# Male Incentive for Marriage?



## YinPrincess

Woman's thread about female proposal got my husband and I talking about marriage - and why men would do it... I personally cannot think of any reason for a man to get married unless he wants "legitimate" children... My husband couldn't think of any reasons, either, that couldn't be covered by a couple merely co-habitating. (These reasons included sex, (I know - just an idea), combining of finances, companionship and having shared household responsibilities).

So what incentive does a man really have to get married these days? It seems like he risks so much for so little benefit... And if the marriage fails he could potentially have more to lose...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma

It`s not very romantic at all but my incentive for marriage was my wifes sense of security.

She`d never had anything to make her feel as if her world couldn`t come crashing down at any minute.

I wanted a child, she already had two and their father was a deadbeat who did nothing but make her life difficult.
She wouldn`t have had my child without the security she saw in marriage.

Marriage for me was and still is a huge risk and roll of the dice.
I left myself entirely at her mercy because it`s what she needed to build a family with me.

I haven`t gained a thing from marriage I couldn`t have gained without it except the woman I love.

That`s enough for me to justify the risk and the sacrifices.


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## that_girl

Well my husband and I got married to prove our parents wrong. lol.

We were fine just living together, although, maybe some men get married so they don't lose their women.


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## YinPrincess

I see. I think that's why my husband married me, although we didn't start out with the idea of children in the picture.

He says he just wanted to live with me and I wouldn't let him until we were married. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartsbeating

I never planned on getting married. I wanted him though. I never had the dream of marriage and no religious view with it. We were living together, combined finances, property etc. If we'd broken up pre-marriage, where we live at least, we would be treated much the same a married couple with regards to division of assets.

Marriage became more important to him. I said yes without hesitation but the love and our relationship felt the same to me, before and after marriage. We had a conversation the other day, whereby I was realizing part of my personality had him essentially 'chasing' me, without me consciously doing this and we talked how there was a delicate balance of him wanting me yet I was always a tad elusive (for lack of better word). I never doubted him or our love. It's just the way I was. 

He mentioned times where he expressed how much he WANTED me ....including for marriage. And what became clear to me was his needs had changed. While he likes when I'm somewhat 'independent' he also needs to KNOW that he has stability with me. I think my marrying him helped him see that I am there with him. 

For my husband, it's a sign of our love, commitment and stability, and perhaps reassurance. Either way, there's something cool about being Mrs Batman.


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## Unhappy2011

YinPrincess said:


> Woman's thread about female proposal got my husband and I talking about marriage - and why men would do it... I personally cannot think of any reason for a man to get married unless he wants "legitimate" children... My husband couldn't think of any reasons, either, that couldn't be covered by a couple merely co-habitating. (These reasons included sex, (I know - just an idea), combining of finances, companionship and having shared household responsibilities).
> 
> So what incentive does a man really have to get married these days? It seems like he risks so much for so little benefit... And if the marriage fails he could potentially have more to lose...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ahh...a woman who thinks like a man. Always refreshing.

There's a lot of men who think this actually. Especially when the alternative of being a womanizing playboy is there.

You do wonder as a man, why would I want this. 

But I think marriage is good if two people are settled in life, share common goals, interests and values and truly love each other and want to build a life together. 

But that takes a mature man to realize. I doubt most guys in their 20s realize those things. 

But there is a lot of social, communal and sometimes family pressure to get married. As well as from the girl.

And most of us are ignorant about relationships and learn painful lessons that may be more inhibiting if not properly addressed and worked through.

So unfortunately, I think a lot of people make mistakes, and thus marriage gets a bad rap.


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## Conrad

There is no reason.

Especially if your partner simply refuses to be nice to you and insists on "putting you in your place"


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## YinPrincess

Not even to have "legitimate" children? LoL!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

Children are always legitimate. It's the parents who are bastards.

My oldest isn't 'legitimate'....but wtf? She's still alive and real. lol! Not any less of a human because her father is a tool.


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## Mistys dad

Marriage rates are falling.

Many men are "opting out" because of the financial and legal ramifications of a marriage gone wrong.

Just google marriage strike.


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## tacoma

Mistys dad said:


> Marriage rates are falling.
> 
> Many men are "opting out" because of the financial and legal ramifications of a marriage gone wrong.
> 
> Just google marriage strike.



The articles I`ve read show women just as gun-shy as the men.

Can`t say I blame them.


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## YinPrincess

That_Girl - didn't mean to offend, I just meant having children within marriage - kind of an old-fashioned idea, but really the only one I could think of for a man to get married? No judgments here... There are plenty of "illegitimate" kids in my family lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mistys dad

tacoma said:


> The articles I`ve read show women just as gun-shy as the men.
> 
> Can`t say I blame them.


True enough.

The institution of marriage has become a financial negative. 

Social morays about sex have pretty much disappeared. 

Women are more financially stable and less dependent than ever before.

More children are being born outside of marriage than ever.

Maybe it is the end of marriage.


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## tacoma

Mistys dad said:


> True enough.
> 
> The institution of marriage has become a financial negative.
> 
> Social morays about sex have pretty much disappeared.
> 
> Women are more financially stable and less dependent than ever before.
> 
> More children are being born outside of marriage than ever.
> 
> Maybe it is the end of marriage.


Maybe that`s not such a bad thing.
I don`t know.


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## Jellybeans

I wish I had a wife. Seriously. Someone to cook and clean and help pay the bills and maintain a home and decorate and entertain and pick up my drycleaning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

YinPrincess said:


> So what incentive does a man really have to get married these days? It seems like he risks so much for so little benefit


 Omg .... what? I thought this post was being sarcastic. This post is just :/ to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## YinPrincess

I'm not being sarcastic at all... Seems like women have lots of incentives to get married - financial security and children - that I can think of right off the bat... But what's in it for a man? Especially if the woman loses interest in intimacy? 

I'm just sayin' - I really feel for the guys... Even my husband says there is really no reason to if he's getting sex, combined finances, shared responsibilities, etc. With a live-in as opposed to a spouse. (I didn't know he felt that way when we got married, but I actually kind of agree with him).

I guess it's the old "why buy the cow if the milk is free" adage. :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog

Why? People are stupid and afraid and don't want to spend their nights alone in the cave listening to the alpha carnivores circle the entrance and waiting for the fire to die down.


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## tacoma

Jellybeans said:


> I wish I had a wife. Seriously. Someone to cook and clean and help pay the bills and maintain a home and decorate and entertain and pick up my drycleaning.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I could simply hire a maid for less money.

But I wouldn`t, I have no problem doing these things for myself.


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## Jellybeans

Good for you, Tacoma. A lot of men don't. I still can't believe this thread. Especially coming from a woman. Yin you said "children and financial security" were incentives for women...but...the children belong to the couple, not one party.... re; financial security: its 50/50 in divorce. And I didn't get anywhere near that in my own D. Just...wow. "Women do nothing and reap everything and poor men...there's really nothing in it for them if they get marred." Its like the Twilight Zone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## YinPrincess

I was just wondering and thought I'd ask. There isn't much you can get out of marriage that you can't get with a live-in partner. I just wanted to know what those few things were. Am I just naïve here? :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog

People who are legally married get to legally pull the plug on one another if it comes to that.


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## Jellybeans

Lol Runs
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma

Jellybeans said:


> Good for you, Tacoma. A lot of men don't. I still can't believe this thread. Especially coming from a woman. Yin you said "children and financial security" were incentives for women...but...the children belong to the couple, not one party.... re; financial security: its 50/50 in divorce. And I didn't get anywhere near that in my own D. Just...wow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



JB more often then not the default position for child custody is the woman.
Children are the number one reason men stay in miserable marriages.They know unless their wife is unfit they really haven`t a chance of gaining custody.

Same with money.

Even a 50/50 split leaves me on the short end of the stick.
Every penny we have saved is directly due to my income.
So I essentially lose 1/2 of what I`ve earned.

I see very little incentive if any really for a man in marriage.
The upside is I`m starting to see very little incentive for woman in marriage as well.

As a previous poster stated, maybe this is the beginning of the end of the institution.


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## Conrad

Jellybeans said:


> I wish I had a wife. Seriously. Someone to cook and clean and help pay the bills and maintain a home and decorate and entertain and pick up my drycleaning.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You think she would?


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## Jellybeans

If she was anything like I was as a wife, she would do all that and more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog

Well to me it's an odd question. Men want love and life long companionship and trust and faith just like you ovarians.


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## tacoma

Runs like Dog said:


> Well to me it's an odd question. Men want love and life long companionship and trust and faith just like you ovarians.


This can`t be had without marriage?

The OPs base question was what is the benefit of marriage opposed to a LTR for a man?

I`d argue the trust and faith is shallow if it needs the threat of an ugly divorce to keep it intact.

So arguably a committed LTR is showing more trust and faith than a marriage since it relies on nothing but desire opposed to legal ramifications for failure.


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## Runs like Dog

I don't know. What I do know is that there @ TAM there's a large number of people who talk about their own very very long term common law relationships who, for whatever reason decide after years to get married and all the nuclear sh^t hits the fan. So clearly something is was different for THEM. I imagine for every couple the details are ineffable, hard to describe, but at a holistic view they're all the same reason. Maybe if you asked 50 men you'd get 50 answers, but in the end they all more or less signify the same thing - stability. What's in it for men? The end game, the pursuit is over and the target has been acquired and locked down. What's in it for men is the women.


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## Mistys dad

What I learned from marriage:

2 cinder blocks and a piece of lumber is definitely NOT furniture.

"Dogs playing poker" is NOT art.

Beer is not a breakfast food.

Parking a motorcycle in the living room during a storm is, for some reason, not appropriate.

No wonder marriage is confusing....sigh.....


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## tacoma

Runs like Dog said:


> What's in it for men? The end game, the pursuit is over and the target has been acquired and locked down. *What's in it for men is the women*.


That`s pretty much all I got out of it at great personal cost.

I`m not *****ing and am incredibly lucky to have a woman like my wife.

I believe the cost was well worth it, I just don`t think it should be disregarded.

However my wife knows and doesn`t take it for granted.
She`s told me many times she`s aware of what I`ve done and sacrificed to be with her.

Thing is I don`t see it as a "sacrifice" I truly feel like I got a bargain but I believe that has to do with my "luck" in choosing a wife.
Many men in similar positions as I weren`t so lucky.


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## I Know

She was going to KILL me if I didn't pop the question after 4 years of dating. 

I personally would not have kids unless I were married. If you can't even commit to a marriage do you really even have what it takes to take a lifelong commitment to kids? 

Even without kids tho, marriage is a powerful symbolic statement of intent. A marriage is a public commitment. And it can be very powerful in keeping a relationship together. Remember the quit smoking advice to publicly declare to your friends that you are quitting? Studies show it helps keep the commitment. Publicly declaring your intent w/ marriage does the same thing. 

Logically you are right tho. As a man it seems like the divorce system is stacked against the males.


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## Anubis

What's more interesting is how the risk/liability to reward/benefit ratios have shifted away from benefiting men over the past 50 years.

Several different factors have contributed significantly.

In my eyes, the "cost" of divorce is the biggest as it seems completely out of touch with the times. And I don't mean just the money, which is significant, but the custody and legal aspects as well. 

In many parts of the country, a man can marry at age 21, get divorced at age 31 and be paying significant alimony to an ex-wife cheated repeated on him until she dies at age 90. (until last year in Massachusetts his new wife could have her wages garnished to pay his ex should his income falter/he loses his job). 

During that time, the family law system is heavily stacked against him with regards to his children. In some places it's possible to have to pay child support until the child is age 26, with no way to determine if any of the money is ever going to the child's needs.

With regards to the law, many men have gone to jail *automatically* because of unsubstantiated claims made against them by their wives and ex-wives. The 'system' presumes mail guilt and female innocence and victimhood, despite numerous studios that show women are as much, if not more, the abusers.

I could go on. It's depressing.

I'm amazed that I am willing to tie the knot a second time. I think I am crazy.


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## Jellybeans

I Know
Even without kids tho said:


> And yet half of all marriages end in divorce.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

I will say, as much as we didn't want to get married, to say our vows in front of our best lovies (about 20 people on the beach) was very emotional and bonding for us.


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## Tall Average Guy

tacoma said:


> That`s pretty much all I got out of it at great personal cost.
> 
> I`m not *****ing and am incredibly lucky to have a woman like my wife.
> 
> I believe the cost was well worth it, I just don`t think it should be disregarded.
> 
> However my wife knows and doesn`t take it for granted.
> She`s told me many times she`s aware of what I`ve done and sacrificed to be with her.
> 
> Thing is I don`t see it as a "sacrifice" I truly feel like I got a bargain but I believe that has to do with my "luck" in choosing a wife.
> Many men in similar positions as I weren`t so lucky.


I feel very much the same. Marriage was the next step for my wife. She wanted that final committment, if you will, for us to continue. We also talked about her desire to be a SAHM, at least while the kids were young. It was important to her, and while less important to me, I was in agreement. She very reasonably was unwilling to quit her job and rely on me without marriage. That was a level of trust and vulnerability that she just could not reach. I don't blame her.

There has been a cost, in that I am the sole breadwinner and have had to share the money I make with her. Yet I also don't see if as a sacrifice or unfair because she appreciates me and what I do *and * because she cares her share of the load. She keeps the house and the kids in line. I pitch in when I get home and on weekends, but she views this as her job and her responsibility. I don't resent it because I see her working right next to me, albeit in different areas.

So what is my benefit? I get her.

Edit - Although I am clearly being taken advantage of, because my wife makes me pick up my own dry cleaning.


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## tobio

Ah what an apt thread. I wonder what my OH would have to say... Oh yeah: nothing.

Okay so being slightly tongue-in-cheek there but I might ask him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uphillbattle

Jellybeans said:


> I wish I had a wife. Seriously. Someone to cook and clean and help pay the bills and maintain a home and decorate and entertain and pick up my drycleaning.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, because all wives do this?


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## Jellybeans

Not, not all. Though still... I wish I had a wife.


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## DocHoliday

If you have to ask this question.. I know you do not understand what a marriage is.

Love, Emotional support, kids, health insurance, financial security+ stability - a partner to retire with, someone who is willing to commit to loving your soul...for better or worse..who will provide support and PROTECTION emotionally, physically (we all can have illness), legally ......

you know the rest.

...<<ah, hew>>. Same old rant, same old complaints....
... Important newsflash....Important newsflash....

If you want your freedom, and do not want to put anothers/partnerships intrest above your own intrest, don't want kids, nor need health insurance, a retirement partner (for money and/or companionship), have no religious beliefs concerning partnerships, think that raising children/step kids is as big a commitment as raising a puppy AND LIKE having the option of changing partners w/o legal entanglemnets..

Do the entire world a favor and stay single.

Sorry, I am just crabby today.....


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## YinPrincess

Yeah - that was really out of context, thanks.

I love my husband, and I love that he IS my husband! When we got to talking about it though, we discovered there really is no reason to get married anymore. I'm glad we are and I respect my vows to him - but we really had no reason to get married other than for the heck of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nice777guy

that_girl said:


> Children are always legitimate. It's the parents who are bastards.


Wow! :smthumbup: :iagree:


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## DocHoliday

YP

Just wondering. How long have you been married? 
(P.S. I was not directing my response to you.)


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## LovesHerMan

I like Willard Harley's analogy of renters vs buyers. People who live together are renters who say to themselves that they can leave the relationship when things get tough. Buyers try harder to work through problems because they are committed to the relationship no matter what.

Obviously with the current divorce rate many people consider themselves renters despite being married.

In addition, ask any child if he wants his parents to be married. There is the important aspect of permanency that gives a child security. The concept of family is missing when people just live together.

Like a previous poster said, the public and legal aspect of marriage is very important to how spouses view their relationship.


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## Ten_year_hubby

YinPrincess said:


> I was just wondering and thought I'd ask. There isn't much you can get out of marriage that you can't get with a live-in partner. I just wanted to know what those few things were. Am I just naïve here? :/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


YP,

I think you're cute. To start out with, men statistically increase their lifespan when they get married. I don't even assign that a value on my spreadsheet but it seem like it should be pretty valuable.

Although society has gone out of its way to make marriage appear less appealing, even bigger in my humble opinion is the way women's work outside the home is treated. I honestly can't understand why any rational man would have his wife stay at home rather than be out working, maybe even at two jobs or one with a lot of overtime. I'm fine with cooking and cleaning or paying someone (other than my wife) to do it out of our joint income. Whether we like it or admit it, every marriage carries a balance sheet regarding how everything would be divided if the partners dissolved today. Having your wife stay home and earn no income puts the most financial burden on the man of all the possible alternatives. Unless you think you owe this gift to your kids, it doesn't make any sense.


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## YinPrincess

Doc - I've been married for 16 months... Quite the newbie! 

I'm inquisitive as ever, I just don't want to offend people - but I guess my train of thought had been leading me to believe there isn't anything special about marriage anymore. People used to get married to start families, (for example) but people have families now without marriage, and it's quite common! Or to live together! I told my husband he could not live with me before we got married... He liked that I'm "old-fashioned" and I wanted our relationship to start out the "right" way - ( well, we only dated for 41 days and had premarital sex - so maybe not extremely "right") but I felt the need to establish some kind of values after my last relationship. We started off as friends, for several years before getting involved and I think it was good for us.

So maybe I'm a confused mix of conservative vs. liberal... Either way the bottom line is, we could have each had what we wanted without marriage, but we chose to marry anyways. I'm glad we did now, because I became pregnant last year, and I'm glad it was within the context of marriage - and I am NOT knocking anyone with children out of wedlock - just saying if I have kids I would prefer it be with my husband.

I think some may have misinterpreted my curiosity a bit, but that's all it is - curiosity... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DocHoliday

It is a rationale of buyers and renters. 

I also hate to see the risk/benefits of mariage as a "male pro/con benefit" issue. Hello, yeah, Marriage is a RISK.

Men seem to be willingly nullifying their own importance/role in our society. ( I am a proponet of personal descisions of marriage, the single life and short and long term partnerships.)

..but under no circumstance should you confuse or attrubute the benefits of one for the other. 
They are not equal, they are not the same thing. Each has benefilts, each has risks.


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## DocHoliday

YP
Ask any Mortician, Personal (will) Lawyer, Insurance person, Work benefits program, Bio children, ex-spouses, mothers, fathers and extended family if a marriage certificate means anything. That should get you an answer, right there.


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## DocHoliday

Ah, Grasshopper.... you have much to learn....


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## that_girl

Marriage is a risk for anyone, male or female.

A woman who decides (along with her husband) to stay home and raise children takes a HUGE risk in not being able to support herself should something happen to their marriage or mate.


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## Kobo

Jellybeans said:


> Not, not all. Though still... I wish I had a wife.


You do know that there are a ton of husbands who share the work of running a home equally with their wives? There are also a ton of wives that share the financial burden of a household equally with their husbands. Neither of which should be the reason for getting into a legally binding contract that has the potential to hurt you financially and emotionally down the road. 

The only real incentive for a man to get married is to let the woman he loves know she has his heart. The reverse should be the incentive for a woman also.


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## YinPrincess

Yes I do! 

The renter/buyer analogy works, but in a literal sense you have more to gain by buying vs. renting - do you think the same is true for marriage?

Does anyone really value/respect it anymore???

*interesting stat on married men living longer - will have to share that with my hubby!

Speaking of him, he told me last night that he was glad I "told" him we were getting married because it never would have been his idea. He freely admitted that we could have dated for 80 years and he probably would have never even thought of proposing. I asked why and he said simply, "no reason to." That's what got us on the whole incentive for marriage thing to begin with...

So why get married at all?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

I respect marriage. Hubs respects marriage...that's why we never wanted to do it...we hadn't met anyone that we'd be serious enough to take vows with.

 Until we met each other.


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## YinPrincess

that_girl said:


> A woman who decides (along with her husband) to stay home and raise children takes a HUGE risk in not being able to support herself should something happen to their marriage or mate.


I am feeling this very strongly at the moment...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kobo

that_girl said:


> Marriage is a risk for anyone, male or female.
> 
> A woman who decides (along with her husband) to stay home and raise children takes a HUGE risk in not being able to support herself should something happen to their marriage or mate.


You guys are going from incentives to risks.


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## Tall Average Guy

that_girl said:


> Marriage is a risk for anyone, male or female.
> 
> A woman who decides (along with her husband) to stay home and raise children takes a HUGE risk in not being able to support herself should something happen to their marriage or mate.


I live in a state where common-law marriage is not recognized. For my wife to stay at home to raise the kids, marriage was a requirement for her, one which I completely understand. It does not eliminate all of the risks, but does reduce them for her.


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## that_girl

Well, someone said marriage is a gamble and I associate gamble with risk.

My incentive for marrying my husband was emotional security. 

And his last name  LOL


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## JonEll

In today's legal climate, the man puts his nads in a vice the moment he slips that ring on her finger. It is very unfortunate that men are guilty until proven innocent, and that's something we desperately need to change (Not to make marriage more disposable, but to stop abuse). 

HOWEVER, Marriage isn't really about, "What's in it for ME?" it never has been, and if you approach it in that manner, it just won't add up...ever. 

The big question is: What does marriage mean to you personally? Just make sure the answer doesn't involve anything like, "cuz somebody else tells me I ought to" 

For me? My W. Rocks, I love her & I'll do anything I can to help her feel safe. This doesn't mean that I am a whipped doormat, or that we don't have our ups & downs, trust me there's plenty of that. It just provides an _additional_ sense of stability. Not only for her, but for our children as well. For me - that's a win.


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## that_girl

Yes. For our kids, this is a good thing.

I hated growing up in a broken home. My older daughter asked me all the time to get married to her dad LOL right.

But my marriage now sets a good model for my girls.


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## Halien

YinPrincess said:


> So what incentive does a man really have to get married these days? It seems like he risks so much for so little benefit... And if the marriage fails he could potentially have more to lose...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Who else is gonna' cover my backside during the zombie apocalypse?

But seriously, its sad that women would instinctively equate marriage to being burdened with more chores, more cleaning, more work. Yeah, it also stinks that divorce is often very unfair for men, too. I really wish more people would see that good pre-marital counseling can sometimes completely transform our understanding of marriage going into it. Before counseling, I saw it more or less as just the obligatory next step, but my eyes were opened to how much work it takes, but also the rewards from a deliberate approach. In a dreaded worst case scenario, divorce would still grant my wife an exclusive, cozy retirement from my retirement accounts, but I could never say that she hasn't really enriched my life, despite the problems along the way. Its worth it.


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## that_girl

I clean as much as I did before marriage.

I was a full adult on my own before marriage.


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## tacoma

So after 5 pages we`ve pretty much come to the conclusion that the only incentive for a man to marry is....his wife.

I kinda like that.


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## YinPrincess

Same here. I had my ex live with me off and on for a time, but I've been on my own since I was 16. The cleaning part only increases when you have someone else to pick up after! LoL! 

I'm glad I learned to live on my own and be self-reliant before marriage. There are times when I miss the solitude, but I'm glad my husband is here with me to help out around the house and caring for our "kids" (the doggies). I have to say he pulls more than his fair share around the house and doesn't complain about it. It's nice not having to do it all by yourself. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## YinPrincess

tacoma said:


> So after 5 pages we`ve pretty much come to the conclusion that the only incentive for a man to marry is....his wife.
> 
> I kinda like that.


I concur! Surprising to me, but a wonderful conclusion!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrankKissel

As someone who spent nearly 20 years working in the court system, I can assure you that for every one of these 'woe is me' stories we hear about men who get screwed in family court, there are at least as many, if not more, women out there who after divorce are left with kids to raise, few good job prospects and an ex who offers little to none parental and financial support.

This isn't to suggest that some guys don't get the shaft. Some do. But it's hardly the one-way street that some like to pretend it is.

As for the male incentive? It should be no different that the female: security (financial and otherwise) and a generally far superior environment in which to raise a family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## YinPrincess

I'm glad you included that, Frank. My own mother was one those women who got the shaft. She was working 60 hours a week with 4 kids to raise while my dad and his mistress (now wife) went on cruises, to country clubs and traveled. I raised my siblings because my mom was never around. Fed them, bathed them, helped them with homework, put them to bed at night and walked them to the bus-stop in the morning for school. I was 13. I resented both of my parents for a long time because of this, but now I understand that my mom was busting her ass to feed us because my dad didn't give a damn. I wish I had complained less back then.

My mom was dedicated to him for 16 years, bore four kids by him, helped get through school, worked and raised a family. And he left us all behind for a psychotic floosy.

Their marriage was a major influence on my hatred of the institution early on in my life. But I'm wiser now and less narrow-minded, I think.

My younger brother is a single father. He has raised his son on his own since he was 4 weeks old. He gets no support from his ex-wife - she's too crazy to hold down a job of any sort and has three kids by three different men and my brother is the only one who has anything to do with his son. He even tried to legally adopt her older son, but the courts granted custody to ex-wife's crazy mother. (Hello, she couldn't raise her own daughter right, why should she get the grandson)?

Good people get the short end all the time. It's sad and it's unfair, but it's life. That's what happens when you're vulnerable, unfortunately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## heartsbeating

Everyone's view on this will be different, related to upbringing, perhaps religion etc. 

Personally I don't agree with the "buying vs renting" analogy. I'm not renting or buying a relationship. I never intended on marrying anyone, but was living completely intertwined with my (now) husband. We have been together longer than many married couples. We always knew it was just about each other - and the reason we were together was because we wanted to be, not because we had a somewhat "obligation" to be. I understand this view likely won't be shared amongst many here, on a marriage forum lol, but hey, different strokes for different folks is all I'm saying. 

I was never "renting" before "buying". I knew we loved each other, we knew we wanted to be together. Do I respect marriage? ....hmm for me, it's better answered that I respect my man and respect our relationship. 

Am I glad that I'm married? Yes. I am proud to be Mrs Batman. Our wedding ceremony was an intimate celebration of our love. We were already promised to each other in our hearts though. I'd be just as proud without the Mrs title ....it's always been about him and I.


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## heartsbeating

tacoma said:


> So after 5 pages we`ve pretty much come to the conclusion that the only incentive for a man to marry is....his wife.
> 
> I kinda like that.


I do like this too.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

YinPrincess said:


> ... I personally cannot think of any reason for a man to get married unless he wants "legitimate" children... My husband couldn't think of any reasons, either, that couldn't be covered by a couple merely co-habitating. (These reasons included sex, (I know - just an idea), combining of finances, companionship and having shared household responsibilities).
> 
> So what incentive does a man really have to get married these days? It seems like he risks so much for so little benefit... And if the marriage fails he could potentially have more to lose...


 I agree with you ! And it is very sad, isn't it !! I have 5 sons, my 1st 2 believe strongly in marraige, they both wear their silver purity rings proudly & believe in waiting to have sex. This is so very very rare in today's society, they are probably looked upon as freaks. How sad. For them, Marrying is the moral upright setting for a shared sexual relationship where 2 become one, they desire wives who see it as sacred as they do. It is what is best for the wife, and the children created from such a Union - joined and recognized by family and surrounding community. 

Yeah , I have taught my kids to be Traditionalists for the most part....it appears to be a dying unnecessary thing anymore. 


I'm one of the few on here who can say my husband had incentive to marry me cause he wasn't getting "the milk for free". I held to my sexual boundaries, he'd still be getting hand jobs if he didn't walk me down the aisle. He was more than ready to move on to the whole glorious deal. But it was so much more than that. He LOVED me, wanted to make me his -officially - give me that sense of security, he wanted me to take his name, he was proud to carry me on his arm, something sacred about the whole thing, we had shared dreams, we spent near every waking moment together outside of work anyway. He trusted me impeccably, I trused him.....and Oh the children we planned to make!! 

Marriage is a walk in the Romantic, it has been for us. And the Wedding was so damn much FUN!!


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## Ten_year_hubby

JonEll said:


> In today's legal climate, the man puts his nads in a vice the moment he slips that ring on her finger. It is very unfortunate that men are guilty until proven innocent, and that's something we desperately need to change (Not to make marriage more disposable, but to stop abuse).


Not so true any more. Under the current "no fault divorce" programs in effect in almost all the states, the guilt or innocence of either spouse makes little or no difference in the end. A lot of people, men and women both, are finding this out the hard way. Understanding the court's guidelines for custody decisions can make a big difference though. For example, a man who works fulltime on his job, comes home and repairs, repaints and renovates the house, looks after the cars and the yard and takes care of paying all the bills gets zero credit from the court for child custody. In 2012, a man is best advised to work part time, demand that his wife work as much as possible and pay someone else to maintain the house, cars, yard and do the bill paying (unless the wife wants to do it). The more places his name shows up as the primary contact for the kids, the more he makes his presence known in any and all activities regarding the kids, the better off he is when the hammer falls. The most foolish thing a man can do is spend extra time away from home working so this wife can stay home.


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## Enginerd

I did it because I wanted a family and marriage protects the children to a certain degree. However, I will never do it again. I'm a responsible man with a good career who would lose at least 60% of his wealth in a divorce. I don't think the government or a church should be involved in my marriage and I don't like the current legal definition of marriage. I often joke to my wife that I'm nothing more then a glorified pay check mule in today's society. 

I like the idea of a renewable marriage contract. Every 5-7 years both parties have the right to a no fault divorce where both parties have the option to walk away without financial consequences except for child support. Prenups would be mandatory which would spell out child visitation rights. This way both parties will be more careful about their choices and will make more of an effort while in the marriage since they know "option" day is coming.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Numerous studies how shown men live longer and healthier in a marriage than being single. So there is the health aspect.

For those here who complain about women getting custody of children, that's because of gender roles that many continue to clutch to in that women are the caregivers/nurturers and men are the providers....hence women raise the kids, men pay child support.
If change is to be done and it should, stop with all the gender roles and realize that BOTH sexes are equally capable of raising children and BOTH genders are equally capable of financially providing for them. 
I find it odd that those who cling so hard to gender roles are the ones who are so upset when they only see their kids every other weekend. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. I have men friends and they are VERY nurturing to their kids but the courts would rule against them. 75% of the ELECTED judges are men. If all this BS of men are providers and women are the caregivers gave way of the Dodo bird, men would have equal parenting rights. Why aren't all ya'll rising up? Instead, many are continuing with I am man, here is my role....you are woman....here is yours. What gives? Hell, I wouldn't enter in to a contract where if things went sour I lost access to my kids. Not a chance in hell. So why aren't you men doing more to change the perception?! :scratchhead:


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## Conrad

Our relationship with our mothers sets the stage for so much in our lives. Do you really think that's due to some gender bias?

Seems hereditary to me. Just how we are.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> Our relationship with our mothers sets the stage for so much in our lives. Do you really think that's due to some gender bias?
> 
> Seems hereditary to me. Just how we are.


Not sure I understand you Conrad. So if a man has a good relationship with his mother, he views women as being similar? Or if a man has a bad relationship with his mother, he views women as being bad?
Regardless, women have ALWAYS been seen as being the nurturers/caregivers because that is what our patriarchal society has assigned to them. Childbearers=loves their children. In this model, it only views men as sperm donors and financial supporters. It's disgusting and I ask again, when are men going to cast aside this bs and recognize that they are just as capable as women to be the nurturer? 
All this alpha stuff is okay for mating and manipulating but when you are in court....not so much. I have seen the most wonderful and loving sides of men. They love their children just as much as the mothers. They would die for their children and they DESERVE every damn opportunity to be just as involved in their childrens lives as us women.
Why is clinging to gender roles beneficial to any of us? If anything, don't men miss out more in the parenting portion?!


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## I Know

that_girl said:


> Marriage is a risk for anyone, male or female.
> 
> A woman who decides (along with her husband) to stay home and raise children takes a HUGE risk in not being able to support herself should something happen to their marriage or mate.


Being a SAHM is a huge luxury for her and the spouse. I would argue that it is good for the kids to have the mother available at home until school age too. But don't be a martyr about it. I would encourage you to go to work. 

As a family unit, I believe it is irresponsible for my wife and me to put all of our economic future on the back of my career. People are disposable in today's work world. In a heartbeat I could be out of a job. Then what would we do?


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## that_girl

I Know said:


> Being a SAHM is a huge luxury for her and the spouse. I would argue that it is good for the kids to have the mother available at home until school age too. But don't be a martyr about it. I would encourage you to go to work.
> 
> As a family unit, I believe it is irresponsible for my wife and me to put all of our economic future on the back of my career. People are disposable in today's work world. In a heartbeat I could be out of a job. Then what would we do?


What are you talking about? I said it's a risk for women to spend her life at home, not have work experience, in case something happens to her husband or marriage.

Who is being a martyr? LOL I work full time as a teacher, mister  And I keep house.


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## I Know

that_girl said:


> What are you talking about? I said it's a risk for women to spend her life at home, not have work experience, in case something happens to her husband or marriage.
> 
> Who is being a martyr? LOL I work full time as a teacher, mister  And I keep house.


LOL. Ya schooled me didn't you?

I read between the lines that you were SAHM. Nothing wrong w/ SAHM's but I admire women who work and do it well.


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## that_girl

I Know said:


> LOL. Ya schooled me didn't you?
> 
> I read between the lines that you were SAHM. Nothing wrong w/ SAHM's but I admire women who work and do it well.


I could never stay home full time. I would die.

Luckily, as a teacher, my schedule lets me home for all the breaks and almost when they get out of school. Best of both worlds, imo.


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## FirstYearDown

The idea of steady sex is very attractive to a man. Most women want the social symbol of being a wife, rather than a "babymoms" or a live in. 

So men get married thinking that becoming a husband is a small price to pay for sex that they didn't have to search for. It is a lot of time and energy to prowl bars and look for dates. 

It is also the most socially acceptable way to have a family, no matter how much morals have changed. People still believe that it is better to be married when having children. Most men want to continue their family's line.

Whether a man can do housework or not, it is most often the wife who ends up doing the lion's share of the household duties and raising children. There has definitely been a shift towards a more mutual sharing of chores, but we still have a long way to go in terms of husbands doing as much as wives. You still never see men fussing over decorating the home or having the right serving bowls for company.

I concur with that_girl's views of women depending on men. Though I will never make as much as my husband, furthering my education so that I can earn more money is my new project. He could die or divorce me. Nothing is wrong with being a SAHM, but it is a very vulnerable position for a woman to be in if the marriage goes sour.


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## I Know

FirstYearDown said:


> Whether a man can do housework or not, it is most often the wife who ends up doing the lion's share of the household duties and raising children. There has definitely been a shift towards a more mutual sharing of chores, but we still have a long way to go in terms of husbands doing as much as wives. You still never see men fussing over decorating the home or having the right serving bowls for company.


my wife would divorce me if I started fussing over decorating, towels and serving bowls. 

You are certainly correct about the housework thing. Women typically do far more than men. 

I make no apologies for my input on domestic chores. My wife wanted kids in a big way. I did not. I made it pretty clear before we had any that I would not be taxi-ing kids around and having playdates with other parents, shopping for kids clothes(please kill me before I have to do that). So she voluntarily assumed more responsibility in the domestic department. I do more than many men, but certainly not 1/2. 

It's our deal and it has worked for 25 years. Everyone is happy.


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## heartsbeating

I asked my husband this question. He said sure, stability and feeling rooted... but he continued there's ofcourse no guarantee with that stability, married or not, so he concluded "It's just a nice thing and can't be expressed in words."


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## sirdano

I did it for a friend to do the things I like do together.


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## Tall Average Guy

FirstYearDown said:


> Whether a man can do housework or not, it is most often the wife who ends up doing the lion's share of the household duties and raising children. There has definitely been a shift towards a more mutual sharing of chores, but we still have a long way to go in terms of husbands doing as much as wives. You still never see men fussing over decorating the home or having the right serving bowls for company.


Not to get too far off tangent, but I suspect at least some portion of the alleged "chore gap" is self made. My wife cares much more about decore in the house. She uses different placemats and guest towels for the seasons, hangs up decorations, etc. She might pull out some fancy glasses for when we are entertaining. I could care less about most of it. I help some, but if those things are going to get done, they are on her. While I don't consider this part of the household chores, I would not be at all surprised in she did.


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## Enchantment

I am sure that each man will likely have their own personal incentive for getting married, just like a woman will.

What is interesting is how marriages and the various incentives have changed throughout time and history. We look at marriage in a very narrow way in our society - that people (typically a man and a woman) should marry for love and companionship and creating a family - that it should be an exclusive relationship and both partners should be more giving to the other.

Historically, this hasn't actually been the view of marriage. In centuries past it was deemed a big problem if the couple loved each other before marriage, and some societies believed that love could/should come after marriage. In yet others, exclusiveness was not mandatory - it was assumed that both spouses would have outside lovers.

This thread came up at an interesting time, because I just downloaded to my Kindle and started to read this book this weekend (haven't finished it yet) which gives a historical perspective on marriage. It's pretty fascinating.

Amazon.com: Marriage, a History: How Love Conquered Marriage (9780143036678): Stephanie Coontz: Books


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## Kobo

FirstYearDown said:


> The idea of steady sex is very attractive to a man.


In today's society men can have steady sex way before marriage even comes into the picture.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Kobo said:


> In today's society men can have steady sex way before marriage even comes into the picture.


So can women.


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## that_girl

Tall Average Guy said:


> Not to get too far off tangent, but I suspect at least some portion of the alleged "chore gap" is self made. My wife cares much more about decore in the house. She uses different placemats and guest towels for the seasons, hangs up decorations, etc. She might pull out some fancy glasses for when we are entertaining. I could care less about most of it. I help some, but if those things are going to get done, they are on her. While I don't consider this part of the household chores, I would not be at all surprised in she did.


That's the fun part of having a home 

Chores consist of toilet scrubbing, laundry, tub washing, dishes, vacuuming, mopping, washing windows, etc.


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## that_girl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> So can women.


 Yup.


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## SimplyAmorous

On the subject of SAHM's and the RISK involved.... I have no doubt this is true for many women but not every situation is the same.

I am very thankful I have a husband who desires to be the primary Bread Winner & does not look down on me for not being educated & working every day.... I do have a few side jobs where I can work around the bad weather & our driveway from hell though .....it can turn into a sheet of ice with a little snow, it is 750 ft long, cement, hilly & bendy & it has claimed many victims over the years, husband gets tired of being a Tow truck for our friends. He wrecked his plow in it last year, the farmer next door thankfully saw what a PIckle he was in & pulled him out. I almost wrecked yesterday getting our 4x4 Suburban down it , sometimes he takes the field instead. He doesn't want me on the country roads when they are bad -he worries about me too much... 

This is the price you pay when you want to live in the boonies on a secluded piece of country property, it was our dream. And 
I LOVE staying home, I never get bored..I do spend too much time on this darn forum though!! Some addictions are hard to break. 

...... Some may feel we are stupid in this day & age....but we are not careless people .... we have much $$ saved...if not, I would be worried, I worry about every damn thing under the sun, just my nature. Even when I married, I had backups for the people in our wedding, I always think "...."What if" ...and need a plan....

We've been completely debt free for over 5 yrs , if he lost his job today -we could live off of what we have saved for a good 3 yrs with no income coming it at all -not counting our net worth-which is pretty high given how many acres we own. 

If he died, we have good life insurance, same as if I kicked the bucket. The only problem would be health care. That could break anyone in a matter of days if you don't have it. 

I hope we never have to face any of that, but for us, we are quite content taking the RISK of only one of us working...it would be different if we were living paycheck to paycheck.... but that has never been our experience...well it was once when we bought this house, we socked every dime into it -we were lucky we didn't have to sell his coin collection -it was close. We are master savers. 

If we wanted too right now, I could make a phone call & get a check for over $160,000 in my hands within a month, but I am in no rush, those Gas well Landmen have been trying to get us to sign a lease with them for over 3 yrs now -big thing in my area (Marchellus Utica shale)- all my neighbores signed already , that is how little we care about $$, I care more about my land. When they started visiting us, they were giving $750 an acre to sign, last I heard it is up to $3250 an acre, I could care less. I wish they would go away accually.


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## SimplyAmorous

*Dean* said:


> To be 100% honest, I'm not sure I would have gotten married so soon if my wife would have lived with me. I loved her and everything but my main motive was getting her to spend the night.
> 
> It drove me crazy that I couldn't get her to spend the night with me after making love. Never ever ever had a girl do that to me. Sometimes we get hooked for unusual reasons.


Dean, your wife was a very very smart woman in my book ...kudoos to her :smthumbup: We need more women like that today, holding something back, making something extra special, allowing the man to wait. Then they wouldn't be complainig no man wants to commit & marry them.....we need to give them some real "incentive" where they feel it in their heart or in between the legs... after all I bet you sure wanted to wake up to her on some of those HARD mornings lying next to you. 

We need to show our boyfriends there is something to look forward too, something they crave -and they ain't gettin' it until they step up, be a real man, make it official... if that is what the woman wants anyway. Too many complain afterwards but they contributed to allowing the casual living together situation, then they get mad & start pestering their very content boyfriends. What good is that, reduces her to a beggar. 

Your wife knew how to get you !! Love it!


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## Ten_year_hubby

Therealbrighteyes said:


> For those here who complain about women getting custody of children, that's because of gender roles that many continue to clutch to in that women are the caregivers/nurturers and men are the providers....hence women raise the kids, men pay child support.
> If change is to be done and it should, stop with all the gender roles and realize that BOTH sexes are equally capable of raising children and BOTH genders are equally capable of financially providing for them.
> I find it odd that those who cling so hard to gender roles are the ones who are so upset when they only see their kids every other weekend. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. I have men friends and they are VERY nurturing to their kids but the courts would rule against them. 75% of the ELECTED judges are men. If all this BS of men are providers and women are the caregivers gave way of the Dodo bird, men would have equal parenting rights. Why aren't all ya'll rising up? Instead, many are continuing with I am man, here is my role....you are woman....here is yours. What gives? Hell, I wouldn't enter in to a contract where if things went sour I lost access to my kids. Not a chance in hell. So why aren't you men doing more to change the perception?! :scratchhead:


Amen sister! It's 2012 and things are not like they used to be. I don't think any man who can prove to the court that he genuinely shares at least 50 percent of the child rearing burden will have a problem getting the court to give him 50 percent custody in a no fault divorce. But he will have to do the work at home and be able to prove it! The benefit of the doubt in these cases goes to the woman, for obvious reasons. Very few men are prepared to prove themselves to the court. Work part time outside the home and stay home the other half if you are serious. Let your wife make up the income gap (or not). Learn to live on less. Use her income to pay for outside help, and you manage the relationships. A man's income and the amount of time he spends working outside the home counts for ZERO in the court's guidelines for custody. If a man genuinely wants fair custody treatment he has to start planning and rearranging his life now for the future. If you wait until the woman files for divorce to get yourself started, you will lose. Don't let the stereotypes you grew up with work against you. If you want your share of child custody, you will have to prove yourself in the home, not the workplace.


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## Ten_year_hubby

Tall Average Guy said:


> Not to get too far off tangent, but I suspect at least some portion of the alleged "chore gap" is self made. My wife cares much more about decore in the house. She uses different placemats and guest towels for the seasons, hangs up decorations, etc. She might pull out some fancy glasses for when we are entertaining. I could care less about most of it. I help some, but if those things are going to get done, they are on her. While I don't consider this part of the household chores, I would not be at all surprised in she did.


Not to worry, TAG. A man who goes out and works so that his wife can stay home and decorate is a wonderful guy but he is putting himself into a potential hole. Best situation is the wife works outside the home and you pay a decorator out of your joint income unless she wants to do it all after work. This would qualify as a personal hobby.


----------



## FirstYearDown

I Know said:


> my wife would divorce me if I started fussing over decorating, towels and serving bowls.
> 
> You are certainly correct about the housework thing. Women typically do far more than men.
> 
> I make no apologies for my input on domestic chores. My wife wanted kids in a big way. I did not. I made it pretty clear before we had any that I would not be taxi-ing kids around and having playdates with other parents, shopping for kids clothes(please kill me before I have to do that). So she voluntarily assumed more responsibility in the domestic department. I do more than many men, but certainly not 1/2.
> 
> It's our deal and it has worked for 25 years. Everyone is happy.


Well, you certainly put your needs aside when you agreed to have unwanted children!


----------



## FirstYearDown

Tall Average Guy said:


> Not to get too far off tangent, but I suspect at least some portion of the alleged "chore gap" is self made. My wife cares much more about decore in the house. She uses different placemats and guest towels for the seasons, hangs up decorations, etc. She might pull out some fancy glasses for when we are entertaining. I could care less about most of it. I help some, but if those things are going to get done, they are on her. While I don't consider this part of the household chores, I would not be at all surprised in she did.


I concur. 

Most straight men just don't care about decor. When I ask my husband about colors, I get a blank stare, followed by "I'm not a woman. I don't care as long is it is not pink and ruffles." :rofl: 

The only item he takes an interest in is high thread count sheets; hubby likes a comfy bed to make love in.


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## Tall Average Guy

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Not to worry, TAG. A man who goes out and works so that his wife can stay home and decorate is a wonderful guy but he is putting himself into a potential hole. Best situation is the wife works outside the home and you pay a decorator out of your joint income unless she wants to do it all after work. This would qualify as a personal hobby.


I may be putting myself in a hole, but so is she. Probably more so then I. This is my first (and god willing only) marriage, so perhaps I am naive, but we make decisions based on what works best for our family, not on what works best for for one spouse or ther other when we divorce. YMMV.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Tall Average Guy said:


> I may be putting myself in a hole, but so is she. Probably more so then I. This is my first (and god willing only) marriage, so perhaps I am naive, but we make decisions based on what works best for our family, not on what works best for for one spouse or ther other when we divorce. YMMV.


I feel the same as you, I feel like I am often some minority here-with my old fashioned lifestyle that works beautifully for our family. 

My older son doesn't care if his wife someday wants to work or not, she should do her passion ,whatever it is, but IF she is working -just as in preparing for what he called "an insurance policy" to divorce him, what a sad way to go into a marraige. I guess some feel they have to do that,.

I would think getting to know someone freaking inside and out, to where there is no quesetion what type of character another has --this is the best insurance policy. Although people change over the years, I don't believe our TRUE characters do, they pretty much stay the same.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Tall Average Guy said:


> I may be putting myself in a hole, but so is she. Probably more so then I. This is my first (and god willing only) marriage, so perhaps I am naive, but we make decisions based on what works best for our family, not on what works best for for one spouse or ther other when we divorce. YMMV.


No problem. We live in a culture obsessed with equity and it's not clear how marriage measures up. Hence the consistent anti-marriage vibe I get from almost every direction, even my church (although quite unintentionally). I'm really a wanna be altruist who keeps getting run over by reality


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## ocotillo

FirstYearDown said:


> Whether a man can do housework or not, it is most often the wife who ends up doing the lion's share of the household duties and raising children. There has definitely been a shift towards a more mutual sharing of chores, but we still have a long way to go in terms of husbands doing as much as wives. You still never see men fussing over decorating the home or having the right serving bowls for company.


Well that begs the question: "What is housework?"

Is snaking out a toilet clogged with a tampon housework? Is clearing nasty, rotting hair clogs from the shower and lavatory drains housework? Is replacing the disposal housework? -Repairing and/or replacing the water heater? -Fixing faucets? -Installing a new dishwasher? -Replacing pet**** and saddle valves? -Changing R.O. filters? 

How about painting the exterior of the house? -Fixing roof damage and replacing roof tiles/shingles? -Maintaining the storm gutters and flashings? -Actually re-roofing the house? -Landscaping the yard? -Raking leaves? -Cutting the grass? -Trimming tall trees? -Mixing insecticide? -Sweeping the chimney? -Replacing smoke detectors?

Is fixing electrical problems housework? -Vacuuming duct work? Cleaning the air handler? Hosing condenser coils? Purging the drip line? 

Is maintaining the cars housework? -Fixing dead batteries, flat tires and fluid leaks? Is pressure washing the decks, driveway, patio and sidewalks housework? Is sweeping the curb gutters housework? -Washing window exteriors on the second floor? -Fixing sliding doors and windows?

When you own your house and property, there is always something either broken, in the process of breaking, or in need of service so it won't break. And part of the reason that men and women usually make an effective team together is because generally, our interests and abilities are not exactly the same.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

ocotillo said:


> Well that begs the question: "What is housework?"
> 
> Is snaking out a toilet clogged with a tampon housework? Is clearing nasty, rotting hair clogs from the shower and lavatory drains housework? Is replacing the disposal housework? -Repairing and/or replacing the water heater? -Fixing faucets? -Installing a new dishwasher? -Replacing pet**** and saddle valves? -Changing R.O. filters?
> 
> How about painting the exterior of the house? -Fixing roof damage and replacing roof tiles/shingles? -Maintaining the storm gutters and flashings? -Actually re-roofing the house? -Landscaping the yard? -Raking leaves? -Cutting the grass? -Trimming tall trees? -Mixing insecticide? -Sweeping the chimney? -Replacing smoke detectors?
> 
> Is fixing electrical problems housework? -Vacuuming duct work? Cleaning the air handler? Hosing condenser coils? Purging the drip line?
> 
> Is maintaining the cars housework? -Fixing dead batteries, flat tires and fluid leaks? Is pressure washing the decks, driveway, patio and sidewalks housework? Is sweeping the curb gutters housework? -Washing window exteriors on the second floor? -Fixing sliding doors and windows?
> 
> When you own your house and property, there is always something either broken, in the process of breaking, or in need of service so it won't break. And part of the reason that men and women usually make an effective team together is because generally, our interests and abilities are not exactly the same.


And here is the disconnect. A man that does this stuff himself rather than watch his kids and feed them while someone else does the work will find himself at a major disadvantage if his wife decides to solve her marital disagreement by taking her case to family court. And plenty of people will advise her to do that. So my question is "do you love your kids or do you love working on your house and cars?". I hope you never have to answer this question but I did and I didn't have the right answer when it was my turn to speak. Today I'm a changed man.


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## that_girl

> Is clearing nasty, rotting hair clogs from the shower and lavatory drains housework?


OMG. Hubs does this but requests that I stand with him for support.

:rofl: Soooo sickkk!!!


----------



## tacoma

FirstYearDown said:


> I concur.
> 
> Most straight men just don't care about decor.



That`s probably because their wives have some idea of "tasteful"

My wife`s idea of decor is making the house look like my 80 year old grandmas place with little tacky nick nacks and crappy little stuff cluttering the entire place up.
I put my foot down when she tried to put slip covers on the couch.

I let her have at it for the most part as it`s one of those "Pick your battles" things but man would I love to rip this place apart and institute a more contemporary simple aesthetic decor.


----------



## Mistys dad

ocotillo said:


> Well that begs the question: "What is housework?"
> 
> Is snaking out a toilet clogged with a tampon housework? Is clearing nasty, rotting hair clogs from the shower and lavatory drains housework? Is replacing the disposal housework? -Repairing and/or replacing the water heater? -Fixing faucets? -Installing a new dishwasher? -Replacing pet**** and saddle valves? -Changing R.O. filters?
> 
> How about painting the exterior of the house? -Fixing roof damage and replacing roof tiles/shingles? -Maintaining the storm gutters and flashings? -Actually re-roofing the house? -Landscaping the yard? -Raking leaves? -Cutting the grass? -Trimming tall trees? -Mixing insecticide? -Sweeping the chimney? -Replacing smoke detectors?
> 
> Is fixing electrical problems housework? -Vacuuming duct work? Cleaning the air handler? Hosing condenser coils? Purging the drip line?
> 
> Is maintaining the cars housework? -Fixing dead batteries, flat tires and fluid leaks? Is pressure washing the decks, driveway, patio and sidewalks housework? Is sweeping the curb gutters housework? -Washing window exteriors on the second floor? -Fixing sliding doors and windows?
> 
> When you own your house and property, there is always something either broken, in the process of breaking, or in need of service so it won't break. And part of the reason that men and women usually make an effective team together is because generally, our interests and abilities are not exactly the same.


My wife's reasoning on this:

"Well, that's fun stuff for you. You like to work with your hands and break out all the tools you have. It's not the same as doing "real" housework."

Next time a car is broken down in the rain, it's 38 degrees outside, at 11:00 at night, and you need it to go to work in the morning, I'll be sure and let you share in the "fun".:rofl:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

tacoma said:


> man would I love to rip this place apart and institute a more contemporary simple aesthetic decor.


So would I! That sounds awful.....what's stopping you?


----------



## that_girl

My husband actually has a good eye for decorating. We like the same style so that helps. But his apartment was awesome when I met him!


----------



## tacoma

Therealbrighteyes said:


> So would I! That sounds awful.....what's stopping you?


Actually ..nothing.

Hmm.


----------



## ocotillo

that_girl said:


> OMG. Hubs does this but requests that I stand with him for support.
> 
> :rofl: Soooo sickkk!!!


--It wasn't too terrible before I saw the movie _The Ring._ It's creeped me out ever since though. Naturally, my wife and daughters have thick, long hair. :rofl:


----------



## Tall Average Guy

that_girl said:


> OMG. Hubs does this but requests that I stand with him for support.
> 
> :rofl: Soooo sickkk!!!


:lol: I am the same way. If I have to clean that crap out, she is damn well going to watch and appreciate what I have to go through! :rofl:


----------



## Halien

tacoma said:


> That`s probably because their wives have some idea of "tasteful"
> 
> My wife`s idea of decor is making the house look like my 80 year old grandmas place with little tacky nick nacks and crappy little stuff cluttering the entire place up.
> I put my foot down when she tried to put slip covers on the couch.
> 
> I let her have at it for the most part as it`s one of those "Pick your battles" things but man would I love to rip this place apart and institute a more contemporary simple aesthetic decor.


Sad how common that theme is among men. I have to admit that I had no sense of tasteful, maybe largely because I'm color blind. For years, I resisted my wife's attempts to makeover our home in less traditional ways. In the few years that she didn't work within her field, while the kids were young, she became friends with a really good decorator - one of those who does wall finishing techniques in high end homes, along with carrying the theme throughout the rest of the room. As I said, I resisted my wife's attempts, because we move every five years or so with my job. Finally let her go at it. Three years after buying a home, I was promoted elsewhere. We sold the home, in a depressed area, for $70k more than we paid. I learned to keep my mouth shut. Our current home was featured in a city magazine in an article by our realtor. I realized that I was the one keeping her from making the home beautiful, but had heard of so many horror stories of owners turning their homes into something that buyers considered garish, or at least unappealing.


----------



## heartsbeating

I have to say, my guy has a good eye for renovating. This has paid off for us with reselling property. I do find it appealing when he gets the tools out and does work around the home for us. Especially as I don't know how to use a power drill. 

For a long time I/we chose neutral or even a slightly more "masculine" style of decor - then after some time I told him "ya know, I want some more feminine looking things around here" and pointed out the style we normally choose. I don't think he'd even realized. So now I'm enjoying selecting slightly more "feminine" bedspreads and such. I keep it within reason; wouldn't unleash my inner drag-queen and decorate with feathers and sparkles but it's been nice to bring more of my feminine side to our home. 

Where I'm a bit lame is that I often have price in mind. So while we agree on styles of furniture together, I'm always looking at the price tag. In the past this used to annoy him slightly, probably the same way his disregard for the price tag would annoy me lol. But now we seem to have a good balance with each other and make fun of ourselves with it.


----------



## heartsbeating

SimplyAmorous said:


> ... if that is what the woman wants anyway. Too many complain afterwards but they contributed to allowing the casual living together situation, then they get mad & start pestering their very content boyfriends.


While this does not describe my feelings or experience with my husband, I do agree with you. If being married is important to someone, then yes, I completely agree. Maybe if there's going to be cohabiting, and marriage is important, there should at the very least, be clear boundaries/expectations from the start? Or don't live together if marriage isn't going to be on the table later. I have a friend in a similar scenario, living with her boyfriend for 5 years, asking me "Why hasn't he proposed?" 

I tell her I'm the wrong person to talk to about this.


----------



## Kobo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> So can women.


Sure, so then we agree it's not an incentive for men to get married?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

heartsbeating said:


> While this does not describe my feelings or experience with my husband, I do agree with you. If being married is important to someone, then yes, I completely agree. Maybe if there's going to be cohabiting, and marriage is important, there should at the very least, be clear boundaries/expectations from the start? Or don't live together if marriage isn't going to be on the table later. I have a friend in a similar scenario, living with her boyfriend for 5 years, asking me "Why hasn't he proposed?"
> 
> *I tell her I'm the wrong person to talk to about this*.


You are too kind Heartsbeating......I would lay it out in all it's glory, that it precisly why I am either loved for my honesty or hated for stepping on a few toes. 

I feel a woman in that situation has the best chance of getting married if she ups & leaves him.... lets him know that is very important to her -even if she did change her mind from before.... that is her wish in life....and she will not coerce him nor brow beat him..... 

Often when we are faced with loosing someone we love, we look up, we take it more serious. If something was there, some Hold she had on him, he will feel that, not want to loose her , he will suddenly want to fight for that ...and part of that is stepping up to the plate to please her. And she didn't have to brow beat him into it ! 

That would be my advice to any of them. If he doesn't care that she is moving on, miss her terribly, chances are very high he would have never married her anyway, so her walking away, as much as It may hurt & rip her apart.... would be the best thing -for her future... Again IF "marraige" meant that much to her. It doesn't for many.


----------



## heartsbeating

I can understand that way of thinking - but this is why I'm not the right person for her to talk to lol. Because I feel either you want to be with the person or not regardless of marriage. I understand the "threat" of losing someone but I don't like the thought that perhaps someone then proposes because they felt pressured to. It's too big of a decision. I know, this is where it gets confusing to me too haha.

I do think if needs aren't being met and/or ignored, then yes, action needs to be taken. I just seem to have a weird view about marriage it seems. To me, I'm with the man I love. That's all that matters. Maybe it's hard for me to advice about something objectively if I don't agree with it.


----------



## heartsbeating

SimplyAmorous said:


> Often when we are faced with loosing someone we love, we look up, we take it more serious. If something was there, some Hold she had on him, he will feel that, not want to loose her , he will suddenly want to fight for that ...and part of that is stepping up to the plate to please her. And she didn't have to brow beat him into it !


See this is where I get confused. <stretches out on couch> because on one hand I completely agree with you. On the other hand, did she love him and want to spend her life with him as a person, as her man, OR is it that she wanted to be married?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

heartsbeating said:


> I can understand that way of thinking - but this is why I'm not the right person for her to talk to lol. Because I feel either you want to be with the person or not regardless of marriage. I understand the "threat" of losing someone but I don't like the thought that perhaps someone then proposes because they felt pressured to. It's too big of a decision. I know, this is where it gets confusing to me too haha.
> 
> I do think if needs aren't being met and/or ignored, then yes, action needs to be taken. I just seem to have a weird view about marriage it seems. To me, I'm with the man I love. That's all that matters. Maybe it's hard for me to advice about something objectively if I don't agree with it.


Does she want kids with him....being married is good for the kids- that Mom & dad are hitched. Just my personal opinion. I guess if they don't want any, to each his or her own....it was monumentally important to me, I would never be with someone who wasn't willing to marry me and do right by me in every way, I am pretty demanding I guess. 

I never had to demand it though, which was very sweet indeed. He wanted it more than me!


----------



## romantic_guy

I think that marriage provides a security that living together does not. It tells each other and the world that we are exclusive, she is mine, I am hers, and don't you dare try to come between us. We got married at 16 and 17 and we are going on 40 years. There were some rough times...times that we would have called it quits were it not for that ring signifying our vows to one another.

I would do it all over again in a heartbeat! We are there for each other until death.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Kobo said:


> Sure, so then we agree it's not an incentive for men to get married?


You love to argue with me, dontcha? 
There are plenty of reasons why men would want to get married. Many want Mommy 2.0. They need their hair stroked, being told how awesome they are, how wonderful they are, how nobody could ever be as great as them and they need a woman to feed them, clothe them and care for them while sick. A ONS or hooker isn't going to do that. 
I personally have found nothing more fragile than the male ego. Not a womans, not fine china and not spun sugar. Literally nothing. I never knew this until I started reading here. It appears that if you look at a man wrong...it's a test. If you ask him to do something....you don't respect him. If you tell him you are not in the mood....you are usurping his authority as a man and his needs. If you question him....you are testing him. If you stand your ground....the temperature needs to be checked in the relationship. If she doesn't blow you on command...she doesn't love you. If she doesn't screw on command.....she is taking you for granted. 
Never knew any of this before I came here. I just thought it was the ebb and flow of marriage. Guess it really is about ego.


----------



## heartsbeating

SimplyAmorous said:


> Does she want kids with him....being married is good for the kids- that Mom & dad are hitched. Just my personal opinion. I guess if they don't want any, to each his or her own....it was monumentally important to me, I would never be with someone who wasn't willing to marry me and do right by me in every way, I am pretty demanding I guess.
> 
> I never had to demand it though, which was very sweet indeed. He wanted it more than me!


I think she does want children - and they are religious, so this will have an effect too.

I always felt my husband did right by me, even before being married. I never questioned his commitment or love to me. I do see how it can have different relevance or importance to people though. When we moved in together, it seemed extremely natural. It wasn't a big decision of whether we should or not, it was just "We're meant to be together, we want to be around each other all the time, let's find a place." I guess if our upbringings were different then we may have married. I just knew we wanted to be together, without hesitation. I think with children, it makes things "easier" from a societal perspective and it's nice to represent as a family unit.


----------



## Kobo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You love to argue with me, dontcha?
> There are plenty of reasons why men would want to get married. Many want Mommy 2.0. They need their hair stroked, being told how awesome they are, how wonderful they are, how nobody could ever be as great as them and they need a woman to feed them, clothe them and care for them while sick. A ONS or hooker isn't going to do that.
> I personally have found nothing more fragile than the male ego. Not a womans, not fine china and not spun sugar. Literally nothing. I never knew this until I started reading here. It appears that if you look at a man wrong...it's a test. If you ask him to do something....you don't respect him. If you tell him you are not in the mood....you are usurping his authority as a man and his needs. If you question him....you are testing him. If you stand your ground....the temperature needs to be checked in the relationship. If she doesn't blow you on command...she doesn't love you. If she doesn't screw on command.....she is taking you for granted.
> Never knew any of this before I came here. I just thought it was the ebb and flow of marriage. Guess it really is about ego.



That doesn't answer the question about if steady sex is an incentive for a man to marry. That was the comment I responded to and that you in turn responded to me on. All of the things you listed are not an incentive to get married. A man can get all of those while single. I thought the question was about the incentive for a man to marry. You gave examples of how to keep a man happy so I really don't know where you're going with it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

heartsbeating said:


> I think she does want children - and they are religious, so this will have an effect too.
> 
> I always felt my husband did right by me, even before being married. I never questioned his commitment or love to me.


 I never did either, I don't mean to imply that, it is only a problem if 2 "world views" are different, and one is wanting something else -like your girl friend. 

We even lived together for 8 months before we married. As soon as we moved in together, I started planning all the fine details of our big wedding. Many likely looked down on us for that (surrounded by Christians), but I didn't really care...It was "right" for us at that time, kinda all the stars lined up together for us to end up in that little house on a hill in that particular year to push us forward to our destiny. Most would never believe it but we still waited to have real sex. I /we had much sexual discipline back then. 

I have zero now.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Kobo said:


> That doesn't answer the question about if steady sex is an incentive for a man to marry. That was the comment I responded to and that you in turn responded to me on. All of the things you listed are not an incentive to get married. A man can get all of those while single. I thought the question was about the incentive for a man to marry. You gave examples of how to keep a man happy so I really don't know where you're going with it.


Who marries for sex? Honest question. 
No man can get what I mentioned while single because no woman is willing to play nurse maid to a grown man.....only a wife, a pathetic one. Grow up men! If you want to be screwed and screwed well, stop acting like children. The fact that you say my examples are what keeps a man happy says it all. In other words, Child 2.0 and THAT'S what I see here time and time again. I don't [email protected] children and neither do any other woman here. Act like a man, soothe your own ego and press on. Jesus. 
I will state once again, never saw this behavior until I came here. NEVER and I have 5 dudes as friends, 31 years of friendship with one and the "newest" is 19 years as friends.


----------



## heartsbeating

SimplyAmorous said:


> I never did either, I don't mean to imply that, it is only a problem if 2 "world views" are different, and one is wanting something else -like your girl friend.


True. Completely agree.



SimplyAmorous said:


> I have zero now.


:smthumbup:


----------



## I Know

FirstYearDown said:


> .Well, you certainly put your needs aside when you agreed to have unwanted children!


Yes I did. And I did it all for the sake of our family and my wife. I am not expecting praise for what I sacrificed because I love my kids and wife and they love me. But I did have to give away a lot of myself in order to fulfill my wife. I has worked out better than I could have ever imagined.


----------



## FirstYearDown

ocotillo said:


> Well that begs the question: "What is housework?"
> 
> Is snaking out a toilet clogged with a tampon housework? Is clearing nasty, rotting hair clogs from the shower and lavatory drains housework? Is replacing the disposal housework? -Repairing and/or replacing the water heater? -Fixing faucets? -Installing a new dishwasher? -Replacing pet**** and saddle valves? -Changing R.O. filters?
> 
> How about painting the exterior of the house? -Fixing roof damage and replacing roof tiles/shingles? -Maintaining the storm gutters and flashings? -Actually re-roofing the house? -Landscaping the yard? -Raking leaves? -Cutting the grass? -Trimming tall trees? -Mixing insecticide? -Sweeping the chimney? -Replacing smoke detectors?
> 
> Is fixing electrical problems housework? -Vacuuming duct work? Cleaning the air handler? Hosing condenser coils? Purging the drip line?
> 
> Is maintaining the cars housework? -Fixing dead batteries, flat tires and fluid leaks? Is pressure washing the decks, driveway, patio and sidewalks housework? Is sweeping the curb gutters housework? -Washing window exteriors on the second floor? -Fixing sliding doors and windows?
> 
> When you own your house and property, there is always something either broken, in the process of breaking, or in need of service so it won't break. And part of the reason that men and women usually make an effective team together is because generally, our interests and abilities are not exactly the same.


We are just lowly renters, so we don't have those problems. Call the landlord! :smthumbup:

I did, however, grow up in a four bedroom house and I saw how much work was involved. Our washer and dryer, along with our fridge all broke down at the same time one summer.


----------



## FirstYearDown

SimplyAmorous said:


> Dean, *your wife was a very very smart woman in my book ...kudoos to her :smthumbup: We need more women like that today, holding something back, making something extra special, allowing the man to wait. *Then they wouldn't be complainig no man wants to commit & marry them.....*we need to give them some real "incentive" where they feel it in their heart or in between the legs... after all I bet you sure wanted to wake up to her on some of those HARD mornings lying next to you. *
> 
> *We need to show our boyfriends there is something to look forward too, something they crave -and they ain't gettin' it until they step up, be a real man, make it official... if that is what the woman wants anyway. * Too many complain afterwards but they contributed to allowing the casual living together situation, then they get mad & start pestering their very content boyfriends. What good is that, reduces her to a beggar.
> 
> Your wife knew how to get you !! Love it!


My husband and I were engaged within a month of living together. 
We were married the following year. I never begged him for marriage, thanks.

Not every woman needs to withhold everything to become a wife!  This is not 1945.

My parents shacked up while they were engaged and they have been together for forty years.

Even royal couples live together before marriage. :rofl:

There are some men who are modern enough not to equate living together with being loose.


----------



## FirstYearDown

Kobo said:


> In today's society men can have steady sex way before marriage even comes into the picture.


Of course, but most women are going to want to get married at some point. Putting a ring on it takes the commitment conundrum out of the question.

Single men have to do a lot more, to get steady sex from one woman than married men.


----------



## tacoma

Three weeks ago I had kidney stones passing through me.

I had to take three days off for them to pass, to put it into perspective it was the first time in 17 years I`ve even taken a sick day.

I spent those three days in either a fugue of pain or Percocet induced daze.

Sometime during one of my drug induced hazes as my wife ran herself ragged doing anything & everything she could for me the thought crossed my mind that I`d be screwed if I were single.

It`s the only time in my life I`ve ever been physically incapable of taking care of myself.

Not an incentive I guess but definitely a benefit.


----------



## that_girl

I don't know about that above. Hubs and I lived together for 18 months before deciding to get married. We had a lawyer draw up papers for living wills, power of attorneys (both financial and medical) and trusts. It was in those 18 months that I got Hubs to get a physical and see a dentist.  We were 'married' in every sense of the word, minus the certificate of marriage and a ceremony.


----------



## heartsbeating

Well, I'm glad we're not a statistic then!

We lived together for years before marriage, finances combined and agreed upon, bought and sold property together, living a health-conscious life, helping each other to be healthy encouraging exercise and such; but we're also both adults and don't need 'reminders' to go to the dentist. Is that serious? As for faithful partners, my husband has been my only lover. I was selective, as was he. 

I personally don't think it makes sense but maybe that's because we're not a "statistic". That paragraph seems off to me.


----------



## that_girl

Trenton said:


> That was 18 months. If you had continued to cohabitate, statistically speaking, your commitment and care would easier wain.
> 
> I'm not sure if it's true either quite honestly but it does make sense. Especially for couples who remain married past the 25 year mark.


Perhaps. However, we had a child within 11 months of dating  There was a deeper commitment than just living together.


----------



## that_girl

Oh I had a ring. A beautiful blue topaz...he said it was because we fell in love in December. I still wear it, but on my right hand 

I think our idea of marriage (before we created our own) came from watching our parents' HORRIBLE marriages and we just wanted no part in that.

One of the catalysts in deciding to get married was after his big-V...he was icing his package and wanted me to come look at the incision to see if it was ok. So there I was, my face in his junk, moving it around to see...and we both thought, wow...this is totally not sexual and yet so very intimate. lol. We discussed marriage that next day.


----------



## heartsbeating

Trenton said:


> I don't put much weight in statistics if I be honest. It's my experience that you can find a statistic to back up just about anything.
> 
> Can I ask, and please don't be offended as that's not why I ask, but if things were so great and everything was like being married why did you marry him?


To answer your question ...why did I marry him? because he proposed and because I love him. I wasn't against marriage, I just didn't need it. So either way I wanted to be with him. It was about us being together. It became more important to him and I understood that.

I did struggle with _how_ to get married though. I tried the bridal expos and to be honest, felt sickened by it. He didn't mind what kind of celebration, in his words "Just let me marry you, woman!" We sat down together and talked about what we'd both like and we planned a beautiful destination for just the two of us. It truly was an intimate celebration of our love and perfect for us.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

that_girl said:


> Oh I had a ring. A beautiful blue topaz...he said it was because we fell in love in December. I still wear it, but on my right hand
> 
> I think our idea of marriage (before we created our own) came from watching our parents' HORRIBLE marriages and we just wanted no part in that.
> 
> One of the catalysts in deciding to get married was after his big-V...he was icing his package and wanted me to come look at the incision to see if it was ok. So there I was, my face in his junk, moving it around to see...and we both thought, wow...this is totally not sexual and yet so very intimate. lol. We discussed marriage that next day.


Please don't tell your children that story. Just say he showed up with a rosey look. Doesn't matter where the red comes from.


----------



## that_girl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Please don't tell your children that story. Just say he showed up with a rosey look. Doesn't matter where the red comes from.


:rofl: hahaha yea. I love our story though. Some things just work out.

I will say too, that along with the ring I wear, came promises to each other...promises to love and honor each other. It was just us that night in the living room...reading our vows to the other, my pregnant belly looking like another planet hahahaha...but it meant the world to me as I had never given myself like that to another person. In our minds, we were as married as we'd ever be.

Until we decided to make our 'marriage' public. I think that was the biggest thing to us...making it public.


----------



## heartsbeating

^ we considered a wedding similar to you, a small group of close family/friends. That idea greatly appealed to us also.

But our idea morphed into a destination wedding and honeymoon. It suited us perfectly. I can honestly say it was the best day of our lives - and we married on the anniversary date we'd always recognized. It truly felt intimate, loving and a wonderful celebration. Our families were happy for us too, they felt it was "us" and were supportive.


----------



## that_girl

i don't think I would have noticed if there was only 20 (like my wedding) or 300 people that day. I only had eyes for him. It was very surreal. My BIL was our minister and the ocean laid a nice soundtrack so only he and I could hear our vows.

We're very private people about things like that. Had we had it our way, we would have eloped the day we got our license. But, I'm my mother's only child (my siblings come from my dads) and I just couldn't take that away from her.


----------



## heartsbeating

What's kind of funny, now that I think about it, is that despite us living together for years etc. my husband (without me knowing) took my parents for breakfast at a nice restaurant and asked for their permission/approval to ask for my hand in marriage.


----------



## Kobo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Who marries for sex? Honest question.
> No man can get what I mentioned while single because no woman is willing to play nurse maid to a grown man.....only a wife, a pathetic one. Grow up men! If you want to be screwed and screwed well, stop acting like children. The fact that you say my examples are what keeps a man happy says it all. In other words, Child 2.0 and THAT'S what I see here time and time again. I don't [email protected] children and neither do any other woman here. Act like a man, soothe your own ego and press on. Jesus.
> I will state once again, never saw this behavior until I came here. NEVER and I have 5 dudes as friends, 31 years of friendship with one and the "newest" is 19 years as friends.


Are you arguing with yourself? You brought up the points in your post and now you're arguing against them. Are you OK? 

Ladies I will use this as an example of how not to communicate. If you're having a discussion about topic A then stick to that topic. Do start bringing in other issues that you want to get off your chest.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Kobo said:


> Are you arguing with yourself? You brought up the points in your post and now you're arguing against them. Are you OK?
> 
> Ladies I will use this as an example of how not to communicate. If you're having a discussion about topic A then stick to that topic. Do start bringing in other issues that you want to get off your chest.


You asked why would a man get married. My response is/was that many want Mommy 2.0 and that isn't something you can get while single. What was so hard to understand?


----------



## Kobo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You asked why would a man get married. My response is/was that many want Mommy 2.0 and that isn't something you can get while single. What was so hard to understand?


No, I asked if you believed that steady sex was an incentive for a man to get married being that steady sex can be had outside of marriage.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Kobo said:


> No, I asked if you believed that steady sex was an incentive for a man to get married being that steady sex can be had outside of marriage.


I never said it was. Many men here have and I don't see how that is accurate. Steady sex can be had anywhere and even with a paid person. Mommy 2.0 cannot and that is where I see more and more wanting, here.


----------



## Kobo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Steady sex can be had anywhere and even with a paid person.


I agree


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Kobo said:


> I agree


My point was sex isn't what draws people to marriage, other things are.


----------



## SoWhat

Although there are certainly incentives for men to get married, I think it would serve us well as a society to inform young men of the likelihood of divorce and the numbers indicating that their wives are overwhelmingly the probable party to institute divorce proceedings.

That is, maybe just teach kids in school that:

The divorce rate is 50% 
Women file for divorce 70-75% of the time. 
Women get child custody +90% of the time.

Basically just an informed consent type thing.


----------



## Kobo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> My point was sex isn't what draws people to marriage, other things are.


and I agree.


----------



## Kobo

SoWhat said:


> Although there are certainly incentives for men to get married, I think it would serve us well as a society to inform young men of the likelihood of divorce and the numbers indicating that their wives are overwhelmingly the probable party to institute divorce proceedings.
> 
> That is, maybe just teach kids in school that:
> 
> The divorce rate is 50%
> Women file for divorce 70-75% of the time.
> Women get child custody +90% of the time.
> 
> Basically just an informed consent type thing.


Sounds like something Dad's should tell their sons more than from the school to me.


----------



## morituri

Trenton said:


> And apparently, in regards to health, men benefit more from marriage than women...
> 
> "Married people live longer as well. *Single men have mortality rates that are 250% higher than married men. *Single women have mortality rates that are 50% higher than married women (Ross et all, 1990). Having a spouse can decrease your risk for dying from cancer as much as knocking ten years off your life. Single people spend longer in the hospital, and have a greater risk of dying after surgery (Goodwin et al, 1987)."



Then again there is this article from Harvard Medical School *Marriage and men's health*:



> *Good marriages promote health and longevity, but stressful and shattered marriages have the opposite effect*, especially for men. Why?
> 
> The explanations fall into three categories: biological, behavioral, and psychological.
> 
> The biological explanations center on stress. Martial conflicts produce elevated levels of stress hormones such as adrenaline, which raise blood pressure. Marital stress also triggers the production of cytokines, small proteins that set the inflammatory cascade in motion. Inflammation is a newly recognized cardiac risk factor, and divorced men have higher levels of inflammatory markers than married men.
> 
> The behavioral factors are no less important. Unmarried, divorced, and widowed men don't eat as well as married men. They are less likely to exercise but are more likely to smoke, drink excessively, and engage in other risky behaviors. In contrast, married men are more likely to get regular medical care and to benefit from a higher standard of living. But while senior citizens who live with a spouse get better preventive care than those who live alone, elders who live with an adult child do not get better care.
> 
> Loneliness, depression, and social isolation also contribute to the excess mortality associated with bereavement, divorce, or never having married. A Harvard study reported that socially isolated men have an 82% higher risk of dying from heart disease, compared with men who have strong interpersonal relationships. And the New England Research Institute reported that 66% of men rely on their wives for their primary social supports; only 21% rely on other people, and 10% have no such supports. Clearly, subtracting a wife greatly increases a man's risk of isolation.


So the health benefits of marriage for men are dependent on factors related to the marriage and factors related to the men themselves.


----------



## SoWhat

I suppose. But, with dads not being around as much due to the above factors...(and other factors, of course).

I'm not actually suggesting making this a curriculum. I just feel the information isn't out there enough. Not sure of a real solution.


----------



## AFEH

tacoma said:


> *It`s not very romantic at all but my incentive for marriage was my wifes sense of security.*
> 
> She`d never had anything to make her feel as if her world couldn`t come crashing down at any minute.
> 
> I wanted a child, she already had two and their father was a deadbeat who did nothing but make her life difficult.
> She wouldn`t have had my child without the security she saw in marriage.
> 
> Marriage for me was and still is a huge risk and roll of the dice.
> I left myself entirely at her mercy because it`s what she needed to build a family with me.
> 
> I haven`t gained a thing from marriage I couldn`t have gained without it except the woman I love.
> 
> That`s enough for me to justify the risk and the sacrifices.


How I see things it doesn't get much more romantic than that.


----------



## chillymorn

getting married for sex is like burning your house down for a peice of toast.


although I believe most men would think marriege = sex to some degree.

and women think marriage = emotional needs getting met to some degree.


----------



## AFEH

I find it amazing how different I am to some others. Sex was not my only reason for marrying my wife but it was very high on my agenda and it stayed very high all the way through, four decades. It was high on the agenda for both of us in that my wife thought it essential for the connection between the two of us and one of the reasons she never denied me.


If you don’t want or appreciate sex enough to put it high on the agenda, know what you have in it and nurture and take care of it then you sure as heck can lose it as attested to many people on TAM.

Some men like me are really driven to be the provider such that we have an endless supply of sex from the woman we are deeply in love with. I honestly thought that was bulk standard stuff. In fact even though I don’t really like the Alpha male term, I thought that type of behaviour was just about the most Alpha of all!

That sexual energy and sexual connection is I believe the very source of creativity and energy within a marriage.


----------



## Conrad

Well said.


----------



## romantic_guy

AFEH said:


> I find it amazing how different I am to some others. Sex was not my only reason for marrying my wife but it was very high on my agenda and it stayed very high all the way through, four decades. It was high on the agenda for both of us in that my wife thought it essential for the connection between the two of us and one of the reasons she never denied me.
> 
> 
> If you don’t want or appreciate sex enough to put it high on the agenda, know what you have in it and nurture and take care of it then you sure as heck can lose it as attested to many people on TAM.
> 
> Some men like me are really driven to be the provider such that we have an endless supply of sex from the woman we are deeply in love with. I honestly thought that was bulk standard stuff. In fact even though I don’t really like the Alpha male term, I thought that type of behaviour was just about the most Alpha of all!
> 
> That sexual energy and sexual connection is I believe the very source of creativity and energy within a marriage.


:iagree: Although, I do differ with you on the "Alpha" part. I needed to add some alpha to my beta and it has worked wonderfully! It will be 40 years in July and there is still an endless supply of sex! 

If you don't mind me asking, you say, "It was high on the agenda for both of us..." What happened?


----------



## FirstYearDown

heartsbeating said:


> What's kind of funny, now that I think about it, is that despite us living together for years etc. my husband (without me knowing) took my parents for breakfast at a nice restaurant and asked for their permission/approval to ask for my hand in marriage.


My husband also asked for my hand. My father loved him for that, because my parents are very traditional. Poor hubby was so nervous.

Discussions about divorce rates would NEVER occur in a religious school, especially Catholic.


----------



## okeydokie

i married to be happy and raise a family not to be mommied, sex is part of that happiness, at least it was at the time


----------



## ocotillo

AFEH said:


> I find it amazing how different I am to some others. Sex was not my only reason for marrying my wife but it was very high on my agenda and it stayed very high all the way through, four decades. It was high on the agenda for both of us in that my wife thought it essential for the connection between the two of us and one of the reasons she never denied me.


:iagree:

I think a lot depends on age and religious perspective. Sex can be very high on the agenda for a young man (Or woman) who believes that marriage is the only legitimate outlet for it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> I find it amazing how different I am to some others. Sex was not my only reason for marrying my wife but it was very high on my agenda and it stayed very high all the way through, four decades. It was high on the agenda for both of us in that my wife thought it essential for the connection between the two of us and one of the reasons she never denied me.
> 
> 
> If you don’t want or appreciate sex enough to put it high on the agenda, know what you have in it and nurture and take care of it then you sure as heck can lose it as attested to many people on TAM.
> 
> Some men like me are really driven to be the provider such that we have an endless supply of sex from the woman we are deeply in love with. I honestly thought that was bulk standard stuff. In fact even though I don’t really like the Alpha male term, I thought that type of behaviour was just about the most Alpha of all!
> 
> That sexual energy and sexual connection is I believe the very source of creativity and energy within a marriage.


I would say my husband thinks exactly like what you just described here, in all of this.... that part about sex being high on his agenda but clearly not everything and it *DRIVES *him to provide every day, making him a better man. 

He has said to me a few times, which really sounds Loserish , I am almost embarrassed to even say this about him, but in his own words.... had he not met me, he said he still might be living at home with his MOM (YIKES- that sounds bad!)....

...... but he is NO loser, he is a heck of a wonderful man....because love, marraige, commitment, family -the whole package HAS "driven' him, put that flame under him to better himself ......so I will look at him with respect and adoration -- he has gone further than he ever really dreamed he would go in life. At least with as big as our family has grown anyway. He was just the shy quiet guy in school, not much was driving him back then. 

Ya know his younger brother was the popular one- lots of friends, more outgoing, seemed to fall into jobs easier than my husband- he always had the gift of Gab, chick magnent over the years..... but he never seemed to fall in love....too distant or something - wasn't vulnerable enough - his last GF -he broke up with her after 6 long yrs...through an email and wouldn't even tell her why, left her hanging.... She was completely devestated. It was cowardly really, she wrote us a letter asking if we knew about it, as he is often so secretive, he lives in another state, and never tells the family anything so she gave us the heads up. 

He never found true love, he is a workaholic now, gets plastered, still hanging with the guys. 

On Thanksgiving, I asked about the NEW woman in his life (his mother confirmed he has one), trying to make small talk, he declined telling us anything, not even her name..... I am not sure why I did this, but my mouth opened , I looked directly at him and I said in a calm steady voice ...."your brother is nothing like you".....It was just his standoffishness, I was thinking of his heartbroken ex probably crying at home that very day not even knowing why he dumped her.......my husband wouldn't be caught dead hurting someone he shared 6 yrs with like that, I can't believe they are even related. 

Just saying...... LOVE really can pick some men up and make them better men, even building better character in them.


----------



## heartsbeating

FirstYearDown said:


> My husband also asked for my hand. My father loved him for that, because my parents are very traditional. Poor hubby was so nervous.
> 
> Discussions about divorce rates would NEVER occur in a religious school, especially Catholic.


I think my parents respected it too. And yes, my guy was very nervous as well! He attempted three times to propose to me ...things kept going askew, the second time I saw it coming and we both ended up laughing together about the night of mishaps, he didn't want to propose then. The third time, I wasn't expecting it and we almost ended up in an argument because I was doing chores at home and he was trying to rush me out the door to get me to the beach while the sun was out, then he just blurted it out and asked me. I immediately said yes and again, we were giggling afterwards about the circumstances. He proposed again "officially" when my ring was ready. 

I love that he asked my parents because it's something he wanted and felt it was the right thing to do. As they knew it was coming, they apparently wondered "Why aren't they engaged yet?!" heheh but couldn't say anything. Afterwards he shared with them all of his emotions, nerves and funny scenarios of trying to propose to me. I love him.


----------



## that_girl

In 5th grade, a priest told me that if we had sex before marriage, we'd go to Hell.

Nothing like fear to control people. lol. I wasn't too worried about Hell.

Asking for the woman's hand is so special. However, i was on my own for 7 years. My mom was not the one to give me away. lol.


----------



## Unhappy2011

SoWhat said:


> Women file for divorce 70-75% of the time.


I wonder if that is because of the passive role women play in relationships.

Like some dude she is not that crazy for asked her and she said yes but is not really happy until one day she can't take it.


----------



## FirstYearDown

I was on my own for years too. Didn't make a difference in my parent's eyes.

Their controlling attitude was the reason we eloped. I was supposed to have this huge, ridiculous spectacle and my parents were supposed to "give me to my husband." They wanted me to cover my face with the veil. :rofl:

It is not 1953. Modern brides are independent and leave home long before they are married.


----------



## morituri

Here's something interesting.

From the February edition of the Journal of Marriage and Familly article titled *Reexamining the Case for Marriage: Union Formation and Changes in Well-being*.




> The effects of marriage and cohabitation are found to be similar across a range of measures tapping psychological well-being, health, and social ties. Where there are statistically significant differences, marriage is not always more advantageous. Overall, differences tend to be small and appear to dissipate over time, even when the greater instability of cohabitation is taken into account.
> 
> In conclusion, we are certainly not saying that marriage is irrelevant for individual wellbeing. What we have found is simply that, once individual differences are taken into account, it is far from a blanket prescription for individual well-being. To those in highly conflicted marriages or who have gone through divorce, this sociological insight is only a firm grasp of the obvious. At the same time, for many others, marriage is a great source of happiness and well-being that it is expected to be for a lifetime, or at least for a portion of the life course. Recent campaigns to promote marriage are based on the assumption that marriage will improve the well-being of individuals, and in a context of scarce resources, they divert time and money away from other policy levers. Better understanding the circumstances and individual and couple characteristics under which marriage is likely to improve well-being is a critical interdisciplinary challenge with important policy implications.
> NOTE


----------



## Tall Average Guy

that_girl said:


> Asking for the woman's hand is so special. However, i was on my own for 7 years. My mom was not the one to give me away. lol.


My wife and I date for almost five years, and she had been out of school and on her own for over four years when I proposed, so her parents did not give her away and I just could not bring myself to ask for their permission. 

I did know it was important to my wife and to them, so I told them before I asked her and asked for their blessing. Perhaps it is a minor difference, but it made sense to me and kept everyone happy.


----------



## datingopinionz

YinPrincess said:


> Woman's thread about female proposal got my husband and I talking about marriage - and why men would do it... I personally cannot think of any reason for a man to get married unless he wants "legitimate" children... My husband couldn't think of any reasons, either, that couldn't be covered by a couple merely co-habitating. (These reasons included sex, (I know - just an idea), combining of finances, companionship and having shared household responsibilities).
> 
> So what incentive does a man really have to get married these days? It seems like he risks so much for so little benefit... And if the marriage fails he could potentially have more to lose...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To me marriage is big deal, its my biggest dream in life to love a single girl with my whole heart and receive love in return. I really want to spend my life with a simple girl who truely loves me and who will never cheat on me.

Well here are some things that i am looking forward in a marriage.

1. Holding the love of my life in my arms makes me feel like the most powerful person of this planet, its really relaxing and feels good.

2. Someone to occasionally or if possible regularly cook food for me, i love it when a girl cooks food for me, even if the food tastes a little bad i would love to eat it as she has put efforts to make that food for me which i really appreciate and love.

3. Holding someone in my arms while i go to sleep will really give me a sound sleep.

4. Once married, i would love to pay for everything like home, vehicle, fuels everything. i don't expect my wife to share any of the expenses, also i don't expect my wife to work too, i would love a house wife although if she wants to work then i wouldn't stop her from doing so.

5. Most important thing that i expect from my wife and most of the guys do is to never cheat on me or leave me, i would be devastated if my wife ever leaves me or cheat on me, she can keep secrets but if she has a secret affair i can never live with that.

6. Making love with her would definitely by another incentive for me, i would do me best to keep her pleased if she truly loves me, again i know i mention love love too many times but then again that's how i am i am hopeless romantic give and i am really expecting a loving wife.

7. A lifetime companion, having a good home, car or pretty much ever other comfort is worthless if you don't have someone to share it with, who better than a good wife could be a better companion to share these comforts with.

8. Would love to have children too.

P.S. i know i might have gone off topic on some points but then again, i just said pretty much everything that i want to say also sorry for my horrible English, my native language is not English.


----------



## that_girl

FirstYearDown said:


> It hurts like hell that I never got to enjoy any rites of passage. I had no prom, no nice proposal and an elopement which was simply the lesser of two evils.


But it's worked out. Don't focus on the negatives.

I've had friends have everything "perfect" and they divorce 2 years later. Who cares about how it's done....as long as it lasts.


----------



## Conrad

One word of caution.

I know this list makes sense to you.

I could have written it nearly 30 years ago.

Do not assume this is how a woman sees things.




datingopinionz said:


> To me marriage is big deal, its my biggest dream in life to love a single girl with my whole heart and receive love in return. I really want to spend my life with a simple girl who truely loves me and who will never cheat on me.
> 
> Well here are some things that i am looking forward in a marriage.
> 
> 1. Holding the love of my life in my arms makes me feel like the most powerful person of this planet, its really relaxing and feels good.
> 
> 2. Someone to occasionally or if possible regularly cook food for me, i love it when a girl cooks food for me, even if the food tastes a little bad i would love to eat it as she has put efforts to make that food for me which i really appreciate and love.
> 
> 3. Holding someone in my arms while i go to sleep will really give me a sound sleep.
> 
> 4. Once married, i would love to pay for everything like home, vehicle, fuels everything. i don't expect my wife to share any of the expenses, also i don't expect my wife to work too, i would love a house wife although if she wants to work then i wouldn't stop her from doing so.
> 
> 5. Most important thing that i expect from my wife and most of the guys do is to never cheat on me or leave me, i would be devastated if my wife ever leaves me or cheat on me, she can keep secrets but if she has a secret affair i can never live with that.
> 
> 6. Making love with her would definitely by another incentive for me, i would do me best to keep her pleased if she truly loves me, again i know i mention love love too many times but then again that's how i am i am hopeless romantic give and i am really expecting a loving wife.
> 
> 7. A lifetime companion, having a good home, car or pretty much ever other comfort is worthless if you don't have someone to share it with, who better than a good wife could be a better companion to share these comforts with.
> 
> 8. Would love to have children too.
> 
> P.S. i know i might have gone off topic on some points but then again, i just said pretty much everything that i want to say also sorry for my horrible English, my native language is not English.


----------



## Conrad

Unhappy2011 said:


> I wonder if that is because of the passive role women play in relationships.
> 
> Like some dude she is not that crazy for asked her and she said yes but is not really happy until one day she can't take it.


It might have something more to do with 18 years (minimum) of child support payments.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> One word of caution.
> 
> I know this list makes sense to you.
> 
> I could have written it nearly 30 years ago.
> 
> Do not assume this is how a woman sees things.


You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. If my husband wrote that out and presented it to me, I would break down in tears and love him for the rest of our lives. 
Men, read this list. Read it again and again. It IS what women want as well.


----------



## that_girl

I asked my husband what his incentive was for marrying me.

He said, "Your Sunday breakfasts."

:rofl: nice, babe.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> It might have something more to do with 18 years (minimum) of child support payments.


Yup, 20-25%. I would KILL to only pay that. I pay college tuition (after scholarship) of $15k a year, he lives with us and eats us out of house and home, between his tuition, his food costs/school fees/parking/health/car insurance, he costs me nearly $30K a year. According to current laws though, if I divorced my husband he wouldn't be required in any way to pay for his college aged son. Son's car broke down yesterday and it will take 1 week (a rental now needed) and $1900 to fix it and my youngest split his chin open on Tuesday which cost $600 as our co-pay. Yeah, child support is such a burden. I'd take it ANY DAY over actually having to support children.


----------



## datingopinionz

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. If my husband wrote that out and presented it to me, I would break down in tears and love him for the rest of our lives.
> Men, read this list. Read it again and again. It IS what women want as well.


i really hope i find such women some day and thanks for the good words


----------



## Spock

I think marriage today is essentially just a security blanket for both partners and makes it just a bit harder for either partner to stray. It therefore increases the possibility of long term survival of the relationship which is good for the children. 

When you are in a serious long-term relationship, those improved odds seem attractive. 

When you are not in one, the financial risks of divorce appear more overwhelming.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

datingopinionz said:


> To me marriage is big deal, its my biggest dream in life to love a single girl with my whole heart and receive love in return. I really want to spend my life with a simple girl who truely loves me and who will never cheat on me.
> 
> Well here are some things that i am looking forward in a marriage.
> 
> 1. Holding the love of my life in my arms makes me feel like the most powerful person of this planet, its really relaxing and feels good.
> 
> 2. Someone to occasionally or if possible regularly cook food for me, i love it when a girl cooks food for me, even if the food tastes a little bad i would love to eat it as she has put efforts to make that food for me which i really appreciate and love.
> 
> 3. Holding someone in my arms while i go to sleep will really give me a sound sleep.
> 
> 4. Once married, i would love to pay for everything like home, vehicle, fuels everything. i don't expect my wife to share any of the expenses, also i don't expect my wife to work too, i would love a house wife although if she wants to work then i wouldn't stop her from doing so.
> 
> 5. Most important thing that i expect from my wife and most of the guys do is to never cheat on me or leave me, i would be devastated if my wife ever leaves me or cheat on me, she can keep secrets but if she has a secret affair i can never live with that.
> 
> 6. Making love with her would definitely by another incentive for me, i would do me best to keep her pleased if she truly loves me, again i know i mention love love too many times but then again that's how i am i am hopeless romantic give and i am really expecting a loving wife.
> 
> 7. A lifetime companion, having a good home, car or pretty much ever other comfort is worthless if you don't have someone to share it with, who better than a good wife could be a better companion to share these comforts with.
> 
> 8. Would love to have children too.
> 
> P.S. i know i might have gone off topic on some points but then again, i just said pretty much everything that i want to say also sorry for my horrible English, my native language is not English.


I agree with Brighteyes ! When I read this list, you know what I was thinking.... this man has the exact same heart as my dear husband...he is old fashioned, he is a romantic, Love is what he craves in life, he is a family man, he believes strongly in the Responsibility of a MAN , and he wants to be treated with respect & love , and passion in the bedroom and a warm body to hold sure is something sweet --he sounds like a Simple Man with a HUGE heart...who has his priorities right. 

And to this I say... A good woman will be very deserving of a man like you...please do not sell yourself short, make sure she is made of exactly what you are wanting here before you walk her down that aisle. Look for character, and don't marry too soon, get to know her inside and out & make sure you are compatable. 

Cause YOU are a freaking Gem -at least in my eyes ! 

And a hopeless romantic ! Very sweet!


----------



## datingopinionz

SimplyAmorous said:


> I agree with Brighteyes ! When I read this list, you know what I was thinking.... this man has the exact same heart as my dear husband...he is old fashioned, he is a romantic, Love is what he craves in life, he is a family man, he believes strongly in the Responsibility of a MAN , and he wants to be treated with respect & love , and passion in the bedroom and a warm body to hold sure is something sweet --he sounds like a Simple Man with a HUGE heart...who has his priorities right.
> 
> And to this I say... A good woman will be very deserving of a man like you...please do not sell yourself short, make sure she is made of exactly what you are wanting here before you walk her down that aisle. Look for character, and don't marry too soon, get to know her inside and out & make sure you are compatable.
> 
> Cause YOU are a freaking Gem -at least in my eyes !
> 
> And a hopeless romantic ! Very sweet!


thanks  well i am simple and i like to keep my life simple as well as others, and surely i wont hurry into marriage rather i just can't get married until i am truly assured that the girl i love - loves me equally.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

*Dean* said:


> But your pay back will be when they both get married, have kids, you get to spoil the children rotten. Then smile and kiss everyone goodbye and say it was so nice to see you and thanks for coming to visit. Grandpa and I are off to Europe for a few weeks.


Oh I get it. My sons are awesome, they just are. They are worth every single cent we ever paid to feed them, clothe them and nurture them. What I cannot understand is a person who moans that 20% is too much or is in some way more than they should pay. 20%?!?! I would kill to only pay that. Can I sign up for that?


----------



## Conrad

The observation was that women initiate divorce at a much higher rate than men.

Those who get paid for their efforts tend to initiate.

That's an unbreakable rule of nature.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> The observation was that women initiate divorce at a much higher rate than men.
> 
> Those who get paid for their efforts tend to initiate.
> 
> That's an unbreakable rule of nature.


And yet women lose out financially after divorce, yet they are still willing to initiate. That tells me something.


----------



## Trenton

SimplyAmorous said:


> I agree with Brighteyes ! When I read this list, you know what I was thinking.... this man has the exact same heart as my dear husband...he is old fashioned, he is a romantic, Love is what he craves in life, he is a family man, he believes strongly in the Responsibility of a MAN , and he wants to be treated with respect & love , and passion in the bedroom and a warm body to hold sure is something sweet --he sounds like a Simple Man with a HUGE heart...who has his priorities right.
> 
> And to this I say... A good woman will be very deserving of a man like you...please do not sell yourself short, make sure she is made of exactly what you are wanting here before you walk her down that aisle. Look for character, and don't marry too soon, get to know her inside and out & make sure you are compatable.
> 
> Cause YOU are a freaking Gem -at least in my eyes !
> 
> And a hopeless romantic ! Very sweet!


Ditto! Ditto! Ditto!


----------



## Acorn

Therealbrighteyes said:


> And yet women lose out financially after divorce, yet they are still willing to initiate. That tells me something.


It does makes you wonder.


----------



## morituri

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. If my husband wrote that out and presented it to me, I would break down in tears and love him for the rest of our lives.
> Men, read this list. Read it again and again. It IS what women want as well.


You are not every woman just like I am not every man. Some men AND women look at that list and burst out in laughter while others are touched beyond words. Each person is different.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

morituri said:


> You are not every woman just like I am not every man. Some men AND women look at that list and burst out in laughter while others are touched beyond words. Each person is different.


Three women here said it was lovely. None of us burst out laughing and no woman has come in to say the list is ridiculous. Yes, we are all different. Most women however would love that list.


----------



## I Know

morituri said:


> Many women have men who follow that list and do not appreciate them for doing so.


Sadly Morituri, this is very common. What seems so romantic and endearing on this list seems to turn women off before very long. Yes, yes I know, not all women. But generally true. My wife is one that likes the mushy stuff like the list above. But without a healthy dose of "I am a man who's going places and I have my own stuff going on" attitude, she would soon see me as too easy. A pushover. It's human nature. 

Actually I find clingy people a bit much sometimes too. You want your partner to want you because you are simply the right/best person. Not because they cannot find someone else to take them.


----------



## Halien

I Know said:


> Sadly Morituri, this is very common. What seems so romantic and endearing on this list seems to turn women off before very long.


It also may not even turn women off, per se, but I think that it is far more common that we men who feel so strongly about these symbolic meanings marry people who are probably years away from the acceptance of other issues of the marriage, so they will just dismiss it as impractical, given the issues of the time, or we marry those who apply their efforts to resentment over past hurts instead of accepting apologies when we fail as men. There may not be enough money to make the house payment, kids who are struggling, and she thinks that they wouldn't be if I did XX, or her job is really hectic, all of which seems more important that these deep feelings he has. Many men and women can find a million and one reasons not to appreciate the simple virtues in another, even if they are great virtues.

Since I'm beginning to move away from this site, I wanted to throw in something personal. Through new approaches to medicines in treating my wife's depressive spectrum bipolar disorder, she's growing to a real appreciation of these transcendent aspects of marriage. Its like a light switch was flipped a couple of months ago. In my case, I'm glad that I decided that her struggle with appreciating these sentimental things didn't mean that I had to stop caring about them.


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## I Know

Halien;569147
Since I'm beginning to move away from this site said:


> I hope that this is as good of news as it sounds Halien.
> 
> By depressive spectrum bipolar do you mean that she is bipolar but tends towards the depressive end of the manic/depressive spectrum? I would be interested in what treatment you/she are having success with if you would like to share. I am often surprised out how common your wife's condition is.


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## Halien

I Know said:


> I hope that this is as good of news as it sounds Halien.
> 
> By depressive spectrum bipolar do you mean that she is bipolar but tends towards the depressive end of the manic/depressive spectrum? I would be interested in what treatment you/she are having success with if you would like to share. I am often surprised out how common your wife's condition is.


Her condition is very rare, and we are told that many psychiatrists doubt the validity of the diagnosis. Her doc calls it a spectrum disorder. No highs, but very definable patterns in the lows, and anti-depressants lead to suicide in a very high percentage of patients in this type, including her. I wouldn't want to give false hope to others, though. Some of the newer medications usually taken along with anti-depressants, along with some medications usually used with ADHD have made dramatic changes in her and our son. The change was like a switch two months ago, and persistant. 

I really have benefitted from the advice of others on this site, but personally need to pull away a bit. In addition to my career, I'm a writer, and it seems that my wife's positivity has started up an old, almost forgotten itch.


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## SimplyAmorous

I Know said:


> Sadly Morituri, this is very common. What seems so romantic and endearing on this list seems to turn women off before very long. Yes, yes I know, not all women. But generally true. My wife is one that likes the mushy stuff like the list above. But without a healthy dose of "I am a man who's going places and I have my own stuff going on" attitude, she would soon see me as too easy. A pushover. It's human nature.
> 
> Actually I find clingy people a bit much sometimes too. You want your partner to want you because you are simply the right/best person. Not because they cannot find someone else to take them.


I agree with you on these things ---very common for women to do.... they say they want the *FAMILY man *who treats them like a Princess...but they speak out of 2 sides of their mouth and are sexually attracted & craving the *Bad boy* who ignores them, even women like a little chase. A good balance between Alpha & Beta is so needed...to keep the fires burning for the woman. 

Even though I LOVE the MUSH, the romantic, the emotional ....it accually makes sense for me --as I am of a secondary Melancholy tempermant - so is my husband .... BUT.....I still took him for granted for many years, he WAS too much of a "push over", too unselfish somehow , he was missing the assertive Alpha traits to get my attention & show me who was "the man" & take what was his. Admittedly I am likely more aggressive than most females , very strong willed, so he just passively let me do my thing...we were still very close ...but it could have been SO MUCH MORE. 

The Clingy comment.... I want to offer a perspective (if the couple is healthy minded that is)... ..if a man or woman's top 3 love languages are *Quality time */ *Physical touch *& *Words of affirmation *---they may appear to come off "Clingy" to another who doesn't have that mixture at the top..... So yeah, a disconnect, a non understanding of the other, and could be seen as too clingy, too needy. 

I do not consider myself clingy at all --but I do LOVE his time, His attention, His touch and his words... I would be a pain up the living ass to an "acts of Service man" who had quality time at the bottom of his love lanugages, such a marraige would be made in hell for me, cause I want what I want. I can be a little selfish and if he wasn't into that, well, it just wouldn't be working for me. 

Marry what you are -and life and marriage will flow beautifully. 

ONce I got my head out of my rear end & started giving my attention & cuddling to my husband instead of my kids (which he was craving all along) - then we were both more happy and fullfilled.

I would venture to say any *Hopeless Romantic *type has these 3 love languages at the TOP....and make sure their is attraction or another trainwreck is coming. 

If you are still on here *datingopinionz*....curious for you to take this test and report your Love languages , as I have my theorys in this..... 

The 5 Love Languages | The 5 Love Languages®


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## I Know

SimplyAmorous said:


> I agree with you on these things ---very common for women to do.... they say they want the *FAMILY man *who treats them like a Princess...but they speak out of 2 sides of their mouth and are sexually attracted & craving the *Bad boy* who ignores them, even women like a little chase. A good balance between Alpha & Beta is so needed...to keep the fires burning for the woman.
> 
> Even though I LOVE the MUSH, the romantic, the emotional ....it accually makes sense for me --as I am of a secondary Melancholy tempermant - so is my husband .... BUT.....I still took him for granted for many years, he WAS too much of a "push over", too unselfish somehow , he was missing the assertive Alpha traits to get my attention &* show me who was "the man" & take what was his.* Admittedly I am likely more aggressive than most females , very strong willed, so he just passively let me do my thing...we were still very close ...but it could have been SO MUCH MORE.
> 
> The Clingy comment.... I want to offer a perspective (if the couple is healthy minded that is)... ..if a man or woman's top 3 love languages are *Quality time */ *Physical touch *& *Words of affirmation *---they may appear to come off "Clingy" to another who doesn't have that mixture at the top..... So yeah, a disconnect, a non understanding of the other, and could be seen as too clingy, too needy.
> 
> I do not consider myself clingy at all --but I do LOVE his time, His attention, His touch and his words... I would be a pain up the living ass to an "acts of Service man" who had quality time at the bottom of his love lanugages, such a marraige would be made in hell for me, cause I want what I want. I can be a little selfish and if he wasn't into that, well, it just wouldn't be working for me.
> 
> *Marry what you are -and life and marriage will flow beautifully*.
> 
> ONce I got my head out of my rear end & started giving my attention & cuddling to my husband instead of my kids (which he was craving all along) - then we were both more happy and fullfilled.
> 
> I would venture to say any *Hopeless Romantic *type has these 3 love languages at the TOP....and make sure their is attraction or another trainwreck is coming.
> 
> If you are still on here *datingopinionz*....curious for you to take this test and report your Love languages , as I have my theorys in this.....
> 
> The 5 Love Languages | The 5 Love Languages®


SA you really nailed this one w/ these comments. 

Marry what you are -and life and marriage will flow beautifully

show me who was "the man" & take what was his.

Boys are socialized that the "take what is yours" is somehow evil. That drive and ambition are base male defects. It took a long time for me to unlearn that bit of nastiness.


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## I Know

Halien said:


> Her condition is very rare, and we are told that many psychiatrists doubt the validity of the diagnosis. Her doc calls it a spectrum disorder. No highs, but very definable patterns in the lows, and anti-depressants lead to suicide in a very high percentage of patients in this type, including her. I wouldn't want to give false hope to others, though. Some of the newer medications usually taken along with anti-depressants, along with some medications usually used with ADHD have made dramatic changes in her and our son. The change was like a switch two months ago, and persistant.
> 
> I really have benefitted from the advice of others on this site, but personally need to pull away a bit. In addition to my career, I'm a writer, and it seems that my wife's positivity has started up an old, almost forgotten itch.


You gotta do what's best for you and the fam. I wish you the best. Many of us have benefited from your input as well. And it is not surprising that you would be writer. You posts have a certain flow to them. 

Best regards.


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## datingopinionz

*@SimplyAmorous*

wow now that's some descriptive, meaningful and useful comment. yes i am here and i took that assessment and here are the results, btw that test was something wierd i mean it was like "do you like to sleep?" or "do you like to stay awake?" while both are equally important to me, anyways i just selected options that i think suited my most and here are the results.












SimplyAmorous said:


> If you are still on here *datingopinionz*....curious for you to take this test and report your Love languages , as I have my theorys in this.....


sure, i would love you input or any question on these results. a female opinion is always welcome 

i can definitely tell i love to spend quality time, i keep my life simple by doing whatever i like (unless and untill it does not hurts anyone in anyways) and skip things that i dont like to do (unless they are really important).

In my life i have very few friends 5-6, but each of them is a real gem, they stand by me on my worst times, listen to what i say and co-operate to very great extent and i really appreciate it and in return i act same with them. i like real people, who are down to earth i.e. simple. these friends of mine as exactly that. 

anyways my point is that i really think my life is special as special can be, so i really try to enjoy every movement of my life to the fullest until i can and for that i work in the field that i love the most, i have a very selective group of friends whom i am lucky to have and best of all i am really lucky to have supportive family. i know most of you must be thinking supportive family is what every other person have, but in my country most of people are very narrow minded, they put their children in career that they i.e. parents think is right for them, they make their children marry girl that they select for them, and lots more.. i luckily don't have such ****ty restrictions.

Also i would like to clear that i am quite sure that i am not clingy, although i am hopeless romantic i don't go giving around really romantic gifts to every girl i meet, rather i have just been romantic once to my ex-girlfriend later on i never did it again coz i thought it was not worth it, i would definitely like to surprise the girl who i intend to marry with the most breathtaking marriage proposal and wouldn't hesitate to spend a decent amount for the arrangement but only if she loves me to that level else that would be just a desperate or creepy attempt and i can understand that. most people take romantic stuffs as creepy coz i think they feel romantic people are romantic all the time but honestly it is not so.

Another thing that i feel, when i say i am romantic, people take that as a romantic with "full-stop" they think its the only side of me that the only thing is do is go away giving chick red roses, which is actually not the case, i have sides other than romantic, i am adventurous, i like thrill, excitement, taking risks in live, doing stupid stuff (this just happens), helping people, doing creative stuff (this is actually my profession), traveling, joking (its actually quite hard for me to be serious) although i manage to stay serious at funerals, on weekends i like relax by watching movies, tvshows etc... and so on...

i like to live the movement, when i am with my friends its just me and my friends, we talk about us and general stuff. when i am with my girlfriends then again its just us and no other stuff matter i take interest in what she talks and appreciate it when she genuinely listen to what i say. same applies to my friends.

P.S. Out of curiosity i have started reading "The 5 Love Languages" book, its quite interesting so far


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## MysteryMan1

Bump.


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