# Husbands, Is This The Best Way for Wives to Get Their Needs Met in Marriage?



## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

It seems that when a wife is feeling neglected in her marriage, there are differing schools of though on how she can get back the affection, attention, time, and companionship she is missing from her husband. 

In His Needs, Her Needs, Dr. Harley talks about how complaints are an opportunity in marriage to learn what we can do better to meet our spouse's needs. He says that lovebusters like independent behavior, selfish demands, and criticism destroy the love we have for our spouses and should be addressed head-on. He is a licensed clinical psych with over 30 years experience in saving marriages. He says that MC has a very low success rate, around 17%.

Laura Doyle, a marriage coach, says in her bestselling book The Empowered Wife, that wives can inspire their husbands to meet their needs by focusing entirely on themselves. She has a list of 6 intimacy skills that when a woman practices, she says can singlehandedly turn around almost any situation in marriage (except serial cheating and addiction). Her point is that once we stop trying to control our spouse, even if they are doing things that bother us or hurt us, and start giving them respect, which is like oxygen to men, husbands respond much better to their wives and will strive to do what they can to make their wives happy, including choose to give them their time, affection, attention, and companionship, as well as meet other needs. 

She also says that MC is unhelpful in saving marriages and that many cause more damage to the marriage than help.

Here's an article that goes into a bit more detail on her approach:
It's the Intimacy, Stupid: 6 Steps for Women to Stamp Out Divorce | HuffPost

So what do you think? If your wife is feeling neglected and/or unhappy, do you want her to complain so you know? Or do you agree that if she changes her perspective and behavior, it will go a long way in changing your reaction to her? What are the top ways your wife can show her respect for you? Do you think MC is disrespectful to you, by making you hear all of the things your wife thinks you are doing wrong?


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

As the wife, this is something I do. My change happened because my very amazing gf said to me....you have an amazing husband, he is trying to make you happy but your nitpicking is going to drive him away....she was right. 

We had two small kids a year apart, both working full time, my grandmother living with us. Life was hectic and stressful. I took everything out on him. All my unhappiness and stress. He never was rude or hurtful. He did what he had to do and try to spent less time with me. Things were not good.

Her giving me that advice was a wakeup call I needed. Thank God I took it. It made such a difference in our lives. This was over 15 years ago. I do practice those steps and I must say they work. 

In a way my H also practices this in his way. 
I am going to get this book.


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## KrisAmiss (May 1, 2017)

I'm not a husband, but I like this question & wish someone would answer. But I wonder if guys know?

I think Laura Doyle is onto something. I think it could work either way, gender wise, but perhaps does work best with men - the kill em with kindness method. For the first six years of marriage, I gushed about everything my husband did and we had a great time. Only with the addition of kids/stressful job did it become strained and it got worse & worse. I couldn't get over the resentment to gush anymore and eventually 20+ years later I was ready to divorce, then he was and then poof, suddenly I wasn't. I don't know why exactly. I reckon I love him.

This is my experiment of sorts, to bring the marriage back by acting like the marriage is back. To gush again, to genuinely appreciate all he does. We did 2 MC sessions and I quickly determined that complaining about xyz does absolutely nothing positive. My MC said to not talk about a specific time/situation but to generalize what you're looking for. I did think the MC sympathyzed with my DH in a balanced way, which actually made me see his POV.

I've been looking for fun ways to spark it up but haven't come across many ideas. I did send a simple bitmoji text yesterday ("me" in a cup of tea) and he said it actually made his heart flip a bit that i was so sweet and that he's not doting on me enough. The jury's still out but kindness seems to be catching.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

brooklynAnn said:


> As the wife, this is something I do. My change happened because my very amazing gf said to me....you have an amazing husband, he is trying to make you happy but your nitpicking is going to drive him away....she was right.
> 
> We had two small kids a year apart, both working full time, my grandmother living with us. Life was hectic and stressful. I took everything out on him. All my unhappiness and stress. He never was rude or hurtful. He did what he had to do and try to spent less time with me. Things were not good.
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks for sharing your experience. I must admit, the book is kind of hard to swallow...it goes against what I've been learning from other resources that also make a lot of sense. But I'm not a guy, so what sounds like the right approach to me in marriage may not necessarily be what actually works, as your experience indicates.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I think younger people are much more self focused, needy and in search of instant gratification. It's a culture that undermines marriage and is diametrically at odds with the 6 steps outlined here.

I'm not just singling out women BTW

My kids seem overly polite because they respond the way we were taught. Teachers are surprised when the greet them and say goodbye. Admittedly this is mostly my wife's doing but they're the beneficiaries.

I do worry that they will have difficulties finding a spouse who is willing to follow principles like these. I have a hard time believing that the young women I see in high school, college, and in downtown bars (after work professional places) can bring themselves to gratuitously show respect for men. It seems to run counter to where a lot of young women have ended up in interpreting feminism.

I've got nothing against feminism and truly believe in being independent and self sufficient, but I think these principles are seen as "weak" or too feminine or not comparable with modern women

Maybe I'm wrong. I hope so


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

KrisAmiss said:


> I'm not a husband, but I like this question & wish someone would answer. But I wonder if guys know?
> 
> I think Laura Doyle is onto something. I think it could work either way, gender wise, but perhaps does work best with men - the kill em with kindness method. For the first six years of marriage, I gushed about everything my husband did and we had a great time. Only with the addition of kids/stressful job did it become strained and it got worse & worse. I couldn't get over the resentment to gush anymore and eventually 20+ years later I was ready to divorce, then he was and then poof, suddenly I wasn't. I don't know why exactly. I reckon I love him.
> 
> ...


It is about changing your perspective and a lot of practicing kindness, but the part that really spoke to me was making myself happy by practicing self-care, and that for a man, a Happy wife actually motivates to make them even more happy. And she also says that she's not advocating being a "doormat," instead she encourages women to simply say "I can't" when their husbands make demands, instead of doing it and feeling resentful or arguing about it. 

Kind of life changing to me...

And since parenting issues are a major source of conflict in many marriages, I can see how things changed in yours after kids. I have no interest in controlling another person, but once we had kids, I felt very strongly about certain parenting issues and was not flexible at all, and I know this bothered my husband. I truly didn't know what to do about it. The book gave me ways to stop arguing and instead simply say "I can't" when asked to parent in a way that i don't agree with, while letting him parent in the way he wants at the same time. 

Sounds simple, but for me, it wasn't.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I think younger people are much more self focused, needy and in search of instant gratification. It's a culture that undermines marriage and is diametrically at odds with the 6 steps outlined here.
> 
> I'm not just singling out women BTW
> 
> ...


No, you're absolutely right, and she says this in the book, that the advice she gleaned from those successfully married 15 years or more was very hard for her to adhere to at first, since it is very different from what she was taught about modern womanhood.


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## KrisAmiss (May 1, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Sounds simple, but for me, it wasn't.


Not at all. Parenting is the hardest thing, for so many reasons.

And I do agree that a man likes a happy wife. I resented this also, ironically - like, why can't I ever be in a bad mood? I feel like I put up with his. But things definitely work better when I'm even or happy. I've learned to be a calm presence with my kids. I know emotions can escalate if I don't control my own. Who doesn't like happy? You have to solve your own happy.

I was hanging with my kids and another mom years ago. Her DH showed up from a trip and her face just lit up. She simply said, hi - in such a way with her whole being that screamed she was thrilled he was home. I thought, whoa. I think she was onto something.

I do agree a lot of this advice seems old-fashioned. But it might work.


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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

when I need husband time I just tell him, we need to hang out together. His answer- Okay do you want to do something or just hang out at home. 

I don't beat around the bush, if I need something form him I let him know as he does me too. Communication is key!!!


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Lostme said:


> when I need husband time I just tell him, we need to hang out together. His answer- Okay do you want to do something or just hang out at home.
> 
> I don't beat around the bush, if I need something form him I let him know as he does me too. Communication is key!!!


One issue pointed out in His Needs, Her Needs and also by Laura Doyle is that a husband will often schedule so much in his week that he really doesn't have much room to include dating his wife, making conversation with her, holding her hand or hugging her, etc. Doyle gave the example of how her husband preferred to watch sports on TV every night to spending time with her. If she brought it up, he'd agree, and then go right back to watching sports. If she asked for a dinner date, he'd fall asleep on the couch.

In HNHN, it mentions that wives will often start out making simple requests like you do, but then eventually start getting frustrated, which leads to nagging, resentment, and the perspective that the husband doesn't care, takes her for granted, is lazy, etc.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jessica38 said:


> Wow, thanks for sharing your experience. I must admit, the book is kind of hard to swallow...*it goes against what I've been learning from other resources that also make a lot of sense.* But I'm not a guy, so what sounds like the right approach to me in marriage may not necessarily be what actually works, as your experience indicates.


How do you think it goes against other things you have been learning? I'm assuming that you think what she says is against what MB says. Could you give some examples of how you think it contradicts?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I don't see anything in those 6 points that contradict feminism at all.

Skill #1: Do at Least Three Things a Day for Your Own Pleasure
Skill #2: Relinquish Control of People You Can’t Control
Skill #3: Receive Gifts, Compliments and Help Graciously
Skill #4: Respect The Man You Chose
Skill #5: Express Gratitude Three Times Daily
Skill #6: Strive to be Vulnerable

These are all good things. I would say that if both men and women followed these, we'd see a lot less marriage discord. This is not gender specific at all--IMHO.


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## C3156 (Jun 13, 2012)

An interesting article. having been married for a while, I can say from a male perspective that a couple of the skills can make a world of difference in a guy. I may share that article with my wife.

*Skill #4: Respect The Man You Chose* - Nothing kills a man's desire more quickly than not respecting him. It goes right along with *Skill #2: Relinquish Control of People You Can’t Control*. Practicing of these two skills alone will make a man want to do anything for you. We take a lot of pride in what we do and if it is always met with criticism, it will either piss us off or greatly diminish our self worth. Neither of which is good for a marriage.

*Skill #5: Express Gratitude Three Times Daily *- I take a lot of pride in what I do and when it is not appreciated, it makes me not want to do it anymore. My wife can be a little ungracious, more than likely because she has no idea what I am doing. I am not one to toot my own horn, but it would be nice if every once in a while she would compliment something I have done, especially if it makes her life a little easier. For example, I cook most evenings as she works late. Typically instead of thanks, I will get nitpicked (see skill #2) on what or how I have made dinner. 

*Skill #3: Receive Gifts, Compliments and Help Graciously* - Can't tell you how often this does not happen. If someone does something for you, good manners say you should reciprocate. A sure way to ensure your husband stops doing something is to ignore what he does or nitpick it. So he doesn't do it the way you would do it, but it got done, it works, and you didn't have to do it. A little thanks goes a long way. For instance, I like to compliment my wife on what she is wearing because I think she is put together well. A typical response is along the lines of, "I'm to fat and look horrible." Perhaps she liked the compliment, but the response makes me not want to say anything again.

All in all, I think practicing these skills would help a woman in her marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lostme said:


> when I need husband time I just tell him, we need to hang out together. His answer- Okay do you want to do something or just hang out at home.
> 
> I don't beat around the bush, if I need something form him I let him know as he does me too. Communication is key!!!


Do you think this agrees with or contradicts any of the 6 points? Could you explain?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> I don't see anything in those 6 points that contradict feminism at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's my point - YOU don't see how it conflicts and I don't see how it conflicts - but my interactions, voyeuristic people watching, and personal anecdotal experience tells me this is lost on generations who have been brought up in a man-bashing culture. Mind you I am no victim and am amused at all the hapless sitcom dads... but the message that men aren't to be "bowed down to" seems to override common courtesy and respect


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> How do you think it goes against other things you have been learning? I'm assuming that you think what she says is against what MB says. Could you give some examples of how you think it contradicts?


Dr. Harley says that complaining in marriage is a good thing, that it gives the spouse an opportunity to fix what is wrong. He says that often, the wife is the one doing the complaining. 

Laura Doyle says that complaints are criticism to men, and that criticizing your husband is a major reason why they stop wanting to meet our needs.

Dr. Harley says that in marriage, spouses should come to enthusiastic agreement on everything they do.

Doyle says that women should practice self-care and that if their husband asks them to do something that interferes with that, to simply say "I can't," instead of arguing about it or trying to come to an agreement on it. She also says to keep things on your own paper. If your husband is doing something you don't like, it's on him. Instead of trying to come to an agreement with him on it, ask yourself instead "what do I want and how do I feel?" If you don't want him to golf every Sat, tell him you'd "love it if he spent Saturdays with you." If he doesn't, that's on him. If you ask yourself what you want and you don't want to sit at home all day Sat, then don't. Plan something else instead that makes you happy.

Dr. Harley says that it's easier for one spouse to change their habits than for the other to change how they feel about those habits. 

Doyle says stay on your own paper instead of trying to change your spouse. Only do as much as you are willing around the house, etc., then stop. Don't take on his responsibilities if it doesn't make you happy. Just don't nag, criticize, or try to get him to do it. She says that stopping these things and focusing on what he DOES do will change his response to you. And only doing as much as you are willing to prevent feeling resentful.


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## Dannip (Jun 13, 2017)

Hubby here. 

The answer is yes. The article is correct. It falls short of deeper analysis as why this is so. 

My further response may just meet the same kind of response that wives felt when they tried it - before the saw the results and obvious benefits. 

Single moms, dads (today, culturally celebrated) broken homes no role models and all the other items listed in the article are symptoms of the problem, not root cause. 

Men and women are not equal in their roles. They are equals as people. 

Men are men. Except for outliers, men have built civilization. They build the bridges, ships, roads, buildings, railroads. They move mountains. They create commerce, fight wars.... Women don't. 

Without a woman though, absolutely none of what men do is even remotely possible. Men would be useless. Women enable men. They motivate, care for, raise families which in turn raise nations. Men cannot do this, women cannot do this. Together, both do. And very well. Just look around. 

Over the past 50 to 80 years, that culture is slowing being broken down. Family matters. Women's independence movements IMO have hastened this breakdown. Generations are being born without seeing this. They see today as normal. Once family break downs, so will culture and nations. 

Again, it's women who have the power to change this, not men. The indoctrination in the west is pretty strong to keep things going in the wrong direction. 

Men and women are not equals in roles. Never have been, never will. Not the way that matters. The women's 'independence' movement proves this with its own existence. It proves it with the failures stated in the article. The indoctrination and culture in the west has shifted. 

Without women in their roles, men will fail in theirs.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

@Dannip, I assume you mean that men and women are equally important, just in different roles? 

I don't want this to turn into an anti-feminism thread so please let's not take it there. I simply want to understand that men have different needs than women and I do appreciate your reply stating that in fact, reaching a man with this knowledge, using our femininity, can go a long way in having a happy marriage.


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## Dannip (Jun 13, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> @Dannip, I assume you mean that men and women are equally important, just in different roles?
> 
> I don't want this to turn into an anti-feminism thread so please let's not take it there. I simply want to understand that men have different needs than women and I do appreciate your reply stating that in fact, reaching a man with this knowledge, using our femininity, can go a long way in having a happy marriage.


I totally agree. I can also be wrong about this. Just taking a 20,000 foot look at what's wrong with guys actually. 

Totally equal. Absolutely totally equal. Sorry. Did not mean anything otherwise. My wife would kick my ass.

My wife is very feminine. We're doing well. Women have a ton of power over the relationship. I understand women respond to their man. But women control how he will behave for her to respond to.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

The biggest thing that we practice is to NEVER nit-pick or be critical. That is death on a cracker. 

We have been around way too many couples where one or the other would literally spend the entire evening being hyper critical of their spouse. It makes other guests highly uncomfortable, and, it leads, all to often to divorce court. My bf is in such a marriage. He has, to my knowledge, been unfaithful at least 3 times. His wife has caught him all times that I am aware. They rug-sweep it, and I believe that one day she will turf him, when he least expects or is able to cope with it. Her criticism of him ranges from his personal appearance, to his earning capabilities, to his abilities as a homeowner, etc. etc.

I could not be in a marriage where everything one does is criticized, and I could not take my frustrations out on my spouse by being serially unfaithful. The entire thing makes very little sense, and as far as I am concerned as a friend, I tend to just turn off when the BOTH come to us for marital advice. My first and only advice for her: SHUT THE F**K UP! for him: Damn it! KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS FOR GOD'S SAKE!.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

We strongly believe that you should never criticize your S in public and virtually always take your S's side

You can air your grievances in private.

As @Taxman says it does no one any good to make a display of that


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## KrisAmiss (May 1, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> She also says to keep things on your own paper. If your husband is doing something you don't like, it's on him. Instead of trying to come to an agreement with him on it, ask yourself instead "what do I want and how do I feel?" If you don't want him to golf every Sat, tell him you'd "love it if he spent Saturdays with you." If he doesn't, that's on him. If you ask yourself what you want and you don't want to sit at home all day Sat, then don't. Plan something else instead that makes you happy.


This reminded me of my son saying, you hate me. (He's depressed, with other issues.) My social worker cousin said to respond, I love you. Never, I don't hate you. You want to take the negative out of it.

I certainly want to take the negative out of my marriage.

I think the discussion on men & women is valid to an extent. But let's not forget how most of the world lives, where women are not valued. I agree the message can get distorted and living it for me has been confusing at times. I would not blame feminism for the rise in divorce or the breakdown in society. There are plenty of men not playing their part either.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jessica38 said:


> Dr. Harley says that complaining in marriage is a good thing, that it gives the spouse an opportunity to fix what is wrong. He says that often, the wife is the one doing the complaining.


There are different degrees of complaining. I rather doubt he supports anyone complaining constantly. And I think that’s what Doyle is talking about. I don’t think that she means to say that woman should never talk to their spouse about their needs and if they are unhappy in the marriage, or talk to their husband about a problem in a productive manner.

I think she’s talking about women who nitpick their husbands with constant complaints about everything.


Jessica38 said:


> Laura Doyle says that complaints are criticism to men, and that criticizing your husband is a major reason why they stop wanting to meet our needs.


I agree that complaints can come off as criticism. And that is not only to men. Women very often take complaints as unwanted criticism as well. I was married to a guy who complained about everything I did, constantly. It led to me not wanting to be around him. If I could not do anything right, why would I want to be with him? Shoot, why would he want to be with me? (son’s father here)

Harley would call that kind of constant complaining a Love Buster. Love busting is not an effective way to handle unmet needs.

I don’t think that Doyle is saying that a woman should never talk about her needs and if her needs are not being met. I think she’s talking about women who constantly complain and nitpick. There is a difference between expressing a need in a constructive manner and constantly picking at your SO/spouse. HUGE different.


Jessica38 said:


> Dr. Harley says that in marriage, spouses should come to enthusiastic agreement on everything they do.


There is nothing in that article that disagrees with this. Not that I see anyway.


Jessica38 said:


> Doyle says that women should practice self-care and that if their husband asks them to do something that interferes with that, to simply say "I can't," instead of arguing about it or trying to come to an agreement on it. She also says to keep things on your own paper. If your husband is doing something you don't like, it's on him. Instead of trying to come to an agreement with him on it, ask yourself instead "what do I want and how do I feel?" If you don't want him to golf every Sat, tell him you'd "love it if he spent Saturdays with you." If he doesn't, that's on him. If you ask yourself what you want and you don't want to sit at home all day Sat, then don't. Plan something else instead that makes you happy.


I don’t think that Harley would disagree with this. Remember that with MB, it says that a couple should spend about 15 hours a week together in quality time. After that, each person should be able to engage in some activities of their own; like hobbies, time with friends, etc.
What is described here would be a woman trying to unreasonably control her husband. He has the right to some activities on his own. She should be mature enough to find things to do on her own some as well. Trying to control one’s spouse to the point of denying them some time on a hobby is a Love Buster.


Jessica38 said:


> Dr. Harley says that it's easier for one spouse to change their habits than for the other to change how they feel about those habits.


He said that? Do you have link to him saying that? I disagree that one is harder than the other. Both are very hard. Even if he did say that, there must be some balance here. He has a need to do some activity like golfing. She has a need for him to be with her 24/7. Does her need trump his need? NOPE. Each of them see the other as love busting. Her needs and love busting criteria are no more important than his.

Normally I would say that their needs are equally valid. But in this case, hers is not. Having him spend all his time with her is an unreasonable need. Anytime someone has an unreasonable need, they must fix their own neediness.

The policy of joint agreement does not mean that he must sit home indefinitely until such day that she might agree to him golfing. That’s her controlling him; unless she has an awfully good reason for it. 


Jessica38 said:


> Doyle says stay on your own paper instead of trying to change your spouse. Only do as much as you are willing around the house, etc., then stop. Don't take on his responsibilities if it doesn't make you happy. Just don't nag, criticize, or try to get him to do it. She says that stopping these things and focusing on what he DOES do will change his response to you. And only doing as much as you are willing to prevent feeling resentful.


Does Doyle ever say to not say anything at all about your needs? I did not see that. Complaining is not stating one’s needs. Complaining is a form of nagging. Constant complaining is a love buster.

I agree with both Doyle and Harley as I see both approaches working together. Both will work in different situations. But neither will work all the time.

Using the above example, both MB and Doyle’s approaches will not work when the man is unreasonable and has no intent to ever do any housework. Some men who do not do housework, don’t do it because they feel that it’s no their responsibility at all. It would not matter if she followed MB or Doyle. He’s just going to not do housework.

The way MB talks about this is that this type of guy is love busting big time and eventually his wife will lose her love for him and he is very likely to dump his lazy ass.

The way Doyle talks about it, she should not complain. He’s either going to start doing house work or not. And if he does not do take his share of the responsibility, then she owns her part. So now she has two choices: Accept it or divorce him.

In my case, I used both approaches (though I’d not read Doyle but I did do what she suggests). I ended up divorcing him and this is one of the main reasons. (this was my step kid’s father).

What would have been the purpose of me constantly complaining? I told him what my needs and love busters were ala MB. He blew it off. I did what Doyle suggests. He loved it because his life was easy. And he continued to blow off his responsibility.

Back to my point. I don’t see MB and Doyle as being completely different. I think that in her own way, Doyle is talking about ways for women to stop love busting and meet their husband’s need for things like Admiration.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I definitely agree the MC is a waste of time and money, I've been saying that the entire time I've been here. I've been through it and can testify that it doesn't work.

As far as wanting to hear complaints it's all about the way it's done. If you are demanded to change your ways, you're going to much less likely to want to do it. If it's phrased as a suggestion and not a demand or an ultimatum it will be much more successful. At this point I'm much more conditioned to hearing demands and ultimatums so I don't listen half the time anymore. It's not worth it.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Hmmmmm I don't do housework. Good thing my w follows Doyle I guess 


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jb02157 said:


> I definitely agree the MC is a waste of time and money, I've been saying that the entire time I've been here. I've been through it and can testify that it doesn't work.
> 
> As far as wanting to hear complaints it's all about the way it's done. If you are demanded to change your ways, you're going to much less likely to want to do it. If it's phrased as a suggestion and not a demand or an ultimatum it will be much more successful. At this point I'm much more conditioned to hearing demands and ultimatums so I don't listen half the time anymore. It's not worth it.


Thank you for this post- this is what Doyle says in her book, that husbands are much less willing to make changes when they hear it as a demand. 

As for MC not working, she even goes so far as to say it can cause more damage to the marriage.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Hmmmmm I don't do housework. Good thing my w follows Doyle I guess
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ha! Doyle gives many examples in the book though of husbands wanting to do more around the house once their wives stop complaining to them about it, or trying to take control of how it is done.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

@EleGirl:

"Take it from a psychologist who has tried to help many others with problems just like yours: It's easier to change your husband's eating habits than it is to change your reaction to them. Unless you want to be perpetually irritated with your husband, and feel emotionally withdrawn, try what I suggest."

Annoying Habits #1

This is one example under "Annoying Habits" but he makes this same point about all lovebusters- that it is easier for the spouse to stop doing whatever it is that is bothering the other than it is for the spouse who is bothered to change their feelings. He makes this point frequently on his radio show and in His Needs, Her Needs, that it is easier for a spouse to lose weight to meet their partner's need for attractiveness than it is for them to change the way they feel about their spouse being overweight, for example. He even recommends a daily checklist of ways a husband can express the affection to his wife in a way that she needs, rather than try to change her need for daily affection.

He also has this to say about complaints, which is VERY different from Doyle's approach:

"In this study, newlyweds who divorced within 6 years were compared with those who remained married during those years. It was found that the divorced couples tended not to respond to each other's complaints as quickly as those who remained married. These divorced couples ignored each other's complaints until they became intensely negative. Those who remained married, on the other hand, went to work addressing each other's complaints soon after they were mentioned, not giving the complaint a chance to build up.

My experience with couples agrees with the results of this study. In successful marriages, spouses expect to change to accommodate each other's needs, so when a spouse registers a complaint, it's a signal for action. In failed marriages, on the other hand, spouses expect to be accepted as they are, without change. A complaint is interpreted as an unwillingness to love unconditionally, a failure of the complaining spouse. So instead of adjusting to the complaint, the defense is offered, "if you really loved me, you would not try to change me. You would let me continue to do whatever it is I'm doing."

Doyle advises women to let their husbands keep doing what they are doing without complaining about it. Instead, she says to do what you like doing for yourself, and to simply let them know how much you'd "love it if they would XYZ," instead of complaining.

And Doyle definitely has a differing view on how to resolve issues in marriage:

"So instead of telling my husband what to do, I tried the concept of duct tape. Every time I wanted to chime in about what he should do or when he should do it, I reminded myself to slap on the tape and keep my thoughts to myself."

Her advice is to simply request what you would "love" and leave it at that, while maintaining your own self-care and not taking on any of his responsibilities, with the premise that if you focus on the positive, he will be much more inspired to do more of what you would "love." 

Confessions Of A Former Control Freak | Laura Doyle

This reads vastly different to me than Dr. Harley's Policy of Joint Agreement, where you never do anything without enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse. With the POJA, you would discuss who cleans what and when, or whether or not to hire a cleaning service, to come to an agreement.

And I totally get your point about how neither approach (MB or Doyle) would work with a husband who is not willing to do housework (or anything else you request, for that matter), but the thing is- it HAS worked for many of the women she coaches using her "6 Intimacy Skills." That's the crazy part- guys who would literally walk around a cooling unit, for example, thousands of times, ignoring their wife's request to please get it done, finally started doing these things when applying these skills, which go far beyond asking in a nicer way. 

She talks about her own husband who was motivated to do a lot of things after she started taking the advice she gives, from staining decks to taking her out to dinner, to coming home early to spend time with her.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Jessica38 said:


> Ha! Doyle gives many examples in the book though of husbands wanting to do more around the house once their wives stop complaining to them about it, or trying to take control of how it is done.




My w is in charge of the house - you're right she totally controls what and how - but not in a mean way - but I am stuck fixing everything that breaks, all actual maintenance, etc.

She keeps busy because she "kind of" enjoys it. But it's s pretty fair division of labor when you factor in work differences too

Personally I think my w is well suited to operational tasks whereas I am more a long term project guy. Different skills.

One more rule for women: "When asking a guy to perform a task around the house, there is no need to keep reminding him every 6 months"



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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

TheTruthHurts said:


> One more rule for women: "When asking a guy to perform a task around the house, there is no need to keep reminding him every 6 months"
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice. Today's been a good day for chuckles around here.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Hmmmmm I don't do housework. Good thing my w follows Doyle I guess


Doyle does not say that women should do all the housework.

Why don't you do any housework? Is your wife a SAHM/W? Are you the sole breadwinner?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheTruthHurts said:


> My w is in charge of the house - you're right she totally controls what and how - but not in a mean way - but I am stuck fixing everything that breaks, all actual maintenance, etc.
> 
> She keeps busy because she "kind of" enjoys it. But it's s pretty fair division of labor when you factor in work differences too
> 
> ...


Since she is still married to you, I figured it was something setup like this. It makes sense and it works for you.

My situation was very different. I was the sole breadwinner for a family of 5 (him, me and son son and his 2 children). I also did 100% of everything else.. housework, child care, yard work, etc. He spent almost every waking hour on his computer playing games and surfing the web... well he did get up to go to the bathroom and to sleep at night. But that was about it.

So in my situation, it was more than reasonable for me to expect him to do housework and child care.

Every marriage is different. One set of rules for all marriages does not work.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think it's important to note that Dr. Harley does encourage people to "complain" about problems in the marriage to their spouse. The trick, though - and his entire program is based around this so he obviously thinks it's important - is that you have to "complain" _without using any Lovebusters_. So, your complaints cannot contain any selfish demands, any disrespect, any angry outbursts, any independent behavior, any dishonesty, or any annoying habits. If you're not allowed to employ any of those tactics, it really becomes pretty hard to be a nagging ***** - as both nagging and being a ***** would be impossible. Instead, what you're left with is having to find ways to express yourself in a clear, loving, respectful manner that allows for the possibility, even the eventuality, that your spouse might just not do whatever it is you're asking or complaining about. And you have to be okay with that. Your partner is entirely free to meet your needs, or not, at his or her choosing. The consequences of adamantly or repeatedy choosing not to meet them might be an eventual divorce, but you cannot control another person and _make_ them love you as you need to be loved. You're welcome to keep raising the issue, but it can't be done in a manner that employs Lovebusters. That's one of the reasons people are encouraged to work on eliminating Lovebusters first, so that it becomes possible to have a _constructive conversation _with your partner about whatever your complaint happens to be. 

As for the Policy of Joint Agreement, again, it must be attained without employing any of the aforementioned Lovebusters. And it's not POJA if both partners aren't in enthusiastic agreement about the solution to the problem. If you want your husband to stay home with you on Saturdays but he wants to play golf with his buddies on Saturdays, the answer is not that one of you gets to win and the other loses. It's that you keep discussing the issue - in a loving, respectful, clear, manner - until you two figure out a solution that makes _both_ of you _enthusiastically happy_. 

Honestly, I don't really see how any of that - or the remainder of Marriage Builders, which is meant to function as a system rather than in bits and pieces applied in isolation - is contradictory to Ms. Doyle's concepts. Don't do things that make your partner not like/love you, do things that meet their needs, learn to be a happy person in yourself so that you have happiness to share with your spouse.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

I think it is fair to say that no one loves a control freak. And anyone, male or female, who is a control freak would do well to check their behavior, and learn that it really isn't fair to try and take over someone else's life -- and if they do, all they will accomplish is generating resentment and a desire to flee. 

But not all complaining or asking for things or being in a bad mood is the same as "control freak". And it equally isn't fair to suggest that people should simply shove all of their emotions and thoughts to the side. Sometimes we need to air these negative things, so that our partners actually have a clue what's going on with us.

So the right response depends on the circumstances.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

wild jade said:


> I think it is fair to say that no one loves a control freak. And anyone, male or female, who is a control freak would do well to check their behavior, and learn that it really isn't fair to try and take over someone else's life -- and if they do, all they will accomplish is generating resentment and a desire to flee.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ironically, just the process of venting can be very helpful to emotional people - mostly women in the case of people I know. So I understand what you're saying.

Unfortunately, for most of the men I know, venting is the START of the process, not a process in and of itself.

You must be certain that your SO understands that you are venting and not just blaming and asking for action. Otherwise there is a tendency for men to hear "problem" and focus on "solution" as a way of helping and being a good support. I STILL am amazed when I hear women CLEARLY stating problem after problem, and other women saying "supportive stuff" with absolutely no context that seems to address the problems, and then BOOM the conversation is over and everyone feels good! Except I am left thinking - wait - how can it be better when all the problems you just complained about aren't even remotely addressed???

So I see and I know but I don't understand. And I'm way ahead of many men because I believe this incredible, unbelievable truth. It's like going to church.








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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Maybe the REAL answer is for women to provide a sheet of acceptable answers. If it's not on the list, don't say it. And instructions on exactly WHEN to follow the list:

"That must be hard. "

"How does that make you feel?"

"Oh, I'm so sorry "

"You're so strong to have to deal with that!"

... please add your own so we can help 


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## straightshooter (Dec 27, 2015)

Very interesting> Not much mention about how you go about meeting your husbands needs while making sure he meets yours. 

Does that count for anything.?? Or is that just something that if it happens its ok but if not hubby just deals with it.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Jessica38 said:


> Ha! Doyle gives many examples in the book though of husbands wanting to do more around the house once their wives stop complaining to them about it, or trying to take control of how it is done.


I agree with the article you linked as well as your quote above.

Complaining is a very negative experience for me. But there are positive ways to discussing something. Women tend to have different and higher standards when it comes to housekeeping, while men tend not to notice as soon that something needs to be done. There's nothing wrong with having a positive conversation about coming to agreement on housekeeping.

I'd always liked cutting the grass. But it was frequently met with some kind of complaint about how it was done. The direction, when I did it, how short or long I left it, how I trimmed the edges, etc. Well pretty soon I dreaded cutting the grass. I'd put it off, and the lawn would get shaggy. Then she started cutting it because I hadn't done it when she wanted it done, and she'd complain or act *****y towards me because she'd had to cut the grass.

My sense of pride in the yard was shot. My desire to do anything in the yard was gone.

Did it really matter which direction I'd cut the grass? Did anyone care the grass was cut 1/2" shorter or longer? Was this something really worth her getting upset about and complaining about?

Every time I took her out to a restaurant she would complain about something. Her mom, her aunt, and her grandmother all did the same thing, so this was a behavior she'd learned growing up. I didn't see this behavior before we were married. Anyhow, after about a year I just stopped trying to take her out for a nice meal. If she wasn't going to appreciate my efforts (and my money since I was working while she was in graduate school), and if she wasn't going to enjoy the meal, why bother?

There are things I agree with Harley on, too. The principle of joint agreement is a good one when it comes to important things.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

@Jessica38, you should read "Dance of Intimacy." It's written by the same woman who wrote "Dance of Anger"
It's about teaching women to take control of the things they strive for in an intimate relationship and to relinquish the frustration over things they cannot control.
Seems poignant to this discussion topic and may offer some additional insight apart from Dr. Hartley.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think there are several things to consider. 

Its important to make sure that your partner knows what you want. People aren't psychic and what may seem obvious to you may not be at all obvious to your partner. "Letting them know" is not the same as complaining or nagging - it doesn't have to be hostile or negative. 

Nagging is an attempt to get someone do to something by repeatedly asking them - they do it in order to make you stop. It may be effective but its likely to result in negative feelings. It creates a parent / child relationship: "clean your room", rather than an equal relationship between lovers.

Something else that I think is very harmful is "keeping score". If there is some trivial thing you partner didn't do (like turn out the lights or replace the toilet paper roll), then telling them "you forgot to XYZ", also creates hostility. If it just takes a minute, just do it - even if it is *their job*. As long as things are overall balanced, I think complaining about trivial stuff just weakens any requests on big issues. 

Keeping score is negative in other ways as well. It means constantly criticizing your partner in order to be "ahead" in the game. They can either put up with the criticism, or criticize in return. Lose / lose situation. 



So, what to do if your partner doesn't do what you want? There may be no answer - if you are with someone who is fundamentally selfish you man not ever change that.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

straightshooter said:


> Very interesting> Not much mention about how you go about meeting your husbands needs while making sure he meets yours.
> 
> 
> 
> Does that count for anything.?? Or is that just something that if it happens its ok but if not hubby just deals with it.




Hmmmmm did you read the title of the thread? I don't think it counts for anything on this particular thread but you're welcome to start a new one.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

To me, the word "complain" implies a negative. Nagging is serial complaining. If a wife has to nag, perhaps she should ask herself why he is reluctant to do the thing she wants.

It could be he is a lazy slug.

But it could be he is receiving the message as a negative. I agree with Doyle that _complaints_ are received by men as a negative statement about his competence. If the man is generally competent, works at his job, does the typical man jobs around the house, well maybe he isn't an incompetent lazy slug. So there must be a reason he is resistant to doing that thing the way you are telling him to do it.

The present day behavior is likely a symptom of learned behaviors due to past experiences.

Though I've only read the one blog article by Doyle, I think she is advocating for positive rewards in behavioral modification. When a person is frequently criticized about how or when they do things, they will dread doing anything. When they receive positive comments, they have a positive attitude towards doing things.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Historically women have had different roles from men for a variety of reasons, but I think the majority of those have now gone away. Birth control and and a change in technology that de-emphesizes the value of physical strength mean that there is not much difference in society between women and men. 

Women are now designing buildings, flying airplanes, leading research projects etc. etc. The numbers aren't yet equal everywhere but I don't see any reason that as the historical effects wear off they will become equal. 

Culture has changed, but I don't see it as broken down. We have twice as large a pool of skilled workers to draw from. 

With social positions becoming equal we will likely see more symmetric personal relationships. 

What is not clear is how many personality differences between men and women are innate, and how many are caused by social pressure. 




Dannip said:


> Hubby here.
> 
> The answer is yes. The article is correct. It falls short of deeper analysis as why this is so.
> 
> ...


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## Dannip (Jun 13, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Historically women have had different roles from men for a variety of reasons, but I think the majority of those have now gone away. Birth control and and a change in technology that de-emphesizes the value of physical strength mean that there is not much difference in society between women and men.
> 
> Women are now designing buildings, flying airplanes, leading research projects etc. etc. The numbers aren't yet equal everywhere but I don't see any reason that as the historical effects wear off they will become equal.
> 
> ...


I think we are in agreement. Where women today are treated as property, that society is living in a third world state. Where roles are well defined you have balance and truly great progress. Where social pressures resist that or try to change it, families break down single parents arise and we have the direction things are heading today.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

@straightshooter, of course men's needs are as important as women's in marriage. As a female, I mostly talk to other women about marriage though, so I'm asking for husband's input here on whether Doyle is a good recommendation or not. I have a friend who is very unhappy in her marriage and she doesn't know how to fix it when he won't talk to her about it at all.
@Satya, thanks for suggesting "Dance of Intimacy." I'll have to check that out- I haven't read it yet. 

What I like about both Harley and Doyle is that they both emphasize restoring intimacy in marriage as opposed to other books like Townsend's "Boundaries in Marriage," or "What to Do When He Won't Change," which all seem to be about coping as an individual in marriage. I know people love "The 5 Love Languages," but I thought it was light on application.

One big difference I see between Doyle and Harley is that Doyle coaches only wives and says that wives singlehandedly can change the tone of the marriage. This can be helpful for wives like my friend who are unable to get acknowledgement from their husbands that there is a problem.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Thor said:


> I agree with the article you linked as well as your quote above.
> 
> Complaining is a very negative experience for me. But there are positive ways to discussing something. Women tend to have different and higher standards when it comes to housekeeping, while men tend not to notice as soon that something needs to be done. There's nothing wrong with having a positive conversation about coming to agreement on housekeeping.
> 
> ...


Very helpful example, thank you for sharing! Doyle in this case tells women to worry about their own projects and let the husband do his how he wants. Harley talks about coming to an agreement on how the yard work is done so both spouses are happy with the outcome. Doyle says that discussing how your husband does something shows that you don't trust that his way is the right way, even if you think you're discussing it in a "respectful" way.

She even goes so far as to say that if your husband asks for your input on how you'd like the yard to look before he goes to work on it that you say "Whatever you think," to show your faith in him.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Jessica38 said:


> Very helpful example, thank you for sharing! Doyle in this case tells women to worry about their own projects and let the husband do his how he wants. Harley talks about coming to an agreement on how the yard work is done so both spouses are happy with the outcome. Doyle says that discussing how your husband does something shows that you don't trust that his way is the right way, even if you think you're discussing it in a "respectful" way.
> 
> She even goes so far as to say that if your husband asks for your input on how you'd like the yard to look before he goes to work on it that you say "Whatever you think," to show your faith in him.


I agree with Doyle in what you wrote there. 

Harley definitely has valid ideas but I think it can get too into the details when couples have to come to a discussed agreement on all the little things. My perspective is that safety and cleanliness are important enough to discuss if they aren't being met. If the kids are still dirty after supposedly being bathed, then yes there needs to be a discussion about them not being clean because it is a health issue. But when it comes to how the yard work is done or how things are arranged in the dishwasher, I disagree very much with Harley. 

Harley says the spouse not doing the chore has the say in how it is done. But that then makes the person who does the job the same as hired help. It makes the other spouse the overseer, the authority. I think this is a bad dynamic.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> So what do you think? If your wife is feeling neglected and/or unhappy, do you want her to complain so you know? Or do you agree that if she changes her perspective and behavior, it will go a long way in changing your reaction to her? What are the top ways your wife can show her respect for you? Do you think MC is disrespectful to you, by making you hear all of the things your wife thinks you are doing wrong?


Yes, I would want her to complain to me so that I know. It would also serve by letting her spouse know that she actually cares and wants to spend more time with him. 

MC is not disrespectful in itself, but if a wife uses it solely as a sounding board to berate her husband, that is a pretty good sign of disrespect.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Thor said:


> I agree with the article you linked as well as your quote above.
> 
> Complaining is a very negative experience for me. But there are positive ways to discussing something. Women tend to have different and higher standards when it comes to housekeeping, while men tend not to notice as soon that something needs to be done. There's nothing wrong with having a positive conversation about coming to agreement on housekeeping.
> 
> ...


Harley would say that your wife's level of complaining is a love buster. That means that she has to stop it. 

As I said in an earlier post, my son's father was like your wife--constant complaining about everything I did. He even complained about things that he imagined about me. 

What Doyle wrote about this is right in line with Harley--people who are chronic complainers need to stop the love busting.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Thor said:


> I agree with Doyle in what you wrote there.
> 
> Harley definitely has valid ideas but I think it can get too into the details when couples have to come to a discussed agreement on all the little things. My perspective is that safety and cleanliness are important enough to discuss if they aren't being met. If the kids are still dirty after supposedly being bathed, then yes there needs to be a discussion about them not being clean because it is a health issue. But when it comes to how the yard work is done or how things are arranged in the dishwasher, I disagree very much with Harley.
> 
> Harley says the spouse not doing the chore has the say in how it is done. But that then makes the person who does the job the same as hired help. It makes the other spouse the overseer, the authority. I think this is a bad dynamic.


I think that this is a bit of a misunderstanding of Harley.

My interpretation is that the not doing the job has a say up to a point.

For example, every time he sets the dishwasher he puts bowls in it bowl side up. So when the dishwasher runs, they fill with dirty water. And when I empty it, I have to be very careful to remove these bowls so that the dirty water does not spill all over the clean dishes. Then the bowl filled with dirty water have to put back to be washed in the next time the dishwasher is run. He also stacks bowls and things on top of each other so the water does not get to them. To me, setting the dish washer like this is simply a way to make sure he never has to set the dish washer.

There was a guy who posted on TAM a long time ago who complained about his wife nagging. Apparently he did the dishes after dinner every night. When he was done with the dishes, he left the sink and counters dirty. He described the counters as being dirty and wet. Then he went to watch a TV show or two before he would clean the sink and counters. He said that he needed a break after all because it was all so much work.

He was upset because he wife was always upset about this. After he posted more info, it turns out that his wife was upset because she was busy taking care of the kids, getting them to bed, etc. while he was watching TV. During that time, every night she had to make school lunches for the kids. She could not do that on dirty, wet counters. So every night she ended up cleaning the counters so she could make the lunches.

His argument was that she was telling him how to do the job. No, she was pissed because he was not finishing the job and so she had to do it. And because he was watching TV instead of helping with things so that she too could get some time to relax.

In the above two situations, the guy is love busting. By playing at incompetence, these two guys are making sure that he will be able to avoid house work.

These are the kinds of situations that Harley is talking about when he says that the person not doing the job has a say in how the job is done.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

@EleGirl, Doyle does not just say that wives shouldn't chronically complain- she says they should not complain at all. Instead, she says to focus on the positive. This is vastly different from Harley. Harley recommends couples complain respectfully, but admits it is still a love withdrawal. Doyle says it is such a hit to men that instead, we should use our feminine ways to influence what we want. 

In the example of housecleaning, she says to ask "what do I want and how do I feel?" I feel the house is too messy and I want help keeping it clean. Tell your husband what you would love, but as soon as it requires him to do something, you're being controlling. So make it only about yourself. "I would love to come home to a clean house." "I would love to hire a cleaning service." Tell him what you desire, not what you want him to do.

Harley's premise is that couples should complain in marriage, though like others said here, respectfully. 

Doyle says it is disrespectful to complain at all. She says men want to make their wives happy and give them what they desire. They do not like being controlled in any way.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> I think that this is a bit of a misunderstanding of Harley.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Or she is love busting. She could just as easily do the lunches earlier. It's never only 1 answer


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Dannip said:


> *I think we are in agreement. Where women today are treated as property, that society is living in a third world state. Where roles are well defined you have balance and truly great progress.* Where social pressures resist that or try to change it, families break down single parents arise and we have the direction things are heading today.



Those two statements are contradictory. The societies today that have well defined, distinct gender role are the societies where women are treated like property.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Or she is love busting. She could just as easily do the lunches earlier. It's never only 1 answer


Earlier she was cooking, then helping the kids with their homework, then getting them to bed, etc. 

There was no time before dinner to do the lunches for the next day because she too had a full time job.

While she was doing all that he was watching TV and the did the dishes.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

EleGirl;18047850 Apparently he did the dishes after dinner every night. When he was done with the dishes said:


> This would drive me crazy too. Harley would absolutely say to address it in a respectful way. Doyle would say to duct tape your mouth and focus on the fact that he did the dishes. If the dirty counters bother me, I can:
> 
> 1. Make lunches another time.
> 2. Cheerfully clean only the space on the counter I need to make the lunches.
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jessica38 said:


> @EleGirl, Doyle does not just say that wives shouldn't chronically complain- she says they should not complain at all. Instead, she says to focus on the positive. This is vastly different from Harley. Harley recommends couples complain respectfully, but admits it is still a love withdrawal. Doyle says it is such a hit to men that instead, we should use our feminine ways to influence what we want.
> 
> In the example of housecleaning, she says to ask "what do I want and how do I feel?" I feel the house is too messy and I want help keeping it clean. Tell your husband what you would love, but as soon as it requires him to do something, you're being controlling. So make it only about yourself. "I would love to come home to a clean house." "I would love to hire a cleaning service." Tell him what you desire, not what you want him to do.
> 
> ...


Does she say that women should never tell their husband about their needs and feelings?

I do not think that Doyle is telling women that even in situations where a women in married to a man who does not want to make her happy, who is a lazy ass, who will not do anything, that the woman should just do it all and be happy about it and never say anything to the man. She's talking about cases where the guy is reasonable and the wife is nagging and complaining unreasonably.


We are going to have to agree to disagree. I see shades of gray in both of their writing. You see black and white. It's ok to see things differently.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Or she is love busting. She could just as easily do the lunches earlier. It's never only 1 answer
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I want to elaborate because I think sometimes the way one person does a job implies that's the only way.

It's probably not a stretch to believe that many moms take a long time tucking in kids. My w used to read books, tell stories, etc. So her "tuck in" was a long, drawn out process.

Mine was a couple minutes, hugs and kisses, maybe "hope you had a nice day", smiles, prayers, lights out. 5 min tops.

Both are "correct". However, just because my w takes 45 minutes doesn't mean she's done 40 "more" minutes of household work. It just means she chose to spend an additional 40 minutes with the kids at bedtime. Her choice - I'm totally cool with that. Everyone is happy.

Now suppose I'm that hapless hubby, and I just picked up, scrubbed the pans, and now I want some cave time. That's my need. I don't really care about the counters at this point. W could just as easily cut her kid time a little and wiped down while I finished dishes.

That fact that she NOW chooses to do lunches because she was "too busy" earlier isn't really all my fault. Since she knows how I work, I think Doyle might say she should take this into consideration and be positive about it then I might care a bit more. But instead, I GUARANTEE (since she vented to you) that she instead chose to stew on this and probably blamed him for being lazy.

There's no right and wrong here but there definitely are choices by both - spend time with kids = spend cave time with TV. 

The RIGHT answer in my humble opinion is for BOTH to realize the difference between "what has to be done" versus "how I choose to do a chore". Both individuals (in my hypothetical) probably thought "that's how kids should be tucked in" and "that's a reasonable way to prioritize dishes tasks". Both are guilty of missing out on alternative ways to do their tasks, with just a LITTLE more consideration of their S.

Maybe "consideration" is the real missing element


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## Dannip (Jun 13, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Those two statements are contradictory. The societies today that have well defined, distinct gender role are the societies where women are treated like property.


I avoided details but it is not contradictory. Places today where women are property are not balanced societies. Nor is there progress compared to balanced well defined societies. Ive seen this in third world countries.

Balanced and defined follows our nature. Property does not.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Does she say that women should never tell their husband about their needs and feelings?
> 
> I do not think that Doyle is telling women that even in situations where a women in married to a man who does not want to make her happy, who is a lazy ass, who will not do anything, that the woman should just do it all and be happy about it and never say anything to the man. She's talking about cases where the guy is reasonable and the wife is nagging and complaining unreasonably.


Nope, she specifically talks about how her husband would sit and watch TV while she cleaned the kitchen. She specifically mentioned that her husband was "lazy," according to her. 

She says she changed all of this with her 6 Intimacy Skills, and helps her clients do the same.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jessica38 said:


> @EleGirl, Doyle does not just say that wives shouldn't chronically complain- she says they should not complain at all. Instead, she says to focus on the positive. This is vastly different from Harley. Harley recommends couples complain respectfully, but admits it is still a love withdrawal. Doyle says it is such a hit to men that instead, we should use our feminine ways to influence what we want.
> 
> In the example of housecleaning, she says to ask "what do I want and how do I feel?" I feel the house is too messy and I want help keeping it clean. Tell your husband what you would love, but as soon as it requires him to do something, you're being controlling. So make it only about yourself. "I would love to come home to a clean house." "I would love to hire a cleaning service." Tell him what you desire, not what you want him to do.


Here is another article by Doyle about house work. In it she gives examples of ways for a woman to tell her husband very clearly what she wants from him, her needs in a situation. I’ve been reading other things that she wrote and she does the same thing on other topics.

She says that she was the breadwinner and her husband took care of the kids but did not much else. She was exhausted and resentful. But she learned how to respectfully tell him what she needed. Here are two of the examples she gave to the linked article. She is clearly not telling women to never state their needs.


_“I want to make a nice dinner for us, but I don’t want to do the dishes.”

“I can’t do this anymore. It’s too stressful for me.”_[/I]​
Then she says: 

_ “I can’t promise your story will end the same way, but I can promise that focusing on expressing your desires and setting your limits will go a long way toward erasing the resentment you’re feeling. Start focusing on what you want and expressing it without manipulation, frustration or control. Don’t worry if your desires are practical or even possible—just acknowledge them.”_​
So…

1)	She is not saying that her approach is 100% the answer. It works in certain situations, like when a man actually does care and when a woman has been doing a lot of negative complaining/nagging.

2) She is not telling women to never express their Doyle does not just say that wives shouldn't chronically complain- she says they should not complain at all.

*How to Get More Help and Housework from Hubby | Laura Doyle*



Jessica38 said:


> Harley's premise is that couples should complain in marriage, though like others said here, respectfully.
> 
> Doyle says it is disrespectful to complain at all. She says men want to make their wives happy and give them what they desire. They do not like being controlled in any way.


I think you are hung up on the word ‘complaining’. Harley and Doyle are using the words differently. When Harley uses the work “complaining”, he is not talking about nagging, nagging with disrespectful judgements, etc. He’s talking about respectfully telling your spouse what you need. And he is clear that both men AND women need to do this… in a respectful manner. Anything else is love busting.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> During that time, every night she had to make school lunches for the kids. She could not do that on dirty, wet counters. So every night she ended up cleaning the counters so she could make the lunches.
> 
> His argument was that she was telling him how to do the job. No, she was pissed because he was not finishing the job and so she had to do it. And because he was watching TV instead of helping with things so that she too could get some time to relax.
> 
> ...


That goes back to my statement about safety and sanitation. If those kinds of things are involved, then yes it is valid to interject on how the other person is doing the job. But aside from that, I don't think the other person has any cause to complain about how something is done.

My understanding of Harley's position is he advocates for more meddling than I do.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Here is another article by Doyle about house work. In it she gives examples of ways for a woman to tell her husband very clearly what she wants from him, her needs in a situation. I’ve been reading other things that she wrote and she does the same thing on other topics.
> She says that she was the breadwinner and her husband took care of the kids but did not much else. She was exhausted and resentful. But she learned how to respectfully tell him what she needed. Here are two of the examples she gave to the linked article. She is clearly not telling women to never state their needs.
> “I want to make a nice dinner for us, but I don’t want to do the dishes.”
> “I can’t do this anymore. It’s too stressful for me.”
> ...


Yes, she says to state your desires to get more of what you need in your marriage.

This still seems very different to me than Harley's recommendation to say that "It bothers me when you don't XYZ or you XYZ," in this case, "It bothers me when you don't do the dishes after I make dinner for us." 

Doyle says don't do that at all. State your desires by asking yourself "what do I need and what do I want" but don't complain (even respectfully) if he doesn't do it.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Thor said:


> That goes back to my statement about safety and sanitation. If those kinds of things are involved, then yes it is valid to interject on how the other person is doing the job. But aside from that, I don't think the other person has any cause to complain about how something is done.
> 
> My understanding of Harley's position is he advocates for more meddling than I do.


Yes, this is my understanding too.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jessica,

That is a great list. Especially the example of saying: I miss you - instead of: you've been ignoring me lately. 

That said, there is a sort of missing dimension in that article - which for lack of a better word I will call tone. 

Being happy, playful and generally fun to be around is incredibly appealing. 

I'm not saying - there isn't room for complaining / sharing frustrations. 

But we usually have a shorthand for that. Like after 45 minutes of ATT U-verse tech support - if asked how it went I skip the blow by blow and say: It's their normal customer service model: We’re not satisfied until you’re not satisfied. 

If she wants more details she can ask - otherwise there is no need to both of us being immersed in the semi monopolistic world of data/voice/video providers…. 

Way more fun to talk about epigenetics, gravitational lensing, cocolithophores (spelling?) or the latest Supreme Court ruling than why ATT and Directv haven't merged their customer management systems…..







Jessica38 said:


> It seems that when a wife is feeling neglected in her marriage, there are differing schools of though on how she can get back the affection, attention, time, and companionship she is missing from her husband.
> 
> In His Needs, Her Needs, Dr. Harley talks about how complaints are an opportunity in marriage to learn what we can do better to meet our spouse's needs. He says that lovebusters like independent behavior, selfish demands, and criticism destroy the love we have for our spouses and should be addressed head-on. He is a licensed clinical psych with over 30 years experience in saving marriages. He says that MC has a very low success rate, around 17%.
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Thor said:


> That goes back to my statement about safety and sanitation. If those kinds of things are involved, then yes it is valid to interject on how the other person is doing the job. But aside from that, I don't think the other person has any cause to complain about how something is done.
> 
> My understanding of Harley's position is he advocates for more meddling than I do.


I agree with you that for a lot of things, it can be meddlings.

For example. I talked about setting the dishwasher in a way that a lot of the bowls were facing up so they filled with dirty water during the cycle. For a adult to do that all the time is ridiculous. I think that warrents a mention.

On the other hand, here is a dishwasher example that I think I would be stupid to bring up. To do so would be nagging and meddling.

My dishwasher's utensils holder has a slot for each utensil in nice, neat rows. I put the flat wear (spoon, forks, etc) in the holder in an organized fashion: all tea spoons in a row, all table spoons in a row, all dinner forks in row, etc. This makes it easer to get more in and easier when I'm putting them away. He just puts them in all unorganized, it gets hard to see if there is a space open to put in the next utensil. And they are harder to unload, get caught on each other, etc. But they are all clean when the dishwasher cycle is done.

When he does this I want to scream. You know what, that's my problem. I know it's my problem. I sort of laugh at myself now when I get upset about this. I would never say a word to him because it's my problem. I doubt that Hannity would say that this is something that I should bring up. Is what he does a love busters? I don't think so. Would my complaining about it be a love buster? I think so.

I think that sometimes people look at what Harley says in very black and white terms. My bet is that if we could talk to the man, he would be a lot more nuanced in his take on things.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jessica38 said:


> Yes, she says to state your desires to get more of what you need in your marriage.
> 
> This still seems very different to me than Harley's recommendation to say that "It bothers me when you don't XYZ or you XYZ," in this case, "It bothers me when you don't do the dishes after I make dinner for us."
> 
> Doyle says don't do that at all. State your desires by asking yourself "what do I need and what do I want" but don't complain (even respectfully) if he doesn't do it.


I agree that Harley suggests that people say things like: "It bothers me when you don't do the dishes after I make dinner for us."

But it's in an atmosphere were both the husband and the wife agree to handle things this way. These sorts of things are not meant to be said in a nagging (complaining) way. 

It's one thing for a couple to sit down and have a discussion about their needs and to tell the other things like this. It's quite another to nag and complain about everything.

Doyle does not look to help couples set up an atmosphere where they can sit down together and have detailed discussions about their needs and love busters. She does avoid this.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> Jessica,
> 
> That is a great list. Especially the example of saying: I miss you - instead of: you've been ignoring me lately.
> 
> ...


Hold it right there- your husband enjoys talking about this with you? Lucky duck. I take it you're both scientists? 

And you hit on why I find Doyle so appealing- she really does advocate for wives to be happy, playful, and generally fun to be around and how far that goes in creating a happy marriage.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

My wife is truly an exceptional companion. She loves science (hard and soft), and politics and environmental issues and is generally smart, curious and open minded. 

We spend most of our free time together. 

Reason I mention the bit about being a good companion is I observed a divorce in slow motion. 

Wife was insistent that H was OBLIGATED to spend a meaningful amount of time with her because they were married. Thing is - they weren't good together - and she was absolutely uninterested in ANY conversation about being a better companion. 

Companionship, is like sex, the better it is for your partner, the more often it tends to happen. 






Jessica38 said:


> Hold it right there- your husband enjoys talking about this with you? Lucky duck. I take it you're both scientists?
> 
> And you hit on why I find Doyle so appealing- she really does advocate for wives to be happy, playful, and generally fun to be around and how far that goes in creating a happy marriage.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

@MEM2020, I apologize for assuming you are a woman (not sure why I did that?)....

Thanks for replying on this thread.

Interestingly, Harley also recommends spending a certain amount of time together in marriage, at least 15 hours a week, to maintain romantic love. Do you think their marriage didn't work because this time wasn't enjoyable for the two of them or because she insisted on this time with him (i.e., control)?

And what kind things to say about your wife. Good for you two.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

No offense taken. I honestly try to be gender neutral in my viewpoints. 

I think their marriage failed for a few primary reasons:
1. They got married just as they both graduated from an MBA program, it was time to get married so - they got married. 
2. They never had great interpersonal chemistry.
3. Their sexual chemistry was good until after having kids - and then increasingly bad.
4. You can have one competitive person in a marriage - but when both people are trying to 'win' the marriage - 
5. And the wife - had very low self awareness (of her own issuers) and was way more likely to complain about her day - than be happy about her two terrific kids, beautiful home and friends and solid, hard working husband who made a very good living. 





Jessica38 said:


> @MEM2020, I apologize for assuming you are a woman (not sure why I did that?)....
> 
> Thanks for replying on this thread.
> 
> ...


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Jessica38 said:


> Interestingly, Harley also recommends spending a certain amount of time together in marriage, at least 15 hours a week, to maintain romantic love. Do you think their marriage didn't work because this time wasn't enjoyable for the two of them or because she insisted on this time with him (i.e., control)?


Harley is pretty adamant that the 15 hours a week a couple needs to spend together should be spent doing fun, date-like, things. Both partners should enjoy it. In other words, that time together should be spent meeting the needs for conversation, recreational companionship, affection, and sex. So, it can't just be 15 hours. It has to be 15 hours that's enjoyable for both partners. 

Insisting on spending an adequate amount of time together as a couple really should be predicated on the idea that that time together will be enjoyable for both. As MEM said, it's like sex. The better it is, the more likely you are to want to repeat the experience. There's no upside to enforcing time together if it's an unpleasant experience for one or both partners. That just creates an aversion to spending time together later. 

No one wants to spend time with someone who's unpleasant to be around or is in a foul mood all the time, fussing, complaining, nagging, etc. I think it behooves _both_ wives and husbands to be happy, upbeat, fun companions.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I just realized that Doyle is also the author of The Surrendered Wife. I'm guessing The Empowered Wife  was designed to sound less objectionable to a broader audience than that earlier title did. 

While I think there are some valid points to be made in her work, I also find that sort of tone to a marriage to be potentially problematic. Most people will treat you how you allow them to. Not being a controlling nag who mothers her husband as much or more than she does the children, is one thing. But surrendering all decision making and all control of every facet of the marriage and your life and your children's lives, often proves to be something else entirely. Sucking it up constantly - no matter how poorly your husband is handling something - so as not to damage your man's apparently exceptionally fragile ego with anything that might remotely be construed as a criticism, just results in becoming a doormat. Not every man will be so grateful for his wife's happy devotion and constant admiration that he'll automatically meet her unspoken needs or start doing his share of the work. Some will just take it for granted and continue on their merry way as the wife is left with more and more and more on her plate. After all, marriage to a woman who requires nothing of him while she hands over total control of every facet of their lives is totally working for him, so why on earth would he want to do anything differently? Besides, it's not like she's complaining or anything.....


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Dannip said:


> Hubby here.
> 
> The answer is yes. The article is correct. It falls short of deeper analysis as why this is so.
> 
> ...


Truth.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Ironically, just the process of venting can be very helpful to emotional people - mostly women in the case of people I know. So I understand what you're saying.
> 
> Unfortunately, for most of the men I know, venting is the START of the process, not a process in and of itself.
> 
> ...


 Huh? Sorry you lost me there. I don't have any use for endless complaining without looking for solutions. Why would anyone put up with that?

I was just pointing out that saying or feeling something negative isn't always bad. Sometimes it's helpful .... and it's definitely no fair trying to make one spouse squash all of their feelings so that they other one can have all their whims catered to.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Rowan said:


> I just realized that Doyle is also the author of The Surrendered Wife. I'm guessing The Empowered Wife  was designed to sound less objectionable to a broader audience than that earlier title did.
> 
> While I think there are some valid points to be made in her work, I also find that sort of tone to a marriage to be potentially problematic. Most people will treat you how you allow them to. Not being a controlling nag who mothers her husband as much or more than she does the children, is one thing. But surrendering all decision making and all control of every facet of the marriage and your life and your children's lives, often proves to be something else entirely. Sucking it up constantly - no matter how poorly your husband is handling something - so as not to damage your man's apparently exceptionally fragile ego with anything that might remotely be construed as a criticism, just results in becoming a doormat. Not every man will be so grateful for his wife's happy devotion and constant admiration that he'll automatically meet her unspoken needs or start doing his share of the work. Some will just take it for granted and continue on their merry way as the wife is left with more and more and more on her plate. After all, marriage to a woman who requires nothing of him while she hands over total control of every facet of their lives is totally working for him, so why on earth would he want to do anything differently? Besides, it's not like she's complaining or anything.....


Surrendered? Eek. I'll take a pass on that. Sounds like a set up for disaster to me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> *Surrendered?* Eek. I'll take a pass on that. Sounds like a set up for disaster to me.


Sounds too much like _Resigned_? 

If I wrote a book on this subject, I would call it _The Transparent Wife._


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> Sounds too much like _Resigned_?


Yes, or worse! I also think of white flags, begging not to be tortured, complete loss of autonomy and self-determination ...



jld said:


> If I wrote a book on this subject, I would call it _The Transparent Wife._


Not sure I could totally get into that either. I'm thinking it's probably a pretty good thing that my husband really has no clue about some of the things that go on inside my head ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Yes, or worse! I also think of white flags, begging not to be tortured, complete loss of autonomy and self-determination ...


Lol. I thought of it more as the wife rolling her eyes and giving up on him. 



> Not sure I could totally get into that either. I'm thinking it's probably a pretty good thing that my husband really has no clue about some of the things that go on inside my head ...




For me, nothing is going on in my head that I would not feel totally safe having my husband hear.

Actually, it is better for us if he does hear it all. Helps him understand me better.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

KrisAmiss said:


> I'm not a husband, but I like this question & wish someone would answer. But I wonder if guys know?
> 
> I think Laura Doyle is onto something. I think it could work either way, gender wise, but perhaps does work best with men - the kill em with kindness method. For the first six years of marriage, I gushed about everything my husband did and we had a great time. Only with the addition of kids/stressful job did it become strained and it got worse & worse. I couldn't get over the resentment to gush anymore and eventually 20+ years later I was ready to divorce, then he was and then poof, suddenly I wasn't. I don't know why exactly. I reckon I love him.
> 
> ...


What really gets to me with all the MC stuff and all the marriage books, they place most of the responsibility on the woman. 
Now why is that, doesn't she have enough to do, rear kids, work, clean, cook, etc. For a few years now, I have had so much resentment, I think F it why should I put in more effort, read more books, go to seminars, etc?
A marriage is two people not one! Women kill themselves with all this **** and then also put smoke up his ass to make him feel better about himself, when he has not been putting in effort or paying her attention, neglecting her needs, etc. What is with that? 
And we stupid women swallow all this BS. How many men read books from cover to cover, go to seminars, etc to add value to their marriages? I don't see anywhere including in religious literature that it was decreed that women should be the keepers of the marriage. 

**** that!


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Jessica38 said:


> It seems that when a wife is feeling neglected in her marriage, there are differing schools of though on how she can get back the affection, attention, time, and companionship she is missing from her husband.
> 
> In His Needs, Her Needs, Dr. Harley talks about how complaints are an opportunity in marriage to learn what we can do better to meet our spouse's needs. He says that lovebusters like independent behavior, selfish demands, and criticism destroy the love we have for our spouses and should be addressed head-on. He is a licensed clinical psych with over 30 years experience in saving marriages. He says that MC has a very low success rate, around 17%.
> 
> ...


*Sounds both reasonable and logical to me!

Sad to say, while that was an expectation of mine while I was married, it didn't happen with either wife!*


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> Dr. Harley says that complaining in marriage is a good thing, that it gives the spouse an opportunity to fix what is wrong. He says that often, the wife is the one doing the complaining.
> 
> Laura Doyle says that complaints are criticism to men, and that criticizing your husband is a major reason why they stop wanting to meet our needs.
> 
> ...


I've been doing this for years but I don't feel any happier. Friends of mine in **** marriages are the most independent people I know, go out, to plays, for drinks, for girlie holidays, etc but that is not creating a 'two is one' marriage. If anything it can result in both spouses becoming ships in the night. The wife does her stuff, H happy doing his stuff and only looks her up when he wants sex, how can that lead to a good marriage. For many men this would be ideal, wife is busy playing golf, etc but come together at night(bedtime) etc. The reality is there is no easy way to get around putting effort and work into the marriage. Two have to do it, bottom line.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

aine said:


> What really gets to me with all the MC stuff and all the marriage books, they place most of the responsibility on the woman.
> Now why is that, doesn't she have enough to do, rear kids, work, clean, cook, etc. For a few years now, I have had so much resentment, I think F it why should I put in more effort, read more books, go to seminars, etc?
> A marriage is two people not one! Women kill themselves with all this **** and then also put smoke up his ass to make him feel better about himself, when he has not been putting in effort or paying her attention, neglecting her needs, etc. What is with that?
> And we stupid women swallow all this BS. How many men read books from cover to cover, go to seminars, etc to add value to their marriages? I don't see anywhere including in religious literature that it was decreed that women should be the keepers of the marriage.
> ...


Not only swallow, but surrender. 

The more I think about it, the more I'm troubled by this idea that women should never give voice to their thoughts or feelings. I can see why it's a great deal for the man, but I wonder what sort of damage it does to the woman.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

aine said:


> I've been doing this for years but I don't feel any happier. Friends of mine in **** marriages are the most independent people I know, go out, to plays, for drinks, for girlie holidays, etc but that is not creating a 'two is one' marriage. If anything it can result in both spouses becoming ships in the night. The wife does her stuff, H happy doing his stuff and only looks her up when he wants sex, how can that lead to a good marriage. For many men this would be ideal, wife is busy playing golf, etc but come together at night(bedtime) etc. The reality is there is no easy way to get around putting effort and work into the marriage. Two have to do it, bottom line.


Or let him do it. And she responds as she feels inspired.


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## KrisAmiss (May 1, 2017)

"Her point is that once we stop trying to control our spouse, even if they are doing things that bother us or hurt us, and *start giving them respect*, which is like oxygen to men, husbands respond much better to their wives and will strive to do what they can to make their wives happy, including choose to give them their time, affection, attention, and companionship, as well as meet other needs."

idk... I've only read a short article by Laura Doyle. But the other man I knew best in this world (my dad) also responded well to respect. His reaction to my sister was sometimes horrible but that's what she fed him. But give a little and he'd give you the moon.

I've resisted until now cuz like many of you, I thought - why should I always have to be the one... but it doesn't matter anymore. In the end, I win. It doesn't take much more effort; in fact, it may take less overall. It's a different kind of control. One that actually works.

You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

KrisAmiss said:


> "Her point is that once we stop trying to control our spouse, even if they are doing things that bother us or hurt us, and *start giving them respect*, which is like oxygen to men, husbands respond much better to their wives and will strive to do what they can to make their wives happy, including choose to give them their time, affection, attention, and companionship, as well as meet other needs."
> 
> idk... I've only read a short article by Laura Doyle. But the other man I knew best in this world (my dad) also responded well to respect. His reaction to my sister was sometimes horrible but that's what she fed him. But give a little and he'd give you the moon.
> 
> ...


If you want to stay married, that makes sense.

I just would not want to be married under those conditions. It would not be worth it to me.


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## KrisAmiss (May 1, 2017)

jld said:


> I just would not want to be married under those conditions. It would not be worth it to me.


You're making me laugh. I'm not a servant in a dungeon. My DH treats me quite well in some ways. He has the capability to rise to the occassion. It's positive reenforcement. Catch em doing something good is something I read in a child rearing book. We all want to be appreciated for the effort we give. My DH does alot. I'd be foolish not to recognize that. He's also a perfectionist so I know he wants to be the best husband and feels frustrated when I'm not acting like he is. He honestly tries if he feels he can attain. Perhaps it won't work on others, but when I think about my brother... I think, he especially would eat this kind of attention up.

For me, I've read 8 million child rearing books. I only recently looked at a marriage book and looked online for help. I haven't been studying this thing either. I don't mind that he's not reading - then, he won't know my *tricks*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

KrisAmiss said:


> You're making me laugh. I'm not a servant in a dungeon. My DH treats me quite well in some ways. He has the capability to rise to the occassion. It's positive reenforcement. Catch em doing something good is something I read in a child rearing book. We all want to be appreciated for the effort we give. My DH does alot. I'd be foolish not to recognize that. He's also a perfectionist so I know he wants to be the best husband and feels frustrated when I'm not acting like he is. He honestly tries if he feels he can attain. Perhaps it won't work on others, but when I think about my brother... I think, he especially would eat this kind of attention up.
> 
> For me, I've read 8 million child rearing books. I only recently looked at a marriage book and looked online for help. I haven't been studying this thing either. I don't mind that he's not reading - then, he won't know my *tricks*


If you are satisfied, then good enough.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

All I know, as a man, is that I've watched as MANY have fallen out of love with disrespectful wives over the years.

I've heard plenty of one sided conversations and it's clear

Some of you have seen the positive response to respect and that is great

Some of you have quite a chip on your shoulder, and your attitude that you shouldn't "have to" show respect is sad because you either don't fully understand that you are undermining your marriage (or as @turners says "love busting").

I suspect you simply don't rank respect as high as most men which is why you believe there is some "cost" to giving it.

If is exactly the same behavior as making sex marital hostage to some negotiation where you feel taken advantage of

Respect and sex should not be "granted" on a quid pro quo basis. To make those essential aspects of marriage bargaining chips is a huge mistake IMO

Of course, you probably have your own legitimate gripes. But maintaining a combative stance to get your needs met is rarely going to achieve what you seek


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

aine said:


> What really gets to me with all the MC stuff and all the marriage books, they place most of the responsibility on the woman.
> Now why is that, doesn't she have enough to do, rear kids, work, clean, cook, etc. For a few years now, I have had so much resentment, I think F it why should I put in more effort, read more books, go to seminars, etc?
> A marriage is two people not one! Women kill themselves with all this **** and then also put smoke up his ass to make him feel better about himself, when he has not been putting in effort or paying her attention, neglecting her needs, etc. What is with that?
> And we stupid women swallow all this BS. How many men read books from cover to cover, go to seminars, etc to add value to their marriages? I don't see anywhere including in religious literature that it was decreed that women should be the keepers of the marriage.
> ...


The fact that I hear both men and women on this site make the very same complaint tells me we (both men and women) are good at selective hearing.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> All I know, as a man, is that I've watched as MANY have fallen out of love with disrespectful wives over the years.
> 
> I've heard plenty of one sided conversations and it's clear
> 
> ...


I am happy with my marriage.

And I fully believe respect is earned.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> The fact that I hear both men and women on this site make the very same complaint tells me we (both men and women) are good at selective hearing.


I guess it's been around for awhile... it's even in some scriptures I remember from vacation bible school of my youth

Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them..

Funny the things one remembers...


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Respect, IMHO, is something that is earned, not something that should be lavished on someone just because they like it.

"Oh, gush, gush, you picked your socks off the floor. My hero!, gush gush". 

I do find it interesting, though, the idea that this whole approach is still about control. Making him do what you want -- just manipulating different psychological mechanisms. 

And while the danger with the one way is that he will grow tired of the complaining and leave you, the danger with the other way is that his head will swell up, and after that, anything can happen. 

I dunno. I was never really one to want to control my hubby at all. Personally, I can't stand it when someone is trying to control me, and so I try to return the favor. Just because you're married to someone doesn't mean you own them. Or their behavior.


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## KrisAmiss (May 1, 2017)

wild jade said:


> I do find it interesting, though, the idea that this whole approach is still about control. Making him do what you want -- just manipulating different psychological mechanisms.


I said something about control, don't know that I meant it. I believe she's more about self care and not nagging. Presenting yourself in a pleasant way. My MIL didn't w my FIL. I didn't want to be around them together. I certainly wouldn't want to be married to that.

Laura Doyle's new Empowered Wives tv show is on Amazon Prime free. I watched a show and a bit of the next. It is nauseating imo. She looks old fashioned. The "interviews" seem rehearsed and repetitive. But mostly, I didn't learn anything. I can't imagine anyone will get anything out of it.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

wild jade said:


> Respect, IMHO, is something that is earned, not something that should be lavished on someone just because they like it.
> 
> "Oh, gush, gush, you picked your socks off the floor. My hero!, gush gush".


I don't think it works like that. The idea is to not nag him about picking up his socks, but you aren't going to praise him for it when he eventually does it. 

The idea is to stop the negative engagements and to give positive feedback. Basic human nature is to get turned off when one receives frequent negative comments. These are Love Busters as one relationship guru calls them. If you do nag him about his socks, and if you make some negative comment about how he arranges dishes in the dishwasher, and if you backseat driver his choice of parking spot, then he experiences a consistent string of negative events.

At which point he realizes two things. One is he can never do anything right in your eyes. The other is whenever he does something, it will result in a negative comment. This kills his desire to do anything around the house because there will be some kind of complaint, correction, or criticism about it.

So, instead you engage in positive feedback where appropriate. If he comes in all sweaty from cutting the lawn, make it a point to say something positive about his efforts. If he empties the dishwasher, tell him it's nice to have someone around who can put the heavy stack of plates in the cabinet. I presume you do appreciate that he cuts the grass and whatever else he does, so just find a way to give some positive feedback. The author's proposition is the positive feedback will motivate him to do more.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

wild jade said:


> Respect, IMHO, is something that is earned, not something that should be lavished on someone just because they like it.
> 
> "Oh, gush, gush, you picked your socks off the floor. My hero!, gush gush".
> 
> ...




Sounds pretty snarky to me - exactly what respect doesn't look like.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Thor said:


> I don't think it works like that. The idea is to not nag him about picking up his socks, but you aren't going to praise him for it when he eventually does it.
> 
> The idea is to stop the negative engagements and to give positive feedback. Basic human nature is to get turned off when one receives frequent negative comments. These are Love Busters as one relationship guru calls them. If you do nag him about his socks, and if you make some negative comment about how he arranges dishes in the dishwasher, and if you backseat driver his choice of parking spot, then he experiences a consistent string of negative events.
> 
> ...


The only person in my house who gets *****ed out for loading the dishwasher wrong is me. :wink2: And yes, absolutely, the end result is that I avoid loading the dishwasher like the plague. So I get it. 

But the author's proposition seems to me to be that women are basically nagging witchy control freaks, and what they really need to do to control their husbands better is to "respect" him by giving him praise no matter what he does, stop counting on him, expecting anything from him, and making herself happy. 

As I said in an earlier post, if you really are that kind of control freak, then male or female, yes, you probably ought to re-think how much the world revolves around you. But while I do thank my husband regularly, I'm not going to gush over him for acting like an ordinary adult. Except maybe playfully and for fun.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

What I'm getting at is that from what I've seen of Laura Doyle's approach, it's all about "how I got my husband to do ...." and the answer is always "respect". But what is respect for her? Here is a quote from one of her blogs "How to Respect Your Husband".

"These days, I usually say “Whatever you think,” or “I hear you,” or I put metaphorical duct tape over my mouth and just say…nothing. "

She is an admitted control freak, so maybe the best advice for her really is to STFU at least some of the time. But to make this generalizable advice? Good for all women? 

As I said before, I can certainly see why a man might like it, but I'm not seeing the advantage for the woman.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

A more harmonious marriage?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> A more harmonious marriage?


Errr.. sure. If your definition of "harmonious" is squash all of your own feelings, thoughts, and ideas so that you can be "fun" to be with and give the other person everything they want.

I'm betting if someone gave you that same advice, you'd be wondering what's in it for you. Imagine we tell all the unhappy men here on TAM that they should just try to have a more harmonious marriage by just saying "whatever you think" and duct-taping all their negative feelings. How well do you suppose that would go over?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

wild jade said:


> Errr.. sure. If your definition of "harmonious" is squash all of your own feelings, thoughts, and ideas so that you can be "fun" to be with and give the other person everything they want.
> 
> I'm betting if someone gave you that same advice, you'd be wondering what's in it for you. Imagine we tell all the unhappy men here on TAM that they should just try to have a more harmonious marriage by just saying "whatever you think" and duct-taping all their negative feelings. How well do you suppose that would go over?


Essentially what you're doing is following a suggestion to an improbable conclusion, which is to do this at all times, in all ways, in all situations.

Just like alcohol can be beneficial in moderation, many other things in life are the same way.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

wild jade said:


> Errr.. sure. If your definition of "harmonious" is squash all of your own feelings, thoughts, and ideas so that you can be "fun" to be with and give the other person everything they want.
> 
> I'm betting if someone gave you that same advice, you'd be wondering what's in it for you. Imagine we tell all the unhappy men here on TAM that they should just try to have a more harmonious marriage by just saying "whatever you think" and duct-taping all their negative feelings. How well do you suppose that would go over?




I'm pretty sure your extreme take on this isn't what most here are reading into the good advise given. I didn't hear anything about "gushing" praise or duct tape

You do realize that it is not uncommon for wives to ***** at their SO, push them away, and then build resentment and create negative feelings that they then dump on their SO, don't you? I've seen this pattern time and again but maybe you haven't and maybe this isn't for you


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

I think the article is spot on. But....the reason women benefit from this article is because they are fixing issues that the guy should have already stepped up and taken care of if the couple wants a traditional male/female dynamic. It's the guys job to recognize and change himself if he is doing something stupid (e.g. putting bowls in the dishwasher so the water doesn't drain) and it is also his job to recognize when his woman is upset about something else and needs to feel heard and understood. If he is doing those things and paying attention to his woman's needs then most of her actions will naturally follow suit with the articles recommendations.
@Thor - if I was in your situation about the grass being complained about, I'd first look and see if the complaints were valid. If I was doing a decent job that I was satisfied with, then when the wife complained I'd ask her if this was really about the grass or if there was something else on her mind that she wanted to talk about and tell her that I'd listen for as long as she needs. If it turns out it wasn't the grass then she'll feel like I listened and understood her, so the grass complaint would disappear. If it is really her just being nitpicky, then I'd shoot her down and tell her that the outside is my territory to take care of as I see fit, but she might be able to temp me to change my yard work techniques if she was in the kitchen baking me a pie. And I'd do it with a **** eating grin on my face.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Errr.. sure. If your definition of "harmonious" is squash all of your own feelings, thoughts, and ideas so that you can be "fun" to be with and give the other person everything they want.
> 
> I'm betting if someone gave you that same advice, you'd be wondering what's in it for you. Imagine we tell all the unhappy men here on TAM that they should just try to have a more harmonious marriage by just saying "whatever you think" and duct-taping all their negative feelings. How well do you suppose that would go over?


They would be accused of being "Nice Guys"? Or at least doormats?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Essentially what you're doing is following a suggestion to an improbable conclusion, which is to *do this at all times, in all ways, in all situations*.
> 
> Just like alcohol can be beneficial in moderation, many other things in life are the same way.


Well, in her defense, the bold sort of is what the author's entire first book was about. No matter what your husband does, you praise his efforts and make no attempt to question his skills, his actions or his authority regarding anything. Anything he does is to be praised and if he doesn't do something, you should just do it yourself and be grateful that he's doing whatever it is he does do. If he's been driving around in circles for hours, you should never point out to him the missed turn or the correct street. You remain silent and show him respect. By not "criticizing" him or trying to "control" his driving by offering your own suggestions. Just be grateful that he's the one driving and offer him praise if/when you eventually get there. Hand over 100% of family finances to your husband. Don't offer any suggestions as to how to manage the money. Eventually, he'll step up and start doing a great job at it. But, if suddenly the accounts are emptying, you don't "criticize" his efforts by asking where the money went. You thank him for his efforts or remain silently grateful that he's managing all this in the way he thinks is best. 

Essentially, it's the dynamic of a very traditional marriage where the husband is in charge and has not only all of the responsibility but also all of the control. The wife is responsible for little to nothing beyond herself, but she also has no control over much of anything and her job is to basically support him in anything he thinks is best and not to question his authority. There's a basic assumption that treating your man like a king will encourage him to treat you like a queen. And I guaranteed you that there are plenty of good men out there who would respond in just that way. But history and a brief study of human nature will prove out that plenty of kings have been brutal tyrants. At least some men will respond to being treated like a king by treating you like a serf. I'm not sure what the author recommends in that case, other than doubling down on the "respect" you're showing him.

Look, if you're a nagging harpy, you should stop being that way. But the author's directive to instead offer continual fawning praise, or even simply happy silence, no matter what your husband is doing or not doing, seems too far to the other end of things. Surely there's some middle ground between vicious, controlling, witch and fawning, biddable, doormat? Can't there just be a partnership between two functional and respectful adults who can discuss issues and come to some mutual agreement? That just seems preferable to the extremely black/white, fully binary, either-or scenario the author envisions.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Bananapeel said:


> I think the article is spot on. But....the reason women benefit from this article is because they are fixing issues that the guy should have already stepped up and taken care of if the couple wants a traditional male/female dynamic. It's the guys job to recognize and change himself if he is doing something stupid (e.g. putting bowls in the dishwasher so the water doesn't drain) and it is also his job to recognize when his woman is upset about something else and needs to feel heard and understood. If he is doing those things and paying attention to his woman's needs then most of her actions will naturally follow suit with the articles recommendations.
> 
> 
> @Thor - if I was in your situation about the grass being complained about, I'd first look and see if the complaints were valid. If I was doing a decent job that I was satisfied with, then when the wife complained I'd ask her if this was really about the grass or if there was something else on her mind that she wanted to talk about and tell her that I'd listen for as long as she needs. If it turns out it wasn't the grass then she'll feel like I listened and understood her, so the grass complaint would disappear. If it is really her just being nitpicky, then I'd shoot her down and tell her that the outside is my territory to take care of as I see fit, but she might be able to temp me to change my yard work techniques if she was in the kitchen baking me a pie. And I'd do it with a **** eating grin on my face.




My w and I are truly opposites but I think that's great. I can't remember the last time either of us complained about effort put in by the other. There aren't enough hours in the day to get everything done anyway. Why waste time criticizing?

The fact that we are so different perhaps forced us early on to accept our differences. Stupid things that might annoy others we just let go

Similar to the dish thing... my w always throws paper, plastic, wrappers etc in the sink. They get soggy and mixed in and you have to pull them out. But... that's her process when she's cooking, making lunches, etc. Unless I'm going to push her away and do everything myself, why should I care?

Recently my DD13 was watching a cooking show and they used a mixing bowl to accumulate the trash. My kid and w liked that idea and mentioned it. I responded probably the way Doyle would suggest - I smiled and said that's a great idea! Now... will she change? Who knows. But if it really bothered my, I could help next time by getting a bowl, removing the trash from the sink and put it in the bowl and set it up for her. I won't because I accept that her way isn't wrong and is of no consequence to me

I think that's all that's being advised


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Btw re the dishwasher "fails" - I say choose your battles. The fact that he's putting dishes away regularly is what's important. If you have to empty 80% of the dishes but rewash 20% you're still ahead as s team.

If he sees you continually rewashing - if he actually notices - then explain in a non accusing way "they're just not getting clean". He may say ok and end it there and then you know he's good with that solution and no point in making him care about something he doesn't see. He might also get concerned and try to fix it (guys often do that). Well then you're perfectly set up to let him help solve the problem. "Maybe we're not putting them in right - let's try changing how we do that before you have to spend time trying to fix this - you're too busy as it is". I said this not to be manipulative but that's how we feel about each other - we're glad for the effort and want to respect each other's time

Btw I'm a stickler for the dishes but I don't do them often so have no basis to complain 


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Rowan said:


> Well, in her defense, the bold sort of is what the author's entire first book was about. No matter what your husband does, you praise his efforts and make no attempt to question his skills, his actions or his authority regarding anything. Anything he does is to be praised and if he doesn't do something, you should just do it yourself and be grateful that he's doing whatever it is he does do. If he's been driving around in circles for hours, you should never point out to him the missed turn or the correct street. You remain silent and show him respect. By not "criticizing" him or trying to "control" his driving by offering your own suggestions. Just be grateful that he's the one driving and offer him praise if/when you eventually get there. Hand over 100% of family finances to your husband. Don't offer any suggestions as to how to manage the money. Eventually, he'll step up and start doing a great job at it. But, if suddenly the accounts are emptying, you don't "criticize" his efforts by asking where the money went. You thank him for his efforts or remain silently grateful that he's managing all this in the way he thinks is best.
> 
> Essentially, it's the dynamic of a very traditional marriage where the husband is in charge and has not only all of the responsibility but also all of the control. The wife is responsible for little to nothing beyond herself, but she also has no control over much of anything and her job is to basically support him in anything he thinks is best and not to question his authority. There's a basic assumption that treating your man like a king will encourage him to treat you like a queen. And I guaranteed you that there are plenty of good men out there who would respond in just that way. But history and a brief study of human nature will prove out that plenty of kings have been brutal tyrants. At least some men will respond to being treated like a king by treating you like a serf. I'm not sure what the author recommends in that case, other than doubling down on the "respect" you're showing him.
> 
> Look, if you're a nagging harpy, you should stop being that way. But the author's directive to instead offer continual fawning praise, or even simply happy silence, no matter what your husband is doing or not doing, seems too far to the other end of things. Surely there's some middle ground between vicious, controlling, witch and fawning, biddable, doormat? Can't there just be a partnership between two functional and respectful adults who can discuss issues and come to some mutual agreement? That just seems preferable to the extremely black/white, fully binary, either-or scenario the author envisions.




If that's really her message then I'm amused.

We have a very traditional marriage and I can't recall my w ever criticizing me. She feels criticized from time to time - but that's the way she sees things (FOO issues where she doesn't want anyone to ever be upset - if anything upsets me it must be her fault - but I don't take it personally). But mostly she feels appreciated by me.

I handed the finances to her completely even though I was an accountant. It was important for her to be in control of that since she takes care of the food and kids things. So I think we might follow a similar pattern that the author is suggesting, except that my w takes on many responsibilities as do I

Pretty much any theory of relationships holds try to some extent I suppose 


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

jld said:


> They would be accused of being "Nice Guys"? Or at least doormats?


No, they would be accused of being like Dug...

"One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms.", n'est-ce pas?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EasyPartner said:


> No, they would be accused of being like Dug...
> 
> "One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms.", n'est-ce pas?


Lol. He certainly not does not refrain from telling me what he thinks, EP--including what he thinks I am doing wrong.

And because he is so smart, I listen.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Essentially what you're doing is following a suggestion to an improbable conclusion, which is to do this at all times, in all ways, in all situations.
> 
> Just like alcohol can be beneficial in moderation, many other things in life are the same way.


The OP asked specifically whether this was good advice for all women. And so I am responding. No, I do not think it good advice for all women. 

Of course, she was only asking men, but I do think men will have a bias in their answers. :wink2:


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I'm pretty sure your extreme take on this isn't what most here are reading into the good advise given. I didn't hear anything about "gushing" praise or duct tape
> 
> You do realize that it is not uncommon for wives to ***** at their SO, push them away, and then build resentment and create negative feelings that they then dump on their SO, don't you? I've seen this pattern time and again but maybe you haven't and maybe this isn't for you
> 
> ...


LOL. The duct tape reference is a direct quote from the person whose advice we are supposed to be following. This isn't my spin -- it is HER words.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> They would be accused of being "Nice Guys"? Or at least doormats?


My guess is that they would be up in arms, freaking out about how unreasonable it is for men to just suck it all up and cater to their wife's whims.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Rowan said:


> Well, in her defense, the bold sort of is what the author's entire first book was about. No matter what your husband does, you praise his efforts and make no attempt to question his skills, his actions or his authority regarding anything. Anything he does is to be praised and if he doesn't do something, you should just do it yourself and be grateful that he's doing whatever it is he does do. If he's been driving around in circles for hours, you should never point out to him the missed turn or the correct street. You remain silent and show him respect. By not "criticizing" him or trying to "control" his driving by offering your own suggestions. Just be grateful that he's the one driving and offer him praise if/when you eventually get there. Hand over 100% of family finances to your husband. Don't offer any suggestions as to how to manage the money. Eventually, he'll step up and start doing a great job at it. But, if suddenly the accounts are emptying, you don't "criticize" his efforts by asking where the money went. You thank him for his efforts or remain silently grateful that he's managing all this in the way he thinks is best.
> 
> Essentially, it's the dynamic of a very traditional marriage where the husband is in charge and has not only all of the responsibility but also all of the control. The wife is responsible for little to nothing beyond herself, but she also has no control over much of anything and her job is to basically support him in anything he thinks is best and not to question his authority. There's a basic assumption that treating your man like a king will encourage him to treat you like a queen. And I guaranteed you that there are plenty of good men out there who would respond in just that way. But history and a brief study of human nature will prove out that plenty of kings have been brutal tyrants. At least some men will respond to being treated like a king by treating you like a serf. I'm not sure what the author recommends in that case, other than doubling down on the "respect" you're showing him.
> 
> Look, if you're a nagging harpy, you should stop being that way. But the author's directive to instead offer continual fawning praise, or even simply happy silence, no matter what your husband is doing or not doing, seems too far to the other end of things. Surely there's some middle ground between vicious, controlling, witch and fawning, biddable, doormat? Can't there just be a partnership between two functional and respectful adults who can discuss issues and come to some mutual agreement? That just seems preferable to the extremely black/white, fully binary, either-or scenario the author envisions.


Bingo. I want to like this again and again.

"nuff said.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

wild jade said:


> LOL. The duct tape reference is a direct quote from the person whose advice we are supposed to be following. This isn't my spin -- it is HER words.




Hmmmmm well now that I've heard it a few times I can think of one woman would might benefit from duct tape... 


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Thor said:


> I don't think it works like that. The idea is to not nag him about picking up his socks, but you aren't going to praise him for it when he eventually does it.
> 
> The idea is to stop the negative engagements and to give positive feedback. Basic human nature is to get turned off when one receives frequent negative comments. These are Love Busters as one relationship guru calls them. If you do nag him about his socks, and if you make some negative comment about how he arranges dishes in the dishwasher, and if you backseat driver his choice of parking spot, then he experiences a consistent string of negative events.
> 
> ...


So, is the reverse part of the deal there too? Will he tell her that he appreciates all that she does around the house, or if she cuts the lawn, etc.? Just wondering since I've never seen that happen.


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

Test


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheTruthHurts said:


> All I know, as a man, is that I've watched as MANY have fallen out of love with disrespectful wives over the years.
> 
> I've heard plenty of one sided conversations and it's clear
> 
> ...


I think that you are grossly misunderstanding what some are saying here. No one, not even women on this thread, has said that they object to showing respect to their husband. Respect is the bedrock of a relationship. What is being objected to, or being talked about, is the idea that women should never, ever voice their opinion or that it would be good if their husband took responsibility for some things.. like spending time with her, doing some things around the house so she was not stuck with all the housework, helped with the kids, etc. 


TheTruthHurts said:


> I suspect you simply don't rank respect as high as most men which is why you believe there is some "cost" to giving it.


Not one person has said that respect is not high on their list of important things in marriage. Respect goes both ways. Women thrive on respect every bit as much as men do. It goes both ways. Some of the women posting here are in marriages, or have been in marriages, where they gave a lot of respect. In return, they got no respect and were treated like the personal servants of their husbands.

The things suggested by Doyle only work with a reasonable man. Sometimes there is a need to do what Harley suggests and tell your spouse exactly what your needs are and that he (or she for a guy) is not meeting them and so the marriage is in danger.


TheTruthHurts said:


> If is exactly the same behavior as making sex marital hostage to some negotiation where you feel taken advantage of
> 
> Respect and sex should not be "granted" on a quid pro quo basis. To make those essential aspects of marriage bargaining chips is a huge mistake IMO
> 
> Of course, you probably have your own legitimate gripes. But maintaining a combative stance to get your needs met is rarely going to achieve what you seek


It goes both ways. Why would assume that when there are problems in a marriage, that it is the woman who is always at fault. Sometimes it’s the guy. Usually both are contributing at some level.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Rowan said:


> Well, in her defense, the bold sort of is what the author's entire first book was about. No matter what your husband does, you praise his efforts and make no attempt to question his skills, his actions or his authority regarding anything. Anything he does is to be praised and if he doesn't do something, you should just do it yourself and be grateful that he's doing whatever it is he does do. If he's been driving around in circles for hours, you should never point out to him the missed turn or the correct street. You remain silent and show him respect. By not "criticizing" him or trying to "control" his driving by offering your own suggestions. Just be grateful that he's the one driving and offer him praise if/when you eventually get there. Hand over 100% of family finances to your husband. Don't offer any suggestions as to how to manage the money. Eventually, he'll step up and start doing a great job at it. But, if suddenly the accounts are emptying, you don't "criticize" his efforts by asking where the money went. You thank him for his efforts or remain silently grateful that he's managing all this in the way he thinks is best.
> 
> Essentially, it's the dynamic of a very traditional marriage where the husband is in charge and has not only all of the responsibility but also all of the control. The wife is responsible for little to nothing beyond herself, but she also has no control over much of anything and her job is to basically support him in anything he thinks is best and not to question his authority. There's a basic assumption that treating your man like a king will encourage him to treat you like a queen. And I guaranteed you that there are plenty of good men out there who would respond in just that way. But history and a brief study of human nature will prove out that plenty of kings have been brutal tyrants. At least some men will respond to being treated like a king by treating you like a serf. *I'm not sure what the author recommends in that case, other than doubling down on the "respect" you're showing him.*
> 
> Look, if you're a nagging harpy, you should stop being that way. But the author's directive to instead offer continual fawning praise, or even simply happy silence, no matter what your husband is doing or not doing, seems too far to the other end of things. Surely there's some middle ground between vicious, controlling, witch and fawning, biddable, doormat? Can't there just be a partnership between two functional and respectful adults who can discuss issues and come to some mutual agreement? That just seems preferable to the extremely black/white, fully binary, either-or scenario the author envisions.


I have yet to find anything in which Doyle addresses a situation when this does not work. She simply makes the assumption that every man is a wonderful human and will respond in only the best way possible. Well that's just not reality.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Btw re the dishwasher "fails" - I say choose your battles. The fact that he's putting dishes away regularly is what's important. If you have to empty 80% of the dishes but rewash 20% you're still ahead as s team.


Are you referring to my post about the dishwasher? Why do you assume that he put the dishes away regularly?

After we were married about 12 years he finally left his computer games for a few minutes and set the dishwasher a few times. He did not put any dishes away. He was too busy playing on the computer. He also never swept a floor, never took care of his own children, or did anything else. But yea, I guess I should have been grateful since I was left to raise his children, my son, be the bread winner, take care of everything inside and outside of the house.

My point? The stuff being suggested by Doyle only works with some men. Some men don't give a ****. 





TheTruthHurts said:


> If he sees you continually rewashing - if he actually notices - then explain in a non accusing way "they're just not getting clean". He may say ok and end it there and then you know he's good with that solution and no point in making him care about something he doesn't see. He might also get concerned and try to fix it (guys often do that). Well then you're perfectly set up to let him help solve the problem. "Maybe we're not putting them in right - let's try changing how we do that before you have to spend time trying to fix this - you're too busy as it is". I said this not to be manipulative but that's how we feel about each other - we're glad for the effort and want to respect each other's time
> 
> Btw I'm a stickler for the dishes but I don't do them often so have no basis to complain


Some guys fix things. Some prefer to play on the computer all day and ignore their wife, children and household. He would have had to get off the computer long enough to actually talk know that something was wrong.

Again, when this the is kind of guy a woman is dealing with, Doyle's ideas do not work.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

wild jade said:


> Not only swallow, but surrender.
> 
> The more I think about it, the more I'm troubled by this idea that women should never give voice to their thoughts or feelings. I can see why it's a great deal for the man, but I wonder what sort of damage it does to the woman.


It destroys her sense of self, her humanity and many people, esp religious ones peddle this ****. I am reminded of the woman in Proverbs 31 who isn't like what is being suggested here

she is of noble character
physically strong
emotionally strong, 
she is a business woman (obviously handles money)
she takes care of her household
she buys property out of her own earnings (making social and economic decisions)
she has profitable trading (doesn't say the husband interferes and tells her what to do)
does charity work
her workers love her
her husband praises her (not the other way around!)
her children call her blessed

Yet how many Christian literature actually talk about such a woman, its all about the 'surrendered' wife this and that taking Ephesians 5 totally out of context and brain washing women in general


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Are you referring to my post about the dishwasher? Why do you assume that he put the dishes away regularly?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Actually I wasn't referring to 200 lbs of useless weight you lost when you cut lose your exH

I was responding to the composite and theoretical spouse who doesn't do exactly what you want. And some people overreact to that


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> I think that you are grossly misunderstanding what some are saying here. No one, not even women on this thread, has said that they object to showing respect to their husband. Respect is the bedrock of a relationship. What is being objected to, or being talked about, is the idea that women should never, ever voice their opinion or that it would be good if their husband took responsibility for some things.. like spending time with her, doing some things around the house so she was not stuck with all the housework, helped with the kids, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think you're mistaken. Please go back and reread. There have been several posts where women referred to having to "gush" over a h doing trivial tasks. Those posts minimize the negativity that some spouses subject their SO to, and the point is to stop that behavior and instead focus on positive reinforcement and recognize the importance of respect to a man. @turnera has said as much in MANY other threads when she advises people to read HNHN. Which I found helpful BTW

And to be clear I never really drink the koolaid that these authors and "experts" throw out there, but instead try to gain insights that I might not have had otherwise 


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Actually I wasn't referring to 200 lbs of useless weight you lost when you cut lose your exH
> 
> I was responding to the composite and theoretical spouse who doesn't do exactly what you want. And some people overreact to that


Since I was the one who brought up the dishes issue, it would make sense for me to think that you just might be referring to the post in which it was written. But, thanks for clarifying.

But my point stands, in reference to the example I gave and what others have said, what Doyle suggests does not work in many cases.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I think you're mistaken. Please go back and reread. There have been several posts where women referred to having to "gush" over a h doing trivial tasks. Those posts minimize the negativity that some spouses subject their SO to, and the point is to stop that behavior and instead focus on positive reinforcement and recognize the importance of respect to a man.


Apparently you interpret what they women are saying differently than I do.

The way I read what they are saying is that they are not talking about women who are subjecting their husbands to all kinds of disrespect and negativity and are thus not minimizing it. If that's going on, the women need to stop it.

When I was married to my son's father (before the computer gamer guy), he was the negative person picking at everything I did. Nothing I did was right according to him. Nothing I said was right according to him. Believe me, I get what it's like to live with someone who does nothing but spew negativity and who tries to control me. I lived with that for 14 years.

Instead, the way I understand what the women are saying is that the idea that they are supposed to thank their husband for every little, tiny thing that he does seems like overkill. There is a huge different between showing a man respect and thanking him for picking up his own dirty clothes off the floor. It's his mess. Why should she thank him for cleaning up his own mess?

And that's coming from me, who have always thanked my husband for anything that he did beyond his own stuff like picking up his dirty clothes. Even when he set the dishwasher with the bowls up so that they filled with water I thanked him. Now I never have been thanked for anything I did ... not once. 



TheTruthHurts said:


> @turnera has said as much in MANY other threads when she advises people to read HNHN. Which I found helpful BTW


As do I as well... post after post. One of the most important things talked about in that book and the Love Buster book is the idea that respect is very important. 



TheTruthHurts said:


> And to be clear I never really drink the koolaid that these authors and "experts" throw out there, but instead try to gain insights that I might not have had otherwise


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> All I know, as a man, is that I've watched as MANY have fallen out of love with disrespectful wives over the years.
> 
> I've heard plenty of one sided conversations and it's clear
> 
> ...


I have no problem giving respect, in fact I grew up in a household where I saw it practiced daily by my grandparents, it was great. What I have a problem with is a man expecting respect, but he himself is not respectful. Many men are takers, they will want the respect but they will keep on taking with no giving. That is what I have a huge problem with.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I would not want to be married to a controlling person, and I would not expect anyone else to enjoy it, either.

Some people are able to handle it better than others, though.

I read an article once that says that a person who is controlling is fearful and needs reassurance. If you find your spouse to be controlling, taking that attitude with them could prove productive.

I do not think it is healthy to be anything other than transparent in marriage. Put all the feelings out on the table. Sort through them together and see what you can learn from them.

Respect is earned. If you want it, earn it. 

And remember that humility and vulnerability may lead to more emotional intimacy with a partner than demands and entitlement.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Hmmmmm well now that I've heard it a few times I can think of one woman would might benefit from duct tape...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I see. You *want* respect, but feel no compunction to give it. 

Tell me, are you this way with your wife? Where only your reading of a situation counts?

If so, I may have a solution for your respect problem ....


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> I have yet to find anything in which Doyle addresses a situation when this does not work. She simply makes the assumption that every man is a wonderful human and will respond in only the best way possible. Well that's just not reality.


The impression I get from Doyle isn't so much that she thinks men are all such wonderful flawless human beings; it's that she thinks that women are shrill nagging harpies. 

From what she says, it sounds like that's exactly what she was, and good on her for changing. And I'm sure the advice she has will be helpful to other shrill nagging harpies that are sucking the life out of their men.

I don't think, however, that her advice is at all helpful for those of us who don't spend our lives controlling and criticizing our men. And, for those women who live with controlling nagging husbands, her advice could be downright devastating.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

wild jade said:


> The impression I get from Doyle isn't so much that she thinks men are all such wonderful flawless human beings; it's that she thinks that women are shrill nagging harpies.
> 
> From what she says, it sounds like that's exactly what she was, and good on her for changing. And I'm sure the advice she has will be helpful to other shrill nagging harpies that are sucking the life out of their men.
> 
> I don't think, however, that her advice is at all helpful for those of us who don't spend our lives controlling and criticizing our men. And, for those women who live with controlling nagging husbands, her advice could be downright devastating.




This I completely agree with.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

wild jade said:


> I see. You *want* respect, but feel no compunction to give it.
> 
> Tell me, are you this way with your wife? Where only your reading of a situation counts?
> 
> If so, I may have a solution for your respect problem ....




I don't really want or need respect from people other than my family.

My w would never make the snarky comments I've read here and she knows I love, value, respect and praise her.

I'm surprised by the negative reactions here, frankly. In my mind it's a given that if you aren't love busting your SO with the disrespectful behavior, this advice doesn't really apply - you're already basically following it.

Of course I never read her stuff - only the summary here.

If you were unfortunate enough to marry a boy and not a man (gamers, guys overly devoted to their fantasy football, etc.), or an abusive person - of course the answer is not to cower before them. That's absurd.

And btw I get that many marry a boy because they're a girl at the start of the relationship and expect to grow up together. And sometimes it just doesn't happen - which is in no way the fault of the one who matured 


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I don't really want or need respect from people other than my family.
> 
> My w would never make the snarky comments I've read here and she knows I love, value, respect and praise her.
> 
> ...


I did read some of her stuff ... and, well, you might understand those negative reactions a bit more if you had too. 

Her point really isn't the nice balanced one that people here are defending. She isn't just saying that it might be nice if you gave some positive reinforcement on occasion, and maybe cut down on the nagging a wee tad. She really seems to think that women's only response to their husbands should be "whatever you think" or to tell them how wonderful they are for doing the most mundane of things. It's like she thinks that submission, passivity and acceptance of all things, no matter what, is going to solve all problems.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jade,

Your post below (re: Doyle) seems exactly right to me. 

And I would not like it if M2 emulated her blog quotes such as:
- whatever you think
Or
- I hear you

If M2 spoke to me like this - it would make me think that she thinks I am too fragile to hear critical comments or disagreement.

That said, there is a big difference between sincere, constructive feedback and constantly belittling someone. 

If we both converge on the dishwasher simultaneously M2 says: Let me load. 

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. She is generally better at spatial relations than I am. 






wild jade said:


> The impression I get from Doyle isn't so much that she thinks men are all such wonderful flawless human beings; it's that she thinks that women are shrill nagging harpies.
> 
> From what she says, it sounds like that's exactly what she was, and good on her for changing. And I'm sure the advice she has will be helpful to other shrill nagging harpies that are sucking the life out of their men.
> 
> I don't think, however, that her advice is at all helpful for those of us who don't spend our lives controlling and criticizing our men. And, for those women who live with controlling nagging husbands, her advice could be downright devastating.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheTruthHurts said:


> If you were unfortunate enough to marry a boy and not a man (gamers, guys overly devoted to their fantasy football, etc.), or an abusive person - of course the answer is not to cower before them. That's absurd.


But that is what Doyle tells women to do even in these sorts of situations. 

She says that if a man does not have a job, even if he refuses to get one, that wife needs to simply accept it and find things to be thankful about. She should never, ever say anything to him about the idea that he needs to get a job. That by trusting him, it will inspire him to get a job.

She says that is a husband plays computer games all the time, or engages in other activities, and basically ignores his wife, his children, etc. the woman needs to not say anything to him about it, be grateful of any thing he does do, even if it's next to nothing. And she needs to find her own activities to fill her time. And, in the end, it's the woman's fault because she has become resistible.

She gives absolutely no advice to help a woman whose husband will not get a job, or who spends all his free time on computer games or other actives ignoring her, the children and things that need to be done.

She simply tells women in these types of bad situations to be grateful, show him a lot of respect and appreciation for any thing he does at all. That's it.

She says that the only acceptable reason for divorce is physical abuse, addictions (drugs, gambling, alcohol, etc) and cheating.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

The jld approach directed towards women instead of men . OK, if that's it I don't agree with either approach.

I do think there is some subset of men and their partners where a bit of this advice in moderation would help.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

anonmd said:


> The jld approach directed towards women instead of men . OK, if that's it I don't agree with either approach.
> 
> I do think there is some subset of men and their partners where a bit of this advice in moderation would help.


I very much believe in transparency in marriage, anonmd. It is risky and, imo, unhealthy to hide from a spouse.

That said, our spouses are under no obligation to agree with us, nor we with them. 

But understanding where each other is coming from can only be helpful.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Jade,
> 
> Your post below (re: Doyle) seems exactly right to me.
> 
> ...


If I were to speak to my husband that way, he'd wonder what was wrong with me. Why am I being so disengaged and passive aggressively patronizing? :laugh: 

As for the dishwasher, that's his territory. He's the one with the strong opinions as to how it should be loaded .....so when I help, it's just to bring the dishes a bit closer so it's easier for him to pack it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> If I were to speak to my husband that way, he'd wonder what was wrong with me. Why am I being so disengaged and passive aggressively patronizing? :laugh:
> 
> As for the dishwasher, that's his territory. He's the one with the strong opinions as to how it should be loaded .....so when I help, it's just to bring the dishes a bit closer so it's easier for him to pack it.


Yep. It would not be you, and he would know it.

So important to be ourselves in marriage.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

jld said:


> I very much believe in transparency in marriage, anonmd. It is risky and, imo, unhealthy to hide from a spouse.
> 
> That said, our spouses are under no obligation to agree with us, nor we with them.
> 
> But understanding where each other is coming from can only be helpful.


Not what I was referring to. Think inspiration.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Not what I was referring to. Think inspiration.


Please explain.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

jld said:


> Please explain.


Your near universal solution to marital issues is the claim that if only the male 'inspired' the wife all would be well. This authors seemingly universal solution is to praise the husband and therefore 'inspire' better behavior. 

I'm sure it works sometimes, not a universal solution though.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Anon,
The way this comes across to me - this author - she's more suggesting that women self censor so that they prevent themselves from demoralizing their husbands by being - FILL IN THE BLANK 

The fill in the blank is really critical. 

I would be demoralized if my partner was regularly self censoring. 

The main thing I've sort of made my peace with is that you don't get to turn partner traits on and off at your convenience. 

So there are moments (for example when I'm merging into heavy high speed traffic) where it would be nice if M2 might briefly delay sharing whatever has popped into her head. 

Thing is, her lack of filter is one of my favorite things about her. People love 2-3 year old communication because they have language and observational skills and NO filter. They are delightfully transparent and spontaneous. 

Imagine an adult - who is smart - observant - has exceptional language skills - with that same ability be totally unfiltered. 

But for this to really work - you do have to be a good fit for each other. 





anonmd said:


> Your near universal solution to marital issues is the claim that if only the male 'inspired' the wife all would be well. This authors seemingly universal solution is to praise the husband and therefore 'inspire' better behavior.
> 
> I'm sure it works sometimes, not a universal solution though.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> Anon,
> 
> The way this comes across to me - this author - she's more suggesting that women self censor so that they prevent themselves from demoralizing their husbands by being - FILL IN THE BLANK
> 
> ...




Ha! I'm going to use that excuse from now on! I'm no longer insensitive nor boorish nor chauvinistic - I'm "delightfully transparent and spontaneous"! Brilliant!


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Interesting, your comment is picking up on #2, relinquish control of people you can't control - yes? 

That one barely registered with me, guess I'm not married to one of 'those women' . Also why I dismissed JLD's comment on hiding things, not interested in my wife hiding anything and I took nothing out of the article about being less than honest although now that you point out #2 - I see it. #4 not much either, I think respect is very important for men but my wife is not 'focused on my shortcomings' either. 

#1 would be a huge add followed by #3, #5 and #6. Either in that order of importance or #1,#5,#3,#6 - not sure which way. #1 far more than any of the others though. 






MEM2020 said:


> Anon,
> The way this comes across to me - this author - she's more suggesting that women self censor so that they prevent themselves from demoralizing their husbands by being - FILL IN THE BLANK
> 
> The fill in the blank is really critical.
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TT,

The thing you posted in this thread that most jumped out at me is below (the bold font is my doing). I can't imagine a marriage that is free of criticism. If my partner never criticized me I would be afraid that they were afraid of how I might react. 

-----------

We have a very traditional marriage *and I can't recall my w ever criticizing me.* She feels criticized from time to time - but that's the way she sees things (FOO issues where she doesn't want anyone to ever be upset - if anything u





TheTruthHurts said:


> Ha! I'm going to use that excuse from now on! I'm no longer insensitive nor boorish nor chauvinistic - I'm "delightfully transparent and spontaneous"! Brilliant!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Rowan said:


> I just realized that Doyle is also the author of The Surrendered Wife. I'm guessing The Empowered Wife  was designed to sound less objectionable to a broader audience than that earlier title did.
> 
> While I think there are some valid points to be made in her work, I also find that sort of tone to a marriage to be potentially problematic. Most people will treat you how you allow them to. Not being a controlling nag who mothers her husband as much or more than she does the children, is one thing. But surrendering all decision making and all control of every facet of the marriage and your life and your children's lives, often proves to be something else entirely. *Sucking it up constantly - no matter how poorly your husband is handling something - so as not to damage your man's apparently exceptionally fragile ego with anything that might remotely be construed as a criticism, just results in becoming a doormat.* Not every man will be so grateful for his wife's happy devotion and constant admiration that he'll automatically meet her unspoken needs or start doing his share of the work. Some will just take it for granted and continue on their merry way as the wife is left with more and more and more on her plate. After all, marriage to a woman who requires nothing of him while she hands over total control of every facet of their lives is totally working for him, so why on earth would he want to do anything differently? Besides, it's not like she's complaining or anything.....



So damn true!

While I was trying to fix my marriage I was a Surrendered Wife convert. Here is what worked. State exactly what you want and then shut the hell up. I was always afraid to state what I wanted because I didn't want to sound like my mother, who was a critical nag. Did this lead to my needs being met better or more often? NO! I *simply found another way to tamp down my need in favor of someone else's need to not meet mine.*

But here's what I ultimately learned. Some men just can't cut it. It's really that simple. You may have married a snowflake and if that's the case you better get used to going without, doing for yourself, or resign yourself to being his mommy.

I use the example of cooking a meal for several people. Everyone has different tastes and preferences, and within those tastes and preferences some may like they way you've prepared the food but not everyone. A good cook asks for feedback to see what can be changed for a broader appeal and what should stay the same because one nitpick doesn't mean the whole meal was crap. A good cook is not a snowflake and can take criticism but more importantly, admits outlout that this particular meal or recipe was a total failure. If your husband thinks everyone should pretend his lack luster meal was delicious, he sucks as a cook, right? If you can't tell him the meat was over cooked and that you prefer the pasta to be al dente -because snowflake will be insulted- you've married a man who simply can't cut it and you should resign yourself to something other than getting your needs met...by him.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> The things suggested by Doyle only work with a reasonable man.


So true.

Not much you can do with an unreasonable person.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

My daughter is living with her fiance, a truly wonderful guy who does more than than his share.

She really loves him.

But, like me she's a bit OCD and gets bothered by small stuff like sometimes leaving his clothes on the floor.

When she asked me what to do about the fact that he's always asking her where stuff is in the kitchen, I said "take a moment to think about the last wonderful thing he did for you and then tell him where he can find what he's looking for".

When she asked what to do about him leaving clothes on the floor, I said "pick them up and put them in the laundry basket for him".

But..... this is a great guy who contributes more than his fair share to the relationship. If he was a loser, I wouldn't give my daughter the same advice.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> TT,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You're probably right - she is 100% afraid of anyone in the family getting upset over anything. FU FOO issues - alcoholic family (reformed but that doesn't matter) and she was the peace maker.

But that's who she is. She's great in almost every other way so I accept her this way. I do ask in many ways about things to get her to open up if there's an issue and that works pretty well. I poll her often to be sure she's happy and she says she is. We text a lot during the day with lots of emojis and now bitmojis which are cute so she definitely emotionally communicates.

But we both are big proponents of never criticizing your SO in public - in front of family even. Perhaps having that type of respect for each other publicly carries over.

We both work exceptionally hard and share the same values regarding money, family, work, savings, etc. So there is no real need to criticize. Instead, we ask for things of each other, make suggestions, etc.

Maybe we're lucky but we're also pretty easy going no drama relationship people


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TheTruthHurts said:


> If you were unfortunate enough to marry a boy and not a man (gamers, guys overly devoted to their fantasy football, etc.), or an abusive person - of course the answer is not to cower before them. That's absurd.
> 
> And btw I get that many marry a boy because they're a girl at the start of the relationship and expect to grow up together. And sometimes it just doesn't happen - which is in no way the fault of the one who matured


There are so many different situtations.

No all guys (or gals) who become obsessed with things like gamming, fantasy football, etc are boys. Some are men who end up taking a very unexpected turn. 

When I dated and married the guy who ended up spending all his time gaming/internet-surfing, he was 45 years old. Had worked since he was about 15 years old. Was in the Army for 10 years. Then got his degree while working fulltime. He was the primary bread winner in his previous marriage with 3 children. When I married him he had a very good career earning 6 figures in the fortune 50 technology firm. He was a very active father, had sole custody of his 3 children after the divorce.

He was laid off in the 2nd year we were married and then he turned into the guy I talk about here.

Like I said, there are a lot of different situations. And Doyle's suggestions really only work in situations where the guy has no real problems, he's a solid good guy and the wife is an overbearing nag.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Your near universal solution to marital issues is the claim that if only the male 'inspired' the wife all would be well. This authors seemingly universal solution is to praise the husband and therefore 'inspire' better behavior.
> 
> I'm sure it works sometimes, not a universal solution though.


It can't hurt for a man to improve his character, which is my idea of how to inspire his wife.

Can't say the same for Ms. Doyle's approach.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ah yes the children of alcoholics - COAs.

The active solicitation of feedback is a beautiful thing. Especially important with a COA. 

Generally this works best if your ability to read tone, body language and facial expressions is highly developed. 




TheTruthHurts said:


> You're probably right - she is 100% afraid of anyone in the family getting upset over anything. FU FOO issues - alcoholic family (reformed but that doesn't matter) and she was the peace maker.
> 
> But that's who she is. She's great in almost every other way so I accept her this way. I do ask in many ways about things to get her to open up if there's an issue and that works pretty well. I poll her often to be sure she's happy and she says she is. We text a lot during the day with lots of emojis and now bitmojis which are cute so she definitely emotionally communicates.
> 
> ...


----------



## Warrior73 (Jun 25, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> So damn true!
> 
> While I was trying to fix my marriage I was a Surrendered Wife convert. Here is what worked. State exactly what you want and then shut the hell up. I was always afraid to state what I wanted because I didn't want to sound like my mother, who was a critical nag. Did this lead to my needs being met better or more often? NO! I *simply found another way to tamp down my need in favor of someone else's need to not meet mine.*
> 
> ...


Constructive criticism never hurt anyone...it's when it goes further is when it causes a problem...and that goes both ways.


----------



## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Rowan said:


> I just realized that Doyle is also the author of The Surrendered Wife. I'm guessing The Empowered Wife  was designed to sound less objectionable to a broader audience than that earlier title did.
> 
> While I think there are some valid points to be made in her work, I also find that sort of tone to a marriage to be potentially problematic. Most people will treat you how you allow them to. Not being a controlling nag who mothers her husband as much or more than she does the children, is one thing. But surrendering all decision making and all control of every facet of the marriage and your life and your children's lives, often proves to be something else entirely. Sucking it up constantly - no matter how poorly your husband is handling something - so as not to damage your man's apparently exceptionally fragile ego with anything that might remotely be construed as a criticism, just results in becoming a doormat. Not every man will be so grateful for his wife's happy devotion and constant admiration that he'll automatically meet her unspoken needs or start doing his share of the work. Some will just take it for granted and continue on their merry way as the wife is left with more and more and more on her plate. After all, marriage to a woman who requires nothing of him while she hands over total control of every facet of their lives is totally working for him, so why on earth would he want to do anything differently? Besides, it's not like she's complaining or anything.....


Totally agree here! I have been married twice and in both relationships I was in love and wanted to please my partner. Whenever I would take on a project so husband would not have to do it in order for us to spend more time together, as that essentially is really what I have wanted, was quality time, it seemed they just expected it of me and were not appreciative. The more I did, the more they realized I would do and rather than seeing I was a person whose needs needed to be met too, it seemed more about them.

I have a friend who is committed to her marriage and reads nothing but religious material to try and help her thru life and her marriage. Her husband is always right no matter what and she will not go up against his desires. Her husband does not give her the time of day and I have never heard him say one nice thing to her or about her, if anything, he teases and makes fun....reminds me alot of the marriage I got out of. In my mind, she is a doormat and very unhappy as I was in my marriage.

I think we have to be open, we have to be honest, we do have to express our desires for the relationship. If the man tries and resorts back to old habits or just flat ignores meeting the needs of his wife I think it is because the man is not capable. What I find interesting in all of the courting and the relationship process is how willing two people are willing to meet one another's needs in the beginning when love is new. In the getting to know each other phase emotions and feelings run high but once we get comfortable with one another it seems things change.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Warrior73 said:


> Constructive criticism never hurt anyone...it's when it goes further is when it causes a problem...and that goes both ways.


That was the big point of The Surrendered Wife. Tell your husband what you want, not what you don't want.

"I want you to be affectionate every day."
"I want you to make plans for us to do fun things together."
"I want you to clean up after yourself, specifically in the bathroom."

Instead of

"You only touch me affectionately when you want sex."
"You would spend every free minute watching TV if I didn't make plans for us."
"You are a slob and I'm tired of picking up after you!"


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