# Correct me if I am wrong



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

But it seems as though the ratio of posts are about equal of the men wanting to save their marriages to those of women looking for approval to leave their marriages. Anyone else notice this? Or am I just biased as a guy?
It also seems that within each sex the ratio is about 2:1 in favor of the above vs the opposite.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Doesn't really matter unless you're one of those guys.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

I agree, lot of threads lately like this. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Yes, I think in a lot of cases men are in denial about how unhappy the wife is until its too late. She has expressed her unhappiness. When the wife leaves then they wake up and want to work on the marriage but by then its too late. Most women don't want to break up their family and hang in there until until they can't stay any longer.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Ynot said:


> But it seems as though the ratio of posts are about equal of the men wanting to save their marriages to those of women looking for approval to leave their marriages. Anyone else notice this? Or am I just biased as a guy?
> It also seems that within each sex the ratio is about 2:1 in favor of the above vs the opposite.


It is a statistical reality that men are almost always caught off guard by their wives wanting out. Their wives came to that conclusion at least a year in the past, making it extremely difficult to turn around. Wives tend to do the dumping.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Relationship Teacher said:


> It is a statistical reality that men are almost always caught off guard by their wives wanting out. Their wives came to that conclusion at least a year in the past, making it extremely difficult to turn around. Wives tend to do the dumping.


Unless the husband has an affair and wants to leave to be with that person, then they usually leave quickly.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Happilymarried25 said:


> Unless the husband has an affair and wants to leave to be with that person, then they usually leave quickly.


That's true, although only 2% of affairs result in marriages. Add that to the fact that a subsequent marriage has about a 60% chance of failure.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Mclane said:


> Doesn't really matter unless you're one of those guys.


Very profound. You are such a deep thinker.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Relationship Teacher said:


> It is a statistical reality that men are almost always caught off guard by their wives wanting out. Their wives came to that conclusion at least a year in the past, making it extremely difficult to turn around. Wives tend to do the dumping.


For those women who don't want to nag or cause fights... they can be more *subtle* in trying to get their needs/ wants met in a relationship , often expecting the man to "get it"... and when he doesn't .... the resentment starts to build.. they eventually start to detach in smaller ways that he may not even notice... then they find themselves, after months , years of this... to be "DONE"...

I see this happen with our son (months before the break up).....I went to him & warned him point blank.. she was a more subtle type girl.. not going to start World war 3 with him... or cause fights.. I warned him exactly what was going to happen.. that one day she was going to be DONE with him... and I was right on...sorry to say... I could see he was neglecting the relationship... 

What did he do..he got defensive with me... then when she officially severed it.. THEN he wanted to make it all up to her , bend over backwards to get her back.. he was now the one in pain.. but she was for a long time before she left him (from her own words to me).. she felt she cared more.. she did more.. that sort of thing.. 

I guess men need to pay more attention to the "subtle"... don't take your women for granted.. same thing with us women though too.. of course.. It can go both ways.. gotta be intuned to the personality of the person you are with and how they express their needs.. more subtle or they come right out with it.. sitting you down and wanting to work through issues.. 

I am not subtle.. I will cause conflict.. but ya know.. there are perks to that .. nothing would be a blind side with me.... My husband, however, is more subtle.. so in this way..I better be paying attention to his needs / wants... or he may start to harbor resentment towards me (it's happened in the past).... often opposites attract ...


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I think it's just a function of it being a lot easier for a woman to leave than for a man to leave. Why would a man want to leave a marriage broke and hand over to his wife what he spent his life building?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> For those women who don't want to nag or cause fights... they can be more *subtle* in trying to get their needs/ wants met in a relationship , often expecting the man to "get it"... and when he doesn't .... the resentment starts to build.. they eventually start to detach in smaller ways that he may not even notice... then they find themselves, after months , years of this... to be "DONE"...


Well said!

The problem is with the subtle. Often the husband goes not "get it" because the message is NOT communicated properly. For a long time my W complained that I spend too much time on the phone/computer. But she was on hers *much more* than me, and so that was my rebuttal. I took the 5LL and found out her main love is Quality Time. So I then asked her point blank: "When you told me I spend too much time on the computer, did you really mean I do not spend enough time with you?" To which she answered, "Yes."  Why not just say that??

So, if she would have just told me that 2-3 years ago, I would have gotten the message. The H should not be blamed for not getting the "subtle" message, but once the W checks out the marriage is over. 

It comes down to lack of communication in the marriage and BOTH are at fault often.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

What I think I have observed is a difference of attitude and approach to marriage, especially now that women are not bound by practical (money) reasons to remain married. Men see marriage as a binary state, on or off. If on, it just stays on. The idea of listening, nurturing and the like is kind of foreign. They may appease in order to get some, but that is the extent of what they see as being married. Show up with a paycheck and kiss her ass so you get laid.

Women want emotional connection, friendship, playtime, involvement. Just saying "I do" then phoning it in for the rest of one's life is no longer something they have to decide to live with.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Interesting, once again we see the split.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

It does seem most threads are men begging for their wife not to leave them or she already left him and he wants to get her and his family back. It's pretty sad.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Women want emotional connection, friendship, playtime, involvement. Just saying "I do" then phoning it in for the rest of one's life is no longer something they have to decide to live with.


This is it, right here. :iagree:

Men tend think its ok to just exist within the marriage and the home. As long as their day to day remains the same, they seem to be content. The wife expressing unhappiness opens the door to having to make changes, and its been my experience that men really hate change, so they shove their heads in the sand and continue on as they are. Then the woman gets fed up with needs not being met and wants out...that's when the man panics and rushes headlong into trying to make things work, making changes that (usually) never stick if she decides to stay and try to make it work. 

No, of course this isn't how every marriage plays out, but in the threads/situations relating to Ynot's OP, this is pretty much status quo.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> This is it, right here. :iagree:
> 
> Men tend think its ok to just exist within the marriage and the home. As long as their day to day remains the same, they seem to be content. The wife expressing unhappiness opens the door to having to make changes, and its been my experience that men really hate change, so they shove their heads in the sand and continue on as they are. Then the woman gets fed up with needs not being met and wants out...that's when the man panics and rushes headlong into trying to make things work, making changes that (usually) never stick if she decides to stay and try to make it work.
> 
> No, of course this isn't how every marriage plays out, but in the threads/situations relating to Ynot's OP, this is pretty much status quo.


Yes and the same holds true for men. Actually, though, I doubt that most men think it is OK to exist within the marriage and the home. And as we have seen the wife "expressing" "unhappiness", is not always understood by all, especially the intended recipient. But it seems that the man is always to blame for not getting the message, even though the message may not have been "sent" in a way that could be understood. As I have said before, it is rather difficult to take a message seriously when the actions do not correspond. 
It seems to be a given around here, that women are the keepers of the relationship, while men are just dogs. only interested in sex and food.


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## ILoveSparkles (Oct 28, 2013)

Relationship Teacher said:


> It is a statistical reality that men are almost always caught off guard by their wives wanting out. Their wives came to that conclusion at least a year in the past, making it extremely difficult to turn around. Wives tend to do the dumping.


Interesting. If it is a statistical reality please show me those stats with verifiable links.

Sorry, but it really bugs me when some posters write about that sort of info and end up not really having anything to prove their statements.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Yes said:


> Interesting. If it is a statistical reality please show me those stats with verifiable links.
> 
> Sorry, but it really bugs me when some posters write about that sort of info and end up not really having anything to prove their statements.


No offense taken.

I'd have to do a bit of digging to find the exact source I was referring to, but I know where to look.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Yes said:


> Interesting. If it is a statistical reality please show me those stats with verifiable links.
> 
> Sorry, but it really bugs me when some posters write about that sort of info and end up not really having anything to prove their statements.


I forget the exact numbers but it is something like 70% of divorces are filed by women. And RT is correct, most men are taken completely by surprised. But as I said, the men are often blamed for not getting the message. That appears to be a given. But seldom are women blamed for not communicating effectively, it is the men who are to blame.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

I'm the one that left my worthless marriage but she filed first and had me served to try to get the upper hand.

I felt trapped for so long, not wanting to give my ex 50% of all that I worked for and continue paying her CS for 15 years. It definitely is easier for the woman to walk away, they know they can find another man to support her and continue getting a check each month from her her ex that wasn't meeting her needs.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Yes said:


> Interesting. If it is a statistical reality please show me those stats with verifiable links.
> 
> Sorry, but it really bugs me when some posters write about that sort of info and end up not really having anything to prove their statements.


I was referring to "Women as Love’s Experts and Love’s Victims" (Tavris, 2000)

But here is a quick and dirty stat to verify 

That link argues along similar lines as Tavris does.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Ynot said:


> I forget the exact numbers but it is something like 70% of divorces are filed by women. And RT is correct, most men are taken completely by surprised. But as I said, the men are often blamed for not getting the message. That appears to be a given. But seldom are women blamed for not *communicating effectively*, it is the men who are to blame.


If I were to walk away today, my husband would be baffled. Despite

- bullet-ed lists
- multiple conversation
- email messages
- family charts

I wonder what "communicate effectively" looks like? It often seems to me, communicate things I want to hear. Otherwise I will ignore you.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> If I were to walk away today, my husband would be baffled. Despite
> 
> - bullet-ed lists
> - multiple conversation
> ...


This is a good point. I also wrote things down, we talk several nights a week, I have hundreds of emails, I haven't drawn a picture yet, but I swear I'm not above doing that either. 


Even though I've done all of that - I asked him the other day, "Mr. Staarz, what are the issues in our relationship?" 

His answer? "I don't know, you're not happy?"


Buh.....


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

staarz21 said:


> This is a good point. I also wrote things down, we talk several nights a week, I have hundreds of emails, I haven't drawn a picture yet, but I swear I'm not above doing that either.
> 
> 
> Even though I've done all of that - I asked him the other day, "Mr. Staarz, what are the issues in our relationship?"
> ...


Is it bad that that made me laugh? Humor has its basis in truth.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> If I were to walk away today, my husband would be baffled. Despite
> 
> - bullet-ed lists
> - multiple conversation
> ...


If your husband were baffled then that is HIS fault, not that of all men.
I get tired of hearing men blamed constantly. I can tell you that I tried to discuss things with my ex and all I ever got was "I am doing the best I can and if you don't like it I am leaving!" Yeah, that sure greases the lines of communications doesn't it? Really made me want to keep trying to discuss issues! Then when she left, she told me and everyone else that "we talked about it, until we were blue in the face!" All I am saying is that women are NOT the keepers of the relationship and men are not stupid animalistic cave men who only desire sex and food and otherwise care nothing about their wives, families or marriages


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Ynot said:


> If your husband were baffled then that is HIS fault, not that of all men.
> I get tired of hearing men blamed constantly. I can tell you that I tried to discuss things with my ex and all I ever got was "I am doing the best I can and if you don't like it I am leaving!" Yeah, that sure greases the lines of communications doesn't it? Really made me want to keep trying to discuss issues! Then when she left, she told me and everyone else that "we talked about it, until we were blue in the face!" All I am saying is that women are NOT the keepers of the relationship and men are not stupid animalistic cave men who only desire sex and food and otherwise care nothing about their wives, families or marriages



Well, in this thread no one has said that. People gave experience opinions, which is kind of the point of the forum. Could SOME women communicate better? Yep. Could SOME men attend to their spouses needs better? Yep. So, what's the point of the thread? You wanted opinions, I'm assuming. You got them. You didn't like them. It wasn't what you wanted to read. The general consensus is that men are surprised when women leave because they didn't listen to their spouse. Is that a fair assessment in general? No, not really. But once you get to talking to someone more - that's when you learn whether or not they communicated effectively in their relationship. 

You don't get the full story from asking one question on a thread. So arguing back and forth isn't really going to do anything, is it? You're still going to believe that women set out to leave men in the dark on purpose because we can't communicate effectively. This has happened before in threads. Typically it goes toward the woman is nagging and since she nags, he quits listening. 

So, it's like a chicken and the egg thing, right?

There are people who don't communicate effectively. There are people who do go into a marriage thinking sex and food is all they need. These people are not scarce. We just have to be wiser in how we choose our partners in the future. 

That's why I'm teaching my boys to date at least 5 years before even considering a long engagement. I will teach them that a piece of paper will not change anything. Hopefully, they will listen.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Is it bad that that made me laugh? Humor has its basis in truth.



No I laughed too - on the inside. It was like one of those crazy people laughs...like you can't believe someone just said something so stupid, laugh.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

I point-blank said at one point "if you do this again, I'm filing for divorce." Then he did it again. We separated and I filed for divorce. Sometimes you communicate something really f-ing clearly, and they just don't want to hear it. He even said "you're not going to file." When I finally did, he was so surprised.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

joannacroc said:


> I point-blank said at one point "if you do this again, I'm filing for divorce." Then he did it again. We separated and I filed for divorce. Sometimes you communicate something really f-ing clearly, and they just don't want to hear it. He even said "you're not going to file." When I finally did, he was so surprised.


If you had threatened divorce in the past, it's no surprise that he didn't take you seriously. The D word tends to be overused in the death throws of a marriage, it's thrown around more and more until someone finally means it.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

jb02157 said:


> I think it's just a function of it being a lot easier for a woman to leave than for a man to leave. Why would a man want to leave a marriage broke and hand over to his wife what he spent his life building?


No one wins in a divorce.

This sort of attitude speaks volumes, when people are married* they build up their estate together, it is not his or hers*. Add to that the fact that more women work outside the home than don't. That women still do the majority of child rearing and housework even if they work outside the home. 

In a divorce both adults lose out financially, they both have a lesser quality of life than before . I doubt it is any different there than in Aus, the most financially disadvantaged group here are single mothers, they are the least likely to afford decent accommodation and they are the most likely to not receive child support owed to help raise their *combined *children.

Everyone I know, men and women, took a big hit financially when they divorced but most get back on track at some point. The longer you live in your miserable life, whinging and whining, the less time you will have to get back on track.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

Mclane said:


> If you had threatened divorce in the past, it's no surprise that he didn't take you seriously. The D word tends to be overused in the death throws of a marriage, it's thrown around more and more until someone finally means it.


I didn't threaten anything or throw it around. I said it once. And I meant it. Apparently he didn't see that.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

joannacroc said:


> I didn't threaten anything or throw it around. I said it once. And I meant it. Apparently he didn't see that.


Apparently not.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Looks like you are hurting today, Ynot. I know the feeling too often. Sometimes, it just doesn't seem fair. 

After reading a few of these posts, I realized, and I don't know why it occurred to me now instead of years ago, that I got at least one list of things she wanted changed. It shocked me. I did intend to work on those things. Guess what? I didn't. I don't even know why I didn't? I think part of it was that I forgot about the list with all of life's other things going on. I think. I really don't remember. It could very well be that I gave up because they were things I could not change, only work on and I felt it was useless. I just don't remember, to tell the honest truth. 

Here's the thing. I think my second ex just convinced herself she wanted something she wasn't ready to have. I think she was hurting from some other relationships and her previous marriage. I think her daughter gave her so much to worry about, she couldn't take any more worry from a new husband. And, believe me, there are things to worry about with a new husband. It's normal. It isn't all peaches and cream, even when you get along well. 

So, I sort of think she just one day realized she did the wrong thing in marrying me. I think she was so deep in denial about her true wants and needs before the wedding, she couldn't believe whatever red flags she saw in me that made us incompatible. 

Hell, I know I missed some red flags. 

I also think she wanted this dream she had in her head, so much, she tried to become the woman she thought I was looking for. I think she gave it an honest try, believing we were right for each other. Maybe we were, but we tried too hard? I don't know.

One thing I do know is she decided I wasn't right for her. I didn't. That means she made the mistake, not me. She showed a woman I wanted. How would I realize that she wasn't who she represented to me? You couldn't either. I was in love with her and that caused me to find things that were compatible. And, there were those things, but they weren't enough for our exes. 

It's okay to have bad days. Take care of yourself. You deserve to have some compassion for yourself. This too shall pass.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

My ex-husband apparently didn't believe me on DD1 when I said if that happened again I would divorce him. DD2 was thirty years after DD1 and maybe he thought I forgot or maybe he forgot. Who knows. But I didn't forget and I divorced him. He was totally shocked. I finally realized that none of the discussions I had with him about our problems during the forty-five years we were married ever made a difference. I don't know why. But regardless of that I would have remained married to him for the rest of our lives if only he had believed me when I said I would divorce him if it happened again.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> Well, in this thread no one has said that. People gave experience opinions, which is kind of the point of the forum. Could SOME women communicate better? Yep. Could SOME men attend to their spouses needs better? Yep. So, what's the point of the thread? You wanted opinions, I'm assuming. You got them. You didn't like them. It wasn't what you wanted to read. The general consensus is that men are surprised when women leave because they didn't listen to their spouse. Is that a fair assessment in general? No, not really. But once you get to talking to someone more - that's when you learn whether or not they communicated effectively in their relationship.
> 
> You don't get the full story from asking one question on a thread. So arguing back and forth isn't really going to do anything, is it? You're still going to believe that women set out to leave men in the dark on purpose because we can't communicate effectively. This has happened before in threads. Typically it goes toward the woman is nagging and since she nags, he quits listening.
> 
> ...


Actually, you and NS did more or less say that. You TOLD him, he didn't listen. - Ultimatum given! I am still waiting to hear about an actual DISCUSSION. You know, a dialogue where both sides offer their side and the other side considers it? Perhaps the itemized bulleted point ultimatum, wasn't the best way to effectively communicate the message? Perhaps the repeated threats to leave (typically in a heated argument often followed by make up sex) was not the best way to convey a message? Perhaps all the items on the highlighted, bulleted memo were a RESULT of the wife's actions? 
You see, I not only get tired of men being constantly blamed, but I get tired of hearing how men are constantly TOLD. As I said, I would love to hear about an actual discussion, where both sides are heard.
Even to suggest a real dialogue, here on TAM is to bring down wrath upon your head up to an including being called a misogynist, angry, hurt or bitter. Women (and men) don't need to TELL, they need to discuss.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Ynot said:


> Actually, you and NS did more or less say that. You TOLD him, he didn't listen. - Ultimatum given! I am still waiting to hear about an actual DISCUSSION. You know, a dialogue where both sides offer their side and the other side considers it? Perhaps the itemized bulleted point ultimatum,


So I did mention the various ways I attempted to discuss this with my husband. We have had discussions. He has agreed with the things I have said. Then fails to act on the things we discuss. I will give you some examples. 

There is a room that was formerly the office. I had some family paperwork in there. When he started his own business, he took it over for his business stuff of which there is a lot of equipment. It is not neat. We were discussing things that need to be done in the home, and I asked if cleaning that room could be a priority. I told him about my hope of finding some misplaced paperwork. He totally agreed. I followed up with an email. Hey, just to reiterate what we decided. I am NOT cleaning up his equipment. If he cannot find it, or if I damage it, he cannot work. And that is big money down the tube. Despite agreeing several weeks ago that this was a priority, there has been no action on it. None. 

We have a wood stove. I wanted the wood stacked neatly next to the garage. I thought it would look nicer. He said, yah no, I am not making that a priority. If you want it stacked, rock on. Stack it. I was like, yah ok that is fair.

On the emotional front, I asked him to spend more time with the family and with me. To this end, I suggested not taking any work engagements on weekends anymore. The former was the goal, the latter was a suggestion to meet that goal. He gets the latter but not the former. He was offered an engagement this weekend on Friday evening. He asked me, like I am his Mom, if this "counts" as working on the weekend. I replied with, all I want is for you to spend time with the family.

There are other examples, many. For ME, the former examples are just par for the course. He has never been good at time management. This is just a part of who he is. And I choose to accept that. I will move his stuff around when looking for my paperwork and accept that that room will never be cleaned up. 

The latter will get fixed. Not this minute, but it will. We have had a tough couple of years, and he is facing some significant issues of his own. He is suffering under some pressure that I will wait to abate. But the truth is, verbal and written communication are useless. If he does not act on the family time, and the me time on his own, I will have to set limits. These limits include curtailing of funds allocation to his recreation in favor of kid and me recreation and the like. 




> wasn't the best way to effectively communicate the message? Perhaps the repeated threats to leave (typically in a heated argument often followed by make up sex)


I, for one, don't do that. And we don't do fight make up sex. We have conversations more than we fight. 



> was not the best way to convey a message? Perhaps all the items on the highlighted, bulleted memo were a RESULT of the wife's actions?
> You see, I not only get tired of men being constantly *blamed*,


So this is interesting. It is actually how my husband thinks. The desire to avoid blame is in direct conflict with the ability to solve problems. I am no perfect creature. I do things that DH hates. When he tells me he hates it, I stop doing it. When I fail, being human as I am, I will tell him, hey I know you want me to do x or stop doing x, and I did it anyway. I will get on that effort.

We hear all the time on this board about how men are the leaders in relationships. In cases where women are trying to get heard and are not being heard, said men are NOT leading in the relationship. Leading in a relationship involves acting, not getting defensive and burying ones head in the sand to avoid blame. Leading involves working through and with the people you are supposedly leading, not doing whatever you want and just expecting the follower to go along.

I CHOOSE to be with my husband because of all the other stuff he brings to the table, foremost humor and fun as well as being a kick ass Dad. I CHOOSE to accept the lack of "hearing" on practical matters because it is within my emotional capability to do so. I CHOOSE to accept the emotional disconnect for the time being because there is a path to its solution. If that latter was a matter of day-in, day-out FACT for the rest of my life with no way to get through, hells no. I would be gone. I can also see why someone would not choose even that.





> but I get tired of hearing how men are constantly TOLD. As I said, I would love to hear about an actual discussion, where both sides are heard.


You can't MAKE someone hear.



> Even to suggest a real dialogue, here on TAM is to bring down wrath upon your head up to an including being called a misogynist, angry, hurt or bitter. Women (and men) don't need to TELL, they need to discuss.


Did my examples clarify at all for you? And for the record, my attitude is not that men are bad, evil people. My husband is actually a great person. He also has his own personality that is not always easily understood by me. He knows that he has a hard time listening to my point of view and not measuring it against what he thinks is objective "right". And he tries. His ability to be semi-successful is limited by his own priorities. And I choose to accept that.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Ynot said:


> If your husband were baffled then that is HIS fault, not that of* all men*.


Of course not. But we see that it is not an uncommon thing.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Ynot said:


> Actually, you and NS did more or less say that. You TOLD him, he didn't listen. - Ultimatum given! I am still waiting to hear about an actual DISCUSSION. You know, a dialogue where both sides offer their side and the other side considers it? Perhaps the itemized bulleted point ultimatum, wasn't the best way to effectively communicate the message? Perhaps the repeated threats to leave (typically in a heated argument often followed by make up sex) was not the best way to convey a message? Perhaps all the items on the highlighted, bulleted memo were a RESULT of the wife's actions?
> You see, I not only get tired of men being constantly blamed, but I get tired of hearing how men are constantly TOLD. As I said, I would love to hear about an actual discussion, where both sides are heard.
> Even to suggest a real dialogue, here on TAM is to bring down wrath upon your head up to an including being called a misogynist, angry, hurt or bitter. Women (and men) don't need to TELL, they need to discuss.



Oh my god. Ok. First of all, he agrees to stuff he apparently has no intention of doing. Second of all, we do NOT have make up sex. In fact, we haven't had much sex at all - exactly ONE time in two months - and it wasn't even that good. There is no mistake that things are sh*tty at my house. My H told me 4 years into our marriage that he had only just now fallen in love with me. He told me before that, he married me because I was "safe and loyal." That's the biggest lie he's told me so far - and he's lied a lot. 

Hang on a sec. I am logging into my email account so that I can grab a few snippets of discussions. 

K this could get long - as most of our discussions are very lengthy due to having to go into some explicit detail so that he's not confused. 

Quotes from emails:

*From TWO years ago in 2014 (please keep in mind we are STILL dealing with the exact same issues from back then - so in other words, not sh*t has been done)*

*Him:* i think that there is a point in everyone's life that they have to look at themselves and decide what they want to do from that point on. I feel like that point was reached not too long ago when you sent the email saying that I hurt you deeply. 

*Him:* i have realized that you have been painted into a corner where you have to act a certain way to keep from being hurt again. and i don't blame you for it

*Him:* I can tell you with a whole heart that I love you. you are precious to me and i dont ever want to see you hurt again.

*Those things sound so nice, don't they? Well, they were in response to an email I sent him that included this:*

*Me: *I cant take the lies. I cant take you just being able to look right at me and lie knowing that it hurts me. You seem to think that the truth will hurt, so lying must be better. It's not. But you know this. Still it seems that you don't really care so long as you don't get caught. Why are you married? Serious question. Don't say because you love me because you've already said you didn't. You need to think about why we are together. What benefits are you getting? What cons are there? 

*That seems VERY specific to me. I mean, I told him what my issue was. 

Okay, let's move on to a different email - again this is 2014 (I have emails dating back to 2010....)*

*Me: (this is about his way over use of porn and denying me sex)* You choose them over me. It's been this way for 5 years. You still manage to come up with excuses as to why you need it - and why you deny me sex then go and watch porn for HOURS.

Why? I never denied you. Ever....until this deployment. Oh wait, no I didn't. I sent you intimate, embarrassing pics that you ASKED for and didn't use. In fact, you threw them aside for almost an hour of porn. So, I have zero interest in continuing an intimate relationship with you, let alone this "marriage", if that's what you can call it. You embarrassed me. You made me feel like I wasn't good enough. You took those pics that I sent and literally just tossed them aside. DO you have any idea how bad that hurt me?

You leave the house thinking you can do what you want because I'll never find out while you're deployed. That's not how someone treats a spouse and I shouldn't have to explain how wrong that is. Yet here I am, year after year trying to explain to you WHY. 

*His response: * You are right about a lot of things, and me making excuses is chief among those. I have rationalized and overstepped boundaries to the point that im falling over a cliff. I only have one strand of thread to hold onto and its about to break. I wont be talking about anything in that aspect any more. I have taken every chance I had and pissed it all away, and for what sin disguised as pleasure. Heart ache for everyone.


So, in just these two emails he acknowledged that he knew what he was doing. He said he wanted to change. Has he? 


LMAO.............No. 

Since most of our emails are pretty lengthy, I will leave this here and if you want more examples, just let me know. I will gladly post more. 

I have a question though. Are my words not specific enough? Am I supposed to be discussing something differently? Keep in mind that these emails were from 2 years ago. I have been fed up with him for for quite some time now. So, these emails from me do sound sarcastic and harsh because by that time, I had heard the excuses a million times. The earlier emails are nicer and even more detailed.

I also do not think that all men are evil. I think my H is a great person in many areas. He is an amazing father and I honestly couldn't ask for a better man to be the father of my children. He loves those kids to death. But he has an ego the size of Alaska and it has to be stroked CONSTANTLY and he especially loves it if other women do it. That tends to cause issues in our relationship. He doesn't want to divorce. He says I am the perfect W. He says he was just stunted in seeing that. Yet he still does the same old stuff to hurt me. So - we will see. I will NOT be blamed for his short comings. I have tried and I KNOW I have tried. If we end in divorce - I won't feel like I could have done more. I've been trying to do more for years now.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Holland said:


> No one wins in a divorce.
> 
> This sort of attitude speaks volumes, when people are married they build up their estate together, it is not his or hers. Add to that the fact that more women work outside the home than don't. *That women still do the majority of child rearing and housework even if they work outside the home.
> *
> ...


In some households men do a great majority of child rearing and household chores. I don't think it can be assumed that women do this. In these cases when men also bring home a great majority of the money, it is a combined estate but that they have made almost by themselves. In these cases men lose 70% of their worth in a divorce, women lose but not near this much. If you lose this much you're not even poverty level, you can't afford a basic apartment, car or transportation to work and only a very basic diet. Plus you're froced to be without your kids everyday except every other weekend. That alone is a deal breaker for me. You deserve more out of life if you have a high stress / high demand job necessary to meet the demands placed on you. So, men like me are forced to stay married in a bad relationship. Believe what you want to. I've seen this happen to men just like me, my age and at my income level and that's what happened. If you're in this situation, you can't just move on.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> Oh my god. Ok. First of all, he agrees to stuff he apparently has no intention of doing. Second of all, we do NOT have make up sex. In fact, we haven't had much sex at all - exactly ONE time in two months - and it wasn't even that good. There is no mistake that things are sh*tty at my house. My H told me 4 years into our marriage that he had only just now fallen in love with me. He told me before that, he married me because I was "safe and loyal." That's the biggest lie he's told me so far - and he's lied a lot.
> 
> Hang on a sec. I am logging into my email account so that I can grab a few snippets of discussions.
> 
> ...


Yes indeed- OMG! Perhaps you missed all of the "perhaps" included in my post? As I said before these are issues YOUR H has to live with. But I can assure you there are plenty of men who place and/or have placed their wife, family and marriage ahead of themselves. The blanket "it is a given that women are the keepers of the relationship" is a load of crap. PERHAPS in yours and NS's case that is the case, but I think it is the exception and not the norm. But yet excuses are routinely made that SHE told him, but he didn't listen. I am here to tell you that is NOT always the case. I wish you luck moving forward. Perhaps you need to follow thru on your threats and stop bluffing?


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Ynot said:


> Yes indeed- OMG! Perhaps you missed all of the "perhaps" included in my post? As I said before these are issues YOUR H has to live with. But I can assure you there are plenty of men who place and/or have placed their wife, family and marriage ahead of themselves. The blanket "it is a given that women are the keepers of the relationship" is a load of crap. PERHAPS in yours and NS's case that is the case, but I think it is the exception and not the norm. But yet excuses are routinely made that SHE told him, but he didn't listen. I am here to tell you that is NOT always the case. I wish you luck moving forward. Perhaps you need to follow thru on your threats and stop bluffing?


I think you're right. I do have a 2 year plan that my H knows about -
If we so happen to work things out in that time, great. If not, well my H can do whatever he wants with his new found free time. 

I do think he is trying harder than he has before. I just don't know if it's hard enough. I am giving him credit where it's due though.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

jb02157 said:


> In some households men do a great majority of child rearing and household chores. I don't think it can be assumed that women do this. In these cases when men also bring home a great majority of the money, it is a combined estate but that they have made almost by themselves. In these cases men lose 70% of their worth in a divorce, women lose but not near this much. If you lose this much you're not even poverty level, you can't afford a basic apartment, car or transportation to work and only a very basic diet. Plus you're froced to be without your kids everyday except every other weekend. That alone is a deal breaker for me. You deserve more out of life if you have a high stress / high demand job necessary to meet the demands placed on you. So, men like me are forced to stay married in a bad relationship. Believe what you want to. I've seen this happen to men just like me, my age and at my income level and that's what happened. If you're in this situation, you can't just move on.


I get it and have seen a similar situation in play but at some point it is up to you to decide the value of your freedom and emotional health.

My partner was married for 20 yrs to a woman with MH issues (all medically diagnosed), he is very high income, did the vast majority of the house work and cared for the kids when he was home. She didn't work for most of the marriage and 6 yrs post divorce still causes him problems. He is still dealing with financial issues and now MH issues with one of his kids.

But 6 years post divorce he now has his life back on track, still earning a big income and has a great future. He does not see his kids as much as he would if in the family home but when he does see them it is a much higher quality time. 

He gave up the vast majority of their assets but is far happier today than he has ever been. Over time he has dealt with his side of the marriage break down, took responsibility for his part and yes we ALL play a part in our own lives and marriage breakdowns.

Your posts are so bitter and that is understandable, I felt the same way towards the end of my marriage but you know what, life is better today than it was in a crappy marriage. You are the only one that can set yourself free. This is on you not anyone else. I hope one day you can find the courage to see you are worth a new chance on happiness, as it stands you are wasting your own life.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Ynot said:


> Actually, you and NS did more or less say that. You TOLD him, he didn't listen. - Ultimatum given! I am still waiting to hear about an actual DISCUSSION. You know, a dialogue where both sides offer their side and the other side considers it? Perhaps the itemized bulleted point ultimatum, wasn't the best way to effectively communicate the message? Perhaps the repeated threats to leave (typically in a heated argument often followed by make up sex) was not the best way to convey a message? Perhaps all the items on the highlighted, bulleted memo were a RESULT of the wife's actions?
> *You see, I not only get tired of men being constantly blamed, but I get tired of hearing how men are constantly TOLD. As I said, I would love to hear about an actual discussion, where both sides are heard.*
> Even to suggest a real dialogue, here on TAM is to bring down wrath upon your head up to an including being called a misogynist, angry, hurt or bitter. Women (and men) don't need to TELL, they need to discuss.


My ex was shocked the day I told him it was over. Just showed me he had not taken seriously or even listened when we had all those hours of discussion over the last 5 yrs of the marriage. It also reinforced that I had made the right decision.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I think many men just don't believe it. I know I was in denial. She loved me. I loved her. We work together toward a goal. We have our whole lives ahead of us. It will take time to change in all the ways she wants. 

Truly I believe sometimes the changes needed are not within the capabilities of the husband. I think some change can occur, but the sweeping change that is sometimes expected is just not possible. 

Maybe husbands believe their wives will understand this? I don't know. 

Basically, it's denial. We don't see the desperation for some reason. Maybe our wives just didn't show us what we would understand as desperation? Maybe they didn't want us to change for them, but for ourselves? Maybe they figured, if we really changed, it would have to come from within, not from prodding and poking us?

Maybe they figured we loved them so much and were so compatible, we would understand and do the work because we knew them so well? Maybe they figured we knew they were serious and that the world would treat them better than we were? Maybe they had options that we didn't? Maybe we figured they didn't have the options they did? 

You have to search yourself to figure that out.

Are there those women who don't tell their husbands? I bet there are. I'm thinking those are the exception. You may have had one of those wives.


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