# A journal of our interactions...



## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

I have a hard time doing two things: understanding my feelings, and then associating my feelings back to a particular incident. After a couple days or weeks go by, I still feel a particular way, but can't account for the particulars - i know i feel this way because this happened, but i can't go back and be really introspective. 

So, with my wife and I deciding to work things out between us, I've decided to journal my feelings so i can go back and look and learn from them. I think initially, I'll post some here, at least to get a bit of insight from others on what i did wrong or well, or didn't consider, etc.... 

I have no expectations currently for this thread, so let's see where this takes us. Participate or not, either way is fine. I would appreciate any insight however. Just the act of writing these things down will help me digest my behavior and learn how to better interact with my wife.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

8/15/12
We texted as I was coming home, asking what’s for dinner. She said that I could make spaghetti, or that she could, if I would do her homework paper for her. She also hinted that there might be something a little “extra” if I did that as well. Through some back and forth I hinted that I also was interested but that I wasn’t going to do the paper, but that she should do that and I’d cook. When I got home, I knew that she was going to be busy, but I told her that I expected her to spend a little bit of quality time with me during the night. After dinner, she went and started on the paper, and I picked up a book to start reading. She asked me if I wanted to do her homework, so she could spend more time with her, and I declined. I did so, because earlier in the week she said that she hasn’t really tried in life, and one thing that she thought would be good being on her own would be her needing to take more charge on things, being less dependent on me. So for that reason, I declined to help, told her that she could do it, and proceeded to start reading. She went into the office. 
After a number of hours of our solitary time, I closed my book and was going to prepare for bed. However, I just wanted to spend a bit of time with Rumy, so I came and asked her if she was ready to spend some time. She declined, saying that she wouldn’t have time today. I told her that earlier I told her that I expected to at least spend a little bit of time, and that this wasn’t acceptable. I told her that her going to school was a choice, and us being in a relationship was a choice, and that at this time, she was making the decision to put schooling ahead of our relationship. She said that right now it just wasn’t convenient for her to spend some time, and that school was more important. I paused for a second, and told her how I felt. She was choosing school over me, and not that I was telling her that she needed to give it up completely, but rather take a break. She said she understood that, but still chose school. 
I walked away without saying anything else, visibly upset but not mad at the situation. I proceeded to go about my things, at which time she came out with a wet Kleenex, telling me that she was mad at me because she had been crying about her homework and how I wouldn’t help her. She was also mad at me because I was making her choose between school and me. I calmly listened, and told her I was sorry that she felt the way she did. I explained why I chose not to help her, and asked her if it bothered her that much, why she didn’t come and tell me and talk to me about it. She intimated that she had, and I that I disregarded her, but that she also understood that she should have been more forward with the statement. I apologized that I wasn’t aware of those feelings she had, and she started to walk away because I had understood things from her point of view. I stopped her and said, I understand your two points, and now you think all is well. Do you understand how I feel at this point? She stopped and listened. I took the opportunity to assert myself this boundary: that it’s important to me that no matter how busy she is, that we always spend a bit of time together. This is one of my expectations in a relationship, that we choose to spend at least a little bit of “time” together each day. Choices to be busy, have things going on, etc. are all well and good, but that doesn’t mean that their requirements trump our relationship requirements – spending time, and I need to be in a relationship where someone can commit to that. After all, why should I and my relationship be penalized for the choices that another person makes to be incredibly busy? While I support that person, this doesn’t mean that I’m okay with being de-prioritized. 
We continued to talk a bit, she laughed, cried, then laughed some more, all in a cynically charged manner, as this was not even a day after we decided to work things out, and that we misunderstood each other this bad. It shouldn’t be this hard she said. I agree too. At that same very moment, I know both of us were wondering if this was going to be worth it or not. Who knows? I ended up helping her with her homework for a little bit as she was completely lost, but then soon after went to bed. She came to bed about an hour and half later – of course no time or interest in sex, which I understand. She did tell me thank you this morning, which was nice that she appreciated my help on her assignment. 

-	_So, how do I feel about this situation? On one hand, I feel like I stood my ground, asserted a boundary, and feel a bit better, at least in this case, in sharing our feelings, and understanding how bad we communicate. We made a bit of headway here. On the other hand, I find this whole scenario exhausting. I shouldn’t have to explain to someone how their choices affect others, and it’s not like I was being needy or anything. All I wanted to do was share a bowl of ice cream with her. That’s it. Spend 20 minutes with her – it would be a break for her, and I would get some good personal interaction in… a win/win for both of us. But it just turned into this huge ordeal because she expected me to know how she felt without her telling me. When I told her how I felt, perhaps she felt invalidated because I only addressed my concerns, not knowing she had any. However, that’s her call, her responsibility. I was certainly hurt that she was expressing to me that school was more important. She basically communicated that she loves spending time with me, but only when it’s convenient to her. I absolutely wonder where her priorities are, and I certainly don’t feel comfortable being in a long term relationship with someone that hasn’t made the choice to always make sure that love is communicated each day. Her choices that she makes to stay super busy are just that, her choices. It is important to me that if she does overload her schedule intentionally, that she still chooses to include me in that daily list of things that she declares as important. If she chooses to disregard this boundary, and I create more distance as a result, I’m afraid, and almost 100% sure that she would find that completely acceptable. Is that someone that I want to be with? If that is really the case, why does she really want to be with me in the first place?_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

It sounds like both of you have some ways of communicating your expectations of each other that are compounding the problems. And maybe some blurry boundaries and just poor timing.

1. Why in the world does she expect you to write her paper for her??? Her work, her responsibility. 
2. Understandable to want to spend time together, but it comes across as either a lecture or needy, to come and inform her that ways. 
3. Having to do schoolwork and meet a deadline is not "choosing school over" your spouse/partner. Sometimes you HAVE to put in the hours and time to meet the deadline. If you pose it as an "either school or me" dynamic, she will resent you and feel like you don't respect her work.

You both sound like you're in a power struggle negotiating the terms of a contract in tit-for-tat fashion. BUT it also sounds like you both did hear each other out and came to a place of respecting the other person's side.

You sound like two intense people--like my husband and me. Sometimes we let it get the best of us and we lose the forest for the trees.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> I have a hard time doing two things: understanding my feelings, and then associating my feelings back to a particular incident. After a couple days or weeks go by, I still feel a particular way, but can't account for the particulars - i know i feel this way because this happened, but i can't go back and be really introspective.


That sounds a bit like ADD. My gf had this problem, and it was emotionally crippling her. She's doing a lot better on medication. 
She would describe herself as a "big picture" thinker because she could never remember fine details, and it caused a lot of anxiety because it makes everything feel very random. Maybe you have some other symptoms of ADD:

1). You remember your interpretation of what someone said instead of remembering the exact words they said. This is because it takes a lot of working memory to remember exact words or exact numbers. General feelings like happiness or remembering numbers as simply "big" take a lot less memory.

2). When talking about past events, your version of the story is very different from everyone else's version of what happened. ADD is a thinking disorder - it's hard to observe a situation and fully grasp everything that's going on. A woman with ADD might start dancing with some random cute guy, not remembering or noticing that the guy was talking to his girlfriend just a minute ago. Suddenly there's a fight between these two women. The girlfriend and everybody else watching would say the ADD woman started this by hitting on someone who was clearly already taken. The ADD woman would say she's the victim and she was randomly attacked after she started dancing with someone.

3). Similar to number 2, a person with ADD will frequently misunderstand other people. This is because "big picture" thinking only works when looking at a a large number of actions. A man says a woman is beautiful, he's really nice, and he's always well dressed. The sum of these actions, the big picture, would indicate he is interested in dating. This logic completely falls apart when looking at smaller scale interactions. Your coworker says she really likes how colorful your shirt is? She must want sex. That may or may not be true, but jumping to a big scale conclusion based on small scale interactions leads to a lot of misunderstandings. People with ADD often act like jerks without realizing it. Even when they try to listen, they don't understand what is being said, so it can seem like they're knowingly doing things that anger someone else.

4). You have trouble controlling impulses and will often say something without thinking. Everybody does this from time to time, but ADD people do it a lot more. It's caused by an inability to think about the consequences of words before saying them. Most people wouldn't say "I can't wait to go home" when they are at a party because that might sound rude. A person with ADD will go ahead and say it, not knowing that it sounds rude. 




> So, with my wife and I deciding to work things out between us, I've decided to journal my feelings so i can go back and look and learn from them. I think initially, I'll post some here, at least to get a bit of insight from others on what i did wrong or well, or didn't consider, etc....


Another thing to consider is writing down private thoughts then destroying the paper immediately. Some people think better on paper, so writing things down can improve one's understanding of the situation.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

^ all interesting insight, but i would counter with "it's just the way I think - I'm a virgo" -- i don't forget details when i'm reminded, and i don't forget the scenario all together. i think my confusion with understanding my feelings and thoughts comes from trying to put it in "black and white" context... when i can't, i'd rather remember the feeling and not the details, so I can be sure of at least one thing. i don't think this makes sense at all, so i'll stop. i could be add, but i've never exhibited those tell tale signs...


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

8/16/12
Let’s see, where to start. All day today I have been trying to figure out why it is exactly that I love my wife, why I want to be with her, and why I’m trying so damn hard to make things work. Because a lot of our issues and challenges have gone on for so long, over 2 years now, and haven’t gotten better but worse actually, I find my attraction to her still strong, but not in the “loving” way anymore. Physically, she is getting hotter as she ages, and I find my sexual attraction to her increases, but as her and my respect for each other dwindle, I find it harder to see redeeming qualities that make me want to be with her. Taking a step back, 1000 feet away, and looking at it with a “would I choose her now, if we weren’t married” and the answer to that is no. She’s nothing like I need. 

But… If she was to look, I’m sure she’d see the same thing. See, the thing is, neither of us are meeting each other’s needs here. So, I’ve been trying to decide if she’s going to come around and be better with me, but all focused on trying to change her to fit me. And she, the same for me. 

I’ve labeled myself as a nice guy, a co-dependant, a bum, etc. as I’ve been trying to fix this situation. The thing is, I’m none of these things normally, but I’ve been franticly grabbing at whatever I could to try to get the relationship back to “normal” levels. So this means that I do exhibit behaviors of neediness, control, whining, begging, etc… Am I normally that person? No. Am I now? Yes. Why? Because I don’t know what else to do. I figure if I talk to her more, verbalize my requests more, need her more, and try to control the outcome that things would get back to normal. I’m not co-dependant. I’m desperate. The question is why? Why? I’m not in love with her now, but I so want to get back to when we had fallen for each other, and loved each other so much. Problems, issues, etc… all creep in subtly, and sooner or later you start to forget what each of you had. I’m not totally certain if we’ll ever get back to that place, and honestly, at this point I’ve met my peace with that. It is what it is. However, getting back in the groove will be the better outcome of the two options. 

I’m not sure why I waited so long. I got the NMMNG book a while ago, devoured that, understood the issue, but couldn’t really identify a way back. I got Co-Dependant No More, Divorce Busters, and Mars and Venus – all books that I was trying to use to help me find a way back. Yesterday, I got the MMSL book. For the first time, everything I had been reading started to click. I made it through the first 7 chapters of the book, just prior to getting into the MAP. I can already pinpoint a lot of behaviors that I’ve been doing that have been unattractive. I’ve been working long hours at my job over the last year and a half, and I think it’s zapped a lot of my “personality”. I am pretty stressed all the time, so I come home and I’m lazy. I don’t want to talk to people, so I don’t associate with others. I don’t do anything active because I’m tired. I haven’t focused on our financial well being, because spending the money I earn makes me feel better about all the stress. I have let my physical appearance dwindle because “I don’t have the time” to take care of myself – clothes, hair cuts, weight gain, etc. I was a pretty good beta before, but I looked and saw for the first time, that not only had I lost all Alpha, but I was losing Beta too… All the while complaining to my wife about her lack of love and affection – never correlating the two and seeing the congruent points. I even used to tell her “I’m telling you exactly what I need, why don’t you ever do it. If you told me something that you need, I’d jump and do it.” Looking back at that statement, I now know why she reacted the way she did. And, if she had said that to me, I would have reacted the same way as she did. God, in my futile and tireless efforts to get things back to normal, I’ve completely screwed up. 

She’s said many times that she’s scared to have kids with me. She doesn’t feel secure. She’s confused. And all the while, I’m thinking, in my quiet cool confidence, “I’m not sure what you are scared or insecure of, I’m going to be alright.” Well she can’t hear that, and all she has to go off of is how I’m acting right now. So, she’s taken to following her Mom’s parental upbringing advice. I never understood why she was so focused on things like money, career, savings, etc… those are all things that I am providing. But if she doesn’t feel secure and safe with me, then she will start to try to fill those emotional beta needs herself. Which is what she’s doing. Maybe subconsciously I feel like I’m being replaced. I am. She brought her parents here, which I agreed to, but they are basically dependants on us, living in our house in their old age, and while I don’t want this at all. But from her perspective, having her mom here is a safety thing. She has a strong desire to take care of her mom, but unconsciously, I think she feels safer with her mom here. She’s replacing me. 

She’s also started working out. Losing weight. Dressing sexy as ****, which I Love. But, she’s hanging out with more friends now, doing more active things, becoming more Alpha and upping her sex rank. All the while, I think she’s doing it for me. She’s doing all this to protect herself when I let her down. (I’m not going to, but she probably thinks so.) So I champion all these efforts, but all the while, start to wonder why I feel more and more threatened that she’s going to cheat on me. Now it all makes sense. She’s not going to, yet (at least). I make good money, and I’ve accepted a lot of things other people wouldn’t. But now it makes sense, because I have gotten so damn paranoid lately, that she is/will cheat on me. Why would she feel attracted to me if she is upping her rank, but I’m either at the same or slipping down in rank. And I feel threatened, because as she is upping her rank, I’m realizing slowly that she’s becoming a bit out of my league. That’s not a good feeling to have. I’ve let her lead me around, doing whatever she wants me to, just hoping that would turn things around. It’s not going to happen that way. It’s time for me to take charge again.

I feel like I’ve messed up soo bad. I am in despair at the moment for how stupid my actions have been. Why did I think I could just let myself go and let my paycheck speak for itself? So, this realization, all the advice I have been getting on here finally makes sense. It feels good to have everything “click” in my mind so I can formulate a game plan. So, does this change my feelings that I originally posted? No. I’m still not sure why we are together at this point. But I will say, that until I go through and do what I need to do, I won’t know for sure. I’m okay with either outcome (I may not say that in the future as things get better though.) But one thing is for sure, I need to spend some serious energy on getting me back up to my original ranking, or better. I can do that. I can do that. This epiphany, this realization, while it has me a bit nervous because I’ve let things go so far, I feel really confident that I can come out of this on top. Actually, I don’t have a doubt in my mind. I’ve let myself slip, not because I’ve become a different person, but rather because I didn’t see why doing these things would change our relationship. Now I do. 

So, two good stories, and then that’s it for today… Last night, I propositioned her, and she turned me down. I took it cool and calm, turned away and laid getting ready to sleep. She, apparently wanting a bit more attention came over to my side, and I started touching her. I made a few moves and soon after, we were getting ready to hit it. While I was putting my moves on her, she said “I already told you I’m too tired” to which I replied “yeah, but your not stopping me either!” It turned out to be a good night. 

This morning, as I was leaving she signaled that she wanted a kiss. I waited for her to come to me, she pecked me quickly and then proceeded to start stepping back to what she was doing. I stopped her, grabbed her at the back of her neck, and pulled her in for a bit longer, more passionate kiss. Then I walked away. And don’t tell me that she didn’t like this  

I can do this. I can take charge. That’s no problem for me. Now I just have a game plan. We’ll see how things go over the next few months.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Matty,
Your wife is not working - she is going to school. She chose to wait until the night before it was due to focus on it. 
- when she realized it was hard she tried to get you to do it
- and tried again
- and tried again
And got angry because you refused to take on he responsibility and just do it for her. And then implied that this is why your marriage is broken.

BTW: if you had done her homework for her, you would both be confirming:
- she isn't responsible for her own commitments
- you suddenly get to be responsible for them - at the last minute if she chooses
- and by enabling her you both get to keep her in this child like state - where you not only pay for everything but are responsible for her "job" of school 

You did well by declining the sex for homework trade




UOTE=mattyjman;994285]8/16/12
Let’s see, where to start. All day today I have been trying to figure out why it is exactly that I love my wife, why I want to be with her, and why I’m trying so damn hard to make things work. Because a lot of our issues and challenges have gone on for so long, over 2 years now, and haven’t gotten better but worse actually, I find my attraction to her still strong, but not in the “loving” way anymore. Physically, she is getting hotter as she ages, and I find my sexual attraction to her increases, but as her and my respect for each other dwindle, I find it harder to see redeeming qualities that make me want to be with her. Taking a step back, 1000 feet away, and looking at it with a “would I choose her now, if we weren’t married” and the answer to that is no. She’s nothing like I need. 

But… If she was to look, I’m sure she’d see the same thing. See, the thing is, neither of us are meeting each other’s needs here. So, I’ve been trying to decide if she’s going to come around and be better with me, but all focused on trying to change her to fit me. And she, the same for me. 

I’ve labeled myself as a nice guy, a co-dependant, a bum, etc. as I’ve been trying to fix this situation. The thing is, I’m none of these things normally, but I’ve been franticly grabbing at whatever I could to try to get the relationship back to “normal” levels. So this means that I do exhibit behaviors of neediness, control, whining, begging, etc… Am I normally that person? No. Am I now? Yes. Why? Because I don’t know what else to do. I figure if I talk to her more, verbalize my requests more, need her more, and try to control the outcome that things would get back to normal. I’m not co-dependant. I’m desperate. The question is why? Why? I’m not in love with her now, but I so want to get back to when we had fallen for each other, and loved each other so much. Problems, issues, etc… all creep in subtly, and sooner or later you start to forget what each of you had. I’m not totally certain if we’ll ever get back to that place, and honestly, at this point I’ve met my peace with that. It is what it is. However, getting back in the groove will be the better outcome of the two options. 

I’m not sure why I waited so long. I got the NMMNG book a while ago, devoured that, understood the issue, but couldn’t really identify a way back. I got Co-Dependant No More, Divorce Busters, and Mars and Venus – all books that I was trying to use to help me find a way back. Yesterday, I got the MMSL book. For the first time, everything I had been reading started to click. I made it through the first 7 chapters of the book, just prior to getting into the MAP. I can already pinpoint a lot of behaviors that I’ve been doing that have been unattractive. I’ve been working long hours at my job over the last year and a half, and I think it’s zapped a lot of my “personality”. I am pretty stressed all the time, so I come home and I’m lazy. I don’t want to talk to people, so I don’t associate with others. I don’t do anything active because I’m tired. I haven’t focused on our financial well being, because spending the money I earn makes me feel better about all the stress. I have let my physical appearance dwindle because “I don’t have the time” to take care of myself – clothes, hair cuts, weight gain, etc. I was a pretty good beta before, but I looked and saw for the first time, that not only had I lost all Alpha, but I was losing Beta too… All the while complaining to my wife about her lack of love and affection – never correlating the two and seeing the congruent points. I even used to tell her “I’m telling you exactly what I need, why don’t you ever do it. If you told me something that you need, I’d jump and do it.” Looking back at that statement, I now know why she reacted the way she did. And, if she had said that to me, I would have reacted the same way as she did. God, in my futile and tireless efforts to get things back to normal, I’ve completely screwed up. 

She’s said many times that she’s scared to have kids with me. She doesn’t feel secure. She’s confused. And all the while, I’m thinking, in my quiet cool confidence, “I’m not sure what you are scared or insecure of, I’m going to be alright.” Well she can’t hear that, and all she has to go off of is how I’m acting right now. So, she’s taken to following her Mom’s parental upbringing advice. I never understood why she was so focused on things like money, career, savings, etc… those are all things that I am providing. But if she doesn’t feel secure and safe with me, then she will start to try to fill those emotional beta needs herself. Which is what she’s doing. Maybe subconsciously I feel like I’m being replaced. I am. She brought her parents here, which I agreed to, but they are basically dependants on us, living in our house in their old age, and while I don’t want this at all. But from her perspective, having her mom here is a safety thing. She has a strong desire to take care of her mom, but unconsciously, I think she feels safer with her mom here. She’s replacing me. 

She’s also started working out. Losing weight. Dressing sexy as ****, which I Love. But, she’s hanging out with more friends now, doing more active things, becoming more Alpha and upping her sex rank. All the while, I think she’s doing it for me. She’s doing all this to protect herself when I let her down. (I’m not going to, but she probably thinks so.) So I champion all these efforts, but all the while, start to wonder why I feel more and more threatened that she’s going to cheat on me. Now it all makes sense. She’s not going to, yet (at least). I make good money, and I’ve accepted a lot of things other people wouldn’t. But now it makes sense, because I have gotten so damn paranoid lately, that she is/will cheat on me. Why would she feel attracted to me if she is upping her rank, but I’m either at the same or slipping down in rank. And I feel threatened, because as she is upping her rank, I’m realizing slowly that she’s becoming a bit out of my league. That’s not a good feeling to have. I’ve let her lead me around, doing whatever she wants me to, just hoping that would turn things around. It’s not going to happen that way. It’s time for me to take charge again.

I feel like I’ve messed up soo bad. I am in despair at the moment for how stupid my actions have been. Why did I think I could just let myself go and let my paycheck speak for itself? So, this realization, all the advice I have been getting on here finally makes sense. It feels good to have everything “click” in my mind so I can formulate a game plan. So, does this change my feelings that I originally posted? No. I’m still not sure why we are together at this point. But I will say, that until I go through and do what I need to do, I won’t know for sure. I’m okay with either outcome (I may not say that in the future as things get better though.) But one thing is for sure, I need to spend some serious energy on getting me back up to my original ranking, or better. I can do that. I can do that. This epiphany, this realization, while it has me a bit nervous because I’ve let things go so far, I feel really confident that I can come out of this on top. Actually, I don’t have a doubt in my mind. I’ve let myself slip, not because I’ve become a different person, but rather because I didn’t see why doing these things would change our relationship. Now I do. 

So, two good stories, and then that’s it for today… Last night, I propositioned her, and she turned me down. I took it cool and calm, turned away and laid getting ready to sleep. She, apparently wanting a bit more attention came over to my side, and I started touching her. I made a few moves and soon after, we were getting ready to hit it. While I was putting my moves on her, she said “I already told you I’m too tired” to which I replied “yeah, but your not stopping me either!” It turned out to be a good night. 

This morning, as I was leaving she signaled that she wanted a kiss. I waited for her to come to me, she pecked me quickly and then proceeded to start stepping back to what she was doing. I stopped her, grabbed her at the back of her neck, and pulled her in for a bit longer, more passionate kiss. Then I walked away. And don’t tell me that she didn’t like this  

I can do this. I can take charge. That’s no problem for me. Now I just have a game plan. We’ll see how things go over the next few months.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Matty,
> Your wife is not working - she is going to school. She chose to wait until the night before it was due to focus on it.
> - when she realized it was hard she tried to get you to do it
> - and tried again
> ...


For what it's worth, she works a full time job. She is doing night school.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Point taken. Do you believe that changes the validity of what I posted?
And do you realize that on occasion it is ok for her to run out of time and not have quality time with you?

If my W had done that, I would have let her sort out her homework, but not insisted she spend time with me that night. 

Big difference between having needs and being needy.




mattyjman said:


> For what it's worth, she works a full time job. She is doing night school.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Point taken. Do you believe that changes the validity of what I posted?
> And do you realize that on occasion it is ok for her to run out of time and not have quality time with you?
> 
> If my W had done that, I would have let her sort out her homework, but not insisted she spend time with me that night.
> ...


Yep, your point is still valid.

The issue I have is that she intentionally packs her day with endless things and responsibilities that sometimes don't evenjoy mean anything. School I get that. Some f the other stuff, not so much. But she does it to "stay busy and feel productive" and in many cases she would be just fine not spending time with me at all, except for a quick chat before bed. I understand that she''ll occasionally have to sacrifice our time for things that are critical. My thing is that I want to be able to be with someone that can effectively prioritize her tasks in a way that time is dedicated to the most important things. She doesn't. Not just talking about spending time with me either... but the concern is that when/if we have kids, I have no doubt she''ll be a great mom, but as it is now she''ll be a inattentive wife-which we all know that this can cause issues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> Yep, your point is still valid.
> 
> The issue I have is that she intentionally packs her day with endless things and responsibilities that sometimes don't evenjoy mean anything. School I get that. Some f the other stuff, not so much. But she does it to "stay busy and feel productive" and in many cases she would be just fine not spending time with me at all, except for a quick chat before bed. I understand that she''ll occasionally have to sacrifice our time for things that are critical. My thing is that I want to be able to be with someone that can effectively prioritize her tasks in a way that time is dedicated to the most important things. She doesn't. Not just talking about spending time with me either... but the concern is that when/if we have kids, I have no doubt she''ll be a great mom, but as it is now she''ll be a inattentive wife-which we all know that this can cause issues.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you verbalize these concerns to her?
If so, you could be putting a lot of pressure on her.
If so, she could be feeling pretty judged at hearing you say the ways she chooses to spend her time "don't mean that much."


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Do you verbalize these concerns to her?
> If so, you could be putting a lot of pressure on her.
> If so, she could be feeling pretty judged at hearing you say the ways she chooses to spend her time "don't mean that much."


not specifically. i know that would be horrible, but it's back in my mind.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Matty,
Quality time. This is a big deal. A huge deal. 

When you are with someone, you have a non-verbal vibe:
- Happy
- Engaged with the SITUATION
- Relaxed in a good way

Or, checked out, down and edgy. 

Step one is to get that where it needs to be - or KEEP it there if already good

Step 2 is subtle, and oh so critical. 
- Manage the space, physical space between you. KEEP some space unless she cues you that she WANTS you inside her personal space
- Manage the VERBAL space between you:
a. compliments, especially about appearance/hotness - are best kept to a minimum for now
b YOU bringing up talking to her about the relationship - BAD IDEA - going forward she initiates that are they don't happen. If you dislike something she does, you briefly - 10 words or less - tell her. Don't justify and explain. Best to ask a question "Why would you think I would be ok with THAT?" 
c. talking to her to prevent silence - BAD IDEA
d. talking MORE than she does - BAD IDEA
e. talking MUCH MORE than she does - DISASTER
- Manage the emotional space between you. This is largely a body language thing. 

Radiate "happy with the world" - do not radiate "happy with you". Nor unhappy with you. This is the "I am a happy - fun person - and we happen to be together

This does not mean being cold. Being cold means that if she attempts to close the space to be closer to you - you reject her. Being in control of you - means not crowding her. 



mattyjman said:


> Yep, your point is still valid.
> 
> The issue I have is that she intentionally packs her day with endless things and responsibilities that sometimes don't evenjoy mean anything. School I get that. Some f the other stuff, not so much. But she does it to "stay busy and feel productive" and in many cases she would be just fine not spending time with me at all, except for a quick chat before bed. I understand that she''ll occasionally have to sacrifice our time for things that are critical. My thing is that I want to be able to be with someone that can effectively prioritize her tasks in a way that time is dedicated to the most important things. She doesn't. Not just talking about spending time with me either... but the concern is that when/if we have kids, I have no doubt she''ll be a great mom, but as it is now she''ll be a inattentive wife-which we all know that this can cause issues.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

But what if I'm nother happy with the space space she creates
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> But what if I'm nother happy with the space space she creates
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, that's one of your problems--that you don't like the space SHE creates. MEM's advice is meant to help you change the dynamic. If that happens, this won't be one of your problems anymore.

If someone puts space between herself and you, you're not likely to close that space by pushing yourself upon her. It's counterintuitive, but true.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Matty,
Love - lives or dies - in that space between you. 

By crowding her you are compulsively destroying your marriage. 

It is so bad - that she doesn't even want to be in your company because when she is, there is this constant silent vibe/subtext of "I love you, do you love me, I love you, do you love me, I NEED you, do you love me"

That is not going to work with anyone. 



mattyjman said:


> But what if I'm nother happy with the space space she creates
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

Ok point taken. It's funny you mention that underlying subtext because she says stuff like that a lot... 

So if I understand you correctly, what you are saying is give her space until she wants it. Doing this will make her feel more comfortable with spending quality time when SHE wants to. I can do that. 

My question is if I do that and the amount of quality time we do spend is less than acceptable in my book, then what? It-shirts not like u want to spend endless hours with her... I just want to have what I would consider a normal amount of interaction with each other.. nothing crazy or anything like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> My question is if I do that and the amount of quality time we do spend is less than acceptable in my book, then what?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Try it first. See what happens.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Time for IC, to find out why you would ever want to spend time with someone who doesn't want to be with you


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Time for IC, to find out why you would ever want to spend time with someone who doesn't want to be with you


ok, well that was what i was getting at. my request really isn't that needy when you consider just how much time she does spend on her own without me. if i open this space and let her feel the void, i'm not sure anything would change. i just wanted to make sure that what i was thinking that would end up in, was what it really is. Thanks for the insight...


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Try it first. See what happens.


will do, i don't have anything to lose.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Matty,
There are two ways to approach a "lack of" fill in the blank - from your spouse. 
1. Some level of confrontation, complaining and criticizing OR
2. Some level of self awareness, improvement and assessment 

It is possible to force some level of increased activity by (1) if you have leverage - perhaps financial leverage.

Now (2) is a whole different story. Your wife is over filling her schedule to avoid spending time with you. From where she sits - that is the best thing to do. She has told you - when we spend time together you are crowding me - and I don't like it. Instead of keeping it "light" when you are with her, you are saturating her with the "needy" vibe. She asks you not to - you ignore her - and so she avoids you. 

It is unfair that she asked you to do her homework - and then again it is unfair you are constantly pressuring her. 

FWIW - a counterexample. I was supposed to fly home Friday night - and didn't. Doesn't matter why - but it was not a head game. Instead I flew home Saturday morning. We had a fun day Saturday. It is also true that Saturday night was going to be our only chance this week to be ummm - intimate - since I had to fly out tonight. And equally true that I am sad about her lack of desire - our impaired sex life - and enough other things to fill a residential water tower. She let me know 2-3 times that she was going to take a shower and then get in bed. This is code for - "rock your world". I had no real sense that she felt desire. And a very real awareness that she wishes to ensure I am happy. 

I showered first - got in bed and fell asleep while she showered. This was a "lite" choice. Meaning that I was tired, and glad to use my fatigue to simply "skip the event". She woke me up, and was remarkably turned on. I didn't fall asleep to insult her. And when she gently woke me up and told me to "lose my boxers/t-shirt" I woke right up. 

Think about that though. I wasn't mad. I simply made it easy for her to "let me sleep" if she wanted to. I really would have been fine with that. 

You have to give your partner space to breathe......






mattyjman said:


> ok, well that was what i was getting at. my request really isn't that needy when you consider just how much time she does spend on her own without me. if i open this space and let her feel the void, i'm not sure anything would change. i just wanted to make sure that what i was thinking that would end up in, was what it really is. Thanks for the insight...


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> ok, well that was what i was getting at. my request really isn't that needy when you consider just how much time she does spend on her own without me. if i open this space and let her feel the void, i'm not sure anything would change. i just wanted to make sure that what i was thinking that would end up in, was what it really is. Thanks for the insight...


I don't know, if I had a full time job and was going to night school, and I had a paper due--- and my husband told me he "expected" some time that night.... I would probably lose it on him. I know how stressful it can be. I had 3 children and worked part-time while I went full-time to grad school. I got everything done, but it was rough. I definitely would not have appreciated my H questioning my time management skills. However the part about her begging you to do her homework? Tell her that's just unethical.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

more arguments over the weekend... we've committed to working things out with each other, but any time it comes to a disagreement, things just don't work right. i'm nervous that we will never quite figure our stuff out... and just float through life never really being happy. 

we are doing a trial separation... spend some time apart to really find ourselves. neither of us knew who we were before we got married, we were so young... now we have changed as people, and our relationship has changed in massive ways. so we are going to spend some time apart to really analyze what it is each of us wants in life, so we can figure out what we are doing in this dysfunctional marriage. 

i think it's a necessity at this point, but i don't want to do it. it's not like we hate each other or anything, but we are just soo different we really need to figure out how we are going to do this, and if staying together is really going to work. 

i'm still going to move forward on manning up, doing the map, etc, but for me only... i need to start making myself right. 

wish me luck with all of this.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> more arguments over the weekend... we've committed to working things out with each other, but any time it comes to a disagreement, things just don't work right. i'm nervous that we will never quite figure our stuff out... and just float through life never really being happy.
> 
> we are doing a trial separation... spend some time apart to really find ourselves. neither of us knew who we were before we got married, we were so young... now we have changed as people, and our relationship has changed in massive ways. so we are going to spend some time apart to really analyze what it is each of us wants in life, so we can figure out what we are doing in this dysfunctional marriage.
> 
> ...


Absolutely wishing you luck and support. I don't know if you saw in my thread, when you asked about my separation and reconciling with my H, but I answered your question there.

Stay on the forum, but be careful not to get too stuck in your head, and remember to DO a lot of the things that are presented here as advice.

Like you, I've always been very analytical and run through things in my mind ad infinitum, and I used to journal everything. One of the best things I've learned (and am still learning) to do for myself AND my marriage, is learn not to engage every single thought and expand it to the point where it drives me crazy. Sometimes thinking "less" is thinking "better."

Yoga, meditating, and making sure you stay active and do different things for yourself, will be helpful during your separation. I also recommend individual counseling (again, been there done that).


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

you know this would be much easier if she cheated on me or something... then i wouldn't love her and she would be cut off -- cheating is a no no in my book. 

however, my feelings flip flop all the time. when i'm with her and not fighting about something, then we are good. if we are fighting, or i think about how one sided this relationship is, then i get upset and it's easier to process why it's necessary to split up. 

i still love her, and that makes it hard. one thing i wondered though, in the "codependent no more" book, the author says that co-dependents sometimes attach themselves to people that are incapable of showing love. ... is this where i am at? 

we are still moving forward with the split, and that's something i determined not to flip flop anymore on, but i just wish i could find something to help me detach a little bit. the honest truth though is that i love her, and love being with her. our goals, her upbringing, her lack of affection and initiation of anything, these are all why i think i'd be better off with someone else. but i still love her. 

weird. this is all just too weird.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Matty,
While you are apart I am going to suggest you engage in an exercise. That exercise is very simple, though you may find it a bit painful. 

Every few days, on a scale of 1-10, write down the number that represents her responsibility for the break down, and a matching number representing your responsibility for the breakdown. 

The entire premise for a loving relationship is being able to differentiate between giving love, receiving love and asking for love. I think you have moments where you understand that, and long periods of time where you don't. 





mattyjman said:


> more arguments over the weekend... we've committed to working things out with each other, but any time it comes to a disagreement, things just don't work right. i'm nervous that we will never quite figure our stuff out... and just float through life never really being happy.
> 
> we are doing a trial separation... spend some time apart to really find ourselves. neither of us knew who we were before we got married, we were so young... now we have changed as people, and our relationship has changed in massive ways. so we are going to spend some time apart to really analyze what it is each of us wants in life, so we can figure out what we are doing in this dysfunctional marriage.
> 
> ...


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> The entire premise for a loving relationship is being able to differentiate between giving love, receiving love and asking for love. I think you have moments where you understand that, and long periods of time where you don't.


Care to elaborate on why you think this? 

I can absolutely throw my hand up and say I'm a 10 at fault, she's a 0 at fault, and this whole thing is my fault. I wish that were true honestly. But the fact of the matter is that it's not. If it were, then I could fix this and we would both be happy again. 

If I'm really honest with myself, I'm dissatisfied with the relationship for a number of reasons... lack of respect, lack of love, lack of understanding, lack of shared goals/dreams, lack of emotional connection, lack of being able to share feelings without defense mechanisms being thrown up, lack of emotional maturity. These are issues that have always existed, i think to some extent, but I've started to realize how important they really are to me, and that this won't change. 

I know that what I've posted up only shares a limited, and probably biased, view of what our relationship looks like. Honestly, I could paint it on here however I want in order to make me feel better and get the advice I need. The fact of the matter is, I deserve someone that treats me right. I can assume fault in this relationship. Absolutely. I can't fix everything though, and I either need to be ok with the way it is, hope that what i fix in me fixes everything in her, or get involved with someone that will treat me better from the start. 

I'm not sure what's going to happen during this time apart, but I'm going to work on me, my stuff. What she does is entirely up to her. However, when it comes time to reevaluate, and things are the same, I've come to grips with what that means. 

For what it's worth, I think she's having an EA (not to mention her parents are living with us), but I can't prove it. That would explain a lot of the behavior.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

oh, and just for good measure i'll share the latest argument with you guys...

the other day, yet another request for me to help her with her homework. I declined, and told her I would "help" by talking things out with her, but that I wasn't going to do the paper or give her all the things she needs so she could just write it. 

she replied with a "well, you're just useless then..."

by now, things like this don't surprise me much. i told her how that made me felt and that I didn't appreciate being talked to like that, as well as the feeling that she EXPECTS me to assist her with work that she's chosen to take on. 

she didn't respond so i walk away... 

she came a bit later into the bedroom, and she started with a "i'm sorry I said those things, but you just need to help me... why is that too much to ask.... blah blah blah." 

I love her apologies. 

As we continued talking, she said that I needed to apologize since I made her mad first... and that it wasn't fair that I was mad at her, since I had made her mad when i declined to assist with her homework. 

this continued for a little while, ultimately with her saying, "well, i just won't ask you for help anymore since you can't help me when i'm in need of something"... (or something to that effect)

one of the most exhausting things about her, is that whenever I try to tell her how i feel about something, she finds a way to spin it and turn it around back on me. every time. it's a defense mechanism, so i get it, but dang...


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

well, she moved out on saturday... the house is empty. 

i wish i didn't have to go through this...


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