# I am back and it gets worse



## Thorburn

I thought things were going fine in R. Then several months ago something happened that did not make sense. We moved into our new home (yea I was warned). We went to our other house to get it ready for renters. We drove almost two hours and I took a route that took us about a mile from the OM's house. My wife said she would never come this way. Then a month later my wife calls me at 5 P.M on a thursday. She says she is at our antique business (almost 2 1/2 hours away). I said "what", we do this together and we could have gone on the weekend. she said, "I did not tell you because I knew you would get mad". I said no, you are calling me because you know you will not be home in time to hide what you did". She then told me she drove up the route I took. When she got home I said isn't it something that you are on this route and near the OM's house at the time he gets off work. I said your timeline is all wrong. There is no way you ever stay at the antique business that long and I accuse her of meeting up with the OM. She got mad and said I screwed up and said "I am sorry" I said what do you mean you screwed up, those are words of a cheater. If you were hiding the fact that you went to the antique business from me you would say something different not "I screwed up".

All the trust i built up was gone. I went into investigation mode.

I have had a bad feeling for a while and this morning I put a VAR in her car. She said she had to go to work. She had sex with a stranger and was bragging to him that there are other guys. I played the recording for her and she lied saying she was talking about her business. There is more but I called her family and they are shocked. They want to hear the recording. She packed up and left to go to her evil sister. We talked for two hours an she says I am wrong and she is tired of me accusing her. I said I am tired of her lying and cheating. She said the recording is not what I say it is an that I am paranoid. I told her to tell me the truth and she said she did not do anything and that I am making it up. 

UNBELIEVABLE. I have dead solid proof and she is lying. After she had sex with the stranger she is telling him that there are other guys. Her brother wants to hear the recording and I will let him hear it.


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## Shaggy

Make a copy and give it her family.

I'm so very sorry it has gone this way. Do you think she ever stopped cheating? It sounds like she just changed how she played the game to throw off your detection.

Any idea on how she's been meeting these guys? 

And you know the drill, find the OM and expose.

STD tests for you.


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## PHTlump

Sorry man. At least you have the iron-clad proof you need to get rid of her and move on.

Good luck.


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## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Make a copy and give it her family.
> 
> I'm so very sorry it has gone this way. Do you think she ever stopped cheating? It sounds like she just changed how she played the game to throw off your detection.
> 
> Any idea on how she's been meeting these guys?
> 
> And you know the drill, find the OM and expose.
> 
> STD tests for you.


Don't know shaggy. I am listening to the recording now. It is heart breaking.


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## Thorburn

Is there anyone who can help me clean up the recording. She has music playing and some things are hard to hear. I have enough proof but I would like to get this clean and clear.


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## Shaggy

So when she was at her sisters was she really hooking up? Could it be that her and her sister are into swinging?

Perhaps that's why she was so hesitant to tell you about it?


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## Thor

Damm. I'm sorry for this turn of events and for your anguish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump

MAGIX Audio Cleaning Lab – audio converter


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## 2asdf2

I am sorry you've come to this. After all you've experienced, this latest episode has the signs of the straw on the camel.

I hope that is not the case, and that it ends up being no more than a blip on the screen.

My WW was the same. Even with a recording from an OM who detailed the year-long EA/PA affair, she still denied she'd done anything. My people were so disgusted that they did not want to hear the tape.


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## MovingAhead

Thorburn, I am very sorry for you. Focus on yourself and get better. You seem like you will be much better off without her. Don't beat yourself up listening to the recording. Make copies and move on.


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## Thorburn

I loved her.


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## Shaggy

Call your sons. You need them around you now


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## Vega

Thorburn said:


> She got mad and said I screwed up and said "I am sorry" I said what do you mean you screwed up, those are words of a cheater. If you were hiding the fact that you went to the antique business from me you would say something different not "I screwed up".
> 
> BEFORE you accuse her of this, I would be reeeeeeally careful. Cheaters can 'screw up' without 'screwing'. And saying that she "screwed up" doesn't necessarily mean that she cheated again. She may easily have meant that she 'screwed up' by driving by his house. The point is, please don't accuse her without proof.
> 
> She had sex with a stranger and was bragging to him that there are other guys. I played the recording for her and she lied saying she was talking about her business.


How do you know she had sex with a stranger? What was on the recording that convinced you that she had sex with a stranger? 

Vega


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## 2asdf2

Thorburn said:


> I loved her.


I know you do. 

Stay calm. You've done it before.

Don't be tempted by the booze.

Talk to your boys. They love you and are with you on this.


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## bryanp

I think you need to ask yourself why you would love a woman who has sex with strangers and has affairs that totally humiliate you as a man and a spouse? Why do you love a woman who totally puts your health at major risk for STD's and plays you for a fool? It is time for you to open your eyes and you get out of the fog. You need to do at least the following immediately:
1. Get tested for STD's.
2. Contact an attorney immediately.
3. Protect your finances immediately.


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## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Call your sons. You need them around you now


My oldest son is living with us and is mad at me saying it is my fault. He is 28 and is special needs. He says I am a fuc*ing liar. I am not mad at him he can't understand.

My youngest son (26 years old). I called him. He told his mother several months ago if she ever did this again he would not talk to her. He called her after I talked to him tonight and reamed her out and said he does not ever want to talk to her again.

My wife said, "I will never forgive you for doing this", "I did nothing wrong". I said you brought this into your life and stop blaming me for your behavior.


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## Thorburn

I am not going to the booze. I am heading to the VA hospital to talk to someone. I am a professional counselor and know I need someone to talk to tonight and I will be heading out shortly.


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## Thorburn

I will be back on later.


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## Shaggy

Is she still sticking to her story like she tried last time you caught her?


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## cantthinkstraight

Can you clearly hear sex going on in the recordings?

What do you clearly hear her saying?

Is there any way you can go to the shop she said she was at
and verify if she had been there? (phone records during that time, cameras, receipts, objects moved, etc.)


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## phillybeffandswiss

Thorburn said:


> My wife said, "I will never forgive you for doing this", "I did nothing wrong".


You should've said "You are probably right look where forgiveness and doing nothing wrong got me!"

Ridiculous, go get your help and take care of yourself.


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## Affaircare

Thorburn~

You on? You okay? It's late-ish, I'm a nightowl, and I'm just checking. The first night is the hardest...ya know?


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## daisygirl 41

Thorburn,
My heart goes out to you. For all go us who are reconciling this is our worst nightmare. I can only imagine how you are feeling today.

Look after yourself now and just take it a day at a time.
(((((((Hugs)))))))
DG


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## cledus_snow

your wife has a serious problem. might be a SLA(sex/love) addict.

i don't know how you reconcile after this. you've tried your darndest to save this marriage only to wind up back to square one.


i just don't see another reconciliaton. i am sorry.


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## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Is she still sticking to her story like she tried last time you caught her?


Back. She is sticking to her story that I am making this all up in my head.


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## Thorburn

Vega said:


> How do you know she had sex with a stranger? What was on the recording that convinced you that she had sex with a stranger?
> 
> Vega


Ok she did not know him long. We just moved here is October


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## Thorburn

cantthinkstraight said:


> Can you clearly hear sex going on in the recordings?
> 
> What do you clearly hear her saying?
> 
> Is there any way you can go to the shop she said she was at
> and verify if she had been there? (phone records during that time, cameras, receipts, objects moved, etc.)


I have over three hours of her with him


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## Thorburn

Got tested for STD's and they gave me a high dose of anti-biotics.

My blood pressure is sky high.

I am relatively calm. I knew this was going on. The om asked where she keeps her phone and she says upstairs in a bag. I asked her if she has a phone and she said no. I have been looking for a phone for months.


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## EleGirl

Oh man, I'm so sorry to hear this. 

If you have your evidence and it's solid, she can lie all she wants. You know the truth.

Have you made copies of the recording and put them in safe places?


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## Thorburn

EleGirl said:


> Oh man, I'm so sorry to hear this.
> 
> If you have your evidence and it's solid, she can lie all she wants. You know the truth.
> 
> Have you made copies of the recording and put them in safe places?


Not yet. I found my other VAR that she found back in early 2012 with the GPS that my son had on her car. I will make recordings later and try to get them cleaned up. But there is enough the second time they had sex that it is very clear.


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## missmolly

Thorburn said:


> I loved her.


I totally understand this


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## Numb-badger

I'm sorry you're here again man.

You have solid proof and remember, don't allow her lies to get under your skin. She's doing that to protect her own image. Cheaters, even though they know they're doing wrong, don't like to be viewed as 'bad guys' or 'cheap'.

Stay strong


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## sigma1299

I'm sorry Thorburn. Stay strong, take care of yourself. I swear I don't understand why cheaters do this kind of crap.


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## Hardtohandle

I'm very sorry. 

Stay Strong. I know its easier said then done.


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## strugglinghusband

Just sad......so sorry man.


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## cantmove

I'm so sorry Thorburn. Nobody deserves this. I will never understand cheaters. Not as long as I live.


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## Remains

Ditto.

Sorry to hear your R is false. Such a shame. 

You came here about the same time as me along with a few others. I hoped we would all be good. I don't think mine is good either....we are still working on the 1st one! 

Take care and look forward.......I hope you can do that soon. I guess you have better armour 2nd time around?


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## Almostrecovered

ugh

so sorry my man, but at least now you're an "expert" and will do what's needed


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## SomedayDig

Yesterday was 11 months since Dday. We've both been working pretty hard on reconciliation. This is the scariest thread I've read here in a while. I feel confident in Regret's actions...it's just this kind of story scares the ever living F outta me.


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## Thorburn

I listened to most of the four hours of recording. She never made it to work. Somewhere between three to four hours with the dude in her car. Sounds like they had sex. Not real clear at one point. Then an hour later after she was bad talking me it went like this.

Her (not clear) how do you want it.
Him: Like last time
Her: Back door, laughing
Then her moaning and having an orgasm. 

My youngest son talked to her sister and cousin. Her sister is the one I call evil but she has gotten some religion. She said to my son, you mother can only stay here if she tells me everything. My niece told my son you mom is not like that your dad is making it up. My son said, my mom is one sick and twisted person and no my dad is not making it up, he has solid proof.


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## Thorburn

I have good meds that I had not been taking for my PTSD for serving in combat. I took them today and feeling ok. The edge is off and I have two clients that I will see (combat Vets) and then I am cancelling all my appointment for today, tomorrow and perhaps Monday.


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## LetDownNTX

Thorburn, Im so sorry to hear of this discovery. Its bad enough to know its happening and see the proof but to hear it must be heart wrenching.

Praying for strength for you!


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## Kasler

I'm so sorry Thorburn. 

I know this sucks, but you gotta get out infront of your wife. Shes gonna try to turn people against you and you don't need that right now. Tell them you have a raw version and am trying to make a cleaned one so its more clear, but they need to hear that recording asap.


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## Shaggy

Have you been able to the burner phone upstairs in the bag or do you think she has it with her?


How did she find new guys so quickly at the new location? Does she post on Craigslist ? I can't imagine she had the opportunity to go out to bars at night. Where and how did she first meet these new guys?

You've clearly been living in a totally false R. Your wife is a very dedicated liar and cheater to have continued after what she pulled before and how you caught her.

Without a doubt you have gone far far beyond any reasonable level of extending the chance for her to be in the marriage. She's gone equally beyond reason to destroy it.


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## vi_bride04

So sorry. No one should have to hear what you heard...and going through R no less. I just can't believe the the fricken mindset of these cheaters. You have proof!! She is still lying and denying...why?!! 

I would make copies of everything that you have and expose just for everyone to hear the truth. Its going to get ugly with her no matter what and she is already trying to play the victim, "I have a mean husband who makes stuff up" b.s.

My heart goes out to you during this extremely emotional time.


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## tom67

And now she is going to lose everything husband kids hope it was worth it. With this proof now there is no weaseling out of this. So freaking sad.


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## Jasel

Kasler said:


> I'm so sorry Thorburn.
> 
> I know this sucks, but you gotta get out infront of your wife. Shes gonna try to turn people against you and you don't need that right now. Tell them you have a raw version and am trying to make a cleaned one so its more clear, but they need to hear that recording asap.


Seriously. I'd play that recording for everyone who is willing to listen.


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## strugglinghusband

vi_bride04 said:


> So sorry. No one should have to hear what you heard...and going through R no less. I just can't believe the the fricken mindset of these cheaters. You have proof!! She is still lying and denying...*why?!! *
> 
> Becuase she's messed up in the head, this goes beyond a cheater, just evil, plain down right.. evil
> 
> I would make copies of everything that you have and expose just for everyone to hear the truth. Its going to get ugly with her no matter what and she is already trying to play the victim, "I have a mean husband who makes stuff up" b.s.
> 
> My heart goes out to you during this extremely emotional time.


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## Shift

Wow... Just wow. Sorry you're in such a horrible spot. On a positive note, you can walk away from this wrecked relationship completely guilt free knowing you tried to R.


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## canttrustu

Thorburn. Saying "sorry" just doesnt cut it does it man? So I wont, I will say that you dont deserve this and I hope you can find some peace with knowing you did all you could to save your family. 

Try to stay "out of the mud" with her. You know what you heard. Go with that. You dont need her admission. Lean on your son- he's a big boy and he knows how hard you've tried to save this. 

Is he married- I cant remember what you told me.

I know its terrible timing but you have to start focusing on protecting yourself(and your son) financially. Sad day Thorburn. 

(((((CTU Hugs-long ones)))))))))


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## Jasel

vi_bride04 said:


> So sorry. No one should have to hear what you heard...and going through R no less. I just can't believe the the fricken mindset of these cheaters. You have proof!! She is still lying and denying...why?!!
> time.


Reminds me of this episode of cheaters when this guy suspected his fiance was cheating on him. It was the usual episode with the host gathering the evidence and showing the other guy hanging out with his fiance going out on dates, leaving his place, etc even while she's on the phone with her fiance lying about what she's doing. They even have video of them getting busted by the cops for ****ing in the car in the middle of the night.

So they confront the fiance while she's with the OM at some carnival and she's denying, denying, denying. She even asks to see the video of them getting busted by the cops and they show it to her. She says "That's not me". In the follow up they talk to the Betrayed Fiance and he's moved on to another woman and was grateful he discovered what he did before the marriage. They even got the POSOM to finally admit she was cheating on her fiance, laughed about it, he helped her get away with it, and was bragging about how wild she was in bed. But when they followed up with the cheating fiance SHE WAS STILL DENYING IT AND SAID SHE STILL WAS WILLING TO MARRY HER EX-FIANCE!!

Sorry I didn't mean to threadjack but I just wanted to point that out. Some people will lie to the bitter end.

Kind of reminds me of that old Shaggy song "It Wasn't Me"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g5Hz17C4is


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## Shaggy

She's also very knowledgable about how to hide affairs, how to find partners. Burner phones, meet ups. She got sloppy on her time once and he caught it.

Who did she learn all this from? Someone has taught her. Which means there might be a resource that'd also going to be coaching her on the D and games she's going to play there too.

I know it's said a lot, but thorburn, change the locks at hone. You o not want her in the house cleansing it.


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## Shadow_Nirvana

vi_bride04 said:


> So sorry. No one should have to hear what you heard...and going through R no less. I just can't believe the the fricken mindset of these cheaters. You have proof!! She is still lying and denying...why?!!


Her rationalization hamster is now immune to the silver bullet of reality.


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## vi_bride04

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Her rationalization hamster is now immune to the silver bullet of reality.


And if this is the case, Thorburn really needs to start getting ready to protect himself, especially in the financial area. 

Shaggy had a great idea of changing the locks. The woman is batsh!t crazy who knows what the hell she will do. False domestic violence claims? Obviously she doesn't mind lying even when the facts are right there so she won't mind lying to a cop.


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## Kasler

Shaggy said:


> She's also very knowledgable about how to hide affairs, how to find partners. Burner phones, meet ups. She got sloppy on her time once and he caught it.
> 
> Who did she learn all this from? Someone has taught her. Which means there might be a resource that'd also going to be coaching her on the D and games she's going to play there too.
> 
> I know it's said a lot, but thorburn, change the locks at hone. You o not want her in the house cleansing it.


Good catch. 

Indeed thorburn, her aptitude at this is uncannily good. She is getting advice somewhere, most likely on a forum thats the opposite of TAM.

TB, she will deny to the end, and if you don't take initiative she will have you as the bad guy. 

Change locks, start putting your paychecks in an account owned solely by you.


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## tom67

You know the routine Thorburn separate finances asap and like others have said keep all the proof and other docs secure.


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## tom67

Keep another VAR on you when dealing with her she may want you kicked out of the house on a phony dv charge.


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## missmolly

Thorburn, 
will you marry me?


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## Shaggy

You might want to move this to the private section. If she's been coached, especially if she has been reading over on that other site, she maybe reading here too.


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## Entropy3000

Wow. So sorry to hear. All the graphical stuff aside, if you heard nothing but her spending three hours in her car with another man and skipping work to do it that would be plenty. So if anyone challenges what you heard, it really does not matter. She had no business being with this guy alone like that period.


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## canttrustu

Entropy3000 said:


> Wow. So sorry to hear. All the graphical stuff aside, if you heard nothing but her spending three hours in her car with another man and skipping work to do it that would be plenty. So if anyone challenges what you heard, it really does not matter. She had no business being with this guy alone like that period.


Yes. The secrecy is enough. Doesnt matter if they were talking about fashion. Fact is she lied to you to be with him. BIG ASS problem.


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## vi_bride04

canttrustu said:


> Yes. The secrecy is enough. Doesnt matter if they were talking about fashion. Fact is she lied to you to be with him. BIG ASS problem.


Especially while in R, and especially with the past!!!! 

The entitlement of people like her really grinds my gears...


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## Hope1964

Wow. This is so heartbreaking. My heart goes out to you, Thorburn. Stay strong and HUGE hugs.


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## warlock07

I was warning you all along in your older threads that you are doing a false R Thor. Sorry, i really wish i was wrong. Your wife is a broken person. And you are heavily co-dependent on her. Please take care. 

Does she know you have proof ?


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## Almostrecovered

warlock07 said:


> Does she know you have proof ?


yes and she still denies it despite how damning it is


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## bfree

Thorburn, take care of yourself. Make you the first and only priority right now. I am so very sorry but at least now the wondering is over.


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## warlock07

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=au...q=0&oq=audacity+clea&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## SomedayDig

warlock07 said:


> audacity clean up audio - Google Search


Great & *FREE* program!


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## Thorburn

warlock07 said:


> I was warning you all along in your older threads that you are doing a false R Thor. Sorry, i really wish i was wrong. Your wife is a broken person. And you are heavily co-dependent on her. Please take care.
> 
> Does she know you have proof ?


I played part of it to her. It was not very clear but parts were. I did not have the opportunity to listen to most of it and I should have waited and not shared a thing with her. She denied things even when they were plain. I did not hear most of until I was in the E.R. The part of the dark side is very clear. 

Sick. 

Got tested for STD's this morning. 

Will be taking to an attorney soon.


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## canttrustu

Thorburn said:


> I played part of it to her. It was not very clear but parts were. I did not have the opportunity to listen to most of it and I should have waited and not shared a thing with her. She denied things even when they were plain. I did not hear most of until I was in the E.R. The part of the dark side is very clear.
> 
> Sick.
> 
> Got tested for STD's this morning.
> 
> Will be taking to an attorney soon.


Thorburn, this just plain ass sucks. Im wishing I had better words for you. 

Hang in there. It will get better. You wont hurt forever. The end is in sight. Take care of yourself. Eat and sleep as best you can. 

again- Hugs.


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## Acabado

I'm so sorry Thorburn.
Give up, man, there's nothing to can do. Tried everything. She's just a sick individual.


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## Affaircare

By way of a short share, I received in the mail a certain article of intimate clothing from a very, VERY expensive, fancy hotel that said "Dear Mrs. X....you left this here on your last visit" Only problem was, the hubby and I had never BEEN to that hotel together. Now, hubby and I ran a business together doing computers for the restaurant in that hotel, and we helped them from time to time with their network, integrating their reservation system...that kind of thing. So on the pretense of doing some work on the restaurant system, I viewed some parking lot security tapes and sure enough...one night when he was supposed to be out of town for a late night 'service call,' I see on the tapes him and OW walking INTO the fancy hotel. That night in the reservation it says "Mr. and Mrs. X" and there is a charge card payment on our statement. AND the next morning, I see him and and OW walking OUT OF the fancy hotel all lovey, dovey and kissing, etc. 

So I copied the evidence onto a vhs, made a few copies of the tape (obviously, this was "back in the day"), included copies of the credit card receipt and the hotel registry, and gave one copy to him to confront him. I put other copies in a safe at home, in a locked drawer in an undisclosed location, and in a safe deposit box at the bank. 

UNBELIEVABLY, after watching the tape of himself and the OW going into the hotel at night .... and coming out of the hotel in the morning --and it is security tape so it is timestamped-- he had the BRASS CAJONES to ask me "How did you do that?" :scratchhead: "Ummm, how did I do what?" 

*"Doctor a tape to make it look like I cheated. That wasn't me and I want to know how you did that." * 

Swear to God!  

Thorburn, you have the proof that you have. You know what you have. She is going to deny with the evidence right in her face, and I seriously have no idea why some people are like that! It's as if admitting they made a mistake and did something wrong is the end of the world!! Anyways, just ignore her and proceed with what you know you have to do. Is there anything that you know you need to do to protect yourself that you're having trouble motivating yourself to do? Let us help you. 

Thinking of you today....


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## C-man

I second the recommendation for Audacity. It is a great program - takes a little while to get good with all of the filters - if you have any questions feel free to PM me. I am by no means an expert but am good enough to use if for my purposes. 

Sorry for what you're going through Thorburn.


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## Thorburn

I am down loading the file now. It is going into a wma file and will take over four hours.


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## C-man

Note - for any recording it is hard to get rid of music, unless you have the exact music and you can then subtract it from the sound file - very difficult to do.

Audacity makes it easy to get rid of a lot of noise and to boost sounds (like voices). Comes with all sorts of filters to do this. You can splice and edit files easily too. If you're trying to decipher something - you can put that section on loop so it plays repeatedly.

Ideally - use the program with headphones or a good set of earphones. You will be surprised what you can extract from what you thought was a useless sound file.


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## Thorburn

C-man said:


> Note - for any recording it is hard to get rid of music, unless you have the exact music and you can then subtract it from the sound file - very difficult to do.
> 
> Audacity makes it easy to get rid of a lot of noise and to boost sounds (like voices). Comes with all sorts of filters to do this. You can splice and edit files easily too. If you're trying to decipher something - you can put that section on loop so it plays repeatedly.
> 
> Ideally - use the program with headphones or a good set of earphones. You will be surprised what you can extract from what you thought was a useless sound file.


So if I get the cd from my wife's car (might be impossible at this point) she was playing the red hot chili peppers will this help


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## sunshinetoday

Sorry this happened to you Thor. 

You will make it.


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## alte Dame

This is horrible. So sorry.

Your W is a broken person. If we try to have compassion and be there for broken people, it can break us. I hope you save yourself and your children now.


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## C-man

Thorburn said:


> So if I get the cd from my wife's car (might be impossible at this point) she was playing the red hot chili peppers will this help


I don't think it's worth the effort so I wouldn't worry about it. You don't need an absolutely clean sound file - you just need to eliminate some noise and boost the frequencies that have what's important.

The most important thing is to download your original files and keep original copies. That way - you can always go back to the original files if you screw them up with your editing.

With Audacity - I find that simple amplification can do wonders - then run them through some of the filters to clean up noise (eg LowPass filter tends to eliminate noise). If there's a constant noise (like a white noise) - you can sample the background and then use that as a subtractive filter. 

For voices, I found that the equalization filter worked well at boosting/decreasing certain frequencies to isolate the voices. Once you find an equalization setting for the particular voice, you can save that profile and apply it to other recordings. 

It takes time to learn - but once you get used to what works in your situation you can work quickly.

The best thing for me was to isolate certain segments that you're interested in and then play it on loop after you apply certain filters. It's trial and error. There is a good "UNDO" button so you can always go back. 

If you have any other question, I am happy to help.


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## CleanJerkSnatch

Thorburn said:


> I listened to most of the four hours of recording. She never made it to work. Somewhere between three to four hours with the dude in her car. Sounds like they had sex. Not real clear at one point. Then an hour later after she was bad talking me it went like this.
> 
> Her (not clear) how do you want it.
> Him: Like last time
> Her: Back door, laughing
> Then her moaning and having an orgasm.




How hard could this have been, listening to the four hours? Dear goodness, please keep yourself healthy and focused. Look into the future 10, 20 years, you'll be fine! Keep yourself focused, you have plenty of loved ones that need your support just as much as you need theirs.

I would suggest to avoiding any unnecessary contact with the wife or the sister.


----------



## MattMatt

Can you have it listened to by people outside your immediate group? How about crowdsourcing it? Would I be out of line to suggest pming it to some of us here at TAM?

Crowdsourcing might be an off-the-wall idea, but might it be worth a try?


----------



## Louise7

MattMatt said:


> Can you have it listened to by people outside your immediate group? How about crowdsourcing it? Would I be out of line to suggest pming it to some of us here at TAM?
> 
> Crowdsourcing might be an off-the-wall idea, but might it be worth a try?


Great idea Matt. Quite often with stuff like this, you hear what you expect to hear rather than what is actually there. I do a lot of audio stuff in my job and transcribing from audio media. I would certainly be keen to help with this if the OP wants to send me a PM.


----------



## tom67

Buy yourself a flash drive and put it on that from the computer.


----------



## SomedayDig

C-man...it's great to know someone else understands Audacity. It's really a great program especially for being a freebie.

Thorburn, do what C-man said to do. Run it through low pass and make sure to use a decent set of headphones. You can loop things over and over if you need to try to clarify what may have been said. You can change the speed of playback and all kinds of stuff. Again - it is a very powerful program and I'm still amazed it's free. (By the way I used it to analyze some strange sounds that have been going on in my house...as in...voices and bumps in the night. This program has been extremely useful!)


----------



## The-Deceived

Ugh. Talk about a torturous listening party. Sorry for your pain, my friend.


----------



## 3putt

The-Deceived said:


> Ugh. Talk about a torturous listening party. Sorry for your pain, my friend.


You ain't kidding there. Makes me want to vomit just thinking about it.

Thorburn, you may want to consider taking up one of the offers of assistance on this. It would be bad enough for any one of us to have to listen to this over and over. But for you?? I don't think the word torturous even comes close to describing it's effect on you.


----------



## slater

TRIGGER.... Audacity is great. I spent 2 days in a hotel in Chicago (was babysiting my WS on a business trip) messing with that program. I found the simplest stuff wored best. Trying to find a "clean" noise sample - in my case road noise from the car- I found difficult.

Jacking with the filyers and equalizer does work best.

You never "unhear" that $hit. It sticks with you.


----------



## turnera

I'm so sorry. The thing is, YOU know what she did and YOU plan to divorce her. What you get on the tape is just icing to convince OTHER people, right? Don't work yourself up over it. Four hours in a car with another man is enough for me.


----------



## canttrustu

Its true that listening to the vomitus will be torture but I think I'd *have *to listen. I'd absolutely* have *to.

You hanging in there Thorburn?


----------



## Ostera

Man, this just rips at your soul.. to actually hear it? Thor, this is terrible news. I am so sorry.. it sucks that there are actually people out ther with no conscious, no soul.


----------



## Hope1964

I've been thinking about you all day, Thorburn. Hang in there - this too shall pass.


----------



## CH

Thorburn said:


> I loved her.


I just caught that

You said loved (past tense) not love....

Sorry Thorburn, looks like it's time to finally move on.


----------



## MattMatt

Did she have sex or not? Well, you know, that doesn't really matter. Why? Because she was with someone she should not have been with, where she should not have been.

She can protest her innocence but she is like a bank robber who is on probation and who has just accidentally dropped a large suitcase that has spilt detailed plans of a bank, plus passwords, security codes, etc in front of her probation officer.

Now she MIGHT not be guilty. But what are the chances of that happening?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## C-man

Thorburn: I know exactly what you are going through. 

Don't beat yourself up about it. Your wife is broken. This is not about you - it's about a wife who has no concept of right vs wrong when it comes to marriage or relationships. Don't worry about feeling like a piece of crap - that's normal. Give yourself a chance to mourn your marriage and don't beat yourself up about it. 

I still go through periods where I'm depressed that I'm not with my stbxw. But then I remember what she's like now and what she's done. Get through this day by day and listen to the experts who will tell you that it gets better, and every downturn turns up at some point. I almost didn't believe them last week, but they were right.

As for the tapes - it almost sounds like you already have what you needed to know. Really take some time to ask yourself if you need to hear more. If the answer is no - that's fine. If the answer is yes - that's fine too. Just try not to obsess over it (yeah, easier to say than actually do - I'm a perfect example of this.)

Again - if you need help with Audacity - send me a pm.

Stay strong.


----------



## bandit.45

C-man said:


> I don't think it's worth the effort so I wouldn't worry about it. You don't need an absolutely clean sound file - you just need to eliminate some noise and boost the frequencies that have what's important.
> 
> The most important thing is to download your original files and keep original copies. That way - you can always go back to the original files if you screw them up with your editing.
> 
> With Audacity - I find that simple amplification can do wonders - then run them through some of the filters to clean up noise (eg LowPass filter tends to eliminate noise). If there's a constant noise (like a white noise) - you can sample the background and then use that as a subtractive filter.
> 
> For voices, I found that the equalization filter worked well at boosting/decreasing certain frequencies to isolate the voices. Once you find an equalization setting for the particular voice, you can save that profile and apply it to other recordings.
> 
> It takes time to learn - but once you get used to what works in your situation you can work quickly.
> 
> The best thing for me was to isolate certain segments that you're interested in and then play it on loop after you apply certain filters. It's trial and error. There is a good "UNDO" button so you can always go back.
> 
> If you have any other question, I am happy to help.


I wouldn't want this mixing / filtering/ re-mastering job.....

What a torment. Thorburn needs to get someone to help him.


----------



## bandit.45

Well..... fvck.....

T I'm so sorry brother. You gave it your best, you stuck to your guns, trusted your gut and even though she has been gaslighting and decieving you, you continued to try to work it out. 

So now you know for ceratain what she is....what she has always been. From that first time years ago when she left you and stayed over at another man's house overnight (no sex of course!....sure..uh huh) to the affair with Amish boy last year ....until now. And all the other littel bits of bullsh!t in between...

She has never stopped cheating. She never will stop. 

Your wife is broken, vile and evil T. Expose to everyone what she has done. Get that audio file professionally filtered and send it to your lawyer and anyone else who cares for a listen. Go nuclear on her ass, because I guarantee you she is in full flight/damage control mode now and is telling everyone you are a paranoid/delusional or just lying. 

PM me anytime brother. I'm here for you.


----------



## tom67

Maybe your kid or one of his friends is a tech geek that can do it?


----------



## C-man

Believe me, if the tapes have what Thorburn thinks, then nobody else needs to listen to them (except maybe his stbxw).

And Thorburn - it is good advice that you cannot UNhear what you listen to on these tapes. So think about it before you open Pandora's box.

Again - I know EXACTLY what you're going through and know how tough it is to deal with. 

And again - if you want to PM me for Audacity tips (from an amateur) or just share some pain/stories, feel free to contact me.


----------



## awake1

That was like me having to read chat logs and see pix after a data recovery and seeing every single gory detail line by line. 

Stay strong brother. Keep us updated.

I used to be in a paranormal group and did quite a bit of audio. 

Best advice: Quiet room, close your eyes, use decent quality headphones.


----------



## tom67

C-man if you can help him good just don't want him accidentally messing them up or anything like that. My dad is very good at that


----------



## MattMatt

Louise7 said:


> Great idea Matt. Quite often with stuff like this, you hear what you expect to hear rather than what is actually there. I do a lot of audio stuff in my job and transcribing from audio media. I would certainly be keen to help with this if the OP wants to send me a PM.


From time-to-time I have transcribed tapes (showing my age!) so I am up for a bit of transcribing, if required. Also a second pair of ears can help.


----------



## MattMatt

tom67 said:


> C-man if you can help him good just don't want him accidentally messing them up or anything like that. My dad is very good at that


Making multiple copies first would be a good idea.


----------



## Fisherman

MattMatt said:


> Making multiple copies first would be a good idea.


I could help as well I have a recording studio at my disposal.


----------



## Thorburn

getting help on the audio from someone here on TAM. Just knock the recorder off the cord and had to start over. 

My WS came home and we talked she is still denying anything happened laughed and with the straightest face said I am making it all up. Unreal. I said I love you but I feel sorry for you. She said, man that makes me feel great. I said, you are very ill and sick. I told her I am filling for divorce and she said nothing. She moved all her stuff upstairs.

I am broke. -252 dollars in our checking and nothing coming in till next Friday. She always managed the finances and now I found out she let things go. Maxed out on credit cards (my fault for letting this happen.


----------



## Jasel

Make sure you have backups and copies of those recordings.


----------



## arbitrator

Thorburn: My sincere apologies go out to you. You did your best~ trusted your gut instincts and gave her the benefit of the doubt, only to be slapped back down further into the chasm. And 180 her, quit listening to her as she's being nothing more than delusional and in fast denial of everything, in spite of the fact that she's been caught "red-handed!"

I just found out about your situation from *bfree* who cited this occurence over on another thread. I am so very sorry!

I fastidiously join the choir in telling you to immediately get checked for STD's, get to the attorneys office pronto to get the ball rolling. Make numerous copies of that recording and provide them to her family to let them truly know what a prostitute she is~ wait, I think that I really owe prostitutes an apology for equating the likes of your STBXW into their ilk, as I don't think that prostitutes are as deceitful.

We are here for you, Sir! Any time of the day! You will fastly remain in my prayers for as long as you may ever need them! God bless you!


----------



## turnera

Jasel said:


> Make sure you have backups and copies of those recordings.


 And do NOT keep them in your house!


----------



## turnera

Thorburn said:


> I am broke. -252 dollars in our checking and nothing coming in till next Friday. She always managed the finances and now I found out she let things go. Maxed out on credit cards (my fault for letting this happen.


 eBay is your friend. Start selling stuff. And take pictures of everything in your home right now. This is going to get ugly.


----------



## Jasel

turnera said:


> And do NOT keep them in your house!


And I'd be playing those recordings far and wide sooner rather than later.


----------



## MattMatt

turnera said:


> And do NOT keep them in your house!


Save it to Google Drive, the Cloud, etc., plus hard copies at friend's houses.


----------



## arbitrator

turnera said:


> And do NOT keep them in your house!


Leave a copy with your lawyer and place the primary one in a safe deposit box... greatly provided that your STBXW doesn't have a key to it!


----------



## Thorburn

my friend from the army a retired colonel he was my wife's attorney for eight years fighting for her injury from an accident told me that what I did violates the wiretap law and I could get in trouble. He is an ambulance chaser. He told me to call his friend also a retired colonel who I served with in the army as he is a divorce attorney to get the real scoop. I called him and am waiting for a responce.


----------



## Thorburn

she is upstairs with our dog. Unbelievable her coldness.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> my friend from the army a retired colonel he was my wife's attorney for eight years fighting for her injury from an accident told me that what I did violates the wiretap law and I could get in trouble. He is an ambulance chaser. He told me to call his friend also a retired colonel who I served with in the army as he is a divorce attorney to get the real scoop. I called him and am waiting for a responce.


You own the vehicle she was in while she was having sex with this guy. How can that be an illegal wiretap if its you recording something that's happening on your property? Get a regular lawyer's advice. Not a JAG lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kasler

^ Kick her out man. Send her to OM or whoever, but she can't disrespect you like that and then live in a bubble in the family home. 

that sh!t will eat you alive if you let it. 

Her stuff ----> Lawn in trashbags

And if you own the vehicle then your friend is mistaken. Its your car, you can do what you want with it. The same way people can place key loggers on their own computers.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> she is upstairs with our dog. Unbelievable her coldness.


This is the real her. Now after all these decades together you are seeing the real person you married. 

God what a nightmare. Whay can't you get her to leave? Can't she go stay at her slvtty sisters?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

I don't know what to say other than I am so damn sorry.


----------



## canttrustu

bandit.45 said:


> You own the vehicle she was in while she was having sex with this guy. How can that be an illegal wiretap if its you recording something that's happening on your property? Get a regular lawyer's advice. Not a JAG lawyer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


EXACTLY what I told him. If he owns the car, he's clear.


----------



## bandit.45

Kasler said:


> ^ Kick her out man. *Send her to OM or whoever,* but she can't disrespect you like that and then live in a bubble in the family home.
> 
> that sh!t will eat you alive if you let it.
> 
> Her stuff ----> Lawn in trashbags
> 
> And if you own the vehicle then your friend is mistaken. Its your car, you can do what you want with it. The same way people can place key loggers on their own computers.


Which OM? Which one? As far as T knows there could be dozens...


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> This is the real her. Now after all these decades together you are seeing the real person you married.
> 
> God what a nightmare. Whay can't you get her to leave? Can't she go stay at her slvtty sisters?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I actually had a talk with her sister today. She is a mess mentally. I apologized for backing my wife up during their big fight. She accepted it. I said when I came back from Iraq I had a flag that I flew there and two NASCAR tickets for her husband. I told my wife as we were leaving Ft. Dix my plan to give him the flag and take him to a race (he loved NASCAR) my wife said don't do that. I didn't. My BIL considered me his best friend and my wife when I left for Iraq stopped communicating with her family. I supported her. My BIL died last year and I never had a chance to fix the problem. My SIL told me today that her husband said my wife was cheating on me and that is why she cut the family off. I said I don't know but it makes sense. 

I plan on not talking to her as she is a mess.


----------



## 3putt

bandit.45 said:


> You own the vehicle she was in while she was having sex with this guy. How can that be an illegal wiretap if its you recording something that's happening on your property? Get a regular lawyer's advice. Not a JAG lawyer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree completely. I have NEVER seen anyone in a marriage get in the slightest bit of trouble for putting a recording device, video camera, or GPS in their own home or vehicle.

Ever!!

The day something like that becomes illegal in this country is the day I leave this country.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> I actually had a talk with her sister today. She is a mess mentally. I apologized for backing my wife up during their big fight. She accepted it. I said when I came back from Iraq I had a flag that I flew there and two NASCAR tickets for her husband. I told my wife as we were leaving Ft. Dix my plan to give him the flag and take him to a race (he loved NASCAR) my wife said don't do that. I didn't. My BIL considered me his best friend and my wife when I left for Iraq stopped communicating with her family. I supported her. My BIL died last year and I never had a chance to fix the problem. My SIL told me today that her husband said my wife was cheating on me and that is why she cut the family off. I said I don't know but it makes sense.
> 
> I plan on not talking to her as she is a mess.


Well there you go. But the sister should have told you her husband's concerns. Why are you apologizing to her? She should be apologizing to you for hiding the truth of what your wife was doing if she had suspicions. Was she your wife's wing-woman, or did she just assume you knew but werent doing anything about it? Don't let her off the hook! 

What is your wife's present emotional condition? Is she showing any remorse....or is she floating three feet above her bed with her eyes rolled back in her head?


----------



## MattMatt

Thorburn said:


> my friend from the army a retired colonel he was my wife's attorney for eight years fighting for her injury from an accident told me that what I did violates the wiretap law and I could get in trouble. He is an ambulance chaser. He told me to call his friend also a retired colonel who I served with in the army as he is a divorce attorney to get the real scoop. I called him and am waiting for a responce.


Then tell the idiot that you misspoke and have no recording.


----------



## MattMatt

Oh, yes. Anything he does or says will now be tainted as he cannot work for the both of you.


----------



## committedwife

Thorburn said:


> UNBELIEVABLE. I have dead solid proof and she is lying. After she had sex with the stranger she is telling him that there are other guys. Her brother wants to hear the recording and I will let him hear it.


Totally believable. It's what unrepentant waywards do. I'm sorry to see that you are in a false recovery. 

I would file for divorce if I were you.


----------



## Shaggy

Didn't she say the burner phone was up stairs in a bag?

I hope you turned the place over before she got home. She's up there texting for coverage and advice.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Well there you go. But the sister should have told you her husband's concerns. Why are you apologizing to her? She should be apologizing to you for hiding the truth of what your wife was doing if she had suspicions. Was she your wife's wing-woman, or did she just assume you knew but werent doing anything about it? Don't let her off the hook!
> 
> What is your wife's present emotional condition? Is she showing any remorse....or is she floating three feet above her bed with her eyes rolled back in her head?


I apologized because I abandoned a friendship of my BIL who considered me his best friend because my wife wanted me to support her in her fight against her family. I nor anyone in the family can figure out why my wife did this. I had a fairly long conversation with my SIL that I think brought some of this stuff out in the open. I told her what her influence was on her sister.

Then my youngest son called my SIL and talked 3 hours with her and my son said why is my mom banging all these strangers. It is not my dad's fault.


----------



## Shaggy

Btw as for recording being a problem, my response would be bring it on. That way you'll get a chance to play what got recorder since they'd have to enter the recording as evidence and have it heard to prove it was a recording.

If you are that broke I'm going to guess your wife is spending money on make up, clothes, waxings and hotel rooms.

Likely all in cash so there is no record of it.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Didn't she say the burner phone was up stairs in a bag?
> 
> I hope you turned the place over before she got home. She's up there texting for coverage and advice.


Before she left last night she went upstairs, must have gotten the phone. I did not know about it till after she left and I listened more to the recording. I am sure she has it with her but I will not be able to find it easily. She could hide it anywhere and will be guarding it.


----------



## triggerhappy

I haven't read all the responses, but I feel for you. I wish could throw a blanket of protection over you.


----------



## Shaggy

There is more here than you are seeing. These strangers so quickly after moving there, she must be on Craigslist or a hookup swinger site or a swingers club of some sort.


----------



## Thorburn

triggerhappy said:


> I haven't read all the responses, but I feel for you. I wish could throw a blanket of protection over you.


thanks


----------



## Shaggy

The burner phone is key here. It just might have texts and phone numbers and website .info to blow the lid off whatever way she's been finding these scumbags. 


Could you distract her while your son (edit) searches upstairs?

It's either on her car, on her person or in the room. It needs charging. , especially if she's burning it up right now.


----------



## canttrustu

Hang in there Thor. Put her ass on the couch if she MUST stay until you figure something else out. Unbelieveable is all I can say.

Youre doing a good job holding it together. Keep your head.


----------



## Thorburn

I shared my story with my boss this morning. He said take time off and file for divorce. He said don't lose your job over this. He said, I hired you to replace me so stay focused. He then said I was a great guy, a good person.

The attorney (ambulance chaser) told me that for all the years he knew me, our time in Kansas, Germany, Egypt that I was always a man of integrity. He said you and your wife always seemed like a happy couple who had a great marriage. I said we did. He said divorce her.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> There is more here than you are seeing. These strangers so quickly after moving there, she must be on Craigslist or a hookup swinger site or a swingers club of some sort.


My son and I think the same thing. We just had that conversation. I took her computer (hel* I bought it) she has not said a word about it. I said I talked to an attorney last year about it and I can take it.


----------



## awake1

Thorburn said:


> I shared my story with my boss this morning. He said take time off and file for divorce. He said don't lose your job over this. He said, I hired you to replace me so stay focused. He then said I was a great guy, a good person.
> 
> The attorney (ambulance chaser) told me that for all the years he knew me, our time in Kansas, Germany, Egypt that I was always a man of integrity. He said you and your wife always seemed like a happy couple who had a great marriage. I said we did. He said divorce her.


I think you gave her a world of chances, even though you said you heard them having sex, I would make SURE that you weren't mishearing something, just for your own satisfaction. 

I think at some point we all need to cut our losses. When you're down so far in poker at some point you just gotta say "i'm out." Because sure, the _next_ time could be a winning hand, but at that point it's foolish to bet and better to bow out.


----------



## bandit.45

Shaggy said:


> There is more here than you are seeing. These strangers so quickly after moving there, she must be on Craigslist or a hookup swinger site or a swingers club of some sort.


I'm thinking this too. She was orchestrating these hookups in advance...not just picking up random guys in bars. 

Sounds to me like she is a sex addict. Or she's doing it for money. But where's the money?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

My oldest BIL (a pastor) who nailed it last year. Told me that when his sister (my WS) told me that she only kissed the OM that it was cheater code for we had sex and he was right on, told me to divorce his sister. He told his other sister the one I have called evil not to let my WS in her house ever again. Doubt that will happen but we shall see.

I am so calm I can't believe it. Have not had sleep since two nights ago as I spent most of last night in the E.R. 

I am sure she is texting away on her burner phone upstairs. I was warned about getting into a confrontation with her and I will see if she slips up. I doubt it but maybe.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> I'm thinking this too. She was orchestrating these hookups in advance...not just picking up random guys in bars.
> 
> Sounds to me like she is a sex addict. Or she's doing it for money. But where's the money?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Iam thinking the same thing. The recording may show this.


----------



## 3putt

Do you have a VAR on you?


----------



## canttrustu

Just dont you cave to her Thor. Dont let her use her whiles on you should she start to get nervous she wont have you to support her. Dont get sucked back in.


----------



## vi_bride04

MattMatt said:


> Oh, yes. Anything he does or says will now be tainted as he cannot work for the both of you.


:iagree:


----------



## Affaircare

You know Thorburn, I don't know where you are and I'm not a lawyer, but I can give you a clue about the tape. 

First, here are the Electronic Surveillance Laws for all 50 states. As a general rule, usually states have it so that at least one person in the conversation has to give their consent for it to be recorded. Now, if you and your wife were talking, you would be one of the parties in the convo, and you could give your own consent, right? But in this instance it was your wife and some other male person, neither one of which knew they were being recorded and neither one of which consented. 

SOOOOO... for wisdom's sake (since we don't know who is reading here) I'm going to send you a PM of what to do with regards to that tape, and in regards to taping future interactions with the soon-to-be-ex. 

If anyone else in this thread wants that info, just hit me up and I'd be happy to PM you.


----------



## Jasel

I know it's been said like 10x but sorry you're going through this. At least everyone seems to know that you aren't the problem.


----------



## bandit.45

This was not an illegal wiretap. There was no public trnsmittion device such as a phone line, ethernet or cell signal to tap into. It was a pure recording. 

Illegal recordings cannot be used as evidence in criminal hearings. I don't think Thorburn needs to use the tape in his divorce proceedings anyways. The kids are grown, so there are no custody issues. He lives in a no-fault divorce state so proving adultery is a moot issue. 

The only thing she could possibly sue him for is using those recordings to publically humiliate her. 

But he can't be arrested or prosecuted for it. 

Expose away. If I were him I'd get the Blues Brothers Mobile withe the 4-speaker P.A. And drive up and down the streets blaring her sex recording for all her friends and neighbors to hear. 

But that's just me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

bandit.45 said:


> This was not an illegal wiretap. There was no public trnsmittion device such as a phone line, ethernet or cell signal to tap into. It was a pure recording. _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly. This whole law is in regards to tapping a phone line only, not personal recording devices in or on YOUR own property.



bandit.45 said:


> But that's just me.


The hell it is!


----------



## Quantmflux

3putt said:


> Exactly. This whole law is in regards to tapping a phone line only, not personal recording devices in or on YOUR own property.
> 
> 
> The hell it is!



+1000... There is no assumption of privacy on private property. The story for Thor is thus:

"yeah, I keep a VAR in the car because when I drive to work I often have some thoughts about how we might approach a project or issue. It's great thinking time for me! Rather than lose those thoughts I just start talking and my VAR catches them. I noticed this time that it had hours of data on it which I thought was odd since I hadn't recorded anything in a while. I figured it was a glitch so I reviewed it and... Well... we all know the rest"

case closed. Federal wire-tap, voice recording for service desks, and public recording laws don't apply to inside your car.

Consider also that in any big city you are under surveillance from dozens of private security cameras aimed at the public that are completely covert 24x7. Not only is that not illegal, police often pull those tapes from the private businesses and use them to prosecute offenders when there is a case where the security cam "oversaw" a crime. The offenders lawyers don't get them off on a "no permission to record" clause. That's a much more grey area than inside your own car.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Thorburn said:


> I nor anyone in the family can figure out why my wife did this.


Now you do. He knew, or suspected, the truth and the easiest way to keep it from you was to sever your ties to her BIL. The next step, if he told anyone, was to cut ties with her family. She knew your loyalty to her and that you'd trust her implicitly.

Don't beat yourself up for trusting and loving your wife.



.


----------



## bandit.45

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Now you do. He knew, or suspected, the truth and the easiest way to keep it from you was to sever your ties to her BIL. The next step, if he told anyone, was to cut ties with her family. She knew your loyalty to her and that you'd trust her implicitly.
> 
> Don't beat yourself up for trusting and loving your wife.
> 
> 
> 
> .


Evil. Fvcking evil.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Thorburn, I'm so sorry that you're going through this again.

Did your wife blow through the windfall inheritance that you got over the summer? 

(If I recall correctly, it was enough to get you out of debt and back on your feet.)


----------



## C-man

bandit.45 said:


> Evil. Fvcking evil.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That pretty much sums up the WS mentality. They might not be evil people but they do evil things during their affair. It's almost like they think "oh well this only hurts my husband/wife, so it's OK because I am not in love with them anymore"

Yeah, it's evil.


----------



## MattMatt

C-man said:


> That pretty much sums up the WS mentality. They might not be evil people but they do evil things during their affair. It's almost like they think "oh well this only hurts my husband/wife, so it's OK because I am not in love with them anymore"
> 
> Yeah, it's evil.


Unless they think: "Well, because h/w loves me so much, they really will not deny me my bit of fun."

But then when they see h/w in bits, cut to pieces... well... Hell! *now* what do they do?:scratchhead:


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Ok, silly question here ... I haven't read through everything but I've read through enough to ask the question ... why are you even bothering? Get her out of your life. She is self-destructing and she doesn't deserve you. You can't fix her. I think at this point I would just be DONE and move on. Are you trying to build a legal case? You sure seem to have enough evidence at this point.


----------



## MattMatt

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Ok, silly question here ... I haven't read through everything but I've read through enough to ask the question ... why are you even bothering? Get her out of your life. She is self-destructing and she doesn't deserve you. You can't fix her. I think at this point I would just be DONE and move on. Are you trying to build a legal case? You sure seem to have enough evidence at this point.


It's never as simple as it seems, or as easy as it might be.


----------



## Thorburn

3putt said:


> Do you have a VAR on you?


Yes


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

MattMatt said:


> It's never as simple as it seems, or as easy as it might be.


No, I know ... I'm battle scarred ... but at some point you just have to cut your losses. The brutal fact is that she is a loser, plain and simple. The life you want is not with her ... go build the life you want and in a few years time you will wonder why you put yourself through this for so long.


----------



## Thorburn

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Ok, silly question here ... I haven't read through everything but I've read through enough to ask the question ... why are you even bothering? Get her out of your life. She is self-destructing and she doesn't deserve you. You can't fix her. I think at this point I would just be DONE and move on. Are you trying to build a legal case? You sure seem to have enough evidence at this point.


No legal case. I just spent two hours on the phone with my youngest son. My WS put some doubt in his mind. She heard like two minutes of the recording and it was not very clear and told my son that the recording is very questionable. Of course at the time I shared that with my WS I had not listened to even half of the over 4 hours of recording. My youngest son was questioning me. So I recorded the section around hour 3 (about 5 minutes worth) My WS says "back door" and laughs (meaning anal) then you hear her moaning and having an orgasm. My son was totally convinced that this is his mom. My wife also said to him you know this could have been from 2011 with "Willie". My son knows better. He says he needs no other proof. He said everyone is questioning my recording. Listen to it and you will see what day it was, what happened, etc. most of it is not very clear with the red hot chillie peppers playing most of the time, but enough is very clear.

So, I need it for the skeptics that are important to me.


----------



## Thorburn

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Thorburn, I'm so sorry that you're going through this again.
> 
> Did your wife blow through the windfall inheritance that you got over the summer?
> 
> (If I recall correctly, it was enough to get you out of debt and back on your feet.)


Yep. Cancun and Virgin Islands


----------



## Thorburn

missmolly said:


> Thorburn,
> will you marry me?


Maybe, I am not that easy and what would your husband say?


----------



## 3putt

Thorburn said:


> Yep. Cancun and Virgin Islands


Oh man......

I feel like _I've_ just been gut punched.

How did this happen?


----------



## Shaggy

Question for you, I believe your false R warning signs have been validly going off all along. Did you ever notice a change or a particular pattern to her desire for sex with you?

Did she put you off so that she was clean for hook ups? Or did she do worse, get horny for you before and after the suspected hookups?

I'm trying to understand the motivation and integration of her cheating life with her married life.

From the recording it sounds like she as regular, even frequent hook ups perhaps with many men. Yet she tried to play the faithful wife game. So she would have to very carefully manage those two worlds.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Question for you, I believe your false R warning signs have been validly going off all along. Did you ever notice a change or a particular pattern to her desire for sex with you?
> 
> Did she put you off so that she was clean for hook ups? Or did she do worse, get horny for you before and after the suspected hookups?
> 
> I'm trying to understand the motivation and integration of her cheating life with her married life.
> 
> From the recording it sounds like she as regular, even frequent hook ups perhaps with many men. Yet she tried to play the faithful wife game. So she would have to very carefully manage those two worlds.


She always gave me sex. But more quickies for me and not involving her which I do not like. I like her getting off first and enjoying it.

OK for the gross part. Last week I did oral on her and thought there was semen in her (not mine). I thought what the heck. Then I thought I was just paranoid. It was a Wednesday. Yea she fuc*ed a dude did not clean up and had sex with me. She works on Tuesday and she told me Wednesdays are her catch up day if she can't do all the ladies hair on Tuesday. My recording shows she never went to work. She spent over 4 hours driving or being with the OM. It took me till this week to figure out what the hel* I suspected.

She is one sick person.

I don't have proof but believe me I am convinced that is what happened.


----------



## Thorburn

3putt said:


> Oh man......
> 
> I feel like _I've_ just been gut punched.
> 
> How did this happen?


I wanted our marriage to work and I thought give her some fun. I did not learn from the past.


----------



## Jasel

Thorburn said:


> He says he needs no other proof. He said everyone is questioning my recording. Listen to it and you will see what day it was, what happened, etc. most of it is not very clear with the red hot chillie peppers playing most of the time, but enough is very clear.
> 
> So, I need it for the skeptics that are important to me.


Is your son the only one who's heard it? Who else have you played it for?


----------



## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> She always gave me sex. But more quickies for me and not involving her which I do not like. I like her getting off first and enjoying it.
> 
> OK for the gross part. Last week I did oral on her and thought there was semen in her (not mine). I thought what the heck. Then I thought I was just paranoid. It was a Wednesday. Yea she fuc*ed a dude did not clean up and had sex with me. She works on Tuesday and she told me Wednesdays are her catch up day if she can't do all the ladies hair on Tuesday. My recording shows she never went to work. She spent over 4 hours driving or being with the OM. It took me till this week to figure out what the hel* I suspected.
> 
> She is one sick person.
> 
> I don't have proof but believe me I am convinced that is what happened.


This is one of those tickets WWs love to punch. That's one sh*tload of contempt.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Regarding those "wire tapping" etc, you did not even record a phone call. Besides, depending on what state you live in its regarding phone conversations and I'm sure that you live in a one party state.

Look it up. Either way you'll be fine, forget the lawyer language, you need that evidence for your recovery. Most states are no-fault for divorce anyway.


----------



## Shaggy

Thorburn said:


> She always gave me sex. But more quickies for me and not involving her which I do not like. I like her getting off first and enjoying it.
> 
> OK for the gross part. Last week I did oral on her and thought there was semen in her (not mine). I thought what the heck. Then I thought I was just paranoid. It was a Wednesday. Yea she fuc*ed a dude did not clean up and had sex with me. She works on Tuesday and she told me Wednesdays are her catch up day if she can't do all the ladies hair on Tuesday. My recording shows she never went to work. She spent over 4 hours driving or being with the OM. It took me till this week to figure out what the hel* I suspected.
> 
> She is one sick person.
> 
> I don't have proof but believe me I am convinced that is what happened.


If you ever get dumb enough to even think about R, recall that she did this. She did it by choice.

Though if it was backdoor maybe there wasn't anything is door #1 after all.


----------



## turnera

> I'm trying to understand the motivation and integration of her cheating life with her married life.


Well, if he was handing over inheritances, sounds like a good reason to me.


----------



## Shaggy

It's good of she blew through the inheritance, that means you spent her money traveling and not joint assets.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> It's good of she blew through the inheritance, that means you spent her money traveling and not joint assets.


NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! It was my retroactive VA disability payments for my injuries when I was in Iraq. I did it. I set up the trips. I just wanted her to have some fun with me.


DUMB ME, DUMBER ME, DUMBEST ME.


----------



## arbitrator

Thorburn: After having read just the scant pieces of transcript of what your W said on that tape, and now hearing your revelation of the most recent act of sex with her, just sickens me beyond measure.

To call her a prostitute would only serve to upgrade her social status!


----------



## Thor

Kasler said:


> And if you own the vehicle then your friend is mistaken. Its your car, you can do what you want with it. The same way people can place key loggers on their own computers.


It depends totally on your local laws and how the courts apply them.

My lawyer tells me here the law says at least one person in a conversation must know about the recording. So a VAR in *MY* car that my wife goes for a joyride in which records her having any kind of conversation is not legal in my state!

If a phone conversation is involved it could become a lot more complicated.


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Thorburn said:


> OK for the gross part. Last week I did oral on her and thought there was semen in her (not mine).


 I am so glad that my ex cut me off when she began fooling around on me.

You need to throw her and her sh!t out of the house.


----------



## vi_bride04

*Re: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



Count of Monte Cristo said:


> I am so glad that my ex cut me off when she began fooling around on me.
> 
> You need to throw her and her sh!t out of the house.


That is the grossest thing ever....

I agree throw her out


----------



## kindi

Thorburn said:


> I just spent two hours on the phone with my youngest son. My youngest son was questioning me. So I recorded the section around hour 3 (about 5 minutes worth) My WS says "back door" and laughs (meaning anal) then you hear her moaning and having an orgasm. My son was totally convinced that this is his mom.


You played a recording to your son of his mother having sex with a guy and moaning and having an orgasm?

That aint right. 

No matter how bad things are between you and her, playing that recording for your son is way over the top. 

It's completely inappropriate. 

Stop trying to convince everyone about her affair, you know she did it, file for divorce and get her out of your life, and stop trying to win everyone else over, especially your kids who will be forever damaged not only by her affair and the subsequent divorce but by your tactics of exposing them to her affair first hand. 

It's not their fight.


----------



## Lon

Thorburn, just caught up on this thread - I am truly sorry for this incredibly escalated level of betrayal from her. She is a very very broken person and not you nor anyone can fix her, all you can do is protect yourself in every way possible and shield yourself and your sons from her as much as you can. Don't feel dumb, you were doing what a sane, loving man does for his W, she just let you down in every possible way. You learned your hard lesson and are already better off knowing the truth, as deep as it hurts.


----------



## arbitrator

Shaggy said:


> If you ever get dumb enough to even think about R, recall that she did this. She did it by choice.
> 
> *Though if it was backdoor maybe there wasn't anything in door #1 after all.*


It's not exactly my point to be flippant here, but this description would aptly make one think that they're talking about that old game show from yesteryear called Let's Make A Deal.

The only real concern for the contestant here is to find out exactly what type of STD lies within each door!


----------



## alte Dame

This is truly repulsive and so very sad for you. I would say that your W is a mental case, but that would give her some excuse, which she doesn't deserve.


----------



## 3putt

kindi said:


> You played a recording to your son of his mother having sex with a guy and moaning and having an orgasm?
> 
> That aint right.
> 
> No matter how bad things are between you and her, playing that recording for your son is way over the top.
> 
> It's completely inappropriate.
> 
> Stop trying to convince everyone about her affair, you know she did it, file for divorce and get her out of your life, and stop trying to win everyone else over, especially your kids who will be forever damaged not only by her affair and the subsequent divorce but by your tactics of exposing them to her affair first hand.
> 
> It's not their fight.


Oh just STFU. This ranks right up there with one of the dumbest comments I have ever seen on any board.


----------



## C-man

kindi said:


> You played a recording to your son of his mother having sex with a guy and moaning and having an orgasm?
> 
> That aint right.
> 
> No matter how bad things are between you and her, playing that recording for your son is way over the top.
> 
> It's completely inappropriate.


Have to agree with this. But given the shock you just had, you should give yourself a pass. Just remember, you are in shock. Going forward - Do NOT make any decisions in this state of shock and take a few deep breaths before you decide to do anything. 

Keep the tapes to yourself for now. For close friends and relatives you can describe what's on them or better yet, just say you caught your wife red-handed cheating.

Just so you know you're not alone here - I'm going to update my thread. I went through the same shock - couldn't really function for about a week and a half. Try to get some sleep, try to think of something else for even 5 minutes (I know that even 5 minutes is tough). Try to give your brain a break from replaying the tape over and over again in your mind.

Give yourself some time.


----------



## bandit.45

This thread has pissed me off so bad I don't think I can sleep tonight. 

Thorburn you need to insist she leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## johnnycomelately

kindi said:


> You played a recording to your son of his mother having sex with a guy and moaning and having an orgasm?
> 
> That aint right.
> 
> No matter how bad things are between you and her, playing that recording for your son is way over the top.
> 
> It's completely inappropriate.


I disagree. The son is an adult and the WS was trying to convince him that Thor is paranoid. He has the right to prove to his son that he is not paranoid. 

She is to blame for this, not him. If she didn't want her son to hear the recording she shouldn't have tried to use him to attack Thor.


----------



## dogman

Thorburn...thank you for your service and sorry for the injuries you received. You are a hero.

See past this woman.


----------



## Carlchurchill

Thorburn said:


> She had sex with a stranger and was bragging to him that there are other guys. I played the recording for her and she lied saying she was talking about her business


Hold on maybe she isnt lieing? Perhaps 'her business' is the oldest profession of all time


----------



## Thorburn

I am not sure what is wrong with me right now. I had a good nights sleep. My arms and hands are shaking. I just drank some coffee and had toast. Have not eaten since I don't know when, perhaps that is what is going on. The anti-biotics that they gave me at the E.R. just in case I had a STD tore up my stomach so maybe I am dehydrated. 

I felt myself getting pissed, my wife is upstairs sleeping with the dog. I can't believe it, she is going to get "Rudy" our Golden. I popped a Sertraline HCL a few minutes ago and it is starting to work. I have these pills for my PTSD but I never took them, but I thought I better now. took one yesterday and man it really takes the edge off. 

Arms are still shaking but my mind is clear.

My plan for today:

1. Waiting for the attorney to call me. Left a message yesterday.
2. tell the WS to start separating items that she wants and we can start selling the rest of the stuff because we are going to put the house up for sale.
3. Go over bills etc with WS.


I can't believe it, the life I built with this woman is over. I am not kicking her to the curb, I am going to be nice to her. That is why I took the Sertraline. I felt myself getting ready to say something really nasty when she wakes up.

Like, why don;t you ask backdoor man to give you money, you know where he lives, you drove him home


----------



## Thoreau

Why be nice? Wake her azz up and get her out. She does not deserve any niceness, respect or courtesy. C'mon man. She is the enemy.Get her out today and soldier on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

kindi said:


> You played a recording to your son of his mother having sex with a guy and moaning and having an orgasm?
> 
> That aint right.
> 
> No matter how bad things are between you and her, playing that recording for your son is way over the top.
> 
> It's completely inappropriate.
> 
> Stop trying to convince everyone about her affair, you know she did it, file for divorce and get her out of your life, and stop trying to win everyone else over, especially your kids who will be forever damaged not only by her affair and the subsequent divorce but by your tactics of exposing them to her affair first hand.
> 
> It's not their fight.


Have to disagree. His sons are adults.


----------



## strugglinghusband

warlock07 said:


> Have to disagree. His sons are adults.


:iagree: and they are HIS son's, Thorburns call on who he shares info with.


----------



## vi_bride04

Being nice to a completely fvcking insane crazy person doesn't work.

Where is your anger? She deserves no kindness what so ever. She won't show you any!!! 

What's the reasoning for not kicking her ass out???


----------



## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> My oldest BIL (a pastor) who nailed it last year. Told me that when his sister (my WS) told me that she only kissed the OM that it was cheater code for we had sex and he was right on, told me to divorce his sister. He told his other sister the one I have called evil not to let my WS in her house ever again. Doubt that will happen but we shall see.
> 
> I am so calm I can't believe it. Have not had sleep since two nights ago as I spent most of last night in the E.R.
> 
> I am sure she is texting away on her burner phone upstairs. I was warned about getting into a confrontation with her and I will see if she slips up. I doubt it but maybe.


You need to find that phone. It will be with her when she is asleep, probably under her pillow. If she wakes in the night to go pee, that will be your chance to go fetch.


----------



## ing

Thorburn said:


> I am not sure what is wrong with me right now. I had a good nights sleep. My arms and hands are shaking. I just drank some coffee and had toast. Have not eaten since I don't know when, perhaps that is what is going on. The anti-biotics that they gave me at the E.R. just in case I had a STD tore up my stomach so maybe I am dehydrated.
> 
> I felt myself getting pissed, my wife is upstairs sleeping with the dog. I can't believe it, she is going to get "Rudy" our Golden. I popped a Sertraline HCL a few minutes ago and it is starting to work. I have these pills for my PTSD but I never took them, but I thought I better now. took one yesterday and man it really takes the edge off.
> 
> Arms are still shaking but my mind is clear.
> 
> My plan for today:
> 
> 1. Waiting for the attorney to call me. Left a message yesterday.
> 2. tell the WS to start separating items that she wants and we can start selling the rest of the stuff because we are going to put the house up for sale.
> 3. Go over bills etc with WS.
> 
> 
> I can't believe it, the life I built with this woman is over. I am not kicking her to the curb, I am going to be nice to her. That is why I took the Sertraline. I felt myself getting ready to say something really nasty when she wakes up.
> 
> Like, why don;t you ask backdoor man to give you money, you know where he lives, you drove him home



Hi..
I had the same thing. It is basically your mind and body overloaded. 
It is a REALLY GOOD IDEA to take the PTSD pills at the moment as they have an anti-anxiety component. Her being in the house is very bad for you. She is the source of the feelings and her coldness is building the anxiety.

Please do not underestimate the trauma of this event! I know you have been here before but it is the continued betrayal that is hurting.. 

READ THIS


You may feel in control at the moment but you are in a heightened state of vigilance and are you are NOT THINKING CLEARLY .

SLOW. DOWN.

You need to get her out of the house as soon as possible for your own mental health. 

Right now avoidance is a very good strategy. This includes stopping listening to that damn tape. 
You have offers of help here from multiple people including me to clean up that tape. 
Although why you want to is something you may have to ask yourself when the meds kick in.. . Take the help. We may be strangers but that is good in this case![audacity is awesome]

Doctors.. ASAP. You need the _right drugs_ for your mental state now. I took some very heavy duty ones for 12 days which enabled me to start to think clearly.. 

So sorry. so very, very sorry your back here


----------



## Thorburn

johnnycomelately said:


> I disagree. The son is an adult and the WS was trying to convince him that Thor is paranoid. He has the right to prove to his son that he is not paranoid.
> 
> She is to blame for this, not him. If she didn't want her son to hear the recording she shouldn't have tried to use him to attack Thor.





bandit.45 said:


> This thread has pissed me off so bad I don't think I can sleep tonight.
> 
> Thorburn you need to insist she leave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





ing said:


> Hi..
> I had the same thing. It is basically your mind and body overloaded.
> It is a REALLY GOOD IDEA to take the PTSD pills at the moment as they have an anti-anxiety component. . This may help. I will describe an attack. Her being in the house is very bad for you. She is the source of the feelings and her coldness is building the anxiety.
> 
> Please do not underestimate the trauma of this event.
> 
> READ THIS
> 
> 
> You may feel in control at the moment but you are in a heightened state of vigilance and are you are NOT THINKING CLEARLY .
> 
> SLOW. DOWN.
> 
> You need to get her out of the house as soon as possible for your own mental health.
> Right now avoidance is a very good strategy. This includes stopping listening to that damn tape.
> You have offers of help here from multiple people including me to clean up that tape. Although why you want to is something you may have to ask yourself when the meds kick in..[audacity is awesome] . Take the help. We may be strangers but that is good in this case!
> 
> Doctors.. ASAP. You need the right drugs for your mental state now. I took some very heavy duty ones for 12 days which enabled me to start to think clearly..
> 
> So sorry. so very, very sorry your back here


Did see two doctors in the E.R. the other night. Meds are working. Believe it or not I am not real angry. For once I feel like I have some control over me and the events in my life


----------



## Louise7

bandit.45 said:


> This thread has pissed me off so bad I don't think I can sleep tonight.
> 
> Thorburn you need to insist she leave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am a hard old woman and nothing makes me cry anymore, except this thread did last night. 

She needs to take her inhuman sorry self out. I wouldn't care where. I'd just block her access to all money and take the car keys away because she needs to find another place to shag.

The dog stays. The dog has more moral fibre and better manners.


----------



## bfree

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Ok, silly question here ... I haven't read through everything but I've read through enough to ask the question ... why are you even bothering? Get her out of your life. She is self-destructing and she doesn't deserve you. You can't fix her. I think at this point I would just be DONE and move on. Are you trying to build a legal case? You sure seem to have enough evidence at this point.


I remember Thorburs other thread. Simple answer...he really loved his wife. Thorburn wasn't blind, he knew the risks of trying to R but he put all his hopes in getting the new house and bringing the family back together. Unfortunately his wife did not share his desire to start fresh.


----------



## toonaive

Thorburn said:


> Yep. Cancun and Virgin Islands


Interesting. My, not too soon enough TBxW took her sister to the Turks and Caicos islands for a week. 5K gone out of the checkbook in a flash. It was supposed to be just a road trip.


----------



## Almostrecovered

if the RHCP song is from the "I'm With You" album it wasnt released until August 29th 2011

not sure if it'll help with clarifying that the recording is new to others


----------



## LetDownNTX

bandit.45 said:


> This thread has pissed me off so bad I don't think I can sleep tonight.
> 
> Thorburn you need to insist she leave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have been feeling the same way about a post from yesterday. Rocker meets Asian, has child with Asian, doesnt love Asian, meets another Asian...blah blah blah


----------



## LetDownNTX

Thorburn said:


> I am not sure what is wrong with me right now. I had a good nights sleep. My arms and hands are shaking. I just drank some coffee and had toast. Have not eaten since I don't know when, perhaps that is what is going on. The anti-biotics that they gave me at the E.R. just in case I had a STD tore up my stomach so maybe I am dehydrated.
> 
> I felt myself getting pissed, my wife is upstairs sleeping with the dog. I can't believe it, she is going to get "Rudy" our Golden. I popped a Sertraline HCL a few minutes ago and it is starting to work. I have these pills for my PTSD but I never took them, but I thought I better now. took one yesterday and man it really takes the edge off.
> 
> Arms are still shaking but my mind is clear.
> 
> My plan for today:
> 
> 1. Waiting for the attorney to call me. Left a message yesterday.
> 2. tell the WS to start separating items that she wants and we can start selling the rest of the stuff because we are going to put the house up for sale.
> 3. Go over bills etc with WS.
> 
> 
> I can't believe it, the life I built with this woman is over. I am not kicking her to the curb, I am going to be nice to her. That is why I took the Sertraline. I felt myself getting ready to say something really nasty when she wakes up.
> 
> Like, why don;t you ask backdoor man to give you money, you know where he lives, you drove him home


May it is just me but being NICE is not something that comes to mind after you have heard your wife having sex with another man in YOUR car. You dont have to be violent or say something you will regret but she sure doesnt deserve you being nice to her. As soon as she gets up I'd tell her she has 10 minutes to collect 5 things she wants to sell on Ebay or you will choose. 

You need to eat , even if its a few bites of cracker or toast or something. And stay hydrated...your health shouldnt be compromised because of your cheating wife!


----------



## ArmyofJuan

While apathy is usually the best policy when interacting with a WS as far as attitude, in this case you’d be more than justified for just going all out nuts on her. If anyone deserves to be yelled out and treated like a POS it’s her.

She is not worthy of you acknowledging her existence. Don’t show her any respect. I know you are inclined to take the high road on this but I feel later on you will regret even being civil towards her. Her blatant disrespect and hilarious attempts at gas lighting should get you angry and you shouldn’t feel guilty if you find yourself laying in on her. Hell she might even like it.

This thread angers the blood. She’ll hit rock bottom one day, just not soon enough.


----------



## Thorburn

She is taking pictures of the contents of the house. We are going to sell most of the stuff on Craigslist. Amazing. I have gotten into wood working and made stuff from a barn I tore down. Stuff she wanted me to make. My first two benches will be sold, the kitchen table (my first mortise and tenon for the legs), king size head board, etc. They have no meaning apart from her. I made this stuff for her. It is sad. Stuff we bought at auctions. Furniture that we recently refinished, laughing and having a great time doing it. Picking out the paint, stain, etc. 

All stuff we were doing even as of this past Monday.

The sunroom that I tore out all the white ugly paneling and now is not quite finished with old barnwood, barn beams, because she wanted it to look like Williamsburg, where we went with my parents every year for over 20 years.

This is so unreal.

Yet I am holding it together.

She looks old and sickly.

Her oldest brother (he's a pastor) told me that she will soon realize that the thrill of hooking up with men (while married) will soon be over. It is amazing. She spent almost four hours will a dude having sex in her car on Wednesday then called me on her way home after taken the guy to his house, and talked to me on her way home almost right away for about 15 minutes or so, telling about her day at work, like nothing happened.

There is something mental.

I am not kicking her out, I am not forcing her to give her phone, I told her if she needs money maybe she can ask her "back door" friend to give her money, since she knows where she lives.

She looks sick.


----------



## bandit.45

T's wife is going to turn up the heat. If you think about it, she has been liberated. I fully expect her to start flaunting her swinging lifestyle in his face. 

Selfish self destructive subhumans like her always increase their bad behavior once the veil is lifted. 

This is going to get worse before it gets better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jasel

Why are you both staying in the same house if you don't mind me asking? Especially since it sounds like she has plenty of relatives she could stay with. Glad to hear you're holding it together.


----------



## bandit.45

Don't be nice T. Be indifferent. Be above and beyond her. Start the 180, a "nice" 180, but start detaching. Let her hang herself while you see to your health and well being. 

Apart from your sons and BIL, who else have you exposed to?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

You know the most recent guy is married because they did it in her car not at his house.

That's gotta be damn uncomfortable in a car.


----------



## arbitrator

I don't know where you are brother, but if food is an issue for you, please visit your church or any local church. Explain your situation, and they'll be happy to help you out by offering assistance on a short-term basis with no expectation of repayment.

And talking with a pastor will do you just as much good as talking with a counselor. Being a United Methodist, I know that we offer food pantry's and emergency funding for people who might need food and medication.


----------



## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> She is taking pictures of the contents of the house. We are going to sell most of the stuff on Craigslist. Amazing


Craigslist, huh?


----------



## strugglinghusband

Shaggy said:


> You know the most recent guy is married because they did it in her car not at his house.
> 
> That's gotta be damn uncomfortable in a car.



Bet his wife would like to hear the recording.


----------



## bandit.45

Shaggy said:


> You know the most recent guy is married because they did it in her car not at his house.
> 
> That's gotta be damn uncomfortable in a car.


Agreed. She's been hooking up through swinger networks. Craigslist maybe. Bet if T scans through the personals on Craigslist he'll find her ad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

arbitrator said:


> I don't know where you are brother, but if food is an issue for you, please visit your church or any local church. Explain your situation, and they'll be happy to help you out by offering assistance on a short-term basis with no expectation of repayment.
> 
> And talking with a pastor will do you just as much good as talking with a counselor. Being a United Methodist, I know that we offer food pantry's and emergency funding for people who might need food and medication.


IIRC, Thorburn was a Chaplain's Assistant at one point in his Army career.


----------



## Thor

Thorburn, take care of yourself. Get good exercise, whatever is safe for you. Lift weights, walk, do pushups, etc. Something to burn off energy and build good brain chemicals. Eat well and drink lots of water.

As to being nice with your wife, I think you should be strategic and selfish. Do whatever gets you to the best outcome for you. Maybe it is a swift divorce. Maybe it is getting max $ in the settlement. Maybe it is keeping things calm so she won't turn the D into a battle of high cost lawyers. Once you know what your highest priorities are, proceed with strategy which gets you there. 

Just don't trust her in any way. Watch out for yourself.


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Shaggy said:


> You know the most recent guy is married because they did it in her car not at his house.
> 
> That's gotta be damn uncomfortable in a car.


:iagree:

Who the hell has sex for four hours in a car?

Even Fabreeze for cars couldn't get that funk out.


----------



## bandit.45

Yep. Four hours. And T gets quickies...crumbs from her table.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Who the hell has sex for four hours in a car?


Methheads?


----------



## SomedayDig

LetDownNTX said:


> I have been feeling the same way about a post from yesterday. Rocker meets Asian, has child with Asian, doesnt love Asian, meets another Asian...blah blah blah


LMFAO!! Thanks...now there's Redbull and Skoal alllll over the place! :rofl:


----------



## JMGrey

kindi said:


> You played a recording to your son of his mother having sex with a guy and moaning and having an orgasm?
> 
> That aint right.
> 
> No matter how bad things are between you and her, playing that recording for your son is way over the top.
> 
> It's completely inappropriate.
> 
> Stop trying to convince everyone about her affair, you know she did it, file for divorce and get her out of your life, and stop trying to win everyone else over, especially your kids who will be forever damaged not only by her affair and the subsequent divorce but by your tactics of exposing them to her affair first hand.
> 
> It's not their fight.


The fvck it isn't. A child that is mature enough to understand what an affair entails has the right to know when one of their parents is an adulterous, unprincipled lout, if they so choose. As for allowing the son to to listen to the tape, if he had doubts in his mind and wanted to know, one way or another, the truth of the his father's assertions, then Thorburn was under no obligation to keep it from his son. It's obvious that his son feels very strongly about infidelity and that whether or not it factually occurred was going to color, and possibly destroy, his relationship with his mother. Would that be a hurtful situation? Sure, but tough titty. The wife should've considered the ramifications before breaking her vows with the back-door man, to say nothing of serving her husband the most contemptible dessert imaginable.


----------



## strugglinghusband

SomedayDig said:


> LMFAO!! Thanks...now there's *Redbull and Skoal* alllll over the place! :rofl:


It aint just for breakfast anymore.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

bandit.45 said:


> Don't be nice T. * Be indifferent. Be above and beyond her.* Start the 180, a "nice" 180, but start detaching. Let her hang herself while you see to your health and well being.
> 
> Apart from your sons and BIL, who else have you exposed to?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I agree. I personally think its a waste of adrenaline and cortisol and to top it off stress/cortisol has a bad affect on your body if you are not healthy.

Keep pushing through Thor


----------



## Thorburn

I am being indifferent. We talked. I said I could get nasty but won't. She said she will get half my military retirement, alimony, etc. Military retirement yes. Alimony maybe maybe not. My attorney last year says it is a toss up. 

She says she wants to move back to our other home with our oldest son and then she and the boys can all be together. She says I can keep the house here. I said I can get three tenants (I have four bedrooms). Might work out. My youngest son says he will move out if that happens.

Listen, I do not want to loose my shirt here. I am living on the margin right now. I could get nasty but seriously what do I gain. I don't want to go there. I really want to show everyone that I am above this. 

She is living like a freaken animal and I will not lower myself to her. She does not deserve a thing but I could loose family and friends if I get nasty and I won't do it.

I am not into investigation, finding these guys ect. I don't care.

She is having unprotected sex with strangers. Unreal.


----------



## Thoreau

And letting you lick it up. Get a little nasty.....throw her out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

I have her computer at work. Told her I don't know what happened to it. If she has stuff from dating hook up sites I don't know how to find it. She got pretty good at this stuff


----------



## turnera

Pay someone to find it for you.


----------



## vi_bride04

Thoreau said:


> And letting you lick it up. Get a little nasty.....throw her out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just puked in my mouth a little.....so gross


----------



## turnera

And tell your lawyer to go for the jugular. You don't have to accept it all at the end, but if you don't go for it first, SHE WILL.


----------



## strugglinghusband

turnera said:


> And tell your lawyer to go for the jugular. You don't have to accept it all at the end, but if you don't go for it first, SHE WILL.


:iagree: you can always barter down, but never up.


----------



## Thor

I would push hard on what she gets in the settlement. She has committed a fraud on you, most especially in the false R. I don't know if military courts can help you or not?

This recording may be some good leverage for you to get a better settlement. She wants @Q#$ alimony??? Then the world is going to hear that tape!!!!

I thought you wrote earlier you found the VAR in her purse. It was hers not yours. Totally legal for her to record herself in the car!!


----------



## arbitrator

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> :iagree:
> 
> *Who the hell has sex for four hours in a car?
> 
> Even Fabreeze for cars couldn't get that funk out*.



* Please call 9-1-1 immediately, Y'all! I absolutely think that I'm dying from laughter! :rofl: *


----------



## Almostrecovered

I think letting Thorburn deal with his lawyer is best, every state has their own set of rules for alimony and asset division. The infidelity probably won't affect much if at all


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Thorburn, Thor, Thoreau?

You guys are confusing the hell out of me.


----------



## turnera

Almostrecovered said:


> I think letting Thorburn deal with his lawyer is best, every state has their own set of rules for alimony and asset division. The infidelity probably won't affect much if at all


 Agreed, but he was saying he wants to be nice to her. This is not the time to start out nice. Not when you're talking retirement plans and such, which I assume is at least tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars.


----------



## SomedayDig

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Thorburn, Thor, Thoreau?
> 
> You guys are confusing the hell out of me.


Soooo glad I'm not the only one! :lol:


----------



## Almostrecovered

Thor= God Of Thunder
Thorburn= Getting burned by lightning strike from God of Thunder
Thoreau= French God of Thunder


----------



## alte Dame

Almostrecovered said:


> Thor= God Of Thunder
> Thorburn= Getting burned by lightning strike from God of Thunder
> Thoreau= French God of Thunder


Although I can't imagine the French would ever want a God of Thunder. God of Ennui, maybe.


----------



## Thoreau

Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Why am I all of a sudden thinking about Gene Simmons?


----------



## 3putt

Almostrecovered said:


> Thor= God Of Thunder
> Thorburn= Getting burned by lightning strike from God of Thunder
> Thoreau= French God of Thunder


Now I have the KISS song God of Thunder running through my head.


----------



## 3putt

SomedayDig said:


> Why am I all of a sudden thinking about Gene Simmons?


Whoa...


----------



## Almostrecovered

Thor:









Thorburn:









Thoreau:


----------



## Thoreau

I like the last pic best. He is one handsome devil.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

Posting my furniture on Craigslist. Stuff I made. Not great stuff but the first stuff I made for her. Some of it I made for her at this house for this house.

Look, I could go ape shi* on her. I am serious, I really feel sorry for her. She is one sick girl. She turns 52 on Valentine's day. 

It is taking everything I have to keep the lid on and right now I am using every technique I teach in counseling to do so.

I am told by friends to arm myself as I don't know who she has been in contact with and what they might do to me (like some nut case). I took my guns out of the house because of my oldest son threatening suicide in 2011.

Right now posting "our stuff" is taking it's toll on me. This is stuff we bought together and we had fun doing it.

I am done with this relationship but man oh man. 

It just plain sucks.


----------



## bandit.45

_Posted via Mobile Device_

What's sad is I think she was done with the marriage years ago T. 

She's been cake eating and stringing you along. 

I don't get your sons. So tell us again which son is down on her and which one is down on you? I'm confused.


----------



## SomedayDig

Thorburn said:


> She turns 52 on Valentine's day.


I'm not in your situation, man...but Regret's birthday is Valentine's day, too. She'll be 43. This is the first since Dday last March.

I feel for you and all the sh-t you're going through right now, brother. This is extremely difficult to read, but you've got a lot of strength and there are certainly quite a few of us here to listen to whatever you need to say.


----------



## Numbersixxx

Thorburn said:


> I am being indifferent. We talked. I said I could get nasty but won't. She said she will get half my military retirement, alimony, etc. Military retirement yes. Alimony maybe maybe not. My attorney last year says it is a toss up.


You can only describe this with "legal theft". God, this makes me angry.


----------



## S4E

vi_bride04 said:


> I just puked in my mouth a little.....so gross


Since I finally gave up rug sweeping and faced what my wife did to me 12 years ago with my supposed "best friend"...that is the 1 image that sickens me beyond words... I didn't know anything was going on, and she must have been in some sort of a "hyper sex stage" because diuring her affair she was wanting it more often with me, and in different new ways - (duh..should've seen that one?) So I know there had to be many times she had us both in the same day... They were doing anal too and I'm sickened by the fact that I had to have gone down on her after they had sex without a condom! No amount of built up trust or good behavior can ever make that go away once you face how things really were! Run...run...run!


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> What's sad is I think she was done with the marriage years ago T.
> 
> She's been cake eating and stringing you along.
> 
> I don't get your sons. So tell us again which son is down on her and which one is down on you? I'm confused.


Oldest son 28 (special needs) is with her. His mind is like a 12 year old. My youngest 26 is supporting me.

If I get nasty like I did last year I will loose them and I will not go there again. I am not going to let her rent space in my head to the place where I go off on her. She is expecting it and will use it against me and I will not let it happen. 

My boss hired me to replace him when he retires later this year or next and told me not to let this ruin my career. He is a good guy. He told me the other day that I am a good, decent man and that I have to move forward.

I don't regret my life with her. I had many fun and good years with her, but for her to pis* it away for what?

I can say it was a sham, a fraud, whatever and it was but I did have many good times with her.

Like my youngest son said last night. This is not the mother he knew and something is wrong with her and we need to get her back. That is what her family is saying. I don't care. 

I predict that her family will support her down the road if not now and some will look at me as the cause. That I made her this way. I did not show love. I looked at porn. I got angry. Etc. That bothers me in that I like her brothers. But I can't control them. Blood is thick and they will not abandon her.

My best hope is to try to keep both houses at this time and move on with the marriage.


----------



## the guy

I'm curious, is your STBXW look sick cuz of your new perception of her? Or are others mentioning her appearence?

I mean now you are looking at her in completely different light. Kind of like the move "Shallow Hale" but oppisite.

If she truelly has a sickly appearence and others are also noticing then it appears that word has gotten to her with regard to the additional "information" on the VAR that she missed( you didn't share with her). Her unhealthy appearence has to be due to the fact that she now knows the end is near. Or now that her computer is gone she is in withdrawls, and mabye her burner phone got cut off due to lack of funds.

Anyway, keep it together and continue to quote from the recording when you do engage with your STBXW. I think its not getting nasty with her, but more of a teasing that might brighten your day, and ruining hers.
I'm sure there are alot more statements that you can use in teasing her. I would even go as far a imitating her orgasm in front of her....but thats just me.

You may not be the teasing type, but man I would rub it in her face every chance I could. A tactic showing her what she really is and showing her that you will not let *her problem* define you.

To me it would be like "ha ha look what you are"......saying crap like this in a teasing manner my or may not be nasty to her but I guess being nasty is in the eye of the beholder.LOL


----------



## canttrustu

Thorburn said:


> Oldest son 28 (special needs) is with her. His mind is like a 12 year old. My youngest 26 is supporting me.
> 
> If I get nasty like I did last year I will loose them and I will not go there again. I am not going to let her rent space in my head to the place where I go off on her. She is expecting it and will use it against me and I will not let it happen.
> 
> My boss hired me to replace him when he retires later this year or next and told me not to let this ruin my career. He is a good guy. He told me the other day that I am a good, decent man and that I have to move forward.
> 
> I don't regret my life with her. I had many fun and good years with her, but for her to pis* it away for what?
> 
> I can say it was a sham, a fraud, whatever and it was but I did have many good times with her.
> 
> Like my youngest son said last night. This is not the mother he knew and something is wrong with her and we need to get her back. That is what her family is saying. I don't care.
> 
> I predict that her family will support her down the road if not now and some will look at me as the cause. That I made her this way. I did not show love. I looked at porn. I got angry. Etc. That bothers me in that I like her brothers. But I can't control them. Blood is thick and they will not abandon her.
> 
> My best hope is to try to keep both houses at this time and move on with the marriage.


Move on WITH the marriage or FROM the marriage?????


----------



## S4E

canttrustu said:


> Move on WITH the marriage or FROM the marriage?????


:iagree::scratchhead:


----------



## alte Dame

What can be maddening is how simple and complicated things can be at the same time. The wrongness of her behavior is very, very clear, but it's never that simple. You look back on many years & you see lots of good things. It's OK, in my opinion, for it to be simple and, at the same time, not so simple.

But seriously, age 52? This really smacks of mentally-deficient. I'm not saying anyone should feel sorry for her, but it's pathetic when you consider the twistedness of her actions and her age.

And you are right to stay calm for the sake of your professional future. Your boss's advice is good, I think.


----------



## SaltInWound

the guy said:


> I would even go as far a imitating her orgasm in front of her....but thats just me.


:rofl:


----------



## Machiavelli

Numbersixxx said:


> You can only describe this with "legal theft". God, this makes me angry.


I've heard the term "divorce theft."


----------



## Thorburn

the guy said:


> I'm curious, is your STBXW look sick cuz of your new perception of her? Or are others mentioning her appearence?
> 
> I mean now you are looking at her in completely different light. Kind of like the move "Shallow Hale" but oppisite.
> 
> If she truelly has a sickly appearence and others are also noticing then it appears that word has gotten to her with regard to the additional "information" on the VAR that she missed( you didn't share with her). Her unhealthy appearence has to be due to the fact that she now knows the end is near. Or now that her computer is gone she is in withdrawls, and mabye her burner phone got cut off due to lack of funds.
> 
> Anyway, keep it together and continue to quote from the recording when you do engage with your STBXW. I think its not getting nasty with her, but more of a teasing that might brighten your day, and ruining hers.
> I'm sure there are alot more statements that you can use in teasing her. I would even go as far a imitating her orgasm in front of her....but thats just me.
> 
> You may not be the teasing type, but man I would rub it in her face every chance I could. A tactic showing her what she really is and showing her that you will not let *her problem* define you.
> 
> To me it would be like "ha ha look what you are"......saying crap like this in a teasing manner my or may not be nasty to her but I guess being nasty is in the eye of the beholder.LOL


I have seen this look before. It is as if she is old. She looks this way when she is under stress. Don't feel sorry the way she looks.


----------



## EleGirl

If there is a sliver lining to this latest discovery, it's that it sets you free from her with do doubts that this is right course for you to take.

Since she is now who she has become, you are better off without her. 

You tried to fix your marriage. You have done all you could do. 

The divorce, selling your things, etc will be hard. But it sounds like your have your head is as good a place as it can be with all that has happened.

((((hugs))))


----------



## kindi

I don't get why you have to sell all the stuff you made. Obviously it's important to you.

So split it up, keep your half and she can do whatever she wants with hers.

Or put all of it in safe storage and let her try to get a court order to get her half of the stuff you built from scratch.

Sounds to me like you're being very passive and making things too easy for her.


----------



## Thorburn

kindi said:


> I don't get why you have to sell all the stuff you made. Obviously it's important to you.
> 
> So split it up, keep your half and she can do whatever she wants with hers.
> 
> Or put all of it in safe storage and let her try to get a court order to get her half of the stuff you built from scratch.
> 
> Sounds to me like you're being very passive and making things too easy for her.


I need money fast. I have $252 minus in the bank. Maxed out credit cards, don't get paid till next Friday. None of this stuff means anything to me. I made these items for her. I told my family to hold off sending me money until I figure this all out.


----------



## Louise7

SomedayDig said:


> Soooo glad I'm not the only one! :lol:


Pay attention at the back!!! (I am so glad it just isn't my dementia kicking in...)


----------



## turnera

Thorburn, we aren't telling you to go ape**** on her. Just be aggressive in saving your financial wealth. SHE did this to the marriage, she doesn't deserve to just have you hand her half of all you have, in an effort to be nice to her. And if you ever have hope of getting her back (not our business), nice is not the way to achieve that. She needs a wakeup call. Just fight for your investments, ok?


----------



## C-man

Before my stbxw moved out, she gave away a lot of the stuff I had given her over the years. She didn't think to pass them down to our daughters - she just packed them up and dropped them at Goodwill.

Of course, the really valuable stuff she kept for herself - rings, jewellery. But the small gifts, with sentimental value were trashed. My daughters were a little upset when they learned that some of the stuff was simply gone.

Thorburn - agree with Elegirl - the one positive thing about all of this is that you are going to be free of her. And since you made all of the stuff for her - even if you kept it, it would probably trigger a lot of bad memories every time you looked at it. You can build more stuff for the new woman in your life down the road...


----------



## Yessongs72

vi_bride04 said:


> Being nice to a completely fvcking insane crazy person doesn't work.
> 
> Where is your anger? She deserves no kindness what so ever. She won't show you any!!!
> 
> What's the reasoning for not kicking her ass out???


Why should Thorburn stoop to her level - maybe he is doing this kindly because he is not a malicious person. I remember a line in a lisab thread which goes something like "always be a bit kinder than you need to be", its good advice.


----------



## C-man

Yessongs72 said:


> Why should Thorburn stoop to her level - maybe he is doing this kindly because he is not a malicious person. I remember a line in a lisab thread which goes something like "always be a bit kinder than you need to be", its good advice.


I agree. 

The marriage is over - so what's anger and spite going to accomplish? Make the marriage MORE over? Maybe Thorburn is being nice for his own sake. He can look back and say - yeah the marriage went to crap - but I always took the high road.


----------



## Louise7

Forget her getting anything. No half of your service payment/houses and alimony or stuff like that. She gets half of nothing because she took all of your soul.

I do get it about your kids and especially about your special needs child BUT, kids come good when you spare them the bull and tell them the truth. Mine hated me for two years and then, without me saying a word, they figured it out. Just today, having lunch with my 25 year old, it hit me how much closer we are and he tells me because I only ever told him the truth.

Money - yup you need it. Your family have offered and it would be such a small thing to get you some. I remember being minus the money and it's no problem to get you a short term fix. I guess you know how that PM button works.

I trust you have cut up her cards? I can only hope so.


----------



## kindi

Louise7 said:


> Forget her getting anything. No half of your service payment/houses and alimony or stuff like that. She gets half of nothing because she took all of your soul.


Unfortunately that's not how the law works. 



Louise7 said:


> I remember being minus the money and it's no problem to get you a short term fix. I guess you know how that PM button works.


You're going to give money to an anonymous internet stranger because their story is similar to yours?

Wow.


----------



## Maricha75

Louise7 said:


> Forget her getting anything. No half of your service payment/houses and alimony or stuff like that. She gets half of nothing because she took all of your soul.


Unfortunately, as kindi stated, it doesn't work that way. My sister's ex-father-in-law had to give his ex-wife half of his retirement because they were married over 25 years, I believe, and married during his time in the service. I think he even had to pay her alimony, but I'm not certain. It's all in how the law chooses to rule.


----------



## Maricha75

kindi said:


> You're going to give money to an anonymous internet stranger because their story is similar to yours?
> 
> Wow.


Some people are generous like that. Something tugs at their heartstrings and they feel compelled to help. It's not really uncommon. It happens IRL, so not a far cry regarding the internet.


----------



## SaltInWound

Louise7 said:


> Forget her getting anything. No half of your service payment/houses and alimony or stuff like that. She gets half of nothing because she took all of your soul.


There is nothing he can do about the military retirement. That is automatic. As a military spouse (husband retired), I have to say that awarding this woman part of his military pay should be illegal. She destroyed the marriage. In my case, my husband found a government loophole overseas to make me homeless while I was stateside receiving medical care and then moved his mistress in our home. Too bad I will only get a percentage of his retirement pay. I should be awarded the whole [email protected] thing.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Yes, money is important ... but at this point I would gladly pay and have to start over just to get rid of this loser wife and be done with it.


----------



## Thorburn

My finances are what they are. We have been refinishing furniture for months and selling them on Craigslist. We just got started doing this. I have three tables to sell, two finished one we will sell as it. I have no heart to work with my WS on these projects which we were doing even on Monday. 

I will make it and I have just got off the phone with one creditor and they will work with me. If some of the items sell I will be fine. If they all sell I will be a rich man (just kidding). The dutch cupboard I remembering buying at an auction with my WS. She loved it and I bought two similar ones. Both from the 1800's. Man, I hate seeing this stuff go.


----------



## Machiavelli

Yessongs72 said:


> Why should Thorburn stoop to her level - maybe he is doing this kindly because he is not a malicious person. I remember a line in a lisab thread which goes something like "always be a bit kinder than you need to be", its good advice.


Well, Thorburn is a good guy, he's seen a lot, and he knows how his wife is going to end up on the road she's taken, both in the short term and the long term. He's probably got more pity toward her than malice, at least so far.

Highway To Hell


----------



## Louise7

To those who think I am a complete nutter...

Yes, I'd happily give a few greenbacks to another human being to help ease the pain. Back when my ex left, having cleared the bank account, a complete stranger gave me 50 GBPs. I fed my kids and put petrol in my car. It felt like someone had given me a million dollars. Three years on, I found the stranger and repaid the debt. The stranger has become a loyal and trusted friend.

I know how the law works - went through a painful and expensive divorce. What I was trying to say (badly) is that the OP would have every right to fight fight fight and kick this woman in the financials.

I am not a pushover or a sad case, ready to hand out money on hearing a sad tale and it's a bit shocking that I came across that way. It was not my intention to embarrass the OP or anyone else. I will bow out of this and wish the OP well.


----------



## Thorburn

Just got a check in the mail for $77.00 and my wife brought her check from work for $177.00. So we are on the upward tick. She works part-time as a hairstylist. Of course this past Wednesday she went to work to catch up on clients she did not get done on Tuesday. Funny, she never made it to work and decided to entertain someone.


----------



## arbitrator

Machiavelli said:


> Well, Thorburn is a good guy, he's seen a lot, and he knows how his wife is going to end up on the road she's taken, both in the short term and the long term. He's probably got more pity toward her than malice, at least so far.


Thorburn is a far better, more compassionate man than I am, or for that matter, ever will be! My hat is off to you, Sir!


----------



## Thorburn

Louise7 said:


> To those who think I am a complete nutter...
> 
> Yes, I'd happily give a few greenbacks to another human being to help ease the pain. Back when my ex left, having cleared the bank account, a complete stranger gave me 50 GBPs. I fed my kids and put petrol in my car. It felt like someone had given me a million dollars. Three years on, I found the stranger and repaid the debt. The stranger has become a loyal and trusted friend.
> 
> I know how the law works - went through a painful and expensive divorce. What I was trying to say (badly) is that the OP would have every right to fight fight fight and kick this woman in the financials.
> 
> I am not a pushover or a sad case, ready to hand out money on hearing a sad tale and it's a bit shocking that I came across that way. It was not my intention to embarrass the OP or anyone else. I will bow out of this and wish the OP well.


No offense taken. Your kindness is appreciated.


----------



## Thoreau

Louise7....I have done the same. Paying it forward. Good on you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

arbitrator said:


> Thorburn is a far better, more compassionate man than I am, or for that matter, ever will be! My hat is off to you, Sir!


I was not like this last year. Drinking, yelling, and tried to go on a murdering spree at a meatplant. Well not murder but man I wanted to hurt the OM. Now I don't give a rip. I don't want to know who these guys are, how she got in contact with them, I don't want her phone, I just wish I could make her leave. 

I want to cry but won't give her the privilege of seeing me do that. I did tell her to ask the "Back Door" guy for money. I really want to say more to her but I know better. The **** mobile is parked outside. Man oh man. The bed she made out of blankets is still in there. My zebra blanket from Iraq. Talk about disrespect.


----------



## turnera

You ought to take your blanket out of there while she's there, and light it. Give it a decent death.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> You ought to take your blanket out of there while she's there, and light it. Give it a decent death.


Yea, thought about it. I got it from a friend over there from the 25th Infantry. My WS and I joked about it because I never washed it. When I came home she washed it 4 times. Made love on it. It was special to us. I really just want to cry. Total disrespect.


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

kindi said:


> You're going to give money to an anonymous internet stranger because their story is similar to yours?


What? You mean we aren't family? 

What the hell have I been doing the past year getting solace from a bunch of internet 'strangers'? Horrors!

Hate to tell you Kindi but I feel closer to some of these so-called strangers than some of my own family members and wouldn't hesitate to help some of them out if they reached out to me.

Edit: Of course, Kindi no pudding for you.


----------



## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> Yea, thought about it. I got it from a friend over there from the 25th Infantry. My WS and I joked about it because I never washed it. When I came home she washed it 4 times. Made love on it. It was special to us. I really just want to cry. Total disrespect.


That is awful. If my husband wasn't holding our household goods hostage, I would send you the lion blanket he got during a port visit in the Middle East. It has never been used. Still in the original package.


----------



## arbitrator

Always remember the kindnesses that have been afforded you and, by the same token, those kindnesses that you have afforded others~ and never forget that through all of them:

*"God truly moves into our lives in strange and mysterious ways!"*


----------



## warlock07

Not usre how you are holding up but I would have gone postal after something as bad as this. Get a feeling that she damaged you real good this time.


----------



## canttrustu

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> What? You mean we aren't family?
> 
> What the hell have I been doing the past year getting solace from a bunch of internet 'strangers'? Horrors!
> 
> Hate to tell you Kindi but I feel closer to some of these so-called strangers than some of my own family members and wouldn't hesitate to help some of them out if they reached out to me.
> 
> Edit: Of course, Kindi no pudding for you.


Ditto. I've given alot of my time to these "strangers" and would give Thorburn money before some of my own family. I sat on the phone with him last night when I wouldnt do that with some of my family members. But Thorburn would do it for me...

Btw- Kindi may you never be in need.


----------



## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> No offense taken. Your kindness is appreciated.


Thanks. I wish you well.


----------



## canttrustu

Louise7 said:


> Thanks. I wish you well.


Louise, dont let one smart alleck remark run you off. Gotta get tougher than that.


----------



## Louise7

kindi said:


> Unfortunately that's not how the law works.
> 
> 
> 
> You're going to give money to an anonymous internet stranger because their story is similar to yours?
> 
> Wow.


I know this is not how the law works.
For the record, the OP's 'story' is nothing like mine. Doesn't stop me having a tiny bit of compassion though for someone who has their back against the wall. Gullible? Most likely. I hope I'll always stay that way.


----------



## Thorburn

Louise7 said:


> I know this is not how the law works.
> For the record, the OP's 'story' is nothing like mine. Doesn't stop me having a tiny bit of compassion though for someone who has their back against the wall. Gullible? Most likely. I hope I'll always stay that way.


I hope you do as well. A ray of sunshine for a dark day.


----------



## Louise7

canttrustu said:


> Louise, dont let one smart alleck remark run you off. Gotta get tougher than that.


I am a real old dragon 

As the saying goes: Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup...


----------



## Thoreau

Kindi......shameful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## canttrustu

Thoreau said:


> Kindi......shameful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I dont think Kindi realizes just how much we go thru with each other on TAM. Its very bonding at times.


For you Kindi-

*empathy*  
1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another. 


*Sympathy*-. harmony of or agreement in feeling, as between persons or on the part of one person with respect to another.

JIC you didnt understand.


----------



## vi_bride04

canttrustu said:


> I dont think Kindi realizes just how much we go thru with each other on TAM. Its very bonding at times.


So true. And this thread is an example that just shows how much support us internet strangers can give to one another.


----------



## canttrustu

vi_bride04 said:


> So true. And this thread is an example that just shows how much support us internet strangers can give to one another.


Yes. When I first came to TAM I was a mess and Thorburn was one of the first to come in and offer his support. He spent lots of time PM'ing me and offering hope. He did this despite the pain he was in bc of his own situation. I havent forgotten.


----------



## SomedayDig

Louise7 said:


> I am a real old dragon
> 
> As the saying goes: Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup...


Love the spin off from Tolkien!!


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## ing

Glad your on drugs man... Missed that you had got that sorted. 
As you know it will help you think clearly. I wish that I has stayed on them longer.

Louise7 offered something that I was privileged to be able to do for someone a year or so ago..

When I was a very young man I trying my best to make it on my own, in a recession that left many young men unemployed.

Living on the street, ducking and diving, just get enough to eat for the day. I was cold. I was tired, and had walked at least 10 miles that day to get a meal. 

I just kept walking. An old man [god he was my age..] walked up behind me and said. "Are you alright"
I lied. I said I was. 
He suggested I go to his flat and have a cup of tea. I was suspicious and wary but the idea of being inside and warm took over. 
He made me tea for me. Made a sandwich for me. 
On leaving he handed me 50 pounds, smiled uneasily, and said.
"You owe that, but you need to pay it forward"

That enabled me to fix my life. That was all that was between me and a new life. 

20 years later I was the old guy. A young man working his ass off to sell the last copy of Big Issue . We talked. I paid my debt[with inflation and interest] with the same debt repayment in instructions. I understand the uneasy smile of the old guy now. 

In this awful time where all you are seeing is the bad it is good to remember that there are many, many good people in the world who have walked in your shoes and who empathize not sympathize. 

Strip your life bare. It is liberating and empowering. Make new furniture [with hand cut dovetalis] just for you


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## Thorburn

TAM has been a tremendous comfort and help to me. Several called me nuts for sticking it out. I was not offended. I should have listened. Others listened to me, gave advice, a hug and I just got a marriage proposal earlier in this thread and an offer of financial help. Amazing folks. And I have helped others.


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## Thorburn

This is a table I made for my WS. She wanted the saw marks left in the legs so I did not plane them out.


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## MattMatt

Thorburn, none of this is your fault.

Let me do an analogy. Let's imagine you gave your wife a nice piece of new rope. You said to her: "Hey! Let's skip together! and get fit!"

And she did. For a while. Then, behind your back, she fashioned it into a noose and shoved her head through it.

That's not your fault, Thorburn. You did the right thing all the way through.

As they say, you can lead a horse to water but, if you can make him float on his back, you really have got something!

By the way, how's the audio processing going?


----------



## Thorburn

God, this hurts. I am being hit with a ton of bricks. It is very lonely and she is upstairs. I feel like I could just puke. I have no interest in interacting with her, none. I really think if she could leave she would because I can see she is not enjoying it either. Her millionaire younger brother can't take her in due to them having foster children. When we visited in the past and stayed over night they had a visit from the agency and we had to hide our suit cases in the closet because they were not allowed overnight guests. Her sister will take her in if needed but she is a mental mess and the other family members are asking her not to do it.

I wish I had a friend nearby who could help me hang barn beams in the sunroom. It would at least be a distraction for a time. 

And the meds wore off. Man, you can tell the difference.

I will be OK but man it just hurts.


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## Thoreau

Go upstairs. Throw her out. Ffs man....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

MattMatt said:


> Thorburn, none of this is your fault.
> 
> Let me do an analogy. Let's imagine you gave your wife a nice piece of new rope. You said to her: "Hey! Let's skip together! and get fit!"
> 
> And she did. For a while. Then, behind your back, she fashioned it into a noose and shoved her head through it.
> 
> That's not your fault, Thorburn. You did the right thing all the way through.
> 
> As they say, you can lead a horse to water but, if you can make him float on his back, you really have got something!
> 
> By the way, how's the audio processing going?


I know it isn't. I have been playing one scenario after another in my head for the past two hours of what I may have done to her. It just does not make sense that I would have led her to do this. It may not make sense but after listening to the tape and her talking to the OM about me I kind of get her view on things and she did not care much about me. Perhaps it was because she was involved with other men and had to make me the bad person in her mind to justify her behavior. Not that things were clear on the recording but I never got the sense now or before that she ever wanted to leave me. She wanted it both ways. Me and the others. Cake eater, security, whatever.

As my older BIL told me today, he said, "I wonder what she will do now that the thrill of being married and sneaking around is no longer an option". He said she got a sick thrill out of this and now that I will no longer be in the picture it will take that thrill of secrecy, and excitement away." My BIL is a good man.


----------



## Thorburn

Thoreau said:


> Go upstairs. Throw her out. Ffs man....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OMG. Now that made me freaken laugh. I got this picture of me doing that. I got the balls to do that but I don't want to go to jail tonight. I don't know why Thoreau but I am laughing. Man, you gave me some hope that I can laugh again. I just might be cracking up here, but I am laughing my as* off


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## ing

I know you can't through her out. Cut her Internet off.. Just block her at the router then she will go out!


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## JustSomeGuyWho

ing said:


> I know you can't through her out. Cut her Internet off.. Just block her at the router then she will go out!


There ya go! If she has a tv with cable/satellite you can cut that off too. Turn the music up to something she hates. Then while she's gone ... change the locks.


----------



## Thorburn

ing said:


> I know you can't through her out. Cut her Internet off.. Just block her at the router then she will go out!


I don't know what happened but she lost her computer and said I took it. She says when I am not here she is going to tear up the house looking for it.


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## 3putt

ing said:


> I know you can't through her out. Cut her Internet off.. Just block her at the router then she will go out!


Or you can blow the sh!t out of the router (and her phone while you're at it) with a 12 gauge shotgun outside. I'm a Myrtle Beach ******* though, so that's how we roll.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Thorburn said:


> I don't know what happened but she lost her computer and said I took it. She says when I am not here she is going to tear up the house looking for it.


How do you lose your computer?


----------



## Jasel

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> How do you lose your computer?


Same way you **** a guy who isn't your husband in the car for 4 hours . Being crazy as cat ****.


----------



## Maricha75

Thorburn said:


> I don't know what happened but she lost her computer and said I took it. *She says when I am not here she is going to tear up the house looking for it.*


Hmmmm.... If there is anything in particular that you don't want her to potentially destroy, I'd get it out of the house, pronto. Tearing up the house, looking for her computer... must be something on it she REALLLLY doesn't want you to see!


----------



## Fisherman

Change the router to only accept the Mac addresses from your personal devices. Her stuff won't work


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Jasel said:


> Same way you **** a guy who isn't your husband in the car for 4 hours . Being crazy as cat ****.


:smthumbup:

This


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I was thinking the same thing. There must be some IMPORTANT stuff, that T can't see, on that computer. I'm not just talking about sexual or affair related items.

After reading another WW thread, with the hidden account with $12K, it makes you wonder.


----------



## MattMatt

Thorburn said:


> I know it isn't. I have been playing one scenario after another in my head for the past two hours of what I may have done to her. It just does not make sense that I would have led her to do this. It may not make sense but after listening to the tape and her talking to the OM about me I kind of get her view on things and she did not care much about me. Perhaps it was because she was involved with other men and had to make me the bad person in her mind to justify her behavior. Not that things were clear on the recording but I never got the sense now or before that she ever wanted to leave me. She wanted it both ways. Me and the others. Cake eater, security, whatever.
> 
> As my older BIL told me today, he said, "I wonder what she will do now that the thrill of being married and sneaking around is no longer an option". He said she got a sick thrill out of this and now that I will no longer be in the picture it will take that thrill of secrecy, and excitement away." My BIL is a good man.


Yes! Because a cheater *always* says what they honestly feel about their faithful spouse to their AP. 

Scenario 1: "Oh, I do so love my husband. He's wonderful! A real rock. And so talented, too! Oh... honey? What's the matter? Why have you lost your erection?"

Scenario 2: "My husband is a real loser! Yeah! Let's have mad, passionate sex in the back of my car!"

Even if Scenario 1 is what cheater spouse *really* thinks, ain't no way that's what she would say to AP! Don't you know they have rules in the Cheater's Handbook over what to say to their AP?

But if she cheated on you, what she said to her AP is only a part of the problem, isn't it?


----------



## Hardtohandle

C-man said:


> I agree.
> 
> The marriage is over - so what's anger and spite going to accomplish? Make the marriage MORE over? Maybe Thorburn is being nice for his own sake. He can look back and say - yeah the marriage went to crap - but I always took the high road.


Exactly.


----------



## MattMatt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I was thinking the same thing. There must be some IMPORTANT stuff, that T can't see, on that computer. I'm not just talking about sexual or affair related items.
> 
> After reading another WW thread, with the hidden account with $12K, it makes you wonder.


Use keyword searches on the C Drive.

And search by file extensions, if you can.


----------



## SaltInWound

phillybeffandswiss said:


> After reading another WW thread, with the hidden account with $12K, it makes you wonder.


Do you remember which thread it was? Can you direct me?


----------



## the guy

What happened to you sucks big time. Is there a lesson to be learned?
IMO I think push and pushing your waywards after d-day #1 is what must be done. no matter how hard you have to push them to a breaking point to either R or D.

I think it has to be so bad for the wayward to keep there marriage that the effort is so great that it makes the challenge to keep the marriage worth not going down that infidelity road *again*.

Its like if one works so hard for something they appreciate it more, but when forgiveness and R are handed to waywards so easily then there is no appreciation.

I know every case is different and waywards are broken in their own way, but what if one makes it so hard that any weak waywards would have bailed, as compared to a wayward that works hard to keep the marriage?

What is heavy lifting? Did Mrs. Thorburn do it? Was she pushed to her limits to realy appretiate the gift of fogiveness Thorburn gave her?

As betrayed we deal with this one important thought, "will they do it again?


@Thorburn, as painful as it is, do you feel a calm that you now have a clear direction? Granted no body like selling there stuff, but is it a means to a end?


----------



## the guy

Thorburn said:


> I don't know what happened but she lost her computer and said I took it. She says when I am not here she is going to tear up the house looking for it.


heheheheh


----------



## badbane

Thorburn said:


> I don't know what happened but she lost her computer and said I took it. She says when I am not here she is going to tear up the house looking for it.


That's a threat you can now call the cops. You could do it while you are not at home and then they can escort her out.


----------



## Maricha75

badbane said:


> That's a threat you can now call the cops. You could do it while you are not at home and then they can escort her out.


I'd also send the son to the store for a latch and a padlock for the bedroom. None of her things are in there, she has no business in there. But that's JMO.


----------



## Shaggy

Ironically if you went to the guys she cheated with an demanded money to not tell their wives. You'd get charged with blackmail and sent to jail.

Putty you couldn't somehow find the OM and make them believe it was her blackmailing them. Then you'd either get the money, or she'd go to jail. A no loose situation.

I bet if you looked at old Craigslist women looking for hook ups for your old area, and then your new area you'd find someone posting to both, and that would be her.

You might even find out her burner phone number.


----------



## Shaggy

Is there a chance she's also doing drugs with these guys? Frankly 4 hours in a car is an awful long time. Is she also getting high? Doing meth?

Can you possibly get a hair sample from her that you could have tested when you have more money?


----------



## ing

Thorburn said:


> This is a table I made for my WS. She wanted the saw marks left in the legs so I did not plane them out.


Nice. Through tenons. Did you wedge them? 
What is the timber?
Have you started the design of the new one. Hint.. hint


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

SaltInWound said:


> Do you remember which thread it was? Can you direct me?


No, I'll see if I can find it. I was shocked. You know people warn the spouse about the wayward squirreling away money, but I'm always thinking first last month rent and a couple of bill payments. 3k or less and I feel that is a little high.
Boy was I wrong.


----------



## the guy

When tearing apart one's own house, when shared said house is shared with a spouse can be deamed threatening and abusive, and then domestic vilence to said house might end in protection of threatened and abused spouse.

In short until she takes action and followes thru with her threat then you are in fact threatened and being abused..........so call the cops, take pictures and document the actions your wife is doing. If it does happen.


I sence a very volitel reaction to your old ladies behavior, its coming...she is on the edge and someone is going to be forced out of the house. But thats just me thinking the worst.

Protect your self!


----------



## lordmayhem

Thorburn said:


> TAM has been a tremendous comfort and help to me. Several called me nuts for sticking it out. I was not offended. I should have listened. Others listened to me, gave advice, a hug and I just got a marriage proposal earlier in this thread and an offer of financial help. Amazing folks. And I have helped others.


I don't recall ever having called you nuts, I may have thought it, but didn't post it. :ezpi_wink1:

Well Master Sergeant, when is enough going to be enough? You're a trained counselor. You know something is broken inside of her and she's a serial cheater. From one Master Sergeant to another, I have to ask you what are you going to do about it? Sorry that you were in False R yet again, but I could only shake my head when you posted that you were buying a house and going to R with her. She's not going to change you know it.

I said I wasn't coming back to TAM, but I just had to post in your thread.


----------



## lordmayhem

the guy said:


> When tearing apart one's own house, when shared said house is shared with a spouse can be deamed threatening and abusive, and then domestic vilence to said house might end in protection of threatened and abused spouse.
> 
> In short until she takes action and followes thru with her threat then you are in fact threatened and being abused..........so call the cops, take pictures and document the actions your wife is doing. If it does happen.
> 
> 
> I sence a very volitel reaction to your old ladies behavior, its coming...she is on the edge and someone is going to be forced out of the house. But thats just me thinking the worst.
> 
> Protect your self!


If she so much as destroys anything and/or makes threats, this is considered domestic violence in many states and he can call the cops and get a protection/restraining order against her. The PO will require her immediate removal from the home.


----------



## morituri

Thorburn,

If there is no trust, there can be no marriage. Despite what popular culture says, love is not enough.


----------



## morituri

I will always love the women who conquered my heart, whether they be my wives, lovers, daughers, or grandaughters, but I must always remain true to myself. They would never love me otherwise. NEVER will I regret my life to GOD, nor whatever happened to me because I chose unwisely.


----------



## dogman

3putt said:


> Or you can blow the sh!t out of the router (and her phone while you're at it) with a 12 gauge shotgun outside. I'm a Myrtle Beach ******* though, so that's how we roll.



Shootings guns is like potatoe chips....don't get me started.


----------



## Thorburn

ing said:


> Nice. Through tenons. Did you wedge them?
> What is the timber?
> Have you started the design of the new one. Hint.. hint


When I built this I did not know what a mortise and tenon was. Saw a picture and made them. It was a little sloppy, I had two chisels that I never used before. I counter sank a screw and drilled in the sides through it which made the mortise and tenon tight and put a birch wood button over the screw. Three legs are white oak and the forth is really hard wood. It is like maple but it is something I never saw before. The top has one red oak panel, two poplar panels and a panel of that wood I don't know what it is. It is really nice grain. It was what I had. I never did wood working before and this is all using cheap tools.

I bought a hand plane to work on the barn beams started it and then this all started. I saw online what you can do with hand planes and wanted to learn how to do hand planing.


----------



## Thorburn

lordmayhem said:


> I don't recall ever having called you nuts, I may have thought it, but didn't post it. :ezpi_wink1:
> 
> Well Master Sergeant, when is enough going to be enough? You're a trained counselor. You know something is broken inside of her and she's a serial cheater. From one Master Sergeant to another, I have to ask you what are you going to do about it? Sorry that you were in False R yet again, but I could only shake my head when you posted that you were buying a house and going to R with her. She's not going to change you know it.
> 
> I said I wasn't coming back to TAM, but I just had to post in your thread.


You were not one who called me nuts. I got PM's from some who did. 

I am going to file. I can't now, I have to get my truck inspected and need two tires. It expired last month. I was hoping to do that today but the person who could help me out with some funds is out of town. It may need brake work. I can do that (I always do my own brake work) but it is too cold and right now I do not have the funds for brake pads. On my truck brakes are easy. Last time I went to change the pads I decided to change the rotors and saw the brake line was a little corroded and changed them. There was lots of room to work.

I just got up and my arms and hand were shaking. I had some soup yesterday, almost puked. I have toast in the toaster.

I wanted to go to my youngest son's house today but when I called him he said a guy is moving in today (our third tenant), he said tommorrow would be better. It is his birthday. 

So I dont' know what I am going to do today.

I am done with this marriage.


----------



## ing

Thorburn said:


> When I built this I did not know what a mortise and tenon was. Saw a picture and made them. It was a little sloppy, I had two chisels that I never used before. I counter sank a screw and drilled in the sides through it which made the mortise and tenon tight and put a birch wood button over the screw. Three legs are white oak and the forth is really hard wood. It is like maple but it is something I never saw before. The top has one red oak panel, two poplar panels and a panel of that wood I don't know what it is. It is really nice grain. It was what I had. I never did wood working before and this is all using cheap tools.
> 
> I bought a hand plane to work on the barn beams started it and then this all started. I saw online what you can do with hand planes and wanted to learn how to do hand planing.


You used a metal dowel then Just to furhter distract you rather clumsily and obviously..

The type of plane you use is not that important, although a No 5 1/2 Stanley is a nice start! It is the way it is prepared. 
The bottom needs to be dead flat and the back of the blade also.. 
They are cast and milled but that still leaves bumps and irregularities in the surfaces. 
Remove the frog and blade
1 Buy some 180 wet and dry and tape it to a sheet of thick [ish] glass.
2. Tape that to a lump of flat timber.
3. Wet the paper, and with even strokes plane the sandpaper until the surface shows no high spots.. 
3. Change the paper to 240 and do it again.
4. Change the paper to 400 and do it again.
5. Change the paper to 800 and do it again.

Do the same with the back of the plane blade.
flat flat flat.
Sharpen the blae with a water stone until it is razor sharp.

When it is all done put if back together and be amazed at the difference.
There you go. A week gone by


----------



## MattMatt

lordmayhem said:


> I don't recall ever having called you nuts, I may have thought it, but didn't post it. :ezpi_wink1:
> 
> Well Master Sergeant, when is enough going to be enough? You're a trained counselor. You know something is broken inside of her and she's a serial cheater. From one Master Sergeant to another, I have to ask you what are you going to do about it? Sorry that you were in False R yet again, but I could only shake my head when you posted that you were buying a house and going to R with her. She's not going to change you know it.
> 
> *I said I wasn't coming back to TAM, but I just had to post in your thread.*


But you are needed here, your Lordship... :smthumbup:


----------



## Thorburn

ing said:


> You used a metal dowel then Just to furhter distract you rather clumsily and obviously..
> 
> The type of plane you use is not that important, although a No 5 1/2 Stanley is a nice start! It is the way it is prepared.
> The bottom needs to be dead flat and the back of the blade also..
> They are cast and milled but that still leaves bumps and irregularities in the surfaces.
> Remove the frog and blade
> 1 Buy some 180 wet and dry and tape it to a sheet of thick [ish] glass.
> 2. Tape that to a lump of flat timber.
> 3. Wet the paper, and with even strokes plane the sandpaper until the surface shows no high spots..
> 3. Change the paper to 240 and do it again.
> 4. Change the paper to 400 and do it again.
> 5. Change the paper to 800 and do it again.
> 
> Do the same with the back of the plane blade.
> flat flat flat.
> Sharpen the blae with a water stone until it is razor sharp.
> 
> When it is all done put if back together and be amazed at the difference.
> There you go. A week gone by


When we were at out antique business last week I bought an older Craftsman plane. The bottom plate is about nine inches long, has several adjusting parts to it. Thanks for how to clean it up. I just got the Sept. 2012 Lee Valley and Vertitas fine woodworking tools catalog. Man, those planes go for almost $300.00. I been watching videos online to see how it is done. I don't have the finer grade paper but I can get it.

I have some nice white oak heavy stock almost 4 X 2 by 6 feet that I can't wait to build something. I get free pallets tear them apart carefully, get all the nails out (what a job that is) clean them up. I ruined one saw blade on my compound saw by not getting the nails out, so I do the extra hard work in getting those stinking spiral nails out. I had tools that I bought at auctions that I did not know what they were. I thought I had a wire cutter and it turns out that it is a nail puller and man does that thing work great. The wood I have gotten so far is fantastic. Red oak, white oak, maple, poplar, pine, some real hard stuff that is gorgeous, mahogany. I read how to clean this stuff up and like I said I figure out how to get the nails out. Sometimes I still split a slat or two and it is hard work but worth it.


----------



## Shaggy

Thorburn,

Was she getting high in her car? Does she smoke ?


----------



## ing

Thorburn said:


> When we were at out antique business last week I bought an older Craftsman plane. The bottom plate is about nine inches long, has several adjusting parts to it. Thanks for how to clean it up. I just got the Sept. 2012 Lee Valley and Vertitas fine woodworking tools catalog. Man, those planes go for almost $300.00. I been watching videos online to see how it is done. I don't have the finer grade paper but I can get it.
> 
> I have some nice white oak heavy stock almost 4 X 2 by 6 feet that I can't wait to build something. I get free pallets tear them apart carefully, get all the nails out (what a job that is) clean them up. I ruined one saw blade on my compound saw by not getting the nails out, The wood I have gotten so far is fantastic.


White oak is lovely to work and finishes so well. One of the rewards of doing all that work on your plane once it is planed you won't have to touch the timber with sandpaper even on the end grain. The Craftsman looks like a nice plane. I use pallets too so I know what you mean about the nails! I also use old railway sleepers, they are murder on tools since they are full of grit and sand.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> Was she getting high in her car? Does she smoke ?


I got some weed last year, so she has it. I smoked it with her about three times and hated it, she enjoyed it. She is not getting high from weed right now, I would know. I don't know about anything else. She does not seem high. When I was a chaplain years ago I did D & A work and would know the signs. 

She lied to my youngest son. Duh!!! She said she is only using her phone to contact her family. Funny, yesterday she call a janitorial company about an hour north of here 3 times and recieved one call back. I googled it and there is not much information on the company, they do not have a web site. Funny, Google maps says it is an hour drive. That is how long it took her to get home on Wensday. She must be calling the one dude at work.


----------



## Thorburn

ing said:


> White oak is lovely to work and finishes so well. One of the rewards of doing all that work on your plane once it is planed you won't have to touch the timber with sandpaper even on the end grain. The Craftsman looks like a nice plane. I use pallets too so I know what you mean about the nails! I also use old railway sleepers, they are murder on tools since they are full of grit and sand.


I tore a barn down a few years ago and stored the wood. I am using that to redo our sun room. Really rustic looking.


----------



## Shaggy

Does she smoke cigarettes? 

If this was a simple hook up and have sex in a car she wouldn't be there for 4 hours with him. If they wanted to talk then have sex m why not go to a restaurant or someplace more comfortable.

The only reason I can think to stay on the car that long is to get high. Meth, pills, coke, something. The fact that she has sex later in the session reinforces that. If they were meeting for sex., they'd both be eager to get to it. Instead she and he are hanging out, with music playing. 

They gotta be getting high, then having sex while high, and then waiting until clean enough to drive.

Might also explain why she keeps going back dong it. She likes getting high, the guys are providing her free drugs for sex.


----------



## maincourse99

T, hope you can get her out of the house. I appealed to my STBXW desire for freedom and all the responsibility involved with the house. Was at my mothers' in the fetal position, but there was no way she and the POSOM were going to live in my house with my daughter if I could prevent it.

She left, thank God, and my D is final in 3 weeks. She's making overtures, looks like she's angling for R, but reading your story and others, it just isn't worth the risk. I hope you can visualize how great your life is going to be in the future without the incredible stress of having this cheater in your life.

Single or with someone else, i wish you peace and happiness.


----------



## Thoreau

YOUR sunroom.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Does she smoke cigarettes?
> 
> If this was a simple hook up and have sex in a car she wouldn't be there for 4 hours with him. If they wanted to talk then have sex m why not go to a restaurant or someplace more comfortable.
> 
> The only reason I can think to stay on the car that long is to get high. Meth, pills, coke, something. The fact that she has sex later in the session reinforces that. If they were meeting for sex., they'd both be eager to get to it. Instead she and he are hanging out, with music playing.
> 
> They gotta be getting high, then having sex while high, and then waiting until clean enough to drive.
> 
> Might also explain why she keeps going back dong it. She likes getting high, the guys are providing her free drugs for sex.


I listened to most of it. They had sex twice that I can tell. Almost right away then about an hour later. They had some Kuhlua. She drank that right before sex. When I confronted her about it she said she threw it away last week because there was just a little bit left. I know because I was going to have some two weeks ago and there was about an inch left in the bottle. She told the guy she likes in on ice cream and that this taste like ice coffee, and he said "gulp it". No drugs she was just bad talking me. There was not enough to get drunk. She wanted more after they had sex the first time and the OM said it is all gone as there was just a little bit in there. The conversation that I could make out did not involve pot or any other drugs.

Look she did this before in 2011. Spent 3 to 4 hours in the car with the other OM. This is what she does.


----------



## Thorburn

maincourse99 said:


> T, hope you can get her out of the house. I appealed to my STBXW desire for freedom and all the responsibility involved with the house. Was at my mothers' in the fetal position, but there was no way she and the POSOM were going to live in my house with my daughter if I could prevent it.
> 
> She left, thank God, and my D is final in 3 weeks. She's making overtures, looks like she's angling for R, but reading your story and others, it just isn't worth the risk. I hope you can visualize how great your life is going to be in the future without the incredible stress of having this cheater in your life.
> 
> Single or with someone else, i wish you peace and happiness.


I doubt that she found anyone who she wants a permanent relationship with. She never talked to him about leaving me. She never did. I firmly believe an exit A was not in her mind. Doesn't matter but that is how she is wired, I am her security.


----------



## Thorburn

Thoreau said:


> YOUR sunroom.


Yea sun room. They enclosed the front porch back in the 60's and put up ugly white paneling and a drop ceiling. I tore it all out and started to make it rustic looking with barn beams, etc. The ceiling is about 9 feet high.


----------



## Shaggy

I'd find out who works at the janitor service. Most janitors where I live don't speak englidh much, or have an accent. Did the OM have an accent? If not you just narrowed the search down big time.

Also the times of the day she's calling there should be telling as well.


----------



## Thoreau

Thorburn said:


> Yea sun room. They enclosed the front porch back in the 60's and put up ugly white paneling and a drop ceiling. I tore it all out and started to make it rustic looking with barn beams, etc. The ceiling is about 9 feet high.



You misunderstood. you said "our" sunroom.

YOUR sunroom.


----------



## arbitrator

Thorburn: Hearing about the presence of drugs/weed makes the demeanor of this woman sound even more atrocious. No wonder that the vast majority of her very own family is richly treating her like an outcast. To ask a very blunt question from a family perspective, exactly what is it that she brings to the table other than gross infidelity, mass deception, and apparent widespread usage of drugs?

"Tough love," like you've tried to advocate with her is not, and will not work with her. Some people will just not adhere to any aspect of it no matter what!

The most important person to save here is yourself, and that must be done through "letting her go!" If there is ever contrition to be had, she must walk "the straight and narrow" of her own accord.

Quit trying to descend to her level for whatever reason~ she put herself into the position that she's in and therefore must try to pull herself up out of that vast canyon that she's in. You can no longer bring yourself to her low level, whether it's drugs or whatever to help inately try to foster any kind of accord with her.

Our greatest concern right now is to see that you are the one that truly gets salvation from all of this. Not her! She must come to the cross on her own!


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> I'd find out who works at the janitor service. Most janitors where I live don't speak englidh much, or have an accent. Did the OM have an accent? If not you just narrowed the search down big time.
> 
> Also the times of the day she's calling there should be telling as well.


he speaks english well. No accent.


----------



## Thorburn

arbitrator said:


> Thorburn: Hearing about the presence of drugs/weed makes the demeanor of this woman sound even more atrocious. No wonder that the vast majority of her very own family is richly treating her like an outcast. To ask a very blunt question from a family perspective, exactly what is it that she brings to the table other than gross infidelity, mass deception, and apparent widespread usage of drugs?
> 
> "Tough love," like you've tried to advocate with her is not, and will not work with her. Some people will just not adhere to any aspect of it no matter what!
> 
> The most important person to save here is yourself, and that must be done through "letting her go!" If there is ever contrition to be had, she must walk "the straight and narrow" of her own accord.
> 
> Quit trying to descend to her level for whatever reason~ she put herself into the position that she's in and therefore must try to pull herself up out of that vast canyon that she's in. You can no longer bring yourself to her low level, whether it's drugs or whatever to help inately try to foster any kind of accord with her.
> 
> Our greatest concern right now is to see that you are the one that truly gets salvation from all of this. Not her! She must come to the cross on her own!


Thanks man. I have been praying. I am just trying to keep my head together.


----------



## bfree

Thorburn,

You work on your own car, you learned how to work with wood and remodeled your own house, you are a vet and counsel people who need help and you have people posting in your thread that haven't posted in a very long time. My friend, if you ever even for a moment start to think bad of yourself STOP. I'm probably as old as you but you remind me so much of my uncle. He was universally loved, a true man's man and a decorated WWII vet. When he got sick with cancer there was always someone at his house not for sympathy but because he was such a great person to be around people would travel to him. When he passed away there was standing room only at the funeral. They had to put a speaker outside so people could hear the service.

Do not let her and what she has done define you in any way. None of this is your fault and nothing on this planet could have prevented this. You are going to see how great life can be. Take care of yourself mentally and physically. Get something to eat. When you are up to it go take a walk to clear your head. You are going to be ok.


----------



## Thorburn

bfree said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> You work on your own car, you learned how to work with wood and remodeled your own house, you are a vet and counsel people who need help and you have people posting in your thread that haven't posted in a very long time. My friend, if you ever even for a moment start to think bad of yourself STOP. I'm probably as old as you but you remind me so much of my uncle. He was universally loved and a true man's man and a decorated WWII vet. When he got sick with cancer there was always someone at his house not for sympathy but because he was such a great person to be around people would travel to him. When he passed away there was standing room only at the funeral. They had to put a speaker outside so people could hear the service.
> 
> Do not let her and what she has done define you in any way. None of this is your fault and nothing on this planet could have prevented this. You are going to see how great life can be. Take care of yourself mentally and physically. Get something to eat. When you are up to it go take a walk to clear your head. You are going to be ok.


Thanks. I know this is not my fault. All I ever wanted was my wife to be by my side and it was obvious that she did not care and lives one big lie.


----------



## ing

Thorburn said:


> Thanks. I know this is not my fault. All I ever wanted was my wife to be by my side and it was obvious that she did not care and lives one big lie.


Yes, and it hurts like fck. It is 3am here and I have triggered badly on this thread mainly for the reason I did not go on your original thread. Your wife is beyond help. My wife was beyond help. That hurts. 
Their lives will be [and are] shattered. The things your wife took so much for granted in you, are not something she will probably ever have again. You generously gave her the opportunity to reconcile. You worked at it. You changed your life. You tried to build a new life with her. 
She didn't though it away for love. She threw it away for dirty sex. That is how much she values you. 

I do wonder how a person can get so low, but it doesn't really matter now. 
That woman has gone. She was there, now she is not. 
Let Go. Keep letting go every minute of every day. 

I am so sorry that it turned out this way. You know your self better now, and that is a good thing, you know your limits and nobody will ever breach them again. Look after yourself today. Take the Meds. Eat something healthy.


----------



## Thorburn

bfree said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> You work on your own car, you learned how to work with wood and remodeled your own house, you are a vet and counsel people who need help and you have people posting in your thread that haven't posted in a very long time. My friend, if you ever even for a moment start to think bad of yourself STOP. I'm probably as old as you but you remind me so much of my uncle. He was universally loved, a true man's man and a decorated WWII vet. When he got sick with cancer there was always someone at his house not for sympathy but because he was such a great person to be around people would travel to him. When he passed away there was standing room only at the funeral. They had to put a speaker outside so people could hear the service.
> 
> Do not let her and what she has done define you in any way. None of this is your fault and nothing on this planet could have prevented this. You are going to see how great life can be. Take care of yourself mentally and physically. Get something to eat. When you are up to it go take a walk to clear your head. You are going to be ok.


Talking about your Uncle. When my oldest brother died in 1995 the family came to me and asked me to do the funeral. I was in ministry at the time and had never done a funeral. I refused at first. The family SIL, nieces, etc put so much pressure on me that I finally gave in. I have done over a hundred funerals since then (I gave up my ordination last year). My brother died from Agent Orange that he was exposed to in Vietnam. His funeral was the largest I ever attended. Same as you uncle's. Standing room only, speakers outside as there was too many to fit inside the building and it was a large place. Over 60 Vietnam Vets from across the country came to his funeral that he served with there.


----------



## Shaggy

Thorburn said:


> he speaks english well. No accent.


Ok, that means owner or supervisor guy most likely, especially if he's answering phones at the office.

You have his voice on the var, so someone could go there with a var and talk to the people there , you could compare .

Did she ever refer to him by name on the var?


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Ok, that means owner or supervisor guy most likely, especially if he's answering phones at the office.
> 
> You have his voice on the var, so someone could go there with a var and talk to the people there , you could compare .
> 
> Did she ever refer to him by name on the var?


With the music playing most of the time I did not hear a name. It is over three hours so I have not listened to the whole thing. I kept skipping forward. I really don't have the energy to do that right now until it is cleaned up.

At first I did not want to expose just move on but if I can find who it is, if he is married etc then I will. I am not going to go nuts this time.

I guess I know where he works no other reason for her to call there. The fact that she knows I can see where she is calling shows me that she does not care.


----------



## Shaggy

I understand how you feel about all of this.

You need to understand that the game being played has changed and the rules are new. She is caught and you are going to D. The old game was her cheating and not getting caught.

The new game is her and you going to D and her intending to grab as much security, money, assets, power, advantage as she can.

The devious energy she put into hiding the cheating, but still keeping the cheating very active, having a burner phone, carving out hours of time, covering her tracks, lying to your face. ALL that energy and deviousness is now being redirected at taking you in the D.

It looks like she has been coached on cheating. If so she likely has been coached on raking you over in the D, not just financially but emotionally and spiritually.

I'm betting that more than one of women hairdressers she works with have been divorced, not to mention the women she cuts hair for.

You can protect yourself by recognizing the game is different and that she is a formidable opponent. 

You counter formidable opponents with knowledge and intelligence.

You watch and lean what they do choose to do, and be wary of believing they will act how you want them to.

You also guard your rear to make sure you don't get flanked.

You also identify and remove all support infrastructure from the opponent that is can.

This is why you need to know who she was with. How she met him and the others.

Exposing the OM will hopefully remove his support.

If you can find out his she finds them and hooks up, you can expose her and have her rejected by that community.

If you can disrupt her communications you cut off her ability to call for support.

If you can isolate her, disrupt her confidence, take away her initiative then you can move from reacting to the battle field to directing it.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> I understand how you feel about all of this.
> 
> You need to understand that the game being played has changed and the rules are new. She is caught and you are going to D. The old game was her cheating and not getting caught.
> 
> The new game is her and you going to D and her intending to grab as much security, money, assets, power, advantage as she can.
> 
> The devious energy she put into hiding the cheating, but still keeping the cheating very active, having a burner phone, carving out hours of time, covering her tracks, lying to your face. ALL that energy and deviousness is now being redirected at taking you in the D.
> 
> It looks like she has been coached on cheating. If so she likely has been coached on raking you over in the D, not just financially but emotionally and spiritually.
> 
> I'm betting that more than one of women hairdressers she works with have been divorced, not to mention the women she cuts hair for.
> 
> You can protect yourself by recognizing the game is different and that she is a formidable opponent.
> 
> You counter formidable opponents with knowledge and intelligence.
> 
> You watch and lean what they do choose to do, and be wary of believing they will act how you want them to.
> 
> You also guard your rear to make sure you don't get flanked.
> 
> You also identify and remove all support infrastructure from the opponent that is can.
> 
> This is why you need to know who she was with. How she met him and the others.
> 
> Exposing the OM will hopefully remove his support.
> 
> If you can find out his she finds them and hooks up, you can expose her and have her rejected by that community.
> 
> If you can disrupt her communications you cut off her ability to call for support.
> 
> If you can isolate her, disrupt her confidence, take away her initiative then you can move from reacting to the battle field to directing it.


Thanks this is the advice I need right now. I am keeping quiet. She asked me to help her price all our pewter, knick knacks, antiques for a sale at our antique business. I said I would help her. She started pricing things and asked me to help and I said you did not say right now and I am not in the mood.

I know she will rake me over the coals. Believe you me she is not taking any responsibility for her actions. She is blaming me. She is so pathological I feel sorry for her.

If my son and oldest BIL can get her family to have a united front things could go better for me. I know if her sister and younger brother would just get tough with her she would break. I don't want her back. But I know her well enough that she has had legal advice, she told me. 

Honestly, I do not know what to do on my own. Bills, accounts, insurance, etc. I know I can get help on this. She won't leave yet. If the OM could take her in she would have left. I suspect he is married. She will take our dog and my special needs son with her and he can be troubleson. Right now he hates me and will not talk to his brother. He has a mind of a 12 year old (he is 28).

I know what can happen in D and you are right in pointing out that she will be formidable. That is why I will not say much. Anything I say will be used against me. Even me not helping her price antiques. She will tell her support that I am not helping get money we need right now.

Part of me does not care. I am rated 60% disability with the VA. I could get 100% if I wanted to. I won't because then I can't work and I am in position to get promoted into a fairly hig position in about a year and that will be much more then disability pay even with Social Security that I would be elgible for as well. My Military retirement does not kick in for about 4 more years and she will get half of about $2200.00 a month. I am told she can't touch my disability payments but not sure, I am told that she can get the increase for me being married which comes out to about $60.00 a month but she will not be entitled to any of my disability other then the extra for being married. Her chemo is about $6,000.00 every 8 weeks and she will be on it for the rest of her life. She stopped it in 2011 and one toe froze, her condition affects her small joints. If she does not have the treatment all her fingers, toes, ect. will eventually freeze up. I will have to keep insurance on her, I think. If I cancel her insurance or if I D I believe I will then have to pay the expensive Cobra payments and that will definitely wipe me out. I am not sure but I do believe I will be responsible for her insurance. 

None of this is stopping me from eventually filing for D. But I need to keep hearing from you and others that she will get nasty because she can put on a good front and say I won't do that or I will do this and I know it is a lie. She will take care of herself and will not care about me.


----------



## MattMatt

Shaggy said:


> Does she smoke cigarettes?
> 
> If this was a simple hook up and have sex in a car she wouldn't be there for 4 hours with him. If they wanted to talk then have sex m why not go to a restaurant or someplace more comfortable.
> 
> The only reason I can think to stay on the car that long is to get high. Meth, pills, coke, something. The fact that she has sex later in the session reinforces that. If they were meeting for sex., they'd both be eager to get to it. Instead she and he are hanging out, with music playing.
> 
> They gotta be getting high, then having sex while high, and then waiting until clean enough to drive.
> 
> Might also explain why she keeps going back dong it. She likes getting high, the guys are providing her free drugs for sex.


Either that or OM is known in the area, so WS didn't want to have one location with OM?

Maybe she has a fetish about sex in cars?


----------



## Thorburn

MattMatt said:


> Either that or OM is known in the area, so WS didn't want to have one location with OM?
> 
> Maybe she has a fetish about sex in cars?


She started smoking and got me started when she had her first known A in 1999. They are not doing drugs, I am fairly certain. As to the car. She told me last time that she does not so that she is in control of where she is and who she is with. She dropped him off at his house and called me right after she dropped him off. I can't see where the call came from yet but the next billing cycle will tell me approximately where she was on the bill. Our phone service does that. Depends where the tower is and how many there are. That is how I know in 2011 where she was by her using the phone. Dumb me showed her that. I guess she called me right after dropping the OM off at her house because she thought I believed her that she was at work. I will know maybe in a month if not sooner. Her work site is West and I believe she hooked up North of us. Time will tell. I do know his voice.


----------



## MattMatt

I wonder if she thinks that because you are a counsellor that it doesn't matter if she cheats, because you can 'fix' yourself?

Unless she is riding a pink unicorn under fluffy golden clouds? Trouble is, those pink unicorns just love to give people the horn. And they are carnivorousness, too...


----------



## Shaggy

Ok, stop smoking. Today. That just got you back some $$$$


----------



## Thorburn

Found the location. It was not North. It was close to where she works. The billing cycle ended on Wed. so I can see where she was to a point. So I narrowed it down. He may work up North but even then it is an hour drive. Might be multiple guys. When she was talking to me on the phone for 39 minutes she would tell me what intersection she was at and it does make sense that she came from near her work location. Some of the intersections she mentioned she could not have remembered so I am certain it is someone from work or nearby.


----------



## Shaggy

Could he be the guy who supplies janitorial service to her place of business or the mall it's in?


----------



## Anabel

As others have said, she needs to be out of the house as soon as possible for the sake of your own mental health.

I might have misunderstood, but it seemed like you originally said you do have her computer? If so, and you'd like help getting information off it (as long as you'd have that right by law), I have connections to an expert in the field who enjoys using his powers for good rather than evil. I understand if you want to just get her out and get it over with. But if you decide you need that info for your own protection or peace of mind, let me know if we might be of service. (Can't guarantee anything til I speak to this person but I'll do my best).


----------



## Thorburn

Anabel said:


> As others have said, she needs to be out of the house as soon as possible for the sake of your own mental health.
> 
> I might have misunderstood, but it seemed like you originally said you do have her computer? If so, and you'd like help getting information off it (as long as you'd have that right by law), I have connections to an expert in the field who enjoys using his powers for good rather than evil. I understand if you want to just get her out and get it over with. But if you decide you need that info for your own protection or peace of mind, let me know if we might be of service. (Can't guarantee anything til I speak to this person but I'll do my best).


I can't afford this at this time. If you feel comfortable you can PM me and I can say more. I trying to be careful here. Yes that computer I bought and we both used it.


----------



## Anabel

Thorburn said:


> I can't afford this at this time. If you feel comfortable you can PM me and I can say more. I trying to be careful here. Yes that computer I bought and we both used it.


Yep. I'll get back to you as soon as possible, need to make a phone call. It may be several hours from now but I'll post or send a message.


----------



## Thorburn

My oldest BIL called me (he is a pastor) and has been a good friend to me. He called his sister a whor*. That I do not deserve this. We talked for a long time. He gets it. Her younger brother and middle sister don't. He feels if they cut their support to her by listening to her that this may turn her around. Also the fact that I am now dead serious about D and having to have to care for a 95 lb. dog, a special needs son (who needs both of us to control him), he started drinking and using drugs when I went to Iraq and my wife could not control him, less income, he said she has no clue what is going to happen her. He said no one in the family wants a whor* to live with them though her younger brother and sister will not turn her away. Legally her younger brother can't have overnight guests due to the state law and they do foster care. Her middle sister is a mental case (she always has been), grieving the lost of her husband, on the brink of loosing her house, was denied disability, has no income, and things are falling apart in her house, yet maybe she thinks my WS will be able to provide money if she let's her in. Believe you me when I say I kind of hopes this happens. My wife will get sick of her complaining, panic attacks, anxiety, and wacky ways and to have my son there in their faces saying I need pot, I want to go to this heavy metal concert 3 hours away, I want this and I want that without ever stopping. Waiting at the door when you first get up in the morning, calling you countless times during the day. 

My BIL says he just does not get it. Living the life of a whor* and blaming me. He laughed and says her blaming me makes no sense at all that it is completely loony.


----------



## MattMatt

Thorburn said:


> My oldest BIL called me (he is a pastor) and has been a good friend to me. He called his sister a whor*. That I do not deserve this. We talked for a long time. He gets it. Her younger brother and middle sister don't. He feels if they cut their support to her by listening to her that this may turn her around. Also the fact that I am now dead serious about D and having to have to care for a 95 lb. dog, a special needs son (who needs both of us to control him), he started drinking and using drugs when I went to Iraq and my wife could not control him, less income, he said she has no clue what is going to happen her. He said no one in the family wants a whor* to live with them though her younger brother and sister will not turn her away. Legally her younger brother can't have overnight guests due to the state law and they do foster care. Her middle sister is a mental case (she always has been), grieving the lost of her husband, on the brink of loosing her house, was denied disability, has no income, and things are falling apart in her house, yet maybe she thinks my WS will be able to provide money if she let's her in. Believe you me when I say I kind of hopes this happens. My wife will get sick of her complaining, panic attacks, anxiety, and wacky ways and to have my son there in their faces saying I need pot, I want to go to this heavy metal concert 3 hours away, I want this and I want that without ever stopping. Waiting at the door when you first get up in the morning, calling you countless times during the day.
> 
> My BIL says he just does not get it. Living the life of a whor* and blaming me. He laughed and says her blaming me makes no sense at all that it is completely loony.


One day, Thorburn, my wife was having a rant at me. Apparently someone had upset her, but she was taking it out on me.

I then knew what the problem was. I even invented a name for it. I called it NHS, or Nearest Human Syndrome. 

When things go wrong, some people have a tendency to want to blame someone. The person they blame is the Nearest Human. Usually their spouse.

Your wife believes she has a s****y life. It can't be easy having a manchild of 28 going on 12 living at home. She can't blame him, it's not his fault.


> _Wait! That Thorburn! He got me pregnant with him! It's gotta be his fault! How do I punish him? Yeah! I'll break his heart by having affairs! _


Of course, 99.9% of this would be subconscious, so she would not understand why she has to cheat on you. She only knows she has to.


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## Granny7

Thorburn said:


> Is there anyone who can help me clean up the recording. She has music playing and some things are hard to hear. I have enough proof but I would like to get this clean and clear.


Hi,
I use to be a singer and would take out certain instruments or fine tune the song. I think it was called, "Garage Band" but it's been a while, so you can look into it. I'm so sorry to hear about all that's going on, you've got to be beside yourself right now.
Blessings, Granny7


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## jim123

Do not give custody. Have you attorney use a PI to get evidence and require she pass a pychological exam. What she does is a danger to her and those arround her. The impact on her mental state will get worse over time. Her problem is potentially serious.

You need to protect your son.


----------



## Mike11

Thorburn said:


> My oldest BIL called me (he is a pastor) and has been a good friend to me. He called his sister a whor*. That I do not deserve this. We talked for a long time. He gets it. Her younger brother and middle sister don't. He feels if they cut their support to her by listening to her that this may turn her around. Also the fact that I am now dead serious about D and having to have to care for a 95 lb. dog, a special needs son (who needs both of us to control him), he started drinking and using drugs when I went to Iraq and my wife could not control him, less income, he said she has no clue what is going to happen her. He said no one in the family wants a whor* to live with them though her younger brother and sister will not turn her away. Legally her younger brother can't have overnight guests due to the state law and they do foster care. Her middle sister is a mental case (she always has been), grieving the lost of her husband, on the brink of loosing her house, was denied disability, has no income, and things are falling apart in her house, yet maybe she thinks my WS will be able to provide money if she let's her in. Believe you me when I say I kind of hopes this happens. My wife will get sick of her complaining, panic attacks, anxiety, and wacky ways and to have my son there in their faces saying I need pot, I want to go to this heavy metal concert 3 hours away, I want this and I want that without ever stopping. Waiting at the door when you first get up in the morning, calling you countless times during the day.
> 
> My BIL says he just does not get it. Living the life of a whor* and blaming me. He laughed and says her blaming me makes no sense at all that it is completely loony.




Thor I see a big Red Bus rolling on to town, it is the Karma Bus, I think Very Shortly the Karma Bus is going to stop and pick your WW, she is in for a ride, These ladies are living in Lala land and when they do land eventually it is a crash landing so better stay away


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## Thorburn

Her plan yesterday was to move back into our other house so she can be with her boys. I said what about our youngest son and the tenant? She said that it is "my house". Little does she know that another tenant just moved in and signed a lease today and that my son will not live there with his mother.

Any thing can happen in the next minute, hour, days, etc. I think I will loose my shirt for a while but at the present time and most of the day I have rather upbeat. I guess I will hit bottom again tonight when the meds run their course. These meds do take the edge off.

She looks miserable.


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## Thorburn

Can't prove it but I think I found her hook up site. She signed up for a job site a long time ago. Posted her picture, email, phone number and our current address. Posted her profile for housecleaning, dog walking and senior care. Anyone there can see it. Most of her emails are gone from this site and I have not snoop around it to see everything but I imagine it went like this.

Some guy looking for a dog walker, house cleaner or caregiver for their senior parents saw her pic and how easy it was to contact her. I will have to go through the phone records and maybe I can figure it out. 

In 2010 all the guy on FB said was "you are pretty" and she was hooked, having cyber sex.

I think this might be how she did it some dude responded and it went from there.


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## Thor

Thorburn, don't make any concessions or assumptions what you will owe her after divorce. Her medical insurance for example is not normally your responsibility after divorce. You two may agree to keep it under your insurance (if it is legal when divorced?) because it is cheaper but the cost should be hers to pay.

With your retirement there will be a lot of legal precedent. What I wonder is if the long term cheating could set a date prior to today. As I understand it with government pensions she is entitled to a percentage based on how long she was with you while you were qualifying for the pension. So if you were in for 20 years and she was married to you for 10 of those years, she would be entitled to half your pension.

Perhaps because her cheating was so extensive your lawyer could argue she was out of the marriage a long time ago, so her claim on your pension would be a lot less. Dunno, just thinking of ways to keep her from getting money from you.


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## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> I can't afford this at this time. If you feel comfortable you can PM me and I can say more. I trying to be careful here. Yes that computer I bought and we both used it.


The computer we are speaking about is yours because you paid for it, if you get my drift. Even though it is currently missing, it could be found, couldn't it? That's one of them hypothetical questions that you do not have to answer.

Would it be so bad, if, hypothetically speaking, the computer you own, reappears, in your house with the nice little addition of a keylogger.


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## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> Her plan yesterday was to move back into our other house so she can be with her boys. I said what about our youngest son and the tenant? She said that it is "my house". Little does she know that another tenant just moved in and signed a lease today and that my son will not live there with his mother.
> 
> Any thing can happen in the next minute, hour, days, etc. I think I will loose my shirt for a while but at the present time and most of the day I have rather upbeat. I guess I will hit bottom again tonight when the meds run their course. These meds do take the edge off.
> 
> She looks miserable.


What a pigging shame she looks miserable. :smthumbup: Meanwhile, please tell me you will not let her have the dog. The dog must stay with you. I would not leave her in charge of a dog. Heaven knows what might happen.


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## Count of Monte Cristo

Shaggy said:


> I understand how you feel about all of this.
> 
> You need to understand that the game being played has changed and the rules are new. She is caught and you are going to D. The old game was her cheating and not getting caught.
> 
> The new game is her and you going to D and her intending to grab as much security, money, assets, power, advantage as she can.
> 
> The devious energy she put into hiding the cheating, but still keeping the cheating very active, having a burner phone, carving out hours of time, covering her tracks, lying to your face. ALL that energy and deviousness is now being redirected at taking you in the D.
> 
> It looks like she has been coached on cheating. If so she likely has been coached on raking you over in the D, not just financially but emotionally and spiritually.
> 
> I'm betting that more than one of women hairdressers she works with have been divorced, not to mention the women she cuts hair for.
> 
> You can protect yourself by recognizing the game is different and that she is a formidable opponent.
> 
> You counter formidable opponents with knowledge and intelligence.
> 
> You watch and lean what they do choose to do, and be wary of believing they will act how you want them to.
> 
> You also guard your rear to make sure you don't get flanked.
> 
> You also identify and remove all support infrastructure from the opponent that is can.
> 
> This is why you need to know who she was with. How she met him and the others.
> 
> Exposing the OM will hopefully remove his support.
> 
> If you can find out his she finds them and hooks up, you can expose her and have her rejected by that community.
> 
> If you can disrupt her communications you cut off her ability to call for support.
> 
> If you can isolate her, disrupt her confidence, take away her initiative then you can move from reacting to the battle field to directing it.


The Art of War by Shag Tzu. Nice!


----------



## vi_bride04

Louise7 said:


> What a pigging shame she looks miserable. :smthumbup: Meanwhile, please tell me you will not let her have the dog. The dog must stay with you. I would not leave her in charge of a dog. Heaven knows what might happen.


:iagree:

My dogs have kept me sane quite a few times. And you can't trust her to even be responsible for the care of the dog. She would probably just get rid of it anyways....

KEEP THE DOG (if you can) they really help when things get tough


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## Louise7

vi_bride04 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> My dogs have kept me sane quite a few times. And you can't trust her to even be responsible for the care of the dog. She would probably just get rid of it anyways....
> 
> KEEP THE DOG (if you can) they really help when things get tough


I want to apply for custody of the dog. Where do I sign please?


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## Thorburn

Louise7 said:


> The computer we are speaking about is yours because you paid for it, if you get my drift. Even though it is currently missing, it could be found, couldn't it? That's one of them hypothetical questions that you do not have to answer.
> 
> Would it be so bad, if, hypothetically speaking, the computer you own, reappears, in your house with the nice little addition of a keylogger.


I am OK with Rudy (our Golden) going with her. He is a great dog but I will not have the time to take of him myself. For me it will be just another thing she will have to think about. Also the two cats, a mixed one and the Himalayan. I am trying to unburden myself from all attachment with her.


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## SaltInWound

Thor said:


> With your retirement there will be a lot of legal precedent. What I wonder is if the long term cheating could set a date prior to today. As I understand it with government pensions she is entitled to a percentage based on how long she was with you while you were qualifying for the pension. So if you were in for 20 years and she was married to you for 10 of those years, she would be entitled to half your pension.


Only partially correct. The spouse gets 50% if married to the service member 20 years during the active duty service. So, in other words, she would have to have been married to him the moment he enlisted until the end of 20 years when he retired. For less years married during active duty, the percentage of the retirement is reduced. The 10 years marriage rule only is significant for ensuring the spouse doesn't have to depend on the service member to send her the payments....it would be automatically sent in an allotment from his pay each month. It is a common misconception.

In my case, we have been married 22 years, but pension division depends on the active duty years, not overall number of years married. He served 24 years, but we were only married 15 of those, so I would definitely get less than 50% of the retirement. Since I was married 15 of those active duty, I won't have to worry about him skipping out on the payments. The gov will send it to me each month.

Unless his wife was married to him for 20 years of his active duty, she is going to lose her medical care. Marriage for 15 but less than 20 of those active duty years means she will only get 1 year of medical care post divorce. Less than 15 she gets nothing.


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## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> I am OK with Rudy (our Golden) going with her. He is a great dog but I will not have the time to take of him myself. For me it will be just another thing she will have to think about. Also the two cats, a mixed one and the Himalayan. I am trying to unburden myself from all attachment with her.


I get the unburdening from her and the responsibility. I just like dogs. I like cats too. My kitten is my salvation in dark times. She makes me get up and feed her. 

Bloody hell, I just wish this woman would shove off to anywhere, including just sleeping in the damn car she seems so fond of.


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## Thorburn

SaltInWound said:


> Only partially correct. The spouse gets 50% if married to the service member 20 years during the active duty service. So, in other words, she would have to have been married to him the moment he enlisted until the end of 20 years when he retired. For less years married during active duty, the percentage of the retirement is reduced. The 10 years marriage rule only is significant for ensuring the spouse doesn't have to depend on the service member to send her the payments....it would be automatically sent in an allotment from his pay each month. It is a common misconception.
> 
> In my case, we have been married 22 years, but pension division depends on the active duty years, not overall number of years married. He served 24 years, but we were only married 15 of those, so I would definitely get less than 50% of the retirement. Since I was married 15 of those active duty, I won't have to worry about him skipping out on the payments. The gov will send it to me each month.
> 
> Unless his wife was married to him for 20 years of his active duty, she is going to lose her medical care. Marriage for 15 but less than 20 of those active duty years means she will only get 1 year of medical care post divorce. Less than 15 she gets nothing.


I have a little over 38 years of Active, Guard and Reserve time. About two years left on my IRR commitment. We have been married 29 years. My retirement will start at age 60 minus my combat time. So it will be about 3 more years. She will get half and perhaps the health plan under Tricare.

I am still waiting for my attorney to call. He is very good, known him for years in the Army but he can procrastinate in making contact. I will not speculate on anything. It does seem like health insurance ends with a divorce but a judge can order it to be paid for after the D. 

Depending on what the attorney says, he will give me free initial advice, I may go with a shark. He is not a shark but is thorough.


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## Shaggy

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> The Art of War by Shag Tzu. Nice!


In death ground, fight.


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## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> I have a little over 38 years of Active, Guard and Reserve time. About two years left on my IRR commitment. We have been married 29 years. My retirement will start at age 60 minus my combat time. So it will be about 3 more years. She will get half and perhaps the health plan under Tricare.
> 
> I am still waiting for my attorney to call. He is very good, known him for years in the Army but he can procrastinate in making contact. I will not speculate on anything. It does seem like health insurance ends with a divorce but a judge can order it to be paid for after the D.
> 
> Depending on what the attorney says, he will give me free initial advice, I may go with a shark. He is not a shark but is thorough.


Hmmm.....I am not familiar with reserve time and benefits concerning insurance and divorce. The divorce lawyers I have spoken to (former JAG) all tell me the same thing concerning my circumstance as far as Tricare. 

Go with a shark to protect yourself and depend on her lawyer to not know the correct wording for the final paperwork. If the wording is wrong, she will practically need an act of god to correct things to get your retirement.


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## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> In death ground, fight.


Bro you said it. I am not sharing my legal stuff with anyone. Not her brothers, my sons, no one. I know my son shared some things in anger that was OK to say but I would have rather them not be said.

So I have been fairly quiet on many things. I feel right now with her in the house I have to really watch what I say. I am sure she is getting good legal counsel. I wish she would leave. I am not leaving. I wish she would leave then I could get some tenants in here. I have a four bedroom house, two baths, a two garage that I could rent out.


----------



## the guy

Start teasing her about the crap you heard an the VAR! Maybe she will leave sooner rather then later.
I suggest the next time she goes out you tell her you consider this abandonment and will start backing her things and change the locks.....

I know, its easy for me to say but thas just me thinking outside the box.


You are stuck between a rock and a hard place, but it sounds like you have been there before and will come out on top when all is said and done.

Again if it was me I would be razing her every chance I could.

maybe you can get her a walker for her B-day next week. HEHEHEHE. Man I'm bad!


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## the guy

Start getting broches on old folks homes and giving her them, and suggest that they could be her next apartment.....

Sorry I just can't stop!!! LOL


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## 3putt

the guy said:


> Start teasing her about the crap you heard an the VAR! Maybe she will leave sooner rather then later.
> I suggest the next time she goes out you tell her you consider this abandonment and will start backing her things and change the locks.....
> 
> I know, its easy for me to say but thas just me thinking outside the box.
> 
> 
> You are stuck between a rock and a hard place, but it sounds like you have been there before and will come out on top when all is said and done.
> 
> Again if it was me I would be razing her every chance I could.
> 
> *maybe you can get her a walker for her B-day next week.* HEHEHEHE. Man I'm bad!


Or maybe a box of Depends for Valentines Day. At the rate she's going, she's going to need them sooner or later.

I do have an awesome idea for some serious "in your face" stuff if you're interested. You seem way too above that though, so I'll just wait and see if you inquire.


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## Shaggy

I like the teasing idea. 

For instance quote the guy and her. Always say I'm choosing the back door. The front smells nasty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

Woke up. I am going to our other house later today as it is my youngest son's birthday. Just before I got up to step outside I thought I might tell the WS who is stressing about money to ask "backdoor man" or as I prefer "stinky" to reimburse for the gas, use of my zebra print blanket I had in Iraq,, phone and air time. And to contact "Willie" from 2011 to reimburse her for all the gas that she spent driving him around and the almost $1,000.00 she spent on the burner phone and air cards. I have records of that on our credit cards. Well I going to try to go back to sleep.


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## Thorburn

Even with the sleeping pill I have been awake most of the night.

I know people are praying for me and/or sending me positive thoughts because I now have a plan.

1. When my WS gets up I will ask her if she wants to talk. If she does I will say I will not support you, catch you and watch you self destruct. Call "back door man" or as I prefer "stinky" and ask him for half the gas money you spent, half the cost of the phone and air time and oh yea I want rent for the Zebra print blanket that I had in Iraq that you had in the back of the Jeep and used as a bed. Call Willie from 2011 and ask him for half the $1,0000.00 dollars that you spent on your burner phone and air time (I have credit card records) and ask him to reimburse you for driving everytime you met.

I am not telling my wife this part of the plan:

2. I am going to see my youngest son in our other house. It is his birthday today. I am going to propose that he contacts my sister, brother, and his cousins. My niece just inherited a million bucks from her mother, my ex SIL when she died. It was my brother's money, so it was nice to see it come back into the family. Ask them to help me with $9,000.00. Send it to him. He can then get it to me as I need it. I need to get my truck fix, finish getting my professional license, will need attorney fees, pay for some classes for my license.

3. My son did carpentry work before he became a design engineer so I will ask him to add a bedroom to our finished basement. Take his brother in (which he is willing to do) and ask his mother to give him his Social Security check (which I know is one thing she is counting on to live on.

4. I am going to ask my son to have my brothers and sister call my BIL (the pastor). I am asking him to do this because he knows the story and it would be better coming from him instead of my wife accusing me of telling lies etc.

5. The folks I lived with for several months are artists. He is out of work. If my wife leaves I will invite them to move in and he can help me keep my furniture refinishing business going that I just started. they are somewhat strange at first. She has tons of tattoos, piercings, etc but is a sweet girl. He looks like a small version of Lurch but I get along with them. My WS and I just had then over last weekend.

I will tell my wife, where are you going to go with a 28 year old special needs man (I am not telling my wife my plan), two cats, and a 95 lb dog? And since we are broke, credit cards maxed out, how will you even going to pay for gas?

I have taken care of a special needs man since 1995. I helped him get a part time job, he lives independently, take him shopping, etc. I pay his rent and bills as I am his pay rep. He lived about 1/2 hour from me in the other home now it is almost two hours. Well, I manage his money and will take a small amount out today for gas, ask my son to reimburse me. I don't use this man's money for my personal use. My wife has asked me to use it to pay our bills but I won't.

So right now that the plan.

Oh yea, I forgot. My one nephew (my sister's) son is a computer brainiac. Went to college for it and is making six figures. I am going to ask him if he can help my wife find our computer that she claims I took from her. All I remember is putting it on a chair and she left five minutes later. I told her I think she smashed it up like she did her phone in 2010 and 2011. That is what I think she did with it. If not there has to be a way to locate it since it has wifi on it. He might just be able to find it.


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## Thorburn

So pathological and unreal. I talked to my WS. told her I am going to be with our son which should be both of us for his birthday. She said I sent him a text this morning and will celebrate with him later. I told her to contact stinky or back door man for money. She said I am crazy. I went through some of the tape verbally and she look at me with a straight face and said I am making this all up. I said I am not going to watch you crash and burn. She says she has a great support group, is getting jobs and looks horrible. I told her that she is doing things animals don't do. Anal, etc. She said I am twisting things that it never happened. She said she should have left me years ago that I cheated on her by looking at porn. I said knock it off, i said You could have left if that was a problem, but you turning into an animal moaning like a two dollar ***** in our car is sick. I said you are sick. She said oh and you are Mr. Righteous. I said compared to you I am and I will not allow you to bring me down. I said I will not help you to sell things, I did my part by posting on CL's. She said the bills are in your name not mine. (I thought ha, ha, so she can be free and clear, not the way the law works)

I said in all my years of counseling you have the worst case of denial I have ever seen, even when confronted with the evidence you deny. I am glad I have copies now. Her story to everyone will be it did not happen, or that is from another time or whatever.

She is not the person I knew even when I came home on Wednesday after having sex twice. She gave me a kiss and was smiling. I wish I had a video of her. She sits there so smug but looks gaunt and washed out.

I said your world is crashing down and she said that is what you want but I know who I am and know what I am going to do and my world is not crashing.

I am serious, in all my years of being a counselor and a chaplain this is by far one of the worst cases I have ever seen. I have dealt with multiple personality disorders, bi-polar, schizophrenia, addictions, suicidal ideation and attempts, depression, anxiety, all kinds of disorders but this one is up there with some of the worst cases I have dealt.

Her story is you looked at porn. I said what you have become is sick and less then an animal. She said that is your opinion and I did none of those things.

I get it if she does not want to admit to me but she is telling everyone else the same thing.

I hope I can get my family to help. Perhaps giving the money to my son to control will give them a feeling that I will not blow it or do something crazy with it.


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## Shaggy

Thorburn,

You might want to rethink using any money you manage for someone else. That's a very slippery slope. Very very slippery even for a man of integrity like you.

I'd arrange to be back home tonight and hour or two earlier than she is expecting you to be. I'm thinking she is desperate and will likely pull something. It's especially telling that she isn't visiting her son on his birthday.

Remember cornered animals do not act rationally or in their own best interests. You are trusting her too much.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> You might want to rethink using any money you manage for someone else. That's a very slippery slope. Very very slippery even for a man of integrity like you.
> 
> I'd arrange to be back home tonight and hour or two earlier than she is expecting you to be. I'm thinking she is desperate and will likely pull something. It's especially telling that she isn't visiting her son on his birthday.
> 
> Remember cornered animals do not act rationally or in their own best interests. You are trusting her too much.


I now don't have to do that. She gave me twenty dollars. It was money I knew about and asked her for it. 

What can I do about her doing anything? She will be here with our son, he is supporting her. 

Thanks for the trusting part. You are right. Man I need TAM.

Thanks


----------



## Shaggy

You can't. 100% prevent her from doing anything, but you can make it harder for her by not being predictable and not showing your hand.

Coming back hours earlier than you say you will be is an example. It makes it hard for her to make plans and schedules around you.

Btw, I think this is a big part of how she has pulled this off for so long. She's had both a lot of freedom and she's known when and where you are at. Makes her job of planning stepping out all the much easier.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> You can't. 100% prevent her from doing anything, but you can make it harder for her by not being predictable and not showing your hand.
> 
> Coming back hours earlier than you say you will be is an example. It makes it hard for her to make plans and schedules around you.
> 
> Btw, I think this is a big part of how she has pulled this off for so long. She's had both a lot of freedom and she's known when and where you are at. Makes her job of planning stepping out all the much easier.


On the same token it is how I knew. She was so predictable. I was in denial but she went back to her old behaviors. Not answering the phone, lying about where she was when I knew where she was, saying she was talking to neighbor for hours at a store, saying she had to go to work on Wednesdays and then having semen in her (man I thought I was just paranoid that day). My youngest son is saying the same thing. He said he told his mother you need to tell dad where you are at and answer the phone, he said after dad went through what do you expect. She said he is just paranoid. And my son told me it was because she was hooking up or trying to hook up with men that caused me to be that way and he gets it.


----------



## Shaggy

I keep trying to say knowledge is power. You need to have good intelligence, and you need to disrupt her intelligence gathering.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> I keep trying to say knowledge is power. You need to have good intelligence, and you need to disrupt her intelligence gathering.


Got it. It has always been difficult not to show my hand. Speak my mind. When things bother me I have to let it out. With my WS I have always expected the same but she does not share things. Never did. She told me several times that I am not a good listener, that I speak over her, and that I never took time to know her. I am a great listener. I do occasionally speak over her but she does that to me but I am engaged in the conversation. I have spent much time getting to know her and have been there for her.


----------



## dogman

Thorburn said:


> So pathological and unreal. I talked to my WS. told her I am going to be with our son which should be both of us for his birthday. She said I sent him a text this morning and will celebrate with him later. I told her to contact stinky or back door man for money. She said I am crazy. I went through some of the tape verbally and she look at me with a straight face and said I am making this all up. I said I am not going to watch you crash and burn. She says she has a great support group, is getting jobs and looks horrible. I told her that she is doing things animals don't do. Anal, etc. She said I am twisting things that it never happened. She said she should have left me years ago that I cheated on her by looking at porn. I said knock it off, i said You could have left if that was a problem, but you turning into an animal moaning like a two dollar ***** in our car is sick. I said you are sick. She said oh and you are Mr. Righteous. I said compared to you I am and I will not allow you to bring me down. I said I will not help you to sell things, I did my part by posting on CL's. She said the bills are in your name not mine. (I thought ha, ha, so she can be free and clear, not the way the law works)
> 
> I said in all my years of counseling you have the worst case of denial I have ever seen, even when confronted with the evidence you deny. I am glad I have copies now. Her story to everyone will be it did not happen, or that is from another time or whatever.
> 
> She is not the person I knew even when I came home on Wednesday after having sex twice. She gave me a kiss and was smiling. I wish I had a video of her. She sits there so smug but looks gaunt and washed out.
> 
> I said your world is crashing down and she said that is what you want but I know who I am and know what I am going to do and my world is not crashing.
> 
> I am serious, in all my years of being a counselor and a chaplain this is by far one of the worst cases I have ever seen. I have dealt with multiple personality disorders, bi-polar, schizophrenia, addictions, suicidal ideation and attempts, depression, anxiety, all kinds of disorders but this one is up there with some of the worst cases I have dealt.
> 
> Her story is you looked at porn. I said what you have become is sick and less then an animal. She said that is your opinion and I did none of those things.
> 
> I get it if she does not want to admit to me but she is telling everyone else the same thing.
> 
> I hope I can get my family to help. Perhaps giving the money to my son to control will give them a feeling that I will not blow it or do something crazy with it.


Thornburn, the only people who matter are your kids and maybe a few others. Anyone else is not important and you can't stop a person from lying even in the face of irrefutable evidence.

Make sure the people who matter know the truth by hearing the recording.

It brings to mind the Eddie Murphy standup comedy routine of the guy caught cheating by his girl. 

She says "you cheated"
He says " wasn't me"
She says "I saw you coming out of her house"
He says "wasn't me"
She says " I saw you kissing her" 
He says "wasn't me"

How do you argue with a liar


----------



## Mike11

Thorburn, Please stop engaging her, I know you want to get answers, but she has non to offer, the more you engage with her the more she has power to blame shift and to feed of the negative emotions, you must stop engaging even if it is very tempting and hard to do, Shaggy's advice is priceless, Knowledge and information are power and at this moment you are giving it to her on a silver plate, I know it is hard but you must change gears to battle mode, she does not have any value of you as a person at this moment and she will do anything she can to take you to the cleaners in order to survive.


You need to get to a state of indifference and very fast, and as such no emotional reaction to her, you must get to a point that you let her go in your mind, and that means truly let her go, treat her like you treat any stranger that is stepping in your office, formalities only.
You must understand that when you engage her the way you did and trying to show her how bad she is, it will achieve exactly the opposite, she is not capable (at this moment in time at least) to fully understand what she has done, and you trying to point her to the right direction is futile and comes across as very very weak, you must cut off all conversations with her other than Divorce or your sons well being and logistics. that is it, she has lost any right for any support from your being any emotions emotional needs or anything else.


Stay strong, confident, don't talk to her at all, make plans of your sons b day as if she does not exist, the sooner you detach the faster she will fall


----------



## Thorburn

Mike11 said:


> Thorburn, Please stop engaging her, I know you want to get answers, but she has non to offer, the more you engage with her the more she has power to blame shift and to feed of the negative emotions, you must stop engaging even if it is very tempting and hard to do, Shaggy's advice is priceless, Knowledge and information are power and at this moment you are giving it to her on a silver plate, I know it is hard but you must change gears to battle mode, she does not have any value of you as a person at this moment and she will do anything she can to take you to the cleaners in order to survive.
> 
> 
> You need to get to a state of indifference and very fast, and as such no emotional reaction to her, you must get to a point that you let her go in your mind, and that means truly let her go, treat her like you treat any stranger that is stepping in your office, formalities only.
> You must understand that when you engage her the way you did and trying to show her how bad she is, it will achieve exactly the opposite, she is not capable (at this moment in time at least) to fully understand what she has done, and you trying to point her to the right direction is futile and comes across as very very weak, you must cut off all conversations with her other than Divorce or your sons well being and logistics. that is it, she has lost any right for any support from your being any emotions emotional needs or anything else.
> 
> 
> Stay strong, confident, don't talk to her at all, make plans of your sons b day as if she does not exist, the sooner you detach the faster she will fall


Thanks again. This is what I need to hear. Man it is so hard. You guys are so right. You get it and you get me and I thank you from the bottom of my broken smashed heart. I go back through my mind and think if she would have just engaged me the way she did these men our marriage would be out of this world.

Like I said before she said her A in 2010 and 2011 was because I had no passion when I got back from Iraq the first night. I had E.D. Never happened to me before. Man I wanted to but things did not work. I got severe pains down there and we went from the hotel to the E.R. I was examined and the doctor gave me Viagra. When we got back to the hotel my wife had to tell me to stop after hour of love making. When she brought that up I said no passion. I said I was fixed within two hours and you had to beg me to stop. And it goes on and on and every excuse that she had made no sense and I told her that. Her response on about a dozen of them was Oh, yea I forgot. 

Then she said the porn was it. She got support from some in her family and that is what she has stuck to ever since, it was because you looked at porn and I should have left you years ago.

Yea, I know I should stop this, going back and just move forward. At least I can vent here.

Will try to detach. I just want things to be as I thought they were before. I was a fairly happy, calm guy until this happened. I have two promotions to look forward to in Federal service if I get my license, one automatically the other might come after six months of the first one. My mind could not concentrate the past year to study for the exam. Now I need to do it, even if it means she will end up with more money.

Man I need to detach.


----------



## cpacan

Thorburn said:


> Will try to detach. * I just want things to be as I thought they were before.* I was a fairly happy, calm guy until this happened. I have two promotions to look forward to in Federal service if I get my license, one automatically the other might come after six months of the first one. My mind could not concentrate the past year to study for the exam. Now I need to do it, even if it means she will end up with more money.
> 
> Man I need to detach.


Thorburn, I am so sorry you are back - you were one of those I started to follow when I arrived at CWI.

Yes, you need to detach effectively and fast, otherwise you will get sucked into the drama and lose a bit of your self. Indifference, indifference, indifference. Avoid her.

And the bolded part? You know it isn't possible, right? So let it go, man. Look at what is, you don't want that.

Take care of yourself. I'm sending positive thoughts your way here from Europe on a frosty, but also sunny day.


----------



## Thorburn

Can't go to see my son. His new roommates talked him into going out with them.

He feels uncomfortable talking to my family about money. So I called my sister and she did not answer left a message. I can't call my mother, she is getting over pneumonia and is now frail.

All I really need right now is to get over this money crunch, get my truck inspected and have some reserve cash and my stress level will go down. So I can focus on detaching and working with an attorney.


----------



## Mike11

Thorburn that is bullcrap, sorry, lame excuse, Porn is not the reason, she is grasping at straws to find blame to throw at you and and to convince herself why she did these horrible things, and again please don't talk to her about it and let it go, every time you bring it up with her she will turn that as your fault, and there is nothing you can do to change her behavior she is very broken, had been for long time. 

It will only change when she is going to hit rock bottom, you must stop all engagement as if she is a stranger, no more medical assistance, no more insurance either, cut her off both emotionally and financially, i know it is hard, but you must implement the 180 ASAP


----------



## alte Dame

I would bet that your W is imploding inside. She's in her 50's, right? These are incredibly important years for a woman, a real turning point. These are the years where she truly knows that there is no going back to youth, no fooling anyone.

You say she looks bad. Of course she does. She's dissipated and older and her body doesn't cover it up anymore. When a woman breaks a relationship at this age, she knows inside that it's for the rest of her life. If you tell me she looks haunted, I'll believe it. She's probably looking down the tunnel of the rest of her life and it looks terrifyingly empty. And she's brought this all herself. Dissipated, indignant, falsely proud, mendacious. A real mess that you will hopefully detach from now. Tragic all around.


----------



## cantthinkstraight

Thorburn said:


> Man I need to detach.


:iagree: 

Thorburn, everyone here is pulling for you, bro.

The sooner you can get to detaching and putting the focus on 
the type of life you know you deserve and less on what she 
thinks or says... the better your life will be.


----------



## Fisherman

alte Dame said:


> I would bet that your W is imploding inside. She's in her 50's, right? These are incredibly important years for a woman, a real turning point. These are the years where she truly knows that there is no going back to youth, no fooling anyone.
> 
> You say she looks bad. Of course she does. She's dissipated and older and her body doesn't cover it up anymore. When a woman breaks a relationship at this age, she knows inside that it's for the rest of her life. If you tell me she looks haunted, I'll believe it. She's probably looking down the tunnel of the rest of her life and it looks terrifyingly empty. And she's brought this all herself. Dissipated, indignant, falsely proud, mendacious. A real mess that you will hopefully detach from now. Tragic all around.


You should leave this post out for her to read.


----------



## cantthinkstraight

I wish I could post a picture somewhere of my stbxw
before and after her A. The difference is downright *scary*.

Before: Shiny blonde hair, beautiful sparkling blue eyes, exuded radiance, glowing smile.

After: Gray, tattered looking, acne, wrinkles.

Sparkle go *poof*.


----------



## Thorburn

Jkw4338 said:


> You should leave this post out for her to read.


She asked me for the computer and I said not I am busy. I will not let her on here. She has been using my son's. She said how is your little support group going?


----------



## cantthinkstraight

Thorburn said:


> She asked me for the computer and I said not I am busy. I will not let her on here. She has been using my son's. *She said how is your little support group going?*


Oh, so she feels threatened by you having support?

Tell her it's more pleasurable than anal with strangers.


----------



## Thorburn

Called my older brother and told him the story. He said is there any way to work it out. I said I can never say never but I gave it till August last year and things looked like they were working out (yea there were signs during this time looking back). He said well if you gave it to August and this is what you got I understand. I asked him to speak to the family about money. Told him that they can give it to my son to control so I don't do anything crazy with it. His son is home from college and it is his birthday and he was heading out. He will call me this evening.


----------



## Thorburn

cantthinkstraight said:


> Oh, so she feels threatened by you having support?
> 
> Tell her it's more pleasurable than anal with strangers.


She said she has a good support system. I know in the end her family will rally more around her. Blood is thick. My oldest BIL told the family that this will have an affect on me because we are close (at least some of them are close to me) and we will be abandoning him. But that is the way things like that goes.


----------



## Mike11

Thorburn said:


> She asked me for the computer and I said not I am busy. I will not let her on here. She has been using my son's. She said how is your little support group going?


Thorburn Please please tell me you did not answer her....

Please do not Engage target, Disengage


----------



## SaltInWound

cantthinkstraight said:


> Oh, so she feels threatened by you having support?
> 
> Tell her it's more pleasurable than anal with strangers.


:rofl:


----------



## arbitrator

cantthinkstraight said:


> * Oh, so she feels threatened by you having support?
> 
> Tell her it's more pleasurable than anal with strangers.*


 *"Slam Dunk! And One!"*


----------



## Jasel

Sounds like you really just need to stop acknowledging and talking to her. Easier said than done I know but it really doesn't seem to be helping at all. If you can't divorce because you're short on money or unless it has something to do with the kids, what else is their to talk about besides trading barbs?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Let's say I agree that it was your lack of passion and a porn addiction that caused problem in your marriage.

There is this weird thing called *COMMUNICATION*. You know, that weird thing she uses to get people to believe YOU are the problem. It is like a foreign word in relationships and I do not know why.

Why is she telling you NOW, in 2013, about problems that started in 2010.

That's her idiocy and many WS's stupidity in this situation. Try hard to stop unnecessary communication, post here, call someone or go for a walk.


----------



## cantthinkstraight

It's what cheaters do. They deflect. It's their only hope.
They'll spew vague and illogical lies in order to divert you
from the truth. 

I cheated because I have to remind you to put the toilet seat down.
I cheated because you don't unroll your socks.
I cheated because it's warm outside.

The list goes on.... pathetic, weak and insulting.


----------



## Thorburn

Just got off the phone with her older brother. He is a good friend, gets it but I have to be careful what I say. Anyway a good talk. He told me that he never got the connection between my WS and his middle sister. My WS is two years younger then her middle sister. When my WS was 10 or 11 her sister would use her as a screen to meet up with her future husband, my BIL who died last year. She was 12 he was 18. My wife would tell me stories of smoking pot, making out with guys in the back seat of the car when she was 11 and did not like it. She said her sister and future BIL would sneak off to have sex. Her sister told her. Now this is the sister in her "support group". Anyway this sister told my oldest BIL that my WS has no plan. She does not know what she is going to do.

Oh well. I am disengaged at the moment and to do so the rest of the day.


----------



## Thorburn

Just read this article

Divorce | Pennsylvania Family Law Blog


Issues of Middle-Age that May Lead Women to Divorce
Philadelphia Divorce Attorney	| January 14, 2013

As women reach age 50-something, they may start to wonder if this is all there is to life. Whether or not this is a mid-life crisis, middle age is a time of questioning whether women are where they want to be. As was reported in The Huffington Post, many married middle-aged women said they no longer wanted to be married to their husbands. They were finished with marriage. They were not happy. They felt doomed to live the rest of their lives the way they had up to the present.
Midlife Changes

Midlife is an anxiety-filled time for women. Family law attorneys are familiar with just how difficult making the decision of whether or not to divorce can be.

Middle-age Issues that may lead certain women to think about divorce include the following:

Age 48 is the pivotal year for women’s unhappiness.
At midlife, women are coping with menopause.
Children have left home for college and/or careers, leaving behind an empty nest.
Women’s roles as nurturers lessen.
Women begin to see themselves losing their youth and beauty.

Women may be married to good, caring men but they simply do not want to be married anymore; they have fallen out of love. They may have been once inspired by the Eat, Pray, Love syndrome, but after the intense work of raising a family and managing a home, and often after balancing family caretaking with professional careers, women want to stop nurturing others and begin to nurture themselves.

Two-thirds of all divorce proceedings are started by women, many of whom do very well after their divorces. According to one AARP (American Association of Retired Persons) study, most divorced middle-aged women do find someone new.

Pennsylvania family law attorney Sheryl R. Rentz knows how trying the decision to divorce can be, no matter at what age that decision is made. If you are a resident of Pennsylvania considering divorce, call Ms. Rentz at (866) 290-9292 to talk about how best to proceed.


----------



## alte Dame

But your W doesn't sound like the norm at all.

I can attest to the 50+ yo W feelings. Much of what is written in that blog resonates. Your W's behavior is far from typical, though. She reminds me of a hopeless alcoholic who has finally decided that it's OK to drink herself into oblivion. That person sees the end in sight, but no longer can stop it or cares to stop it.

What happens to a healthy 50+ yo woman is that she has spent so many years focusing on children that she wakes up one day and BAM, she's 50 years old. It literally seems like yesterday that she was 30. It's extremely disorienting in the best of circumstances & when you add the hormones of menopause to the mix, it can be awful.

But your W isn't a healthy woman mentally or emotionally. She just isn't. She may have her come-to-Jesus moment still, but it's going to take something more than ERT. She shows real pathology, in my opinion.


----------



## cantthinkstraight

My stbxw is only 38 and had most of the same symptoms.

Go figure.


----------



## happyman64

cantthinkstraight said:


> I wish I could post a picture somewhere of my stbxw
> before and after her A. The difference is downright *scary*.
> 
> Before: Shiny blonde hair, beautiful sparkling blue eyes, exuded radiance, glowing smile.
> 
> After: Gray, tattered looking, acne, wrinkles.
> 
> Sparkle go *poof*.


Acne or Herpes Simplex Virus???


----------



## bfree

cantthinkstraight said:


> My stbxw is only 38 and had most of the same symptoms.
> 
> Go figure.


Overachiever?


----------



## 3putt

happyman64 said:


> Acne or Herpes Simplex Virus???


----------



## Thorburn

Talked with my neighbor for an hour or so. He gets it. Nice diversion.


----------



## Thorburn

happyman64 said:


> Acne or Herpes Simplex Virus???


Just checked to see if my labs result are posted in my Veteran's medical account for STD's that I had done on Thursday morning. Nothing yet. I am really hoping that I had something show up that they treated me for that is cured. I will not tell her. At least the Dr. told me I did not Herpes.


----------



## diwali123

I'm sorry she is such a horrible person. 
She is denying it because she doesn't want you to be able to use it against her in court. I would stop talking about it. There's no point. 
I'm sure she knows what she did. She's not denying it to herself. She's not crazy, just a liar.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

diwali123 said:


> I'm sorry she is such a horrible person.
> She is denying it because she doesn't want you to be able to use it against her in court. I would stop talking about it. There's no point.
> I'm sure she knows what she did. She's not denying it to herself. She's not crazy, just a liar.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know. And I will stop talking to her.


----------



## happyman64

I know how sad you are Thorburn.

You so badly wanted this reconciliation to be the second set of happy years to come.

They still can be happy. Just not with her.

You are sad for her now. You realize the woman you loved, love, is not the woman in front of you. Lying to you. Being deceitful to you. Cheating on you.

So make up your mind that no matter what happens you will be happy.

You have your boys. You have your career. You have your home.

Make this 2nd half of your life count.

Your wife is broken, so very broken. She can no longer be the person you wnat her to be.

At certain point in life you need to protect yourself. Get out before you lose your mind, family and future.

I think that time is now for you.

And as many people that might have called you crazy for Reconciling all I will say is you tried. You tried for her, for yourself for your boys.

There is nothing to be ashamed for or about.

Now get out. And do it for yourself.

HM64


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> I popped a Sertraline HCL a few minutes ago and it is starting to work. I have these pills for my PTSD but I never took them, but I thought I better now. took one yesterday and man it really takes the edge off.


*Cheating spouse trumps combat PTSD.*

If there are any wayward spouses out there reading this thread, who just don't get what the big deal is, consider the above.

T


----------



## Shaggy

Thorburn, you got her on the ropes. Good. Now you need to shake up her world.

Call the place she's been calling, leave the following message,

"Hi this is XXX's husband, and thid message is for the guy she was with last Tuesday afterboon that like ps it in the back door. Just wanted. You to know, gotcha!"

Say nothing else. No threats implied or real. Just enough to shake him up, you won't him dumping her hard and fast. You want him worried that she's going to cause him grief.

For bonus points leave a payback of him saying it on the call.

Sit back and watch the fireworks.


----------



## Thorburn

Fell asleep. Needed it. My WS was watching T.V. earlier. No words since this morning. She has been texting her younger brother and middle sister but not very much. She has made no phone calls since early last night. Of course she could have her burner phone. She left the house once. We have a bunch of phone cards.

She just looks lost right now.

I am taking Monday off - have to go to work on Tuesday.

Hoping that the family decides to help me out. Told them to talk to my son about how to handle the money.

My attorney has not called so I will look for another one tomorrow. I don't know any here so I will try to find a friend in the area who can recommend one to me.

I don't want to do anything else that may hurt me legally.


----------



## AngryandUsed

Sorry Thorburn.

Take care of yourself. New place. Tough things to handle. Head spinning.

I am really sorry for you.

Prayers.


----------



## dymo

Thorburn said:


> She asked me for the computer and I said not I am busy. I will not let her on here. She has been using my son's. She said how is your little support group going?


During your time in R, did you ever show her your posts on TAM?

Any chance she is reading this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

3putt said:


> Agree completely. I have NEVER seen anyone in a marriage get in the slightest bit of trouble for putting a recording device, video camera, or GPS in their own home or vehicle.
> 
> Ever!!
> 
> The day something like that becomes illegal in this country is the day I leave this country.


It is illegal in several states, all in the NE. ALL parties must have given consent before they can be recorded. Pretty F-d up if you ask me.


----------



## Granny7

Thorburn,

You have been given such great advice from so many helpful people on here. I pray that you are listening, as you've got so much to deal with. My heart goes out to you and I will be praying for you.

My D-day occurred over 26 yrs. ago 11/6/87 after 25 yrs. of marriage. 

If you put my name in there you can read my story, as it's so similar to yours, except that my husband isn't psychotic. After 5 yrs. of therapy, me basically, as he didn't talk very much. I finally decided to forgive and move on, which I thought I did. I think I stuffed it under the rug as my brain couldn't handle the betrayal. We had been married 25 yrs. when I found out and I couldn't handle it. I tried to kill myself twice, actually 3 times, but couldn't do it because I would have been leaving my 3 children and new grandchildren. That's the only reason I didn't kill myself, not because of him. He also wasn't very remorseful, I couldn't get any answer's so I finally met with the OW. That was so hard to do and she did give me some information and did seem sorry for what she had done, but who knows. They could have been getting their stories together. Their's so much more to this story, but you can read it if you would like to under General Relationship Decisions. 

Over 25 years ago, after a Retro weekend to save our marriage (he was there because he thought it would keep us together not to learn anything) that's when I made the decision to stop trying to find out the truth, love, forgive and move on with my life. So moved forward, we had 7 grandchildren to love, vacations, family events, and were generally pretty happy. The one big issue was he still did his social drinking, like 2 or 3 full glass's of wine every night. It was much worse in large groups, or any social functions. That was one of the main problems in our marriage as it changed his personality. That, along with his control and lack of emotional support for me and not treating me special as his wife were the things I endured for over 20 yrs. BUT I HAD FORGIVEN HIM AND DIDN'T BRING IT UP AGAIN! Sure their were triggers and he could see the look on my face, but no long discussions.

Then about 4 yrs. ago, the drinking got worse, stock market crash, lost $100,000 dollars of money, or daughter owed us $10,000 and wasn't paying it back and said she couldn't do it then, even though she promised. Just a lot of things at one time, lack of interest in sex and when we did have sex, I usually suggested it and he wasn't much into it.

All this made me think back on my decision to stay, regretting that I stayed, but it was hard to leave my marriage as I did still love him. I looked back on my marriage and realized that I had given everything in the marriage and he just took me for granted. I knew he loved me, but it was a selfish love. This made me think of the affair and started thinking about the things that I never found out. 

So I started looking for a marriage counselor for myself as my panic attacks had gotten worse, depression, etc. I didn't know what was going on with me. We spoke of things never getting settled, shoved under the rug and him never showing empathy for what he did. Called PTSD and that's what she felt was happening to me.

I also still don't know if they had sex on the two weekend's that they went off on and the 2 lie detector tests were non-conclusive in that area. I still feel it had to do with him not being able to perform. Now I am severely depressed, don't care much about life, never smile around him, don't want him touching me as I feel so angry inside that he ruined our life over a "****" that he was only in it was fun. This lasted for over 3 yrs., now I can't get it out of my mind. Him loving her, sleeping with her, wether they had sex or not, wasting those 3 yrs. of our life, along with 5 yrs. of therapy afterwards and fighting, etc., so that was wasted also. Then he wasted the past 3 yrs. of our life again due to his not wanting to love or care for me. I just want to run away and hide. 

Now he has stopped drinking on his own for over a year. He is trying to be more loving and would be fine if I never asked him any questions about the affair and that's not what I will accept to live with him. I'm 69 now, have spent the last 51 yrs. of my life with him and the whole situation makes me so sad.

Due to what I mentioned above my feelings for him started changing. I started falling out of love for him, didn't feel anything, no respect, nothing. I tried, but it didn't feel natural to me, so that's why we are in separate rooms. 

I wanted to ask you about the medication that you were taking called Sertraline HCL for PTSD. I don't know if that is what is happening to me or not. It's strange that I did pretty well for 20 yrs. and then everything fell apart. My psychiatrist wants me to go on Zoloft which is what I was on after the affair, but I didn't like it and sure don't want to take it so that I can laugh with him. I am looking for a new therapist, but was curious as to if the medication helped you to not dwell on the past things so much, enjoy life and not focus so much on the negative things? I am so tired of all this and just want to run away and hide.

Sorry this is so long, just depressed tonight and it's so hard to sleep sometimes and also not to know what to do. Divorce, separate, try and forgive again? 

I am so proud of you, that you have had the courage to do what needs to be done and believe me, I agree with everyone on here. Get out as soon as possible, but most of all, DON'T ENGAGE IN ANY CONVERSATION WITH HER, it probably just makes her happy and I'm sure she gets off on it. Stay strong, you can do this!

Blessings,

Granny7


----------



## ing

Thorburn said:


> I am serious, in all my years of being a counselor and a chaplain this is by far one of the worst cases I have ever seen. I have dealt with multiple personality disorders, bi-polar, schizophrenia, addictions, suicidal ideation and attempts, depression, anxiety, all kinds of disorders but this one is up there with some of the worst cases I have dealt.
> 
> Her story is you looked at porn. I said what you have become is sick and less then an animal. She said that is your opinion and I did none of those things.
> 
> I get it if she does not want to admit to me but she is telling everyone else the same thing.
> .


You know why it looks so bizarre? Because you have absolute proof that she did the things she did. Imagine if you did not have that tape, think how effective the denial would be then. 

My ExW refused to acknowledge anything even when I printed off her emails to the OM. 
She STILL continues to deny large chunks of her life to everyone. 
This continual lying to your face with a smug expression is very damaging to you.
In the end I set my ExW up. I organised a MC session with the proviso that she not in any way contact the OM. She agreed then went to see him in the four days between agreeing and the MC session. I was calm on the outside. Inside I was dying. 

In the session I asked her directly if she had seen him. She denied it and denied it. I then produced the proof in front of the Psych and she STILL denied it. The psyche got her to partially admit to it and it was like watching a person wake up and find themselves in hell. It lasted the length of the session plus about a day and then straight back to anger that I had "spied on her' and done terrible damage to our relationship by exposing her " like that"
I was desperate and could no longer handle the lies. I just wanted them to stop at any cost.. 

I think so many people accept the crap they are told. They WANT to believe it so the WS gets away with it. 

Whatever she thinks of you it is ONLY HER OPINION and does not in any way define you. Stay away from her. Avoidance is a valid strategy in this case. A tactical retreat to preserve your mental health!


----------



## Thorburn

Granny7 said:


> Thorburn,
> You are being such great advice from so many helpful people on here. I pray that you are listening, as you've got so much to deal with. My heart goes out to you and I will be praying for you.
> 
> I too am going through a lot with my CS, but mine occurred over 25 yrs. ago, but the way he started treating me badly, not physically, just mentally and he wasn't happy either. This past year has been the worse and it's not getting any better. I moved into the other room a few weeks ago and he's not happy either. We are just living together and that's about it.
> 
> I thought about a year ago and me seeing marriage counselor by myself as my panic attacks had gotten worse, depression, etc. If you put my name in there you can read my story, as it's so similar to yours, except that my husband isn't psychotic. After 5 yrs. of therapy, me basically, as he didn't talk very much. I finally decided to forgive and move on, which I thought I did. I think I stuffed it under the rug as my brain couldn't handle the betrayal. We had been married 25 yrs. when I found out and I couldn't handle it. I tried to kill myself twice, actually 3 times, but couldn't do it because I would have been leaving my 3 children and new grandchildren. That's the only reason I didn't kill myself, not because of him. He also wasn't very remorseful, I couldn't get any answer's so I finally met with the OW. That was so hard to do and she did give me some and did seem remorseful. Their's so much more to this story, but you can read it if you would like to under General Relationship Decisions.
> 
> Then fast forward over 20 yrs. later after a Relationship weekend and then once a week for 6 weeks after that, but he never really participated, he was just there because he thought it would keep us together. He had ended it with her, didn't want a divorce, etc. We moved forward, having 7 grandchildren and focusing on them for happiness. We even did vacations and were generally pretty happy. The one big issue was he still did his social drinking, like 2 or 3 full glass's of wine every night, sick or not. It was much worse in large groups, or any social functioning. That was what was the main problem in our marriage, along with his control and lack of emotional support for me.
> 
> Then about 4 yrs. ago, the drinking got worse, stock market crash, lost $100,000 dollars of money, or daughter owed us $10,000 and wasn't paying it back and said she couldn't do it then, even though she promised. Just a lot of things at one time, lack of interest in sex and then I would feel like I was worked in to his time schedule.
> 
> All this made me think back on my decision to stay, regretting that I stayed, but it was hard to leave my marriage as I did still love him. I looked at my whole life and realized that I was giving everything in the marriage and he was just taking. I know he loved me, but it was a selfish love. So, I started falling out of love for him, didn't feel anything, no respect, nothing. I tried, but it didn't feel natural to me, so that's why we are in separate rooms. I also still don't know if they had sex on the two weekend's that they went off on and the 2 lie detector tests were non-conclusive in that area. I still feel it had to do with him not being able to perform. Now I am severely depressed, don't care much about life, never smile around him, don't want him touching me as I feel so angry inside that he ruined our life over a "****" that he was only in it was fun. This lasted for over 3 yrs., now I can't get it out of my mind. Him loving her, sleeping with her, wether they had sex or not, wasting those 3 yrs. of our life, along with 5 yrs. of therapy afterwards and fighting, etc., so that was wasted also. Then he wasted the past 3 yrs. of our life again due to his not wanting to love or care for me. I just want to run away and hide.
> 
> Now he has stopped drinking on his own for over a year, he is off and on trying to be more loving and would be fine if I never asked him any questions about the affair and that's not what I will accept to live with him. I'm 69 now, have spent the last 51 yrs. of my life with him and the whole situation is so sad and not necessary.
> 
> I wanted to ask you about the medication that you were taking called Sertraline HCL for PTSD. I don't know if that is what is happening to me or not. It's strange that I did pretty well for 20 yrs. and then everything fell apart. My psychiatrist wants me to go on Zoloft which is what I was on after the affair, but I didn't like it and sure don't want to take it so that I can laugh with him. I am looking for a new therapist, but was curious as to if the medication helped you to not dwell on the past things so much, enjoy life and not focus so much on the negative things? I am so tired of all this and just want to run away and hide.
> 
> Sorry this is so long, just depressed tonight and it's so hard to sleep sometimes and also not to know what to do. Divorce, separate, try and forgive again?
> 
> I am so proud of you, that you have had the courage to do what needs to be done and believe me, I agree with everyone on here. Get out as soon as possible, but most of all, DON'T ENGAGE IN ANY CONVERSATION WITH HER, it probably just makes her happy and I'm sure she gets off on it. Stay strong, you can do this!
> 
> Blessings,
> 
> Granny7


In my clinical practice I do refer Vets to psychiatrists who are quick to put everyone on meds. I am hesitant when it comes to psychotropics but, hey I am one now. Sertraline is Zoloft. For me it takes the edge off. Wear off in the evening though tonight it was not so bad. Does not take the memories or the bad feelings completely away but man it is helping.

I have seen very good results in some of my Vets with these meds and sleeping meds but some Vets it does not help. I do talk therapy and they tell me that it helps them more than anything else. 

Studies have shown that only about 50% of folks are helped with these meds and some have bad side effects to include suicidal thoughts.

I am not an M.D. but it took me up till this time to take them. I had them for a while but never took them.


----------



## Thorburn

Going to the bank today to open a new account, then to the VA hospital to H.R. to change my pay to this account and then have my disability check sent there as well.

It will be a pain to figure out the bills but might as well start.


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## Granny7

Thorburn said:


> In my clinical practice I do refer Vets to psychiatrists who are quick to put everyone on meds. I am hesitant when it comes to psychotropics but, hey I am one now. Sertraline is Zoloft. For me it takes the edge off. Wear off in the evening though tonight it was not so bad. Does not take the memories or the bad feelings completely away but man it is helping.
> 
> I have seen very good results in some of my Vets with these meds and sleeping meds but some Vets it does not help. I do talk therapy and they tell me that it helps them more than anything else.
> 
> Studies have shown that only about 50% of folks are helped with these meds and some have bad side effects to include suicidal thoughts.
> 
> I am not an M.D. but it took me up till this time to take them. I had them for a while but never took them.


Hi Thorburn,
I have taken Zoloft for 2 years, after finding out about the affair 25 yrs. ago. It did help me, but I had 2 problems with them. One, it would make me say things that maybe I wouldn't normally say to other people. The last problem being and they could never document this, my blood gas results that they got from the blood work was off the charts. I had to go to 3 different hospitals for them to do it again and compare them and this was after being on them for 2 yrs. They decided that it was the Zoloft, even though my leading Psychiatrist never agreed that it could cause this problem. But I had to go off it "cold turkey" and it was awful. That was the last time I took it, even though my new psychiatrist has given me a script and wants me to take it again. I just haven't been able to do it. I am looking for a new Psychiatrist that might look at it from a new prospective, along with a psychologist as I need someone to talk to, we both do if this is even going to work. God, I wish he had never done this to me. It's been 25 yrs. and I still hurt inside from the betrayal and he doesn't get it, he feels that I should be over it. He can't understand that it was never addressed by him and we didn't talk about it much. Even now, he can't seem to understand how hurt I feel inside every time I am reminded about it by places he took her, or affairs that seem to always be on TV. I hate him for doing this to us, I loved him so much and will never understand if you profess to love your spouse how you can do this to them? I still say that he didn't love me enough, loved himself more and couldn't resist this new attention from someone new. But enough about me, sorry about that, it should be about you. I've just been following you and how you came to terms with it after so many years, almost like I'm doing now. I still don't know if we are going to work this out. It's hard to find feelings when you are so angry with your life and your partner, no matter how they start making changes. It's the questions that have never been answered about the affair that is driving me crazy.

Anyway, hang in there, you are doing the right thing.

Granny7


----------



## Tony55

larry.gray said:


> It is illegal in several states, all in the NE. ALL parties must have given consent before they can be recorded. Pretty F-d up if you ask me.


Quoted from Sharon Macdonald
The Author Sharon Macdonald is a high-tech security specialist

"The 12 states which definitely require all parties to a conversation to consent before it can be recorded are:

California
Connecticut
Delaware
Florida
Illinois
Maryland
Massachusetts
Michigan
Montana
New Hampshire
Pennsylvania
Washington.
In California, there is an exception. You can record a conversation with the consent of only one party if certain criminal activity (kidnapping, extortion, bribery or a violent felony) is involved."​
So, not only in the North East.

T


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## Thorburn

Just came home from the bank. It was good. was able to do every thing I needed to get done, with no hassles. I came home and she went down in the basement. I think she is going to try to sell stuff to get money. Poor her.

Not sure if she will break this time or not but the money is being cut off.


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## turnera

Thank God.


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## Mike11

And Please do not engage with her at all, as if she is a stranger at this time, anything you may say can and will be used against you so you must treat her as a stranger until such time you and your assets are secured


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## Thorburn

Mike11 said:


> And Please do not engage with her at all, as if she is a stranger at this time, anything you may say can and will be used against you so you must treat her as a stranger until such time you and your assets are secured


That is what I am doing. I left the soup on the stove and burnt it, forgot i had it on. All she did was turn the burner off and said nothing.


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## happyman64

Day by day Thorburn. You know the drill.

Stay frosty.

Make a list of what needs to be done and check them off as you complete them. 

Bank Account. Check

Good Luck.


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## Thorburn

happyman64 said:


> Day by day Thorburn. You know the drill.
> 
> Stay frosty.
> 
> Make a list of what needs to be done and check them off as you complete them.
> 
> Bank Account. Check
> 
> Good Luck.


Bank, checked, Yea and it was sucky. The guy there was helpful and listened.

Contacted another attorney by phone and email waiting to hear. 

Got direct deposit forms for my work check and will submit that tomorrow. I don;t have to worry this week's pay. That is being taken care of by the bank.


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## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> Bank, checked, Yea and it was sucky. The guy there was helpful and listened.
> 
> Contacted another attorney by phone and email waiting to hear.
> 
> Got direct deposit forms for my work check and will submit that tomorrow. I don;t have to worry this week's pay. That is being taken care of by the bank.


Well done on securing your money. I'm sorry if I missed it, but why is this lowlife still living in the house?


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## Thorburn

Louise7 said:


> Well done on securing your money. I'm sorry if I missed it, but why is this lowlife still living in the house?


I am on the phone with my oldest BIL and he is saying is my WS has no plan. Her sister who is a mental mess might take her in but that will not last long. My WS's sister is a total mess. So yes she is still in the house


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## S4E

Granny7 said:


> Hi Thorburn,
> God, I wish he had never done this to me. It's been 25 yrs. and I still hurt inside from the betrayal and he doesn't get it, he feels that I should be over it. He can't understand that it was never addressed by him and we didn't talk about it much. Even now, he can't seem to understand how hurt I feel inside every time I am reminded about it by places he took her, or affairs that seem to always be on TV. I hate him for doing this to us, I loved him so much and will never understand if you profess to love your spouse how you can do this to them? I still say that he didn't love me enough, loved himself more and couldn't resist this new attention from someone new........I still don't know if we are going to work this out. It's hard to find feelings when you are so angry with your life and your partner, no matter how they start making changes. It's the questions that have never been answered about the affair that is driving me crazy.
> Granny7


Wow...this could have been written by me...word for word! I was married for almost 20 years, I thought of my wife as my "soulmate", and I believed we'd be that old couple on a parkbench someday... Now I see that old couple and I get angry. We did the same thing.. We received poor advice from a therapist and rugswept it all.. never got a lot of answers, didn't talk about it. My wife moved on from it and for me there were always triggers but I just kept it all in. It finally all came out about 2 years ago (The affair was about 12 yrs ago)...and the last 2 years have been very hard but necessary. After reading your story as well as Thorburns, I know for me this will never end unless I move on and that saddens me. My wife did make a lot of changes for the better but some of her "old ways" that brought this on in the first place still surface from time to time. I can't live my life out being angry and worrying if the hammer will fall.... My advice after all this. If you want to be with someone else, just leave. If someone cheats on you and after a few years it still eats at you..just leave cause from my experience it will never be 100% again unless you can justify what happened...I can't! Good luck Thorburn, no one can say you didn't try!


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## phillybeffandswiss

Thorburn said:


> Going to the bank today to open a new account, then to the VA hospital to H.R. to change my pay to this account and then have my disability check sent there as well.
> 
> It will be a pain to figure out the bills but might as well start.


Get online statements and set it up with a new email she cannot access.


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## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> I am on the phone with my oldest BIL and he is saying is my WS has no plan. Her sister who is a mental mess might take her in but that will not last long. My WS's sister is a total mess. So yes she is still in the house


She doesn't have a plan because she didn't plan on getting caught. Now she has been. I really wouldn't give too much of a stuff about her sister's mental health and if their living arrangements are satisfactory. It seems to me that your squatter is quite happy with your Iraq blanket and the back of the car. 

If I seem harsh, I don't mean to and I don't offer advice I wouldn't be prepared to act on myself. I have in the past taken my own advice and invited the ex to leave. I was really decent about it and helped him pack. I can't tell you the relief I felt at not having to share the same air as the scum. 

This woman has a place to go. She should go there. Yesterday.


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## Thorburn

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Get online statements and set it up with a new email she cannot access.


Did that. Changed everything.


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## PBear

Louise7 said:


> She doesn't have a plan because she didn't plan on getting caught. Now she has been. I really wouldn't give too much of a stuff about her sister's mental health and if their living arrangements are satisfactory. It seems to me that your squatter is quite happy with your Iraq blanket and the back of the car.
> 
> If I seem harsh, I don't mean to and I don't offer advice I wouldn't be prepared to act on myself. I have in the past taken my own advice and invited the ex to leave. I was really decent about it and helped him pack. I can't tell you the relief I felt at not having to share the same air as the scum.
> 
> This woman has a place to go. She should go there. Yesterday.


That's all fine to talk tough, but legally, it's her home too. Best he can do is get the legal pieces in place to boot her out. Or make things miserable enough that she leaves on her own. He could ask her to leave, but it's still her choice until the courts decide differently

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

WS contacted an attorney. I been tracking her cell phone.


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## Thorburn

PBear said:


> That's all fine to talk tough, but legally, it's her home too. Best he can do is get the legal pieces in place to boot her out. Or make things miserable enough that she leaves on her own. He could ask her to leave, but it's still her choice until the courts decide differently
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am detached. Not talking to her.


----------



## PBear

Thorburn said:


> I am detached. Not talking to her.


I think you're doing as fine as you can be, given the situation. I was just talking to some people who think you should have kicked her out last week. No matter how nice that might be, removing someone from your house that won't leave isn't an easy process. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Louise7

PBear said:


> That's all fine to talk tough, but legally, it's her home too. Best he can do is get the legal pieces in place to boot her out. Or make things miserable enough that she leaves on her own. He could ask her to leave, but it's still her choice until the courts decide differently
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As I say, I talk tough but I'm man enough to back it up. Yes, the law says, it's her house too. Same with me when I 'invited' the ex to leave. I called his mother, said he needed a place to stay and then I packed his stuff and told him mummy was expecting him. No drama, just simply 'you are leaving now...'


----------



## PBear

Louise7 said:


> As I say, I talk tough but I'm man enough to back it up. Yes, the law says, it's her house too. Same with me when I 'invited' the ex to leave. I called his mother, said he needed a place to stay and then I packed his stuff and told him mummy was expecting him. No drama, just simply 'you are leaving now...'


And if he refused, then what? Legally, he was likely entitled to stay. Just because you married someone you could cow doesn't mean everybody has.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Louise7

PBear said:


> I think you're doing as fine as you can be, given the situation. I was just talking to some people who think you should have kicked her out last week. No matter how nice that might be, removing someone from your house that won't leave isn't an easy process.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We must have been talking to the same people:smthumbup: My people say it's really all in the approach. The OP has a SIL that could take her in, even if she is completely nuts. So, call the SIL, tell her to expect the squatter in the next hour/2hours/day <add your specific time frame.> Pack her a bag, remembering of course to make sure she has condoms and at least 20 dollars. Wouldn't want to be accused of leaving her unsafe and without funds. Put the bag in the car, give her the car keys and walk her to the car.


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## Louise7

PBear said:


> And if he refused, then what? Legally, he was likely entitled to stay. Just because you married someone you could cow doesn't mean everybody has.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Someone I could cow??? Don't *dare*to assume that you know anything about me. No reason you should. So, let me spell it out.

I had evidence - hard evidence of this man's affair. I also had hard evidence of his nasty child porn habit. I laid it out in front of him one Sunday night. So, having gaslighted and bullied and abused for 10 years and having the evidence of what he had done laid out on the kitchen table in front of him, he sort of figured that I wasn't going to be calmed down by 'it's just your perception, dear...' 

It took 10 years and courage I didn't know I had. The OP has 4 hours of tape in which the squatter is heard having anal sex with some desperado. Can you hear his lawyer saying 'so, you knew what she had been doing and you allowed her to stay?' I can.


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## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> WS contacted an attorney. I been tracking her cell phone.


Well James Bond, you did good. Have you called her crazy sister yet, got her a place to stay? I do hope that tape of yours is tucked up somewhere nice and safe.


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## Thorburn

Louise7 said:


> Well James Bond, you did good. Have you called her crazy sister yet, got her a place to stay? I do hope that tape of yours is tucked up somewhere nice and safe.


Safe. Her brother in law would like a transcript like I did in 1999. That is what took her entire family to believe me. He deceased dad who never cursed or yelled at her went ape sh*t on her. He called her at the OM's house.

I am not doing this this time. I may allow my oldest BIL to listen but no copies nothing. I may already be in legal trouble. I don't care at this point but it may bite me.


----------



## Thor

Thorburn said:


> I am not doing this this time. I may allow my oldest BIL to listen but no copies nothing. I may already be in legal trouble. I don't care at this point but it may bite me.


If someone gave you the card with the recording, you did nothing wrong (assuming possession is not illegal). If the VAR were your wife's and you found it, nothing illegal happened.

Who can prove it was your VAR and you put it in the car to record a conversation? It would seem very difficult for a prosecutor to prove to a jury.

I think the contents of the recording plus the information you have on her previous activities would likely garner some sympathy from at least one juror.

And imagine the negative publicity the prosecutor would get if a news organization were to run the story that a badly betrayed husband was being prosecuted for recording his cheating wife having sex in the family car after having been caught in previous affairs?

Just keep your mouth shut about the source of the recording and I don't think you have anything to worry about.

I also think it is potential leverage for your case. Not blackmail, but an understanding that the recording could be released to more people if she tells lies about what happened. If she fears release of the tape she may be more inclined to be reasonable.


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## Thorburn

I wish I had a friend who could over and help me with the bills and accounts. My mind is not in this though I did feel proud of getting the bank thing done, but it sucked.

One creditor called and has me on a payment plan for 6 months. That will help.

WS got a form from the welfare office. I guess that is one route she is going to take. She can freaken work.


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## turnera

Does she have to actively seek work to get the welfare?


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## Thorburn

I really want to kick her out but can't. If I lose my cool I am gone. 

Unreal.

I going to sit down and lay out the bills and accounts. At least i get something done.

I know what I can cancel but if I do it will hurt me. I need the internet here so I can't shut that off.

I just know I am going to be in a tough bind for a while.


----------



## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> Safe. Her brother in law would like a transcript like I did in 1999. That is what took her entire family to believe me. He deceased dad who never cursed or yelled at her went ape sh*t on her. He called her at the OM's house.
> 
> I am not doing this this time. I may allow my oldest BIL to listen but no copies nothing. I may already be in legal trouble. I don't care at this point but it may bite me.


Stuff what her BIL wants. You don't need to prove this to anyone but the judge. I know 'law' is different on your side and my side of the pond but I would hate that you let the squatter stay in the house and her hot shot lawyer eyeball you across the court room and say 'so, you knew what this woman had done and you let her stay? Hardly the actions of someone who hadn't accepted that this woman's straying was not part of what was acceptable within your marriage...' 

Please get the papers served and get this squatter out of your house. Every day she remains means you have less to bargain with.

You are doing a great job.


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## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Does she have to actively seek work to get the welfare?


Who knows and I guess this is a minor point anyway.


----------



## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> I really want to kick her out but can't. If I lose my cool I am gone.
> 
> Unreal.
> 
> I going to sit down and lay out the bills and accounts. At least i get something done.
> 
> I know what I can cancel but if I do it will hurt me. I need the internet here so I can't shut that off.
> 
> I just know I am going to be in a tough bind for a while.


Deep breaths Mr Bond. There is nothing to say you have to lose your cool in inviting her to stay with the crazy sister. 

Anyone you owe money to will be in touch, trust me. And if you get into debt, well that's a shame but half the debt is the squatter's. I do hope you tell her that. Remember, this is no longer a marriage but a splitting of assets and paying your share of the bills.


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## ravioli

Have you told her you don't want her in the house? How is she able to eat and use the phone? All access to food, computers, transportation and sedentary entertainment should be cut off. Tell her if she is hungry there's a soup kitchen down the street.

Did she not reference all the bills are in your name? So that means you pay all the bills right? Live in your house like you're the only one who lives there. She's now pet status.


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## Thorburn

ravioli said:


> Have you told her you don't want her in the house? How is she able to eat and use the phone? All access to food, computers, transportation and sedentary entertainment should be cut off. Tell her if she is hungry there's a soup kitchen down the street.
> 
> Did she not reference all the bills are in your name? So that means you pay all the bills right? Live in your house like you're the only one who lives there. She's now pet status.


Just talked to an attorney. Very helpful. I need money upfront and hope my family comes through. I can't kick her out nor she me. 

We just coexist until she or I makes a move and right now I am staying. The attorney told me to stay.

Should of, would of, could of **** If I filed last year I would be in a fairly good financial situation right now without having to ask for money. No second house, all my back disability pay of $18,000.00 that I got in August would had been mine, it is gone. 

I know in the end I will make it and some bills will get paid in the short run but man, now attorney fees. 

What a mess she has made. And of course this is all my fault.


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## Mike11

Can someone place a link to the 180 ? 

Thorburn you must implement it ASAP


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## phillybeffandswiss

Louise7 said:


> The OP has 4 hours of tape in which the squatter is heard having anal sex with some desperado. Can you hear his lawyer saying 'so, you knew what she had been doing and you allowed her to stay?' I can.


It is the law not the lawyer's opinion or your opinion that matters. The person has too CHOOSE to leave.


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## Thorburn

Mike11 said:


> Can someone place a link to the 180 ?
> 
> Thorburn you must implement it ASAP


Got it thanks.


----------



## Thorburn

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It is the law not the lawyer's opinion or your opinion that matters. The person has too CHOOSE to leave.


I can't go ape sh*t. My attorney told me that her attorney may try that route or hope for it. That is why I am disengaged. We have been walking by each other for the past 1/2 hour and she will not even look at me. She looks horrible. She is packing up her car with antiques to take to our business. It has not done well because she did not do much with it over the past year. We paid the rent and made a little extra each month but nothing like we use to make. Her mind was elsewhere. Again, these are things that kept us going financially and allowed us to travel. I looked back at our credit cards and think why did I allow this to happen. I would tell my WS we need to put money towards the bills and she didn't. She always had cash and it made no sense to me. We always shared our money and I would see money in her purse and think what the heck. 

I trusted her.

Though right now this is biting her more than me. She has no money. I mean it. I know what she has. If she had money she would have gone. I know that much about her. Her sister's finances are horrible, broken refrigerator, pipes leaking, etc, will not have money for the mortgage come April. Her millionaire brother (her best friend) is being very reluctant to give her anything. I think in the end he will but who knows. My oldest BIL wants the family to cut all ties with her, to force her to break. I think that will work but I told him forget about me being involved, I am done with her. He wants to do an intervention with her in March when the middle brother (a missionary in South Africa) gets home. At this point I don't care. I do pity her for what she has become. 

My oldest BIL asked me if she is getting paid for sex and I said I don't know.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Thorburn said:


> I can't go ape sh*t. My attorney told me that her attorney may try that route or hope for it. That is why I am disengaged.


That was directed at Louise7, who didn't understand that an affair doesn't mean you can LEGALLY throw someone out on the street. She had a felony trump card that is completely different than your situation. 

I've read your thread, I know your lawyer is giving you good advice.


----------



## turnera

Make sure your lawyer claims the $18,000 she blew as an asset SHE owes.


----------



## ravioli

Where is she getting money for gas?


----------



## Louise7

phillybeffandswiss said:


> That was directed at Louise7, who didn't understand that an affair doesn't mean you can LEGALLY throw someone out on the street. She had a felony trump card that is completely different than your situation.
> 
> I've read your thread, I know your lawyer is giving you good advice.


I stand corrected and will STFU.


----------



## Thorburn

ravioli said:


> Where is she getting money for gas?


She had about $200.00 from her work checks. She has been giving me money and she is not going anywhere. There is a little bit in our joint account I did not take it all out. So she has gas money. She will more then likely get money from some friends of hers. 

There are lots of things I want to do that would embarrass her but I am trying to stay above that. 

As the 180 says focus on yourself, stay positive and don't think about all the things you have to do. Try to do some things each day.

For me it is not about being nice or mean it is being detached and that is what I am focused on doing.

My mind keeps thinking that she will find a guy and be happy, that she will make out alright. May not be true at all but that is one of the thoughts that keeps plaguing my feeble mind.

The life I was to enjoy with her is gone.

That is where I am at at the moment. Regrets. 

I was content and happy with her, she was my joy.

I have faced my own sins and feel that I am not a bad guy. That I have been more an optimist in my life. I have had many moments of reflection, intersection and I just don't get it.

I don't feel bad about myself or that I brought this upon us. I feel clean about it. I feel bad about what she did and that no one held her accountable and saw her for the person she is. A cheap tramp.


----------



## Thorburn

Louise7 said:


> I stand corrected and will STFU.


This stuff is tough and brings out raw emotions. I appreciate all of you. We learn from each other and the support is beyond anything I could imagine. So don't go.


----------



## Thorburn

We have passed each other some time ago and later in the day. She does not even look at me and has such anger in her eyes. I have not said one word to her today. And all I am seeing is her heart getting harder and her face showing anger. It just amazes me where this could come from. I will never under stand this and I really don't want to at this time.

I am focusing on me and trying to keep it all together for me.


----------



## cpacan

Thorburn said:


> We have passed each other some time ago and later in the day. She does not even look at me and has such anger in her eyes. I have not said one word to her today. And all I am seeing is her heart getting harder and her face showing anger.* It just amazes me where this could come from.* I will never under stand this and I really don't want to at this time.
> 
> I am focusing on me and trying to keep it all together for me.


I have had similar experiences from time to time. I have discovered two different sources for this anger:


The no-big-deal-anger. Really, it's no big deal, so what are you whining about?
The you-made-me-do-this-anger. You made me stoop so low, damn you.


----------



## happyman64

Thorburn said:


> I can't go ape sh*t. My attorney told me that her attorney may try that route or hope for it. That is why I am disengaged. We have been walking by each other for the past 1/2 hour and she will not even look at me. She looks horrible. She is packing up her car with antiques to take to our business. It has not done well because she did not do much with it over the past year. We paid the rent and made a little extra each month but nothing like we use to make. Her mind was elsewhere. Again, these are things that kept us going financially and allowed us to travel. I looked back at our credit cards and think why did I allow this to happen. I would tell my WS we need to put money towards the bills and she didn't. She always had cash and it made no sense to me. We always shared our money and I would see money in her purse and think what the heck.
> 
> I trusted her.
> 
> Though right now this is biting her more than me. She has no money. I mean it. I know what she has. If she had money she would have gone. I know that much about her. Her sister's finances are horrible, broken refrigerator, pipes leaking, etc, will not have money for the mortgage come April. Her millionaire brother (her best friend) is being very reluctant to give her anything. I think in the end he will but who knows. My oldest BIL wants the family to cut all ties with her, to force her to break. I think that will work but I told him forget about me being involved, I am done with her. He wants to do an intervention with her in March when the middle brother (a missionary in South Africa) gets home. At this point I don't care. I do pity her for what she has become.
> 
> *My oldest BIL asked me if she is getting paid for sex and I said I don't know.*


I was thinking the same thing. Your BIL might not be that far off. Crazier things have happened on TAM Thorburn.

And your wife is mad because she was stupid and got caught.

Harden your heart towards her my friend.


----------



## Anabel

You've already spoken with a lawyer, but in case you or anyone else needs this-- here's an excellent reference for state by state laws concerning recording private conversations, intercepting communications, and so on:

State-by-state guide | Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press


*Edit to add: And here's state by state law regarding computer hacking (depending on what state you're looking into, this site can be a little more difficult to navigate but it has all the info):
http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/telecom/computer-hacking-and-unauthorized-access-laws.aspx


----------



## 3putt

Anabel said:


> You've already spoken with a lawyer, but in case you or anyone else needs this-- here's an excellent reference for state by state laws concerning recording private conversations, intercepting communications, and so on:
> 
> State-by-state guide | Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press
> 
> 
> *Edit to add: And here's state by state law regarding computer hacking (depending on what state you're looking into, this site can be a little more difficult to navigate but it has all the info):
> Computer Hacking and Unauthorized Access Laws


And here we freaking go again.










None of these laws have a damned thing to do with the methods that are employed around here. Once more, it is NOT illegal in this country, or in any state within it's confines, to have surveillance, tracking, or recording devices in or on your marital property! 

:banghead:


----------



## Anabel

3putt said:


> And here we freaking go again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of these laws have a damned thing to do with the methods that are employed around here. Once more, it is NOT illegal in this country, or in any state within it's confines, to have surveillance, tracking, or recording devices in or on your marital property!
> 
> :banghead:


No, it doesn't necessarily have to do with this situation--but contrary to the beliefs of many people around here, what is important in most laws is "reasonable expectation of privacy." That can be violated for sure by some of the proposals I've read of what should be done to catch a cheater, not necessarily in this thread. I'm just offering the resources to anyone curious since these topics have been brought up in general. And the OP mentioned he didn't know whether he'd done anything that would come back to bite him. Don't see how access to knowledge either way can hurt anyone here.


----------



## 3putt

Anabel said:


> No, it doesn't necessarily have to do with this situation--but contrary to the beliefs of many people around here, what is important in most laws is "reasonable expectation of privacy." That can be violated for sure by some of the proposals I've read of what should be done to catch a cheater, not necessarily in this thread. I'm just offering the resources to anyone curious since these topics have been brought up in general. And the OP mentioned he didn't know whether he'd done anything that would come back to bite him. Don't see how access to knowledge either way can hurt anyone here.


I really am getting tired of constantly beating my head against the wall with this conversation. NO ONE on this site would ever recommend, or even suggest, doing anything illegal to gather intel to out their cheating spouses. It irritates the living hell out of me that laws that have nothing to do with what we are suggesting as a course of action are liberally thrown out to discourage them from taking action that is rightfully theirs to take.

No...."irritates me" isn't strong enough. It fvcking pisses me off!

If folks want to post links to laws that are actually helpful, then by all means, post away. Posting this same irrelevant crap incessantly isn't helping someone in distress; it is seriously harmful and undermines the credibility of people who actually know what the hell they are talking about. These souls don't need this doubt in their minds right now, because there is nothing to doubt. These folks need help, and this sh!t ain't helping.

Enough.


----------



## Thorburn

1. I made it through today without saying a word to her. 
2. Got support here on TAM
3. Changed the bank account
4. Contacted an attorney
5. And have ended the day fairly positive.

Tomorrow:
1. Go to work. All counselors and great folks
2. Start working on getting a list of all accounts, bank, retirement, credit cards, etc. To list assets and debts.
3. Try to find a cheaper attorney.
4. Get a handle on the bills

I am going to make it. 

And continue reading the 180 and put it into practice.


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> And all I am seeing is her heart getting harder and her face showing anger. It just amazes me where this could come from.


What you're witnessing is a person in an indefensible position. Your wife knows she's wrong, she has no defense, she's stuck in her own body and mind, and has to figure out how to live with herself. While she goes through this process she'll present herself to the world as self righteous and indignant. It's her taking a last stand in the hopes that she can somehow win the day, one day at a time.

You know the truth, she knows the truth, now it's a test of will and determination. We don't know what it is she's determined to do, nor should we care at this point, it's what *you're* determined to do that matters.

You're capable of charging the hill and winning the battle, but the battle isn't your wife, *it's your life*, so keep the focus, stay on your game, you have a lot of life ahead of you.

T


----------



## Anabel

3putt said:


> I really am getting tired of constantly beating my head against the wall with this conversation. NO ONE on this site would ever recommend, or even suggest, doing anything illegal to gather intel to out their cheating spouses. It irritates the living hell out of me that laws that have nothing to do with what we are suggesting as a course of action are liberally thrown out to discourage them from taking action that is rightfully theirs to take.
> 
> No...."irritates me" isn't strong enough. It fvcking pisses me off!
> 
> If folks want to post links to laws that are actually helpful, then by all means, post away. Posting this same irrelevant crap incessantly isn't helping someone in distress; it is seriously harmful and undermines the credibility of people who actually know what the hell they are talking about. These souls don't need this doubt in their minds right now, because there is nothing to doubt. These folks need help, and this sh!t ain't helping.
> 
> Enough.


So you're saying everyone who posts here is completely knowledgeable of the law in every state and country? 

If being better informed makes someone doubt a course of action--then maybe that is for the best. If it doesn't apply, then it doesn't apply. 

Anyone can understand a betrayed spouse wanting answers. I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty. If the laws are irrelevant to a particular situation, then they shouldn't create any doubt.

Yes, enough, I don't want to argue.


----------



## Shaggy

Thorburn,

She's angry because she was happy with the old arrangement and you have gone and broke the agreement.

She could have sex with anyone so long as she can home and gave you duty sex.

It worked for her, and now you've ruined her life.


----------



## 3putt

Anabel said:


> So you're saying everyone who posts here is completely knowledgeable of the law in every state and country?


Well, I would hope that people that aren't completely confident in the advice they are dispensing wouldn't be doing so in the first place. I AM confident in what I say because I have researched it and have talked to a couple of lawyers as well that _*weren't divorce attys*_. They had NO problems with the methods we employ.



Anabel said:


> If being better informed makes someone doubt a course of action--then maybe that is for the best. If it doesn't apply, then it doesn't apply.


Better informed of laws that don't apply to them one bit? Where's the value in that? NO, it's creates unnecessary doubt that has no place on these boards. These folks need to believe in what we tell them, that what we say will do them no harm. If Thorburn decides to one day tap his/her phone, then I will be on board with your argument. Until then....meh. 



Anabel said:


> Anyone can understand a betrayed spouse wanting answers. I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty. If the laws are irrelevant to a particular situation, then they shouldn't create any doubt.


You just made my point for me. If it's not relevant, then don't post it. These people have enough to filter through without having irrelevant info tossed into the emotional tornado they are already going through.

It's simply not helpful.

I'm quite sure you have good intentions, but I'm also pretty sure you can do better than this.


----------



## Affaircare

Okay this needs to stay focused on Thorburn and his situation, and we do not know what state of the USA he is in. However as an example, here is Divorce Attorney's site from New Jersey: "Think Twice Before Spying on Your Spouse in New Jersey" 

The laws that I posted and that Anabel posted are relevant because many states have laws that are so hopelessly behind the speed of the internet and apps that they still fall back on and use the "wiretap" laws that pertain to old land-line telephones for prosecution. 

Please note that neither Anabel nor I said "Do not do this" or "Do that" but rather we said "Here are the relevant laws for each state. Read the laws for your state and make up your own mind based on what you read. Take that info to your own attorney and be well-informed." Thus, if you know of some other laws, such as the "You are on the loan with your spouse so you can record anything you like" law...then please post it with a link. If you know of some legal precedence for recording whatever you want, cool. Post it with a link. 

No one ever said our legal system is fair or makes sense. It doesn't!! So no matter what your opinion is or what you think "makes common sense" or should be right...the fact of the matter is that these laws are on the books of every single state, and when the state consider whether or not to prosecute, they look at these old, antiquated laws. If you know of other laws, post them! Look for yourself!

That's why, as a general rule, I tell people that if you do record your spouse and their lover, that recording is primarily to prove TO YOU that it is real and it is going on. That's not usually a recording you would use in a court of law as legal evidence in order to get sole custody or get more marital assets. Because even though it is not fair or "right" --the fact of the matter is that no court in the USA is going to tell your cheating spouse they were "wrong" to have an affair and then punish in the divorce decree! Nope. Not gonna happen. What a court WILL do is say "...since you were married X number of years, she gets half of the assets and debt, he gets half of the assets and debt, and we don't care about the morality of either one of you." In addition what a court WILL do is say "Well we don't have state laws about smart phone GPS apps and voice-activated recorders. What do we have along that line? Oh yeah the laws about the definition of 'reasonable expectation of privacy' and listening in on phone calls."

But hey, don't listen to me or any other anonymous person on the world wide web! LOOK at your own state laws for yourself. Read them. Talk to any attorney. They'll tell you what really happens in the legal system.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Here are multiple court cases that are interesting:
http://www.rbs2.com/dprivacy.pdf

They start at the beginning and you witness the change from wiretapping, to electronic devices, to video and then computer issues. 


Now, let's we get back to helping Thorburn.


----------



## Granny7

phillybeffandswiss,
I didn't take time to read the multiple court cases that you referenced to. I know that some states allow wiretapping, electronic devices etc. to be used as evidence in court, others don't. So, basically a person should check their state IF THEY PLAN ON USING THESE TAPES FOR EVIDENCE IN COURT AGAINST THEIR SPOUSE! If they are only doing this to prove to themselves and be able to confront their cheating spouse I don't see the harm, after all, the cheating spouse has broken the marriage vows already. This information is invaluable to the spouse that has been cheated on and at the least, should hold on to it for their own protection. 

After my CH affair, I saw a therapist for 5 yrs., he went sometimes after I had my own sessions, then we went to our maybe twice a month. Of course, he really wasn't participating so it didn't help him at all. I was in such shock when I first saw here, that it was hard for me to even drive myself. I couldn't focus on what she was telling me and would leave her office not remember but about 10% of what she had talked about. I told her about this and asked if she minded me recording our sessions. No one else has ever done this and she had been in practice about 20 yrs. She did allow it and It was very helpful to me, as I could go back and listen to her suggestions, listen to what my H had to say, etc. She did tell me that these could never be used in court as it wouldn't hold up. I live in Fl. and even if he had given me permission, which he knew he was being taped, I don't know for sure if they could be used. Of course that wasn't my intent, I just needed to remember what we talked about and also the suggestions she gave me and both of us on how to work on our marriage. 

Since our's is falling apart now I so wish I hadn't taped over all those tapes of 5 yrs. of therapy as they would be invaluable now to help me with a time line, but unfortunately I did tape over most of them to practice my recording sessions with my piano player when I was singing. 

So, for Thorburn I'm only bringing this up to let him know that their is a reason to record certain things and some of it might help him to understand better what is going on in her mind. Only his lawyer can tell him if it's illegal in his state and if they can be used in court. 

I wish I had the advice of the wonderful people on this site aster finding out about my H's affair as I would have handled it so much better and wiser. 

I don't believe that hacking into a computer in your own home that is community property, since he pays for it, is illegal. That would be the same as if he opened her mail that was addressed to her, I haven't heard if that's illegal, does anyone know that answer? 

In the end, none of this will matter. What's important is for Thorburn get the evidence he needs so that he can move on and live in peace and I think that's what all of us want for him.

Thorburn, we are all on your side and only wish the best for you.

Granny7


----------



## strugglinghusband




----------



## Thorburn

Had a fairly positive day mentally yesterday and sleep fairly well. This morning has been rough. My boss told me to focus on work and don't bring any of this here. He is right. I want to vent, I get along with my co workers and they are all counselors but I was told no. I get it and if I was in charge I would set those boundaries as well.

I asked family and friends for money but have yet to get a positive responce. Talked to an old Army buddy this morning and he did not say no but that he would consider it. For me this would ease alot of my stress. My mortgage payment on the new house came back with insufficient funds ($940.00). I need two tires and my truck need inspected. I typically buy used tires from an online source and have gotten some great deals. I know how to research tires and know which ones are good and always got a great deal. But even with used tires I can't afford them and I hope I don't get pulled over for the truck being out of inspection. I have no other way to work. Additionally the lawyer wants $3,000.00 retainer so I am going to see if I can go to one of the "free ones", but my income level might be too high. I need about $500.00 to get my liscense so I can get a two step promotion. 

I get free medical through the VA, though I have blue cross blue shield and can to any doctor, I will continue to use the VA.

I am trying to sort out my bills today and all my accounts to see what I have to put together for the D. 

I know it will get worse financially when the D comes. 

So short term it will be horrible.

My Iraqi Veteran cap with my combat action badge is gone. Either my wife or son threw it out. I wear that cap to work as I work with Veterans. 

I have four clients today one later in the day and I need to focus on helping them. 

My boss said I can take time off as needed. He is a good guy but I know he has dealt with this before with his employees and I know he is right about keeping it away from the work place.

I wish I had a friend who could sit with me and help me sort out my bills and accounts. If I was at my old home or still worked at the other VA hospital I would be able to get one of those friends to help me but they are now too far away.

My WS was up this morning watching sport news. The only words I had for her was to ask her to move the car so I could go to work and she said I already moved it. 

I am trying hard here and I am being hit hard this morning. I have been praying, meditating on scriptures, and I keep reading the 180. I have talked to the Veteran's crisis line and that is always available to me 24/7. I am not suicidal or homicidal but it is nice to be able to talk to someone at any time of the day to vent. 

I know she will take me to the cleaners. I just wish I could know what the outcome of our divorce will be so I could at least know what I am going to have to live on and what bills I will be responsible for but I keep trying to push that out of my mind. The outcome is mere speculation and it can any number of ways. and I am told not to focus on that. So I just vented it and will move on and try to get it out of my head.

I sucks.


----------



## Shaggy

If you can't afford the lawyer right now then wait until you can.

You've made you're decision, so do it on your time table.

Stop worrying about is to pay the lawyer today.

Can you sell one of the houses?


----------



## Granny7

Thorburn said:


> Had a fairly positive day mentally yesterday and sleep fairly well. This morning has been rough. My boss told me to focus on work and don't bring any of this here. He is right. I want to vent, I get along with my co workers and they are all counselors but I was told no. I get it and if I was in charge I would set those boundaries as well.
> 
> I asked family and friends for money but have yet to get a positive responce. Talked to an old Army buddy this morning and he did not say no but that he would consider it. For me this would ease alot of my stress. My mortgage payment on the new house came back with insufficient funds ($940.00). I need two tires and my truck need inspected. I typically buy used tires from an online source and have gotten some great deals. I know how to research tires and know which ones are good and always got a great deal. But even with used tires I can't afford them and I hope I don't get pulled over for the truck being out of inspection. I have no other way to work. Additionally the lawyer wants $3,000.00 retainer so I am going to see if I can go to one of the "free ones", but my income level might be too high. I need about $500.00 to get my liscense so I can get a two step promotion.
> 
> I get free medical through the VA, though I have blue cross blue shield and can to any doctor, I will continue to use the VA.
> 
> I am trying to sort out my bills today and all my accounts to see what I have to put together for the D.
> 
> I know it will get worse financially when the D comes.
> 
> So short term it will be horrible.
> 
> My Iraqi Veteran cap with my combat action badge is gone. Either my wife or son threw it out. I wear that cap to work as I work with Veterans.
> 
> I have four clients today one later in the day and I need to focus on helping them.
> 
> My boss said I can take time off as needed. He is a good guy but I know he has dealt with this before with his employees and I know he is right about keeping it away from the work place.
> 
> I wish I had a friend who could sit with me and help me sort out my bills and accounts. If I was at my old home or still worked at the other VA hospital I would be able to get one of those friends to help me but they are now too far away.
> 
> My WS was up this morning watching sport news. The only words I had for her was to ask her to move the car so I could go to work and she said I already moved it.
> 
> I am trying hard here and I am being hit hard this morning. I have been praying, meditating on scriptures, and I keep reading the 180. I have talked to the Veteran's crisis line and that is always available to me 24/7. I am not suicidal or homicidal but it is nice to be able to talk to someone at any time of the day to vent.
> 
> I know she will take me to the cleaners. I just wish I could know what the outcome of our divorce will be so I could at least know what I am going to have to live on and what bills I will be responsible for but I keep trying to push that out of my mind. The outcome is mere speculation and it can any number of ways. and I am told not to focus on that. So I just vented it and will move on and try to get it out of my head.
> 
> I sucks.


Thorburn,
Are you entitled to legal advice under the VA? I might have misunderstood, but are you a veteran or do you have any benefits from being in the service? I know my H does, as he can use his card to get 10% off at Lowe's, Home Depot, etc. Some place offer that and it all add's up. I just wanted to mention that to see if they offer free legal advice. I hope the day gets better for you. Try not to worry so much about the attorney's, their has to be a way to get this done. Can you borrow money against the house or like someone mentioned, it sounds like you have more than one? Just trying to throw out suggestions to help.

Hang in there, continue the 180 and also what you've been doing.

I'll continue to check on you,

Granny7


----------



## turnera

What can YOU sell? Can you work a side job?


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Thorburn said:


> I know she will take me to the cleaners. I just wish I could know what the outcome of our divorce will be so I could at least know what I am going to have to live on and what bills I will be responsible for but I keep trying to push that out of my mind.


Thorburn, what usually works for me is to envision the absolute worst case scenario and make plans accordingly. More than likely the worst case scenario won't happen but mentally you'll be prepared for it. Anything less will be gravy.


----------



## Thorburn

Granny7 said:


> Thorburn,
> Are you entitled to legal advice under the VA? I might have misunderstood, but are you a veteran or do you have any benefits from being in the service? I know my H does, as he can use his card to get 10% off at Lowe's, Home Depot, etc. Some place offer that and it all add's up. I just wanted to mention that to see if they offer free legal advice. I hope the day gets better for you. Try not to worry so much about the attorney's, their has to be a way to get this done. Can you borrow money against the house or like someone mentioned, it sounds like you have more than one? Just trying to throw out suggestions to help.
> 
> Hang in there, continue the 180 and also what you've been doing.
> 
> I'll continue to check on you,
> 
> Granny7


Will not be able to borrow on any of the houses I only have some equity in the first house but with the credit cards etc that is not an option. Can't believe I let my dept get out of control. My goal this year wwas to pay off the one mortgage, and all the credit cards. My WS seemed to be on board with this plan and that is why we started a refinsihing business. We were actually started to make some real money. Two weeks ago we made $200.00 profit. 

Just unreal.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> What can YOU sell? Can you work a side job?


How just about everything in the house for sale. Everyone who has inquired about stuff did not want the items, the tables were two big, too small. The one tiffany lamp that a lady was going to buy yesterday told me she did not have a ride.

Yes I can get a evening job, I have been looking for the past week. Nothing yet.

I can sell the houses but that of course takes time. I already gave a heads up to the realtor about our current house. 

I am not hopeless and will not give up but man when this stuff hits you in the face. 

I am really just taking it one minute at a time. And will not lose my focus of taking care of myself.


----------



## LookingForTheSun

Thorburn - so sorry to just read all of this...been gone for a few days . I'm praying for you and know that you are mentally strong and will come out of this all on top. Hugs.


----------



## karole

Thornburn: Is there anyway you can get a loan against your retirement until you sell the homes or maybe an early withdrawal? Perhaps a 90 day note with a bank if your family doesn't come through? I am so sorry you are in this situation, no one deserves to be treated the way your wife has treated you. You are in my thoughts and prayers.


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn, you're in a tough spot. I think it's time to 'reset' your life. Do what all smart businessmen do when it all goes sour, bankrupt, and get a clean start, that's what it's for, situations exactly like yours.

You said you had friends at your other job? Is there any way you can transfer back to that job?

You need to look at it like this; you did nothing wrong, she blew up the family and as a result your psychological and financial disposition has shifted. You need to save yourself now, and if that means relocating and getting yourself a small rental for the time being then that's what you need to do. You're no longer part of a team, you're now a one man fighting force and you need to stay alive; you can do it. Focus.

T


----------



## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> Thorburn, you're in a tough spot. I think it's time to 'reset' your life. Do what all smart businessmen do when it all goes sour, bankrupt, and get a clean start, that's what it's for, situations exactly like yours.
> 
> You said you had friends at your other job? Is there any way you can transfer back to that job?
> 
> You need to look at it like this; you did nothing wrong, she blew up the family and as a result your psychological and financial disposition has shifted. You need to save yourself now, and if that means relocating and getting yourself a small rental for the time being then that's what you need to do. You're no longer part of a team, you're now a one man fighting force and you need to stay alive; you can do it. Focus.
> 
> T


I thought about bankruptcy and perhaps that is the way to go. Not sure how it works.

As far as the job I think staying here is the best for me. I love it, it is what I always wanted to do and I have upward potential. 

That is why I laid my finances out to TAM I need to know options.

I am open to any other suggestions and thoughts.

Thanks


----------



## Shaggy

Btw, right now debt is shared debt so you do not want to pay any of it down.

You want cash flow. Sell what you need to, don't worry about getting the best deal, just don't loose your shirt.

Btw, are you contribution to a 401k at work? If so stop that now. You'll have to share it down the road anyhow so free up what you can.

Also consider adjusting your withholding a bit too so as to free up cash.


----------



## Thor

3putt my lawyer disagrees with you wrt Utah law. Conversations require at least 1 person to consent. Computers could be a problem if confidential communications are "hacked" . If the WS is a lawyer, medical field, financial person, or other type where info/communications are legally protected for privacy it can be a state or federal offense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

Man, I did not think I would make it today. I had four clients with serious issues and one was was thinking of suicide. Somehow I am able to keep it together. i have one later client and then I am done for the day. I believe my wife went to our antique business today, not sure and don't care.

Today is rough. First day back to work since last Wednesday. Tonight I will work on the accounts and lay out all the bills. 

Talked to my older sister. I lost my dad last year around this time and my mother is recovering from pnuemonia. Though she knows what I am going through I have not been calling her. I can take all the stuff I want to my mom's house. And my sister said if things really hit the crapper for me I always have a place there. She said the family discussed it and they all agree that would work out fine. So, if I quit my job, or whatever I will have a place to go. If I have days like this everyday, I will not be able to manage. I am just hoping that I can regain the mental set I had yesterday.


----------



## SomedayDig

Thorburn, I can't imagine doing what you do as a profession. I mean, I'm only a chaplain who used to have a wedding ministry (I stay mostly within the motorcycle community now). Last year after Dday, our motorcycle club went to Rolling Thunder in DC like we always do. Lots of guys from around the country meet there. One of my club brothers caught up with me the first night and asked if he could confess. It was infidelity. It was difficult to discuss with him but I was able to keep it together and he actually confessed to his wife that weekend and afterwards we all talked.

You have a tough job, my man. I feel for ya.


----------



## Aunt Ava

You have survived this once, you can do it again. 

Sometimes you get by just taking it 5 minutes at a time. It's good to know you have family supporting you. 

I hope you don't have to quit you job, especially knowing there's a promotion on the horizon.

Hang in there, we are all pulling for you. Sending you positive thoughts and lots of encouragement.


----------



## Thorburn

Thanks all. Just talked to my son. He said he talked to his mother on his birthday (this past Sunday) and she said she made mistakes and need to be forgiven. He just listened. He told me if she tries to speak to him he will ask her to speak to the hand. He said she did nothing last year. One week of repentance and then back to not wanting to talk about things getting irritated at me (she would call him and say, Dad's mad, etc). He said he tried to tell her that dad needs more and this was all false. Fake counseling, fake repentance, fake everything. He said he does not know what it will take to reach her but he can't. He ignored her message to him today.

He said he will send me a few hundred and I said to do so Western Union. 

Good kid. He gets it all from the very beginning. 

He said mom better not take you to the cleaners.


----------



## bandit.45

Thor said:


> 3putt my lawyer disagrees with you wrt Utah law. Conversations require at least 1 person to consent. Computers could be a problem if confidential communications are "hacked" . If the WS is a lawyer, medical field, financial person, or other type where info/communications are legally protected for privacy it can be a state or federal offense.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The VAR was a piece of surveillance equipment, just like a security camera. You don't have to have the permission of the persons being videotaped in order to use the film in court. They use security camera footage in criminal cases all the time. 

But that's not what is happening here. Thorburn can't use this recording in the divorce because he lives in a no fault state and there are no child custody issues. He has not tried to blackmail his wife using the recording. He has not filed any criminal reports against his wife or the OM in which the recordings could be used as evidence for prosecution. 

The recording was for exposure to family only and so that Thorburn could protect his honor and rep. Nothing more. He cannot be sued or charged with a criminal offense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

bandit.45 said:


> The VAR was a piece of surveillance equipment, just like a security camera. You don't have to have the permission of the persons being videotaped in order to use the film in court. They use security camera footage in criminal cases all the time.
> 
> But that's not what is happening here. Thorburn can't use this recording in the divorce because he lives in a no fault state and there are no child custody issues. He has not tried to blackmail his wife using the recording. He has not filed any criminal reports against his wife or the OM in which the recordings could be used as evidence for prosecution.
> 
> The recording was for exposure to family only and so that Thorburn could protect his honor and rep. Nothing more. He cannot be sued or charged with a criminal offense.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Most of what I have seen, been told, and read surrounds admissibility in court. There are laws on the books, but they are so ambiguous it's hard to get a grasp on what is really what. Other than the Michigan case, I've never seen it prosecuted...and that case was dismissed in a state that apparently has some serious laws about this. 

I'm tired of this argument. Until I actually see someone get into any measure of trouble for what we recommend here, I'm going to continue to recommend it.

I'll just never jump into this argument again. Too circular and unproductive for me.


----------



## Thorburn

Well I am done for today, finished up with my last client. All notes done except the last one. Right now I am feeling better. Most of the day though I felt like I was hit by a freight train, really wanted to just quit.

Don't know if I will find an empty house. Maybe she brought a moving van and packed up.

At least my son is saying he will not allow my mother to clean me out and wants me to keep everything going, by keeping up with the bills. 

She is in self preservation mode and there is no telling what she will do.

I will be on a little later unless the house is cleaned out.


----------



## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> Thanks all. Just talked to my son. He said he talked to his mother on his birthday (this past Sunday) and she said she made mistakes and need to be forgiven. He just listened. He told me if she tries to speak to him he will ask her to speak to the hand. He said she did nothing last year. One week of repentance and then back to not wanting to talk about things getting irritated at me (she would call him and say, Dad's mad, etc). He said he tried to tell her that dad needs more and this was all false. Fake counseling, fake repentance, fake everything. He said he does not know what it will take to reach her but he can't. He ignored her message to him today.
> 
> He said he will send me a few hundred and I said to do so Western Union.
> 
> Good kid. He gets it all from the very beginning.
> 
> He said mom better not take you to the cleaners.


I feel for your son. Our grown son came to me last night and said "Mom, Dad is dead to me". I can't blame him. When my husband said he wanted to divorce me, he also cut our son out of his life. He did not even bother to send our son a Merry Christmas this past year. He did remember his birthday, but then said "Why haven't you been e-mailing me?" I mean really....the audacity. You tell your son he can't come to the house, you unplug the house phone, you don't respond to e-mails, and then you wonder why your son doesn't e-mail you?


----------



## Thorburn

The fireworks have begun.

I came home and was cooking dinner. The WS came in with pen and paper. 
She: I need to ask you some questions.
She: I need the name of your attorney and if you filed papers.
Me: I don't want to talk right now.
She: I can find out.
Me: Then find out if you know how.
She: Tell me the name of your attorney
Me: I am not talking about it.
She: Can you at least tell me yes or no if you filed?
Me: I am eating dinner.

Her: Second thing. Do you know where the cable adaptors are that we bought?
Me: I don't know.

She: I need the tempurpedic bed. My back is hurting and the type of work I am doing I am on my feet most of the day and I need that bed. (You bet I wanted to say something)
Me: No
She: I want it cut down the middle and I want my half.
Me: No
She: I want it tonight, my back is bothering me.
Me: No. I said, I paid $2,000.00 for that king size bed and we are not cutting it in half.

She stormed upstairs.


----------



## Shaggy

May I suggest you start carrying a var.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> May I suggest you start carrying a var.


Yea dumb me. I have one in my bag and forgot to get it.

Talked to her older brother (did not tell him whether I have an attorney or filed) and he says she has no plan and is fishing for information.

I told him I am not engaging her. 

He asked me if it matters who files first and I said it does not matter.

He stated that he does not get her. She texted him and said she will talk to him if and when he stops talking to me and she wants his support.

He said, i will talk to both of you, just call me. He told me that what does she mean by support? Meet with her and smile and don't judge her. He said, she just wants every body to be nicey nice to her, while in the meantime she is one person to the family and then in the other out doing wild and crazy things. he said it does not make sense. He said she does not want anyone to hold her accountable.


----------



## turnera

Thorburn said:


> He said, i will talk to both of you, just call me. He told me that what does she mean by support? Meet with her and smile and don't judge her. He said, she just wants every body to be nicey nice to her,


Pick me! Pick me! You're my BROTHER, you OWE me.


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> She stormed upstairs.


You're doing good. Keep your head, stay the course; you have the moral high-ground.

Regarding your job; they say the best way to learn something is by teaching it, so while you're helping others, you're more than likely helping yourself in the process.

T


----------



## warlock07

Don't engage her at all.


----------



## Shaggy

You know you are doing good if it pisses her off.m


----------



## Granny7

Thorburn said:


> The fireworks have begun.
> 
> I came home and was cooking dinner. The WS came in with pen and paper.
> She: I need to ask you some questions.
> She: I need the name of your attorney and if you filed papers.
> Me: I don't want to talk right now.
> She: I can find out.
> Me: Then find out if you know how.
> She: Tell me the name of your attorney
> Me: I am not talking about it.
> She: Can you at least tell me yes or no if you filed?
> Me: I am eating dinner.
> 
> Her: Second thing. Do you know where the cable adaptors are that we bought?
> Me: I don't know.
> 
> She: I need the tempurpedic bed. My back is hurting and the type of work I am doing I am on my feet most of the day and I need that bed. (You bet I wanted to say something)
> Me: No
> She: I want it cut down the middle and I want my half.
> Me: No
> She: I want it tonight, my back is bothering me.
> Me: No. I said, I paid $2,000.00 for that king size bed and we are not cutting it in half.
> 
> She stormed upstairs.


Thorburn,
I am so proud of you! You did it perfectly, no engagement at all. To cut up a $2000 bed, is she nuts. It would have taken all I could do not to say, "You've made you bed, now don't complain which one you sleep in". I know your exhausted, but hang in there. 

Filing bankruptsy isn't a bad idea either, if it comes down to that. It sounds like you have several options, something is bound to work out.

You never told me if you can get an attorney through your VA benefits?

Take care, prayers from me,

Granny7


----------



## Thorburn

Granny7 said:


> Thorburn,
> I am so proud of you! You did it perfectly, no engagement at all. To cut up a $2000 bed, is she nuts. It would have taken all I could do not to say, "You've made you bed, now don't complain which one you sleep in". I know your exhausted, but hang in there.
> 
> Filing bankruptsy isn't a bad idea either, if it comes down to that. It sounds like you have several options, something is bound to work out.
> 
> You never told me if you can get an attorney through your VA benefits?
> 
> Take care, prayers from me,
> 
> Granny7


No attorney through the VA that I am aware. I am still trying to find out but so far it seems like it is a no.


----------



## Sweet Tea

Thorburn, I have read through this entire thread and all I can say or do at this point is to send you the biggest cyber hug ever!

You are a cautionary tale of what could happen but more than that you are a shining example of how to handle what you are given with dignity and grace.

Stay the course. Know that you have many people rooting for you and many many prayers are being raised up for you.

Take care of yourself and it will, eventually, get better.


----------



## Thorburn

Sweet Tea said:


> Thorburn, I have read through this entire thread and all I can say or do at this point is to send you the biggest cyber hug ever!
> 
> You are a cautionary tale of what could happen but more than that you are a shining example of how to handle what you are given with dignity and grace.
> 
> Stay the course. Know that you have many people rooting for you and many many prayers are being raised up for you.
> 
> Take care of yourself and it will, eventually, get better.


Thanks. I fell much better today than I did yesterday. She was watching T.V. with the dog this morning having coffee, which is what we use to do together in the morning. I have been praying that God will reach her for her sake. No words were exchanged.

I could not bring myself to work on bills last night but I slept well and did not have evil thoughts to her. I went into a drunken rage last year and I am not going there. I have three group sessions today and one individual session so my day will be busy. Two of the groups are at two inpatient units with folks that are really out there mentally. They can be tough because the staff leaves me on my own and the patients can get violent, like last week. I was able to disfuse it and the staff watch from outside the room as I handled it. I am proud of this because typically they do not let outsiders in to do this and they invited me to do it. In fact the head Psych. Doctor asked me to participate in a site visit from an outside agency. These site visits can be tough because they look at everything. How many times they restrained patients, how it was put in the notes, what kind of restraints used, medications, etc. They were going to have me meet with the surveyors on my own without supervision. I have been through these before and I never saw a department let some new guy who is not even part of the staff meet with a survey team. Typically they have some senior staff memberstaying with each surveyor to make sure staff do no say the wrong things. I am bragging a little here but in all my years in the military and Federal service I never saw leadership say, hey, Mack, we want you to meet with the survey team and oh by the way you will be on your own. I declined beause I am busy that day and I got an email back saying they are really disappointed and wish I would change my schedule. I guess they like what they see in what I am doing in group.

Thanks all for prayers, positive thuoghts and your advise. 

I am trying to find a person who can sit with me and go over my bills and help me stay focused. Wish I was at my other home and other place of work because I could get that help. Here, I don't have that network. I am also trying to get a free or at least an attorney who can wait to be paid. I will make some calls today.


----------



## MattMatt

Your wife wants to cut a $2,000 bed in half?

That's such a weird idea, doesn't that sound like something a patient at the facility would come up with? Is she mentally ill?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## strugglinghusband

MattMatt said:


> Your wife wants to cut a $2,000 bed in half?
> 
> That's such a weird idea, doesn't that sound like something a patient at the facility would come up with? Is she mentally ill?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's just trying to get a rise out of him, dosent matter what about, he is detaching and she's going to throw anything and everything at him, to get some reaction to engage her..wont matter what its about.

Thorburn...watch yourself, reality will be setting in soon for her, no one knows (not even her) what she will do once that starts happening.


----------



## MattMatt

strugglinghusband said:


> She's just trying to get a rise out of him, dosent matter what about, he is detaching and she's going to throw anything and everything at him, to get some reaction to engage her..wont matter what its about.
> 
> Thorburn...watch yourself, reality will be setting in soon for her, no one knows (not even her) what she will do once that starts happening.


Maybe she is. Trying this on the wrong chap, though!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LookingForTheSun

Thorburn - you are doing great! Just make sure that you have your VAR with you anytime she is around. The other posters were right - she is startig to get desperate. The comment you made that she told your son that he should forgive her shows that she is starting to panic and knows that everything she ever had or cared about is about to go away due to her own undoing - yet se is still in heavy denial that no one else had a hand in it. Throw yourself into your work - sounds like you need to stay right there - they need you, and that can only mean job security and promotion. You are on your way to starting a new and rewarding life.

Please be careful around your wife. Put a lock on your bedroom door if you can. You say that she is one of the most unstable people you have ever seen - you need to protect yourself too.

Silence is golden. This is all yours now. HOOAH!


----------



## bandit.45

There's something seriously wrong with this woman. And it goes beyond just cheating. 

I see: 

1). Mysandry - she has a contermpt for her husband that seems pathological. Men are things to be used to bolster her self image. 

2). Self Delusion - even now she is fighting tooth and nail not to admit her misdeeds, and she seems to think if she continues to play that role everyone will come around to her way of thinking. 

3). Sex addict - well, this is self evident.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arbitrator

Thorburn said:


> She: I need the tempurpedic bed. *My back is hurting and the type of work I am doing, I am on my feet most of the day and I need that bed.* (You bet I wanted to say something)



My goodness! Has she just suddenly elevated her sexual preferences from doing it inside of cars to the more physically-demanding standing-up positions? 

If that's truly the case, no wonder she needs that bed. With that regimen, the poor thing's back must be absolutely killing her!


----------



## canttrustu

bandit.45 said:


> There's something seriously wrong with this woman. And it goes beyond just cheating.
> 
> I see:
> 
> 1). Mysandry - she has a contermpt for her husband that seems pathological. Men are things to be used to bolster her self image.
> 
> 2). Self Delusion - even now she is fighting tooth and nail not to admit her misdeeds, and she seems to think if she continues to play that role everyone will come around to her way of thinking.
> 
> 3). Sex addict - well, this is self evident.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



:iagree: This woman has some SERIOUS issues. OMG. The faster you can let her go Thorburn, the better you'll be.


----------



## Thorburn

Made it through the day. Finished two groups at the hospital. Came home and have not seen her.

Tomorrow is her birthday.


----------



## LetDownNTX

Oh yay!! I hope you're going all out for her....card, balloons, fancy dinner, extravagant gift!

Im evil but I would probably not even acknowledge it. Act like you forgot what day it is.


----------



## happyman64

Tell her

"Happy F'In Birthday" and say it with a smile because it will be the last one she gets from you.

And do not be sad about it because there is nothing Happy about her Thorburn.

Be strong.


----------



## Thorburn

Tonight:

She: Mack, I want my laptop
Me: silence as I walked away
She: I want it back

At least the king size tempurpedic bed is still intact.


----------



## 67flh

well i guess instead of the bed you could run the laptop thru a sawsall...lol


----------



## Thorburn

67flh said:


> well i guess instead of the bed you could run the laptop thru a sawsall...lol


Got one and it cuts through anything. I am still trying to help her find it.


----------



## turnera

love it


----------



## Granny7

Thorborn,

After reading so much about your soon to be ex-wife. I would also be concerned about what she might do when she really faces the fact that you are divorcing her. I would definitely put a lock on my bedroom door, she definitely doesn't sound stable right now. 

You are handling so much and I am so proud of you. To work in the profession that you do and then deal with all the problems at home is unbelievable. Just hang in there, your going to get through this and eventually have some peace.

I would still go on line and see if the VA will provide any legal benefits for you.

Peace & Prayers,
Granny7


----------



## Shaggy

I wonder how she would react if you acted like her to her?

"What laptop?"

"My laptop"

"You never had a laptop hon, you used to use a computer at the library sometimes, but you never had a laptop. "


----------



## Thorburn

Had a decent night's sleep. Have not had the energy to sit and go through the bills. I have a long weekend ahead as Monday is a holiday. I got one tire that is almost new, so I only need to buy one. My goal is to find someone to inspect my truck and put the tires on as cheaply as I can. 

I have several clients today but with the ice we got last night they typically cancel on days like this. I like staying busy.

Trying to put together a plan but it is hard.


----------



## LetDownNTX

Shaggy said:


> I wonder how she would react if you acted like her to her?
> 
> "What laptop?"
> 
> "My laptop"
> 
> "You never had a laptop hon, you used to use a computer at the library sometimes, but you never had a laptop. "


:lol::rofl:

It might actually be worth it to act like you have lost your damn mind. Instead of you walking around thinking WTF all the time, let her wonder what you've been smoking!


----------



## turnera

Thorburn said:


> Had a decent night's sleep. Have not had the energy to sit and go through the bills. I have a long weekend ahead as Monday is a holiday. I got one tire that is almost new, so I only need to buy one. My goal is to find someone to inspect my truck and put the tires on as cheaply as I can.
> 
> I have several clients today but with the ice we got last night they typically cancel on days like this. I like staying busy.
> 
> Trying to put together a plan but it is hard.


Great! Cancellations mean you have time to work on your bills. You know, so you can stay busy.


----------



## survivorwife

Shaggy said:


> I wonder how she would react if you acted like her to her?
> 
> "What laptop?"
> 
> "My laptop"
> 
> "You never had a laptop hon, you used to use a computer at the library sometimes, but you never had a laptop. "


:rofl: :lol: :rofl:

Reverse gas lighting. Sometimes the WS deserves to be confused. :smthumbup:


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> Have not had the energy to sit and go through the bills... I got one tire that is almost new, so I only need to buy one. My goal is to find someone to inspect my truck and put the tires on as cheaply as I can.
> 
> Trying to put together a plan but it is hard.


Priority #1 Make sure you have functioning transportation.
Priority #2 Make sure you eat, sleep and have a roof over your head.
Priority #3 Only focus on the bills that accomplishes #1 and #2.

_When the first three priorities are secured, worry about the rest, which is anything you can list in priority #4 through #9._​
Priority #10 Work with wife only after the first nine priorities are handled.​
T


----------



## Anabel

You've probably already found this but:

Pro bono legal resources for veterans by state:

Directory of Programs


----------



## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> Priority #1 Make sure you have functioning transportation.
> Priority #2 Make sure you eat, sleep and have a roof over your head.
> Priority #3 Only focus on the bills that accomplishes #1 and #2.
> 
> _When the first three priorities are secured, worry about the rest, which is anything you can list in priority #4 through #9._​
> Priority #10 Work with wife only after the first nine priorities are handled.​
> T


Thanks

Almost cracked up during a session. Made it. And was able to talk to a friend for a while. He gave me a plan but there are many if's. At least I talked it out got it out. 

Thanks for the focus. I know what you are saying and I will focus on those bills. 

I get the most timely advise here.

I just get stuck.

Thanks all. Three more sessions and I am feeling much better.


----------



## ing

You know, it's funny[almost ] that you say you get timely advice here. I go to see a counselor, probably for the same reason that your clients come to see you. They get stuck, and it takes an outsider, with some skill and empathy, to cut through the thick fog of trauma. 

The phrase "Physician heal thy self" comes to mind!

One of the things you have to bear in mind on this board is that we don't really know you. Or your life. 
We all tend to enthusiastically offer advice, and this is great, but sometimes letting a little time pass is good. Time to reflect and think what you really want out of your life. What failures do you see in yourself? What changes you can make in yourself to make yourself the person you want to be? 

For me there was a difficult period where I realized that I had been so in love and loved my ExW for so long that I failed to notice that this was not really reciprocated. 
Sure. I was her friend, but I was never her first choice as a lover. We had kids, we raised kids, we did lots of cool things together, but always the sex and the intimacy were a problem for her and because of that I spent a lot of time wondering how I could connect with her.
I should not have stayed so long. Half a lifetime is too long with someone who actively suppressed their sexuality so that she could be with me as her friend. 

This is just an example of the hard realities that hit you when you do take time to reflect on your own failings. I get angry with her for her not having the courage to leave. For not being honest with me, but mostly I got angry with myself for not seeing it.

Take some time to deal with the emotions. You simply can not rush them. The 180 helps you detach and start to build new connections. It is good. It will help. The pain, although unbearable now, will abate. The loss is real for both you, and your wife and it will take many, many months to reconcile this.

My thoughts are with you.


----------



## Shaggy

So is she confining to meet up? And have you had any luck finding the burner phone?


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> So is she confining to meet up? And have you had any luck finding the burner phone?


Went into full investigative mode last year.

I have no interest. I am detaching. 

I have one thing I want to do and right now can't spend the funds on it and I think I will find enough when I do it. I would love to get it done now but can't afford it. I have other priorities.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> Went into full investigative mode last year.
> 
> *Yes and it damn near drove you insane if I recall. *
> 
> I have no interest. I am detaching.
> 
> *This is best. No sense in trying to expand on what you and the family already know. If she needs to go out and get her fix of whatever the heck it is that she gets from these losers, then there is nothing you can do to stop her. *
> 
> I have one thing I want to do and right now can't spend the funds on it and I think I will find enough when I do it. I would love to get it done now but can't afford it. I have other priorities.
> 
> *You'll get to do this later. If you need to get away from her do something that is free or low cost, like camping, hiking, exercising outside.... get out of the house this weekend and go do something by yourself. *


Thorburn you need to concentrate on YOU. Get in shape, go get a full physical workup done at the VA, start back up some hobbies that you gave up for her, volunteer with an organization you support...get your mind on other things and off her.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Thorburn you need to concentrate on YOU. Get in shape, go get a full physical workup done at the VA, start back up some hobbies that you gave up for her, volunteer with an orginization you support...get your mind on other things and off her.


Medical check up and shrink next week. Waiting for blood work results from last week. Hope I am not pregnant. That would be a bummer.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> Medical check up and shrink next week. Waiting for blood work results from last week. Hope I am not pregnant. That would be a bummer.


Nah....

You'd look cute with a bump.


----------



## Shaggy

Thorburn said:


> Went into full investigative mode last year.
> 
> I have no interest. I am detaching.
> 
> I have one thing I want to do and right now can't spend the funds on it and I think I will find enough when I do it. I would love to get it done now but can't afford it. I have other priorities.


A man who knows what he wants and what his priorities are is a formidable man.


----------



## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> Medical check up and shrink next week. Waiting for blood work results from last week. Hope I am not pregnant. That would be a bummer.



I can see earning potential and a vacation wrapped in one. An episode of Maury perhaps?


----------



## Thorburn

If looks could kill I am a dead man. Not a word spoken yesterday or this morning. But man the look in her eyes.
Came home late after a late counseling session with a client and there were half burnt hot dogs in a George Forman grill. At least she made me supper.

It was Valentine's day and her birth day. 

I wanted to say something about the hot dogs, like Oh, you finally gave birth. Some of you will get it.

She was in the kitchen, at least made me coffee, while I made some eggs. She looks horrible.

No words.

She has our car packed up with antiques so I guess she is going there to try to sell some stuff. Maybe see her sister who is half nuts but is getting it and is torn.

My oldest BIL is trying to get everyone in the family to put pressure on her. He said she is one person to them and another person out there. I am hoping the family can get to her so the D will go better for me. Her family was her life. She was very close to her younger brother and I mean very close. And made up with her sister and they were getting very close again.

Again the family angle is just for me to get a better settlement in D. Right now she will take me to the cleaners unless I want to spend big bucks. So I am riding this wave to see what happens.


----------



## spudster

Thorburn I just got caught up with your thread and I am dreadfully sorry for all that has happened. 

If I may sir, I would start today by acting as if you and your wife are already divorced. You need to start acting the part, and that means being fully independent in every way from her. 

For instance, her cooking for you stops today. Tell her you can cook for yourself and that she does not need to bother. And this goes for everything while she is still living there: cooking, laundry, bill paying, house cleaning, etc. 

You cook for yourself, make your own bed, clean up your own messes and your own personal space and let her take care of hers. In other words, treat her like a boarder at the house. You can say hello and be polite, but the married behaviors have to go. No better time to start preparing yourself for bachelorhood as right now. 

And besides, why would you want to eat her cooking if she's going to half-azz it and burn the food anyways?

And thank you for your service to all of us sir.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

spudster said:


> Thorburn I just got caught up with your thread and I am dreadfully sorry for all that has happened.
> 
> If I may sir, I would start today by acting as if you and your wife are already divorced. You need to start acting the part, and that means being fully independent in every way from her.
> 
> For instance, her cooking for you stops today. Tell her you can cook for yourself and that she does not need to bother. And this goes for everything while she is still living there: cooking, laundry, bill paying, house cleaning, etc.
> 
> You cook for yourself, make your own bed, clean up your own messes and your own personal space and let her take care of hers. In other words, treat her like a boarder at the house. You can say hello and be polite, but the married behaviors have to go. No better time to start preparing yourself for bachelorhood as right now.
> 
> And besides, why would you want to eat her cooking if she's going to half-azz it and burn the food anyways?
> 
> And thank you for your service to all of us sir.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks.

I am cooking for myself. In some things I am a better cook anyway. Just happened last night she had hot dogs for me. We get up at the same time and she does make the coffee.

I have a load of laundry which I will do this weekend. I can iron, wash, etc.

I have another idea that I will run by my oldest BIL to get me over the finanical bump. It will be a temporary fix and also help me in the long run.

I am detaching and just staying quiet works best for me.


----------



## spudster

Thorburn my first wife died and my second wife was a serial cheater like yours. After I filed for divorce from my second wife I was a shambles. There were days when just the act of eating or brushing my teeth would trigger me and I would fall apart. 

I started working out and lost a bunch of weight. Then I spent a year getting my finances in order. I took a second job as a night watchman and used all that money to pay debts. I would do pushups and situps when I wasn't patrolling and within a few months I had a stronger core and beefier arms. That second job also kept my mind focused and off of her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

Granny7 said:


> Thorburn,
> Did you see where Anabel posted "Directory of Programs" for VA benefits in regards to helping you with the divorce? I know I have mentioned this to you several times, but check her post, it's on page 37 and I hope you can get some help there.
> 
> I agree with Spudster, don't let her do anything for you. Tell her that you are perfectly capable of taking care of yourself. That will tell her that you don't need her. If I am angry with my husband and he tries to do something for me and I'm upset that day, that's what I tell him. If he need's my help, I tell him to pretend that I'm not there and how would he do it? Don't get me wrong, I always fix dinner for both of us, we clean up the kitchen together, etc., but I'm trying to let him get the point that I can live my life without him and I can, just like you can live perfectly without any help from her.
> 
> Take care,
> Granny7


Got it.


----------



## canttrustu

Keep hanging tough Thorburn. Steer clear of her. I like the idea of a second job. Gives you cash and something to do. Limits your interaction with craziness. 

FWIW- I wouldnt eat anything she cooked. She is not stable. You have no idea what she's capable of.


----------



## Shaggy

I'd also be checking to make sure everything she sells gets booked properly. She might skim cash.


----------



## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> I wanted to say something about the hot dogs, like Oh, you finally gave birth. Some of you will get it.


I get it. :moon:


----------



## Thorburn

Some pressure just got releaved big time.

I am going to go home. My oldest son cursed at me and said they are leaving for a while and will not be home. 

Focus on priority #1 and #2. The rest can wait.


----------



## bandit.45

Is your wife coaching the oldest one to stay on her side? Or is he just down on you because you are divorcing her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Is your wife coaching the oldest one to stay on her side? Or is he just down on you because you are divorcing her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is 28 with a mind of a 12 year old. It's his mother and he easily forgives. He said, Dad, forgive her and everything will be ok. 

Having lived with him since birth I do not take it personally.


----------



## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> He is 28 with a mind of a 12 year old. It's his mother and he easily forgives. He said, Dad, forgive her and everything will be ok.
> 
> Having lived with him since birth I do not take it personally.


Bless his heart.


----------



## MattMatt

SaltInWound said:


> Bless his heart.


But eventually, she will destroy him.


----------



## SaltInWound

MattMatt said:


> But eventually, she will destroy him.


Sadly, that is a possibility. I know our grown son is not quite emotionally aged equally to his chronological age. My husband really did a manipulative number on him through the years as a way to get at me and the worst part is I did not realize it was happening. It took my husband shunning him (starting the day he said he wanted a divorce from me) before our son woke up and saw that I was not the problem. We have not had a fight since that day, and we used to have nasty arguments every day.


----------



## turnera

My mom's best friend had a son like that. She ended up becoming afraid of him because of his physical strength and erratic behavior. The dad had long since abandoned them (not a dis at you). She ended up having to have him entered into a facility.


----------



## Granny7

Thorburn said:


> He is 28 with a mind of a 12 year old. It's his mother and he easily forgives. He said, Dad, forgive her and everything will be ok.
> 
> Having lived with him since birth I do not take it personally.


Thorburn,
Just know I understand. I have a brother who is about 56 and he is in an institution and has the mentality of a 5 year old. I can't imagine how he would act under the same circumstances. I pray things turn around for you. What your wife is doing is wrong and God is watching her and what goes around comes around.

Blessings,
Granny7


----------



## happyman64

Thorburn said:


> If looks could kill I am a dead man. Not a word spoken yesterday or this morning. But man the look in her eyes.
> Came home late after a late counseling session with a client and there were half burnt hot dogs in a George Forman grill. At least she made me supper.
> 
> It was Valentine's day and her birth day.
> 
> I wanted to say something about the hot dogs, like Oh, you finally gave birth. Some of you will get it.
> 
> She was in the kitchen, at least made me coffee, while I made some eggs. She looks horrible.
> 
> No words.
> 
> She has our car packed up with antiques so I guess she is going there to try to sell some stuff. Maybe see her sister who is half nuts but is getting it and is torn.
> 
> My oldest BIL is trying to get everyone in the family to put pressure on her. He said she is one person to them and another person out there. I am hoping the family can get to her so the D will go better for me. Her family was her life. She was very close to her younger brother and I mean very close. And made up with her sister and they were getting very close again.
> 
> Again the family angle is just for me to get a better settlement in D. Right now she will take me to the cleaners unless I want to spend big bucks. So I am riding this wave to see what happens.


It could have been worse Thorburn; one of those burnt weenies could have been yours.......


----------



## Thorburn

She is not here. Like my son told me they went to her younger brothers. Found more evidence. Gross. Not going to spend the money to find out what I already know for testing.


----------



## spudster

You need to stop looking Thorburn. For your own sake just stay out of her stuff. All its going to do is cause you more pain. I know. When I caught my ex and was gathering all of her clothes and bagging them up to throw out on the driveway I found items that literally made me run to the bathroom and vomit.

Don't do it to yourself. Stay away from her and stay out of her things. She'll be moving out soon. You have enough on her to prove she was a serial cheat. No more need for any more evidence. Get in your car and go for a drive, go see a movie, get out of the house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

spudster said:


> You need to stop looking Thorburn. For your own sake just stay out of her stuff. All its going to do is cause you more pain. I know. When I caught my ex and was gathering all of her clothes and bagging them up to throw out on the driveway I found items that literally made me run to the bathroom and vomit.
> 
> Don't do it to yourself. Stay away from her and stay out of her things. She'll be moving out soon. You have enough on her to prove she was a serial cheat. No more need for any more evidence. Get in your car and go for a drive, go see a movie, get out of the house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are right I put them back. Actually in a good mood tonight.


----------



## Granny7

happyman64 said:


> It could have been worse Thorburn; one of those burnt weenies could have been yours.......


Thorburn

That's funny, but not! I can't stand to see that picture. Not sure if that's better than Bobbit or not?

Granny7


----------



## Thorburn

Don't know what happened to my post:

My oldest son just called me (he is 28 years old with special needs) He wanted money. I said not now. He got mad and I calmed him down. He said "Mom is a nasty slu^, she treated me like a piece of ****T, and that I need to call my attorney and stop the D. I told him to calm down and show love and respect to his mother. He said so other nasty things. I said you mom needs God and love. I said you need to forgive her and show her love. I said I will always take care of you and that I love you. I said you have a good heart and God will help you through this and that I love you and am praying for you. He said I gave up on God. I said God does not give up on us and that I am praying for him and his mother that she turns to God. We talked a while more.

I had to take a call. and my son said he will call me back.

He did not realize that he did and he would not answer and this is what I heard.

My WS: (yelling at him) Why are you putting me down in front of Dad?
My son: I can say whatever I want and that is what you are.
My WS: Thanks, I need you to say that right now. I am going to be on my own.
My son: Dad says I have a good heart and I need to show you love and need to show you love and forgive you and that you are the one pushing for the D.
My WS: I know your dad, he will use this against me.

She stormed off and I listened for about 4 minutes till the call dropped. I could not make out what was said.

She is one angry woman.


----------



## SaltInWound

Angry because things are not going her way.


----------



## LookingForTheSun

Wow - so sorry. And your son even told her that you were trying to keep him neutral in all of this, to love his mom and forgive her, yet she is still nasty about it all.....

Hang in there. You will be through the toughest part soon.


----------



## Thorburn

SaltInWound said:


> Angry because things are not going her way.


Yes and my son also said, "Mom is crazy, she is cracking up".

It is amazing. She gets caught. Gets angry and it is of course my fault that she is tearing up the family, my fault that I am talking to her brother, who has been a friend for over 30 years, my fault she cheated, my fault, my fault, yada yada do.


----------



## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> Yes and my son also said, "Mom is crazy, she is cracking up".
> 
> It is amazing. She gets caught. Gets angry and it is of course my fault that she is tearing up the family, my fault that I am talking to her brother, who has been a friend for over 30 years, my fault she cheated, my fault, my fault, yada yada do.


She has to blame someone and it certainly will never be herself. I'm sure she is cracking up. She wanted to cut the bed in half.


----------



## happyman64

Thor

Your wife has been cracking up for a while now. You know that.

She has hidden her sex addiction for a long time now.

Sadly, she has left you no alternatives anymore.

That is not your fault.

All you can do now is divorce her.

HM64


----------



## CantSitStill

Wow, I remember your old thread where you did the VAR and everything was good. Wow. I am so sorry to hear she's been fooling you all this time. This hell is ridiculous. I'll be praying for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cantthinkstraight

Thorburn said:


> Yes and my son also said, "Mom is crazy, she is cracking up".
> 
> It is amazing. She gets caught. Gets angry and it is of course my fault that she is tearing up the family, my fault that I am talking to her brother, who has been a friend for over 30 years, my fault she cheated, my fault, my fault, yada yada do.


Her behavior is straight from the cheaters script.

My ww did the same damn thing.

It's right there in my thread. (good luck finding it though)

Next, she'll attempt to play the victim to her friends and family,
while casting *you* as the monster for being so mean to her, for being so crazy
in "thinking" what you _*both*_ know is the truth.

Forget the fact that she did what she did, her goal is to make it 
your fault and relieve some of the pressure that these kinds of
people can't do anything with but attempt to deflect onto others.

It's so selfish and juvenile. 

I'm sorry you're going through this crap.

Try to stay above it and keep moving forward.


----------



## SaltInWound

cantthinkstraight said:


> It's so selfish and juvenile.


I never realized how selfish and juvenile a person was capable of being until my husband found a government loophole to make me homeless, keeping me from getting any of my stuff and making it nearly impossible for me to divorce him. He has unplugged the phones from the walls and refuses to answer e-mails. From his actions, you would think I was the cheater. I pray for karma.


----------



## Thorburn

Now I am the one cracking up.

Listened to more and it just might just one guy. The OM from 2011.

this crap, jumping to conclusions, reading too much into stuff. I don't know what is up or what is down.

I just don't know but I might have a partial answer tonight if a certain Pastor calls me.


----------



## warlock07

So the affair never ended?


----------



## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> this crap, jumping to conclusions, reading too much into stuff. I don't know what is up or what is down.


This is what happens to a person on the receiving end of lying and denial. 
Can you imagine the insanity of being 4,000 miles away and being given the silent treatment?


----------



## Thorburn

SaltInWound said:


> This is what happens to a person on the receiving end of lying and denial.
> Can you imagine the insanity of being 4,000 miles away and being given the silent treatment?


Yes I can. My youngest sister died shortly after I got into Combat in Iraq. The reason the Brigade commander gave me for not allowing me to go home for my youngest sister's funeral was "You are too critical to our mission". I have no one to replace you. I said if your sister or the command sergeant's Major's sister died you would be home. He said, I have a deputy commander and the Command Sergeant's Major can get one of the other Command Sergeant's Major to cover for him. We have no one to replace you.

I dealt with quite a few soldiers who found out their wives were cheating on them and they wanted to swallow a bullet.

So I do know by my fellow soldier's reactions what this can do to a person.

It sucks the big one when your life is in danger and your mind is thinking of things that you cannot control back home.

Yea, I stayed busy in Iraq.


----------



## Thorburn

warlock07 said:


> So the affair never ended?


Not sure. But it seems that way to me now. It would make sense. All the times I thought she was hooking up with strangers or new men fits a time line and location of being near where the OM lives or works.

It makes freaken sense. She never stopped. Now I need someone who knows his voice to confirm it.


----------



## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> Yes I can. My youngest sister died shortly after I got into Combat in Iraq.


Sorry to hear about your sister.


----------



## Thorburn

Talked to the prior OM's (still might be the current OM) pastor. He wants to talk to my youngest son so my son is calling him.

The pastor said he will look into it.

I guess the pastor is concerned that this Master Sergeant might take out a can of whoop as* on the dude.

My son said he was going to drive to the OM's work and confront him and tell him to stay away from our family. 

I got over 3 million hits on his cheaterville.com account, can't believe it 3,009,834 hits as of today.


----------



## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> I got over 3 million hits on his cheaterville.com account, can't believe it 3,009,834 hits as of today.


----------



## Thorburn

The pastor just wanted to talk to my son to verify the story. My son said he is going to confront the OM at his work. He told the pastor it is better I do it then my dad. He told the pastor to tell the OM to leave my mom alone and the pastor better end it.

If this proves to be true I will confront his family. I know where they all live and have businesses. His family are all Old Order Amish, yea the horse and buggy folks. He left the Amish church. I still have their phone numbers from 2011. And his boss. Last time his boss was more concerned for me then the OM. Told me he would pray for me and he said he favors grace over firing an employee. So the last time, exposure did not work like I thought. Just went underground. If I am correct.

My WS should get word of this, one way or the other. I keep watching the OM's and his wife's FB account and I kept telling my wife over the last year that that dude is up to no good. He has lots of girl friends that are fairly sleazy and his wife just lets him. Maybe he is in an open marriage. Yet the church he belongs to does not put up with this crap. It will be interesting if I found the answer.


----------



## alte Dame

So sorry, Thorburn. It's like you're living a Lifetime movie. You're very strong.


----------



## Thorburn

alte Dame said:


> So sorry, Thorburn. It's like you're living a Lifetime movie. You're very strong.


Got my prayer life back. Lost focus over the last few years due to my WS. Not raging, not drinking, talked to friends, and the advice here on TAM is always timely.


----------



## turnera

If OM dumps her and she comes sniffing around again, are you going to take her back?


----------



## bandit.45

I think now that Thorburn has exposed the OM to the pastor again whatever relationship T's wife has with this clown will evaporate. I don't know what kind of pressure the Amish or Mennonite church puts on its members, but I could imagine the OM will be put through the ringer. 

Thorburn won't take her back. He's taking this second heartbreak much more in stride. He's much stronger, more focused and more in tune with himself than he was last time. 

Thorburn is going to hurt and grieve for the marriage he lost, but he can look at himself in the mirror and know that he did everything he could to save his marriage, and that he extended more grace to his STBXW than she ever deserved. He's got nothing to be ashamed of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> If OM dumps her and she comes sniffing around again, are you going to take her back?


Legally I can't kick her out. Changing the locks will only cost me money and in the end she will be allowed back in.

I have detached. I will not engage her unless it is about bills.

She never talked about leaving me in hours of recording. The dude is not leaving his wife and kids. At least that is my guess. This was not an exit A. And I think that is why she is so angry. More so at herself.

She never really showed remorse last year and I was told this numerous times. 

Right now I don't care if she leaves, but her support is her brother, her friend that she reunited with after 30 some years from her high school party years, an attorney (I found out via her phone) and the OM who will be feeling heat soon. 

She does not have her youngest son to complain to about me, that is all she did last year. He said he will not put up with her non-sense.

My oldest son is a challenge and is starting to call his mother names. 

She is feeling strong heat. And like my oldest son told me, He said, "Dad, I think mom is cracking up".

Oh well.


----------



## bfree

bandit.45 said:


> I think now that Thorburn has exposed the OM to the pastor again whatever relationship T's wife has with this clown will evaporate. I don't know what kind of pressure the Amish or Mennonite church puts on its members, but I could imagine the OM will be put through the ringer.
> 
> Thorburn won't take her back. He's taking this second heartbreak much more in stride. He's much stronger, more focused and more in tune with himself than he was last time.
> 
> Thorburn is going to hurt and grieve for the marriage he lost, but he can look at himself in the mirror and know that he did everything he could to save his marriage, and that he extended more grace to his STBXW than she ever deserved. He's got nothing to be ashamed of.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well said.


----------



## Thorburn

Waiting for confirmation one way or the other if it is the same OM or not.


----------



## bandit.45

You know I've been thinking about it T, and if she is telling this guy about doing other guys and stuff...then I don't think he is the same OM. 

I think maybe we all want to believe its the same OM, because if it is, then at least there's a good chance she has not been serial cheating for at least the past year. 

But now I'm not so sure the more I think about it. I think suspecting she has been hooking up with young random strangers is far more disturbing and disgusting, and I think this is a contingency you may need to prepare yourself for T.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

it sucks, it's horrible, that last post you VARed her and all was good and I was happy for you and now she's going on screwing people AND bragging about it. WOW
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> You know I've been thinking about it T, and if she is telling this guy about doing other guys and stuff...then I don't think he is the same OM.
> 
> I think maybe we all want to believe its the same OM, because if it is, then at least there's a good chance she has not been serial cheating for at least the past year.
> 
> But now I'm not so sure the more I think about it. I think suspecting she has been hooking up with young random strangers is far more disturbing and disgusting, and I think this is a contingency you may need to prepare yourself for T.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is hard to listen to it. I have to go back and look at the context.


----------



## Shaggy

Could she be trying to make the OM jealous or could it be some sick sex talk to work him up?


----------



## Thorburn

She just came home about 15 minutes ago. My son gave me hug. She will not even look at me. Just looks very angry.


----------



## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> She just came home about 15 minutes ago. My son gave me hug. She will not even look at me. Just looks very angry.


Angry means things are not going favorably for her.


----------



## turnera

Good. Let her. No soothing, ok?


----------



## Shaggy

Maybe OM is angry at her if he got talked to?


----------



## Thorburn

SaltInWound said:


> Angry means things are not going favorably for her.


My older BIL is going to call my youngest BIL since she is no longer there.

My younger BIL is a great listener but is typically short on advice and I heard her complain to her middle sister last year about this. Her sister said don't you talk to our younger brother and my WS says, he listens but is not good at giving advice.

He is henpecked so it would be interesting to hear what my SIL thinks. Good guy but he is also still grieving the loss of his three year old from two years back. He is very emotional over her loss and can't get over it. He has already poured 100K into a fund for her and it is not even up and running, consultant fees, etc. I feel sorry for him. He became a millionaire due to his daughter's death and he has so much guilt. He spent over 80K to have his brother finish his basement and he only wanted to spend 15K. Yea, $80,000 to have a basement done. The house is worth maybe 250K and he paid 500K cash for it because his wife wanted it.

So that is my WS's support right now. A looney sister and her brother.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You are going to make yourself more miserable if you keep looking for ways to make her appear nicer. Every time you look for something it gets worse.
Honestly, unless it is to make you feel better, who cares how many? 
Truth be told, the amount of men doesn't matter, you tried to R and she spit in your face.


----------



## Thorburn

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You are going to make yourself more miserable if you keep looking for ways to make her appear nicer. Every time you look for something it gets worse.
> Honestly, unless it is to make you feel better, who cares how many?
> Truth be told, the amount of men doesn't matter, you tried to R and she spit in your face.


Yes she did big time.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Maybe OM is angry at her if he got talked to?


He was not in church today and the pastor could not reach him. He said he will call him at work tomorrow. My son says he is going there to confront him tried to tell him not to do that.


----------



## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> He was not in church today and the pastor could not reach him.


Interesting.


----------



## Shaggy

Could your wife have warned him that you've figurd it out?


----------



## lordmayhem

CantSitStill said:


> Wow, I remember your old thread where you did the VAR and everything was good. Wow. I am so sorry to hear she's been fooling you all this time. This hell is ridiculous. I'll be praying for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I remember that. Thorburn accidentally found the first burner phone and so she became wise and knew she might be being recorded. So she just took it further underground from the looks of it. But like most people who cheat, they eventually get careless, and if the BS is alert, they will be caught. Like HurtinTN's WW, this one has multiple burner phones.


----------



## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> She just came home about 15 minutes ago. My son gave me hug. She will not even look at me. Just looks very angry.


A hug from your son and she looks angry?

Fabulous. :smthumbup:


----------



## Almostrecovered

Not that you shouldn't try to expose OM to his parents but if he left the Amish church then his family has in all likelihood already disowned him and consider him dead.


----------



## Thorburn

Almostrecovered said:


> Not that you shouldn't try to expose OM to his parents but if he left the Amish church then his family has in all likelihood already disowned him and consider him dead.


Typically a person can leave without being shunned. I worked with several Amish over the years. Has to do with their bishop and how they leave. He was not shunned. Do not know their influence on him but I have all his family contact information.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Could your wife have warned him that you've figurd it out?


Sure. It is possible.


----------



## Thor

Why do you care any more about who this OM is? Why not jettison all the mental garbage that goes along with her cheating and instead focus on getting the best D you can?


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> He was not in church today and the pastor could not reach him. He said he will call him at work tomorrow. My son says he is going there to confront him tried to tell him not to do that.


Man.....you and your son need to be careful T. You have no concrete proof that the voice on that VAR is the OM from last year. 

Don't let your son go off hotheaded like that. That kinda stuff is what lands people in jail and if the OM is innocent of this latest offense, hitting him up wrongfully is just ammo your wife can use against you. 

Think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Thor said:


> Why do you care any more about who this OM is? Why not jettison all the mental garbage that goes along with her cheating and instead focus on getting the best D you can?


Agreed. She's the traitor. She is the one who lied and cheated and stole years from your life. 

Divorce this creature, find yourself a new woman and get on with your life Thorburn. The OM or any of the OMs are not worth your time. 

Of course you being the obsessive person you are, you will ignore this advice and figure out a way to make yourself look like a psycho to your in-laws and sons....like you did last year. 

Please don't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Agreed. She's the traitor. She is the one who lied and cheated and stole years from your life.
> 
> Divorce this creature, find yourself a new woman and get on with your life Thorburn. The OM or any of the OMs are not worth your time.
> 
> Of course you being the obsessive person you are, you will ignore this advice and figure out a way to make yourself look like a psycho to your in-laws and sons....like you did last year.
> 
> Please don't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not going psycho this time. Staying away from the booze and everyday I try to accomplish something.

Today I laid out the bills and will start addressing them. They are not as bad as I thought. Starting to think clearer.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> I am not going psycho this time. Staying away from the booze and everyday I try to accomplish something.
> 
> Today I laid out the bills and will start addressing them. They are not as bad as I thought. Starting to think clearer.


One day at a time brother. And if it gets to be too much, put on your walking shoes and get out of the house. Get some exercise and clear your head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

Thor said:


> Why do you care any more about who this OM is? Why not jettison all the mental garbage that goes along with her cheating and instead focus on getting the best D you can?


that is what I am trying to do. trying to sort it out. If I go fault it will get really messy and expensive, I have that option. No-fault, she already said she wants alimony and it could very well work in her favor. Even my disability payments from combat would be on the line, I was told by a friend that she could not touch it but my attorney says, she could get half or more.

I am hoping that her family will influence her to just let me go and split everything equally. Right now she is so angry that she is going to take me for everything and more.

I am hoping she cools down, because right now she is in the "I am angry I got caught and I don't know what is going to happen to me" stage. 

I know her and heard her say it to my son on the phone. "I am going to be on my own". She is looking at her future only.

My youngest son already said, if mom tries to take you for more than what is fair, I will not allow it. I know he had a lot of influence on his mother and they were close but they are not talking. 

That is what I am hoping for. 

My WS is not rational right now, maybe never was.


----------



## bandit.45

Dont trust her.

She's your enemy now.

Think of her as Al Qaeda.


----------



## turnera

Maybe you should postpone everything. Can she divorce you without your approval? Drag it out a couple years.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Maybe you should postpone everything. Can she divorce you without your approval? Drag it out a couple years.


Right now that is my plan. Let her file. 

I got two real nice tires for $80.00 installed.

And got through the bills. Coming up with a good plan to pay stuff.

She came home mad. would not look at me. I said we need to go over the bills.

I showed her the bank account and went over the bills. She basically would look at the bill, tell what was paid and what was owed and then she just about threw each one down on the table. 

The OM's from 2011 and I think it is the same guy, don't know for sure, is meeting with his pastor at 4:30. About 20 minutes from now. The pastor will call me later.

She did mention that I am pushing for D (said it very angrily) and wants to know who my attorney is and if I filed. I remained quiet.

She said she thinks she wants a D and can longer live like this. That she did nothing wrong. Did not buy air time or a phone.

All I wanted to do was get the bills straight and that is what I stayed focused on.

She is one angry person.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> Right now that is my plan. Let her file.
> 
> I got two real nice tires for $80.00 installed.
> 
> And got through the bills. Coming up with a good plan to pay stuff.


Dont wait too long. 

Go get yourself a girlfriend too..... (ahh sh!t....I'm gonna get pounded for that. :rofl


----------



## turnera

bandit.45 said:


> Dont wait too long.
> 
> Go get yourself a girlfriend too..... (ahh sh!t....I'm gonna get pounded for that. :rofl


 Eh, nothing wrong with letting her see you get all gussied up to go out for a night on the town. Not her business any more.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Eh, nothing wrong with letting her see you get all gussied up to go out for a night on the town. Not her business any more.


I am not doing that right now. I don't want to show the boys that kind of behavior. I have a doctor friend from my last job that wanted to do that last year. He told me I should have D my WS then and I did not listen. Not to offend the ladies, but my doctor friend (his wife and I grew up in the same area and know the same folks from back home) said, "Man, Mack I got some chicks that would die to meet you". I met some ladies at City Hall at a Veteran's symposium a few weeks ago, and they then set up an appointment to see me at my office. Shortly after that, they met with my doctor friend at his place of employment. Met with him and his staff. He said, they talked quite a bit about what a guy I was. 

Right now I just don't want to complicate my life. I really want to stay focused on my boys and how we are going to handle our lives moving forward.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> I am not doing that right now. I don't want to show the boys that kind of behavior. I have a doctor friend from my last job that wanted to do that last year. He told me I should have D my WS then and I did not listen. Not to offend the ladies, but my doctor friend (his wife and I grew up in the same area and know the same folks from back home) said, "Man, Mack I got some chicks that would die to meet you". I met some ladies at City Hall at a Veteran's symposium a few weeks ago, and they then set up an appointment to see me at my office. Shortly after that, they met with my doctor friend at his place of employment. Met with him and his staff. He said, they talked quite a bit about what a guy I was.
> 
> Right now I just don't want to complicate my life. I really want to stay focused on my boys and how we are going to handle our lives moving forward.



Good idea T. I was speaking in jest. Another woman in your life is the LAST thing you need.


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> She said she thinks she wants a D and can longer live like this.
> That she did nothing wrong.



She'll find out that playing around in a car isn't as much fun when you're single and can do it anytime you want. Something about the thrill of secrecy.
She *hasn't* been "living like this", she's been living like she's single.
If she honestly feels that there was "nothing wrong" with what she did in that car, then you getting her out of your life is the best thing that's ever happened to you, because she's delusional.

T


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Good idea T. I was speaking in jest. Another woman in your life is the LAST thing you need.


Lol. Cracking me up here. Been praying for the pastor as they meet right now. 

Well the pastor called me. Says the OM from last time seems sincere and says they have not had contact since December 2011. He says his wife and him have been in counseling since that time. Pastor told him I have a recording and the OM said then it will prove it is not me. 

I am not going into an investigative mode here.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> Lol. Cracking me up here. Been praying for the pastor as they meet right now.
> 
> Well the pastor called me. Says the OM from last time seems sincere and says they have not had contact since *December 2012.* He says his wife and him have been in counseling since that time. Pastor told him I have a recording and the OM said then it will prove it is not me.
> 
> I am not going into an investigative mode here.


Whoa whoa whoa whoa........

Thorburn, that's like less than three months ago. WTF is she doing contacting him?


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Whoa whoa whoa whoa........
> 
> Thorburn, that's like less than three months ago. WTF is she doing contacting him?


sorry December 2011. Not 2012. I just went back and did an edit.


----------



## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> She'll find out that playing around in a car isn't as much fun when you're single and can do it anytime you want. Something about the thrill of secrecy.
> She *hasn't* been "living like this", she's been living like she's single.
> If she honestly feels that there was "nothing wrong" with what she did in that car, then you getting her out of your life is the best thing that's ever happened to you, because she's delusional.
> 
> T


Delusional. That is how she acts towards me. Like she did nothing wrong and I am the bad guy. It is weird. Had I not read other posts on TAM over the last year I would think I lost it. She can sit there and look so sincere in saying, "I did nothing wrong".


----------



## alte Dame

Your description of your W gives me the impression of a very prideful person who simply will not be told what to do by you. So, you say black and she'll definitely say white. You say you have a recording. Well, sorry, that's not what you say it is. It just isn't, she says. It doesn't really sound like delusion to me so much as anger/rage and misplaced pride. Her age makes this very weird to me.


----------



## Mike11

T, 

she is not delusional, you must understand that in her twisted logic she did not do anything "wrong", this is classical cheaters script, deny deny and more deny, merely because she cannot come to terms with the fact that indeed what she has done is pure betrayal of the worst kind and she never saw herself as a woman like that 

in her mind having sexual trysts in her car with another man is not a bad thing and coupled with a very strong ability to compartmentalize her emotions and life it is not surprising that she in angry and blame shifting, she will wake up I believe , may be on time before the divorce to be remorseful and beg for a second chance, but sometimes it takes years, at 52 your external beauty has a very short expiry date, extremely limiting her prospects, she is aware of this and to some extent realizing she is going to be alone and that is not a good prospect for her.

Continue with the Divorce, if she wants to file than let her but honestly I don't believe she will, more of a "lets wait it out, may be Thorburn will forgive me eventually and all will be back to normal" type of thing 

the only way you can turn her around is by letting her go and her being angry is exactly what expected, who would not be when the meal ticket suddenly does not want to do anything with you any more


----------



## Fisherman

*Re: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



alte Dame said:


> Your description of your W gives me the impression of a very prideful person who simply will not be told what to do by you. So, you say black and she'll definitely say white. You say you have a recording. Well, sorry, that's not what you say it is. It just isn't, she says. It doesn't really sound like delusion to me so much as anger/rage and misplaced pride. Her age makes this very weird to me.


I agree she seems to calculating to be delusional.


----------



## turnera

bandit.45 said:


> Good idea T. I was speaking in jest. Another woman in your life is the LAST thing you need.


 Actually, I wasn't talking about another woman. Surely you have friends you can meet at the pub?


----------



## Thorburn

Mike11 said:


> T,
> 
> she is not delusional, you must understand that in her twisted logic she did not do anything "wrong", this is classical cheaters script, deny deny and more deny, merely because she cannot come to terms with the fact that indeed what she has done is pure betrayal of the worst kind and she never saw herself as a woman like that
> 
> in her mind having sexual trysts in her car with another man is not a bad thing and coupled with a very strong ability to compartmentalize her emotions and life it is not surprising that she in angry and blame shifting, she will wake up I believe , may be on time before the divorce to be remorseful and beg for a second chance, but sometimes it takes years, at 52 your external beauty has a very short expiry date, extremely limiting her prospects, she is aware of this and to some extent realizing she is going to be alone and that is not a good prospect for her.
> 
> Continue with the Divorce, if she wants to file than let her but honestly I don't believe she will, more of a "lets wait it out, may be Thorburn will forgive me eventually and all will be back to normal" type of thing
> 
> the only way you can turn her around is by letting her go and her being angry is exactly what expected, who would not be when the meal ticket suddenly does not want to do anything with you any more


Man, Mike, this is exactly what I said to my oldest BIL today. He gets it.

Like her brother said, she has no plan. 

When we were doing the bills, she said I did not answer her question about the attorney and filing for D. I said, I heard that you were doing that. Man, I wished I had a video. With hatred on her face she said, "you told me last week that YOU wanted a D". "You said it". Like I said the most god awful thing in the world by mentioning D. 

She said if you don't share finances you will have to do so. I said what do you want to know and I will share all the information with you that you want and I did.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Actually, I wasn't talking about another woman. Surely you have friends you can meet at the pub?


I do and one friend said we should meet this week. He called me today to make sure I was not drinking.


----------



## turnera

When posters would have spouses actively cheating on them, sometimes I will recommend that they tell the cheating spouse to take care of the kids, that THEY have made plans to go out. Get dressed, smell great...and go to the library for a couple hours. THEY don't know where you are going, and they will assume you're doing the same thing THEY are. Drives 'em nuts.


----------



## CantSitStill

When Calvin and I were having problems, before I confessed my EA he did that. It did have me wondering, especially since it was so unlike him. But he was on TAM at the time so someone suggested it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kasler

File divorce. 

Sorry, but you may have a smidge of fog if you think shes going to purposely cast away her meal ticket so she can be a 52(53 by then maybe) year old divorcee with children who don't respect her and will likely inform any future partners why her marriage ended, attractiveness already on it's way out the door, and she'll likely have to bum off her family members just to get by. 

Like another poster said, she is NOT going to file divorce. She is just gonna hope you 'get over it' and things can go back to a facsimile of how things used to be. 

You need to go ahead and do it so you can get that divorce clock ticking.(I really wish I could point you to Carlton's thread where its much more apparent why you shouldn't wait on filing D, but its gone now)

While its not the same situation, what did not filing a year ago when you knew you should've get you?

Nothing positive.


----------



## vi_bride04

Kasler said:


> File divorce.
> 
> 
> Like another poster said, she is NOT going to file divorce. She is just gonna hope you 'get over it' and things can go back to a facsimile of how things used to be.


:iagree:

She is a cheater and will follow the script just like every other cheater...SHE WILL NOT FILE FOR DIVORCE

Cake eater mentality...keep that in mind


----------



## Jasel

Why the rush to divorce exactly if she'll take you to the cleaners and you can't afford it anyway? I'm not talking about reconciling but have you considered dragging that out as much as possible until you can get yourself in a posistion to somewhat land on your feet?


----------



## SaltInWound

Jasel said:


> Why the rush to divorce exactly if she'll take you to the cleaners and you can't afford it anyway? I'm not talking about reconciling but have you considered dragging that out as much as possible until you can get yourself in a posistion to somewhat land on your feet?


:iagree:


----------



## Kasler

That depends, is there much debt? cause cleaners or no both of you are getting it so it'd be good to offload some with her if any.


----------



## Mike11

Jasel said:


> Why the rush to divorce exactly if she'll take you to the cleaners and you can't afford it anyway? I'm not talking about reconciling but have you considered dragging that out as much as possible until you can get yourself in a posistion to somewhat land on your feet?


Jasel is right, this is the best way to push her to the corner :smthumbup:

Drag it for as much as you can, she will not be able to siphon any money from you as long as you are still married.


----------



## Granny7

Mike11 said:


> Jasel is right, this is the best way to push her to the corner :smthumbup:
> 
> Drag it for as much as you can, she will not be able to siphon any money from you as long as you are still married.


Mike11,
Sometimes peace is better than war! Your body can only deal with so much and you just want to be alone and not fight any more battles. I think he should just get it over with, cut his losses and be able to sleep "safely" at night, since she can be a loose cannon. Just my opinion for what it's worth.
Granny7


----------



## snap

Thorburn, stop discussing divorce with her, just file. Her facial expressions are irrelevant, that you feel vindicated by her feigning surprise is a hint you don't really want to divorce yourself.

She knows that too.


----------



## Mike11

Granny7 said:


> Mike11,
> Sometimes peace is better than war! Your body can only deal with so much and you just want to be alone and not fight any more battles. I think he should just get it over with, cut his losses and be able to sleep "safely" at night, since she can be a loose cannon. Just my opinion for what it's worth.
> Granny7


I generally Agree with you, But sometimes one need to be prepared to defend oneself, she is very much counting on his military pension and disability pay, there is nothing more heinous then the ultimate disrespect to betray someone to the effect that she did and to live of money that this someone is getting from his honorable sacrifice, she is a leach and honestly there is no battle here, they can be separated live in different homes without the need to see each other, the divorce is up to Thorburn to decide on timing not her call

just my 0.02


----------



## Thorburn

If I file now with her in her confused state of mind and her heart full of rage, bitterness and hate she will fight for everything she can. 

If she breaks down like she has in the past then I might have a better chance in D. I am in no hurry at this time.

I want to try to get a handle on our money situation. It is hard moving forward each day but I set goals. Most days I have met them. Yesterday it was getting tires. Man, I kept dragging it out and finally got two nice tires for $80.00 installed. It took all I had to do that but I did it. 

Now I need front brakes. I typically do this myself. On my truck it is easy. Just need a second person to help with bleeding the lines. I just need pads. My son has my truck jack so maybe he will help me this weekend.

I am going to dinner with my former roommates on Thursday and I think tomorrow I am going out with a good friend who worked where I use to work. He calls me everyday.

Today I am meeting with a pastor who my older BIL has been recommending for the last year. He has a church here in the City. My BIL knows him from denominational conferences. 

On Thursday I am going to propose to my former roommates that they help me in the furiture refinishing business. they are both artist, have a small art studio, and room in their basement. He is unemployed and does house painting and odd jobs. They are a sweet couple. I lived with them for several months. She has tattoos and piercings but is really a sweet girl. When I first met them to look at the apartment I thought I was in the twilight zone. I know how to get stuff cheap and know what people are looking for as far as the end result.

When my WS and I started doing this a few months ago it was an instant success. And things hit the crapper when she wanted to meet men who were interested in meeting her half way to buy an item. I said to her, no way, they come to our house, you don't know who these people are. She was complaining to the OM on the recording about this. My husband does not want me to meet men half way because you don't who they are. She thought that me saying no was basically horrible. For her it was no big deal and now I know why.

With her PT job checks starting to come in and the refinishing business we were starting to see some serious cash flow. But it all ended. It was if she got the checks from work in the mail, sold some items, and we had people interested in a few tables and wham. We were on our way and now this. Now I am trying to seel the stuff for whatever I can get. I got an offer on a table for $30. that should bring about $300 and I am seriously thinking of taking it.

Right now I feel I have good support. My youngest son talks to me several times a day. He sees everything and does not get his mother. To think how close they were. He told her over the last year to tell me everything and if you do dad will get over this. She didn't and we now know why.

The other pastor met with the former OM. He says there has not been contact in about a year. The last contact that I know they had on the phone. The pastor says he believes him. Told him I have a recording and the OM said it will prove it is not me. At some point I will stop by and let the pastor hear the voice. But it seems like this OM is history.


----------



## bandit.45

I think you need to swallow the reality that she is hooking up with multiple men. Your wife is either part of a swinging network or she intentionally goes out looking for strange

You mentioned on the recording you heard someone tell your wife and this dude to "have fun" or "have a good time". Was this a woman's voice?

Could this be that toxic friend of hers who moved back in the area and who your gut was screaming at you telling you she and your WW were up to no good?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> I think you need to swallow the reality that she is hooking up with multiple men. Your wife is either part of a swinging network or she intentionally goes out looking for strange
> 
> You mentioned on the recording you heard someone tell your wife and this dude to "have fun" or "have a good time". Was this a woman's voice?
> 
> Could this be that toxic friend of hers who moved back in the area and who your gut was screaming at you telling you she and your WW were up to no good?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not real clear on who that voice is or the exact context. When the OM gets in the car there seems to be another voice talking that sounds like I mentioned, a female voice. Then the OM says sorry my hands are sticky. So I am not sure where they are at, perhaps he is just leaving work. Could be a conveince store.

I will try to have someone listen to it and transcribe it for me. I can't listen to it for long.


----------



## bandit.45

What a freakin mess. I didn't mean to rub salt in your wounds T.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Not your concern any more. You are moving on.

Right?


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Not your concern any more. You are moving on.
> 
> Right?


All I am doing right now is trying to sort my mind and heart out. Not letting anger and bitterness take over like it did last year. I am trying to stay afloat financially, mentally and spiritually for me and my boys.

I certainly am in better shape then I was last year in these areas but man is it hard. There are moments where I feel like I am just cracking up. And fortunately in those moments I have folks that I can talk with. I just called my youngest son and it was nice just to hear a voice that understands.


----------



## bandit.45

T, next time you see her call her into the room and just ask her direct questions:

1). How long have been hooking up with random men?

2). How many different men have you hooked up with over the last year?

3). Are you meeting these guys by way of a dating site, Craigslist, or are you in a swinging network?

4). Have you been using protection when you have sex with them?

Ask her these questions calmly but boldly. See what she does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

No, I just mean that it doesn't matter who she did it with. Or what they did. Sort your heart out, but don't waste time or space in your head thinking about who what where when. It doesn't matter. Focus on forward movement.


----------



## Aunt Ava

Thorburn said:


> Now I am trying to seel the stuff for whatever I can get. I got an offer on a table for $30. that should bring about $300 and I am seriously thinking of taking it.


Don't sell yourself short. You know that isn't good business practice. You can offer a discount, but at $30 you you aren't even covering your costs. Be firm, get at least $200.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> T, next time you see her call her into the room and just ask her direct questions:
> 
> 1). How long have been hooking up with random men?
> 
> 2). How many different men have you hooked up with over the last year?
> 
> 3). Are you meeting these guys by way of a dating site, Craigslist, or are you in a swinging network?
> 
> 4). Have you been using protection when you have sex with them?
> 
> Ask her these questions calmly but boldly. See what she does.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Last year I went off. My sons were with me as they went off as well. They stopped. I did not. Then my sons turned on me. My youngest understands now the his mother did not give me answers and blew things off and went back to not be accountable for where she was. My youngest son said to me recently, Dad, I never saw you angry like that. 

I am not confronting her and risk losing my cool. There are now many things in the past that do not make sense to me. It bugs me but I will more than likely never get the truth. Like the time shortly I came home from Iraq and she had 7 broken ribs and her doctor accused me of abusing her (being a recent combat Vet). She was in the hospital for a week and I was the only one that visited her every day. I remember her coughing a lot and I know with her condition she broke a rib when our dog jumped on her. I have been in the medical setting for years and it was not unheard of to have this many broken ribs from coughing. Now I wonder. Did a guy abuse her when I was at work. 

I know. Don't go there. All I am saying is that there are now so many questionable things over the past years.


----------



## bandit.45

That's cool T.

I was just mentioning it as a way to judge her current emotional state and willingness to be open. Sounds like it would backfire...you're right.

That's scary about her breaking her ribs. What was her explanation? Did she give one? Man this story just gets more weird and convoluted.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> That's cool T.
> 
> I was just mentioning it as a way to judge her current emotional state and willingness to be open. Sounds like it would backfire...you're right.
> 
> That's scary about her breaking her ribs. What was her explanation? Did she give one? Man this story just gets more weird and convoluted.


She was coughing severely during this time for several days. It was bad. i remember her going to bed and I was downstairs. I remember hearing her moan loudly and I ran upstairs and found her on all fours in extreme pain. I helped her get dressed, carried her to the car and took her to the hospital. Her family doctor told her that with the chemo she gets it tends to weaken bone mass and that coughing caused this. Her specialist at the hospital accused me of abusing her and had social workers visit twice a day to get my wife to "confess". I remember her telling everyone to contact her family doctor and he can explain her condition and that my husband is not a violent man.

Last year after her A I told her. Remember the time you broke your ribs. I said no one visited you in the hospital. Not even our sons. I said you were there for a week and I came every day and spent hours with you. I said no ever cared for you more than me.


----------



## happyman64

Thorburn

Do not drive yourself crazy about the past.

Focus on the present.

Get rid of those bills. 
Get everything current.
Fix the car.

Ignore your wife for now.

Go about your business and when the time is right then pull the trigger on the divorce.

You know your wife is sick in many ways. Mentally and physically.

You tried to fix the marriage. But it takes two.

So worry about yourself, the boys and getting the mess leaned up.

Everything else will get sorted in good time.


----------



## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> Last year after her A I told her. Remember the time you broke your ribs. I said no one visited you in the hospital. Not even our sons. I said you were there for a week and I came every day and spent hours with you. I said no ever cared for you more than me.


I am sorry about that. I can relate. A few years ago my husband had to have emergency surgery on base. It was really bad and he was then transferred to the local foreign hospital. When I went to visit him, the staff was working on him and it was a rather barbaric looking sight.....5 people searching and poking for a vein for the IV, neck and arm swollen with fluid. My husband took one look at me and said "Salt, please get these witch doctors away from me". He was begging me to help him and was in so much pain he could barely talk. I did what I could to calm him so that he could focus. And I think back on that 3 days when I thought he was going to die and I think about what he has done to me since. How did I go from his savior to the person he never wants to talk to or be near?


----------



## Thorburn

happyman64 said:


> Thorburn
> 
> Do not drive yourself crazy about the past.
> 
> Focus on the present.
> 
> Get rid of those bills.
> Get everything current.
> Fix the car.
> 
> Ignore your wife for now.
> 
> Go about your business and when the time is right then pull the trigger on the divorce.
> 
> You know your wife is sick in many ways. Mentally and physically.
> 
> You tried to fix the marriage. But it takes two.
> 
> So worry about yourself, the boys and getting the mess leaned up.
> 
> Everything else will get sorted in good time.


Man, that is my plan.


----------



## MattMatt

CantSitStill said:


> When Calvin and I were having problems, before I confessed my EA he did that. It did have me wondering, especially since it was so unlike him. But he was on TAM at the time so someone suggested it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Turnera! Was that you??:smthumbup:


----------



## turnera

I was wondering the same thing!


----------



## bandit.45

MattMatt said:


> Turnera! Was that you??:smthumbup:


Dude we were ALL suggesting it. I twas a unified front if I recall.


----------



## arbitrator

bandit.45 said:


> Dude we were ALL suggesting it. It was a unified front if I recall.


*Let's just say that the votes for reconcilliation in this particular case are severely lacking!*


----------



## Thorburn

The pastor that I was suppose to meet with had to cancel. I came home early, My WS I guess is at work. Oh, she just came home. This is the earliest she ever came home. Maybe her and the OM are chilling for a while.

Anyway I had a long talk with my oldest BIL. He said that my WS was using my rage and drinking last year to deflect any blame on her. He said she did this for 15 years. Mac looked at porn. Mac got raging and drinking last year. He said for 15 years it worked. 

He said the fact that she was able to blame me is no longer making sense as people look back on 15 years of cheating. He said you extended grace to her and what did she do? She never came clean on anything. She never was held accountable. She was always given a pass. He said he is trying to get the other family members not to give her a pass.

He said the fact that I became a drinking ragoholic gave her all the ammunition she needed and it is not working this time. He said the spotlight is on her. He said, I suspect my WS was expecting me to rage and drink and since I have taken another course of action she does not know what to do. He said she is a sick person and her family is confused. That somehow in her twisted mind she convinced some in the past that I caused this and he said it never made sense. He said if he could talk to her he would say, forget about Mac, what about you? Stop blaming Mac. You are accountable for your actions. And what you have done is complete lunacy.

He says he does not know what to do with her. She seems so far gone and says he does not know what it will take to turn her.

I said, well you folks are going to have to deal with her in the future, not me.

I said I wish she would turn for the boy's sake but she seems so far gone right now that I don't see that happening.

This is just crazy.


----------



## Fisherman

Thorburn said:


> The pastor that I was suppose to meet with had to cancel. I came home early, My WS I guess is at work. Oh, she just came home. This is the earliest she ever came home. Maybe her and the OM are chilling for a while.
> 
> Anyway I had a long talk with my oldest BIL. He said that my WS was using my rage and drinking last year to deflect any blame on her. He said she did this for 15 years. Mac looked at porn. Mac got raging and drinking last year. He said for 15 years it worked.
> 
> He said the fact that she was able to blame me is no longer making sense as people look back on 15 years of cheating. He said you extended grace to her and what did she do? She never came clean on anything. She never was held accountable. She was always given a pass. He said he is trying to get the other family members not to give her a pass.
> 
> He said the fact that I became a drinking ragoholic gave her all the ammunition she needed and it is not working this time. He said the spotlight is on her. He said, I suspect my WS was expecting me to rage and drink and since I have taken another course of action she does not know what to do. He said she is a sick person and her family is confused. That somehow in her twisted mind she convinced some in the past that I caused this and he said it never made sense. He said if he could talk to her he would say, forget about Mac, what about you? Stop blaming Mac. You are accountable for your actions. And what you have done is complete lunacy.
> 
> He says he does not know what to do with her. She seems so far gone and says he does not know what it will take to turn her.
> 
> I said, well you folks are going to have to deal with her in the future, not me.
> 
> I said I wish she would turn for the boy's sake but she seems so far gone right now that I don't see that happening.
> 
> This is just crazy.


She would probably turn if she ended up with aids.


----------



## Thorburn

Jkw4338 said:


> She would probably turn if she ended up with aids.


I doubt it right now. I don't see anything turning her around in her state. I see my doctor on Friday. I saw my preliminary results online and it looks like I am clear. HIV came back neg. as did the other tests. But I will have to be tested again for HIV as there can be a time period where it is neg. and a person can still have it.

Man the stuff we have to do because of stupid people.


----------



## bandit.45

What does she do when she's home T? Does she go straight to her bedroom and lock herself in and not talk to you, or does she follow you around the house trying to goad you into a fight?


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> What does she do when she's home T? Does she go straight to her bedroom and lock herself in and not talk to you, or does she follow you around the house trying to goad you into a fight?


Typically goes to her room with our Golden Retriever "Rudy", shuts the door and stays up there.


----------



## Thorburn

Just talked to my youngest son. He said "Mom played you for 15 years". He said, mom does not call me or text me and he said he is ready to blast her for what she is doing. Man, my WS and son were close. I said, call your uncle. My son and oldest BIL have not talked since this started. He said someone needs to wake her up. Funny, my oldest BIL says my WS is like Nick in the movie Deer Hunter where Mike is trying to tell Nick to wake up from his nightmare while playing Russian Roulette and kind of wakes up right before shooting himself in the head.

My wife said, where is my computer. I forgot it and said I forgot it. She said you were going to give it to me. Then she said, I am going to go out and buy one then. I just walked away.

All her friends she has been telling me about and the people supporting her you would think one would help her out with a computer. There is one upstairs that my son uses.

Unreal. The anger spewing from her. 

Detachment and peace.


----------



## Thorburn

My youngest son just called me after speaking to his uncle (my oldest BIL who is a pastor in North Dakota). He wants to call his other uncle in South Africa, who is a missionary. My son said that his mother told him the only people she will talk to is him and her family the only people who cares for her. Yet my WS will not talk to my son or her older brother. My son said this is war and that I have to stay strong, don't drink and talk to a hundred people if I have to to get through this. He said he told his uncle that my dad does not deserve this. He has been played for 15 years. His uncle said I know, he said she has pulled the wool over the family for years and my son said this has got to stop now.

He said he will fly out and do a family intervention with my son and the rest of the family if needed.

My son said this is not his mother and he says it is so bizarre.

He said what if mom dies tomorrow or next week of next month. He said this is what I will remember for the rest of my life. 

My son said, Dad stay strong.

It is so sad to see him having to deal with this crap but he said he has to step up to the plate because my WS will not listen to me.

He said this will be so hard for her to change because of all the years of lies and cheating. He said, Dad we got to reach her before it is too late.


----------



## Mike11

Thorburn said:


> The pastor that I was suppose to meet with had to cancel. I came home early, My WS I guess is at work. Oh, she just came home. This is the earliest she ever came home. Maybe her and the OM are chilling for a while.
> 
> Anyway I had a long talk with my oldest BIL. He said that my WS was using my rage and drinking last year to deflect any blame on her. He said she did this for 15 years. Mac looked at porn. Mac got raging and drinking last year. He said for 15 years it worked.
> 
> He said the fact that she was able to blame me is no longer making sense as people look back on 15 years of cheating. He said you extended grace to her and what did she do? She never came clean on anything. She never was held accountable. She was always given a pass. He said he is trying to get the other family members not to give her a pass.
> 
> He said the fact that I became a drinking ragoholic gave her all the ammunition she needed and it is not working this time. He said the spotlight is on her. He said, I suspect my WS was expecting me to rage and drink and since I have taken another course of action she does not know what to do. He said she is a sick person and her family is confused. That somehow in her twisted mind she convinced some in the past that I caused this and he said it never made sense. He said if he could talk to her he would say, forget about Mac, what about you? Stop blaming Mac. You are accountable for your actions. And what you have done is complete lunacy.
> 
> He says he does not know what to do with her. She seems so far gone and says he does not know what it will take to turn her.
> 
> I said, well you folks are going to have to deal with her in the future, not me.
> 
> I said I wish she would turn for the boy's sake but she seems so far gone right now that I don't see that happening.
> 
> This is just crazy.


Thorburn 

She desperately needs an intervention of some sort, she behaves like an addict, this is not going to end up well especially if what you described about her broken ribs, I have never heard about several broken ribs from coughing, someone probably roughed her out and combined with her condition she broke her ribs, you have to convince your BIL to rally the family to get her treatment or this is not going to end good for her 
May be not as your wife but as a person that needs help


----------



## Thorburn

Mike11 said:


> Thorburn
> 
> She desperately needs an intervention of some sort, she behaves like an addict, this is not going to end up well especially if what you described about her broken ribs, I have never heard about several broken ribs from coughing, someone probably roughed her out and combined with her condition she broke her ribs, you have to convince your BIL to rally the family to get her treatment or this is not going to end good for her
> May be not as your wife but as a person that needs help


A nurse at the hospital where I use to work said her aunt broke 8 ribs coughing. My WS family doctor said that is what happened to my wife as he has been treating her for years, still does. He was my doctor at one time and I heard him say it. I do know my wife was coughing hard for days during this time. I remember once during this she said I think I just broke a rib after a coughing fit. I also know that her bones were compromised due to her chemo but now they have her on medication for that.

My BIL has been speaking family intervention for a while now. He was hoping to wait till his brother returns from South Africa in March some time. He has been trying to get the other members on board and I think he is finally getting to them. They were believing my wife and now her house of cards are crumbling because I am not engaging her.

That is what my one friend who calls me frequently says - she is a sex addict.


----------



## Mike11

Thorburn said:


> A nurse at the hospital where I use to work said her aunt broke 8 ribs coughing. My WS family doctor said that is what happened to my wife as he has been treating her for years, still does. He was my doctor at one time and I heard him say it. I do know my wife was coughing hard for days during this time. I remember once during this she said I think I just broke a rib after a coughing fit. I also know that her bones were compromised due to her chemo but now they have her on medication for that.
> 
> My BIL has been speaking family intervention for a while now. He was hoping to wait till his brother returns from South Africa in March some time. He has been trying to get the other members on board and I think he is finally getting to them. They were believing my wife and now her house of cards are crumbling because I am not engaging her.
> 
> That is what my one friend who calls me frequently says - she is a sex addict.


Thorburn 

Understood, I was not aware of her chemo, it is good to disengage and detach and this is the exact cause of her lies house of cards falling down, i would suggest to look at her as a very sick person who needs help as a state of mind, it will help you great deal with dealing with her betrayal and past 15 years of her actions like any alcoholic and drug addict


----------



## turnera

Thorburn said:


> He said if he could talk to her he would say, forget about Mac, what about you? Stop blaming Mac. You are accountable for your actions. And what you have done is complete lunacy.


And tell me, again, WHY he cannot do this?


----------



## turnera

Thorburn said:


> My youngest son just called me after speaking to his uncle (my oldest BIL who is a pastor in North Dakota). He wants to call his other uncle in South Africa, who is a missionary. My son said that his mother told him the only people she will talk to is him and her family the only people who cares for her. Yet my WS will not talk to my son or her older brother. My son said this is war and that I have to stay strong, don't drink and talk to a hundred people if I have to to get through this. He said he told his uncle that my dad does not deserve this. He has been played for 15 years. His uncle said I know, he said she has pulled the wool over the family for years and my son said this has got to stop now.
> 
> He said he will fly out and do a family intervention with my son and the rest of the family if needed.
> 
> My son said this is not his mother and he says it is so bizarre.
> 
> He said what if mom dies tomorrow or next week of next month. He said this is what I will remember for the rest of my life.
> 
> My son said, Dad stay strong.
> 
> It is so sad to see him having to deal with this crap but he said he has to step up to the plate because my WS will not listen to me.
> 
> He said this will be so hard for her to change because of all the years of lies and cheating. He said, Dad we got to reach her before it is too late.


No offense, but you know what I see? I seen an ENTIRE TROOP of men who are too weak to stand up to ONE WOMAN. HER family. You. Your sons. All of you posture and posture and posture. All while she struts around treating all the men in her life like trash. 

See a pattern?


----------



## Affaircare

Thorburn~

May I politely remind you of something? If you have determined in your mind and heart that you are divorcing her and detaching, then it really is not your worry any longer whether she is a sex addict or not, whether she has an intervention or not, etc. From this point forward, it may be helpful to deal with her like you would deal with the checker at the grocery store. Do you want to know where the grocery checker has been? Do you talk to the grocery checker's family? Do you think and think and think about what the grocery checker's mental illnesses may be? Do you consider whether the grocery checker has a laptop or or has funds to pay her bills? 

My point is that it's reasonable for her son to be involved and for her brother to be involved...because they are her family and part of her life. I know you are still her husband by law and not divorced yet, and there's possibly even parts of you that want her to be well and not be an addict! But you do need to practice also disengaging from "saving her." If she's going to change at all, it has to come from within her wanting it so much that she does the hard work to be different and accept responsibility for her choices. 

So I encourage you to disengage from the whole "intervention" thing and even the talking between BIL talking to son, son talking to BIL. I mean I get it, your son is your son....and the BIL may one day be an ex-BIL but currently he's still related. Nonetheless you are entangling yourself emotionally in the outcome of your wife's mental issues, and frankly after all this time she may not be willing or ready to face herself or admit she has a problem. I strongly encourage you to disentangle from all this and trust those who are her family to do what is best for her. Meanwhile you stay closely focused on your self and your daily goals. Like...did you get your bills "written down" today so you have a clear idea of the balances and due dates? 

Finally, just by way of a confirmation, my Dear Hubby has COPD and once when he had bronchitis and an asthma attack, he coughed until he broke ribs. So I've seen it happen.


----------



## Thorburn

Affaircare said:


> Thorburn~
> 
> May I politely remind you of something? If you have determined in your mind and heart that you are divorcing her and detaching, then it really is not your worry any longer whether she is a sex addict or not, whether she has an intervention or not, etc. From this point forward, it may be helpful to deal with her like you would deal with the checker at the grocery store. Do you want to know where the grocery checker has been? Do you talk to the grocery checker's family? Do you think and think and think about what the grocery checker's mental illnesses may be? Do you consider whether the grocery checker has a laptop or or has funds to pay her bills?
> 
> My point is that it's reasonable for her son to be involved and for her brother to be involved...because they are her family and part of her life. I know you are still her husband by law and not divorced yet, and there's possibly even parts of you that want her to be well and not be an addict! But you do need to practice also disengaging from "saving her." If she's going to change at all, it has to come from within her wanting it so much that she does the hard work to be different and accept responsibility for her choices.
> 
> So I encourage you to disengage from the whole "intervention" thing and even the talking between BIL talking to son, son talking to BIL. I mean I get it, your son is your son....and the BIL may one day be an ex-BIL but currently he's still related. Nonetheless you are entangling yourself emotionally in the outcome of your wife's mental issues, and frankly after all this time she may not be willing or ready to face herself or admit she has a problem. I strongly encourage you to disentangle from all this and trust those who are her family to do what is best for her. Meanwhile you stay closely focused on your self and your daily goals. Like...did you get your bills "written down" today so you have a clear idea of the balances and due dates?
> 
> Finally, just by way of a confirmation, my Dear Hubby has COPD and once when he had bronchitis and an asthma attack, he coughed until he broke ribs. So I've seen it happen.


Thanks for the advice.

I did get the bills written down and I prioritized them. I have to write the checks or call the places to pay them.

I had a very peaceful sleep last night. I did eat dinner and had a small breakfast this morning.

This morning she made coffee and went to the living room to watch the news and sports. Not a word was spoken.

I am detaching.

As many of you know the reality of this is so bizaare. The wife I thought I knew is someone else. I really depended upon her and in reality she has not been there for years. 

It is lonely. 

I have not beaten myself up. I do not feel less of a man. I listened to the recording enough to know that she had sex at least three times that day with the OM. The passion. To hear my wife talk about me, going on and on and the OM says very little. It is ironic, that I see it. She is complaining about me, and he waits till he can have sex again. He does not care about her, none of them do. They got a free ride. Listen to the WS, let her get it out and then we can get down to the real business.

As painful as it was to listen I do not sit there and say if only I, or man, I caused this.

As I listen, it is like I have a look at her soul. She wants to stay married, wants me to do more things with my special needs son, stop checking on her. She never talks about leaving, or what it will be like without me. 

I am confident that it is not me. I don't have pity parties for me. Do I have short comings, sure I do. 

Her playbook for 15 years was, put the blame on Mac and I get off free. No one ever held her accountable. They always focused on me by her playing the victim and it worked. Mac will get angry and drink and man oh man everyone focuses on him and I go along on my merry way and everyone thinks I am this nice, fun person who has a rotten husband.

Now that I am not drinking my pain away, not engaging her, seeking good counsel, telling the truth that can be verified. Being upfront with what I did wrong and how I am moving forward. It changes the cycle, the dynamic and puts the bullseye right on the real problem, her.

In 1999 it took a keylogger and pages upon pages of text written to her online lovers for her family to believe me. They verified the program, talked to the company. At first they thought I just typed everything. It was hell. She had her family convinced that I was beating her, etc. It was not until they talked to my sons (took months before they did it) when they were 11 and 12 years old and the text from the keylogger to prove that I never did those things. 

I have been married almost 30 years to a woman I adored. She was the sunrise in my heart. With me through the ups and downs. She was the reason I stayed in the military for over 38 years so I could get a good retirement and healthcare when we are old. I could go on and on.

Now I don't know who or what she is. 

I will make it. It is all the unknowns that cause me anxiety and that is my daily struggle. Yesterday was rough but I made it and actually ended up the day on a positive note. Woke up rested, slept through the night. Am positive right now, no pangs, no anxiety. Not even thinking when it will hit me again as it will.

I eat (not as well as I should but I am eating), I am getting good rest. I am focused on my work, I am not behind on anything. I am seeing my primary doctor and my psychiatrist on Friday. I have several plans that are in my opinion all good ones and each one depends what I do first. 

My motivation level is low. It is hard to do anything I plan but most days I get it done. 

My focus is to continue to detach from my WS and not engage her, staying strong, getting the truck inspected and pay the bills and stay connected to those folks that care about me.


----------



## bandit.45

You're in a good frame of mind T. You always were reactive, now you are proactive. You are getting your ducks in a row and you are taking the high road. She doesn't know who you are anymore either and it scares the hell out of her. 

You think she's ignoring you? Don't fall for it. She's watching you like a hawk. Don't give her any ammo to use against you. Guard what you say and do around her. 

She's the enemy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> No offense, but you know what I see? I seen an ENTIRE TROOP of men who are too weak to stand up to ONE WOMAN. HER family. You. Your sons. All of you posture and posture and posture. All while she struts around treating all the men in her life like trash.
> 
> See a pattern?


You are correct in that this is the pattern. 

As far as her family is concerned they would like to wait till their brother comes home from South Africa. And keep in mind that some of my WS's family are still in shock, that they find it hard to believe that she is doing this.

They have to sort it out. Listen, you don't go into battle without a plan. I have been on planning cells in the military for years and it is a very complicated process. Gather intel, look at the terrain, assets, who you are up against, resources, etc, etc. So posturing needs to be done.

I am disengaging from what they will or will not do. I am putting it on her family to decide.

I care about her but I am not the one to be involved in this.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> You're in a good frame of mind T. You always were reactive, now you are proactive. You are getting your ducks in a row and you are taking the high road. She doesn't know who you are anymore either and it scares the hell out of her.
> 
> You think she's ignoring you? Don't fall for it. She's watching you like a hawk. Don't give her any ammo to use against you. Guard what you say and do around her.
> 
> She's the enemy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know. Are you a mind reader? Because these are my thoughts.


----------



## bandit.45

Sympatico bro.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Thorburn said:


> I am disengaging from what they will or will not do. I am putting it on her family to decide.
> 
> I care about her but I am not the one to be involved in this.


 Actually, I was more concerned about how your sons are being (or were) raised. I'm hoping they don't bring that fear of conflict into their own marriages. And they would need to see you standing up, for them to learn it. Better late than never, I guess. But I hope you have some talks with them about how things might have been different if a person doing wrong is held more accountable, so they can apply it to their own lives.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Actually, I was more concerned about how your sons are being (or were) raised. I'm hoping they don't bring that fear of conflict into their own marriages. And they would need to see you standing up, for them to learn it. Better late than never, I guess. But I hope you have some talks with them about how things might have been different if a person doing wrong is held more accountable, so they can apply it to their own lives.


My oldest son is special needs and gets it to a point but has his own way of dealing with things. My youngest son talked to him yesterday and says he gets it and is willing to take him in if he needs to do so.

My youngest son gets it. He said he does not get his mother. We sent the boys to a private Christian school (not cheap). My wife wanted the boys to have a solid Christian education. The school was great. He said this is not the mother who raised them. He said the mother he knew is not here. About a week ago he called her and yelled at her, saying where is the mother I loved and knew because this is not my mother.

My son said she played me for over 15 years and was never held accountable and when I tried she snuck around behind our backs. He said he questioned her over the past year and she lied and he knew she was up to no good and she just did not listen.

That is why I am being strong not just for me but for them. I want to be an example of how to handle things properly not like I did last year.

This is who I am and how I going to move forward.


----------



## Thorburn

I contacted an agency through my banking services. They are great. They offer free counseling and help with debt and get creditors off your back. It is through the National Foundation for credit counseling. The agency I contacted got my information via internet and I will wait to hear from them. It will take a lot of the financial pressure off of me instead of filing for bankruptcy, which is an option for the future.


----------



## Thorburn

I am going to give her the laptop back tonight. She threatened to go out and buy a new one if I don't give it back. Unfortunately I did not get it checked out. My attorney told me that I have a right to do whatever I want with it. I bought it, we both used it, etc. I talked to my son about it and he said, Dad, I would not give it back but we already have enough stuff and she is just mad that you have it and can't get on the internet. Just give it back and let her do whatever she wants with it. We can't stop her now anyway and it is just another thing she will be mad about and in the long run it does not matter. And he said, Dad, mom will spend the money and you don't need to have her spend money on a computer right now.

I was just hoping to find an email address, a log or something that may tell me what she was up to and what site or sites she was using.

Like my son said, I have enough. So tonight she will get it back. I am not spending money on a keylogger or anything else. I took it initially because I did not what I would find or what I would need. Now I have enough.


----------



## Tony55

Whoa, I missed the part that you actually have her laptop. What are you wanting to check on it? I can help you with that. Are you not able to get on it?

T


----------



## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> Whoa, I missed the part that you actually have her laptop. What are you wanting to check on it? I can help you with that. Are you not able to get on it?
> 
> T


I am the administrator of it. I have it here in the office. Just been in limbo. Can't afford to do forensics on it as my attorney was going to have it sent off. She is demanding I give it back and talking with my son he says just give it to her. We already have enough.

I was hoping to find something else, craigslist contacts, hookup sites, email anything.


----------



## vi_bride04

Forensics is un-needed I feel. There is enough IT knowledge on TAM to help you out if you want to get information off of the laptop


----------



## Thorburn

vi_bride04 said:


> Forensics is un-needed I feel. There is enough IT knowledge on TAM to help you out if you want to get information off of the laptop


It is being done now. Did not know I had free wifi here at work. Remote access is great. 

Thanks TAM.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> It is being done now. Did not know I had free wifi here at work. Remote access is great.
> 
> Thanks TAM.


You definitely need to report back what you dig up. But prepare yourself for the worst T.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I agree! Make sure you have friends, TAM or whoever ready for support. My wife had an EA and all I saw was one set of texts. It was the call logs that upset me more than the divorce talk and "I love you" I read.

I probably would have rug swept if I wouldn't have seen the volume of texts and CALLS. All I could think was, "As much as you text, WTH do you need to spend 20+ minutes on the phone with this guy?


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> You definitely need to report back what you dig up. But prepare yourself for the worst T.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nothing showed up.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> Nothing showed up.


Nothing huh? Not even deleted files? Wow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

She probably got better after the last D-day. browser history would be hard to retrieve once you delete it


----------



## warlock07

Tony, if you haven't tried it, try a system restore.


----------



## bandit.45

I thought even when you delete stuff there are always ghost files still in the hard drive and that a tech savvy IT person with the know-how can retrieve them?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> I thought even when you delete stuff there are always ghost files still in the hard drive and that a tech savvy IT person with the know-how can retrieve them?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I left it as it was the day I took it. All the internet sites were up, etc. 

Who knows, she may not have used it for this. I do know when I bought it in July 2011 she kept telling me and my youngest son that she had to set it back to factory settings several times. She did it from August through about November and kept saying there is something wrong with my computer, I keep having to set it back to factory settings. My son got suspicious and said, Dad, I never had to do that and mom has a new computer and has done it like 6 times, there is something going on. And there was.

I know she has or had a burner phone. Heard the guy asked her where she keeps it. And she said in a bag upstairs. We have dozen of bags, but I found out where she was keeping it because I found one of the VARs in there that she found and would not give to me. I now have that. She does not hide it there anymore. My son told her we know you have a phone. So maybe she remembered what she said to the OM.

To many places to hide a phone or she keeps it on her. I am not looking. Maybe she will get sloppy one day but again she is really on guard.

I know I left a note on the table the other day which had some information that I did not want her to see and man I walked by and saw it and thought, man why did I leave that there. She was not home and I thought, man I need to be more careful and I am. 

I did see a phone charger the other day that is not for her normal phone. Quick looked at it but it did not say what it was.


----------



## SomedayDig

Do a search for a program called "Recuva" by Piriform. It's free. I've used it to recover data from C drives, SD cards from cameras and some pics/screen shots from a cell phone.


----------



## Thorburn

SomedayDig said:


> Do a search for a program called "Recuva" by Piriform. It's free. I've used it to recover data from C drives, SD cards from cameras and some pics/screen shots from a cell phone.


I gave it a shot. Have to go home and hand it over. 

Did not think she would use it but one never knows. 

She has gotten better at covering her tracks.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Before you go, look for any wiping programs. The average person doesn't need these at all. Whoever is helping you would know what I am talking about.


----------



## bandit.45

Eh....

Like I said before, you don't really need to know any more than you already do. 

Any more knowledge will only serve to twist the knife in an already gaping wound. Why do it to yourself?

I know you are a guy who likes to have all the information....gather all the intelligence and recon available...

But in this case, for your own mental health, just let it go. 

You know she's decietful and has not truly loved you for a long, long time. Even if she had not been having all these affairs, wouldn't knowing she had no real regard for you be enough, in and of itself, to end the marriage? I think it would.


----------



## Affaircare

I agree with bandit. Based on what you already have and already know, she had sex with some other male person in a car for hours, she has been doing that for probably decades, and that tape is rock solid. When confronted with irrefutable evidence, she is angry and unrepentant, and clearly has some sort of long-standing issues which she is unwilling to admit to or address. There really is no need for more. 

Further, based on the rock solid evidence you do have, you have determined in your heart that she broke the marriage covenant and you are going to divorce. At this point, if the laptop had popped up some more additional evidence with which to bury her, cool--but it didn't. I also say let it go and proceed with what you have. 

Finally, again to corroborate I have been a "computer person" since the 1980's and my Dear Hubby since the 1970's. In all those decades between the two of us, I've had to go back to do a factory system restore maybe once, and he's had to go back and reset bios and do a reset a couple times due to a horrible virus. It is reasonable to say if she's had to do a restore to factory defaults many, many times that something is amiss. That is NOT typical. My educated guess would be that she did that to try to cover something. 

THUS, overall my thought would be to wipe the entire laptop clean by formatting her C:/> drive. Install Windows. Hand it over nice and clean, and it will never be of concern to you again. The End.


----------



## bandit.45

Affaircare said:


> I agree with bandit. Based on what you already have and already know, she had sex with some other male person in a car for hours, she has been doing that for probably decades, and that tape is rock solid. When confronted with irrefutable evidence, she is angry and unrepentant, and clearly has some sort of long-standing issues which she is unwilling to admit to or address. There really is no need for more.
> 
> Further, based on the rock solid evidence you do have, you have determined in your heart that she broke the marriage covenant and you are going to divorce. At this point, if the laptop had popped up some more additional evidence with which to bury her, cool--but it didn't. I also say let it go and proceed with what you have.
> 
> Finally, again to corroborate I have been a "computer person" since the 1980's and my Dear Hubby since the 1970's. In all those decades between the two of us, I've had to go back to do a factory system restore maybe once, and he's had to go back and reset bios and do a reset a couple times due to a horrible virus. It is reasonable to say if she's had to do a restore to factory defaults many, many times that something is amiss. That is NOT typical. My educated guess would be that she did that to try to cover something.
> 
> THUS, overall my thought would be to wipe the entire laptop clean by formatting her C:/> drive. Install Windows. Hand it over nice and clean, and it will never be of concern to you again. The End.


:smnotworthy::smnotworthy::smnotworthy:


----------



## Thorburn

Got home. Put the computer on the table and up to her room she went in her pajamas.


----------



## bandit.45

Now....dont ever touch that computer again.


Probably has nasty germs on it....go wash your hands in bleach water....


----------



## Tony55

warlock07 said:


> Tony, if you haven't tried it, try a system restore.


I got on Thorburns laptop while he was in a meeting, he didn't actually watch what all I went through. I left him a note on the desktop with some of the details.

Here's the bottom-line.

The internet history was all in place, not deleted, I went all the way back to Sept 2012, nothing other than normal internet activity. No searches for how to shoot a husband, nothing about dating, no escort sites, no visits to email accounts (yahoo, gmail, etc) except for one and that was a joint email account. There are 3 browsers, only one was in actual use. Cookies were all still there, nothing suspicious.

No Messenger activity, Skype activity, nothing of that nature.

I looked through the entire hard drive, hidden folders, etc, nothing.

System restore, while not a bad idea, wouldn't turn up anything new simply because nothing was deleted insofar as internet history since last summer.

Could I have retrieved deleted files? Yes, but that would have required hours scanning 500+ gigabytes (I had an hour). And based on what I saw, I doubt very seriously if that would have turned up anything.

This is definitely not a computer used for dating, or for that matter, used for looking at porn, nothing like that, that I'm certain of. And believe me, I was sure I would find something when I got on it, I was surprised, it's probably the most boring computer I've went through.

Let me be fair to his wife for a minute (not that I doubt what she's done, I know for a fact what she's done because I've been processing this damned wind tunnel recording through every sound tool I have for the past week), but I have to mention this. It actually hurt my feelings going through months of internet history, it got to me because I saw nothing but that boring day to day family kind of internet browsing that regular people do, shopping, airlines, pet stuff, news, even questions about religion, and it kind of broke my heart, it made Thorburn and his wife more real to me, and it was just sad. If I was judging this woman based on her internet activity, I'd say she was a good woman, and it's unnerving to put the two together, car woman and internet surfing woman, one seemingly very normal, the other so far out there as to be every man's worse nightmare. I don't know, it's just sad.

Anyway, the laptops clean, Mrs Thorburn is guilty as hell (unless he doesn't know his own wife's voice). Oh, and the guy in the recording is younger than 35, in fact, I think 30 or below. And I don't think she knew him very well.

Sorry Thorburn, this sucks, we've all been through it, the more everyone here knows, the better they can help you.

One vet to another (although I take my hat off to your 30+ years, thank you for you're service), stay the course, you're the good guy, don't lose your temper, don't drink, focus on what's ahead.

T


----------



## bandit.45

Good job Tony.

Man that is creepy. She's like Jekyl and Hyde.


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn, I never read through your other threads (at least not that I remember), but this evening I poked around and read through them. I read in one that your wife fell in love online real easy and even got caught in an affair with a 29 year old guy. Knowing this, it makes the car thing with what sounded like a young guy even more plausible.

But that's not why I'm posting the message. I went through your old posts to find out exactly why your wife takes chemo. I found it, arthritis. So let me ask you this, was your wife on this chemo regimen the first time she had affairs in 2000?

I'm trying to see if there's some kind of connection between her behavior and chemo, that side effect called "chemo brain"
_Neurological Effects
Some people experience what they call "chemo brain," according to the American Cancer Society. This may include lapses in memory, trouble focusing or concentrating on things, difficulty multi-tasking, trouble remembering words or details, and generally feeling like you have cloudy thinking. Health professionals generally call this "mild cognitive impairment." The causes of this are not known, and for some people, it lessens over time. Up to 70 percent of people who receive chemotherapy will experience "chemo brain" according to Cancer.org.​_Could this possibly cause her behavior? Or did it start before she ever got on chemo?

I'm just trying to figure out this apparent dual personalities.

T


----------



## Granny7

Tony55 said:


> I got on Thorburns laptop while he was in a meeting, he didn't actually watch what all I went through. I left him a note on the desktop with some of the details.
> 
> Here's the bottom-line.
> 
> The internet history was all in place, not deleted, I went all the way back to Sept 2012, nothing other than normal internet activity. No searches for how to shoot a husband, nothing about dating, no escort sites, no visits to email accounts (yahoo, gmail, etc) except for one and that was a joint email account. There are 3 browsers, only one was in actual use. Cookies were all still there, nothing suspicious.
> 
> No Messenger activity, Skype activity, nothing of that nature.
> 
> I looked through the entire hard drive, hidden folders, etc, nothing.
> 
> System restore, while not a bad idea, wouldn't turn up anything new simply because nothing was deleted insofar as internet history since last summer.
> 
> Could I have retrieved deleted files? Yes, but that would have required hours scanning 500+ gigabytes (I had an hour). And based on what I saw, I doubt very seriously if that would have turned up anything.
> 
> This is definitely not a computer used for dating, or for that matter, used for looking at porn, nothing like that, that I'm certain of. And believe me, I was sure I would find something when I got on it, I was surprised, it's probably the most boring computer I've went through.
> 
> Let me be fair to his wife for a minute (not that I doubt what she's done, I know for a fact what she's done because I've been processing this damned wind tunnel recording through every sound tool I have for the past week), but I have to mention this. It actually hurt my feelings going through months of internet history, it got to me because I saw nothing but that boring day to day family kind of internet browsing that regular people do, shopping, airlines, pet stuff, news, even questions about religion, and it kind of broke my heart, it made Thorburn and his wife more real to me, and it was just sad. If I was judging this woman based on her internet activity, I'd say she was a good woman, and it's unnerving to put the two together, car woman and internet surfing woman, one seemingly very normal, the other so far out there as to be every man's worse nightmare. I don't know, it's just sad.
> 
> Anyway, the laptops clean, Mrs Thorburn is guilty as hell (unless he doesn't know his own wife's voice). Oh, and the guy in the recording is younger than 35, in fact, I think 30 or below. And I don't think she knew him very well.
> 
> Sorry Thorburn, this sucks, we've all been through it, the more everyone here knows, the better they can help you.
> 
> One vet to another (although I take my hat off to your 30+ years, thank you for you're service), stay the course, you're the good guy, don't lose your temper, don't drink, focus on what's ahead.
> 
> T


Tony55,
It sounds like you did a lot and you are to be commended for it. I can understand how it would upset you. I wish I had been on the computer today. I'm sure you know everything you are doing. My cheating husband is also an expert on repairing, retrieving missing and hidden things from computer's. He gets paid to do these things and I wonder if he could have given you any more suggestions that would have helped you. 

It makes me sad for thorburn, that he got nothing to pin on here. Your a good man for doing all this, but that's what friends do. It's just sad that she's got the computer back, it kill's me that she has it period. She doesn't deserve it!

Granny7


----------



## Mike11

Tony55 said:


> Thorburn, I never read through your other threads (at least not that I remember), but this evening I poked around and read through them. I read in one that your wife fell in love online real easy and even got caught in an affair with a 29 year old guy. Knowing this, it makes the car thing with what sounded like a young guy even more plausible.
> 
> But that's not why I'm posting the message. I went through your old posts to find out exactly why your wife takes chemo. I found it, arthritis. So let me ask you this, was your wife on this chemo regimen the first time she had affairs in 2000?
> 
> I'm trying to see if there's some kind of connection between her behavior and chemo, that side effect called "chemo brain"
> _Neurological Effects
> Some people experience what they call "chemo brain," according to the American Cancer Society. This may include lapses in memory, trouble focusing or concentrating on things, difficulty multi-tasking, trouble remembering words or details, and generally feeling like you have cloudy thinking. Health professionals generally call this "mild cognitive impairment." The causes of this are not known, and for some people, it lessens over time. Up to 70 percent of people who receive chemotherapy will experience "chemo brain" according to Cancer.org.​_Could this possibly cause her behavior? Or did it start before she ever got on chemo?
> 
> I'm just trying to figure out this apparent dual personalities.
> 
> T


Thorburn 

That is another angle that you should explore, What Tony mentioned above is very well known and I can attest to that personally, I have seen personality changes to the extreme from these chemo meds to the effect of a full "mr jekyll and mr hyde" type of changes, and although it does not reduce the severity of what your wife had done, it may offer some explanation to possible reasons for it, I have seen people changing from normal human being to a raving bats*it mean lunatic and back from chemo side effects without even remembering what they have done, I am not saying this is the case here but I would definitely look at the meds she is taking and investigate the possible side effects 

one more clue to this would be her strong denial or acknowledgement that she has done anything wrong in face of damning evidence, again I am not saying this is the case here with certainty but when My Son was on heavy Chemo ****tail he would exhibit extreme personality changes, sometimes for hours at the time, would eventually snap out, and would not remember a thing of what he had done, luckily for us he was never a danger to himself or others when he went trough these episodes but never the less these were frightening to experience, these meds alter brain chemistry and no body can predict how people can react to these 

Just another angle to explore


----------



## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> Thorburn, I never read through your other threads (at least not that I remember), but this evening I poked around and read through them. I read in one that your wife fell in love online real easy and even got caught in an affair with a 29 year old guy. Knowing this, it makes the car thing with what sounded like a young guy even more plausible.
> 
> But that's not why I'm posting the message. I went through your old posts to find out exactly why your wife takes chemo. I found it, arthritis. So let me ask you this, was your wife on this chemo regimen the first time she had affairs in 2000?
> 
> I'm trying to see if there's some kind of connection between her behavior and chemo, that side effect called "chemo brain"
> _Neurological Effects
> Some people experience what they call "chemo brain," according to the American Cancer Society. This may include lapses in memory, trouble focusing or concentrating on things, difficulty multi-tasking, trouble remembering words or details, and generally feeling like you have cloudy thinking. Health professionals generally call this "mild cognitive impairment." The causes of this are not known, and for some people, it lessens over time. Up to 70 percent of people who receive chemotherapy will experience "chemo brain" according to Cancer.org.​_Could this possibly cause her behavior? Or did it start before she ever got on chemo?
> 
> I'm just trying to figure out this apparent dual personalities.
> 
> T


No. She started treatment about 5 years ago. She did have a brain injury around 1995 when she and my two boys were in a car accident, a guy ran through a stop sign. Caused a nerve injury that affected her eye sight and that had to be corrected. they did eye surgery to trick the brain into aligning her one eye correctly. 

So it is possible that this traumatic brain injury caused this.


----------



## Thorburn

I listened to more of the recording. She is discussing the time in 1999 that she had an A. She said, after my dad found out the truth, (These are not exact quotes) but she is telling the OM that the guy wanted to "set her up" and she said, whoa or wait a minute I am not going to break up the family. 

So she is telling the OM about her A's. Stuff she never told me, stuff she never came clean to me and told me. She is talking about it so openly to this dude, like it was no big deal. 

Like Tony said, she is one person to her family, innocent, fun, nice, and a complete nymphomaniac in her car.

If any of you met her and did not know the history you would like her. Think she is a good mother, wife, etc. You would be shocked to know her secret life.

She has been doing this in the car since 2011. That is when she made the "bed" in the back and said it was for the dog. About three thick quilts or blankets that cover the back of the Jeep grand Cherokee. 

My son said, after she was caught she never got rid of the bed. I kept telling my wife take the blankets out. She would wash them and put them back and said they are for the dog.


----------



## Thorburn

Gotta run. Have to drive through the city to get to work. Have a good case load today and tomorrow I am taking the day off. Seeing my primary physician and then my psychiatrist. Might go home to Lancaster and stay with my son Friday night and part of Saturday. Maybe get my breaks done.

My friend from the hospital where I use to work called me last night. He is a Vietnam Veteran, and works as an RN and social worker. I helped him with his son when his son joined the Army and got into trouble. Bob came to me and said I need help. I knew what to do and Bob did it. Went down to the base, talked to the commander and everything worked out very well. He told me last night that he will help me with money. I said, hold on to it, and when I need it I will like you to send it to my son to manage it.


----------



## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> I listened to more of the recording. She is discussing the time in 1999 that she had an A. She said, after my dad found out the truth, (These are not exact quotes) but she is telling the OM that the guy wanted to "set her up" and she said, whoa or wait a minute I am not going to break up the family.
> 
> So she is telling the OM about her A's. Stuff she never told me, stuff she never came clean to me and told me. She is talking about it so openly to this dude, like it was no big deal.
> 
> Like Tony said, she is one person to her family, innocent, fun, nice, and a complete nymphomaniac in her car.
> 
> If any of you met her and did not know the history you would like her. Think she is a good mother, wife, etc. You would be shocked to know her secret life.
> 
> She has been doing this in the car since 2011. That is when she made the "bed" in the back and said it was for the dog. About three thick quilts or blankets that cover the back of the Jeep grand Cherokee.
> 
> My son said, after she was caught she never got rid of the bed. I kept telling my wife take the blankets out. She would wash them and put them back and said they are for the dog.


I've been reading about the 'chemo brain' stuff that Tony refered to. From what you say, she has no trouble recalling events from 1999 on the VAR. Doesn't sound to me that it would fit the poor cognitive function of chemo or brain injury from the car smash. Also, chemo for arthritis is not the same as for cancer treatment. Just thought I'd mention it.


----------



## Thorburn

When I was in Iraq in 2009 my WS had two episodes of almost total breakdown. Her sister who she was not getting alone with at the time took her to the E.R. My wife was saying she would go up to people at stores and say I know you from somewhere only to find out they had nothing in common. She said it was embarrasing. She told me she had memory issues. 

The other time we were chatting online and she was not answering my questions and I told her to call a Doctor and she did and he had her go to the E.R. Same thing.

My sons told me that the one time they took her she was walking around in the living room in a daze and did not know where she was. 

Could have been stress due to me being in combat. 

After I came home she kept saying she has memory issues and would forget things.

I always thought this was an act. During arguments last year she had no problem remembering things. And always said I don't remember when I asked her for information about her and the OM. When they met, etc. i knew they met 6 times and she says 4. I showed her the phone records and locations of where she was and she would say I don't remember or I would tell you. 

My older BIL and I thought and I told her, you are hiding things, just tell me.

She used her so called memory issues to snow me and I kept telling her to knock it off.

When she is talking to the OM on the recording she remembers everything. Things she said she did not remember.

Tony got a look at my wife by looking at the computer and listening to the recording.

What an act.

Going to friends house tonight for dinner.

Tomorrow I am going to two medical appointments, might meet with a local pastor, and then I will spend the night with my son in another town, and most of Saturday. We are going to do my brakes and chill.


----------



## Mike11

Thorburn said:


> When I was in Iraq in 2009 my WS had two episodes of almost total breakdown. Her sister who she was not getting alone with at the time took her to the E.R. My wife was saying she would go up to people at stores and say I know you from somewhere only to find out they had nothing in common. She said it was embarrasing. She told me she had memory issues.
> 
> The other time we were chatting online and she was not answering my questions and I told her to call a Doctor and she did and he had her go to the E.R. Same thing.
> 
> My sons told me that the one time they took her she was walking around in the living room in a daze and did not know where she was.
> 
> Could have been stress due to me being in combat.
> 
> After I came home she kept saying she has memory issues and would forget things.
> 
> I always thought this was an act. During arguments last year she had no problem remembering things. And always said I don't remember when I asked her for information about her and the OM. When they met, etc. i knew they met 6 times and she says 4. I showed her the phone records and locations of where she was and she would say I don't remember or I would tell you.
> 
> My older BIL and I thought and I told her, you are hiding things, just tell me.
> 
> She used her so called memory issues to snow me and I kept telling her to knock it off.
> 
> When she is talking to the OM on the recording she remembers everything. Things she said she did not remember.
> 
> Tony got a look at my wife by looking at the computer and listening to the recording.
> 
> What an act.
> 
> Going to friends house tonight for dinner.
> 
> Tomorrow I am going to two medical appointments, might meet with a local pastor, and then I will spend the night with my son in another town, and most of Saturday. We are going to do my brakes and chill.


Thorburn 

What you are describing is typical Brain Injury, I have it at home I know these very very well

is there a way that I can call you or talk to you on the phone ?


----------



## gbonham77

brain injury? i dont think so .. but who knows she tried to injured her brain by living a double life


----------



## Thorburn

gbonham77 said:


> brain injury? i dont think so .. but who knows she tried to injured her brain by living a double life


Man, I am looking this stuff up on TBI and her behaviors could be a result of that. Her fourth optive nerve was damaged and she saw stars, halo's, etc, for over a year. 

Around 1992 or 1995 she was t-boned then her car went headlong into a fire hydrant, the car was a small Eagle Summit GT. The doctor said her brain was slammed sideways by the impact of the car and then front to back from the impact of the fire hydrant. Broke a rib, broke her wrist from holding onto the gear shift, she had a five speed. Neck injuries, concussion.

My boys were in the back and were around 8 years old or so and only had slight bruising from the seat belts. I was away with the Army and her dad came over right away as he lived a few miles from the accident scene. Took me days to get home.

Other then her eye sight that we had to wait a year to have the surgery done by a special Neurologist. He did not do anything to the brain but readjusted the eye muscle in one eye. She was seeing double in a weird way, the double images were not lined up. She still has this when she looks to the left.


----------



## Shaggy

I'm wonder just what kind of sick cheater reviews her cheating history with the scumbag she is in the car for hours making out with.

Also does she describe her 2011 affair with this guy? If it was the same OM she would talk differently about it to him wouldn't she?

Looking back you should have gotten rid of her sexUV 

You should even now retrieve the blankets from it and burn them.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> I'm wonder just what kind of sick cheater reviews her cheating history with the scumbag she is in the car for hours making out with.
> 
> Also does she describe her 2011 affair with this guy? If it was the same OM she would talk differently about it to him wouldn't she?
> 
> Looking back you should have gotten rid of her sexUV
> 
> You should even now retrieve the blankets from it and burn them.


i have not listened to the majority of the recording. I skipped a lot. i know they had sex three times at least. She does mention her A in 2011 but that conversation is vague. Like what was said earlier as you listen to the OM this is not the same one from 2011, he does not know enough about me and asks questions about the age of my mother etc. You can tell he is not very interested in what my WS is saying. It is a lot of her talking and conplaiming about me. I have not had the strength to sit and listen to most of it. When I do there are times I have to keep going back to listen and listen again. My player on my computer is not easy to operate as far as sliding the button back to the spot I want to listen to again. 

Maybe I will do this this weekend. I don't have the best headphones but I did find a decent pair that are pretty good. 

My WS has the Red Hot Chilli Pepper's CD (the one I just bought her a few months ago) playing almost the entire time. There are times the voices are crystal clear and other times the mucsic and voices blend and you can't make out the conversation.

I do know that the OM might live close to where our other home is because she mentions that she will be "back here" tomorrow for her chemo. And mentions going through a town not far from where the other OM from 2011 lived. That is why I suspected him. But listening to the recording it is not him. My WS was too familiar with him.


----------



## Jasel

Has anyone else heard the recording besides you??


----------



## turnera

Shaggy said:


> I'm wonder just what kind of sick cheater reviews her cheating history with the scumbag she is in the car for hours making out with.


The kind who has a 'purely business' relationship with said scumbags.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> I'm wonder just what kind of sick cheater reviews her cheating history with the scumbag she is in the car for hours making out with.
> 
> Also does she describe her 2011 affair with this guy? If it was the same OM she would talk differently about it to him wouldn't she?
> 
> Looking back you should have gotten rid of her sexUV
> 
> You should even now retrieve the blankets from it and burn them.


I actually thought about paying one of the hoods that I see on the street a few hundred to pour diesel fuel on her car and set it on fire. But I thought they would just take the money and run. And in my neighborhood it would not work very well, too many eyes, neighbors look out for one another and I have a police officer who lives across the street.

I told my WS to get rid of the blankets. The one she used that Wendesday was the one I had the entire time (the only one I had) in Iraq. I told her to get rid of it and all she did was hide it in my son's room. I have it. That blanket was special to both of us. We use to joke about it that I never washed it. It was a big zebra pattern blanket. 

I do plan on burning it.


----------



## Thorburn

Jasel said:


> Has anyone else heard the recording besides you??


I sent a few minutes of where my wife talks about "Backdoor", anal, and her moaning, to my youngest son. He said, dad the family says you are lying. Once he heard that he knew it was his mother.

Two others on TAM have it and did some editing to it. It came out cleaner and clearer. It would be nice if you could take the music out but I am sure that type of editing requires expensive equipment. 

I don't really need anything more but it would be nice to hear the conversations that you can't make out to see if I could get a name, or address.


----------



## turnera

Who owns the car? Sell it.


----------



## WTHiswrong

Must be hard as hell listening to that crap, even though u can make some out, u still know what's going on. Don't know how u do it.


----------



## alte Dame

To me your W sounds like someone with sociopathic tendencies. Both her promiscuity and the anger she displays when her mask is ripped off are characteristic - also, the fact that the antisocial behavior continues after she is caught.


----------



## turnera

That's what I was thinking, too.


----------



## bandit.45

T why is your wife so attractive to young men? Is she still that hot looking for her age? I don't see how a 52 year old arthritic pulls them in like she does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jasel

bandit.45 said:


> T why is your wife so attractive to young men? Is she still that hot looking for her age? I don't see how a 52 year old arthritic pulls them in like she does.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are a lot of men out there who will **** anyone who is willing or capable of spreading their legs. They don't even have to be attracted to her.


----------



## bandit.45

Jasel said:


> There are a lot of men out there who will **** anyone who is willing or capable of spreading their legs. They don't even have to be attracted to her.


I agree but there's got to be more to it than that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> T why is your wife so attractive to young men? Is she still that hot looking for her age? I don't see how a 52 year old arthritic pulls them in like she does.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is fairly hot. At my retirement from the Army National Guard 2 years ago the waitress came up to my wife in front of my son, me and senior officers and said, "You are a MILF". My wife said she did not know what that was. The one Colonel said man, Mac, that was rude.

One complaint I have had also was the clothes she wears. She got a pair of spandex pants several weeks ago and I said oh you got new night ware ( I was serious) and she no these are my new work pants. I mean they were like skin tight yoga pants. I said no way, that is inappropriate and she said to me, it is OK they are comfortable. Then I saw there were times she would not wear underpants.

When she left me on Wednsday night after I played part of the recording and she said I am tired of you accusing me she went to her sister's house and spent the night. Her sister has had a new Christian experience but is a mental mess after the death of her husband last year. She told her brothers that my WS was dressed like a "slu*" with skin tight spandex pants.

She told me last year that she has a problem with flirting with men in public with her eyes. 

She has told her brother that Mac does not lilke the clothes I wear. Her older brother said he has mentioned it to the family and they did not get his point. He said, she dresses like a high school girl trying to get the boys. I think they see it now.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Who owns the car? Sell it.


My attorney said not to do that. Don't push her too hard. I could shut off her phone, cut the computer off, etc. My attorney says I have a legal right to do that since the accounts are in my name but he recommended that I don't do it and make her more angry.

At least tonight I will have a nice dinner with friends. Will get home late.

I will get up tomorrow like I am going to work, go to my medical appointments and head to my other home and spend part of the weekend with my son.

My wife has gotten some results from her refishing ad on CL and she told one person (on our shared email) that she can pick up the tables on Friday. I won't be around if she is counting on me to use the truck. She can load them on the jeep and good luck, with her bad arm, wrist etc it is hard for her to do that kind of lifting. And how she will get them down in the basement will be another trick. 

I suspect she will approach me at some point to help her or maybe she won't. Don't care.


----------



## Numb-badger

Wishing you strength man


----------



## Jonesey

Jasel said:


> There are a lot of men out there who will **** anyone who is willing or capable of spreading their legs. They don't even have to be attracted to her.



In the year 2013 not all 52 year old women look´s like grandma.
Just sayin.. And beside´s who said OM is a prytty boy, him self?


----------



## Tony55

I'm still working on cleaning up the recording, I have to do it in segments, it's 4 hours and 30 minutes long.

Most of the recording sounds like the noise you would hear if you stuck your head out of the window at 70 mph, and/or, revving a V8 with custom exhaust.


It seems it took her about 90 minutes to get where she was going.
The activity (where it's obvious someone is with her) lasts about 80 minutes.
And then there's about 90 minutes of driving again.
2/3 of the recording near impossible to hear anything but engine sounds. She drives fast, by the way.

I have some free time this evening, I'm going to run it through a different noise reduction filter and see what I get.

Does a 90 minute drive ring any bells for you Thorburn?

Thorburn, I wasn't aware of your less than perfect audio playback capabilities. I'm going to send you smaller clips and label them with a 1, 2, or 3 to designating whether it came from the drive out, the parking, or the drive back. I'll only send clips that have something discernible.

_(By the way, I'm posting this in the open because Thorburn and I have PM'd very little. I personally prefer to post in the open because you never know what can help others, and to take too much private kind of defeats the purpose of a forum. And of course, Thorburn can PM me anytime he doesn't feel comfortable discussing any particular point.)_

And, why am I doing this? Because I think after this much time in a marriage, and with the extenuating circumstances, chemo, brain/eye nerve treatment, etc. Thorburn deserves to work with as much information as possible, and even though his wife is guilty of obvious infidelity, I think it only hurts him more if he imagines her demeanor worse than it actually was (remember I said demeanor, not behavior, so don't blast me).

The woman I hear in the recording is a little anxious, kind of passive, definitely not dominating, demanding, she isn't talking the way you would imagine a prostitute or sl*t would talk (I'm just being fair here). She talk's a lot, and it's about completely bland things such as ice coffee, her clothes, someone on a ventilator, things they guy doesn't care anything about. To me she sounds a little pitiful to be honest.

T


----------



## illwill

Been reading this for awhile, and I must say you are handling this well-and seem to be learning a lot of hard lessons to take into your next relationship.


----------



## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> I'm still working on cleaning up the recording, I have to do it in segments, it's 4 hours and 30 minutes long.
> 
> Most of the recording sounds like the noise you would hear if you stuck your head out of the window at 70 mph, and/or, revving a V8 with custom exhaust.
> 
> 
> It seems it took her about 90 minutes to get where she was going.
> The activity (where it's obvious someone is with her) lasts about 80 minutes.
> And then there's about 90 minutes of driving again.
> 2/3 of the recording near impossible to hear anything but engine sounds. She drives fast, by the way.
> 
> I have some free time this evening, I'm going to run it through a different noise reduction filter and see what I get.
> 
> Does a 90 minute drive ring any bells for you Thorburn?
> 
> Thorburn, I wasn't aware of your less than perfect audio playback capabilities. I'm going to send you smaller clips and label them with a 1, 2, or 3 to designating whether it came from the drive out, the parking, or the drive back. I'll only send clips that have something discernible.
> 
> _(By the way, I'm posting this in the open because Thorburn and I have PM'd very little. I personally prefer to post in the open because you never know what can help others, and to take too much private kind of defeats the purpose of a forum. And of course, Thorburn can PM me anytime he doesn't feel comfortable discussing any particular point.)_
> 
> And, why am I doing this? Because I think after this much time in a marriage, and with the extenuating circumstances, chemo, brain/eye nerve treatment, etc. Thorburn deserves to work with as much information as possible, and even though his wife is guilty of obvious infidelity, I think it only hurts him more if he imagines her demeanor worse than it actually was (remember I said demeanor, not behavior, so don't blast me).
> 
> The woman I hear in the recording is a little anxious, kind of passive, definitely not dominating, demanding, she isn't talking the way you would imagine a prostitute or sl*t would talk (I'm just being fair here). She talk's a lot, and it's about completely bland things such as ice coffee, her clothes, someone on a ventilator, things they guy doesn't care anything about. To me she sounds a little pitiful to be honest.
> 
> T


She drives very fast. Just a got a speeding tickets and 5 points on her record about a month ago. She mentions one town that she drove through to the OM. It takes about 50 minutes or so to get there. On a good day it takes about 90 minutes to get to our other home, but that is rare and you have to go 80 MPS most of the way. i did it once late at night. She mentions that she has to come back here tomorrow for treatment. So I am assuming that it is somewhere near our other home. 

She does seems nervous and does not talk "slu**y" But I do hear three times where they are doing the deed. With the backdoor reference it is anal. I can tell that she is not having normal sex at that time, saying OMG, etc. That is not how she responds to normal intercourse and I know her. 

Because I know the references what she says is clearer to me when I understand what she is saying.

I am trying to find out where she said there are other guys trying to hook up with her or something along those lines. I thought I heard it and now can't find it. There is lots of noise and it takes a while between clear conversations.


----------



## Thorburn

I know at one point she says something like oh, there's your house or is that your house. I am trying to figure out what the GPS is saying as well to kind of get the location. 

I would like to bust the OM.


----------



## Thorburn

At least work is going very well. When ever a Veteran stops coming for counseling we close the case and we send out a survey. The survey is an evaluation of the counseling they received. To date I have not received one negative comment. Today I received a survey and my boss says read this and tell me what you think. I got all outstandings and the person wrote that Mac was "Right on Target". My boss said, Mac, you are doing a great job here. He knows what I am going through.

Then on top of it, two Vets that stopped coming made appointments to start coming back again. It is great when they ask to see me personnally, they can switch at any time, yet they never have. I have Veterans that see me weekly or bi-weekly since the day I started over 1 1/2 ago. I only ever had one bad egg who hated me but he hated everyone. 

My clients range from just wanting information for benefits to bi-polar, PTSD and other severe mental disorders. 

Our main focus is on Vets that served in combat. I have been there and can relate. I challenge them. Don't put up with them sleeping all day, I push them to get involved in life as much as they are able. 

So I had a good day here at work.

Now I am going to have dinner with some friends. Talk about what is going on in my life. Funny, my WS and I just had them over a few weeks ago. My WS had the pewter out and made Brunswick stew, just like we use to get in Williamsburg. 

They don't know my WS well, met her a few times, thought she was nice.

Now they are reaching out to me. 

My son said go have fun tonight but don't drink and drive. Stay there is you had too much and you get crazy. I laughed and said I am not getting crazy tonight. Have a little wine and chill.


----------



## Shaggy

It do hope you have removed the bed from her vehicle.

You may have had better results if you has located the var in the back.


----------



## bandit.45

Ughhh. Reading all this makes my bile rise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

There is one thing that seems glaringly obvious and make me personally feel a little bad: there is clearly much more to this story because there is such a HUGE disconnect between "the woman she is" and "the way she behaves". Seriously there are little hairs on the back of my neck that almost wonder about split personality because they are so incongruous. 

I mean "the woman I am" is a peaceful, calm, mellow, pretty laid back person and the day I found my exH was cheating, I was angry and screamed and yelled, and that's not my usual personality. There's a reason they call it temporary insanity and crimes of passion. But this is different. It's almost like there is one personality who is your wife and she's really not trying to lie or deceive you...and there is this entirely different personality who looks men up off the internet and has sex in the back of her car! They are SOOOOOOOO compartmentalized it's almost spooky. 

Anyway Thorburn, I think you have been proceeding very admirably. Just keep on keeping on!


----------



## Thorburn

Affaircare said:


> There is one thing that seems glaringly obvious and make me personally feel a little bad: there is clearly much more to this story because there is such a HUGE disconnect between "the woman she is" and "the way she behaves". Seriously there are little hairs on the back of my neck that almost wonder about split personality because they are so incongruous.
> 
> I mean "the woman I am" is a peaceful, calm, mellow, pretty laid back person and the day I found my exH was cheating, I was angry and screamed and yelled, and that's not my usual personality. There's a reason they call it temporary insanity and crimes of passion. But this is different. It's almost like there is one personality who is your wife and she's really not trying to lie or deceive you...and there is this entirely different personality who looks men up off the internet and has sex in the back of her car! They are SOOOOOOOO compartmentalized it's almost spooky.
> 
> Anyway Thorburn, I think you have been proceeding very admirably. Just keep on keeping on!



This is what my oldest BIL was saying to me. She lives this one life, loving caring wife, sister, mother, etc then this other woman. Don't enter this compartment. Stay away. I told him she lets these OM into this area, shares it almost like she is bragging, like Yea the guy I had the A with in 1999 said he would set me up and she said, Whoa, wait a minute, I am not breaking up my family over this. 

My BIL gets it but like me does not understands it. 

I vented to my son tonight. He said where is mom? I said, she lied to us for over 15 years. I don't get it. I said I gave your mom my whole life. I loved her. And we find out she is having anal, etc with a young dude in the back of her car at age 52. It is just plain nuts.

I feel stuck, yet I am moving forward. Feel like, I want her in bed with me, to cuddle, but you know I asked for that in the last year and she did not give it to me. We use to cuddle all the time, morning, night time, during the night. I almost begged my wife to cuddle with me during the last year. I said I needed it and she rarely did it and when she did it was reluctant on her part. It was weird. I told her I needed more affection like we use to have and she said, you are just being too sensitive or paranoid. 

No, she changed. The sex changed. I said where is the passion. She said it is there. I said no it is not. I said it all changed in 2010 when you got involved with the internet guy and it never came back.

Like I said before, it just got weird. 

Like she was half there. And apparently that was and is the case.

To all here on TAM. I gave my WS everything I could give her. Yes I had my faults, but I am a decent and pretty good guy. Never cheated. She was my sunrise and my sunset. The reason I did what I did.

My BIL told me not to have a pity party. I am not. But almost 30 years with half of them lies it is just unbelievable.

My son said she lied to him for over 15 years.

Now it all seems a waste and a sham. Broken dreams.

I know I am not to blame and I don't get it.

TBI - maybe, it makes sense.

Pathology-maybe that too makes sense

Mental illness- see above

Addiction- see above.

Does not matter in the end for it is the behavior, the disrespect, the ruination of a marriage and a family that matters to me.

When WS's realize that even half the time, effort, money, etc that they spent on others could have been focused on their mate, they would realize that they would have had a fantastic marriage.


----------



## LookingForTheSun

Thorburn - you are handling all of this with class and as a real soldier would. Hugs to you.


----------



## turnera

My dad had a brain tumor once, and he completely turned into a different person. Once it was removed, he was back to his old self.

Also, I've seen women in their 40s completely change simply because of age. they grow up being told who they were supposed to be (wife, mother) and put their all into doing it, without stopping to think if it's really what they wanted. And then once the kids age out, they get to sit back and say, hey, wait a minute, THIS isn't what I would have chosen! And then they go look for it cos now they can.


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn, here are some bits of audible information that might be of interest:

She asks the OM how his mother is doing.
She at one point says, "your wife", in a sentence I couldn't fully understand.
She mentions someone played bass in a band (I got the impression she was talking about a previous OM).
He mentions the name Brandon in a way that one would presume she knew who he was talking about.

T


----------



## warlock07

Thorburn, is she still in denial about her affair or are you just disengaging from her ?


----------



## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> Thorburn, here are some bits of audible information that might be of interest:
> 
> She asks the OM how his mother is doing.
> She at one point says, "your wife", in a sentence I couldn't fully understand.
> She mentions someone played bass in a band (I got the impression she was talking about a previous OM).
> He mentions the name Brandon in a way that one would presume she knew who he was talking about.
> 
> T


Did not hear most of it yet. The bass player is where she is talking about my son and one of his new roommates. That I did hear.

Did not hear Wife or Brandon but like I said I have not listened to most of it. Just wears me out. 

I plan to go over it today and tomorrow more.

Maybe just listen to the whole thing and write down the times where you can make out the conversations. When I skip through it, I missed a lot.

It is tough to listen.


----------



## Thorburn

warlock07 said:


> Thorburn, is she still in denial about her affair or are you just disengaging from her ?


Not in denial, I am in shock and disbelief. I see it all now, where she did not really care for me. Yet there were moments where she was all into the marriage. Looking back at the last year it is really strange. I got frustrated looking for a house and living in an apartment during the week, told her I am done, burned out. She stepped up and spent days and hours on the internet looking for houses. That was not fake. 

I also see times where she basically told me she was fooling around. Like the times she said I am making new friends at work, or the night I confronted her with the recording. She said, I talk to a lot of people, I have friends here too. Well, all her "friends" where she got fired she has not talked to them. One or two of the girls she worked with contacted her and she sent them a text and that was it. Believe me she had no friends there. It was an OM or OM's. When she said, "I am making new friends, or I talk to a lot of people:, That may have been the only true thing she said to me and it was code for I am fooling around and I have a new lover or new lovers.

I am disengaging.


----------



## bandit.45

Is she still moping around angry? Has her demeanor changed at all the last couple of days?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ing

Hey T.
This is quiet similar to what happened with me. A long, long relationship and then she was gone. She fake attempted R [8 times] but really her heart was not in it. Her mind said. " I want my family" and that is true. The thing is she wanted all the things she wanted, but she didn't want me and hadn't wanted me for a very long time. I had accepted that. I am so sorry T but I thinking your best course of action is to really disengage. Easy to say.
It took me a long time. It was almost 18 months from separation to stop finding reasons to talk. Not about R necessarily, just anything was better than nothing for both of us. When you have spent so long together, regardless of what you find out, it's going to be hard to really separate especially since you have kids.
On New Years Eve last year I found myself saying words to the woman I had loved for my entire adult life. I was not angry. Just tired of her words. Tired of her wringing her hands. Tired of the drama. Tired. Just bone tired.
" Never speak to me again"

I have not spoken three words to her since. Not needed to talk about the kids or anything really. 
I suppose I will have to talk to her at some point and, if I am honest, just hearing her voice will be a relief. It is so hard to forget them when they have been in your life so long. 

The only advice I an offer is to stay here and know that there are people here who do understand the deep loss you have experienced and understand that it will take a long time to recover. There is plenty of time to have a new life and I feel tha I at least have a chance at one now. I am flat broke and struggling to keep it together, but I am. day to day and week to week. You will too.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Is she still moping around angry? Has her demeanor changed at all the last couple of days?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. totally pis*ed off.

I am at our other home tonight chilling with my son


my special needs son called me and was angry. going to smash his phone.

Told me not to say anything but his mother told him if I stop controlling her she will work the marriage out.

Of course I just tried to get him to calm down. Told him to love his mother. I do not discuss anything about his mother with him. He has the mind of a 12 year old.

My younger son who I am hanging out with said, yea right dad, she just wants to do her thing and have you leave her alone.

My special needs son said Mom will not take him anywhere, she says she is sick. Worked most of the day is what my son said. 

She never worked on Fridays but I did see where she applied for a job. So who knows.


----------



## bandit.45

Who cares? 

This needs to be your new attitude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Have a good time this weekend T. Try to relax and get some rest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:



> She never worked on Fridays but I did see where she applied for a job.


And I think she just might be getting the message that you are done with the marriage.

Now let's see if she goes through with it and really takes a full time job.

CHill out real good this weekend. The recording can wait.


----------



## Thorburn

happyman64 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> 
> And I think she just might be getting the message that you are done with the marriage.
> 
> Now let's see if she goes through with it and really takes a full time job.
> 
> CHill out real good this weekend. The recording can wait.


Chilling out with my sons and his roommates Having a good time


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Who cares?
> 
> This needs to be your new attitude.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is my attitude. Saw my primary doctor and psychiatrist today and they told me to move on.

Almost 30 freaken years of marriage. 

She was the love of my life.


----------



## Granny7

Thorburn said:


> It is my attitude. Saw my primary doctor and psychiatrist today and they told me to move on.
> 
> Almost 30 freaken years of marriage.
> 
> She was the love of my life.


Thorburn,

I'm sorry this is happening to you, I can hear the pain in your post. No matter how bad things are with your spouse, it still hurts to know that you've lost 30 yrs. of your life. But your doctors are right, if you continue to stay, you are going to end up with a heart attack or stroke from the stress and then who would look out for your sons. Think of yourself and them. You can't fix her. I'll be praying and thinking about you.

Blessings,
Grann7


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> It is my attitude. Saw my primary doctor and psychiatrist today and they told me to move on.
> 
> Almost 30 freaken years of marriage.
> 
> She was the love of my life.


You've got that many years and then some left to live. 

Now go to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> You've got that many years and then some left to live.
> 
> Now go to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Listening to blue grass with my son. he is a good guitar player. I was jamming a little on the piano with him. he asked if I brought my trumpet, I use to be a pretty dan* good trumpet player, I played Carnegie Hall in New York once. I told him I forgot to bring it. when I packed up this morning I wanted to grab one of my horns and bring one with me but forgot to do that.

Heading out to a restaurant. 

Be back later.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> Listening to blue grass with my son. he is a good guitar player. I was jamming a little on the piano with him. he asked if I brought my trumpet, I use to be a pretty dan* good trumpet player, I played Carnegie Hall in New York once. I told him I forgot to bring it. when I packed up this morning I wanted to grab one of my horns and bring one with me but forgot to do that.
> 
> Heading out to a restaurant.
> 
> Be back later.


I'm a bluegrass nut. Ask your son if he's heard of the Infamous Stringdusters. Those guys are so good you can smell them. 

You should make a list of all the hobbies and pastimes you put aside or gave up when you got married. Dig them out and dust them off and have some fun again.


----------



## MattMatt

Thorburn said:


> Listening to blue grass with my son. he is a good guitar player. I was jamming a little on the piano with him. he asked if I brought my trumpet, I use to be a pretty dan* good trumpet player, I played Carnegie Hall in New York once. I told him I forgot to bring it. when I packed up this morning I wanted to grab one of my horns and bring one with me but forgot to do that.
> 
> Heading out to a restaurant.
> 
> Be back later.


*Blue Grass?* Wow! I am impressed!:smthumbup:


----------



## Machiavelli

bandit.45 said:


> T why is your wife so attractive to young men? Is she still that hot looking for her age? I don't see how a 52 year old arthritic pulls them in like she does.





Jasel said:


> There are a lot of men out there who will **** anyone who is willing or capable of spreading their legs. They don't even have to be attracted to her.


All it takes is a moderately good body. I tell my over 50 female clients they aren't getting their money's worth if they aren't getting approached by guys half their age. They're always happy to tell me about it when it happens. Naturally, these guys are only interested in the action.


----------



## Machiavelli

bandit.45 said:


> You've got that many years and then some left to live.
> 
> Now go to it.


That's a fact. I have three male clients over 70 with waist sizes in the 30/32 range and they're all strong. One guy is 71 with a very nice bodied 38 year old wife. The other 71 year old has a 55 year old GF he's been with for 12 years, since he was 59 and she was 43. The last guy over 70 guy is married to a 56 year old M.D. for the last 12 years or so. I have several guys in their late 50's and early 60's who run soft harems of single and divorced women in the 38-42 range. Most of these guys aren't loaded, either. It's all about the physique and the attitude.

On a related note, I used to be a trumpet player myself. I switched to guitar. Took me about 2 years to get really good. I highly recommend it. Lead guitar turns you into a chick magnet at any age.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> I'm a bluegrass nut. Ask your son if he's heard of the Infamous Stringdusters. Those guys are so good you can smell them.
> 
> You should make a list of all the hobbies and pastimes you put aside or gave up when you got married. Dig them out and dust them off and have some fun again.


My son knows them all. I said, do you know the Stringdusters? He said, "yea, I know them"


----------



## WTHiswrong

Sounds like you're having a good time. You need it. Enjoy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

My BIL said to me today, do you remember that German kid that helped buillt your house, I said yea Victor. He said you told me that your WS (his sister) was flirting with him. I said, I never said that. He said, Oh, somebody told me that she had a thing for him and was flirting with him on several occasions. Victor was from Germany and we introduced him to my MIL who was from Germany and I invited him to some family functions. He worked with the contractor who oversaw the construction of our house 16 years ago. Victor was about 20 years old and my WS was in her late 30's. 

Then my neighbor came to me today. Our neighbor at our other house that we built 16 years ago and the one my son is renting from us. He said do you remember Victor? I said, yes. He said I never wanted to tell you but, he use to come over after you went to work and spend hours in your house (after it was finished) with your wife and she would come out and have a cigarette after he left.


The weird thing is I did not initiate any of these conversations and have forgotten about "Victor". I remember my WS trying to hook Victor up with our niece and they went out on one date. I do remember now that it was strange that my WS wanted Victor in the family, I do remember her saying that.
Amazing. Did she?


----------



## Thorburn

All I know is I needed to get away and this is nice.


----------



## bandit.45

T your wife has been cheating on you at every opportunity for years. 

Accept it and move on. She will pay for her sins in lonliness and isolation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> Then my neighbor came to me today. Our neighbor at our other house that we built 16 years ago and the one my son is renting from us. He said do you remember Victor? I said, yes. He said I never wanted to tell you but, he use to come over after you went to work and spend hours in your house (after it was finished) with your wife and she would come out and have a cigarette after he left.
> 
> Amazing. Did she?


No question about it. Sorry, man. Shake the dust off your feet.


----------



## turnera

I'm so sorry. Looks like you've been living a lie.


----------



## Machiavelli

turnera said:


> I'm so sorry. Looks like you've been living a lie.


She sure was.


----------



## Granny7

Thorburn said:


> Listening to blue grass with my son. he is a good guitar player. I was jamming a little on the piano with him. he asked if I brought my trumpet, I use to be a pretty dan* good trumpet player, I played Carnegie Hall in New York once. I told him I forgot to bring it. when I packed up this morning I wanted to grab one of my horns and bring one with me but forgot to do that.
> 
> Heading out to a restaurant.
> 
> Be back later.


Thorburn,

You have a wonderful time with your son. You deserve it! My niece has a bluegrass band in a restaurant that is named after her, in Pedido Key, Ala. She's been playing the mandolin for over 35 yrs. and is really good. All the top bands, country and blue grass come to that area all the time for Jam sessions. So, you have a ball. I love Bluegrass also. I would love to send you a copy of her CD if your interested? You could send me your e-mail address and we could exchange an address, not sure when your moving. So just let me know.

Granny7


----------



## Shaggy

This is why she is so angry. 

Her life has her happily living in a one sided open marriage. She has been having sex with other men your entire marriage. Sorry to say it, but your boys may not be yours.

Your wife is angry because she sees you as being the one that has broken up things. She's had the dinner on the table and gave up basic duty sex to you, you worked, she had frequent daytime sex partners all along.

Then you went an messed it all up.

Honestly she's about as nasty as I've seen here on TAM when it all comes out.


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> He said I never wanted to tell you but, he use to come over after you went to work and spend hours in your house (after it was finished) with your wife and she would come out and have a cigarette after he left.


Well, that explains your wife's demeanor in the car, it's a game to her, it's normal for her, she's good at what she does, it's not a big deal to her, it's part of the fabric of who she is, and to be anything else at this point is probably unfathomable. In fact, she's probably done it for so long, and so often, and managed to function so well in this double life, that she may not fully grasp how wrong this thing really is. I do recall in the recording her complaining to the OM about you checking on her so much and how you had no right to do that, and of course, the OM agreed. Imagine that, they agreed that they shouldn't be subject to interrogation and had a right to their privacy as cheating married people (which reminds me, remember, evidently he's married).

She just wants to keep the status quo because it's worked so well for her for so long, that's why she looks rough right now, she's scared of the unknown. Your wife knows how to be the married woman on the prowl who gets to go home afterward and regroup, but once she's divorced, she's all in, and she doesn't know how to be the full-time version of what's she's done part-time for so long.

T


----------



## morituri

Thorburn,

Without you, she has no choice but to face who she really is.

Before she ever lied to you, she first lied to herself.


----------



## keko

Just sickening.

I'm sorry T.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

I've been thinking for a long time that she has been cheating your whole marriage. I never felt she started when you first found out. More likely started on one of your fist deployments.

The reason you never suspected is her total lack of a conscience. She doesn't give her self away because she sees nothing wrong with it. Now you are the bad guy because you have screwed up her whole way of life.
I would sleep with my door locked, she can not be trusted.


----------



## SaltInWound

keko said:


> Just sickening.


That is an understatement. After following this thread for a while and watching it unfold, I feel nauseated, as if it is my life. I fear this will be the truth in my own marriage. The onion layers peeling away the more I dig and it just keeps getting sicker and sicker as I get closer to the core. 20+ years of never having a clue of the real person he is. Where is the vomit smilie?


----------



## morituri

Thornburn,

You sir are a man among us men. I will forever salute your devotion in the face of betrayal. *NEVER, EVER regret the man you have been*. We, as well as your son's, have NEVER had a doubt about that.


----------



## bandit.45

morituri said:


> Thornburn,
> 
> You sir are a man among us men. I will forever salute your devotion in the face of betrayal. *NEVER, EVER regret the man you have been*. We, as well as your son's, have NEVER had a doubt about that.


Mori!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

I am just waiting for my son to get up. I don't know where the coffee pot is and with his roommates living here I don't know who's food is who's and I don't feel comfortable just eating something. 

Weird. I lived here since around 1997 and feel like a stranger here. Not with my son but there is a kid sleeping on the couch (a friend of one of the roommates), I slept in our finished basement.

My son's roommates are good kids. One goes to college and the other works construction. 

My WS met the one and did not meet the other one yet. I doubt she will as my son does not want her around.

Don't go there with the one she met. I can tell he is not that kind of kid and my son has not said anything to them about his mother.

So today after my son gets up, I have to run and take care of Billy, he is the special needs man (45 years old) that I have taken care of since 1995. I manage his money, take him shopping once a month and today is the day I do that. 

Then I will come back here and we will look at the brakes on my truck. Then hang out some more and chill.

I plan on going to church tomorrow. My BIL knows a pastor who has a church downtown and I have talked to him. 

This crap is so hard. Trying to figure out stuff on my own where it use to be shared. Trying to stay motivated when I feel numb and am filled with disbelief. Seeing but not believing.

And then to see her reaction to all this. Almost pure anger. 

I appreciate the comments because they have been dead on target.


----------



## Thorburn

SaltInWound said:


> That is an understatement. After following this thread for a while and watching it unfold, I feel nauseated, as if it is my life. I fear this will be the truth in my own marriage. The onion layers peeling away the more I dig and it just keeps getting sicker and sicker as I get closer to the core. 20+ years of never having a clue of the real person he is. Where is the vomit smilie?


Hugs to you. I know how it is. Part of me still does not want to give up on my WS and yet I know it is hopeless. My psychiatrist told me it is understandable that you feel like this, that part of you don't want to give up. She said, you have been married to this woman for almost 30 years. She said you have the strength to do it and she said, disengage and walk away.

I am just trying to get a handle on things and I don't even know what that is. Like, what is behind door number one if I go that way, or door number two?


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn you're gonna make it. Just push through the pain...just like the Army taught you. In a way, this is a worse battle than any you were in while deployed. But you'll come out alive on the other side. 

A man of your talent and heart doesn't stay down for long. I see a happy and bright future for you down the road.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Thorburn said:


> Hugs to you. I know how it is. Part of me still does not want to give up on my WS and yet I know it is hopeless. My psychiatrist told me it is understandable that you feel like this, that part of you don't want to give up. She said, you have been married to this woman for almost 30 years. She said you have the strength to do it and she said, disengage and walk away.
> 
> I am just trying to get a handle on things and I don't even know what that is. Like, what is behind door number one if I go that way, or door number two?


Whatever door leads you away from her. That's the door to take. Sometimes I don't think you realize what a great person you really are. Sometimes it seems that you keep trying to define yourself by her and your long marriage. That is only a small fraction of who you are. You are so much more than her husband. I'm sure there are so many things that you enjoyed but ultimately gave up to be married. Thise are part of Thormburn too. Its time to let the husband Thorburn go and rediscover the complete man Thorburn again. This mission is over soldier. Now you start working on your next one.


----------



## bandit.45

bfree said:


> Whatever door leads you away from her. That's the door to take. Sometimes I don't think you realize what a great person you really are. Sometimes it seems that you keep trying to define yourself by her and your long marriage. That is only a small fraction of who you are. You are so much more than her husband. I'm sure there are so many things that you enjoyed but ultimately gave up to be married. Thise are part of Thormburn too. Its time to let the husband Thorburn go and rediscover the complete man Thorburn again. This mission is over soldier. Now you start working on your next one.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Yes, yes, yes ,yes........


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn....lets spend the day NOT talking about your STBXWW.

Tell us about your trumpet playing. How old were you when you started playing? What kinds of music did you play? Were you a big band player? Jazz?


----------



## MattMatt

Thorburn said:


> Hugs to you. I know how it is. Part of me still does not want to give up on my WS and yet I know it is hopeless. My psychiatrist told me it is understandable that you feel like this, that part of you don't want to give up. She said, you have been married to this woman for almost 30 years. She said you have the strength to do it and she said, disengage and walk away.
> 
> I am just trying to get a handle on things and I don't even know what that is. Like, what is behind door number one if I go that way, or door number two?


Use any door your wife is not behind?


----------



## illwill

If it makes u feel better her life was always going tp end like this. You areyoung enough to start over and be happy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

bandit.45 said:


> Thorburn....lets spend the day NOT talking about your STBXWW.
> 
> Tell us about your trumpet playing. How old were you when you started playing? What kinds of music did you play? Were you a big band player? Jazz?


Thorburn...if ya say you enjoy listening to Roy Eldridge and Dizzy Gillespie you'll make my day! Love me some good be-bop.


----------



## Tony55

Regarding your to-do list; brakes, inspection sticker, finances, etc, each one of those are a weight on you. Have you ever seen one of weighted vests for working out, you have individual weights you put in pockets to make it heavier or lighter? Your wife is the largest weight in the vest and the items on your to-do list are like weights of various sizes in the vest, and each item you complete something (like the brakes), it's like removing one of those weights, and the more items you complete, the less the vest begins to weigh, and before you know it, the only weight left in the vest is the_ 'wife weight'_, and surprisingly, she doesn't feel so heavy anymore because you threw off so many of the other weights, you can stand up straight and handle the burden without breaking a sweat because you eliminated so many other problems that were weighing you down.

T


----------



## Granny7

morituri said:


> Thornburn,
> 
> You sir are a man among us men. I will forever salute your devotion in the face of betrayal. *NEVER, EVER regret the man you have been*. We, as well as your son's, have NEVER had a doubt about that.


Thorburn,
Morituri, I love what you have said to Thorburn. Truer words couldn't have been spoken. I think he has put up with so much trying to save a marriage that I don't feel is possible, nor that he should try and save. I think all of us agree and he's went way beyond that point. It doesn't make it any easier for him, especially with a special needs young man. I can't tell you how much I admire him for doing all that he has done and the burden of getting rid of one problem after another. I complain of my pain in my marriage and then I read about Thorburn and he has it so much worse. Thanks for telling him what you said, you are a gem!

Granny7


----------



## Granny7

Thorburn said:


> I am just waiting for my son to get up. I don't know where the coffee pot is and with his roommates living here I don't know who's food is who's and I don't feel comfortable just eating something.
> 
> Weird. I lived here since around 1997 and feel like a stranger here. Not with my son but there is a kid sleeping on the couch (a friend of one of the roommates), I slept in our finished basement.
> 
> My son's roommates are good kids. One goes to college and the other works construction.
> 
> My WS met the one and did not meet the other one yet. I doubt she will as my son does not want her around.
> 
> Don't go there with the one she met. I can tell he is not that kind of kid and my son has not said anything to them about his mother.
> 
> So today after my son gets up, I have to run and take care of Billy, he is the special needs man (45 years old) that I have taken care of since 1995. I manage his money, take him shopping once a month and today is the day I do that.
> 
> Then I will come back here and we will look at the brakes on my truck. Then hang out some more and chill.
> 
> I plan on going to church tomorrow. My BIL knows a pastor who has a church downtown and I have talked to him.
> 
> This crap is so hard. Trying to figure out stuff on my own where it use to be shared. Trying to stay motivated when I feel numb and am filled with disbelief. Seeing but not believing.
> 
> And then to see her reaction to all this. Almost pure anger.
> 
> I appreciate the comments because they have been dead on target.


Thorburn,
Make a list of everything you need to do and cross it off. It will make it a lot easier for you and make the weight feel lighter. Your cheating wife the last one on the list. I remember my therapist told me to get a punching bag and pretend it was my husband and when I got upset, just start punching it. I didn't belong to a gym at the time, so I bought one of those children's 4 or 5" blow up animals, not sure what mine was and I would punch the devil out of it to get rid of my anger and frustrations. They probably don't make them anymore, but you get the point. Is their a YMCA that you can go to? Our insurance covers our's, but we are also senior citizens at 69. Not sure what the actual age is and if you have insurance to cover it. You can add this to your list. I know that exercising, at least it was for me, when I was in such a depressed state I couldn't even do. It took joining a class, at my pastor's suggestion at our college that had to do with depression. We had to keep a journal in this class and walk outside at least 30 minutes a day and then when we met once a week for 6 weeks, let them know if we did it. It took all I could do to walk out that door and if I let myself think about it, it was harder. I did do it and it did help, but I would look at my watch to see how much longer I had to walk to get in that 30 minutes, but I didn't want to go back to that class and let them know that I didn't do it. Maybe at some point you can do some of the same. To address the anger, depression and all the stress your under. I'm thinking about you.
Granny7


----------



## Granny7

SomedayDig said:


> Thorburn...if ya say you enjoy listening to Roy Eldridge and Dizzy Gillespie you'll make my day! Love me some good be-bop.


Thorburn,
Listen to SomedayDig,
What he is saying is so true. Sometimes I have found that forgetting and not talking about this huge problem and focusing on happy things will give your mind a break. Let us know what makes you happy and it sounds like your music is right up there. But try just one day of not talking about your wife and your problems, see if it helps.

Granny7


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Thorburn....lets spend the day NOT talking about your STBXWW.
> 
> Tell us about your trumpet playing. How old were you when you started playing? What kinds of music did you play? Were you a big band player? Jazz?


Started young. My older brother played trumpet and my other older brother played trombone (he still plays). There was 5 years between me and my next older brother and my dad paid for private lessons for them but would not when I came along. My brothers played in rock and roll bands and my dad did not like it. So he said, I am paying for you to grow up and play rock and roll. I stank in school playing. I started private lessons when I was in the military and continue with private lessons in college. My trumpet instructor in college is another story. He made Chuck Mangione famous, long story.

I played just about everything and then got into jazz. Played my last concert in 1997 and then kind of left it go. Picked it up when I was in Iraq, got my chops back half way came home and stopped again. 

When I played at Carnegie Hall it was with a brass chamber group of about 13 horns. 

I played weddings etc. back in the 90's.

Enjoyed it but other things crowded out practicing and with the trumpet you have to practice to key your chops in shape.


----------



## Thorburn

Granny7 said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> You have a wonderful time with your son. You deserve it! My niece has a bluegrass band in a restaurant that is named after her, in Pedido Key, Ala. She's been playing the mandolin for over 35 yrs. and is really good. All the top bands, country and blue grass come to that area all the time for Jam sessions. So, you have a ball. I love Bluegrass also. I would love to send you a copy of her CD if your interested? You could send me your e-mail address and we could exchange an address, not sure when your moving. So just let me know.
> 
> Granny7


Yes I will accept. P.M. me for my son's address


----------



## Thorburn

Truck is in the shop, just waiting to hear the damage. Grilling bratwurst with my son.


----------



## bandit.45

Did you ever play flugelhorn or cornet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Did you ever play flugelhorn or cornet?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Both. have some cornets. I also have a Eb/D trumpet. I am selling it. I wanted to do some classical work so I bought it after I came home from Iraq and liked it but again, time got away from me. 

I have Bachs, an old king, a professional Yamaha (my favorite horn), a nice Getzen Capri trumpet, etc. 

I have some trombones that I am trying to sell as well. Never got the hang of the trombone.


----------



## bfree

I can see it now. Thorburn is jamming away on his trumpet in a band. He gets off stage and several young women all flock around him in appreciation for his wonderful playing.


----------



## Thorburn

My son is making bread. I was the bread maker in the family. My family loved my bread. I have a bunch of flour, oats, gluten, etc here. So he looked up a recipe and is making bread the old fashioned way.

I am making him a batch of sour dough starter. I will put it in a mason jar and told him to let it ferment for 4 to 8 days. Once it gets bubbly and smells sour it is ready.

My son made his own hard cider, sour Kraut, etc. Kind of takes after me.


----------



## Thorburn

bfree said:


> I can see it now. Thorburn is jamming away on his trumpet in a band. He gets off stage and several young women all flock around him in appreciation for his wonderful playing.


I wish. My chops are way out of shape.


----------



## Granny7

Thorburn said:


> Started young. My older brother played trumpet and my other older brother played trombone (he still plays). There was 5 years between me and my next older brother and my dad paid for private lessons for them but would not when I came along. My brothers played in rock and roll bands and my dad did not like it. So he said, I am paying for you to grow up and play rock and roll. I stank in school playing. I started private lessons when I was in the military and continue with private lessons in college. My trumpet instructor in college is another story. He made Chuck Mangione famous, long story.
> 
> I played just about everything and then got into jazz. Played my last concert in 1997 and then kind of left it go. Picked it up when I was in Iraq, got my chops back half way came home and stopped again.
> 
> When I played at Carnegie Hall it was with a brass chamber group of about 13 horns.
> 
> I played weddings etc. back in the 90's.
> 
> Enjoyed it but other things crowded out practicing and with the trumpet you have to practice to key your chops in shape.


Thorburn,
It's so good to hear you talking about happy things. You and my son, Steve would get along just great. He's a accomplished Jazz musician and has played all over the world, including the Montrex Jazz Festival in Germany, with Doc Severson, Band's in Boca in Fl. etc. He started in the 7th. grade, graduated with a scholarship from Fla. Atlantic and was offered one for his Master's degree from Miami University, but turned it down. He didn't want to teach music. He's picked up the trumpet, like you play about 4 yrs. ago, loves it. Started with the Tenor Sax at 13, then alto, soprano, clarinet, flute, keyboard and drum's. He lives on top of his mountain in Rio and has a recording studio there. He's got 3 CD's out right now, Deck Vision, Nanogram and Albert. You can actually go to YouTube and see where he lives, records and hear him play Jazz there. Just look for F11, or the titles. They are interesting video's as they show the mountain and jam sessions in his home. He's also on Amazon, F11 The Deck, plus the other titles and iTunes, etc. I think it would take your mind off of some of your problems as it's very relaxing to watch and listen to.

You have had quite an accomplished career. I hope that you are proud of what you have done and will pick up that trumpet and play it. Check him out when you get the chance. 

Granny7


----------



## Thorburn

Granny7 said:


> Thorburn,
> It's so good to hear you talking about happy things. You and my son, Steve would get along just great. He's a accomplished Jazz musician and has played all over the world, including the Montrex Jazz Festival in Germany, with Doc Severson, Band's in Boca in Fl. etc. He started in the 7th. grade, graduated with a scholarship from Fla. Atlantic and was offered one for his Master's degree from Miami University, but turned it down. He didn't want to teach music. He's picked up the trumpet, like you play about 4 yrs. ago, loves it. Started with the Tenor Sax at 13, then alto, soprano, clarinet, flute, keyboard and drum's. He lives on top of his mountain in Rio and has a recording studio there. He's got 3 CD's out right now, Deck Vision, Nanogram and Albert. You can actually go to YouTube and see where he lives, records and hear him play Jazz there. Just look for F11, or the titles. They are interesting video's as they show the mountain and jam sessions in his home. He's also on Amazon, F11 The Deck, plus the other titles and iTunes, etc. I think it would take your mind off of some of your problems as it's very relaxing to watch and listen to.
> 
> You have had quite an accomplished career. I hope that you are proud of what you have done and will pick up that trumpet and play it. Check him out when you get the chance.
> 
> Granny7


Listened to some of those tracks. Thanks


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> Both. have some cornets. I also have a Eb/D trumpet. I am selling it. I wanted to do some classical work so I bought it after I came home from Iraq and liked it but again, time got away from me.
> 
> I have Bachs, an old king, a professional Yamaha (my favorite horn), a nice Getzen Capri trumpet, etc.
> 
> I have some trombones that I am trying to sell as well. Never got the hang of the trombone.


I played flugelgorn in High School but had no talent. It was a Benge....a nice horn. Traded it for an Edelbrock carb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Mangione plays flugelhorn beautifully. Killer tone. Feel So Good is still one of the best driving songs ever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Mangione plays flugelhorn beautifully. Killer tone. Feel So Good is still one of the best driving songs ever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, here the story on Chuck. My trumpet instructor Dr. Koponen was a first year student at Eastman school of music. Dr. Koponen made first chair trumpet and Chuck was a third year student and was first chair and said, I sit second to no one especially a first year student. He switched to flugelhorn. Dr. Koponen would joke that he made Chuck famous. 

I remember one time the phone ringing when I was having a private class with Dr. Koponen and it was Dave Brubeck, they were friends, and he asked Dr. Koponen if he had a trumpet player for a Saturday night gig at Carnegie Hall. I remember Dr. Koponen saying I got a trumpet player for you. My friend Scott (I am still in contact with him) played that gig. For a small college we had Scott on trumpet who played with some great bands and Kenny Crane who played trumbone with Maynard Ferguson and was first chair with Buddy Rich for a year.


----------



## bandit.45

The fact you know these guys and were in company with them means you had some chops T. Dude you gotta recapture that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> The fact you know these guys and were in company with them means you had some chops T. Dude you gotta recapture that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I could keep up with them. Never had the real high range. Wanted to be a studio player but you had to have a good consistent high G. Never got there. It was hit and miss. Good days I could hit it all day long and other days could barely squeal a high F. It was as if high Eb was my ceiling. I played classical pieces that had a bunch of high Eb's and never missed but anything above that was not consistent. I can still play the stuff up to Eb but nothing higher is consistent.


----------



## Thorburn

Listening to Jeff Beck right now and Scatterbrain is playing on my son's computer. Great guitar.


----------



## Granny7

Thorburn,

What a story. It's so good to hear about all the people you got to play with, it had to be exciting and what memories. My son's first instrument, like I said was a Tenor Sax, an old Kohn if I'm spelling it right. Bob Dylan was in Rio about a year ago and he invited Steve and their group to come back stage and then he got front row seats for their show. Dylan was suppose to come up the mountain for a jam session but ran out of time. I'm glad your enjoying listening to Steve's music. I hope you are finding all the sites on YouTube that shows the Jam sessions, they are very interesting. He's the one playing the Sax, flute or trumpet with his long hair braided. It's all natural where they live. His son, 17 Connor is now playing Bass and Mandolin with his Dad's band and still learning. 

Music is a universal language and I'm glad you are finding some joy in it.

Blessings,

Granny7


----------



## bfree

Thorburn said:


> My son is making bread. I was the bread maker in the family. My family loved my bread. I have a bunch of flour, oats, gluten, etc here. So he looked up a recipe and is making bread the old fashioned way.
> 
> I am making him a batch of sour dough starter. I will put it in a mason jar and told him to let it ferment for 4 to 8 days. Once it gets bubbly and smells sour it is ready.
> 
> My son made his own hard cider, sour Kraut, etc. Kind of takes after me.


My wife just made some bread using almond flour (she doesn't do well with wheat.) It came out pretty good. She just found a recipe using coconut flour and she's going to try that next week.


----------



## Thorburn

Eating his bread now, my son is playing his guitar/ The house is full of his friends.

I just asked him to play Uncle John's band from the Grateful Dead. I was just singing with him.

He is chilling out with his guitar, there are like 5 of his friends here. Two I just met. The others are friends that I have known for years.

Waiting for the garage to call with the damage.

At least I am getting the truck done. It will be another weight off me.

Then I will face the finances. 

Once I can get my hands wrapped around that then i can move forward with getting my license for my job. I can use the VA for that. I am 60% rated disabled Vet so I can either used the post 911 bill or Vocational Rehab.


----------



## Granny7

Thorburn said:


> Eating his bread now, my son is playing his guitar/ The house is full of his friends.
> 
> I just asked him to play Uncle John's band from the Grateful Dead. I was just singing with him.
> 
> He is chilling out with his guitar, there are like 5 of his friends here. Two I just met. The others are friends that I have known for years.
> 
> Waiting for the garage to call with the damage.
> 
> At least I am getting the truck done. It will be another weight off me.
> 
> Then I will face the finances.
> 
> Once I can get my hands wrapped around that then i can move forward with getting my license for my job. I can use the VA for that. I am 60% rated disabled Vet so I can either used the post 911 bill or Vocational Rehab.


Thorburn,
I wish I was a fly on the wall to see all the happiness surrounding you.
Enjoy, Granny7


----------



## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> Eating his bread now, my son is playing his guitar/ The house is full of his friends.
> 
> I just asked him to play Uncle John's band from the Grateful Dead. I was just singing with him.
> 
> He is chilling out with his guitar, there are like 5 of his friends here. Two I just met. The others are friends that I have known for years.


That sounds wonderful.


----------



## Mtts

Machiavelli said:


> She sure was.


An intersting sentence.

I recently had this conversation.

What is the difference between living a lie and lying about everything?

Thorburn is living a lie, he was not aware of the lie, to him it was truth(his wifes faithfulness). However it wasn't real but to his perception it was as it had not been shaken.

His Wife or STBXW was lying about everything. She was aware of the deciet but continued the facade of faithfulness until caught. Forcing our good OP here to live the lie, while she lied about everything.

A subtle but kind of thought provoking nuance that makes me sit and think.


----------



## Thorburn

Talked to my older BIL today. He is a senior pastor in North Dakota. He said, Mac I am on your side after we talked awhile. He said what she has done over the years is obvious, I don't have to prove anything more.

Anyway my truck has a new emission's sticker but failed inspection. I was bummed out for 20 minutes. Paid the bill and they said it would be over $900.00 to pass. 

So positive me kicked in. I stopped at an auto parts store. Gave them the list of stuff they said I needed, brakes, wheel seal, wheel cynlinder, rear spring shackle. 

The repair shop wants over $250.00 to replace the front pads. Auto parts - $22.00 I can do them myself.

The repair shop wants $161.00 to replace rear wheel seal.
Auto part store says the part is $3.29. I have no clue how to do this. 

All the parts come to less then $80.00.

So I have to find someone who can help me. Brakes I can do. The rest I am not sure of how to do it.

Anyway, might figure it out or find someone who can.

Watching my son and his friends play beer pong. No I am not playing.

Listening to Willie Nelson.

Mood is very positive.


----------



## Mtts

Thorburn said:


> Talked to my older BIL today. He is a senior pastor in North Dakota. He said, Mac I am on your side after we talked awhile. He said what she has done over the years is obvious, I don't have to prove anything more.
> 
> Anyway my truck has a new emission's sticker but failed inspection. I was bummed out for 20 minutes. Paid the bill and they said it would be over $900.00 to pass.
> 
> So positive me kicked in. I stopped at an auto parts store. Gave them the list of stuff they said I needed, brakes, wheel seal, wheel cynlinder, rear spring shackle.
> 
> The repair shop wants over $250.00 to replace the front pads. Auto parts - $22.00 I can do them myself.
> 
> The repair shop wants $161.00 to replace rear wheel seal.
> Auto part store says the part is $3.29. I have no clue how to do this.
> 
> All the parts come to less then $80.00.
> 
> So I have to find someone who can help me. Brakes I can do. The rest I am not sure of how to do it.
> 
> Anyway, might figure it out or find someone who can.
> 
> Watching my son and his friends play beer pong. No I am not playing.
> 
> Listening to Willie Nelson.
> 
> Mood is very positive.


What kind of car? I might not know yours specifically but I do alot on my own and like working on them. I might be able to give you some over the net help (I.e tools you might want).


----------



## 3putt

Thorburn said:


> Talked to my older BIL today. He is a senior pastor in North Dakota. He said, Mac I am on your side after we talked awhile. He said what she has done over the years is obvious, I don't have to prove anything more.
> 
> Anyway my truck has a new emission's sticker but failed inspection. I was bummed out for 20 minutes. Paid the bill and they said it would be over $900.00 to pass.
> 
> So positive me kicked in. I stopped at an auto parts store. Gave them the list of stuff they said I needed, brakes, wheel seal, wheel cynlinder, rear spring shackle.
> 
> The repair shop wants over $250.00 to replace the front pads. Auto parts - $22.00 I can do them myself.
> 
> The repair shop wants $161.00 to replace rear wheel seal.
> Auto part store says the part is $3.29. I have no clue how to do this.
> 
> All the parts come to less then $80.00.
> 
> So I have to find someone who can help me. Brakes I can do. The rest I am not sure of how to do it.
> 
> Anyway, might figure it out or find someone who can.
> 
> Watching my son and his friends play beer pong. No I am not playing.
> 
> Listening to Willie Nelson.
> 
> Mood is very positive.


Thorburn, go to your local library and check out a Chilton's or Hayne's car repair manual for your make and model. If they don't have it, you can buy it at any car parts place for around $20. It's worth it's weight in gold.

I'm quite handy under the hood, so if you run into any snags just let me know. These problems are all easily, and cheaply, fixed.

I'll keep an eye on your thread constantly now, just in case I can help, but check you library first for those manuals. I didn't even realize mine had them until about a year ago, and I've been buying them for 30 something years.

We'll get this fixed.


----------



## Thorburn

Mtts said:


> What kind of car? I might not know yours specifically but I do alot on my own and like working on them. I might be able to give you some over the net help (I.e tools you might want).


I have a 1997 ford F150 extended cab (three door) It is old but I love it. Has a 5 speed manual transmission. 4X4. 

Just love the five speed and got it for the antique business.


----------



## Thorburn

3putt said:


> Thorburn, go to your local library and check out a Chilton's or Hayne's car repair manual for your make and model. If they don't have it, you can buy it at any car parts place for around $20. It's worth it's weight in gold.
> 
> I'm quite handy under the hood, so if you run into any snags just let me know. These problems are all easily, and cheaply, fixed.
> 
> I'll keep an eye on your thread constantly now, just in case I can help, but check you library first for those manuals. I didn't even realize mine had them until about a year ago, and I've been buying them for 30 something years.
> 
> We'll get this fixed.


Got a chilton's in my truck. I am mechanically inclined. Just don't know about the seals, and spring shackles. I know brakes and some other things but this other stuff I am just unfamiliar with.

Thanks


----------



## Thorburn

Now there are a dozen of my son's friend here, listening to Miles Davis. One of his friends prayed for me. His wife and him helped my son big time. So it is relaxing.


----------



## keko

Have you tried going to a different inspection site? Brakes I understand but the spring shackles? C'mon.


----------



## Thorburn

keko said:


> Have you tried going to a different inspection site? Brakes I understand but the spring shackles? C'mon.


One of my son's roommates is from where I live he said he will hook me up with a family friend who can help me. He said he will give me the information tomorrow his parents are contacting the guy tomorrow.

Man, friends are great.


----------



## bandit.45

Yes friends are great. And the sign of a good man is how many friends he has. Sounds like you've got plenty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn, when it comes to doing your own auto repairs, I found going to YouTube usually turns up some good DIY videos.

T


----------



## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> Both. have some cornets. I also have a Eb/D trumpet. I am selling it. I wanted to do some classical work so I bought it after I came home from Iraq and liked it but again, time got away from me.
> 
> I have Bachs, an old king, a professional Yamaha (my favorite horn), a nice Getzen Capri trumpet, etc.
> 
> I have some trombones that I am trying to sell as well. Never got the hang of the trombone.


Bach. Bach. Bach. The school I went to was always trying to push me to buy a Bach, but they were top dollar. Got a Reynolds that was just as good. Those were cornets. Can't even remember what brand my trumpet is/was. I don't think I have any of them anymore. Anyway, I think the band directors must've gotten kickbacks. It was kind of a high dollar school district and my parents had the smallest, cheapest place in the attendance zone, so no Bach for me. Although, I did have a Bach mouthpiece.

Now I've got two walls full of Gibsons, Ricks, and Fenders. Besides the girls, one reason I switched to Guitar was I went from being first chair trumpet in my old school to second chair cornet in the new school. They didn't like my embouchure as taught to me back in 4th grade. Pissed me off.


----------



## 3putt

Tony55 said:


> Thorburn, when it comes to doing your own auto repairs, I found going to YouTube usually turns up some good DIY videos.
> 
> T


Speaking of which......

How To Install Replace Rear Leaf Spring Shackle Explorer Sport Trac Mountaineer 91-05 1AAuto.com - YouTube

Wheel cylinders can also be easily rebuilt instead of replacing. It's really nothing more than replacing the seals on either end, the pistons that push the pads into the drum, then the dust boot to finish. It's really a very easy task. Of course, you'll have to bleed the lines when you're done, but that's even easier.

And, keko, I'm with you. That spring shackle thing is nothing more than an attempt to extort from the unknowing. I hate this kind of mechanical predator.


----------



## Machiavelli

Tony55 said:


> Thorburn, when it comes to doing your own auto repairs, I found going to YouTube usually turns up some good DIY videos.
> 
> T


Best advice on here, yet. You can find just about any job on just about any model, or dang close.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Tony55 said:


> Thorburn, when it comes to doing your own auto repairs, I found going to YouTube usually turns up some good DIY videos.
> 
> T


Very true. I've found all kinds of good how-to's on youtube. Hell I even found a video on how to change the wheel bearing assembly in my wife's volvo, step by step. No reason to tell her that I was painting by numbers though!


----------



## Machiavelli

3putt said:


> And, keko, I'm with you. That spring shackle thing is nothing more than an attempt to extort from the unknowing. I hate this kind of mechanical predator.


If it's a government requirement, you know it's a shakedown.


----------



## 3putt

Machiavelli said:


> If it's a government requirement, you know it's a shakedown.


Yep, which is why it still amazes me that inspections were done away with here in South Carolina 15-20 years ago. That one shocked me to say the least. Inspections are a good reason why I know so much about cars. 

Well, that and the fact that I bought my first car about 30 miles away from home and the carburetor almost fell off on the way home. But that's another story.


----------



## Thorburn

Just getting positive vibes. Getting good advice here on TAM and my son's friends are helping us.


----------



## Thorburn

Tonight is awesome. My son is jamming with his friends on his guitar. The house if filled with his friends who have all talked with me and said I raised an awesome son and they all said he sings my praises saying he said I have a great dad. One kid that is here I knew since he was like 8 years old.

I am having a great time. 

His friend are all telling me to hang in there and stay straight.

Now listening to reggae 

I just needed it.. His newest roommate said my son said his dad is awesome and he said I am so glad to have met you tonight.

Confirms where is am and where I am going.

I just feel affirmed.


----------



## Chaparral

​


Thorburn said:


> Talked to my older BIL today. He is a senior pastor in North Dakota. He said, Mac I am on your side after we talked awhile. He said what she has done over the years is obvious, I don't have to prove anything more.
> 
> Anyway my truck has a new emission's sticker but failed inspection. I was bummed out for 20 minutes. Paid the bill and they said it would be over $900.00 to pass.
> 
> So positive me kicked in. I stopped at an auto parts store. Gave them the list of stuff they said I needed, brakes, wheel seal, wheel cynlinder, rear spring shackle.
> 
> The repair shop wants over $250.00 to replace the front pads. Auto parts - $22.00 I can do them myself.
> 
> The repair shop wants $161.00 to replace rear wheel seal.
> Auto part store says the part is $3.29. I have no clue how to do this.
> 
> All the parts come to less then $80.00.
> 
> So I have to find someone who can help me. Brakes I can do. The rest I am not sure of how to do it.
> 
> Anyway, might figure it out or find someone who can.
> 
> Watching my son and his friends play beer pong. No I am not playing.
> 
> Listening to Willie Nelson.
> 
> Mood is very positive.




Youtube is your mechanic friend.

Garage sounds suspect. Does the garage that does yhe work also do the inspection.

Truck have straight axle?


----------



## Chaparral

By the way. The books are great that the parts stores sell for each seperate model.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> Tonight is awesome. My son is jamming with his friends on his guitar. The house if filled with his friends who have all talked with me and said I raised an awesome son and they all said he sings my praises saying he said I have a great dad. One kid that is here I knew since he was like 8 years old.
> 
> I am having a great time.
> 
> His friend are all telling me to hang in there and stay straight.
> 
> Now listening to reggae
> 
> I just needed it.. His newest roommate said my son said his dad is awesome and he said I am so glad to have met you tonight.
> 
> Confirms where is am and where I am going.
> 
> I just feel affirmed.


Now take that self knowledge and start building a new life for yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cobre

bandit.45 said:


> Now take that self knowledge and start building a new life for yourself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This.


----------



## Thorburn

It is ironic that my son's last friend just left. Some I have known for years and others I just met tonight. They all said what a great son I raised. All of them spoke to me privately throughout the night. They called me Dad or Mr. M. They all shared with me that my son shared with them what is going on and they get it.

Some knew my WS for years and others have not met her but they get it. 

Several of his friends said I never met you before tonight but I get a good vibe about you and understand where your son gets his good stuff, it is from you.

I am so glad i came here this weekend. 

At one point my son was getting aggravated with me and I thought man I got to leave. But he stuck with me and I told him what I needed from him. Not solutions, but a listening ear and support. He came through. as he was getting aggravated with me, he said, Dad, I don't want to hear about your money issues. I said, Son, I need your help and if you can't I understand but you can help and I need you. I said I love you very much and he said, I know. I told him my plan and what I need and something woke up in him. He changed his attitude. I told him I will make it but I need a little help. I think when I got down about the $900.00 for the inspection I took him down with me. But when he drove off and I was driving my truck and stopped by the auto parts store and came home smiling saying, man I was in dumps for like 20 minutes, but now I have good news, his attitude changed.

We had a great night together. I told him I can make this work. He chilled out and many of his friends came over. Several told me that they know he is going through a rough time and heard I was here and they wanted to show their support.

My son hugged me just now and I said I will wake him up before I leave in the morning.

Got my goals done for today. Failed the inspection but at least I put the truck in the shop and I know what I have to do.

Another weight off my chest.


----------



## bandit.45

One day at a time Thorburn, one day at a time.


----------



## illwill

You will get there. Good karma is due.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

Made it back to my new house. My WS came down looked me in the eyes and walked outside. Still has anger but there was another look there that I could not get. It was if she was waiting for me to say something. She really gave me a good look like she was trying to read my expression.

I just let the dog jump on my bed and shut the door. Rudy and I are laying here together.

I thought I missed church and found out the service is actually later today. So I will get ready to go in about an hour or so.


----------



## alte Dame

I've said this before, Thorburn, but your W sounds like a sociopathic personality. I'm sure you know that these types are really, really good at fooling people for very long periods of time. When the mask is taken down, the hostility can be huge.


----------



## bandit.45

alte Dame said:


> I've said this before, Thorburn, but your W sounds like a *sociopathic personality*. I'm sure you know that these types are really, really good at fooling people for very long periods of time. When the mask is taken down, the hostility can be huge.


----------



## arbitrator

alte Dame said:


> I've said this before, Thorburn, but your W sounds like a sociopathic personality. I'm sure you know that these types are really, really good at fooling people for very long periods of time. When the mask is taken down, the hostility can be huge.


Thorburn: The more that I reread your posts, I can't help but believe that your STBXW is just like mine, except mine has the "dollar signs" to go hand in hand with her wanton deceit and her carefree infidelity.

The institution of marriage means absolutely nothing to either one of them!


----------



## bandit.45

arbitrator said:


> Thorburn: The more that I reread your posts, I can't help but believe that your STBXW is just like mine, except mine has the "dollar signs" to go hand in hand with her wanton deceit and her carefree infidelity.
> 
> The institution of marriage means absolutely nothing to either one of them!


Oh, given the way T's wife has strung him along and used him as a meal ticket for at least the last fifteen years, and now has her radar focused on getting half of his Army retirement, there are $ signs in her eyes too.


----------



## Jonesey

bandit.45 said:


>


Man, where are you getting this scary pic´s from??


----------



## bandit.45

Jonesey said:


> Man, where are you getting this scary pic´s from??


YA-HOOOOOoooooOOOOOO.........


----------



## Shaggy

Do you think her look was challenging you to figure out what or who she did while you were away?


----------



## SomedayDig

Uh oh...what did Banned-it do this time?!


----------



## alte Dame

Sociopathic behavior < antisocial personality disorder:

a condition characterized by repetitive behavioral patterns that are contrary to usual moral and ethical standards and cause a person to experience continuous conflict with society. Symptoms include aggression, callousness, impulsiveness, irresponsibility, hostility, a low frustration level, marked emotional immaturity, and poor judgment. A person who has this disorder overlooks the rights of others, is incapable of loyalty to others or to social values, is unable to experience guilt or to learn from past behaviors, is impervious to punishment, and tends to rationalize his or her behavior or to blame it on others.


----------



## MattMatt

3putt said:


> Thorburn, go to your local library and check out a Chilton's or Hayne's car repair manual for your make and model. If they don't have it, you can buy it at any car parts place for around $20. It's worth it's weight in gold.
> 
> I'm quite handy under the hood, so if you run into any snags just let me know. These problems are all easily, and cheaply, fixed.
> 
> I'll keep an eye on your thread constantly now, just in case I can help, but check you library first for those manuals. I didn't even realize mine had them until about a year ago, and I've been buying them for 30 something years.
> 
> We'll get this fixed.


Also, check out Youtube for "how to..." videos.


----------



## Thorburn

She had her car windows down. So I searched her car. Right there on the floor was a phone charger for a wall outlet. I took a picture of it as it did not have the brand name on it but it has a symbol of a circle with like an arrow head pointing to the middle of the circle. Then I checked her GPS She has codes for the places she has been where she renamed them like jjkkii. I found the street name and location. She had it named like a dozen times like qqqllll etc. they all go to the same location but it would not show the exact address, just the street name. 

I imagine this is where she was going. It is a very upscale neighborhood in Delaware.

Went to church the pastor is a man's man and gave me a big bear hug. It was a nice small church in center city. It really spoke to me (the service that is). My oldest BIL has been bugging me to go there for a year and I glad I went. I talked to my BIL and he said we are rooting for you. 

He said his sister has headed down a road to hell and he is really concerned.

He uses the idea of compartmentalization. He said now the walls are broken down and there is just one big room with just her in it with the nice her and the evil her. He said that is why she is so angry.


----------



## warlock07

SomedayDig said:


> Uh oh...what did Banned-it do this time?!


He got into an internet fight with WyshIKnew in one of the threads


----------



## MattMatt

Thorburn said:


> She had her car windows down. So I searched her car. Right there on the floor was a phone charger for a wall outlet. I took a picture of it as it did not have the brand name on it but it has a symbol of a circle with like an arrow head pointing to the middle of the circle. Then I checked her GPS She has codes for the places she has been where she renamed them like jjkkii. I found the street name and location. She had it named like a dozen times like qqqllll etc. they all go to the same location but it would not show the exact address, just the street name.
> 
> I imagine this is where she was going. It is a very upscale neighborhood in Delaware.
> 
> Went to church the pastor is a man's man and gave me a big bear hug. It was a nice small church in center city. It really spoke to me (the service that is). My oldest BIL has been bugging me to go there for a year and I glad I went. I talked to my BIL and he said we are rooting for you.
> 
> He said his sister has headed down a road to hell and he is really concerned.
> 
> He uses the idea of compartmentalization. He said now the walls are broken down and there is just one big room with just her in it with the nice her and the evil her. He said that is why she is so angry.


Is it a Motrola?


----------



## Thorburn

warlock07 said:


> He got into an internet fight with WyshIKnew in one of the threads


Oh, boy. He was a long time friend. Hope he can get back on.


----------



## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> He said now the walls are broken down and there is just one big room with just her in it with the nice her and the evil her. He said that is why she is so angry.


Wow, I love that description.


----------



## Tony55

When people wonder how they will make it through the day, week, month, etc, think about this quote from the book, 'No Easy Day', written by Mark Owen (real name, Matt Bissonnette, Navy SEAL, bin Laden mission), in which he wrote:


CHAPTER 1
"It was the only way I could control my anxiety. In 1998, I’d made it through Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL, or BUD/S, by focusing on *just making it to the next meal*. It didn't matter if I couldn't feel my arms as we hoisted logs over our heads or if the cold surf soaked me to the core. It wasn't going to last forever. There is a saying: _“How do you eat an elephant?”_ The answer is simple: *“One bite at a time.”* Only my bites were separated by meals: *Make it to breakfast, train hard until lunch, and focus until dinner. Repeat*"


CHAPTER 12
"*I knew if you focused on the whole thing, you cracked*. The only way to survive was getting through the day *one meal at a time*. Now, hours before the biggest mission of my career, I was just focused on *getting to breakfast*".​
T


----------



## 3putt

SaltInWound said:


> Wow, I love that description.


Same here. Hammer meet nail.


----------



## Thorburn

MattMatt said:


> Is it a Motrola?


Similar but not quite.


----------



## Jasel

Thorburn said:


> Made it back to my new house. My WS came down looked me in the eyes and walked outside. Still has anger but there was another look there that I could not get. It was if she was waiting for me to say something. She really gave me a good look like she was trying to read my expression.


I read this and thought










In all seriousness though, you don't think your wife is dangerous do you??


----------



## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> When people wonder how they will make it through the day, week, month, etc, think about this quote from the book, 'No Easy Day', written by Mark Owen (real name, Matt Bissonnette, Navy SEAL, bin Laden mission), in which he wrote:
> 
> 
> CHAPTER 1
> "It was the only way I could control my anxiety. In 1998, I’d made it through Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL, or BUD/S, by focusing on *just making it to the next meal*. It didn't matter if I couldn't feel my arms as we hoisted logs over our heads or if the cold surf soaked me to the core. It wasn't going to last forever. There is a saying: _“How do you eat an elephant?”_ The answer is simple: *“One bite at a time.”* Only my bites were separated by meals: *Make it to breakfast, train hard until lunch, and focus until dinner. Repeat*"
> 
> 
> CHAPTER 12
> "*I knew if you focused on the whole thing, you cracked*. The only way to survive was getting through the day *one meal at a time*. Now, hours before the biggest mission of my career, I was just focused on *getting to breakfast*".​
> T


Hitting me hard right now. Found out my son talked to my WS and he did not say anything until I brought it up.

He said mom said she screwed up and is messed up. Trying to get another job, work on refinishing and trying to get help.

He said his mother says she will not be interrogated.


----------



## Thorburn

Need to talk to someone on the phone. I am going to call a friend.


----------



## Jasel

Thorburn said:


> He said his mother says she will not be interrogated.


Probably doesn't want to be forced to face what she's done for all these years. Not after she's spend a significant portion of her life compartmentalizing it all.


----------



## jim123

Thorburn said:


> Hitting me hard right now. Found out my son talked to my WS and he did not say anything until I brought it up.
> 
> He said mom said she screwed up and is messed up. Trying to get another job, work on refinishing and trying to get help.
> 
> He said his mother says she will not be interrogated.


Do not put the kids in the middle or make them take sides. She is still their mom


----------



## happyman64

> He said mom said she screwed up and is messed up. Trying to get another job, work on refinishing and trying to get help.
> 
> He said his mother says she will not be interrogated.


So does this change anything for Thorburn?

She destroyed Reconciliation.
She has lied to you over and over.

She cannot be honest let alone communicate with you.

What are you thinking? Tell us if you have time.


----------



## Thorburn

happyman64 said:


> So does this change anything for Thorburn?
> 
> She destroyed Reconciliation.
> She has lied to you over and over.
> 
> She cannot be honest let alone communicate with you.
> 
> What are you thinking? Tell us if you have time.





jim123 said:


> Do not put the kids in the middle or make them take sides. She is still their mom


You are right about the kids jim123. It is hard because I felt a little betrayed (my problem not my sons and I do get it). I know my youngest son's feelings. Some of the Veterans I work with had some pretty bad mothers. And they walked away and never worked anything out with them. Some carry guilt and others said they had to do it for themselves and never looked back. When their toxic mother was out of their life they were able to grow. 

happy man my feelings right now are torn. I just got off the phone with a good friend, a Vietnam Vet who is a social worker and RN where I use to work. He said your wife is an addict and there is nothing that I can do for her. He said he was an addict years ago, got straight and then started 12 step programs. He said after 20 years he still follows the program. He said this is not about me. But he said when he lost his wife to cancer four years ago he said it sucked. He said for me it is harder because it is like a death but my WS is still living here. He said you love her and it hurts. He said the love may never go away but you can't control her. My youngest son said, dad, what are you going to do, chain her in the basement? She will do what she wants.

I want her back.

Yet, I hear the crap, see the crap. Know she was not there for me, many times.

Intellectually I am detaching. But my emotions are still wrapped around a woman I loved with all my heart. I see a broken messed up woman that I would say to anyone who is in the same boat you got to leave her and move on.

It sucks. It hurts. Not to hear her voice, not to feel her beside me in bed.

So tonight I am going to pray, read some scriptures and focus on getting my mind clear. 

I pretty much talked it out, here and with two friends.

I read enough posts here to see people make it and I know I will. I know enough to know it will get worse before it gets better and my goal is to end up a better person who triumphed over adversity. 

Right now I am in the fight and it is chaotic because the outcome is unknown and I don't know what else will be brought into the fight.


----------



## SaltInWound

Keep doing what you have been. She needs the consequences.


----------



## bfree

Thorburn said:


> You are right about the kids jim123. It is hard because I felt a little betrayed (my problem not my sons and I do get it). I know my youngest son's feelings. Some of the Veterans I work with had some pretty bad mothers. And they walked away and never worked anything out with them. Some carry guilt and others said they had to do it for themselves and never looked back. When their toxic mother was out of their life they were able to grow.
> 
> happy man my feelings right now are torn. I just got off the phone with a good friend, a Vietnam Vet who is a social worker and RN where I use to work. He said your wife is an addict and there is nothing that I can do for her. He said he was an addict years ago, got straight and then started 12 step programs. He said after 20 years he still follows the program. He said this is not about me. But he said when he lost his wife to cancer four years ago he said it sucked. He said for me it is harder because it is like a death but my WS is still living here. He said you love her and it hurts. He said the love may never go away but you can't control her. My youngest son said, dad, what are you going to do, chain her in the basement? She will do what she wants.
> 
> I want her back.
> 
> Yet, I hear the crap, see the crap. Know she was not there for me, many times.
> 
> Intellectually I am detaching. But my emotions are still wrapped around a woman I loved with all my heart. I see a broken messed up woman that I would say to anyone who is in the same boat you got to leave her and move on.
> 
> It sucks. It hurts. Not to hear her voice, not to feel her beside me in bed.
> 
> So tonight I am going to pray, read some scriptures and focus on getting my mind clear.
> 
> I pretty much talked it out, here and with two friends.
> 
> I read enough posts here to see people make it and I know I will. I know enough to know it will get worse before it gets better and my goal is to end up a better person who triumphed over adversity.
> 
> Right now I am in the fight and it is chaotic because *the outcome is unknown* and I don't know what else will be brought into the fight.


Actually I have to disagree. You already know the outcome. The only unknown is what path and how long it will take you to get there.


----------



## Thorburn

OK, I just wrote a lament. Now I am laughing. My WS just walked by me and she looks like death. I got bummed out that she has a new FB with her and the dog and her pictures are all happy. She even friend requested a guy from two years ago that I got mad about because he secretly gave her his phone number told her when to call him so his wife would not find out and they were going to hook up near our home (he lives hours away) the next weekend. 

So she is reconnecting. 

Anyway, I was bummed. Now I am not. She looks truly miserable.

If this is the life she wants to choose so be it. I can see she is not happy about it.


----------



## turnera

Thorburn said:


> Hitting me hard right now. Found out my son talked to my WS and he did not say anything until I brought it up.
> 
> He said mom said she screwed up and is messed up. Trying to get another job, work on refinishing and trying to get help.
> 
> He said his mother says she will not be interrogated.


 Does that change anything?


----------



## 3putt

Thorburn said:


> She looks truly miserable.


This comment from her brother is becoming more prophetic by the moment.



Thorburn said:


> He said his sister has headed down a road to hell and he is really concerned.
> 
> He uses the idea of compartmentalization. He said now the walls are broken down and there is just one big room with just her in it with the nice her and the evil her. He said that is why she is so angry.


It's fun being an addict when no one is watching. However, once you turn the lights on in the crack house for all to see, it stops being fun..it gets real. Of course she's miserable....you turned the lights on and exposed her for all she is for all to see. 

Well, tough. You reap what you sow.

Chow down on this sh!t sandwich of your own making WW of TBurn. Just don't complain to anyone but the chef.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Does that change anything?


No. Lol, it is just my way of dealing with this crap. Getting it out there. At times I wish I could just focus on what is important right now instead of getting into the weeds and trying to figure stuff out and letting things that I can't control bug me.

This is a process for me and I will get there. Believe me, I will get there. Still too raw and the pain is unbelievable at times. But the fact that I am not engaging her is something I am very proud of being able to continue doing.

Also feeling good that my goals were all met this weekend (except doing the laundry). Yea, I will get the laundry done tomorrow.


----------



## Thorburn

3putt said:


> This comment from her brother is becoming more prophetic by the moment.
> 
> 
> It's fun being an addict when no one is watching. However, once you turn the lights on in the crack house for all to see, it stops being fun..it gets real. Of course she's miserable....you turned the lights on and exposed her for all she is for all to see.
> 
> Well, tough. You reap what you sow.
> 
> Chow down on this sh!t sandwich of your own making WW of TBurn. Just don't complain to the chef.


Omg. LOL. Got to dust off my chef's hat.


----------



## arbitrator

Thorburn said:


> *I want her back.*
> 
> *It sucks. It hurts. Not to hear her voice, not to feel her beside me in bed*.
> 
> *So tonight I am going to pray, read some scriptures and focus on getting my mind clear.*
> 
> 
> *I read enough posts here to see people make it and I know I will. I know enough to know it will get worse before it gets better and my goal is to end up a better person who triumphed over adversity.*
> 
> *Right now I am in the fight and it is chaotic because the outcome is unknown and I don't know what else will be brought into the fight.*


Thor: I read your words and feel your pain. The difference in your situation and mine is that you found out about most everything while you were still living in the marriage with her.

With me, I was totally blinded by love and trust ~ I just knew in my heart that she could never do anything like that to me. But I unexpectedly found out about her exploits after several months of separation and harshly learned that my STBXW had been sleeping with both me and the OM, while we were still living in our house together. I just felt so damn stupid and so grossly unclean!

Even to this moment, I still have heartaches for all of the love and the promise that I perceived that I had in her, and she in me. Like you, I miss the "old her" lying right next to me in bed at night and alternating between her loving teasing and my feeling of her heartfelt love. I am truly sickened over the loss of promise for us as a couple and for two entire families.

I know that she will never adequately explain any reasoning for her actions, if at all. Maybe, in time, she will open up and confess to God, but then again, maybe she will continue to wallow in her deceitful state of denial! But much like you, I must keep placing my faith in God and in my and my sons' future~ not hers!

The memory of her good times rolls into view and the resulting pain still intermittantly crops up and kills me at times, but the "tough love" advice that I've been given here by all of my TAM brothers and sisters has steered me in the right direction ~ just as it will do for you!

Always remember that God will never put a burden on you that you absolutely cannot endure. He loves us that much and will see to it that we, in the end, will come to perservere!


----------



## Shaggy

Thorburn,

Things you now know:
1. street/ Neighborhood she's pickup up and dropping OM in.
2. Days of the week his wife isnt around.

I'd suggest borrowing a car and hanging out for an afternoon on that street and watch for her vehicle. You want the address and a photograph of POSOM because you are going to be mailing the picture of him and your wife and part of the var recording to his wife.


----------



## Thorburn

Jasel said:


> I read this and thought
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In all seriousness though, you don't think your wife is dangerous do you??


I don't think so. I don't know how unstable she is. She was never violent. I do sleep with my door locked but she could get in through the other door (we have two doors to my bedroom). I just put a board against that one. I being sleeping so soundly she could come in with a chain saw and cut my head off before I woke up. 

So, in all seriousness I don't think she will do anything violent, but I don't take chances.


----------



## Chaparral

SomedayDig said:


> Uh oh...what did Banned-it do this time?!


* OMG *


----------



## spudster

Thorburn is a trained warrior. 

His WW knows this. Short of poisoning him there is little she could do to him. 

And besides, she has her eyes on getting half his military retirement. She's not going to do anything to jeapordize that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

arbitrator said:


> Thor: I read your words and feel your pain. The difference in your situation and mine is that you found out about most everything while you were still living in the marriage with her.
> 
> With me, I was totally blinded by love and trust ~ I just knew in my heart that she could never do anything like that to me. But I unexpectedly found out about her exploits after several months of separation and harshly learned that my STBXW had been sleeping with both me and the OM, while we were still living in our house together. I just felt so damn stupid and so grossly unclean!
> 
> Even to this moment, I still have heartaches for all of the love and the promise that I perceived that I had in her, and she in me. Like you, I miss the "old her" lying right next to me in bed at night and alternating between her loving teasing and my feeling of her heartfelt love. I am truly sickened over the loss of promise for us as a couple and for two entire families.
> 
> I know that she will never adequately explain any reasoning for her actions, if at all. Maybe, in time, she will open up and confess to God, but then again, maybe she will continue to wallow in her deceitful state of denial! But much like you, I must keep placing my faith in God and in my and my sons' future~ not hers!
> 
> The memory of her good times rolls into view and the resulting pain still intermittantly crops up and kills me at times, but the "tough love" advice that I've been given here by all of my TAM brothers and sisters has steered me in the right direction ~ just as it will do for you!
> 
> Always remember that God will never put a burden on you that you absolutely cannot endure. He loves us that much and will see to it that we, in the end, will come to perservere!


I do believe that God always has a way out when we are overwhelmed. That is where I am at right now. Getting back into fellowship and leaning on Him.

Went out last night with a friend and he said focus on yourself and your relationship with God. He said it is not a guarantee that things will get better, in fact he said it could get worse. But he said it is like the prophet who was speaking the truth and no one was listening. He saw the destruction of Israel coming and really did not want to be the spokesman. But he was doing what God wanted him to do and his life sucked. He said if God is for us, who can be against us. He said that is where you put your trust.

For those who do not share my theological views the point I got and am trying to focus on is attitude. Don't give up. Focus on those things you can control. Live a good life. Take care of yourself. Reach out to friends when things seem overwhelming.

I had a very rough morning. Just started praying from the Psalms. Talked to an old Army buddy, he called me. The guy I thought my wife had sex with back in 2001. He said nothing ever happened. I spent a good year with him working beside him and then we went to Iraq together. I think he is telling me the truth. 

Today I have several goals actually two. If I get them done it will be another weight lifted.

My son told me to stop checking on mom. She will do what she wants and we can't stop her. 

So as I disengage I will work on that as well. He is right. He said, dad there are many eyes on her right now, and if she is still messing around it is on her, not you. He said, let her go and if she gets straight it is something she has to do.

Man I needed that. I have to stop proving more stuff and let it go.


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> I want her back.
> 
> Yet, I hear the crap, see the crap. Know she was not there for me, many times.
> 
> Intellectually I am detaching. But my emotions are still wrapped around a woman I loved with all my heart. I see a broken messed up woman that I would say to anyone who is in the same boat you got to leave her and move on.


Thorburn, ultimately it's your decision to make. I personally couldn't continue in a marriage if I discovered my wife had a secret rendezvous with another man, I wouldn't even care what they did, just doing something secretly with an OM would be enough for me, but, I don't expect everyone to think the way I do and some people have a higher tolerance level and are able to work through such things.

Here's the thing, you love her, you have 30 years invested with her, can you live with what you know? If you believe you can, then I certainly wouldn't fault you for trying to set the marriage right; I'm just not sure it can be done.

Let's assume you were considering reconciliation; here are some of the things you'd need to work out:

Does she love you?
Does she want to stay married?
Is she willing to tell you the whole history of her inappropriate interactions with men? Not just sex, but all situations in which she met or arranged to meet other men? All of them, names and dates?
If so, is she willing to come clean to all other family members? Maybe even your pastor and friends?
Would she be willing to attempt to explain to you why she thought she's done this over and over again?
Would she be willing to see a psychiatrist (not a marriage counselor, a medical doctor) to explore why she's been doing this?
Would she be willing to make the marriage transparent?
If she were to answer no to any of those questions, then there's no way on this planet you could expect anything near a "fresh start" in your marriage. On the other hand, if she agreed to these basics, and you were inclined to give it another shot, then I certainly wouldn't fault you for trying. The problem at that point wouldn't be if she was up to her old tricks (although that would have to be watched closely), the problem would be living day in and day out with a woman who has deceived you so many times that I don't know if your mind can ever wrap itself around the enormity of it all; I'm not sure you can ever move to a better and more secure place with her.

So, just in case your entertaining the thought, don't be afraid to admit it here, at least here you have un-involved third parties who will try and keep you on your toes and make sure she isn't feeding you a line of bullsh1t.

T


----------



## bfree

Thorburn,

Your son is a very wise man.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Thorburn said:


> OK, I just wrote a lament. Now I am laughing. My WS just walked by me and she looks like death. I got bummed out that she has a new FB with her and the dog and her pictures are all happy. She even friend requested a guy from two years ago that I got mad about because he secretly gave her his phone number told her when to call him so his wife would not find out and they were going to hook up near our home (he lives hours away) the next weekend.
> 
> So she is reconnecting.
> 
> Anyway, I was bummed. Now I am not. She looks truly miserable.
> 
> If this is the life she wants to choose so be it. I can see she is not happy about it.



anyway you can give a heads up to the guy's wife?


----------



## Thorburn

Almostrecovered said:


> anyway you can give a heads up to the guy's wife?


All I know is the approximate location. It might just be the pick up location. There is also a large mall there so he may not live in that upscale neighborhood. I do know that by her GPS she was there several times.


----------



## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> Thorburn, ultimately it's your decision to make. I personally couldn't continue in a marriage if I discovered my wife had a secret rendezvous with another man, I wouldn't even care what they did, just doing something secretly with an OM would be enough for me, but, I don't expect everyone to think the way I do and some people have a higher tolerance level and are able to work through such things.
> 
> Here's the thing, you love her, you have 30 years invested with her, can you live with what you know? If you believe you can, then I certainly wouldn't fault you for trying to set the marriage right; I'm just not sure it can be done.
> 
> Let's assume you were considering reconciliation; here are some of the things you'd need to work out:
> 
> Does she love you?
> Does she want to stay married?
> Is she willing to tell you the whole history of her inappropriate interactions with men? Not just sex, but all situations in which she met or arranged to meet other men? All of them, names and dates?
> If so, is she willing to come clean to all other family members? Maybe even your pastor and friends?
> Would she be willing to attempt to explain to you why she thought she's done this over and over again?
> Would she be willing to see a psychiatrist (not a marriage counselor, a medical doctor) to explore why she's been doing this?
> Would she be willing to make the marriage transparent?
> If she were to answer no to any of those questions, then there's no way on this planet you could expect anything near a "fresh start" in your marriage. On the other hand, if she agreed to these basics, and you were inclined to give it another shot, then I certainly wouldn't fault you for trying. The problem at that point wouldn't be if she was up to her old tricks (although that would have to be watched closely), the problem would be living day in and day out with a woman who has deceived you so many times that I don't know if your mind can ever wrap itself around the enormity of it all; I'm not sure you can ever move to a better and more secure place with her.
> 
> So, just in case your entertaining the thought, don't be afraid to admit it here, at least here you have un-involved third parties who will try and keep you on your toes and make sure she isn't feeding you a line of bullsh1t.
> 
> T


If all the above were answered yes. Without hesitation, without lies. I would say I might consider it. It is like my oldest BIL says, it would have to take something massive on my WS's part. 

But I can't sit here and think of the what ifs. What if she truely changes? etc. I gave her enough opportunities in the past and she never did it.

I will continue to detach and not engage her. 

I have to plan to accomplish those tasks I can control and at this point that is all I can do.


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> If all the above were answered yes. Without hesitation, without lies. I would say I might consider it. It is like my oldest BIL says, it would have to take something massive on my WS's part.
> 
> But I can't sit here and think of the what ifs. What if she truely changes? etc. I gave her enough opportunities in the past and she never did it.
> 
> I will continue to detach and not engage her.
> 
> I have to plan to accomplish those tasks I can control and at this point that is all I can do.


Ok, good deal. I just wanted to make sure you knew you'd get support either way you go.

T


----------



## Tony55

It's surprising that during that whole recording, neither of them use a first name (at least not that I can hear). I might have heard the name Jimmy once.

T


----------



## Thorburn

Today has been the hardest yet. Felt like I been hit by a freight train. Typically this pain lasts an hour or so and I can find some kind of peace. Today it hit me first thing this morning and has not gone away. I ate a light breakfast and just had a decent meal. Everyone says I am losing weight. I been losing weight for a while and had a goal set for myself to get there in a few months, now I am just getting there a little quicker. 

Normally my WS and I would talk during the day, in the morning and evenings. I miss that quite a bit. 

I am OK with this as I know it is part of grief, but is sucks.

The old life is dead, gone. The laughter, the jokes, the plans, all in the past.

The present has no joy. It is dark and gloomy. Yet I know there will be light. They say this too shall pass and it will. I just wish it would hurry up and get here already.


----------



## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> It's surprising that during that whole recording, neither of them use a first name (at least not that I can hear). I might have heard the name Jimmy once.
> 
> T


I did not hear any I love you either. She was just looking for someone to vent to and to have sex. She was never looking for a long term relationship. She never planned on leaving me.

For her it is all about the fun and excitement. I heard that explanation from my WS two or three times over the last year.


----------



## SevenEight

Man, I am really sorry to hear your story. Less than a month ago I found out that my wife of less than one year (5 years in our relationship) was having an affair and doing all sorts of other extremely hurtful and unfaithful things behind my back. Some days are absolute sh1t lately. I can distract myself for parts of the day sometimes, but the pain always comes back and feels like it hits even harder because I was feeling good for moments. I know what you mean when you say you want it to get better faster. I wish I knew how to do that.

The only things that have been keeping me sane are talking with others - friends, family, a counselor, this forum - keeping busy, exercising.

I also have lost some weight - around xmas time was around 205, which is the heaviest I've ever been, but now am at around 175-180. Not the healthiest diet plan, but man is it effective.

Sorry for your pain, I really am.


----------



## SaltInWound

Add me to the list of dramatic weight loss. I have gone from 175-120 since end of October. I figure at this rate, I only have a safety cushion of 1 more month. I like the new thin me, but I would rather have my sanity back.

ETA: When my husband tells his [email protected] that I am a fat *****, I know he is lying. Of course, he still needs to look in the mirror to see the frank and beans. He has low self esteem. It will probably get worse when he finally sees that I look like I did when we got married 22 years ago. Add a level on my sex rank! He can continue to open his wallet to attract.


----------



## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> Hitting me hard right now. Found out my son talked to my WS and he did not say anything until I brought it up.
> 
> He said mom said she screwed up and is messed up. Trying to get another job, work on refinishing and trying to get help.
> 
> He said his mother says she will not be interrogated.


That's okay, she doesn't have to be interogated. She is doing a fine job of handing it all to you on a plate without you having to ask.


----------



## Thorburn

SevenEight said:


> Man, I am really sorry to hear your story. Less than a month ago I found out that my wife of less than one year (5 years in our relationship) was having an affair and doing all sorts of other extremely hurtful and unfaithful things behind my back. Some days are absolute sh1t lately. I can distract myself for parts of the day sometimes, but the pain always comes back and feels like it hits even harder because I was feeling good for moments. I know what you mean when you say you want it to get better faster. I wish I knew how to do that.
> 
> The only things that have been keeping me sane are talking with others - friends, family, a counselor, this forum - keeping busy, exercising.
> 
> I also have lost some weight - around xmas time was around 205, which is the heaviest I've ever been, but now am at around 175-180. Not the healthiest diet plan, but man is it effective.
> 
> Sorry for your pain, I really am.





SaltInWound said:


> Add me to the list of dramatic weight loss. I have gone from 175-120 since end of October. I figure at this rate, I only have a safety cushion of 1 more month. I like the new thin me, but I would rather have my sanity back.
> 
> ETA: When my husband tells his [email protected] that I am a fat *****, I know he is lying. Of course, he still needs to look in the mirror to see the frank and beans. He has low self esteem. It will probably get worse when he finally sees that I look like I did when we got married 22 years ago. Add a level on my sex rank! He can continue to open his wallet to attract.


It is a hard hill to climb. Reminds me of Christian in Pilgrim's Progress where he takes the difficult road, instead of going th way of danger or destruction. Taking the difficult road proved to be the right road for him.

So, yes my friends it is difficult but we will get to a better place in the end.


----------



## Affaircare

Thorburn said:


> Today has been the hardest yet. Felt like I been hit by a freight train. Typically this pain lasts an hour or so and I can find some kind of peace. Today it hit me first thing this morning and has not gone away. I ate a light breakfast and just had a decent meal. Everyone says I am losing weight. I been losing weight for a while and had a goal set for myself to get there in a few months, now I am just getting there a little quicker.
> 
> Normally my WS and I would talk during the day, in the morning and evenings. I miss that quite a bit.
> 
> I am OK with this as I know it is part of grief, but is sucks.
> 
> The old life is dead, gone. The laughter, the jokes, the plans, all in the past.
> 
> The present has no joy. It is dark and gloomy. Yet I know there will be light. They say this too shall pass and it will. I just wish it would hurry up and get here already.


Thorburn~

I have just two things to tell you. You're a pro, so I know that your head knows these things, but it's entirely different when you actually have to live through them. 

#1 It is normal to grieve *deeply[/B**]. It's my experience that people often are terrified of dark feelings such as DEEP sadness, SERIOUS depression, or DIRE anger. It hits like a ton of bricks and feels so intense that you think it might just become part of "Who You Are" forever. The key point to remember is that when people go through a major, lifechanging event like this, it is natural and normal to feel some pretty dark things. I think I'd be more worried about you if you didn't feel some Dark, Dark feelings! But just because you feel some pretty rough stuff right now, that doesn't mean you're a bad person or a bad man or a bad husband or any of that. You are involved in a situation that actually IS painful and sad and depressing, so if you feel something pretty dark, just remind yourself it won't last forever and it won't necessarily define you or even damage you. It's situational...and honestly if you face it and work through it, you'll probably be a lot better, stronger person. So it sucks and it hurts and it's hard...but feel lit. 

#2 Grieve for the future you thought your marriage once had. I call this the "grieving for the marriage you *thought* you had but didn't" and honestly this was the most painful part for me. Now, at the time I was young(er) and thought "Oh that happens to other people but not us. We're special. We would never be unfaithful" and I thought we were a happy family and had a strong marriage. Facing the truth was hard. We were not special. It did happen to us. We were not happy. Our marriage was not strong. Worst of all, I had something to do with the downfall! I wasn't blameless. In real life, spouses do not "complete one another" and we can not get so entangled that it's like we're connected at the hip. He doesn't meet all my needs flawlessly. All that stuff is just ... well it's a lie! And I had to let the lie die and grieve the loss of what I *thought* I had. 

For your, Thorburn, I can tell from your writing that you had dreams and hopes for a future together with her. You committed to her and only her, and had this image of retirement or grandkids or whatever, and your dreams sort of encouraged you to keep going for the future. I would suggest that you think about and maybe make a list of each hope and dream you had in your marriage, and then grieve each one. They just are not going to be like you had envisioned them. BUT...know that your dreams and hopes are not dead. You'll recreate them again with someone else, or even adjust them and make your own dreams.*


----------



## Thorburn

My oldest BIL just called. He said he is trying to form an alliance to do an intervention. He said he finally convinced his youngest brother about the truth of this. My youngest BIL was a youth pastor before he became a millionaire due to his three year old's death. He bought into the lie that it was all my fault. My youngest BIL said my WS spent several days with them about a week ago and he said he and his wife were exhausted for days after she left. He said she has become evil. Confessed to having sex with "men" (plural), cried about it and that was it. He said, that it was like a fake confession with fake tears.

My oldest BIL is very concerned about his sister, (my WS) and he said the family has to unite on this.

He talked to my middle SIL and he said that my WS talked to her the other day for an hour and my SIL said, it is Mac's fault. My BIL said, hold it, Mac did not cause your sister to do this for 18 years. She is in darkness and whatever Mac did is pretty small potatoes compared to what our sister did and is doing.

He said he is in a battle for the soul of his sister. He said, he now has four family members on board. The oldest sister does not want anything to do with my WS and my BIL says he will get her on board. He said the middle sister is fragile. 

My BIL wants me to meet with my youngest BIL and middle SIL face to face so they can ask me questions. I said I will do that. I think my youngest BIL wants to listen to the recording. I will let him do that.

My WS's family has always been her life even over me. And now they are turning or have turned on her. They are seeing the evil in her.

My BIL wants my youngest son involved in the intervention and I gave my BIL some websites on folks that do this. I said, I have done them and they can be very unpleasant but everybody has to be on the same page and follow a written script and it would be helpful to have arraignments made for placement in a facility that deal with sexual addictions. 

He said he wants to wait for his middle brother (he is a missionary) to come home from South Africa in a week or so. My middle BIL is Pentecostal leaning so it will be interesting.


----------



## Mike11

Enabling Family members are like lifelines for Addicts take them away and all their fantasy world is crumbling


----------



## Affaircare

Thorburn~

Bear in mind that the middle SIL may not be willing/able to face the truth any more than your WS can: namely that even if you were an absolutely abusive, violent, rage-a-holic jerk of a husband, that does not then justify her choice to be unfaithful. 

See, I was physically abused (as in beaten every day with a broom handle) and mentally and verbally abused as a child -- and naturally this created some confusion within me about what "Love" actually is. In my first marriage, I married a physically and mentally and verbally abusive man because to be honest it's what I knew and what I was attracted to! [I'm not saying it was healthy (lol) just reporting the facts.] Anyway, what used to happen is that he'd get abusive and boy I'd rage and verbally attack him right back!! Then I went to counseling and went to an anger management class for women and you know what I discovered? When he gets abusive it is reasonable for me to remove myself from that situation (get away) and it's healthy even to state "That is not okay with me" BUT IT IS NOT HEALTHY TO JOIN IN!! That part was on me--I was personally responsible for my choice to scream back and rage back!

If your middle SIL has to face the fact that her sister is responsible for her choice to be sexual with others--whether you were a monster or not--it MAY mean she'd have to face that fact in her own life!! 

Soooo...don't be too discouraged or too disappointed if some members of her family are unwilling or unable to stand up to her and tell her to do the mature thing. Doing so would require them to assess themselves as well and well... frankly lots of people don't have the big brass ones to look themselves in the eye.


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## Thorburn

Affaircare said:


> Thorburn~
> 
> Bear in mind that the middle SIL may not be willing/able to face the truth any more than your WS can: namely that even if you were an absolutely abusive, violent, rage-a-holic jerk of a husband, that does not then justify her choice to be unfaithful.
> 
> See, I was physically abused (as in beaten every day with a broom handle) and mentally and verbally abused as a child -- and naturally this created some confusion within me about what "Love" actually is. In my first marriage, I married a physically and mentally and verbally abusive man because to be honest it's what I knew and what I was attracted to! [I'm not saying it was healthy (lol) just reporting the facts.] Anyway, what used to happen is that he'd get abusive and boy I'd rage and verbally attack him right back!! Then I went to counseling and went to an anger management class for women and you know what I discovered? When he gets abusive it is reasonable for me to remove myself from that situation (get away) and it's healthy even to state "That is not okay with me" BUT IT IS NOT HEALTHY TO JOIN IN!! That part was on me--I was personally responsible for my choice to scream back and rage back!
> 
> If your middle SIL has to face the fact that her sister is responsible for her choice to be sexual with others--whether you were a monster or not--it MAY mean she'd have to face that fact in her own life!!
> 
> Soooo...don't be too discouraged or too disappointed if some members of her family are unwilling or unable to stand up to her and tell her to do the mature thing. Doing so would require them to assess themselves as well and well... frankly lots of people don't have the big brass ones to look themselves in the eye.


Her middle sister and my WS have a history. They were both involved in my WS's A in 1999. So you have a valid point. She is dealing with the loss of her husband and when I talked to her a few weeks ago she did tell me that her deceased husband said he believed my WS was cheating on me when I was in Iraq.


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## Machiavelli

Thorburn, it's good that her family sees the truth and wants to bring her to repentance. I pray they are successful and it's a true repentance for once. Just remember, however that works out, your way is forward and she cannot follow.


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## Affaircare

I could be waaaaaaay off here, but just based on what you've written and those who are closer to you have written (like Tony) I'd say this is a pattern she began a long time ago and intended to probably continue forever. Namely, you were the one to meet her foundation/solid/finances needs, and she got the "affair zing" by meeting guys, flirting, feeling desired and having sex...then moving on. She probably didn't figure you would ever find out, much less care, much less LEAVE HER! 

This is just my own very humble opinion, but to me it is heart-breakingly sad she didn't take the time to build those feelings with you. Okay you don't get the "affair zing" infatuation feelings, but the rest--the flirting, feeling desired and having sex--she sure could have built with you and had it all in one package AND the security! *sigh* Breaks your heart, doesn't it? I'm so sad for her.


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## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> Taking the difficult road proved to be the right road for him.
> 
> So, yes my friends it is difficult but we will get to a better place in the end.


Crossroads.

Movie: Scent of a Woman:
_"Now I have come to the crossroads in my life. I always knew what the right path was. Without exception, I knew. But I never took it. You know why? It was too damn hard. Now here's Charlie. He's come to the crossroads. He has chosen a path. It's the right path. It's a path made of principle -- that leads to character."_​
T


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## Jasel

Are you going to be part of the intervention Thor??


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## Shaggy

Your wife has made cheating and sex with multiple partners part of her daily life for maybe the last 18 years. What exactly is and intervention going to accomplish except get her to lie more and go more underground.

Getting caught red handed last year habit slowed her one bit, and even now she's still doing it.

She's made her choice , she wants an open marriage.

Btw, what would her reaction be to you being with other women? I'm curious how she would react as she sees sex as just sex.


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## Shaggy

See I'm coming to think of her as not being broken, but instead as not having the values the rest of us have and she lacks the honesty to say hear true values.


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## spudster

I tend to agree with Shaggy. She's not broken as far as she's concerned. In her narcissistic mind Thorburn is the broken one. And now he is turning everyone against her. He's the evil one.

Intervention for a sociopath is like telling a clinically depressed person to cheer up, or a pedophile to look at age appropriate porn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

Jasel said:


> Are you going to be part of the intervention Thor??


Not sure what will happen. Letting my BIL handle it.


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## spudster

Thorburn said:


> Her middle sister and my WS have a history. They were both involved in my WS's A in 1999. So you have a valid point. She is dealing with the loss of her husband and when I talked to her a few weeks ago she did tell me that her deceased husband said he believed my WS was cheating on me when I was in Iraq.


Your wife had an affair in 1999? Why didn't you kick her to the curb then? 

Hate to rub salt in the wound Thorburn but it really seems like the hell you are living in now is one of your own making. I wonder if you felt guilt for leaving your WW stateside so many times while going on deployments and maybe that guilt is what made you tolerate her bad behavior?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spudster

Well, I guess you had two boys and couldn't divorce her. Who would have taken care of them while you were deployed? Man I feel for career military people and the crap they have to put up with in life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

spudster said:


> I tend to agree with Shaggy. She's not broken as far as she's concerned. In her narcissistic mind Thorburn is the broken one. And now he is turning everyone against her. He's the evil one.
> 
> Intervention for a sociopath is like telling a clinically depressed person to cheer up, or a pedophile to look at age appropriate porn.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are correct in the way she thinks. She told her sister that I am acting crazy, she told her this the other day as reported by my BIL.

I don't agree on the intervention analogy. Interventions can be very effective. In my WS's case her family was everything. I am not saying it will work but I have seen where they have worked very well.


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## Thorburn

spudster said:


> Your wife had an affair in 1999? Why didn't you kick her to the curb then?
> 
> Hate to rub salt in the wound Thorburn but it really seems like the hell you are living in now is one of your own making. I wonder if you felt guilt for leaving your WW stateside so many times while going on deployments and maybe that guilt is what made you tolerate her bad behavior?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In 99 I almost did. Her father intervened and I loved that man. He asked me to forgive her and take her back. It was only because of him and a promise I made to him later that really kept me with my WS. He knew his daughter had issues and we talked about it and he asked me to take care of her.


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## happyman64

> Your wife has made cheating and sex with multiple partners part of her daily life for maybe the last 18 years. What exactly is and intervention going to accomplish except get her to lie more and go more underground.
> 
> Getting caught red handed last year habit slowed her one bit, and even now she's still doing it.
> 
> She's made her choice , she wants an open marriage.
> 
> Btw,* what would her reaction be to you being with other women? I'm curious how she would react as she sees sex as just sex.[/*


Thorburn

I know you are religious. I am too. But Shaggy makes a point.

I am not condoning an open marriage. I feel they never work when the bond is originally made between two. That is my personal opinion.

But have you ever asked your wife is she looking for an open marriage right to her face?

Then followed up immediately by you asking her if she is fine if you go have sex with other women as well?

I wonder what type of answers she would give you.

I certainly think these questions would make her reflect on your current situation that you both find yourself in.

And I am not sure if she would give you an honest answer.

HM64


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## spudster

Thorburn said:


> You are correct in the way she thinks. She told her sister that I am acting crazy, she told her this the other day as reported by my BIL.
> 
> I don't agree on the intervention analogy. Interventions can be very effective. In my WS's case her family was everything. I am not saying it will work but I have seen where they have worked very well.


I have some experience with the psychology world in that I used to be a case worker for a county mental health agency. Every psychologist I worked with told me that sociopaths, BPDers and people with sexual addictions are extremely difficult to treat and that in the case of sexual predators some types of therapy can actually make them worse. Hence my only working two years in that organization before I bailed. Ha ha!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

spudster said:


> I have some experience with the psychology world in that I used to be a case worker for a county mental health agency. Every psychologist I worked with told me that sociopaths, BPDers and people with sexual addictions are extremely difficult to treat and that in the case of sexual predators some types of therapy can actually make them worse. Hence my only working two years in that organization before I bailed. Ha ha!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You got it right. 

Sociopaths - our psychologist consultant who meets with us for several hours once a month says sociopaths should be locked up. He is in private practise and refuses to work with them.

BPD - very difficult to work with. I worked with a lot of psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, counselors, etc over the years. They all cringe at the thought of having a client with BPD.

Sexual predators - I worked with some over the years. Most were under the legal system and court order to the program I was working. We got all the files on a person who was court ordered to our program. So there was no unfront BS as to why they were there. I don't recall one who made it through the program. I had one client for one session, who was not court ordered, but was part of our regular program. He told me what he did to two of his step daughters, ages 10 and 12. I told him I would have to report him. He was picked up, arrested and did over 20 years, (he did his entire sentence). He contacted me two years ago when he was in a half way house right after his release. Long story but I met with him once he was out of the half way house and was living in an apartment. He was beaten many times in prison and was crippled. After more then 20 years in prison he still felt that it was the girl's fault, as he told me again, "they started it". It was the same thing he told me over 20 years ago. I said, you were a 50 year old man, they were 10 and 12, you should have had better sense. He said, but they started it. His ex-wife defended him in court (it was one of the worst things I ever was personally involved). Their mother said, her 10 and 12 year old daughters are nothing but prostitutes and whor*s. The state took her children. He is now in a nursing home and is bed ridden. There are a variety of sexual addictions and some are not really treatable and there are others that the person overcomes with treatment.

Many disorders can be treated, others managed. i am working with one bi-polar man who can really be out there. Right now, since last May he has been doing well. But he has lots of support. 

All I know is that my WS is out there and since the 13th of February, everything indicates that she is reaching out to all the wrong people. Most of her family is seeing it, my oldest BIL sees it as a sign that she is really lost, as he said and I said it last year, reach out to your good friends, she decided to hook up with an old GF that she had not seen in over 30 years. That is who she is now hooked up with and others who will just validate her lifestyle.


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## Machiavelli

spudster said:


> I have some experience with the psychology world in that I used to be a case worker for a county mental health agency. Every psychologist I worked with told me that sociopaths, BPDers and people with sexual addictions are extremely difficult to treat and that in the case of sexual predators some types of therapy can actually make them worse. Hence my only working two years in that organization before I bailed. Ha ha!


I got the idea from reading LTC Anthony Herbert's book that psychology might be good field of study in that it would be useful in commanding infantry, so I have a few college hours in the subject. I got out of it pretty fast, because the other students and the professors were clearly nuckin' futs. They were all in the field in order to try to figure out how to fix themselves. It's a weird field.


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## Shaggy

Getting back to the open marriage question, I'm not suggesting it btw, but I'm curious to how your wife views the idea of you doing what she does? Would she not care? Has she ever accused you of cheating?

I'm trying to under stand her morals and opinions here. Obviously she herself has been feeling no guilt or remorse for how many years now? 19 maybe?


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## spudster

Thorburn, if you were doing a psychological assessment of your wife, what diagnosis would you come up with? I'm curious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Getting back to the open marriage question, I'm not suggesting it btw, but I'm curious to how your wife views the idea of you doing what she does? Would she not care? Has she ever accused you of cheating?
> 
> I'm trying to under stand her morals and opinions here. Obviously she herself has been feeling no guilt or remorse for how many years now? 19 maybe?


At this stage I don't know what she would say. I know that when she saw that I looked at porn she would go beserk. There are folks who can are in these "disorders" who have hold people to a higher moral code and point out their faults when they are doing horrible things. They say to themselves, "I would never do that", and yet they do it.

As I am researching sexual addiction she seems to fit the pattern of someone who is out of control. I am trying to find someone in this field who I can talk. I have several folks that I will contact that I found on-line and see whet they recommend. 

I would think my WS would find it appalling if I hooked up or had suggested an open marriage. Addictive behaviors, thinking, etc, is really based upon lies, deceit, and a host of other things. It is about getting that high. And in my WS's case it took over big time.


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## Chaparral

Thorburn said:


> At this stage I don't know what she would say. I know that when she saw that I looked at porn she would go beserk. There are folks who can are in these "disorders" who have hold people to a higher moral code and point out their faults when they are doing horrible things. They say to themselves, "I would never do that", and yet they do it.
> 
> As I am researching sexual addiction she seems to fit the pattern of someone who is out of control. I am trying to find someone in this field who I can talk. I have several folks that I will contact that I found on-line and see whet they recommend.
> 
> I would think my WS would find it appalling if I hooked up or had suggested an open marriage. Addictive behaviors, thinking, etc, is really based upon lies, deceit, and a host of other things. It is about getting that high. And in my WS's case it took over big time.


Look for local sex adiction programs. Iheartlife used them to get the names of counselors they respected in the field.

I hate to say this, but I have serious doubts this only goes back 19 yrs. Unless, this all coincides with the car wreck when she hit her head. Otherwise, I think she has always been this way and was able to hide it.


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## bfree

Thorburn said:


> At this stage I don't know what she would say. I know that when she saw that I looked at porn she would go beserk. There are folks who can are in these "disorders" who have hold people to a higher moral code and point out their faults when they are doing horrible things. They say to themselves, "I would never do that", and yet they do it.
> 
> As I am researching sexual addiction she seems to fit the pattern of someone who is out of control. I am trying to find someone in this field who I can talk. I have several folks that I will contact that I found on-line and see whet they recommend.
> 
> I would think my WS would find it appalling if I hooked up or had suggested an open marriage. Addictive behaviors, thinking, etc, is really based upon lies, deceit, and a host of other things. It is about getting that high. And in my WS's case it took over big time.


I think you're still focusing on your stbxw way too much. You need to concentrate more on you and getting yourself to a better place. Just my opinion.


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## Thorburn

spudster said:


> Thorburn, if you were doing a psychological assessment of your wife, what diagnosis would you come up with? I'm curious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The DSM-IV-TR includes "Sexual Disorder—Not Otherwise Specified", but there is no real clinical diagnosis at this time. The DSM is basically the "bible" for diagnosis. There was a proposed "hypersexual disorder" to be added to DSM-V which will coming out shortly but it was rejected by the APA. 

Right now we are left with the vague "sexual addiction", which many clinicians would use. But it is not in the DSM. Also, most sexual disorders are not covered by the mental health side of health insurance as most exclude psychological treatment for sexual issues.


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## spudster

bfree said:


> I think you're still focusing on your stbxw way too much. You need to concentrate more on you and getting yourself to a better place. Just my opinion.


Good point. It would be nice to know what her pathology is though...so he can have some closure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JMGrey

Thorburn said:


> The DSM-IV-TR includes "Sexual Disorder—Not Otherwise Specified", but there is no real clinical diagnosis at this time. The DSM is basically the "bible" for diagnosis. There was a proposed "hypersexual disorder" to be added to DSM-V which will coming out shortly but it was rejected by the APA.
> 
> Right now we are left with the vague "sexual addiction", which many clinicians would use. But it is not in the DSM. Also, most sexual disorders are not covered by the mental health side of health insurance as most exclude psychological treatment for sexual issues.


I don't really buy the clinical notion of hypersexuality or sexual addiction, as neither seem to me to be expressions of atypical sexual attraction, fetish or dysfunction. And can you really label a biological drive a compulsion with a straight face? That's one of the reasons I find food addictions absurd.


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## bfree

spudster said:


> Good point. It would be nice to know what her pathology is though...so he can have some closure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My experience is that there is never really closure, at least closure that is satisfactory to the BS. If he keeps this up he'll be constantly spinning his wheels and getting nowhere. The best thing for Thorburn to do is to concentrate on Thorburn. Let her family work on her. He'll find out if anything comes of it. She's not his concern anymore.


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## Tony55

When I discovered my wife was in a car "making out" with her old high school sweetheart, I didn't look for a disorder, I didn't look for more details, I didn't try to rationalize it, I just sent her on her way and haven't physically been in her presence since the day she left. 

I already knew ahead of time that I'd never get over what she did, and that the newly acquired insecurity I felt wasn't something I was willing to live with, it would rob me of one of the basic attributes that made me attractive, confidence.

So away she went, that chapter was closed, and to this day she still claims to love me, and that's good, love me from afar, where you can't inflict that pain on me ever again.

*That's truly the only way to handle these things and preserve your self respect, and confidence.*

T


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## spudster

bfree said:


> My experience is that there is never really closure, at least closure that is satisfactory to the BS. If he keeps this up he'll be constantly spinning his wheels and getting nowhere. The best thing for Thorburn to do is to concentrate on Thorburn. Let her family work on her. He'll find out if anything comes of it. She's not his concern anymore.


I agree 90% except that it would benefit him to find out what her diagnosis is if there ever is one in the futurebut I agree he should leave all that to her family. 

I also think Thorburn should stop tracking her and doing surveillance. He cannot spend the rest of his life playing gumshoe and following her around to her trysts. 

She won't stop. If anything the gloves are off now and she is freed up to run around now more than ever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

> Originally Posted by Jasel View Post
> Are you going to be part of the intervention Thor??





Thorburn said:


> Not sure what will happen. Letting my BIL handle it.


Please, don't. Disengage from this. Let her family do it. Not your bussiness anymore.
Even if you believe it would be good given you deeply care about her it would be counterproductive (I never believed in "interventions" effectiveness anyway)


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## turnera

I was thinking the same thing. Estranged husbands don't belong in interventions.


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## Acabado

Sex addiction... I really don't give a damm about labels or diagnoses, we can even discuss the effectiveness of different potential "treatements" but people behave compulsively despite self and others destruction; picture gambling "addiction", hoarding, eating disorders, self harming...


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## Machiavelli

Acabado said:


> Please, don't. Disengage from this. Let her family do it. Not your bussiness anymore.
> Even if you believes it would be good give you deeply care about her it would be counterproductive (I never believed in "interventions" effectiveness anyway)


Don't let the family keep pulling you back in, Thorburn.


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## Thorburn

Acabado said:


> Sex addiction... I really don't give a damm about labels or diagnoses, we can even discuss the effectiveness of different potential "treatements" but people behave compulsively despite self and others destruction; picture gambling "addiction", hoarding, eating disorders, self harming...


The truth of the matter is that diagnoses has more to do with medical reimbursment, disability payments, plus the APA is a very political organization. The DSM serves as a guide, if you have three out of five symptoms, then you are this or that.

If my WS was bi-polar and was acting out sexually (I have seen this in bi-polar clients), I would still be in the same boat. Married to a woman who can't or won't control having sex in her life.

I am not actively seeking or even looking at a diagnosis. I have looked up sexual addictions in women and my WS fits. But it is for me to gain a little more understanding.

I am not investigating her at this point. I took my youngest son's advice and have not looked at her new FB page since the first time I saw it pop up on people I might know on my FB page. She is using her maiden name, and has already friend requested a guy she was flirting with two years ago and two years ago I found an email where he gave her his phone number and was going to be in our town the following weekend and said when to call him so he would not have to explain to his wife, who this woman is.


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## Thorburn

Meeting with the pastor my BIL recommended in 1/2 hour. Last week our wires got crossed but I did attend his service on Sunday. He was a street bralwer growing up on the streets here, so he had a rough past, my kind of guy. Knows the streets but had sense to change and knows how to relate.


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## spudster

Thorburn said:


> *She is using her maiden name, and has already friend requested a guy she was flirting with two years ago and two years ago I found an email where he gave her his phone number and was going to be in our town the following weekend and said when to call him so he would not have to explain to his wife, who this woman is*.


Well there you go. There is your answer to her mindset. 

Not only is she disrepecting you to your face, she is flaunting her disrespect in public. 

What a horrible woman. That's just evil.


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## vi_bride04

*Re: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



turnera said:


> I was thinking the same thing. Estranged husbands don't belong in interventions.


Exactly!


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## Thorburn

spudster said:


> Well there you go. There is your answer to her mindset.
> 
> Not only is she disrepecting you to your face, she is flaunting her disrespect in public.
> 
> What a horrible woman. That's just evil.


That is what my counselor told me last year. I went to her to seek help to discuss porn and she went right by that and focused on my WS. She kept asking me does your WS really want to be married to you, she keeps disrespecting you. I was blind. She was a very good counselor (IMO) and said you are not an addict, she did some testing on me. But just about every session she focused on my WS and I told her several times that is not why I came here. She did focus on my anger and drinking a few times but she always came back to my WS and now I see why. Like my counselor in 2010. They got it right away and they never met my WS. I did not.


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## Thorburn

OK. I met with Pastor John. He is a good man. I shared with him my past and what is going on. Here is the bottom line of what he said. He said I will give you a three point plan.

1. Write my wife a letter. He said I would write what you told me, "that I love you with all my heart, that you were my sunrise and sunset. And because I love you so much I am going to divorce you." The pastor said that I gave her too many chances over the years and she never felt that I would divorce her. I have told folks on TAM if you threaten D then follow through with it. The pastor told me the same thing. She will read the letter and be able to ponder it. The letter is not to win her back or scare her. It will show her your heart and the reality of what you plan to do.

2. He said get your finances and accounts together. So when you work with an attorney they know what you have. He said don't worry about money. He said, your WS is thinking that you will not D her because of your finances are a wreck. He said finances need to be considered but don't let that stop you. She does not think you will follow through. He said that I need to stop giving her chances. He said that I did enough.

3. Thirdly, he said follow through with it. Do not seek revenge, do not let anger and bitterness take over. He said do this in a spirit of love. You do this because you love her and she has broken the marriage into bits.

So over the next several days I will work on the letter. The pastor said you don't have to rush it the important thing is to follow through with it.


My youngest BIL called me and we talked a good while. He gets it. Told me he will always be here for me and that he will always consider me his BIL. He says he now understands the darkness that his sister is in and he said he is very concerned. 

He told me that he loves me.

I have peace tonight.

I have several goals. One is I have to find an attorney that is cheaper then the one I have started with. He gave me great counsel but I need quite a bit of money upfront before he will go any further. 

I have some links that folks sent me here on TAM for attorneys and I will start looking at those.


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## bfree

Best case scenario is that you hand her the letter and divorce papers at the same time.


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## Thorburn

bfree said:


> Best case scenario is that you hand her the letter and divorce papers at the same time.


Don't know the time line yet. I need to get an attorney. 

Not sure when to give the letter. I am thinking sooner then later. Will have to think about it. I thought I could write it now and give it to her. I have mixed feelings.


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## spudster

Thorburn how much long before she moves back to your old house in the other city? How long do you have to live under the same roof with this woman?


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## Thorburn

spudster said:


> Thorburn how much long before she moves back to your old house in the other city? How long do you have to live under the same roof with this woman?


Don't know. There are two tenants that just signed leases at our other home. I think the leases are for 4 to 6 months.

Legally I can't kick her out.


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## spudster

Thorburn said:


> Don't know. There are two tenants that just signed leases at our other home. I think the leases are for 4 to 6 months.
> 
> Legally I can't kick her out.


Start doing a hard 180.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

spudster said:


> I agree 90% except that it would benefit him to find out what her diagnosis is if there ever is one in the futurebut I agree he should leave all that to her family.
> 
> I also think Thorburn should stop tracking her and doing surveillance. He cannot spend the rest of his life playing gumshoe and following her around to her trysts.
> 
> *She won't stop.* If anything the gloves are off now and she is freed up to run around now more than ever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She might stop. After all, what's the point of secretive, sexual trysts if you do not have a faithful spouse to cheat on?


----------



## Thorburn

spudster said:


> Start doing a hard 180.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I already have.:iagree:




MattMatt said:


> She might stop. After all, what's the point of secretive, sexual trysts if you do not have a faithful spouse to cheat on?


This is exactly what my WS's oldest brother told me.

Though if she is a sex addict and her behavior has gotten more brazen, now with relative strangers and younger men, it could get worse.

Knowing D is in her future it could open up a floodgate to medicate her "pain".

I certainly don't know. Out of my area of practice.


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## Shaggy

You might try asking her, would you like to have an open marriage.


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## CantSitStill

Wow you said something that interests me..bipolar and sex addiction...my sister seems to have this sex addiction and she's bipolar..just always worry about her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

It's so sad to see her like this..she's the oldest yet we worry about her like she's the baby..ugg I feel for ya Thornburn I do
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

CantSitStill said:


> Wow you said something that interests me..bipolar and sex addiction...my sister seems to have this sex addiction and she's bipolar..just always worry about her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My WS is not bi-polar. My next oldest brother is. Just about every bi-polar client I worked with over the years has quite a bit of sexual baggage. Especially when they go into their manic phase. One church person I worked with years ago would just go off the deep end sexually and then become suicidal. It was sad.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> You might try asking her, would you like to have an open marriage.


LOL. And what if she says yes? Do I ask her if I can watch? I don't think I will ask.


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## CantSitStill

so there is a connection I think..she gets so manic and happy and then we know what's gonna come next. the lows
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

CantSitStill said:


> so there is a connection I think..she gets so manic and happy and then we know what's gonna come next. the lows
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is the typical behavior. Manic/depressive.

Makes havoc on family. My brother spent about $30,000.00 last year on mail order brides. None showed up at the airport as promised. He would drive hours to the airport to await his bride. He did this over and over again. There was no one who could tell him not to do it.


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## CantSitStill

The thing I noticed with my sister is the "oh I'm in love, for real this time" ugg and she talked about how this is the one for me..bla bla bla and the passion. Ugg she would scare them off and act whacko and then bam she's back in the hospital again...it's really sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

CantSitStill said:


> The thing I noticed with my sister is the "oh I'm in love, for real this time" ugg and she talked about how this is the one for me..bla bla bla and the passion. Ugg she would scare them off and act whacko and then bam she's back in the hospital again...it's really sad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is. My brother is really kind hearted but he is out there. When my father died last year, my mother, brothers and sister were discussing the funeral. My bi-polar brother would interrupt with statements, like, I have to tell you all that I am now a business man and talk about playing penny stocks, etc. At least we are all tolerant of his behavior.


----------



## Thorburn

OK, the games are continuing. Just got an email from my WS's friend from high school in our joint email account. Stating hey WS, I got a message not to contact your ex and to delete his FB page from your friend list. Then your FB page disappeared and I could not send you a message so I am sending you a message on this email. I don't know what is going on but I am praying for you.


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## turnera

Your brother's situation sounds more like Aspberger's.


----------



## turnera

Thorburn said:


> OK, the games are continuing. Just got an email from my WS's friend from high school in our joint email account. Stating hey WS, I got a message not to contact your ex and to delete his FB page from your friend list. Then your FB page disappeared and I could not send you a message so I am sending you a message on this email. I don't know what is going on but I am praying for you.


 lol

I would answer her and give her the real scoop.


----------



## CantSitStill

Thorburn said:


> OK, the games are continuing. Just got an email from my WS's friend from high school in our joint email account. Stating hey WS, I got a message not to contact your ex and to delete his FB page from your friend list. Then your FB page disappeared and I could not send you a message so I am sending you a message on this email. I don't know what is going on but I am praying for you.


ohh wow
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

turnera said:


> lol
> 
> I would answer her and give her the real scoop.


Tempting but I was warned by my first attorney to play nice. Not to post on cheaterville, FB, etc. If she does then it can be used against her. 

Apparently someone told her to shut her new one down. I looked once and my son said don't. He said it will just make you upset.


----------



## Acabado

Maybe your wife is using her friend to fish what you know.


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## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Your brother's situation sounds more like Aspberger's.


Bi-polar is a mental illness caused by an chemical imbalance in the brain. Aspberger's falls under the autism spectrum and falls under developmental disorder.

There are similarities in both. My brother when he takes his lithium is pretty well functioning. Kept a job at Harley Davidson for over 30 years. But he stops taking it because he does not want to be a drug addict. And that is when his odd behavior becomes very apparent.


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## Thorburn

Acabado said:


> Maybe your wife is using her friend to fish what you know.


No my wife deleted it as soon as she saw it. We are both on the same email account and seems that we are both checking it together. She has been using it to sell our stuff. Sold a table tonight. Put the money on the table and labeled it "bills" and now it is gone. 

She may have heard I am going to file. Let her fish. I have nothing to hide. She does have a lot to hide.


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## CantSitStill

So your brother didn't self medicate? My sister just got out of 3 months rehab. I believe she is done with street drugs..gosh I hope
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

I am no were near as educated as you are T-, but your old lady may not have a under development or chemical imbalance in her nochen, but I do think that car accident so many years ago damaged something.

I can see were a limebic damage can cause rage, but if her limebic area was damaged could it cause the kind of behavior your old lady has?? IDK.

It wierd cuz I can see were some chick got played with by her dad and now love thing is all jacked up and actually sabatage a healthy relationship cuz its not what they know.

so some chick with daddy issues goes out and screws around cuz she thinks she has that control over a dude that she didn;t have with her daddy, and when she does meet a cool guy she can't relate with the healthiness of what she has and screws it up.


But your old lady didn't have this? She had her sh1t together before the car wreck...right?


----------



## Thorburn

the guy said:


> I am no were near as educated as you are T-, but your old lady may not have a under development or chemical imbalance in her nochen, but I do think that car accident so many years ago damaged something.
> 
> I can see were a limebic damage can cause rage, but if her limebic area was damaged could it cause the kind of behavior your old lady has?? IDK.
> 
> It wierd cuz I can see were some chick got played with by her dad and now love thing is all jacked up and actually sabatage a healthy relationship cuz its not what they know.
> 
> so some chick with daddy issues goes out and screws around cuz she thinks she has that control over a dude that she didn;t have with her daddy, and when she does meet a cool guy she can't relate with the healthiness of what she has and screws it up.
> 
> 
> But your old lady didn't have this? She had her sh1t together before the car wreck...right?


Could explain it for sure. i did not see any form of cheating prior to 1996. there are some questionable things around 1996 to 1998. Definitely cheating in 1999. Trying to remember the year of the accident. I am thinking 1994 or 95. Yes head trauma can cause these sorts of disorders. I have not rule that out.


----------



## the guy

Head trauma or emotional trauma...the trick is learning the tools to control the bad crap that come along with them. I look at may self and the crap I did in the past along with atheletes and what they did in the past and how many are coping and dealing with there BS.

But then I see others...old friends that stood next to me in many of fights, rolled cars/trucks and other athelets that killed them selves one way or another and I wonder why some can fix their sh1t and others lose it.

Who knows, maybe its a combination of a little trauma to the mellon and some crap your born with?


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## spudster

Barbara Mandrell and Gary Busey both suffered noticeable changes in their personalities after they each suffered head traumas in vehicular accidents. 

Busey is almost completely nuts now. And Mandrell's car accident caused her to suffer a form of bi-polar disorder that pretty much derailed her career.


----------



## spudster

the guy said:


> Who knows, maybe its a combination of a little trauma to the mellon and some crap your born with?


I think you may have hit upon the truth with Thorburn's wife.


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## warlock07

Thorburn said:


> OK, the games are continuing. Just got an email from my WS's friend from high school in our joint email account. Stating hey WS, I got a message not to contact your ex and to delete his FB page from your friend list. Then your FB page disappeared and I could not send you a message so I am sending you a message on this email. I don't know what is going on but I am praying for you.


ex means you? She is trying to get people on her side... probably by lying and badmouthing you...


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## Thorburn

warlock07 said:


> ex means you? She is trying to get people on her side... probably by lying and badmouthing you...


Yes, because her family is starting to reject her.


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## Shaggy

Be careful. Desperate isolated people do desperate things.


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## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> Though if she is a sex addict and her behavior has gotten more brazen, now with relative strangers and younger men, it could get worse.


I think looking at her behavior as a sexual addiction is off the mark. I think she's addicted to the feeling of being desired (we all like being desired), but for her that isn't enough, she needs to physically feel a man desire her, she needs to confirm the desire, it isn't real until he physically takes her and she can experience him losing himself in her, then, and only then, can she believe that she truly is desirable.

But like taking a hit of crack, the feeling is short lived, and then she needs another hit.

I believe when she isn't engaging in some sort of cat and mouse game with other men, she feels so bad that life feels intolerable (hence her statement, I can't live like this). She gets so antsy and depressed and insecure when she isn't getting that immediate 'desire' feedback from men that it begins to take precedent over everything, even her family... she needs her 'fix', as she displayed in her careless rush to create a new FB account or profile, she needs that stimuli as quickly as possible.

Her age isn't helping the problem, in fact, it's compounding it, and as she gets older, her pursuit of desirability confirmation will probably involve even younger men, almost like a counter weight (like upping the dose of a drug).

But addicted to sex? Too easy. She's way too complicated for that, sex is the icing on the cake, but the cake itself is where the real reward lies, man after man pursuing her, desiring her, she needs them to need her, she thrives on it, and she can't live without it, it's her crack.

T


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## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> I think looking at her behavior as a sexual addiction is off the mark. I think she's addicted to the feeling of being desired (we all like being desired), but for her that isn't enough, she needs to physically feel a man desire her, she needs to confirm the desire, it isn't real until he physically takes her and she can experience him losing himself in her, then, and only then, can she believe that she truly is desirable.
> 
> But like taking a hit of crack, the feeling is short lived, and then she needs another hit.
> 
> I believe when she isn't engaging in some sort of cat and mouse game with other men, she feels so bad that life feels intolerable (hence her statement, I can't live like this). She gets so antsy and depressed and insecure when she isn't getting that immediate 'desire' feedback from men that it begins to take precedent over everything, even her family... she needs her 'fix', as she displayed in her careless rush to create a new FB account or profile, she needs that stimuli as quickly as possible.
> 
> Her age isn't helping the problem, in fact, it's compounding it, and as she gets older, her pursuit of desirability confirmation will probably involve even younger men, almost like a counter weight (like upping the dose of a drug).
> 
> But addicted to sex? Too easy. She's way too complicated for that, sex is the icing on the cake, but the cake itself is where the real reward lies, man after man pursuing her, desiring her, she needs them to need her, she thrives on it, and she can't live without it, it's her crack.
> 
> T


But that is the addiction. Short lived, does not fulfill the emptiness or void. She needs it again and again.

Just my thoughts.


----------



## the guy

IDK Tony55, sex is a big part of this crap, and there is some chemical stuff that goes along those lines when its in the mellon....doformines ...or something...but it is a chemical reaction that I think broke OP's old lady and she never got the sh1t addressed.

I have to say guys, my old lady got worse, her self distruction was a clear and present danger. I'm just saying, thing is, phucking around esculates when you all phucked up and broken and you don't check your self.

Maybe I'm off but when I had an unhealthy behavior...the time I hit my wife got easier and I started hitting her more.

It was my call to stop the person I had become...there was something in my mellon I didn't like being there.

In T- case, his old lady likes were she is at...no matter how unhealthy it is.


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## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> But that is the addiction. Short lived, does not fulfill the emptiness or void. She needs it again and again.
> 
> Just my thoughts.


But I wouldn't say it's an addiction to sex. I know that's a popular and easy thing to throw out there, and we, as men, can certainly identify with the potential to be addicted to sex, but I think women are a little more complicated in their thinking when it comes to these things. It's just my gut feeling on this, but I'd say she's addicted to the attention and the only way she knows how to get that attention and affirmation is through sex. I could be wrong. But I bet if she was to see a good psychiatrist, who studied her, he/she wouldn't treat her for a sexual addiction, it would go deeper, some kind of emotional insecurity.

I don't know, maybe if an emotional problem leads to sex on a regular basis with multiple partners then it's a sexual addiction, but then that defies what it means to be addicted to something.

Would you say she's a nymphomaniac? I feel like someone who might be considered that, might actually be addicted to sex. If she was addicted to the act of sex, wouldn't you be having sex with her daily? Maybe even a few times a day?

Like I said, I could be wrong.

T


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## tom67

Thorburn said:


> But that is the addiction. Short lived, does not fulfill the emptiness or void. She needs it again and again.
> 
> Just my thoughts.


Yes you are chasing your last high and it's never better than the first thus the constant chase.


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## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> But I wouldn't say it's an addiction to sex. I know that's a popular and easy thing to throw out there, and we, as men, can certainly identify with the potential to be addicted to sex, but I think women are a little more complicated in their thinking when it comes to these things. It's just my gut feeling on this, but I'd say she's addicted to the attention and the only way she knows how to get that attention and affirmation is through sex. I could be wrong. But I bet if she was to see a good psychiatrist, who studied her, he/she wouldn't treat her for a sexual addiction, it would go deeper, some kind of emotional insecurity.
> 
> I don't know, maybe if an emotional problem leads to sex on a regular basis with multiple partners then it's a sexual addiction, but then that defies what it means to be addicted to something.
> 
> Would you say she's a nymphomaniac? I feel like someone who might be considered that, might actually be addicted to sex. If she was addicted to the act of sex, wouldn't you be having sex with her daily? Maybe even a few times a day?
> 
> Like I said, I could be wrong.
> 
> T


I think you are correct. Most of us tend to focus on the sex. I have complained about the way she dresses over the years. She would say she dresses that way for me. My responce was, I am not around most of the time you are dressed like that. You are dressed like that when you are out shopping by yourself, etc. Last year she finally admitted to it. So even the way she dresses is a way to draw attention.


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## Thorburn

My older BIL told me that I should send my WS the letter soon and he asked if he could review it with me. I sent him what I wrote and he will look at it. 

Her two brothers (I am now talking to the youngest one) want us to work things out. But they both know that their sister is way out there and my oldest BIL said it would have to take something massive from her to make this right.

When I shared with him that Pastor John told me to divorce my WS, my older BIL, did not flinch. He said Pastor John is a very good man with good insight. My older BIL said I am praying that the marriage does not end but I know my sister broke the marriage and he said you have every right to divorce her. He said she is the one responsible for this. 

I tend to think that my older BIL is hoping that the letter will wake my WS up to the reality of what she has done. I know that my WS's family is struggling with this as I have been part of their lives for almost 33 years and they love me and I love them.

My WS and I were directly responsible for getting my younger BIL and his wife together, as well as my middle BIL and his wife. My middle SIL was a classmate of mine in college and grad school and we arrainged to have her meet my middle BIL when he came to visit us, seven kids later they are doing great. My younger SIL was a teacher at the private school we sent our kids. We knew she would be a good match for my younger BIL. Funny, she was very heavy and he is an athelete. But five kids later they have a great marriage.

My WS's oldest sister's husband was also a classmate of mine in grad school, but he was already good friends with my oldest BIL and had already met his future wife at my WS's home in the Poconos. She is a RN and moved to the town where I went to grad school, lived in an apartment and started dating my future BIL. They would hang out in our apartment during the time they were dating. 

So there is a long history with many wonderful times to include match making. There are 12 great kids due to my WS and me seeking mates for my BILs. 

So for me my in-laws were great. My FIL and MIL loved me and I them. They see how their sister lied to them, manipulated them, and has gone into a world that is just alien to them.


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## spudster

Yeah but blood is thicker than water. I get the uneasy feeling that the older BIL is playing like he's your ally but behind the mask he's trying to get you to R with his sister. 

Don't know why I feel that way. I'm a reform Presbyterian for a reason...too many religious types in one room rarely come up with good solutions to problems. 

You need to make it clear to all your in-laws, that short of you WW having a personal "Road to Damascus" interview with Jesus, and completely turning herself around and debasing herself on the floor in front ofyou begging you not to leave her, that R is not even remotely an option.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

Today I have a heavy case load. Three individual sessions, one group session here at our center and then two group sessions at the hospital. The two groups at the hospital are both inpatient with men and women who have all the heavy psychological stuff. What we call acute psych. Suicidal, homocidal, delusional, folks detoxing, etc. I try to make a connection for future therapy once they are discharged. Since I started doing this a few months ago it has gone great. It feels great every time I leave the wards that they have not committed me and forced me to stay against my will.

My goal is to meet a doctor there at the hospital, fall in love and live happily ever after.


----------



## Thorburn

spudster said:


> Yeah but blood is thicker than water. I get the uneasy feeling that the older BIL is playing like he's your ally but behind the mask he's trying to get you to R with his sister.
> 
> Don't know why I feel that way. I'm a reform Presbyterian for a reason...too many religious types in one room rarely come up with good solutions to problems.
> 
> You need to make it clear to all your in-laws, that short of you WW having a personal "Road to Damascus" interview with Jesus, and completely turning herself around and debasing herself on the floor in front ofyou begging you not to leave her, that R is not even remotely an option.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was a Presbyterian once. PCUSA, but my beliefs were in line with your denomination. Went through the ordination process. Long story. I resigned. To this day they have not accepted my resignation and want me back and that was over 20 years ago. 

My BIL wants R. But believe me he wants to see that Damascus Road experience. His referral to massive is a short version of what he has been telling me. He mentions hell etc when he talks about his sister. He said it would be all that you say plus a whole lot me. No, I think he gets it.

But blood is thicker and I get that as well.


----------



## bfree

Thorburn said:


> I was a Presbyterian once. PCUSA, but my beliefs were in line with your denomination. Went through the ordination process. Long story. I resigned. To this day they have not accepted my resignation and want me back and that was over 20 years ago.
> 
> My BIL wants R. But believe me he wants to see that Damascus Road experience. His referral to massive is a short version of what he has been telling me. He mentions hell etc when he talks about his sister. He said it would be all that you say plus a whole lot me. No, I think he gets it.
> 
> But blood is thicker and I get that as well.


I think my response to any of your in laws when asked about R would be that you tried R and she not only broke the marriage but broke the R. After the divorce if she sufficiently works on herself who knows what the future holds. But D is a definite.

That way you aren't completely closing the door on what may happen in the future but are saying that this chapter in your life is closed.


----------



## Thorburn

bfree said:


> I think my response to any of your in laws when asked about R would be that you tried R and she not only broke the marriage but broke the R. After the divorce if she sufficiently works on herself who knows what the future holds. But D is a definite.
> 
> That way you aren't completely closing the door on what may happen in the future but are saying that this chapter in your life is closed.


And that is why an outsider like you and Pastor John give me the advice you give. pastor John said, Mac, you gave your WS more then enough opportunities and in my mind you made it too easy for her. He said that several times. You made it easy for her. Now you need to move on with D.


----------



## SevenEight

Thorburn,

I wish I had something to write that would be profound or helpful, as I truly am saddened having had to come on to this forum to seek help for my situation, and then reading all the terrible stories that others share here. In a way it helps to know that I am not alone in dealing with hardship, as I'm guessing it might help you at times as well.

With that said, I'd just like to say that your signature is great, and I copied it and saved it. Little things that make me laugh or content for moments really help, so I had to say thank you for that.


----------



## spudster

Thorburn said:


> I was a Presbyterian once. PCUSA, but my beliefs were in line with your denomination. Went through the ordination process. Long story. I resigned. To this day they have not accepted my resignation and want me back and that was over 20 years ago.
> 
> My BIL wants R. But believe me he wants to see that Damascus Road experience. His referral to massive is a short version of what he has been telling me. He mentions hell etc when he talks about his sister. He said it would be all that you say plus a whole lot me. No, I think he gets it.
> 
> But blood is thicker and I get that as well.


I don't know how Hosea did it. That's who I think of when I think of you Thorburn. Except the difference is that in your case God is not requiring you to take her back the way Hosea was required to put up with his harlot wife's repeated cheating. 

For you to even consider taking your wife back she would have to do such a complete 180 turnaround from the behavior she is displaying as to literally become reborn, and only God can do that. 

I don't know if you believe in Satan and demonic possession, but I wonder if she is under demonic influence. You can PM me if you don't feel comfortable talking about such things publically.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## spudster

Thorburn said:


> And that is why an outsider like you and Pastor John give me the advice you give. pastor John said, Mac, you gave your WS more then enough opportunities and in my mind you made it too easy for her. He said that several times. You made it easy for her. Now you need to move on with D.


Take his advice. When a pastor tells you you should D, you KNOW its bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

spudster said:


> I don't know how Hosea did it. That's who I think of when I think of you Thorburn. Except the difference is that in your case God is not requiring you to take her back the way Hosea was required to put up with his harlot wife's repeated cheating.
> 
> For you to even consider taking your wife back she would have to do such a complete 180 turnaround from the behavior she is displaying as to literally become reborn, and only God can do that.
> 
> I don't know if you believe in Satan and demonic possession, but I wonder if she is under demonic influence. You can PM me if you don't feel comfortable talking about such things publically.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Humans have a dark enough side all on their own. I don't think a person that chooses to act like this needs any demonic help. Its simply selfishness and lack of empathy run wild.


----------



## Thorburn

spudster said:


> I don't know how Hosea did it. That's who I think of when I think of you Thorburn. Except the difference is that in your case God is not requiring you to take her back the way Hosea was required to put up with his harlot wife's repeated cheating.
> 
> For you to even consider taking your wife back she would have to do such a complete 180 turnaround from the behavior she is displaying as to literally become reborn, and only God can do that.
> 
> I don't know if you believe in Satan and demonic possession, but I wonder if she is under demonic influence. You can PM me if you don't feel comfortable talking about such things publically.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do believe in evil, Satan and demonic possession. Never had experienced anything like that. My youngest son and her one sister has mentioned possession. My son said this is not his mother. I have never encountered it nor do I wish to. 

My wife was mocking me last week when I told her I still loved her when we were going over the bills. She snapped back with an angry and mocking tone, "Who told you to say that, my brother or the pastor in town?" I said, "No" and let it go. 

It is ironic the complete turn around in her on February 13th. About an hour after having sex with the OM for I think the third time, she is home. I come home. She hugs me, gives me a kiss, is smiling and said I am making supper for you. About an hour later I have my proof by listening to the recording. I said who was in the car with you. She got all concerned. What is the matter, Mac? Are you OK? No one was in the car with me. Come on Mac, you are scaring me. Then I pulled out the recording. That is not me having sex, that is music. Then it went to, "I am tired of you accusing me, I am leaving. I can't take you accusing me anymore, I did not do anything".

Then anger and hate.


----------



## Anabel

Thorburn said:


> It feels great every time I leave the wards that they have not committed me and forced me to stay against my will.
> 
> My goal is to meet a doctor there at the hospital, fall in love and live happily ever after.



:smthumbup:
lol

I agree with everyone else, Let her go. It might help to just pretend she is dead. Because even if she were to want to patch it up, the mistrust and memories and everything else would haunt you. Don't waste any more of your time, it is impossible to fix. Leave it to her family.


----------



## CantSitStill

Thorburn said:


> I do believe in evil, Satan and demonic possession. Never had experienced anything like that. My youngest son and her one sister has mentioned possession. My son said this is not his mother. I have never encountered it nor do I wish to.
> 
> My wife was mocking me last week when I told her I still loved her when we were going over the bills. She snapped back with an angry and mocking tone, "Who told you to say that, my brother or the pastor in town?" I said, "No" and let it go.
> 
> It is ironic the complete turn around in her on February 13th. About an hour after having sex with the OM for I think the third time, she is home. I come home. She hugs me, gives me a kiss, is smiling and said I am making supper for you. About an hour later I have my proof by listening to the recording. I said who was in the car with you. She got all concerned. What is the matter, Mac? Are you OK? No one was in the car with me. Come on Mac, you are scaring me. Then I pulled out the recording. That is not me having sex, that is music. Then it went to, "I am tired of you accusing me, I am leaving. I can't take you accusing me anymore, I did not do anything".
> 
> Then anger and hate.


That is really really freaky, scary, bizzare behavior wow..so sorry you are going thru this but you must take care of youself no matter how hard this is...Praying for you Thorn
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## spudster

I'm not saying she's Linda Blair and spitting pea soup and is getting ready to throw Thorburn out a window. What I am saying is that when you play with the dark side the way she has; when you open yourself up to the lowest and most base immorality, you do compromise your soul. 

I really believe that her own willful immoral actions have had a profound and transformative spiritual effect on her. Can she pull herself out of it? Maybe with a lot of tough love and harsh consequences from her family she may be able to salvage 50% of who she once was. Maybe. 

But I'm not sure even Thorburn knows who she once was, or even if she ever really was the person he thought he knew. Its possible she has been like this all her life and became adept at fooling everyone intop thinking she was little Miss Innocent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

I gave my WS the letter. Knocked on her door and handed it to her. My BIL wanted to see it first and he said it is right to the point. My middle BIL is back from South Africa and he and my oldest BIL should be talking right now. The middle BIL does not know the whole story.


----------



## Jasel

Have you tried detaching from her and just letting her family deal with her? It really sounds like you've tried everything you possibly can and like your pastor says you've put up with far more than could have been expected and have given her far more chances than she deserves. I really wouldn't be surprised if she's been doing this your whole marriage. 

I'm just wondering if any involvement/interaction you're having with her is hurting more than helping. And I mean that for the both of you. Plus it might be best for _you _if you put 100% focus on just you and your sons and stop trying to influence her. Especially since it sounds like her family knows what is going on, are willing to deal with her and at least try to help her. And there seems to be a boatload of them. 

If she's been doing this to you for almost 2 decades at least and you've known she's capable of this since 1999 how much can you really expect to be able to change/influence her??


----------



## Thorburn

Jasel said:


> Have you tried detaching from her and just letting her family deal with her? It really sounds like you've tried everything you possibly can and like your pastor says you've put up with far more than could have been expected and have given her far more chances than she deserves. I really wouldn't be surprised if she's been doing this your whole marriage.
> 
> I'm just wondering if any involvement/interaction you're having with her is hurting more than helping. And I mean that for the both of you. Plus it might be best for _you _if you put 100% focus on just you and your sons and stop trying to influence her. Especially since it sounds like her family knows what is going on, are willing to deal with her and at least try to help her. And there seems to be a boatload of them.
> 
> If she's been doing this to you for almost 2 decades at least and you've known she's capable of this since 1999 how much can you really expect to be able to change/influence her??


I feel like I have detached. The pastor wanted me to write the letter and give it to her. I did that tonight. I have not spoken to her in days other then when someone came to buy a table and she asked if I could help.

I am at peace tonight.


----------



## happyman64

I am praying for you Thorburn.


----------



## 3putt

happyman64 said:


> I am praying for you Thorburn.


Same here.

Thinking about you.


----------



## Machiavelli

spudster said:


> I don't know how Hosea did it. That's who I think of when I think of you Thorburn. Except the difference is that *in your case God is not requiring you to take her back* the way Hosea was required to put up with his harlot wife's repeated cheating.


Exactly. Not to mention the fact that Hosea was living in a polygynist society and didn't have to put all his huevos in one basket. It makes me grind my teeth when bone headed churchians try to trot that one out to guilt BHs into R.


----------



## Affaircare

NOTE TO SELF: God did not require Hosea to take his whoring wife back "because He requires us to take our whoring spouses back." Hosea was a prophet and as a prophet he was showing the Israelites that they had "*****d" themselves out to other gods... but by Hosea being faithful despite his wives sins, he was acting out how God is faithful to us despite our sins. It was supposed to be a lesson and they were supposed to see how much it hurt him to have an adulterous wife and then realize they had been unfaithful to God. 

Now... back to our regularly scheduled programming. 

Thorburn, I just have one thing to say. It may be your wife is nucking futs. It may be she's split personality. It may be she's just a truly wicked woman. And I do realize that in a way, as a loyal spouse, you want to analyze and analyze and analyze so you can figure out "where you went wrong" or if there were flags you missed so you don't do that next time. In a way, it's a way of protecting yourself which is cool. 

BUT for the past several pages we've been talking about your soon-to-be-ex, trying to diagnose her disorder (if any), talking about her intervention, talking about HER HER HER. Frankly, we may never know what the issue is or why she did what she did. Without being in her head, it's impossible to know AND even if we did, we can not change her! 

May I make a request? Let's talk about you. Have you done a Myers-Briggs test lately? If not, do one and let's talk about it. If so, what are you? I'd guess even split I/E NTJ with strong P overtones.  Come one let's shift your focus to someone you can help, encourage, and change: YOU!!


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## Thorburn

Affaircare said:


> NOTE TO SELF: God did not require Hosea to take his whoring wife back "because He requires us to take our whoring spouses back." Hosea was a prophet and as a prophet he was showing the Israelites that they had "*****d" themselves out to other gods... but by Hosea being faithful despite his wives sins, he was acting out how God is faithful to us despite our sins. It was supposed to be a lesson and they were supposed to see how much it hurt him to have an adulterous wife and then realize they had been unfaithful to God.
> 
> Now... back to our regularly scheduled programming.
> 
> Thorburn, I just have one thing to say. It may be your wife is nucking futs. It may be she's split personality. It may be she's just a truly wicked woman. And I do realize that in a way, as a loyal spouse, you want to analyze and analyze and analyze so you can figure out "where you went wrong" or if there were flags you missed so you don't do that next time. In a way, it's a way of protecting yourself which is cool.
> 
> BUT for the past several pages we've been talking about your soon-to-be-ex, trying to diagnose her disorder (if any), talking about her intervention, talking about HER HER HER. Frankly, we may never know what the issue is or why she did what she did. Without being in her head, it's impossible to know AND even if we did, we can not change her!
> 
> May I make a request? Let's talk about you. Have you done a Myers-Briggs test lately? If not, do one and let's talk about it. If so, what are you? I'd guess even split I/E NTJ with strong P overtones.  Come one let's shift your focus to someone you can help, encourage, and change: YOU!!


Thanks. I took a Myer-Briggs back in the 90's and I forget what I was. I will see if I can do this today.

Thanks again


----------



## bfree

Affaircare said:


> NOTE TO SELF: God did not require Hosea to take his whoring wife back "because He requires us to take our whoring spouses back." Hosea was a prophet and as a prophet he was showing the Israelites that they had "*****d" themselves out to other gods... but by Hosea being faithful despite his wives sins, he was acting out how God is faithful to us despite our sins. It was supposed to be a lesson and they were supposed to see how much it hurt him to have an adulterous wife and then realize they had been unfaithful to God.
> 
> Now... back to our regularly scheduled programming.
> 
> Thorburn, I just have one thing to say. It may be your wife is nucking futs. It may be she's split personality. It may be she's just a truly wicked woman. And I do realize that in a way, as a loyal spouse, you want to analyze and analyze and analyze so you can figure out "where you went wrong" or if there were flags you missed so you don't do that next time. In a way, it's a way of protecting yourself which is cool.
> 
> BUT for the past several pages we've been talking about your soon-to-be-ex, trying to diagnose her disorder (if any), talking about her intervention, talking about HER HER HER. Frankly, we may never know what the issue is or why she did what she did. *Without being in her head*, it's impossible to know AND even if we did, we can not change her!
> 
> May I make a request? Let's talk about you. Have you done a Myers-Briggs test lately? If not, do one and let's talk about it. If so, what are you? I'd guess even split I/E NTJ with strong P overtones.  Come one let's shift your focus to someone you can help, encourage, and change: YOU!!


:iagree:

But the thought of being in her head is triggering me! Its got to be a huge mess in there.


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## Thorburn

My middle BIL got home from South Africa yesterday. My oldest BIL called him and filled him in on what is going on with my WS. I actually had some anxiety about my middle BIL because in 1999 he blamed me for my WS's A and in 2010 he told my WS to D me (I did not know about the D statement and he thought I did). He said, Mac, I was wrong and apologized to me. He said, my sister said she did not want a D and he said file and it will scare Mac back to his senses. He said it was shortly after telling her to D me, he said it did not make sense how she responded. He said all she was doing was complaning about me, but refused to file for D. He said this did not make sense. This was after I caught her having a very sexual EA and I did not share this with anyone (big mistake). She was telling the family that I was abusing her but they did not know what she did. Yea, right. My rage did not come out till 2012. Anyway, he said it was after her refusal to file for D that he came to the conclusion that she was a liar and manipulating the family. He warned his family members not to listen to her. Her younger brother and middle sister did not listen to him. He said, Mac, this goes back a long way maybe to High School or earlier. He said I imagine there will be stuff throughout your marriage that we have no clue about unless she would reveal it. He said, my sister is really in darkness. He said we (his family) is praying for me and they have put their sister in God's hands. 

He said he knew there was something wrong with her and it was not me.

So, we talked for a while and he said he is here to support me and that I can call him anytime. He said he and his older brother will get everyone on board and come up with a plan on how to deal with their sister. He said in the meantime do what you have to do. I said, I am filing for D. He said do it.

I wish I could go to my nieces wedding this weekend. Almost all my WS's family is going to be there. It is my oldest BIL's daughter. He invited me. I can't afford it. 

It would be great to see my picture with my neice, at her wedding on all my WS's family member's FB account. Uncle Mac and the bride. Uncle Mac and all my WS"s family in a group picture. It would be sweet.


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## spudster

Good to see the family is at least offering to band together to help your STBXW. Now let's see if they walk their talk. As for you, now that you have gotten everyone on board its time for you to bow out of the family gracefully. 

I know its painful because these folks are probably closer to you than your own family. Which begs to question, have you told any of your own siblings about what's going down?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Middle brother, middle sister...Damn! How many siblings ARE there over there?


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## CantSitStill

The sad thing is you losing her family that took you in as one of their own..They are ashamed to have her in their family and sounds like they love you..wow what a place to be in..with all I've read here I am shocked..I mean how in the world did she live such a double like for pretty much your whole marriage..as I've told you before still praying for you..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jasel

CantSitStill said:


> The sad thing is you losing her family that took you in as one of their own..They are ashamed to have her in their family and sounds like they love you..wow what a place to be in..with all I've read here I am shocked..I mean how in the world did she live such a double like for pretty much your whole marriage..as I've told you before still praying for you..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Honestly, and I don't mean this in a negative way, it sounds like there was a lot of denial going on with pretty much everyone involved.


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## spudster

Jasel said:


> Honestly, and I don't mean this in a negative way, it sounds like there was a lot of denial going on with pretty much everyone involved.


Agreed. 

I think all of the siblings knew she was up to something but none of them would ever confront her. No one wanted to rock the boat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

it has to be tearing your heart apart Thor and I am proud of you for staying strong through this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

First, Thorburn, when my exH and I divorced I also was very close to his mother (his dad had already passed away) and his siblings. As the divorce was "being settled" I kept my focus on doing the right thing and being fair, no matter how he acted (because his bad actions are not justification for me to act badly). So in other words, I didn't do anything to hurt them or them to hurt me. After it was final, the next "family holiday" they invited me over for the family brunch...and we all agreed that we were no longer related by marriage but we could choose to be related. So that's how we kept it. We still stay in touch via Facebook and holiday cards and we still invite each other to life events like wedding and graduations. Hey fact is I loved those folks!!

Second, here's a link to a Myers-Briggs personality test. Again may I try to steer this thread away from "her her her" and back to the man we're all here to help become a better human?


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## Thorburn

I feel at least validated by the folks who have surrounded me. Old friends, her family, my family and TAM. They get it. The lies that I was not aware of being floated around by her since 2010 have come to light. I am not that abusive person that she had convinced her family I was. After her A in 2011 I was but like my son said, Dad, I never saw you like that ever and he said I understand why. Mom, lied and you knew it, kept confronting her about it, she would lie more and tell everyone that I am abusive. Last year I gave her ammo. No more. I am back to being me.

So I digress.

I know what I have to do yet I lack motivation to do those things. 
1. Got to get a handle on the bills. I just procrastinate.
2. Still have to get the truck fixed. Got a lead on a mechanic and have to call him.
3. Attorney. Got most of the advice I need for now. But he was going to cost me an arm and a leg. I found another one and have to make contact with him.
4. I have to get my professional liscense. Might be eligibile for a program where everything is paid to include tutoring and in addition might receive a stipend to boot. So I have to make an appointment.


I have detached. And will continue to work on it. Part of me just wants to confront her, but I am not going there.

Grief - I have done a lot of grief work over the years and know I am in it. But I don't have anger or guilt. I am not thinking why me. I am somewhat numb maybe indifferent is a better way of putting it. I feel that it is all on what she did. I am not sure if I have reached acceptance because I do go through painful times. I am sleeping fairly well. Not eating the best but I am eating. I have anxious moments of uncertainty but by evening they are gone. I have peace for my decision to file. I am not questioning that at all. Even if she repents I am going to file at this point.


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## Thorburn

Just got off the phone with my youngest son. He said his firend (I call him one of my boys) that I have known since he was 13 and spends a lot of time at our house even now, told him, I never wanted to tell you but your mom tried to seduce me when your dad was in Iraq. Telling me how lonely she was. I wanted to leave and she would not let me leave and kept saying how lonely she was. He said your dad sent your mom a message from Iraq on her computer and she said, oh my husband is online and he said she started to mess with the computer and he said I left and she said don't leave and he said I just kept going. He said, I went outside to wait for you to get home. He said it was really weird.


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## Acabado

Good Lord. A friend of her youngest son? 
She's completely lost.
It's obvious you hardly know the tip of the iceberg.

I'm so sorry.
And I'm so sorry your son had to hear this from his friend. Must feel ashamed. Almost hope he decides not to confront her on this.


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## Affaircare

Thorburn~

I see your list of 4 things that you are sort of "putting off/avoiding"

1. Bills
2. Truck Repair
3. Attorney
4. Professional License

...and all day today I've been suggesting that you switch your focus from your soon-to-be-ex wife. I see you are still extremely focused on her and by focusing on her and what she did and with whom, you are avoiding what you need to do. 

So Thorburn, I am extremely respectfully boxing you in the ear. If you don't want to do the M-B personality test (I linked it up above) please work on your bills tonight. Let's break it up into smaller steps:

1. Open them all
2. Staple the envelope to the bill
3. Put them in order of Due Date.
4. Start a list that includes the company name, the full amount due, the amount due now or this month, and the due date and the phone number. Make it like a spreadsheet so you can add up the full amount due and the amount due now/per month.

Soooo...I want to see some progress sir! Stop thinking about her. Discipline your mind to *STOP *when a thought about her or her past or her actions or her lies comes into your mind. Literally..think *STOP*. And tonight I want to see either all your bills opened or the personality test done. 

The correct response is Yes Ma'am.


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## turnera

Oh, man, I'm so sorry, Thorburn. I think you're just numb at this point, but boy is it going to explode at some point.

Ask a friend to be your taskmaster, ok? Someone who will keep you on track to get your stuff done.


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## spudster

Remember the Trouble With Tribbles where Captain Kirk opened the grain bin and all those tribbles avalanched down on top of him. 

I see you T as Kirk and your wife's lies and affairs as the tribbles. Now that the avalanche has started...hold on to your socks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt

Thorburn, I sincerely hope you divulge all this info to her family before the "intervention". I don't know what happened to her, but she needs serious help. This woman is broken beyond belief.

This isn't about just exposing her anymore. This runs a whole lot deeper. I don't know what happened, but somewhere down the line something broke in her. Or perhaps, she never was right to begin with, but was just a master at hiding it. I don't know what to think about this. I do know that covering it up will lead to nothing more than the same behavior for years to come.

I really don't know what else to say to you. This is beyond my ability to comprehend. 30 years of this?

You are truly in my prayers.

Unbelievably sad.


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## Acabado

Don't expose this piece about your sons's friend. It's also your son's secret. Unless he's fine with it.


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## 3putt

Acabado said:


> Don't expose this piece about your sons's friend. It's also your son's secret. Unless he's fine with it.


I was assuming the friend told the son because he's aware of all the other issues going on, and felt the need to add to the severity of the situation. 

If this is not the case, then I agree with not divulging until his son approves.


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## Acabado

What I wanted to say is if he expose this it can put another brick in the wall between Mom and son. Son made the confidence, he should decide. Maybe he told to help OP to solidify his resolution but doesn't want a fight with his mother.


----------



## 3putt

Acabado said:


> What I wanted to say is if he expose this it can put another brick in the wall between Mom and son. Son made the confidence, he should decide. Maybe he told to help OP to solidify his resolution but doesn't want a fight with his mother.


Well, like I said, I probably made an assumption I shouldn't have. I admit that.

If the son and friend are okay with it, then fine.

I really can't think of any other reason, other than what I posted, to tell this story now rather than earlier.

For me, it doesn't compute. It seems to me he wants to add validity to Thorburn's claims by coming clean on her advances towards him. That's the only thing that makes sense to me.

I've been wrong before though.


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## vi_bride04

Listen to Affaircare!


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## CantSitStill

My husband is still best friends with his sister's ex husband and he does not talk to her..he knows she is toxic and they have been divorced for 18 yrs. Soo sometimes blood is not thicker.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

Affaircare said:


> Thorburn~
> 
> I see your list of 4 things that you are sort of "putting off/avoiding"
> 
> 1. Bills
> 2. Truck Repair
> 3. Attorney
> 4. Professional License
> 
> ...and all day today I've been suggesting that you switch your focus from your soon-to-be-ex wife. I see you are still extremely focused on her and by focusing on her and what she did and with whom, you are avoiding what you need to do.
> 
> So Thorburn, I am extremely respectfully boxing you in the ear. If you don't want to do the M-B personality test (I linked it up above) please work on your bills tonight. Let's break it up into smaller steps:
> 
> 1. Open them all
> 2. Staple the envelope to the bill
> 3. Put them in order of Due Date.
> 4. Start a list that includes the company name, the full amount due, the amount due now or this month, and the due date and the phone number. Make it like a spreadsheet so you can add up the full amount due and the amount due now/per month.
> 
> Soooo...I want to see some progress sir! Stop thinking about her. Discipline your mind to *STOP *when a thought about her or her past or her actions or her lies comes into your mind. Literally..think *STOP*. And tonight I want to see either all your bills opened or the personality test done.
> 
> The correct response is Yes Ma'am.


Yes, Ma'am


----------



## Thorburn

Acabado said:


> Don't expose this piece about your sons's friend. It's also your son's secret. Unless he's fine with it.


He told me to tell the family. His friend and his gf was at our house with my son last weekend when I was there. He is a good kid. I believe that he was uncomfortable and that is why he left.


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> He said his firend (I call him one of my boys) that I have known since he was 13 and spends a lot of time at our house even now, told him, I never wanted to tell you but your mom tried to seduce me when your dad was in Iraq.


What she's doing is beyond cheating and affairs, she's off in the head, somethings wrong with her, and I'm not saying that to be mean, I'm saying it compassionately, she's mentally ill. It's sad. If it was a man doing the exact same thing to a friend of his daughters since she was 13, he'd be labeled a sicko, or pig, or dog, or perv. 

Women are different inside. I always like to think women are a little bit more sensible, or rational, than we men are when it comes to matters of morality. When a woman does something like this, it stuns me, and the typical labels for such behavior just doesn't come to mind, it's so far out there that mental illness seems like the only logical conclusion, and if that's the case, then it's sad, it has to be hell to live in her mind.

Man, Thorburn, I feel bad for you both. I don't know what to say, I can't imagine staying with such a woman, and at the same time, I understand your need to help her, I don't know. it's just too much.

T


----------



## Tony55

Affaircare said:


> Let's break it up into smaller steps:
> 
> 1. Open them all
> 2. Staple the envelope to the bill
> 3. Put them in order of Due Date.
> 4. Start a list that includes the company name, the full amount due, the amount due now or this month, and the due date and the phone number. Make it like a spreadsheet so you can add up the full amount due and the amount due now/per month.


Listen to her, she's a chick, they know about these things.

T


----------



## Thorburn

I had a weird experience when I came home. I felt something urge me to look in the trash. I have not done this before. I looked. In a tied up bag with my son's trash was a phone number for Lari in my wife's hand writing and then a paper with two email addresses, one hotmail and one gmail. The gmail was similar to the one she used in 2011 with her excite account. She just added two numbers and used gmail instead of excite.com. The paper had her password, her user name which is similar to hers, a different birth date, a zip code, and then answers to questions.

Yes I tried to log on but her email account said there were too many attempts with an incorrect PW and it is blocked. I only tried once.

I know. Stop. But I am telling you something drew me to the trash.


----------



## Shaggy

So call the number and ask for lari.

You need to think back now to men and boys that may have been around your house and neighborhood and business. Think about any that stuck around too much, or disappeared or acted odd.


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## Count of Monte Cristo

Lari? Sounds like a girl's name. I don't know too many guys whose names end in the feminine 'i'.

(Then again, he could be foreign.)


----------



## Shaggy

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Lari? Sounds like a girl's name. I don't know too many guys whose names end in the feminine 'i'.
> 
> (Then again, he could be foreign.)


Or *******.


----------



## Thorburn

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Lari? Sounds like a girl's name. I don't know too many guys whose names end in the feminine 'i'.
> 
> (Then again, he could be foreign.)


It is a guy's name. there is a reporter in the city here with that first name.


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## Affaircare

And yet again you are avoiding the bills and the personality test. 

Thorburn, I'm not pointing this out to be naggy, although I'm sure it sounds that way, but rather to point out the lengths your mind will go to in order to avoid something you don't want to face. I point this out for two reasons: #1--So you're aware you're doing it  (lol) and #2--So you have a little compassion for your STBX-wife. In her mind she also did not (does not) want to face something, and she would rather lose her family, her siblings, and her children than face it. Plus see how your mind so easily has you come up with ANYTHING other than what you know you need to do? You don't even have to try and it just does it!! Same for her. 

SOOOOOOO....If you're on here reading right now, I would encourage you to log off, go open your bills (just slice them open and pull them out flat), and then come back and tell us you got that much done. 

Thorburn, you are a mature, adult MAN. What is the worst that could happen? You'll open all your bills and every one is a shut off notice and you'll live in the dark! Heck you've done that before AND in combat conditions, so you know you can survive that. Also here's the real reason I keep harping on you: I believe in you. You are a bit stronger than you know, I think, and like Bilbo Baggins I think you have hidden skills and strengths that maybe even YOU don't know you have. I personally believe one of them is that you do have the ability to discipline yourself. So I put you on the level of expecting a bit better from you, because I think you have it in ya to do it. 

No more excuses. No more listening to intuition. Go open your bills or tell us about your personality type. DISCIPLINE your mind.


----------



## Thorburn

Affaircare said:


> And yet again you are avoiding the bills and the personality test.
> 
> Thorburn, I'm not pointing this out to be naggy, although I'm sure it sounds that way, but rather to point out the lengths your mind will go to in order to avoid something you don't want to face. I point this out for two reasons: #1--So you're aware you're doing it  (lol) and #2--So you have a little compassion for your STBX-wife. In her mind she also did not (does not) want to face something, and she would rather lose her family, her siblings, and her children than face it. Plus see how your mind so easily has you come up with ANYTHING other than what you know you need to do? You don't even have to try and it just does it!! Same for her.
> 
> SOOOOOOO....If you're on here reading right now, I would encourage you to log off, go open your bills (just slice them open and pull them out flat), and then come back and tell us you got that much done.
> 
> Thorburn, you are a mature, adult MAN. What is the worst that could happen? You'll open all your bills and every one is a shut off notice and you'll live in the dark! Heck you've done that before AND in combat conditions, so you know you can survive that. Also here's the real reason I keep harping on you: I believe in you. You are a bit stronger than you know, I think, and like Bilbo Baggins I think you have hidden skills and strengths that maybe even YOU don't know you have. I personally believe one of them is that you do have the ability to discipline yourself. So I put you on the level of expecting a bit better from you, because I think you have it in ya to do it.
> 
> No more excuses. No more listening to intuition. Go open your bills or tell us about your personality type. DISCIPLINE your mind.


I got all the bills together and will take them to work with me.


----------



## Curse of Millhaven

I’m new here (still reading and learning so much, trying to muster the courage to write about my own dreadful situation), but yours is well and truly one of the most heartbreaking things I’ve read in a long time. I had a visceral reaction to some of it (stopped reading several times due to disgust, sadness, and anger) and I’m a stranger reading about it on a computer screen. I can’t begin to fathom how difficult this has been for you to endure on a day to day basis; the wellspring from which you draw your strength and mettle must be bottomless. Yet even as you’ve been dealing with some truly deplorable things you have throughout maintained your dignity and integrity, which is astounding and beyond admirable, but probably the most impressive (and saddest) thing of all is that you seem to have somehow honored the love you had for your wife. I can’t comprehend how she could have done this to you for all of these years; the depths of despair and depravity are mind boggling. I have to agree with what Tony55 said above…I think she’s sick and I can completely understand your desire at times not to give up fighting for her and your marriage, even though it seems the battle is already lost. This is just awful and I feel so bad for you both and for your family. 

For what it’s worth, even if it’s very little, I think you are noble and a wonderful example of a human being.

You mentioned several pages back that you were listening to bluegrass…this may not be to your liking but I think the message of hope and better times to come is apropos and what I would like to wish for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=cufWYp4D28Y&NR=1

“And so I’ll sing that yellow bird’s song…for troubled times will soon be gone.”


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## Thorburn

Curse of Millhaven said:


> I’m new here (still reading and learning so much, trying to muster the courage to write about my own dreadful situation), but yours is well and truly one of the most heartbreaking things I’ve read in a long time. I had a visceral reaction to some of it (stopped reading several times due to disgust, sadness, and anger) and I’m a stranger reading about it on a computer screen. I can’t begin to fathom how difficult this has been for you to endure on a day to day basis; the wellspring from which you draw your strength and mettle must be bottomless. Yet even as you’ve been dealing with some truly deplorable things you have throughout maintained your dignity and integrity, which is astounding and beyond admirable, but probably the most impressive (and saddest) thing of all is that you seem to have somehow honored the love you had for your wife. I can’t comprehend how she could have done this to you for all of these years; the depths of despair and depravity are mind boggling. I have to agree with what Tony55 said above…I think she’s sick and I can completely understand your desire at times not to give up fighting for her and your marriage, even though it seems the battle is already lost. This is just awful and I feel so bad for you both and for your family.
> 
> For what it’s worth, even if it’s very little, I think you are noble and a wonderful example of a human being.
> 
> You mentioned several pages back that you were listening to bluegrass…this may not be to your liking but I think the message of hope and better times to come is apropos and what I would like to wish for you:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=cufWYp4D28Y&NR=1
> 
> “And so I’ll sing that yellow bird’s song…for troubled times will soon be gone.”


Beautiful song. I bought my son a banjo and mandolin a few years back. His first instrument is guitar and he is pretty good. Not bad on the banjo either. He was playing last weekend when I was visiting him and I forgot about the banjo and he started playing it. He just bought a new Martin guitar and I was playing it (OK I know like two cords) and was singing "Horse with No Name". He sat there and listened. His new Martin is a sweet guitar. Then he showed me a old Fender amp from the 60's he bought. It has tubes. Man, it brought back memories when I played in a band in the 70's. He was excited about it. He said, "Dad, you know this was one of the best amps back in the day". I laughed.

It is ironic that some of his favorite bands I grew up with. Grateful Dead, the doors, etc. He is so like me. Likes most stuff. I never got him into jazz or big band but he does like Bela Fleck and the Flecktones. I turned him on to Bela.


----------



## Thorburn

Thanks Affaircare. I paid a bunch of bills. one credit card, Electric, gas, water, phone, oil.

Now I have to figure the mortgage, cable, other credit cards and I think I am done. Won't have enough, but that will be OK. Have to keep some till next pay to buy food, etc.

At least all the stuff to keep a roof over out heads is done.


----------



## spudster

Too bad you have to share the house with Cruella deVille for the next four months.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Thorburn,

I know you don't want to do it, but her family needs to catch her in the act and expose the OM if their intervention has any hope.

If they don't blow up the cheating directly, she will just cut them out and retreat into that world which accepts her as a long term serial cheater. 

You've now seen the truth of who you've been married to all this time. I don't think you need to be involved, but her family does need to take that step.


----------



## Machiavelli

Tony55 said:


> Women are different inside. I always like to think women are a little bit more sensible, or rational, than we men are when it comes to matters of morality.


Yeah, truly one of the great myths of the last 170 years, courtesy of the Women's Christian Temperance Union. I don't think this myth is going to be around much longer.


----------



## spudster

Shaggy said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> I know you don't want to do it, but her family needs to catch her in the act and expose the OM if their intervention has any hope.
> 
> If they don't blow up the cheating directly, she will just cut them out and retreat into that world which accepts her as a long term serial cheater.
> 
> You've now seen the truth of who you've been married to all this time. I don't think you need to be involved, but her family does need to take that step.


The question is which OM? Guess it doesn't matter...there are prbably a bunch to choose from.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> Then he showed me a old Fender amp from the 60's he bought. It has tubes. Man, it brought back memories when I played in a band in the 70's. He was excited about it. He said, "Dad, you know this was one of the best amps back in the day". I laughed.


If it's a black face Fender Vibrolux, I want it back.


----------



## spudster

'59 Fender Bassman would be nice too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

Machiavelli said:


> If it's a black face Fender Vibrolux, I want it back.


That may be the one. It has vibrato on it. Holy cow. I just look on ebay and some are going for $3,000.00 and it looks just like his.


----------



## Affaircare

Thorburn said:


> Thanks Affaircare. I paid a bunch of bills. one credit card, Electric, gas, water, phone, oil.
> 
> Now I have to figure the mortgage, cable, other credit cards and I think I am done. Won't have enough, but that will be OK. Have to keep some till next pay to buy food, etc.
> 
> At least all the stuff to keep a roof over out heads is done.


AWESOME!! Thorburn I'm very happy that you did this for yourself. In a weird way doesn't it feel good to know the basics are handled? And I can't speak for everyone, but Dear Hubby and I usually do not entirely have "enough" every month either as the medical costs were an unexpected expense. Still, we have just five bills and no credit card bill, so it's a start and it's a step in the right direction. 

Good for you! Now..what was number 2 on your list again?


----------



## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> That may be the one. It has vibrato on it. Holy cow. I just look on ebay and some are going for $3,000.00 and it looks just like his.


That's the one. I cry over my lost baby everyday.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> I know you don't want to do it, but her family needs to catch her in the act and expose the OM if their intervention has any hope.
> 
> If they don't blow up the cheating directly, she will just cut them out and retreat into that world which accepts her as a long term serial cheater.
> 
> You've now seen the truth of who you've been married to all this time. I don't think you need to be involved, but her family does need to take that step.


No they get it. Talking to my middle BIL he the missionary back from South Africa. I did not have to explain much to him. He use to be a builder and finish carpenter and did work at my youngest BIL's house and middle SIL's house. He said my WS was there and complained about me and ignored him. He warned his family that she is lying and don't listen to her. He said things she is saying about Mac doesn't add up.

He said there are things he wants to call her but won't. He said the fact that she ignored him and his older brother (both spiritual minded and firm in their beliefs) says it all. He said she does not want to be around Christian people and he said even now she is hooking up with old friends from her HS days that she has not been in contact with in over 32 years. He says that speaks volumes.


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## spudster

How's your Saturday going Thorburn? Everything okay?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jonesey

*Sv: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Lari? Sounds like a girl's name. I don't know too many guys whose names end in the feminine 'i'.
> 
> (Then again, he could be foreign.)


Lari=Larry perhaps


----------



## Thorburn

spudster said:


> How's your Saturday going Thorburn? Everything okay?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Talked to my son and two of my WS's brothers. Just to stay connected and for my mind. Listening to a sermon by James MacDonald on "God is in control", and listening to music. 

Just trying to chill today.

will sit down later and figure out the rest of the bills. I already took care of the pressing ones and now I just have to prioritize the rest.

My WS keeps taking the money on things we are selling. Today we sold a couch for $125.00 and she said she needs it for groceries, yet I know she got paid from work and has other money. I do not want to argue. Honestly. If she would help out financially we would be fine with money. I know she is getting money together, I suspect one day she will just up and leave (I hope) and she even asked her family who will not help her. 

I have moments of anxiety but they are not severe. 

Priority today is sit down and go through the rest of bills and plan out the month's budget.


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## spudster

Yeah. She's hoarding cash, saving up to go. 

Let her. It would be good riddance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

So now it's your turn. Next time you sell something, hide the money.


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## Thorburn

turnera said:


> So now it's your turn. Next time you sell something, hide the money.


She came home and handed me the money.


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## spudster

Okay. Take it and spend on the truck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

Paid the mortgage on our new house. Went through the rest of the bills. It is bad. To think that money started to come in from my WS's job and the refinishing business and we were going to see the light of day. And then a few days later I find out she is still cheating.

Hopefully we can keep selling stuff. If so I can make it. 

I am trying to work with a financial credit company but they have not replied back as of today. Highly recommended and they say it will not affect my credit. The other option is bankruptcy and I am looking at that option as well. I have some friends who will help but I told them to hold on to their money until I really need it.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Exactly, if you can avoid loans or help, it will come in handy when you or she leaves.

Then that help can go directly to you and only you.


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## bandit.45

Its good that you are getting things sorted out Thorburn. Knowing what you're up against is better than just guessing. Have you looked into short selling the new house?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Its good that you are getting things sorted out Thorburn. Knowing what you're up against is better than just guessing. Have you looked into short selling the new house?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Looking at all options. Right now I would like to keep the house and eventually get three tenants in here. With rents the way they are around here it would work out pretty well for me. The house is just a mile outside the city and 3 miles from downtown so it is a prime area.


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## Thorburn

Talked to an attorney and scheduled a time with him this coming Friday. 

Waiting to hear from the debt management couseling service.

Moving forward. Slowly and in a partial daze but moving forward.

I am truly greatful for TAM.


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## Shaggy

Be careful with the debt service. Many of them talk a great game but they end up taking money and delivering nothing.

Research them on the Internet before signing on.

Also, forgiven debt is taxable so be careful of a big bill to Uncle Sam if you go there.


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## spudster

Any sign your WW is out running around? Or does she come home and stay hidden away in her room when she not at work?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

Shaggy said:


> Be careful with the debt service. Many of them talk a great game but they end up taking money and delivering nothing.
> 
> Research them on the Internet before signing on.
> 
> Also, forgiven debt is taxable so be careful of a big bill to Uncle Sam if you go there.


Yes, make sure you check with the BBB, check review websites, the FTC and your state's commerce department I think. I'll try to find the name of the state office, but make sure the reports are mainly positive.
Here is the FTC link, read though it and make sure the company is legit.

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0058-credit-repair-how-help-yourself

Edit found it:
Consumer affairs office.


----------



## Thorburn

spudster said:


> Any sign your WW is out running around? Or does she come home and stay hidden away in her room when she not at work?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think she is still running around. She leaves for hours telling my son she is going out shopping for groceries and comes back with nothing.

When she is home she spends most of the time in her room. So I am not sure.


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## happyman64

You should not care at this point. Sad to say but true.

Take it one day at a time Thorburn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Be careful with the debt service. Many of them talk a great game but they end up taking money and delivering nothing.
> 
> Research them on the Internet before signing on.
> 
> Also, forgiven debt is taxable so be careful of a big bill to Uncle Sam if you go there.


The company is called Clarifi. i am working with USAA, as they have all my insurances, mortgage, and credit card. Their financial team gave me the name of this company and I have checked them out online and they seem good and have very good credentials. I don't think USAA would steer me wrong as I owe them quite a bit of money and I have been with them since the 1980's.


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## Thorburn

My WS sent me a text about an hour ago. "Need to know if u have filed yet & if not when u plan on doing so".

Got advice on how to respond. i was just going to ignore it. My pastor said, put it back on her. So I basically wrote that I still love you and if your desire is to mend the marriage I will work with you. If your desire is to divorce me then I will continue to seek godly counsel.

My pastor told me to throw it back on her. 

I am going to file. But will talk to the attorney on Friday. At this point I don't really want to discuss things with my WS until I get a handle on the legal aspects of it. So I will remain vague. I did give her the letter last week that out of love I will be filing for D. So she knows my intent. And as to when I really won't let her know until it is done, unless my attorney advices me otherwise.


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## turnera

"You fired me. I don't owe you an explanation."


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## spudster

Thorburn said:


> My WS sent me a text about an hour ago. "Need to know if u have filed yet & if not when u plan on doing so".
> 
> Got advice on how to respond. i was just going to ignore it. My pastor said, put it back on her. So I basically wrote that I still love you and if your desire is to mend the marriage I will work with you. If your desire is to divorce me then I will continue to seek godly counsel.
> 
> My pastor told me to throw it back on her.
> 
> I am going to file. But will talk to the attorney on Friday. At this point I don't really want to discuss things with my WS until I get a handle on the legal aspects of it. So I will remain vague. I did give her the letter last week that out of love I will be filing for D. So she knows my intent. And as to when I really won't let her know until it is done, unless my attorney advices me otherwise.


Thorburn you are an ordained minister right? I would imagine that to be an Army chaplain you would have to be. Knowing all that you do about spiritual matters, I would suggest you step back a bit and look at what your minister is asking you to do. Ministers by and large are tasked with the spiritual leadership and growth of their flock. In your case, you have a minister who I believe has good intentions about wanting to bring both you and your wife back into spiritual, and as a by-product, marital harmony with each other. 

Here's the problem: your wife doesn't want this.

I think it was a huge misjudgement for your minister to tell you to throw it back on your wife. Why? Has she shown any good judgement up to this date? Has she shown any true repentence or desire to be a REAL wife to you? No. Why then would he or you trust her to be able to handle something like that being "thrown back on her"?

Thorburn, you know most ministers are good at theology and preaching, yet are clueless as to how marriages work. I think this minister sees himself as doing his job asking you to even mention R to her, when in reality there really is no chance of that unless she first STOPS the sin, and then repents that sin. 

You tell us she is still disappearing for hours and lying to her son about where she is going and what she is doing. That right there speaks volumes as to her intentions.


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## Thorburn

spudster said:


> Thorburn you are an ordained minister right? I would imagine that to be an Army chaplain you would have to be. Knowing all that you do about spiritual matters, I would suggest you step back a bit and look at what your minister is asking you to do. Ministers by and large are tasked with the spiritual leadership and growth of their flock. In your case, you have a minister who I believe has good intentions about wanting to bring both you and your wife back into spiritual, and as a by-product, marital harmony with each other.
> 
> Here's the problem: your wife doesn't want this.
> 
> I think it was a huge misjudgement for your minister to tell you to throw it back on your wife. Why? Has she shown any good judgement up to this date? Has she shown any true repentence or desire to be a REAL wife to you? No. Why then would he or you trust her to be able to handle something like that being "thrown back on her"?
> 
> Thorburn, you know most ministers are good at theology and preaching, yet are clueless as to how marriages work. I think this minister sees himself as doing his job asking you to even mention R to her, when in reality there really is no chance of that unless she first STOPS the sin, and then repents that sin.
> 
> You tell us she is still disappearing for hours and lying to her son about where she is going and what she is doing. That right there speaks volumes as to her intentions.


My minister wants me to divorce her. In fact he said I have been too easy on her over the years and should have divorced her prior to this. Unless I mispoked, my pastor is not encouraging me to work things out. He wanted me to throw it back on her to get her intentions, get her to say it is over. Not for me but for her to realize what she is doing. 

You are right, she has not shown any good judgement what so ever.


----------



## spudster

Thorburn said:


> My minister wants me to divorce her. In fact he said I have been too easy on her over the years and should have divorced her prior to this. Unless I mispoked, my pastor is not encouraging me to work things out. He wanted me to throw it back on her to get her intentions, get her to say it is over. Not for me but for her to realize what she is doing.
> 
> You are right, she has not shown any good judgement what so ever.


Okay I misread. Sounds to me like you need to take the lead as you have done in all things with this marriage. 

It really has been a one-sided marriage for a long long time hasn't it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

Newest message from her:

"I have turned back to god, he is the only one who understand me and knows what I have been trhu. I will never ever be controlled or manipulated or abused by anyone ever again and if u r praying for the boys ask god to stop u from controlling our youngest son. i really hope tht u r not playing the god card here as I have seen u do this before many times. I have the jeep in the shop, my axles are falling off and I still have to get our other son. The jeep is going in the shop tomorrow and it will be $507.00."

I wrote back stating how much we have and what we have will not even cover half that bill.

I talked to her family and they said she is really in darkness and for me to continue to follow through with my plans for D.

I knew it would get worse. ANd I can only imagine that it will get ever more so. She bought a boat load of groceries without telling me and I have to figure out what that did to our account.


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## spudster

Wow. Wonder which god she's turned back to? Zeuss, Aphrodite, Baal? 

Masterful job of redirecting all of her wrongdoings back on you.

Man this is one angry evil woman. I especially hate the part where she uses her own learning-disabled son as a pawn. Disgusting. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Wow..your stbxw needs her head examined..she is VERY seriously mentally just messed up oh my gosh!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> Newest message from her:
> 
> "I will never ever be controlled or manipulated or abused by anyone ever again ......."


Who is she talking about? Her whole speech is angry.


----------



## cantdecide

Thorburn said:


> Newest message from her:
> 
> "I have turned back to god, he is the only one who understand me and knows what I have been trhu. I will never ever be controlled or manipulated or abused by anyone ever again and if u r praying for the boys ask god to stop u from controlling our youngest son. i really hope tht u r not playing the god card here as I have seen u do this before many times. I have the jeep in the shop, my axles are falling off and I still have to get our other son. The jeep is going in the shop tomorrow and it will be $507.00."
> 
> I wrote back stating how much we have and what we have will not even cover half that bill.
> 
> I talked to her family and they said she is really in darkness and for me to continue to follow through with my plans for D.
> 
> I knew it would get worse. ANd I can only imagine that it will get ever more so. She bought a boat load of groceries without telling me and I have to figure out what that did to our account.


I got the whole "I've turned back to god" and "I will never be controlled again" speech too. It's all part of the script. She's still blaming you.


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## Thorburn

spudster said:


> Wow. Wonder which god she's turned back to? Zeuss, Aphrodite, Baal?
> 
> Masterful job of redirecting all of her wrongdoings back on you.
> 
> Man this is one angry evil woman. I especially hate the part where she uses her own learning-disabled son as a pawn. Disgusting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Which god? Not the one I have learned about in church or Sunday school. Heck, I have been a Lutheran, a Presbyterian, a Baptist, and joined other denominations over the years, depending on where I lived and honestly, though the service formalities may differ the teachings have all been consistant.

Her god is a self-centered god called self. 

When she was in counseling last year she wrote herself a letter. I don't know if she knows it or not but I read it. She has kept that letter hidden. In part it says she lost herself due to pain in her life, lost of her parents, special needs son, a selfish husband, and that god turned his back on her. She said she lost herself. The A in 2011 was something she did for herself, it was special, she said I know it was wrong but it took away the pain. And she wrote that she turned to pornagraphy as an escape. 

So one messed up person. Angry at me.

I don't have a pity party for me. All I know is that I did not cause this in her and it goes beyond anything I have ever dealt with in counseling and I really need to keep focused on moving forward.

Am I hurting? Sure I am. I loved her and still do. She was my life. Am I at fault? No! Hel* no!!!. She did this out of complete selfishness and is blaming me and saying I was selfish.


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## Thorburn

I suspect she wants to know when I am going to file so she can get her payday and move on with her life, knowing that I will be supporting her. Geez, happy days.


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## spudster

Thorburn said:


> I suspect she wants to know when I am going to file so she can get her payday and move on with her life, knowing that I will be supporting her. Geez, happy days.


Does Pennsylvania have alimony laws T?


----------



## Almostrecovered

spudster said:


> Does Pennsylvania have alimony laws T?



Alimony in PA: The Definitive Answers on the 5 Most Asked Questions


----------



## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> Newest message from her:
> 
> "I have turned back to god, he is the only one who understand me and knows what I have been trhu. I will never ever be controlled or manipulated or abused by anyone ever again and if u r praying for the boys ask god to stop u from controlling our youngest son. i really hope tht u r not playing the god card here as I have seen u do this before many times. I have the jeep in the shop, my axles are falling off and I still have to get our other son. The jeep is going in the shop tomorrow and it will be $507.00."
> 
> I wrote back stating how much we have and what we have will not even cover half that bill.
> 
> I talked to her family and they said she is really in darkness and for me to continue to follow through with my plans for D.
> 
> I knew it would get worse. ANd I can only imagine that it will get ever more so. She bought a boat load of groceries without telling me and I have to figure out what that did to our account.


Interesting. Ask her how God is feeling about her banging back door man on the blanket you brought back from Iraq? Does He understand this because it has me beat.


----------



## Thorburn

spudster said:


> Does Pennsylvania have alimony laws T?


Yes. But it depends how I file. I can go no-fault then my WS's misdeeds can't come into play. I can also file fault and then adultery can play a part whether the judge will give her alimoney or not. I don't know for sure. I was told last year that we could recuse judges until we get one that is man friendly in terms of a cheating wife. But that was the attorney I was working with last year and I did not pay him anything. I asked him to bill me and he never did.

So, I am not sure. The attorney I talked to initially said he would file both non-fault and fault to cover the bases. Not sure what my new attorney will say.

All I know is she could end up with more than half my income, my combat disability, etc, because we have been married so long and I have been the main bread winner.

It will be up to the courts and more than likely one judge, unless we can settle outside the courtroom.

This is outside my expertise.


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## Numbersixxx

Thorburn said:


> Got advice on how to respond. i was just going to ignore it. My pastor said, put it back on her. So I basically wrote that I still love you and if your desire is to mend the marriage I will work with you. If your desire is to divorce me then I will continue to seek godly counsel.


You are still telling her you love her... after all the disgusting stuff she has done to you. I don't think she deserves this kindness. No to mention that is looks like it is counterproductive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karole

Thorn: You need to get a really good attorney - not a cheap attorney. Interview several until you have one that you feel comfortable with and that you feel will represent your interests to the best of his ability. Go to the State Bar website for your State and there you can put in the City you live and get a listing of all the attorneys in your area. Look for one that specializes in family law and has been in practice for several years. Meet with him and do not let him pass you off to an associate. You need an experienced attorney, not someone who just recently passed the Bar exam.

You come across as such a compassionate man. My heart breaks for what you are going through. I know you will have to pay your wife something, but my hope is it will be minimal. Protect yourself and to do that, you need exceptional legal representation. Best of luck to you!!

P.S., Keep up with everything your wife is selling. If she is not splitting that income with you, it needs to be deducted from her part of the settlement.


----------



## Affaircare

Thorburn said:


> Yes. But it depends how I file. I can go no-fault then my WS's misdeeds can't come into play. I can also file fault and then adultery can play a part whether the judge will give her alimoney or not. I don't know for sure. I was told last year that we could recuse judges until we get one that is man friendly in terms of a cheating wife. But that was the attorney I was working with last year and I did not pay him anything. I asked him to bill me and he never did.
> 
> So, I am not sure. The attorney I talked to initially said he would file both non-fault and fault to cover the bases. Not sure what my new attorney will say.
> 
> All I know is she could end up with more than half my income, my combat disability, etc, because we have been married so long and I have been the main bread winner.
> 
> It will be up to the courts and more than likely one judge, unless we can settle outside the courtroom.
> 
> This is outside my expertise.


Thorburn, it may be outside your expertise NOW but trust me when I say you need to MAKE IT your business. By the end of this, you need to be sort of an expert in order to effectively advocate for yourself!! So go to the Pennsylvania Code on Actions of Divorce, Chapter 1920 (that's a link to it right there, so click on it) and start reading!!! 

Let me explain something to you about the legal profession. I'm not going to disrespect lawyers, but in a way they are very much like doctors. They have some specialized training and knowledge BUT they do not live your life and do not know you and your circumstances like YOU DO. Just like a doctor, a lawyer is YOUR EMPLOYEE and they work for you. You tell them what to do!! And their goal is not to "honestly tell you the wisest course of action, from a legal standpoint"!!! OH HECK NO. * A lawyer's goal is billable hours*. Never forget that. Every time they make a recommendation to you, they have weighed the options and about 99.99% of the time chose the one that will lead to the most billable hours. 

Soooo...if your goal is to do the wisest thing from a legal standpoint, then YOU have homework to do. YOU need to read the laws straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak) and know what is best and wise FOR YOU, and then direct your lawyer to do what is best FOR YOU (not for the lawyer's bill). You're an adult now, Thorburn, and in the end you are responsible to track and stay on top of your legal situation. Your lawyer will pull out your file the day you are due to come in for an appointment, and maybe his/her legal assistant will remember some of the details of your situation; YOU on the other hand, live your legal situation every day and know every, single detail and nuance. DO NOT leave your legal decisions "to a lawyer." You're smart---READ THE LAW FOR YOURSELF and then be an active participant with your lawyer as your representative, directed by you what to say and do. 

Now, I am not a lawyer (and I don't play one on TV ) but I will take a look at the laws in PA myself and give you a few notes that I see that you'll need to learn inside and out. Okay?


----------



## spudster

Thorburn,

On a lighter note....

Have you done something nice for yourself today? Have you gone for a walk at lunch, done some exercise, taken a cat nap, eaten at a favorite restaurant? 

Dont forget to take care of yourself and feed your needs once in a while.


----------



## Affaircare

Numbersixxx said:


> You are still telling her you love her... after all the disgusting stuff she has done to you. I don't think she deserves this kindness. No to mention that is looks like it is counterproductive.


Regarding the pastor's advice to "put it back on her" I think maybe the concept is being missed here, so let me see if I can say it in a different way. 

The advice is not to give her the power or for Thorburn to tell her he loves her and be all weak, but rather to let HER but the one to carry the burden of what she has chosen to do.

She HAD a loving husband who was willing to support her and even forgive her. HAD. 

Now she's asking if he filed yet or not (probably to find out if she's eligible for alimony "pending litigation"). Well guess what? SHE made the choice to destroy the vows she made, SHE made the choice to destroy her own family, SHE made the choice to harm her own children, SHE made the choice to make her financial future unstable....and it's not Thor's job to tell her what chess move he's making. Put that load FULLY ON HER. 

So his response is not "Oh even after all this I love you and would take you back in a second with no consequences" (aka "Nice Guy" from a place of weakness), but rather "_I'm acting in actual Real Love, and I love you enough to allow you to experience the mess you've made so you can learn a life lesson. Now, I'm not going to get tangled up in YOUR mess! But I'm not bailing you out either. You'll have to deal with this one for real on your own. I did not choose to destroy our marriage and our family so I'm not talking about legal stuff with you."_

See it now??


----------



## Thorburn

Numbersixxx said:


> You are still telling her you love her... after all the disgusting stuff she has done to you. I don't think she deserves this kindness. No to mention that is looks like it is counterproductive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I had rage, bitterness and drunkeness last year. I don't have anger or bitterness. I just don't. 

In the Christian Scriptures (which I try to follow) in the book of Romans it says, "Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

The scriptures I follow in the book of Matthew says, "Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves."

That is why I am seeing an attorney.

I believe my stand is firm. And out of love for my WS I will divorce her and not have malice or hate in my heart towards her. I feel sorry for her. I can't erase over 30 years of love I had for her and still do. Believe me, I understand what she has done (at least the parts I know) to me. And I will not allow bitterness, anger or any other negative thought control me.

I now say, I learn as I teach. I teach the Veterans who come to see me how to manage their emotions, anger, anxieties, depression, etc. Now I must put into practise those things I have taught.

There are many things I want to say to her. I won't. 

If I wanted to, I could make her life so miserable.

Let her spew hatetred.. I refuse to go there. And when I make it through this I will come out a better person.


----------



## Thorburn

Affaircare said:


> Regarding the pastor's advice to "put it back on her" I think maybe the concept is being missed here, so let me see if I can say it in a different way.
> 
> The advice is not to give her the power or for Thorburn to tell her he loves her and be all weak, but rather to let HER but the one to carry the burden of what she has chosen to do.
> 
> She HAD a loving husband who was willing to support her and even forgive her. HAD.
> 
> Now she's asking if he filed yet or not (probably to find out if she's eligible for alimony "pending litigation"). Well guess what? SHE made the choice to destroy the vows she made, SHE made the choice to destroy her own family, SHE made the choice to harm her own children, SHE made the choice to make her financial future unstable....and it's not Thor's job to tell her what chess move he's making. Put that load FULLY ON HER.
> 
> So his response is not "Oh even after all this I love you and would take you back in a second with no consequences" (aka "Nice Guy" from a place of weakness), but rather "_I'm acting in actual Real Love, and I love you enough to allow you to experience the mess you've made so you can learn a life lesson. Now, I'm not going to get tangled up in YOUR mess! But I'm not bailing you out either. You'll have to deal with this one for real on your own. I did not choose to destroy our marriage and our family so I'm not talking about legal stuff with you."_
> 
> See it now??


Ditto:iagree:


----------



## Thorburn

Affaircare said:


> Thorburn, it may be outside your expertise NOW but trust me when I say you need to MAKE IT your business. By the end of this, you need to be sort of an expert in order to effectively advocate for yourself!! So go to the Pennsylvania Code on Actions of Divorce, Chapter 1920 (that's a link to it right there, so click on it) and start reading!!!
> 
> Let me explain something to you about the legal profession. I'm not going to disrespect lawyers, but in a way they are very much like doctors. They have some specialized training and knowledge BUT they do not live your life and do not know you and your circumstances like YOU DO. Just like a doctor, a lawyer is YOUR EMPLOYEE and they work for you. You tell them what to do!! And their goal is not to "honestly tell you the wisest course of action, from a legal standpoint"!!! OH HECK NO. * A lawyer's goal is billable hours*. Never forget that. Every time they make a recommendation to you, they have weighed the options and about 99.99% of the time chose the one that will lead to the most billable hours.
> 
> Soooo...if your goal is to do the wisest thing from a legal standpoint, then YOU have homework to do. YOU need to read the laws straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak) and know what is best and wise FOR YOU, and then direct your lawyer to do what is best FOR YOU (not for the lawyer's bill). You're an adult now, Thorburn, and in the end you are responsible to track and stay on top of your legal situation. Your lawyer will pull out your file the day you are due to come in for an appointment, and maybe his/her legal assistant will remember some of the details of your situation; YOU on the other hand, live your legal situation every day and know every, single detail and nuance. DO NOT leave your legal decisions "to a lawyer." You're smart---READ THE LAW FOR YOURSELF and then be an active participant with your lawyer as your representative, directed by you what to say and do.
> 
> Now, I am not a lawyer (and I don't play one on TV ) but I will take a look at the laws in PA myself and give you a few notes that I see that you'll need to learn inside and out. Okay?


Ditto again, :iagree: shrewed as a serpent - gentle as a dove.


----------



## CantSitStill

I'm sorry for going off topic for a moment but am curiouis Thor, do you know much about the Amish Mafia? You said something earlier about being involved in an amish community and I've been watching that new reality show. Sorry, you don't have to respond if you don't want. Just curious because it's a really interesting show.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

CantSitStill said:


> I'm sorry for going off topic for a moment but am curiouis Thor, do you know much about the Amish Mafia? You said something earlier about being involved in an amish community and I've been watching that new reality show. Sorry, you don't have to respond if you don't want. Just curious because it's a really interesting show.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have not seen it. I have no doubt that there is a possibility of such a group but I seriously doubt that this is based upon truth. there was a bunch of Amish kids involved with the Pagans in Lancaster County PA some years back, selling drugs. The Amish stick to themselves for the most part. I have worked with some over the years, my youngest son was trained as a carpenter by the Amish, and I hired one years ago, who was shunned. Even his wife shunned him. It was funny. She would come to our place of work and sit beside me. They were not allowed to "be at table" together. So We had to have the tables set apart about 1/2 inch. John (the Amish man who worked for me) would sit at one table and his wife Sarah would sit at the other table, almost across from each other. They would ask me questions, like, John would ask me, How is Sarah doing? and she would tell me. She would ask me questions and he would tell me. They lived in the same house but she was not allowed to do anything for him. It was all because he left the "old order" (horse and buggy) and became Beachy (modern) without the bishop's permission. Others who left the "old order" to join the Beachy had the bishop's permission. John was "rebellious" by joining the group without permission and was shunned


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## spudster

Amish drive-by:

Clippety-clop...clippety-clop...clippety clop...

BANG! BANG!

...Clippety-clop...clippety-clop....clippety-clop....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt

spudster said:


> Amish drive-by:
> 
> Clippety-clop...clippety-clop...clippety clop...
> 
> BANG! BANG!
> 
> ...Clippety-clop...clippety-clop....clippety-clop....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL...I was just thinking of the same joke.


----------



## spudster

3putt said:


> LOL...I was just thinking of the same joke.


An oldie but still funny.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Yes I know the difference between old order and beachy and menanitte and I guess a few others but the old order is the strictest..I've alway had a curiosity about them, have even read books..but they were the novel series by a lady that used to be Amish..can't remember her name at the moment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

How will she get out to cheat with out her cheater mobile?

I keep trying to figure out how they could have sex in such a cramped space. OM must have been tiny,


----------



## SaltInWound

Shaggy said:


> OM must have been tiny,


:lol:


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> How will she get out to cheat with out her cheater mobile?
> 
> I keep trying to figure out how they could have sex in such a cramped space. OM must have been tiny,


It is a jeep grand cherokee. Plenty of room with the seats down. She had a "bed" back there since August 2011. She said it was for the dog when my youngest son questioned her about it and he said, Dad she still has it and never got rid of the bed. He said I knew she was still doing stuff.


----------



## strugglinghusband

Thorburn said:


> Let her spew hatetred.. I refuse to go there. And when I make it through this I will come out *a better person*.



Thorburn, you already are....


----------



## arbitrator

Thorburn said:


> It is a Jeep Grand Cherokee. Plenty of room with the seats down.  She had a "bed" back there since August 2011. She said it was for *the dog *when my youngest son questioned her about it and he said, Dad she still has it and never got rid of the bed. He said I knew she was still doing stuff.


Actually, I greatly think that "the bed" ended up for the benefit of *two dogs!* Bow-Wow!

I'm taking it that they were just making use of that bed in simply trying to shag in order to get all of those nasty ol' fleas off of them!


----------



## Thorburn

My oldest BIL asked me to ask my WS if she would be willing to meet with Pastor John since she has found god again. She responded "with u? No!, Alone, Yes".

My WS apparently does not want to speak to her two older brothers and they want her to get help. So I did this for them. 

I am waiting for pastor John to get back to me.

I talked with the mortgage company on our new home. i could not pay last month's mortage but I did make a payment for March. They will work with me. They are going to refund the fact that the checked bounced last month. 

Researching D as affaircare advised. Learning alot. D is not easy and there are so many ifs. 

Affaircare - I can't afford the Myers Briggs test. If i could I would take it so you can see my personality type.

My anxiety level goes fairly high from time to time but is manageable. I don't have anger or bitterness.

My size 36 jeans fall down. My new belt is at its' last hole. I had a goal before all this to get down to a size 32, slowly this year. Now I am fast tracking. 

Blood work - low potassium and low vit. D. Being on a Vit. d supplement for two years and it is still low. Doctor sent me potassium (heck I been eating bananas). I am grateful that I do not have to pay for my meds, supplements or medical as my VA disability rating is fairly high with no co-pays, so my medical care is free through the VA and I get good service. Still paying for blue cross blue shield and I have to see if I can stop it on me. It is just for me and my WS. The attorney i spoke with gave me good free advice and said, do not cut off the insurance on my WS. It will cost me money and it will bite me if I do.


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## Shoshan1290

Thorburn -- I am exhausted just reading this thread. I can't even begin to imagine how you must feel!

In a way I feel very sorry for your wife. She is obviously very mentally ill and insecure. It's a shame that she allowed those things to drive her into years of deceit instead of turning to you, her husband, for counsel and guidance. I think somewhere along the line she forgot (or actively put out of mind) that marriage is a partnership, one in which you support and help to heal each other.

After reading this thread I can honestly say that I believe if she had gone to you and told you exactly how she was feeling and the desires she was thinking of acting upon (the affairs, namely) you would have been able to help her work through the driving reasons behind them and you two would not be in this position now..

It's quite sad but I applaud you for being so level-headed and gracious about this. Good job.


----------



## Thorburn

Shoshan1290 said:


> Thorburn -- I am exhausted just reading this thread. I can't even begin to imagine how you must feel!
> 
> In a way I feel very sorry for your wife. She is obviously very mentally ill and insecure. It's a shame that she allowed those things to drive her into years of deceit instead of turning to you, her husband, for counsel and guidance. I think somewhere along the line she forgot (or actively put out of mind) that marriage is a partnership, one in which you support and help to heal each other.
> 
> After reading this thread I can honestly say that I believe if she had gone to you and told you exactly how she was feeling and the desires she was thinking of acting upon (the affairs, namely) you would have been able to help her work through the driving reasons behind them and you two would not be in this position now..
> 
> It's quite sad but I applaud you for being so level-headed and gracious about this. Good job.


Thanks. If I could go back to 1999 where she had her first A that I knew about (we suspect that there were things even prior to this), she was given a pass. She to this day she says, I never had sex. And yet on the recording she is telling this last OM about her A back then. Well seeing the pattern I know darn well she did and I have told her so over the last year. We did not drink in those days. Yet her story was we drove around in his pick up drinking and then she moved in with him (one night) leaving me with two young boys. She was never held to any account. I just accepted that there was no sex.

Lies are all she knows. And now that her family is not buying it anymore it will be interesting to see what she does. At some point she will have to face them.


----------



## Shoshan1290

Thorburn said:


> Thanks. If I could go back to 1999 where she had her first A that I knew about (we suspect that there were things even prior to this), she was given a pass. She to this day she says, I never had sex. And yet on the recording she is telling this last OM about her A back then. Well seeing the pattern I know darn well she did and I have told her so over the last year. We did not drink in those days. Yet her story was we drove around in his pick up drinking and then she moved in with him (one night) leaving me with two young boys. She was never held to any account. I just accepted that there was no sex.
> 
> Lies are all she knows. And now that her family is not buying it anymore it will be interesting to see what she does. At some point she will have to face them.



Yea, that's absolutely disgusting and if I were you I'd be absolutely furious that she so willingly put my health and well-being at risk. Heads would be _rolling_. 

In any case I'm sure she's already facing the things she's done and that is why she is acting so erratically and with so much anger towards you, her family, and her children. She's steadily losing that firm grip she had on everyone and she's panicking. Best to imagine her like a caged, vicious animal because that is exactly what she is at this point. That being said, don't underestimate her and continue to be the awesome person that you are!


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## karole

Thornburn, I just want to say how truly sorry I am that you have to go through this. Your wife obviously has some deep rooted problems that she is going to have to face one way or another. It's heartbreaking reading about what she has done to you over the years. My mother was a lot like your wife. She craved attention and just couldn't turn down any man who showed her any. I don't know what she was searching for throughout her life, but she never found it in anyone no matter how much she tried. My dad loved her too, but it was never enough.


----------



## Thorburn

karole said:


> Thornburn, I just want to say how truly sorry I am that you have to go through this. Your wife obviously has some deep rooted problems that she is going to have to face one way or another. It's heartbreaking reading about what she has done to you over the years. My mother was a lot like your wife. She craved attention and just couldn't turn down any man who showed her any. I don't know what she was searching for throughout her life, but she never found it in anyone no matter how much she tried. My dad loved her too, but it was never enough.


Never is enough is so true.

My oldest BIL said to me today when my WS meets with the pastor and his wife all she will likely do is bash me (that is if she meets with them like she said she would). My BIL said they will see through her and is hoping that they can reach her. He said she is driven by something that is evil.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> Never is enough is so true.
> 
> My oldest BIL said to me today when my WS meets with the pastor and his wife all she will likely do is bash me (that is if she meets with them like she said she would). My BIL said they will see through her and is hoping that they can reach her. He said she is driven by something that is evil.


Yeah....but again, you don't need to concern yourself with this.

You cannot help her anymore Thorburn. She is not your responsibility, and every time she thinks you have a hand in her treatment she's going to resent you and hate you more.

You really need to remove yourself from the equation. 

She is her family's problem now. Quit playing proxy for the BILs. If they want to talk to their sister they can call her themselves. It's not fair for them to use you as middle-man anymore. You need to see to your own well being and health. 

You need to have a come-to-Jesus meeting with her family where you tell your in-laws that at some point there will have to be a cut-off of your interaction in all this.... and the sooner the better. You took care of their sister for 30 years and you got trampled on. 

Time for the in-laws to step up and get hosed.


----------



## Thorburn

I really got hit hard last evening. I got an email in our shared account that I opened and sent a reply to the company for information. It was addressed in my name, "to Mac" saying I need to add time to my phone. It had the last four numbers of a phone number. My WS was upstairs and deleted it right away, but I already had it opened. When I went back into our email I saw it was gone and it was also deleted from trash. I did not know I still had it opened and thought I lost it. Went back and saw that it was still opened so I sent an email giving the company some bogus story and asked for the phone number. 

My son and BIL and his wife said, don't do this, you have enough and all it does is upset you. We all know she has a phone. You do not need more proof.

I know. Let it go. In hindsight I should had let it go. There have been other emails from Verison, hotmail and gmail. Which I wrote down. My WS deleted all but one. It is hard to let this stuff go, but I am working hard on it and will overcome the temptation.

Bills are piling up again and I will have to wait for payday and I already have a priority list of what to pay and what I can't. My WS is spending money on a secret phone, getting her car fixed, etc and I am stuck with trying to handle our affairs the best I can.

I have to finish getting a list of my accounts, bills, etc in order. Make copies of everything to give to the attorney and the credit management company (which still has not replied to my three emails for assistance). The company has forms to guide you through this process so it is easier when you have a checklist. So I am getting paystubs, retirement accounts, bills, mortgages, etc together. 

I feel like a loser. I was warned to not buy the house, that my WS is not remorseful, etc. Yet I placed my hope on my delusional thinking that things were working out. Yet all the signs were there and my WS was even telling me in her own way that she had not stopped.

Why am I having such a hard time letting go? Why am I wired this way? My heart says one thing and my mind says run.

All I can say is that I am moving forward, I am taking action and have not backed down from my decision. I am forcing myself to move forward.

It is very difficult to do these things alone. Facing the bills and most things were shared. 

So, I got that off my chest.

Need to finish getting the accounts together and make copies. 
Need to work on the budget sheet.
Still distancing myself from my WS. Letting go. It is a work in progress but I am moving forward.


----------



## Shaggy

You can look away if you can. If it was me I'd be adding an automatic forwarding rule to the mailbox to send a copy of Ann incoming mail safely to it.

I'm an information junky however because ignoring something like it doesn't exist doesn't make it go away.

Your wife is collecting and spending money while you are dirt broke. You need to be capturing this as this is joint money she is spending. You are working out deal on the mortgage and she's financing her cheating. 

It's ugly, but Thorburn you need to take control here.


----------



## bfree

Thorburn said:


> I really got hit hard last evening. I got an email in our shared account that I opened and sent a reply to the company for information. It was addressed in my name, "to Mac" saying I need to add time to my phone. It had the last four numbers of a phone number. My WS was upstairs and deleted it right away, but I already had it opened. When I went back into our email I saw it was gone and it was also deleted from trash. I did not know I still had it opened and thought I lost it. Went back and saw that it was still opened so I sent an email giving the company some bogus story and asked for the phone number.
> 
> My son and BIL and his wife said, don't do this, you have enough and all it does is upset you. We all know she has a phone. You do not need more proof.
> 
> I know. Let it go. In hindsight I should had let it go. There have been other emails from Verison, hotmail and gmail. Which I wrote down. My WS deleted all but one. It is hard to let this stuff go, but I am working hard on it and will overcome the temptation.
> 
> Bills are piling up again and I will have to wait for payday and I already have a priority list of what to pay and what I can't. My WS is spending money on a secret phone, getting her car fixed, etc and I am stuck with trying to handle our affairs the best I can.
> 
> I have to finish getting a list of my accounts, bills, etc in order. Make copies of everything to give to the attorney and the credit management company (which still has not replied to my three emails for assistance). The company has forms to guide you through this process so it is easier when you have a checklist. So I am getting paystubs, retirement accounts, bills, mortgages, etc together.
> 
> I feel like a loser. I was warned to not buy the house, that my WS is not remorseful, etc. Yet I placed my hope on my delusional thinking that things were working out. Yet all the signs were there and my WS was even telling me in her own way that she had not stopped.
> 
> Why am I having such a hard time letting go? Why am I wired this way? My heart says one thing and my mind says run.
> 
> All I can say is that I am moving forward, I am taking action and have not backed down from my decision. I am forcing myself to move forward.
> 
> It is very difficult to do these things alone. Facing the bills and most things were shared.
> 
> So, I got that off my chest.
> 
> Need to finish getting the accounts together and make copies.
> Need to work on the budget sheet.
> Still distancing myself from my WS. Letting go. It is a work in progress but I am moving forward.


I posted this in another thread but you sound very much like him so I'm sharing it here.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/1504461-post291.html


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> You can look away if you can. If it was me I'd be adding an automatic forwarding rule to the mailbox to send a copy of Ann incoming mail safely to it.
> 
> I'm an information junky however because ignoring something like it doesn't exist doesn't make it go away.
> 
> Your wife is collecting and spending money while you are dirt broke. You need to be capturing this as this is joint money she is spending. You are working out deal on the mortgage and she's financing her cheating.
> 
> It's ugly, but Thorburn you need to take control here.


I do have most of the emails forwarded to my account. When I first set it up it brought almost all the emails over to my account and my WS asked me what I did. I told her that I wanted to forward some of the emails over to see what we are selling. I fixed it to where I get most of the emails in my account and they also stay in our joint account. But for some reason it is not 100%. Some emails don't forward.


----------



## Thorburn

bfree said:


> I posted this in another thread but you sound very much like him so I'm sharing it here.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/1504461-post291.html


Man. Well thought out and well written. It struck a nerve. I will need to process this. I have always told people that there are more fish in the sea when their relationships have broken down. 

For me the journey of the shock (again), letting go, trying to come to terms with myself, loneliness, the what ifs, the broken promises and dreams, the pressures of finances, work, etc are all jumbled up and peeling back these layers and fighting the battles and focusing on priorites, when I feel so lost and confused. Feeling if I had a friend who could literally be present and help me with some of the construction in my house and I in turn could help them with projects at their house. My sunroom is at the point where I need an extra hand to put up the beams, etc. Help with my truck, etc. Just to keep my mind and body occupied. A simple request but all my friends live too far away.

Getting back to your point of oneitis. In my religous point of view I have never accepted the concept that there is just one person for anyone. I have been taught that there are many possibilities, one better perhaps than another but never just one. But I do believe that when we marry the one it is for better or worse and in some cases it is OK to move on in a marriage.


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## warlock07

Thorburn. I have a suggestion with regards to the mail she is deleting... Just add an automatic mail forwarding service from your joint email to your email(that you created just for this), just in case . Best case, it will help you get better terms during divorce


----------



## Thorburn

warlock07 said:


> Thorburn. I have a suggestion with regards to the mail she is deleting... Just add an automatic mail forwarding service from your joint email to your email(that you created just for this), just in case . Best case, it will help you get better terms during divorce


I have done this. For some reason not all have migrated or they have created new folders. But for the most part they do forward.


----------



## spudster

Well you're not a loser Thorburn. Yeah you made a tactical error buying the new house before you knew your R was false, but you can put one of the houses up for sale and try to make the best of the situation. Its water under the bridge and just suck it up to experience. 

Your gut has never let you down. Too bad you have such a big heart. You do allow yourself to be led around by your heart. That probably why people love ya. Doesn't make for a very secure life though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## spudster

How are you holding up Thorburn?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

spudster said:


> How are you holding up Thorburn?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Moving forward at a snails pace. Still in disbelief that my M is over, but following through with all my plans. Can't believe how hard my WS's heart is. Feels like a nuclear bomb. To see her family and mine struggling with this and on top of it them, hoping that she turns around. It is surreal.

But as my middle BIL wrote me this morning. He is praying for a God inspired conclusion soon to this mess. Unfortunately, I don't see a conclusion happening soon. The legal process is what it is and with so many ifs all I can say is it will be a wild ride for a while.

I am not drinking, not raging, not bitter and have no desire to go there.

I feel like the guy waiting for the guillotine to drop. Get it over with, the anticipation is killing me.

Financially the timing could not be worse. I know I am going to owe taxes this year. Broke. Can't pay all the bills.

So I guess I am doing great. Lol. It stinks.

Last night I was laughing at some Jib Jab movies I made over the years. 

Like I teach my Veterans. Control yourself because you can't control others or many circumstances. When life comes at you and overwhelms you work on controlling yourself. And so far I think I am doing fairly well in that department.

At least I get to sleep on the king size tempurpedic bed and she still complains that her back hurts. Though I have not seen her in two days. She hides out in her room.


----------



## spudster

Its hard to start over Thorburn. But you know, after you crawl through the brambles, you're going to be a stronger person having weathered this. You have to believe that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

spudster said:


> Its hard to start over Thorburn. But you know, after you crawl through the brambles, you're going to be a stronger person having weathered this. You have to believe that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I survived Katyusha rockets in Iraq and bullets flying, and believe me I know how to crawl through just about anything including razor wire (not fun) but, yes, you come out stronger.


----------



## spudster

Thorburn said:


> I survived Katyusha rockets in Iraq and bullets flying, and believe me I know how to crawl through just about anything including razor wire (not fun) but, yes, you come out stronger.


At least in Iraq you knew who your enemies were. 

I think for you, the real horror, is that moment whe you finally wrapped your head around the reality that for thirty years you have been living with someone who you didn't even really know. 

I can't fathom it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SaltInWound

spudster said:


> At least in Iraq you knew who your enemies were.
> 
> I think for you, the real horror, is that moment whe you finally wrapped your head around the reality that for thirty years you have been living with someone who you didn't even really know.
> 
> *I can't fathom it.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can. It is more excruciating than anything you can ever imagine going through. For me, it is like watching a gore movie and the victim on the screen is yourself. It would be like you have been prepped for surgery and the anesthesia doesn't work quite right. You are conscious, yet you are immobile and can't scream to let them know you can feel the whole thing. You are numb and pray every day that you wake up from this nightmare because it really can't be happening. You pray that the person you loved with all your soul will snap out of it and fix this. It is like a slow, painful death that can't be avoided. This double agent, Jekkyl/Hyde can't possibly be your spouse.

I have been with my husband for 22 years. I have discovered so much about my husband's secret life over the last 3 months. A bank account, obscene amounts of hidden money, secret loans, ONSs, a woman being moved into our home (the english speaking teenager who used to live in our old neighborhood 9 years ago, and we had moved several miles from 7 years ago), unknown toxic friends. Understanding the porn addiction and the sexual problems in our marriage, the gambling addiction that had gone underground and was raging. Coping with the fact that my husband waited until I was out of country receiving medical care to make me legally homeless, abandon me, and cut off communication.

Coping with the knowledge that over a year ago my husband met up with a mutual friend in another city and instead of acknowledging me when asked, he quickly began bragging about his wh0res. Knowing that I found out about it a year later....a month after I had been dumped. Coping with the knowledge that he now has nothing to do with our grown son either. Discovering info on his facebook and myspace and other personal info found through an internet search of his name, location, and e-mail address that makes you want to puke. He has an extremely unhealthy obsession with sex to the point he "fondly remembers the bar girl frequently inviting him back to the trailer behind the bar and wonders how many other young men were invited back there". That is so gross to imagine a man fondly wondering who else shared that bar wh0re, yet he describes her as a sweet girl who stole his heart. 

As the onion layers peel, they reveal a blackened core that I don't recognize. I have been bound and gagged, trapped in my own thoughts, because I have been unable to confront the coward who caused the destruction of my life and hides from me. Is this really the same man who used to hold me when I suffered migraines and warmed my frozen feet? I don't even know him.


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## Thorburn

SaltInWound said:


> I can. It is more excruciating than anything you can ever imagine going through. For me, it is like watching a gore movie and the victim on the screen is yourself. It would be like you have been prepped for surgery and the anesthesia doesn't work quite right. You are conscious, yet you are immobile and can't scream to let them know you can feel the whole thing. You are numb and pray every day that you wake up from this nightmare because it really can't be happening. You pray that the person you loved with all your soul will snap out of it and fix this. It is like a slow, painful death that can't be avoided. This double agent, Jekkyl/Hyde can't possibly be your spouse.
> 
> I have been with my husband for 22 years. I have discovered so much about my husband's secret life over the last 3 months. A bank account, obscene amounts of hidden money, secret loans, ONSs, a woman being moved into our home (the english speaking teenager who used to live in our old neighborhood 9 years ago, and we had moved several miles from 7 years ago), unknown toxic friends. Understanding the porn addiction and the sexual problems in our marriage, the gambling addiction that had gone underground and was raging. Coping with the fact that my husband waited until I was out of country receiving medical care to make me legally homeless, abandon me, and cut off communication.
> 
> Coping with the knowledge that over a year ago my husband met up with a mutual friend in another city and instead of acknowledging me when asked, he quickly began bragging about his wh0res. Knowing that I found out about it a year later....a month after I had been dumped. Coping with the knowledge that he now has nothing to do with our grown son either. Discovering info on his facebook and myspace and other personal info found through an internet search of his name, location, and e-mail address that makes you want to puke. He has an extremely unhealthy obsession with sex to the point he "fondly remembers the bar girl frequently inviting him back to the trailer behind the bar and wonders how many other young men were invited back there". That is so gross to imagine a man fondly wondering who else shared that bar wh0re, yet he describes her as a sweet girl who stole his heart.
> 
> As the onion layers peel, they reveal a blackened core that I don't recognize. I have been bound and gagged, trapped in my own thoughts, because I have been unable to confront the coward who caused the destruction of my life and hides from me. Is this really the same man who used to hold me when I suffered migraines and warmed my frozen feet? I don't even know him.


"Is this really the same man who used to hold me when I suffered migraines and warmed my frozen feet? I don't even know him"

Man, you all get it. There are moments still where I just can't believe it. Last night I had to listen to part of the recording to knock me back into reality.


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## bfree

Thorburn said:


> "Is this really the same man who used to hold me when I suffered migraines and warmed my frozen feet? I don't even know him"
> 
> Man, you all get it. There are moments still where I just can't believe it. Last night I had to listen to part of the recording to knock me back into reality.


When I found out my ex was having affairs, yes affairs, while we were married I was devastated. When she told me that if I were more of a man she wouldn't need to "find" other men I was paralyzed. I stayed in my house for months unable to function and wishing to die. Then I spiraled into a self destructive phase that I finally pulled out of three years later. Yes we know Thorburn, we know. But now I'm happily remarried for many years with wonderful children and a great life. There is light at the end of the tunnel. It just sucks having to go through the tunnel to find it.


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## strugglinghusband




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## turnera

btw, thank you for serving.


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## Jonesey

Thorburn said:


> Moving forward at a snails pace. Still in disbelief that my M is over, but following through with all my plans. Can't believe how hard my WS's heart is. Feels like a nuclear bomb. To see her family and mine struggling with this and on top of it them, hoping that she turns around. It is surreal.
> 
> But as my middle BIL wrote me this morning. He is praying for a God inspired conclusion soon to this mess. Unfortunately, I don't see a conclusion happening soon. The legal process is what it is and with so many ifs all I can say is it will be a wild ride for a while.
> 
> I am not drinking, not raging, not bitter and have no desire to go there.
> 
> I feel like the guy waiting for the guillotine to drop. Get it over with, the anticipation is killing me.
> 
> Financially the timing could not be worse. I know I am going to owe taxes this year. Broke. Can't pay all the bills.
> 
> So I guess I am doing great. Lol. It stinks.
> 
> Last night I was laughing at some Jib Jab movies I made over the years.
> 
> Like I teach my Veterans. Control yourself because you can't control others or many circumstances. When life comes at you and overwhelms you work on controlling yourself. And so far I think I am doing fairly well in that department.
> 
> At least I get to sleep on the king size tempurpedic bed and she still complains that her back hurts. Though I have not seen her in two days. She hides out in her room.



Here is something that comes to mind..Take it for what its worth


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## Fisherman

Jonesey said:


> Here is something that comes to mind..Take it for what its worth


Wow, that says it all.


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## Chaparral

Have you read this? 

*originally posted by carmen ohio:

While I greatly respect the other posters on this thread, I believe many of them, like you, are missing the big picture here -- namely, what should you do to regain your happiness.

From reading your notes, it is clear that you were absent from class the day they handed out the "how to be happy" instructions. So let me fill you in on The 10 Rules for Happiness:

Rule No. 1: You only get one life; never forget that. Corollary: You don't know how long you will live, you could live another 50 years or you might die tomorrow; never forget that either.

Rule No. 2: Deal with things as they really are, not as you would like them to be. Face up to your problems rather than pretending they don't exist or hoping they will simply go away.

Rule No. 3: You are solely responsible for your own happiness: don't expect or look to others to make you happy.

Rule No. 4: Your decisions and actions will have the greatest impact on your happiness. If you do the right things, your life will be better and vice versa. Corollary: Be honest with yourself about your failings and genuinely seek to improve yourself.

Rule No. 5: There is no guarantee that you will always be happy: some people win life's lottery, most don't and some people get the shaft. Corollary 1: Don't complain about the cards you are dealt or wallow in self-pity. Instead, focus on what you can control and learn not to worry about the rest. Corollary 2: Understand that it sometimes takes time and effort to regain your happiness.

Rule No. 6: Understand what makes you happy and what doesn't. Corollary 1: Since you will change over time, reconsider from time to time what will make you happy now and adjust your decisions and actions accordingly. Corollary 2: When something happens that makes you very unhappy, consider the totality of the situation: sometimes cutting down a few trees is the answer, other times you need to look for a new forest in which to live.

Rule No. 7: Do what makes you happy. Don't do what others (parents, friends, bosses, spouses, even children) want you to do unless it is what makes you happy. This might sound selfish but it's not. Some people are happiest when they are serving others (e.g., firemen, Mother Teresa). 

Rule No. 8: If you are unhappy about something, eliminate it from your life or, if that is not possible, minimize the degree of unhappiness it can cause you. If it's a situation (like a bad job), change it. If it's a thing (like a poorly operating car), get rid of it. If it's a person (like a wayward spouse), stop interacting or least minimize contact with the person. Corollary: When something or someone starts to cause you unhappiness, take action immediately; don't wait around hoping things will get better.

Rule No. 9: You don't apologize to anyone for doing what makes you happy. Corollary: You have no obligation to explain yourself or justify your decisions or actions. If you choose to do so, it should only be because it is to your advantage to do so.

Rule No. 10: Be the best person you can be, as you measure things. For most men, this means being fit and attractive to members of the opposite sex, being financially successfully and being emotionally strong and independent. But if you measure life success differently (e.g., displaying Christian virtues, gaining notoriety, acquiring power), then make these the main focus of you efforts.

If we apply these rules to your situation, it become readily apparent that you are breaking all the rules. For example:

☻ You are focused in the moment rather than thinking about how you want to live the rest of your life (violation of Rule No. 1). 

☻ You are more concerned about what your W may or may not have done rather than dealing with what you know she has done (violation of Rule No. 2).

☻ You seek affirmation from your W of your self-worth and the guidance of strangers as to what you should do, rather than taking responsibility for yourself (violation of Rule Nos. 3, 4 and 9).

☻ You are reluctant to take steps to improve your situation and instead are wallowing in self-pity and shame (violation of Rule Nos. 5, 7, 8 and 10).

☻ You seem not to have thought deeply about what you really want out of life (violation of Rule No. 6). 

☻ You reject the notion that your life may have to radically change in order for you to (eventually) be happy (another violation of Rule No. 6).

Based on the facts as you have recited them, I believe you have ample reason to be unhappy in your current circumstances and sufficient justification for taking action. So let me offer you an alternative approach to your problem that is consistent with the Rules of Happiness:

1. Sit your W down and tell her that you are so unhappy with your marriage that you are prepared to end it. Explain that, given what you know (OM's note, her hiding her phone messages, etc.), you can only conclude that either she is having an affair or that she doesn't care about you (as these are the only two reasons why she would not have taken steps to address your concerns when you first raised them). Say that, in either case, you would rather end your marriage than continue it since you deserve and are confident that you can have better than what you have right now.

2. Tell her that, out of love for her and your children, you are willing to give her one last chance to save her marriage and prove to you that she is a worthy wife. This requires her telling you everything that has happened between her and her boss, showing you all of her e-mails and text messages, giving you access to all of her communications in the future, immediately terminating all contact with her boss, demonstrating by word and deed on a daily basis that she loves and respects you and doing whatever else you require for her to prove her worth.

3. Tell her that it is her choice whether to do these things or not but, if she chooses not to, you plan to hire an attorney and file for divorce.

4. Stay calm and collected and don't argue with her. If she questions or challenges anything you say, calmly reply that she now knows what you expect of her and it is up to her to decide what she wants to do. Repeat your message as many times as necessary until she realizes that you mean what you say.

5. Give her a very short period of time to consider this. For example, tell her that you plan to speak to an attorney the next day so, if she wants to save her marriage, she has but a few hours to accept your offer.

6. If she refuses, immediately speak to an attorney and commence divorce proceedings.

7. If she agrees, continue to monitor her closely to make sure she does not go underground. Don't tolerate her complaining or pouting for more than a couple of days. If you get any indication that she is not serious about following through with her promise, start divorce proceedings.

8. For the foreseeable future, be cordial toward your W but nothing more. Don't initiate conversations, compliment her, argue with her or do anything else that would lead her to believe that she is anything special to you. Act at all times like a man who knows what he wants and knows that he can get what he wants, if not from her, then somewhere else.

9. Begin to take steps to improve yourself (exercise, work, activities). Make this -- along with your kids -- the focus of your life for now.

10. Start to educate yourself on what it takes to be a man in the 21st century. A good place to start is to read "The Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay.

If you take these steps, I can't guarantee that you will end up in a happy marriage with your current W but I can promise that, eventually, you will give yourself the greatest chance of finding true happiness. The key point is that you can't control your W but you can control you. Hence, you should be doing the things that will eventually make you happy, whether your W wants to be with you or not.

I'm not saying any of this will be easy; it may be the hardest thing you will ever have to do. But unless you do it, your life will likely only get worse.

Wishing the best for you.*


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## bfree

Jonesey said:


> Here is something that comes to mind..Take it for what its worth


I like that a lot.


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## Jonesey

bfree said:


> I like that a lot.



Thanks. I just found it yesterday.. T ought it would be fitting for OP


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## Jonesey

strugglinghusband said:


>



PLEASE DUDE this is my fifth Seizure ..Change your avatar please


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## spudster

Thorburn where are you? 

You make us nervous when you don't check in. What are you coordinates soldier?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

spudster said:


> Thorburn where are you?
> 
> You make us nervous when you don't check in. What are you coordinates soldier?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Met with the attorney. took some time off work. Just got home a little while ago. Shared a Bible verse with my special needs son. Talked to my oldest BIL about my plans. Will talk to my middle BIL tonight. Seems like the middle sister is on board with the fam. Not that I planned it this way but it looks like her entire immediate family has turned on her. My WS has reached out to our nieces and they are talking and supporting her, they are my kids age, and one had an A about two years ago and they are not the brightest. Then I heard that a HS friend who she has not been in contact with in over 33 years offered to have her move in with her and he husband in Texas, yeeha. I doubt she will do it, but I hope she does. 

I have more to say about the attorney. Right now I am going over what he said and figuring out what steps to take.


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## bandit.45

What did the lawyer say about her adultery. Can he use it against her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badbane

Thorburn said:


> Which god? Not the one I have learned about in church or Sunday school. Heck, I have been a Lutheran, a Presbyterian, a Baptist, and joined other denominations over the years, depending on where I lived and honestly, though the service formalities may differ the teachings have all been consistant.
> 
> Her god is a self-centered god called self.
> 
> When she was in counseling last year she wrote herself a letter. I don't know if she knows it or not but I read it. She has kept that letter hidden. In part it says she lost herself due to pain in her life, lost of her parents, special needs son, a selfish husband, and that god turned his back on her. She said she lost herself. The A in 2011 was something she did for herself, it was special, she said I know it was wrong but it took away the pain. And she wrote that she turned to pornagraphy as an escape.
> 
> So one messed up person. Angry at me.
> 
> I don't have a pity party for me. All I know is that I did not cause this in her and it goes beyond anything I have ever dealt with in counseling and I really need to keep focused on moving forward.
> 
> Am I hurting? Sure I am. I loved her and still do. She was my life. Am I at fault? No! Hel* no!!!. She did this out of complete selfishness and is blaming me and saying I was selfish.


Yea she is definitely a sex addict. Her go to coping mechanism is an orgasm or chasing hormones on her back. I am sorry your W is not the person that you married. I am sorry that you are having to deal with someone who lacks all empathy and cannot manage to handle her issues. She may have lost her self but her actions only lead her further astray. Further from everyone. The men she is with now are nothing but toys to her. A means to a fix. 
Thor you deserve a whole lot better. You deserve someone who cares about you. Someone who will be a partner to you. Steele your gaze to the future. Try to not think of this as the end of your marriage. That happened a long time ago. Your just tying up some legal loose ends right now. Marriage has nothing to do with white dresses, and joint bank accouts. It has to do with love, commitment, and trust. Just because some legal paper says you are married means nothing. Think of where you could be if you stayed with her. Misery loves company. Now you get to be the best version of yourself. It might be hard to see it now, but you might just find some one else to give you all the things that you never knew you were supposed to get out of love. You are no longer in a helpless situation with someone who cannot help themselves. You are now free to hope for a better future without the dead weight of a love junkie on you your back. Good luck.


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> What did the lawyer say about her adultery. Can he use it against her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes and no. We could win a battle but lose the war. It is a card you play carefully in a no fault state. If I go fault which is an option (rarely done here in PA) it will be expensive. But it is a card we have to play if needed.


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## Thorburn

OK, just cut off (suspended her phone). She should realize it soon. Since she has a cheater phone she can start using it to talk to her family, friends and of course her lovers. Hope she does not get confused.

Money is next. Cutting her off. I will buy the groceries and pay the bills. She will have to find a way to pay for gas ect, since she has money coming in.

Then I will look at what else I can cut. Man, I love the legal system. At least right now.

It is going to get more uglier. Yea, I using bad English.

It will get worse before it gets better. But I am taking the hill.


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## CantSitStill

Get money out of joint accounts and put it in your own account, take her name off of the credit cards.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

CantSitStill said:


> Get money out of joint accounts and put it in your own account, take her name off of the credit cards.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Working on it. Not as easy as I would like. I have commitments on the joint account. Stopping credit cards. But future money will be transferred immediately until I get some things changed.


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## Thorburn

My special needs son asked me to take him to Wendy's. I said yes. Just got back. Well my WS came down before we left and said, "What did you do to my phone?" I said it is out of service. She said I need my phone to contact my boss. I said you have another phone. She said No I don't. My phone is our phone it is all on the same account and I want you to put it back in service or I will. I said, I don't want to argue but you will not be able to put the phone back in service. She said I am going to see an attorney. She said stop controlling me. I said I am not controlling you, I said I am praying for you. She said, you can't pray and control me at the same time and I will not be controlled.

If I could describe her look. She looked like fire was coming out of her eyes. 

Right now she is in the basement looking for one of our old phones. I can hear her going through the boxes. I know there are several old phones down there. I know she has the burner phone or at least did last week as I saw the charger. Now she stumped upstairs, slamming doors.

My middle BIL called me a little while ago. He is a missionary and just got back from South Africa. His wife's grandfather F.F. Bosworth was one of the founders of the Assembly of God denomination and her father was an evangelist in Africa and India. Anyway my BIL can be very forthright. He told me he told his middle sister (the one who has been giving moral support to my WS) to knock it off. He said he told her that their sister is lying, is evil and has mental problems and she better not help her is any way. He said he was very firm with her. I know him. He can be very firm. He said my WS has severe mental issues.

I said I cut off her phone and will cut off money very soon.

Funny how my WS says I am controlling her and yet her car is parked outside, she is free to come and go whenever she wants. She can pack up and leave at anytime. I leave her alone yet she says I am controlling her. Maybe my mind control super powers are active again.


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## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> It will get worse before it gets better. But I am taking the hill.


"Fix bayonets! No prisoners."


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## Thorburn

Machiavelli said:


> "Fix bayonets! No prisoners."


This is the woman I loved. Who a few weeks ago wanted to cut a $2,000.00 Tempurpedic bed in half. 

So yea, Mount up, fix bayonets, charge and take no prisoners. Maybe I should put some claymores out in front of my bedroom doors with trip wires.


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## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> This is the woman I loved. Who a few weeks ago wanted to cut a $2,000.00 Tempurpedic bed in half.
> 
> So yea, Mount up, fix bayonets, charge and take no prisoners. Maybe I should put some claymores out in front of my bedroom doors with trip wires.


I just had a vision of you with your M-16, firinga flare gun up in the air...one of those flares with the parachute...lighting up the jungle looking for your wife who has broken the perimeter and is working her way towards you in the undergrowth.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Thorburn~

It has been my experience that when people have a mental illness and/or have hardened their hearts spiritual (doing what they know they should not do), that when the light is shown and they are ... well let's say back into a corner... they will do some extremely ugly things because they have nothing left to lose. 

I'm writing to you tonight as a bit of a warning. I'm praying it doesn't happen this way for you, but I've seen it over and over where first they try to get what they need/want by being charming--then if that doesn't work they'll try some threats--and then when that doesn't work AND simultaneously they are shown for what they are...it can get bad really quick. Shoot, you're a soldier. You know what happens when someone thinks they are cornered and have nothing to lose! It can get like a Tasmanian Devil!

Soooo tonight, right now, I'm asking you my friend, to prepare your heart. Put a little shield around your heart and know that when she comes out swinging like a wildcat, in a way it is the real her and in a way it is not...it is a desperate woman. On the one hand, you'll see the woman you love melting down and trying to take you down with you in the most hurtful way possible, and it will hurt like the ****ens...but if you prepare your heard now and know that it's coming, maybe at the time you'll also be able to look at her and see and addict who is freaking out because their supply just got cut off. When an addict's supply is cut off, they will do anything....ANY THING.... to get their supply back. And it can get really, truly, dirty ugly. 

I'm sincerely praying it does not come to that, but if it does, brace yourself and we'll be here to help you not crumble. Okay?

~~~~~~~~~~
Okay, part two of this charming and uplifting message is sort of a reassurance. I know that she says you are controlling her, and I know that a larger part of your head knows you're not controlling her, but I want to make sure you are 100% not fooled by her deflections and blame. Thorburn, if she is chosen to be unfaithful to you and thus chosen to destroy the marriage, then the reasonable and rightful COST of her choice is that she loses the benefits of the marriage. Let me say this simply: She could have chosen you and the benefit would be the finances and 30 years of security, but the cost would have been giving up the cheating. She could have chosen to continue cheating and the benefit is continuing the addictive fix, but the cost is giving up the finances and security. 

As a fully grown, adult female, she is completely responsible for her own self, her own circumstances, her own finances and making her own way in this world. Even when she is married, she is responsible too. See, when a couple is married, even when they agree together that the husband will provide financially while the wife stays home and raises the children...the underlying agreement is also that both of them take those roles FOR THE SECURITY OF THE FAMILY AND THE BETTERMENT OF THEIR MARRIAGE. She agrees to give up her career ladder for the good of the family but she's responsible for choosing to do that! He agrees to devote time to work for the good of their family! And they both reach that agreement together so that their marriage is strong and mutual. Thus, if she's going to go against the marriage, it is right and reasonable for her then to also return to providing for herself--and that includes income and a place to live and food and everything. 

So Thorburn, by turning off her phone you are not controlling her. She is completely free to get another account and reactivate her phone and be responsible for it financially. She is completely free to go to another provider! She can talk to anyone whom she chooses, and she can pay for it any way she so desires. See? She is FAR from being controlled. What you ARE doing, though, is that you are no longer allowing her to manipulate YOU into taking her responsibilities. 

~~~~~~~~~
Finally, just a small word of warning: since she keeps bringing up the word "controlling" and since you've mentioned that she's tried to play the abuse card before, you may want to start carrying a VAR with you at all times. It is a very common tactic these days for unscrupulous attorneys to suggest to their female clients to antagonize their stbx husbands into a fury, get him to punch a wall or swing at them or rage, then call the cops, get a restraining order, and the hubby is OUT OF THE HOUSE. So rather than falling into the trap of "Oh she would NEVER do that" I suggest that you carry a VAR and record every single time you talk to her. Just show it to her in your hand, turn it on, say "I am recording this conversation. If you continue to speak with me, I'll take that as your permission to tape you." Then either she'll shut up and leave you alone...or whatever occurs you'll have proof of what REALLY happened should there be an attempt to provoke an altercation.


----------



## Thorburn

Affaircare said:


> Thorburn~
> 
> It has been my experience that when people have a mental illness and/or have hardened their hearts spiritual (doing what they know they should not do), that when the light is shown and they are ... well let's say back into a corner... they will do some extremely ugly things because they have nothing left to lose.
> 
> I'm writing to you tonight as a bit of a warning. I'm praying it doesn't happen this way for you, but I've seen it over and over where first they try to get what they need/want by being charming--then if that doesn't work they'll try some threats--and then when that doesn't work AND simultaneously they are shown for what they are...it can get bad really quick. Shoot, you're a soldier. You know what happens when someone thinks they are cornered and have nothing to lose! It can get like a Tasmanian Devil!
> 
> Soooo tonight, right now, I'm asking you my friend, to prepare your heart. Put a little shield around your heart and know that when she comes out swinging like a wildcat, in a way it is the real her and in a way it is not...it is a desperate woman. On the one hand, you'll see the woman you love melting down and trying to take you down with you in the most hurtful way possible, and it will hurt like the ****ens...but if you prepare your heard now and know that it's coming, maybe at the time you'll also be able to look at her and see and addict who is freaking out because their supply just got cut off. When an addict's supply is cut off, they will do anything....ANY THING.... to get their supply back. And it can get really, truly, dirty ugly.
> 
> I'm sincerely praying it does not come to that, but if it does, brace yourself and we'll be here to help you not crumble. Okay?
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~
> Okay, part two of this charming and uplifting message is sort of a reassurance. I know that she says you are controlling her, and I know that a larger part of your head knows you're not controlling her, but I want to make sure you are 100% not fooled by her deflections and blame. Thorburn, if she is chosen to be unfaithful to you and thus chosen to destroy the marriage, then the reasonable and rightful COST of her choice is that she loses the benefits of the marriage. Let me say this simply: She could have chosen you and the benefit would be the finances and 30 years of security, but the cost would have been giving up the cheating. She could have chosen to continue cheating and the benefit is continuing the addictive fix, but the cost is giving up the finances and security.
> 
> As a fully grown, adult female, she is completely responsible for her own self, her own circumstances, her own finances and making her own way in this world. Even when she is married, she is responsible too. See, when a couple is married, even when they agree together that the husband will provide financially while the wife stays home and raises the children...the underlying agreement is also that both of them take those roles FOR THE SECURITY OF THE FAMILY AND THE BETTERMENT OF THEIR MARRIAGE. She agrees to give up her career ladder for the good of the family but she's responsible for choosing to do that! He agrees to devote time to work for the good of their family! And they both reach that agreement together so that their marriage is strong and mutual. Thus, if she's going to go against the marriage, it is right and reasonable for her then to also return to providing for herself--and that includes income and a place to live and food and everything.
> 
> So Thorburn, by turning off her phone you are not controlling her. She is completely free to get another account and reactivate her phone and be responsible for it financially. She is completely free to go to another provider! She can talk to anyone whom she chooses, and she can pay for it any way she so desires. See? She is FAR from being controlled. What you ARE doing, though, is that you are no longer allowing her to manipulate YOU into taking her responsibilities.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~
> Finally, just a small word of warning: since she keeps bringing up the word "controlling" and since you've mentioned that she's tried to play the abuse card before, you may want to start carrying a VAR with you at all times. It is a very common tactic these days for unscrupulous attorneys to suggest to their female clients to antagonize their stbx husbands into a fury, get him to punch a wall or swing at them or rage, then call the cops, get a restraining order, and the hubby is OUT OF THE HOUSE. So rather than falling into the trap of "Oh she would NEVER do that" I suggest that you carry a VAR and record every single time you talk to her. Just show it to her in your hand, turn it on, say "I am recording this conversation. If you continue to speak with me, I'll take that as your permission to tape you." Then either she'll shut up and leave you alone...or whatever occurs you'll have proof of what REALLY happened should there be an attempt to provoke an altercation.


I told my middle BIL that I have some fear of her. I do understand that she could do anything in her state. I got rid of the guns. Right now I am at peace, seriously.

If this was me that got caught and my WS would not want to reconcile I would have left, she would had made me leave.

She got caught big time and has no plan. I still don't think she has a plan. She put the antique business check on the table and it is still sitting there. I honestly thought she would keep it as she said there is a check coming in the mail and I am going to use it, yet there it sits and I think she wants me to put it in the bank.

Like I said, this is surreal.

Her family has basically cut her off. Her family that she has run to so many times, that bought her lies and manipulation, they are not putting up with her. Her family that was so precious to her. Yet she cut them off in 2008 except her younger brother. Then reconciled with her middle sister last April. Now they are cutting her off.

I don't get why she does not leave but I know why. If she leaves, then legally it hurts her. If she leaves then where does she stay? A guy? That would make matters worse for her as my youngest son has already threatened her about doing something like that. He said, mom if you end up with a dude during this time I will kill the guy.

I don't like this situation at all but I am not bitter, don't have rage, and am not very angry at all. I have pity for her.

I am having moments of laughing again. I was watching a Steve Martin movie I never saw before this morning (Cheaper by the Dozen) and found myself laughing, until the couple started arguing and I had to turn it off. But I feel somewhat empowered since yesterday. I know what I can legally do and that gives me a sense of some control.

I going over to the neighbors for a little bit and share some things with him.


----------



## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> This is the woman I loved. Who a few weeks ago wanted to cut a $2,000.00 Tempurpedic bed in half.


Use an M1905 with the 16" blade to divide that mattress. You'll need the extra length.



Thorburn said:


> So yea, Mount up, fix bayonets, charge and take no prisoners. Maybe I should put some claymores out in front of my bedroom doors with trip wires.


Ummm.... claymores. Just remember, "front toward enemy."

Joking aside, you do keep a lock on your door, right?


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## Affaircare

Thorburn~

Please don't take this wrong. My comments have little or nothing to do with *your* state of mind. I'm not there, so I can't tell for a certainty, but from the way you write, you sound like you're dealing with it as best you can AND in a fairly healthy way. 

Nope, my comments are all about HER state of mind. She has no plan. She literally has nothing to lose. She is an addict backed into a corner having to face HERSELF and she will fight like a wildcat to avoid that. Now, her method of avoidance may not be screaming, yelling and physical altercation...but that is certainly the picture she is trying to paint OF YOU. And it's not as if she is turning to godly counsel and getting good advice about how to repent or even be fair in a divorce! Nope, she is getting advice from those who encourage self-centered, entitled thinking and "get him if he got you" kind of thinking. 

That is why I made the comments I made. You are pretty much on track and doing well from what I can see. You seem to have it as "together" as can be expected, you don't have spite and vitreol in your heart, and you're acting from a place of some wisdom, strength and love. But I've seen it time and again: out of the blue the non-repentant, angry disloyal spouse hurls the most hurtful, hateful thing at the loyal spouse, who reacts out of pain and BOOM the disloyal says: "SEE!! I told you he was abusive! Look at the hatred!" Of course, they don't mention that just before your reaction they ran over your dog or use one of your kids as a pawn. Nope it's just you and your reaction (which would be understandable-ish if people knew why...) and then cops are called, she says "Well look at the hole in the wall! I had to duck to avoid being hit" and you are hauled off, you have to go to anger management, you have a domestic violence record, and you can't go back to the house.

Seriously, Thorburn. I do get it. I DO!! But I've seen addicts who are cut off from their supply. You've been around the block a time or too. I bet you've seen 'em too! So you tell me: do they do desperate, horrible things? 

Final word of caution, and then I'm going to assume you heard the words of warning and chose to ignore them: it would be wise to put a lock on your bedroom door. When people are "roommates only" and rent out rooms in a house, each bedroom has a lock for privacy and security. In this current state, I would not put it beyond her to go into your room and literally cut the bed in half! So if you want to secure your things, I would suggest buying a new doorknob from Walmart and installing a simple door lock on your bedroom door. Then if she does break into it, you can reasonably report it to document it. If there's no lock and you were previously married, I don't think anyone would take that report really as there's no reasonable expectation of security from a spouse.


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## illwill

Thor, I have not posted to you before, but I've read your thread, and just be careful... Something about this thread and your wife scares me. Do you have a lock on your bedroom door? If not, get one.


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## MEM2020

*Low intensity conflict*

Thor,
This is going to be 'low intensity conflict'. I think we all know that your wife is capable of some desperate and BAD behavior. 

Your bedroom door needs to be locked - a real lock she can't open with a screw driver. 

You need to carry a VAR and just:
- tell her soon as you get it: I have a var and am recording our conversations 
- email her and copy your attorney that you are carrying a var around for your conversations with her

She is likely to try and get YOU to lose your temper and say something which taken out of context will make you look like the bad guy. 

If you simply assume that all interactions are her positioning to anger you, she will fail.


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## Thorburn

Affaircare said:


> Thorburn~
> 
> Please don't take this wrong. My comments have little or nothing to do with *your* state of mind. I'm not there, so I can't tell for a certainty, but from the way you write, you sound like you're dealing with it as best you can AND in a fairly healthy way.
> 
> Nope, my comments are all about HER state of mind. She has no plan. She literally has nothing to lose. She is an addict backed into a corner having to face HERSELF and she will fight like a wildcat to avoid that. Now, her method of avoidance may not be screaming, yelling and physical altercation...but that is certainly the picture she is trying to paint OF YOU. And it's not as if she is turning to godly counsel and getting good advice about how to repent or even be fair in a divorce! Nope, she is getting advice from those who encourage self-centered, entitled thinking and "get him if he got you" kind of thinking.
> 
> That is why I made the comments I made. You are pretty much on track and doing well from what I can see. You seem to have it as "together" as can be expected, you don't have spite and vitreol in your heart, and you're acting from a place of some wisdom, strength and love. But I've seen it time and again: out of the blue the non-repentant, angry disloyal spouse hurls the most hurtful, hateful thing at the loyal spouse, who reacts out of pain and BOOM the disloyal says: "SEE!! I told you he was abusive! Look at the hatred!" Of course, they don't mention that just before your reaction they ran over your dog or use one of your kids as a pawn. Nope it's just you and your reaction (which would be understandable-ish if people knew why...) and then cops are called, she says "Well look at the hole in the wall! I had to duck to avoid being hit" and you are hauled off, you have to go to anger management, you have a domestic violence record, and you can't go back to the house.
> 
> Seriously, Thorburn. I do get it. I DO!! But I've seen addicts who are cut off from their supply. You've been around the block a time or too. I bet you've seen 'em too! So you tell me: do they do desperate, horrible things?
> 
> Final word of caution, and then I'm going to assume you heard the words of warning and chose to ignore them: it would be wise to put a lock on your bedroom door. When people are "roommates only" and rent out rooms in a house, each bedroom has a lock for privacy and security. In this current state, I would not put it beyond her to go into your room and literally cut the bed in half! So if you want to secure your things, I would suggest buying a new doorknob from Walmart and installing a simple door lock on your bedroom door. Then if she does break into it, you can reasonably report it to document it. If there's no lock and you were previously married, I don't think anyone would take that report really as there's no reasonable expectation of security from a spouse.


I do have lock on the door. I have the key. Can she get in? Yes with a pry bar. There are two doors to my room and I have the second one barricaded.

I doubt she will cut the bed in half now.

I do get the goading part and I do have a VAR. I will inform her aboout it.

I am not going to lose my cool, no matter what she does. I am prepared for the worst.

My pastor told me that since she has not talk to him that he is taking that as a sign of unrepentance.

I really did not think she would meet with him.

My internet went out at home and having a service tech come out tomorrow, so I sit here at Donkin Donuts checking things.


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## Thorburn

I am preparing my heart for the worst. I have literally gone through several scenarios even to the point of where she attacks me. Thought of the worse she could say. My stance is and will be, I am praying for you, I love you and I will not fight with you or argue and I will walk away.

I do not have revenge in my heart. I don't have spite. I don't want to go there and feel no desire or temptation to go there.

I got out of the house and am sitting at a second dunkin donuts, now having decaf.

I am in a good mood. Feeling peaceful. 

I even did my laundry today. Will get to put on clean sheets when I get home. Moved some clothing into "my" closet from my other closet. 

It is ironic that today I only have a moment of anxiety and that is when she took the dog and left. I wondered why did she take a shower, do her hair, only to leave with the dog? Then I thought, don't go there, let her go. So I sat down and watch some t.v. and enjoyed a movie.

Letting go is a process, but it is getting easier each day.

I am preparing as many of you suggested for the attacks. Thanks for the heads up warnings. I now have the attitude that it will happen and am preparing for those moments when they come, I expect plural attacks, and yes I know the unexpected will more than likely happen, and pray that I can think on my toes when the unexpected happens.


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## bandit.45

We're all praying for you Thorburn. You're not alone. Positive vibes being transmitted to you at this moment(((((((((((((((
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## obliviousLover

Thorburn - my heart is with you brother, just when im sulking in my own misery. Know that your cool head through your situation is giving this bewildered man some strength that he really needs. Im with everyone, lots of thoughts man.


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> We're all praying for you Thorburn. You're not alone. Positive vibes being transmitted to you at this moment(((((((((((((((
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





obliviousLover said:


> Thorburn - my heart is with you brother, just when im sulking in my own misery. Know that your cool head through your situation is giving this bewildered man some strength that he really needs. Im with everyone, lots of thoughts man.


Thanks. My life is a financial disaster about ready to crash and I feel above it somehow.

My take on it:
1. Got God back in my life. For those that don't believe I don't want to preach. Like my old friend a Rabbi would say when addressing a Christian crowd, "interpret what I say in your own way".
2. Feel vindicated that my WS's family is rooting for me. I am not gloating but they get it and now see her years of lying and manipulation.
3. You all get it. No one has said, "Mac, you are a troll, making this stuff up, or anything along those lines".
4. Being able to vent here. 

Going to bed. Man, am I at peace.


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## AngryandUsed

I am sure you will come out of this ordeal, sooner, healthier and a honourable man.
Prayers, Thor.


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## Thorburn

Today. She is walking around mad. Refinishing a table and now washing her car. She was yelling at the dog, something she never did. Slamming things.

I am heading out to church soon, as they have a late service. They always have a nice meal after the service.

At least I am not cracking up.


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## happyman64

Do not crack up!

This is the time you need to be the rock!

If any one is going to lose their mond it needs to be your wife.

So stand fast soldier.

And weather the storm.

I really think your family is going to need you sooner rather than later to hold it together.

HM64


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## bandit.45

Her world is crumbling. She's losing all her safety nets. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SaltInWound

bandit.45 said:


> Her world is crumbling. She's losing all her safety nets.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. That is why she is so angry.:thumbup:


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Her world is crumbling. She's losing all her safety nets.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is like my attorney said I was her meal ticket and it is time to cut it off. Her family has cut her off. I talked to my oldest BIL after church this evening and he said she is reaching back to her party days of over 33 years ago and this shows how poor she is, if that is all she got. 

It is ironic. Over the past year when she started working late last winter and then again after we moved here, we got in a little tiff both times about where she was. She said, I have new friends and I talk to people so I might be late from time to time. That may have been the only true thing she told me, her new friends were men. Where are they now?


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## Acabado

No new friends but neither old friends, male or female. She has no friends, not even toxic friends, what's really sad.


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## bandit.45

Acabado said:


> No new friends but neither old friends, male or female. She has no friends, not even toxic friends, what's really sad.


Exactly. Her "friends" are not friends. 

How could someone live 50 years on this earth and not know the difference?

Its very sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

Just got the phone with my oldest BIL. He said my youngest son wants the family to do an intervention. My oldest BIL said he is putting a plan together. He said my WS's family is all on the same page and they want me to hold off on proceeding with the D. I have no choice right now as i don't have the funds. He said, but you can't continue to live this way either and something has to happen soon, one way or the other. He says he plans on setting a date and having someone in the family contact her and see what she says. He said they will not take from her, i will only meet with so and so, he said they are all committed to doing it with the entire family to include my son. I spoke to my son and he said he is willing.

I said, I don't want to be part of it.


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## bandit.45

You can't be a part of it if you think about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> You can't be a part of it if you think about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's true. Mind you, how can her family, for that matter? Too little, too late!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Thorburn said:


> Just got the phone with my oldest BIL. He said my youngest son wants the family to do an intervention. My oldest BIL said he is putting a plan together. He said my WS's family is all on the same page and they want me to hold off on proceeding with the D. I have no choice right now as i don't have the funds. He said, but you can't continue to live this way either and something has to happen soon, one way or the other. He says he plans on setting a date and having someone in the family contact her and see what she says. He said they will not take from her, i will only meet with so and so, he said they are all committed to doing it with the entire family to include my son. I spoke to my son and he said he is willing.
> 
> I said, I don't want to be part of it.


To many cooks......keep out of the way and regardless what the outcome is focus on yourself and continue with the D , don't share your plans with her family or your sons . One thing is for certain : you cannot go through this again, she is not trustworthy or remorseful enough to consider a future with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

I agree with Eli-zor. What we have brewing is a bunch of relihgious do-gooders trying to fashion some kind of intervention to try to turn around their wayward sister who doesn't want to be turned around. Interventions work only when you have a trained specialist leading it and acting as a moderator. Else, two things will happen: everyone will sit in a circle hemming and hawing and eventually chicken out while the WW tells each one of them off individually, or it will blow up into a screaming match with the WW rallying the middle sister and maybe another sibling into taking her side. She'll deflect blame AND bring out all the dirty secrets and info she has one her siblings to throw back in their faces. 

This is going to end up a fiasco. 

Stay out of it Thorburn. Get cracking on saving up money for a divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kasler

Bad idea. I have nothing against religion, but I find many religious people seem to think a good talking to can make a difference. 


Marriage is over, stay the course you're on as you seem much more at peace. 

Don't get all embroiled into the bullsh!t it took you so long to get out of.


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> I agree with Eli-zor. What we have brewing is a bunch of relihgious do-gooders trying to fashion some kind of intervention to try to turn around their wayward sister who doesn't want to be turned around. Interventions work only when you have a trained specialist leading it and acting as a moderator. Else, two things will happen: everyone will sit in a circle hemming and hawing and eventually chicken out while the WW tells each one of them off individually, or it will blow up into a screaming match with the WW rallying the middle sister and maybe another sibling into taking her side. She'll deflect blame AND bring out all the dirty secrets and info she has one her siblings to throw back in their faces.
> 
> This is going to end up a fiasco.
> 
> Stay out of it Thorburn. Get cracking on saving up money for a divorce.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. Man I been looking up sex addiction in women and it is terrible. I have looked at programs and there are some excellent ones but man oh man, it is scary to see what a person with this problem faces, the work involved and the process. In addition they want the spouse involved and I don't have it in me, I just don't.

I told the family if they want to do an intervention get a pro to work with them. I gave them information on where to find some interventionists. I done two and they are not fun, and I worked with a pro, and it had to do with alcohol. I was there as the chaplain and the pro had a treatment plan. The guys went into treatment and I lost contact with them. But the same applies to sexual addictions. Without a pro an intervention will become a fiasco.


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## badbane

Thorburn said:


> I agree. Man I been looking up sex addiction in women and it is terrible. I have looked at programs and there are some excellent ones but man oh man, it is scary to see what a person with this problem faces, the work involved and the process. In addition they want the spouse involved and I don't have it in me, I just don't.
> 
> I told the family if they want to do an intervention get a pro to work with them. I gave them information on where to find some interventionists. I done two and they are not fun, and I worked with a pro, and it had to do with alcohol. I was there as the chaplain and the pro had a treatment plan. The guys went into treatment and I lost contact with them. But the same applies to sexual addictions. Without a pro an intervention will become a fiasco.


You can be involved if you want to. You just tell her the same things you have been. I love you, I pray for you, and that's it. You get a chance to tell her exactly what she has done to you. How it makes you feel and in a setting where she can't lash out. Tell her the truth. I think it might actually be therapeutic in some way. I bet that being heard by her would be helpful. Whatever happens afterwards is your choice not hers.


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## spudster

I have to disagree with you Badbane. I think Thorburn being there will jsut piss her off more and drive her further into her shell. 

This woman needs intensive behavioral therapy and most likely psychiatric help. I would not be surprised if there was some NPD or BPD at play here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## illwill

Thor, you need to detach a bit from her family. What they think of you does not matter. You know you are good man, and that is enough. Stop putting so much stock into the opinion of others. And, yes, if you keep delaying the divorce life and time will decide your fate. And both can be cruel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Numb-badger

To be honest, as soon as the 'Stern talking' starts, she'll curl up into helpless victim mode to guilt the others into taking it a little easier with her.
It'll work too as they'll believe that she has, in some form, 'seen the error of her ways'.
There'll be crocodile tears, hankerchiefs, sniffling and hugs whilst she tries to appease the crowd to end the session as quickly as possible for her benefit.

Take care of you, yourself and you. You're a good bloke and an inspiration to many of us.


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## happyman64

You should not be there Thorburn.

But you can certainly the crucifix's, candles, holy water and bible.

Everything that is required for an Exorcism.

Stay tough soldier.


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## Affaircare

I think those of us who have "followed along" here would agree that Mrs. Thorburn needs some fairly intensive therapy of some sort. However, here's the thing: you can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink. She needs it. You see it; I see it; Thor sees it; her family sees it. But until SHE SEES IT, there isn't going to be too much progress.

Now I get the idea of having an intervention and the hope is to get her into a treatment--where she'd be in an environment where she COULD see it. I get that. But we can sit here and pontificate all day about what she needs, etc. ---but until she is onboard and actively participating in her own recovery...until she WANTS it...it's not going to happen.


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## Thorburn

I love her, I really do. But the marriage is over. She needs help and this crap is out of my course of study and experience. I read enough to know that she has serious issues related to sexual addiction. I know the treatment that is available. One facility is about 5 miles away started by Patrick Carnes, Ph.D., a leader is sex addictions and there are other good ones throughout the country. But I also know enough that even if my WS admits to it and agrees to treatment it will be a long road. If she was an alcoholic I would be there in a minute to support her. I don't want to sound callous but whether it is sex addiction, mental illness, or whatever the cause (just plain selfishness) I don't have it in me to help her. It could very well be caused by her auto accident in the mid 90's as she had brain trauma. 

I can forgive her, but I don't want her back in my life. I feel sorry for what she has become.

In that end i will support her family and my son with whatever help they want from me. If they want me to delay the D, so be it. I can't afford it now anyway.

If it gets her out of the house I am really in support of it or if it helps me get a better settlement in D.

I don't want her back. I do want her to get help but I can't be by her side.


----------



## CantSitStill

Thorburn said:


> I love her, I really do. But the marriage is over. She needs help and this crap is out of my course of study and experience. I read enough to know that she has serious issues related to sexual addiction. I know the treatment that is available. One facility is about 5 miles away started by Patrick Carnes, Ph.D., a leader is sex addictions and there are other good ones throughout the country. But I also know enough that even if my WS admits to it and agrees to treatment it will be a long road. If she was an alcoholic I would be there in a minute to support her. I don't want to sound callous but whether it is sex addiction, mental illness, or whatever the cause (just plain selfishness) I don't have it in me to help her. It could very well be caused by her auto accident in the mid 90's as she had brain trauma.
> 
> I can forgive her, but I don't want her back in my life. I feel sorry for what she has become.
> 
> In that end i will support her family and my son with whatever help they want from me. If they want me to delay the D, so be it. I can't afford it now anyway.
> 
> If it gets her out of the house I am really in support of it or if it helps me get a better settlement in D.
> 
> I don't want her back. I do want her to get help but I can't be by her side.


very good, you are a smart man. take care of yourself, don't forget to eat, remember to take care of yourself
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

I will be back in about an hour. Gotta run. You all got me thinking. 

Keep this is mind. Her family is very important to me and my children. Right now they are supporting me in many ways. I have known them for over 30 years. Their parents loved me and I loved them. They were great in-laws. I went to grad school with one BIL, were instrumental in getting two of my BIL's introduced to their wives. To me they are family. They all over the course of years lived with me for months at a time. Two of them have 7 kids and they lived with us for months, at different times. They know me well and that is what always led them to say, hey somthing is not right here with what our sister is saying. Mac is not that way. Yea, it took some of them some time to figure it out but they did figure it out. 

maybe I am wrong here but I don't think I am wrong in leaning on them during this time. The two older BILs have not let me down, ever. 

I don't want this to sound harsh, I think it may come across that way. My tone is not harsh or defensive. I am trying to merely state what I have experienced with them over the years. Yes the middle sister has slammed me from time to time, but she is one out of 5.


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## illwill

Thor, i understand the bond. I really do. I just never hear you talk about your own family, so its a little odd. My point is a man can take opinions but do not allow others, like your father in law, who you said convinced you to stay when she cheated before, to dictate your life choices. That includes guys like me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spudster

The middle kid is always the brat. 

I don't think anyone is telling you to disown your in-laws...just distance yourself from the situation. 

It seems like that is what you are doing. You seem to have a healthy outlook.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Affaircare said:


> I think those of us who have "followed along" here would agree that Mrs. Thorburn needs some fairly intensive therapy of some sort. However, here's the thing: *you can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink.* She needs it. You see it; I see it; Thor sees it; her family sees it. But until SHE SEES IT, there isn't going to be too much progress.
> 
> Now I get the idea of having an intervention and the hope is to get her into a treatment--where she'd be in an environment where she COULD see it. I get that. But we can sit here and pontificate all day about what she needs, etc. ---but until she is onboard and actively participating in her own recovery...until she WANTS it...it's not going to happen.


Sure you can if you have a garden hose and bungee cords.


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## Thorburn

illwill said:


> Thor, i understand the bond. I really do. I just never hear you talk about your own family, so its a little odd. My point is a man can take opinions but do not allow others, like your father in law, who you said convinced you to stay when she cheated before, to dictate your life choices. That includes guys like me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My family. My dad was mean. I made up with him around 1992. Just forgave him. After I forgave my dad, my WS and I (and when the kids were young) would vacation with my parents every year (we went to Williamsburg VA) from 1992 till 2007. In 2008 to 2009 I was with the Army training or in Iraq. When I got back from Iraq, late in 2009, my dad's health was failing and he could not travel. He died last year. My mother is very sweet and is still alive but in failing health and I just don't want her involved in this mess. She knows most of it. I talk to my oldest sister but she lives in New England. My oldest brother died from agent orange in 1995 from his time in Vietnam. I did his funeral. I have done about a hundred or more since, but his was the first I ever did and it was the largest funeral I ever did. Standing room only with speakers on the outside of the building as we had a crowd outside as well and it was a fairly large building. About 60 to 70 Vietnam Vets that he served with attended his funeral and they were from all parts of the country. My youngest sister died when I was in Iraq. When the cancer went to her brain she blamed me for her being committed to a hospital. I had nothing to do with it and I visited her everyday. After her release she blamed me. She made up with me right before I left for Iraq and she died two months later, saying the hospital tried to break us up. My youngest brother and I had a falling out when I made up with my dad, he could never understand how I could forgive him. My next older brother is five years older then me and is bi-polar. A sweet guy but he is out there in his own world. My oldest living brother is about 9 years older then me. He converted to Judaism and is very successful. You name the person he knows them. He has been in Celine Dion's home in Florida. He is charming, witty and knows everything. He is a great guy but we are not close. He wanted to pis* on my dad's grave. During my time in Iraq my family was in contact with me quite a bit. When I got home it went back to infrequent phone calls and a few visits. My oldest living brother did give my WS and I a week at his condo in the Outer Banks after I came home from Iraq.

Due to my father our family was not close. Everyone wanted to get away from that hel*. My dad changed and actually became a nice guy. I enjoyed the time we spent together and got to hear some really kind words from him days before he died. My WS and I went to visit with him in the hospital and it was a very special moment, with just the three of us. 

I became closer to my in-laws then my own family. There was a time from 1984 to about 1990 or so where I did not talk to my parents. Long story, but it had to do with my first son's birth and them ignoring us when we came to visit. It was bad. I got to my parents home with my new son and my WS and I had driven hours to get there (they knew we were coming to spend a week with them). I pulled into the driveway and my dad got into his car and drove away, saying he might see us later. My mother said he was going to see someone in prison that he did not know but a friend wanted him to visit this guy. I just had a flashback to my childhood and said, forget it and left. My mother did not get to see her grandsons for years. 

So during this time we just hung out with my WS's family and got close.

I forgave my dad around 1992 and we had a great time till his death. But most of my time was spent with my WS's family as they lived near us. In fact at one time, most of my WS's family moved to our town just to be around us, her parents first, then her two sisters and then her one brother. They followed us.

Kind a long short version of my family.


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## CantSitStill

Her family has been a part of your life for most of your life and they don't wanna lose you as you hate to lose them. It's understandable and oyoyoy what a situation to be in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator

I understand completely, Thorburn! 

My STBXW's family(Mom, Brother, Sister, Cousins) are all "salt of the earth!" I absolutely love those people to death~ and if there is to be a casualty in my divorce, it will be missing their love and fellowship.

They can't really help what a cheater and low-life moral agent that my STBXW is~ that isn't their fault.

The only thing that they know is my noted absence from family affairs for almost two years now, all without any real, viable explanation from her, I'm sure! That's why I'll be more than pleased to provide these principals in her family with the documented evidence showing them about STBXW's adulterous actions which was ultimately the primary reason for the split-up/dissolution.

Per my legal counsels advice, I can't really tell them anything until the divorce reaches finalization! 

And while this truth may come to hurt them immeasurably, there's also a marked chance that perhaps it will not, since "blood has been known to be thicker than water,"; but contingent upon whatever undocumented story that they have been spoon-fed by her, at least they will come to know "the rest of the story!"

Now whether or not they'll actually care is strictly up to them!


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## illwill

Thor, I get it. Just remember her family is HER FAMILY. Consider the source of their support and advice. The great thing about this site is we do not have ulterior motives. They do. And anybody who you need to believe you about your wife, will believe you because you are a a man of honor.

By the way, your brother who had the big funeral, must have been awesome.


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## Thorburn

arbitrator said:


> I understand completely, Thorburn!
> 
> My STBXW's family(Mom, Brother, Sister, Cousins) are all "salt of the earth!" I absolutely love those people to death~ and if there is to be a casualty in my divorce, it will be missing their love and fellowship.
> 
> They can't really help what a cheater and low-life moral agent that my STBXW is~ that isn't their fault.
> 
> The only thing that they know is my noted absence from family affairs for almost two years now, all without any real, viable explanation from her, I'm sure! That's why I'll be more than pleased to provide these principals in her family with the documented evidence showing them about STBXW's adulterous actions which was ultimately the primary reason for the split-up/dissolution.
> 
> Per my legal counsels advice, I can't really tell them anything until the divorce reaches finalization!
> 
> And while this truth may come to hurt them immeasurably, there's also a marked chance that perhaps it will not, since "blood has been known to be thicker than water,"; but contingent upon whatever undocumented story that they have been spoon-fed by her, at least they will come to know "the rest of the story!"
> 
> Now whether or not they'll actually care is strictly up to them!


It is ironic that you mentioned cousins. My WS's uncle was the first non family member at Levi Strauss to become their CEO. He is still living in Hilton Head, a very wealthy man, but he is very tight with his money. Anyway, my oldest BIL has been in contact with his cousins and warned them to stay clear of my WS as she is toxic and they are heeding his advice. My WS was not close to any of her cousins. Funny, I met her cousins who are German (my MIL was from Germany) when I was in Germany for training with the Army. My WS has never met her German cousins. I stayed with them. Tried to get my WS to visit Germany many times but she was not interested. Her uncle Heinz and Wolfgang are still living and Uncle Heinz is the sweetest man you would ever want to meet. He has been to America several times.


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## spudster

I wonder what was so engrossing in her life here in the States that would make her not want to travel to Germany to be with her husband, meet her cousins, see the sites....?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator

Thorburn said:


> It is ironic that you mentioned cousins. My WS's uncle was the first non family member at Levi Strauss to become their CEO. He is still living in Hilton Head, a very wealthy man, but he is very tight with his money. Anyway, my oldest BIL has been in contact with his cousins and warned them to stay clear of my WS as she is toxic and they are heeding his advice. My WS was not close to any of her cousins. Funny, I met her cousins who are German (my MIL was from Germany) when I was in Germany for training with the Army. My WS has never met her German cousins. I stayed with them. Tried to get my WS to visit Germany many times but she was not interested. Her uncle Heinz and Wolfgang are still living and Uncle Heinz is the sweetest man you would ever want to meet. He has been to America several times.



Understandable, Thor! My STBXW's family are all college educated, including her, holding degrees in various disciplines from major Texas universities. One cousin, in fact, holds a Ph.d in Mechanical Engineering and is a principal in an international oil firm based in South Texas. I love this guy and his family greatly.

STBXW and her deceased first husband, who was also highly degreed iin engineering(and an alcoholic) had three kids who they did nothing with in regards to education. Only one of the three finished high school, largely just to get him out of the local secondary education system. The other two dropped out as HS underclassmen, in favor of joining their older sibling in embracing the drug, tattoo, and goth culture. All three marginally or do not work as they largely live off of Mama's wealth. Truth be known, all that they are doing is laying around waiting for both of their wealthy grandparents to kick off, as well as STBXW, so that they can claim rather handsome inheritances from all three entities. 

I came to greatly resent them as being nothing more than anti-role models for my sons, who are both college honor students. Her straight-laced Ph.d cousin doesn't like them either. I remember at our wedding reception that he shook my hand and asked me if I really knew what it was that I was getting myself into. I came to find out that he really resented them, too.

Over dinner at a restaurant one evening, when he came to town, after having seen all of the tattoos and piercings on STBXW's kids, he boldly asked her if she was investing heavily into tattoo stocks or was in the process of opening up a local tattoo parlor. I absolutely wanted to bust out laughing, but knew much better.

I love this guy and his family and I do not want to lose contact with them, as we share so many of the same values for ourselves as well as our families! It's people like him that truly deserve to know the truth of what actually happened between STBXW and myself.

And I'll greatly wager that he will not, in the least, be surprised!


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## spudster

Looking back I should have heeded the warnings my ex-wife's extended family were covertly giving me. They wouldn't come right out and say anything bad about her...but when people were shaking my hand several were giving me strange looks, or had dubious smiles on their faces. I also got several "you sure you know what you're getting yourself into" comments.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## illwill

Wow.


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## thatgirll007

Thorburn - my exH's family and I are still very close, almost three years post divorce. I don't bash him and they don't, either, but they do shake their heads from time to time and say, "He's really an idiot for losing you."

I sometimes feel odd because they have a tendency to call me and tell me family news before they tell him. For example, when his mother's house caught on fire last week, she called me first and told me. I asked her if she had spoken to him and she said, "Oh, I'm going to call him right after we talk."

I'm sure the 16 years I've known and loved them has nothing on 30, you've got! A few rules I follow, though:

1.) No bashing of my ex to them - but I am honest.
2.) I avoid talking about my love life with them - but I am honest when questioned.
3.) I only attend essential family events (weddings & funerals), no baby showers, birthdays, housewarmings, holidays, etc.


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## Thorburn

thatgirll007 said:


> Thorburn - my exH's family and I are still very close, almost three years post divorce. I don't bash him and they don't, either, but they do shake their heads from time to time and say, "He's really an idiot for losing you."
> 
> I sometimes feel odd because they have a tendency to call me and tell me family news before they tell him. For example, when his mother's house caught on fire last week, she called me first and told me. I asked her if she had spoken to him and she said, "Oh, I'm going to call him right after we talk."
> 
> I'm sure the 16 years I've known and loved them has nothing on 30, you've got! A few rules I follow, though:
> 
> 1.) No bashing of my ex to them - but I am honest.
> 2.) I avoid talking about my love life with them - but I am honest when questioned.
> 3.) I only attend essential family events (weddings & funerals), no baby showers, birthdays, housewarmings, holidays, etc.


My oldest BIL's daughter is getting married in May out in Fargo, N.D. Most of my WS's family is going. They want me to come. I can't afford it but wish I could. My WS has pictures of my niece and her when we went to Gettysburg with them years ago. They got along fairly well. Now I talk to her on FB (my niece) and comment on her photos she takes and she writes back. 

Yea I know it will be different. Right now she is cut off from them by her own actions. She refuses to reach out to them and the ones she did reach out, she was fine with them as long as they bought into her story that Mac is mean, and did not question her or preach to her like her younger brother and middle sister started to do.


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## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> Her uncle Heinz and Wolfgang are still living and Uncle Heinz is the sweetest man you would ever want to meet. He has been to America several times.


I bet you got lots of hair-raising stories about heavy action on the Eastern Front. Those stories were always the best part of visiting with older Germans. The old-school attitude toward war of those old guys is the polar opposite of what we are taught, especially after a few.


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## Machiavelli

spudster said:


> I wonder what was so engrossing in her life here in the States that would make her not want to travel to Germany to be with her husband, meet her cousins, see the sites....?


I couldn't begin to guess.


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## Thorburn

Machiavelli said:


> I bet you got lots of hair-raising stories about heavy action on the Eastern Front. Those stories were always the best part of visiting with older Germans. The old-school attitude toward war of those old guys is the polar opposite of what we are taught, especially after a few.


My mother in law (she was a teenager) her father, mother, grandparents all survived the fire bombing of Dresden. It is where she grew up and lived. Their tale is written in a book. we have the German manuscript. It was hair raising when you think of all the people that were killed when they were there.


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## Thorburn

Heavy case load today. Three individual sessions and three groups. Two were inpatient at a hospital. I had to deal with a paranoid schizophrenic among other disorders. What I really like about my job is how the folks open up to me and share some horrible stuff. It was challenging but enjoyable. Came back to the office to do the notes on the patients and chill.


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## CantSitStill

Thorburn said:


> Heavy case load today. Three individual sessions and three groups. Two were inpatient at a hospital. I had to deal with a paranoid schizophrenic among other disorders. What I really like about my job is how the folks open up to me and share some horrible stuff. It was challenging but enjoyable. Came back to the office to do the notes on the patients and chill.


It is nice to hear a counselor likes their job..so cool to have people that really care help you 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

CantSitStill said:


> It is nice to hear a counselor likes their job..so cool to have people that really care help you
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I had Focus on the Family call me today. The counselor got it right away and explained how my WS responded to being exposed. Fog, denial, anger etc. She said my WS is scared at the fact of losing me and can't face herself and her problem. Therefor is blaming me, is angry etc. She said she is more than likely in redrawal from having sex (if she stopped) due to the fact that it has been exposed and she will not get the cheap thrill of sneaking around. They gave me a name of a psyciatrist who deals with this stuff who is local. I called them and they called me back. They have 24/7 support. The guy I talked to got it right away, saying he went through something similar 13 years ago. He also said the same thing, anger at exposure, unrepentant, hard heart, blaming me, mad at having it exposed and cut off. Typical brain chemistry at work in addiction.

he gave me a name of a person who is local and their organization works with this person and who does interventions to pass onto the family. He said that typically in these situations that is the best course of action to have a pro work with the family and that an intervention is the best way to go.

He said, D her but wait for the intervention and he recommended that I take part in it. He said everyone will follow a script, present their portion and then the interventionist will take over. He said the family will have to have a plan for her to go into treatment if she agrees to go. He said in most cases people do go for treatment but he said these things can go many different ways.

I will call the interventionist tomorrow to get their fee (most range from $1,500.00 to $5,000.00) and details as to how they do this.

My plan is to work with the family.

D is in my future and I am hoping at the least that her heart will be softened.

Just got off the phone with my middle BIL he said a lot but in short he said his sister is insane and is praying that God throws a tree in front of her car. Coming from a guy who's wife's grandfather was one of the founders of the Assembly of God denomination I understand his perspective and had to laugh. I hope the tree is not too big where it totals the car as I just changed the insurance on that car where the damage to the car is not covered.


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## KanDo

Thornburn,

I know things are quite tough right now and that your finances are stretched beyond reason; but, I would advise you to scrape whatever you can get together to at least file the divorce petition and have her served. In most states there is a mandatory period of time before a divorce can be finalized measured from when the petition is filed. Also, in some states, that service on your wife will separate your joint estate. You won't be liable for anything she spends after the service and she can't drag you down further in a fit of spite.

Get back with your lawyer and see if you can't get him to file and have her served for a small sum. You really need to get moving on. 

Regarding sex addiction. There is a real difference between simple self centeredness and addiction. The professional behavioral health community cannot even agree on whether "sex addiction" is even a true disorder (It was reject for inclusion in the DSM-5) I think any discussion of sex addiction in reference to your wife serves merely to excuse selfish behavior.

just my humble opinion.......


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## bandit.45

Yeah I agree with KanDo. Get that D paperwork filed. Getting served would be the perfect ice breaker to soften her up before the intervention.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

KanDo said:


> Thornburn,
> 
> I know things are quite tough right now and that your finances are stretched beyond reason; but, I would advise you to scrape whatever you can get together to at least file the divorce petition and have her served. In most states there is a mandatory period of time before a divorce can be finalized measured from when the petition is filed. Also, in some states, that service on your wife will separate your joint estate. You won't be liable for anything she spends after the service and she can't drag you down further in a fit of spite.
> 
> Get back with your lawyer and see if you can't get him to file and have her served for a small sum. You really need to get moving on.
> 
> Regarding sex addiction. There is a real difference between simple self centeredness and addiction. The professional behavioral health community cannot even agree on whether "sex addiction" is even a true disorder (It was reject for inclusion in the DSM-5) I think any discussion of sex addiction in reference to your wife serves merely to excuse selfish behavior.
> 
> just my humble opinion.......


More than your humble opinion. You are stating a fact. It was rejected. The thing about it is this there are certain behaviors that are fairly consistent whatever it is called. I am preaching to the choir but read many posts and it is what is called cheater script, etc. The fact is that there is brain chemistry involved like in most addictions.

for me it is the behavior that matters not whether it is a disease or not or an addiction. 

Everyone I have talked to professionally has asked me the same thing. One regular poster (whom I admire greatly) PM'd me last year and asked the same thing. Was your WS molested or abused as a child or early teen. She never said she was. But that is another theme I have heard over and over again from professionals.

I agree that it is selfishness.


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## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> My mother in law (she was a teenager) her father, mother, grandparents all survived the fire bombing of Dresden. It is where she grew up and lived. Their tale is written in a book. we have the German manuscript. It was hair raising when you think of all the people that were killed when they were there.


Once you start sending waves of bombers dropping incendiaries on civilian population centers, you know you're really having total war. 25,000 dead in that one night.


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## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> Everyone I have talked to professionally has asked me the same thing. One regular poster (whom I admire greatly) PM'd me last year and asked the same thing. *Was your WS molested or abused as a child or early teen.* She never said she was. But that is another theme I have heard over and over again from professionals.


Always it comes up, constantly. And it's the first thing you wonder about with these hypersexual females. Childhood abuse would seem to make more sense as a cause than early adolescence. Otherwise, the women of the pre-1500 AD world would have all be hypersexual since marriage was typically at puberty for girls. My own MIL was married at 14 and a mother at 15. But then, she did have at least one affair. And the last kid looks nothing like the first three.


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## Thorburn

Machiavelli said:


> Once you start sending waves of bombers dropping incendiaries on civilian population centers, you know you're really having total war. 25,000 dead in that one night.


It was quite a story. My WS's grandfather was told by neighbors to follow them and he did not. He felt that God was telling him where to go and he and his family took refuge in a basement. Then there was a loud explosion and the building that their neighbors took refuge in was destroyed and everyone was killed. He was then told to follow the crowd. He took his family and went another way to leave the city and was warned that he was putting his family in danger. As they were leaving they watched in horror as the crowd that they were suppose to follow were all killed. As they fled to the West the Russians raped my MIL as a young teen and raped and killed her aunt.


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## bandit.45

Machiavelli said:


> Always it comes up, constantly. And it's the first thing you wonder about with these hypersexual females. Childhood abuse would seem to make more sense as a cause than early adolescence. Otherwise, the women of the pre-1500 AD world would have all be hypersexual since marriage was typically at puberty for girls. My own MIL was married at 14 and a mother at 15. But then, she did have at least one affair. And the last kid looks nothing like the first three.


Thorburn did your FIL ask you to take your WW back after the first affair in '99?

And didn't he ask you to protect and take care of his daughter before he died?

That's kind of a strange thing to ask a SIL to do. I wonder if he was hiding some guilt?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Thorburn did your FIL ask you to take your WW back after the first affair in '99?
> 
> And didn't he ask you to protect and take care of his daughter before he died?
> 
> That's kind of a strange thing to ask a SIL to do. I wonder if he was hiding some guilt?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My FIL was a very special man. When he was dying and confused my WS's entire family was in his room. I came after work and walked into the room. My FIL sat up and annouced to everyone, "Hey, Mac is here" and he had a great big smile on his face. He pulled me aside and said, "I don't like those two" as he pointed to my two SIL's. They were the ones that were doing most of his care and my oldest SIL and him did not get along well (long story). My two older BIL's said, that their dad likes me more than them and they were laughing about it and took it is stride. My WS told me I was her rock during this time and I worked with the undertaker after he died as the family could not bear to see him baged up and taken out of the house. I helped take him to the hearse and made arraignments for him to have a military funeral, with two buglers, a honor guard, etc. 


My FIL had shared some things with me over the years that they were very concerned about my WS when she was aroun 17 to 20. She wanted to live an adventerous life, see the world and travel and he said she had a wild streak in her. When I met her in college she was not wild at all. 

I don't think he had guilt I think he knew his daughter well.

He did ask me to promise to take care of her in 1999. I do believe that that event shook him up concerning her. He was very angry with her on the phone and told her to get home and he cursed her out and smashed the phone. My middle BIL was at my FIL's house and witnessed this. This was the only time my FIL yelled or cursed at my WS in her entire life.

My MIL in 2007 was dying and she called all her children into her hospital room one by one and shared things with them. I was the only in-law she called in and in her German way gave me a stern warning to stay close to God, love and care for her daughter. she told me she loved me and that I was a good husband to her daughter. She shared some other things with me from the Bible about staying close to God and that I need to get back to going to church. I am laughing now as I think about the look she had on her face. Very stern and serious but also very loving. She said, I want to see all my children in heaven and you are one of my children so stay close to God. There was no talk about my WS other then to love and care for her. It is ironic, my MIL rallied and she went home. When I came home from Iraq in 2009 we had to put her in a nursing home and her health declined rapidly due to neglect at the nursing home (we all did not see it and we were there on a regular basis). My oldest SIL is an RN and my MIL developed a serious bed sore that the staff kept covered up and my SIL never checked it ( and has guilt to this day over it). It went to stage four, got into the bone and she was sent to the hospital for a blood infection. The hospital staff called the state police, which led to the Feds and the state removing all the patients and permantly closing the nursing home down. She declined rapidly and died four months later. My MIL was a trooper. She had parkinson's could not move at all and was the sweetest person to the staff and her family. She never complained, never. I remember my WS was tormented by her mother's condition and asked her one time, "Mom, how can you stand this?" My MIL replied, "I am in God's hands and have peace and I am OK, I have lots of good memories and I think about God and those good memories". I remember last year being with my dad in the hospital days before he died. My WS and I went to be with him alone. He said basically the same thing. i was crying and he said, Mac, it is OK, everything is OK. He said to my WS, to think that Mac went to Iraq a few years ago, he said that is amazing, he made it back safe and I am proud of what he did. then he looked at me again and said, Mac, everything is going to be OK, I am in God's hands. He died very peacefully.


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## tdwal

Thorburn said:


> My FIL was a very special man. When he was dying and confused my WS's entire family was in his room. I came after work and walked into the room. My FIL sat up and annouced to everyone, "Hey, Mac is here" and he had a great big smile on his face. He pulled me aside and said, "I don't like those two" as he pointed to my two SIL's. They were the ones that were doing most of his care and my oldest SIL and him did not get along well (long story). My two older BIL's said, that their dad likes me more than them and they were laughing about it and took it is stride. My WS told me I was her rock during this time and I worked with the undertaker after he died as the family could not bear to see him baged up and taken out of the house. I helped take him to the hearse and made arraignments for him to have a military funeral, with two buglers, a honor guard, etc.
> 
> 
> My FIL had shared some things with me over the years that they were very concerned about my WS when she was aroun 17 to 20. She wanted to live an adventerous life, see the world and travel and he said she had a wild streak in her. When I met her in college she was not wild at all.
> 
> I don't think he had guilt I think he knew his daughter well.
> 
> He did ask me to promise to take care of her in 1999. I do believe that that event shook him up concerning her. He was very angry with her on the phone and told her to get home and he cursed her out and smashed the phone. My middle BIL was at my FIL's house and witnessed this. This was the only time my FIL yelled or cursed at my WS in her entire life.
> 
> My MIL in 2007 was dying and she called all her children into her hospital room one by one and shared things with them. I was the only in-law she called in and in her German way gave me a stern warning to stay close to God, love and care for her daughter. she told me she loved me and that I was a good husband to her daughter. She shared some other things with me from the Bible about staying close to God and that I need to get back to going to church. I am laughing now as I think about the look she had on her face. Very stern and serious but also very loving. She said, I want to see all my children in heaven and you are one of my children so stay close to God. There was no talk about my WS other then to love and care for her. It is ironic, my MIL rallied and she went home. When I came home from Iraq in 2009 we had to put her in a nursing home and her health declined rapidly due to neglect at the nursing home (we all did not see it and we were there on a regular basis). My oldest SIL is an RN and my MIL developed a serious bed sore that the staff kept covered up and my SIL never checked it ( and has guilt to this day over it). It went to stage four, got into the bone and she was sent to the hospital for a blood infection. The hospital staff called the state police, which led to the Feds and the state removing all the patients and permantly closing the nursing home down. She declined rapidly and died four months later. My MIL was a trooper. She had parkinson's could not move at all and was the sweetest person to the staff and her family. She never complained, never. I remember my WS was tormented by her mother's condition and asked her one time, "Mom, how can you stand this?" My MIL replied, "I am in God's hands and have peace and I am OK, I have lots of good memories and I think about God and those good memories". I remember last year being with my dad in the hospital days before he died. My WS and I went to be with him alone. He said basically the same thing. i was crying and he said, Mac, it is OK, everything is OK. He said to my WS, to think that Mac went to Iraq a few years ago, he said that is amazing, he made it back safe and I am proud of what he did. then he looked at me again and said, Mac, everything is going to be OK, I am in God's hands. He died very peacefully.


Wow, that just demonstrates how good a servant of God you are. Your a good man Thor.


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## Thorburn

What a day. My mind was messed up. Started yesterday morning as I was in a funk. Then my supervisor got mad at me over something stupid and I seriously thought of packing up my stuff and quitting. I thought, why in the world do I want to put up with chicken crap here at work when my WS will be getting half of my pay anyway. Then it carried over today. I just had so much catching up to do. I stayed late last night, worked late the night before and thought I am not getting enough sleep and that, is why I am overly edgy. So today we had staff meeting, supervision and then clinical staff where we go over cases peer to peer. All interruptions when I was trying to catch up. I even came in early.

Well, I stayed focused and got everything done with one exception and can wait till Monday. During supervision my boss saw how behind I was, he stands behind me as I go through all the reports on the computer. It shows everything. Cases that need closed, treatment plans that are due, incomplete notes, productivity, etc. You can't hide anything. He said, how are you going to get all that done and he sat down. I started laughing. I said it looks horrible, but keep in mind I had three groups on Wednesday, plus all the individual sessions plus I had a full load yesterday. I said, you watch, I will have it all done today. He said I know, I just don't want you burning out, that is why the other guy quit. I said, this happens every two weeks and it is no sweat. Just know it will get done. I said I have being doing this every other Wednesday thing for about four months and I always catch up. He goes dang, you are right. I said if I get to stressed I will let you know. He said I know you are under alot right now and he said I just want you to stay focused here. I said, I have not been? He said no, you are doing great but I don't want you to leave here because of problems at home, stay focused.

Poor guy, he wants to retire and have me replace him but I can't until I get my license and my mind is fried. I gotta get moving on it yet I feel stuck. So next week I have to set up an appointment to get the ball rolling. It will not be easy as I really have to study and it is not easy stuff. Bell curves, statistics, Freud, Jung, etc. All psychological babble that we are required to know yet we don't use any of it in practice. Seriously, I have never knew a Freudian psychiatrist as his stuff is so outdated. We don't use statistics or bell curves (researchers do so they need it). Anyway, I have to know all this crap to get my license and I can complain all I want but it want do a bit of good. So my plan is to get some help and I am eligible for it as a disable Vet, so I just need to get my butt in gear, go through the application process and I will actually get paid to study as I will get a stipend. Cool.


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## CantSitStill

breathe, hang in there and don't let yourself get overwhelmed
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CleanJerkSnatch

That is tough. You're still alive thorburn and with plenty of energy. Keep persevering. 

Memento mori


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## Thorburn

Well, I was heading home. Friday's traffic here is a nightmare. On my way home a strange number appears on my cell phone and I answer it. It is my special needs son. Dad, why are you messing with the money? You are creating a mess. this is all your fault, etc. It is all I needed. I said, I love you and I am praying for you and your mother. I said it twice and he said pray all you want and hung up on me. I sent a quick text to my BILs and pastor.

Got home and just felt the presence of evil, weird. My WS started in on me, we need groceries, the list is on the table. I said, I love you and I am praying for you, repent and turn to Christ. She said, "Maybe I did", walked by me angry and has been in her room since. I went into my bedroom and there was a sweet note from my special needs son. I asked him if he wanted to go out for coffee and we did. We sat down and he started cursing at me, saying this is all my fault, etc. I wanted to lash out. I said, first, I love you and I pulled out the note he wrote and I said I really think this is special. It shows you have a kind heart. He then said, dad, don't say anything and he started to talk about some of the things his mother did. He said he knew who the one guy was from 1999. He then blasted me again, calmed down and started saying about how wrong his mother is and then he started to share his struggles. I did not say anything negative about my WS. I then asked him if he and his mother have been talking to her brothers etc. I said, I am sure you are all in contact with them. He said, I don't think so, we talked to one sister and one brother but that is it. I said, oh, I heard your mother is talking to her whole family (I know better) and he said, maybe she is. He then told me what number he was calling from. My WS hooked up our home phone and he said, dad don't cancel it or let mom know we have the phone. He said I need it to talk to my friends. I said I won't and I won't say a word that I know you guys have a phone. 

We had a great time. He went from cursing me out to sharing his feelings and struggles. And I got some good intel. sweet.

And it is sad to see her using him to goad me. But I stayed above it. Man, there is so much I would like to say to her and to my son, but it would not do a thing and just give them ammunition. So I keep my words brief.


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## karole

Praying for you Thor


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## tdwal

karole said:


> Praying for you Thor


Me too


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## CleanJerkSnatch

Thorburn said:


> Well, I was heading home. Friday's traffic here is a nightmare. On my way home a strange number appears on my cell phone and I answer it. It is my special needs son. Dad, why are you messing with the money? You are creating a mess. this is all your fault, etc. It is all I needed. I said, I love you and I am praying for you and your mother. I said it twice and he said pray all you want and hung up on me. I sent a quick text to my BILs and pastor.
> 
> Got home and just felt the presence of evil, weird. My WS started in on me, we need groceries, the list is on the table. I said, I love you and I am praying for you, repent and turn to Christ. She said, "Maybe I did", walked by me angry and has been in her room since. I went into my bedroom and there was a sweet note from my special needs son. I asked him if he wanted to go out for coffee and we did. We sat down and he started cursing at me, saying this is all my fault, etc. I wanted to lash out. I said, first, I love you and I pulled out the note he wrote and I said I really think this is special. It shows you have a kind heart. He then said, dad, don't say anything and he started to talk about some of the things his mother did. He said he knew who the one guy was from 1999. He then blasted me again, calmed down and started saying about how wrong his mother is and then he started to share his struggles. I did not say anything negative about my WS. I then asked him if he and his mother have been talking to her brothers etc. I said, I am sure you are all in contact with them. He said, I don't think so, we talked to one sister and one brother but that is it. I said, oh, I heard your mother is talking to her whole family (I know better) and he said, maybe she is. He then told me what number he was calling from. My WS hooked up our home phone and he said, dad don't cancel it or let mom know we have the phone. He said I need it to talk to my friends. I said I won't and I won't say a word that I know you guys have a phone.
> 
> We had a great time. He went from cursing me out to sharing his feelings and struggles. And I got some good intel. sweet.
> 
> And it is sad to see her using him to goad me. But I stayed above it. Man, there is so much I would like to say to her and to my son, but it would not do a thing and just give them ammunition. So I keep my words brief.



You seem really great in assisting other people to move and cope with their frustrations, even if it is against you.

That is something that requires so much practice and too many have to little patience to even bother paying attention to other people and how WE react to their faulty times.


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## happyman64

I am saying a prayer for you right now that your strength continues and your patience through this crisis does not wear thin.


*By the way you are an awesome Dad Thorburn!
*


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## phillybeffandswiss

Good job, you know this isn't your son's fault. A true parent would MINIMIZE their child's involvement whether they are an adult or a child.


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## the guy

Your one bad @ss dude, if the Lord had more warriors like you the world would be a better place!


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## Thorburn

Had an appointment at the bank early this morning to sign some papers. Left the house early, came back in the afternoon. My WS was outside with the dog, she gave me one dirty look and went up to her room. I had to bring the dog in. I watched a movie and could not stand being in the house. My son is going to a heavy metal concert tonight and I thought let her deal with it, it will go to about midnight. So I hung out at stores, sold a set of gold ear rings. Did my research and got my price. not much but got what I thought I would. I went to four places and they all offered the same price. 

My WS wanted me to buy groceries, she told me yesterday so I did.

I am broke. I mean broke and I and I just got paid yesterday. But I have peace. I think that is why she is miserable. And she is letting my son use her card to take money out, buy concert tickets, etc after I told him we don't have money for that stuff. He said to me this morning I don't care about money, mom lets me get what I want. He says I am not managing the money right (same thing my WS said last week). I did not tell him that his mother spent over $1,000.00 last month on stuff that did not need to get done. She got her car fixed because some guy said her axles are going to fall off ($507.00). I do some repairs and she got ripped off. Her brother (he a good mechanic and finish carpenter as well as a missionary) told me, Mac, I know her car and she could have waited till summer. Those axles don't fall off. I told him, I just don't want to argue. I said I had the same axles replaced a few years ago and the mechanic told me they needed replaced but we could wait. I just went ahead and had him replace them.

hanging out at Dunkin Donuts, LOL I am a regular here and some of the same guys come in and we talk a bit.


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## Shoshan1290

Thorburn said:


> Had an appointment at the bank early this morning to sign some papers. Left the house early, came back in the afternoon. My WS was outside with the dog, she gave me one dirty look and went up to her room. I had to bring the dog in. I watched a movie and could not stand being in the house. My son is going to a heavy metal concert tonight and I thought let her deal with it, it will go to about midnight. So I hung out at stores, sold a set of gold ear rings. Did my research and got my price. not much but got what I thought I would. I went to four places and they all offered the same price.
> 
> My WS wanted me to buy groceries, she told me yesterday so I did.
> 
> I am broke. I mean broke and I and I just got paid yesterday. But I have peace. I think that is why she is miserable. And she is letting my son use her card to take money out, buy concert tickets, etc after I told him we don't have money for that stuff. He said to me this morning I don't care about money, mom lets me get what I want. He says I am not managing the money right (same thing my WS said last week). I did not tell him that his mother spent over $1,000.00 last month on stuff that did not need to get done. She got her car fixed because some guy said her axles are going to fall off ($507.00). I do some repairs and she got ripped off. Her brother (he a good mechanic and finish carpenter as well as a missionary) told me, Mac, I know her car and she could have waited till summer. Those axles don't fall off. I told him, I just don't want to argue. I said I had the same axles replaced a few years ago and the mechanic told me they needed replaced but we could wait. I just went ahead and had him replace them.
> 
> hanging out at Dunkin Donuts, LOL I am a regular here and some of the same guys come in and we talk a bit.



Thorburn -- I say this with as much affection & kindness one can possibly muster over the internet. Get that b&tc! out of your house. Seriously, reading these things is so distressing and you deserve so much better than this.


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## happyman64

Why can't you let your wife buy the groceries if she is letting your son go to a concert?

You should have handed her the list back to her and said "It's your turn'"

And walked away.

Leave her no choice.

And if she wants to give you the evil eye and runto her room, so be it.

I think you are doing the best you can.

But put some responsibilities back on her shoulder.

HM64


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## Thorburn

Shoshan1290 said:


> Thorburn -- I say this with as much affection & kindness one can possibly muster over the internet. Get that b&tc! out of your house. Seriously, reading these things is so distressing and you deserve so much better than this.


I legally can't. If I push her I can get a PFA thrown at me. My son would back her up. Believe you me I want her out and my attorney said she can't kick me out either. If she could leave she would. She never planned for this. I am hoping that one of her friends will help her.

Seriously, there is nothing I can do at the moment to get her out.


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## spudster

I would have smacked your son in the mouth...learning disabled or not I don't see why you should put up with that sh!t. That just burns me. Why doesn't your younger son take him out and wail on him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

happyman64 said:


> Why can't you let your wife buy the groceries if she is letting your son go to a concert?
> 
> You should have handed her the list back to her and said "It's your turn'"
> 
> And walked away.
> 
> Leave her no choice.
> 
> And if she wants to give you the evil eye and runto her room, so be it.
> 
> I think you are doing the best you can.
> 
> But put some responsibilities back on her shoulder.
> 
> HM64


I have not said much to her. My attorney said buy the groceries. I have not told my wife that I have an attorney nor anything about the groceries. So when she gave me the list I took it in stride. I will soon be able to cut her off financially and when I do I am to tell her. But truthfully, it is going to hurt me if she does not help. I can't pay the bills as it is and without her help it will get worse. 

Can't explain it but I am at peace. Had to get out of the house and stayed out most of the day. Just got home a little while ago.

Since my jeans are falling off me I went to a store to see what size I am in. I have gone from XL right past L to medium.


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## Shaggy

Why oh why are you sharing a bank account?


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## Thorburn

spudster said:


> I would have smacked your son in the mouth...learning disabled or not I don't see why you should put up with that sh!t. That just burns me. Why doesn't your younger son take him out and wail on him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My younger son and I know how he is. Believe me my special needs son gets picked on too much as it is. One guy broke my son's nose last year out of spite at a concert. He was bragging that he was going to do this to my son to his friends before the concert. My son has folks that look after him and they broke the guy's arm and one rib, as they took him out back and beat the crap out of him and made him apologize to my son. 

My youngest son lives 1 1/2 hours away and tried to talk sense into his brother but you can't. The best approach is what I am doing. Let him curse at me and then calm him down and don't feed into his mother's crap. In the past my WS and I would be on the same page in addressing him. 

My WS will not be able to deal with him alone. That I know. She is letting him buy pot by giving him money. I always said no.


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## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Why oh why are you sharing a bank account?


Right now I have to. I am in the process of shutting her off. I already have a separate account and she can only access the account with her debit card. She no longer has access to the account online. My bank took care of that. She tried to get it reversed and our bank told her I am the principle account holder and she can't do a thing.

I just got paid yesterday and I have less then $200.00 in both accounts. 

I am at the point that it does not matter. I am freaken broke.

I can get money for gas, etc from friends. 

Even with all the pressure I feel above it somehow.

What can I do anyway? Swallow a bullet? She is not worth it.


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## tdwal

Thorburn said:


> Right now I have to. I am in the process of shutting her off. I already have a separate account and she can only access the account with her debit card. She no longer has access to the account online. My bank took care of that. She tried to get it reversed and our bank told her I am the principle account holder and she can't do a thing.
> 
> I just got paid yesterday and I have less then $200.00 in both accounts.
> 
> I am at the point that it does not matter. I am freaken broke.
> 
> I can get money for gas, etc from friends.
> 
> Even with all the pressure I feel above it somehow.
> 
> What can I do anyway? Swallow a bullet? She is not worth it.


She is definitely not worth it.


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## spudster

No she's not. You'll make it Thorburn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

happyman64 said:


> I am saying a prayer for you right now that your strength continues and your patience through this crisis does not wear thin.
> 
> 
> *By the way you are an awesome Dad Thorburn!
> *


I agree 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Thorburn~

One thing I learned about the wheels of justice: they grind slowly (very, VERY slowly) but they do grind. People here will want you to close your joint account, cut off all credit cards, pack all of her things, throw her out, and shove all "her half of the household" into a storage unit, file divorce, make copies of the VAR proof, expose her to everyone, contact the OM's spouse and all that stuff TODAY. Sometimes, to protect yourself you have to move fast! LOL :lol: In real life no one could do all that in one day, and we know that. We just want you to be wise and protected.

It sounds to me like you have a bit of a grip on what you can and can not do, and like you have somewhat of a plan for what you need to do and when. Here's my one and only suggestion to you Thorburn. I suggest that you take a deep breath, and every day do not procrastinate. DO what you have to do. When it's time to execute an action according to your attorney's recommendations--DO IT. When it's time to file something, declare bankruptcy or whatever it is...DO IT. 

I speak as someone who has divorced, lost a home and a business, and filed bankruptcy myself. I felt bad. I was very sad. I felt like such a loser and kind of ashamed even though I wasn't the one who caused it all. I lost everything I thought I had--everything. But guess what? I lived through it and I'm happy! You will be too. But in order to get from A to B, when you need to do something, you need to hold your head up and take that step into the unknown. Okay? 

Part of you may feel like it's cruel to cut off her groceries, but part of the consequence of making choices that destroy a marriage and a family is that she is now responsible for her own groceries. She had you and she chose to fire you. Likewise if you move too soon, you may harm your case or put yourself in a position where you owe more. You know how it is in your state: once you file, she can do that "alimony pending litigation" thing and then the judge orders you to pay. Right now, as you hold off and pay a little to maintain her, a) it's within your limited budget and b) it counts toward voluntary support. Document it and keep receipts! 

Thorburn, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being broke or being poor. Shoot, Dear Hubby and I have been poor our whole marriage and we are ecstatically happy! That's because money doesn't buy love or happiness--it just takes some pressure off


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## spudster

After Thorburn climbs out of this dark hole and leaves Gollum down in the depths, he's going to emerge into the light a new and happier man. There will be scars and painful memories to be sure, but no good man stays down for long. I see a bright and happy horizon out there for you Thorburn. Just keep stumbling towards it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

Affaircare said:


> Thorburn~
> 
> One thing I learned about the wheels of justice: they grind slowly (very, VERY slowly) but they do grind. People here will want you to close your joint account, cut off all credit cards, pack all of her things, throw her out, and shove all "her half of the household" into a storage unit, file divorce, make copies of the VAR proof, expose her to everyone, contact the OM's spouse and all that stuff TODAY. Sometimes, to protect yourself you have to move fast! LOL :lol: In real life no one could do all that in one day, and we know that. We just want you to be wise and protected.
> 
> It sounds to me like you have a bit of a grip on what you can and can not do, and like you have somewhat of a plan for what you need to do and when. Here's my one and only suggestion to you Thorburn. I suggest that you take a deep breath, and every day do not procrastinate. DO what you have to do. When it's time to execute an action according to your attorney's recommendations--DO IT. When it's time to file something, declare bankruptcy or whatever it is...DO IT.
> 
> I speak as someone who has divorced, lost a home and a business, and filed bankruptcy myself. I felt bad. I was very sad. I felt like such a loser and kind of ashamed even though I wasn't the one who caused it all. I lost everything I thought I had--everything. But guess what? I lived through it and I'm happy! You will be too. But in order to get from A to B, when you need to do something, you need to hold your head up and take that step into the unknown. Okay?
> 
> Part of you may feel like it's cruel to cut off her groceries, but part of the consequence of making choices that destroy a marriage and a family is that she is now responsible for her own groceries. She had you and she chose to fire you. Likewise if you move too soon, you may harm your case or put yourself in a position where you owe more. You know how it is in your state: once you file, she can do that "alimony pending litigation" thing and then the judge orders you to pay. Right now, as you hold off and pay a little to maintain her, a) it's within your limited budget and b) it counts toward voluntary support. Document it and keep receipts!
> 
> Thorburn, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being broke or being poor. Shoot, Dear Hubby and I have been poor our whole marriage and we are ecstatically happy! That's because money doesn't buy love or happiness--it just takes some pressure off


Thanks. You understand. Some of the things I can't do right now but as my attorney has said, when you can, then do it. I did not think about keeping receipts but I do have them. Though most of what I paid is from my checking account so 95% is easily proven. The rest that I have paid in cash I do have the receipts. 

I am not ashamed of being broke. I felt broken yesterday morning and I cried for the first time, pulled along the road on my way from the bank and felt a crushing wave of emotion come over me. I sent my pastor and two BIL's a text, and they all sent me words of encouragement, very quickly. 

I feel very grounded got through that short period of emotion yesterday morning. I know the destruction that my WS has brought upon us, family, money, etc. 

At least she spends almost all her time in her room.


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## Thorburn

spudster said:


> After Thorburn climbs out of this dark hole and leaves Gollum down in the depths, he's going to emerge into the light a new and happier man. There will be scars and painful memories to be sure, but no good man stays down for long. I see a bright and happy horizon out there for you Thorburn. Just keep stumbling towards it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your illustration is very accurate. I am moving forward and have not retreated at all. Sometimes I am in a stall but I have not moved backwards. The goal is going to be worth it. Right now I am climbing the hill of difficulty. In Pilgrim's Progress when he gets to the Hill of Difficulty, he says: "This hill, though high, I covet to ascend;
The difficulty will not me offend,
For I perceive the way to life lies here:
Come, pluck up, heart, let's neither faint nor fear!
Better, though difficult, the right way to go,
Than wrong, though easy, where the end is woe." 

The other two also came to the foot of the hill. But when they saw that the hill was steep and high, and that there were two other ways to go; and supposing also that these two ways might meet again with that up which CHRISTIAN went, on the other side of the hill, therefore they were resolved to go in those ways (now the name of one of those ways was "Danger," and the name of the other "Destruction"). So the one took the way which is called Danger, which led him into a great wood; and the other took directly up the way to Destruction, which led him into a wide field full of dark mountains, where he stumbled and fell, and rose no more.

My WS has chosen destruction.


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## tdwal

Your mention of the evil foreboding you mentioned yesterday may mean she isn't making the choices without influence if you know what I mean.


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## Chaparral

I still think your wife was brain damaged in her accident. I wish she could be examined by the right doctors/psychaitrists.

Her behavior just seems to bizarre to me.


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## Thorburn

tdwal said:


> Your mention of the evil foreboding you mentioned yesterday may mean she isn't making the choices without influence if you know what I mean.


I do. That is what her family believes.


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## bandit.45

A person who is sexually immoral is generally immoral in most aspects of his or her life. It doesn't surprise me that she enables her sons drug use and steals her husbands money then blames him for mismanaging it. Its all part and parcel of having a rotten soul.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

chapparal said:


> I still think your wife was brain damaged in her accident. I wish she could be examined by the right doctors/psychaitrists.
> 
> Her behavior just seems to bizarre to me.


Certainly her accident back in the 90's with her brain damage could have had an impact.

In grad school I was required to write a joint paper with three other students. The professor was known in the APA and presented psychological scales that are still in use and presented at various APA meetings over the years. I tried to get in contact with him and found out he died last year. The topic was demon possession, oppression and mental illness. We took various Christian traditions from the time of Jesus to the current time and looked at various psychological theories in regard to mental illness. In summary we concluded that humans are spiritual, mental, physical, social beings. A brain tumor (physical) can cause a person to do bizarre behavior including sexual activity which they would not have done before the tumor which would not be attributed to demonic activity. We did not dismiss demonic influences but we did not dismiss physical or psychological influences. The group I was part of believed in a broken world in which there are many influences that could account for behaviors.

If my WS's behavior is because of her accident in the 90's I understand that brain damage can cause this type of behavior. But let's say, I discover it is the cause of her behavior. What am I to do? Seriously.

I believe in evil forces but I am not out there looking for them. I also know about mental illness. I really don't know what is causing my WS's destructive behavior. The fact that she is spending most of her time in her room is strange as well. She rarely leaves her room. She seems to be getting more angry. I only saw her once today and she would not even look at me and looked more angry then ever before.

I feel pity for her. She is not in a good place, if she was, her attitude would be completely different.

Most of my day is positive. I am not in great circumstances. I am grounded in reality. I know things are not going great for me. But I am above it. I am moving forward, slowly, but moving forward.


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> A person who is sexually immoral is generally immoral in most aspects of his or her life. It doesn't surprise me that she enables her sons drug use and steals her husbands money then blames him for mismanaging it. Its all part and parcel of having a rotten soul.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I heard an old sermon on T.V. today by Charles Stanley on Truth. Man oh man. It nailed her lying. Lying and not telling the truth is destructive. That is all she has done since at least 1999 is lie. When you fail to bring truth into your life it will cause confusion, develop evil habits, cause emotional bondage, cause you to be thrown off balance emotionally, have poor relationships with others, can't have peace, etc.

You are correct. A rotten soul.


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## SaltInWound

Thor, the more I read your thread, the more I am convinced my husband and your wife are twins. Just darkness. All the addictions that he refuses to admit and get help for. Nothing is ever his fault. An inability to have healthy relationships. My husband hurts the people who care about him the most. We are completely shut out.....even his own son. His selfishness and anger consumes him and he surrounds himself only with those who praise his poor choices. All you can do is feel pity for people like that. They really do choose destruction. It might not happen today or tomorrow, but it is coming.......and they know it. They feel it.


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## Chaparral

You are still her husband. She just may be like this. But it sounds psychological to me. I would explore having her committed to make sure I wasn't throwing a sick wife under the bus.

I am worried she is becoming unstable and possibly dangerous

I also do not see how having her committed could make it worse and you might save her/your life.


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## SaltInWound

You are a good man for not walking away from her. Just remember to not lose yourself in the process.


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## Thorburn

chapparal said:


> You are still her husband. She just may be like this. But it sounds psychological to me. I would explore having her committed to make sure I wasn't throwing a sick wife under the bus.
> 
> I am worried she is becoming unstable and possibly dangerous
> 
> I also do not see how having her committed could make it worse and you might save her/your life.


I can't have her committed. I have done 302's (involuntary commitments). The last one was months ago with a Veteran. I think I have done about 6 since the 90's. My son in 2011. I know the process and what is required.

My WS would not meet the criteria. She has to threaten to kill herself or someone, has to have a clear intent and admit to it that she threatened her life or someone's. There are some other criteria but I would look foolish if I tried to take this type of action. 

She does need serious help. She does not see it and might never see it until it is too late. 

I remember Andy in college. He had mental issues. One night I was on the pay phone talking to my mother. Andy was in the pay phone booth next to me. I could hear everything. He was talking to a friend in North Carolina. Andy said he was going to kill himself and his friend was yelling, Andy don't, Andy don't. Andy ran outside and the phone was dangling and his friend was yelling. I told my mother I had to go and ran out to get Andy. It was the foggiest night I ever remember, I could barely see my hands. I could not see Andy, I called the chaplain (a retired Army colonel who served in Vietnam). We got other students to do a search. Andy jumped from a bridge in front of a tractor trailer and was killed instantly. When he ran out of the dorm he went down to the highway and jumped. He was dead about the time I called the chaplain. We found out later and the chaplain called me about 2 A.M. I remember lashing out and the chaplain said, Mac, we knew Andy had problems but we can't watch him 24 hours a day. He was correct. Andy refused help.


----------



## Thorburn

SaltInWound said:


> You are a good man for not walking away from her. Just remember to not lose yourself in the process.


When I can afford it I will walk away from her. If I could kick her out legally I would. I still love her but I will not allow her behavior, lies, manipulation in my life. I will forgive her but I don't want her in my life.


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## Affaircare

Thorburn said:


> ... I am not ashamed of being broke. I felt broken yesterday morning and I cried for the first time, pulled along the road on my way from the bank and felt a crushing wave of emotion come over me. I sent my pastor and two BIL's a text, and they all sent me words of encouragement, very quickly.


This is why I believe in you, Thorburn...because there really is no shame in being poor. It just is what it is. Plus, the Lord gives and the Lord takes away...it's all His anyway, whether He's given you wealth or not. All throughout the Bible, we are told to be kind but fair to the poor, they are to be treated with justice and generosity, and we are to share with those who have less than we do... so we know the poor will always be with us and we know that our financial condition has nothing to do with our relationship to the Lord. Honestly for me, it was a GREAT lesson in learning a) I didn't build all this b) It's not mine (in the sense that "it can't be taken away") and c) I was depending on myself to provide for myself rather than putting my trust where I should. 

So keep going. From what I can see you're doing well and at a slow but steady pace. Keep depending on the Lord to provide for you, and He will. And remember in Matt 10:14, Mark 6:11 and Luke 9:5 Jesus was sending his disciples into nearby cities to tell the people about Him, and He specifically told them: "If people do not welcome you or listen to your words, leave their town and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.” We aren't supposed to harbor resentment or be unforgiving, but we also are not supposed to cling to them and stay in their association. It is a testimony against THEM.


----------



## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> It was quite a story. My WS's grandfather was told by neighbors to follow them and he did not. He felt that God was telling him where to go and he and his family took refuge in a basement. Then there was a loud explosion and the building that their neighbors took refuge in was destroyed and everyone was killed. He was then told to follow the crowd. He took his family and went another way to leave the city and was warned that he was putting his family in danger. As they were leaving they watched in horror as the crowd that they were suppose to follow were all killed. As they fled to the West the Russians raped my MIL as a young teen and raped and killed her aunt.


Yes, that's an amazing story about their escape. I used to know a guy who was from Kiev when it was part of Poland. He was about 5 yrs old when the Germans invaded west Poland in 39, the Russians grabbed east Poland. My friends mother was quite a babe so they had to smuggle her over the river into the German controlled sector due to the rapes being committed by the Russians.


----------



## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> My WS has chosen destruction.


Bunyan rules. Or I should say, his boss does.


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## bandit.45

If I had a wife who met strange men for sex, my fear would be not her killing herself, but of one of her clandestine meetups going badly. 

She is in way over her head. She thinks she is control of these men. So sad. 

All its going to take is for her to hook up with the wrong dude....a true sadistic sociopath. He may decide she's not giving it up enough or she's not respecting him enough and the sex turns rough and before she knows it he has his hands around her throat... and 48 hours later Thorburn is filing a missing persons report on her. 

Damn it sucks.


----------



## BjornFree

I have to say Thorburn, you're handling this like a thorough gentleman. Cheers.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> If I had a wife who met strange men for sex, my fear would be not her killing herself, but of one of her clandestine meetups going badly.
> 
> She is in way over her head. She thinks she is control of these men. So sad.
> 
> All its going to take is for her to hook up with the wrong dude....a true sadistic sociopath. He may decide she's not giving it up enough or she's not respecting him enough and the sex turns rough and before she knows it he has his hands around her throat... and 48 hours later Thorburn is filing a missing persons report on her.
> 
> Damn it sucks.


In my WS's mind, I am the one controlling her, manipulating her and abusing her. I have the text on my phone. Where she angerily writes, "I will never ever be controlled or manipulated or abused by anyone ever again".

When we were selling things on craigslist (we still are) a few months ago my WS said a guy wanted to meet her halfway to buy an item. I was just warned on FB from my ex SIL that her BIL was robbed and almost killed when he went to sell his motorcycle by meeting a guy halfway. On the recording my WS is telling the OM almost laughing that "my husband does not want me to meet this guy". She was saying basically that "Hey there is nothing wrong with this".

She does not know or care about the danger she can put herself by doing this stuff. I suspect that she is or was using CL to hook up with men. So why would she care.

There are days when I go home expecting to see a blood trail, I am serious, I have had those fears. Some dude or some dude's wife taking revenge. 

I see her pathology. Her two older brothers see her pathology, you all see it.

I talked to my two older BIL's last night. The oldest said I have exposed her where she is like a skeleton with nothing more to hide, she can't blame me in their eyes. He and his other brother said this is so dark and evil. They both say they are praying that God does something drastic in her life. 

The middle BIL in a course of a few months when he was younger, his mother and others were praying for him for him to become a believer. He was involved with a married woman. He was in construction. He almost cut off his leg had to move back home to have his mother care for him and then on the first day as an insurance salesman (he could not work contruction for a while) he lost his right eye (might tell the story later) by having someone put a screwdriver in his eye by accident. He still continued to meet with the woman. Drove to Virginia from the Poconos in a blizzard and with one eye could barely see. No one knows what happened when he met with the married woman in Virginia but things did not work out and he came home almost as soon as he got to her place and got his life turned around and became a missionary. He was telling me the story last night and he said he wants to talk to his sister (my WS) but she is not open to talking to him or his older brother and is hoping that he gets a chance. He fears that something worse may happen to her.


----------



## Thorburn

I have tried to call my youngest BIL to see how he is doing post surgery. He texted me and said his family is very ill. He had two hernias repaired, and now his five children, he and their foster care baby are very ill with the flu, naseau, etc. They almost had to take some of the kids to the e.r. last night.

He typically returns my calls but since Friday he just texts me saying his family is ill and this morning he gave me more details of their illness, via text.

Yesterday by chance I saw where he has been talking to my WS,quite a bit on our landline. I did not even know she had it hooked up until my son told me a few days ago. I was watching T.V. and my youngest BIL's name popped up on the T.V. screen as an incoming call.

Call it a coincidence but since he talked to my WS for over 51 minutes on Friday his family has gotten severly ill. I warned him to be very careful and shared this with my other BILs. They have not talked to him in a while but warned him to stay clear of their sister. He has not heeded their warnings. I believe that there is something very evil going on here. I sense it, I have felt it and believe me I am not typically this way. I have read stories of this kind of stuff, but to me they were just stories. I am now living it.

Honestly it is beyond my comprehension and experience. There is a darkness and an evil, that I feel. No, Mac is not cracking up. I am telling you that however you want to explain it this is bizarre. I believe in evil and if your worldview differs then interpret it for how you see it.

I use to watch the X-Files. Man, my life is like one of those episodes. I see things happening and can't explain it. Know that there is a connection to evil but it is beyond my comprehension.


----------



## the guy

Thats some scary stuff. Your lucking your a believer...you already have the armor.


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## Thorburn

the guy said:


> Thats some scary stuff. Your lucking your a believer...you already have the armor.


I know. My Youngest BIL sent me a long text. My WS says I cut her off financially, I did not. And a bunch of other lies. He says he does not what to believe from her but wants to keep the lines of communications opened.


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## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> I know. My Youngest BIL sent me a long text. *My WS says I cut her off financially*, Right. Didn't you just shell out for groceries/pay for her car? Yeah, she's really badly done by! I did not. And a bunch of other lies. He says he does not what to believe from her but wants to keep the lines of communications opened.


I get more angry the more I read about this woman. I really would love five minutes with her just to tell her some stuff about life.

Please please please Thorburn, beg, borrow or whatever enough money to retain a lawyer and serve this woman with D papers. I hear what you say about the 'evil' that you feel is happening around you. Don't ignore your feelings. Go with your gut.

FILE!


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## Thorburn

Now the latest. My special needs son calls me from a pay phone. He is relaying things from his mother (my WS). Apparently the cable, internet and phone has been cut off. My son says I am being selfish and demands that I pay the bill immediately. He said you just got paid on Friday and have plenty of money and I better pay it now and hung up.

I would if I could. I can't i have less than $200.00 to last me for two weeks. I need gas and have to buy food. 

Things are going to get worse and there will be other things that will be shut off.

Of course this is all my fault. 

I would love to go home tonight and tell her to say to our son:

1. Tell him you spent $507.00 on your sex wagon on a repair that was not needed yet.
2. Tell him you spent $300.00 on a business that we have been losing money when you figure in time and gas.
3. Tell him the money you spent on gas and food and other things hooking up with strangers.
4. Tell him what you spent on a secret phone and tell him you spent almost $1000.00 on a secret phone from Sept to Nov in 2011.
5. Show him the reciepts from work and the antique business, how much you have made and where it went.

I don't even feel like going home today. 

My son does not get it. He is special needs and he lives on the internet. He blames me and there is no way to change his mind. I am not even going to try.

If this was Mac from 2012 I would get two fifths of bourbon and get plastered. I don't even feel the urge to drink. I feel pity for her and for what she is doing to my son. 

My WS will continue to blame me for everything that is going wrong in her life.


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## survivorwife

Thorburn said:


> Now the latest. My special needs son calls me from a pay phone. He is relaying things from his mother (my WS). Apparently the cable, internet and phone has been cut off. My son says I am being selfish and demands that I pay the bill immediately. He said you just got paid on Friday and have plenty of money and I better pay it now and hung up.
> 
> I would if I could. I can't i have less than $200.00 to last me for two weeks. I need gas and have to buy food.
> 
> Things are going to get worse and there will be other things that will be shut off.
> 
> Of course this is all my fault.
> 
> I would love to go home tonight and tell her to say to our son:
> 
> 1. Tell him you spent $507.00 on your sex wagon on a repair that was not needed yet.
> 2. Tell him you spent $300.00 on a business that we have been losing money when you figure in time and gas.
> 3. Tell him the money you spent on gas and food and other things hooking up with strangers.
> 4. Tell him what you spent on a secret phone and tell him you spent almost $1000.00 on a secret phone from Sept to Nov in 2011.
> 5. Show him the reciepts from work and the antique business, how much you have made and where it went.
> 
> I don't even feel like going home today.
> 
> *My son does not get it. He is special needs and he lives on the internet. He blames me and there is no way to change his mind. I am not even going to try.*
> 
> If this was Mac from 2012 I would get two fifths of bourbon and get plastered. I don't even feel the urge to drink. I feel pity for her and for what she is doing to my son.
> 
> My WS will continue to blame me for everything that is going wrong in her life.


I am so sorry you are going through all this. Your WS has no right to put your son in the middle, feed him with lies, prey on his emotions and be so darn selfish and self-serving while using your son to fight her battles (and I was being relatively kind about her).

That being said (and this coming from a woman, so it's fair game...lol) maybe you should confront her (after you cool down). Request that she not direct her (financial) concerns to your son, but direct them to you instead and you will be more than happy to discuss the financial situation with her. If she takes you up on that discussion, feel free to cite your list to her.

And yes, if you have an alternate "safe place" to go, that might be a good idea to head there. I don't know your WS, but the way she is using your son is beginning to tick me off. I can't begin to imagine the emotions that you are dealing with, however it appears that you are the only one in the bunch with some decency. I pray that you can maintain through all of this.


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## Thorburn

I just went over our bank accounts and sent this to my BIL's as my WS is feeding her youngest brother a load of crap.

Fact: All since March 1st

1. Since March 1st till today (her last activity was today) she has had full access to our joint account. She told her brother that I cut her off.
2. She has spent as of March 1st till today $689.73 from our joint account. In locations where I know she has been hooking up with guys and in locations she has no business being. 
3. She has gotten my son's social security check, work checks and our antique business checks and has not given me a dime.
4. i have paid out $2999.11 in bills.
5. i transferred $300.00 into my account. Out of that I have bought groceries, gas and few other items. I have $70.00 left.
6. As of 2 hours ago we had $77.00 in our joint account.

She is accusing me of mismanaging our money. I paid bills out of our joint account and only took $300.00. With that I paid for groceries and my gas and some other items. And yet I still have $70.00.

All things that are from my bank accounts and I printed this out. If she starts in on me I will show her (without our son being present). No I won't. She will look at where she has been and come up with excuses to her family.

I am just going to leave it alone.

We would have almost an extra $2000.00 if she had not spent the money from March 1st and have put the checks in our account.


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## badbane

Thor your wife is in the fog. Keep that in mind as you deal with her. You are dealing with a drug addict who was addicted to the lifestyle and the freedom. You have taken away the lifestyle and she cannot see the way things are right now. You wife's thinking is stuck back when you two were married and she was enjoying the runaround. Now her mind is trying not to ruin the fantasy. That's what she is fighting for. So don't try and make sense of it all. Protect as many of your assests as possible. Calculate how much money she needs in order to survive and put that in the joint account only. Your son doesn't get it so just let him not get it. Watch your blood pressure and make sure you protect yourself. If you really wanted to be a jerk and make your wife freak out don't put anything in the joint account make her send you all of the monthly bills and pay them yourself. If she asks for grocery money give her an allowance. Make her have to come crawling to you for every dime except for what is needed to keep a roof over her head and food on the table for your son and her.


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## survivorwife

badbane said:


> Thor your wife is in the fog. Keep that in mind as you deal with her. You are dealing with a drug addict who was addicted to the lifestyle and the freedom. You have taken away the lifestyle and she cannot see the way things are right now. You wife's thinking is stuck back when you two were married and she was enjoying the runaround. Now her mind is trying not to ruin the fantasy. That's what she is fighting for. So don't try and make sense of it all. Protect as many of your assests as possible. Calculate how much money she needs in order to survive and put that in the joint account only. Your son doesn't get it so just let him not get it. Watch your blood pressure and make sure you protect yourself. If you really wanted to be a jerk and make your wife freak out don't put anything in the joint account make her send you all of the monthly bills and pay them yourself. If she asks for grocery money give her an allowance. Make her have to come crawling to you for every dime except for what is needed to keep a roof over her head and food on the table for your son and her.



:iagree:

Excellent advise.


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## TDSC60

This seems like it might turn dangerous. When I say watch your back I am being literal as in - sleep with the bedroom door locked. Don't walk down any stairs without checking to see who is behind you.

Built up anger and rage can turn violent at the drop of a hat.

Be careful.


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## Thorburn

badbane said:


> Thor your wife is in the fog. Keep that in mind as you deal with her. You are dealing with a drug addict who was addicted to the lifestyle and the freedom. You have taken away the lifestyle and she cannot see the way things are right now. You wife's thinking is stuck back when you two were married and she was enjoying the runaround. Now her mind is trying not to ruin the fantasy. That's what she is fighting for. So don't try and make sense of it all. Protect as many of your assests as possible. Calculate how much money she needs in order to survive and put that in the joint account only. Your son doesn't get it so just let him not get it. Watch your blood pressure and make sure you protect yourself. If you really wanted to be a jerk and make your wife freak out don't put anything in the joint account make her send you all of the monthly bills and pay them yourself. If she asks for grocery money give her an allowance. Make her have to come crawling to you for every dime except for what is needed to keep a roof over her head and food on the table for your son and her.


My attorney says no allowance. She has money coming in. My son cursed me out when I got home. They paid the bill so I have internet. I said I will not discuss money with you. My attorney said pay the bills buy the groceries and all she need is gas money and since she has income she can handle it on her own. He says I owe her nothing at this point. I have not followed his advice and I still have to do some things before I can cut her off completely. I would be $700.00 ahead if I did follow his advice.

My youngest BIL called me. He did not get it. My WS has been calling him crying saying I cut her off from the money, she said she is no longer fooling around and that I am driving her away by cutting her off from the money.

I set him straight. I laid out what she has spent. And even today she took money out of our joint account. I said everyone has told me to cut her off, that all I am doing is allowing her to continue with her addiction. My middle BIL told me that an hour ago, cut her off. My youngest BIL says she is lying to him and his mind is spinning, he says he gets it now. He says it is unbelievable. He says I believe you. I said I will send you the account information if you don't, he said I do not need to do that. I said she is still hooking up with men.

I am going to see if I can cut her card off as well as the checks. I have to keep the account open for just a while longer.


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## bandit.45

Keep precise records of everything. Go out and buy a big leger book and record it all, save your reciepts and if you do your bills online write down all the transaction numbers and keep all that for your lawyer to use. If he can show a pattern of her mispending the joint monies, he can maybe have her alimony reduced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## survivorwife

bandit.45 said:


> Keep precise records of everything. Go out and buy a big leger book and record it all, save your reciepts and if you do your bills online write down all the transaction numbers and keep all that for your lawyer to use. If he can show a pattern of her mispending the joint monies, he can maybe have her alimony reduced.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Either that, or her "half of the marital assets" will be reduced by the amounts she is currently taking out of the "marital assets" for her personal use.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Thorburn said:


> she said she is no longer fooling around and that I am driving her away by cutting her off from the money.


LOL! So, nothing about lack of affection, no emotional support, broken family ties and the cold shoulder you have been giving her? All those examples would be a LEGIT argument for her stating you are driving her away. Naw, she brings up money.

Sorry to be blunt, but that shows you HER priorities and they do not include you.


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## bandit.45

phillybeffandswiss said:


> LOL! So, nothing about lack of affection, no emotional support, broken family ties and the cold shoulder you have been giving her? All those examples would be a LEGIT argument for her stating you are driving her away. Naw, she brings up money.
> 
> Sorry to be blunt, but that shows you HER priorities and they do not include you.


Good point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Keep precise records of everything. Go out and buy a big leger book and record it all, save your reciepts and if you do your bills online write down all the transaction numbers and keep all that for your lawyer to use. If he can show a pattern of her mispending the joint monies, he can maybe have her alimony reduced.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


the almost $700 that she spent from March 1st is from our joint account and shows her card number. It is our bank account so I have records. 

Now her younger brother sees it.  He is a millionaire and she has been playing him. He is tender and wants to keep in contact with his sister. The family is afraid that he may their last hope in reaching her. It is going to be interesting to say the least. I think my WS was hoping she could convince him to give her money. He was buying most of her story. 

I am glad I did not cut her off. If I had it would have played into her hand with her youngest brother. She lied to him. And I have proof. All she can do is lie and it is catching up to her real fast. 

I can see this exchange:
Slu**: Mac, won't give me money, he cut me off, woe is me, see how mean he is.
Young bro: But ****t* sister of mine, Mac says he has not cut you off and he says you have spent almost $700.00 from your joint account since March 1st and says you even spent money today. Mac says you have gotten checks and have not shared them with him. 
Slu** But oh sweet rich brother of mine, he is a dad bum liar and his pants are on fire. You believe me don't you? How could I ever lie to you. You know me, me the one who loves the Phillies, and is their number one fan. You know me who would never ever lie to you. Mac is just so mean.
Young bro: Oh my, ****t* sister of mine. How could I be so deceived. How about us going to the opening game together and it is on me, OK?
****** sure. How about them Phils? This is their year.
Young bro Oh my ****t* sister of mine. Let's talk about the Phillies, Mac is nuts anyways. 
****** Hey did you hear, yada yada yada.

And her life is now normal again. Her brother loves her and she is content.

No animals were killed in the above dramatization. But seriously this is how she is. Unless you show solid proof on anything she will lie and lie. I don't know if confronted what her excuse will be. With me it was always, I knew you would get mad.


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## Thorburn

phillybeffandswiss said:


> LOL! So, nothing about lack of affection, no emotional support, broken family ties and the cold shoulder you have been giving her? All those examples would be a LEGIT argument for her stating you are driving her away. Naw, she brings up money.
> 
> Sorry to be blunt, but that shows you HER priorities and they do not include you.


Apparently it never did. Like my attorney said, she never planned on leaving I was her meal ticket.


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## bandit.45

You know Thorburn, I've followed your story for over a year now. And one thing that stands out to me is that when push came to shove your gut never let you down. 

Even last year when you and your wife were living apart and she was hanging out with that toxic girlfriend of hers, you talked about how your gut was screaming at you that something bad was going on. 

For a while you chose to ignore your gut. You bought a new house and moved in with your wife, and for a little while things started looking up. Then she started witholding sex from you again. Your gut started talking to you again and finally you caved, ignored your heart, and bought a VAR. 

Boom! Here we are now!

Thorburn your heart has always decieved you, because I belive it is such a warm, loving heart that it really is blind to lies and deciet. 

Your gut? Your gut is your warrior soul. It has never failed you. Please listen to it more, even if what it tells you hurts like a jagged knife. Don't ever trap yourself in the same situation you did last year. If your gut is telling you something evil is going on in and around your wife, the for God's sake heed it and take steps to distance yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> You know Thorburn, I've followed your story for over a year now. And one thing that stands out to me is that when push came to shove your gut never let you down.
> 
> Even last year when you and your wife were living apart and she was hanging out with that toxic girlfriend of hers, you talked about how your gut was screaming at you that something bad was going on.
> 
> For a while you chose to ignore your gut. You bought a new house and moved in with your wife, and for a little while things started looking up. Then she started witholding sex from you again. Your gut started talking to you again and finally you caved, ignored your heart, and bought a VAR.
> 
> Boom! Here we are now!
> 
> Thorburn your heart has always decieved you, because I belive it is such a warm, loving heart that it really is blind to lies and deciet.
> 
> Your gut? Your gut is your warrior soul. It has never failed you. Please listen to it more, even if what it tells you hurts like a jagged knife. Don't ever trap yourself in the same situation you did last year. If your gut is telling you something evil is going on in and around your wife, the for God's sake heed it and take steps to distance yourself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Jerimiah 17: 9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

Bandit you nailed it and you do see me. My gut has been correct. The counselors that I have gone to since 2010 told me, warned me and all said the same thing. 

I have been working on detaching and distancing myself.

Being able to talk to my youngest BIL yesterday hopefully will allow the family to all be on the same page. My WS was splitting the family. And her younger brother was enabling her behavior by believing her.

I have my hand on the plow and am moving forward. Funny, I use to do a little farming with my dad. We had a few acres across from my parent's house. We had a John Deere tractor. i loved that tractor. I remember it was a model B from the late 40's. It ran like a champ. It was my first off road vehicle.


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## bandit.45

I used to work on my uncles farm and he had a big old John Deere 4020 tractor that we used for everything: plowing, disking, cultipacking...I loved that tractor. It had power steering and drove like a Cadillac. 

Good memories recharge your spirit don't they?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> I used to work on my uncles farm and he had a big old John Deere 4020 tractor that we used for everything: plowing, disking, cultipacking...I loved that tractor. It had power steering and drove like a Cadillac.
> 
> Good memories recharge your spirit don't they?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When I was a teenager I worked on various local farms growing up. I remember baling hay, alfalfa, straw, etc. Hot hard work. one guy I worked for had a large chicken house, an orchard, and fields of hay, etc. He was the dumbest farmer I ever worked for. He inherited the farm from his wife's father (he never farmed) and he worked full time in law enforcement. One day after a rain he baled alfalfa and it was wet. He drove the tractor with two wagons and I was 16. His son and another kid were 14 and I had to do it all. I was jumping from wagon to wagon, stacking and he finally stopped and said to his son and the other kid, Mac will not last much longer if you don't help. We got back to the barn with two wagons loaded and he wanted to put it in the barn. I remember telling him that it is too wet to put in the barn. So we stacked it outside and went back to the field for another load. By the end of the day it was smoltering. We had fires caused by spontaneous combustion in barns when hay gets wet. We tore down the stack. If he had put it in the barn who knows what would have happened. 

Both my grandparents farmed and several of my dad's brothers had dairy farms. All the family farms were sold for developement about 10 years ago. One farm was in the family since the 1700's. I have a lot of good memories on those farms with the outhouses and sear's catalogs for TP. Lol.


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## bandit.45

My people were cowboys and miners mostly. 

I knew a guy in Elfrida, Arizona who had a grain silo and he got behind on hois payments and the bank foreclosed. They kicked him and his family out one day, but refused to let him clean the corn out of the silo. Well about a year later the corn was rotting fast enough where it caught fire. The silo went up in flames and took out the big barn and three or four outbuildings with it. The value of the property dropped accordingly. I smile when I think the bank didn't make a dime off foreclosing and reselling his farm. Justice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> My people were cowboys and miners mostly.
> 
> I knew a guy in Elfrida, Arizona who had a grain silo and he got behind on hois payments and the bank foreclosed. They kicked him and his family out one day, but refused to let him clean the corn out of the silo. Well about a year later the corn was rotting fast enough where it caught fire. The silo went up in flames and took out the big barn and three or four outbuildings with it. The value of the property dropped accordingly. I smile when I think the bank didn't make a dime off foreclosing and reselling his farm. Justice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or stupidity. My oldest BIL called me and asked me to send him our bank statements and he would like to have the recording. He said my midle SIL and younger BIL just can't believe my WS is lying to them. My WS has cried to them that I cut off money to her. So I sent the bank statements showing she still has access and is spending money and withdrew money as of the 18th. I will send the recording tonight. He says he wants to use this to unite the rest of the family and show that my WS is lying. I said this is getting old fast. I said I have 3 1/2 years of emails from my WS where she has done nothing but blasted her family. I have numorous emails where she says her middle sister is nuts, hateful, etc. Plus dozens of emails where she blasts all her brothers and her older sister. Now her middle sister and her are close again according to her. 

My WS is crazy. My oldest BIL said that again today. He says all she is doing is blasting me and then when she talks about herself he says she sounds nuts. He talked to my middle SIL today for a long time and this is what she said, that Mac has been mean for over two years, but our sister talks nuts when she starts talking about herself. My oldest BIL said to his middle sister, don't you get it? Mac found out our sister was cheating on him and you have to take this is perspective. The middle sister said why did he have to check on her, why the gps and why the recording? That was so wrong. My BIL said he laughed at her and said are you nuts. Any normal person who experienced what Mac did would do the same thing. He said stop going along with our sister. He said why didn't our sister say, Mac put a gps on me, track me I will show you that I am not doing anything wrong. He said she is mad at being caught and you are buying it because Mac was mad when he found out stuff. He told his middle sister to knock it off, wake up and stop blaming Mac. He said our sister is still doing stuff and you are letting her off the hook by focusing on Mac. She is lying to you and you are believing her. You say she is nuts on one hand and on the other you are saying it is Mac's fault because he was checking on her. 

I am tired of my WS's lies and I will send them whatever they want. I have nothing to hide.

I have my reasons to cooperate with the family as I have said in an earlier post. She was trying to get money from her millionaire younger brother and was lying to him. And he sees it but is still in denial. The bank statement and the recording will end it.

It is getting brighter and she is not going to like it.


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## bandit.45

She's been playing this game for years huh?

What do think about the possibility of her having BPD?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

bandit.45 said:


> She's been playing this game for years huh?
> 
> What do think about the possibility of her having BPD?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She does kinda sound like she could be one of my people. I can't recall, has she ever been violent?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

pidge70 said:


> She does kinda sound like she could be one of my people. I can't recall, has she ever been violent?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Never violent.


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## Acabado

She doesn't displays fear of abandonement either.


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> She's been playing this game for years huh?
> 
> What do think about the possibility of her having BPD?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Possible. Very manipulative and now she has been exposed. On second thought I don't think BPD would fit my WS. Kind of a long day but typically you see some other behaviors like potential suicide and self harm in BPD


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## bandit.45

pidge70 said:


> She does kinda sound like she could be one of my people. I can't recall, has she ever been violent?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Does BPD always have a violence component pidge?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

Acabado said:


> She doesn't displays fear of abandonement either.


Not sure what she is thinking. She knows things are not looking good.


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## bandit.45

Or she just assumes she's going to take you to the cleaners in the D.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

She doesn't sound as "I hate you, please, don't leave me".
She fake "all is fine" with you while she badmouths you. She sounds emotionaly stable, consistent, no wild mood swings (before being caught, of course).


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## pidge70

Acabado said:


> She doesn't displays fear of abandonement either.


I don't have an abandonment fear either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

bandit.45 said:


> Does BPD always have a violence component pidge?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

Acabado said:


> She doesn't sound as "I hate you, please, don't leave me".
> She fake "all is fine" with you while she badmouths you. She sounds emotionaly stable, consistent, no wild mood swings (before being caught, of course).


I could be "normal" for periods of time as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

When I got home last night my special needs son got in my face using the F bomb. He wants to do something this weekend and I will not be around and he demanded I tell him what I was doing and where I am going. I said, I can't say. He cursed me out and slammed the door. 

Then this morning he threatened me. I told him I love him and am praying for him and he said, Dad, you are going to regret this and he was cleansing his fists. My son is not strong and I will not fight him. I know for him he prayed that our marriage would work out and he is mad at God for what is taking place. He just wants me to forgive his mother and he wants things to be as they were. He has no clue as to "how they were". My wife was in the next room and did not say a thing.

Several weeks ago when my son and WS was at her brother's in Maryland my son called me and was going off on his mother calling her a slu* and I could hear my WS telling him, "thanks, just what I need right now, etc". I told him to show love to his mother and give her respect and don't give her trouble.

My WS shares stuff with my son and I don't. He is just reflecting his mother's anger and what she has been feeding him.

I have no anger just pity. My son told me last night that he sold his soul to Satan as he was cursing me out. I said, "How much did he pay you?" His responce was 666. Unreal. At least his head did not start spining nor did he vomit.

He threatened to shoot me weeks ago and I got rid of all my guns, my neighbor has them.

My middle BIL told me after I sent them a text that this is serious.

I am leaving Friday to spend time at my other home. Problem there is we have tenants and my youngest son has plans. So I will just sleep in the basement and maybe visit some friends.


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## survivorwife

Thorburn said:


> When I got home last night my special needs son got in my face using the F bomb. He wants to do something this weekend and I will not be around and he demanded I tell him what I was doing and where I am going. I said, I can't say. He cursed me out and slammed the door.
> 
> Then this morning he threatened me. I told him I love him and am praying for him and he said, Dad, you are going to regret this and he was cleansing his fists. My son is not strong and I will not fight him. I know for him he prayed that our marriage would work out and he is mad at God for what is taking place. He just wants me to forgive his mother and he wants things to be as they were. He has no clue as to "how they were". My wife was in the next room and did not say a thing.
> 
> Several weeks ago when my son and WS was at her brother's in Maryland my son called me and was going off on his mother calling her a slu* and I could hear my WS telling him, "thanks, just what I need right now, etc". I told him to show love to his mother and give her respect and don't give her trouble.
> 
> My WS shares stuff with my son and I don't. He is just reflecting his mother's anger and what she has been feeding him.
> 
> I have no anger just pity. My son told me last night that he sold his soul to Satan as he was cursing me out. I said, "How much did he pay you?" His responce was 666. Unreal. At least his head did not start spining nor did he vomit.
> 
> He threatened to shoot me weeks ago and I got rid of all my guns, my neighbor has them.
> 
> My middle BIL told me after I sent them a text that this is serious.
> 
> I am leaving Friday to spend time at my other home. Problem there is we have tenants and my youngest son has plans. So I will just sleep in the basement and maybe visit some friends.


Thorburn, I have to ask you a question, and I sincerely hope that you take the question in the spirit that it is intended as I obviously do not know the nature of your son's "special needs", however, as a parent, I find his behavior extremely disturbing.

The question is, why do you allow yourself to be disrespected in your own home?

You see, I have a step-son with emotional "issues" due to the abandonment of his bio-mother when he was a child. He is grown now, but to this day has not been able to move forward with his life emotionally. Sometimes (rarely now) he loses his temper. On those rare occasions, I immediately treat him as I would a "normal" person, telling him that "I will NOT be disrespected in my own home and he would best reign it in". Now I'm a petite woman and am not capable of a physical altercation, but my response to him works well at that particular heated moment, and later (when he is calm) we address the issue that "set him off".

I do understand from what you have written previous, that your son does indeed also have "emotional issues". I am concerned with the way your WS uses this against you, but my biggest concern is you and your safety. Is there any way possible that you could "reign him in" when his temper gets the best of him? Is there a point (when he is calmer) that you could explain and/or discuss the issues with him calmly so that maybe he could see some room in himself to learn self-control? Is there any hope at all that you can reach his heart and maybe change his direction? This current "direction" is not good for either of you.

I know that you have a lot to deal with at this time and I simply fear that this son may reach a point of "out-of-control" before you are able to address his concerns. I know he is worried about his parents, but somehow can you reach his heart and convince him that his temper is not the answer?


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## turnera

I also think you may need to step up the leadership role a bit here, with him. The more vociferous he gets, the calmer you get, but that may not be what he needs from you.


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## Thorburn

I took him out to doniin donuts last week and he cursed me out and then calmed down and we had a nice evening. In the past my WS and I would handle him together, we would be on the same page.

I truely believe my wife thinks I am going to go off like I did last year and is allowing my son to attack me to goad me to anger. I am trying to find someone to take him for a while but nothing has worked out. He does not want to leave. He says he is here for his mother. She is feeding him crap and it has been serving her purpose. My youngest son has tried to talk to him but he has gotten no where. My BILs want to talk to him but he says they are the enemy as they have turned on his mother. My WS said to her youngest brother that I have brain washed my youngest son and her brothers. The reality is they do not believe her lies and will not put up with her behavior.

My oldest son and WS are full of rage and are feeding each other. I found the best way to work with folks like this and I just had some recent refresher training here at the center on Monday, is to speak calmly, watch for signs of escalation, have an exit strategy if things get out of hand and try to redirect the person with calm speech. I am getting out of there this weekend. As far as the disrespect without my WS on my side and her feeding it it will continue and I have to remain calm. This agression towards me is new, he typical threatens self harm. So I am very concerned.


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## bandit.45

Yeah get out of Dodge bro. You can get some rest and your ww can do ....whatever. 

Don't be afraid to call the cops on your son if he gets violent. Special needs people don't get a free pass to be abusive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## survivorwife

Thorburn said:


> I took him out to doniin donuts last week and he cursed me out and then calmed down and we had a nice evening. In the past my WS and I would handle him together, we would be on the same page.
> 
> I truely believe my wife thinks I am going to go off like I did last year and is allowing my son to attack me to goad me to anger. I am trying to find someone to take him for a while but nothing has worked out. He does not want to leave. He says he is here for his mother. She is feeding him crap and it has been serving her purpose. My youngest son has tried to talk to him but he has gotten no where. My BILs want to talk to him but he says they are the enemy as they have turned on his mother. My WS said to her youngest brother that I have brain washed my youngest son and her brothers. The reality is they do not believe her lies and will not put up with her behavior.
> 
> My oldest son and WS are full of rage and are feeding each other. I found the best way to work with folks like this and I just had some recent refresher training here at the center on Monday, is to speak calmly, watch for signs of escalation, have an exit strategy if things get out of hand and try to redirect the person with calm speech. I am getting out of there this weekend. As far as the disrespect without my WS on my side and her feeding it it will continue and I have to remain calm. This agression towards me is new, he typical threatens self harm. So I am very concerned.


I completely understand the need to stay calm, but I also see a need to be "firm". To set a line that just doesn't get crossed. Do you have the ability to be firm without getting angry? I ask because some people do and some don't. Your strategy, while basically sound, doesn't cover the need to set boundaries, to communicate with your son that there is a line in the sand that doesn't get crossed and that line is called "disrespect".

The penalty for crossing that line is "dismissed". The discussion is over. It's not a retreat on your part (exit strategy) as much as it is a dismissal of the attitude he has taken to address you. Once he gets the message that you will not tolerate being disrespected and his words from that point on carry no weight with you so you will no longer listen to his rant (as opposed to appearing afraid of him) then the result is generally a response (within his own mind) that he has indeed crossed a line. None of which reflects anger on your part or requires you to lose your temper.

My step-son was surprised at this approach. No anger from me. No lashing out. Just simply raised my voice, told him I will not tolerate THAT attitude, and went on and did other things. He stood there speechless and sulking for a bit as he learned that he cannot control me with his temper. He had no choice but to calm down and think about what just happened, and when he was ready, we talked normal about what was bothering him.

The point is, you are the parent. He is not. He doesn't get to dictate to and/or threaten you. You do not have to put up with this and most importantly, you are teaching him that this aggressive behavior will not work with you.

As for your WS, if you can find the ability to regain control of your son's attitude and demeanor, she will have one less weapon in her arsenal to control/hurt you with.


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## turnera

survivorwife said:


> I completely understand the need to stay calm, but I also see a need to be "firm".


This is what I meant. There should be a consequence for acting out, no matter how old he is. Has he had any?

btw, my mom's best friend had a son like yours. He lived with her, she tried to appease him all the time, to make life easier. He eventually got so out of control (and violent) that she had to take him somewhere else to live - some sort of facility, as she could no longer take care of him without herself being in danger.


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## Shoshan1290

Thorburn said:


> Possible. Very manipulative and now she has been exposed. On second thought I don't think BPD would fit my WS. Kind of a long day but typically you see some other behaviors like potential suicide and self harm in BPD


If I were you I would be hesitant to jump on the mental illness bandwagon. Far too often people justify their bad behavior with a "mental illness" of some sort.

Mental illness doesn't excuse cheating, so even if she was mentally ill all of her cheating, bad behavior, manipulation, and drama would still be her responsibility, and her responsibility alone.

People are more comfortable taking the "I'm so sick" path than they are in taking responsibility. Go figure.


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## Thorburn

I had my son committed in 2011 when he got out of control with booze and was involved with the girl. Typically my WS and I would stand firm. right now she is letting him blast me. There is no us, it is just me. If my son did this to my WS I would tell him to knock it off. 

I almost replied to him when he said he sold his soul to Satan so you joined your mother, but I thought better of it.

My oldest BIL called me and said Mac get the money for the divorce, how ever you can you can't be living like this and my sister is getting away with too much. 

All I need is a money tree.


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## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> I had my son committed in 2011 when he got out of control with booze and was involved with the girl. Typically my WS and I would stand firm. right now she is letting him blast me. There is no us, it is just me. If my son did this to my WS I would tell him to knock it off.
> 
> I almost replied to him when he said he sold his soul to Satan so you joined your mother, but I thought better of it.
> 
> My oldest BIL called me and said Mac get the money for the divorce, how ever you can you can't be living like this and my sister is getting away with too much.
> 
> *All I need is a money tree*.


I heard they grow those along the seashore near Yuma, Arizona.


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> I heard they grow those along the seashore near Yuma, Arizona.


I can get round trip flights for about $1200.00. I will be arriving Friday. Lol. Wish it was true. Never been to Yuma. Looks nice.


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## Thorburn

My former room mates invited me to their art show tonight so I have something to do. My co-worker wants to hire me to do work on her home. She and her husband are not handy and they have lots of work. So they will start having me over after Easter to start working.

Funny my co-workers are concerned that I have lost so much weight that they are bringing in food for me. Yesterday pulled pork today a spanish dish. All I know is every pair of pants I have are way too big. I do eat a good breakfast and a small meal in the evening. But I feel good. 

Talked to my youngest son for quite a while. He does not want to talk to his mother but I can tell he is hurt that she does not call him. He knows she has the land line and said, dad I don't want to talk to mom but she use to call me and ask about what I am doing. He said it is strange that she said to him weeks ago about how great her brothers are and that she will only talk to her family and my son. He said, dad, she does not talk to me or her two older brothers and all she is doing is lying. I talked to him about the money she has been spending. He said dad, in one day she took out almost $200.00 at various locations, she must be using the money for hotels.

He said he talked to my oldest son the other day and he said he thought he got through to him about their mother and how evil she is. He said he is surprised at how he is treating me. He said Mom must have talked to him and is feeding him lies.

My youngest son wants to go down this weekend and have him and me talk to his youngest uncle my wife's youngest brother. I think it may help my son.

He said his mother is so lost and did not flinch when I told him his uncles want me to get money to divorce his mother as soon as I can. 

He is a great kid.


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## CantSitStill

Things will get better for you in time, glad you have friends that need work done, good timing for extra money 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> I can get round trip flights for about $1200.00. I will be arriving Friday. Lol. Wish it was true. Never been to Yuma. Looks nice.


Its a dump.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator

bandit.45 said:


> I heard they grow those along the seashore near Yuma, Arizona.


Damn, Bandit! I drove through there some years ago and must have missed it!

And as hot as it was on that day, I could have stood to have spent some time on that beach of yours with an ice-cold


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## bandit.45

Yuma does get hot, but the worst town in Arizona is Parker, a hundred miles or so north of Yuma along the Colorado River. I was there in '88 when it hit 119 degrees.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

I correct myself: lake Havasu City hit 128 in 1994.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## illwill

Thor, if your child needed a operation next week or he'd die, could you find the money? You are in a desperate situation and you need to have a sense of urgency about leaving this woman.


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## Shaggy

Her family would do well to hire a PI and break up her rendezvous.


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## bandit.45

Thorburn you may have mentioned this before, but how many of her family members have heard the recording?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Thorburn you may have mentioned this before, but how many of her family members have heard the recording?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


None. I have to send it to them


The two oldest BIL talked to me today and they say divorce her she is out of control, beg, borrow whatever it takes, divorce her.

they want me to confront her about the money. If I get a chance I will. 

I was at a party tonight with my former roommates. They had an art show, man there is talent out there. They had live bands. I had two beers. It was nice. I was the old guy. Kids from 16 to about 30. It was fun.


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## bandit.45

Why haven't you released the recording at least to the oldest BIL? Are you wanting to control how it is disseminated? Or is it shame holding you back?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator

Shaggy said:


> Her family would do well to hire a PI and break up her rendezvous.


Shag: From the family's standpoint, I would greatly think that that would be a whole lot like throwing money down into a deep, dry hole; that it wouldn't have any discernible effect on that woman in the least!

She is what she has so obviously defined herself to be!


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Why haven't you released the recording at least to the oldest BIL? Are you wanting to control how it is disseminated? Or is it shame holding you back?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The recording is illegal. So I did not want to send it. I don't care at this point so I will send it. My attorney told me it is illegal but so what, these things don't go anywhere.

That is the reason. So yes I will send it. Also my older BIL is in the hospital getting tests and he is not well. He may have cancer. I know what he may have to go through and it is not life threatening at this point as he has related it to me. It is in the early stage and may be curable, the type they think he has.


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## bandit.45

I wasn't saying you were afraid to send it, or too proud to. Now I understand your reasoning. I for one disagree with the lawyer. I think since it was recorded in a vehicle you own that it is perfectly legal. Whether or not it can be used as evidence in court is another matter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> I wasn't saying you were afraid to send it, or too proud to. Now I understand your reasoning. I for one disagree with the lawyer. I think since it was recorded in a vehicle you own that it is perfectly legal. Whether or not it can be used as evidence in court is another matter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was told by other attorneys as well that it is illegal but rarely do courts pursue it even when a complaint is filed. My attorney says we have enough to prove adultery without the recording and he said he will threaten to expose it all if they push back. He said typically they back down quickly. He said the recording can't be used. 

I did speak to my WS about the bank account this morning. She was calm. She lied about some things and dismissed others. I told her I will not support her immoral lifestyle and sin and will be stopping her from using her card for our account. I told her she has not contributed her checks. Her reply was I paid for the cable. I showed her that I paid almost $3000. in bills since March 1st. She mentioned that I can't legally open up another account and cut her off. I did not want to argue and said yes I can. She said if we had the $300.00 that I took we would be fine. I told her what i have done with the money and she said she wanted a copy of the bank statements and I said I will see that she gets a copy. I said you spent money on your car to keep living in sin. All she said was the axles needed replaced and that they gave her a lifetime warrenty. I said the car may not last this year, it is not going to be running much longer and it did not need axles at this time. I said we would have $2000.00 if you had not spent the money and she said that she needs money to live and see friends. I said you are spending money on gas going places you need not go to and I listed some of the places. She said, I was out shopping for a cheap place to buy groceries. I said, you been out of state, and hours away, looking for cheap groceries, spending over $100.00 on gas and you come back with no groceries, when we have a cheap place a block away. I said that is where I buy groceries. She said that place is not good. She said look at the toilet paper you bought. This is the reason I don't want to talk to her. She spins it and is fairly good at it. 

She then said that she repented and turned back to Christ. I said, really, it does not show. She said she is talking to Christians and they are helping her. I said like your GF. I said you need to turn to God because you are not showing any remorse. It did not get heated and these words were said in a calm manner, but I felt myself getting angry and I went downstairs.

I texted my pastor and BILs. My one BIL called me and the other one has texted me as well as my pastor. The pastor said believe her very carefully and with caution. My two BILs said continue with the divorce. She is not showing repentance at all. That this is fake. They said why did not she say she was sorry to you? they both said, why doesn't she make things right with you if she repented? They both said she is still playing her game.

All she will do is spin this her way.

This morning after she said she repented and turned to Christ she started talking about things I am doing wrong. Not spending time with our son who is in pain over this, taking $300.00 when we need it (I explained to her what I spent the money on), justifying her spending, me blasting her to people, and thinking I am better then her. That is when I told her to again repent and I walked away.

I must admit that she remained calm and I was getting heated.

I am hoping that she does soften for the divorce and if we can mediate it, it will save me a bunch of money.


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## SaltInWound

There doesn't need to be money for anything outside of bills. She needs to stay home and deal with being broke. Let her friends come to her. She isn't even good at lying.


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## strugglinghusband

Thorburn I understand why you feel you need to engage with her, but why do you? it seems like no matter what you have or her siblings or your sons she will spin it off to suit her, believing her own lies, fairy tail...
No matter who confronts her with the truth and no matter the evidence presented over and over,She will not see what she dosent want to see..


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## Shaggy

You know how she's going to go with the D, and it won't include easy mediation.


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## Thorburn

strugglinghusband said:


> Thorburn I understand why you feel you need to engage with her, but why do you? it seems like no matter what you have or her siblings or your sons she will spin it off to suit her, believing her own lies, fairy tail...
> No matter who confronts her with the truth and no matter the evidence presented over and over,She will not see what she dosent want to see..


Honestly I don't feel the need to engage her. My pastor and her brothers asked me to go over the money situation with hersince she was lying about it and to show her what she has spent and what I am doing with the money. I really did not want to do it. Seriously, I really don't want to engage her at all.

I do most of what they ask me. I think in their minds they want to see her responce since she is not talking to them to hear what her explaination is. 

I am hoping that this is the last of them asking me. Even though it is coming from me reporting what is going on they believe me.


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## karole

Thorburn, If I may be so bold, I don't think it is right for your wife's family to ask you to do the things they are. It is only bringing more pain into your life and hindering your healing. It's okay to say no. Take care of yourself.


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## Numb-badger

I agree. You're doing really well mate, get ready to say no when you've done. There is no further point in letting her get under your skin, because we all know that she is trying to do so.

Stay strong man


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## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> This morning after she said she repented and turned to Christ she started talking about things I am doing wrong. Not spending time with our son who is in pain over this, taking $300.00 when we need it (I explained to her what I spent the money on), justifying her spending, me blasting her to people, and thinking I am better then her. *That is when I told her to again repent and I walked away.*
> I must admit that she remained calm and I was getting heated.


Thorburn I'm gonna call you on this. Please take this in the spirit in which I mean it:

As one recovering Baptist to another, you really need to quit saying stuff like this to her. It comes off as preachy and, given that she has firsthand knowledge of your past porn use and alcohol abuse, it also comes off as hypocritical.

Of course you are not a hypocrite, but in her mind she is looking for every justification she can to villify you. You are not doing yourself any favors by going all John Knox on her.

Let her pastor, your pastor or any other minister lay this language on her. Her spiritual condition is none of your concern anymore. This is part and parcel of what we have all been telling you: you need to detach. You need to quit doing the dirty work for her siblings and let her family deal with her issues. You need to detach and un-couple from this runaway train heading for the collapsed trellis.


----------



## Affaircare

:iagree: Right I agree with bandit here. When a marriage is breaking up, and the loyal spouse has confronted the disloyal and the DS just hardens their heart and refuses to stop.... I generally recommend that the LS learn one phrase and just repeat it: 

*"Oh are you willing to end your adultery and give 100% of your affection and loyalty only to me? Are you willing to make it right with me? You're not? Okay bye! Talk to me when you are." *... and then WALK AWAY. 

That is disengaging. 

Thorburn, seriously, your relationship with your STBX should be heading toward being like the relationship you have with the lady at the bank. Do you listen to the lady at the bank's siblings or family? Do you share funds with the lady at the bank "because she needs it"? Do you tell the lady at the bank where to buy her groceries? Do you tell the lady at the bank that she needs to repent? 

NOPE!

Know why? Because she (the lady at the bank) does not mean something to you. You're life is not entangled with hers. You don't tell her what to do or how to live her life or even care whether she's moral or not, because she is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. 

And eventually that is where your STBX should be in your life. IF she doesn't have money for groceries, well she's a grown woman and responsible for her life. SHE can figure out a way to take care of that. If her car breaks down, well she's a grown woman and responsible for her life. SHE can figure out a way to take care of that. If her son is mad at her, that is her relationship with him--she's a grown woman and responsible for her life. SHE can figure out a way to take care of that. If she needs internet, a laptop, a cell phone or anything...she's a grown woman and responsible for her life. SHE can figure out a way to take care of that!

Make sense?

I know you think you have a plan for when and how to execute the time of some of this, but I would STRONGLY, *STRONGLY *encourage you to bravely make the moves necessary to separate finances. Allow her to be responsible for her own bills and her own needs, and stop putting yourself in the position of having to provide things for her. Honestly, from what I can see, it looks like you are holding onto the idea that she needs you as a moral influence in her life, like God needs you to be there in order to work on her heart, and like you have to be the one to take care of her and make sure she _______ (insert "stops what she's doing" "repents" "stops lying" "works things out with her family" "has food to eat" etc.) That's not your job anymore. Time to turn her over to God, because now that's HER job and HIS job....not yours. You're stepping on toes!

Thorburn, part of this journey for you is letting her go. I mean ... LET GO. She fired you. For years and years you felt responsible for her like a husband would feel toward his wife, but she fired you from that position. And my brother, our God is not so small that if you leave her life, He will be cut off from her now and be unable to work in her!! God has any number of ways of showing her what she's doing is wrong and bringing her back to Him...any number of people and events at His control. Plus, it is conceivable that she may know what she's doing is wrong and she CHOOSES to not stop! 

Thor you need to stop holding onto it.


----------



## bandit.45

Affaircare nailed it. I wish they had a MEGALIKE button.


----------



## Affaircare

Your wish is my command. :lol: :rofl:


----------



## bandit.45

Affaircare said:


> Your wish is my command. :lol: :rofl:


Gloryhound! :rofl:


----------



## Affaircare

They like me! They MEGA LIKE me!  lol


----------



## Thorburn

Weird. I get home and my WS comes down and hands me cash. Saying it was for one of her trips to meet with a GF. I handed her the bank statement. She said, "I am working more hours, doing slave work on some days for $10 an hour and I will be working four to five days a week to help with the money and we sold a table and chairs at the antique business". I saw a letter on our dining room table and saw it was from a friend. I opened it and there was a check for $500.00. I showed it to my WS and said, I still love you, and she took the check looked at who it was from. She started crying and walked away and went outside. She took the trash out, got some cereal and is still crying. She was hanging out downstairs and still is.

When I got home my wife also stated that our son is mad and is listening to satanic music and that is when she gave me the money.

I went into my room after she went outside and there was a note from my son about a church he found locally that he said he will be attending. He came down and was talking about this church (Assembly of God) and how he wants to go to it. He use to attend one back home. He was involved in that church for about 5 years. Long story but when the pastor left the new staff did not welcome him so he stopped going. 

I don't know what they put in the water today but this is weird. My WS is still hanging out down here instead of in her room and I can hear her sniffles. 

Now she is taking a bath. 

My son came in my room and asked me to look at the church's website. So we looked at it together.

Call me stupid but what the heck is going on here? I never did acid in the 60's but this is one weird trip.


----------



## vi_bride04

*Re: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



Affaircare said:


> They like me! They MEGA LIKE me!  lol


Because your advice, insight and experience REALLY help people out

I know you have personally helped me through my struggles...and I am so thankful that there are people out there like you who truly care enough to help strangers.

Thank you - I think your 2x4s have helped me the most

Keep up the good work


----------



## Acabado

Smoke and mirrors is what's happening man.


----------



## bandit.45

You've fallen down the rabbit hole.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

Acabado said:


> Smoke and mirrors is what's happening man.


Smoke and mirrors by Mark Kroos playing a double neck guitar. Pretty cool video.


Mark Kroos-Smoke & Mirrors - YouTube


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> You've fallen down the rabbit hole.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:fro:lympic1:


----------



## Thorburn

Affaircare said:


> They like me! They MEGA LIKE me!  lol



:allhail:


----------



## tdwal

Thorburn said:


> Weird. I get home and my WS comes down and hands me cash. Saying it was for one of her trips to meet with a GF. I handed her the bank statement. She said, "I am working more hours, doing slave work on some days for $10 an hour and I will be working four to five days a week to help with the money and we sold a table and chairs at the antique business". I saw a letter on our dining room table and saw it was from a friend. I opened it and there was a check for $500.00. I showed it to my WS and said, I still love you, and she took the check looked at who it was from. She started crying and walked away and went outside. She took the trash out, got some cereal and is still crying. She was hanging out downstairs and still is.
> 
> When I got home my wife also stated that our son is mad and is listening to satanic music and that is when she gave me the money.
> 
> I went into my room after she went outside and there was a note from my son about a church he found locally that he said he will be attending. He came down and was talking about this church (Assembly of God) and how he wants to go to it. He use to attend one back home. He was involved in that church for about 5 years. Long story but when the pastor left the new staff did not welcome him so he stopped going.
> 
> I don't know what they put in the water today but this is weird. My WS is still hanging out down here instead of in her room and I can hear her sniffles.
> 
> Now she is taking a bath.
> 
> My son came in my room and asked me to look at the church's website. So we looked at it together.
> 
> Call me stupid but what the heck is going on here? I never did acid in the 60's but this is one weird trip.


Perhaps God is looking after you.


----------



## bandit.45

So is Affaircare our Queen of Hearts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

tdwal said:


> Perhaps God is looking after you.


I think God has been looking after Thorburn for a long time.....


----------



## bandit.45

happyman64 said:


> I think God has been looking after Thorburn for a long time.....


Yep. 

Now Thorburn just needs to get out of God's way and let God take care of his WW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Ding ding ding! You nailed it, Bandit

Darn how did you get so wise? When did that happen


----------



## happyman64

Affaircare said:


> Ding ding ding! You nailed it, Bandit
> 
> Darn how did you get so wise? When did that happen


Go ahead Bandit.

Tell us how you got so wise???

I really wanna know....

I am all 👂s.


----------



## bandit.45

Affaircare said:


> Ding ding ding! You nailed it, Bandit
> 
> Darn how did you get so wise? When did that happen


Thanks a lot. 

Guess I'm Tweedledum huh?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

Bandit had to get wise after what his ex put him through
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Why did Yosemite Sam pop into my mind?


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## bandit.45

chapparal said:


> Why did Yosemite Sam pop into my mind?


Dadnab varmint!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

My WS came down this morning and handed me the bank statement with her explanations written on it as to where she spent the money. She has been complaining to her younger brother and middle sister that I cut her off from money. Another lie. She saw what I spent since March 1st, over $3000.00 on bills and less then $300 for me. She saw that I spent money on gas, groceries, and few other items for myself. Part of her explanation is pure BS but I did not engage her on that. She then told me what she is doing to bring money into the house for bills. She said I need to get my truck fixed and explained why she got her Jeep fixed. BS, but neither here or there at this point.

She was fairly calm, shaking a little bit and looking very sad (not angry). I truely believe that she had convinced herself that I have been spending money on non-sense when I proved the opposite and showed her that she is doing what she is claiming I did. I believe also that this gave her a dose of reality.

I feel more comfortable talking about money issues with her and I will see if she continues to share her money. If she does we can make it through this financial crisis and it will help me in the end. I can start putting money aside like her brother suggested for D.

I may not have followed the advice given to me in some areas but the fact that I did not cut her off may prove to be beneficial in the long run. She is selling a table on Saturday that we refinished, for a few hundred bucks (bought the table for $20.00) and may be selling a bench I made as well for over $300.00. She also refinished a table for a lady and she is out of town and will pick it up in a week or so. With my WS saying she is working more days and more hours we shall see.

Her stupidity in what she had done to us financially I honestly believe is haunting her. 

When I handed over the $500.00 check to her yesterday from my friend and said here, I think that also changed her outlook. She gave it back to me to deposit. She can't argue or complain that I cut her off and sees that I am staying focused, not drinking, not raging. 

My goal is to have her heart soften


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## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> My goal is to have her heart soften


Why?


----------



## Acabado

bandit.45 said:


> Why?


Exactly!
Why, why, why?


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Why?


For a better D. If she softens and she will start talking to her family it will go better for me. If I had gone through the D while she is in her anger mode she will take me for all she can. If she softens I am hoping she will take it easier on me.


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## survivorwife

Thorburn said:


> For a better D. If she softens and she will start talking to her family it will go better for me. If I had gone through the D while she is in her anger mode *she will take me for all she can. * If she softens I am hoping she will take it easier on me.


All she can = 50% of the marital assets.

If she is in a good mood = 50% of the marital assets.

If she is angry = no more than 50% of the marital assets.

The only thing that will make it easier for you is when the two of you are no longer living under the same roof.


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## karole

survivorwife said:


> All she can = 50% of the marital assets.
> 
> If she is in a good mood = 50% of the marital assets.
> 
> If she is angry = no more than 50% of the marital assets.
> 
> The only thing that will make it easier for you is when the two of you are no longer living under the same roof.


AGREED! Another thing that will make it easier is to not have her family trying to get you to communicate with her. Sit down and come up with a list of all your bills, if you have already done that, then good. Give your wife a copy and tell her she is responsible for half. You should not be struggling to pay everything when the bills are as much her responsibility as they are yours.


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## Thorburn

survivorwife said:


> All she can = 50% of the marital assets.
> 
> If she is in a good mood = 50% of the marital assets.
> 
> If she is angry = no more than 50% of the marital assets.
> 
> The only thing that will make it easier for you is when the two of you are no longer living under the same roof.


It is actually 40%. It can be less if she agrees. If we mediate it will fairly inexpensive. If we mediate and use the same attorney it will even be cheaper. the formula/s that they use here in our state are fairly straight forward but complex at the same time. The end result is typically the main bread winner ends up with 60% and the spouse ends up with 40%. The non main bread winner can request that "the master" considers a lesser amount. The Master is an attorney who makes the decision. If an agreement can't be reached then a judge gets involved and it costs more. But if you mediate then every thing is on the table and one can ask for more or less. If my WS would say she only wanted 10% I don't think that would fly but she does have the option to ask for less.

When I file my WS can ask for spousal support. If I am paying all the bills (like I am) and my attorney presents adultery (which we will do) then typically spousal support is denied. We win the battle but will lose the war because adultery will play a very small role in the final D. A is one of 17 considerations that is considered in D. Being in a long term M A will not play much of a role.

Alimoney is another thing. My WS will get it, but how much will depend on the judge or what we decide, is my WS agrees to the terms. In some cases alimoney is not paid. Alimoney is normally not long term as the courts here want the other party to find full time work and they push for that. Long term alimoney is typically paid when the parties are married long term and they are elderly.

If my wife softens my youngest son and her brothers will push for her to ask for less. My son said, Dad I will make sure mom does not ruin you. Right now they are not talking. If my WS comes to some type of senses and owns what she did, I do see the possibility of her asking for less. 

My actions have so far gotten a committment from her to start giving me money. I got $19.00 from her yesterday and it was her tip money. Not much but it was a start and she said she will be bringing in more money for the bills.


----------



## bandit.45

I'm beginning to think your in-laws are taking you for a ride. 

I mean, its been a month or so since D-Day, and so far all your in-laws have done is talk, bicker, talk some more, tell you how they are planning to straighten her out, and yet all they have done is throw most of the action on your shoulders. 

I think you need to back waaaaay off this and not expect these people to ride to any kind of rescue. They sound like collective hot gas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

If there is a chance his inlaws can help him, I don't see the point in distancing himself from him at this point. What would be the upside to that?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

chapparal said:


> If there is a chance his inlaws can help him, I don't see the point in distancing himself from him at this point. What would be the upside to that?


Then they should help him instead of brow beating him every time she tells a new story. 

The upside is he stops hearing about the troubles, quits digging into finances, stops sending tapes to others and can start to let go of this drama. He's trying to do the 180 and he keeps getting emotional updates on the "chance" he might get someone to agree with him........maybe.
Edit:
Minus the BIL PAstor(?), TB seems to be triple explaining things to people who waffle, she is their blood family and then he goes right back into a depression.


----------



## Thorburn

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Then they should help him instead of brow beating him every time she tells a new story.
> 
> The upside is he stops hearing about the troubles, quits digging into finances, stops sending tapes to others and can start to let go of this drama. He's trying to do the 180 and he keeps getting emotional updates on the "chance" he might get someone to agree with him........maybe.
> Edit:
> Minus the BIL PAstor(?), TB seems to be triple explaining things to people who waffle, she is their blood family and then he goes right back into a depression.


My two oldest BILs are firm. They are trying to convince the youngest brother. He is the one who can't believe his sister is lying to him. He text me today saying he needs time to think and pray. He is still dealing with the death of his 3 year old from two years ago and finds it hard to believe his sister did this again and again and his brothers know that he is the only sensible person talking to my WS. I have known these guys for over 30 years. He found it unbelievable that she lied to him about me cutting her off. My oldest BIL did not want the bank statement for himself but to show his youngest brother that I am telling the truth. 

My two oldest BILs want their youngest brother to be involved and that is why they are having me jump thru the loops. They don't want her running to him. I am sure my WS had him convinced that I cut off the money and was spending like crazy. They don't care if she runs to her middle sister. She has no money, may very well lose her house, and is unstable. They want all the brothers to be unified before they confront her. Right now they are saying she will not listen to them anyway, as long as she has her younger brother's ear. And the youngest brother is very confused.

This all matters to me. If all three are on the same page, I have a good chance of getting a better settlement. My youngest son is on board. 


If I could I would file. I can't. If she brings in money and gives it to me I can make it. If I would have filed a month ago where would I be? I would have had a angry woman taking me to the cleaners. 

If she breaks she will listen to her brothers. I know her well enough to know that is what she will do. If that happens I will have an opportunity to set things up in my favor. If she breaks and it is like last year it will not last long. 

My oldest BIL has a wedding coming up with his oldest daughter. He has two special needs children. His oldest son can get very violent and his youngest daughter is 8 and is totally dependent on them. She has Rhett syndrome and can't feed herself or care for herself in any way. He has five other children and he is not in the best of health. He is willing to come here to confront his sister.

My middle BIL also has 7 children. His MIL just moved in with them. He is willing to come up here with his wife to confront his sister but feels at this time she will not listen. I think he is right.

So far my action not to cut her off from money has worked in my favor. 

I told my oldest son that I would not be home most of this weekend. I was not planning on being here tonight. My WS called me around 5 P.m. asking me if I was coming home. She has not called me since Feb. 13th. She said she needed help to sell things and needed me to deliver a table tomorrow. I said I will adjust my schedule. She said the folks will pay me to deliver the table.

When I got home my son asked me to take him to church, I did and my wife told me what I have to do tomorrow and what time I have to deliver the table.

Then I will head to my other home and spend some time with my youngest son, spend the night and come back here early on Sunday to take my oldest son to church.

My WS seems to be working hard now on getting money to pay bills. This is a big turn from just three days ago where she was just taking care of herself. 

I got $500 from a friend and if my WS continues to help the big financial burden will be lifted.

This is not ideal but it is the hand I have been dealt at this time and I am playing it and I am not flinching or folding.

My son is not cursing me out and smashing things. My WS is giving me money.

My WS is in the living room watching a ball game. I am not engaging her. She was crying earlier. 

I have to run and pick up my son soon from church.


----------



## Machiavelli

survivorwife said:


> All she can = 50% of the marital assets.
> 
> If she is in a good mood = 50% of the marital assets.
> 
> If she is angry = no more than 50% of the marital assets.
> 
> The only thing that will make it easier for you is when the two of you are no longer living under the same roof.


Last time I checked, the vast majority of states were not community property states. Originally, only the states that were formerly part of the Spanish Empire had com prop and the rest had laws descended from English Common Law.


----------



## Acabado

Would she admit to her brother she was lying about the money? 
She basicaly admited it to you.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Thorburn said:


> My two oldest BILs are firm. They are trying to convince the youngest brother. He is the one who can't believe his sister is lying to him. He text me today saying he needs time to think and pray. He is still dealing with the death of his 3 year old from two years ago and finds it hard to believe his sister did this again and again and his brothers know that he is the only sensible person talking to my WS. I have known these guys for over 30 years. He found it unbelievable that she lied to him about me cutting her off. My oldest BIL did not want the bank statement for himself but to show his youngest brother that I am telling the truth.
> 
> My two oldest BILs want their youngest brother to be involved and that is why they are having me jump thru the loops. They don't want her running to him. I am sure my WS had him convinced that I cut off the money and was spending like crazy. They don't care if she runs to her middle sister. She has no money, may very well lose her house, and is unstable. They want all the brothers to be unified before they confront her. Right now they are saying she will not listen to them anyway, as long as she has her younger brother's ear. And the youngest brother is very confused.
> 
> This all matters to me. If all three are on the same page, I have a good chance of getting a better settlement. My youngest son is on board.
> 
> 
> If I could I would file. I can't. If she brings in money and gives it to me I can make it. If I would have filed a month ago where would I be? I would have had a angry woman taking me to the cleaners.
> 
> If she breaks she will listen to her brothers. I know her well enough to know that is what she will do. If that happens I will have an opportunity to set things up in my favor. If she breaks and it is like last year it will not last long.
> 
> My oldest BIL has a wedding coming up with his oldest daughter. He has two special needs children. His oldest son can get very violent and his youngest daughter is 8 and is totally dependent on them. She has Rhett syndrome and can't feed herself or care for herself in any way. He has five other children and he is not in the best of health. He is willing to come here to confront his sister.
> 
> My middle BIL also has 7 children. His MIL just moved in with them. He is willing to come up here with his wife to confront his sister but feels at this time she will not listen. I think he is right.


I understand why, but nothing you just wrote changes my opinion. I do not know why people think distance means cut them out of your life.

You can only do what you think is best and I can only give you my opinion on how it looks to me.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> .
> My WS seems to be working hard now on getting money to pay bills. This is a big turn from just three days ago where she was just taking care of herself.
> 
> I got $500 from a friend and if my WS continues to help the big financial burden will be lifted.
> 
> This is not ideal but it is the hand I have been dealt at this time and I am playing it and I am not flinching or folding.
> 
> My son is not cursing me out and smashing things. My WS is giving me money.
> 
> My WS is in the living room watching a ball game. I am not engaging her. She was crying earlier.
> 
> I have to run and pick up my son soon from church.


I guess some wars are won on the small victories. I hope you win this war Thorburn.


----------



## Thorburn

Just brought my son home from church. He told me that my WS was crying yesterday saying she feels bad for what she has done. I met the pastor and he is a great guy. I told him what is going on.

My WS looks very sad. My son went up to her room and she agreed to go to church with him on Sunday.


----------



## Thorburn

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I understand why, but nothing you just wrote changes my opinion. I do not know why people think distance means cut them out of your life.
> 
> You can only do what you think is best and I can only give you my opinion on how it looks to me.


And this is what I need. I don't need what my WS got from her friends and counselors. They told her she does not need to answer my questions, she needs to take care of herself, she is not that bad, God loves you just as you are, we are not going to challenge you in any way, we are just here to support you whatever you do.

I don't need butt kissers and I do need a kick in the pants from time to time. 

And I do value your opinion. 

One day I hope to be driving in an RV and dropping off $10,000.00 to each one of you. See the country and pay off a very valuable debt. Bandit, I will give you $10,001.00 and a vanilla ice cream cone from McDonald's. The extra dollar is for you to spend on the $1.00 menu, your choice.


----------



## Hardtohandle

Thorburn said:


> And this is what I need. I don't need what my WS got from her friends and counselors. They told her she does not need to answer my questions, she needs to take care of herself, she is not that bad, God loves you just as you are, we are not going to challenge you in any way, we are just here to support you whatever you do.
> 
> I don't need butt kissers and I do need a kick in the pants from time to time.
> 
> And I do value your opinion.
> 
> One day I hope to be driving in an RV and dropping off $10,000.00 to each one of you. See the country and pay off a very valuable debt. Bandit, I will give you $10,001.00 and a vanilla ice cream cone from McDonald's. The extra dollar is for you to spend on the $1.00 menu, your choice.


I agree on the butt kisser part. No one in my STBXW family would confront her about anything. I was told I know she did wrong but family is family. My wife says no one cares because they have their own issues. 

I said its too bad, lucky my family and friends care enough about me or I would have been dead by now. 

When the WW hears it from you it doesn't make sense, but I believe when they do hear it from someone outside the relationship it makes more senses and rings more true to them. Even if you both said the same exact thing. It just makes more sense coming from someone else. Go figure..


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Thorburn said:


> And this is what I need. I don't need what my WS got from her friends and counselors. They told her she does not need to answer my questions, she needs to take care of herself, she is not that bad, God loves you just as you are, we are not going to challenge you in any way, we are just here to support you whatever you do.
> 
> I don't need butt kissers and I do need a kick in the pants from time to time.
> 
> And I do value your opinion.
> 
> One day I hope to be driving in an RV and dropping off $10,000.00 to each one of you. See the country and pay off a very valuable debt. Bandit, I will give you $10,001.00 and a vanilla ice cream cone from McDonald's. The extra dollar is for you to spend on the $1.00 menu, your choice.


Trust me, you are handling it better than I think I would. I hope you get your wish. Although, that 10,000 would go right back to your children and I do not care if they are adults.


----------



## debster

Thorburn said:


> So far my action not to cut her off from money has worked in my favor.
> 
> ...
> 
> My WS seems to be working hard now on getting money to pay bills. This is a big turn from just three days ago where she was just taking care of herself.
> 
> I got $500 from a friend and if my WS continues to help the big financial burden will be lifted.
> 
> This is not ideal but it is the hand I have been dealt at this time and I am playing it and I am not flinching or folding.
> 
> My son is not cursing me out and smashing things. My WS is giving me money.
> 
> My WS is in the living room watching a ball game. I am not engaging her. She was crying earlier.


It looks to me like she is starting to have a change of heart. I hope it continues and that it comes from being truly remorseful and not just because she has come to the realization that no one is on her side and it is the only thing she can do now (in which case she will reverse her position again later).

You mentioned, Thorburn, that you told her even just recently that you loved her (still). Where is that coming from? Is it brotherly love or still marital love? I worry when you tell her things like that because I fear she may use this against you to catch you in a weak moment. I hope I am wrong but caution you to proceed carefully in this regard. I think you are doing the right thing with respect to the money and transparency on it though.

I state the above because I am human and fallible and know this fallibility exists in others.

Now onto my spiritual thinking. These changes with your oldest son now going to church and your wife now giving you money and appearing remorseful are very encouraging and inspiring contrasted by the negative behaviours they were both exhibiting quite recently. Very dramatic, quite honestly. 

Warms my heart... and I have been praying for you and them, Thorburn.


----------



## Thorburn

I still love my WS deeply. That does not mean I want to take her back.

I made almost $400.00 today. So I am about $900.00 richer since Wednesday and I had to do very little.

I took the special needs man I have been taking care of since 1995 shopping. Our monthly thing. He always calls me dad. His real father came to me back in the 90's, had just remarried and his wife had two girls ages 10 and 12. He told me he was having sex with them. I reported him and he served over 20 years in prison. Just got released about 1 year or so ago and is now in a nursing home as he gotten beaten several times in prison.

Then I went to see my youngest son and had a great time with him. He told me, "Dad, don't even think of taking mom back unless she really repents and tells you everything and I mean everything". He said, "What she did last year lasted a week and I don't want to see you go through that again". I said, don't worry I am still pursuing D.

Someone gave me a brand new dishwasher to sell. I can't believe how my day is going. They just up and said here we just got another new one from a friend and we used this one twice. 

I just got back home. Feeling good. Doing a load of laundry. Chilling out. 

Drove about 200 miles today but it was worth it.

Even have over 1/2 tank of gas in the truck.


----------



## Thorburn

My oldest son came to me and said, "sssssshhh". He gave me a thumbs up and said, "Mom has been upset and I asked her if it was because I have been giving her a bad time, he said she shook her head no, is it dad, she shook her head no, he said is it you and she said yes, I have done bad things, he said, dad, God is speaking to her".

Like I said before, this is so weird. My son was just days ago cursing me out with tons of F bombs, selling his soul to Satan, etc, my wife was mad, now she cries. Money is coming in. And my WS is helping out in this regard.

I handed her almost $400.00 in cash when I came home and she said, put it in the bank.

And I have a new dish washer to sell. Just amazing.


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## bandit.45

She's talking to God huh?

Well maybe she's having a Damascus Road weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

Thorburn said:


> And this is what I need. I don't need what my WS got from her friends and counselors. They told her she does not need to answer my questions, she needs to take care of herself, she is not that bad, God loves you just as you are, we are not going to challenge you in any way, we are just here to support you whatever you do.
> 
> I don't need butt kissers and I do need a kick in the pants from time to time.
> 
> And I do value your opinion.
> 
> One day I hope to be driving in an RV and dropping off $10,000.00 to each one of you. See the country and pay off a very valuable debt. Bandit, I will give you $10,001.00 and a vanilla ice cream cone from McDonald's. The extra dollar is for you to spend on the $1.00 menu, your choice.


Why is it that if Bandit isn't getting banned he's getting ice cream...that sucks...I want ice cream too! LOL


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## Thorburn

the guy said:


> Why is it that if Bandit isn't getting banned he's getting ice cream...that sucks...I want ice cream too! LOL


Ice cream for everyone.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> She's talking to God huh?
> 
> Well maybe she's having a Damascus Road weekend.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't know Bandit if she is or isn't. All I can say is things have turned around for me as to all the hate I was getting and now money is coming in. 

Takes a ton of pressure off me.

Funny, my oldest son said my WS is taking him to a concert downtown so I moved my truck. My neighbor came out and I told him what is going on and he said amazing.

Came back in jumped on the computer laying here on the bed and I have Rudy (our golden retriever) and Ziggy one of our cats laying next to me. They hate each other and here they are both laying against me.

What in the world is going on here? 

I should buy a lottery ticket. I haven't done that in years. The way things are going I will win a million bucks. On second thought it would be a lost dollar.

Oh, yea I found a penny today. Yea, I pick up pennies.


----------



## happyman64

Thorburn said:


> Don't know Bandit if she is or isn't. All I can say is things have turned around for me as to all the hate I was getting and now money is coming in.
> 
> Takes a ton of pressure off me.
> 
> Funny, my oldest son said my WS is taking him to a concert downtown so I moved my truck. My neighbor came out and I told him what is going on and he said amazing.
> 
> Came back in jumped on the computer laying here on the bed and I have Rudy (our golden retriever) and Ziggy one of our cats laying next to me. They hate each other and here they are both laying against me.
> 
> What in the world is going on here?
> 
> I should buy a lottery ticket. I haven't done that in years. The way things are going I will win a million bucks. On second thought it would be a lost dollar.
> 
> Oh, yea I found a penny today. Yea, I pick up pennies.


Thorburn

get in your vehicle and go spend a few bucks on Powerball. Your luck is turning and the Powerball is over $320 million dollars.

Just remember who told you to go buy a ticket if you won!


----------



## Machiavelli

bandit.45 said:


> She's talking to God huh?
> 
> Well maybe she's having a Damascus Road weekend.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It happens. But IMHO this is the road to Divorce and T needs to stay on it.


----------



## tdwal

Machiavelli said:


> It happens. But IMHO this is the road to Divorce and T needs to stay on it.


He has given her a lifetime of chances. No more, live your life for you.


----------



## bandit.45

the guy said:


> Why is it that if Bandit isn't getting banned he's getting ice cream...that sucks...I want ice cream too! LOL


Get your own damned ice cream.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill

God is taking care of you 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

CantSitStill said:


> God is taking care of you
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am amazed. Feel blessed. 

Just feel like things turned around in such an amazing way. Still got a ways to go but man.


----------



## bandit.45

Machiavelli said:


> It happens. But IMHO this is the road to Divorce and T needs to stay on it.


No argument here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

Thorburn said:


> Don't know Bandit if she is or isn't. All I can say is things have turned around for me as to all the hate I was getting and now money is coming in.
> 
> Takes a ton of pressure off me.
> 
> Funny, my oldest son said my WS is taking him to a concert downtown so I moved my truck. My neighbor came out and I told him what is going on and he said amazing.
> 
> Came back in jumped on the computer laying here on the bed and I have Rudy (our golden retriever) and Ziggy one of our cats laying next to me. They hate each other and here they are both laying against me.
> 
> What in the world is going on here?
> 
> I should buy a lottery ticket. I haven't done that in years. The way things are going I will win a million bucks. On second thought it would be a lost dollar.
> 
> Oh, yea I found a penny today. Yea, I pick up pennies.


I roll pennies so don't pat your self on the back ! LOL


Money being the root of all evil I would be concerned with your new perception.......but what do I know , I'm piss poor broke.LOL

Financially speaking.


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## bandit.45

I'm poor now too. In fact I can't even afford the last two letters of poor. I'm just po.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Numbersixxx

bandit.45 said:


> She's talking to God huh?
> 
> Well maybe she's having a Damascus Road weekend.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Talking to god is easy. Getting an answer back is the hard part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SaltInWound

Numbersixxx said:


> Talking to god is easy. Getting an answer back is the hard part.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The hard part is drowning out the evil whispers enough to understand what God has said.


----------



## Ovid

SaltInWound said:


> The hard part is drowning out the evil whispers enough to understand what God has said.


People usually hear the whispers they like best. My Ws POSOM tried to ruin our M so she'd move in and pay his rent. He's about to be homeless. He's on FB telling everyone the Lord will get him through it...


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## Shaggy

Numbersixxx said:


> Talking to god is easy. Getting an answer back is the hard part.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've always thought that for people who wanted to do bad things, listening was the hard part because the don't want the message they do hear.


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## survivorwife

Numbersixxx said:


> Talking to god is easy. Getting an answer back is the hard part.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


God answers all prayers. Sometimes the answer is "no", for His plan may not always be the same as what we desire.


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## bandit.45

survivorwife said:


> God answers all prayers. Sometimes the answer is "no", for His plan may not always be the same as what we desire.


Yeah...I hate it when He does that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

This morning my WS is back to being mad and avoiding me. My son asked me to take him to church. Hmmmm, my WS told him she would go with him. I said OK. We got in the truck and my son was covered in dog hair and I said calmly, you can't go to church like that, you are covered in dog hair. He started throwing out F bombs, got out of the truck and slammed the door. I sat in the truck and quietly prayed.

My son came back out Bible in hand and with different clothes. We left for church. I asked him why his mother is not taking him and he said she is too tired. He said she worked hard yesterday with the table and getting food. She did help me load the table but it was not heavy and took 5 minutes. Groceries, yea, she is tired.

So much for her going to church.

Funny how my son's mood is tied in to her mood. He feeds off of her an right now I can't stop him from doing it. At least I get a good view of how she feels by seeing how he is acting. The only thing I have control over is how I react. And right now I am dealing with it fairly well, letting it flow off me.


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## bandit.45

Your wife is experiencing a taste of the rollercoaster that you have been riding for the past year. She's weaker than you,and because she can't control those conflicting feelings she blames it on you. Wives blame 90% of their problems on their husbands, wether or not the marriage is a good or bad one. 

She's realising you will be gone soon and there will be no one left to blame but herself for her own poor choices. Doesn't sit well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Your wife is experiencing a taste of the rollercoaster that you have been riding for the past year. She's weaker than you,and because she can't control those conflicting feelings she blames it on you. Wives blame 90% of their problems on their husbands, wether or not the marriage is a good or bad one.
> 
> She's realising you will be gone soon and there will be no one left to blame but herself for her own poor choices. Doesn't sit well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is funny also that her younger brother stopped talking to me. He says he needs time to pray and think. He has responded to my texts but briefly.

My WS does not know (at least I don't think she does) that I can track our landline. I finally figure it out and got access to the account and can see all the calls she makes, etc. I can even listen to any VM she gets.

I hate the fact that "no phone number" and anonymous came up from months ago and I can't figure out how to get those numbers. They stopped after discovery.

She is not talking to her younger brother and has not done so since Monday like he told me on Tuesday that he does not want to talk to us right now after he found out my WS was lying to him.

If she still has her cheater phone she will not use it to contact family.


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## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> I hate the fact that "no phone number" and anonymous came up from months ago and I can't figure out how to get those numbers. They stopped after discovery.


Not encouraging you to go back into investigation mode, but does the phone company give the option to block numbers that show up as anonymous, etc? I know some do.


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## Thorburn

SaltInWound said:


> Not encouraging you to go back into investigation mode, but does the phone company give the option to block numbers that show up as anonymous, etc? I know some do.


Do not feel the urge to investigate, just track who she is talking to, etc. She did contact a bankruptcy attorney, and she is talking to her friends and a family member, and work. There are a few other numbers that do not make sense as they are businesses and could be the guy or guys work places. 

I really don't care other then to see what attorney she is contacting (I got that) and to use this if she continues to lie to her family and have to prove something. 

I have to find out if I can get those numbers, my neighbor works for the company and we have become friends, I will ask him.

I can't block those numbers, I tried and it says I can't. A screen pops up saying you can't block an anonymous number


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## Thorburn

My son came home from church and apologized to me for cursing me out. He said he found a good church. We had a nice talk. He asked where Mom is and I said upstairs and he said no she isn't her car is gone. I don't know and I don't care.


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## bandit.45

Yeah you might as well get used to her sneaking out and staying gone for hours. But you have to fight the urge to track her or aske her where she's been. Remember you're detaching. 

She has always been a two headed monster. One head used to be the wife, now that head is the moping, brooding, crying, praying person. The other head is going to take over from time to time and she will disappear to God knows where to do God knows what. 

She is unsalvageable Thorburn. 

Concentrate on you. Have you been exercising? Eating properly? Just because you lost a lot of weight doesn't mean you are getting healthier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah you might as well get used to her sneaking out and staying gone for hours. But you have to fight the urge to track her or aske her where she's been. Remember you're detaching.
> 
> She has always been a two headed monster. One head used to be the wife, now that head is the moping, brooding, crying, praying person. The other head is going to take over from time to time and she will disappear to God knows where to do God knows what.
> 
> She is unsalvageable Thorburn.
> 
> Concentrate on you. Have you been exercising? Eating properly? Just because you lost a lot of weight doesn't mean you are getting healthier.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have been walking. Getting ready to start running again. I am eating more and feel great. Some of the meds I was on I am no longer needing. My goal this year was to get to a certain pant size and I am almost there. Getting there quicker then I planned but I am OK as far as the weight goes.

I don't care where she goes. I just mentioned it as I did not see her leave and my son asked me where his mother was. I don't ask and sometimes she tells me. 

I did notice that my pastor called our number early in the morning the other day twice. He would not know our number unless my WS or my son called him and gave it to him and there is no record of them calling his number, just found it, someone did call him first from our landline. It was not a long call, less then a minute both times but it was a received call so someone picked up. I will see my pastor later today and see if he says anything. Typically I would be worried about my WS talking to someone like this because she will put her spin on it but he knows my story and I was completely open with him. But like her two older brothers said, let her spin it to him in any way she wants, the pastor knows the story and will not be fooled by her. they said she will more than likely blast you to pieces to him and he already knows that story, Mac raged, Mac drank, etc. Her brothers have been telling the family members who jumped on my WS's bandwagon, so what, looked at what our sister did to Mac to cause him to do that, many normal people react that way and worse. They have been telling the other family members our sister has been lying to us and Mac for years, how do you expect him to act? Her middle sister said, Mac had a GPS on her car and recorded her, that is horrible. her brother said, What, are you insane? Any normal spouse would do that, why didn't our sister say check on me anytime.


----------



## AngryandUsed

Thor.

My only wish is that you should get past this as fast as possible. As bandit said, thinking about her only indicates that you are struggling. I will be happy to be wrong on this.

It is hard for anyone to ignore so many years of love and sharing. Please remember that remembering her and the beautiful moments will drag you back from recovery.

AU


----------



## Thorburn

AngryandUsed said:


> Thor.
> 
> My only wish is that you should get past this as fast as possible. As bandit said, thinking about her only indicates that you are struggling. I will be happy to be wrong on this.
> 
> It is hard for anyone to ignore so many years of love and sharing. Please remember that remembering her and the beautiful moments will drag you back from recovery.
> 
> AU


I would be dishonest if I say I am not struggling from time to time with my feelings towards her. But I have disengaged for the most part. I do not have those panic feelings when she goes off. She did come home about 5 minutes ago and I really don't care and that is an honest statement. Having the recording brings me back to reality. I have not listened to it in a while, but last night I was thinking, "she is going to church tomorrow and might change" Then my gut told me, she won't go. And that is what happened she didn't go. Also last night I was reminded of the recording. Look at what she did and look at how easily she did it with no regret. Listening to it like I have shows how it was just another day in her life, like it was normal. Those who have heard it here on TAM (and it is not many) can attest to how casual she was having sex with the dude three times in like an hour. Just like a normal day. Sex, normal talk, then sex, normal talk, sex and then taking the dude home. No I love yous, just sick.


----------



## Acabado

Almost relieved her apparent change of path didn't last more than a few hours, I could sense you were about to get hooked up again in your codependence/addiction to hope.


----------



## AngryandUsed

Thorburn said:


> I would be dishonest if I say I am not struggling from time to time with my feelings towards her. But I have disengaged for the most part. I do not have those panic feelings when she goes off. She did come home about 5 minutes ago and I really don't care and that is an honest statement. Having the recording brings me back to reality. I have not listened to it in a while, but last night I was thinking, "she is going to church tomorrow and might change" Then my gut told me, she won't go. And that is what happened she didn't go. Also last night I was reminded of the recording. Look at what she did and look at how easily she did it with no regret. Listening to it like I have shows how it was just another day in her life, like it was normal. Those who have heard it here on TAM (and it is not many) can attest to how casual she was having sex with the dude three times in like an hour. Just like a normal day. Sex, normal talk, then sex, normal talk, sex and then taking the dude home. No I love yous, just sick.


Her blatant disrespect for the marriage should have caused you great aversion, Thor.

I know that this situation sucks.

Wish you come out strong.


----------



## bandit.45

Its all part of the compartmentalyzation cheaters do. It is just another thing for her. Get up, cook breakfast, put on makeup, get dressed, kiss Thorburn goodbye, stop for gas, go to work for a couple of hours, meet stranger in parking lot for illicit sex, go back to work, leave work, stop at the grocer store, get home, kiss Thorburn hello, talk about day, cook dinner, clean the kitchen, take a bath, get in to bed, watch tv and go to sleep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aug

Thorburn said:


> Also last night I was reminded of the recording. Look at what she did and look at how easily she did it with no regret. Listening to it like I have shows how it was just another day in her life, like it was normal. Those who have heard it here on TAM (and it is not many) can attest to how casual she was having sex with the dude three times in like an hour. Just like a normal day. Sex, normal talk, then sex, normal talk, sex and then taking the dude home. No I love yous, just sick.



Is it possible that she's so used to decades of infidelity that this is her normal behavior?


----------



## Thorburn

aug said:


> Is it possible that she's so used to decades of infidelity that this is her normal behavior?


Absolutely. that is why my youngest son and two older BILs keep saying it would have to take something massive for me to even consider taking her back. I kept saying to my WS last year about her A in 2011 that it just seem like a normal day for you. I said you keep telling me you don't remember, yet it took you over an hour to fix your hair, shower, get dressed, and then drive an hour, etc. and she says she does not remember like it was going to work or the grocery store.

Her oldest brother keeps telling me that she compartmentalizes and was able to act just like bandit described. 

I came home from church and my WS came out and said the nursing home where she works is still under shut down. This is the third week due to the flu. I have seen this before in nursing homes.

I asked my pastor if he talked to my wife and he said yes briefly. He asked me if I have kept my anger under control, I replied not last year but now yes. I said I have not raged at all and said I really don't have anger. It was a weird question, I wonder what my wife said but I didn't want to go there. He said I get a sense you have some hope in the M and I said yes, if she repents and tells me everything. I said even then I will more than likely file for D and see what she does after that. I said, my youngest son and her two older brothers agree with me. I said my oldest BIL (he and the pastor are in the same denomination as pastors) said it would have to be something massive.

The pastor said, well her talking to me is a start though it was very brief. We could not talk long as people were coming up to him.


----------



## Thorburn

I talked to my middle BIL today. He talked to his youngest brother. My youngest BIL and my WS were talking up till last Monday. She was telling him that I cut her off financially and was crying to him about money as he is a millionaire. I talked to him on Tuesday and proved to him that I did not cut off the money. He was upset that she was lying to him. Since that time he will only text me and says he is not talking to her as he is trying to figure this out. I know he was hurt. Why would she lie to him when he has shown her compassion and understanding and has money?

Anyway, my middle BIL says his younger brother gets it, that he understands that all she does is lie. He says he is stunned at her lies. He said he will not be misled by her lies. I believe my middle BIL. He is a solid guy.

My WS does not look well. I believe the pressure of her family withdrawing is taking it's toll on her even though the financial pressures have lessened. 

My oldest son gets it but is easily influenced by his mother. I told him some things that I know he will repeat to her about comments her family has made and our youngest son made. 

What I don't understand is why she has left her relationship with our youngest son die. She has not done anything to contact him in weeks.


----------



## Thorburn

Just got off the phone with my oldest BIL man he gave me an ear full of how wayward his sister is. Calling her whorish, etc. He said, D can't come soon enough. He said my WS has really been bashing me and he said it has gotten old. He said he was telling her middle sister yea Mac did all those things but our sister is taking it out of context. Mac did get mad but she kept lying to him, or he found out she was cheating. He said he heard it all from her middle sister, my WS did it because she was lonely, she fell in love, etc. He said this is ridiculous. She met "Willie" and fell in love. He said, (My WS told me this) when she first met "Willie" she was disappointed in him, but that did not stop her from driving to a hotel and having sex with him. 

He said his sister is nuts all I can do is D her and hope she gets straightened out. He did say that the middle sister agrees with her when she bashes me but calls her out when she talks about herself. The middle sister says my WS talks nuts when she talks about herself and she calls her out on it.

My BIL says his middle sister has to stop even agreeing with my WS about bashing me because he says she just takes it out of context. My middle SIL says Mac was wrong by putting a GPS on her car and checking on her. My BIL says, what are you nuts? Mac found out she was cheating and you are giving her a pass by saying how wrong it was for him to check on her. He told her our sister should have begged Mac to check on her at any time. All she did was hide stuff and lie about it.

I imagine very soon my WS's entire family will turn on her. Right now it is just one sister and she is very unstable.


----------



## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> What I don't understand is why she has left her relationship with our youngest son die. She has not done anything to contact him in weeks.


He is not as easily influenced. She does not want to face what she has done and she knows he will tell it to her straight forward. It is the only thing I can figure out as the reason why my husband has made every excuse not to have a conversation with our son.


----------



## Thorburn

SaltInWound said:


> He is not as easily influenced. She does not want to face what she has done and she knows he will tell it to her straight forward. It is the only thing I can figure out as the reason why my husband has made every excuse not to have a conversation with our son.


Like my oldest BIL told me tonight. She does not want to be confronted by anyone who will tell her the truth. She wants it her way, just love me, tell me God understands me, he says God would tell her to stop whoring around and lying and she does not want to hear it.


----------



## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> What I don't understand is why she has left her relationship with our youngest son die. She has not done anything to contact him in weeks.


He probably told her to repent. That's a nonstarter.


----------



## KanDo

thorn,

Please don't take this the wrong way. I appreciate your desire for acceptance from your wife's family. Their affirmations of you help allay any feelings of guilt regarding your actions in this matter. 

You really must begin the process of separating yourself from your wife in all aspects of life and move on. You may need to continue to co-parent, to be financially attached,etc. However, you don't need to contiue to engage her and you don't need to engage you in-laws. They already know what is going on. They love their sister and in time will come to forgive her. The saying that blood is thicker than water holds doubly true in divorce. 

Please start living like a single man. Stop engaging in this tragedy. You seem to be holding out hope that this will come to some positive end, like reconcilliation. I would posit that that would be the most unhappiest of endings! 

You don't have to be mean; but, stop being there for her and accumulate what ever is need to file. Heck, you could file the initial papers yourslef using on-line forms and help from the clerk of the court.

Time to move forward..


----------



## Thorburn

KanDo said:


> thorn,
> 
> Please don't take this the wrong way. I appreciate your desire for acceptance from your wife's family. Their affirmations of you help allay any feelings of guilt regarding your actions in this matter.
> 
> You really must begin the process of separating yourself from your wife in all aspects of life and move on. You may need to continue to co-parent, to be financially attached,etc. However, you don't need to contiue to engage her and you don't need to engage you in-laws. They already know what is going on. They love their sister and in time will come to forgive her. The saying that blood is thicker than water holds doubly true in divorce.
> 
> Please start living like a single man. Stop engaging in this tragedy. You seem to be holding out hope that this will come to some positive end, like reconcilliation. I would posit that that would be the most unhappiest of endings!
> 
> You don't have to be mean; but, stop being there for her and accumulate what ever is need to file. Heck, you could file the initial papers yourslef using on-line forms and help from the clerk of the court.
> 
> Time to move forward..


This has been a process for me. My in-laws have been closer to me then my own family. When this last discovery happened my oldest BIL got it almost right away as did my youngest son. My oldest SIL got it as well. I do feel that I will have a relationship with most of my in laws till the time I die. 

I still love my WS but am steadfast on D. If I had the funds today I would not hesitate to file. I do want to work with the attorney I met with as I do not want to file without legal guidance. And I need money to do that.

I am OK with waiting. 

When this first broke again in Feb. I could not imagine my WS in another relationship, getting remarried, etc. I am now at the point of I don't care what she does. 

Her family has turned on her for the most part and she does not have them to run to and she has cut off our youngest son. All I did was tell the truth. She has done this to herself.

I feel like I am at a much better place right now and feel confident in pursuing D.

I would be dishonest if I did not mention that I wish my WS would turn around. But the years of lying, A's and everyone of my counselors over the years said she will continue to do this again and some said it will get worse. I do understand that I had a unhealthy view of what my WS had done and was hoping for a genuine change. 

But now I feel OK at where I am. I have great support and all I really want to do is get some financial stability. There were periods in the past weeks where I felt like going scorched earth on my WS but I did not let those feelings take over. 

My WS is miserable, I am at peace. I saw her this morning and I mean she is miserable. I am not gloating in her misery. I feel sorry for her. She created this mess. I will not fix it even if I could.

Her lies continue and they are smacking her in the face.

I already know what the worse she can do to me financially. She has very little to no influence on my emotions. 

So yes I am moving forward. A little faster now and when I get the funds I will file without regret.


----------



## karole

I appreciate all you said Thor, but when push comes to shove, they are HER family and they will support HER in the end - no matter how much they think of you.


----------



## vi_bride04

karole said:


> I appreciate all you said Thor, but when push comes to shove, they are HER family and they will support HER in the end - no matter how much they think of you.


:iagree:

Blood is always thicker than water, no matter what. And its a shame sometimes.....

The second you do start to be your own man and stop engaging them to help with your WS, you will see. They just want to help her and see you as the one of the main people to get through to her. Once your support is gone from that en devour, they will show their true colors.


----------



## Thorburn

My WS just came to me and said she is sick, she looks awful. I asked her if she needs me to get her anything or take her anywhere. She said no. I asked her again and she said she does not need anything. I told her if she needs me to bang on my door.

Funny a couple months ago I woke her up and asked her to take me to the E.R. after I had a bad attack. I have a stomach problem, not serious but it gets very painful and radiates into my chest. I black out and I also had reflux that went into my lungs. She refused to take me saying she was too tired. I had to drive myself. They did a series of tests and gave me anti-biotics to prevent pneumonia. Again, nothing serious, I was to get surgery in the fall to maybe stop this but I have been putting it off. I told my WS that I do not want her there when I get my surgery after the E.R. episode. I said, if I can't trust you to take me to the E.R. when I need you I do not want you around when I have surgery. 

This is a woman who is bashing me and telling all that will listen that I am the most self-centered person she knows.

In 2010 I ended up in the E.R. and was going to be admitted to the hospital for Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever and all she wanted me to do was get her car home. The night before on FB at 11 P.m. as I was in bed sick, some dude wrote to her, "You are pretty". And she went nuts having cyber sex with him for over a month. The doctor sent me home instead of admitting me and my WS did not help me at all as I laid in bed sick. Prior to this she would dote on me. 

And she calls me selfish and self-centered to her friends and family.

If I was not deployed I was always there for her, always.


----------



## bandit.45

Have you reminded her family, especially her idiot middle sister, about those doozies?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

vi_bride04 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Blood is always thicker than water, no matter what. And its a shame sometimes.....
> 
> The second you do start to be your own man and stop engaging them to help with your WS, you will see. They just want to help her and see you as the one of the main people to get through to her. Once your support is gone from that en devour, they will show their true colors.


This is my fear too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Have you reminded her family, especially her idiot middle sister, about those doozies?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The BILs yes the middle sister no. Her middle BIL said he is no longer talking to her and I talked to her once and I am done for the time being. I sure my WS told her all about it and gave her some excuse why she did not take me.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

TB, have you discussed any of this with your family or are things really that bad?


----------



## Thorburn

phillybeffandswiss said:


> TB, have you discussed any of this with your family or are things really that bad?


My dad died last year. My mother is elderly and just got over pneumonia and I do not want to burden her. I talk to my oldest sister. My older brother wants me to go through mediation and work things out. He means well, married three times, wealthy and knows everybody there is to know. He has been in Celine Dion's house in Florida not to long ago, he is quite a charming man, but he hated my father (I don't blame him), I made peace with my dad in the early 90's and we got along well till his death last year. his first wife just died and left over a million dollars to his daughter. I told her, so you got your dad's money back. My two other brothers are quite different. Like my father, blue collar union guys at Harley Davidson and we don't talk much. My younger brother also hated my dad and that has led to us being distant and my next older brother is bi-polar. Sweet guy but out there. My youngest sister died when I was in Iraq. She also worked at Harley Davidson.

My father was a pistol to say the least and it was due to him being so mean that our family kind of just went our separate ways. It is ironic that my father's family was kind. Out of 9 children my dad was the second oldest and was nasty. Most of his brothers and sisters were dairy farmers and salt of the earth kind of people. My grandparents were not educated like many of their day and area. They were kind hard working folks.

So my family was close growing up with many cousins, etc meeting every Sunday. But as we grew up my brothers and sisters could not wait to get out of dodge. It was hel* in our house with our dad, when he was home. 

My dad changed, got religion and settled down, but my brothers never forgave him. I understand but I did forgave my dad and I was blessed by him in many ways.

My oldest living brother converted to Judaism just to spite my dad and he wanted to pis* on my dad's grave and bull doze the house my dad literally built in the late forties. He tells my mother when she goes the house is going to get bull dozed. I get his hatred towards my father, I let it go.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn, if and when you take over your supervisior's position after he retires, how long will you work before you take a full retirement?

I know your STBXWW is taking half your retirement, but do you ever see yourself leaving Pennsylvania and just going somewhere far away and starting over?


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Thorburn, if and when you take over your supervisior's position after he retires, how long will you work before you take a full retirement?
> 
> I know your STBXWW is taking half your retirement, but do you ever see yourself leaving Pennsylvania and just going somewhere far away and starting over?


Not sure. Maybe 10 years, maybe less. I love my job. Yea, I can leave PA. Have to see how things go.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> Not sure. Maybe 10 years, maybe less. I love my job. Yea, I can leave PA. Have to see how things go.


Come to Arizona. Hot weather, hotter babes, all the Mexican food you can eat... and you'll be far, far away from that crazy STBXW and her circus train.


----------



## happyman64

bandit.45 said:


> Come to Arizona. Hot weather, hotter babes, all the Mexican food you can eat... and you'll be far, far away from that crazy STBXW and her circus train.


With Thorburns luck he might move to Arizona and meet this beautiful latin woman who drives a new camaro that is beat to crap....

Sound like someone you used to know Bandit???


----------



## bandit.45

happyman64 said:


> With Thorburns luck he might move to Arizona and meet this beautiful latin woman who drives a new camaro that is beat to crap....
> 
> Sound like someone you used to know Bandit???


He's not wealthy enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

bandit.45 said:


> He's not wealthy enough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dude, no one is!!!!

We know how expensive it gets to maintain a crazy woman!!!

You made me laugh tonight Bandit.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Come to Arizona. Hot weather, hotter babes, all the Mexican food you can eat... and you'll be far, far away from that crazy STBXW and her circus train.


Love Mexican food. Arizona. Love lizards and snakes


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Thorburn said:


> Love Mexican food. Arizona. Love lizards and snakes


Oh good lord, we don't need anymore bad drivers out here LOL.


----------



## Shaggy

You know thorburn, one of key problems is you want her to recover and turn back into the wife that you believed you had. Meanwhile it appears that for at least the last 19 years she's had a continuous second life of serial and even overlapping affairs,even in your own bed.

So the thing is the wife you thought you had never actually existed. Not at all.

So there is no going back to the good days because they ever happened.

That's why you both are so stuck, there isn't a reality in the past where she wasn't like this.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> You know thorburn, one of key problems is you want her to recover and turn back into the wife that you believed you had. Meanwhile it appears that for at least the last 19 years she's had a continuous second life of serial and even overlapping affairs,even in your own bed.
> 
> So the thing is the wife you thought you had never actually existed. Not at all.
> 
> So there is no going back to the good days because they ever happened.
> 
> That's why you both are so stuck, there isn't a reality in the past where she wasn't like this.


Shaggy, for me this has been a process. I believe I am at the point of not being stuck. This past weekend when I went to my other home to be with my son my plan was to go there on Friday and spend Friday evening and Saturday with my youngest son. My WS called me and asked for help in selling an item. She could not sell the table and deliver it herself, she needed my truck. I gave her the money (almost $400.00 cash) and she gave it back to me last night. Anyway, I delievered it on Saturday morning (the table) and went to see my son. I was planning at that point to spend the night. My son said to me, Dad, you can't take mom back unless we see a big change in her. I said I am going to follow through with D and he said go for it. I spent some time with my son and as he had friends dropping by I said, look I don't need to spend the night, you got things to do and I went back home. I had a good time with my son.

My conflict has been mainly how my boys are going to handle this. 

Like I said for me it is a process, it takes me a while to take suggestions in and make a decision. Sometimes it is minutes and other times days or weeks.

I am now very comfortable with D. I did talk to a psychologist yesterday who worked at one of the treatment facilities that I was going to recommend to my BIL's, and he use to work with my counselor that I had last year. He deals with sexual addictions and has done so for many years. He said my WS is not ready for treatment and as a believer he said I need to move on with D. I had been playing phone tag with this guy for over two weeks. He was actually the last guy I wanted to talk to about my WS's condition and got the confirmation I needed.

So I am not worried about getting treatment for my WS, not concerned. 

My WS is sick. She came to me after I came home and has a bug. She said she can't work. I just see things not working for her and I have pity for her. It seems like everything that can go wrong is going wrong for her. And things are going well for me.

So Shaggy I am not stuck any more. The only thing I need is some cash and I am working towards that end.

I now see the light at the end of the tunnel.


----------



## turnera

It sounds like your sons will do just fine with the D.


----------



## Shaggy

I know your not stuck, but you wife's family is. They still aren't seeing the whole picture, and what I mean by that is they are seeing this a decision she is currently making. An aberration from the normal her.. They aren't seeing that in fact she has had this as part of her daily routine for 19 years. 

The only new thing is that you finally know the truth and are divorcing her. 

They think she's going to have an awakening and stop and return to not doing it. The thing is it is fundamentally integrated into her lifestyle and her. 

What she sees is you abandoning her and the marriage. You are the one in the wrong. For 19 years she kept her end up, didn't let it become public, had dinner ready , was home to sleep. It became the normal routine of her life. You are the one who is breaking the rules, causing grief with her children and family. You are deliberately dong things to harm the marriage and family.

And her family is hoping that if you file for D, it will be enough to wake her up and have her work to save the marriage, what they do not get and likely never will, is that to her the marriage she had has for 19 years included her essentially living in a one sided open marriage with a long series of OM and relationships. She's been at it do long she no longer knows how to be faithful, or how that could possibly be.

Your special needs son living at home must have really complicated it for her. Where once she had the men come by when you were gone and she was alone, him being home prevented that. So she turned to her car.

It's surprising she hasn't caught anything during these years. Perhaps she has and it's affected her health. You sad she has medical problems, could they be std related?

See I don't think she's gonna crash when you finally D. I think she'll be lonely and will miss having you around, but she'll retreat into more time with the OMs, she'll even likely try hooking onto one more permanently, but she'll soon be cheating on him.

People can get therapy to pull them out of behavior that isn't truly them, but in her case this is a conscious lifestyle she's cultivated , defended and chosen. It's as much a part of her as is having morning coffee.

And that's why you'll never get a true apology from her. Hw can you possibly feel remorse for how you've successfully lived your life for a major part of your adult existence ?

You get this, but her family never will.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> It sounds like your sons will do just fine with the D.


My oldest one will go back and forth but they both understand that their mother is lost at this point in her life and there is nothing we can do for her.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> I know your not stuck, but you wife's family is. They still aren't seeing the whole picture, and what I mean by that is they are seeing this a decision she is currently making. An aberration from the normal her.. They aren't seeing that in fact she has had this as part of her daily routine for 19 years.
> 
> The only new thing is that you finally know the truth and are divorcing her.
> 
> They think she's going to have an awakening and stop and return to not doing it. The thing is it is fundamentally integrated into her lifestyle and her.
> 
> What she sees is you abandoning her and the marriage. You are the one in the wrong. For 19 years she kept her end up, didn't let it become public, had dinner ready , was home to sleep. It became the normal routine of her life. You are the one who is breaking the rules, causing grief with her children and family. You are deliberately dong things to harm the marriage and family.
> 
> And her family is hoping that if you file for D, it will be enough to wake her up and have her work to save the marriage, what they do not get and likely never will, is that to her the marriage she had has for 19 years included her essentially living in a one sided open marriage with a long series of OM and relationships. She's been at it do long she no longer knows how to be faithful, or how that could possibly be.
> 
> Your special needs son living at home must have really complicated it for her. Where once she had the men come by when you were gone and she was alone, him being home prevented that. So she turned to her car.
> 
> It's surprising she hasn't caught anything during these years. Perhaps she has and it's affected her health. You sad she has medical problems, could they be std related?
> 
> See I don't think she's gonna crash when you finally D. I think she'll be lonely and will miss having you around, but she'll retreat into more time with the OMs, she'll even likely try hooking onto one more permanently, but she'll soon be cheating on him.
> 
> People can get therapy to pull them out of behavior that isn't truly them, but in her case this is a conscious lifestyle she's cultivated , defended and chosen. It's as much a part of her as is having morning coffee.
> 
> And that's why you'll never get a true apology from her. Hw can you possibly feel remorse for how you've successfully lived your life for a major part of your adult existence ?
> 
> You get this, but her family never will.


Well stated Shaggy. My two oldest BILs would say almost exactly the same thing you said, they get it, they really do. But I agree with you in that they were thinking that D will shake her up, but I don't think they are thinking that anymore. Heck, I thought that some weeks ago, that by threatening D it will wake her up.

You have summed it up very nicely. I copied this and printed it out.


----------



## tdwal

She is getting old, she can't keep this up forever. She is gonna crash like a house of cards one day and show up on your doorstep Thor Im afraid.


----------



## Thorburn

tdwal said:


> She is getting old, she can't keep this up forever. She is gonna crash like a house of cards one day and show up on your doorstep Thor Im afraid.


Don't be afraid tdwal. She is not that scary. Lol. What if I am living in place without a doorstep? Does that mean she will never show up?


----------



## victarion

Haven't gotten through the entire thread, my heart goes out to ya though, you will do well.


----------



## Thorburn

Bandit, you got me thinking. I am seriously thinking of taking my stuff to my mother's house, I have already been told I can store stuff there. My family told me I can move in with her if I need to do so. They already had that conversation. She needs help anyway, so that is an option.

I have used the Vietnam G.I. Bill years ago and am now elgible for the Post 911 bill. I could go to school full time and get paid to do so, or I am elgible for Vocational Rehab in the VA system and would get paid the same rate as the G.I. bill have them pay for everything, plus get a stipend and then still have the G.I. bill to use later.

I am thinking (just thinking) of letting her deal with everything and just leaving, quitting my job, and just leave.

I don't need much to live on, really I don't and I could reconnect with old friends, neighbors and relatives. 

Or take my tent and sleep in Bandit's backyard and keep the horned toads at bay. Bandit, you don't have a doorstep do you?


----------



## tdwal

Thorburn said:


> Bandit, you got me thinking. I am seriously thinking of taking my stuff to my mother's house, I have already been told I can store stuff there. My family told me I can move in with her if I need to do so. They already had that conversation. She needs help anyway, so that is an option.
> 
> I have used the Vietnam G.I. Bill years ago and am now elgible for the Post 911 bill. I could go to school full time and get paid to do so, or I am elgible for Vocational Rehab in the VA system and would get paid the same rate as the G.I. bill have them pay for everything, plus get a stipend and then still have the G.I. bill to use later.
> 
> I am thinking (just thinking) of letting her deal with everything and just leaving, quitting my job, and just leave.
> 
> I don't need much to live on, really I don't and I could reconnect with old friends, neighbors and relatives.
> 
> Or take my tent and sleep in Bandit's backyard and keep the horned toads at bay. Bandit, you don't have a doorstep do you?


My son has great benefited from his 911 GI bill, I like that idea.


----------



## turnera

Me too.


----------



## Chaparral

Thorburn said:


> Bandit, you got me thinking. I am seriously thinking of taking my stuff to my mother's house, I have already been told I can store stuff there. My family told me I can move in with her if I need to do so. They already had that conversation. She needs help anyway, so that is an option.
> 
> I have used the Vietnam G.I. Bill years ago and am now elgible for the Post 911 bill. I could go to school full time and get paid to do so, or I am elgible for Vocational Rehab in the VA system and would get paid the same rate as the G.I. bill have them pay for everything, plus get a stipend and then still have the G.I. bill to use later.
> 
> I am thinking (just thinking) of letting her deal with everything and just leaving, quitting my job, and just leave.
> 
> I don't need much to live on, really I don't and I could reconnect with old friends, neighbors and relatives.
> 
> Or take my tent and sleep in Bandit's backyard and keep the horned toads at bay. Bandit, you don't have a doorstep do you?


Ooooop, someone said Bandit has been banned again. And remember, horned toads are also called horney toads.

My neighbors borught some home from San Antoino back in the sixties. We loved those guys but evidently they could handle KY.


----------



## Thorburn

chapparal said:


> Ooooop, someone said Bandit has been banned again. And remember, horned toads are also called horney toads.
> 
> My neighbors borught some home from San Antoino back in the sixties. We loved those guys but evidently they could handle KY.


In PA we have fence lizards and skinks. My boys use to love to go "lizarding" down near the river. The lizrds loved the railroad tracks. Every once is a while we would run into a snake. A rattler or a copperhead was not uncommon. Fortunately they were on my grandfathers farm and I knew what they were and how to handle them. The best thing is just leave them alone. But my boys being boys would want to catch them. Growing up they would have a copperhead and rattler round up (no longer legal) back near where I grew up. I remeber stepping on a copperhead during one of those hunts and man oh man I leaped on a rocky ledge and almost fell off the ledge. My buddy got the snake and points, I just had the fright of my life, no snake, no points.

My one uncle taught us never to kill a snake at an early age. 

My home in the city in Lancaster had black snakes and black rat snakes (they can get about 10 feet long). My neighbor would always get me to catch a snake. The rat snakes are fairly docile, but the black racers would get mean, I always found one or two in my sheds. Kept the mice away.


----------



## Thorburn

Had a long talk with my oldest BIL last night. He wants me to do one more thing. It has to do with my youngest BIL and middle SIL feeling that I am not being honest. I am not going into it, but it is not a big deal. I will write my WS a letter and that will be that. They want to see her response. 

I know I have been told to distance myself from them. They are frustrated and My oldest BIL is working hard on getting the entire family on board. These two (middle SIL and younger BIL) go back and forth and he said they want to see one more thing and see how she reacts. Like I said, no big deal. Write a letter hand it to her and she will have to go from there.

I guess she has been lying to them again and they want to see how she responds to what I write. 

They are hoping she changes and I feel that they see this as one last hope. I don't, but it can't hurt.


----------



## KanDo

Thorburn said:


> Had a long talk with my oldest BIL last night. He wants me to do one more thing. It has to do with my youngest BIL and middle SIL feeling that I am not being honest. I am not going into it, but it is not a big deal. I will write my WS a letter and that will be that. They want to see her response.
> 
> I know I have been told to distance myself from them. They are frustrated and My oldest BIL is working hard on getting the entire family on board. These two (middle SIL and younger BIL) go back and forth and he said they want to see one more thing and see how she reacts. Like I said, no big deal. Write a letter hand it to her and she will have to go from there.
> 
> I guess she has been lying to them again and they want to see how she responds to what I write.
> 
> They are hoping she changes and I feel that they see this as one last hope. I don't, but it can't hurt.


Thor,
WHY? What possible difference does it make how she responds? This is fruitless and demonstrates your inability to detach. You have already provided evidence that conclusively shows your WW is a liar. If the bank statements didn't convince them, nothing more will. Get off this roller coaster. Move on.


----------



## survivorwife

Thorburn said:


> Had a long talk with my oldest BIL last night. He wants me to do one more thing. It has to do with my youngest BIL and middle SIL feeling that I am not being honest. I am not going into it, but it is not a big deal. I will write my WS a letter and that will be that. They want to see her response.
> 
> I know I have been told to distance myself from them. They are frustrated and My oldest BIL is working hard on getting the entire family on board. These two (middle SIL and younger BIL) go back and forth and he said they want to see one more thing and see how she reacts. Like I said, no big deal. Write a letter hand it to her and she will have to go from there.
> 
> I guess she has been lying to them again and they want to see how she responds to what I write.
> 
> They are hoping she changes and I feel that they see this as one last hope. I don't, *but it can't hurt.*


Um, yes it can hurt. Be very careful about the written word. Anything you put in writing can possibly be used against you at some future date. And my concern is that they didn't direct YOU on what to say, however, they claim to be interested in her response (assuming here that she also puts HER response in writing as well). I'm not liking this and I am on your side here. 

In addition, they are on the sidelines, watching a "he said - she said" event with no "legal" standing at all, just family. Let me ask you something straight up. Does their opinion, be it good bad or indifferent have any weight in your decision whether to try to R or D? Isn't that up to you, and you alone? Whether she changes or not? Isn't it to late (for you)?

You can have conversations with your W at any time you chose. Please, be very careful about what you put in writing and what you hand over to her. Whether she responds or not, she will now have a piece of paper with your words on them, expressing your thoughts.

I would advise against this request, but I understand your position as well. All I ask is that you think this out carefully.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

See and this is why I disagreed when Chap said why you should distance. You are doing the heavy lifitng while everyone sits back and watches. 

I remember them talking about interventions but did that occur? I see them talking about how bad she is, but every fix involves you doing something. They believe you, but..... Now, they need you to write a letter because, as has been mentioned, blood is thicker than water. Who cares what they need to see? There is enough out there, for 19 years, to dig their own heads out of the sand. The other side is, you write this letter, she snows them and what then? Apparently, two people STILL need proof, after everything was laid out in front of them. Sorry, I know it is family, but that's just ridiculous.

I'm not going to go through the thread, but you've been dealing with a ton of unhealthy flip-flopping from some of the members of her family.

Do what you have to, but I disagree with it can't hurt. As above poster stated and I'll add, writing a completely *VOLUNTARY LETTER* will trump an out of context, inadmissible voice activated recording ANY DAY.


----------



## strugglinghusband

For the love of Pete, what the hell else do the need? friggin video tapes, they know what she has done, it's like ok we need just a little more, we already know she cheated on Thor for years and years and is a liar, but just a little more proof is all we need for us to truly believe it...and you know what Thor, it will NEVER be enough for some...Never! there will always be some little doubt in the back of thier minds of "maybe, just maybe"...

You need to prove Nothing to anyone, you are a good man, plain and simple, you are a good man!


----------



## husbandfool

You're the only one who needs the proof. You don't have anything to prove to her family. It's up to them to believe you or not and, in the end, that's really not your concern anymore, is it?

They just want you jumping through more hoops.


----------



## Thorburn

I was pis*ed for a minute when he asked me to do that. I told him why do I have to jump through loops. He said it is not for him, he said his middle sister is now convinced but suggested I do one last thing and that is what the youngest BIL agreed. 

I will not do the letter. I will just tell her. In fact my BIL said to me just recently that if I just say it she will get it. A letter is something she can reflect on but I agree anything in writing will be used against me.

I will follow through with it though verbally. Like I said it is not earth shattering it is something simple. They just want to see her reaction to what I say.

Like I said, I believe it has to do with something she lied about to her younger brother and middle sister and my WS's responce will show them that I did indeed tell the truth. 

They know that after I say this that she will call her sister and brother and will not have a leg to stand on. Or she won't call them and that will also confirm what they are looking for.

I think I know what she said, all I have to do is something simple. 

Like I said it is no big deal, I can do it verbally. The letter was so I would not have to talk to her.


----------



## TDSC60

Verbal is best. Especially since you are not in the habit of writing her letters. Getting a letter might ping her "something is amiss" radar.

Verbal for sure - VAR of course.


----------



## SaltInWound

TDSC60 said:


> Verbal is best. Especially since you are not in the habit of writing her letters. Getting a letter might ping her "something is amiss" radar.
> 
> *Verbal for sure - VAR of course*.


:iagree: Get the verbal reaction on tape!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Contact is contact, be it verbal or written. So, if you are going to do either, do the one that stays "he said, she said."


----------



## karole

thorburn said:


> had a long talk with my oldest bil last night. He wants me to do one more thing. It has to do with my youngest bil and middle sil feeling that i am not being honest. I am not going into it, but it is not a big deal. I will write my ws a letter and that will be that. They want to see her response.
> 
> I know i have been told to distance myself from them. They are frustrated and my oldest bil is working hard on getting the entire family on board. These two (middle sil and younger bil) go back and forth and he said they want to see one more thing and see how she reacts. Like i said, no big deal. Write a letter hand it to her and she will have to go from there.
> 
> I guess she has been lying to them again and they want to see how she responds to what i write.
> 
> They are hoping she changes and i feel that they see this as one last hope. I don't, but it can't hurt.



please don't!! You do not need to prove anything to them. You, my dear man, are the only one who counts, you know what she did, your kids know what she did, so forget about her siblings. From what I have read, I think you have bent over backwards to do what you can to save your marriage - have put up with a lot more than a lot of people would so please - for your own sanity - let her go!!


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## MrQuatto

Thorn, after all this time, all this effort and all the inaction on her part, I think the 911 bill / leave it and go take care of yourself plan is the winning option. No one, NO ONE can say you didn't try. She isn't making an effort, nor has she.

Time to end this


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

Thor, If they ask you why you don't want to write the letter, just tell them that a lawer/legal freind advised you not to write it. It's verbal, or nothing. Me personally, I wouldn't do it. Her siblings could have tried to reach out to your stbxw a while ago, instead of squabbling back and forth to each other all this time...


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## Thorburn

I just did it. Talked to her. Told my BIL about it. He said the ball is now totally in her court. He said I did everything possible.

I can't go into all the details. I may later. My oldest BIL has been the hammer with the family. My middle BIL used a sledge hammer on the middle SIL and stopped talking to her when she did not yield and kept saying it was all my fault. My oldest BIL had a long talk with her yesterday and finally got her to see things as they are. Then they had this last requirement of me. I did it.

My oldest BIL has been trying to get the middle SIL and youngest BIL to stop focusing on all the negativity my WS was telling them about me. He wants the focus off me and on their sister's wrong doing.

I think this worked. And it was painless. I even got a long hug from my WS. I truly feel vindicated.


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## Jasel

They really seem to be dragging this out while making excuses to do absolutely nothing. And it seems to be more at your expense than anyone's.


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## MrQuatto

Thorn, I hope your right but I just don't see this having much, if any, effect


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## vi_bride04

*Re: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



Jasel said:


> They really seem to be dragging this out while making excuses to do absolutely nothing. And it seems to be more at your expense than anyone's.


Totally agree....this is where the blood is thicker than water starts to come into play


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## BobSimmons

98 pages and OP is still talking and conferring with In-Laws. To date he hasn't done anything himself, seems to be saddling responsibility and onus on his In-Laws. 

Still in the same place, hoping to win back his wife.

A bit baffling..


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## Thorburn

BobSimmons said:


> 98 pages and OP is still talking and conferring with In-Laws. To date he hasn't done anything himself, seems to be saddling responsibility and onus on his In-Laws.
> 
> Still in the same place, hoping to win back his wife.
> 
> A bit baffling..


Not trying to win her back. Trying to soften her till the time I can file. If I had filed any time from D-day till early this week she would have fought tooth and nail and depending on how I was feeling at the time I would have just said screw it you can have whatever you want. 

By saying what I said it indeed had an impact on her. My oldest BIL was correct (IMO) in my approach and in the words I choose.

He is not pushing for R. His last words to me about this was do whatever I can to get the money for D.

My oldest brother wants me to R. My older sister is a good listener and has given me a safety net if things really go South for me. My two other brothers have their own issues. I have kept my elderly mother out of this for the most part and just talked to her briefly. She has not been well and I do not want to add more stress to her. At least she is is well enough to get out of the house again and is playing cards with her sisters at my one aunt's house.

I did not plan it but the pressure of the in-laws being split I believe is over and that is what my oldest BIL wanted, a unified front. 

My conversations with my WS have been very brief. Last evening it was not like we hugged and made up. I have shown her love and kindness. That is all. That is who I am.

I have shown her strength. I have provided for her when she was lying about it to her family and friends. She worked yesterday and is working today and said she is going to help with the bills. 

In 2004 I came off Active Duty. I had started a new program here in our state in 2001 and I was running 11 centers. I was the supervisor and had soldiers who outranked me working and reporting to me. I worked for two Major Generals and reported to them. I could call them at any time and I did, sometimes 2 A.M. in the morning. The state took over the program and I was offered to stay in my same role but as a civilian. I was told not to do it as my new boss was a jerk. 6 months later I got fired. I started this program from scratch. The Major General brought me on board in 2001 and said prior to bringing me on board, to his staff, if you can't get Mac to do it we are not doing it. The general did not like me personally, but he knew my capabilities and he never said no to me. And man I asked for a lot. 14 vehicles, 40 computers, cell phones, offices space across the state, getting computer lines for military operations wired into buildings. I never got a no from the man. When I switched to being a civilian and relocated all my new boss wanted me to do was answer the phone. I had set every policy, developed every report, hired the staff, I had connections in the Pentagon, Army Generals, Air Force Generals, Navy leaders would call me offering their support. I worked with congress, etc. And now I was answering my bosses phone, (we had a secretary). He hated me. Anyway, I got fired on trumped up charges. I just did not fight it. I did not work for 14 months, just took time off. The Adjudant General of our state fired me. She would not talk to me for years. I would go to military functions and she once sat across the table from me and would not even look at me. I was told to retire. I refused, I said everyone will find out what really happened. My former boss was corrupt. He blamed me for losing $250,000 among other things. Well, once the federal and state investigation started (yes I made some phone calls after I was fired), he resigned and the truth started to come out. People found out that Mac was not corrupt and had told the truth but no one wanted to listen at the time of my hearings, they all thought I was guilty. In 2008, I was in Mississippi training to go to Iraq and the Adjutant General came to visit. There was 200 soldiers in the building (the entire command staff) and she gave a short speech and went around shaking everyone's hand. I tried to get out of the building but couldn't. When she came to me she stopped. Gave me a hug and a kiss and said, "Mac, I heard good things about you, take care of my soldiers". I was the only one from the Colonel on down she hugged and kissed. The staff said to me later, who the hel* are you? The same thing happened at Ft. Polk three months later. She hugged me and kissed me and said, "Mac, I am hearing good things about you, take care of my soldiers". I got an award for being the best NCO to have gone through Ft. Polk JRTC in seven years of unit rotations. When I came back from Iraq the Adjudant General was on the flight line patting everyone on the back as we came off the plane. As I was coming down the steps of the plane, I had three rifles, a ruck pack, two duffle bags. She stopped me. Helped me take my gear off, gave me a hug and a kiss and said, "Mac, you took care of my soldiers". I was the only one she did this to. She is now one of the Assistant Secretary of Defence.

I know what vindication is. I know how to fight and how to be passive. 

Maybe I have not done things correctly, I don't know. All I know is that when things are screwed up I ask for help. I process what I am told and I process the counsel I am given. I have been screwed in life but I never gave up. Fell apart at times but always got back up sometimes lifted up by friends. 

Right now my two older BILs have helped me and it has worked out so far. Things have pretty much gone as they have said. They know my WS and me better than anyone. I am open to disagreement on this and welcome it but so far things have gone fairly well for me and everytime I listened to them and followed through it has been in my favor. That is all I can say about it.


----------



## Fisherman

Thorburn said:


> Not trying to win her back. Trying to soften her till the time I can file. If I had filed any time from D-day till early this week she would have fought tooth and nail and depending on how I was feeling at the time I would have just said screw it you can have whatever you want.
> 
> By saying what I said it indeed had an impact on her. My oldest BIL was correct (IMO) in my approach and in the words I choose.
> 
> He is not pushing for R. His last words to me about this was do whatever I can to get the money for D.
> 
> My oldest brother wants me to R. My older sister is a good listener and has given me a safety net if things really go South for me. My two other brothers have their own issues. I have kept my elderly mother out of this for the most part and just talked to her briefly. She has not been well and I do not want to add more stress to her. At least she is is well enough to get out of the house again and is playing cards with her sisters at my one aunt's house.
> 
> I did not plan it but the pressure of the in-laws being split I believe is over and that is what my oldest BIL wanted, a unified front.
> 
> My conversations with my WS have been very brief. Last evening it was not like we hugged and made up. I have shown her love and kindness. That is all. That is who I am.
> 
> I have shown her strength. I have provided for her when she was lying about it to her family and friends. She worked yesterday and is working today and said she is going to help with the bills.
> 
> In 2004 I came off Active Duty. I had started a new program here in our state in 2001 and I was running 11 centers. I was the supervisor and had soldiers who outranked me working and reporting to me. I worked for two Major Generals and reported to them. I could call them at any time and I did, sometimes 2 A.M. in the morning. The state took over the program and I was offered to stay in my same role but as a civilian. I was told not to do it as my new boss was a jerk. 6 months later I got fired. I started this program from scratch. The Major General brought me on board in 2001 and said prior to bringing me on board, to his staff, if you can't get Mac to do it we are not doing it. The general did not like me personally, but he knew my capabilities and he never said no to me. And man I asked for a lot. 14 vehicles, 40 computers, cell phones, offices space across the state, getting computer lines for military operations wired into buildings. I never got a no from the man. When I switched to being a civilian and relocated all my new boss wanted me to do was answer the phone. I had set every policy, developed every report, hired the staff, I had connections in the Pentagon, Army Generals, Air Force Generals, Navy leaders would call me offering their support. I worked with congress, etc. And now I was answering my bosses phone, (we had a secretary). He hated me. Anyway, I got fired on trumped up charges. I just did not fight it. I did not work for 14 months, just took time off. The Adjudant General of our state fired me. She would not talk to me for years. I would go to military functions and she once sat across the table from me and would not even look at me. I was told to retire. I refused, I said everyone will find out what really happened. My former boss was corrupt. He blamed me for losing $250,000 among other things. Well, once the federal and state investigation started (yes I made some phone calls after I was fired), he resigned and the truth started to come out. People found out that Mac was not corrupt and had told the truth but no one wanted to listen at the time of my hearings, they all thought I was guilty. In 2008, I was in Mississippi training to go to Iraq and the Adjutant General came to visit. There was 200 soldiers in the building (the entire command staff) and she gave a short speech and went around shaking everyone's hand. I tried to get out of the building but couldn't. When she came to me she stopped. Gave me a hug and a kiss and said, "Mac, I heard good things about you, take care of my soldiers". I was the only one from the Colonel on down she hugged and kissed. The staff said to me later, who the hel* are you? The same thing happened at Ft. Polk three months later. She hugged me and kissed me and said, "Mac, I am hearing good things about you, take care of my soldiers". I got an award for being the best NCO to have gone through Ft. Polk JRTC in seven years of unit rotations. When I came back from Iraq the Adjudant General was on the flight line patting everyone on the back as we came off the plane. As I was coming down the steps of the plane, I had three rifles, a ruck pack, two duffle bags. She stopped me. Helped me take my gear off, gave me a hug and a kiss and said, "Mac, you took care of my soldiers". I was the only one she did this to. She is now one of the Assistant Secretary of Defence.
> 
> I know what vindication is. I know how to fight and how to be passive.
> 
> Maybe I have not done things correctly, I don't know. All I know is that when things are screwed up I ask for help. I process what I am told and I process the counsel I am given. I have been screwed in life but I never gave up. Fell apart at times but always got back up sometimes lifted up by friends.
> 
> Right now my two older BILs have helped me and it has worked out so far. Things have pretty much gone as they have said. They know my WS and me better than anyone. I am open to disagreement on this and welcome it but so far things have gone fairly well for me and everytime I listened to them and followed through it has been in my favor. That is all I can say about it.


Hey Mac thank you for your service to our country. You are a good man trying to do the right things. I support and pray for you. God Bless.


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## LostViking

This is an amazing story. Heartbreaking. I salute you sir for the way you have handled this horrible situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

Well I went to the bank and deposited some cash. Got money in there to pay bills so I will do that later. I know my WS got paid and I will see what she does with the check, she has not said a word to me about it. She has been spending money for groceries (I don't mind that) and spent money on other items and has not said a word to me. All I want her to do right now is do what she promised and that is give me money to help with bills. We shall see.

My oldest BIL said to me that what I did the other night might have given my WS false hope. I said, what are you saying? He said no one has spoken to her but she might have interpreted what you did as giving her hope that you are not going through with D. He said you need to talk to her about it. I told him no way. I am done. I did what you wanted me to do and that is it. You need to talk to her or someone does. I gave her a letter stating clearly that I am going to D her. I have not changed my posture and I told him if you think I sent mixed messages then someone in her family need to convey to her that I have not changed my mind. I said I will only speak to her about money and bills. He said well no one is talking to her right now and you are there. I said, I want to make this clear. I did everything you asked me to do and I did not mind doing it. He said she might be deceived into thinking that you are not going to follow through with D. I said that is not my problem and I will not make it my problem. I said get a spokesman or ignore it. I told him I will no longer be the middle man between the family and her. I shared this with my middle BIL yesterday and he gets it. He said he does not know what to say to his sister. I know what it is with these two. If they talk to her they are going to go ballistic on her. I told him that and I said I understand. I said just wait there is no need to confront her now.

I told both of them I will not engage her that I am detaching and will continue to do so. I said I understand your frustrations in not being able to communicate with her and I understand that you see her as this horrible person who has done horrible things and you want her to change. She may never change and I said I can't change her and neither can the two of you.

They both said they are supporting me.

I do understand their frustrations with their sister. They get it but feel that I am here and once I am out of the picture then what? I sent them a text stating again that I will not be their spokesman that is now up to her family to figure out what they want to do and please leave me out of it.

My BIL was concerned that my special needs son will go ballistic because he feels that our marriage is going to work out. I said no he doesn't. I said he is sitting here right now listening to our conversation and I told him that I will D his mother. I told him that you (my oldest BIL), his brother, my pastor and everyone else has told me to D his mother. I said he knows my intent. Once I said that My oldest BIL backed down. 

I said once I get a handle on the bills I will be able to set money aside for D and once I do I will file. I said do not misunderstand that, I will file. He said Mac you are right there is no other option.

when I talked to my pastor last night I shared this with him. He said of course you are going to file there have been too many years of cheating but you are praying for her to repent (he asked that as a question)? I said absolutely but not for me to take her back but only for her own sake. He said good.


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## Fisherman

I think you handled it right. Your doing what you have too.


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## Thorburn

My special needs son went off on me again today. Man does he mirror my WS's moods. I could tell she is mad today just by how he acts. And I just got home and she is mad. Came into my room and said something and she is mad and I did not do anything to her.

Anyway, my son asked me to take him to a park with the dog. I had Christian music on and he went off. F this F you, F God, F Jesus, F mom. He said this is all Jesus' F'ing fault since mom is not repenting. As I was driving I just let him vent. We got to the park and went hiking. He opened up and shared a lot with me. He even told me stuff about the OM's that his mother shared with him. He thinks she is suicidal.

We had a great time, he calmed down and we had a good long talk. I just let his rants roll off me. I do not take them personally and like I said, he just mirrors his Mother's mood. He did tell me at one point that this is all my fault and I said, Son, stop lying and stop repeating your mother's lies. I said I am done with you, your mother or anyone else blaming me for your mother's wrongs and I will not put up with it. He said, dad I am sorry. He said mom is a ***** and I want her to change and not go to hell and I am mad at God for not changing her. We talked about that and he calmed down.

We went out to eat and by that time he was in a great mood.

My youngest BIL is calling me tonight he is worried about his sister and I guess they are not talking. I am not sure.


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## karole

Thorburn you are dealing with an unreal amount of stress. Please take time for yourself. You need to take care of you. I honestly don't know how you are handling things as well as you are. Saying a prayer for you.


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## Thorburn

karole said:


> Thorburn you are dealing with an unreal amount of stress. Please take time for yourself. You need to take care of you. I honestly don't know how you are handling things as well as you are. Saying a prayer for you.


Actually I am doing great. Feel grounded and at peace. I think it was Mike that posted a while ago and said I learn as I teach. I teach this stuff to Veterans every day on how to handle their PTSD, stress, anxiety, depression, etc. I am finally putting it into practice. Going to church, praying, meditating on scripture. Have a good support network and folks praying for me. I do groups every other week on two inpatient psych wards and I see the worse of mental problems. 

Can't explain it. Last year I raged and drank. This year peace and calm. I can only control my emotions and my reactions to things. I can't control my WS nor my son only my reaction.

Not saying I don't have my moments but they are far and few between now. 

I see my WS is mad now and I don't get it. I was at work most of today and then took my son to the park. I noticed that she was preparing for Easter but I do not plan on being around much tomorrow. I certainly will not be eating with her. I am detaching and I am following an old Amish tradition of shunning her and that means we can't be "at table" together. "Being at table" means eating together. She can do whatever she wants. I plan on taking my son out tomorrow for Easter.


----------



## CantSitStill

Thorburn said:


> My special needs son went off on me again today. Man does he mirror my WS's moods. I could tell she is mad today just by how he acts. And I just got home and she is mad. Came into my room and said something and she is mad and I did not do anything to her.
> 
> Anyway, my son asked me to take him to a park with the dog. I had Christian music on and he went off. F this F you, F God, F Jesus, F mom. He said this is all Jesus' F'ing fault since mom is not repenting. As I was driving I just let him vent. We got to the park and went hiking. He opened up and shared a lot with me. He even told me stuff about the OM's that his mother shared with him. He thinks she is suicidal.
> 
> We had a great time, he calmed down and we had a good long talk. I just let his rants roll off me. I do not take them personally and like I said, he just mirrors his Mother's mood. He did tell me at one point that this is all my fault and I said, Son, stop lying and stop repeating your mother's lies. I said I am done with you, your mother or anyone else blaming me for your mother's wrongs and I will not put up with it. He said, dad I am sorry. He said mom is a ***** and I want her to change and not go to hell and I am mad at God for not changing her. We talked about that and he calmed down.
> 
> We went out to eat and by that time he was in a great mood.
> 
> My youngest BIL is calling me tonight he is worried about his sister and I guess they are not talking. I am not sure.


Proud of you for how you handled it with your son. You are a strong man but remember, you cannot possibly please everyone..boy wouldn't that be nice, but you know that's impossible so for now you have to think about your needs and not worry about anyone elses. Sounds like you are doing really good so far. I know it has to be hard and I really feel for you, keep on keepin on. You'll be fine. Keep the faith 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

My Golden Retriever "Rudy" has been sleeping with me. I don't cage him like we normally do and let him sleep in bed with me. He loves our king size tempurpedic bed and I don't even notice him unless he comes over and licks me. Funny, I never let him do that before, lick me. I just laugh now. 

My WS was on CL trying to get a new bed telling the person that her back is bothering her. The person wrote back and said the bed is gone. Nothing my WS tries to do is working out for her. I feel sorry that she has a bad back and has to sleep upstairs on an antique rope bed, I really really do. At least she did not cut our $2000.00 bed in half like she threatened to do a month ago.


----------



## just got it 55

Thorburn You know what they say about hitting yourself in the head with a hammer

IT FEELS SO GOOD WHEN YOU STOP

I have read through the entire story It seems you have indeed stopped

Best of Luck Thanks for your service 
Thank You for your part in defending My and my Family's freedom
God Bless You


----------



## MattMatt

Thorburn said:


> My Golden Retriever "Rudy" has been sleeping with me. I don't cage him like we normally do and let him sleep in bed with me. He loves our king size tempurpedic bed and I don't even notice him unless he comes over and licks me. Funny, I never let him do that before, lick me. I just laugh now.
> 
> *My WS was on CL trying to get a new bed telling the person that her back is bothering her.* The person wrote back and said the bed is gone. Nothing my WS tries to do is working out for her. I feel sorry that she has a bad back and has to sleep upstairs on an antique rope bed, I really really do. At least she did not cut our $2000.00 bed in half like she threatened to do a month ago.


Mmmm. That'd be the fact that your wife lacks a spine, then?:scratchhead:


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## Thorburn

MattMatt said:


> Mmmm. That'd be the fact that your wife lacks a spine, then?:scratchhead:


Actually the reference to a bad back is mute when you hear the recording from Feb 13th. Her back was not bothering her then or maybe that is the cause of her bad back. Might be caused by her breeding technique. Oh, I am not being nice tonight. The way she explains it I was never nice to her. Oh well, like my oldest BIL told his middle sister, where were the complaints about Mac from our sister in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009. Her complaints did not start till 2010 and guess what? Mac found out she was cheating on him. And you (the middle sister) and her (my WS) were not talking during that time and you did not start talking to her until April 2012 and all you heard were complaints about Mac, and what do you expect? He says put it in context. Mac found out our sister was cheating on him and he got angry, hmmmm. Then she kept lying to him, hmmmmm. Then she cheated again and again and kept lying to him and to us, hmmmm.


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## MattMatt

Thorburn said:


> Actually the reference to a bad back is mute when you hear the recording from Feb 13th. Her back was not bothering her then or maybe that is the cause of her bad back. Might be caused by her breeding technique. Oh, I am not being nice tonight. The way she explains it I was never nice to her. Oh well, like my oldest BIL told his middle sister, where were the complaints about Mac from our sister in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009. Her complaints did not start till 2010 and guess what? Mac found out she was cheating on him. And you (the middle sister) and her (my WS) were not talking during that time and you did not start talking to her until April 2012 and all you heard were complaints about Mac, and what do you expect? He says put it in context. Mac found out our sister was cheating on him and he got angry, hmmmm. Then she kept lying to him, hmmmmm. Then she cheated again and again and kept lying to him and to us, hmmmm.


Well, actually, Thorburn, I did think of her escapades in the car and wondered if maybe she should try sleeping in the car, with her feet out of the bloody rear window?


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## Thorburn

MattMatt said:


> Well, actually, Thorburn, I did think of her escapades in the car and wondered if maybe she should try sleeping in the car, with her feet out of the bloody rear window?


She still has the bed in her car (my car too). :scratchhead:

I guess old habits are hard to break.:banghead:


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## phillybeffandswiss

Thorburn said:


> Can't explain it. Last year I raged and drank.
> 
> I see my WS is mad now and I don't get it.


Yes you do. If you analyze it carefully you know exactly what happened, she is mirroring your former actions.
When your world was destroyed, you raged and drank. You had to deal with consequences and a world out of control, while she continued in her realm unaffected.

This time, you fully destroyed her world and now she is raging. Now, she is the one dealing with the same consequences as you. The difference is SHE is the one with little to no support. Plus, the former crutch, you, has been pulled almost completely away.

She is in frefall and this time, you aren't there to catch her. Now, people know the truth and she can't bad mouth you, so the secondary net is falling apart.


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## arbitrator

Thorburn: Coming from an "old fart," it just fastly dawned on me from having read one of your posts, that when someone that you have pledged your life, presence, and the preservation of your mutual well-being to, out of the act of unrequited love; made in vows before God, the pastors or legal entities performing the ceremony, your family, your children, your friends and neighbors, your fellow parishoners, and your community in general; and they have chosen to wantonly violate the spirit and intent of those most sacred vows by lowering themselves into the voluntary participation of physical or non-physical infidelity, albeit overt or covert; not only have they broken those vows against their spouse, but they have largely broken those vows, not only against all of those aforementioned entities who bore witness to that ceremony, but also to those who were not present but had the general and accepted knowledge that those vows actually took place!

Call it progressive or flawed logic if you will, but by its spirit and intent, a cheater has a lot of explaining and rationalizing to do before everyone that they made those vows before, either directly or indirectly, through the jaded veil of deception or self-justification!

With rare exception, I firmly believe that, in the end, the cheater will come to reap their true reward!


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## dogman

arbitrator said:


> Thorburn: Coming from an "old fart," it just fastly dawned on me from having read one of your posts, that when someone that you have pledged your life, presence, and the preservation of your mutual well-being to, out of the act of unrequited love; made in vows before God, the pastors or legal entities performing the ceremony, your family, your children, your friends and neighbors, your fellow parishoners, and your community in general; and they have chosen to wantonly violate the spirit and intent of those most sacred vows by lowering themselves into the voluntary participation of physical or non-physical infidelity, albeit overt or covert; not only have they broken those vows against their spouse, but they have largely broken those vows, not only against all of those aforementioned entities who bore witness to that ceremony, but also to those who were not present but had the general and accepted knowledge that those vows actually took place!
> 
> Call it progressive or flawed logic if you will, but by its spirit and intent, a cheater has a lot of explaining and rationalizing to do before everyone that they made those vows before, either directly or indirectly, through the jaded veil of deception or self-justification!
> 
> With rare exception, I firmly believe that, in the end, the cheater will come to reap their true reward!


This is well said!
And it needs to be said more often!


----------



## Thorburn

What a weird day. My son asked me to go to church with him. I did. He started acting weird in church and I ended up taking him out of the service, called an ambulance and had him taken to the E.R. He is OK but man.

Then my middle BIL forwarded me a text from someone in the family saying that Mac needs to shut up and stop acting self righteous as he is sowing what he has reaped. My middle BIL says this is so stupid and he is working on them. I said, I don't care what they say. He said hang in there he said I know your heart and it is good.


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## SaltInWound

Glad to hear your son is ok and that you were there for him. I now that can be scary. 

Good that you can let the negativity roll off your back. Sounds like she found more "followers" who would rather look for negativity in you, rather than the fact that your wife, their flesh and blood, participates in an activity that can kill her, either by hooking up with a lunatic, or catching a fatal disease and is ruining her future by losing you. Just boggles my mind. :scratchhead:


----------



## Thorburn

SaltInWound said:


> Glad to hear your son is ok and that you were there for him. I now that can be scary.
> 
> Good that you can let the negativity roll off your back. Sounds like she found more "followers" who would rather look for negativity in you, rather than the fact that your wife, their flesh and blood, participates in an activity that can kill her, either by hooking up with a lunatic, or catching a fatal disease and is ruining her future by losing you. Just boggles my mind. :scratchhead:


It is the middle SIL. When I saw, Mac needs to shut up - that is right out of her mouth. My WS hated her sister from Sept 2008 till last year in April 2012 when our BIL died and my WS decided to make up with her. The stuff my WS use to say about her family. I kept telling her this makes no sense. Well it does now as our dead BIL told the family that my WS did it because she did not want people around (they lived a few miles away) because she was cheating on me.

Like I said, her middle sister is nuts and flip flops. The last time I talked to her she was so confused. She would say something and then say the opposite. It was weird talking to her. I have no interest in talking to her.


----------



## Shaggy

Mac.

Time to go dark, on her family. They are almost worse than she is.

Fact: she is a remorseless serial cheater for 19 years at least

Fact: you now finally see the truth,she has no interest in changing,and as such no interest in stopping.

Fact: you need to shut down and move on with your life. Her family is never ever going to help. Oh, a few of them might talk with you, even agree with you. But none of them is helping you.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Mac.
> 
> Time to go dark, on her family. They are almost worse than she is.
> 
> Fact: she is a remorseless serial cheater for 19 years at least
> 
> Fact: you now finally see the truth,she has no interest in changing,and as such no interest in stopping.
> 
> Fact: you need to shut down and move on with your life. Her family is never ever going to help. Oh, a few of them might talk with you, even agree with you. But none of them is helping you.


Thanks Shaggy, I needed to hear this. Going dark on them will be hard for me. I had the same thought this morning as I was having my devotions. I have been listening to others here on TAM who have said the same thing. I have to think about it. I know that there are some things I have to do and I have not done those things. 

I have to get busy with getting my professional liscense and i will send an email this morning to get that started.

I have to get another job. I have some ideas that has proved sucessful in the past and I just have to get my rear in gear.

I will try to not respond to the family today. I know that eventually they will start contacting me wondering what is going on. All they get from my WS is filtered through my middle SIL and younger BIL. 

I have to start exercising harder. I have not run since I came back from Iraq, I use to love running, and I just turned it off. I have been walking. I gained weight, quite a bit, my WS never complained when I gained weight, she did complain once when I was losing weight. Now I am lighter then I have been since the 80's feeling great and I hope to loose a few more pounds and one more pants size.

Once I get the funds for D I will file. I know what I want out of D, not sure if I can get it, but I am hoping we can work it out. Too many factors to consider and to many ifs so I am not focused on it, I just know what I want and can't worry about it now. 

I have tons of projects at home that I have to start addressing. I would like to finish the sunroom, I have barn beams to put up, trim around the windows, rewiring lights and do the floor. I have tons of nails to take out of the hardwood flooring I got from a rabbi and once that is done I can start laying the floor. I have some plumbing issues and electrical stuff I have to fix. Nothing that I can't do myself. 

I have started to invest more time in my sons and that is paying off. I want them to get involved more with each other. Due to the tension my oldest son has been resistant but that has changed over the last week so maybe this weekend I can take him to see his brother. 

I am hoping my WS leaves but I don't know her plans at this point and I really don't care. The hardness of her heart and the anger I see on her face even yesterday is just unbelievable. We see it so often here on TAM, the radical change.

I have found peace but i can't rest in that. I have to continue to take care of my boys and myself and keep moving forward.


----------



## turnera

Start the 100 pushups a day thing.


----------



## vi_bride04

turnera said:


> Start the 100 pushups a day thing.


Great workout! I highly recommend. I can do 30 full pushups so far. When I started in Dec I could barely do 5 girlie pushups. 

I took about a month off or I would say I would be up to 50-60 full pushups.


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## turnera

Some guy on the radio said he was doing 300 a day. :O


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## debster

Thorburn said:


> I have to get another job. I have some ideas that has proved sucessful in the past and I just have to get my rear in gear.


Why do you have to get a new job? I thought you were being groomed to replace your boss. :scratchhead:


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## Thorburn

debster said:


> Why do you have to get a new job? I thought you were being groomed to replace your boss. :scratchhead:



I am looking for something part-time.


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## Thorburn

All right I failed at not talking to family. My middle SIL called my youngest son and they talked and he wanted me to call her. I have not talked to her in a while and said I would never talk to her again. Well sucker that I am I talked to her. Yes I did, for over two hours. She gets it now. She blasted my WS last Tuesday for lying and what my son told her made her want to talk to me.

Man oh man, is my WS more messed up than I thought.


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## LostViking

Is this the sister that is not mentally stable?

I would not trust her to stay on your side for too long.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## awake1

Thorburn said:


> All right I failed at not talking to family. My middle SIL called my youngest son and they talked and he wanted me to call her. I have not talked to her in a while and said I would never talk to her again. Well sucker that I am I talked to her. Yes I did, for over two hours. She gets it now. She blasted my WS last Tuesday for lying and what my son told her made her want to talk to me.
> 
> Man oh man, is my WS more messed up than I thought.


Yep, they all are. You see what you want to see, not what is really there. By the time you realize what you're in for it's too late. The quicksand is too deep. 

They don't show their true colors often until down the road when you have kids and responsibility. When you're already on their hook. 

I'd do your best to let it go, to let her go and try to forget she exists. Put her out of sight and out of mind as much as possible. Don't bury your head in the sand, just look the other way.

I wouldn't even engage in conversation about her unless it's necessary.


----------



## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> Is this the sister that is not mentally stable?
> 
> I would not trust her to stay on your side for too long.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My middle BIL texted me and said she gets it now, he said he had a long talk with her yesterday. My conversation with my middle SIL was pleasant not like the ones we had before. She told me a lot of things I had no clue about. She asked me questions about what my WS said to her and I was able to show her that she is lying. She said last Tuesday was it for her. She was talking to my WS and she said I knew she was lying and I blasted her. She said my WS is now cold to her. My middle SIL did not sound confused and whenever I answered a question she would say I know that is the truth. She says my WS is so convincing and she said she knows now when she is lying. She said this is so unbelievable and is not the sister she grew up with nor is it the way she was raised. She says she does not know what happened. 

I don't look but my WS has a campaign about battered and abuse women on her FB. She says she has been abused by me for over 30 years. My middle SIL said I am sorry but she started laughing, she says this is so ridiculous.

I have said this before, if any of you knew my WS you would find this incredible. If I did not have the recording I would find most of this hard to believe as well.

I don't know who this person is.

My middle SIL said something interesting. Before their mother died she would pray with my middle SIL and asked my middle SIL for my WS to become a Christian. My WS's mother did not believe my WS was a Christian. Yet my WS tells me how her mother was the only one who understood her.


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## Tony55

I don't mingle with relatives, I send the occasional seasons greeting or happy birthday, but beyond that I prefer the company of my friends. And guess what, I'm on good terms with all my relatives (how can I not be, I never see them).

Your posts remind me of why I do this.

T


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## karole

You need a break Thorburn. Do you have a friend you could go spend a few days with out of town?


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## LostViking

Yes you need to get away from this business. Too much close proximity to the wife and her family are skewing your view of the big picture. Go on an unplanned vacation and go somewhere no one can find you. Keep your phone turned off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

karole said:


> You need a break Thorburn. Do you have a friend you could go spend a few days with out of town?


I am planning to spend a day with my youngest son. I have tons of leave and am thinking of taking a week off. My vacation plans this year was to go to Scotland but that won't happen. 

Have to think about it. Yes I have friends that I could go visit. 

You know it is strange that I no longer feel attached to my WS. I didn't think I would get there. I am not saying I don't have pangs from time to time but I do see my future without her. 

My oldest son wanted me to take him to a park last night and I did. He started crying and said if I divorce his mother he is going to kill himself and was angry. I kept asking him to talk to me. At one point I fell on the ground and prayed, I just could not take it. My son had walked away. When we got back to the truck I prayed for him and then I told him off. I said stop blaming me and stop believing your mother's lies. On the way home he went off again. Ironic he did not use any curse words in any of his rants. I pulled over and told him to knock it off. I said don't you know your mother is going to hell if she does not repent, has brought ruin on several marriages by being a ***** with married men and she is still doing it. I said I am going to divorce your mother. He said no mom is changing. I said your mother is going to hell, has destroyed this family and others now knock it off. We got home and he told his mother what I said, (I thought good). He then asked me to take him to a Christian bookstore. It was late but one was opned and we went and found a book and I ordered another book for him. This morning I went up to his room before work and he was sitting in bed reading his Bible. I prayed with him and left. 

Yesterday I just had enough of it. I am glad I got angry because it did reach my son. I told him I will always be there for him and that I have his back. I told him I am not sorry for getting angry and all I want him to do is stop attacking me. 

Like I said, at least he is not cursing at me. I told him to keep loving this mother but do not buy her lies. 

I felt like I was in control last night even with getting angry. 

I also told my son that I will stand against him thinking of killing himself. 

I really have to think about getting away. I don't know if that would be the best at this time for me to do.


----------



## karole

Thornburn - I am glad you want to spend time with your children, but you need to get away from them too. Go spend some time with someone who isn't related to you or your STBXW - or go someplace by yourself. Just get in your car and drive - you don't even need a particular destination - just drive til you find a place you want to stop.


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## LostViking

Thorburn, is your son on government assistence? Does he receive SSI? As a mentally challenged young adult I would imagine he qualifies. Can you not get him into a group home and away from his mother? I can't see her being anything but a negative force in his life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> Thorburn, is your son on government assistence? Does he receive SSI? As a mentally challenged young adult I would imagine he qualifies. Can you not get him into a group home and away from his mother? I can't see her being anything but a negative force in his life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He does get assistance. I would not want to send him to a group home. He never did well in that type of setting. If I could find a camp for him to go to that would benefit him. I have been looking for that option just to get him away. He refuses to work with Goodwill or Mh/MR. He had a "bad" experience with them. It was not bad as far as I was concerned but in his mind he made it a big deal and just will not even consider it. He knows he is different but will not avail himself to the services that he could recieve due to things that happened more than 8 years ago. He has bathroom issues that he very obsessive about, I had him in therapy years ago for this and nothing worked. He has a daily schedule and he plans everything around it.


----------



## LostViking

I only mention it because it seems to me that the situation with the care of your son is going to be one of those issues that will keep you tied to your wife. 

Since your son is essentially a "man child" who you will have to take care of for the rest of your life, would he be better off living with you or with your wife? That's why I asked if he qualified to live in a group home setting.


----------



## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> I only mention it because it seems to me that the situation with the care of your son is going to be one of those issues that will keep you tied to your wife.
> 
> Since your son is essentially a "man child" who you will have to take care of for the rest of your life, would he be better off living with you or with your wife? That's why I asked if he qualified to live in a group home setting.


We will work it out one way or the other. My middle SIL told me yesterday that my WS is counting on his money which not a lot. 

I hope he can stay with me but that will be his decision and also what housing we end up having. 

I wish I could file but am being patient under the circumstances. 

I am actually looking forward to the time I can file.


----------



## Thorburn

I don't even know where to begin on this one. I stayed at the office later then normal. Got in my truck and got hit with what I can only describe as an evil presence. I had this once before but did not recall it right away. It came to me later after I got home what this was. As I was driving I texted my two BILs and my middle SIL describing what I was feeling. My oldest son called me and said, "dad, don't get mad but mom is out with friends tonight". I said right. 

I have pretty much detached from my WS and did not prior to this get upset with where she was. But last night was different. I felt a very presence of evil and it kept getting stronger. I got home and my son wanted to go to the park. I said wait and I called my middle SIL. She said there is something wrong with my sister I feel it. I told her what I was experiencing and thought she would think I was nuts. She said no, Mac, I am feeling the same thing. I got off the phone and texted my middle BIL who is more or less Pentacostal and asked him what the heck is going on here. He stated that he was busy but he said he feels that there is a spirit of death and told me how to pray. I called my middle SIL and she said yes that is it and we prayed. 

Keep in mind I am not one who deals in demons, spiritual warfare, etc this is out of my normal experience. 

Then it dawned on me where I had this feeling before. I was in Iraq. I had to go out on a mission and felt like I was not going to come back alive. I never had this feeling before it was just an evil presence. I remember writing a letter to my WS and my First Sergeant and laying the letters on my pillow stating that if they are reading these letters that I have been killed. I got down to our briefing area and recieved the brief. What radio freqs. we would be using, ambush points, enemy activity, where we would go for medivac, etc. Our vehicles were ready to go and we were getting ready to load up and go. We were in a convoy with another unit of military police and we had to go quite a distance in hostile territory. The Sergeant Major came out and said my mission was cancelled for the time being. And the Military police took off. They were ambushed about an hour later and several soldiers were killed. That was the convoy I was supposed to have been on. I did not know about the ambush till later in the day. I went back to my office and my WS got on chat. She asked me if I am OK and I said yes. She said her middle brother called her and said that he and his wife stayed up all night praying for me because they felt I was in danger. She then said the elderly neighbor lady came to visit saying that God woke her up in the middle of the night and she prayed an hour for me sensing that I was in danger. My WS asked me again, what is going on? I said you know better then to ask me about my missions, I am OK. It was around this time that the report came in about the soldiers that were killed and I told my WS that you would not believe this but I will have to tell you later. 

I can't explain it. But that same feeling came upon me last evening. And it went away after my middle SIL and I prayed on the phone. 

Is Mac cracking up? I just felt like something horrible was going to happen to my WS.

Then my WS came home at 10. Typically I do not say a word to her. She looked like she just had sex (but who knows) I said how was your evening? She said I had a good time. 

She went up to see my son. I followed her up and asked her, so are you saying that the sex tonight was better than February 13th or the 7th. (My son remained quiet the entire time which is also another amazing thing). My WS said I don't know what you are talking about, I went out with two of my GFs. And she followed me downstairs. She said why are you so upset? I said I am tired of your lies and cheating. She said what lies and cheating. I laid it out. She said I am not lying. I said stop. You told your family that I threatened to kill you. She said you did, I said stop it I did not threaten you ever. I said you lied about me cutting you off from the money. She said you did. I said I did not and I sent bank statements to your family to prove your lies. I said stop lying and cheating. I said you are caught, there is no more hiding and lying your way out of this. I am now talking to your sister and we have made up. My WS said so my entire family is going to gang up on me? I said maybe, you made a mess. You have ruined this family, and I named the other families that she ruined. I said you are a ***** and if you died tonight that is what we will remember you as, a *****. She listened for the most part and then said you are going off a lot of assumptions. I said all you want is proof of what you did, come clean, if there is no proof then it did not happen, right? I said stop this. We are all tired of your lies and cheating.

There was quite a bit more said but this is the jist of it.

She then said I am going to meet with your pastor and follow what he says. I said good, you will find him and his wife to be good folks and I left.

Man, I just felt like I had to do this last night.

This morning, she came down and said, I woke up in the middle of the night and all these Bible verses flooded my mind and gave me a hug and said "Mac I am going to work this out". I said I still love you but I am following through with my plans.

I shared this with my youngest son and he said dad be careful she is good at lying. I said I know and don't worry yet. My middle SIL called me this morning and said the same thing, that she is good at lying. It took her till last week to figure it out that her sister is lying.


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## Thorburn

My oldest son talked to me afterward and said he heard everything. I said are you upset and he said no. He said he is working on his life with God.


----------



## happyman64

What a shame you did not have the var in her car again.

All you would have had to do is play it for her.

You know what you have to do.....


----------



## MattMatt

Something similar happened to my FIL when he was on active service with special forces. He managed to keep his patrol safe from an ambush. So I certainly believe you. Your WW was probably in grave danger but either got lucky or the prayers worked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

I have no doubts that prayer works. And I have no doubts regarding your feelings. God is great and He listens.


----------



## Thorburn

happyman64 said:


> What a shame you did not have the var in her car again.
> 
> All you would have had to do is play it for her.
> 
> You know what you have to do.....


I really think she had sex last night. I don't think she was with GFs. She has none here. And I am done with VARs. I don't need anything more to show her. She asked last night to here the recording so she can defend herself. I said no you know what you did and stop lying.


----------



## happyman64

Thorburn said:


> I really think she had sex last night. I don't think she was with GFs. She has none here. And I am done with VARs. I don't need anything more to show her. She asked last night to here the recording so she can defend herself. I said no you know what you did and stop lying.


You took the best approach.

Stay steadfast.


----------



## MattMatt

Thorburn said:


> I really think she had sex last night. I don't think she was with GFs. She has none here. And I am done with VARs. I don't need anything more to show her. She asked last night to here the recording so she can defend herself. I said no you know what you did and stop lying.


Does she even realise she is lying? My MIL cheated her way through five or six husbands. She tells lies but I am sure she does not know they are lies, as she convinces herself, first, that they are true.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Thorburn said:


> I really think she had sex last night. I don't think she was with GFs. She has none here. And I am done with VARs. I don't need anything more to show her. She asked last night to here the recording so she can defend herself. I said no you know what you did and stop lying.


What was your goal in confronting her? How does it help you in moving forward with your life?


----------



## Chaparral

Did you tell her about the feelings you and your in laws had and how everyone was praying for her? 

What happened to the intervention plan?


----------



## LostViking

Unbelievable. Thorburn, you must do everything you can, as quickly as you can, to get away from this woman. 

I am not a believer in religion. I was raised Lutheran but my family were not devout. I don't know anything about demons and such things, but I do believe in the psychic bonds that are sometimes developed between husband and wife. 

I think your wife feels both "good" and "evil" when she engages in these sexual trysts. I think what you pick up on are those negative feelings or "vibes" coming from her when she does this. I have heard that many experienced soldiers develop a sixth sense about impending danger, and I believe that boosts your perception of your wife's emotions that much more. 

Be that as it may, your wife is engaging in very risky, very dangerous activity when she meets up with these strange men. One day her luck will run out, and you need to be as far removed from her emotionally and geographically as you can when it goes down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> Unbelievable. Thorburn, you must do everything you can, as quickly as you can, to get away from this woman.
> 
> I am not a believer in religion. I was raised Lutheran but my family were not devout. I don't know anything about demons and such things, but I do believe in the psychic bonds that are sometimes developed between husband and wife.
> 
> I think your wife feels both "good" and "evil" when she engages in these sexual trysts. I think what you pick up on are those negative feelings or "vibes" coming from her when she does this. I have heard that many experienced soldiers develop a sixth sense about impending danger, and I believe that boosts your perception of your wife's emotions that much more.
> 
> Be that as it may, your wife is engaging in very risky, very dangerous activity when she meets up with these strange men. One day her luck will run out, and you need to be as far removed from her emotionally and geographically as you can when it goes down.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I also was raised Lutheran. I do agree with you about psychic bonds.


----------



## Thorburn

chapparal said:


> Did you tell her about the feelings you and your in laws had and how everyone was praying for her?
> 
> What happened to the intervention plan?


Yes I told her that. Her response was I guess my family is going to gang up on me. I said you need to run to your family, they love you and can help you. She said I will not share this with them. Yet she has been with some of them, the ones she manipulated.

The intervention plan is still in the works. They feel she is not ready and that is what the pros I talked with said. The two older BILs want everyone in the family to be on board. My middle SIL just did this past week. The youngest BIL is almost there. They do not want her to split the family if they approach her and right now there is still one hanging on to her stories. They do not want her to be able to run to a family member. Right now it is 4 to 1 and they want everyone on board.


----------



## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> I have to start exercising harder. I have not run since I came back from Iraq, I use to love running, and I just turned it off. I have been walking.


If you've done 30+ and you still have your original knees, quit running while you are ahead. My friends who did the full 20+ alive usually are looking at knee replacement. Keep walking, but start lifting. Do the heavy compound movements. 



Thorburn said:


> I gained weight, quite a bit, my WS never complained when I gained weight, she did complain once when I was losing weight.


She wanted you that way, because the fat lowered your SMV. She didn't want any younger, hotter women coming after you and stealing her meal ticket. 




Thorburn said:


> Now I am lighter then I have been since the 80's feeling great and I hope to loose a few more pounds and one more pants size.


Six pack, man.


----------



## KanDo

Thor,

Please stop all this interaction both with her and your in-laws. It is not healthy or helpful. MOVE ON! Deal only with issues that you must.


----------



## Machiavelli

turnera said:


> Start the 100 pushups a day thing.


Actually, it's a waste of time and not a good idea for a guy over 35. Too much repetitive motion. Slow decline bench press for 80 seconds at or near failure will yield much, much more muscle.


----------



## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> My middle SIL said something interesting. Before their mother died she would pray with my middle SIL and asked my middle SIL for my WS to become a Christian. *My WS's mother did not believe my WS was a Christian.* Yet my WS tells me how her mother was the only one who understood her.


Sounds like your MIL was in fact the only one who understood her enough to know this fact. Your MIL died a few years back, right?


----------



## Thorburn

Machiavelli said:


> Sounds like your MIL was in fact the only one who understood her enough to know this fact. Your MIL died a few years back, right?


My middle SIL also told me that my WS got her involved in online sex with men back in 1999. Her husband walked in on her one day and found her on the computer doing this. I had a keylogger installed and that is how I busted my WS back then. 

I talked to my BIL back in 1999 or 2000 about it. My SIL also told me that when my WS came to visit her husband started to drink again (he was an alcoholic) and my SIL felt my WS had an evil spirit then. My SIL said she does not want any more secrets.

I told my WS last night that her sister shared with me how she got her involved with online sex in 1999. My WS was shocked that her sister told me that. That is about the time I told her she has been exposed and to stop lying and cheating. I said your secrets are being revealed. I said that she is the one who has been a bad influence and it is time to stop blaming me and others. I said stop playing the victim.


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## Thorburn

Machiavelli said:


> Sounds like your MIL was in fact the only one who understood her enough to know this fact. Your MIL died a few years back, right?


Around June 2011 she died.


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## LostViking

I know you want to your WW to get help and start on the road to recovery so as to smooth the divorce and make it easier to split up with her, but isn't your constant confrontations with her having the opposite effect?

I know you FEEL like you need to say these things, but your cooler head should prevail. You need to stop doing this. As long as you show her you continue to care, she will think she has her hooks in you and nothing will change. It will only fuel her determination to continue on with her rotten behavior, because deep down she feels like she still has you under her thumb. 

You need to stop caring and quit sharing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> Around June 2011 she died.


So, MIL's recent opinion on the state of STBXW's spiritual standing was nil. In the case of your STBX, it's really hard to know where the ordinary wickedness ends and the downright evil starts, but corrupting her loved ones and pulling drunks off the wagon (I have a theory, as do you) has to be a little past the wicked spectrum. Thorburn, when you're free of her, I think you will find your steps to be light upon the earth in ways you can't even imagine.


----------



## karole

LostViking said:


> I know you want to your WW to get help and start on the road to recovery so as to smooth the divorce and make it easier to split up with her, but isn't your constant confrontations with her having the opposite effect?
> 
> I know you FEEL like you need to say these things, but your cooler head should prevail. You need to stop doing this. As long as you show her you continue to care, she will think she has her hooks in you and nothing will change. It will only fuel her determination to continue on with her rotten behavior, because deep down she feels like she still has you under her thumb.
> 
> You need to stop caring and quit sharing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wish I could like this post a hundred times!

Thorburn - it is not my place to judge whether or not your wife is a Christian - that's between her and God; but, assume she isn't, but she decides to turn her life over to God, does a complete turnaround with her life, owns up to all her mistakes, apologizes, starts living a real Christian lifestyle - would you consider taking her back?


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## Tall Average Guy

LostViking said:


> I know you want to your WW to get help and start on the road to recovery so as to smooth the divorce and make it easier to split up with her, but isn't your constant confrontations with her having the opposite effect?
> 
> I know you FEEL like you need to say these things, but your cooler head should prevail. You need to stop doing this. As long as you show her you continue to care, she will think she has her hooks in you and nothing will change. It will only fuel her determination to continue on with her rotten behavior, because deep down she feels like she still has you under her thumb.
> 
> You need to stop caring and quit sharing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is exactly my point in asking how his continued contact helps him move forward.

Thorburn - My interpretation of your actions is that you want satisfaction - satisfaction in the form of everyone, even her family, agreeing that she is at fault, and satisfaction in the form of her to acknowledging that she is at fault.

I don't think it is clear that you will ever get that. As long as that is your goal, you will be stuck in this place, spinning your wheels. Move forward with your life and your healing. The people that matter will understand. I understand your conversations with your sons, but stay out of her families drama. It is toxic to you.


----------



## MattMatt

She seems to have dragged people including family members down into the mud with her. 
Utterly reprehensible behaviour by her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

karole said:


> I wish I could like this post a hundred times!
> 
> Thorburn - it is not my place to judge whether or not your wife is a Christian - that's between her and God; but, assume she isn't, but she decides to turn her life over to God, does a complete turnaround with her life, owns up to all her mistakes, apologizes, starts living a real Christian lifestyle - would you consider taking her back?


Yes I would consider it. I am open to almost anything. But, I am following through with D. Divorce will happen. If after the D she changes or if she changes during the time from today till it is finalized it will not change my mind on D. 

Right now I have 5 women who are interested in dating me. Before anyone jumps to conclusions, they know my situation, and no meetings and no long conversations. Basically, Mac I heard what you are going through and when you are D, call me. One I went to school with from elementary through HS. She is D and was my sweetheart in 7th grade for about a month, LOL. She grew up on a farm about a mile from my parents house. We follow each other on FB and there have been no PMs, no flirting, and like I wrote she has basically said, when I am unattached, call her.


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## LostViking

Be careful how you communicate with these women. I would stop FB messaging them. Your wife is going to be snooping for any evidence she can use to attack you as a cheat and hypocrite. Make sure your computer is password protected at all times. You must play smart until your divorce is final. If she were to expose any messages you have sent other women, your credibility would be destroyed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> Be careful how you communicate with these women. I would stop FB messaging them. Your wife is going to be snooping for any evidence she can use to attack you as a cheat and hypocrite. Make sure your computer is password protected at all times. You must play smart until your divorce is final. If she were to expose any messages you have sent other women, your credibility would be destroyed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hear you. My computer is PW protected.


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## Thorburn

My oldest son called me today. He is packed and ready to go be with his brother. I have notes to finish here at work then I will go home and drive two hours to our other house. Should be a good time with my son, he will talk my ear off. Maybe I wll spend the night with both boys and get up early to get to work. See how it goes. 

My oldest son told me my WS will meet with my pastor on Tuesday and said she will go to my son's Celebrate Recovery meetings as she said she wants help and my son said mom, come with me, they deal with sexual addictions. She told him she will.

Smoke and mirrors or facing her demons? 

Not looking to spend the weekend with her alone but my son is worried that she is going to hurt herself and wants me there. 

I have enough to do around the house to keep busy. Maybe watch the Exorcist all weekend.


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## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> Maybe watch the Exorcist all weekend.


Mix it up with The Shining.


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## Thorburn

SaltInWound said:


> Mix it up with The Shining.


I remember having nightmares after I watched Children of the Corn and I was a freaken adult. Something about that movie freaked me out.


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## SaltInWound

The Exorcist is the only movie I refuse to watch.


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## LostViking

I chuckled when I read what Bandit.45 said many posts back about your wife floating above the bed. Just like that scene in the Exorcist. 

I wish it were funny, but in many ways you are living through a nightmare much worse than anything Hollywood could conjure up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> I chuckled when I read what Bandit.45 said many posts back about your wife floating above the bed. Just like that scene in the Exorcist.
> 
> I wish it were funny, but in many ways you are living through a nightmare much worse than anything Hollywood could conjure up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My oldest son is in his routine. He got off the phone with my middle BIL. Now he is taking a bath. Lol, that is my boy. No sense that I will be on the road for hours tonight. He said he is planning on staying a week or more.

Lol, he told his mother that she is full of demons and that is why he is leaving for a while.

I could not script this crap if I wanted too. Oh, yea I could, give me a tab or two of LSD and then maybe this script would jump out of my mind and flow through my hand and pen onto paper.

Mac's Lament. It started on a moonless night in a Nebraska cornfield.


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## verpin zal

Hey Thorburn, if a movie night is in order, I would suggest "The Frighteners". You won't regret watchin' it.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



SaltInWound said:


> The Exorcist is the only movie I refuse to watch.


Yeah I hate pea soup too.


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## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> Maybe watch the Exorcist all weekend.


I think you've been living it.


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## SaltInWound

Machiavelli said:


> I think you've been living it.


A real Lifetime movie.


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## LostViking

I remember seeing the Exorcist at a movie house when I was about 18. It was full of a bunch of sceaming, giggling, horrified and happy Faroe Islanders. The Exorcist is a very skillfully made movie. I watched it again last year. It has lost none of its impact. 

But this is beside the point. Thorburn you need to rid your life of that woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

Had a long talk with my oldest son while driving to our other house. He will spend over a week with his younger brother and our tenants. My youngest son started to lay down the law with his older brother, made me chuckle. He will visit his old church, my mother, my middle SIL and friends. He has an agenda and it is a good one. What I should have said is on the way to our other home, I answered a million questions and listened to my son talk about the phone conversations he had with my middle BIL and middle SIL today. He said dad they did not talk about you at all, just how bad mom is.

Then it broke my heart to listen to my boys talk. They talked about their mother and demons. My sons were not raised in a church where demons were discussed. they were talking about their mom and what they have seen, felt and smelled. I sat there and just listened. I saw them heartbroken, hugging each other. My sons are deeply hurt. My oldest son said he had to get away from the evil in his mother. My youngest son said I know. They are planning to see my mother (their grandmother) on one day and then my middle SIL. It was sad in one sense but nice to see them together trying to sort things out.


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## strugglinghusband

thorburn, it's heatbreaking to read, cant imagine what its like living it...

You sir have the fortitude of ten men ....


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## LostViking

Thanks for the morning cry Thorburn. I wept reading that. So sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> Thanks for the morning cry Thorburn. I wept reading that. So sad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry for that. I have wept by some of the stories on TAM. I am so glad my oldest son is not curing me out anymore. It was getting old getting bombarded with the F-bomb over and over again from him. He is typically tender hearted and has been most of his life, but there is this other side of him, and while he was agreeing with his mother it was not pleasant. I just stuck to telling him "I love you and I am praying for you". It really made him angry as well as my WS, as I heard her complaining to her family and friends that all I do with my son is tell him I love him and am praying for him. I did not want to do anything with him while he was assaulting me and threatening me. 

My tactic worked. It was not planned, I just did not want to explode back at him and it was not my intent to make him angry, but I now have a very loving son again, and he and his brother are back together. My youngest son was frustrated with his older brother and really did not want much to do with him. So I am very glad they worked things out and are reunited.


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## LostViking

So what are your plans this weekend Thorburn? Are you going to try to relax a bit? Watch some sports on tv? Get some exercise?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> So what are your plans this weekend Thorburn? Are you going to try to relax a bit? Watch some sports on tv? Get some exercise?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure. I might work on the sunroom. I have a bunch of barn beams that I need to put up but it is actually a two man job. None of them are the same dimension and I need to run some chalk lines and I can't do that myself. When I did the loft I did not need help but my WS helped me as it was all prior to her being caught. The beams are long and I just can't hang them myself. 

Got some plumbing to fix, the one bathroom sink, the drain has to be replaced, I have the parts and I need to take the one toilet and check the wax ring, I getting a leak somewhere in the basement and I suspect it is the wax ring, I have plenty of wax rings that were left when we bought the house.

i also have a bunch of woodworking projects that I just stopped doing. I was going to build a table out of white oak. I recycle pallets and once I figured out how to get the sprial nails out (what a core) I end up with some really nice quality wood. In the beginning I just took my sawsall and cut the deckboards from the stringers and left part of nails in the stringer. When I dulled my saw blade forgetting I had nails in there, I took time to figure out how to get them nasty nails out. Sprial nails are a Bit*h to pull out but I figure it out, just time consuming and hard work, but in the end you get nail free lumber and once you clean up the boards you get some really nice wood. And it is all free.

I also have about 600 square feet or more of hardwood flooring that I have to remove nails from. Easy but time consuming. I have that stacked in my garage.

Or I just might go camping at the state park and chill around the camp fire. I have a bag of marshmellows and hotdogs at home. 

I taking a week off the week of the 15th. Not sure what I wll do yet. I just need some time off.

If my WS would not be around I would work on stuff around the house but I just don't feel like it when she is around. Right now we can't use the sink in the downstair's bathroom. I have the parts and can fix it but I just don't care.

I wish my son had his camper ready. He got an old 13' Scamp camper. It is nice. It is a hard shell camper with a kitchen etc. But he has been doing some work on it so it is not ready to use. He paid $200.00 for it three years ago and has it at my house where he lives. One guy stopped by and offered me $5,000.00 for it and my son said no. 

So I don't know yet, what i will do this weekend.


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## Thorburn

My WS gave me two checks for almost $500.00 which I took to the bank today. Then she told me she made over $700.00 this week and that two of the girls she works with gave her all their tips. She said she will getting that check next week.

She told me last night that her younger brother is driving up from Maryland to take her to a ballgame later today. That is all the conversation we had. My youngest BIL contacted me today after I shared with him what happened last night at 1 A.M. He gets it now.

I am just reporting what happened last night. At 1 A.M. my dog (which will going with my WS) woke me up. I grabbed my Bible and started to read it. Nothing. I mean it was as flat as a possum squashed by an 18 wheeler. Nothing inspirational. Just fur sticking out of asphalt. Felt the need to pray for my WS. So I thought I would go upstairs and pray near her bedroom. I could not make it up the stairs. Something stopped me. I started to shake and fear came over me. I felt there was something in front of me, to the right of me and behind me. I started to pray like my middle BIL text me a few days ago. If there was a video recording of me doing this it would be like the three stooges fighting a demon. I have no clue what the heck I am doing here, no clue at all. I prayed and prayed. Then peace came over me and I went back to bed. I am so glad my son is out of here. 

I sent a text this morning to my pastor and my WS's family. Telling them basically the same thing. If this was not so real I would be on the floor laughing my butt off thinking I lost it. At least I am not sitting in a corner drooling and peeing my pants.

I have no clue what the heck is going on here but I am not backing down from this crap.

I remember years ago seeing a guy get his brains blown out within several feet of me by a bullet. It is times like that, that I would imagine panic would make things worse. All I could do was quickly assess the situation and get to safety. There was nothing that could done for the guy. He was gone. Was I scared, heck yea I was. I did not panic, nor did I freeze. 

I am not confronting my WS about this. My son felt it and got out and wanted me to stay here. 

I had a dream last night. Just to let you all know I hate roller coasters. Yea I get on them but they scare the crap out of me. Well the dream I had last night, after the events of 1 A.M. was this. I was on this huge roller coaster and it would not stop, I kept going round and round, up the slow incline and down a very steep one. Over and over again. And I was not scared.


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## debster

Thorburn said:


> My tactic worked. It was not planned, I just did not want to explode back at him and it was not my intent to make him angry, but I now have a very loving son again, and he and his brother are back together. My youngest son was frustrated with his older brother and really did not want much to do with him. So I am very glad they worked things out and are reunited.


Smile. The power of prayer.


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## SaltInWound

I have had an experience with a bad presence. We temporarily lived in a 100+ year old house by a railroad track. My mom can zone in on these presences also. I know people will think we are crazy, but bad things corresponded with the opening of the door of the closet under the stairs. At the top of the stairs was a small foyer that led to my room. In that foyer was some flooring stacked up along the wall. One day, as I walked out of my room, those boards began to rattle. Scared me so bad I could barely scream and I am not sure how I made it down the stairs. Sure enough, that closet door was open. We never used that closet for anything. it was empty. Not sure how that door kept getting open. I went to stay with my grandparents for a few days. My parents were planning to buy the house, but with several of these experiences, we thought it would be best to move. 

Several years later, I was out with some new friends I had met. We had to stop by the house of one of them. As we drove down a familiar road, I began having a bad feeling. Wouldn't you know it, he lived in that same house! I refused to go inside. I waited in the car. Everyone thought I was crazy. I guess only certain people pick up on these things.


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## LostViking

I'm from the Faroe Islands, a Scandinavian territory of Denmark. It is a group of small windswept islands North of Scotland and East of Iceland. It was one of the lands settled by the Vikings. Throughout the islands are ruins and burial sites left behind by the old iron age peoples, and I have been to most of them. It is believed that some of these ruins are haunted, and while I don't believe in ghosts, I do believe that evil exists and that it can inhabit places where horrible things have happened in the past. On my childhood visits to these places the feeling of dread that would come over me was palpable. I would usually visit these places once to sate my curiosity, but never return again. I was too frightened. 

I am not surprised at all that Thorburn felt an evil presence near his wife's room. I completely believe his story. Negative energy or evil does exist, and Thorburn's wife is a catalyst, a magnifier, of that evil.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostViking

On a lighter note, how was your weekend Thorburn?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

Faroe Islands, hmmmm. I was hoping to go to Scotland this year but I was intrigued by you saying you are from there. Never heard of the Faroe Islands before this. I got a hankering for some pilot whale meat. Might have to postpone Scotland and head further North. Might change my name to Puffin Catcher.











My weekend was fine. Did bills and lots of thinking. Went out with some friends.


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## RWB

Thorburn,

I live in the same house for over 20 years, my wife (former serial cheater) swears she never had sex with OM in my house. About a month after DD, she tells me she wants to get rid of our bed and move a smaller queen into the bedroom. I never liked the king bed so we agreed get rid of the king and move a smaller queen that we started with into the bedroom. 

For almost 2 years, I will wake up and start yelling at the walls for no reason. I don't really believe in ghost or such but I have never had vivid dreams early in the morning like I have now. 

I have asked her about the king bed and if she slept on it with the OM. She denies to this day.


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## LostViking

Thorburn said:


> Faroe Islands, hmmmm. I was hoping to go to Scotland this year but I was intrigued by you saying you are from there. Never heard of the Faroe Islands before this. I got a hankering for some pilot whale meat. Might have to postpone Scotland and head further North. Might change my name to Puffin Catcher.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 2810
> 
> 
> My weekend was fine. Did bills and lots of thinking. Went out with some friends.


Ha Ha! Thank you for the pic Thorburn. I'm very proud of where I come from, but I'm also proud to be an American citizen.

The puffin is called *"Lundii"* in our language. Its also a nickname given to fat little girls or boys. The man in the picture is doing what we call "sky fishing". It is very dangerous because it is done on the side of cliffs. Only a few families on Vagar island, where I was born, are licensed to catch puffins. I know many of them and their kids. I have never done it myself because I was too afraid of heights! Ha ha!


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> Ha Ha! Thank you for the pic Thorburn. I'm very proud of where I come from, but I'm also proud to be an American citizen.
> 
> The puffin is called *"Lundii"* in our language. Its also a nickname given to fat little girls or boys. The man in the picture is doing what we call "sky fishing". It is very dangerous because it is done on the side of cliffs.  Only a few families on Vagar island, where I was born, are licensed to catch puffins. I know many of them and their kids. I have never done it myself because I was too afraid of heights! Ha ha!


I even watched some Youtube videos of Scottish Chef Gordon Ramsey hunting Puffins. He fell off a cliff and injured himself and yes he got pecked by a wild Puffin. I heard they can be more dangerous then a grizzly bear. So much for the cute, sweet little Puffin. I downloaded a Puffin recipe 

Ingredients Needed For Mjólkursoðinn lundi - Puffin in milk sauce
* 4 ea. puffins
* 50 g smoked Bacon 
* 50 g butter 
* 300 ml milk 
* 300 ml water 
* to taste salt 

The sauce: 
* 30 g butter 
* 4 tblsp flour 
* 400-500 ml cooking liquid 
* to taste salt and pepper 
* as needed caramel/sauce colouring 
* to taste redcurrant jelly (optional) 
* to taste whipped cream


All I need is four Puffins and i am ready to go, even got red currant jelly at home.

Of course I need to get fifty gallons of bacon and about 100 gallons of butter. Or is 'g' grams, lol, I am going with gallons.


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## LostViking

Good luck. I will wait safe and warm back at my brothers house for you and you can go catch them for us. They taste like duck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> Good luck. I will wait safe and warm back at my brothers house for you and you can go catch them for us. They taste like duck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I love duck. My WS use to laugh when we were in a restaurant and say, i guess you are getting duck. Yep.


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## LostViking

How is your WW acting these days? Must be nice to destroy your family and humiliate your husband and be rewarded with going to a baseball game by her younger brother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

This morning, today or this evening my WS is suppose to be meeting with my pastor. She missed her appointment last time with him. She was really sick and wasn't faking it. Though this time she mentioned to my oldest son yesterday on the phone that she is not feeling well and she went to bed around 8:30 P.M. last night (which is early for her). Last night she popped her head in my bedroom and said, can you take care of the dog tonight, I am not feeling well and am going to bed.

My oldest BIL called me today. My youngest BIL and my WS went to a ballgame Saturday night. My youngest BIL shared some things with me the following day. Then my oldest BIL and youngest BIL talked and that is what my oldest BIL called me about today.

My oldest BIL is very skeptical about his sister (my WS), changing. He said the things she shared with her youngest brother the other night is basically smoke and mirrors. He said, if she meets with my pastor today all she will do is blast me and he said your pastor already knows your story. He said, all the problems that she will complain about, your verbal abuse and drinking needs to be taking in context. He said when you remove her cheating and lying from the equation you look mean and like a drunk. My oldest BIL said that is what my WS has been doing. Painting me as this nasty person without the context of me reacting to her cheating and lying and he said with some family members it was working but not anymore.

He said if I get the chance tell my WS that the entire family is now on the same page, all your brothers, all your sisters and your two boys. He said, if i feel like it tell her this. He said add that we all love you and care about you. He said ask her who are you seeking support and advise from? Certainly not your family. Stack them up and stack your family up and who will be with you down the road?

I told him that I more than likely won't say anything to her.

My oldest BIL was on a rant today. I love the guy, he gets it. He told his youngest brother do you see how she manipulated you at the game? He said yes and he said I just can't confront her. He said I am the only person in the family left who is talking to her and he said I feel like I am walking on egg shells around her. My youngest BIL is very tender hearted, but he gets it now (as of last week he gets it). 

I told them that i suspect my WS went out with a guy last Weds and on Sunday. I said I have no proof other than what she took with her and in the past when she took this backpack it was everytime she had sex. i call it her sex bag. 


I said i don't care what she does and I am not checking on her. I said I thought you might want to know that she more than likely has not stopped and I know she has told her younger brother that she is not doing it anymore but told her middle sister two weeks ago that she will not stop doing this. She really told her middle sister a lot and now regrets it as her middle sister is talking to me and the rest of the family and is spilling all the beans.


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> How is your WW acting these days? Must be nice to destroy your family and humiliate your husband and be rewarded with going to a baseball game by her younger brother.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The younger brother is tender hearted (but he gets it) and is the only one in the family talking to her. He told me he was going to do this and he wants to keep communications with her. He said he is the last link to the family. He actually did confront her a little bit. He feels that she will be totally lost from the family if he does not reach out to her. He is not like his two older brothers.

I have no hard feelings towards him. My WS and him were close, very close.


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## Thorburn

My WS gave me two more checks and she has one coming in this week for about $700.00. I have to sit down and see what I will owe on taxes. Once I am clear of that I will be able to set money aside for D. Since she is now giving up her money I am now able to handle things. Not out of the woods but there is a lot of pressure taken off me. In late February early March things were looking very bleak from a financial stand point.

I have some things to sell and will get those posted this week. 

I think my WS has thoughts that I will not file for D. Just my gut telling me that. I am no hurry at this time. Once I get the money together I will. What I will not do is file and get further behind on the bills. I want the D money to come out of funds I do not need and I am getting there slowly but surely.


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## Thorburn

My WS is looking completely stressed when she is home. When she goes out and I mean when I think she is going to hook up like on Sunday and last week she is perky. That is why I believe she is still doing the deed and I don't really care.


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## LostViking

She perks up when she is getting her drug fix. 

While she is at home she is in withdrawls. She's an addict.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> She perks up when she is getting her drug fix.
> 
> While she is at home she is in withdrawls. She's an addict.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My take exactly.


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## karole

You really need to get away from her Thornburn.


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## Thorburn

karole said:


> You really need to get away from her Thornburn.


I know. Can't kick her out and I don't have the funds yet for D. I am taking next week off. Might try to get away with my oldest son. I am suppose to pick him up this weekend (he is staying with his youngest brother) and I will talk to him about going camping or something. I do have the option of going to visit my mother and if my son agrees we can go there. It is about 1/2 hour drive from my other home. It is where I grew up.


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## Thorburn

My WS's family is bugging me to come to my nieces' wedding in North Dakota in May. I would love to go. Looked up a car rental and I can get one for under $200.00 for 5 days. Just over 1,000 miles each way. Airline tickets are about $600.00 My truck it too old to risk driving that far. Most of my WS's family will be there. 

My oldest sister's three kids who live in Chicago. They are really cool kids. So I might have a place to crash half way if I go. 

I am seriously thinking of going.


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## turnera

You should. Family is always good. Camping is good, too.

I once took a trip with my best friend and her family, to Colorado. Used a pop-up camper for all of us, drove from Texas to Colorado, ate spam for every meal, froze to death in the snow in June...best vacation of my life.


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## LostViking

My vote is go camping. Some fresh air and time away from the devil's mistress will do you good. 

Why would you spend the money on going to a wedding? Save it for an attorney.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> My vote is go camping. Some fresh air and time away from the devil's mistress will do you good.
> 
> Why would you spend the money on going to a wedding? Save it for an attorney.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel that being with her family is important. They have really been there for me and now the the entire family is on the same page and are asking me to come I will try to make it. If I get someone to go with me it will be fairly inexpensive. Flights to Fargo are not cheap but renting a car even with the gas will be at least half the cost of flying. I hate flying anymore and don't mind driving. My youngest son would like to go but he was complaining that he wants to use his vacation to go to blue grass festivals and wants me to go with him. So we are planning on going to the one in Gettysburg in August, and we will camp. There are some in my WS family who might drive with me as they are going anyway. Not sure as they were all planning on flying out. 

I know that the money spent on this could go towards the attorney but having her family's support in D is very important. And having face to face time with every one is important at this time. There will not be misinterpretation of text messages, etc. So right now I will go if I can not jeopordize my finances. If I get extra money then I will go, if not then I won't. I do believe the pay off in going will be worth it.


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## Tall Average Guy

Thorburn said:


> I know that the money spent on this could go towards the attorney but having her family's support in D is very important.


Why?


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## survivorwife

Thorburn said:


> I know that the money spent on this could go towards the attorney but having her family's support in D is very important. And having face to face time with every one is important at this time. There will not be misinterpretation of text messages, etc. So right now I will go if I can not jeopordize my finances. If I get extra money then I will go, if not then I won't. I do believe the pay off in going will be worth it.


Is there a possibility here that you are avoiding D? Putting it off until (insert excuse here)?

You see, from what I have read from you, you already have the full support of the in-laws. Full steam ahead with D, right? (Well, except for the money, of course). So, instead of being resolved to save the funds for a D, you now toss in a wedding in order to get MORE family support? Instead of telling that the money will be used for the D?

Not trying to be harsh here, Thorburn, but do you see where your focus has been more on "family support" and not on yourself, as in getting free of this horrible situation? Do you not feel that you can be free until you jump through "more hoops" to win full family support? How many "hoops" are enough?


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## karole

I know you are close to her family, and most likely would like to remain so, but why is it so important for you to have their support? You say you are getting divorced - you also say that most of her family already support that decision, so why do you need more of them to support you?


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## Thorburn

Up until two weeks ago my WS was going to take me for everything she could. She has been getting advice from her toxic friends, her middle sister and her younger brother. I know they told me what they were telling her. They were buying her lies and part of her family was telling her to take me for everything she can get. 

Now they are not.

As I have delayed D due to the money situation for the most part, I also wanted my WS's heart to soften up. I also wanted her family all on the same page. When D happens I will see if my delay worked. I believe my WS will listen to my sons and her family at some point down the road. I think she may already be there. I do know that my sons will say to her, "we will not allow you to take dad for everything, you screwed this up, this is all your fault, take what dad offers you and live with it". Her family has told me that they believe she deserves nothing. I have told them that is not the way the law works, she will get something. Right now I am looking at a 40%/60% split. Her getting 40%. If I can do better than that, keep the houses, and get away with little or no alimoney, that is what I am hoping for.

A lot of D's are nasty. If I went full charge in the middle of February that is what I would be facing right now, a nasty WS. When I feel the time is right I will sit down with her and ask her what she wants. I did this twice in the last two months and I got, "Mac, I am going to take you for everything I can". Right now she is not walking around totally pis*ed off. She has lost her second son and middle sister in the last two weeks. Her younger brother has turned but is still talking to her. 

The pressure of the family will be great. 

Right now I am sitting here with two checks and cash totaling $335.68 that my WS gave me this morning. She told me that she should be getting another check for around $700.00 this week. If I had followed the advice given to me by my attorney, my pastor and her two older brothers at the end of February to cut her off financially I would not be sitting here with this money. When she lied about me spending money like a mad man and that I had cut her off, I proved to the family that this was a lie and I showed her and confronted her about it almost two weeks ago. Since that time she has given me every paycheck and cash that she has gotten.

So I hear everyone, I do. Not cutting her from the money has worked in my favor. I just felt that was not the right thing to do and it worked out for me.

Getting her family to see the light is working out for me. And my hope is that when D happens she will feel the pressure from the entire family not to do a scorched earth on me in D. 

A friend of mine was literally in my face today saying, Mac, it is not going to work out the way you think it is. Your WS is going to screw you big time, mark my word. Her family will turn on you once you file. He held out his hand and said I bet you a $1.00 that your D will be nasty. He does not know my WS and he is basing it on his D and his friend's D. I shook his hand and took him up on that bet. A month ago I wouldn't have.


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## LostViking

Your focus should be to extricate yourself from this carwreck of a marriage. If I had a jaws of life I would come to your rescue. You already have enough support from the inlaws and her family. Word has already spread throughout the family of what she has been doing. You can be sure of it. No need to waste all that money going to a wedding anyway. And besides, your neice's wedding is no place to go drumming for support in your Divorce. This is your neice's day to be center of attention. If you go there trying to take the focus off her, you're going to look like an ass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

I also want to say that I can forgive my WS. I have reached that point as of this week.

I want to be clear about my view on forgiveness.
1. It is something a Christian must do.
2. Does not mean we don't feel the pain.
3. Does not mean we forget.
4. Does not mean I do not file for D. I will.
5. Does not mean I let her back into my life.
6. Does not mean she gets away with it.
7. Does not mean I don't want a confession of all her wrongs, names, phone numbers ect if she repents. I may never get it and I will not demand it or even ask for it. I can let it go.


The scripture says that God judges the adulterer. It means future and present. I believe what I have witnessed in the past two months has shown that He is judging her. I am staying out of it and letting God do His work. 

I am more and more detached from my WS. and like I said, if she would be gone today I doubt i would miss her and in fact would have more peace.


----------



## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> Your focus should be to extricate yourself from this carwreck of a marriage. If I had a jaws of life I would come to your rescue. You already have enough support from the inlaws and her family. Word has already spread throughout the family of what she has been doing. You can be sure of it. No need to waste all that money going to a wedding anyway. And besides, your neice's wedding is no place to go drumming for support in your Divorce. This is your neice's day to be center of attention. If you go there trying to take the focus off her, you're going to look like an ass.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All I meant by having their support in D is that I already know how they feel about my WS taking me to the cleaners and their opposition to it. I believe when the time comes they will give their opinion to my WS through my sons and through her younger brother. And all I can hope for is that she will listen. 

When I got the messages from the family asking me to come, the furthest thing on my mind was to use this as a time to drum up support from her family. I already have that. Seriously. I thought to myself if I go it will not be a bash my WS session (they know the story). My focus would be more along the lines of hey, look at Mac, he is normal and can enjoy a family function.

I don't feel the need to go over this or over that. I just want to go there and enjoy some fun times like we use to do. Talk non-sense and laugh. I have not done that with them in a long time and we use to do that a lot.


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## karole

I hope all this doesn't backfire on you Thorn - if all her family turns against her, won't help her out, won't lend her money, that may make her MORE determined to get everything she can from you. 

I really hope it all works out for you exactly the way you want.


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## Thorburn

karole said:


> I hope all this doesn't backfire on you Thorn - if all her family turns against her, won't help her out, won't lend her money, that may make her MORE determined to get everything she can from you.
> 
> I really hope it all works out for you exactly the way you want.


I have nothing to lose. Really I don't. had I filed a month ago with her anger she would have stood her ground and taken me for all she could. My attorney pretty much told me what she would get. I did a lot of research and know fairly well what she can get. So I already know the worse. Anything less than that is better for me in the long run.

If this plays out the way I think it will I can come out of it in a fairly healthy way. 

Right now with her family turning against her she is giving me money, she is not hoarding it nor spending like she was up to two weeks ago. 

If I was her I would be looking out for number one and hoarding all my money. She is not. In fact the other day she went up to Valley Forge and picked up furniture to refinish and asked me to help her with it. She got it all free. Good stuff and we should be able to make about $500.00. If she is looking to run and just take care of herself she would not be doing this. I showed her that I am focused on getting out of debt and taking care of our finances and that I was not putting up with her crap, lies and deceit. When I gave her the $500.00 check from my friend and said here you can have this, she cried and gave me the check back.

I have posted this before but call me stupid but everything I have done has paid off. I did not plan it just felt the spirit was leading me to do this. 

Her family is no longer putting up with her BS. My boys aren't. 

She has not left the house. Someone told me that her attorney is telling her to do this. Nope, he is not. I know. Her family told her that she better stop spending money and start helping Mac, because Mac is paying bills and is not getting help from you. Mac proved it. So why are you lying to us? What are you doing with the money? 

Again, if this would be me, I would be hoarding the money and I would have several thousand dollars right now. Everything she has gotten in the last two weeks has been given to me (unless she got money from friends). I do know that friends from 35 years ago offered her to move in with them, one was in Texas and she has turned it down. Her sister blasted her about this. She told my WS why the heck would you move away from your boys and family to move in with someone you have not seen in over 35 years from your party days, are you nuts? Of course these people believed her lies that I was abusing her.

So right now I have nothing to lose but time. I feel better then ever. Have her family's support. Money is coming in and I am steadily getting the bills in order.


----------



## Curse of Millhaven

Thorburn said:


> My WS's family is bugging me to come to my nieces' wedding in North Dakota in May. I would love to go. Looked up a car rental and I can get one for under $200.00 for 5 days. Just over 1,000 miles each way. Airline tickets are about $600.00 My truck it too old to risk driving that far. Most of my WS's family will be there.
> 
> My oldest sister's three kids who live in Chicago. They are really cool kids. So I might have a place to crash half way if I go.
> 
> I am seriously thinking of going.



It’s not my place to judge you or your decisions and for what it is worth I don’t think you are foolish in doing any of the things that you have done. You have handled a truly heinous and revolting situation with aplomb, honor and dignity. That being said I would like to share my opinion with you. I don’t think it’s a good idea or healthy for you to attend the wedding of your wife’s niece. 

Several pages back you explained that in many ways your wife’s family has been more of a family to you than your blood relatives. I get this, I really do. You have shared decades of your life, the good and the bad, with these people. They have indeed been your family, albeit by marriage; familial bonds can come from many sources and are just as binding as blood ties. I do understand this on a personal level. But at some point, sooner rather than later, you will need to let this bond with them go. It will be difficult, as everything involving this whole ordeal has been, but it is a necessary step in dissolving your union with her and moving on with _your_ life. 

It seems you have gone through the process of grieving the end of your marriage and have mostly given up the ghost of what your life was and are now thinking ahead to what your future will be. This is excellent. It is my humble belief that you need to go through this same process with her family. This will in many ways be just as difficult since you have developed such a bond with them and their opinion of you matters a great deal to you. But at some point you will have to let them go and mourn this loss as another casualty of your wife’s sickness. You have the memories with them and their current support, but ultimately they are her blood family and always will be until she shuffles off this mortal coil. Understand her brother’s words…”stack them up and stack your family up and who will be with you down the road?” They will be. They are _her_ family after all; nothing you or anyone can say or do will change that. 

You have pointed out and proven her egregious infidelity, lies, and manipulation; they get it and support your decision for an (as much as possible) amicable divorce. Beyond that for a favorable dissolution of your marriage…what more do you hope to achieve with them? Do you intend to remain close with them and in constant contact once you are divorced? 

You say that you really want to attend this wedding to share good times with her family and laugh as you all once did. Your intentions are lovely and pure, but what if her family has ulterior motives in wanting you to attend? Weddings can do funny things to people…they can give you amnesia and make you nostalgic all at once. You get sentimental and forget the misery and heartache as you watch the glowing young couple just starting out…their excitement, hope, and passion are contagious. Perhaps despite her family’s assurances that they are in full support of your divorce, is it possible that they hope you two might reconcile? I hate to be so cynical, but if you did stay with her…it would certainly help them out. You would continue to take care of their dysfunctional sister and free them of the headache and burden. Just consider the possibility.

In times of great personal upheaval and sorrow it can be liberating and oftentimes necessary to sever the ties that bind us to the past, to our former selves. The people that were pivotal in our previous lives will always be so…in our memories. Sometimes we need to put them and our shattered hopes and plans in their proper place and perspective which is to say…put them in the past. You are a very strong and honorable man and you’ve done all that you can do at this point. I would think it’s time for you to focus on your future free of your wife and her sphere of life, including her family. 

Anyway, whatever you decide to do I wish you luck, continued strength, and heartfelt support. This is a poem by one of my favorite poets that has always given me purpose, resolve, and strength when I’ve needed it. I know you are at peace with the trajectory of your life at the moment, but it is my hope that this will offer you a little of what it has given me when you need it. Take care.

*A Spider Playing in the House*

Conventional knowledge is death
to our souls, and it is not really ours.

We must become ignorant
of what we have been taught,
and be, instead, bewildered.

Run from what is profitable and comfortable.
If you drink those liqueurs, you will spill
the springwater of your real life.

Forget safety.
Live where you fear to live.
Destroy your reputation.
Be notorious.

I have tried prudent planning
long enough. 
From now on, I will be mad.

~Rumi


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## Thorburn

I got several texts from my Pastor last evening. He said he and his wife met with my WS. He said he does not see that my WS is unrepentant. He said he would like to meet with my WS and I as there are two sides and he said their meeting with my WS was very productive.

I talked to my oldest BIL this morning about this. He said my pastor does not get it.

I texted the pastor and my two older BILs last night and this morning. I prayed last night and this morning. I have searched the Scriptures. My heart is humble. No anger, no bitterness, no spite, no revenge. And I am at peace. I slept like a baby last night. I have no anxiety and I stopped taking the anti depressants about a week ago and I don't feel the need for it. When I first started to take them within a week that I discovered her newest A I started to take them. I had not taken them before as prescribed. i really did not see a difference.

Anyway, I told the pastor and her two BILs that I will not meet with her and the pastor and his wife. I said I feel that my WS is decieiving you. I said why would I meet to work on the marriage when I am done and filing for D? I said to the pastor, you told me to file for D and follow through and that is what I am doing. I said I can't right now due to money and I am OK with that and I have absolute peace in my decision. 

I told her BIL's (and my oldest BIL agrees with me) and I have yet to hear from my other BIL and I doubt if he will disagree, that I am done with the marriage. That I will not meet with the pastor and my WS. My WS has told me over the past several weeks that she repented. A month ago, when I told her to repent and turn back to Christ, she said, "I did (angerily) and stormed upstairs". Last week she said, "I did". Funny, she has not told me one thing about her A's. Not one I am sorry. Not one I messed up. Even last week when she said she turned to God and repented she was lying about the money, me threatening to kill her, etc. 

She has not stopped lying. I told the pastor this via text. I said if she repented then why does she keep lying? Why has she not come to me and confessed? 

I told him if she has changed why don't I know about it. Why does some dude that she is having sex with and she is naked in my car know more about her A in 1999 then I do?

My oldest BIL said my Ws more than likely told him all the bad things I did, raged, drank, without knowing the context. Mac, drank because his WS cheated and lied and lied and lied. Mac pleaded with his WS over and over again and she lied and lied. He said Mac did what any normal person would do and all he got was lies. He said Mac checked on her and what did he find? That she was still cheating. Mac bought a new house, they moved and what did his WS do right away? She found new lovers. My BIL says he does not see the context. And I said, I don't care and I will not meet with her and him.

And you here on TAM get it. All the pros I have talked with from Focus on the Family to psychiatrists, psycholoigsts, interventionist, sex addiction folks, they all get it, I didn't have to tell them much and they nailed my WS's behaviors right away and told me, she is doing this and she is doing that, and they were right on and they don't know her. I have bent over backwards for my WS to come clean and all I still get is more lies.

And now I have my pastor wanting to meet with me and my WS so he can get both sides of the story. 

I get where he is coming from in that if he wants to save the marriage then yes we should come together. But for me this is not about saving the marriage, this is about her serial adultery. This is about her lies. This is about her soul.

If she is repentant why has she not called my boys. She has not called my oldest son since he left last week. He told me last night and man is his heart tender and loving now, that he does not want to come home and wants to stay with his brother maybe another week or more. She has not talked to my youngest son since about February 15th. 

I will tell everyone of you. If you sat down with my wife you would not believe she is capable of doing what she did. You would think listening to her that I am the most evil person in the world. And she would convince you unless you knew the real story. She is that good. If I did not have the recording she would have me convinced that it was a one time deal or something and she would have me hooked again. 

I am upset that my WS did not take this opportunity to come clean, instead she is still blaming me. And the pastor wants to work on the marriage. The marriage is over. And I am not saying I was hoping she would come clean and everything would be rosy. No, just come clean. Maybe I want closure.

Like my oldest BIL told me this morning. He suspects that my WS told the pastor, you know Mac is so wrong. He said I had sex last Sunday and then last week when I told everyone I was out with my GF's. You know Pastor how wrong Mac is I was out shopping on Sunday and I did go out with girls last week. I can prove it. My BIL said, maybe she did and she is telling the pator, see how wrong Mac is. He is accusing me of things I did not do. My BIL said he would have said, so, Mac is wrong on 100 times. Don't you understand what you have done to him? Don't you get it that he did find out you had sex on Feb 13th? All you focus on is when Mac might be wrong but you are not admitting to what he does know 100%. Why aren't you confessing to your husband what you did wrong? You wronged him not us, go to him and confess. My BIL said, she is not admitting to anything until she admits it to me and she is not doing it. When I said I am pursuing D he said you have not other choice. 

What did I expect? More than this. I was hoping to get something from her.

My youngest son got into a nasty argument with his best friend the other night. He was over at our house (the one my son is renting) and said something to my son about having sex with his mother. My WS tried to seduce him when I was in Iraq. His story is he left the house. I don't know what really happened. He told my son about three weeks ago what happened. That he stopped by the house to wait for my son to come home from work and my WS tried to seduce him and he left and waited outside. I talked to my son last night about this and he said his friend apologized. He was drinking. I said did they have sex. My son said he believes they did not and that his friend's story is true but he says he does not know for sure. I think they did the deed and if they did it once they did it more than once. Knowing the kid since age 12 I know he will come clean if they did but it will take some time. The problem is my son would end his friendship, I know my son, he would not be able to handle being around him.

This next week will be interesting as I am taking the whole week off work.


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## karole

I'm sorry Thorn - you deserve so much better. You are absolutely making the right decision in not meeting with the pastor and your wife. It's time for you to think about yourself and heal. Try to have a relaxing week off - do things just for you! You are in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Thorburn

My middle BIL called me about an hour ago. He said file for D. He said we will begin praying that you get the money as quickly as you can. He said the pastor has been fooled by his sister. My oldest BIL agrees. My middle BIL said he will be calling his brother immediately and he will talk to the youngest BIL and say stop all contact. He said it is time now to cut her completely off from the family.

He asked for our phone number and email address and he said he is ready to confront her.

He said if the pastor believes she has repented then he is fooled. He said the first thing my WS would do is call our boys. She doesn't even ask me about our youngest son and they were close and she has not talked to him in a long time.

I just got home and my WS had dinner made for herself nothing for me. 

Yea she repented.


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## MattMatt

Thorburn, I know someone like your WS. My wife's birth mother. She is so good with the lies, so convincing that she believes her own lies.


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## Thorburn

MattMatt said:


> Thorburn, I know someone like your WS. My wife's birth mother. She is so good with the lies, so convincing that she believes her own lies.


My middle BIL said she has lied so much she can't remember her lies and that is why she got caught.

I still don't get why she kept lying to her family. She has really burnt her bridges. 

I suspect that she thinks the pastor and his wife are on her side. I bet you he said we will get Mac in here and straighten him out after hearing her sad tale of woe. Mac is mean, Mac is a drunk, Mac won't let me cheat ummm I mean eat. Mac brainwashed my boys and my family he has demonic brain control powers.


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## MattMatt

Thorburn said:


> My middle BIL said she has lied so much she can't remember her lies and that is why she got caught.
> 
> I still don't get why she kept lying to her family. She has really burnt her bridges.
> 
> I suspect that she thinks the pastor and his wife are on her side. I bet you he said we will get Mac in here and straighten him out after hearing her sad tale of woe. Mac is mean, Mac is a drunk, Mac won't let me cheat ummm I mean eat. Mac brainwashed my boys and my family he has demonic brain control powers.


Hmm. Yeah. wife's birth mother has had something like 7 husbands. Some who weren't hers...


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## Thorburn

MattMatt said:


> Hmm. Yeah. wife's birth mother has had something like 7 husbands. Some who weren't hers...


I think my WS has more than 7 husbands right now. Not sure.


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## Thorburn

MattMatt said:


> Hmm. Yeah. wife's birth mother has had something like 7 husbands. Some who weren't hers...


Hey Matt, what is up with the story about Winston Churchill's parrot? Someone told me it is still alive at like 106 or something like that and that it is not allowed in public because it curses. I can't believe this is true.


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## Thorburn

What a roller coaster ride. My pastor and his wife met with my WS last week. The pastor then wrote my oldest BIL an email yesterday and told him I never shared with him my past and said I lied. My WS must had done a good job of deception. And I am sure the pastor told my WS that I did not share my life. 

I did not know any of this. My middle BIL sent me a text by accident late last night saying I am lying, based upon what the pastor said. He was sending this to my oldest BIL. I called my oldest BIL last night and he said they are now confused. He told me what the pastor wrote him. What a crock of crap. I told my BIL the truth and he said he believes the pastor. Anyway I was upset and my oldest son called me off and on late last night. At 3 A.M. I texted my BILs and explained things and said the pastor lied. My middle BIL apologized and I talked to him this morning and he said after reading my text his wife told him that the pastor seems confused.

I called the pastor this morning. I told him what I shared with him over three meetings and he said oh yea I forgot. He said I will straighten this out with the family.

I am tired of this. My pastor is lying about me, and saying he forgot just like my WS. He also apologized to my BIL but never once did he apologize to me. Just like my WS.

I said I am willing to meet one time with my WS, the pastor and his wife.

I had a very lengthy talk with my older BIL today. He basically told me how I should approach this meeting and I agree. He said expect my WS to blast me and expect her to say the worst. He said the best thing that could happen is that I finally get closure. I am willing to do that.


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## badbane

Thorburn said:


> What a roller coaster ride. My pastor and his wife met with my WS last week. The pastor then wrote my oldest BIL an email yesterday and told him I never shared with him my past and said I lied. My WS must had done a good job of deception. And I am sure the pastor told my WS that I did not share my life.
> 
> I did not know any of this. My middle BIL sent me a text by accident late last night saying I am lying, based upon what the pastor said. He was sending this to my oldest BIL. I called my oldest BIL last night and he said they are now confused. He told me what the pastor wrote him. What a crock of crap. I told my BIL the truth and he said he believes the pastor. Anyway I was upset and my oldest son called me off and on late last night. At 3 A.M. I texted my BILs and explained things and said the pastor lied. My middle BIL apologized and I talked to him this morning and he said after reading my text his wife told him that the pastor seems confused.
> 
> I called the pastor this morning. I told him what I shared with him over three meetings and he said oh yea I forgot. He said I will straighten this out with the family.
> 
> I am tired of this. My pastor is lying about me, and saying he forgot just like my WS. He also apologized to my BIL but never once did he apologize to me. Just like my WS.
> 
> I said I am willing to meet one time with my WS, the pastor and his wife.
> 
> I had a very lengthy talk with my older BIL today. He basically told me how I should approach this meeting and I agree. He said expect my WS to blast me and expect her to say the worst. He said the best thing that could happen is that I finally get closure. I am willing to do that.


I would also bring a printout of all of the evidence you have. email texts and all of that. So that when she starts trying to blast you and mention how you lied. You could just start reading off the inappropriate text messages. 

"I never cheated on you"

"really cause it says right here you quote: enjoyed being bent over to be taken from behind. Now I am guess that was just a hypothetical recollection of a past event right?"


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## vi_bride04

....step away from the situation with the ILs.....

Actually, turn and run the other way. As "close" as you think you guys are, look at how fast they turned on you over 1 meeting your WS had with the pastor.


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## Thorburn

badbane said:


> I would also bring a printout of all of the evidence you have. email texts and all of that. So that when she starts trying to blast you and mention how you lied. You could just start reading off the inappropriate text messages.
> 
> "I never cheated on you"
> 
> "really cause it says right here you quote: enjoyed being bent over to be taken from behind. Now I am guess that was just a hypothetical recollection of a past event right?"


My plan is simple. I will tell my story. Will not even bring her up, will not go into detail what she did or did not do. I will let her tell her story. I suspect she will lie. I will allow her to do so without interruption.

At the end if she lied (there is a small chance she will come clean very small) I will stand up say you were a liar and you still are and I will tell the pastor I will see him on Sunday at church and walk out.

If things work as planned I will have the money for D in about a month.


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## SadSamIAm

I think you should find a different pastor/church!


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## Shaggy

Play the recording of her telling her affairs to the pastor.

And then tell the pastor to go waste someone else's time, because he's a fool for believing you wife after all you've shared with him, and for him to send those emails to her family is frankly unethical. He used those emails to try and convict you with no evidence and only a single evil spiteful woman's word.

He's not worthy frankly of giving spiritual guidance if he is so easily lied to.

Thorburn. You will not win the battle with her family or others on the path you are going. You want to turn the course? Have her caught in the act.


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## LostViking

I agree with Shaggy.

Thorburn you are being set up by the Pastor and played by your in-laws. You need to cut off contact with both and cling to the lawyer you hire. 

There is an old proverb from a hero of mine that springs to mind:

"_Never keep a line of retreat: it is a wretched invention_."

-Fridtjof Nansen

He also said: 

"_I demolish my bridges behind me - then there is no choice but forward_. "


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## Chris989

The pastor is an idiot. He has an agenda here and that is obvious. It is also obvious that his agenda includes doing you over. Heck maybe he even has "designs" on your wife.

You are on a one way hide into nothing with this lot; the pastor, your brothers in law, your wife. They are all poison in your life.

Walk away.


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## happyman64

Thorburn said:


> My plan is simple. I will tell my story. Will not even bring her up, will not go into detail what she did or did not do. I will let her tell her story. I suspect she will lie. I will allow her to do so without interruption.
> 
> At the end if she lied (there is a small chance she will come clean very small) I will stand up say you were a liar and you still are and I will tell the pastor I will see him on Sunday at church and walk out.
> 
> If things work as planned I will have the money for D in about a month.


Throburn

Can I make a suggestion to you?

Since you are going to have this meeting when she goes crazy and starts lying her butt off just do this.

Stand up.
Reach into your quote.
Pull out the recorder. Have the volume set at 10.
And play the recorder for everyone.
If they ask you to shut it off do not do it.

Play it for a minute or two. Make a point.

Then shut it off. Sit down calmly.

And smile at all of them.

Even your wife if she has not run from the room.

Maybe if she sticks it out the truth can start to flow in that room.

HM64


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## Thorburn

I fired the pastor. Told him he is like my WS. He lied about me and apologized to my BIL. My WS tells others about her A's but says nothing to me but lies. I told him a simple apology would have gone a long way. He sent me three long texts blasting me saying the A was my fault that I drove her into the arms of other men. Yea he had an agenda. He bought my WS's line. Poor me the victim. Mac alienated his wife (that is her new I was lonely speech she has been given people). Like in 1999 (same denomination) the pastor blamed me and they did not hold my WS accountable for a thing. She got off free and clear, it was all Mac's fault. Some churches are like this and if I even thought this guy was like that I would have never gone here. Some church leaders always blame the husband, always for everything that happens in a marriage. In all my years in ministry I have run into two. Most pastor don't see it this way.

My older BIL flipped out on me. He said he recommended this guy, etc and got mad when I said I will report this pastor to his district for an ethics violation. I will let it go but seriously he could get into serious trouble for sending emails about me and my issues to other people. I know, I had to deal with church law and ethics and I almost got sued for bringing up a person in an Elder's meeting. It violated ethics. I threatened the pastor with filing a complaint. Like I said I am going to let it go and move on. He is not worth it.

I will meet with a therapist with my WS, (she agreed) just so the BILs will back off me. They have been pushing this for over a year and I finally said yes to the pastor. He is fired so I will go to one that Focus on the Family recommended and after that I am done. I gave my WS a person who deals in sexual addictions and it looks like she will go.

This is my last hoop. And I really don't give a dam*. 

Why am I doing this?

I was told by my attorney that I may have to do this anyway if I file so get it done now. I can show that we tried one last time. Gets my ticket punched.


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## turnera

Get that pastor reported. ASAP. It's been my experience that pastors are NOT to be trusted. And most are more messed up than the rest of us. We have had SEVERAL bad experiences with them.


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## the guy

Sooo my action as a husband forced my wife into the arms of another man/men?

Well then I guess my wifes actions forced me to put my arms around her neck for pissing me off. Your expastor just justified beating my wife...so please thank him for me. I mean really is my wife making me angry justify me hitting her? Is my wife justifies in breaking her vows just like I broke my vows? 

Hell since we all can now blame others for you unhealthy behavior instead of our selves well lets go and have a free for all in crap behavior now that its the other persons fault.

Sir I have no idea why you are doing this or even going thruogh this. I'm gussing you are looking for closure from all these poeple that were once part of you life.

The inlaws and the rest of them are no ,longer part of your new life once the divorce is finalized.....sure the boys still have to deal with there uncles just like they will have to deal with yout STBXW.

Hell maybe you are just loook for validation for the the divorce from others .........hell I really really have no idea why you are doing all this.....but just like letting your STBXW goo you have to let the inlaws go and move on.

From were I' sitting they are way to far up your @ss and that needs to change.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



Thorburn said:


> My plan is simple. I will tell my story. Will not even bring her up, will not go into detail what she did or did not do. I will let her tell her story. I suspect she will lie. I will allow her to do so without interruption.
> 
> At the end if she lied (there is a small chance she will come clean very small) I will stand up say you were a liar and you still are and I will tell the pastor I will see him on Sunday at church and walk out.
> 
> If things work as planned I will have the money for D in about a month.


Why would you not tell the pastor the truth? Why would you not present the evidence to him so that he has the information necessary to see the entire picture? I understand that you need to divorce her. But you also have said you want her to get help. You've said she needs to come back to God. Yet you withhold the truth from the man you have enlisted in order to help her? Help me understand your reasoning here?


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## bfree

Ok, I just read your last post. I still don't understand your methods though. You aren't detaching, you are too concerned about what her family thinks, you withhold evidence and somehow think your wife is going to come clean and admit what she has been doing possibly for three decades. If I didn't know better I would say you are addicted to the drama and are using it to keep an attachment to your wife. If that is true it's not healthy at all. You need to move on mentally for your own good.


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## Kasler

This is why you don't bring other people into this kind of thing. Its none of their business and just mucks things up further.

They are poison and you need to stop caring so much about them and detach.


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## lordmayhem

Incredible. Religious clergy are supposed to have almost absolute confidentiality, even the police can't make them divulge anything said to them in confidence in most circumstances. Yet this guy was telling others what you told him? He needs to be reported.


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## Shaggy

Report the pastor before he harms more people.

Weird question. Any chance she offered some to the pastor? His turning on you like he did seems way off.


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## lordmayhem

bfree said:


> Ok, I just read your last post. I still don't understand your methods though. You aren't detaching, you are too concerned about what her family thinks, you withhold evidence and somehow think your wife is going to come clean and admit what she has been doing possibly for three decades. If I didn't know better I would say you are addicted to the drama and are using it to keep an attachment to your wife. If that is true it's not healthy at all. You need to move on mentally for your own good.


:iagree:

Sadly, the last 100 or so pages have been trying to win over the in-laws. 

Thorburn, please stop engaging your in-laws and trying to win them over. Blood is usually thicker than water. People have commented on this repeated in your thread. Now, you've seen their true colors. They may be disgusted with their sister's behavior, but as you have seen, they will latch on to anything that shows you are the bad guy. In the end, they will support her because she is family, not you. You thought for sure that her older brother supported you, yet now he's confused after everything that you've shown him?


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## phillybeffandswiss

I greatly dislike organized religion and your BILs and this crappy pastor reinforced that belief.

I'm going to point some things out to you:


> Proverbs 3:7-8
> Be not wise in your own eyes; *fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.* It will be healing to your flesh and refreshment to your bones.


Now, you keep feeling an Evil presence. You and others have talked about it for pages. Do you see what the Bible has told you to do? Not only have you done the opposite, you've been running right at it for months and really YEARS.



> Proverbs 6:16-19
> 
> There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: *haughty eyes, a lying tongue,* and hands that shed innocent blood, *a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.*


Your wife fits all but one literally and all metaphorically. The pastor and some of your your ILs fit the last two.



> 1 Corinthians 6:18
> 
> *Flee from sexual immorality.* Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.


No explanation needed.

I'm just showing you that religion has specific entries designed to help you, but they are often manipulated or left out to the detriment of a betrayed spouse.


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## strugglinghusband

Divorce them all...It's seems like they will always be toxic to you in one way or another....


“_The secret of change is to focus all of your energy, not on fighting the old, but on building the new_.” 

― Socrates


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## survivorwife

Thorburn said:


> I fired the pastor. Told him he is like my WS. He lied about me and apologized to my BIL. My WS tells others about her A's but says nothing to me but lies. I told him a simple apology would have gone a long way. He sent me three long texts blasting me saying the A was my fault that I drove her into the arms of other men. Yea he had an agenda. He bought my WS's line. Poor me the victim. Mac alienated his wife (that is her new I was lonely speech she has been given people). Like in 1999 (same denomination) the pastor blamed me and they did not hold my WS accountable for a thing. She got off free and clear, it was all Mac's fault. Some churches are like this and if I even thought this guy was like that I would have never gone here. Some church leaders always blame the husband, always for everything that happens in a marriage. In all my years in ministry I have run into two. Most pastor don't see it this way.
> 
> My older BIL flipped out on me. He said he recommended this guy, etc and got mad when I said I will report this pastor to his district for an ethics violation. I will let it go but seriously he could get into serious trouble for sending emails about me and my issues to other people. I know, I had to deal with church law and ethics and I almost got sued for bringing up a person in an Elder's meeting. It violated ethics. I threatened the pastor with filing a complaint. Like I said I am going to let it go and move on. He is not worth it.
> 
> I will meet with a therapist with my WS, (she agreed) just so the BILs will back off me. They have been pushing this for over a year and I finally said yes to the pastor. He is fired so I will go to one that Focus on the Family recommended and after that I am done. I gave my WS a person who deals in sexual addictions and it looks like she will go.
> 
> This is my last hoop. And I really don't give a dam*.
> 
> Why am I doing this?
> 
> I was told by my attorney that I may have to do this anyway if I file so get it done now. I can show that we tried one last time. Gets my ticket punched.


Sadly you allow those close to you the power to manipulate you. Why is that? The Truth stands on its own. No person can change the truth. It is what is it.

First off, the BIL knows the truth. I presume he heard the tape? I presume he believed you in that your W was having As with other men? That is the simple truth. And yet he continues to attempt to manipulate you, to have you continually jumping through hoops, to prove what exactly? The truth stands on its own.

The pastor broke his ethical obligation by informing your BIL about the substance of your WS meeting with him, resulting in your BIL calling YOU a liar. Then, when the pastor was confronted with this act, he apologized to your BIL and now your BIL wants you NOT to report this ethical violation? What if the pastor does this to others in the future? And you knew about this behavior? The truth is the truth. Do you not feel obligated to stand up for the truth and report it, and let the chips fall where they may? Or are you so set in winning your BIL's support that you will not stand for the truth, even if it hurts someone else in the future? Ponder on that. The truth.

You wrote that the pastor "is not worth it". Why is that? This is a man who a layperson will look to for spiritual guidance and leadership, and he betrayed your trust? He will do this to others. And you are going to let it all go, under the guidance of your BIL's instructions? So what truths does your inaction inspire?

And note that your attorney said "may" (have to do). Not "must" (have to do) regarding counseling. In my own situation, after 28 years of marriage, there is no counseling possibilities that can fix my marriage, and neither attorney even recommended it. The truth is the truth. If your W can't seek her own individual counseling, why bother attended a session with her? To win something? Another "hoop"?

The 180. Remove yourself from all of them. Focus on yourself, your sons, and your future as a single man. You know you know the truth. Forget all the "hoops". All of them. Time to rid yourself of those people whose only interest is to manipulate you and delay the inevitable. Please. Get out of the spiral atmosphere, running in circles. Full steam ahead. Hold tight to the truth and let no person sway you.

Your ticket has already been punched. You are done. Get your funds together and file for divorce and be done with it.


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## Jasel

You should really consider stopping contact with all of them. I thought the pastor was a bad idea to begin with. Therapists and counselors can be bad enough with formal training and years of education, I wouldn't get my hopes up for a pastor to accomplish much if anything. 

It sounds like your wife's family is just as screwed up as she is. Maybe not to the same extent, but it doesn't sound like they're right in the head either. You should consider cutting them off especially. Or at least seriously cutting back on the contact and letting THEM deal with THEIR sister themselves.

Also your children are grown and pretty much know what is going on. Your constant involvement in your wife's problems are not doing them or you any favors. She has screwed you over for decades and reading your thread, it's like you just keep giving her opportunity to do it over and over and over again.

She is a liar. She can talk to her siblings, her pastor, her kids, you, etc she is just going to keep lying. What are you trying to accomplish? What are you trying to prove? Why don't you simply go about your day, ignore this woman who has been screwing you over for most of your marriage with no remorse, save up money for the divorce and just leave??

Stop talking to her siblings about her or anything else. Stop talking to pastors about her. Stop talking to her about her behavior. Stop talking to your kids about her.

START. MOVING. ON.

This woman has wasted more than enough of your time, your sanity, your happiness and your life. If you want to forgive her then fine. That doesn't mean it's your job, responsibility or obligation to fix her, communicate with her, or be there for her. Stop telling her you love her. You've tried and failed repeatedly to reach and change this woman. You need to start thinking about yourself and stop trying to satisify everyone else.

I still can't wrap my head around why you're going through all this. Sorry if my post came off as harsh but I've followed this thread from the start and it's like watching someone having a nightmare they're not even trying to wake up from.


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## bfree

Thorburn,

Your wife and her entire family are emotional vampires. They are sucking the life out of you all the time. You are expending so much energy doing their bidding that you can't do what you need and must do for yourself. It doesn't matter if you think they are trying to hurt or help you. They are using you for their own ends. A good friend of mine always said don't p!ss on my leg and tell me its raining. How much rain do they need to bring into your life before you have had enough and demand THE SON? And no I did not misspell the last two words.


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## vi_bride04

It has been about a month since her family has been engaging you wanting you to be the "middle man" to get her back on track or whatever "intervention" they are trying to pull off.

In that month time frame, how has dealing with them HELPED your situation? What has interacting with them done to you in a POSITIVE WAY?

If you can name at least 5 things that have helped YOU (not them, you) by interacting with them please share. 

I have seen nothing but manipulation, lying and playing on your sympathies and kind heart for their own benefit. 

BLOOD IS THICKER THAN WATER and you don't need people like that in your life.


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## karole

Thor, It's time you think about yourself. You have complied with EVERY SINGLE REQUEST her family has asked of you. You have gone above and beyond your obligations as a husband, BIL or family member should. These people have said from the beginning they were planning an intervention and you have given them every single thing they've asked for in order to accomplish that and they still haven't done it. Your wife screwing on tape should have been evidence enough - what more do they need? To me, that says it all. Please, let your wife go and let her family go. You need to take care of yourself. You don't owe your wife, her family or your pastor anything. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Also, I thought you were on vacation this week???? Go somewhere and get away from all of them for a few days.


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## Louise7

Good grief. This family of your wife's get my 'dysfunctional family of the year' award. The 'pastor' is a disgrace to the title.

You are a grown man and fortunately you can tell all of the above to go take a hike. Have you saved the dollars for the lawyer yet? I hope so. While you are waiting for the divorce papers to be written up, copy the VAR recordings and send them to the 'pastor'. Let's see how much of a liar he thinks you are then. 

If you tell wifey to leave, yup, you'll probably wind up in jail but at the moment you are living in a jail anyway.


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## Shaggy

If her family really cared about her, why aren't they stepping in to either stop her ongoing hook ups or paying for the divorce?

They just keep you spinning and going back in for more.

She's been a serial cheater, in fact lets be honest, she's been living in a one sided open marriage for 19 years at least.

Parts of Her family has even known about it for that long and have tolerated it and kept her secret safe.

Thorburn, these people are not healthy for you, they have not been supporters of your marriage.

If you want closure, have someone get photo evidence of her hookups and send it around. Send the recording to the family, and get out if there.


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## Topical storm

They turned on you with the snap of a finger. Are you still going to the wedding?


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## LostViking

I believe the consensus here is that you should stop engaging your in-laws and pastor.


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## Shaggy

Or you could join the insanity and offer your wife an open marriage. You've been living in one for 20 years, while she as has numerous long term sexual relationships with men that she's been more open and honest with than she has ever been with you.

Frankly, I'd be very curious to know her reaction to you seeing another woman,


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## Thorburn

OK I hear you all loud and clear. Here is what happened today. My Oldest BIL is pis*ed at me for threatening to report the pastor to the District Superintendent and filing an ethics complaint. My middle BIL is cold. 

I was bummed out this morning about this. 

The pastor text me a ton. Basically saying I am wrong, he has a clean conscience (did not apologize for lying), dismissed my lengthy analysis of the situation from a clinical standpoint. He wrote "I categorically reject your clinical analysis. I do not believe you are capable of assessing this situation nor do you have the right to set the ground rules. Could not counsel (my WS) and you unless you are willing to relinquish any control over the ground rules, the process and the outcome. Whether she is a pathological liar or you a pathological control freak. I would need to assess for myself not on the basis of someone else characterization. I only promise to hold you both accountable for your own sin and not let you attack each other".

Everyone I have talked with including you here on TAm get it. Not this idiot. He is the same denomination of the pastor idiot in 1999 who said my WS's A was all my fault. Said if she was a drunk, my fault. Said that as the husband everything in the family is my fault. I swallowed it then I will not now. My WS was let off the hook in 1999 and was not held accountable for anything.

So, I prayed and read my Bible this morning and talked to my neighbor a very good man. He said the pastor is an as* and dont meet with him.

I am going to meet. I told the pastor that I don't agree with everything he said but I am willing to submit in Christ and meet with him.

So he said April 23, which is my b-day, and three years ago my WS started an very sexual EA that evening on my b-day. I almost wrote the pastor back and said no, but I agreed.

I know you all think I am foolish here but the spirit came upon me this morning and laid on my heart to go and do this. Then the spirit laid on my heart what to say. Man talk about a turn around. I will not share at this time but I am amazed at what came to my mind.

Then my oldest son called me, he is visiting my mother. He said, dad take a shower, get out of there and spend the day with me and grandma. I did not want to do this, she lives over 2 hours away. I took a shower and went. What a great day. Then I went to visit my youngest son and he said, dad, stop listening to the family, read the bible like you have been and follow it. He said stop listening to these people.

When I was at my mother's house someone gave me a check for $1,000.00 for the divorce. A very godly soul.

So the family has now laid this new condition on me, meet with the pastor and my WS. I know what they want. They want the marriage to work. As I have done everything they asked me and it has not turned my WS around as they expect, they say do this one last thing and see what she does. Do this and you are done. Hold it, wait, now do this. Hold it, it did not work, hmmm do this. 

The pastor told me to D my WS and follow through. He has not told me anything different. But he met my WS and I believe he bought her story and now I am wrong. I told him for me to even consider taking her back she would have to throw out her clothes, renounce her toxic friends and come clean on everything. This is what he is trying to prevent, me having any demands. He said I can't demand anything. Thus, I can't control the ground rules, the procedure nor the outcome.

My oldest BIL told me to D as quickly as I can.

My middle BIL told me Friday, Mac get the money as quickly as you can and I am praying that you do.

I text them the other day and said I will have the money soon.

I told them that I received almost half today surprisingly and thanked my middle BIL for praying, I said your prayers are working. I know this is pis*ing them off, they did not expect it. The pastor more then likely already knows this.

My youngest son said what is going on? They told you to D mom why the change. I said they are back pedaling because I believe they did not think I would follow through nor get the money. They are in panic mode. Mac is getting the money, what are we going to tell our sister. Mac is going to tell her that we said D you and we are praying for him to get the money, but we really did not think he would. The pastor is thinking what the heck. Mac told me he had no money and might be facing bankruptcy so there was no harm in me saying this, what will I tell his WS? Oh, sweety, I really did not think he would do this.

Every time I have not listened to what was suggested to me (and I have only done this a few times) and I felt it was not the right thing to do, it has really worked out for me. e.g. cutting her off from the money. Heck, I got almost $300.00 more in the bank deposited from a check she gave me today and there is another check for $400 or $500 on the table and she said there is another check coming. So all the advice on cutting the money that I got here, from my attorney, my BILs, my pastor ect, I did not follow. And me following the spirit in this matter is still going great guns for me.

Now the spirit is telling me to meet with the idiot pastor. I have been given a script so to speak that will turn this thing on it's head. I feel it. I could not have come up with a better one on my own. I felt trapped by the family and that the pastor has an agenda. And did not know what to do. As of this morning I am rejoicing. I really am.

The pastor is one controlling and proud man. I have worked with and served with this type. He has snidely texted me and said we should both stop talking to my oldest BIL. Heck, he is the one who violated ethics here and could be in deep doodoo. I did not give him permission to share this. So he is trying to control me by saying who I should talk with? He should stop and let me decide what to do. No, he is telling me what to do. Controlling. He said there are way too many people in whom you have confided. He wrote that I need to seek advice from someone who is willing to listen impartially to both sides. Then he wrote that he does not think any of my numerous advisers are like that.

Really, what a controlling arse. If I don't go to him then I am not seeking the right counsel. If I don't do what he says I am talking to too many people. Really. Ok, Mac, just come to me, I have God's word for you.

So Focus on the Family is wrong? Dr. Randall Hicks, Dr. Karl Benzio is the founder and director of Lighthouse Network and a board certified psychiatrist, Dr. Diane Langberg, and I could go on and on to the folks I have talked to. They all got it within a minute of when I shared about my WS. They all basically said stop Mac, and said, your WS is lying right? Me, yes. She is blaming you? Me, yes and they went on and on. They knew her behaviors without knowing her. I did not have to explain much. They all said there is little hope for her unless God changes her. They all said she is not ready to stop.

But the pastor (no longer my pastor) has the insight, the expertise, etc to assess this. Of course he does, he is a control freak and called me a pathological control freak, based upon what my WS told him. Yea, I controlled my WS. So much so she cheated on me since at least 1999 many times. So I really had control over her. I am probably the least controlling person in the world unless I find you cheating and lying and cheating and lying over and over again and put demands on you to stop. 

i told him that I have dealt with many acute psychological patients over the years. I told him that I have been invited early last fall to do two groups at the hospital on two acute psych units. I said this is unprecedented to allow and outsider to come in the hospital to do this and to be unsupervised from day one, when they have a full staff of psychologists and psychiatrists on board. I told him I felt I have a Ph.D in adultery. I know the person my WS is and that she is a chronic pathological liar and a serial cheater. I said it is rare for a woman to say that she is all these things because her husband looked at porn. I said until her I have not run into one person who used this as an excuse for there A. Many women expressed pain and hurt, etc when they find their husbands looked at porn but not one person since I have been in counseling has used this excuse and I have counseled I am sure over 2000 individuals and couples, maybe over 3000. 

Whatever his agenda is I don't care. I agreed to his conditions for the counseling session. Believe me, once that is done, my ground rules, my demands, my conditions, my view of what the outcome will be is firm and don't apply once we end that session, and I have made these things firm to him. He did not like that so he thinks that he has won. That I will not demand them. What he does not understand is that my agreement is during the counseling session, not before nor after. I told him I agree to his conditions, ground rules and outcomes for this counseling session. I have not agreed to anything before it nor after it. My conditions, ground rules and outcomes are firm. He thinks that he will control whether I file for D. I know it. He thinks he won this as well. I can control Mac. He is coming to my counseling session, he submitted in Christ. Yep, I did. For that session.

I will not be controlled by and idiot. Let him think I am submitting to his great authority. For however long him and his wife will meet with us on the 23rd will be interesting. I have a story to tell and it will be a dozy. It will be the truth. I will not lie. I know the pastor expects me to tell my story as he thinks I will tell it. He thinks he knows my story. I have shared with him over the past two months a lot. 

But believe me he does not know Mac's story. And my WS does not know Mac's story. She has played the victim long enough. they both think they know what I will say. They think they know the script. The pastor has been told what I might say from my BIL and my BIL told me what to say. Mac will tell the truth and Mac's story has not been shared with anyone, nor told. Even my WS does not know the story.

No one on TAM knows the real whole story of Mac. 

I am going to bed. I had a great day today.


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## the guy

No body on TAM know anything about anybody...thtas why we can see between the trees through the forest!


I think the poeple you are dealing with are getting in the way.

Your support system is getting in the way.....oldest BIL....yougnest BIL...pastor..... all of them seem to be getting in the way.

But then agian, I'm just the guy sitting here...far far away from your sithch.....

Maybe its time to find your self.............with out the inlaws?


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## karole

What kind of Christians pray for something that they don't really want to happen? That is beyond strange. 

Take the tape and play it for the pastor. That should shut him up rather quickly - then walk out.

Thorn - nobody has to "get it" except YOU! This is your life and your so-called wife does not deserve to be a part of your future. You have put up with more than any husband should ever have to. Take care of yourself and do what is right for YOU! Forget about everybody else and all the garbage they are spewing at you.


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## turnera

Thorburn said:


> The pastor text me a ton. Basically saying I am wrong, he has a clean conscience (did not apologize for lying), dismissed my lengthy analysis of the situation from a clinical standpoint. He wrote "I categorically reject your clinical analysis. I do not believe you are capable of assessing this situation


Yeah, cos the TWO SEMESTERS in psychology classes make him a MUCH MORE QUALIFIED person to assess it. :rofl:


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## turnera

Thorburn said:


> The pastor told me to D my WS and follow through. He has not told me anything different. But he met my WS and I believe he bought her story and now I am wrong. I told him for me to even consider taking her back she would have to throw out her clothes, renounce her toxic friends and come clean on everything. This is what he is trying to prevent, me having any demands. He said I can't demand anything. Thus, I can't control the ground rules, the procedure nor the outcome.


Of course you can't control anything. But yourself. And YOU will not take her back unless she does those things.

_Entirely_ her choice.


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## turnera

Thorburn said:


> I will not be controlled by and idiot. Let him think I am submitting to his great authority. For however long him and his wife will meet with us on the 23rd will be interesting.


And on the 24th, you will report him for ethics violations and harmful actions.


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## vi_bride04

turnera said:


> And on the 24th, you will report him for ethics violations and harmful actions.


:iagree:

Consequences...don't let him continue to get away with this kind of behavior. He is in a position of power that people greatly admire and respect. He has alot of influence over people and SHOULDN'T. 

I wouldn't' be surprised if he was banging your WS....


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## Chaparral

I think their goal is to save your wifes soul. If you divorce her for adultery, the only thing she can do to save her soul is to remain celibate. They know she can't do that and her soul will be lost.

Like her moma said, she's not a Christian, she seems to be lost anyway.


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## Thorburn

He said he was there with his wife when they met. Don't know.

I talked to the the pastor's district superintendent today and he gave me the procedures to deal with the pastor. I will do this after the meeting next week. I know why my oldest BIL is upset with me. A similar thing happened to him years ago and he was fired from his church and had to go to another church. He was under discipline for a while (I think a year). For lying.

yes the family should had confronted her. Don't know why.

I think they blame me and won't tell me, that is what my gut is saying.

Yea one pastor writes an email saying I did not discuss porn at all and that I lied and they believe him. No fact checking and then jump to the conclusion and say Mac is lying and they did it behind my back. If my middle BIL had not sent me a text by mistake I would not know about it. Funny, I discussed porn with the pastor the first time we met at length, he talked to me the following week and said this is what I need to do for it and here is the link, then the following week we spoke again and I said I looked at the website and agree that is what I should do and we talked further about it. Three meetings. Two specifically about porn. He writes my BIL and says, Mac never brought porn up in our meetings. When I confronted him the following day, he said, "Oh, you are correct, I forgot, I will correct it with the family". He did, but put his spin on it, apologized to them but still has not to me and I confronted him about it. He says he has a clear conscious.

Talked with the attorney today. I told him what is going on and my attitude. His response was "praise God". He is sending me the contract and I will send him over $1000.00 and should have the rest soon.

The family is pis*ed at me. Let them. No I am not going to the wedding. They will come to her rescue. I now see it. 

My youngest son told me yesterday again that he thinks his mother is demon possessed. I don't know. My experience in this is very limited. Not sure what I believe about demons and possession. All I know is that what I faced on several occasions was evil and it is gone. I don't understand it and don't want to go through it again.

I have shown over and over again that I have told the truth. Told them to ask me anything and I will answer. Then one guy who I knew for less then two months tells the family I lied and they believe him and turned against me. Unreal. He then says oh I forgot and tells the family and I say I am reporting him and now they are threatening me with never talking to me again if I do this. They should have confronted him. But that is what they don't do, confront. The pastor lied and says he forgot just like my WS and I told the family over and over again that this is what has pis*ed me off and they give him a pass. A guy they do not know well at all, a guy my BIL met at a denominational conference. A guy who sends out multiple emails about me in violation of ethics.

When I was in Iraq I held a position where I could not report anything a soldier told me. Nothing. Only two specialties were under this rule. One was an officer position and the other an enlisted position. A soldier could have raped a two year old and I could not report it. I faced several commanders and senior NCO;s and even my boss a Colonel who ordered me to reveal things. I refused, I was threatened with disciplinary action if I did not reveal what I knew. I told them to talk to JAG, they did and found out that the Supreme Court upheld this law and I could not reveal anything. The military position that I held and the policy on strict confidentially was challenged years ago and it went all the way to the supreme court and was upheld. I do not agree with the law but I will take things to the grave that soldiers shared with me that I will never be able to reveal. If a soldier threatened suicide to me I could not report it without their consent.

I know confidentiallity. I had been a minister since 1985. Gave it up last year. I know ethics. I violated this years ago and was disciplined. i revealed under pressure what a congregant was doing after the pastor and other elders kept asking me what I knew. They knew I met with the man as they set up the appointment with him and me. He also was a minister. I told them and they confronted the man. He sued. He told me he knew the law and I violated ethics. He was correct. He then dropped it but he would have won. I violated his confidentiallity. I was young in ministry, it was 1988. I learned a lesson. 

So the matter with the pastor will be addressed.

I will work on detaching from the family. This will be hard, very hard. But today I am going to try. Get over the meeting with the pastor and then follow the procedure as outline by his District Superintendent and move on.

Today my WS gave me $500.00 and I will put that in the bank and she said there is more coming. I am posting more items on craigslist to sell today. Someone gave me a brand new dish washer to sell, and I have an almost new tire that is the wrong size for my truck. The dishwasher is sells for over $430.00 and it is brand new and the tire sells for $140.00 and is almost new. I will ask for half.

So my financial crisis is over.


----------



## BK23

Thorburn,

I have been lurking on your thread for quite awhile now, and I just wanted to lend my support and offer my sympathy. Your situation is brutal. Not to sound like a broken record with what other folks here are saying, but it really sounds like you should wash your hands of the whole wretched lot of them.

It sounds like her family is almost as crazy as she is. Guess what? As soon as you get this divorce rolling, they won't be your problem anymore! Just focus on you and your kids, and try to put this car wreck in your rear view. Best of luck to you.


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## karole

Thorn: I hope you have a really good attorney. If you don't, save the extra money to get one. Now is not the time to be trying to save money by hiring a sub-par attorney. Also, call and get a consultation with the best attorneys in your area - whether you intend to hire them or not. Doing this, will prevent your wife from hiring them. It would be a conflict of interest on their part to represent her after they meet with you. You know that she is going to start the "Oh, poor me" to her family and they will most likely help her get an attorney - you need to have a better one. 

Take care of yourself and your boys.


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## BobSimmons

Thorburn said:


> OK I hear you all loud and clear. Here is what happened today. My Oldest BIL is pis*ed at me for threatening to report the pastor to the District Superintendent and filing an ethics complaint. My middle BIL is cold.
> 
> I was bummed out this morning about this.
> 
> The pastor text me a ton. Basically saying I am wrong, he has a clean conscience (did not apologize for lying), dismissed my lengthy analysis of the situation from a clinical standpoint. He wrote "I categorically reject your clinical analysis. I do not believe you are capable of assessing this situation nor do you have the right to set the ground rules. Could not counsel (my WS) and you unless you are willing to relinquish any control over the ground rules, the process and the outcome. Whether she is a pathological liar or you a pathological control freak. I would need to assess for myself not on the basis of someone else characterization. I only promise to hold you both accountable for your own sin and not let you attack each other".
> 
> Everyone I have talked with including you here on TAm get it. Not this idiot. He is the same denomination of the pastor idiot in 1999 who said my WS's A was all my fault. Said if she was a drunk, my fault. Said that as the husband everything in the family is my fault. I swallowed it then I will not now. My WS was let off the hook in 1999 and was not held accountable for anything.
> 
> So, I prayed and read my Bible this morning and talked to my neighbor a very good man. He said the pastor is an as* and dont meet with him.
> 
> I am going to meet. I told the pastor that I don't agree with everything he said but I am willing to submit in Christ and meet with him.
> 
> So he said April 23, which is my b-day, and three years ago my WS started an very sexual EA that evening on my b-day. I almost wrote the pastor back and said no, but I agreed.
> 
> I know you all think I am foolish here but the spirit came upon me this morning and laid on my heart to go and do this. Then the spirit laid on my heart what to say. Man talk about a turn around. I will not share at this time but I am amazed at what came to my mind.
> 
> Then my oldest son called me, he is visiting my mother. He said, dad take a shower, get out of there and spend the day with me and grandma. I did not want to do this, she lives over 2 hours away. I took a shower and went. What a great day. Then I went to visit my youngest son and he said, dad, stop listening to the family, read the bible like you have been and follow it. He said stop listening to these people.
> 
> When I was at my mother's house someone gave me a check for $1,000.00 for the divorce. A very godly soul.
> 
> So the family has now laid this new condition on me, meet with the pastor and my WS. I know what they want. They want the marriage to work. As I have done everything they asked me and it has not turned my WS around as they expect, they say do this one last thing and see what she does. Do this and you are done. Hold it, wait, now do this. Hold it, it did not work, hmmm do this.
> 
> The pastor told me to D my WS and follow through. He has not told me anything different. But he met my WS and I believe he bought her story and now I am wrong. I told him for me to even consider taking her back she would have to throw out her clothes, renounce her toxic friends and come clean on everything. This is what he is trying to prevent, me having any demands. He said I can't demand anything. Thus, I can't control the ground rules, the procedure nor the outcome.
> 
> My oldest BIL told me to D as quickly as I can.
> 
> My middle BIL told me Friday, Mac get the money as quickly as you can and I am praying that you do.
> 
> I text them the other day and said I will have the money soon.
> 
> I told them that I received almost half today surprisingly and thanked my middle BIL for praying, I said your prayers are working. I know this is pis*ing them off, they did not expect it. The pastor more then likely already knows this.
> 
> My youngest son said what is going on? They told you to D mom why the change. I said they are back pedaling because I believe they did not think I would follow through nor get the money. They are in panic mode. Mac is getting the money, what are we going to tell our sister. Mac is going to tell her that we said D you and we are praying for him to get the money, but we really did not think he would. The pastor is thinking what the heck. Mac told me he had no money and might be facing bankruptcy so there was no harm in me saying this, what will I tell his WS? Oh, sweety, I really did not think he would do this.
> 
> Every time I have not listened to what was suggested to me (and I have only done this a few times) and I felt it was not the right thing to do, it has really worked out for me. e.g. cutting her off from the money. Heck, I got almost $300.00 more in the bank deposited from a check she gave me today and there is another check for $400 or $500 on the table and she said there is another check coming. So all the advice on cutting the money that I got here, from my attorney, my BILs, my pastor ect, I did not follow. And me following the spirit in this matter is still going great guns for me.
> 
> Now the spirit is telling me to meet with the idiot pastor. I have been given a script so to speak that will turn this thing on it's head. I feel it. I could not have come up with a better one on my own. I felt trapped by the family and that the pastor has an agenda. And did not know what to do. As of this morning I am rejoicing. I really am.
> 
> The pastor is one controlling and proud man. I have worked with and served with this type. He has snidely texted me and said we should both stop talking to my oldest BIL. Heck, he is the one who violated ethics here and could be in deep doodoo. I did not give him permission to share this. So he is trying to control me by saying who I should talk with? He should stop and let me decide what to do. No, he is telling me what to do. Controlling. He said there are way too many people in whom you have confided. He wrote that I need to seek advice from someone who is willing to listen impartially to both sides. Then he wrote that he does not think any of my numerous advisers are like that.
> 
> Really, what a controlling arse. If I don't go to him then I am not seeking the right counsel. If I don't do what he says I am talking to too many people. Really. Ok, Mac, just come to me, I have God's word for you.
> 
> So Focus on the Family is wrong? Dr. Randall Hicks, Dr. Karl Benzio is the founder and director of Lighthouse Network and a board certified psychiatrist, Dr. Diane Langberg, and I could go on and on to the folks I have talked to. They all got it within a minute of when I shared about my WS. They all basically said stop Mac, and said, your WS is lying right? Me, yes. She is blaming you? Me, yes and they went on and on. They knew her behaviors without knowing her. I did not have to explain much. They all said there is little hope for her unless God changes her. They all said she is not ready to stop.
> 
> But the pastor (no longer my pastor) has the insight, the expertise, etc to assess this. Of course he does, he is a control freak and called me a pathological control freak, based upon what my WS told him. Yea, I controlled my WS. So much so she cheated on me since at least 1999 many times. So I really had control over her. I am probably the least controlling person in the world unless I find you cheating and lying and cheating and lying over and over again and put demands on you to stop.
> 
> i told him that I have dealt with many acute psychological patients over the years. I told him that I have been invited early last fall to do two groups at the hospital on two acute psych units. I said this is unprecedented to allow and outsider to come in the hospital to do this and to be unsupervised from day one, when they have a full staff of psychologists and psychiatrists on board. I told him I felt I have a Ph.D in adultery. I know the person my WS is and that she is a chronic pathological liar and a serial cheater. I said it is rare for a woman to say that she is all these things because her husband looked at porn. I said until her I have not run into one person who used this as an excuse for there A. Many women expressed pain and hurt, etc when they find their husbands looked at porn but not one person since I have been in counseling has used this excuse and I have counseled I am sure over 2000 individuals and couples, maybe over 3000.
> 
> Whatever his agenda is I don't care. I agreed to his conditions for the counseling session. Believe me, once that is done, my ground rules, my demands, my conditions, my view of what the outcome will be is firm and don't apply once we end that session, and I have made these things firm to him. He did not like that so he thinks that he has won. That I will not demand them. What he does not understand is that my agreement is during the counseling session, not before nor after. I told him I agree to his conditions, ground rules and outcomes for this counseling session. I have not agreed to anything before it nor after it. My conditions, ground rules and outcomes are firm. He thinks that he will control whether I file for D. I know it. He thinks he won this as well. I can control Mac. He is coming to my counseling session, he submitted in Christ. Yep, I did. For that session.
> 
> I will not be controlled by and idiot. Let him think I am submitting to his great authority. For however long him and his wife will meet with us on the 23rd will be interesting. I have a story to tell and it will be a dozy. It will be the truth. I will not lie. I know the pastor expects me to tell my story as he thinks I will tell it. He thinks he knows my story. I have shared with him over the past two months a lot.
> 
> But believe me he does not know Mac's story. And my WS does not know Mac's story. She has played the victim long enough. they both think they know what I will say. They think they know the script. The pastor has been told what I might say from my BIL and my BIL told me what to say. Mac will tell the truth and Mac's story has not been shared with anyone, nor told. Even my WS does not know the story.
> 
> No one on TAM knows the real whole story of Mac.
> 
> I am going to bed. I had a great day today.


:scratchhead:


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## Shaggy

Thorburn

I gotta ask, where is she suddenly getting all this money?

Is it 

1. She would have been earning it before but.
A. Was keeping it to finance her hookuos
B. would have earned it if she was working , but she was actually hooking up and telling you she was working.

2. She's getting money from the men she is still hooking up with?

It just seems odd that she's suddenly getting all this money flowing her way when for so long she wasn't.

I can't remember. Have you played the recording with her telling about her affairs to these awful people?


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## phillybeffandswiss

Thorburn, I'm going to be honest.

If you want to give her chance, fix her, fix your family, scared of divorce or whatever that it is fine. It's your life and I'm not going through you trials and tribulations.

Christ isn't telling you to do this, it is all on you. 

You see where he is helping you. You have funds and donations appearing to help you get away from this evil situation. A 2 hour drive turned into a $1000 trip. All those false prophets turned on you nearly at once. A pastor is ready to be sued, for ethics violations, to " save" a marriage. That's evil.

You do not need to go see anyone.


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## Thorburn

karole said:


> Thorn: I hope you have a really good attorney. If you don't, save the extra money to get one. Now is not the time to be trying to save money by hiring a sub-par attorney. Also, call and get a consultation with the best attorneys in your area - whether you intend to hire them or not. Doing this, will prevent your wife from hiring them. It would be a conflict of interest on their part to represent her after they meet with you. You know that she is going to start the "Oh, poor me" to her family and they will most likely help her get an attorney - you need to have a better one.
> 
> Take care of yourself and your boys.


Affaircare gave me great advice on legal stuff. I researched attorneys here in the area. The guy I selected has the same faith I do, just a coincidence. Is one of the highest priced attorneys in the area. Has great credentials and is sharp. I worked with many attorneys in the Army for years and know good ones and bad ones. I know who the attorney is that my WS is talking to. The process is fairly straight forward. The advice I have been given by my attorney has been very comforting. I will lose the war but we will win some battles. I am going no fault. When I file I will file both no fault and fault. Fault is the least common type of D in our state and is very expensive and typically involves folks with lots of assets. We will file both ways to put a little fear in them. If I filed fault everything is on the table. All her adultery etc. Going no fault means that adultery is only one thing considered out of 17 issues. Depending on the master adultery may or may not have a bearing. We know who the master is and she does not consider adultery that serious of a matter. My attorney told me what he suspects will happen and I am prepared. Not as bad as I initially thought but not great. 

Since it looks like the family has turned against me, but on the other hand they are not siding with her yet (I suspect that will be next), all my work has been in vain. I was hoping that they would assist me is talking to her about taking it easy on me. That is now out the window the way things look now. My goal was to have them say to her take less then what you can get due to your adultery. It was worth the shot but it does seem like I lost that battle.

So i know the worst that can happen in D as far as asset settlement. I am hoping that I can get something better.


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## Topical storm

I don't understand why you have to go through all the drama for a divorce? Isn't this thread called "I am back...". That means you gave her enough chances. 

Do you still think your brother in laws are like family now? How about you follow the plan on being nice to your wife collect the money and file for divorce. If you have the meeting with the pastor, and it turns out to be a blame game, how do you know that she will still be giving you money in an orderly fashion?

But also your story is not adding up. How is your wife's story trumping your story every time? Explain how your middle brother in law turned on you all of a sudden and thought you were lying? Why aren't you playing the VAR?

So you raged, drank and were controlling vs your wife's many infidelities. But it seems like she is able to gain favor every time she tells her story and you are left in the dust. How is that? Are you somehow addicted to the drama and can't let go? It's not sounding like you are detaching. True detachment is letting all the family and pastor drama go and not even dealing with it and just waiting for the divorce. Many people here have tried to give you good sound advice and you have ignored it and ended up being backstabbed by your in laws and pastor. It shouldn't have to be like this.


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## karole

Sounds as though you have it covered. Lots of people do not have experience with attorneys and just try to find the cheapest one they can - which is not good. (I worked for attorneys for 25 years). Good luck to you Thornburn - maybe she will grow a conscience and a heart.


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## LostViking

I'm sorry to hear this Thorburn. It looks like you need to just cut your losses and get out of the situation as quickly as you can. 

You might want to ask the lawyer about the possibility of filing for bankruptcy after your divorce is final. Clean the slate of debt and start over. 

In the end your piece of mind is worth more than a retirement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

The next time one of her family members sends you a 'f you' message, attach a clip of her screwing OM to it and hit reply.


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## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Thorburn
> 
> I gotta ask, where is she suddenly getting all this money?
> 
> Is it
> 
> 1. She would have been earning it before but.
> A. Was keeping it to finance her hookuos
> B. would have earned it if she was working , but she was actually hooking up and telling you she was working.
> 
> 2. She's getting money from the men she is still hooking up with?
> 
> It just seems odd that she's suddenly getting all this money flowing her way when for so long she wasn't.
> 
> I can't remember. Have you played the recording with her telling about her affairs to these awful people?


My WS is a licensed cosmetologist. Never worked as one professionally since she went to school in the late 70's. She did hair on the side over the years. In 2012 she gave a PT job at a nursing home and made decent money. Of course she was using this as an excuse to hook up with men. She would tell me she had to work an extra day or two and I found out she wasn't. That is what she did on Feb. 13th. She worked the day before and told me she had to make up the appointments that she could not get done that day. It made no sense. She had me come to work one day and believe me she got it all done in one day. I knew it was bull and put a VAR in our car. She told the dude when she picked him up and he said man you are dressed for winter and she said I have to dress like I am going to work or people would get suspicious.

When I confronted my WS some weeks back. She was telling her brother and sister that I cut her off from the money and she was crying to her youngest rich brother asking for money and saying I was spending money like a mad man. That is when I had to send out the bank statements to her family. She was spending tons of money on herself and I was paying bills. When I confronted her with this and said your family has the bank statements, she handed over all the cash she had and told me she is going to work more hours. She is. Sometimes four to five days a week. The checks are showing that. 

So all the extra money she is giving me are checks from her work. She is also selling our household stuff and giving me the money. In Feb. and early March she was not giving me a penny and on top of that she was spending money from our joint account.

The recording. At present I don't know what I will do with it. Sell it on ebay to a friend and let him/her do a website on it. Maybe a Russian friend. Some on TAM have it and have listened to the crap. My youngest son heard some of it. My WS heard some of it and says it is just music. Not sure what I will do with it. It is not legal but my attorney says don't worry about it.


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## Thorburn

chapparal said:


> I think their goal is to save your wifes soul. If you divorce her for adultery, the only thing she can do to save her soul is to remain celibate. They know she can't do that and her soul will be lost.
> 
> Like her moma said, she's not a Christian, she seems to be lost anyway.


They do love her and that is their goal. In spite of what they are doing to me their end game is to get her on the straight and narrow. I think it is a great goal. They used me to get to that goal and I believe they used me in a genuine way. I know that may sound strange, but I am the one living with her and what they asked me to do was not over the top. But it did not work and they are frustrated. Then the pastor. I think they see this as their last hope. My WS opened up to him and his wife. And by me threatening to end that relationship put them into a tail spin. Like my oldest BIL told me right before he hung up on me and was yelling at me uncontrollably, I set this up, I brought this pastor into your life, my sister went to see him and his wife and now you are ruining everything by cutting him off. I get it. He did all those things and things were going favorably in his mind. He and the pastor were talking (unethically) but the pastor was sharing things with him.

The problem is they put there hope on one more last thing. They told me to tell her something. I did. Nothing from her, she did not change. Then do this, nothing again. She is going to a ball game with her younger brother, he will get to her, nope. Now the pastor. He can do it, he is one of us. Maybe he did get to her, I don't see it. He said he did and that she repented.

Now it is the meeting. My BIL told me to basically lie. Take the blame for it all. I said I heard you and I can do it. He said do it when he was mad at me. I can do it but I won't. I have another plan, the real story of Mac. Never before told. It will be the truth. Not that I have not told the truth. I just never shared this. 

My WS is expecting me to say when I was in my mother's womb I drew dirty pictures and start from there. She is expecting to hear the old story of Mac. The story she has heard over and over again. The story I shared in counseling with her over the years. I know her story. I heard it enough. The pastor told me her story. I ruined her. I drove her to other men because I looked at porn. My WS has told this story over and over again for the past 3 years. It is all Mac's fault.

The real story of Mac has never been told. Man, I almost shared it. I can't yet. Just in case she is reading this stuff.


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## Thorburn

the guy said:


> No body on TAM know anything about anybody...thtas why we can see between the trees through the forest!
> 
> 
> I think the poeple you are dealing with are getting in the way.
> 
> Your support system is getting in the way.....oldest BIL....yougnest BIL...pastor..... all of them seem to be getting in the way.
> 
> But then agian, I'm just the guy sitting here...far far away from your sithch.....
> 
> Maybe its time to find your self.............with out the inlaws?


They are no longer my support system. I fired them.


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## tom67

I would say if ws tries to spin things in this "meeting" listen for a while then play some of the tape then smile and walk out.


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## BK23

You have nothing to gain by attending this meeting. I suspect you are walking into a complete ambush. Think of it this way, what could possibly happen at this meeting that would make things any better? It's just going to be a biased pastor piling on, and you on your heels trying to defend against everyone in the room.


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## karole

I don't understand - I thought your BIL told you to divorce her - the pastor told you to divorce her so why the sudden turnaround??? You played the recording for her brother didn't you? How can they now say it was your fault? She screwed other men on multiple occasions - what more do they need????? Why do you want to subject yourself to the torment of meeting with the pastor and your wife? You have nothing to gain from it. You are going into this meeting thinking you will change their minds and they are thinking the same thing about you. They think they can convince you this is all your fault. This makes no sense.


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## MattMatt

Then take this private?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Bring your kids with you. Or a good buddy.


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## CantSitStill

Wish I knew what you were talking about Thorburn but I trust you know what you're doing. I'm sure you'll tell us when you can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris989

..


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## Chaparral

Anytime you take a thread private you lose a LOT of readers that can benifit from reading the thread. I almost never browse private. If a thread is carried over subscribers are usually taken too but not always.


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## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Yeah, cos the TWO SEMESTERS in psychology classes make him a MUCH MORE QUALIFIED person to assess it. :rofl:



As his District Superintendent told me this morning. He is being arrogant. The DS did ask me to reveal the pastor and I did. He said that this will be held in strictest confidence. I do believe him. He asked me to inform him what happened when I confront the pastor next week. This denomination has set procedures and I told the DS I would do it their way. I am not a member of the church so I have nothing to lose. My BIL might be brought in to testify and if he lies and it is found out he will be fired. He is almost 60 years old has seven kids, one about to be married, very little money, no skills, so he has a lot to lose if he lies. He does not know this pastor very well and he had been disciplined once in his career and was fired so he knows what can happen in these cases. He is in a different district so it will will involve two DS's and it will not be pretty. I belonged to this denomination years ago and they can be pretty strict on their pastors. All my BIL would have had to do was tell the pastor apologize to Mac and it will be no big deal. The pastor won't, too much pride and arrogance.

He may not have had any psychology depending on where he went to school. He may not even have had counseling courses. One of my professors in grad school was a pioneer in Christian counseling. Unfortunately he past away last year or I would be in contact with him. I learned a lot from him. He had a national radio program and was a great guy.

Since 1997 I have over 9000 verifiable clinical hours in doing counseling. Prior to 1997 I had two years in clinical supervision, one basic and one advance, so that would count for another 4000. 

So the pastor says verbatim (oh the memories of writing verbatim s in clinical supervision); "I do not believe that you are capable of assessing this situation nor do you have the right to set the ground rules....." But me the pastor has God given insight to you and your WS. I can, Mac, I can set the ground rules.

He has not told me what they are. He has not told me what the ground rules are, what the process is and what he expects as an outcome. He did tell me that I have relinquish any control over the ground rules, the process and the outcome. So he knows. 

In counseling, I sit down with the client and ask what their goals are. Sometimes I have to challenge them and ask them to rethink them. There are times where we have to change their goals, if they met their original goals or if other things come up. When I do a treatment plan the outcome/s is/are discussed. My ground rules are fairly simple. We also go over confidentiality. At the first meeting. The client knows what to expect.

The pastor is in complete control. Don't tell Mac a thing. He made me agree to this and he did not explain a thing. What are the ground rules, the process and the outcome he has in mind? He did not tell me. So he forces me to trust him.


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> I'm sorry to hear this Thorburn. It looks like you need to just cut your losses and get out of the situation as quickly as you can.
> 
> You might want to ask the lawyer about the possibility of filing for bankruptcy after your divorce is final. Clean the slate of debt and start over.
> 
> In the end your piece of mind is worth more than a retirement.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bankruptcy is an option but right now I am doing ok. Might change soon but I am hoping that things continue to work in my favor.


----------



## turnera

He can't FORCE you to do anything. You have CHOSEN to trust him. Let's be fair here. You have pretty much ignored the advice you've been given here and done things the way you feel it needs to be done. And you've discovered time and again that you continue to get screwed over.

Ready to listen?


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## carolinadreams

Mac why are you worrying about these things? 
Your focus seems to be all over the place. The pastor is only an issue if you let him be. Even your soon to be ex-wifes family are only an issue a help or a hindrance to the degree you let them be.

I've not read every thread here as carefully as I could but it seems like you are making things more complex than they need to be. Your wife seems unrepentant. 

Focus on your well being, and on your sons. Everything else is distraction.


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## Shaggy

Mac walk away from the idiot unethical pastor. Report him and move on.

Seriously. Offer you wife an open marriage, but tell her she must come clean first, and she must accept you also dating. Her reaction will give you much more insight than this noise from her family.

You know what they really fear? When you divorce her, she will truly show her colors and they will all be known as the family of cheat easy divorced chick who will bang anything. So they instead want you to stay married to her, because then she is your problem to deal with.

Yes these people are really that cold and selfish.


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## Thorburn

karole said:


> I don't understand - I thought your BIL told you to divorce her - the pastor told you to divorce her so why the sudden turnaround??? You played the recording for her brother didn't you? How can they now say it was your fault? She screwed other men on multiple occasions - what more do they need????? Why do you want to subject yourself to the torment of meeting with the pastor and your wife? You have nothing to gain from it. You are going into this meeting thinking you will change their minds and they are thinking the same thing about you. They think they can convince you this is all your fault. This makes no sense.


I can't explain it myself other then I feel led to do this. Just like when I was told by my attorney, my friends, her family, the pastor to cut her off from the money, people here on TAM and I didn't. I was facing financial disaster due to what my WS was doing and she was keeping all her money and my son's SSD check and taking money out of our joint account. 

Just this week along she has given me almost $800.00.

I know what is going to happen with the pastor and my WS as far as what they will say.

It is an ambush. I am working on a written script. It is a counter offensive. When I was in the Air Force prior to switching to the Army I had no training in tactics, defensive or offensive. I was station in Turkey from 1979 to 1980. I saw a guy get his brains blown out who was within about six feet of me. I saw everything. He was not an Airman but a Turk and I took cover. And then got out of there. I worked in postal operations and I had to go to the Ankara airport 7 days a week to pick up about 5,000 pounds of mail every day. It was me and a Turkish driver. I was allowed to carry a model 15 .38 revolver. I never did. I just kept it in the arms room. The airport was about 30 miles each way. We had an office at the Airport but there were no U.S. Military there, except me. One day on the military side of the runway I was supervising about 11 Turks. That day I had an interpreter with me who met me at the airport. I think I had this interpreter 5 times I was there in Turkey, most days I was on my own. On this particular day a para military unit about 50 strong took over the airport and held me hostage. Through my interpreter I was informed that they thought I was a spy and they had orders to kill me. I was about 22 years old. I was scared shi*less. After being interrogated for about 3 to 4 hours I was at a loss. I feared being tortured. For what? Freaken mail. I was a postacı (Turkish for mailman). I was on the runway and a Russian plane landed and parked behind me. I told the interpreter that I am leaving for the Russian plane. He said, "Mac they have orders to shoot you". At that time I had two guys with rifles pointed at me. I told the interpreter if they miss they will hit the Russian plane, tell them that and he did and I picked up the classified material and ran. I heard the safeties click on the rifles and I thought I was a dead man. No shot was fired. Long story but I made it safely back to base with the mail and then had to be debriefed by a rep from the embassy. I faced death that day. I developed my own tactic for dealing with the enemy and it worked. Might have failed but it did work.

In the 80's and 90's in the Army I was taught various military tactics. Defensive, offensive, etc. One time we were training in counter ambush tactics. The best one is to go back the way you came. But if the ambushers are good they already know that tactic is the one that is typically used by us and they plan for it. We were "in the field" training. The tactic we were learning and practicing was a counter ambush tactic. Like the famous Chinese guerilla fighter, Mao Tse-tung, once said, &#147;In every apparent disadvantage, some advantage is to be found.&#148; We attacked the attacker. The "enemy" was taken off guard as they thought we would run back the way we came. Instead we stormed them. We had practice this tactic as a team. We lost some guys but we would had lost everyone if we run back the way we came, they had a machine gun hidden and locked on that exit. We were using blanks were wearing sensors to indicate whether you were shot and how severe. Most of our team survived. Had we taken defensive positions or ran back the way we came we would have lost everyone.

None of these tactics are foolproof.

But my approach next week is to attack the attacker. I won't be mean and it will be a surprise they won't see it coming. They think they know what I am going to say. The pastor has been briefed. Funny thing is he and my WS has no clue about what is coming down.


----------



## BK23

Thorburn said:


> I can't explain it myself other then I feel led to do this. Just like when I was told by my attorney, my friends, her family, the pastor to cut her off from the money, people here on TAM and I didn't. I was facing financial disaster due to what my WS was doing and she was keeping all her money and my son's SSD check and taking money out of our joint account.
> 
> Just this week along she has given me almost $800.00.
> 
> I know what is going to happen with the pastor and my WS as far as what they will say.
> 
> It is an ambush. I am working on a written script. It is a counter offensive. When I was in the Air Force prior to switching to the Army I had no training in tactics, defensive or offensive. I was station in Turkey from 1979 to 1980. I saw a guy get his brains blown out who was within about six feet of me. I saw everything. He was not an Airman but a Turk and I took cover. And then got out of there. I worked in postal operations and I had to go to the Ankara airport 7 days a week to pick up about 5,000 pounds of mail every day. It was me and a Turkish driver. I was allowed to carry a model 15 .38 revolver. I never did. I just kept it in the arms room. The airport was about 30 miles each way. We had an office at the Airport but there were no U.S. Military there, except me. One day on the military side of the runway I was supervising about 11 Turks. That day I had an interpreter with me who met me at the airport. I think I had this interpreter 5 times I was there in Turkey, most days I was on my own. On this particular day a para military unit about 50 strong took over the airport and held me hostage. Through my interpreter I was informed that they thought I was a spy and they had orders to kill me. I was about 22 years old. I was scared shi*less. After being interrogated for about 3 to 4 hours I was at a loss. I feared being tortured. For what? Freaken mail. I was a postacı (Turkish for mailman). I was on the runway and a Russian plane landed and parked behind me. I told the interpreter that I am leaving for the Russian plane. He said, "Mac they have orders to shoot you". At that time I had two guys with rifles pointed at me. I told the interpreter if they miss they will hit the Russian plane, tell them that and he did and I picked up the classified material and ran. I heard the safeties click on the rifles and I thought I was a dead man. No shot was fired. Long story but I made it safely back to base with the mail and then had to be debriefed by a rep from the embassy. I faced death that day. I developed my own tactic for dealing with the enemy and it worked. Might have failed but it did work.
> 
> In the 80's and 90's in the Army I was taught various military tactics. Defensive, offensive, etc. One time we were training in counter ambush tactics. The best one is to go back the way you came. But if the ambushers are good they already know that tactic is the one that is typically used by us and they plan for it. We were "in the field" training. The tactic we were learning and practicing was a counter ambush tactic. Like the famous Chinese guerilla fighter, Mao Tse-tung, once said, “In every apparent disadvantage, some advantage is to be found.” We attacked the attacker. The "enemy" was taken off guard as they thought we would run back the way we came. Instead we stormed them. We had practice this tactic as a team. We lost some guys but we would had lost everyone if we run back the way we came, they had a machine gun hidden and locked on that exit. We were using blanks were wearing sensors to indicate whether you were shot and how severe. Most of our team survived. Had we taken defensive positions or ran back the way we came we would have lost everyone.
> 
> None of these tactics are foolproof.
> 
> But my approach next week is to attack the attacker. I won't be mean and it will be a surprise they won't see it coming. They think they know what I am going to say. The pastor has been briefed. Funny thing is he and my WS has no clue about what is coming down.


Thorburn,

it really stinks that you are in this situation, but I'm not understanding what you are thinking right now. You've got to ask yourself--"WHAT IS BEST FOR ME?" There is no possible world in which a counseling session with a wife you are divorcing a pastor that hates your guts will in any way work out in your favor. The best case scenario is you make a big scene and nothing happens. Please drop this, and focus on yourself and getting rid of all these toxic people.


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## LostViking

This is all very strange. I do not understand why you wish to engage with this pastor. Why is it your goal to defeat him?

You have told us WHAT you intend to do, but not WHY. 

How taking on this pastor is supposed to aid in the speeding up of divorce procedings and expediting the end of this sham marriage is absolutely beyond me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

You all may be right. But so far I got my oldest son back he is not cursing me day and night and he is his sweet old self. He calls me about a dozen times a day and I will be picking him up at my mothers tomorrow. I got money if flowing in, my WS is working her butt off. Today I refinished a table that we got for $15 and I am going to sell it for almost $300.00. I was covered in saw dust from head to toe and looked like Casper. I started it this morning and worked on it off and on all day. All it needs is some poly and it is done. My WS painted a table and it is almost ready to sell.

This is my D money my friends. Last month I had nothing. I mean zero, nil ch, nota. 

The pastor thing is my last thing. I know what my WS told him and his wife. They bought it, hook line and sinker. I am sure she said, Mac looked at women when we got married. We would go out and handing hands and Mac looked at another woman, it crushed me. Killed me inside. then he looked at porn. It made me numb. I lost who I was. I lost my soul. Mac did this to me. and oh he was mean, very mean. he yelled at me. You know he drank? I did not care, I needed men because Mac was not there. I got lonely. Blah blah blah.

I heard it all. When ever she cheats this is her way. Funny how she forgets to mention the years from 1981 to around 1998 when things were great and she had no complaints, And from 2000 till 2009. when things were great. During those times she might had been cheating, I don't know for sure, some family members say there were times they think she was cheating. But, during those times she never once complained to her family about me. IT was only when she was involved with other men that I was evil. That is when the family heard how bad I was, not during the good times. 

I already know what she shared with the pastor about those years, she already shared with someone about how rotten those years were and she does not know that I know. She thinks that I am going to talk about the good years. She thinks I am going to say, hey 1982 till 1998 were great and so was 2000 to 2009. She has already told the pastor how rotten those years were as well. He thinks the whole marriage sucked and that it was all my fault from the very beginning. She has rewritten the entire marriage as one from hel*.

But all I am going to say again is that there is a big surprise coming. And the script they think they are going to get won't be said.


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> This is all very strange. I do not understand why you wish to engage with this pastor. Why is it your goal to defeat him?
> 
> You have told us WHAT you intend to do, but not WHY.
> 
> How taking on this pastor is supposed to aid in the speeding up of divorce procedings and expediting the end of this sham marriage is absolutely beyond me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is strange. i am telling you the spirit laid something on my heart the other day and I would have never planned it on my own. I have no goal to defeat the idiot. He has already done that to himself. These types aren't worth it. Sure I will file the complaint, he might get fired, he might not. I am not looking to destroy him. That is not my goal at this point. It really does not have anything to do with him. He is just the pawn. 

I am telling you right now. I could go into another lengthy story. I have served under this type three times in the past. Very long stories. Liars, control freaks, manipulators and until revealed or they tried to kill themselves they were found out who they really were. And I allowed them to control me. One I was in grad school. The other I was with from 1987 till about 1997 and man did he manipulate and control me. The other was in 1999 when he blamed me for my WS's A. That is when I left the church. I stayed in ministry as a chaplain but did not darken a church until this guy over a month ago. I did not know he was like this. 

I can't explain it. Does not make sense. Did not make sense when my son kept cursing at me first thing in the morning and when I got home from work and I all I said was I love you and I am praying for you. My son made a radical change the other week.

Did not make sense when I did not cut my WS off from the money. But that is how I felt led. And it paid off and still is paying off.

And this does not make sense. I just feel it will work.

Won't speed up the D. I can't file right now anyway. Might be able to next week.

Amazing how we are meeting on my B-day.


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## Thorburn

turnera said:


> He can't FORCE you to do anything. You have CHOSEN to trust him. Let's be fair here. You have pretty much ignored the advice you've been given here and done things the way you feel it needs to be done. And you've discovered time and again that you continue to get screwed over.
> 
> Ready to listen?


I don't trust him one bit. He is an idiot. A man who thinks he is God's gift to the church. Arrogant and full of pride. He is a pawn. My B-day is coming up and that is the night we are meeting.


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## LostViking

So........

God is telling you to do this?


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## turnera

Thorburn said:


> I don't trust him one bit. He is an idiot. A man who thinks he is God's gift to the church. Arrogant and full of pride. He is a pawn. My B-day is coming up and that is the night we are meeting.


 Then why did you say he is forcing you to trust him?

I'll check back the day after your birthday and see if there's a new reason to stay involved in the drama. Good luck.


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> So........
> 
> God is telling you to do this?


Not exactly sure. I feel like it. Could be wrong. I am not one to say God told me to do anything. Just feel led by the spirit from time to time. And those feeling have paid off lately. I definitely have tons of peace right now and have had peace for a while. I am very positive and other then the morning after my BILs attacked me I have been very upbeat. The morning after my BILs attacked me I felt bummed for a while but I came up with a plan and felt it was the spirit leading me. I was laying on my bed praying. I would not have come up with this idea on my own.

So it might be God. Might be the hot dogs I ate. Might be that I have a craving for Puffin.

Maybe I am the reincarnated Mad Irishman from Braveheart. 

All I can say is that when I have followed this feeling over the past few months very positive things have happened.


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## carolinadreams

Mac God isn't telling you to strive with these people, this is a conflict with no benefit. Pray and then sit down and read through Proverbs, and ask if this isn't your pride wanting you to rebuke a man who should know better.


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## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Then why did you say he is forcing you to trust him?
> 
> I'll check back the day after your birthday and see if there's a new reason to stay involved in the drama. Good luck.


If I conveyed that I misspoke. In his mind that is what he wants me to do, trust him, but for him it is all about control. I told him in a text I don't trust him and he went off on me. I don't trust him one bit. He is trying to control me. He thinks he is. He can't take any criticism at all. He is very insecure but has a shell of authority to compensate for it. He lied. When confronted by me he would not apologize. After repeated replies back to him stating that a simply apology would go along way he stated that he has a clean conscious. No apology. Why? Because in his mind he is going to discipline me, make me repent, bring me back to the straight and narrow. If he apologizes he showed that he sinned. And he can't face it. It will show weakness on his part. He does not want to admit that he sinned to me because in his view I am the sinner. I worked with these types. They are above us. How dare you challenge me. I am God's authority over you. I tell you how wrong you are. You don't tell me. I am clean you are unclean. That is his agenda. He thinks I am living in open rebellion. Submit Mac. Submit, boy. He thinks I am a lousy sinner who is living in sin and is unrepentant. This has to do with me challenging him.

Like his DS said, he is arrogant.

I don't care about him. I really don't, after next week he is history. 

I was wondering why his church is so small. Now I know why.


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## strugglinghusband

Thorburn said:


> As his District Superintendent told me this morning. * He is being arrogant*. The DS did ask me to reveal the pastor and I did. He said that this will be held in strictest confidence. I do believe him. He asked me to inform him what happened when I confront the pastor next week. This denomination has set procedures and I told the DS I would do it their way. I am not a member of the church so I have nothing to lose. My BIL might be brought in to testify and if he lies and it is found out he will be fired. He is almost 60 years old has seven kids, one about to be married, very little money, no skills, so he has a lot to lose if he lies. He does not know this pastor very well and he had been disciplined once in his career and was fired so he knows what can happen in these cases. He is in a different district so it will will involve two DS's and it will not be pretty. I belonged to this denomination years ago and they can be pretty strict on their pastors. All my BIL would have had to do was tell the pastor apologize to Mac and it will be no big deal. *The pastor won't, too much pride and arrogance.*
> He may not have had any psychology depending on where he went to school. He may not even have had counseling courses. One of my professors in grad school was a pioneer in Christian counseling. Unfortunately he past away last year or I would be in contact with him. I learned a lot from him. He had a national radio program and was a great guy.
> 
> Since 1997 I have over 9000 verifiable clinical hours in doing counseling. Prior to 1997 I had two years in clinical supervision, one basic and one advance, so that would count for another 4000.
> 
> So the pastor says verbatim (oh the memories of writing verbatim s in clinical supervision); "I do not believe that you are capable of assessing this situation nor do you have the right to set the ground rules....." But me the pastor has God given insight to you and your WS. I can, Mac, I can set the ground rules.
> 
> He has not told me what they are. He has not told me what the ground rules are, what the process is and what he expects as an outcome. He did tell me that I have relinquish any control over the ground rules, the process and the outcome. So he knows.
> 
> In counseling, I sit down with the client and ask what their goals are. Sometimes I have to challenge them and ask them to rethink them. There are times where we have to change their goals, if they met their original goals or if other things come up. When I do a treatment plan the outcome/s is/are discussed. My ground rules are fairly simple. We also go over confidentiality. At the first meeting. The client knows what to expect.
> 
> The pastor is in complete control. Don't tell Mac a thing. He made me agree to this and he did not explain a thing. What are the ground rules, the process and the outcome he has in mind? He did not tell me. So he forces me to trust him.


The bolded are not traits of a man of god, neither is his lying, or believing you are a sinner and he is not, a true man of god understands we all are sinners, none of us are righteous.


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## Machiavelli

Thorburn said:


> Yea he had an agenda. He bought my WS's line. Poor me the victim. Mac alienated his wife (that is her new I was lonely speech she has been given people). Like in 1999 (same denomination) the pastor blamed me and they did not hold my WS accountable for a thing. She got off free and clear, it was all Mac's fault. Some churches are like this and if I even thought this guy was like that I would have never gone here. Some church leaders always blame the husband, always for everything that happens in a marriage. In all my years in ministry I have run into two. Most pastor don't see it this way.


The modern American church does not hold women to account for much of anything. Read this: Your Wife Had an Affair: It's Your Fault.

The above is an extreme but typical attitude, but these critters actually run a "ministry" with this concept as the cornerstone.


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## karole

Thorn - I don't know what else to say except, I will be praying for you.


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## BK23

Thorburn,

I am pretty concerned for you. Your decision making doesn't make sense from where I am standing, and, frankly, you sound like my bi-polar friend does during a "manic" episode. The terrible things your wife, inlaws, and this A-hole pastor have put you through would certainly drive me to abstraction, so there's no blame here, just concern. Maybe see your family practitioner for a little help coping with this? Focus on you, man, not all these wretched people trying to pull your strings.


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## Chris989

Being entirely blunt, there are some worrying signs Thorburn. Speaking in the 3rd person is a classic sign of problems and the revelations you have received could also be of concern.

I think you should see your family doctor before doing anything else. The sort of stress you are under - sustained, high level, over a long time, can have all sorts of effects.

You need to look after yourself.


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## LostViking

You are not going to like what I have to say. In fact it might anger you. 

I agree with the other posters Thorburn. 

You seem to be "off". 

As a professional in the field of mental health, you more than anyone should understand the value of outside opinions, and even though we are all laymen here, you need to take hold of and really listen to what we are saying to you. 

So all these things you have been doing on your own volition have been paying off for you have they? Have you stopped to think that your wife may be setting you up by giving you all this money? Many posters here tried to tell you that her family and the pastor were setting you up weeks ago. Sure enough, they were right. 

Do you actually think you are going to get the upper hand when you go in and tell your WW and this apostate pastor "your story"? Do think your wife is going to give a whit about what you have gone through? Do you actually think telling your life story to them is going to leave them on their knees debasing themselves in front of you, begging for forgiveness? Dont you see how delusional this is?

The decisions you are making are bad ones. The situations you are walking boldly into are potentially very, very bad situations. I see an obsessiveness in your behaviors that is very troubling. As a laymen I see cracks forming in your sanity, and I am frightened for you. 

Get some help Thorburn. Talk to someone in your field, a psychiatrist or psychologist, and tell them what you are planning to do. See what they think and ask them if you are making lucid, rational decisions.


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## Shaggy

Let me chime in too, you've started showing disturbing signs sir. You are proclaiming "see I ignored everyone's advice on doing X, therefor I know I'm going to be right when I do Z, an unrelated thing."

You are becoming overly focused on being right to a minister who is frankly irrelevant in the big picture.

You are also engaging in these side battles and discussions instead of the direct one of divorcing your WW and moving on.

Your posts have gone from introspective, to almost manic in their self assurance that you now see a truer truth and path.

These are all classic bad signs and I'm worried about you. You are behaving like someone about to break.

The more sure and fervent you are, the harder you are going to hit the ground down the road. You need to take a breather and regroup your emotional center and energy.


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## carolinadreams

None of these confrontations, will move you an inch closer to finalizing your divorce, creating a stable environmental for yourself and your sons, and allowing you to focus on your health, happiness, and well being.


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## badbane

2The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.
3I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.
4The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.
5The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
6In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.
7Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
8There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
9He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
10And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
11He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
12At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
13The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
14Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.
15Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
16He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.
17He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.
18They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the LORD was my stay.
19He brought me forth also into a large place; he delivered me, because he delighted in me.
20The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.
21For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
22For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.
23I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.
24Therefore hath the LORD recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight.
25With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright;
26With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
27For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.
28For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.
29For by thee I have run through a troop; and by my God have I leaped over a wall.
30As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
31For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
32It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect.
33He maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and setteth me upon my high places.
34He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.
35Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.
36Thou hast enlarged my steps under me, that my feet did not slip.
37I have pursued mine enemies, and overtaken them: neither did I turn again till they were consumed.
38I have wounded them that they were not able to rise: they are fallen under my feet.
39For thou hast girded me with strength unto the battle: thou hast subdued under me those that rose up against me.
40Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me.
41They cried, but there was none to save them: even unto the LORD, but he answered them not.
42Then did I beat them small as the dust before the wind: I did cast them out as the dirt in the streets.
43Thou hast delivered me from the strivings of the people; and thou hast made me the head of the heathen: a people whom I have not known shall serve me.
44As soon as they hear of me, they shall obey me: the strangers shall submit themselves unto me.
45The strangers shall fade away, and be afraid out of their close places.
46The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.
47It is God that avengeth me, and subdueth the people under me.
48He delivereth me from mine enemies: yea, thou liftest me up above those that rise up against me: thou hast delivered me from the violent man.
49Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and sing praises unto thy name.
50Great deliverance giveth he to his king; and sheweth mercy to his anointed, to David, and to his seed for evermore.

Psalms 18 Great chapter to read before confrontation.


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## Curse of Millhaven

First, I am glad that you have decided not to attend the wedding; I think that’s a good decision. Second, I would like to say I’m very sorry that you are going through all of this and that your already difficult situation continues to be exacerbated by outside influence and stress. Of course, external factors only influence us as much as we allow them to, but I understand that we’re not automatons and are susceptible to the influence of others. That said, as a mostly impartial observer here, in reading your posts as of late, it does seem that you are putting a lot of undue focus and attention on “non-key players” and your thought process does seem a bit scattershot. I myself do this when I’m under a lot of stress and overwhelmed; it’s how I procrastinate in dealing with particularly difficult situations. I don’t know that it is the same for you, but it does seem that you are focusing on your wife, her family, the unethical pastor, etc. as a way of avoiding the ultimate necessary conclusion of all of this nastiness…the dissolution of your 30+ year union. I do recognize the magnitude of this and just how traumatizing it must be. And you’ve had to deal with multiple betrayals...from your wife - who you’ve said was the love of your life, her family – who have been closer to you than your own blood relations, the pastor – who you trusted as a representative of your Christian faith. Not to mention financial issues, work problems, and looming divorce/legal battles/division of assets, etc. I’m overwhelmed just trying to_ imagine_ what it would be like to deal with all of this! The reality has to be devastating.

You have been under phenomenal stress and have had to deal with things that I can’t begin to fathom, not only in your marriage but also in your military career. Reading through what you have gone through and had to witness, I can’t begin to comprehend the cumulative emotional toll this has taken on you. You have my utmost respect in how you have coped with all of this and persevered. You are a very strong man, but we all need help in dealing with life’s traumas. As a therapist you know there is no shame in seeking guidance and support; I think at this juncture you could greatly benefit from a professional’s counsel. I have to ask…as a counselor, if you had a patient come to you with what you have gone through and they asked what they should do…what would you advise them?

I have to echo what everyone else has already said…I don’t think you should meet with the pastor and your wife. Ultimately, what purpose would this serve? He has already called you a liar and blamed you for her behavior (ridiculous!) and you know he has willingly been influenced by your wife’s (and possibly her family’s?) lies, manipulation, and agenda…why suffer this fool gladly? No good can come of this. I have had people I trusted willfully harm me, lie about me, and then blame me for their wrongdoings. It hurts beyond compare, truly burns to the core and I railed against them and fought back to no avail. Ultimately they did not change their behavior or opinion of me and all I did was give them what they sought…my pain, attention, and energy. It’s difficult but sometimes the best thing you can do is walk away and not give your power over to negative people.

You are a believer and I completely respect your Christian faith…so I encourage you to let this situation with the “pastor” go and “turn it over to God”. Ultimately he will be made to see the error of his ways, will he not? So do your part in filing a complaint with the church authorities for his horrible misconduct and breach of ethical practices and then never think of him again. He doesn’t deserve another moment of your time. 

I do think it’s portentous that the pastor chose your birthday for the “high noon” showdown. Maybe this is God’s way of challenging you…He tests those He loves, does He not? Sometimes it’s an open-book test, sometimes closed. I’m thinking this might be open-book. You have a choice on how you can spend the anniversary of your birth (arguably the most significant day in any being’s life)…you can continue to be ensnared by your wife and her web of deceit allowing her to consume more of your energy and spirit OR you can remove yourself from the miasma of this meeting and honor the day for what it is meant to be…a celebration of you. Spend time with your boys, see friends, treat yourself to something special…enjoy the day for the blessing it is. Honestly, haven’t you sacrificed enough of your days on the altar of your wife’s selfish sickness? Take this day off. Don’t cancel the meeting, just don’t show up. Let them lie in wait for an ambush that will never be launched. 

Sorry for the length of my reply (can’t seem to contain the verbal incontinence!) and if anything I have written could be misconstrued as disrespectful. All that I have written comes from a place of deep concern and empathy. I have nothing but respect and admiration for you, your faith, and your strength. I left the church long ago but am still a believer…I will pray for you and your sons. Be well.


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## Thorburn

OK. everyone. I am not nuts. Bi polar or whatever. I spent the day with Billy my special needs friend that I have taken care of since 1995. I pay his bills, got him a job at Hoss's back in 1995 and he lives in another town hours away. It can be a pain to pay his bills, etc. But it is something I have done since 1995. Don't ask me why, Just something I have done over the years. Met the guy in 95 and he hooked me. One year his social security was cancelled and I literally had to pay every thing out of pocket for him. A local congressman resolved it and I got reinbursed. 

I then had a list from my WS of things to do today. We are ending our antique business at the co-op and I picked up the big items today. Anyone wants to buy a Korean War Era coffin shipping crate? Then I spent time with my mother and oldest son. He decided to come home. We went to our youngest son's and spent time there. My WS had a list of things to bring from our home there. So I loaded up the truck today with tons of stuff.

I had a plan when I was going to meet with the pastor. It was pretty good

I felt like I needed to do it. I did everything the family asked me to do then they add that I have to meet with the pastor. 

I will not meet with the pastor.

I am done with my WS's family.

I talked to the pastor's District Superintendent (in his denomination it is like a bishop in the Methodist Church) and he told me that guy is arrogant. My oldest BIL said if I talked to the DS he will never speak to me again. Well, guess what? I spoke to the DS.

I am in the process of filing. I have most of the money thanks to my BILs praying for it. The rest should be in any day and it is money that is extra, nothing I expected. The attorney is sending me the contract, etc. Once he gets the first $1000.00 (I literally have it on my dresser in $100.00 bills) he will start the process. 

I will let the family who has no bal*s deal with their who*e sister. 

Why didn't my older BIL confront the pastor for his lies? He has no bal*s. None. He can't even contact his sister. He has not done so is over a year. 

The process for D has started.

I am done with the in laws. I wasted my time trying win them over only to have them turn on me when a pastor who my middle BIL does not know at all and my oldest BIL (who recommended him) met twice, lied about me and will not repent or apologize about his lies to me. He did to my BIL. But he won't to me who he offended.

My WS said I controlled her. Manipulated her. Abused her. My aging mother said I bent over back wards for her over the years. I am tired of her control, manipulation and abuse, as well as the in laws and the pastor's. 

They all controlled me too long.

I got my sons and I got money. I got the Lord. I spent time in the bible today as well. 

Pastors are not the head of the church. Christ is. I am following him. Not Jim Jones. 

My plan on tuesday is no longer important. It would have worked for it's intended purpose but is now history. It would had been sweet revenge but revenge is the Lord's not mine. I thought I might borrow a little revenge from the Lord but nope. 

See Tuesday is my B-day and I was going to have a celebration at the pastor's expense. But after today's events of having a great time and seeing that I have made it without the in laws (They have not spoken to me in days) I found out I don't need them. 

You all saw it, I did not. you told me, I did not listen.

But what have I loss? Time. I did not have the money for D till now so I was stuck for a time. 

During this time I got emotionally more stable. I got bal*s. I even joked with my boys today of them having a new mother. We talked about what kind of woman we want to marry. We all agreed not one like their mother. 

I came home and my bed is made. I have not had sheets on the beds for weeks. I washed them and they sat in a bag next to the bed, My WS made my bed for the first time in months. I suspect she thinks I will not D her. 

Last night before she went to bed I was having an attack. It is like a heart attack. Very painful. Not serious but I have passed out from the pain. I had an attack months ago and ended up in the E.R. I remember waking up in pain hoping my WS would respond like she normally did. She didn't. I finally woke her up. She said she heard me. I said I have to go to the E.R. can you take me? she said she was too tired. 

So last night she said if I need to go to the E.R. she would take me and to wake her up if I needed to go/ Like I want her to take me. I was scheduled for surgery to correct this back in September but I have blown it off. They keep calling me to schedule the surgery. The medicine I take for it takes about 15 minutes for it to work. Again it is not serious but god awful painful. 

I am cutting all ties. In laws and pastor. I am filing for D finally and I have wonderful peace. 

I even have Rudy our Golden Retriever and Ziggy our cat sleeping next to me on the bed. Rudy hates the cat, yet here he is sleeping next to her. It is a cute picture. I am sure when I fall asleep it will even be cuter. 

I am going to bed.

Had a great day with Billy, my mom and my two boys.

Don't worry about Mac. I got off track but am not nuts. 

Hel* I got Ziggy and Rudy here to vouch for me. Shhhh they are sleeping. My WS hates it when i allow Rudy to sleep with me. She says he needs to be caged. Will not let her control me or Rudy anymore. Rudy on the King size Tempurpedic. Don't even know he is here and the dog weighs over 100 pounds. 

Good night to all you.


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## LostViking

Thorburn its good to hear you have decided not to meet with the idiot pastor and your even more idiotic wife. 

Its even better to hear you are starting the divorce process. 

We like and respect you too much to let you go off and do something stupid. That is why we all came down on you a bit hard today. You do have friends here who honestly care about you.


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> Thorburn its good to hear you have decided not to meet with the idiot pastor and your even more idiotic wife.
> 
> Its even better to hear you are starting the divorce process.
> 
> We like and respect you too much to let you go off and do something stupid. That is why we all came down on you a bit hard today. You do have friends here who honestly care about you.


I don't mind the hardness at all. This old master sergeant put the boot on soldier's arses over the years when they acted like knuckleheads. In Iraq I put my assistant on extra duty for two weeks due to misconduct. The commander approved my decision. My assistant (Dave) was mad at me for doing this to him. What he did not know was my boss (a Colonel) and others wanted to take a stripe from him, reduce him from sergeant to specialist. Dave was and is a good kid (we are still in contact to this day), but he screwed up. There was no way I was going to let them take a stripe from this kid. I had just promoted him to sergeant and he earned it. But he screwed up so when I got wind of what my boss was going to do I immediately went to the commander and we imposed extra duty. My boss could not touch him (double jeopardy). My boss was pis*ed at me. I protected this kid. Dave figured out what I did for him after a friend explained to him what I did. His friend worked for the commander and knew that I save his butt. My boss, the Colonel got over it. 

So if I acted like a knucklehead, thanks for the kick in the arse.


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## karole

LostViking said:


> Thorburn its good to hear you have decided not to meet with the idiot pastor and your even more idiotic wife.
> 
> Its even better to hear you are starting the divorce process.
> 
> We like and respect you too much to let you go off and do something stupid. That is why we all came down on you a bit hard today. You do have friends here who honestly care about you.


I agree 100%!!! 

Also, I don't think I have ever said this in this thread, but I would also like to thank you for your service to our country.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Thanks TB, I hope I wasn't too much of a jerk. I just dislike seeing someone work so hard keep getting punched in the face. 

People always say when you get knocked down get up again.

True.

I always tell my kids sometimes you sidestep so, what knocked you down misses and you get a new perspective.

You just sidestepped, good job.


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## LostViking

Thorburn did all your years of military training instill in you a "dont back down" attitude to threats against you?

I wonder if that is why you tend to zero in on those who want to take you on, sometimes at the expense of your own well being?


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## Thorburn

I just sent this email to the family. Titled I Am Done.

B, first I love you. I really do. This may be my last time taking to you. Whether we talk in the future is up to you but if we do I will not put up with being controlled or manipulated. You told me to do things and I did. You told me to tell my WS my story and ask for forgiveness and that is the last thing I need to do. You wanted to see her reaction. Then you added more. Meet with the pastor. Well I am done. You keep adding more and more and more. If the meeting with the pastor did not go well you would have added more demands. You got mad at me and said if I go to the district you will never talk to me again. Well, guess what B boy, I went to the district and talked to Dr. M. I will not discuss what was spoken about but words like arrogance, controlling, etc were said and they did not come out of my mouth. Scripture was shared with me.
Here is my take on what was shared, this did not come from the DS but I found this online and it pretty much agrees with what the DS shared with me about pastoral authority.
What are the areas in which pastoral authority biblically functions: spiritual,
financial, governance, Word of God, teaching, preaching, rebuke, correction, exhortation, temporal, other? Based on what we have learned in the area of accountability, should the pastor have unquestionable authority in any of these areas? If so, which ones and why.
Answer comments:

· No, he should be subject to accountability in all areas.

Pastoral authority = the responsibility to make decisions affecting the local

church. Spiritual – teaching and preaching – it is not unquestionable authority (Heb. 13:7,

17; I Thess. 5:12). Financial – maintain integrity; (1) church administration; (2) –

business administration. He participates and is accountable to the whole but has one voice. 

As a facilitator, helps the process and participates, but not a dictator. (1 Tim. 3:3; 1 Pet.

5:2; 2 Cor. 4:12; 2 Cor. 8:18-22; 1 Tim. 4:4; Titus 1:7; 1 Cor. 9:18; Acts 11:29).

· Business Admin – he does not have the final say – 2 Cor. 8:16-24.; 9:4.

· Pastoral restraint in authority.

· Governance – oversee (1 Tim. 3:1; 1 Pet 5:15; Acts 20:28; Acts 6:4; 1 Tim. 5:17 –

rule well).

· Pastoral authority – 1 Peter 5:1-4 – he has the r to responsibility to rebuke. Gal

6;6 Titus 1:10-11; 1 TIM. 4;15; Actsw 2:29-30; Titus 1:9.

· A member should have the right to ask the Pastor to explain decisions.

· He does not have sovereign authority – not unquestionable - there must be a check

and balance.

· Must balance pastoral authority with individual priesthood with God. 1 Peter 5:1-5

– must not lord it over . . . 2 Cor. 1:24, but available to give spiritual guidance.

· Help people make spiritual decisions.

· No – Roms. 13:1, need checks and balances, lead by example; be free in Christ but

with boundary lines.

· “One of the greatest gifts I got from my congregation was NO trust; I had to earn

trust.” (2 Cor. 1:24).

· Pastoral authority should function in all areas, but in every area there are

biblical boundaries.

· To provide oversight (1 Peter 5:1-5), to be a watchman against sin and heresy, but

Christ is the final authority (Matt. 28;18; 2 Cor. 5:19), no unquestionable authority.

· Yes, but the Pastor’s authority does not supersede the elders or table of

organization (Prov 11:14).

· Acts 15 – Pastor can be challenged when he is off. The Word of God has final say.

2. Does the Pastor have a biblical right to decide personal issues for members of the congregation? What (if any) would be the parameters for this?

Answer: Unanimously, No.
He does not lord it over the people (1 Pet. 5;1-4), but he can give counsel when he

is invited. Member can choose pastor’s counsel or not based on believer-priesthood.

· Parameters – yes, if personal sin affects the Body (Mt. 18) in order to bring

resolution and accountability to the Body of Christ.

· No biblical right to decide personal issues for another person. It is their free

volition and we cannot determine that. 2 Tim. 4:2 – only preach and pray. Col. 3:23; Rom.

14:8.

· He does have the privilege of advising and counseling on personal issues when

invited.

· He does have the responsibility to make decisions that affect the Body; give counsel

and advice, but Roms. 14:4; 2 Cor. 13:10.

· Every believer is responsible for his own choices. He can provide Biblical counsel

and explore options with the believer.

· He should consider legal issues; he has a responsibility to instruct those that

oppose themselves – can only give Biblical counsel but not decide how to implement that.

· The Pastor is to be an example in leading through preaching, teaching, and

lifestyle. (2 Thes. 3:9; 2 Tim. 2:24-25).

· He is to point people to Christ and the WOG. He cannot make their decisions because

it takes away their rights as a believer-priest.

· Not a ruler but a guide. Believer makes up his or her own mind.

3. Is the teaching of a pastor to be treated with the same degree of respect as the teaching of the N.T. apostles? Is a pastor’s message to be treated as divinely inspired and therefore unquestionable and infallible?

Answers: Unanimously, No and No for both questions.
An Apostle had a special authority because he received divine revelation – 1Cor. 3:11? 

B. – A Pastor today is not to add or remove from canon of Scriptures; anointed message can be

infallible (2 Tim. 3:16), but the man of God is not.

1 Tim. 3; 2 Tim. 3:16 – inspired Rev. 1 Thes. 2:13; we have observation, interpretation

and application. Interpretation must be lined up with the Scripture in its proper setting.
Only the Word of God is divinely inspired.
No Apostles for today; we are not inspired, but anointed.
Acts 17 – even apostles were subject to scrutiny.
Same respect for God’s Word – apostles – some died in their presence; some were healed by

their shadow; their min. was NOT voluntary; Acts 17:11; Isa. 8:20; Paul – 7x – follow me as I

follow God. Response was purely voluntary. NO, it is not unquestionable and infallible. 

Not the same level as NT.
NOo but a Pastor preaches from the divinely inspired Word of God, which needs to be

respected; believers should study for themselves (Acts 17:11; 1 John 2:27); it is the Word of

God, not man (1 Thes. 2:13); we have to exercise faith; otherwise, we criticize the Pastor.
Pastor must rightly divide the Word of truth; it is NOT the same degree – we have

receivers and givers. It is through the anointing and Word of God, but it is not infallible.

Deut. 29:29b – balance of respect, which is different from unquestionable or infallible.
People should be taught to always test the message. If someone treated the Pastor’s message as divinely inspired but infallible it would be contrary to the Word of God.

5. Identify potential problems that might arise from the misapplication of pastoral
authority.

Answer comments:

People going through Pastor to Christ (2 Cor. 11:2-3)
People making Pastors icons?
Cultic behavior.
Pastors may use authority for personal advantage;
Ps. 116:8 – they become like the Pastor instead of Christ.
Instills pride in young leaders who would emulate and then they “rule” instead of serve. 

Begemoai(Heb. 13:7, 17, 24).
Who would emulate and try to rule instead of lead (2 Cor. 11:2-3) – issue of presentation of Christ to the believer. Pastor should not disciple person unto him but unto Christ. Manipulation of the people by Pastor; embezzlement; people will be hurt; Pastor could misrepresent God’s character and nature of grace; Pastor may use grace as a license to sin.
We must have proper Pastoral accountability.
Terrible testimony to the world – 1 Peter 5:3.,
When people’s vertical is replaced with another person’s authority;
Elders and pastor become liable when his authority supersedes a person’s own responsibility and brings financial devastation to the church. If practiced, pastor’s name can be used as an authority for misapplication. “Pastor said. . . “
Turn into a cult, shepherding, spiritual and financial mismanagement; undue influence; weak organizational structure; rob people from individual believer-priesthood; destroys lives; bullying, shunning, bondage (Gal. 2:4); not giving people freedom to walk in their call and gifts of the Holy Spirit; killing their walk with God (2 Cor. 6:3).
St. Ignatius (bad teaching) – bishops word is equal to God. If you do not obey, you are labeled evil. Anyone who does anything without bishop’s knowledge is of the devil.
People might not search the Scriptures or right divide the Word of God, thus they neglect their believer-priesthood; develops soul attachments; hinder their growth into maturity
(Eph. 4:13) –counter-productive to job as Pastors in equipping the church and robbing them of eternal rewards.
Financial manipulation; leading people in our agenda, not God’s; branding people as rebellious; meddling in private lives; using my authority to mark people (Mk 9:35) instead of restoring people.
Corrupts the authority of the Word of God; soul-power attachments; controlling people’s lives; violation of believer-priesthood; disrupts prayer life because they rely on the Pastor. In extreme cases a Pastor could take the place of God in a misguided persons life..
Control; manipulation; violation of trust; relationship with God becomes diverted so we do not hear God. Jn 8:54 –distorted honor.


B, you failed to confront your friend in his sin. He lied, is unrepentant and refuses to apologize to me. And I have asked him three times to apologize and he won't. You all jumped to the conclusion based upon an email that I lied. The light of this came out by middle BIL sending me a text by mistake. If Christ did not reveal this to me I would have been blindsided and not known about it. No one came to me to ask me. You all took this misguided bully's word. His response, Oh I forgot. No apology. In fact I have long text messages from this Jim Jones disciple (I refuse to drink the coll aid) following my confrontation to him about his lies, telling me to relinquish all control, basically saying that I am a pathological control freak. Really. Who is the pathological control freak? He tells me he will not counsel me unless I relinquish all control over the ground rules, the procedure or the outcome. What are they? He has not shared with me any of this. He expects me to show up on my birthday and submit to him. He sets the rules, procedures and outcomes and because he is God's appointed authority in this matter he sets the rules. He does not have to tell me because he is God's anointed and how dare I question his authority. He tells me to basically stop talking to people, basically stop talking to my advisors who he thinks are misguided. Look these people up online B. Here are my advisors, Focus on the Family, Dr. B (a christian psychiatrist who trains Focus on the family staff ), Dr. L and Associates, Dr. H (a Christian psychologist who has years of practice in dealing with sexual sins), And I could go on and on. They all got it. I hid nothing about my porn use. They all said my WS can change but won't, she will continue to have sex with men. They all said I did not cause this. I have been in counseling several times over the past four years. All my counselors told me the same thing, my porn use is not that severe, this did not cause my WS to do this and she will continue to have sex with men and it will get worse. They all said I am not to blame. The ones I have spoken to also told me the family will turn on me. I have been warned again and again about this by my many Christian friends and others that you (the family) will turn on me, it is all a matter of time. You all don't get it. I deal with Veterans every day who have triggers or flashbacks to their time in combat. I have shared with you that my WS lied and says she forgot and won't apologize I shared this with you over and over again. The pastor has the same spirit as my WS and when the pastor lied and then said he forgot and refuses to apologize this is a huge trigger for me. He did the same thing my WS has done to me over and over again. If you do not have empathy for me in this matter, if you do not have compassion for me in this matter, if you do not understand that the pastor did and continues to do the same thing my WS has done to me, apologize to others, yet he offended me, not you, lied and said he forgot, then you do not understand the pain and anguish that I have. You do not understand that this is a huge trigger and it caused a massive flashback. It shows that you do not have compassion nor understanding. If you did you would have confronted the Pastor and said, don't you understand what you just did to Mac? Apologize and apologize quickly. But no you believed his lie. When exposed you did not challenge him just like you and my middle BIL have not challenged my WS. You have no guts. None.

I have not shared with you or the family this. This I have shared. On February 13 2013 I have a recording of my WS having sex multiple times including in my WS words, oh you want it backdoor (anal sex) like last time. She talked to this guy who you can tell she barely knows, laying naked in my car after she had sex once and is getting ready to have sex again, telling him about her affair in 1999 like it was yesterday. I asked my WS this past summer to tell me about it and she said she told me everything. Yet here she is laying naked with a stranger telling him things she never shared with me about 1999. This is what I have not shared. I have other recordings. The 13th set me off and I confronted my WS about it. But I have throughout the past year have used other recorders. When my WS was at your brother house, watching it for him, I put a recorder in the house, she found it right away. What you and my WS don't know is that there was more then one recorder in the house and outside the house. I have placed recorders in her car over the last year and have not shared this with anyone. I was warned by my Christian friends not to share this with family because they will eventually turn on you. Keep these recordings to yourself. (my WS's middle sister) shared with me when she had clarity of mind the other week that when my WS was sharing with her that Willie (the OM from 2011) was compassionate, loving etc that she loved him. Middle SIL told me she confronted my WS and said, sure he was all these things to you because he wanted in your pants. Maybe SIL did confront my WS . I don't know. This is what I do know. I have hours of recordings of SIL and my WS talking in the car (hours worth). SIL and my WS mocking me. SIL and my WS laughing about her affair with Willie. SIL stating over and over again that she understands why my WS did it. And I could go on and on. I have proof that there were people at (her youngest brother) house when my WS watched it. I did not have just one recorder. I had several and my WS did not know nor knows about them. And I have hours of recordings of her trips to our home town and other places. 

I now have the money for the divorce. I have contacted my attorney and we are starting the procedure for Divorce. My plan was to serve her the papers on my birthday when I met with the pastor and to give him a copy of the recording from February the 13th, put my wedding ring on the table and walk out. It can't be done that quickly.

I refuse to meet with a Jim jones type pastor. I will not drink the cool aid.

Christ is head of the church. I have run to him.

Pastor J forgets. He forgets the words of Christ. Pastor J believes in a worldly view of pastoral authority and I will not submit to an unbiblical concept. I will follow Jesus' teaching on what it means to be a pastor. Since 1985 till last year, (this is the time I served in ministry, mostly part-time) when I gave up my ordination, this is the model I followed. And Jesus, who is head of the church is who I follow and I follow the true teachings of the Word of God, not some insecure, pathological control freak.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

But Jesus called them unto him - That is, he called all the apostles to him, and stated the principles on which they were to act.

The princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them - That is, over their subjects. "You know that such honors are customary among nations. The kings of the earth raise their favorites to posts of trust and power they give authority to some over others; but my kingdom is established in a different manner. All are to be on a level. The rich, the poor, the learned, the unlearned, the bond, the free, are to be equal. He will be the most distinguished that shows most humility, the deepest sense of his unworthiness, and the most earnest desire to promote the welfare of his brethren."

Gentiles - All who were not Jews - used here to denote the manner in which human governments are constituted.

Minister - A servant. The original word is deacon - a word meaning a servant of any kind; one especially who served at the table, and, in the New Testament, one who serves the church, Acts 6:1-4; 1 Timothy 3:8. Preachers of the gospel are called minister's because they are the servants of God and of the church 1 Corinthians 3:5; 1 Corinthians 4:1; 2 Corinthians 3:6; 2 Corinthians 6:4; Ephesians 4:12; an office, therefore, which forbids them to lord it over God's heritage, which is the very opposite of a station of superiority, and which demands the very lowest degree of humility.
B, this is what I believe will happen. You will all make up with my WS. my WS will watch younger BIL's house from time to time. She will not be confronted by you or the family. There will be no accountability from you or the family. You will talk about how bad and evil I was and how I was unrepentant, refused to accept responsibility for the failure of the marriage. You will go to ball games. And my WS will have you all believing that she changed. Mac is no longer in my life and it was all his fault and he made me do it. You will be fooled. my WS will continue to be a *****. She will continue to have unprotected sex with strange men. She may marry. And no one will tell her that she is committing adultery as Christ said. in Matthew 19 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." And you will give my WS a pass. She will continue having sex with men. She will lie to you and the family that she isn't and you will believe her. If she remarries she will continue her behavior. That is what all the experts, my advisors (that Pastor J basically says they do not know what they are talking about, but he does) say will happen. That my WS can change but won't and she will continue to have sex with other men no matter what, even if she remarries. 

Middle SIL asked me the other week if I looked at porn recently. I did not hesitate, I said yes. I have told you and middle BIL you can ask me anything and will tell you the truth. I have been porn free for a while. Last night I was tempted but went to bed and did not click on a porn site or look at porn. I have been upfront with you all. But a pastor that middle bil does not know and one who you do not know well can lie about me and you believe him and stab me in the back and then defend him is beyond me. I have confronted friends over the years on knuckelheaded things. Because I was a friend. If any of my friends were slandered or if I got an email from basically a stranger saying they lied, I would have first asked my friend about it, I would not have believed a stranger. This event shows your true colors. So go take care of my WS. Talk about the major leave team she loves. mock me and say how horrible I was and that she should have never married me or should have left me years ago.

Because I am done being abused, manipulated and controlled.

I am in Christ and will continue to follow him. I am looking for a good church. I will not follow deceived men. 

These are my conditions. Conditions that Pastor J says I have to reliquish. Well he is not the spiritual head of my house, I rebuke him in the name of Jesus. He is not married to my WS and can't tell me what to do, I rebuke him again in the name of Jesus, who was and is God, who came as a servant humbling himself and show us that to be leaders we must be servants, not dictators. 

My conditions for even considering staying with my WS and stopping Divorce proceedings:

1. That she repents.
2. Goes in for treatment at a facility I choose.
3. Renounces all ungodly friends and never has contact with them again.
4. matt 19: 8; leaves her father and mother (family) and cleave to me and does not put family over me like she has done the entire marriage and controlled me, abused me and manipulated me with this.
5. Gets rid of all her clothes and jewerly and dresses modestly from now on.
6. Comes clean with dates, names, places, phone numbers, how she hooked up with these people, emails, internet accounts, places, of every man and woman she has ever fooled around with. Tells me everything.
7. Gets rid of the **** mobile.
And more.

I am done being lied to. I am done being manipulated, abused and controlled.

You need to man up and follow what your mother charged you with and be the spiritual head of this family. I am done with this toxic family unless the Lord shows me otherwise. You folks do not have the guts to follow the commands of the Bible. You are cowards.

And while all this is going on my WS will continue to have unprotected sex and could get aides or killed by some nut case. You guys do not care. If you did you would not have me doing your bidding and you would have stepped in and confronted my WS. 

my WS is on the road to destruction. She might be with a man right now. You guys do not care. She could be in her car laying dead right now because she hooked up with a nut case. You don't care. When ever I tried to intervene I was told I am controlling, abusive and manipulative.

my WS has lived in a one sided open marriage since at least 1999 and you guys have given her a pass. Keep doing it. That is what Christ would do, right? my WS has not respected me since day one. She forced me to give up my calling to be a military chaplain in 1984. Threatened to leave me. That was my calling. I would be retired making $25,000 to $60,000 dollars a year. And I would not have gone to Iraq and I would be well into a second career. But in 1984, my WS killed me. Put a dress on me. She put on the pants just like her older sister Sue. She did not care about my calling. It ruined us financially. She killed my spirit in 1984 and a pastore backed her up. And I was not into porn. I had not looked at porn since 1977. It was after this I found porn. my WS killed me in 1984. I no longer cared. my WS controlled me, abused me and manipulated me from the very beginning of the marriage. Made me send the kids to Christian school, I did not want that, but she forced it. Forced me to leave the Presbyterian church. said she will no longer go. Made me give up my family, always made me to go to her family events, she controlled me, manipulated me and abused me the entire marriage. and I could go on and on. She brought cigarettes and booze into the house. She brought the word Fuc* into the house. And I let her because in 1984 she made me put a dress on and she put the pants on just like Her older sister and her husband (my oldest SIL who runs the family and my BIL has a grad degree and works cutting lumber in a saw mill and can't do or say a thing to his wife). In 1984 she killed Mac.


----------



## turnera

strugglinghusband said:


> The bolded are not traits of a man of god, neither is his lying, or believing you are a sinner and he is not, a true man of god understands we all are sinners, none of us are righteous.


 It's been my experience that just as many jerks end up in the profession as 'guided' people. Our pastor is great, funny, laid-back, rides a 4-wheeler, had a pet ferret, is probably gay, and yet she's an introvert and doesn't get involved in church activities. Our Youth Pastor is an ******* who loves the preschoolers and tells the high schoolers to shut up and all the kids older than 8 hate him. YMMV


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## LostViking

Wow.


----------



## aug

Quoting all the scriptures to Bob does not mean much. If Bob does not know the scriptures by his age, he wont accept it now, I would think. 

You told him when you are going to have Caroline served the divorce paper. He'll tell his sister for sure. Be prepared for attacks by Caroline and the rest of her family.

May I suggest that you keep further communications, written or verbal, brief? Do not telegraph what you're going to do. Do not give them materials to allow them to work (together) against you.

From here on, keep your cool. Protect yourself.

You may want to go to the Divorce section and see how other posters handle their communication with their stbx. There are a few helpful posters there.


----------



## turnera

WTH?!

Why on EARTH did you tell them all that?

Holy crap, dude. Expect a police officer at your door soon, for ADMITTING that you WIRETAPPED someone else's house. WTH?

You know, you SAY you are done with them, yet you go on a half-hour diatribe to them (I say 'them' because they are like a cult - when one gets, all get) spilling your guts, EXPLAINING yourself, ADMITTING all your faults, BOASTING that you are done...

Yeah, you are so done you can't stop your compulsion to keep butting your head against the wall to get their 'forgiveness' and 'understanding' and 'buy-in' to your viewpoint.

If you were really done, if you weren't so IN LOVE with this family that you doormat yourself just to get their love and approval, YOU WOULD NEVER HAVE SENT THE LETTER. You are a codependent and you need therapy.


----------



## Topical storm

Do you have the full amount for the divorce procedure or just the initial amount? If this gets back to your wife is she still going to give you the checks?

I guess you have to get this off your chest, but it seems like you shot your bullets a little too soon. Only thing you need to be concerned with is the checks and the divorce. Good luck.


----------



## aug

turnera said:


> WTH?!
> 
> Why on EARTH did you tell them all that?
> 
> Holy crap, dude. Expect a police officer at your door soon, for ADMITTING that you WIRETAPPED someone else's house. WTH?
> 
> You know, you SAY you are done with them, yet you go on a half-hour diatribe to them (I say 'them' because they are like a cult - when one gets, all get) spilling your guts, EXPLAINING yourself, ADMITTING all your faults, BOASTING that you are done...
> 
> Yeah, you are so done you can't stop your compulsion to keep butting your head against the wall to get their 'forgiveness' and 'understanding' and 'buy-in' to your viewpoint.
> 
> If you were really done, if you weren't so IN LOVE with this family that you doormat yourself just to get their love and approval, YOU WOULD NEVER HAVE SENT THE LETTER. You are a codependent and you need therapy.


Yes, he overdid it. I hope her lawyer doesn't use this email against him.

Thorburn, your weakness was so prominently displayed. You need to change quick. Like an instant 180. Try.

Talk to God (and TAM) when you need to --not her family or friends.


----------



## strugglinghusband

Thor also remove some of the names from the post, like the District Supervisor you spoke with, He didn't ask to be here on TAM.


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## Shaggy

I do think its good that the family finally got told he has hard proof of her cheating on Feb 13 th.


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## survivorwife

aug said:


> Yes, he overdid it. *I hope her lawyer doesn't use this email against him.*
> 
> Thorburn, your weakness was so prominently displayed. You need to change quick. Like an instant 180. Try.
> 
> Talk to God (and TAM) when you need to --not her family or friends.


Unfortunately, any lawyer would use something like this (written word/confession/statement of "facts") on behalf of their Client, so yes, her lawyer will use this against him.


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## turnera

Not only lawyers, but law enforcement.


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## Shaggy

Folks stop scaring thorburn.

Law enforcement doesn't have any interest in wasting their time chasing betrayed spouses that use vars to catch cheating spouses. Zero, zip, nada. They chase real serious crimes that the general public cares about. Not a guy catching his wife with an OM.

And as for her lawyer. What exactly is he going to do? If they make an issue of the recordings in the D, then they become part of the record along with the details of what's on them.

But more importantly where is the financial gain or damages to pursue? 

Now if he was selling the recordings or posting them on the Internet, that would be different, but he isn't.

OPs got enough going on without unneeded anxiety about stuff like this.


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## Chris989

Shaggy is, as always, spot on.

Lawyers have to be paid. Where is that money coming from? It costs a lot to trawl through emails from betrayed husbands for scanty evidence that could be denied at the drop of a hat.

I don't know which episode of CSI anyone saw that scenario on, but it doesn't happen.

Just to *read* it would cost upwards of $100. Then what is this amazing lawyer going to do? Ring the police? "Oh hi, this is Mr Fat Cat lawyer here I have a written admission of something that doesn't bother anyone and it happened in the middle of an intense, complicated and fractious family dispute. When can you arrest the guy? Hello? Hello?". That's another $50 for the phone call. 

In the meantime the hillbillies have just stood there showering the hot shot lawyer with $10 bills like a pole dancer on her lucky night with Russian Oligarchs having a "throwing money at dancers" night.

Get real and leave Thor alone. He's doing the best he can and he's doing a good job.


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## canttrustu

Feet on the ground Thorburn. Come on buddy, you've come a long way. Dont buckle now. I agree, a HARD 180. NOW. And I agree go back and remove some names. Not cool. Everything else I wouldnt worry about too much. 

Stop talking to her sorry a$$ family. How do you think she got so fvcked up???? She came from these crazy asses


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## survivorwife

Shaggy said:


> Folks stop scaring thorburn.
> 
> Law enforcement doesn't have any interest in wasting their time chasing betrayed spouses that use vars to catch cheating spouses. Zero, zip, nada. They chase real serious crimes that the general public cares about. Not a guy catching his wife with an OM.
> 
> And as for her lawyer. What exactly is he going to do? If they make an issue of the recordings in the D, then they become part of the record along with the details of what's on them.
> 
> But more importantly where is the financial gain or damages to pursue?
> 
> Now if he was selling the recordings or posting them on the Internet, that would be different, but he isn't.
> 
> OPs got enough going on without unneeded anxiety about stuff like this.


Actually, the recording was the least of my concerns. Thorburn need not worry about any "criminal liability" in that regard. You are correct. He is the spouse attempting to find out whether his W was being unfaithful.

The problem is the rest of the email. Too many words. Too much "written" insight into his thoughts. Too much "ammunition" for opposing counsel. Forget the VAR. How about the "porn" references, which would suggest that he was not the perfect husband and such information could be used to paint a different picture on behalf of the "long-suffering wife" who went out and "sought comfort elsewhere". (Playing "Devils Advocate" here - don't shoot the messenger).

You see, the long and short of it is this. The Court is only there to make an "equitable distribution of the marital property". That's it in a nutshell. While holding his silence and maintaining the "upper hand", he could have been in a position to perhaps get a better distribution, however, this email can be used to show a person that is judgmental, stern, self-righteous and difficult to live with (which may be the position the W will take). 6 of one, half a dozen of the other, but clearly he is no longer in a superior position, even with her frequent infidelities and him being faithful to her.

And, since I have grown to respect Thorburn highly and wish him all the best, I am now very worried for him in regards to how his D will play out.


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## Chris989

Is he in a "fault" state? If not it matters not one whit.


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## BK23

Thorburn.

You are on tilt. Don't contact these people again. You are not doing yourself any favors right now. Do you have someone you trust? Maybe before you do something related to your wife or family moving forward you run it by them first? Maybe even someone from this board. Please be careful, buddy.


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## DavidWYoung

Thorburn, Hello. I am very late in this post. I thought that you had fixed the problem.

You need to drop EVERYTHING and leave the country. I am not joking or trying to be cute, you really need to leave this toxic situation and heal yourself.

I did it in Thailand, no sex, no drinking just thinking about my life and were I wanted to be in five years.

My ex wife had as many lovers and one night stands as yours, so I know your pain BUT this is your life that GOD gave you, not her's.

Leave the place you are at, and go somewhere calm. Even if its just the newborn ward at a hospital to hear the soft cry's of a day old child. You need to escape the hell that you are in and free yourself of it.

I know where you are at in your head, but you MUST break free. What you are holding onto is just wrong. STOP IT! Just go, somewhere, anywere!

Keep us posted David from Germany


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## Sweet Tea

How are you doing Thorburn?


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## Thorburn

Sweet Tea said:


> How are you doing Thorburn?


OK. STXW, my oldest son and I worked around the house. My STXW did finishing touches on a table and posted it online to sell. It had a solid (very heavy) butcher block maple top that I had to reglue. I stained it with dark chestnut stain and then my STXW finished the base and put black shoe polish on it. Came out nice. Then today I bought a solid maple table after I dropped my son off at church. Brought it home, sanded it. I stained the top dark walnut and my STXW finished the legs. All it needs is a coat of poly. I think it was the fastest I ever refinished a table. Paid $30.00 for it and I am selling it for $450.00. It came out beautiful.

My son dug a hole 3 feet wide, 8 feet long and about a foot deep and we put the korean era coffin shipping crate in the hole and filled it with dirt for a huge planter along side the garage. Looks good,

Yesterday I put up a wooden fence in the back of the yard and my STXW put a bird bath, bench and a table along it. 

Yesterday we talked briefly. D came up and I said I am in the process of filing. She got upset and went in the house to her room. My son and I took the dog to a park. 

My STXW was crying a good part of the morning, this morning. Then came to me about getting the table. I got it picked up my son from church, sanded it, stained it and worked on the yard. The three of us worked hard as a team, it was just weird. I was thinking this will all be gone and I have an I don't care attitude. She joked a bit during the day, the first time in months. My son who never helps around the house was a huge help today and yesterday.

He came to me with a thing he wanted me to read in his bible. It is a study bible. And it was about not D your wife. I told him that it is too late. He said be patient dad. He has such a gentle spirit now. It is great not getting the F bombs that I was getting. He is like my right hand man. 

I talked to an attorney about suing the pastor. He said I have a solid case for defamation and libel. He said it will not cost me a thing and that it could cost the church upwards of $50,000.00 or more to defend and more if we win. I don't know what I want to do at this point. The pastor lied, sent an email to my BIL, apologized to my BIL, not me who he lied about. After three attempts at an apology the pastor has refused to apologize and has stated that he has a clear conscious. I talked to his district superintendent. I am just waiting a few more days to decide what to do. Some have said to let it go and others said the man is out of control and I need to do something to stop his behavior and that he may be hurting others and a lawsuit might do that. I know that if I had done this in my job I would be put on unpaid administrative leave and under the circumstances I would be fired after the investigation was done. I served in several churches over the years and know that this is a serious matter. As a clinical therapist it would just not be the lie it would be the email sent to an outsider that would do me in. I just have not decided what to do. Other then talking to the attorney I have not let the pastor rent anymore space in my head. 

My neighbor came over today and my STXW was talking about getting a hot tub, and stating that she wants me to plant apple trees along the fence like in our other home. I trained them to grow like grape vines along a fence. My STXW was talking to me about this yesterday. My neighbor and I hit it off from day one. His background in education is like mine, Theology, etc. He said he was excited when he first met me and wanted some help with some mental health issues and then the stuff with my STXW came up and we never really talked about his issues. He said, you move in and now you are going to leave due to a D. He said he was looking forward towards me helping him with stuff. I could but I don't know how long I will be here and don't want to start therapy with him and then let him hanging. His issues need longer term treatment, which I can do, but I don't want to start what I can't finish. His issues are easy for me to treat but I just need time. Anyway, when he was leaving he asked me, did you tell your wife about D. I said yes, we talked about it yesterday and she was crying this morning. He said why is she talking about all these plans for the house and why is she doing all this work, doesn't she know you are going to lose it all? He said, she is acting like you are not going to follow through with D. I said I know. I said I don't get it either. I said she gave me more money today. He said if it was me I would be hoarding money. I said I would be as well but I just don't get it either. She is acting like everything is going to work out between us. I know my oldest son is hoping for that but he also knows I am firm in following through with D.

So I had a great weekend. No in laws. They are mad at me and I am done with them. No pastor. Fired him. Not sure if he knows I will not be showing up on Tuesday or not. Of course he did not give me a time nor a location. Maybe he is planning on coming here. He is not welcomed here.

STXW gave me more money and is working her buns off refinishing tables (so am I), and actually started to talk more to me about normal stuff for the first time since D-day #1,000,000,000. 

She came to me and asked if she could sleep with me tonight. (I KNOW SO DON"T SAY IT) I said yes. She said her back is killing her and she said she does not sleep well as it is. I relented. The Tempurpedic bed is wonderfull and it is a king size one so I will not notice her in bed with me. We both worked hard the last two days, I can hardly move. When we finished today I could hardly walked into the house to wash up. I made dinner for everyone. Got the grill out yesterday and made hamburgers and hotdogs. My son wanted me to do that. I had to move a ton of hardwood flooring that I have in the garage that we got from a Rabbi's house to get to the grill. In addition to refinishing the tables with heavy solid maple tops, we moved several tons of dirt. She shoveled as much as my son and I did. My son and I put up the fence yesterday. It is a heavy duty solid wooden one. I just put it up along the back and it is a good 40 feet or more. I planned on putting a fence down the side of the yard as well that way we can let our dog run free but an unsure of what I will do. I have the sunroom to finish and have no desire to do that. I got barn beams and other wood from a barn I tore down ready to hang, etc it is about 70% finished and it was for my STXW. Really looks nice with all the old barn walls etc. but again, I have no desire to finish it. 

Funny about the sleeping arraignments. Ziggy the cat I got from a room mate last year and Rudy our Golden Retriever have been sleeping with me every night. They typically don't get along. Ziggy is really dog friendly but Rudy is so jealous he can't stand her. They sleep side by side next to me and Rudy does not mind a bit. at night it is all peaceful. my neighbor says it is the lion and lamb lying down together in the peaceful kingdom and he says I am the one who has brought peace to this house. I love my neighbor. He gets it. He says I am the one who turned my son around. His sales have been nothing for about two months. He typically makes about 9 K a month. january was great for him as he made over 9K but he has had no sales since, none. So the other day I saw him leaving for work and I went over and prayed for him. He thanked me. He came home late and said, hey Mac, I made a sale. I teared up and hugged him. He said, Mac you did it. I should play the lottery. 

So I had a good weekend. Just have to get through the night with the ***** sleeping next to me. I will be taking a sleeping pill, and will be sleeping with my blow up doll, Rudy and Ziggy in between us.


----------



## Kasler

Nice man


----------



## thatbpguy

After all you have been through...

I agree with the divorce. 

It's also nice to see your son doing so much better.


----------



## Thorburn

Here I am laying in bed typing waiting for my laundry to dry. Rudy is lying beside me and Ziggy came in walked over me and laid down next to Rudy and he just closed his eyes and let out a long sigh. LOL. The new nightly ritual. The Peaceful Kingdom in Mac's house. Normally Rudy would be chasing the cat out of the room if it was day time. And he did it at night until I started letting him sleep with me. Then the cat joined us and he did not make a big deal about it. Now I am waiting for our Himalayan Seal Point to join us. She is about 12 years old, a fairly small cat that sticks to herself. She comes to me from time to time but pretty much stays away from most of us.


----------



## aug

Thorburn said:


> STXW gave me more money and is working her buns off refinishing tables (so am I), and actually started to talk more to me about normal stuff for the first time *since D-day #1,000,000,000*.


lol


----------



## LostViking

"Blow up doll" huh?


Yes that describes your WW to a T.


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## arbitrator

*Stay the course, Thorburn! No deviation!*


----------



## karole

My vote is to sue the pastor. As my daddy says, it's time somebody brings him down a peg.


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## BK23

karole said:


> My vote is to sue the pastor. As my daddy says, it's time somebody brings him down a peg.


Libel is a tough case to make--and damages are often small--so it surprises me that a lawyer will take it on contingency. But if the lawyer will do it, why the heck not?! Worse that happens is you lose and nothing happens. Best case... your money problems should improve somewhat. 

A word of advice: talk to this lawyer, determine the timeline of your divorce and the statute of limitations for your action for defamation. Depending on your state, you may want to make sure the divorce is final before you obtain any kind of judgment--don't want to have to give half of it away to your WW.


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## Shaggy

I'd sue the pastor, because you've got him cold on violating ethics, and also because people like him are in a position to do so much damage to so many lives.


----------



## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> OK. everyone. I am not nuts. Bi polar or whatever. I spent the day with Billy my special needs friend that I have taken care of since 1995. I pay his bills, got him a job at Hoss's back in 1995 and he lives in another town hours away. It can be a pain to pay his bills, etc. But it is something I have done since 1995. Don't ask me why, Just something I have done over the years. Met the guy in 95 and he hooked me. One year his social security was cancelled and I literally had to pay every thing out of pocket for him. A local congressman resolved it and I got reinbursed.
> 
> I then had a list from my WS of things to do today. We are ending our antique business at the co-op and I picked up the big items today. Anyone wants to buy a Korean War Era coffin shipping crate? Then I spent time with my mother and oldest son. He decided to come home. We went to our youngest son's and spent time there. My WS had a list of things to bring from our home there. So I loaded up the truck today with tons of stuff.
> 
> I had a plan when I was going to meet with the pastor. It was pretty good
> 
> I felt like I needed to do it. I did everything the family asked me to do then they add that I have to meet with the pastor.
> 
> I will not meet with the pastor.
> 
> I am done with my WS's family.
> 
> I talked to the pastor's District Superintendent (in his denomination it is like a bishop in the Methodist Church) and he told me that guy is arrogant. My oldest BIL said if I talked to the DS he will never speak to me again. Well, guess what? I spoke to the DS.
> 
> I am in the process of filing. I have most of the money thanks to my BILs praying for it. The rest should be in any day and it is money that is extra, nothing I expected. The attorney is sending me the contract, etc. Once he gets the first $1000.00 (I literally have it on my dresser in $100.00 bills) he will start the process.
> 
> I will let the family who has no bal*s deal with their who*e sister.
> 
> Why didn't my older BIL confront the pastor for his lies? He has no bal*s. None. He can't even contact his sister. He has not done so is over a year.
> 
> The process for D has started.
> 
> I am done with the in laws. I wasted my time trying win them over only to have them turn on me when a pastor who my middle BIL does not know at all and my oldest BIL (who recommended him) met twice, lied about me and will not repent or apologize about his lies to me. He did to my BIL. But he won't to me who he offended.
> 
> My WS said I controlled her. Manipulated her. Abused her. My aging mother said I bent over back wards for her over the years. I am tired of her control, manipulation and abuse, as well as the in laws and the pastor's.
> 
> They all controlled me too long.
> 
> I got my sons and I got money. I got the Lord. I spent time in the bible today as well.
> 
> Pastors are not the head of the church. Christ is. I am following him. Not Jim Jones.
> 
> My plan on tuesday is no longer important. It would have worked for it's intended purpose but is now history. It would had been sweet revenge but revenge is the Lord's not mine. I thought I might borrow a little revenge from the Lord but nope.
> 
> See Tuesday is my B-day and I was going to have a celebration at the pastor's expense. But after today's events of having a great time and seeing that I have made it without the in laws (They have not spoken to me in days) I found out I don't need them.
> 
> You all saw it, I did not. you told me, I did not listen.
> 
> But what have I loss? Time. I did not have the money for D till now so I was stuck for a time.
> 
> During this time I got emotionally more stable. I got bal*s. I even joked with my boys today of them having a new mother. We talked about what kind of woman we want to marry. We all agreed not one like their mother.
> 
> I came home and my bed is made. I have not had sheets on the beds for weeks. I washed them and they sat in a bag next to the bed, My WS made my bed for the first time in months. I suspect she thinks I will not D her.
> 
> Last night before she went to bed I was having an attack. It is like a heart attack. Very painful. Not serious but I have passed out from the pain. I had an attack months ago and ended up in the E.R. I remember waking up in pain hoping my WS would respond like she normally did. She didn't. I finally woke her up. She said she heard me. I said I have to go to the E.R. can you take me? she said she was too tired.
> 
> So last night she said if I need to go to the E.R. she would take me and to wake her up if I needed to go/ Like I want her to take me. I was scheduled for surgery to correct this back in September but I have blown it off. They keep calling me to schedule the surgery. The medicine I take for it takes about 15 minutes for it to work. Again it is not serious but god awful painful.
> 
> I am cutting all ties. In laws and pastor. I am filing for D finally and I have wonderful peace.
> 
> I even have Rudy our Golden Retriever and Ziggy our cat sleeping next to me on the bed. Rudy hates the cat, yet here he is sleeping next to her. It is a cute picture. I am sure when I fall asleep it will even be cuter.
> 
> I am going to bed.
> 
> Had a great day with Billy, my mom and my two boys.
> 
> Don't worry about Mac. I got off track but am not nuts.
> 
> Hel* I got Ziggy and Rudy here to vouch for me. Shhhh they are sleeping. My WS hates it when i allow Rudy to sleep with me. She says he needs to be caged. Will not let her control me or Rudy anymore. Rudy on the King size Tempurpedic. Don't even know he is here and the dog weighs over 100 pounds.
> 
> Good night to all you.


Really glad you didn't meet with that fake pastor. So, wifey put sheets on your bed. Hmm, are you sure she wasn't in it while you we're out of town? Sorry but I do wonder.

Good to know you will soon have The Munsters off your case.


----------



## Thorburn

Ironic, I have not read your posts to see if anyone responded to suing the pastor and I was about to contact an attorney about this and thought, check the post. I literally had my coat on, a pen and paper in hand and was going to go out to my truck and give an attorney a call. I have decided if I can I will sue the pastor.


----------



## Louise7

Thorburn said:


> Ironic, I have not read your posts to see if anyone responded to suing the pastor and I was about to contact an attorney about this and thought, check the post. I literally had my coat on, a pen and paper in hand and was going to go out to my truck and give an attorney a call. I have decided if I can I will sue the pastor.


By all means, sue the pastor if the lawyer reckons it's a goer but pick your moment to do it. Would hate to think the timing was off and that witch you married would get her paws on it.

And what's this about sharing a bed with her??? noooo, don't do it please. She is playing you, might tell her lawyer that you slept with her so have obviously 'forgiven' her.

Leave her with the mattress and take the dog and the cat and any strangers you can round up and sleep somewhere else.


----------



## Thorburn

Spoke to one attorney. Thought he was thorough. He said it is not worth it. Defamation would apply if the family did not know about my issues. Calling me a liar is not that big of deal legally, he said it caused the family to withdraw their support. Where is the damage? He said the pastor did admit to it and stated that he would clear it up with the family and he did, though he did send me the text that he sent the family and he put a big spin on it. 

He said sending the email to the family violating confidentiallity is the big issue. But he said most attorneys would not touch this. Not enough money in it. He said say you win $3,000.00 and they will get 39 to 50 %. He said attorneys don't want to deal with this type of thing with so little return. 

He said I can pay out of pocket and he would represent me but would not on a continguency basis. 

He said there may be other attorneys out there who have a better way of approaching this and if they think they could get a bigger outcome financially they may take the case.

He did say if the pastor approached a third party who did not know my issues then it would be defamation and then he might considering taking the case.

I might contact one other attorney to get their take on it.

If I decide to sue I have about one year to do so.


----------



## turnera

There's no hurry to sue him. Wait until everything else is taken care of, ok? It will just muddy the waters.

Our pets are the same way - the 2 cats hiss at the 3 dogs by day. But at night, it's one big happy family (plus 2 humans) on the kingsize bed.


----------



## turnera

Based on what the lawyer said, the only way it would be worth it is to do a civil case to get him disbarred (whatever they call it in religion) or else to sue the BIG church for THEIR money. 

Focus on what's important.


----------



## karole

I would do it even if I only received $3,000 and had to pay every dime of it to the attorney. It's the principal. That so-called pastor deserves some sort of punishment for what he did to you Thornburn. If nothing else, just the headache of a lawsuit.


----------



## karole

Just had another thought - contact someone with the Christian Law Association - perhaps they could give you guidance. It never hurts to get a second opinion.


----------



## Acabado

Drop the Pastor issue. It's not worth.
It's a distraction.
Focus in you goals you already have a full plate.


----------



## Jasel

Thats what I was thinking. Forget about the pastor. Focus on getting the money and filing for divorce. You seem to have a habit of letting side issues distract you from what should be your top priorities.

And please do not share a bed with your wife.


----------



## Thorburn

I got a year to sue if I want. Like I tell my Veterans in counseling, who are you allowing to rent space in your head?

Right now it is a distraction. Called an attorney got good advice from one and he is a high priced Philadelphia attorney who is use to going after millions. 

If I am bored here at work I will call another but I am not lettting mister I am god's annoited one rent space. My oldest son said he talked to the pastor on the phone some time ago and he said the pastor did not care to listen to him at all and told my son he knows how to handle me. My son said I really did not like him.

My son is so sweet now. He called me and asked me a ton of questions and said he want to go to a park when Iget home. He said he cancelled his Dr's appointment for tomorrow so I would not have to drive him to his brother's house tonight and then return tomorrow and pick him up. It is like a 4 hour round trip. I told him I did not mind. He said he is ok with it. 

He said mom was home most of the day laying on my bed, lol, my son is calling the temputpedic my bed. When she slept with me last night she brought in this huge cover and slepted in it like a cocoon on top of my covers and her feet were sticking out the bottom. LOL, she can't stand that. Her covers have to be tight and tucked in at the bottom of the bed. I always kicked them off, I have to have my feet free. She looked horrible this morning. She told my son she does not want a D.


----------



## turnera

T, don't let that sway you. She needs a LOT of mental help before she'd be marriage material again, and she won't GET that help if she gets to stay there with you.


----------



## BobSimmons

Has he divorced his wife yet?


----------



## Thorburn

BobSimmons said:


> Has he divorced his wife yet?


Not yet. Got the money. Now I am waiting for the paperwork from the attorney. He mailed it out to my work location.


----------



## Thorburn

I got an email at work today. It was from a friend who knows me and my STXW. We went to Army Officer basic together in 1985. Yes this old Master Sergeant was an Officer for almost 8 years. Long story of how my commission was taken away from me. The Army three times offered to make me a Captain after this. Once a general from the Pentagon called me and said, Mac, we know what happened and we are offering you a position as Captain if you go to Aberdeen Proving Grounds for a three year assignment. I was not interested at the time. 

My friend and I almost got into some serious trouble when we were at Officer Basic. We were at Ft. Monmouth N.J. We tried to steal a yacht. It is a very long story of twelve stupid 2nd Lieutenants that got very lucky that day. 

Now he is a Lieutenant Colonel and we were in Iraq at the same time. We stayed connected over the years since 1985 and our paths crossed many times. He needed help from me years ago in the 90's and I saved his Army career and then again in 2006. He was facing some serious charges when he came back from his first tour from Iraq. Two of my bosses (both Colonels) had it in for him. I remember an Army attorney calling me at work at the VA wanting to talk about a serious matter. They were going to put the hammer down on my friend. I said, you guys can't touch him. The attorney was taken aback (I liked him and knew him for many years). He asked why. I said I won't say. He said that the investigation has to go forward. I said go ahead with the investigation I can't stop it but you are going to find out that you are stepping into a land mine. I said right now I am a civilian but this weekend I will be in uniform and you guys are going to find out that we sergeants run the Army and I said I will put an end to this. I remember him saying what do you have in mind? I said wait and see. This attorney was the lead attorney for the Division a sharp guy and I would consider him a friend. He used me over the years as a consultant for churches in the Philly area for my "theological expertise" and he paid me well. We served on many tours of duty in Germany (three times) and other places and we literally worked side by side, his desk was always next to mine. That next weekend I was in uniform and one of the Colonels who was after my friend "came for a visit". He asked me to go into an empty office slammed the door and read me the riot act and demanded I tell him everything I know about my friend (the colonel did not know our history). I stood at attention and said, sir, I can't. He started yelling at me, I said, sir i can't. He pointed his finger in my face and said you tell me now sergeant. I snapped. I put my finger in his chest and went right up to his face and said you dirty F***ing SOB. You want to know what I know? I laid into that Colonel with a story about him. He turned white as a ghost. I said go ahead with your little investigation, fry my friend. But before you do let's pay a visit upstairs to the general and I will tell him the same story I told you. The Colonel slumped down into a chair looking pale. I said you want to ruin a hero because he screwed up and his screw up hurt no one. No one got killed, hurt or messed up. I said I knew him since 1985 and you want to ruin him for what? Being stupid. The Colonel said, "Mac, let's keep this between you and me, OK?" I said, drop the charges. They did. My friend is now in the Colonel's position. Sweet justice. 

Anyway the email he sent me today was

I sent an angel to look over you at night. The angel came back a minute later and I asked it why. It told me Angels don't watch other angels.

He is a good friend. Put a smile on my face today I told him that and he replied.

Good

I should have written, "are you gay or what?"


----------



## Thorburn

Got a text from the pastor. "I have not heard from you about tomorrow night".

Crickets. Do I hear crickets.


----------



## turnera

Ass. Can't even ASK you. Has to reprimand you.

"Sorry, I've been busy. Preparing an affidavit to send to your superior, Reverend AAA, about your unethical behavior. Haven't had time to let you know I wouldn't waste a plugged nickel getting to your office."


----------



## thatbpguy

Thorburn said:


> He said sending the email to the family violating confidentiallity is the big issue. But he said most attorneys would not touch this. Not enough money in it. He said say you win $3,000.00 and they will get 39 to 50 %. He said attorneys don't want to deal with this type of thing with so little return.


Take him to small claims court. Ask the attorney for an hour of paid time to help you prepare.


----------



## the guy

T-
Next time don't use the words "I can't" try "I won't"


Its hard to find that kind of honor among friends


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Ass. Can't even ASK you. Has to reprimand you.
> 
> "Sorry, I've been busy. Preparing an affidavit to send to your superior, Reverend AAA, about your unethical behavior. Haven't had time to let you know I wouldn't waste a plugged nickel getting to your office."


LOL. I am going to bed. Going to Red Lobster with my son tomorrow to celebrate my B-day.

Clean sheets on the bed. It was made when I came home. No STXW in bed tonight. Just Rudy and Ziggy. The peaceful kingdom.


----------



## Kasler

Thorburn said:


> LOL. I am going to bed. Going to Red Lobster with my son tomorrow to celebrate my B-day.
> 
> Clean sheets on the bed. It was made when I came home. No STXW in bed tonight. Just Rudy and Ziggy. The peaceful kingdom.


Good, enjoy the dinner. And to the Loser, wait doucheba- I mean pastor, just ignore any and all emails and calls. 

Being completely oblivious to his petty bullsh!t is better than as you put it, letting him rent space in your head or rent time spent from you responding to him.


----------



## Sweet Tea

I'm glad things are going better for you Thorburn. Happy Birthday and I hope you have a great day!!!


----------



## karole

Happy birthday!!!!


----------



## Acabado

Happy birthday!


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## turnera

Happy birthday!


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## vi_bride04

Happy Birthday! Spend today's effort in whatever you do on YOU. Celebrate you. Do what you want. TREAT YO' SELF!


----------



## Thorburn

Ironic. I checked our home phone records. I needed a number. My STXW does not have access to our home account, email, phone etc. She does not know I do. Well I noticed this phone number which did not make sense. Don't ask me why but I thought I needed to check our insurance information all of the sudden. I have access to my STXW's account (she does not). 

This is strange. I have had no thought of doing any more investigation. None. 

Well I looked up the phone number. It is listed as being near a town where my STXW went for counseling. The name listed with the phone number did not register at first. Then it did. It was one of our neighbor kids. He went to school with my boys. Then I looked at our insurance infromation. My STXW told me that she was going for counseling most of last year up to and including September. I believed her. She would tell me when she went. It was almost weekly. 

No. From December 1st 2012 till June 8 she went 8 times. 8!!!!. Once in June, once in May. Not all the times she said she was going. Not in July, August and September like she told me. 

I am not getting upset about this nor will I confront my STXW. This may all be coincidental but that kid lives near where she went for counseling and she was not going for counseling.


----------



## Machiavelli

She needed those hours to get her teaching certificate for SexEd.


----------



## LostViking

I'd let it go Thorburn.

What will it prove? That she is even more of a serial cheat than you thought she was? What difference does it make if she had had five sex partners or fifty? 

All this should do is cement in your mind that your wife manipulated and played on your trusting nature for years. All it should do is serve to reinforce in your mind that divorcing this woman and eradicating her from your life should be your primary objective. 

Again, do not get sidetracked by an issue that will only lead you down a dark road that you know will only end in more pain for you. There is no positive outcome to pursuing it. 

Get the divorce going, end the marriage as quickly as can be arranged and get busy living your life for you.


----------



## turnera

Besides, if you bring it up, it may get back to the kids. And NO kids wants to hear about yet one more friend his mom has screwed.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Besides, if you bring it up, it may get back to the kids. And NO kids wants to hear about yet one more friend his mom has screwed.


Not even discussing it. Somehow I feel detached from all this emotionally. I don't have a thought to get angry about it. My STXW is so out of control it is unbelievable. She was blaming me for everything. 

The pastor text me, "since I have not heard from you about tonight, I have made other plans".

Should I check to see if my STXW is home? Maybe the two of them are hooking up tonight.


----------



## MattMatt

Thorburn said:


> LOL. I am going to bed. Going to Red Lobster with my son tomorrow to celebrate my B-day.
> 
> Clean sheets on the bed. It was made when I came home. No STXW in bed tonight. Just Rudy and Ziggy. The peaceful kingdom.


Happy Birthday!:smthumbup:


----------



## LostViking

Thorburn said:


> Not even discussing it. Somehow I feel detached from all this emotionally. I don't have a thought to get angry about it. My STXW is so out of control it is unbelievable. She was blaming me for everything.
> 
> The pastor text me, "since I have not heard from you about tonight, I have made other plans".
> 
> Should I check to see if my STXW is home? Maybe the two of them are hooking up tonight.


I would not be surprised if that was the case. If your wife goes to see him alone and sees him as an ally in her war against you, I would not put it past her to offer him her services.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Just enjoy your Bday with your boy and enjoy Red Lobster tonight!


----------



## Thorburn

happyman64 said:


> Just enjoy your Bday with your boy and enjoy Red Lobster tonight!


We had a great time. We called our youngest son. It was a great b-day.

Talked to my old friend an E-7 Sergeant First Class who was my assistant at Division, for several hours. He was my boss for years when he was a Major then lost his commission and became my assistant. He said he remembers me telling him not to go to school for another position and he was not sure if he should trust me, he was a staff sergeant at the time. I told him trust me I will take care of you. He turned in his orders for school, I brought him on board as my assistant and promoted him. We have been great friends ever since. He retired from the Army in 2009 when I was in Iraq.


----------



## Thorburn

I have the money in my account. Just waiting for the attorney to send me the paperwork. Called him yesterday and he was in court. Missed his call later in the day as I had three group sessions and some individual ones. Today I have tons of notes to get done. But I am soon going to be officially filing.


----------



## just got it 55

What a long haul it's been 
I hope you get the closure you need
Stay well Thorn


----------



## LostViking

Eyes on the prize Thorburn.


----------



## Thorburn

Early last evening I asked my STBXW to talk. She had just woken up from a nap. She was called in to work to fill in for an ill employee (I don't know if she went to work or if it was an excuse). She said she just woke up and will talk later. Then she told me she is sick. I can tell that she is coming down with somehthing. Well I took my son to church and she went out for groceries. When I came home we had a short talk. I asked her what her thoughts are on D. She said she has not thought about it. I was calm. i said over the last two months you asked when I would be filing and who my attorney is. I said you know I am filing and I would like to discuss your thought on terms of D. I said we can go the short easy route or it can get real nasty and I would rather go the easy way. She mentioned the pastor. I said the man is evil, a liar and will not apologize. I said he is a control freak wants me to submit to him and relinguish all control to him. She said, Mac, you told me he was a nice man and you liked him and I found him and his wife to be that way. I said yes he was until he lied, sent an email to your brother which is a serious breach of confidentiality. I said if he would had simply said I am sorry and not told me to submit to him I would have a positive opinion of him. But he revealed his true nature. I said I talked to his disctrict superintendent and he said this guy is arrogant and conceded. I said I would have been fired from my job for doing this. My STXW said the pastor told her that there is hope for our marriage and prayed for us. I said really. I said we don't talk. She said well we don't do anything to improve the marriage, you don't do anything with me. I said you were mad at me for over a month, lied and lied and lied and I said even two weeks ago you lied to me. So you want me to do things with you? I said I want a D. I have friends that have women thatt want to date me and I won't until I am D, I said I want to date, have fun, meet new women and won't until we are D. I said I want a nice woman in my life and can't until we are D. I was shocked. Really shocked. She has no plan, none. She is thinking that I am not going to D her. 

I said you have had months and years to confess all your wrong doings. I said since February 13th this is what you have told me. I did not have sex with a guy. There was no guy in the car. The recording you have is just music not me having sex, I have not cheated on you. I went through the list of lies over the last two months. I told her, you told other people what you have done, apolgized to others but not to me. You have not said you are sorry. I said all I have from you are lies, denial and I think you are still hooking up with men. 

I said I have been home almost every day for the past two months. We were home alone most of last week and you have not said a word to me. I said I asked to talk to you and you do not say much or nothing back to me. I said you have had one opportunity after another. I said you have an opportunity now. I have told you several times to tell me what happened, to apologize, etc and you don't. I said I know what this is about. Your counselor last year told you (not sure if she did or didn't) not to tell me anything about your A's. And that is what some of your friends have told you, don't tell Mac a thing. I said this is what you have done since at least 1999. You can tell a guy that you are laying with naked in our car having sex once and then getting ready to have anal sex all about your A in 1999 like it was yesterday. I said I have asked you about 1999 in fact we talked about it in the summer of 2012 and you told me you have told me everything and that it was so long ago that you forgot most of it. Then two months ago you are telling some young dude all about it.

I said you know what I have repeatedly asked for and all I have gotten are lies and you are thinking I will not D you? I said the pastor told me to write you the letter, D you and follow through. I said he has been texting me even today (yesterday) he sent me a text and he has not told me that he has changed his mind on D. I said you should call him and confront him about it and have him send me a text. I will ignore whatever he says but at least I will read it. I said he has not said anything different about D to me.

Anyway this was very upsetting, nothing from her, not even an I am sorry. She is acting like things are going to be normal. It is strange. I am telling you all she is acting like things will go back to normal with us. She is telling my son she does not want a D. She told me she is praying for a miracle. She is resting on the hope of what the pastor said that the marriage can be saved. But refuses to talk to me or apologize.

I called a friend. He is the one who gave us $500.00 weeks ago. I worked with him for years at another hospital. I was the administrator and he is a Vietnam Vet, a Rn and MSW. He always called me Uncle Mac. I saved his youngest son's Army career several years ago. My friend came to me embarassed. He said Uncle Mac I need to talk to you. He said this is really embarrassing. My son is in trouble with the Army and I think you mihght be able to help. His son got involved with a girl went AWOL and did some other stupid things and was facing courts marital. I told my friend to drive to Ft. Bragg ASAP and talk to the commander. He went the next day. I told him what to say to the commander. I said once the commander meets you he will know what a great father you are and your concern for your son. I told him not to make any excuses for his son's actions but tell the story of your life with your son, how you raised him, etc and I said I suspect the commander might be lenient on your son and just maybe drop all charges. The commander dropped all charges and his son is still in the Army doing great. Well my friend was an addict years ago. He has been sharing with me about addict behavior and he said to me last night about addict behavior and he said my STBXW is in denial and is still acting out. He talked to me for a long time. Got me grounded again. He said Uncle Mac, I thought there was some hope weeks ago but there isn't. D her. She needs to face the reality of her addiction and you are still enabling her by dragging out the D. I told him it was not my choice, I had no money for it. He said you got the money do it as soon as you can. In her addictive state she is not taking ownership of any of her actions and does not have a plan. He said until she faces the harsh reality of her addiction she will continue this behavior. He said she is not thinking rationally, she is thinking like an addict. Like I said we talked a long time and he shared with me a lot about addiction. I use to do D & A counseling and know this stuff but this is so close I needed to be reminded again. He really nailed the addiction thing and behaviors and what to expect if I continue to allow her to live with me under these conditions. I told him that I did not have the money till last week and I am working with an attorney and the paperwork is getting started. He said Uncle Mac I normally would not say this but you need to let her go and D her and he said it sounds like that is where you are at.

The thing he did for me last night was to show me that my STXW's reactions to me is typical addict behavior. The attitude of there is nothing wrong, the "hey I am sitting here watching a ball game on t.v." while the world around them is crashing down, the confused look on her face when I mention D, like why are you D me? What did I do? It is not rational and I am thinking rationally. I am dealing with an person with a severe addiction and I am expecting her to act and talk and respond normally and she can't. Talking to my friend last night help me get through my confusion. When I talked with her it was like she was there but wasn't. She is not getting it at all. I can't be any plainer, telling her I have started the process for D and she comes back and says "the pastor says the marriage can be saved". It is like she is an empty shell with no thought of what she has done nor what she is going to do. She is just a lost empty soul. I have dealt with many addicts in the 90's, hundreds, and I have seen this from time to time. But most of the addicts I dealt with came into our program desparate for help. Some were at the end of their rope and some at the end of their lives, some died while in our program due to years of abuse to their bodies. 

So I am compassionate to a degree and have pity for her but that is all I have. I had made a decision weeks ago to file for D and have not changed my mind.

This is all hitting me hard. I transferred most of the money I got over to my account this morning. I have to put the $1,000.00 cash I have hidden away into my bank account. It was something to see the money sitting there in my account knowing what it is for. 

She told me last night that she has repented. I calmly said, really, I have not seen it. I said normally when people repent they apologize to those they have offended and I am still getting lies. I said I guess since you have repented you have finally called our youngest son and your brothers? I said I guess you have apologized to me.


----------



## turnera

Wow. I'm glad you got to do this. 

But it's over now, ok?

You have to grieve that you will never get what you want from her. Grieve and then move on. 

Get divorced and go find a woman who deserves you (but not for a while, ok?).


----------



## LostViking

I read through your other posts Thorburn and I must say that posters have been telling you for a long time that your WW is an addict. It is funny that this is just now dawning on you. 

But I am glad you are detaching finally. You said your peace to her, Now let it go. Quit talking to her, get the D filed and have her served. 

Take the reigns and go forward with the kind of divorce you want. She does not seem to be inclined to fight you. Use her weakness to your advantage.


----------



## ScubaSteve61

LostViking said:


> I read through your other posts Thorburn and I must say that posters have been telling you for a long time that your WW is an addict. It is funny that this is just now dawning on you.
> 
> But I am glad you are detaching finally. You said your peace to her, Now let it go. Quit talking to her, get the D filed and have her served.
> 
> Take the reigns and go forward with the kind of divorce you want. She does not seem to be inclined to fight you. Use her weakness to your advantage.


I really wouldn't say that its just now dawning on him. I would say that intellectually he has known it for ages. The heart, however, wants to think otherwise. 

That's just my take on the matter though.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Wow. I'm glad you got to do this.
> 
> But it's over now, ok?
> 
> You have to grieve that you will never get what you want from her. Grieve and then move on.
> 
> Get divorced and go find a woman who deserves you (but not for a while, ok?).


Right on spot. I am grieving. I am not backing down but it sucks. 

This is the woman I had committed over 30 years of my life. Raised two men. The boys love me more now then ever. I have great friends. I have loved her with everything I had. I am crying right now. I have not been perfect but I was a good husband. Went to war. It paid for my son's education, i was able to pay cash for him to go to school due to being called to Active Duty and having extra money when I was in Iraq. he has a great job and my STXW did not want him to do it she thought he would not follow through with his schooling, I knew he would and he was an honor's student and ended up in a great field, a design engineer. 

i faced death every day in Iraq, for what? I thought she was there for me. I was there for her. I got rocky moutain spotted fever in 2010 and what did she do? Hooked up that very night as I laid sick in bed, because the dude wrote on her facebook page, a dude she only knew on FB for three days, he wrote, "you are pretty" at 11 P.M. on my b-day as I laid sick in bed. It is all it took. Then more A's. And I could go on and on. In 2009 when I came back from Iraq my STXW had fragile bones and broke 7 ribs due to coughing and ended up in the hospital for a week. I was the only one who visited her every day, not even our sons visited her. The doctor accused me of beating her up due to just coming home from combat. I never laid a hand on her. Never threatend to do so. Her other doctor got mad when he heard this and had a talk with the other doctor. Her main doctor knew me for years and knew my STXW's condition.

My STXW broke up a friendship with my one BIL who died last year. We only spoke a few times since 2008 and he got sick with cancer after I came home from Iraq and my STXW did not want me to speak to him at all and we were best friends. He died last year and I heard he cried about me not talking to him, he said I was his best friend. He told the family that my STXW was cheating on me from day one when I left for Iraq and that is why she did not want him to mow the yard that day, he said he thinks she had a man in the house. 

So yes i am grieving. But I have had enough time to process this and it is not as hard as it could be.

I am not worried about my future. Not sure what I will do. I might quit my job. I will get out of paying alimoney. I am 50% nuts with PTSD and I will play that card. The VA rated me 50% disabled from PTSD and with my other injuries from Iraq I have an over all rating of 60% and I could get 100% if I wanted it. i can't imagine a judge ruling that I quit my job to get out of alimoney. Vets with PTSD get fired and/or quit their jobs everyday. I know how to play that card. I counsel these guys every day. If I have to during the D proceedings I will pis* on the judge, I have had combat Vets do this (seriously). I am a few years away from getting a government pension. If I quit I can get rehired, heck they hire disable war Vets all the time and in some places it is mandated. I can pick up where I left off and get my pension down the road and my STXW will not be entitle to a penny. I can get my liscense, the VA will pay for it and pay me while I am going to school and I can make between $50 to over $100.00 an hour doing what I love, counseling. I can do this all after the D and she will not be able to do a thing. I am nuts the VA says I am. I can move back home with my mother. The family told me if I do this they will give me the house. 

I will not support a Whor*. 

Just venting. I have no plans at this point on what I will realy do.

While I was writing this my STXW called me on my cell phone. In the last two months she has only called me a few times. She asked me to pick up a table and chairs in the South part of the city and an antique wash stand in the North West part of the city after work today. Traffick will be a pain. She got a good deal on them. Even as of last night with the talk of D she gave me one more check.

I don't get it. I said it before and my neighbor mentioned it, if this was me I would be hoarding as much money as possible. After I confronted her about the money in Mid March and showed her family the bank account and that she was lying about the money she has been giving me money left and right.

now she is buying tables and stuff to refinish and we are doing very well doing this. We work together on these things. Don't talk much but we do work together refinishing furniture and reselling it and it is very profitable. 

I seriously believe that she thinks that I am not going to D her. 

After I dropped my son off from church I stopped in at a bar to have a beer or two. Something I have not done in a long time. There was a lady across the bar giving me eyes. She was atttractive and around my age. I just watch the ball game. A little later a guy came in and sat beside her, might have been her husband, not sure. I knew my STXW would be home from the grocery store so I went home and had the above conversation. I miss having a woman around, if you know what I mean. No I am not going there but I do miss it.


----------



## lordmayhem

Just wondering.



Thorburn said:


> The doctor accused me of beating her up due to just coming home from combat. I never laid a hand on her. Never threatend to do so. Her other doctor got mad when he heard this and had a talk with the other doctor. Her main doctor knew me for years and knew my STXW's condition.


Did that doctor notify the police? School administrators, teachers, counselors, nurses, doctors, etc, are mandated by law to notify local law enforcement if they suspect abuse or assault.



Thorburn said:


> I am 50% nuts with PTSD and I will play that card. The VA rated me 50% disabled from PTSD and with my other injuries from Iraq I have an over all rating of 60% and I could get 100% if I wanted it. i can't imagine a judge ruling that I quit my job to get out of alimoney. Vets with PTSD get fired and/or quit their jobs everyday. I know how to play that card. I counsel these guys every day. If I have to during the D proceedings I will pis* on the judge, I have had combat Vets do this (seriously). I am a few years away from getting a government pension. If I quit I can get rehired, heck they hire disable war Vets all the time and in some places it is mandated. I can pick up where I left off and get my pension down the road and my STXW will not be entitle to a penny. I can get my liscense, the VA will pay for it and pay me while I am going to school and I can make between $50 to over $100.00 an hour doing what I love, counseling. I can do this all after the D and she will not be able to do a thing. I am nuts the VA says I am. I can move back home with my mother. The family told me if I do this they will give me the house.


Can you clarify something? Are your retired from the military or not? I'm not sure if you are guard or reserve? In any case, if you are not yet retired, how did you get a VA disability rating already? I thought guard and/or reserve had to serve until they were 60 or something like that. I know us active duty folks don't get our disability rating until just before or after retirement because the medical records have to be sent to the VA for review. I know that the VA is now averaging a year and a half processing disability claims, and due to the war, is very backlogged. 

I agree, VA disability pay is completely untouchable. I'm personally rated at 40%, so I'm not at the magic number of 50% to get disability pay, so 40% of my retirement pay is offset. Which would leave my fWW only 50% of that 60% retirement pay if we were to divorce. Your STBXW will be entitled to 50% of your retirement pay, but none of your disability pay. So yes, she will get some money.

If you went for 100% disability, then that means you can no longer work...at all. That's what that rating is for, because you are so mentally disabled to have any employment. My best friend is rated 100% because he is seriously f*cked up in the head that there is no way in hell he can ever work again. He's schizo affective. If he went off his many meds, he would be committed to a mental facility. His meds are the only thing thats keeping him halfway functioning. You don't seem to be at that point at all.


----------



## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> I read through your other posts Thorburn and I must say that posters have been telling you for a long time that your WW is an addict. It is funny that this is just now dawning on you.
> 
> But I am glad you are detaching finally. You said your peace to her, Now let it go. Quit talking to her, get the D filed and have her served.
> 
> Take the reigns and go forward with the kind of divorce you want. She does not seem to be inclined to fight you. Use her weakness to your advantage.


It is not that I don't know or didn't know it is that we don't or haven't sat down much and talked at all in the past several months. Last night we spoke little but I was able to look at her, watch her body language, etc. I am fairly good at reading body language. D is not sinking in at all. 

I have talked to experts in this field in the last several weeks, Ph.Ds, M.D.'s etc. They all have told me about her behavior without me going into detail, that this is what sexual addicts do.

It was the irrationality last night. The not coming to terms with reality. Not that I expected her to do like she did last year, cry , plead and beg me not to D her. But i was expecting her to say, well, Mac I want to keep the one house, etc. Perhaps she felt that I had always submitted to pastors over the years that I would be caving in to the pastor. In 1999 I was a member of a large church in the same denomination. The pastor after I found out my STXW was involved with over 5 men, either physically or on line came to me and blamed me for everything. It was my fault my STXW cheated on me. He said, if your wife was an alcoholic it would be my fault, if she was a drug addict it would be my fault because I am the husband and the husband as head of the house is responsible for everything in the house. Well I swallowed that in 1999, not anymore.

So it is not that I see now that she is an addict, it is just that I have not been around this behavior since about 1997 when I stopped doing drug and alcohol counseling. Things are coming back to me about how guys would lie, deny, excuse, etc. 

The biggest thing for me is that she just will not open up to me. Give me some closure and I may never get it and that is something I will work on.


----------



## Shooboomafoo

You are going to be really happy to get this nightmare out of your life once and for all. Look at allll the energy and time consumed with it. Still, energy and time that YOU are freely giving it.

Right now, is the time to turn your attention to your own dignity, and a future that is free from this.


----------



## domah

Thorburn said:


> I thought things were going fine in R. Then several months ago something happened that did not make sense. We moved into our new home (yea I was warned). We went to our other house to get it ready for renters. We drove almost two hours and I took a route that took us about a mile from the OM's house. My wife said she would never come this way. Then a month later my wife calls me at 5 P.M on a thursday. She says she is at our antique business (almost 2 1/2 hours away). I said "what", we do this together and we could have gone on the weekend. she said, "I did not tell you because I knew you would get mad". I said no, you are calling me because you know you will not be home in time to hide what you did". She then told me she drove up the route I took. When she got home I said isn't it something that you are on this route and near the OM's house at the time he gets off work. I said your timeline is all wrong. There is no way you ever stay at the antique business that long and I accuse her of meeting up with the OM. She got mad and said I screwed up and said "I am sorry" I said what do you mean you screwed up, those are words of a cheater. If you were hiding the fact that you went to the antique business from me you would say something different not "I screwed up".
> 
> All the trust i built up was gone. I went into investigation mode.
> 
> I have had a bad feeling for a while and this morning I put a VAR in her car. She said she had to go to work. She had sex with a stranger and was bragging to him that there are other guys. I played the recording for her and she lied saying she was talking about her business. There is more but I called her family and they are shocked. They want to hear the recording. She packed up and left to go to her evil sister. We talked for two hours an she says I am wrong and she is tired of me accusing her. I said I am tired of her lying and cheating. She said the recording is not what I say it is an that I am paranoid. I told her to tell me the truth and she said she did not do anything and that I am making it up.
> 
> UNBELIEVABLE. I have dead solid proof and she is lying. After she had sex with the stranger she is telling him that there are other guys. Her brother wants to hear the recording and I will let him hear it.


You caught her. She will deny it and do *anything to rationalize* (to herself and others) her behavior. Be forewarned, because soon (if not already) she will probably begin to state you were "unavailable", uncaring, or treated her badly. She may even claim you abused her. Right now, she needs to rationalize her behavior so that she can believe she is not a bad person and will likely latch onto any reason to justify what she has done.

So now what? You caught her. You know what she is like. You know that she will not change. I don't think giving the tape to her brother will make one IOTA of a difference, but do what you have to do if it makes you feel better.

You need to ask yourself. Do you want to stay with her? Because if you do, you have to be okay with her having sex with other men. If you are not okay with that, then your only other option is to leave her. It's that simple.


----------



## Thorburn

lordmayhem said:


> Just wondering.
> 
> 
> 
> Did that doctor notify the police? School administrators, teachers, counselors, nurses, doctors, etc, are mandated by law to notify local law enforcement if they suspect abuse or assault.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you clarify something? Are your retired from the military or not? I'm not sure if you are guard or reserve? In any case, if you are not yet retired, how did you get a VA disability rating already? I thought guard and/or reserve had to serve until they were 60 or something like that. I know us active duty folks don't get our disability rating until just before or after retirement because the medical records have to be sent to the VA for review. I know that the VA is now averaging a year and a half processing disability claims, and due to the war, is very backlogged.
> 
> I agree, VA disability pay is completely untouchable. I'm personally rated at 40%, so I'm not at the magic number of 50% to get disability pay, so 40% of my retirement pay is offset. Which would leave my fWW only 50% of that 60% retirement pay if we were to divorce. Your STBXW will be entitled to 50% of your retirement pay, but none of your disability pay. So yes, she will get some money.
> 
> If you went for 100% disability, then that means you can no longer work...at all. That's what that rating is for, because you are so mentally disabled to have any employment. My best friend is rated 100% because he is seriously f*cked up in the head that there is no way in hell he can ever work again. He's schizo affective. If he went off his many meds, he would be committed to a mental facility. His meds are the only thing thats keeping him halfway functioning. You don't seem to be at that point at all.


The doctor reported me. My STXW was visited twice a day by social workers trying to convince her to file a report. My STXW laughed and said, Mac would not lift a finger against me. That is when her primary doctor got involved after he visited my STXW. He had it out with the hospital doctor stating that my STXW wife had bad bones due to her chemo, etc, (they now treated her for it and she is not brittle anymore). I remember my STXW was mad and she filed a complaint against the doctor. I remember meeting the doctor and when he found out I just got home from Iraq he mood changed. Heck I had to carry my STXW out of the house and into the E.R. she was laying on the floor upstairs in pain and could not walk on her own. 

*You err on the VA disability. My STXW can get half. It is not untouchable. * Rose v. Rose. A disabled triple amputee veteran, blind in one eye, requiring constant care, Charlie Wayne Rose, was sent to jail for failing to pay alimony and child support. Released after a short period when he agreed to relinquish his disability compensation for child support. 
Then there is Brownell VS Brownell. Not untouchable. 

I am retired from the National Guard but I am still in the Army Reserve. I have at least 10 years of Active Duty. I do not receive my retirement pay till age 60 minus my combat tour in Iraq. I am not clear on when I will get it as the formula is not real clear. If you served for 365 days you don't subtract 365 from age 60 to get your retirement date. The way Congres wrote the law sucks. It only applies to those that went into combat after Jan 2008 and it involves fiscal years, etc.

You also err on disability and Active Duty. I work for the VA and deal with these issues daily. I am not a benefits guy, I am a counseling therapist but we get tons of phone calls here, I just took one dealing with benefits, pensions and disability. There are people on Active Duty who are already rated for disability by the VA. Won't get into the weeds here but trust me on that one. 

You err on VA disability pay as well. A person with 10% gets paid. Any one who recieves a disability rating from the VA and it goes form 0% (yes I said 0%) to 100%. Again, not getting into the weeds but even 0% rating is good but you recieve no pay, but there are benefits for that rating. From 10% to 100% you will recieve payment. Granted, if you are in the Guard or reserve and I believe this applies to Active Duty you can't recieve both military pay and disability pay. So a Reservist or Guard member who goes to drill on a weekend will have to decide what pay he wants, drill pay or disability pay. We are working with a Veteran who is in the National Guard and has been recieving both disability pay and Guard pay for over three years. Guess what? He owes the government over $30,000 because he recieved both and that was illegal. 

As far as disability pay from the VA and military retirement. There is an offset. BUT!!!!! I have a Combat Action Badge which i recieved in combat and that qualifies me for CRSC. When I start recieving my military retirement pay I will also be receiving my disability pay from the VA and I will not recieve those payments at 100%, UNLESS I apply for CRSC (Combat Related Special Compensation). I will apply for CRSC through the Army (my branch) and I will be granted my military pension and my disability pay from the VA both at the 100% rate. If I don't there will be an offset and I recieve less. Not due to having served in combat but having recieved the CAB. Folks that served in combat must prove that they fought the enemy. The CAB, CIB, CMB in the Army automatically proves that you were engaged or engaging the enemy. If you did not recieve these badges then you have to prove that you were in fire fights. A Veteran that I work with just did this. He was involved in two fire fights in Iraq and the CAB was not awarded till after 2007 or something like that and he was there in 2004 - 2005, hence did not recieve the CAB. He can apply for it now and recieve it as it is retroactive to about 2002 or 2001. 

you also err on the 100% rating. There are Veterans who are 100% that can work. There are those that are rated at 70% to 100% that can't work. The term is unemployability. If the VA determines that you are unemployable you will not be able to work. Typically you can apply for unemployability when you are rated at 70% or greater. If you are approved you will be paid at the 100% rate. There are benefits for this and one is being tax exempt for real estate tax, fishing liscense, etc. So being rated at 100% disability does not mean you can't work. It is very confusing. 


I am not messed up to the point of where I can't work. Believe me if I wanted to I could walk out of here right now and be rated at 100%. I have 7 disabilities. 5 are rated at 0%, one is 50% and the other is I am not sure. i could make a case of the 5 issues that are at 0% when i got banged up in Iraq and easliy get a 100% rating and even could make a case for unemployability but at this point I want to work. We call it VA math but I could have a rating of 50% on one and 30% on the other six which would give me a total of 230% but it does not work that way. The VA could rate me overall at 50%. Some folks think that if they are 50% and get another 10% on another issue that would raise them to 60%, makes sense but that is not the way the VA works. We call it VA math and again it is very confusing.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

That's really sad, bureaucracy is irritating.


----------



## Thorburn

domah said:


> You caught her. She will deny it and do *anything to rationalize* (to herself and others) her behavior. Be forewarned, because soon (if not already) she will probably begin to state you were "unavailable", uncaring, or treated her badly. She may even claim you abused her. Right now, she needs to rationalize her behavior so that she can believe she is not a bad person and will likely latch onto any reason to justify what she has done.
> 
> So now what? You caught her. You know what she is like. You know that she will not change. I don't think giving the tape to her brother will make one IOTA of a difference, but do what you have to do if it makes you feel better.
> 
> You need to ask yourself. Do you want to stay with her? Because if you do, you have to be okay with her having sex with other men. If you are not okay with that, then your only other option is to leave her. It's that simple.


I have found out that she has been telling some of the family for years that I abused her, manipulated her and controlled her. That I was not there for her and that she was lonely. Some her family have stated that this is all bull but I am not talking to them and do not know if they still feel this way or not and I don't care. As many of you already know this is blameshifting and projection. Just like the pastor called me a pathological control freak, based on one meeting with my STXW yet he is the one who lied, sent a email to my one BIL and told me to submit to him and relinquish all my rights to him. I ask who is the pathological control freak?

Cheaters lie. 

Cheaters rewrite the marriage history.

From Sept 2008 till about April of 2012 her family was in her words (I have the emails and chats), evil, hateful, mean, nuts, mental, drug addicts etc etc. So I know how my STXW can be. For almost 4 years most of her family was the enemy. She controlled me as far as her family was concerned. She would not allow me to contact or talk to most of them. She is very manipulative and yet she is telling folks that I am. Yet she had plenty of time to cheat. That is the control thing. I checked on her. Put a recorder in our car. Had a GPS on our car. You see that is how I controlled her, abused her and manipulated her, because when I found out she was cheating and confronted her, in her mind, how dare I do that. And she got her middle sister to agree that a GPS and a recorder was horrible, just horrible

The statement that she can't look at herself as a bad person is dead on. She can't. In her mind she isn't I made her do this and I made her this way. Typical addict thinking. Can't accept responsibility for their problems so they deny and lie and blameshift. 

The pastor made a comment that when I was talking to him I was trying to build a case against my STXW. Duh! What was I suppose to say to him? My wife is a wonderful person and I am a rotten SOB? His statement that I drove my wife into the arms of all these men says it all. I did. Yep. All my fault. Just like the pastor in 1999 from this same denomination it is always the husband's fault no matter what. Women are just to frail or whatever. So I ruined the marriages when I confronted the OM's and told the wives. I guess I should have never done that. 

I tell my Vets never accept blame for those things you did not do and never accept blame when your spouse cheats. Yes you may contribute to a sucky marriage, own that but cheating is always 100% the fault of the cheater. Always.


----------



## aug

Thorburn said:


> I tell my Vets never accept blame for those things you did not do and never accept blame when your spouse cheats. Yes you may contribute to a sucky marriage, own that but cheating is always 100% the fault of the cheater. Always.


Sometimes, as in possibly the case here, the sucky marriage is really the cheating spouse's fault. That she lacks self-control and allowed herself to be a sexual addict is not something you can or should claim contribution to.


----------



## Curse of Millhaven

First I would like to wish you a (belated) happy birthday! Sounds like you had a much deserved wonderful day; for that I am glad. 

A lot has happened and again you are coping with it all admirably. One thing that I notice that is of great import is that over the last several pages you have begun referring to your wife as “soon to be ex-wife” instead of your “wayward spouse” or “wayward wife”. I think that is significant and really shows your commitment to your proposed course of action. I usually try to hold out hope for failing marriages (barring abuse, of course), but unfortunately in your case I do believe divorce is the healthiest option for you. And in actuality you have been abused…she has abused your good faith, your trust, your marital vows, and your love. It’s not surprising that you have heart problems (which I was saddened to read). I hope soon you will be able to focus on your health and have this issue corrected with surgery as you stated. 

You have received great advice here, as usual, and I agree with those who have stated that you should focus on your divorce first, minimize the distractions (other people’s problems), and if you decide to revisit a lawsuit against the unethical pastor in the future you can do so. The adage “revenge is the dish best served cold” comes to mind…and I generally agree with the sentiment in that it allows logic to prevail rather than operating from a place of raw emotion. 

I’m going to go against the grain and say that I support your decision to write that revealing email to her oldest brother. Writing out your feelings and thoughts can be cathartic and a healthy way to expel pent up negative emotions. I don’t think the legal fall out from that letter will be as drastic as some have suggested, but I do think you should probably keep your cards close to your chest from now on. You’ve said your piece; now focus on your divorce and recovery.

As far as getting any kind of acknowledgement of wrongdoing or an apology from your wife...I don't really see that forthcoming. She is so used to lying that she's convinced herself that her lies are true. Addicts always lie to themselves first to justify their behavior before they ever try to convince anyone else of their innocence. You may never get the sense of closure that you are seeking from her because frankly I don't think she is mentally capable of owning her sh!t. But sometimes you just have to forgive the offender for your own sake so that you can move on with your healing process. 

I know I keep expressing my sorrow over your situation, but I have to say again I am so very sorry for all that you are going through. I’m a compassionate person too and I have pity for your STBXW as well, but maybe not for the same reasons that you do. She has ruined a loving marriage, thrown away a faithful, good man and destroyed her family and home for what…? Nasty, illicit, dangerous sex with countless strangers? It’s beyond comprehension to me so the only way I can even begin to make sense of it is to rationalize her behavior as a sickness and to pity her for the sad, damaged creature that she is. It’s just unfortunate that her damage became yours. I know you are hurting now, but I have faith in you and hope for your future free of her. You are a resilient, strong soul; you will absolutely get through and over this. And in the future when you have healed from the worst of this, it is my hope that you will find the love and fidelity that you deserve. Stay the course and take care of yourself.


----------



## Thorburn

Curse of Millhaven said:


> First I would like to wish you a (belated) happy birthday! Sounds like you had a much deserved wonderful day; for that I am glad.
> 
> A lot has happened and again you are coping with it all admirably. One thing that I notice that is of great import is that over the last several pages you have begun referring to your wife as “soon to be ex-wife” instead of your “wayward spouse” or “wayward wife”. I think that is significant and really shows your commitment to your proposed course of action. I usually try to hold out hope for failing marriages (barring abuse, of course), but unfortunately in your case I do believe divorce is the healthiest option for you. And in actuality you have been abused…she has abused your good faith, your trust, your marital vows, and your love. It’s not surprising that you have heart problems (which I was saddened to read). I hope soon you will be able to focus on your health and have this issue corrected with surgery as you stated.
> 
> You have received great advice here, as usual, and I agree with those who have stated that you should focus on your divorce first, minimize the distractions (other people’s problems), and if you decide to revisit a lawsuit against the unethical pastor in the future you can do so. The adage “revenge is the dish best served cold” comes to mind…and I generally agree with the sentiment in that it allows logic to prevail rather than operating from a place of raw emotion.
> 
> I’m going to go against the grain and say that I support your decision to write that revealing email to her oldest brother. Writing out your feelings and thoughts can be cathartic and a healthy way to expel pent up negative emotions. I don’t think the legal fall out from that letter will be as drastic as some have suggested, but I do think you should probably keep your cards close to your chest from now on. You’ve said your piece; now focus on your divorce and recovery.
> 
> As far as getting any kind of acknowledgement of wrongdoing or an apology from your wife...I don't really see that forthcoming. She is so used to lying that she's convinced herself that her lies are true. Addicts always lie to themselves first to justify their behavior before they ever try to convince anyone else of their innocence. You may never get the sense of closure that you are seeking from her because frankly I don't think she is mentally capable of owning her sh!t. But sometimes you just have to forgive the offender for your own sake so that you can move on with your healing process.
> 
> I know I keep expressing my sorrow over your situation, but I have to say again I am so very sorry for all that you are going through. I’m a compassionate person too and I have pity for your STBXW as well, but maybe not for the same reasons that you do. She has ruined a loving marriage, thrown away a faithful, good man and destroyed her family and home for what…? Nasty, illicit, dangerous sex with countless strangers? It’s beyond comprehension to me so the only way I can even begin to make sense of it is to rationalize her behavior as a sickness and to pity her for the sad, damaged creature that she is. It’s just unfortunate that her damage became yours. I know you are hurting now, but I have faith in you and hope for your future free of her. You are a resilient, strong soul; you will absolutely get through and over this. And in the future when you have healed from the worst of this, it is my hope that you will find the love and fidelity that you deserve. Stay the course and take care of yourself.


Thanks for your kind words.

I have written several letters to my in-laws over the past week. Saved them. Read them and then deleted them. It was what I have had my clients do for years. Write out letters to folks and then tell them to destroy them and don't send them out. 

Switching over to STBXW was not something I was aware of actually doing and without going back a few pages I don't know when I started this. Ironic that somewhere in the process I just went from WS to STBXW to describe her.

I did marriage counseling as a pastor and chaplain in the 90's and then some in the Army in the 2000's. My take was that any marriage can be healed and I still believe it. I remember the worst case I ever had, both spouses were addicts, she was clean two years he was clean and sober from crack for less than a year. They had 4 children and both had multiple A's. They fought at every session but did their home work assignments. It was a freaken mess. On the sixth session they came in holding hands smiling. I had thought at the very beginning that this marriage is over. They had decided to forgive each other. This was unreal. i ran into them a few years ago and they are still together. But there are times where one or the other has had enough and I am OK with that. Being a firm believer in R I have learned the hard reality of false R. Everyone can change but will they?

The pastor has been texting me up till yesterday. I do not respond. I have a year to sue if I want. So I have put it aside for now.

Yes I exposed myself legally but realistically that is all I have done. There are not many cases where this stuff becomes a legal matter and I would submit, what recordings? Where are they? Who actually recorded who? and I could go on. She is not going to go there. Two months ago when she was in her I am going to take you for all your worth mode, perhaps, but not now. She has really mellowed.

Closure, apologies, confession, etc. I don't see it happening. Forgiveness, yes I will forgive her and perhaps I have already. I am required to forgive, I in my faith have no other option. But I understand forgiveness and what it is and what it is not. And I can move forward without her in my life. perhaps this weekend I will tell her that I forgive her and that I am continuing to follow through with D.

I have recieved excellent advice here. Some have gotten mad and got so frustrated with me. I certainly understand. I would weave, duck, hide, run, charge, retreat, etc. I remember when I met Bandit (he is banned right now). His way of dealing with the D and his ex was to me classic. I wish that I was wired like him because I would have been through D back in early 2012 and have moved on. Bandit warned me, gave me advice, but like a friend stuck by me even when I was a knucklehead. And Bandit is not the only one, I mention him because he can't defend himself, he is banned, poor fellow, can't wait till he comes back. I have made friends here and those folks know who they are. I have talked on the phone with some. The advice that I have recieved here did not contradict the advice that I got from Focus on the Family and the Christian psychologists and psychiatrist, and friends outside of TAM that I have talked with. Some of these folks I have spent hours talking with and some I went in for counseling. I don't find it surprising that both Christian, atheists, other faiths, etc come to the same conclusions. Of course they have different views on whether it demonic, psychological, cosmic, dna, or caused by eating Campbell's soup but we all see the same patterns in cheaters, the same script, etc. We pretty much know what R should look like (true R). We feel it when it is not right. Not always but more times then not, we read someone's post and we get it (IMO) correct more times then not. Isn't it amazing how someone writes a post or a bunch of posts and we get it. Some knucklehead writes words and we say hey wait a minute, don't be a doormat, or that is false R buddy, or whatever the issue is. Many run and don't come back. Often times it is because they are told the truth and they can't handle it, some will say, no way no how, only to find that the wizard is a fraud behind a curtain and that is what many on TAM are telling them. It would be amazing if all the posters that ran would come back and tell us what happened. Too many times we are left hanging and it would be helpful if we could get the final story.

I have some things planned for this weekend. Work around the house. I have a positive attitude and do see the end of my marriage. My STBXW can drag out the D for two years or more. And if that happens (and it could very well happen) I really don't know what I will do.


----------



## bandit.45

They made me go stand in the corner. 

I'm glad the wheels re slowly turning in motion Thorburn. After all this time it seems like you finally have your head on straight and you have a vector you're following. Good on you. 

Remember what I told you once about getting closure from your WW?...

It's not going to happen. For her to tell you the truth and give you all the details of her past affairs would require her to face who and what she is. She is terrified of doing that. So she has created a virtual reality for herself, where she does no wrong and you are the mean hurtful ogre. 

Detach, detach, detach. Ditch the in-laws, ditch the pastors, ditch the WW. She's poison to you. At most you should just be treating her like a co-worker in you furniture refinishing business... nothing more. Quit talking to her. Its a waste of time. Get the attorney going and hand the reigns over to him. Fight the urge to be a control freak.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> They made me go stand in the corner.
> 
> I'm glad the wheels re slowly turning in motion Thorburn. After all this time it seems like you finally have your head on straight and you have a vector you're following. Good on you.
> 
> Remember what I told you once about getting closure from your WW?...
> 
> It's not going to happen. For her to tell you the truth and give you all the details of her past affairs would require her to face who and what she is. She is terrified of doing that. So she has created a virtual reality for herself, where she does no wrong and you are the mean hurtful ogre.
> 
> Detach, detach, detach. Ditch the in-laws, ditch the pastors, ditch the WW. She's poison to you. At most you should just be treating her like a co-worker in you furniture refinishing business... nothing more. Quit talking to her. Its a waste of time. Get the attorney going and hand the reigns over to him. Fight the urge to be a control freak.


My oldest son keeps saying "mom is living in fear". She has no plan. She is working her butt off, giving me money as an attempt to keep the marriage going. That has been one of the major problems in our marriage. My STBXW has always done things that she thinks I want or need but never ever got it. There was never a wow moment from her. I gave her tons of wow moments. I knew what she wanted for her b-days, Christmas, etc. Most b-days, Christmas', I would always be disappointed. She never ever heard me say what I wanted. I heard her. She would tell me she never knew what to get me. No, she never cared to know. When I was playing trumpet I wanted a certain brand and model trumpet. With some work you can find these trumpets at a great price. She never tried. I ended up buying one for myself for $250.00, she could have bought it but just never cared. The horn was worth well over $2000.00 and I still have it and need to start playing again. 

I am detaching


----------



## Thorburn

Last week when I was at my mother's house I picked up a large platic container that my younest sister left for me when she died. I just never got it, could not do it. Well I got it. It was full of stuf she wanted to give me. Her pink hat that she wore (for breast cancer) and other scarfes and things she wore after she lost her hair. The one that she wore when she died and I was in Iraq. I have them hanging where I had pictures in my bedroom. There were Harley Davison Zippo lighters, and other Harley Davison stuff (she worked for Harley for over 15 years). My father and two brothers retired from that Harley plant. It was sad and still is going through the stuff she left me. Her Bible, the picture of Jesus she had hanging up and I remember her telling me about her faith and hope. She had a realistic view of things. My family was concerned when the cancer went to her brain and she started acting crazy after her D and after moving in with my parents. Her meathead husband was a nice man until he started using steroids. He was a body builder, very little body fat, and he was about 6' 4". He got nasty on the steroids and started beating my sister saying when are you going to die. My sister did not listen to me after she came to me for advice. Got a rotten attorney and her husband ended up getting the new truck and alimony. My sister was too sick to defend herself and her attorney "liked" her husband. Anyway I went over to see my sister at the request of the family. My sister was full of faith and hope and my family was concerned that my sister was always saying she had hope yet she was terminal. When my sister explained what hope meant I cried. She was more rational that I could ever be. She knew she was dying and told me about it (my family thought she was in denial). Her hope was not in beating cancer or an unrealistic hope of being healed by God. No, her hope was in Christ and that Christ died for her and that she would be going to heaven. As crazy as she got and she got pretty nutty and had to be committed for a while (due to the cancer in her brain) she remained hopeful of what death would mean for her. 

About three months prior to me leaving for Iraq she started calling me and leaving messages on the phone and they were nasty. She called my employer, my STXW, my Army unit saying nasty things about me. Everyone took it in stride when I explained that she had brain cancer and to expect more calls. After training at Fort Polk we were given a week at Christmas to go home prior to leaving for Iraq. I thought I would never see my sister again and the memory of those phone messages would be the last memories I would have. My sister called me and asked me and my STBXW to come over to my parents house, she wanted to talk. I did not know what to expect and I went. My sister told me that she was sorry, that she loved me, gave me a hug, said be safe in Iraq and walked out of the room. That was the last time I saw her. It was the best Christmas gift I ever receieved. I left for Iraq a few days later having peace that my sister made up with me. I never blamed her for her behavior, she had freaken brain cancer, but it was a relief that our parting was on terms of redemption, forgiveness, love and hope.


----------



## turnera

That's so sad. My dad had a brain tumor once, and he turned into a stranger, too. Went back to normal after it was removed. 

I'm glad you got peace with her.


----------



## bandit.45

When life decides to sh!t on you it gets diarrhea doesn't Thorburn? 

Hey wasn't there a cute waitress eyeballing you last year? Or was that someone else?


----------



## Chris989

Thorburn said:


> Last week when I was at my mother's house I picked up a large platic container that my younest sister left for me when she died. I just never got it, could not do it. Well I got it. It was full of stuf she wanted to give me. Her pink hat that she wore (for breast cancer) and other scarfes and things she wore after she lost her hair. The one that she wore when she died and I was in Iraq. I have them hanging where I had pictures in my bedroom. There were Harley Davison Zippo lighters, and other Harley Davison stuff (she worked for Harley for over 15 years). My father and two brothers retired from that Harley plant. It was sad and still is going through the stuff she left me. Her Bible, the picture of Jesus she had hanging up and I remember her telling me about her faith and hope. She had a realistic view of things. My family was concerned when the cancer went to her brain and she started acting crazy after her D and after moving in with my parents. Her meathead husband was a nice man until he started using steroids. He was a body builder, very little body fat, and he was about 6' 4". He got nasty on the steroids and started beating my sister saying when are you going to die. My sister did not listen to me after she came to me for advice. Got a rotten attorney and her husband ended up getting the new truck and alimony. My sister was too sick to defend herself and her attorney "liked" her husband. Anyway I went over to see my sister at the request of the family. My sister was full of faith and hope and my family was concerned that my sister was always saying she had hope yet she was terminal. When my sister explained what hope meant I cried. She was more rational that I could ever be. She knew she was dying and told me about it (my family thought she was in denial). Her hope was not in beating cancer or an unrealistic hope of being healed by God. No, her hope was in Christ and that Christ died for her and that she would be going to heaven. As crazy as she got and she got pretty nutty and had to be committed for a while (due to the cancer in her brain) she remained hopeful of what death would mean for her.
> 
> About three months prior to me leaving for Iraq she started calling me and leaving messages on the phone and they were nasty. She called my employer, my STXW, my Army unit saying nasty things about me. Everyone took it in stride when I explained that she had brain cancer and to expect more calls. After training at Fort Polk we were given a week at Christmas to go home prior to leaving for Iraq. I thought I would never see my sister again and the memory of those phone messages would be the last memories I would have. My sister called me and asked me and my STBXW to come over to my parents house, she wanted to talk. I did not know what to expect and I went. My sister told me that she was sorry, that she loved me, gave me a hug, said be safe in Iraq and walked out of the room. That was the last time I saw her. It was the best Christmas gift I ever receieved. I left for Iraq a few days later having peace that my sister made up with me. I never blamed her for her behavior, she had freaken brain cancer, but it was a relief that our parting was on terms of redemption, forgiveness, love and hope.


Hey Thorburn. I am glad you got this closure, but I don't mind admitting I am sitting here crying.

What can I say other than to keep going. You mention Christ quite often and he really is an inspiration for sure, but you certainly seem to live his message.


----------



## Thorburn

What an amazing four days.

Confession, Forgiveness, and Grace.

I don't know how to explain any of this. I don't know where to start and can't believe how the events since Friday through tonight can be explained.

I stopped the D.

On Friday I was done. Finished with all this crap. I had to pick up another table and chairs after work. I then stopped at a bar to have a few drinks and pick up a woman. Yes, I went there. I found one but left and went home. My wife had cut her hair and had a lock of her cut hair with a bow and gave it to me. I won't explain this but it was significant and meant a lot to me. I was done, handed my wedding ring to my wife and told her "I am done, either take the ring or I am going out to sell it". My wife said I thought the marriage could be saved. She said she repented and turned back to God. I said "What marriage?" and where is the repentance?

My son wanted to go camping and I decided to get a cabin for him on Saturday. So I spent most of the day getting him fishing stuff and getting his camping gear together. My son and I left and I got him set up at the camp and I left. I went home. My wife was down and my son called saying he wanted to come home. I said no. I then asked my wife if she wanted to surprise our son and we went to his camp. It was over an hour and my wife hardly said a word. We had a great time with our son and we left in the evening. As we were driving I was getting mad. I said to my wife, so you repented? And she said yes. We drove further and I said you know what one the problems is? She said no. I said you can talk a mile a minute with a guy laying naked in our car the the same with your mental sister, I said you can't shut up, but you can't talk to me. I said we have over an hour to go to get home and you just sit there. I said I was home for a week and hardly a peep from you and you say you want the marriage to work.

I don't know when but I asked my wife were you with the OM from 2011 on a particular day recently. She said, yes. Then it broke, tears, snot, a huge confession, everything came out. It has been the OM from 2011 all along. A few other guys but nothing happened she said.

I did not believe her and when we got home she brought her computer to me and there is all was. Nothing was deleted, she did not have time. I asked questions and she answered them right away. I could go on here but I got most of what I suspected.

I wrote the OM's wife an email. Contacted his pastor. The following morning I got and email back from the wife stating never to contact her again and that her husband stopped seeing my wife in 2011.. This triggered me big time. I showed my wife. She tried to convince me. I called the pastor (long story) and he wanted to talk to my wife because he did not believe me.

There is a lot more that happened on Sunday but I will fill that in later.

Today. I was in a very dark place. The things my wife shared with me took hold of me and I went numb. I was going to leave work and kill the OM.

I called the OM's pastor and boss. I threaten to do a picket at their work, church and the OM's home and that I was going to hire homeless men to do this this weekend. I was nasty. I said if the Om does not confess to his wife today and if there is not a meeting set up between the pastor, the OM and me by 7 P.M. tonight they will regret it. I said I am tired of the lies, the cheating and I will do something about it.

I went deeper into darkness. My wife called me around two and she said she had to go to the E.R. I insisted in coming home and taking her and I did. We were in the E.R. for over 3 hours and they forgot my wife was there. It set me off and we left. I offered to take my wife to another E.R. and she said let's go eat. We went to a dinner, As we were talking I told my wife I am going to kill the OM tonight if I don not receive a phone call by 7 P.M.

We went home and my wife got her Bible was hugging me, praying for me and I was in darkness. I told my wife I did not believe her, that it was the OM. She was pleading and saying I can prove it. She said let me listen to the recording there were things said that will prove that it is him. I said ok. I did not believe her. I said I will be back in 30 seconds. I went out to my truck to get the recording and it was right around 7 P.M. 

Guess who called?

The OM. His first words were, "I am sorry".

Right now I can't write anymore and will finish tomorrow.


----------



## Machiavelli

Really?


----------



## BK23

dude.....


----------



## vi_bride04

Wow. Sorry, man. Good luck.


----------



## Shaggy

Be there in the room looking into the guys wife's eyes when he confesses.


----------



## Shaggy

Also what about the other men these many years?


----------



## turnera

So...you're back together now?

Wow. That was easy.


----------



## happyman64

Thorburn

I hope you are not setting yourself for more heartbreak.

And for your sake please do not kill anyone.

Neither of them are worth it.

Prayers for you Thorburn.


----------



## thatbpguy

OK. So she is starting to confess. 

But how does this translate to the fact she has no respect for you, your marriage or the family?


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## Kasler

This is bad.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

You're like a candle in the wind Thornburg.


----------



## Decorum

"*Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance*; 9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10 The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Matthew Chapter 3

Snot is not enough! Words are not enough!

Its a good start, in this case long over do, but what are the fruits that need to be there? What actions over time will show her repentance as genuine, and her character as restored?

Be clear in your own mind, make a list!!

Rremember to include genuine respect, passion, complete honesty, full support.

There are more but these have just been woefully lacking.

Its not about sentimentality.

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. *By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.* 1John Chapter 2

She justified her wrong doing before God, she did this without regard for you, her repentance before God was also done without regard to you. What does the scripture say you are to do if you are presenting yourself to God and there remember that your "brother" has somthing against you?
You know the answer to this!

You see this type of thinking in the Church quite a bit, people want to do it their way, instead of following His way.

Its shows a serious disconnsct in her conscience, no suprise there right?

Yes we are all fallen and broken but we do not have to rugsweep someones brokeness and pretend its not there.

It is better to limp into the Kingdom with your eye gouged out then not go in at all, but we dont have to pertend the brokeness is not there.

You deserve so much more than a last ditch effort! Be careful!

Take care!


----------



## Affaircare

I'm going to make a statement here that I doubt will be very popular--to Thorburn or to "the regulars" here who care about him.

Here's the truth: for years and years..DECADES really... Thorburn has been in a co-dependent relationship with his wife. In my personal opinion it teeters over the brink of emotional abuse, but he would probably disagree. I don't in ANY way think it is even close to healthy! And when a person is used to abusive treatment, they are just as sick as the one who is doing the abusing. 

Part of HIM has to want to change and be healthy, and I don't think he's quite there yet. Just as we can all pretty easily see that his wife isn't going to really change until something within her hits bottom and she wants it inside herself...it's exactly the same for Thorburn. Some part of him is going to need it so badly that he is willing to risk the pain of admitting the marriage is not a marriage...and again I say I don't think he's quite there yet. 

I admire people who understand what commitment is...people who don't just look to "make themselves happy"...people who take their promises seriously. I think Thorburn really IS that kind of man! But I bet you money he thinks he is showing his wife commitment but "giving her another chance" and yet again giving in to her manipulation and emotional abuse. She has not demonstrated ONE WIT of change, and certainly not for any consistent amount of time!! 

But I will remind all you "regulars" who are in it for the long haul with Thorburn that it took me seven times to leave my exH. Seven times. We would separate--I'd be miserable (because I was ALSO sick and I ALSO needed to change)--he'd make promises--I'd want it to be true--we're reunite--he'd do it all again--we would separate--I'd be miserable etc. ad infinitem. I believe Thorburn is at least as intelligent as I am , and I figured it out. Our job is to love him enough to let him experience the FULL CONSEQUENCES of his choices, and not clean up any of the mess he makes. Our job is to show we love him but not giving up out of frustration, but not lying to him either. 

*sigh*

Thorburn, to you directly I will only say that to my mind even if she confessed EVERYTHING and showed you photos of it all, this does not change anything except for one thing: when she goes to meet her Maker, it is conceivable she may have made peace with Him. Other than that, even Jesus, who is God and a member of the Trinity, said that the for sexual impurity a man could put away his wife with a divorce. I don't really care what the in-laws and pastors in some denomination say. That is all minutia that is distracting your focus. If she's truly sorry, and she's truly repentant, cool. I'm the first to believe where there's life, there's hope! But right now...NOTHING has changed. NO Thing. At best (and this is really, really slim) give her time like a year or two to demonstrate to you what a different person she is ALL BY HERSELF. If she doesn't get herself to sex addict therapy, she's still an addict. If she doesn't do the work herself, she's still an addict. If she doesn't start to act like she respects you, she still disrespects you. If she doesn't start to talk to you or notice things you say, she still disrespects you. 

Much love my brother and I hope you hear this in the way it is intended.


----------



## Decorum

Affaircare, Matron of TAM, 

I have read this twice and I cant figure out what you said that would be unpopular, nor anything I would disagree with.

But in any event well said!


----------



## aug

WorkingOnMe said:


> You're like a candle in the wind Thornburg.



Never knowing who to cling to when the rain set in


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

I wouldn't get too worked up folks. I have the feeling that this R will be doing a 180 and soon. You just know what's gonna happen.

Boy, do I feel bad for this guy.


----------



## BobSimmons

I predict this will be the first thread to reach 500 pages. I'm stepping off this roundabout. Good luck Thorburn.


----------



## Curse of Millhaven

I don’t really know what to say here. I’ve started a reply and deleted it 3 times now. I’m surprised, yet at the same time not surprised at all. Your wife (you have changed back to "my wife" instead of STBXW so I will respectfully refer to her as such as well) has been holding back giving you a confession or an apology all this time, despite your repeated attempts to get some form of acknowledgement from her, because she was waiting to see how serious you were about divorcing her. She has gotten away with this behavior in the past and you stayed with her, so this time perhaps she didn’t want to put herself all the way out there in the event that you were not going to follow through again. Her admission and disclosure do indeed seem like a last ditch effort to keep you tethered to her. How genuine is her repentance and commitment to change…? No one can say, but this certainly seems like a pattern for her, and sadly, for you.

If you think the other man is the main issue and had some sway over your wife, you are mistaken. He didn’t have a Svengali hold on your wife. She broke her vows and home of her own accord…over and over again. Your wife and her “sickness” are the issue. And sadly, your relentless relenting is also an issue. Your wife may be a sex addict, but you are addicted to her it seems. 

I agree completely with everything Affaircare said here. Not one thing has changed other than an admission of guilt that was already a forgone conclusion. She has not even begun the damn near revolutionary therapeutic work it would require to bring about sincere change. If you do decide to stay with her I hope you insist on marriage counseling and intensive treatment for her…at the least. I think you should look into individual therapy as well. When I suggested several pages back that you seek support for yourself, it wasn’t because I thought you were manic or “crazy”…you are dealing with an incredible amount of stress and emotional anguish. Anyone would need the benefit of outside support and counsel. 

Whether you decide to divorce or to stay with her, you have my support. I in no way judge you or think less of you for trying yet again. I myself have stayed true to a man many would have left long ago and despite divorce seeming inevitable I keep fighting for us and will likely go down with this ship. We all have to decide for ourselves what path is right for us and for our marriages. My hope for you remains the same…I hope you find the love and fidelity you deserve.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Thorburn said:


> What an amazing four days.
> 
> Confession, Forgiveness, and Grace.
> 
> I don't know how to explain any of this. I don't know where to start and can't believe how the events since Friday through tonight can be explained.
> 
> I stopped the D.
> 
> On Friday I was done. Finished with all this crap. I had to pick up another table and chairs after work. I then stopped at a bar to have a few drinks and pick up a woman. Yes, I went there. I found one but left and went home. My wife had cut her hair and had a lock of her cut hair with a bow and gave it to me. I won't explain this but it was significant and meant a lot to me. I was done, handed my wedding ring to my wife and told her "I am done, either take the ring or I am going out to sell it". My wife said I thought the marriage could be saved. She said she repented and turned back to God. I said "What marriage?" and where is the repentance?
> 
> My son wanted to go camping and I decided to get a cabin for him on Saturday. So I spent most of the day getting him fishing stuff and getting his camping gear together. My son and I left and I got him set up at the camp and I left. I went home. My wife was down and my son called saying he wanted to come home. I said no. I then asked my wife if she wanted to surprise our son and we went to his camp. It was over an hour and my wife hardly said a word. We had a great time with our son and we left in the evening. As we were driving I was getting mad. I said to my wife, so you repented? And she said yes. We drove further and I said you know what one the problems is? She said no. I said you can talk a mile a minute with a guy laying naked in our car the the same with your mental sister, I said you can't shut up, but you can't talk to me. I said we have over an hour to go to get home and you just sit there. I said I was home for a week and hardly a peep from you and you say you want the marriage to work.
> 
> I don't know when but I asked my wife were you with the OM from 2011 on a particular day recently. She said, yes. Then it broke, tears, snot, a huge confession, everything came out. It has been the OM from 2011 all along. A few other guys but nothing happened she said.
> 
> I did not believe her and when we got home she brought her computer to me and there is all was. Nothing was deleted, she did not have time. I asked questions and she answered them right away. I could go on here but I got most of what I suspected.
> 
> I wrote the OM's wife an email. Contacted his pastor. The following morning I got and email back from the wife stating never to contact her again and that her husband stopped seeing my wife in 2011.. This triggered me big time. I showed my wife. She tried to convince me. I called the pastor (long story) and he wanted to talk to my wife because he did not believe me.
> 
> There is a lot more that happened on Sunday but I will fill that in later.
> 
> Today. I was in a very dark place. The things my wife shared with me took hold of me and I went numb. I was going to leave work and kill the OM.
> 
> I called the OM's pastor and boss. I threaten to do a picket at their work, church and the OM's home and that I was going to hire homeless men to do this this weekend. I was nasty. I said if the Om does not confess to his wife today and if there is not a meeting set up between the pastor, the OM and me by 7 P.M. tonight they will regret it. I said I am tired of the lies, the cheating and I will do something about it.
> 
> I went deeper into darkness. My wife called me around two and she said she had to go to the E.R. I insisted in coming home and taking her and I did. We were in the E.R. for over 3 hours and they forgot my wife was there. It set me off and we left. I offered to take my wife to another E.R. and she said let's go eat. We went to a dinner, As we were talking I told my wife I am going to kill the OM tonight if I don not receive a phone call by 7 P.M.
> 
> We went home and my wife got her Bible was hugging me, praying for me and I was in darkness. I told my wife I did not believe her, that it was the OM. She was pleading and saying I can prove it. She said let me listen to the recording there were things said that will prove that it is him. I said ok. I did not believe her. I said I will be back in 30 seconds. I went out to my truck to get the recording and it was right around 7 P.M.
> 
> Guess who called?
> 
> The OM. His first words were, "I am sorry".
> 
> Right now I can't write anymore and will finish tomorrow.


Sorry to say ; there is no change is your wife, she is playing to the moment and circumstance . All she has done is given you hope and your diving in body, mind and soul. Your wife is a well versed liar and actress , the OM is still safe and your heart is bleeding. No good will come out of you allowing yourself to be fooled. Forgiveness is cheap when given to the unrepentant, words are just words , action over time is what counts. 

I realise your assuming R is for you. If so set high boundaries, zero tolerance , and break all contact with the drama queens around you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

I don't understand something. In the VAR recording your wife was heard to be talking about and explaining her affair in 2011. If she was actually WITH the guy from 2011 why would she be doing that? Doesn't he already know what happened? After all, he was there too wasn't he? It only makes sense if this wasn't the same guy she had her previous affair with right? Something doesn't add up here.


----------



## survivorwife

Eli-Zor said:


> Sorry to say ; there is no change is your wife, she is playing to the moment and circumstance . All she has done is given you hope and your diving in body, mind and soul. Your wife is a well versed liar and actress , the OM is still safe and your heart is bleeding. No good will come out of you allowing yourself to be fooled. Forgiveness is cheap when given to the unrepentant, words are just words , action over time is what counts.
> 
> I realise your assuming R is for you. If so set high boundaries, zero tolerance , and break all contact with the drama queens around you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

Cheaters lie. Cheaters manipulate. It's almost an art form to be able to manipulate the situation and make it all seem like the truth. It's the way the Devil works, Thorburn. It's in the "language" you understand. She claims to be repentant. You accept her words. She claims to now be telling the truth. You accept her words. She now wants the marriage to work. So do you, so you accept what she is telling you as the truth. Because you are honorable, you assume that she has the capacity for honor.

Words, Thorburn. Just empty words. Just well used words at the right time, when you are so vulnerable. She does not want the marriage to end, but her motives behind that are not the same as yours, for if she truly and deeply loved you, you would see actions that indicate that her words where sincere. She would be willing to lose you to win you back. She would honor you. She would place you first in her heart. That's not what happened. She merely saw that you were willing to end the marriage and she used your own special "buzz words" against your heart. 

Your thread title "I am back and it gets worse". You have been though this before. You forgave at least once, only to discover that she was unfaithful again. History repeats.

It's your life and I sincerely wish you well. It's sad to see a good man with a good heart like yourself being taken advantage of. If you truly desire a successful R, look to her actions. Not her words. Look to her motives. Not her words. Cheaters lie.

Best of luck to you Thorburn.


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## Jasel

Thoburn your wife is playing you just like she's been playing you, your children, her family, and everyone else for who knows how long to get what she wants. It's your life and your marriage so I'm not going to come down on you. 

But you are making a mistake, again. You really do seem to have a habit of going against common sense, practical advice and instead going with your gut, feelings, faith, spirits (I'm not dogging on your religious views or anything just being general), etc and winding up in even worse situations than you were in before. 

You take advice from the wrong people, you look to forgive people who have done nothing to earn any type of forgivness, you make bad decisions that make no sense hoping for the best only for them to turn into disasters (ie: buying that house with your wife).

You seem like a really nice guy. I am asking you to PLEASE use some common sense for once and stick to the current course that you were on. Stick with the divorce. If your wife can prove down the road that she is seriously willing to be honest, change, and get some help maybe consider reconciling later AFTER SHE PROVES SHE CAN CHANGE. But please stop making bad and rash decisions because people tell you what you want to hear, throw a Bible in your face or talk about religion and apologize. And from what you say it sounds like she's STILL lying. You are just setting yourself up to be screwed over even more.


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## Almostrecovered

Symptoms of Codependency | Psych Central


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## Kasler

^ Agreed. I'm shocked at this, and deeply worried for his mental state. If he would so readily jump back into the bear trap he just very nearly got out of completely, his psyche must not be extremely fragile and hanging on a thread of false hope. I think he may be at critical mass this time though, not sure he can take any more.


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## karole

Thornburn, please, please, do not make any decisions now - take some time - be by yourself for a while and just think and pray. Your wife needs to seek help, not just repentance, but intense psychological help.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

Curse of Millhaven said:


> I don’t really know what to say here. I’ve started a reply and deleted it 3 times now. I’m surprised, yet at the same time not surprised at all. Your wife (you have changed back to "my wife" instead of STBXW so I will respectfully refer to her as such as well) has been holding back giving you a confession or an apology all this time, despite your repeated attempts to get some form of acknowledgement from her, because she was waiting to see how serious you were about divorcing her. She has gotten away with this behavior in the past and you stayed with her, so this time perhaps she didn’t want to put herself all the way out there in the event that you were not going to follow through again. Her admission and disclosure do indeed seem like a last ditch effort to keep you tethered to her. How genuine is her repentance and commitment to change…? No one can say, but this certainly seems like a pattern for her, and sadly, for you.
> 
> If you think the other man is the main issue and had some sway over your wife, you are mistaken. He didn’t have a Svengali hold on your wife. *She broke her vows and home of her own accord…over and over again.* Your wife and her “sickness” are the issue. And sadly, your relentless relenting is also an issue. Your wife may be a sex addict, but you are addicted to her it seems.
> 
> I agree completely with everything Affaircare said here. Not one thing has changed other than an admission of guilt that was already a forgone conclusion. She has not even begun the damn near revolutionary therapeutic work it would require to bring about sincere change. If you do decide to stay with her I hope you insist on marriage counseling and intensive treatment for her…at the least. I think you should look into individual therapy as well. When I suggested several pages back that you seek support for yourself, it wasn’t because I thought you were manic or “crazy”…you are dealing with an incredible amount of stress and emotional anguish. Anyone would need the benefit of outside support and counsel.
> 
> Whether you decide to divorce or to stay with her, you have my support. I in no way judge you or think less of you for trying yet again. I myself have stayed true to a man many would have left long ago and despite divorce seeming inevitable I keep fighting for us and will likely go down with this ship. We all have to decide for ourselves what path is right for us and for our marriages. My hope for you remains the same…I hope you find the love and fidelity you deserve.


And again and again and again....

I did a ctrl/f on the last few pages of posts to see how many times the word again was used. Do it yourself. You'll see again after again after again...


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## Thorburn

I will try to address some of your concerns today but first I would like to address the issue of co-dependency. I am not co-dependent, there is not such a thing. It is bogus. 

In 1992 I was sent for training in con-dependency. After three days of training I came to the conclusion that it is bunk. My organization had bought it hook line and sinker. Some higher up staff and the director had gone to a conference and co-dependency was the rage. They wanted me to get trained in it bring it back to the organization and be the trainer to other staff. I brought back all the materials and said I can't teach this crap to other staff.

Read some of this for yourself and you will find that everyone is co-dependent. Often times the counselor who uses this will say to the client, pick and choose what applies to you. Sure they do, you will find yourself somewhere in this list.

Codependency involves a habitual system of thinking, feeling, and behaving toward ourselves and others that can cause pain.
Codependent behaviors or habits are self-destructive.
We frequently react to people who are destroying themselves; we react by learning to destroy ourselves. These habits can lead us into, or keep us in, destructive relationships that don't work. These behaviors can sabotage relationships that may otherwise have worked. These behaviors can prevent us from finding peace and happiness with the most important person in our lives.... ourselves. These behaviors belong to the only person we can change.. ourselves. These are our problems.
The following are characteristics of codependent persons: (We started to do these things out of necessity to protect ourselves and meet our needs.)
Care Taking


Codependents may,
1. Think and feel responsible for other people---for other people's feelings, thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being, lack of well-being, and ultimate destiny.
2. Feel anxiety, pity, and guilt when other people have a problem.
3. Feel compelled --almost forced -- to help that person solve the problem, such as offering unwanted advice, giving a rapid-fire series of suggestions, or fixing feelings.
4. Feel angry when their help isn't effective.
5. Anticipate other people's needs
6. Wonder why others don't do the same for them.
7. Don't really want to be doing, doing more than their fair share of the work, and doing things other people are capable of doing for themselves.
8. Not knowing what they want and need, or if they do, tell themselves what they want and need is not important.
9. Try to please others instead of themselves.
10. Find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others rather than injustices done to themselves.
11. Feel safest when giving.
12. Feel insecure and guilty when somebody gives to them. 
13. Feel sad because they spend their whole lives giving to other people and nobody gives to them.
14. Find themselves attracted to needy people.
15. Find needy people attracted to them.
16. Feel bored, empty, and worthless if they don't have a crisis in their lives, a problem to solve, or someone to help.
17. Abandon their routine to respond to or do something for somebody else.
18. Over commit themselves.
19. Feel harried and pressured.
20. Believe deep inside other people are somehow responsible for them.
21. Blame others for the spot the codependents are in.
22. Say other people make the codependents feel the way they do.
23. Believe other people are making them crazy.
24. Feel angry, victimized, unappreciated, and used.
25. Find other people become impatient or angry with them for all of the preceding characteristics.


Low Self Worth 

Codependents tend to:
1. Come from troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional families.
2. Deny their family was troubled, repressed or dysfunctional.
3. Blame themselves for everything.
4. Pick on themselves for everything, including the way they think, feel, look, act, and behave.
5. Get angry, defensive, self-righteous, and indigent when others blame and criticize the codependents -- something codependents regularly do to themselves.
6. Reject compliments or praise
7. Get depressed from a lack of compliments and praise (stroke deprivation)
8. Feel different from the rest of the world.
9. Think they're not quite good enough.
10. Feel guilty about spending money on themselves or doing unnecessary or fun things for themselves.
11. Fear rejection. 
12. Take things personally.
13. Have been victims of sexual, physical, or emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment, or alcoholism.
14. Feel like victims.
15. Tell themselves they can't do anything right.
16. Be afraid of making mistakes.
17. Wonder why they have a tough time making decisions.
18. Have a lot of "shoulds".
19. Feel a lot of guilt.
20. Feel ashamed of who they are.
21. Think their lives are not worth living.
22. Try to help other people live their lives instead.
23. Get artificial feelings of self-worth from helping others.
24. Get strong feelings of low self-worth ---embarrassment, failure, etc...from other people's failures and problems.
25. Wish good things would happen to them.
26. Believe good things never will happen.
27. Believe they don't deserve good things and happiness.
28. Wish others would like and love them.
29. Believe other people couldn't possibly like and love them.
30. Try to prove they're good enough for other people.
31. Settle for being needed.


Repression


Many Codependents:
1. Push their thoughts and feelings out of their awareness because of fear and guilt.
2. Become afraid to let themselves be who they are.
3. Appear rigid and controlled.


Obsession 

Codependents tend to: 
1. Feel terribly anxious about problems and people.
2. Worry about the silliest things.
3. Think and talk a lot about other people.
4. Lose sleep over problems or other people's behavior.
5. Worry
6. Never Find answers.
7. Check on people.
8. Try to catch people in acts of misbehavior.
9. Feel unable to quit talking, thinking, and worrying about other people or problems.
10. Abandon their routine because they are so upset about somebody or something.
11. Focus all their energy on other people and problems.
12. Wonder why they never have any energy.
13. Wonder why they can't get things done.


Controlling 

Many codependents:
1. Have lived through events and with people that were out of control, causing the codependents sorrow and disappointment.
2. Become afraid to let other people be who they are and allow events to happen naturally.
3. Don't see or deal with their fear of loss of control.
4. Think they know best how things should turn out and how people should behave.
5. Try to control events and people through helplessness, guilt, coercion, threats, advice-giving, manipulation, or domination.
6. Eventually fail in their efforts or provoke people's anger. 
7. Get frustrated and angry.
8. Feel controlled by events and people.


Denial


Codependents tend to:
1. Ignore problems or pretend they aren't happening.
2. Pretend circumstances aren't as bad as they are.
3. Tell themselves things will be better tomorrow.
4. Stay busy so they don't have to think about things.
5. Get confused.
6. Get depressed or sick.
7. Go to doctors and get tranquilizers.
8. Become workaholics.
9. Spend money compulsively.
10. Overeat.
11. Pretend those things aren't happening either.
12. Watch problems get worse.
13. Believe lies.
14. Lie to themselves.
15. Wonder why they feel like they're going crazy.


Dependency


Many codependents:
1. Don't feel happy, content, or peaceful with themselves.
2. Look for happiness outside themselves.
3. Latch onto whoever or whatever they think can provide happiness.
4. Feel terribly threatened by the loss of any thing or person they think proves their happiness.
5. Didn't feel love and approval from their parents.
6. Don't love themselves.
7. Believe other people can't or don't love them.
8. Desperately seek love and approval.
9. Often seek love from people incapable of loving.
10. Believe other people are never there for them.
11. Equate love with pain.
12. Feel they need people more than they want them.
13. Try to prove they're good enough to be loved.
14. Don't take time to see if other people are good for them.
15. Worry whether other people love or like them.
16. Don't take time to figure out if they love or like other people.
17. Center their lives around other people.
18. Look for relationships to provide all their good feelings.
19. Lost interest in their own lives when they love.
20. Worry other people will leave them.
21. Don't believe they can take care of themselves.
22. Stay in relationships that don't work.
23. Tolerate abuse to keep people loving them.
24. Feel trapped in relationships.
25. Leave bad relationships and form new ones that don't work either.
26. Wonder if they will ever find love.


Poor Communication 

Codependents frequently:
1. Blame
2. Threaten
3. Coerce
4. Beg
5. Bribe
6. Advise
7. Don't say what they mean.
8. Don't mean what they say.
9. Don't know what they mean.
10. Don't take themselves seriously.
11. Think other people don't take the codependents seriously.
12. Take themselves too seriously.
13. Ask for what they want and need indirectly --- sighing, for example.
14. Find it difficult to get to the point.
15. Aren't sure what the point is.
16. Gauge their words carefully to achieve a desired effect.
17. Try to say what they think will please people.
18. Try to say what they think will provoke people.
19. Try to say what they hop will make people do what they want them to do.
20. Eliminate the word NO from their vocabulary.
21. Talk too much.
22. Talk about other people.
23. Avoid talking about themselves, their problems, feelings, and thoughts.
24. Say everything is their fault.
25. Say nothing is their fault.
26. Believe their opinions don't matter.
27. Want to express their opinions until they know other people's opinions.
28. Lie to protect and cover up for people they love.
29. Have a difficult time asserting their rights.
30. Have a difficult time expressing their emotions honestly, openly, and appropriately.
31. Think most of what they have to say is unimportant.
32. Begin to talk in Cynical, self-degrading, or hostile ways.
33. Apologize for bothering people.


Weak Boundaries


Codependents frequently:
1. Say they won't tolerate certain behaviors from other people.
2. Gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things they said they would never do.
3. Let others hurt them.
4. Keep letting others hurt them.
5. Wonder why they hurt so badly.
6. Complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there.
7. Finally get angry.
8. Become totally intolerant.


Lack of Trust


Codependents
1. Don't trust themselves.
2. Don't trust their feelings.
3. Don't trust their decisions.
4. Don't trust other people.
5. Try to trust untrustworthy people.
6. Think God has abandoned them.
7. Lose faith and trust in God.


Anger


Many Codependents:
1. Feel very scared, hurt, and angry
2. Live with people who are very scared, hurt, and angry.
3. Are afraid of their own anger.
4. Are frightened of other people's anger.
5. Think people will go away if anger enters the picture.
6. Feel controlled by other people's anger.
7. Repress their angry feelings.
8. Think other people make them feel angry.
9. Are afraid to make other people feel anger.
10. Cry a lot, get depressed, overact, get sick, do mean and nasty things to get even, act hostile, or have violent temper outbursts.
11. Punish other people for making the codependents angry.
12. Have been shamed for feeling angry.
13. Place guilt and shame on themselves for feeling angry.
14. Feel increasing amounts of anger, resentment, and bitterness.
15. Feel safer with their anger than hurt feelings.
16. Wonder if they'll ever not be angry.


Sex Problems.


Some codependents:
1. Are caretakers in the bedroom.
2. Have sex when they don't want to.
3. Have sex when they'd rather be held, nurtured, and loved.
4. Try to have sex when they're angry or hurt.
5. Refuse to enjoy sex because they're so angry at their partner
6. Are afraid of losing control.
7. Have a difficult time asking for what they need in bed.
8. Withdraw emotionally from their partner.
9. Feel sexual revulsion toward their partner.
10. Don't talk about it.
11. Force themselves to have sex, anyway.
12. Reduce sex to a technical act.
13. Wonder why they don't enjoy sex.
14. Lose interest in sex.
15. Make up reasons to abstain.
16. Wish their sex partner would die, go away, or sense the codependent's feelings.
17. Have strong sexual fantasies about other people.
18. Consider or have an extramarital affair.


Miscellaneous


Codependents tend to:
1. Be extremely responsible.
2. Be extremely irresponsible.
3. Become martyrs, sacrificing their happiness and that of others for causes that don't require sacrifice.
4. Find it difficult to feel close to people.
5. Find it difficult to have fun and be spontaneous.
6. Have an overall passive response to codependency -- crying, hurt, helplessness.
7. Have an overall aggressive response to codependency -- violence, anger, dominance.
8. Combine passive and aggressive responses.
9. Vacillate in decisions and emotions.
10. Laugh when they feel like crying.
11. Stay loyal to their compulsions and people even when it hurts.
12. Be ashamed about family, personal, or relationship problems.
13. Be confused about the nature of the problem.
14. Cover up, lie, and protect the problem.
15. Not seek help because they tell themselves the problem isn't bad enough, or they aren't important enough.
16. Wonder why the problem doesn't go away.


Progressive


In the later stages of codependency, codependents may:
1. Feel lethargic.
2. Feel depressed.
3. Become withdrawn and isolated.
4. Experience a complete loss of daily routine and structure.
5. Abuse or neglect their children and other responsibilities.
6. Feel hopeless.
7. Begin to plan their escape from a relationship they feel trapped in.
8. Think about suicide.
9. Become violent.
10. Become seriously emotionally, mentally, or physically ill.
11. Experience an eating disorder (over- or under eating)
12. Become addicted to alcohol or other drugs.


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## Shaggy

This repentance and turn about is full of high emotion and instincts of faith just like you were working up to a coupe of weeks ago Gwen a bunch of us became concerned over and posted our worries over.

Now you are doing it again. Thorburn, I'm worried again because you are dealing with the very real long term, many men, betrayals by your wife who by all evidence is a 20 year serial cheater. She is either since the first DDay continued her affair with 2011 OM, or another guy.

Either way she's been living a double life for 20 years. You suspect she's a sex addict.

Addicts don't get "cured" by shedding a few tears and telling sone truths. 

Addicts do negotiate and resort to drama and admitting some things when they are cornered and feel they need to throw a Hail Mary to save their addiction.

Your wife just threw a Hail Mary and you caught it. But she is still the same person with the same addiction as before.

You can't have a marriage until the lies, the addiction to sex and the willingness to live a separate life where she has anal sex in the back of her car all come to an end for good.

You never had her take a polygraph before. You took her word and her tears and you failed to stop her. So once again you are now taking her word and her tears.

You want to R? Then have her
1.document in writing every affair she's had since you've Ben together.

2.Take a polygraph test

3. Have her share an edited version of her documented list of affairs with her entire family.

4. Seek treatment for sex addiction. She's an addict, meeting a guy for anal sex in the back of her car for hours is really out there even for cheaters.

5. Sell her car and get a subcompact.


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## BK23

Thorburn. You need to sit down with a psychiatrist. Not a pastor, not a therapist, not a friend. A Medical Doctor that specializes in disorders of the mind. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but, from where I'm sitting, you do not seem close to sane. Get yourself some help before it is too late.


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## turnera

Oh, ok. Wow. You are so upset about being called a codependent that you spend hours putting together 'proof' that you didn't cave when your wife snapped her fingers. 

My take is that losing her family upset you more than losing her, so you caved so you could get them back.


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## lordmayhem

BK23 said:


> Thorburn. You need to sit down with a psychiatrist. Not a pastor, not a therapist, not a friend. A Medical Doctor that specializes in disorders of the mind. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but, from where I'm sitting, you do not seem close to sane. Get yourself some help before it is too late.


That SHOULDN'T be a problem. If he's retired from the Guard and 50% disabled due to PTSD, he should be seeing a psychiatrist at the nearest VA hospital on a regular basis. But instead, he goes to the religious clergy.


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## Almostrecovered

if you don't believe that codependency is a real disorder/condition yet believe you will have a successful R then I have nothing left to say but good luck


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## Kasler

turnera said:


> Oh, ok. Wow. You are so upset about being called a codependent that you spend hours putting together 'proof' that you didn't cave when your wife snapped her fingers.
> 
> My take is that losing her family upset you more than losing her, so you caved so you could get them back.


I think the real problem here is he doesn't realize that more than one of those traits directly apply to him. 

Thorburn, I think you need to contact a psychiatrist, your state of mind right now does not seem well in any sense of the word.


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## aug

Thorburn,

I find your tolerance level impressive. This trait makes for a good counselor or pastor.

Unfortunately, it not good in a parent or a spouse -- in a "spare the rod, spoil the child" sense.

I think you easily enable or encourage your wife's misbehavior.


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## Shaggy

Btw. Thorburn, do understand we very much want you to be happy.


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## MAKINGSENSEOFIT

The only thing you can say is good luck and hopefully things work out. Personally I think you both need some significant professional help.


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## Thorburn

Yesterday I threatened the OM's employer and his pastor that if I did not get a response by 7 P.M. last night ( I had a list of demands) and if the OM did not confess to his wife everything there would be hel* to pay.

At 7 P.M. the OM called me I had a long talk with the OM. Nothing my wife had confessed to was contradicted. In 2011 they put together a story of having sex 4 times and no late nights. Some of you will remember that I was obsessed with two other dates and two times that they were out till almost 11 P.M. I had the proof and yet my wife denied and denied even up till 3 months ago.

My wife came clean on those dates and times and so did the OM. He told me they had a script and they kept to it, the same thing my wife told me.

The OM answered every question I had for him without hesitation. I asked him questions that I had not asked my wife and things I knew about and he answered them without lying.

The OM's wife left him and he wants her back. I talked to him about it and said your marriage may be over but I gave him advice.

i shared scripture with him, presented Christ to him and gave him two good counseling/treatment facilities that are not too far from his home. He did not want anything local, there was not anything good in his area anyway.

It was surreal to say the least. Not 15 minutes before he called I was still telling my wife that I am leaving to go to the dudes house and kill him and calling my wife a liar. She was trying to prove that it was this OM and not a bunch of other men and him. I went out to my truck to get the recorder my wife wanted to prove to me that it was this one OM and that is when he called. My wfie had just prayed for me to calm down.

First words out of his mouth was, "Mac, this is OM, I am sorry".

I can't explain what came over me. Compassion? I went into a mode of being Spirit led. The OM was hurting, sorry, and broken and he humbled himself. He was not defensive and he wrote down most of what I told him he needed to do. When I started to speak to him about what he needs to do to save his marriage he asked me to wait, he wants to get a pen.

I forgave him this morning and sent him a text stating so.


Some of you think I have lost it. No.

Read Jonah - he did not want Ninevah to repent and knew they would, ran away, then preached and they repented and he got mad about it.

Hebrews 4:13, “There is no creature hidden from His sight but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.” 
Romans 5:20 says, “Where sin abounded, grace abounded all the more.”


This is how we change (a, b, c)
Ephesians 4:22-24 
22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old [a]self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new *self, which [c]in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth


James 4:7-10 
7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

1 John 1:9 
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


I have preached this full time or part time for years. I have seen people change. My wife lied to me since at least 1999 and cheated on me. I believe she has changed.

1. Nothing she has told me has been contradicted.
2. Everything the OM has told me agrees with what my wife has said and all the proof that I had and which my wife was denying in the past was confirmed to be true and he confessed to it without hesitation (as did my wife).
3. She is going to go for treatment at one of the facilities I found.
4. She has shown me everything, computer, phone, etc. She has not to my knowledge hidden a thing. she did not have time to delete her phone or computer, it is all there and she handed it to me willingly.
5. She gave me her secret bank account with over $1000.00, I did not ask for it nor knew about it.
6. She told me she will not hide a thing.

Were there other men? Yes. No evidence of a hook up with the exception of one. They went out to dinner. I know the man from college. He is now a prominent theologian. He is an arrogant arse. Always has been. Did they have sex? She says no. I am not sure. Based upon the phone texts and emails there was no romantic dialog. She told me she was looking for a new husband because she knew I was going to D her. She said she wanted to find a new husband and also keep the OM. There was a fire man. Texts and emails. He ended it by ignoring my wife. Did the guy have a wife or GF who found the texts and ended it? I am not sure. There was no physical meeting but they were talking about it and planning to meet.

I now have almost $10,000 in the bank. I was facing bankrupcy at the beginning of March.

I followed the Spirit of Christ during this ordeal. Not perfectly and not understanding what was happening. If I have lost it mentally, if I am wrong in this then why do I feel so blessed at this time and why am I at peace.*


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## BK23

Best of luck Thorburn. I don't think anyone here can help you. Please at least consider talking to a neutral, secular, medically trained third party. I know you think you've got all the answers--especially with your background as a counselor, but the counselor who has himself for a patient has a fool for a counselor.


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## Kasler

Oh mac, oh. 

I think I've seen enough. I wish you luck mac. It will not be coming from your wife of that I am most sure, but I sincerely hope you find happiness in your life.


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## dscl

Thorburn,

I wish you well, I know the pain of a fake R first hand and I hope that is not the road you are getting on.

Take Care


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## bfree

Thorburn, what was up with the VAR conversation? If I recall correctly both you and another poster on TAM heard it and concluded that she was talking to a different man than the one from 2011. See to me that's actual hard evidence that there are holes in this story. There is no belief necessary. It is what it is. How is that explained?

I understand that it is your life and your marriage. But allow me to present this point for discussion. I don't know your wife. I don't love or hate your wife. In fact as I've followed this thread and your older one my feelings toward your wife can be summed up in one word. Pity. I am extremely pro reconciliation. I am not a licensed therapist or counselor but like you I have worked with men in a group setting with issues like dependency, substance abuse, addiction and relationship troubles. I would absolutely love to see you and your wife work out these issues and reconcile. But I'm not seeing it. I see a man who desperately wants to see it but as an objective observer I do not. I hope things work out for you but at this point I am very sad to say that I believe you are deceiving yourself once again. I wish you all the luck in the world because I think you'll need it.


----------



## Acabado

Is this facility run by real CSATs? Do they promore full, scheduled disclosure and random polys as many others?
Is she willing to back up this confession with a polygraph just now?
Is she willing to confess all her sexcapades since - at least- 1999 to her entire family? The secret phones, her secret back accounts, her lies, her justifications?
Do she agrees she has an addition? Did she try at any time to stop on her own? Has she offered more hidden info beyond the ongoing affair from 2011? Admited the facts she lied continusly (that wifi hotel episode)? Confirmed you were right all the times she gaslighted you?


----------



## SomedayDig

*From this...*



Thorburn said:


> Her (not clear) how do you want it.
> Him: Like last time
> Her: Back door, laughing
> Then her moaning and having an orgasm.



*To this...*



Thorburn said:


> We went home and my wife got her Bible was hugging me, praying for me and I was in darkness.



Shock and disbelief would be a polite way of describing what I'm thinking right now.

Really Thornburn? And I'm the "Reconciliation" poster child saying this. I think you're setting yourself up for yet another fall. But - oh, well...take care.


----------



## Shaggy

So she wanted to have a replacement husband fir you, but she was planning continuing to cheat even on the new guy with the OM?

That's frankly sick and evil.

So why would you think that she isn't going to keep having sex with the OM even if you take her back? Her loyalty to him is far greater than her loyalty to you.

What about her burner phone that you never found?

And how do you know his wife knows about it? Do you really believe his sob story about her leaving him?

You said he had to confess to her and that you wanted to meet with her. You got none of that, just him giving you a sob story and telling you only things you already knew.

Common Mac, you know better than to believe the lies of addicts and cheaters. You know the games and false promises they negotiate!

This OM is who your wife has given more loyalty and put herself right on the line for years now. Do you honestly believe she is now renouncing him for you?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

So she confessed and he backed it up. SO WHAT?! You are as big a fool as my ex husband, sorry to say. I dont think I can read this thread any more, I cannot support this.


----------



## Thorburn

bfree said:


> Thorburn, what was up with the VAR conversation? If I recall correctly both you and another poster on TAM heard it and concluded that she was talking to a different man than the one from 2011. See to me that's actual hard evidence that there are holes in this story. There is no belief necessary. It is what it is. How is that explained?
> 
> I understand that it is your life and your marriage. But allow me to present this point for discussion. I don't know your wife. I don't love or hate your wife. In fact as I've followed this thread and your older one my feelings toward your wife can be summed up in one word. Pity. I am extremely pro reconciliation. I am not a licensed therapist or counselor but like you I have worked with men in a group setting with issues like dependency, substance abuse, addiction and relationship troubles. I would absolutely love to see you and your wife work out these issues and reconcile. But I'm not seeing it. I see a man who desperately wants to see it but as an objective observer I do not. I hope things work out for you but at this point I am very sad to say that I believe you are deceiving yourself once again. I wish you all the luck in the world because I think you'll need it.


The person I talked with on the phone is the same voice on the VAR.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Oh, ok. Wow. You are so upset about being called a codependent that you spend hours putting together 'proof' that you didn't cave when your wife snapped her fingers.
> 
> My take is that losing her family upset you more than losing her, so you caved so you could get them back.


I am not interested in her family. I asked them to stay away from me.


----------



## Thorburn

lordmayhem said:


> That SHOULDN'T be a problem. If he's retired from the Guard and 50% disabled due to PTSD, he should be seeing a psychiatrist at the nearest VA hospital on a regular basis. But instead, he goes to the religious clergy.


I actually do see a psychiatrist regularly and she is a good one. Saw her in Feb. after discovery and will see her again soon. We talked about the newest events and it was relatively close to following this d-day. I did end up in the E.R. prior to seeing her and that is one of the reasons I saw her. I saw a psychiatrist that night in the E.R. He was worthless. Did not want to hear my story at all just wanted me to tell him what my symtoms were so he could treat them.


----------



## turnera

I don't understand why you took her back. I don't see anything in your long schpiel that says she had a real come to Jesus moment - she was caught and she picked the best floating log to hang onto. What makes you think she even CARES about you?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

turnera said:


> I don't understand why you took her back. I don't see anything in your long schpiel that says she had a real come to Jesus moment - she was caught and she picked the best floating log to hang onto. What makes you think she even CARES about you?


You are looking at this from the wrong angle. It has become clear that Thorburn has been looking for an excuse to forgive his wife and reconcile. The actions he has taken (which are co-dependent) were a delaying action to keep in contact with her. She finally acted in a way that he can grasp onto and proclaim that she has turned the corner. He caught what he wanted.

Thorburn - I wish you luck, I truly hope I (and others) are wrong as where this is headed.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



turnera said:


> I don't understand why you took her back. I don't see anything in your long schpiel that says she had a real come to Jesus moment - she was caught and she picked the best floating log to hang onto. What makes you think she even CARES about you?


Not to defend her but I'm sure she does care about Thorburn, at least in some way shape or form. And I also realize that her breakdown and confession had a huge impact on a Thorburn since it seems he has been waiting for something like this for such a long time. But I agree that she hasn't shown by actions that she is ready to atone for what she has done. Nor do I see her doing anything that she hasn't already done before. Things that led to a failure of the marriage and at least one false reconciliation.


----------



## MattMatt

So, if Thorburn doesn't do like he is told, we aren't going to be his friends anymore? :wtf:

I doubt I could be able to reconcile with his wife. But then I am not married to her so I have nothing invested in her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScubaSteve61

MattMatt said:


> So, if Thorburn doesn't do like he is told, we aren't going to be his friend anymore? :wtf:
> 
> I doubt I could be able to reconcile with his wife. But then I an not married to her so I have nothing invested in her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very good post. He's got years of his life, 2 grown sons... That's a very large emotional investment. I honestly can't say that I would do differently.


----------



## turnera

Perhaps. But he COULD be approaching this in a much smarter way.


----------



## Sweet Tea

Thorburn,

As an Elder of my Church I pray that the voice you are hearing and responding to is indeed that of Christ and not of Satan trying to take you down with the wife and OM. Satan will use the Word and use your vulnerability to take you to a dark, dark, place.

No matter what you decide I will continue to pray for you and your family.

Please Thor be careful.


----------



## bfree

Thorburn said:


> I am not interested in her family. I asked them to stay away from me.


Good. Hopefully this entire experience has been an eye opener for you vis-a-vis her family. You don't need their c0ckamamie behavior in your life regardless of whether you reconcile or divorce.


----------



## alte Dame

Some people go their entire lives loving people who are damaged and damaging. The heart seems to want what it wants. And I guess, who's to say that they don't have the right of it for themselves? I don't know.

You love your W and want not to have to divorce her. I understand that. For me, if you can accept the reality of her lying and infidelity, if you don't delude yourself about that and still want to make your life with her, that's your choice. You basically choose to love her, broken pieces and all. 

We all wish you the best, I'm sure. I know I do. So, keep the faith and the best of luck.


----------



## MAKINGSENSEOFIT

Well you know what they say. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. Good luck with whatever this is.


----------



## Shaggy

D or R , frankly I leave tar decision entirely to Thorburn where it belongs. However as part of his support system we would be utterly failing him if we didn't critically advise him and warn him when we can see him taking actions that undermines himself.

Case in point : he has asked for specific things,but keeps settling for a less than what he asks for compromise. That is exactly what caught him the last time.

He settled for I don't know and don't remember from his wife. She stared him down, she played him, she stuck to her story long enough and he caved. Meanwhile she never for a minute stopped cheating on him. The whole R was fake and a planned conspiracy by his wife and the OM from day one.

This time is feeling entirely the same. The OM and his wife have got their stories synced up tight. He asked for the OM and the OMW to meet with him and his WW for full on disclosure. What he got instead was the OM in the phone giving him a sob story about his much he wants to fix the marriage and his sorry he is.

Gee, apparently not sorry enough not to me lying to Mac for the last few years, and not sorry enough to stop having sex with Mac's wife.

Both the OM and Mac's WW have been each others primary lover since at least 2011. 2012, 2013. 

What I don't get is if the OMs wife really did leave and Thorburn was divorcing his WW, then why didn't the two soul mates move off together ? It's what they've made the #1 priority in their lives these last few years. So why not run off together now?

It's surely not that they feel guilt or remorse. That would have stopped them back on DDay 1.

Mac you can forgive all you want, but as you learned in DDay 1 and false R 1, it won't stop them from continuing to lie and betray.

So other than her tears and his sob story, what really is different this time?

I suggest you follow through this time on

1. Polygraph.
2. You talking F2F with OMW 
3. Your wife accepting 7x24 continuous tracking and loss of her secrets and freedom
4. She gives up her burner phone. You still haven't found it. You know she had it on DDay 1.
5. A strong Postnuptual.
6. Her confession to family and preachers that you were right all along.


----------



## bfree

Thorburn said:


> The person I talked with on the phone is the same voice on the VAR.


Ok so now you believe that this is the voice you heard on the VAR. So how does that explain the context of the conversation? I remember that this recording convinced you beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was at least a second man. Now you are convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is the same man. I'm just trying to ground you a little and remind you of your own words and thoughts from not that long ago. I don't want you to get too carried away by emotion and lose all sense of logic and thoughtfulness.


----------



## tom67

Shaggy said:


> D or R , frankly I leave tar decision entirely to Thorburn where it belongs. However as part of his support system we would be utterly failing him if we didn't critically advise him and warn him when we can see him taking actions that undermines himself.
> 
> Case in point : he has asked for specific things,but keeps settling for a less than what he asks for compromise. That is exactly what caught him the last time.
> 
> He settled for I don't know and don't remember from his wife. She stared him down, she played him, she stuck to her story long enough and he caved. Meanwhile she never for a minute stopped cheating on him. The whole R was fake and a planned conspiracy by his wife and the OM from day one.
> 
> This time is feeling entirely the same. The OM and his wife have got their stories synced up tight. He asked for the OM and the OMW to meet with him and his WW for full on disclosure. What he got instead was the OM in the phone giving him a sob story about his much he wants to fix the marriage and his sorry he is.
> 
> Gee, apparently not sorry enough not to me lying to Mac for the last few years, and not sorry enough to stop having sex with Mac's wife.
> 
> Both the OM and Mac's WW have been each others primary lover since at least 2011. 2012, 2013.
> 
> What I don't get is if the OMs wife really did leave and Thorburn was divorcing his WW, then why didn't the two soul mates move off together ? It's what they've made the #1 priority in their lives these last few years. So why not run off together now?
> 
> It's surely not that they feel guilt or remorse. That would have stopped them back on DDay 1.
> 
> Mac you can forgive all you want, but as you learned in DDay 1 and false R 1, it won't stop them from continuing to lie and betray.
> 
> So other than her tears and his sob story, what really is different this time?
> 
> I suggest you follow through this time on
> 
> 1. Polygraph.
> 2. You talking F2F with OMW
> 3. Your wife accepting 7x24 continuous tracking and loss of her secrets and freedom
> 4. She gives up her burner phone. You still haven't found it. You know she had it on DDay 1.
> 5. A strong Postnuptual.
> 6. Her confession to family and preachers that you were right all along.


Please read the above 3 times.:iagree::iagree:


----------



## bfree

MattMatt said:


> So, if Thorburn doesn't do like he us told, we aren't going to be his friend anymore?
> 
> I doubt I could be able to reconcile with his wife. But then I am not married to her so I have nothing invested in her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I will not abandon Thorburn regardless of what he decides to do. I just want him to really think about things and not let his emotions rule the day.


----------



## Shaggy

Mac as an ex military man you know that failure to follow through to the close of battle is often the difference between true success and just putting off the real battle for another day.

On DDay 1, you pulled your tanks back and agreed to peace before you have eon victory.

So now 2 years later you are back doing it again. If you don't want yet another false R, you need to see it through and disarm your enemy.


----------



## SomedayDig

Shaggy said:


> Mac as an ex military man you know that failure to follow through to the close of battle is often the difference between true success and just putting off the real battle for another day.
> 
> On DDay 1, you pulled your tanks back and agreed to peace before you have eon victory.
> 
> So now 2 years later you are back doing it again. If you don't want yet another false R, you need to see it through and disarm your enemy.


Hmmm...sounds like France.





sorry - sorry - it's a little American military humor. My apologies to any Froggies out there.



Seriously, Thorn...do you not see it or are you in a fog of your own? I totally understand loving your wife. Jeeze, do I get that. However, I can sit here and type and tell you that if Regret and I had a Dday 2...there would be no going back. It would be done. Period. You gave her a chance. She failed.


----------



## Tony55

I thought the originally suspected OM was 47, the guy in the tape sounds young (20's), Thorburn, are you *sure* the guy you talked to sounds like the guy in the recording? Did you ask him specifics about that day in the car?

T


----------



## Decorum

A man came to work in a company I was employed at. He was newly out of prison for his involvement in child pornography. Nobody wanted to work with him including me. 

He was claiming a conversion to Christ. 

As a Christian I felt in an awkward spot, but I related to him as a Christian brother.

People questioned me about it, I told them, “Well, he is out of prison, and I suppose it is better that he is in striving to conform to Christ’s teachings than not, but make no mistake he is a danger to any children he comes in contact with”.

One day he asked me what I thought, I said that he could not be trusted around children ever again, and if I had any inkling that he was I would report him myself. 

He objected that he was forgiven, I looked him in the eyes (to observe his response) and said “Yes but I do not know what temptations you face.”

He had no response, his eyes widened and I knew he was not expecting the simple truth. 

He thought I had to wear blinders for “Christ” sake and pretend all was well. It’s facing the simple truth that sets you free, and gives you discernment.

His words were stuck in his throat, because he knew he was broken and weak, and he was rug sweeping (not being honest with himself).

Your wife may be sincere and indeed may "walk" and "continue in the light" to face the simple truth, or not, that remains to be seen. 

She will give an account for the choices she makes, as will we all. Some people start well but don’t finish well, that is on them. 

God is no respecter of persons He gives us all the grace we need to choose the next right step, we will live with our choices.

Your wife is still broken and weak in the same ways, don’t rug sweep that. Her repentance may be genuine and God’s grace effective, but she will still choose “In real time” how she will walk.

This man’s counselor/Probation Officer was a Christian, he told this man that he was concerned because he was basing his recovery on his newfound Christianity, so the danger was that when his spiritual life was good so would be his recovery, but when it suffered, his perversion would resurface and he could be enslaved again.

One problem with mastering ones subject matter (Be it Christianity or counseling) is that its puts you in the upper percentile of people versed in it, there is just a small percent who know more than you do.

I have known some very simple believers who possessed amazing insight and discernment.

We ignore them at our own peril!

...........................

What happened to this man? 
He met and moved in with a mentally challenged young woman (she was maybe 20 yrs old) and moved to a different state to work with the same company. 

"The non Christians in the department came to me and said "he is a total hypocrite, when you are NOT around he talks completely differently, very crude (He discusses his sex with his GF in detail with others) but he cleans it up for you"

(Btw I never ask people to clean up anything for me, I let people be themselves, my Dad swore like a sailor (no offense swabby's) so not much shocks me.)

His Christian testimony, loud though it was, became shipwrecked.


Perhaps like Hosea you will care for a wayward woman, and perhaps she will find her way back, just don't wear blinders.

Take care!


----------



## MattMatt

2asdf2 said:


> I am sorry that such phraseology was used. I am sorry ThorB has to read disrespectful language.


:iagree:


----------



## MattMatt

Tony55 said:


> I thought the originally suspected OM was 47, the guy in the tape sounds young (20's), Thorburn, are you *sure* the guy you talked to sounds like the guy in the recording? Did you ask him specifics about that day in the car?
> 
> T


I always sound younger on recordings. About half my actual age, fwiw.


----------



## Kasler

Someone get Bandit here please. 

Thorburn, you are making the same exact mistake as last time. 

What did you get?

WW and OM synching their stories and then parroting back to you sh!t that you already knew. Thats nothing

A promise to go to a facility? Sure, lets see how that turns out. Until then, nothing

1,000 of money she was hiding from you? focus on the last three words of that sentence. 

A computer full of evidence that she had ample time to alter over the past few months, that just confirms what you already know? Once again, thats nothing. 

Thorburn, all you have gotten is a load of tears, don't let that be enough to destroy the man that was slowly but surely being tempered by this experience. People told you countless times she would do this, and she finally did. Damn near ALL WSs do this at some point in time. They throw out a fishing line and see what they can get. Looks like you bit and she caught herself a mackerel in this case. 

Thorburn, you are your own worst enemy here, you have to realize that.


----------



## SomedayDig

Kasler said:


> Someone get Bandit here please.
> 
> Thorburn, you are making the same exact mistake as last time.
> 
> What did you get?
> 
> WW and OM synching their stories and then parroting back to you sh!t that you already knew. Thats nothing
> 
> A promise to go to a facility? Sure, lets see how that turns out. Until then, nothing
> 
> 1,000 of money she was hiding from you? focus on the last three words of that sentence.
> 
> A computer full of evidence that she had ample time to alter over the past few months, that just confirms what you already know? Once again, thats nothing.
> 
> Thorburn, all you have gotten is a load of tears, don't let that be enough to destroy the man that was slowly but surely being tempered by this experience. People told you countless times she would do this, and she finally did. Damn near ALL WSs do this at some point in time. They throw out a fishing line and see what they can get. Looks like you bit and she caught herself a mackerel in this case.
> 
> *Thorburn, you are your own worst enemy here, you have to realize that*.


Yes...but now he has Jesus and $10,000 in the bank...

Thorn ~ c'mon, man. I think you need to get your head out of your thread and read a slew of others here in CWI who have gone through pretty much the same. Ohhh...I know, you've gone through the mill.

So have they. And in the end...they went down the other road. Smartly so.


----------



## Curse of Millhaven

I don’t think you have “lost it” and truthfully I am impressed with your capacity for forgiveness; it is beyond anything of which I would be capable. Again, many here are giving you excellent advice to simply slow down, take some time (ideally by yourself), evaluate everything very carefully from as objective a standpoint as possible, and formulate a comprehensive plan for moving forward. What Decorum said above is absolutely true…it is possible to forgive and begin anew but that does not mean you should be blind to all that has happened before or could conceivably happen again in the near future. You can maintain a hopeful spirit while being practical and realistic in expectations. 

I respect your religious convictions even though I do not completely share them, but from my perspective I do not see a miraculous conversion in your wife and I do not believe she has repented. I was disheartened and disappointed (to put it mildly) when I read that she was still seeking to meet random men online and justified her sick behavior by blaming you…having to find a replacement husband because you were divorcing her! The twisted self-serving logic! Do you not see how she views you...as some completely superfluous side show in the sick circus of her life? Apparently the OM was the main event as he was going to remain a constant attraction. This infuriates me for you! Surely a part of you recognizes the need for pragmatism and caution in moving forward with this woman. Please take your time and think it all through very carefully. See that psychiatrist you mentioned, read through the wise suggestions you have received here, reflect on everything you know to be true. You owe it to yourself to at least consider the possibility that this miraculous turn of events is not all it seems.

There is a joke about addicts that I am sure you have heard and sadly it is apropos here…”How can you tell if an addict is lying…? Their lips are moving.” She is a master manipulator and liar…she only “came clean” because she was cornered and saw disclosure as her only option. You let her and her family know exactly what you needed to even begin to consider reconciliation in that email you sent to her brother. You claim she didn’t have time to delete emails and messages, but to me she has had plenty of time to prepare for this “revelation”. She has been thinking this whole time that you were not going to divorce her, but when you gave her your wedding ring and she saw that you were serious, she set her “stay of execution” plan into action. You had let her know in advance precisely what to do. 

I am not saying she will not truly repent and completely change after years (and I mean _years_) of intensive treatment and therapy. Anything in life is possible and I do believe people can change (not overnight, but after years of arduous toil). What I am saying is that I do not see a truly remorseful, repentant soul and I do not see how one thing has tangibly changed since last week other than a planned out confession to keep you in stasis. She’s kept you in this stagnate state for decades with her smoke and mirror deceptions. Please remember all that has gone before and consider it in moving forward. 

Everything I have said here again comes from a place of deep concern and empathy; I hope that you take it in the spirit that it was intended. I am a stranger to you, but I do truly care about what happens to you and you have my prayers and well wishes no matter the path you choose.


----------



## turnera

T, so what's going on now? What did you two decide to do? Who is where? What are your plans?


----------



## ing

I haven't posted on your thread since the start and I really have not been posting at all on TAM. Some form of victory there I think

Thor. You are just that. A warrior, a classic Alpha and the reason you are going through this again is because you want to win. 

You will too. Because you always do, don't you.

You will thrash all around you with wit, intelligence treachery and whatever other legal ,and the not so legal, methods you can muster. 

You would be a formidable opponent and one that I would not like to come up against... 

However you have not won. Not yet. A major battle is over ,but this is a long campaign and you are a long way from claiming victory.

As some of the older members here know after a short time being belted with the "TAM 4 x 2" my mind shifted.

By intercepting every email they sent, tracking and photographing them I was able to save myself more fake R than I can remember. I was relentless and accurate with my counter attacks. I had them believing that they were permanently followed [ they weren't. I was lying] I grew tired of the game though. It was exhausting and painful.

She organised MC promising it was over. I already knew that she and the OM had planned the responses, that she was to say 'this' and 'that' at the appropriate times. 

She was remorseful in counseling , she streamed snot and tears in remorse. She was totally and utterly believable. her plan went as expected until 20 mins into the session. 
After all that. I said. 
" Where are you going with him on Thursday" 
I already knew the answer because I was never asking a question unless I knew the answer.

There was an immediate switch to righteous indignation! Massive and vicious attacks on me for my lies and mistrust of her.
Even the counselor was on her side by now, this was no easy feat. She was tough. 
At this point I handed the counselor an email, her an email and said nothing.
There was silence and then the counselor said to her.
'Is this true?'
The response was not "yes" it was not "sorry" it was not tears.

Her eyes went stone cold and her mouth hardened for a moment and then she just sat staring at piece of paper. The attacks restarted but this time it was because I was invading her private life. 
At this point I had a massive anxiety attack and left the room.

You are at this point. Do not mistake it for the real thing. 

This came last week only after she realized I had a new job, had sold the family car and was considering moving in with my GF.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> D or R , frankly I leave tar decision entirely to Thorburn where it belongs. However as part of his support system we would be utterly failing him if we didn't critically advise him and warn him when we can see him taking actions that undermines himself.
> 
> Case in point : he has asked for specific things,but keeps settling for a less than what he asks for compromise. That is exactly what caught him the last time.
> 
> He settled for I don't know and don't remember from his wife. She stared him down, she played him, she stuck to her story long enough and he caved. Meanwhile she never for a minute stopped cheating on him. The whole R was fake and a planned conspiracy by his wife and the OM from day one.
> 
> This time is feeling entirely the same. The OM and his wife have got their stories synced up tight. He asked for the OM and the OMW to meet with him and his WW for full on disclosure. What he got instead was the OM in the phone giving him a sob story about his much he wants to fix the marriage and his sorry he is.
> 
> Gee, apparently not sorry enough not to me lying to Mac for the last few years, and not sorry enough to stop having sex with Mac's wife.
> 
> Both the OM and Mac's WW have been each others primary lover since at least 2011. 2012, 2013.
> 
> What I don't get is if the OMs wife really did leave and Thorburn was divorcing his WW, then why didn't the two soul mates move off together ? It's what they've made the #1 priority in their lives these last few years. So why not run off together now?
> 
> It's surely not that they feel guilt or remorse. That would have stopped them back on DDay 1.
> 
> Mac you can forgive all you want, but as you learned in DDay 1 and false R 1, it won't stop them from continuing to lie and betray.
> 
> So other than her tears and his sob story, what really is different this time?
> 
> I suggest you follow through this time on
> 
> 1. Polygraph.
> 2. You talking F2F with OMW
> 3. Your wife accepting 7x24 continuous tracking and loss of her secrets and freedom
> 4. She gives up her burner phone. You still haven't found it. You know she had it on DDay 1.
> 5. A strong Postnuptual.
> 6. Her confession to family and preachers that you were right all along.


1. Being scheduled without her knowledge.
2. will try to meet with the OMW.
3. Working on that. I will reactivate her old phone that I dropped from our service. Ironic most of her text messages up to the day I cut her off are still on the phone and I have it. I will add the GPS feature on it and it gives instanst tracking.
4. No burner phone. She states that she threw it away. I have the phone number, it was a trac phone and I am trying to find out if I can reactivate the number and get the phone numbers and text messages.
5. Postnups here in our state are not very strong. I worked with an attorney last year on this. I can do it but they don't always have teeth and there are horror stories here of postnups being thrown out during a D.
6. She told her younger brother most of it. I don't care about the rest of the family nor the pastor. She only met with him once and he is not worth the time. I did send him a text last night telling him that it is ironic that my wife's lover apologized to me and he won't.


----------



## Thorburn

bfree said:


> Ok so now you believe that this is the voice you heard on the VAR. So how does that explain the context of the conversation? I remember that this recording convinced you beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was at least a second man. Now you are convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is the same man. I'm just trying to ground you a little and remind you of your own words and thoughts from not that long ago. I don't want you to get too carried away by emotion and lose all sense of logic and thoughtfulness.


You are correct in the confusion. After spending time on the phone Monday and last night with the OM this is the same voice. He was raised Amish and he has the accent. I worked with Amish for years and you can't mistake that accent, I also grew up with "Dutch" folks. Back home where I grew up we had no Amish, (They have since moved into the area). We had a lot of "Dutch" speaking, non Amish, non Mennonite, non brethren in our area. We had the Mennonites and Brethrens and I went to school with some who spoke "Dutch". Most of the "Dutch" speaking folks who did not belong to these groups are dying off, since for the most part it is only spoken in these religious communities, where as before it was widespread, we have signs that read English Speaking Lutheran church, etc that are still up because there were quite a few German "Dutch" speaking churches in our area and those old signs are still there. Like I said, unless you belong to one of those religious communities the "Dutch" language is almost gone in the wider community. When I was younger there were quite a few of them around. When I worked as a chaplain in the 90's till early 2001 and I worked back home where I grew up, there were still some folks in the nursing home that spoke "Dutch" who did not belong to these groups but they were all in their 90's or older. So in the broader community it is basically gone. I have two uncles through marriage that are "Dutchy". They speak it but my aunts don't nor my cousins.

The confusion came when I listened to the recording the OM seemed not to know my wife very well. But I never listened to the whole thing. I just couldnot and still can't. I have just listened to bits and pieces. Well my wife on Sunday was trying to prove to me that this is the OM. She did. She remembered talking about something with the OM and I found it and it is him. Not based upon what my wife said but what the OM said. The OM stated that it is him on the recording. I asked him some questions that are recorded and only he and my wife would have known what was said. But his voice is the same one (not only by accent).

I will ask the OM's pastor to listen to a clear portion just to verify it.

Thanks for your pointers because as I wade through this, doing a complete reversal, it is not easy. I can't say I don't want to make the same mistake because I could very well be setting myself up. I know that.


----------



## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> I thought the originally suspected OM was 47, the guy in the tape sounds young (20's), Thorburn, are you *sure* the guy you talked to sounds like the guy in the recording? Did you ask him specifics about that day in the car?
> 
> T


He sounds like a kid. In fact last night he told me he feels like a "lost boy" . He is typically Amish. Not very well educated, immature. On cheaterville and to my wife I called him "Amishboy". It fits. His family, mother, brothers and sisters are all "Old Order", they shun electric stuff, have horse and buggies. He left the "Order" years ago with the blessing of the Bishop so he was not shunned. 

I am positive that this is the same person. My wife told me they had sex in the park across the street where he works (Ironically in the town of Intercourse). 

Also Tony you pointed out that my wife drove about 90 minutes that day. That is how long it would take to get there from our home to Intercourse. She also mentioned on the recording that "She would be back here tomorrow" to the OM due to her medical treatment. She gets treatment near his home and did the following day, I have the medical records to prove it. 

I doubt that from Friday till Monday that they communicated. under this assumption they did not have time to get their stories together. My threat on Monday got the OM to talk to me. They did have a story that they put together in 2011 and stuck to it till now and if they had another one this guy and my wife seem transparent. I asked the Om some questions last night and he did not hestitate to answer and I already knew the answer to one and he did not lie.

I asked about the computer and he told me they listened to music, like my wife said. He seemed sincere. 

He is a typical Amish person. When pushed they don't fight. They yeild. Don't buy the Amish mafia crap on T.V. it is not really based on truth. The Amish guy out in Ohio cut off beards. Wow, that is really violent. The Amish that get in the news are normally ones that are teenagers that have not joined the church yet. They go on Rumspringa where they party, buy cars and trucks and go wild at times. Then they settle down and join the church. It is this group (non church members) that can get into fights but even then it is rare. 

My youngest son worked for the Amish and learned the carpentry trade for several years. 

He told me that he is going to spend time with his mother, (his dad recently died), that she is a godly woman. I sent him materials that he printed off and thanked me for. He said they really spoke to him. He said he can't believe I am helping him and that he feels guilty and that this is not fair due to the pain he caused me. I told him I want his marriage to be healed, that he has caused enough pain and that he should feel guilty and no it is not fair but that is life. I said I should have killed you but I have Christ and that is who you need in your life. i said if you ever have contact with my wife it will get very ugly. He said he does not want to hear from her ever again.

He sound like a very contrite, broken, lost boy.


----------



## Shaggy

Thorburn. Her tellong every member of her family, with you present isn't because you give a rats ass about them.

It's 100% about her truly coming clean and exposing herself. They are her family, and she needs to face up to coming clean with them.

I think you also need to drive a hard permanent wedge between the two of them. They have been coconspiritors for a very very long time. I woud suggest that some kind of act of betrayal by her against him is needed. Perhaps a signed account of their affair and conspiracy that then gets shared with his family and friends? Something that will humiliate him and mske him hate her.. 

You haven't told us why the two of them aren't jumping st the chance to both be single and together. She was willing to have sex for hours with him in a cramed car. That's incredible uncomfortable, yet she did it for him. So why are they not using the Ds to get married?


See I don't think that this guy is out of your life, just like the last false R you lived.


----------



## turnera

Thorburn said:


> 5. Postnups here in our state are not very strong. I worked with an attorney last year on this. I can do it but they don't always have teeth and there are horror stories here of postnups being thrown out during a D.


So what? For a few hundred dollars, you have a mental battering ram to use against her to get her to think twice before cheating again; SHE may not know if it will hold up or not. And so what if it doesn't hold up? If it gets to that point that you two are in court again, the judge will SEE that you TRIED to get her to toe the line and she STILL chose to cheat again - won't look good on her.


----------



## turnera

Shaggy said:


> Thorburn. Her tellong every member of her family, with you present isn't because you give a rats ass about them.
> 
> It's 100% about her truly coming clean and exposing herself. They are her family, and she needs to face up to coming clean with them.


Please T, if you do NOTHING else we advise, do this. If her family is that close-knit, her standing before them and apologizing is psychologically speaking ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL for her to have ANY hope of not cheating again. She NEEDS to see their faces, and she NEEDS to feel the shame of looking them in the face - THAT is how a cheater finds humility and decides not to risk that feeling again.


----------



## Acabado

And she still needs to come clean about "the rest"; I mean all the boundarie crossing since the beggining of your relationship. CSATs often prepare with clients full disclosures. It's a must. All in writing to realize the magnitude of her issues.

Remember she even made a pass to your sons's friend! (the disclosure must include this kind of crap too, it's not a minor incident, it was fishing for it, regardless this kid's response)

BTW I have little faith in "quick tratments" and facilities, she requires years long specialized and regular threapy possibly plus 12 steps continued meetings, books, etc.


----------



## turnera

Have you asked your son how he feels about letting her back in, given what she's done with his friends?


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Thorburn. Her tellong every member of her family, with you present isn't because you give a rats ass about them.
> 
> It's 100% about her truly coming clean and exposing herself. They are her family, and she needs to face up to coming clean with them.
> 
> I think you also need to drive a hard permanent wedge between the two of them. They have been coconspiritors for a very very long time. I woud suggest that some kind of act of betrayal by her against him is needed. Perhaps a signed account of their affair and conspiracy that then gets shared with his family and friends? Something that will humiliate him and mske him hate her..
> 
> You haven't told us why the two of them aren't jumping st the chance to both be single and together. She was willing to have sex for hours with him in a cramed car. That's incredible uncomfortable, yet she did it for him. So why are they not using the Ds to get married?
> 
> 
> See I don't think that this guy is out of your life, just like the last false R you lived.


I believe my wife will do anything I ask. She gave me her FB account and i am going through it right now. I did not think to ask her for her account information before today.

I am going to try to address this. I had to take my wife to the E.R. again last night and was there from 8:30 P.M. till 4:00 A.M. and only had an hours sleep last night. 

1. I get the family issue but I am finished with them. I will have to give this thought. I need help on this one folks. I really don't care to be around her family ever again. How do you propose she does this? I would want to be there to hear it. Does having her call each one make sense?

2. I talked to the Om last night and he told me that he would not be able to handle it if my wife contacted him that he would slip up again. At least I am getting honesty. I am not sure how to do this. Making him hate her. She still has love for him, she told me that but it is not as intense but it is still there. I don't think an act of betrayal will work. She could run back to him and say my husband made me do it. Not sure what to do here.

3. It was not a crammed car. It was an SUV, plenty of room in the back with the seats down. 

4. My wife never planned on leaving me. He did not plan on leaving his family. They talked about it. My wife said it would not have worked. She just wanted to remain married and be with the Om from time to time. In the OM's culture his family would not tolerate it and they would have shunned him. His wife's family I am not sure. I know them only from looking at their FB info. They are Christians but I don't know how they would react. Not sure on this one. The OM texted me and said his wife wants him to delete his phone. I hope to be able to talk to her. Him deleting his phone will not stop a thing it takes more than that. I just texted him and asked him to ask his wife to call me.

5.


----------



## Tony55

So, if reconciliation is in the cards then so be it, but a few words of advice...


Understand you'll never really get over what she's done, you need to be prepared to deal with it internally and indefinitely.
Don't make her life a living hell because of what she's done or you'll just increase an already high likelihood that she'll do it again.
Ease up a little on the religious perspective, not everything needs to be looked at through the lens of Jesus and the Bible, (and quoting both too often can actually drive people away from you).
Keep some distance between yourself and her family; they don't need to know everything, always.
Look hard at yourself and make an effort to be more interesting and exciting (not easy, but doable).
Don't kiss her ass, but don't ignore her needs.
Don't expect her to kiss your ass.
Don't whine if you feel neglected, don't use words like lonely when you want attention, it will just make the neglect worse (or the perception of neglect).

You know the rest. Transparency, etc, etc.

T


----------



## Shaggy

Have you wife make a video confession on a webcam or cellphone and record it. Send it to the family.

Short of her wearing an ankle bracelet and being on camera I really don't see how you are going keep them apart. The depth of deceit is just too deep between them.

You'd have to move across the country to put some serious distance between them.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> He sound like a very contrite, broken, lost boy.


Who was having anal sex with your wife. 

So now you have decided to become a counselor to the poor, pitiful OM? 

Hmm. 

Hey...I have an idea! Go buy a third house!


----------



## PastOM

bandit.45 said:


> Who was having anal sex with your wife.
> 
> So now you have decided to become a counselor to the poor, pitiful OM?
> 
> Hmm.
> 
> Hey...I have an idea! Go buy a third house!


Anal sex or no, it can be devastating for the OM too. I think the best way forward if for OP to make it very clear that there will be no further contact with him or WS. 

I could not bear the thought of being without my AP - and was devastated. Having said that, the minute she chose to be with her H, that was it - I couldn't bear the thought of being second to another man even more.

There seems to be too much communication here. OP needs to cut off all communication with OM.


----------



## PastOM

Thorburn said:


> ...
> 2. I talked to the Om last night and he told me that he would not be able to handle it if my wife contacted him that he would slip up again. At least I am getting honesty. I am not sure how to do this. Making him hate her. She still has love for him, she told me that but it is not as intense but it is still there. I don't think an act of betrayal will work. She could run back to him and say my husband made me do it. Not sure what to do here.
> 
> ...


There should be no contact with him period. I think as well intentioned as you may be, there is a powerful bond at work here. Honestly, in my case, just after d-day I would have loved contact with my AP (WW) ... anything, even her husband. 

I got to the point of throwing my iPhone into a lake behind my house to force myself not to contact her / him / anyone who would listen! These were the hardest days for me as the OM - it was hell. I don't know what would have happened if the BH had contacted me, but I am sure that it would have made my decision to NC much harder, not easier.

Take it from me - anything you say, do, or attempt with OM will be merely read as that sweet contact with the situation that he longs for. Your wife probably does think that she love him, and these feelings are not likely dissipate anytime soon if you maintain contact with OM "on her behalf."

Be clear with everyone - NC means NC. This extends to OM his family (except for exposing) and joint friends. You will keep the fires burning bright WHATEVER you do if it involves any contact between your family and OM's family.

Sorry for your situation. 
Good luck.


----------



## turnera

Thorburn said:


> 1. I get the family issue but I am finished with them. I will have to give this thought. I need help on this one folks. I really don't care to be around her family ever again. How do you propose she does this? I would want to be there to hear it. Does having her call each one make sense?


Of course not. So just because you are 'done with them,' you aren't willing to go through a few hours of being in their presence, to watch her apologize? I call foul.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> So what? For a few hundred dollars, you have a mental battering ram to use against her to get her to think twice before cheating again; SHE may not know if it will hold up or not. And so what if it doesn't hold up? If it gets to that point that you two are in court again, the judge will SEE that you TRIED to get her to toe the line and she STILL chose to cheat again - won't look good on her.


Thanks. I needed this.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Of course not. So just because you are 'done with them,' you aren't willing to go through a few hours of being in their presence, to watch her apologize? I call foul.


Again thanks. This is what I need to hear.


----------



## Thorburn

Acabado said:


> And she still needs to come clean about "the rest"; I mean all the boundarie crossing since the beggining of your relationship. CSATs often prepare with clients full disclosures. It's a must. All in writing to realize the magnitude of her issues.
> 
> Remember she even made a pass to your sons's friend! (the disclosure must include this kind of crap too, it's not a minor incident, it was fishing for it, regardless this kid's response)
> 
> BTW I have little faith in "quick tratments" and facilities, she requires years long specialized and regular threapy possibly plus 12 steps continued meetings, books, etc.


I believe you are correct. The 12 steps and having someone to hold her accountable should be part of her treatment.

I got more answers today. Searching her email account and FB. What she told me seems to be the truth. Her other email accounts that I knew she had were shut down quickly and seemed not to be used. She explained that to me and it did not make sense at first but I was able to confirm her answer.

There were more lies from the pastor to her. They were keeping things secret. Ha, yet he could blab about me. He kept telling her that this was all my fault.

i called my wife a few minutes ago and she said the pastor was wrong.


----------



## turnera

T, I want your marriage to succeed. But you are dealing with a mentally deficient child, who needs to be managed for the time being, until such time as her CONSISTENT long-term therapy starts reshaping her brain. You have SO many strikes against this working out that I shudder to think of all that could go wrong, but if you're determined, you will have to put on the 'mean old bad guy' hat, as well as the 'you have absolutely one final chance before I kick you to the curb' hat. 

If you can't do that, you have no business doing this.


----------



## turnera

The pastor figured she would be easy to get into bed.


----------



## Topical storm

I knew it.....

I knew thorburn was not going to get a divorce. I don't know why people are surprised he took his wife back so quickly. He telegraphed everything that he was going to do her, including filing for divorce. He never detached. They would go on trips together, they would have conversations and work on wooden tables together. She even slept in his bed. He even said that if he files it might take two years for it to be final, thus he was waiting for her to come clean. Thorburn never wanted a divorce. He only wanted a confession. He tried to use his in laws to get her to confess, not so he could get a 60/40 in divorce results. They used him as much as he used them and things didn't work out. When thorburn wrote the long email to the in laws he gave an out clause to them stating that there was a possiblity that he takes her back if she does this, this or that. I saw it all along. Thorburn is NOT going to divorce his wife and doesn't want to divorce his wife no matter how many guys she sleeps with. He is attached to her because he feels that he is responsible for her.

Thorburn, needs broken people in his life in order to function. Some people are built that way and that is okay. I'm not sure if Thorburn is making a mistake because he knows the consequences and outcomes as he has seen it before from being a counselor. I look at Thorburn's life and I think of the book Hosea in the Bible. His wife Gomer had many daliances with many men and still Hosea stayed with the Lord, prayed and took her back. God restored Hosea and his wife. I think we can all learn a lesson from Thorburn, that no matter how many times someone steps out on you, you are willing to take them back with open arms and love just how Hosea did and how God has done when we sin.


----------



## MattMatt

Topical storm said:


> I knew it.....
> 
> I knew thorburn was not going to get a divorce. I don't know why people are surprised he took his wife back so quickly. He telegraphed everything that he was going to do her, including filing for divorce. He never detached. They would go on trips together, they would have conversations and work on wooden tables together. She even slept in his bed. He even said that if he files it might take two years for it to be final, thus he was waiting for her to come clean. Thorburn never wanted a divorce. He only wanted a confession. He tried to use his in laws to get her to confess, not so he could get a 60/40 in divorce results. They used him as much as he used them and things didn't work out. When thorburn wrote the long email to the in laws he gave an out clause to them stating that there was a possiblity that he takes her back if she does this, this or that. I saw it all along. Thorburn is NOT going to divorce his wife and doesn't want to divorce his wife no matter how many guys she sleeps with. He is attached to her because he feels that he is responsible for her.
> 
> *Thorburn, needs broken people in his life in order to function. *Some people are built that way and that is okay. I'm not sure if Thorburn is making a mistake because he knows the consequences and outcomes as he has seen it before from being a counselor. I look at Thorburn's life and I think of the book Hosea in the Bible. His wife Gomer had many daliances with many men and still Hosea stayed with the Lord, prayed and took her back. God restored Hosea and his wife. I think we can all learn a lesson from Thorburn, that no matter how many times someone steps out on you, you are willing to take them back with open arms and love just how Hosea did and how God has done when we sin.


Or he could just love his wife no matter how broken and messed up she is?:scratchhead:


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



turnera said:


> The pastor figured she would be easy to get into bed.


Oh wow


----------



## MattMatt

bfree said:


> Oh wow


Sadly it does happen.

Gee. I wonder if the pastor was giving deliberately tainted advice to Thorburn's wife in order to put a wedge between them?:scratchhead:


----------



## thatbpguy

Thorburn said:


> Again thanks. This is what I need to hear.


You said in one of today's posts your betraying wife states she still has love for him. That tells me she has neither legitimate respect or love for you. 

I am not anti reconcilliation, but I only approve of it in cases where the betrayer is willing to live a life befitting of a person genuinely and fully contrite for what they have done. Your wife sounds like mine did. She would tell me, "Because I was in love with him, it made it less wrong"- or words to that effect. That should have told me a reconcilliation would never work out as she had no genuine remorse and that what she did was 110% wrong- and then some. 

You're in the same boat.

I will also say this. Betrayers like that have a 99% chance of "reoffending". She will always carry a special place in her heart for him. How can she be committed to you when she feels like that? She should see herself and what she did as more worthless than a POS. That's a foundation that can be built upon.

So I wish you well, but at some point in time you have to come to grips with the *fact* that your wife fell out of love and respect for you and in love with another man. And now she is willing to reconcile as she pretty much has no where else to call home.

So I hope the best for you, I really do. But at the same time I have great sympathy for you as to what most likely lies ahead.


----------



## seasalt

Will your next thread be "I'm back again and it gets worser?"

Take a step back to take the measure of her remorse and if possible enjoy some good feelings about yourself that she and her actions have denied you. Let her know you're amenable to a reconciliation but it will be at your pace and under your direction. What's your hurry?

Seasalt


----------



## MattMatt

seasalt said:


> Will your next thread be "I'm back again and it gets worser?"
> 
> Take a step back to take the measure of her remorse and if possible enjoy some good feelings about yourself that she and her actions have denied you. Let her know you're amenable to a reconciliation but it will be at your pace and under your direction. What's your hurry?
> 
> Seasalt


I don't think he is hurrying...


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

SomedayDig said:


> *From this...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *To this...*


You know what is even more interesting? Darkness/Evil helped the reconciliation happen.

Wrap your mind around that and you'll understand why I despise organized religion. Nope that has NOTHING to do with god, faith or religious beliefs which I do not despise..


Good luck to you Thorburn.


----------



## bandit.45

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You know what is even more interesting? Darkness/Evil helped the reconciliation happen.
> 
> Wrap your mind around that and you'll understand why I despise organized religion. Nope that has NOTHING to do with god, faith or religious beliefs which I do not despise..
> 
> 
> Good luck to you Thorburn.


Agree.

There is a reason I am a recovering Baptist and no longer follow organized religion. Churchifieds like Thorburn wallow in misery because they think they have a mandate from God to do so.

I don't think Jesus would have required Thorburn to stay married to a wife who repeatedly cheats on him after repeated forgiveness on his part. In fact I think Jesus would say "Thorburn, you are a glutton for punishment. Why are you doing this?"

Thorburn it's your wife your life. Frankly I think you are being stupid. I've been with you on this ride since last year, and all I can say is you have not learned a thing. You keep sticking your hand on the hot stove hoping that if you do it enough it will stop burning. SHE IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE.

I'm your friend and I only want the best for you, but I'm not going to sit here and watch you self-destruct. I can't do it. I can't stomach watching a good man flush his life down a toilet in the name of God.

I won't be coming back to this thread. Good luck.


----------



## MAKINGSENSEOFIT

The sad part is that these stories get to the point where you don't know what the person it looking for. They're not looking for advice that's for sure.


----------



## Kasler

Thorburn I think you should still detach from her at least somewhat emotionally. You seem dead set on R, nothing anyone says can change that, but I think that if you go into this R, put everything you still have in you on the line and she cheats again, thats gonna be the nail in your coffin man. 

I've seen people standing on cliffs, I was walked off a cliff myself by my best friend while sitting in a locked bathroom with a full tube of sleeping pills

And frankly, this near manic and absolute faith and hope in R is scaring me as its reminiscent of my own feelings just before I went off the deep end. 

Do what you must, but promise to think of yourself and your sons at least as much as you think of her.

Thats all I have to say, goodluck Thorburn.


----------



## Shaggy

Thorburn, choose you path carefully because your sons are watching you and learning from you.

And I strongly believe they will not emotionally survive dday 3.


@pastOM and your river of tears for the OMd feelings, frankly -blank-him and the horse he rode in on. The guy is human scum who has forever harmed thorburn and thorburns sons. The gut deserves to suffer for the pain he has deliberately caused so that he could stick his thing in thorburns WW's butt.

He's downright nasty, and the cold detachment she cheats with shows a moral hole in her.

Sorry, thorburn, but it takes more than snot, tears, and a little confession to she remorse.


----------



## survivorwife

Shaggy said:


> Thorburn, choose you path carefully because your sons are watching you and learning from you.
> 
> And I strongly believe they will not emotionally survive dday 3.
> 
> 
> @pastOM and your river of tears for the OMd feelings, frankly -blank-him and the horse he rode in on. The guy is human scum who has forever harmed thorburn and thorburns sons. The gut deserves to suffer for the pain he has deliberately caused so that he could stick his thing in thorburns WW's butt.
> 
> He's downright nasty, and the cold detachment she cheats with shows a moral hole in her.
> 
> *Sorry, thorburn, but it takes more than snot, tears, and a little confession to show remorse*.


:iagree:

I lived with an emotionally abusive, narcissist spouse who believed that he was always right and I was always wrong. He was quick tempered and I learned rather quickly the skills of survival. Oh yes, I could indeed bring on the snot and tears at a moments notice and pretend remorse for some petty infraction (or nothing at all) that triggered such temper tantrums. The truth is, while I was "performing" so that he would back down, I was coldly assessing my options and calculating what I would do when "the dust settled" and he was calm and satisfied that he "won". This is not the stuff that a good marriage is based on.

Upon discovering that my STBXH was having affairs, I coldly and calmly calculated the things I had to do to end this marriage and, with steely determination, was able to exit with my dignity intact . My sons were finally grown and moved out, so their well being was no longer my chief concern. I will never go back to that.

The truth is not in the "performance" (the snot and tears). The truth is not in the words, for in my situation I would say what he wanted to hear at the time, and go about my business later.

As for the OM, I agree with Shaggy here. Both of them are "performing" for their own survival. It isn't sincere. It is now being forced upon them due to the circumstances. Once everything "blows over", they will continue the A and laugh that they fooled the OP yet again. I know the act. I've done it. (Not under the same circumstances, but under the same fear).

And the sons, what lesson do they learn from all this? Forgiveness does not include consequences? One big happy family now? There is something to be said for self-respect and dignity as a parent that children look to. My sons are in awe of my ability to perform under pressure, to calculate accurately the outcome, to proceed with confidence and, most important, to survive. They support my decision to end the marriage as they too where in the same household as I. I have their love and respect because I was true to the circumstances. I held to the truth of it all. Will the OP's children be able to see this R as a stand for the truth, or simply a retreat from reality.


----------



## thatbpguy

Shaggy said:


> Thorburn, choose you path carefully because your sons are watching you and learning from you.
> 
> And I strongly believe they will not emotionally survive dday 3.
> 
> 
> @pastOM and your river of tears for the OMd feelings, frankly -blank-him and the horse he rode in on. The guy is human scum who has forever harmed thorburn and thorburns sons. The gut deserves to suffer for the pain he has deliberately caused so that he could stick his thing in thorburns WW's butt.
> 
> He's downright nasty, and the cold detachment she cheats with shows a moral hole in her.
> 
> *Sorry, thorburn, but it takes more than snot, tears, and a little confession to she remorse.*



I, too, fully agree.


----------



## SomedayDig

Shaggy said:


> Sorry, thorburn, but it takes more than snot, tears, and a little confession to she remorse.


Well, there was a Bible, so....

Thorn ~ sorry, man. We'll see ya soon.


----------



## Shaggy

TB, please don't get me wrong about your R. I'm not. Trying to derail it. In fact I do hope you can pull this one out of the fire, but as you saw last time you gotta deal with all the embers or it will fire back up.

Yes, I mixed my metaphors.

One thing I notice I'd that your wife's memory has gotten so much better. She can remember details of a conversation she had over a 3 hour period while she was meeting the OM for sex back in Feb.

The "I don't remember" lie about anything I would say is off the table for good.

Get that long term timeline from her. Who, when, what - go all the way back to her first time cheating. It will hurt you, but sll the lies need to be exposed once and for all.


----------



## aug

Shaggy said:


> *Get that long term timeline from her.* Who, when, what - go all the way back to her first time cheating. It will hurt you, but sll the lies need to be exposed once and for all.



The lies and cheating, you will fine, go back 3 decades...


----------



## WorkingOnMe

bandit.45 said:


> Who was having anal sex with your wife.
> 
> So now you have decided to become a counselor to the poor, pitiful OM?
> 
> Hmm.
> 
> Hey...I have an idea! Go buy a third house!


She had anal with him? T does she have anal with you?


----------



## SomedayDig

WorkingOnMe said:


> *She had anal with him?* T does she have anal with you?


Page 3 post #40...it's in the transcript....

I'll be curious the answer to question #2 you asked as well.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> The pastor figured she would be easy to get into bed.


The thing with the pastor is very strange. I have read the emails between him and my wife yesterday. I was the one who sought out this pastor based on my odest BIL's recommendation. I am the one who was attending his church. I am the one who met with him on three separate occasions. He was very upfront with me (so I thought). He told me to write a letter to your wife stating that I am going to divorce you, divorce her and follow through. Very clear advice. In all our meeting at church, many text messages, he never once told me that he changed his mind. Even when the text messages got nasty and I told him over and over again that you told me to divorce my wife, he never wrote back nor told me on the phone that he changed his mind.

Yet when his wife and him met with my wife and then followed up with numerous emails back and forth it was all secret. He told my wife what I said. He never once shared with me anything other then they had a "productive meeting" and my wife shows a repentant heart. He said to her in the emails that her estrangement from me was all my fault that i caused her to run to other men and that he will deal with me. He told my wife not to share anything with me. Yet he shared in the emails everything I shared with him, except the porn issue. He stated that I never brought it up. Then when I confronted him he wrote her and said that Mac did discuss it once but it was as an aside. My porn use was and is not that bad. I can't tell you the last time I looked at porn. I can't. When I met with the pastor three times we talked about it. i went into details of when and how much. When we met those three times, on two occasions it was only to discuss my porn usage over the years, that is all we talked about, we did not discuss my wife at all on two visits.

I don't get it. Reading the emails from him is scary. Him telling my wife to keep everything secret. Him lying about our conversations. Him sharing all my conversations I had with him to my wife and he not sharing a thing with me about their secret eamils, telephone conversations, etc. I dealt with a pastor in 1999 from this same denomination who blamed me for everything. The pastor and the elders did not nor her family held her to any account, none. She committed adultery, was having internet sex with 4 or 5 men around the world. I gave them the proof and I mean I had a keylogger that recorded everything. Yet I was the bad guy because my wife said she saw me looking at porn and that is why she did it. I submitted to this pastor and those elders. I drank the cool aide. I had to go for counseling, my wife did not go nor was required to go. My counselor in 1999 told me that he does not understand why I am there. He said your porn use is not that bad. He told me your wife is messed up and she needs counseling. I was in such a state that I did not know what to do and just did what I was told. I remember telling my wife what the counselor said and she said "well that is just his opinion, you know what the pastor said, this is all your fault". 

My wife has shared with me several times over the past several days that she was not repentant, ever till now, she turned from God and explained why. Dealing with our special needs son, people telling her that she should "put him away", that if they had him for a week "they could straighten him out", the death of her father, financial strain, the Gulf War saying she thought I would go and be killed ( I remember her glued to the T.V. in 1990 crying all the time saying, "you are going to go and get yourself killed", yet I told her my unit will not go, we sent units but our Division HQ would not be called up) , etc. her middle sister validated her complaint about me looking at porn. Her middle sister was the only one and that is what my wife used. No other complaint. Not all the other excuses she used on me over the years. Not, Mac had E.D. the first night he came back from Iraq, (by the way everything works fine now), not the death of her parents, not the fact that she gave "God the finger when her mother died", not the suicide attempt of our oldest son (she did not care and had sex with the OM for the first time two days after commiting our son because she told me they planned this weeks in advance and nothing was going to stop her from having fun and excitement not even the suicide attempt of our son), and I could go on and on.

My wife was messed up big time and still is. She is now dealing with it. How far she will go with this is up to her. Since 1999 she never came clean on anything. She seems to have come clean now. After reading the emails and her FB yesterday I have found that everything she has told me thus far is the truth. I do not believe her about 1999, she is still claiming no sex. I don't believe her. What she spoke about on the recording and I have not listened to it all nor most of it, she does mention the A to the OM, but there is no mention of sex. 

There are three questions that I want from the OM that I did not think to ask. I hope to get those questions answered, it has to do with phone numbers, email accounts, and any other method of communication over the past years. My wife gave me all this but I want to verify the truth of it. I also want to meet with the OMW with a third party, to share notes and to discuss ways to keep the the OM and my wfie apart. 

My wife talked to a Focus on the Family counselor yesterday. It was as I expected, a very qualified person who gave her excellent advice and good referrals. The one my wife picked is the one I was hoping she would choose. I did not tell her and here she picked the very same person I was hoping she would go to. My wife read, highlighted the long article I gave her on what a betrayed spouse goes through and how to act and respond to the betrayed spouse. I gave her this in early 2012. She read it and ignored it last year. I gave it to her again the other day and I see that she has highlighted sections of it and she told me she gets it now. 

Here is my plan:

1. How her start treatment, get involved in a 12 step program, and have an accountability person who will share with me if they think my wife is crossing the line. 
2. Once I feel comfortable that most of her issues have been dealth with, we will start couples therapy. i do not want to spend time dealing with her issues in couples therapy, I want most of them addressed before we start couples therapy. I have selected a very good credentialed therapist. She has theological training (like me) and advanced sex therapy and counseling education. She is German (like my wife's deceased mother) and is very good.
3. i will follow through with the poly and post-nup.
4. I will put the D on hold, but everything is in place.
5. She is the process of placing our picture on her Facebook today. After a week it will be shut down. We will then share my FB account. The FB I have from her from last year will be the same, our picture will be posted and it will be shut down next week. All her friends will be communicating on my FB and mine alone.
6. I have asked my wife to sever all ties with her friends that she has hooked up with over the past two years. No explanation, no contact. She lied to them and the fact that she will be on my FB will say it all. I do not feel the need to embassrass her by her telling these friends more. If her friends want to contact her via my FB all I asked her to do is tell them that my husband will see this and tell them she lied and she is being completely open but does not feel the need to go into details.
7. GPS. I will activate her phone that she had on my account with my son's number. He broke his phone and I am still paying for his account. The phone will have have the GPS activated and she will be tracked. No turning off the phone ever. If I call her she will answer the phone. No placing the phone in her car and saying she forgot it. 
8. No communication with her friends via email or phone. These are all friends that she has not talked to in years and some for over 30 years. I told her they are now dead. you did not need them for years you do not need them now.
9. Her family. I will ask her in my presence to call them all. Explain what she did. I told her other then her younger brother I am done with her family. I don't want contact, don't want them around the house and if she decides to meet up with them it will be on her time not mine. She admitted that she put them above me and she said she will no longer do it. I told her your family is so emeshed that if one eats beans the other one farts and I am done with being involved with them.
10. her car (our car) will have to go. Will work on that. I want it crushed.


how to go for a time have a client coming in.

Some of you think I have lost it. I understand. I worked with psychiatrists for many years. The reality is that half of them are nuts. When we were interviewing psychiatrists at my last job I had to set up the interviews with the cheif psychiatris at the hospital. He would come out of the interviews and tell me I will not hire that one he/she is nuts. Happened more times hehen I can count.

My behavior and actions may seem strange. i get where you would see that. I think I am totally sane and if you do not understand the spiritual dimension and where I get my grounding it will never make sense to you. I see genuiene change in my wife for the first time ever. I am not moving forward in the marriage out of total blindness. My good friend that I have had for over 20 years is piss*d at me. He told me to D my wife last year and says I am a fool. He went through a nasty D. I think if he could have found forgiveness he would not be bitter and he has been in ministry for years. His relationship with his second wife (i know her) is very cold due to his mistrust. Not of her but of what he went through years ago. He focuses on his son. 

I suspect that our marriage will work out and that her cheating days are over. I may be wrong. Right now everything is out in the open. Not one thing she has told me has been proven false. I am not interested in her words alone, but her words and her actions.


----------



## karole

Good luck to you TB, I really do hope things work out for you the way you want.

What do you plan to do about that so-called pastor?


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> I think I am totally sane and if you do not understand the spiritual dimension and where I get my grounding it will never make sense to you.


Heed my advice, keep your religion closer to the vest, don't impose it too much on others, it will not serve your core agenda to do so and may in fact work against you.

Believe me when I say this, most of who you interact with are not devout in their religious beliefs; a Bible verse does not a Christian make.

T


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> Not one thing she has told me, *in the last week*, has been proven false. I am not interested in her words alone, but her *newest changed* words and her actions.


I added the bold.

As a writer and rhetoric researcher, what you are leaving out is telling. You are now rewriting your recent history. I will be praying for you to succeed and will be leaving your thread because I think you are in for a bigger disappointment.

Bigger? How is that possible? You end up completely broken and or dead. I've seen it happen and refuse to watch it occur again.

Once again, I hope things work out for you.


----------



## aug

I suppose the mind movies, hearing her having sex, knowing she had many men, her ability to lie and cheat, etc, all these are acceptable.

I wonder what this all mean?

I wonder why you are both punishing each other?


----------



## turnera

Thorburn said:


> if you do not understand the spiritual dimension and where I get my grounding it will never make sense to you.


What I understand about your spiritual dimension is that you have consistently submitted to and/or chosen spiritual 'mentors' (pastors, religion-based therapists, etc.) over people more professionally trained to handle the GIGANTIC problem your wife has and EVERY time, they have done you more damage than good.

You'll go to your deathbed in the firm belief that your religion would never let you down, it was just bad apples, but your life will have been irrevocably messed up from them nonetheless. When you could have chosen to take a less religious-centric approach and gotten TWO possible methods and been able to choose the wiser.

Whatever. I hope it works out for you. I give it two months before she starts sneaking and lying, because this arrangement you describe will be too strict for her (and then she'll start shifting the blame onto you), but I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## kingsfan

I read the original post and the first few pages, and this thread spoke to me. Thorburn's wife sounded just like my ex-wife, someone who looked so sweet and innocent to everyone else, so much so that no one would have guessed the truth.

My ex commited multiple affairs. Mostly EA's, but I strongly suspect PA's as well. And I do mean multiple. the last time I discovered what she was up to, she was engaging approximately 12 men all at the same time. E-mailing them one right after the next, essentially copy/pasting what she was saying to one to all of them. It was like form-letter affairs.

It took 10 years, but I left her. I was reading this thread, almost like it was a replay of my life 5+ years ago.

Then I got what happened a few days ago and I wanted to vomit. One snot-filled sobfest and the walls came tumbling down. 

Oh Thorburn, I pull for you and I pray for you now.

Do yourself a favor. Go back and reread what you have written in this thread. All of it. From day one. Read all of the heartbreak you pointed out that your wife has caused you. From forcing you to change your career in 184, to as much as 14 years of possible continuous sexual affairs with other men, to an almost endless string of lies, to a very stubborn and vengeful anger-filled past 11 weeks where she refused to backdown in the face of the most obvious proof. 

She has put you through so much for so long. Since at least 1984. That is 29 years. That is three decades of heartache, pain and sorrow. And it took right to the point where you had to threaten divorce for 11 weeks, set up a VAR, threaten to break up the family, nearly have her own family, including her own children, turn their backs on her, and spend all that time refusing to backdown and give into her lies before she finally confessed.

She is what my ex-wife was and still is; someone who can not accept responsiblity. Someone who is never wrong. Even if she would say she was wrong, she'd say so so she could get what she wanted.

Do you know how much my ex-wife pleaded for me to come back? She begged me. She offered me a blank check on everything, from having a beer (which I wasn't 'allowed' to do by her) to as much sex as I wanted (she pretty much cut off our sex life, likely because she was getting it elsewhere). Why? Not because she was sorry for what she had done. No, she wanted me back because I was her paycheck. I was what kept a roof over her head, gas in the car and food in our mouths.

Why has your wife changed? Has she changed because she's sorry? Or has she changed because she's now working hard hours for little pay? Or because she very well have lost her family because they want nothing to do with her and you are the only way she can get them back, especially your children? Or because the OM isn't going to give her a fantasy life she was dreaming of? Or because the fire man she wanted to date wouldn't have anything to do with her? Or because she's realizing the only man that doesn't want to just use her for sex is you?

I understand the urge to run back. I did it myself so many times that I honestly can't remember, and if I did I wouldn't even say for shame and fear of the amount of flak I'd get here. I went back so many times it should have been criminal, simply so they'd lock me up and remove me from her. It is a form of addiction on our part, and a form of abuse on our partners part. Your wife isn't dumb, she knows she's caused you pain and hurt in the past, but as you said, she just can't help herself. She WILL do it again. Maybe not for a few months, or even a few years, but she WILL do it again.

You yourself agreed that she is one of the most convincing liars there is. You don't think she could be (IE is) telling you only what you need to hear? She's not tellng you everything, and she very well could be adding to it to fit what it is you have thrown at her, simply to make it sound like she's not hiding anything. 

She has so very much to lose that she'll say anything. And she has said anything in the past. She has done nothing to show repentance, has thrown your good name under the bus for years to everyone from strangers to lovers to family, refuses to seek help for her issues, has never demonstrated any intenstinal fortitude towards working towards improving the marriage, blames you for everything and has done all of this for years or decades. How does a one day sobfest and a few conversations with the OM -who btw has a lot to gain from all of this as well, either by fixing his own marriage or by staying in the good graces of your wife in case things don't work out with you and her- overcome all of that?

Reread this thread. Show this thread to one of your coworkers. Go see one of your coworkers even. Even try to analyze what you have written in this thread from a counsellors point of view. Would you honestly recommend to reconcil, or even that reconciliation is a good idea?

And no, as one believer in Jesus and God to another, I don't think you are being guided on this. I think the overwhelming feeling of security and peace that comes with remaining in the status quo, because you know and understand it and are afraid of what change can bring, is what is giving you that sense of piece and joy you are feeling now. It will be temporary.

I think you are just afraid of the future Thorburn, and view the future, and most change in general, as a cup half empty standpoint. You only see what you would be losing. Don't do that. There is just as much to gain and a world of opportunities out there. Simply lifting the fears of adultery from your life can do so very much for you, your life and your soul. Don't let that fear of the change and aloneness (which is temporary, you will find someone), nor the desire for a woman's touch (sexual or otherwise) sway you now. Be strong Thorburn. You are in my prayers.


----------



## kingsfan

I'd also like to add that it was just a few hours after your post about your wife's admission in the car, and then subseuently you contacting/being contacted by the OM that I started reading this thread. It may even have been that very post that bumped it to the top of this main page so that it caught my attention.

As someone that has gone through a very painful affair at the hands of my ex-wife, repeatedly, I rarely come into the CWI forum. It sparks to many memories. You can review my posting history if you like (you may not like the topics I talk about so much as it's mainly sexually related, lol). Your thread title was what was showing for this entire forum when I was on the main page of TAM and I felt compelled to click on it and read it. Do to it's leangth (and I only read mainly what you wrote, not everyone's replies) it took me this long to get to the end.

Perhaps God was drawing my attention to it so I could comment with my own experiences for you?

The Lord does work in weird ways you know. 

Be strong, get out and find someone who wants to be with you for you. God bless you Thorburn, and all of those affected by these affairs. Even your wife. I don't think you should stay with her, but I do hope God stays with her.

Do what is best for you Thorburn. Get out.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

kingsfan said:


> I read the original post and the first few pages, and this thread spoke to me. Thorburn's wife sounded just like my ex-wife, someone who looked so sweet and innocent to everyone else, so much so that no one would have guessed the truth.
> 
> My ex commited multiple affairs. Mostly EA's, but I strongly suspect PA's as well. And I do mean multiple. the last time I discovered what she was up to, she was engaging approximately 12 men all at the same time. E-mailing them one right after the next, essentially copy/pasting what she was saying to one to all of them. It was like form-letter affairs.
> 
> It took 10 years, but I left her. I was reading this thread, almost like it was a replay of my life 5+ years ago.
> 
> Then I got what happened a few days ago and I wanted to vomit. One snot-filled sobfest and the walls came tumbling down.
> 
> Oh Thorburn, I pull for you and I pray for you now.
> 
> Do yourself a favor. Go back and reread what you have written in this thread. All of it. From day one. Read all of the heartbreak you pointed out that your wife has caused you. From forcing you to change your career in 184, to as much as 14 years of possible continuous sexual affairs with other men, to an almost endless string of lies, to a very stubborn and vengeful anger-filled past 11 weeks where she refused to backdown in the face of the most obvious proof.
> 
> She has put you through so much for so long. Since at least 1984. That is 29 years. That is three decades of heartache, pain and sorrow. And it took right to the point where you had to threaten divorce for 11 weeks, set up a VAR, threaten to break up the family, nearly have her own family, including her own children, turn their backs on her, and spend all that time refusing to backdown and give into her lies before she finally confessed.
> 
> She is what my ex-wife was and still is; someone who can not accept responsiblity. Someone who is never wrong. Even if she would say she was wrong, she'd say so so she could get what she wanted.
> 
> Do you know how much my ex-wife pleaded for me to come back? She begged me. She offered me a blank check on everything, from having a beer (which I wasn't 'allowed' to do by her) to as much sex as I wanted (she pretty much cut off our sex life, likely because she was getting it elsewhere). Why? Not because she was sorry for what she had done. No, she wanted me back because I was her paycheck. I was what kept a roof over her head, gas in the car and food in our mouths.
> 
> Why has your wife changed? Has she changed because she's sorry? Or has she changed because she's now working hard hours for little pay? Or because she very well have lost her family because they want nothing to do with her and you are the only way she can get them back, especially your children? Or because the OM isn't going to give her a fantasy life she was dreaming of? Or because the fire man she wanted to date wouldn't have anything to do with her? Or because she's realizing the only man that doesn't want to just use her for sex is you?
> 
> I understand the urge to run back. I did it myself so many times that I honestly can't remember, and if I did I wouldn't even say for shame and fear of the amount of flak I'd get here. I went back so many times it should have been criminal, simply so they'd lock me up and remove me from her. It is a form of addiction on our part, and a form of abuse on our partners part. Your wife isn't dumb, she knows she's caused you pain and hurt in the past, but as you said, she just can't help herself. She WILL do it again. Maybe not for a few months, or even a few years, but she WILL do it again.
> 
> You yourself agreed that she is one of the most convincing liars there is. You don't think she could be (IE is) telling you only what you need to hear? She's not tellng you everything, and she very well could be adding to it to fit what it is you have thrown at her, simply to make it sound like she's not hiding anything.
> 
> She has so very much to lose that she'll say anything. And she has said anything in the past. She has done nothing to show repentance, has thrown your good name under the bus for years to everyone from strangers to lovers to family, refuses to seek help for her issues, has never demonstrated any intenstinal fortitude towards working towards improving the marriage, blames you for everything and has done all of this for years or decades. How does a one day sobfest and a few conversations with the OM -who btw has a lot to gain from all of this as well, either by fixing his own marriage or by staying in the good graces of your wife in case things don't work out with you and her- overcome all of that?
> 
> Reread this thread. Show this thread to one of your coworkers. Go see one of your coworkers even. Even try to analyze what you have written in this thread from a counsellors point of view. Would you honestly recommend to reconcil, or even that reconciliation is a good idea?
> 
> And no, as one believer in Jesus and God to another, I don't think you are being guided on this. I think the overwhelming feeling of security and peace that comes with remaining in the status quo, because you know and understand it and are afraid of what change can bring, is what is giving you that sense of piece and joy you are feeling now. It will be temporary.
> 
> I think you are just afraid of the future Thorburn, and view the future, and most change in general, as a cup half empty standpoint. You only see what you would be losing. Don't do that. There is just as much to gain and a world of opportunities out there. Simply lifting the fears of adultery from your life can do so very much for you, your life and your soul. Don't let that fear of the change and aloneness (which is temporary, you will find someone), nor the desire for a woman's touch (sexual or otherwise) sway you now. Be strong Thorburn. You are in my prayers.


This is a brilliant, brilliant post! :smthumbup:

Yes, I got sucked back into this thread since I forgot to unsubscribe.  I think I hate this so much because it triggers me so badly.


----------



## CantSitStill

I think it would be wiser for you to do as Rookie did, divorce her. Give it two years and see if her changes are real. I would not jump into trust that quickly as you have already done in the past.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> TB, please don't get me wrong about your R. I'm not. Trying to derail it. In fact I do hope you can pull this one out of the fire, but as you saw last time you gotta deal with all the embers or it will fire back up.
> 
> Yes, I mixed my metaphors.
> 
> One thing I notice I'd that your wife's memory has gotten so much better. She can remember details of a conversation she had over a 3 hour period while she was meeting the OM for sex back in Feb.
> 
> The "I don't remember" lie about anything I would say is off the table for good.
> 
> Get that long term timeline from her. Who, when, what - go all the way back to her first time cheating. It will hurt you, but sll the lies need to be exposed once and for all.


She had me fooled for years since 2009 about her memory issues. Don't know why she started it then. The stress of me being deployed? Not sure. She would be driving and forget where we were. It was weird. My gut always told me that it was not real. Then she really used it hard. She could not remember things. I remember one time I was talking about her (our car) and how we bought it. As I was relating the story she looked at me and said what are you talking about? We bought the car with cash in Florida. I knew a dealer down there who took us to a big car auction. You had to be a dealer to get in. We found one and I remember paying $18,000.00 cash for it, it was a great deal. We took the car to my BIL's and my wife and youngest son flew down a month later and drove it home. She told me she did not remember it. A few minutes later she stated that it is all coming back. It was just weird.

Yet in the past year all the VAR's recorded her knowing stuff that she said she told me she did not remember.

I believe it was an act. But why did it start in 2009? By what I know she had the A's in 1999. None till 2010 (that I know about). Yes there is the time in 2008 and 2009 that her family suspected her of cheating on me when I was in Iraq, but other than my son's friend making a statement that my wife made him feel strange and he felt she was trying to seduce him, there is nothing to prove that she did other then suspicions. My neighbor suspected my wife of cheating on me with a German boy around 1996 and 1997 as did my one neice. But other then him being in the house when I was gone I have no other proof. My wife denies cheating on me with him. Yes he was in the house but he helped build it and he did work for the contractor and her statement was that he was over from time to time to do work on things. This does make sense but it does not. 


I am asking her questions that hurt like hel*. And I do agree that the memory issue was a ruse.


----------



## Shaggy

TB,

Demand today while she is in a open and telling mood:

Time line from her back to 1998 - all men, all locations, all details 
Tell her it will be asked on the poly.


----------



## Acabado

So does she admit she was gaslighting you with the memory issues all the time?
Before this recent February-May fiasco I remember you was still stuck in a particular odd night where she aparently conatcted OM at an hotel. She always denied, arguing memory problems too. Does she remember now?
Tell her to google "Gaslighting", to read a few entries.

Just a little detail... what happend with the affair car blanket?

Why did she kept going at OM while let you get financialy tangled with this new house?


----------



## MattMatt

Acabado said:


> So does she admit she was gaslighting you with the memory issues all the time?
> Before this recent February-May fiasco I remember you was still stuck in a particular odd night where she aparently conatcted OM at an hotel. She always denied, arguing memory problems too. Does she remember now?
> Tell her to google "Gaslighting", to read a few entries.
> 
> Just a little detail... what happend with the affair car blanket?
> 
> Why did she kept going at OM while let you get financialy tangled with this new house?


Is she gaslighting herself?:scratchhead:


----------



## SomedayDig

MattMatt said:


> Is she gaslighting herself?:scratchhead:


Damn good point MM. Regret admits now that she did this and has since been able to recall everything in detail and has stopped lying not just to me...but herself!


----------



## turnera

fwiw, I have extremely bad memory, and I'm not gaslighting anything. I talked the other day about wanting to take DD to Grand Canyon, and DH said we'd already been. Say what? He SWEARS we've been there, and I said I think I would know if I'd been to the Grand Canyon. But given my memory, I'm not about to bet on it.


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## Machiavelli

Topical storm said:


> I look at Thorburn's life and I think of the book Hosea in the Bible. His wife Gomer had many daliances with many men and still Hosea stayed with the Lord, prayed and took her back. God restored Hosea and his wife. I think we can all learn a lesson from Thorburn, that no matter how many times someone steps out on you, you are willing to take them back with open arms and love just how Hosea did and how God has done when we sin.


Actually, Hosea did what he did because God gave him a direct order to do so. This was meant to be a warning to Israel and Judah for their idolatry (whøredoms) with the false gods of the surrounding countries. God portrayed himself as a man with two wives (Israel and Judah). Of course, in the end God wrote out a bill of divorcement from Israel and Israel passed off the stage of history as the Ten Lost Tribes. Hosea has nothing to do with Thorburn.


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## Tony55

When you talk to the OMW, try to slip in a question about the refrigerator in the garage, it could be anything, like, what color is it? If she replies they don't have a fridge in the garage then we know her husband is not the man in the car. The man in the car made a comment about going out to his garage to get a drink from the fridge.

T


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## CantSitStill

As for my memory...I tend to have a long term memory, I remember things and details from my childhood but my short term memory sucks. Calvin reminds me of hurtful things I've said to him and I honestly don't remember but I do believe him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karole

How are you TB?


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## The bishop

I am sorry, but any cheater spouse is very lucky to have you. No way she gives that up. Your WW is a very experienced serial cheater that not only loves that lifestyle but needs that lifestyle. You can't divorce her, she knows it, and she knows what to do to prevent it. 

You can't divorce her because she won't allow you too... It is against her best interest.


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## Thorburn

My work computer got hit with a nasty virus on Thursday. Just got a replacement computer today. I reported it first thing on Firday and left work after an hour telling everyone I was sick ( I was so upset about her lying about FB the night before I thought I was going to crack up). Ironically, I got the virus from looking at pictures on Yahoo Images of the time I served in Iraq and I was clicking on pictures of our units that I served with at that time. So iraq still suc*s as it infected my work computer.

I spoke to the OM several times last week. I first asked him questions that I knew the answers. He answered them without hesitation and correctly. I then asked him questions that I did not know the answers. He answered them promtly and I believe truthfully. I ended talking to him on Thursday and he kept apologizing to me.

As far as the OMW. I gave her an invitation to talk to me with a thrid party present and have not heard back. 

On Thursday my wife and I were talking and she lied to me for the first time (that I am aware) since last Saturday. I triggered big time. I asked her if she communicated with the OM on her new FB, the one she started in February. She said no. I opened up her FB and showed her where she sent him a smiley face. She tried to say she did not communicate with the OM via FB. I know this is a minor detail but I got mad. I asked her six times and she finally said, I see your point, I did not see it as communicating, he never replied and I did not send him anything else (I was able to verify that). The OM did tell me that he did not use FB much and that they only communicated via FB back in 2011. I have been able to verify all that. But I triggered. That is why I left work early on Friday. 

I have to admit that I got a few beers on my way home on Friday (OK more than a few) and arrived home drunk Friday morning. When I pulled into the driveway (my son and wife did not know I was coming home) they both came running out to greet me. I said I am drunk, because you lied. My wife took me by the hand and took me into the garage and we sat down and talked for hours. She kept apologizing to me. She said, I understand that any lie, no matter how small will trigger you and she said this is all her fault. She then explained a lot more about her A and answered every question. She never once blamed me. She has not blamed me at all. She said she blamed me for everything to her friends and family and it was just an excuse.

She did ask me that in the future if I have a question (like the one about FB) that I give her more time to answer it. She said she does not want a blow up like on Thursday night, which resulted in me getting drunk. She said, she caused all this and she wants to fix it. 

There is a lot of stuff that has transpired since last week. Other than the FB question I have not found her lying to me. It has been brutal some of the stuff she has shared with me, details, etc.

She did ask me to give her time to give a "full" accounting of everything. She said she is writing it all down and does not want to leave anything out. She said I do not want you to get mad if I leave something out, so she is asking for time to write it all down. I did tell her that I have been tired of asking questions since the beginning of time and all I got was lies, half-truths, etc and will not go through that again. 

The two dates in 2011 and the two late nights in 2011 that I was obsessed with since that time, she told me about those times and dates and stated why even when I showed her the proof she went into a "I don't remember mode". I may have mentioned this before, but the OM and her had a story and they did not want to change it and it did not include those dates and times. 

Last night I brought in all the files I had since 2010. Phone logs, emails, etc. I must have had a foot or more of files. I had them at a secure location and brought them home. I went over a few items (high lights) and my wife stood there and cried saying how sorry she was at the pain she has caused me. She took me into the bedroom and put her arms around me and put her head on my shoulder and cried saying over and over again how sorry she was at the pain she has caused me, for over an hour.

We spent part of the weekend In Delaware. I triggered having sex. She told me that everytime they met they had sex two to three times. Don't ask what came over me but I wanted to do it two to three times. I still have it in me without meds. During the second go around I thought of the recording and triggered. I got mad, got dressed and left for 1/2 hour. Came back in and my wife was sobbing saying this is all her fault. She said I don't want to experience that again can you tell me what you were feeling? I explained to her what I was thinking and what triggered this. I told her I wanted to prove something and triggered. She told me that I am all that she needs and ever wants in her life and told me over and over again how sorry she is.

There is a lot more I could write but she seems sincere.

I am skeptical.


My wife went to work today and I have a GPS on her phone. Her work location is not perfect in that when she is in the salon her phone does not pick up a signal. But I can track her otherwise. Right now she is leaving work and is on her way home. My phone did the same thing when I worked at the hospital years ago. I could not get a signal in my office. I think I will get a GPS on her car as well. Not perfect but it will give me some relief.

My wife has been texting my youngest son about once a day or so and he will not respond to her. I had a talk with him about this and he said he is not ready to talk to his mother. I told him to take his time and don't rush it. My wife is anxious to renew her relationship with him and I told her to let him decide when he is ready.

My wife and I are sharing my FB. I got everything I needed from her two FB's. I messaged some of the guys. They thought I was her. My wife had a whole system of codes with these guys, some members of her family and her gf's. It was her way of making sure that if I hacked anything they would know it was her. She shared all this with me withuot me asking. Well two guys responded. The fireman who she has not texted or talked to in two months called her a "nut case" and said we have not talked in months and don't contact me again. They never met. They sent pictures back and forth, kids, dogs, of each other but nothing related to sex. The other guy seemed shocked that she contacted him and basically said it has been a while since we communicated "what's up". 

Get this. I thought she had connected with a bunch of her old GF's. Not the case. Her support group (so to speak) was three of our nieces and they basically told the family that they did not want to meet with her. 4 high school friends and one girl she was friends with growing up. All of them had very little contact with her over all. They were helping her with attorneys, giving her names, etc. They all bought her lie that she was being abused by me. Since she apologized only one has been in contact with her. I have seen the phone logs and text messages. She was calling me a fuc*ing A hole, etc. She did not delete anything, wanted me to see it all, just to show me she is telling the truth. Only one brother is talking to her and he is not saying much to her. 

My wife called my mother and apologized to her. My mother's first words to her was, "Hi sweety, and my mother sobbed and sobbed, saying she was praying for her and her prayers were answered. My wife was sobbing and said that I did not do a thing to cause her to have these A's. I did not ask her to call my mother. 

My wife did ask me if she could unblock her middle sister from my FB so she can see what we are writing and I said NO.

My wife posted some things on FB admitting to cheating etc and I asked her to take it down. I told her don't embarras yourself and I don't expect her to do that on FB. If friends write us she can explain it through messages.

My wife did post that she is sorry for all the confusion she caused and that she has a wonderful husband. I think that is sufficient for FB. I did not ask her to do any of this. People who know the situation has written very positive statements.

One friend who she tried to get involved was a gf from her high school days and I asked her about it. She told me that she never responded but that she knew from her other friends what was going on. Well I looked this girl up and she is a very devout Christian and I think (not sure) she read between the lines and did not want to be part of my wife's drama. THis girl is good friends with one of the my wife's old GF's and this one knew all the details of my wife's A's and I believe she shared it with her. I suspect that this girl did not want to support my wife because of her A.

Financially we are doing very well. I have paid all the bills, caught up with some that we were behind on, will be able to pay off a credit card, maybe two (over $5000.00) and then work on getting the last one paid off, hopefully by Fall. After that, I will pay off two loans and will only have to worry about the mortgage on this house. At the beginning of March I was broke. I even paid our taxes.

Tables are selling, my wife is working her butt off bringing in money, I have three tables to refinish and I can't believe it. I get solid wood tables for free or less than $40.00 and refinish them in less than 3 hours and they are selling for $300.00 to $500.00 a piece when I get them done. I did not sell the stuff that I made, table, benches, headboard, etc. Man I wanted to keep that stuff.

We are going out to restaurants. Took my wife and son out last night and it is nice to be able to afford it. Once I get the credit cards paid off I won't use them again unless we go on a trip. I am paying cash on almost everything. 

I do believe that for the first time since 1999 or prior to that my wife has truely changed. It is hard to explain but I do not feel the tension, the deceit, the lies. 

I am in pain. And it gets bad. Hearing the stuff that she did with the OM is very painful. Hearing her tell me that they mocked me when I gave his pastor the wrong dates and the OM was able to prove he was at work. She said they both said how stupid I was and were laughing about it. She keeps saying how sorry she is. ANd I want the truth, no matter how painful. She thanked me for praying for her soul and not giving up on her. 

My wife has not once shown defiance, no defenciveness, no blameshifting, no stubbornness, (one lie about FB). She has owned up to her errors and has taken full responsiblity. She is going to go for counseling. We will try to find a church together. 

I have been very tender with her (for the most part). Last Thursday night I went out to the sun room and she came out saying, "Mac, hit me, punch me, beat me up, I deserve it, I should not have lied about FB), she knew I was very upset, I said I never hit you, never ever threatened you and I am not going to start now. She said I want to prove to you that I have changed no matter what.

Again, I am skeptical but she does seem to have radically changed.


----------



## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> TB,
> 
> Demand today while she is in a open and telling mood:
> 
> Time line from her back to 1998 - all men, all locations, all details
> Tell her it will be asked on the poly.


She is doing this on her own, writing it all down. She says she does not want to leave anything out (as I have asked). She asked for time to get it right. I am OK with that.

Poly is being scheduled. Without her knowledge. I need help on this one. I don't know what questions to ask.


----------



## Thorburn

Acabado said:


> So does she admit she was gaslighting you with the memory issues all the time?
> Before this recent February-May fiasco I remember you was still stuck in a particular odd night where she aparently conatcted OM at an hotel. She always denied, arguing memory problems too. Does she remember now?
> Tell her to google "Gaslighting", to read a few entries.
> 
> Just a little detail... what happend with the affair car blanket?
> 
> Why did she kept going at OM while let you get financialy tangled with this new house?


Yes she admitted to using her memory issues as an excuse. She says she does have memory issues and gave me some examples but she will not use it as an excuse. THe examples have nothing to do with her A's and she does get her memory back. 

The blanket. Piss*s me off. I have it in the basement. I confronted her last week about still having a bed in her car. She said, no that is for the dog. I said, really, isn't those blankets the same ones that have been in the car since forever? She said, I just changed the top ones and the one in the car is the one that my brother's dog died on. I said how many times did you have sex on that thing? She went over to the car and ripped it out, she was angry, and ripped it out and threw it in the trash. I stood there and said, "Oh you are mad now?" She said, I am mad at myself for being so stupid.

My Iraq blanket? Man. My friend gave it to me over in Iraq. He was there for 15 months and never washed it. I never washed it. It was a big zebra pattern blanket. Very thick. I kept the AC on so high it was like 49 degrees my room, one time the AC went bunkers and it froze the water in my room. Keep in mind that it got over 120 degrees over there. I just slept in that blanket, no sheets. My wife, my friends and I joked about how disgusting it was. We had a free laundry and I just never took it over there. When I got home my wife washed it about 5 times. We made love on it, in it, under it many times. It meant a lot to me. There is nothing redemptive in it. I will figure out what to do with it. Maybe take it out one day and burn it. 

The car. I would like to see it crushed. I have rode in it and almost jumped out of it the other day. I had my wife pull over and I had to get out. I could hardly breathe. She said she will sell it. Nope, it will be stripped down or crushed. Not traded, not sold.


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## Thorburn

Machiavelli said:


> Actually, Hosea did what he did because God gave him a direct order to do so. This was meant to be a warning to Israel and Judah for their idolatry (whøredoms) with the false gods of the surrounding countries. God portrayed himself as a man with two wives (Israel and Judah). Of course, in the end God wrote out a bill of divorcement from Israel and Israel passed off the stage of history as the Ten Lost Tribes. Hosea has nothing to do with Thorburn.


Thanks. I did pray for a hedge of thorns around my wife and I prayed that prayer quite a bit.


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## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> When you talk to the OMW, try to slip in a question about the refrigerator in the garage, it could be anything, like, what color is it? If she replies they don't have a fridge in the garage then we know her husband is not the man in the car. The man in the car made a comment about going out to his garage to get a drink from the fridge.
> 
> T


What they were referring to was my wife bought him a bottle of Long Island Ice Tea. He put it in the refrigerator in his garage. His wife asked him where did that come from and he told her it has been there for over a year or more. My wife told me when his wife was saying that my wife was lying (two Sunday's ago), to ask her about the Long Island Ice Tea bottle in her refrigerator. My wife said that will prove that she is not lying because how would she know about that. I did not have to do it, he confessed to his wife the next day. My wife shared with me some other things that would prove to his wife that it was him. She was begging me to send the recording to her. 

In early 2012, when I would drive home drunk, I would stop by his house and sit outside, thinking some pretty dark thoughts. He was home on some of those occasions. At that time I thought the A was over. His garage is attached to his house, I saw the stinking refrigerator on occasions when the garage door was opened but the Ice tea as not an issue at that time.

At some point in the near future I will have someone who knows the OM listen to a portion of the recording just to give me 100% assurance that it is him. I am convinced it is this guy.


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## MattMatt

Thorburn said:


> She is doing this on her own, writing it all down. She says she does not want to leave anything out (as I have asked). She asked for time to get it right. I am OK with that.
> 
> Poly is being scheduled. Without her knowledge. I need help on this one. I don't know what questions to ask.


Questions could be general and then more specific:-

Have you passionately kissed any persons other than your husband during your marriage?

Have you had any sexual contact (excluding intercourse) with any person other than your husband, during your marriage? 

Have you had any sexual contact (including intercourse) with any person other than your husband, during your marriage? 

Have you had any sexual contact with anyone other than your husband within the past two years?


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## Thorburn

I did threaten one guy (Creepo) on FB. My wfie and him talked at length in 2010. My wife shared with him details of our marriage that she never shared with me. The guy gave her his number and wanted to meet with her when he was in town. I caught her sexting another man and it ended it. Creepo is a retired state trooper. She knew him in HS. He kept staying over and over again that he did not remember her, even though he was best frinds with a guy my wife dated. When she started her new FB's he was one of the first guys she had on her FB. He friend requested her. Interesting in that she had a FB (I controlled it) and when she started a new one with the same name he contacted her. i have read all the messages. He did come to town the other week and they did not meet up even though he was staying in a hotel a few miles away. He invited her to his hotel but the texts showed that they never met. My wife did not delete this stuff and had no time to delete anything when she gave me her computer. She gave me her computer after her meltdown in my truck and I do believe she had no intentions of doing that. 

I have all the emails from 2010. His first name is weird, sounds like "Creepo" and his last name is common man's name. Anyway, I wrote him a message, "Hey Creepo, funny how you keep pursueing a married woman. Invite her to your hotel room, give her your phone number, wanted to hook up with her in 2010. And you keep saying you don't want your wife to know. with tons of smiley faces. I want you to know Creepo that I have all the emails from 2010 till present and how should I send them to your wife and let her decide what your intentions were. If you ever even think of my wife your wife will get those emails and I will have one of my state trooper buddies deliever them to your wife."

Since we deleted her FB accounts I have not seen his reply. I know I can reactivate them over the next 14 days but I just want them to go away. 

The theologian. I threatened him as well. I called him "Mr. Lonely", because he kept saying to my wife between talking about baseball about how lonely he is. I knew him from college. I said to him, with such a hugh following as you have and you depend on book sales, I just would hate to see you exposed for chasing after married women. In our conservative Christian circles this kind of activity just does not sit well. I told him a scandal would be hard to on his income. I said in your text messages you don't come across as a brilliant theologian but as a pitiful lonely man chasing after married women. I said, maybe I should publish your texts messages between you and my wife and let the public decide.


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## sandc

Thornburn, I just caught up on your thread. As a fellow Christian brother I have to say your patience and reliance on God is nothing short of astounding. God has been sanctifying you in a way I cannot begin to understand. I will be praying that your wife is sincere this time. I would hope that you would keep the D as an option. Christ Himself said you are justified in D'ing her (as I'm sure you're fully aware.)

It has been an encouragement to me personally to see how you have kept your faith through this ordeal and also presented the Gospel to all the readers of your thread in a very visible way.

And yeah, crush the car and post pictures. God bless!


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## The bishop

Your WW needs a whole lot more help to overcome her impulses... is she getting it? 

I am a serial cheater, I want to believe that all of a sudden she understands what she has done and is cured of her addiction. I want to believe what you are feeling about her finally changing is true. I want to believe that she will never hurt you again. I don’t.

What I do believe is her life without you wasn’t looking all that fun. That fun was all but gone and she was going to lose out on the D. BAM…. All of a sudden radical change, by the grace of god. 

Serial cheaters don’t just do this…. what we will do is lie and manipulate until our needs are met. I can cry, I can show you true remorse, I can do and say all the right things to make you believe me… so can you wife. She will cheat again, it is all that she knows.

Also, how is the pastor playing in all of this?? I think you should question her more about that interaction, Why was it such a secret? What was he telling her? Why did he side with her? How long after did she all of a sudden have this revelation? 

At some point she will seek outside attention or someone will provide it. She will not be able to overcome it. Little by little, she will start hiding things, lying, and manipulating. She knows what she is doing…. And is good at it, damn she was coaching her OM’s along the way!


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## thatbpguy

Thorburn said:


> My work computer got hit with a nasty virus on Thursday. Just got a replacement computer today. I reported it first thing on Firday and left work after an hour telling everyone I was sick ( I was so upset about her lying about FB the night before I thought I was going to crack up). Ironically, I got the virus from looking at pictures on Yahoo Images of the time I served in Iraq and I was clicking on pictures of our units that I served with at that time. So iraq still suc*s as it infected my work computer.
> 
> I spoke to the OM several times last week. I first asked him questions that I knew the answers. He answered them without hesitation and correctly. I then asked him questions that I did not know the answers. He answered them promtly and I believe truthfully. I ended talking to him on Thursday and he kept apologizing to me.
> 
> As far as the OMW. I gave her an invitation to talk to me with a thrid party present and have not heard back.
> 
> On Thursday my wife and I were talking and she lied to me for the first time (that I am aware) since last Saturday. I triggered big time. I asked her if she communicated with the OM on her new FB, the one she started in February. She said no. I opened up her FB and showed her where she sent him a smiley face. She tried to say she did not communicate with the OM via FB. I know this is a minor detail but I got mad. I asked her six times and she finally said, I see your point, I did not see it as communicating, he never replied and I did not send him anything else (I was able to verify that). The OM did tell me that he did not use FB much and that they only communicated via FB back in 2011. I have been able to verify all that. But I triggered. That is why I left work early on Friday.
> 
> I have to admit that I got a few beers on my way home on Friday (OK more than a few) and arrived home drunk Friday morning. When I pulled into the driveway (my son and wife did not know I was coming home) they both came running out to greet me. I said I am drunk, because you lied. My wife took me by the hand and took me into the garage and we sat down and talked for hours. She kept apologizing to me. She said, I understand that any lie, no matter how small will trigger you and she said this is all her fault. She then explained a lot more about her A and answered every question. She never once blamed me. She has not blamed me at all. She said she blamed me for everything to her friends and family and it was just an excuse.
> 
> She did ask me that in the future if I have a question (like the one about FB) that I give her more time to answer it. She said she does not want a blow up like on Thursday night, which resulted in me getting drunk. She said, she caused all this and she wants to fix it.
> 
> There is a lot of stuff that has transpired since last week. Other than the FB question I have not found her lying to me. It has been brutal some of the stuff she has shared with me, details, etc.
> 
> She did ask me to give her time to give a "full" accounting of everything. She said she is writing it all down and does not want to leave anything out. She said I do not want you to get mad if I leave something out, so she is asking for time to write it all down. I did tell her that I have been tired of asking questions since the beginning of time and all I got was lies, half-truths, etc and will not go through that again.
> 
> The two dates in 2011 and the two late nights in 2011 that I was obsessed with since that time, she told me about those times and dates and stated why even when I showed her the proof she went into a "I don't remember mode". I may have mentioned this before, but the OM and her had a story and they did not want to change it and it did not include those dates and times.
> 
> Last night I brought in all the files I had since 2010. Phone logs, emails, etc. I must have had a foot or more of files. I had them at a secure location and brought them home. I went over a few items (high lights) and my wife stood there and cried saying how sorry she was at the pain she has caused me. She took me into the bedroom and put her arms around me and put her head on my shoulder and cried saying over and over again how sorry she was at the pain she has caused me, for over an hour.
> 
> We spent part of the weekend In Delaware. I triggered having sex. She told me that everytime they met they had sex two to three times. Don't ask what came over me but I wanted to do it two to three times. I still have it in me without meds. During the second go around I thought of the recording and triggered. I got mad, got dressed and left for 1/2 hour. Came back in and my wife was sobbing saying this is all her fault. She said I don't want to experience that again can you tell me what you were feeling? I explained to her what I was thinking and what triggered this. I told her I wanted to prove something and triggered. She told me that I am all that she needs and ever wants in her life and told me over and over again how sorry she is.
> 
> There is a lot more I could write but she seems sincere.
> 
> I am skeptical.
> 
> 
> My wife went to work today and I have a GPS on her phone. Her work location is not perfect in that when she is in the salon her phone does not pick up a signal. But I can track her otherwise. Right now she is leaving work and is on her way home. My phone did the same thing when I worked at the hospital years ago. I could not get a signal in my office. I think I will get a GPS on her car as well. Not perfect but it will give me some relief.
> 
> My wife has been texting my youngest son about once a day or so and he will not respond to her. I had a talk with him about this and he said he is not ready to talk to his mother. I told him to take his time and don't rush it. My wife is anxious to renew her relationship with him and I told her to let him decide when he is ready.
> 
> My wife and I are sharing my FB. I got everything I needed from her two FB's. I messaged some of the guys. They thought I was her. My wife had a whole system of codes with these guys, some members of her family and her gf's. It was her way of making sure that if I hacked anything they would know it was her. She shared all this with me withuot me asking. Well two guys responded. The fireman who she has not texted or talked to in two months called her a "nut case" and said we have not talked in months and don't contact me again. They never met. They sent pictures back and forth, kids, dogs, of each other but nothing related to sex. The other guy seemed shocked that she contacted him and basically said it has been a while since we communicated "what's up".
> 
> Get this. I thought she had connected with a bunch of her old GF's. Not the case. Her support group (so to speak) was three of our nieces and they basically told the family that they did not want to meet with her. 4 high school friends and one girl she was friends with growing up. All of them had very little contact with her over all. They were helping her with attorneys, giving her names, etc. They all bought her lie that she was being abused by me. Since she apologized only one has been in contact with her. I have seen the phone logs and text messages. She was calling me a fuc*ing A hole, etc. She did not delete anything, wanted me to see it all, just to show me she is telling the truth. Only one brother is talking to her and he is not saying much to her.
> 
> My wife called my mother and apologized to her. My mother's first words to her was, "Hi sweety, and my mother sobbed and sobbed, saying she was praying for her and her prayers were answered. My wife was sobbing and said that I did not do a thing to cause her to have these A's. I did not ask her to call my mother.
> 
> My wife did ask me if she could unblock her middle sister from my FB so she can see what we are writing and I said NO.
> 
> My wife posted some things on FB admitting to cheating etc and I asked her to take it down. I told her don't embarras yourself and I don't expect her to do that on FB. If friends write us she can explain it through messages.
> 
> My wife did post that she is sorry for all the confusion she caused and that she has a wonderful husband. I think that is sufficient for FB. I did not ask her to do any of this. People who know the situation has written very positive statements.
> 
> One friend who she tried to get involved was a gf from her high school days and I asked her about it. She told me that she never responded but that she knew from her other friends what was going on. Well I looked this girl up and she is a very devout Christian and I think (not sure) she read between the lines and did not want to be part of my wife's drama. THis girl is good friends with one of the my wife's old GF's and this one knew all the details of my wife's A's and I believe she shared it with her. I suspect that this girl did not want to support my wife because of her A.
> 
> Financially we are doing very well. I have paid all the bills, caught up with some that we were behind on, will be able to pay off a credit card, maybe two (over $5000.00) and then work on getting the last one paid off, hopefully by Fall. After that, I will pay off two loans and will only have to worry about the mortgage on this house. At the beginning of March I was broke. I even paid our taxes.
> 
> Tables are selling, my wife is working her butt off bringing in money, I have three tables to refinish and I can't believe it. I get solid wood tables for free or less than $40.00 and refinish them in less than 3 hours and they are selling for $300.00 to $500.00 a piece when I get them done. I did not sell the stuff that I made, table, benches, headboard, etc. Man I wanted to keep that stuff.
> 
> We are going out to restaurants. Took my wife and son out last night and it is nice to be able to afford it. Once I get the credit cards paid off I won't use them again unless we go on a trip. I am paying cash on almost everything.
> 
> I do believe that for the first time since 1999 or prior to that my wife has truely changed. It is hard to explain but I do not feel the tension, the deceit, the lies.
> 
> I am in pain. And it gets bad. Hearing the stuff that she did with the OM is very painful. Hearing her tell me that they mocked me when I gave his pastor the wrong dates and the OM was able to prove he was at work. She said they both said how stupid I was and were laughing about it. She keeps saying how sorry she is. ANd I want the truth, no matter how painful. She thanked me for praying for her soul and not giving up on her.
> 
> My wife has not once shown defiance, no defenciveness, no blameshifting, no stubbornness, (one lie about FB). She has owned up to her errors and has taken full responsiblity. She is going to go for counseling. We will try to find a church together.
> 
> I have been very tender with her (for the most part). Last Thursday night I went out to the sun room and she came out saying, "Mac, hit me, punch me, beat me up, I deserve it, I should not have lied about FB), she knew I was very upset, I said I never hit you, never ever threatened you and I am not going to start now. She said I want to prove to you that I have changed no matter what.
> 
> Again, I am skeptical but she does seem to have radically changed.


Wow.

Keep pitching. Despite the pain, so far so good.

And although I hope the best for you two kids, I would keep monitoring her forever.


----------



## thatbpguy

Thorburn said:


> The theologian. I threatened him as well. I called him "Mr. Lonely", because he kept saying to my wife between talking about baseball about how lonely he is. I knew him from college. I said to him, with such a hugh following as you have and you depend on book sales, I just would hate to see you exposed for chasing after married women. In our conservative Christian circles this kind of activity just does not sit well. I told him a scandal would be hard to on his income. I said in your text messages you don't come across as a brilliant theologian but as a pitiful lonely man chasing after married women. I said, maybe I should publish your texts messages between you and my wife and let the public decide.


I would do this.


----------



## 2asdf2

Thorburn said:


> She is doing this on her own, writing it all down. She says she does not want to leave anything out (as I have asked). She asked for time to get it right. I am OK with that.
> 
> Poly is being scheduled. Without her knowledge. I need help on this one. I don't know what questions to ask.


Please read the links in my signature before scheduling the poly.


----------



## happyman64

Good luck with the poly. 

I truly hope your wife is remorseful and totally honest with you.

I think she needed to be broken.

But if she is truly broken by you and being forthcoming with all that history will you still want to be married to her Thorburn.

I know you love your wife. Heck, we all know it.

But after all is said and done we want you to be happy, healthy and dry.

And not driven crazy by this horrible, multi year tragedy that has been inflicted on you , your marriage and your family.

Take care of yourself Thorburn because no one else will.

HM64


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## bfree

I'm very concerned that when you were detaching and on a path toward divorce you weren't drinking at all. Now that she has "confessed" and you have stopped the divorce you have started drinking again. There seems to be a definite pattern here.


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## Thorburn

sandc said:


> Thornburn, I just caught up on your thread. As a fellow Christian brother I have to say your patience and reliance on God is nothing short of astounding. God has been sanctifying you in a way I cannot begin to understand. I will be praying that your wife is sincere this time. I would hope that you would keep the D as an option. Christ Himself said you are justified in D'ing her (as I'm sure you're fully aware.)
> 
> It has been an encouragement to me personally to see how you have kept your faith through this ordeal and also presented the Gospel to all the readers of your thread in a very visible way.
> 
> And yeah, crush the car and post pictures. God bless!


I don't understand it. Yesterday I said a little prayer. My wife was telling the OM on the recording "to relax, I will take care of you". And oh boy did she. I asked God for her to say that to me and do it. I did not share this with her. Last night she did. She came over to me and said, "Mac, relax, I want to take care of you". I literally started crying. She never said that to me and I prayed that prayer yesterday morning never expecting that God would answer my simple prayer that soon. I am humbled.


----------



## sandc

Kudo's for not getting completely angry with her for using the same lines on you as she used with the OM. I don't think I would have reacted the same way. 

I sincerely hope that God has effected a permanent change in her heart. Trust in God but verify your wife.


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## Thorburn

The bishop said:


> Your WW needs a whole lot more help to overcome her impulses... is she getting it?
> 
> I am a serial cheater, I want to believe that all of a sudden she understands what she has done and is cured of her addiction. I want to believe what you are feeling about her finally changing is true. I want to believe that she will never hurt you again. I don’t.
> 
> What I do believe is her life without you wasn’t looking all that fun. That fun was all but gone and she was going to lose out on the D. BAM…. All of a sudden radical change, by the grace of god.
> 
> Serial cheaters don’t just do this…. what we will do is lie and manipulate until our needs are met. I can cry, I can show you true remorse, I can do and say all the right things to make you believe me… so can you wife. She will cheat again, it is all that she knows.
> 
> Also, how is the pastor playing in all of this?? I think you should question her more about that interaction, Why was it such a secret? What was he telling her? Why did he side with her? How long after did she all of a sudden have this revelation?
> 
> At some point she will seek outside attention or someone will provide it. She will not be able to overcome it. Little by little, she will start hiding things, lying, and manipulating. She knows what she is doing…. And is good at it, damn she was coaching her OM’s along the way!


Thanks. I am not sure how this will all play out. I have certainly learned a lot about serial cheaters. As she is starting counseling and I am planning on some other tests we shall see what these outcomes will reveal. 

I got all the information on the pastor. Emails back and forth. Just like the pastor in 1999 (same denomination) he bought her lies and blamed me, saying I caused my wife to run into the arms of other men. They have this view that the husband is responsible for everything in the house. If the wife cheats, husband's fault, if the wife is an alcoholic, husband's fault. He shared everything about me with her and her two brothers. He shared nothing with me and told her that they will keep it secret. He told me to tell my wife everything before I took any action, stopping the money, divorce, etc. Yet he kept telling her that he will protect her and not share anything with me. I honestly think he wanted in her pants. When they met I am told they met once at his house with his wife. Not sure if his wife was there or not.


----------



## Jasel

You should email all that correspondance between the pastor and your wife to your BIL and say "Yea your pastor is a real hero".


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## Thorburn

Jasel said:


> You should email all that correspondance between the pastor and your wife to your BIL and say "Yea your pastor is a real hero".


I am done with the in-laws. Learned some lessons here. I told the wife other then the youngest brother I am done with her family. And even with the youngest one I will be fairly aloof. Not one of them wanted to confront their sister. Her middle sister did confront her and then went back in her weird mental state and told me I was lying about what she said and what she did. 

My wife shared this with me. In 1999 my wife was having a PA and sexting on Yahoo chat with at least 4 guys around the world. I had keylogger evidence. Her middle sister was also involved and I told her husband back in 1999 and he caught my SIL sex talking online back in 1999. My nieces (my middle SIL's daughters) were also on Yahoo chat with them at that time. They would have been around ages 12 and 15. I remember looking at Yahoo chat when I was gathering evidence. I am not very conversant on these web sites but I remember you signed up for it and there were a variety of chat rooms that you could go on. Some were very explicit and very sexually oriented. You could also go into a private chat room. Now the girls were all exposed to this. My wife stated that she did not know what the nieces were doing but she knows that her sister and her would share guys. My wife remembers one of the guys from Ireland (I have her sex talk with this guy) and her sister introduced her to him saying he is a very sexy talker. When I contacted him pretending to be my wife here they had a code word and I could not respond to him and he said this is not the wife but the husband and it ended. 

i told my wife your sister let her girls on this crap and I don't want contact with her ever again after finding this out. My wife shared with me that her sister was also out seeing men. Cheating on her husband at this time. I told my wife you can get in touch with your sister if you want but I will not approve of it. I said there is too much evil shared between the two of you going back to when you were 11 years. So don't even go there.

When my SIL had clarity of mind a few weeks back she shared some of this with me. Then after my wife chewed her out for sharing thing with me my SIL called me and said I am a liar and she never told me this stuff and I better clear it up with the family. I beleive she is bi-polar. She is definetly nuts. Clear headed one moment and nuts the next. 

As far as the emails go between my wife and the pastor. Not worth it. My BIL's know he lied about me and still wanted me to "submit" to him. In their mind if you are not under pastoral authority you are in trouble because Satan will get you and only a pastor can protect you. Let the boogey man come and get me. I am planning on finding a church but I will never again be under a control freak. 

The way my wife was spinning everything I do get where she fooled her friends and for a while her family. BUt I do not understand this pastor. He had my side of the story, very clearly. Why he said I did not speak to him about my issues and then backtracked and then respun what I said or what I did not say is beyond me. After he met with my wife it was all about controlling me and no longer confronting my wife. That much is clear. Even with the text messages I have his focus became Mac, submit, relinguish your rights to me. Even when he spoke to my son the pastor told him "I know how to handle your dad". Just like the pastor in 1999. 

Where is her family now? They have our phone numbers, emails etc. With the exception of the youngest BIL (and it has been brief with him) there has been no contact. None. Because I am no longer a puppet on a string they abandoned ship. 

My wife wrote this private message to her family members on FB on Monday:

Thanking and praising God for Mac's prayers and that he never gave up on me...I am broken by Jesus and have truly repented ...I'm full of sorrow and am seeking forgiveness from all that I have offended...

FB shows that they all read it.


----------



## sandc

Meh. They just think you made her write that.

Whatever church you choose please schedule a long meeting with their pastor and explain your entire situation. If you try to join a church they will most like try to contact your former church to discern why you left and why you are there. This is why I don't go to churches that have one pastor and no accountability for him to anyone else. I prefer churches with a plurality of elders who have to report to another governing body above them. There are appeal and review processes. Impropriety by pastors in these churches isn't unheard of but when found out, it's dealt with.


----------



## arbitrator

Thorburn: With what you've gone through my man, you make me and my situation feel so damn irrelavent and inconsequential, by comparison.

In agreement with Sandy: Go to your church with this matter!


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## Thorburn

sandc said:


> Meh. They just think you made her write that.
> 
> Whatever church you choose please schedule a long meeting with their pastor and explain your entire situation. If you try to join a church they will most like try to contact your former church to discern why you left and why you are there. This is why I don't go to churches that have one pastor and no accountability for him to anyone else. I prefer churches with a plurality of elders who have to report to another governing body above them. There are appeal and review processes. Impropriety by pastors in these churches isn't unheard of but when found out, it's dealt with.


Will never ever join a church. Will not go through the membership process. I just want to be an attendee. I was never a member of this last church. The last church I was a member of was in 2002 when I finally left the one that the pastor in 1999 blamed me. I have been ordained with a Church organization from 1992 till last year and they were a bunch of great guys. I gave up my ordination last year over my wife's A and they told me that I did not have to do that. The organization HQ is in the mid-West. Really got a lot from them over the years, we had a group here in PA. There was no church near me. They prayed for me but I did not want to muddle the waters with them with lots of details. They never pressed me for details. I was close to a few guys but like I said I never went into great details with them.


----------



## sandc

Thorburn said:


> Will never ever join a church. Will not go through the membership process. I just want to be an attendee. I was never a member of this last church. The last church I was a member of was in 2002 when I finally left the one that the pastor in 1999 blamed me. I have been ordained with a Church organization from 1992 till last year and they were a bunch of great guys. I gave up my ordination last year over my wife's A and they told me that I did not have to do that. The organization HQ is in the mid-West. Really got a lot from them over the years, we had a group here in PA. There was no church near me. They prayed for me but I did not want to muddle the waters with them with lots of details. They never pressed me for details. I was close to a few guys but like I said I never went into great details with them.


Well also speaking as someone who is ordained... I don't blame you. Since you were not a member of the prior church then yeah, just find a better one this time. Although my fine brother Arbitrator would recommend the UMC, I recommend a good reformed Presbyterian church. They have accountability for their leadership.


----------



## aug

Thorburn said:


> My wife wrote this private message to her family members on FB on Monday:
> 
> Thanking and praising God for Mac's prayers and that he never gave up on me...I am broken by Jesus and have truly repented ...I'm full of sorrow and am seeking forgiveness from all that I have offended...



oh, really?!?


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## turnera

Thorburn said:


> he kept telling her that he will protect her and not share anything with me. I honestly think he wanted in her pants.


That's what I had said.

Just because you decide to be a clergy doesn't mean you're more divine or even closer to God. It just means you felt that would be a good job for you.


----------



## turnera

Thorburn said:


> My wife wrote this private message to her family members on FB on Monday:
> 
> Thanking and praising God for Mac's prayers and that he never gave up on me...I am broken by Jesus and have truly repented ...I'm full of sorrow and am seeking forgiveness from all that I have offended...
> 
> FB shows that they all read it.


 I notice she didn't say what she repented FOR.


----------



## karole

turnera said:


> That's what I had said.
> 
> Just because you decide to be a clergy doesn't mean you're more divine or even closer to God. It just means you felt that would be a good job for you.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> The pastor would most likely disagree with you there Tunera, I'm sure he would say that God himself led him into the ministry.
> 
> TB, I still think you should report the pastor.


----------



## turnera

meh, I've known great pastors, I've known disgusting pastors; I've met more who have HURT people's lives than I've met who have helped. I've yet to meet one who truly walks around with a feeling of 'doing God's work' about him/her. Even mine, who I think is a great person, can't be bothered to put in more than her 2 days a week work. It's just a job.


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## Acabado

Thor, friend. Stay away from the booze.


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## Thorburn

sandc said:


> Well also speaking as someone who is ordained... I don't blame you. Since you were not a member of the prior church then yeah, just find a better one this time. Although my fine brother Arbitrator would recommend the UMC, I recommend a good reformed Presbyterian church. They have accountability for their leadership.


Ironically, I applied for ordination with the UMC. I had several UMC pastors sponsor me but the Bishop said my theology was not in keeping with the UMC. He promotes gay and lesbian issues and I took issue with that. I have many UMC pastor friends from the time I served in the military and when I was a chaplain from 1992 till 2001. Went to their conferences, etc and these guys and I are all on the same page theologically. Many of my classmates in seminary are ordained in the UMC. I was told that if I went to the Southern states I would have no problems. 

RPC - I worked with several RPC pastors. Good guys and I attended some services. Good preaching but I could not stand the worship. It was too rigid for me. I remember meeting one guy at a conference and he told me that he was RPC and I said "oh, you are a Covenanter?" He was surprised that I knew about his denomination. 

Don't know which way I will go but all I can say is that I will be in the margins. I have enough Christian friends from various denominations that I will be able to share things with them, I will not need a "church" for that.


----------



## Fisherman

Thorburn said:


> Ironically, I applied for ordination with the UMC. I had several UMC pastors sponsor me but the Bishop said my theology was not in keeping with the UMC. He promotes gay and lesbian issues and I took issue with that. I have many UMC pastor friends from the time I served in the military and when I was a chaplain from 1992 till 2001. Went to their conferences, etc and these guys and I are all on the same page theologically. Many of my classmates in seminary are ordained in the UMC. I was told that if I went to the Southern states I would have no problems.
> 
> RPC - I worked with several RPC pastors. Good guys and I attended some services. Good preaching but I could not stand the worship. It was too rigid for me. I remember meeting one guy at a conference and he told me that he was RPC and I said "oh, you are a Covenanter?" He was surprised that I knew about his denomination.
> 
> Don't know which way I will go but all I can say is that I will be in the margins. I have enough Christian friends from various denominations that I will be able to share things with them, I will not need a "church" for that.


To me there is only one church, forget all the denominations.


----------



## Thorburn

aug said:


> oh, really?!?


Being skeptical.

If my wife is sorry for being caught - then it is not change.

If my wife blameshifts - it is not change

If my wife mininizes (like I am not as bad a Hitler) - it is not change.

If my wife does not show Godly sorrow - it is not change

If my wife merely confesses - it is not change (what do you want, me to hug you and say we are all better now)

If my wife merely gives excuses - it is not change (the devil made me do it or my father did not love me)

If my wife is merely sorry - it is not change
*sorry for hurting me
*sorry for her sons saying she is a slu* - yes she told the OM that he can go home and not feel the pressure, but she told the OM that her family is saying all kinds of stuff about her and her boys are calling her a slu*
*sorry for the potential financial ruin
*sorry for the public shame
*sorry for runining the family
* sorry for being caught
*sorry for being questioned and having no one trust her
*sorry for being depressed

No change will be:

1. Being forever accountable. No more secrets.
2. Cleaning out all things that are bad just not the things you got caught. Confessing everything that is bad.
3. Facing the pain you caused others. Asking for forgiveness not because you want to move on quickly, but allowing the other person/s to get there on their own terms by admitting your wrongs and facing the consequences, what ever they may be. Realizing forgiveness is something you don't deserve, if given it is a gift. Realizing that it may take a life time for the pain you caused in others to be healed.
4. Accepting your limitations. That you may never enjoy the freedom you once had and that others may never accept you again. That there are new boundaries. That what may have been acceptable in the past or looked over by others are now going to be scruntinized no matter how innocent it may seem. Accepting these limitation willingly and without complaint.
5. Change (from my Christian perspective) is accepting the daily tasks that God gives to us.
6. Come, let us return to the Lord. He has torn us to pieces but he will heal us; he has injured us but he will bind up our wounds. After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence. (Hosea 6:1-2)

Those are some of my thoughts on what change is and what it is not. I am sure I could have added more.


----------



## ScubaSteve61

Fisherman said:


> To me there is only one church, forget all the denominations.


Its the core belief that counts, not the rites and rituals involved. Just because someone kneels, or doesn't kneel during their service, doesn't mean that they aren't worshipping right.


----------



## sandc

Thorburn said:


> Ironically, I applied for ordination with the UMC. I had several UMC pastors sponsor me but the Bishop said my theology was not in keeping with the UMC. He promotes gay and lesbian issues and I took issue with that. I have many UMC pastor friends from the time I served in the military and when I was a chaplain from 1992 till 2001. Went to their conferences, etc and these guys and I are all on the same page theologically. Many of my classmates in seminary are ordained in the UMC. I was told that if I went to the Southern states I would have no problems.
> 
> RPC - I worked with several RPC pastors. Good guys and I attended some services. Good preaching but I could not stand the worship. It was too rigid for me. I remember meeting one guy at a conference and he told me that he was RPC and I said "oh, you are a Covenanter?" He was surprised that I knew about his denomination.
> 
> Don't know which way I will go but all I can say is that I will be in the margins. I have enough Christian friends from various denominations that I will be able to share things with them, I will not need a "church" for that.


I was raised in the UMC. I saddened me to no end when I had to leave it for the very issue you raised. My church is covenantal and somewhat rigid.  But I am the non-rigid cage rattler that reminds everyone of GRACE! I hope God leads you to a church where you can heal, my brother.


----------



## turnera

ScubaSteve61 said:


> Its the core belief that counts, not the rites and rituals involved. Just because someone kneels, or doesn't kneel during their service, doesn't mean that they aren't worshipping right.


 Tell that to the Baptists.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> I notice she didn't say what she repented FOR.


Though I did not tell my wife what to write, I did ask her not to go into details with the rest of the family at this time. I asked my wife not to share much. She did share everything with her youngest brother via phone with me present. I said I was done with the in laws and my wife asked her younger brother to share some of details with the family but not who the OM is.

I do not want my youngest son to find out who the OM is at this time and her other family members will share this with him (it is how they are). He has already gone after two guys (we were wrong about them) and threatened them over the phone. He already told me that if he finds out that it was the OM from 2011 he will go to his work and it will be ugly. I don't want him to go to jail. 

When my wife gives me her written account, she told me that she is writing everything down (I did not ask her to write it but am pleased that she is), then I will decide what to share with the family. 

She has written to two of her HS gf's when they asked her what the heck is going on and she explained things to them. That she was wrong, lied to them, and stated that I was not the abusive husband that she had convinced them that I was. She stated that she had an A and was living in sin. 

So as far as her confessing things I will see what she writes and take it from there.

Last night I asked her a question and her answer led to more. It caused a heck of a lot of pain and I just shut down mentally. I was numb. I felt like I was just a shell. i went out to the sun room and just was laying on the couch. She found me and started to cry and took me to the bedroom and just hugged me and read the Bible, and kept saying how sorry she was to cause me such pain. I was just numb and went to bed. When I woke up this morning I had bible verses in my head and felt relief. My wife was already up and I knew she was praying for me.

She had gotten Rudy (our golden retriever) out of his cage and he was laying next to me. When I woke up he started licking my face. I just started laughing. My wife came in and laid next to us on the bed saying how sorry she was and that she has been praying for me for an hour.

I was still in shock with some of the things she told me last evening. Things I already knew from the OM but not the details. 

In nov. 2011 when she got caught and I exposed it she told me she ended it with the OM. That was the 29th of Nov. 2011. She did tell me that she called the OM to end it on or about Dec. 1. I knew about that call as she shared it with me. It was a lie as she kept her burner phone till about 12 Dec. 2011 and threw it away. She had told me she got rid of the phone prior to Nov 29.

I don't know all the details, I have not pressed her for them, as she is writing everything down and I will wait for that. What she shared with me was the OM was reallly scared and they cooled everything down for a while as far as meeting up again. They started talking again In December 2011 (really never stopped). They talked about ending it but then got into sexting. According to my wife they hooked up again in August 2012. Did not meet from Nov 29 2011 till August 2012. That seems to be the truth. We shall see. For me, what suc*s is, it was right after I recieved $18,000.00 in back disability payments, which allowed us to buy this new home and pay for trips to the Virgin Islands and Cancun and pay off bills. I told my wife last night when she found me in the sun room, I asked her if she wants me to sign over the house to her lover. I said I remember going out with my wife and celebrating the money. I said you could not wait to celebrate this with your lover. That is when she started to cry again and say she was sorry for the pain and took me to the bedroom. I said I was such a fool. I could have filed for D in December, got this money and ran, but I bought you a new home and paid for trips and this is how I get repaid. I said you decided to hook up again after 8 months and stabbed me in the back again. I said this house is a sham, the trips were a sham and they mean nothing. She kept saying how wrong she was and she will make it up to me. She said I know I caused this and I will help you. She said she feels like a piece of sh*t, I told her you have no idea what you are saying. I said I have felt like that for years. She said, I know and she said I did that to you. She kept saying she was sorry. I was just numb. I took a sleeping pill and all I remember is her hugging me and I was thinking of the Bible verse where it says in Lametations " Because of the LORD's great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness." And I fell asleep.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Tell that to the Baptists.


LOL, they aren't the only ones. Missouri Synod Lutheran, I did a service with one pastor and I loved the guy, but when it came to doing a joint communion service, it was if I asked him to kiss Satan. We did one together but separate. He on one table with just Lutherans and me with everyone else. I was raised Lutheran and understand the issue and am OK with it. 

In Iraq we had a coffee shop and cigar bar ran by a chaplain. When he left and another unit came in a Pentacostal chaplain took over. He wanted to put an end to the cigars. We were getting cigars from folks back in the states and I am talking premier cigars. This chaplain was not from our unit but I had a long talk with him about the cigars. I was ordained in a group similar to his. I asked him to pray about it. I said there are a lot of military members and civilians that come to this event on Thursdays and I said you have a captive audience. I said they flock to this event every week and you run it and you will get to talk to a lot of folks. I said if you can get over the issue of tobacco you will have a great ministry. He did.


----------



## sandc

Thorburn said:


> LOL, they aren't the only ones. Missouri Synod Lutheran, I did a service with one pastor and I loved the guy, but when it came to doing a joint communion service, it was if I asked him to kiss Satan. We did one together but separate. He on one table with just Lutherans and me with everyone else. I was raised Lutheran and understand the issue and am OK with it.
> 
> In Iraq we had a coffee shop and cigar bar ran by a chaplain. When he left and another unit came in a Pentacostal chaplain took over. He wanted to put an end to the cigars. We were getting cigars from folks back in the states and I am talking premier cigars. This chaplain was not from our unit but I had a long talk with him about the cigars. I was ordained in a group similar to his. I asked him to pray about it. I said there are a lot of military members and civilians that come to this event on Thursdays and I said you have a captive audience. I said they flock to this event every week and you run it and you will get to talk to a lot of folks. I said if you can get over the issue of tobacco you will have a great ministry. He did.


That's why I like being a Presbyterian. We can smoke and drink. Some of us even cuss from time to time.


----------



## turnera

Thorburn said:


> LOL, they aren't the only ones. Missouri Synod Lutheran, I did a service with one pastor and I loved the guy, but when it came to doing a joint communion service, it was if I asked him to kiss Satan. We did one together but separate. He on one table with just Lutherans and me with everyone else. I was raised Lutheran and understand the issue and am OK with it.


Don't get me started on Missouri Synod. We have a friend who's one (we're ELCA) and he flat out told us we are not legitimate Christians, lol. When we told him our pastor was female, he about had a cow. Then I told him that she's most likely gay (nobody asks)!


----------



## ScubaSteve61

turnera said:


> Don't get me started on Missouri Synod. We have a friend who's one (we're ELCA) and he flat out told us we are not legitimate Christians, lol. When we told him our pastor was female, he about had a cow. Then I told him that she's most likely gay (nobody asks)!


I was married by a female pastor. Bet he would think I'm not actually married lol!


----------



## CantSitStill

Sounds like your wife is coming out of the fog from what you have been posting. I hope that is true. After all that you have been through, I cannot advise you to R or D because she has years of cheating and that is a lot to handle. I pray you will heal from all of this. You didn't deserve any of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

CantSitStill said:


> Sounds like your wife is coming out of the fog from what you have been posting. I hope that is true. After all that you have been through, I cannot advise you to R or D because she has years of cheating and that is a lot to handle. I pray you will heal from all of this. You didn't deserve any of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is what I am hoping. Researching and reading stories here on TAM about the fog I can see where she never came out of it since at least 1999. I am hearing the truth for the first time, at least I think I am. So far other than the FB issues on Thursday night I have not caught her in one lie and believe me I have years worth of documentation. 

I really do not care if she does not remember a specific date. Tuesday September 27 2011 was a big deal for me. We came back from Disney the Saturday prior and the OM was leaving with his family to go to Disney that Friday and my wife said they did not meet on Tuesday and have sex. I had proof. From about 8 A.M. till she got home later that evening it was as if I was there. I knew just about everything. Yet till last week she denied it and said if it happened she does not remember. Last week she finally admitted to it. She said she and the OM had a script that did not include two times and she was not going to change her story. Four times and that was it. And I knew they had sex 6 times. So, she is sharing things that I know about and other things without hesitation. So if she says she does not remember a specific date but says yes we had sex after we came home from Disney and prior to the OM leaving for Disney I am OK with that. If she says, I don't remember the event or significant time frames then there will be serious issues with me. So far that has not been the case.


----------



## karole

sandc said:


> That's why I like being a Presbyterian. We can smoke and drink. Some of us even cuss from time to time.


Baptists can too, you just can't tell anybody or do it in public.


----------



## sandc

karole said:


> Baptists can too, you just can't tell anybody or do it in public.


:smthumbup:


----------



## Thorburn

ScubaSteve61 said:


> I was married by a female pastor. Bet he would think I'm not actually married lol!


You're not married my friend. LOL


----------



## turnera

Does that mean DD22 isn't really baptized, too?  

lol


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Does that mean DD22 isn't really baptized, too?
> 
> lol


Just wet my friend, just got wet.


----------



## thatbpguy

Thorburn, my wife was a 2-hour per day Bible reader/prayer. Deeply devout. Heavily involved in the church and morally stout. I was very much in love her and it showed. She betrayed me for 3 mos and ran off with the guy only to return 3 weeks later and vowed to repent from her sin. Months later it was betrayal #2. More repentance and vows of never letting it happen again. When I caught her again in less than a year I left. 

What I am trying to say is that it makes no difference if she makes claims of being a Christian or not. She is a betrayer. We could speculate on all the reasons why but the fact she is addicted to betrayal is clear. I might add my wife got better at hiding it each time. She also told me it was easier each time for her to justify to herself. And we went through the expose and shame routine as well. Didn't make any difference. In fact, I think deep down she like being a painted woman, so to speak. Made her feel more sexy. 

I don't know how many times you'll put up with this before you have had enough, but her pattern is undeniable. 

Were I you, I would take her to a psychiatrist. Not a marriage counselor, but a PhD shrink and see if they can get to the bottom of it all.


----------



## treyvion

thatbpguy said:


> Thorburn, my wife was a 2-hour per day Bible reader/prayer. Deeply devout. Heavily involved in the church and morally stout. I was very much in love her and it showed. She betrayed me for 3 mos and ran off with the guy only to return 3 weeks later and vowed to repent from her sin. Months later it was betrayal #2. More repentance and vows of never letting it happen again. When I caught her again in less than a year I left.
> 
> What I am trying to say is that it makes no difference if she makes claims of being a Christian or not. She is a betrayer. We could speculate on all the reasons why but the fact she is addicted to betrayal is clear. I might add my wife got better at hiding it each time. She also told me it was easier each time for her to justify to herself. And we went through the expose and shame routine as well. Didn't make any difference. In fact, I think deep down she like being a painted woman, so to speak. Made her feel more sexy.
> 
> I don't know how many times you'll put up with this before you have had enough, but her pattern is undeniable.
> 
> Were I you, I would take her to a psychiatrist. Not a marriage counselor, but a PhD shrink and see if they can get to the bottom of it all.


What does "being a painted woman" mean?


----------



## ScubaSteve61

Thorburn said:


> You're not married my friend. LOL


Sweet! I get to save money on that anniversary gift now!


----------



## thatbpguy

treyvion said:


> What does "being a painted woman" mean?


One who is married and likes men too much.


----------



## Curse of Millhaven

Thorburn said:


> I don't understand it. Yesterday I said a little prayer. My wife was telling the OM on the recording "to relax, I will take care of you". And oh boy did she. I asked God for her to say that to me and do it. I did not share this with her. Last night she did. She came over to me and said, "Mac, relax, I want to take care of you". I literally started crying. She never said that to me and I prayed that prayer yesterday morning never expecting that God would answer my simple prayer that soon. I am humbled.


I know you are moving forward with your reconciliation and seem satisfied (more or less) with the painstaking progress, but this broke my heart to read. The one person you so desperately needed to care for and about you, the person you adored and who vowed to love and cherish you above all others, was the one withholding what you needed most. With all that you’ve been through, all that you have suffered…this saddens me the most. The fact that your wife gave her body to others is terrible; that she denied you the love and tenderness you longed for and squandered it on another is unforgivable. I don’t know how you bear the pain she has brought on you and yours. I can’t speak to prayers answered or divine interventions or correct paths chosen or not, but I do sincerely hope you find what you are seeking in this reconciliation. 

I completely understand and mostly agree with your assessment of psychiatrists/psychologists; I’ve worked in clinical research for many years and some of the most forked up people you ever want to meet are mental health professionals. That said, there are some decent ones out there who are committed to helping their patients through their issues versus simply ignoring and medicating them. You are falling back on old crutches (alcohol) to help you stumble through the current wreckage of your life…I do wish you would seek professional guidance to help you through.

I don’t have biblical verses to offer (I grew up in a devout Roman Catholic household and left the church as soon as I was able, so my input would be negligible anyway), but I’d like to share another of my favorite poems that has given me perspective when I needed it. The last two lines always bring me hope of favorable outcomes from tragedies endured. 

Loss and Gain

When I compare
What I have lost with what I have gained,
What I have missed with what attained,
Little room do I find for pride.

I am aware
How many days have been idly spent;
How like an arrow the good intent
Has fallen short or been turned aside. 

But who shall dare
To measure loss and gain in this wise?
Defeat may be victory in disguise;
The lowest ebb is the turn of the tide.

~Longfellow


----------



## Thorburn

thatbpguy said:


> Thorburn, my wife was a 2-hour per day Bible reader/prayer. Deeply devout. Heavily involved in the church and morally stout. I was very much in love her and it showed. She betrayed me for 3 mos and ran off with the guy only to return 3 weeks later and vowed to repent from her sin. Months later it was betrayal #2. More repentance and vows of never letting it happen again. When I caught her again in less than a year I left.
> 
> What I am trying to say is that it makes no difference if she makes claims of being a Christian or not. She is a betrayer. We could speculate on all the reasons why but the fact she is addicted to betrayal is clear. I might add my wife got better at hiding it each time. She also told me it was easier each time for her to justify to herself. And we went through the expose and shame routine as well. Didn't make any difference. In fact, I think deep down she like being a painted woman, so to speak. Made her feel more sexy.
> 
> I don't know how many times you'll put up with this before you have had enough, but her pattern is undeniable.
> 
> Were I you, I would take her to a psychiatrist. Not a marriage counselor, but a PhD shrink and see if they can get to the bottom of it all.


I hear you. Since 1999 my wife never repented in the spiritual sense. In 1999 she bawled and said she was sorry but there was no religious awakening, no confession of much. In fact she brought cigarettes and booze and the "F" word into the house. We did not drink at all prior to that nor smoke nor did I ever use the "F" bomb. She introduced those things. I remember her middle brother hearing my son say the "F' bomb when he and his wife came to visit late in 1999. He asked my son where he learned that word (he thought it was from me), my son said, mom says it all the time. My middle BIL shared that with me at the time.

my wife stopped going to church when I did around 2001. She stopped reading her Bible and I realy don't remember her praying on her own. 

In 2001 she bawled a little but would not answer questions and did not come clean on one thing on her own. I asked her over and over again and she refused. We would take walks for over an hour and i would tell her and ask her to tell me what happened and she would not answer a thing. If I had evidence she would deny and deny and only after 3 to 5 attempts she would finally and relutantly admit to it and there was the evidence staring her in the face.

In 2011 and early 2012, she admitted to some things but even with the evidence she would say I don't remember. She said she was sorry and begged me not to D her. But everything she told me she was going to do she just blew it off, saying she forgot or that she did not feel it was that important. 

That is why I feel this time it seems different. I had a talk with her this morning. Last night stank. I stayed at work late. She did not like it. I am behind here at work with notes, treatment plans etc and took last night to get caught up. I really did not want to go home as I found out more stuff about what she was saying to family about me. I saw where she was telling my niece nasty stuff about me and my niece was saying nasty stuff about me. When I did come home I got on the computer and was confronting one of the guys by sending him an email. My wife asked me to go to bed and I refused saying I will take care of this and come to bed later. 

This morning my wife came to me and we talked a while. She witnessed the OM talking to me initally on the phone and saw how I handled it and how I got answers. Then I got more information from him over the next several days. She wants to contact the OMW and I told her no way. She feels guilty and knows that I got answers from the OM and feels that if she does the same thing with the OMW she may get closure. I said no way. I said if there is going to be any conversation with the OMW it will be with me and we are not going to chase her down. I offered her the opportunity to talk and share notes and it is in her court. I got most of what I wanted from the OM and we shall see how my wife's notes and his compare when she gives me her account. 

Today my wife is working about 20 to 30 minutes from the OM's house. I know that she is smarter now. Hooking up with the OM would be easy. But I am also smarter and I have more money to afford better technology. Trust but verify.

The counseling service in headed by a psychiatrist and I will see what they have to offer as far as psychological testing. 

Years ago when I was going through the ordination process with the Presbyterian church. I had to go through 5 days of psychological testing. When the psychologists met with me I was amazed what they knew about me just by having me do certain tests. In fact I was so impressed I went and got certified in one of the tests. It was amazing when I used this on clients. As long as the clients were truthful it was very accurate. The instrument had 37 scales. It was not an easy instrument to learn nor was it easy to learn how to interpret the data and work through all 37 scales. But once I had done it enough times (I had a very good trainer) it became second nature. I could just look at the scores and pretty much know what I was dealing with in the person sitting in front of me. I stopped using it when I moved into another position and the company would not pay for the tests. I had to pay for each test. Had to put in a new code for each exam into the computer. 

Anyway the place where my wife will be going looks good. I will see what testing they have available and pay for the tests if they are good ones. I really do want to know what I am dealing with in my wife. The one center started by Patrick Cairnes, which is just a few miles from our home, want several thousand dollars just for testing. Excellent tests for sexual issues but I don't want to spend that kind of money. 

Just don't know yet where I will go with this mess.


----------



## thatbpguy

Thorburn said:


> Just don't know yet where I will go with this mess.


I have a prediction.

Have her checked by a shrink and not a bunch of paper tests as I suspect your wife has a case of depression and probably more.


----------



## Thorburn

Called a shrink. I will meet with him and my wife to get some direction. He had worked in sexual addictions for many years and worked at a facility that Patrick Cairnes started. My goal is to get some guidance on where to go, what kind of treatment she needs, etc. He has good credentials and I spoke to him weeks ago and he was very helpful. 

We are going to end our antique business at the co-op. Been there since the beginning but she used it as a excuse to hook up with the OM. Since we moved it takes about 2 hours to get there so it would be about a 4 hour round trip. She would be gone all day and had a good excuse.


----------



## ScubaSteve61

How was your weekend, Thor?


----------



## Thorburn

ScubaSteve61 said:


> How was your weekend, Thor?


My weekend was a weekend of good and suckyyy. Had a ton of things I wanted to get done. Accomplished some. Saturday my son and wife went out to our community yard sale. Filled my truck and her jeep with stuff and only made it to a few places. The neighborhood is fairly upper middle class and folks were getting rid of good stuff cheap. I got 6 solid wood chairs for $5.00 a piece. Learned not to refinish them outside on a nice sunny day. The finish dried too quickly, did not smooth out the way it should and now I will have to steel wool them. Nice chairs, should be able to get a few hundred for them, once they are done. I got some real nice cherry wood chairs two years ago, they go for about $450.00 a piece and I got them for $15.00 each. The girl got them from her parents and painted them lime green and she did not want her parents to see them so she sold them real cheap. I refinished them and those I am keeping. I also refinished a table. Used an English Chestnut stain on it and it came out really nice. 

Went trout fishing. 

My son wanted us to go to his church for mother's day, so we went with him then we went out for a nice lunch.

The suckyy part is that yesterday I was just out of sorts. Kept busy but this crap keeps hitting me. My wife is doing almost everything right and I am still in shock. Emotionally drained, spent, feel almost exhausted. I was on edge yesterday and my wife and son were tip toeing around me. I even yelled at the dog.

My wife asked me last night if I wanted sex, and I just took a sleeping pill and fell asleep. I just was not in the mood and my wife gave me space.

Today is just a continuation of yesterday. I just feel exhausted mentally.

This is how I can explain it. I was prepared for D. Some of you will disagree that I was projecting that I wanted to save the marriage. I don't think I was. I wanted answers. I wanted my wife's family on board with me. I wanted to get our finances in order. I was praying for my wife's soul, not our marriage. I felt the marriage was over. Then her confession, then the OM calling me and saying he was sorry and confessing and telling me stuff for the next four days. . It really has thrown me for a tail spin.

I have had no contact with my wife's family and don't plan on it, ever, other then her younger brother, we will watch his house this weekend, and with her younger brother it will be at arms's length.

I am done with the OM. Gave him advice and got all the information I needed from him and was able to verify most of it.

I will be filling a law suit against the pastor down the road for violation of confidentiality. I have a year and have an attorney.

Giving my wife an opportunity and we shall see. I don't trust her at all but so far she has been truthful (with one exception). She will be giving me a written explanation of events going back (this is something she said she wants to do). i will see what she gives me and I will go from there.

I have put together a timeline of events from 1996 till today and will see if her story matches mine and mine is based upon what I have in my head for the most part, my gut from those times and the evidence I have now. 

I am in the process of setting up an appointment for my wife and I to see a shrink together. This will be for a consultation for my wife and I just want to make sure we use what is available and I want to know what she should be doing to get the help she needs and what steps we should be taking for her evaluation. This person has worked in sexual addictions. My wife has been in the E.R. twice in the last several weeks and saw a specialist today and the Dr. scheduled her for three proceedures, so I have not been able to confirm an appointment with the shrink until I know what my wife's medical appointmenst are going to be.

My youngest son called me on Saturday and my wife was sitting beside me and I put the phone on speaker mode. He was all excited. I asked him if he was ready to talk to his mother and he said, "No". My wife sat there and listened. My son told me that he is working on his certification and that he is the only one in his building that will have it and he was discribing to me all about it. THen he told me he found a good Mennonite girl and that they will be going to church together (they went yesterday). She lives on a small farm, can cook, etc. He was really upbeat. Then he told me he ended his friendship with his best friend, this is the one who said my wife tried to seduce him when I was in Iraq. My son told me about what happened between the two of them, other then the guy saying my wife is a *****, I will leave out the other details (not important). We (actually he talked) for about an hour. When we ended the conversation my wife broke down and cried. She said my son never talked me you like that, that is how he used to talk to me, he use to share everything with me. She blamed herself for breaking up the family, ruining her relationship with her son. She said, "Mac, you are there for our son and I am proud that he has you, and I can't wait to get that relationship back with him and I was hoping it would be this weekend". I told her that yes you blew it, you lied, you cheated, and it will take our son a while to work through it. I told her she has no one else to blame but herself. 

There is a lot more I could say about the weekend and this morning but my wife is trying very hard, saying all the right things, is very in tune with me (for the first time in forever), and I am just skeptical. My boys are doing great (my wife says it is because of me and what I have done over the past three to four months).

My wife keeps telling me that I am the only person that stuck by her during this entire ordeal, even after all the horrible things she did to me, and she is very appreciative of it and will prove to me that she will be there for me and only me. We shall see. Right now it is one step at a time. If I feel like I did yesterday and it continues then the marriage will be over, I will not be able to take it. If I can keep moving forward then there is hope for this marriage. 

I told my wife this morning I don't have hope for our marriage, I don't have joy, but I said I am trusting God and right now I am here with you and that is where I feel I should be at this time. My wife said she will prove to me that she changed.


----------



## sandc

You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

-- Matt 7:16


----------



## MattMatt

thatbpguy said:


> Thorburn, my wife was a 2-hour per day Bible reader/prayer. Deeply devout. Heavily involved in the church and morally stout. I was very much in love her and it showed. She betrayed me for 3 mos and ran off with the guy only to return 3 weeks later and vowed to repent from her sin. Months later it was betrayal #2. More repentance and vows of never letting it happen again. When I caught her again in less than a year I left.
> 
> What I am trying to say is that it makes no difference if she makes claims of being a Christian or not. She is a betrayer. We could speculate on all the reasons why but the fact she is addicted to betrayal is clear. I might add my wife got better at hiding it each time. She also told me it was easier each time for her to justify to herself. And we went through the expose and shame routine as well. Didn't make any difference. In fact, I think deep down she like being a painted woman, so to speak. Made her feel more sexy.
> 
> I don't know how many times you'll put up with this before you have had enough, but her pattern is undeniable.
> 
> Were I you, I would take her to a psychiatrist. Not a marriage counselor, but a PhD shrink and see if they can get to the bottom of it all.


An MD with a further qualification in Psychiatry.


----------



## Thorburn

sandc said:


> You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
> 
> -- Matt 7:16


James 2:18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

This verse along with the one you shared will be the proof I need in the future for me to have a successful R with my wife. Her fruit and her faith and deeds. My wife's past fruit was rotten. We will see what she produces now. 

At my other home I have fruit trees. I have grapes, raspberries, a few cherry trees, about a dozen or more apple and pear trees. Some of the pear and apple trees, I have trained to grow along a fence like grapes. My youngest son has taken them all over. They are fun but takes lots of work, pruning, following a spraying schedule, etc. I picked several antique apple trees like the Calville Blanc d'Hiver, which was one of Thomas Jefferson's favorites, but you really have to follow a spraying schedule or you don't get any apples. Too many diseases, blights, rusts, fungus', etc, in our area, and since I only have a few disease resistant trees, most of my trees date back to the 1500's and they get everything if you don't spray. I lost some nice pear trees to fire blight because I did not know what it was when it started in the one tree and I could have treated it had I known what I know now. Fire blight looked like someone took a blow torch to my pear trees. It made me sick as they were part of the group of my first fruit trees I planted.

We shall see what my wife's new found faith will produce. We shall see if her faith and deeds are consistant with what she is saying to me. For me it is too early to tell.


----------



## Machiavelli

turnera said:


> Tell that to the Baptists.


Which Baptists? There are about 800 varieties.


----------



## turnera

Whichever ones I have come up against. Generally have the same reaction to all of them.


----------



## thatbpguy

Thorburn said:


> My weekend was a weekend of good and suckyyy. Had a ton of things I wanted to get done. Accomplished some. Saturday my son and wife went out to our community yard sale. Filled my truck and her jeep with stuff and only made it to a few places. The neighborhood is fairly upper middle class and folks were getting rid of good stuff cheap. I got 6 solid wood chairs for $5.00 a piece. Learned not to refinish them outside on a nice sunny day. The finish dried too quickly, did not smooth out the way it should and now I will have to steel wool them. Nice chairs, should be able to get a few hundred for them, once they are done. I got some real nice cherry wood chairs two years ago, they go for about $450.00 a piece and I got them for $15.00 each. The girl got them from her parents and painted them lime green and she did not want her parents to see them so she sold them real cheap. I refinished them and those I am keeping. I also refinished a table. Used an English Chestnut stain on it and it came out really nice.
> 
> Went trout fishing.
> 
> My son wanted us to go to his church for mother's day, so we went with him then we went out for a nice lunch.
> 
> The suckyy part is that yesterday I was just out of sorts. Kept busy but this crap keeps hitting me. My wife is doing almost everything right and I am still in shock. Emotionally drained, spent, feel almost exhausted. I was on edge yesterday and my wife and son were tip toeing around me. I even yelled at the dog.
> 
> My wife asked me last night if I wanted sex, and I just took a sleeping pill and fell asleep. I just was not in the mood and my wife gave me space.
> 
> Today is just a continuation of yesterday. I just feel exhausted mentally.
> 
> This is how I can explain it. I was prepared for D. Some of you will disagree that I was projecting that I wanted to save the marriage. I don't think I was. I wanted answers. I wanted my wife's family on board with me. I wanted to get our finances in order. I was praying for my wife's soul, not our marriage. I felt the marriage was over. Then her confession, then the OM calling me and saying he was sorry and confessing and telling me stuff for the next four days. . It really has thrown me for a tail spin.
> 
> I have had no contact with my wife's family and don't plan on it, ever, other then her younger brother, we will watch his house this weekend, and with her younger brother it will be at arms's length.
> 
> I am done with the OM. Gave him advice and got all the information I needed from him and was able to verify most of it.
> 
> I will be filling a law suit against the pastor down the road for violation of confidentiality. I have a year and have an attorney.
> 
> Giving my wife an opportunity and we shall see. I don't trust her at all but so far she has been truthful (with one exception). She will be giving me a written explanation of events going back (this is something she said she wants to do). i will see what she gives me and I will go from there.
> 
> I have put together a timeline of events from 1996 till today and will see if her story matches mine and mine is based upon what I have in my head for the most part, my gut from those times and the evidence I have now.
> 
> I am in the process of setting up an appointment for my wife and I to see a shrink together. This will be for a consultation for my wife and I just want to make sure we use what is available and I want to know what she should be doing to get the help she needs and what steps we should be taking for her evaluation. This person has worked in sexual addictions. My wife has been in the E.R. twice in the last several weeks and saw a specialist today and the Dr. scheduled her for three proceedures, so I have not been able to confirm an appointment with the shrink until I know what my wife's medical appointmenst are going to be.
> 
> My youngest son called me on Saturday and my wife was sitting beside me and I put the phone on speaker mode. He was all excited. I asked him if he was ready to talk to his mother and he said, "No". My wife sat there and listened. My son told me that he is working on his certification and that he is the only one in his building that will have it and he was discribing to me all about it. THen he told me he found a good Mennonite girl and that they will be going to church together (they went yesterday). She lives on a small farm, can cook, etc. He was really upbeat. Then he told me he ended his friendship with his best friend, this is the one who said my wife tried to seduce him when I was in Iraq. My son told me about what happened between the two of them, other then the guy saying my wife is a *****, I will leave out the other details (not important). We (actually he talked) for about an hour. When we ended the conversation my wife broke down and cried. She said my son never talked me you like that, that is how he used to talk to me, he use to share everything with me. She blamed herself for breaking up the family, ruining her relationship with her son. She said, "Mac, you are there for our son and I am proud that he has you, and I can't wait to get that relationship back with him and I was hoping it would be this weekend". I told her that yes you blew it, you lied, you cheated, and it will take our son a while to work through it. I told her she has no one else to blame but herself.
> 
> There is a lot more I could say about the weekend and this morning but my wife is trying very hard, saying all the right things, is very in tune with me (for the first time in forever), and I am just skeptical. My boys are doing great (my wife says it is because of me and what I have done over the past three to four months).
> 
> My wife keeps telling me that I am the only person that stuck by her during this entire ordeal, even after all the horrible things she did to me, and she is very appreciative of it and will prove to me that she will be there for me and only me. We shall see. Right now it is one step at a time. If I feel like I did yesterday and it continues then the marriage will be over, I will not be able to take it. If I can keep moving forward then there is hope for this marriage.
> 
> I told my wife this morning I don't have hope for our marriage, I don't have joy, but I said I am trusting God and right now I am here with you and that is where I feel I should be at this time. My wife said she will prove to me that she changed.


Wow.

I almost don't what to say except that dealing with betrayers is so draining. What can I say except to hang in the best you can.


----------



## Thorburn

Last evening I lost it. My special needs son made a fire pit in our back yard some time ago. I checked with the fire department and they say it is fine to have a fire as long as the neighbors don't complain. My son has been burning junk wood and I have been telling him not to do that, too much smoke. So last evening he asked me to get more wood and I saw where he had put wood in the pit that I told him not to burn and I told him again not to use that wood. Then I saw my good sneakers on the back porch. I asked my wife about it. She said my son got his sneakers muddy and she gave those to him to wear. That started my rotten mood. I told her those are my good sneakers and I said I have over 6 pairs that I don't care about, why did she give him my expensive good sneakers to use to mow the yard? She said she will give him another pair until his are dry. 

I told my son not to use that wood and that his mom and I will go out and get wood for him. We got in my truck and I know a place that gives away free wood. I got some white oak. I know my wood and this stuff was dry. I came home and cut the wood and stacked it and had it ready for my son. He wanted to wait till it got dark and I finished mowing the yard. I got the yard done and went to the back of the house and there my son was with my new sneakers on, walking in the newly cut grass and he had put the junk wood on top of the white oak I cut in the fire pit. I lost it. My son started to give me back talk my wife came out and I told her why is he wearing my good sneakers and why won't he listen to me about the fire pit and the wood. I told her and him I went out and got you wood and it is not good enough. I said nothing I do is ever good enough for you and your mom. I know what the hel* I am doing and you both disrespect me. I said you wanted a fire tonight and I got you great wood but you insist in putting junk wood in there that will smoke out the neighbors. I said I am tired of telling you and your mom over and over again about the sneakers, about the wood, etc. I said again that nothing I do is ever good enough. I said I got one of the best wood out there to burn, it is seasoned and you throw junk in the fire pit and I looked at my wife and said why don't you say anything? You are letting him walk around in my good sneakers after you told me you would put them away and get him another pair, allowing him, even watching him put junk wood in the fire pit, after I told you that that wood will smoke and not burn correctly and you just think it is OK. 

I got in my truck and left. 

I drove a few miles and listened to a Tom Wait's CD, "lost at the bottom of the World", over and over again. It was just how I felt.

When I came home my wife asked me if I wanted to talk. We did. I was mad and she said she will not talk to me if I am mad. She said do I need to admit you to a hospital or take you for counseling. I said stop manipulating me, I will not put up with it. I said, I am done with counselors. You had A's in 1999, 2010, 2011 and I went in for counseling, what did you do? Nothing. You had the A's and I got help. I said I am done with couselors, I know what I need. She said i don't like it when you are angry. I said, really? I don't like you screwing other men. I don't like you spending my money on other men. She said, you nailed me. I jumped right in and said "NO the OM nailed you!". She put her head down and said "I am sorry, I used the wrong words, she said you have every right to be angry." Then she told me she has the account almost done of what she did and said she will share with me what she wrote. She said she is stuck on some things as far as dates. I said, I have the dates, don't worry about specific dates. She said that time in Sept. 2011 where she said she did not meet with the OM they were in a hotel till evening. I said that was Sept 27 and it was a Tuesday and I said I know almost everything you did the entire day, it was if I was there. I said when you have everything written down we will go over it. I said I am not in a mood to listen right now. She said, "Mac, you are my rock, the boy's rock, we are anchored to you, don't melt down, don't lose hope, your prayers have been answered, you stuck by me when I did not deserve it, don't walk away from God, I know I caused your pain, and I am sorry, I am very sorry, we need you to stay strong, give your pain to God, lay it at his feet". My wife started praying for me. It was a beautiful prayer. Perhaps the best prayer she every prayed for me, heartfelt and it spoke to my heart. I then apologized to my son. We went out and started the fire and roasted marshmellows. It was a great fire, hardly any smoke. After wards I went into the house and into the bedroom. She left the bedroom to take care of the dog. I went to bed. My wife came in and made love to me saying how sorry she was for hurting me and causing me all this pain.

This morning I called my youngest son and he gave me an earfull of what is going on in his life. I had to laugh to myself. THis is the way he use to be with his mother. I got to work and had to cut him off or he would have kept talking to me. HE told me about Sunday. He went to church with the new girl in his life. She is a Mennonite and he went to her parent's house and they had a cook out and then they went hiking. Ironic, his last two years in high school he went to a private Mennonite High School (it was his choice). I was Active Duty Army at the time and I went in Uniform to meet with the Dean. I said my son wants to enroll in your school and I want to know if me being in the Army will be a problem. The Dean assured me that it would not be a problem. With some of my son's teachers it became a problem but I warned my son about it, that some of these Mennonite folks will not like it that your dad is in the Army. He learned the hard way. One of his teachers sent him home one day for wearing a pair of my Army pants to school. Now he is dating a Mennonite girl.  I am sitting here laughing. When my son was in high school he had long dreadlocks and hung out with Mennonites, while I was Active Duty Army. I remember my wife wanted me to make my son get a hair cut and get rid of the dreads. I told her, let it go, it is a thing he is going through and he will get over it, and I remember telling her that I will not let "hair" get in between my son and me. I told her I don't like his dreads either ( they were almost down to his butt), The dreads are long gone, he has a good job, he is a desgin engineer and designs plastic bottles. Learned carpentry from the Amish. He the polar opposite of me when it comes to carpentry, he is a perfectionist (I am not). When I got my used shed a few years ago, I wanted to nail a few boards inside to firm it up, he wanted to help. We ended up taking the entire shed apart (I mean the whole thing to include the roof), spent over $400.00 in materials (I only spent $200.00 for the thing), he had me pulling out nails and renailing studs if I had the studs off by 1/8 of an inch. 

This weekend we will be down in Maryland watching my youngest BIL's house. They have nice hot tub, should be able to relax. There is a saw mill not far from their house and I am hoping to get up there and see if I can get some nice boards cheap. I know how to season the wood. I want to get some larger boards to make some furniture. I am itching to learn how to hand plane boards and might as well get some boards to start.


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## sandc

Sorry you had such a bad evening. You say your son is special needs... what are they? My son is autistic and it is SO hard to keep my temper around him sometimes. I don't always do good at that. 

Your wife at one point asked you not to turn away from God. Did she say that because you really are losing a connection with Him or because you were just mad at her? She equates anger with not having God in your life? There is such a thing as righteous anger. When she feels your anger over the affair, I believe this to be righteous anger. She deserves to feel that. You answered her correctly, IMO.

Anger over minor frustrations is something you'll have to work on. Shoes and neighbors can be replaced but not your son's heart.


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## turnera

Did your wife take your tennis shoes and wash them til they were shiny white again?

She should have. THAT would have shown compassion. Not words. Not tears. Not even prayers.


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## Kasler

Am I the only one seeing the glaring red flag with her bring up god in response to Mac's anger at her foolishness?


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## sandc

Kasler said:


> Am I the only one seeing the glaring red flag with her bring up god in response to Mac's anger at her foolishness?


No.


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## vi_bride04

Kasler said:


> Am I the only one seeing the glaring red flag with her bring up god in response to Mac's anger at her foolishness?


Nope.....

Thats not the only red flag I see either......her whole response to the situation is disrespectful and very concerning. 

And the love making session was just another ploy, IMO.


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## Thorburn

sandc said:


> Sorry you had such a bad evening. You say your son is special needs... what are they? My son is autistic and it is SO hard to keep my temper around him sometimes. I don't always do good at that.
> 
> Your wife at one point asked you not to turn away from God. Did she say that because you really are losing a connection with Him or because you were just mad at her? She equates anger with not having God in your life? There is such a thing as righteous anger. When she feels your anger over the affair, I believe this to be righteous anger. She deserves to feel that. You answered her correctly, IMO.
> 
> Anger over minor frustrations is something you'll have to work on. Shoes and neighbors can be replaced but not your son's heart.



I have been in a irritable mood the past two days and my son was pushing my buttons. Typically I can handle it but yesterday he was focused on the junk wood. This has been an issue for over a week. He gets focused on things and will not let up. He is mentally retarded, fairly high functioning, has OCD, and some other issues. A good kid, has a mind of a 12 year old. Sometimes the only way to get through to him is to get angry. Like with the firewood. All we need is one neighbor complaining and we will never be allowed to have a fire again, never, ever. No matter how many times I tell him that, he insists on trying to burn that crappy wood that smolters and smokes to high heaven. Like I said, he gets focused on things and has a hard time letting go of it. 

My wife. She can't take someone being angry with her. Nor me raising my voice at all. Last night my anger was not righteous. It was a result of feeling disrespected about the firewood, the sneakers, the whole A. I felt totally disrespected by my wife and the firewood and sneakers triggered those feelings. It was not the anger that caused her to think that I am leaving God, it is what I said, that I feel I have no hope about the marriage, that I feel inadequate, that she had caused so much pain I don't know if I will be able to make it to the other side, I told her there are times I just feel like dying, that she has made me feel like a piece of crap.

I have told her to expect me to get angry about her A. That to me is alright, within reason.

I know that leaving was the best thing to do last night. I tell my Vets to get out before they blow up.

THe main reason I am on edge is the big elephant in the room is my wife's accounting for her activities. As of today I have asked her some questions but I have not asked for much, as she says she wants to give me an accounting. I want to get it overwith, I know it will be very painful. Some people can't do it. I want to hear the truth. I want her to give an accounting because she never did. All I got over the years were lies, or half-truths or "I don't remember". She does not seem to be stalling (I thought she was), and I am not saying this to excuse her for not having it done. I was mad about this last night. She wants to get it all out and not have me come back and ask her a bunch of questions as to why she did not mention this or that and have me get mad about leaving things out. She said she got hung up on the dates. I mentioned this before, I have the dates for the most part, and I will not get upset if she says I was with the OM on the 31st when it was the 27th, that is not a big deal to me. What is a big deal to me as far as dates go is if she says we met once in October and I know it was three times, or if she says she does not remember. The other thing is she knows I know a lot more because I spoke to the OM, and I do believe he was 100% truthful about what they did and when they did it and I do believe she wants to get this behind her. She knows I will not give up. She told me she was very irritated when I kept mentioning dates, (she knew I had the proof), and she kept saying "I don't remember" and I would not take that as an adequate answer. I told her if you had mentioned that you had sex with the OM 6 times in 2011, I would have dropped it, because I had proof, but because she kept insisting that it was four times I knew she was lying. I don't want TT, nor a month from now or two years from now her telling me, oh I left this out, because I knew it would be too painful. Get it out now and be done with it.

So I am anticipating lots of pain. I do expect that once this is out I can process it, and perhaps start to finally put it all behind me. Or move on from the marriage. I will have to see.


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## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> I want to hear the truth. I want her to give an accounting because she never did.


She's stalling because she knows the *whole truth* will be more than you can bear. If you're committed to reconciliation, and if you want the truth, then you're going to have to assure her that you won't hold it against her, she will need to have FAITH in your word that you can forgive her.

T


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## kingsfan

Have you ever considered she's discovered your posts here and is just going to feed you back a story based on what you have posted here, because you have posted a lot of information about what you know about her affair(s). You did mention eearly on in this thread that she was aware of you posting on a message board, I'm not sure if she figured out it's TAM or not. If she did though and realized what you knew and what your plan was, it would explain why she did a 180, told you everything and is ready to put it in writing.


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## sandc

The timeline will ultimately help because the mind movies are fare worse than the reality. Do you have a plan to address your anger when you read her timeline? 

And has anyone posted the letter to a wayward spouse in this thread?


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## PBear

No offense, but if your son can't take instructions as simple as "don't burn the junk wood" should be be having a fire without someone ensuring he doesn't burn something important down? You obviously know him better than I do, but...

As far as your wife goes... Seems if she was serious about making amends she might place a greater effort in your happiness, whether its affair related or not. Just my $0.02...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

Tony55 said:


> She's stalling because she knows the *whole truth* will be more than you can bear. If you're committed to reconciliation, and if you want the truth, then you're going to have to assure her that you won't hold it against her, she will need to have FAITH in your word that you can forgive her.
> T


What is reaaly worse is she will limit the timeline to the facts you are more or less aware, the dates you already have in mind.

Honesty I don't buy she cheated online that time ago, then skipped to the next date, then restarted 2011.
The fact she made a pass to your sons's friend, a kid which basicaly saw growing, shines light into her dysfunction. There's way more, way more in between those dates. Remember how even crazy SIL believed she was cheating when you was deployed? You know nothing about that period.


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## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> She's stalling because she knows the *whole truth* will be more than you can bear. If you're committed to reconciliation, and if you want the truth, then you're going to have to assure her that you won't hold it against her, she will need to have FAITH in your word that you can forgive her.
> 
> T


I have talked about this with her. A few months ago when she left for a weekend to spend time with her younger brother, she took my son with her. His phone dialed my phone and they did not know it and I heard their conversation. My wife and son were arguing, my son was calling her a sl*t, cursing her out and saying "dad says I have a good heart". My wife told him, your dad will use this against me the rest of his life, I am going to be alone, and this is all I need right now is you calling me names. So I know that her mindset was not to reveal anything as we were headed for D. It was when her heart changed about D and wanted R that she knew that she had to come out with what I had asked for over the last several years and never got from her.

My wife told me that she knows if she tells me the whole truth I will get over it, that she trusts me and feels good about getting it all out, her words are "the truth will set me free". Last night I asked her three questions, I knew the answer to one and she answered them without hesitation and in my mind truthfully.


What bothers me is if I were in her shoes she would have had the account with in a few days. That would be my priority. She has told me on several ocassions that she feels that I will not hold this stuff over her head in the future and I don't plan on it.

The reason I have held onto this crap and kept bringing it up over the years is that I kept telling her that she was lying or denying things and until she comes clean I will never rest. If she does it will become a thing of the past. I think I know most of it right now from what the Om told me and the evidence I have. If there is something that is just too much to handle then I always have D as an option.

But I do not plan to hold this stuff against her after I process it and have my questions answered.


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## CEL

Did she only have one OM? What about your son's friend and all the phone calls?


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## bryanp

Your wife is one of the greatest manipulators I have ever read. From all you have written I see nothing but her attempt at limiting damage control from her side. I sincerely doubt she is remorseful at all. She is just upset that she caught caught time and again on her cheating on you.

I think your little story about the sneakers are quite symbolic. She tells you one thing ( I will give the son other shoes and take your good shoes for good keeping) and then of course does nothing which clearly shows how absolutely unimportant your feeling are to her. 

It is my take that you are a good man who is a very very foolish man to believe and allow her to continue to manipulate you for her own benefit.

She made a comment that when you get mad at her for screwing other men she threatens to take you to get admitted to a hospital. Is it me or is it possible that she is setting you up to in fact being committed in the future which would stop you from ever being able to divorce her. She is very devious and continues to be extremely toxic to you. I am fearful what you finally realize this it will be far too late for you.


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## turnera

bryanp said:


> I think your little story about the sneakers are quite symbolic. She tells you one thing ( I will give the son other shoes and take your good shoes for good keeping) and then of course does nothing which clearly shows how absolutely unimportant your feeling are to her.


Yep. She's only been 'forgiven' and allowed to stay for, what, a week? And already she has been sliding back to her me-me-me position and YOU are already feeling ignored and disrespected. What'll happen in a month?


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## Thorburn

The accounting has begun. 2011 - 9 times. I knew of 7 for sure the other two were speculation on my part. I did not have absolute proof so I was not obsessed about those dates. I just left her speak. When she said 9 times but was unsure of the exact dates I will sit down with her tomorrow and give her all 9 dates. She does remember where, more hotels then she told me in 2011, early 2012. 

It was all I could take. So we will continue with her story tomorrow. Like I said, I can only take so much.

She is still denying that there was any physical sex with the OM in 1999. She did have cyber sex with four guys on the internet which I had the key logger info on them. 

We went an got a hot tub tonight from three college kids that have to move. Cheap and we got extra help loading it and it unloaded real easy.


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## turnera

T, you know what bothers me more about your wife than anything else, than all the cheating (and there's a LOT!) and lying and sneaking and blameshifting?

That she said, in the same breath as her 'confession' to God and everyone else, that she 'knows' you will forgive her.

I would be insulted as hell if I were you to hear that. She KNOWS you will forgive her? How dare she say that?


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## Thorburn

CEL said:


> Did she only have one OM? What about your son's friend and all the phone calls?


My wfie started giving me her account last night with the one OM from 2011 till about April 2013. We did not get through it all. She mentioned 9 times in 2011 (I knew of 7, 100% sure but the other two, I actually have the dates but not the proof. I suspected that she hooked up on those times but could not prove it and I just let it go), now I know. She remembered what hotels, where, etc on each of those occasion, no memory issues.

There was no physical contact from Nov. 29 2011 till about July 2012. New Phone in December and lots of texting. Here is the problem for me with their renewed hook up after 8 months of not beign together. She knows the day of the week, what she was doing but can't recall the date or the month. She told me she knows this will be an issue with me. She did not meet for over 8 months and does not remember. She told me that she knows I will think that this is significant, that she should remember the date. She claims she does not remember. Anyway, I am not letting this go. Most of the dates in 2012 and 2013 she remembers and where. This first hook up after months of being apart is puzzling. She remembers where (In a field) and what they did, but is fuzzy on the month and day.

The following she did not talk about last night and we will get to this stuff at some point. 
Taking the time from 2011 till today. One major OM. There seems to have been no other physical contact with other men with the exception of the theologian in April, 2013 and based upon the emails and texts there was dinner and that was it. He does seem to have had other intentions, as he mentioned several times how lonely he is, but the conversations between them were fairly boring stuff. They did talk about going out to dinner and a ball game in the future. There was several phone calls to other men, text messages and emails after February 6th when I told her I am going to pursue D. In her conversation with the OM on February 6 2013 she mentioned that there were other men that wanted to hook up with her (Not sure how these men contacted her - she did not have facebook during this time The OM asked her is she was going to do it and she replied something along the the lines of "I might". Her initial responce to my question about this was she told me she was trying to make the OM jealous. I do not buy it. The men she contacted were all after I told her I was going to D her. She said in her mind we were separated and she wanted to meet new people. This is what she told me over a week ago.

The fireman she was interested in stopped contacting her months ago, she kept after him and he just did not reply. When I sent him a message pretending to be my wife, he called my wife nuts and that is why he stopped contacting her. 


So far all I could take was a big brush of 2011 till 2013 with the OM. Tonight I plan on getting into the dates. I have them. I also want to talk about these other men. Since she did not have FB till after Feb. 7th 2013 how did they contact her and how did they know about her? I do not believe she did it to make the OM jealous. There is more to this story and we will get there.

Like I said, I can only take so much.


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## sandc

Take it as you can. Keep praying about it.


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## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> Since she did not have FB till after Feb. 7th 2013 how did they contact her and how did they know about her? I do not believe she did it to make the OM jealous. There is more to this story and we will get there.


It has to be on another phone, I looked at her laptop, there was nothing there, and if you recall, her history on the laptop was intact going back to Sept of last year.

T


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## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> It has to be on another phone, I looked at her laptop, there was nothing there, and if you recall, her history on the laptop was intact going back to Sept of last year.
> 
> T


Not sure. Her story so far is that she said that to make the OM jealous. When I stated to her last night, this does not make sense. I said you started your new FB's after Feb. 7th 2013 when I confronted you with the recording. You did not have FB till after that. I know about the guys after this time but who are you referring to on February 7th and how were they contacting you? She said, you are right, I did not have FB, I don't know, I have to listen to the recording to get the context. She said she only used the phone for the OM prior to Feb. 7th and then only used it to contact a few guys after I threatened D. She claims to have destroyed the phone and I will never know for sure. It was a trac phone and I can't find anyway to get the info. All the inforamtion online said it can't be done, without the phone.

I was so piss*d last night. My wife cried and cried. 

She has been calling me all day and I will not respond. I am leaving work soon and we are supposed to go to Maryland tonight to spend the weekend. My son and dog are going with us and I just don't feel like going. 

My youngest son said he is ready to speak to his mother and we set it up for tomorrow morning, my wife does not know about it yet. 

I just don't know what I am doing yet. Head home and see what happends. I know she has the car packed up.

All I got so far is an overview of 2011, it was all I could take.


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## bfree

In my mind I don't see how you can reconcile even with what you already know. They weren't in contact for 8 months and then started up again while you were supposedly reconciling? You can't blame the fog or anything like that. That was just willfully disregarding you and the marriage. She should have known that any more transgressions and it would be the end of the marriage and yet she reinitiated contact after 8 months? Then she talks about other men to make HIM jealous! Wow, just wow. Thorburn you know I am extremely pro reconciliation but how do you get past this? And since you began this new path you have started drinking again and had a bad argument with your son who you had been making such progress with. I must admit I'm very concerned for you.


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## sandc

I must agree with bfree here. You were in R when she cheated on you last time. Does she seem any more sincere this time around? Did she seem sincere on your last attempt at R? Does she understand why she has zero credibility?


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## Curse of Millhaven

My heart goes out to you for all the pain you are continuing to suffer; I do not know how you endure it. I’ve only been cheated on once (that I know of) and it was devastating. I won’t go into detail because it was pretty tragic and scarred me for life, but I tried very hard to forgive and to reconcile not only our relationship but also my feelings about who I thought this person was and reckon with the person I was becoming. Ultimately I was unable to and I paid dearly for it. So I wish you Godspeed in navigating this minefield and while I have no real insight to offer, you have my continued support and hope for your wellbeing and strength. 

You mentioned listening to Tom Waits…I absolutely love him and have listened to Rain Dogs, Heart of Saturday Night, and a lot of his earlier records more than anyone ever should. These are two of my favorite songs of his dealing with hopeless love and loss and also a lighthearted song that I thought was apropos (no disrespect intended!)…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q78ppqlOl1U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hbC-_79p7I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azw0JvYmj7Q


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## Thorburn

sandc said:


> I must agree with bfree here. You were in R when she cheated on you last time. Does she seem any more sincere this time around? Did she seem sincere on your last attempt at R? Does she understand why she has zero credibility?


I wrote a long post about last Thursday night and then this weekend (deleted it). My son, my wife and our dog spent the weekend in Maryland at her youngest brother's house as he and the rest of my wife's family are out West at our nieces' wedding. 

Thursday evening on the way home from work my wife said something that really triggered me. The conversation that followed from that evening through the weekend was ugly but good. Ugly from me and it needed said. I don't regret saying a word. Based upon her words to me and her actions that followed it was good. She could have walked out of the room but sat and listened. Everything so far leads me to think she gets it for the first time in years. 

I arraigned for my youngest son and her to meet early on Saturday, he has refused to talk to his mother for months and they were very close prior to the discovery in February, and the events of last year. We did not stay long but the two of them reconciled a little. He is still skeptical. My wife did not sugar coat a thing, did not blameshift. She took full responsibility for what she has done. 

My wife told me that she wanted to give me a great weekend and pamper me. She would say this kind of thing to me last year, promise me the moon and then turn around and say, "Oh, I forgot" and not follow through with things she told me she was going to do. Well she gave me a great weekend. I triggered a few times and she stuck with me. Saturday night was horrible for me. I will leave out the details but it got really ugly around 2 A.M. My son was awake and he got in my face (long story) and I had it. My wife woke up, intervened, my son apologized and my wife really came through for me. All I will say is that my reaction to the events of Saturday night was not wrong, my wife understood what I was going through and my son pushing my buttons was overwhelming and my wife intervened. Last year she would not have done it.

*Does she seem any more sincere this time around?* Yes, for once in her life I believe she is sincere. I remain skeptical. She has told one lie that I had a poor reaction to it a few weeks ago, but so far I have gotten the truth on everything she has told me thus far.

*Did she seem sincere on your last attempt at R? * Not at all. Looking back from D-day November 2011 till her confession a few weeks ago there was no sincerity at all. Just smoke and mirrors. Fake repentance. Lies, deceit, never ending the A. That is why I was so angry. I knew the dates of when she was with the OM in 2011 and she kept denying it. She would not talk about 2010. She kept lying to me and I thought things were OK, but they weren't. I could feel that she was not into me, she had no respect for me. I kept giving and giving and she was not giving me much back. She was playing me big time and I was miserable. Looking back on late 2011, then 2012, and into 2013 she was not sincere at all. 

*Does she understand why she has zero credibility?* She tells me over and over again that she created this mess. That she has caused her family (my sons and I) not to trust her. She states that she understands why we do not believe her. She says that she will prove to us (my sons and I) that she is sincere this time, that she has changed. She says she will be accountable, truthful, and will gain our trust. 

Ironically, as I have put together things in her life it is pitiful. Her support was, one mentally ill older sister, and one very weak younger brother, three nieces (and they were lying to her about wanting to go out - they never went out), people from HS that she had not been in contact with in over 30 years, a GF that she knew growing up, the OM (who could care less about my wife), a guy we knew in college and a few guys she met on FB in February and March. Even some of her so called HS friends that she contacted knew better then get involved. I saw the emails and frankly it was sad. Some of the guys on FB were calling her "nuts". Only one of her so called HS friends have followed her on our joint FB. All the others are gone. I seriously think they feel burned by her lies. She wrote to them and apologized and only one replied back and stuck with her. And there was one college girl friend that my wife and I were both writing to during this time. She is a solid person and listened to both of us and she stuck by my wife and gave her good solid counsel. She never bought my wife's lies and she believed me. She kept telling me that my wife needs a good friend. 

My wife told me if the pastor told her family things she shared with him and his wife she will also bring a lawsuit against him. I did not ask my wife to do this. She will be talking to her younger brother to see what her famly said at the wedding.

My wife says her family is important to her and she says her family is her sons and me. 

My wife shared with me her disappointment with her older brothers and sisters. She said she wrote them over two weeks ago asking for their forgiveness and has not heard anything back. I said, they are dead to me. I said they supported me until a pastor, that her oldest brother met once, and her other older brother never met, sent an email lying about me and they believed him and did not even bother to ask me about it. I said your family is all about gossip and secrets. I said when our deceased BIL wanted to tell me about his suspicions when I was in Iraq the family forbade him to tell me. I said your older brother got mad at me when I reported this pastor to the district for lying and breeching confidentiality. They threw away over 30 years of friendship over a lying pastor. I told my wife, you are upset over them not replying to your request for forgiveness and you expect me to have sympathy after what they did to me. Your middle sister is nuts, your oldest sister is a prescription drug abuser and our niece and her husband are lying to you about why she has not been in contact with you during this entire ordeal. She told the family she wants to have nothing to do with you and yet you believe them when they tell you it is only because she has been ill. The truth of the matter is her husband and daughters tip toe around her drug usage, cover up for her and lie to you about why she does not meet with you. I said the last time you saw her was at our BIL's funeral last May and you told the OM that you love this sister and have so much fun with her. yet the truth of the matter is you have not done anything with her in over a year, did not do much with her prior to our BIL's funeral, complained to me about her for years. I said, where have your older brothers been in your life. Your oldest brother has not talked to you for over a year. Your middle brother thinks you are nuts. Seriously, other then the youngest one (I owe him a few thousand) I am done with her family and once I get the youngest one paid off, I will no longer watch his house when he goes on his trips. He has a trip planned to India soon and I am hoping to pay him off asap. I just want them all out of my life. They say that blood is thicker then water and it may be, but I also told my wife I have given up my family over hers for years. Holidays, weddings, funerals, etc have been almost entirely her family. I said my family have given me advice during these times. My mother (a saint) prayed for us and kept her nose out of our business. My oldest brother (converted to Judaism years ago) kept telling me to try to work things out, he has been married three times, knows the ugliness of D, is very successful, knows everyone (has spent time with Celine Dion in her Florida home), my older sister would listen to me and gave me a back up plan to move in with my mother if things went really bad for me. I said my family never gossiped about us. They are not judgemental and love you. Even my BIL J told me with his New England wisdom to try to work things out and he knew how bad my wife acted. I told my wife I would put my non-believing family members against hers any day of the week. That they have more common sense, are all non-judgmental, would forgive my wife if I did, and would continue to love her. That they all went through D. I said my family understands that people are not perfect and they are the salt of the earth. 

i told my wife your family turned on you and me and their silence says it all. 

I told my wife if you have turned to God then what does the Bible say about leaving your mother and your father and cleaving to your spouse? I said you never left your family. I said you demanded it of me yet you never did leave yours. I said if you are sincere in your desire to serve God then it is time to leave them and focus on your real family, our boys and me. I told my wife her family (brothers, sisters, mother, father) always came at my expense. I told her last week end it with them. I told her as far as I am concerned they are dead and I mean dead to me. I told her if she wants a relationship with them it will be without me and I will not be part of it. I said some of them have been involved in your illicit A's, covered up your infidelity, lied, gossipped, and turned their backs on the both of us. So if you are sincere about working things out with me then end it with them. I said, I have had little to do with my family over the years because of you. I said you always wanted to do things with your family other then a yearly vacation with my parents, we did very little with my family. 

She says she just wants to focus on the boys and me.

i don't know what will happen down the road with her family. Right now I don't care. For me, they can all go pound sand. I told my wife if one of them dies I will not go to their funeral. I said after what you did to me and our BIL (who considered me his best friend) and he died last year and we had not talked in years, because my wife and her sister broke up our relationship. I told my wife you went to his funeral, told me to stay home, made up with your sister by lying about me, and left me in the dust. I said the next time someone in your family dies you can stay home and let the dead bury the dead. 

My wife has said over and over again that she has caused this mess and has claimed that it is all her fault. I can't agree more.


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## sandc

I am hoping for your sake and for hers that she is telling the truth now. I'll keep praying for you both.


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## bryanp

Sorry but this is a great deal more than a "mess" she has created. I find that these are interesting terms that she utilizes. A mess seems so minor. I wish you luck and you will do and believe what you wish to do and believe. I honestly think that you would seriously have to be a masochist to continue but it is indeed your life so good luck to you.


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## carmen ohio

Dear Thorburn,

I've been following your thread since the beginning but have not posted until now, mostly because I didn't think I could add much to what others were telling you but also because, well, at times I thought you were a bit crazy. I don't think that any more. Rather, I think you've got your head screwed on straighter than most.

Of all the threads I've read on TAM, I can't think of any in which the BS had to deal with more adversity and heartache than you have had to. Nor can I think of a BS who has dealt with his or her problems as honestly and unselfishly as you have. On top of this, you live your faith better than most that I know, yours truly included. The way you have responded to your WW's infidelity reminds me of our Lord's admonition to be "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

You've made mistakes along the way and misjudged your WW and others at times, but you have remained open to the truth and have corrected yourself when the truth was revealed to you. You've listened to the advice of others but have had the courage to do what you thought was right -- even when others were screaming that you had it all wrong. You've continued to support your children even though they, at times, have been less than kind or supportive (to say the least).

I don't know if your WW is genuinely penitent or, if she is, whether she will be able to put her past behind her once and for all and become a good wife to you but, if that is what you want, I pray that it happens.

May God continue to bless you.


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## Thorburn

carmen ohio said:


> Dear Thorburn,
> 
> I've been following your thread since the beginning but have not posted until now, mostly because I didn't think I could add much to what others were telling you but also because, well, at times I thought you were a bit crazy. I don't think that any more. Rather, I think you've got your head screwed on straighter than most.
> 
> Of all the threads I've read on TAM, I can't think of any in which the BS had to deal with more adversity and heartache than you have had to. Nor can I think of a BS who has dealt with his or her problems as honestly and unselfishly as you have. On top of this, you live your faith better than most that I know, yours truly included. The way you have responded to your WW's infidelity reminds me of our Lord's admonition to be "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."
> 
> You've made mistakes along the way and misjudged your WW and others at times, but you have remained open to the truth and have corrected yourself when the truth was revealed to you. You've listened to the advice of others but have had the courage to do what you thought was right -- even when others were screaming that you had it all wrong. You've continued to support your children even though they, at times, have been less than kind or supportive (to say the least).
> 
> I don't know if your WW is genuinely penitent or, if she is, whether she will be able to put her past behind her once and for all and become a good wife to you but, if that is what you want, I pray that it happens.
> 
> May God continue to bless you.


I don't know if your WW is genuinely penitent or, if she is, whether she will be able to put her past behind her once and for all and become a good wife to you but, if that is what you want, I pray that it happens.

May God continue to bless you.[/QUOTE]

I had a friend stop by the office yesterday. He called me and said he was in the area and wanted to stop by and chat. He knows the story. He wanted to see first hand how I was doing. He called me a saint. My wife last night called me a righteous man. I am neither. I am a man of unclean lips, not a holy man, not a saint nor am I righteous. 

I was not in a good mood last night. I came home, ate dinner with my wife then I changed and I sanded one of the tables that we got. Turns out that the top is made of White Oak. Once I removed the finish and sanded it down it really came out nice. The edge had black paint on it and my wife had gotten a stripper with citrus in it. I tried it and man that stuff worked very well. My neighbor came over and I would had finished the table but we chatted for quite a while as I hand sanded (didn't want ot use my power sanders while talking). So tonight I wll finish the table. I also wanted to start running eletrical wire in the sunroom. I am so behind on that project. I have to get the wiring done before I can hang any more barn beams and finish putting up any more boards. 

My wife told me last night that I am on the other side, that my pain is lessening. She told me that she feels like scum, crap, that she is low as you can get. As we were sitting on our back porch steps watching Rudy (our Golden Retriever) she was telling me how she hurt me. I was not in the mood to offer her any sympathy at all. She told me she prayed for me throughout the day. She must had picked up on my feelings and said in a very soft way, that she does not expect sympathy from me, and said she wants to focus on my pain.

As she is telling me her story, having the recordings and years worth of evidence it is all just freaken hard to put it into perspective. Here is the woman I have loved with everything I had, the mother of my two boys and she just kept cheating like it was nothing. 

To add to all this I was ready to leave. Planning a new life without her. Excited in many ways to meet new women and have fun. 

Looking back on the drama with her family and the pastor is almost comical. Them trying to control me and at times being sucessful in their attempts. I have learned.

Right now I am just in auto pilot. Seeing what will happen. Maybe I will not be able to continue with my wife. If I had to decide right now I would say no way. But my thoughts go hither and yon. 

I have enough projects to keep me busy and I am taking next week off to get things done around the house.

I may plan a trip to Scotland later this year and may go myself. 

I still have to get my professional liscense and am slowly working on that. My head is better able to focus. But I just don't have the spark for my wife anymore.

I do see a significant change in her. I see it, feel it and believe it but I don't know if that will ever be good enough for me. There may be too much damage.

We shall see.


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## turnera

Very typical. While she's wayward, your instinct is to rope her back in, panic. Once she resets herself on being your wife, you no longer have that panic, and you can start to feel all the other things you've been holding off. Give yourself a time limit, like the end of the year or something, to see how you feel.


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## Aunt Ava

Thorburn said:


> My wife told me last night that I am on the other side, that my pain is lessening. Really? She had the chutzpah to say this? Did she tell you when you will be over it too?
> 
> 
> I may plan a trip to Scotland later this year and may go myself.
> Go to Scotland, by yourself. You need the respite.


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## Tony55

Drop Scotland, secure your finances, you don't want to find yourself in the same situation you did earlier with your vehicle inspection sticker and the other financial issues. Big vacations are for people with big bankbooks, don't fall for the vacation crap and get yourself into debt over a trip to Scotland.

T


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## LostViking

Tony55 said:


> Drop Scotland, secure your finances, you don't want to find yourself in the same situation you did earlier with your vehicle inspection sticker and the other financial issues. Big vacations are for people with big bankbooks, don't fall for the vacation crap and get yourself into debt over a trip to Scotland.
> 
> T


I agree. Scotland is expensive. The food, the lodging, everything. You will need lots of throwaway money which I doubt you have Thorburn. 

In fact any big ticket items should be off limits until you decide about the future of your marriage. If you need a vacation go visit Vermont or Maine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy

Thorburn said:


> My wife. She can't take someone being angry with her. Nor me raising my voice at all. * Last night my anger was not righteous.* It was a result of feeling disrespected about the firewood, the sneakers, the whole A. I felt totally disrespected by my wife and the firewood and sneakers triggered those feelings.


I can't help but note that she uses your imperfection to avoid looking at her own. You are not allowed to be human. When you are, the spotlight must be turned on you. Only when you are perfect does the spotlight turn, at which point she invokes God and forgiveness. 

Consider this when dealing with her.


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## bfree

Tony55 said:


> Drop Scotland, secure your finances, you don't want to find yourself in the same situation you did earlier with your vehicle inspection sticker and the other financial issues. Big vacations are for people with big bankbooks, don't fall for the vacation crap and get yourself into debt over a trip to Scotland.
> 
> T


Take a trip to Nova Scotia instead. Its cheaper and you won't know the difference.


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## bfree

LostViking said:


> I agree. Scotland is expensive. The food, the lodging, everything. You will need lots of throwaway money which I doubt you have Thorburn.
> 
> In fact any big ticket items should be off limits until you decide about the future of your marriage. If you need a vacation go visit Vermont or Maine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Vermont would be nice. Its beautiful in the summer and there are loads of art galleries and the like. Your wood refinishing hobby would fit right in. Plus you can bring home maple syrup.


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## turnera

Just rent a popup tent and go camping all over the place.


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## LostViking

bfree said:


> Vermont would be nice. Its beautiful in the summer and there are loads of art galleries and the like. Your wood refinishing hobby would fit right in. Plus you can bring home maple syrup.


My second wife and I went to Vermont in 2007. It was wonderful. We went in the fall when the leaves were changing and they were harvesting syrup. Beautiful place. Expensive, but nowhere near what a plane flight and a week's stay in Scotland would be. I lived in Glasgow for a year when I was in college and basically starved. After lodging and school expenses I had no money. Ate a lot of noodles. Scotland looks a lot like where I grew up so it was not a big deal to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Very typical. While she's wayward, your instinct is to rope her back in, panic. Once she resets herself on being your wife, you no longer have that panic, and you can start to feel all the other things you've been holding off. Give yourself a time limit, like the end of the year or something, to see how you feel.


Thanks Turnera. You know I did that last year with D, gave it time. After d-day Nov. 2011 I was told not to make any hasty decisions about D or R. I knew I had every right to D her and I started the paperwork. I gave her till August 2012. I don't remember if I shared this or not here but I never shared it with my wife. Things seemed to be going OK in August, but in reality they weren't. 
False R big time. I don't see it this time (false R).

The problem is me. I really do not know how I can get over some of the stuff she has shared with me. If I tell you here on TAM it will just be gross what my wife did to me. 

My reality is that I wanted the truth and I believe I am getting it. My wife keeps telling me that everyone gave up on her except me and that she will always be grateful for that. I told her I was no longer holding out any hope for our marriage, I felt it was over and I was done with it, my only concern was her soul. seems to be on the right path in that regard and I feel I accomplished my work in regards to her soul.

I have really been reading the Scriptures and have gained some new insights. Nothing earth shattering but certainly a new perspective on the reality of life. I remember when I was not a believer. My grandfather died in 1975. He fell off a ladder and broke his neck. I loved him. My world crashed. He had just put a new roof on his barn by himself and was working a PT job as a janitor at a school and fell from a ladder putting in a light bulb. He was 75 years old. He would take me fishing and hunting. All I remember about that summer in 75 was a drunken blur. Out with my firends drinking whiskey almost every night. Feeling sorry for myself. He loved his farm, his family and was a hard working man. Loved the outdoors. Took me out hunting for snapping turtles (I remember how he had me catch a turtle when I was ten years old and I was scared to death, that thing tried to bite my arm off, yet my grandfather knew what he was doing and talked me through the whole process of grabbing it's tail and putting it in a burlap bag). I love turtle soup till this day. My grandpa would make it. Perhaps the lessons I learned on my grandpa's knee, and lessons he taught me when we were out hunting together. He did not take all his grandchildren out hunting with him and we all hunted. In many ways I felt special. He had a way of making all his grand kids feel special and we all have fond memories of grandpa. I would give anything to go back to those days, of him smoking his pipe in his living room, helping him pick bugs off of string bean plants, hunting copperheads on his farm, carrying his old double barrel 12 gauge shotgun, while he carried his nice 30/6 with a scope, him giving me a "snort" from his whiskey flask when I would get cold out hunting when I was 14, he always made me feel like a man. By his life and example, family was everything, and everything to him was his family. I wish he was still around, he would know what to say to me. I know what my grandmother would say, "Mac, you can work it out, God is bigger then anything you will ever face and all your problems are small compared to God." Just seems so unfair that some of the wisest people in your life are not around when you need them.


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## Thorburn

bfree said:


> Vermont would be nice. Its beautiful in the summer and there are loads of art galleries and the like. Your wood refinishing hobby would fit right in. Plus you can bring home maple syrup.


Been to Vermont many times. My older sister lived there. Her ex owned a furniture company and claimed that the Ethan Allen company stole their designs and caused them to go bankrupt in the 70's. My sister lives not far away in in Western Mass.


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## LostViking

To be honest the only parts of Scotland I liked were the rural areas. 

The cities are bleak and a bit dingy. That's was Glasgow and this was also 25 years ago. Maybe things have improved. Edinburgh is very nice especially if you like history.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> My second wife and I went to Vermont in 2007. It was wonderful. We went in the fall when the leaves were changing and they were harvesting syrup. Beautiful place. Expensive, but nowhere near what a plane flight and a week's stay in Scotland would be. I lived in Glasgow for a year when I was in college and basically starved. After lodging and school expenses I had no money. Ate a lot of noodles. Scotland looks a lot like where I grew up so it was not a big deal to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I won't spend the money though I can stay just about anywhere in the world for about $369.00 for 7 nights and 8 days, through the military. But the airfare and food would take it's toll. 

So far all my vacation plans are to just stay at home and work on projects. Refinish furniture, sell them and get out of debt as quickly as I can. 

If needed I can go to Richmond to visit my brother or Mass. to visit my sister if I need to get away.

I am going to a Blue grass festival in Gettysburg in August with my youngest son. He has a hard shell Scamp, camper. He is taking his banjo, guitars and mandolin. Me I will just enjoy being with him. I got him the banjo and mandolin and his first guitar.


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## Shaggy

It rains in Scottland. A lot, that's why they've got the whiskey.

Get your finances in great shape and only then consider it.


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## LostViking

Rain and wind are good for you. One thing I can say about Scotland is that the people are terrific.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

LostViking said:


> Rain and wind are good for you. One thing I can say about Scotland is that the people are terrific.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Never said otherwise. The haggis also fills your belly.


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## sandc

Shaggy said:


> It rains in Scottland. A lot, that's why they've got the whiskey.
> 
> Get your finances in great shape and only then consider it.


It doesn't always rain there. There was that one day that the sun almost came out. They wrote a song about it and play it on the bagpipes to this day.


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## bfree

Hey Thorburn, ever been to Cadillac Mountain in Bar Harbor Maine? I watched the sunrise over the ocean one summer morning from the peak. If you don't believe in God before seeing that you will after. I had no words and it took my breath away.


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## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Never said otherwise. The haggis also fills your belly.


I love haggis. I was planning on taking a trip to the Highlands this year before all this crap came about. I had a nice place selected. Now those plans are all on hold.


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## MattMatt

Thorburn said:


> I love haggis. I was planning on taking a trip to the Highlands this year before all this crap came about. I had a nice place selected. Now those plans are all on hold.


But only drink single malt! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

bfree said:


> Hey Thorburn, ever been to Cadillac Mountain in Bar Harbor Maine? I watched the sunrise over the ocean one summer morning from the peak. If you don't believe in God before seeing that you will after. I had no words and it took my breath away.


My sister's husband is from Maine. If I asked him about Bar Harbor he would tell me "you can't get there from here", lol. Never been to Maine. My wife and I vacationed in New Hampshire a few times early in the marriage.

Right now vacations are on hold. I gave her trips last year to Cancun and the Virgin Islands and she was having sex between these trips with the OM. Same thing in 2011, and 2010. Disney twice, Fort Lauderdale, Outter Banks, Hilton Head (twice), Jersey Shore, Williamsburg, and a host of other trips. Only to find out she was emailing, texting or talking to the OM or OMs during some of these trips.

I don't even have a desire to take her to ball games and we now live a few miles from the ball park. My wife is a huge fan. I wanted to take her to a game a few weeks ago and that is when she lied about something and I did not follow through with the tickets. I remember telling her if she wants to go then go but I am not in the mood. She was also planning on going to a game with the theologian and I brought this up. I believe my wife sees it as a trigger for me now and is just advoiding talking about going to a game. I do plan on taking her next week as a surprise, I will take my son as well.

Last night and today was/is hard for me. I took my wife out for dinner last night as she is going to have a procedure done tomorrow and can't eat today. We had a good time but then I triggered last night. I did not get angry I just shut down and took a shower and went to bed. My wife asked me what was wrong and I told her. She told me over and over again how sorry she is. The same thing this morning, she kept telling me that she wants to make everything up to me. 

I feel like I have been punched. One day at a time.


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## SaltInWound

Thorburn said:


> One day at a time.


That is all you can do right now. Stay strong.


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## karole

How are you Thornburn?


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## Thorburn

karole said:


> How are you Thornburn?


1. The pastor. Still don't know what I will do with him. Part of me wants to file a tort claim against him for vilolation of confidentiality. My wife believes my version of what I shared with the pastor. He told her I never brought up certain things, which is BS. We met three times and the second and third time were discussions about those things that he said I never mentioned. When confronted he admitted to forgetting those things, but never cleared it up with my wife.

2. My wife's family. Her yougest brother is the only one who has been in contact with her and that has only been very sparse, since early May. My wife sent out a brief message over two weeks ago and there was no response. She wants to send out another email today or tomorrow taking full responsibility for what she did. I support this but I keep telling her that I am finished with her family. She said she will show me the email before she sends it. She stated to me last night that she does not want to go into detail with her family (which is fine with me).

3. Her "friends". Over the past two weeks some confronted me via FB and it was nasty stuff. I set one straight and my wife set the others straight. At least two apologized to me. One of her old HS friends remained on our joint FB account (she apologized to me) and stated that when my wife was sharing her story she said it did not make sense but she felt my wife was being abused. After my wife called her and explained things this friend wrote me an apology. Her other "friends" headed for the hills and they have not contacted her. She asked me last night if she can contact her one friend. This is the one that we had a big argument over in early 2012. I have found out that she was telling my wife to ditch the OM and work on the marriage. She kept telling my wife that she does not know me and that the OM only wants one thing and he is getting it. I was able to verify this. Her "friends" were all basically from her HS from over 30 years ago and I know that they were communicating to each other and I suspect that the one guy I told off shared with them my lengthy email detainling the truth. He basically apologized. My wife has shared with me several times over the past weeks that now she has no friends. The other night she mentioned this when we were at a store and I said, "Do you know how much sympathy I have for you having no friends now?" She said, "Zero". I said, "Correct". I said you did this to yourself by your lies and deceit and all your "friends" are gone.

4. We shut down our antique business. Since our move the co-op is about 80 miles away and my wife was using it as an excuse to hook up with the OM. She came up with the suggestion after her confession to end the business. We did last week.

5. My wfie got very sick last week so I was not able to accomplish most of what I wanted to do. She caught what our oldest son had the week before. I really wanted to spend some time with her talking about her A's but just couldn't. She went to work today but still is not completely over the flu. I was hoping that taking last week off I would have quite a bit of time to sit and talk. Due to her illness it did not happen. I did ask a few questions from time to time and she answered them.

6. Got some things done around the house. Not as much as I wanted due to many distractions. 

7. My wife. It is hard to put into words but she has changed. What she is doing for me seems to be coming from her heart and not out of obligation (if this makes sense). She answers all questions without hesitation. She has a new attitude towards me. Has taken full responsibility for what she has done. Has not blameshifted one thing. Has been transparent and fully accountable. She is there for me. I feel that for the first time in our marriage she is fully committed to me. 

8. Me. I am in intense pain. The stuff she did to me, said, etc. is beyond words. I have told her several times that I am not sure I will be able to get over it. I said I am trying to work things out but that it is tough. There are days where I just keep busy and work on projects till I can barely move. She helps me quite a bit on things. I am glad we got the cheap little hot tub. We relax every night in it. I have triggered. Last Tuesday I got pretty drunk. I had a very bad day as she was at work and I was running errands and nothing was working out for me. It just seemed like everything came crashing down on me. I drove to Delaware to pick up some items to surpise her and the store did not have the items (after I paid for them online). The girl apologized for the mistake. Then it went from bad to worse (all in my mind). On my way home I just had a melt down. Stopped at a liquor store and started drinking. By the time I got home my wife was there and got mad at me for being drunk. I did not yell at her, but I told her I can't take it. She talked to me for a long time saying this was all her fault but that I can't be drinking as it will not help a thing. I remember leaving at one point and pulling off the road and taking a nap. When I got home she was in bed and I passed out in the sun room. All I remember is at one point in the night she found me and took me to bed. She was already not feeling well and got really sick the following days. I talked with a conselor who shared with me that they believe my wife has changed but that it may be too late for me. That only time will tell whether I can get over this. We discussed last year. I told the counselor that I feel like a fool for trying to work things out only to find out my wife was still with the OM. The counselor said I was not ready to give up on the marriage and that this year when I was ready my wife turned. The counselor said right now it is not about my wife but me. Can I accept her change? Can I ever trust her again? Can I ever get over what she has put me through? I don't have the wow factor when I am around my wife like I use to have. In many ways I just feel like I am just going through the motions. In the past when I took time off work we would go places but like last week I do not plan on going anywhere. There is enough stuff to be done on the house to keep me busy and when I look back on our trips I feel they were all for naught. Right now we are repairing our finances. My wife feels responsible for this and is working hard. I am doing more in this regard. For a while I just did not care. Now we have some breathing room and things are looking very well for us financially. If things continue the way they are we will be fine in a few months. Right now we have a cushion. As far as the marriage is concerned I am not sure. I have had rotten days but try to keep them to myself. I had a rotten day yesterday. Got home from work and we worked on doing bills online. I was just snippy. I apologized later and told my wife I had a rotten day and did not feel like being around her. She came over and gave me a long hug and told me how much I mean to her. We got in the hot tub, took a shower and went to bed. We pary together and read the Scriptures which has meant a lot to me but I am just feeling numb. 

In many ways I feel vindicated. I have gotten the truth. Her "friends" really weren't her "friends". Her family has turned their back on my wife and that is a puzzle to me in many ways. I had imagined (wrongly) that my wife had support, but no one came to her rescue (except me), and in fact they abandoned her. My youngest son reconsiled with her due to my effort. I have a good relationship with my odest son. I have found that I have some very good friends. My family gave me great support. I do not say any of this gloating. I have been humbled. Many of the things that I thought about my wife were false. She has lost a great deal. Her fake image of herself has been shattered. She had built this image of being the victim, abused, manipulated, and controlled. And that image is smashed to pieces. Her years of lying seem to have come to an end. If my wife has the ability to make deep changes and restore trust then there is hope for this marriage. If she can't then my marriage will not survive this.


----------



## PBear

If I recall correctly, this is the second posting that you've admitted to DUI. No matter what your wife did to you, you need to own your own issues and deal with that. I do wish you and your family well, but you're putting a lot of innocent people and your own future and welfare at stake. And you would have nobody to blame but yourself. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sandc

PBear said:


> If I recall correctly, this is the second posting that you've admitted to DUI. No matter what your wife did to you, you need to own your own issues and deal with that. I do wish you and your family well, but you're putting a lot of innocent people and your own future and welfare at stake. And you would have nobody to blame but yourself.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can't like this enough. If you want to get drunk and kills yourself that's fine. But don't take innocent parties with you. Keep it off the road. God bless.


----------



## LostViking

PBear said:


> If I recall correctly, this is the second posting that you've admitted to DUI. No matter what your wife did to you, you need to own your own issues and deal with that. I do wish you and your family well, but you're putting a lot of innocent people and your own future and welfare at stake. And you would have nobody to blame but yourself.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. Thorburn your pain and life problems do not give you an excuse to put the lives of other drivers and pedestrians in danger. You have spent your life protecting our country and freedom. Why would you be so reckless?

Get help for your drinking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## karole

The DUI is what stuck out to me in your post as well. I just hope and pray you get help for it before you hurt yourself or someone else. I had a family member who was out for a Sunday afternoon drive recently killed by a drunk driver, so it is a sensitive subject for me.


----------



## the guy

Thorburn said:


> 7. My wife. It is hard to put into words but she has changed. What she is doing for me seems to be coming from her heart and not out of obligation (if this makes sense). She answers all questions without hesitation. She has a new attitude towards me. Has taken full responsibility for what she has done. Has not blameshifted one thing. Has been transparent and fully accountable. She is there for me. I feel that for the first time in our marriage she is fully committed to me.
> 
> 8.


Welcome to my world.

Its kinda phucked when they sow their wild oats and had their fill, while they leave us in their distruction. Only to settle down when *we* have had enough!

Sir it will never be the same, so don't count on anything different. you are in the the business or emotional trama, you know better...but then again you know what you know. And for that I can't take that away.

Having been there I can relate...are we making a mistake? or are we doing our selves a favor? Only you can answer that!

Never went thru a fake R, but been thru enough mud in my marraige to know that one can't contemn.

Again it sucks that "they" can go off and get "their" fill and leave us to pick up the pieces!

Now might be a good time to get into role playing and spankings cuz God knows your old lady diserves one now and then.

I'm wired different then most and even though vengence is mine say it the Lord....sometimes it just makes me feel a little better when I help him out with a few spankings I give the old lady now and then. 

Some times I think she like her penence coming from me good. Your a counselor, whats your take on "cleansing" my FWW? LOL


----------



## Thorburn

the guy said:


> Welcome to my world.
> 
> Its kinda phucked when they sow their wild oats and had their fill, while they leave us in their distruction. Only to settle down when *we* have had enough!
> 
> Sir it will never be the same, so don't count on anything different. you are in the the business or emotional trama, you know better...but then again you know what you know. And for that I can't take that away.
> 
> Having been there I can relate...are we making a mistake? or are we doing our selves a favor? Only you can answer that!
> 
> Never went thru a fake R, but been thru enough mud in my marraige to know that one can't contemn.
> 
> Again it sucks that "they" can go off and get "their" fill and leave us to pick up the pieces!
> 
> Now might be a good time to get into role playing and spankings cuz God knows your old lady diserves one now and then.
> 
> I'm wired different then most and even though vengence is mine say it the Lord....sometimes it just makes me feel a little better when I help him out with a few spankings I give the old lady now and then.
> 
> Some times I think she like her penence coming from me good. Your a counselor, whats your take on "cleansing" my FWW? LOL


*Its kinda phucked when they sow their wild oats and had their fill, while they leave us in their distruction. Only to settle down when *we* have had enough!*

It is phucked. I have had folks in counseling who have had A's. Not one of them ended well. I don't think my wife's current thinking is that she had her fill. I think if you could speak to her now or see her thought bubbles you would hear things like, stupid, a worm, a sluuut, a horrible person, etc. I see a lot of self condemnation, guilt, remorse, self loathing, etc in her. From February 6th (the night I confronted her with the recording) till the night of the confession her mindset was she was going to continue to cheat and in fact up the stakes and was actively seeking other men. Getting caught did not change her behavior, it ramped it up. It was when she realized her fault and came to her senses that everything changed. 

*Sir it will never be the same, so don't count on anything different. you are in the the business or emotional trama, you know better...but then again you know what you know. And for that I can't take that away.*

I agree it will never be the same. I had a young sailor who just got back from Afghanistan. He told me at our first meeting that one of his goals is to go back to the way he was before he went to war. I told him that that will never happen so if that is one of his goals I will never ever be able to help him achieve that one, that it is an unrealistic goal. When I was in Iraq I would talk to soldiers about normal reactions to abnormal experiences. That what they are experiencing or feeling is not unique and they aren't the only ones to ever feel this way, that a soldier's responce to a buddy's death or serious injury is a reaction to a horrible event. That is why after a serious event I would meet with all the soldiers in a group setting and I would just allow the soldiers to go over the events and share their feelings. Often times soldiers would be surprised at the comments of others, that they would share exactly their thoughts and feelings. The sense that we were in this together and having the same thoughts and feelings would help the soldiers get back to their mission. It is the same here on TAM. Reading how others react and getting feed back helps quite a bit.

*Having been there I can relate...are we making a mistake? or are we doing our selves a favor? Only you can answer that!*

I still feel that whatever road we choose stinks. Whether we D or R, whether we go into denial or confront, the betrayal and the aftermath is truely horrendous. Those of us that are the BS had no say, no control over the events of betrayal. Going throuh R from November 2011 till last month was false and it stank. All the signs were there of a false R. At least now I have much of the truth from my wife and the OM. I can say in some ways it is easier. Knowing what happened, where, when, etc. allows me to put my investigation to rest. The digging, checking, probbing, etc is over. I made a mistake last year. Trying to work on a marriage under false pretences. I am questioning myself everyday whether this is a mistake to give R a try. 

*Again it sucks that "they" can go off and get "their" fill and leave us to pick up the pieces!*

I feel like my wife and I are both picking up the pieces. Everyone I have counseled over the years that had A's all had the A's end badly. My wife's A did not end well. She has lost quite a bit. Prior to my wife coming clean and after D-day my attitude was exactly like you say, that they go off and get their fill. She was having fun and excitement. But the reality that I am seeing in my wife is that now that she has come to her senses she feels like a cheap whor*. That she feels it was not worth it. And will carry the stigma the rest of her life. I don't have a lot of sympathy for her in this regards, that her actions will haunt her the rest of her life. I would not want to be in her shoes. 

*Now might be a good time to get into role playing and spankings cuz God knows your old lady diserves one now and then.

I'm wired different then most and even though vengence is mine say it the Lord....sometimes it just makes me feel a little better when I help him out with a few spankings I give the old lady now and then. 

Some times I think she like her penence coming from me good. Your a counselor, whats your take on "cleansing" my FWW? LOL*

LOL. What is my take? Hmmm. I am not into spanking and my wife is not into it either. I have read posts here where rougher sex has been therapeutic. I am of the opinion that if a married couple agrees to certain acts (within reason) then it is OK. That is how I have counseled couples. Even with the OM the sex was fairly straight forward. Two to three times each time they met but what I thought was "backdoor" sex wasn't.


----------



## sandc

At least prostitutes get paid. What did she get out of it? Grief and misery.


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## Thorburn

sandc said:


> At least prostitutes get paid. What did she get out of it? Grief and misery.


True.


----------



## Thorburn

Yesterday was our 30th anniversity. I had asked my wife days before if she wanted to do something on our anniversity and she said she has to work and will be exhausted and would rather wait. It ticked me off and I just held it inside. So yesterday I was in a rotten mood and I did not share it with my wife. She went to work and called me around 4:30 asking me if I was coming home and I said I was. I really did not want to go home and stayed at work. She texted me and wrote I knew you would be 2 hours late. I assumed she was mad. I got home and she greeted me with a smile, a kiss and a big hug and suggested that we go out. Her idea was great. So out we went. I was still in a rotten mood and did not really want to go out. When we got to the first place my mood still did not change. We went to a sports bar for dinner. Still no change in me. I did not even have one beer. Got home and my wife suggested we get in the hot tub and that is when everything changed. We had a great evening.

I was assuming she would be mad at me staying late and she wasn't. She made it a great evening. I am enjoying her change of heart. Her focus has been on me and it is showing by her actions. I know she worked hard yesterday yet she took the time to give me a good evening. 

I shared with her this morning on my way to work about how I was feeling yesterday and she said that I need to share those thoughts with her so she can help me through them and she asked me not to keep those things to myself in the future. I said I had a great time last night and my wife started to cry and she said she did as well and that she needs to hear that, because she wanted to give me a good time.


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## happyman64

Thorburn

Your wife is right. You have to open up.

Do not be your own worst enemy.

And if she asks for it let her have it.

I am glad your anniversary turned out well.

HM


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## sandc

Open honest communication will benefit you both. When you trigger, tell her and tell her why you are triggering, if you can figure it out. When she pisses you off, tell her you're pissed and tell her why. When she does something nice for you and you appreciate it, tell her. Tell her the good, the bad, everything. It will help unburden you and it will also encourage her. Even with all the sh!tty stuff she did she still needs to be encouraged to keep working on the marriage.


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## Shaggy

Thorburn,

Actually you've only now been in your marriage about a month.


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## karole

Glad things seem to be looking better for you TB. I'm also glad you decided against drinking. Keep it up!


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## Thorburn

sandc said:


> Open honest communication will benefit you both. When you trigger, tell her and tell her why you are triggering, if you can figure it out. When she pisses you off, tell her you're pissed and tell her why. When she does something nice for you and you appreciate it, tell her. Tell her the good, the bad, everything. It will help unburden you and it will also encourage her. Even with all the sh!tty stuff she did she still needs to be encouraged to keep working on the marriage.


Yesterday my wife asked me if I was coming home on time and I told her I was looking forward to it. She had a hard day with our oldest son (special needs) as he was pushing all her buttons. When she was sharing this with me I was thinking that she deserves all this. I told my wife I will take him trout fishing. Well traffic was horrible last night. I think it had to do with the U.S. Open that is being held near my home. Took me almost two hours to get home. But I was in a good mood. I told my wife that what she did for me the night before has really carried over to today and she responded positively.

My son wanted to go to church so no trout fishing and we sat down to eat dinner. My wife looked at me with tears in her eyes and said, "Thanks for giving me another chance". We had a nice dinner and took our son to church. 

I went to bed and had horrible dreams. I shared this with my wife this morning and I thought she was ignoring me as she did not respond and walked out of the room and into the bedroom. I just thought she was giving me some space to clear my head. I did not go into the details of the dreams (her and the xom). I took Rudy (our Golden Retriever) out and when I came back in the house my wife was on the bed with her Bible. She read a verse to me out of Isaiah. It was just what I needed. I shared that with my wife and she stated that she needed it as well.

I still am wrestling with thoughts about the pastor. The one positive thing that he did was open my eyes to my wife's family as they believed the words of a stranger over me and did not ask me what really was said. 

My wife's one friend from HS that sent me a very nasty message and then apologized after my wife explained things has dropped us from her FB a few days ago. My wife has only one friend from HS that has remained in contact and that was the one that we argued about in early 2012. The last conversation they had was very short and I get the sense that she feels embarrassed. This friend and others from her HS days were all supporting my wife and even communicating among themselves about our situation. Two of them sent me very nasty messages and later found out that my wife had lied about everything. So my wife has very little contact with two family members, and her HS friends have abandoned ship for the most part. As I look back over the past few years she never wanted me involved with these friends. She went to a reunion by herself and told me I would be bored. I wanted to go but relented and she went. Then when she reunited with her old best friend from HS my wife told me that she wanted "us" to get together and everytime they set a place and a date it did not work out. My wife finally met twice last year with her, alone, saying I would be bored. I would not have been bored, my wife just shut me out and wanted to share her A's with this friend. I have found out that this friend told her to drop the OM and work on her marriage. She told my wife several times that she does not know me but the OM is not the person she should be involved. At least she seems to have had sense. My wife could have reunited with these old friends and continued to build those relationships but she blew it by lying and getting them to support her in her lies and now they all feel used, like me.


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## turnera

Why don't you guys go out and make new friends who you can hang out with together?


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## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Why don't you guys go out and make new friends who you can hang out with together?


We are actually working on this. Have made friends with the next door neighbors and we have been trying to go out with them but our schedules have not worked out yet. We are planning a cook out with them. He and I have a similar background and we have hit it off well. My wife likes them as well.


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## turnera

Good time for a block party...


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## bfree

*Re: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



turnera said:


> Good time for a block party...


Do people still do those?


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## turnera

Sure. National Night Out, for example...


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## Thorburn

bfree said:


> Do people still do those?


They are big here where I work. Got an invite just this morning from one of our Veterans. In some neighborhoods they are a big deal.


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## Thorburn

Every night we get in our hot tub, take a shower and go to bed. Last night I asked my wife while she was in the shower if there had been any contact with the OM. She said "no". I was laying on the bed and she came in and said, "Mac, I want you to know it is over, I will not hurt you again. I have caused too much pain and will not do that again." She then asked me if I understood that? I told her that I am trying. She then asked me why I asked the question and I said I heard through a family member of the OM that their marriage might be over. The OMW stated in 2011 that if he ever did it again she would D him. Well he never stopped and when I contacted her she did not believe me. The following day he confessed to her. I told my wife he may come looking for her if his M is over and she better prepare for that. She said, I doubt that he will but if he contacts her in any way she will let me know right away. 

Going to try to have a good weekend. I have to work tomorrow as we will be meeting with family members of soldiers that are deployed. So it will be a short weekend.


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## LostViking

I don't know...

I just don't know....




Thorburn watch your back.


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## Acabado

I keep holding my breath and having you in my thoughts since your wife's aparent epiphany.


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## karole

All I can say is, I hope things work out for your Thornburn, I really do. What about your drinking? Please don't drink and drive anymore. (Sermon over).


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## Thorburn

karole said:


> All I can say is, I hope things work out for your Thornburn, I really do. What about your drinking? Please don't drink and drive anymore. (Sermon over).


We went to a sports bar on Tuesday as part of our anniversity and I had a Sprite. No adult drinks. I heard you all loud and clear.


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> I don't know...
> 
> I just don't know....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thorburn watch your back.


I am watching my back and my front. I am skeptical but I finally do see a big change in her. 

She told me last night that she fears that one day I will not show up. It is ironic that there have been nights where I just don't feel like going home. Perhaps I am projecting that and she is picking up on it. I am working on R and will give it a try.


----------



## LostViking

Thorburn said:


> I am watching my back and my front. I am skeptical but I finally do see a big change in her.
> 
> She told me last night that she fears that one day I will not show up. It is ironic that there have been nights where I just don't feel like going home. Perhaps I am projecting that and she is picking up on it. I am working on R and will give it a try.


Enjoy her new attitude and behavior. 

But don't let your guard completely down. Just assume for the next few years everything she says will have to be taken with a grain of salt. Every action will need to be scrutinized. 

Don't get lazy and stop monitoring. Keep checking her cell phone, the GPS, VAR... don't stop. 

We have all seen first hand what happens to you when you get complacent.


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## Tony55

Thorburn, in the spirit of reconciliation, you really need to make an effort to have engaging conversations with her, the kind you can imagine having with a girl during the first few months of dating. I know it's hard, but, based on that recording, she sure was going on about everything under the sun, as if she was starving for male-female conversation. You need to somehow figure out what you would be saying to her if she was a brand new conquest (for lack of a better word), and engage her in those conversations. Get her talking about herself, or whatever, (not about the affairs) and actively listen, and you need to figure out how to make it look like you genuinely want to hear her talk, I know that may sound funny but it's easier said than done. Just get her to talk. Don't ask her to talk, just bring up something you know she's interested in and let her take over.

T


----------



## vi_bride04

*Re: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



Tony55 said:


> Thorburn, in the spirit of reconciliation, you really need to make an effort to have engaging conversations with her, the kind you can imagine having with a girl during the first few months of dating. I know it's hard, but, based on that recording, she sure was going on about everything under the sun, as if she was starving for male-female conversation. You need to somehow figure out what you would be saying to her if she was a brand new conquest (for lack of a better word), and engage her in those conversations. Get her talking about herself, or whatever, (not about the affairs) and actively listen, and you need to figure out how to make it look like you genuinely want to hear her talk, I know that may sound funny but it's easier said than done. Just get her to talk. Don't ask her to talk, just bring up something you know she's interested in and let her take over.
> 
> T


And don't try to offer ways of fixing or solving anything she is talking about....just let her talk and be interested in what she is saying.


----------



## MattMatt

bfree said:


> Do people still do those?


We had them last year for the Queen's Jubilee. Great fun!


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## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> Thorburn, in the spirit of reconciliation, you really need to make an effort to have engaging conversations with her, the kind you can imagine having with a girl during the first few months of dating. I know it's hard, but, based on that recording, she sure was going on about everything under the sun, as if she was starving for male-female conversation. You need to somehow figure out what you would be saying to her if she was a brand new conquest (for lack of a better word), and engage her in those conversations. Get her talking about herself, or whatever, (not about the affairs) and actively listen, and you need to figure out how to make it look like you genuinely want to hear her talk, I know that may sound funny but it's easier said than done. Just get her to talk. Don't ask her to talk, just bring up something you know she's interested in and let her take over.
> 
> T


That was part of what was very frustrating for me. In the recordings I have with the XOM and her family members she would talk about tons of stuff (though there were many lies she was telling these folks even about normal stuff). I have asked her why she does not talk to me like that? I have told her that in the recordings she never stops talking. I am not really sure why. I know that during the time of her A's from 2010 till over a month ago she just shut me out of her life for the most part and had other outlets. I have tried (I believe sucessfully) to engage her and let her talk about things. If we talk about the A it is maybe once a day or everyother day and typically like today it is one question and we move on. 

As I reflect on this I will say that I can certainly improve here but for the most part she shut me out. I can't say how many times I did things with her (that I did not enjoy) because I knew she wanted to do those things.


----------



## bfree

Thorburn said:


> That was part of what was very frustrating for me. In the recordings I have with the XOM and her family members she would talk about tons of stuff (though there were many lies she was telling these folks even about normal stuff). I have asked her why she does not talk to me like that? I have told her that in the recordings she never stops talking. I am not really sure why. I know that during the time of her A's from 2010 till over a month ago she just shut me out of her life for the most part and had other outlets. I have tried (I believe sucessfully) to engage her and let her talk about things. If we talk about the A it is maybe once a day or everyother day and typically like today it is one question and we move on.
> 
> As I reflect on this I will say that I can certainly improve here but for the most part she shut me out. I can't say how many times I did things with her (that I did not enjoy) because I knew she wanted to do those things.


I don't mean this as a criticism and this is completely separate from her affair. Is it possible that you just weren't an easy person to talk to? I ask for a few reasons. One, it seems that you do tend to get angry on occasion. This may be a result of what has transpired over the years but were you always this way? Could she have become gun shy over the years afraid of an angry outburst? Also, is the drinking a recent phenomena or is that something you used to do before? Sometimes it is difficult to talk to someone who is "under the influence." Lastly and this may be off base as well but you are a very smart world wise person. I get the sense that your wife is not quite as intelligent and frankly maybe a little naïve. Is it possible that without meaning to you might have been talking down to her?

Just some food for thought my friend.


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## turnera

Maybe you had a tendency to make her feel unsafe to share so much with you. Lots of people do that without even realizing it.


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## Shaggy

Guys he works a as a therapist, I'm imagining he's very easy to talk to.


----------



## ScubaSteve61

That aside, sometimes those closest to you are the ones hardest to talk to.


----------



## turnera

Never hurts to take a look at yourself, Shaggy. You never know.


----------



## Shaggy

I'll bet it's all part of his wife's compartmentalization.

She didn't talk to him, because she might have slipped up and let him know something about her many affairs through the years.

Sorry thorburn, but I don't think you've actually cracked the but that is your wife, you just it her to change up the game.

Have you gotten the full truth about her affairs before this OM? About the teen you think was visiting during the day?

See, I think you got her to spill about what you already knew from the tape, but she's safely kept the really old stuff from you.

And I fear honestly for your future, because eventually she'll slip back to her old ways and it will destroy you. She has been at it too long, getting strange, to just like that stop cold forever. It was just too deep a part of her.

I think you put a lot of fear into her, but is it life long?


----------



## Thorburn

bfree said:


> I don't mean this as a criticism and this is completely separate from her affair. Is it possible that you just weren't an easy person to talk to? I ask for a few reasons. One, it seems that you do tend to get angry on occasion. This may be a result of what has transpired over the years but were you always this way? Could she have become gun shy over the years afraid of an angry outburst? Also, is the drinking a recent phenomena or is that something you used to do before? Sometimes it is difficult to talk to someone who is "under the influence." Lastly and this may be off base as well but you are a very smart world wise person. I get the sense that your wife is not quite as intelligent and frankly maybe a little naïve. Is it possible that without meaning to you might have been talking down to her?
> 
> Just some food for thought my friend.


The drinking was new and was a result of her A and living apart. She was giving me lies and I went to a poor way of coping by drinking. 

Anger. She stated that I have always been angry and that statement came from her during the time I was pursueing D. I was not an angry person. Last year when I had angry outbursts it was not how I acted in the past. Like my oldest BIL explained to some of her family members. He said when my wife was complaining to them about my anger and other things if you took out the context of her cheating, my behavior would had been wrong, but if you put my reactions into the fact that my wife was cheating during those times, he says my behavior makes sense. Though I will not make an excuse for getting out of control last year with drinking and rage, my wife did not help at all with her continued lies, deceit and staying in the A. 

I have always felt that I am easy to talk to. My wife has complained that I do not listen to her. Again, those complaints came during her A's. I can honestly say that there have been times where I have basically begged my wife to share things with me. Her reply many times over the years is that she stuffs things and is more private. I have told her recently that I will no longer buy that and that we both need to share things. I know for a fact that there have been several times in our M where she was very open about things.

She does feel from time to time that I am talking down to her. She has complained about this. But within the context of the M the only time this comes up is when she is looking elsewhere or is with someone else. 

I do believe if you would ask her now how she feels about these issues, she would say that she does not like me drinking (I stopped), that the anger was caused by her lies, but that I went over the top last year, that it is her that does not always open up and that it has nothing to do with whether I listen to her or not. The issue of me talking down to her was never an issue other then times when she was having A's.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Maybe you had a tendency to make her feel unsafe to share so much with you. Lots of people do that without even realizing it.


I am open to most criticism and have been beating myself up. But upon reflection on these questions that I have asked myself I will have to say that I though there were moments in the M where I was not there for my wife they were early on in the M. And those were times where there was nothing earth shattering going on in her life. They were not crisis times. But as our M developed I was there for her. She has told me that I always made her feel safe and that she was the one who went astray, all the while I gave her a santuary (these are her words). I was her rock (her words) when her father passed away almost 10 years ago. She also told me that she felt she could always come to me. Listening to the various recordings that is one of the painful parts of this entire mess, is that the things she is sharing with others are things she should have and could have shared with me. Ironically many of the things she is sharing with the XOM are lies. She told the XOM that her one sister and her have fun times together. Yet she and her sister rarely ever did anything together and never really ever had fun together. She told the XOM about what she did when my father died last year and how we (my family and I) responded. It did not happen the way she explained it. 

When her mother died in 2011 she pushed me away as she had just started her new A. When she complained that I was not there for her during this time I told her that I asked her over and over again if I need to take time off work to be with her and she said no, that she is doing OK. I remember several times that I told her I would be leaving work to be with her and she said, "dont, I am OK". She did not want me or need me because she had turned to someone else.

During her A's she spun the entire M. When I went to the E.R. in 2010 she did not care that I had Rocky Mountain Fever, all she wanted was me to bring the car home. When I had to go to the E.R. in January she refused to take me. Yet when I was pursuing D in February, March and April of this year I took her to the E.R. twice and even left work to do so. She would not had done that for me during that time.


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## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> I'll bet it's all part of his wife's compartmentalization.
> 
> She didn't talk to him, because she might have slipped up and let him know something about her many affairs through the years.
> 
> Sorry thorburn, but I don't think you've actually cracked the but that is your wife, you just it her to change up the game.
> 
> Have you gotten the full truth about her affairs before this OM? About the teen you think was visiting during the day?
> 
> See, I think you got her to spill about what you already knew from the tape, but she's safely kept the really old stuff from you.
> 
> And I fear honestly for your future, because eventually she'll slip back to her old ways and it will destroy you. She has been at it too long, getting strange, to just like that stop cold forever. It was just too deep a part of her.
> 
> I think you put a lot of fear into her, but is it life long?


I have not gotten the entire truth (IMO) about the previous A's. Frankly I have not pushed it yet. Her story of the A in 1999 still does not add up and I have not let that go. I have not brought that up in a while. I believe I did get the truth about the teen, there was some flirtation and that was the extent of it. 

Shaggy, you could be correct and that is what I am trying to work through. The past three days have been hel* in my head.


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## canttrustu

hang in there Thor. still checkin in on ya even if Im not saying much. Im still pulling for you.


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## Shaggy

Thorburn said:


> I have not gotten the entire truth (IMO) about the previous A's. Frankly I have not pushed it yet. Her story of the A in 1999 still does not add up and I have not let that go. I have not brought that up in a while. I believe I did get the truth about the teen, there was some flirtation and that was the extent of it.
> 
> Shaggy, you could be correct and that is what I am trying to work through. The past three days have been hel* in my head.


Thor , there is a real similarity between what you just wrote and what you wrote during the post Dday 1. 

Lots of info missing that you didn't trust, but you didn't push to uncover. In time it festered but didn't get answered and bam dday 2.

I really think you should be finding the answers now while she is trying to keep you. Don't put it off like you did last time.

I really want it to work this time for you.


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## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> Thor , there is a real similarity between what you just wrote and what you wrote during the post Dday 1.
> 
> Lots of info missing that you didn't trust, but you didn't push to uncover. In time it festered but didn't get answered and bam dday 2.
> 
> I really think you should be finding the answers now while she is trying to keep you. Don't put it off like you did last time.
> 
> I really want it to work this time for you.


After Dday 1 I did push for info. I presented proof and she first lied then said she did not remember and I knew that was a lie. I pushed for over a year particularly about two dates. Then in the fall of 2012 I pushed again when she was gone and I knew she hooked up with someone and she lied about it. My wife kept telling me to "relax", "trust her" and that she can't stand my anger. I kept telling her I will stop being angry when she stops lying. I told her over and over again for a year, when you stop lying I will stop getting angry. I said to her, you don't get it, I catch you in a lie then I get angry. I told her you just don't understand the cycle here, you lie, I get mad, you get upset that I am angry and you tell everyone how mean I am. When you stop lying my anger towards you will end. 

Presently she is answering every question but I am not pushing hard right now. I heard a lot and now I am trying to deal with this pain. As far as the two teens, the one around 1997 and the one in 2009 when I was in Iraq, I believe were flirts and nothing more. I do believe my youngest son got to the truth on those. One of the issues I am having is 1999. She and her middle sister were having cyber sex with various men online (I had a keylogger installed during that time) and she started dating a guy and even moved in with him for one night. She has told me over and over again that all they did was kiss and they did not have sex and I don't believe her and I told her several times that I don't believe her. I said why in the world do you fear coming clean on this? It ws in 1999 and now would be the time to come clean. I told her if I find out that there was sex with this guy by someone else or if you tell me down the road that you did this M will be over, so now is your time to tell me. Her responce was always there was no sex at all. I remeber her telling me what they did back in 1999 and her story has not changed other then she has gone into more details about what they talked about.

I have some questions. I really don't know how to proceed here. My wife is willing to answer questions and talk about her A, I need help in what more to ask.


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## LostViking

What she calls sex and what you call sex may be two different things. I find it hard to believe she would move in with a guy for a night without doing something sexual. Okay maybe the didn't have intercourse. But there had to have been kissing, heavy petting, oral.... Maybe she doesn't define those things as sex. It is cheating all the same. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

It depends on what matters to you. If you need to visualize them in bed, ask those questions. If you need to figure out how you got played, ask about the day to day logistics. If you need to see how she could lie, ask about what she did when you did A, B, or C.


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## Shaggy

I wish I knew how to help crack her selective memory, she's had a long time of lying and compartmentalizing. 

Have you talked about a polygraph with her?


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## Acabado

She's pulling - at least - a Clinton response. It's a no brainer. You don't cibersex for a while, go to OMs and talk about the weather. We are all adults here. Tell her to try again. Tell her you can't be vulnerable to her and start the trust building process when every cell of your body knows you she's lying to you for whatever reason she sells herself.
At this point any kind of "stretching" the truth is simply lying. She can't affor to keep lies/boxes in her head, she must pour the poison, for her own sake, and of course for the marriage sake. Beyonf complete, radical honesty everyting is manipulation. There's no chance for intimacy with lies in the middle.
That's why I stressed you time ago (when sex addiction was talked about here) she must seek proper counseling (CSATs know full discosures are a must).


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## Thorburn

Shaggy said:


> I wish I knew how to help crack her selective memory, she's had a long time of lying and compartmentalizing.
> 
> Have you talked about a polygraph with her?


I believe it was in December 2011 and there was a discussion of polygraphs. My wife brought it up and I thought it was strange that she mentioned it and was talking about how inaccurate they were. I am not sure where she came up with the thought of a poly but I have always felt that it was strange that she brought it up.


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## Thorburn

Acabado said:


> She's pulling - at least - a Clinton response. It's a no brainer. You don't cibersex for a while, go to OMs and talk about the weather. We are all adults here. Tell her to try again. Tell her you can't be vulnerable to her and start the trust building process when every cell of your body knows you she's lying to you for whatever reason she sells herself.
> At this point any kind of "stretching" the truth is simply lying. She can't affor to keep lies/boxes in her head, she must pour the poison, for her own sake, and of course for the marriage sake. Beyonf complete, radical honesty everyting is manipulation. There's no chance for intimacy with lies in the middle.
> That's why I stressed you time ago (when sex addiction was talked about here) she must seek proper counseling (CSATs know full discosures are a must).


In 1999 things got very bad in our M. The reason of course was found out when I installed the key logger. She was cybersexting with at least 4 guys around the world. Very graphic stuff. Then she hook up with an OM. Went out with him, drinking in his truck. That is when alcohol came into our home. We really did not drink before that time. She had cut me off from sex. And that is what never made sense. She was not getting sex from me and was on the computer for hours cyber sexting guys and then she tells me nothing other then some kissing and not even heavy petting as she snuck off meeting this guy. The night she moved in with the guy she left me and my boys (ages around 10 and 12) and said she was so upset that he stayed downstairs and she was upstairs. She remembers taking a shower and going to bed. Like I said I don't buy it and unless she is telling the truth, none of this makes sense. If she had sex back in 1999 why doesn't she come clean? Unless she is telling the truth. Again, I don't buy it.


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## turnera

Smart not to.


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## turnera

Most likely, it is something SO bad she is still afraid to admit it to you.


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## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Most likely, it is something SO bad she is still afraid to admit it to you.


Last year and into April of this year (before we knew she was still with the OM from 2011) when I was talking to her oldest brother, that is what he kept saying to me about what she was doing. Many of us thought she was hooking up with strange men randomly. Like my oldest BIL told me several times when a person does not tell the truth or does not go into details we fill in the blanks. He kept telling me that it must be really bad if she is not telling the whole story. As it turned out it was not as bad as we thought (it was still bad enough), but we had thought she was on Craigslist, and other sites looking. 

So again, going back to 1999, I am left to fill in the blanks. Today I had one client and one group and I will be having two more group sessions at the hospital and will be able to be home early. I wanted to talk to her last night but our son wanted to go out and I shut down and just went along. I had asked my wife if we could go out as I was having a rough go of it and she said something to my son and the three of us went out and we did not get to talk like I wanted. I did not communicate it well as I looked back on last night. But my son needed time with us so it was not a total blow out. 

My wife knows I am going through a rough spell and she said something to me this morning, that she does not want me to shut down and that I have been very quiet the past several days. I asked her how she is doing? and her response is that she is doing very good and that she knows that I am not and she wants me to talk about it. She has said to me several times that she is here for me and is willing to talk. Right now I am having a tough time talking to her about it. I don't want to blow up at her and I can feel at times I am on the verge. 

So this evening I will sit down and share some things with her.


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## LostViking

Thor is there any way you could track down that guy she was with in '99? 

You could call him up and lie and tell him your wife is on her deathbed with full blown AIDS and you wanted to let him know he might be infected. A wild shot, but something like that could get him to spill the beans on her. 

(Go ahead Turnera...take your jab.)


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## karole

Thornburn, I honestly don't know how your wife can stand to look at herself in the mirror. She has done such horrible things to you and your family for such a long time and from what you say, your marriage has been bad for many years. So, if I may ask you a question, why do you want to stay in it? The pain of leaving her couldn't be a whole lot worse than the pain you have already been living in - could it?


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> Thor is there any way you could track down that guy she was with in '99?
> 
> You could call him up and lie and tell him your wife is on her deathbed with full blown AIDS and you wanted to let him know he might be infected. A wild shot, but something like that could get him to spill the beans on her.
> 
> (Go ahead Turnera...take your jab.)


I made a fool of myself last year telling my wife that the XOM is spilling the beans out of guilt. I was lying. My wife mean while was still involved with the XOM and knew that he was not talking. 

In 2000 I did make statements that I tracked down the XOM and it did nothing.

Last evening my wife came to me. She told me I have been avoiding her and went through a list of things I have been doing. I expained to her that I am not avoiding her and went over her list. I said if I am avoiding her why did I finish painting the bathroom like she wanted me to do when I came home from work yesterday? I said, you asked me if I could finish painting the bathroom that there are places that are too difficult for you to reach. I told her I did exactly what you asked me to do. I asked her, how can I be avoiding you when I heard what you wanted me to do and I did it? She said she is very sensitive and is worried about how I have been the past 5 days, not talking much, seeming down, etc. I said I am numb and I am depressed. I said it feels like I have been hit with a tidal wave the past few days. Then we talked for a long time.

I believe I got my answer about 1999. She was describing when she had sex for the first time with the XOM on Sept. 9 2011 that it was the first time she ever had anyone other then me go inside her. She said she hates to say it but she had thoughts at that time that she had crossed the line and allowed it to happen. That it was planned. She stated that she never did anything like that before and that she willingly walked over the cliff. She said, I thought, no one ever did this to me before except Mac. I asked her about 1999 and said it makes no sense that you did not have sex. I said, you had cut me off from sex, you were having cybersex with about 4 guys and you were sneaking around with this guy and even moved in with him for a night. She said there was no sex. She said the night she went to his place she said she was upset and cried most of the night and that he just stayed downstairs. She said if we had any kind of sex I would tell you. The way she told the story seems sincere. I do remember that when she came home she told me everything they did. That they had just kissed and hugged over the past several months and they had no sex. I remember also that I asked her never to have contact with the guys online and she said she is done. A few days later I saw that she had contacted all the guys and was basically saying it was fun but it is over. When I saw those messages (I still had the keylogger) and that she deleted them so I would not see them I got mad. She was in bed and I asked her if she was in contact with any of the guys and she said no. I punched the wall above my side of the bed and told her to stop lying, that I have proof and I asked her why she had to that. I said why do you feel the need to tell these guys that you were having cybersex with, goodbye? My fist mark, punched right through the drywall, stayed above my bed until last year, when I finally patched it. My wife had a picture over it so I had forgotten about it. 

If she is lying about not having sex in 1999 then she is one good liar. I knew she was lying last year. She seems totally truthful now.


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## BK23

Thorburn. You know she's not only a good liar, she's masterful. Believe what you want to believe, but I think to get any real peace, you need to ditch her or get a Poly.


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## tom67

BK23 said:


> Thorburn. You know she's not only a good liar, she's masterful. Believe what you want to believe, but I think to get any real peace, you need to ditch her or get a Poly.


No sex all those times?:scratchhead:For me it doesn't pass the smell test but ok.


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## Thorburn

karole said:


> Thornburn, I honestly don't know how your wife can stand to look at herself in the mirror. She has done such horrible things to you and your family for such a long time and from what you say, your marriage has been bad for many years. So, if I may ask you a question, why do you want to stay in it? The pain of leaving her couldn't be a whole lot worse than the pain you have already been living in - could it?


I believe my wife has come to the point where she is truely sorrowful. The night she cut her hair said a lot to me. It would be a long story but the significance of that evening was powerful. As she handed me her hair with a bow wrapped around it I handed her my wedding ring saying the M is over. She started crying saying she never expected me to hand her my ring. I had almost sold it hours before. She said I cut my hair for you to show you how sorry I am. I knew what it meant but it took me a while to come back to her and talk. She told me she changed. 

Last night she was talking quite a bit about how wrong she was and that she keeps asking herself why, why why? That with all the pain she has caused me that she feels like the lowest scum on the earth. She said she can't believe the person she became and that she will prove to me that she will never hurt me again. 

Yes there will be pain no matter if I R or D. So why stay? I have not made a final decision. If she is true to what she is saying then there is hope.


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## LostViking

Have you thought of divorcing, living together for a few years and remarrying if her changes stick?

And is your wife in any kind of counseling?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

BK23 said:


> Thorburn. You know she's not only a good liar, she's masterful. Believe what you want to believe, but I think to get any real peace, you need to ditch her or get a Poly.


Certainly the poly has been in my mind for a while though there have been quite a few here who feel it is a waste of money. I have found a good technician that is an hour away. He charges $600.00. I guess with the way she has come clean with this recent A that everything else would just flow out of her. I honestly go back and forth. It is like last year. I had the proof and would not let it go and she kept saying she does not remember. I don't have any proof on 1999 as to what they did. The keylogger only showed when they planned to meet up and there was not much else shared other then my wife was hoping to file for D at some point. 



tom67 said:


> No sex all those times?:scratchhead:*For me it doesn't pass the smell test but ok*.


It does not pass the smell test for me either. I have gone over the points with her several times, no sex with me, cybersexting several guys online and dating a guy (behind my back). So no it makes no sense to me. The only thing that I can say is that when she was telling me the story of her first sexual encounter with the XOM in 2011 she stated that she remembers thinking that this was the first guy to ever go inside her besides me. She may have rehearsed this story to get me off the questions from 1999. Other then the poly I can just bring it up as not making sense and see where it goes. I just can't for the life of me grasp why she will not reveal it, if it happened.


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## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> Have you thought of divorcing, living together for a few years and remarrying if her changes stick?
> 
> And is your wife in any kind of counseling?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have thought about the D thing as you suggested. Not sure if I can do that from my religious views. I don't mean legally but I am not sure if I could live that way and live with myself.

Counseling. Here we go again. No. She is not. She mentioned last night that she will be going soon. This was always an issue with me. Last year she went to a bad one and additionally she lied. She told me that I may need it. I cut that in the bud. I told her I went to several good counselors since 2010 and I will not be going again for a while. I got all the help and anwsers I needed and they all told me to leave her and that she would not stop unless she seriously changes. She said last night that she will be going to the first one that was suggested to her. I am letting it go. I want to see if she goes on her own. I said that is what I wanted her to do over a month ago and she agreed and she agreed to share everything in counseling with me. I am still waiting. If I get pis*ed off she will go and I don't want that. I want her to go on her own and do what she said, allow me to come with her when I feel like it and for her to share with me what she discussed.

We shall see.


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## vi_bride04

Is she actively trying to figure out the whys??? Not just saying she is a bad person and can't believe it but actively going to IC to figure out why she acts and acted the way she does? 

I don't know, I feel she is just THAT GOOD of a liar/manipulator b/c its all she knows and is still gas lighting and TT'ing you. You feel something is still 'off' - don't ignore your gut.

ETA: Forget the IC question, I see she is not currently going.


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## LostViking

I have to agree with vi_bride. If she was truly remorseful she would be walking her talk and moving heaven and earth to get to the core of her issues as well as doing whatever you need her to do to help you heal. IC for her is a HUGE deal and should be one of the main requirements she needs to fulfill to avoid immediate divorce. 

My feeling? I think she's scared to death to go to IC because of what the counselor might uncover: more lies and more affairs. So she keeps delaying and avoiding it,promising but never following through . You need to give her a deadline on pain of immediate filing for divorce if she does not go. 

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



Thorburn said:


> Certainly the poly has been in my mind for a while though there have been quite a few here who feel it is a waste of money. I have found a good technician that is an hour away. He charges $600.00. I guess with the way she has come clean with this recent A that everything else would just flow out of her. I honestly go back and forth. It is like last year. I had the proof and would not let it go and she kept saying she does not remember. I don't have any proof on 1999 as to what they did. The keylogger only showed when they planned to meet up and there was not much else shared other then my wife was hoping to file for D at some point.
> 
> 
> 
> It does not pass the smell test for me either. I have gone over the points with her several times, no sex with me, cybersexting several guys online and dating a guy (behind my back). So no it makes no sense to me. The only thing that I can say is that when she was telling me the story of her first sexual encounter with the XOM in 2011 she stated that she remembers thinking that this was the first guy to ever go inside her besides me. She may have rehearsed this story to get me off the questions from 1999. Other then the poly I can just bring it up as not making sense and see where it goes. I just can't for the life of me grasp why she will not reveal it, if it happened.


Maybe she won't admit it because then she would have physically cheated with more than one guy. Wouldn't that make her a serial cheater and wouldn't you then divorce her? Seems like a pretty good reason to lie.


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## vi_bride04

If she does not get to the core of the issues of why she did what she did, nothing is going to change and she WILL step out on you again.


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## LostViking

vi_bride04 said:


> If she does not get to the core of the issues of why she did what she did, nothing is going to change and she WILL step out on you again.


:iagree:

It boils down to this.


----------



## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> I have to agree with vi_bride. If she was truly remorseful she would be walking her talk and moving heaven and earth to get to the core of her issues as well as doing whatever you need her to do to help you heal. IC for her is a HUGE deal and should be one of the main requirements she needs to fulfill to avoid immediate divorce.
> 
> My feeling? I think she's scared to death to go to IC because of what the counselor might uncover: more lies and more affairs. So she keeps delaying and avoiding it,promising but never following through . You need to give her a deadline on pain of immediate filing for divorce if she does not go. .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



She had an appointment with the person I saw last year and I felt uncomfortable with my wife seeing her. She was a good counselor and I thought if I needed to go back and see her that it might be uncomfortable. 



bfree said:


> Maybe she won't admit it because then she would have physically cheated with more than one guy. Wouldn't that make her a serial cheater and wouldn't you then divorce her? Seems like a pretty good reason to lie.


I already believe she was a serial cheater. At least one PA in 1999 (she claims no sex) and at the same time having cybersex with at least four guys online. A very sexual EA in 2010. And then the PA starting in 2011 ending in 2013. Again, I ask what is the purpose of her lying? None of it makes sense. 



vi_bride04 said:


> If she does not get to the core of the issues of why she did what she did, nothing is going to change and she WILL step out on you again.


I have not pushed IC with her because I want to see if she does it on her own. She promised me last year to do it and gave me four good goals. She did this all on her own without me saying to do it. She never addressed her goals and blew off IC many times and even lied about going. 

As I have been reading all your comments and thinking through this perhaps her going to see the counselor I saw last year would not be such a bad idea. She already knows my story. 

Just keep in mind that last year my wife volunteered to go for IC, had very good goals, but did not follow through and lied to her counselor.


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## vi_bride04

Its all about actions, Thorburn. Hers so far have not indicated any change in her at her core. Or even really any attempt to change. I'm worried for you. She talks and talks and says all the right things.....but where is the walk? Since you have decided to "R" I have only seen things that you post about what she says. I have not seen any true actions from her to better herself or get to the root of her issues. You have been through the cheating crap long enough to know this needs to be done or there will not be success for your marriage. 

Yes she has been attentive and taking care of you and doing nice things for you....but that stuff is easy. Anyone can do that. Especially if they are terrified of being tossed out on the street. What serious effort has she put into HERSELF? She focus's on you and your reactions and how you feel......when is she going to start to focus on HER?


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## Tony55

Thorburn, you can't change anything; knowing something doesn't change it, not knowing something is only relevant to you when it involves you directly, IE: I don't know where my keys are, other than that, in the larger scheme of things, sometimes not knowing something is a blessing (to use a term popular with religious people).

Here's your problem, it isn't whether or not there's more to your wife's story, or if she will cheat again, or if she's cheating now, it truly isn't any of that, you're problem is you don't have confidence in your decision to stay married. And why is that? What is it about you that makes you not trust your decision in this? Figure that out and you might solve this whole thing.

If you focus on yourself, and know that you're a fortress of confidence and secure in your decisions, then there's nothing she can do anymore to hurt you, she messes up, swat her away like a fly and you're done with it. But dwelling on confessions and details at this point of the process is counter productive and weakens your chance of fully reconciling.

If you love her, then love her, and make both of your lives easier by focusing on the future. If you don't love her, then dump her and move on.

T


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## turnera

Next time she tells you you look down, ask 'what do you expect? You show a good game of remorse, but I haven't seen any ACTION from you. Where's the IC? where's the polygraph appointment? where's the letter telling your friends what you've done to me? where's the postnup?'


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## carmen ohio

Tony55 said:


> Thorburn, you can't change anything; knowing something doesn't change it, not knowing something is only relevant to you when it involves you directly, IE: I don't know where my keys are, other than that, in the larger scheme of things, sometimes not knowing something is a blessing (to use a term popular with religious people).
> 
> Here's your problem, it isn't whether or not there's more to your wife's story, or if she will cheat again, or if she's cheating now, it truly isn't any of that, you're problem is you don't have confidence in your decision to stay married. And why is that? What is it about you that makes you not trust your decision in this? Figure that out and you might solve this whole thing.
> 
> If you focus on yourself, and know that you're a fortress of confidence and secure in your decisions, then there's nothing she can do anymore to hurt you, she messes up, swat her away like a fly and you're done with it. But dwelling on confessions and details at this point of the process is counter productive and weakens your chance of fully reconciling.
> 
> If you love her, then love her, and make both of your lives easier by focusing on the future. If you don't love her, then dump her and move on.
> 
> T


Dear Thorburn,

I think this is the best advice you've received recently.

I posted about a month ago as follows:

"Of all the threads I've read on TAM, I can't think of any in which the BS had to deal with more adversity and heartache than you have had to. Nor can I think of a BS who has dealt with his or her problems as honestly and unselfishly as you have. On top of this, you live your faith better than most that I know, yours truly included. The way you have responded to your WW's infidelity reminds me of our Lord's admonition to be "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

"You've made mistakes along the way and misjudged your WW and others at times, but you have remained open to the truth and have corrected yourself when the truth was revealed to you. You've listened to the advice of others but have had the courage to do what you thought was right -- even when others were screaming that you had it all wrong."

That is still my opinion of you. Don't be unduly swayed by what people say here (not that there is much likelihood of that).

Do what you believe is right and I believe that you will end up in a good place.

Still praying for you.


----------



## Thorburn

carmen ohio said:


> Dear Thorburn,
> 
> I think this is the best advice you've received recently.
> 
> I posted about a month ago as follows:
> 
> "Of all the threads I've read on TAM, I can't think of any in which the BS had to deal with more adversity and heartache than you have had to. Nor can I think of a BS who has dealt with his or her problems as honestly and unselfishly as you have. On top of this, you live your faith better than most that I know, yours truly included. The way you have responded to your WW's infidelity reminds me of our Lord's admonition to be "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
> 
> "You've made mistakes along the way and misjudged your WW and others at times, but you have remained open to the truth and have corrected yourself when the truth was revealed to you. You've listened to the advice of others but have had the courage to do what you thought was right -- even when others were screaming that you had it all wrong."
> 
> That is still my opinion of you. Don't be unduly swayed by what people say here (not that there is much likelihood of that).
> 
> Do what you believe is right and I believe that you will end up in a good place.
> 
> Still praying for you.


Thanks. And Tony has not steered me wrong.


----------



## ScubaSteve61

So how have things been going, Thorburn?


----------



## Thorburn

ScubaSteve61 said:


> So how have things been going, Thorburn?


Things have been going fairly well. My wife has anwsered every question I have and everyone that pops up. She is doing quite a bit of heavy lifting. 

On July 13th through July 14th we had a huge fight. Long story but by Sunday afternoon we had a resolution. Then Monday and Tuesday I was in a funk. I had two nagging questions and they were simmering under the surfuce for weeks. I should have asked the questions weeks ago but didn't. Finally on Wednesday July 17th I asked them. My wife gave me a long anwser on the one and did not want to answer the second one. She said it will cause me too much pain. I said I can take it and i would like her to answer it. She did. 

I really can't explain it but it seems like Wenesday was a huge turning point for me. My wife's answers to these questions were what I needed. We will see if my wife follows up on what I told her I needed in responce to the one question. So far she has.

Additionally, my wife has been sick. She has been in the E.R., seen her family doctor and an ENT specialist. She is scheduled for a special MRI in two days. They think she has tumors that are effecting her hearing, making her naseous, dizzy, fatique etc. If this is the case she could be treated but the tumors can come back and her hearing might never be the same. Last night I was working on my professional liscense and she was taking a bath and I sense something was not right so I went into the bathroom. She was crying. She feels God is punishing her, she feels awful for what she has done, she feels sick and she has constant loud ringing in her ears. We talked for a long time. She went to bed and fell asleep. Something she has not done. She has always waited for me to come to bed or we go to bed together. I am very concerned about her health. 

Part of me feels cheated. My wife's hearing issues are anoying as I have to repeat myself. The XOM never saw my wife at her worse. never had to put up with her illnesses, never was there when she went to the E.R. And now that I have decided to R, I am dealing with a sick wife, who may have tumors that are affecting her hearing, and are making her sick. None of this is fun. I fully expected to start to have some fun. We went to the beach on Saturday, took our son and I finally got our Golden (Rudy) to swim. I basically had to teach him. In about an hour he was a pro. My wife basically laid or sat as she felt sick. She could not help me much this weekend around the house as she feels too sick to do much. My wife was crying that all she is doing now is complaining. I told her to knock it off. I said you are sick, the drs are trying to figure it out and in the meantime, complain. I told her it stinks and I don't like it either but what are we going to do? I said either get busy dying or get busy living. If this is what you are stuck with then you have to find ways to cope. 

My wife's friends have all abandoned her. Only one brother and one sister has any contact with her and her sister only contacts her infrequently (which is fine with me). My wife did ask me last night if she could have our niece spend the night when she has federal jury duty. My wife says her niece is flipping out over this, does not want to drive to our city. So my wife said she wants to offer to help. I said, "Sure, and I will be spending the night in a hotel when she comes". I said she is a grown adult, has a mother and an older sister who could help her with her anxiety about this. I said she could take the train and stay in a hotel if she does not want to drive in the big city. I don't want a thing to do with this sister or her two daughters. My wife has been hinting around to doing stuff with them and I just say go, but it will be without me. The sad thing was we use to do alot with these kids and since they supported my wife in her A I want nothing to do with them.


----------



## CEL

What where your two questions? How do you feel it is a turning point?


----------



## Thorburn

CEL said:


> What where your two questions? How do you feel it is a turning point?


The first question I had was about her work. My wife went to cosmetology school and had always kept her liscense current but never worked professionally. In 2012 she got a job at a nursing home and she loved it. This was after D-day in 2011. I was OK with it. Then when we decided to buy a new home close to where I work I thought my wife would quit her job. Things were not going well as my wife was still involved in her A (I did not know it) but was stonewalling, lying etc. I thought a clean break from her having any involvement in this area would be best. My wife was adamant about continueing to work at this nursing home in spite of the distance and the close proximity to the XOM. My fear was that she could hook up with the XOM as I would not be able to prove what she was doing with her time. After we moved into our new home my wife did get another job (with the same company) at several locations. She lied about being at work and that is how I finally caught her in February 2013. Her work schedule was not making sense and of course she was saying she had to go back to the nursing home the following day to catch up on residents that she missed, which was bull and using that time to hook up with the XOM. 

The question I asked her was, when she worked at the other location did she ever use that as an excuse to hook up with the XOM like she did in her current location, she said, no, and I asked why she was so adamant about keeping that job as it was close to where the XOM worked and lived. I said it made no sense to me since there are plenty of nursing homes close to where we live now. She explained things to my liking. Her answer took about 1/2 hour or more.

The second question had to do with the XOM's "size". When I listened to the recording from February 2013 my wife was moaning quite a bit. This was the second time they had sex during this time. My wife mentioned said to the XOM how do you want it, and said "backdoor" and laughed. I thought she was having anal, she never moaned like that. My wife was adamant when I kept telling her that it was anal. My youngest son asked for proof and wanted me to send him the recording. I sent him this portion and he told me "Dad, mom is having anal". I did not relent from pushing my wife in telling me what the heck caused her to moan so much. She kept telling me it was not anal. Then one day she said, Mac, I hate to say this but the XOM was large. This bothered me. Last Wendesday I finally said to my wife after she explained to me about the job situation, I said I need to know how large. She said I don't want to cause you anymore pain. I said I need to know. I said was he twice my size and she said no he was bigger than that. She said about three times larger, she said he was really huge. We talked about our sex life, me being average and was she content, etc. I did not get mad, nor was I hurt. I just needed to know. Her explaination and the manner in which she explained things to me was acceptable. She said size does not matter and she laughed and apologized saying it is one of those things that you hear, "that size matters", but she said, it really doesn't matter. 

I served in the military for many years, I have seen huge and small. I know I am average and I am OK with that.

It was a turning in the way my wife explained things. We had a horrible weekend with a big argument. I went into a funk and Wendesday night was very healing for me. My wife has lied twice. Once right after the most recent D-day about a FB comment. It set me off big time. She got what lying does to me and this was a small lie and really inconsequencial in the scheme of things, but she saw what lying creates in me. Then over the weekend she lied again, accusing me of saying and doing things that I did not do. I felt I had enough and it got ugly but we worked it out. 

The conversation on Wednesday went much longer and in greater detail then I wrote but my wife's attitude, what she said and how she said it, was the turning point. It is hard to explain but I feel like I have turned the corner in healing. Not completely there but I felt like a hugh burden has been lifted.


----------



## CEL

Glad you are doing better shyte after what you went through not being a psychopath is a huge testament to your character.

One comment you made us right in the money they get the fun living her and you get the sick, depressed, cheating her. Not fair man I know just a shyte situation. Have you ever told her that's how you feel like they got the good while you got the bad? I don't think it would help I was just interested in what she said. Your story is just so sad I am sorry for you, you are a great guy and a wonderful father I hope you realize that.


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## Thorburn

CEL said:


> Glad you are doing better shyte after what you went through not being a psychopath is a huge testament to your character.
> 
> One comment you made us right in the money they get the fun living her and you get the sick, depressed, cheating her. Not fair man I know just a shyte situation. Have you ever told her that's how you feel like they got the good while you got the bad? I don't think it would help I was just interested in what she said. Your story is just so sad I am sorry for you, you are a great guy and a wonderful father I hope you realize that.


Thanks. I was in a funk some weeks ago just sulking and in pain over what my wife did to me. I was sitting on our front steps. I felt someone behind me and did not even bother turning around. After about 1/2 hour later I got up and my wife was standing inside our storm door in the sun room. She had this pity look on her face. She came out and sat down on our front steps and grabbed my hand and pulled me down to sit beside her. She said "Mac, I am sorry for all the pain I am causing you". She said further, "I have been standing here for a while and just see the pain you are going through and I know I am the cause of this". I said , "You have no idea". I said I feel like a big loser, that I am not even number 2 in your life, I said I feel like I am number 9 or number 20. My wife said that she feels like the loser. I said no you aren't, I am and you are the winner. You got to have lovers and me, you are the one who got to have fun and you threw me to the curb. She said to me. You are not any of those things, but she said you are right in saying I am the winner, she said I won you, and you were the only one who stuck by me.

Honestly, I am seeing remorse in my wife. I look at all she has lost. Did she relly enjoy her A's? If someone would have asked her this months ago, or last year or 4 years ago or in 1999, I believe her answer would had been been "YES". I believe if someone would ask her now she would say, that she was the biggest fool ever. She lost just about all her friends. All her HS friends that she reunited with and some after not talking to them or seeing them in over 30 years, and I mean all of them, want nothing to do with her. Her two older brothers have not been in touch with her at all, even after sending them emails apologizing to them. Her oldest brothe has not been in contact with her in over a year and they use to talk for hours and have fun conversations that lasted for hours at least once a week. My wife has ruined some really good friendships. Me on the other hand, I have gained some new friends and found out that I have some good friends who stuck by me, one sent me over $500.00 when I needed it and I told him not to do it, and another sent me $1000.00 and all without strings attached.

I would not want what my wife ended up with even if the best piece of tail would lay down in front of me right now. My youngest son and her were very close, he rarely talks to his mother. They have not seen each other in months. I visited him last weekend - that was part of what our big fight last weekend was about, but that was her fault for not coming along, I tried to get her to come along with me. 

I can go to sleep at night with the knowledge that I never comprimised the M. She can't. Yes I have the pain of betrayal but I do not live with the pain (like she does) of having caused pain in her life. I did not cause a family spilt. And I could go on.

If a WS is truely repentive and remorseful and truely sees the destruction they have caused, i can only imagine that it is not a real joy in dealing with the aftermath for the WS.

part of me says so be it and part of me has pity.

And truthfully part of me feels some enjoyment in my wife's illness, her suffering, her feeling sick to her stomach, her dizzyness, etc, and part of me has a great deal of compassion. Part of me feels that this is God's punishment and part of me doesn't. And when I put on my theological hat, I know the Scripture says, "The rain falls on the just and the unjust", that essentially good and bad things happen to good and bad people, that my wife's illness is just part of life, whether from God or not.


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## SaltInWound

It has been a while since I cried when reading a post. That one really touched me.


----------



## hopefulgirl

I'm so glad to hear that you feel you've turned the corner in healing - that's big.

There will certainly be some ups and downs, because we're scarred and they are too. But it sounds like the worst may be over, and I certainly hope that's the case!

Health situations in a post-affair couple can shake people up - maybe it helps waywards still in the fog get their priorities straight? 

We certainly WEREN'T high on their priorities list. Health stuff makes 'em think. They realize we're actually pretty important to them when their brain cells are re-engaged, forced into thinking clearly by being scared. I think a lot of them - like my WS - don't stop loving us (as in still feeling a bond, and wanting to be with us long-term), but they don't think much at all about our feelings and are good at compartmentalizing, and we get "put up on a shelf" for awhile. That doesn't make us losers, it just makes us betrayed. WE weren't the ones who did the betraying, and that speaks of loyalty. Loyal spouses are hardly "losers" - being loyal is something to be proud of.

I hope the docs come up with a satisfactory treatment strategy for your wife. It sounds frustrating for both of you. Hope the appropriate medical help comes soon.


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## MattMatt

Has her guilt generated some of her ill health?


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## CEL

That is a great post looking back at all this I can only say WOW I don't know how you did it. I know you have put it up before but could you bullet point her indiscretions many of use have seen it from the beginning but the new ones it would be helpful to see the amount of stuff you went through. Now that you have it all I think it would help posters be able to say "Wow this guy went though the meat grinder and came out stronger for it both with himself and with god I can take this after all." If it would be to painful I understand. My hopes as always are with you.


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## Acabado

Thorburn, man.
I wish no more than continued healing.
You are a great man.


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## carmen ohio

You are an amazing man, Thorburn. I learn something important about the meaning of love and how to live every time I read one of your posts.

God bless you.


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## karole

I hope your wife realizes just how fortunate she is to have a husband like you.


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## r0r0bin

I love the story when cheating wife has disease or sickness because they deserve on this thing. Unlucky husband like you will live with unhappiness. she is a real whhoorre been forgiven, oh and people will have symphathy for her when she is sick. To me she deserve anything worse than this and also to all of her OM i hope they all will have bad things in their life. Bitterness? no It is a appropriate punishment to all of them.

Do you remember when someone here posted about his ex-wife was critically ill and then died because of depression she had after her OM died and she already divorced her ex-H, damn she had so many condoleance, symphathy and prayer but to me those things must not be given to her as she already did the shameful, immoral, selfish and sinful thing in her life. Oh well anyway, the cheating wife in every story never been punished with the equal punishment of their act and the worse, betrayed husband willing to reconcile, grant the second chance and work hard to win them back. THIS WORLD IS FUNNY


----------



## Decorum

Words from the mind speak to the mind, words from the heart speaks to the heart.

Peace and wholeness to you Thorburn. My prayers are with you and your wife.


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## Affaircare

Thorburn, 

I had all kinds of cool, wise thoughts and prayers for you, but honestly, I can't say it better than this:

“The Lord bless you
and keep you;
the Lord make his face shine on you
and be gracious to you;
the Lord turn his face toward you
and give you peace.”

~Numbers 6:24-26


----------



## LongWalk

Thorburn,

Your wife must love you because you are an honest guy. Without you she would be lost.


----------



## Thorburn

LongWalk said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> Your wife must love you because you are an honest guy. Without you she would be lost.


Thanks for your kind words.

She was lost. The last couple days and even last week I have stayed later at work. My wife was upset and wanted to talk last night. I told her that frankly I don't like coming home. I said it hit me last week and has continued till today. My wife said "Mac, I understand your pain. I caused this. BUt I need you here. I look forward to you coming home. I have fun with you." She said, I was at work today (this was yesterday by the way), and was laughing about some of the things you have said or done over the past weeks and was looking to you coming home so I could share my day and have some laughs, and when you came home late I was disappointed. She said please don't work late or sit in a park thinking about things. Come home and share your pain and thoughts with me. 

I promised her that I would starting today. I can't describe exactly what has come over me other then to say that last week I just did not feel like going home. I really don't feel the need to ask questions much. Most have been answered to my satisfaction and I have no nagging ones. I asked one the other day and my wife answered it. I still get angry and I just don't want to go off on my wife. Last night she said, "Mac, you are mad and are advoiding me". I said, yes, I am but I just don't want to go off on you, so I just advoid you. She then said, Mac, I love you, I really like you, I enjoy being with you, don't push me away. She said, when you do this I feel like a complete idiot for what I did to you and it does you no good sitting alone in your thoughts. It will just eat you up and it does you no good nor does it help "us". 

She is right. Today after my groups in the locked psych units I will head home. 

I am here thinking that I feel like I just got punched in the stomach again and it started last week. Weird how this stuff keeps finding it's way back into your head. When I counsel Veterans I talk about intrusive thoughts and I can certainly relate to those things that we witnessed in combat and the thoughts that sometimes have a way of intrusively invading your mind. I have PTSD from my combat tour and it suc*s. But what my wife did to me does not compare. I know I will get beyond this and I also know that these waves of emotions will continue for a while. They are getting better but I hate these set backs. 

I can't have sex at all with my wife without thinking about what she did. I have tried everything to get these thoughts out of my head but since the time we started R there has not been one time where I have not thought about her and the XOM, not once. I have not shared this with her. Don't know if it will help me to share it or not but I feel like it is part of the "curse" of infidelity. I am really hoping it goes away. 

The MRI came back negative. My wife does not have brain tumors as her doctor suspected. She is at the doctors right now and I will see what he suspects now that brain tumors are ruled out. Her condition seems to be getting worse on some days.

Anyway, I am moving forward. Went backwards the last week a little bit but I think I am back on track.


----------



## turnera

That's why it's called a rollercoaster, Thorburn. Better days are ahead, no matter how this marriage turns out.


----------



## CH

You are a saint, and angel disguised as a human...

I don't know how many who could have endured what you have and still stayed married. GL to you.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Glad to hear it's not tumors. Inner ear structural issue maybe? Hope it's sorted out soon.

Intrusive thoughts - yes, it's not PTSD, nobody died or was threatened with death, but it's still daily for me, and it makes us "casualties" of infidelity.

I'm hoping that by discussing things in a more controlled way - on scheduled days and in MC - I'll get some relief. I also hope that time will eventually make the frequency and intensity of these intrusive thoughts lessen.

It's so hard to feel close again after infidelity, isn't it? But that's what the goal is; I see light at the end of the tunnel, but it's a long tunnel....


----------



## Thorburn

Just an update. Things are going fairly well. A few bumps last weekend. I went off on her Friday morning, but was able to fix it before I went off to work. My wife will see a neurologist within a month. She still has vertigo, ringing in her ear, nausea and it has not gotten better in over a month. Additionally she got poison ivy last week for the first time in her life. 

She has been very remorseful, apologetic and doing pretty good.


----------



## bfree

Thorburn said:


> Just an update. Things are going fairly well. A few bumps last weekend. I went off on her Friday morning, but was able to fix it before I went off to work. My wife will see a neurologist within a month. She still has vertigo, ringing in her ear, nausea and it has not gotten better in over a month. Additionally she got poison ivy last week for the first time in her life.
> 
> She has been very remorseful, apologetic and doing pretty good.


Thorburn,

You have no idea how hard I'm praying for you and your wife.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Thorburn said:


> Just an update. Things are going fairly well. A few bumps last weekend. I went off on her Friday morning, but was able to fix it before I went off to work. My wife will see a neurologist within a month. She still has vertigo, ringing in her ear, nausea and it has not gotten better in over a month. Additionally she got poison ivy last week for the first time in her life.
> 
> She has been very remorseful, apologetic and doing pretty good.


Glad you are doing better...btw your mail box is full I tried to send you a PM


----------



## Thorburn

bfree said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> You have no idea how hard I'm praying for you and your wife.


Thanks. Prayer does change things. My wife truely had an awakening in Christ and it is very telling. She is reading the Bible and we read it together. We pray together. Her spirit has really been great. Even with all her health issues she has been fighting the temptation to complain. She told me she does not want to complain to me and I know that there are times she is suffering.


----------



## Thorburn

Truthseeker1 said:


> Glad you are doing better...btw your mail box is full I tried to send you a PM


Got a bunch of PM's should be good now.


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## aug

The cynical me cant help but think she's behaving herself now because of her health issues and looming mortality. Probably wants to have a chance to knock on St. Peter's gate?


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## dymo

Kind of agree. She seems remorseful, but she's very ill and dependent on you right now. It's not hard to feel ill at thoughts of cheating when you actually are physically ill. If she gets better, that's the real test.


----------



## LostViking

Sounds like she has Ménière's disease. My dad had it Thorburn, and he was never able to get rid of it completely. 

Its a disease of the inner ear and it causes vertigo, sporadic hearing loss, and tinitus (buzzing in the ear). It is a Herpes related disease. My dad picked it up when he was in the Norwegian Navy, god knows where. My dad engaged in a rather unhealthy lifestyle before he met my mother. 

I hope that is not what she has.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



aug said:


> The cynical me cant help but think she's behaving herself now because of her health issues and looming mortality. Probably wants to have a chance to knock on St. Peter's gate?


I can be cynical as well and quite frankly when I read that Thorburn was giving his wife yet another chance I initially counseled against it. Call me crazy but for some reason I'm starting to believe she finally had realized that she was about to lose everything due to her own fear. I believe she was fearful of looking in the mirror and seeing the ugliness she had cultivated looking back. I think when Thorburn started to detach and got to a point of not carrying about her one way or another the self induced fog of denial finally lifted and she saw reality for the first time in years. As far as her illness is concerned I'm thinking it's all the years of stress finally catching up to her. Maybe she can continue to work to purge this blackness from her system and get illness will improve.


----------



## Thorburn

LostViking said:


> Sounds like she has Ménière's disease. My dad had it Thorburn, and he was never able to get rid of it completely.
> 
> Its a disease of the inner ear and it causes vertigo, sporadic hearing loss, and tinitus (buzzing in the ear). It is a Herpes related disease. My dad picked it up when he was in the Norwegian Navy, god knows where. My dad engaged in a rather unhealthy lifestyle before he met my mother.
> 
> I hope that is not what she has.


Thanks. I looked at this after your post. It could very well be this. She has many of the symptoms and I mean many of them. One of the couses is brain trauma and she has had that.


----------



## Thorburn

Deleted my update, I am just so freaken upset. It all started on Tuesday, I was not far from home and an acorn fell on the roof of my truck. I did not know what hit my turck and it was loud. At first I thought it was a bullet and I had a flashback to Iraq. I did not share this with anyone but I have been quite a mess inside for the past few days. I deal with this in counseling and it is quite common but it suc*s the big one when it happens to you. So my anxiety has been through the roof. Then last night.

After work last night I found my VARs and was going to erase everything. I have most of it saved anyway. I have not listened to this crap in a long while. So I started to listen to a portion of each segment before I erased it. Well I discovered over 4 hours worth of recording in one segment that I had not heard before. I finally got to the point where I hear my wife and the XOM. Not sure of the date. I suspect that it is prior to Feb. 6 2013 when I caught her, and after July 2012. Every dam* time I have these VARs I am so upset that I just never took the time to figure out how the VAR recorded things, and somehow missed this one. 

When I got home I was so upset I just went into the bedroom, felt like screw the dogs, my son, my wife. They typicallly all greet me. When my wife talked to me, I was reading the Bible, just needed to read something positive. Just had a sucky evening. My wife cried herself to sleep next to me. She suggested that I just get rid of this stuff that there will be nothing really new. I have not done so. I listened to some of it on the way to work, so far just typical conversation I guess it will be a matter of time before I hear the moans, unless they went to a hotel. Though they seem to have been driving quite a bit. 

I have not been asking my wife any questions for weeks but I did last night and a few times this morning. She knows this is very upsetting to me and perhaps I am just a sucker to listen to this shi*. Just so pis*ed off again. I believe it is from December. 

I am just a freaken mess inside. Had a bunch of counseling sessions and everyone thinks I am just doing great. I stayed focused, had good sessions today, my boss told me I am doing great, and I am just one freaken mess. Frankly, no one would know. I just have a way of holding this crap inside. The two other counslesors told me that I am being chipper today. Well, if they only freaken knew. 

R has been doing OK. My wife saw the neurologist today and he scheduled more tests and therapy. He does not know what she has but offered some guessess.

But this new recording has set me for a loop and my wife knows it. 

I am just venting. Trying to work through this stuff.

S

I feel like day one all over again. Like I said, this seems to be old stuff but am not 100% sure might be from December.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Hate to hear that you are having set-backs.

It is good to vent.

How does this affect your R? Sounds like you are worried that you missed part of the past. Does it feel like a TT from your wife?

It sounds from your posts that you have a deep understanding of the whole deal. Just wondering if this is a bump in the road, or a feeling that it will always be difficult to R.


----------



## badbane

Thorburn said:


> Deleted my update, I am just so freaken upset. It all started on Tuesday, I was not far from home and an acorn fell on the roof of my truck. I did not know what hit my turck and it was loud. At first I thought it was a bullet and I had a flashback to Iraq. I did not share this with anyone but I have been quite a mess inside for the past few days. I deal with this in counseling and it is quite common but it suc*s the big one when it happens to you. So my anxiety has been through the roof. Then last night.
> 
> After work last night I found my VARs and was going to erase everything. I have most of it saved anyway. I have not listened to this crap in a long while. So I started to listen to a portion of each segment before I erased it. Well I discovered over 4 hours worth of recording in one segment that I had not heard before. I finally got to the point where I hear my wife and the XOM. Not sure of the date. I suspect that it is prior to Feb. 6 2013 when I caught her, and after July 2012. Every dam* time I have these VARs I am so upset that I just never took the time to figure out how the VAR recorded things, and somehow missed this one.
> 
> When I got home I was so upset I just went into the bedroom, felt like screw the dogs, my son, my wife. They typicallly all greet me. When my wife talked to me, I was reading the Bible, just needed to read something positive. Just had a sucky evening. My wife cried herself to sleep next to me. She suggested that I just get rid of this stuff that there will be nothing really new. I have not done so. I listened to some of it on the way to work, so far just typical conversation I guess it will be a matter of time before I hear the moans, unless they went to a hotel. Though they seem to have been driving quite a bit.
> 
> I have not been asking my wife any questions for weeks but I did last night and a few times this morning. She knows this is very upsetting to me and perhaps I am just a sucker to listen to this shi*. Just so pis*ed off again. I believe it is from December.
> 
> I am just a freaken mess inside. Had a bunch of counseling sessions and everyone thinks I am just doing great. I stayed focused, had good sessions today, my boss told me I am doing great, and I am just one freaken mess. Frankly, no one would know. I just have a way of holding this crap inside. The two other counslesors told me that I am being chipper today. Well, if they only freaken knew.
> 
> R has been doing OK. My wife saw the neurologist today and he scheduled more tests and therapy. He does not know what she has but offered some guessess.
> 
> But this new recording has set me for a loop and my wife knows it.
> 
> I am just venting. Trying to work through this stuff.
> 
> S
> 
> I feel like day one all over again. Like I said, this seems to be old stuff but am not 100% sure might be from December.


If your VAR uses and sd card. Put it in your computer and right click on the file and click on properties. About halfway down you will see three dates 

Created: date and time the file was created. This will be wrong if you copy the file from the SD card since copying creates a new file. However if you still have the sd card the recordings are on, you can go into that sd card, right click on the file, and see the date created of the original file. To preserve this cut and paste rather than copy the files off of the computer. 

Now if you are using a Var with internal memory and have to use a usb cable the method is going to be the same. plug in the recorder and removable disk should show up. Open up the memory in the VAR and look at the properties in each file to see the date.

Modified: Lists the last time a file was actually changed.

Accessed: This one is self explanatory.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Thorburn said:


> Deleted my update, I am just so freaken upset...
> 
> When I got home I was so upset
> 
> Just so pis*ed off again... I believe it is from December.
> 
> I am just a freaken mess inside...
> 
> *Had a bunch of counseling sessions and everyone thinks I am just doing great. I stayed focused, had good sessions today, my boss told me I am doing great, and I am just one freaken mess....Well, if they only freaken knew. *
> 
> I feel like day one all over again. Like I said, this seems to be old stuff but am not 100% sure might be from December.


Thornburn,

It seems very clear that you are in a deep hole right now. Just wondering why your conseling sessions, your boss, and everyone thinks you are great. 

I know how bad it is to keep stuff inside. I would think that you should have an outlet, such as your counselor or boss.

You also used a word, "focused." It is pretty damn difficult sometimes. Any way you can step back or out for a reprive?

Are you feeling like you are in limbo more than in R? Just wondering.

It made me feel like a failure to finally admit to myself that I couldn't do R. It was several months after her confession to the PA.

Hope these things help you at least a tiny amount.


----------



## Thorburn

No TT. Just found a recording on the VAR that I was not aware. I had the VAR in her car from time to time from about April 2012 till Feb. 2013. I put it in her car two weeks ago and listened to that and it was as she explained. She did some sub work near where the XOM lives and I just wanted to be sure. She did nothing untoward and told me everything she did to include the guy she talk to who help her put the dog food in her car, I did not question her and she willingly told me what she did. I have the converstaion of her and the guy who helped her put the dog food in her car. Nothing bad there. 

Just a bump and a reuniting of those dam* feelings. The way my wife reacted to me was reassuring. I knew she felt bad about the whole thing and apologized for causing this. She said she thought we would have a good evening and then I came home upset. She asked me at bedtime if I wanted to be left alone. She said she gets the feeling I want to be left alone. I said, really. I sat here and read the Bible, while you sat beside me, I gave my wife a bath, we talked about things, I said we even snuggled for a bit, if I wanted to be alone I would not be here. She asked me if I am mad at her. I said, I am upset over finding this new recording, but that is all. 

So I suspect nothing new but I am going to listen to it.


----------



## Thorburn

badbane said:


> If your VAR uses and sd card. Put it in your computer and right click on the file and click on properties. About halfway down you will see three dates
> 
> Created: date and time the file was created. This will be wrong if you copy the file from the SD card since copying creates a new file. However if you still have the sd card the recordings are on, you can go into that sd card, right click on the file, and see the date created of the original file. To preserve this cut and paste rather than copy the files off of the computer.
> 
> Now if you are using a Var with internal memory and have to use a usb cable the method is going to be the same. plug in the recorder and removable disk should show up. Open up the memory in the VAR and look at the properties in each file to see the date.
> 
> Modified: Lists the last time a file was actually changed.
> 
> Accessed: This one is self explanatory.


I bought an Olympus VN 7100. No USB, no card. I believe I did everything right when I did the time and date. It shows that this was recorded early in the morning on December 26, 2012 if I am reading it right. I had more time to look at it. The display says 2012. 12.26. If that is the case I would have to see if the day after Christmas she went to "work". I can't remember but I think I had to work that day and took the following week off.

Honestly the exact date does not matter to me, as long as it was prior to February 6 2013. This would just be more old news.


----------



## badmemory

Thorburn said:


> I have not listened to this crap in a long while. So I started to listen to a portion of each segment before I erased it. Well I discovered over 4 hours worth of recording in one segment that I had not heard before. I finally got to the point where I hear my wife and the XOM.


You know Thorburn, I have no idea behind the psychological motivation that some BS's have to re-visit infidelity evidence. I wish I knew, because I'm one of them myself.

For almost two years, I've regularly re-read portions of the POSOM's e-mails to my wife. It's probably been about 6 weeks since I last did it, and I'm getting better about it, but even now I have an urge to look at them again.

If I had to theorize, it's because I can't seem to completely forgive her. In a weird way it's like I feel that she deserves my moodiness after I do - as a continuing consequence; and it often seems to happen after I endure a trigger. I know that's "stinkin thinkin", but I can't seem to help myself.

You and I know both know we shouldn't, but we do anyway.


----------



## turnera

You of all people should know you can't just stuff this crap inside you and pretend you are fine. Shame on you for trying. Schedule a weekly therapy session for yourself for the next 3 months.


----------



## Thorburn

Lovemytruck said:


> Thornburn,
> 
> It seems very clear that you are in a deep hole right now. Just wondering why your conseling sessions, your boss, and everyone thinks you are great.
> 
> I know how bad it is to keep stuff inside. I would think that you should have an outlet, such as your counselor or boss.
> 
> You also used a word, "focused." It is pretty damn difficult sometimes. Any way you can step back or out for a reprive?
> 
> Are you feeling like you are in limbo more than in R? Just wondering.
> 
> It made me feel like a failure to finally admit to myself that I couldn't do R. It was several months after her confession to the PA.
> 
> Hope these things help you at least a tiny amount.


Can't go to the boss with this stuff. I am not seeing a counselor. Right now I don't think I need one. 

Not in limbo, just found this darn recording, and it is triggering crap big time. 

Have not had a drink in months and am not even tempted. 

I guess in a way I have just tempered my thoughts about my wife's A. Let them come and go and I have not really shared them with my wife. My thoughts are pretty whacked out anyway. 

Staying focused is a coping skill that I learned some time ago. It is like in Iraq, when all hel* was breaking out around you, you somehow stayed the course. It is what we call muscle memory. You train as you fight and you fight as you train. So when my inner thoughts are racing, and I feel my anxiety is way up there, I can sit through a counseling session, focus on the client and stay engaged. If I feel my mind is going astray, I ask a question. Somehow I never tune out. Just something I have learned.


----------



## mahike

badmemory said:


> You know Thorburn, I have no idea behind the psychological motivation that some BS's have to re-visit infidelity evidence. I wish I knew, because I'm one of them myself.
> 
> For almost two years, I've regularly re-read portions of the POSOM's e-mails to my wife. It's probably been about 6 weeks since I last did it, and I'm getting better about it, but even now I have an urge to look at them again.
> 
> If I had to theorize, it's because I can't seem to completely forgive her. In a weird way it's like I feel that she deserves my moodiness after I do - as a continuing consequence; and it often seems to happen after I endure a trigger. I know that's "stinkin thinkin", but I can't seem to help myself.
> 
> You and I know both know we shouldn't, but we do anyway.


I had a file folder full of the crap I found, emails, texts, pictures and videos on a thumb drive and the hotel statements. Last week I put them in our outdoor fire pit and set it all on fire. I knew if I did not do this I would just go on re reading it for the rest of my life. It felt very freeing to me but I did have tear rolling down my face because I still want to know why I hav to suffer through this


----------



## badmemory

mahike said:


> I had a file folder full of the crap I found, emails, texts, pictures and videos on a thumb drive and the hotel statements. Last week I put them in our outdoor fire pit and set it all on fire. I knew if I did not do this I would just go on re reading it for the rest of my life. It felt very freeing to me but I did have tear rolling down my face because I still want to know why I hav to suffer through this


Good for you mahike.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> You of all people should know you can't just stuff this crap inside you and pretend you are fine. Shame on you for trying. Schedule a weekly therapy session for yourself for the next 3 months.


turnera, I did not say I was fine. Ok, I am on edge. I stopped my anti-anxiety meds four days ago, and blew off seeing my pyschiatrist last week. The other night when my special needs son was pushing every button known to man about buying a new release game, after I told him, I would buy it, instead of blowing up on him, after hours of, "Dad, here is the phone the guy wants to talk to you", and my wife telling him to leave me alone, that Dad is doing bills and when he is done, he will order it for you, I did not blow up, I got up and took a walk. Ok, I did not have shoes on, and it was cold, but I did not blow up. 

Then the acorn hitting the roof of my truck and sending me back to Iraq, and finding this new recording from last year, I actually think I am doing OK under the circumstances. 

I have not had sex in a week, my wife has been sick. She asked last night and even started things, but I was not in the mood.

I have a bunch of old American Chestnut wood from an old corn crib. I made two large shelves. Hung one in the living room abve the couch and one in the dining room. And they did not pull the plaster off the walls and smash to the floor. That wood is heavy and thick. I actually figured out how to anchor them into the studs. I never had a plaster walled house before. The last shelf I tried to hang in the dining room came crashing down the next day, smashing some antiques. And it was not one I made and was about 50 pounds lighter. 

Doing wood work has been a good therapy for me. I have about 40, 12 foot chestnut beams to denail, a joiner planer to set up. So that will keep my mind busy while I work through this crap.

I have no desire to get drunk. No thoughts of blowing out my brains or anyone elses for that matter. I have no desire to ambush my wife about this stuff.

All I want right now is to go back to the Virgin Islands, swim with the squid, snorkle, like I did last year and chill for a while. And I would like to do this with my wife. Last year, we had fun, rented a jeep. I would just like to go back with her not thinking about the XOM, talking to him and texting him on her phone while we were there. She ruined Disney and Florida and I will never go back there. 

So, If I seem to be stuffing this, maybe I am. And maybe it is being off the meds. 

Right now I am advoiding driving in rush hour traffic. I live 12 miles from work and it can take me up to two hours to get home on some nights. Sometimes 45 minutes most nights typically 1 1/2 hours. 

Also, I did not sleep well last night. Should have taken my sleep pills, they actually are pretty good. Tossed and turned most of the night.

So ask me tomorrow how I feel. 

You may be correct and I am not in any way dismissing what you have said.

But you are not my mom, lol.


----------



## Thorburn

badmemory said:


> You know Thorburn, I have no idea behind the psychological motivation that some BS's have to re-visit infidelity evidence. I wish I knew, because I'm one of them myself.
> 
> For almost two years, I've regularly re-read portions of the POSOM's e-mails to my wife. It's probably been about 6 weeks since I last did it, and I'm getting better about it, but even now I have an urge to look at them again.
> 
> If I had to theorize, it's because I can't seem to completely forgive her. In a weird way it's like I feel that she deserves my moodiness after I do - as a continuing consequence; and it often seems to happen after I endure a trigger. I know that's "stinkin thinkin", but I can't seem to help myself.
> 
> You and I know both know we shouldn't, but we do anyway.


For me, I kept the hard drives from 1999. Never looked at that stuff since I gave it to her family for proof. Yea I have stuff from 2010 and then from 2011 till now. For me, I would like to get rid of it all, but if she ever does this crap again, I will bring it all out and post all of it. For me it was all the lies. Presenting proof, showing her phone records and her saying, I did not do that. Me pointing to the phone records, saying that is the XOM's number. her saying, I did not call him. Me pointing again at the paper. Three or four times. Then she saying, yes I did call him. Then FB. She told me last year she would never get on it again. I came home, looked at history and there it was, 4:30 A.M., she missed deleting one thing. I showed her. She said, it was not her. I said look at the history. Phillies, her news site she looks at, from 4:15 till 4:30, then FB, then more Phillies stuff. I said, why were you up at 4 A.M. on the internet? I showed her everything and for an hour she said it was not her. Then she admitted to me that she did it and lied because she knew I would be mad. Mad. I was mad at her lying and trying to hide stuff.

So, for me, I really don't care to look at it, just upsets me, but I look at it as insurance. Maybe I will be able to just get rid of it in the future.


----------



## theroad

Thorburn, your problem is that all evidence needed to be looked at and then put away and not to look at again.

This should of been done when you made the recordings. Not a long time after the decision to recover has been made.

To do so is only keeping the affair alive in your memory.

Your job to do if you accept the assignment is to finish looking at the last of the evidence. Then put it away to never look at again.


----------



## illwill

Let it go. You need no insurance if she does this again. You know the history and that is all that matters. Check the dates and toss them. Nightmares are like dreams, you have to feed them to keep them alive. Stop feeding them!


----------



## Tony55

Hey old friend, we knew this was going to happen, the real world has a way of doing that, just remember, it'll pass.

Think about it like one of those times in your life when you were a kid and got so drunk you couldn't stop throwing up, hugging the toilet with the dry heaves, so sick you wanted to die, but knowing in the back of your head that come morning all this will be behind you? Well it's like that right now, so just hug the toilet and push through it, you've been through the worst of it, and in a few days it'll feel better. But rest assured, you'll do it again, and you'll get sick again, and you'll be back on the floor hugging the porcelain for another night (week) of agony; that's the price you pay when you choose to stay with the one who ripped your heart out, that's the real world.

T


----------



## Affaircare

Thorburn said:


> turnera, I did not say I was fine. Ok, I am on edge. I stopped my anti-anxiety meds four days ago, and blew off seeing my pyschiatrist last week.


Thor, I know you're a Christian man so I'm going to address you as a fellow brother in Christ, and I'm letting you know that because as you well know, some things are different for us if we're truly trying to live the life that pleases God and brings Him glory. 

So the first thing I wonder about is this medication statement. You stopped your meds four days again and here you are four days later stressed out and having flashbacks. I'm not sure four days is long enough to have this big of an effect, but I bet it has something to do with it. 

My brother, I don't encourage people to be on meds just to take pills, and I often do encourage people to be as natural as possible; however that being said, this may be a physical issue. You know as well as I do that often just stopping a med cold turkey has ... well side-effects. So if stopping is truly what you want to do and what you are determined to do, then you're a smart man. You know that their first two weeks will be absolutely hell and the next two weeks to thirty days will be sh!tty. If your choice is to stop--this the the hell part. Just acknowledge it's the hell of stopping a med and it will take a couple weeks to get out of your system.



> Then the acorn hitting the roof of my truck and sending me back to Iraq, and finding this new recording from last year, I actually think I am doing OK under the circumstances.


 Okay this is a toughie because not too many folks can really identify with this. Having been beaten as a child I know exactly what you mean when you say "flashback" because for all intents and purposes, to your BODY it feels exactly as if you are right back there. AND in your mind you still see and hear and smell and feel it (because your body is physically reliving it). 

So you know how you say you "focus"? Yeah that's a coping skill. I've done that. I know the pattern on the couch intimately because I focused on it so intently while I was being hit that it sort of numbed the awareness of the pain. But Thorburn, you know and I know that getting into a pattern of reliving flashbacks and hyper-focusing to not lessen the depth of reliving it is not a healthy pattern. So my brother you need to use a skill that is new and it healthy. That involves two things: 

1) You are going to have to do something uncomfortable and that means letting one other person know what is really going on in your head. I personally suggest POSSIBLY your spouse, because the two of you are one and are intimate mentally, emotionally, and spiritually (as well as physically). Take the chance to REVEAL yourself to her and give her the gift of comforting you. Now it's conceivable you may say that this is above her abilities to comprehend and cope, and since you're there and I'm here I'll trust your judgement on that. If you can, be transparent with her, but if you truly deem that you can't, be transparent with your p-doc or a pastor or brother...someone you trust. M'kay?

2) You may live through it if you do that hyper-focus thing, but it keeps the cycle of flashbacks going. So here's what I do. I let it start to happen. I feel all the fear and stress and pain and whatever and acknowledge it's happening. And then I do something EXTREMELY senses-oriented here in the present. As as example, I very specifically look at something beautiful, smell a rose, taste some good food or tea, feel the soft fur of the teddy bear I'm holding... you get the drift. And I say out loud--so that my ears hear it--that I am in the PRESENT and I am safe and grown up. Now my thing occurred when I was a kid and that's a whole 'nother dynamic, but yours was as an adult and the trauma of betrayal is just as real as the trauma of war. So don't avoid it--face it and get sensory HERE in the present and remind yourself out loud that you are here now, your wife chose you, you have chosen to forgive her even though you don't forget, and you two are happy and in love NOW. M'kay?



> I have not had sex in a week, my wife has been sick. She asked last night and even started things, but I was not in the mood.


I'm not a guy but sounds to me like the it wouldn't kill ya to have a little stress reliever and have a romp in the hay. You know not all sex is all active and stressful and sweaty. Sometimes it's slow and sweet and gentle and feels AWESOME! So I'd say if you're not in the mood, tell her you'd be willing to be convinced. 


Finally, I'm not your mom, but speaking as a Christian, I can say that I personally understand why you keep "the evidence"... to periodically remind yourself you weren't nuts or making false accusations. By the same token, you have agreed to forgive your wife, and the way you forgive is not to continuously keep the offense (which is in the past) front and center in your mind. In fact, Romans 12:2 tells us that one of the signs of Christian maturity is RENEWING our minds. I'm not saying to be all Pollyanna, but rather to think of it as honoring the choice you made to forgive. At some point you lay down the weapon and you choose to walk away from it and never pick it up again. 

So I suggest that you and your wife take that old evidence, wrap it very nicely and box it up in a box or whatever, and very ceremoniously place it SECURELY in a safe deposit box in the bank. That way you have your insurance, but you are getting out of your house and out of your MIND. Also you are taking a decisive step forward in putting it AWAY. And when you think of that evidence and what she did in the past--it happened. Mourn. But then look and what she did TODAY. And what she is showing you with her actions she wants to do TOMORROW. And renew your mind with where you are now. 

I'm here to encourage you, bro. Now let's get out there and be who God wants us to be in the face of adversity.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Thorburn -

I really like the idea of putting the recordings in a safe deposit box. I think taking them out of your home where you're less likely to listen to them is a good idea.

My husband had over a thousand text messages with the OW. He erased all of them, but I've printed out the phone records so I know the dates and times of day when they occurred. Like many (most?) of us, I keep those pieces of evidence. 

I was actually relieved to find out that he'd erased all those text messages. Because I would have tried to read them. I know a lot of it was sexting, and it would have made me sick to my stomach if I had been able to read them. I can't even begin to imagine hearing my husband's voice and hers while they were "doing it." It's entirely possible I'd not only vomit but maybe even hyperventilate and pass out. Hearing that is a kind of torture I'm glad I was spared. I have not asked for any sex details and don't intend to - that's TMI.

Someone else here once said we generally don't agonize over the sex our spouses had with people before we married them, so maybe we can play a mind game with ourselves and try to put the sex they had with the affair partner in that same mental compartment. I know it's not really the same, but it's the DETAILS like sexting (foreplay) in my case, and moaning and any other sounds that you may have heard that I think is just too much trauma heaped on the trauma we've already endured.

I hope you'll consider this idea of putting the recordings in a safe deposit box. I get not wanting to destroy them (yet) but making them less accessible may be a good thing for your healing.


----------



## Thorburn

Tony55 said:


> Hey old friend, we knew this was going to happen, the real world has a way of doing that, just remember, it'll pass.
> 
> Think about it like one of those times in your life when you were a kid and got so drunk you couldn't stop throwing up, hugging the toilet with the dry heaves, so sick you wanted to die, but knowing in the back of your head that come morning all this will be behind you? Well it's like that right now, so just hug the toilet and push through it, you've been through the worst of it, and in a few days it'll feel better. But rest assured, you'll do it again, and you'll get sick again, and you'll be back on the floor hugging the porcelain for another night (week) of agony; that's the price you pay when you choose to stay with the one who ripped your heart out, that's the real world.
> 
> T


Thanks. Been there as a teenager, I remember the porcelain god.


----------



## Thorburn

Affaircare said:


> Thor, I know you're a Christian man so I'm going to address you as a fellow brother in Christ, and I'm letting you know that because as you well know, some things are different for us if we're truly trying to live the life that pleases God and brings Him glory.
> 
> So the first thing I wonder about is this medication statement. You stopped your meds four days again and here you are four days later stressed out and having flashbacks. I'm not sure four days is long enough to have this big of an effect, but I bet it has something to do with it.
> 
> My brother, I don't encourage people to be on meds just to take pills, and I often do encourage people to be as natural as possible; however that being said, this may be a physical issue. You know as well as I do that often just stopping a med cold turkey has ... well side-effects. So if stopping is truly what you want to do and what you are determined to do, then you're a smart man. You know that their first two weeks will be absolutely hell and the next two weeks to thirty days will be sh!tty. If your choice is to stop--this the the hell part. Just acknowledge it's the hell of stopping a med and it will take a couple weeks to get out of your system.
> 
> Okay this is a toughie because not too many folks can really identify with this. Having been beaten as a child I know exactly what you mean when you say "flashback" because for all intents and purposes, to your BODY it feels exactly as if you are right back there. AND in your mind you still see and hear and smell and feel it (because your body is physically reliving it).
> 
> So you know how you say you "focus"? Yeah that's a coping skill. I've done that. I know the pattern on the couch intimately because I focused on it so intently while I was being hit that it sort of numbed the awareness of the pain. But Thorburn, you know and I know that getting into a pattern of reliving flashbacks and hyper-focusing to not lessen the depth of reliving it is not a healthy pattern. So my brother you need to use a skill that is new and it healthy. That involves two things:
> 
> 1) You are going to have to do something uncomfortable and that means letting one other person know what is really going on in your head. I personally suggest POSSIBLY your spouse, because the two of you are one and are intimate mentally, emotionally, and spiritually (as well as physically). Take the chance to REVEAL yourself to her and give her the gift of comforting you. Now it's conceivable you may say that this is above her abilities to comprehend and cope, and since you're there and I'm here I'll trust your judgement on that. If you can, be transparent with her, but if you truly deem that you can't, be transparent with your p-doc or a pastor or brother...someone you trust. M'kay?
> 
> 2) You may live through it if you do that hyper-focus thing, but it keeps the cycle of flashbacks going. So here's what I do. I let it start to happen. I feel all the fear and stress and pain and whatever and acknowledge it's happening. And then I do something EXTREMELY senses-oriented here in the present. As as example, I very specifically look at something beautiful, smell a rose, taste some good food or tea, feel the soft fur of the teddy bear I'm holding... you get the drift. And I say out loud--so that my ears hear it--that I am in the PRESENT and I am safe and grown up. Now my thing occurred when I was a kid and that's a whole 'nother dynamic, but yours was as an adult and the trauma of betrayal is just as real as the trauma of war. So don't avoid it--face it and get sensory HERE in the present and remind yourself out loud that you are here now, your wife chose you, you have chosen to forgive her even though you don't forget, and you two are happy and in love NOW. M'kay?
> 
> 
> I'm not a guy but sounds to me like the it wouldn't kill ya to have a little stress reliever and have a romp in the hay. You know not all sex is all active and stressful and sweaty. Sometimes it's slow and sweet and gentle and feels AWESOME! So I'd say if you're not in the mood, tell her you'd be willing to be convinced.
> 
> 
> Finally, I'm not your mom, but speaking as a Christian, I can say that I personally understand why you keep "the evidence"... to periodically remind yourself you weren't nuts or making false accusations. By the same token, you have agreed to forgive your wife, and the way you forgive is not to continuously keep the offense (which is in the past) front and center in your mind. In fact, Romans 12:2 tells us that one of the signs of Christian maturity is RENEWING our minds. I'm not saying to be all Pollyanna, but rather to think of it as honoring the choice you made to forgive. At some point you lay down the weapon and you choose to walk away from it and never pick it up again.
> 
> So I suggest that you and your wife take that old evidence, wrap it very nicely and box it up in a box or whatever, and very ceremoniously place it SECURELY in a safe deposit box in the bank. That way you have your insurance, but you are getting out of your house and out of your MIND. Also you are taking a decisive step forward in putting it AWAY. And when you think of that evidence and what she did in the past--it happened. Mourn. But then look and what she did TODAY. And what she is showing you with her actions she wants to do TOMORROW. And renew your mind with where you are now.
> 
> I'm here to encourage you, bro. Now let's get out there and be who God wants us to be in the face of adversity.


Did you speak to my wife yesterday? LOL We had a long talk on the phone. I was ignoring her messages and phone calls and finally called her. She was upset. Told me that she was praying for me all day. She really laid things out for me, about forgiveness, letting go and letting God take this, learning to trust again, not her but God, to let God handle this and give it to him, that if God can forgive and forget that I shuold try to do so as well. She kept reassuring me that she knows she is to blame for the pain, mistrust, etc. 100%, and that she is 100% with me, that I gave her a gift in taking her back after all the horrible things she did to me.

When I got home she was in the driveway as she just got home from taking out son to church. I told her about the acorn, the meds, etc. She told me to let her know when I have these flashbacks and triggers related to my PTSD. She said she can't help me as she is not trained and that I need to go see my psychiatrist that I blew off last week. She said she wants to know when these things happen. We talked and then went and played with the dogs. She then told me she wanted to "do something".

This morning I finished listening to the recording on my way to work.

Can't explain it, but it had no ill effect on me. I don't feel numb, mad, or anything like that. It is as if, OK , I listened, and there iit is. I don't feel stressed out this morning.

I did not purposely stop taking the meds to stop. I was running low and wanted to spread them out. One of the symptoms of my PTSD is that I get stuck sometimes following through and I simply have not re-ordered my meds. If right now is an indication of how I am going to feel I don't need them, but, they did help somewhat. I really started taking them on the last d-day. I had them for about a year or more and never took them but I remember Bandit telling me last year to take meds and I did not listen. I do believe they helped me big time in February, March, etc, when I was really going through hel* with my wife.

The acorn incident really rattled my cage. PTSD is what I deal with primarily in my clients and I can relate. Often times it just hits you out of the blue (like the acorn hitting my truck roof). I remember one time I was visiting a high school friend who was home from the Navy. His apartment was next to a park and it was July 3rd. They set off a firework and I jumped under his table and put my hands over my head. He sat there and said, what the hel* are you doing? I said, Dale, you have no idea what I went through. He was in submarines and had no combat duty. 

When my wife was telling me that she understands my mistrust and pain, after her many years of lies, deceit, etc, I just listened. She said, you need to have peace and you have to give this all to God. 

She is correct. I have proven over the past several months that she has told the truth. I can tell, even when she gets sick, that she is thinking of me. There is not that irritation with me that she had, or those subtle things that use to set my spider senses off. Some of you can relate. And it all has to do with the fact that she was thinking about someone else and I was the person who was preventing her from having complete freedom with her lover. 

I don't rejoice in this but I will reiterate what she has lost. All her friends abandoned her. She did reach out to one of them two weeks ago and she responded in a nice way through text, saying she is not mad at my wife. He family is still torn. The two oldest brothers have not responded to my wife's pleas to forgive her. Her two sisters and youngest brother talk and text but not like they use to do. Frankly, I owe her brother a little money and once that is paid off, I really have no desire to be around her family. She got sick and saw a neurologist yesterday who told her that her condition may never improve, or they may never get to the bottom of what is causing her illness. That she will be going through a battery of tests but she should look at it as a life long illness that may never be resolved. That he has seen these types of symptoms before and that they can point to a number of things and if they are any of the ones he suggested, there is no cure, so she may have to learn to live with it. My wife feels that God has brought this "affliction" (as she calls it) into her life to humble her. I am not God, nor do I understand these things. I do know that in my theological understanding, that great people in the Bible had afflictions, Job and Paul are two examples. and there was never a good answer as to why.

Me on the other hand. My friends have stood by me. Some even gave me money during my difficult times. My family supported me. Many in my wife's family supported me until I had the falling out with "the pastor" who lied about me to my wife and her family. I still believe he wanted in my wife's pants, wanted to be the hero, as in his statements to my son, my wife and her family, he said, "I know how to handle Mac". He believe my wife's lies after being told that she would lie by her brother who is also a pastor in this denomination. I told the truth and he said I lied and that my wife was telling the truth. That I was a controlling abusive man. I am still thinking about sueing him over the breach of confidentiallity. My BILs believe in "patoral authority", meaning that you must be under the rule and direction of a pastor or you are outside the protection of God. I understand this theology but I categorically reject it. I do not need any intermediary between me and God. The abuses in the church and in religion in general is because there are people who feel they have a special annoitning from god. I just heard a person who had retired as the president of Compassion International on the radio who was abused as a child in a school he attened while his parents served a missionaries. They told the children never to tell their parents. When he did at the age of ten, his mother had a nervous breakdown when she heard the horrible story, that the very people she trusted to care for her precious child abused him in very horrible ways. Some will say that this is the reason they are not involved in any religious organizations. Well, this is part of the human condition (IMO). Stalin, Hitler, Mao had a worst track record and were secularists. 

I am doing well today and appreciate all your thoughts.


----------



## turnera

Please keep talking to your wife, so you can improve the bond. And it wouldn't hurt to have a therapist to talk to...


----------



## bandit.45

I know I said I wasn't coming back on here, but I wonder if your wife's illness is a psychosomatic manifestation of her guilt?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tdwal

bandit.45 said:


> I know I said I wasn't coming back on here, but I wonder if your wife's illness is a psychosomatic manifestation of her guilt?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bingo I wondered the same thing.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



bandit.45 said:


> I know I said I wasn't coming back on here, but I wonder if your wife's illness is a psychosomatic manifestation of her guilt?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Even if it's a "real" illness stress still might be at the root of it.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> I know I said I wasn't coming back on here, but I wonder if your wife's illness is a psychosomatic manifestation of her guilt?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hello Bandit. It could be. She calls it her "affliction" and that it keeps her close to God.

Stress can cause alot of this as well as guilt. Her symtoms are very common and the onset of these things do happen commonly in woman between the ages of 40 and 60. But I have seen folks that have health problems after A's that are result of psychological issues as well. I think that my wife looks at this as punishment from God. The bible does say that He (God0 will handle the aulterer. So I really don't know.

It could be part of her aging, guilt, stress, psychological, or organic. We show see.

All I can say is that it suc*s but my wife has seem to have come to her senses. She came clean in early May and got hit with this around early July.


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## turnera

Our best friends, the husband was affected by the chemicals over in the Gulf War, has been losing his faculties for a good 15 years; was retired from the government, couldn't work. The wife, who had been stuck working (a high-level job), suddenly came down with very weird neurological issues that couldn't be explained. Went all over the country trying to cure them, had to be retired from the government also. We've long wondered if she didn't bring this on herself because she didn't want to be stuck taking care of him. Now, he has stepped up despite his disability, and has raised their kids basically on his own. She lies in bed most of the time, can't even drive across town. Unless it's to take her daughter to cheer competitions, lol; then, she's suddenly healthy enough to take long trips.


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## SoulStorm

Hi Thorburn,

I spent 3 days reading through the journey of this thread. It was intriguing to see your strength and weaknesses as your wife transformed from a heartless lying adulteress to a caring, repentant and remorseful wife and mother. It is almost unbelievable how different a person she is now. It's like watching the caterpillar become the butterfly. I truly hope she stays on this path and keeps contributing to your healing.

I saw how many criticized your method, but it was your love for her that won her over in the end.

When you finally said that you were done and she saw and knew you meant it, that is when she gave up her facade.

I saw it happening when she stated " I have done some very bad things"

She knew then that her world as she knew it for years was about to change. Her lies were being brought from darkness to light.

All her blame shiftings were making 180's and coming back to the person they really belonged too.

Your wife felt you leaving before you made it known. That is why she started giving you her money. She realized that she had taken money from her family and was spending it foolishly on the XOM. She was trying to make amends by paying it back.

Her anger during that time was not at you..though she directed it toward you...she was really mad at herself.
She knew what she was doing was wrong..she knew it from the start, but she did it all for herself and made you the scapegoat, when all along..you never stopped showing love for her.

There is a point though that a man reaches when he knows his glass is full. You reached that and I must say, you took a lot and withstood a lot and I know that you are virtually done.

Your wife knows it too, but she is determined to help you heal from the damage she caused you. Even if she dies doing it. 
I felt so sorry for you..how she abused you and manipulated you and even emasculated you..yet you never gave up until you felt you did all you could.

No one would blame you for walking away..some would applaud you if you did. I would applaud you regardless. If we needed an example of what a man truly is , flaws and all, your face would be by that word in any dictionary or encyclopedia.

I was so angry at your wife for how cruel a woman she was to you and the boys. How she blamed you for everything and lied so much. Now she tells the truth and even I ask.. "who is this woman now." 

In my heart..I know you're done. Your wife never intended to leave you physically. But what people fail to realize is when they decide to emotionally leave and do things physically to support their emotional stance, they are already gone.

Godspeed to you Thorburn.


----------



## Thorburn

SoulStorm said:


> Hi Thorburn,
> 
> I spent 3 days reading through the journey of this thread. It was intriguing to see your strength and weaknesses as your wife transformed from a heartless lying adulteress to a caring, repentant and remorseful wife and mother. It is almost unbelievable how different a person she is now. It's like watching the caterpillar become the butterfly. I truly hope she stays on this path and keeps contributing to your healing.
> 
> I saw how many criticized your method, but it was your love for her that won her over in the end.
> 
> When you finally said that you were done and she saw and knew you meant it, that is when she gave up her facade.
> 
> I saw it happening when she stated " I have done some very bad things"
> 
> She knew then that her world as she knew it for years was about to change. Her lies were being brought from darkness to light.
> 
> All her blame shiftings were making 180's and coming back to the person they really belonged too.
> 
> Your wife felt you leaving before you made it known. That is why she started giving you her money. She realized that she had taken money from her family and was spending it foolishly on the XOM. She was trying to make amends by paying it back.
> 
> Her anger during that time was not at you..though she directed it toward you...she was really mad at herself.
> She knew what she was doing was wrong..she knew it from the start, but she did it all for herself and made you the scapegoat, when all along..you never stopped showing love for her.
> 
> There is a point though that a man reaches when he knows his glass is full. You reached that and I must say, you took a lot and withstood a lot and I know that you are virtually done.
> 
> Your wife knows it too, but she is determined to help you heal from the damage she caused you. Even if she dies doing it.
> I felt so sorry for you..how she abused you and manipulated you and even emasculated you..yet you never gave up until you felt you did all you could.
> 
> No one would blame you for walking away..some would applaud you if you did. I would applaud you regardless. If we needed an example of what a man truly is , flaws and all, your face would be by that word in any dictionary or encyclopedia.
> 
> I was so angry at your wife for how cruel a woman she was to you and the boys. How she blamed you for everything and lied so much. Now she tells the truth and even I ask.. "who is this woman now."
> 
> In my heart..I know you're done. Your wife never intended to leave you physically. But what people fail to realize is when they decide to emotionally leave and do things physically to support their emotional stance, they are already gone.
> 
> Godspeed to you Thorburn.


Thanks for your kind words.


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## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Our best friends, the husband was affected by the chemicals over in the Gulf War, has been losing his faculties for a good 15 years; was retired from the government, couldn't work. The wife, who had been stuck working (a high-level job), suddenly came down with very weird neurological issues that couldn't be explained. Went all over the country trying to cure them, had to be retired from the government also. We've long wondered if she didn't bring this on herself because she didn't want to be stuck taking care of him. Now, he has stepped up despite his disability, and has raised their kids basically on his own. She lies in bed most of the time, can't even drive across town. Unless it's to take her daughter to cheer competitions, lol; then, she's suddenly healthy enough to take long trips.


My wife's condition has gotten worse. I had to take her to the E.R. on Sunday. I literally had to carry her to the bathroom. She could barely walk. I had the neighbors come over to help me take her to the car. She almost cracked up on the way to the hospital. They gave her some meds, to calm her nausea, her vertigo (which was out of control) and headaches. She felt better and had a decent day yesterday.

Now today it has gotten worse. She has been crying, staying in bed and it is going to be another horrible evening. I feel sorry for her. The buzzing in her left ear has not stopped since July 7th and it is getting worse. The vertigo has gotten worse as of Sunday. I called her today and she keeps telling me it is getting worse and that she had a difficult time getting to the bath room and has been in bed most of the day.

She called off work. 

She can't drive. And this is all new as her condition is getting worse. She is on new meds that helped her Sunday but she said they are not helping today.

She feels like she is about to crack up with the vertigo and ear buzzing. She said no matter what she does everything keeps spinning, whether her eyes are closed or opened. 

I don't know what to do for her. She called her doctors (ENT and Neurologist) and they have not returned her calls. She said if she has to drive somewhere she will not be able to do so.

I will leave work early today. 

I know I should not say this but it would be so much easier dealing with her health issues if she would not have done to me what she did.


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## Squeakr

I wonder if the buzzing is possibly coming from the pressure and guilt she is feeling from the A> I have had the constant buzzing in my ears (tinnitus) since the month after D-Day with my WW. The stress can be a killer.


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## Lovemytruck

Thorburn said:


> I know I should not say this but it would be so much easier dealing with her health issues if she would not have done to me what she did.


Sounds like a normal feeling to have. I delt with my exWW lupus for 18 years prior to her cheating. It made me feel a little more used.

Vertigo sux. Had it once.

Wishing the best for you.

Sounds like you fear that she is playing the victim card for sympathy. Hope that is not the case.


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## bandit.45

Did you get her tested for that disease LostViking was talking about?


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## badmemory

Thorburn,

You might want to have a Neurologist check her out to rule out meningitis or a spinal pressure issue.

And I understand completely how you feel about taking care of her.


----------



## SoulStorm

Thorburn said:


> My wife's condition has gotten worse. I had to take her to the E.R. on Sunday. I literally had to carry her to the bathroom. She could barely walk. I had the neighbors come over to help me take her to the car. She almost cracked up on the way to the hospital. They gave her some meds, to calm her nausea, her vertigo (which was out of control) and headaches. She felt better and had a decent day yesterday.
> 
> Now today it has gotten worse. She has been crying, staying in bed and it is going to be another horrible evening. I feel sorry for her. The buzzing in her left ear has not stopped since July 7th and it is getting worse. The vertigo has gotten worse as of Sunday. I called her today and she keeps telling me it is getting worse and that she had a difficult time getting to the bath room and has been in bed most of the day.
> 
> She called off work.
> 
> She can't drive. And this is all new as her condition is getting worse. She is on new meds that helped her Sunday but she said they are not helping today.
> 
> She feels like she is about to crack up with the vertigo and ear buzzing. She said no matter what she does everything keeps spinning, whether her eyes are closed or opened.
> 
> I don't know what to do for her. She called her doctors (ENT and Neurologist) and they have not returned her calls. She said if she has to drive somewhere she will not be able to do so.
> 
> I will leave work early today.
> 
> I know I should not say this but it would be so much easier dealing with her health issues if she would not have done to me what she did.


She is probably saying that she deserves this for how she treated you. Ironic that it is you who she labeled as a liar and bad mouthed, is taking care of her.

Remember Romans 12:20

_Romans 12:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

_

It may be pain you to do what you are doing for her because of what she did, however because you are showing her kindness, her shame will be even greater.


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## hopefulgirl

I'm so sorry about this recent development. It just makes everything you're both dealing with that much more stressful. R and health issues are tough enough without ER trips and severe disability thrown in.

And of course you have that added feeling of "burden" that wouldn't be there if you weren't still in the early stages of healing from her infidelity. 

I'm hoping we won't feel that little undercurrent of resentment a couple years from now, but I've had to care for my WS during some episodes of his being unwell (nothing to the degree you're experiencing) and I've noted when that undercurrent surfaces. I only ever felt glad to be there for him before; it's not the same now. I love him and do want to be there for him in his time of need, but I don't do it with the same feeling of connection and fulfillment that I always got out of it before.

Tender loving care doesn't come as easy as it used to.

One of my stated goals for MC is to feel closer, so I guess it isn't really a surprise that I don't always feel as eager to jump up and get an ice bag for his throbbing head when I'm still sleepy. 

What I'm trying to say is I get what you're going through. I think it's pretty normal for a BS at this point in the process. I hope her condition can be treated better, and soon - I know this is extremely difficult for both of you.


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Did you get her tested for that disease LostViking was talking about?


Yes. THe ENT ruled it out. The neurologist that my wife had last week said the ENT would be the one to rule it out or diagnose it. Though she has almost every symptom the ENT said that my wife's condition is constant, with Meinieres it is not constant.

There are several conditions that have almost the same symptoms and some are chronic.


----------



## Thorburn

hopefulgirl said:


> I'm so sorry about this recent development. It just makes everything you're both dealing with that much more stressful. R and health issues are tough enough without ER trips and severe disability thrown in.
> 
> And of course you have that added feeling of "burden" that wouldn't be there if you weren't still in the early stages of healing from her infidelity.
> 
> I'm hoping we won't feel that little undercurrent of resentment a couple years from now, but I've had to care for my WS during some episodes of his being unwell (nothing to the degree you're experiencing) and I've noted when that undercurrent surfaces. I only ever felt glad to be there for him before; it's not the same now. I love him and do want to be there for him in his time of need, but I don't do it with the same feeling of connection and fulfillment that I always got out of it before.
> 
> Tender loving care doesn't come as easy as it used to.
> 
> One of my stated goals for MC is to feel closer, so I guess it isn't really a surprise that I don't always feel as eager to jump up and get an ice bag for his throbbing head when I'm still sleepy.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is I get what you're going through. I think it's pretty normal for a BS at this point in the process. I hope her condition can be treated better, and soon - I know this is extremely difficult for both of you.


I also had to go to the E.R., once in 2010 for Rocky Mountain Spotted fever and the second time around January 2013. The time in 2010 the night I came home on my b-day, we had plans to go out and I was sick (did not know what I had), so we cancelled the plans. My wife started her EA that night at 11 P.M. while I was in bed sick. THe next morning when I went to the hospital, all my wife cared about was how I was going to get her car home and when I did get home she did not care for me, like she did in the past. I was on my own.

Then in January, I woke my wife up and said I need you to take me to the E.R., I was in extreme pain, thought I was having a heart attack and she refused, I went on my own, drove myself and almost passed out on the way there. We had an argument when I got home.

I have taken my wife to the E.R. soon after d-day in late February. I left work to take her and she could have cared less about me during this time.

Those events factor in on my feelings. I was always there for my wife, and she wasn't, even after she cheated on me and I was in the process of D, I was there for her when she needed me to take her to the hospital.


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## bandit.45

Grrrrrrrrrrrr..... Xx
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1

Thorburn said:


> I also had to go to the E.R., once in 2010 for Rocky Mountain Spotted fever and the second time around January 2013. The time in 2010 the night I came home on my b-day, we had plans to go out and I was sick (did not know what I had), so we cancelled the plans. My wife started her EA that night at 11 P.M. while I was in bed sick. THe next morning when I went to the hospital, all my wife cared about was how I was going to get her car home and when I did get home she did not care for me, like she did in the past. I was on my own.
> *
> Then in January, I woke my wife up and said I need you to take me to the E.R., I was in extreme pain, thought I was having a heart attack and she refused, I went on my own, drove myself and almost passed out on the way there. We had an argument when I got home.*
> *
> I have taken my wife to the E.R. soon after d-day in late February. I left work to take her and she could have cared less about me during this time.*
> 
> *Those events factor in on my feelings. I was always there for my wife, and she wasn't, even after she cheated on me and I was in the process of D, I was there for her when she needed me to take her to the hospital.*


You are a good man...that is all I can say...whatever happens I hope you find peace and happiness you so richly deserve it...


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## moto164

Read the whole thread, It sounds like because of the medical issues she wanted to R so you would take care of her.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Thorburn said:


> I also had to go to the E.R., once in 2010 for Rocky Mountain Spotted fever and the second time around January 2013. The time in 2010 the night I came home on my b-day, we had plans to go out and I was sick (did not know what I had), so we cancelled the plans. My wife started her EA that night at 11 P.M. while I was in bed sick. THe next morning when I went to the hospital, all my wife cared about was how I was going to get her car home and when I did get home she did not care for me, like she did in the past. I was on my own.
> 
> Then in January, I woke my wife up and said I need you to take me to the E.R., I was in extreme pain, thought I was having a heart attack and she refused, I went on my own, drove myself and almost passed out on the way there. We had an argument when I got home.
> 
> I have taken my wife to the E.R. soon after d-day in late February. I left work to take her and she could have cared less about me during this time.
> 
> Those events factor in on my feelings. I was always there for my wife, and she wasn't, even after she cheated on me and I was in the process of D, I was there for her when she needed me to take her to the hospital.


Ouch. Really has to hurt.

I hate to say it, but I have some similar experience. Again, nothing NEAR as horrible as your experiences. But my WS had a few "catastrophic" reactions in the early months after D-Day. He would go cold, even cruel - some of the things he said, and the way he would go somewhere and not tell me where he was going, when I had TOLD him how that would make me trigger - there were times when I thought D was probable. I wondered, who IS this monster? Can't be the man I married!

I know now that the fog doesn't lift right after D-Day. Even if the affair is over. He was, as he puts it, "not in my right mind" and "lost" and that doesn't just clear right up in a couple days! (He was never in love with the OW, so that wasn't an issue - but for months he had been disloyal; even if the PA was short, the EA started a few months prior.) There were moments after D-Day where he was capable of cutting me off like I was nothing to him, and I was stunned. As if we had no history, no love had ever been there - he had ice in his veins as far as I was concerned. It was truly frightening.

He's different now - he's ashamed, and apologizing frequently, we're in MC and while things are going slowly, we're definitely making progress. But it has left scars. How could it not? 

Here we are, steadfast, after being betrayed and then being treated like crap on top of it. R is rough without this added pain - a lot of people would certainly have bailed. But nobody is in our shoes, nobody can know all we know about our spouses and our situations, or about who WE are as people and what we value and what we believe and what we stand for. 

I do understand what you're doing and why; and I sincerely hope that your wife's condition improves.


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## Thorburn

moto164 said:


> Read the whole thread, It sounds like because of the medical issues she wanted to R so you would take care of her.


Her medical condition started on July 6th, about two months after her confession and repentance.

If this had started prior to her coming clean I would have to agree with you 100%.

I did have a thought last night. I went out on the front stoop and sat for a while thinking. If I had D my wife and if the XOM had left his wife, this is what he would be dealing with. A woman who is becoming a chronically ill person. He would not have stayed with her long.


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## bandit.45

I guess what sucks is the sexual aspect: she was giving him great sex, preparing for it, and all that. Now you have to wait for those rare opportunities when she is not feeling ill and has some drive just to have sex with her. 

Then you get the joy of hearing friom her how well endowed he was, amplified by her obvious enjoyment of it on the recordings. 

T, how the hell you don't suffer from the worst ED in human history is a mystery to me. I seriously don't think I could mentally or physically get over that level of betrayal. 

How the hell you have abstained from hauling off and knocking her through a wall is also amazing to me. If there was ever a woman who deserved a beating (and none do by the way) it is your fWW.


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> I guess what sucks is the sexual aspect: she was giving him great sex, preparing for it, and all that. Now you have to wait for those rare opportunities when she is not feeling ill and has some drive just to have sex with her.
> 
> Then you get the joy of hearing friom her how well endowed he was, amplified by her obvious enjoyment of it on the recordings.
> 
> T, how the hell you don't suffer from the worst ED in human history is a mystery to me. I seriously don't think I could mentally or physically get over that level of betrayal.
> 
> How the hell you have abstained from hauling off and knocking her through a wall is also amazing to me. If there was ever a woman who deserved a beating (and none do by the way) it is your fWW.


Lol bandit. First, I am not a violent person. The Army taught me how to kill with my hands. I literally could kill someone, have them knocked out in about 2 seconds and dead in a matter of time. I know how to kill. I served in combat and would not hesitate. Wouldn't even think about it. But I also have the discipline and state of mind to turn that off. I have guns. My wife could not defend herself. Never thought about going there. I removed the guns from the house for a while due to the fact that my wife was thinking of killing herself and my special needs son threatened to kill me with the guns. He told me he could not figure out how to load them. He told my wife this and she did nothing about it. Did not tell me nor got rid of the guns. When my son told me what he was going to do and that he told his mother, I got mad at her. It was during the time she thought I was going to leave her and she just did not care. I said if our son came to me threatening her, I would have informed her and got rid of the guns. Just shows what her thinking was at the time. My guns are easy to load and to this day I can't figure out why my son, even after watching a Youtube on how to load these pistols, never figured it out. 

In some cultures today and in the past a woman would have been stoned to death for this. 

That day in January 2012 when I was drunk and broke into the meat plant where the XOM worked, no one was in the plant. Everyone was offsite at a holiday party. That day would have not gone well for me nor the XOM. I doubt that he would be walking this green earth. Ironically, last week I asked my wife about that day and she said she never told him. She said she feared he would have used that to get me locked up and she did not want that. I called a friend of mine who is a Vietnam Veteran who I worked with and he is a RN and a MSW. He talked me home.

The ED has been somewhat an issue and other times not. It is certainly mental. I won't go into it all but there were times where my wife was calling me superman because it was sex every day for weeks and sometimes twice a day. 

Now the main issue that I believe you bring up. The overall sex. Yes it has basically stopped. She is not faking her illness. Last night she was in bed, asleep before me. We normally go to bed together. I can say all I want about this but the bottom line is she is ill. And to tell you the truth, there is not a day, not one, where what you are saying does not go through my head. She did all this for the XOM, I heard her moans, and now I get hardly anything. I sat on the front stoop yesterday morning and this morning thinking about this. I have sat on the back stoop over the past weeks thinking about this. I sat in the hospital on Sunday thinking about this.

So now I finished my pity party and here is the reality.

1. My wife did not plan on getting sick.
2. Her illness is real.
3. Had she not had the A and had it not been so recent what would be my responce? I would take care of her. I would deal with the fact that sex would diminish or end, added income from her working will stop, her running errands would be limited, etc. Two of my friends lost their wives to cancer recently, one of them is the guy I mentioned above who talked me home when I was going to really hurt the XOM when I broke into the meat plant. 

And truthfully, I have thought about packing up and leaving just due to the stress of it all. Last night my wife was watering the plants outside. My son asked me to take him to church and I thought she heard my son ask me. I went inside to get the truck and car keys. My wife asked me where I was going. I said I am going out. I had forgotten that these were the very words my wife used when she was cheating on me and we had several arguements about this where I fhrew it up in her face, "Oh, you are going out". My wife got a very concerned look on her face and said why are you leaving me? I started laughing and said, I am taking our son to church, I thought you heard him ask me. She said, "Don't scare me like that." It did not dawn on me till I was driving how the scenerio might had looked in her eyes. I do think she feels I might just up and leave.

I suspect with our recent history of where she did not give a dam* about me since early 2010 that she feels I might come to have those same feelings. I am not sure. Last night she got into the bathtub and laid there crying. I went in and washed her. She said all I can do right now is think about myself. She said her eyes are constantly seeing things moving that she can't stop things from moving. 

I get it when people become chronically ill. I worked in that field for years as a chaplain. I have seen caregivers burn out, give up their entire life for the ill person. I am hoping that my wife can be helped or even cured (She may have lyme disease, maybe, maybe not). But if it is chronic and permanent I honestly don't look forward to dealing with it. I will deal with it, but this new state of events in her health will affect going on vacations, having normal conversations etc. Frankly my biggest concern is even with good medical insurance the loss of income and the co-pays are going to kill us.


----------



## Silvr Surfer

good for you. I'm seriously impressed.


----------



## moto164

OP you put up with so much. I hope your wifes illness is diagnosed and treated and you can start enjoying your life.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Thorburn said:


> Lol bandit. First, I am not a violent person. The Army taught me how to kill with my hands. I literally could kill someone, have them knocked out in about 2 seconds and dead in a matter of time. I know how to kill. I served in combat and would not hesitate. Wouldn't even think about it. But I also have the discipline and state of mind to turn that off. I have guns. My wife could not defend herself. Never thought about going there. I removed the guns from the house for a while due to the fact that my wife was thinking of killing herself and my special needs son threatened to kill me with the guns. He told me he could not figure out how to load them. He told my wife this and she did nothing about it. Did not tell me nor got rid of the guns. When my son told me what he was going to do and that he told his mother, I got mad at her. It was during the time she thought I was going to leave her and she just did not care. I said if our son came to me threatening her, I would have informed her and got rid of the guns. Just shows what her thinking was at the time. My guns are easy to load and to this day I can't figure out why my son, even after watching a Youtube on how to load these pistols, never figured it out.
> 
> In some cultures today and in the past a woman would have been stoned to death for this.
> 
> That day in January 2012 when I was drunk and broke into the meat plant where the XOM worked, no one was in the plant. Everyone was offsite at a holiday party. That day would have not gone well for me nor the XOM. I doubt that he would be walking this green earth. Ironically, last week I asked my wife about that day and she said she never told him. She said she feared he would have used that to get me locked up and she did not want that. I called a friend of mine who is a Vietnam Veteran who I worked with and he is a RN and a MSW. He talked me home.
> 
> The ED has been somewhat an issue and other times not. It is certainly mental. I won't go into it all but there were times where my wife was calling me superman because it was sex every day for weeks and sometimes twice a day.
> 
> Now the main issue that I believe you bring up. The overall sex. Yes it has basically stopped. She is not faking her illness. Last night she was in bed, asleep before me. We normally go to bed together. I can say all I want about this but the bottom line is she is ill. And to tell you the truth, there is not a day, not one, where what you are saying does not go through my head. She did all this for the XOM, I heard her moans, and now I get hardly anything. I sat on the front stoop yesterday morning and this morning thinking about this. I have sat on the back stoop over the past weeks thinking about this. I sat in the hospital on Sunday thinking about this.
> 
> So now I finished my pity party and here is the reality.
> 
> 1. My wife did not plan on getting sick.
> 2. Her illness is real.
> 3. Had she not had the A and had it not been so recent what would be my responce? I would take care of her. I would deal with the fact that sex would diminish or end, added income from her working will stop, her running errands would be limited, etc. Two of my friends lost their wives to cancer recently, one of them is the guy I mentioned above who talked me home when I was going to really hurt the XOM when I broke into the meat plant.
> 
> And truthfully, I have thought about packing up and leaving just due to the stress of it all. Last night my wife was watering the plants outside. My son asked me to take him to church and I thought she heard my son ask me. I went inside to get the truck and car keys. My wife asked me where I was going. I said I am going out. I had forgotten that these were the very words my wife used when she was cheating on me and we had several arguements about this where I fhrew it up in her face, "Oh, you are going out". My wife got a very concerned look on her face and said why are you leaving me? I started laughing and said, I am taking our son to church, I thought you heard him ask me. She said, "Don't scare me like that." It did not dawn on me till I was driving how the scenerio might had looked in her eyes. I do think she feels I might just up and leave.
> 
> I suspect with our recent history of where she did not give a dam* about me since early 2010 that she feels I might come to have those same feelings. I am not sure. Last night she got into the bathtub and laid there crying. I went in and washed her. She said all I can do right now is think about myself. She said her eyes are constantly seeing things moving that she can't stop things from moving.
> 
> I get it when people become chronically ill. I worked in that field for years as a chaplain. I have seen caregivers burn out, give up their entire life for the ill person. I am hoping that my wife can be helped or even cured (She may have lyme disease, maybe, maybe not). But if it is chronic and permanent I honestly don't look forward to dealing with it. I will deal with it, but this new state of events in her health will affect going on vacations, having normal conversations etc. Frankly my biggest concern is even with good medical insurance the loss of income and the co-pays are going to kill us.


Thornburn - you are a man who has shown INCREDIBLE mercy when none was earned. You have shown compassion when none was deserved. And you have continued to love when none was returned. I really don't know how or why your are capable of this but it is certainly rare and impressive. I just want you to receive the rewards you so richly deserve. Your wife should be on her knees all day everyday thanking God for a husband like you because she certainly doesn't deserve one.


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## moto164

He's put up with way more than any man should have to.


----------



## LostViking

Truthseeker1 said:


> Thornburn - you are a man who has shown INCREDIBLE mercy when none was earned. You have shown compassion when none was deserved. And you have continued to love when none was returned. I really don't know how or why your are capable of this but it is certainly rare and impressive. I just want you to receive the rewards you so richly deserve. Your wife should be on her knees all day everyday thanking God for a husband like you because she certainly doesn't deserve one.


Amen and amen.....


----------



## awake1

You're a tough guy. 

I would just say that she lost the honor of your loyalty when she cheated. 

You are free to come and go as you wish. 


You don't owe it to her. That line of thinking "well if she never cheated i'd take care of her". That's all fine. But it's a what if. 

Because she did cheat. The vow broke.

But I hope she has a fast recovery, and I hope you do too.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Saw that you posted on someone else's thread that you'd been to the ER last week. Are you OK??


----------



## Thorburn

hopefulgirl said:


> Saw that you posted on someone else's thread that you'd been to the ER last week. Are you OK??


Yea, just severe anxiety. My PTSD from Iraq has been kicking in, I had two episodes that set me back over the past two weeks, that basically caused flashbacks. I could not kick it. tried everything. Sat in the E.R. for hours feeling like I was going to jump out of my skin. 

My wife had taken my son to our other home and when I told her I was heading to the E.R., she wanted to turn around and be with me. I told her I would be OK and not to ruin it for our son. My cell phone did not get a signal in the hospital and my wife was nearly in panic because she could not reach me. By the time I was released my wife was home. 

It is just a gift from serving in combat that keeps on giving.

Things with my wife are going well. She was and is concerned about my condition. In the past she never talked about it, I don't think she cared. Now she does and it shows.


----------



## Acabado

Thorburn said:


> Things with my wife are going well. She was and is concerned about my condition. In the past she never talked about it, I don't think she cared. Now she does and it shows.


If genuine it's really great news. Great.News.
A complete shift.


----------



## hopefulgirl

I'm SO sorry to hear about your episodes. I feel that after being traumatized on D-Day, I began to get a glimpse into the world of veterans who have PTSD. Only a glimpse, because nobody died, no blood was spilled - I know it's only an approximation, but I've been hypervigilant and have this sense that I'm just not as "safe" and "protected" as I used to be. It's nothing compared to combat trauma, but with the ongoing nature of the aftereffects of the trauma of infidelity, I do feel I have a little better understanding of what PTSD may be like. 

The silver lining in this bad spell is that your wife's fog seems to have truly lifted; she has empathy and concern, and I'm sure that means the world to you. One of things that PTSD does is cut people off because you feel so isolated in those awful thoughts and memories that you try to avoid - the caring connection one has with a wife who goes into a near panic when she cannot reach you has to be a one of the most healing things there is. 

"Love cures people - both the ones who give it and the ones who receive it." - Karl Menninger


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## Thorburn

hopefulgirl said:


> I'm SO sorry to hear about your episodes. I feel that after being traumatized on D-Day, I began to get a glimpse into the world of veterans who have PTSD. Only a glimpse, because nobody died, no blood was spilled - I know it's only an approximation, but I've been hypervigilant and have this sense that I'm just not as "safe" and "protected" as I used to be. It's nothing compared to combat trauma, but with the ongoing nature of the aftereffects of the trauma of infidelity, I do feel I have a little better understanding of what PTSD may be like.
> 
> The silver lining in this bad spell is that your wife's fog seems to have truly lifted; she has empathy and concern, and I'm sure that means the world to you. One of things that PTSD does is cut people off because you feel so isolated in those awful thoughts and memories that you try to avoid - the caring connection one has with a wife who goes into a near panic when she cannot reach you has to be a one of the most healing things there is.
> 
> "Love cures people - both the ones who give it and the ones who receive it." - Karl Menninger


About two months after I came back from Iraq I went into a slight depression for about two months. I took my wife on two trips, one to VA and one to Hilton Head Island in those months and we had fun. Even when I went into a funk I still did things with my wife. "My depression" was one of many excuses she brought up for her sexual EA in April 2010. I remember confronting her about this, I said what about March and April when i was no longer in a funk? You started the EA in late April when things were going great.

Looking back, my wife did not care. I was going in for treatment, diagnosed with PTSD and she did not want to talk about it. I heard her make fun of me, behind my back.

Now that has all changed. When I had an episode a few weeks ago, an acorn fell on the roof of my truck and it sent me into a near panic. I did not share this with my wife. When I came home that evening my wife asked me what was wrong and I said, nothing is wrong, I am not feeling well. A few days later when I told her, she got a little mad with me and told me to share these things with her. She said, "I may not understand what you feel but it will help me understand your mood when you experience these things". She is correct. So now I try to share these events. Two Fridays ago my boss yelled when he dropped food, beside me. It set me off big time. My wife talked to me all the way home. She knew I was upset about this. 

In my counseling practise i deal with this. i hear it quite often from other Vets. I use the coping skills I teach, but sometimes the triggers are too much. 

My wife has given me empathy in regards to my PTSD. Actually for the first time since I came back from Iraq years ago. 

One of our arguments in 2010 was when her online lover's father died she sent him videos of comfort, etc from Youtube. And they only knew each other a few days. I told my wife, WTH, you know a guy a few days, his freaken father dies, and you are all over it. And here I am, dealing with PTSD, and I am sick with Rocky Mountain Fever and you don't give a rat's arse about me. She also gave more focus on her family then me. If her brother needed something she would drop everything to be with him. When his 3 year old daughter died she spent quite a bit of time with her brother.

This may seem harsh, but I will not tolerate her putting her family above me. She did this almost our entire marriage and I told her, not to do it again.


----------



## Want2babettrme

Thorburn,

My cousin had spells of horrible vertigo last summer. After seeing several docs she was referred to someone at a university hospital. This Dr. told her that there are some crystals in the inner ear that apparently provide a positional reference point for the brain and body. The Dr. had her do some exercises in which she moved her head around so the crystals would return to their correct location in the inner ear. Sounds bizarre but it worked for her.

I've heard about this on television also. (Discovery channel?)

Sorry to be so vague. Maybe something you could ask your wife's physicians about.

I have been inspired by your strength and integrity in overwhelming adversity.


----------



## Thorburn

Want2babettrme said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> My cousin had spells of horrible vertigo last summer. After seeing several docs she was referred to someone at a university hospital. This Dr. told her that there are some crystals in the inner ear that apparently provide a positional reference point for the brain and body. The Dr. had her do some exercises in which she moved her head around so the crystals would return to their correct location in the inner ear. Sounds bizarre but it worked for her.
> 
> I've heard about this on television also. (Discovery channel?)
> 
> Sorry to be so vague. Maybe something you could ask your wife's physicians about.
> 
> I have been inspired by your strength and integrity in overwhelming adversity.


My wife told me about these exercises but she has yet to try them. I don't know why she is so reluctant. She is suppose to be going in for therapy but so far has not scheduled them. Her Neurologist got on her about avoiding therapy and she said she will go, but has not scheduled her appointments. She has her chemo therapy this Friday and I am taking her to that, but I don't get her reluctance to schedule therapy or do these exercises that she found online. They are like the ones you describe. 

I will ask her when I get home this evening if she wants to try these exercises.

Thanks


----------



## turnera

Thorburn said:


> She is supposed to be going in for therapy but so far has not scheduled them. Her Neurologist got on her about avoiding therapy and she said she will go, but has not scheduled her appointments.


WTH?

Thorburn, your story gets more and more improbable. She seems remarkably good at saying everything she's supposed to, and DOING nothing you need.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> WTH?
> 
> Thorburn, your story gets more and more improbable. She seems remarkably good at saying everything she's supposed to, and DOING nothing you need.


I would agree if you said this months or a year or more ago. She has always been wishy washy on her medical care. Sometimes very aggressive in seeking treatment and other times very passive. But I can be the same way now. There have been several things medically that I have put off. I was supposed to have surgery last year, I blew off appointments, etc. I can really say that this is due to my level of concentration being blown apart due to my wife's A's.

Her medical issues are frustrating her and I see that she does not see therapy as an answer, for her it is more of a inconvience. She is hoping that someone can get to the bottom of her medical issue. They may. But most of what I am reading there is some hope if it is an inner ear issue that can be corrected with surgery, but for the most part, if it is VM or any of the other things I have seen online that have similar symtoms, then therapy and some limited medical treatment is the only option. 

I would also agree with your statement if my wife had not become ill in early July and had been acting like this.

The reality is that even with her illness she went to work yesterday. She felt very sick. She had a horrible day. I won't get into all that happened to her, she got a ticket and had a difficult policeman, had a German band at her work place and they played "Sound of Music" songs, her mother was German and she died a few years ago and my wife can't listen to "Sound of Music" songs, as it reminds her of her parents and grandparents who use to sing and play these songs. Then when I got home I had an issue with her FB account. I accused her of something she did not do, and as I was looking at her account I found out it was me that assessed it and not her. She was sitting beside me and she left me have it last night. She was in a rotten mood. I listened and then she wanted me to speak. I knew better. Dam*ned if I do and dam*ed if I don't. I got a little miffed and spoke my mind. She was crying and I told her that she can have a bad day. She said, I really am happy to be with you and that you took me back after all I did. 

Even during this time my wife asked me to continue with getting my liscense and said that is why she is working so hard. So I can concentrate on my studies. 

I quess what I am trying to say is I don't see the pattern of the last 4 years of her saying things that she does not mean. The medical stuff aside, I just don't see it. I feel that she is fully connected to me like never before. Even yestereday when I called her and she did not answer, she called me back and said, "I was outside with the dogs when you called". She willingly assures me that she is not doing anything wrong. I don't know if this is making sense but she does this frequently. I call her and if she is not available, she will call me later and explain what she was doing. All I can say is that I never asked her to do that and it is reassuring. even my son is in the habit if I call and his mother (my wife) does not answer, he will tell me what his mother is doing or where she is at.


----------



## turnera

Then why can you not just ask her to do this (therapy)? Lots of people don't enjoy therapy, it's hard! You feel bad! But it's necessary if you want to figure things out and find out how to avoid this in the future when things get back to normal.


----------



## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Then why can you not just ask her to do this (therapy)? Lots of people don't enjoy therapy, it's hard! You feel bad! But it's necessary if you want to figure things out and find out how to avoid this in the future when things get back to normal.


I did. I talked to her last night and a few minutes ago. Here is her responce. They have not returned her phone calls. They asked her a bunch of questions when she first contacted them and they said they need to get permission from our insurance. My wife told them that our insurance will cover this and that we don't need a referral nor permission. She explained that when she had her MRI she did not need permission for this test. Our insurance is a PPO and as long as the provider is in the network we don't need permission. My wife can go to any specialist without having to go through her primary like a HMO. The therapy provider that the docotr referred her to shows good reviews online, but they are not quick to return calls. My wife is thinking of going to another center and will give it a few more days.


----------



## Want2babettrme

Want2babettrme said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> My cousin had spells of horrible vertigo last summer. After seeing several docs she was referred to someone at a university hospital. This Dr. told her that there are some crystals in the inner ear that apparently provide a positional reference point for the brain and body. The Dr. had her do some exercises in which she moved her head around so the crystals would return to their correct location in the inner ear. Sounds bizarre but it worked for her.
> 
> I've heard about this on television also. (Discovery channel?)
> 
> Sorry to be so vague. Maybe something you could ask your wife's physicians about.
> 
> I have been inspired by your strength and integrity in overwhelming adversity.



Found a link to an article about the condition from NPR. 



Inner Ear 'Rock Slides' Lead To Vertigo : NPR


Good luck!


----------



## diwali123

You can also get antivert OTC. One of my coworkers has vertigo and that's what her dr gave her.


----------



## Thorburn

Want to give an update.

My wife got Shingles two weeks ago. So add to her vertigo, ear ringing, etc, she now has severe pain from the shilgles. She complained of a side pain and a rash and I said, "You have shingles", I took her to an urgent care center and they confirmed it. She has had some very bad days with it. Last night she did not sleep at all. And yes she is on all the meds for it. 

She fired her neurologist. She saw her ENT doctor yesterday and now he is saying meniere's disease, and will start more tests. She has had on top of the shingles severe sickness with the vertigo. There are days she walks around the house like a drunken sailor and I have to steady her.

We don't do much together as she is very ill and in pain.

About three weeks ago my wife had an appointment with her one doctor back at our other home. She had to drive by the XOM's house. I placed a VAR in her car. There was one stop she made that did not make sense and she was gone a while. The VAR picked something up and I was able to identify it as a store that we use to go shopping at and my wife told me later that she had stopped there. My wife wanted to go to her "toxic" sisters and asked me about it. I said go, but don't ever expect me to do anything with your sister, ever and don't involve me with her. My wife said she would not go. I thought she might. Well the VAR picked up everything very clearly. And there was nothing at all that she did wrong. Spent time with my youngest son, talked to me on the phone and that was it. She listened to shows on the radio that she had not listened to in years and played a Christian CD. So it validated that she is on the right path.

I miss the sex. My wife has been sick since around July 6th and our sex life has vitually died. I am ok with this for now as I know she is sick. It stinks but I am OK with it.

My wife keeps telling me that she loves me and prays for me quite a bit. She has told me many times to stop worrying about her cheating. She told me the other night that when she got caught in February, it was as if God told her to get on this train or else. That this was the last train out and if you don't get on it, you are doomed. She said she got on that train. Ironically at that moment she was telling me this, the local train came by and blew it's whistle. I am not making this up. My wife started laughing and said see, God is sending you a little sign. 

So, right now I am taking care of my wife the best I can. She is not working. More then likely has meniere's disease as was suggested on an earlier post, (thanks L). 

My wife even in her illness is busting her butt to make things right with me.

I am not sure. I know my wife feels it. She has been mentioning to me to talk to her more about it and I told her I just don't thhink it is fair to bring it up at this time. She told me to talk to her and that fairness has nothing to do with it. I told her I just don't know, that I feel that things are OK, but her being sick is just compounding everything, and that I am being hit with the entire A all over again. My wife says she loves me and will do whatever it takes to make things right.

I really don't expect an answer just blowing off steam, but why did I do all that I did to get a sick wife? I have felt at times of packing her stuff, putting her in my truck and dropping her off at the XOM's house and say, you take care of her. 

I know that the lack of sex is making me feel distance and right now I have to deal with that. Honestly, sex is not everything, but still.


----------



## alte Dame

You are a kind, patient, forgiving man, Thorburn. I get the feeling that some mould was broken somewhere the day you were born.

The illness sux, I know, and after all you've been through. You're only human for feeling the way you do about it. (The shingles will pass; the other seems much harder.) I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that she gets well and starts giving you the best sex of your life. If anyone deserves it, there's no doubt that it's you.


----------



## Thorburn

alte Dame said:


> You are a kind, patient, forgiving man, Thorburn. I get the feeling that some mould was broken somewhere the day you were born.
> 
> The illness sux, I know, and after all you've been through. You're only human for feeling the way you do about it. (The shingles will pass; the other seems much harder.) I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that she gets well and starts giving you the best sex of your life. If anyone deserves it, there's no doubt that it's you.


Thanks.


----------



## Affaircare

Thorburn, 

As you know, my Dear Hubby is ill as well--heart failure. There are days he can not walk from one room to the other in the house, so some days sex just can not happen. 

However, one thing we've tried is that instead of saying "That means no sex" we've adapted our definition of sex to include some methods that are not as physically exerting, and to include a lot of kissing (making out like teenagers, in other words), lots of touching, and maybe doing a little but EXTREMELY SLOWLY so the anticipation and pleasure are enjoyed in the moment no matter how long or short that moment may be. 

Another thing we are doing is connecting on the other levels intimately: emotionally, mentally, spiritually and just having fun. I won't kid you--I do miss sex. But I know it's not lack of desire but literally a physical limit to what can be done, how, and how fast/how long. I do very much enjoy connecting in all the other ways too! 

So give that a try and see if that doesn't help.


----------



## bfree

Thorburn,

There are some people that you meet in life that really have an impact. Just listening to their story and seeing how they handle themselves you feel a tremendous amount of respect for them. In my case I was very fortunate to have a relationship with some people that impacted my life in a very positive direct way. In reading your threads, listening to your story, and watching how you conduct yourself I must say that you are one of those people. On more than one occasion when something has been troubling me or when an event in my life threatens to grow into an unweilding mess I have said to myself "compared to what Thorburn has dealt with this is nothing more than a blip on the radar." You have been through an unbelievable amount of pain and discord and have handled your business with grace and class. Whether you want to ackowledge it or not you are an inspiration and demonstrate every day how love and compassion can overcome mountains.


----------



## Thorburn

Affaircare said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> As you know, my Dear Hubby is ill as well--heart failure. There are days he can not walk from one room to the other in the house, so some days sex just can not happen.
> 
> However, one thing we've tried is that instead of saying "That means no sex" we've adapted our definition of sex to include some methods that are not as physically exerting, and to include a lot of kissing (making out like teenagers, in other words), lots of touching, and maybe doing a little but EXTREMELY SLOWLY so the anticipation and pleasure are enjoyed in the moment no matter how long or short that moment may be.
> 
> Another thing we are doing is connecting on the other levels intimately: emotionally, mentally, spiritually and just having fun. I won't kid you--I do miss sex. But I know it's not lack of desire but literally a physical limit to what can be done, how, and how fast/how long. I do very much enjoy connecting in all the other ways too!
> 
> So give that a try and see if that doesn't help.


Sometimes just laying in bed holding hands at night is rough. She has been sleeping a lot. I call her on the way home from work and during the day. We read the scriptures together every day, pray for each other. She cries a lot right now and has her pity parties and tells me she is tired of being miserable and that she should be doing more for me. I say the shigles will pass and we will figure out the rest. 

So yes, sex is on hold and there are other ways to connect. I might buy one of those blow up dolls. JK


----------



## Thorburn

bfree said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> There are some people that you meet in life that really have an impact. Just listening to their story and seeing how they handle themselves you feel a tremendous amount of respect for them. In my case I was very fortunate to have a relationship with some people that impacted my life in a very positive direct way. In reading your threads, listening to your story, and watching how you conduct yourself I must say that you are one of those people. On more than one occasion when something has been troubling me or when an event in my life threatens to grow into an unweilding mess I have said to myself "compared to what Thorburn has dealt with this is nothing more than a blip on the radar." You have been through an unbelievable amount of pain and discord and have handled your business with grace and class. Whether you want to ackowledge it or not you are an inspiration and demonstrate every day how love and compassion can overcome mountains.


Your comments actually brought tears to my eyes. Thanks for your kind words.


----------



## LostViking

Coco butter handjob. Try it. 

Anyway, menier's disease has no cure but it is treatable. There are meds that can alleviate a lot if the symptoms. 

I know it sucks not having sex. You're feeling like "OM got the best of her. Me? I got the bony scraps. Thirty years of keeping a roof over her head, feeding and clothing her, through sickness and health, almost getting my azz shot off in war.... This is my reward? Takes that b-tch 30 fvcking years to get her head out of her azz and I get to haul her back and forth to the doctor. Thanks God. "
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LadyDee

Thornburn, I am sorry to hear about your and your wife's problems. I have had continuous ringing in the ear and dizziness for years now and nothing I seem to do takes it away and doctors tell me nothing I can do. I take mecliine (OTC) every evening and that seems to help for dizziness at night, but have found nothing to help the continuous buzzing/ringing. I do know that when I get dehydrated and my potassium gets too low, it makes it worse.

I will be following your topic now in the event they do come up with something new to rid her of these issues.

I do believe there is some new kind of therapy for the shingles too, I have a couple friends who have gotten shingles recently and I remember them talking about a medication that helped, will try to find out exactly what that was too.


----------



## Rugs

Have your wife get tested for Lyme disease. Only use IGENEX labs.


----------



## turnera

Thorburn, it sounds like you guys need some outside support. Friends? Support groups?


----------



## Affaircare

LostViking said:


> Coco butter handjob. Try it.
> 
> Anyway, menier's disease has no cure but it is treatable. There are meds that can alleviate a lot if the symptoms.
> 
> I know it sucks not having sex. You're feeling like "OM got the best of her. Me? I got the bony scraps. Thirty years of keeping a roof over her head, feeding and clothing her, through sickness and health, almost getting my azz shot off in war.... This is my reward? Takes that b-tch 30 fvcking years to get her head out of her azz and I get to haul her back and forth to the doctor. Thanks God. "


I know this sounds awful but I can relate to feeling like this sometimes. I mean, it passes through my mind for a moment, and sometimes I even entertain it and let it roll around for a bit. But it's not too long that I remember that my job here, in this marriage, is to be a mirror of Christ, and He came to SERVE not to be served. I bring great glory to Christ by serving my husband and caring for him in a loving and gentle way that nourishes HIM...body and soul. 

So I'm human. I think it and sometimes even hold on to it for a bit. And then I remember a) what God did for me when I committed adultery with other gods, and b) what Dear Hubby did for me when I committed adultery giving what was his to other men. I'm not saying I'm Pollyanna--but I am saying that I am cognizant of why I'm here and what it all means, and I'm here to tell ya, it is NOT about me and "getting my needs met." Once my mind goes there (instead of "how unfair it is") I actually do a lot better.


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## tdwal

Thornburn you have taken a path that most of us would not have been able to travel. You have suffered but yet remained strong in your faith. We are not put on this earth for everything to be wonderful and happy, we have the mission to spread the word to as many people as possible. We are to follow God’s will and in so many cases that means that good people suffer. In fact the closer I have gotten to God the more difficult the trials become and I think you have experienced that as well. You are one of the good people that is suffering the most, but take heart that God does have a plan, there is a reason for all of this. Remain stedfast, you are an inspiration to a lot of us.


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## sammy3

Wow, I just read this whole thread, as I am trying to R after over 2 years of living apart w no support, no guidance, no direction, looking for support. 

TB, yeap, It's amazing the road taken when trying to R and keep it together... Life is for sissy... 

~sammy


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## sammy3

Double post


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## Thorburn

Update:

1. Wife's condition has gotten worse. She quit her job the other day and was crying about it this morning.
2. Meniere's syndrome has been ruled out.
3. My wife fired her neurologist two weeks ago. He was an arse and it is a long story. She will be seeing another group in February.
4. Have taken her to the E.R. several times since last post and it was all worthless. They all said she needs to see a neurologist.
5. All the tests she has had points to a Central brain or Central Nervous system disorder, not an ear issue as we had thought.
6. She can spend more then 17 hours in bed with severe virtigo. 
7. She fears she might be dying.

Me: I am trying to stay above this. I keep my mouth shut as far as the A goes. I have had some terrible triggers and keep them to myself. She has made contact with her family and whenever she talks about them I just move onto another subject. My oldest son said we are invited to my wife's brother's house for new years and I said you can go with you mother. I am not ready to deal with her family in any shape, form or manner. My wife does not push it. She can barely drive. 

All I can say is my wife's health is declining and though her condition may not be life threatening, if her decline continues she will be basically bed ridden in a few months.


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## turnera

How terrible. Sending prayers y'all's way.


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## happyman64

Thorburn

She needs a kick-ass neurologist.

Get her to the new doctors as soon as possible.

Keep your chin up T.

And deal with her family when you are ready.

Try to have a Happy New Year.

HM


----------



## WalterWhite420

Thorburn said:


> Don't know shaggy. I am listening to the recording now. It is heart breaking.


I told every detail I know about my wife's A to her entire family in an open letter, and I'm glad I did. I will never regret it.


----------



## hopefulgirl

OMG. So sorry to hear this. My WH is dealing with a health issue now, but nothing of this magnitude. We've had to cancel some MC sessions as a result, and I really miss them - I don't get as much stuff "out" when we don't have those sessions, partly because we've been instructed to hold the heavy stuff for that safer environment and partly because he hasn't felt well (I think you can relate to the latter reason).

I have some trigger dates coming up, but he is aware of them and is determined to help me through them, so I do appreciate that (he's not incapacitated, like your wife is). But the health situation has slowed down our progress, and my healing. (I guess his healing too, when I think about it - he has a tendency to avoid problems, so this facing things head on is stretching new muscles for him, which is good for him in a lot of ways; he actually likes counseling sessions!)

I know you'd like to be healing and moving forward, and this caregiver role is not where any BS thinks they'll end up - WE think we'll be getting some extra TLC right about now. I hope you're at least getting some love and gratitude in between the bouts of severe illness. I know when someone is really ill they often don't think to thank you - but in between, I hope she's sharing with you some heartfelt expressions of love and appreciation. Because after what you've been through, I hope she knows how truly blessed she is to have you.


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## bfree

Thorburn, I pray for your wife to find health and I pray for God to give you strength to bear yet another burden. Sometimes I feel your are a modern day Job.


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## SaltInWound

I do hope your wife gets the answer to her medical mystery soon.

Please don't forget to take care of yourself.


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## bandit.45

She's reaping twenty or so years of guilt and sinful behavior. Is God punishing her? No. All that guilt and shame that has built up had to have relief valve.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

Thorburn said:


> Update:
> 
> 1. Wife's condition has gotten worse. She quit her job the other day and was crying about it this morning.
> 2. Meniere's syndrome has been ruled out.
> 3. My wife fired her neurologist two weeks ago. He was an arse and it is a long story. She will be seeing another group in February.
> 4. Have taken her to the E.R. several times since last post and it was all worthless. They all said she needs to see a neurologist.
> 5. All the tests she has had points to a Central brain or Central Nervous system disorder, not an ear issue as we had thought.
> 6. She can spend more then 17 hours in bed with severe virtigo.
> 7. She fears she might be dying.
> .


Does she have random spots of numbness in areas on her body, extremely fatigued at times and trouble gripping objects?

I apologize for being nosy.


----------



## Thorburn

hopefulgirl said:


> OMG. So sorry to hear this. My WH is dealing with a health issue now, but nothing of this magnitude. We've had to cancel some MC sessions as a result, and I really miss them - I don't get as much stuff "out" when we don't have those sessions, partly because we've been instructed to hold the heavy stuff for that safer environment and partly because he hasn't felt well (I think you can relate to the latter reason).
> 
> I have some trigger dates coming up, but he is aware of them and is determined to help me through them, so I do appreciate that (he's not incapacitated, like your wife is). But the health situation has slowed down our progress, and my healing. (I guess his healing too, when I think about it - he has a tendency to avoid problems, so this facing things head on is stretching new muscles for him, which is good for him in a lot of ways; he actually likes counseling sessions!)
> 
> I know you'd like to be healing and moving forward, and this caregiver role is not where any BS thinks they'll end up - WE think we'll be getting some extra TLC right about now. I hope you're at least getting some love and gratitude in between the bouts of severe illness. I know when someone is really ill they often don't think to thank you - but in between, I hope she's sharing with you some heartfelt expressions of love and appreciation. Because after what you've been through, I hope she knows how truly blessed she is to have you.


My wife does say I am the only one that cares about her. Sex is now very infrequent. That is part of my frustration. Things were fairly good up till July 6th the day she got sick. I understand she is sick and I do mean very ill. I know she feels bad about this as she mentions it. She tells me she loves me all the time. She says she is grateful that I have given her another chance.

Right now I have a wife who can barely walk, has constant headaches, dizzyness, nausea, etc. And her world is spinning and her ear is buzzing. There are times she can't hear me speak.


----------



## MattMatt

If it came on suddenly, it might have a viral origin.

If so, a neurologist might not be really sure about what's happening.


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## Thorburn

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Does she have random spots of numbness in areas on her body, extremely fatigued at times and trouble gripping objects?
> 
> I apologize for being nosy.


She has arthritis so griping has been an issue for years. Numbness, tingling in her fingers and some numbness from time to time but nothing else.

Fatigued. Due to her headaches and after one of her attacks, yes. She spent 17 hours in bed the other day.


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> She can spend more then 17 hours in bed with severe virtigo.


That vertigo can be pretty bad, I have a friend how has it after suffering a traumatic brain injury and he uses a walker now. He's fallen over and smacked his head several times just trying to get from the bed to the walker.

T


----------



## kristin2349

Thorburn said:


> She has arthritis so griping has been an issue for years. Numbness, tingling in her fingers and some numbness from time to time but nothing else.
> 
> Fatigued. Due to her headaches and after one of her attacks, yes. She spent 17 hours in bed the other day.


Words seem kind of hollow and empty. I'm sorry. 

I know you are smart enough to know you are at high risk for caregiver burnout. So please try to figure out a way to care take care of yourself through this.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Thorburn said:


> She has arthritis so griping has been an issue for years. Numbness, tingling in her fingers and some numbness from time to time but nothing else.
> 
> Fatigued. Due to her headaches and after one of her attacks, yes. She spent 17 hours in bed the other day.


Have them check for Multiple Sclerosis. My wife had small episodes, that were misdiagnosed for years, until I made her get checked by a neurologists. Yes, they have found that there are a growing number of people being diagnosed with Late Onset MS.


----------



## Thorburn

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Have them check for Multiple Sclerosis. My wife had small episodes, that were misdiagnosed for years, until I made her get checked by a neurologists. Yes, they have found that there are a growing number of people being diagnosed with Late Onset MS.


Checked for MS, brain tumors, lupus, stroke and all came out clean. The first thought that several of her doctors said was MS, stroke or brain tumor. She had those tests done first. 

She had tests for meniers disease as someone here suggested. The VNT test and other tests several weeks ago ruled that out. Her ENT says it has to do with a central brain and central system disorder.

She saw a neurologist twice. He was and is an arse. She asked him to do two tests, an MRA and a spinal test. He refused and asked why? She said all her other doctors told her she needs these tests and that a neurologist would be the one to do them. He said, "You could die of a blood clot in your brain right now, and what would you expect me to do?". She said forget it, I will find another neurologist. He said, I can recommend some to you and my wife said why would I ask you for anything and she left. 

I had her in the E.R. this past Friday and the doctor said you need an MRA but we need a neurologist to order it. 

She has an appointment with Jefferson University in Feb. They have a good Neurology group but it takes a while to get in there. 

She had intesive blood work done two weeks ago. Lupus, lymnes and other things were ruled out. Her Rheumotologist order this.


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## phillybeffandswiss

That sucks. I hope this gets figured out, neither of you need this stress.


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## MattMatt

These symptoms could be related to arthritis.
What are the symptoms of neck problems? | Arthritis Research UK


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## larry.gray

Could she have gotten Lime's Disease?


----------



## Rev. Clonn

You and yours will be in my prayers.

I too suffer with a wife who has significant medical problems that make intimacy infrequent. I often feel that I have half a marriage, I cannot imagine how tough it is after affairs and during reconciling.

I have to agree with the other posters you are a modern day saint. May the good Lord keep you in hand and close to his heart through out your trials.


----------



## cdbaker

I just spent a few hours reading most of your posts in this thread (only your posts, reading all of them would have taken a day or so) and I am just floored by your whole story. Each page modified my opinion/views in some form or another, and now at the end, wow. I can't say that I have any advice for you (many times earlier in your "story" I certainly did), but now I am left with the sole impression that God indeed has been at work in your life and that of your family. (As he is in all of our lives to some degree) I truly hope and will pray for you and your family to continue to heal, spiritually, emotionally and especially physically in the immediate future.


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## jim123

My wife went through this exact situation. Turns out she had vertigo and a ruptured ear drum. Sometimes they overlook the simple.

She was blacking out, could not stand, could not get up.


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## Thorburn

jim123 said:


> My wife went through this exact situation. Turns out she had vertigo and a ruptured ear drum. Sometimes they overlook the simple.
> 
> She was blacking out, could not stand, could not get up.


They rule out lyme's. She has been tested several times and was tested again a few weeks ago.

The ENT ruled out ear issues. His tests point to a central brain and central nervous system disorder.

We started with the simple. Brain tumor, MS, Lyme's and stroke. 

Seems more complicated.


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## Rugs

There is only one lab that tests for the correct bands of Lyme Disease.

IGENEX in California. Standard Elisa testing does not test for the correct bands so you will get a negative test result 90% of the time.

I have lyme and it took years to figure out because my tests were all negative too.

IGENEX showed me a screaming positive. I got IV antibiotics and got well.

PLEASE don't rule out Lyme. I speak from experience. 

I could not stand, walk, talk correctly, ........it was a nightmare.


----------



## Rugs

Another thing, your wife's symptoms are highly common in the Lyme Community. There are several people I have come to know that have gone through the same thing. 

Watch the movie, "under Our skin", it will explain a lot. I know you can watch it on HULU. The movie will give you answers.


----------



## Thorburn

*Update*:

My wife does not have lyme's. 

My wife's condition continues to get worse. Severe headaches are almost constant, vertigo, loud ear ringing in her left ear, etc. She walks around like a drunken sailor (sorry for you Navy guys).

Her Rhuemotologist stopped her chemo. She was on this for over 6 years, $6000.00 every eight weeks. She is now on a new pill and no bad results from stopping the chemo. But her doctor was concerned about her condition and recommended other tests and doctors.

Saw a Neurologist and fired him. In fact she walked out of his office. He was a jerk and did not want to do tests other then a stupid sleep study.

We found a new Neurologist at Jefferson. She is great. Got it right away and recommended a bunch of tests. Found out my wife has severe stenosis in her neck that the doctor feels is causing her problems. The test shows mild, moderate and severe stenosis on her spinal cord in the region on her neck, more then likely caused by arthritis. This causes all or most of the symptoms she is having. The severe stenosis is on the left side which causes the ear ringing in her left ear.

My wife started to have severe itching in her legs and it has spread all over her body to include her face. She saw a dermatologist in Delaware yesterday and she is having my wife go through a battery or tests to include being tested for lung, skin and blood cancers. She feels though that it is neurological due to the stenosis, but she is also being cautious, thus other tests. My wife was pleased with this doctor in that she had read all my wife's recent tests prior to my wife's appointment. She was very throrough.

Based upon the tests that she has had, she still has tons of blood work and biopsies to have done, the Neurologist set her up to see a Neuro-surgeon. At the end of March she will see the Neuro-surgeon and later in the day see her Neurologist.

Unfortunately the severe stenosis can lead to permanant paralysis if not treated. The three types of surgeries that could be done are problematic in that two could lead to a permanant neck brace and at least 6 months of recovery. The typical recovery period for one of the surgeries for a woman my wife's age is at least six months or longer.

We will not know if surgery is an option until we meet with the neuro-surgeon later in March.

My wife typically goes to bed early in the evening as her condition worsens later in the afternoon through the evening. By evening she is typically curled up in a ball. She gets up around 3 A.M. or 4 A.M. due to the headache and itching.

She typically has a Bible verse for me in the morning and we read the scriptures and pray every morning and evening.

This morning my wife prayed, "Lord, I want to thank you for the mercy and compassion Mac has shown me over the past months, for him taking me back and giving me another chance".

Last weekend we visited her younger brother for the first time since early last year. I was very anxious but it turned out fine.

My wife even with all her physical problems is still doing a lot of heavy lifting and she is very sincere in her efforts.

Our sex life is very poor due to her illness. I have talked to her about it and she feels bad about it. During the week it is the worse, because by the time I get home she is in a bad state. So we only have weekends and that does not always work out if she is having a bad day. She tells me I can have it whenever I want it, but in reality when I see her curled up in a ball, no matter how bad I might want sex, I just can't.

I trigger less, but her A's are with me everyday. It does get better with time but I am not at a point of where I am not reminded everyday about it. I certainly don't rage or drink, but it has had a tremendous impact on my life. My wife knows everytime I even think about it, that is how in tune she is with me and tells me that she is here for me. Still does not take the sting away and I have hope that eventually this too will pass.


----------



## happyman64

Thorburn

As much as I feel compassion for your wife and what she is going through I also feel that you should be Canonized!

And I am being sincere when I say that.

You are a true inspiration for many battered spouses on TAM.

You, your wife and as well as your entire family are in my prayers.

HM


----------



## badmemory

Thorburn,

Glad to hear that at least now, your wife has a diagnosis. Not understanding what's wrong with her is the worst part, as I can attest to, and hopefully you are past that.

I can empathize with the conflicting emotions of being caretaker and BS. That's difficult for some to understand, but I know what you're going through.


----------



## karole

Thornburn - sorry about your wife's condition. I hope she is able to improve with treatment, surgery, etc. We don't know how fortunate we are to have good health do we? 

I hope your wife finally realizes just how fortunate she is to have a husband like you............

You and your family will be in my thoughts and prayers.


----------



## carpenoctem

Thorburn:

I am not a believer, but I must say people such as you represent all that’s good in religion.

Please accept my best wishes.


P.S.:
Has your wife been checked for MS (multiple sclerosis) / Lupus?


----------



## Thorburn

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Thorburn:
> 
> I am not a believer, but I must say people such as you represent all that’s good in religion.
> 
> Please accept my best wishes.
> 
> 
> P.S.:
> Has your wife been checked for MS (multiple sclerosis) / Lupus?


Thanks. Yes she has been checked. The doctors were worried at first that she may have had MS, a brain tumor, or a stroke. Those were ruled out. Her other doctors tested her for Lupus, the ENT tested her for inner ear issues to include Meniers and it all pointed to a central nervous system issue. The Rheumatologist was worried about central nervous system Lupus caused by her chemo and that was ruled out. And many of her other tests ruled out things but never until now did her tests reveal the cause. 

Even though she has severe stenosis we still have to see what the neuro-surgeon says.

The Dermatologist that she saw yesterday believes her itchy skin is also caused by this as her central nervous system issues can cause the nerves in her body to "itch", but certain cancers can cause itching so she wants to rule cancer out, e.g. lung, skin and blood cancers, which she will be tested for in the next week or so.

I am hopeful that this is all caused by the stenosis and that it can be fixed. Doing research on the surgeries for stenosis is pretty frightening.


----------



## Thorburn

badmemory said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> Glad to hear that at least now, your wife has a diagnosis. Not understanding what's wrong with her is the worst part, as I can attest to, and hopefully you are past that.
> 
> I can empathize with the conflicting emotions of being caretaker and BS. That's difficult for some to understand, but I know what you're going through.


Badmemory, it stinks. I don't mind doing some of the laundry, cooking, shopping, etc. But the affection is not there, for the most part. She goes to bed early. In the evening she looks horrible, as she is intense pain, apologizes and goes to bed. I really don't blame her. When a person gets ill they become very self centered. I understand that as I worked as a chaplain in trauma, in a hospital and nursing home. If I had a constant headache, I would not be feeling lovey dovey.

My wife makes attempts and is constantly apologizing. She will make statements like, "I am tired of feeling sick all the time and I should be doing more things with you". I am in the process of refinishing tables, laying a hardwood floor and ceiling in our sunroom, all things she use to help me with. She can't do any of those things. We rarely go shopping together. I "force" her to get out, but these are typically very brief trips.


----------



## Squeakr

Thorburn, have you asked her to try and adjust her schedule so that she may be more there for you each day? Such as suggesting that she take an early afternoon nap, so that she doesn't have to go to bed so early and end up getting up so early.

If she is able to nap a few times during the day, maybe the headaches won't set in as quickly and she will be more available to spend time with you later on in the day. It just seems like this is something to try (at least attempt for a while) to see if things might get a little better, and it might make her feel better as she is rejuvenating during the day and not draining her body as much so she is dead by the time you come home?


----------



## thesunwillcomeout

Coming out of semi-retirement to post. See if you can take her to an LLMD to get tested for Lyme's co-infections, specifically bartonella (use Galaxy lab in NC), Lyme (Igenex) and very important...Protomyxzoa Rheumatica (Fry laboratories) in Arizona. Her symptoms are very familiar!! Standard labs like Labcorp are 20yrs behind and do not have the cutting edge testing to diagnose these conditions. Many vector-born illnesses cause secondary conditions such as Rh A. Clear up the illness and the others go. Many of these bugs (bacteria and Protozoa) create a biofilm around themselves. The blood gets thicker -- can cause white matter on the brain, neuropathy, hypo-thyroid ism type II, fibromyalgia-like symptoms. There is help but you have to do research and think outside of the box. 

Praying...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thesunwillcomeout

Sorry, one more thing. I had debilitating headaches. Stopped sleeping, gut wrenching pain -- curled up in a ball. Brain fog was ridiculous. Mood disorder/anger. Dizziness, nausea, couldn't stop gaining weight. Neuropathy, tingling in limbs, tender soles of feet, numbness and pain was mostly on the left side of my body. Neck spasms and left shoulder awful. I was diagnosed with Protomyxzoa Rheumatica. When I was diagnosed it had just been named that summer. If you can go to an MD in Delaware maybe a neighboring state wouldn't be so far? Tmgmd.com
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Thorburn said:


> Thanks. Yes she has been checked. The doctors were worried at first that she may have had MS, a brain tumor, or a stroke. Those were ruled out. Her other doctors tested her for Lupus, the ENT tested her for inner ear issues to include Meniers and it all pointed to a central nervous system issue. The Rheumatologist was worried about central nervous system Lupus caused by her chemo and that was ruled out. And many of her other tests ruled out things but never until now did her tests reveal the cause.
> 
> Even though she has severe stenosis we still have to see what the neuro-surgeon says.
> 
> The Dermatologist that she saw yesterday believes her itchy skin is also caused by this as her central nervous system issues can cause the nerves in her body to "itch", but certain cancers can cause itching so she wants to rule cancer out, e.g. lung, skin and blood cancers, which she will be tested for in the next week or so.
> 
> I am hopeful that this is all caused by the stenosis and that it can be fixed. Doing research on the surgeries for stenosis is pretty frightening.


Just wondering... What tests were used to rule out MS? My wife has MS and experiences many of the same symptoms that you've described, even w/ medication (though they're now less frequent and somewhat less severe).


----------



## hopefulgirl

Glad to hear you got a doc that you like (very important) and now a diagnosis too, because even though stenosis isn't a good diagnosis to have, at least you have an answer and some idea about what can be done.

Unfortunately, I'm assuming the medical folk don't know about the post-infidelity situation that you're dealing with in addition to being her primary caregiver. They may realize you have a rough time of it, but they have no idea HOW rough it truly is. Being a caregiver for someone like her is incredibly draining, but you have another layer of trauma and grief that they have NO idea is going on at the same time.

Hope you are getting some additional support, some "me" time, and some time to unwind. Please remember to be good to yourself and take care of yourself - they always tell caregivers to do like the flight attendants tell you to do when the oxygen masks come down because if you try to put the mask on someone else before you put your own on, you might end up not getting anybody's mask on.


----------



## Thorburn

Squeakr said:


> Thorburn, have you asked her to try and adjust her schedule so that she may be more there for you each day? Such as suggesting that she take an early afternoon nap, so that she doesn't have to go to bed so early and end up getting up so early.
> 
> If she is able to nap a few times during the day, maybe the headaches won't set in as quickly and she will be more available to spend time with you later on in the day. It just seems like this is something to try (at least attempt for a while) to see if things might get a little better, and it might make her feel better as she is rejuvenating during the day and not draining her body as much so she is dead by the time you come home?


She does very little work around the house. She use to be a clean freak. Today after I left for work she slept from 7 A.M. till 1:30 P.M. and right now is not feeling well. There are a few days where she has slept for 17 hours.

She does not push herself too hard.


----------



## Thorburn

GusPolinski said:


> Just wondering... What tests were used to rule out MS? My wife has MS and experiences many of the same symptoms that you've described, even w/ medication (though they're now less frequent and somewhat less severe).



My ex neighbor and a good friend of ours have MS. A MRI is typically used as in my wife's case. She had several MRIs. No MS. She is getting a spinal tap which is another test.


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## GusPolinski

Thorburn said:


> My ex neighbor and a good friend of ours have MS. A MRI is typically used as in my wife's case. She had several MRIs. No MS. She is getting a spinal tap which is another test.


I was just going to mention that... An MRI is often used for an initial diagnosis but a spinal tap is THE way to definitively diagnose MS.


----------



## happy as a clam

Wow Thor, so sorry for all the problems she's having. But, where are YOU at, my friend, in all of this? Where are you in terms of forgiveness, or acceptance of all that has happened?

It's so hard to lose sight of OURSELVES when we are dealing with a chronically ill loved one. As a counselor, you already know this 

Just looking out for you in all of this.


----------



## illwill

Thor, i had no faith you would be able to reconcile with your wife. Well, looks like (at least so far) i was wrong. You are a good man. She is a lucky woman. 

We are richer for having read your story. And im glad you guys are doing good. 

Ill keep her health in my prayers.

This is one of the great redemption stories in all of TAM.


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## Affaircare

Thorburn, 

What you and I are going through is so similar it almost is surprising, and what's best of all is that I know I can respond to you as a brother in Christ, which adds whole other layers to the situation. 

My own Dear Hubby, Tanelornpete, is not doing too well. This week alone, he's been in a lot of pain and like your wife, sleeping a lot. We used to camp and travel all around the state looking at waterfalls--hiking in a few miles just to see a remote one. Now, he can not walk to the kitchen without getting so winded he nearly passes out. Like you and your wife, he has had test after test after test...and we do know he has heart failure and complications due to that. We have been able to control his blood pressure and bring his blood sugars in line, but he takes so many medications that it's confusing AND sometimes he gets so blurry-minded that I have to keep an eye on him to make sure he takes the right one at the right time. Other times, he's clear as a bell and I can see that "old Dear Hubby" is still in there--trapped in a body that forever feels sick and tired. 

Like you I work all day and do the vast majority of the household chores, indoors and out. I get so TIRED from looking around the house and seeing all the things I can't get to! And I get so discouraged at not being able to do things, not being able to get "out and about", not seeing other people on the occasion. It feels like a huge boulder on my shoulders that is crushing me because I'm a wife, and not built to carry all this all alone. I miss sex like crazy. It's not easy!!

BUT...

My strength is not from me. I keep trying to wrestle it out of God's hand so that I'm in control, but this is an EXCELLENT lesson for me in so many ways! For example, God never said married life would be all fun and joy. In fact, even our vows mention worse, poorer, and sickness, so we know it's coming! LOL And I keep reminding myself that my job here in my marriage is not "to get MY needs met"--it's my job to meet Dear Hubby's needs and his job to meet mine. I mean... yep that would sure be nice!... but my job on my side is to SERVE and LEARN. I serve the Lord God Almighty when I treat my Dear Hubby in a loving, caring, compassionate way. It may not be glamorous, but giving someone dignity, in the indignities of being sick, is a service! Okay so I have to load dishes all the time by myself, and do laundry all the time by myself, and vacuum and mop and... and... and...! Big deal. My God, who created EVERYTHING, came to this earth and gave of Himself for me, and the least I can do is not be so focused on myself and serve another person! Especially someone I care for and love so much. 

I know that may sound nuts to some people or like an unhealthy disregard for my own needs, but I firmly believe that as a believing Christian, my worldview is 100% different than perhaps some other person's worldview: namely that rather than looking out for my own self interests and promote myself, my goal as a Christian is to willingly and joyfully serve. It's like learning about affairs--you think they are about sex and the opposite is actually true. You think you can "nice" them back and the opposite is actually true. Same here--you think of your marriage as a place "to get your needs met" and in reality the opposite is actually true: marriage is the place where you learn so much about your spouse that you get to practice meeting their needs!

Does that mean I don't miss sex? Of course not! Lord knows! But there are other ways to be physical and affectionate (like kissing--oh my gosh, rediscover it!). And what I see from my own Dear Hubby is that he can't hike anymore but he can watch shows with me, read books, play games, talk about my day and his day...ways that used to be our "wind down" activities are now the ways that we still connect. We don't want a non-affectionate marriage so we've found new ways to still be together on all kinds of levels. Hey, he can't clean but who really cares about that? Right? 

Anyway, I can REALLY empathize with you. And you know my one word of advice for you? This isn't about you. It isn't even about her! It's about learning to be a more godly man. It's about God shaping you and teaching you to be the man He intends for you to be. Keep focusing on the prize, and run the good race.


----------



## convert

Thorburn went through he11.
I remember in one of his old post that he felt bummed that POSOM got his healthy wife and now he has to take care of her.
Thorburn is a good man.
I hope she knows that the OM would not be there to care of her


----------



## Thorburn

happy as a clam said:


> Wow Thor, so sorry for all the problems she's having. But, where are YOU at, my friend, in all of this? Where are you in terms of forgiveness, or acceptance of all that has happened?
> 
> It's so hard to lose sight of OURSELVES when we are dealing with a chronically ill loved one. As a counselor, you already know this
> 
> Just looking out for you in all of this.


To be honest, I have not totally forgiven her, at least I don't feel that I have. My avatar is a picture of C.S. Lewis and he writes about forgiveness, and in one of his writings "Fern Seed and Elephants", he says this, “...here also forgiving does not mean excusing. Many people seem to think it does. They think that if you ask them to forgive someone who has cheated or bullied them you are trying to make out that there was really no cheating or bullying. But if that were so, there would be nothing to forgive. (This doesn't mean that you must necessarily believe his next promise. It does mean that you must make every effort to kill every taste of resentment in your own heart - every wish to humiliate or hurt him or to pay him out.)”

I am working on killing any resentment I have towards her and to keep my mind from wanting to see her pay for what she has done. That is what I mean by not totally forgiving her. I still have resentments and thoughts of pay back from time to time.


Last night my wife was looking and feeling ill, this morning she looked like h*ll. I told her last night that I feel somewhat lonely in all this. She was crying and felt horrible, and we were talking a little and this is when I spoke of feeling lonely. She said she does not want me to feel lonely.

I know she is depressed and I have talked to her about it. I know she is frustrated with all the wasted time with various doctors. if we had gone to this new Neurologist in the beginning we would have seen the Neuro-surgeon months ago, and she is frustrated with that.

I am getting to a point of accepting what happened with my wife's A's. I don't want to come across as arogant but I still see no fault in myself as far as causing my wife to do what she did. All the exucses that she threw up at me over the years have no merit. As she said, she became lost, selfish, self-centered and did not care, and she said it had nothing to do with me.

Presently I do have a plan for self care and I just have to change a few things around the house and I will be able to do a little more for me.


----------



## Philat

I was on the point of pursuing D with my W after all her bu!!sh!t when she received a cancer diagnosis (second one). Put everything else aside to help her through. In the end the issues were still there, but the raw anger and resentment were gone, which enabled us to continue together until we found a better place. I hope you find the same, Thorburn.


----------



## Thorburn

Update:

My wife continues to get worse. 
* She is having numbness and tingling in her left leg and hip, this started within the last two weeks.
* She started physical therapy and her therapist is very concerned but we can't see the neurosurgeon any sooner. 
* The past two days she looks like h*ll. 
* I just took her to the drug store and she had to hang on me as she could not walk by herself.
* She is having problems urinating.
* Her new dermatologist thought she might have cancer in addition to her central nervous system issues. Ultrasound and other tests showed no cancer.
* Her one foot is going numb.
* Her walking ability is becoming worse.
* We see the neurosurgeon on the 31st.
* The diagnosis of severe stenosis points to all her issues to include the severe itching skin.
* I looked at her MRI and MRA and the MRI clearly shows the bone (If I remember correctly it is c-4 and C-5 in her neck) pushing against the spinal cord.
* She sleeps a good bit of the day and can't do much.
* Her oldest brother, has a parishioner in his church that had the same thing. He nearly died. After the surgery he has to learn to walk again as he lost that ability. And the recovery period we are told is a long process.
* Right now we are thinking that there are possible procedures, Posterior Cervical Laminoforaminotomy, anterior cervical discectomy, fusion and total disc arthroplasty (which is a newer procedure). Basically fusing the bones or replacing them.


On the positive side, I was on our FB today and forgot I left it on at work. She started chatting to an old college friend of hers that I had sent messages to about my wife's cheating. My wife did not know I was on and she said very positive things about me. Ironically, all the previous posts of me complaining about my wife's cheating to this friend are all still on there and my wife did not delete them.


----------



## Chaparral

Prayers for you both. Good luck.


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## turnera

Have you tried calling the specialist every morning to see if they've had a cancellation?


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## bandit.45

She spends all those years cheating on you and treating you like garbage. 

Now you get to spend the rest of her life nursing her. 

Makes me so mad I could spit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Have you tried calling the specialist every morning to see if they've had a cancellation?


I have suggested that very thing to her, and will continue to do so.


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## happyman64

So Thorburn do you feel your wife is more like the person she was when you first married her?

And while I understand where Bandit is coming from I do believe we all deal with the trials we are given in different ways.


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## turnera

I don't understand. Why can't YOU call them?


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## bandit.45

happyman64 said:


> So Thorburn do you feel your wife is more like the person she was when you first married her?
> 
> And while I understand where Bandit is coming from I do believe we all deal with the trials we are given in different ways.


Trials?

Trials? This is more than a trial friend Happy. This is an ongoing emotional imprisonment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

bandit.45 said:


> Trials?
> 
> Trials? This is more than a trial friend Happy. This is an ongoing emotional imprisonment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not if you love her/him. It's called love.


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## bandit.45

Acabado said:


> Not if you love her/him. It's called love.


Yeah.....I guess.


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## WhiteRaven

Acabado said:


> Not if you love her/him. It's called love.


Would someone tell me what love is? This word gets abused so much, I have difficulty understanding it anymore.


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## Acabado

WhiteRaven said:


> Would someone tell me what love is? This word gets abused so much, I have difficulty understanding it anymore.


As they say I can't define it but I can identify it when i see it, and when I feel it, I'd add (I know it's not the correct wording).
Thorburn loves his imperfect wife. It's just how it is. I can relate.
Thorburn also has managed to forgive her, completely, genuinely. I can't relate the same way, I've struggled with this way more, he's better than me.
Thorburn is suffering becasue his loved wife is suffering. I know it's hard to comprehend... after-all-she-put-on-him, but It's actually very simple. Not easy but simple.


----------



## WhiteRaven

Acabado said:


> As they say I can't define it but I can identify it when i see it, and when I feel it, I'd add (I know it's not the correct wording).
> Thorburn loves his imperfect wife. It's just how it is. I can relate.
> Thorburn also has managed to forgive her, completely, genuinely. I can't relate the same way, I've struggled with this way more, he's better than me.
> Thorburn is suffering becasue his loved wife is suffering. I know it's hard to comprehend... after-all-she-put-on-him, but It's actually very simple. Not easy but simple.


Love is a word that triggers me. My xWW abused it so much, it lost meaning for me. Sorry for sounding cynical.


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## Noble1

Thorburn,

Sorry, don't have anything to contribute at this time. I followed your thread when it first came up, then needed a TAM break and just checking into TAM again now.

Just wanted to say you are the model of a gracious spirit and have nothing but awe at how you can handle everything now.

Keep strong and don't forget taking care of yourself too.


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## Thorburn

nikoled said:


> I second this...test for Lyme...


This is not lymes. The MRI clearly shows a stenosis at her c-4 and c-5 cervical spine. Due to arthritis, this area of her neck is degenerated and one of the bones is pushing against her spinal cord. All of her symtoms to include the itchy skin are all indications of severe stenosis in the cervical spine. 

The MRI report (and I looked over the images) show, mild stenosis of the C-4 and C-5 on the right side, moderate stenosis of the C-4 and C-5 in the middle and severe stenosis of the C-4 and C-5 on the left side. 

It is her left side that has been challenged. 60% hearing loss in her left ear, loud buzzing in her left ear, numbness and tingling in her left leg and left hip.

The ENT, rheumotologist, dermatologist, neurologist, physical therapist, two E.R. doctors, and the tests, MRI, MRA, etc all state or show that this is a central nervous system disorder. And the MRI clearly shows the problem, a bone pushing on the spinal cord. 

She just started having urinary issues, and again this is related to her stenosis.

Everything my wife has and it seems lately that about once a week something new develops. This week it was urinary issues. And they don't go away, they just add to the symptoms she is already having.


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## Csquare

Thorburn,

Have her checked for B12 and vitamin D deficiency. My husband also has cervical spinal stenosis and I found a pubmed article that found b12 deficiency is a common co-morbidity with spinal stenosis.

B12 deficiency: a silent epidemic with serious consequences

H symptoms include numbness and tingling in legs and difficulty with arousal. We have him on raw oysters and raw beef liver - which are food high in B12. H seems better as far as sex goes.


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## Thorburn

turnera said:


> I don't understand. Why can't YOU call them?


As serious as this is, the doctors do not look at this as an emergency. Serious, yes, requiring emergency care, no. We have a request for an earlier appointment. We have looked at other neurosurgeons as my insurance allow us to go just about anywhere without a referral. None can give us an earlier appointment.

If I took my wife to Jefferson E.R. (where her doctors are located) they would not admit my wife.


I just called again and they told me someone will be calling my wife in the next 15 minutes. I gave my wife a heads up. She had called earlier today and got the run around and she told me she does not have the energy to argue and left a message and did not recieve a call back..


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## Thorburn

Csquare said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> Have her checked for B12 and vitamin D deficiency. My husband also has cervical spinal stenosis and I found a pubmed article that found b12 deficiency is a common co-morbidity with spinal stenosis.
> 
> B12 deficiency: a silent epidemic with serious consequences
> 
> H symptoms include numbness and tingling in legs and difficulty with arousal. We have him on raw oysters and raw beef liver - which are food high in B12. H seems better as far as sex goes.


I have low vit. D and did not know how serious it was and my doctor has me on supplements.

My wife's levels for B12 and Vit. D are within normal limits. She has had blood work done several times in the last two months and as late as two weeks ago.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> She spends all those years cheating on you and treating you like garbage.
> 
> Now you get to spend the rest of her life nursing her.
> 
> Makes me so mad I could spit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bandit. When I read your post (man it is so long ago) about how you ended it with your wife, I thought you are the man, and I still do. The way you handled it to me was a class act.

I was in a rush this morning and did not pray for her as I normally do in the morning. I did pray for her all the way on my drive to work and sent her a text.

She called me and told me that she prays for me alot and that she is praying harder for me now, knowing that I have my own difficulties in dealing with what she has done and now her condition.

Since July of 2013 when this all started with my wife being sick I have been putting alot on the back burner. I have questions that I would like answered from time to time. I have asked her some but most of the time I keep them to myself. I wanted to take her out to a hotel and have some fun, could not be done. 

1. Right now sex is out of the question. Last week it was basically a quickie and I could tell she was in pain and I wanted to stop but she insisted that we finish. Honestly, it was not enjoyable. 

2. She tells me that she wants to be here for me and says I deserve better but she can't help this. 

3. I feel like any moment she will either die or be permanently paralyzed. I check on her at night to see if she is still warm. Sounds morbid but as I see her progressively getting worse, I am expecting the worse.

4. Our special needs son (age 29) asked me the other day, "Is mom dying, she looks and seems like she is going to die?" All I could say is, "I don't know".

5. In the 80's I loved "punk rock". One of my favorite bands, After the Fire wrote a song (lyrics below) that I use to think about my father. He was a mean guy at the time and I had very little to do with him during this time. We made up in the early 90's and when he died in 2012 he had a good death and I had many good memories of going on vacation with him and mom from 1992 till the time I went to Iraq in 2008. ANyway the lyrics really do apply to my wife (she is not fat, nor ugly, she is rather thin):

Who's gonna love you when you're old and fat and ugly
And everything about you's turning grey
Who's gonna love you when the jokes no longer funny
Who's gonna give you your own way
And who's gonna love you when they've seen you in the morning
With all your hair down in your eyes
Who's gonna smile when all you do is sit there yawning
And everyone can see through your disguise 
You better think about your running round or you could finish up so lonely
You could be the one who's missing out some day

Who's gonna love you when they've seen your nasty habits
And heard about the things you've done
Who's gonna love you when you go through your theatrics
When you don't get what you want
Who's gonna love you when you get too old to boogie
And you're too tired to hit the town
Who's gonna love you when you get all mean and moody
Who's gonna want you hanging round

You better think about your running round or you could finish up so lonely
You could be the one who's missing out some day

Who's gonna love you when you're old and fat and ugly
And everything about you's turning grey
Who's gonna love you when the jokes no longer funny
Who's gonna love you anyway 

6. I don't believe in Karma per se, but it does seem to me that there is some type of divine intervention going on here. I am going to put on my theological hat. Suffering as I understand it can happen to anyone, good or bad. The Bible says, "the rain falls on the just and the unjust". Suffering is one of those great mysteries. Job never got an answer as to his suffering. David in the Psalms wrote about the prospering of the wicked. There are cases in the Scriptures where good people suffered badly and other cases where they were blessed beyond measure in this life. Some evil doers were punished or even had their lives end abruptly and in other passages, evil doers seemed to have no consequences at all for their evil deeds. 

The righteous can suffer as well as the unrighteous. And both can be blessed in this life. I will never understand it nor do I lose sleep over it. Pain, suffering, and evil are things that many theologians, philosophers, etc have tried to address. Whether you come from a secular point of view or a religious one, as I have read quite a bit on this subject over the years, it seems that their are no answers, but I do subscribe to a view that there are some good attempts. I do like C.S. Lewis' books on this subject, "The Problem of Pain" and "A Grief Observed".


7. I am at a lost right now. I had to put many things that I wanted to deal with in R on hold. I am somewhat OK with it under the circumstances. I feel pity for my wife. She has done a lot to bring about healing, by being transparent, answering questions, not blaming me, praising me, etc. But physical intimacy has died. There is little emotional support right now from her and this is not her fault. When I say my wife is ill I mean she is very ill. Is this fair? h*ll no. I bent over backwards and if I told you all what she did to me, what I found out she did to me, you would more then likely puke your liver and spleens out your noses. 

8. Last year, even with good health insurance, I paid more then $5,000.00 out of pocket for her medical care. This year (thanks to Obama care), I will be spending more then $8,000.00 out of pocket. So much for affordable care. And I am not a wealthy guy. I live paycheck to paycheck. My wife had to quit her job. All my medical stuff is free due to being considered a "disabled Veteran", so I pay obsolutely nothing for my care.


Yea I am ranting. I feel like my head is going to exploud. I have not cried in almost a year and I feel like I could. 

Am I going to be OK? Yes. I have Christ in my life and I am sure that there is nothing that I can't bear as long as He is in my life. I am not saying that I don't need to talk to someone, I will shortly. I am not saying that I am above seeking worldly help, I am going to in a few minutes, but this too will pass and I will make it.

Just feel overwhelmed by it all.


----------



## Thorburn

Talked to the neurologist. We are leaving for the E.R. in a few minutes. He feels that there was a spinal cord episode and wants her to be seen right away.


----------



## bandit.45

I know you love your wife regardless of all the hell she put you through, and maybe what she is experiencing is some sort of divine wrath.. 

But it's still not fvcking fair.... You deserve so much more than this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jorgegene

Thorburn is an inspiration to me.

Prayers for him and his wife.


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## turnera

Thorburn said:


> Talked to the neurologist. We are leaving for the E.R. in a few minutes. He feels that there was a spinal cord episode and wants her to be seen right away.


Thank God.

And about time.


----------



## Affaircare




----------



## Thorburn

Long night. Saw neurologist and neurosurgeon. My wife is getting another MRI as I write this. They want to compare this one with the one she had in February. She is now having problems urinating and can't walk unassisted, this started three days ago. The neurologist was sticking her with a pin on her face, arms, and legs. And she only felt a sharp prick near her lip, she said all the rest was a dull object.


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## MattMatt

I wonder if your wife's infidelities were an early manifestation of a neurological problem?

PS Praying for you both and your children. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Thorburn said:


> I thought things were going fine in R. Then several months ago something happened that did not make sense. We moved into our new home (yea I was warned). We went to our other house to get it ready for renters. We drove almost two hours and I took a route that took us about a mile from the OM's house. My wife said she would never come this way. Then a month later my wife calls me at 5 P.M on a thursday. She says she is at our antique business (almost 2 1/2 hours away). I said "what", we do this together and we could have gone on the weekend. she said, "I did not tell you because I knew you would get mad". I said no, you are calling me because you know you will not be home in time to hide what you did". She then told me she drove up the route I took. When she got home I said isn't it something that you are on this route and near the OM's house at the time he gets off work. I said your timeline is all wrong. There is no way you ever stay at the antique business that long and I accuse her of meeting up with the OM. She got mad and said I screwed up and said "I am sorry" I said what do you mean you screwed up, those are words of a cheater. If you were hiding the fact that you went to the antique business from me you would say something different not "I screwed up".
> 
> All the trust i built up was gone. I went into investigation mode.
> 
> I have had a bad feeling for a while and this morning I put a VAR in her car. She said she had to go to work. She had sex with a stranger and was bragging to him that there are other guys. I played the recording for her and she lied saying she was talking about her business. There is more but I called her family and they are shocked. They want to hear the recording. She packed up and left to go to her evil sister. We talked for two hours an she says I am wrong and she is tired of me accusing her. I said I am tired of her lying and cheating. She said the recording is not what I say it is an that I am paranoid. I told her to tell me the truth and she said she did not do anything and that I am making it up.
> 
> UNBELIEVABLE. I have dead solid proof and she is lying. After she had sex with the stranger she is telling him that there are other guys. Her brother wants to hear the recording and I will let him hear it.


Yes I'm over a year late but I want to send my deepest and 

heartfelt condolences for the tragedy you had to hear. You

did something there is no way I could.


----------



## Openminded

I have tried very hard to stay away from this thread for fear I would post something about your wife that I shouldn't. You are an amazing man and I continue to pray for you.


----------



## carmen ohio

Saying prayers for you and your wife, Thorburn.


----------



## love=pain

I am not a praying man but I am thinking about you and hope all is going as well as it can.
Continue to compartmentalize those marriage issues right now they are better left in a box somewhere while you focus on the task at hand.
Unfortunately I have been in the position of having to help someone in a life or death situation after they had committed a mortal sin against me and my family and the conflicts in your life are tremendous. Trust that your efforts while a source of turmoil for you right now will serve the greater good and the benefits to your wife, family and especially you after she overcomes these medical issues will come back tenfold.

I wish you well.


----------



## Chaparral

Hoping and praying for good news. You deserve it.

Chap


----------



## carpenoctem

I don’t believe in God as it goes, but: 
*If I were Christ, I would have been proud of having you on my side, Thorburn.*

Wish you brighter days.

Please accept a homophobic, but heartfelt, hug from me.




*P.S.:
If I were Christ, there are some other things too that I would do for you, but I cannot write about them here.*


----------



## Thorburn

UPDATE:

My wife spent last weekend in the hospital. I called a neurologist who insisted I take her to the E.R. My wife started having problems urinating along with everything else.

Long story short. Spent Friday night till Monday evening in the hospital. Met with over 6 neurologists, over 3 neurosurgeons (to include the chief of neurosurgery), urologists and a host of other specialists. Over two hours of MRI's, massive blood work and other tests. 

She was discharged Monday with a walker. Now she has to use a walker.

Nothing definiative (very frustrating). Ruled out everything again, brain tumor, MS, lupus, etc, etc.

The two last neurologists we met with stated that often in neurology they can't figure everything out and they wish they could.

All I can say is my wife keeps getting worse. She is scheduled to see a neuro-opthalmologist in June, has started vestibular therapy, and will follow up with neuro.

If you look up the symptoms of MS (multible scerosis) you basically will see all the symptoms my wife is having. Last week she started having issues with her bladder, not being able to get a stream going or keeping it going without pushing extremely hard. The urologist thinks it is all related to her neck issues as does her main neurologist, yet the MRI's show that the stenosis is not as severe as they thought.

So now my wife has a brand new walker.


I find myself perplexed at all of this. part of me says she deserves it, yet I am the one holding it all together, having to take care of her, etc. It is an awful weight to carry. There are things I want to discuss about her A's, but since about July 2013, I have basically said very little about it. 

I know she feels bad about the whole thing and has mentioned again that I deserve better then this and that she should be supporting me. 

I think I could have dealt with this disability under normal circumstances, but the fact that she had A's from 2010 till 2013, really is a hard pill to swallow.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Well thorburn it speaks volume about the kind of man you are and less about the kind of woman she is... I wish you the best. And trust me deep down inside she is living the guilt. ...have the ruled out Lyme disease.


----------



## BashfulB

I think I can understand how you feel. Its almost as if you got cheated out of the best years of her (and your) life, and now all you get is the dregs. 

You're still a sexually healthy man, and as soon as your wife repented and turned herself around, she was rendered unable to give you the physical relationship she denied you for so long. 

You are an inspiration to me Thorburn. Very few men on this planet possess the depths of grace and mercy you have shown to your wife.


----------



## Pepper123

She is right... you deserve far better. I'm confident someday you will have that. I don't know how you maintain any sort of composure. 

The world is lucky to have you and people like you in it, and your wife is beyond lucky to have you.


----------



## Affaircare

Thorburn, 

May I make a suggestion? As you know, my Dear Hubby also has very serious medical issues, and for quite a while we also did the "we will put this off until he feels better" thing. However, what we realized is that a) this may be the new "normal" and he may never get better; and b) each day that some things are put off, is another day of resentment which is a wedge in the marriage. 

So I get it--she is VERY ill--but at this point, it doesn't look like she may get "better" any time soon. I would pretty strongly suggest that the two of you accept that she is where she is right now and that putting off your questions is damaging the marriage and your love for her. 

Now...you may be committed to your wife and your marriage (I get that kind of love) but it is not reasonable for you to continue to carry resentment and lose the more romantic kind of love. So reach some agreement together to address your questions now. Maybe agree that you can ask one question per day and she can stop after 15 minutes if the answer is an honest, full answer. This gives a little consideration to her stamina and health (her suffering), but also gives equal consideration to YOUR suffering.


----------



## Squeakr

Xenote said:


> Well thorburn it speaks volume about the kind of man you are and less about the kind of woman she is... I wish you the best. And trust me deep down inside she is living the guilt. ...have the ruled out Lyme disease.


I agree with this, but remorse is what she should be feeling and him wanting, not guilt (as that is for selfish reasons unlike remorse).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Thorburn, have they ruled out Lupus? 

Lupus - Symptoms - NHS Choices

Lupus In Color: Lupus FAQ


----------



## turnera

Many times, Matt.

Thorburn, please make sure you get a break from her now and then. Or you won't be able to continue to care for her; you'll have a nervous breakdown.


----------



## Tony55

Thorburn said:


> I find myself perplexed at all of this. part of me says she deserves it, yet I am the one holding it all together, having to take care of her, etc. It is an awful weight to carry.


I'm not a religious person, but I do believe there's something in us that far exceeds anything we can know while we're still in our physical bodies, call it a Soul for lack of a better term. You find yourself perplexed and even say, _"part of me says she deserves it_"; not only is that an interesting choice of words, but it reveals the struggle between you (the physical), and You (the Soul); it shouldn't be hard figuring out which part doesn't think she deserves it.

T


----------



## ing

Before her affair my wife started having life threatening illnesses. 
She would go though Doctors, specialists, and hospital stays and they would find nothing. She would actually be ill. 
She would sit for hours in emergency in pain. Tests, more tests and the agony of the waits between.

Then, after all avenues were exhausted and all specialists would agree that there was nothing wrong with her she would get better.
Quickly and miraculously. 

A year would pass and the cycle would start again.

The last time I refused to believe her new and crippling illness so she got better and left me.


----------



## MattMatt

Involve other specialists. Endocrinologists, for one? It might not be a neurological problem, as such.


----------



## Thorburn

They ruled out various types of lupus, tested her for several types. One type of lupus the rheumatologist said can be caused by the chemo she was taking. The tests came back negative.

An hour ago I wanted to take her to the E.R. again and she refused. Her hands are red and hot, she can't pee again, her face is red and flush, she just went to bed.

I have done so much research and so has she. Everything points to symptoms of MS, and/or stenosis of the neck.

The biggest issue is she continues to get worse. There has been no plateau. Last week was the start of her urinary problems. With each new symptom it just adds to her misery.

It does seem to be some type of central nervous system disorder. I have been around the medical field enough to know that some things never has a firm diagnosis.

She put the walker away saying she is humiliated to use it. I will encourage her to use it. We went out a little earlier and she had to hang on me the entire time. She is too unsteady with a cane. 

I will take AC's suggestion and start talking a little about my issues.

My wife did care for my feet when I came home. She gave me a pedicure and foot massage. I fell asleep, our Golden Retriever (Rudy) fell asleep with his head on my stomach, and our little mixed dog (Rosie) curled up on my chest and fell asleep. 

As far as remorse. I see it in my wife Frankly, I can bring things up about the past and she will talk about it, but I have been hesitating for months. 

As far as faking it. There is too many tests that show she has severe arthritis, as she was on chemo for this for over 6 years, and has a few joint deformities, the stenosis in her neck is real, though not as severe as they told us in February. So I do believe something is seriously wrong with her (no pun intended).


----------



## MovingAhead

I'm glad you as a couple are doing fair and better and I hope good. I hope she gets better soon. I'm sorry you are going through this.


----------



## GusPolinski

Did she ever have a spinal tap procedure done?


----------



## Thorburn

GusPolinski said:


> Did she ever have a spinal tap procedure done?


Yes, that was one of the many tests done last weekend, while she was in the hospital.


----------



## GusPolinski

Man, the not knowing really is the worst. After my wife's initial diagnosis, but prior to it being confirmed by a specialist, we were in sort of a limbo where we didn't know for sure. I remember saying to her, just before the doc (the specialist) walked into the patient room on our first visit w/ him... "You know, at this point, i almost hope that it is MS because, if it isn't, then what the hell is it?!?" Seems odd, I know, but she agreed (somewhat).


----------



## Thorburn

GusPolinski said:


> Man, the not knowing really is the worst. After my wife's initial diagnosis, but prior to it being confirmed by a specialist, we were in sort of a limbo where we didn't know for sure. I remember saying to her, just before the doc (the specialist) walked into the patient room on our first visit w/ him... "You know, at this point, i almost hope that it is MS because, if it isn't, then what the hell is it?!?" Seems odd, I know, but she agreed (somewhat).


Not odd. My wife is saying the same thing.


----------



## carolinadreams

You two have so much stress over the past few years you have to wonder if there is a connection. Have they already done a hormonal profile on her?


----------



## carmen ohio

Dear Thorburn,

Just catching up after taking a month-long break from TAM and am sorry to learn that your wife's illness has gotten worse and, as of about a month ago, was still undiagnosed.

Is she any better? If not, have you considered taking her to one of the top hospitals in the U.S. like the Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Memorial Sloan-Kettering or Johns Hopkins?

Hoping things are better for you and your family.


----------



## Thorburn

carmen ohio said:


> Dear Thorburn,
> 
> Just catching up after taking a month-long break from TAM and am sorry to learn that your wife's illness has gotten worse and, as of about a month ago, was still undiagnosed.
> 
> Is she any better? If not, have you considered taking her to one of the top hospitals in the U.S. like the Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Memorial Sloan-Kettering or Johns Hopkins?
> 
> Hoping things are better for you and your family.


A month ago she had a two week period where she was about 70% better. She actually drove to our son's house (almost a two hour drive), I drove back as her vision started to go. She dug a garden, was helping me get our other house ready to sell. She attributed this to a new med they gave her. And then "wham" she got worse then before and was in bed for days. She was really distrought as she had put her hope in the new medication. She met with some new doctors during this time. The one doctor adjusted her meds and increased one of her newer meds. She is not as bad but she is not driving and is very limited to what she can do.

We thought about John Hopkins and have a name of a doctor but was told to wait to see what her new doctors say. On her visit last week with a new doc, she order more tests. We are still going back and forth with the doctors. The neurologist says it is a auto immune issue and thus it is a rheumotologist who needs to treat this, and the rheumotologist says it is a neurological issue. At least the new rheumotologist is saying that she has been here before with this and is willing to do more tests to get to the bottom of my wife's problems.

There is a very rare condition that is hard to diagnose thus she is seeing the chief of neuro-ophthalmology at Wills-Eye in June. If you look at the symptoms of M.S. or drug induced Lupus, my wife has them, but all the tests are negative. There is a rare disorder that could be the cause so we will see what further testing reveals.

So more tests and she is scheduled with more specialists. 

I worked in the medical field since around 1992 and know how frustrating it can be when there is no clear diagnosis. 

Brad "Lights Out" Lidge called my wife on Friday and that really made her weekend. He threw out the first pitch on Saturday's game and we were invited to go, but my wife was not feeling well and we asked for a rain check the next time he is in town.

Ironically, we knew Steve Frey and his wife, Bobbie, who played for the Phillies in 1995 till the end of 1996. We would go to games and sit with Bobbie in the player's family section and I liked the fact that the games were free and we had great seats.


----------



## turnera

Brad Lidge? As a Houstonian, I am jealous!


----------



## bandit.45

I think it is cool you supporting her love of baseball....

But what has Thorburn done for Thorburn lately... on the off-hours after he takes off the Superman cape and is not trying to make the world perfect for his fWW and two sons?


----------



## Affaircare

You mean the Superman cape is DETACHABLE! *gasp*


----------



## carpenoctem

bandit.45 said:


> I think it is cool you supporting her love of baseball....
> 
> But what has Thorburn done for Thorburn lately... on the off-hours after he takes off the Superman cape and is not trying to make the world perfect for his fWW and two sons?



^^^^^

Yes. Thorburn.

It almost sounds like a Messianic Syndrome sometimes.

*Please be a little more selfish / human now and then.*

Di Te Ament!


----------



## carpenoctem

Thorburn said:


> *I loved her.*


^^

That was your 11th post on this thread.

Such a lucky woman.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> I think it is cool you supporting her love of baseball....
> 
> But what has Thorburn done for Thorburn lately... on the off-hours after he takes off the Superman cape and is not trying to make the world perfect for his fWW and two sons?


I actually kind of hit the wall. So this past weekend I started getting my wood shop in order. I have several projects I put on hold and just started piling things up, so I put a lot of things away and have my workspace back and will get working on two tables, one just needs refinishing and other one I am building from scratch with savaged American Chestnut. I basically have all the hand planeing done and just need to join the planks for the table top and figure out what type of legs I will make. I also have a bed frame for my son's queen size bed that I made out of barn beams that just need a few final touches.

I also got a jump start on my professional liscense that I had put off since 2011. I really put that on the back burner and would have have been promoted twice if I would had completed it. Just for completing it I will jump two pay grades and after six months I will more then likely get onother pay grade increase and that will be as high as I can go. My boss put off his retirement just to see me get a particular position and he is still waiting on me to get it done so he can get me into a position and retire. So I am well on my way on this. 

I also looked at some more grad programs this weekend. Right now all my tuition will be covered plus I can recieve up to $1800.00 a month tax free in income, in addition to having my tuition and books covered. I don't need another degree but I really want to use this program as I am eligible. Just have to look at the various programs, my schedule, etc. 

So, Bandit, I hear you. I have not done much if anything for me and I realized it, thus this past weekend I started looking into some things for me.


----------



## bandit.45

Ta bueno.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thorburn

Additionally, I started studying stanine scores, percentile equivalents, Deviation IQ's and formulas for calculating statistics, Holland's Hexagram, etc. etc. Even read up on inferential statistics. I have not looked at this stuff since 2011, and though it would gag most folks, I kind of like it.

I just have to get my horn out and to start playing jazz again. That is another thing I stopped. I bought a D/Eb trumpet a few years back to play classical music and started to get comfortable with it and stopped playing. By not practising my chops got weak. Two of my BILs encouraged me last year to start playing again. My claim to fame is that I played in Carnegie Hall in NYC with an ensemble once. Our lead trumpet had played a gig there with Dave Brubeck (I am still in touch with him) and our lead trombonist played with Maynard Ferguson and was the lead trombonist for Buddy Rich for a year. 

So I do have some outlets for my stress and this past weekend I at least started to move forward.


----------



## mahike

So sorry about the doctor stuff, We have done the RA doctor, the Neurologist, and now we are back to our PA. Lupus, MS, all ruled out. My wife did well with Lyrica for a short time and then crashed again.

Did not know you were into woodworking. I have built two cradles in the last few years and am now working on my first doll house for the four year old

Stay strong


----------



## hopefulgirl

The brief period of improvement for her was certainly a good sign; it suggests there IS treatment that can work. The trick is to find something that is sustainable. Hope that can be found.

It's great to hear about the long overdue attention to self-care. No caregiver can go on without recharging the batteries. There is a reason that nurses don't work 24 hour shifts 7 days a week. Compassion fatigue and exhaustion impact on the patient, so it's for your wife's sake as well as your own that you MUST do things for your own enjoyment, and, in military speak, get R&R. SO glad to see you're really starting to focus on these things now! It's essential for you both.

Hope there's better health for your wife, and a promotion and some fun in store for you.


----------



## GusPolinski

turnera said:


> Brad Lidge? As a Houstonian, I am jealous!


Not a Houstonian, but ditto!


----------



## GusPolinski

Thorburn said:


> *A month ago she had a two week period where she was about 70% better. She actually drove to our son's house (almost a two hour drive), I drove back as her vision started to go. She dug a garden, was helping me get our other house ready to sell. She attributed this to a new med they gave her. And then "wham" she got worse then before and was in bed for days. She was really distrought as she had put her hope in the new medication. She met with some new doctors during this time. The one doctor adjusted her meds and increased one of her newer meds. She is not as bad but she is not driving and is very limited to what she can do.*
> 
> We thought about John Hopkins and have a name of a doctor but was told to wait to see what her new doctors say. On her visit last week with a new doc, she order more tests. We are still going back and forth with the doctors. The neurologist says it is a auto immune issue and thus it is a rheumotologist who needs to treat this, and the rheumotologist says it is a neurological issue. At least the new rheumotologist is saying that she has been here before with this and is willing to do more tests to get to the bottom of my wife's problems.
> 
> There is a very rare condition that is hard to diagnose thus she is seeing the chief of neuro-ophthalmology at Wills-Eye in June. If you look at the symptoms of M.S. or drug induced Lupus, my wife has them, but all the tests are negative. There is a rare disorder that could be the cause so we will see what further testing reveals.
> 
> So more tests and she is scheduled with more specialists.
> 
> I worked in the medical field since around 1992 and know how frustrating it can be when there is no clear diagnosis.


Thorburn, I know that you've gotta be tired of hearing this, but HOLY CRAP this really does sound like MS. How well does Mrs. Thorburn do when it's hot outside? Any vitamin D deficiencies? Also, I know that you said that she's had a spinal tap, MRIs, etc, but has she had MRIs of both her brain AND her spine?


----------



## Thorburn

GusPolinski said:


> Thorburn, I know that you've gotta be tired of hearing this, but HOLY CRAP this really does sound like MS. How well does Mrs. Thorburn do when it's hot outside? Any vitamin D deficiencies? Also, I know that you said that she's had a spinal tap, MRIs, etc, but has she had MRIs of both her brain AND her spine?


All of that and more. We have several friends who went through much of this with MS, one was told by her doctor and husband that she was nuts. Then M.S. showed up where it was negative in the past tests after years of tests.

Doctors want to see physical evidence for MS. So far nothing. So far it has not been hot this year. Last summer she needed the AC running all the time.

It is ironic, when we built our other house in 1997, two of our neighbors who built their homes as well at that time, now the two wives both have M.S. They are a few years younger then my wife but it is very ironic.


----------



## GusPolinski

Thorburn said:


> It is ironic, when we built our other house in 1997, two of our neighbors who built their homes as well at that time, now the two wives both have M.S. They are a few years younger then my wife but it is very ironic.


Damn. That is freaking scary.


----------



## MattMatt

Thorburn said:


> All of that and more. We have several friends who went through much of this with MS, one was told by her doctor and husband that she was nuts. Then M.S. showed up where it was negative in the past tests after years of tests.
> 
> Doctors want to see physical evidence for MS. So far nothing. So far it has not been hot this year. Last summer she needed the AC running all the time.
> 
> It is ironic, when we built our other house in 1997, two of our neighbors who built their homes as well at that time, now the two wives both have M.S. They are a few years younger then my wife but it is very ironic.


Ironic? Maybe not. There might be an organic cause for the conditions suffered by all three wives. 

Of course, it could be a coincidence, but I'm not strong on coincidences, to be honest.

Was there a common chemical you all used? A ground contaminant, for example?

Have you mentioned this to the doctors?


----------



## vi_bride04

*Re: Re: I am back and it gets worse*



MattMatt said:


> Ironic? Maybe not. There might be an organic cause for the conditions suffered by all three wives.
> 
> Of course, it could be a coincidence, but I'm not strong on coincidences, to be honest.
> 
> Was there a common chemical you all used? A ground contaminant, for example?
> 
> Have you mentioned this to the doctors?


Exactly. There are plenty of chemicals in our environment that have been used for decades that are just starting to be discovered how bad they really are. 

Live near any farms that sprayed pesticides?


----------



## MattMatt

Just spotted this link Wood-Preserving Chemicals, Multiple Sclerosis, And Neuropsychological Function


----------



## Machiavelli

Thorburn,

There may or may not be grain and dairy issues behind some or all MS. Here's a fairly updated discussion on possible dietary issues.


----------



## GusPolinski

Machiavelli said:


> Thorburn,
> 
> There may or may not be grain and dairy issues behind some or all MS. Here's a fairly updated discussion on possible dietary issues.


Mrs. Gus and I have given this notion quite a bit of thought, and we've even discussed it w/ her neuro. There seems to be a general consensus within the medical community that a diet that is low in -- or, better yet, altogether eliminates -- foods of an inflammatory nature (wheat and dairy chief among them) is just... well, better all around.

Either way, Mrs. Gus feels MUCH better when she cuts back on the grains. She has _at least_ a sensitivity to gluten and seemed to do much better when we made attempts at a more "paleo" diet a while back. I've been trying to convince her to get back to this.


----------



## carpenoctem

Thorburn:

This might sound silly, but does she regularly use artificial sweeteners? Especially, *aspartame?*

Aspartame, in many people, is known to create almost all symptoms of MS. Though they say it is temporary, and will vanish once usage is stopped.

I had made this mistake myself (too much aspartame intake). Even after stopping it, my symptoms did not go away completely (three years now).


N.B:
FDA was continuously denying aspartame approval for 13(?) years. Donald Rumsfeld, when he became defense secretary, influence-peddled and pushed it through FDA (he was a former director of the company that manufactured it). Now, worldwide, millions suffer from its negative effects, mostly unbeknownst of the cause.

That’s the story as I recollect.


----------



## Chuck71

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> Thorburn:
> 
> This might sound silly, but does she regularly use artificial sweeteners? Especially, *aspartame?*
> 
> Aspartame, in many people, is known to create almost all symptoms of MS. Though they say it is temporary, and will vanish once usage is stopped.
> 
> I had made this mistake myself (too much aspartame intake). Even after stopping it, my symptoms did not go away completely (three years now).
> 
> 
> N.B:
> FDA was continuously denying aspartame approval for 13(?) years. Donald Rumsfeld, when he became defense secretary, influence-peddled and pushed it through FDA (he was a former director of the company that manufactured it). Now, worldwide, millions suffer from its negative effects, mostly unbeknownst of the cause.
> 
> That’s the story as I recollect.


two of my professors in grad school are in this situation, they used the artificial sweeteners twenty times a day. neither are nowhere near 100% recovered


----------



## Chaparral

I agree with the possibility this is a chemical problem. It may also be an alergy problem has she been tested? Allergys can develope at any point in life.

As an example, many people develope a reaction to things they have been around all their lives. In the home building business, I occasionally use aluminum ladders. I white developed irritated white spots on my shins. The dermatolgists had no idea what caused them. I later figured it out by them being one foot up and seeing grey patches there after using a ladder in the summertime. Evidently, people can get a reaction from aluminum compounds included in things like deoderant.

I recently saw an article noting the increase in heavy metal allergies.


----------



## Thorburn

The land that we built our house on was an old city dump. It was 11 acres inside the city limits that was pasture land for a small daily farm. I remember the barn. Can't say when the farm was sold but the barn was vacant for many years and then remodeled into a business and has since been torn down and replaced with a church. I suspect the farm and the cows were gone by the 70's.

When we were having our foundation dug we found out it was an old city dump site. Our house is built on a double foundation. We dug down till we hit virgin soil. If you stand on the basement floor, there is 10 courses of 12 inch block that goes down to the footers and that was all filled in with dirt. So the footers for the house are about 12 feet below the basement floor.

I was there for the construction and did a lot of the work myself. When they were excavating for the footers there was lricks, block, belgium block, asphalt, terra cotta sewer pipe, concrete and a few cans of lead paint. I was told that the site was used for the sewer works to dump some of the stuff they dug up when they repaired sewer lines in the city streets. Can't say how long ago. 

Never had the soil tested. The next door neighbor had the same issue as us with having to dig down. But the other neighbor did not. It seemed to me at the time that the dump site incorporated our propertay and the neighbors lot and that was it. I suspect that the city dumped stuff there for a short period of time. I would estimate the dump site to be no larger then about 100 feet by 100 feet.

I guess with the various chemicals that could have been dumped in there as well that I should get it tested. 

My wife does not eat artificial sweetners.

I do have a clients who's wife eliminated all grain based upon her doctor's recommendation and we can try that.

My wife has been making her own bread, rich in whole grains, I use to make the bread all the time. 

She has been making vegatible smoothies and fruit smoothies with a Nutra bullet her brother sent her. She has eliminated quite a bit of stuff in her diet but has increased whole grains and beans. She says this has helped her. She does not eat alot of dairy.

Keep in mind that my wife has psoriatic arthritis which is an anti-immune disease. Was on chemo for over 6 years for this. She stopped the chemo a few months ago as her doctor was concerned about drug induced lupus. They are testing her for this. Apparently the test for this is very specific. They don't think she has it but they want to rule it out. Psoriatic arthritis and rheumatoid arthritis are very similar and treatment is basically the same, but my wife's doctors looked at my wife's symptoms and based upon my research they are correct. 

So my wife has changed her diet fairly radically. 

We will look at the grain issue as I have heard about this as well. I do think though that it is all anti-immune related. 

Also with the stenosis of the cervical spine due to arthritis that just adds to it all.


----------



## convert

Thorburn, I hope your wife knows how lucky she is to have you
most or a lot of BS would been out the door when she was cheating, then where would she be?
the POSOM would not be taking care of her

does she tell you everyday that she is glad you stayed?


----------



## Machiavelli

Cutting out the grains can take a while to really take effect. It took so long, I didn't even notice my rheumatism had gone away until I had a doctor visit about 9 months afterward. I have no idea when it went away, but I was shocked to realize it was gone. Grains impact people in different ways.

Here's a curse you may recognize: "...and thou shalt eat the herb of the field..."


----------



## Chaparral

Thorburn said:


> The land that we built our house on was an old city dump. It was 11 acres inside the city limits that was pasture land for a small daily farm. I remember the barn. Can't say when the farm was sold but the barn was vacant for many years and then remodeled into a business and has since been torn down and replaced with a church. I suspect the farm and the cows were gone by the 70's.
> 
> When we were having our foundation dug we found out it was an old city dump site. Our house is built on a double foundation. We dug down till we hit virgin soil. If you stand on the basement floor, there is 10 courses of 12 inch block that goes down to the footers and that was all filled in with dirt. So the footers for the house are about 12 feet below the basement floor.
> 
> I was there for the construction and did a lot of the work myself. When they were excavating for the footers there was lricks, block, belgium block, asphalt, terra cotta sewer pipe, concrete and a few cans of lead paint. I was told that the site was used for the sewer works to dump some of the stuff they dug up when they repaired sewer lines in the city streets. Can't say how long ago.
> 
> Never had the soil tested. The next door neighbor had the same issue as us with having to dig down. But the other neighbor did not. It seemed to me at the time that the dump site incorporated our propertay and the neighbors lot and that was it. I suspect that the city dumped stuff there for a short period of time. I would estimate the dump site to be no larger then about 100 feet by 100 feet.
> 
> I guess with the various chemicals that could have been dumped in there as well that I should get it tested.
> 
> My wife does not eat artificial sweetners.
> 
> I do have a clients who's wife eliminated all grain based upon her doctor's recommendation and we can try that.
> 
> My wife has been making her own bread, rich in whole grains, I use to make the bread all the time.
> 
> She has been making vegatible smoothies and fruit smoothies with a Nutra bullet her brother sent her. She has eliminated quite a bit of stuff in her diet but has increased whole grains and beans. She says this has helped her. She does not eat alot of dairy.
> 
> Keep in mind that my wife has psoriatic arthritis which is an anti-immune disease. Was on chemo for over 6 years for this. She stopped the chemo a few months ago as her doctor was concerned about drug induced lupus. They are testing her for this. Apparently the test for this is very specific. They don't think she has it but they want to rule it out. Psoriatic arthritis and rheumatoid arthritis are very similar and treatment is basically the same, but my wife's doctors looked at my wife's symptoms and based upon my research they are correct.
> 
> So my wife has changed her diet fairly radically.
> 
> We will look at the grain issue as I have heard about this as well. I do think though that it is all anti-immune related.
> 
> Also with the stenosis of the cervical spine due to arthritis that just adds to it all.


Allergies are also auto immune problems. Lots of people develope corn, wheat, and other alergies with various types of symptoms.

What does the medicine that helped for awhile specificaly target?


----------



## Chaparral

Have you checked the symptoms of lead poisoning and other heavymetals?


----------



## Lon

She underwent chemo treatments for 6 years? How much have you researched into that being a cause of her symptoms/condition?


----------



## Thorburn

Chaparral said:


> Allergies are also auto immune problems. Lots of people develope corn, wheat, and other alergies with various types of symptoms.
> 
> What does the medicine that helped for awhile specificaly target?


It is a steroid. But it is a mask. Her doctor yesterday stated that if her other doctor does not increase it she will. She said it is a one of those things that are tricky, you get results from steroids but they can damage your bones, etc. So you weigh the risks verses the relief.

She also changed her medication so my wife has to wean off one and then start another new one to see if she gets relief from that and if that does not work then she will increase the steroids.

She also stated that she may try botox injections but wants to see if the new medication is effective.

They give a person 31 botox injections, basically from the forehead, to the back of the head and neck and then a few in the shoulders. It is expensive and insurance companies often times will not pay for this, but they have found that when these other medications do not work that botox injections do.


----------



## Thorburn

Chaparral said:


> Have you checked the symptoms of lead poisoning and other heavymetals?


All ruled out. We even looked at mercury as a possibility but the tests are negative.


----------



## Thorburn

Lon said:


> She underwent chemo treatments for 6 years? How much have you researched into that being a cause of her symptoms/condition?


Yes. Her rheumotolgist took her off of it months ago. I was along with my wife on that visit and the doctor looked shocked when my wife was describing her symptoms. My wife asked her what is the matter? The doctor said, I am taking you off the chemo, as there is a possibility of drug induced lupus and you have the symptoms and I don't want to risk it. She said there are tests to tell us if this is the case and she stated that she did not think this is the case but to be safe she ended that medication.

So far the tests do not show drug induced lupus. And yes the drug can cause some of the symptoms she is having.

Her new rheumotologist agreed with the former one my wife was seeing, and does not want to start chemo at this point. 

My wife was seeing her former rheumotologist for several years and on her last visit a few weeks ago she told my wife that her symptoms are beyond her scope of practise, and my wife stated that she was going to start seeing a new one the following week, so it was a very appropriate visit.

The new rheumotologist stated that she is willing to explore all possibilities at this time and scheduled a host of more tests to include a repeat of some of the past ones. My wife had another 13 vials of blood taken last evening. I think this was the least amount since she started having blood tests.

Her Neurologist's visit yesterday revealed that my wife may very well have a very rare condition but only time will tell.

The doctor saw my wife's newest symptom, red and warm hands and feet and talked a little about it. I forget what she called it. And my wife said that her other foot has started to go numb and that is new.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Hey T - Are any blood test results back yet?

Hoping there might be some new answers.

In any event, hope you are continuing to take time out for pursuing your interests. In my own caregiving experiences, I felt most exhausted and depleted when I neglected to inject fun and time for myself into my life (doing something regularly, even if short periods of time, was best). Please be good to you; it benefits you, and it will help you to be a better caregiver because you'll be refreshed and your batteries will be recharged.


----------



## farsidejunky

Hey brother. Just checking in on you. I hope you have found some peace as of late.


----------



## Thorburn

farsidejunky said:


> Hey brother. Just checking in on you. I hope you have found some peace as of late.


My wife continues to go to medical appointments. Yesterday she had over 4 hours of tests and has to have more MRI's done to specifically target one area of the brain. The tests yesterday resulted in having to schedule more appointments with other specialists. Her case is puzzling to the various doctors. At least they all have access to her records and several of the specialists are in contact with one another, consulting one another, trying to get to the bottom of her condition. She has had good days where she can work in the garden and other days she is bed ridden. She has not driven a car in weeks.

I am taking a little over a week off work to get our other house on the market. Have various projects going on with our current house.

Mentally, I am hanging in there at the present but some days are fairly rough.


----------



## farsidejunky

Man. Please remember to celebrate the good days she has. If it will help, please keep coming here to vent. I will keep your family in my prayers. You continue to amaze me with your devotion.


----------



## Thorburn

Took some time off work to get our other house on the market, our youngest son has been living there. Met with a realtor, had a plan to get it on the market by the beginning of August and then my youngest son decided he wants to buy it and gave me an offer. He is approved for a mortgage and we don't need a realtor. A win win.

My wife continues to see more specialists and more tests. She has been diagnosed with Meniere's but that is only one of her problems. She may have her hearing eliminated (chemically) in her left ear, it will be irreversable. The problem is that she can get the same condition in her right ear and will then possibly be totally deaf.

She as of last week has basically lost her sense of taste.

It seems like every two weeks or so, she develops another symptom that just adds to her misery.

She has thoughts that God is punishing her for what she did to me and our family.

All I can say is my wife continues to get worse and continues to see more specialists.

I can honestly say that it is very difficult to have compassion on my wife after what she has done. Yet I spent one day of my vacation sitting in doctor's offices from 7:30 A.M. till after 6:30 P.M., and four other days sitting for several hours as she saw more doctors or had more tests.

At this point she can't drive and is becoming more and more emotional. 

She has lost 70% of her hearing in her left ear and may be totally deaf in that ear soon. She is losing her sense of taste. She is very unbalanced. Can't drive. Can't work. Has a constant headache. Has double vision. Believe it or not, she has double vision in just her left eye. I asked her neuro-opthomologist about this. He explained it. Makes no sense that a person can have double vision out of one eye, yet it is not uncommon. She has trouble urinating. And I can go on and on.

I have enough things to keep me busy that I enjoy doing and it does offer a distraction, but this is emotionally draining at times.


----------



## that_girl

GusPolinski said:


> Damn. That is freaking scary.


More than scary, it could be environmental.

I worked at the YMCA in college and my boss had two children BOTH with leukemia. There were 5 other children in their neighborhood with leukemia. I know they were filing a suit but I never followed up.


----------



## farsidejunky

Thorburn:

You are a saint. I will continue to pray for serenity for you and your family.


----------



## that_girl

You are a very giving man, Thor.

Late last year, while separated (H had moved out in March), he got very ill with some intestinal/liver issues. I had to pick him up at his apartment and take him to the ER and then it was months of no answers (still no answers just a lot of pain) and I remember when he said he had to go to the ER, my first thought was DAMMIT! He's going to have to move home!

I think when we love someone, we accept them as they are despite the crap they put us through.

When my dad got cancer, I was there for him. He abandoned me when I was 4 and got cancer when I was 29. I chose to be there. I don't know why--- the man caused my life great pain--- but I'm glad I did.

There is a reason for everything we do and have put in our path. It is not unnoticed and you are not a martyr. 

I do see, from my own beliefs on things, that as a cheater she was very much into her senses...how she felt, heard, etc etc....and now those senses are leaving her.

Karma? Not really. Karma is more complext. But is it Negative energy coming back to rest? Yes.

Blessings to you.


----------



## bandit.45

that_girl said:


> Karma? Not really. Karma is more complext. But is it Negative energy coming back to rest? Yes.
> 
> Blessings to you.


The Great Circle of Dumbassedness went full around and squashed her.


----------



## Openminded

I continue to hope there will be answers and that you find peace, Thorburn. You are a far better person than I am and I mean that. You travel a very hard road.


----------



## Ripper

Had to look up Meniere's disease. While reading, came across this gem:

_"Other conditions can present themselves with Ménière's-like symptoms, such as syphilis" Haybach, pg. 55.
_
You can't make this sh*t up. I realize its already been ruled out, just seems fitting that its one of the first sentences in a synopsis about a illness a wayward has been inflicted with.

Wishing you best, OP. You are a stronger and far more forgiving man than I.


----------



## illwill

You no saint, just a man somehow still in love, with a woman who does not deserve you.

I truly hope she understands the gift God gave her by marrying you.

Best wishes.


----------



## hopefulgirl

I'm glad that there's at least good news as far as the other house goes. You certainly deserve a "win-win" in SOME aspect of your life!

As for your wife's condition and your caregiving role, it is amazing that you have found the strength to do this. She didn't honor her marriage vows, but it's obvious that you truly meant yours when you spoke them. In spite of her having broken the contract, you still honor your vows. You could choose to walk away. After what she did and the burden you now have, it's a choice that would be easy to understand.

It's good that you have some activities/distractions. Do you have anyone to turn to for support, spiritual or otherwise? I know others turn to you, but do you have someone to turn to? Given how emotionally draining this is, it might help to have a caregivers support group or counselor who specializes in caregiving issues, or a minister to speak with occasionally about the burden you're currently dealing with - it's come to a pretty overwhelming point when your "vacation" is spent largely in medical facility waiting rooms.

You're one of kind, T. A very special man indeed.


----------



## illwill

Bump.


----------



## Chaparral

I think the environmental aspect should not be over looked.

I am in the homebuilding business. The products used in homes now are from all over the world, from Chile to China. My favorite dog was poisoned from a Chinese product placed in an American made dog biscuit..

Paint, carpet, plastic, wood, insulation, adhesive, etc. all out gas toxins into the home. Federal regulations now demand even tighter houses with little air exchange with outside air to rid the home of pollutants.

I think you should try having your wife live some where else for a while to see if she improves.


----------



## turnera

A family I know lost a son to a rare cancer due to toxic chemicals in the neighborhood and the second child has mental issues. They raized the entire neighborhood and bought out all the homeowners. It's a Superfund site now.


----------



## Thorburn

Thought I would give an update as I have not been on TAM for a while.

My wife's health condition has been up and down. I had to take her to the E.R. this past Friday. Her family doctor told her to go as they thought she was having heart issues. Her heart is fine, her potassium was low and it was causing fatique. She has developed peripheral neuropathy and we don't know the cause of this. She got a hearing aide and that is helping her with her Meniere's.

I had a swallowing issues that started when I was in Iraq. I have had many tests done since 2009. Finally I had a test done a little over a month ago that finally identified my condition. It is a long story but they sent me drugs without explaining which ones to take and which ones to discontinue. I ended up in the E.R. three times, one of those times I came very close to having a heart attack due to the interactions of the medications and recieiving no clear instructions. 

After my near death experience the other drug they put me on sent me to the land of confusion and once again I went to the E.R. They now have it straightened out.

Triggers: I have had not had that many in the past several months until two weeks ago and yesterday. The first one had to do with my wife going to an Eagles game with her brother and nephew. My wife became an Eagles fan out of the blue in the summer of 2011, due to the XOM being an Eagle's fan. I found it strange then and questioned her about it and she said she was always an Eagles fan. I remember telling her that in over 25 years of marriage this is the first time in our marriage that you ever had interest in football. Little did I know. My wife did approach me about going to the game with her brother and said she knows this might trigger me and that she would not go if it caused distress. I consented but for the first time in many many months I checked out the XOM's and his wife's FB page just to make sure he was not going to the game. The XOM and his family was at the beach.

The other trigger was yesterday. I had taken my wife's GPS after D-day and bought her a new one later. I found the GPS the other day and actually forgot why I took it and plugged it in to see if it still worked. I went to put in an address to test it and all the addresses from her cheating time came up. I am still dealing with that crap from yesterday.

Though I do not bring up the past much due to my wife's illness, if I do ask a question my wife will answer without hesitation.

I am not sure why she has gotten so ill after coming clean and repenting. I have periodically checked on things and she has been really clean.

She wants to visit with her middle sister and have her down to our house. I have stated that she can do this without me and if she comes to our house, which she has never seen that I will not be around. My wife says she wnats me to be part of this and I just can't be around her middle sister and I think I will never get over what she did.

My wife has used the widow pitch that since this sister is a widow that we are obigated to help her. I said, she has a millionaire brother and a son-in-law who makes tons of money. I told her that I feel no obligation to help her and that in fact I want nothing to do with her.

My wife has left this alone.


----------



## Nostromo

Thorburn said:


> She wants to visit with her middle sister and have her down to our house. I have stated that she can do this without me and if she comes to our house, which she has never seen that I will not be around. My wife says she wnats me to be part of this and I just can't be around her middle sister and I think I will never get over what she did.
> 
> My wife has used the widow pitch that since this sister is a widow that we are obigated to help her. I said, she has a millionaire brother and a son-in-law who makes tons of money. I told her that I feel no obligation to help her and that in fact I want nothing to do with her.
> 
> My wife has left this alone.


I have read much of your story and I wanted to tell you that I believe you have handled yourself better than most would through all of this and that you should be commended for that. As to the situation with your sister in law, I don't believe there's anything in the Word of God that would compel you to be around people who do nothing but deceive and harm your family. Has your sister in law repented and changed as your wife has? If not than I would argue that your responsibility as your families 'spiritual head' amongst other things is to protect your wife and kids from those individuals (relative or not) who seek to stir up chaos and splinter your marriage even further. Which from the outside looking in, seems like that's the last thing you need right now. This I believe is scripturally your primary duty as a husband and father and it supersedes any moral 'obligation' to your sister in law that your wife may feel.


----------



## Openminded

Shaking my head. Your wife has nerve to push you about having her sister visit. That's all I'm going to say. I'm forcing my fingers off the keyboard now. Reluctantly.


----------



## GusPolinski

Just wondering... if the sister were to apologize to you for her transgressions (she knew about and helped your wife conceal her affairs, correct?), would that sway you at all?


----------



## Chaparral

I sure hope your luck has turned around. Since she was able to go to a football game, does that mean she has made some physical improvement?

Has any doctor wondered if her physical problems are caused by guilt?


----------



## DoveEnigma13

I'm going to pitch in on that last one Gus.

I can somewhat forgive my wife's infidelity, because I have to. Have to remain civil for my daughter.

Her friends and associates that helped conceal, egg on, etc. They have nothing coming and never will.

My wife's deceit she actually was gaining something, maybe not good in the long run, but you know. Those other people? They did everything and egged her on or helped conceal it just for spite. Those are the type of people I hope die in a car fire.


----------



## GusPolinski

DoveEnigma13 said:


> I'm going to pitch in on that last one Gus.
> 
> I can somewhat forgive my wife's infidelity, because I have to. Have to remain civil for my daughter.
> 
> Her friends and associates that helped conceal, egg on, etc. They have nothing coming and never will.
> 
> My wife's deceit she actually was gaining something, maybe not good in the long run, but you know. Those other people? They did everything and egged her on or helped conceal it just for spite. Those are the type of people I hope die in a car fire.


Believe me... I understand. I didn't mean to imply that Thorburn _should_ forgive her. I mean... Hell, I probably wouldn't.

I asked the question only because Thorburn has displayed an *AMAZING* capacity for forgiveness, and I was simply curious as to whether or not he'd be able to forgive her if she were to offer a sincere apology for her complicity in the near demise of his marriage. That's it.


----------



## turnera

Thorburn said:


> She wants to visit with her middle sister and have her down to our house. I have stated that she can do this without me and if she comes to our house, which she has never seen that I will not be around. My wife says she wnats me to be part of this and I just can't be around her middle sister and I think I will never get over what she did.
> 
> My wife has used the widow pitch that since this sister is a widow that we are obigated to help her. I said, she has a millionaire brother and a son-in-law who makes tons of money. I told her that I feel no obligation to help her and that in fact I want nothing to do with her.
> 
> My wife has left this alone.


As well she should! Thank you, Thor, for standing your ground on this. It will bear out in the end, in terms of your well being.


----------



## happyman64

Thorburn

I think of you often and am glad that you are doing ok.

Don't let those VA docs kill you by overmedicating you!

Keep taking it one day at a time.

HM


----------



## Thorburn

GusPolinski said:


> Just wondering... if the sister were to apologize to you for her transgressions (she knew about and helped your wife conceal her affairs, correct?), would that sway you at all?


If my SIL was "normal" an apology would go a long way in making up for the past.

My SIL had a "Christian" reawakening, renewal or whatever after her husband was diagnosed with terminal cancer around October 2009, shortly after I came back from Iraq.

When I left for training for my Iraq mission, the very day I left, my wife and her sister had an argument. To this day their stories don't jive as to what the argument was about. They were close up to this point and my BIL considered me his best friend. I supported my wife from a distance as I was at Ft. Polk, LA training. Up till the day I left we would spend quite a bit of time with her sister and BIL, at their house, them at ours, the four of us going out etc. My BIL was a huge NASCAR fan, I don't care for it but I would pretend I did and we went to a race and I would watch NASCAR with him quite often because I just like being around him.

When I came home from Iraq, my wife picked me up at Ft. Dix, and as we were leaving the base I told my wife I had NASCAR tickets and an American flag I flew in Iraq for our BIL and wanted to make peace with him. My wife told me basically no. Then a short time later he got diagnosed with terminal cancer. From this time till the day he died in April 2012 I saw him briefly twice and we never made up. I was not involved in the split up but I supported my wife.

My wife went to the funeral and she told me that she needs to do this on her own to "make up" with her family. My wife was exposed for cheating and her family was not very receptive of her up to this time. My wife was still cheating at this time.

I did not feel comfortable with my wife doing this on her own and felt that I should be part of the "reconciliation" with her sister but was left out.

I then got a VAR as things did not seem right. I recorded hours of her with her sister over a period of time.

Keep in mind that my SIL had a "Christian" reawakening in 2009 due to her husband's cancer, got involved in church etc.

So "after" my SIL's reawakening in late 2009, she did nothing to make up with my wife, until the day of my BIL's funeral. My wife was thrilled to be reunited with her sister. My wife kept telling me that it will take time for her sister to make up with me. I would tell my wife, "What did I do?" I had nothing to do with their fight, I did not act mean to my SIL or BIL. I said that this is weird that her SIL seems to be holding a grudge against me for no reason. Well I found out why. On the recording from the VAR over a period of time, I had a VAR in my wife's car when she would visit with her sister. The recording revealed that my SIL was laughing about my wife's affair. She blamed me for my wife's affair and supported my wife though at the time she thought my wife had stopped seeing the XOM. My wife told me that her sister blasted her about her affair, yet the recording revealed that her sister never told her it was wrong and in fact said she understands why my wife cheated. My SIL blamed me for the two of them breaking up when I left for Iraq, yet I never heard why. 

When my wife would go visit her sister she would be out till 1 A.M. My wife lied about this. They would go to a bar, yet my wife would tell me that they would sit in her car, parked in her sister's driveway and cry for hours about the death of their mother and my BIL. Not once in all the recordings did I hear them cry, nor were they sitting in the driveway chatting. There would be gaps of hours where they were not in the car. My wife would tell me that they went to Walmart and that due to my SIL's arthritis that it would take her 1/2 hour to walk from the car to the store and the same amount of time for her to walk back to the car. It was all BS. They were spending time at bars. Not once did they mention their mother's death or my BIL's death. 

My wife told me that she hardly talked when they were together and would only answer her sister's questions briefly. In all the recordings, my wife was non-stop complaining about me and talking about her affair and hardly stopped talking to take a breath. To hear what my wife told me took place with her sister and then to hear the recordings was just unreal.

My SIL never once told my wife that she was wrong. Not once prayed with her. Not once told her to get right with God.

Then fast forward to April 2013.

My SIL supported me at first. When my wife took off after D-day she went to her sister's house. My SIL told her she could stay one night and told her brother's and other sister that my wife was dressed like a sllut and was told by all her family to not help my wife. So my wife stayed one night and was not welcomed there and she came home.

My SIL and I had some good conversations at this time then she switched. One week she told me everything about her past, cheating in 1999 and my wife and her were doing this together. Then the following week she is yelling at me saying I am lying and that she never told me anything about her past. It was as if I was talking to two different people. A few weeks later she is praying with me giving me support then the next week she is all whacked out again, calling me a liar, etc. And this went on like this for a while until I was told by her brothers that she is a whack job and that I should not talk to her. I found out that she was talking to my wife during this time supporting her.

So in 1999 my SIL was cheating on her husband, having internet sex on the same site my wife was on and doing the cyber sex thing with the same men as my wife. I informed my BIL at that time once I found out and he caught her in the act on her computer. My SIL supported my wife in cheating with a local man at that time. 

My SIL basically told me all this in April 2013 during one of our conversations. Then the next time I talked to her the following week my SIL is yelling at me saying I made all this up and that she never did anything like that in her life. I remember telling my SIL, what is wrong with you? I said you told me everything last week and now you are saying I am making it all up.


I could say quite a bit more, but you all get the picture.

When my wife has asked over the last year that she feels it is time for her to start visiting her sister again, I have said over and over again, "You can go visit your sister at any time, but I won't go with you nor will I be around if you invite her to our home". 

I told my wife that her sister is evil. My wife quietly said that her sister has changed. I told my wife, "Really"? Like when she repented and changed in 1999 when "She came back to the Lord", or in 2009 "When Christ became everything to her". I told my wife, I forgive your sister but I will be dammned if I will ever allow her back into my life. I said she has not changed and was always a bad influence on her.

As was mentioned by another poster, I agree that a person can be forgiven (my SIL) but I have no obligation to allow her back into my life.

I don't trust her. I have no idea what my wife and her talk about. I have had seen some of their texts back and forth but they are brief and typically talking about their health issues.

There was a time from about 2012 till early 2013 that I could always tell when my wife talked to my SIL, my wife would act different for quite a while. I remember telling my wife one day in 2012 after I came home from work that she must have just talked to her sister. My wife said "Why do say that". I said you are acting weird and you always act weird after you talk to her. I believe that those phone calls were attacks on me, complaining about me etc, and her sister was the only one who would listen and more then likely fed her negativity and projected that negativity on me when I was around her and she simply could not turn it off.

Around the end of April 2013 after my wife repented and came clean I told her that if she ever put her family ahead of me like she did for our entire marriage I will end the marriage. I meant it then and I have not changed my mind. And it goes double for her middle sister. 

I don't care if she wants to go visit her sister, but it will be without me.


----------



## farsidejunky

A great example of a non - negotiable boundary, brother. I continue to admire you. Keep the faith.


----------



## GusPolinski

Damn. Forget I even mentioned it.


----------



## Chuck71

Thorburn, on about any other thread, your description would utterly

shock me. Sadly...on your thread and you W, it doesn't.


----------



## bandit.45

Your W is slipping back into old habits. She knows her sister is no good....


Here we go.


----------



## Chaparral

bandit.45 said:


> Your W is slipping back into old habits. She knows her sister is no good....
> 
> 
> Here we go.


Yeah after what you just said, I would not be ready to see them reconnect.

Your vars need new batteries.


----------



## Chaparral

BTW,I have sent people looking for you when I thought you could help them with your professional experience. Hope you don't mind.

You have helped many folks here and I for one thank you. 

Prayers for you 

Chap


----------



## GusPolinski

Thorburn! How fare thee, good sir?


----------



## vi_bride04

Any updates?


----------



## ConanHub

This is soo wrong in soo many levels.......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imjustwatching

ConanHub said:


> This is soo wrong in soo many levels.......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My reaction exactly!!


----------



## Chuck71

if Thorburn goes quiet does that mean a schitstorm is on the horizon?


----------



## MattMatt

Hope everything is OK.


----------



## wmn1

Thorburn said:


> If my SIL was "normal" an apology would go a long way in making up for the past.
> 
> My SIL had a "Christian" reawakening, renewal or whatever after her husband was diagnosed with terminal cancer around October 2009, shortly after I came back from Iraq.
> 
> When I left for training for my Iraq mission, the very day I left, my wife and her sister had an argument. To this day their stories don't jive as to what the argument was about. They were close up to this point and my BIL considered me his best friend. I supported my wife from a distance as I was at Ft. Polk, LA training. Up till the day I left we would spend quite a bit of time with her sister and BIL, at their house, them at ours, the four of us going out etc. My BIL was a huge NASCAR fan, I don't care for it but I would pretend I did and we went to a race and I would watch NASCAR with him quite often because I just like being around him.
> 
> When I came home from Iraq, my wife picked me up at Ft. Dix, and as we were leaving the base I told my wife I had NASCAR tickets and an American flag I flew in Iraq for our BIL and wanted to make peace with him. My wife told me basically no. Then a short time later he got diagnosed with terminal cancer. From this time till the day he died in April 2012 I saw him briefly twice and we never made up. I was not involved in the split up but I supported my wife.
> 
> My wife went to the funeral and she told me that she needs to do this on her own to "make up" with her family. My wife was exposed for cheating and her family was not very receptive of her up to this time. My wife was still cheating at this time.
> 
> I did not feel comfortable with my wife doing this on her own and felt that I should be part of the "reconciliation" with her sister but was left out.
> 
> I then got a VAR as things did not seem right. I recorded hours of her with her sister over a period of time.
> 
> Keep in mind that my SIL had a "Christian" reawakening in 2009 due to her husband's cancer, got involved in church etc.
> 
> So "after" my SIL's reawakening in late 2009, she did nothing to make up with my wife, until the day of my BIL's funeral. My wife was thrilled to be reunited with her sister. My wife kept telling me that it will take time for her sister to make up with me. I would tell my wife, "What did I do?"  I had nothing to do with their fight, I did not act mean to my SIL or BIL. I said that this is weird that her SIL seems to be holding a grudge against me for no reason. Well I found out why. On the recording from the VAR over a period of time, I had a VAR in my wife's car when she would visit with her sister. The recording revealed that my SIL was laughing about my wife's affair. She blamed me for my wife's affair and supported my wife though at the time she thought my wife had stopped seeing the XOM. My wife told me that her sister blasted her about her affair, yet the recording revealed that her sister never told her it was wrong and in fact said she understands why my wife cheated. My SIL blamed me for the two of them breaking up when I left for Iraq, yet I never heard why.
> 
> When my wife would go visit her sister she would be out till 1 A.M. My wife lied about this. They would go to a bar, yet my wife would tell me that they would sit in her car, parked in her sister's driveway and cry for hours about the death of their mother and my BIL. Not once in all the recordings did I hear them cry, nor were they sitting in the driveway chatting. There would be gaps of hours where they were not in the car. My wife would tell me that they went to Walmart and that due to my SIL's arthritis that it would take her 1/2 hour to walk from the car to the store and the same amount of time for her to walk back to the car. It was all BS. They were spending time at bars. Not once did they mention their mother's death or my BIL's death.
> 
> My wife told me that she hardly talked when they were together and would only answer her sister's questions briefly. In all the recordings, my wife was non-stop complaining about me and talking about her affair and hardly stopped talking to take a breath. To hear what my wife told me took place with her sister and then to hear the recordings was just unreal.
> 
> My SIL never once told my wife that she was wrong. Not once prayed with her. Not once told her to get right with God.
> 
> Then fast forward to April 2013.
> 
> My SIL supported me at first. When my wife took off after D-day she went to her sister's house. My SIL told her she could stay one night and told her brother's and other sister that my wife was dressed like a sllut and was told by all her family to not help my wife. So my wife stayed one night and was not welcomed there and she came home.
> 
> My SIL and I had some good conversations at this time then she switched. One week she told me everything about her past, cheating in 1999 and my wife and her were doing this together. Then the following week she is yelling at me saying I am lying and that she never told me anything about her past. It was as if I was talking to two different people. A few weeks later she is praying with me giving me support then the next week she is all whacked out again, calling me a liar, etc. And this went on like this for a while until I was told by her brothers that she is a whack job and that I should not talk to her. I found out that she was talking to my wife during this time supporting her.
> 
> So in 1999 my SIL was cheating on her husband, having internet sex on the same site my wife was on and doing the cyber sex thing with the same men as my wife. I informed my BIL at that time once I found out and he caught her in the act on her computer. My SIL supported my wife in cheating with a local man at that time.
> 
> My SIL basically told me all this in April 2013 during one of our conversations. Then the next time I talked to her the following week my SIL is yelling at me saying I made all this up and that she never did anything like that in her life. I remember telling my SIL, what is wrong with you? I said you told me everything last week and now you are saying I am making it all up.
> 
> 
> I could say quite a bit more, but you all get the picture.
> 
> When my wife has asked over the last year that she feels it is time for her to start visiting her sister again, I have said over and over again, "You can go visit your sister at any time, but I won't go with you nor will I be around if you invite her to our home".
> 
> I told my wife that her sister is evil. My wife quietly said that her sister has changed. I told my wife, "Really"? Like when she repented and changed in 1999 when "She came back to the Lord", or in 2009 "When Christ became everything to her". I told my wife, I forgive your sister but I will be dammned if I will ever allow her back into my life. I said she has not changed and was always a bad influence on her.
> 
> As was mentioned by another poster, I agree that a person can be forgiven (my SIL) but I have no obligation to allow her back into my life.
> 
> I don't trust her. I have no idea what my wife and her talk about. I have had seen some of their texts back and forth but they are brief and typically talking about their health issues.
> 
> There was a time from about 2012 till early 2013 that I could always tell when my wife talked to my SIL, my wife would act different for quite a while. I remember telling my wife one day in 2012 after I came home from work that she must have just talked to her sister. My wife said "Why do say that". I said you are acting weird and you always act weird after you talk to her. I believe that those phone calls were attacks on me, complaining about me etc, and her sister was the only one who would listen and more then likely fed her negativity and projected that negativity on me when I was around her and she simply could not turn it off.
> 
> Around the end of April 2013 after my wife repented and came clean I told her that if she ever put her family ahead of me like she did for our entire marriage I will end the marriage. I meant it then and I have not changed my mind. And it goes double for her middle sister.
> 
> I don't care if she wants to go visit her sister, but it will be without me.


I know this post is old but ....

I would like to credit you but I can't. Your wife is a serial cheater. And an arrogant one to boot. 

Your choice whether to stay with her or not but do you really think that her hooking up with her slvt sister again is a good thing ? I think not. Even worse, you don't go to make a point but then they are unsupervised which could mean that it's going on all over again and you are being played.

If my wife cheated on me with local men let's say in Topeka, with her sister, then years later wanted to hang out with her sister again all of a sudden, in Topeka, what do you think is going on ? Or if not, how can you trust it ?

This woman is lucky you are still married to her. Your giving her this much unsupervised freedom is a recipe for disaster. You may think you are taking a stand but you placed a sword in the ground and you are falling

Sorry but I don't hold back anymore and yes I am on your side. 

1) Her sister and your wife can't be trusted together
2) Why are you letting them pal around again ?
3) What is your gameplan and how are you checking up on them ?

it's been 4 months, what's up ?


----------



## Chaparral

Thorburn is a good man. I've heard a good man is hard to find. I've seen many good men on TAM.

Good luck and prayers T.


----------



## wmn1

I agree Chap. I think from what I've read he's a great guy. 

My problem is that I hate seeing good people get screwed over and I really do wish the best for him. 

I know he may get offended over the shot I took at his wife above but I clearly think he deserves better than what he has and after 16 years, enough should be enough


----------



## bfree

Chuck71 said:


> if Thorburn goes quiet does that mean a schitstorm is on the horizon?


His wife is having serious health problems. I would guess that's taking up much of his time and attention. Even after all she did he is still showing mercy and compassion to her. Thorburn is not only a good man, he's one of the best.


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## lostmyreligion

Thorburn's one of those few men who actually live true to their faith with their eyes wide open.

I've nothing but huge respect, even when I don't agree.


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## lordmayhem

bfree said:


> His wife is having serious health problems. I would guess that's taking up much of his time and attention. Even after all she did he is still showing mercy and compassion to her. Thorburn is not only a good man, he's one of the best.


I feel for the guy. The only reason she stopped cheating is because now she's facing very serious health problems. That's when she had a sudden change of heart.

If she was healthy, this thread would be taking a very different turn. Right up until her health started to suffer, she was defiant, unrepentant, and demonizing him to her family.

Still, I wish her no ill will, and this is Thorburn's personal cross to bear.


----------



## bfree

lordmayhem said:


> I feel for the guy. The only reason she stopped cheating is because now she's facing very serious health problems. That's when she had a sudden change of heart.
> 
> If she was healthy, this thread would be taking a very different turn. Right up until her health started to suffer, she was defiant, unrepentant, and demonizing him to her family.
> 
> Still, I wish her no ill will, and this is Thorburn's personal cross to bear.


Regardless of what she's done, Thorburn still loves her. I pray for them both.


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## Ceegee

She's a lucky woman. 

Imagine where she'd be without this man of such character, principal, conviction and understanding.


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## ConanHub

Ceegee said:


> She's a lucky woman.
> 
> Imagine where she'd be without this man of such character, principal, conviction and understanding.


A brothel?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## carmen ohio

As others have noted, Thorburn is among TAM's finest.

He last posted on this thread in September and on TAM in October. The last time he logged in to TAM was in December. Maybe the next time he visits, he'll let us know how his wife is doing and how he is getting along.

In any event, I'm praying for him and his family, and encourage all Believers to do the same.


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## MattMatt

Come on, now. Stop trying to p**s on his chips, huh? It's unhelpful and demeaning.


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## IIJokerII

MattMatt said:


> Come on, now. Stop trying to p**s on his chips, huh? It's unhelpful and demeaning.


Matt, although your intentions are good the truth should have it's day. This change of heart is not due to a desire for character change but one of a personal need. These people are right; Her health dictated her change of behavior, not her moral compass realigning. 

It sucks that people are this way, but that is the way it is.


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## CH

IIJokerII said:


> Matt, although your intentions are good the truth should have it's day. This change of heart is not due to a desire for character change but one of a personal need. These people are right; Her health dictated her change of behavior, not her moral compass realigning.
> 
> It sucks that people are this way, but that is the way it is.


Then it's a good thing there are people like Thorburn in this world to make us realize not everyone is POS that only looks after themselves....

There are more than one couple on this site through the years that stayed together because of other circumstances (the BS taking the WS back) but to me, as long as they're happy now that's all that counts.

It might change down the road, it might not but all we can hope for his the best. Expect the worst, hope for the best once you've been burned.

My wife stuck it out with me, she didn't need to, we had no kids, no nothing together yet at the time. If it wasn't for people like them, our world would be screwed 100x over.


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## imjustwatching

Well mattmatt we both know that they are just saying the obvious truth. 
I prefer telling him the ugly truth rather than laying and saying 
" everything is great his wife is great his marriage is great he's doing the right choice "


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## GusPolinski

IIJokerII said:


> Matt, although your intentions are good the truth should have it's day. This change of heart is not due to a desire for character change but one of a personal need. These people are right; Her health dictated her change of behavior, not her moral compass realigning.
> 
> It sucks that people are this way, but that is the way it is.





imjustwatching said:


> Well mattmatt we both know that they are just saying the obvious truth.
> I prefer telling him the ugly truth rather than laying and saying
> " everything is great his wife is great his marriage is great he's doing the right choice "


I'd imagine that -- after 4+ years, 2800+ posts, and 17 threads (this one alone is closing in on 160 pages) here on TAM -- it's probably pretty safe to say that (a) the truth has "had it's day" and (b) Thorburn knows what's up.

ETA: With ^this reply^, this thread is now AT 160 pages.


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## Affaircare

IIJokerII said:


> Matt, although your intentions are good the truth should have it's day. This change of heart is not due to a desire for character change but one of a personal need. These people are right; Her health dictated her change of behavior, not her moral compass realigning.
> 
> It sucks that people are this way, but that is the way it is.


First, as Gus mentioned, Thorburn has been here a LONG, LONG time and I believe he has faced the truth and the truth has had its day. From what I can tell, Thorburn is a very strong man and from his own moral compass he consciously chose to love someone who did not deserve his love. 

Second, although it's not a fabulous characteristic, I believe it honestly is entirely possible that her health decline was the catalyst or part of the catalyst to her change in behavior. But here's the thing--when people have a mortality scare, isn't that often what makes them turn to God, regain their faith, or begin a more moral existence? People sometimes "wake up and smell the coffee" when faced with the possibility (or in her case maybe a probability) of dying. 

So if that was the case, and her ill health was what it took to shake her up enough to change, then I say maybe that wasn't a bad thing. Yep it took something drastic to make her stop cheating, but something occurred in her life that DID MAKE HER STOP and for Thorburn at least, that was enough.


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## MattMatt

Thorburn needs no "your wife is xyz!" He knows this more than anyone.

He is offering his wife grace. He knows he doesn't have to. But he wants to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

MattMatt said:


> Thorburnneeds no "your wife is xyz!" He knows this more than anyone.
> 
> He is offering his wife grace. He knows he doesn't have to. But he wants to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If someone wants to keep sticking their hands in a running wood chipper, that is their decision and I will allow that it is totally their responsibility but no power on or over earth can make me respect it.

I will pray for her well being and healing. I will pray for Thorburn.

He strikes me as an abuse victim however. Like a battered woman that keeps going back to her abuser.

I truly hope both of them are transformed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wmn1

I agree Conan. besides a lot of people here are making an assumption that Thorburn is doing well and that he's coping with it. It's been months since anyone's heard from him. For all we know, he may have just said 'enough is enough' by now but part of me doubts that.

His wife obviously has no respect for him and is a serial cheater and while I agree that Thorburn deserves better, if I was him, I would have a stack of evidence big enough that she would be begging to settle for divorce on my terms.


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## naiveonedave

nm


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## MattMatt

wmn1 said:


> I agree Conan. besides a lot of people here are making an assumption that Thorburn is doing well and that he's coping with it. It's been months since anyone's heard from him. For all we know, he may have just said 'enough is enough' by now but part of me doubts that.
> 
> His wife obviously has no respect for him and is a serial cheater and while I agree that Thorburn deserves better, if I was him, I would have a stack of evidence big enough that she would be begging to settle for divorce on my terms.


His wife had no respect for herself, firstly. So with that in mind, how could she respect her husband? After all, she was a cheat and he loved her, so...


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## ConanHub

I agree Matt. There is still absolutely no excuse for her abuse. I am sincerely praying for her healing and that of Thorburn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## strugglinghusband

I think Thornburn's faith and belief in God has a big role in all of it...

To love someone after the things he has been put thru....I admire the man.


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## carmen ohio

I see that Thorburn is posting again. I hope he will drop us a note about how things are going for him and how his wife is faring.


----------



## Thorburn

I had to take time off from TAM. I would like to give an update and reply to some of the posts here. 

I attempted to write a reply several times and just simply erased everything.

Firstly, I don't hold any ill feelings to those who feel I should have left my wife here on TAM. If I had a redo, having reflected many times on how I did things, having known what I know now I would have left my wife in early 2000 following the first D-day. 

Second, I can honestly say that I still feel that I did nothing in our marriage to cause my wife to cheat. 

Third, the wife I have now is not worth what I had put up with in our marriage. I have not won a prize. She is ill most days. She became very ill a few months after she came clean in 2013 and though she has improved over the past year her health is still fairly poor. She could not drive a car for more than a year. Frankly, I feel that she deserves being ill. She suffers and when she asks me why is she so ill, I answer with "I don't know why", yet in the back of my mind I feel she is being punished. She has reunited with her middle sister and her middle sister was involved with some of her cheating over the years. I saw her on Saturday and at a wedding a month or so ago and my SIL looks horrible. She can barely walk, has agoraphobia, is in a constant state of a big pity party and asked me at the wedding pleading with me to tell her what is wrong with her. I simply told her, "I have no idea". I could diagnose her, as I said, she has agoraphobia, plus anxiety disorder, panic attacks, etc. etc. And as I witnessed on Saturday, I said to my wife that her sister looks horrid. IF there is a Karma bus, both my wife and my SIL got hit hard by it and they are still being drug down the street.

Fourth, I stay busy doing things around the house. My wood working shop continues to grow. I have American Chestnut beams in half my two car garage and I am slowly getting them ready for various projects in my house.

Fifth, my job is going well. For whatever reason I get the worse cases from a mental health perspective to deal with in counseling. If a person has schizophrenia I get them. I had stopped going to the locked acute psychiatric units at the hospital and was contacted by the lead doctor there that the patients are complaining that I am not coming there anymore and they requested that I restart the groups. The patients stated that I understand them. I can say that I don't support their delusions and challenge them in how they view life. I talk straight to them and don't baby them.


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## Chuck71

Everything in life comes full circle. For what you have dealt with, you are already on a list with St. Peter

The karma part is..... they both know it but are afraid to admit it

We know it but most important, you do...... thanks for checking in brother


----------



## GusPolinski

Thorburn said:


> I had to take time off from TAM. I would like to give an update and reply to some of the posts here.
> 
> I attempted to write a reply several times and just simply erased everything.
> 
> Firstly, I don't hold any ill feelings to those who feel I should have left my wife here on TAM. If I had a redo, having reflected many times on how I did things, having known what I know now I would have left my wife in early 2000 following the first D-day.
> 
> Second, I can honestly say that I still feel that I did nothing in our marriage to cause my wife to cheat.
> 
> Third, the wife I have now is not worth what I had put up with in our marriage. I have not won a prize. She is ill most days. She became very ill a few months after she came clean in 2013 and though she has improved over the past year her health is still fairly poor. She could not drive a car for more than a year. Frankly, I feel that she deserves being ill. She suffers and when she asks me why is she so ill, I answer with "I don't know why", yet in the back of my mind I feel she is being punished. She has reunited with her middle sister and her middle sister was involved with some of her cheating over the years. I saw her on Saturday and at a wedding a month or so ago and my SIL looks horrible. She can barely walk, has agoraphobia, is in a constant state of a big pity party and asked me at the wedding pleading with me to tell her what is wrong with her. I simply told her, "I have no idea". I could diagnose her, as I said, she has agoraphobia, plus anxiety disorder, panic attacks, etc. etc. And as I witnessed on Saturday, I said to my wife that her sister looks horrid. IF there is a Karma bus, both my wife and my SIL got hit hard by it and they are still being drug down the street.
> 
> Fourth, I stay busy doing things around the house. My wood working shop continues to grow. I have American Chestnut beams in half my two car garage and I am slowly getting them ready for various projects in my house.
> 
> Fifth, my job is going well. For whatever reason I get the worse cases from a mental health perspective to deal with in counseling. If a person has schizophrenia I get them. I had stopped going to the locked acute psychiatric units at the hospital and was contacted by the lead doctor there that the patients are complaining that I am not coming there anymore and they requested that I restart the groups. The patients stated that I understand them. I can say that I don't support their delusions and challenge them in how they view life. I talk straight to them and don't baby them.


 @Thorburn, I clicked "Like" on ^this^ not because I "Like" that you (or, for that matter, your wife) are having such a tough time these days, but rather because...

...well, hey -- it's Thorburn!

Welcome back, sir!

:smthumbup:


----------



## Affaircare

@Thorburn, I'm like @GusPolinski -- I clicked "like" not because I "like" what has happened to you, but rather because I "like" that you gave us an update and it's good to see you again!


----------



## MattMatt

Welcome back.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Affaircare said:


> @Thorburn, I'm like @GusPolinski -- I clicked "like" not because I "like" what has happened to you, but rather because I "like" that you gave us an update and it's good to see you again!


:iagree::iagree::iagreeThorburn welcome back! You have always been a good man! You are a model for the rest of us.


----------



## Openminded

Best wishes, Thorburn. 

Thanks for the update.

PS
I'm not in general a believer in karma but in this case I most definitely am.


----------



## bandit.45

Good to hear from you T. Keep doing well. I imagine once your WW gets back on her feet the absurdity will recommence.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Good to hear from you T. Keep doing well. I imagine once your WW gets back on her feet the absurdity will recommence.


I doubt that her health will ever improve. The meds that she was on that did offer some relief had serious side effects as one was leading her to be totally blind. Her optometrist told her if she stayed on it for 6 more months it would had been irreversible. She was on chemo for over 7 years and she had to stop it due to side effects and now her right wrist is locked and will no longer function and that is irreversible. She may lose the use of other joints. She faces the possibility of losing her hearing in her left ear. 

Her "good days", are constant headaches, constant ear ringing, feeling flu like symptoms, vertigo and vision issues. When she gets an attack, which is happening about twice a month, she is laid up in bed for days. If she mows our yard, she is laid up for about a day or so.

Though she is thin her blood pressure is very high and she was put on a med for that, she stopped taking it after three days. It was making her sick.

I have thought about the issue of my wife's health. Had she not gotten ill in 2013 would she had started back up? Maybe.

I can say that my healing was put on hold in June 2013 and it never progressed after that time. My relationship with my wife is cool at best. I don't talk to her much and can't tell you the last time we really hugged or had sex. It has to do more with her being ill and I got tired of repeating myself due to her loss of hearing.

I got frustrated with her telling me how sick she is feeling and I can see it in her face, so I basically just let her alone.


----------



## karole

I'm so sorry Thorn. You deserve a lot better my friend.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Does she demonstrate any remorse, I realize you taking the higher roAd but I have to say isn't there days you would love to ask her if the OM was in her life would he have stayed in her condition?


----------



## Truthseeker1

Thorburn said:


> I doubt that her health will ever improve. The meds that she was on that did offer some relief had serious side effects as one was leading her to be totally blind. Her optometrist told her if she stayed on it for 6 more months it would had been irreversible. She was on chemo for over 7 years and she had to stop it due to side effects and now her right wrist is locked and will no longer function and that is irreversible. She may lose the use of other joints. She faces the possibility of losing her hearing in her left ear.
> 
> Her "good days", are constant headaches, constant ear ringing, feeling flu like symptoms, vertigo and vision issues. When she gets an attack, which is happening about twice a month, she is laid up in bed for days. If she mows our yard, she is laid up for about a day or so.
> 
> Though she is thin her blood pressure is very high and she was put on a med for that, she stopped taking it after three days. It was making her sick.
> 
> I have thought about the issue of my wife's health. Had she not gotten ill in 2013 would she had started back up? Maybe.
> 
> I can say that my healing was put on hold in June 2013 and it never progressed after that time. My relationship with my wife is cool at best. I don't talk to her much and can't tell you the last time we really hugged or had sex. It has to do more with her being ill and I got tired of repeating myself due to her loss of hearing.
> 
> I got frustrated with her telling me how sick she is feeling and I can see it in her face, so I basically just let her alone.


 @Thorburn You are a good man for staying - you have shown her mercy she has not earned. Your anger and frustration jump off the screen. Make sure to take care of you!!! She has to know that you've checked out of the marriage and are just staying out of a sense of duty. Will she need to be in a nursing home at some point? I'm so so very sorry.


----------



## where_are_we

What a sad story. So so sorry for you.


----------



## Thorburn

Xenote said:


> Does she demonstrate any remorse, I realize you taking the higher roAd but I have to say isn't there days you would love to ask her if the OM was in her life would he have stayed in her condition?


My wife showed quite a bit of remorse. She came clean on things that I did not expect, she was an open book. She lied once after coming clean and though it was rather minor it set me off and when she understood how a lie can set things back big time she got it. So from May 2013 till the time she got very ill there was a complete open book. Even during her illness she answered every question. But in dealing with multiple hospitalizations, E.R. visits, doctor visits, I eventually put everything on hold.

There were times in 2013 and 2014 in which she was so ill I had to carry her from the bedroom to the toilet and it was roughly 8 feet. 

The XOM had no plans of leaving his family and until the last D-day my wife had no plans of leaving me. I listened to hours of recordings and my wife complained about me but she never talked to anyone about leaving me. When she was outed and the XOM made it very clear that he wanted to work on his marriage then my wife started contacting other men. Ironically, I had access to her accounts and all the men saw how nutty my wife was and they cut off contact with her. She tried to set up dates with some of these men and they all had excuses and did not make any dates. There was one exception. There was a guy from college who is a fairly known theologian that my wife did go out on a date. He got D and kept stating how lonely he was and my wife hooked up once with him. The guy was weird in college and though he is a brainiac he is still weird. My wife was so out there that she was drastically trying to find security with whom ever was available. The theologian moved from the East coast to Montana and is now is in Belgium teaching theology. Based upon the emails back and forth he was very pathetic. 


My wife during her A's was not looking for someone to live the rest of her life, she was simply looking for sex.

Keep in mind that my wife always drove to meet the XOM. He never drove anywhere. My wife picked him up. She did all the leg work. She picked him up at his work or near his house. She would drive almost two hour one way to meet him and he never drove a foot. 

My wife was clearly the pursuer.

I doubt if anyone would have stayed with her after she got so ill.


----------



## Thorburn

Truthseeker1 said:


> @Thorburn You are a good man for staying - you have shown her mercy she has not earned. Your anger and frustration jump off the screen. Make sure to take care of you!!! She has to know that you've checked out of the marriage and are just staying out of a sense of duty. Will she need to be in a nursing home at some point? I'm so so very sorry.


In 2013 she did leave the hospital with a walker and used it for a few weeks. If she had not improved I am not sure. We had talked about a hospital bed and a home nurse but then she improved. She did not drive for over a year and there are still days she can't drive.

TS - I must admit that there are days I am still rather angry at what she did. 

If I shared some of things that she did to me folks here would throw up and it is those things that anger me the most. She had no respect whatsoever for me nor for herself.

I see that she reads her bible quite a bit and I do check her devices. I have found her praying quite a bit as well. I came home early one day just to check on her and snuck in the house and she was praying.

I have checked on her emails and chats with family and she does not know I am checking and I have found not one complaint about me.


----------



## farsidejunky

Glad to see an update, brother, although I wish it was one full of actual rainbows and unicorns for you.

Do you find your wood work and actual work fulfilling? I ask because you still sound pretty desolate brother. Many other would have folded in your situation, so for that you are to be commended.


----------



## lordmayhem

Thorburn said:


> I have checked on her emails and chats with family and she does not know I am checking and I have found not one complaint about me.


I should hope not. After all that she's done to you and your family, *she should be praising you to high heaven* for sticking by her. Because any other man would have left this serial cheater. I clearly remember she was unrepentant and downright mentally abusive to you right up until her illness hit. If it weren't for her illness, she would be cheating on you this very second.

With that said, you still have a lot of tough times ahead, even though you have been through enough already. You surely have the patience of Job. It's easy to say on an internet forum that you should dump her and move on, but in the real world, its not that easy. So all I can do is to wish you the strength to continue on with what you're doing. Is she being punished? I don't know, that's not for me to say, because there are a lot of evil people in this world who have never felt any consequences of their evil deeds.


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## itbeme

After reading just a small portion of your thread, my heart aches for the both of you. You are a very good and strong man Thornburn, your WW was or is a very lost person. She is lucky to have you. Take care. All in all life is what you make it. SMILES:smile2:


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## ConanHub

I was already sick in my mouth over what you have shared.

Maybe God is seriously kicking her ass for being the worst wh0re I have ever heard of.

Maybe your kindness is giving space for the wrath of God.

I don't understand totally how you are doing what you are apart from His grace anyway.

I believe you will be blessed. Peace brother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Locke.Stratos

I don't adhere to the simplistic comprehension and misconception that karma is some cosmic retribution system, but if anyone's experiencing _bad_ karma, I'd have to say that it's you Thor.

You went through a lot of awful things with your wife. She was likely to always end up ill. Instead of having to endure that on her own, she has you to take care of her, someone who's capable and very able. Seriously, did you go around kicking puppies and eating children in a past life:|?


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## eastsouth2000

Karma Bus hit this one so hard.

Why ask husband why she is sick? lol ask yourself.


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## convert

Thorburn, i have followed you story from the beginning.

I guess i would feel a little bitter, well maybe a lot bitter, that now after all this, you have to deal with her illness and that [email protected] and yes the Karma bus has hit hard but it seems to of run over you foot you in the process.

I also wonder if she did not get ill if she would stay faithful. I just get the sense that her illness is keeping her faithful, I may be wrong.

you get no intimacy now and i sense that you are settling.

I know it is not in you or me for that matter, *but how would she feel about an open marriage now?* After all she basically had a one sided open marriage for several years.


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## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> I doubt that her health will ever improve. The meds that she was on that did offer some relief had serious side effects as one was leading her to be totally blind. Her optometrist told her if she stayed on it for 6 more months it would had been irreversible. She was on chemo for over 7 years and she had to stop it due to side effects and now her right wrist is locked and will no longer function and that is irreversible. She may lose the use of other joints. She faces the possibility of losing her hearing in her left ear.
> 
> Her "good days", are constant headaches, constant ear ringing, feeling flu like symptoms, vertigo and vision issues. When she gets an attack, which is happening about twice a month, she is laid up in bed for days. If she mows our yard, she is laid up for about a day or so.
> 
> Though she is thin her blood pressure is very high and she was put on a med for that, she stopped taking it after three days. It was making her sick.
> 
> I have thought about the issue of my wife's health. Had she not gotten ill in 2013 would she had started back up? Maybe.
> 
> I can say that my healing was put on hold in June 2013 and it never progressed after that time. My relationship with my wife is cool at best. I don't talk to her much and can't tell you the last time we really hugged or had sex. It has to do more with her being ill and I got tired of repeating myself due to her loss of hearing.
> 
> I got frustrated with her telling me how sick she is feeling and I can see it in her face, so I basically just let her alone.


Yeah...after all she put you through it would have been nice if she could have settled down to be the wife you needed her to be. I say do what you only absolutely need to do for her, but live your life as if you were a single man. Pursue your interests to the degree you can. Woodworking is a great pastime. I enjoy it also. 

If I didn't know you and know how staunch your personal ethics were, I too would be recommending asking your WW if you could have a girlfriend on the side. But I know you won't do that. 

So good luck man. Please post more often. TAM would benefit from your experience and wisdom.


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## bfree

Thorburn, can I ask a question. Why do you stay with her? Do you feel it would be cruel to leave her while she's sick? Do you feel guilty in some way for something? Is it out of some feeling of obligation - like for better or for worse? This is not meant as an insult but do you believe you have some bit of a martyr complex? I just don't understand. She may feel guilty. She may feel remorse. She may even love you....now. But you don't sound like you've healed at all. You sound like you're in a lot of pain. She cheated. And she did it with several men over several years and with malice toward you. God has long ago relieved you of the burden that is your wife. Maybe it's time to let go and let God?


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## bandit.45

He won't leave her. Thorburn is a slave to his principles. So he has to look for the little pleasures in life to keep him going.


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## bfree

bandit.45 said:


> He won't leave her. Thorburn is a slave to his principles. So he has to look for the little pleasures in life to keep him going.


What principles could possibly justify this torment? He's not Job and this isn't ancient Judea.


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## jorgegene

bfree said:


> Thorburn, can I ask a question. Why do you stay with her? Do you feel it would be cruel to leave her while she's sick? Do you feel guilty in some way for something? Is it out of some feeling of obligation - like for better or for worse? This is not meant as an insult but do you believe you have some bit of a martyr complex? I just don't understand. She may feel guilty. She may feel remorse. She may even love you....now. But you don't sound like you've healed at all. You sound like you're in a lot of pain. She cheated. And she did it with several men over several years and with malice toward you. God has long ago relieved you of the burden that is your wife. Maybe it's time to let go and let God?


We can remember the story of Thomas Moore, the lawyer/Judge centuries ago in England that refused to give his consent to Henry VIII to divorce and wed another wife, pretty much solely for the purpose of giving him an heir. Thomas stood fast even to death at the chopping block. All he had to do was say 'ok' to King Henry and his life and stature would go on. But he didn't. When asked why he wouldn't just acquiesce and get on with life, his answer was simple. If he gave up who he was and his principles then he wouldn't be himself any more. It wasn't worth it to him to save his life but lose his self.

'A man for all seasons'. That's who Thorburn reminds me of.


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## bandit.45

bfree said:


> What principles could possibly justify this torment? He's not Job and this isn't ancient Judea.


HIS principles. They are what they are and he won't deviate from them. I've known this cat too long. His TAM handle should be "Stubburn" instead of Thorburn.


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## eastsouth2000

Thonburn So your wife managed to have somefun before all of this.

How about you did you manage to find a better lady. or hang about with female friends?

I suggest you have some fun of your own.

Life is short! "****** ******* is always there"

You did enough! 

I will pray for you that you may find happiness. And your wife's health!


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## Truthseeker1

bfree said:


> Thorburn, can I ask a question. Why do you stay with her? Do you feel it would be cruel to leave her while she's sick? Do you feel guilty in some way for something? Is it out of some feeling of obligation - like for better or for worse? This is not meant as an insult but do you believe you have some bit of a martyr complex? I just don't understand. She may feel guilty. She may feel remorse. She may even love you....now. But you don't sound like you've healed at all. You sound like you're in a lot of pain. She cheated. And she did it with several men over several years and with malice toward you. God has long ago relieved you of the burden that is your wife. Maybe it's time to let go and let God?


 @bfree I agree he owes her absolutely nothing. What concerns me is that not only did she sap his mental energies with her affairs, and now her poor physical health is sapping his physical energy in addition to adding more mental anguish. But as we all know here on TAM @Thorburn is a man of strong convictions. Many of us would have been out the door - his wife was an unrepentant cheater for a good deal of their marriage and does not deserve the care she is getting from him.

@Thorburn make sure to take care of you. Build a life for yourself away from your wife - living in that home must be suffocating. I know from experience it's hard enough to be a caretaker for someone you love and admire I can not imagine making these sacrifices for someone like your WW. You also may need to consider alternative forms of care for her if you were no longer her husband. She stopped being your responsibility the day she started cheating in my opinion.


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## Truthseeker1

@Thorburn Just checking in how are you doing today Thornburn?


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## Thorburn

bfree said:


> Thorburn, can I ask a question. Why do you stay with her? Do you feel it would be cruel to leave her while she's sick? Do you feel guilty in some way for something? Is it out of some feeling of obligation - like for better or for worse? This is not meant as an insult but do you believe you have some bit of a martyr complex? I just don't understand. She may feel guilty. She may feel remorse. She may even love you....now. But you don't sound like you've healed at all. You sound like you're in a lot of pain. She cheated. And she did it with several men over several years and with malice toward you. God has long ago relieved you of the burden that is your wife. Maybe it's time to let go and let God?


I am not a martyr.

My faith allows me to D my wife without regret. So no obligation. The pledge for better or worse was broken when she cheated the first time.

I have no guilt. I did nothing to make my wife cheat.

It is due in part to her illness. 

My wife came clean around May 2013. So from May till early July 2013 my wife was doing the heavy lifting in R. Then she got extremely ill. Had my wife continue on the path she was on I believe thing would be different then they are today.

So 60 days of R then she gets extremely ill. And my healing is put on hold.

There have been days, especially in 2013 where I just wanted to drop her off at the XOM's house and say, "You take care of her".

How do you ask questions like, "I want to know more about 1999", when the person is throwing up, having diarrhea, curled up in a ball for weeks at a time, can't walk two steps, etc." There were times I had to carry her from the bed to the toilet.

How do you redevelop intimacy when a person has constant ear ringing, headaches, etc.?

How do you ask questions when the doctors are suggesting that she might be paralyzed the rest of her life, or she might be totally blind, etc.? 

Her sisters never visited. Her youngest brother came up once when she was extremely ill and that was only for 1/2 hour and it was because he was in town for a ball game.

I was the only person caring for my wife and still am.

I do get angry but I find outlets for that. The outside of my house is half painted and the basement remodel is slowly getting done. I do woodworking as well.

July 2013 ran into August 2013 which ran into September, etc. etc. Hospitals, E.R. visits, doctor visits and so on. Then it continued in 2014. She could not drive at all. She just started driving again early this year. There were and still are days where she will be in bed.

We took a financial hit when she quit her job and under Obama care my health insurance premiums have gone up as well as our co-pays. The last two years I have paid $7,0000.00 in co-pays typically by the end of May and it is all on my wife.

We have managed some trips to Cancun, the Bahamas, etc. but those trips s*ck. There were days where she is in bed and on good days by the afternoon she was basically done. In Cancun there were a few times where I basically had to carry her.

I saw my wife's sister at a wedding a month or so ago and I dropped my wife off at her house this past Saturday. I can't stand her sister. Her sister can hardly walk and has mental issues. Ironically her sister was involved with my wife in the past with cheating. 

I refuse to have a pity party.


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## Truthseeker1

Thorburn said:


> I am not a martyr.
> 
> My faith allows me to D my wife without regret. So no obligation. The pledge for better or worse was broken when she cheated the first time.
> 
> I have no guilt. I did nothing to make my wife cheat.
> 
> It is due in part to her illness.
> 
> My wife came clean around May 2013. So from May till early July 2013 my wife was doing the heavy lifting in R. Then she got extremely ill. Had my wife continue on the path she was on I believe thing would be different then they are today.
> 
> So 60 days of R then she gets extremely ill. And my healing is put on hold.
> 
> There have been days, especially in 2013 where I just wanted to drop her off at the XOM's house and say, "You take care of her".
> 
> How do you ask questions like, "I want to know more about 1999", when the person is throwing up, having diarrhea, curled up in a ball for weeks at a time, can't walk two steps, etc." There were times I had to carry her from the bed to the toilet.
> 
> How do you redevelop intimacy when a person has constant ear ringing, headaches, etc.?
> 
> How do you ask questions when the doctors are suggesting that she might be paralyzed the rest of her life, or she might be totally blind, etc.?
> 
> Her sisters never visited. Her youngest brother came up once when she was extremely ill and that was only for 1/2 hour and it was because he was in town for a ball game.
> 
> I was the only person caring for my wife and still am.
> 
> I do get angry but I find outlets for that. The outside of my house is half painted and the basement remodel is slowly getting done. I do woodworking as well.
> 
> July 2013 ran into August 2013 which ran into September, etc. etc. Hospitals, E.R. visits, doctor visits and so on. Then it continued in 2014. She could not drive at all. She just started driving again early this year. There were and still are days where she will be in bed.
> 
> We took a financial hit when she quit her job and under Obama care my health insurance premiums have gone up as well as our co-pays. The last two years I have paid $7,0000.00 in co-pays typically by the end of May and it is all on my wife.
> 
> We have managed some trips to Cancun, the Bahamas, etc. but those trips s*ck. There were days where she is in bed and on good days by the afternoon she was basically done. In Cancun there were a few times where I basically had to carry her.
> 
> I saw my wife's sister at a wedding a month or so ago and I dropped my wife off at her house this past Saturday. I can't stand her sister. Her sister can hardly walk and has mental issues. Ironically her sister was involved with my wife in the past with cheating.
> 
> I refuse to have a pity party.


 @Thorburn You are a good and decent man - but we have all said that a million times. Make sure you take care of you- your wife's situation is unfortunate but you also need to make sure you are fulfilled and happy. she's done enough damage.


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## turnera

Have you looked into the government paying for a part-time carer? I'm sure her doctors would give the nod for it, and you can get someone to come to your house for at least a few hours a week, so you can get some free time.


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## dash74

giftlove said:


> hello
> my name is Miss Gift Khalifa please
> contact me with This my email
> address ( [email protected] )


Fixed that for you


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## Thorburn

turnera said:


> Have you looked into the government paying for a part-time carer? I'm sure her doctors would give the nod for it, and you can get someone to come to your house for at least a few hours a week, so you can get some free time.


Presently I don't need it. But I wish I had thought of this in 2013 and 2014. Should have gotten a visiting nurse but at the time I was just doing and not thinking.

I remember in 1994 I was a chaplain at a hospital. I typically worked night shift a few nights a week. One night we had two families get into an argument and they started shooting at each other. One family was taken to one hospital and another family was brought into the one I was working. 5 family members came to our E.R. One was dead, another was dying, another was taken to the O.R. and the other two were being treated and would be released from the E.R. with minor wounds. I was caught up in the action. Dealing with the medical staff, police, patients and family members. It was chaotic to say the least. The Night Nurse supervisor leaned over me and said, "It is time to call in the cavalry". I remember looking at her and said, "You're right". I had a list of chaplains to call in cases like this to assist me. I called two and they came in to help. I assigned each one a patient and gave them a status report and told them where the family members were located in various conference rooms awaiting updates.

In 2013 and 2014 I should have gotten help, could of and should of done that.


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## carpenoctem

Thorburn:

God forbid, if the roles were reversed (I am not referring to infidelity, but only the sickness), as they say in the Orient, much grass would have by now grown where her ass was. In all probability.

But YOU are good man. So just as all good men, you must pay a steep price for that goodness.

Since it seems that only her corporeal exit will release you from this peculiar purgatory, let me offer you a rationale as per Hindu philosophy: you are her reward for good deeds done during an earlier birth. And she probably is your punishment for bad deeds in an earlier birth.

Please forgive the brashness of this post.

Best of luck, Sir.


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## carmen ohio

bfree said:


> What principles could possibly justify this torment? He's not Job and this isn't ancient Judea.


If you want to understand someone like Thorburn, don't read the Book of Job, read the Book of Hosea, especially the third chapter:

*1* The LORD said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes." *
2* So I bought her for fifteen shekels of silver and about a homer and a lethek of barley. 
*3* Then I told her, "You are to live with me many days; you must not be a prostitute or be intimate with any man, and I will live with you." 
*4* For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol. 
*5* Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.

It's not about being tormented for one's principles, it's about emulating God's unselfish love for and willingness to forgive even the most reprehensible conduct of those who repent.


----------



## farsidejunky

carmen ohio said:


> If you want to understand someone like Thorburn, don't read the Book of Job, read the Book of Hosea, especially the third chapter:
> 
> *1* The LORD said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes." *
> 2* So I bought her for fifteen shekels of silver and about a homer and a lethek of barley.
> *3* Then I told her, "You are to live with me many days; you must not be a prostitute or be intimate with any man, and I will live with you."
> *4* For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol.
> *5* Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.
> 
> It's not about being tormented for one's principles, it's about emulating God's unselfish love for and willingness to forgive even the most reprehensible conduct of those who repent.


I could almost agree with this sentiment if Thorburn had actually forgiven her. 

His level of resentment indicates otherwise.


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## Ceegee

farsidejunky said:


> I could almost agree with this sentiment if Thorburn had actually forgiven her.
> 
> His level of resentment indicates otherwise.



Mans forgiveness is as imperfect as he is.


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## farsidejunky

Ceegee said:


> Mans forgiveness is as imperfect as he is.


I agree, but the premise of the scripture was that man forgive as God does. It is the foundation of the quoted scripture.

He has not done that, therfore the scripture is not applicable. 

I really do not understand why he is doing it. I have asked him a few times on this thread, but maybe I have been too obtuse to hear his answer.


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## MattMatt

farsidejunky said:


> I agree, but the premise of the scripture was that man forgive as God does. It is the foundation of the quoted scripture.
> 
> He has not done that, therfore the scripture is not applicable.
> 
> I really do not understand why he is doing it. I have asked him a few times on this thread, but maybe I have been too obtuse to hear his answer.


I think Thorburn is doing his best to forgive her and also trying to show her some grace. One definition of grace is "love given to the unlovely."


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## GusPolinski

The whole Hosea/Gomer thing never made much sense to me, and probably because I've always viewed the relationship between the God of the Old Testament and Israel as more of a parent/child relationship.


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## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


> The whole Hosea/Gomer thing never made much sense to me, and probably because I've always viewed the relationship between the God of the Old Testament and Israel as more of a parent/child relationship.


God actually told Hosea to do it as a message to Israel.

I don't know that God told thorburn to keep being abused by this disturbed person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

I get that and all, but the analogy feels a bit incomplete nonetheless.


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## Ceegee

It's only about Thorburn. It's not about his wife. 

She means very little to this story now. 

I wonder how he would suggest any of his patients handle a similar scenario.


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## carmen ohio

GusPolinski said:


> The whole Hosea/Gomer thing never made much sense to me, and probably because I've always viewed the relationship between the God of the Old Testament and Israel as more of a parent/child relationship.


The relationship between God and Israel is described as that of a marriage, not only the Book of Hosea but also in Jeremiah 3:9 and Ezekiel 16:30-34. And, in both Jewish and Christian tradition, the Song of Solomon (Song of Songs), which describes the love between a man and his bride with graphic -- even erotic -- language, is interpreted as also describing God's love for his people. This symbolism is repeated in the New Testament, which refers to the universal Church as the bride of Christ (see II Corinthians 11:2 , Ephesians 5:25-27 and Revelations 21:2).

The Book of Hosea makes a lot of sense if you believe that God is both loving and forgiving. Hosea uses the metaphor of adultery to explain the nature of sin -- sin is the betrayal of God's love. Just as adultery can destroy a marriage, sin can destroy one's relationship with God because, like adultery, sin involves betraying the one who loves you. And, just as a WS's remorse can lead to reconciliation with the BS, repentance for one's sins leads to forgiveness and reconciliation with God.


----------



## carpenoctem

A few observations:

Assumedly, emotional self-flagellation and slow-poisoning oneself a bit are natural obstacles on the path of graceful forgiveness, as ordained by God.

Thought: suppose a staunch believer asks you *not to try to run to higher ground when a Tsunami comes, because you are ordained by destiny / God’s will to stand your ground and face it / try to keep floating where you are?*

*Practitioners of pure Jainism walk looking down on the ground, so that they don’t step on an insect and kill it (logic: that too is God’s creation, with an equal right to live) and sometimes end up getting knocked down by vehicles because of it. They drink water through a filtering cloth tied around their mouth (same rationale), and if the tenets are followed strictly, they should not even squash a mosquito that bites them (logic: it has a right to its natural food).*

Now, THOSE would sound illogical / hyperlogical to many here, wouldn’t they?

It’s all in the degrees, I guess.


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## GusPolinski

I get all that, carmen, but still... the analogy seems a bit lop-sided to me.


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## carmen ohio

GusPolinski said:


> I get all that, carmen, but still... the analogy seems a bit lop-sided to me.


OK. There are many things in the Bible that I don't understand.

Come to think about it, there are just many things that I don't understand, period.


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## GusPolinski

carmen ohio said:


> OK. There are many things in the Bible that I don't understand.
> 
> Come to think about it, there are just many things that I don't understand, period.


I'm right there w/ you, buddy.


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## Cynthia

The example of Hosea and Gomer is not what God expects of us. Hosea was a prophet. God asked prophets to do strange things to illustrate His points. If we were expected to do as the prophets did, we would be eating over a fire fueled with our own poop. That is not what God is calling us to do. It is what He specifically called Hosea, only Hosea, to for a very specific purpose.


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## Affaircare

Folks, 

I'm speaking as a person who is also caring for a VERY ill spouse, and I can honestly say that much of what Thorburn writes resonates with me as well. In our instance I was the Disloyal Spouse and my Dear Hubby was the Loyal Spouse, so yes of course a portion of my thinking is that it is right and reasonable for me to spend the rest of my life taking care of him. 

But I think what many people are overlooking is that it's not necessarily only the infidelity that defines a couple and their marriage. For example, Dear Hubby and I have not been intimate in the traditional "missionary" type style in years because he just physically can not do that. But that is not the only way that intimacy is defined for us: we are also intimate emotionally and mentally and verbally--and on the physical front we get creative! The point is that I have a choice. I could look at what I don't have and get all upset and say to myself that I deserve to be happy and spend my "happy golden years" with someone who can go camping and go to car shows with me (activities we used to love to do)... -OR- ... I can instead choose to look at all I do have and find happiness in spending my "happy golden years" with the man I've spent my child-raising years and mid-life years and menopause years with, and adapt to things we CAN still do together and enjoy doing those new things. 

Many of the things Thorburn writes about are frustrating, indeed. But the frustration is from being both someone's spouse and their nurse. It confuses things and issues get intermingled, especially things like forgiving and healing from an affair and then pretty much immediately jumping into nurse-mode. Has Thorburn forgiven his wife? Who knows--that is for him to choose. Right now I think a larger part of his frustration is that we have a vision of our 50's/60's as "Woohoo, empty nest, house to ourselves and free time to travel and do stuff together" and suddenly we have a sick spouse and that expectation is destroyed...and a bunch of the burden is on the caretaker. 

Finally, regarding all the scriptural discussion: nope I doubt if Thorburn is trying to be either saint or martyr. I don't get the impression he is confusing Hosea/Gomer with some obligation to stay with a cheating spouse. From what I can tell, he could choose to focus on his own selfish happiness and look for some other woman, but that would be in DIRECT violation to something that makes him even happier: being able to look himself in the mirror and know that he made the moral choice. Yes there are days when you feel cheated or days when you are angry and days when you just don't want to carry that whole load by yourself, but if you know the right thing is to show another person some undeserved grace, and you know the right thing is to persevere and act in love even when it's not warranted...then you can look yourself in the eye and KNOW that you did what you knew was right even if it's hard! That's so worth it!


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## karole

God Bless you Affaircare!


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## GusPolinski

CynthiaDe said:


> The example of Hosea and Gomer is not what God expects of us. Hosea was a prophet. God asked prophets to do strange things to illustrate His points. If we were expected to do as the prophets did, we would be eating over a fire fueled with our own poop. That is not what God is calling us to do. It is what He specifically called Hosea, only Hosea, to for a very specific purpose.


Thank you!!!


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## jorgegene

"I doubt if Thorburn is trying to be either saint or martyr. I don't get the impression he is confusing Hosea/Gomer with some obligation to stay with a cheating spouse. From what I can tell, he could choose to focus on his own selfish happiness and look for some other woman, but that would be in DIRECT violation to something that makes him even happier: being able to look himself in the mirror and know that he made the moral choice." AFFAIRCARE

I think these are the best comments about his motivations so far.

after some prolonged and tortured analysis, i think, yes, that's it.


----------



## Cynthia

I don't think that Thornburn is following the example of Hosea. That's not why I explained about the prophets. I wanted to clear up some confusion.

There is a lot more to this situation than his relationship with his wife.

#1 There is a character issue. We all know that Thornburn has a strong moral character. This is what many people admire about him.

There is also the fact that if they divorce his finances will tank.
If his wife needs care, someone will have to care for her. I wouldn't want to shift that burden to my children or even my spouse's family, if I were in similar circumstances. Maybe that is a factor for him too.
She doesn't seem to be demanding or rude towards him, which would help make it easier to bear.
Maybe he likes her company.

Are you content in your situation, Thornburn?


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## Truthseeker1

@Thorburn How are you doing today?


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## Truthseeker1

Affaircare said:


> Folks,
> 
> I'm speaking as a person who is also caring for a VERY ill spouse, and I can honestly say that much of what Thorburn writes resonates with me as well. In our instance I was the Disloyal Spouse and my Dear Hubby was the Loyal Spouse, so yes of course a portion of my thinking is that it is right and reasonable for me to spend the rest of my life taking care of him.
> 
> But I think what many people are overlooking is that it's not necessarily only the infidelity that defines a couple and their marriage. For example, Dear Hubby and I have not been intimate in the traditional "missionary" type style in years because he just physically can not do that. But that is not the only way that intimacy is defined for us: we are also intimate emotionally and mentally and verbally--and on the physical front we get creative! The point is that I have a choice. I could look at what I don't have and get all upset and say to myself that I deserve to be happy and spend my "happy golden years" with someone who can go camping and go to car shows with me (activities we used to love to do)... -OR- ... I can instead choose to look at all I do have and find happiness in spending my "happy golden years" with the man I've spent my child-raising years and mid-life years and menopause years with, and adapt to things we CAN still do together and enjoy doing those new things.
> 
> Many of the things Thorburn writes about are frustrating, indeed. But the frustration is from being both someone's spouse and their nurse. It confuses things and issues get intermingled, especially things like forgiving and healing from an affair and then pretty much immediately jumping into nurse-mode. Has Thorburn forgiven his wife? Who knows--that is for him to choose. Right now I think a larger part of his frustration is that we have a vision of our 50's/60's as "Woohoo, empty nest, house to ourselves and free time to travel and do stuff together" and suddenly we have a sick spouse and that expectation is destroyed...and a bunch of the burden is on the caretaker.
> 
> Finally, regarding all the scriptural discussion: nope I doubt if Thorburn is trying to be either saint or martyr. I don't get the impression he is confusing Hosea/Gomer with some obligation to stay with a cheating spouse. *From what I can tell, he could choose to focus on his own selfish happiness and look for some other woman, but that would be in DIRECT violation to something that makes him even happier: being able to look himself in the mirror and know that he made the moral choice. * Yes there are days when you feel cheated or days when you are angry and days when you just don't want to carry that whole load by yourself, but if you know the right thing is to show another person some undeserved grace, and you know the right thing is to persevere and act in love even when it's not warranted...then you can look yourself in the eye and KNOW that you did what you knew was right even if it's hard! That's so worth it!


Wonderful post but I quibble with one point - if Thornburn did choose to focus on his own happiness that would not make him selfish and I would not hold it against him. his wife is getting WAY more than she deserves - WAY more.


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## Thorburn

Affaircare said:


> Folks,
> 
> I'm speaking as a person who is also caring for a VERY ill spouse, and I can honestly say that much of what Thorburn writes resonates with me as well. In our instance I was the Disloyal Spouse and my Dear Hubby was the Loyal Spouse, so yes of course a portion of my thinking is that it is right and reasonable for me to spend the rest of my life taking care of him.
> 
> But I think what many people are overlooking is that it's not necessarily only the infidelity that defines a couple and their marriage. For example, Dear Hubby and I have not been intimate in the traditional "missionary" type style in years because he just physically can not do that. But that is not the only way that intimacy is defined for us: we are also intimate emotionally and mentally and verbally--and on the physical front we get creative! The point is that I have a choice. I could look at what I don't have and get all upset and say to myself that I deserve to be happy and spend my "happy golden years" with someone who can go camping and go to car shows with me (activities we used to love to do)... -OR- ... I can instead choose to look at all I do have and find happiness in spending my "happy golden years" with the man I've spent my child-raising years and mid-life years and menopause years with, and adapt to things we CAN still do together and enjoy doing those new things.
> 
> Many of the things Thorburn writes about are frustrating, indeed. But the frustration is from being both someone's spouse and their nurse. It confuses things and issues get intermingled, especially things like forgiving and healing from an affair and then pretty much immediately jumping into nurse-mode. Has Thorburn forgiven his wife? Who knows--that is for him to choose. Right now I think a larger part of his frustration is that we have a vision of our 50's/60's as "Woohoo, empty nest, house to ourselves and free time to travel and do stuff together" and suddenly we have a sick spouse and that expectation is destroyed...and a bunch of the burden is on the caretaker.
> 
> Finally, regarding all the scriptural discussion: nope I doubt if Thorburn is trying to be either saint or martyr. I don't get the impression he is confusing Hosea/Gomer with some obligation to stay with a cheating spouse. From what I can tell, he could choose to focus on his own selfish happiness and look for some other woman, but that would be in DIRECT violation to something that makes him even happier: being able to look himself in the mirror and know that he made the moral choice. Yes there are days when you feel cheated or days when you are angry and days when you just don't want to carry that whole load by yourself, but if you know the right thing is to show another person some undeserved grace, and you know the right thing is to persevere and act in love even when it's not warranted...then you can look yourself in the eye and KNOW that you did what you knew was right even if it's hard! That's so worth it!


This is well spoken and more or less nails it.

Thanks, AF


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## bandit.45

Thorburn, I'm teaching myself _Tateguya._...Japanese joinery. 

You have to try it. It will change your life. It is extremely peaceful and time flies when you do it. I find it very comforting to do when I'm stressed.


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> Thorburn, I'm teaching myself _Tateguya._...Japanese joinery.
> 
> You have to try it. It will change your life. It is extremely peaceful and time flies when you do it. I find it very comforting to do when I'm stressed.


I have used a Japanese saw for finish work. Never used a Japanese chisel, plane or other Japanese wood working tools. 

Will have to put this on my bucket list of tools that I would like to buy.


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## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> I have used a Japanese saw for finish work. Never used a Japanese chisel, plane or other Japanese wood working tools.
> 
> Will have to put this on my bucket list of tools that I would like to buy.


I went to Amazon and bought this 10 piece set: 

http://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-G7102-Japanese-Chisels-10-Piece/dp/B0000DD636/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1439329742&sr=8-21&keywords=japanese+woodWORKING

All in all about 20 buck a chisel, but the great thing about them is that they are carbon steel...not case hardened, so they are easy to keep an edge and resharpen. As long as you use DON'T them on super-hard woods, don't hit a nail or anything, they work splendidly. 

Then you want one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Chisel-Hammer-16-Oz/dp/B000B9Y5E2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1439330059&sr=8-3&keywords=japanese+woodWORKING+mallet

And then a good plane...

SENKICHI Kanna 65mm Japanese Wood Block Plane Carpenter's Tool - - Amazon.com


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## bandit.45

Oh and get this book: 

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Japanese-Joinery-Kiyosi-Seike/dp/0834815168/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1439330271&sr=8-2&keywords=japanese+joinery


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## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> I went to Amazon and bought this 10 piece set:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-G7102-Japanese-Chisels-10-Piece/dp/B0000DD636/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1439329742&sr=8-21&keywords=japanese+woodWORKING
> 
> All in all about 20 buck a chisel, but the great thing about them is that they are carbon steel...not case hardened, so they are easy to keep an edge and resharpen. As long as you use DON'T them on super-hard woods, don't hit a nail or anything, they work splendidly.
> 
> Then you want one of these:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Chisel-Hammer-16-Oz/dp/B000B9Y5E2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1439330059&sr=8-3&keywords=japanese+woodWORKING+mallet
> 
> And then a good plane...
> 
> SENKICHI Kanna 65mm Japanese Wood Block Plane Carpenter's Tool - - Amazon.com


LOL Bandit, the catalog I have from Lee Valley has a set of 6 Japanese chisels for around $500.00 and planes for about $400.00 each that I have been eyeing up. 

I have noticed as I have moved up from the dollar store chisels and planes that they work better. LOL

I have a Miller Falls Jack plane that works great. Got it for free. 

I have a few Stanley planes that are junk at the present time because the person who had them before me did not take care of them and they are in a state of rehab (I have not had the time to fix them).


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## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> LOL Bandit, the catalog I have from Lee Valley has a set of 6 Japanese chisels for around $500.00 and planes for about $400.00 each that I have been eyeing up.
> 
> I have noticed as I have moved up from the dollar store chisels and planes that they work better. LOL
> 
> I have a Miller Falls Jack plane that works great. Got it for free.
> 
> I have a few Stanley planes that are junk at the present time because the person who had them before me did not take care of them and they are in a state of rehab (I have not had the time to fix them).


I get a hard-on talking about tools...:grin2:

I'm eyeing a sweet Jet 16" open stand planer... The guy bought it for $2000 and he only wants $700 for it. Its practically brand new! Just waiting for some reimbursement checks to come in and it is mine!....


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## Skrya

I have been reading your post tonight and it seems you got the exact opposite of me, I hope she recovers atleast enough to enjoy your years left together. My heart breaks for you both and you are one outstanding man. RAWR lol


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## Thinkitthrough

Thorburn: Years ago I was in a discussion with Philosophy students trying to define what a virtuous man would look like. They decided that a virtuous man was one who was called to do a thing that was difficult to do, contrary to his best interests and had a limited chance of success and that he did it because it was the right thing to do and he had, because of who he was, a need to do the right thing, no matter the cost. You are, sir, such a man. I have not posted to your threads, though I have read your advice and I have the greatest respect and admiration for you. There are few men your equal.


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## eastsouth2000

there is a special place for mr thorburn in heaven. 

mr thorburn has restored my faith in humanity

you inspire me to do good!

one day when troubles come, i hope that i can be as strong as you!


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