# What a mess! (my story)



## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

Hello! I'm relatively new here, but I've been doing my best to help others before posting my own thread.

First off, I'd like to thank everyone who replied to my posting advice thread. I was out of town all weekend so I think I have my thoughts together enough to post now. This will be my background post, and I'll probably link it in my signature as a reference to any other threads I make in other sections of the forum. I'm sorry in advance for the length, but I will try to be as concise as possible. Questions for clarification are definitely welcome.

*Husband:* 23 years old, AD Army (currently deployed), refuses all counseling, multiple EA's and possible multiple PA's in the past
*Me:* 28 years old, SAHM, currently in IC with a LCSW (social worker), currently having a pseudo-EA with a best friend of 5 years
*Children:* 2 year old daughter with severe eczema, food allergies, and asthma/RAD
*Trouble:* During the past 3.5 years, our marriage has been pretty toxic with a breakdown on pretty much all fronts
*Seeking:* Advice on how to proceed

H and I married after a little less than 4 months of knowing each other, but we spent the majority of that time together discussing past, present, and future in our lives. My husband came from a pretty dark place ( physical/sexual/emotional abuse, adoption/broken homes, drug addicted birth parents) so he had to grow up rather quickly and was set in what he wanted out of life (military career and a family). So when we married, it was after a lengthy discussion of how much work it really takes to have a lasting marriage. He was told that having children would be difficult if not impossible, but he remained hopeful. He also expressed to me that he was very much against drinking/smoking because of his family history.

The real trouble started when we got our first duty station (2008). We were without a car for the first few months so while he was at work I was stuck at home. After we got our car, he started having longer days, lots of 24 hour duty, and some overnight duty. Well that's what he told me at first anyway. I found out later that he was spending lots of time drinking and talking to strippers due to trouble he was having at work. We started arguing a lot because he stopped talking to me about anything saying that I "couldn't understand" what he was going through. He became very secretive, and he would get angry if I had his phone. Women were calling him, and I found various pictures both of which he explained away saying that he was letting other people borrow his phone.

2009-2010 went by with only a few big blowouts because I found out that I was pregnant (2 months along) that July, and he left on his first deployment in August. Before I found out that pregnant, he flipped out at our neighbor's daughter's birthday party binge drinking and telling me that I wasn't his mother and he hadn't had time to "enjoy himself" like I had. I was taken aback because I always tried to give him time to go out and have fun, even before we got married. He made it home in time to see our daughter be born, but before he left (I was 10 days postpartum) he guilt-tripped me into having sex with him saying that I didn't find him attractive anymore and that all he wanted to do was make love to me just in case he died in combat.

When he returned home from deployment in August of 2010, I thought that things were better. Our daughter suffers from severe eczema, and she contracted MRSA so going through that brought us a little closer together. I found out later from him that on two occasions while he was out "running errands" he was out with two separate girls, but he said he didn't do anything with them even though both times he was naked/almost naked with them. I was only able to get him to tell me these things after giving him a "forgiveness pass". During that time I also found an alternate email he created to communicate with women while he was overseas. He was taking them on "dates" to his dance classes, but he said that it was an "experiment" and that he hadn't been physical with any of them. 

2011 was full of arguments over pretty much everything/anything, and increased hostility from H. He would get angry and go blow money that we didn't really have. We have a huge hole in our hallway and 2 holes in our bedroom wall from his anger issues. He was rarely home because he found any excuse to be gone. He was very mean to our daughter and myself, but blamed things on me. He almost died of alcohol poisoning early in the year. He consistently refused any sort of MC or IC. He started stripping on the side, and was angry that I asked him to stop even though it was costing money instead of bringing in any. During Thanksgiving he pulled a knife and threatened to commit suicide after humiliating me sexually in front of guests. On New Year's Eve he told me that our relationship was over, and that our marriage was irreparable. I told him that he needed to file for divorce if he felt that way, but he refused saying that he wasn't going to be the "bad guy". 

Since he's been deployed he has talked about us needing to "relearn" each other and reconnect when he gets home. He says that he's definitely different, but he can't explain it so I'll just have to "see". I told him that I didn't want to try and "work things out" while he's overseas because nothing can be fixed with him being thousands of miles away. He asked me why we get along so well when we're not together and said that since that's the case he's definitely going to try to join Delta because they leave at the drop of a dime with no communication allowed.

The bad part is that what I've typed barely scrapes the surface of everything going on. Thanks to anyone who made it through, and I am thankful for any advice/insight anyone can offer.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

My bit of advice... File for divorce, now, UNLESS he gets into IC, for himself. He seems very unstable and dangerous. I would so much as go speak to his CO and tell them what you wrote here, so that you can be protected when you do file. 

Is there a reason you want to try and fix this guy? Because if it's love, you can love him from afar, but he seems very dangerous and unpredictable.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

Cherry said:


> My bit of advice... File for divorce, now, UNLESS he gets into IC, for himself. He seems very unstable and dangerous. I would so much as go speak to his CO and tell them what you wrote here, so that you can be protected when you do file.
> 
> Is there a reason you want to try and fix this guy? Because if it's love, you can love him from afar, but he seems very dangerous and unpredictable.


To be honest, I do love him very much and I'm still in love with the person he was/could be. I know that he is a good person, but for whatever reason he chooses to believe and behave otherwise. I also feel responsible because he is 5 years younger than me, and I've always been the "helper/fixer" type in all of my relationships (friends/family/romance).

My main motivator is my daughter though because she's already exhibiting that intense anger that he has without her ever seeing him be violent. I also don't want her to be raised in that kind of environment. I will admit also that I have hit him before during heated arguments or when I've found out about his indiscretions, and I've never been a violent person before.

The only reason why I haven't taken this to his CO is because I honestly don't want to endanger his career. He is a great soldier, and that's pretty much all he has going for him right now. If we do divorce, I want things to end as amicably as possible.

I asked him again recently if he would go to counseling, and he said that he was going over there because it's like it never happened once he gets home. I requested IC and/or MC once he got here, and he said that he'd go if I gave him a son. I have refused to have anymore children with him because of the way he has been with his daughter so he constantly tries to use that as a bargaining chip.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Sorry but I agree with Cherry

I really don't see ant redeeming qualities in this relationship.

Can't you cut him loose (divorce) without involving his CO?


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Before I reply, you should know I'm a U.S. Army veteran who was a drug and alcohol counselor for the Army. I married a soldier and was a military spouse for another ten years after my discharge. 

When soldiers are overseas, they lose most of their support network. Suddenly those drinking buddies aren't around to bolster their feelings, and they're left with a LOT of time to think and worry. Suddenly the little bit of support network they have left (spouses, children, and parents, usually) suddenly take on a new importance to them, even if they already had a strong bond. If there wasn't a strong bond, it grows even stronger. He's had time to think about where he's been wrong, and he's remembering the "good" things while trying to survive unpleasant conditions in a hostile environment. 

It sounds to me like your relationship is at its breaking point. You are reluctant to go to his commander because it does present a very real threat to his career. However, if he SELF-reports a problem, that threat drops significantly. If a commander orders him to undergo a psychiatric or alcohol evaluation, then it could result in discharge if he doesn't complete the program satisfactorily. However, if he reports a problem himself, and doesn't complete treatment, he will not be punished. The commander may become aware of the problem and later make a command referral, which flips back to the first condition, but he will have had a chance to address his problems with no threat to his career. 

Your husband is saying he wants to fix things. I think you should ask to see written evidence that he has referred himself to a counselor or speak directly to the counselor (we usually tried to get permission to contact family members of alcoholics to get a better picture of the "big" story of their usage.) Overseas there are limited resources to get counseling, but if he does a self-referral there it will follow into treatment when he gets home. Tell him you will not agree to have a child until after he's demonstrated at least a year (or two) of showing his commitment to his family and relationship, which you'll measure by seeing ZERO instances of questionable behavior with other females, and through his actions of consideration and kindness toward you and your daughter. You can tell him that a counselor can help you guys figure out exactly what that means for you as a couple, because it's a joint effort and not you dictating to him. 

In the meantime, you MUST stop flirting with this other guy. Period. You're not being committed, either, which means you are neglecting YOUR duties as a wife. You can hardly complain about him neglecting his if you think it's ok to excuse such behavior sometimes. It's all or nothing here.

Hope this helps. Good luck.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

overwhelmed, KathyB is giving you excellent advice. She knows what she is talking about. As a military spouse, I can relate to some of your problems. Mine came back from "the sandbox" in late 2003 with PTSD. Even after seeing a V.A. counselor for awhile, quitting, then starting up with another counselor last year, he's still pretty f***ed-up.

I had to leave when I didn't see a consistent commitment by my husband to get help and re-learn how to be a partner in our marriage.

I, too, still love the man I married. But that man hasn't been around for a long time. And I agree what everyone is advising here - cut all contact with the OM.


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## Encore DT (May 29, 2012)

Whether your husband self reports or you convince him to get professional help, I too agree that it's the only thing that could save your marriage. That and, of course, the termination of your "pseudo-EA". He will need all the support he can get from you, but it is ultimately up to him to decide and go through with it.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> I asked him again recently if he would go to counseling, and he said that he was going over there because it's like it never happened once he gets home. I requested IC and/or MC once he got here, and he said that he'd go if I gave him a son. I have refused to have anymore children with him because of the way he has been with his daughter so he constantly tries to use that as a bargaining chip.


It's like "what" has never happened? His cheating, the violence towards you, the anger towards you and your daughter, his demeaning attitude towards you, the emotional blackmailing (I'll tell you all about my indiscretions if you promise to forgive me), the guilting you to have sex (10 days after giving birth), the irresponsible spending, the lies, the reproductive blackmailing (I'll go to counseling if you give me a son) etc.? He even talks of taking a position so he's gone more, because y'all get along better? :scratchhead:

Have you come to terms with what he has done during your marriage? Your H does not sound like someone who wants to be married, or even dating one person at this point. Perhaps he is a good soldier, but he is not a good H, not even close.

I understand the fixer part, I really do. I hope you can find it in you to recognize that this might be beyond repair. 

On a side note, if you can take a look around TAM and notice the men/women who have betrayed their spouses, asking for advice on how to repair their marriage, being truly remorseful for their indiscretions, willing to take any steps necessary, you can see when someone wants their marriage to work. From what you say about how your husband is, he doesn't even seem to acknowledge how horrible a husband he has been to you.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

KathyBatesel said:


> Your husband is saying he wants to fix things.


If he gives her a son  Seriously though, that's what I'm trying to determine based on what she posted. 

alwaysoverwhelmed: has your H acknowledged the overwhelming amount of issues he's created in y'alls marriage?


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Sorry but I agree with Cherry
> 
> I really don't see ant redeeming qualities in this relationship.
> 
> Can't you cut him loose (divorce) without involving his CO?


I am going to speak with someone at JAG to get information about separation and divorce procedures. 
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KathyBatesel said:


> Before I reply, you should know I'm a U.S. Army veteran who was a drug and alcohol counselor for the Army. I married a soldier and was a military spouse for another ten years after my discharge.
> 
> When soldiers are overseas, they lose most of their support network. Suddenly those drinking buddies aren't around to bolster their feelings, and they're left with a LOT of time to think and worry. Suddenly the little bit of support network they have left (spouses, children, and parents, usually) suddenly take on a new importance to them, even if they already had a strong bond. If there wasn't a strong bond, it grows even stronger. He's had time to think about where he's been wrong, and he's remembering the "good" things while trying to survive unpleasant conditions in a hostile environment.
> 
> ...


It is helpful hearing from someone who has a military background. I understand the support system thing, but this isn't the first time he's wanted to "fix" things. This has been a much rougher deployment than last time obviously, so I have remained hopeful that he is sincere about making things work this time. I will definitely take heed of your advice, and I will discuss things with my husband.
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As for my psuedo-EA, there's a reason I call it that. My husband and I are naturally flirtatious people so that has actually never been an issue in our relationship. OM and I are actually more so cheerleaders in each other's relationships than anything else. We have only ever communicated via texting out of respect for our spouses, and we have both agreed that it should stay that way as long as we're married. I never hid/deleted any of my texts until my husband told me that he didn't want to see anything else in my phone from OM and insisted that I change his contact name to something else. 

Only in the past 6 months has our conversation really escalated to something more, but we have decided to take a step back to keep those feelings at bay and focus on being friends first because we are not trying to cross that line. We are committed to doing the best we can to work on our marriages because we love our spouses. Neither of us are trying to leave our marriages to be together, and if we were ever to be in a relationship it would done the right way. I have never dropped the ball in care or consideration for my husband because of OM. 

The only reason I had to stop giving my husband 150% of my time was because we had a child, but he was still upset. I try to keep communication open with him, but he always shuts down so I find other people to talk to only after trying him first. I try to keep our sex life active (5-7 times a week), but he wants it 3-5 times a day (no joke) even when the baby is awake.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I think you would benefit a lot from what Cherry pointed out: You can take a look at how remorseful people speak and act by browsing those topics on here. Like Cherry, I have serious doubts that your husband means it at all. It's more of the "I'll say sorry for long enough to get my way again" mentality. 

As for the OM, your follow up on it just tells me that you *are* having an EA - nothing pseudo about it. 

As far as talking to JAG, that's a good idea if you plan to end your marriage. You will find that you're entitled to support even before a divorce becomes final, although they will not do the divorce for you. I do recommend compiling any and all evidence of his infidelities that you may have if you decide to go this route.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

Cherry said:


> It's like "what" has never happened? His cheating, the violence towards you, the anger towards you and your daughter, his demeaning attitude towards you, the emotional blackmailing (I'll tell you all about my indiscretions if you promise to forgive me), the guilting you to have sex (10 days after giving birth), the irresponsible spending, the lies, the reproductive blackmailing (I'll go to counseling if you give me a son) etc.? He even talks of taking a position so he's gone more, because y'all get along better? :scratchhead:
> 
> Have you come to terms with what he has done during your marriage? Your H does not sound like someone who wants to be married, or even dating one person at this point. Perhaps he is a good soldier, but he is not a good H, not even close.
> 
> ...


You bring up a very good point. I've been feeling like he's just wanted to enjoy the "benefits" of being married while getting to live the single life. I have even brought it up to him before with no actions on his end to do otherwise.



Cherry said:


> If he gives her a son  Seriously though, that's what I'm trying to determine based on what she posted.
> 
> alwaysoverwhelmed: has your H acknowledged the overwhelming amount of issues he's created in y'alls marriage?


I honestly don't ever remember him acknowledging many, if any, of the things he has done. It's normally routed back to me being the one who "changed first". If he has, he normally follows up by doing "better" just long enough for me to think that maybe things will get back on track.

I am aware that this may be beyond repair because it takes two people to make a marriage work. There's only so much that I can do, and I feel that I have tried everything. I don't believe in trying to force people to do anything they don't want to do. I am very easy to please, and I really don't ask for much from him. So the ball is really in his court now.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> I think you would benefit a lot from what Cherry pointed out: You can take a look at how remorseful people speak and act by browsing those topics on here. Like Cherry, I have serious doubts that your husband means it at all. It's more of the "I'll say sorry for long enough to get my way again" mentality.
> 
> As for the OM, your follow up on it just tells me that you *are* having an EA - nothing pseudo about it.
> 
> As far as talking to JAG, that's a good idea if you plan to end your marriage. You will find that you're entitled to support even before a divorce becomes final, although they will not do the divorce for you. I do recommend compiling any and all evidence of his infidelities that you may have if you decide to go this route.


I honestly didn't think that I was having a full fledged EA, but thank you for bringing that to my attention. My situation was nothing close to what my understanding of an EA is. I would hate to lose such a good friend because he has helped balance that "fixer" part of me, but as I told him I have no problems cutting ties for the best interest of our marriages. I have prided myself on trying to go above and beyond for my husband and my marriage so an affair is definitely not something I want to be a part of in any way.

Thank you again for the suggestions regarding JAG. I didn't really want to talk to anyone connected with the military just yet, but my aunt (who has a very similar background to yours) said that it's first come first serve for assistance. As for support, I'm only concerned about support for my daughter. I have family that is prepared to help me until I get on my feet should I end up divorced.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Always, the behaviors you describe -- temper tantrums, verbal abuse, blame-shifting, emotional instability, lack of impulse control, rapid Jekyll-Hyde transformations, and suicide threat -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. Significantly, his having these traits -- even having them at a strong level -- does NOT necessarily mean he "has BPD." For that to be the case, the traits must be so severe that they satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD. Only a professional can make that determination.

Yet, even when BPD traits fall well short of that diagnostic threshold, they can make a spouse's life miserable and destroy a marriage. Moreover, after you've been living with a man for over three years, it is easy to spot the _red flags_ (i.e., strong occurrences of the traits) when you know what to look for. There is nothing subtle about temper tantrums, verbal abuse, and suicide threats while holding a knife. Hence, although I do not know whether your H has most BPD traits at a strong level, I believe you will spot any and all red flags that exist if you take time to read about them.


alwaysoverwhelmed said:


> My husband came from a pretty dark place ( physical/sexual/emotional abuse, adoption/broken homes, drug addicted birth parents).


Most abused children do not develop BPD. Such abuse, however, GREATLY raises the risk of doing so. A recent large scale study of American adults (J. of Clinical Psych., 2008) found that 70% of the BPDers reported having been abused or abandoned in childhood.


> He started stripping on the side, and was angry that I asked him to stop.


I haven't seen any statistics about _male_ strippers. For _female_ strippers, however, a strong association between stripping and BPD has been reported in several studies. That strong relationship was described, for example, by _Dr. Layden (Dept. of Psychiatry, Univ. of Penn.) _in 1999. She wrote:_Most strippers, as with other women who work in the sex industry, are adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse. Research indicates the number is between 60%-80%. One study found that 35% of strippers have Multiple Personality Disorder, 55% had Borderline Personality Disorder, and 60% had Major Depressive Episodes, These are severe psychiatric problems and many of them are connected to childhood sexual abuse. _ See full article at Life and Family: If pornography made us healthy, we would be healthy by now :: Catholic News Agency (CNA).​


> We have a huge hole in our hallway and 2 holes in our bedroom wall from his anger issues.


If your H is a BPDer (i.e., has strong BPD traits), he likely has been carrying enormous anger and self loathing inside since early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to say or do some minor thing that TRIGGERS the anger that is always there.

Has your H physically abused you? I ask because a recent Canadian study (pub. 2006) found a strong association between BPD and physical abuse. Specifically, it found that half of the wife batterers had full-blown BPD and nearly all of the others had another PD. See Romeo's Bleeding - When Mr. Right Turns Out To Be Mr. Wrong -- Health & Wellness -- Sott.net.


> He was very mean to our daughter and myself, but blamed things on me.


Because BPDers are convinced they are eternal victims, they typically perceive of their spouses as "The Perpetrator" -- the cause of every misfortune to befall them.


> He almost died of alcohol poisoning early in the year.


Drug abuse is common among BPDers because their emotional development typically is frozen at the level of a four year old. The result is that they have little impulse control and also lack the ability to manage their emotions -- resulting in frequent temper tantrums.


> He consistently refused any sort of MC or IC.


Low functioning BPDers are so absolutely miserable that they often will seek therapy to stop the pain. The vast majority of BPDers, however, are high functioning. Although excellent treatment programs are available, those HF BPDers are very resistant to seeking therapy and, even if they do go at the spouse's insistence, they rarely will stay in therapy long enough to make a difference.


> On New Year's Eve he told me that our relationship was over, and that our marriage was irreparable. ...but he refused [to file for divorce].


Whereas bipolar sufferers swing between mania and depression, BPDers flip back and forth between loving you and hating you. Moreover, that flip will usually occur in ten seconds, being triggered by something minor you say or do. It therefore is common for BPDers to announce their desire to leave you for a few days and then -- in ten seconds -- flip back to pleading "Please don't leave me." This is why the #2 best-selling BPD book is called _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!_


> I am thankful for any advice/insight anyone can offer.


As I said earlier, Always, I don't know whether your H has most BPD traits at a strong level. I've never met the man. I nonetheless am confident that you can spot the red flags if you read more about BPD traits to see if your H exhibits most of them at a moderate or strong level. An easy place to start reading is my brief description of them in Maybe's thread at My list of hell!. 

If that discussion rings a bell, I would suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two _by yourself _-- to obtain a candid opinion on what it is you are dealing with. Given what is at stake, I would not rely on the judgment of the social worker you've been seeing. What is needed is a professional with clinical experience and a PhD in psychology. This is important because, given that BPD is believed to be caused by both genetics and/or childhood abuse, there is a chance that -- if your H does have strong BPD traits -- he may have passed them on to your daughter. I also would suggest you read _Stop Walking on Eggshells,_ the best-selling BPD book that is targeted to the spouses. And, of course, I would be glad to discuss the issue with you here and point you to good online resources. Take care, Always.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Always, the behaviors you describe -- temper tantrums, verbal abuse, blame-shifting, emotional instability, lack of impulse control, rapid Jekyll-Hyde transformations, and suicide threat -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. Significantly, his having these traits -- even having them at a strong level -- does NOT necessarily mean he "has BPD." For that to be the case, the traits must be so severe that they satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD. Only a professional can make that determination.
> 
> If that discussion rings a bell, I would suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two _by yourself _-- to obtain a candid opinion on what it is you are dealing with. Given what is at stake, I would not rely on the judgment of the social worker you've been seeing. What is needed is a professional with clinical experience and a PhD in psychology. This is important because, given that BPD is believed to be caused by both genetics and/or childhood abuse, there is a chance that -- if your H does have strong BPD traits -- he may have passed them on to your daughter. I also would suggest you read _Stop Walking on Eggshells,_ the best-selling BPD book that is targeted to the spouses. And, of course, I would be glad to discuss the issue with you here and point you to good online resources. Take care, Always.


Thank you so much for that break down. I have been wanting to switch over to see a psychologist because I don't feel as though my IC has been doing much in terms of helping me gain understanding and possible direction with all of this. I had hoped that since she was a SW she would be more proactive in her suggestions, but it seems to just be a lot of "listening" on her end. Not that it's not appreciated or anything.


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## jane_ro (Jun 1, 2012)

if you really think giving him a chance is something that he needs now, you have to know the risks. 

1. He is violent. Think about this.
2. He's alcoholic. Think about this.
3. He fools around (this is way so low!). Think about this.

Over all, he is psychologically disturbed. If you think that love outweighs all the risks, think again.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

He's damaged. Probably not husband/father material. Sorry. You have to what's right for your daughter. Pulling a knife and threatening to comitt suicide. What happens if he does it again but this time rather hurt you?

Cherry is right. He seems unstable.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

jane_ro said:


> if you really think giving him a chance is something that he needs now, you have to know the risks.
> 
> 1. He is violent. Think about this.
> 2. He's alcoholic. Think about this.
> ...


Thank you for the reply. I don't think he's an alcoholic by any means. I know that love is not enough which is why I'm at this point and seeking advice from a neutral party.




sinnister said:


> He's damaged. Probably not husband/father material. Sorry. You have to what's right for your daughter. Pulling a knife and threatening to comitt suicide. What happens if he does it again but this time rather hurt you?
> 
> Cherry is right. He seems unstable.


You bring up two very good points. I am trying to make a decision that's best for my daughter. It's one of the main reasons why I am seriously considering separation/divorce. I do not want that cycle of damage and abuse to continue. As for the possibility of him hurting me, my family feels the same. I know that it only takes a second for things to escalate to that point so I am always mindful of that.

Thanks to everyone who replied so far. I am so very appreciative of the input you've all given me. It was difficult for me to find the strength to really face my situation.


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## sculley (Jun 6, 2012)

I have been through a little bit of this as well being military and married to a military man I would like to pm and talk to you if you feel more comfortable that way. Honestly I endured drunken fights as well with things being thrown at me and the kids various threats to go on deployment etc etc etc...If you have seen it I am sure I have endured it as well. My breaking point was one night after having the best sex with the hubby in awhile he said he was going to go to the garage play some games and have a few (a few never was a few with him that usually led to terrible behavior and blaming me for everything) it got so bad that night that I had to call his command take the kids and go to my grandmas house and file a MPO....I refused to come home until he started getting help for his drinking and that turned into me making a rule that for me to come home and try to reconcile that there would be no more alcohol abuse. TO make a long story short he's been clean for 6 months, our marriage is the best it has ever been and I am thankful that I stuck out all of the nasty parts of us. It's not perfect there is alot to work on but we are in the right direction. PM me if you want dear I can be a good ear.  I will be praying for you guys


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

sculley said:


> I have been through a little bit of this as well being military and married to a military man I would like to pm and talk to you if you feel more comfortable that way. Honestly I endured drunken fights as well with things being thrown at me and the kids various threats to go on deployment etc etc etc...If you have seen it I am sure I have endured it as well. My breaking point was one night after having the best sex with the hubby in awhile he said he was going to go to the garage play some games and have a few (a few never was a few with him that usually led to terrible behavior and blaming me for everything) it got so bad that night that I had to call his command take the kids and go to my grandmas house and file a MPO....I refused to come home until he started getting help for his drinking and that turned into me making a rule that for me to come home and try to reconcile that there would be no more alcohol abuse. TO make a long story short he's been clean for 6 months, our marriage is the best it has ever been and I am thankful that I stuck out all of the nasty parts of us. It's not perfect there is alot to work on but we are in the right direction. PM me if you want dear I can be a good ear.  I will be praying for you guys


Thanks so much Sculley! I'm so sorry you had to go through that, but I am so happy to hear that y'all are doing great now! My husband's drinking thankfully isn't an issue outside of a few isolated incidents. Unfortunately, it seems that everything else is out of whack. I would definitely love to have someone to PM to chat more about everything that has been going on since as I said in my OP, the things I mentioned barely scratch the surface of my situation.

I don't want to seem like I'm playing the "victim" card because I can see all of the issues I've probably created which haven't helped our marriage. I have my own problems and am far from perfect. However, I do know that in the grand scheme of things I have been a damn good wife no matter what has happened.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Something that hasn't been addressed yet is that you two married WAY too soon without really knowing each other - you were in the midst of your PEA-induced lust phase, where everything is unicorns and rainbows. And then reality hit, and you saw who he really is. He isn't that guy who seduced you with his charm; that's an act that dysfunctional people excel at, to get what they want. The real person is the sick little abused kid who has seen NO normal ways of life, who acts out of dysfunctional childhood solutions (temper tantrums, threats, manipulation, etc.). Our brain 'wires in' solutions as children - these become the strongest synapses, the 'quick response' to situations, thus those are the responses our brains automatically refer to without even thinking. This CAN be overcome, healthy behaviors CAN be learned...but not without heavy counseling with a real psychologist (that goes for you, too - social workers are NOT qualified, IMO).

Another thing is that you married when he was, what, 18? 19, tops? We all know that men mature later than women. A man at 18 is equivalent to a 15 year old girl. A man at 18 from a broken past stopped growing mentally at the first stage of pain/dysfunction/trauma which, for him, was probably at about age 8 or 9. So he has a LOT of work ahead of him if he's ever to overcome all the bad learning he's had. Again, it won't happen without intense therapy.

Another thing is that he DIDN'T get to have the fun that you had, and he has a valid point. I always tell people never to get married before at least 25 because you aren't done growing mentally until then - the brain physically is still changing all that time. Something you are SURE you know and believe at 18, 21, 23, you can wake up the next DAY and wonder why you ever thought that. So, not only are you unlikely to still want what you thought you wanted at 20 when you're 30 (but now you're stuck with a partner you no longer see eye to eye with because you're not the same person), but you also didn't take the time to enjoy being a young adult so that you'll be READY to settle down afterward and enjoy your marriage. And when it's a guy...well, the resentment gets even worse.

One last thing to consider is this: People who come from bad childhoods crave, above all, love and stability - what they should have gotten from their parents. You filled that role for him. You replaced his parents, you became the parent he always wished he had. At the time you met, you filled a valuable hole for him. But now he's older and, just like women who marry too young, he has outgrown the need for a parent. If you DO stay together, you will both have to figure out new roles for each other. I'm guessing your payoff was that you were able to be the Helper for his needy little boy - many people get huge payoffs (ego, being needed, doing something good) by being able to be someone else's support. Something you need to look into with your new psychologist therapist. But your H will need to do quite a bit more soul-searching to figure out where he fits in your life, and you'll need to get to know the new him, and see if he's still the kind of person you'd be drawn to now, when you're not so needy for a person to rescue.

Lots of work ahead, but you seem up to the task. One thing to remember, though, is that NONE of this will ever happen if you don't take a hardline approach with him - either get help or I'm leaving. You can always reconnect later after he's gotten good help.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

Turnera, I have to run out for a bit, but I would really like to address your post in detail when I get back. You have a lot of great insight into the situation.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

> *Something that hasn't been addressed yet is that you two married WAY too soon without really knowing each other - you were in the midst of your PEA-induced lust phase, where everything is unicorns and rainbows. And then reality hit, and you saw who he really is. He isn't that guy who seduced you with his charm; that's an act that dysfunctional people excel at, to get what they want. The real person is the sick little abused kid who has seen NO normal ways of life, who acts out of dysfunctional childhood solutions (temper tantrums, threats, manipulation, etc.). Our brain 'wires in' solutions as children - these become the strongest synapses, the 'quick response' to situations, thus those are the responses our brains automatically refer to without even thinking. This CAN be overcome, healthy behaviors CAN be learned...but not without heavy counseling with a real psychologist (that goes for you, too - social workers are NOT qualified, IMO).*


I do realize that we got married way too soon. I should have stuck to my guns about waiting things out, but at the time getting married was a benefit for us both and things were not just jumped into lightly because of the "high" we were on. We had numerous serious discussions what were filled with talk of how marriage is hard work that requires constant commitment and compromise on both parts. Because of his age, I wanted to make sure that we were on the same page with everything. That's one of the only reasons I let my guard down about waiting. I agree with switching over to a psychologist, especially becauseI am not satisfied with my current couselor. I know that I have a lot of issues on my own that I need to get to the root of so that I can do something about them.



> *Another thing is that you married when he was, what, 18? 19, tops? We all know that men mature later than women. A man at 18 is equivalent to a 15 year old girl. A man at 18 from a broken past stopped growing mentally at the first stage of pain/dysfunction/trauma which, for him, was probably at about age 8 or 9. So he has a LOT of work ahead of him if he's ever to overcome all the bad learning he's had. Again, it won't happen without intense therapy.*


Yes he was 18 when we got married. His trauma started much earlier than 8 or 9 so I guess that sets him back even further? He's been in and out of therapy all of his life which is often why he refuses to seek help now. He was even "hospitalized" for a short time around the age of 14. He dismissed it saying that his adoptive mother made the kids pretend to be crazy so that she could get more money for them. After knowing her for a while, it seemed like a plausible explanation.



> *Another thing is that he DIDN'T get to have the fun that you had, and he has a valid point. I always tell people never to get married before at least 25 because you aren't done growing mentally until then - the brain physically is still changing all that time. Something you are SURE you know and believe at 18, 21, 23, you can wake up the next DAY and wonder why you ever thought that. So, not only are you unlikely to still want what you thought you wanted at 20 when you're 30 (but now you're stuck with a partner you no longer see eye to eye with because you're not the same person), but you also didn't take the time to enjoy being a young adult so that you'll be READY to settle down afterward and enjoy your marriage. And when it's a guy...well, the resentment gets even worse.*


This was another thing that was discussed often while we were dating. He constantly insisted that he had no desire to party, drink, sexually, or do anything that I had done during my "wild" phase. He was a virgin when I met him, and he already had reservations about sex because of the abuse he experienced at a young age. I told him that I accepted that, but I was aware that if he changed his mind as he got older that was perfectly fine. I have never had an issue with him going out enjoying himself. In fact, I have gone through great lengths to make sure that he was able to go out and have fun. It only became a problem when he started taking things too far with other females, lying, hiding things, neglecting home, and spending money we didn't have. 



> *One last thing to consider is this: People who come from bad childhoods crave, above all, love and stability - what they should have gotten from their parents. You filled that role for him. You replaced his parents, you became the parent he always wished he had. At the time you met, you filled a valuable hole for him. But now he's older and, just like women who marry too young, he has outgrown the need for a parent. If you DO stay together, you will both have to figure out new roles for each other. I'm guessing your payoff was that you were able to be the Helper for his needy little boy - many people get huge payoffs (ego, being needed, doing something good) by being able to be someone else's support. Something you need to look into with your new psychologist therapist. But your H will need to do quite a bit more soul-searching to figure out where he fits in your life, and you'll need to get to know the new him, and see if he's still the kind of person you'd be drawn to now, when you're not so needy for a person to rescue.*


You are right that I filled the nurturing "parent" role, but that was mostly at his insistance. I have always been the "mother hen" type, but I didn't automatically shift into that role with him. I have been pretty good at "changing hats" in our relationship when needed, and even now he still wants me to "baby" him so I don't feel like he's ready to let that go. If anything, us having a child has thrown him into jealous "sibling" mode in a way. Either that or he just doesn't know what he wants anymore. It does make me feel good to help people in need, and I always do it without ever expecting anything in return. I just like to spread good karma.




> *Lots of work ahead, but you seem up to the task. One thing to remember, though, is that NONE of this will ever happen if you don't take a hardline approach with him - either get help or I'm leaving. You can always reconnect later after he's gotten good help.*


This is exactly where I am right now with everything. I'd hate to hardline him because I feel like anything he does as a result won't be sincere and will create more internal resentment toward me. Being with him has led to me questioning my own sanity at times, and I hate that I feel like I'm damaged goods. It's part of the reason I have been killing myself trying to fix things. After New Year's I realized that maybe this was too screwed up to work, but now that he's saying he's different I feel like I need to give him another chance...again.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> This was another thing that was discussed often while we were dating. He constantly insisted that he had no desire to party, drink, sexually, or do anything that I had done during my "wild" phase.


 That's the point, though. He was 18! He didn't KNOW what he wanted. The brain doesn't stop growing and developing neurons and such until around age 25. Like I said, you can be so sure of something that you're willing to cut your family out of your life for someone you love at age 18, or 21, or even 25 and - within a week - think completely differently. People at that age are physically, psychologically unable to KNOW what they want for the rest of their lives. Of course there are exceptions, but your life certainly isn't proving that out, is it?

I'm not saying this to say you married the wrong person. I'm trying to get you to see that you can't just go off of what he says or said. Actions, not words, ok? If he truly loves you and wants you in his life, he WILL get therapy if you won't stay with him without it.

Trust me on this. I've been married to a similar man for 32 years and just this month, told him I'm done if he won't get therapy. I've been holding off out of fear he'd say no, or rage on me, or whatever. But I finally had enough, and said IC or divorce; he knew I meant it, and immediately agreed to go, after 20 years of refusing. But he won't do it without you setting that boundary.

Hardline doesn't mean to demand something from him. It means to say "I'm done doing this. It's too harmful to me. I'm moving to divorce to protect myself. You know what I need, and if you want to give our marriage another try, I'll go along with it as long as you go into weekly therapy; if you can't do that, then I'm fine with divorcing."

That is you letting go. It's letting HIM make the choice of whether he wants to do the work to get you back. Either way, you are doing what you need to do.

Do NOT give him another chance without him getting to a psychologist. Please trust me on this. NOTHING will change. I take it back. He'll change lots - for about 2 to 3 weeks. Then he'll stop trying and revert to his old-synapses ways and you'll just be more beaten down and less sure of yourself.


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

turnera said:


> That's the point, though. He was 18! He didn't KNOW what he wanted. The brain doesn't stop growing and developing neurons and such until around age 25. Like I said, you can be so sure of something that you're willing to cut your family out of your life for someone you love at age 18, or 21, or even 25 and - within a week - think completely differently. People at that age are physically, psychologically unable to KNOW what they want for the rest of their lives. Of course there are exceptions, but your life certainly isn't proving that out, is it?
> 
> I'm not saying this to say you married the wrong person. I'm trying to get you to see that you can't just go off of what he says or said. Actions, not words, ok? If he truly loves you and wants you in his life, he WILL get therapy if you won't stay with him without it.
> 
> ...


I knew that he would change, and I was ok with that. That's why like I said, I never cared about him going out having fun with or without me as long as he wasn't screwing around, blowing money, or being harmful to himself or others. I've always given him options and made accommodations for the changes I knew would happen. I only hit 25 three years into our marriage so I knew I had some changing to do as well. 

Thank you for clarification on hardlining. I am definitely willing to try that since I've tried everything else I can think of. I hope that it works, even if it can't save our marriage. No matter what, I want him to be better for himself and our daughter.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So you are going to tell him that you will be seeing a lawyer if he doesn't get into therapy within ___ weeks?


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

turnera said:


> So you are going to tell him that you will be seeing a lawyer if he doesn't get into therapy within ___ weeks?


Well since he's deployed I was wondering how long I should wait before doing that considering the need for reintegration. I already told him that we need to have a long talk when he gets home. Would it be good if he went to therapy ASAP since he'll be coming from overseas anyway?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Of course it would. What good would waiting do?


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## alwaysoverwhelmed (Apr 24, 2012)

turnera said:


> Of course it would. What good would waiting do?


That's what I was thinking. That way he can get out any feelings about his deployment as well as tackle the other stuff. Thank you again for the great advice.


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