# Love and the internet EA.



## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

Hi everyone,

My husband had an internet EA for about 10 months that I know of. We are in the R process and things seem to be going well, but I can't get over the fact that he told her he loved her. He appears to have cut all contact and says he doesn't miss her at all and seems very remorseful, but I constantly question things. He says he didn't feel anything and it was just a game that went to far. That is what is holding up our R at this time. I just can't get over those words being said to someone else. He claims to be 100% sure he only wants me and has promised many times that this will never happen again. 

It is possible to love someone you chat with on a game and talk to on the phone? If so, what are the signs to look for that he really does have feelings for her?


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

My W did the same thing. Yes you can love online. Lay down the law. If he wants to stay he has to prove it. If you're nice about this he will walk all over you, rugsweep, and eventually do it again.

Also find out where the OW is. If she's near by you may need to look into it being more than you thought.

I'm sorry you are here. We'll help you through.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

Ovid said:


> My W did the same thing. Yes you can love online. Lay down the law. If he wants to stay he has to prove it. If you're nice about this he will walk all over you, rugsweep, and eventually do it again.
> 
> Also find out where the OW is. If she's near by you may need to look into it being more than you thought.
> 
> I'm sorry you are here. We'll help you through.


He seems to be doing everything he can to prove it, but my problem is I don't believe it when he tells me he loves me anymore since he said "they're just words" when he said them to her. He is very transparent, leaves his phone in the open now, and always lets me know where he is. 

I do know who she is and she is only a few hours away. They were actually arranging to meet on the chat log I found a few days before D-day, but he claims they didn't, and he did come right home from work that day. He claims she was pressuring him to meet in person and he knew it went to far and was trying to end it, but was afraid she would tell me, but I don't know how much of that I believe.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Sorry you are here. Women tend to take EA's harder then men and men tend to take PA's harder then women, based upon research I found.

My wife had a very sexual EA in 2010 and when the OM broke it off with her just over a month into it, my wife was begging him not to end it, and that is when I found the emails. She was saying I love you, you mean so much to me, etc. It was very difficult. Then less then a year later, as my IC warned me, she found another and the guy was closer and it went PA.

Here are some things I ffound on the internet: 

1. Pay attention to a change in his, or her normal routine. Is he, for instance, coming home from work later than usual on some nights? Sometimes these small changes to a person's routine mean nothing more than life has given them a reason to be unavailable, but they are still something that you want to be aware of.

2
Does he/she allow you to touch, or look through their phone, emails, etc? If your bf/gf is hiding their phone from you, or deleting all their messages before letting you have it, then there is probably something they don't want you to see.

3
Notice if they leave the room to take calls. If you ask who called/texted them, do they always tell you "It's nobody?" These are also important signals, which like number 2, show that your fiance, boyfriend, girlfriend, etc. has something to hide.

4
Have they seemed to become moody all of a sudden, and eager to start fights? Sometimes, a cheating lover will displace his/her shame, anger, and guilt onto you by starting a fight, which can then be blamed on you. In short, they need a place to throw off their negative feelings.

5
Has your bf/gf stopped talking to you? Did your significant other always have things to say, and has suddenly become very distant? Your relationship may be losing intimacy because your lover has started a new one with someone else.

6
Notice if a bf/gf is constantly putting someone else down. They may be saying awful things about that person, but pay attention to the fact that they are still talking about them 24/7. They are trying to fool you into believing that the person is undesirable, thus throwing the suspicion off of them.


7
Pay attention to changing interests, including music, political views, social issues, favorite books, or movies, etc. When someone spends enough time with someone else, they begin to adopt their views, or at least understand them. If your boyfriend or girlfriend is interested in things that they hated before, perhaps they are being influenced by someone else more than usual.


8
Have his/her friends begun to act oddly around you? When you casually talk to his friends, do they seem anxious, nervous, or eager to leave? They probably know something you don't know.


9
Does he smell different when he comes near you? Everyone knows this one is very cliche, but it's also true. If he's coming around smelling like a perfume that you don't wear, then he's been too close with someone who wears it.


10
Does he, or she seem to be very angry when you come over unannounced, or only text you when they are at home, never calling you? These are also signs of a between-the-sheets betrayal. For some reason, they don't want you at their home at certain times, and they don't seem to want to call you while they're at home. Suspicious, eh?


11
Catch them in a lie. Casually ask a bf/gf where they were such and such day, and let them answer. Remember their answer, and ask again a few days later. If they are lying constantly, then they will have a hard time keeping up. They may start to get angry at these simple questions, another big hint.


12
Watch for unexplained bills, receipts for meals, etc. bought for two people. If you keep finding receipts from McDonalds with 2 different meals on it, or 2 sodas in the cupholders, or a bill for a bracelet you didn't get, then watch out.


13
Pay attention to whether he has to "clean up" before letting you into his house, room, or car. If an earring is lying in the passenger side of his car, or a condom is behind their bed, extra time will probably be taken to dispose of those items.


14
Do they have other email accounts, or other online accounts? Or begin to, out of nowhere, change their passwords to keep you out of their accounts? Normally, if they didn't give you their password to start with, this is no problem. But if they've suddenly changed it to protect messages they've written, or chats they've had, you should be aware.


15
And lastly, notice whether he begins to buy you gifts out of nowhere, or she starts casually mentioning an end to your relationship. Questions such as, "What would you do if we broke up," are key hints. Men and women, both, become guilty. This guilt can easily be forgotten with an action/item for the other person, that makes the cheater seem selfless.


16
watch their emotions they will sometimes show the guilt in their face expression what they get home or they will come home late and try to say they're "working" long hours.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> Have they seemed to become moody all of a sudden, and eager to start fights? Sometimes, a cheating lover will displace his/her shame, anger, and guilt onto you by starting a fight, which can then be blamed on you. In short, they need a place to throw off their negative feelings.


This is the one that really hits home. During the time that I now know he was involved in the EA he would start arguments over the simplest little thing and say it would be better if we just divorced, but then when I agreed, he would change his mind. I now know that he was telling her we were fighting all the time (which we weren't). 

My H did keep his phone on his person at all times, even sleeping with it under his pillow, which I knew was a red flag, but I ignored it for too long. He no longer does this and his mood is much more stable. Even when we are having a bad day, he claims he still 100% knows where he wants to be and is 100% committed.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

checkingout said:


> This is the one that really hits home. During the time that I now know he was involved in the EA he would start arguments over the simplest little thing and say it would be better if we just divorced, but then when I agreed, he would change his mind. I now know that he was telling her we were fighting all the time (which we weren't).
> 
> My H did keep his phone on his person at all times, even sleeping with it under his pillow, which I knew was a red flag, but I ignored it for too long. He no longer does this and his mood is much more stable. Even when we are having a bad day, he claims he still 100% knows where he wants to be and is 100% committed.


He seems to be on the right road. Just watch him.


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## essexgirl (Nov 13, 2012)

checkingout - I can so relate to what you say about not being able to get over the things he said to the OW. The words my Husband said to his "special love" on the internet kept going round and round in my head and my DD was 9 months ago, I just can't seem to get over him saying these things. He also said it was "just words" - so were our marriage vows "just words". Now at the stage, what do I believe when he says something.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

essexgirl said:


> checkingout - I can so relate to what you say about not being able to get over the things he said to the OW. The words my Husband said to his "special love" on the internet kept going round and round in my head and my DD was 9 months ago, I just can't seem to get over him saying these things. He also said it was "just words" - so were our marriage vows "just words". Now at the stage, what do I believe when he says something.


It really sucks doesn't it?? I've known my H for 22 years and he has said the sweetest things to me in the last 5 months since D-day. He says he wants me forever and that he makes himself sick when he thinks about how close we were to D, and that he will never do anything to hurt me again.......and the whole time I just sit there thinking I wonder if he really means it or if "they're just words" or like he told me when I asked why he said those things to her "I just told her what she wanted to hear".


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

checkingout said:


> It really sucks doesn't it?? I've known my H for 22 years and he has said the sweetest things to me in the last 5 months since D-day. He says he wants me forever and that he makes himself sick when he thinks about how close we were to D, and that he will never do anything to hurt me again.......and the whole time I just sit there thinking I wonder if he really means it or if "they're just words" or like he told me when I asked why he said those things to her "I just told her what she wanted to hear".


My wife gave me the "i just said what they wanted to hear line too". Its utter crap. My wife also said she never loved the ap... In fact are you sure you didn't may my wife?


Unfortunately this crap is normal for an EA. The truth its he believed he loved her. When you found out he cut of contact because he actually does want to stay with you, but pat of him still wants her back. You need to make him change his number email and any other form of potential contact. He can never have any online social media again without your direct supervision. You should immediately start monitoring all of his activity to be sure he doesn't reach out to her and she doesn't get ahold of him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

When I found out my husband had been cheating, my workmates asked me why I didn't want to ask my husband for all the details.

I remember telling them, "Why would I want to do that? Every word out of his mouth is a lie from this day forward". I still feel that way. My trust was gone in an instant whether or not he tells the truth or not.

I actually felt somewhat bad for my husband, (stbxh), because he never had a chance.

Sometimes I admire people who can trust a liar again. WE HAVE ALL LIED. But that level of betrayal, I could never forgive.

My very long point is, there is no answer. Only you know what your gut tells you, your level of trust and boundaries, and your capacity for forgiveness, if possible. 

Time might help. ?? Counseling for yourself or both of you. ??

If you feel he is worth it, spy on his actions secretly to see if he keeps lying to you. 

It's all tough stuff to deal with mentally. Sorry for your pain.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

Ovid said:


> My wife gave me the "i just said what they wanted to hear line too". Its utter crap. My wife also said she never loved the ap... In fact are you sure you didn't may my wife?
> 
> 
> Unfortunately this crap is normal for an EA. The truth its he believed he loved her. When you found out he cut of contact because he actually does want to stay with you, but pat of him still wants her back. You need to make him change his number email and any other form of potential contact. He can never have any online social media again without your direct supervision. You should immediately start monitoring all of his activity to be sure he doesn't reach out to her and she doesn't get ahold of him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've closed his facebook, hacked his game and actually talked to her, and closed his email, but even after all that, I know with technology the way it is, there is absolutely no way to be 100% sure there is no contact. It is just too easy to use just about any device with wifi, load an app and then delete it, or create another email. It is just too easy.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

checkingout said:


> I've closed his facebook, hacked his game and actually talked to her, and closed his email, but even after all that, I know with technology the way it is, there is absolutely no way to be 100% sure there is no contact. It is just too easy to use just about any device with wifi, load an app and then delete it, or create another email. It is just too easy.


Install spyware on his phone, a key logger on his computer, and a voice activated recorder in his car. Spying on him will help you know if he really quit cheating. If he has give you peace of mind. If he hadn't it will help you uncover the truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

Ovid said:


> Install spyware on his phone, a key logger on his computer, and a voice activated recorder in his car. Spying on him will help you know if he really quit cheating. If he has give you peace of mind. If he hadn't it will help you uncover the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is there spyware for an iPhone that won't be detected?


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Maybe his iPhone should have an accident, and be replaced by a dumb phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

You may also want to consider limiting him to his bank card or a single credit card that allows you to see all charges online.

I'm giving you a lot of spying advice, but don't let spying run you. Its just in the beginning to help you establish trust again and be sure that its reasonable to trust. Once you have watched for awhile you should limit your spying to random checks and eventually to only when you trigger our he's done something that makes you question his actions. 

Be clear with him that any beach of trust from here on will result in divorce. Mean it when you say it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

Ovid said:


> You may also want to consider limiting him to his bank card or a single credit card that allows you to see all charges online.
> 
> I'm giving you a lot of spying advice, but don't let spying run you. Its just in the beginning to help you establish trust again and be sure that its reasonable to trust. Once you have watched for awhile you should limit your spying to random checks and eventually to only when you trigger our he's done something that makes you question his actions.
> 
> ...


He rarely uses his bank card and doesn't carry a credit card. I have been reluctant to use a VAR since his work vehicle is company owned. 

I have been very clear that even the smallest lie will result in divorce and he seems to understand it. He says at times he's afraid it's too much for me and I'll just end it.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

checkingout said:


> He rarely uses his bank card and doesn't carry a credit card. I have been reluctant to use a VAR since his work vehicle is company owned.
> 
> I have been very clear that even the smallest lie will result in divorce and he seems to understand it. He says at times he's afraid it's too much for me and I'll just end it.


My wife said the same. To some degree she was right. I ended the old M and three old way we did things. We built a new one on its ashes. You need to do the same. Things can't go back to what they were, because that's what created the situation to begin with. Be clear with him that if he does what you need you will do the work you need to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## essexgirl (Nov 13, 2012)

It really sucks doesn't it?? I've known my H for 22 years and he has said the sweetest things to me in the last 5 months since D-day. He says he wants me forever and that he makes himself sick when he thinks about how close we were to D, and that he will never do anything to hurt me again.......and the whole time I just sit there thinking I wonder if he really means it or if "they're just words" or like he told me when I asked why he said those things to her "I just told her what she wanted to hear". 


mirror image of what my husband said - and I DO BELIEVE that he didn't mean to hurt me!! but it is so hard to get over what he said to OW We have been together 36 years and I so trusted him completely.... but your Husband is MAKING a good effort, but mine has only just started..... I still look at his facebook account (he doesn't know I have the password) and his email account and he doesn't do anything that is improper.
I Don't think I can ever forgive or forget but hey I am 64 what else can I do. I KNOW I can't complete with younger woman, but have to live with it and hope that he is TRULY sorry:scratchhead:


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

essexgirl said:


> It really sucks doesn't it?? I've known my H for 22 years and he has said the sweetest things to me in the last 5 months since D-day. He says he wants me forever and that he makes himself sick when he thinks about how close we were to D, and that he will never do anything to hurt me again.......and the whole time I just sit there thinking I wonder if he really means it or if "they're just words" or like he told me when I asked why he said those things to her "I just told her what she wanted to hear".
> 
> 
> mirror image of what my husband said - and I DO BELIEVE that he didn't mean to hurt me!! but it is so hard to get over what he said to OW We have been together 36 years and I so trusted him completely.... but your Husband is MAKING a good effort, but mine has only just started..... I still look at his facebook account (he doesn't know I have the password) and his email account and he doesn't do anything that is improper.
> I Don't think I can ever forgive or forget but hey I am 64 what else can I do. I KNOW I can't complete with younger woman, but have to live with it and hope that he is TRULY sorry:scratchhead:


You don't have to live with anything. You always have a choice.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

Ovid said:


> My wife said the same. To some degree she was right. I ended the old M and three old way we did things. We built a new one on its ashes. You need to do the same. Things can't go back to what they were, because that's what created the situation to begin with. Be clear with him that if he does what you need you will do the work you need to do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How long were you married? How long has it been since D-day? How is your marriage today? Do you trust her?


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## essexgirl (Nov 13, 2012)

Ovid - I know I have a choice BUT I am on a pension and if we sale our house I could just afford a Caravan (Trailer) I also have grandchildren and don't want them to have their "granny and granddad splitting, as they have enough disruption at the moment. So leaving is not really an option, perhaps if I was 15 years younger mayble


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

checkingout said:


> How long were you married? How long has it been since D-day? How is your marriage today? Do you trust her?


16 years married at the time. 20 years together.

It's been over a year since.

We're doing very well now.

I don't have the same concept of trust that I had prior to Dday. I trusted her even when I shouldn't have. She had unconditional trust. Now I don't even believe in unconditional trust. It was a mistake. Now she has reasonable trust.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

essexgirl said:


> Ovid - I know I have a choice BUT I am on a pension and if we sale our house I could just afford a Caravan (Trailer) I also have grandchildren and don't want them to have their "granny and granddad splitting, as they have enough disruption at the moment. So leaving is not really an option, perhaps if I was 15 years younger mayble


No pressure. Just remember you have a choice. Never feel trapped.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

A GAUNT Wolf was almost dead with hunger when he happened to meet a House-dog who was passing by. “Ah, Cousin,” said the Dog. “I knew how it would be; your irregular life will soon be the ruin of you. Why do you not work steadily as I do, and get your food regularly given to you?” 1 
“I would have no objection,” said the Wolf, “if I could only get a place.” 2 
“I will easily arrange that for you,” said the Dog; “come with me to my master and you shall share my work.” 3 
So the Wolf and the Dog went towards the town together. On the way there the Wolf noticed that the hair on a certain part of the Dog’s neck was very much worn away, so he asked him how that had come about. 4 
“Oh, it is nothing,” said the Dog. “That is only the place where the collar is put on at night to keep me chained up; it chafes a bit, but one soon gets used to it.” 5 
“Is that all?” said the Wolf. “Then good-bye to you, Master Dog.”
“BETTER STARVE FREE THAN BE A FAT SLAVE.” 

-Aesop

See how great TAM is. Ovid quoting Aesop...


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

checkingout said:


> It is possible to love someone you chat with on a game and talk to on the phone? If so, what are the signs to look for that he really does have feelings for her?


Yes.

Married 25+ years. Wife's EA 2006/2007. Completely remote but she did fall in love. And that's part of the danger. It is partial fantasy. The WS tends to fill in the blanks as to who the AP really is and usually in a good way. Did your husband simply let his emotions carry him down the road? Probably. In many cases the WS doesn't even realize how "attached" they have become to their AP. My wife didn't until it ended and she went into a painful funk that finally brought the affair fully into the open.

Your husband appears to be doing the right things to recover. But now you know he is vulnerable to outside forces. While you recover work on any issues in the marriage so that you are both happier in the marriage. Given time the trust will return but as with my own, it will never be quite the same. While certainly not a daily nagging at your intuition, it will ebb to a point that it really isn't much of an issue. Only time and his continued honesty with you will repair it. If you can emerge in tact you marriage has a good chance to be stronger than what it was due to the work and pain you endured in the efforts to recover it. It royally sucks but in the end can leave you both happier and have a greater appreciation for each other. Good luck.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

essexgirl said:


> Ovid - I know I have a choice BUT I am on a pension and if we sale our house I could just afford a Caravan (Trailer) I also have grandchildren and don't want them to have their "granny and granddad splitting, as they have enough disruption at the moment. So leaving is not really an option, perhaps if I was 15 years younger mayble


It is just amazing the choices we end up with after an A. Whether we D or R the road is hard.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

I think most of my difficulty trying to figure this thing out is that he adamantly denies having any feelings and he doesn't act like he has a broke heart or anything. He says that you never really know someone you talk to online so there is no way to love them, but then I know he talked to her on the phone and told her how great they were for each other and that he truly loved her a lot. I am so confused that I over-analyze every little detail and question absolutely everything.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

checkingout said:


> I think most of my difficulty trying to figure this thing out is that he adamantly denies having any feelings and he doesn't act like he has a broke heart or anything. He says that you never really know someone you talk to online so there is no way to love them, but then I know he talked to her on the phone and told her how great they were for each other and that he truly loved her a lot. I am so confused that I over-analyze every little detail and question absolutely everything.


Again you are describing my Ws actions on Dday. It's uncanny. I had the same reaction you are having. I thought about all the times she said she loved him, then she went completely dark on him with no problem, and told me she just said what he wanted to hear. I know she thought she loved him when she said it. It left me wondering about all of the times she said she loved me.

Don't fight with yourself. Allow yourself to feel all of it as much as you need to. You're grieving. You can hold it back, but it will extend the process out longer. Feel all of it as much as you can stand. 

Have him give you a detailed timeline. It will help you start getting the pieces in place, and give him a way to start earning your trust again.

Start working on yourself. Do things that will make you feel better about you as a person. Get in great shape. Take up new or old hobbies. Replace all of your clothes. Learn a new language. Whatever it takes. Just really focus on building yourself up.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

At what point is it too late to still be asking questions...6 months....a year? I am worried that the more I ask about her, the more she's in his head. Is it counter-productive to ask what he liked about her or should I just let her fade away?


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

checkingout said:


> At what point is it too late to still be asking questions...6 months....a year? I am worried that the more I ask about her, the more she's in his head. Is it counter-productive to ask what he liked about her or should I just let her fade away?


Ask what you want when you need to. It's his job to answer honestly as much as you need. There is no time limit. You will eventually be satisfied with the answers, or realize there is no answer, depending on the question.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

checkingout said:


> At what point is it too late to still be asking questions...6 months....a year? I am worried that the more I ask about her, the more she's in his head. Is it counter-productive to ask what he liked about her or should I just let her fade away?


I'm willing to bet you're also worried the questions could drive him away. Don't worry about that. In order for things to work you need to heal, and he needs to help you. If he leaves over the questions, he wasn't really there for the long haul anyway.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

Ovid said:


> I'm willing to bet you're also worried the questions could drive him away. Don't worry about that. In order for things to work you need to heal, and he needs to help you. If he leaves over the questions, he wasn't really there for the long haul anyway.


You'd win that bet....and it sucks!


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

checkingout said:


> You'd win that bet....and it sucks!


Don't play that game. It's hard to R because there are so many ways to get it wrong. If he runs because of questions, then he wasn't really remorseful, and you'd be right back to Dday as soon as things cooled off. If you have questions you need to ask them. 

The only way to R is if you both agree to be an open book, and you stick to it.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

Does anyone else feel that TAM causes more triggers? It seems like the more I read, the more I feel like its hopeless and that everyone cheats. I catch myself seeing couples everywhere I go and wondering which one of them is a cheater.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

It's like reding a book that lists diseases. Reda it enough and you'll find a disease you swear you have.

Unfortunately the other side of the coin is that TAM also opens your eyes. You never realized how common cheating was before. Now you'll spot the signs fast.

Look at the other side of the coin when you look at TAM. All of the faithful spouces posting here. Yes they got burned, but it proves not everyone cheats.

Let the triggers roll. It helps you process through the greiving.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

I agree with everything everyone has said so far. But, you HAVE to be able to ask the questions and get the answers.
My H had 3 EAs the last two with the same OW. Yes, part of me thinks I was a fool to give him another chance but I found TAM late and had already decided to do so and went for it.

It is hard for me to relate to some on here as we have been married 34 years now and have no young kids to worry about. I feel like the old lady here sometimes, but much of it is helpful.

My H has done what yours appears to be doing, transparency, no unaccounted for time, no deleting phone history or text messages, blocked her # , answers all my questions willingly, even the ones that would make someone uncomfortable.

I am not trying to bring it up all the time now, and after 5 months, there really isn't much more to ask. The one question I have that he can never answer to my satisfaction is 'why', why risk it again?
If your H is serious about helping you heal he will answer any and all questions any time and understand why he has to do so.

My H did tell her he loved her, even though they vowed never to meet, and wouldn't have as she is 1000 miles away. It still hurts. He is baffled as to how they ignited the affair so quickly again after 8 months of no contact. He said he still missed her friendship but it went quickly from that back to what they were doing before, sexting, deception, secret accts etc, all while I thought we were in R and having the best year of our lives for many years.

You should both read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. The AP like my H will be amazed at how typical they were and not nearly so unique and special was their affair. I could not put it down myself.

I do believe my H now, but there will forever be a scar on our marriage. It is healing, but it will always be there and I don't know how long I will still notice it. I do not think about it all the time now, so that's progress.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

PamJ said:


> I agree with everything everyone has said so far. But, you HAVE to be able to ask the questions and get the answers.
> My H had 3 EAs the last two with the same OW. Yes, part of me thinks I was a fool to give him another chance but I found TAM late and had already decided to do so and went for it.
> 
> It is hard for me to relate to some on here as we have been married 34 years now and have no young kids to worry about. I feel like the old lady here sometimes, but much of it is helpful.
> ...



I'm so sorry you've had to deal with this 3 times. You are much stronger than I am. I really believe I'm only just barely scraping up enough energy to deal with it this once. I made it clear to H again today that this is our only chance to do things different and if he EVER does anything like this again, it's over. 

We've been married 20 years, with only 1 child at home, 1 grown. 

If you don't mind my asking, how did you catch your H this time? I haven't used a VAR, but I do monitor his phone and closed his email and Facebook. He was using a messaging app mostly and a game on his phone. I have his phone on my iTunes account now so I can see what apps are downloaded. 

I'm really angry at myself for being so stupid. I had suspicions for many months, but kept denying it to myself, thinking he would never do something like that, but then one day I just couldn't deny it anymore and went snooping. It took about 3 minutes to find his chat log. I can't believe I didn't look sooner. He isn't real teckie and didn't realize that his chats in the app were being backed up to his gmail account. He still hasn't asked me how I found out about it and he still hadn't deleted the chat log when I closed the email. :scratchhead:


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

checkingout said:


> I'm really angry at myself for being so stupid. I had suspicions for many months, but kept denying it to myself, thinking he would never do something like that, but then one day I just couldn't deny it anymore and went snooping. It took about 3 minutes to find his chat log. I can't believe I didn't look sooner. He isn't real teckie and didn't realize that his chats in the app were being backed up to his gmail account. He still hasn't asked me how I found out about it and he still hadn't deleted the chat log when I closed the email. :scratchhead:


It wasn't stupid. I did the same thing. I kept denying because I trusted her. It got to the point that it was impossible to ignore. When I went looking it was worse than I could have imagined.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

checkingout said:


> He seems to be doing everything he can to prove it, *but my problem is I don't believe it when he tells me he loves me anymore since he said "they're just words" when he said them to her.* He is very transparent, leaves his phone in the open now, and always lets me know where he is.


And they are just words to you as well.

He's addicted to betraying. 

Just an educated hunch, but I think I can guarantee you it will continue.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

<<If you don't mind my asking, how did you catch your H this time? >>

I saw the OWs cell# on his call history on his phone. I hadn't checked in a while and, apparently, he had been deleting the entire call history daily before coming home anyway, so this was a fluke. The one time he forgot to do so.

He was also uninstalling the aim app daily as that was how I found out the time before. That time I had no suspicion and the power was out one night. I didn't have a smart phone yet and picked up his to play a game after 2 hours of no power. He was sleeping as he had to get up early. I saw the aim app,which I had not seen before and then all their texts because he wasn't deleting them then. He had gotten much smarter this time, but , they always get caught eventually. It's hard to keep up all the various ways he had to conceal things.


<< He was using a messaging app mostly and a game on his phone.>>

This is what my WH was doing. He met her on Words by Post, or something and there was a chat box so they chatted, then chatted a lot , then switched over to aol/aim chat where it got very heated very fast.

I don't know if I am stronger. I was kicking myself for not calling it 3rd strike you're out. He had given me trickle truth to where I almost believed him that they were just friends now etc etc etc. 
When I found out the extent of it I went numb and realized I could not make him be faithful. I gave up and he realized he was about to lose me and put an end to the EA. 

5 months later I am starting to believe he is serious this time but I will not deal with this again.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> And they are just words to you as well.
> 
> He's addicted to betraying.
> 
> Just an educated hunch, but I think I can guarantee you it will continue.


I have absolutely no doubts that he was faithful the first 20 years we were together. I really do believe he loves me most of the time, but I do have bad days where I doubt everything. His actions show true remorse and he tries to show me every day, but I guess only time will tell. 

Do you believe an addiction can happen from this after so long?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It is real cognitive dissonance when someone says 'it was just words,' when those same words are supposed to have real meaning in another context.

It is possible, though, that they are just words. Words have meaning only within a system, only in relation to other words. Your H's 'I love yous' to the OW were in a fantasy context. They made sense within that context, a context where you were background noise and she was at center stage. So, within that reference frame, within that context, the words were real and made sense to him. Once that context is gone, though, the elements that made those words meaningful to him are also gone & he now says, 'they were just words.'

I think you can believe him when he says that they were just words, in that that's what they are to him now, now that the affair fantasy context is missing. Since you are the reality, those words have a lasting meaning that is grounded in a real context when he says them to you. He senses that they mean something much more substantial & I think that is correct.

I agree with the others that you need to make sure that his fantasy context doesn't reassert itself. It is then that the words suddenly mean something to him again. NC is essential.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

PamJ said:


> He had gotten much smarter this time, but , they always get caught eventually. It's hard to keep up all the various ways he had to conceal things.


I hope you're right about that. His behavior has completely changed, but I'm still suspicious over the slightest little thing. He has told me that he feels like a huge weight has been lifted off him not having to worry about being caught. I hope that's enough for him not to start again.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> It is real cognitive dissonance when someone says 'it was just words,' when those same words are supposed to have real meaning in another context.
> 
> It is possible, though, that they are just words. Words have meaning only within a system, only in relation to other words. Your H's 'I love yous' to the OW were in a fantasy context. They made sense within that context, a context where you were background noise and she was at center stage. So, within that reference frame, within that context, the words were real and made sense to him. Once that context is gone, though, the elements that made those words meaningful to him are also gone & he now says, 'they were just words.'
> 
> ...



This is pretty much how he explained he was feeling at the time. He says it was just an escape from reality and he didn't really feel like himself while he was doing. When I asked him how I can believe the words he says to me, his answer was "because you know the real me". He says most of what he told her were just lies about himself and he feels that she was doing the same, at least that's what he tells me now.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

If it's the words you are struggling with now, I can tell you that I do 'words' for a living & I don't think there is such a thing as absolute value associated with a word. A linguist can explain to you in formal terms what it is your WH is trying to say, but that may or may not help because the hurt is so deep. Just remember that there are many different contexts in which we say and feel those words. When I say them to my children, they mean something different from when I say them to my H. 

So, I think he meant them with the OW at the time, but the meaning was different. You can see from your thread that we all are focusing on keeping the NC intact (you making sure as best you can that the NC is real), since this is the key to making sure that his previous words to her are truly meaningless.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

<<I hope you're right about that. His behavior has completely changed, but I'm still suspicious over the slightest little thing. He has told me that he feels like a huge weight has been lifted off him not having to worry about being caught. I hope that's enough for him not to start again.>>

Mine has said the same thing. It was a real chore having to be so cautious and go through so many steps each day and then the worry of being caught and what would happen to us if he was caught. 

He keeps saying how they were cutting down on the time they spent talking and weren't "playing anymore" his word to make it not sound so bad instead of sexting/ or cyber sexing/fantasy role playing etc. This doesn't help me because I will never really truly know in my heart and mind what exactly what went on. Even though I believe what he's told me, if that makes any sense. 

Still, he kept it up for 5 months this past time when I thought everything was great with us.He says "It was!" I said "For you!" "YOU had it all, her/me the marriage. YOU knew what was going on" I had only an idea that all was well and now I feel cheated for that time he was sharing his time with someone other than me.

Knowledge is power, you've got have it, all the facts.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

PamJ said:


> He keeps saying how they were cutting down on the time they spent talking and weren't "playing anymore" his word to make it not sound so bad instead of sexting/ or cyber sexing/fantasy role playing etc. This doesn't help me because I will never really truly know in my heart and mind what exactly what went on. Even though I believe what he's told me, if that makes any sense.


My H said the same thing. He said he was trying to quit and would ignore her for a while, but then she would send a sarcastic message and he would be worried she was angry and would tell me everything. He says he was trying to "wean" her if that makes sense. He does say that it was over just before I found out and when I really think about it, we were getting closer again in the month or so before D-day, but I still don't know how much I believe at this point.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

PamJ said:


> Still, he kept it up for 5 months this past time when I thought everything was great with us.He says "It was!" I said "For you!" "YOU had it all, her/me the marriage. YOU knew what was going on" I had only an idea that all was well and now I feel cheated for that time he was sharing his time with someone other than me.


So true. It was great for him. And for you the feeling from that time is a lie.

Have you asked him if he would have thought it was so great if he had found out that you were having an A at the time?

Some people really can't be empathetic. They can only feel the pain if the offense is directed at them.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

<<Have you asked him if he would have thought it was so great if he had found out that you were having an A at the time?>.

I can't get a clear answer when I pose this question to him. His answers seem perhaps not quite sincere, or maybe what he wants to believe or because he was still protecting himself, or maybe because he's a guy and doesn't totally get my perspective. 

I think part of him believes he would be more devastated by a PA. He has told me he wouldn't feel that it was a deal-breaker if I had a EA, yet, he was always the more jealous one when we were younger, partially due to a disastrous first marriage when they were both way too young and she left him. I dealt with that fallout for several years into our relationship. 

When I told him it killed me when I saw him text "I love you" to her, as mentioned in this thread, he says that was just all part of their fantasy thing. More words. So many similar stories here.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

<<So true. It was great for him. And for you the feeling from that time is a lie>>

Exactly, we WERE getting along so much better, appreciating our time together, going out more, doing more fun things, but then, to me, it was all dashed away in that day of discovery-gone forever.

I can't think of it as a great year, anymore, even though 8 months of it was without her in the picture, it's all gone now. So, we are starting over yet again, one more time.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

PamJ said:


> <<So true. It was great for him. And for you the feeling from that time is a lie>>
> 
> Exactly, we WERE getting along so much better, appreciating our time together, going out more, doing more fun things, but then, to me, it was all dashed away in that day of discovery-gone forever.
> 
> I can't think of it as a great year, anymore, even though 8 months of it was without her in the picture, it's all gone now. So, we are starting over yet again, one more time.


I feel the same way. We took 2 vacations last year (something we hadn't done in a very long time) and now that I know he waited until I went to the hotel pool so that he could sneak and talk to her, all those memories are ruined.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

I'm struggling more now than ever. I've gotten over the initial shock and hurt, but now I just feel numb inside. I do love my husband very much and want our marriage to work, but I just can't go on checking up on him all the time. Sometimes I just feel like I don't even care what he does anymore and then other times I feel like I will do anything to make us work. At what point is it too much to continue checking his phone and verifying everything? I want my family together and I feel it will be better in the long run, but I'm just so tired of the self doubting. I'm tired of thinking I need to compare myself to her. I'm tired of asking myself if he thinks she's better looking than me. I'm tired of wondering if I know the whole truth. I'm tired of thinking he would rather be with her. I'm tired of questioning everything he says. I'm tired of thinking about it at all.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

checkingout said:


> I'm struggling more now than ever. I've gotten over the initial shock and hurt, but now I just feel numb inside. I do love my husband very much and want our marriage to work, but I just can't go on checking up on him all the time. Sometimes I just feel like I don't even care what he does anymore and then other times I feel like I will do anything to make us work. At what point is it too much to continue checking his phone and verifying everything? I want my family together and I feel it will be better in the long run, but I'm just so tired of the self doubting. I'm tired of thinking I need to compare myself to her. I'm tired of asking myself if he thinks she's better looking than me. I'm tired of wondering if I know the whole truth. I'm tired of thinking he would rather be with her. I'm tired of questioning everything he says. I'm tired of thinking about it at all.


You're right on schedule. Just stay the course. Take a break from checking up on him, but leave the option open to yourself. Maybe even schedule it, like say next Sunday.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

How do I truly know if he's sincere? We talk more now than we ever did and he's told me everything I ever wanted to hear. For 20 years he was never really a talker, said "I love you", but none of the real sappy stuffy, so now I question if he really means it. He has ordered me a new wedding ring and asked me to marry him again, but I'm afraid if we do renew our vows, when looking back in the future, she will be part of those memories.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

checkingout said:


> How do I truly know if he's sincere? We talk more now than we ever did and he's told me everything I ever wanted to hear. For 20 years he was never really a talker, said "I love you", but none of the real sappy stuffy, so now I question if he really means it. He has ordered me a new wedding ring and asked me to marry him again, but I'm afraid if we do renew our vows, when looking back in the future, she will be part of those memories.


A new marriage is the way to go. You have to let go of the old one and start from the beginning with a fresh perspective.

He will have to prove his sincerity through his actions. It sounds like he's on the right track. 

Continue to monitor without him knowing, but limit it to once a week, later go to once a month. After awhile longer limit to when you trigger, or something makes you question things. 

Take your time and ease into it. Let things happen slowly. Don't push yourself to be all in.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

<<He has ordered me a new wedding ring and asked me to marry him again, but I'm afraid if we do renew our vows, when looking back in the future, she will be part of those memories.>.

If it was his idea to order you a new ring, that is amazing. Even if it is not, it's a good start. 

I lost my wedding band and engagement ring in 2010-they were tacked together as the diamond ring band was getting thin.

Anyway, early in 2011 I bought myself a new band because it felt funny without one and my H was not inclined to do so. I felt guilty for losing them so decided not to worry about replacing the diamond one. Nov. 2011 he started his EA and ended it when I discovered it in March 2012.

I was hoping he would make the gesture of a new ring but he didn't, so when he asked me what I wanted for Christmas 2012, I told him a new diamond ring, but not a solitaire, a 3 stone , more of a new commitment/forever ring.

We made a night of it, went out found a ring, had dinner, walked around the town talking etc. It was a great night.

March of 2013 I discovered he had started up again with the OW in November of 2012 (see a pattern here?) So, even though he told me they didn't talk much over Christmas, that whole night is tainted. The nice holiday memories now gone.

He has mentioned renewing our vows, wanted to do so when we went to Vegas but we weren't there long enough to do anything, and he didn't bring it up again. Now he says maybe when we go to St Lucia in January but I am not going to do anything about it.

Historically I have always been the one to make the plans, vacations, trips, just about anything "we" decide to do, I make happen.

So, we will see if that happens. It would be a great gesture if he does, but I am not holding my breath.

But, for you, this could be a good start. You may feel differently down the road than you do now, fewer doubts.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

PamJ said:


> .If it was his idea to order you a new ring, that is amazing. Even if it is not, it's a good start.
> 
> I lost my wedding band and engagement ring in 2010-they were tacked together as the diamond ring band was getting thin.
> 
> ...



Yes, it was completely his idea, and actually really surprised me since I haven't worn a ring since I had was pregnant and mine got too tight. He got his ring tattooed on in late 2011. 

I've always been the one to plan things too, but he has recently started taking the initiative. I never bring up getting remarried, but he does frequently, which I hope is a sign he's sincere. Just Friday he asked if I wanted to get remarried at the same place we did originally or somewhere new. 

How long have you been married?


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

checkingout said:


> *How do I truly know if he's sincere?* We talk more now than we ever did and he's told me everything I ever wanted to hear. For 20 years he was never really a talker, said "I love you", but none of the real sappy stuffy, so now I question if he really means it. *He has ordered me a new wedding ring and asked me to marry him again*, but I'm afraid if we do renew our vows, when looking back in the future, she will be part of those memories.


Dear checkingout,

You don't know if he's sincere but, then again, you never knew. In fact, none of us ever really know what is going on in our spouse's mind when he or she says "I love you."

So what do we do? We observe our spouse's behavior over time to see if his or her actions match his or her words. If they do, we accept that the "I love you" statements are meaningful. If they don't, we conclude the opposite.

You seem to be looking for a secret formula or magic wand that will let you know if your WH is truly sorry for what he's done and whether he really loves you or not. Sorry to have to tell you this but it doesn't exist. Only time will tell and the way you will know is if his actions match his words. Until then, you will have to decide if you are willing to live in a kind of watchful state of limbo or if, for your own mental health, you need to end your marriage. These are you're only real choices.

I don't mean to discourage you from asking questions like this on TAM/CWI. Some people find this a very good place to share frustrations and to vent. If that helps you, great. But don't expect anyone here (or anywhere) to be able to tell you how sincere your WH is or what the future holds. (If I knew, I'd tell you but it would cost you a fortune. )

Finally, I would strongly discourage you from renewing your wedding vows at this time, for two reasons:

1) You are not ready to recommit yourself to him and thus the renewal ceremony would be a sham. This would put you in the uncomfortable place of having made a promise that, at the moment you made it, you knew you might not be able to keep.

2) You would be sending your WH the wrong signal about where your marriage stands at the moment. He needs to understand that you are not yet sure if you want to remain his W and that therefore he has much more work to do to win you back.

I hope that this is helpful and I wish you well whatever you decide to do.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

carmen ohio said:


> Dear checkingout,
> 
> You don't know if he's sincere but, then again, you never knew. In fact, none of us ever really know what is going on in our spouse's mind when he or she says "I love you."
> 
> ...


I know there isn't a secret formula or magic wand, sometimes it just helps to post the thoughts that I'm obsessing about. 

Thank you for your insight about my vow renewal. I have decided to put of that decision and re-evaluate in 6 months.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

<<How long have you been married?>>

It was 34 years this past June. So, yeah, I am the old-ish lady here.
The trip to St Lucia is partially for our 35th anniversary even though that isn't until June. We have to plan these things when it works for our business.


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## Dreamsfly (Oct 23, 2013)

I am sorry that you are going through this. 
Many people bail at the sign of a cheater. Others, buckle up and realize there's more to it and sometimes something going on in the relationship opens that door.
My ExH, a month after we were married started talking to women on the internet, pretending he was single. I knew something didn't feel right. I am not a snooper.
I finally, 2 years later, snooped because there was a reason, found his secret email, printed out the evidence and confronted him.
He was immature at the time for sure (37), used it as his fantasy of not being married because he really was afraid of committing to one woman. He never had before. He'd cheated on EVERY girlfriend and his previous wife. 
I had asked him what was different this time. He gave my some bull that I believed.
Some guys, just can't handle being with one woman and need a backup. Others, are scared. Or there's a communication breakdown.
It's hard to trust again. It takes a lot of faith. It's a decision you make. If you decide you can't trust, don't torture yourself. Give it a dedicated amount of time. If you don't feel different, then you have to figure out the next step.
You are stronger than you think. And you have a lot to give to the world. Don't let this squish your energy and who you are.

Good luck


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

checkingout said:


> How do I truly know if he's sincere? We talk more now than we ever did and he's told me everything I ever wanted to hear. For 20 years he was never really a talker, said "I love you", but none of the real sappy stuffy, so now I question if he really means it. He has ordered me a new wedding ring and asked me to marry him again, but I'm afraid if we do renew our vows, when looking back in the future, she will be part of those memories.


It's a hard call I know but from what you said above and other things, like he makes plans for you to do things and didn't before, he does seem genuine. I don't say that lightly. I don't even get that he is thinking about OW much if at all, to be honest. 
You said you are getting tired snooping. Why not look on it as a good thing, something you will do for a while that is giving you the GOOD news that he is genuine. You won't have to do it forever, it will gradually fall away. 
I was glad when you said he said felt a weight had lifted when you found out. He sounded as if he was relieved to let her go and not that she was someone he wanted to keep around. 
You have told him NC? 100% NC? And what did she say when you spoke to her?
He 'loved' her? As much as you can on a screen. You love someone you see first thing in the morning, have children with, put out the garbage with. Someone you know in real life and not on a screen game.
WS will always try and make it appear less than it was as they think they hurt you less. For me I wanted to know the whole truth. NOT getting it hurt more. Maybe tell him that if you are still not happy you got all the truth. 
Also don't agree to the remarriage too easily. Make him wait with a "Let's see how we go for 6/12/18? months." He does have to win you back.
Make sure to let him know how BS typically react, e.g. take 1 step forward, then 2 back, triggers, mood up then down. Copy and paste pieces from here and show them to him to explain it. So many WS don't 'get it'. Tell him he will have to be patient with you and that your reactions are normal. Get him a book on the effect of affairs. Or download some info from here. He needs to be very active in understanding what you are going through.

It sounds very promising from where I sit. Keep posting, vent here and that way you won't be venting on him 24/7. Tempting I know


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