# kids: how much stuff is too much?



## anotherguy

Basketball. Soccer. Swimming lessons. Scouts. Softball. Gymnastics. Music lessons. Then of course school and homework taking up time too. Play dates.

My wife is all for doing everything. To some degree - its great because quite frankly if it were up to me they wouldnt get half of it. 

We do ask them if they want to do each of the things they do, and they seem happy and interested to continue most or all of it. 

I worry however that both of them are getting way too much structured time - going from thing to thing with very little unstructured free time to just goof off and do whatever. I notice lately when they do have a little bit of free time - they both run for the TV since - well they never get a chance to watch it. Not that I care much about 'missing out' on TV for goodness sake... but its part of the whole picture ...if you follow me.

Do I worry too much? Anyone with 10 year old-ish kids that are on a treadmill of activity?

I think about when I was a kid growing up and I bet I had 90% unstructured time, and I see my kids with probably 90% structured time... its so different I just wonder if its a good thing. I guess nothing is good in excess - iincluding free time. I tell my wife that if they dont get any real play/exploration time - they are not going to know how to entertain themselves when the DO have free time.


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## Mavash.

Not a fan of doing 'everything'. My kids each do 1-2 activities at a time and they have plenty of down time that doesn't include electronics. My son is a bit of a computer nerd but my girls prefer to play. 

There is a whole gang of kids that hang out in my neighborhood. They ride bikes, play games, draw, swim (we have a pool), jump on the trampoline, have secret hideouts, you know kid stuff. 

I want them to learn how to be 'bored'. Its when they are bored that they come up with the coolest things to do. My kids ages are 8-13.


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## anotherguy

yeah.. part of the problem is that the houses are far apart where we live.. there arent many kids in the area so its awesome to get them into team sports etc.

The road we live on has no sidewalks and its a curvey, narrow road through some woods and its not a 'slow' road so they cant take their bikes on it. They also dont have friends houses they can walk to really.

Yeah - and we try to keep a little control on how often they are glued to the games on the ipod(s). We wouldnt have got them but the older one won a iPod touch in a 1st grade 'raffle' of some kind and that sort of made the decision for us.


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## committed4ever

Mavash. said:


> Not a fan of doing 'everything'. My kids each do 1-2 activities at a time and they have plenty of down time that doesn't include electronics. My son is a bit of a computer nerd but my girls prefer to play.
> 
> There is a whole gang of kids that hang out in my neighborhood. They ride bikes, play games, draw, swim (we have a pool), jump on the trampoline, have secret hideouts, you know kid stuff.
> 
> I want them to learn how to be 'bored'. Its when they are bored that they come up with the coolest things to do. My kids ages are 8-13.


Mavash your neighborhood sound wonderful! I hope our new neighorhood turn out to be like that.

Are you the "neighborhood Mom" since you are home all day or are most of the wife home?


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## justonelife

My 6 and 9 year old boys each have 1 "activity" at a time outside of school. That's plenty for us and I agree that they need some down time to just play.


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## Mavash.

committed4ever said:


> Mavash your neighborhood sound wonderful! I hope our new neighorhood turn out to be like that.
> 
> Are you the "neighborhood Mom" since you are home all day or are most of the wife home?


Yes I'm the neighborhood mom. Everyone else works. 

The kids all hang out here as if it were their 2nd home. I have the cool house with the pool, the toys and I feed them.


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## anotherguy

Mavash. said:


> Yes I'm the neighborhood mom. Everyone else works.
> 
> The kids all hang out here as if it were their 2nd home. I have the cool house with the pool, the toys and I feed them.


We had a pool growing up. 3 Boys.

We used to bring our friends over - and, Im not kidding - there was almost no bottom to how much food 3 boys (and their friends) can consume in between playing hoops and swimming and sun and whatever. Yikes!


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## Giro flee

We've got four kids. They are each allowed one sport and one other activity like scouting or an instrument. If there is ever complaining about going, then we discuss dropping it because I'm not going to force a child to play soccer if they don't like it. 

We live in a large neighborhood, but all of the other kids are either at daycare or activities themselves. Our local park is really only used by toddlers and preschoolers, never school aged kids. Free time at home can get pretty boring with just your siblings. Holiday breaks and summer vacation are usually too much free time, bickering usually sets in and I am all ready for them to get out of the house and back to their schedules.


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## southern wife

justonelife said:


> My 6 and 9 year old boys each have 1 "activity" at a time outside of school. That's plenty for us and I agree that they need some down time to just play.


My one and only 2nd grader is taking dance, 1 night a week. Other than that, it's school, homework, and playing with her friends....or by herself (computer, TV, making bracelets, etc.) when her friends are busy.


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## committed4ever

I wonder about this too. My 2 sisters are on opposite side of the fence. Oldest sister is super Mom works from home and have the kids in everything. Their public school is not the greatest so she try to supplement by putting them in extra curricular activities. Middle sister works full time, and she and her husband very active in church and prefer to have their kids bond with other church kids with like-minded parents through church activities rather than be involve in a lot of extra curricular activity. This includes sleepover and other unstructured activty.

Both of their kids are always on honor roll, the oldest one in all the extra curricular graduate this year and have done very well on SAT.


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## Hope1964

I raised three kids and was a single mom for part of that, and I would have gone nuts if my kids had been in more than one structured thing each at a time. 

I liked to have them all 3 in things at the same time too. So, for example, swimming lessons - I planned it so they had classes at the same time or as close together as possible so it was only one trip to the pool and not three. I did swimming in the winter, since spring was usually baseball and summer was daycamps.


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## anotherguy

committed4ever said:


> I wonder about this too. My 2 sisters are on opposite side of the fence. Oldest sister is super Mom works from home and have the kids in everything. Their public school is not the greatest so she try to supplement by putting them in extra curricular activities. Middle sister works full time, and she and her husband very active in church and prefer to have their kids bond with other church kids with like-minded parents through church activities rather than be involve in a lot of extra curricular activity. This includes sleepover and other unstructured activty.
> 
> Both of their kids are always on honor roll, the oldest one in all the extra curricular graduate this year and have done very well on SAT.


yeah, ours do very well. Its a little creepy. Oldest missed 1 question ( 1! ) on the first standardized test (4th grade), and the next one looks to be the same... But I am very sensitive to driving them too hard as I probably made clear but so far they both seem fine. We dont 'push them' to do anything...besides homework.

I think I want to continue to try and give them some extra time. I still feel like its important that they find their 'own way' - I dont know how else to say it or what that even means.


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## anotherguy

Hope1964 said:


> I raised three kids and was a single mom for part of that, and I would have gone nuts if my kids had been in more than one structured thing each at a time.
> 
> I liked to have them all 3 in things at the same time too. So, for example, swimming lessons - I planned it so they had classes at the same time or as close together as possible so it was only one trip to the pool and not three. I did swimming in the winter, since spring was usually baseball and summer was daycamps.


honest Hope - I dont know how single parents do it. I simply dont. The fact that you survived it so far is no small feat. Kudos to you!! :smthumbup: :smthumbup:


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## GTdad

I'd love to be able to post a more substantial reply, but I have to stop at the store before I go home, and have three of our kids at gymnastics by 6:30, while my wife takes a daughter to dance.


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## anotherguy

GTdad said:


> I'd love to be able to post a more substantial reply, but I have to stop at the store before I go home, and have three of our kids at gymnastics by 6:30, while my wife takes a daughter to dance.


welcome to the jungle.


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## Anon Pink

My oldest liked structured activities and liked being around people within the confines of the structured activity. Other than that, she was a one on one friend and didn't do well in groups. My middle daughter, burns the candle at both ends and in the middle, thrives on being busy and LOVES being around people. My youngest...most different of them all, HATES structured activity, and at 14 is FINALLY enjoying after school clubs and activities. She is social but she likes her time alone to draw, read and yes lots of TV. Interestingly, she watches the usually crap but also science and history programs. 

So, every child is different and they will let you know when enough is enough, as long as you are listening.

I also had a firm rule: no extra circulars during winter term. Only my middle fought that and begged for basketball. But the following year she decided to go back to "winter nap"


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## anotherguy

Anon Pink said:


> I also had a firm rule: no extra circulars during winter term. Only my middle fought that and begged for basketball. But the following year she decided to go back to "winter nap"


huh.. interesting. Why winter? Just the time you picked to ramp it back a bit?


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## Anon Pink

It started because I needed to focus on the upcoming holidays but when I noticed how they seemed less agitated, more focused on school and family time, I realized how good it was. Wish I could take credit for being such a forward thinker though.


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## OhGeesh

anotherguy said:


> Basketball. Soccer. Swimming lessons. Scouts. Softball. Gymnastics. Music lessons. Then of course school and homework taking up time too. Play dates.
> 
> My wife is all for doing everything. To some degree - its great because quite frankly if it were up to me they wouldnt get half of it.
> 
> We do ask them if they want to do each of the things they do, and they seem happy and interested to continue most or all of it.
> 
> I worry however that both of them are getting way too much structured time - going from thing to thing with very little unstructured free time to just goof off and do whatever. I notice lately when they do have a little bit of free time - they both run for the TV since - well they never get a chance to watch it. Not that I care much about 'missing out' on TV for goodness sake... but its part of the whole picture ...if you follow me.
> 
> Do I worry too much? Anyone with 10 year old-ish kids that are on a treadmill of activity?
> 
> I think about when I was a kid growing up and I bet I had 90% unstructured time, and I see my kids with probably 90% structured time... its so different I just wonder if its a good thing. I guess nothing is good in excess - iincluding free time. I tell my wife that if they dont get any real play/exploration time - they are not going to know how to entertain themselves when the DO have free time.


Ask them honestly what they really WANT to do? Most kids that are in 4-5 different things have parents that knowingly or not push their kids for excellence. Almost living vicariously through them and their successors and failures.

I have a daughter who is athletic always in top 3-4 kids on any sports she has played, if not the best. It is when she played softball, soccer, volleyball, Taekwondo, Gymanstics, and competitive tumbling all while maintaining a 3.75gpa that I started to see her armor crack a little. She said she was okay, but she wasn't as happy she seemed stressed almost.

We really sat down and talked alot over the course of two weeks. Turns out she wasn't a big softball fan, nor Taekwondo, nor gymnastics, but she felt like her mom and I liked her doing those things and she wanted to make us proud. She felt like we would be disappointed if she said she wanted to stop or quit. She said "You and mom say things like" "You are so good great job, you might place 1st next time, coach said you did great!" She felt pressure even if we didn't fully see it.

Now she does Volleyball, Cheerleader, Competitive cheer squad, and loves it.

It's hard not to want your kids to be the best they can be, but there happiness is key. I've been guilty of pushing my kids even if it was without saying a word other that "Great job!" they could feel that expectation.

Not saying you or your wife are doing any of this it's really just food for thought.

Ethics/Family 1st
Grades/School 2nd
Sports/Activites 3rd

For us at least.


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## turnera

Of course they'll say they want to do it all. What kid wants to be left to his own imagination any more? Psychologically speaking, we are doing them a disservice by filling their time.

DD23 got 30 minutes a day on electronics during the week and one hour a day on weekends, before high school. She got two 'outside' activities, if she wanted them. Aside from that, she was free to read, draw, color, do jigsaw puzzles, spend time outside, basically be a normal kid.

I remember her having a bunch of kids over on New Years Eve in 9th grade, and they were being too loud around all the adults. I told them they had to go outside. DD was used to being sent outside, but her friends were all like huh? what do we do outside? how are we supposed to spend the next couple hours outside? who does THAT?

In the end, they had a BLAST! Most of them had never even been outside at night. They went walking all over the neighborhood together, talking, running through the automatic sprinklers that were on around the lake, picking flowers, talking some more...without a FB app! Who knew?!

Nowadays, DD23's friends come over to our house and pretty much just go outside to the back patio to hang out. They almost never even turn the tv on, let alone movies, video games, or computer.

Bottom line, kids NEED downtime.


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## Bellavista

Interestingly, I have just researched creativity in children and found a number of studies that indicate that kids who are allowed unstructured play and recreational time grow up to be the most creative.

Our 5 kids never did many extra-curricula activities due to finances. Music lessons for the two girls (boys not interested) and karate for the boys.

Most of the time they were free to play. Compared to some, they probably had too much computer time, however, as two of the boys are going to make a living with computer based design and all of the boys can build and repair computers, it is not so bad.

I think as a parent you just need to make sure that the kids are happy doing the activities they are involved in and it is not the parents trying to force them into being what they want. Every family is different.


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## RandomDude

Can't wait till my daughter grows up really, instead of just playing with girly toys, painting, board games, etc etc. At least she likes lego! I wanted to learn guitar with her but she likes the piano instead -.- *sigh*

I've taken her out to the countryside with me a few times but STBX won't allow horse riding lessons yet while my daughter really wants to. I'm tempted to just train her myself and go "don't tell mummy"


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## turnera

How old is your daughter?


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## Bellavista

RandomDude said:


> Can't wait till my daughter grows up really, instead of just playing with girly toys, painting, board games, etc etc. At least she likes lego! I wanted to learn guitar with her but she likes the piano instead -.- *sigh*
> 
> I've taken her out to the countryside with me a few times but STBX won't allow horse riding lessons yet while my daughter really wants to. I'm tempted to just train her myself and go "don't tell mummy"


Wait until she hits her teens, especially the middle teen years. Then you will probably have a phantom child. These phantom children scuttle out of their bedrooms for food and toileting only. During the school holidays they have been know to turn their entire schedule around so they sleep all day and emerge late at night.

Come to think of it, maybe they are more like vampires than phantoms....


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## RandomDude

Turnera, 4 turning 5. My ancestors and even my immediate family are equestrian people so I don't have a problem with early training for my daughter but STBX does.



> Wait until she hits her teens, especially the middle teen years. Then you will probably have a phantom child. These phantom children scuttle out of their bedrooms for food and toileting only. During the school holidays they have been know to turn their entire schedule around so they sleep all day and emerge late at night.
> 
> Come to think of it, maybe they are more like vampires than phantoms....




That's not going to be much fun, maybe I'll make sure she won't have a computer/TV/console in her room. But then she'll just play on her phone right? Bah! Electronics these days.


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## turnera

RD, here's one thing I've learned about kids. Each year, I thought I had to go out and do this or that with or for my child. I pushed her early to do a lot of stuff, because it was what I wanted. But as she got older, I realized that it was ME who was in such a hurry to do stuff, not her. A six year old has plenty of years to learn to ride a horse. For now, let her be a kid and ride a pony at the fair like all the other kids her age. She'll let you know when she's interested in learning how to ride. And then it will be her idea and she'll want it a lot more than if you just 'give' it to her.


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## RandomDude

She's already interested in riding but mum won't let her and it's one of our agreements that neither of us can approve anything without the consensus of both. So it kinda sucks cause we both want it but STBX won't approve.


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## turnera

Did she give you an age at which she thinks it's appropriate?


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## RandomDude

Not really, she just reckons our daughter's too young and would probably maintain her stance up until adulthood and come up with all sorts of excuses, she's our only child after all and so STBX is worried stiff about safety issues. Told her that my people rode before they could walk and she just went "I don't care!" lol

Oh well


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## Wiltshireman

To some extent I think that we need to let our children guide us as to how they want to spend their time.

Finances and logistics allowing we did / do encourage all of ours (we have 5 from 18 to 3) to become evolved in activities that interest them but there has always been the caveat that it must not adversely impact their school work.

IMHO it is nice if they can each have at least one activity that they do not share with their siblings as in a big family it can be hard to stand out as an individual.

I will admit that there have been times when I wished that there was less running around after them all and a bit more "family time" so to this end we all try and keep Sunday free at least a couple of times a month.


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## turnera

Wiltshireman said:


> To some extent I think that we need to let our children guide us as to how they want to spend their time.


Exactly. I'd tell mine that we're going to think on it for a month. If she still wanted it a month later, I'd sign her up. She often changed her mind.



Wiltshireman said:


> IMHO it is nice if they can each have at least one activity that they do not share with their siblings as in a big family it can be hard to stand out as an individual.
> 
> I will admit that there have been times when I wished that there was less running around after them all and a bit more "family time" so to this end we all try and keep Sunday free at least a couple of times a month.


More great advice. And don't forget sitting at the dinner table, with the tv OFF!

Some of DD23's friends who've come over for dinner have said they couldn't remember the last time they sat at a table to eat all together. One said he had NEVER done that. The dinner table USED to be where children learned a big chunk of their morals and beliefs (watch Blue Bloods to see how).


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## turnera

RandomDude said:


> Not really, she just reckons our daughter's too young and would probably maintain her stance up until adulthood and come up with all sorts of excuses, she's our only child after all and so STBX is worried stiff about safety issues. Told her that my people rode before they could walk and she just went "I don't care!" lol
> 
> Oh well


Then this is a perfect place for you two to reach a compromise. Tell her that you are holding off for now to honor her wishes, but that you WILL be getting her into lessons by the time she is 8; then start negotiating.


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## hambone

Why are the kids in so much stuff?

I wonder, when parents have their kids on the treadmill... Is it so they parents can stand in the reflected glory? Is it a feather in the parents cap?

Or, does mom not want to actually spend her time with the kids so she keeps them in activities.

And the kids SAY the like all this stuff. Maybe the kids just want to please mom... They want to do what ever mom wants them to do... You know, kids want nothing more than to please their parents. 

My wife was always a SAHM. She took them and picked them up from school. After I retired... she dropped them off and I picked them up.

Our home was the gathering place for the neighborhood. We have a full sized refrigerator dedicated to drinks. LOL.. we'd have kids we didn't even know come in the house... walk right past us... get a drink and walk right back past us and never even say hi!! Funny. 

We NEVER... EVER had a weekend that we didn't have at least one extra kid.

I do not believe you can schedule "quality" time with kids. Those quality moments are what happens in the middle of quantity time. 

If those kids are in scheduled activities all the time... is there enough quantity time?


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## turnera

My house was like that, too. 

There was a SuperNanny episode where this couple had 3 kids, I think. The mom carted the kids around to so many things that Jo got dizzy. Chinese class, chess class, dance class, tennis class, computer class...each kid had at least 6 or 7 activities! And they were MISERABLE! And became little monsters. 

Jo made the parents ask their kids to pick two activities apiece, outside the Chinese class (pretty much mandated), that they really wanted to be in. Once that changed, everything was great. Her point...there's plenty of time later for the kids to find other things they want to be involved in. But let THEM find them.


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## mace17

I sometimes wonder if my 2nd grader is in too much stuff, but he seems to enjoy it all. He takes Kung Fu lessons twice a week, and he's also in scouts. During the school year its not too bad but in spring and summer he also has baseball twice a week, usually on the same nights as Kung Fu but different times. It does get a little much, but it's only 2 or 3 months like that.


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## turnera

That's only two activities. That's about right.


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## anotherguy

hambone said:


> Why are the kids in so much stuff?


Because they eat it up. They have limitless energy it seems.



hambone said:


> I wonder, when parents have their kids on the treadmill... Is it so they parents can stand in the reflected glory? Is it a feather in the parents cap?


Excuse me? Im going to do you a favor and let that insulting comment slide without chewing your head off. Of course not, thats silly. 



hambone said:


> Or, does mom not want to actually spend her time with the kids so she keeps them in activities.


Wrong again. Actually mom coaches soccer and helps run the girscout troop.



hambone said:


> And the kids SAY the like all this stuff. Maybe the kids just want to please mom... They want to do what ever mom wants them to do... You know, kids want nothing more than to please their parents.


again - nothing nefarious going on here. You frame all this as some kind of abuse. Beyond insulting. My kids are pretty smart and have no problems expressing exactly how they feel.



hambone said:


> My wife was always a SAHM. She took them and picked them up from school. After I retired... she dropped them off and I picked them up.
> 
> Our home was the gathering place for the neighborhood. We have a full sized refrigerator dedicated to drinks. LOL.. we'd have kids we didn't even know come in the house... walk right past us... get a drink and walk right back past us and never even say hi!! Funny.
> 
> We NEVER... EVER had a weekend that we didn't have at least one extra kid.
> 
> I do not believe you can schedule "quality" time with kids. Those quality moments are what happens in the middle of quantity time.
> 
> If those kids are in scheduled activities all the time... is there enough quantity time?


all that is obvious. Well, except for the 'dedicated' fridge for 'drinks'. Good luck with that.

One thing I can say about 'all the' activities they do is that it has surfaced some things we might not have picked up on. One is playing the piano VERY well. The other is swimming like a fish and cant get enough of it.

Shrug. Please spare me the bad parenting lectures and suggestion of 'reflected glory'. Holy crap that is insulting.


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## Devotee

This is a topic I have struggled with for some time. 

I have two girls- 12 and 9. They have typically over the years only been involved in one activity at a time, usually requiring a one or two day a week commitment. Occasionally it has been 2 activities, but those times were isolated to when activities overlapped. 

I have friends and relatives whose kids have nearly every waking moment scheduled. And that is not an exaggeration. Sometimes I wonder if I am doing my kids a disservice by not pushing them to do more activities. I offer to sign them up for this or that, but they express no interest. 

Part of me is secretly glad though, I have to admit- because I do not envy the parents who are constantly on the run. That's just not me.

It will take this generation to reflect back on their experiences to really know if having so little unscheduled time to "play" was beneficial or not.


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## RandomDude

turnera said:


> Then this is a perfect place for you two to reach a compromise. Tell her that you are holding off for now to honor her wishes, but that you WILL be getting her into lessons by the time she is 8; then start negotiating.


Not so sure how she would take that =/


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## turnera

RD, I'm sure you'll find a tactful, respectful way to say it.  (not my strength, lol)

The best way to approach it is to be on the same team.


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## turnera

Devotee, kids NEED downtime. DD23 has a psychology degree, and they actually devote quite a bit of time on this subject - about kids needing to have downtime, time to imagine, daydream, read, entertain themselves...think!


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## Snickers

Do you think there is anyway they could be saying they like it to not hurt you or your wife's feelings?If you think they really like it I would leave it alone.


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## coffee4me

anotherguy said:


> Basketball. Soccer. Swimming lessons. Scouts. Softball. Gymnastics. Music lessons. Then of course school and homework taking up time too. Play dates.
> 
> Do I worry too much? Anyone with 10 year old-ish kids that are on a treadmill .


Anotherguy, my children are teenagers now. They both had various time consuming activities growing up. Their core sports they stuck with for 5+ years. We still managed to have down time, family time and time for friends. They are both creative and not glued to the TV. They did not exhibit signs that they did not enjoy what they were doing. They are very proud of what they have accomplished. 

What I feel they have gained. The ability to multitask, keep themselves to a schedule and plan ahead. They set goals and adjust the behavior if not meeting their goals. They do have endurance as they sometimes have long days. They handle stress well. They prioritize well. They are confident and ready to try new things. These activities have given them many life skills. 

They choose their activities now my sons school activity requires 25 hours a week of his time. My daughters chosen activities require 12 hours a week. They have friends, they teach themselves how to do things they enjoy. They care about their grades and their performance in their activities. 

I know what is right for my kids is not going to be right for someone else's kids. Not all kids can handle tons of activity but some kids like mine and it sounds like yours too- thrive on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude

turnera said:


> RD, I'm sure you'll find a tactful, respectful way to say it.  (not my strength, lol)
> 
> The best way to approach it is to be on the same team.


Heh I'll try I guess, will just have to convince her that its safe somehow.


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## turnera

RandomDude said:


> Heh I'll try I guess, will just have to convince her that its safe somehow.


 Well, that's easy. Just Google the proper age to start horse riding, and show it to her.


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## RandomDude

I did  Shes not convinced

Hell she didn't even like it when I go on my own riding trips, especially when I ride to areas with no reception and she gets all worried sick I would fall and break my neck or something. When it comes to her daughter even more so. Oh well


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## turnera

You're her parent, too. 

Why does your wife get all the say?

Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy?


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## RandomDude

She doesn't, we simply both have to agree when it comes to our daughter, we're actually a team in this. She never took my daughter to church without my consent for example and never forced the issue.


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## hambone

anotherguy said:


> Because they eat it up. They have limitless energy it seems.
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse me? Im going to do you a favor and let that insulting comment slide without chewing your head off. Of course not, thats silly.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again. Actually mom coaches soccer and helps run the girscout troop.
> 
> 
> 
> again - nothing nefarious going on here. You frame all this as some kind of abuse. Beyond insulting. My kids are pretty smart and have no problems expressing exactly how they feel.
> 
> 
> 
> all that is obvious. Well, except for the 'dedicated' fridge for 'drinks'. Good luck with that.
> 
> One thing I can say about 'all the' activities they do is that it has surfaced some things we might not have picked up on. One is playing the piano VERY well. The other is swimming like a fish and cant get enough of it.
> 
> Shrug. Please spare me the bad parenting lectures and suggestion of 'reflected glory'. Holy crap that is insulting.


Looks like I touched a raw nerve. Sorry about that. 

If I had called you a "little green Martian" would you have gotten upset?


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## hambone

sorry duplicate post.


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