# So what am I supposed to do with this?



## frankd (Feb 22, 2012)

Here's what happened this morning:
We're lounging in the family room, she's reading the paper drinking her tea on the couch and I'm in the easy chair reading the paper drinking my coffee. 
She gets up and says, "this is how Saturday's are supposed to be- my body's broken from a long week at work and now I can just veg and recover." 
That's kind of funny, so I respond, "how about we go back upstairs and we can give each other back rubs to ease the pain and then perhaps continue rubbing until, you know, we both feel better", wink, wink.
She says, "I hope it doesn't rain all day."
I say, "how about that back rub idea?", wink, wink.
She says, "Do you want to go into the city to do some shopping?"
I say, "Nah, forget it."

Here's the background:
- big house, empty nesters, we don't have to work (meaning there shouldn't be any stress)
- she's 61, I'm 65
- haven't had intercourse for about 20 years
- there's been some sex in the area of "are you done yet?". I concluded she was just laying there for me to touch and feel, which became meaningless and mechanical, so I gave up.
- in fact, I noticed that whenever I touched her in an affectionate way, she would stand still like you're supposed to do if you meet a bear - don't move and he'll lose interest, then he'll just walk away. I walked away and never touched her again.
- all sex stopped about 4 years ago, all physical affection ended about 2 years ago.
- there is a minor vaginal issue that her doctor said could be cured with exercise, but she didn't do it
- doctor also suggested estrogen cream, but she never used it.
- oh, and we've slept in separate bedrooms for about 5 years (except for a 6 month period, though on opposite sides of the bed).

What else can I say? If the opposite of love is indifference, then I guess I'm there.
I'm an affectionate person, I like to share my thoughts and feelings about the woman I love, but I'm so, so lonely.


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## skerzoid (Feb 7, 2017)

Sorry, I would have been gone twenty years ago. I am older than you but I wouldn't put up with that baloney. I'd rather die alone in the street. There are a lot of good looking women who are 50 plus around. I would move out and start living a separate life or separate in the house and come and go as you please. She's not a wife, she's a roommate.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

frankd said:


> Here's what happened this morning:
> We're lounging in the family room, she's reading the paper drinking her tea on the couch and I'm in the easy chair reading the paper drinking my coffee.
> She gets up and says, "this is how Saturday's are supposed to be- my body's broken from a long week at work and now I can just veg and recover."
> That's kind of funny, so I respond, "how about we go back upstairs and we can give each other back rubs to ease the pain and then perhaps continue rubbing until, you know, we both feel better", wink, wink.
> ...


Say? Nothing. But you could do something for a change. Why would any woman be sexually attracted to a man who allows himself to be forced into celibacy? Women are drawn to strength. What communicates strength in begging a woman for sex, or meekly accepting her consistent sexual rejections?

If she doesn't want you any more, then accept that, and find someone who does.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Please tell us why you have accepted this and stayed.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

You accepted the situation long ago and didn't do anything about it. The dynamic is now laid in concrete.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

She ignored your hints because she's obviously not interested and hasn't been for years. She wants you as a companion and nothing more. I doubt she'll be convinced to restart something she's so willingly stopped. A not uncommon situation, unfortunately.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

frankd said:


> - haven't had intercourse for about 20 years
> 
> - all sex stopped about 4 years ago, all physical affection ended about 2 years ago.
> 
> ...


If I was in your position, I'd say, "I'm done." Why are you accepting this? Your wife has checked out. She's with you to maintain her comfortable lifestyle. Nothing else.



frankd said:


> … I like to share my thoughts and feelings about the woman I love, but I'm so, so lonely.


And you will continue to be lonely if you remain in this deader-than-dead marriage.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

At this stage all you are to her is background noise.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Anything that you can not say NO to .... you are the slave of. 

The hardest part of this reality is that you need to accept that this will not change. You will not turn it around into her "wanting" you.

There is only one way but it is a bit of a nasty trick: You have to remove all of her security. Pack your crap and tell her "I'm not living like this anymore."

Her internal instincts will kick in a you just won't believe that she suddenly is interested in sex. But do you really want it under that condition ?

I've said it before and will say it again: There is no such thing as NEGOTIATING desire from your partner. They are into you .... or they are not.

Under your long standing convention that you will accept this behavior ........ you are stuck in it.

At her age lots of the regular rules that can re-stroke desire become less effective ...... the hormones are not what they used to be.

Genuine desire would be your only hope ...... and she doesn't have it. Your fighting a losing battle.

Take some responsibility in understanding you have set yourself up for this by accepting it for so long.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

This breaks my heart  Marriage is not supposed to be like this. 

Unfortunately I don't think there's anything you can do - if it takes you threatening to leave for her to have sex with you, do you really want that?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

It must be okay. 

Your actions show her this every day you continue to stay.

Your problem in this situation is that you resent yourself for tolerating it, then you project that anger on to your wife.

If you change nothing, nothing changes. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You've been rolling over for 20 years. Keep rolling it's too late now.

You made your bed now you get to lay in it.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Marc878 said:


> You've been rolling over for 20 years. Keep rolling it's too late now.
> 
> You made your bed now you get to lay in it.


No. You can get divorced at any age.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Livvie said:


> No. You can get divorced at any age.


Nope, that's never gonna happen


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

skerzoid said:


> Sorry, I would have been gone twenty years ago. I am older than you but I wouldn't put up with that baloney. I'd rather die alone in the street. There are a lot of good looking women who are 50 plus around. I would move out and start living a separate life or separate in the house and come and go as you please. She's not a wife, she's a roommate.


An easy statement to make.

A hard reality to go out and stake, life change, break.

As you age, your 'will' won't.

As you age. 
Your energy fails you.
As you age, you realize you are not the sage.

As you age, you build up a lifetime of security.
Starting over breaks down that surety.

For what?
Puszy?

Since when do men live 'only' for puszy?
Since forever and a day, they are so fuzzy-woozy.

Good thing for women.
Not so much for men, methinks.

Most men, this, I know.





[THM]- THRD


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

It seems....

Men and women live more for green cash than for warm ass.

Both supply comfort, one only in stores, and in purchased and later admired knickknacks.

The other wherever, whenever naked bodies press tick-tacks, belately together.

You cannot take love to the bank with you.
You cannot take cash to the ash bin with you, in passing.

Just Sayin'





[THM]- The Typist I


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> skerzoid said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, I would have been gone twenty years ago. I am older than you but I wouldn't put up with that baloney. I'd rather die alone in the street. There are a lot of good looking women who are 50 plus around. I would move out and start living a separate life or separate in the house and come and go as you please. She's not a wife, she's a roommate.
> ...


It's more than just the sex. It's the connection that goes with it. Some men, even older men, want a love connection, a mate, not just a cold FRIEND and ROOMMATE of a wife.

It's more than just the sex.

The woman the OP describes as his wife sounds very cold. She doesn't even acknowledge his comments about sex. That's not a partnership, that's not a connection, it's complete bull****.

It's more than just the actual sex.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> It seems....
> 
> Men and women live more for green cash than for warm ass.
> 
> ...


People let fear rule them and for it, sacrifice living a life connected to a real partner.

There are some of us here on TAM who left bad long term marriages under some pretty dire financial and medical circumstances. I'm one of them. It can be done. People who don't, are definitely choosing what's most important to them in life.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> It's more than just the sex. It's the connection that goes with it. Some men, even older men, want a love connection, a mate, not just a cold FRIEND and ROOMMATE of a wife.
> 
> It's more than just the sex.
> 
> ...


Of course it is..

I am being over simplistic, maybe being a tad obnoxious.

Yes, that. 

Thanks for furthering this, my gist. 

The true meaning of good companionship does include, having close intimacy. 

Keep in mind, close intimacy starts with joining minds and later in joining loins.
Getting into, inside each others minds and inside each others bodies.

Being, loving as one. If only for a moment, a moment that is relived in warm memories.

I think with my mind, forget thought in joining, with each, our nethers.
Tis' bliss, Miss.





[THM]- The Typist I


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> People let fear rule them and for it, sacrifice living a life connected to a real partner.
> 
> There are some of us here on TAM who left bad long term marriages under some pretty dire financial and medical circumstances. I'm one of them. It can be done. *People who don't, are definitely choosing what's most important to them in life.*


Ain't that the truth.

I repeat.

It takes energy.
It takes will power.
It takes a good amount of suffering for most to bail. A little suffering may not 'quite' do it. 

Having a partner, sufficient enough to dislike, not sufficient enough to detach from...totally, as in divorce. 

*****This comes to mind.******

"Not good enough to love, not bad enough to divorce".


Yes, we make our own bed and sleep in it. 

We sleep with an unpleasant bear, their claws ever felt scratching our hide, our pride.
We sleep, not touching, hearing the other snore.
We sleep alone.
We sleep, barely slumber, always sleep with the loneliness, felt.

I am so glad that you were willful enough, brave enough to 'escape' your lonely painful 'before' life.
May the intimate gods caress you 'happily' to sleep every night.





[THM]- The Typist I


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## frankd (Feb 22, 2012)

I forgot to mention we've been married 29 years, her first, my second. 
I have 2 from my first marriage, married with a total of 5 kids, and we have one together, not married, in college.

Why have I put up with this for so long?
It's simply this: I loved her. I loved her more than I could ever describe. Her emotional distance was unsettling and confusing.
I came up with a new term for my position: "romantic optimist". That is to say, I must be missing something, if only I look a little deeper, try a little harder, etc., etc., after all, love conquers all. Right?
No, it does not. Optimism is just another 4-letter word spelled "f-o-o-l".

This is not about sex, per se.
I never begged for her affections or her sexual favors because I feel it brings both people down. Love does not involve begging. My view is that love is based on giving.
I did my best to clear all the roadblocks, but that didn't work. Being nice was easy, because I'm a nice guy. I didn't have to remember to tell her I loved her, it came naturally. A touch, a kiss, a squeeze - all meant to display my affection on a continuous basis without coercion or prompting and certainly, with no ulterior motive. Imagine my dismay when in a fit of anger she accused me of doing all those things because I "expected" it to lead to sex. So every nice thing I've ever done is completely debased and rendered worthless because she attaches it to that dirty ugly monster - SEX.

I know I may be coming across like I'm dumping on her, or making her look bad, but please believe me, although I may or may not be succeeding, I am trying to state the facts and not be judgmental.

I hear what everyone is saying and it makes me feel even worse because you are correct.
I am a strong, confident, well educated and well traveled individual who does know better.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out how I got here and what now?
No, I'm not afraid of divorce, I went to see a lawyer, and told her so. She berated me and said I was a jerk, it's only because of her that we have what we have ( it isn't just her, obviously, everything we did we did together).
And yes, I know, it total and complete verbal abuse.

So, to answer the question, why am I still here? I've lost my will to live and I just don't give a sh*t about anything.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

Frankd, you may be a Christian. If so, there is nothing in Christian theology that requires you to be held in sexual bondage. You are a prisoner of your own making, in the sense that you have allowed this. Let her know, unequivocally, what your concerns are. And if she doesn't like it, too damn bad! Get legal advice and serve her with D papers. 
Something else. Some time ago I read a about a similar case as yours. The W had carried on an affair for years and H knew nothing of it.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

frankd said:


> I forgot to mention we've been married 29 years, her first, my second.
> 
> I have 2 from my first marriage, married with a total of 5 kids, and we have one together, not married, in college.
> 
> ...


Her response to you is a perfect summary on her feelings for you.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

So do you have any idea who _she_ has been having sex with for the last two decades?


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Your wife treats you so badly you've ceased wanting to live. Common dude. Find the will to make your life better. You can either sit there, and continue wasting away miserable. Or you can pick yourself up, and make your circumstances better - one day at a time.

Would it make you feel better about yourself, and your life if you started exercising? If so, start doing it every day. Would it make you feel better if your room was clean? If so, clean it. Would it make you feel better if you... you get the idea. Start doing small things that make your circumstances better.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> Frankd, you may be a Christian. If so, there is nothing in Christian theology that requires you to be held in sexual bondage. You are a prisoner of your own making, in the sense that you have allowed this. Let her know, unequivocally, what your concerns are. And if she doesn't like it, too damn bad! Get legal advice and serve her with D papers.
> Something else. Some time ago I read a about a similar case as yours. The W had carried on an affair for years and H knew nothing of it.


So. Much. This.

She is in sexual sin - a violation of I Corinthians 7


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## frankd (Feb 22, 2012)

The reason I said that I have lost my will to live or to move on is not because I'm trying to be dramatic.
It's because I'm locked into a corner and see no way out. 
- I'm 65 years old, so who am I kidding? Who's going to want me?
- I don't dare bring up these sorts of things with her because she'll blow up and ice me out for up to 10 days (I say this from experience)
- I've completely repressed any sexual desire. I saw her getting into the shower yesterday, and - nothing. There was a time when the smell of her breath or the curve of her lips would send me into spasms.

I could go on, but why bother.
You've all been helpful, really, I mean that, but I don't know.
I'm sorry to have wasted your time.


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## SecondWind (May 10, 2019)

You could divorce her. Then see if other women want to date you. Play the "we can be friends" game with your wife while you wait and see if she decides she wants to be sexual with you again after you aren't living under the same roof.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

frankd said:


> Here's what happened this morning:
> We're lounging in the family room, she's reading the paper drinking her tea on the couch and I'm in the easy chair reading the paper drinking my coffee.
> She gets up and says, "this is how Saturday's are supposed to be- my body's broken from a long week at work and now I can just veg and recover."
> That's kind of funny, so I respond, "how about we go back upstairs and we can give each other back rubs to ease the pain and then perhaps continue rubbing until, you know, we both feel better", wink, wink.
> ...


Should had done something 18 years ago. 

I do know how you feel. My wife knows exactly how I feel about it. Told her she could leave anytime she wants to that I was done trying. This went down few years ago, she has been trying her best to show she wants the marriage. I just can’t get the feelings back for her.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

frankd said:


> The reason I said that I have lost my will to live or to move on is not because I'm trying to be dramatic.
> It's because I'm locked into a corner and see no way out.
> - I'm 65 years old, so who am I kidding? Who's going to want me?
> - I don't dare bring up these sorts of things with her because she'll blow up and ice me out for up to 10 days (I say this from experience)
> ...


Not a waste of time if it has helped you blow off steam.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

frankd said:


> Why have I put up with this for so long?
> It's simply this: I loved her. I loved her more than I could ever describe. Her emotional distance was unsettling and confusing.
> I came up with a new term for my position: "romantic optimist". That is to say, I must be missing something, if only I look a little deeper, try a little harder, etc., etc., after all, love conquers all. Right?
> No, it does not. Optimism is just another 4-letter word spelled "f-o-o-l".
> ...


You do have a choice. Stop kissing her ass and go your own way. Do what you want when you want and leave her on her own.

However, your MR Nice Guy maybe to ingrained by now but you'll never know unless you try.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

frankd said:


> So, to answer the question, why am I still here? I've lost my will to live and I just don't give a sh*t about anything.


Which tells me that you have decided the pain of staying does not exceed the pain of leaving. 

Too bad. I was in a marriage that was similar to yours in many ways. I decided to cut my losses. I live alone with a cat. But ya know what? I don't have to hassle with a negative partner who doesn't meet any of my emotional or physical needs. It's so refreshing to go into the kitchen, open the fridge, and eat what I please when I please. I don't share the TV remote, I don't share the bathroom, I don't share the bed.

I can't even begin to describe how wonderful it is to live in my own space by my own rules. People are always screaming about fear of being alone, feeling lonely, not knowing that the future holds. To hell with that! I'm not lonely. I look forward to every single day because it's MY DAY and MY LIFE to own. Nobody else's.

I think you'd be amazed at how your mood would improve and you'd feel like engaging in life again if you got out of this stagnant/dead-end marriage


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## hptessla (Jun 4, 2019)

frankd said:


> The reason I said that I have lost my will to live or to move on is not because I'm trying to be dramatic.
> It's because I'm locked into a corner and see no way out.
> - I'm 65 years old, so who am I kidding? Who's going to want me?
> - I don't dare bring up these sorts of things with her because she'll blow up and ice me out for up to 10 days (I say this from experience)
> ...


You didn't waste my time. I read with fascination a story similar to my own (though I'm only into year 5 of a sexless marriage).

Sex is a portion of life. Not a big part of it actually. It becomes big as we focus on it more and more or do things to incite desire for it.
Surely you must be enjoying things in some part of life with her? Imagine if she enjoys nothing with you...what a miserable life she must lead, and for what? Somewhere she is getting something out of it. Maybe it's you doing things for her; maybe she could replace that overnight, hiring someone or dating someone. Right now you have a symbiotic relationship. You want more in one area that she wants none of. Not ideal by any means.

So tell me, what do you enjoy with life with her?

Does she enjoy anything with life with you? My wife seems to enjoy life with me when I am non-argumentive, don't pester her about sex and simply let her self indulge. And she does, self indulge. It's a sad addiction, food, stuff, laying around playing mindless apps on her computer. She seems to enjoy work most of all. It almost sounds like there is a commonality among women of desire for a life of ease, of not being bothered except when they decide to be. A life completely self absorbed and self centered. I personally think they have largely been sold this complete package. I personally think it's sad.

Now, compare your overall life with her and the entirety of feelings life with her engenders in you against the life you see her having. I prefer depth to shallow. My biggest concern with my wife is growing to become the shallow emptiness of her life and what it is robbing her of. We can't change them but we can watch, listen and work to ease their misery...and it is a misery; and if that is our goal (as opposed to sex with them) our lives become enriched in the same way that children enrich it. When I was single, into my 40's, I would listen to my friends go on *****ing about their kids and the stress only to have the poor souls seemingly mitigate the guilt that induced by a final sentence along the lines of 'but I love them' or 'but they are the best thing that ever happened to me'. In my all knowing singleness I chalked those statements up to guilt...then I had kids and I had stress and anger but I understood, somewhere there's a book a guy wrote about raising his kids called All Joy, No Fun. A messed up wife is a kid. Women like to equate men with children, in my opinion most women today are very like spoiled children. But when they are our child we love them regardless and we hope they turn out OK and we care for them.

I will no sooner abandon my wife than I will my children. Neither of them will thank me nor will either of them realize what I bring to their lives or what they bring to mine.
Live outside yourself. You didn't plan to have to do that with your wife, but that's how it's turned out. You're a man. Men endure.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

I don't know, Frankd, maybe you just like being miserable. I've seen it before: I can't do ...because she'll do..: or
I won't because I'll never...; It's past the time, and I love... Well, you get the picture. This women DOES NOT love you, and most likely has no respect for you either. Check around here on TAM, and you'll find other guys who like being doormats.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

We get the life we choose/ tolerate


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

hptessla said:


> You didn't waste my time. I read with fascination a story similar to my own (though I'm only into year 5 of a sexless marriage).
> 
> Sex is a portion of life. Not a big part of it actually. It becomes big as we focus on it more and more or do things to incite desire for it.
> Surely you must be enjoying things in some part of life with her? Imagine if she enjoys nothing with you...what a miserable life she must lead, and for what? Somewhere she is getting something out of it. Maybe it's you doing things for her; maybe she could replace that overnight, hiring someone or dating someone. Right now you have a symbiotic relationship. You want more in one area that she wants none of. Not ideal by any means.
> ...


Wow, you're quite the noble martyr.



Wolf1974 said:


> We get the life we choose/ tolerate


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

...the coward knave we pass him by..A man's a man for a'that.."


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## rocltop (Jun 3, 2019)

A friend of mine is about your age married 43yrs . Mrs was a very miserable so and so and very abusive kids all gone he finally had enough. 6mths ago they divorce 4mths ago he moved in his gf .
He;s just a different man , his anxieties completely gone, he's relaxed, happy , chatty , l never really knew this him , only the other him. l really can not believe the difference, or how fast it all happened after all those years.

Unfortunately you love your wife so l don't really know but it sounds like a waste of time trying for any affection or physical though , doubt it's gonna ever change nowm can ya live without it ?
See he'd lost all love for his long ago , so it's probably not much help, suppose that's how he did all this so fast , the old checked out thing.


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## Talk2Me (Mar 22, 2019)

Wow, I cannot imagine my life being intimacy free. I'm 43 and I can't imagine in 2 years not having sex for 20 years. I would be gone immediately. Not doing that again. You two are roommates at best


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Frankd,

Was your W involved with someone else at the time she turned off to you, emotionally or physically?

There was a poster here who went for a long time without sex assuming it was some sort of medical condition or such. Only to find out she had cheated on him and then shut herself off to him. 

It happens, particularly when a W was never really attracted to the H, but married him for utility or convenience. She has an affair with her plan A which makes her H not just plan B but repulsive to her.


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## skerzoid (Feb 7, 2017)

"So, to answer the question, why am I still here? I've lost my will to live and I just don't give a sh*t about anything."

"I could go on, but why bother.
You've all been helpful, really, I mean that, but I don't know.
I'm sorry to have wasted your time."

frankd 

You came here with a real problem. You are married to a bully. But your answer to advice that you don't like is to quit. She will stay a bully. You will take no action because she is mean to you. 

The only way to cause her to change is to take REAL ACTION! Not to make little hints, wink, wink.

Have her served for alienation of affection. Follow through. Women are attracted to courage not surrender. Don't put up with her disrespectful name calling. 

There are plenty of women your age looking for mates, so don't use that as an excuse. You have another 15 or 20 years that you could spend with someone else. 

She doesn't deserve a companion. She should get some cats.

If you choose to stay a doormat and suffer her abuse, that is your fault, not hers.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Have you had a serious conversation with your wife over sex? Don't listen to her "you're a pervert" blameshifting attempts. Sex is natural, and you need it. She also needs to know that you won't tolerate her just "giving in" and laying there like a limp blanket while you get your rocks off. Don't expect her to act like a porn star, but she at least needs to find the woman she was when you got married and enjoyed sex together.

If she knows you will be pursuing divorce if she doesn't get happy to have sex with you, I bet she will find desire for you pretty quickly.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mr.Married said:


> Anything that you can not say NO to .... you are the slave of.
> 
> The hardest part of this reality is that you need to accept that this will not change. You will not turn it around into her "wanting" you.
> 
> ...


Bingo!

OP, sorry you're here, but it's a good place to get great advice. 

Pay attention to what @Mr.Married says here. 

This is the little g gospel you need to take to heart.

Remember, nothing changes if nothing changes.

That old adage is so very true in circumstances like yours. 

Good luck!


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## hptessla (Jun 4, 2019)

Nucking Futs said:


> Wow, you're quite the noble martyr.


Better than allowing someone else to make me bitter and abandon my values and honor. Generations of men have endured and sacrificed, so have generations of women for that matter. As I stated in my reply, I took vows that were not conditional. Look up the word 'vow' in the dictionary, it's different than a simple promise. Look at the historical view of vows.

I took one. If people want to call or think me weak or unmanly, so be it. What anyone else does or thinks with regard to my vow is irrelevant. My short experience with this site has been eye opening. I guess I understand manhood differently than many here.

Is that toxic?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Your wife took vows too. Love and cherish, etc.

You teach people how they are allowed to treat you.

I suspect you hide behind your vows thing so you don't have address the issues.

Those won't get fixed by doing nothing.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

hptessla said:


> Better than allowing someone else to make me bitter and abandon my values and honor. Generations of men have endured and sacrificed, so have generations of women for that matter. As I stated in my reply, I took vows that were not conditional. Look up the word 'vow' in the dictionary, it's different than a simple promise. Look at the historical view of vows.
> 
> I took one. If people want to call or think me weak or unmanly, so be it. What anyone else does or thinks with regard to my vow is irrelevant. My short experience with this site has been eye opening. I guess I understand manhood differently than many here.
> 
> Is that toxic?


So your wife can break those vows but you can't? It can be conditional for your wife but not you?

Franks wife is being so very selfish and cruel. I can't imagine treating my darling husband with such disdain.


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## hptessla (Jun 4, 2019)

frusdil said:


> So your wife can break those vows but you can't? It can be conditional for your wife but not you?
> 
> Franks wife is being so very selfish and cruel. I can't imagine treating my darling husband with such disdain.


I can break my vows. Any time I choose. I told my wife that shortly after finding out about her affair. Any of us can at any time - if we choose to go that road.

I can't imagine treating anyone with such disdain. I couldn't imagine my wife treating me with such disdain early on in the marriage either and I doubt she would have. Somewhere she allowed herself to cross her own boundaries, probably incrementally. Our marriage got bad incrementally too. In my case I know my wife is not happy with actions, she remains unhappy and unsure what she wants. I am in limbo only so far as I choose to be in limbo. Her affair clarified things for me in a way. I previously thought the boundaries from my morals and values were constraints on my ability to 'win' in a situation like this. It was tempting to throw my boundaries away. It would have felt good, in the moment and physically, to start an affair of my own or hook up with someone for a one nighter. It wouldn't have undone anything or solved anything, just complicated it. We have kids, not yet teens so fights and separation/divorce are no good for them. My stability vs her chaos, which is better?

Perhaps, without resorting to 'manning up' via demanding behavior or without separation/divorce, BUT with changes in my behavior and better alignment across the board of my behavior with my values/morals things can change. My parents were very strict. When we had children I didn't want to be so strict and I wasn't. I worried that not being strict wasn't good though. Then in looking at my life and my good and bad decisions I saw a pattern from my childhood.
My mother was always angry and openly strict. There was fear in the obedience to her rules. My father was well aligned between his actions and beliefs. There was no real fear in following him, it was respect. Where my children don't listen to me is in areas where I'm a hypocrite.

So for me the way to regain respect from my wife is to listen to her reasons for the affair that concern me/my behavior...that in no way excuses her actions and I flat told her that the affair is 100% on her and her choices. However, she had valid insight about my behavior so why wouldn't I focus on that which I can change?
It's not giving her a free pass. Only she can give herself a pass. We all have a conscience, why do so many people think that the cheater somehow pulled one over on the non-cheating partner? Who wants to throw away their reputation, self respect, relations with family and friends, etc?
Not me.
Seeing it up close has made me want to go the exact opposite direction. We forget that change is a constant and that what changes one direction can (and in long arcs usually does) change back toward where it started. Marriages are dynamic entities, they change in many small ways, constantly. My wife has to earn my respect again as far as the damage she's done. Obviously I need to regain her respect in certain areas; that means change on both our parts. I don't know if my wife will make the changes she needs to make. I do know that she is unhappy with her life where it is now.

Frank's wife is awful to him and I'm sure he does need to change in ways that will lead his wife to respect him and want to follow so she can respect herself. He doesn't need to change in ways that instill fear in her. He doesn't sound like he will be happy leaving her.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@frankd If your wife's job is that hard on her, is it time she quit?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

You sound like a frog being slowly boiled alive. It feels like many people end up that way. Anyone who has been divorced after a long road can attest. We end up in a place where we accept how things are that would have sent us running for the hills at the start. We look back and see all the little things that should've told us where we were going to end up, but we didn't know that they were signs! That doesn't help you now though does it! Now you have people telling you what you should've done 20 years ago. Great ****ing help that is, lol.

I think you need to re-evaluate what you want at this stage of your life. 

I'm guessing a part of why you're staying is that you don't want to end up all alone. That's a valid concern I feel. Despite what everyone says, wonderful new partners don't always fall out of trees. What you don't have is passionate love, but do you have some form of companionship? It seems like you were having a lovely morning together filled with companionship and you had a wife who was interested in doing things with you that day.

If you feel like you really are that frog, then have you considered the opportunities that await you as a single person? Maybe you can fill that void with other things? People can have wonderful lives without a significant other. Maybe there are things you've always wanted to do that you gave up on.

Just imagine single life. Your own place, your own space. No one freezing you out if you say something wrong. The option to do whatever you want. Is it really so terrifying?

The thing is, you're not stuck. You can choose to stay, or choose to leave, but you really do have that choice. If you stay, look for other ways to fill that void. All through history you see instances where people have redirected their passion into something other than another person! If you choose to leave, again, you can find meaning and purpose in life if that's what you want.

Edited to add: I also think you should talk to someone about how you're feeling. Go to your doctor and get a referral maybe? You sound so depressed. Makes me wish I could give you a hug.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

hptessla said:


> It's not giving her a free pass.


Yes, it is... she's done a fantastic job. Congrats to your wife! I think she deserves one for being so smart...


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