# Not sure where to go from here...?



## NickClarke (Jul 3, 2016)

This is my first time posting on here. I've been married for about 3.5 years and together with my wife for about 6 years in total. We've always argued a bit but have seemed to find a way past it. About three years ago we lost a baby after three months. After that happened I became quite distant and felt that my wife did as well. We struggled getting past this, our arguments got worse and never tried for a child again. My wife has told me that she's fallen out of love with me and doesn't know how she feels, but that she doesn't love me like she should and thinks of me more as a friend and isn't attracted to me. Over the last year our arguments have been getting worse and worse. She's told me that she wants us to separate and about two months ago I finally moved out. Despite the fact that I have never been unfaithful she doesn't trust me and constantly accuses me of seeing other people or being interested in other women. I've spent a long time trying to convince her to go to counselling and she finally agreed to, however it's been so long that I feel that it's too little too late, and although she's willing to I want her to WANT to go and to want to fix our marriage. This last week we had a massive argument and have since decided to get a divorce. My way of coping is to distract myself as much as possible, I've spent time with my friends and gone to see my parents, however when she called me earlier she was angry with me for getting on with my life and said I was clearly over it already. I never wanted to get a divorce and would rather have sorted out issues out, however I feel that our arguments have become so toxic and we have so little trust left between us that I don't feel that we can rescue anything. I don't know whether we should still try the counselling or if we just need to say our goodbyes but either way I feel that we both have a right and deserve to be happy, I just don't know if we can do that together. I'm not sure there is a question in any of this other than to get other people's perspectives, opinions of people that aren't connected to the situation and maybe help me see it from the outside.

Thanks

NC


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

My sister is a therapist who does a lot of marriage and family therapy. She tells me most men end up feeling like they stayed too long, but that is probably a good thing. When you do finally leave you will feel content that you tried everything possible to make it work. Which is better than wondering for the rest of your life if you skipped out too soon.

Try the marriage counseling. Read books. But if there aren't substantial improvements both near term and over the course of 6 - 12 months, pull the plug. You'll both be better off ending it rather than letting it linger even after it becomes clear there is no hope. If you're lucky, marriage counseling will be what you need. The best outcome would be a happy marriage results for both of you. I hope you find it, but if not don't be afraid to declare the marriage over.

I'm sorry for the loss of your child. I cannot imagine how hard that must be for both of you.


----------



## NickClarke (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks for your thoughts Thor. The problem I am coming up against most at the moment is that I'm feeling quite frustrated and can't see a positive outcome and my wife has said that it's not fair for her to have to wait for me to decide what I want so I have to make a decision now, but I feel like I have been waiting for such a long time for her to love me again as I hear so much from her that she doesn't. I feel that we're both responsible but I have so much of the blame put at my door. I find it interesting what your sister says. I don't feel that I've stayed too long, but I do feel that apart from counselling I have done everything that I can to fix things. I've suggested that we both need to change and make changes, but I get resistance to that along the lines of "I shouldn't have to change for anyone". I guess the ending of the marriage is one of the things I'm most scared of as I don't like giving up on anything and this in itself is as much of a personal fault as a good thing as i seemingly have an inability to admit defeat and accept that something is over.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Look for a counselor up to date on PTSD counseling. The loss of a baby has left you both damaged. Simply divorcing is simply running from a problem tha just isn't going to go away. Good luck


----------



## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

Nick, I am so sorry for your loss! The death of a child is absolutely the most traumatizing event a couple can experience.

You and your wife are struggling with what's called "Complicated grief", it's a paralyzing reaction to sudden and traumatic loss. Usually, it's difficult if not downright impossible to uncover the "Cause" for people's problems, but in your case this is not so.

This isn't a marital issue, per se..although obviously it has impacted that..it's a shared grief issue. Your marriage is collateral damage.

Regardless of what you do in or with your actual marriage, this needs to be addressed. You will find it unfortunately will paralyze you regardless.

Call a psychologist and talk with him/her about your marriage in context of this shared tragedy and begin the healing process. The work on both issues is intertwined.


----------



## NickClarke (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks Unicas and Chaparal. All that makes sense and it definitely seems like that's something that has affected us. The other problem I have though is that after so long it's really difficult to get to grips with everything. My wife used to party quite a bit before the pregnancy, and has since resumed. I don't mind going out and drinking but she will drink at home and I find this difficult to deal with. It's selfish of me, but I see this as quite selfish behaviour. If it were a glass or two that would be fine, but we're talking a bottle or more 3-4 nights a week. I've tried confronting her about it and she says that she'll stop but every time she has a bad day at work she'll drink or she'll go out with her colleagues at the last minute (even to the point where I had to cancel dinner reservations because she changed her mind). I don't like mentioning this stuff to people as I feel like I'm bad mouthing her behind her back, but it's difficult to want to be with someone who, it feels, never wants to put their spouse first. I on the other hand will lie to friends and family and cancel plans with them to make sure that we do what she wants to and that I am there for her. I guess it feels like it's very one sided and that our loss is sometimes used as an excuse for her behaviour whenever it gets really bad. We've argued to the point where we eventually decided that I should move out, and I have but now I just get doubt and accusations. I guess now that I don't have to deal with the drinking and feeling like second place to everything else in her life I'm stuck in this place between longing for our old relationship back and glad that I can focus on me for a bit and I feel guilty and horrible for that.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You can't fix an alcoholic she has to do that herself. Don't leg this drag you down.

Your best bet is to tell her get into AA and start working with you on the marriage or get out.

You don't have much time invested but you could waste years on this with the same outcome.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I suggest two books for you. "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. R. Glover, and "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by Manuel Smith.

You seem to be feeling responsible for bailing your wife out when she makes bad choices. You can't do that for her. And you're making excuses or allowances for unacceptable behavior. Frequently drinking to excess is unacceptable behavior. Lying to your friends and having to change your plans is an unacceptable burden placed on you by her behavior.

PTSD and/or Stockholm Syndrome seem to fit your situation. We see it a lot, and I for sure stayed in a bad marriage far far too long putting up with the unacceptable. What would you say to a close friend or brother who told you the things you've told us?

I think seeing a good therapist might be good for you. Your work should offer EAP (Employee Assistance Program) where you get free and completely confidential counseling. Your employer will never know you went. Or you could see someone outside of EAP. Your thinking is distorted and you need someone in real life to talk to who can give you some unbiased perspective.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

NickClarke said:


> I've been married for about 3.5 years and together with my wife for about 6 years in total. We've always argued a bit but have seemed to find a way past it.


Nick, how bad was her behavior during the first 3 years of your relationship -- before losing you unborn baby? Specifically, did you see her start creating arguments, over nothing at all, so as to push you away during that first 3 years (after her infatuation started to evaporate at about 6 months)? I ask because it is unclear whether all of her current behavior can be attributed to the loss of your baby or, rather, to issues she had before you started the relationship six years ago.



> Despite the fact that I have never been unfaithful she doesn't trust me and constantly accuses me of seeing other people or being interested in other women.


Again, did she exhibit warning signs of having irrational jealousy -- i.e., being unable to trust you -- BEFORE losing your child?


----------



## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

NickClarke said:


> Thanks Unicas and Chaparal. All that makes sense and it definitely seems like that's something that has affected us. The other problem I have though is that after so long it's really difficult to get to grips with everything. My wife used to party quite a bit before the pregnancy, and has since resumed. I don't mind going out and drinking but she will drink at home and I find this difficult to deal with. It's selfish of me, but I see this as quite selfish behaviour. If it were a glass or two that would be fine, but we're talking a bottle or more 3-4 nights a week. I've tried confronting her about it and she says that she'll stop but every time she has a bad day at work she'll drink or she'll go out with her colleagues at the last minute (even to the point where I had to cancel dinner reservations because she changed her mind). I don't like mentioning this stuff to people as I feel like I'm bad mouthing her behind her back, but it's difficult to want to be with someone who, it feels, never wants to put their spouse first. I on the other hand will lie to friends and family and cancel plans with them to make sure that we do what she wants to and that I am there for her. I guess it feels like it's very one sided and that our loss is sometimes used as an excuse for her behaviour whenever it gets really bad. We've argued to the point where we eventually decided that I should move out, and I have but now I just get doubt and accusations. I guess now that I don't have to deal with the drinking and feeling like second place to everything else in her life I'm stuck in this place between longing for our old relationship back and glad that I can focus on me for a bit and I feel guilty and horrible for that.


Nick I got this.

She's drinking b/c she's depressed. Really, you guys need some help here. Your "Old" relationship is buried under a lot of things, it can help excavate it.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

NickClarke said:


> Thanks for your thoughts Thor. The problem I am coming up against most at the moment is that I'm feeling quite frustrated and can't see a positive outcome and my wife has said that it's not fair for her to have to wait for me to decide what I want so I have to make a decision now, but I feel like I have been waiting for such a long time for her to love me again as I hear so much from her that she doesn't. I feel that we're both responsible but I have so much of the blame put at my door. I find it interesting what your sister says. I don't feel that I've stayed too long, but I do feel that apart from counselling I have done everything that I can to fix things. I've suggested that we both need to change and make changes, but I get resistance to that along the lines of "I shouldn't have to change for anyone". I guess the ending of the marriage is one of the things I'm most scared of as I don't like giving up on anything and this in itself is as much of a personal fault as a good thing as i seemingly have an inability to admit defeat and accept that something is over.


Seems to me you never were in the marriage much. When you were need the most, you ran. Jeez. She says let's divorce and you already moved on? Jeez. 

You don't "wait" to make her love you. You "take action" to make her love you.

What have you done to repair the damage you did when you became "distant" after the death your child? What do you argue about? Your lack of commitment to the marriage?

Most of the time here at TAM we support the OP because we only hear his or her story. But you paint a good picture (for me at least) to support your wife.


----------



## NickClarke (Jul 3, 2016)

In answer to some of the questions, we always argued and she has always been a drinker. I will drink if we go out with friends or have A beer with dinner if we're out, I only get really drunk once every couple of months when I meet up with some old friends for a catch up and will sleep on the sofa so as not to wake her. Arguments will be over how little I do round the house, in context I will clean the whole flat and then she will do nothing to help keep it clean so I get into a destructive cycle of not doing anything until next time she gets angry about it. She always said I don't earn enough money, but I'm always bailing her out at the end of the month when she ran out of money. Most of the time she runs out of money is because she won't budget for her month and gets parking tickets every month that cost her £1-200 in total, I then run out of money towards my pay day as I have had to pick up in these.

When we got married I moved towns to live with her, I didn't like my job at the time but I made the effort to get a new job. She said she wanted me to earn more money and I have tried job hunting for quite some time but it took well over a year for me to get a better job. This coincided with me moving out and us separating which made her angry as she felt that I had job hunted to spite her. She complained that I didn't drive (I'd never needed to) so I eventually passed my test last year. My parents gave me their old car when my dad retired and she holds this against me as she feels that it is unfair that I have a new car for free and she has an old one.

When we argue I only argue facts, she will throw insults and call me names and say hurtful things about my past. She will use things that I have said to her in confidence as ammo.

She's always had a problem with me having female friends and she says that it's weird, however I think it's normal to be friends with a woman and not want to have sex with them.

I appreciate that it sounds like I am running away and have just given up, but I have been told for over a year that my wife doesn't love me, that I'm not good enough, her family don't respect me, that I'm spineless and a whimp as I won't just leave when I've been waiting hopefully that she'll come round thinking this is just because of the miscarriage and I would like to think it is, but I can't remember a time that we didn't argue. I've been arguing the case for marriage counselling for years and she until a couple of weeks has completely refused saying that it's just us slinging mud infront of a stranger, but I don't see what harm it could have if there's even a chance that it will help us fix something that we haven't been able to fix ourselves. Don't get me wrong and think me being distant has been a constant, I have my own ways of coping and although I am not over everything with the pregnancy, I decided that the best way to help her was to try and continue normally to support her as I had been doing previously, that clearly wasn't the right thing to do but even at this point she refused to go to any sort of counselling, her therapy was to go out with friends and drink or drink at home. 

Having someone tell you constantly that they don't love you, that they're not attracted to you and that they want you to leave is a great way for them to make you not only feel worthless but it prepared me for what I was starting to feel was inevitable. Yes it hurts like hell, yes I'd like to rewind the clock and fix everything before our relationship got toxic. I've always said that it's six of one half a dozen of the other and that it requires both of us to make the effort but I feel like until two months ago it was only me making the effort. I've always been willing to change but surely like any part of a relationship it has to be a two way street?


----------



## NickClarke (Jul 3, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Seems to me you never were in the marriage much. When you were need the most, you ran. Jeez. She says let's divorce and you already moved on? Jeez.
> 
> You don't "wait" to make her love you. You "take action" to make her love you.
> 
> ...


I was devoted to the marriage from the very beginning, I appreciate your giving your opinion otherwise why would I post on a forum, I did absolutely everything I could go support my wife, planning holidays so she could do things that are on her bucket list, cooking her favourite meal whenever she wanted, planning trips out and this carried on for a long time, I tried to create structure and normalcy in a situation that was anything but "that" is how I became distant and cold by trying to make her feel like things were normal, by not giving in to my emotions, by bottling up all the pain from the loss of a child so that I could support her emotionally and she wouldn't feel that she was having to support me constantly, to make her feel that what she was going through was important to me. I didn't run away from our marriage, I didn't give up on my wife, I did everything I could to try and make things work at a very difficult time and, maybe, this was the wrong way to be, but I thought it was the best way at the time. I didn't try to make her love me, you're right. I tried to make her feel loved, and I think that's more important and that there's a difference.


----------



## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Do you know if she is seeing someone else during her time out with friends. What she has been saying to you it sounds like she might have found someone else. With the I don't love you anymore, I am not attacted to you and accuesing you of seeing others. 

I have read this many times on other threads where the wife was having a EA or PA going on. 

If this is the case part of the anger directed at you may be the guilt she is feeling if she is cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mist42 (Jul 6, 2016)

Whatever is happening (from the information you've given us) relates to the loss of the baby (which assumably you already know since you brought it up) and she is linking that to you.

She can't come to you, because dealing with you is "family" and relates to the lost child. She can't go anywhere else because @work that's showing weakness (goodbye career), and would make her a pity underdog @ her girls circle (and if they're party girls, that would make her a charity/outcast pretty damn quick). Likewise going to her parents is too much like running to mummy/daddy and admitting total failure as a woman and mother. As you might guess none of those options are nice, but the bottle never judges, and drinking _enough_ (there's the clue) makes sleep come and memories slide away, and gives a tiny bit of allowance in letting slip control that lets her admit her sadness to herself even if it is only between her and the booze.

the more you condemn the booze, and the more you condemn the drinking behaviour, the _worse_ you are making her feel - the more she will get the feeling she shouldn't let you down, shouldn't be a burden, shouldn't be upset, shouldn't live in the past, and that in feel bad and not coping makes her worse as a person and useless.... you can see how that goes around in circles and she'll hold up for a day or two, but it takes so much effort E.V.E.R.Y. .S.I.N.G.L.E. .D.A.Y. that she tires and can't be the "happy singing dancing fun person she was", and again down comes her world....and the only solace is in a bottle for another night.

Hopefully if you can understand what I'm trying to say you'll realise that solving her depression and loss is beyond you as a single individual/husband. And that hopefully you understand now that you have to be tolerant of the immediate behaviour but find a good grief counsellor to help her deal with this _total_ disruption to her world.


----------



## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

The issue here as I continue to read thru all this is what exactly do you want from us, what would be helpful? You're in this pattern now of explaining yourself to us, much in the same way as you do her.

Personally, I still think you're both depressed. That you always argued only confirms that. That it got worse after the loss only more so. Happy people don't argue....if it's with the facts or with insults... they don't go out and drink, and they don't need other female friends to substitute for what they don't have. Let's not paint in soft pastels what should be bright and bold primary colors.

I'd recommend you go out to dinner somewhere nice one night and very gently ask her if she's happy in the marriage and if she wants to continue. Then, make some very easy observations about her behavior that would suggest otherwise to you, as well as your inability or unwillingness to continue this way. And without therapy, you see no future. The idea that she refuses therapy in the face of such obvious dysfunction is just absurd.

This will not get better on it's own, clearly the trajectory is down hill, and unless you stop pandering and explaining, you will be nothing more than an old, unhappy guy.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

You are dealing with two people.

1) Her when she is sober....and depressed.

2) Her when she is drinking....and uninhibited.

She does not know what she wants. All she "knows" is that she is unhappy.

When she is drinking she can succumb to become an infidel, in the marital sense.

Maybe she already has cheated and is "projecting" this "sin" onto you. 

Or she wants to try out other men. And she needs you to admit that you have already done the deed. She is looking for an excuse.

This is common behavior in some women before "making the leap" from being married to being "unencumbered". Her mind is frustrated. She is looking for some re-spite....de-spite the fact that you are not "a-cheatun".


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I find it extremely unfair of her to get angry at YOU for trying to cope and accuse you of "being over it", when SHE is the one who has been telling you she doesn't love you and was the one who wanted separation! Sorry but you cant have both. If she is now agreeable to counseling, by all means GO. Hopefully she will get into individual as well, as she clearly is in need of help. I feel bad for her that she is so overwhelmed with sadness and anger, but making you her punching bag is wrong. Actually IC would probably be helpful for you as well. I have the same feeling as others, that quite possibly she is (or was) cheating...usually those accusations without reason/red flags come from a guilty party.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

NickClarke said:


> My wife has told me that she's fallen out of love with me and doesn't know how she feels, but that she doesn't love me like she should and thinks of me more as a friend and isn't attracted to me. Over the last year our arguments have been getting worse and worse. She's told me that she wants us to separate and about two months ago I finally moved out. Despite the fact that I have never been unfaithful she doesn't trust me and constantly accuses me of seeing other people or being interested in other women.


Those 4 items are all classic red flags of her having an affair, either currently or in the near past. Asking you to leave is also a red flag of her wanting to start something up with someone in particular.

Personally I don't see how you rescue this marriage. If you try, some form of full honesty is going to be required of her.


----------

