# Is infidelity OK in a sexless marriage?



## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

Over the 12 year relationship with my wife, our sex life has gone from bad to non-existent. It was never good - even when we were dating. She's very pretty but I've never been sexually attracted to her. When you’re 18 you don’t think such a thing is possible… Our relationship was based on friendship, companionship, and shared interests. She had a fairly active libido when we first met but we’ve never been compatible sexually. She is incredibly sensitive and most anything I do in bed "hurts" her. I'm not into rough sex, just a little dirty talk and some light role playing. With my past partners, I'm used to doing things like a little nibbling, the occasional hair pulling, or playful biting and slapping. With her, all of that stuff was just awkward and not received well at all. She tried a few times to give me oral pleasure but it was never good. So that was totally abandoned as well. Using her own words, she is "too sensitive" for anything but missionary position. We talked about it and worked on it the first year or so, about how we could learn to pleasure each other, but over time, sex just devolved into this horrible routine. Once married, we basically only had sex to procreate. We'd turn on some porn, which I introduced her to but after a while she was requesting every time, then she'd assume the missionary position. I'd caress her for about 15-20 minutes until she was aroused. During that time, I'd almost always get scolded at some point for being too rough and not being sensitive to her needs. Then when she was wet, I'd get myself aroused by looking at the porn, and then we'd screw. She always came before I did, but over the years I taught myself how to cum faster (not something I ever thought I'd have to worry about). Then we clean up the mess and go back to watching regular TV. Frankly, it sucked. Sometimes I dreaded having sex. But then, things actually got worse. She knew the few times we really had good sex was when we climaxed at / near the same time. Because she really wanted to pleasure me, she became so worried about always coming before me, that she started holding back her orgasms. So now, she has a mental block and can't even orgasm anymore even when she wants to. So then her libido went away because she doesn't enjoy sex anymore either. Welcome to the club. I can't even remember the last time we had sex other than failed penetration that left her wincing in pain. The last thing I want to do is hurt my wife physically so I’d get limp just seeing her suffer. It was horrible.

At some point I began feeling self doubt. Was I a bad lover? Was I a clutz in bed? I also wonder about why she would insist on watching porn every time we had sex. Is it a crutch for her too or some way to fantasize about things she’s unwilling to talk about? I can be very candid about sex but she’s totally unwilling.

Now the bad part, I eventually reached the point that I couldn’t take it anymore and I started cheating about a year ago. I'm not here to make excuses for what I've done, or say that she drove me to cheating. But I couldn’t go the rest of my life without sex. I can’t call what my wife and I were doing sex. My lover is of course much younger than I am. I’m 41 and she is 26. I lied (by omission) to get her into bed. We had sex in the car repeatedly, and at her place several times before we had the “why don’t you ever take me to your place” conversation. I confessed, she cried and ended it immediately. I never told my wife about it and actually used my rediscovered libido to try to rekindle our sex life. On several occasions, after a date night or a fun evening, I tried to get romantic with her. She was either too tired or when we tried, it was too painful for her. This is when I realized she has no libido left at all. So after about a half dozen attempts, I became frustrated and gave up. I never try to have sex her with anymore and she hasn’t brought it up once in over six months. I sometimes wonder if she ever wants to have sex again.

Meanwhile, I thought that it was over with my mistress but she texted me a few months later – right about the time I was giving up on having sex with my wife. We had breakfast and before you knew it, we were at it again. This time it was noticeably different though. She had a romantic interest in the past, but now this was only about sex. No dinner, no small talk, just screwing. The way my work life is structured this could go on indefinitely and my wife might never find out. It’s not really what I want though. I recently asked my lover why she came back to me. She told me that “I’m the only man she ever met who knows how to touch a woman”. I was floored. It freaked me out because I realized that she was much more emotionally invested in this than she was leading on to. I wonder if she will do something spiteful if I end it. It also made me think about my relationship with my wife. How would we ever make things work sexually, if my love making experiences with two women are such polar opposites? I wanted to go to sex therapy with my wife, but under those circumstances it’s inevitable that I would reveal the infidelity. That would likely lead to divorce. We have two kids which is why this is so difficult. Otherwise I would have probably ended the marriage by now. I’m fairly certain the only kind of love I have for my wife is sibling love, not romantic love. Is there any hope?


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

Infidelity is not OK in a sexless marriage but it seems that you have already answered.

What kind of hope are you looking for? Going back to bad sex when you were 18 years old? Is that the best case scenario?


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

My first answer would be: NO! Infidelity is NEVER OK!

If you experience sexual incompatibility, both in libido and/or technique, you should have gone to therapy much earlier, and see the results. But you delayed for too long, and instead of fixing the problem, you created new problem by cheating. That is very unwise and unacceptable.

I think you should get a divorce. It is obvious that if this marriage is not terminated soon, it is bound to bring more pain and guilty feelings, for both of you. 

Ending a marriage does not have to be hostile. If you both agree that it isn't working, there are ways to have no-fault divorce, splitting everything equally, giving her the best settlement she can get, and still be good co-parents for your children. It's better for your kids to see you two divorced and remains good friends, rather than still married but being unhappy and dishonest.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

I get your dilemma but unless you're honest with your wife it's WRONG.

For me it would be wrong in any case but I'm not faced with this dilemma so I'll not make that judgement.

Tell your wife, be honest and move forward with respect for each other.


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## dubbizle (Jan 15, 2012)

So I will say the standard of why not get divorced because you really don't have a marrige in the first place and your wife is not willing to work to figure out why she is always hurting or have you tried a DOC.

I am one that says why would a spouse even think you are going to be faithful if there is no sex ? If you can't get a divorce and your spouses refuese to work on things then live life.Your other woman may out you, but that is the chance you are taking.

It seems pretty plain and simple,if you are not having pleasursable sex with you spouse then they might go find somebody who will.


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## Lordhavok (Mar 14, 2012)

Sounds like you just want to brag or get validation.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

NO
And never attracted to wife sounds like you are in the Fog there.

You are using sex with another to mask the problems in your marriage, and because you never had the guts to face up to your wife on your sexless marriage.

It takes two people to be in a sexless marriage.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

get a divorce already! thia is no way to live your life. your living a lie and even if you never get caught ( which I think is impossible ) you can't possibly like the life you chose.


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## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

> When you’re 18 you don’t think such a thing is possible…





> With my past partners, I'm used to doing things like a little nibbling, the occasional hair pulling, or playful biting and slapping.


These two things confuse me. You met your wife at 18 but had all this experience with "past partners"?

I can totally relate to your frustration as I have lived in a completely non-sexual marriage for a very long time. I'm on the fence with answering your original question but you clearly need to just get divorced.


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## Sunshine1234 (Aug 20, 2012)

I agree that you need to do something right now otherwise the affair will come out and devastate your wife. Your options are ending the marriage now or ending the affair and committing yourself completely to your marriage and sex therapy. Never ever tell your wife about the other woman. Being a wife, I would rather not know than experience the heart ache. You both made mistakes.

By the way, your wife needs to tell her doctor about the pain/sensitivity. That needs to be fixed. She is not "just sensitive". Does she exercise? That will help her sensitivity tremendously.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

No. And I say that as someone who cheated on his wife. Do the right thing and either end the cheating or end the marriage. And do it before you get caught.

C


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

Not only is infidelity always wrong but by having an afair and continuing to have sex with your wife you have put her health at risk.

If you are prepared to work at fixing the problems in your marriage then do so, if not then at least be honest about it a seperate.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I think you should get divorced then go find someone who is sexually compatible with you or tell your wife that her alienation of affection and sex has backed you into a corner and you were unfaithful.You never know,she might be relieved you're getting it elsewhere and leaving her alone.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

I understand what it is like to need sex but not want to break up your family over it. I would never say it is ok but it is understandable. I think you should continue to try to help your wife as she is missing out as well. I believe you can still go to sex therapy without divulging the affair but that is your call. 
You do need to find yourself a "safer" affair partner. She seems too attached to you and being singles and young, she may get wrapped in the fantasy that you will leave your wife. Be careful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regga (Jan 22, 2013)

I cannot imagine your dilemma. Sex is important to a marriage. It's such a vulnerability to ask for it and damaging when not a successful transaction. In many different ways. 

I think of sex as a form of communication. Its intimate 'conversation' bonds people. That's what makes affairs so hurtful. 

Have you and your wife ever discussed affairs? I used to tell my husband I would want to know if he was cheating. Some people don't want to know. Respect how she would want to continue to be treated by you if you want to be invested in your marriage. 

Painful sex is also something that can be treated. Has she ever talked with her physician about this? I know there are numbing agents and breathing techniques to help with pain. Sunshine1234 wrote that exercising could help! Time to start a workout routine with together?!?!

I'm going to completely put aside the affair on my next sentence. Your wife wasn't putting your needs or wants for sexual pleasure. You said sex is now gone with your wife and this OW fulfills this desire. You already know this is wrong because you have not told your wife about it. But a sexless marriage is also wrong because you two are not talking about it. The sexless marriage has been rug swept. 

Do some soul searching. Start listening to your inner voice. You can either take control of your situation, or allow it to control you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rather than pass judgement on if infidelity is right or wrong, I prefer the utilitarian approach. Does it fix the problem? Make you a happy and content husband? Draw you closer to your spouse or push you further away, but not as far away as you probably need to get?

In the end, it's only going to cause more pain and suffering, and completely fails the test of being good for anyone. Even though I firmly believe that a spouse who unilaterally ends sexual relations in a marriage loses the right to restrict their partner's sexual behavior, infidelity isn't a good solution.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Cheating is never acceptable & in my opinion if you can do it, then the marriage is already over. There are a lot of us in sexless marriages that don't cheat. If you need sex that bad then divorce. You can't have 2 partners, one for sex & one for companionship.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Ahem....the long and short....

**** NO. 

Talk to your wife or use your hand. 

Don't cheat.

You took a vow to be eternally faithful. There is no "unless" about that. 

If you'd be willing to abandon that vow, you are better off getting a divorce.

By the way, I'm one of those kids whose daddy just HAD to have a mistress....everyone else here can sugar coat and feel bad for you. I don't feel bad for you.

If you're so unhappy, let her go find someone who won't cheat on her. 

If you cheat on her, you don't really love her. 

And you can keep screwing 26 year olds. It's a win win.

Emotional need my left foot. 

Seriously, I know some very good lawyers. I fully recommend you get one.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I think there is more to your wife's sex problems than being too sensitive. There is probably some trauma in her history. Whatever is going on with her though she is not going to turn around and become the active lover you desire.

Staying married for the kids is usually a really bad idea. It sounds good but it is probably mostly a cop out due to fear. Your unhappiness in the marriage and your outside affair are probably having a much bigger negative impact on your wife than you realize.

I think you should divorce your wife. It would be a kindness to everyone involved.

Having been in a long term sexless marriage, I can understand the temptation to cheat, but NO it is not ok to cheat.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

BeachGuy said:


> These two things confuse me. You met your wife at 18 but had all this experience with "past partners"?
> 
> I can totally relate to your frustration as I have lived in a completely non-sexual marriage for a very long time. I'm on the fence with answering your original question but you clearly need to just get divorced.


I never said I was 18 when I met her. I was 29. I was just making a comment that when one is young an naive (18), you think the only thing that matters for good sex is looks.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

dubbizle said:


> So I will say the standard of why not get divorced because you really don't have a marrige in the first place and your wife is not willing to work to figure out why she is always hurting or have you tried a DOC.
> 
> I am one that says why would a spouse even think you are going to be faithful if there is no sex ? If you can't get a divorce and your spouses refuese to work on things then live life.Your other woman may out you, but that is the chance you are taking.
> 
> It seems pretty plain and simple,if you are not having pleasursable sex with you spouse then they might go find somebody who will.


Ah, yes. Selfishness to the maximum. Refreshing. My faith in humanity is restored.

You don't get to have a ***** to **** and then a wife to raise your kids and do your laundry. 

Make a choice. Be a man.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Ah, yes. Selfishness to the maximum. Refreshing. My faith in humanity is restored.
> 
> You don't get to have a ***** to **** and then a wife to raise your kids and do your laundry.
> 
> Make a choice. Be a man.


not supporting cheating here but in the same vein as you don't get to have a ***** to **** and then a wife to raise your kids and do your laundry, the wife doesn't get to deny intimacy and sex while still having a husband who pays the bills,gives her security,helps with raising the kids,and stands by her side in her times of need.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> NO
> And never attracted to wife sounds like you are in the Fog there


What does that mean? I knew this before we even got married. I'm new to this site and am just learning some of the terms. My wife didn't do a Bait and Switch, but I guess I'm HD and she is LD. It didn't start that way. When we dated I'd say she was HD and I "seemed" LD because it didn't do much for me. We always did it when she asked, but she initiated more than me. It was about as fulfilling for me as masturbation but more work. When she lost the ability to orgasm that's what completely ended it. This was while we were trying to conceive and she always tried to wait for me cum. It really pissed me off once when we talked about sex more recently (last year) and she blamed me for "making her this way". It's like now that she gets about as much out of it (nothing) as I have for all these years, she's fine to never have sex again. I am certainly resentful about that. I told her so but the conversation was headed in a hurtful direction so I left it alone.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> not supporting cheating here but in the same vein as you don't get to have a ***** to **** and then a wife to raise your kids and do your laundry, the wife doesn't get to deny intimacy and sex while still having a husband who pays the bills,gives her security,helps with raising the kids,and stands by her side in her times of need.


I agree. 

It's called a divorce. 

But it's very selfish to pick and choose what you want while stringing two separate people along.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I agree.
> 
> It's called a divorce.
> 
> But it's very selfish to pick and choose what you want while stringing two separate people along.


oh I'm not disputing the need for serious discussion and potential divorce.
I'm just saying that it goes both ways.Neither party is allowed to cake eat.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> oh I'm not disputing the need for serious discussion and potential divorce.
> I'm just saying that it goes both ways.Neither party is allowed to cake eat.


I'm sorry if I seem harsh but my father pulled this same **** and it was a world of living hell for everyone involved.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> I'm sorry if I seem harsh but my father pulled this same **** and it was a world of living hell for everyone involved.


not harsh at all  no worries


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

OK so I know this situation isn't right. That is why I am here. My thread title was really a rhetorical question. At the moment, our marriage is "better" because what was a HUGE void for me, is I getting filled by somebody else. But it's lunacy to think that could go on indefinitely. I also know that she would not be OK with me being with another woman. I know her well, maybe sometimes better than she knows herself. She could probably say the same thing about me. Though I'm fairly certain she doesn't suspect a thing.

My real question is if there is any hope with our marriage? I don't think there is but for my kids' sake I'm searching for answers. How do you get an LD person to start down the path of therapy when she wasn't willing to deal with the compatibility issues when we did have an active sex life? As I think about it more and more, I realize I'm probably the one who pulled the bait and switch. I knew sex with her was unfulfilling. I talked with her about it but she didn't take any action and then I just pretended I was OK with it. For 10 years, I did ALL the work when we made love. It was a chore and the resentment built up as things got worse. I think sex is too important to live without. It's the reason we exist. Therapy would have been much easier before the affair. I was always in favor of it, but now it scares even me. I know I can't have a candid talk with her anymore unless the affair comes out. It's just my nature to withhold, withhold, then come totally clean. No in between. I wish I had found a forum like this before I strayed. Just glancing at the thread titles I see there are so many other people that were in my situation.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> not supporting cheating here but in the same vein as you don't get to have a ***** to **** and then a wife to raise your kids and do your laundry, the wife doesn't get to deny intimacy and sex while still having a husband who pays the bills,gives her security,helps with raising the kids,and stands by her side in her times of need.


I sometimes wonder if that is why she stays with me. We rely entirely on my income and she is a stay at home mommy. Between the kids and my work, we hardly have time for anything together. No time for any real shared interests until the kids are older. If you don't even want sex what else is there???


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> Over the 12 year relationship with my wife, our sex life has gone from bad to non-existent. It was never good - even when we were dating. She's very pretty but I've never been sexually attracted to her.


It's hard to fix what was never there. Sadly, your situation is a cautionary tale. Marriage rarely fixes pre-existing issues. And if you don't desire your prospective spouse, move on.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

My thinking on the cheating is, just for a minute, put aside the potential pain it could cause your spouse, your mistress and your children. Think of how it impacts you. 

Most of us aspire to be good people and look forward to being able to lie on our death beds and feel proud of what we accomplished during our lives. 

Once you've cheated you've lowered yourself a notch. You're now going to lie on your death bed knowing when the going got tough...you cheated. 

Maybe I'm deluding myself in thinking that's important but to me it is.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> I sometimes wonder if that is why she stays with me. We rely entirely on my income and she is a stay at home mommy. Between the kids and my work, we hardly have time for anything together. No time for any real shared interests until the kids are older. If you don't even want sex what else is there???


I wouldn't want to have sex with you either.

If you have any hope, you need to confess. And then I'm sure she'll just be dripping with lust. 

You set yourself up for what is to come. She has a legitimate reason to be repulsed now.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> I sometimes wonder if that is why she stays with me. We rely entirely on my income and she is a stay at home mommy. Between the kids and my work, we hardly have time for anything together. No time for any real shared interests until the kids are older. If you don't even want sex what else is there???


You cheated because you wanted sex. You wanted sex more than you wanted to be honest, upstanding or noble. You wanted sex more than you cared about her feelings or for that matter, your self worth.

If you have any ounce of conscience, you have to feel bad. You should feel bad. 

Get real with us and with yourself. You just wanted sex. At the bottom of all the complicated rationale, there is that fact. 

You lied to a young girl in order to get it. You betrayed your wife in order to get it. 

It is clear that is what is most important to you. You're just afraid of what people will think. Of what you'll think of yourself.

You don't want to be that guy who left over sex.

But instead, you're that bastard who cheated with a 20 something to get sex. 

So you're already at the bottom of the barrel. Divorce can only elevate you.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

Sunshine1234 said:


> I agree that you need to do something right now otherwise the affair will come out and devastate your wife. Your options are ending the marriage now or ending the affair and committing yourself completely to your marriage and sex therapy. Never ever tell your wife about the other woman. Being a wife, I would rather not know than experience the heart ache. You both made mistakes.
> 
> By the way, your wife needs to tell her doctor about the pain/sensitivity. That needs to be fixed. She is not "just sensitive". Does she exercise? That will help her sensitivity tremendously.


I know her well enough that telling her about the affair will not help. I actually don't think it will end in divorce. She would probably just shut down emotionally and then our relationship would become a even greater charade than it is now. Then either I leave, so she can blame me, or we'd separate after the kids are grown.

She exercises somewhat regularly and is very fit for her age (45). She has the body of a 20-something year old. Again, it's not about lack of physical attractiveness. It doesn't seem like a medical condition to me. But I'm open to exploring all possibilities. Her nipples are SO sensitive that she doesn't allow me to fondle her breasts without her wearing a bra. It doesn't even occur to her any longer that I need to get something out of it too. We can't have intercourse unless she's totally wet and that takes a long time. So just grabbing her or waking her in the middle of the night is a total non-starter. For me, half the excitement (maybe 90% actually) is the spontaneity. The moment it becomes mechanical it sucks. Then if she scolds me "I told you so many times I don't like being touched like that", there is nothing that kills an erection faster.

At the same time I believe there is something going on with her fixation with porn the last few years we did have sex. I suggested it to help get us (really me) get in the mood. Then she wanted it on every time. Sometimes I'd watch her as she got aroused and noticed it was almost always during couples friendly lesbian sex. I asked her once if she likes girls, and she said definitely not. She said they are just more attractive and sensual then ugly male porn stars. She never wants to watch scenes where they look like "animals". The moment sex was over, if it was a scene with a male actor she thought it was gross and demanded that I turn it off. I don't think she likes girls but what am I to read from that?


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> OK so I know this situation isn't right. That is why I am here. My thread title was really a rhetorical question. At the moment, our marriage is "better" because what was a HUGE void for me, is I getting filled by somebody else. But it's lunacy to think that could go on indefinitely. I also know that she would not be OK with me being with another woman. I know her well, maybe sometimes better than she knows herself. She could probably say the same thing about me. Though I'm fairly certain she doesn't suspect a thing.
> 
> My real question is if there is any hope with our marriage? I don't think there is but for my kids' sake I'm searching for answers. How do you get an LD person to start down the path of therapy when she wasn't willing to deal with the compatibility issues when we did have an active sex life? As I think about it more and more, I realize I'm probably the one who pulled the bait and switch. I knew sex with her was unfulfilling. I talked with her about but she didn't take any action and then I just pretended I was OK with it. For 10 years, I did ALL the work when we made love. It was a chore and the resentment built up as things got worse. I think sex is too important to live without. It's the reason we exist. Therapy would have been much easier before the affair. I was always in favor of it, but now it scares even me. I know I can't have a candid talk with her anymore unless the affair comes out. It's just my nature to withhold, withhold, then come totally clean. No in between. I wish I had found a forum like this before I strayed. Just glancing at the thread titles I see there are so many other people that were in my situation.



I've been with my wife for over 20 years now. She was LD from the start. Like you, My wife and I were friends. We did and still do most everything together. For about 18 years of it I was OK with it. I guess I just adapted to her LD. Sex was never good. I convinced myself it didn't matter.

What Changed with me/ I guess I hit my MLC. I started working out and got in better shape and my sex drive ramped up. I also believed my wife wasn't holding up her part of the marriage (not necessarily related to sex) other things!

So I became way more assertive with sex. We went from 2-3 times a month to 2-3 time a week. Before sex was over in just 3 minutes and now 30 or more. My poor wife! She is also in pain. She doesn't want to see the doc.

I didn't have an affair, but I guess I am/was close to an EA. One woman just wants a lunch date to "catch up" I haven't did that yet. 

What I do enjoy are the compliments I get from several women in my circle. Things my wife never tells me. I guess like you, I want validation my I am not a bad lover who can't get my wife to O. Sometimes I want to find out. I hope that time doesn't come. It would hurt so many people...all because of SEX. I am glad I found TAM. 

My dad cheated on my mom and then again on my step-mom. I know what cheating does to a family. Although sex is so important, my wife doesn't desearve that. I don't want my daughter to think of me the same way I think of my Dad.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> I know her well enough that telling her about the affair will not help. I actually don't think it will end in divorce. She would probably just shut down emotionally and then our relationship would become a even greater charade than it is now. Then either I leave, so she can blame me, or we'd separate after the kids are grown.
> 
> She exercises somewhat regularly and is very fit for her age (45). She has the body of a 20-something year old. Again, it's not about lack of physical attractiveness. It doesn't seem like a medical condition to me. But I'm open to exploring all possibilities. Her nipples are SO sensitive that she doesn't allow me to fondle her breasts without her wearing a bra. It doesn't even occur to her any longer that I need to get something out of it too. We can't have intercourse unless she's totally wet and that takes a long time. So just grabbing her or waking her in the middle of the night is a total non-starter. For me, half the excitement (maybe 90% actually) is the spontaneity. The moment it becomes mechanical it sucks. Then if she scolds me "I told you so many times I don't like being touched like that", there is nothing that kills an erection faster.
> 
> At the same time I believe there is something going on with her fixation with porn the last few years we did have sex. I suggested it to help get us (really me) get in the mood. Then she wanted it on every time. Sometimes I'd watch her as she got aroused and noticed it was almost always during couples friendly lesbian sex. I asked her once if she likes girls, and she said definitely not. She said they are just more attractive and sensual then ugly male porn stars. She never wants to watch scenes where they look like "animals". The moment sex was over, if it was a scene with a male actor she thought it was gross and demanded that I turn it off. I don't think she likes girls but what am I to read from that?


This is load of horse dung. 

YOU NEED TO TELL HER THE TRUTH if you have any hope of salvaging this....I hesitate to call it a marriage, at this point. 

You don't get to decide what is best for her. You cheated on her. You have to tell her. That's it.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> This is load of horse dung.
> 
> YOU NEED TO TELL HER THE TRUTH if you have any hope of salvaging this....I hesitate to call it a marriage, at this point.
> 
> You don't get to decide what is best for her. You cheated on her. You have to tell her. That's it.


I strongly disagree. The confession is almost always for the benefit of the cheater, who thinks he/she has come clean and therefore must be forgiven. It's just a way for the cheater to try to deal with his/her guilt. For the innocent spouse the confession is usually a negative, a destructive move that is emotionally devastating.

The OP needs to be honest with HIMSELF and not pawn the guilt onto his wife. He did it and he alone should deal with the consequences. But if he's got an ounce of decency, he should make a choice--the marriage or the 20-year old. But as he's confessed he was never attracted to his wife, he probably should give her a chance to find someone who is.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> Get real with us and with yourself. You just wanted sex. At the bottom of all the complicated rationale, there is that fact.


Did I ever deny that? I'm not seeking sympathy from you or anyone but most of your comments are not constructive.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

jaharthur said:


> I strongly disagree. The confession is almost always for the benefit of the cheater, who thinks he/she has come clean and therefore must be forgiven. It's just a way for the cheater to try to deal with his/her guilt. For the innocent spouse the confession is usually a negative, a destructive move that is emotionally devastating.
> 
> The OP needs to be honest with HIMSELF and not pawn the guilt onto his wife. He did it and he alone should deal with the consequences. But if he's got an ounce of decency, he should make a choice--the marriage or the 20-year old. But as he's confessed he was never attracted to his wife, he probably should give her a chance to find someone who is.


She seriously has a right to know if her HUSBAND screwed a 26 year old girl. 

Seriously, even it if kills her he can't just go on lying.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

She isn't being honest with you either based on her porn preferences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> Did I ever deny that? I'm not seeking sympathy from you or anyone but most of your comments are not constructive.


You owe her the truth. 

That much at least. 

Actions have consequences.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> I strongly disagree. The confession is almost always for the benefit of the cheater, who thinks he/she has come clean and therefore must be forgiven. It's just a way for the cheater to try to deal with his/her guilt. For the innocent spouse the confession is usually a negative, a destructive move that is emotionally devastating.
> 
> The OP needs to be honest with HIMSELF and not pawn the guilt onto his wife. He did it and he alone should deal with the consequences. But if he's got an ounce of decency, he should make a choice--the marriage or the 20-year old. But as he's confessed he was never attracted to his wife, he probably should give her a chance to find someone who is.


This is really helpful. It wasn't clear to me until I read this but that is why I don't see anything constructive coming from a confession. I feel like I need to resolve that issue myself before WE can get counselling.

Also there is no fog in regards to the 26-year old. I'm not considering leaving my wife for her. If we separate, it's not to be with her. In fact I would probably end it IF it left my wife.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

jaharthur said:


> I strongly disagree. The confession is almost always for the benefit of the cheater, who thinks he/she has come clean and therefore must be forgiven. It's just a way for the cheater to try to deal with his/her guilt. For the innocent spouse the confession is usually a negative, a destructive move that is emotionally devastating.
> 
> The OP needs to be honest with HIMSELF and not pawn the guilt onto his wife. He did it and he alone should deal with the consequences. But if he's got an ounce of decency, he should make a choice--the marriage or the 20-year old. But as he's confessed he was never attracted to his wife, he probably should give her a chance to find someone who is.


:iagree:



OP, be a good person, do the right thing, divorce your wife, let her go, let her find another love. You will not life forever, do you want to be dishonest and untrustworthy for the rest of your life? You made a terrible mistake, do not repeat it again, or karma will one day bite you so hard you'll never recover.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> This is really helpful. It wasn't clear to me until I read this but that is why I don't see anything constructive coming from a confession. I feel like I need to resolve that issue myself before WE can get counselling.
> 
> Also there is no fog in regards to the 26-year old. I'm not considering leaving my wife for her. If we separate, it's not to be with her. In fact I would probably end it IF it left my wife.


I'm done with this thread before I throw up in my mouth.

But if you really think it's okay to lie next to your wife every night and NOT tell her you had an affair, nothing I say is going to make a difference.

You are robbing her of her ability to decide whether she events WANTS to continue with the marriage. 

She can't "move forward" with you based on a lie.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

I'm with LittleBird on everything she has said. Being the "cheatee" victim of my 1st wife, I caught her after I followed her, your marriage is over & you are just pulling a mean prank on your wife. If you have even a shred of feelings for your wife you should divorce her. If your kids ever find out you cheated they will never forgive you. You are only digging a bigger hole. Few "real" men can stay in a sexless marriage & we choose to out of love. I've learned to appreciate what I have & not care about what I don't. This may be stupid but honorable. I've been married for 17 years & my ex has been single & unhappy for 20. Cheaters never win!! At least she had the decency to divorce me & not make excuses.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> Few "real" men can stay in a sexless marriage & we choose to out of love. I've learned to appreciate what I have & not care about what I don't. This may be stupid but honorable. I've been married for 17 years & my ex has been single & unhappy for 20. Cheaters never win!! At least she had the decency to divorce me & not make excuses.


Platitudes. Not all cheaters lose. My first wife cheated on me and it ended our marriage. I never forgave her, but we are still good friends. She remarried (with him) and they've been together for 12 years and have 2 kids. So that statistic that 98% of affairs fail I read on here is also a platitude. We were very young and it was the right thing to end it. Every situation is unique.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

AM2013 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> My husband had an affair 12 years ago, and it was like someone stabbed me. I couldn't hardly breath. The pain was horrible! So consider that before you make a decision.


Are you still together? Is your relationship more honest than it was before he confessed? Do you trust him?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Infidelity is never okay, in my opinion. There is so reason or excuse on this earth strong enough to justify it. I understand why many are tempted to cheat, but actually crossing that boundary is unacceptable. If things are so bad that a person feels like they can't resist the temptation to cheat, then they should divorce, imo.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I understand what you are saying, but having sex with another person while being married is adultery. You're supposed to be intimate with your significant other and no one else. If the marriage isn't working after counseling, then you have to make the decision whether to move on or stay put. If you move on, get divorced, meet a good woman with a high sex drive, marry her, you will be a million times happier. If you stay in your current sexless marriage, having sex with another women is cheating, and breaking your marriage vows.


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## alphabravo (Feb 4, 2013)

Oh my goodness.

Cheating in this case I think it is more than acceptable. This man never signed up for this and suffered for many many years not having his needs met.

What we have here is a family, with kids, that is still intact. Yet everyone seems to think the truth will save everyone and a divorce is better. For who? For the kids who had nothing to do with this? Or for the people reading this weave who get some sick satisfaction instilling their own perverted justice on a family and kids they don't know?

Nobody knows the full 100% of what goes on inside a marriage.

It is also stupid and foolish to think that cheating is one sided and just a "decision" a person makes, foolishly overnight.

My mother had an affair for 7 yrs. She only told us once my father passed away. And in her case, the affair taught her everything that really was wrong with herself. It also taught her what was worth fighting for and saving, which in this case included me. My father was a workaholic who was never home and she was simply a lonely woman.

Not saying the context is the same, but any intelligent reader should get the gist. I'm pumped my mom had an affair and stuck it out and came around and remained married after learning the truth. There were plenty of Christmas days with a tree, family vacations and family meals. 

And yet according to the posters on this board I would have been much better off in a split home and instead of carrying the guilt for all her life and making amends, my mother should of just got a lawyer and moved on?

So poster....back to you. Here are some tips:

1. It is rude and selfish to disclose the affair. Its your bed, you lay in it and don't drag anyone else down with you. Its yours to keep and you need to turn a negative into a positive.

2. You are 100% totally screwed with this single sex pot. She has plans for you that you don't know about yet. So go ahead, tap that pandora's box and tell her "its over". Then you'll see what kind of hell storm you are headed for when you try to exit her life and she flips out on you and starts stalking you or something. You already tried to leave once, now she's going to make your life unbearable.

3. The good news is that the sex pot is your savior because what you are going to go through with her will be the start of seeing just how cool your wife is. Your wife will always be there, she'll actually be excited she can help you and you'll find that you open up to her more. You might even focus more on your kids. If the young girl doesn't go full out bunny boiler on you ( like I suspect), then the guilt alone will eat you alive and force you to make changes.

4. Affairs do that. They force participants to grow up. It shows you the future. And really in order to get ahead of the guilt, what you can do now is be the best dad on the planet, the best husband and while you are at it volunteer at a charity because you need all the karma you can get your hands on. Buy a dog. Learn to play guitar. Hold open doors more for old ladies. And above all, tip the cabbie and waitress like you are a millionaire.

Or.....just stay in a sexless miserable marriage and wonder "what if" the rest of your life. And ask that question till you die never knowing the answer, and also never having the opportunity to know your true self and BE in the moment and in love with your new self ( which was hidden by the sexual neglect of your wife ) to everyone you love around you. 

For some people, never knowing is fine and its safe and it works with their own karma balance. Not you. 

I'm not saying affairs are suitable for everyone. Sexual neglect leading up to an affair in my opinion is much worse than the affair itself. I've seen affairs help marriages like this more often than not as it is about the only thing that can cause a dead locked partner see his / her true self. 

Hands down it is much much easier to just not cheat. But it is harder to pull the plug and divorce and crush the kids. And it is yet near impossible to have an affair and come out alive a better person because of it. My mom did it and so can you. Unfortunately for you, you chose option #3 and now you have to make it work. 

Let me know how it works out and best of luck.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

alphabravo said:


> Oh my goodness.
> 
> *Cheating in this case I think it is more than acceptable*. This man never signed up for this and suffered for many many years not having his needs met.
> 
> ...




I agree with many things you wrote above. EXCEPT the parts I *bolded*. Cheating is never acceptable. I understand why he cheated, but still I don't think it has been a correct course of action. It surely earned him bad karma points, and one day it will bit him back if he does not make it up.

Maybe this thread below will give the OP a different perspective. While in this case the perpetrator is a female, but it helps to learn from other people's experiences. Lesson learned, best practices and all.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/66063-before-you-decide-leave-read-my-story.html


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

alphabravo said:


> Oh my goodness.
> 
> Cheating in this case I think it is more than acceptable. This man never signed up for this and suffered for many many years not having his needs met.
> 
> ...



1. It is rude and selfish *NOT* to disclose the affair. 

Fixed it for you.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> 1. It is rude and selfish *NOT* to disclose the affair.
> 
> Fixed it for you.


Sorta the same way it's selfish to not expose a child molester?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Sorta the same way it's selfish to not expose a child molester?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


.....really? You're comparing my habitual rapes to having an affair? 

I know you don't like me but....really?


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Uh, oh, LB and Mr. Cletus, I love to see your exchanges, but I think you're OOT...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LittleBird said:


> .....really? You're comparing my habitual rapes to having an affair?
> 
> I know you don't like me but....really?


No. Rape is far worse. You seem very committed to seeing that the spouse isn't victimized but chewed other posters out for suggesting you were doing the same thing essentially by creating the possibility of future rape victims. 

You've made your point, you're beating this guy like a rug, and it smacks a little of hypocrisy.

I'll bow out now in an effort to keep the temperature down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> No. Rape is far worse. You seem very committed to seeing that the spouse isn't victimized but chewed other posters out for suggesting you were doing the same thing essentially by creating the possibility of future rape victims.
> 
> You've made your point, you're beating this guy like a rug, and it smacks a little of hypocrisy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was a little girl. He is a grown man. Hopefully there should be some sort of difference in accountability. 

I'm really done with this conversation.


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## alphabravo (Feb 4, 2013)

Hey John thanks for keeping an open eye and being objective with something that is probably disagreeable in more ways than none.

Lack of sexual compatibility is the #1 reason men divorce. Yet it only takes these men about 6 months to realize after the divorce that the reason the sex didn't work was because they were either selfish lovers or incapable of distinguishing between "sex" and "love"

Using a divorce I think is a costly means to achieve these results and there are 4 casualties in this case. Mother, father and two kids. Also, the two kids will marry and bring the "divorce" isssue into their new relationships so the casualty carries on through generations.

But back to your point. Let's assume OP never cheated and just kept festering over the sex issue. Where does that go? Does it disappear? Or does it displace into something else more sinister like porn addiction, gambling, drugs, prostitutes? 

The only thing I've seen help men like this out of going insane in a sane marriage is religion. That works well. But other than that, the full bore cheating option FORCES the issue out and let's the chips fall where they may.

Like I said in my post. For other men in dead lock, affairs won't work. In many cases like this, the sex life is fine and they just have MLC and feel the need to be young again. That is a totally different set of selfishness attributes. And usually, the MLC affair turns into an exit affair and the marriage explodes anyway.

Its just been my experience that men who obsess over sex like this find out how yes, they can have "great" sex but that means giving up 95% of the rest of the stuff they like about their current marriage. 

Sex doesn't solve anything. But for some reason, its a lesson they have to learn on their own because they aren't going to listen to society or read books. So why get a divorce to learn that lesson when you can learn it inside the marriage and at least save the kids? 

And I'll say another thing. When caring people have affairs I've seen total 180's in character and life long efforts at making up for it. In the cases where the guy is just a bastard and has no care for anyone, then yes, a divorce is better.

You should see guilt ridden affair men fight back for their lives once they realized they dodged a bullet. Its actually quite amazing.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

My experience with my ex has shown me that if a spouse is in a "sexless" marriage, he or she is the ONLY one who isn't having sex.
If you are stuck in such a situation, I suggest only listening to two or three "reasons" given for it before moving on to a more appreciative companion.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Once you're married and have kids, the sex should still be the same and not just stop. So if the hubby or wifee don't want sex much anymore, they're being extremely selfish and not taking care of their other halves needs. You can't say say, I don't want sex much anymore and deal with it. That's BS in my books and that individual pulling this crap should be single. The other half that does have the healthy sex drive and wants their hubby or wifee is getting screwed.


Is the LD individual having an EA or an actual affair, thus the LD?

Is there a hormonal issue? We all age and with age everything starts to go.

Do they weight train, cardio and eat healthy or nothing?


If my wifee one day told me, I don't want sex much anymore and she wouldn't be willing to check her hormones, get therapy, start going to a gym to get the life flowing again, I would have to make a serious decision, cheat or divorce. I would rather not cheat because that would devastate her "like stabbing in the heart" but at the same time, you can't kill the sex aspect of the marriage.

Men are built on testosterone, the sex hormone. That means, the majority of all men have high sex drives, want it most of the time and it doesn't take much foreplay to get us in the mood. Women have to remember this when some of them want to minimize or kill the sex part and don't see anything wrong with that. Men are built on test!!!

If the husband after 10+ years of marriage with 2+ kids said, I don't want to be emotionally involved much anymore, what would the wife do? Total switch and see how she'd deal with it? She'd have an EA that's what.

Marriage is literally 50 / 50. That means men compromise and do more emotional support, romance, cuddling, listen to their women. That also means women compromise and have more sex with their men then they might like.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

alphabravo said:


> Hey John thanks for keeping an open eye and being objective with something that is probably disagreeable in more ways than none.


Thank you for the kind words. I have to be like this, because people often came to me for advice. Some really want advice, some only wants justifications. I have to stay as objective as possible. Not easy tho'.



> Lack of sexual compatibility is the #1 reason men divorce. Yet it only takes these men about 6 months to realize after the divorce that the reason the sex didn't work was because they were either selfish lovers or incapable of distinguishing between "sex" and "love"


No arguments here.



> Using a divorce I think is a costly means to achieve these results and there are 4 casualties in this case. Mother, father and two kids. Also, the two kids will marry and bring the "divorce" isssue into their new relationships so the casualty carries on through generations.


From my experience, divorces does not have to be a hostile experience. I have seen, many times, divorced couples becomes better persons after the divorce, and finding better partners for themselves. Off course not all divorces ended like this.

In one case. A TV star married the daughter of a rich clan. They have kids, and life seemed to be good. Then the wife had affairs, admitting that she had affairs because she can't stand all the affection shown by fans to her husband. She cheated because she wanted to be sure that she is still attractive. Bizarre may that reason be, but it resulted in cheating and divorce. But they remain good friends, the ex-husband is forgiving, they became great coparents, and both have married other persons, and living happily for now with their new spouses.



> But back to your point. Let's assume OP never cheated and just kept festering over the sex issue. Where does that go? Does it disappear? Or does it displace into something else more sinister like porn addiction, gambling, drugs, prostitutes?


It could have gone to gambling, drugs and prostitutes, none of them are good. Or it could have gone to divorce, which is something more workable in the long term, rather than doing drugs or gambling and gone to jail. 

It's better for his kids to say "My mom and dad divorced when I was little, but I still meet dad regularly until today"

rather than "My dad were in prison for a long time due to drugs.."




> The only thing I've seen help men like this out of going insane in a sane marriage is religion. That works well. But other than that, the full bore cheating option FORCES the issue out and let's the chips fall where they may.
> 
> Like I said in my post. For other men in dead lock, affairs won't work. In many cases like this, the sex life is fine and they just have MLC and feel the need to be young again. That is a totally different set of selfishness attributes. And usually, the MLC affair turns into an exit affair and the marriage explodes anyway.


Yes, incredible selfishness indeed! 



> Its just been my experience that men who obsess over sex like this find out how yes, they can have "great" sex but that means giving up 95% of the rest of the stuff they like about their current marriage.


True, just like giving up solid gold for fake bronze. These kind of people are selfish and stupid.



> Sex doesn't solve anything. But for some reason, its a lesson they have to learn on their own because they aren't going to listen to society or read books. So why get a divorce to learn that lesson when you can learn it inside the marriage and at least save the kids?


But not through cheating. That is morally indefensible, and is very difficult to justify. Divorce is always better than cheating, and a clean break divorce could have been better for the children's emotional health, than a marriage tainted by cheating on one side and selfishness on the other side.



> And I'll say another thing. *When caring people have affairs I've seen total 180's in character and life long efforts at making up for it*. In the cases where the guy is just a bastard and has no care for anyone, then yes, a divorce is better.


The line which I bolded, I see the possibilities, but it is not something I would recommend to anyone, so I still respectfully disagree. I still think the idea of cheating is morally wrong. Maybe it worked on some cases, but then we are looking at isolated cases. We cannot apply these to general cases. 

I agree 100% with the second line.



> You should see guilt ridden affair men fight back for their lives once they realized they dodged a bullet. Its actually quite amazing.


Not just men, women too. I am not saying that this cannot work. There are possibilities. But again, it is still morally wrong to cheat, it is more permissible and morally righteous to just get a divorce. If the divorce was not hostile, it could give both persons time to think about what they're missing, it could also give both the time to begin realizing the good points of their former spouses, and how much of their own selfishness which could be toned down. It might even lead to reconciliation, on which both sides become better persons and better spouses.

Thank you for the thoughtful discussion.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

CuddleBug said:


> Once you're married and have kids, the sex should still be the same and not just stop. So if the hubby or wifee don't want sex much anymore, they're being extremely selfish and not taking care of their other halves needs. You can't say say, I don't want sex much anymore and deal with it. That's BS in my books and that individual pulling this crap should be single....If my wifee one day told me, I don't want sex much anymore and she wouldn't be willing to check her hormones, get therapy, start going to a gym to get the life flowing again, I would have to make a serious decision, cheat or divorce. *I would rather not cheat* because that would devastate her "like stabbing in the heart" but at the same time, you can't kill the sex aspect of the marriage...Marriage is literally 50 / 50. That means men compromise and do more emotional support, romance, cuddling, listen to their women. That also means women compromise and have more sex with their men than they might like.


:iagree: totally


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

That would be great in a perfect marriage but seldom happens. If two people can't or don't want to work out their differences then the marriage is doomed. I still can't believe that some really think it is okay to "do what they have to do" to keep a family in tact, even though it is a mirage. If you're that horny then buy a sex toy. Since you're only achieving physical pleasure out of cheating, you get the same result, without being a fake. Being in a sexless marriage sucks but you have a choice, either divorce & find another mate or "suck it up". How would you like it if the tables were turned, trust me it is horrible!!


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## Loyal Lover (Jan 30, 2013)

This thread makes me sad 

TomorrowNeverKnows, don't you think your wife also deserves to find someone who can satisfy her sexually? You said you love her but you're just not IN LOVE WITH HER. But you do love her, right? I really do think you should be honest with her and decide together if you want to divorce or if you want to work on an open marriage or if you want to work on repairing your marriage. Do it for her, because you love her and while the sex is not good for her either, she is still your faithful wife and mother to your children. Also, do it for yourself. While yes, I do think while you did was wrong, I also think you want to do the right thing. Don't turn into one of those men because otherwise *you might find sexual satisfaction but you will lose any opportunity at finding life satisfaction.*

And I'm very curious... it's hard for men to settle down at all. You say the sex wasn't even good while dating. You say you now love her as a sibling not as a wife/lover. So... why did you marry her in the first place? Did you always feel this way or do you think it's because the sex didn't improve but actually got worst that made you lose your feelings for her?


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## hibiscus (Jul 30, 2012)

You cant keep living this double life.

Getting sex from someone else is not solving the situation at all. I would suggest you both try and work it out. Explain to her how unhappy its making you feel. If she doesnt want to make the effort then its best you end the marriage.

Life is too short.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Possible outcomes:

1) Happy fantastic marriage, 2 parent family. Great example for the kids.
2) Crappy marriage, 2 parent family, dysfunctional example for the kids.
3) Functional divorce. 2 homes, shared parenting. Good example for the kids.
4) Bad divorce. 2 homes, dysfunctional parenting. Bad example for the kids.

People make the mistake all the time of thinking they are choosing between a fantastic married family or a horrible divorced family. So the idea of divorce looks really bad. But in reality the family is screwed up, setting a bad example for the kids to learn relationship skills. A divorce could either be good or bad depending on how the adults handle it.

The ideal is transforming the bad marriage into a really good one. But if that is not possible the adults should realistically evaluate divorce vs staying.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Those defending the affair seem to think two wrongs somehow make a right. As in she's not living up to her side of the marriage so that absolves him of responsibility to live up to his. That may make things equal but it doesn't make it right. 

He made a commitment before god, family and friends to remain faithful to his wife and he chose not to. It doesn't matter what his provocation is...he still chose not to honour his word. Even if she somehow 'deserves' to be cheated on why would he want to lower himself to do that? To me...integrity is important.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Thor said:


> People make the mistake all the time of thinking they are choosing between a fantastic married family or a horrible divorced family.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

I divorced my first husband and I shudder to think what my life and my kids lives would be like today if I hadn't. Thankfully he dropped off the face of the earth so I could raise the kids myself, and I did a helluva job 

To the OP, I think your thread should have been entitled "I cheated because I wasn't getting any, should I tell her?" because you obviously don't think you've done anything that's really that bad.

You can either continue living a lie, or come clean and decide to be a better person. You never should have married your wife in the first place, but you did, then you cheated on her, which didn't fix anything. Do you want to be an honest, happy person, or a lying cheater?


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

Thor said:


> Possible outcomes:
> 
> 1) Happy fantastic marriage, 2 parent family. Great example for the kids.
> 2) Crappy marriage, 2 parent family, dysfunctional example for the kids.
> ...


So allow me to present the possible outcomes from my perspective:

1) Stop cheating, say nothing, OK marriage, happy wife, miserable husband. Great example for the kids.
2) Do nothing, Crappy marriage, miserable wife, miserable husband who cheats, dysfunctional example for the kids.
3) Confess, counseling, functional divorce. Sad wife, happy husband, shared parenting. OK example for the kids.
4) Caught cheating, bad divorce. miserable wife, miserable husband, dysfunctional parenting. Bad example for the kids.

At this moment I do not see your #1 outcome as a possibility. A lot of folks here believe that the spouse always senses underlying issues etc... It's just not always true. I know my wife has no idea. I know she would be blindsided. I just read a huge thread about a husband who was completely blindsided when his wife said she hadn't loved him for 9 years. Then he and others were convinced it was a rationalization to make themselves feel better about an affair. NOT TRUE. I've felt this way for a long time. The affair was not premeditated. I've been frustrated by the poor sex in my marriage for years, and after trying to make it better for so long, and only seeing it get worse (as in totally non-existent), I finally acted when opportunity presented itself.

I'm a good actor. This does not come from insincerity. It's guilt about not feeling anything for my wife any longer. If anything it drives me to be a better example to my kids. They are still young, and very impressionable. Their critical developmental years are ahead. I'm in the easy "daddy is my hero" stage. The teen years will be different.

The tough decision I feel I have to make is do I sacrifice my selfish desires for my kids. What I'm doing right now doesn't feel like cheating on my wife (she drove me to this), but cheating on kids. And they are the most important thing in the world to me. If I don't change something it will end in my #4.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

When someone decides not to have sex with their spouse, they may be 'breaking their vows', but that should mean divorce, not permission for the other spouse to go out and break THEIR vows by cheating.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You really cant' predict how your wife will react to your confession. You may be right, but you may be wrong too.

Read my story. Our marriage today is SO much better than it was before. My husbands cheating was a huge wake up call for me. Your wife may surprise you by going out and finding someone she is truly happy with. Because if she's refusing to have sex with you, it's obvious she isn't happy with you.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

To elaborate on my situation... I had two affair partners at the end of my marriage. I've posted in here before about my situation. But to try to post a Cole's Notes version...

Was in a sexually declining marriage. Wife was rejecting regularly, was refusing to attempt anything to try to improve the situation, like talking to her doctor to see about alternatives to her BC pill, losing weight so she felt better about being seen naked (her concern, not mine). She would stay up late, avoiding the bedroom when she knew I would be awake. She would drink heavily when we arranged for night out without the kids to avoid intimacy. She was pretty good at finding ways to shut down our sex life. Eventually I decided that if I could get my intimacy needs met outside the marriage, I could hang on till the kids were out of the house (they were 10 and 12 at the time).

My first affair lasted about 6 weeks. I found her online, met her in person 3 times over that period (she lived out of town). At the end, she decided she needed more (she was separated), so we ended things, but stayed in contact as friends.

I decided that having an affair wasn't going to let me continue the marriage, and it was time to end the marriage. Ended up staying together for about 3 more months due to holidays and some health related issues on my wife's side, and in that period I had another affair. It lasted about a month, but I ended it about two months before I moved out.

My wife never found out about either of the affairs, although I suspect she knew something was up. I doubt I was a sneaky as I thought I was. But I think she prefered to not have it confirmed. I never confessed to the affairs, as I decided to end the marriage regardless of the affairs, so reconciling wasn't a consideration. My wife wasn't the partner I wanted for the rest of my life for a number of reasons.

I think the fact that she never found out about the affairs has helped us remain amicable through the separation, which in turn has allowed the kids adjust to the new situation easier. I'm definitely not proud of the affairs and have always recommended ending the marriage before an affair through this forum. But I also don't suggest confessing the affair if reconciliation isn't an option. All it will do is hurt the BS and make the separation/divorce that much worse. But I also think that if someone decides to stay, confessing the affair is the only way to truly try to heal the relationship. If the relationship isn't based on truth, it's going to fail.

Just my $0.02 worth. 

C


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

Loyal Lover said:


> And I'm very curious... it's hard for men to settle down at all. You say the sex wasn't even good while dating. You say you now love her as a sibling not as a wife/lover. So... why did you marry her in the first place? Did you always feel this way or do you think it's because the sex didn't improve but actually got worst that made you lose your feelings for her?


We were very good friends and both wanted kids. When we dated the sex was frequent but not very good. I've had relationships in the past where the sex got better once you learned how to please your partner. But you need to totally open up to them and really be "naked". Not just in body but in spirit as well. She's not comfortable in his own body. There are woman much less attractive than her, that are much sexier. She's never tried to seduce me, talk dirty, masterbate, use sex toys, nothing. Just "hey can we do it" then she goes and lies on the bed and expects me to do all the work. It's like I'm a princess, I don't need to do anything. I've told her what I like. I have NO IDEA what her fantasies are. She won't tell me! Over the years I tried to introduce foods, flavored condoms, toys, nothing lasts more than once or twice. So ya, after 10 years I gave up. If someone won't be intimate with you eventually you shut down as well. So now I'm not being honest with her. Two wrongs don't make a right but that's where we are...

Why I see her as a sibling? I don't want to live with my sister but I'd take a bullet for her. I feel the same way about my wife. More often than not, I'm relieved when she is out of the house. But I had a bad dream a couple years ago in which she fell off a cliff and I woke up instantly in a cold sweat. Also last year she came home extremely late from a day spa trip with some girlfriends. No call or text and phone went straight to voice mail Totally unlike her so I freaked out.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> The tough decision I feel I have to make is do I sacrifice my selfish desires for my kids. What I'm doing right now doesn't feel like cheating on my wife (she drove me to this), but cheating on kids. And they are the most important thing in the world to me. If I don't change something it will end in my #4.


It should feel like cheating on yourself. 

As much as you wish to justify it I highly doubt your wife 'drove' you to cheat. She may have grown to dislike you and even tried to hurt you but I hardly think she ever intended for you to cheat on her. 

That would be like suggesting a person drove a thief to steal their car when they left the keys in the ignition. While it may be a reasonable expectation that it will happen it doesn't mean they tried to make it to happen.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> It should feel like cheating on yourself.


Yes it does.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

My advice is to not do anything too drastic at this point. Stop the affair. Take time to sort out how you want to address the entire situation. There is enormous gravity to whatever decision you make. 

My suggestion would be to perhaps see a professional counsellor to help get some perspective before you make any decisions. As you can see the advice you're getting here is heavily swayed by the personal history of the person commenting. I think an professional will be able to provide more objective advice. 

Best of luck.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Your wife did not drive you to cheating.

Your wife did not make you do anything.

Your wife failed to be a good partner in the marriage. She has some dysfunctions. You brought your own issues to the marriage. You both made a bad sexless marriage.

You both made the marriage what it was at the moment you decided to cheat.

What if you had set a boundary at the very first instant you detected she was checking out or was withholding sex? What if you had set a boundary after the first short while of no sex? What if you had decided the marriage was broken and set a boundary of good progress or else divorce?

YOU could have totally changed the trajectory of your marriage prior to your affair.

YOU chose to stay in a bad marriage. YOU did not have the skills to correct the problems early on.

YOU decided you could not continue without sex, so YOU decided to have the affair. YOU decided every time you met your partner to continue the affair.

YOU and YOUR WIFE walked your marriage to the edge of the cliff. She did not push you off, you decided to jump because you could not bear to be there with her on the precipice.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Cletus said:


> No. Rape is far worse. You seem very committed to seeing that the spouse isn't victimized but chewed other posters out for suggesting you were doing the same thing essentially by creating the possibility of future rape victims.
> 
> You've made your point, you're beating this guy like a rug, and it smacks a little of hypocrisy.
> 
> ...


Accusing her of being responsible for the future actions of a man who victimized her is beyond cruel. By attacking how she chooses to deal with her abuse you're victimizing her once again. She doesn't cause this man to victimize people. She is not responsible for his actions. 

Yes it's commendable if a victim acts to prosecute their attacker but not everyone is capable of doing that. Have some compassion. Direct your anger at the man committing the crime not the person he committed it against. 

The two situations are not at all the same. She's asking a man who did something wrong to confess. You're asking her to take action that may or may not stop someone who did something wrong to her. 

I think you owe her an apology.


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## Sunshine1234 (Aug 20, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> It's hard to fix what was never there. Sadly, your situation is a cautionary tale. Marriage rarely fixes pre-existing issues. And if you don't desire your prospective spouse, move on.


I almost hit the "LIKE" button on this post. It makes sense but the more I thought about it I'm not sure this is true. He said his wife was a pretty woman. I bet she would like a satisfying sex life and I'm sure she is capable. Sounds like she needs to fix her health problem and learn how to be a good partner. If she is attractive and she learned to perform as you would wished, wouldn't that work?


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## Sunshine1234 (Aug 20, 2012)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> I know her well enough that telling her about the affair will not help. I actually don't think it will end in divorce. She would probably just shut down emotionally and then our relationship would become a even greater charade than it is now. Then either I leave, so she can blame me, or we'd separate after the kids are grown.
> 
> She exercises somewhat regularly and is very fit for her age (45). She has the body of a 20-something year old. Again, it's not about lack of physical attractiveness. It doesn't seem like a medical condition to me. But I'm open to exploring all possibilities. Her nipples are SO sensitive that she doesn't allow me to fondle her breasts without her wearing a bra. It doesn't even occur to her any longer that I need to get something out of it too. We can't have intercourse unless she's totally wet and that takes a long time. So just grabbing her or waking her in the middle of the night is a total non-starter. For me, half the excitement (maybe 90% actually) is the spontaneity. The moment it becomes mechanical it sucks. Then if she scolds me "I told you so many times I don't like being touched like that", there is nothing that kills an erection faster.
> 
> At the same time I believe there is something going on with her fixation with porn the last few years we did have sex. I suggested it to help get us (really me) get in the mood. Then she wanted it on every time. Sometimes I'd watch her as she got aroused and noticed it was almost always during couples friendly lesbian sex. I asked her once if she likes girls, and she said definitely not. She said they are just more attractive and sensual then ugly male porn stars. She never wants to watch scenes where they look like "animals". The moment sex was over, if it was a scene with a male actor she thought it was gross and demanded that I turn it off. I don't think she likes girls but what am I to read from that?


Oh my goodness, this woman has hormone issues! You can't touch her breasts and you people live like this? You think/accept this for normal? This woman has an imbalance in her hormones. Send her to a doctor to get all that fixed. She should not be living like that... sheeesh. I had that when I was pregnant and hated that!

As for the porn, she is not a lesbian. I completely understand how she feels. Although the men would be easy on my eyes.  Some of those women are gorgeous. They perfect the woman and make them so sexy. It's something we can all admire. She probably invisions herself looking that way and in her head she pulls some of those same moves.

Based on what you've said I believe your wife has a female condition that can be corrected. Her libido can turn around. After she gets her health in check you can go to sex therapy. If you don't try everything, how are you going to feel if you divorce and then in a year she addresses her health issues and then meets someone else with whom she has a wonderful sex life with?


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

It's going to be unanimous that a sexless marriage doesnt excuse an affair. But your sexless marriage is self inflicted. The introduction of porn...marrying someone you're not attracted to...

This is your mess. 

Against the norm of the board, I'm starting to think a unilaterally imposed sexless marriage is grounds for cheating in rare circumstances. Never thought I'd feel that way until I started living it. But your situation is quite different.


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

Your situation has some parallels to mine. I am in a relatively sexless marriage with kid(s) that evolved that way immediately on the transition to marriage in spite of significant efforts on my part and no clue in advance that I should expect such. I think after marriage, people (men/women thought he sex aspect may be differently expressed on average) drift to what they are more comfortable with. 

Like you, I also surfed here looking for opinions and perspectives. What shocked me is how dogmatic people are here AND they all want things for others as they would want them to work for themselves (check the thread under my name and you will see what I mean). People are all different and you sound like a reasonably introspective guy. I am sure you know your wife far far better than the posters here ... along with what she might and might not prefer. It also seems many comments are made with low reading comprehension and there seems to be a bias that the guy is going something to deserve being sexually tortured. Why the latter may often happen, it is *not* always the case. 

I had a situation like yours for just a sex outlet for survival. BUT I was careless and got caught. Getting caught was a result of an attitude on my part that I should not hide it too much in case she really wanted to know. I had warned her that I could not live like this long term and she ignored every plead to work to change and was otherwise happy. I was not happy and it was causing me physical problems even due to stress resulting. To my surprise she did eventually look and found out. That was likely a BIG mistake since now I have to address a maybe intractable problem now made worse. She does not want a divorce, is happy the way things are, but does not want me to have any outlet either. So you could say I am a prisoner of sorts. 

Another thing for you to consider is you should be very careful about getting caught if you want to stay as things are so your kids grow up reasonably balanced in their formative years. I'm sure I will be flamed for saying this too. Sex is one aspect of life. You cannot always have all things at all times. Infidelity may well be appropriate in some extreme cases. Sure it is not optimal, but perhaps in some case the lesser of evils. You may well be in such a situation. 

Finally, for me, I wish I had discussed with my wife having an open relationship (perhaps in a choice of fixing it, open marriage, or divorce) and I may well do that in time (not good phase now for me). That would remove ethical quandaries and you could make clear that the bounds are only for physical relief. You may wish to consider such. You would need to be prepared to go both ways in that though and I suspect most women are less likely to take a purely physical outlook in such if they did act on it.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

Who knows what the answer is? I'm a woman currently in a sexless marriage and I've caved in to an affair. The OP has my sympathies.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

I could never give _carte blanche_ to cheating within the bounds of a married relationship. IMO, you only have three viable choices, and one of them, I just can't really bring myself to embrace:


If possible, fastly get into joint marriage, sexual counseling and work hard at getting this situation resolved.
Jointly agree that it was a bad marriage from the start and work at getting an amicable divorce through your states "no-fault" divorce laws.
If the preservation of the marriage is the your only option, then she will have to sign off and give her blessings to you on allowing you to see other women in order to meet your basic sexual needs.

I cannot give any creedence to Option No. 3, for obvious moral and religious reasons. But if Option No. 1 cannot, in any way work, then the amicable divorce option may be your only true recourse!


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

not_bubba said:


> That was likely a BIG mistake since now I have to address a maybe intractable problem now made worse. She does not want a divorce, is happy the way things are, but does not want me to have any outlet either. So you could say I am a prisoner of sorts.


I think you made a huge mistake. And I'm not talking about the cheating. While I don't condone it, I understand the reasoning. But then when you got caught you threw out the reasoning and caved to your wife. She wants to enforce celibacy on you and that is just wrong. When she says she's happy the way things are, I assume you mean that she's still not having sex with you. I would think that once everything is out in the open the choices you give her are either she puts out, or you continue getting it elsewhere, divorce or not. Because forcing you to be celibate is clearly abusive.

Question: do you often respond this way to your wife? And do you think it's possible that your weak response is why she doesn't have sex with you in the first place?


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## not_bubba (Feb 9, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think you made a huge mistake. And I'm not talking about the cheating. While I don't condone it, I understand the reasoning. But then when you got caught you threw out the reasoning and caved to your wife. She wants to enforce celibacy on you and that is just wrong. When she says she's happy the way things are, I assume you mean that she's still not having sex with you. I would think that once everything is out in the open the choices you give her are either she puts out, or you continue getting it elsewhere, divorce or not. Because forcing you to be celibate is clearly abusive.


You are mostly right and I think she would "put out" given the hard choice of divorce and losing her otherwise comfortable situation. And I agree that forced celibacy on a spouse is abuse ... whether it is intended to be such (think common to punish guys this way from what I read) or not (guess in my case this is so ... she is just very low drive). This is especially true when there are big unanticipated changes being made (such as on marriage). 

BUT there is another issue. Do you really want an unwilling spouse putting out just so you stay married? At that level things are not much different than masturbation. That strikes me as not so appealing. I like to please my partner. Ironically, my wife has no issues in liking the act as it has been/is (very infrequent) but that would have likely changed with the issue forced since she is not the type to like things imposed and does not hide sentiments. 



WorkingOnMe said:


> Question: do you often respond this way to your wife? And do you think it's possible that your weak response is why she doesn't have sex with you in the first place?


Could be. Though things were not different before and after marriage to trigger such a change. I probably always cater to her too much and she just started doing what she wanted with the official contract  Generally speaking though, many women clearly like more alpha-dog type guys. It is probably something wired in biologically via evolution and survival of offspring in more primitive conditions. While not being pushy and catering her too much, I am not otherwise that un-macho though. Like you (guess from your pic), I mountain climb and many other such things in more extreme ranges (like climbing vertical multi-pitch ice etc). She does not partake in any such things, and would probably die of a heart attack on things that I would not feel any stress over. 

Nevertheless, reading these discussions has given me some good ideas in how to better address things in the near future without cheating again which I fully agree is a not so good approach. But people are all so different one must be careful about applying logic of others to our own situations.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I understand your point, and I agree that it's no fun to have a wife who is having sex just to stop you from divorce. I guess my intent would be to make her be the one to choose whether she wants to be part of a real (sexual) marriage or if she wants to delegate the sexual part of the marriage to someone else. Either way it has to be clear that door C (forced celibacy) is simply not one of the choices on the table. Sex is either important to her or it is not. If it is, then she should be having sex with you. If it is not important, then she shouldn't care where you get it. But if she's lurking behind door C, that is, if it is important but she just doesn't want you to have it, well that's a boundary issue. That's giving her too much control over your basic self.

So I'm not talking about forcing anything, other than forcing her to make a choice from the available choices. And controlling (through your boundaries) what those choices are.

Now I forget who said this....maybe it was Hicks....but someone said that a wife needs to feel safe having sex with you, and she needs to feel unsafe not having sex with you.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Shouldn't have gotten married to begin with but can't put that milk back in the carton. No idea why people go into a dysfunctional marriage/relationship with eyes wide open. If she pulled a bait & switch I could understand but you knew you weren't sexually compatable or satisfied with her yet you married her anyway. Which makes it hard for me to feel much sympathy for you. Sexless or not. 

Do both of yourselves a favor and divorce before she and your kids find out. Believe me they'll lose considerable respect for you if and when they do. Especially since you have a mistress who you have no idea what she'll do. 

You're in an unsatisfying sexual marriage and it's not going to get any better. You're either just going to be sexless and miserable or cheat again and be a bit less miserable. At least do right by your wife and divorce her if you're not going to be honest with her. Because all you're doing right now is screwing her over.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

No.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

ClimbingTheWalls said:


> Who knows what the answer is? I'm a woman currently in a sexless marriage and I've caved in to an affair. The OP has my sympathies.


I'm curious. I've seen your posts. Why don't you divorce? You are in a sexless marriage because you choose to be in a sexless marriage. Does your husband know you are having sex with another man? You've stated that you are good friends with your husband so I wonder why you don't divorce ....

I'm also in a sexless marriage. I am not attracted to my now morbidly obese wife. I do have children so that is a dilemma for me. My wife and I are merely roommates. I would by lying if I told you I hadn't considered an affair ... but the ramifications are just too terrible. My wife has faults but she doesn't deserve that. I get by but there is no doubt that a big part of me is missing. Sex ... or more appropriately, intimacy ... is VERY important to me. It's not easy. I'm choosing in the meantime to help her ... putting her through school for a midlife career change and trying everything I can to help her lose the weight.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I'm curious. I've seen your posts. Why don't you divorce? You are in a sexless marriage because you choose to be in a sexless marriage. Does your husband know you are having sex with another man? You've stated that you are good friends with your husband so I wonder why you don't divorce ....
> 
> I'm also in a sexless marriage. I am not attracted to my now morbidly obese wife. I do have children so that is a dilemma for me. My wife and I are merely roommates. I would by lying if I told you I hadn't considered an affair ... but the ramifications are just too terrible. My wife has faults but she doesn't deserve that. I get by but there is no doubt that a big part of me is missing. Sex ... or more appropriately, intimacy ... is VERY important to me. It's not easy. I'm choosing in the meantime to help her ... putting her through school for a midlife career change and trying everything I can to help her lose the weight.


Well, a discussion about divorce will be had. It's just that my husband is currently dealing with some very big issues at work. I am pretty sure he will be upset and now is a really, really bad time to be telling him and adding to his stress levels.

So I am keeping quiet for the time being and in a couple of months we will address the issue together.

For all I know he may want to consider option B from WorkingOnMe's post above.


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## OrangeCrush (Sep 12, 2012)

Jasel said:


> Do both of yourselves a favor and divorce before she and your kids find out. Believe me they'll lose considerable respect for you if and when they do. *Especially since you have a mistress who you have no idea what she'll do. *


whatever your mistress has in store for you after you tell her you're leaving...it won't be pretty. why? because the vast majority of emotionally healthy, stable 25-year olds are not attracted to 40+ year old liars with a wife and kids. 

you think the fact that she called you and wanted you back after she found out about your lies and double life is all because you're such a god in bed? ha. no. it's most likely because she has attachment issues and is not well balanced mentally/emotionally. so who knows what she will do to you if/when you break it off. whatever it is, you deserve it.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

To be honest it really sort of is. I feel that is the one exception people give to cheating, because once you think about your self being in a sexless marriage and for some reason you are unwilling to divorce, the idea of getting some on the side seems really appealing.

However, me personally id rather divorce the person who is not giving me sex in the sexless marriage rather than cheat. If i get caught cheating, she can use that as ammo against me.

I think cheating is horrible when two people agree on a monogamous relationship. BUT I can totally understand why someone would cheat in a marriage that is sexless and when their (reasonable) needs are not met.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Goldmember357 said:


> To be honest it really sort of is. I feel that is the one exception people give to cheating, because once you think about your self being in a sexless marriage and for some reason you are unwilling to divorce, the idea of getting some on the side seems really appealing.
> 
> However, me personally id rather divorce the person who is not giving me sex in the sexless marriage rather than cheat. If i get caught cheating, she can use that as ammo against me.
> 
> I think cheating is horrible when two people agree on a monogamous relationship. BUT I can totally understand why someone would cheat in a marriage that is sexless and when their (reasonable) needs are not met.


Sorry, I can't agree to this. To be honest, it really sort of isn't. There are a number of positive choices you can make to improve your marriage without resorting to cheating. Find out why your marriage is sexless and put your energy into solving those problems. Cheating is breaking your vows no matter what reason you use to justify it. 

My marriage is sexless. My wife has become morbidly obese and that combined with a lot of other problems makes her very unattractive to me. It does not bother her a whole lot except for the loss of an emotional connection associated with it. She is LD. I am HD and it bothers me considerably. There is a huge hole in my life. I miss the physical act, the primal urges, the wanting and the being wanted ... but more than that I miss the intimacy. The intimacy is the hardest thing to do without.

Now, I could have an affair. Even at 45, I'm fit and reasonably attractive and have had opportunities without an ounce of effort even with them knowing I'm married. I also have children. What kind of message would I be sending to my daughters if I had an affair? I am in a lot of ways their first male relationship. My oldest daughter has a sign on her wall that says: "I have found my prince and I call him daddy." My role in their lives is to prepare them for adulthood and that includes setting the example. Not only would it hurt our relationship and their trust but it would probably influence their relationships when they become adults. In twenty years their BS might be posting here or they may be posting here having picked a man like their father. How could I do that and consider myself a good father. Could I live with their mother telling them constantly that I'm broken, lost or a bad person? Their father, the leader of the family? All so I could fulfill my sexual urges. 

If I don't have kids then what's keeping me in the marriage? We are roommates. Get a divorce. In the long run, if I feel I have exhausted all my options then staying in the relationship isn't helping anybody. 

I could have a ONS and never get caught but that isn't how it works. A ONS becomes another and then another ... because the reason that I wanted the ONS doesn't go away. Eventually suspicions will rise and I will be caught. I could find a friends with benefits situation but what happens if one or both of us becomes emotionally connected to the other? That is more than likely over time. I would be fooling myself ... any OW who would have a relationship with me knowing I am married would not meet the criteria I have for a long term relationship except that she has a vag!na. Likely that will also get caught and then I will have destroyed my family when I could have simply gotten a divorce in the first place. The OW may also have a husband so I will have destroyed two families for my sexual desires. What about my wife who trusts me? Does she deserve that level of betrayal because after all, I am the one that is not wanting to have sex with her. For all that we've been through, why does she deserve the utter heartbreak of learning I'm not the man she thought I was and our marriage was a lie? If I care about her one bit, I will not put her through that.

What if she decides that she needs more and has an affair? That would crush me for a number of reasons. Among those reasons, aside from the obvious "she had another man's c&ck inside her" and all the lies and deceit, the emasculation, humiliation and disrespect, is that 1) she had never once wanted to have a serious discussion about WHY we don't have sex, and 2) I am not attracted to her because of her weight, something she has control over; why would she put effort into an affair before she would put effort into making positive changes to improve our sex life or any other aspect of our relationship? She has a menu of good healthy positive choices she could make to improve our marriage but instead she skipped the entree and chose an affair from the dessert menu; choosing to destroy our marriage, utterly and completely instead of improving it. Why do I deserve that? 

If I don't deserve her cheating on me then on what planet does she deserve me cheating on her?

No, I don't know how my sexless marriage is going to turn out but I'm going to work on it. I deserve it, she deserves it, my kids deserve it. I don't want to live the rest of my days without sex but I will turn to divorce before I turn to cheating.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> No.


echo


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Sorry, I can't agree to this. To be honest, it really sort of isn't. There are a number of positive choices you can make to improve your marriage without resorting to cheating. Find out why your marriage is sexless and put your energy into solving those problems. Cheating is breaking your vows no matter what reason you use to justify it.
> 
> My marriage is sexless. It is largely my choice. My wife has become morbidly obese and that combined with a lot of other problems makes her very unattractive to me. It does not bother her a whole lot except for the loss of an emotional connection associated with it. She is LD. I am HD and it bothers me considerably. There is a huge hole in my life. I miss the physical act, the primal urges, the wanting and the being wanted ... but more than that I miss the intimacy. The intimacy is the hardest thing to do without.
> 
> ...


With all due respect you are in a sexless marriage because you dont find your wife attractive. Some of us are there because WE have had the decision made for US. By the time you get to the point of even considering cheating on your wife I can assure you, all rational thought, dialogue, begging, pleading, 180's, 360's, 720's, books, audio books, etc have been tried. 

We're all different people in different situations. Our unique lives shaped our decisions. My life compels me to remain in this hell because I chose to bring kids in this world and will never be a part time father to them..ever. It's okay for some but not for mine. They need me here. So here I will remain. Leaving is out of the question.

Avoiding sex with your partner is the betrayal. That effectively breaks the bond and covenant you made to God and your partner on the day of marriage. What you're left with is a business arrangement. A shell of what once was. I've come to grips with that. But If I ever choose to "stray" my conscious is clear. A grown adult who understands consequences needs to understand that witholding sex results in a partner cheating. Just like the cheating partner needs to understand that the consequence of cheating is likely divorce. Sucks all around but such is life in a sexless existence.


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## Erin143 (Feb 12, 2013)

Man you need to come clean and get a divorce. You need to get away from your half your age mistress too, can't imagine your daughter going to take to kindly to that news... Sounds like a stalker friend, that's her age give or take. You got yourself in a mess man, yes sex is important to marriage but you just blew it up, it was damaged from the very begininning before you got married whyd you do it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

sinnister said:


> With all due respect you are in a sexless marriage because you dont find your wife attractive. Some of us are there because WE have had the decision made for US.
> 
> *No, that is the reason I don't have sex with her now. What I didn't mention is the 3 and half years I went without sex because she didn't want to. I have experience on both sides of the fence. With all due respect. I understand the pain, anger and resentment. I have wasted away what should have been the best years of my sex life. While I'm busting my a$$ trying to make a home and a future for my family she sits on her a$$ withholding intimacy from me while everyone I know is having sex once, twice to every day of the week. I understand the feeling.
> 
> ...


Go Eagles!


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

UPDATE: A lot has happened in the past three months and things have gotten considerably more messed up. It started in early March when my wife stumbled on some photos on my computer that a girl had sent me. I was getting careless about hiding stuff and at some subconscious level, I think I wanted her to find them. She asked me who she was and I told her the truth, just a girl I flirted with but did nothing else. She got upset and made some comments like "I can't trust you anymore" and "Just go out at night and do whatever you want..." But no tears, almost no emotion except robotic anger. Within an hour she pretended like nothing had even happened - it really pissed me off. I viewed it as an opportunity to confess and come clean, but she refused to talk about it any further, even though I tried repeatedly. So then I decided I WAS going to "do whatever I wanted"...

She and the kids were leaving the country for 3 weeks to visit her family. I told my mistress I was leaving my wife, was going to start seeing other women, and I ended our sexual relationship - though we still confide with each other. I rented an apartment and started preparing to move out during that time. I opened up an online dating account, excluded on my profile that I was married with kids, and started messaging women. I went on about a dozen dates while they were gone. But I couldn't bring myself to actually move out. It seemed like an awful thing to write a Dear Jane note and leave while my wife was away. I felt I had to at least tell her why I was so frustrated and allow an opportunity for us to work on saving the marriage.

To make matters worse I met someone online I really connected with. With my mistress it was safe because I had no emotional attachment and for me it was just sex. If I left my wife, it would not have been for her. But now I met someone who I really liked and she also fell for me hard. We both knew within minutes of meeting we had amazing chemistry. After our second date she messaged me "Best date ever...", "You wow me in the most amazing way possible...", "I thought there were no gentlemen left until I met you..." But it was all based on a lie. Although I was infatuated with her, I felt disgusted with myself. After our third date, I came clean and told her I was married with kids. She was furious and heart broken and of course said she never wanted to see me again.

I knew I couldn't do this any longer, and within a few days of my wife returning, I came clean and confessed EVERYTHING. I told her about my prior mistress, the latest affair, all the dates I had gone on, and even showed her my online dating profile - and every email and text message I sent. She finally showed some emotion and cried. I told her that I just couldn't stay in a sexless marriage any longer so I strayed. I even showed her this thread. Again I was astounded by how she reacted. She told me she didn't know if she could ever trust me again, wasn't forgiving what I did, but understood why I did it. She said she wanted to go to therapy and work on the marriage. She said that she didn't know if she could change her sexual ways but she was going to try. I was stunned and amazed. What more could I possibly ask for. We did it that night and the next 3 nights. That is easily the most sex we've ever had...

But here we are nearly a month later. We've only been to one therapy session. We've also only had sex one more time. I won't say we've fallen back into a routine but real life makes it so damn hard to keep up the momentum. I had to travel for work, she got sick, it took a while to find a therapist, and he was slow to schedule us again and then he postponed this week...

Meanwhile it's not over with the new OW. After I confessed she sent me some angry texts over the next few days. She already had trust issues and what I did was only going to make that worse. I continued texting her because I wanted to tell her what a wonderful person she was and reassure her that she would meet someone else. Several times over the next couple weeks we texted sporadically, always ending with a good luck goodbye. But a few days would pass and someone would initiate contact again. We finally agreed to talk on the phone last Tuesday and what else can I say but I saw her this past Friday and Sunday. I know I should end all contact if there is any hope to save my marriage but I can't. My wife doesn't know of course and thinks its over.

Just writing this has put in perspective what a god awful mess I've created...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

What the effing eff are you doing?!?!?! Give your head and your whanger a shake and smarten the hell up. Either end it once and for all with every OW, forever, or get a divorce.

You, my friend, need some heavy duty head shrinking.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You know it's not going to get better. You really REALLY need to leave your wife. Free her and yourself to find someone you each are compatible with.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> What the effing eff are you doing?!?!?! Give your head and your whanger a shake and smarten the hell up. Either end it once and for all with every OW, forever, or get a divorce.
> 
> You, my friend, need some heavy duty head shrinking.


Yes! Absolutely, 1000% agree! Get your head out of your @$$ and let your poor wife go. She'd be better off.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

So you feel justified in stringing all these women along? Karma is gonna hurt.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Wow. Just wow. You really come off as a purely self-entitled person. Matter of fact, the only advice I have to give you is let your wife go. You don't love her. You don't even like her. You're there because it's comfy and secure and with the life you wanna live, you need just that little bit of security to hang onto. Go be single, but never put off your shortcomings of infidelity on your wife because there are sexual issues.

If you love your wife you will fight for your marriage and seek help.

Otherwise, all you're looking for from the marriage is someone to be mommy.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> She exercises somewhat regularly and is very fit for her age (45). She has the body of a 20-something year old. Again, it's not about lack of physical attractiveness. It doesn't seem like a medical condition to me. But I'm open to exploring all possibilities. Her nipples are SO sensitive that she doesn't allow me to fondle her breasts without her wearing a bra. *It doesn't even occur to her any longer that I need to get something out of it too. *We can't have intercourse unless she's totally wet and that takes a long time. *So just grabbing her or waking her in the middle of the night is a total non-starter. For me, half the excitement (maybe 90% actually) is the spontaneity. The moment it becomes mechanical it sucks*. Then if she scolds me "*I told you so many times I don't like being touched like that", there is nothing that kills an erection faster.*
> 
> At the same time I believe there is something going on with her fixation with porn the last few years we did have sex. I suggested it to help get us *(really me)* get in the mood. Then she wanted it on every time. Sometimes I'd watch her as she got aroused and noticed it was almost always during couples friendly lesbian sex. I asked her once if she likes girls, and she said definitely not. She said they are just more attractive and sensual then ugly male porn stars. She never wants to watch scenes where they look like "animals". The moment sex was over, if it was a scene with a male actor she thought it was gross and demanded that I turn it off. I don't think she likes girls but what am I to read from that?


I have read this entire thread, including the update and came back to this post.

And, speaking from experience, it seems to me that the problem here is that you just might be a selfish lover, as in only interested in meeting your needs as opposed to your wife's. From the above quoted text, it appears to me that you disregard her feelings (of pleasure or pain) in favor of your own, and the result is that she has "checked out" of the act with you.

You see, I too have sensitive breasts. When *gently* touched and kissed, I love that. I get turned on by that. However, when grabbed and "man handled" it turns me off. I, like your wife, told my husband that many times, however he seems to have forgotten those discussions for future reference. Eventually, I checked out.

Spontaneity is fine, however, for some women a little "playfulness/flirting" etc." sets the mood. She is not a receptacle for you to use when you feel the urge to get off, but a person with feelings who needs to be on the same page as you. To just grab her and start "getting off" on her to meet your needs is selfish.

I'm willing to bet that your relationships with OW have more "play" and flirting than with your wife. While you feel that it is your right to demand sex from your W, the relationships with the OW are different. If you had given your W the same regards as to meeting HER needs as you do these OW, and tuned into your W instead of these OW, you may have had a more intimate relationship with your W.

The crux of the matter is this. Are you now or have you ever considered your wife's needs? Are you open to criticism or are you quick to assume that it's all your wife's fault? Do you care that she too is living in a sexless marriage? She has tried to tell you things which you complain about rather than make an effort to meet her needs? 

Since you are meeting your needs outside of the marriage, perhaps it is time to end the charade and allow your wife the opportunity to decide whether SHE wants to remain in this marriage or whether she too should be able to find someone who listens to her and meets her own needs.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

It's never okay, there is no excuse. Simple isn't it.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Cheating is wrong because it violates an important principle: our trust in marriage as a guarantee of fidelity. However, given that fidelity and exclusivity are central to the purpose of marriage, why isn't cheating against the law? Why are most states no fault?

I haven't read civil marriage ceremony vows but I doubt they make any reference to sex or fidelity. The state is simply unable try and punish people for adultery. Adultery is about as horrible a thing that you can do which is not a crime.

How come people do it all the time? The truth is that marriage is weakened institution. Consumerism and mobility have made divorce much more logical. But divorce is economically costly and destructive to society. Divorce was also considered evil at one time. To be divorced was shame in and of itself. A divorced politician had a harder time getting elected.

Sometimes on TAM I don't think we talk enough about how things are changing. It is easier than ever to meet new partners for adultery with Facebook and mobile telephones. Just consider how easy it is for people exchange numbers and begin an affair.

This does excuse OP from responsibility but let us consider how alone he is to end up discussing his life with strangers on the Internet instead of in a community. Pretty mind boggling.

I am not certain that OP and his wife are sexually incompatible. The biggest problem seems to be that they just don't find each other interesting as people. That is what killed their sex life. The threat OP leaving created a spark of passion that died out less than week.

His wife doesn't love him that much.

The failure to orgasm, is that a matter of technique? He could give her oral while she watch porn but they don't like each other enough to experiment.

Better to divorce.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

CantePe said:


> It's never okay, there is no excuse. Simple isn't it.


I've learned that life is never as simple it seems. I'd have to be an idiot to not understand where your coming from, but I do know that sometimes lack of options coupled with misery create difficult decisions.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Life is full of gray area. It is not just black and white. Every situation and circumstance is different.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NO... but it is OK to make a sexless marriage unsustainable


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I don't believe people who have sexually abandoned their spouses have a right to expect fidelity. You didn't hold up your marital vows and are just as bad as a cheater.

But I think cheating is the wrong road to travel. Refrain not for the sake of your cruel spouse, but for your own sense of personal integrity. And because infidelity just muddies the waters and makes exiting the marriage that much more painful.


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

I liken the cheating spouse issue and much of the reaction to this thread to that of plane crashes. You never hear about the planes that take off and land safely, and there are many. Same with cheating/affairs. It happens all the time, but only the crashes make the news.

In order to minimize the risk of a crash (you can't eliminate it altogether), you gotta have ideal conditions. The best situation is two married people with otherwise happy marriages that lack a certain sexual connection, for whatever reason. They get together a few times a month or whattever, get the sexual release they've been missing, and go home to their spouse and families less edgy and irritable. In a perfect situation, take off and landing are smooth and everyone gets to where they are going.

But there are risks. Emotional attachment or getting caught being the main ones. Even perfectly maintained planes flying in perfect weather can crash. So you minimize those risks by setting limits and expectations early, stay out of public, and make a clean break as soon as one person starts feeling "feelings". 

Of course, anyone in this situation I'm guessing would much rather be connecting intimately, emotionally, sexually with their respective spouse, but in the event where that ship has sailed and one spouse no longer shows that interest, in my humble opinion (I know most will disagree), having an affair where risks can be minimized is not such a horrible sin. If a wife breaks her vow to "have and hold" her husband, hasn't she opened the door to the husband to look elsewhere?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> I liken the cheating spouse issue and much of the reaction to this thread to that of plane crashes. You never hear about the planes that take off and land safely, and there are many. Same with cheating/affairs. It happens all the time, but only the crashes make the news.
> 
> In order to minimize the risk of a crash (you can't eliminate it altogether), you gotta have ideal conditions. The best situation is two married people with otherwise happy marriages that lack a certain sexual connection, for whatever reason. They get together a few times a month or whattever, get the sexual release they've been missing, and go home to their spouse and families less edgy and irritable. In a perfect situation, take off and landing are smooth and everyone gets to where they are going.
> 
> ...


So... I'm guessing by this response that you've chosen to just accept your wife's cheating, allow it to continue, and stay there, waiting for any scraps she's willing to throw you? Or do you have a new girlfriend of your own now?


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Cheating is for the weak willed. There is no excuse for it ever.


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

neither, though if you've read my past posts you would see that neither is outside the realm of possibility.


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

Holland, pretty judgmental and narrow minded. There are about 75 million married couiples in this country, each with a different story. there is no blanket big enough to cover all of them


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> Holland, pretty judgmental and narrow minded. There are about 75 million married couiples in this country, each with a different story. there is no blanket big enough to cover all of them


But if you love your spouse that much, why would it be so hard to have a very real discussion about the dissatisfaction, rather than sneaking around with someone else? 

And, I agree with Holland. There is no excuse for cheating. Ever. If you can work something out, allowing for sexual gratification elsewhere, if you choose to remain in a sexless marriage, fine. But there is no excuse for lying and sneaking out with someone else. Period.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> Holland, pretty judgmental and narrow minded. There are about 75 million married couiples in this country, each with a different story. there is no blanket big enough to cover all of them


Well that's your opinion however I disagree. Cheating is by it's very nature the act of a weak willed person. IMHO the better way forward is to either work out the issues or move on.

Working it out may be done in many ways, have an open marriage, make a clear decision to forgo your sex life or people can work out the problems they have in order to improve the marriage.

Cheating is immoral and wrong. It is lying to your partner and demeaning to the person doing the cheating. Cheating is not the answer to problems.

Fix it or end it.


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

we've had the disussion, many many times, over the course of 3 years, with counselors and privately. sex not important to her, we not 25 anymore, etc etc. other than this we get along fine (lately, since ive basically given up hoping we can ever have the sex life i want), have fun as a family, kids are smart and well behaved. so we sleep in separate rooms so i'm not tempted to touch her and get rejected again, and we live our lives. if i seek intimacy elsewhere, would she have a right to be upset?


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> we've had the disussion, many many times, over the course of 3 years, with counselors and privately. sex not important to her, we not 25 anymore, etc etc. other than this we get along fine (lately, since ive basically given up hoping we can ever have the sex life i want), have fun as a family, kids are smart and well behaved. so we sleep in separate rooms so i'm not tempted to touch her and get rejected again, and we live our lives. * if i seek intimacy elsewhere, would she have a right to be upset*?


This was not the original question though and in no way excuses cheating.

If people have no money is it OK to steal?
If someone hasn't studied hard enough is it OK to cheat on a test?
etc


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> we've had the disussion, many many times, over the course of 3 years, with counselors and privately. sex not important to her, we not 25 anymore, etc etc. other than this we get along fine (lately, since ive basically given up hoping we can ever have the sex life i want), have fun as a family, kids are smart and well behaved. so we sleep in separate rooms so i'm not tempted to touch her and get rejected again, and we live our lives. if i seek intimacy elsewhere, would she have a right to be upset?


Do you have a right to be upset that she is not interested in sex/not as interested in it as you are? If you say yes...then yes, she does have a right to be upset if you seek it elsewhere. If you say no, you don't have a right to be upset then no, she doesn't either. 

I cheated emotionally. So did my husband. We both had the right to be upset (even angry) with each other. 

If you feel that strongly about it, tell her that you can't force her to be intimate (obviously), but sex is important to you, even if it isn't important to her. And if she doesn't want it, then she should have no qualms with you seeking it elsewhere. Don't say it to guilt her into sex, but so she sees how important this aspect of marriage is to you. While I don't think it right, or fair, to withhold sex for any reason, I also don't think it's right to cheat. You can change feelings regarding sex not being that important... you can't undo sticking your penis inside another woman.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> If you feel that strongly about it, tell her that you can't force her to be intimate (obviously), but sex is important to you, even if it isn't important to her. And if she doesn't want it, then she should have no qualms with you seeking it elsewhere. Don't say it to guilt her into sex, but so she sees how important this aspect of marriage is to you. While I don't think it right, or fair, to withhold sex for any reason, I also don't think it's right to cheat. You can change feelings regarding sex not being that important... you can't undo sticking your penis inside another woman.


This argument although logically correct doesn't necessarily work with everyone. Many wives will have a lot of qualms with their husband getting it elsewhere and don't understand why sex is that important to anyone. Yes, one can change feelings regarding sex not being that important but that is not always likely. The scenario of one spouse sneaking off for an occasional tryst is becoming easier and more common it seems.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

There different kinds of cheating. Even TAM recognizes this, unwillingly
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

If you are wanting & willing to cheat & just looking for permission from your wife, then your marriage is over! Get divorced, be friends & still raise your children together. You can't ever have it both ways with 2 "wives", one for companionship & one for sex. What kind of woman would even just want to be a "sex toy".
Cheating is a cowardly act, if you can't fix your issues, then live with it or divorce, there is no door #3.
If you love your wife, you shouldn't want to cheat. If you don't, you're done, so move on. Some of us on here have gone months & years sexless without cheating.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> There different kinds of cheating. Even TAM recognizes this, unwillingly
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Recognizes, yes. Condones? Not a chance. Cheating is never a good answer to anything. I agree with woundedwarrior's assessment.


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> You can't ever have it both ways with 2 "wives", one for companionship & one for sex. What kind of woman would even just want to be a "sex toy".


Oh there are many such women, usually those in the same boat as the men. Stale marriages, no passion or intimacy, husband does nothing but work and has ignored the wife. Couple of kids at home and the family unit is happy, but the spark is gone. ****** ******* is making millions off this concept. 

The original question was "is infidelity OK in a sexless marriage?" I guess to answer in the form of a question - If the marriage has gone sexless, is it still a marriage? Being married and having a marriage can be two separate concepts.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

No sex=No marriage, you can be best friends, companions etc, but it is impossible to achieve emotional closeness without sex, it was designed that way. Even the sexless who stay will admit, although they still love their spouse, they don't feel married anymore. Unless you want your kids growing up accepting this kind of marriage, then end it. You're kidding yourself if you think you can be a happy little family with your wife & have a sex life with someone else. Have you seen "Fatal Attraction"??


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> No sex=No marriage, you can be best friends, companions etc, but it is impossible to achieve emotional closeness without sex, it was designed that way. Even the sexless who stay will admit, although they still love their spouse, they don't feel married anymore. Unless you want your kids growing up accepting this kind of marriage, then end it. You're kidding yourself if you think you can be a happy little family with your wife & have a sex life with someone else. Have you seen "Fatal Attraction"??


Yeah I've seen it. But for every bunny-boiler, there are likely hundreds if not thousands of affairs that end peacefully. See "Plane crashes". 

I know men/husbands and women/wives that are engaged in some kind of extra marital affair under the very same circumstances that are being discussed - stale, passionless marriages, looking for a little excitement on the side to feel alive again. In each case, they say it actually makes the family unit happier because the stress and tension of one spouse not getting sexual needs met is alleviated to a degree. Again, we'd all like those sexual/emotional needs met by our current spouse, but if that's off the table, this is a possible solution. The best solution? Probably not. The only solution. By all means no. But again we are talking about 60-75 million married couples in this country alone, that's 120-150 million married people. The myopic "learn to live without sex or get divorced" theory is not always best for everyone.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> No sex=No marriage, you can be best friends, companions etc, but it is impossible to achieve emotional closeness without sex, it was designed that way. Even the sexless who stay will admit, although they still love their spouse, they don't feel married anymore. Unless you want your kids growing up accepting this kind of marriage, then end it. You're kidding yourself if you think you can be a happy little family with your wife & have a sex life with someone else. Have you seen "Fatal Attraction"??


No sex= no marriage. True for some but No sex does not neccessarily mean not a happy family. Who is to say that having parents that are best friends and living under the same roof is not better for kids than having divorced parents. It's much more complicated than just saying, not having sex, divorce or don't cheat. It is hard to know what is really best for the family unit except perhaps that family.


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> No sex= no marriage. True for some but No sex does not neccessarily mean not a happy family. Who is to say that having parents that are best friends and living under the same roof is not better for kids than having divorced parents. It's much more complicated than just saying, not having sex, divorce or don't cheat. It is hard to know what is really best for the family unit except perhaps that family.


:iagree:


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Get your wife's permission to have a mistress, which I doubt you'll get & have an open relationship & both be happy, which again I doubt will happen, but if you both are good with it then problem solved. It really comes down to having respect, love, morals & values. Not for me or anyone else to tell you how to live?? The main questions answer is fully determined on those elements, if you have them for your wife, then the answer will always be no!!


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## Terry_CO (Oct 23, 2012)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> Is infidelity OK in a sexless marriage?


No.

End the relationship first. Then start a new one  Don't be scum.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Recognizes, yes. Condones? Not a chance. Cheating is never a good answer to anything. I agree with woundedwarrior's assessment.


Woundedwarrior and Maricha, can you not imagine some situation that cheating would be better than doing nothing?



> Condemned to be virgins: The two million women robbed by the war
> By AMANDA CABLE
> Last updated at 23:58 15 September 2007
> 
> ...


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Woundedwarrior and Maricha, can you not imagine some situation that cheating would be better than doing nothing?


In a word... no. Even the example you shared in your post doesn't sway that. Not sure, tbh, the point in using that to back up your position. But still, I say no. Cheating is never an option.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

2dumb2knowbetter said:


> Yeah I've seen it. But for every bunny-boiler, there are likely hundreds if not thousands of affairs that end peacefully. See "Plane crashes".
> 
> I know men/husbands and women/wives that are engaged in some kind of extra marital affair under the very same circumstances that are being discussed - stale, passionless marriages, looking for a little excitement on the side to feel alive again. In each case, they say it actually makes the family unit happier because the stress and tension of one spouse not getting sexual needs met is alleviated to a degree. Again, we'd all like those sexual/emotional needs met by our current spouse, but if that's off the table, this is a possible solution. The best solution? Probably not. The only solution. By all means no. But again we are talking about 60-75 million married couples in this country alone, that's 120-150 million married people. The myopic "learn to live without sex or get divorced" theory is not always best for everyone.


Sorry, but I just can't believe you are justifying cheating over other options. 

You can have sex with other people if your wife/husband agrees to it and doesn't have a problem with it. I would consider that an arrangement, not cheating. If you both agree that sex will not happen in the marriage and there is no way to fix it but you are happy with everything else then discuss it. That's not my bag and I don't think it works in the long run but if you can make it work go for it. Personally I think divorcing and just staying good friends or even living together without marital expectations is a much healthier option. 

Cheating is exactly what the word says it is ... wrong. There is no good cheating. There is no such thing as cheating for the good of the marriage. Cheating means going behind your wife/husband's back without their knowledge and "getting yours." It is by definition a violation. It is weak. It is wrong in so many ways. 

So to answer the question ... is infidelity ok in a sexless marriage? No! 

Your best option is to fix the sexless part of the marriage. If that isn't an option and you are otherwise happy then divorce. You don't HAVE to go your separate ways. You can reap the benefits of being married without marital expectations. If that doesn't suite you then try to make an arrangement. If you aren't going to have sex then talk about an arrangement where you can have sex with others. Like I said, don't think that usually works .. but I guess it does for some.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Totally agree with JSGW.

Cheating by definition is an immoral action. It is a weak action.

If it is just about the sex then have the guts to discuss other options with your spouse. 

A cheater is cheating on many people, their spouse, their kids and themselves. Why would anyone consider such a degrading action to be a good way to go? Stand up, be honest and work out another course of action.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> In a word... no. Even the example you shared in your post doesn't sway that. Not sure, tbh, the point in using that to back up your position. But still, I say no. Cheating is never an option.


In a society where divorce is not possible is cheating ok?

Suppose someone discovers their spouse of 7 years has gambled away their life savings and ruined them, so that they don't even have enough money for divorce, should they care about cheating then?

What is someone is the caregiver for a spouse with an incurable illness. They may love their spouse but need sex and affection to survive. Telling the ill spouse that you are divorcing them so that they can die alone, is that kind?

If someone's spouse disappears, what then? Gone for 3 months with no or little explanation, why does the person have to wait for a divorce?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

I reiterate, LongWalk, NO EXCUSE for cheating. NONE. Is that clear enough?


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

These justifications are getting plain ridiculous. If you can cheat & live with yourself then go for it. Criminals can explain away all day why they raped & stole too, they were horny & needed money?
Get divorced & just live together to raise your kids, they already see you sleeping separately, so their view of a marriage is already warped. Do this & you can have worry free sex with whoever you want. This is my last say on this insane subject.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Is infidelity OK in a sexless marriage? is the start of thread. Are you angry that at the person who started the discussion?

You didn't address any of the examples. That suggests you don't have a good argument.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Is infidelity OK in a sexless marriage? is the start of thread. Are you angry that at the person who started the discussion?
> 
> You didn't address any of the examples. That suggests you don't have a good argument.


So, because someone says *NO, there is no good excuse for cheating*, it automatically means they don't have a good argument? Or is it because each point was not addressed separately? Fine, I'll address each of the examples separately.



LongWalk said:


> In a society where divorce is not possible is cheating ok? *NO*
> 
> Suppose someone discovers their spouse of 7 years has gambled away their life savings and ruined them, so that they don't even have enough money for divorce, should they care about cheating then? *NO*
> 
> ...


Yea, I know. Some don't see things as black and white. I do. Cheating is wrong, no matter what color glasses you try to look through.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

I admit I'm probably the wrong person to comment, I was cheated on by my first wife during a seemingly happy 8 year marriage. Caught her with a mutual friend, we divorced a few months later, that was my "deal breaker" from day one, she knew it & chose it.
The main question "Is infidelity okay in a sexless marriage"? is strictly a moral issue decided by the person asking. If they get permission, then it's not cheating or a marriage and if they don't, then it is cowardice & malicious.
Sexless marriages are a free choice. You either fix them, put up with them or end them. Marriage is not husband+wife+sex partner & no matter the reasons it never will be. Any wrong doing can be justified in a persons mind but that doesn't make it okay.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

WW, what about the scenarios outlined?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> I admit I'm probably the wrong person to comment, I was cheated on by my first wife during a seemingly happy 8 year marriage. Caught her with a mutual friend, we divorced a few months later, that was my "deal breaker" from day one, she knew it & chose it.
> The main question "Is infidelity okay in a sexless marriage"? is strictly a moral issue decided by the person asking. If they get permission, then it's not cheating or a marriage and if they don't, then it is cowardice & malicious.
> Sexless marriages are a free choice. You either fix them, put up with them or end them. Marriage is not husband+wife+sex partner & no matter the reasons it never will be. Any wrong doing can be justified in a persons mind but that doesn't make it okay.


Did you say it's not a marriage if someone has permission to sleep with others?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Duh? Apparently a traditional marriage doesn't exist anymore to some of you, so create a warped hybrid version & have at it. Your success rate will be low. I guess stealing is okay too, given the right circumstances? This even being a question is sad.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

There was a story on TAM over a year ago.. maybe longer. The wife allowed her husband to have affairs because she was so LD. It went on for a year or so if I remember right. The wife didn't like it, but it was better for her to let him have his affairs so she wouldn't have to D. It eventually started to cause depression.

As it turned out, she had some medical issues that caused the low libido. Surgery or something. I don't know what happened after that. She was a SAHM and probably couldn't take care of herself Financially. I don't think she really had a choice to leave.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Traditional marriage exists but there are those who would change it.

As same sex marriage becomes legal, traditional marriages must become weaker. If people get children more and more through IVF, surrogate mothers in India and developing world adoptions, then marriage must decline.

If it becomes possible for men to DNA test their children, marriage must become weaker, since some of them will discover truths that could not easily be known in the past.

If men stay home to care for children while their wives work, marriage must weaken, as women are not attracted to househusbands.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> If it becomes possible for men to DNA test their children, marriage must become weaker, since some of them will discover truths that could not easily be known in the past.


If I remember right, the NHANES survey already showed that roughly 1 in 6 children today was fathered by someone other than the man they believe to be Dad.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

OP hasn't logged on since 5/15. He's already gotten his info and made his choice. Hopefully, he took a more manly route and actually left his wife before burdening someone else with his crap.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> If I remember right, the NHANES survey already showed that roughly 1 in 6 children today was fathered by someone other than the man they believe to be Dad.


1 in 6, you say? Huh. Guess that means either one of my sisters or I have lied to the dads. (That's 6 kids total, btw) I have 3, one sister has 2, and the other has 1. And all six are the children of the men they call Dad. Same with my friends and their kids. Guess I'm just picky about my friends, eh?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> 1 in 6, you say? Huh. Guess that means either one of my sisters or I have lied to the dads. (That's 6 kids total, btw) I have 3, one sister has 2, and the other has 1. And all six are the children of the men they call Dad. Same with my friends and their kids. Guess I'm just picky about my friends, eh?


Either that, or some of your friends are lying to you - which is what I'm sure lots of those 1 in 6 were told too. Because you can't fool a genetic test.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Either that, or some of your friends are lying to you - which is what I'm sure lots of those 1 in 6 were told too. Because you can't fool a genetic test.


Uhhh I can honestly say that not one of us (specifically my sisters and myself) ever had sex with ANYONE other than our spouses. IOW, My husband IS my kids' dad... my nieces and nephew ARE the biological children of the men they call dad. There's 6 kids right there who are, in FACT the biological children of the men they call Dad.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> 1 in 6, you say? Huh. Guess that means either one of my sisters or I have lied to the dads. (That's 6 kids total, btw) I have 3, one sister has 2, and the other has 1. And all six are the children of the men they call Dad. Same with my friends and their kids. Guess I'm just picky about my friends, eh?


Ha! Well, I found out just a couple of years ago that my dad is not my biological father ... after over 40 years. Happened before my parents were married and I was born 6 months after they were married ... and I thought my parents were ultra moral christian people.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Ha! Well, I found out just a couple of years ago that my dad is not my biological father ... after over 40 years. Happened before my parents were married and I was born 6 months after they were married ... and I thought my mom was this old fashioned ultra moral christian person.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Uhhh I can honestly say that not one of us (specifically my sisters and myself) ever had sex with ANYONE other than our spouses. IOW, My husband IS my kids' dad... my nieces and nephew ARE the biological children of the men they call dad. There's 6 kids right there who are, in FACT the biological children of the men they call Dad.


I'm not questioning you or your family.

You know what? I don't know anyone who admits that their child's father isn't as claimed either, but the genetics don't lie. SOMEONE is doing it. The numbers are highly sensitive to demographic - the rate among your particular cohort is probably more like 1-2%.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> I'm not questioning you or your family.
> 
> You know what? I don't know anyone who admits that their child's father isn't as claimed either, but the genetics don't lie. SOMEONE is doing it. The numbers are highly sensitive to demographic - the rate among your particular cohort is probably more like 1-2%.


I don't doubt that it's true. I'm just saying that I can name at least 6 kids off the top of my head who would, if put in one group of 6, debunk the 1 in 6 position. Maybe a different set of six would support it. Just saying that it's not foolproof.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Cletus said:


> If I remember right, the NHANES survey already showed that roughly 1 in 6 children today was fathered by someone other than the man they believe to be Dad.


Do you have a link to the study. Shows cheating is very wide spread.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Do you have a link to the study. Shows cheating is very wide spread.


Sadly, I don't. It came from a conversation I had with a family member who is a research psychologist and who has access to academic citations that I don't. 

I know "take my word for it" is unsatisfactory, but he's credible, and I don't have a direct link. A little googling does turn up other studies, some with much higher rates and some with much lower rates, depending on the sample population. The 1 in 6 number was for the entire NHANES genetic study, which is large.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> I don't doubt that it's true. I'm just saying that I can name at least 6 kids off the top of my head who would, if put in one group of 6, debunk the 1 in 6 position. Maybe a different set of six would support it. Just saying that it's not foolproof.


Your family is not a scientific sample. I have two children, one has a birth defect. That does not mean 50% of all children suffer the defect.

It is fine for you to believe that all cheating is wrong and I am sure that many people who cheat also believe it is wrong. However, they are hypocrites. It is important to recognize that cheating is not an absolute moral decision.

Killing someone is generally wrong. When it's unlawful we call it murder or manslaughter. When a policeman kills someone in the line of work, it is just defense of the public. But what if a policeman enjoys beating people that he has to arrest, simply as an expression of sadism. Is that morally right? I think not. 

I think there is a woman somewhere who is married to a sadistic policeman and is scared shı†less by him because she knows that he could mistreat her in an instant. She may not have the courage to divorce or even dare to think about it to herself. She could fall into affair as part of the realization that her marriage was wrong.

Just saying the world is not so black and white.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Sadly, I don't. It came from a conversation I had with a family member who is a research psychologist and who has access to academic citations that I don't.
> 
> I know "take my word for it" is unsatisfactory, but he's credible, and I don't have a direct link. A little googling does turn up other studies, some with much higher rates and some with much lower rates, depending on the sample population. The 1 in 6 number was for the entire NHANES genetic study, which is large.


I looked at the site but could not find the study. Need to google a while and search it down. But never mind, I'll consider it maybe true.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Your family is not a scientific sample. I have two children, one has a birth defect. That does not mean 50% of all children suffer the defect.


But then, neither would my friends... but they could easily be added into the study. I did say that those I know well, my friends, could be added into a group with me and I would be confident that they got the dad right each time. I believe I did say that the concept may be true, but it just doesn't hold true for my own experience. Oh, one question I had about that study...that, I assume, does not take into account the men who choose to adopt/accept parental responsibility, knowing that the child is not theirs, does it? If it adds those to the "It's not my kid genetically" camp, then yea, I can see that very easily.



LongWalk said:


> It is fine for you to believe that all cheating is wrong and I am sure that many people who cheat also believe it is wrong. However, they are hypocrites. It is important to recognize that cheating is not an absolute moral decision.


Do you include those who HAVE cheated, and have stopped, reconciled with spouses, etc. in what you are saying regarding cheaters? Do you think those who DID and STOPPED are still hypocrites if they say it is wrong? And, what of those who know all along that what they are doing is wrong, but do it anyway... and still say it is wrong? How does that make them hypocrites? And, I still completely disagree. Cheating IS an absolute moral decision. Just because someone calls a pineapple a banana doesn't make it so. Likewise, trying to rationalize cheating for ANY reason (no matter what it is), doesn't make it morally right.



LongWalk said:


> Killing someone is generally wrong. When it's unlawful we call it murder or manslaughter. When a policeman kills someone in the line of work, it is just defense of the public. But what if a policeman enjoys beating people that he has to arrest, simply as an expression of sadism. Is that morally right? I think not.


This is one I do have an issue with. However, I believe many police officers try to AVOID killing anyone. That's where the difference lies. As for beating someone to a bloody pulp.... no, it is not morally right. There is no reason to do such a thing.



LongWalk said:


> I think there is a woman somewhere who is married to a sadistic policeman and is scared shı†less by him because she knows that he could mistreat her in an instant. She may not have the courage to divorce or even dare to think about it to herself. She could fall into affair as part of the realization that her marriage was wrong.


Right. She's likely to cheat on the man she is so deathly afraid of? I highly doubt it, but I could be wrong about her. However, I still say it is morally wrong for her to cheat, if she takes that road. His actions are wrong as well. It still doesn't give her, or anyone else, license to cheat on the spouse.



LongWalk said:


> Just saying the world is not so black and white.


To you, maybe. But not to everyone.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Cheating is by its very definition an immoral act. There is no ambiguity. In this case, it is very black and white. In all of these examples, the person has choices. Cheating is the choice of a weak person. A person who chooses to cheat is weak because in many cases, it is EASIER than the other options. The choice to cheat is immoral no matter how you try to justify because in all cases there is at least one other choice ... and that is not to cheat.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Cheating is by its very definition an immoral act. There is no ambiguity. In this case, it is very black and white. In all of these examples, the person has choices. Cheating is the choice of a weak person. A person who chooses to cheat is weak because in many cases, it is EASIER than the other options. The choice to cheat is immoral no matter how you try to justify because in all cases there is at least one other choice ... and that is not to cheat.


Theft and prostitution are immoral. But what if you're in a country freshly ruined by war and there are no jobs. Your children are hungry, would you refuse an opportunity to score a sack of potatoes from the back of an unguarded truck.


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## CreekWalker (May 31, 2013)

My husband's affair...and abandonment...and even his return and sudden discarding of the other woman...changed me for life.

I'm a different person than I used to be. I'm a lot more self-serving, which I never was. I believe in me more and him less. I know I grew as a person. But I grew at the expense of my marriage to this man. 

I often wish I had never known about it. That he might have just woken up from his mental funk and been better and I had never known. I don't feel married in the same way I did before. Like...I don't owe him what I did once. I met the woman twice. She was...not as hot as me. Not as anything as me. And now...all those years of trying to be hot...trying to dress like he likes lol...I wear chucks and I've let my hair grow out so long it's almost silly...because I like it. 

I go on trips without him. And I see him for what he is and I don't make excuses to myself or our kids. I love him and adore him and yet...it's not the same. 

What cheating men don't realize is how often their wives get hit on and choose not to imbibe. How easy it is for women. Don't put her in a position where she's wondering...if what was good for the goose is good for the gander.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Well said CW. Do you ever tell him about the men who hit on you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CreekWalker (May 31, 2013)

He knows about some of them. I have had to defriend HIS friends because of it here and there. 

It was a major issue at one job I had. It was an admin. job but I met a lot of people. 

Maybe that's why he affaired down so much? I dunno. When I saw his affair partner up close...I almost divorced him on the spot. I couldn't believe it. 

I'm pretty cute (o: It only took me my whole life to lay claim to that.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

There's a lot to be said for monogamy, but given that our lives are longer than those of wild animals, it is a challenge. When someone affairs down there are many potential explanations. One is that they don't want a real competitor to their spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Either that, or some of your friends are lying to you - which is what I'm sure lots of those 1 in 6 were told too. Because you can't fool a genetic test.


Men's Health magazine had an article about 3 years ago in which they quoted some infidelity and paternity studies. They didn't do the studies, they were reporting on supposedly valid large academic studies.

They quoted I think closer to 1 in 8 as being false paternity. But that was not the fascinating part.

There was a higher chance of false paternity in families with a larger number of children, _all of whom were presumed to be fathered by the husband_. To rephrase that a bit, in families with a married couple with a bunch of kids (4, 5, 6, 7+ kids) whom everyone believes belong to the husband, there is a higher chance one of the kids is not his compared to families with fewer children.

Think about that. Who are those families? Longer term marriages. Lots of kids. First marriage for both spouses (thus no prior history of cheating in a marriage by one or both of them). Probably tending more towards being religiously conservative Catholic, Mormon, Christian families. These are not the unmarried welfare moms in the inner city with multiple kids from multiple fathers. I might suppose these families are generally middle class income and higher, though the article did not make that claim.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Biology in action


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Theft and prostitution are immoral. But what if you're in a country freshly ruined by war and there are no jobs. Your children are hungry, would you refuse an opportunity to score a sack of potatoes from the back of an unguarded truck.


This is impossible to answer because:

1) Now you are just talking about degrees of immorality. Would it be immoral to steal food from the back of the truck if you and your children are starving? ... yes. Would I do it in that case ... I don't know. Would it be immoral to allow my children to remain hungry if I had the opportunity to fix it? Yes. It is a matter of degrees. That doesn't make stealing less immoral. In this situation I may have had many other opportunities to "score" food without having to resort to stealing.

2) We don't live in a country freshly ruined by war. 

3) Cheating isn't a life and death decision. You will not die and your children will not die if you cheat. You could choose not to cheat and nothing bad will happen to you. If you have a biological urge to procreate with as many females as possible and you are slave to your biological urges ... don't get married.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Marriage is universal in human society because it keeps the peace. The rules and laws supporting marriage were religious and civil until recently. Pastors and police do not stop cheating, so mere injunction is not enough to prevent infidelity. Biology is winning more than you care to admit. I person in sexless marriage who does not cheat cannot have children. That is a negative consequence. Emotional starvation is another
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Marriage is universal in human society because it keeps the peace. The rules and laws supporting marriage were religious and civil until recently. Pastors and police do not stop cheating, so mere injunction is not enough to prevent infidelity. Biology is winning more than you care to admit. *I person in sexless marriage who does not cheat cannot have children.* That is a negative consequence. Emotional starvation is another
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely can. Divorce and find someone who matches. If you actually love your spouse, don't cheat. It really is THAT SIMPLE. If you want sex outside the marriage, talk to your spouse about the issue and resolve it... be it AGREEING to an open marriage (not a unilateral decision) or divorce. Just because pastors and police do not stop it doesn't mean it isn't morally reprehensible. And, pastors do what they can...when it is made known. Counseling, if they are open to it. Still, just because something isn't enforced by legal means doesn't mean the activity isn't morally wrong.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

If it wasn't inherently wrong, cheating wouldn't elicit the level of response that it does emotionally, physically and mentally. As humans, we do respond to things that we know are wrong without social influence. Stealing and lying are examples of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Marriage is universal in human society because it keeps the peace. The rules and laws supporting marriage were religious and civil until recently. Pastors and police do not stop cheating, so mere injunction is not enough to prevent infidelity. Biology is winning more than you care to admit. *I person in sexless marriage who does not cheat cannot have children. That is a negative consequence. Emotional starvation is another*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Emotional health is VERY important and a sexless marriage does tend to have negative consequences on your emotional health ... if you allow it to. I am in a sexless marriage ... I know that intimately. That said, it has a lot to do with expectations and you are entirely in control of that. If I spent the next year as a single person and for whatever reason I was unable to find someone to have sex with, it would have fewer negative emotional consequences than if I spent the same amount of time in a sexless marriage. It is possible to maintain emotional health without intercourse.

I love filet mignon. Going out to a nice restaurant and enjoying a filet mignon over a bottle of wine, some music and good company would be a great evening to me. I would be very happy and satisfied doing that. Life would be good. If I went to the same restaurant expecting that type of evening but all they had was hot dogs and macaroni and cheese, wine coolers, the band was a no-show and my company turned out to be a bunch of whiny losers, I would be very disappointed. It would be a huge letdown. All I would be able to think about is that filet and bottle of wine I wanted to have. I would be starving for it. Conversely, if I came home from work and all I had in the fridge was hot dogs, macaroni and cheese and some wine coolers (not on your life - beer rules), I'd be fine ... I'd eat it and think nothing of it. That is all about expectations.

So the solution to emotional starvation is cheating? Exactly what is the point of remaining married for then? If you aren't getting your emotional needs fulfilled in your marriage then you are going to find it through sex with somebody you're not emotionally attached to? So, if I'm emotionally starving because a lack of sex in my marriage then my solution is to head down to the bar, find some willing drunk woman and bang her brains out in the parking lot? If my emotional need is to be a weak, deceitful, creepy loser who lets the smaller head do my thinking for me then I guess you're right.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

TCSRedhead said:


> If it wasn't inherently wrong, cheating wouldn't elicit the level of response that it does emotionally, physically and mentally. As humans, we do respond to things that we know are wrong without social influence. Stealing and lying are examples of that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly. If it wasn't inherently wrong ... then you would have no problem telling your spouse that you are having sex with someone else.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I think it would depend on why the marriage is sexless. If it's just because one partner would rather not have sex, then it's not a marriage. If the marriage is sexless because one party physically can't have sex, then adultery would be wrong.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> I think it would depend on why the marriage is sexless. * If it's just because one partner would rather not have sex, then it's not a marriage.* If the marriage is sexless because one party physically can't have sex, then adultery would be wrong.


If it isn't a marriage then either try to fix it or make it official.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Wasn't homosexuality once viewed as inherently wrong or immoral. If the norm in society was more open relationships and less monogamous ones, would cheating still be as morally wrong or just another issue that couples argue about like finances and quality time?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> Wasn't homosexuality once viewed as inherently wrong or immoral. If the norm in society was more open relationships and less monogamous ones, would cheating still be as morally wrong or just another issue that couples argue about like finances and quality time?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If it was out in the open, then both parties would have all the information. If the marriage was, knowingly, open, then it wouldn't fall into the classification of cheating.

And, if society as a whole were to try to do away with monogamy, I'd find a deserted island and move there. Just because something becomes an accepted norm of society doesn't mean it automatically becomes morally acceptable.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Kermitty said:


> Wasn't homosexuality once viewed as inherently wrong or immoral. If the norm in society was more open relationships and less monogamous ones, would cheating still be as morally wrong or just another issue that couples argue about like finances and quality time?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Open relationships vs "monogamy" paired with cheating... Hmm.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> Wasn't homosexuality once viewed as inherently wrong or immoral. If the norm in society was more open relationships and less monogamous ones, would cheating still be as morally wrong or just another issue that couples argue about like finances and quality time?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The issue isn't that you have sex with someone else while you are married. If you have an open marriage then you have agreed that it is acceptable to both of you to have sex with other people. Just like homosexuality, religion may say differently but I'm not here to argue religious mores. Cheating is immoral because you are intentionally deceiving your partner. You are breaking the commitment you made with your spouse and you are doing it without their knowledge or approval. It is a betrayal. There is a victim. It causes significant damage. It causes damage even if the partner is unaware. There is no victim in homosexuality.

If you are talking degrees of immorality then I suppose it is possible that the degree of the betrayal may change as our culture becomes more open. That doesn't make it moral and it certainly isn't up to the wayward spouse to decide how much of a betrayal it is.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

All of this just sounds like splitting a$$ hairs in an effort to justify getting your d!ck wet by somebody other than your spouse. 

These are the same arguments a cheating spouse may use even if they are perfectly capable of having a satisfying sex life within their marriage. They convince themselves there is some moral justification for it ... and then when they get caught, they blame the spouse.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

It is just so simple, lying by omission is wrong. 

There is no justification for being an immoral, lying, cheating person. 

If someone is sex starved then simply have the guts to work it out or end it. I've been there and now out the other side. Cheating was never an option and I can walk with my head held high and enjoy the rest of my life knowing I did not do the wrong thing by myself, my kids or my ex.

Man up people, take responsibility for your lives and don't hide behind the weakness that is cheating.


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## user1234 (Jun 2, 2013)

CreekWalker said:


> My husband's affair...and abandonment...and even his return and sudden discarding of the other woman...changed me for life.
> 
> I'm a different person than I used to be. I'm a lot more self-serving, which I never was. I believe in me more and him less. I know I grew as a person. But I grew at the expense of my marriage to this man.
> 
> ...


"But I grew at the expense of my marriage to this man."
Wow, it's sad that I know exactly what you mean. I started another thread about a no-sex issue I'm having now, and it's a shame that I question myself or have doubts, because really, I know what I want and what I don't want as a result of the crap he's done, and it's too bad his infidelity and lying were what made me so resolute now...


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

> Originally Posted by TCSRedhead View Post
> If it wasn't inherently wrong, cheating wouldn't elicit the level of response that it does emotionally, physically and mentally. As humans, we do respond to things that we know are wrong without social influence. Stealing and lying are examples of that.


Why is it wrong? It's a gut feeling, really. It's a biological reaction.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Tell you what, let's try an experiment ...

Sit your wife down and admit that you have been cheating on her. Tell her that she should accept it because ... well, it's biology. Pastors and police do it. Let her know that you were morally justified to cheat because <insert reason here>

Good luck.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Tell you what, let's try an experiment ...
> 
> Sit your wife down and admit that you have been cheating on her. Tell her that she should accept it because ... well, it's biology. Pastors and police do it. Let her know that you were morally justified to cheat because <insert reason here>
> 
> Good luck.


Why should I experiment with my life. You can do it with yours. Good luck.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

JustSomeGuyWho was simply adding to the comedy of your comment;



> Why is it wrong? It's a gut feeling, really. It's a biological reaction.


Sorry mate, but cheating can not be justified, period.

Having sex on the side while enjoying the benefits of a clueless wife is extremely selfish and despicable behavior. Divorce, seperate, hell even propose an open marriage, but there's no reason to cheat. Unless of course your wife is putting a gun to your head saying that if you leave her she'll murder you and your children hence you can't leave - then one would be more understanding.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> JustSomeGuyWho was simply adding to the comedy of your comment;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't leave my sexless marriage or cheat because I am already divorced.

Agreed that cheating is dishonest. But the original question of whether infidelity can ever be justified in a sexless marriage is a good one. Husband has type two diabetes and suffers depression. ED is fact. Wife loves him and does not want a divorce but is starved for sex. If she requests an open marriage it may crush him.

It may be morally wrong for her to have an affair, but other choices may be morally wrong as well.

At one time affairs were justification for duels. If someone slept with you wife, you could insult him and demand satisfaction. There was a chance kill someone (or be killed) in revenge. Today that is not allowed anymore. In the First World War people stood up and walked into machine gun fire because honor demanded it. No modern army asks its soldiers to do it. Abortion was once a crime but is no longer. A rich couple in the US can pay a woman in India to bear their children so their careers and sex life are not disturbed by pregnancy.

Infidelity is tied to a complex set of values. Those values are not stable. Hence, it is unrealistic to believe our moral values are indestructible.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> I can't leave my sexless marriage or cheat because I am already divorced.
> 
> Infidelity is tied to a complex set of values. Those values are not stable. Hence, it is unrealistic to believe our moral values are indestructible.


So you just like to stir the pot, huh?

If it wasn't inherently wrong on a biological level, why the biological reaction?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> Agreed that cheating is dishonest. But the original question of whether infidelity can ever be justified in a sexless marriage is a good one. Husband has type two diabetes and suffers depression. ED is fact. Wife loves him and does not want a divorce but is starved for sex. If she requests an open marriage it may crush him.
> 
> It may be morally wrong for her to have an affair, but other choices may be morally wrong as well.


:scratchhead:

I fail to see how an open marriage is morally wrong, especially compared to cheating itself. An open marriage IS fidelity, in history there was even polygamy, polyamory, and people accepted it as part of life. No breach of trust, simply 'sharing the love'.



> In the First World War people stood up and walked into machine gun fire because honor demanded it. No modern army asks its soldiers to do it.


Heh no, they just tell the soldiers to do it anyway lol, honor or no


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> If it isn't a marriage then either try to fix it or make it official.


Why should a man commit financial suicide and lose access to his kids as a remedy for making the mistake of marrying, in good faith, a fraudulent partner? If there is a female in his home who swore to be a wife but won't, there is no marriage and if he had sex elsewhere, there would be no victim. One cannot steal what another has abandoned on the side of the road. If he is content to financially support a fraudulent wife and she is content to exploit a man she doesn't love, then there is no victim. If she had a roof and was being fed as a reward for being a loveless, sexless fraud, she'd be getting far more than she deserved. She would have forfeited all expectation for sexual loyalty. If she wants a divorce (and if she had a shred of decency, she would), she'd waive any claim to his property and he'd get primary custody of the kids. She'd be the one who abandoned the marriage. Let her bear the majority of the consequences. I don't see rewarding a woman for victimizing her husband.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Why should a man commit financial suicide and lose access to his kids as a remedy for making the mistake of marrying, in good faith, a fraudulent partner? If there is a female in his home who swore to be a wife but won't, there is no marriage and if he had sex elsewhere, there would be no victim. One cannot steal what another has abandoned on the side of the road. If he is content to financially support a fraudulent wife and she is content to exploit a man she doesn't love, then there is no victim. If she had a roof and was being fed as a reward for being a loveless, sexless fraud, she'd be getting far more than she deserved. She would have forfeited all expectation for sexual loyalty. If she wants a divorce (and if she had a shred of decency, she would), she'd waive* any claim to his property and he'd get primary custody of the kids*. She'd be the one who abandoned the marriage. Let her bear the majority of the consequences. I don't see rewarding a woman for victimizing her husband.


Unless she paid half the mortgage, then it's their property not automatically his. 
Also it would be fine the other way, if he is withholding sex it's ok for her to cheat?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Why should a man commit financial suicide and lose access to his kids as a remedy for making the mistake of marrying, in good faith, a fraudulent partner? If there is a female in his home who swore to be a wife but won't, there is no marriage and if he had sex elsewhere, there would be no victim. One cannot steal what another has abandoned on the side of the road. If he is content to financially support a fraudulent wife and she is content to exploit a man she doesn't love, then there is no victim. If she had a roof and was being fed as a reward for being a loveless, sexless fraud, she'd be getting far more than she deserved. She would have forfeited all expectation for sexual loyalty. If she wants a divorce (and if she had a shred of decency, she would), she'd waive any claim to his property and he'd get primary custody of the kids. She'd be the one who abandoned the marriage. Let her bear the majority of the consequences. I don't see rewarding a woman for victimizing her husband.


This is a profound critique of the law. The next poster is right. A woman could lose, too. As income disparity narrows this will increasingly be a scenario.

However, equality is tricky because men are pushed towards marriage by paternity laws. If you father a child outside of marriage, you must still pay, regardless if the mother is committed to a relationship with you. So, why not marry?

Many spouses take their other for granted and sex is just one area that goes south.

re: open marriage
Open marriage is a good solution. However, what if the spouse who is not willing to have sex considers the request to discuss it grounds for divorce?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> re: open marriage
> Open marriage is a good solution. However, what if the spouse who is not willing to have sex considers the request to discuss it grounds for divorce?


Then the die is cast, the end is near, and a new beginning dawns!

Divorce ain't the end of the world, and it could mean the end of these sexless conditions, and the beginning of a new relationship where one can actually plow something


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

You know... you can come up with as many "what if" scenarios as you like. As many attempts to justify it if you like. It's still not going to change my mind, nor the mind of those who are adamantly against cheating. It's morally wrong. And, even if someone tries to justify it, even if they make laws (loopholes or whatever) that say it is legally ok... it doesn't matter. What is morally wrong is still morally wrong. I don't care if the spouse is suffering from depression, has ED, vaginal issues, etc. Not ONE of those gives ANYONE license to cheat. If gives you license to have an OPEN CONVERSATION about sex, but not to have sex with someone else behind your spouse's back. NO excuses for cheating. Even sexless marriage "just because". You can discuss the issue and go from there. But cheating? No. Nothing anyone can say will ever convince me that it's ok in "special circumstances". It isn't ok, ever.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> You know... you can come up with as many "what if" scenarios as you like. As many attempts to justify it if you like. It's still not going to change my mind, nor the mind of those who are adamantly against cheating. It's morally wrong. And, even if someone tries to justify it, even if they make laws (loopholes or whatever) that say it is legally ok... it doesn't matter. What is morally wrong is still morally wrong. I don't care if the spouse is suffering from depression, has ED, vaginal issues, etc. Not ONE of those gives ANYONE license to cheat. If gives you license to have an OPEN CONVERSATION about sex, but not to have sex with someone else behind your spouse's back. NO excuses for cheating. Even sexless marriage "just because". You can discuss the issue and go from there. But cheating? No. Nothing anyone can say will ever convince me that it's ok in "special circumstances". It isn't ok, ever.


With all respect Maricha, please read this story and share your opinion.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Then the die is cast, the end is near, and a new beginning dawns!
> 
> Divorce ain't the end of the world, and it could mean the end of these sexless conditions, and the beginning of a new relationship where one can actually plow something


People in sexless marriages may have a right to cheat under certain circumstances. However, lets be honest, there are many reasons that couples stop having sex. I can imagine women getting pretty resentful about husbands in a watching ESPN sport more hours of the week than spending time with their kids. Why should she be turned on when he switches off the set at 11:00, quickly brushes his teeth and wants a quick lay good night.



> Divorce ain't the end of the world


 But it causes social and economic problems. Reducing divorce rates by reducing the unnecessary ruptured families is goal of public policy. That is why politicians always pose with their families to prove their fitness by example.

How many families were ruined by the wars the US has been fighting overseas? How many have ruined by the mortgage fraud disaster (created by the banks).

For sure a lot of affairs have come from these policy failings. Cheating is not just an individual moral failure, it is part of a larger failure. Hard to have good sex life when your house is getting foreclosed.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> With all respect Maricha, please read this story and share your opinion.


My opinion on the story? Let's see.... he met a married woman. Got involved with her. When he realized how far they had gone, he ended the friendship (as seen from the outside world, at least), and she started drinking, which led to her death.

My opinion? He shouldn't have gotten involved with her. Seriously. Was this an attempt to change my mind? I told you, there is NO story which will change my opinion regarding infidelity. This story does not change my opinion.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Maricha, the story left you cold. The man did the right thing?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Let me put the question to you another way. If infidelity is alway wrong and always a gross violation of decency, how would any BS ever forgive and R?

If something is so absolutely wrong, then why should one ever consider kissing that person's lips again, not to mention other parts of the body that were involved in cheating?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Maricha, the story left you cold. The man did the right thing?


The man did the WRONG thing when he got involved with her. He did the RIGHT thing when he walked away. He was not responsible for her actions, nor was she responsible for his. She made the choice to go out and drink every night. Her daughter offered her options to get out of that...she didn't do it. Rather, she pined for a relationship that never should have been.

Left me cold? Because I still maintain that cheating is wrong under any circumstances? Really? Cold, because I feel sorry for the woman who was left at home for so long because her husband, a captain, was away so much? Cold because there are options for companionship, which do NOT include any manner of infidelity? Cold, because I recognize those aspects of the story, which she could have been a part of? And yet, she wasn't. She felt there was nothing to live for because this man, who was not her husband, chose to cease contact because he knew where it as leading. Did he do the right thing in stopping the relationship? Absolutely.

Cold? Hardly.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Let me put the question to you another way. If infidelity is alway wrong and always a gross violation of decency, how would any BS ever forgive and R?
> 
> If something is so absolutely wrong, then why should one ever consider kissing that person's lips again, not to mention other parts of the body that were involved in cheating?


Can a liar never be forgiven if (s)he turns away from lying and tells the truth? Can a thief never be forgiven if (s)he turns from stealing? Can a cheater not be forgiven if (s)he turns away from it and remains faithful? The answer is yes, they can be forgiven. It doesn't mean the action was ever the RIGHT thing, but it DOES mean they have the opportunity to change their ways from doing the WRONG thing, and do RIGHT from then on. It doesn't change the wrongness in any way.


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## CreekWalker (May 31, 2013)

If my husband had said "I'm unhappy and I think I'm going to pick up this skank from high school days at the bar and screw around with her, is that cool with you?" 

I would have said "ummm no." 

If he had said "I'm unhappy in the marriage and I need you to do A/B or C for me to be happy, can you do that?"

I would have looked into the options.

Either way I could have made a choice, alongside him, as to whether or not I wanted to be in the marriage. If divorce was a good plan, how to handle that with our kids...the whole shabang.

Instead I found out about the affair...at the worst possible time...with three kids I had to support when he left. Now, I took him back and forgave his affair, because I love him. But...if he had been honest from the beginning things would never have been so ugly. 

His affair made me feel like dying. It was a little death if you ask me. So...if you just have to have an affair...be aware that whatever you think your spouse has or hasn't done for you, you are about to really do much worse. Being cheated on sucks. And being the cheater...means you lose a lot of the integrity you thought was an intrinsic part of you.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Let me put the question to you another way. If infidelity is alway wrong and always a gross violation of decency, how would any BS ever forgive and R?
> 
> If something is so absolutely wrong, then why should one ever consider kissing that person's lips again, not to mention other parts of the body that were involved in cheating?


Because there is such a thing as forgiveness. Just because I can forgive my spouse doesn't mean what they did was any less immoral.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> The man did the WRONG thing when he got involved with her. He did the RIGHT thing when he walked away. He was not responsible for her actions, nor was she responsible for his. She made the choice to go out and drink every night. Her daughter offered her options to get out of that...she didn't do it. Rather, she pined for a relationship that never should have been.
> 
> Left me cold? Because I still maintain that cheating is wrong under any circumstances? Really? Cold, because I feel sorry for the woman who was left at home for so long because her husband, a captain, was away so much? Cold because there are options for companionship, which do NOT include any manner of infidelity? Cold, because I recognize those aspects of the story, which she could have been a part of? And yet, she wasn't. She felt there was nothing to live for because this man, who was not her husband, chose to cease contact because he knew where it as leading. Did he do the right thing in stopping the relationship? Absolutely.
> 
> Cold? Hardly.


I thought the story was about a man who had never dared to love, who had let life's feast pass him by. His correctness and rectitude caused him to recoil at the only physical intimacy that he ever experienced. He broke off the relationship in a manner that hurt and humiliated the EA partner so that she gave up on life.

It seemed to me that the author was suggesting that infidelity would have been not only OK, but morally right. Of course that story was set in Catholic Ireland when divorce was impossible.

You are treating everyone according to a standard that fits your cultural and socio-economic norms. History has been different and even in the US, there are many people who lead very different lives than you imagine.

Why isn't adultery a crime? Should it be?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Because there is such a thing as forgiveness. Just because I can forgive my spouse doesn't mean what they did was any less immoral.


A person can be forgiven for committing murder, rape and even for running a ponzi scheme. But they should go to jail, don't you think? Should adulterers go to jail? Or pay civil penalties?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

CreekWalker said:


> If my husband had said "I'm unhappy and I think I'm going to pick up this skank from high school days at the bar and screw around with her, is that cool with you?"
> 
> I would have said "ummm no."
> 
> ...


Very fair account.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

TCSRedhead said:


> So you just like to stir the pot, huh?


Do you mean I am trœlling, you for kicks? Not my intention. TAM CWI is primarily a place for BS to deal with their situation. It deals best with straightforward situations, such as "Two kids and husband of 15 years is having an affair, help".

Some of the threads explode with anger. The OPs disappear and TAMers argue like mad and many only want the OP to come back so that the thread doesn't go zombie. So, self-righteousness and inflexibility are a problem on TAM. One of the good posters said she was thinking of quitting because of misogyny and gang mentality. 



> If it wasn't inherently wrong on a biological level, why the biological reaction?


Obviously, everybody has a visceral reaction to cheating. Like jealousy it is hardwired into us.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> I thought the story was about a man who had never dared to love, who had let life's feast pass him by. His correctness and rectitude caused him to recoil at the only physical intimacy that he ever experienced. He broke off the relationship in a manner that hurt and humiliated the EA partner so that she gave up on life.


She made the CHOICE on her own. I didn't see the story the same way you did, obviously. I recognized the EA, obviously. But, I also recognized the manner in which he chose to end it: NC, which I view to be the correct stance regarding any type of infidelity. That she made the CHOICES she did, which ultimately led to her demise, is not HIS fault. As I stated before, her daughter tried to involve her in other activities. She had none of it. Rather, she chose to pine for her EA. Very sad existence, indeed. Had she taken a different course, such as her daughter's suggestions, she likely wouldn't have died the way she did. 



LongWalk said:


> It seemed to me that the author was suggesting that infidelity would have been not only OK, but morally right. Of course that story was set in Catholic Ireland when divorce was impossible.


He likely was suggesting that very idea. I would still say his assertion is false. Infidelity is not ok, nor is it morally right... ever. Whether divorce is impossible or not. This is what you are not understanding. Throw as many examples, stories, etc out there as you like. It still won't change the fact that infidelity is morally reprehensible.



LongWalk said:


> You are treating everyone according to a standard that fits your cultural and socio-economic norms. History has been different and even in the US, there are many people who lead very different lives than you imagine.


I'm aware there are people who lead very different lives. Really, do you think I am that dense? 

I find it funny, however, that there are people from all over the world, in various cultures, etc., who say the same thing I have been saying: It is not ok. It is never ok. These people are Christians, atheists, Buddhists, etc. Poor people, rich people, even middle class. Yet, you still seem to cling heavily to the "It's ok in certain circumstances"... why is that? Really, WHY are you so adamant that it is ok for certain people/certain marriages?

You specifically mentioned a spouse with depression and/or diabetes, with ED. My husband suffers from depression. More specifically, he is bipolar, but his form is heavily depressed. Even in his "up" phases, he isn't really "up"... but closer to "normal". He is on various medications which have affected his libido. Based on what you have said, it would be ok, even morally right, for me to go ahead and cheat on him. Sorry, but that is NOT ok to me. Nor is it ok to many of the people who have been posting in this thread. To say that CHEATING is ever "ok" or "morally right" in ANY way is absolutely disgusting. 



LongWalk said:


> Why isn't adultery a crime? Should it be?


Who says it isn't? In some places in the world, it IS a crime. Should it be everywhere else? Well, you won't like my answer to that....


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

TiggyBlue said:


> Unless she paid half the mortgage, then it's their property not automatically his.
> Also it would be fine the other way, if he is withholding sex it's ok for her to cheat?


Absolutely, if he'd been serially withholding long enough, it'd be morally ok for him to go elsewhere for sex. If he moved out of the house and openly lived with another woman, wouldn't it be ok for his wife to have sex with someone? What's the difference? Either way, one party has left the marriage, leaving only a legal technicality. Either way, there would be no victim. I cannot steal property that has no owner. If one spouse is serially withholding, they have left the marriage. They have no husband or wife. They have no marriage. They have a legal technicality that is more fraud than marriage. To compel the victimized partner to either remain celibate or to voluntarily commit financial ruin would be to morally legitimize slavery as to be on equal footing as a real marriage. "Adultery" is shocking to you but keeping one's spouse in a condition of unrequited servitude is perfectly acceptable? In my estimation, willfull withholding is so evil that any consequence that befell the withholder would be perfectly fine by me.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> Over the 12 year relationship with my wife, our sex life has gone from bad to non-existent. It was never good - even when we were dating. She's very pretty but I've never been sexually attracted to her. When you’re 18 you don’t think such a thing is possible… Our relationship was based on friendship, companionship, and shared interests. She had a fairly active libido when we first met but we’ve never been compatible sexually. She is incredibly sensitive and most anything I do in bed "hurts" her. I'm not into rough sex, just a little dirty talk and some light role playing. With my past partners, I'm used to doing things like a little nibbling, the occasional hair pulling, or playful biting and slapping. With her, all of that stuff was just awkward and not received well at all. She tried a few times to give me oral pleasure but it was never good. So that was totally abandoned as well. Using her own words, she is "too sensitive" for anything but missionary position. We talked about it and worked on it the first year or so, about how we could learn to pleasure each other, but over time, sex just devolved into this horrible routine. Once married, we basically only had sex to procreate. We'd turn on some porn, which I introduced her to but after a while she was requesting every time, then she'd assume the missionary position. I'd caress her for about 15-20 minutes until she was aroused. During that time, I'd almost always get scolded at some point for being too rough and not being sensitive to her needs. Then when she was wet, I'd get myself aroused by looking at the porn, and then we'd screw. She always came before I did, but over the years I taught myself how to cum faster (not something I ever thought I'd have to worry about). Then we clean up the mess and go back to watching regular TV. Frankly, it sucked. Sometimes I dreaded having sex. But then, things actually got worse. She knew the few times we really had good sex was when we climaxed at / near the same time. Because she really wanted to pleasure me, she became so worried about always coming before me, that she started holding back her orgasms. So now, she has a mental block and can't even orgasm anymore even when she wants to. So then her libido went away because she doesn't enjoy sex anymore either. Welcome to the club. I can't even remember the last time we had sex other than failed penetration that left her wincing in pain. The last thing I want to do is hurt my wife physically so I’d get limp just seeing her suffer. It was horrible.
> 
> At some point I began feeling self doubt. Was I a bad lover? Was I a clutz in bed? I also wonder about why she would insist on watching porn every time we had sex. Is it a crutch for her too or some way to fantasize about things she’s unwilling to talk about? I can be very candid about sex but she’s totally unwilling.
> 
> ...



I would of gone to Marriage Counseling, Therapy, you name it to work this all out. But if this all did nothing, then get a peaceful divorce and still be on friendly terms.

Sounds like a sexual mismatch. You are HD and your wife is LD and your mistress is HD.

Having two wonderful kids does complicate things for sure.

At this point, I would say, get a divorce, and start fresh. No more cheating and do the right thing.

I understand why you did cheat, but you could of just relieved yourself instead and made a final attempt to work it out with your wifee.

Cheating is bad, no way how you slice it.

I'm more worried about the kids at this point and their futures.

Maricha75 has nailed this.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Coming from a family with infidelity there is no way I could justify cheating (way to much pain and anger for kids, adults also underestimate what kids know/pick up on). For me the option would be to leave the marriage.
Sexless may be cruel (can totally understand why someone would leave a sexless marriage) but at least it's upfront.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

One can't murder a dead person. One can't steal property no-one owns. One can't be unfaithful to a wife who isn't a wife and who has no intention of ever being one. One can't be unfaithful to a husband who refuses to be a husband. One person doesn't consitute a marriage. If one leaves (emotionally, sexually, or physically), there is no marriage, therefore, there can be no adultery.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

> He likely was suggesting that very idea. I would still say his assertion is false. Infidelity is not ok, nor is it morally right... ever. *Whether divorce is impossible or not.* This is what you are not understanding. Throw as many examples, stories, etc out there as you like. It still won't change the fact that infidelity is morally reprehensible.


Do you believe divorce is immoral? Is right to have no fault divorce?



> I'm aware there are people who lead very different lives. Really, do you think I am that dense?


No, you're not dense. Maybe a little intense, haha.



> I find it funny, however, that there are people from all over the world, in various cultures, etc., who say the same thing I have been saying: It is not ok. It is never ok. These people are Christians, atheists, Buddhists, etc. Poor people, rich people, even middle class. Yet, you still seem to cling heavily to the "It's ok in certain circumstances"... why is that? Really, WHY are you so adamant that it is ok for certain people/certain marriages?


I have enough experience to question dogma. When I was 19, while visiting a country where divorce was not allowed I saw a woman threaten her husband with cleaver. He has schizophrenia and the his family had been really happy to have deceived the woman into the marriage so that she would become the caretaker. Hospitalization and drugs were in short supply.

Affairs were not permitted at that time in that country, although today infidelity is common place.

If it had been safe to have an affair in those circumstances I could see no objection.

There are many people all around the world who are forced into arranged marriages. In India is the dowry is too small, the husbands sometime disfigure their wives' faces with acid. Do those women have to accept those marriages? I think if a husband pulls shı† like that he has no right to expect fidelity or love.

In Europe there are men who travel to Thailand and marry young women bring them home and abuse them, some even forcing them into prostitution. These women usually cannot divorce because they will lose residency. So they suffer on to try and reach the point in time that will allow them to divorce. The men go and get a new one as soon as the old one is used up.

If one of these women should have an affair, so what? Does the moral universe crash down?



> You specifically mentioned a spouse with depression and/or diabetes, with ED. My husband suffers from depression. More specifically, he is bipolar, but his form is heavily depressed. Even in his "up" phases, he isn't really "up"... but closer to "normal". He is on various medications which have affected his libido. *Based on what you have said, it would be ok, even morally right, for me to go ahead and cheat on him.* Sorry, but that is NOT ok to me. Nor is it ok to many of the people who have been posting in this thread. To say that CHEATING is ever "ok" or "morally right" in ANY way is absolutely disgusting.


I am sorry that he suffers bipolar disorder. Your marriage is your business. If you stick by your husband through thick and thin, that says a lot about your loyalty. Good for you.

I have been to mental hospitals more than once to help my brother who always got into big trouble when he went off the meds. I have mingled with them. Smelled the smells. Looked into their troubled drugged eyes. I laughed the jokes they told that I could understand and even those that made no sense. I always felt that they were people worthy of dignity and respect, but in real life, I can certainly see that any spouse would have a worse time.

It must be worst for parents, spouses, children, siblings with some variation. If the truth be told, people give up on the mentally ill. I am sure that there are husbands and wives in the thousands who don't even know what happened to bipolar drug abusing spouse. If they cheated during the hard years or the MIA years, that was part of the grim territory.

My brother died of his illness went off the meds and died. I said goodbye to him when his insurance ran out and he was moved to a county hospital. I told him I'd be back to help him get out of the hospital once his meds kicked in. I got on a plane got home and got a call that he died of thrombosis to the lungs. He had sat too long in bed in the private hospital.

Even though it's been a long time reading what you wrote and writing back has actually made me sad. TAM trigger, haha.



> To say that CHEATING is ever "ok" or "morally right" in ANY way is absolutely disgusting.


Are you saying that I am an absolutely morally disgusting person? Shame on you if that is so. Don't hold your breath for a TAM friend request. 



> Who says it isn't? In some places in the world, it IS a crime. Should it be everywhere else? Well, you won't like my answer to that....


If you believed in open discussion, you wouldn't be afraid to present your idea, to test its soundness. I think civil penalties for infidelity could be considered... I am trying to imagine how it would work... In Iran they stone adulterers.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Do you believe divorce is immoral? Is right to have no fault divorce?


If I believed divorce to be immoral, then I would be saying my mother and both of my sisters are immoral. So, no, I don't think it is immoral. I also don't think there should be no fault divorce either. Again, my opinion, based on the experiences of my mom and sisters... all had unfaithful husbands. Fortunately, each met a good man afterward: mom met dad, and one sister is remarried to a good man, and the third is dating another good man.





LongWalk said:


> No, you're not dense. Maybe a little intense, haha.


Like a dog with a bone? You're a bit tenacious yourself lol.



LongWalk said:


> I have enough experience to question dogma. When I was 19, while visiting a country where divorce was not allowed I saw a woman threaten her husband with cleaver. He has schizophrenia and the his family had been really happy to have deceived the woman into the marriage so that she would become the caretaker. Hospitalization and drugs were in short supply.
> 
> Affairs were not permitted at that time in that country, although today infidelity is common place.
> 
> ...


My mom threatened her ex-husband (they were still married at the time) with a butcher knife when he brought his pregnant wh0re into their house, with mom and his family there. His family took her side and even tried to hide her when papers were being served.

You mentioned India and disfiguring if the dowry wasn't high enough. Nope. She shouldn't have to put up with it. She also shouldn't lower herself to his level by having an affair.

Brides from Thailand forced into prostitution? Wouldn't that, by definition, be considered an open marriage? 

As for the part about the country you visited... I still wouldn't agree that it would be ok. If anything, I would see it as more dangerous, but that's my opinion, based on my limited knowledge of schizophrenia. Regardless, I would still see it as wrong.



LongWalk said:


> I am sorry that he suffers bipolar disorder. Your marriage is your business. If you stick by your husband through thick and thin, that says a lot about your loyalty. Good for you.
> 
> I have been to mental hospitals more than once to help my brother who always got into big trouble when he went off the meds. I have mingled with them. Smelled the smells. Looked into their troubled drugged eyes. I laughed the jokes they told that I could understand and even those that made no sense. I always felt that they were people worthy of dignity and respect, but in real life, I can certainly see that any spouse would have a worse time.
> 
> ...


Sad truth is that I wasn't always there for him. Never had sex with anyone else, but I checked out emotionally. Hence, my question a few pages back regarding your stance that cheaters who say it is wrong are hypocrites. What I couldn't do, and I'm thankful for that clarity, at least, was PA. Which is why I saw that story differently, I suspect. I said the woman in the story could have taken a different path because I did, as did many ladies on TAM. There is always a choice. There is always right and wrong...even when people try to muddy the waters.



LongWalk said:


> Are you saying that I am an absolutely morally disgusting person? Shame on you if that is so. Don't hold your breath for a TAM friend request.


No, I said SAYING that is absolutely disgusting. AFAIK, you haven't done that, yourself. You don't have a thread of your own, and archives only go to 500 as far as I have been able to see. You have more than 500 posts, so I can't see the ones before the last 500. And don't worry... I wasn't holding my breath for a friend request. 



LongWalk said:


> If you believed in open discussion, you wouldn't be afraid to present your idea, to test its soundness. I think civil penalties for infidelity could be considered... I am trying to imagine how it would work... In Iran they stone adulterers.


No idea how they would punish infidelity. Stoning is rather harsh. Civil penalties... yea, that could work... jail time... Obviously not as high a penalty as murder, but higher than drug possession. Do I think it will happen? Not likely.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Holland said:


> Totally agree with JSGW.
> 
> Cheating by definition is an immoral action. It is a weak action.
> 
> ...


I agree totally. Yes, it's wrong for a spouse to withhold sex. But that wrong doesn't suddenly negate the wrong in cheating and make it acceptable. Cheating is never, ever, justified under _any_ circumstances. If things are so bad that a man or woman feels the desire to cheat, then they should end the marriage, imo. If their spouse is okay with an open marriage, then fine. But the chances of that aren't likely.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LongWalk said:


> Why should I experiment with my life. You can do it with yours. Good luck.


Because you're the one advocating and justifying cheating within marriage. 

If you don't have the guts to practice what you preach, then you should keep quiet. Cause that's _also_ hypocrisy.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Because you're the one advocating and justifying cheating within marriage.
> 
> If you don't have the guts to practice what you preach, then you should keep quiet. Cause that's _also_ hypocrisy.


Where did I advocated cheating?

I don't think you read what I wrote.

Why are you hanging out here on a thread that asks a question if you are not prepared to discuss it. You can have a different opinion, but to call someone a hypocrite and tell them to "be quiet" (shut up) is just rude.

I wouldn't have thought it of you L2W of all people.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Where did I advocated cheating?
> 
> I don't think you read what I wrote.
> 
> ...


Really? You weren't advocating it in "special circumstances"?Not even once where you said "I can see it being ok in this situation" and the like? Then what were you trying to say, if not advocating cheating?

I may be wrong, but I think she was saying "be quiet" because of your own hypocrisy: saying it's ok, but unwilling to implement it in your own relationship.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LongWalk said:


> People in sexless marriages may have a right to cheat under certain circumstances. However, lets be honest, there are many reasons that couples stop having sex. I can imagine women getting pretty resentful about husbands in a watching ESPN sport more hours of the week than spending time with their kids. Why should she be turned on when he switches off the set at 11:00, quickly brushes his teeth and wants a quick lay good night.


Nope, they still have no right to cheat in my opinion. The husband is still providing for her, still entrusting her, still working with his blood and sweat for her, and all he asks is not to be made a cuckold. While the wayward wife finds any excuse to become unfaithful, watching sport? Come on... and takes what he gives her, enjoys the priviledges of marriage, and ignoring the responsibility that it entails... sleeping with other men behind his back, driving him into devastation when he inevitably finds out, and forcing her into the "fog" as to escape the inevitable guilt.

Sorry, but dishonesty is dishonesty, cheating can not be justified. If you want sex in a sexless marriage, have some integrity, don't take money from a spouse that doesn't provide for your needs, don't betray someone who although may not be fking you is providing a roof over your head.



> But it causes social and economic problems. Reducing divorce rates by reducing the unnecessary ruptured families is goal of public policy. That is why politicians always pose with their families to prove their fitness by example.
> 
> How many families were ruined by the wars the US has been fighting overseas? How many have ruined by the mortgage fraud disaster (created by the banks).
> 
> For sure a lot of affairs have come from these policy failings. Cheating is not just an individual moral failure, it is part of a larger failure. Hard to have good sex life when your house is getting foreclosed.


You think any individual would agree to be betrayed "for the greater good of society?" 

No, don't divorce, be a cuckold! Stay married, keep spending money for your wayward wife! Sure if you divorce you can spend money for yourself, your kids or a wife who actually has some integrity! BUT, that's not beneficial for the state, BE PATRIOTIC!

:rofl:


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LongWalk said:


> Where did I advocated cheating?
> 
> I don't think you read what I wrote.
> 
> ...


1. My reading comprehension must be substantially lower than it has been for years if you _weren't_ advocating cheating throughout this entire thread...Was it not you who kept bringing up special circumstances in which infidelity could be justified? Either that's advocating it, or I have had an inaccurate idea of the definition of that work my entire life. 

2. I'm perfectly prepared to discuss it, thanks. But I don't have respect for anyone who gives advice, or touts a specific opinion, who isn't prepared to practice that advice, or act out that opinion themselves. It is hypocrisy, and imo, if you're not prepared to live out what you voice, you don't have any business voicing it. Just my opinion, and not meant to be rude. 

3. That last sentence strikes me as funny, as if you and I are acquainted...as if you know me on some personal level. I'm really not intending to be rude, but I call things how I see them, and sometimes my beliefs are harsh. Like the fact that I believe that cheating is _always_ wrong. I don't give a crap about the extenuating circumstances, it's wrong. Period.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> 1. My reading comprehension must be substantially lower than it has been for years if you _weren't_ advocating cheating throughout this entire thread...Was it not you who kept bringing up special circumstances in which infidelity could be justified? Either that's advocating it, or I have had an inaccurate idea of the definition of that work my entire life.
> 
> Advocating something means that you recommend it. I do not as recommend cheating in general. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
> 
> ...


BtoW, of course we are acquainted. I read what you wrote about pornography, I thought you were brave to explain your position and to stick to it, even others ridiculed you. I did not think you would be the sort of person who would name call.

I recall that you are Christian. I happen to be an atheist but my understanding of Christianity is that it is a religion that urges tolerance and understanding. You urge me to commit adultery so that I will not be guilty of hypocrisy. WTF. What sort of Christian person urges someone to something immoral and destructive to live up to your twisted standard of honesty.

I am supposed to commit adultery so that I have the right to engage in a discussion with you.

Apparently I was mistaken about your character.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

> Originally Posted by LongWalk View Post
> If you believed in open discussion, you wouldn't be afraid to present your idea, to test its soundness. I think civil penalties for infidelity could be considered... I am trying to imagine how it would work... In Iran they stone adulterers.


Your reply



> No idea how they would punish infidelity. Stoning is rather harsh. Civil penalties... yea, that could work... jail time... Obviously not as high a penalty as murder, but higher than drug possession. Do I think it will happen? Not likely.


Who is "they"?

So adultery is something that people should go to jail for? In some respects, I agree, almost. If someone has been married to someone who has cheated and lived a parallel secret life for many years, that is a horrible fraud. Why shouldn't someone be punished for such a lie.

The problem with prosecuting people for illicit sexual relations is that it would take up a lot of time in courts and be circus. So, over decades the general public and lawmakers have given up on the idea of punishing adultery.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

There are element's of what you say LongWalk that I see where your coming from, for instance 
Morocco to axe law allowing rapists to go free if they marry their victim | World news | guardian.co.uk

Why should someone who was forced marrying their rapist be faithful just because they are married and the fact it has just been (or been considered to be) outlawed makes me think how many women did this happen to.
So i've changed my stance lol
If possible to get out of a marriage I would say get out because you won't be able to control or premeditate the collateral damage that incurs from cheating,
however it's easy to wag my finger at cheating in marriage period when I haven't been in a position where I was forced into marriage.
So I guess I don't believe in marriage= no cheating PERIOD (since there are some who do not enter marriage out of their own free will).


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Who is "they"?
> 
> So adultery is something that people should go to jail for? In some respects, I agree, almost. If someone has been married to someone who has cheated and lived a parallel secret life for many years, that is a horrible fraud. Why shouldn't someone be punished for such a lie.
> 
> The problem with prosecuting people for illicit sexual relations is that it would take up a lot of time in courts and be circus. So, over decades the general public and lawmakers have given up on the idea of punishing adultery.


Well, who is "they" in Iran? The lawmakers? The government and representatives of government, including police, etc? Or is it the general public? 

Why not jail them for it? because it's "such a burden"? How about fine them a large sum of money?

I think the problem lies more in the fact that the courts seem to think such things are so mundane, not worth prosecuting, more than likely because the majority are doing it themselves! How can someone who is a part of that scene HONESTLY prosecute someone for those same acts? They can't... not without being hypocrites...not that it stops them now...


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> BtoW, of course we are acquainted. I read what you wrote about pornography, I thought you were brave to explain your position and to stick to it, even others ridiculed you. I did not think you would be the sort of person who would name call.
> 
> I recall that you are Christian. I happen to be an atheist but my understanding of Christianity is that it is a religion that urges tolerance and understanding. You urge me to commit adultery so that I will not be guilty of hypocrisy. WTF. What sort of Christian person urges someone to something immoral and destructive to live up to your twisted standard of honesty.
> 
> ...


Bravo! :smthumbup:
Way to twist her words. She wasn't telling you to go out and cheat on your SO. She was saying it is HYPOCRITICAL to say it's ok for someone to do it if you wouldn't do it in your own relationship... which is what you said here:



LongWalk said:


> Why should I experiment with my life. You can do it with yours. Good luck.


In response to this post:


JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Tell you what, let's try an experiment ...
> 
> Sit your wife down and admit that you have been cheating on her. Tell her that she should accept it because ... well, it's biology. Pastors and police do it. Let her know that you were morally justified to cheat because <insert reason here>
> 
> Good luck.


If it's ok for someone else, why would it NOT be ok for you? C2W and I maintain that it is not ok for anyone. We have not wavered from that stance... not ok for anyone else, not ok for us. And, I believe we have both maintained, whether in this thread or elsewhere, that it's the clandestine nature of it. Sneaking around, hiding it from the spouse. If the spouse knows about it, and is fine with it, then so be it. That wouldn't be cheating...that would be an open marriage.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

This thread just refuses to die, even though the original poster left weeks ago. All these scenarios are hysterical, I bet the OP was probably referring to traditional marriages. What about in some countries where you can marry animals? Is it okay to cheat on your goat?? Sorry I couldn't resist, maybe that post will be next?


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

woundedwarrior said:


> This thread just refuses to die, even though the original poster left weeks ago. All these scenarios are hysterical, I bet the OP was probably referring to traditional marriages. What about in some countries where you can marry animals? *Is it okay to cheat on your goat??* Sorry I couldn't resist, maybe that post will be next?


I think the goat would prefer you cheat on them than eat them. 

Conceding defeat here, infidelity is OK in marriages involving animals.


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## CreekWalker (May 31, 2013)

This thread is a little ridiculous at this point.

To say that if your spouse isn't putting out, a secret affair is A-OK is like saying

~Hey, if your spouse is depressed and annoys you it's ok to give them tea laced with valium (because having an affair affects them directly)

~Hey, if your spouse won't budget money for something you want, just get a secret credit card and buy it anyway, (you'll deal with the payment/your spouse's pain later).

~Hey, the puppy I adopted didn't turn out to be fluffy/small/big/smart enough...so I'm going to ignore it and get a new puppy to give my best attention to (Because focusing on someone else instead isn't fair). 

....Essentially....**** around all you want, AFTER you divorce. Otherwise...you really are just another sneaky shmuck.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Creekwalker just nailed it.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Long Walk[/quote said:


> Advocating something means that you recommend it. I do not as recommend cheating in general. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.


You were _justifying_ it in special circumstances, by saying that it isn't always morally wrong. Perhaps not advocating it or recommending it, but still justifying it. I find it hard to believe, though, that you _wouldn't_ advocate it if you met someone in one of your special circumstances who was asking your opinion as to what they should do. Usually if we justify an action, it means we believe it's the right thing to do. Usually, when approached for advice or an opinion, we tell them what we think is the right thing to do. 



> Understanding for people who see or have no other way out is simply a matter of empathy. Perhaps you cannot empathize with people who imperfect because you believe you are perfect or wish others to believe you are perfect. When I say perfect, I mean morally.


Not at all, but nice attempt. I empathize with people rather well, as I have been through my fair share of pain, disappointments, and man oh man, have I definitely made my fair share of mistakes. Still do, in fact. But, I _can_ see with complete confidence that there are certain lines I will never, ever, cross. Infidelity is one of them, and there isn't a single situation in which I would ever cheat. 

There have been times in my marriage when my emotional needs were not met. As an emotional person, this was a massive blow to my feeling loved and cherished. I could have gone out and tried to fulfill those needs outside of my marriage, whether things went physical or not. But that would have been _selfish_. Now, my situation wasn't abusive. My husband wasn't willfully neglecting my needs, but even if he _did_ do it on purpose, it would not, ever, justify me seeking attention from other men. Whether it went physical or not. Selfishness, and nothing but selfishness, motivates a person to cheat. Maybe they have a horrible marriage; maybe they are neglected; maybe they have been the best spouse possible and their husband or wife still has no sympathy or desire to return the sentiment...it does. not. matter. Infidelity = selfishness, and nothing else. 



> Advice? What advice? To show understanding for women in India who have acid thrown in their faces by their husbands or women sold into marriage not of their own free will? Or people who sacrifice their lives to care for an ill spouse. Or whose mentally spouses disappear for months or years?
> 
> Can you not put yourself in their shoes and imagine that infidelity would be a minor transgression, given the suffering in their lives.


This isn't about comparing infidelity and the abuse some people suffer, this about whether or not infidelity is ever excusable. And the answer is: *NO*. A horrible marriage does NOT negate the immorality of infidelity. EVER. I care about the hardships women go through, and that's why we have women's shelters in this country. I care about the women who don't have access to a woman's shelter because of the country they live in. I care about their hurts, their pains, their sufferings...but I could care less about their desire to screw someone who isn't their husband. Sorry. Them getting laid is *nowhere near* as important as getting them in a safe environment. 

Get them safe, get them divorced, and then let them find love. But in THAT order. 



> Do you believe marriage imposed by tradition, culture and religion against the free will of the person forced into the marriage is valid?


I absolutely don't believe that anyone should be forced to marry someone they don't wish to marry. But that is NOT the argument here. Being forced into marriage does not, and will never, justify infidelity. Get them safe, get them divorced, and then let them find love. 



> At one time there was something called shotgun wedding. Were those marriages real?


Hate to break it to you, but there are _still_ couples getting married for no other reason than the girl is pregnant. Still, not the issue. 



> I recall that you are Christian. I happen to be an atheist but my understanding of Christianity is that it is a religion that urges tolerance and understanding.


Tolerance and understanding to an extent. 



> You urge me to commit adultery so that I will not be guilty of hypocrisy. WTF. What sort of Christian person urges someone to something immoral and destructive to live up to your twisted standard of honesty.


Oh please. You know exactly what I meant. Obviously, since I'm against cheating, I would never encourage someone to do it. My only point was that, if you encourage others to cheat just so they can find happiness without suffering other "worse" consequences, but would never actually do so yourself, you're being hypocritical. I don't actually want you to cheat. Quite the contrary. 



> I am supposed to commit adultery so that I have the right to engage in a discussion with you.


....Hardly....since you're engaging in a discussion with me now. 



> Apparently I was mistaken about your character.


I take that as a compliment since _I'm_ the one who isn't attempting to justify and excuse infidelity.


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## housewife81 (Jun 4, 2013)

I completely understand what you're going through. I'm having the same problem with my husband, and I'm wondering the same thing...is it ok. My husband hardly ever wants to have sex. We've been married several years and it's been that way almost the entire time. He doesn't like being adventurous in bed either. I have tried many times to talk to him about it. It causes me to feel really bad about myself. I started fantasizing about other men about a year ago. I can't help it. Recently I started talking to another man, but we haven't met yet. I can't decide what to do. I have a small child with my husband and don't want to put him through a divorce. When you're not getting sex and you want it, it becomes all you can think about. Being in love with someone who acts like they don't want you is very hurtful. I'm sure it's not right, but there's a lot about this situation that's not right. I'm tired of feeling bad about myself, I'm tired of feeling like I'm having to beg for affection, and I'm tired of thinking about sex all the time!


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

> BtoW, of course we are acquainted. I read what you wrote about pornography, I thought you were brave to explain your position and to stick to it, even others ridiculed you. I did not think you would be the sort of person who would name call.


When did I name call? I said that, if you justify an action for others that you, yourself, would not practice, you're being hypocritical...You yourself used the word hypocrite in this thread and applied it to others here. Moreover, you're doing your utmost to attack my character, my integrity, and my dedication to my faith....all while spouting scripture(do unto others...), _and_ justifying adultery.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

People are not identical. People do not have the same needs, desires, and values in the same proportion all the time.

Taking an absolutist stance about anything is going to create a problem, but even more so when it comes to a rule. What do you do when a situation doesn't fit the paradigm for which the rule was made? Is there room for an exception? Do all people have to agree? There is room for purely academic debate without turning the issue personal, isn't there?

A question such as this one, "is cheating acceptable in a sexless marriage?" is poorly defined. So, assumptions get made and other pieces get filled in. It is important to remember that just as people are not identical, neither are marriages. And people filling in the gaps won't Always fill them in the same way.

The ambiguity is what is fueling the tension surrounding this issue, imo. If we want an agreement, then the conditions need to be defined in a way that allows that agreement. But that also brings up the issue of differences in value when it comes to moral decision making.

Advice that might suit one couple may not suit another. The people involved might have values that are not distributed in similar proportions. Giving advice that one would not take is not exactly the same thing as hypocrisy, though giving advice one wouldn't take does imply a different standard. It is possible that the standard is variable because the people in question are not in the exact same situation as each other -- not identical.

I would not give my sister the same advice I'd give myself; why? Because one of us is superior? No, because we have different values. It is important to take values into account when considering how advice is given, especially when that advice is being made into an absolutist rule.

Is cheating okay in a sexless marriage? It depends on the definitions of cheating, marriage, and sexless. It also depends in the cultural framework of the people in question, the circumstances by which they cane to be in certain positions of power or disempowerment. It also depends on the definition and purpose of "ok"; is it about validation? Permission? Exemption? Subversion? Promotion? See, how you fill in the gaps determines your response.

In a marriage where both partners have committed to monogamy, cheating is considered a violation of the bond. In a marriage where both partners are committed to monogamy, enforced celibacy is also a violation of that bond. I think that in order to prevent the cheating, the bond must be made secure. If it cannot be made secure, then the question of ending or amending the bond should be addressed, as one person is breaking the bond already and another is looking to equalize the imbalance. 

At the end of the day, the question that matters isn't, "is cheating wrong?" -- because, by definition, cheating is fraudulent and fraudulence is immoral and we generally consider immorality wrong. The question that matters in this scenario is, "which will cause the least harm to the least number of people, cheating or building increasing resentment out if frustration?" 

Another element to consider, though, is that the question I've framed to acquire an answer is based on a particular philosophy; not all people share the same rules, so we can expect that not all people share the same philosophy. 

Expecting agreement and considering different standards hypocrisy isn't a question about the situation anymore, but about the philosophy by which rules will be made that will govern that situation. In this regard, the absolutist stance "cheating should never be acceptable" is a debate proposition that is considering the abstract question of whether or not it is a morally good thing to defraud someone who has committed to you in good faith. But the question of exceptions in circumstances is less about making a policy and more about finding an empathetic compromise. One question is asking "are there exceptions for which cheating is not reprehensible" and another question is asking "is cheating itself, as a concept, a good thing or a bad thing?"

Just as one wouldn't give the same advice to couples in different cultural contexts, one might also consider the venue of the statement. "Is cheating fundamentally good or fundamentally bad?" is a statement containing a broad value, but the question. "Are there circumstances in which cheating is not the worst offense in the paradigm?"

I doubt that most moral individuals would see cheating as a virtuous action. I also think that virtue doesn't exist in a vacuum. And, I think that most people on TAM are opposed to cheating a partner on principle. Questioning the limits of those concepts and being willing to adapt advice that one wouldn't take doesn't constitute hypocrisy but a difference of standard. 

No need for it to become personal, IMO.

Now, do we apply the same standards to goats as guys and gals or can I be revolted by the idea of goat sex and opt to eat the yummy aforementioned goat, instead?

Sorry for any confusing terminology or gaps in logic; I'm sleepy. But I wanted to respond because I think the conversation about the topic doesn't have onto get personal and wanted to tyro my opinion in there, too.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

:iagree:
Good dispassionate analysis.

I hope the others will consider it.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

I'm willing to bet all the "pro" cheaters are either divorced or single. The only opinions here that matter are the ones who either cheated or got cheated on.
Cheater=weak, coward, dishonest, etc, and you know the phrase "cheaters never win". Show me one that has solidified their marriage, you can't. I can name 3 that I personally know, and guess what, they are all single & bitter. You reap what you sow.
Ask my ex, who cheated, trashed her marriage, put her in large debt, that she's still in & is now pushing 50, alone & lonely. Anybody can justify anything if it doesn't apply to them. "You can't do a book report, if you haven't read the book"!!!!!


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

> LongWalk
> Re: Is infidelity OK in a sexless marriage?
> 
> Good dispassionate analysis.
> ...


 Very condescending. Just because people disagree does not mean they don't consider others thoughts and opinions.



> Taking an absolutist stance about anything is going to create a problem, but even more so when it comes to a rule. What do you do when a situation doesn't fit the paradigm for which the *rule *was made? Is there room for an exception? Do all people have to agree?


 Taking an absolute stance is perfectly acceptable. Standing by it may cause a problem, expecting everyone else to agree will certainly create a problem but the individual is well able to have an absolute stance on any issue they wish too.

I have a personal *rule *about infidelity and it sits well with me and in my life. Zero tolerance, no exceptions, no excuses.

I stand by my original sentiment that cheaters are weak willed. They are not only lying to the ones they allegedly love but they are cheating themselves out of a life of dignity.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I've yet to hear anyone make up a scenario where infidelity can be justifiable in a sexless marriage, whether I'm being absolute or no.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

> Taking an absolutist stance about anything is going to create a problem, but even more so when it comes to a rule. What do you do when a situation doesn't fit the paradigm for which the rule was made? Is there room for an exception? Do all people have to agree? There is room for purely academic debate without turning the issue personal, isn't there


We don't all have to agree. We are each able to make up our own minds, obviously. However, those of us with the "absolutist stance", as you call it, are free to maintain that stance if we so choose. Which many of us do, in any circumstance. One does not have to agree with me, or C2W, or anyone else on "this side" of the debate. If one can sleep well at night while standing by their own stance on the issue, more power to them. I couldn't if I tried to rationalize cheating in any situation. 



> *Advice that might suit one couple may not suit another. The people involved might have values that are not distributed in similar proportions.* Giving advice that one would not take is not exactly the same thing as hypocrisy, though giving advice one wouldn't take does imply a different standard. It is possible that the standard is variable because the people in question are not in the exact same situation as each other -- not identical.
> 
> *I would not give my sister the same advice I'd give myself*; why? Because one of us is superior? No, because we have different values. *It is important to take values into account when considering how advice is given, especially when that advice is being made into an absolutist rule.*


Here's the thing. If I am being asked my opinion on the subject, I give my opinion on it. It doesn't matter if one is a swinger or living in a country where divorce is not an option. If I am asked what my opinion is of cheating in XYZ situation, my opinion does not change. If I am asked for an opinion, it is because someone WANTS the opinion of others, not just to go by their own feelings on the subject. IOW. If my cousin, who has very different values from me, were to ask for my opinion on this very subject, my response would remain the same. If someone from Thailand, or India, or any other country, were to ask my opinion on this very subject, my response would still remain the same. Why? Because MY values don't change. It has nothing to do with cultural norms or the like. It has everything to do with personal opinion. And, each is free to take the advice, or to leave it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Tomorrowneverknows,

Are you still participating in this thread?

Ive read all of your posts but none of the other posts except those parts you have quoted in your replies. So what I have to say may have already been said.

Some women can only get aroused by seeing or experiencing the arousal of others, and it sounds like this is your wife. It would explain her inability to arouse you or show any sort of erotic arousal with out having already been highly stimulated by you (thus you are showing your arousal) or by watching porn.

The fact that your wife seems to focus on girl on girl action in order to become aroused, means that her arousal is based on feminine arousal, in other words, she has very strong lesbian tendencies. She may not be able to accept it and reject it outright, but I believe your wife is more homosexual than heterosexual.

You came clean about your affairs, therapy was initiated but life got in the way of dealing with your marriage. What seemed hopeful is now back in the rut, so you started another affair.

I strongly urge you to leave your wife. This is not a marriage that can be fixed because there are two HUGE stumbling blocks, when only ONE is needed to make reconciliation nearly impossible.

1. Her homosexual tendency. This alone would make a good sex life nearly impossible unless she was willing to bring in a third partner, another woman, on a regular basis. Not freaking likely!

2. She is completely closed off about her body, her intimate thoughts and feelings, her willingness to look at herself and appreciate what she sees. If this could be changed, your marriage would have a shot. But in order for this to be changed, it would take a strong focused effort on her part to do the hard work required.

My advice to you, therefor, is to make plans to divorce as amicable as possible. Promise to continue to be her partner, to take a bullet for her as you said earlier, but you cannot live a lie and your affairs combined with her lack of self awareness means your marriage is pretty much a lie.

While reading this thread I thought wouldn't it be funny if you guys got in to MC, then you made a secret appointment to confess all your affairs then demanded the MC allow them to stay a secret. Meanwhile your wife makes a secret appointment to confess she really likes girls but makes the MC agree to keep that a secret.

Your original question, are affairs okay in a sexless marriage? Lies are not okay. Sometimes we spend a lifetime lying to ourselves and it's not until we stop doing that when we finally realize those lies are what hurt the marriage. In your case, your wife has been lying about her sexuality, which caused your lies. Ya'll need to stop lying to each other.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm normally an advocate for non-traditional sexual arrangements and hell I dare even say I'm quite open-minded to reason, but unfortunately I still see no satisfactory excuse to cheat. "Being absolute causes issues", yes - nothing is always black and white. But not everything is grey either:

Even in open marriages, there is honesty, even in friends with benefits, there is honesty, even with swingers, there is honesty. All these are avenues for romantic arrangements that are suited to (almost) everyone's individual desires. We're no longer living in the past, sex is out in the open. And I say almost because the only arrangements that can't be accepted are those where one or more parties suffer for another's pleasure; such as infidelity.

A man who can't keep it in his pants or a woman who can't stop spreading her legs would find much more satisfaction in other arrangements either than making vows promising fidelity and exclusitivity, and they won't lead on those who are serious about it. Hence I still see no plausible justification.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> Taking an absolute stance is perfectly acceptable. Standing by it may cause a problem, expecting everyone else to agree will certainly create a problem but the individual is well able to have an absolute stance on any issue they wish too.
> 
> I have a personal *rule *about infidelity and it sits well with me and in my life. Zero tolerance, no exceptions, no excuses.
> 
> I stand by my original sentiment that cheaters are weak willed. They are not only lying to the ones they allegedly love but they are cheating themselves out of a life of dignity.


I didn't say that taking an absolutist stance was unacceptable, but I did say it was problematic. As you point out, standing by the absolutist stance is one of the places where problems arise. If one is willing to live with the problems, then it works. But, if one is expecting that there should be a consensus or agreement on that absolutist rule and hostility and discord emerge when that isn't the case, then one has to look at how and why the conversation has come up. 

If one is taking an absolutist stance in one's personal life, then one is doing something very different from taking an absolutist stance that one considers other people should agree with as a rule. Rules for governing people as a collective aren't the same as rules for governing the self.

I do think that it is possible to discuss the issue without things becoming personal. I also think it's important to see that discussing this issue as a personal situation requires different factors than doing so abstractly.

I think that this thread had become sort of twisted and half the conversation has to do with the abstract aspect and the other half has to do with the personal. I think that different definitions are needed for each of those tasks and the lack of definition is what is causing people to clash.

Disagreement does not need to invite attacks on character. That is something so often seen in religious fundamentalism of every religion and the outcome is less than pleasant. Making a rule about something and expecting agreement about it is tricky territory. And, so definitions are important, as is open dialogue about the issue.

Let me make something else clear. I am not advocating cheating. I think that a whole lot of other options are preferable to cheating.

Personally, I do agree with much of the sentiment on this thread, that cheating is a weak-willed, cowardly action. It seeks to gratify the self at the expense of another who has prior claim on the domain that controls the supply needed for gratification. I, personally, believe that it is more virtuous to suffer without than to cheat another. Not all people agree with that. I agree that cheating is undignified. I don't want to be dignified, so I don't cheat; but that is my personal perspective and not a universal thing. Some people do not object to reprehensible actions. 

Additionally, it is possible to imagine situations when one reprehensible actions not as bad as another. Which is why I think that the paradigms of fidelity need a separate discussion because asking "are there any circumstances under which cheating is not the worst of the available choices?" is not the same question as "should I cheat on my wife because she won't give me what I want and I don't want to compromise?"


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> We don't all have to agree. We are each able to make up our own minds, obviously. However, those of us with the "absolutist stance", as you call it, are free to maintain that stance if we so choose. Which many of us do, in any circumstance. One does not have to agree with me, or C2W, or anyone else on "this side" of the debate. If one can sleep well at night while standing by their own stance on the issue, more power to them. I couldn't if I tried to rationalize cheating in any situation.


I agree that we do not all have to be in consensus about the topic. We neither need to agree across the board, not set up black and white distinctions, though. I don't see this as an either/or situation because discussing a thing on a forum abstractly isn't the same as doing a thing in one's life or advising another to do that thing. 

I also do not malign the concept of an absolutist stance in personal matters, but see an issue when it comes to enforcement. No-tolerance policies are often very effective in one's personal life because they become useful boundaries. But, again, those are personal and subjective, don't you think?

I, too, have yet to meet a cheater who was behaving in an honorable, virtuous, dignified manner. I suspect that it would be an unlikely thing.

However, I can imagine a situation in which it would be acceptable. Let's look at a fictional example; Person A is married to Person B. Person B is in a coma and has been in one for 5 years, but isn't brain dead. Person A hasn't given up hope that Person B will wake up and seeks a way to wake B from the coma. Person A is tempted by an opportunity to connect with someone sexually. Person A takes the opportunity. Is this cheating? Technically, yes. Is it wrong? Debatable. Depends on values.

So, I can see that there would be exceptions possible. For that reason, I cannot say there are NO circumstances in which cheating is wrong. 

Unfortunately, most people who are asking these kinds of questions do not have spouses in comas for many years, nor even spouses who are incarcerated for life, or missing or anything else. This exact situation (spouse is missing, presumed dead) is what is at the heart of "The Scarlet Letter", in fact. Most people are weak and cowardly, willing to exploit the weaknesses of another rather than face personal hardship. I do not think those actions are good. In my opinion, if you make a commitment, you are expected to honor it -- even when the going gets rough. 

Taking one side or another in a discussion, of course, has nothing to do with my personal view-point or how I would personally implement my personal choices. I do not see this as a "pro-cheating" or "anti-cheating" stance, but a "possible exceptions in extreme circumstances" vs "no exceptions ever under the sun even at penalty of death" stance; In many countries, the penalty for cheating is death and generally Americans don't like the attitudes of those countries. There is lots of room for disagreement, here, and it can be done politely without "taking sides", I think. I don't think there is anything wrong with defending a personal opinion; the part that I find uncomfortable is when people are assigning value judgments to opinions that extend to character when others do not agree with the initial personal opinion. I think that isn't nice. I think it isn't conducive to dialogue because it's making an impersonal thing personal. I, personally, think that it would better to calm down and find some distance between ourselves and the issue to prevent clashing.




Maricha75 said:


> Here's the thing. If I am being asked my opinion on the subject, I give my opinion on it. It doesn't matter if one is a swinger or living in a country where divorce is not an option. If I am asked what my opinion is of cheating in XYZ situation, my opinion does not change. If I am asked for an opinion, it is because someone WANTS the opinion of others, not just to go by their own feelings on the subject. IOW. If my cousin, who has very different values from me, were to ask for my opinion on this very subject, my response would remain the same. If someone from Thailand, or India, or any other country, were to ask my opinion on this very subject, my response would still remain the same. Why? Because MY values don't change. It has nothing to do with cultural norms or the like. It has everything to do with personal opinion. And, each is free to take the advice, or to leave it.


If you are giving your opinion, then it makes sense that your opinion would not change. I don't think anyone believes that your opinion has to change. Your opinion is informed by your personal values and the cultural context of your life.

If you are advising another person, however, it isn't just about your personal opinion. It is about taking into account the specific circumstances of that other person and what would be best in that person's situation. Of course, that's how I see it and you don't have to see it that way. If *I* were advising someone, *I* would take that person's life into account rather than comment based on my life, considering the consequences in that particular situation. My values don't change in that instance because I am living according to my personal values. 


I have no personal stake in this conversation, just an intellectual curiosity. I have no loyalties to either "camp" or "side" either. In my own life, my husband cheated on me and that left me pretty broken. I am NOT a fan of cheaters. If you've read my other posts, you know that I thing cheating is vile. But, taking my personal issues into an intellectual discussion isn't fair to the discussion or people involved in it. Of course, that is entirely my opinion. I am not "pro-cheating" in the slightest bit. I am "pro-dialogue" and also "anti-absolutism" when it comes to interaction, however. And, in general, I believe that if one isn't happy with one's marriage, one should either end the marriage or seek an open marriage, instead of harming a person to whom one is committed for personal gain -- but that is dependent on a whole bunch of conditions and I wouldn't call it an absolute rule when it comes to giving advice.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

moxy said:


> If you are advising another person, however, it isn't just about your personal opinion. It is about taking into account the specific circumstances of that other person and what would be best in that person's situation. Of course, that's how I see it and you don't have to see it that way. If *I* were advising someone, *I* would take that person's life into account rather than comment based on my life, considering the consequences in that particular situation. My values don't change in that instance because I am living according to my personal values.


The difference, moxy, is that I cannot, in good conscience, ever advise someone, no matter what the circumstances, that infidelity of any sort is acceptable. If you can, that's your choice. But because of the moral implications, I cannot do it. I cannot advise someone to do anything that I believe to be morally wrong. IOW, if someone were to ask for advice, not just an opinion, I could not, in good conscience, advise them to do something against MY OWN moral ethics.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> The difference, moxy, is that I cannot, in good conscience, ever advise someone, no matter what the circumstances, that infidelity of any sort is acceptable. If you can, that's your choice. But because of the moral implications, I cannot do it. I cannot advise someone to do anything that I believe to be morally wrong. IOW, if someone were to ask for advice, not just an opinion, I could not, in good conscience, advise them to do something against MY OWN moral ethics.



The beauty of there being so many different kinds of people in the world is that each one has a unique experience of it. Similar and overlapping at times, yes, but also unique. People generally do what sits well with the conscience. And that makes perfect sense. I don't see anything wrong with you following the guidance of your conscience and I doubt you see anything wrong with me following mine, because neither of us needs permission to be who we are. 

I notice that you brought up the choice, too, and I think that is also important. You don't have to agree with anyone else. And, no one has to agree with you either. And, neither of those things is necessarily bad. I don't know about you, but I have spent a great deal of my life feeling at war with the expectation to please those I care about and to follow my own instincts. I compromise often, but there are core issues on which I will not compromise. I am sure it is that way with you, too -- that is, there are things about which you don't compromise.

But, on a forum, sometimes people can get divisive and jump into an almost mob-mentality mode where the issue being discussed becomes totally black and white and anyone who isn't on one side is the baddie on the other. And, when that happens, people end up attacking each other personally, without even meaning to. So things get all inflamed. The purpose of my posts on this thread haven't been to pick a side and try to get everyone onto it; I don't see a value in that. "Live and let live" is better in my book than "Jump on my bandwagon or get ostracized". 

I noticed that this thread got a little derailed and things were being seen as personal when they didn't need to be. My purpose was simply to demonstrate that this isn't a black and white issue, so there's no need to make it a black white issue and let an otherwise interesting opportunity devolve into a flame-war.

I like and respect many of the opinions of many of the posters on TAM and I think that the diversity of opinions, perspectives, values, and ideas creates opportunities for lively discussion and open-minded exploration of ideologies. Debating an idea isn't the same as attacking a person and in charged situations, those lines are blurred. I like those conversations better when they don't turn personal, so this is my attempt at saying so.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

We all have our own personal morals, standards, and boundaries that we would never cross, nor would we advise others to cross them. I don't know anyone who would advise someone who has been cheated on to go and murder the other man or woman...why? Murder is almost universally seen as immoral and wrong. Regardless of how angry or how hurt someone is over the wrong someone else has done them, murder simply _isn't_ a moral response to any action that has been done to us. 

Regardless of the circumstances in which we find ourselves, cheating is an immoral, and therefore, unjustifiable response to anything that happens in marriage. Period. The conversation ends there for me.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

This problem isn't going to go away. Try some sex therapy/MC, and if that doesn't help then separate. You don't want to end up very bitter in ten or fifteen years. 
Have you been very open with her about the fact that you need more frequent sex, and you need her to communicate to you what she does like?


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## soc487 (Jul 22, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :
> OP, be a good person, do the right thing, divorce your wife, let her go, let her find another love. You will not life forever, do you want to be dishonest and untrustworthy for the rest of your life? You made a terrible mistake, do not repeat it again, or karma will one day bite you so hard you'll never recover.



The thing is, many people consider divorce to be FAR WORSE than being unfaithful. Certainly it would have been considered far worse in previous generations. Divorce is visible, financial, abandonment, separation and a crystallization of failure into a permanent state. Being unfaithful while wrong, is an act or state that can be stopped and finished. It does not need to have financial, or separation consequences, and can be forgiven. 

In this circumstance, there is no "right thing", neither divorce, nor continuing in adultery. Both are wrong. But divorce is permanent. 
Think very hard before you take such an irrevocable decision. Maybe counselling can help you decide.


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## soc487 (Jul 22, 2013)

sinnister said:


> Avoiding sex with your partner is the betrayal. That effectively breaks the bond and covenant you made to God and your partner on the day of marriage. What you're left with is a business arrangement. A shell of what once was. I've come to grips with that. But If I ever choose to "stray" my conscience is clear. A grown adult who understands consequences needs to understand that withholding sex results in a partner cheating. Just like the cheating partner needs to understand that the consequence of cheating is likely divorce. Sucks all around but such is life in a sexless existence.


This is SO true, all of it. But the withholding partner does not necessarily know they are walking so close to the edge. For them, sex is unimportant, and they can't understand what the fuss is all about. Try talking to them, and the response can be "don't bother me with your needs". You end up feeling like a meal ticket. Providing a home, money, stability, fun vacations, support, everything that is good about a loving family life. But still she denies you sex. She just doesn't get it. Is infidelity OK? No. But you feel trapped, duped, imprisoned in a state of celibacy. Is infidelity OK? No, but it is understandable. Two wrongs don't make a right. But all too often the first does lead to the other. And the withholding partner should realise the risk to their marriage, and do something about it before it's too late.


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## soc487 (Jul 22, 2013)

Holland said:


> Cheating is for the weak willed. There is no excuse for it ever.


How strong do you have to be to put up with a sexless marriage for decades? Not many people are that strong. But divorce is so destructive, harmful to children, and permanent. Everyone has their breaking point.


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## soc487 (Jul 22, 2013)

Terry_CO said:


> No.
> 
> End the relationship first. Then start a new one  Don't be scum.


I sometimes wonder if the people who jump to this conclusion (End it and move on) are the younger ones, who perhaps don't have children. My parents divorced 35 years ago. It still affects me today. 

It's complicated. There are no easy answers, and divorce may not be the easy answer that some think it is, if there are children and the marriage works well on other levels.


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