". So that is the choice I took as I am not ready to quit. I am comfortable in my wife's presence. I am acting like "myself" (and hoping that my hair will stop falling out).
> So I am 100% behind your position. I would not advocate what I am doing for anyone else. I am very disappointed in myself that I couldn't hold out. I tried my best to do the honorable thing for as long as I could. All the inspiration you, TN and T and JAR and CMF has gotten me this far. And with all of your help I will keep going until she turns the corner. I am not having love affairs, I am just dating (flirting?).


Self deception is a wonderful thing. “I’m just dating/flirting”. That’s not even “just friends”. You gotta put yourself in your date’s shoes. What’s she doing? If she accepts your invite to a date, then there’s something she really likes about you. And the way you’re going she’s going to get hurt. Even if you’ve been right up front with her.

Your hair is falling out? I just don’t see how in any way playing the Nice Guy is working for you.

Bob


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## cmf

IANTOO- Your wife is content. She likes that you act like her husband in public, it lessens her guilt. She could probably go on like this for a very long time. All the needs her other man does not meet, she gets from you( minus the extra money now). Plan B will show her reality. It is hard, I wont lie, but at this point I dont see where Plan A is accomplishing anything for you. That was the point I was at too. She may get angry and file, but her last impression of you will be a good one( I honestly think your Plan A has been incredible!)
I have shared with you my experience with seeing/talking to someone else. Not even dating them. It ended up destroying a 20 year friendship because I was trying to feel better and basically used him to do it. These women like you and I doubt they are looking at dating you as being a distraction for you.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

IANTOO-

Slippery slope you are on. I got frustrated, tired, loney. So, I meet guy. After six weeks of flirting/texting/etc he is frustrated by my lack of availabilty. He meets someone else, just as I am developing real feelings for him. WHAT A MESS!!!! The last embers of love for my H are out for me. H has stalled and stalled and stalled on moving home, although he repeatedly says he is planning to when his lease is up. Others issues remain, as well. All of a sudden, within the past week or so, I realize that I am DONE. It would look very bad very fast upon his return. Better for me to proceed with divorce and stop dragging out the inevitable. 

I do not want to make this about me, but know that dating without being available is tough stuff - for everyone. 

NWHG


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife called this morning. I missed her call. She left a voicemail. My son and I have planned for a couple of weeks to go to a college fair tomorrow. Her message was that she planned to take him and I was welcome to come along. I have been wondering when she would want to get her fall clothes. That was the second part of the message. She only wanted a couple items. She asked if it was ok for her to come on the house and get them.
I talked to my friend S and my friend A before I responded. S said that I should ignore her "plan" and tell her that I was going with my son and she was welcome to join us. As to getting the clothes...I really don't want her in the house if she is not coming home. I don't know how she would respond to her pictures being down. I did not need that issue. So we settled on me just getting her stuff and putting it out in the foyer. A had a different position. He said to just tell her my son and I are going, period. He suggested I tell her the clothes have been tossed. (You can see the macho attitude there.) Then he said take everything out and store it.
I called her. I was very calm and friendly. I said my son and I were going and she could join us. She was a bit snappy asking me how I found out about this. (Through a coach.) I then suggested she tell me what clothes she wanted, so I could put them in the hall for her. She didn't have a problem.
While we were at it I figured I bring up Thanksgiving. She said she had palns. I said I had plans. She knew we were heading north after dinner. I said if she had our son for dinner this Thanksgiving that I would have him for the next. She she understood. 
Thanksgiving seems like a very good day to start Plan B. Me and my son will be up north for every weekend after that. I will change the locks and move her stuff to storage. Sound like a plan?
Any dating will be greatly reduced as I won't be around to date.


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## Tanelornpete

IAM - there is no reason to do a plan B if you are already dating! A Plan B is a step in the recovery process, not a move out of the marriage, it is not the door to divorce. A PLAN B IS NOT THE END OF THE MARRIAGE!!!!! It is a major, drastic step that you take in which you remove yourself from your _spouse's_ life so that they get a taste of what life is like without you. It removes SOME of the daily love busters your cheating spouse is heaping on you via insulation from the problem.

I emphasized the word _spouse_ above, because you still have one; and, you, too, are a spouse. A loyal spouse does NOT date other people. That is what is called an 'affair' - it is the REASON you are here in the first place, no? Going out with other women may stroke your ego, may reassure you that you are desirable - _but isn't that the justification for an affair in the first place?_

An affair almost always happens because of something missing in the marriage, something that the Other Person(s) seem to provide. Isn't that the case in your life? Your wife is feeding you all KINDS of love busters, extinguishing your love? The answer is NOT to look elsewhere for it - if you plan on a Plan B, then you still have a few months of married life ahead of you: even more if the Plan B is effective. 

But you are dating? And you remark that it will be greatly reduced because of distance? Isn't that pretty much like saying 'I won't cheat as often now, because my lover and I aren't in the same city?"

This will come back to bite you. If you are planning on a Plan B then you are still working on your marriage. Try to avoid the problems inherent in dealing with a cheating spouse - from the other side! Are you willing to go through all the trouble of justifying your desire to fill some needs that your wife wasn't filling by chasing after Other Women? 

Please consider this: many people on this site (and every other one) believe that a cheater is in some way morally deficient, pathologically or psychologically troubled, that there is some inherent, behavioristic/materialistic deficiency within them that drives them to cheat. This is simply not the case except for a very, very, _very_ tiny portion of the total sum of humankind. Instead, the reasons are _identical_ to what you face now: you have needs, and they are not being filled. Solution: fill them NOW. Wife not doing it? Here's someone that will!

You are completely within your rights to divorce your wife. If you intend to move on - do it. Don't put off divorce because you are 'in plan A' or 'in plan B'. Put off divorce because you are WORKING ON YOUR MARRIAGE. There is a HUGE difference. You don't take these steps for busy work, or to put off the inevitable. You take these steps because they can be effective tools in guiding a cheating spouse home. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. But the key is remaining in the marriage, being the "NOT-cheating" spouse, remaining faithful and constant, steady, loving, strong, and kind. 

Your job is to be the lighthouse showing the way back to the marriage. You can't do that by shining your light on other people.

If you do plan to move to Plan B, do so with the full understanding that you are still in the marriage. Otherwise, don't waste your time on that step. It is difficult, and if your goal is divorce anyway - just get to that step. Get on with your life!


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife came over today to accompany my son and I to the college fair. When she got in the car she was exuberient for the first few minutes. I haven't seen her like that in 6 months. She had come in the house before we left. There is no way she didn't notice my redecorating and the missing pictures. Was that why she was exuberient. On the drive out and back (2 hours) she only texted a couple of times. She was engaging most of the time. She even bought me a little gift. 
When we got home it turned out she didn't want any of her clothes she only wanted some fabric that was in storage. I took it out of the storage containers and put it the fabric in trash bags.
On the ride back she started to rant to our son about college funding as "we have no money." Since I have heard her whistle this tune before, I was unfazed. I was almost laughing inside. We can't afford a good college because mom is having an affair. 
Her boyfriend picked her up and took her stuff.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I sent an "I love you" text to my wife this morning. She immediately texted me back, "Please stop. It is not what I want." First time she told me not to do that. Fine with me...for a while.


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## Blue Moon

iamnottheonlyone said:


> I sent an "I love you" text to my wife this morning. She immediately texted me back, "Please stop. It is not what I want." First time she told me not to do that. Fine with me...for a while.





Blue Moon said:


> Let her live with her decision and let it play out however it is going to play out. I believe you when you say you're doing better and aren't a wreck anymore, but she's still occupying too much of your time and energy.
> 
> Sending "I love you" texts and unnecessary e-mails comes off as desperate attempts to get back "in there". She ignores these extra communications because they're turn offs for her and come off as lap doggish, especially considering how much time has gone by and you're not "taking a hint".


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## Tanelornpete

If I could make a suggestion - to everyone who feels inclined to send an 'I love you' text to their cheating spouse: don't. The words 'I love you' are essentially meaningless, unless you are using it as a means of expressing your intent: love is action (doing what is right for your spouse, acting in a way that has their best interests in mind.) And while it may be true that you do plan to treat your spouse this way (and, in fact, are) - this information is pointless to someone who is still bound up in fog. 

Instead, let them know something you appreciate about them: "I like the way you are such a hard worker", etc. (You fill in the words.) This information is simply a statement of fact, they can't really debate it, except disingenuously - it's hard to tell someone they don't think what they are thinking; no one has that much information.

Sending a text like 'I love you' works when a couple is intent on pleasing each other: both partners are looking for validation of their emotions. But any other use of it comes across kind of like the Bud commercial: "I love you, man!"


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## iamnottheonlyone

It has been a week since my last post. I have been reading other threads and posting comments. Friday night's game was uneventful. We worked together at the concession stand and took turns watching our son. At the end the game she took him to her place. I went out on a date. (My date was very nice and entertaining.)
W called me Sunday and asked if she could get into the storage unit to get some of her stuff. As I have boundaries now, I told her I would get what ever she needs and leave it for her in the common area of our building. She responded neutrally.
She wants our son on Thursday night. He said he'd go to dinner but doessn't want to sleep over. I think he will break down and stay. He's just such a good kid.
My W and I have less and less contact. Plan B is lurking. I will start preparing myself for the day it comes. I am thinking Thanksgiving Day. I see no reason to change my mind. She is tangled up with her boyfriend and she seems completely uninterested in me.


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## turnera

Plan B is best right before the holidays, so they get the full impact of missing out on traditions.


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## insafemode

*I NEED HELP !!! AND FAST !!!!

I HAVE READ MOST OF THE PAGES ON THIS POST AND I'M CONVINCED THAT THE INTELLIGENT AND WONDERFUL PEOPLE ON HERE CAN HELP! I TRULY HOPE SO !!!

I have been in my relationship for 17 years, same woman... I don't even know how to start talking about this mess! I have 2 children but they're older now (20 and 23) and they're busy with their lives... so they're not really the concern. The basic problem here is that prior to my relationship with her, she had 2 lesbian relationships that lasted pretty long... one was 5 years.

When we got together, she realized that being with a guy was more "natural" on many levels and we worked on our life... although she has been a handful... very needy, very self deserving and also very beautiful (which has posed a roster of problems over the years). About 7 years ago, I think she was having an affair with a guy (but wasn't sure) and I became pretty aggressive, so she backed off and we managed to re-kindle our relationship...

Everything for the past 7 years or so, has been fine... UNTIL THIS!!! Out of nowhere, she gets an e-mail from her very first love (who lives in another Country). EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING that she was, has re-surfaced. All the lesbian tendencies, sexuality, drives... ALL OF IT has come back.

This woman has a high paying job (big deal) but she has money behind her, so there's success, she travels a lot, so there's interest there of course and much more... it's a very desirable thing since they have a history together, which is making them act like teenagers again. Money is not an issue for either of them.

She dropped a small bomb on me a month ago, saying that she bought tickets for Vegas for her an her Mother as a birthday gift since she's never taken her Mother anywhere with just the 2 of them but what she failed to explain was her ulterior motive, which was to meet with this woman in Vegas, leave her Mother there to play the slot machines while she has this deep love affair with her lover. How do I know this? I have absolutely every single e-mail communication they've ever had between them from the beginning.

The "woman" would be signing into a hotel under a false name, they would be taking hotels adjacent (close by) and having the time of their life... Now, I'm no rocket scientist... but something is seriously wrong here!

When she told me she bought the tickets for her and her Mother, I told her that if she goes, I sense "disaster" with our relationship and that I'm having these "impending thoughts of doom" over this... as I clearly knew why she was going and using her Mother as a smoke screen.

She became very upset and said she would cancel the tickets... then started "blaming" me for ruining her nice fun vacation with her Mother... then she totally stopped talking to me... and it was silent in the house for a month.

Her Mother (who visits on weekends - very nice lady and loves me very much), was very angry with me for stopping this and wanted an explanation... then I told her why and showed her the e-mails... She's now been crying every day for a month and said that she will "dis-own" her daughter if she leaves me for this woman... she explained that she knows this woman from years back and that she's a bossy and demanding idiot...

OK.... here we are... and I've had enough of the daily e-mails and calls... it's killing me, we are now 3 months into this, I've lost 20 pounds and wasn't even fat to begin with and I'm ready.... so this is my plan:

1. This Friday, I'm going to have over 600 pages of all her e-mails printed and put into a 3 ring binder and wrap it in gift paper.
2. I'm going to "grill" her once again so she tells all the same lies one more time, so they're all "fresh lies".
3. I'm going to give her the "evidence" and show her what a rotten idiot she's been and that she's going to lose her job, her Mother, Me, Her family, her beautiful home and the beautiful pets we have... everything will be gone...
4. I'm going to e-mail the "woman" and tell her that she must immediately stop all communication with my wife and if she doesn't, I'm going to put forward a tort-feasor against her and sue her for interference. (like that'll work!)
5. I'm going to change her passwords on the computer and tell her that she must call work and take a 1 week leave of absence for family problems (they'll let her).

THEN WORK ON THIS WOMAN AND MAKE HER SEE WHAT SHE WILL LOSE... OK, OK.... You're probably thinking that I sound like a control freak... but I'm not... This is a woman that is treating me like a doormat, has no respect for anything I do, have done for her or anyone else for that matter and she's acting like nothing is wrong, except that she has alienated me completely from everything in her life.

Well? What do think ??? You know, 17 years of my life is a long time and not only do I love her, but I'm still in love with her, which is really remarkable considering all the crap...

SOMEBODY STOP ME... OR CORRECT ME !!! OR FIX ME !!! OR SOMETHING !!! (castration is not an option... hang on... ok... no).

D.*


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## turnera

Hi, insafemode. Try to cut and paste your post into a new thread, so more people will find you, ok?


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## insafemode

Hello...

This was my first day on the site... I didn't know where to post what and how... but I'm learning quickly.

I just posted it to a new thread... thank you.

This is just so incredible... It's like everything we value in our lives has been flushed down the toilet...

I'm taking "very aggressive" action in 3 days and if I'm wrong, that's it... game over... and this time it'll be permanent.

Any suggestions?


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## turnera

Let me look for your new thread. What section is it in?


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## insafemode

It's in the Coping with Infidelity section... I think it's the same section as this tread is posted in...

I've been awake for 21 hours... and still can't sleep... it's like that every day... I sleep for 2 hours twice a day... out of exhaustion.

If I don't do anything, I'll get ill for sure....


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> It has been a week since my last post. ...I went out on a date. (My date was very nice and entertaining.)
> 
> My W and I have less and less contact. Plan B is lurking. I will start preparing myself for the day it comes. I am thinking Thanksgiving Day. I see no reason to change my mind. She is tangled up with her boyfriend and she seems completely uninterested in me.


I'm sorry IAM but I am so disappointed. To quote my own Dear Hubby:


> "...there is no reason to do a plan B if you are already dating! A Plan B is a step in the recovery process, not a move out of the marriage, it is not the door to divorce. A PLAN B IS NOT THE END OF THE MARRIAGE!!!!!"


I know that you know dating while married is just as unfaithful as what your wife is doing. I know that you have justified your own dating "because you don't want to take meds." Dating feels good, and if you stop, you might actually have to face the pain. Sound familiar? Like OM's flirting FELT GOOD and if she stopped her affair, she would have to face the pain? Let me guess--you are thinking to yourself something like: "But you don't understand. I'm not cheating. We're just friends--I'm not leading them on at all. It's a harmless dalliance. We just talk, and maybe flirt a little. This is not affecting my marriage." Again--Sound familiar? Do disloyal spouses not say "We were only friends" and "We only talk!" and "I decided I didn't love you long before I started having feelings for OP. They didn't have any effect."? Come on IAM! You are a smart, capable man and I know that you know you are allowing yourself to be overcome by FOG!! 

You asked your wife to be strong enough to admit what she was doing is wrong and courageously stop it. Can you? Do you have the strength and moral fortitude to do what you asked HER to do?

Here it is in black and white. You can make one decision or the other, but not put one foot in each side. Either end your marriage and divorce your wife--which you have every legal and moral right to do--and THEN date....OR actually work to give your marriage every possible chance, take the moral high ground and remain faithful, and go to Plan B/No Contact. 

Have you read JAR thread yet? Did you read in there what I wrote to him? Plan B/No Contact is not about ending your marriage or asking for divorce: it means you are going to the next step in the attempt to give your marriage one more chance to survive. If you are going to date, you are not working to save your marriage!! It's just that easy. 

So divorce now. When the divorce is final, you are free to date. 

Or stop dating and go to Plan B now. End all contact with all OW and put your energy and actions into honoring your vows. 

I can honestly say that you have fought the good fight up to this point. If you decided to file, I doubt if anyone would think less of you. But dating while married is a guaranteed way to tarnish that, and I will not admire you as the strong man I know you can be. Come on, IAM. You can do better.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thanks for the pep talk. I really mean it. I do want my marriage to last. However, I was just in such a bad painful place I had to get my MOJO back. It has returned. I am feeling much more independent. I can dial back on the dating. 
Problem remains that there will be no contact after Thanksgiving. She will have no reason or desire to have anything to do with me. So why not Plan B? I'll be Plan B without a letter. 
I took her clothes out of storage yesterday and rounded up just about everything else of hers today. Everything went into trash bags and out to the common area. She can/will pick the stuff up tomorrow. I think she will be happy to have all her things. I have already filled the empty space with my things and my son's stuff. I am okay with it.


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## turnera

Why not Plan B without a letter?

Because the LETTER is your one last chance to get through to her. It's a big reminder to her that SHE has caused all this and YOU have to protect yourself from her. She'll remember that the rest of her life, reading that letter, whether she comes home or not.

And it just may help her.


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## Tanelornpete

> Thanks for the pep talk. I really mean it. I do want my marriage to last. However, I was just in such a bad painful place I had to get my MOJO back. It has returned. I am feeling much more independent. I can dial back on the dating.


Again, I want to point this out, reiterate what my wife wrote above: 

It is VERY common for a Disloyal Spouse to make the claim 'they want their marriage to work' and 'they did everything they could' - but things just got so bad that they just HAD to find someone else to fill in what was missing. Is that not behind the ENTIRE point of a love kindler - an emotional need? 

What happens is _wrong_ period. I am not aware of the moral foundation upon which you stand, but I would point out that at the very least, you most likely depend upon the idea that when people make promises, they should keep them - if not for the simple pragmatic reason that nothing could get done otherwise. And thus, even by that rather vacant moral premise, someone who breaks a promise is not acting morally!. 

Your wife promised that she would be faithful to you, did she not? And she broke that promise - possible because she was feeling let down, she felt that some of her emotional needs were not being met - and she chose _a wrong way_ to get them filled! 

You promised to your wife that you would be faithful, did you not? And now, you are feeling some of those needs missing: you want your MOJO back, so to speak. And so you turn to _other women_ - outside of your marriage - to fulfill the thing which your WIFE promised to do for you.

Your wife did that, and you felt hurt and betrayed. Why? Because your wife chose an _immoral_ solution. And yet - you do the same thing! 

And - you feel safer about it because your wife isn't around. That feeling of safety is _irrelevant_! It is wrong _regardless_ of what geographical areas your wife occupies! 

So, you got some reassurance of your MOJO - something that for SOME reason you believed could not wait another 6 or 9 months! It's your WIFE'S responsibility to reassure you of your MOJO. Not some other woman's. And it is your responsibility to act morally - regardless of your wife's choices, is it not?

Don't 'scale it back'! STOP IT NOW! I gave you the advice to avoid it like you avoid ironing your face earlier. I meant that literally. It is dangerous, and will come back to bite you.

If you intend to get your needs filled by Other Women, then do your wife the courtesy of exiting the marriage. Don't place a double standard on her: She is not allowed to get HER needs filled by others - but _you are_! 

I stand by my original advice: if you intend to date, plan B is an absolute waste of time. Plan A and Plan B only work if you remain faithful.


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## iamnottheonlyone

WE spent the afternoon together at the game. All very typical. I was sitting with my son's girlfriend when W showed up. She came and sat between us. No kiss on the cheek or hug. I offered a couple high fives on good plays by our son which she modestly responded to. She offered to buy a snack at half time. When we were standing together with some other people during half time discusssing play calling I did not focus on her in the conversation and she seemed annoyed she wasn't more a part of my focus when I was speaking. I should have been more focused on her.
She came by the house after the game to pick up our son for the night. She asked to "use your bathroom". Annoying statements. I had all he clothes in the trash bags in the common area. No kiss on the way the door nor did I make a move to give one. I didn't help her load the stuff in the car.
Could things be going perfect with her relationship after 7 months of seperation, I cna't even have a couple dates with out having some issue develope. But I don't see a crack in her armour. She only seems to be getting more distant.
I was out on a date Friday. One of the other woman I have dated called while I was out on the date. I didn't answer. I texted her the next day that I had left my phone in the car and that is why I didn't return her call. Her responce was a text that she would "accept my explanation this time". That upset me. It hit the "Trust" nerve. I became quite sad. I have always been trusted and trusting. My W sent me back into a world I had hoped I would never see. With my focus not on one woman I can see how easy the lies and deceptions can spill out. And the controlling reations women can have when they like someone. As a result I told this woman I couldn't see her for a few days and she felt the same was about me. Wow! I hate this stuff. I love(d) being married and having that one person you could really count on.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I got a late night text from my wife asking me to call her in the morning. My body is shaking.


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## AFEH

iamnottheonlyone said:


> WE spent the afternoon together at the game. All very typical. I was sitting with my son's girlfriend when W showed up. She came and sat between us. No kiss on the cheek or hug. I offered a couple high fives on good plays by our son which she modestly responded to. She offered to buy a snack at half time. When we were standing together with some other people during half time discussing play calling I did not focus on her in the conversation and she seemed annoyed she wasn't more a part of my focus when I was speaking. I should have been more focused on her.


I think it’s pretty well know known that I think the first thing to do is put boundaries up and withdraw all forms of support and attention. If you’d done that a long while ago you would have got that type of response a lot more. It is fear of loss that is a great motivator. Your wife has had no fear of losing you. When you deny her attention, you get the response you got at the game and that’s the type of response you want. It shows there’s still something there in them for you. More importantly it’s a wake up call for her that she still cares for you and what you provide. You could have had a lot more of that by the looks of things.

Sounds to me like she was jealous of the attention you were giving others. If she was jealous, there is still love there.




iamnottheonlyone said:


> She came by the house after the game to pick up our son for the night. She asked to "use your bathroom". Annoying statements. I had all he clothes in the trash bags in the common area. No kiss on the way the door nor did I make a move to give one. I didn't help her load the stuff in the car.


“Use your bathroom”. Absolutely, now she’s getting hissy with the thought “this was my bathroom as well”. She doesn’t like the thought it’s no longer hers which is another sign of “care” through grieving her loss. Reckon you could have had a lot more of that as well, truly letting her feel what she loses by leaving you by withdrawing all forms of help and support at the outset.




iamnottheonlyone said:


> Could things be going perfect with her relationship after 7 months of separation, I can’t even have a couple dates with out having some issue develop. But I don't see a crack in her armour. She only seems to be getting more distant.


You are missing the cracks. The more angst towards you there is in her in response to this type of thing the deeper her connection with you.



iamnottheonlyone said:


> I was out on a date Friday. One of the other woman I have dated called while I was out on the date. I didn't answer. I texted her the next day that I had left my phone in the car and that is why I didn't return her call. Her response was a text that she would "accept my explanation this time". That upset me. It hit the "Trust" nerve. I became quite sad. I have always been trusted and trusting. My W sent me back into a world I had hoped I would never see. With my focus not on one woman I can see how easy the lies and deceptions can spill out. And the controlling reactions women can have when they like someone. As a result I told this woman I couldn't see her for a few days and she felt the same way about me. Wow! I hate this stuff. I love(d) being married and having that one person you could really count on.


Why on earth did you lie about where your phone was? I don’t know why people do that sort of thing. All you needed to do was to say “Sorry I didn’t call back yesterday”. That’s all, nothing else. You say you want to be trusted but you don’t give honesty! 

Bob


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## AFEH

iamnottheonlyone said:


> I got a late night text from my wife asking me to call her in the morning. My body is shaking.


Well send her a txt in the morning and say if it's urgent call you if you don't hear from her call her late afternoon!

You have to take control, don't give it away.

Bob


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## Tanelornpete

Iam, two major wrongs here: 

First one, Bob pointed out: you have still not defined any boundaries - your wife has no idea who you really are.

Second, 



> I can’t even have a couple dates with out having some issue develop. But I don't see a crack in her armour. She only seems to be getting more distant.


From your wife's point of view: I can't find another man who actually makes me happy without some issue develops. Cheaters tend to think in those patterns.

You will lose ANY and ALL chances of your marriage recovering (and quite soon) _if you do not_:

1) establish some real boundaries, and 

2) quit cheating on your wife. Regardless of the gratification it gives you, it is still a direct contradiction to the contract you made with your wife. Your decision to date other women, _while still married_ simply establishes to your wife that your vows mean as much to you as they do to her. No reason for her to expect the marriage to work: you cheat as much as she does. And you want her to stop, while you go ahead and do it. 'Self-esteem' is pursued wrongly if it means breaking promises, going back on your word, or lying to your wife in order to feel some sort of gratification. The point of recognizing you value is not identical to feeling good 'right _now_'.


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## cmf

IANTOO- My H used to refer to the house as "your house" too. it really annoyed me and I use to correct him but I stopped doing it. I am also confused as to why you lied to that woman about your phone. Why not be honest with the women you date as to the fact that you are seeing other people. These woman are already reading a lot into the dating and this could all backfire on you in a major way. If you do reconcile one of these women might not like it too much and cause you and your wife some drama. I hope you did not immediately respond to your wife's text. She is sensing you are distancing from her and as soon as she gets you to respond she will back off again.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Turned out she was upset that my son hasn't been paying enough attention to her. She needed to vent. I listened. And listened. For 5 minutes. I told her that he wanted to be with her but that he had trouble adjusting to the idea that she had a boyfriend. She said she was struggling with all this. I said we ought to talk about Thanksgiving as her boyfriend was going to be at Thanksgiving dinner with him so that might be a difficult time. She then went off on me about not accepting the situation. I told her that I accept the situation but I don't have to accept my son having any contact with her boyfriend. She then accused me of talking over her (I heard that 2 weeks before D-Day.) I let her finish. She didn't want me to interfere. I told her that if she wants to convince our son to like her boyfriend then I am entitled to not try to convince him to like her boyfriend. She said I should intervene. I said I would not intervene. I told her she is proactive and I am passive. But if she wants to continue this behavior then I will be proactive. I told her that I will never change my mind that my son should not associate with a person of his character. I told her to go back to the beginning of the conversation. All I was saying (as I laughed) was that she wants things to go more smoothly between her and our son and that it might not be a pleasant Thanksgiving dinner and you ought to think about that. Then she said that OMs kids are coming too. I laughed again. I said that she is exercising very poor judgment. I said that I'm the innocent party here. Any trouble she is having with her son is her fault not mine. She then said she would talk to me later and hung up.
Tell me the boundaries I should set.


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## cmf

My God, I just went through the same thing about 10 minutes ago. The disloyals can be so selfish, not seeing how their actions hurt their own children.
I would advise you to say very little to her when she starts this stuff. Telling her you would not smooth things over with your son to accept OM should be enough. She is trying to make you the bad guy. Very typical.


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## turnera

iamnottheonlyone said:


> I was out on a date Friday. One of the other woman I have dated called while I was out on the date. I didn't answer. I texted her the next day that I had left my phone in the car and that is why I didn't return her call. Her responce was a text that she would "accept my explanation this time". That upset me. It hit the "Trust" nerve. I became quite sad. I have always been trusted and trusting. My W sent me back into a world I had hoped I would never see. With my focus not on one woman I can see how easy the lies and deceptions can spill out. And the controlling reations women can have when they like someone. As a result I told this woman I couldn't see her for a few days and she felt the same was about me. Wow! I hate this stuff. I love(d) being married and having that one person you could really count on.


 Uh, yeah, that's what happens when you LIE to people.

You were LYING. Sucks to get caught, doesn't it?

Maybe you should be reconsidering what you are doing.


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## iamnottheonlyone

For the second day in a row my W called me for no real reason. I did't think I would hear from here for sometime after yesterday's row. She was palnning to take our son for his senior picture and let me know that. We had a plesant chat.
She texted me while she was at the gym tonight that she wanted to take a few clothing items while she was at the house waiting for my son to change. I told her that she could not take anything from "my house" with out me being there. She was in the house. I told her to leave the house. She said she just had a coulpe items she wanted. I said I would get them for her and leave them in the common area for her to pick up tomorrow. She wanted to take them tonight. It told that I had boundaries and she needed to respect them. She said, "I really wish you didn't do that. Unnecessary and makes things more clear. Have EVERY thing I own packed ASAP." I responded, "I really wish you didn't do that too." 
Did I do the right thing? It certainly feels like it. I don't feel badly. I feel a bit angry. But I never realy lost control in talking or texting with her. I am a bit upset. Do I pack EVERY thing? It does appear she was living things here because she wasn't ready to make the break considering it sounds like she thinks she is punishing me by giving me extra closet space.


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## turnera

Yeah, she's still expecting it to be HER home. Pack up everything, place it on the curb, and tell her that you have called Salvation Army, and they will be there on Thursday - she has two days to pick it all up or it will be donated.

Grow a pair so she can learn to respect you.


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## Affaircare

iamnottheonlyone said:


> ... She texted me while she was at the gym tonight that she wanted to take a few clothing items while she was at the house waiting for my son to change. I told her that she could not take anything from "my house" with out me being there. ... It told that I had boundaries and she needed to respect them. She said, "I really wish you didn't do that. Unnecessary and makes things more clear. *Have EVERY thing I own packed ASAP.*" I responded, "I really wish you didn't do that too."


This is just me, but I could see doing this one of two ways: 

1) More or less follow Turnera's advice and get it over with. Pack her things, leave them in the common area, notify her...or store them in a storage unit with one month's rent and mail her the key. If she doesn't get the items or pay next month's rent that her business. Or maybe hire a moving company to come pack her things and move them over to her...and give her the bill! 

2) Why should you pack her things? She's the one who made the choice to destroy the family and leave, so why should you do her dirty work? You just don't want her to take things while you aren't present and when it's not convenient for you. Thus I could see saying, "I will not pack your things. You chose to commit adultery. You chose to leave the marital home. You chose to break up the family. If you want your things you can come and pack when I am present and arrange it like a responsible adult. You have to do your own dirty work--I won't assist in your choice to commit infidelity." Now IAM, you can see how your position is greatly weakened by the fact that you yourself are being unfaithful. So whilst the sentiment is right, it's just not going to pack the same wallop or have the same meaning 

This is just my observation, but have you noticed how much more messy and complicated life gets when you try to date while you're married? Do you realize we caution you against doing it not because we want you to hurt and be lonely, but because it messes everything up! The fog is now coming out of your mouth--you're justifying the same as she did--look what you're teaching your son (very confusing)--and some of the ladies you're going out with clearly are thinking along the lines of exclusivity or else why would you lie to them and why would they be upset you're with someone else? 

It's a mess, IAM. You can stop it. You had hoped your wife would be brave enough and strong enough--so show her and your son that you can do what you asked of her. Be the bigger man!


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## AFEH

IAM, I reckon you are way too late for setting your boundaries. What I see you’ve done is when your wife was in the shallow end of her affair, you gave her a lifejacket and helped her on with it. You then put some more buoyancy aids on her, took her hand and slowly walked with her up to the deep end. And she’s learnt to swim in her affair … without you.

Now she’s swimming just fine. She’s made her decision who she’s going to be with.

Boundaries are about putting them in the deep end as soon as you discover the affair. You simply let them sink or swim by themselves, you most certainly don’t help them to swim. You just let them know their life is their choice and theirs alone. And if you want to, you let them know that you love them and you’re prepared to wait a while for them to come back. But that’s when the affair is over and it’s under their own steam. It must be something they want to do.

Bob


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> Why not Plan B without a letter?
> 
> Because the LETTER is your one last chance to get through to her. It's a big reminder to her that SHE has caused all this and YOU have to protect yourself from her. She'll remember that the rest of her life, reading that letter, whether she comes home or not.
> 
> And it just may help her.


I just don’t see it the same way … such a letter pointing out “the consequences”. She’s now been prepared to take those consequences, he let her in so slowly to them following “the process”.

In my mind such a letter will do nothing other than antagonise his wife more against him, she’s way antagonised already, and it’ll alienate her from him even more than she’s alienated already.

To me as I see it she still has feelings for the guy. This sort of letter will probably wipe out those feelings she does have left. He hasn’t “learnt” and she knows he hasn’t learnt. He’s been way too much the “Nice Guy” following this process.

Bob


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## turnera

Do you know what a Plan B letter is? It's a love letter. A love letter that says I love you too much to keep watching you not return my love, so I have to protect my heart by avoiding you. But if you want to return to our marriage and commit to it, I'll be here.


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> Do you know what a Plan B letter is? It's a love letter. A love letter that says I love you too much to keep watching you not return my love, so I have to protect my heart by avoiding you. But if you want to return to our marriage and commit to it, I'll be here.


A love letter saying he needs to protect himself from her actions? He needed to do that from the get go with personal boundaries, that is what they are there for in these things. It’s gone on way too long. She’s well settled now.

She doesn’t want his love, if she did she would still be with him. She’s made that exceptionally clear. As I said all it will do is antagonise her even more. “He hasn’t been “listening””, “he just doesn’t get it and he never will”. It will alienate her even further. If there is a spark there he can rekindle such a letter will not do it. He may as well call out the fire brigade and ask them to hose her down.

I agree with much of what you believe in and say. I don’t agree with this. If he’s going to go no contact he should just do it, no need to creep, crawl and be a “lovey” about it. All he need do is set up boundaries for himself, his child and his wife. Yes, in that order. If he can’t take care of himself he can’t take care of anybody.

Maybe it wont get her back. But at least he’ll preserve some self respect, dignity and self esteem and come out of it like a man. He’s been mothered way too much with “soppy stuff”. And he’s let himself be mothered.

Bob


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## turnera

A Plan B letter most definitely gives him back self respect. It is him telling her that he loves her, but he will no longer be a doormat if she won't return the love. It IS a boundary. Have you read the material on which it is based?


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> A Plan B letter most definitely gives him back self respect. It is him telling her that he loves her, but he will no longer be a doormat if she won't return the love. It IS a boundary. Have you read the material on which it is based?


He shouldn’t have been a doormat in the first place Turnera. If he wasn’t one before the affair, doing what he’s done has certainly turned him into one. What woman wants a doormat?

That letter will not make any difference. Give him back his self-respect. Do you honestly believe that? Why take him though a process more or less guaranteed to lose his self-respect in the first place anyway?

The whole process should be started off with the aim of maintaining self-respect, self-esteem and dignity. Not losing it all and recovering it in “a letter” 3 months and 700 posts later.



"It is him telling her that he loves her, but he will no longer be a doormat if she won't return the love.".

Your words Turnera. My goodness. So in your terms, he will be a doormat if she loves him? Well guess what. Maybe she just don't want a doormat for a husband.

Bob


----------



## turnera

Bob, the letter is part of a planned response to cheating. It is ONE step in a logical series of steps that are designed to help the BS. The letter is not suggested to MAKE her do anything. It is for the BS to psychologically let go of his toxic situation. 

Of course he doesn't HAVE to write her a letter. But I've been around such stuff a long time, and I can't tell you how many BS's have written one and then reported back that doing so FINALLY gave them a sense of closure, of self-respect, and of control. It helps them move on.

If you don't want to use one, don't. But you don't have to waste his thread arguing over your opinion.


----------



## AFEH

turnera said:


> Bob, the letter is part of a planned response to cheating. It is ONE step in a logical series of steps that are designed to help the BS. The letter is not suggested to MAKE her do anything. It is for the BS to psychologically let go of his toxic situation.
> 
> Of course he doesn't HAVE to write her a letter. But I've been around such stuff a long time, and I can't tell you how many BS's have written one and then reported back that doing so FINALLY gave them a sense of closure, of self-respect, and of control. It helps them move on.
> 
> If you don't want to use one, don't. But you don't have to waste his thread arguing over your opinion.


So it was all setup to fail in the first place? Certainly seemed that way to me, almost guaranteed failure. Failure to win his wife back. Failure to maintain self-respect, dignity and self-esteem. Did succeed in one thing, the creation of a doormat. And then the very last thing you do is write a letter with at least some form of boundary in it to “protect yourself and get your self-esteem back”.

No wonder they need to write that letter after that lot.

Bob


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## turnera

Of course not.

If you HAD read the material, you would have seen that the steps are taken in order - ONLY if the wayward doesn't end the affair. You start with step one - confronting them with your knowledge and asking them to stop. 

If they refuse, you move on to step two - asking a close person to talk to them and ask them to reconsider what they are doing. 

And so on.


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> If you don't want to use one, don't. But you don't have to waste his thread arguing over your opinion.


I ain’t never had to write that type of letter in 42 years of being with my wife.

Waste his thread. If IANOO asks/tells me to butt out I most certainly will. If he thinks I’m wasting his thread that’s all he need say. As far as I can see you’re all going down a crazy route, from my point of view only thing it guarantees is failure. In those types of circumstances different voices with different opinions can make a difference. And in these circumstances of Abject Failure different voices with different opinions should not only be listened to but sought out.

Bob


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> Of course not.
> 
> If you HAD read the material, you would have seen that the steps are taken in order - ONLY if the wayward doesn't end the affair. You start with step one - confronting them with your knowledge and asking them to stop.
> 
> If they refuse, you move on to step two - asking a close person to talk to them and ask them to reconsider what they are doing.
> 
> And so on.


A man takes care of his own business. He most certainly doesn’t ask anyone else to do it for him. And a man who loves his wife most certainly does not make her private business public with the intent of shaming her no matter what the circumstances. That is truly wickedly manipulative and deserves the response it gets.

Bob


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## Tanelornpete

> A man takes care of his own business. He most certainly doesn’t ask anyone else to do it for him. And a man who loves his wife most certainly does not make her private business public with the intent of shaming her no matter what the circumstances. That is truly wickedly manipulative and deserves the response it gets.


None, not a one, of the reasons you give in this paragraph, have anything to do with why these steps have been so effective over the many, many years they've been used. They are not used to 'get people to do' someone's work, they are _never_ to be used to shame a person. 

These are straw man objections, meaningless, arguing with smoke and mirrors about a nonexistent phenomenon. Beyond that, none of what has been written contradicts what you argue as necessary (keeping, gaining 'self esteem', refusing to be a doormat, or stating and maintaining boundaries.) They include these categories as _necessary_ parts of the whole. Your remarks reveal a profound (and, I suspect, deliberate) ignorance of what we have been saying on this site, as well as how it's been used on many other web resources, and - before the internet was invented - how people proceeded in the past. (See Matthew 18:15-17) for a pre-internet version of the same thing. This 'technique' works because it addresses the heart of the issues involved (the fact that an affair is a _symptom_ of a troubled marriage, that lying is a basic means of enabling the affair, and that immoral action is much harder to maintain when it is general knowledge.) This technique is not guaranteed - there are no guaranteed means, it isn't presented as the one working method. 

But it is highly effective. I've seen it work many, many times: one of the two main reasons I chose to study and use it. It's why so many people on this site use it in one form or another. It's honorable to be a skeptic - its something entirely otherwise to simply be a contrarian.


----------



## AFEH

Tanelornpete said:


> None, not a one, of the reasons you give in this paragraph, have anything to do with why these steps have been so effective over the many, many years they've been used. They are not used to 'get people to do' someone's work, they are _never_ to be used to shame a person.
> 
> These are straw man objections, meaningless, arguing with smoke and mirrors about a nonexistent phenomenon. Beyond that, none of what has been written contradicts what you argue as necessary (keeping, gaining 'self esteem', refusing to be a doormat, or stating and maintaining boundaries.) They include these categories as _necessary_ parts of the whole. Your remarks reveal a profound (and, I suspect, deliberate) ignorance of what we have been saying on this site, as well as how it's been used on many other web resources, and - before the internet was invented - how people proceeded in the past. (See Matthew 18:15-18) for a pre-internet version of the same thing. This 'technique' works because it addresses the heart of the issues involved (the fact that an affair is a _symptom_ of a troubled marriage, that lying is a basic means of enabling the affair, and that immoral action is much harder to maintain when it is general knowledge.) This technique is not guaranteed - there are no guaranteed means, it isn't presented as the one working method.
> 
> But it is highly effective. I've seen it work many, many times: one of the two main reasons I chose to study and use it. It's why so many people on this site use it in one form or another. It's honorable to be a skeptic - its something entirely otherwise to simply be a contrarian.


As far as I'm concered you are fundamentally incorrect and your justifications and results prove it.

Bob


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## iamnottheonlyone

I will pack her stuff and put it out. I like the idea behind letting her pack her stuff but that just leads to complications. What would she call hers. What would I call mine. This way I decide what is hers and what is mine. 
I am going to change the locks today. I was concerned all day that she would enter the home. I just don't need to worry about that.
Bob, there is just no way that I could have set those boundaries 6 months ago. I have trouble now. When she left it took me a month to figure out/recognize she wasn't coming home. If I had pushed her out into the deep end without the jacket I would have never extended a hand later on. Never. We would be having a very ugly divorce right now. So the boundary was set and she is ticked that I enforced it. She and I will have to play this hand out.


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## land2634

AFEH said:


> As far as I'm concered you are fundamentally incorrect and your justifications and results prove it.
> 
> Bob


I am normally very non-confrontational, but quite frankly I've watched you hijack several threads, including my own, with your ramblings on how everyone seems to be going about things the wrong way. I say hijack because you seemingly berate and belittle the plans that people are following yet offer no solution of your own. People are following the plan set forth by folks such as Tanelornpete, Affaircare, and Turnera because the steps are about as straight-forward as you will see as far as dealing with an affair. The plan throws out much of the subjective psychological babble and replaces it with deliberate steps one can take to recover from the pain of an affair, regardless of the end result of the marriage. The fact is, no better course of action has yet been presented by anyone, including yourself.

Your argument that the results speak for themselves is futile at best. The fact is, Tanelorn and Affaircare do much more work that what is seen on this forum, and none of us know what the success rate of saving marriages is, but I would easily argue that it doesn't matter. I know at least for myself, I have gained so much as an individual by following the steps they laid out for me, and I would feel fairly confident in saying many others on this site alone would agree with me.

I'm all for differing opinions, but if you're going to go around in these threads and spend time telling people they've wasted their time, at least offer a solution of your own, not some cryptic message about what women really want. Throw some steps of your own out there. That is my opinion.

In any case, I'm sorry to hijack this thread myself, but this is something I feel VERY strongly about because I know that, even though my marriage is in shambles, I am a better person than I was nearly six months ago.


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## AFEH

land2634 said:


> I am normally very non-confrontational, but quite frankly I've watched you hijack several threads, including my own, with your ramblings on how everyone seems to be going about things the wrong way. I say hijack because you seemingly berate and belittle the plans that people are following yet offer no solution of your own. People are following the plan set forth by folks such as Tanelornpete, Affaircare, and Turnera because the steps are about as straight-forward as you will see as far as dealing with an affair. The plan throws out much of the subjective psychological babble and replaces it with deliberate steps one can take to recover from the pain of an affair, regardless of the end result of the marriage. The fact is, no better course of action has yet been presented by anyone, including yourself.
> 
> Your argument that the results speak for themselves is futile at best. The fact is, Tanelorn and Affaircare do much more work that what is seen on this forum, and none of us know what the success rate of saving marriages is, but I would easily argue that it doesn't matter. I know at least for myself, I have gained so much as an individual by following the steps they laid out for me, and I would feel fairly confident in saying many others on this site alone would agree with me.
> 
> I'm all for differing opinions, but if you're going to go around in these threads and spend time telling people they've wasted their time, at least offer a solution of your own, not some cryptic message about what women really want. Throw some steps of your own out there. That is my opinion.
> 
> In any case, I'm sorry to hijack this thread myself, but this is something I feel VERY strongly about because I know that, even though my marriage is in shambles, I am a better person than I was nearly six months ago.


Good for you. Stand up for yourself and all that you stand for. Now you are getting some backbone. Keep it going.

Bob


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## AFEH

iamnottheonlyone said:


> I will pack her stuff and put it out. I like the idea behind letting her pack her stuff but that just leads to complications. What would she call hers. What would I call mine. This way I decide what is hers and what is mine.
> I am going to change the locks today. I was concerned all day that she would enter the home. I just don't need to worry about that.
> Bob, there is just no way that I could have set those boundaries 6 months ago. I have trouble now. When she left it took me a month to figure out/recognize she wasn't coming home. If I had pushed her out into the deep end without the jacket I would have never extended a hand later on. Never. We would be having a very ugly divorce right now. So the boundary was set and she is ticked that I enforced it. She and I will have to play this hand out.


Well you're setting some pretty decent boundaries now. Your boundaries are good.

There’s no reason at all not to set them in the first place and letting them know that your hand is there … if they want to take it back again. But we don’t know that until “after”. It took me years to set my boundaries. You are way ahead of me.

I do truly understand your “month”. These things change so quickly and we do need to take stock and reflect.

Keep on setting your boundaries while at the same time letting her know your door is open.

Bob


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## turnera

Bob, I'm confused. Isn't your wife divorcing you?


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> Bob, I'm confused. Isn't your wife divorcing you?


Look Turnera, I was in a relationship with my wife for 42 years. I am no longer in that relationship because I don’t want to be.

Is that cryptic? I don't know. I do know it's very complicated and I do know it's my choice.

Bob


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## turnera

That's cool. It's just you were making it sound like you have the right solutions, _since you were married over 40 years_ (or however you worded it), but that seemed a little disingenuous, seeing how the marriage wasn't continuing. IMO you have a lot of anger and aggression in the issues you create here - and if I had to guess it's directed at your stbx, via us. *shrug*


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> That's cool. It's just you were making it sound like you have the right solutions, _since you were married over 40 years_ (or however you worded it), but that seemed a little disingenuous, seeing how the marriage wasn't continuing. IMO you have a lot of anger and aggression in the issues you create here - and if I had to guess it's directed at your stbx, via us. *shrug*


No. If I think I should speak out I do. I have not yet seen one "success story" with this AC A/B process. Not one on this forum. If there is show it to me. I challenge you and AC to do that.

And if you can't show me success then just be aware of that fact.

And if you didn't even bother to define "what a successful outcome is" at the start of the whole process then just be aware of that fact as well. 

Bob


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## turnera

There are lots of success stories over on MB and at marriageadvocates, both which subscribe to the methodology. And affaircare has already said she has had a lot of success with it. I can't remember many names, but there's one at MA called lildoggie that I can remember. I'll have to go and look for some if I can find the time.


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> There are lots of success stories over on MB and at marriageadvocates, both which subscribe to the methodology. And affaircare has already said she has had a lot of success with it. I can't remember many names, but there's one at MA called lildoggie that I can remember. I'll have to go and look for some if I can find the time.


Well if it was me following your advice I sure as heck would need you to "find the time" to come up with success stories. As I would with AC. Even if I wasn't paying for it.

If you guys can come up with it I sure as heck will eat humble pie.

Bob


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## iamnottheonlyone

Strange day. I don't know what W is thinking. She had left that message 2 days a go about me getting everything together. Then she didn't try to pick things up yesterday when she had two chances. She came by last night at 7 to take our son to dinner. She didn't ask for the clothes but I sent them out any way. 
Am I over doing my assertiveness. There is plenty more stuff of hers left in the house. I am not going to pack any of it at this point. I don't think I need any further "relationship" communication but I want to keep the lines open. We are still working together on the football stuff so I can still kindle. Carrot and stick? I hate texting and email, so I won't contact her that way. I think this stuff with the clothes was about her asserting control. I can't give her that.
I bought the new locks yesterday. I will think about installing them over the next couple of days. But because she didn't try to get her stuff yesterday that issue seems to be a dead one for the moment.
In a text two days ago she called me by my first name and signed off with hers. She hadn't done that in 7 months. Tea leaves? It would seem she is still hesitant as the texting and behavior hints of her indecision.


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## i_feel_broken

AFEH said:


> No. If I think I should speak out I do. I have not yet seen one "success story" with this AC A/B process. Not one on this forum. If there is show it to me. I challenge you and AC to do that.
> 
> Bob


I don't want to take sides or hijack IANTOO's thread but as it stands at the moment mine is in some respects a success story of this forum. You may not have read my thread. My wife is back and we are working things out and it's going okay. I followed the steps laid out in this forum fairly closely but think I used a stage between plan A and Plan B. A sort of inbetween phase which worked fairly well.

IANTOO, keep strong and look after yourself, i am still following your thread amonst others and hope to read positive news.


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## marilee

Until you and your wife both stop seeing other people, nothing you do is going to have a positive impact on the relationship.

You can't work on a marriage when there are other people involved in it.


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## turnera

It sounds like she's in a whirlwind right now - thoughts all over the place. Just remain static and calm.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Good to hear form you IFB. Usually when there are no posts it means good things are happening. I was going to mention you to BOB. I knew your situation was moving in a positive direction. Can you give us an update on your thread? I would love to hear how it is going. CMF is making halting progress too. I may be stumbling along, but I'm not kicking my W to the curb yet.


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## turnera

Quick T/J for Bob: Bob, I asked people at MB to let me know who was a success using MB and I got some names that you can go over to MB and look up, for starters: Mark1952, lildoggie, right here waiting, and Steadfast & Committed. I know there are tons more, but that's who I've heard from so far.


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## Affaircare

Just a note. Anyone who is a regular on this forum could easily search my posts or Tanelorn's posts, or could remember several folks on this forum who successfully used our methods to save their marriage or to recover personally when their spouse refused to recover. The "successfulness" is not the issue, I don't think, as that has been clearly demonstrated and documented. The confidentiality of people who work with us--even here in semi-public on the forum--is MUCH MORESO the issue. Thus, when faced with acting in an ethical way or parading some names to "prove my point"...I'm picking the ethical behavior. I can't very well "talk the talk" and tell people to do the right thing, if I can't do it myself now, can I?


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## Affaircare

> Strange day. I don't know what W is thinking. She had left that message 2 days a go about me getting everything together. Then she didn't try to pick things up yesterday when she had two chances. She came by last night at 7 to take our son to dinner. She didn't ask for the clothes but I sent them out any way.


Just so you know it's really hard to tell what she's thinking since you know her intimately and we don't...and even YOU are confused!  But my guess is that she's testing limits a little -- testing to see if she could be in control or guilt you, or testing to see if she could still come and go as she pleases. Remember that very often disloyals think of getting their needs met any way they can, so maybe she was checking to see if you're available to be manipulated anymore. :nono: (shrug) Clearly if she actually wanted her things or wanted them packed and moved out, she would have made arrangements before this or taken them now. She didn't. Thus I'd say it was more of a test and not so much really wanting the items. Also, it's conceivable that she's heard of your "dating" and may have been checking to see if she's still welcome or not. Hard to tell. 



> Am I over doing my assertiveness. There is plenty more stuff of hers left in the house. I am not going to pack any of it at this point. I don't think I need any further "relationship" communication but I want to keep the lines open. We are still working together on the football stuff so I can still kindle. Carrot and stick? I hate texting and email, so I won't contact her that way. I think this stuff with the clothes was about her asserting control. I can't give her that.


I do not think you're overdoing it, no. It is not reasonable for her to choose to move out, destroy her husband and family, live elsewhere...and expect to be able to come and go as she pleases. 

Perhaps you can take a tactic like JAR is taking. In word and deed he is not contacting his wife, and he's going through some of the sorrow and withdrawal of detaching from the woman he loves. BUT since he hasn't gone into formal Plan B/No Contact, he would still be willing to reconcile if she made some effort and made the commitment to transparency...and if she were to contact him, he's still available for positive, love kindler type responses. 

I guess this is the one problem I have right now. What if things are starting to go sour with her and the OM? Or since we all know he's kind of a playah--what if he's moved onto his next conquest and she's beginning to realize this isn't a relationship that will lead to long-term, faithful commitment? This is ENTIRELY a "what if" but if by some miracle she DID come around...what happens then? Would the ladies you're dating be okay with you going back to your wife? Would your wife think she had a chance of coming back? I'm just saying that it really complicates things, and this is why over and over I mention it. Obviously you want to feel better, and I would hope that maybe this can give you a little compassion toward how your wife felt! She was hurting so she figured she had to either take anti-D's or "regain her mojo." It's sad but understandable, huh? Any human would feel like that and now you can see she's not "evil" but just wanted to feel better and fell into it. Anyway, to think really clearly and keep things consistent, I strongly suggest considering the options of herbs rather than either meds or dates. LOL . The herbs St. John's Wort, KavaKava, and Valerian can all help take that painful edge off but are healthy and natural. 



> I bought the new locks yesterday. I will think about installing them over the next couple of days. But because she didn't try to get her stuff yesterday that issue seems to be a dead one for the moment.


If her name is on the title or mortgage, you can not change the locks legally--as an owner she has the right to enter her property. If her name is on the title or mortgage, you can legally ask a judge for an order of Exclusive Use, and THEN you can change the locks; she'd still get the benefit of the sale of an asset but would not be able to "come and go" by order of the court. However, if her name isn't on the title or mortgage then you can change whenever you are ready. Honestly--I trust your judgement and timing on this one.



> In a text two days ago she called me by my first name and signed off with hers. She hadn't done that in 7 months. Tea leaves? It would seem she is still hesitant as the texting and behavior hints of her indecision.


I concur with this--it seems she may be dipping her toe into the water to see how warm it is. Let's just observe what happens, don't you think?


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thanks AC. And I don't mind the others "hijacking" my thread with topic(s) dear to my heart. My friend, S, thinks that when the ski season starts that when the fog may start to clear. My son and I will be away every week end enjoying the company of our best friends. That will last 4 or 5 months. She is still the most miserable happy person I know. More and more I think I was just the easiest target to blame for her unhappiness. She never spoke about her unhappiness so there is no way I could address it. Her new man will have to deal with it.


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## Affaircare

And there's also Thanksgiving coming up ... which looks like your son doesn't want to be with her so she won't be with her own child. (It couldn't possibly be due to her own actions so she has to blame you because "you poisoned his mind.") There's also the prospect of not spending Christmas with her son, having to put up with OM's kids when they are unruly and she didn't raise them, haggling over "You take Christmas Eve, I want Christmas Day!" 

It may be dawning on her due to the holidays, that she used to work a lot less, have a lot more, was taken care of, had every holiday with her own child, etc. and now she won't be able to look forward to that traditional Christmas morning in pajamas anymore. So on one hand she tries dipping her toe in--and on the other she hardens her heart even more and blames you for her choices. She "has to" say she's happy, because no one would do all this and be even more miserable than when they started! 

Just a quick, very important note. In order for this to REALLY recover and be a healthy marriage, she will need to realize that she has issues too and start to be personally responsible. That's how you'll be able to tell it's a serious reconciliation: when she starts to say stuff like: "Well I have none of my winter clothes because I chose to move out" or "I'm really sad I won't be with <son> on Thanksgiving, but I guess I'm the one who chose to leave huh?"


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## turnera

Bob, here are some more: trix, antigonerising, live'n'kickin, heremainsfaithful, and kiwij.

fwiw, I'm not advocating following the MB plan to a T. I'm advocating understanding the logic behind it and adapting it for your situation. But the basic tenets of Plan A and Plan B are VERY solid, and based on psychology, so unless your spouse is mentally challenged, it works at least to some level. Gotta be better than where you are when you come here. 

Also, a BIG part of this method is that it helps YOU, the betrayed spouse, get back control over your life, no matter what happens. And that, IMO, is priceless.


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> Bob, here are some more: trix, antigonerising, live'n'kickin, heremainsfaithful, and kiwij.
> 
> fwiw, I'm not advocating following the MB plan to a T. I'm advocating understanding the logic behind it and adapting it for your situation. But the basic tenets of Plan A and Plan B are VERY solid, and based on psychology, so unless your spouse is mentally challenged, it works at least to some level. Gotta be better than where you are when you come here.
> 
> Also, a BIG part of this method is that it helps YOU, the betrayed spouse, get back control over your life, no matter what happens. And that, IMO, is priceless.


Hi Turnera, many thanks for the info and the time and effort involved to get it. I appreciate it. I am rethinking the whole thing, mainly understanding and being very clear about why I have such a downer on the process. That downer of mine persists. It does come down to personal opinion and I’m thinking on starting a new thread outlining my opinions and an alternative way ahead. But until then and indeed if I do perhaps it better to leave it alone for now . That way perhaps I can now remove my involvement from Iamnottheonlyone's thread.

Thanks again.

Bob


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## tilly

AFEH said:


> Hi Turnera, many thanks for the info and the time and effort involved to get it. I appreciate it. I am rethinking the whole thing, mainly understanding and being very clear about why I have such a downer on the process. That downer of mine persists. It does come down to personal opinion and I’m thinking on starting a new thread outlining my opinions and an alternative way ahead. But until then and indeed if I do perhaps it better to leave it alone for now . That way perhaps I can now remove my involvement from Iamnottheonlyone's thread.
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> Bob



I for one would certainly like to read anyones other opinions. :iagree:

I think the more opinions the better, especially on my thread would be good right now!!!!!

I'm sorry IANTOO.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Football game tonight. I am wondering how she will behave. Some contact yesterday as the group planning for Thanksgiving. JAR and I are in a similar place right now. Some contact and no real progress. Sort of pre-Plan B.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Quite the morning. I need your advice. OM is going to the game tonight. I asked her not to but she is doing it anyway. I believe they have been staying at his other house which is out of state. He is driving. They have his car. Sister-in-law is a "traitor". Here is her email. 

"I really wish our communications did not have to erode into contentious , angry conversations but I have heard you loud & clear, so let's be clear about one thing... there was NO misunderstanding the other night. I was in YOUR house & not allowed to take MY clothes. There is NO misunderstanding that. You asked me to respect your boundary... & as you stated, YOUR house is your boundary. I have ALWAYS understood that to be true anyways, no big deal. Kind of ridiculous not to allow me to get my own clothing, but it is & always has been YOUR house. 
(I am still missing some things, not sure where they may be, possibly in the small dresser that you now have your tv on? I also need my skiis, boots, poles, helmet & bag.)
With respect to boundaries, I would like to propose that we only speak to one another about (our son)... his present & future, etc... I find it much easier to communicate about everything else with email or texting. 
I will be attending tonight's game with (OM) & my sister. (Our son) was planning on spending the night with me, but my car is in the garage & I've changed my training schedule to leave early on Sat. morning. Since it will be such a late night for him, I suggested that you pick him up & take him to garage either tonight or in the morning. Whatever is mutually agreeable to you guys is fine with me. I can also pick him up @ school & take him to garage tonight... whatever works for both of you.
As you know, I am also attending the Thanksgiving mtg @ Harvard on Mon. I now have the location of the meeting. I have asked all parents for questions that they can suggest for me, I don't want to forget anything! I have only heard from Annie, & I'm not sure if the rest of you got my email. Could you please send it out again if you have some time? Mainly I have to ask about coffee, hot h2o & the like, but I would feel more confident if I have alot of specifics."

I did have plans.. The OM must be staying with her so she is "dumping" my son. I am glad to have him. But I am going to insist on a schedule. Am I in Plan B by her choice?
All our contact has been only about our son. There has been no other contact. So her suggestion that we only discuss our son is bogus.
I hat the texting and the email. How do I handle the book? I am so ticked off I don't even want to send the Plan B letter. I am feeling no love. CMF and JAR, got any personal tips? How about Land and IFB?
I just want to go up to them at the game and announce their infidelity.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

I just want to go up to them at the game and announce their infidelity.


Um...no you don't. Not really. Would just put you on their level (maybe lower.) Most people likely know anyway. It took me a long time to figure out what I want. Maybe you, as well. Either go plan B with a firm start date, or divorce her. There is a difference between attachment and love. At least for me.


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## Affaircare

IAM~

I'll be blunt. At this time you are highly emotional and this is most likely not the best time to make lifelong decisions. Thus the very first thing I would suggest would be turning off your phone, closing email (for now and maybe for the weekend), and taking some time to cool off. 

Using some logic, let's go over the email and issues one by one: 

Just as a general start, it seems to me that the whole tone of this communication is nothing but to be snarky, be witchy, and provoke a fight or a response out of you. If you choose to respond to it "in kind" you will be dancing the dance that she laid out, and you'll paint yourself to be "the bad guy." Thus she can blame you for whatever is going on, rather than taking personal responsibility for her choices. So my first general comment is that she is goading you into a fight--don't oblige her. 

*1) OM is coming to the game tonight.* You asked her to not have him come, but in reality you can not control them. In fact, if they choose to do so, they can sit in the stands and neck. It would be in EXTREMELY POOR TASTE but you can't stop them. What you can do is control you, your actions, and your choices. 

Now by enforcing your boundary and having her face a consequence of her choice to leave (aka "you can't just waltz into the house and take things), this hurt her. She is responding by hurting you back. What would hurt you? Oh yeah--you asked her not to bring the OM to a game! So she's doing precisely what she knows would hurt you back. Pretty childish, isn't it? 

Having a hissy fit and "making" her not bring the OM would be responding just as childishly back, so I say that rather than controlling HER, you take control of YOU. If she is going to bring her affair partner to the game, you will not be in the snack stand and you will not "pretend everything is okay" in front of the other parents. You will speak to your son ahead of time, let him know that his mom is bringing the OM out in public and it hurts you, and that your choice is to not associate yourself with adultery or condone it by covering it up...so you'll not be in the snack stand and you'll be in the bleachers in section Q far away from where they'll be, so you can focus on HIM and not the affair drama. 

See what I mean? You make up your own boundaries here. What will you accept and allow in your life? Think about NATURAL CONSEQUENCES...not punishment. 

*2) Son was going to go with her tonight--she's asking to change the schedule. * Actually this one doesn't make sense because she says her car is in the garage and she's going to be in training early AM Saturday morning--so after a football game, is she saying she wants you to drive your son to the garage where she picks up her car late at night? That makes no sense! Anyway, the overall problem is "Do I let her just change the schedule? Is that taking advantage of me?"

Okay here's the Hard-a$$ answer: she already barely has your son anyway, and it's not like she's doing 50/50 parenting and holding up her end of the responsibility. Any time she has your son, if a situation arises it is HER job to deal with it and make arrangements...not yours. That's part of the responsibility of being a parent--sometimes it's freaking inconvenient! 

Here's the REAL answer: Her failings as a parent and being unable to be thoughtful or think of others should not be taken out on your son. Trust me 100% when I say that he will be able to see which parent is able to think selflessly and do what's best for him ... if he doesn't see that already. When kids are teens they can see which parent is dependable, cares for them, and makes the effort to provide for them (and I don't mean just financially!)--and which parent is mostly selfish and throws money or gifts at them. So in real life, even though it is her responsibility, I do think it's reasonable for you to put the needs of your son over the need to try to "make" her be a better parent. Here's the newsflash: She is NOT a good parent--and probably won't be. You and your son will probably need to accept that and learn how to muddle through. 

That being said, I say talk to your son about it. Tell him the whole sitch and let him know you had plans, but of course he can stay at home with you. See what he wants to do. Hey for all you know, your SON may want to call his own mother and give her a piece of his mind for ditching him...and that's far more effective than hearing it from you. It is his mom and your job is to teach him how to be honest with her and deal with her in his life. So although it's "within your right" to take the Hard-a$$ approach, I personally vote for thinking of your son and being flexible if that's what he needs from you--and I also vote for including him and teaching him how to deal with a parent who isn't such a good parent. 

*3) She wants you to send an email to the other parent about the Thanksgiving Meeting*. I have to be honest--I don't get this entirely because I'm not in this parent group and I don't understand the traditions within the group. However it does seem to me that if she wants more info/input from the group, that it is HER job to email them, not yours. Thus for this I would simply decline: "Regarding the Thanksgiving Meeting if you'd like to contact the other parents, please feel free to send that email." I don't even think you need to tell her "I'm not available" or "I don't want to" because you don't need to explain yourself. "NO" will suffice.


Finally--regarding:


> Either go plan B with a firm start date, or divorce her. There is a difference between attachment and love.


I could not agree more! I think the firm start date should either be yesterday or make the decision to move forward with divorce. There's no point in deluding yourself that you're in Plan A/Carrot & Stick--so take some time, make a decision, and firmly ACT on that choice.


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## iamnottheonlyone

She just texted me about confirming I would take my son tonight. I texted abck that I would and that I would take him for Chrustmas Eve. She texted back that now I was showiing my true colors. I texted back "You took Thanksgiving on your own why can't I pick Christmas eve. I am a good person, godd husband and father. I have done nothing wrong. I don't deserve to be treated with such meanness. And stop calling our son by his initials. He has a name." Tell me about the book. I don't want any more contact with this woman. It will only get worse. No text. No email. Nothing!! Plan B.
She is just trying to make me the bad guy. I am not falling for it. She is exhibiting the same kind of behavior as before D-day.


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## iamnottheonlyone

She just texted me back. "I don't want this either. Can you cool down? Can we talk tomorrow?"


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## Affaircare

1) Take a minute and turn off the phone and email. Remember that part? You are under no obligation to talk to her right now, and you do have a duty to yourself to live in peace. Take time now to breathe, pray, meditate...whatever. Think of powder skiing in Vail and being at the top of that mountain early in the morning: 










2) Here are some Sample Consequence Letters. This is the letter you send right before going into Plan B/No Contact (not to be confused with No Contact with the Other Person). 

3) Here is the link to the Parenting Notebook. This is an online service so you don't need to get her emails, texts, phone calls or talk to her. You can do it online or if you want you could do an actual notebook, but that may not be practical in your situation.


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## Affaircare

Just to help you see clearly and realistically, I wanted to point out three pretty major fog-banks and show you exactly where they're unrealistic...and a possible reply that would be healthy boundaries but also not stooping to her level. 



> there was NO misunderstanding the other night. I was in YOUR house & not allowed to take MY clothes. There is NO misunderstanding that. You asked me to respect your boundary... & as you stated, YOUR house is your boundary. I have ALWAYS understood that to be true anyways, no big deal. Kind of ridiculous not to allow me to get my own clothing, but it is & always has been YOUR house.


Here she's trying to pull out that old argument that she never felt like the house was hers and that by enforcing your boundary, you are proving that it never was hers. Nope. SHE chose to walk away and live elsewhere, not you. Can you just walk into her house and take things or do you have to arrange to be there when she's there and agree to what can and can not be taken? So see how this is smoke and mirrors, blame shifting, not taking personal responsibility? 

A good reply might be _"Sady it looks like there is a misunderstanding. Our marital home was your home, which you chose to abandon and move into another residence to enable your affair. The fact that you left items in the home you chose to abandon does not give you access to the home you left. I would be happy to have you in the marital home the day that you leave the OM and choose to honor your vow. Since you made the choice to leave our marriage and our home, the consequence of that choice is that you can not come and go as you please."_




> With respect to boundaries, I would like to propose that we only speak to one another about (our son)... his present & future, etc... I find it much easier to communicate about everything else with email or texting.
> 
> _when considered with..._
> 
> I really wish our communications did not have to erode into contentious , angry conversations...


This is her attempt to deflect her actions and her choices onto you. She is allowed to snipe and poke at you, but if you respond with "HEY!" then she says "See? He's got anger issues." 

A good reply might be: _"I agree. I have no desire to be in contact with someone who erodes every communication into blaming someone else for their own choices. I prefer conversation with mature, caring, healthy adults who live a life of peace rather than adultery drama. Email and texting does not work for me, so I would prefer no contact whatsoever. Thanks" _



Finally: 


> I texted abck that I would and that I would take him for Chrustmas Eve. She texted back that *now I was showiing my true colors*. I texted back "You took Thanksgiving on your own why can't I pick Christmas eve. I am a good person, godd husband and father. I have done nothing wrong. I don't deserve to be treated with such meanness. And stop calling our son by his initials. He has a name."


Okay note to self. Do you see what you just did there? That's called "tit for tat" and it's stooping to her level. She is not able to think of others and the consequences of her actions, but you're better than that IAM. Rather than engaging in "You did THIS so I'm doing THAT back..." (which usually erodes into a bitter divorce) I'd suggest always, ALWAYS, *ALWAYS *taking the high road. At the very least you should speak to your son about where he wants to be on which holidays because it is HIS life! He's not some possession you know! And if she acts like a selfish jerk that doesn't then give you license to act like a selfish jerk back. Instead, be the man you want to be: one who does not allow, condone or support "the wrong thing" but also one who realizes that this holiday YOUR SON doesn't get to be with both parents and that's going to kill HIM!!! Think of HIM and put your priority into helping him get through this rather than "tit for tat" with his mother. Okay? Seeing that?


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## cmf

Oh IANTOO, I am so there with you. I had a very emotional Monday and fell back into the drama as well.
Plan B is not so bad once you get the letter out, but you must stick to it , that has been a bit difficult for me. We only communicate by a notebook that we hand off when he sees the kids. My H had a hard time not speaking to me daily and not seeing me at events he attended with our son and about 2 weeks ago broke down and begged to speak to me. He has called off and on since Halloween, but I dont answer and now erase voicemails. When he calls the house to speak to the boys , I do not answer and if he asks to speak to me, I have the kids ask him to write in the notebook. I know it will be hard to not attend your sons sports when she is there, that was very difficult for me, but thankfully his sport will be over soon. I would not go to the game tonight if I were you. Sadly, I think we are in the same boat. I'll share my Plan B letter with you if you want.


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## turnera

Please folllow affaircare's suggestions. They are SPOT ON. And will help you no matter how your marriage turns out. And will help your son avoid unnecessary drama.


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## jar

IAM 

WOW....Just like something my W would send me. Basically twisting things all around into something that is far from the exact truth….

I guess my advice to you is….

If you can stand seeing your wife with the OM go to the game and keep an extreme distance…Personality I wouldn’t be able to go. Imagine what the other parents are going to think when she brings him around.

I would talk to your son and explain the situation the best you can…Ask him how he feels about having the OM at his game…He may decided he is not ok with it and choose to ask his Mom not bring the OM….

I would also talk to him about the holidays as well and ask what he is comfortable doing…

For me I think I would sit this game out or be prepared to excuse yourself if you get to uncomfortable….Tonight might be a good night to hit the gym up or something….I know about a week ago I had my wife on my mind and I needed to do something to get my mind off of things. I stayed up till midnight cleaning the heck out of our kitchen. I felt much better afterwards and was exhausted.

This is a tuff one
Jar


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## turnera

I'm too stubborn for such a thing. I actually enjoy being in such a situation when I KNOW the other person is making a fool of themself. ANYONE who knows your family at that game KNOWS your wife is a cheating wh*re at this stage.

In your position, I would go as the VICTIM, the one everyone is going to feel sorry for. If I had to cross her path with OM, I would just pause, look at them both, look at everyone ELSE around us, and shake my head in shame for THEM, and walk away.

She'll get it.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Turnera,

I LOVE seeing this in my mind!


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## iamnottheonlyone

I was so angry this afternoon. I just couldn't believe she would blow off my son like that and so disrespectful, bringing OM to the game. I was almost over the edge. Steam was coming out of my ears. Seven months of not feeling angry. Then this. I am angry and it is not going away. 
Thank you. I will check out CMF letter. Thanks AC. I have to leave for the mountains early tomorrow. I spoke to my son about no contact with OM. He did not obect.


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## iamnottheonlyone

JAR, I went to the gym for an hour before the game. No help from the endorphins. I had to talk to my friend S and my brother to game perspective. I was over the top. Once at the game I informed a number of parents of the situation. At one point, I did go looking for him. I left shortly after half time.


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## iamnottheonlyone

My son cancelled his sleep over with his mom last night. He never gave me a reason. He clearly didn't want to go. I am going no contact now but on the fense about the letter. I am not steaming mad any more but I am still angry when I think of W. Should I draft the No Contact letter?


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## jar

I think you should


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## cmf

If you still have any desire left to reconcile I would send one.


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## land2634

I would as well, just so you can be sure that everything is out on the table for what it is you're requesting and there is no ambiguity about exactly what it is that is happening. It'll probably also help you to write it down.


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## turnera

The letter is to tell her what you need if she should ever hit rock bottom and wants to come home. It puts you in control. And it gives her YOUR side of the story.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I continue to enjoy the new closet space. My son and I are doing dandy. I am still angry when I think of my wife. I have been very busy with work and my son. It has not allowed me time to draft a No Contact. But I have been no contact. She has texted me and left a voicemail. I deleted them before I read them. I know I need to get the letter out so that I leave the appropriate impression. Maybe tomorrow.


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## turnera

Affaircare can help you draft one.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I continued with no contact through Friday's game. She repeatedly called, texted and emailed. I ignored every message. Deleting them before I checked them. When I got to the game my wife and her sister, along with several other people, were working the concession stand. I made my appearance. I said hi to everyone but my wife. I never even looked at her. I then went into the stands. When she came into the stands I moved to the other end. At half time I went to the concession stand and worked my shift. At the beginning of the 4th quarter, I let everyone else go watch the game and handled the concessions myself.
My wife came down from the stands. She wanted to talk. I told her I did not want to speak with her. I did not look at her. She said I was being childish. I asked her to leave me alone. She said we needed to work together for our son. I told her I didn't need her to help with anything and I would take care of everything. She started to berate me. I told her to leave me alone. I said I had no need to work with her as I have done fine since she abandoned me and our son. I don't know how she got to making the same old accusations about my behavior but she did: I have never supported her and that she was only a paycheck to me. I said those statements were completely false and that I was a good person and a good husband and told her to stop it and just leave me alone. 
After more complaining and me ignoring her and never looking at her she left. She returned a short time later with a changed demeanor. She spoke emotionally but kindly. I looked at her and she was clearly upset/sad. I still ignored her. She asked me politely at the end of the game to work with her. I told her I would email her.
When I arrived home I wrote the "Consequences" letter. I sent it to my friend, S, to review. As W was clearly distressed that I would not speak with her, I think no contact was a positve move for me.
Now I am sitting on the letter.


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## jar

Seems to be having an affect on her....


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## turnera

Look: Are you ready to divorce her if she doesn't do a 180 and become the wife you married?

If so, then write the letter. Why? Because it will explain WHY you are NC, and it will give her a roadmap to TRY to reconcile with you if she so decides, with the specific steps she would have to take. That way, you truly never have to speak to her again because you've already told her what she has to do and, if she chooses not to, why she'll never have contact with you again.

It sets you free AND it provides hope.


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## AFEH

iamnottheonlyone said:


> I continued with no contact through Friday's game. She repeatedly called, texted and emailed. I ignored every message. Deleting them before I checked them. When I got to the game my wife and her sister, along with several other people, were working the concession stand. I made my appearance. I said hi to everyone but my wife. I never even looked at her. I then went into the stands. When she came into the stands I moved to the other end. At half time I went to the concession stand and worked my shift. At the beginning of the 4th quarter, I let everyone else go watch the game and handled the concessions myself.
> My wife came down from the stands. She wanted to talk. I told her I did not want to speak with her. I did not look at her. She said I was being childish. I asked her to leave me alone. She said we needed to work together for our son. I told her I didn't need her to help with anything and I would take care of everything. She started to berate me. I told her to leave me alone. I said I had no need to work with her as I have done fine since she abandoned me and our son. I don't know how she got to making the same old accusations about my behavior but she did: I have never supported her and that she was only a paycheck to me. I said those statements were completely false and that I was a good person and a good husband and told her to stop it and just leave me alone.
> After more complaining and me ignoring her and never looking at her she left. She returned a short time later with a changed demeanor. She spoke emotionally but kindly. I looked at her and she was clearly upset/sad. I still ignored her. She asked me politely at the end of the game to work with her. I told her I would email her.
> When I arrived home I wrote the "Consequences" letter. I sent it to my friend, S, to review. As W was clearly distressed that I would not speak with her, I think no contact was a positve move for me.
> Now I am sitting on the letter.


Iamnottheonlyone, I always thought there’s hope in your case. At last you are doing the right thing. It is called “the 180” take a look at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/18671-180.html and look at the success stories.

But if you write the nc letter it may well be the last nail in the coffin.

Hope this helps

Bob


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## turnera

It could be. Or it could show her that there is only one way for them to be together again, and keep him from falling out of love for her by waiting.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I've had a quiet week. My wife left a voicemail. I checked it. She left info about colleges for my son and said for me to call her if I wanted to talk about anything. She hung out with her boyfriend all week. Only saw our son last night when she took him to dinner. She won't see him for a few more days. I told our son that her behavior is text book. That he shouldn't take any of this personally. I told him that his mother loves him but this affair is like an addiction and she just keeps chasing the high. I also told him that even if she wants him to stay more with her that it will only be one or two nights a week.
I am not sending the letter (yet).


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife has been on vacation all week. She hasn't gone far. But she only saw her/our son one day. I spoke to him about this behavior and explained that this is very typical. His mother loves him but she is like a drug addict caught up with her addiction. We haven't spoken or communicated at all this past week. 
I am going to talk to my son about Thanksgiving dinner with his mom and boyfriend tomorrow. If he isn't comfortable I am going to cancel it. There is no reason to put him thru this except for my wife's selfishness. 
Patience!! I haven't sent the letter.


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## turnera

Have you thought about revisiting options for shaking up their affair?


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## iamnottheonlyone

I think that I have a child who is not agreeable with her situation strengthens my position. Also my overall Plan A attitude with an occasional twist of attitude and confience is my best bet. We are over six months into this. Not once has she mentioned divorce. Am I the safety valve? Does she have doubts about her love and/or his fidelity? Well if she doesn't she should. We will see how this holiday plays out. Wil there be a scene at her sister's house with my son and the OM? Maybe there will be a acene with OM and me at the game. This day should be the high point of my son'r high school football career. The big rivalry game at the university stadium and she is going to bring *hit head and his kids to the game. Is this all about drama and her showing her ability to control the situation (and truly tick me off).


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## notreadytoquit

You should be thankful this Thanksgiving for having the support and love of your son. You are the most patient person I have ever read about. Enjoy your day as much as that is possible and don't think too much about her and all the what ifs. Things will fall in place in your life with or without her.

btw congratulations on having 800 replies on your thread


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## marco100

Sorry I can't devote the time to read all 54 pages of this thread.

But--your wife is openly having an affair with some other guy, this has been going on for several months' time, and you *haven't* filed for divorce yet?

Why on Earth not? (Sorry if you've already explained this earlier on.)

As for Thanksgiving dinner where your wife and her "boyfriend" entertain your son--NO WAY!

If nothing else, don't teach your son to be the same kind of patsy that you are.

His mother is an abuser and you are the victim.

Take your balls back, man.


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## AFEH

marco100 said:


> Sorry I can't devote the time to read all 54 pages of this thread.
> 
> But--your wife is openly having an affair with some other guy, this has been going on for several months' time, and you *haven't* filed for divorce yet?
> 
> Why on Earth not? (Sorry if you've already explained this earlier on.)
> 
> As for Thanksgiving dinner where your wife and her "boyfriend" entertain your son--NO WAY!
> 
> If nothing else, don't teach your son to be the same kind of patsy that you are.
> 
> His mother is an abuser and you are the victim.
> 
> Take your balls back, man.


The game he’s playing so obviously isn’t working. So the only reason to keep on playing his game is because of the enjoyment and rewards he gets from it.

If he didn’t get those rewards and enjoyment, he’d change his game.

Bob


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## Blue Moon

Quoted for truth 



marco100 said:


> Sorry I can't devote the time to read all 54 pages of this thread.
> 
> But--your wife is openly having an affair with some other guy, this has been going on for several months' time, and you *haven't* filed for divorce yet?
> 
> Why on Earth not? (Sorry if you've already explained this earlier on.)
> 
> As for Thanksgiving dinner where your wife and her "boyfriend" entertain your son--NO WAY!
> 
> If nothing else, don't teach your son to be the same kind of patsy that you are.
> 
> His mother is an abuser and you are the victim.
> 
> Take your balls back, man.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blue Moon

AFEH said:


> The game he’s playing so obviously isn’t working. So the only reason to keep on playing his game is because of the enjoyment and rewards he gets from it.
> 
> If he didn’t get those rewards and enjoyment, he’d change his game.
> 
> Bob


It's sort of like women who stay with guys who beat them because they enjoy the attention and sympathy they get from friends and family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone

I haven't posted in a while due to a couple of things. One is holiday madness and the other is that work has been so busy. I am currently in "neutral" with almost no anxiety.
Thanksgiving Day was a mess. I had to work with W at the consession stand. It took a lot of organizing and we were working well together over that week. Then on Thanksgiving morning I received the following email from her boyfriend:

"I’ve told (your wife/my girlfriend) that I wouldn’t mind and would completely understand if she sat with you during the football game Thursday, instead of with me and whichever of my boys will be there. I also understand that you and Julia are likely to be busy and that probably none of this will matter anyway. In any case, it seems like that’s not what she wants to do, and perhaps you no longer have any interest in watching the game with her.



However that all stands or works out I want to tell you that you’re welcome to be around me or any of us for any amount of time you wish. I expect that may be zero as I understand you have your heart and mind set on hating me. If that’s what you really want for yourself, I can live with that. But, I’ve watched my kids suffer enough from the antics of their parents and I think it might be nice for you guys and most especially for Connor, if you all wanted to suspend the hostilities for a day and just enjoy his last game at BLS.



You might ask why I don’t just stay away from the game if I am sincere about any of the above, and I would tell you that I’ve thought hard about that and I am tempted to stay away, but at the end of the day, it’s a public football game and for reasons of my own (reasons that I would be willing to share with you if you really wanted to have a conversation sometime) I’ve decided to go. I do understand your objections, your animosity, and your bad feelings, at least to a point, (although from what I'm given to understand they might be a bit misplaced and overblown, but obviously you can feel however you wish). What I really mean to say is that while I don’t feel like my presence should be a matter of much interest to anyone, including you, I am sincerely sorry for any distress it causes you, and to whatever extent you might want to move past that I'm willing."

What do you folks think of this? I think he is soft as a grape. Shows poor judgment and values. He's had two marriages and has 5 kids. What a role model!! I did not want my child near him.



So I called her and I blew up. I was so angry. Then we got into the discussion about Thanksgicving dinner after the game. My son had told me his was going over my sister-in-laws for a couple hours to see his grandparents and cousins and then coming home for dinner. W now tells me the boyfriend and his kids are going to meet my son there. I told her that wasn't agreed to and that my son would not be spending time with her scumbag boyfriend. She started crying pleading with me and I refused. When I got to the stadium I had bought roses for all the concession stand moms, including W, and gave them out. Shortly there after she came to me and told me her boyfriend would not be at my sister-in-laws while my son was there. However with bofriend at the game I told my in-laws I would not be sitting with them. My sister-in-laws son (18 years old) responded that he didn't approve of any of what had been going on and would sit with me, which he did. WHAT A MAN!
My son had a great game. We took family pictures after the game. He came home a couple hours later and had dinner with several of my family members. 
Later in the week I asked W to drop off some of our ski house stuff she took and leave it in the common area of the building. She did that. However she came onto the house again and took things. I didn't respond.
Son's birhtday was this past Monday. Trying to stay ahead of the curve I planned dinner fo him and his girfriend and anyone else he wanted to bring. W called on Sunday and asked to come along. I agreed but felt uncomfortable. She came and things were friendly. Patriots/Jets game was on. Being big Pats fans we enjoyed the game together. I had also brought her ski equipment for her. She had driven her boyfriend's SUV to dinner calling the SUV"her car". That was trigger for me. She did give me nice hugs at the start and end of dinner.
I did all the Christmas decorating. The house looks normal for my son. He and I talked about this year's Christmas card. I suggested it be a picture of just him and well wishes from the "Family". He will be with me for the holidays as W decided to work. One less problem.


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## cmf

Glad to see an update from you, have been wondering how you were doing.

It sounds like OM needs to be reminded that he is having an affair with your wife, whom you are not even legally separated from. He is almost acting like they are already married and you are a bitter ex-husband. No insight at all on his part. Did you reply to him?


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## iamnottheonlyone

No I didn't. I am still very angry with him. His email seemed to be trying to take the moral high ground. There is nothing nice or rational I could say to him. No written record of my thoughts or attitude towards him. I was tempted to make a speech to him in front of his children. Except for my Thanksgiving Day tirade, I bite my tongue.


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## turnera

I would send his letter on to her family. With this: "It sounds like he's decided he's taking over my spot in your family. Just wondered if that's how you guys feel, too?"


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## cmf

I would tell him that your son will make up his own mind about the man who is having an affair with his mother and that you feel absolutely no need to "co-parent" with your wife's lover. It sounds like the 2 of them are trying to get you ( and your son)to basically be agreeable to it all so everyone else will accept it. He probably senses the conflict your wife is having with it all. Make life uncomfortable for them.


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## Blue Moon

This is becoming even more of a mess. You all seriously need to file divorce to cut out the ambiguity of it all. If you're not her husband anymore then you only have the son to worry about in regards to conversations with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone

No contact with my wife since my son's birthday last week. I checked with him about his schedule and his sleep overs with her. None scheduled. He did say that she wanted him to stay home this weekend and stay with her. He told her no. 
I asked him if he wanted to see if my sister-in-law wanted to come over for Christmas Eve. He said he did. I texted her and did not get an answer. 
The house looks great. I did the whole shabang for Christmas decorations. My son should feel comfortable with things not changing.


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## Affaircare

Maybe it's just my observation, but I think you, as a person, do a lot better the less contact you have with your wife. 

I personally still suggest Plan B/No Contact with your wife, and you and your son carry on and live your lives happily and productively as a family in your home. If she chooses to be elsewhere that is her choice. Your son is certainly within his rights to make his own choices too, and I see no reason why you should force him to do things in which he is not interested or to go places he has no desire to go. Let him choose and as his parent just help him to realize how to disagree with him mom but still treat her with respect. (After all, respect does not equal agree.)

Merry Christmas, IAM


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am feeling pretty good. I can go most days with only occassional thoughts of my wife. I don't need closure or to draw a line in the sand. I have to rely on the natural course of things. I think I have done all the things I can do to accelerate the end of the affair. They should be having to deal with each others personal issues in the real world now. Maybe they are the perfect couple? 
I have grown and learned an awful lot about myself, romance and relationships.


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## Affaircare

I HIGHLY doubt they are the perfect couple. If nothing else, she now has to deal with an angry ex and his five kids, who all want his attention when he's supposed to be giving it to her, and who she did not get to participate in raising so they don't understand her or know how to do things "her way." Furthermore, his pay goes to supporting the ex and the kids, not to helping her live, and she has to do all kinds of things for herself that you used to do for her. So no, I EXTREMELY STRONGLY doubt they are "the perfect couple." Any relationship that has dishonesty as a foundation and builds on those kinds of qualities is FAR from "perfect." 

However, what they might be is equally dysfunctional. She puts responsibility for her happiness on someone else and won't face her own issues. She would rather lose her life, her husband and her son than face herself! She also is too stubborn to admit what she did to contribute to the breakdown, choosing instead to harden her heart and make the fog her new, permanent self. Well...that's her decision to make, and my guess is that he matches her behavior in a symbiotic way. Maybe he believes she's responsible for his feelings...or even in a codependent way believes that HE is responsible for HERS! Rather than taking personal responsibility and figuring out the issues that ended his last marriage, he chose to knowingly have a relationship with a married woman--and that speaks a lot to his character! And if he did it once, chances are good that given similar circumstances (which he won't look at) he'll do it again. Thus they'd make a pair that "get along" because neither one will grow, address their issues, or become more mature--they are permanently stuck in "high school".


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## iamnottheonlyone

Sorry I wasn't posting, but I have been awfully busy. I'll make it chronological but it seems that there is some real stress with the OM. 
Getting ready for Christmas was nearly overwhelming and my job was straight out. I did Christmas like we always did, with my wife's sister and her her husband and their kids over our house on Christmas Eve. We went to mass and I cooked dinner. I bought gifts for everyone. House was beautiful, tree was perfect. I sent Christmas cards out to everyone. The Christmas was like every other one for my son except his mom wasn't there. 
I called her and left a message on her voicemail about what we did and how great the house looked. I told her I missed her and loved her very much. She called back and left a message thanking me for my message.
On Christmas Day I cooked a big brunch for me and my son. We opened gifts. Then we went north to ski country for the week. 
We skiied and hung out with our friends. Dinners and parties. We had a great New Year's Eve party. I texted her at midnight "Happy New Year. I love you the most in the world."
I haven't seen her since Thanksgiving. Tonight we had a meetin at the high school about financial aid. We spoke in the afternoon and agreed to meet at the school. I got there after her. She was seated in the auditorium. She looked great. She was texting. I said, "hi" and sat down beside her. I looked at her phone screen. All I saw was a message from OM. It said, "B*tch". 
In 22 years with her I have never called her that or called her any other insulting names. At first I was upset that she was texting him at all. Then I shook it off. She was not having a friendly conversation. We chatted cordially through the evening. I told her she looked pretty (No response) We kissed on the cheek when she left. Hmmmm...
Patience, patience, patience.


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## Blue Moon

What is your "gameplan" at this point?


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## turnera

How long will your patience go on?


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## Affaircare

It sounds to me like you've gotten your life in order and on a personal note you are not "hung up" on waiting for her to make a decision--just doing your own thing and living your own life well. This puts you in a perfect position. Inevitably the affair will end: either the day the judge signs divorce papers or the day she really "gets it" and actually makes the effort to change and come back. And where you're at now, either way you "win" because YOU have recovered. Either she "gets it" and becomes a whole new, more mature wife...or she'll set you free, you can hold your head up because you honored your vow and took the high road, and YOU will be ready to find and love a new, more mature wife.


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## iamnottheonlyone

W has never mentioned divorce. As we only talk about our son and never relationship stuff, I don't know where her head is at. Last night my son stayed with his mom. Only the 6th time he has spent time with her over the past month. I brought a chnage of clothes to the meeting last night along with mail that was misdirected and all of the Christmas cards that were sent to us. I will talk to her this morning about our son's college applications. I don't look forward to talking with her as I get mildly upset. (I prefer no to talk with her.) She said last night she is working two days on two days off for the rest of the month. We shall see what kind of time she spends with her son.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I ran into an old friend of mine today whose wife works for a different airline than my W. His wife is a flight attendant and also an old friend of my W. My friend said that his W was working a flight back from Europe that had a co-worker of my W on it. They began asking each other about people they knew. My W's name came up. My W's coworker said that my W was very happy in her new relationship. That her and OM bought a house together and she had a littany of complaints aobut me. My friends W came to my defense and ultimately my W's coworker conceded that there are two sides to every story. Surprise!!
My W had told me that OM had bought the house some time ago and that she was renting from him. Months ago I thought about checking the Registry of Deeds but figured OM could not be stupid enough to put her name on a deed. I think he is smart enough to have her sign a lease. But I doubt she is paying rent. Remember that "*itch" comment from last week.
Things are going well otherwise. My son has to get his college applications in this week. Then we have to start working on the financial aid materials. I would just as soon do it my self and leave her out of it.
I have begun to feel sorry for her. She is trying to ruin my reputation with her co-workers (if I ever had one with them). But her's is trashed. I think they are now on very different schedules: he's flying London and she's flying to the islands. Help me or hurt me? 
Should I work with her on the financial aid stuff?


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## jar

Remember your mantra ….patients…. patients …..patients.

Plan A….

It is tough hearing from other people about your spouse and what they are saying… I can relate. I find it interesting your wife isn’t talking divorce or anything.

If you can I would invite your wife over to work on the financial aid and college stuff together as a family. It might make for a nice evening together where you both can connect as a family. Depending on your financial circumstances etc…Is she willing to pay for part of your son’s college tuition?

I think I remember way back on some of your posts about finances or the house mortgage being one of your wife’s love busters. Something about she never felt included in this. Might be a good chance to make a few deposits by including her in the planning of your son’s college.


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## dadda11o

Affaircare said:


> I HIGHLY doubt they are the perfect couple. If nothing else, she now has to deal with an angry ex and his five kids, who all want his attention when he's supposed to be giving it to her, and who she did not get to participate in raising so they don't understand her or know how to do things "her way." Furthermore, his pay goes to supporting the ex and the kids, not to helping her live, and she has to do all kinds of things for herself that you used to do for her. So no, I EXTREMELY STRONGLY doubt they are "the perfect couple." Any relationship that has dishonesty as a foundation and builds on those kinds of qualities is FAR from "perfect."
> 
> However, what they might be is equally dysfunctional. She puts responsibility for her happiness on someone else and won't face her own issues. She would rather lose her life, her husband and her son than face herself! She also is too stubborn to admit what she did to contribute to the breakdown, choosing instead to harden her heart and make the fog her new, permanent self. Well...that's her decision to make, and my guess is that he matches her behavior in a symbiotic way. Maybe he believes she's responsible for his feelings...or even in a codependent way believes that HE is responsible for HERS! Rather than taking personal responsibility and figuring out the issues that ended his last marriage, he chose to knowingly have a relationship with a married woman--and that speaks a lot to his character! And if he did it once, chances are good that given similar circumstances (which he won't look at) he'll do it again. Thus they'd make a pair that "get along" because neither one will grow, address their issues, or become more mature--they are permanently stuck in "high school".


Oh, my goodness! You have just described my (ex-to-be) husband and the nurse who seduced him to a T . . .

iamnottheonlyone-you're not alone. I'm really sorry you have to go through all of this . . . I spoke with the husband of his OW-I really hoped all the publicity and my giving him info to let him know what was rather than what she was letting on might bring them to their good senses. At least I know Affaircare is right-I've prayed for us and them and tried to keep some hope alive...but they are entrenched and none of it makes ANY logical sense. They're either going to learn the hard way or not at all, and that's a pity. Best wishes and don't worry, I'm pretty sure there's not as much excitement going on as your mind might conjure up. Some people will just go into disaster rather than admit they're wrong.


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## Affaircare

> I ran into an old friend of mine today whose wife works for a different airline than my W. His wife is a flight attendant and also an old friend of my W. My friend said that his W was working a flight back from Europe that had a co-worker of my W on it. They began asking each other about people they knew. My W's name came up. My W's coworker said that my W was very happy in her new relationship. That her and OM bought a house together and she had a littany of complaints aobut me. My friends W came to my defense and ultimately my W's coworker conceded that there are two sides to every story. Surprise!!


I'm not surprised one bit. Not even a TEENY bit! I don't mean this mean, but what's she supposed to say, "Wow, I left a good man and I'm miserable. He's making me rent a house from him!" No way. Even if she were miserable, which she may not be, she *HAS* to talk about how "happy" she is, otherwise how can she justify her behavior to herself and others? Know what I mean? Her only option is to talk up the OM and talk about you poorly--even if she's unhappy. Plus, if this is the person she's becoming, she may not be unhappy because in a funky way she's getting what she wants from someone and using them ...and letting them use her. 




> My W had told me that OM had bought the house some time ago and that she was renting from him. Months ago I thought about checking the Registry of Deeds but figured OM could not be stupid enough to put her name on a deed. I think he is smart enough to have her sign a lease. But I doubt she is paying rent.


:rofl: I can only say that if he were a SMART man, would he have left five children and messed around with a married woman?  Yep...'nuff said! :rofl:



> My son has to get his college applications in this week. Then we have to start working on the financial aid materials. I would just as soon do it my self and leave her out of it. Should I work with her on the financial aid stuff?


Well he is her son too, and her financial situation may or may not help him in getting financial aide, so it may be in YOUR SON'S best interest to include his mother's information. What if you called her, said "<son> would like to work on financial aid stuff this weekend, and I would be just fine doing it myself Is that okay with you?" It's reasonable to mention it to her but ask for what you want.



> I have begun to feel sorry for her. She is trying to ruin my reputation with her co-workers (if I ever had one with them). But her's is trashed. I think they are now on very different schedules: he's flying London and she's flying to the islands. Help me or hurt me?


Oh heavens! At this point who knows? If nothing else, she's being strongly reminded of "reality" vs. "fantasy" but with your wife, it does seem to me that she would rather die a horrible death than admit she was wrong or face herself! Thus, your guess is as good as mine. I still stay be upright, live in a way so that you have dignity and can look yourself in the mirror, and then let her figure out what she's going to do. Your side of the street will be clear and her responsibility will be hers.


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## Blue Moon

Any update?


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## Blue Moon

I'm curious, lol...


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## iamnottheonlyone

Its been about three months since I last posted. Ski season was great and life simply went on. No divorce filing, but very little contact with W. We hung out at one of my son's games last week. But her boyfriend called her while I was with her so I went to the otherside of the field.
It was the annivesary of D-day this week. It is school vacation for my son. I expected that W would have some time for him. But she didn't. In celebration of her anniversary of her departure, she and her boyfriend hopped on a plane to Australia. Of course she is always saying how tight money is. I guess if you are saving for a trip to the South Pacific you can't be saving for your son's college too.
I was a little sad when I saw the facebook picture of the two of them holding hands in the first class cabin of the airplane. I just turned on the anger switch on a little to clear my head and things became normal again.
I have come to realize that my W wasn't lazy. But she was and is passive/aggressive. I can see it now. I am doing my best not to be further manipulated. 
There was a time last year when all I did was scramble to try and save my marriage. I see now that she just tried to stear me so that I would become the bad guy. That never happened. In fact, I am a better person then I ever was. JAR has had the same result. If I get another chance with relationship I would want to be long term, I will be a much better communicator. I will not let it just "happen". 
Once I get to JAR's point, the actual divorce, I will certainly be feeling a lot more pain. It is going to be very difficult to fund my son's education alone. At some point I will have to at least file for a legal seperation to protect myself and my son and force her to contribute something.
So for the time being I am emtionally stable and sitting in a fine, neutral place. Life may not be simple right now, but it is much better than a year ago. I thank all of you who helped me get through this and would love to hear from you.


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## turnera

So sad to be your wife...


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## blisswalker

OMG iamnottheonlyone. I've gone through this entire thread and you pretty much did everything to bomb your marriage. At this point if you want your wife back then you need damage control at this point. I will later post the mistakes you made and what you can do. 

The good thing about this thread is that you have a complete time line of what you have gone through. I will comment my opinion on everything. I hope my advice is more helpful then the traditional advice given and allows you to see a better future for yourself. I will post later with my thoughts.


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## blisswalker

> Maybe she is still mostly the woman I loved when I met her? My inattention to her being viewed as lack of love for her, she hardened her heart to protect herself. She said she felt that I merely tolerated her. Could she be testing my love for her?


She is not testing your love for her. She is testing your masculinity. She wants her husband to be a man and tell her off when she is wrong, to lead her, to make decisions for her. To get mad and angry when she does wrong. 



> She asked me to leave the house so she couuld come back. I told her that she could come back but I am not leaving. She started balling her eyes out and screaming at me…….She texted me ten minutes later and said she was sorry and that she will always love me (like a friend?)…….



Please re-read this. You stood up and said you wouldn’t leave. She got mad. You stood your ground on this. She then said she was sorry and loved you. SUCESSS. 

You became a man in this small instance and her crying and *****ing didn’t work. She wants a man, not a boy. Her crazy emotions didn’t cloud you. She could not push your boundaries to the point to get you to leave. This is a good response from her which you need to build. If only you did this with her entire behaviour instead of being a nice guy you would have her now or a better woman. She gave multiple chances to get through the door and you failed virtually all of them.

Every time she tells you she loves you, she is leaving the door open. What you need to do is not walk through it. By not giving in your showing her that you can live without her, that you can find someone else, that you’re a strong man and that your life does not revolve around her. 

The fear of losing her made you give in to what she WANTED when you should have given her what she NEEDED. Give her what she wants and you prove to her that you’re not the man she needs. 



> I'm so sorry that had to happen in that way...I would much rather we sit down...plz continue counselling.. she is good. I will always love you. I'm sorry.
> Now that I read that in the light of day it sounds more like a final good bye.


She is telling you that there is a chance, not with you, but a new you, a better you. But by not standing up to her, doing the things you want, aka being a man, that chance becomes smaller and smaller. Every time you give in, met her, be available, you reduce your chance as you being the opposite of a man and instead a doormat. She does not want a doormat. She will treat a doormat like ****. She will treat a doormat like dirt. She will not care if a doormat is hurt and she will keep a doormat around to reassure herself when things are bad. The doormat is always there for her, to play with and create drama. 



> I am trying to keep my word and my vows...for as long as I can. I have balls but lately they've shunk. As you know power struggles can be a great source of conflict. I like to win arguments. So does my wife. But as we see now there are no winners.


This is the primary reason for the failure of your marriage. You don’t man-up. By letting her win you say to her that you are better than me. Piece of advice in this instances you can’t win, just have a big smile on your face and walk away with your hands in the air like you just don’t care. If you do this you will always win. By doing this your telling her that her words are nothing to you and cant cause any response in you. Let her scream get angry and pissed. You do the opposite, after she will be sad and sorry, but deep down happy that her man stood up to her. 



> No matter how much space she wants she can't have me out of the picture entirely.We have a number of things we will be doing together over the next several weeks. She could choose not to go. Or I could. But I am going to these events. I am going there comfortably whether she likes it or not.



Big mistake. Another reason for the down fail of your marriage. Your constantly available to her, she sees you everywhere or on a regular basis. She treats you like **** and your there. Your basically telling her no matter how bad you treat me I’m there. You need to keep contact to the bare minimum. Avoid her at all costs and get a life of your own without her. There are a number of goods why you should do this.

The one major reason in my opinion is that you need her to miss you. By being there she will never miss you, by letting her know what you are doing where you are, she will never miss you. Essentially in her mind she has not lost you. You’re the doormat that is always there. 

You have been with this woman for years, you are embedded into her mind. Just stay away from her. I guarantee you, once you’re no longer available she will miss the hell out of you. It may take weeks or months, but her mind will wonder. Where you are, what you’re doing, who your with. The fear of loss will begin. 



> Turnera, you said to keep the package (the physical me) in good shape. That has never been an issue. I run, weight lift and do other sports (skiing and golf with my wife). I am very fit. I always dress well and my looks haven't dropped off.



Awesome. You’re fit and healthy. Stay that way. 

Don’t worry about this other guy. You made the mistake by acting like a wuss which made this other guy look good to her. You built him up when it would of naturally of failed. That’s right……their relationship is on a natural path of failure. Why? Because it started off from an affair, from cheating and lying. This is a poor foundation and they both know in each other’s mind that they/she is capable of cheating. When the emotional high and honeymoon stage of their relationship is over the problems will begin. But like most nice guys they enable the women they want into making those poor relationships work. 

Listen carefully. Stop being a nice guy. Be a man and get your wife/woman back in your life. Get what you deserve. I’m here to help. I can tell you exactly what to do and why. No more of the traditional advice which get no results and usually leads further to relationships failing for you. You’re going to get your life back. I’m here to help you get it back. We can start a detailed plan on what you need to do and make your life far better than it is. 
I will go through the rest of the thread later.


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## iamnottheonlyone

BW,
I agree with much of what you have to say. However, I think the traditional advice is more like, "You cheated on me. I will punish you. You will pay for what you did to me. Divorce is around the corner." I am tapping into some anger now to keep a clear head. Does she need me? Well I don't need her. However, I don't appreciate the short shrift she gives her son. I don't know if I could take her back. It did cross my mind to comment on the facebook picture of the two of them on their way to Australia.
I am willing to listen.


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## blisswalker

> In the past 10 days I have learned alot about infidelity by these exchanges. Unfortunately it now appears I was too late for Plan A. I feel my biggest mistake in making Plan A work was that she is out of the house. If I had just waited a day or two once i found out to gain perspective, I would have know better than to ask her to leave.


This is exactly what you should have done but in a way that shames her. Shame is a powerful tool and no doubt you did not use any of it to your advantage. 



> I told her that she needs to know that I am her husband and I would die for her. She couldn't talk. The line was quiet for a minute. I apologized for my strident tone.


Really bad stuff. I will die for you, regards of how bad you treat me, how much you hurt me, how much of skanky **** you become. I even apologise for the way i speak to you. I’m the perfect doormat.



> Most were concerned about the embarassment it could cause her. I asked them to keep it about love. I also asked them to help in three areas: ask her to stop the affair, ask her to move home and ask her to continue marriage counselling not just "therapy".


Telling on her and making them convince her only shows her you can’t handle yourself. Of course you should get support and help, but never get them to do your work, it will always be counterproductive in her eyes.



> Okay. I need some serious advise. We are coming to that second point in our relationship that I have been dreading. The Explorer comes out of the repair shop today. She will have her freedom. She won't need me for any favors. She wanted her space. She has it. She won't need to see my face.


You never gave her the space you should of. As said earlier you should have completely thrown her out the door. No responding to calls, texts, e-mails, ect. You should have let the fear of loss set in for her as it has for you. 



> I texted that I wanted to talk. She called. Angry again. Even angrier when I told her the truck had to be paid for before it could come out of the shop. I am sure she is viewing this as control by me. She said she would call this morning.


You should of given her space. No calling, texting, etc. She was mad simply cause you contacted her, nothing more, everything else was secondary. You should let her handle the truck and all affaires on her own. Just be the ******* and ignore everything, let her find out everything on her own and deal with it without you. By not being there, by not responding, by being a complete ******* and dealing with only your life, she will not be able to accuse you of control. In fact she will be pissed that you haven’t ever tried and will be more drawn into you. 



> She is golfing this morning. I just texted her about counselling this week.


You know she golfs, you text her to get help. You’re just too involved. She has you around while she explores life with this other man. You enabled her to move on. You should have been the one to reverse all of this and make her beg to get you back. 



> Okay. We just met and talked. I stayed rational. She had a melt down. She is furious that I called her mother. She is getting calls and texts from everyone and answering none of them. She says I have only made things worse. I am only thinking of myself.


This was bad. Not the right way to handle your business at all. This is all counterproductive. 



> She is such a good actress. She just called a second ago. My son is in the car with her. She talked to me like I was her best friend.


This is because you’re the doormat. You’re her worst enemy and you’re her best friend. You won’t respond in the correct way, only the way she wants because you’re weak for her. You should have been the man in the relationship from the beginning, screaming at her, shaming her and showing her the consequences of what she done. 



> Should I tell her I love her when we part? Should I still text her that before I go to bed? Or should I give her (real) space, physically and emotionally?


Absolutely stop. Stop enabling her and making her feel everything is all right, it only drives her away further.



> Okay. So I keep my mouth shut. I do not date. (I have been told this by one of my favorite people) And this is the hardest one...I don't tell her I love her? Let me ask this. Do I quit when she moves in with the boyfriend? Do I quit when she files for divorce? If those things don't happen should I hang on?


Quit? Are you a quitter? Because you sound like you do. The most powerful tools to stop a cheater to show a cheater how bad it is……..is to date. But this is the hardest thing to do when someone betrays you as it dents your confidence as a man. If you had dated the moment you found out, she would have been begging for you back. By showing other women are attracted to you and want you, she will realise how good you actually are and that you can easily move on without her. 



> My wife, my son and I went over to the girlfriend's house in one car. My wife sat in the backseat. We all acted normal……. We have never had trouble just talking.


You’re the nice guy who doesn’t want to rock the boat. This just confirms to her she can come back to her old life if the life with the new guy doesn’t work out. 



> she leaned towards me like she expected a kiss. I did not reciprocate. I said good night and that is all I said. Did I do the right thing?


Well the kissing part was right. Everything else was wrong. 



> The problem with Plan A for me is: nothing that I am giving she wants...


You nearly had it. Nothing you were giving was what she needed. 



> I think I am starting to understand. See my focus had been to get her back. But that can only happen once she has no interest in him or him in her. She has little interest in me……. I will let the fire burn for them, so that it can burn out. How long can she keep traveling 300 miles a trip. She was complaining about the cost today….


She has interest in the other man due to you. She will travel half way around the world if you drive her in that direction by being there and supporting her behaviour. The fire won’t burn out with you putting more logs on the fire. 



> When my wife got in from London yesterday she called me. I missed her call. She left a message saying that said: Just checking in. Wondering how your weekend went. Wondering what your plans are for the week. Call me back. I called back. No answer. So that was a weird call. She hasn't had any interest in what I do.


She missed you. And what did you do? Respond to her, instead you should of ignored her completely. Let her wonder about you. 

Ok, you have 50 pages of this. I really dont have the time to go through everything. But i'm sure you get the picture. 

You dont want her? Great! 

But you can have her if you wanted. It will take alot of work. The best thing right now is to stay as far away as possible, no contact period. In the meantime learn to date. There are a number of steps to take to get into this. But right now you need to build your self-confidence. Check mail for message.


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## morituri

blisswalker said:


> *If you had dated the moment you found out, she would have been begging for you back. By showing other women are attracted to you and want you, she will realise how good you actually are and that you can easily move on without her.*


Oh how very true these words are. Listen to them.

After I left my XWW, I started going out with friends, especially female friends with whom I had no desire to be romantically or sexually involved. Well word got back to my XWW and she was livid. Mind you this is from a married woman who had been cheating on her husband (me) with a sexual freak of nature (Donkey D**k) for over a year. She called me a hypocrite, etc., etc., etc. but I simply ignored her phone calls and e-mails. She then turned back to apologizing, sobbing and pleading with me to please come back home to her.

My 180 was genuine and she didn't like it one bit. Tough! she should have thought about that way before she started spreading her legs for Donkey D**k.


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## ahhhmaaaan!

Dude... you haven't gotten a divorce yet? You say that she speaks to her BF while in your presence. I don't know, but it seems you need a cold shower to wake up from YOUR fog. WTF? End it already.


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## blisswalker

> After I left my XWW, I started going out with friends, especially female friends with whom I had no desire to be romantically or sexually involved. Well word got back to my XWW and she was livid. Mind you this is from a married woman who had been cheating on her husband (me) with a sexual freak of nature (Donkey D**k) for over a year. She called me a hypocrite, etc., etc., etc. but I simply ignored her phone calls and e-mails. She then turned back to apologizing, sobbing and pleading with me to please come back home to her.


Yep. This is the typical case. The fear of loss got to her. You were no longer availible to her and that made her crazy. To bad the betrayed dont have the confidence to do this stright away.


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## morituri

blisswalker said:


> Yep. This is the typical case. The fear of loss got to her. You were no longer availible to her and that made her crazy. To bad the betrayed dont have the confidence to do this stright away.


To tell you the truth, I was a basketcase after I discovered the graphic details of her 'adventures with donkey d**k' which were later confirmed by her. 

Fortunately for me I had a very wise friend who had also gone through the ordeal and counseled me with some very solid advice on how to recover. The man was truly a godsend from heaven.

I gained confidence when I acknowledged the death of my marriage. It took a huge weight of my shoulders and allowed me to start planning for a future without her.

Many betrayed spouses fantasize about having a revenge affair to make their cheating spouse feel the devastation they felt. But a much more effective way is to simply divorce him/her and watch the hysterical ordeal he/she goes through. 

The one affair a cheating spouse can't stand is the one you have with yourself.


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## notreadytoquit

morituri said:


> The one affair a cheating spouse can't stand is the one you have with yourself.


You can post more tips on this one anytime


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## morituri

notreadytoquit said:


> You can post more tips on this one anytime


I never thought I would be such a pompous a**:rofl:

I think I'll use it as my new sig:smthumbup:


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## iamnottheonlyone

Got served today. She filed a month ago. She probably hired the lawyer over two months ago. I was just going to come on line and make a note about my W and her trip to Australia. She emailed me yesterday about my son not responding to her emails, texts and facebook posts. She wanted me to get him to contact her. I have done nothing. I have not interfered in their relationship so I am not advancing it.


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## Eli-Zor

Sorry to hear this.

You have been very patient with this and taken a lot of abuse from your wife and the OM 

Does your state allow you to counter file for adultery? As you are the primary carer she should pay you support, if you can find a mean lawyer and evidence she is in a relationship with the owner of the house she stays is you may be able to maximize the amount even if she is paying him rent. 

If adultery is recognized haul the OM into court. It may not affect her now but with her and his name on the records it is there forever. 

Be strong and focus on yourself and fight for your son. I have read in some divorce documents some betrayed spouses have stipulated the children are never to be in contact with the OM. Try it you never know.

Best wishes


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## turnera

Seriously, counter-file if you can and ask for everything.


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## ahhhmaaaan!

If she really wanted to get in touch HER son, maybe she should come down from her immoral cloud and make a true effort to rectify this. I can't believe how delusional some of these cheaters are... MY GOD.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Some of you may know I am a lawyer. So I spent the last couple hours answering the complaint and drafting temporary orders. Now that she has passed through the last door I am not letting her off the hook. If she doesn't start making a fair contribution to my son she will be spending a great deal of money on lawyers. I might even hire one myself and ask the court to make her pay for him/her. 
Blissful had some advice that at one time might have been useful. But taking the tough guy stand with the woman I love was never me. We all all know that "they" like the bad boys. And sooner or later they will pay a price for that affection. I have worked hard to be one of the good guys. I would never trade my integrity to be like the men I despise and often represent. W was never the person I thought she was. W lived a double life. Some day it will all come down on her. It is not a day I wish for anyone. 
Now do I make this as quick and painless as possible? Do I see what she wants and tell her what I need so that I can be prepared? Or do I drag it out and bury her with depositions, pleadings and document requests?
In any case I will be in court next week to get the orders. I don't think there is any light at the end of the tunnell. I have tapped that edgie anger thing to keep my head straight. It keeps the sadness/fear of the unknown away.


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## notreadytoquit

what's your son saying to all this?

I really hope you fnd happiness one day and there is someone out there who will value you for who you are-the good guy


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## iamnottheonlyone

My son said he will stay with me. I think she really wants to be free to be unreasponsible. Does that sound right? She wants to be herself and live life to the fullest. She doesn't want anything holding her back from the possibilities before her. Sounds about right.


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## turnera

Well, in that case, I'd run the gamut of legal steps with her to help her 'pay' for her freedom. 

To help her. 

I'm serious!

Putting her through hell will make her wonderful freedom look like jail, and she'll be spending many a night aching over all her expenses and wondering why she thought this was so special.


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## notreadytoquit

turnera is on a roll  I think you should hire her to be your lawyer


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## iamnottheonlyone

Yeah. Sort of tough love.
Well I was just on facebook and noticed 3 of my (our) female friends "Liked" the picture of my W and her boyfriend sitting on the plane to Australia. I sent one of them a friendly text asking if she really liked the picture considering she took the trip during her son's school vacation week, over Mother's Day and that W had me served today, my son answering the door when the sheriff came by. Was that a little too edgy? I am doing a lung cancer fundraiser with her this weekend. I probably didn't have to do that but it ticked me off seeing that "like". Should I click "like"?


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## Lilyana

I really wish facebook would implement that "dislike button".. or instead of poking people there was a "reach thru the moniter and b*tch slap" option


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## Affaircare

> Some of you may know I am a lawyer.


 NOOOOO! I didn't know that! I always envisioned you as more of a Pierce Brosnan Bond International Man of Mystery! I hope you're more of a Stuart Markowitz type than a Denny Crane type.  



> Now do I make this as quick and painless as possible? Do I see what she wants and tell her what I need so that I can be prepared? Or do I drag it out and bury her with depositions, pleadings and document requests?


IAM, you yourself said it: _"I would never trade my integrity to be like the men I despise and often represent."_ You are healthy, wealthy and handsome with a son of whom you can be proud. If she wants to walk away from you--you are not the loser. 

BUT you also hit the nail on the head when you wrote: _"I think she really wants to be free to be unreasponsible. Does that sound right? She wants to be herself and live life to the fullest. She doesn't want anything holding her back from the possibilities before her."_ In a summary she wants to walk away from her responsibilities--yet society (not you) has decided that when a parent participates in MAKING a child that they then have a duty to contribute to the CARE of that child. Thus in a summary when it comes to "things" "possessions" or "money" if her suggestion is anywhere near splitting it evenly and/or equitably I say let her go and that's the cost of a big ol' life lesson! No item she takes can equal the value of being free from her. *BUT* (and this is an ENORMOUS but) *WHEN IT COMES TO HER RESPONSIBILITY TO YOUR SON I suggest that you be relentless*. You are an adult and able to make choices for yourself and bear your own consequences, but your son (whilst a decent young man) had this THRUST upon him and it is not YOU being demanding or hard-a$$...it is SOCIETY via the courts and judges that says "A parent can not just stop contributing to their child." Allow the courts to work on your behalf and ENFORCE FOR YOU the full measure that your son is due. File for discoveries, do depositions, whatever you have to do to get every single penny your son is due. And do not ever ONCE think twice about doing it ruthlessly either. 

She is completely free to leave you and with her half or some reasonable split. Bye Bye! But she has an obligation to her son and if she will not meet that duty out of maternal caring, then use the full measure of the law to extract it. 

I'm not saying to be a jerk here. Nope. Figure out what your son is due if his parents had stayed together ... or if his mom had not had an affair and then hardened her heart to her vows. Be reasonable about that--what is YOUR SON due. Then do not let her squirm, cry, or rage her way out of it. Let the JUDGE order it from her and garnish. The end. She is free and she will pay the consequence for her choice to abandon her responsibility to her son. 

Finally, regarding: 


> Well I was just on facebook and noticed 3 of my (our) female friends "Liked" the picture of my W and her boyfriend sitting on the plane to Australia. I sent one of them a friendly text asking if she really liked the picture considering she took the trip during her son's school vacation week, over Mother's Day and that W had me served today, my son answering the door when the sheriff came by. Was that a little too edgy? I am doing a lung cancer fundraiser with her this weekend. I probably didn't have to do that but it ticked me off seeing that "like". Should I click "like"?


Let me ask you a question. You know that nice couple you've known for about 15 years--the one you've always liked and thought of as neat people? They look pretty good on the surface...and then one day you discover that she's an alcoholic and he's been cheating on her but they've been keeping up the image. Now suppose HE put up a girl in a bikini on his FB and you were messing around and clicked "like" (cuz what male human DOESN'T like a girl in a bikini?...) and SHE wrote back "How can you like that pic when it's his mistress and he took that picture on our oldest son's birthday?" Wouldn't you feel creeped out a little? 

They are ladies. They either probably know your wife pretty well or knew her. Maybe they "liked" that she looked happy or was on a trip she always wanted to go on. Maybe they "liked" her hair or her swimsuit (as in "That is a good look for you"). Either way it's probably not necessary to send off those texts...it is a bit edgy. And the fact of the matter is that we can't make people "do the right thing" (even if the right thing would ACTUALLY be to comment on the picture "Wow you've really gained weight since you started the affair. You really should consider spending some time with your child over Mother's Day instead of flaunting your flesh and your lover." ) At times like these you'll find out fairly quickly who was a casual acquaintance/social butterfly kind of friend and who is a "stand by you side-to-side to fight the dragon" kind of friend. 

If you're doing a lung cancer fundraiser with that lady this weekend, just send another text saying, "I'm sorry. Had a bad day and let off some steam in your direction. Looking forward to the fundraiser." In the end, it's possible she'll choose to be your wife's friend (and not yours) and that's her choice.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Affaircare, I took your advise. I was feeling a little bit of a bad boy myself. I apologized to my friend.
I have drafted motions for temporary orders which I will mark up for hearing to be heard as soon as I can after she returns from her "honeymoon".


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## Eli-Zor

For your own sanity and control get a tough lawyer, one who know their oats, do not think you can do this yourself, you need the flex to breathe and step back for rational thinking. 

This is not your wife treat her and the OM as thieves and its time for her to pay her dues. When it comes to the divorce be unwavering and ensure you obtain every dime she owes you and your son. Aim high , start with full custody thereafter place restrictions on her time with a formal schedule that excludes the OM or his children from contact with your son. Keep a journal , every time she fails to keep to her obligations make a note and when ready have the lawyer follow up. 

She can afford to play slap as she is not paying for her responsibilities. Be unwavering and smile , do not communicate directly with her , put an intermediary in place one who is on your side and has a head when it comes to the rough times, you are not friends and she had best learn that fast.


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## turnera

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Yeah. Sort of tough love.
> Well I was just on facebook and noticed 3 of my (our) female friends "Liked" the picture of my W and her boyfriend sitting on the plane to Australia. I sent one of them a friendly text asking if she really liked the picture considering she took the trip during her son's school vacation week, over Mother's Day and that W had me served today, my son answering the door when the sheriff came by. Was that a little too edgy? I am doing a lung cancer fundraiser with her this weekend. I probably didn't have to do that but it ticked me off seeing that "like". Should I click "like"?


 I think you should do that to EVERY person who liked that picture.

AND her parents.


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## turnera

I agree with affaircare...to a point. Do what you can for your son, regarding her. 

But I have no problem pointing out truth to people. It's that attitude of niceness and 'none of my business' that makes people think it's ok to cheat nowadays. If I found my lifelong friend cheating, I would give her a thorough reaming, because I'd understand what she's going through and that this is not the real her. If it's never occurred to those friends that they CAN stand up to her, maybe you'd have done them a favor by pointing it out.


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## cmf

IANTOO- I am truly sorry to hear this news.BUT I am also glad you plan on holding her accountable financially and I would strongly recommend having her visitation with your son exclude the OM and his children. By serving papers she is about to get a strong dose of reality- should be intersting to see what she does when things dont go her way. I hope you and your son are holding up ok. Message me if you want to. Hang in there.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I have consulted with a lawyer. I do need an intermediary I will be in position where I can't think straight. I am doing the little things. Money I spend on a lawyer I can't spend on my son. So I will bring in a fighter when we get to where we need one. 
I guess I can gently remind and inform these other people that there is nothing to like about the photo. They didn't write comments. I think that they might have been just trying to acknowledge that they saw the photo without anything further.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

Please know that I am thinking of you and hope that this turn of events puts you on a path of moving on. The holding pattern is, in my opinion, often as exhausting as the events that put all this into motion many months ago. I wish you and your son the best. Great advice given in the past day or so. Stay on the high road.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I think things might have turned out different if I hadn't asked her to make a choice that morning. Then asked her to go. Once she was out of the house I probably should have done the 180. Just should have let her do her thing. I didn't do that and she strung me along. I should have gone to court and got an order. I should have changed the locks and packed her stuff. That would be my advice today if WS leaves.


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## turnera

I hope you will stick around and help others with that advice.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed

IANTOO, please do not beat yourself up for things that are over-and-done with. We all make decisions every day, big and small, with the information we have at the momemt and based on where we are emotionally. Looking back, some of those will turn out to be the right choice, and others not. That is life.

Not one of us get to live life making perfect decisions/choices. Not remotely possible. We cannot predict the future. Just steer your ship the best way possible for you and your son. Every day, do the next right thing and you can hold your head up high. You will be loved again, and I am guessing it will be better than ever

PS-While my H returned to our home, we have mutually decided it is over. So starts the splitting up all over again. Hard on kids, even if they are older.


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## blisswalker

> Got served today. She filed a month ago. She probably hired the lawyer over two months ago. I was just going to come on line and make a note about my W and her trip to Australia. She emailed me yesterday about my son not responding to her emails, texts and facebook posts. She wanted me to get him to contact her. I have done nothing. I have not interfered in their relationship so I am not advancing it.


Just stay away. Just cause she contacted you doesn’t mean your there at her whim. Do not contact her at all. Stay away. If she asks you just state ive been very busy. No emotion, no anger. 



> Blissful had some advice that at one time might have been useful. But taking the tough guy stand with the woman I love was never me. We all all know that "they" like the bad boys.


They don’t like bad boys. Only certain characteristics that bad boys portray. For example confidence and self-esteem. These are good characteristics that you should have, but not the ******* characteristics. 



> Now do I make this as quick and painless as possible? Do I see what she wants and tell her what I need so that I can be prepared? Or do I drag it out and bury her with depositions, pleadings and document requests?


Make this as quick and easy as possible. Just get away asap. There is no gain in prolonging this and making this hard. In fact making this easy shows you have moved on and starting a new life. But of course get what you deserve in terms of finances. 



> Well I was just on facebook and noticed 3 of my (our) female friends "Liked" the picture of my W and her boyfriend sitting on the plane to Australia. I sent one of them a friendly text asking if she really liked the picture considering she took the trip during her son's school vacation week, over Mother's Day and that W had me served today, my son answering the door when the sheriff came by. Was that a little too edgy?



Way to edgy. This type of behaviour usually always get back to the partner, this does not help you. Move on, do not bad mouth her, it won’t help you right now, everyone knows the score now.

Ive sent you mail, check for material to read.


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## turnera

blisswalker said:


> They don’t like bad boys. Only certain characteristics that bad boys portray. For example confidence and self-esteem. These are good characteristics that you should have, but not the ******* characteristics.


 QFT


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## iamnottheonlyone

I texted her about Bin Laden as she had many friends die in the 9/11 attacks. She didn't know. Still in Australia. Complaining our son isn't communicating with her. Says she that is tearing her up. But while she gone her lawyer is stacking stuff in my mailbox. He is asking for admissions on things. He is asking that I say she was the primary care giver and the principle housekeeper. Ain't happening. Son gets the mail every day before I get home so he has seen the stuff coming in. He is such a good kid. Too bad it is likely she will make me sell the house. This is the only home he's known. (When he goes to her house he only brings what he needs for the night.)
He's not a big talker about personal things, so I can only speculate how badly this is hurting him. 
I think this will move along quickly. They may be planning to marry. They just took their honeymoon!!!!


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## Eli-Zor

Get a darn good hardarse lawyer, move at your pace not hers, she is not a friend. Counter file for adultey , drag it out if you have to, fight for your son, stepping back and making this civil benefits her only. Suggest to get your lawyer to take-over the communications and case, keep off the Facebook page and focus on yourself and your son.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone

My W's sister is having an affair. I got the call from my brother-in-law yesterday morning. He was shocked. He discovered it 2 weeks ago. I am sure she got this idea from my W. They had a perfect marriage of 15 years. I had thought over the last 12 months that if only I had treated my W more like he treated his W maybe I could have saved my marriage. WRONG. Its a contagious disease. She didn't want a divorce but he is filing this week. He's is really hurting but he is not waiting around.
As for me, I have more paperwork to do. I am thinking about restructuring my mortgage to a interest only fo the next year. My payment has been mostly equity. So I have been paying money into a savings account for her, her share is $450, and she gives me nothing. Any other suggestions? 
Time to go to court.


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## Eli-Zor

The mortgage change is a good option, drag out the divorce , file for primary custody, starting now she she pays support, do all this within the boundaries of what a court would grant you. She is not your friend her adviser is the OM who has been there before hence my suggestion for a tough lawyer.

Congratulate your wife on her negative influence and destroying two marriages and families, she obviousy lacks any moral fibre. Do your in-laws know about your SIL's affair?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone

I called my father-in-law and left a voice mail. I saw the potential for this kind of behavior in his wife/their mom years ago and it disturbed me greatly. I left a message that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. That he is likely to be next, so get ready. That he ought to talk to his daughter and not support the affair. That he should take his son-in-laws side on this.
I found out last night that my nephew, the son of this couple, berated them and my in-laws for accepting the boyfrined. He was furious with them all and totally rejected the relationship the my W was having. My mother-in-laws told him to mind his business. He told her it was his business and everyoneelses business and the affair should stop. They were all spineless except my nephew. My brother-in-law now recogizes the error of his ways in not stepping up to protect my marriage.


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## Eli-Zor

A fine young man, good for him, perhaps now his father your BIL can start rejecting your wife, no more invitations to dinner.

I do wonder of you drag the divorce out if your wife's affair will suffer, there is going to be a lot of family issues. For starters your BIL , his children and your son should boycott visiting MIL until she actively opposes all the family affairs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ArmyofJuan

iamnottheonlyone said:


> My W's sister is having an affair. I got the call from my brother-in-law yesterday morning. He was shocked. He discovered it 2 weeks ago. I am sure she got this idea from my W. They had a perfect marriage of 15 years. I had thought over the last 12 months that if only I had treated my W more like he treated his W maybe I could have saved my marriage. WRONG. Its a contagious disease. She didn't want a divorce but he is filing this week. He's is really hurting but he is not waiting around.


Because he is taking such a pro-active stand he actually has a good chance as saving his marriage. 

Talk him into posting on here. 

IMO, all the plan A stuff just enabled her affair. She always knew she could go back at any time (safety net) so she wasn't motivated to work on the marriage. You have been an emotional crutch the whole time, helping her continue the affair.

I'm not a fan of the Plan A program for affairs. To me it's like rewarding bad behavior. 

I see no future with your W and the OM. I think all this unintentional enabling has artificially extended the life of the A. I think if you were completely out of the picture and gave her the impression that you are no longer interested in saving the marriage then she may have second thoughts. Resisting her "wants" just made her want it more. Also the fact the OM chased a married woman shows he lacks morals and one day she will see that. Just not today.

When someone ask you for a divorce, nothing takes the wind out of their sails more than agreeing to the divorce. 

If I were in your shoes I would ignore, ignore, ignore. She is no longer your wife. Be cold, businesslike, and unavailable. Let her experience life without you as a safety net and see what losing the best thing that happened to her feels like.

I went through a year and a half dealing with my W's A. She moved in with the OM twice for a few months each time (signed a lease on a house with him). We have been back together for almost 3 years now.

I did Plan A the first time and it looked like it was working but it just caused a false reconciliation. On third time I was through with her, I was dating and PUSHING to get our divorce over with so my then gf would get off my back. My wife basically begged me back but I resisted for a couple of months. She had filed for the divorce but now says she never intended on going through with it, it was just to pacify the OM. She told him she would marry him 2 weeks before filing btw. 

You never know what the future holds.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Sorry I have been gone for a month. I had my temporary orders hearing last week We settled two issues. I pay her alimony of $100 per week for the next 4 years. She pays me $150 per week for child support. If my son moves in with her I am going to be hammered. 
My son graduated from high school 2 days ago. My wife insisted we act as a family. She drove us to the ceremony and we sat side by side. Her (cowardly) parents and (unfaithful) sister came along. I really don't know what her act was all about. She emailed yesterday about bills we agreed to close out. Very businesslike. She was critical of me not speaking to her. I told her I wasn't initiating any conversation. She is the one who wanted nothing to do with me. Why would I talk to her? I am hiring a lawyer to handle the property issues. I believe we are going to have to sell our home. My son loves the place. After graduation he walked in the door and said, "Home sweet home." It stirred my heart.
I think my wife is a golddigger. She used me for all she could and when she finally had to contribute to the family she claimed she was nothing but a paycheck. OM bought a house for her in which she lives rent free. She loves extravagance. I can't offer her the things he can. (He isn't a handsome man so looks have little to do with this relationship.)
Now for more bad news. The infection spreads. My brother has been with the same woman for 25 years. They just sold their house and moved into a new condo on Tuesday. He was then disinvited. She showed him nothing but contempt since then. She tells him he can never finish anything and he is a loser (He is one of Honda's top salesmen.) He is angry. We are talking throughout the day. He doesn't think there is an affair and isn't interested in finding out. She isn't interested in counselling in that there is nothing wrong with her, only him. He is pushing back. I suggested the high road. If it is over he doesn't need to go out becoming a real jerk (Nicest guy you have ever met.).
I am not in love any more. I am finding that dating offers a experience that I had hoped never to experience again. Relationship anxiety for me or for my date when things don't work out. So I have gone through that 10 or 12 times. It sucks, but I am adjusting to it. It seems women in my age category are either still looking for Mr. Perfect or want to get lucky. I know I am being overly broad, but they seem to all be looking for something better all the time.


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## turnera

Don't be discouraged. Do you have hobbies? Volunteer? Church? Places like that should be better places to meet the right kind of woman, not just the desparate ones.


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## brettyboo

I acknowledge that this is a necrobump, but ...

IANTOO - this is an *amazing* thread! I'm so sorry for the pain and anguish you went through, but I'm so glad you had the courage to share your journey in such incredible detail. 

I'm sure anyone who read this would really like to know, and if you're still contactable by this thread - how is life now so many years later??


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## badmemory

Goodness. I just reviewed this old thread.

It's amazing the type of advice this BH received from the posters back in 2010/11 as compared to what he would surely receive now. His wife was actively cheating, she left the home, and he chose to use Dr. Harley's Plan A to win his wife back. Basically a 6 month "pick me" fest and total acceptance of willing to be her plan B. Just about all of the posters supported his strategy. Predictably, it failed miserably. 

Month after month he humiliated and emasculated himself, while his wife lost more and more respect for him. She kept seeing the OM and finally had him served divorce papers. And the worst part of it, his son witnessed all this play out.

I don't want to get in another Plan A debate. But this is a perfect example of why I personally, think it's a load of bull ****.


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## Mr. Nail

Welcome to the forum @brettyboo . You can learn a bit about any poster on the forum by clicking on their name and selecting view public profile. The original poster of this thread was last active on the board on 08-30-2012 at 8:08 PM


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