# "Forced to cheat" spinoff thread - my story



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I don't often talk about it and I hate recalling it, but about 15 years ago I was engaged to be married to someone I had been dating for a good 6 or so years. Her hobby was amateur competitive dancing, and she had a big show that she was training for with her partner. As the event got closer, she began coming home later and later, her mood began changing, etc. One night she didn't come home, so I confronted her, we fought, and I moved out. 

After things settled down, I did talk to her a few times. In the course of those talks, she made the claim that she had "no choice" when she cheated. (I think that's why the other thread was of such interest to me - it hits close to home.) 

I remember talking to people, admitting the state of our relationship wasn't great, but no one forced her to cheat. I was grateful when people would agree with me, because I was still desperately trying to cope with what happened and I couldn't handle much more than that. Much like the original "forced" thread, I would spew venom at anyone that tried to ask me to look deeper, get past the words, and consider her message to me, because if I could keep my focus on her nonsensical "no choice" wording, I could keep sane and keep myself believing that I am not the one responsible for the actual cheating.

Then, one day years later I woke up and something clicked inside. Maybe she wasn't trying to say she had no choice, maybe she was trying to say that she felt like she had no choice. It was my a-ha moment.

With enough time and space between us, I was able to ask the follow up question: She obviously had a choice, why did she feel like she had no choice? Was she really just "saying anything" to "blame-shift"? Or was I partially responsible for this mess in some indirect way?

I thought back to the things she had said to me. Some things were complete crap - all the dancers did it, she couldn't stop him, blah blah blah. However, some things did have merit... she had asked me for years to take an interest in her dancing, she had wanted to not stay home so much, she asked over and over again for more excitement and activity, etc. Nothing groundbreaking but I made many mistakes that people make in their 20s. Looking back, I could see how they would hurt and frustrate her when I did not respond. I knew she wasn't lying about some of those things, she had said them for years.

I started to realize that for every second I focused on the "I had no choice" statement, which was so much of a lightning rod to me for so many years, I was holding myself back. When the cheating occurred, there was the state of the relationship and there was the cheating... but every day after that, the cheating was now PART of the state of the relationship, and to dwell on her words is to be stuck in the past and reliving the cheating over and over again - exactly something I was trying to get away from. I never lost the ability to extrapolate that I am not to blame for her cheating, but I was now able to realize that just because cheating was "crossing the line" for me, I had crossed her line a long time ago in a different way. Suddenly, her talk with me went from being a silly "no choice" BS excuse to some extremely valuable information that, up until this point, I had not heard or considered. I am a better person for being willing to listen.

Anyway, I don't have a big need to hyper-focus on the fact that her cheating was her choice - it's obvious. If people ask, I usually tell them that I was engaged once, but I didn't pay enough attention to her and she cheated, so it was best to go our separate ways. 

I also came to realize that I didn't need a literal refutation of the "no choice" phrase, nor did I need outside validation for my blameless state with regard to the cheating. I could finally give that to myself. It just took a long time.

Anyway, that's what worked for me. Perhaps my way of coping is not for everyone, but maybe hearing my story can help someone else as well.


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## timeforchange (Nov 4, 2012)

Acorn said:


> Then, one day years later I woke up and something clicked inside. Maybe she wasn't trying to say she had no choice, maybe she was trying to say that she *felt like* she had no choice. It was my a-ha moment.
> 
> However, some things did have merit... she had asked me for years to take an interest in her dancing, she had wanted to not stay home so much, she asked over and over again for more excitement and activity, etc. Nothing groundbreaking but I made many mistakes that people make in their 20s. Looking back, I could see how they would hurt and frustrate her when I did not respond. I knew she wasn't lying about some of those things, she had said them for years.
> 
> ...


Acorn,

BIG BIG respects for this. It so refreshing to hear that you've come to realize these things beyond the act itself. Wow I never thought I'd live to see the day when I'd hear this kind of reflection. 

See. About 10 years ago I started an emotional affair with a total stranger which lasted about a month - if that! At the time I'd lost myself and was in total grief to the point of suicide - my mum had died not long before and I was just waiting for my turn albeit I went totally the wrong way about it. This was the end but the problems I felt were there before. Grief just magnified and distorted what was going on for me. 

That said, what I learnt from doing it is that cheating gives permission for the "cheated on" to totally ignore their part in what made the other half so unhappy to begin with. Like I said, your reflections here are truly appreciated and I do agree to give yourself that. You must feel so much more freeness just looking at it in that way.

I think affairs give the "cheated on" a get out of responsibility card because it completely deletes how the "cheater" felt at the time. It also deletes any signs or warnings that were blatantly obvious and spoken off to the partner as a cry for help long before the event that "hey we need to work on us". 

I also think that everyone has their version of what constitutes crossing the line - some more obvious than others of course. What's interesting as you say is what each persons version of that actually is. 

Thank you so much for sharing


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acorn, learning to identify problems in a relationship is a very good thing. Learning from past mistakes, even better. The knowledge you gain will stand you in good stead in any future relationships. This si true wisdom. But you really need to learn the difference between understanding and validation. 
Your GF went from "having no choice", to "believing she had no choice", to you understanding and accepting her choice. How is this helpful to anyone? You learned about your shortcomings, but turn right around and use that knowledge to absolve her from her responsibility. You need to take to heart the expression , "own your sh*t'. Regardless of your failings she had the choice to cheat or not, and nothing you did or did not do MADE her choose to cheat, that choice came from within her mind, and was , to her, an acceptable response to an admittedly bad situation, but in reality was like adding fuel to a fire. You also cannot seem to understand tha cheating does not ONLY happen in bad relationships. Look at some of the other threads here and you will find numerous examples of people who cheated and willingly admit that their partners , DID NOTHING WRONG. They made the choice to cheat for many reasons having nothing to do with their relationships, but were caused by emotional/sexual issues completely independent of them. From drunken ONS's to re-connecting with old flames, to too intimate contact with co-workers, these are just a few examples. Learning to understand YOUR issues is one thing, accepting blame for HERS is quite aniother.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

hmmmm


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Interesting concept built on a slippery foundation

Read the thread: 
Re: Did I go about this all wrong?
by Raised Garden 

particularly post #66 where wife claims she was forced to cheat. 

discuss


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

timeforchange said:


> Acorn,
> 
> BIG BIG respects for this. It so refreshing to hear that you've come to realize these things beyond the act itself. Wow I never thought I'd live to see the day when I'd hear this kind of reflection.
> 
> ...


Spin it anyway you want, but the betrayed partner is NEVER responsible for the wayward partner.
No matter how unhappy the WP is, no matter how miserable they are, they ALWAYS have a choice in what THEY do.
If the BP will not give the WP what they need to fill a void, then either work with the BP to find a solution or end the relationship before cheating.
Cheating doesn't solve the problem at hand, it creates new ones & putting any responsibility on the BP is wrong & blameshifting.


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## timeforchange (Nov 4, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> Spin it anyway you want, but the betrayed partner is NEVER responsible for the wayward partner.
> No matter how unhappy the WP is, no matter how miserable they are, they ALWAYS have a choice in what THEY do.
> If the BP will not give the WP what they need to fill a void, then either work with the BP to find a solution or end the relationship before cheating.
> Cheating doesn't solve the problem at hand, it creates new ones & putting any responsibility on the BP is wrong & blameshifting.


I totally agree with you that the betrayed is not responsible for the wayward partner. I also agree that cheating creates more problems. There lies my point about the act taking away from the problems BEFORE it happened. I can only speak from my experience of it backlash and all. I know full well that cheating brings out a whole load of taking sides without each party understanding what happened because they are now both victims. Only thing is that the one who cheated doesn't matter and like I said what leads up to it does't matter AT ALL. That's it. I'm used to the onslaught. Did it to myself and husband did it to me. Nothing new really.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

timeforchange said:


> Acorn,
> 
> BIG BIG respects for this. It so refreshing to hear that you've come to realize these things beyond the act itself. Wow I never thought I'd live to see the day when I'd hear this kind of reflection.
> 
> Thank you so much for sharing


Thanks for your post. It's been a long time since I've really sat down and forced myself to reflect on what happened and where I am today. It's still very painful in my mind.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Badblood said:


> Your GF went from "having no choice", to "believing she had no choice", to you understanding and accepting her choice. How is this helpful to anyone? You learned about your shortcomings, but turn right around and use that knowledge to absolve her from her responsibility.


It was helpful to me, and I was the one that went through it!

I do not absolve her from anything. I just choose not to focus on it. If you would like to spend some time posting about how it was her fault, you may feel free and you won't be wrong.



> Learning to understand YOUR issues is one thing, accepting blame for HERS is quite aniother.


I do not accept blame for her cheating. I accept responsibility for my shortcomings in the marriage. In other words, I'm trying to own my $*it.  

The whole reason I broke it off with her was to be free of her, but if I spend time each day blaming her and remembering the cheating every day, I don't really feel free of her, so I don't do it.

I am ultimately grateful that she chose to tell me why she cheated (in her mind), even if some of the accusations like "no choice" were laughable, so that I could consider my flaws too. How I respond to that information is the only thing I can control.


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## timeforchange (Nov 4, 2012)

walkonmars said:


> Interesting concept built on a slippery foundation
> 
> Read the thread:
> Re: Did I go about this all wrong?
> ...


Not sure who this was aimed at but just had a look through and get this gist of what happened. Shared my thoughts there too. 



Acorn said:


> Thanks for your post. It's been a long time since I've really sat down and forced myself to reflect on what happened and where I am today. It's still very painful in my mind.


Of course it's gonna hurt to know you were betrayed so badly regardless of how long ago it was. How are you doing in the relationship you have now? Has the realization helped with how you show up in it?


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

walkonmars said:


> Interesting concept built on a slippery foundation
> 
> Read the thread:
> Re: Did I go about this all wrong?
> ...


Like I said in my post, my fiancee gave me some excuses that were just pure crap, and other reasons that had some merit. I sifted through it and took the information I found valuable while leaving the crap behind.

I can't really comment on that post beyond that... I'm just recalling my situation and how I dealt with it.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

I wrote the equivalent of 3 pages in response but it’s probably better to keep it brief.

First, my situation is eerily similar to yours except that, for me, this all happened 9 months ago.

Second, I am totally open to taking criticism from my exes. But I only internalize criticism that is a) tangible or concrete, and b) rendered by someone with credibility. Your fiance argued that you weren’t interested enough in her career. Well, did she ever bother to define “interested” and “enough?” If you take that too seriously you run the risk of smothering the next girl. Likewise, my fiance had tons of nebulous and subjective critiques for me that I should have disregarded… and she later totally contradicted.

And it doesn’t sound like either of our fiances had credibility in the area of long-term relationships, much less marriage. They underestimated the importance of integrity and trust in a mature relationship. They also stayed in these supposedly unfulfilling relationships for the better part of a decade and accepted our marriage proposals? They either had no idea what they wanted ot were just making crap up on the fly.

These aren’t typical breakup situations. And my point from the other thread was this: blame-shifting wayward logic is ridiculous. Why dignify it?


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

Don't agree with any of that. Enabling, and doesn't take in account that someone is an adult who is accountable. 

I don't believe in anything blaming a BS. 

I didn't like one of my girlfriends due to her irrational jealousy. Always accusing me of talking with other chicks, always b!tching at me if I don't call her 3+ times a day. She wouldn't get past her issues. I tried to talk to her, but she'd immediately act like I'm personally acting her and guilty of cheating. She refused to see any kind of reason and that relationship went dead. I could've cheated on her. Didn't. Instead I dumped her ass. 

Theres no excuse, justification, reason, in any manner or form for cheating, period. 

She did have a choice. She felt like she had no choice but to cheat cause she was a selfish woman with little character, period. 

I can say right now with complete confidence. No matter how bad a relationship is, I will never cheat. I would just leave it, and leave it with something called dignity and self respect.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Kasler said:


> Don't agree with any of that. Enabling, and doesn't take in account that someone is an adult who is accountable.
> 
> I don't believe in anything blaming a BS.


I'm not sure why my post conveys anything where I enable her. Enable her to do what? I left her, I know the cheating was her decision, and that's that. She can't hurt me any more and we haven't talked in years. Where is the enabling? I'm genuinely curious - you aren't the first to imply that and I don't understand it.

Do I sound like I'm blaming myself?

What I heard when she said she was forced to cheat because of X, Y, and Z was that, in her mind, X, Y, and Z were important enough to her to choose to cheat. I feel like I have the ability to listen, filter out the crap, and evaluate the real message. It doesn't excuse what she did at all. That's my take anyway.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Going to say the same thing I said in the other thread.

Her decision to cheat is hers alone.

If things you did made her more vulnerable to cheating, it's good that you address them. That doesn't let her off the hook for what she did, but it helps you in future relationship.

I like the way you put it. She has to own her sh!t and you have to own yours.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

Acorn said:


> I'm not sure why my post conveys anything where I enable her. Enable her to do what? I left her, I know the cheating was her decision, and that's that. She can't hurt me any more and we haven't talked in years. Where is the enabling? I'm genuinely curious - you aren't the first to imply that and I don't understand it.
> 
> Do I sound like I'm blaming myself?
> 
> What I heard when she said she was forced to cheat because of X, Y, and Z was that, in her mind, X, Y, and Z were important enough to her to choose to cheat. I feel like I have the ability to listen, filter out the crap, and evaluate the real message. It doesn't excuse what she did at all. That's my take anyway.


You're not blaming yourself, and while you're not excusing it you are indirectly rationalizing her actions with conjecture about her mental state and circumstances. 

It's all bullsh!t. 

If she had a 'line crossed' she should've done more to communicate its necessity than hold silent grudges and have an affair. 

If something's a deal breaker for me and theres little change, I give an ultimatum, and have done so multiple times before. My GF also never liked my smoking, and when she became pregnant she absolutely REFUSED to raise a child in a smoking environment, even if I took it outside. She was prepared to break up with me if I did not end my smoking. I was cig free within 3 weeks post ultimatum with a patch. 

Thats what you do when a line is crossed. 

Discuss change, if not successful, deliver an ultimatum for change and thats unsuccessful than leave the relationship with character if there is no change to be had.

Not open her legs for the first man who comes past.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Your GF went from "having no choice", to "believing she had no choice", to you understanding and accepting her choice. How is this helpful to anyone? You learned about your shortcomings, but turn right around and use that knowledge to absolve her from her responsibility. You need to take to heart the expression , *"own your sh*t'.*


Badblood I mostly agree with your posts. But this... really?
How, where the OP absolved his GF from her responsalibily to cheat? The one in the slipery slope of justifications was his GF, not him.
What I see here is a man really owning his sht!. Which doesn't limit to cheating. Not only that, I asume he learned from it to make his relationship with his new partners better because of it. That's why it's helpful.
I don't get when BSs here own theirs mistakes in the relationship is automaticaly mistaken with sharing the blame for the infidelity. You can't predict lack of integrity, cheating. You expect to be dumped when things doesn't work. You should. Otherwise you will become a cynical individual with no trust in anyone. You can learn to do no harm to the relationship. Just in case. 

This resume his thoughs on this matter.


> Anyway, I don't have a big need to hyper-focus on the fact that her cheating was her choice - it's obvious.


Period.
I spent like 0.0001 seconds taking the blame for my wife's cheating.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acorn said:


> It was helpful to me, and I was the one that went through it!
> 
> I do not absolve her from anything. I just choose not to focus on it. If you would like to spend some time posting about how it was her fault, you may feel free and you won't be wrong.
> 
> ...


Acorn, this sounds very good. the only danger I can see is a reluctance to sepearate the relationship problems from the cheating. They are different issues. the rest of it, I agree with. Once I divorced, it was very hard, for a while to "let go'. My new GF helped with that a whole bunch>


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acabado said:


> Badblood I mostly agree with your posts. But this... really?
> How, where the OP absolved his GF from her responsalibily to cheat? The one in the slipery slope of justifications was his GF, not him.
> What I see here is a man really owning his sht!. Which doesn't limit to cheating. Not only that, I asume he learned from it to make his relationship with his new partners better because of it. That's why it's helpful.
> I don't get when BSs here own theirs mistakes in the relationship is automaticaly mistaken with sharing the blame for the infidelity. You can't predict lack of integrity, cheating. You expect to be dumped when things doesn't work. You should. Otherwise you will become a cynical individual with no trust in anyone. You can learn to do no harm to the relationship. Just in case.
> ...


Acabado, I agree, and in Acorn's case because they broke up, it was the right thing to do to get closure. However, you and I both know many BS's who have bought into the idea that the BS has some partial blame for the affair. Usually it's because they are desperate to R, or because their WS is very good at blame-shifting. I don't want other BS's to fall into that trap.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acorn, you will find that my posts are usually in the form of warnings and cautionary notes. TAM is a pro-marriage website, but I believe that it should always be an INFORMED pro-marriage website.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

In the context of your story, Acorn, here are my views on the whole "forced to...", "felt forced to..." thing....

As complex beings, when in a bad situation, we often wave away the choices that will bring about positive change because they're not quick, easy fixes...they require us to work...on ourselves, our situation, on our lives. Allow me to illustrate.

In my old job, I hit the ground running in an entry-level position, got a nice promotion within a couple of years...then, within another year or so, my duties got to be pretty routine, so I coasted a bit. My department went away and, with a child on the way, rather than pounding the pavement for a new job, I took a demotion with no cut in pay. Within a few months, a smaller promotion. And, over the course of the next year or so, found myself in a job I did we'll at, but didn't like. By that time, though, I'd been with the company for about 6 years. I hated my job, but stuck around, rationalizing that going elsewhere, I'd be losing the seniority, pay and security that came with being established with the company. New boss came in, and we immediately butted heads, so I went from not liking my job to HATING my job. But, I stuck around for the same reasons. I'd often say to myself, "I need to find a new job." But, at most, I'd make a token search on Monster, then go about my life as normal. During the time I started to transition from dislike to hate of my job, my wife was out of work for an extended period, then underemployed in a job she hated, too. So, while I don't recall ever using the exact words, it would be fair to say that I could have claimed that I "felt forced to stay in my job." As I reached the end of year 13 with the company, I found myself slacking off...doing a poor job, bending (and sometimes outright breaking) policies and procedures in doing my job, just to put off work. Basically, I "cheated on my job." And got walked out the door for my performance. Despite how I might have rationalized sticking around when I was unhappy, how I rationalized putting off work that needed to be done but was on a timetable, and might have said I "felt forced" to do what I did for the financial consideration of my family...it was all me. Sure, the company's policies and treatment of employees had deteriorated, but none of that really made me do what I did. No, I just didn't want the inconvenience of looking for another job.

And the same principle applies to cheaters...they don't want the inconvenience of ending the relationship if they're unhappy. And, because doing some heavy lifting to improve their situation isn't attractive or easy, they claim to "feel forced" into cheating.

As I mentioned in my most recent post in the other thread, the state of the relationship and the decision to cheat are related, but any feeling of duress to cheat is a manufactured reaction to justify the option of most convenience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Grayson said:


> In my old job, I hit the ground running in an entry-level position, got a nice promotion within a couple of years...then, within another year or so, my duties got to be pretty routine, so I coasted a bit. My department went away and, with a child on the way, rather than pounding the pavement for a new job, I took a demotion with no cut in pay. Within a few months, a smaller promotion. And, over the course of the next year or so, found myself in a job I did we'll at, but didn't like. By that time, though, I'd been with the company for about 6 years. I hated my job, but stuck around, rationalizing that going elsewhere, I'd be losing the seniority, pay and security that came with being established with the company. New boss came in, and we immediately butted heads, so I went from not liking my job to HATING my job. But, I stuck around for the same reasons. I'd often say to myself, "I need to find a new job." But, at most, I'd make a token search on Monster, then go about my life as normal. During the time I started to transition from dislike to hate of my job, my wife was out of work for an extended period, then underemployed in a job she hated, too. So, while I don't recall ever using the exact words, it would be fair to say that I could have claimed that I "felt forced to stay in my job." As I reached the end of year 13 with the company, I found myself slacking off...doing a poor job, bending (and sometimes outright breaking) policies and procedures in doing my job, just to put off work. Basically, I "cheated on my job." And got walked out the door for my performance. Despite how I might have rationalized sticking around when I was unhappy, how I rationalized putting off work that needed to be done but was on a timetable, and might have said I "felt forced" to do what I did for the financial consideration of my family...it was all me. Sure, the company's policies and treatment of employees had deteriorated, but none of that really made me do what I did. No, I just didn't want the inconvenience of looking for another job.


That's a really great analogy, because I can tell where you are coming from and I can also see where I'd be coming from.

Were I your company president, my first thought would last about a second and would be that you had a lot of growing up to do and that you were never forced to be there. 

My next thought would be wondering why I didn't challenge you more, why I hired a boss that wouldn't get along with you, and why I let this situation play out for thirteen years when neither you or I was truly happy in the arrangement. (Maybe I did some of these things because I wanted you gone - if it was implied one way or the other, I'm not entirely sure.)

Maybe I'm just different. I know many are pleading with me to understand that things go from A to B to C to D, and the movement from C to D is independent from anything else. And I do see where you are coming from.

I just don't see the value in that. I see that we were A and now we are D. I can extrapolate that I messed up step A, maybe we both messed up step B, and you messed up C, but I don't get a lot of value in that. Ultimately the situation is at D and that's where my focus is.

Who knows, maybe that's a screwed up way of looking at it, but it really helped me.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Acorn said:


> Maybe I'm just different. I know many are pleading with me to understand that things go from A to B to C to D, and the movement from C to D is independent from anything else. And I do see where you are coming from.
> 
> I just don't see the value in that. I see that we were A and now we are D. I can extrapolate that I messed up step A, maybe we both messed up step B, and you messed up C, but I don't get a lot of value in that. Ultimately the situation is at D and that's where my focus is.
> 
> Who knows, maybe that's a screwed up way of looking at it, but it really helped me.


Aha! I'll come back to address some of the another specifics later (time's limited at the moment). But, I think we may have a breakthrough here. I think it's a matter of perception of the progression. You're describing what you see as a linear progression...if A then B, if B then C, if C then D, and so on. But, I don't think those of us on a different page than you see it that way. Rather, interpersonal relationships are more like a Choose Your Own Adventure book. "If you're happy with the way things are, turn to page 17. If you're not, turn to page 26." So, you turn to page 26, and are presented with more options. "If things have worked out, turn to page 5. If you're still unhappy, turn to page 28." Then, you get to page 28, and see still more options. "If you STILL want to try to work it out, turn to page 26. If you want to separate or divorce, turn to page 52. If you want to suffer in silence, turn to page 53. If you want to cheat, turn to page 44." A cheater turns to page 44. Some, however, claim that their BS tore out pages 52 and 53, leaving them only page 44. Yet, mysteriously, when you thumb through te book with them, there's 52 and 53 (and all the other pages they might have chosen) intact and big as life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Grayson said:


> Aha! I'll come back to address some of the another specifics later (time's limited at the moment). But, I think we may have a breakthrough here. I think it's a matter of perception of the progression. You're describing what you see as a linear progression...if A then B, if B then C, if C then D, and so on. But, I don't think those of us on a different page than you see it that way. Rather, interpersonal relationships are more like a Choose Your Own Adventure book. "If you're happy with the way things are, turn to page 17. If you're not, turn to page 26." So, you turn to page 26, and are presented with more options. "If things have worked out, turn to page 5. If you're still unhappy, turn to page 28." Then, you get to page 28, and see still more options. "If you STILL want to try to work it out, turn to page 26. If you want to separate or divorce, turn to page 52. If you want to suffer in silence, turn to page 53. If you want to cheat, turn to page 44." A cheater turns to page 44. Some, however, claim that their BS tore out pages 52 and 53, leaving them only page 44. Yet, mysteriously, when you thumb through te book with them, there's 52 and 53 (and all the other pages they might have chosen) intact and big as life.


Let me reframe this back to you to see if I understand the different perspectives as you see them... you are saying:

- My linear style of thinking says: My SO chose page 44. The reason she gave me for page 44 was pure crap. But whatever, I know she picked it for a reason. I see also that she picked 26 and 28 earlier, and both of those indicated unhappiness. Ergo, maybe the reason she made these choices was because she was unhappy. If desired, I can go back to all my page choices and see which ones increased unhappiness - those choices may indirectly be responsible for us getting here.

- Your CYOA style thinking says: My SO chose page 44. She claims that the other pages weren't in the book, but I can see them plain as day right here. So, she's chosen to cheat, and now she's lying to me on top of that about the missing pages. Sure, it's not great that we got to the page where this choice was introduced, but the choice and the lying are so appalling to me that it supersedes anything we've done so far in this book.

Am I understanding what you are saying correctly?


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Not quite.

In the linear model that it seems you're implying, the only way she could get to page 44 is by reading the preceding 43 pages. Page 1 leads to 2, which leads to 3, and, inevitably, to page 44. The narrative requires page 44.

In the CYOA model, it's not necessary - and, in fact, unlikely - to land on all of the first 43 pages. The reader directs the narrative rather than flowing with it.

My example was, by necessity of time, brief, but by way of illustration (of the illustration...lol) I remember from my childhood that I would occasionally read a CYOA book and end up choosing paths where the story was maybe 3 pages, and "I" (that is, the character in the story) died a horrible death.

Oh...and don't ever, EVER try to do a book report on a CYOA book. The teacher isn't going to like it any more than a BS is going to like being cheated on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Grayson said:


> Oh...and don't ever, EVER try to do a book report on a CYOA book. The teacher isn't going to like it any more than a BS is going to like being cheated on.


Ha, I should have tried the book report on the CYOA just to say that I did!

My way of thinking understands that the story might go from page 1 to 12 to 5 to 20 to 24 to 26 to 44. They are choices one or both of us made on the way.

Compared to some, I do seem to consider past choices more than others. It seems very natural to me. If I win a marathon, I may be more willing to credit all those years I ran around back on the farm for the win than others. I have noticed others may attribute all the success in the race to something more immediate like their choice of running shoes for the race.

I don't know that either is wrong, I can only say what comes natural for me.


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## river rat (Jan 20, 2012)

Acorn, when I read your post, it took me a little while to get my head around what you were saying. Rather Zen, in a roundabout way. What I gather from this is that you came to the realization that you participated in the making of a failed relationship and that you were able to grow from that experience. Good for you. You were also able to recognize that she had violated a boundary which you could not tolerate. Good for you. I hope that from your handling of this experience that you have learned that you can trust in yourself to deal with whatever comes to you in the future. That is real trust. You sound young to me. I believe that you have a very abundant life ahead of you.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Acorn said:


> Ha, I should have tried the book report on the CYOA just to say that I did!


I did once.

The words "lead" and "balloon" come to mind.



> My way of thinking understands that the story might go from page 1 to 12 to 5 to 20 to 24 to 26 to 44. They are choices one or both of us made on the way.
> 
> Compared to some, I do seem to consider past choices more than others. It seems very natural to me.


And, I've not seen anyone discount past choices. Likewise, I've never seen anyone discount the state of the marriage (which, of course, both spouses contribute to) in leading the cheating spouse to the point that they choose to cheat. But, as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I guess the other factor is that the choices aren't always as clear in real life as they are in cyoa. Not arguing with your analogy, just adding a shade of meaning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Oh, sure. There's seldom a perfect analogy. Just seemed like (given the topic) a good way to illustrate linear vs. non-linear progression of events.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Grayson said:


> Oh, sure. There's seldom a perfect analogy. Just seemed like (given the topic) a good way to illustrate linear vs. non-linear progression of events.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's a very good analogy and I am not arguing against the notion that cheating is a choice. 

I just think some decisions to cheat are more forgivable than others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> for me, I had crossed her line a long time ago in a different way.


Can you expand on this part ? I don't think you cannot complete any another person 100%. ITo me it is not a good reason. You never took a interest in her dancing but did she take interest in any of your hobbies ? Even if she did, people have different outlooks to life. Everyone has a different interest and motivations in life. That is why you have to consider stuff when getting into relationship. Now, if you can find a common ground in between and can respect other choices, you can stay together or if the core values are different, you split .(Smoking pot, drugs, kids, religion, financials, mongamy(!!) etc). That is what the relations are essentially about. You breakup if you have differences. 

And finally, one needs to take care of your own self and needs. Often we see the WS blaming the BS for not fulfilling her/his needs. A man is all alone. A spouse can help you make so many times better but the need to have your own framework to build your own happiness. You cannot depend on other people to make your life more fulfilling. You cannot make something that is not there better. If you are relying on the other person for you happiness, they need to realize how important that is. This is where the communication part comes in.

P.S Why was badblood banned?


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Badblood got banned?
He's a little rough around the edges but some BS and WS's need to hear the cold hard truth.
That sucks.
I feel he told it the way it is sometimes,though he could have eased up some but he did speak a lot of truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Ok well I am going to write our story down before seeing this new counselor we are scheduled to see Thursday. I'm confused as to whether it is important or not to write down what our relationship was like pre-A because I really do know there is no excuse. I did not HAVE to cheat and I know that but I did. See I also think maybe I should write it down because it will better explain what was going through my head. Not sure what to do. When asked why.. hmm why why why..I was unhappy and wanted happiness. I feel I was going through a mid life crisis but still they are not good reasons. My why is I temorarily didn't give a crap about anyone else but me..Gee now it sounds like I pleading temporary insanity. I just know that I will never do it again. Why do I know that? Because I did it and learned my lesson.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

calvin said:


> Badblood got banned?
> He's a little rough around the edges but some BS and WS's need to hear the cold hard truth.
> That sucks.
> I feel he told it the way it is sometimes,though he could have eased up some but he did speak a lot of truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anyone know why?

Cheaters choose to cheat! There's no two ways about it. When my H was deep in his A fog he said to me ' but we can't help who we fall in love with''! I nearly threw up! I called bull****! My response?
'Yes you can, especially when you're married to someone else, you choose not to act on it, you choose to walk away'. Strangely enough he had no response!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> Ok well I am going to write our story down before seeing this new counselor we are scheduled to see Thursday. I'm confused as to whether it is important or not to write down what our relationship was like pre-A because I really do know there is no excuse. I did not HAVE to cheat and I know that but I did. See I also think maybe I should write it down because it will better explain what was going through my head. Not sure what to do. When asked why.. hmm why why why..I was unhappy and wanted happiness. I feel I was going through a mid life crisis but still they are not good reasons. My why is I temorarily didn't give a crap about anyone else but me..Gee now it sounds like I pleading temporary insanity. I just know that I will never do it again. Why do I know that? Because I did it and learned my lesson.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would write down the pre affair stuff. None of it justifies the affair, but if you are happier the marriage will be happier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I would write down the pre affair stuff. None of it justifies the affair, but if you are happier the marriage will be happier.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for your advice, we are both working on improving ourselves and how we treat eachother. It is very important to us so that we never take eachother for granted 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Acorn, your own experience is your own experience. So I'm not taking anything away from that. In many ways it is similar to my experience. 

In legal parlance, was my treatment of my husband the "proximate cause" of his cheating? The answer, in a court of law, would be a definitive no--I didn't know his affair partner, I would never have countenanced his relationship with her, etc. etc. But there is also a different legal standard (in tort law), the "cause in fact" which uses the "but for" test. So in MY case, in OUR marriage, would my husband have cheated "but for" the way I was treating him and behaving within our marriage? In OUR case, almost surely not.

However, that is NOT the case for many marriages. I think what's tough about our forum is that:

1. marriages where the loyal spouse did contribute on a "but for" basis to the affair don't always want to admit that or to change accordingly; 

BUT ALSO

2. marriages where the loyal spouse did NOT contribute on a "but for" basis are assumed by lay people at large, and sometimes by forum members, to have somehow caused the affair--when they did nothing of the sort.


People tend to favor one "theory" over the other "theory" when the truth is there are TWO different possibilities (plus of course a range between the two extremes).


Regarding the second "kind" of marriage / affair, I'm pulling a quote that daggeredheart just typed on her newest thread, husband claiming it "just happened." This is based on Dr. Glass's research, and one of the reasons why infidelity is counterintuitive and laypeople are often misinformed. Affairs are not all one of a kind with the motivating factors lock step identical--it is more complicated than that:




daggeredheart said:


> I saw this quote from Dr. Shirley Glass in the healing library and it resonates with me.
> 
> Sometimes there is an over-functioning spouse and an under-functioning spouse. One partner takes on a lot of responsibility—and then resents it. The more a person puts energy into something and tries to work on it, the more committed to the relationship that person is. The other partner, who is only semi-involved in the relationship, is freer to get involved in an affair, because they’re not as connected to the marriage. *This is interesting because the popular notion is that the person who has the affair wasn’t getting enough at home. The reality is that they weren’t giving enough at home.*
> 
> Q. How do you handle that? Dr.G. In rebuilding that relationship, more equity has to be created. The issue isn’t what can the betrayed spouse do to make the partner happy—it’s what can the unfaithful spouse do to make their partner happy. In research and in practice, my colleague Tom Wright, Ph.D., and I have observed that when you compare who does more, who is more understanding, who is more romantic, who enjoys sex more—the affair is almost always more equitable than the marriage. Usually, the person was giving more—more time, more attention, more compliments—in the affair than in the marriage. If they can come back and invest in the marriage what they were doing in the affair, then they’ll feel more. There is some research showing that people are more satisfied in equitable relationships. When relationships are not equitable, even the over-benefitted partners are not as satisfied as those in equitable relationships. Certainly the under-benefited partners are not satisfied. Q. You seem to be constantly reversing the conventional wisdom about affairs.


So Acorn, I take it that you don't believe your marriage was along the lines of the one described by Dr. Glass--yours was the "other kind" that most laypeople would subscribe to? As I said, mine was too--but for many other people, that was not their experience, at all, and I don't think they are just kidding themselves, either.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Heard a song on the radio this morning that I've heard many times, but this is the first time in a while, and it made me think of this thread this time.

When Deep Blue Something's "Breakfast at Tiffany's" first came out, I was going through a significant breakup, and my gf and I interpreted the song differently, which should've told me something. But that's not pertinent to this post. What is is a verse that can pretty well be applied to situations like we've been talking about:

"You'll say the world has come between us
Our lives have come between us.
Still, I know you just don't care."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

iheartlife said:


> So Acorn, I take it that you don't believe your marriage was along the lines of the one described by Dr. Glass--yours was the "other kind" that most laypeople would subscribe to? As I said, mine was too--but for many other people, that was not their experience, at all, and I don't think they are just kidding themselves, either.


Yes, I would agree with that. I don't mean to take away from or shout over other's perspectives when I post, so I hope it doesn't come across as that.

I think Dr. Glass' theory seems to indirectly support both theories as you describe them.

In the case where the BS had no "but for", she seems to argue that the WS is pouring efforts in the affair and receiving large efforts from the OM, while the BS is giving efforts and receiving none. So if the WS would instead pour efforts into the BS, the marriage would have the equity and survive, while the OM would wither away feeling the inequity.

In the case where the BS has "but for", I see that the BS is not pouring efforts into the WS, irrespective of what the WS is doing. If the WS has a need for equity in these efforts, and the BS does not step up, the WS will turn to OW so that the equity can be established... WS gives and receives, OW gives and receives, and BS is neither giving or receiving.

I also think it would be reasonable to say there is a third group, where the BS is sending efforts but they are not being received due to a love language difference. A la a workaholic providing a lavish lifestyle for her husband, but never being around or coming to bed.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

I was going to suggest a third option, myself, but perhaps it's a fourth: one that starts off with no "but for" element from the BS, but develops one as the BS finds his/her efforts receiving no response (positive or negative) and just gives up on those efforts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Grayson said:


> I was going to suggest a third option, myself, but perhaps it's a fourth: one that starts off with no "but for" element from the BS, but develops one as the BS finds his/her efforts receiving no response (positive or negative) and just gives up on those efforts.


I can definitely see this one too.


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