# How to prevent a walkaway wife



## SurpriseMyself

After 6 years of trying marriage counseling, communication, reading books, anything I can think of, I finally left my husband. I'm writing now because I'm experiencing something I had not suspected.

Since leaving, I've had many people I've known for a while confess how they are unhappy in their marriage. All of these people, save one, are women. They've told me how they are struggling, that they've tried to communicate their concerns, but their spouse isn't really listening/taking them seriously. They have considered leaving in the past. These women want to communicate these things with me; they see me as someone who had the courage to make a move when they could not. And some of their husbands are afraid of me, even though I'm not trying to sway anyone one way or the other. I only share my experiences and listen to theirs; I don't give advice. 

I've described on TAM before how women want to feel connection and need to feel heard. I've described how they will voice their concerns, but often men just hear it as nagging and complaining. Their concerns are met with anger, defensiveness, deflection, etc. They aren't met with action. The men think the problem will pass, so they do nothing.

And sure enough, it seems like it does. Eventually the wife isn't complaining anymore. The truth is, she's giving up. She knows it's useless, so she stops beating her drum.

From this point, it's only a matter of time. She's checking out, and the longer the problems persist and are not discussed and resolved, the closer to death are her feelings for her husband.

All the while the man is thinking things are good, but the opposite is true. Her feelings for her man are dying and he has no clue (even though he probably should) until the day she says the word "divorce." 

I've had many open up to me, both men and women. The men will often say things like, "men are just emotionally retarded," "men don't know how to talk about serious things," "men don't want to look weak." As I hear these things, all I really hear are excuses. The idea that "men will be men" allows men to deflect their responsibility to a relationship. It's an archaic notion that doesn't work in our modern society, yet it seems many can't let go of it. And to cling to all these simplistic excuses is to risk all you have, your happiness, your wife's happiness, the security of your family, everything.

If you want to prevent a walkaway wife, ask yourself if there's a problem that your wife wanted addressed that you ignored, hoped would go away, didn't talk about, that you pretend like isn't there but you know you did nothing about. If your wife no longer seeks your counsel, no longer wants to be with you, goes on vacations without you, you may find yourself alone and never see it coming. But even that isn't true, since you know you aren't addressing the issues in your marriage. 

In short, I know many women who are sticking it out when they don't love their husband anymore. Is your wife dissatisfied with your marriage and you don't know it? If you don't ask yourself this question, you are risking everything.

Note: edited the original post to remove statistics that I now see hurt the conversation rather than helped.


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## tech-novelist

Are you saying that when a wife walks away it is always her husband's fault?


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## Livvie

technovelist said:


> Are you saying that when a wife walks away it is always her husband's fault?


And...I think this response illustrates the idea put forth in the OP perfectly!


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## tech-novelist

Livvie said:


> Really? That's what you got from her post?


Yes, that's what it sounds like to me. What am I missing?


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## SurpriseMyself

technovelist said:


> Yes, that's what it sounds like to me. What am I missing?


Read it again.


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## tech-novelist

The short version is that the wife is upset about something and the husband won't address it.

So if he was a better husband and addressed the problem, she wouldn't walk away.

Is that right?


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## Adelais

technovelist said:


> Are you saying that when a wife walks away it is always her husband's fault?


The answer to your question has a direct correlation to the title of the article, specifically the words "walkaway wife."


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## Adelais

Surprise Myself, while I'm sorry you got to that point, I'm happy you found your peace.

Did you ever tell your husband that the marital days were numbered if he didn't begin to take your needs seriously?


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## Adelais

technovelist said:


> The short version is that the wife is upset about something and the husband won't address it.
> 
> So if he was a better husband and addressed the problem, she wouldn't walk away.
> 
> Is that right?


Usually, it is not just one "something," it is a whole mountain of somethings by the time she gives up and goes silent.

If the husband had realized she went silent because she had given up, and had he begun to work on his side of things, she probably could have been coaxed back into the marriage long before she finally walked away.


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## SurpriseMyself

technovelist said:


> The short version is that the wife is upset about something and the husband won't address it.
> 
> So if he was a better husband and addressed the problem, she wouldn't walk away.
> 
> Is that right?


"Upset about something" is not it. This is about the core of the marriage. If there's lack of connection, that's not "upset about something." That's the core of the marriage and it's dying. 

I think you are a good example of how men don't understand this. Keep asking questions.


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## the guy

Once the spouse stops listening and both spouse give up then one will walk away.

I'm guessing once the spouses stop meeting each others needs there isn't shyt they can do about it. They both just stop giving a phuck about one another and one of them has to have the balls to pull the trigger so they both can go on and start living again.


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## the guy

OP you are going to get some shyt for the title of your thread.

If the title was "How to prevent a walk away spouse" well then maybe some comment would have been different.

But what the hell do I know.LOL


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## OpenWindows

technovelist said:


> Yes, that's what it sounds like to me. What am I missing?


She's saying that the husband can help prevent the end of the marriage by taking his wife's needs seriously. That is not the same as saying it's all his fault, but they both play a role. She needs to communicate her needs instead of "checking out", and he needs to hear them and address them. If only one spouse is doing their part, the marriage will end.

After all, it's not very effective to tell an unhappy wife to fix her marriage without help from her husband. If these things could be fixed from one side only, this website wouldn't exist.


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## Red Sonja

Epic post @SurpriseMyself. You have concisely described what happened to my marriage.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Did you ever tell your husband that the marital days were numbered if he didn't begin to take your needs seriously?


I did. Had no effect whatsoever.


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## Blondilocks

She is not saying it's always the man's fault. She is saying that if a man is in the position of having his wife leave, perhaps he could search his memory to get a clue and address that with his wife. It may or may not be too late.


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## tech-novelist

Well, of course I understand that if one spouse has a major issue that the other spouse won't address, it is going to cause serious trouble. I know there can be more than one such issue, but let's talk about "an issue" for simplicity, and that the one who is upset is the wife.

So in this case I wonder exactly how the issue is brought up by the wife. Obviously I would assume she would start by bringing it up in normal conversational discussion. But when it isn't addressed, does she ever get to the point of saying "If you don't deal with this I'm out of here?" or does she assume that he figures that out himself?


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## Imovedforthis

[From this point, it's only a matter of time. She's checking out, and the longer the problems persist and are not discussed and resolved, the closer to death are her feelings for her husband.

All the while the man is thinking things are good, but the opposite is true. Her feelings for her man are dying and he has no clue (even though he probably should) until the day she says the word "divorce."]


^^^ Yes 100! totally spot on


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## the guy

technovelist said:


> Yes, that's what it sounds like to me. What am I missing?


Husbands like to go out side and blow shyt up with their guns. wives like to have sex in a nice big soft bed.

What you are missing is you need to take you wife out side and blow shyt up with your guns and have sex out side in a soft sleeping bag.

Sure I'm generalizing here...but

On the other side of the coin if the wife wants to stay in and have sex then make a fire in the fire place and burn up some crap and phuck in front of the fire place in a soft area rug.


At any rate both spouses have to *tell* each other what they need and work together so they can phuck and blow shyt up at the same time.

I know a couple were the chick likes sports.....sports sports sports...and the guy likes wood working, so my friend set up a big screen in the shop so they can hang together.

The point is once both spouse stop listening/trying, then it's over and in OP's case it is clear her old man stopped giving a shyt or else he would be listening.

I bet OP's old man has his complaint too....but at the end of the day one of them had the ball to get the hell out of a phucked up marriage.


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## Adelais

For men: This guy really gets it. Stop being stubborn, and having to be "right" all the time. Your wife doesn't think like you do. When she "complains" she is telling your her hand, and giving you the opportunity to keep her.


The Ultimate Husband


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## OpenWindows

technovelist said:


> Well, of course I understand that if one spouse has a major issue that the other spouse won't address, it is going to cause serious trouble. I know there can be more than one such issue, but let's talk about "an issue" for simplicity, and that the one who is upset is the wife.
> 
> So in this case I wonder exactly how the issue is brought up by the wife. Obviously I would assume she would start by bringing it up in normal conversational discussion. But when it isn't addressed, does she ever get to the point of saying "If you don't deal with this I'm out of here?" or does she assume that he figures that out himself?


Many walk away wives do say that near the end. And they often aren't believed. They've put up with it until now, so their husbands assume they can continue to coast.

It's not always easy to pinpoint an issue that causes a woman to walk. It's a hundred little things, over a long period of time, that cause a woman to feel completely unheard. She doesn't exactly leave over the third forgotten birthday... she leaves because that forgotten birthday is the final straw that convinces her that her husband doesn't care enough to try.

When I told my XH I wanted out, he decided to fix a few of the issues I had that he "approved of". He ignored the rest of my complaints. They weren't important to him, so he treated them like they weren't important at all. This was exactly what the rest of my marriage had been like, so it was pretty clear to me that nothing had really changed. I don't think he really believed I would actually leave him until I'd been gone for six months and still didn't want to come back.


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## Adelais

Red Sonja said:


> I did. Had no effect whatsoever.


Then you became a WAW, and he acted surprised?


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## the guy

Is you old man begging and crying about the lose of the marriage?


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## SurpriseMyself

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Surprise Myself, while I'm sorry you got to that point, I'm happy you found your peace.
> 
> Did you ever tell your husband that the marital days were numbered if he didn't begin to take your needs seriously?


Yes. Many times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Red Sonja

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Then you became a WAW, and he acted surprised?


Yes, he had an epic meltdown.

I had the "I'm leaving, here's the why and when" conversation with him 2 years before I left. His response was "do whatever you have to do".

I was waiting for our daughter to be settled in at university before leaving, I did not want to disrupt her 1st year there.


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## tech-novelist

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> For men: This guy really gets it. Stop being stubborn, and having to be "right" all the time. Your wife doesn't think like you do. When she "complains" she is telling your her hand, and giving you the opportunity to keep her.
> 
> 
> The Ultimate Husband


Ok, if we're going to bring in Biblical verses, as the "ultimate husband" reference does, how about this one?

'Ephesians 5:24 says, “Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.” '

(Note: I'm not a Christian, but the "ultimate husband" reference is Biblically based, so another Bible reference seems relevant.)


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## Therealbrighteyes

I'll talk about my own situation. I had very specific needs that weren't being met. I laid them out in detail over hundreds upon hundreds of conversations. Simple things, little things like look me in the eye when you are talking with me, not your phone; Make me a priority, not your friends/co-workers/parents/whatever flavor du jour he was in to; Don't just nod in agreement and offer nothing else as a response when I ask you a question; When I am hurting, hug me instead of telling me how I should fix it. Pretty basic things, right? Well it wasn't to him. He would promise to change and never did. It hurt me terribly. I would cry (alone) so he wouldn't see it and then have the same conversation over and over and over again about how my needs weren't met. More promises, wash, rinse, repeat. I made a decision to stop talking, stop thinking things would change and stop caring. It worked very well, as his actions no longer hurt me. I was numb. 

Fast forward to January of this year and he had an epiphany of sorts. Apparently he missed me talking with him and finally noticed I didn't. He sat me down and said we feel disconnected. A lengthy conversation ensued, mostly on his part, while I sat there blank faced. I had to fight back my anger. I was seething inside and when I couldn't hold it in any longer, I exploded. Decades of marriage and my needs weren't important enough to change for but the moment he felt his world out of sorts,_ then_ there was a problem? I unloaded and apparently I wasn't as numb as I had thought I was. Anger isn't the opposite of love, apathy is and I was anything but apathetic in that moment. I also burst in to tears, something I hadn't been capable of doing for a long time. 

So where we are now is in intensive counseling. He is moving heaven and Earth to be the person I need him to be. I sincerely appreciate that. I'd also be a liar if I said I was 100% all in. After moving 90% of the boulders for years, he needs to do the heavy lifting for a while now. 

Who knows what the future will hold. I may wake up one day and realize this is too much for me to take. I may wake up one day and realize I _am _100% in. If I chose the former, would that make me a WAW or an abandoned one? The answer to that question is all about perspective.


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## SurpriseMyself

the guy said:


> Is you old man begging and crying about the lose of the marriage?


He says he's not happy, that he doesn't want this. But he never once said he would fight for us, for our marriage. In his parents relationship, he saw his father basically ignore his mom and take her for granted. She waits on him and finds her happiness in playing the good wife and mother. Her support is from her sisters. Their relationship is very old school, so my STBXH just thinks you shouldn't bring up things you aren't happy about. Just suck it up and keep going, no matter how bad it gets.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

Here is a link that describes what is called the "Walk Away Wife Syndrome".

Get Relationship Advice and Solve Marriage Problems with Michele Weiner-Davis - Divorce Busting®


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## manfromlamancha

And just for completeness, often the man wants his wife to just walk away as in his mind he has had enough of her "whining" and self entitlement (in his mind). That is when he is not prepared to fight for the marriage and a wife walking away is the best thing for him. I have seen plenty of these situations.


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## SurpriseMyself

The men fighting these ideas will likely lose their woman, if they haven't already. This is an opportunity to learn, to prevent the very thing many men come to TAM to lament. Take what you can from these stories, and try to not be defensive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SurpriseMyself

manfromlamancha said:


> And just for completeness, often the man wants his wife to just walk away as in his mind he has had enough of her "whining" and self entitlement (in his mind). That is when he is not prepared to fight for the marriage and a wife walking away is the best thing for him. I have seen plenty of these situations.


I haven't seen that. They may think it's helpful, but the men who ignore their wives' needs will likely find themselves in the same position in their next relationship. If you want a woman who has no need to be heard or understood, good luck finding her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

manfromlamancha said:


> And just for completeness, often the man wants his wife to just walk away as in his mind he has had enough of her "whining" and self entitlement (in his mind). That is when he is not prepared to fight for the marriage and a wife walking away is the best thing for him. I have seen plenty of these situations.


A wife whines for years that she would like for her and her husband to go on dates, to spend time together. He hears it as whining so he continues to spend all his free time with his friends.

I suppose it's self entitlement for a woman to want to spend time with her husband.

Interesting.


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## EleGirl

SurpriseMyself said:


> I haven't seen that. They may think it's helpful, but the men who ignore their wives' needs will likely find themselves in the same position in their next relationship. If you want a woman who has no need to be heard or understood, good luck finding her.


One thing you can be sure of, when he complains he expects her to listen and certainly does not consider his complaints whining.

See this is a two way street.


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## the guy

SurpriseMyself said:


> He says he's not happy, that he doesn't want this. But he never once said he would fight for us, for our marriage. In his parents relationship, he saw his father basically ignore his mom and take her for granted. She waits on him and finds her happiness in playing the good wife and mother. Her support is from her sisters. Their relationship is very old school, so my STBXH just thinks you shouldn't bring up things you aren't happy about. Just suck it up and keep going, no matter how bad it gets.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My dad taught me the same thing.

Your old man isn't happy about the change, that's all.

It wasn't until recently if I wanted to get what I wanted out of my old lady I had to listen to her. And vise versa. So far it works for us.
But the 1st 20 years of our M it was a mess....of "biblical" proportion.:wink2:



Are you walking away from something or are you walking towards something?


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## SurpriseMyself

the guy said:


> My dad taught me the same thing.
> 
> Your old man isn't happy about the change, that's all.
> 
> It wasn't until recently if I wanted to get what I wanted out of my old lady I had to listen to her. And vise versa. So far it works for us.
> But the 1st 20 years of our M it was a mess....of "biblical" proportion.:wink2:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you walking away from something or are you walking towards something?


Both. I'm walking away from what I know would never work. Where I go from here is the big question. I have a lot of work to do on myself. I want to make a path in my life that is filled with growth and opportunity.

And to answer your real question, no, there's no man waiting in the wings.


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## the guy

Believe it or not I wasnt going there.LOL LOL LOL

My point is you know you are making the right choice to D if you are running towards something and not running away from something.

But I get why you thought the obvious....after all I'm "the guy" with the cheating wife! ;-)

Seriously I hope you find a path that will let you use your full potential in something that full fills you .....now thats something to run towards....you know what I mean.


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## Adelais

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I'll talk about my own situation. I had very specific needs that weren't being met. I laid them out in detail over hundreds upon hundreds of conversations. Simple things, little things like look me in the eye when you are talking with me, not your phone; Make me a priority, not your friends/co-workers/parents/whatever flavor du jour he was in to; Don't just nod in agreement and offer nothing else as a response when I ask you a question; When I am hurting, hug me instead of telling me how I should fix it. Pretty basic things, right? Well it wasn't to him. He would promise to change and never did. It hurt me terribly. I would cry (alone) so he wouldn't see it and then have the same conversation over and over and over again about how my needs weren't met. More promises, wash, rinse, repeat. I made a decision to stop talking, stop thinking things would change and stop caring. It worked very well, as his actions no longer hurt me. I was numb.
> 
> Fast forward to January of this year and he had an epiphany of sorts. Apparently he missed me talking with him and finally noticed I didn't. He sat me down and said we feel disconnected. A lengthy conversation ensued, mostly on his part, while I sat there blank faced. I had to fight back my anger. I was seething inside and when I couldn't hold it in any longer, I exploded. Decades of marriage and my needs weren't important enough to change for but the moment he felt his world out of sorts,_ then_ there was a problem? I unloaded and apparently I wasn't as numb as I had thought I was. Anger isn't the opposite of love, apathy is and I was anything but apathetic in that moment. I also burst in to tears, something I hadn't been capable of doing for a long time.
> 
> So where we are now is in intensive counseling. He is moving heaven and Earth to be the person I need him to be. I sincerely appreciate that. I'd also be a liar if I said I was 100% all in. After moving 90% of the boulders for years, he needs to do the heavy lifting for a while now.
> 
> Who knows what the future will hold. I may wake up one day and realize this is too much for me to take. I may wake up one day and realize I _am _100% in. If I chose the former, would that make me a WAW or an abandoned one? The answer to that question is all about perspective.


When the husband loves his wife and has been lazy about listening to her heart, often times once he realizes he is going to lose her because of his selfishness, he will start looking inside himself and find what was missing.

I hope he is able to prove to you that he is a changed man.


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## just got it 55

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> For men: This guy really gets it. Stop being stubborn, and having to be "right" all the time. Your wife doesn't think like you do. When she "complains" she is telling your her hand, and giving you the opportunity to keep her.
> 
> 
> The Ultimate Husband


What if the wife is stubborn and thinks she is right all the time

Where is the Ultimate Wife Link ?

See how that works

Listen... I thought the D word was coming up for years
I acted as if it was a self fulfilled prophecy.

It never came It really should have But.... I made the changes to prevent it and fixed my M

My wife would have lived out her days as is.

If she did not respond as she did I would have been the one leaving

55


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## Adelais

just got it 55 said:


> What if the wife is stubborn and thinks she is right all the time
> 
> Where is the Ultimate Wife Link ?
> 
> See how that works
> 
> Listen... I thought the D word was coming up for years
> I acted as if it was a self fulfilled prophecy.
> 
> It never came It really should have But.... I made the changes to prevent it and fixed my M
> 
> My wife would have lived out her days as is.
> 
> If she did not respond as she did I would have been the one leaving
> 
> 55


55 why don't you start your own thread and tell us how you fixed your marriage? Link it to this comment, so we can see both sides.

Maybe there is no "ultimate wife" thread because most men don't just walk away, they have an affair.


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## Adelais

technovelist said:


> Ok, if we're going to bring in Biblical verses, as the "ultimate husband" reference does, how about this one?
> 
> 'Ephesians 5:24 says, “Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.” '
> 
> (Note: I'm not a Christian, but the "ultimate husband" reference is Biblically based, so another Bible reference seems relevant.)


And now for the rest of the passage:

Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, *and gave his life for it*."

If a husband can't even listen to his wife's concerns, much less change his behavior, do you think he is being like Chirst, and is giving his life for her as God advises...commands?

tech, you are arguing using words, not having or understanding the spirit behind the words. We wives here are talking about deeper issues, the need to be heard by our husband's hearts.

The husbands of WAW are not giving or sensitive to their wives' needs, and will not give their lives for their wives, because their egos are too selfish and weak to listen to their wives with their hearts.

A wife gives up in despair, and feels she has no other choice but to take care of her own survival....without the 210 lb life-sucking weight on her.

It is the nature of most women to give and give until there is nothing left to give. Some men take and take until the wife has nothing left to give. Walking away is a form of self preservation.


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## MattMatt

SurpriseMyself said:


> After 6 years of trying marriage counseling, communication, reading books, anything I can think of, I finally left my husband. I'm writing now because I'm experiencing something I had not suspected.
> 
> Since leaving, I've had many people I've known for a while confess how they are unhappy in their marriage. All of these people, save one, are women. They've told me how they are struggling, that they've tried to communicate their concerns, but their spouse isn't really listening/taking them seriously. They have considered leaving in the past. These women want to communicate these things with me; they see me as someone who had the courage to make a move when they could not. And some of their husbands are afraid of me, even though I'm not trying to sway anyone one way or the other. I only share my experiences and listen to theirs; I don't give advice.
> 
> I've described on TAM before how women want to feel connection and need to feel heard. I've described how they will voice their concerns, but often men just hear it as nagging and complaining. Their concerns are met with anger, defensiveness, deflection, etc. They aren't met with action. The men think the problem will pass, so they do nothing.
> 
> And sure enough, it seems like it does. Eventually the wife isn't complaining anymore. The truth is, she's giving up. She knows it's useless, so she stops beating her drum.
> 
> From this point, it's only a matter of time. She's checking out, and the longer the problems persist and are not discussed and resolved, the closer to death are her feelings for her husband.
> 
> All the while the man is thinking things are good, but the opposite is true. Her feelings for her man are dying and he has no clue (even though he probably should) until the day she says the word "divorce."
> 
> I've had many open up to me, both men and women. The men will often say things like, "men are just emotionally retarded," "men don't know how to talk about serious things," "men don't want to look weak." As I hear these things, all I really hear are excuses. The idea that "men will be men" allows men to deflect their responsibility to a relationship. It's an archaic notion that doesn't work in our modern society, yet it seems many can't let go of it. And to cling to all these simplistic excuses is to risk all you have, your happiness, your wife's happiness, the security of your family, everything.
> 
> If you want to prevent a walkaway wife, ask yourself if there's a problem that your wife wanted addressed that you ignored, hoped would go away, didn't talk about, that you pretend like isn't there but you know you did nothing about. If your wife no longer seeks your counsel, no longer wants to be with you, goes on vacations without you, you may find yourself alone and never see it coming. But even that isn't true, since you know you aren't addressing the issues in your marriage.
> 
> Remember, 80% of divorces in America are filed by women. And those are the women who have the courage to leave. I know just as many women who are sticking it out when they don't love their husband anymore. Is your wife dissatisfied with your marriage and you don't know it? If you don't ask yourself this question, you are risking everything.


How about when a spouse asks a question that their partner cannot answer? Which might actually not be a genuine question but a relationship bomb disguised as a question?:scratchhead:

For example: "Why can't you be more like your cousin?"

I mean, how are you supposed to answer *that* type of question? 

What if the cousin only looks good superficially, but in reality is a crook, a secret spouse beater, for example?


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## just got it 55

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> 55 why don't you start your own thread and tell us how you fixed your marriage? Link it to this comment, so we can see both sides.
> 
> Maybe there is no "ultimate wife" thread because most men don't just walk away, they have an affair.


Had threads years ago but they are all deleted now

Simple formula

Re establish emotional connection

Act on the issues on your side of the street without a word saying Honey Look what I am doing!!!

Get back to getting the home in order all those unfinished projects

Talk to her but more important listen to her 

Allow her to get those feelings out and acknowledge them Validate them Make it known that if you don't understand them seek that understanding

Do not defend your self when her feelings are being vocalized.

Lighten up make her laugh Make her feel safe emotionally and phyically

Keep your mouth shut as in "How am I doing Honey"

Sex.....Intimacy....Well that's a whole different ball game

Always maintain the notion that Love sex and intimacy are gifts Not to be expected for taking out the trash.

A lot of MMSLP is nonsense but one thing is true

Men want better sex and Women want better men

In short I became the man my wife would leave me for.

BTW: I got flipped over at 3:30 in the AM the other day:laugh:

55


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## JukeboxHero

Ya know, this his me kinda deep. I appreciate you posting this, @suprisemyself.

I'm not sure if I'm one of those husbands that ignored his wife and caused her to be a WAW, but I know she's been checked out of our marriage for awhile now.

If you want to read some of my threads and give me your thoughts on my situation, I would appreciate it. 

If you want the general gist of it, I can tell you...

I didn't turn out to be the responsible and "mature" husband my wife was hoping for. I had hobbies and games that I had always enjoyed and desired to continue pursuing to a reduced extent after marriage. I thought I could balance my hobbies and married life and to some extent, I think I did okay. At other times, even I will readily acknowledge I had poor time management/bad timing and made bad decisions. 
My wife wanted me to completely abandon my hobbies (at least those related to games) and was disappointed that I wasn't more future-minded and also wished I was more romantic and "emotionally deep".
I tried to limit my outings and time on hobbies. For awhile, especially as she started finding other friends at work to hang out with, I thought we had reached a decent compromise. But eventually, she started venting more and more of her frustrations and as she put it, her "bubble" burst. The bubble fantasy where she thought things would work out somehow.

On the other hand, I think she expected me to change completely--perhaps just become her vision of an ideal husband, make her feel like a princess, etc. She was also a bit more controlling and sometimes seems to monitor and nag almost part of my life, like a mother trying to teach a child how to act (in almost every area of life; from folding clothes, driving, talking to strangers, eating properly, etc. I think it began to wear on my self-confidence and self-worth.

I'm not sure exactly how to assess my situation. We've actually agreed to divorce and go our separate ways, but everytime I read a thread like this, I wonder if I'm one of these husbands that could've done more to save his marriage.


----------



## Adelais

MattMatt said:


> How about when a spouse asks a question that their partner cannot answer? Which might actually not be a genuine question but a relationship bomb disguised as a question?:scratchhead:
> 
> For example: "Why can't you be more like your cousin?"
> 
> I mean, how are you supposed to answer *that* type of question?
> 
> What if the cousin only looks good superficially, but in reality is a crook, a secret spouse beater, for example?


Tell your wife exactly how you feel when she makes such an unfair, absurd comment.

Tell her that you can change your behavior, and some aspects of your physical look (clothes, hair, hygiene, get healthier if you need to) but you can't be your cousin.

Then offer to beat her like he beats his wife, and ask her if that is what she means. >


----------



## MattMatt

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Tell your wife exactly how you feel when she makes such an unfair, absurd comment.
> 
> Tell her that you can change your behavior, and some aspects of your physical look (clothes, hair, hygiene, get healthier if you need to) but you can't be your cousin.
> 
> Then offer to beat her like he beats his wife, and ask her if that is what she means. >


_*I was using that as a general example, not specific to my wife.*_

Though I recall a friend of mine who was always getting from his mother: "I wish you were more like your two cousins!"

Eventually the two cousins were jailed for a savage beating and street robbery they had performed.

Even so, a few months later his mother again came out with: "I wish you were more like your two cousins!"

To which he replied: "Why? Do you want me to mug someone and steal their wallet?"

The cousins were never mentioned again.

Also, some wives have a long list of complaints against their husband. Not all of them valid, it would seem. (Here honey, let me re-invent the history of our marriage, OK?)

One WAW on the Jeremy Kyle show said that one of the reasons she was leaving her husband were the expressions he made when he was having an orgasm with her.

Jeremy Kyle was not sympathetic to her.


----------



## EleGirl

JukeboxHero said:


> Ya know, this his me kinda deep. I appreciate you posting this, @suprisemyself.
> 
> I'm not sure if I'm one of those husbands that ignored his wife and caused her to be a WAW, but I know she's been checked out of our marriage for awhile now.
> 
> If you want to read some of my threads and give me your thoughts on my situation, I would appreciate it.
> 
> If you want the general gist of it, I can tell you...
> 
> I didn't turn out to be the responsible and "mature" husband my wife was hoping for. I had hobbies and games that I had always enjoyed and desired to continue pursuing to a reduced extent after marriage. I thought I could balance my hobbies and married life and to some extent, I think I did okay. At other times, even I will readily acknowledge I had poor time management/bad timing and made bad decisions.
> My wife wanted me to completely abandon my hobbies (at least those related to games) and was disappointed that I wasn't more future-minded and also wished I was more romantic and "emotionally deep".
> I tried to limit my outings and time on hobbies. For awhile, especially as she started finding other friends at work to hang out with, I thought we had reached a decent compromise. But eventually, she started venting more and more of her frustrations and as she put it, her "bubble" burst. The bubble fantasy where she thought things would work out somehow.
> 
> On the other hand, I think she expected me to change completely--perhaps just become her vision of an ideal husband, make her feel like a princess, etc. She was also a bit more controlling and sometimes seems to monitor and nag almost part of my life, like a mother trying to teach a child how to act (in almost every area of life; from folding clothes, driving, talking to strangers, eating properly, etc. I think it began to wear on my self-confidence and self-worth.
> 
> I'm not sure exactly how to assess my situation. We've actually agreed to divorce and go our separate ways, but everytime I read a thread like this, I wonder if I'm one of these husbands that could've done more to save his marriage.


Your case does bring up some important points. 

The way you describe your situation, your wife was unreasonable if you did your hobbies, but also spent quality time with her and did your share of household and child care responsibilities. It is unreasonable to expect a person to change completely after marriage and give up the things that they love.

Some women do go overboard on what they expect. Some women don't give a darn what their husbands want and need... it's all about them. And some men are the same. There are selfish people in both genders.

There are "walk away husbands" just as there are "walk away wives". 

I'm sure that all of us who have divorced ask ourselves often if there was something we could have done differently or something more.

I think that what we need to do is to learn to listen to our spouses, give their concerns credit. And then negotiate for something that both can live with. A lot of people skip the negotiation.. a win/win type of negotiation.

When a person insists that it must be their way.. you must give up all of your hobbies... they don't get that marriage is not about them .

When a person takes the stance that their spouse's complaints/issues are just noise... they don't get that marriage is a partnership and partners work together.

I know that does not answer your question. Maybe your wife just expect you to become someone you are not and you were strong enough to not lose yourself.


.


----------



## Adelais

JukeboxHero said:


> Ya know, this his me kinda deep. I appreciate you posting this, @suprisemyself.
> 
> I'm not sure if I'm one of those husbands that ignored his wife and caused her to be a WAW, but I know she's been checked out of our marriage for awhile now.
> 
> If you want to read some of my threads and give me your thoughts on my situation, I would appreciate it.
> 
> If you want the general gist of it, I can tell you...
> 
> I didn't turn out to be the responsible and "mature" husband my wife was hoping for. I had hobbies and games that I had always enjoyed and desired to continue pursuing to a reduced extent after marriage. I thought I could balance my hobbies and married life and to some extent, I think I did okay. At other times, even I will readily acknowledge I had poor time management/bad timing and made bad decisions.
> My wife wanted me to completely abandon my hobbies (at least those related to games) and was disappointed that I wasn't more future-minded and also wished I was more romantic and "emotionally deep".
> I tried to limit my outings and time on hobbies. For awhile, especially as she started finding other friends at work to hang out with, I thought we had reached a decent compromise. But eventually, she started venting more and more of her frustrations and as she put it, her "bubble" burst. The bubble fantasy where she thought things would work out somehow.
> 
> On the other hand, I think she expected me to change completely--perhaps just become her vision of an ideal husband, make her feel like a princess, etc. She was also a bit more controlling and sometimes seems to monitor and nag almost part of my life, like a mother trying to teach a child how to act (in almost every area of life; from folding clothes, driving, talking to strangers, eating properly, etc. I think it began to wear on my self-confidence and self-worth.
> 
> I'm not sure exactly how to assess my situation. We've actually agreed to divorce and go our separate ways, but everytime I read a thread like this, I wonder if I'm one of these husbands that could've done more to save his marriage.


I'm not sure when surprisemyself is coming back to her thread, so I'll tell you my thought:

According to willard Harley, of His Needs Her Needs, and Marriage Builders/Love Busters, etc. you should have started with finding 15 hours of things you both like to do together, and then filled in whatever time you had left with the things that you like to do which don't involve her. Did you do that?


----------



## MattMatt

My father -an old style journalist of the days of Remington typewriters and eyeshades- told me the story of a competition for the shortest humorous remark about marriage.

The winner was: "aisle, altar, hymn."

Some women do that... and become frustrated because the man they married is no longer there.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

MattMatt said:


> How about when a spouse asks a question that their partner cannot answer? Which might actually not be a genuine question but a relationship bomb disguised as a question?:scratchhead:
> 
> For example: "Why can't you be more like your cousin?"
> 
> I mean, how are you supposed to answer *that* type of question?
> 
> What if the cousin only looks good superficially, but in reality is a crook, a secret spouse beater, for example?


That is an ugly, indirect question that deserves no answer. A woman who addresses issues that way is immature and not helping the relationship one bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

MattMatt said:


> How about when a spouse asks a question that their partner cannot answer? Which might actually not be a genuine question but a relationship bomb disguised as a question?:scratchhead:
> 
> For example: "Why can't you be more like your cousin?"
> 
> I mean, how are you supposed to answer *that* type of question?
> 
> What if the cousin only looks good superficially, but in reality is a crook, a secret spouse beater, for example?


Maybe you ask her what it is about the cousin that she wants you to be more like. Find out what is triggering her. If you feel it's unreasonable to talk about it, you negotiate until there is a mutual agreement. 

maybe?


----------



## just got it 55

“Men marry women with the hope they will never change. Women marry men with the hope they will change. Invariably they are both disappointed.”


― Albert Einstein

55


----------



## JukeboxHero

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I'm not sure when surprisemyself is coming back to her thread, so I'll tell you my thought:
> 
> According to willard Harley, of His Needs Her Needs, and Marriage Builders/Love Busters, etc. you should have started with finding 15 hours of things you both like to do together, and then filled in whatever time you had left with the things that you like to do which don't involve her. Did you do that?


I don't remember exactly. Do you mean 15 hrs a week? (not a day, or a month, I'm assuming). 

I think the results will vary based on each of our selective memories. I thought I would only go out to play 1-2 times a month at most (for most of a Friday evening), but she felt I did it more than that. 

One big issue in the beginning was she was almost completely dependent on me since she came here from the Philippines. She had very few friends outside of me and my family. So, after a months of spending almost 100% of my time with her, I started missing my old "community" of gamers and I wanted to hang out with them again from time to time. 

Also, I felt that I could "go along" with her shopping, looking at clothes, watching her TV shows, let her spend money on Coach purses etc and in return, she would compromise and let me do my games/hobbies and spend money on them. I would try to get her into my hobbies or explain them to her, but she had absolute ZERO interest.

Perhaps I didn't communicate that to her clearly enough, or often enough. Or perhaps she just didn't value my interests enough to even consider them. In retrospect, and after reading NMMNG, I think there were a lot of covert contracts in our relationship. 

It's pretty complicated and there are a lot important details. Someday, I'm going to post the whole thing in it's own thread. For now if you haven't read it, you can refer to my current, up-to-date thread..

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...aving-emotional-breakdown-i-need-help-30.html

In the end, I realized and acknowledged I had made mistakes, but I wanted her to see my side of the story as well. I suggested marriage Counseling (which was free for 3 sessions via my employer's EAP). She refused to go no matter what I said. I told her I wanted to fix the marriage, but her answer was always a variation of "I don't think it can be fixed anymore", "it's too little-too late", "it will never be the same"


----------



## EleGirl

just got it 55 said:


> “Men marry women with the hope they will never change. Women marry men with the hope they will change. Invariably they are both disappointed.”
> 
> ― Albert Einstein
> 
> 55


Cute... I'm sure that we have all heard that before.

But.. it is not necessarily true. While a man might hope that woman not change in looks, a lot of men, if not most, do expect the woman they marry to change.


----------



## just got it 55

EleGirl said:


> Cute... I'm sure that we have all heard that before.
> 
> But.. it is not necessarily true. While a man might hope that woman not change in looks, a lot of men, if not most, do expect the woman they marry to change.


Nice try EG

55


----------



## Adelais

JukeboxHero said:


> I don't remember exactly. Do you mean 15 hrs a week? (not a day, or a month, I'm assuming).
> 
> I think the results will vary based on each of our selective memories. I thought I would only go out to play 1-2 times a month at most (for most of a Friday evening), but she felt I did it more than that.
> 
> One big issue in the beginning was she was almost completely dependent on me since she came here from the Philippines. She had very few friends outside of me and my family. So, after a months of spending almost 100% of my time with her, I started missing my old "community" of gamers and I wanted to hang out with them again from time to time.
> 
> Also, I felt that I could "go along" with her shopping, looking at clothes, watching her TV shows, let her spend money on Coach purses etc and in return, she would compromise and let me do my games/hobbies and spend money on them. I would try to get her into my hobbies or explain them to her, but she had absolute ZERO interest.
> 
> Perhaps I didn't communicate that to her clearly enough, or often enough. Or perhaps she just didn't value my interests enough to even consider them. In retrospect, and after reading NMMNG, I think there were a lot of covert contracts in our relationship.
> 
> It's pretty complicated and there are a lot important details. Someday, I'm going to post the whole thing in it's own thread. For now if you haven't read it, you can refer to my current, up-to-date thread..
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...aving-emotional-breakdown-i-need-help-30.html
> 
> In the end, I realized and acknowledged I had made mistakes, but I wanted her to see my side of the story as well. I suggested marriage Counseling (which was free for 3 sessions via my employer's EAP). She refused to go no matter what I said. I told her I wanted to fix the marriage, but her answer was always a variation of "I don't think it can be fixed anymore", "it's too little-too late", "it will never be the same"


I'm sorry you got hurt. It sounds like you two were incompatable, and she was an entitled spoiled brat. She doesn't sound like a WAW. WAW's are usually married long enough to raise children and see them off to college before they decide it's the right time to leave.


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## EleGirl

just got it 55 said:


> Nice try EG
> 
> 55


Nice try at what?

It's true in many cases.

I know it was in my marriages.

First husband expected me to give up everything that I enjoyed and cater to him. Anything that I tired to keep up with he would criticize and insult until I gave it up just to keep the peace.

Second husband married me with one stated set of expectations. Then after we married.. immediately he expected me to end everything in my life except earning a living and take care of him and his children. It was not what we talked about before we married.

They no longer wanted be to be the person who they spent time with, had fun with and who they wanted to actually have a relationship with. This kind of bate and switch happens quite often.

In both cases once we married, they wanted me to be someone I was not and something that I did not agree to.


.


----------



## just got it 55

EleGirl said:


> Nice try at what?
> 
> It's true in many cases.
> 
> I know it was in my marriages.
> 
> First husband expected me to give up everything that I enjoyed and cater to him. Anything that I tired to keep up with he would criticize and insult until I gave it up just to keep the peace.
> 
> Second husband married me with one stated set of expectations. Then after we married.. immediately he expected me to end everything in my life except earning a living and take care of him and his children. It was not what we talked about before we married.
> 
> They no longer wanted be to be the person who they spent time with, had fun with and who they wanted to actually have a relationship with. This kind of bate and switch happens quite often.
> 
> In both cases once we married, they wanted me to be someone I was not and something that I did not agree to.
> 
> 
> .


I haven't spoke to Albert in quite a while but I'm not sure he meant what you suggest

But... You are free to project all you want

Its a free country

55


----------



## EleGirl

just got it 55 said:


> I haven't spoke to Albert in quite a while but I'm not sure he meant what you suggest
> 
> But... You are free to project all you want
> 
> Its a free country
> 
> 55


Instead of being cryptic and snippy.. it would be nice if you were to explain how you interpret what he meant.


----------



## Thundarr

technovelist said:


> Are you saying that when a wife walks away it is always her husband's fault?


My guess? She's saying when a wife says she's not happy then believe her, when she says she needs something or she's missing something then believe her, and when a wife stops trying to make things better then maybe it's too late. In my opinion the pitfall here is when we disregard what our wives say as being drama or as being a case of them over reacting.

Maybe I'll be setting here some day saying 'I don't know why she left' but I don't think so. I think if we really listen then we should know if our partner is checking out. If my wife ever checks out then I'll move on and remember the past two decades as wonderful. She's free to check out but I'll be surprised if she ever does. Yea I have an issue with being pretty c0cky.


----------



## JukeboxHero

MattMatt said:


> How about when a spouse asks a question that their partner cannot answer? Which might actually not be a genuine question but a relationship bomb disguised as a question?:scratchhead:
> 
> For example: "Why can't you be more like your cousin?"
> 
> I mean, how are you supposed to answer *that* type of question?
> 
> What if the cousin only looks good superficially, but in reality is a crook, a secret spouse beater, for example?


Along this vein, my wife would often wish I was more like...

My sister's husband/her BF's husband (my BIL is cool btw) because they're "gentlemen", treat their wives well, make them feel special, would do anything for them... etc.

Her Ex-BF's; pretty much same as above. She never really said she wanted me to _be_ like them, but despite the fact they all cheated on her, she always likes to remind me "at least they knew how to make me feel special"

My Brother; Because he's into cars, is good at fixing things, etc
(I'm not so mechanically inclined and I'm regretfully not very handy either.

Her Father: because he would cook breakfast for her every morning, fixed stuff for her, did all the chores for her, and basically spoiled her in every way possible.

-The tricky thing about cooking her breakfast is. She like to sleep-in on the weekends. (the only time I could make breakfast for her), she liked it when I was there beside her. She didn't like waking up to food being cold (sometimes she would tell me I should've woken her up--other times she said I should've let her sleep longer).

So basically, I FELT I would have to guess approximately when she would wake up, time b-fast so I could make it w/o waking her up, then go back to bed w/ her until she wakes up with me beside her. 

This might be an exaggeration, because she was usually happy when I at least made breakfast, but they were all her requests or complaints at different times, so I felt uncertain as to what would be the best way to please her on any given day.


----------



## just got it 55

EleGirl said:


> Instead of being cryptic and snippy.. it would be nice if you were to explain how you interpret what he meant.


EG I was not interpreting it in any way Just putting it out there for common thought. In it's simplicity it makes sense to just accept it for what it is not what it means to you me or anybody else.

If we heard it in the context in which he said it, then we would all have a better idea but to me it's fairly clear

It is what it is It makes no gender difference to me we are Contributory negligence in the failures of our relationships.

55


----------



## AliceA

The 70+ year old woman who literally walked out on her husband one day, seemingly out of the blue, though as neighbours we saw how miserable her life was with her husband, was certainly an eye opener for me. I've only ever seen these older people think that that's their lot in life and they live in their miserable marriage until the day they die. I guess in her mind she wanted to live the remainder of her days with some peace and contentment in her life. She took nothing and went to live in a caravan park by herself, and never spoke to her husband again.


----------



## EleGirl

JukeboxHero said:


> Along this vein, my wife would often wish I was more like...
> 
> My sister's husband/her BF's husband (my BIL is cool btw) because they're "gentlemen", treat their wives well, make them feel special, would do anything for them... etc.
> 
> Her Ex-BF's; pretty much same as above. She never really said she wanted me to _be_ like them, but despite the fact they all cheated on her, she always likes to remind me "at least they knew how to make me feel special"
> 
> My Brother; Because he's into cars, is good at fixing things, etc
> (I'm not so mechanically inclined and I'm regretfully not very handy either.
> 
> Her Father: because he would cook breakfast for her every morning, fixed stuff for her, did all the chores for her, and basically spoiled her in every way possible.
> 
> -The tricky thing about cooking her breakfast is. She like to sleep-in on the weekends. (the only time I could make breakfast for her), she liked it when I was there beside her. She didn't like waking up to food being cold (sometimes she would tell me I should've woken her up--other times she said I should've let her sleep longer).
> 
> So basically, I FELT I would have to guess approximately when she would wake up, time b-fast so I could make it w/o waking her up, then go back to bed w/ her until she wakes up with me beside her.
> 
> This might be an exaggeration, because she was usually happy when I at least made breakfast, but they were all her requests or complaints at different times, so I felt uncertain as to what would be the best way to please her on any given day.


Did you tell her how you felt about this?


----------



## Thundarr

SurpriseMyself said:


> He says he's not happy, that he doesn't want this. But he never once said he would fight for us, for our marriage. In his parents relationship, he saw his father basically ignore his mom and take her for granted. She waits on him and finds her happiness in playing the good wife and mother. Her support is from her sisters. Their relationship is very old school, so my STBXH just thinks you shouldn't bring up things you aren't happy about. Just suck it up and keep going, no matter how bad it gets.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sometimes our differing upbringings and pasts make us more incompatible than we could have imagined. Maybe your STBXH is a decent guy yet you guys still have no common ground to meet on.


----------



## AliceA

just got it 55 said:


> I haven't spoke to Albert in quite a while but I'm not sure he meant what you suggest
> 
> But... You are free to project all you want
> 
> Its a free country
> 
> 55


Everyone will interpret things differently because we have all had different life experiences. If you have a different perspective, then share it, but to expect everyone to automatically have the same perspective is absurd.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

SurpriseMyself said:


> After 6 years of trying marriage counseling, communication, reading books, anything I can think of, I finally left my husband. I'm writing now because I'm experiencing something I had not suspected.
> 
> Since leaving, I've had many people I've known for a while confess how they are unhappy in their marriage. All of these people, save one, are women. They've told me how they are struggling, that they've tried to communicate their concerns, but their spouse isn't really listening/taking them seriously. They have considered leaving in the past. These women want to communicate these things with me; they see me as someone who had the courage to make a move when they could not. And some of their husbands are afraid of me, even though I'm not trying to sway anyone one way or the other. I only share my experiences and listen to theirs; I don't give advice.
> 
> I've described on TAM before how women want to feel connection and need to feel heard. I've described how they will voice their concerns, but often men just hear it as nagging and complaining. Their concerns are met with anger, defensiveness, deflection, etc. They aren't met with action. The men think the problem will pass, so they do nothing.
> 
> And sure enough, it seems like it does. Eventually the wife isn't complaining anymore. The truth is, she's giving up. She knows it's useless, so she stops beating her drum.
> 
> From this point, it's only a matter of time. She's checking out, and the longer the problems persist and are not discussed and resolved, the closer to death are her feelings for her husband.
> 
> All the while the man is thinking things are good, but the opposite is true. Her feelings for her man are dying and he has no clue (even though he probably should) until the day she says the word "divorce."
> 
> I've had many open up to me, both men and women. The men will often say things like, "men are just emotionally retarded," "men don't know how to talk about serious things," "men don't want to look weak." As I hear these things, all I really hear are excuses. The idea that "men will be men" allows men to deflect their responsibility to a relationship. It's an archaic notion that doesn't work in our modern society, yet it seems many can't let go of it. And to cling to all these simplistic excuses is to risk all you have, your happiness, your wife's happiness, the security of your family, everything.
> 
> *If you want to prevent a walkaway wife, ask yourself if there's a problem that your wife wanted addressed that you ignored, hoped would go away, didn't talk about, that you pretend like isn't there but you know you did nothing about. If your wife no longer seeks your counsel, no longer wants to be with you, goes on vacations without you, you may find yourself alone and never see it coming. But even that isn't true, since you know you aren't addressing the issues in your marriage. *
> 
> Remember, 80% of divorces in America are filed by women. And those are the women who have the courage to leave. I know just as many women who are sticking it out when they don't love their husband anymore. Is your wife dissatisfied with your marriage and you don't know it? If you don't ask yourself this question, you are risking everything.


SM, THANK YOU for this post. I have two ex husbands who dismissed my feelings and concerns about our marriage. I was told that things were not "that bad" and that I was the one with the problem. Both found themselves on the receiving end of a divorce. 

I also had the same thing happen as you, that women would approach me during/after my divorce with their own situations, seeking some kind of guidance because their husbands were doing the same thing to them. Its a horrible, degrading, isolating feeling. I remember finding this article, I think someone here on TAM posted it, and THIS is what it boils down to:

Why Women Leave Men They Love: What Every Man Needs to Know*|*Justice Schanfarber
*
HUSBANDS....BE PRESENT.* Seriously. Its not that hard. Husbands ignoring and dismissing their wives seems to be an epidemic. Think about couples who you know and their relationship dynamic. How many of the husbands are enthusiastic about their wife... About spending time with her...about her mind, her opinions, how she thinks...about her hobbies or her accomplishments...about their marriage and their life together? I think most of us can agree that the majority of men in our circles are more concerned with themselves and their buddies, and doing their own thing, and complain about their wives. They dont care about actually spending time with them. Rare is the husband we hear or see being enthusiastic about his wife. I dont understand it, and its sad. 

And NO, I am not blaming all relationship issues on men. God knows when I read some of the posts here on TAM by husbands who are being degraded and abused by their wives, I am shocked and appalled. It blows my mind that women will treat a good man the way some of these women do, and that the men stay and tolerate it. After seeing the way my dad treated my mom when I was growing up, I swore that I would never live that way, and so far, I have kept that promise to myself...I wish other people would do the same for themselves, life is too short.


----------



## deg20

When my wife became distant and cold, I noticed. When I asked why...why she was avoiding me...always in her phone...never touching me in bed, I got the same responses..."don't stress me out"...don't guilt me"...

She NEVER communicated. My shortcomings festered inside her and she took out the laundry list at the end. Had we had mature, open conversation about me not going to the camp with her...not wanting to attend parties because of her flirting and my intermittent spurts of introversion...my efforts to tell her kids to clean up their messes...maybe my marriage could have been saved. All my efforts to unveil any reason for discord and dissonance and a growing distance were shut down..."I'm too tired"..."nothing is wrong"...until it was too late.

I made the effort over and over...but this is the woman that never wrote me anything...and buried all issues from her kids to our problems, under the rug...


----------



## just got it 55

breeze said:


> Everyone will interpret things differently because we have all had different life experiences. If you have a different perspective, then share it, but to expect everyone to automatically have the same perspective is absurd.


Read on Cool Breeze

55


----------



## just got it 55

just got it 55 said:


> EG I was not interpreting it in any way Just putting it out there for common thought. In it's simplicity it makes sense to just accept it for what it is not what it means to you me or anybody else.
> 
> If we heard it in the context in which he said it, then we would all have a better idea but to me it's fairly clear
> 
> It is what it is It makes no gender difference to me we are Contributory negligence in the failures of our relationships.
> 
> 55
> 
> 55


----------



## ocotillo

You were doing good right up to this point.



SurpriseMyself said:


> Remember, 80% of divorces in America are filed by women. And those are the women who have the courage to leave.


You do realize how that poisoned your message almost beyond redemption?


----------



## JukeboxHero

EleGirl said:


> Nice try at what?
> 
> It's true in many cases.
> 
> 
> First husband expected me to give up everything that I enjoyed and cater to him. Anything that I tired to keep up with he would criticize and insult until I gave it up just to keep the peace.


Wow, that sounds like my wife, Elegirl. I even asked her how she felt about my games before we got married. She said she was fine with them and even put up with them for awhile. Later she revealed that she never like them even before we got married and expected me to just drop everything because "I'm married now" and Lord know that there are no husbands out there who have any hobbies or games that they play with friends or their children.

On the other hand, I could've been more "present" like 3xnocharm said. This thread is really enlightening. I'm glad to see so many opinions. I certainly hope I can be a better husband for my next wife.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

EleGirl said:


> Cute... I'm sure that we have all heard that before.
> 
> But.. it is not necessarily true. While a man might hope that woman not change in looks, a lot of men, if not most, do expect the woman they marry to change.


I'm guilty as charged.

ETA: I eventually came to value having a partner with a mind of her own over a robot that I programmed. Somehow, it wasn't too late and she's still here.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Hmm, I specifically told my ex I was miserable and his response was that it was my problem and he was happy.

His disdain for me was evident. I once asked him to name one thing I did right, and his response was that he was trying to fix that. 

Ok, you don't like me and I get it. Well I don't like you either but I'm pragmatic and life is short so let's make a fair deal and move on. 

Yet when I divorced him he lost his mind. .... said he thought we were in this "come hvll or high water". He was truly shocked.

Translation: I didn't think it mattered how I treated you because I didn't think you'd go anywhere.

And yes, had he been a better hb I might have stayed married to him. 

Just as well though, I'm remarried to a much better match.

And after 10 years he's still single. ....i guess it's hard to convince women these days that they're beneath you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OpenWindows

lifeistooshort said:


> Translation: I didn't think it mattered how I treated you because I didn't think you'd go anywhere.


QFT.

I think nearly every WAW can identify with this. They didn't think it mattered if they ignored us. Then they didn't think it mattered if they ignored our threats of divorce. When we left, they were surprised, because they'd never really considered the possibility that we might do it.


----------



## JukeboxHero

EleGirl said:


> Did you tell her how you felt about this?


Well, most of this was long ago. 

For instance, my brother opened doors for her once when they did something together while I was at work. She reminded that I should open doors for her more often, like my brother. That comment still affects me today, and I try to remember to open doors for her.

As far as fixing things/cars. I know I've told her that I'm not like them and that fixing things/being a handyman and working on cars is not something I'm particularly good at. It's not in my skill-set.

When she compared me to her Ex's who cheated on her. I don't recall exactly what I said. I just know I was pretty hurt. How could I be worse than them? I know I said that I was offended by that...and something like "You think I'm worse than your Ex's? You would rather be with someone who cheated on you?" 

I believe her response was something along the lines of "I didn't like them cheating on me, but at least they knew how to make me feel special and "they would do anything for me". I argued that I would do anything and tried to make her feel special. She would respond with "No, you don't" or simply that it had been a long time. Funny thing is: I really tried to make her feel special for her B-day and Valentines day last year, but since I opted to work V-day morning (had plans on V-day evening) and we celebrated her B-day the weekend before, she seems so upset that they basically didn't count.

At any rate. I know I've forgotten special occasions before, so in that respect I can see where she's coming from... I think we both needed some lessons in meeting each other's needs, particularly in the last 2 yrs of our marriage.

Btw, Elegirl. Have you recently read my "Wife having and emotional Breakdown" thread? There are a lot of updates in there. 


In short, we've agreed to move on and we've discussed to a varying degree why and how we might separate. During these conversations, I'll sometimes tell her that I'll miss her, that we could still make work or that I still love her. 

My Wife will typically give one of the following responses: (all from various conversations over the past 6 months)

"I think we should just be friends/ I love you but not In love with you"
-"Don't worry, you'll find someone else"
-"Aren't you ready to be attracted to someone else"
- "I hope you find someone who you will fall 'head over heels' in love with and would do anything for her."

A few months ago, she even mentioned that I should find a new GF while she was on vacation. Prior to her leaving, I even joked about it and said "What if I have someone when you come back from vacation".
She said it wouldn't bother her at all and she wouldn't blame me. 

Ironically, while she's been on vacation, she's been a lot friendlier and calls me on a regular basis to check-in. It reminds me of time when she was friendly, cheerful, sweet and charming in the first years of our marriage. I almost wonder if she'll be changed somehow when she comes back.

At this point, I'm doing my best to prepare myself for our impending separation and dissolution of marriage, and working out a plan to improve myself emotionally, mentally,physically and financially...and whatever else I need to work on! 

I'm sure people here at TAM will continue to be of valued assistance!


----------



## SurpriseMyself

ocotillo said:


> You were doing good right up to this point.
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize how that poisoned your message almost beyond redemption?


It's a fact. If it makes you bristle, perhaps it's more important to ask yourself why than dismiss the message because the fact makes you feel something negative.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

ocotillo said:


> You were doing good right up to this point.
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize how that poisoned your message almost beyond redemption?


Yes. Because wouldn't that number include women who are leaving the 'sap' who has supported them for decades for a much younger lover, those who are abandoning their husband and three children for a loser who has just dumped his wife and a newborn baby and so forth?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Starstarfish

There's points of this that really hit home, that I can feel (and fear) in my own relationship. That I express to my husband about hobbies we used to share. His response, "I don't need that in my life anymore." That there are topics we can't discuss because we likely didn't discuss enough our feelings on them before we got married. We went to MC, and at a certain point, I realized we were wasting money we don't really have to try and fix a problem that isn't fixable, I can't talk him into changing, I can't talk him into changing paying a third party to sit there and arbitrate.

Our relationship exists on an even keel by my acceptance to simply stop trying to touch certain topics or things that clearly aren't going to change. That my choices really in the end are gain some sort of peace and acceptance over what our relationship is, and isn't, and evidently never will be. Or ... realize that I can't do that. I have had some really serious times wavering on option number 2. I have cried and mourned what I dreamed my marriage could be and would be. I have questioned if the both of us would be happier apart or with other people.

I'm not blaming him, this isn't a trial. We've both made mistakes. But yes, I stopped complaining. I stopped crying. I stopped bringing up things that never go anywhere. I don't share my heart like I used to, because it's met with nothingness and silence. Or the implication I'm "being too emotional." So, things are better right? I've "gotten over it." I've stopped "complaining about something." But that doesn't hide the pain. It just means that if I become a WAW, our marriage dies with a whimper and not with a scream.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

MattMatt said:


> Yes. Because wouldn't that number include women who are leaving the 'sap' who has supported them for decades for a much younger lover, those who are abandoning their husband and three children for a loser who has just dumped his wife and a newborn baby and so forth?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope that's satire. I've not met the woman who tried and tried to communicate and make her marriage work only to abandon her children and leave for a younger man. I'm sure there are awful women who do exactly what you've described, but the women I know work, are contributing financially and raising ther children, and aren't planning on leaving for some other man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Starstarfish said:


> There's points of this that really hit home, that I can feel (and fear) in my own relationship. That I express to my husband about hobbies we used to share. His response, "I don't need that in my life anymore." That there are topics we can't discuss because we likely didn't discuss enough our feelings on them before we got married. We went to MC, and at a certain point, I realized we were wasting money we don't really have to try and fix a problem that isn't fixable, I can't talk him into changing, I can't talk him into changing paying a third party to sit there and arbitrate.
> 
> Our relationship exists on an even keel by my acceptance to simply stop trying to touch certain topics or things that clearly aren't going to change. That my choices really in the end are gain some sort of peace and acceptance over what our relationship is, and isn't, and evidently never will be. Or ... realize that I can't do that. I have had some really serious times wavering on option number 2. I have cried and mourned what I dreamed my marriage could be and would be. I have questioned if the both of us would be happier apart or with other people.
> 
> I'm not blaming him, this isn't a trial. We've both made mistakes. But yes, I stopped complaining. I stopped crying. I stopped bringing up things that never go anywhere. I don't share my heart like I used to, because it's met with nothingness and silence. Or the implication I'm "being too emotional." So, things are better right? I've "gotten over it." I've stopped "complaining about something." But that doesn't hide the pain. It just means that if I become a WAW, our marriage dies with a whimper and not with a scream.


And walk away you should

55


----------



## MattMatt

SurpriseMyself said:


> I hope that's satire. I've not met the woman who tried and tried to communicate and make her marriage work. I'm sure there are awful women who do exactly what you've described, but the women I know work, are contributing financially and raising ther children, and aren't planning on leaving for some other man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Satire? :wtf:

Clearly you have never visited the CWI section on TAM.

If you think that is satire, well, then I have several bridges for sale thst I might be able to interest you in. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ocotillo

SurpriseMyself said:


> It's a fact. If it makes you bristle, perhaps it's more important to ask yourself why than dismiss the message because the fact makes you feel something negative.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is the antecedent to "It?" --The number or the inference you've drawn from it?


----------



## Ripper

SurpriseMyself said:


> It's a fact. If it makes you bristle, perhaps it's more important to ask yourself why than dismiss the message because the fact makes you feel something negative.


The statistics prove the majority of divorces are filed by women, they don't indicate why. You seem to be inferring that it is because a large number of men are neglectful. 

Someone else could just as easily state that it is because a large number of women are impossible to make happy.


----------



## EleGirl

JukeboxHero said:


> Btw, Elegirl. Have you recently read my "Wife having and emotional Breakdown" thread? There are a lot of updates in there.


I'll need to go read the more recent updates. 

Some people are just hard to deal with. It sounds like she probably is one of them.


----------



## Starstarfish

> And walk away you should
> 
> 55


What's that advice based on?


----------



## MachoMcCoy

SurpriseMyself said:


> Since leaving, I've had many people I've known for a while confess how they are unhappy in their marriage. All of these people, save one, are women.


I am literally short of breath. I'm not going to read past this. There are currently 6 pages:

PLEASE!!!

Please please please.....

Please don't let them be 6 pages of finger pointing.

Please.

I'll come back when I have my composure, a little sleep and a little more time.

I don't know you SM. But I hope they listen to you. I tried and failed.


----------



## EleGirl

MattMatt said:


> Yes. Because wouldn't that number include women who are leaving the 'sap' who has supported them for decades for a much younger lover, those who are abandoning their husband and three children for a loser who has just dumped his wife and a newborn baby and so forth?


Yes, not all women who file for divorce are what we call "walk away wives".

Some are. Some are the types you talk about. Some are women whose husbands cheated on them. Some are women whose husbands walked out. And some are in marriages where both decided that the marriage was over.

Women tend to file more because it's left up to them to do this. It does not mean that they are the ones who necessarily 'walked'. Women often file first because they have children with them and need the support.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

MattMatt said:


> Satire? :wtf:
> 
> Clearly you have never visited the CWI section on TAM.
> 
> If you think that is satire, well, then I have several bridges for sale thst I might be able to interest you in.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ever read anything about WHY women cheat? And by the way, this thread is about how to prevent a walkaway wife. If it helps you figure out why she cheated, then great. Some women cheat because they feel neglected and lonely. Some men do the same. But it seems lots of men cling to excuses as to why they can't be good husbands when the truth is that what a good husband is has changed.


----------



## EleGirl

MattMatt said:


> Satire? :wtf:
> 
> Clearly you have never visited the CWI section on TAM.
> 
> If you think that is satire, well, then I have several bridges for sale thst I might be able to interest you in.


Most women do not cheat, just like most men do not cheat.

TAM and CWI is a self selected group. The only thing it tells us is that some women cheat, some men cheat and some of those who are BS come to TAM for support.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Someone else could just as easily state that it is because a large number of women are impossible to make happy.


And there aren't men who are impossible to make happy?

Experience with the internet tells me some people are just generally unhappy.


----------



## turnera

technovelist said:


> The short version is that the wife is upset about something and the husband won't address it.
> 
> So if he was a better husband and addressed the problem, she wouldn't walk away.
> 
> Is that right?


Yeah, pretty much.

Did you marry your wife intending to listen to her, care about her concerns, and FIX those concerns? Many men do, but in reality most men either don't know how to or were not prepared to, growing up. 

Men Are From Mars...


----------



## turnera

breeze said:


> The 70+ year old woman who literally walked out on her husband one day, seemingly out of the blue, though as neighbours we saw how miserable her life was with her husband, was certainly an eye opener for me. I've only ever seen these older people think that that's their lot in life and they live in their miserable marriage until the day they die. I guess in her mind she wanted to live the remainder of her days with some peace and contentment in her life. She took nothing and went to live in a caravan park by herself, and never spoke to her husband again.


I'm almost 60; 35+ years of marriage. If money weren't an issue, I'd be long gone. I first decided to leave when DD25 was in junior high; I was going to wait until she was in high school (and yes, I'd taken him to therapy to tell him how unhappy I was; he never changed). Then when she was in high school, and our money issues were mounting, I said I'd pay off the bills ($70,000+) and then leave when she graduated. Then when she went away to college I said I'd leave when I got the bills paid off again. And yes, every step I've informed him of how unhappy, I've taken him back to therapy, I've gotten close to just leaving life than having to stay. Still he didn't change. And yes, he knew how unhappy I was. But because I never actually left, he never felt the real need to look at himself, to change things.

So yes, if I can dig out of the mountain of debt he's created, I just might disappear at age 70 and live in a travel trailer and FINALLY be happy.


----------



## EleGirl

One thing that we need to remember about the topic of this thread is not talking about every marriage. It's not talking about every woman or every man.

It is talking about a particular type of situation that affects some subset of couples who end up divorced.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

turnera said:


> I'm almost 60; 35+ years of marriage. If money weren't an issue, I'd be long gone. I first decided to leave when DD25 was in junior high; I was going to wait until she was in high school (and yes, I'd taken him to therapy to tell him how unhappy I was; he never changed). Then when she was in high school, and our money issues were mounting, I said I'd pay off the bills ($70,000+) and then leave when she graduated. Then when she went away to college I said I'd leave when I got the bills paid off again. And yes, every step I've informed him of how unhappy, I've taken him back to therapy, I've gotten close to just leaving life than having to stay. Still he didn't change. And yes, he knew how unhappy I was. But because I never actually left, he never felt the real need to look at himself, to change things.
> 
> So yes, if I can dig out of the mountain of debt he's created, I just might disappear at age 70 and live in a travel trailer and FINALLY be happy.


Bankruptcy could have gotten you out all those years ago, and can still get you out now. Just sayin. I had to do it to leave XH2. Excuse/barrier gone, just like that. 

Sorry bout the thread-jack!


----------



## ExiledBayStater

SurpriseMyself said:


> It's a fact. If it makes you bristle, perhaps it's more important to ask yourself why than dismiss the message because the fact makes you feel something negative.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Put bluntly, I percieve a caustic tone in the OP and in the response I quoted above. It's misdirected. The people who would read a thread titled "how to prevent a walkaway wife" are not the neglectful, uncaring husbands that need a wakeup call.

There is the small matter that this thread is broadcasting advice. Then when someone gently advised you in turn, you told him off.

I can't speak for @ocotillo, but nothing in the thread makes me bristle. Personally, it made me roll my eyes, tiptoe into the bedroom, and fix the pillows for my pregnant sleeping wife.


----------



## EleGirl

ExiledBayStater said:


> Put bluntly, I percieve a caustic tone in the OP and in the response I quoted above. It's misdirected. The people who would read a thread titled "how to prevent a walkaway wife" are not the neglectful, uncaring husbands that need a wakeup call.
> 
> There is the small matter that this thread is broadcasting advice. Then when someone gently advised you in turn, you told him off.
> 
> I can't speak for @ocotillo, but nothing in the thread makes me bristle. Personally, it made me roll my eyes, tiptoe into the bedroom, and fix the pillows for my pregnant sleeping wife.


I think that this thread could be seen as talking to women as much as to men. Woman have a huge stake in learning about the WAW dynamics and how to prevent their marriage from going that route.

.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

Starstarfish said:


> And there aren't men who are impossible to make happy?


Sure there are. The statistic of divorce filings by gender is a magnet for gender warfare all around.


----------



## john117

SurpriseMyself said:


> "Upset about something" is not it. This is about the core of the marriage. If there's lack of connection, that's not "upset about something." That's the core of the marriage and it's dying.
> 
> I think you are a good example of how men don't understand this. Keep asking questions.


If you think men have the monopoly on this, you need to meet my oblivious wife.

Walkaway Husband don't sound as good


----------



## ExiledBayStater

EleGirl said:


> I think that this thread could be seen as talking to women as much as to men. Woman have a huge stake in learning about the WAW dynamics and how to prevent their marriage from going that route.
> 
> .


It has insights that are valuable to women, true. Especially in the followups and reponses.

The original post makes repeated mentions of "your wife." I'm pretty confident that it's aimed at men.

If women skim through that and glean what they need, that's great.


----------



## AliceA

john117 said:


> If you think men have the monopoly on this, you need to meet my oblivious wife.
> 
> Walkaway Husband don't sound as good


You're right, but I can't think of an appropriate alliteration.


----------



## TRy

SurpriseMyself said:


> Remember, 80% of divorces in America are filed by women. And those are the women who have the courage to leave. I know just as many women who are sticking it out when they don't love their husband anymore. Is your wife dissatisfied with your marriage and you don't know it? If you don't ask yourself this question, you are risking everything.


 If 50% of all marriages end in divorce, and 80% of those divorces are filed by women because as you say the husband did not ask themselves if their wife was "dissatisfied", then doing the math you are saying that 40% (80% of 50% = 40%) of all marriages will end in divorce because of the husband being at fault. Additionally, if as you say that "just as many women who are sticking it out when they don't love their husband anymore", then 80% of the remaining 50% would give you another 40% (again 80% of 50% = 40%) of all marriages. Adding both statements together (40% + 40%) means that you are saying that 80% of all women in marraiges are "dissatisfied" with their husbands, and it is the fault of the husband. Here is a thought. If 80% of all men are doing this, maybe it is normal for men to think this way, and maybe the husband should not be blamed and vivified for thinking like a normal male.


----------



## TRy

EleGirl said:


> One thing that we need to remember about the topic of this thread is not talking about every marriage. It's not talking about every woman or every man.
> 
> It is talking about a particular type of situation that affects some subset of couples who end up divorced.


 If you look at the math that I just posted in a prior post, you will see that although the OP is not talking about "every marriage", the OP is talking about 80% of all marraiges. That is more than just "some subset" of couples. The OP is saying that this is the norm.


----------



## TRy

turnera said:


> So yes, if I can dig out of the mountain of debt he's created, I just might disappear at age 70 and live in a travel trailer and FINALLY be happy.


 I bet that many men are thinking the same thought, accept that instead of blaming mountains of debt, they are more likely blaming unfair divorce laws. Fix the divorce laws, and women will no longer make up 80% of the spouses filing for divorce.


----------



## EleGirl

TRy said:


> If 50% of all marriages end in divorce, and 80% of those divorces are filed by women because as you say the husband did not ask themselves if their wife was "dissatisfied", then doing the math you are saying that 40% (80% of 50% = 40%) of all marriages will end in divorce because of the husband being at fault.


Nope... you are apparently assuming that all of the divorces filed by women are WAW situations. They are not. There divorces filed by women for many other reasons. Sometimes it's because the husband left her and she does not want to be left in limbo. 



TRy said:


> Additionally, if as you say that "just as many women who are sticking it out when they don't love their husband anymore", then 80% of the remaining 50% would give you another 40% (again 80% of 50% = 40%) of all marriages. Adding both statements together (40% + 40%) means that you are saying that 80% of all women in marraiges are "dissatisfied" with their husbands, and it is the fault of the husband. Here is a thought. If 80% of all men are doing this, maybe it is normal for men to think this way, and maybe the husband should not be blamed and vivified for thinking like a normal male.


I think that her numbers are off... I don't think that 80% of all women are unhappy in their marriages.

But that said, if it is normal for men to neglect their wives and their marriages, then what's the purpose of marriage? Why would a woman want to stay married to that?

I have a lot more faith in men, men can learn... even if most men are like that. And I do not think that most men are.


----------



## EleGirl

Here is a chart that I found that shows the reasons for divorce.

It is not always the woman ending the relationship.. even if the woman files.

Divorce in America: Who Wants Out and Why? | Austin Institute


----------



## EleGirl

TRy said:


> I bet that many men are thinking the same thought, accept that instead of blaming mountains of debt, they are more likely blaming unfair divorce laws. Fix the divorce laws, and women will no longer make up 80% of the spouses filing for divorce.


The highest divorce rates are among young married people and poor married people.. the very ones who have little to nothing. And they usually occur during a time period in the marriage before things like alimony kick in. Divorce laws have very little to do with whether or not people in these demographics get divorced. 

The more education and income a couple has (that applies to the wife too) the less likely they are to get divorced... the divorce rate is low in this demographic.


----------



## Mostlycontent

MattMatt said:


> How about when a spouse asks a question that their partner cannot answer? Which might actually not be a genuine question but a relationship bomb disguised as a question?:scratchhead:
> 
> For example: "Why can't you be more like your cousin?"
> 
> I mean, how are you supposed to answer *that* type of question?
> 
> What if the cousin only looks good superficially, but in reality is a crook, a secret spouse beater, for example?



Great point, MattMatt. I like to call this the old bait and switch from the wives. I think they marry a guy, assume they can change him, and then get disillusioned when he's not everything they wanted in a husband. My wife has desired changes in me over the years and I have tried my best in some areas but not in others.

Candidly, I didn't sign up to have someone give me a total makeover. Perhaps that's how a lot of husbands feel. Admittedly, I'm pretty rough around the edges and I've rarely been accused of being a nice guy. While I've made some improvements in myself over the years, as we all should strive to do, I'm not about changing everything in my personality because my wife might like it better. I actually like me most of the time and if she doesn't then perhaps she needs to examine her motives and readjust her expectations. 

I strongly believe that people feel entitled to a whole lot of things that they are not entitled to at all. Happiness is the most common and elusive of all. People all feel that they should be happy in their marriage without realizing that happiness comes from within and not from another person. Happiness comes from doing the right thing and not just doing every impulsive thing that you want to do. By the way, where does the idea even come from that you or I or anyone is owed happiness. 

The reality is that we are not entitled to anything but instead should make the best of our situations and circumstances so that we can be a positive guide or role model for others. Unfortunately, it seems that fewer and fewer people are interested in doing the right thing by their spouses, their children or their family.

I've seen people who have everything that are very unhappy and I've seen people who've had incredibly difficult lives that are very happy.

Now I'll get down from my soapbox because threads like this just irritate me. It just comes across as a complete blamefest and excuse making to support one's actions. I had a high school teacher once tell me that "excuses satisfy those who make them". I have never forgotten that.


----------



## Mostlycontent

deg20 said:


> When my wife became distant and cold, I noticed. When I asked why...why she was avoiding me...always in her phone...never touching me in bed, I got the same responses..."don't stress me out"...don't guilt me"...
> 
> She NEVER communicated. My shortcomings festered inside her and she took out the laundry list at the end. Had we had mature, open conversation about me not going to the camp with her...not wanting to attend parties because of her flirting and my intermittent spurts of introversion...my efforts to tell her kids to clean up their messes...maybe my marriage could have been saved. All my efforts to unveil any reason for discord and dissonance and a growing distance were shut down..."I'm too tired"..."nothing is wrong"...until it was too late.
> 
> I made the effort over and over...but this is the woman that never wrote me anything...and buried all issues from her kids to our problems, under the rug...



My wife and I have been married for 30 years and not all of those years have been good. In fact, some of them were just mediocre and some of them were really tough. I think a lot of it has to do with what's happening in the family during those times.

For example, when both my wife and I were so busy with work, kids and live in elderly MIL that we didn't really have any time for each other, we really struggled. I recall even asking for us to spend more time together to rekindle our connection but was usually seen as an additional burden to her already swamped schedule. 

So as you surmise, it isn't always the man's fault. It takes two to make an effort and make marriage work. I've found it frustrating at times when my wife doesn't prioritize our marriage as I think she should. Then she has the gall to wonder why I'm unhappy about it at times. 

My interpretation is that some people like to complain but aren't really interested in fixing anything. They just enjoy complaining. Whenever my wife and I have struggled in our marriage, it has almost always been as a result of not spending quality time together and doing the things that we enjoy. During those times, I have requested that we do more together. If I am rebuffed or she doesn't feel she has the time, I no longer try because it takes two in a marriage. It always has.


----------



## EleGirl

Mostlycontent said:


> Great point, MattMatt. I like to call this the old bait and switch from the wives. I think they marry a guy, assume they can change him, and then get disillusioned when he's not everything they wanted in a husband. My wife has desired changes in me over the years and I have tried my best in some areas but not in others.
> 
> Candidly, I didn't sign up to have someone give me a total makeover. Perhaps that's how a lot of husbands feel. Admittedly, I'm pretty rough around the edges and I've rarely been accused of being a nice guy. While I've made some improvements in myself over the years, as we all should strive to do, I'm not about changing everything in my personality because my wife might like it better. I actually like me most of the time and if she doesn't then perhaps she needs to examine her motives and readjust her expectations.
> 
> I strongly believe that people feel entitled to a whole lot of things that they are not entitled to at all. Happiness is the most common and elusive of all. People all feel that they should be happy in their marriage without realizing that happiness comes from within and not from another person. Happiness comes from doing the right thing and not just doing every impulsive thing that you want to do. By the way, where does the idea even come from that you or I or anyone is owed happiness.
> 
> The reality is that we are not entitled to anything but instead should make the best of our situations and circumstances so that we can be a positive guide or role model for others. Unfortunately, it seems that fewer and fewer people are interested in doing the right thing by their spouses, their children or their family.
> 
> I've seen people who have everything that are very unhappy and I've seen people who've had incredibly difficult lives that are very happy.
> 
> Now I'll get down from my soapbox because threads like this just irritate me. It just comes across as a complete blamefest and excuse making to support one's actions. I had a high school teacher once tell me that "excuses satisfy those who make them". I have never forgotten that.


So the assumption is that if a woman is unsatisfied in her marriage it's because she is trying to change the man or is expecting something unreasonable?

Why is this the assumption?

Is it unreasonable for a woman to expect her husband to actually spend some time with her and do things with her? Are you suggesting that a woman whose husband will not spend any time with here should stay in the marriage and just shut up because wanting to actually have a relationship with her husband is apparently selfish?

Is it unreasonable for a women who works full time, does most or all of the child care and all of the chores/homecare to except that her husband take on an equal amount of responsibility? Because what you are suggesting is that her wanting this is her trying to change her husband and thus unreasonable and selfish.

What if the above situation is a man who works full time and then comes home to do all of he housework and child care. Is he being selfish and unreasonable wanting his wife to pull and equal share?

On one hand I get your point that sometimes people need to not be so self centered and find a balance. 

But there are also a lot of marriage, in which one of the spouse is being ignored, taken advantage of or otherwise stuck in a bad relationship. Are these people just supposed to shut up and put up?


----------



## MattMatt

SurpriseMyself said:


> Ever read anything about WHY women cheat? And by the way, this thread is about how to prevent a walkaway wife. If it helps you figure out why she cheated, then great. Some women cheat because they feel neglected and lonely. Some men do the same. But it seems lots of men cling to excuses as to why they can't be good husbands when the truth is that what a good husband is has changed.


Exactly the same reason as men cheat. They identify a problem in their marriage and decide to fix it by having sexual relations with someone they are not married to. 

Or they decided the young buck/babe they meet through work or in a bar who is half the age of their wife/husband, is their soulmate?

It is like someone who decides they need more income so starts stealing from their employer. 

Both cheater and thief feel entitled so just do who or what they feel is right for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OpenWindows

It makes me sad that people need to know how the WAW situation looks from a female perspective, so they can understand and help prevent it. But threads about it always seem to degenerate into blaming and nitpicking bits of data to prove the WAW is "wrong". 

If you don't wanna hear it, that's fine. But it can still happen in your home, even if you ignore it. In fact, ignoring issues is usually a key factor in WAW syndrome. So the people who need to hear this are the type to stick their heads in the sand, and then wonder why their wife left.

Both parties share blame in the situation. Many WAW are left feeling like they chose poorly and married the wrong person. I know I married the wrong person, and that's not his fault. But I also know that I begged him for the same things for 10 years, and he never took me seriously. While we were together, he didn't want to fix it... he liked the arrangement where he got what he wanted and didn't have to put forth any effort. He fought to hold on to that, and convince me it should be good enough for me.

He couldn't give me happiness, I had to find that inside myself. And I found it when I started respecting myself enough to see that I didn't have to let someone treat me like that. So I walked, and I found my happiness. He can say I didn't communicate enough, that I should have tried harder to make him understand... but I don't really want to be with someone who only acknowledges my needs when I threaten to leave them. 

So what I learned from this, is that I need to be louder and more insistent about my needs, instead of giving up when the fight gets me nowhere. And if a man doesn't actually WANT to hear me, I'm gone.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

ExiledBayStater said:


> Put bluntly, I percieve a caustic tone in the OP and in the response I quoted above. It's misdirected. The people who would read a thread titled "how to prevent a walkaway wife" are not the neglectful, uncaring husbands that need a wakeup call.
> 
> There is the small matter that this thread is broadcasting advice. Then when someone gently advised you in turn, you told him off.
> 
> I can't speak for @ocotillo, but nothing in the thread makes me bristle. Personally, it made me roll my eyes, tiptoe into the bedroom, and fix the pillows for my pregnant sleeping wife.


Exiled - you are absolutely right, and thank you for getting me to see it. Here's my own list of excuses, followed by a correction. First, I just assume men are stubborn and unc hanging, even when changing some things would improve their lives and relationships. I can't think of one man I know, including family, who would really be receptive to what I'm saying here. The second thing is TAM generally, which seems to have many vocal men who have been burned or are hurting and take out their feelings on female posters like me. Because of this, I guess I needed to provide some "proof" through a divorce statistic so men would take me seriously. After all, my STBXH never took my feelings seriously, no matter how much I shared. But a statistic is not my proof. My proof is my life experience - frustrated and unhappy and disconnected from him. And I wanted others, and yes, especially men, to understand that may be the way their spouse feels right now.

And now, the correction: I will remove that line in my original post. It wasn't meant to shame - it was meant to break through. I spent 10 years trying to break through to my STBXH, and found myself lost as to how to get anything to stick. There's no need for the hammer, so I'm setting it down.

Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Starstarfish said:


> What's that advice based on?


No one should make you feel irrelevant and insignificant
least of all your spouse. Not giving any credence to your spouse's feelings or concerns shows a clear lack of caring.

You may not agree with the issues raised by your spouse but you damn well better work to make them understood.

55


----------



## OpenWindows

SurpriseMyself said:


> I spent 10 years trying to break through to my STBXH, and found myself lost as to how to get anything to stick. There's no need for the hammer, so I'm setting it down.


I was SO HAPPY when I started dating again and realized I didn't need that hammer any more. Finding someone who wanted to hear me changed everything!


----------



## Cosmos

Excellent post, SurpriseMyself. You have described very accurately what I've heard so many women complain about in their marriages.

When that emotional connection is so missing in a relationship that a W feels she is not being heard, it truly is only a matter of time before the relationship completely disintegrates... That feeling of sadness, dissatisfaction and abject loneliness can only be endured for so long before the desperate need to escape kicks in. By the time it does, all feeling has gone...


----------



## AliceA

EleGirl said:


> But there are also a lot of marriage, in which one of the spouse is being ignored, taken advantage of or otherwise stuck in a bad relationship. Are these people just supposed to shut up and put up?


Shut up and put out more like, heh.


----------



## turnera

MattMatt said:


> Exactly the same reason as men cheat. They identify a problem in their marriage and decide to fix it by having sexual *or emotional* relations with someone they are not married to.


Fixed that for you. Since if you're discussing women, it's usually the emotional component for which they cheat.


----------



## ocotillo

ExiledBayStater said:


> I can't speak for @ocotillo, but nothing in the thread makes me bristle. Personally, it made me roll my eyes, tiptoe into the bedroom, and fix the pillows for my pregnant sleeping wife.


No bristling from me. I thought it was a good message that every man should hear.

But people are people and they will latch on to a factual inaccuracy (Or what they perceive to be a factual inaccuracy) and reject the whole message because of it, which was all I was trying to point out.

The gender disparity in divorce initiation has been cited by various groups and each one has spun it to their advantage. Feminists have cited it as proof of male oppression. MRA / Redpill types have cited it as proof that women are "evil" and will "trade up" the first chance they get.

I think the gender warriors are both out to lunch here, but I don't know what the correct answer is myself. Every single study I've read has given a slightly different answer, which suggests that the disparity may be attributable to a hodgepodge of different reasons or that we may simply not understand it yet.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I think it's a lot more common than people think. IMO So many men don't notice their wife is in the WAW stage until sex stops. Then they want to fix sex trying to talk her into or pressuring her to have sex with a man she has no connection with and has put a wall up between. Even when her needs are addressed at this point it's like a vending machine. Oh, you needed date nights? Well here's one, now can I have my sex? Oh, you needed more help around the house when the kids were young? I spent a few weeks doing chores, where's my reward?

That's just not how it works but at that point when he "tries everything" the thing that is missing is consistency, time. A few things are tried, don't work (to get sex) so they stop, or it's done for the wrong reasons and the journey to get there isn't addressed. 

I know with my H he likes to solve problems this way. I'll ask, I'll be upset, I'll withdrawal, I'll come back around between them a few times and then he'll finally do the thing I had needed but by that point it's not going to do much because now we have to address the feelings of neglect, like I'm not being listened to. Now he's just doing X because I've pretty much forced him to.

This is where "I want you to WANT to" comes in. We don't want a man who just takes orders and does what he's told. We _do _want a man who listens to us and wants to meet our needs by doing the things we've asked for. 


I really believe in the concept of love banks. You put things in to meet emotional needs, stuff comes out when stuff that upsets them happens. 

A WAW just has an negative balance love bank. To come back around there would need to be time to fill it up again with EN and stopping negative situations. When you get back into a positive balance she may take down her walls a little and let him in but there will be a lot of putting in before you see any improvements AND often she comes back around through conflict so it could end up a situation where it gets worse before it gets better.


----------



## MattMatt

turnera said:


> Fixed that for you. Since if you're discussing women, it's usually the emotional component for which they cheat.


Actually it was an EA with me. Which, of course, went PA. So you make a good point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I think it's a lot more common than people think. IMO So many men don't notice their wife is in the WAW stage until sex stops. Then they want to fix sex trying to talk her into or pressuring her to have sex with a man she has no connection with and has put a wall up between. Even when her needs are addressed at this point it's like a vending machine. Oh, you needed date nights? Well here's one, now can I have my sex? Oh, you needed more help around the house when the kids were young? I spent a few weeks doing chores, where's my reward?
> 
> That's just not how it works but at that point when he "tries everything" the thing that is missing is consistency, time. A few things are tried, don't work (to get sex) so they stop, or it's done for the wrong reasons and the journey to get there isn't addressed.
> 
> I know with my H he likes to solve problems this way. I'll ask, I'll be upset, I'll withdrawal, I'll come back around between them a few times and then he'll finally do the thing I had needed but by that point it's not going to do much because now we have to address the feelings of neglect, like I'm not being listened to. Now he's just doing X because I've pretty much forced him to.
> 
> This is where "I want you to WANT to" comes in. We don't want a man who just takes orders and does what he's told. We _do _want a man who listens to us and wants to meet our needs by doing the things we've asked for.
> 
> 
> I really believe in the concept of love banks. You put things in to meet emotional needs, stuff comes out when stuff that upsets them happens.
> 
> *A WAW just has an negative balance love bank. To come back around there would need to be time to fill it up again with EN and stopping negative situations. When you get back into a positive balance she may take down her walls a little and let him in but there will be a lot of putting in before you see any improvements AND often she comes back around through conflict so it could end up a situation where it gets worse before it gets better*.


 @gridcom

This last paragraph made me think of your post this morning. Just something to consider.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I think it's a lot more common than people think. IMO So many men don't notice their wife is in the WAW stage until sex stops. Then they want to fix sex trying to talk her into or pressuring her to have sex with a man she has no connection with and has put a wall up between. Even when her needs are addressed at this point it's like a vending machine. Oh, you needed date nights? Well here's one, now can I have my sex? Oh, you needed more help around the house when the kids were young? I spent a few weeks doing chores, where's my reward?


Oh, don't even get me started. You know what two of my biggest issues are? That he leaves dirty Qtips all over the house and just assumes I'll pick them up. Since I'm the woman (and no, he's not dumb enough to actually say that out loud). And that he takes his socks off AFTER sitting down on the couch and then they become invisible to him. Because some magical 'female fairy' is going to pick them up for him. The last big blowout we had, last summer, he SWORE he was finally going to start picking up his own socks. That he KNEW it was wrong for him to expect me to do it. There's a pair on the floor at the couch this very moment. His change lasted all of two weeks. (and yes, I know it's my fault for not riding him about it)

It's not the actual things like that that cause women to withdraw. It's the fact that they KNOW things bother us and still choose not to adjust; OUR feelings just aren't important enough. It's a constant, daily insult.


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## OpenWindows

My XH treated my love bank more like a gas tank than a bank account. He thought if it was empty, he could put in $2 worth to keep me running for a while.

He didn't understand that he was so far in overdraft, $2 every now and then made no real progress.

And I didn't know how to communicate that in a way that he would understand and believe.


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## lifeistooshort

I don't trust statistics. They're usually compiled by people with an agenda and very easy to manipulate. Technovelist knows I'm right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## knobcreek

Once a wife has it in her head that she deserves more than her husband there's nothing he can do, it's so simple for her to move onto that tingly new love, no way a husband of 15 - 20 years can compete with that new excitement.


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## OpenWindows

knobcreek said:


> Once a wife has it in her head that she deserves more than her husband there's nothing he can do, it's so simple for her to move onto that tingly new love, no way a husband of 15 - 20 years can compete with that new excitement.


Why do you assume there's a new love? Sometimes we're just fed up.

I didn't even date again for nearly a year after leaving my marriage.


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## lifeistooshort

OpenWindows said:


> Why do you assume there's a new love? Sometimes we're just fed up.
> 
> I didn't even date again for nearly a year after leaving my marriage.


Didn't you know that the only reason women leave is for other men? Consider yourself schooled 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist

turnera said:


> Yeah, pretty much.
> 
> Did you marry your wife intending to listen to her, care about her concerns, and FIX those concerns? Many men do, but in reality most men either don't know how to or were not prepared to, growing up.
> 
> Men Are From Mars...


Yes to all of the above.

We just celebrated our 20th anniversary of our first meeting. So far, so good!


----------



## tech-novelist

turnera said:


> I'm almost 60; 35+ years of marriage. If money weren't an issue, I'd be long gone. I first decided to leave when DD25 was in junior high; I was going to wait until she was in high school (and yes, I'd taken him to therapy to tell him how unhappy I was; he never changed). Then when she was in high school, and our money issues were mounting, I said I'd pay off the bills ($70,000+) and then leave when she graduated. Then when she went away to college I said I'd leave when I got the bills paid off again. And yes, every step I've informed him of how unhappy, I've taken him back to therapy, I've gotten close to just leaving life than having to stay. Still he didn't change. And yes, he knew how unhappy I was. But because I never actually left, he never felt the real need to look at himself, to change things.
> 
> So yes, if I can dig out of the mountain of debt he's created, I just might disappear at age 70 and live in a travel trailer and FINALLY be happy.


Why not just leave and declare bankruptcy? Is it student loan debt?


----------



## just got it 55

turnera said:


> Oh, don't even get me started. You know what two of my biggest issues are? That he leaves dirty Qtips all over the house and just assumes I'll pick them up. Since I'm the woman (and no, he's not dumb enough to actually say that out loud). And that he takes his socks off AFTER sitting down on the couch and then they become invisible to him. Because some magical 'female fairy' is going to pick them up for him. The last big blowout we had, last summer, he SWORE he was finally going to start picking up his own socks. That he KNEW it was wrong for him to expect me to do it. There's a pair on the floor at the couch this very moment. His change lasted all of two weeks. (and yes, I know it's my fault for not riding him about it)
> 
> It's not the actual things like that that cause women to withdraw. It's the fact that they KNOW things bother us and still choose not to adjust; OUR feelings just aren't important enough. It's a constant, daily insult.


My wife use to get upset that I would put my T shirts in the laundry inside out So....eventually she just washed them that way So....I then use to go into the laundry and turn hers inside out

Well she didn't think that was funny. But really I get angry at myself for having to turn them around to be able to ware them I'm pretty good at it now.

The thing is my wife tolerates my quirks better now that I woke up a few years ago. But truthfully it's a work in progress.

55


----------



## OpenWindows

lifeistooshort said:


> Didn't you know that the only reason women leave is for other men? Consider yourself schooled


Don't worry, my XH made sure I was well-educated about this when I left him.


----------



## turnera

just got it 55 said:


> My wife use to get upset that I would put my T shirts in the laundry inside out So....eventually she just washed them that way So....I then use to go into the laundry and turn hers inside out
> 
> Well she didn't think that was funny. But really I get angry at myself for having to turn them around to be able to ware them I'm pretty good at it now.
> 
> The thing is my wife tolerates my quirks better now that I woke up a few years ago. But truthfully it's a work in progress.
> 
> 55


See, women aren't looking for perfection. Most of us love to take care of our man, and will spoil him silly. If we just get something in return. 

Gotta point out, though...you would go to the extra EFFORT of turning hers inside out - when SHE is doing YOUR laundry - but you wouldn't go to the effort of turning YOURS rightside out in the first place out of consideration?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Ripper said:


> The statistics prove the majority of divorces are filed by women, they don't indicate why. You seem to be inferring that it is because a large number of men are neglectful.
> 
> Someone else could just as easily state that it is because a large number of women are impossible to make happy.


Yep, thank you for redressing the balance a bit. This thread has been making me angry because its all about men failing in the husband role. Very little has been said about women going into marriage with unrealistic ideas, "Oh, it'll be just like a fairy tale", and frequently their inability to really communicate what their issues really are.

My dear WW, after having an affair, blamed me for it saying that she'd been expressing her unhappiness for the previous 10 years. Ok, I admit to being the stoic, soldier on, better times will come type of person who didn't tell her about what I didn't enjoy in our marriage (not enough sex, always the initiator, etc). But her occasional tears were simply put down to being that sad day in the month, there was no clear message.

Life IS a compromise, it's not a ****ing Disney film, it's never perfect.


----------



## ocotillo

lifeistooshort said:


> Didn't you know that the only reason women leave is for other men? Consider yourself schooled
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There was a book a few years ago entitled _Women's Infidelity: Living in Limbo: What Women Really Mean When They Say, "I'm Not Happy"_

It wasn't exactly a best seller, but I think it did relatively well.

The author, Michelle Langley, took the gender disparity in divorce initiation and put *exactly* that spin on it. 

--Basically claimed that women are not "wired" for LTR's and that they are predisposed to falling out of love after a few years because limerence is what you really crave above all else.

Maybe that's utter bollocks. I don't know. But it does help to put male confusion into perspective.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

A WAW is a lot more vulnerable for an affair IMO.

Going a long time without your emotional needs being met, someone comes a long and gives you a little taste of them and they fall right into affair land fog.

But that doesn't mean that a WAW is just a woman having or looking for an affair or thinking the grass is greener.

But her occasional tears were simply put down to being that sad day in the month, there was no clear message.

My H does this as well, thinks that if I'm upset I am just having a bad day and I'll just get over it. There is a clear message if they would listen- and like Turnera, not just at the fact that we are upset about q-tips but the underlying dismissal and lack of care about our feelings.

This is why when we stop trying, stop "nagging", stop crying, they think we're fine and nothing is wrong but we did try, it was just dismissed and not listened to.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Florida_rosbif said:


> Yep, thank you for redressing the balance a bit. This thread has been making me angry because its all about men failing in the husband role. Very little has been said about women going into marriage with unrealistic ideas, "Oh, it'll be just like a fairy tale", and frequently their inability to really communicate what their issues really are.


See?? Right here you dismissed ALL of us women. What makes you think that every woman goes into marriage with unrealistic ideas?? I don't think that ANY person with the expectation of having their needs and feelings acknowledged and respected is even close to being unrealistic. We ALL (men and women) need to be heard. We ALL need things from our partners that make us feel loved and wanted. And we should ALL want to give that to our partners.


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## OpenWindows

Some women (and some men) really do go into marriage with unrealistic expectations. But if that's the case, her husband should communicate that, and not just ignore the expectations he doesn't like. The ignoring is what causes the walkaway, not the actual expectations.

If my XH had told me that he felt my requests were unfair, we could have worked toward a common ground. But instead he just quietly blew them off, and left me to interpret why he might do that. My interpretation was that my needs were not a priority to him, and that caused resentment instead of compromise.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

OpenWindows said:


> Some women (and some men) really do go into marriage with unrealistic expectations. But if that's the case, her husband should communicate that, and not just ignore the expectations he doesn't like. The ignoring is what causes the walkaway, not the actual expectations.


Exactly. Most WAW could have been avoided had there been acknowledgement of the problem, compromise made, feeling like they care to meet our needs without us having to nag it out of them. 

And I agree that there are some of each gender who do have unrealistic expectations but there is also a lot of people thinking their spouse is unrealistic when they aren't.

I've seen a lot of it when people will advise a man who date his wife, woo her, spend 15 hours a week alone together and some men are like "ppppt, that's what dating was for. Once you're married you can't expect to be dated and wooed like that anymore. It's real life, not a fairy tale!" 
But their own needs -things like sex, words of affirmation, domestic support, are normal expectations.

People should view all EN as the same importance, none are more or less "fairy tale"


----------



## Adelais

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> A WAW is a lot more vulnerable for an affair IMO.
> 
> Going a long time without your emotional needs being met, someone comes a long and gives you a little taste of them and they fall right into affair land fog.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that a WAW is just a woman having or looking for an affair or thinking the grass is greener.


I may be inventing my own definition for the WAW, but I believe she leaves for no one except for herself. In fact, she will probably take some time and enjoy her independence while rediscovering who she is, and how to find her own happiness.

If she leaves for someone, she no longer falls into the category of WAW. She falls under the category of WW.


----------



## Adelais

SurpriseMyself said:


> Ever read anything about WHY women cheat? And by the way, this thread is about how to prevent a walkaway wife. If it helps you figure out why she cheated, then great. Some women cheat because they feel neglected and lonely. Some men do the same. But it seems lots of men cling to excuses as to why they can't be good husbands when the truth is that what a good husband is has changed.


I don't think it matters WHY anyone cheats, whether male or female. If someone is unhappy in their marriage, they need to end the marriage before they find a new person to love.


----------



## turnera

technovelist said:


> Why not just leave and declare bankruptcy? Is it student loan debt?


No, it's credit card debt, and my H refuses to give up all his credit cards. When we moved out of our last house 12 years ago, I couldn't get him to fix the old house up so we could sell it. It took him four years to get it done - so four years of two mortgages, insurance, utilities, and taxes. All of which he put on credit cards without telling me, while his income was dropping, again without telling me. And then another ten years of similarly ridiculous choices like picking a mortgage that paid no principal for the first 10 years, until I finally said enough and took over the finances.

And I haven't been emotionally strong enough to just leave. Complicated story, FOO stuff, not wanting DD25 involved, and IC has been helping with that. I'll get there.


----------



## just got it 55

turnera said:


> See, women aren't looking for perfection. Most of us love to take care of our man, and will spoil him silly. If we just get something in return.
> 
> Gotta point out, though...you would go to the extra EFFORT of turning hers inside out - when SHE is doing YOUR laundry - but you wouldn't go to the effort of turning YOURS rightside out in the first place out of consideration?


Yeah I am a slow learner

55

ETA: T when I do fail at something all I ask of her is to tell me to make it right And I do right away without fuss For example from time to time I spilled coffee from my travel mug on the stairs on my way out the door in the dark at 5:00 am if i miss it she asks me to wipe it up and I do right then and there I explained a long time ago Hey sweetie I don't do this sh!t on purpose If I don't see it just ask and I will take care of it.

This was actually my first sign that she was at her wits end I our marriage She never lost her temper about small potatoes But on one occasion she lost it That did get my attention, I don't think it was really about the spilled coffee,it was about how unhappy and uncaring she felt I had been.But you know what she never told me that. But thankfully I figured it out.

55


----------



## tech-novelist

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't trust statistics. They're usually compiled by people with an agenda and very easy to manipulate. Technovelist knows I'm right.


80% of statistics are made up on the spot. >


----------



## SurpriseMyself

About "unrealistic expectations," I don't think it's unrealistic to expect deeper conversations with your spouse than you would have with a coworker. Or to have him actually look at you when you are discussing something important. Or smile at you in the morning or after you get home from work. Or respond when you ask him a question. Or say he wasn't going to do X that I had asked because he disagreed with me (instead of acting like he would when he had no intention of doing so). Or to have conversations about our future.

If any of those are unrealistic, please let me know why you think so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I may be inventing my own definition for the WAW, but I believe she leaves for no one except for herself. In fact, she will probably take some time and enjoy her independence while rediscovering who she is, and how to find her own happiness.
> 
> If she leaves for someone, she no longer falls into the category of WAW. She falls under the category of WW.


That's exactly what it is. A wife who after years of not having her needs met decides to leave the marriage. A Wayward Wife is entirely different, like comparing apples to Q-tips. Some might argue that wives whose needs aren't being met engage in an affair but that's indicative of poor values and boundaries, not a Walkaway Wife. WW's actually value themselves and is the reason they decide to no longer put up with being devalued.


----------



## tech-novelist

turnera said:


> No, it's credit card debt, and my H refuses to give up all his credit cards. When we moved out of our last house 12 years ago, I couldn't get him to fix the old house up so we could sell it. It took him four years to get it done - so four years of two mortgages, insurance, utilities, and taxes. All of which he put on credit cards without telling me, while his income was dropping, again without telling me. And then another ten years of similarly ridiculous choices like picking a mortgage that paid no principal for the first 10 years, until I finally said enough and took over the finances.
> 
> And I haven't been emotionally strong enough to just leave. Complicated story, FOO stuff, not wanting DD25 involved, and IC has been helping with that. I'll get there.


Ok, so then it appears that it's really the emotional issues, not the debt, that is keeping you there.

Thanks for the clarification.


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## Adelais

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I've seen a lot of it when people will advise a man who date his wife, woo her, spend 15 hours a week alone together and some men are like "ppppt, that's what dating was for. Once you're married you can't expect to be dated and wooed like that anymore. It's real life, not a fairy tale!"
> But their own needs -things like sex, words of affirmation, domestic support, are normal expectations.


Something similar happened in my marriage. Before marrying, my husband was more than willing to listen to me, and bent over backwards to do whatever I wanted. I wasn't looking for a twin or a slave, but his feigned compatibility made me think we were two peas in a pod. I adapted to him pre marriage too, and continued to after marriage. The areas where I adapted were acceptable to me.

After marriage, he was put off whenever my needs were different than his. It became his way or the highway.

After 24 years I got tired of it, and told him what WAW meant and that I was going to be one in 6-7 years.

He is now reevaluating his attitudes, and changing. I am less desperate to leave than I used to be, and if he keeps changing I probably won't leave, will will remain and be happily married for the first time in our relationship after the initial honeymoon phase wore off.


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## turnera

MY GP sent me to a stress therapist once after I started having physical problems from my unhappiness. The therapist told me that 75% of her clients are women and almost always because they are giving SO much, to everyone, that they always put themselves last, and thus develop stress problems. That most women are raised to step up and get things done, make sure everyone has what they want or need, and that society still looks down on women who are strong or vocal ("a strong man is assertive; a strong woman is a b*tch") and are usually the ones who back down when a spouse pushes the issue. So women sit and stew; still do the stuff that needs done, but stew nonetheless. Until their body just can't do it any more.


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## lifeistooshort

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I think it's a lot more common than people think. IMO So many men don't notice their wife is in the WAW stage until sex stops. Then they want to fix sex trying to talk her into or pressuring her to have sex with a man she has no connection with and has put a wall up between. Even when her needs are addressed at this point it's like a vending machine. Oh, you needed date nights? Well here's one, now can I have my sex? Oh, you needed more help around the house when the kids were young? I spent a few weeks doing chores, where's my reward?
> 
> That's just not how it works but at that point when he "tries everything" the thing that is missing is consistency, time. A few things are tried, don't work (to get sex) so they stop, or it's done for the wrong reasons and the journey to get there isn't addressed.
> 
> I know with my H he likes to solve problems this way. I'll ask, I'll be upset, I'll withdrawal, I'll come back around between them a few times and then he'll finally do the thing I had needed but by that point it's not going to do much because now we have to address the feelings of neglect, like I'm not being listened to. Now he's just doing X because I've pretty much forced him to.
> 
> This is where "I want you to WANT to" comes in. We don't want a man who just takes orders and does what he's told. We _do _want a man who listens to us and wants to meet our needs by doing the things we've asked for.
> 
> 
> I really believe in the concept of love banks. You put things in to meet emotional needs, stuff comes out when stuff that upsets them happens.
> 
> A WAW just has an negative balance love bank. To come back around there would need to be time to fill it up again with EN and stopping negative situations. When you get back into a positive balance she may take down her walls a little and let him in but there will be a lot of putting in before you see any improvements AND often she comes back around through conflict so it could end up a situation where it gets worse before it gets better.



Many of the same guys will p!ss and moan that they want you to want sex, as opposed to putting out to shut them up, so clearly they have no issue understanding reciprocity.

I have to laugh a little at the unreasonable expectations argument. .... how many guys do we see here moaning that they don't get oral/anal/enthusiastic sex multiple times per week? Yeah, your grandpa didn't get any of that, so it would seem that expectations of marriage have changed for all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TNC

New to this forum but jumping in because I think I am a WAW. 

I was extremely happy in my marriage until we had children. Before them, having different hobbies and interests didn't seem like a big deal. He did his thing, I did mine, and then often we enjoyed things together. 

Then we had children. My life changed, his did not. I was doing pretty much everything. And that actually was fine. The issue I had was that he didn't participate. He wasn't interested in doing things as a family. Even fun things like going to our friends house (with the kids) and hanging out. He would opt to stay home. I wish I had saved all the emails I would get on a Monday morning, him apologizing for not hanging out with me and the kids. But he still wouldn't go the next time. 

I didn't want to be a nag. I would ask him to go, and the choice was his. Like someone else mentioned, I wanted him to WANT to be involved.

As far as the comment about women expecting men to change after marriage, I think the issue with that, is that I didn't want my husband to change as a person, I did however assume/expect that when we had children, he would want to hang out with them. 

I have never said to him "I wish you were more like so and so..." because that isn't my style..but I have definitely been places and seen fathers with their children and wished that my husband was more like that. 

Now that I have expressed to him that I am unhappy, he wants to change. At this point, it is quite a slap in the face. When I was happy and hopeful that we could work, you weren't interested in making the effort, but now that I finally have had enough it's suddenly a priority? 

It makes me feel like he doesn't care about ME..but he cares about himself, and he doesn't want to have to deal with all that comes with being single, and a single parent. 

He makes comments about not wanting someone else, not wanting to have to find someone else...which again, is extremely irritating, because my only concern is the happiness and feeling of security we can provide our children. I don't care about dating, or the idea of dating. It isn't even on my radar. It's annoying to me that it's on his.

ETA - My husband too didn't see any of this as a problem until I was no longer interested in being intimate with him. Now if we do have sex, it's like he thinks everything is fine. So I have stopped... I feel like all of his effort now is so that he can be physical with me. Nothing he does feels even remotely genuine.


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## FalconKing

@SurpriseMyself

I feel really bad for your husband. Not that you are wrong. I have heard a bit about your story and we have talked. I think you mentioned before that he was a bit older than you when you guys married. I got the impression that he married you thinking you would be easy to control. You seem really strong and responsible and I think he became overwhelmed by that and felt threatened. As you became stronger and matured throughout the marriage I think he just didn't know how to handle it. I can imagine the mixed messages you were getting and none of those messages conveyed that he was dependable. He sounded so lost and incompetent. I feel bad for him because he didn't know how handle you being your own person and i'm sure he felt your disappointment in him. He was just failing and failing... I honestly think you will be ok. I never got the impression you were afraid leave. You just wanted to keep the family together. 

You leaving may finally make him the man you thought he could be. It seemed to me that he was stuck in this vicious cycle of deferring to you and then resenting you for that.


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## Thundarr

Sometimes there's no preventing a WAW but the warning signs are usually there and some marriages could be saved with a little effort. Other marriages are filled with unreasonable expectations and blame shifting. Those are doomed from the start. And other marriages are just two incompatible people. But regarding marriages that have a chance, we tend to think everything is fine or fixed if time passes and arguing settles down but that couldn't be further from the truth. It just as likely means the spouse is becoming indifferent. So it generally takes a long time for someone to give up and then wait for an exit strategy. There's maybe some good days during this time when things seem okay but no one is talking about the elephant in the room or acknowledging there's an elephant at all. A common scenario for this is when mom stays with dad until the kids are grown only mom starts seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and runs a little before they're grown.


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## just got it 55

turnera said:


> MY GP sent me to a stress therapist once after I started having physical problems from my unhappiness. The therapist told me that 75% of her clients are women and almost always because they are giving SO much, to everyone, that they always put themselves last, and thus develop stress problems. That most women are raised to step up and get things done, make sure everyone has what they want or need, and that society still looks down on women who are strong or vocal ("a strong man is assertive; a strong woman is a b*tch") and are usually the ones who back down when a spouse pushes the issue. So women sit and stew; still do the stuff that needs done, but stew nonetheless. Until their body just can't do it any more.


 T I have two daughters and two DIL Let me tell you this

With this generation of young women this cycle is on it's way out

They are all smart ,driven ,honest and hard working. And they take no sh!t

Very proud of this crop of women.

55


----------



## Adelais

TNC said:


> Now that I have expressed to him that I am unhappy, he wants to change. At this point, it is quite a slap in the face. When I was happy and hopeful that we could work, you weren't interested in making the effort, but now that I finally have had enough it's suddenly a priority?
> 
> It makes me feel like he doesn't care about ME..but he cares about himself, and he doesn't want to have to deal with all that comes with being single, and a single parent.
> 
> He makes comments about not wanting someone else, not wanting to have to find someone else...which again, is extremely irritating, because my only concern is the happiness and feeling of security we can provide our children. I don't care about dating, or the idea of dating. It isn't even on my radar. It's annoying to me that it's on his.
> 
> ETA - My husband too didn't see any of this as a problem until I was no longer interested in being intimate with him. Now if we do have sex, it's like he thinks everything is fine. So I have stopped... I feel like all of his effort now is so that he can be physical with me. Nothing he does feels even remotely genuine.


If he has realized he really loves you and he doesn't want to lose you, he will get desperate enough to keep you that he will seek knowledge on how to change and he will begin to change.

Can you send him to this website and thread?

I can understand that his comments sound like "me...me....me....me...and me again!"


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## TNC

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> If he has realized he really loves you and he doesn't want to lose you, he will get desperate enough to keep you that he will seek knowledge on how to change and he will begin to change.
> 
> Can you send him to this website and thread?
> 
> I can understand that his comments sound like "me...me....me....me...and me again!"


He is already desperate to keep me. The problem is I checked out so long ago that I am resentful that he even tries :/


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## TNC

Oh I also wanted to comment on the discussion about women filing for divorce. Obviously I am only in one marriage, but when I have discussed separating with my husband he has said (on more than one occasion) "You will need to file for divorce if that's what you want, I will never be the one to file..." 

I can't figure out if he's as lazy at that as he is life, or if it's his way of making sure I'm the bad guy.


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## turnera

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> If he has realized he really loves you and he doesn't want to lose you, he will get desperate enough to keep you that he will seek knowledge on how to change and he will begin to change.
> 
> Can you send him to this website and thread?
> 
> I can understand that his comments sound like "me...me....me....me...and me again!"


But that's the inevitable problem, isn't it? Sure, he may finally wake up and change. But SHE has been sucking it up for years and years, her Love Bucket getting filled with Love Busters until it's so riddled with holes that he could do 1,000 loving things to meet her needs and it would still all just rush out those holes, leaving her empty. Too late.

It just amazes me that I've been hearing this same story for more than 30 years, and I'm sure it was going on long before I was around...why IS it that men just can't see/hear it to begin with? Is it biological? Cultural? Is it just because men are raised by women and thus take women for granted? I wish I had an answer for it.


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## TNC

turnera said:


> But that's the inevitable problem, isn't it? Sure, he may finally wake up and change. But SHE has been sucking it up for years and years, her Love Bucket getting filled with Love Busters until it's so riddled with holes that he could do 1,000 loving things to meet her needs and it would still all just rush out those holes, leaving her empty. Too late.
> 
> It just amazes me that I've been hearing this same story for more than 30 years, and I'm sure it was going on long before I was around...why IS it that men just can't see/hear it to begin with? Is it biological? Cultural? Is it just because men are raised by women and thus take women for granted? I wish I had an answer for it.


I wonder this myself. And I certainly don't think I'm the greatest wife to ever walk the earth, but I really didn't expect very much. 

I put my husband (when we first met) on a pedestal..I wanted to do everything for him, I wanted to make his life so great. His happiness was my focus! And he completely took it for granted. 

I also have found that *I* have changed in my wants and needs and he hasn't. So in his defense, at age 35, I am NOT the girl he met when I was just 21. But I don't think that's a bad thing and I'm not going to apologize to him or take blame for maturing. It's life. For women...apparently not some men


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## Adelais

TNC said:


> Oh I also wanted to comment on the discussion about women filing for divorce. Obviously I am only in one marriage, but when I have discussed separating with my husband he has said (on more than one occasion) "You will need to file for divorce if that's what you want, I will never be the one to file..."
> 
> I can't figure out if he's as lazy at that as he is life, or if it's his way of making sure I'm the bad guy.


Not sure why they respond that way. My H said the same thing. I'm just guessing here, but if the husband has loved his wife (in his own way, not in the way she needed to be loved), and he has just been emotionally lazy during the marriage, perhaps it is his way of biding time, and hoping his WAW will come around and not D?

In my case, I thought my H refused to initiate D was because he really didn't want to D, and it wasn't because he loved me. I believe it was because he didn't want the problems that come with D: reputation hurt (now he is one of "those" guys who couldn't keep a marriage going), feeling like a failure, financial hardship, hurt the children.

Now that he is realizing his part in my emotional detachment, I believe he doesn't want to D because he wants actually wants to fix his side and have a good marriage. Perhaps he even loves me and wants to be the husband he wasn't for all those years and to make me feel cherished and live out the rest of our marriage in "Oneness."


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

turnera said:


> It just amazes me that I've been hearing this same story for more than 30 years, and I'm sure it was going on long before I was around...why IS it that men just can't see/hear it to begin with? Is it biological? Cultural? Is it just because men are raised by women and thus take women for granted? I wish I had an answer for it.


I think men get a lot of mixed messages. Lots of guys even here are told "she must be sh*t testing you, don't do what she's asking" Or "my wife gets upset every time I do dishes because she says I put the dishes in the dishwasher wrong" and is told she's just a b*tch and a nag and to teach her a lesson.

In so many of these cases they started with a few "hey hun, next time you do them could you remember to put the bowls in upside down so they don't gather water? Thanks " and then turned into the "darn it Bob, why do you do it wrong??! You never listen to me!!!" 
Now they hear you but now you're a b*tch and nagging and it's probably a sh*t test that you should stand up to. 

*there are cases where you just have to say fine, if you want this done your way, YOU do it, I'll take on the laundry instead* But every situation is different and whether or not a person is being unreasonable with what they are asking for is very subjective. Sometimes you should just do what she's asked. 

I think another part of it is that some don't take our feelings very seriously. 
She's nagging, she's emotional and silly, she's unrealistic and irrational, she's just having a bad day, she must be on her period. They roll their eyes, silly women and their silly emotions and go about their day. We shut up, everything must be all better.


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## 3Xnocharm

TNC said:


> Oh I also wanted to comment on the discussion about women filing for divorce. Obviously I am only in one marriage, but when I have discussed separating with my husband he has said (on more than one occasion) "You will need to file for divorce if that's what you want, I will never be the one to file..."
> 
> I can't figure out if he's as lazy at that as he is life, or if it's his way of making sure I'm the bad guy.


My first husband told me "I always swore I would never get divorced!" Well, guess what...divorce is what happens when you think you don't have to put any effort towards anyone but yourself.


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## Blondilocks

Americans (by and large) are reactive. They're not going to volunteer to do something if they can just wait a while and let the storm pass.

I think if women would make their profound displeasure known early on and often, perhaps men wouldn't think that a quick screw would hold her for awhile. Wives have grown up hearing about how awful it is for a woman to nag so they try not to. Every bride should include in her trousseau a b!tchin' pair of b!tch boots and wear them often if need be.


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## OpenWindows

TNC said:


> I put my husband (when we first met) on a pedestal..I wanted to do everything for him, I wanted to make his life so great. His happiness was my focus! And he completely took it for granted.
> 
> I also have found that *I* have changed in my wants and needs and he hasn't. So in his defense, at age 35, I am NOT the girl he met when I was just 21. But I don't think that's a bad thing and I'm not going to apologize to him or take blame for maturing. It's life. For women...apparently not some men


This is a good description of my situation as well. Our marriage was originally built around me taking care of him. As I got older and wiser, I wanted more equality. He fought it, because that was not what he signed up for. But I was no longer getting what I needed, and he continued to stand his ground until I just couldn't take it anymore. 

We don't start a relationship knowing what kind of people we may become over time. But if we don't adapt with our partner, the marriage will break.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

When I was a WAW my H thought things were reasonably fine. He would come home from work, I'd cook dinner, I did the chores, I didn't bother to even complain that much other than a few outbursts when it just got too much. He had a few little complaints but for the most part was content. I got him to fill out some emotional needs questionnaires during that time. His were always being met fine, some good. Mine were all bad. 
He didn't have to leave because he wasn't as unhappy as I was. He was "fine". 

I went from WAW to seething rage at some point. That's when he became unhappy but until then I could ask him how he thought we were doing and he'd say we're good. Even if I had JUST had a conversation with him about how we were not good.


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## turnera

OpenWindows said:


> This is a good description of my situation as well. Our marriage was originally built around me taking care of him. As I got older and wiser, I wanted more equality. He fought it, because that was not what he signed up for. But I was no longer getting what I needed, and he continued to stand his ground until I just couldn't take it anymore.


I was the same. I was happy to do all the stuff I was raised to think was my job - basically all the housework, shopping, dressing him, feeding him, and helping him with every single project he decided he wanted to work on, even if it meant MY work didn't get done and I'd have to stay up til 2am to get MY stuff done after we were done working on his stuff.

The tipping point for me was having a baby, and then realizing that not only was he not going to help with any of the work, but that I now REALLY didn't get a single moment for myself. The only time I got anything for me was birthdays, the one day a year he'd 'help' me with something like laundry or mopping. For a good ten years, every year I'd ask for one thing - for him to take DD and go away for a day so I could just be alone and free to do what I wanted for a change. ONE year out of all those times I asked for it, he took her to a nearby town for 4 or 5 hours, not a whole day. But it was heaven to not have to be 'on' for the two of them even for that short while.

It's taken me 15 more years to realize he's never going to just give it to me. I have to take it and try to stop feeling guilty for doing so.

So I hope that this generation really is changing, and these young women won't put up with being expected to be June Cleaver AND Elle Woods.


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## lifeistooshort

TNC said:


> Oh I also wanted to comment on the discussion about women filing for divorce. Obviously I am only in one marriage, but when I have discussed separating with my husband he has said (on more than one occasion) "You will need to file for divorce if that's what you want, I will never be the one to file..."
> 
> I can't figure out if he's as lazy at that as he is life, or if it's his way of making sure I'm the bad guy.


I'd bet this happens a lot. Many guys like to throw around that women are usually the ones to file, as if it suggests that the poor hb's were decent hb's. It doesn't mean they weren't nasty/cheaters/fill in the blanks, it only means they didn't file for divorce. Nothing more. 

Even when there's abuse or cheating you'll have guys screaming that since they didn't want a divorce it's still not their fault. I'm sure there are women who do that too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

lifeistooshort said:


> I'd bet this happens a lot. Many guys like to throw around that women are usually the ones to file, as if it suggests that the poor hb's were decent hb's. It doesn't mean they weren't nasty/cheaters/fill in the blanks, it only means they didn't file for divorce. Nothing more.
> 
> Even when there's abuse or cheating you'll have guys screaming that since they didn't want a divorce it's still not their fault. I'm sure there are women who do that too.


I filed for divorce too, three times. 

The first after 4 years because he had brain surgery and deteriorated into a drugged out, violent man who tired to kill me. He was never going to file as he wanted to stay married and torture me. So I'm the bad one for filing?

The second time because he was not about to file even though he was out the door and cheating. And I'm the bad one for filing?

The last time, he would have never filed. He was ok playing video games and surfing the web (and porn) all day from the time woke up to the time he went to bed. (not exaggerating) He was content with me being the sole support and raising HIS children while he played. So again I'm the bad on for filing?


.


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## Lukedog

I'm new here...I have been a member of TAM for about a month or so. I have been reading some of the posts on the different sights and the comments and advise along with them. But I have to say...this particular post really describes my situation to a T. I checked out of my marriage a long time ago because of these exact things. We have issued with our finances, communication, sex, pretty much everything. When I tried to bring the issues to light I was originally told by him that he didn't have a problem with anything, I was the one with the problem and I'm the one that needed counseling. He wouldn't listed to me when I told him I was unhappy, when I told him there are issues that we need to discuss. After a while we did try counseling but I heard the same round-about talk and excuses there that I heard at home whenever we tried to discuss anything. We eventually quit because we weren't doing the "exercises" that we were supposed to be doing. You see, my husband is a functioning alcoholic (although he will not acknowledge that he has a drinking problem), and I learned in Alanon that what I was doing was detachment. The many many "issues" in our marriage have been going on for many years, and I have become so detached that I feel that there is no return for me. I have lost faith, respect, and trust in my H, and I will be the WAW very soon.

Listening and communication is a two way street in a marriage. It's not always 50/50...but a husband a wife should always communicate and be working towards the same goals. When that is lost, there is nothing left.


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## turnera

Lukedog, if it helps, look at it this way: you STAYING in this toxic marriage is actually HARMING your husband. Because you're enabling him. If you were to leave, THEN he'd have a reason to look at his own stuff. So if you won't leave for yourself, leave for him.

(and then go to therapy by yourself so you can figure out why you stayed so long)


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## TRy

technovelist said:


> 80% of statistics are made up on the spot. >


 "Most Internet quotes are made up on the spot." - Abraham Lincoln


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## RoseAglow

I am also a big believer in the "love bank" theory. I think there is a reason that there are more walk-away wives than there are walk-away husbands. It's not because men are naturally selfish, or self-serving, although of course some are (just like some wives are as well, those are human traits). I think it's because they generally have different emotional needs and they think, like most humans (wives included) that their spouse is happy, if they themselves are happy. 

It tends to be easier to fill the average man's "love bank". A few words of admiration, good and frequent sex, a reasonably attractive partner, being willing to do fun things together/recreational companionship; these tend to meet men's top emotional needs. If a wife can meet three of these regularly, the average husband feels loved and is happy. Most women will try to look good just for themselves, and most women will agree to go to movies, watch TV, do something just so they aren't bored. Only sex requires a sustained effort.

Women's top emotional needs, on average, are more complicated and take much more effort. Most women need intimate conversation to feel emotionally connected. Women need affection (without sex) and family commitment. They want openness and honesty. 
Women need a lot of interaction and a sustained effort for their needs to be met. Your average man might be affectionate on his own, maybe. But for the most part, men have to make a concerted effort to meet their wives emotional needs. Men are not likely to meet their wife's top emotional needs as a by-product of their own interests, in the way that women might meet their husband's. 

So in many marriages, the men are happily going along, their needs are being met, and they are clueless to both the extent of their wife's unhappiness and also how to address/remove it. The men are happy and don't see any problems. In fact, there are some men who believe that women just fuss too much and can never be happy. It's already been suggested on this thread. 

I think it's more a lack of knowledge, which is one reason why I constantly refer people over to MB's Basic Concepts. Things can dramatically turn around in a marriage once the spouses know and agree to meet each other's emotional needs.

The other part of creating and sustaining love is learning to identify and remove the behaviors that kill love. One of the biggest is "disrespectful judgments." It is extremely disrespectful for one spouse to regard the others' needs, thoughts, wishes, etc, as "stupid", "unworthy", " not important", "PMS stuff", etc. The biggest love buster is angry outbursts. Many men (and women) have no idea just how destructful their angry outbursts are to their loved ones. I'd guess that these are the two biggest drivers behind the walk-away wife phenomenon. 

The way to prevent walk-away wives in my opinion is to educate all of us on how to choose well and how to sustain love in relationships. Of course, to do that, we have to agree on what works. I would encourage anyone to start with the book His Needs, Her Needs, and go from there.

SurpriseMe, I'm sorry that your husband didn't respond to your efforts. I wish you happiness as you move forward.


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## TRy

EleGirl said:


> I filed for divorce too, three times.
> 
> The first after 4 years because he had brain surgery and deteriorated into a drugged out, violent man who tired to kill me. He was never going to file as he wanted to stay married and torture me. So I'm the bad one for filing?
> 
> The second time because he was not about to file even though he was out the door and cheating. And I'm the bad one for filing?
> 
> The last time, he would have never filed. He was ok playing video games and surfing the web (and porn) all day from the time woke up to the time he went to bed. (not exaggerating) He was content with me being the sole support and raising HIS children while he played. So again I'm the bad on for filing?


 With all due respect, if it is the same husband that you filed for divorce from 3 times, then you are slow learner. If it is 3 different husbands that you filed for divorce from 3 times, then you are slow learner.


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## RoseAglow

Lukedog said:


> I'm new here...I have been a member of TAM for about a month or so. I have been reading some of the posts on the different sights and the comments and advise along with them. But I have to say...this particular post really describes my situation to a T. I checked out of my marriage a long time ago because of these exact things. We have issued with our finances, communication, sex, pretty much everything. When I tried to bring the issues to light I was originally told by him that he didn't have a problem with anything, I was the one with the problem and I'm the one that needed counseling. He wouldn't listed to me when I told him I was unhappy, when I told him there are issues that we need to discuss. After a while we did try counseling but I heard the same round-about talk and excuses there that I heard at home whenever we tried to discuss anything. We eventually quit because we weren't doing the "exercises" that we were supposed to be doing. You see, my husband is a functioning alcoholic (although he will not acknowledge that he has a drinking problem), and I learned in Alanon that what I was doing was detachment. The many many "issues" in our marriage have been going on for many years, and I have become so detached that I feel that there is no return for me. I have lost faith, respect, and trust in my H, and I will be the WAW very soon.
> 
> Listening and communication is a two way street in a marriage. It's not always 50/50...but a husband a wife should always communicate and be working towards the same goals. When that is lost, there is nothing left.


One of the interesting things I read this year was in the book linked in my signature. It was a discussion on the results of a very long-term study on a group of students from Harvard. This particular group of men were soldiers in WW2 and have been followed for 75 years and counting.

Alcohol use was by far the biggest predictor of divorce in this cohort, even more than cheating. This might be due to generational issues, but I still thought it was interesting. My marriage vastly improved when my husband and I both stopped drinking. 

There is little choice beyond leaving if your spouse is an active alcoholic.


----------



## EleGirl

knobcreek said:


> Once a wife has it in her head that she deserves more than her husband there's nothing he can do, it's so simple for her to move onto that tingly new love, no way a husband of 15 - 20 years can compete with that new excitement.




This thread is not about women who have affairs. So not sure why you posted that except to try to dismiss real issues.


----------



## Blondilocks

TRy said:


> With all due respect, if it is the same husband that you filed for divorce from 3 times, then you are slow learner. If it is 3 different husbands that you filed for divorce from 3 times, then you are slow learner.



Is that a Confucianism?


----------



## EleGirl

TRy said:


> With all due respect, if it is the same husband that you filed for divorce from 3 times, then you are slow learner. If it is 3 different husbands that you filed for divorce from 3 times, then you are slow learner.


Of course you meant no respect with that comment.

The first husband would have probably been ok had he not suffered brain damage.


The other two, sometimes people hide who they really are very well. There was no indication in either of the 2nd and 3rd that they would be like they were after marriage. 

I have learned now thought that I will never trust any man enough to get that close again because the bad hide very well among the rest.

And one thing a person can be sure of on TAM if they open up enough to share is that they will be attacked for it. There will always be someone who takes the opportunity.


----------



## lifeistooshort

​


EleGirl said:


> I filed for divorce too, three times.
> 
> The first after 4 years because he had brain surgery and deteriorated into a drugged out, violent man who tired to kill me. He was never going to file as he wanted to stay married and torture me. So I'm the bad one for filing?
> 
> The second time because he was not about to file even though he was out the door and cheating. And I'm the bad one for filing?
> 
> The last time, he would have never filed. He was ok playing video games and surfing the web (and porn) all day from the time woke up to the time he went to bed. (not exaggerating) He was content with me being the sole support and raising HIS children while he played. So again I'm the bad on for filing?
> 
> 
> .


Of course you're the bad one. Haven't you heard of for better or worse? 

How dare you take away his gravy train 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SurpriseMyself

TNC said:


> Oh I also wanted to comment on the discussion about women filing for divorce. Obviously I am only in one marriage, but when I have discussed separating with my husband he has said (on more than one occasion) "You will need to file for divorce if that's what you want, I will never be the one to file..."
> 
> I can't figure out if he's as lazy at that as he is life, or if it's his way of making sure I'm the bad guy.


Mine has said exactly the same. He also said he's not moving out, so I had to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OpenWindows

There's some interesting common themes in these WAW stories...

- partners disagree on division of labor
- division of labor isn't rebalanced after children
- husband assumes wife is happy, because he is
- wife feels responsible for caring for husband
- breakdown in communication

Maybe we can consider these to be some of the early symptoms of WAW syndrome.


----------



## Blondilocks

SurpriseMyself said:


> Mine has said exactly the same. He also said he's not moving out, so I had to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Great. Now you can decorate without having to fit in a big, mamoo lazy-boy recliner. You can have pink in the bedroom if you want. Lace curtains and no more buying air freshener by the case.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

lifeistooshort said:


> ​
> Of course you're the bad one. Haven't you heard of for better or worse?
> 
> How dare you take away his gravy train
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL there will still be some guys who insist she must have been just using him for his money.

But.. she's the main breadwinn..
USING HIM FOR HIS MONEY!
But.. he didn't even make mon..
USING HIS MONEY!!

She's a woman after all, that's the only reason we marry. Then when we have taken enough of it we leave our beta provider for the hot, alpha guy. 

Couldn't possibly be that our needs weren't being met and we're not listened to or cared about.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Blondilocks said:


> Great. Now you can decorate without having to fit in a big, mamoo lazy-boy recliner. You can have pink in the bedroom if you want. Lace curtains and no more buying air freshener by the case.


All of the above are true. The tough part are the kids. I left the only home they've ever known, so I have to work hard to make my apartment feel like a home to them. That's a long road by itself.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blondilocks

Ask the kids for their input and it will make it feel like it's theirs.

Hope your husband is feeling like the top dog because he kicked his own kids out of their home. Selfish jerk.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Blondilocks said:


> Ask the kids for their input and it will make it feel like it's theirs.
> 
> Hope your husband is feeling like the top dog because he kicked his own kids out of their home. Selfish jerk.


Well, we do 50/50 shared custody, so it's not exactly like that. I will say that my brother has a friend who is an attorney and was telling him I had moved out. When the attorney found out that my STBXH stayed in the house, he literally said "that is f-cked up!" Now, the only reason I agree with that is because he was the one who didn't want to try to work on himself and our marriage.

It seems a trend in my old neighborhood, by the way. I know of two other women on my street who moved out and their husband got the house. Don't know the circumstances, though. Just that the men are there and the women aren't.


----------



## just got it 55

EleGirl said:


> I filed for divorce too, three times.
> 
> The first after 4 years because he had brain surgery and deteriorated into a drugged out, violent man who tired to kill me. He was never going to file as he wanted to stay married and torture me. So I'm the bad one for filing?
> 
> The second time because he was not about to file even though he was out the door and cheating. And I'm the bad one for filing?
> 
> The last time, he would have never filed. He was ok playing video games and surfing the web (and porn) all day from the time woke up to the time he went to bed. (not exaggerating) He was content with me being the sole support and raising HIS children while he played. So again I'm the bad on for filing?
> 
> 
> .


Sorry EG I now have a better understanding to your reply to Albert's Quote

55


----------



## SurpriseMyself

I honestly think my STBXH just isn't capable of loving a woman the way she needs to be loved. For a long time I've felt that he views his role as a father as a series of tasks to be accomplished. Make kids breakfast - check. Get kids in bed - check. He did the same thing as a husband. Do the dishes - check. Mow the grass - check.

The thing is, you can't treat your marriage like items on a checklist. At one point when I was telling him what I wanted to be different, he did this outright and it really ticked me off. I was telling him that I'd like him to make eye contact with me when we were discussing something important. I didn't even get a chance to say why before he interrupted with, "Make eye contact. Got it. What else?" So I named the next thing, which was please respond when I speak to him. He responded with, "Respond. Got it. What else?" 

I felt so stupid even saying these things. It was like giving him a list of things to do when I was out of town, like water the plants or feed the fish. It truly showed that he didn't "get it" at all. And worse when he did those things for about 4 days and stopped. What was the point of even asking anymore ....


----------



## SurpriseMyself

EleGirl said:


> I filed for divorce too, three times.
> 
> The first after 4 years because he had brain surgery and deteriorated into a drugged out, violent man who tired to kill me. He was never going to file as he wanted to stay married and torture me. So I'm the bad one for filing?
> 
> The second time because he was not about to file even though he was out the door and cheating. And I'm the bad one for filing?
> 
> The last time, he would have never filed. He was ok playing video games and surfing the web (and porn) all day from the time woke up to the time he went to bed. (not exaggerating) He was content with me being the sole support and raising HIS children while he played. So again I'm the bad on for filing?
> 
> 
> .


Holy cow!!!:surprise:


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Oh dear, I must be getting even more jaded and cynical. The sulphurous vapours of disdain for us dumb guys is starting to make this thread pure Mumsnet material. I'll leave you to it.


----------



## JukeboxHero

turnera said:


> I was the same. I was happy to do all the stuff I was raised to think was my job - basically all the housework, shopping, dressing him, feeding him, and helping him with every single project he decided he wanted to work on, even if it meant MY work didn't get done and I'd have to stay up til 2am to get MY stuff done after we were done working on his stuff.
> 
> The tipping point for me was having a baby, and then realizing that not only was he not going to help with any of the work, but that I now REALLY didn't get a single moment for myself. The only time I got anything for me was birthdays, the one day a year he'd 'help' me with something like laundry or mopping. So I hope that this generation really is changing, and these young women won't put up with being expected to be June Cleaver AND Elle Woods.


Wow! @turnera. That's ridiculous!. Did you literally "dress" and "feed" him, are you talking like you would do these things for a child (like putting food in his mouth and clothes on him? Or are we talking cooking for him and laying his clothes out?

Either way, that's pretty ludicrous. What would happen if you didn't dress or feed him? Could he fend for himself? That makes me feel better about my situation. My wife does some great cooking, but I'm almost always there helping her or I occasionally cook meals myself.





EleGirl said:


> I filed for divorce too, three times.
> 
> The first after 4 years because he had brain surgery and deteriorated into a drugged out, violent man who tired to kill me. He was never going to file as he wanted to stay married and torture me. So I'm the bad one for filing?
> 
> The second time because he was not about to file even though he was out the door and cheating. And I'm the bad one for filing?
> 
> The last time, he would have never filed. He was ok playing video games and surfing the web (and porn) all day from the time woke up to the time he went to bed. (not exaggerating) He was content with me being the sole support and raising HIS children while he played. So again I'm the bad on for filing?
> 
> 
> .


 @EleGirl OUCh, and triple-ouch! I'm sorry to hear about your run of terrible husbands. Your history is outrageous!

I can't believe you had to endure all of that...it's a shame you feel like you can't trust or be close to another man, but after dealing with that, I really can't blame you!

I can't imagine someone as lazy as your last husband. I know I've had issues with games before, but I've always had a job and taken care of myself (and shared chores when married).


----------



## OpenWindows

I let my XH stay in our rental house, and I moved out. I felt like since I was the one who wanted out, I should be the one to leave. It helped that I didn't like the house much anyway.


----------



## RoseAglow

SurpriseMyself said:


> I honestly think my STBXH just isn't capable of loving a woman the way she needs to be loved. For a long time I've felt that he views his role as a father as a series of tasks to be accomplished. Make kids breakfast - check. Get kids in bed - check. He did the same thing as a husband. Do the dishes - check. Mow the grass - check.
> 
> The thing is, you can't treat your marriage like items on a checklist. At one point when I was telling him what I wanted to be different, he did this outright and it really ticked me off. I was telling him that I'd like him to make eye contact with me when we were discussing something important. I didn't even get a chance to say why before he interrupted with, "Make eye contact. Got it. What else?" So I named the next thing, which was please respond when I speak to him. He responded with, "Respond. Got it. What else?"
> 
> I felt so stupid even saying these things. It was like giving him a list of things to do when I was out of town, like water the plants or feed the fish. It truly showed that he didn't "get it" at all. And worse when he did those things for about 4 days and stopped. What was the point of even asking anymore ....


I would find that extremely frustrating as well. When we marry, we basically agree to provide extraordinary care for our spouse. We agree to care for them, above all others. Asking your spouse to look at you during important conversations, and to respond to you, these are requests for common courtesy and respect. Its nowhere near basic care, let alone extraordinary care.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Florida_rosbif said:


> Oh dear, I must be getting even more jaded and cynical. The sulphurous vapours of disdain for us dumb guys is starting to make this thread pure Mumsnet material. I'll leave you to it.


This isn't all men, this is about men who end up with WAWs. 

There are some guys who can look at this thread and think "oooh, that might be what is going on in my home" and start to fix it. 

There will be others who it won't apply to at all because their wife isn't a WAW and isn't in danger of being one.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Florida_rosbif said:


> Oh dear, I must be getting even more jaded and cynical. The sulphurous vapours of disdain for us dumb guys is starting to make this thread pure Mumsnet material. I'll leave you to it.


That's unfortunate. My ex was a d!ck but my current hb is a great guy that I'm crazy about after 10 years. Perhaps you should either stop reading the thread or read it and take whatever you can use. I'd recommend option 2.

Considering how many men on this site complain about waw's and how they never saw it coming you'd think getting some thoughts on it would be welcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

This is Lol-worthy.

So the wife comes home and complains about her co-workers and work and other such things. What is the husband do? he man-splains and man-fixes stuff because she just wants to vent.

the wife complains about all sorts of other random things or vegs out in-front of mind draining drama's or tedious video games (candy crush), arousing occasionally do gives orders to her manservant about household chores.

She complains about his friends, his family, her family, the kids, the house, the chores, the money...yet "just wants to be heard"/vent.

She tells him how he's failing and the marriage is so bad... and she expects him to put on his manservant pinny and fix it for her..... and she wonders why he won't save it for her. (when chances are the only reason he hasn't left himself is (a) getting another wife is probably even less pleasant, (b) will result in tearing down what little he has built in the world so far.

Hon, if you're threatening Divorce verbally and he's not listening... he ain't the problem.....


----------



## EleGirl

lifeistooshort said:


> ​
> Of course you're the bad one. Haven't you heard of for better or worse?
> 
> How dare you take away his gravy train


LOL... that's funny.. sadly.. but so true.

When my 2nd MIL found out that I was filing for divorce she verbally attacked me... she was yelling at me something like: How dare you... after you all he's done for you, after he supported you and on and on about how I had used him for his money. I had to stop her mid-rant and remind her that.. Hm, I supported him through most of the marriage and put him through medical school and residency. If anyone used anyone it was he who used me. That shut up the wicked witch of the west.

.


----------



## turnera

SurpriseMyself said:


> The thing is, you can't treat your marriage like items on a checklist. At one point when I was telling him what I wanted to be different, he did this outright and it really ticked me off. I was telling him that I'd like him to make eye contact with me when we were discussing something important. I didn't even get a chance to say why before he interrupted with, "Make eye contact. Got it. What else?" So I named the next thing, which was please respond when I speak to him. He responded with, "Respond. Got it. What else?"
> 
> I felt so stupid even saying these things. It was like giving him a list of things to do when I was out of town, like water the plants or feed the fish. It truly showed that he didn't "get it" at all. And worse when he did those things for about 4 days and stopped. What was the point of even asking anymore ....


He might have Aspergers.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

spotthedeaddog said:


> This is Lol-worthy.
> 
> So the wife comes home and complains about her co-workers and work and other such things. What is the husband do? he man-splains and man-fixes stuff because she just wants to vent.
> 
> What's wrong with just listening? "Wow hunny, that sounds really stressful. I hope you have a better day tomorrow"
> 
> the wife complains about all sorts of other random things or vegs out in-front of mind draining drama's or tedious video games (candy crush), arousing occasionally do gives orders to her manservant about household chores.
> 
> Well if she's not pulling her own weight then it's a different problem. If she is also working, cooking, doing chores, shopping, budgeting, planning, helping the kids, then it's not being a "manservent" to do half of it. The fact that she would have to ask in that situation means there is already a problem. Men should be doing 50% of the work at home without needing to be told to.
> As should women but unless the reason she stopped was because she was getting no help, a woman who doesn't do her own half isn't what a WAW is.
> 
> She complains about his friends, his family, her family, the kids, the house, the chores, the money...yet "just wants to be heard"/vent.
> 
> She doesn't _just _want to be heard all the time, some times she actually wants you to listen and DO what she is asking or at least come up with some kind of proper compromise together. It's not just venting, it's telling you what the problem is. Chores, house, kids- these are typically things she wants you to DO, not just "yes dear" her until she shuts up and not actually do it. Or think "fine! Geez, I'll do the dishes" once or twice and she has to keep asking you every.single.time. Constant complaining might just mean the problem has not been fixed
> 
> She tells him how he's failing and the marriage is so bad... and she expects him to put on his manservant pinny and fix it for her..... and she wonders why he won't save it for her. (when chances are the only reason he hasn't left himself is (a) getting another wife is probably even less pleasant, (b) will result in tearing down what little he has built in the world so far.
> 
> Hon, if you're threatening Divorce verbally and he's not listening... he ain't the problem.....
> 
> If he doesn't want a divorce and he's not listening, it is his problem.
> No one is saying to be a slave and do everything you are told to. No woman wants that anyway. We want you to LISTEN, want to meet our needs, do things without being told/asked to, compromise with us if you think it's unreasonable (vs. just brush it off) and communicate that you a) hear us and b) will work together to fix it.


----------



## just got it 55

In my case I honestly could not understand why my wife did not walk away

After my parents died I put 75K in my wife's hand as repayment for funds from her parents estate we used for a failed business.

I said it all yours it belongs rightfully to you do with it what you wish.

That was certainly her chance to walk But then I got to thinking How badly did I damage this angel of a woman Her self respect and self esteem ? That would not allow her to walk

That thought haunted me for a long time and still lingers

I never want to be that guy again.
So listen fellas .......If your a POS own it and fix it.

55


----------



## john117

Blondilocks said:


> Great. Now you can decorate without having to fit in a big, mamoo lazy-boy recliner. You can have pink in the bedroom if you want. Lace curtains and no more buying air freshener by the case.


Wayfair is your friend .


----------



## Florida_rosbif

lifeistooshort said:


> Perhaps you should either stop reading the thread or read it and take whatever you can use.


I recognise the value in what you suggest, and I agree that there is useful information in this thread. Maybe it is the preponderance of female posters all bitterly relating to the subject matter that makes it feel so "man hating".

However, after my current wife cheated and screwed up me and the marriage (still living together while trying to work out to handle this nicely for the kids), I have absolutely no intention of remarrying once this is sorted out. I'll happily limit myself to girlfriends in future, so should avoid having to deal with long term woman management issues!
:grin2:


----------



## EleGirl

spotthedeaddog said:


> This is Lol-worthy.
> 
> So the wife comes home and complains about her co-workers and work and other such things. What is the husband do? he man-splains and man-fixes stuff because she just wants to vent.
> 
> the wife complains about all sorts of other random things or vegs out in-front of mind draining drama's or tedious video games (candy crush), arousing occasionally do gives orders to her manservant about household chores.
> 
> She complains about his friends, his family, her family, the kids, the house, the chores, the money...yet "just wants to be heard"/vent.
> 
> She tells him how he's failing and the marriage is so bad... and she expects him to put on his manservant pinny and fix it for her..... and she wonders why he won't save it for her. (when chances are the only reason he hasn't left himself is (a) getting another wife is probably even less pleasant, (b) will result in tearing down what little he has built in the world so far.
> 
> Hon, if you're threatening Divorce verbally and he's not listening... he ain't the problem.....


If that's what your wife is like, you sure got a raw deal.

But that's not the type of situation this thread is about.


----------



## EleGirl

Florida_rosbif said:


> I recognise the value in what you suggest, and I agree that there is useful information in this thread. Maybe it is the preponderance of female posters all bitterly relating to the subject matter that makes it feel so "man hating".
> 
> However, after my current wife cheated and screwed up me and the marriage (still living together while trying to work out to handle this nicely for the kids), I have absolutely no intention of remarrying once this is sorted out. I'll happily limit myself to girlfriends in future, so should avoid having to deal with long term woman management issues!
> :grin2:


Funny.. there are many threads on TAM in which men talk about the problems in their marriage, about problems with their wives; about how much they were hurt by their wives. Are those bitter threads too?

.


----------



## john117

spotthedeaddog said:


> This is Lol-worthy.
> 
> So the wife comes home and complains about her co-workers and work and other such things. What is the husband do? he man-splains and man-fixes stuff because she just wants to vent.
> 
> the wife complains about all sorts of other random things or vegs out in-front of mind draining drama's or tedious video games (candy crush), arousing occasionally do gives orders to her manservant about household chores.
> 
> She complains about his friends, his family, her family, the kids, the house, the chores, the money...yet "just wants to be heard"/vent.
> 
> She tells him how he's failing and the marriage is so bad... and she expects him to put on his manservant pinny and fix it for her..... and she wonders why he won't save it for her. (when chances are the only reason he hasn't left himself is (a) getting another wife is probably even less pleasant, (b) will result in tearing down what little he has built in the world so far.
> 
> Hon, if you're threatening Divorce verbally and he's not listening... he ain't the problem.....


There's a lot of truth here unless the guy is a complete social psychopath. In which case the famous Dr. John Five Way analysis begins with " why did she marry him" and ends with "why did it take her so long"

I'm in the same spot as OP and despite far more serious issues between us I blame my self for putting up with it. I have my reasons but in the grand scheme of things...


----------



## EleGirl

just got it 55 said:


> In my case I honestly could not understand why my wife did not walk away
> 
> After my parents died I put 75K in my wife's hand as repayment for funds from her parents estate we used for a failed business.
> 
> I said it all yours it belongs rightfully to you do with it what you wish.
> 
> That was certainly her chance to walk But then I got to thinking How badly did I damage this angel of a woman Her self respect and self esteem ? That would not allow her to walk
> 
> That thought haunted me for a long time and still lingers
> 
> I never want to be that guy again.
> So listen fellas .......If your a POS own it and fix it.
> 
> 55


This goes both ways, there are women who are POS too. They need to own their part too. I have seen threads on here written by men who have every reason to be WAH. And many of these guys are on the verge, or in the middle of walking away for good reason.

I would hope that women who are like that will look at this thread, and others like it, and realize that they are harming their husbands.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Florida_rosbif said:


> I recognise the value in what you suggest, and I agree that there is useful information in this thread. Maybe it is the preponderance of female posters all bitterly relating to the subject matter that makes it feel so "man hating".
> 
> However, after my current wife cheated and screwed up me and the marriage (still living together while trying to work out to handle this nicely for the kids), I have absolutely no intention of remarrying once this is sorted out. I'll happily limit myself to girlfriends in future, so should avoid having to deal with long term woman management issues!
> :grin2:


This is a post about why wives walked away. It isn't about you, or the next guy. It's about why a particular wife left her marriage and her experience with it. Others have chimed in as to their reasons and experiences. Why you and some others are taking this personally or as an attack is beyond me. Is your wife the OP? If not, why are you and the others threadjacking this topic to make it all about yourselves?


----------



## TNC

spotthedeaddog said:


> This is Lol-worthy.
> 
> So the wife comes home and complains about her co-workers and work and other such things. What is the husband do? he man-splains and man-fixes stuff because she just wants to vent.
> 
> the wife complains about all sorts of other random things or vegs out in-front of mind draining drama's or tedious video games (candy crush), arousing occasionally do gives orders to her manservant about household chores.
> 
> She complains about his friends, his family, her family, the kids, the house, the chores, the money...yet "just wants to be heard"/vent.
> 
> She tells him how he's failing and the marriage is so bad... and she expects him to put on his manservant pinny and fix it for her..... and she wonders why he won't save it for her. (when chances are the only reason he hasn't left himself is (a) getting another wife is probably even less pleasant, (b) will result in tearing down what little he has built in the world so far.
> 
> Hon, if you're threatening Divorce verbally and he's not listening... he ain't the problem.....


This thread isn't at all about women who want a husband to listen while they complain.


----------



## lifeistooshort

EleGirl said:


> LOL... that's funny.. sadly.. but so true.
> 
> When my 2nd MIL found out that I was filing for divorce she verbally attacked me... she was yelling at me something like: How dare you... after you all he's done for you, after he supported you and on and on about how I had used him for his money. I had to stop her mid-rant and remind her that.. Hm, I supported him through most of the marriage and put him through medical school and residency. If anyone used anyone it was he who used me. That shut up the wicked witch of the west.
> 
> .


Haha, gotta love the assumption by so many that we're using the guys for money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

EleGirl said:


> Funny.. there are many threads on TAM in which men talk about the problems in their marriage, about problems with their wives; about how much they were hurt by their wives. Are those bitter threads too?
> 
> .


Only if they're not getting the porn sex they deserve.

Or if she did something for some other guy she won't do for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

EleGirl said:


> And one thing a person can be sure of on TAM if they open up enough to share is that they will be attacked for it. There will always be someone who takes the opportunity.


 You are right, and I was wrong. I apologize.


----------



## tech-novelist

TRy said:


> "Most Internet quotes are made up on the spot." - Abraham Lincoln


"The trouble with the internet is that you never know if the quotations are genuine." - Abraham Lincoln


----------



## MattMatt

turnera said:


> He might have Aspergers.


This kind of thing sounds vaguely familiar to me.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Therealbrighteyes said:


> This is a post about why wives walked away. It isn't about you, or the next guy. It's about why a particular wife left her marriage and her experience with it. Others have chimed in as to their reasons and experiences. Why you and some others are taking this personally or as an attack is beyond me. Is your wife the OP? If not, why are you and the others threadjacking this topic to make it all about yourselves?


Fair comment, thread jack was not my intention! I'll take my penance like a dumb man!

:grin2:

:moon::whip:


----------



## SurpriseMyself

spotthedeaddog said:


> This is Lol-worthy.
> 
> So the wife comes home and complains about her co-workers and work and other such things. What is the husband do? he man-splains and man-fixes stuff because she just wants to vent.
> 
> the wife complains about all sorts of other random things or vegs out in-front of mind draining drama's or tedious video games (candy crush), arousing occasionally do gives orders to her manservant about household chores.
> 
> She complains about his friends, his family, her family, the kids, the house, the chores, the money...yet "just wants to be heard"/vent.
> 
> She tells him how he's failing and the marriage is so bad... and she expects him to put on his manservant pinny and fix it for her..... and she wonders why he won't save it for her. (when chances are the only reason he hasn't left himself is (a) getting another wife is probably even less pleasant, (b) will result in tearing down what little he has built in the world so far.
> 
> Hon, if you're threatening Divorce verbally and he's not listening... he ain't the problem.....


Really? Well, I fixed that, didn't I? I'm not the problem anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

technovelist said:


> "The trouble with the internet is that you never know if the quotations are genuine." - Abraham Lincoln


Jefferson said that. Get your facts straight.


----------



## just got it 55

Thundarr said:


> Jefferson said that. Get your facts straight.


Everybody knows Al Gore invented these Interwebs

So all presidential quotes are credited to him

55


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## Thundarr

EleGirl said:


> LOL... that's funny.. sadly.. but so true.
> 
> When my 2nd MIL found out that I was filing for divorce she verbally attacked me... she was yelling at me something like: How dare you... after you all he's done for you, after he supported you and on and on about how I had used him for his money. I had to stop her mid-rant and remind her that.. Hm, I supported him through most of the marriage and put him through medical school and residency. If anyone used anyone it was he who used me. That shut up the wicked witch of the west.
> 
> .


Mommas and/or pappas have a way of doing that don't they. They keep playing their role that helped create their dysfunctional adult children.


----------



## JukeboxHero

Once again, A lot of great information from lots of women and men on this thread. My only issue is: this seems to be turning into a bit of a "gender" battle with some members saying "Well, women do bad things in marriages too" and, "It's not always the man's fault, stop blaming guys for 80% of divorces" etc.. 

I don't think @SurpriseMyself is saying that. I think that she's saying "Here's what I've learned about a particular situation that's a common problem in marriages and caused my marriage to end". 

I'm pretty sure that most people here care about their relationship or maybe had a bad past relationship and are hoping to fix their relationships and improve themselves. (although, I'm sure some people are also here to vent or help others too).

Bad relationships run a broad spectrum of whose fault it is and who needs to improve. Sometimes it's a bit of each, sometimes it's a lot more on one spouse than the other. Sometimes the husband won't listen, sometimes the Wife is too demanding. I guess the most challenging aspect is what's considered reasonable and what's asking too much...

I think the important thing is whether either spouse is willing at themselves and honestly assess if they're doing their best to make their partner feel great and if not, make necessary changes and work with their partner to make sure that compromises can be made to meet the needs of BOTH people.




SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I think men get a lot of mixed messages. Lots of guys even here are told "she must be sh*t testing you, don't do what she's asking" Or "my wife gets upset every time I do dishes because she says I put the dishes in the dishwasher wrong" and is told she's just a b*tch and a nag and to teach her a lesson.
> 
> In so many of these cases they started with a few "hey hun, next time you do them could you remember to put the bowls in upside down so they don't gather water? Thanks " and then turned into the "darn it Bob, why do you do it wrong??! You never listen to me!!!"
> Now they hear you but now you're a b*tch and nagging and it's probably a sh*t test that you should stand up to.
> 
> *there are cases where you just have to say fine, if you want this done your way, YOU do it, I'll take on the laundry instead* But every situation is different and whether or not a person is being unreasonable with what they are asking for is very subjective. Sometimes you should just do what she's asked.
> 
> I think another part of it is that some don't take our feelings very seriously.
> She's nagging, she's emotional and silly, she's unrealistic and irrational, she's just having a bad day, she must be on her period. They roll their eyes, silly women and their silly emotions and go about their day. We shut up, everything must be all better.



This is an interesting point, and I'm glad you brought it up. I've heard people give me this advice too. In my situation, I know that I didn't always clean things or load the Dishwasher to her expectations. I think being neat and tidy is still something I need to work, but on the other hand, she's very particular about how the laundry is done, how clothes are folded, etc. I've always been told to let her do the chores if she's too demanding. 

Also, it's funny you mention the Dishwasher. We never actually run our DW, but we use it to dry dishes. She had a few rules that I would inevitably forget to follow, like "separate the silverware into different compartments" and "always put the glasses on the top shelf' and eventually she would become visibly perturbed and scold me when I failed to do them. I didn't see any reason to separate the silverware as I would just do that when I put them away.

That's just one example..so am I the husband who's ignoring her needs or is she the nagging wife? You decide!



SurpriseMyself said:


> I honestly think my STBXH just isn't capable of loving a woman the way she needs to be loved. For a long time I've felt that he views his role as a father as a series of tasks to be accomplished. Make kids breakfast - check. Get kids in bed - check. He did the same thing as a husband. Do the dishes - check. Mow the grass - check.
> 
> The thing is, you can't treat your marriage like items on a checklist. At one point when I was telling him what I wanted to be different, he did this outright and it really ticked me off. I was telling him that I'd like him to make eye contact with me when we were discussing something important. I didn't even get a chance to say why before he interrupted with, "Make eye contact. Got it. What else?" So I named the next thing, which was please respond when I speak to him. He responded with, "Respond. Got it. What else?"
> 
> I felt so stupid even saying these things. It was like giving him a list of things to do when I was out of town, like water the plants or feed the fish. It truly showed that he didn't "get it" at all. And worse when he did those things for about 4 days and stopped. What was the point of even asking anymore ....


It seems like in this scenario, he was actually trying to meet your needs and NOT ignoring you completely, though.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

@SurpriseMyself ...you did a phenomenal Job to explain WHY this happens.. HOW it so often plays out.... would make a good "sticky" here...

MEN NEED TO BE STRONGLY AWARE... KNOW THY WOMAN.. when it comes to walk aways.. a few questions come to mind for me...

*#1*. *Was the man abusive in any way?* If so.. I can easily see why she was on the passive side...for her own self preservation.. being direct & honest could cost her a black eye, busted lip or worse... (pure sympathy for the woman).. Emotional abuse could take many forms ....for effective communication.. we need to feel "safe" enough to open up, be vulnerable...be honest ...for seeking change..

*#2* *If the husband wasn’t abusive , this never a fear.*..* HOW much did she effectively communicate her needs/ her urgency - to warn him, to share her inner pain.. so he had opportunity to do something about it ?* (If she was too quiet or gave mixed messages....I would have some sympathy for the man.. and the blindsiding that follows)..

Some of us women are direct, assertive & straight to the point - bordering being a Bi*ch about it...we’ll let him know he’s fcking up, we're hurt, we're angry.. we want changes.. we'll get in your face... No man in good conscience could call this sort of woman a "walk away" when that falls apart ...

Many men may NOT appreciate such brashness... but make no mistake.. just cause a woman isn't that in your face - wearing her anger or her







on her sleeve.. by no way means = everything is OK....she has just chosen to STUFF IT....this is the beginning of her torment, feeling alone..... this needs dug up & emotionally dealt with before she has S L O W L Y lost all love for her man...

It's good for a man to ASK questions.. to seek her happiness.. but this goes for us women too ! .... I married a more passive man, so I know what I am talking about.. there was a time he was building some resentment towards ME.. and I had NO CLUE ! It was minor on the scale of things we read here.. but it can happen in any marriage. 

Be ever so careful for the subtle cues of the Passive personality... they may put on a SMILING FACE ... say "I love you" (maybe it's a habit) , rarely raise their voice...never rock the boat....say things they don’t mean..... while they are slowly dying inside... while the man is oblivious what is REALLY boiling under the surface...

Hopefully he's not so preoccupied with his job /hobbies to realize something is OFF....but still he may not grasp how deeply she is suffering...meanwhile she is taking it to her girlfriends, maybe a forum like this.. another man waiting in the wings, perhaps!...


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Therealbrighteyes said:


> This is a post about why wives walked away. It isn't about you, or the next guy. It's about why a particular wife left her marriage and her experience with it. Others have chimed in as to their reasons and experiences. Why you and some others are taking this personally or as an attack is beyond me. Is your wife the OP? If not, why are you and the others threadjacking this topic to make it all about yourselves?


Yes, this! Many men immediately jumped on the defensive on this thread, sadly, when its intention was not to bash men, but to hopefully offer some guidance to men who may be in this situation. Or for those who WERE in this situation and wonder what the heck happened it can offer some insight. This is NOT a man bashing thread.


----------



## just got it 55

Listen I get it men can be thick Thankfully I caught on in time to save my M

BUT...... Sooooo many guys say they were blindsided Can't we all agree that does happen ? more than some would be willing to admit?

55


----------



## MattMatt

3Xnocharm said:


> Yes, this! Many men immediately jumped on the defensive on this thread, sadly, when its intention was not to bash men, but to hopefully offer some guidance to men who may be in this situation. Or for those who WERE in this situation and wonder what the heck happened it can offer some insight. This is NOT a man bashing thread.


I have OCD. One of the ways this manifests itself is that if someone says: "I believe that such-and-such is always the case case. "

I will say: "OK, but really? It's always the case? Are there any exceptions to that?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AliceA

IMO, sometimes those that attack a post like this have generally had something about it touch on a sore spot, whether they've had similar complaints made to them from a partner that they have disregarded (but have made the excuses that allow them to shake any responsibility) or they have had something niggling at the back of their brain saying they aren't being honest with themselves. Then having it brought up causes some to get defensive and prickly.


----------



## Hardtohandle

SurpriseMyself said:


> I hope that's satire. I've not met the woman who tried and tried to communicate and make her marriage work only to abandon her children and leave for a younger man. I'm sure there are awful women who do exactly what you've described, but the women I know work, are contributing financially and raising ther children, and aren't planning on leaving for some other man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Umm, you should read my thread.. 

Though my ex wife didn't leave me for someone younger.. 

I will say this, beyond these attempted affair and affairs my ex wife was pretty dam caring to me and the kids.. But this last affair completely made her into some monster.. IDK why honestly.. 

Sometimes I think women complain about the wrong thing or just don't speak up at all and just think you should know..

Sometimes the wife might be complaining about the toilet seat being up but really means I'm not happy.. Sadly she thinks the former will translate into the latter somehow in the mans head..

Personally my ex wife griped about me playing computer games in COUNSELING but NEVER to me in person.. I admit I did.. 

BUT it didn't prevent me from going out and we did.. It didn't stop me from telling my wife I loved her everyday.. Which trust me I did.. I found my wife more sexier 6 months before I caught her having the affair than I did 10 years ago.. I would have leveled the earth for my wife at her command..


----------



## 3Xnocharm

just got it 55 said:


> Listen I get it men can be thick Thankfully I caught on in time to save my M
> 
> BUT...... Sooooo many guys say they were blindsided Can't we all agree that does happen ? more than some would be willing to admit?
> 
> 55


Of course that happens. I have no doubt there are cunning women out there who have no issues screwing over their husband. However my experience has been that they were not blindsided, as they feel they were, they just blew off their wife when they were approached by her, not listening when she told them how she was feeling. To them, what she is concerned about is nothing, so they dont even give it a thought, then the next thing they know she is out the door, while he scratches his head wondering what the hell happened. 

BE PRESENT!!


----------



## Cosmos

> Posted by Therealbrighteyes
> 
> This is a post about why wives walked away. It isn't about you, or the next guy. It's about why a particular wife left her marriage and her experience with it. Others have chimed in as to their reasons and experiences. Why you and some others are taking this personally or as an attack is beyond me. Is your wife the OP? If not, why are you and the others threadjacking this topic to make it all about yourselves?





> 3Xnocharm posted
> 
> Yes, this! Many men immediately jumped on the defensive on this thread, sadly, when its intention was not to bash men, but to hopefully offer some guidance to men who may be in this situation. Or for those who WERE in this situation and wonder what the heck happened it can offer some insight. This is NOT a man bashing thread.


I agree. I don't see any man bashing here, but I do see a few posters trying to destabilize and attention shift the thread...

There is a lot to be learned from this thread because it gives some valuable insight into why women walk away from relationships.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

just got it 55 said:


> Listen I get it men can be thick Thankfully I caught on in time to save my M
> 
> BUT...... Sooooo many guys say they were blindsided Can't we all agree that does happen ? more than some would be willing to admit?
> 
> 55


If the husband is "blindsided" by a WAW, her decision to exit the marriage is the correct one. It further shows how little he was paying attention. 
Again, WAW is a wife who has expressed over and over what her needs are and was met with no change, she then decided to leave. Not to be confused with a WW, who is sneaky, deceptive and anything but honest about her needs.


----------



## OpenWindows

just got it 55 said:


> Listen I get it men can be thick Thankfully I caught on in time to save my M
> 
> BUT...... Sooooo many guys say they were blindsided Can't we all agree that does happen ? more than some would be willing to admit?
> 
> 55


Of course, it does happen. Some men are honestly blindsided and had no good reason to know it was coming. But I think that's relatively rare.

Some men were blindsided, and they really didn't see it coming, but they had plenty of warnings that they wouldn't or couldn't see.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

JukeboxHero said:


> This is an interesting point, and I'm glad you brought it up. I've heard people give me this advice too. In my situation, I know that I didn't always clean things or load the Dishwasher to her expectations. I think being neat and tidy is still something I need to work, but on the other hand, she's very particular about how the laundry is done, how clothes are folded, etc. I've always been told to let her do the chores if she's too demanding.
> 
> Also, it's funny you mention the Dishwasher. We never actually run our DW, but we use it to dry dishes. She had a few rules that I would inevitably forget to follow, like "separate the silverware into different compartments" and "always put the glasses on the top shelf' and eventually she would become visibly perturbed and scold me when I failed to do them. I didn't see any reason to separate the silverware as I would just do that when I put them away.
> 
> That's just one example..so am I the husband who's ignoring her needs or is she the nagging wife? You decide!


It's hard to judge a situation without both sides. To me that seems unreasonable but I also don't think that just gives the other person a free pass 
There are some things H doesn't think I do right. Ok then, that one is YOURS now. Enjoy. But then I just do something else.

So, IMO, it would be "fine, you do the dishes how you want to, I will take over the sweeping and mopping then" You do your laundry as you want it, she can do hers how she does. If you both work there should still be some kind of a equal division with household duties and there are tons of things a partner can take on if they drop one of them. Car maintenance, yard work, groceries, bathrooms, floors, cooking. 

That way there is still compromise, still listening, still working together. It's not one person sits on their butt while the other takes more on.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

just got it 55 said:


> Listen I get it men can be thick Thankfully I caught on in time to save my M
> 
> BUT...... Sooooo many guys say they were blindsided Can't we all agree that does happen ? more than some would be willing to admit?
> 
> 55


Yep, it happens a lot. 

Mine thought things were generally ok. That I wasn't super happy but good enough not to leave. That it was fixable and not a huge deal. 

Anytime I tried to tell him otherwise I'd get the "here we go again" eye roll and think I was being pissy at the moment. He'd "yes, dear" me. Agree to work on things and go about his day thinking he solved the situation ( He had diffused the immediate fight). He just never actually had the follow through, the consistency, the doing stuff without getting to the point where I had to nag him.

Some of the times he would actually say to me "We already talked about this, why do you keep b*tching about the same thing over and over again!" 
Geez, maybe because you didn't do anything about it!

(I'm starting to remember what got me to my seething rage stage:wink2


----------



## Hardtohandle

breeze said:


> IMO, sometimes those that attack a post like this have generally had something about it touch on a sore spot, whether they've had similar complaints made to them from a partner that they have disregarded (but have made the excuses that allow them to shake any responsibility) or they have had something niggling at the back of their brain saying they aren't being honest with themselves. Then having it brought up causes some to get defensive and prickly.


No its a sore spot because I never had the chance to fix or help fix what went wrong with my wife.. I would have done ANYTHING to fix my marriage and I did on SEVERAL occasions.. 

I never, ever cheated on my wife no matter how many times she looked to cheat.. 2 wrongs do not make a right.. I turned down sex when I was 1000s of miles away from home.. No one would have EVER KNOWN... I politely tossed out a half naked woman from my room.. 

Plain and simple. I was always there for her.. I found a reason to love her when I hated her the most.. When she hurt me the most.. 

In the end it was her fvcking turn.. It was her turn to stick it out and fight for our marriage.. 

But she didn't.. She left me and the kids pretty much.. She hasn't spoken to our oldest son in 3 years.. Why ? WTF did he do ? Because he understood and wouldn't accept this man with open arms ?

I don't understand it.. Its over 3 years and I just don't understand it.. I moved on with my life because I had no fvcking other choice.. I had to move on or just kill myself.. It really was that fvcking simple.. I wish I was making this sh!t up.. 

I never expected this.. How this just came crashing down so fvcking fast.. 20 years of being together through thick and thin.. All the troubles and all the good stuff.. 2 great, great boys.. Not because they are my boys.. They honestly are good kids.. My oldest gets 99 in high school because the computer system can't give out 100s.. The report card doesn't print out triple digits.. My youngest has some issues school wise but I am getting him a tutor 4 days a week to keep him on point.. But beyond that he is ACES... No discipline problems.. Nothing.. My kids didn't want anything for christmas because they have everything.. I bought my youngest a scuff gaming controller, 200+ dollars.. He was ecstatic.. He just didn't expect it.. He hugged me to no end saying thank you..

My ex just didn't walk way.. She left in a firey explosion like in the movies.. I wished she would have walked away gracefully and peacefully.. But she didn't.. She made sure, she made it her fvcking job to show me what little she thought of me. .What little respect she had of me.. What a piece of sh!t she thought of me.. 

For what ? WTF did I do ? I was an honest hard working man.. I went to counseling with her every time.. I supported her.. I listened.. I told I loved her every fvcking day and I really did.. I really fvcking did she was my sun, my moon, my stars, she was my life.. I had purpose with her with me.. I felt I had a reason in life.. She would hug me and whatever was bothering me or ailed would wash away.. 

So yea... These sort of post do hit a raw nerve with me.. 

How to prevent a walkaway spouse would have been more proper.. Marriage is a 2 way street.. I did the most macho job around in the most macho city.. NYC COP/Detective for 25 years.. Those cop shows on TV are about NYC and further they are Detectives for the most part.. 

But it didn't mean I didn't listen and didn't care.. I wasn't afraid to show my emotions.. To express myself... Yea maybe some men are but not me.. It doesn't make me weaker.. it makes me stronger.. 

So yea people fvck up.. Sometimes several times.. 
It doesn't mean you give the fvck up.. It means you stick it the fvck out and smash your spouse in the face with reality, you shake them until it hurts.. 

I did everything for her.. She fvcking owed me.. Anyone else would have cut her lose long ago.. Anyone else would have been cheating long ago..

I didn't.. I stayed true to her and my marriage and my family.. 

SHE FVCKING OWED ME...... INSTEAD SHE TOSSED ME ASIDE LIKE OLD TRASH.. 

IT'S NOT FVKCING FAIR.. IT'S NOT RIGHT.. 

NOW THE ONLY SOLACE I HAVE IS TO MAKE HER PAY IN COURT IN CHILD SUPPORT. TO SUCK HER THE FVCK DRY.. TO MAKE HER WONDER HOW THE FVCK SHE IS GONNA PAY ME AND PAY HER RENT AT THE SAME TIME.. TO WONDER IF THIS OTHER MAN IS GONNA GET TIRED OF HER AND LEAVE HER NOW THAT HE IS GONNA HAVE TO PAY ME AS WELL TO KEEP HER.. 

That is all I have now.. A big ball of anger for her and a bunch of revenge.. 

Today I make more money then I can spend.. 
I have 2 great kids. 
I have a GF that is almost 10 years younger than the ex wife, makes about 4x more than the ex wife ( over 100k ).. She drives me crazy but is extremely attractive.. 

But I also have to live with what I posted above as well from my *walkaway wife.*.


----------



## OpenWindows

HardtoHandle... I'm very sorry your wife did that. That's awful, and I'm sure you don't deserve that.

But that's not what this thread is about. A walkaway wife is not just a wife who walks away, it's a very specific situation. It's when a wife is unhappy with her marriage, she complains, and she's ignored. So she emotionally checks out and just goes through the motions, and the husband assumes everything is okay because she's stopped complaining. Then after a while, she gets tired of going through the motions and decides to leave, and he's surprised by it.

You do not have a walkaway wife. You have a wandering wife. I'm sorry this thread touched a nerve with you, but you are not the kind of husband we are discussing, so try not to take it too personally.


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## SimplyAmorous

just got it 55 said:


> Listen I get it men can be thick Thankfully I caught on in time to save my M
> 
> BUT...... *Sooooo many guys say they were blindsided Can't we all agree that does happen ?* more than some would be willing to admit?
> 
> 55


This is on a lessor scale....I will call this a "Walk away girlfriend"... let me share some Blindsiding.... you make up your own minds...

Just because this happened to our son does not mean I am exaggerating this situation .... In fact.. I took this girls SIDE against our son *because I trusted her words so much*.. I felt he was taking her for Granted.. due to the sweetness she portrayed as a front to all.. but it wasn't real.. she spoke things she NEVER MEANT.. she never came through.. it was a facade.. Lies...so she wouldn't look bad.. then she was DONE.. after 3 & a half years.. in a TEXT while on a vacation states away.. 

I have very little respect for how she handled this....although I DON'T blame her for moving on to another... in reality.. I feel this was for the best.. even though son took this very very hard.. is still struggling over the loss.. and I was really worried for him for a time. 

We come to learn in the aftermath.. she was loosing feelings for him *a year BEFORE*.... a freaking YEAR !... Now.. what does it say about someone who gushes, mushes, and speaks like the sun, stars & moon lays on her BF.. Facebook postings of Happiness, "I love him so much"... saying things like "Look I'm with this guy.. he's my world" 9 days before she was DONE....and moved on with one of his friends.... 

His Graduation note spoke how "she loved him so much, she's always so proud, she will give him his Graduation gift after her vacation , for now she is his gift".. 4 days later.. SHE IS DONE.. nothing he can say - she has moved on...she can't see him.. 

Was the hell was the gift.. a stab in the back to be with his friend ?? Meanwhile this Judas comes to his party...showing off playing the human flag pole...(oh & he was a Youth leader no less)







...then talking to ME while she is texting him at 1 am in the morning... laughing with our daughter..... My heart sank.. I knew that night.. it was over.. she is 2 timing him while playing the loving GF. 

I speak this very sarcastically ...because for the life of me.. why in the hell did she do this??? Not to mention every B-day, holiday a 2 page letter of .."You are the best thing that's ever happened to me"..."I love you so much.. I look forward to our future together"... She puffed our son up so damn high.. he could have floated away.. 

I have seen some of these RECENT letters ...I wanted to throw up...









Meanwhile things were stirring underneath for someone else.....Son was neglectful.. (basically stupid, too many video games, hanging with friends, blew her off when she wanted him to go to parties)...I understand that.. heck I'd be MAD TOO.. but I sure wouldn't have praised him & acted like it was all good [email protected]#

But No.. she played the devoted doting GF till the very end... the fact I was telling someone at son's own Grad party how I think these 2 will be breaking up while they were shocked I would say such a thing due to *how SHE portrayed their relationship* .. is rather pathetic, isn't it ? 

She did say to him weeks before she didn't feel they were best friends anymore...this was probably the biggest warning he had...plus she didn't want to stop texting his friend one night.. he was very upset over that.. 

Was that suffice -given her written mush all over social media, in her letters, promising when he goes to college, she would visit him... 

*She NEVER started a fight with him..she ate it.. and he thought everything was Ok*... (Granted.. these 2 are both young... and stupid.. so hopefully they both learned a hard lesson.. son now doesn't trust women much at all.. and he'd told her to never do THIS to another guy!)

I think there is some sort of honesty BAR that should be taken into consideration with any Walk AWAY....

One thing my son's ex said to him after it was all over & she was DONE was..* "YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN"??* ...how many have heard that one ?

I seen signs that I felt son was screwing up.. but he shouldn't have heard it from his mother... he needed to hear it FROM [email protected]#

She tells him afterwards ...sometimes she was "screaming inside".. why oh Why oh why didn't she tell him THEN... when she was feeling it...

Our son is not a violent hurtful guy in any way shape or form.. She can not use the excuse of FEAR... he wouldn't have hurt her.. stalked her.... 

What I feel happened here was... she held on till she was sure she had the next guy lined up, and it was safe to jump into HIS arms.. 

But looking at this.. trying to give blame where it is due.. I can see *her side*.....*but also his side* .. I remember him saying to me.,.. "we never fight".. now in my world.. that is not exactly a good sign.... I think 9 times out of 10.. one of them is getting their way MORE SO.. while the other is "stuffing" ...It's far superior to have a healthy fight, some good making up & grow towards each other... 

Told 3rd son's Gf the other day.. if he's being a D**k.. to make sure she tells him what sort of Dic* he is.. loud & clear.. don't stuff it.. she knows I don't want to see a repeat of this happening again! I do rather love this gf.. she's more like me! She'll cause a roar ! And son can see the benefit in this.. over what his brother went through..

Son felt deeply betrayed by the lies of these 2....double stab in the back there....yeah.. even if he made mistakes.. ya know.. a hard lesson.. for sure..


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I understand that SA. One of my Mother's biggest upsets about her divorce is that he acted like he loved her when he didn't, for years. 
Sounds like his gf was a cheater, not a WAG. 

On the other side, I know with me I tried to 'catch more flies with honey' approach. Tried to meet his needs (words of affirmation) to pump him up enough he would start to give back a little. Tried to lead by example of the the things I was wanting him to do for me. 
None of it worked then, just made him think even more that we were doing ok but I couldn't always be unhappy because then I was a nag who was always unhappy. I couldn't stop meeting all his needs because then he would just be in the same spot I was in and I just couldn't (for my sake) keep saying the same thing over and over again. In my mind, if I have asked you a few times to do something and you don't, that pretty much tells me all I need to know. If I have to nag it out of him, I don't even want it at that point. 

So yes, tell them when you have a problem but also LISTEN the first time she says something. She means it then, she means it tomorrow, she means it every day. She shouldn't have to keep telling you.


----------



## Rugby

Above all, the original post highlights the pendulum swing that has occurred due to feminist rhetoric and women gaining more income equality. As women gain the freedom to leave, they will if they are dissatisfied in the marriage. Men would likely be equally apt to leave if more states amended family statutes to be more equitable. In most US states, men get destroyed in divorce. Women know that and avail themselves of the power shift. 

I strongly favor income equality and female empowerment, but laws should be brought current to reflect modern realities and norms. The Swedish model would be infinately more appropriate given 21st century realities. Alimony should be limited to the length of time to educate the less educated spouse, and both parents should have equal parental rights. The current system allows women to be bad actors. If human nature has taught us anything, it is that people will take advantage if given the opportunity. The system used to favor men, and they acted accordingly. It now favors women, especially finanically, so they act accordingly. 

Many men's wives leave perfectly decent men because they are entitled and bored, both of which are logical byproducts of 21st century man-loathing rhetoric. Even the score in the courts, and women would be more apprehensive to end marriages over petty complaints. The inference in the initial post is that men are the principal driver of divorce, which is absurd. If that is/was the OP's anectdotal experience, fine. However, to assume that it is primarily men's fault that divorce occurs because most divorces are initiated by women is an ignorant position to take. 

Good sociological data clearly evidences that all things being equal, especially equal earning power, women cheat, lie, and abuse power as often as men. As such, to infer or state that the walk away wife phenomenon is the consequence of neanderthal-like behavior on the part of men is baseless. If her STBXH is/was a negligent @$$hole, then good on her for leaving, but that in no way explains the phenomenon. Correlation in your case does not equal broad based causation. The phenomenon is driven largely by economic realities and biology.

I know this is long, but one more point is worth mentioning. From a biochemical standpoint, men's and women's sex hormones both in terms of levels through the life cycle of a relationship and each sex's response to them are appreciably different. Both genders experience a spike in sex hormones and dopamine loop response at the beginning of a relationship. For men, it fades and then levels off at about the 3 to 5 year mark. Women are the same but with one marked difference. Their hormone levels and responsiveness fall off a cliff at the point when the man's level off. Consequently, most men are happy as long as they get the kind of sex they want with normal frequency. Women complain about their mundane, boring sex life do to a lack of connection much more frequently than men, the root cause of which is evolutionary biology. So, the next time you ladies pick a guy apart for not changing into what you want him to be, a little introspection and a touch of good research-based knowledge is probably a good first start rather than calling a divorce attorney. Otherwise, in 5 years you can rinse and repeat with the next guy. Don't blame men for your biochemical realities, blame God or evolution, whichever you subscribe to. I side with science and factual knowledge. Life is much to complex and hard to live in ignorance.


----------



## RoseAglow

SA, I was a lot like your son's ex-girlfriend when I was younger. I would have some gripes that I considered minor, I'd focus instead on how much I loved my partner and would try to ignore the "minor" issues. Then one day, there was a final straw and I was just DONE. It seemed to come out of nowhere. I'd have gone from being madly in love to ice queen in a matter of hours. I did this twice, once after a year with the fella, and once after three years.

It made me think that something was wrong with me, that I just wasnt relationship material. And I was not relationship material at the time! But it wasn't that something was wrong with me; I just didn't have the knowledge or relationship skills to realize what was happening.

I had two issues going on. The first was that I didn't believe that it was wise to ask for changes, because I had a belief that guys would not change, and if they did change because you asked them to, it would cause resentment. Therefore my strategy was to accept that I wasn't going to like everything, so I'd stick around for as long as I was happy. (I had zero interest in getting married at that point, mostly because I couldn't see any possible long-term happiness in it, based on this belief.)

The other issue is that I had no understanding of emotional needs, or the idea that people have "giver" and "taker" qualities, and they need to be balanced out. Today, I realize that in both situations, I simply had moments where I'd "given" too much, and the "taker" side said "Time to lose this chump. This relationship has played out." 

I think those two exes of mine would relate to your son. As far as they knew, things were going great and then I just turned on them. One of them in particular was very bitter. At the time, I didn't care at all. As far as I was concerned, I was a kick ass girlfriend for as long as he deserved it. If I was a crap girlfriend, I fully expected him to dump me, so I didn't think he had any cause to complain when he got dumped for whatever it was that put me over the line. They simply should have known better, in my eyes. I was very immature, even into my late 20s/early 30s. 

I don't know if the ex-gf has some whacked ideas like mine, I'm just posting them because it is possible to be so clueless that you don't know that you're losing your love for someone, and then suddenly that emotional love bank is depleted, and the taker is making the decision to terminate.

But I agree with your post. Sure, my exes should have known better than to ditch me on his birthday to hang with his fellas, or whatever it was. And I should have been more self-aware and more vocal. Such is life as teenagers and young adults, I think. If we were taught relationship skills early on, it would help. 

I do think that most walk-away wives attempt to communicate with their husbands, though. It's one thing to walk away from a dating relationship, and quite another to walk away from a marriage, especially if kids are involved. You see it on TAM all the time: the bewildered husband says that the wife was telling him that she was unhappy, but he just didn't realize how serious it was. If he'd known his serious she was, he would have made changes. They believed, like the poster above, that if she was nagging and threatening divorce, and he wasn't listening, then it was the wife's problem. I recall a thread from a while ago discussing the idea that women were poor communicators, because the men weren't getting the message until the wives walked. They acknowledged that the women had in fact said things, but had not made a strong enough case. 

There is some truth in both, I think. We need to alter the cultural mores to encourage husbands to take their wives complaints seriously. and we need to teach women to be more vocal and push for resolution early. One major hallmark of a WAW is that she is worn out and depleted by the time she leaves. Too much damage has been done for her to take back her husband, even if he's willing to make changes. If she'd pushed the issues early on, maybe there would be something left for rebuilding. But it's counter-intuitive and counter-cultural to do this, we believe we need to stick it out as long as possible. We need to teach real communication and conflict resolution skills. All of these things would take a major change in our 1st world, Western mores.


----------



## alphaomega

Op

I agree communication and listening and compassion are all required for a good marriage....but...

There's one major flaw in your post. "Those are all just excuses" is a broad sweep and entirely based on your experience. It's well documented that males have subtlety different brain chemistry than females, and that tiny difference makes ALL the difference. There's a reason why that saying "men are just men" is very common. Because it's true. 

Males are very literal. While women speak emotionally. And the two don't mix at all. You could rant and explain all you want, and it's like hitting a brick wall with a bat. It just won't make a dent. Which is why guys get blind sided when divorce happens under these circumstances. While "you" could see it happen a million miles away and are actually flabbergasted by our "I didn't know anything was wrong..." Response. 

If you want to equate it with "love languages", you two are speaking very different ones. Call it "gender languages" if you will. 

Perhaps you didn't understand your ex spouse as well as you thought.


----------



## alphaomega

Very well written and articulated, rugby. Much better than I could do.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> *I understand that SA. One of my Mother's biggest upsets about her divorce is that he acted like he loved her when he didn't, for years.
> Sounds like his gf was a cheater, not a WAG.*


 Honesty can cut deep - to learn he fell out of love.. very difficult ...anytime we learn of being LIED to, led to believe something that wasn't felt in the heart...it blackens everything we thought we believed....it all gets called into question...

I don't believe she cheated on him physically ... I really don't... but I do believe those 2 had a PLAN to get together.. and they KNEW this the day of his Graduation Party.. . yet she came over to me while leaving telling me our son hardly spent any time with her ...again .. I felt sad for her (like son -you need a brick !)... meanwhile my SIL who doesn't even know that guy friend (Judas) --she tells me later she noticed all day how his GF was chummying up to him, asking who he was.... I was too busy to notice! Always 2 sides to a story. Everyone wants to be the victim..

It's a hard one for me to swallow.. I felt the weight of son's Betrayal for months...I've cried for him...I've cried with him....when he opened up his side of the story.... it has lifted recently for me... 

I really should thank Judas though.. cause he saved us $7,000 !!! - as we were planning on paying for a higher priced college just so son & this GF could be close to each other. (I am a hopeless romantic.. anything for love !$%^).... that breakup left us with a couple weeks to change colleges (beginning of August) -it was by the grace of God He was able to get in where he did... it was closer to home & $7,000 less out of our pockets a year... some good came out of this ! 



> *On the other side, I know with me I tried to 'catch more flies with honey' approach. Tried to meet his needs (words of affirmation) to pump him up enough he would start to give back a little. Tried to lead by example of the the things I was wanting him to do for me.
> None of it worked then, just made him think even more that we were doing ok but I couldn't always be unhappy because then I was a nag who was always unhappy. I couldn't stop meeting all his needs because then he would just be in the same spot I was in and I just couldn't (for my sake) keep saying the same thing over and over again. In my mind, if I have asked you a few times to do something and you don't, that pretty much tells me all I need to know. If I have to nag it out of him, I don't even want it at that point.*


 I must give his ex a little credit here.. this was probably *her approach too*.. she was well over compensating with those words of affirmation... I noticed the year before...a look of sadness in her eyes when she asked him to come to her Grandmothers for Thanksgiving.. after she was at our house...& he didn't want to go... I talked to her about it the next day... . she told me she didn't think he realized what he was doing... but she had faith in him.. 

Also the night she broke up , she texted me to make sure he'd be ok.. one thing she said was "she wanted to be with someone who wanted to be with her ALL THE TIME... not someone she had to push into it ".... and again..I can understand that.. SO EASILY... I'd feel the same.. I sympathize with those wants, those desires.... terribly.. She had pain too...

And nagging would only make the woman feel worse.. but it seems men (and I love 'em) but some really really need a boulder upside the head....

It's like they have to loose something - to appreciate it.. like that old song... "Don't know what you got.. till it's gone".. 

After this happened.. I shouldn't laugh but something son said to me struck me funny...at the time I wished it was ENOUGH to get her back.. but it wasn't...He was trying desperately ...he'd do anything, how they could have it all.. he'd never be this stupid again... he was trying to learn a song on the guitar to sing to her..... it was SAD really for me to behold.. but he said to me... he was going to get her back ..... "she sucked up to me all this time... now it's my turn to suck up to her "...or something like that...

But it was just TOO LATE.. a few weeks go by.. he's loosing faith...His life was a revolving "When I was your Man" song.. 

WHY are some men like this ?? His dad was never like this.. He'd listen when I spoke.. . I don't know.. Son is only 18.. I can use the excuse his brain is not fully developed yet. 



> *So yes, tell them when you have a problem but also LISTEN the first time she says something. She means it then, she means it tomorrow, she means it every day. She shouldn't have to keep telling you*.


 I think it was Thundarr.. I really liked an earlier post of his...I think many of these issues can be a lack of compatibility too.. we can try to BE what the other wants to "keep them" but if it's really not a part of how we enjoy living and being.. it's just not going to last.... it will falter in the long run... and we're right back where we began..

Whereas had we been with someone more intuned to what floats our boat.. they just might enjoy & revel in those very things we so want so much to give & receive.. I've seen this with my parents.. My father wasn't happy with my mother.. they bulked heads in many ways... but with my step Mom.. he was the finest husband ever, he could walk on water...what a difference ! Breaking up & divorce can be the best thing to happen to many.. Happiness is important. 



Thundarr said:


> *Sometimes there's no preventing a WAW but the warning signs are usually there and some marriages could be saved with a little effort.
> 
> Other marriages are filled with unreasonable expectations and blame shifting. Those are doomed from the start.
> 
> And other marriages are just two incompatible people. *
> 
> But regarding marriages that have a chance, we tend to think everything is fine or fixed if time passes and arguing settles down but that couldn't be further from the truth. It just as likely means the spouse is becoming indifferent. So it generally takes a long time for someone to give up and then wait for an exit strategy. There's maybe some good days during this time when things seem okay but no one is talking about the elephant in the room or acknowledging there's an elephant at all. A common scenario for this is when mom stays with dad until the kids are grown only mom starts seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and runs a little before they're grown.


----------



## Cosmos

FrenchFry said:


> Rugby basically said women leave because of:
> 
> Boredom
> Entitlement
> Money
> Hormones
> 
> Which is pretty much what all the ladies in this thread said that their blindsided husbands thought was going on with them.
> 
> That's pretty much the opposite of why they say they left as well.
> 
> Weird.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You missed out "man loathing." :wink2:


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Aw. He'll do just fine SA. Has some wonderful role models to turn to. I'm not looking forward to the heartbreak times with my kids.


Males are very literal. While women speak emotionally. And the two don't mix at all. You could rant and explain all you want, and it's like hitting a brick wall with a bat. It just won't make a dent. 

I just don't get it. As a woman, to me, telling my H that I'm upset that he did/didn't do X is pretty literal and logical. It only became a problem when he _assumed _it was me being emotional and not that I'm actually, really saying something important. 

Don't think I'm jumping on you, I agree that there is a big difference in how people communicate and hear. I just don't think I'll ever understand the men's side and how my H could hear me rant and explain and just not get it. 

Maybe if more men could look at their wives words as literal and logical and not just emotional they would hear them better?

What would you suggest as a way to get through to men of WAWs?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Cosmos said:


> You missed out "man loathing." It was at that point that I became yawnsome. :wink2:


and enough alimony and child support to be totally comfortable with leaving for their "petty complaints" which people have spent pretty much the whole thread trying to get across that they aren't petty, it's a whole iceburg of issues under her complaints if you leave them long enough... but then some men just don't hear anything we say (lol)

Divorce sucks for everyone. Most people do not do it lightly. You lose a lot, she is also losing money, support, time with her kids. It's a hard choice. That's why so many WAW, and so many men, stay for so long trying to fix things and/or just watching the time tick by while they wait for their moment. 

The OP has 50/50 custody with her kids and I don't believe she has any spouse or child support. She also was the one to move.


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## EleGirl

alphaomega said:


> Op
> 
> I agree communication and listening and compassion are all required for a good marriage....but...
> 
> There's one major flaw in your post. "Those are all just excuses" is a broad sweep and entirely based on your experience. It's well documented that males have subtlety different brain chemistry than females, and that tiny difference makes ALL the difference. There's a reason why that saying "men are just men" is very common. Because it's true.
> 
> Males are very literal. While women speak emotionally. And the two don't mix at all. You could rant and explain all you want, and it's like hitting a brick wall with a bat. It just won't make a dent. Which is why guys get blind sided when divorce happens under these circumstances. While "you" could see it happen a million miles away and are actually flabbergasted by our "I didn't know anything was wrong..." Response.
> 
> If you want to equate it with "love languages", you two are speaking very different ones. Call it "gender languages" if you will.
> 
> Perhaps you didn't understand your ex spouse as well as you thought.


I am sure that what you say about how you think women communicate is accurate for some women. Hardly for all.

We had a thread months ago in which women stated what they told their husbands ... how they stated things that were ignored. As I recall, most if not all were very clear statements. Not this emotional "gender language".


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## EleGirl

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Aw. He'll do just fine SA. Has some wonderful role models to turn to. I'm not looking forward to the heartbreak times with my kids.
> 
> 
> Males are very literal. While women speak emotionally. And the two don't mix at all. You could rant and explain all you want, and it's like hitting a brick wall with a bat. It just won't make a dent.
> 
> I just don't get it. As a woman, to me, telling my H that I'm upset that he did/didn't do X is pretty literal and logical. It only became a problem when he _assumed _it was me being emotional and not that I'm actually, really saying something important.
> 
> Don't think I'm jumping on you, I agree that there is a big difference in how people communicate and hear. I just don't think I'll ever understand the men's side and how my H could hear me rant and explain and just not get it.
> 
> Maybe if more men could look at their wives words as literal and logical and not just emotional they would hear them better?
> 
> What would you suggest as a way to get through to men of WAWs?


Perhaps if we gave some real examples of what we said that was ignored and taken as emotional, nagging, and bushed aside?


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## Cosmos

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> and enough alimony and child support to be totally comfortable with leaving for their "petty complaints" which people have spent pretty much the whole thread trying to get across that they aren't petty, it's a whole iceburg of issues under her complaints if you leave them long enough... but then some men just don't hear anything we say (lol)


It's rarely about just one thing and by the time it becomes 'emotional' she's often already exhausted every logical and constructive approach available to her.

If I raise my voice, use the F word or (horror of horrors for me) cry - there's probably no going back from that point anyway. I don't need to abase myself and continually nag and wheedle to get a man's attention. I'm done.


----------



## Rugby

Based on the responses given to my contribution to this thread, it is apparent that most of you are confusing your personal experiences, which are entirely anectdotal, with the phenomenon of the WAW. Each individual relationship represents only one data point and has its own idiosyncratic causal mechanisms. The OP's husband could in deed be derelict in his marital responsibilities. With that said, the phenomenon of the WAW, as evidenced by women comprising over 70 percent of all divorce petitioners in the US, is a function of bigger, broader sweeping causal mechanisms, such as statitorial divorce/family law, which nearly always favors women, societal mores, and the current unsubstatiated rhetoric that men are generally insensitive and lazy as compared to women. 

As I stated before, bring some semblance of equality to the courts, which would increase women's skin in the game that is marriage, and there will be much more parity in terms of which spouse petitions for divorce. There are just as many $hitty wives as there are husbands. I work in a technical field that requires extensive travel, with roughly half of my colleagues being high paid women. Given their positions of authority and above average earnings, none must rely on a man or anyone else to support them. Accordingly, there is no substantive difference in the rates of infidelity while on the road, abuses of power in the workplace, or any other form of bad behavior. About half my colleagues are good spouses and the others are not, irrespective of gender. 

Applying one's anectdotal experience to explain a cultural phenomenon is not only a basic logic flaw, it is dangerous as it perpetuates false notions masquerading as facts. Marriage is in no way trivial, particulary when children are involved. Hence, those that endeavor to marry should give the institution its proper due before they consider abandoning it. It sounds like the OP did that, so I commend her for exiting an untenable situation. However, her situation is just that. It is her situation, which neither represents greater society nor constitutes a catch all example of every WAW scenario. Women leave marriage in greater numbers than men because the legal system is less punitive toward them. At a societal level, men and women contribute equally to the demise of marriages. To suggest otherwise is to infer that women are inherently more honest, patient, helpful, caring, considerate, etc., etc., etc., an assertion which has no basis in fact.


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## Cosmos

EleGirl said:


> Perhaps if we gave some real examples of what we said that was ignored and taken as emotional, nagging, and bushed aside?



Me: Sweetie, I really need you to pay attention when I'm trying to address a problem in our relationship. I need you to make eye contact with me so that I know you're listening.

SO: I thought I was making eye contact with you.

Me: No you weren't.

SO: I'm sure I was.

Me: Believe me, you weren't. Your eyes were closed.

SO: I was just resting my eyes. I was listening to you!

Me: No you weren't listening. _You had actually started snoring_!

These sort of conversations are not only crazymaking, but they spell death to a relationship.


----------



## MattMatt

OpenWindows said:


> HardtoHandle... I'm very sorry your wife did that. That's awful, and I'm sure you don't deserve that.
> 
> But that's not what this thread is about. A walkaway wife is not just a wife who walks away, it's a very specific situation. It's when a wife is unhappy with her marriage, she complains, and she's ignored. So she emotionally checks out and just goes through the motions, and the husband assumes everything is okay because she's stopped complaining. Then after a while, she gets tired of going through the motions and decides to leave, and he's surprised by it.
> 
> You do not have a walkaway wife. You have a wandering wife. I'm sorry this thread touched a nerve with you, but you are not the kind of husband we are discussing, so try not to take it too personally.


Actually it IS what this thread is about. It is about WAWs. Hardtohandle had a WAW. 

Oh. Sorry. HTH had the wrong kind of WAW? Wrong kind of WAW because her way of being a WAW does not fit in with the preconceived notion that most kind of WAWS are hard done by their husband?

Some are. But some are not. Some blameshift and rewrite the history of the marriage, badmouthing their husband to friends and family.

My own wife was doing this. She was reeling off a long list of my faults to a female friend of hers who, I could see, was getting frustrated with my wife. So I kept quiet.

Eventually her friend said: "Oh, xxx, be reasonable! You could do worse than Matt. " She looked over to me looked me up and down and said: "A LOT worse! " 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OpenWindows

MattMatt said:


> Actually it IS what this thread is about. It is about WAWs. Hardtohandle had a WAW.
> 
> Oh. Sorry. HTH had the wrong kind of WAW? Wrong kind of WAW because her way of being a WAW does not fit in with the preconceived notion that most kind of WAWS are hard done by their husband?
> 
> Some are. But some are not. Some blameshift and rewrite the history of the marriage, badmouthing their husband to friends and family.
> 
> My own wife was doing this. She was reeling off a long list of my faults to a female friend of hers who, I could see, was getting frustrated with my wife. So I kept quiet.
> 
> Eventually her friend said: "Oh, xxx, be reasonable! You could do worse than Matt. " She looked over to me looked me up and down and said: "A LOT worse! "
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ALL walkaway wives FEEL hard done by their husband. And all walkaway wives feel unheard. And eventually they stop complaining, and then they leave. That's the definition of the term. We generally don't consider a cheater to be a WAW, because she didn't go quiet until she imploded, she went out and got laid.

In every story, there's his side, her side, and the truth. No doubt some WAWs leave good men over petty crap. And some leave not-so-good men over serious crap. And no doubt the husband often feels the crap is less serious than the wife does, because that's exactly what creates a WAW to begin with.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

alphaomega said:


> Op
> 
> I agree communication and listening and compassion are all required for a good marriage....but...
> 
> There's one major flaw in your post. "Those are all just excuses" is a broad sweep and entirely based on your experience. It's well documented that males have subtlety different brain chemistry than females, and that tiny difference makes ALL the difference. There's a reason why that saying "men are just men" is very common. Because it's true.
> 
> Males are very literal. While women speak emotionally. And the two don't mix at all. You could rant and explain all you want, and it's like hitting a brick wall with a bat. It just won't make a dent. Which is why guys get blind sided when divorce happens under these circumstances. While "you" could see it happen a million miles away and are actually flabbergasted by our "I didn't know anything was wrong..." Response.
> 
> If you want to equate it with "love languages", you two are speaking very different ones. Call it "gender languages" if you will.
> 
> Perhaps you didn't understand your ex spouse as well as you thought.


Considering that he knew for a year that I was looking at apartments, that we had been to a marriage counselor and knew I wasn't sure it could even work or that I wanted it to (said during our session with him there), that he told me for a year that I couldn't make it financially or that I should stay until we took the kids to Disney, I don't think I blindsided him in the least. Our marriage counselor recommended 18 months of group therapy for my STBXH to deal with his conflict avoidance issues. He never went to the first session.

I wasn't a walk away wive. But I certainly could have been, especially considering how my opening up did absolutely no good for us. His wish, as I said to him many times was for me to just shut up and be happy. That I could not do.

And I find it interesting that you would say that a minor difference between men and women should translate into men being literal and not having much need for emotional connection. If you can give men such a pass, do women get one, too? Is there a way that women are different that affects a man's deepest needs that he must simply accept because her minor difference amounts to a large difference in what she will give in a relationship because she's a woman? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

Therealbrighteyes said:


> If the husband is "blindsided" by a WAW, her decision to exit the marriage is the correct one. It further shows how little he was paying attention.
> Again, *WAW is a wife who has expressed over and over what her needs are and was met with no change, she then decided to leave.* Not to be confused with a WW, who is sneaky, deceptive and anything but honest about her needs.


I have to disagree in my case Although I thought the possibility of my wife leaving was very real She would have never said a word except goodbye

55


----------



## AliceA

When someone speaks about how freaking awesome they were to their partner who left them (this partner who is apparently the spawn of the devil); how they're the best thing since sliced bread, I have to admit I feel there's an iceberg involved.

I say this because I've seen people who would never admit to any wrongdoing, where it's completely and utterly always someone else's fault; it's disturbing to see how they twist things in their own heads. This twisted perception won't allow them to see any personal fault, and therefore, they cannot (rather than 'will not', as I don't think they are capable of it) take any responsibility for anything that has happened in their lives.

For example, if you asked a narcissist if they were a narcissist, most would say 'no, of course not!'.


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## knobcreek

Let's get real this isn't about socks left on the floor or a dirty dish in the sink, or he's not doing his chores according to your standards. WAW's simply are bored, maybe their husbands put on some weight, lost their hair, having job problems, and well you think you can do better now. Like I said before, there's really nothing a dude can do to stop that.


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## Blondilocks

"Males are very literal. While women speak emotionally."

Literal has nothing to do with emotions. If a woman calmly says 'the house is on fire' or excitedly shouts 'the house is on fire', does that mean her man will only believe the calm statement? I don't think so. Otherwise, he'd risk his azz being on fire.

It appears some men are blaming the court system for their wives to have an opportunity to leave. Do you really want your wife to be a slave? 

When corporate America gets with the program and pays women at the same rate that they pay men, then you may see a change in the court system. Don't blame the courts for protecting your wife and children.

We're all familiar with the term 'selective hearing'. I think there is also 'selective memory'. I believe a person can be blindsided, but I also believe that the term is used inappropriately by a great number of people to gain sympathy. That may be a reason why they get so defensive during a convo - they are going to shout down those with suspicions.


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## turnera

Hardtohandle said:


> But I also have to live with what I posted above as well from my *walkaway wife.*.


HTH, I had hoped that, by now, you would have come to some clarity about your wife. She was NOT a walkaway wife. A walkaway wife is one who puts up with a lot of disappointment, neglect, and pain from her husband, for years and years, and then just stops loving him and gives up, and leaves.

NOTHING like your toxic, evil exwife. YOU know that. It's clear you're in pain, maybe because you and your gf just broke up and you feel right back where you were 3 years ago.

Maybe it's time for therapy again.



> Actually it IS what this thread is about. It is about WAWs. Hardtohandle had a WAW.


No, he didn't. He had a selfish, User wife who expected her husband to be all about her and who eventually left because she was done draining him. That is not at ALL the definition of a WAW.


----------



## turnera

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is on a lessor scale....I will call this a "Walk away girlfriend"... let me share some Blindsiding.... you make up your own minds...
> 
> Son felt deeply betrayed by the lies of these 2....double stab in the back there....yeah.. even if he made mistakes.. ya know.. a hard lesson.. for sure..


Again, SimplyAmorous, NOT a WAW/WAG. Not even close. 

This thread is about GOOD women who mean well and try to keep a marriage together despite the odds, and finally give up.

NOT a thread about b*tching about evil women who hurt good men.


----------



## turnera

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Aw. He'll do just fine SA. Has some wonderful role models to turn to. I'm not looking forward to the heartbreak times with my kids.
> 
> 
> Males are very literal. While women speak emotionally. And the two don't mix at all. You could rant and explain all you want, and it's like hitting a brick wall with a bat. It just won't make a dent.
> 
> I just don't get it. As a woman, to me, telling my H that I'm upset that he did/didn't do X is pretty literal and logical. It only became a problem when he _assumed _it was me being emotional and not that I'm actually, really saying something important.


I have literally said to my husband - at least five times in the last 3 years, with no tv on, no computer between us, looking at him straight in the eyes - "I NEED you to fix the hole in the ceiling that's been there for 10 years. I NEED you to caulk the kitchen counter because it's a gaping hole that water runs down and causes stinky mold. I NEED you to at least START to go through the 3-car garage that's filled to the ceiling with your stuff that you won't let ME touch, and start getting rid of things, so I can fit more than my lawnmower in there."

And he has AGREED to do it, all five times. I have a page-long list of things that have broken in our 4500-sq-ft 10-year-old house that he looks at and ignores. He has fixed two things: the auto-recoiling hose thing in the back yard (because he uses it to water the yard) and he covered up the hole in the ceiling (but never re-plastered it or painted it) - and that was only because his band has started practicing in that room and it embarrasses him. 

When I finally get the courage to leave, he will claim he was blindsided. But we both know he's lying. He just didn't care.


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## OpenWindows

knobcreek said:


> Let's get real this isn't about socks left on the floor or a dirty dish in the sink, or he's not doing his chores according to your standards. WAW's simply are bored, maybe their husbands put on some weight, lost their hair, having job problems, and well you think you can do better now. Like I said before, there's really nothing a dude can do to stop that.


That's exactly what many of our husbands thought. They were wrong.

My XH believed I left because I wanted to sleep with other people. He was confused when I waited a year to start dating. He was even more confused when I started dating a guy who weighed more and had less hair.


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## turnera

Rugby said:


> Based on the responses given to my contribution to this thread, it is apparent that most of you are confusing your personal experiences, which are entirely anectdotal, with the phenomenon of the WAW. Each individual relationship represents only one data point and has its own idiosyncratic causal mechanisms. The OP's husband could in deed be derelict in his marital responsibilities. With that said, the phenomenon of the WAW, as evidenced by women comprising over 70 percent of all divorce petitioners in the US, is a function of bigger, broader sweeping causal mechanisms, such as statitorial divorce/family law, which nearly always favors women, societal mores, and the current unsubstatiated rhetoric that men are generally insensitive and lazy as compared to women.
> 
> As I stated before, bring some semblance of equality to the courts, which would increase women's skin in the game that is marriage, and there will be much more parity in terms of which spouse petitions for divorce. There are just as many $hitty wives as there are husbands. I work in a technical field that requires extensive travel, with roughly half of my colleagues being high paid women. Given their positions of authority and above average earnings, none must rely on a man or anyone else to support them. Accordingly, there is no substantive difference in the rates of infidelity while on the road, abuses of power in the workplace, or any other form of bad behavior. About half my colleagues are good spouses and the others are not, irrespective of gender.
> 
> Applying one's anectdotal experience to explain a cultural phenomenon is not only a basic logic flaw, it is dangerous as it perpetuates false notions masquerading as facts. Marriage is in no way trivial, particulary when children are involved. Hence, those that endeavor to marry should give the institution its proper due before they consider abandoning it. It sounds like the OP did that, so I commend her for exiting an untenable situation. However, her situation is just that. It is her situation, which neither represents greater society nor constitutes a catch all example of every WAW scenario. Women leave marriage in greater numbers than men because the legal system is less punitive toward them. At a societal level, men and women contribute equally to the demise of marriages. To suggest otherwise is to infer that women are inherently more honest, patient, helpful, caring, considerate, etc., etc., etc., an assertion which has no basis in fact.


And...again, absolutely NOTHING to do with the phenomemon of the wife who DOES ask for parity IN the marriage and doesn't get it and eventually leaves.

Only griping about those who abuse the marriage system.


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## turnera

knobcreek said:


> Let's get real this isn't about socks left on the floor or a dirty dish in the sink, or he's not doing his chores according to your standards. WAW's simply are bored, maybe their husbands put on some weight, lost their hair, having job problems, and well you think you can do better now. Like I said before, there's really nothing a dude can do to stop that.


:rofl:

I'm bored because I do 95% of the housework (including picking up socks probably at least 20,000 times in the past 35 years)? It's ME who put on weight, my H is still gorgeous and hit on at least once a month. He has thicker hair than I do, and he's 61. He started a company and works with celebrities and millionaires now.

Nice try.


----------



## TNC

Respectfully, a cheating wife is different than a WAW. Because I could put myself in the WAW category, but not the cheating category. I get that you can be both...but I don't think this thread was about the cheating wives.


----------



## TNC

This isn't necessarily relevant, but just an example of how a wife can feel like she isn't taken seriously.

During a conversation with my husband a few weeks ago, he said he remembers the exact moment I started to pull away, and when he said the time frame, he was 100% correct.

AND YET WHEN I TALKED TO HIM ABOUT MY FEELINGS MONTHS LATER, he acted like he was blindsided. So, he knew I was struggling, but HE was happy, so everything was fine. 

THAT is why you have WAW's. 

Also, and I am only speaking for myself. When you have a husband who doesn't want to go anywhere with the family, doesn't want to participate in things outside of the home, and you are basically by yourself (with the kids) all the time..you get to a point,at least I did, where it was like..what do I need him for?? And then little by little you stop nagging and asking and the wall is being built up higher and higher....


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## TNC

OpenWindows said:


> That's exactly what many of our husbands thought. They were wrong.
> 
> My XH believed I left because I wanted to sleep with other people. He was confused when I waited a year to start dating. He was even more confused when I started dating a guy who weighed more and had less hair.


Mine thinks this too!!! It's so irritating!!!!


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## Satya

We teach others how to treat us. Unfortunately, good wives try too hard to rewrite the laws of psychology. You can't nice your way to getting a husband or bf to see your way of thinking, in my experience. Just as a guy can't nice his way to a woman's attraction. You have to present your case and be willing to follow through. You have to remember you always have options. 

Both my ex H of 13 years and an 8 month long bf could not hear me any time I asked for things kindly. I eventually came to resent each in a different way. So, when I met my SO, he'd been out of a relationship for over a year. Thing is, his house still had some of his ex's stuff in it. It didn't mean anything, he just hadn't gotten around to clearing it out. They'd had a long relationship. Our relationship was progressing and he wanted to invite me to his home for the first time. 

I vividly remember walking along the beach with him on a lunch break, and I said, "There's no way I'll set foot in your house until your ex's stuff is gone." Que excuses about why her stuff didn't mean anything, how he has no time to clean, etc.... Then I said, "She's no longer in your life and if you want to make room for me, that's your choice. You can decide if or when you clear it, but I'm not going to wait around forever to have a clean slate with you." The look on his face... And he's usually a pokerface. Then we parted ways so we could both get back to work, and in 3 days her shyt was completely gone and I visited this house for the first time and cooked us a meal. He knew I was dead serious, and I was.

I like to think I have elements of a good woman, I was in fact, a much sweeter and selfless woman when I was younger. Life has toughened me up a bit. I dislike seeing the sexes at war over anything, but after being a nearly WAW to my first H, I know the things I do and will do differently. WAWdom is not only the man's fault. My number one fault was to cave in about the things important to me. I think good wives do this too often until they're fed up.


----------



## TNC

Satya said:


> We teach others how to treat us. Unfortunately, good wives try too hard to rewrite the laws of psychology. You can't nice your way to getting a husband or bf to see your way of thinking, in my experience. Just as a guy can't nice his way to a woman's attraction. You have to present your case and be willing to follow through. You have to remember you always have options.
> 
> Both my ex H of 13 years and an 8 month long bf could not hear me any time I asked for things kindly. I eventually came to resent each in a different way. So, when I met my SO, he'd been out of a relationship for over a year. Thing is, his house still had some of his ex's stuff in it. It didn't mean anything, he just hadn't gotten around to clearing it out. They'd had a long relationship. Our relationship was progressing and he wanted to invite me to his home for the first time.
> 
> I vividly remember walking along the beach with him on a lunch break, and I said, "There's no way I'll set foot in your house until your ex's stuff is gone." Que excuses about why her stuff didn't mean anything, how he has no time to clean, etc.... Then I said, "She's no longer in your life and if you want to make room for me, that's your choice. You can decide if or when you clear it, but I'm not going to wait around forever to have a clean slate with you." The look on his face... And he's usually a pokerface. Then we parted ways so we could both get back to work, and in 3 days her shyt was completely gone and I visited this house for the first time and cooked us a meal. He knew I was dead serious, and I was.
> 
> I like to think I have elements of a good woman, I was in fact, a much sweeter and selfless woman when I was younger. Life has toughened me up a bit. I dislike seeing the sexes at war over anything, but after being a nearly WAW to my first H, I know the things I do and will do differently. WAWdom is not only the man's fault. My number one fault was to cave in about the things important to me. I think good wives do this too often until they're fed up.


I absolutely agree. I was 21 when I met him and 35 now, I am not willing to put up with crap like I did in my 20's.


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## OpenWindows

When I left my husband, I spent a lot time reflecting on where I had gone wrong. I know I share the blame for our marriage ending. I married young (we started dating when I was 19, married at 22). I had a lot of optimistic and foolish assumptions about marriage. 

When I married him, I knew I would be taking care of him throughout our marriage, and I thought I was okay with that. I didn't understand how my feelings would change about that. That's on me.

When my feelings did start to change, he didn't change with me. And we both avoid conflict by nature, so I would back down too easily when I felt bad for hurting his feelings by being upset with him. I should have fought harder, and that's also on me.

I thought I was doing the right thing by swallowing my unhappiness so he could be happy. I thought that was what I was meant to do in life. I wasn't prepared for how that would affect me long-term.

And when it really did affect me badly, and I tried to communicate that to him, his conflict-avoiding nature told him to ignore the problem and wait for me to fix it, because I was his "fixer". But I couldn't fix this one by myself, and acknowledging that was one of the most difficult things I've ever done.

Any time i complained, he would do what he needed to in order to quiet me down, but he didn't really deal with the problems, he just slapped a temporary band-aid on them. He didn't believe I was in pain until I walked out the door. And by then, I had absolutely no trust that he would try harder, because he had spent a decade making and breaking that promise.


----------



## Satya

OpenWindows, that's very much the kinds of feelings I processed as well in my first marriage. Women really are not taught that there should be reasonable limits on empathy and giving. We just think that it's our role. Naturally, yes, but like all things, there's a level of reasonableness to consider. 

The kind of WAW this thread is about (I think) is the kind that unknowingly works to perpetuate her own eventual unhappiness. The man might have messed up plenty as well, but in a way, she allowed it, ignored it, thought it would go away. 

It's a really tough but important lesson to learn, especially when you're younger and see the world through a totally different lens.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I had also fallen into the trap of give, give, give when I first met H. I pampered him. Then I had my daughter really quickly and took 14 months of mat leave so I was a SAHM, of course I did all the chores and the looking after the kids. 

It's when I went back to work that things didn't even out. 

Some real examples of ways I tried to express it.

I feel disrespected when you don't do your share of the work around here.
I really need your help, I am feeling very overwhelmed
H- I NEED you to clean up your mess in the living room today. 
Made chore charts giving him free reign to pick whichever ones he wanted and put it on the fridge
H- If you can do do half the house cleaning I will leave
I left a note on the counter "baby, I'm so dirty. Please get me wet and do me. Signed- The dishes"
Please H, if you can just clean the living room it would be a huge help.

And yes, there were moments in between when I was angry, crying, emotional. It's so frustrating to not be heard no matter what you do. To get "sure, babe" and "I'm sorry hun, you're right. I am not pulling my weight here. I'll start fixing that" and then he doesn't. Then I get "Wife, we already discussed this. Why do you keep wanting to fight about the same thing over and over again?"
Ummm... cause the f-ing livingroom didn't get cleaned?!

To him solving the issue = stopping me from being upset in the moment. I shut up for a bit to wait for him to follow through, he thinks yay, problem solved. Then when I bring it up again, I'm a nag and always wants to start fights and keep arguing about the same things over and over again. 

And that's just the household chores portion of my WAW experience. We also had he spends too much money (which we fixed by me just taking what the house needs out of his bank the morning he gets paid and he can do what he wants with the rest)
Not enough sex. 
And a bunch of smaller things that I eventually let go because I had to pick my battles and drop whatever wasn't a hill to die on.


----------



## Lila

knobcreek said:


> Let's get real this isn't about socks left on the floor or a dirty dish in the sink, or he's not doing his chores according to your standards. WAW's simply are bored, maybe their husbands put on some weight, lost their hair, having job problems, and well you think you can do better now. Like I said before, there's really nothing a dude can do to stop that.


:lol::rofl:

I would have been the poster child for WAW had my husband continued to not take my concerns seriously. Oh, and my concerns had nothing to do with boredom,lacking looks, or screwed up career. 

He's one of those blessed guys that gets better looking with age. Yes, he's lost some of his hair, but he looks like a freaking bada$$ with the bigger muscles, shaved head, and beard; and he's got a _very_ lucrative career in the engineering industry. Physically and financially speaking, I probably would never do better than him. But I'd rather have the 'ugly' (subjectively speaking), average income man who makes me a priority than a 'good looking', well-off man who puts me last.


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## just got it 55

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Aw. He'll do just fine SA. Has some wonderful role models to turn to. I'm not looking forward to the heartbreak times with my kids.
> 
> 
> Males are very literal. While women speak emotionally. And the two don't mix at all. You could rant and explain all you want, and it's like hitting a brick wall with a bat. It just won't make a dent.
> 
> I just don't get it. As a woman, to me, telling my H that I'm upset that he did/didn't do X is pretty literal and logical. It only became a problem when he _assumed _it was me being emotional and not that I'm actually, really saying something important.
> 
> Don't think I'm jumping on you, I agree that there is a big difference in how people communicate and hear. I just don't think I'll ever understand the men's side and how my H could hear me rant and explain and just not get it.
> 
> Maybe if more men could look at their wives words as literal and logical and not just emotional they would hear them better?
> 
> What would you suggest as a way to get through to men of WAWs?


If those men truly don't get it They are going to have to learn the hard way

As long as there is clear communication and maybe the help of MC

It's on the H

55


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knobcreek said:


> Let's get real this isn't about socks left on the floor or a dirty dish in the sink, or he's not doing his chores according to your standards. WAW's simply are bored, maybe their husbands put on some weight, lost their hair, having job problems, and well you think you can do better now. Like I said before, there's really nothing a dude can do to stop that.


Yep, you got me. I was bored with having to constantly nag him to do basic adult tasks. He didn't change in his appearance but I started to see him as a rebellious teenager that I had to Mommy, might as well be 500 pounds at that point because that's just as attractive and yes, I started to think I could do a lot better than a man who couldn't meet the very basic level of household needs, let alone getting into meeting my personal ones. 

But some guys will always throw up their hands and claim "I wasn't me" and not see the real problem.

You can't even imagine how many times my H thought I must be cheating when it got really bad. I mean, why else would I be so ready to just leave? Why else could I have possibly fell out of love with him? You don't divorce because I didn't clean the livingroom. Well yes, you do. Eventually. When you've been so ignored, so disrespected, so taken for granted, so fed up for so long, you do.


----------



## TNC

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Yep, you got me. I was bored with having to constantly nag him to do basic adult tasks. He didn't change in his appearance but I started to see him as a rebellious teenager that I had to Mommy, might as well be 500 pounds at that point because that's just as attractive and yes, I started to think I could do a lot better than a man who couldn't meet the very basic level of household needs, let alone getting into meeting my personal ones.
> 
> But some guys will always throw up their hands and claim "I wasn't me" and not see the real problem.
> 
> You can't even imagine how many times my H thought I must be cheating when it got really bad. I mean, why else would I be so ready to just leave? Why else could I have possibly fell out of love with him? You don't divorce because I didn't clean the livingroom. Well yes, you do. Eventually. When you've been so ignored, so disrespected, so taken for granted, so fed up for so long, you do.


Yesssssss!

And it's not about the cleaning. It's about the fact that they clearly don't give a sh*t if something is important to you because they aren't listening.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Some of the responses to this thread are mind blowing. A wife comes here to talk about why she left her marriage, what happened and what could have been done to prevent the demise of her marriage. Others have stated similar. Personal stories and experiences about a painful subject, the ending of a marriage due to neglect by theirs husbands. Instead of empathy and compassion, many of the responses have been insults and vitriol stating these wives are cheaters, liars, gold diggers, grass is greener syndrome, looking to trade up because some mythical timeline tells them to or boredom. 

I have to ask, if a husband came here with a post stating that he left his marriage because his wife no longer cared about him, showed him he mattered or did the very basic things he asked of her, would the same responders call him a cheater, liar and the other insults? If not, perhaps some inner reflection is warranted as to why you feel that way about women, women whom you have never met, isn't personal to you in any way and yet respond to in such a manner.


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## knobcreek

It's funny because I do all the yard-work, most of the laundry, cooking, cleaning, etc... my wife is a slob, she comes home kicks her heels off, tosses her bags on the floor, clothes on the floor to get into sweats, I walk around picking it all up. Do I complain sometimes? Yes. Would I ever divorce the mother of my children that I swore before God to stay with for that? No way...

At the end of the day I have a much higher capacity for work than my wife, I just do, I require less sleep and I can work without ceasing and I don't complain about hard work. I just accept it as a flaw of hers and move on, I have plenty too.

This is where either men and women are different, or the court system and the advantages women have allow them to divorce over such trivial reasons. I still think it goes back to being bored and wanting new experiences, and since they can take half the husbands wealth, the house, car, kids, etc... they really lose nothing in the divorce.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

RoseAglow said:


> *SA, I was a lot like your son's ex-girlfriend when I was younger. I would have some gripes that I considered minor, I'd focus instead on how much I loved my partner and would try to ignore the "minor" issues. Then one day, there was a final straw and I was just DONE. It seemed to come out of nowhere. I'd have gone from being madly in love to ice queen in a matter of hours. I did this twice, once after a year with the fella, and once after three years.
> 
> It made me think that something was wrong with me, that I just wasnt relationship material. And I was not relationship material at the time! But it wasn't that something was wrong with me; I just didn't have the knowledge or relationship skills to realize what was happening*.


 Thank you for Sharing this @RoseAglow ... it helps ME understand more of HER SIDE....as frankly... son has had to EAT THIS with very little closure... oh she wanted to remain his friend.. but I can surely understand he couldn't do that... so they ended up blocking each other.

He hates her but still loves her too, he admits she was still worth it -even with what she did.... which I want so so so bad for him to get over her. 

The closest thing to closure he got was stopping over her house days afterwards - thankfully it was just the 2 of them.. I guess she was crying pretty bad saying over & over how she hated herself.. that she is messed up, she can't talk to anyone about it, they don't know her...... he was there for maybe 2 - 3 hrs ... when he came home , he shared how he was REALLY WORRIED about her...this was his biggest concern...he wanted to help her.. but she wouldn't let him.....

I believe she was grasping how she hurt him.. she KNEW she blindsided him BADLY.... but still she had to move on.. she hated that it happened but she finally had to do it for herself.. 

This so called friend of sons will treat her like GOLD, worship the ground she walks on.... she didn't go onto the arms of a jack a** even though I despise how he, too, handled this... while acting like a good friend...He has no idea HOW MUCH our son looked up to him before this...he felt he was the greatest guy he's ever met in his life.. I'll never forget how he went on about him.... what I seen there was -he wanted his woman...he did what he could do to ease into their lives... it worked beautifully.. I expect these 2 will marry & have babies someday... 

I don't want son mourning his stupidity the rest of his life.. he fully expected to marry this girl. Seeing our love story work out from our teens...probably not such a good thing.. 

I was very graceful to her in the aftermath...I even thanked her for being such a devoted girlfriend when she was with him.. 

It's hard for me to relate to this mindset.. cause I am someone who can't suck up when I am not feeling it.. I wear my







on my sleeve (also my irritation).. It's going to come out of the mouth & we're going to discuss it.. or I'd explode... I'm confrontational, not passive.. 



> *I had two issues going on. The first was that I didn't believe that it was wise to ask for changes, because I had a belief that guys would not change, and if they did change because you asked them to, it would cause resentment. Therefore my strategy was to accept that I wasn't going to like everything, so I'd stick around for as long as I was happy. (I had zero interest in getting married at that point, mostly because I couldn't see any possible long-term happiness in it, based on this belief*.)


 Interesting.. this girl wanted to get married.. literally every letter she wrote ... which I didn't mention... she signed it with his last name...as though Yes.. she would be his wife someday.. this did not help! I noticed the Graduation note she didn't sign his last name.. Hmmm that was a 1st.. she was already gone at that point....just trying to figure out how to lay the bomb.. 



> The other issue is that I had no understanding of emotional needs, or the idea that people have "giver" and "taker" qualities, and they need to be balanced out.* Today, I realize that in both situations, I simply had moments where I'd "given" too much, and the "taker" side said "Time to lose this chump. This relationship has played out." *


 Yes.. I felt she gave MORE during that last year.... she made more effort to come see him.. things like that... This is what happens.. 
Men Be wise..



> *I think those two exes of mine would relate to your son. As far as they knew, things were going great and then I just turned on them. One of them in particular was very bitter.* At the time, I didn't care at all. As far as I was concerned, I was a kick ass girlfriend for as long as he deserved it. If I was a crap girlfriend, I fully expected him to dump me, so I didn't think he had any cause to complain when he got dumped for whatever it was that put me over the line. They simply should have known better, in my eyes. I was very immature, even into my late 20s/early 30s.


 Son was very BITTER....this didn't manifest until the rebound he threw himself into blew up...(something else I warned him not to do!) ... then he faced his dilemma that he was NOT over her...only to hurt this other girl he dragged into this.......then she felt betrayed..

Somehow these 2 managed to stay good friends... for a time WE all felt he needed counseling... he refused.. he lost his optimism.. he's slowly coming back.. we have heart to hearts every so often..I'm thankful he talks to me.. I used to think Young love was sweet.. but now I see another side entirely and I want to shield my children from this pain .



> I don't know if the ex-gf has some whacked ideas like mine, I'm just posting them because it is possible to be so clueless that you don't know that you're losing your love for someone, and then suddenly that emotional love bank is depleted, and the taker is making the decision to terminate.


she did share with me -when I mentioned the other guy - that HE helped her see that something was wrong with her life... Nice.. that my son was no good & he was perfect for her -- Yes of course. Had this friend at least once went to our son & said ..."Look.. I see you & ____ are having some problems.. I'm going to be honest with you.. I am starting to have feelings for her.. but you are my friend... you need to talk to her..work this out"... but NO.. he was just there for her.. 

I don't respect that.. I'm sorry - he was their Youth Group leader.. Had he showed enough respect to our son to do THAT.. I wouldn't have a word to say against this guy.. not a word.. 

Sorry for rambling about all of this.. Love, friendship & relationships are STICKY ! 



> But I agree with your post. Sure, my exes should have known better than to ditch me on his birthday to hang with his fellas, or whatever it was. And I should have been more self-aware and more vocal. Such is life as teenagers and young adults, I think. If we were taught relationship skills early on, it would help.


 I do try to teach our sons .. but even he was "defensive" when I went to him-before it all blew up.. what can we do. I sincerely tried ... we can lead them to water but we can't make them drink... 



> I do think that most walk-away wives attempt to communicate with their husbands, though. It's one thing to walk away from a dating relationship, and quite another to walk away from a marriage, especially if kids are involved. *You see it on TAM all the time: the bewildered husband says that the wife was telling him that she was unhappy, but he just didn't realize how serious it was. If he'd known his serious she was, he would have made changes. They believed, like the poster above, that if she was nagging and threatening divorce, and he wasn't listening, then it was the wife's problem. *I recall a thread from a while ago discussing the idea that women were poor communicators, because the men weren't getting the message until the wives walked. They acknowledged that the women had in fact said things, but had not made a strong enough case.


 Yes.. I have seen this a # of times.. it's a shame.. yes. 



> There is some truth in both, I think. We need to alter the cultural mores *to encourage husbands to take their wives complaints seriously. and we need to teach women to be more vocal and push for resolution early*.


 I feel one of the reasons myself & H has have very few issues , our communication is wonderful (other than we missed it sexually in some areas) .. as he's never been one to blow me off.. he sincerely CARES HOW I FEEL.. and I've never been one to stuff my feelings. I put them out there.. & we resolve ...



> One major hallmark of a WAW is that she is worn out and depleted by the time she leaves. Too much damage has been done for her to take back her husband, even if he's willing to make changes. If she'd pushed the issues early on, maybe there would be something left for rebuilding. But it's counter-intuitive and counter-cultural to do this, we believe we need to stick it out as long as possible. *We need to teach real communication and conflict resolution skills.* All of these things would take a major change in our 1st world, Western mores.


 All for that. ... absolutely...


----------



## just got it 55

THE SIMPLE SOLUTION IS THIS:

Wife: I am not happy I have discussed this /these issues over and over and you have not heard a word or if you did you have not acted on them.

Husband: I thought I have been I don't know what you want.

Wife: If you want to save this marriage and you feel that I am not being clear Hear This

MC now get to our issues with an MC guiding our dialog

If not I am out Gone never to return.

Clear enough? 


The rest is on him If the wife's demands are unreasonable (In His Mind) and he is in a position that he doesn't want to live with it that's his boundary and his choice to let her go.

55


----------



## TNC

knobcreek said:


> It's funny because I do all the yard-work, most of the laundry, cooking, cleaning, etc... my wife is a slob, she comes home kicks her heels off, tosses her bags on the floor, clothes on the floor to get into sweats, I walk around picking it all up. Do I complain sometimes? Yes. Would I ever divorce the mother of my children that I swore before God to stay with for that? No way...
> 
> At the end of the day I have a much higher capacity for work than my wife, I just do, I require less sleep and I can work without ceasing and I don't complain about hard work. I just accept it as a flaw of hers and move on, I have plenty too.
> 
> This is where either men and women are different, or the court system and the advantages women have allow them to divorce over such trivial reasons. I still think it goes back to being bored and wanting new experiences, and since they can take half the husbands wealth, the house, car, kids, etc... they really lose nothing in the divorce.


Again, it isn't about you being better at housework. Respectfully, you have missed the point. If you asked your wife repeatedly to help or be less slobby, and she said "okay I will" but then NEVER did...THAT's when the resentment builds. If you are okay with doing those things that's fine! It's about asking for something and never receiving it. 

And I'm planning on leaving my family home and moving into a tiny apartment. My family has no money, his has tons. I'm not asking for alimony, or even child support. I'm asking for nothing and will suffer financially. I'm taking a higher percentage of our debt... so not every woman divorces thinking she gets off easy. That's simply untrue.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knobcreek said:


> It's funny because I do all the yard-work, most of the laundry, cooking, cleaning, etc... my wife is a slob, she comes home kicks her heels off, tosses her bags on the floor, clothes on the floor to get into sweats, I walk around picking it all up. Do I complain sometimes? Yes. Would I ever divorce the mother of my children that I swore before God to stay with for that? No way...
> 
> At the end of the day I have a much higher capacity for work than my wife, I just do, I require less sleep and I can work without ceasing and I don't complain about hard work. I just accept it as a flaw of hers and move on, I have plenty too.
> 
> This is where either men and women are different, or the court system and the advantages women have allow them to divorce over such trivial reasons. I still think it goes back to being bored and wanting new experiences, and since they can take half the husbands wealth, the house, car, kids, etc... they really lose nothing in the divorce.


How do you feel when your wife goes out with her gal pals and flirts with men all night? Disrespected? Not listened to? 
Or do you just accept it as a flaw of hers and oh well, I'd never divorce over it. She can just do what she wants.
Everyone has their own limits, boundaries, hills to die on. Just because chores isn't one of yours doesn't mean it's any more or less valid than girls nights are to you. 

Or are you just bored and looking to upgrade to a newer, younger model because who would divorce over something so silly like a little harmless flirting and going out with friends? 

Can't you look any deeper at how it makes people feel when they express how hurt they are by their spouse's behavior and they don't stop it? How you feel like you must not matter that much to them anyway? How disrespectful it is?

Women get half the marital assets, not her "husband's". Half of what is both of theirs. That means you also get half. That means both are a half shorter than what they were before, they both lose. They both need to support 2 households with what used to all go to one. Stop playing victim.


----------



## Cosmos

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Some of the responses to this thread are mind blowing. A wife comes here to talk about why she left her marriage, what happened and what could have been done to prevent the demise of her marriage. Others have stated similar. Personal stories and experiences about a painful subject, the ending of a marriage due to neglect by theirs husbands. Instead of empathy and compassion, many of the responses have been insults and vitriol stating these wives are cheaters, liars, gold diggers, grass is greener syndrome, looking to trade up because some mythical timeline tells them to or boredom.
> 
> I have to ask, if a husband came here with a post stating that he left his marriage because his wife no longer cared about him, showed him he mattered or did the very basic things he asked of her, would the same responders call him a cheater, liar and the other insults? If not, perhaps some inner reflection is warranted as to why you feel that way about women, women whom you have never met, isn't personal to you in any way and yet respond to in such a manner.


It's always the same, TRBE...

If this thread was about a guy whose physical needs were being totally ignored by his W, he would be inundated with empathy and, in all probability, be told that no one could blame him if he cheated on her.


----------



## ocotillo

knobcreek said:


> Let's get real this isn't about socks left on the floor or a dirty dish in the sink, or he's not doing his chores according to your standards.


If I understand the phenomenon correctly (Not saying I do...) those are only the symptoms of the problem:

(The speaker here is Michele Weiner-Davis)



> "When a woman feels close to her husband, all is right in the world. However, if the marriage takes a back seat to other commitments.....She begins to find fault with many other aspects of their relationship. He hears, “If I had known what kind of father you’d be, I never would have had children with you,” or “What can’t you pick up after yourself? You’re just like one of the kids.”


----------



## john117

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I have to ask, if a husband came here with a post stating that he left his marriage because his wife no longer cared about him, showed him he mattered or did the very basic things he asked of her, would the same responders call him a cheater, liar and the other insults?


Not to worry. I am that person and was actually called worse by the peanut gallery...

The peanut gallery isn't very good collectively in formulating responses... Individual tidbits, yes, but overall collectivethink gets in the way of rationality.

I gotta ask, if divorce laws didn't favor women as much, would 20,000 instances of sock pickup feature so prominently as divorce causes?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

john117 said:


> Not to worry. I am that person and was actually called worse bybthe peanut gallery...


I am sorry you had to go through that, this is supposed to be a safe place of support.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

turnera said:


> Again, SimplyAmorous, NOT a WAW/WAG. Not even close.
> 
> This thread is about GOOD women who mean well and try to keep a marriage together despite the odds, and finally give up.
> 
> NOT a thread about b*tching about evil women who hurt good men.


I felt what I had to share could shed some light ... It find it rather insulting that you find what I have to say just *****ing.. 

I wasn't trying to take anything away from the opening post at all... in fact It was very well written & I agreed this IS exactly what happens.. I even said it should be a sticky -if you didn't catch that....

Spawning son's story...RoseAglow shared how it played out for her... it happens all the time.. Yes.. good woman.. Son's girlfriend wasn't evil either ... but in the aftermath, it's hard to rectify it, due to the pain... 

MEN SHOULD BEWARE... 

Whether it's a girlfriend or a wife.. it's still a relationship.. There was still blindsiding..


----------



## john117

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I am sorry you had to go through that, this is supposed to be a safe place of support.


Thanks - I did see the light eventually, yet said peanut gallery still had kittens with my approach . All my fault, the works.

At least my cat likes me.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Cosmos said:


> It's always the same, TRBE...
> 
> If this thread was about a guy whose physical needs were being totally ignored by his W, he would be inundated with empathy and, in all probability, be told that no one could blame him if he cheated on her.


Yep, and that she planned it that way, maliciously, to trap him. 

No one talks about how a man must have just been looking for a maid and a chef so he tricked and trapped one into marrying him so he could use her. 

When a man is disrespected, it's a huge deal. It's his masculinity on the line. She's a horrible person for not respecting him. He should demand respect and leave if he doesn't get it. 

When a woman is disrespected we're being trivial, emotional, bored, using our advantage in court to our favour. 

To many, our needs and wants are just not seen with as much importance or validation. 

Some men, even here on TAM, think that if a man works he is already doing his job and that should be enough to sustain us and make us want to meet his needs. 

Our silly little needs like time together, date nights, being listened to, paid attention to, sharing of the household duties are "fairy tales" and unreasonable. Women "nag" because that's just what us women do. Oh, we will just never be happy. 

But regular, enthusiastic sex (with a woman who's needs you don't meet and who's attraction level to you is the same as a child she has to parent) is totally reasonable and divorce-worthy if they don't get it.


----------



## MattMatt

Also there can be a problem with what the other spouse sees as hypocrisy.

My wife doesn't like me to swear. And I do swear. A lot.

She expressed her concern one day saying: "I wish you would stop your f**king swearing!"

My wife comes from a military family and swears litke a trooper herself...

Pardon me if I ignore this concern of hers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lila

knobcreek said:


> It's funny because I do all the yard-work, most of the laundry, cooking, cleaning, etc... my wife is a slob, she comes home kicks her heels off, tosses her bags on the floor, clothes on the floor to get into sweats, I walk around picking it all up. Do I complain sometimes? Yes. Would I ever divorce the mother of my children that I swore before God to stay with for that? No way...
> 
> At the end of the day I have a much higher capacity for work than my wife, I just do, I require less sleep and I can work without ceasing and I don't complain about hard work. I just accept it as a flaw of hers and move on, I have plenty too.
> 
> This is where either men and women are different, or the court system and the advantages women have allow them to divorce over such trivial reasons. *I still think it goes back to being bored and wanting new experiences, and since they can take half the husbands wealth, the house, car, kids, etc... they really lose nothing in the divorce*.


{sigh} Like you, I work full-time in a lucrative career field AND do _all_ of the housekeeping, cooking, and laundry for a slobbish spouse. My beef was not the chores, or the cooking, or "wanting new experiences". It was not being a priority in my husband's life. 

Yes, my husband would have lost seeing his child everyday, but he would have lost nothing financially in a divorce. At my salary, most judges would laugh me out of the courthouse if I demanded alimony from him. 

But....
He would have lost having someone to clean up after him, to cook and serve his meals, and to clean and press his clothes;
He would have lost having a lover who knows his most intimate sexual desires; and
He would have lost a companion to share in life's highest and lowest moments.

See, it's not all about money. There's actually a very human component to marriage. But I have a feeling that you won't ever believe this.


----------



## CopperTop

Cosmos said:


> It's always the same, TRBE...
> 
> If this thread was about a guy whose physical needs were being totally ignored by his W, he would be inundated with empathy and, in all probability, be told that no one could blame him if he cheated on her.


Actually, he is mostly told he is a loser, weak and codependent.


----------



## OpenWindows

MattMatt said:


> Also there can be a problem with what the other spouse sees as hypocrisy.
> 
> My wife doesn't like me to swear. And I do swear. A lot.
> 
> She expressed her concern one day saying: "I wish you would stop your f**king swearing!"
> 
> My wife comes from a military family and swears litke a trooper herself...
> 
> Pardon me if I ignore this concern of hers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why do you ignore it instead of pointing out the hypocrisy? 

If you explain, she knows you disagree. If you ignore her, she thinks you don't care.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

john117 said:


> Not to worry. I am that person and was actually called worse by the peanut gallery...
> 
> The peanut gallery isn't very good collectively in formulating responses... Individual tidbits, yes, but overall collectivethink gets in the way of rationality.
> 
> I gotta ask, if divorce laws didn't favor women as much, would 20,000 instances of sock pickup feature so prominently as divorce causes?


I am not going down the rabbit hole of divorce law and my thoughts on the matter.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

john117 said:


> I gotta ask, if divorce laws didn't favor women as much, would 20,000 instances of sock pickup feature so prominently as divorce causes?


and I gotta ask, if men really feared divorce so much and got so scr*wed over, would they really leave 20,000 socks laying around for his fed up wife to pick up after him after she has asked time and time again that he stop? 

Like Lila, my H has/had a lot more to lose in a divorce than I do. I can support myself, my life is pretty self-sufficient being that I do everything (even household repairs) I wouldn't get a cent from him, and yet I still refuse to settle for a man who can't be an adult. 

And John, IIRC you got heck from the gallery because you CAN leave, you choose to stay because you need your wife's money to help support your adult children through school. You also have a very high end lifestyle that you could downgrade if you wanted to. You were getting the backlash of people who don't believe in staying with someone you don't love because you need money/lifestyle, not the reasons why you want to leave. I'm pretty sure everyone agreed with why you want to leave. It was the why you DON'T that got people ranting at you.


----------



## RoseAglow

Satya said:


> I think good wives do this too often until they're fed up.





OpenWindows said:


> And we both avoid conflict by nature, so I would back down too easily when I felt bad for hurting his feelings by being upset with him. I should have fought harder, and that's also on me.
> 
> I thought I was doing the right thing by swallowing my unhappiness so he could be happy. I thought that was what I was meant to do in life. I wasn't prepared for how that would affect me long-term.
> 
> And when it really did affect me badly, and I tried to communicate that to him, his conflict-avoiding nature told him to ignore the problem and wait for me to fix it, because I was his "fixer". But I couldn't fix this one by myself, and acknowledging that was one of the most difficult things I've ever done.
> 
> Any time i complained, he would do what he needed to in order to quiet me down, but he didn't really deal with the problems, he just slapped a temporary band-aid on them. He didn't believe I was in pain until I walked out the door. And by then, I had absolutely no trust that he would try harder, because he had spent a decade making and breaking that promise.





Satya said:


> Women really are not taught that there should be reasonable limits on empathy and giving. We just think that it's our role. Naturally, yes, but like all things, there's a level of reasonableness to consider.
> 
> The kind of WAW this thread is about (I think) is the kind that unknowingly works to perpetuate her own eventual unhappiness. The man might have messed up plenty as well, but in a way, she allowed it, ignored it, thought it would go away.
> 
> It's a really tough but important lesson to learn, especially when you're younger and see the world through a totally different lens.


Part of our cultural story about relationships is that "Everone needs to sacrifice to make a marriage work", and so both men and women over-extend. This thread is about WAWs, but you see the same basic over-giving in "Nice Guys", using the TAM/covet contract meaning of the phrase. In both cases, the WAW/NG are over-giving, they are following the rule of sacrifice, they are living out the directive that to love someone is to give continuously. It breeds resentment for both WAWs and NGs, but there are different outcomes, generally speaking. I go back to my theory that with NGs, their wives are probably meeting a few of the NGs top emotional needs, even if accidentally, so the NGs continue on indefinitely. The WAW isn't getting any of her top emotional needs met, so she falls completely out of love and eventually is just done.

I think we need to change the cultural story. Sacrifice, where one spouse gains at the expense of the other, should be very rare, and certainly not encouraged as a primary aspect of marriage. I think we need to teach people how to negotiate to find the win-win. It sounds simple but just that item would require other changes, like the idea that it's wrong to ask somebody to change, and it takes a direct hit on the idea that spouses should love each other unconditionally, which is a deep belief. 

I think the big issue with WAWs is that they keep going far too long. Because we are taught to keep going until there is nothing left, by the time they take definitive action to leave, they are totally spent. They have zero trust in the other spouse. 

If the story changes to one where marriage is a relationship where both spouses agree to provide extraordinary care and to meet the others emotional needs, it becomes clearer earlier on when things are not working out. It becomes clearer on how to maintain a healthy relationship. And if someone does choose to leave because their needs aren't being met, hopefully they are leaving earlier, before the love and trust is completely gone, so that there is a possibility of reconciling and keeping the family together.

Of course, there will always be a percentage of people who just do not get it, or are too selfish, addicted, whatever nothing can really help. But what is so heartbreaking about true WAWs is that most of the time, it could have been fixed. And very often the left-behind spouse truly does love the WAW and wants to make changes, and even goes on to be a much better spouse in the next relationship. As with most things, early intervention might be the most successful, but we don't know. It's terrifying and completely against the common wisdom to take dramatic measures before someone is completely, utterly done.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MattMatt said:


> Also there can be a problem with what the other spouse sees as hypocrisy.
> 
> My wife doesn't like me to swear. And I do swear. A lot.
> e
> She expressed her concern one day saying: "I wish you would stop your f**king swearing!"
> 
> My wife comes from a military family and swears litke a trooper herself...
> 
> Pardon me if I ignore this concern of hers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for lightening the mood around here. Your comment reminded me of Shirley McLaine's character in Steel Magnolias. "I am nice, God damn it! I smiled at the son of b!tch when I saw him at the Piggly Wiggly".


----------



## Anon Pink

*Boredom*: 
I've grown bored with having the same old problems with this marriage. I've grown bored with having to explain what emotional support looks like. I've grown bored with the way you consistently insist you've been a model husband in the face of years of me making the same damn requests, complaints, needs, and desires that fall on deaf ears. Or...see "money"


*Entitlement*:
I am entitled to feel important to you. I am entitled to a marriage partner that offers love and support. I am entitled to feel heard, understood, and loved.


*Money*:
You're a cheap man. Cheap in the sense that you consistently look for the most economical path and that includes finding out how to give the very minimum effort to show love just so that you can claim that you are a model husband. Cheap because you think a short time of positively responding to my complaints, and my subsequent happiness means that you don't have to positively respond anymore. Cheapness in showing love is not attractive.


*Hormones*: 
The period of time in which I have been silent and am making my exit plan, my husband has been under the impression everything is fine and my "moods" are no longer an issue. So when I say, I am divorcing you, he will be stunned.


----------



## turnera

TNC said:


> Yesssssss!
> 
> And it's not about the cleaning. It's about the fact that they clearly don't give a sh*t if something is important to you because they aren't listening.


I don't want you to do the dishes. I want you to WANT to do the dishes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKKyxmf_BR8


----------



## Rugby

The reason the OP has received push back is due to her oversimplification of the problem. Women initiating divorce at alarming higher levels than men is a sociologocal trend caused by deeply rooted cultural norms and antiquated legal statutes. Her one-size-fits-all application of her personal situation to a cultural phenomenon that has ruined many people's lives, including some of the men participating in this thread, is off putting and offensive. When she went as far as to pass out advice, none of which was based in any fact outside of her anectdotal experience, she was asking, no begging, for critcism. 

Facts matter. If she wants to discuss her personal situation recognizing that it has little to application to most other people, fine. Such a thread amounts to little more than free group therapy provided by anonymous contributors. However, to intelligently and meaningfully discuss a cultural/societal trend that has destroyed many lives, getting at the root of the problem is essential. This problem needs real solutions, which invariably requires accurately diagnosing the problem and its causal mechanisms. The OP is selling proverbial snake oil. If she wants group therapy, so be it. That is the point of many threads on TAM, and appropriately so. With that said, anyone arrogant enough to make loaded statements and hand out advice concerning the most serious issue in most people's lives should arm him or herself with basic facts at the very least.


----------



## OpenWindows

This thread is not about ALL divorces. It is about divorces similar to the OP's, which makes the experiences of people who have lived through this situation very relevant to others struggling with it.


----------



## john117

Not quite.

The gallery rah rahed the usual (and in this case ineffective) DIY methods, lambasted my torpedo method, since decommissioned, and generally blamed me instead of assigning any blame to my "wife". 

Proof positive that 20,000 socks are about the same as mental illness in TAM vernacular... Or divorce land. Here in the Theocratic Republic of Padukahistan, as my lawyer said, it would take the mother to be Susan Smith for the father to get custody, and even 50/50 is problematic.

What's 20,000 socks in cat fur cleanup terms?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Exactly openwindows. This is specifically about walkaway wives, not all women who divorce. 

"anyone arrogant enough to make loaded statements and hand out advice concerning the most serious issue in most people's lives should arm him or herself with basic facts at the very least."

Basic facts like _what _a WAW is, why it happens and how it can be prevented.


----------



## john117

OpenWindows said:


> This thread is not about ALL divorces. It is about divorces similar to the OP's, which makes the experiences of people who have lived through this situation very relevant to others struggling with it.


You can fix unpicked socks. Try fixing mental health issues or a fvcked up upbringing. I would gladly deal with 20,000 socks a week if it meant I have a healthy partner to work with.


----------



## turnera

john117 said:


> I gotta ask, if divorce laws didn't favor women as much, would 20,000 instances of sock pickup feature so prominently as divorce causes?


Of course they would, because women marry for EMOTION, not money. Women don't generally pick men for their looks or their money, but for their ability to make us feel good and loved and heard. And if the emotion is getting trashed, there's nothing left to stay for.

Of course, 50 years ago, if we divorced, even WITH something like child support, we were screwed because nobody would hire women so there was no way for us to support ourselves.

Now, if a SAHM is griping because the man won't pick up his socks, she needs to think twice about what she's expecting, since picking up socks is HER JOB. But if a woman is working and THEN coming home and taking care of the kids and STILL picking up his socks, hell yeah, she's gonna get fed up.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

It's an interesting point to bring up mental illness, BPD in particular. I'm not talking about your situation John, but I know for myself when I was at my most fed-up with my H I had many of the signs of BPD that people throw out around here. Mood swings, speaking it terms of "always" and "never", emotional, becoming unreasonable, intense anger. I'd go between that and total withdrawal, many times over again. Anger at every little thing, stupid things, because I was just so mad and resentful it became all consuming. 

There have been a few husbands that come on here, tell their story of how bitter and angry his wife is, how mood-swingy and rage-y she has become. Some people will jump in with "sounds like BPD". Also sounds like a p*ssed off wife to me.....
For some it's another way to throw up their hands "it wasn't me" and not do anything to address the problem. I've seen BPD. Suicide attempts, compulsions (sex, drugs, gambling, shopping), intense fear of rejection and abandonment. There's so much more to it than intense anger and moody, blaming, being irrational. 
It's very real and men on here do deal with it but IMO it is thrown around too much towards wives who are just p*ssed off and don't like their husbands anymore, don't respect them, and have built such a thick wall they don't care anymore. 

The symptoms are looked at. She's naggy, she's withholding sex, she's angry, she's crying, she's emotional and being unreasonable. There is less looking at what happened first.


----------



## Anon Pink

Rugby said:


> The reason the OP has received push back is due to her oversimplification of the problem. Women initiating divorce at alarming higher levels than men is a sociologocal trend caused by deeply rooted cultural norms and antiquated legal statutes. Her one-size-fits-all application of her personal situation to a cultural phenomenon that has ruined many people's lives, including some of the men participating in this thread, is off putting and offensive. When she went as far as to pass out advice, none of which was based in any fact outside of her anectdotal experience, she was asking, no begging, for critcism.
> 
> Facts matter. If she wants to discuss her personal situation recognizing that it has little to application to most other people, fine. Such a thread amounts to little more than free group therapy provided by anonymous contributors. However, to intelligently and meaningfully discuss a cultural/societal trend that has destroyed many lives, getting at the root of the problem is essential. This problem needs real solutions, which invariably requires accurately diagnosing the problem and its causal mechanisms. The OP is selling proverbial snake oil. If she wants group therapy, so be it. That is the point of many threads on TAM, and appropriately so. With that said, anyone arrogant enough to make loaded statements and hand out advice concerning the most serious issue in most people's lives should arm him or herself with basic facts at the very least.



Yes facts matter. The fact that the WAW has voiced her complaints, asked for improvements, done her level best to facilitate those improvements, done her level best to ensure her husband feels loved in order to create a positive environment in which he can step up and make her feel loved is a fact that the hapless husband ignores.

You have completely dismissed the OP's stated reasons for walking away, not to mention the several other women who have posted nearly the exact same issues. In dismissing our complaints you have placed yourself as the left behind husband who has yet to gain insight and is still in search of more palatable facts.

Yeah, good luck with that.


----------



## GusPolinski

SurpriseMyself said:


> After 6 years of trying marriage counseling, communication, reading books, anything I can think of, I finally left my husband.


To be fair, if you've put in 6+ years of hard work aimed at improving your marriage, I wouldn't think it either fair or accurate for anyone to refer to you as a WAW.

Just my $0.02 USD.


----------



## TRy

turnera said:


> "I NEED you to fix the hole in the ceiling that's been there for 10 years. I NEED you to caulk the kitchen counter because it's a gaping hole that water runs down and causes stinky mold. I NEED you to at least START to go through the 3-car garage that's filled to the ceiling with your stuff that you won't let ME touch, and start getting rid of things, so I can fit more than my lawnmower in there."
> 
> And he has AGREED to do it, all five times. I have a page-long list of things that have broken in our 4500-sq-ft 10-year-old house that he looks at and ignores.





turnera said:


> When I finally get the courage to leave, he will claim he was blindsided. But we both know he's lying. He just didn't care.


 You live in a "4500-sq-ft 10-year-old house" with a "3-car garage" and you cannot afford to hire a handy man to "fix the hole in the ceiling" and to "caulk the kitchen counter"? You have a large home yet you wish for more room in your garage? These things are important enough to you to leave you husband over? I just do not see it. To me these are small things. What I see is that you live in a nice big house that is only 10 years old, and yet you are still not happy with the lifestyle that you have with your husband. Many women would kill to have your problems and your husband.

As a guy, if I was your husband I would feel blindsided by you because I would have thought that these small material things were not as important to you as me. As an FYI, 2 of my wife's friends were WAWs. In both cases, after the husbands could not win them back, the husbands went on to marry younger women that are happy to have have them as husbands, were the WAWs are both still single and unhappy. At least in the case of my wife's walk away wives, it seems that the common thread is that the husbands are happy with their lives while the WAW's (married or unmarried) are unhappy.


----------



## OpenWindows

TRy said:


> As a guy, if I was your husband I would feel blindsided by you because I would have thought that these small material things were not as important to you as me.


Should she be happy just with the fact that he exists and lives with her?

Her posts, on this thread and others, paint a picture of a man who is not at all engaged with his wife or his marriage. Why would that make her happy to be with him?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

GusPolinski said:


> To be fair, if you've put in 6+ years of hard work aimed at improving your marriage, I wouldn't think it either fair or accurate for anyone to refer to you as a WAW.
> 
> Just my $0.02 USD.


That is what a WAW is though. 
They try and try for years without consistent success, then they give up (sometimes this stage can last for years too) and then they eventually leave and their husbands don't understand why. Especially when they've just been in the withdrawal phase when you aren't even complaining anymore, you've given up.


----------



## knobcreek

TRy said:


> You live in a "4500-sq-ft 10-year-old house" with a "3-car garage" and you cannot afford to hire a handy man to "fix the hole in the ceiling" and to "caulk the kitchen counter"?


Or better yet, she can fix it herself. I can't understand why men are to help with the housework, but any heavy lifting, lawn work, weed picking, car work, caulking sinks, etc... still falls on him, and him alone.

I still contest that most women in this state are blind, they're blind to what their husbands do do. They don't see the five hours of lawn work or snow shoveling as actual work, because they've never done it, so it doesn't compute. 

When the marriage hits this point it isn't about socks, it's about a hen-pecking wife looking for crap to dump on her husband about so she can justify her leaving.


----------



## tech-novelist

Cosmos said:


> Me: Sweetie, I really need you to pay attention when I'm trying to address a problem in our relationship. I need you to make eye contact with me so that I know you're listening.
> 
> SO: I thought I was making eye contact with you.
> 
> Me: No you weren't.
> 
> SO: I'm sure I was.
> 
> Me: Believe me, you weren't. Your eyes were closed.
> 
> SO: I was just resting my eyes. I was listening to you!
> 
> Me: No you weren't listening. _You had actually started snoring_!
> 
> These sort of conversations are not only crazymaking, but they spell death to a relationship.


This is almost word-for-word the conversation I have with my wife most evenings, except for a couple of points:

1. She's the one with her eyes closed claiming that she is listening but obviously having no idea what is going on.
2. What she is saying she was listening to the was the TV, not me.

Otherwise it's almost identical! >


----------



## tech-novelist

Blondilocks said:


> "Males are very literal. While women speak emotionally."
> 
> Literal has nothing to do with emotions. If a woman calmly says 'the house is on fire' or excitedly shouts 'the house is on fire', does that mean her man will only believe the calm statement? I don't think so. Otherwise, he'd risk his azz being on fire.
> 
> It appears some men are blaming the court system for their wives to have an opportunity to leave. Do you really want your wife to be a slave?


I must have missed the post(s) where someone wants to make wives into slaves. Could you provide a cite for such a post?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

TRy said:


> You live in a "4500-sq-ft 10-year-old house" with a "3-car garage" and you cannot afford to hire a handy man to "fix the hole in the ceiling" and to "caulk the kitchen counter"? You have a large home yet you wish for more room in your garage? These things are important enough to you to leave you husband over? I just do not see it. To me these are small things. What I see is that you live in a nice big house that is only 10 years old, and yet you are still not happy with the lifestyle that you have with your husband. Many women would kill to have your problems and your husband.


She would be happier in 1000sqft with a husband who actually listened, cared and didn't dismiss her words and needs.

It's not the things, it's the lack of basic respect for her, to actually listen to her words, to _want _to meet her needs and do those things. 
If you don't have that, it doesn't matter what kind of house or garage you have. Things don't build love and there isn't a woman in the world, IMO, who could look past being dismissed, ignored and taken for granted for very long just because of the size of their home.


----------



## OpenWindows

If she hired the handyman, she'd still have a husband that didn't respect her or care about meeting her needs. It addresses the symptom, not the problem.


----------



## turnera

TRy said:


> You live in a "4500-sq-ft 10-year-old house" with a "3-car garage" and you cannot afford to hire a handy man to "fix the hole in the ceiling" and to "caulk the kitchen counter"? You have a large home yet you wish for more room in your garage? These things are important enough to you to leave you husband over? I just do not see it. To me these are small things. What I see is that you live in a nice big house that is only 10 years old, and yet you are still not happy with the lifestyle that you have with your husband. Many women would kill to have your problems and your husband.
> 
> As a guy, if I was your husband I would feel blindsided by you because I would have thought that these small material things were not as important to you as me. As an FYI, 2 of my wife's friends were WAWs. In both cases, after the husbands could not win them back, the husbands went on to marry younger women that are happy to have have them as husbands, were the WAWs are both still single and unhappy. At least in the case of my wife's walk away wives, it seems that the common thread is that the husbands are happy with their lives while the WAW's (married or unmarried) are unhappy.


Nope I can't afford it. My H ran our finances completely for the first 30 years of our marriage and drove up $100,000 in credit card debt, until I found out and took over. And now I'm going to therapy to learn how to stand up to a controller so that I CAN save up the money for a handyman and hire one despite his vehement anger and denial of it.

As has been described, women don't leave because the things don't get done. Women leave because they tell their husband it's a need or even a want, and the husband IGNORES HER.

And you are obviously biased and see all women as gold-diggers, so your point is moot.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knobcreek said:


> Or better yet, she can fix it herself. I can't understand why men are to help with the housework, but any heavy lifting, lawn work, weed picking, car work, caulking sinks, etc... still falls on him, and him alone.
> 
> I still contest that most women in this state are blind, they're blind to what their husbands do do. They don't see the five hours of lawn work or snow shoveling as actual work, because they've never done it, so it doesn't compute.
> 
> When the marriage hits this point it isn't about socks, it's about a hen-pecking wife looking for crap to dump on her husband about so she can justify her leaving.


LOL. I do the mowing, the shoveling, the fixing of the sinks and the replacing the part on the furnace. I recently WALKED (aka pushed through the snow) 200 pounds of new shelving units home a block because my H was busy with the vehicle and then I set them all up myself. 

WAW learn to do it all because we have to. We can ask and beg and cry and plead for him to please help, it's too much for just me and we get no where.

The fact that she is doing 99% of the chores and just asked him to do some basic fixing is not being unreasonable. 

It's not even a bare minimum of what his JOB as an adult and husband would be.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Rugby said:


> The reason the OP has received push back is due to her oversimplification of the problem. Women initiating divorce at alarming higher levels than men is a sociologocal trend caused by deeply rooted cultural norms and antiquated legal statutes. Her one-size-fits-all application of her personal situation to a cultural phenomenon that has ruined many people's lives, including some of the men participating in this thread, is off putting and offensive. When she went as far as to pass out advice, none of which was based in any fact outside of her anectdotal experience, she was asking, no begging, for critcism.
> 
> Facts matter. If she wants to discuss her personal situation recognizing that it has little to application to most other people, fine. Such a thread amounts to little more than free group therapy provided by anonymous contributors. However, to intelligently and meaningfully discuss a cultural/societal trend that has destroyed many lives, getting at the root of the problem is essential. This problem needs real solutions, which invariably requires accurately diagnosing the problem and its causal mechanisms. The OP is selling proverbial snake oil. If she wants group therapy, so be it. That is the point of many threads on TAM, and appropriately so. With that said, anyone arrogant enough to make loaded statements and hand out advice concerning the most serious issue in most people's lives should arm him or herself with basic facts at the very least.


Come on, this entire website is about anecdotal evidence. We all come here to share our experiences, what works and what doesn't. This isn't a scientific journal with people showing case studies and peer reviewed evidence. The OP stated what happened in her marriage, how it could have been saved and advice for others on what not to do. For whatever reason, you and others have totally discounted what she said and what many other women said. She isn't selling "snake oil", if anything, you are. You were the one who stated that wives leave after certain periods of time due to biology and such. Anecdotal evidence at best since there are millions upon millions of marriages where that didn't happen. Indeed, facts matter. She didn't pretend she was giving any, that was you.


----------



## turnera

knobcreek said:


> Or better yet, she can fix it herself. I can't understand why men are to help with the housework, but any heavy lifting, lawn work, weed picking, car work, caulking sinks, etc... still falls on him, and him alone.
> 
> I still contest that most women in this state are blind, they're blind to what their husbands do do. They don't see the five hours of lawn work or snow shoveling as actual work, because they've never done it, so it doesn't compute.
> 
> When the marriage hits this point it isn't about socks, it's about a hen-pecking wife looking for crap to dump on her husband about so she can justify her leaving.


fwiw, I mowed our yard for the first 30 years. I quit mowing because he would go behind me and RE-mow certain sections because I didn't do it well enough to suit him. (Just like he'd rearrange the dishes in the dishwasher. Just this weekend, he re-organized the pantry I had just finished organizing.) And after a couple years' therapy, I got brave enough to tell him (the next time he did that to me) that I quit, that mowing was now HIS job. I do all the gardening, all the weed-picking, all the edging. He now mows.

I spent last Sunday sitting right beside him handing him tools as he worked on his car, for 11 hours. And then stayed up late doing MY work because it never got done. The car that has been broken since last February but he won't take to a car repair shop, so that when I got laid off in February, I sat at home without transportation for FOUR months because he just drove my car instead of doing what a husband should be doing - fixing his car. 

The Sunday before that, I spent 7 hours helping him push a several-hundred-pound water heater up into the attic to replace the old one because he wouldn't hire someone to do it and because we have no friends to call for help. Yes, 7 hours.

He didn't care that I was stuck at home when his car was broken and he took mine (without even asking) with no way to even get to the grocery store until he came home every day; it never even occurred to him that I felt trapped all those months until I had a breakdown about things a couple months ago and told him about it and said I'd rather just not wake up than have to do this any more.

My birthday present last year, which I asked for, was a new weed-eater. The year before that it was a BBQ pit. The year before that it was an edger. So that *I* could do the work more easily.

btw, I TRIED to hang the curtains that I'd asked him to hang for three years and finally gave up and tried to do it myself. And I failed miserably to try to get the anchor things in the wall because the whole thing fell out of the wall an hour after I hung them. THAT is what happens in all the things I try to do myself because I don't know what the hell I'm doing and I don't have the aptitude for it. Trust me, I've tried. And then gotten yelled at for not 'waiting' and for 'ruining things.'

So don't make assumptions, ok? And don't slide YOUR problems over onto MY shoulders. The women who've come here have valid reasons for feeling unheard and unappreciated. They are NOT the bad women in your life or your friends' lives.


----------



## Cosmos

turnera said:


> I don't want you to do the dishes. I want you to WANT to do the dishes.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKKyxmf_BR8



I feel emotionally drained just watching that clip!


----------



## TRy

OpenWindows said:


> Should she be happy just with the fact that he exists and lives with her?
> 
> Her posts, on this thread and others, paint a picture of a man who is not at all engaged with his wife or his marriage. Why would that make her happy to be with him?


 They live in a big house with at 3 car garage that is only 10 years old, so I am guessing that he works a job that helps support this lifestyle. This is more than him just existing. Does her posts, on this thread and others, paint a picture of a man that is a drunk, physically abusive, verbally abusive, or cheats on her? If not, why is that being treated as a given?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Cosmos said:


> I feel emotionally drained just watching that clip!


Ya, I'm pretty sure I've had that exact fight a few times. Complete with the Grand Theft Auto game in the background. 

Should be required watching material for new couples.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

TRy said:


> They live in a big house with at 3 car garage that is only 10 years old, so I am guessing that he works a job that helps support this lifestyle. This is more than him just existing. Does her posts, on this thread and others, paint a picture of a man that is a drunk, physically abusive, verbally abusive, or cheats on her? If not, why is that being treated as a given?


She words too and men need to do more than just have a job to be a partner, husband and adult. Everyone has to work together to build the home and family, to meet each other's needs, to listen to their spouse, to build love. 
Who cares how much he makes if he doesn't respect or listen to her?


----------



## turnera

TRy said:


> They live in a big house with at 3 car garage that is only 10 years old, so I am guessing that he works a job that helps support this lifestyle. This is more than him just existing. Does her posts, on this thread and others, paint a picture of a man that is a drunk, physically abusive, verbally abusive, or cheats on her? If not, why is that being treated as a given?


He DID work a job that kept that house up. Until he quit it to go run a friend's company to feed his ego, used up his entire 24 years' severance package to do that because they didn't PAY him, and took four years to fix up our last house and paid for both houses' mortgages, insurance, utilities, and taxes on credit cards because he was earning no money! And of course never told me. 

And then proceeded to have a series of ever-worsening jobs paying 10%-20% less than the LAST one, while I changed jobs four times to increase my wages so as to try to cover the increasing debt from all the credit cards (which he refuses to get rid of).

fwiw, my posts are of a controlling, emotionally abusive (yet very loving) husband who means well but is sorely screwed up and takes it all out on me (and our daughter) because I just sat and took it for 35 years because *I *was raised to be silent and do what I was told. The last couple years it has gone way down, with the help of my IC and finally being brave enough to say I was leaving if things didn't change. Before that? Manipulation, guilt, passive aggressiveness, threats to kill himself, anger if I dared do anything he didn't first agree to, refusal to discuss anything of importance because he 'just didn't feel like it' so that nothing ever got taken care of. To this day, I STILL jump up and pretend to be taking care of something, if I happen to be sitting and reading or on the computer when he drives up the driveway, so as to avoid his 'so what did YOU get done today?' that I heard the first 30 years of marriage.


----------



## OpenWindows

TRy said:


> They live in a big house with at 3 car garage that is only 10 years old, so I am guessing that he works a job that helps support this lifestyle. This is more than him just existing. Does her posts, on this thread and others, paint a picture of a man that is a drunk, physically abusive, verbally abusive, or cheats on her? If not, why is that being treated as a given?


I didn't say he was any of those things. But maybe her criteria for a happy marriage involves more than money and not being smacked around.

The idea that cheating or abuse is the only reason worthy of leaving is crap. People don't want to be married to people who don't respect them or care about what they want.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

knobcreek said:


> Let's get real this isn't about socks left on the floor or a dirty dish in the sink, or he's not doing his chores according to your standards. WAW's simply are bored, maybe their husbands put on some weight, lost their hair, having job problems, and well you think you can do better now. Like I said before, there's really nothing a dude can do to stop that.


VERY MUCH NO! Not even close.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I just looked through the comments. Lots of "god, that sounds like my wife, she's so irrational" These are the guys that just don't and never will get it.


----------



## GusPolinski

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> That is what a WAW is though.
> They try and try for years without consistent success, then they give up (sometimes this stage can last for years too) and then they eventually leave and their husbands don't understand why. Especially when they've just been in the withdrawal phase when you aren't even complaining anymore, you've given up.


I guess I've always thought of a WAW as being a wife that just leaves one day w/ no real explanation. No cogent, coherent, or reasonable list of grievances, no legitimate gripes, no plan, just... nothing.


----------



## luvinhim

this is a wonderful eye opening thread and husbands and wife alike who are driving their spouses to walk away or feel the need to walk away should take what they can from these replies and apply them to their marriages.

I too am a walk a way wife trying to make my marriage work and to reconnect. I blame myself for not standing up to my husbands bullying, controlling, abusive ways (verbally and physically). I did 
not want to lose my family. The children were young and I was afraid of being alone raising the kids by myself. I left a great paying job to become a stay a home mother.

Im not toally bashing my husband, he is a good provider and good dad. I just think he was afraid of me growing up and maturing and telling him no.

But answer this question both men and women. Why should a woman HAVE to tell her husband that she is tired of him screaming, cursing and saying hurtful things to her in his moment of rage? Why should a woman have to continually tell her husband that it is not okay for him to hit or or hold her hands or keep her from leaving a room? The only thing that made him stop was calling the police and having him arrested....this was after years and years and years of telling him to stop. And guess what...he was mad that i left him in jail overnight and did not pick him up the next day. Go figure. 

My rant is over.


----------



## TRy

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> She would be happier in 1000sqft with a husband who actually listened, cared and didn't dismiss her words and needs.


 I hear woman say this, but the truth is that many women give their spouses grief if they are not able to live in a lifestyle similar to the lifestyle of their friends and family.


----------



## TRy

luvinhim said:


> Im not toally bashing my husband, he is a good provider and good dad. I just think he was afraid of me growing up and maturing and telling him no.
> 
> But answer this question both men and women. Why should a woman HAVE to tell her husband that she is tired of him screaming, cursing and saying hurtful things to her in his moment of rage? Why should a woman have to continually tell her husband that it is not okay for him to hit or or hold her hands or keep her from leaving a room?


 If he is hitting you and screaming at you, you should be totally "bashing" him. By my definition, a woman leaving an abusive spouse is not a walk away wife.


----------



## Blondilocks

It's disheartening that some men's pride and arrogance won't even allow them to consider that something might actually be a man's fault. Or, is it fear? 

It is certainly arrogant to tear into a poster without first acquainting oneself with the history. It doesn't take long to read some of their earlier posts to get up to speed with their situation. 

If all you're going to contribute to a thread is ugly accusations and pseudo scientific BS along with a healthy dose of bitterness, then perhaps you would be happier posting in the Men's Clubhouse where your misogynistic ravings will be applauded.


----------



## TRy

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Lots of "god, that sounds like my wife, she's so irrational" These are the guys that just don't and never will get it.


 Let me rephrase that. "These are the guys being guys, this is something that some women just don't and never will get."


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

GusPolinski said:


> I guess I've always thought of a WAW as being a wife that just leaves one day w/ no real explanation. No cogent, coherent, or reasonable list of grievances, no legitimate gripes, no plan, just... nothing.


Often the husband in a WAW situation THINKS this is what happened because they just didn't see the problems. But most of the posters on this thread are using this kind of definition for WAW. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/divorce-busting/200803/the-walkaway-wife-syndrome

Exit strategies often take years to execute and during that time women are focused on fortifying their resources, not fixing their marriages. The absence of complaints has their husbands believing that things have improved; they’re out of the dog house. “No news is good news,” they tell themselves as they obliviously continue to lead separate lives. But then “D-Day” arrives and their wives inform them that the marriages are over, triggering shock and devastation. “Why didn’t you tell me you were this unhappy,” these men protest, words that finally nail the marital coffin shut. It is then that they start to recognize the importance of their wives and their children. They become desperate to save their marriages.


----------



## just got it 55

Anon Pink said:


> *Boredom*:
> I've grown bored with having the same old problems with this marriage. I've grown bored with having to explain what emotional support looks like. I've grown bored with the way you consistently insist you've been a model husband in the face of years of me making the same damn requests, complaints, needs, and desires that fall on deaf ears. Or...see "money"
> 
> 
> *Entitlement*:
> I am entitled to feel important to you. I am entitled to a marriage partner that offers love and support. I am entitled to feel heard, understood, and loved.
> 
> 
> *Money*:
> You're a cheap man. Cheap in the sense that you consistently look for the most economical path and that includes finding out how to give the very minimum effort to show love just so that you can claim that you are a model husband. Cheap because you think a short time of positively responding to my complaints, and my subsequent happiness means that you don't have to positively respond anymore. Cheapness in showing love is not attractive.
> 
> 
> *Hormones*:
> The period of time in which I have been silent and am making my exit plan, my husband has been under the impression everything is fine and my "moods" are no longer an issue. So when I say, I am divorcing you, he will be stunned.[/QUOTE
> 
> Damn AP I thought you guys turned it around?
> 
> 55


----------



## Lila

TRy said:


> Let me rephrase that. "*These are the guys being guys*, this is something that some women just don't and never will get."


If this is the case, then WAWs are the norm and men should not be blindsided, no?


----------



## TNC

I am not understanding how some posters are turning complaints about things husbands don't do, into the reasons women are leaving them.

IT ISN'T THE TASK!!!

The issue stems from asking for something and repeatedly not having it done, and that in turn making us feel like they don't care, respect, or value our wants and needs. 

It isn't about socks... or dishes, or yard work. 

It's about a marriage full of putting someone else's needs before your own and not feeling that you're getting the same treatment in return.


----------



## happy as a clam

OP (SurpriseMyself)...

Your original post and subsequent ones in this thread are SPOT-ON.

I posted a similar thread -- in actuality, it was my original thread, *my story* -- on why my marriage failed.

My marriage was almost a mirror image of your own. I posted my "story" in hopes that it would help other lonely people (male or female) trapped in a lonely, loveless, emotion-less, lack-of-intimacy, *sexless* marriage. In hopes of helping others reconcile the fact that *they weren't really in a marriage at all.*

In very short order I was attacked vehemently on this site about how I was a CHEATER (I met someone who provoked all of the feelings inside of me that my husband had sought out to BURY in me). Before I ever pursued anything with this person, I filed for divorce. It was only after my divorce was filed and I was away from my ex that I even began to contemplate exploring a relationship with this person further.

Despite hundreds and hundreds of "likes" on my thread -- in fact, I received an outpouring of support from fellow TAMers trapped in a similar marriage -- I finally deleted the thread because it was causing me nothing but strife from others who wanted to continuously leave snarky comments about me, my morals, and my marriage. Angry responses on my thread, angry PMs, humor at my expense.

In my marriage, I went through YEARS (not days, weeks, or months) without ANY sex. My husband (LD, likely asexual, possibly gay) felt that lavish homes, plenty of money, and clout and prestige from his professional accolades was "more than enough" to keep the home fires burning.

Gay, LD, emotionally crippled, WHATEVER... if my husband would have met me EVEN HALFWAY as in meaningful counseling, getting to the roots of his issues -- a predatory cousin who made him do shameful things during sleepovers, his alcoholic father who beat him with a coat hanger at the dinner table, his "Little-Man/Napolean complex" (5'8", 155 lbs) -- we might have been able to work this out. He lived his life feeling emasculated from FOO issues. But as the counselor told me, "Your husband is Teflon. Anything we try to 'get in' just gets bounced back. A counselor needs 'nooks and crannies' to get into one's psyche." My husband did not HAVE nooks and crannies. He had shut them all down decades before .

As it is, I divorced, pursued my attraction and affection for this other person, and am living the life of my dreams!! Life couldn't be better if I tried.

I have thought often of "resurrecting" my original thread as I received literally dozens, if not hundreds, of people thanking me for my honesty and willingness to spill my guts.

Sadly, I caved under the pressure of hostile posters and have chosen to leave that thread "undeleted."


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> You can fix unpicked socks. Try fixing mental health issues or a fvcked up upbringing. I would gladly deal with 20,000 socks a week if it meant I have a healthy partner to work with.


Yes, it's hard to deal with a spouse who has mental healthy issues

A lot of the WAW's are dealing with men who have mental health issues.

While the socks were an example, I believe that it's pretty clear that Tunera is dealing with a husband who has mental health issues.

The last husband had/has mental health issues and became completely non functional except he could play mean computer game and surf web. No one, but a mentally ill person does that.

.


----------



## john117

turnera said:


> Of course they would, because women marry for EMOTION, not money. Women don't generally pick men for their looks or their money, but for their ability to make us feel good and loved and heard.


Where I live that's hardly the case. 95% of wives are SAHM and lets just say they try very hard to not act like the proverbial TAM wraiths.

North of the railroad track, its a lot less SAHM and a lot more lower incomes, and wraiths. I can't generalize but here I don't quite feel emotions are the driving force. Not when the payola is a rich executive husband, a McMansion, private schools, domestic help galore (nanny's are relatively common for SAHM here)... 

The family court system here... Not very male friendly as me and others have found out directly or indirectly.

Apologies for the cynicism bit I spent a decade in the PTO as the token dad...


----------



## Adelais

GusPolinski said:


> I guess I've always thought of a WAW as being a wife that just leaves one day w/ no real explanation. No cogent, coherent, or reasonable list of grievances, no legitimate gripes, no plan, just... nothing.


You are exactly right Gus, from the husband's perspective. 

However, in reality, she does tell him what was wrong, for years, and he dismisses her words. So she shuts up. When she feels the time is right, she leaves. Why be married to be used and have your own needs not met?


----------



## EleGirl

knobcreek said:


> Let's get real this isn't about socks left on the floor or a dirty dish in the sink, or he's not doing his chores according to your standards. WAW's simply are bored, maybe their husbands put on some weight, lost their hair, having job problems, and well you think you can do better now. Like I said before, there's really nothing a dude can do to stop that.


Talk about dismissing real issues. No, WAWs are not just bored. There is a definition for the term "Walk Away Wife". Here is a link to that.

Get Relationship Advice and Solve Marriage Problems with Michele Weiner-Davis - Divorce Busting®

Women on this thread have been talking about real issues that lead to the eventual end of their marriage. And this is your interpretation?


----------



## john117

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> She would be happier in 1000sqft with a husband who actually listened, cared and didn't dismiss her words and needs.
> 
> It's not the things, it's the lack of basic respect for her, to actually listen to her words, to _want _to meet her needs and do those things.
> If you don't have that, it doesn't matter what kind of house or garage you have. Things don't build love and there isn't a woman in the world, IMO, who could look past being dismissed, ignored and taken for granted for very long just because of the size of their home.


Speaking from experience, why did she build/buy said house ten years ago if he was the same guy as now? If he's not, WHY?


----------



## turnera

EleGirl said:


> While the socks were an example, I believe that it's pretty clear that Tunera is dealing with a husband who has mental health issues.


Our DD25, a psych grad student, has made an unofficial diagnosis based on the classes she's taken so far (and our work with the same IC): Narcissist with BPD tendencies. And the IC has been basically trying to get me to leave him, but I have severe issues with confrontation so it's a work in progress.

He's high functioning, people love him to pieces, but the past few years, as his career has taken a nosedive, money problems have mounted, and his looks have started to fade, his issues have started spilling out onto OTHER people, not just me. He got kicked out of his band for being passive aggressive and negative and assuming they should all just do what he says, because he knows everything, lol. And now his NEW band is having a meeting this week to discuss the same issues. He got fired from his last job because he couldn't get along with the worker bees from whom he needed drawings and because he wouldn't bribe them like the other salespeople did, they wouldn't do his work for weeks and weeks, and so he tried to get them in trouble, but everyone's so fed up with him and his negativity that they just fired him.

Anyway, sorry for taking up so much space here.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

TRy said:


> You live in a "4500-sq-ft 10-year-old house" with a "3-car garage" and you cannot afford to hire a handy man to "fix the hole in the ceiling" and to "caulk the kitchen counter"? You have a large home yet you wish for more room in your garage? These things are important enough to you to leave you husband over? I just do not see it. To me these are small things. What I see is that you live in a nice big house that is only 10 years old, and yet you are still not happy with the lifestyle that you have with your husband. Many women would kill to have your problems and your husband.
> 
> As a guy, if I was your husband I would feel blindsided by you because I would have thought that these small material things were not as important to you as me. As an FYI, 2 of my wife's friends were WAWs. In both cases, after the husbands could not win them back, the husbands went on to marry younger women that are happy to have have them as husbands, were the WAWs are both still single and unhappy. At least in the case of my wife's walk away wives, it seems that the common thread is that the husbands are happy with their lives while the WAW's (married or unmarried) are unhappy.


You are missing the point. It isn't about being able to afford someone to fix it. The H here isn't present or engaged with his wife or his own home for that matter. She came to him letting him know that these things need to be done, to the home they share TOGETHER, and she was just shut down and dismissed. Would it be ok with H if the W didn't do any cooking, cleaning or laundry, since hell, he could just HIRE A MAID to do all of that, since they are living this posh lifestyle! (and for the record, their lifestyle may not be what you think depending on where they live.) 

This post is EXACTLY proof of what this thread is all about.


----------



## EleGirl

Blondilocks said:


> We're all familiar with the term* 'selective hearing'.* I think there is also 'selective memory'. I believe a person can be blindsided, but I also believe that the term is used inappropriately by a great number of people to gain sympathy. That may be a reason why they get so defensive during a convo - they are going to shout down those with suspicions.



Selective hearing is a mechanism used to avoid the issues and it becomes a huge problem. 

I got to the point that I would write it all down in a letter so that 'selective memory' could not be pulled.


----------



## john117

TNC said:


> I am not understanding how some posters are turning complaints about things husbands don't do, into the reasons women are leaving them.
> 
> IT ISN'T THE TASK!!!
> 
> The issue stems from asking for something and repeatedly not having it done, and that in turn making us feel like they don't care, respect, or value our wants and needs.
> 
> It isn't about socks... or dishes, or yard work.
> 
> It's about a marriage full of putting someone else's needs before your own and not feeling that you're getting the same treatment in return.


If the couple does not communicate effectively it will look this way. Add unrealistic expectations and you have it made.

Not five minutes ago my wife noticed a pair of deep gouges on a door trim. She started b!tching about it and made some rather untimely comments when I pointed out its a simple repair and I would do it. Of course it was me that spent two entire night months of evenings and weekends teaching my wife some critical subject matter for her work and had no time to even now the yard... But this time is not "chore time" so...


----------



## Holland

happy as a clam said:


> OP (SurpriseMyself)...
> 
> Your original post and subsequent ones in this thread are SPOT-ON.
> 
> I posted a similar thread -- in actuality, it was my original thread, *my story* -- on why my marriage failed.
> 
> My marriage was almost a mirror image of your own. I posted my "story" in hopes that it would help other lonely people (male or female) trapped in a lonely, loveless, emotion-less, lack-of-intimacy, *sexless* marriage. In hopes of helping others reconcile the fact that *they weren't really in a marriage at all.*
> 
> In very short order I was attacked vehemently on this site about how I was a CHEATER (I met someone who provoked all of the feelings inside of me that my husband had sought out to BURY in me). Before I ever pursued anything with this person, I filed for divorce. It was only after my divorce was filed and I was away from my ex that I even began to contemplate exploring a relationship with this person further.....................


You forgot the small issue of the OP being edited to remove the reference to you becoming emotionally attached pre divorce to the OM. It's a forum, ppl get hammered everyday but don't hold on to it. Let it go for your own benefit, breath in, breath out and all that. 

As for this thread, the term WAW seems to be an Americanism and TBH it serves little but to blame the woman. We all need to take responsibility for our own failings in a marriage that has ended (it is never one sided) but why should the woman be fully blamed and have to also take responsibility for her husbands failing? How about the term Ignorant, Selfish Husband or ISH for short?

Moving forward from my past marriage the best thing to happen was to find a man with a high EQ, I would encourage any woman that has lived in the past with an ISH to learn to recognise a high EQ man and understand his stand out value as a quality partner.


----------



## GusPolinski

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> You are exactly right Gus, from the husband's perspective.
> 
> However, in reality, she does tell him what was wrong, for years, and he dismisses her words. So she shuts up. When she feels the time is right, she leaves. Why be married to be used and have your own needs not met?


I can understand that.

Still, for a wife (or a husband) to decide on Day X that she's done w/ her marriage, and then lie in wait for six months, a year, or whatever, all the while gathering resources, maintaining the status quo, making plans and preparations, etc...?

Let's be honest here, folks... that's deceitful, manipulative, and it smacks of a covert contract. Hell, it's worse than that, because there aren't any terms that the other spouse can actually meet in order to avoid divorce.


----------



## ocotillo

Holland said:


> How about the term Ignorant, Selfish Husband or ISH for short?


That would definitely be a better name for what we're talking about on this thread.


----------



## TNC

GusPolinski said:


> I can understand that.
> 
> Still, for a wife (or a husband) to decide on Day X that she's done w/ her marriage, and then lie in wait for six months, a year, or whatever, all the while gathering resources, maintaining the status quo, making plans and preparations, etc...?
> 
> Let's be honest here, folks... that's deceitful, manipulative, and it smacks of a covert contract. Hell, it's worse than that, because there aren't any terms that the other spouse can actually meet in order to avoid divorce.


I agree with this. However typically she has expressed her dissatisfaction in the marriage so many times she can't count them...and it fell on deaf ears. So she stopped talking.


----------



## turnera

john117 said:


> Speaking from experience, why did she build/buy said house ten years ago if he was the same guy as now? If he's not, WHY?


I'm really not trying to make this thread about me. But you asked. I was raised to please others, not ask for anything, not think I was better than (or as good as) anyone else. I was raised that you marry a guy and do what he says. That's my FOO. I dated one emotionally abusive guy, left him because he was cheating, and went straight into dating my H because I was already 20 and back then you were an old maid if you hadn't married yet. From the day we got married, he controlled our money, he controlled what we did, who we saw. Not through anger so much as through passive aggressiveness. If I'd see a friend, I'd have to come home to 2 hours of why that person is a POS and I should never see them again. Same with my family. So I just stopped having friends or visiting family, just to avoid the tirades. As long as I did what he wanted, we were fine. If I wanted to do something else, he'd go off on me about how selfish I was, how I didn't love him, how he should just go drive off a bridge since nobody loves him...I was basically conditioned to make my whole life about him and doing what he wanted, when, where. Had to wait 10 years til he was ready for a baby. Couldn't have any more cos he didn't want more. Handed over my paycheck. Didn't discuss anything he didn't want to discuss. He chose when we were moving, where we were moving, and how we were moving. 

My first IC, her only homework for 3 years every month was for me to tell him I was going to go to the mall. By myself. Just to window shop (so he couldn't complain about me wasting money). I never could get up the courage to just say "Hey, I'm gonna go to the mall." It wasn't until DD25 went away to college that I for the first time went anywhere without him (to visit her; that was my excuse). 

It wasn't all bad. He wanted me to be happy; would let me look at the houses; and in the end we got the one we got because it was a great deal instead of building the one I wanted. But I didn't know any better.

Second IC, which we first got to help DD25 deal with her dad when she was in high school and he was controlling what SHE did, and who then turned into MY IC to help me learn to stand up to him, worked a long time with me to get me to speak up, say what I felt, and try to create some boundaries. It's a work in progress. 

But to answer your question, we bought the house because we were literally forced out of our old neighborhood because of a feud my H had with my stepmother, who created a stink and started a rumor in our neighborhood about him beating our child, which morphed into him being a child molester, which resulted in her losing all her friends and people literally pulling their kids out of the local pool and leaving whenever we showed up. We finally moved after 3 years of that because kids started coming up to her in school and asking her (egged on by their parents) what her dad was doing to her. So we had to move to get her into a new school district for 7th grade.

And why did I move with him? Because my whole life I've been conditioned (by family and then by my ex and then by him) to say nothing, do nothing, go along, and not cause waves. It's taken me 35 years of marriage and nearing the end of my life to even be able to speak up and try to make MY stuff matter. To be honest, the main reason I've never seriously made plans to move is because I've been afraid of him. Not physically, but mentally. When I broke up with my abusive fiance, he stalked me for months and months and I was terrified. I have no doubt that my husband would make my life a living hell if I left because I'm literally ALL he wants. And I'm just not ready to withstand something like that.

He's not a monster. Just extremely dysfunctional and when you add in MY dysfunction of not being able to stand up for myself, it's just a clusterfluck of a mess.

And please don't think I don't recognize that this is all my fault. I'm a weak person. I'm terrified of confrontation. And I have no self worth. If I could stick with therapy, do the hard work to improve, none of this would be a problem because I'd be able to face confrontation and enact consequences. But that's not me. Not after 57 years of this.

Which is why I spend so much time on forums like this, trying to talk younger people into making the changes before the dysfunction becomes too ingrained in them like it has me.


----------



## CopperTop

GusPolinski said:


> I can understand that.
> 
> Still, for a wife (or a husband) to decide on Day X that she's done w/ her marriage, and then lie in wait for six months, a year, or whatever, all the while gathering resources, maintaining the status quo, making plans and preparations, etc...?
> 
> Let's be honest here, folks... that's deceitful, manipulative, and it smacks of a covert contract. Hell, it's worse than that, because there aren't any terms that the other spouse can actually meet in order to avoid divorce.


What other alternatives are there? If you have tried for years to make changes, and nothing is ever accomplished, do you keep stirring the pot, creating upheaval and hurting the family or do you bide your time and run out the clock?


----------



## GusPolinski

CopperTop said:


> What other alternatives are there? If you have tried for years to make changes, and nothing is ever accomplished, do you keep stirring the pot, creating upheaval and hurting the family or do you bide your time and run out the clock?


Neither.

You dig deep, reach down, find your balls, spine, or whatever, and you put it all on the line...

"I'm tired of this. I can't live this way any more. I _won't_ live this way anymore. Starting today, things will begin to change; if they don't, I WILL be filing for divorce."


----------



## CopperTop

GusPolinski said:


> Neither.
> 
> You dig deep, reach down, find your balls, spine, or whatever, and you put it all on the line...
> 
> "I'm tired of this. I can't live this way any more. I _won't_ live this way anymore. Starting today, things will begin to change; if they don't, I WILL be filing for divorce."


Which is exactly what I did. Nothing changed except for the worse.

So now, I am running out the clock.


----------



## MattMatt

Blondilocks said:


> It's disheartening that some men's pride and arrogance won't even allow them to consider that something might actually be a man's fault. Or, is it fear?
> 
> It is certainly arrogant to tear into a poster without first acquainting oneself with the history. It doesn't take long to read some of their earlier posts to get up to speed with their situation.
> 
> If all you're going to contribute to a thread is ugly accusations and pseudo scientific BS along with a healthy dose of bitterness, then perhaps you would be happier posting in the Men's Clubhouse where your misogynistic ravings will be applauded.


A number of us here have some bitterness in our hearts. Well, let's face it, why would we need to TAM if we had no problems?  

I have never thought about it before, but I have been cheated on three times by three different partners (One affaired up, one left me for a woman -that's the magic of having a lover who is bi-sexual, but forgot to tell you- and my wife) and yes, I think that has engendered some bitterness in me. 

I try not to be bitter.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

GusPolinski said:


> I can understand that.
> 
> Still, for a wife (or a husband) to decide on Day X that she's done w/ her marriage, and then lie in wait for six months, a year, or whatever, all the while gathering resources, maintaining the status quo, making plans and preparations, etc...?
> 
> Let's be honest here, folks... that's deceitful, manipulative, and it smacks of a covert contract. Hell, it's worse than that, because there aren't any terms that the other spouse can actually meet in order to avoid divorce.


How? You advise on the Infidelity forum for spouses to gather resources, maintain the status quo, make plans and preparations for their exit. If a spouse is getting screwed over in a marriage, be it by a cheating partner or a partner who is totally devaluing/ignoring/hurting them, why would the advice not apply to both? In both cases one person is getting all their needs met at the expense of their spouse. Why is one "deceitful and manipulative" where the other is not?


----------



## turnera

3Xnocharm said:


> You are missing the point. It isn't about being able to afford someone to fix it. The H here isn't present or engaged with his wife or his own home for that matter. She came to him letting him know that these things need to be done, to the home they share TOGETHER, and she was just shut down and dismissed.


He has improved. SOMEtimes he'll fix something, if it's really important like the toilet he installed after 3 years (after I threatened to try to install it myself) or the water heater that HE needs to use. But most times, I'll look him in the eyes and say 'will you do something for me? I need ABC done because I can't pick it up (or don't know how)' and he'll look at me, not say a word, turn around, and go take a nap. Or go do something HE feels like working on. I told him recently that I'm no longer asking for what I need, since he does that, that I'm instead going to ask for something I DON'T want done, because what I DO want done has a better odds of being in that 'other' stuff he chooses to do instead of what I ask for.



> Would it be ok with H if the W didn't do any cooking, cleaning or laundry, since hell, he could just HIRE A MAID to do all of that, since they are living this posh lifestyle! (and for the record, their lifestyle may not be what you think depending on where they live.)


The ONE time I got him to notice, was after IC told me to ask him to take responsibility for just ONE chore. Anything. Just one. So I could mentally know that there was at least ONE thing I didn't have to be responsible for. He refused. Said he never knew his schedule. So - in a moment of bravado I haven't seen before or since - I just decided to stop doing his laundry. This was about 5 years after we moved here. 

When he finally ran out of clean clothes, he came in and started yelling at me, how dare I, who do I think I am, etc. I just said 'I ASKED you to take on one chore and you refused. So I had to think of one thing to take off my list, and your clothes seemed to be the one thing to affect me the least. So I stopped doing your laundry.' God, he was mad. But he did go and fix a sink that had been broken a couple years. So I did a load of his laundry. And then he went and fixed something else, so I did another load. Didn't last long, of course. Like every other time he promises and then just quits.

Guess it's time to pull that out again.


----------



## EleGirl

TNC said:


> SlowlyGoingCrazy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, you got me. I was bored with having to constantly nag him to do basic adult tasks. He didn't change in his appearance but I started to see him as a rebellious teenager that I had to Mommy, might as well be 500 pounds at that point because that's just as attractive and yes, I started to think I could do a lot better than a man who couldn't meet the very basic level of household needs, let alone getting into meeting my personal ones.
> 
> But some guys will always throw up their hands and claim "I wasn't me" and not see the real problem.
> 
> You can't even imagine how many times my H thought I must be cheating when it got really bad. I mean, why else would I be so ready to just leave? Why else could I have possibly fell out of love with him? You don't divorce because I didn't clean the livingroom. Well yes, you do. Eventually. When you've been so ignored, so disrespected, so taken for granted, so fed up for so long, you do.
> 
> 
> 
> Yesssssss!
> 
> And it's not about the cleaning. It's about the fact that they clearly don't give a sh*t if something is important to you because they aren't listening.
Click to expand...

I agree that a large portion of it about the “don't give a sh*t if something is important to you because they aren't listening.”

But I do think that it is also about the cleaning (or other chores). Why? Because having a spouse who acts like a brat teen and refuses to do his/her fair share of household chores and child care is an HUGE in-your-face insult. It’s also them not caring that you end up exhausted and over worked. And all the while they do their own thing. They are using you as a maid, or think of you as their doting mother.
It’s also about not fixing the roof/ceiling and letting the value of home deteriorate. It’s about refusing to move the boxes of their junk out of the living room for years, making the house unlivable. It’s about moving those boxes to the garage and refusing to get rid of the junk.. again making part of the house unlivable… thus reducing the family’s use of the house and letting it deteriorate in value. 

So yes it’s also about the refusal to do things that really need to be done and pushing it off on you.

There are things that need to be done. And if one person always refuses to do them, the other ends up doing it all. And that is a true show of not loving and caring for the person who it's all forced onto.

.


----------



## turnera

GusPolinski said:


> I can understand that.
> 
> Still, for a wife (or a husband) to decide on Day X that she's done w/ her marriage, and then lie in wait for six months, a year, or whatever, all the while gathering resources, maintaining the status quo, making plans and preparations, etc...?
> 
> Let's be honest here, folks... that's deceitful, manipulative, and it smacks of a covert contract. Hell, it's worse than that, because there aren't any terms that the other spouse can actually meet in order to avoid divorce.


Trust me, I've told my husband at least half a dozen times that I want to leave. Just a few weeks ago, in fact, I reminded him. STILL leaves his socks on the floor. Because I've conditioned him to believe I will never leave. My bad.


----------



## happy as a clam

Holland said:


> You forgot the small issue of the OP being edited to remove the reference to you becoming emotionally attached pre divorce to the OM. It's a forum, ppl get hammered everyday but don't hold on to it. Let it go for your own benefit, breath in, breath out and all that.


Oh for crying out loud, Holland.

I had hoped you would reach out to me, perhaps call a truce, because you and I were married to similar, mirror-image, "likely-gay" husbands.

But instead, you take this as another opportunity to beat me down, reduce my marriage to infidelity (although reasonable people would disagree).

How about some REAL courage -- PM me on what it's like to likely be married to a man who was GAY all along. He only hid it well.

Like you, I suffered though DECADES of neglect. If you want to hide behind the fact that "you waited a year' to figure it out *and I didn't*, then go ahead... If you ever want to reach out to someone who can TOTALLY relate to your sitch... Accomplished husband, perfect resume and accolades, doting wife, perfect kids, houses, vacations, yachts, second-homes, trust-funds, millions of dollars in the balance, set for life.....

I tried to reach out to you via PM. Never got a response...


----------



## OpenWindows

GusPolinski said:


> You dig deep, reach down, find your balls, spine, or whatever, and you put it all on the line...
> 
> "I'm tired of this. I can't live this way any more. I _won't_ live this way anymore. Starting today, things will begin to change; if they don't, I WILL be filing for divorce."


If that fails, you still need to gather your resources and make your plans. I have two small children, I couldn't just walk off into the sunset with them. I had to plan, and save, because children like to eat and to sleep in beds and stuff.

After all, we're taking about spouses who have been ignoring requests and threats for years. There's no guarantee they'll respond to a threat of divorce... it often becomes another case of them doing what they must to pacify the wife, then reverting to old habits. Many of these husbands don't really believe their wives will leave, so divorce sounds like an empty threat to them.

Then comes their wife's "planning to escape" mode.


----------



## GusPolinski

Therealbrighteyes said:


> How? You advise on the Infidelity forum all the time for spouses to gather resources, maintain the status quo, make plans and preparations for the inevitable. If a spouse is getting screwed over in a marriage, be it by a cheating partner or a partner who is totally devaluing/ignoring/hurting them, why would the advice not apply to both? In both cases one person is getting all their needs met at the expense of their spouse. Why is one "deceitful and manipulative" where the other is not?


Just so we're clear, I've never claimed that many of the methods that I've more or less endorsed over in CWI are anything other than deceitful and manipulative. In fact, many of them are _exactly_ that.

But the motive behind those methods is to get to a truth that is being actively hidden and/or denied by a spouse that is clearly behaving in such a way that would invite a certain level of scrutiny by anyone possessed of half a brain.

See the difference?


----------



## ExiledBayStater

TRy said:


> You live in a "4500-sq-ft *10-year-old house*"


I saw that and truly, honestly thought it had to be missing a zero. A new house doesn't have that much broken stuff to fix.

@turnera was your house actually built ten years ago?


----------



## GusPolinski

turnera said:


> Trust me, I've told my husband at least half a dozen times that I want to leave. Just a few weeks ago, in fact, I reminded him. STILL leaves his socks on the floor. Because I've conditioned him to believe I will never leave. My bad.


OK, I had to laugh at that, because I do that all the time.

In my defense, our cat Phoebe loves to play w/ my socks.


----------



## turnera

EleGirl said:


> having a spouse who acts like a brat teen and refuses to do his/her fair share of household chores and child care is an HUGE in-your-face insult. It’s also them not caring that you end up exhausted and over worked. And all the while they do their own thing.


My H used to gripe about me not wanting to have sex every night. One night when I'd had enough of the guilt trip, I said 'well maybe if you would do some of the housework instead of expecting ME to do it all because I'm the woman, and me not having to work all day and then come home and work 4 or 5 MORE hours, I might not be too tired to do it!' 

Lo and behold, on the nights he was gonna want sex, I'd catch him putting dishes away or folding towels. I thought I was just seeing things but I started seeing the pattern; every time (as few as they were) he'd pick up or do dishes, he'd make a pass at me that night, lol. It only happens once every 6 months or so (the rest of the time he still expects sex anyway), but it's predictable. 

It's like he completely forgets about me wanting help and is content for me to be his mother/maid/companion, and then every 6 months or so, this lighbulb goes off and he remembers 'hey, she said that if I helped, I'd get some' and so he helps.

Better than nothing, I guess.


----------



## EleGirl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Some of the responses to this thread are mind blowing. A wife comes here to talk about why she left her marriage, what happened and what could have been done to prevent the demise of her marriage. Others have stated similar. Personal stories and experiences about a painful subject, the ending of a marriage due to neglect by theirs husbands. Instead of empathy and compassion, many of the responses have been insults and vitriol stating these wives are cheaters, liars, gold diggers, grass is greener syndrome, looking to trade up because some mythical timeline tells them to or boredom.
> 
> I have to ask, if a husband came here with a post stating that he left his marriage because his wife no longer cared about him, showed him he mattered or did the very basic things he asked of her, would the same responders call him a cheater, liar and the other insults? If not, perhaps some inner reflection is warranted as to why you feel that way about women, women whom you have never met, isn't personal to you in any way and yet respond to in such a manner.


There have been countless threads on TAM with men complaining about this exact thing. The men on these threads are given strong support here. They are told to tell the wife to fix the problems. If she will not, they men are told that they might want to consider divorce. 

So why are the women here being dismissed for the exact thing all those men get strong support for? Very disturbing.


----------



## happy as a clam

And one more thing Holland...

We're talking minimal time (1-2 weeks) of disclosing my feelings to this person before finally pulling the plug and filing for divorce. _*Sure, that's cheating. _ TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars wasted on marriage counseling with a husband who was likely (now confirmed) gay.

I'm sure you can NOW relate.

Trying to SEDUCE a husband who is into MEN, not WOMEN????

But go ahead, chalk my "treason" up to an arbitrary guideline -- "One year to 'sort it all out, no dating, no men"-- according to you...(isn't 20 years *in hell* long enough???). Especially when you confront the truth, that you're married to someone who is GAY??

F*cking a man (once every 2-3 YEARS) who would rather be f*cking a MAN???


----------



## GusPolinski

happy as a clam said:


> And one more thing Holland...
> 
> We're talking of meeting this person just weeks (as in one or two) before finally pulling the plug and filing for divorce. _*Sure, that's cheating. _ TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars wasted on marriage counseling with a husband who was likely (now confirmed) gay.
> 
> I'm sure you can NOW relate.
> 
> Trying to SEDUCE a husband who is into MEN, not WOMEN????
> 
> But go ahead, chalk my "treason" up to an arbitrary guideline (isn't 20 years *in hell* long enough???
> 
> F*cking a man (once every 2-3 YEARS) who would rather be f*cking a MAN???


Oh wow, your ex is gay?

And he married you?

What a douche.


----------



## john117

ExiledBayStater said:


> I saw that and truly, honestly thought it had to be missing a zero. A new house doesn't have that much broken stuff to fix.
> 
> @turnera was your house actually built ten years ago?


If it was built by a less than clueful local guy or less than honest larger company, it would.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

GusPolinski said:


> Just so we're clear, I've never claimed that many of the methods that I've more or less endorsed over in CWI are anything other than deceitful and manipulative. In fact, many of them are _exactly_ that.
> 
> But the motive behind those methods is to get to a truth that is being actively hidden and/or denied by a spouse that is clearly behaving in such a way that would invite a certain level of scrutiny by anyone possessed of half a brain.
> 
> See the difference?


A WAW is also being denied by a spouse, actively. Behavior that as you put it "would invite a certain level of scrutiny by anyone possessed of half a brain". Why do the ends justify the means in infidelity but not in emotional abandonment? She is doing exactly the same thing, biding her time until she is ready with her trump card, just like the betrayed ones do with VAR recordings, keylogger data, etc.


----------



## happy as a clam

GusPolinski said:


> Oh wow, your ex is gay?
> 
> And he married you?
> 
> What a douche.


Spot on, Gus!

And now I am free!!!!!!!

(Divorce can be an awesome vehicle to freedom).


----------



## john117

EleGirl said:


> There have been countless threads on TAM with men complaining about this exact thing. The men on these threads are given strong support here. They are told to tell the wife to fix the problems. If she will not, they men are told that they might want to consider divorce.
> 
> So why are the women here being dismissed for the exact thing all those men get strong support for? Very disturbing.


Because the magnitude of the issues is not the same.

Consider your typical nice guy who does everything for his wife and gets rewarded with sex once a quarter, if that. Versus the wife that doesn't get the husband to fix the sink or pick up socks and eventually walks...


----------



## EleGirl

knobcreek said:


> It's funny because I do all the yard-work, most of the laundry, cooking, cleaning, etc... my wife is a slob, she comes home kicks her heels off, tosses her bags on the floor, clothes on the floor to get into sweats, I walk around picking it all up. Do I complain sometimes? Yes. Would I ever divorce the mother of my children that I swore before God to stay with for that? No way...
> 
> At the end of the day I have a much higher capacity for work than my wife, I just do, I require less sleep and I can work without ceasing and I don't complain about hard work. I just accept it as a flaw of hers and move on, I have plenty too.
> 
> This is where either men and women are different, or the court system and the advantages women have allow them to divorce over such trivial reasons. I still think it goes back to being bored and wanting new experiences, and since they can take half the husbands wealth, the house, car, kids, etc... they really lose nothing in the divorce.


Well apparently you are a saint. This forum is not about saints 

How long have you been doing this?

There have been countless men who post on TAM who are not as willing to accept doing all of that. They are not a willing or able to work full time, do all the housework, all the cooking and all the child care. They are dismayed that their wives will not be more equal partners in all that it takes to run a family.. and they want either a way to get the wife to see that there is a problem and fix it, or they want to get a divorce. 

These men get lots of support from the men and women here on TAM through whatever path they chose. 

The next time a guy comes on with this attitude, I will be looking for you to tell him to shut up and put up.. you can give him that pep talk OK?

You might have the ultimate capacity to do everything and not care if your wife is unable to function as a normal adult. That's your choice. But just because you are like that, there is no reason to expect every other man and woman to be like you.

.


----------



## Holland

happy as a clam said:


> .........
> I tried to reach out to you via PM. Never got a response...


No PM was ever rx.

Regardless I don't think our situations are this so called WAW situations. My ex and I tried, we were not compatible, we were too entangled in the life we had created and too weak to end it earlier.
I'm not a WAW just a woman that tried her very best in a situation that was futile before it began.

Simply, I don't buy into the term WAW as it is a blame name. The issues behind it are real but also very complex.


----------



## GusPolinski

Therealbrighteyes said:


> *A WAW is also being denied by a spouse, actively.* Behavior that as you put it "would invite a certain level of scrutiny by anyone possessed of half a brain". Why do the ends justify the means in infidelity but not in emotional abandonment? She is doing exactly the same thing, biding her time until she is ready with her trump card, just like the betrayed ones do with VAR recordings, keylogger data, etc.


OK, but all of that is out in the open, correct?

Again, it's not really possible for one spouse to either abuse or neglect the other in such a way that the aggrieved spouse won't be aware of it.


----------



## turnera

ExiledBayStater said:


> I saw that and truly, honestly thought it had to be missing a zero. A new house doesn't have that much broken stuff to fix.
> 
> @turnera was your house actually built ten years ago?


Well, it's 12 years old now. We bought it brand new. And yes, it does have that many things to fix. And it's an expensive house. But when you never maintain it, things tend to break. Mold on the siding. Window screens ripped out and never replaced. Garage door opener broke during a hurricane 6 years ago and never replaced (he DID buy a new garage door opener unit this month; we'll see how long it takes him to install it); we've been pulling the lawnmower in and out of the garage through the little human door for 6 years. Wrought iron fence rusted out and swinging 4 years ago. Holes in two places in the ceiling from leaking roof and from stepping through the ceiling, 10 years ago. Carpet pad missing in the hallway after a sink faucet broke and flooded it 5 years ago. Broken toilet not replaced for 3 years, replaced this summer; now THIS one is broken and he just locked the door so we wouldn't use it. Flooring bought 15 months ago to replace peed-on carpet that's been sitting under our bed the whole time. Stove vent broken and not replaced for 8 months until I bought one and tried to replace it myself. Second water heater stopped working and wasn't replaced for 9 months; daughter used spare bedroom's shower for 9 months instead of her own.

I could go on. And on. He doesn't work on this stuff because it doesn't 'feel good' and he'd rather spend his time doing things that make him look good to everyone else, like volunteering or doing sound for bands. This is the exact same thing that happened to our LAST house, the one it took him 4 years to get around to fixing it enough to be sellable. Any time I'd ask him to fix something, he'd either ignore me or _literally _pull his hair and scream "I can't deal with this right now!" and go back to whatever he was doing.


----------



## GusPolinski

CopperTop said:


> Which is exactly what I did. Nothing changed except for the worse.
> 
> So now, I am running out the clock.


In what way would you say that you're "running out the clock"?

Are you waiting for someone to graduate high school or college?


----------



## OpenWindows

john117 said:


> Because the magnitude of the issues is not the same.
> 
> Consider your typical nice guy who does everything for his wife and gets rewarded with sex once a quarter, if that. Versus the wife that doesn't get the husband to fix the sink or pick up socks and eventually walks...


If the nice guy does everything for his wife and she gives him sex once a quarter, and the WAW does everything for her husband and gets rewarded with a break from laundry duty once a quarter, are they really so different?

It kind of looks like the same situation from different genders, to me.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

EleGirl said:


> There have been countless threads on TAM with men complaining about this exact thing. The men on these threads are given strong support here. They are told to tell the wife to fix the problems. If she will not, they men are told that they might want to consider divorce.
> 
> So why are the women here being dismissed for the exact thing all those men get strong support for? Very disturbing.


Indeed. She never said "all husbands" or "all men", she was advising what would have worked for her and what didn't. She made suggestions to other husbands who are in this situation or may be in this situation. For whatever reason, several took it as a personal attack and made it all about them. Rantings about cheaters, gold diggers, child custody, shouting in all caps, etc. It's one of the most unhinged threads I have seen in years,_ by men who had to make it all about them. _

I've been gone from this place for over a year. Maybe I should make it permanent. Who needs this sh!t. Jesus.


----------



## turnera

john117 said:


> Because the magnitude of the issues is not the same.
> 
> Consider your typical nice guy who does everything for his wife and gets rewarded with sex once a quarter, if that. Versus the wife that doesn't get the husband to fix the sink or pick up socks and eventually walks...


Now see, YOUR reward (hoped for) was sex. MY reward was living in a house I wasn't ashamed of. 

Neither of us is getting what we want, and both of us should be free to go find someone who WILL care about what we want, no?


----------



## GusPolinski

turnera said:


> john117 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because the magnitude of the issues is not the same.
> 
> Consider your typical nice guy who does everything for his wife and gets rewarded with sex once a quarter, if that. Versus the wife that doesn't get the husband to fix the sink or pick up socks and eventually walks...
> 
> 
> 
> Now see, YOUR reward (hoped for) was sex. MY reward was living in a house I wasn't ashamed of.
> 
> Neither of us is getting what we want, and both of us should be free to go find someone who WILL care about what we want, no?
Click to expand...

OK, stupid question... are @turnera and @john117 married?

As in to each other?


----------



## EleGirl

just got it 55 said:


> THE SIMPLE SOLUTION IS THIS:
> 
> Wife: I am not happy I have discussed this /these issues over and over and you have not heard a word or if you did you have not acted on them.
> 
> Husband: I thought I have been I don't know what you want.
> 
> Wife: If you want to save this marriage and you feel that I am not being clear Hear This
> 
> MC now get to our issues with an MC guiding our dialog
> 
> If not I am out Gone never to return.
> 
> Clear enough?
> 
> 
> The rest is on him If the wife's demands are unreasonable (In His Mind) and he is in a position that he doesn't want to live with it that's his boundary and his choice to let her go.
> 
> 55


Yep should be clear enough. If you read through this thread and through other threads posted by the women posting here, they have been very clear. I know that I was extremely clear. I even wrote it down and had him sign it to prove that he’d read. Made no difference. 

But you know what? It usually is not. Even going to counseling usually does not help. Even leaving does not help if you go back to them. Why? Because if you go back to them, they will think that everything is cool and go back to doing the same old stuff.

So in the end, there are only two choices left: 1) stay and accept a marriage in which your concerns are ignored. 2) Leave as you said you would if he is unwilling to meet your needs (see “His Needs, Her Needs” and “Love Busters”)

Most men and women who find themselves in a marriage where their spouse ignores their needs do try #1 for a while, often years. But they cannot do it so then they go to #2.


----------



## CopperTop

GusPolinski said:


> In what way would you say that you're "running out the clock"?
> 
> Are you waiting for someone to graduate high school or college?


In effect, yes. 

<ETA>
I neglected to answer the second part of your question.

I have stopped pressing for change and allow the dysfunctional dynamic continue without complaint or attempt to change it. I have accepted this is they way the marriage will always be.
</ETA>

I didn't fully understand the Walk Away Wife term until this thread. I thought it meant a wife that walked away for no reason other than a selfish desire to "find herself" or some other cliched idea.

But having read this thread I have clearer understanding of what it means to most people. The thought that enters my mind most often reading this is, "Why did you wait so long?"

I do want to remind everyone, this Walk Away Wife term should actually be Walk Away Spouse. Men don't have a monopoly on this type of behavior.


----------



## Cosmos

Therealbrighteyes said:


> It's one of the most unhinged threads I have seen in years,_ by men who had to make it all about them. _
> 
> I've been gone from this place for over a year. Maybe I should make it permanent. Who needs this sh!t. Jesus.


I ask myself this quite often. TAM has to be one of the most unhealthy forums I've ever belonged to.


----------



## john117

OpenWindows said:


> If the nice guy does everything for his wife and she gives him sex once a quarter, and the WAW does everything for her husband and gets rewarded with a break from laundry duty once a quarter, are they really so different?
> 
> It kind of looks like the same situation from different genders, to me.


In other words, sex is laundry and the like. A chore. 

Q.E.D.


----------



## john117

turnera said:


> Now see, YOUR reward (hoped for) was sex. MY reward was living in a house I wasn't ashamed of.
> 
> Neither of us is getting what we want, and both of us should be free to go find someone who WILL care about what we want, no?


I'd rather live in my daughter's 600 sq ft studio apartment and be happy. My wife can't fathom living in 4500 sq ft. I'm sure post divorce she will reconsider.

Expectations management is crucial here.


----------



## OpenWindows

john117 said:


> In other words, sex is laundry and the like. A chore.
> 
> Q.E.D.


No. Men need sex to feel emotionally connected. Women need to feel heard to feel emotionally connected.

If the woman is asking for help, and she is ignored, she does not feel heard.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

GusPolinski said:


> OK, but all of that is out in the open, correct?
> 
> Again, it's not really possible for one spouse to either abuse or neglect the other in such a way that the aggrieved spouse won't be aware of it.


I think it's a matter of perspective. Not sure how to put this and I know my wording will be off, so bear with me. Many WAW's have spent years trying to fix a marriage and gotten little support from their husband. In my situation, he always told me he was happy and everything is cool. The reality however was he wasn't happy and everything wasn't cool. He was punishing me for hurts in our past. Ignoring me was his method. So all those years I'm thinking he really does think all is well, maybe it's just me? It wasn't. That's very deceptive.
I think many marriages operate like this. The WAW beats her head against a wall trying to make things work and the husband actively denies her for his own reasons but was unwilling to say it. Is it as bad as infidelity? Certainly not. It is however lying and betrayal to a varying degree.


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> Not to worry. I am that person and was actually called worse by the peanut gallery...
> 
> The peanut gallery isn't very good collectively in formulating responses... Individual tidbits, yes, but overall collectivethink gets in the way of rationality.
> 
> I gotta ask, if divorce laws didn't favor women as much, would 20,000 instances of sock pickup feature so prominently as divorce causes?


Why are you so hung up on Tunera’s 20,000 socks comments? You know her story. Her issues are 1000 times more than socks. The socks were just an example of how her husband uses her as a maid.

Men keep saying that divorce favors women so much. I don’t see that. It certainly did not favor me. Nor did they favor my friends or my sisters. Not one got alimony. Not one actually received any child support even if it was court ordered. 

Where is this great court favoritism?


----------



## john117

GusPolinski said:


> OK, stupid question... are @turnera and @john117 married?
> 
> As in to each other?


Does @turnera like cats, bourbon, basketball, cycling, and driving small cars? If so... 

Yesterday I decided to check out a dating site specifically for people from my birth country. Let's just say that my original plan of two Maine ***** is more appealing


----------



## john117

OpenWindows said:


> No. Men need sex to feel emotionally connected. Women need to feel heard to feel emotionally connected.
> 
> If the woman is asking for help, and she is ignored, she does not feel heard.


I know - but there are instances where the other side is empty emotionally. What I call "emotional Alzheimer's". Pity it took me this long to recognize it, despite a decade of psychology education and my favorite grandfather having Alzheimer's.

What you described is accurate for many people. But we are in the, as the quote went, in the "Beyond part of Bed, Bath, and Beyond"...


----------



## turnera

GusPolinski said:


> In what way would you say that you're "running out the clock"?
> 
> Are you waiting for someone to graduate high school or college?


Gus, CT has to wait to leave because his wife threatened to take their son out of his very-desired (by the son) private school if CT left now. So he's basically being held hostage.


----------



## OpenWindows

john117 said:


> I know - but there are instances where the other side is empty emotionally. What I call "emotional Alzheimer's". Pity it took me this long to recognize it, despite a decade of psychology education and my favorite grandfather having Alzheimer's.
> 
> What you described is accurate for many people. But we are in the, as the quote went, in the "Beyond part of Bed, Bath, and Beyond"...


Wait... are you talking about your marriage, or WAWs and their unmet needs?

Who in the WAW scenario is emotionally empty?


----------



## turnera

EleGirl said:


> Yep should be clear enough. If you read through this thread and through other threads posted by the women posting here, they have been very clear. I know that I was extremely clear. I even wrote it down and had him sign it to prove that he’d read. Made no difference.
> 
> But you know what? It usually is not. Even going to counseling usually does not help.


I took mine to counseling twice. The first time, he stormed out when it became clear the MC wanted HIM to address certain things, and he never went back. The second time, he nodded, agreed, went home each time (I think 8 sessions), and promptly did NOTHING. And then quit going.

Again, the fault is mine. He has NO belief that I will ever leave. And I have to admit, if I had a ton of money it would be easier to leave, but even then I'm my own worst enemy.


----------



## john117

EleGirl said:


> Why are you so hung up on Tunera’s 20,000 socks comments? You know her story. Her issues are 1000 times more than socks. The socks were just an example of how her husband uses her as a maid.
> 
> Men keep saying that divorce favors women so much. I don’t see that. It certainly did not favor me. Nor did they favor my friends or my sisters. Not one got alimony. Not one actually received any child support even if it was court ordered.
> 
> Where is this great court favoritism?


Symbolism.... A literary curse I inherited from my younger daughter.

Incidentally, my mother picked the requisite 20k socks times three (two boys and my dad), worked full time, and never complained. To her, problems were "a Jerry patrol interrupted your WW2 pilot rescue mission" or "the Luftwaffe dive bombers hit the barn", or " the corrupt government cheated me out of a full pension because I blew the whistle ", not socks or chores.


----------



## john117

OpenWindows said:


> Wait... are you talking about your marriage, or WAWs and their unmet needs?
> 
> Who in the WAW scenario is emotionally empty?


I'm the likely and soon to be WAH


----------



## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> Well apparently you are a saint. This forum is not about saints
> 
> How long have you been doing this?
> 
> There have been countless men who post on TAM who are not as willing to accept doing all of that. They are not a willing or able to work full time, do all the housework, all the cooking and all the child care. They are dismayed that their wives will not be more equal partners in all that it takes to run a family.. and they want either a way to get the wife to see that there is a problem and fix it, or they want to get a divorce.
> 
> These men get lots of support from the men and women here on TAM through whatever path they chose.
> 
> The next time a guy comes on with this attitude, I will be looking for you to tell him to shut up and put up.. you can give him that pep talk OK?
> 
> You might have the ultimate capacity to do everything and not care if your wife is unable to function as a normal adult. That's your choice. But just because you are like that, there is no reason to expect every other man and woman to be like you.
> 
> .


I'm another one. My wife leaves her underwear on the bathroom floor. I do the laundry (she puts our clothes away.... eventually). I do the dishes. I pick up what she leaves laying around. I do the ironing. Early on, there were some things that I wanted her to do (feed the cats for one) but she had trouble managing those, so I decided to stop getting pissed about it and just started feeding the damn cats. Neither of us cooks much (her more than me).

She's lazy and she'll ask me (with chronic pain) to get her tea or something else from the kitchen when she's retired to the bedroom for the night (if I don't offer first).

The thing is that none of these things mattered to me in a wife. I'm a naturally energetic person that likes doing stuff (I've slowly discovered that I actually like coming home after work and doing some chores). I'm a giver and I'm not comfortable having others do things for me.

But, I told her that she'd HAVE to walk the dog in the morning if we got one and she has never asked me to do it for her. Since I finally got around to making her understand how important blowjobs were to me, she drops to knees at the slightest hint. I don't need much, but when I do and I let her know (key point), she gives it to me. She's absolutely crazy about me and let's me know that every day.

So, it's not just about who does what. It's about both partners caring about each other's happiness. That's all.

It's just astonishing to me how many people I know (or hear about) who have such crappy marriages. 

It's like nobody's even trying.
.


----------



## OpenWindows

john117 said:


> I'm the likely and soon to be WAH


Ah, got it. Good luck to you!

My point is that a WAW's unmet emotional needs are no less important than the unmet needs of a man in a sexless marriage. I thought you were arguing otherwise, but maybe I misunderstood.


----------



## CopperTop

Buddy400 said:


> I'm another one. My wife leaves her underwear on the bathroom floor. I do the laundry (she puts our clothes away.... eventually). I do the dishes. I pick up what she leaves laying around. I do the ironing. Early on, there were some things that I wanted her to do (feed the cats for one) but she had trouble managing those, so I decided to stop getting pissed about it and just started feeding the damn cats. Neither of us cooks much (her more than me).
> 
> She's lazy and she'll ask me (with chronic pain) to get her tea or something else from the kitchen when she's retired to the bedroom for the night (if I don't offer first).
> 
> The thing is that none of these things mattered to me in a wife. I'm a naturally energetic person that likes doing stuff (I've slowly discovered that I actually like coming home after work and doing some chores). I'm a giver and I'm not comfortable having others do things for me.
> 
> But, I told her that she'd HAVE to walk the dog in the morning if we got one and she has never asked me to do it for her. Since I finally got around to making her understand how important blowjobs were to me, she drops to knees at the slightest hint. I don't need much, but when I do and I let her know (key point), she gives it to me. She's absolutely crazy about me and let's me know that every day.
> 
> So, it's not just about who does what. It's about both partners caring about each other's happiness. That's all.
> 
> It's just astonishing to me how many people I know (or hear about) who have such crappy marriages.
> 
> It's like nobody's even trying.
> .


Now, imagine doing all of that and STILL she wouldn't give you the one or two things that's important to you. That is what this thread is all about, and even though I'm a guy, I TOTALLY get it. 

You hit the nail on the head when you said, "It's about both partners caring about each other's happiness." The partner doesn't care.

It's not about about socks, dishes, or anything else. It's about caring for someone other than yourself.


----------



## john117

OpenWindows said:


> Ah, got it. Good luck to you!
> 
> My point is that a WAW's unmet emotional needs are no less important than the unmet needs of a man in a sexless marriage. I thought you were arguing otherwise, but maybe I misunderstood.


I can argue about the magnitude of the response...


----------



## OpenWindows

john117 said:


> I can argue about the magnitude of the response...


Isn't leaving the response in both cases?


----------



## turnera

john117 said:


> Symbolism.... A literary curse I inherited from my younger daughter.
> 
> Incidentally, my mother picked the requisite 20k socks times three (two boys and my dad), worked full time, and never complained. To her, problems were "a Jerry patrol interrupted your WW2 pilot rescue mission" or "the Luftwaffe dive bombers hit the barn", or " the corrupt government cheated me out of a full pension because I blew the whistle ", not socks or chores.


Sorry to disappoint you by being so petty, then.


----------



## turnera

Buddy400 said:


> I'm another one. My wife leaves her underwear on the bathroom floor. I do the laundry (she puts our clothes away.... eventually). I do the dishes. I pick up what she leaves laying around. I do the ironing. Early on, there were some things that I wanted her to do (feed the cats for one) but she had trouble managing those, so I decided to stop getting pissed about it and just started feeding the damn cats. Neither of us cooks much (her more than me).
> 
> She's lazy and she'll ask me (with chronic pain) to get her tea or something else from the kitchen when she's retired to the bedroom for the night (if I don't offer first).
> 
> The thing is that none of these things mattered to me in a wife. I'm a naturally energetic person that likes doing stuff (I've slowly discovered that I actually like coming home after work and doing some chores). I'm a giver and I'm not comfortable having others do things for me.
> 
> But, I told her that she'd HAVE to walk the dog in the morning if we got one and she has never asked me to do it for her. Since I finally got around to making her understand how important blowjobs were to me, she drops to knees at the slightest hint. I don't need much, but when I do and I let her know (key point), she gives it to me. She's absolutely crazy about me and let's me know that every day.
> 
> So, it's not just about who does what. It's about both partners caring about each other's happiness. That's all.


As I've said, I would HAPPILY do all the housework, *if *he were caring about what matters to ME and taking care of the things that either I'm not capable of doing or he won't let me pay someone else to do. My IC actually gave me the number of a handyman so I could change this dynamic by no longer depending on him, but even if I save up the money to get things fixed, I'm still mentally afraid of the fight I'll have to endure once I make that phone call. H knows how to do everything and so in his mind we should NEVER pay anyone else to do any of it. But I can't do it myself and he will never get around to it. So I'm held hostage unless and until I get over my fear of confrontation.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I really really hope that there are going to be some men who check out this thread and glean from it the message that was intended. Because most of the men actually posting here are only driving home the whole point of the thread...not listening, dismissing, diminishing. Why would you come here and argue with the real life experience of the posters? This is not opinions...this is not man bashing...this is what has ACTUALLY happened to us within our marriages or LTR's. ALL MEN are NOT included here, because not all men have behaved in this way in their marriages. OURS DID. Sad to say but I am afraid that the men arguing here either HAD a WAW and still fail to see their part in what happened, or will end up with a WAW. Put aside your pride and read with an open mind, stop being on the defensive. There is a lot of good that can come from this.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

3Xnocharm said:


> I really really hope that there are going to be some men who check out this thread and glean from it the message that was intended. Because most of the men actually posting here are only driving home the whole point of the thread...not listening, dismissing, diminishing. Why would you come here and argue with the real life experience of the posters? This is not opinions...this is not man bashing...this is what has ACTUALLY happened to us within our marriages or LTR's. ALL MEN are NOT included here, because not all men have behaved in this way in their marriages. OURS DID. Sad to say but I am afraid that the men arguing here either HAD a WAW and still fail to see their part in what happened, or will end up with a WAW. Put aside your pride and read with an open mind, stop being on the defensive. There is a lot of good that can come from this.


A woman comes here to say her marriage ended because her husband didn't listen to or acknowledge her feelings. Instead of listening to her and acknowledging what she said, a bunch of men totally dismissed her, called her names, said they knew better, called her a fraud, made sweeping generalizations about her motives, implied she left for someone else, called her a gold digger, belittled her........all while proclaiming what great listeners and husbands they are/were. The irony is thick.


----------



## EleGirl

GusPolinski said:


> To be fair, if you've put in 6+ years of hard work aimed at improving your marriage, I wouldn't think it either fair or accurate for anyone to refer to you as a WAW.
> 
> Just my $0.02 USD.


But that is the definition of a WAW.

http://divorcebusting.com/a_walkaway_wife.htm


----------



## Blondilocks

Turnera, I haven't had that many house problems in 40 years of owning a home. It sounds as if someone is deliberately destroying your home. Why do things break?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Red Sonja said:


> Epic post @SurpriseMyself. You have concisely described what happened to my marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> I did. Had no effect whatsoever.





OpenWindows said:


> She's saying that the husband can help prevent the end of the marriage by taking his wife's needs seriously. That is not the same as saying it's all his fault, but they both play a role. She needs to communicate her needs instead of "checking out", and he needs to hear them and address them. If only one spouse is doing their part, the marriage will end.
> 
> After all, it's not very effective to tell an unhappy wife to fix her marriage without help from her husband. If these things could be fixed from one side only, this website wouldn't exist.


Assumes the other party is interested in fixing anything.

In my marriage (20 yrs ago), she walked away .. it _was_ my fault... I wasn't earning enough to kept up with the credit cards she was spending.....


----------



## EleGirl

knobcreek said:


> Or better yet, she can fix it herself. I can't understand why men are to help with the housework, but any heavy lifting, lawn work, weed picking, car work, caulking sinks, etc... still falls on him, and him alone.


As I recall, Tunera works for a living, does ALL of the housework, childcare, and the outdoor work. Did you miss that she mentioned 'her' lawnmower.

Her husband however will not allow her to fix the hire someone to fix the house nor will he allow her to do it. And if she is the major financial support and does everything else, why is it unreasonable to want him to do something?




knobcreek said:


> I still contest that most women in this state are blind, they're blind to what their husbands do do. They don't see the five hours of lawn work or snow shoveling as actual work, because they've never done it, so it doesn't compute.


Why do you assume that all men do five hours of lawn work, all that other stuff? 

I sure as hell never had a husband who did any of that.




knobcreek said:


> When the marriage hits this point it isn't about socks, it's about a hen-pecking wife looking for crap to dump on her husband about so she can justify her leaving.


Yep, all women have no legitimate concerns. We are just evil b!tches looking to take away all of your money (even if we are the bread winners... got it)

lol

.


----------



## EleGirl

technovelist said:


> I must have missed the post(s) where someone wants to make wives into slaves. Could you provide a cite for such a post?


Didn't you see the posts saying that women should not complain even if they are the breadwinner, do all of the work at home, all of the child care, etc? There are posts on this thread saying that women should just be happy to have their husband and stop nagging.


----------



## turnera

Blondilocks said:


> Turnera, I haven't had that many house problems in 40 years of owning a home. It sounds as if someone is deliberately destroying your home. Why do things break?


Well, the roof was leaking, so the ceiling messed up. The other hole was H building a floor in the attic when we moved in and stepping through. Sink leaked cos DD's hair clogged up the drain. Mold on siding...it's just what happens down here in the seawater air and humidity; we all fight it. We've had to replace all our appliances except the oven and stove. Houston is notorious for bad plumbing, maybe it's because all our houses are built by Mexican immigrants who don't give a crap. Garage door opener broke because it shorted out during the hurricane. The dogs destroyed the window screens. And the carpet. Most of these aren't structural things, just wear and tear. And hurricanes. And dogs.


----------



## Blondilocks

technovelist said:


> I must have missed the post(s) where someone wants to make wives into slaves. Could you provide a cite for such a post?


You quoted the source. Does it only resonate with you if a man says it?


----------



## EleGirl

TRy said:


> Let me rephrase that. "These are the guys being guys, this is something that some women just don't and never will get."


There are a lot of things being talked about here. What is guys just being guys?


----------



## Blondilocks

MattMatt said:


> A number of us here have some bitterness in our hearts. Well, let's face it, why would we need to TAM if we had no problems?
> 
> *I have never thought about it before*, but I have been cheated on three times by three different partners (One affaired up, one left me for a woman -that's the magic of having a lover who is bi-sexual, but forgot to tell you- and my wife) and yes, I think that has engendered some bitterness in me.
> 
> I try not to be bitter.


Really? You never thought "Damn, my woman picker's broken".

I haven't detected bitterness in your posts nor arrogance. Quite refreshing.


----------



## Anon Pink

happy as a clam said:


> And one more thing Holland...
> 
> We're talking minimal time (1-2 weeks) of disclosing my feelings to this person before finally pulling the plug and filing for divorce. _*Sure, that's cheating. _ TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars wasted on marriage counseling with a husband who was likely (now confirmed) gay.
> 
> I'm sure you can NOW relate.
> 
> Trying to SEDUCE a husband who is into MEN, not WOMEN????
> 
> But go ahead, chalk my "treason" up to an arbitrary guideline -- "One year to 'sort it all out, no dating, no men"-- according to you...(isn't 20 years *in hell* long enough???). Especially when you confront the truth, that you're married to someone who is GAY??
> 
> F*cking a man (once every 2-3 YEARS) who would rather be f*cking a MAN???


Like I said to you in your thread that you deleted, I personally would have given you a round of applause for stepping out on the husband you describe. What a lousy husband! I truly don't care that you met your current SO and began a relationship (EA) with him while married and living with your H. I say good for you! 

But when you enter into other threads wit cheating spouses you need to own your status as a former WW, even though IMO you totally deserved to find that new man.


----------



## Blondilocks

EleGirl said:


> There are a lot of things being talked about here. What is guys just being guys?


I believe he's referencing a comment about guys getting together and talking about how irrational their wives are. You know guys being guys = guys just being jerks. They probably light their farts on fire, too.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I work in a health clinic. One of the things I see fairly often is women bringing their husbands in to get their hearing checked because he's not hearing her properly. Almost all the time he has no hearing loss and they are shocked. But he doesn't hear anything I say! I feel bad for them, I see it in their eyes. It was like a last ditch effort for some kind of reason that he's not listening to her, something that would mean it's NOT that he just doesn't care.

I don't think some people understand that moment for us. The wake-up call between try, try, try and give up. At some point we get to the realization that he just doesn't care enough to hear us and nothing is going to fix it. It's not a good feeling, it's not "Yay! let's see what that greener grass feels like" It's a gut wrenching moment of how many years you just wasted trying to love a man who isn't capable of giving back, how hard it's going to be to leave, for the kids, for the home and family you just spent so long building. A lot of times you can get to the point of hopeful for your future alone, hopeful for a future partner who can meet your needs but that comes so, so much after the gut wrench is gone. 

You see it too in the SIM section, good men who have had this moment when no matter what they try they can't fix it. They too often just wait it out until they can leave, they too often just shut up and stop complaining, stop trying, and someday they walkaway.


----------



## tech-novelist

EleGirl said:


> Didn't you see the posts saying that women should not complain even if they are the breadwinner, do all of the work at home, all of the child care, etc? There are posts on this thread saying that women should just be happy to have their husband and stop nagging.


Slaves are people who are property and can be bought and sold. I haven't seen anyone suggest that wives should be made into slaves. Please cite that if it exists.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Blondilocks said:


> I believe he's referencing a comment about guys getting together and talking about how irrational their wives are. You know guys being guys = guys just being jerks. They probably light their farts on fire, too.


Ok now, lets not stoop to that level...:wink2:

I took guys being guys as them thinking that the things women are concerned with are much to trivial to pay any attention to. (as per someone's post a few pages back) Sad.


----------



## tech-novelist

Blondilocks said:


> You quoted the source. Does it only resonate with you if a man says it?


I have no idea what you are referring to. Has anyone suggested that wives be made into slaves, i.e., property that can be bought and sold? If so, please provide a cite to that post.


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> Because the magnitude of the issues is not the same.
> 
> Consider your typical nice guy who does everything for his wife and gets rewarded with sex once a quarter, if that. Versus the wife that doesn't get the husband to fix the sink or pick up socks and eventually walks...


It's as though you have not been reading the posts.

Not one woman on this thread has left, or wants to leave a husband just because he will not fix the sink or pick up socks. 

Your examples are from Tunera's posts. Did you read the rest of what has gone on in her marriage?

She is exactly like the typical nice guy you describe. She does everything for her husband and gets rewarded with sex once a quarter (actually about every 6 months), if that.

So why do you only 'hear' the complaints about the socks and the sink? 

I've also talked about my marriages. Please tell me how trivial I was in leaving my marriages. After all you seem to think that every woman who has posted about why they left their marriage did so for trivial reasons. So please point out how I was trivial.

.
.


----------



## alte Dame

This thread hits a very sore spot for me. I'm not a WAW, but I have definitely been in crisis such that I would bet that a therapist might label me a WAW in the making.

Instead, I guess I would call myself a finally-breaking-out-of-the-trap-that-I-created-for-myself wife.

My H would probably be considered a serious alpha guy. His professional ambition was always paramount. He loves me and the kids, but his work/travel life was so driving that we all catered to him. It was truly, 'That's how he is. If you love him, you have to accept it.'

The fallout of that ambition was huge over the years, however. It was always, 'H has a fabulous job offer in city A; if I don't agree to move, then he will be so resentful/disadvantaged/hurt (fill in the blank). Or 'H just has to work 14-hour days and travel half the time; our M would fall apart if I issued an ultimatum.' Or 'It's OK, kids. Dad (as usual) won't be around to go to your concert/award ceremony/graduation (fill in the blank). But you know he really loves you.'

Certainly, I talked until I was blue in the face about the issues as I saw them. He felt entitled to live his life to the fullest, which meant if he had some extra time, then he would go skiing/biking/hiking (fill in the blank) & make it clear that I was 'imposing my will' on him if I wanted him to spend time with our children.

Through 2+ decades of this I loved him but was gradually getting worn down and wondering why I just hadn't left. After all, I could have left. I could have left.

So, I feel that this is on me. I hit my mid-50's, with our children grown and much more freedom to live my daily life. I decided that I wasn't going to live anymore without having our serious issues resolved in some way.

I have worked on myself and pushed and pushed for serious discussion and solutions. It has been hard, but my H has finally stopped taking my presence and love for granted. And why shouldn't he have taken it for granted? I could have left at any time. I believe that I let him get comfortable with the paradigm that we had, even though it was hurting me.

What maddened me most was the sense that he actually felt like a martyr all those years. He told me that it was hard for him, but he had decided that he would live with my pain. Eff that.

Anyway, I finally struck a blow for sanity and freedom just a few years ago. No more crazy travel schedule that I have to just suck up. No more moving around the world and remaking my life so that he can find his work bliss. I'll meet him halfway, but he has to come the other half way.

If I had been a WAW, I don't think I would have thought it was about him taking me for granted. It would have been about me letting him take me for granted. Which I did. For years. I hated it & was hurt and resentful, but wanted to shield my kids and, quite honestly, I still had love.

My H has come around massively and our M is very different now. I think it's better. I had to bring things to a brink, however, to be able to continue to live in it.

End of my rant....Thanks for listening, TAM.


----------



## ocotillo

CopperTop said:


> It's not about about socks, dishes, or anything else. It's about caring for someone other than yourself.


I wish I could have said it that well. That really is what it boils down to.


----------



## lifeistooshort

EleGirl said:


> Well apparently you are a saint. This forum is not about saints
> 
> How long have you been doing this?
> 
> There have been countless men who post on TAM who are not as willing to accept doing all of that. They are not a willing or able to work full time, do all the housework, all the cooking and all the child care. They are dismayed that their wives will not be more equal partners in all that it takes to run a family.. and they want either a way to get the wife to see that there is a problem and fix it, or they want to get a divorce.
> 
> These men get lots of support from the men and women here on TAM through whatever path they chose.
> 
> The next time a guy comes on with this attitude, I will be looking for you to tell him to shut up and put up.. you can give him that pep talk OK?
> 
> You might have the ultimate capacity to do everything and not care if your wife is unable to function as a normal adult. That's your choice. But just because you are like that, there is no reason to expect every other man and woman to be like you.
> 
> .


Eh, trivial is highly subjective. Some might argue that a boring sex life is not a good reason to mess up kids lives, yet men here are encouraged to divorce over it all the time. 

I guess to some kids stability is less important then a guy having an exciting sex life.


I hope this poster will tell guys with unsatisfying sex lives that their wives just have less capacity for sex and it's not a good reason to mess up kids lives.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I think it's a matter of perspective. Not sure how to put this and I know my wording will be off, so bear with me. Many WAW's have spent years trying to fix a marriage and gotten little support from their husband. *In my situation, he always told me he was happy and everything is cool. The reality however was he wasn't happy and everything wasn't cool. He was punishing me for hurts in our past. Ignoring me was his method. So all those years I'm thinking he really does think all is well, maybe it's just me? It wasn't. That's very deceptive.*


I'd agree.



Therealbrighteyes said:


> I think many marriages operate like this. The WAW beats her head against a wall trying to make things work and the husband actively denies her for his own reasons but was unwilling to say it. Is it as bad as infidelity? Certainly not. It is however lying and betrayal to a varying degree.


I do see some of this in my friends' marriages, and I saw a LOT of it in my parents' marriage. It seems like a lot of guys are just afraid to talk w/ their wives, at least w/ respect to certain things. It's like they're constantly tiptoeing around certain conversations.

I tell my wife _just about_ everything. There are some things that I hold back, but that wasn't always the case. The events of the last few years have taught me that I probably shouldn't tell her everything. (I have a feeling that you're talking more specifically about men not listening to their wives' grievances or, at the very least, not taking them seriously.) Anyway, I guess it's possible that some things are just easier for us since we don't have children. I dunno.


----------



## ocotillo

EleGirl said:


> Well apparently you are a saint. This forum is not about saints


I wouldn't have used the word, "slob" be he pretty much described my wife too. 

My wife kicks off her shoes wherever she happens to be and only picks them up when that happens to be the pair she's looking for.

But I couldn't care less and that makes all the difference. 

Ultimately it comes down to caring about what our spouse cares about.


----------



## lifeistooshort

ocotillo said:


> I wouldn't have used the word, "slob" be he pretty much described my wife too.
> 
> My wife kicks off her she shoes wherever she happens to be and only picks them up when that happens to be the pair she's looking for.
> 
> But I couldn't care less and that makes all the difference.
> 
> Ultimately it comes down to caring about what our spouse cares about.


I agree. If it matters to your spouse it should matter to you.

That's why it's so unsettling to have a few guys here declaring what's trivial. If it bothers your spouse it's not trivial.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RoseAglow

GusPolinski said:


> I'd agree.
> 
> 
> 
> I do see some of this in my friends' marriages, and I saw a LOT of it in my parents' marriage. It seems like a lot of guys are just afraid to talk w/ their wives, at least w/ respect to certain things. It's like they're constantly tiptoeing around certain conversations.
> 
> I tell my wife _just about_ everything. There are some things that I hold back, but that wasn't always the case. The events of the last few years have taught me that I probably shouldn't tell her everything. (I have a feeling that you're talking more specifically about men not listening to their wives' grievances or, at the very least, not taking them seriously.) Anyway, I guess it's possible that some things are just easier for us since we don't have children. I dunno.


Intimate conversation is the top emotional need for the average woman. It works best when it goes both ways, no one wants to feel like they are just talking at someone. I'd guess that your wife feels loved and safe with you when you talk with her about nearly everything.


----------



## MattMatt

alte Dame said:


> This thread hits a very sore spot for me. I'm not a WAW, but I have definitely been in crisis such that I would bet that a therapist might label me a WAW in the making.
> 
> Instead, I guess I would call myself a finally-breaking-out-of-the-trap-that-I-created-for-myself wife.
> 
> My H would probably be considered a serious alpha guy. His professional ambition was always paramount. He loves me and the kids, but his work/travel life was so driving that we all catered to him. It was truly, 'That's how he is. If you love him, you have to accept it.'
> 
> The fallout of that ambition was huge over the years, however. It was always, 'H has a fabulous job offer in city A; if I don't agree to move, then he will be so resentful/disadvantaged/hurt (fill in the blank). Or 'H just has to work 14-hour days and travel half the time; our M would fall apart if I issued an ultimatum.' Or 'It's OK, kids. Dad (as usual) won't be around to go to your concert/award ceremony/graduation (fill in the blank). But you know he really loves you.'
> 
> Certainly, I talked until I was blue in the face about the issues as I saw them. He felt entitled to live his life to the fullest, which meant if he had some extra time, then he would go skiing/biking/hiking (fill in the blank) & make it clear that I was 'imposing my will' on him if I wanted him to spend time with our children.
> 
> Through 2+ decades of this I loved him but was gradually getting worn down and wondering why I just hadn't left. After all, I could have left. I could have left.
> 
> So, I feel that this is on me. I hit my mid-50's, with our children grown and much more freedom to live my daily life. I decided that I wasn't going to live anymore without having our serious issues resolved in some way.
> 
> I have worked on myself and pushed and pushed for serious discussion and solutions. It has been hard, but my H has finally stopped taking my presence and love for granted. And why shouldn't he have taken it for granted? I could have left at any time. I believe that I let him get comfortable with the paradigm that we had, even though it was hurting me.
> 
> What maddened me most was the sense that he actually felt like a martyr all those years. He told me that it was hard for him, but he had decided that he would live with my pain. Eff that.
> 
> Anyway, I finally struck a blow for sanity and freedom just a few years ago. No more crazy travel schedule that I have to just suck up. No more moving around the world and remaking my life so that he can find his work bliss. I'll meet him halfway, but he has to come the other half way.
> 
> If I had been a WAW, I don't think I would have thought it was about him taking me for granted. It would have been about me letting him take me for granted. Which I did. For years. I hated it & was hurt and resentful, but wanted to shield my kids and, quite honestly, I still had love.
> 
> My H has come around massively and our M is very different now. I think it's better. I had to bring things to a brink, however, to be able to continue to live in it.
> 
> End of my rant....Thanks for listening, TAM.


So he could be there with you to help make babies with you, but he couldn't be bothered to help you be there for them, with you?:slap:

There are Walk Away Wives and Chased Away Wives.

And I have an idea which category you would fit in.


----------



## MattMatt

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree. If it matters to your spouse it should matter to you.
> 
> That's why it's so unsettling to have a few guys here declaring what's trivial. If it bothers your spouse it's not trivial.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


WIFE: "This whole room is a mess! It is a pig sty!"

ME: "But I just did the dusting? What's wrong?"

Two ornaments on the mantelpiece had been transposed and placed 10 to 20cm further along.

And that meant the room was a mess and a pig sty.

It was that conversation that made me realise there was something different about my wife.


----------



## AliceA

I've seen the WAW in all it's detail from an outside perspective. The wife in this case didn't leave but has been emotionally drained. Every day I see her harden a little more, the pain is buried a little deeper or the presence of it has become such an integral part to her that she doesn't notice it as much now. I have seen her break down and cry, once in the last 2 years. The rest of the time she seems to no longer care. It's water off a duck's back. Leaving him early in their marriage didn't change anything for the long term.

From all appearances, he hasn't even noticed, but when he gets drunk, it all comes out. "She doesn't love me" "She wouldn't care if I died" sort of stuff.

I know she would be very hurt, that her grief would be very real if he wasn't there, but I think there would also be relief... how sad is that.


----------



## EleGirl

MattMatt said:


> WIFE: "This whole room is a mess! It is a pig sty!"
> 
> ME: "But I just did the dusting? What's wrong?"
> 
> Two ornaments on the mantelpiece had been transposed and placed 10 to 20cm further along.
> 
> And that meant the room was a mess and a pig sty.
> 
> It was that conversation that made me realise there was something different about my wife.


Gads, that sounds like my second husband... :surprise:


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

If my H ever dusted I don't even know what I would do with myself. Right now I'll settle for him taking his glass of old juice from the bedroom table to the sink. He thinks I will and before, I would have just eventually done it myself after waiting and asking him to do it several times. But I'm not. We had a big turn around and part of that was that I don't do the things I ask him to. If I do, I will get resentful again.
It's literally growing mold at this point. I still refuse. It's become a symbol of our battle of wills, just sitting there molding on the bedside table, waiting for someone to finally take it out, empty it and soak it. He actually laughed about the fact that he's leaving it because he knows I'll just do it eventually. 

But I feel better leaving it sit than if I got annoyed enough to just do it myself like I always used to. And it's on his side so I try to just ignore it.


----------



## TRy

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree. If it matters to your spouse it should matter to you.
> 
> That's why it's so unsettling to have a few guys here declaring what's trivial. If it bothers your spouse it's not trivial.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 The "If it matters to your spouse it should matter to you" line of thinking sounds good on paper, but when you apply it to real life, it often does not work. In fact many walk away wives are unhappy because they have allowed themselves to be taken advantage of by a spouse that has a never ending list of things that matter to them. There are examples of this happening even on this thread.

Guys think differently than women. We do not have the same needs or wants as women and we sometimes do not understand the significance of things, but that is also true of women in not understanding men. One book that helped my marriage was "His Needs Her Needs". We both discovered that although we both were making efforts to meet the needs of the other, we were doing this based on the false assumption that what we needed was the same thing as what the other needed. There was a lot of wasted efforts on the wrong things. Thus me having sex with her was not going to make things better, when what she really needed was the ability to talk things out with me. For me, rather than talk things out, she can often just give me some great sex and everything is cool LOL.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

just got it 55 said:


> I have to disagree in my case Although I thought the possibility of my wife leaving was very real She would have never said a word except goodbye
> 
> 55


So you thought it a very real possibility that she would leave, meaning you knew she was unhappy, but you didn't bring it up?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ocotillo

TRy said:


> The "If it matters to your spouse it should matter to you" line of thinking sounds good on paper...
> 
> ...we were doing this based on the false assumption that what we needed was the same thing as what the other needed.


I'm confused TRy. Aren't these two statements in perfect agreement? 

I don't buy into the notion that men and women are essentially the same under the skin and that gender is primarily a cultural construct. 

The needs of men and women (Generally speaking) are very, very different. 

Therefore understanding what is important to my wife would be a guilt-edged-priority. No?


----------



## just got it 55

SurpriseMyself said:


> So you thought it a very real possibility that she would leave, meaning you knew she was unhappy, but you didn't bring it up?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sure did But I need a crow bar to pry feeling out of her

Major conflict avoidance

Her only flaw.

So I went with my instinct and worked on me and our marriage She came along for the ride

55


----------



## SurpriseMyself

happy as a clam said:


> OP (SurpriseMyself)...
> 
> Your original post and subsequent ones in this thread are SPOT-ON.
> 
> I posted a similar thread -- in actuality, it was my original thread, *my story* -- on why my marriage failed.
> 
> My marriage was almost a mirror image of your own. I posted my "story" in hopes that it would help other lonely people (male or female) trapped in a lonely, loveless, emotion-less, lack-of-intimacy, *sexless* marriage. In hopes of helping others reconcile the fact that *they weren't really in a marriage at all.*
> 
> In very short order I was attacked vehemently on this site about how I was a CHEATER (I met someone who provoked all of the feelings inside of me that my husband had sought out to BURY in me). Before I ever pursued anything with this person, I filed for divorce. It was only after my divorce was filed and I was away from my ex that I even began to contemplate exploring a relationship with this person further.
> 
> Despite hundreds and hundreds of "likes" on my thread -- in fact, I received an outpouring of support from fellow TAMers trapped in a similar marriage -- I finally deleted the thread because it was causing me nothing but strife from others who wanted to continuously leave snarky comments about me, my morals, and my marriage. Angry responses on my thread, angry PMs, humor at my expense.
> 
> In my marriage, I went through YEARS (not days, weeks, or months) without ANY sex. My husband (LD, likely asexual, possibly gay) felt that lavish homes, plenty of money, and clout and prestige from his professional accolades was "more than enough" to keep the home fires burning.
> 
> Gay, LD, emotionally crippled, WHATEVER... if my husband would have met me EVEN HALFWAY as in meaningful counseling, getting to the roots of his issues -- a predatory cousin who made him do shameful things during sleepovers, his alcoholic father who beat him with a coat hanger at the dinner table, his "Little-Man/Napolean complex" (5'8", 155 lbs) -- we might have been able to work this out. He lived his life feeling emasculated from FOO issues. But as the counselor told me, "Your husband is Teflon. Anything we try to 'get in' just gets bounced back. A counselor needs 'nooks and crannies' to get into one's psyche." My husband did not HAVE nooks and crannies. He had shut them all down decades before .
> 
> As it is, I divorced, pursued my attraction and affection for this other person, and am living the life of my dreams!! Life couldn't be better if I tried.
> 
> I have thought often of "resurrecting" my original thread as I received literally dozens, if not hundreds, of people thanking me for my honesty and willingness to spill my guts.
> 
> Sadly, I caved under the pressure of hostile posters and have chosen to leave that thread "undeleted."


Thank you, Happy. I don't know I have it in me to ever be with someone new, but glad to read your story as it turned out so well. As for angry TAMers, doesn't matter. Take the good and leave the rest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

ocotillo said:


> But I couldn't care less and that makes all the difference.
> 
> Ultimately it comes down to caring about what our spouse cares about.


I tried that for 30 years. And it got me nowhere but taken even MORE for granted. 

I suppose what you mean is if BOTH people care about what their spouse cares about.

But what if one of them doesn't? What if one of them LETS the other one care about them but doesn't see the need to reciprocate? Should the one who ensures the other is taken care of just continue that role until they die?


----------



## turnera

MattMatt said:


> WIFE: "This whole room is a mess! It is a pig sty!"
> 
> ME: "But I just did the dusting? What's wrong?"
> 
> Two ornaments on the mantelpiece had been transposed and placed 10 to 20cm further along.
> 
> And that meant the room was a mess and a pig sty.
> 
> It was that conversation that made me realise there was something different about my wife.


*sigh*

And, _again_, not the topic of this thread, not the type of women who become WAWs.

But I'm sorry you had to deal with that.


----------



## Red Sonja

Therealbrighteyes said:


> A woman comes here to say her marriage ended because her husband didn't listen to or acknowledge her feelings. Instead of listening to her and acknowledging what she said, a bunch of men totally dismissed her, called her names, said they knew better, called her a fraud, made sweeping generalizations about her motives, implied she left for someone else, called her a gold digger, belittled her........all while proclaiming what great listeners and husbands they are/were. The irony is thick.


You forgot one ... we are also accused of "re-writing marital history".


----------



## just got it 55

happy as a clam said:


> OP (SurpriseMyself)...
> 
> Your original post and subsequent ones in this thread are SPOT-ON.
> 
> I posted a similar thread -- in actuality, it was my original thread, *my story* -- on why my marriage failed.
> 
> My marriage was almost a mirror image of your own. I posted my "story" in hopes that it would help other lonely people (male or female) trapped in a lonely, loveless, emotion-less, lack-of-intimacy, *sexless* marriage. In hopes of helping others reconcile the fact that *they weren't really in a marriage at all.*
> 
> In very short order I was attacked vehemently on this site about how I was a CHEATER (I met someone who provoked all of the feelings inside of me that my husband had sought out to BURY in me). Before I ever pursued anything with this person, I filed for divorce. It was only after my divorce was filed and I was away from my ex that I even began to contemplate exploring a relationship with this person further.
> 
> Despite hundreds and hundreds of "likes" on my thread -- in fact, I received an outpouring of support from fellow TAMers trapped in a similar marriage -- I finally deleted the thread because it was causing me nothing but strife from others who wanted to continuously leave snarky comments about me, my morals, and my marriage. Angry responses on my thread, angry PMs, humor at my expense.
> 
> In my marriage, I went through YEARS (not days, weeks, or months) without ANY sex. My husband (LD, likely asexual, possibly gay) felt that lavish homes, plenty of money, and clout and prestige from his professional accolades was "more than enough" to keep the home fires burning.
> 
> Gay, LD, emotionally crippled, WHATEVER... if my husband would have met me EVEN HALFWAY as in meaningful counseling, getting to the roots of his issues -- a predatory cousin who made him do shameful things during sleepovers, his alcoholic father who beat him with a coat hanger at the dinner table, his "Little-Man/Napolean complex" (5'8", 155 lbs) -- we might have been able to work this out. He lived his life feeling emasculated from FOO issues. But as the counselor told me, "Your husband is Teflon. Anything we try to 'get in' just gets bounced back. A counselor needs 'nooks and crannies' to get into one's psyche." My husband did not HAVE nooks and crannies. He had shut them all down decades before .
> 
> As it is, I divorced, pursued my attraction and affection for this other person, and am living the life of my dreams!! Life couldn't be better if I tried.
> 
> I have thought often of "resurrecting" my original thread as I received literally dozens, if not hundreds, of people thanking me for my honesty and willingness to spill my guts.
> 
> Sadly, I caved under the pressure of hostile posters and have chosen to leave that thread "undeleted."




And in the reverse my wife now says she has the marriage of her dreams 

So fellas If you get your sh!t together in time we can pull of and overtime victory and win the Super Bowl

Guys If you have *THIS* feeling get to the bottom of it because if the right woman sees your challenge to better yourself and your marriage It will pay off 

If you really make a true effort and you don't get the desired response do both of you a favor and file.

If your wife has put up with your sh!t She's worth the effort.

55


----------



## ocotillo

turnera said:


> I suppose what you mean is if BOTH people care about what their spouse cares about.


I'm not sure what the difference would be. If throwing my socks on the floor (I don't) mattered to my wife, it would matter to me. Therefore it would matter to us both.

But with my wife and her shoes, it doesn't matter to me and therefore doesn't matter to her either.

I hope that makes sense.


----------



## turnera

breeze said:


> I've seen the WAW in all it's detail from an outside perspective. The wife in this case didn't leave but has been emotionally drained. Every day I see her harden a little more, the pain is buried a little deeper or the presence of it has become such an integral part to her that she doesn't notice it as much now. I have seen her break down and cry, once in the last 2 years. The rest of the time she seems to no longer care.


This made me cry.

I used to cry a lot. Then I gave it up. Just lived.

But this made me cry. It's been so long since I really thought about all this, til I read this thread, actually. I'd just given up and moved on from day to day and quit thinking about how things could have been.

Gee, I make my H sound like a monster. He's not. He loves me like crazy. He's a moral man, helps everyone, is extremely honest and never cheats anyone. But his dysfunctions rule him.


----------



## turnera

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But I feel better leaving it sit than if I got annoyed enough to just do it myself like I always used to. And it's on his side so I try to just ignore it.


OMG, I have tried SO many different ways to get my H to take responsibility. I've tried asking. I've tried negotiating. I've tried reminding him. I've tried setting up a chore chart. I've tried making a to-do list. I've tried leaving his stuff where he drops it (for months). I've tried leaving it all on his side of the mattress (he pushes it off to the floor). I've tried leaving it on his side of the bed on the floor. I've tried getting a box and dumping all his stuff in the box. I've tried throwing his stuff away (he's dug through the trash). I've tried giving his stuff away (he's taken his stuff out of the Good Will box).


----------



## Adelais

turnera said:


> OMG, I have tried SO many different ways to get my H to take responsibility. I've tried asking. I've tried negotiating. I've tried reminding him. I've tried setting up a chore chart. I've tried making a to-do list. I've tried leaving his stuff where he drops it (for months). I've tried leaving it all on his side of the mattress (he pushes it off to the floor). I've tried leaving it on his side of the bed on the floor. I've tried getting a box and dumping all his stuff in the box. I've tried throwing his stuff away (he's dug through the trash). I've tried giving his stuff away (he's taken his stuff out of the Good Will box).


turnera, you have really hung in there and worn yourself out trying everything you can think of. Does he get an attitude? The attitude is part of what makes me want to walk away.


----------



## turnera

TRy said:


> We both discovered that although we both were making efforts to meet the needs of the other, we were doing this based on the false assumption that what we needed was the same thing as what the other needed. There was a lot of wasted efforts on the wrong things. Thus me having sex with her was not going to make things better, when what she really needed was the ability to talk things out with me. For me, rather than talk things out, she can often just give me some great sex and everything is cool LOL.


I read HNHN out loud to my H. He understands the concepts. I've even heard him discuss it to other people. I give him sex even though he knows I don't want it. He knows that I do. He used to give me all the stuff he wanted to get, as gifts: perfume/cologne, skin care stuff, nice clothes, jewelry, lingerie. I used to give him what I wanted him to have so he would help me: tools, storage. Until I read HNHN, and realized I had to stop giving him things to make ME happy, I had to instead make HIM happy, so I started giving him clothes and cologne and jewelry; he's a happy man. It took DD25 the past few years to make him understand that I wanted things to make the HOUSE better, not me. The past 3 years or so, I've finally started getting gifts that matter to me: vacuum cleaner, weed-eater, BBQ.

I guess it's a work in progress.


----------



## lifeistooshort

TRy said:


> The "If it matters to your spouse it should matter to you" line of thinking sounds good on paper, but when you apply it to real life, it often does not work. In fact many walk away wives are unhappy because they have allowed themselves to be taken advantage of by a spouse that has a never ending list of things that matter to them. There are examples of this happening even on this thread.
> 
> Guys think differently than women. We do not have the same needs or wants as women and we sometimes do not understand the significance of things, but that is also true of women in not understanding men. One book that helped my marriage was "His Needs Her Needs". We both discovered that although we both were making efforts to meet the needs of the other, we were doing this based on the false assumption that what we needed was the same thing as what the other needed. There was a lot of wasted efforts on the wrong things. Thus me having sex with her was not going to make things better, when what she really needed was the ability to talk things out with me. For me, rather than talk things out, she can often just give me some great sex and everything is cool LOL.




You really need to think of it as more of a spirit of the law vs the letter of the law type of thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

EleGirl said:


> Talk about dismissing real issues. No, WAWs are not just bored. There is a definition for the term "Walk Away Wife". Here is a link to that.
> 
> Get Relationship Advice and Solve Marriage Problems with Michele Weiner-Davis - Divorce Busting®
> 
> Women on this thread have been talking about real issues that lead to the eventual end of their marriage. And this is your interpretation?


I will add one more thought

I am sure there are WAW as Gus describes I don't want to discount that

But..... A WAW is a very real phenomenon.

If you have been married for a number of years ask yourself how much you would take if you were her?

So go on the assumption things are not as good as you think they are 

My bet is your wife and family are worth the effort (just think of your life without her let that sink in.
)

JLD promotes humility and keeping our pride in check.

An absolute must in fixing our side of the street'

Instead of turning this thread into a b!tching session I would take advantage of being inside the mind of a WAW and listen to what they are saying .Because in my view they are trying to help.

Its your move tough guy

55


----------



## OpenWindows

turnera said:


> OMG, I have tried SO many different ways to get my H to take responsibility. I've tried asking. I've tried negotiating. I've tried reminding him. I've tried setting up a chore chart. I've tried making a to-do list. I've tried leaving his stuff where he drops it (for months). I've tried leaving it all on his side of the mattress (he pushes it off to the floor). I've tried leaving it on his side of the bed on the floor. I've tried getting a box and dumping all his stuff in the box. I've tried throwing his stuff away (he's dug through the trash). I've tried giving his stuff away (he's taken his stuff out of the Good Will box).


This kind of made me laugh. My XH was the same way. He honestly didn't mind living in filth (I can't believe I didn't run the first time I saw his apartment... just wow!). Since it didn't bother him, nothing I tried could get him to pick up after himself.

At first I didn't mind all the cleaning up after him. But after a few years and two kids, it really started to wear at me.


----------



## AliceA

turnera said:


> This made me cry.
> 
> I used to cry a lot. Then I gave it up. Just lived.
> 
> But this made me cry. It's been so long since I really thought about all this, til I read this thread, actually. I'd just given up and moved on from day to day and quit thinking about how things could have been.
> 
> Gee, I make my H sound like a monster. He's not. He loves me like crazy. He's a moral man, helps everyone, is extremely honest and never cheats anyone. But his dysfunctions rule him.


The husband in this case is my father, and I love him dearly. He would die for us, for Mum, he would work himself to the bone. I definitely understand how a good man can be a bad husband, but not necessarily in every way. If a certain issue is bad enough, it can end up shadowing every moment of your life, even the moments that bring joy, because there's always the knowledge that at the end of the joy comes the sorrow. You can't achieve balance in your life, can't feel contentment. The bad outweighs the good on the whole and there's no way to change it.

I'm sorry for your pain Turnera.


----------



## turnera

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> turnera, you have really hung in there and worn yourself out trying everything you can think of. Does he get an attitude? The attitude is part of what makes me want to walk away.


That's the problem, I guess. As long as things are going well, as long as HIS life is going well, he's loving and affectionate, ALWAYS treats me amazing in sex, funny...all the things we want in a husband, right? The ONLY time he blows up at me is when I try to get him to be a responsible adult and discuss adult stuff. We don't have wills because he's not willing to discuss 'hard stuff' like that. We don't have a budget other than what I create because he won't talk about it. We don't make joint decisions because he doesn't want to deal with stuff. At least not joint decisions that aren't 'fun,' like buying new furniture or looking at new houses or shopping for stuff for his band. I've just learned over the years that as long as I don't bring up 'hard' stuff, as long as I don't make him feel like I'm nagging him, we get along great.


----------



## MattMatt

EleGirl said:


> Gads, that sounds like my second husband... :surprise:


Oh. Was he Asperger's, too, by some chance?


----------



## just got it 55

turnera said:


> I read HNHN out loud to my H. He understands the concepts. I've even heard him discuss it to other people. I give him sex even though he knows I don't want it. He knows that I do. He used to give me all the stuff he wanted to get, as gifts: perfume/cologne, skin care stuff, nice clothes, jewelry, lingerie. I used to give him what I wanted him to have so he would help me: tools, storage. Until I read HNHN, and realized I had to stop giving him things to make ME happy, I had to instead make HIM happy, so I started giving him clothes and cologne and jewelry; he's a happy man. It took DD25 the past few years to make him understand that I wanted things to make the HOUSE better, not me. The past 3 years or so, I've finally started getting gifts that matter to me: vacuum cleaner, weed-eater, BBQ.
> 
> I guess it's a work in progress.


T if I gave my sweet wife a vacuum cleaner she would be a WAW for sure :frown2:

55


----------



## EleGirl

MattMatt said:


> Oh. Was he Asperger's, too, by some chance?



Nope. He just picked at everything I did and said.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

turnera said:


> OMG, I have tried SO many different ways to get my H to take responsibility. I've tried asking. I've tried negotiating. I've tried reminding him. I've tried setting up a chore chart. I've tried making a to-do list. I've tried leaving his stuff where he drops it (for months). I've tried leaving it all on his side of the mattress (he pushes it off to the floor). I've tried leaving it on his side of the bed on the floor. I've tried getting a box and dumping all his stuff in the box. I've tried throwing his stuff away (he's dug through the trash). I've tried giving his stuff away (he's taken his stuff out of the Good Will box).


I wouldn't be shocked if it is still there in a year from now. I give up on trying to get him to do most things but if I do ask, I'm not doing it myself. I'll let that cup sit and rot, I can't do it anymore. He has made progress, we're doing a lot of MB and it's helping but he slips and it's hard to not fall back into the bad habits. That's one reason that the glass is such a stubborn point. I will not be the woman I was then. Not ever again. 

The one area I haven't been able to stop is doing the things he asks of me. 

"Where's the peanut butter?" *before he even bothers to look*
"Can you do me a favour and grab me a bowl/spoon/cup?"
"Can you do me a favour and check my bank account....find my meds.... text my Mom back..... run to the store..... ?" 

Ask, ask, ask all day long. I hear "Can you do me a favour and ....." as often as I hear my kids "Mooooom, brother is looking at me funny"

While writing this he has asked me for 2. Find his shirt and fill his travel mug. 

When I get upset it's all "geez, why so angry about filling my travel mug?" 
It's not the mug. It's not the glass of old, molding juice. They are just symbols.


----------



## EleGirl

just got it 55 said:


> T if I gave my sweet wife a vacuum cleaner she would be a WAW for sure :frown2:
> 
> 55


For years, I would have been shocked if I even got a gift.. anything.


----------



## MattMatt

turnera said:


> *sigh*
> 
> And, _again_, not the topic of this thread, not the type of women who become WAWs.
> 
> But I'm sorry you had to deal with that.


But my wife threatens to put the house on the market and to leave the marriage because of the fact that "the house is a mess and a pig sty."

So it is *exactly* the topic of this thread!

My wife has blown a couple of friendships over the years by telling friends how horrible I am to her, and telling them that she might just become a WAW. 

However, when they see the reality of the situation v what she has told them, you can see them thinking :wtf: One of her girlfriends even warned her that it could be me doing the leaving if she didn't shape up. 

So just because someone says their spouse (male/female) is not meeting their needs, that might not actually be the case.


----------



## turnera

OpenWindows said:


> This kind of made me laugh. My XH was the same way. He honestly didn't mind living in filth (I can't believe I didn't run the first time I saw his apartment... just wow!). Since it didn't bother him, nothing I tried could get him to pick up after himself.
> 
> At first I didn't mind all the cleaning up after him. But after a few years and two kids, it really started to wear at me.


What screwed me up was that his mom was living with him when I moved in, and she stayed another 3 years. By the time she left, and our 'family' was set, our house fell apart. It took me awhile to realize that she had been going around behind him, all day every day, cleaning up for him, picking up his socks(!), perpetuating his belief that women are maids.

And I didn't know any better to put a stop to it when I discovered it. And it wasn't til 7 years later when we had a kid that I realized I really couldn't do it all by myself without going crazy.


----------



## just got it 55

EleGirl said:


> For years, I would have been shocked if I even got a gift.. anything.


You gave yourself three by divorcing these D Bags:grin2:

55


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

EleGirl said:


> For years, I would have been shocked if I even got a gift.. anything.


Yep, I got nothing until I basically forced him to. I got a can opener and a strainer that year and I couldn't have been happier. 
It wasn't what it was that mattered as much as that he knew that's what I needed. He saw me in the kitchen struggling with the crappy can opener we had. He heard me when I told him how our strainer was falling to pieces but he knew I hate buying new stuff until the old is 100% done as I feel like I am wasting money. He showed he knew me, saw me, heard me. I cried happy tears, sometimes even much later when I would open a can with ease. 
It doesn't take much, just give us a little sign that it's in there, somewhere, and we'll keep fighting.


----------



## MattMatt

EleGirl said:


> Nope. He just picked at everything I did and said.


Oh. Another TAM example of a woman who married way beneath her? 

Let me guess you only ever got two things wrong, whatever you did, whatever you said?


----------



## turnera

just got it 55 said:


> T if I gave my sweet wife a vacuum cleaner she would be a WAW for sure :frown2:
> 
> 55


Yes, but see, that's the thing, isn't it? KNOWING - and CARING - about what makes your spouse happy. My H gave me jewelry and lingerie and clothes for 3 decades, none of which I wanted. I wanted shelves and vacuum cleaner and gardening tools, because - due to my FOO - having a home I wasn't ashamed of was what was most important to me. 

That, and since my H hoards EVERYTHING (we still have his sales receipts from 40 years ago), which makes it almost IMPOSSIBLE to find anything and when he can't find something (a weekly event), if I had everything organized, he'd be able to find it and wouldn't chew ME out because of it. So my perpetual goal is to organize the whole house so everything has its place.


----------



## EleGirl

MattMatt said:


> But my wife threatens to put the house on the market and to leave the marriage because of the fact that "the house is a mess and a pig sty."
> 
> So it is *exactly* the topic of this thread!
> 
> My wife has blown a couple of friendships over the years by telling friends how horrible I am to her, and telling them that she might just become a WAW.
> 
> However, when they see the reality of the situation v what she has told them, you can see them thinking :wtf: One of her girlfriends even warned her that it could be me doing the leaving if she didn't shape up.
> 
> So just because someone says their spouse (male/female) is not meeting their needs, that might not actually be the case.


Matt, this is true.

It takes a lot of soul searching by all parties to realize what's going on and to fix it. Your wife probably really feels/believes what she says she does even though it's unreasonable. 

Counseling could help a lot of couples figure this out. Not everyone would pay attention to the counselor and their input, but some will.

I suppose the counseling would not help your wife figure out that she's nit picking and not being fair.


----------



## Thundarr

Dammit TAMERS, you just costs me 3k. We have a nice home in a nice neighborhood but our garage doors have been needing to be replaced for years and I got a bonus this year. No our garage doors cannot be seen by anyone unless they pull into our driveway. No our degrading garage doors do not bother me at all.

But my wife (who is awesome) has been fussing about the garage doors for about 5 years now so guess what 1/2 of my (our) bonus is going to fund. GARAGE DOORS...... pfffff.


----------



## john117

OpenWindows said:


> Isn't leaving the response in both cases?


Blowing up a marriage over sex vs picking up socks... Hmmm.


----------



## john117

turnera said:


> Sorry to disappoint you by being so petty, then.


Perspective, turnera. Perspective.


----------



## turnera

MattMatt said:


> But my wife threatens to put the house on the market and to leave the marriage because of the fact that "the house is a mess and a pig sty."
> 
> So it is *exactly* the topic of this thread!
> 
> My wife has blown a couple of friendships over the years by telling friends how horrible I am to her, and telling them that she might just become a WAW.
> 
> However, when they see the reality of the situation v what she has told them, you can see them thinking :wtf: One of her girlfriends even warned her that *it could be me doing the leaving* if she didn't shape up.


So, NO, it is absolutely NOT the topic of this thread. This thread is about women (or men) who give and give and give, waiting for the spouse to give something in return, and finally fall out of love for having a spouse who simply doesn't care enough to want to see her/him happy.

How does that apply to your situation?


----------



## OpenWindows

MattMatt said:


> So just because someone says their spouse (male/female) is not meeting their needs, that might not actually be the case.


It sounds like you're not actually meeting her need for cleanliness.

Don't take that the wrong way... I wouldn't meet that need either! If she thinks that makes a pig sty, my house might just kill her. I'm not saying you're wrong for misplacing the ornaments, just that we don't get to judge and qualify what another person needs emotionally. She still feels she needs that level of order, and that need is still unmet. It still counts to her, even if it doesn't count to you. If your wife has Asperger's, some of her needs might make even less sense to you, but that doesn't change how she feels about them.

A need that one spouse finds unreasonable generally becomes a compatibility issue. If your wife can't live with your "pigsty", and you can't clean to her standards, eventually she might decide to leave. And if a husband needs to be "cared for", and his wife needs him to care for himself and for her, eventually someone might decide to leave.

I think many WAW situations (and Nice Guy situations as well) really boil down to someone who really enjoys "taking" matching with someone who does not enjoy long-term selfless giving. It doesn't really make anyone right or wrong, just incompatible. They both still need what they need in order to be happy, even if the other doesn't agree.

Think about it... a lot of the husbands mentioned in this thread might be a very good match for a really strong caregiver personality.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Thundarr said:


> Dammit TAMERS, you just costs me 3k. We have a nice home in a nice neighborhood but our garage doors have been needing to be replaced for years and I got a bonus this year. No our garage doors cannot be seen by anyone unless they pull into our driveway. No our degrading garage doors do not bother me at all.
> 
> But my wife (who is awesome) has been fussing about the garage doors for about 5 years now so guess what 1/2 of my (our) bonus is going to fund. GARAGE DOORS...... pfffff.


That's probably going to be the best $3,000 you will spend in a long while. Having a nice looking exterior is only the icing on the cake. Well done.


----------



## Adelais

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I wouldn't be shocked if it is still there in a year from now. I give up on trying to get him to do most things but if I do ask, I'm not doing it myself. I'll let that cup sit and rot, I can't do it anymore. He has made progress, we're doing a lot of MB and it's helping but he slips and it's hard to not fall back into the bad habits. That's one reason that the glass is such a stubborn point. I will not be the woman I was then. Not ever again.
> 
> The one area I haven't been able to stop is doing the things he asks of me.
> 
> "Where's the peanut butter?" *before he even bothers to look*
> "Can you do me a favour and grab me a bowl/spoon/cup?"
> "Can you do me a favour and check my bank account....find my meds.... text my Mom back..... run to the store..... ?"
> 
> Ask, ask, ask all day long. I hear "Can you do me a favour and ....." as often as I hear my kids "Mooooom, brother is looking at me funny"
> 
> While writing this he has asked me for 2. Find his shirt and fill his travel mug.
> 
> When I get upset it's all "geez, why so angry about filling my travel mug?"
> It's not the mug. It's not the glass of old, molding juice. They are just symbols.


Rather than vent (this time), I'll just say "I can relate."


----------



## EleGirl

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Yep, I got nothing until I basically forced him to. I got a can opener and a strainer that year and I couldn't have been happier.
> It wasn't what it was that mattered as much as that he knew that's what I needed. He saw me in the kitchen struggling with the crappy can opener we had. He heard me when I told him how our strainer was falling to pieces but he knew I hate buying new stuff until the old is 100% done as I feel like I am wasting money. He showed he knew me, saw me, heard me. I cried happy tears, sometimes even much later when I would open a can with ease.
> It doesn't take much, just give us a little sign that it's in there, somewhere, and we'll keep fighting.


Every year before his birthday… 2-3 weeks before he’s start dropping big hints about what wanted.. a new stereo system for example. And of course I’d happily give him what he wanted.

My birthday? Nothing. Not even happy birthday. 

So one year I went along with is telling me what he wanted. But I got him nothing… no present, no b-day cake, nothing from the kids, no special dinner. And he pouted like a baby. I just looked at him and said something like “You have never given me a birthday present. So I realized that I was probably embarrassing you when I make a fuss out of your birthday. And that was mean of me. I’m sorry.”

That was the year he started giving me presents.


----------



## Adelais

turnera said:


> And it wasn't til 7 years later when we had a kid that I realized I really couldn't do it all by myself without going crazy.


Again, ICR. This thread makes me feel sick...no body's fault. It just makes everything crystal clear.


----------



## Adelais

Thundarr said:


> But my wife (who is awesome) has been fussing about the garage doors for about 5 years now so guess what 1/2 of my (our) bonus is going to fund. GARAGE DOORS...... pfffff.


Love bucket bonus points.


----------



## turnera

john117 said:


> Blowing up a marriage over sex vs picking up socks... Hmmm.


You are KIDDING me, right? You think I would leave a marriage because he won't pick up his socks?

You aren't listening. You are letting YOUR bitterness cloud your vision.

smh


----------



## OpenWindows

turnera said:


> What screwed me up was that his mom was living with him when I moved in, and she stayed another 3 years. By the time she left, and our 'family' was set, our house fell apart. It took me awhile to realize that she had been going around behind him, all day every day, cleaning up for him, picking up his socks(!), perpetuating his belief that women are maids.
> 
> And I didn't know any better to put a stop to it when I discovered it. And it wasn't til 7 years later when we had a kid that I realized I really couldn't do it all by myself without going crazy.


It was the kids that did me in, too. I didn't really anticipate how much work they would be, although I should have known how much of that work I would be doing myself. After baby #1, I knew I was at my limit. When surprise baby #2 came along, I nearly had a breakdown and our marriage fell apart. It was just too much, I couldn't carry it all anymore.


----------



## john117

EleGirl said:


> It's as though you have not been reading the posts.
> 
> Not one woman on this thread has left, or wants to leave a husband just because he will not fix the sink or pick up socks.
> 
> Your examples are from Tunera's posts. Did you read the rest of what has gone on in her marriage?
> 
> She is exactly like the typical nice guy you describe. She does everything for her husband and gets rewarded with sex once a quarter (actually about every 6 months), if that.
> 
> So why do you only 'hear' the complaints about the socks and the sink?
> 
> I've also talked about my marriages. Please tell me how trivial I was in leaving my marriages. After all you seem to think that every woman who has posted about why they left their marriage did so for trivial reasons. So please point out how I was trivial.
> 
> .
> .


I have... But you need to remember that most people have a given emotional processing bandwidth. Meaning, they're more likely to respond to perceived important stuff, not socks.

Make every little thing a squabble and pretty quickly everything becomes socks...


----------



## Adelais

john117 said:


> I have... But you need to remember that most people have a given emotional processing bandwidth. Meaning, they're more likely to respond to perceived important stuff, not socks.
> 
> Make every little thing a squabble and pretty quickly everything becomes socks...


Socks become an emotional issue when the spouse that has to pick them up for years begins to feel like a disrespected servant.


----------



## OpenWindows

john117 said:


> Blowing up a marriage over sex vs picking up socks... Hmmm.


Blowing up a marriage over sex vs being constantly ignored... hmmm...

Seems fairly equivalent to me. People not wanting to be ignored by their spouse.

Nobody's leaving over socks. You're missing the rest of that giant iceberg.


----------



## turnera

EleGirl said:


> Every year before his birthday… 2-3 weeks before he’s start dropping big hints about what wanted.. a new stereo system for example. And of course I’d happily give him what he wanted.
> 
> My birthday? Nothing. Not even happy birthday.
> 
> So one year I went along with is telling me what he wanted. But I got him nothing… no present, no b-day cake, nothing from the kids, no special dinner. And he pouted like a baby. I just looked at him and said something like “You have never given me a birthday present. So I realized that I was probably embarrassing you when I make a fuss out of your birthday. And that was mean of me. I’m sorry.”
> 
> That was the year he started giving me presents.


OMG, I had the exact same thing happen! Our first year together, he gave me nothing for my birthday. "I don't believe in having to give gifts because society says so. I like to surprise you whenever I feel like it" (translation: I want to feel like a god for deigning to give you a gift)

So six months later, I gave him nothing for his birthday. You'd have thought I killed Jesus. I just said 'you didn't give ME anything and you said you didn't believe if having to give gifts. I was just following YOUR rules.' He never purposely forgot my birthday again.

Too bad I didn't stay that strong.


----------



## lifeistooshort

There are a certain number of men that no matter what anyone says will cover their ears, get defensive, and hear nothing but socks.

It's no skin off anyone's nose, at least not anyone here. If their marriage is working that's great. If not and nothing any of us have said is applicable, so be it. If anything that's been said is applicable and they're just hvll bent on not hearing it the loss is theirs. 

Those guys can remain right and miserable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

turnera said:


> So, NO, it is absolutely NOT the topic of this thread. This thread is about women (or men) who give and give and give, waiting for the spouse to give something in return, and finally fall out of love for having a spouse who simply doesn't care enough to want to see her/him happy.
> 
> How does that apply to your situation?


Because my wife *believes* that is her situation. She *believes* that I do not do what I can do, she *believes* I do not care enough to want to see her happy. She *believes* I am doing things to deliberately hurt her.

But a belief does not make something so.

I do my share of housework, 90% of the food shopping.

I care for her emotional needs. (There are issues here, with her ASD, but I do what I can.)

I live in fear that one day my wife will become a WAW because I somehow can't meet her ASD-engendered needs.

And that's not fair.

And *that* is how this applies to my situation.


----------



## turnera

john117 said:


> I have... But you need to remember that most people have a given emotional processing bandwidth. Meaning, they're more likely to respond to perceived important stuff, not socks.
> 
> Make every little thing a squabble and pretty quickly everything becomes socks...


Maybe you'd prefer to see my page-long list of things that need fixing and haven't been fixed for years. The same list my H looks at because I keep it on the kitchen counter so I can (maybe) cross something off if it ever gets done.


----------



## karole

Reading thiS thread REALLY makes me appreciate my husband even more than I already do. I'm sorry you guys have to deal with this on a daily basis. I don't think I could.


----------



## OpenWindows

EleGirl said:


> Every year before his birthday… 2-3 weeks before he’s start dropping big hints about what wanted.. a new stereo system for example. And of course I’d happily give him what he wanted.
> 
> My birthday? Nothing. Not even happy birthday.
> 
> So one year I went along with is telling me what he wanted. But I got him nothing… no present, no b-day cake, nothing from the kids, no special dinner. And he pouted like a baby. I just looked at him and said something like “You have never given me a birthday present. So I realized that I was probably embarrassing you when I make a fuss out of your birthday. And that was mean of me. I’m sorry.”
> 
> That was the year he started giving me presents.


This literally made me LOL. We had the same standoff over Mother's/Father's Day!

When he forgot me on Mother's Day for the second time (after swearing he would NEVER do that again), I didn't say anything and didn't get him a Father's Day gift. When he brought it up, I told him, "Oh, I thought we weren't doing that this year..."

I acknowledge that this was petty of me. But I had just recently pushed out his second baby, and I was very hurt at being forgotten again.


----------



## turnera

MattMatt said:


> Because my wife *believes* that is her situation. She *believes* that I do not do what I can do, she *believes* I do not care enough to want to see her happy.
> 
> But a belief does not make something so.
> 
> I do my share of housework, 90% of the food shopping.
> 
> I care for her emotional needs. (There are issues here, with her ASD, but I do what I can.)
> 
> I live in fear that one day my wife will become a WAW because I somehow can't meet her ASD-engendered needs.
> 
> And that's not fair.
> 
> And *that* is how this applies to my situation.


No, it's not fair. But it STILL doesn't make your wife a WAW. It makes her a selfish princess. And the only solution for YOU is to either accept it or leave her.


----------



## OpenWindows

turnera said:


> No, it's not fair. But it STILL doesn't make your wife a WAW. It makes her a selfish princess. And the only solution for YOU is to either accept it or leave her.


I don't know, maybe it does kind of make her a WAW. She feels her needs are unmet, she complains, he still doesn't meet those needs... if eventually she checks out and then leaves, she basically fits the definition.

Not all WAWs are wonderful selfless women. Not all of their husbands are horrible lazy men. Sometimes the husband really does come out ahead in these situations.

His side, her side, and the truth.


----------



## MattMatt

turnera said:


> No, it's not fair. But it STILL doesn't make your wife a WAW. It makes her a selfish princess. And the only solution for YOU is to either accept it or leave her.


She keeps telling me she is going to be a WAW.

So, should I just ignore that threat until it becomes a reality?:scratchhead:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Thundarr said:


> Yea I know it's the right thing to do but I wonder if that's only from reading threads like this because things like this are not always easy for me to see the importance of. I imagine that someone like me who doesn't read threads like this on TAM might be surprised when this type of issue bites him in the butt.


Eh, not sure why it would be a surprise. If there was something you really needed/wanted from your wife for 5 years and never got, suddenly had the financial means to do it and still didn't, I imagine you would be hurt and ticked off. Would it be the end all be all? I doubt it but I bet it would be just another example of your needs not being met. Please know I am not talking about you here. You were awesome and got the means to make her needs happen. I am referring to a spouse, both men and women, who repeatedly put the needs of their spouse on the back burner. Years and years go by with no effort made. Now back to you: So to you those are just new garage doors. To your wife however, it is a sacrifice you were willing to give to make her happy. Again, well done.


----------



## EleGirl

OpenWindows said:


> This literally made me LOL. We had the same standoff over Mother's/Father's Day!
> 
> When he forgot me on Mother's Day for the second time (after swearing he would NEVER do that again), I didn't say anything and didn't get him a Father's Day gift. When he brought it up, I told him, "Oh, I thought we weren't doing that this year..."
> 
> I acknowledge that this was petty of me. But I had just recently pushed out his second baby, and I was very hurt at being forgotten again.


No, it is not petty. Remember that we teach people how to treat us. By doing this you taught him that he is to respect you as the mother of his children.

Remember that when children are young, they learn from their parents what is important.

When mom makes a big deal out of father's day... they learn that fathers are important/special and must be treated as such.

When dad ignores mom on mother's day.... they learn that mom is not important and should be ignored.

One of my brothers was the reverse of this. Every year made a fuss about mother's day and also made sure that the kids did.

On father's his wife ignored it. 

Now the children are in their 20's and my brother is divorced. Guess what happens. On mother's day there is a huge fuss.. all over face book, all over twitter (the daughter is a mid level Hollywood celebrity), the world hears about how wonderful mom is. 

On father's day. Well he's never mentioned. His kids do not visit him, call him, or send him a card. You can hear crickets.

What you did is not petty at all.


----------



## Thundarr

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Eh, not sure why it would be a surprise. If there was something you really needed/wanted from your wife for 5 years and never got, despite the financial ability to be able to, I imagine you would be hurt and ticked off. Would it be the end all be all? I doubt it but I bet it would be just another example of needs not being met. Please know I am not talking about you here. You were awesome and got the means to make her needs happen. I am referring to a spouse, both men and women, who repeatedly put the needs of their spouse on the back burner. Years and years go by with no effort made. Now back to you: So to you those are just new garage doors. To your wife however, it is a sacrifice you were willing to give to make her happy. Again, well done.


I don't know why for sure but I think it's about projecting our needs rather than trying to meet our partner's needs. I wasn't very smart about relationship stuff years back even though I was a very smart and logical guy otherwise. A guy with tons of potential to be a great partner but not quite able to be one.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

john117 said:


> Blowing up a marriage over sex vs picking up socks... Hmmm.


No. It's blowing up a marriage due to basic wants and needs being unmet for so long even though you have tried to communicate and fix things.

It's not the socks, and a lot of times it's not even the sex itself. It's the feelings of not being wanted, cared for, listened to and have someone who WANTS to meet your needs because they love you.
It's often not the physical part of sex that those men (and women) are after. It's the emotional part. They want a partner. So does the WAW. It's not about him physically picking up the socks. It's everything that NOT doing it makes us feel.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Thundarr said:


> I don't know why for sure but I think it's about projecting our needs rather than trying to meet our partner's needs. I wasn't very smart about relationship stuff years back even though I was a very smart and logical guy otherwise. A guy with tons of potential to be a great partner but not quite able to be one.


Yup. We assume that the things that makes us happy will make our partner happy as well. Marriage is a learning curve for sure and mistakes happen. It's the continuous, and worse, willful ignorance to their needs that creates walk away wives/husbands.


----------



## turnera

MattMatt said:


> She keeps telling me she is going to be a WAW.
> 
> So, should I just ignore that threat until it becomes a reality?:scratchhead:


Matt, your problem is far beyond that. Do you have a thread?


----------



## Thundarr

MattMatt said:


> She keeps telling me she is going to be a WAW.
> 
> So, should I just ignore that threat until it becomes a reality?:scratchhead:
> 
> 
> turnera said:
> 
> 
> 
> Matt, your problem is far beyond that. Do you have a thread?
Click to expand...

If I'm remember correctly MattMatt, your wife is diagnosed with aspergers. Dude if she says that she's going to be a WAW then you had better prepare for it because she means it. Being married to an aspergers spouse is a double edged sword. You might get brutally honest and calculated responses but they are indeed honest in most cases.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yup. We assume that the things that makes us happy will make our partner happy as well. Marriage is a learning curve for sure and mistakes happen. It's the continuous, and worse, willful ignorance to their needs that creates walk away wives/husbands.


Yep. My H's biggest EN is words of affirmation. He gives them great too, it's just not something I care about. I'm more thanks for tell me I'm awesome, now come in here and help! But he will tell me wonderful words of affirmation daily, and I try to keep in mind it is his way of showing love but it's not something that gives me my needs.


----------



## Adelais

MattMatt, didn't she tell you she was going to have an A before she had one?

She's telling you something now too.

What can you do about it? IDK. She is going to do what she wants. You love her, and you don't want to divorce her, so you have to wait it out.


----------



## JohnA

In general I do respect and perhaps admire walk away spouses. They didn't lie and they didn't commit adultery. Yea, they might have failed to comunicate what was going on IN TERMS their spouses could understand but they didn't lie and didn't commit adultery. Yea, if there spouse had just listen to them once, things might have worked out different - but in response the walk away did not lie or commit adultery. 

So bless them for that.


----------



## Adelais

JohnA said:


> Yea, they might have failed to comunicate what was going on IN TERMS their spouses could understand


I'm sure most WAW's tried every method of communication that they could think of before they finally gave up and went silent.


----------



## MattMatt

turnera said:


> Matt, your problem is far beyond that. Do you have a thread?


Yes. Several usually in the private section.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RoseAglow

TRy said:


> The "If it matters to your spouse it should matter to you" line of thinking sounds good on paper, but when you apply it to real life, it often does not work. In fact many walk away wives are unhappy because they have allowed themselves to be taken advantage of by a spouse that has a never ending list of things that matter to them. There are examples of this happening even on this thread.
> 
> Guys think differently than women. We do not have the same needs or wants as women and we sometimes do not understand the significance of things, but that is also true of women in not understanding men. One book that helped my marriage was "His Needs Her Needs". We both discovered that although we both were making efforts to meet the needs of the other, we were doing this based on the false assumption that what we needed was the same thing as what the other needed. There was a lot of wasted efforts on the wrong things. Thus me having sex with her was not going to make things better, when what she really needed was the ability to talk things out with me. For me, rather than talk things out, she can often just give me some great sex and everything is cool LOL.


Try, the main message of HNHN is that women and men have different needs,_ and it is not instinctive for either gender to care that much about the things that are important to the other_. It was a surprise to Harley when he found that on average, the top emotional needs of men were listed in the opposite order of the top emotional needs for women. He didn't expect it, and this finding is one of the foundations of his program. Everything starts to make sense once that fundamental issue is understood. It is not common knowledge outside of certain circles like marriage counsellors, and maybe marriage boards.

On your own, you wouldn't care that much about intimate conversation; having it didn't make you feel loved in the way that it made your wife feel loved. It didn't make things better for you, so how would you know that it would generate deep feelings of love in your wife, to the same extent that you feel love for your wife after sex? You wouldn't know, of course.

But once you both began to meet each other's emotional needs, things improved for both of you, yes? That's what we are talking about on this thread. If it's important to your wife, you need to treat it as something that is important, even if it's not important to you. When you prioritize meeting her needs, even if her needs do nothing for you, you create love in her heart for you. You make her fall for you. Women need to do the same thing, for their guys, too. 

The problem is that many people do not know about emotional needs. They think that since something is not important to them, then it's not important at all. 

The wives on this thread aren't leaving because their *husbands* don't feel loved. They are leaving because their needs have not been met. The wives are out of love, they are done. 

It would be as if your wife said to you (not you specifically, general you), "I need us to talk more", but because talking has no positive effect on you, you decided that it wasn't really that important to talk with her. It would be as if you just blew her off and insisted that really all she needed to do was have more sex, because that was your truth, based on your experience. To you, talking was just her missing the point and maybe even her attempt to get out of sex. To her, you're not showing care for her and just want her for sex. Both parties get resentful, no ones needs are getting met.

HNHN describes this situation. It is common. You see it often on TAM. It's easy to see how it happens. It still kills marriages. 

There are also plenty of spouses who bend over backwards to meet needs, to try to get sex, but no matter what their spouse is not interested in having sex. Sometimes the spouse isn't hitting the top needs of his/her partner, but sometimes the partner just doesn't realize the importance of sex. It might be enjoyable but it doesn't have the same effect on her as it does to him. She doesn't experience it, so she won't know unless she learns it somewhere. She doesn't prioritize her husband's needs. I am speaking as if the woman is denying sex, but men can also be the deniers. This also kills marriages. 

So to me, it's not really an issue of something looking good on paper. I believe that the emotional needs/love bank theory is actually true. I believe it can and does change marriages, when it's understood and implemented. 

If course, not all marriages can be saved. There is nothing Happy could do, for instance, if her ex-husband is gay. There are also many people who are just too selfish, or mentally ill, or addicted, etc to have the ability to meet their partner's emotional needs.

But many marriages can be helped. It helped mine, it sounds like it helped yours, and it's helped many, many others. 

But at the heart of it is: to create happy marriages, spouses are going to have to agree to prioritize things that don't mean that much to them in order to meet their partner's emotional needs. Bad things happen when a spouse belittles, demeans, or ignores something that is important to the other spouse.


----------



## john117

turnera said:


> You are KIDDING me, right? You think I would leave a marriage because he won't pick up his socks?
> 
> You aren't listening. You are letting YOUR bitterness cloud your vision.
> 
> smh


You're missing the symbolism.

I supervise 14 people. Do you think I care if our corporate policies are followed to a tee, or do I care about getting the work done? I don't harp at my team for every little thing. I know their individual personalities and can challenge them. 

Likewise my daughters never did chores. Never. I managed just fine. And they did not become entitled princesses. 

To quote @jld its all about leadership. If you saw from an early age you're dealing with an irresponsible person why didn't you bail earlier? If you saw that complaining does not work, you had other ways. We all do. Take the lead, assign duties and do your part - but nothing more. If it doesn't work then call for consequences, or rewards if it worked. If nothing worked then you're dealing with a loonie. 

It's not about socks. But its all about priorities.


----------



## john117

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Socks become an emotional issue when the spouse that has to pick them up for years begins to feel like a disrespected servant.


Then don't let it become an issue. You show vulnerabilities that could and were exploited.


----------



## john117

turnera said:


> Maybe you'd prefer to see my page-long list of things that need fixing and haven't been fixed for years. The same list my H looks at because I keep it on the kitchen counter so I can (maybe) cross something off if it ever gets done.


I know all about project management. But why would you have a page long list in a ten year old house? 

At the end of the day I see it as follows:

- do I work for a living?
- can I do it myself?
- do I have the time and tools?

And...

Drum Roll...

Is it needed?

Our upstairs oven is dead because the display vfd is bad. $500 repair FML. But we have a second full kitchen so it will likely get fixed before we sell. 

Life is all about optimization of resources. 

Regardless I won't let it get to my nerves.


----------



## PieceOfSky

turnera said:


> He's not a monster. Just extremely dysfunctional and when you add in MY dysfunction of not being able to stand up for myself, it's just a clusterfluck of a mess.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And please don't think I don't recognize that this is all my fault. I'm a weak person. I'm terrified of confrontation. And I have no self worth. If I could stick with therapy, do the hard work to improve, none of this would be a problem because I'd be able to face confrontation and enact consequences. But that's not me. Not after 57 years of this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why I spend so much time on forums like this, trying to talk younger people into making the changes before the dysfunction becomes too ingrained in them like it has me.





It is NOT all your fault, turnera. Not even close. Words like that dilute the truth, and that seldom is empowering. You have actions you can take, but if you are harsh with yourself, how will you ever have the energy to take them?



Be clear, you've had a lot of sh!T dumped on you that wasn't your choosing, starting when you were young, you coped how you could cope at the time, you've learned more than most are even aware there is to learn about human behavior, and you reached out for help and at least some of the time can see(and feel?) you deserve better. 



You have helped many people here, turnera. Most of us have no clue about what you've been faced with. I hear you saying you are working on it, and have some professional help and encouragement from your young adult daughter. Still, I find myself wondering if you are mostly isolated from support IRL (friends, family). I also wonder if your insightful comments to others about ways they continue to bind themselves to their tormentors are so spot on because, well, you are doing similar to yourself... (wild speculation on my part, drawn from my own introspection...)



If I am not mistaken, you still don't have an active thread of your own here. Not that a TAM thread is guaranteed to be helpful (lol), but sometimes, a thread can help one set a course and stay on it, and provide opportunities for others here to offer support as you make bigger changes in your life. (Ignore that if you have the support you need.)


----------



## JohnA

@IMFarAboveRubies, 

Did you read/hear only the partial qoute of one sentence in my post? Did you miss the second sentence? Did you notice a common theme ? Did you miss the word respect and admire ? 

I heard you and others which is why I posted using the terms respect, admire, bless and all you got out of it was "I am sure...." ?


----------



## Red Sonja

john117 said:


> Then don't let it become an issue. You show vulnerabilities that could and were exploited.


Really?! Do you truly think marriage is an adversarial relationship where one must do as you say in the above quote?

I did not enter marriage thinking that to show vulnerabilities meant to have them exploited. Did you, does anyone?

:surprise:


----------



## TRy

turnera said:


> I wanted things to make the HOUSE better, not me. The past 3 years or so, I've finally started getting gifts that matter to me: vacuum cleaner, weed-eater, BBQ.


 You do understand how unusual you are right? No wonder your husband was so slow on the uptake on this. If I ever gave my wife those gifts ("vacuum cleaner, weed-eater, BBQ"), I would be sleeping on the couch LOL!!!


----------



## AliceA

TRy said:


> You do understand how unusual you are right? No wonder your husband was so slow on the uptake on this. If I ever gave my wife those gifts ("vacuum cleaner, weed-eater, BBQ"), I would be sleeping on the couch LOL!!!


Maybe it is like this for those women who struggle to have enough time to get everything done; they like things that make their lives easier. Was just thinking of my mother who asked for a rotary hoe for her birthday one year.


----------



## TRy

RoseAglow said:


> But once you both began to meet each other's emotional needs, things improved for both of you, yes?


 Yes. We always cared and tried, but we did not always understand what it was the other really needed.



RoseAglow said:


> The problem is that many people do not know about emotional needs. They think that since something is not important to them, then it's not important at all.





RoseAglow said:


> HNHN describes this situation. It is common. You see it often on TAM. It's easy to see how it happens. It still kills marriages.


 This is why I brought up HNHN. I think that many spouses do not realize that men and women have different needs and value things differently. Many of these spouse are not bad people, they just do not understand, and when their spouse walks away, they are genuinely surprised.



RoseAglow said:


> So to me, it's not really an issue of something looking good on paper. I believe that the emotional needs/love bank theory is actually true.


 I also believe "that the emotional needs/love bank theory is actually true". What I do not agree with is the statement that "If it matters to your spouse it should matter to you" because it is too absolute a statement, since some spouses think that everything matters, and you end up with the other spouse doing more than should be expected. You need to priorities as to what really matters most to your spouse.

You wrote an excellent post BTW.


----------



## OpenWindows

john117 said:


> Then don't let it become an issue. You show vulnerabilities that could and were exploited.


Did that work for you? Did you get your needs met in your marriage by just not letting it become an issue?



Red Sonja said:


> Really?! Do you truly think marriage is an adversarial relationship where one must do as you say in the above quote?
> 
> I did not enter marriage thinking that to show vulnerabilities meant to have them exploited. Did you, does anyone?
> 
> :surprise:


I always thought that marriage was the safe place to show vulnerabilities. It's not just a business arrangement.

I was taught that in marriage, if I took care of my partner, they would take care of me. I was taught that I would find fulfillment in caring for my husband. I had to learn the hard way that some husbands are just not interesting in caring for a wife. I was naive and I made mistakes, but I thought I was doing the right thing, just as John117 feels he's doing the right thing by staying with a wife who can't meet his needs. 

It's not a matter of not "managing our team" properly. I can lead a team of young adults in a high stress job, but I could never get my husband to do anything he didn't want to do. My employees knew I could fire and replace them, my XH didn't think that would happen. My employees didn't give a crap about my emotional needs, and I was fine with that. I wouldn't want my marriage to be a business arrangement, that would not be a fulfilling emotional relationship to me.


----------



## OpenWindows

breeze said:


> Maybe it is like this for those women who struggle to have enough time to get everything done; they like things that make their lives easier. Was just thinking of my mother who asked for a rotary hoe for her birthday one year.


I tend to ask for kitchen appliances. I was thrilled with the food processor I got for my birthday! Some women would have a fit over being given a food processor or a hoe (I would probably make a joke about dirty hoes, but that's just me...).

I like practical gifts. My BF likes frivolous gifts. I buy him a lot of nerdy toys, Legos and action figures and stuff. You've just got to know what your partner likes! A man who doesn't bother with his wife's emotional needs won't have a clue what she really wants.


----------



## john117

Red Sonja said:


> Really?! Do you truly think marriage is an adversarial relationship where one must do as you say in the above quote?
> 
> I did not enter marriage thinking that to show vulnerabilities meant to have them exploited. Did you, does anyone?
> 
> :surprise:


Not intentionally...

If your love bank has a perpetually negative balance, as is my case, someone is exploiting. Doesn't have to be intentional but it's done. 

Most of us in grossly one side relationships are "exploited"... We don't set out to be but we are. Human nature.


----------



## john117

OpenWindows said:


> Did that work for you? Did you get your needs met in your marriage by just not letting it become an issue?
> 
> 
> 
> I always thought that marriage was the safe place to show vulnerabilities. It's not just a business arrangement.
> 
> I was taught that in marriage, if I took care of my partner, they would take care of me. I was taught that I would find fulfillment in caring for my husband. I had to learn the hard way that some husbands are just not interesting in caring for a wife. I was naive and I made mistakes, but I thought I was doing the right thing, just as John117 feels he's doing the right thing by staying with a wife who can't meet his needs.
> 
> It's not a matter of not "managing our team" properly. I can lead a team of young adults in a high stress job, but I could never get my husband to do anything he didn't want to do. My employees knew I could fire and replace them, my XH didn't think that would happen. My employees didn't give a crap about my emotional needs, and I was fine with that. I wouldn't want my marriage to be a business arrangement, that would not be a fulfilling emotional relationship to me.


You would be surprised to find how much you can influence people. Especially on non emotional issues like getting chores done. 

It's not a business arrangement but close enough. Some things you can't influence, but a lot you can if you're willing to set and enforce some boundaries.


----------



## OpenWindows

john117 said:


> You would be surprised to find how much you can influence people. Especially on non emotional issues like getting chores done.
> 
> It's not a business arrangement but close enough. Some things you can't influence, but a lot you can if you're willing to set and enforce some boundaries.


You say that you understand it's not really about the chores, but I'm wondering if that's true. Yes, she might be able to influence him to do the chores if she enforces boundaries. But she will still have a husband that doesn't care if she's unhappy or if her needs are met. And as soon as she relaxes those boundaries, he'll stop doing the chores because he doesn't care.

It's kind of like a man complaining about only getting "starfish sex", and being told to just be happy he's getting laid. To him, it's not ONLY about getting off, it's deeper than that. It's wanting an emotional connection.


----------



## Satya

OpenWindows said:


> You say that you understand it's not really about the chores, but I'm wondering if that's true. Yes, she might be able to influence him to do the chores if she enforces boundaries. But she will still have a husband that doesn't care if she's unhappy or if her needs are met. And as soon as she relaxes those boundaries, he'll stop doing the chores because he doesn't care.


Problem is, you can't really "make" someone care about things. I think we all kind of "fake it" sometimes... like that clip that someone posted of Jennifer A. talking about the dishes. We do things to kind of "appease" our loved ones, not because we honestly enjoy those things, but because we love our SO enough join in with them, and hope that those actions are reciprocated. Tit for tat. Now, I firmly believe there's no "owing" in relationships, however efforts in them are at a basic level, a series of transactions.

There are so many examples of this in life... some more important (crucial?) than others, some less important (petty?) than others. My ex H used to leave tons of empty diet soda bottles littered around our apartment and almost NEVER picked them up, despite me asking kindly on occasion, reminding when they were still there, not reminding and gathering them myself, leaving them there, and finally picking them up myself when I was totally fed up and whenever they were lying around, etc. I eventually knew it had nothing to do with the bottles themselves at all. He just didn't give a shyt and I did. That and... I think he was just trying to be P-A. Thankfully, that time is past, but when I see empty bottles lying around the house now, I start to feel a bit triggered, and gather them up.

My response at the time (I was younger and less "relationship mature") was to ignore something important to him until he started nagging ME. So, we came to resent each other in a nice downward spiral, until I got a bomb dropped on me. Next thing I know I was totally OCD and cleaning everything, top to bottom, over and over again. Cleaning became my way of avoiding the pain of my life exploding. Even now, if I feel that I'm going into a "hurt place," I unconsciously start cleaning, doing laundry, dusting, etc, and I don't speak. My SO knows that something is wrong, but he also knows that it's a temporary phase, because in addition to the basic act of cleaning, I've learned to think through my feelings silently and process them whilst doing it. Rather than the cleaning being an avoidance tactic, it is now a kind of a front for a deeper processing and coping mechanism. It's a confrontation tactic so that I don't explode externally with my tumultuous feelings, which was a problem I used to have when younger and less able to filter my words.


----------



## john117

I'm fully aware of the emotional connection aspect. That you can't force. And if its not there it is a moot point to discuss. I.e. my marriage 

However I'm also a firm believer in delegating, outsourcing, ignoring, and above all, triage. And regular status meetings. And tracking. 

Case in point of priorities. I would be elated to deal with chores. I already do 100% of errands and house work. But I am talking BIG THINGS. 

in the case of the expensive house, being ignored is not because I haven't painted bathroom 3 of 7. It's because the expletive house has served its purpose and we should sell it. 

Think long term, and learn to separate true emotional needs from mundane things. A dozen years ago, when my marriage was actually pretty good, my brother passed away after a brief and futile battle with cancer. My wife sort of said all the right things but at the end of the day I received no emotional support whatsoever. 

Tit for tat, the wicked witch of the east aka my mother in law croaked in 2010 and I spent a phenomenal amount of time helping my wife get through it. No appreciation whatsoever.

Stuff like this bothers me, the big stuff. My cat could be sleeping on top of a mountain of socks and I would not care.


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## Blondilocks

John117, Please stop with the nitpicking about the damn socks. You relegate it to the trivial pile and use it as a metaphor. The thing about those damn socks is that they represent his attitude - entitled, couldn't care less about making more work for his wife, he's too good to have to put his socks in the hamper, he doesn't want to have to touch dirty socks - that's why he has a wife. It's demeaning.

I told my husband once that if I had to pick up his socks again, I would be depositing them in the trash. Only had to throw them away one time before he caught on. This was after two months of marriage.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

john117 said:


> Stuff like this bothers me, the big stuff. My cat could be sleeping on top of a mountain of socks and I would not care.


But you see, you are deciding what is priority and what is trivial for all people based on your own wants and needs. Everyone is different. 

Trust me, I do not have high cleaning standards. I have 4 people in a 900sqft house, now I'm sure that's like one of your living rooms but mess in here = people can't walk. 
My room has a dirty laundry pile since the basket broke, that I don't care about. It is not about having to have your cleaning standards met.
The fact that I have to work AND cook and clean up after 4 people and diffuse the sibling fights, and get the library books together and the homework signed and the furnace fixed and the shelves put up all while the other able bodied adult is sitting on his butt playing GTA is something that bothers me because it shows a lack of care for me. Who could sit there and watch someone they love do so much and not care? After I've told him a million times? 

I've started to not clean when he is home because I can't stand to see the lack of care. It just enrages me to the point where I fantasize about throwing the plate I'm washing at his head. That's not healthy. He's working a different shift now so it works, I clean when he's gone. Over Christmas we were both home, he didn't want to clean so neither did I. We ran out of towels and mugs and ended up eating off paper plates, so when he had to go to work last night and dry himself off with a t-shirt maybe someday he'll give a crap enough to help around here.


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## john117

Blondilocks said:


> John117, Please stop with the nitpicking about the damn socks. You relegate it to the trivial pile and use it as a metaphor. The thing about those damn socks is that they represent his attitude - entitled, couldn't care less about making more work for his wife, he's too good to have to put his socks in the hamper, he doesn't want to have to touch dirty socks - that's why he has a wife. It's demeaning.
> 
> I told my husband once that if I had to pick up his socks again, I would be depositing them in the trash. Only had to throw them away one time before he caught on. This was after two months of marriage.


That's called a symbolic reference for those of us with superb literary skills 

After two months of marriage your experience was not unusual. After two years or ten years, it would be.


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## OpenWindows

john117 said:


> That's called a symbolic reference for those of us with superb literary skills
> 
> After two months of marriage your experience was not unusual. After two years or ten years, it would be.


If I had thrown away the socks, my XH would have started picking them up for a few weeks. Then he would taper off. I would throw away more socks, he would clean them up, then taper off. Lather, rinse, repeat.

After a few times, I would call him out on it, and get the speech about how he was doing his best, he can't change the way he is, he will try harder, but ultimately I am being unreasonable and should learn to deal with it. A few weeks later, the socks would be back on the floor.

While we didn't do this with socks, we did it with many other household issues. He would dangle that "I'll try harder" carrot in front of me, just enough to give me hope that it would be better this time. When I finally gave up on that hope, that's when I emotionally checked out. That was the beginning of the end.


----------



## john117

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But you see, you are deciding what is priority and what is trivial for all people based on your own wants and needs. Everyone is different.


I'm presenting a viewpoint, not church dogma... That's the whole point of TAM, no?


----------



## alte Dame

JohnA said:


> In general I do respect and perhaps admire walk away spouses. They didn't lie and they didn't commit adultery. Yea, they might have failed to comunicate what was going on IN TERMS their spouses could understand but they didn't lie and didn't commit adultery. Yea, if there spouse had just listen to them once, things might have worked out different - but in response the walk away did not lie or commit adultery.
> 
> So bless them for that.


I never failed to communicate to my H. I think the WAW goes way past that issue. For me, it wasn't that I wasn't communicating or he wasn't hearing. It was that what I was saying wasn't important enough to him to penetrate to the layer of serious items on his schedule.

Sometimes it was quite literally 'on his schedule.' For example, one of the times I was closest to walking was when I had my annual business trip to Europe from the US. I worked for a German company after living in Germany for a long time. My H traveled about 50% of the time and we now lived in a US city where I had no family or long-time friends, i.e., child care was all hired/paid for.

Every year I would try to coordinate my trip with my H, hoping he wouldn't stick me with the stress of finding overnight child care for my kids while I was away for a week.

EVERY YEAR FOR FOUR YEARS MY H CHECKED HIS SCHEDULE AND TOLD ME THAT HE WOULD BE HOME FOR OUR CHILDREN. EVERY YEAR, I CHECKED WITH HIM IN THE MONTHS BEFORE MY TRIP TO ENSURE THAT I WAS COVERED. EVERY YEAR, THE WEEK BEFORE MY TRIP HE SAID, 'OH, I FORGOT. I HAVE TO BE OUT OF TOWN.'

By the fifth year, I was definitely ready to walk away. He could remember when he was in DC for business or the UK for a meeting or skiing with his family. He could remember the dates and the flights and airports. But he couldn't remember to help me out with our children, his children.

This is just one example of the issues I dealt with.

For me this was never about socks or cooking or poorly chosen gifts.

This was always about respect and love and how you treat someone you respect and love.

I always loved the man he was aside from this crap. That is how I felt stuck for so long. Again, I really believe that this was on me to leave or stay. I finally confronted this in a very serious way. You have to be willing to leave it to save it and I'm hoping we have saved it.


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## ThreeStrikes

SurpriseMyself said:


> If you don't ask yourself this question, you are risking everything.


Haven't read the entire thread. I'm getting lazy.

But really? a spouse is my "everything?"

Perhaps, therein, lies the problem for many.

Pedestals. Expectations. Seeking happiness rather than contentment.

Sigh.

I suppose you could just say "don't marry a selfish person" and call it a day, eh?


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## Ynot

I haven't read the whole thread but to me it seems that we are trying to hit a moving target. Regardless of whether you are a man or a woman, we all change over time. Especially in a world that is changing even more rapidly than we are. So a spouse's needs today may be met by the other. But tomorrow may not be and it may not be possible either. I think in most cases the walk away happens regardless, sometime inside the marriage and others away. The best any of us can do is be true to ourselves because in the end it is really all we have


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

john117 said:


> I'm presenting a viewpoint, not church dogma... That's the whole point of TAM, no?


Well let's say your daughter's marry, get a good career, have a kid or two and call home to Dad one day complaining that her hubby sits on his butt doing nothing while she cooks and cleans all night after work and has to clean up after him because he doesn't even pick up after himself. She's tired, fed up, she's tried over and over again to talk to him about it and nothing helps. She feels like he doesn't care about her at all, feels like he's treating her like a maid and like it's her job because she's a woman. 

Are you going to just tell her eh, there are bigger things in life to worry about. Don't let it bother you?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ThreeStrikes said:


> Haven't read the entire thread. I'm getting lazy.
> 
> But really? a spouse is my "everything?"
> 
> Perhaps, therein, lies the problem for many.
> 
> Pedestals. Expectations. Seeking happiness rather than contentment.


My _family _is my everything, my home, the time and effort it took to get us to where we are in life. A divorce breaks that up and changes everything.


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## john117

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Well let's say your daughter's marry, get a good career, have a kid or two and call home to Dad one day complaining that her hubby sits on his butt doing nothing while she cooks and cleans all night after work and has to clean up after him because he doesn't even pick up after himself. She's tired, fed up, she's tried over and over again to talk to him about it and nothing helps. She feels like he doesn't care about her at all, feels like he's treating her like a maid and like it's her job because she's a woman.
> 
> Are you going to just tell her eh, there are bigger things in life to worry about. Don't let it bother you?


Better yet, I have raised them to speak their mind early and often, and to know to look for the signs of being taken for granted. 

No love is worth that.


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## turnera

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I've started to not clean when he is home because I can't stand to see the lack of care. It just enrages me to the point where I fantasize about throwing the plate I'm washing at his head. That's not healthy. He's working a different shift now so it works, I clean when he's gone. Over Christmas we were both home, he didn't want to clean so neither did I. We ran out of towels and mugs and ended up eating off paper plates, so when he had to go to work last night and dry himself off with a t-shirt maybe someday he'll give a crap enough to help around here.


I go through that, too. Not wanting to clean when he clearly won't help. So my house is now a pigsty because I refuse to continue to do as much as I used to do, when he won't help. And yes, I've told him so. "If I'm the only one cleaning, this is what you get now." But I'm about to have the 'I'm no longer doing your laundry' talk again, because I see the rut I've fallen into from just not dealing with it.


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## ThreeStrikes

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> My _family _is my everything, my home, the time and effort it took to get us to where we are in life. A divorce breaks that up and changes everything.


As I said, "perhaps, therein, lies the problem for many".


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

john117 said:


> Better yet, I have raised them to speak their mind early and often, and to know to look for the signs of being taken for granted.
> 
> No love is worth that.


Of course but so many women end up not having a problem until AFTER the kids are born. Before then it's just the two of them and easy to split things, doing a little more here or there doesn't bother you and isn't a big deal. You like to give to your partner because you're in love.
Kids are born and often the new roles get put right on Mom, now it's unbalanced and never gets balanced back out, she's more tired, up all night, less time to take on a little more here and there. But by then it's hard to leave. You have kids now. Add to that the woman takes some time off at home, does the SAHM role for a bit and then goes back to work, the husband doesn't add back on his half of things or even understand what half of it even is with the new dynamic. 

He thinks if he just does the outside work, some manly fixing of things at home, takes the garbage out once a week, he's good. Meanwhile she's losing love bank points daily and eventually stops wanting to meet ANY of his needs.


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## Adelais

john117 said:


> Then don't let it become an issue. You show vulnerabilities that could and were exploited.


In marriage people are supposed to be allowed to be vulnerable. The other spouse is not supposed to exploit those vulnerabilities, but to "cover" or protect the vulnerable spouse.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

turnera said:


> I go through that, too. Not wanting to clean when he clearly won't help. So my house is now a pigsty because I refuse to continue to do as much as I used to do, when he won't help. And yes, I've told him so. "If I'm the only one cleaning, this is what you get now." But I'm about to have the 'I'm no longer doing your laundry' talk again, because I see the rut I've fallen into from just not dealing with it.


We went through a time where he would get all mad at me when stuff wasn't done. That wasn't pretty. It took a few times of me shrugging and saying "hey, if you wanted clean dishes you should have washed some" before he got the point but he'll still usually give a "Why don't we have any clean forks!?" now and then and I have to remind him. 

My place is a mess too. We were having someone coming by, we didn't know about it until about an hour before they were coming. Both of us went into full cleaning mode and got it all done quickly. If we just did that 15 minutes a day it could be a heck of a lot better than it is now. I just can't get him to that point yet.

I got him to the point where he does his own laundry but then leaves it in the dryer so if I need to do some, I have to take his out anyway.


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## ExiledBayStater

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Add to that the woman takes some time off at home, does the SAHM role for a bit and then goes back to work, the husband doesn't add back on his half of things or even understand what half of it even is with the new dynamic.


So, this hits a personal nerve for me. I really hope my wife is going to be willing to go part time, because the stress on the whole family of her working full time isn't worth it. Not for $10 an hour with no benefits.


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## Adelais

JohnA said:


> @IMFarAboveRubies,
> 
> Did you read/hear only the partial qoute of one sentence in my post? Did you miss the second sentence? Did you notice a common theme ? Did you miss the word respect and admire ?
> 
> I heard you and others which is why I posted using the terms respect, admire, bless and all you got out of it was "I am sure...." ?


Yes, I heard that part and almost "liked" what you said except I couldn't because of the part I highlighted and corrected. 

WAW, and most women in general, do try every means to communicate their needs and complaints to their husbands, but some husbands just can't hear how important what their wives are saying is to them or take them seriously...hence the name, "nagging wife."

Thank you john, for hearing what the women here are saying.


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## Adelais

john117 said:


> Stuff like this bothers me, the big stuff. My cat could be sleeping on top of a mountain of socks and I would not care.


Not true if the socks are a metaphor representing the constant lack of emotional support that you need but are not getting from your wife.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ExiledBayStater said:


> So, this hits a personal nerve for me. I really hope my wife is going to be willing to go part time, because the stress on the whole family of her working full time isn't worth it. Not for $10 an hour with no benefits.


It's a such a personal choice and knowing that many marriages do end in divorce, she may want that protection of building her career/not having big gaps in her resume and not having to be dependent on you. 
You see some men get all pissy about having to pay spouse/child support for women to get back on her feet after doing just this. It can cause problems.

I make more now but then, not much. It was all about my own independence and safety net


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## JohnA

Did anyone bring their spouse's family into the mix at some point? My parents would drop hints about my behavior at times without sticking their noise into our marriage. Once early on at a party my dad quietly asked me to think about what I was doing. I know they gave a lot of support to one spouse as a sib faced down their problem with alcohol. 

I know human nature makes this hard, but if our spouses family can help they should be asked. Then again my folks were not the norm in many ways. Best way I can explain it is first they always demand better of their children while protecting them.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It's a such a personal choice and knowing that many marriages do end in divorce, she may want that protection of building her career/not having big gaps in her resume and not having to be dependent on you.
> You see some men get all pissy about having to pay spouse/child support for women to get back on her feet after doing just this. It can cause problems.
> 
> I make more now but then, not much. It was all about my own independence and safety net


I do understand what you're saying.

My issue is that it won't make it any easier, for me or her, to come home after a full day of work and do an unprecedented amount of housework.

With apologies to Albert Einstein, one cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for divorce.


----------



## OpenWindows

JohnA said:


> Did anyone bring their spouse's family into the mix at some point? My parents would drop hints about my behavior at times without sticking their noise into our marriage. Once early on at a party my dad quietly asked me to think about what I was doing. I know they gave a lot of support to one spouse as a sib faced down their problem with alcohol.
> 
> I know human nature makes this hard, but if our spouses family can help they should be asked. Then again my folks were not the norm in many ways. Best way I can explain it is first they always demand better of their children while protecting them.


My XH's mother and grandmother would sometimes make comments about the way he treated me. They would tell him to do more, take care of me, etc. He wrote them off as being nosy and critical, and not understanding how our marriage worked.

This was normal for him, he generally wrote off anything he didn't agree with. I think it could work for some people better than others.


----------



## john117

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> In marriage people are supposed to be allowed to be vulnerable. The other spouse is not supposed to exploit those vulnerabilities, but to "cover" or protect the vulnerable spouse.


Theory and practice are a bit divergent 

If someone had told me I'd be using my ten years of psychology education for my marriage I'd laugh. Marriage is supposed to be all roses and kittens and such. I got the kitten part right but not much else


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

JohnA said:


> Did anyone bring their spouse's family into the mix at some point? My parents would drop hints about my behavior at times without sticking their noise into our marriage. Once early on at a party my dad quietly asked me to think about what I was doing. I know they gave a lot of support to one spouse as a sib faced down their problem with alcohol.
> 
> I know human nature makes this hard, but if our spouses family can help they should be asked. Then again my folks were not the norm in many ways. Best way I can explain it is first they always demand better of their children while protecting them.


My MIL feels it's a woman's job so she's no help. When I was back at work after the baby I had to tell H that he had to tell her either she can't come to visit or HE needs to clean up for it, he called and told her she couldn't come over because the house was a mess (thanks H) and she asked him why the heck wasn't I cleaning it then?

He was laid off recently and home for about a month. He was talking to her on speaker phone saying I was annoyed that the house was a disaster and I heard her say "since you have some time off you might want to do some of the cooking or something to help her out a bit"
If that was my son I would be telling him he'd darn well be being the best househusband he can possibly be and make sure that house is spotless when she comes through that door. 
But then I'm drilling in him that chores are not HERS. He does not _help _a woman with chores. It's his job.


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## JohnA

@OpenWindows his refusal to listen to family or friends is a big red flag for me.


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## OpenWindows

JohnA said:


> @OpenWindows his refusal to listen to family or friends is a big red flag for me.


It should have been a red flag for me too. But I was young and naive and in love, and I wanted to believe it would get better. It took a very long time for me to really connect the dots and understand how his thought process was working. Figuring it out was the wake-up call that made me realize it would never change and I had to leave.


----------



## kag123

turnera said:


> MY GP sent me to a stress therapist once after I started having physical problems from my unhappiness. The therapist told me that 75% of her clients are women and almost always because they are giving SO much, to everyone, that they always put themselves last, and thus develop stress problems. That most women are raised to step up and get things done, make sure everyone has what they want or need, and that society still looks down on women who are strong or vocal ("a strong man is assertive; a strong woman is a b*tch") and are usually the ones who back down when a spouse pushes the issue. So women sit and stew; still do the stuff that needs done, but stew nonetheless. Until their body just can't do it any more.


I'm catching up on this thread at the moment - so this will be late. But, my own doctor also told me this when I finally had my first nervous breakdown and reluctantly decided to try SSRI meds. I've had good luck with them. 

It got me thinking about my mom, though and the generations before her. (Such as her mom who she tells stories about.) My parents have been married for 40 years in good times and bad. They pride themselves on that fact. However, as I moved out of their house and started to see their marriage more objectively as an outsider, I realized I often asked myself "why do they stay together??". There's a lot of unhappiness there and especially on the part of my mom, she puts up with a lot and never stands her ground to ask for anything different from my dad. 

The thing is - she is very proud of herself for sticking with him, swallowing years of bad behavior from him and keeping their life going together regardless. She says that is the right thing to do. She's even told me at times when I've shared with her what I argue with my H about, that as a wife I should learn to take the crap, absorb it and never speak of it. Because someone has to do it to keep the peace, and that's the wife's job. Self-sacrifice is in the job description. She learned this from her mom, who was married to an abusive alcoholic and also stayed for 40 years taking the abuse daily. She tells stories of my grandma painting her to be a hero and a saint for all that she endured and how she kept a smile on her face the whole time. Took care of the kids and kept them away from their fathers rages and physical violence when he was drunk, taking the abuse herself instead. She died of a stroke at age 60. You have to wonder if that is not one of the reasons. 

Up until very recently, only the last few years, I held the same opinion of my mom as she did of hers. Wow she's a saint for keeping her marriage together. I love my mom and dad dearly and always will but now I wonder if I was idolizing the wrong things. Why is it "wrong" for a woman to ask for what she wants and try to change the dynamic of her marriage if it's not meeting her needs? What's wrong with speaking up and finding out if your partner is willing to meet you halfway? 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## JohnA

Has anyone suggested reading DayOne's thread to OP ? He not only turned his marriage around, he turned his life around

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/221290-day-one.html


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## NobodySpecial

JukeboxHero said:


> Wow, that sounds like my wife, Elegirl. I even asked her how she felt about my games before we got married. She said she was fine with them and even put up with them for awhile. Later she revealed that she never like them even before we got married and expected me to just drop everything because "I'm married now" and Lord know that there are no husbands out there who have any hobbies or games that they play with friends or their children.
> 
> On the other hand, I could've been more "present" like 3xnocharm said. This thread is really enlightening. I'm glad to see so many opinions. I certainly hope I can be a better husband for my next wife.


This was me early on, though I did not withhold info and change my tune after marriage. Just stuff that had not previously come up that I had assumed. I had a vision in my head about what "marriage" was. And a husband needs to do certain things to *be* a "husband". Then I went on usenet and got my ass handed to me. To be a good wife, I needed to love and accept HIM not mold him into my vision of "marriage". (I mean there was more but not related to this topic.


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## john117

A heartwarming tale for sure - and proof positive it is doable. But doable is in the eye of the beholder. If the WAP (partner) is able and willing to work with you then its doable. 

A lot of WAP's are like toothpaste. When they come out of the tube that's it, no going back.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

MattMatt said:


> She keeps telling me she is going to be a WAW.
> 
> So, should I just ignore that threat until it becomes a reality?:scratchhead:


I say let her walk. Matt you seem like a good man who is a good husband. You deserve a better partner than a volatile, ASD cheater.


----------



## kag123

alphaomega said:


> Op
> 
> I agree communication and listening and compassion are all required for a good marriage....but...
> 
> There's one major flaw in your post. "Those are all just excuses" is a broad sweep and entirely based on your experience. It's well documented that males have subtlety different brain chemistry than females, and that tiny difference makes ALL the difference. There's a reason why that saying "men are just men" is very common. Because it's true.
> 
> Males are very literal. While women speak emotionally. And the two don't mix at all. You could rant and explain all you want, and it's like hitting a brick wall with a bat. It just won't make a dent. Which is why guys get blind sided when divorce happens under these circumstances. While "you" could see it happen a million miles away and are actually flabbergasted by our "I didn't know anything was wrong..." Response.
> 
> If you want to equate it with "love languages", you two are speaking very different ones. Call it "gender languages" if you will.
> 
> Perhaps you didn't understand your ex spouse as well as you thought.


I was thinking this too as I am reading through this entire thread. I'm a woman and I own that my husbands style of communication AND his ability to relieve my style of communication are different than my own. 

One of THE biggest items I struggle with in marriage is this: Women are "emotional" and men are "logical" (broad generalization here). 

I happen to be a woman engineer with a strong dose of both emotion and logic. I often feel that I am seeing all sides of an issue flooding my brain at once, and then trying to tailor a response to the intended audience. 

When I was younger, I used to think that ALL people thought exactly the same way that I do. I would get frustrated - "Why can't he just SEE what he needs to do?". I think that is a common misconception (naivety). The biggest problem is that I would then leap into the next step in the destruction cycle of chalking up the lack of understanding to some malicious intent on his part to F with me. A purposeful ignoring of the issues is what I thought it was. When you start thinking the other person is acting out of malice, the love dies, and you become a victim of your own confirmation bias. 

That was MY problem - not his. 

Now, I see that he does NOT think like me. Not even close. He does not readily see what might upset me, because those same things do not bother him at all. I stopped expecting him to understand me via osmosis and started trying something different.

I find emotion to be particularly overwhelming and do not like that I am so tied to it. I see it as a weakness that clouds the logical part of my mind...something prone to introducing bias and clouding judgment. Nevertheless I have emotion, strong ones, and they are a part of me that I must learn to accept. This has been a personal path I've been on for a few years now without my husbands involvement. In order to feel comfortable with a decision, I need to know I made it during a time of calm rationale and not when under the influence of strong emotion. That is so difficult. 

My technique now with my marriage is this:

At moment of Impetus: 

- Strong emotion hits. Try to separate myself from situation as much as possible to get space to clear my head. 

- Let emotion wash over me. I used to try to stuff my feelings and reject them. They never go away when I do that. Letting the tide wash over me is the only way to release them for good. 

- Examine the reaction I had. Why did I feel so strongly about that? What is the core of the upset?

- Determine if any action is needed, either my own or his, to resolve the situation. Sometimes I can own that I overreacted and there's no logical next step to take. Sometimes I can see I did something wrong and all of the actions needed are for me, not him. 

- IF I need something from him, come up with concise actions that can be presented clearly to him. This is absolutely the most difficult part for me. I realize "men" often need to feel like they are doing something to fix a problem. I try to speak his language this way. Instead of saying "I need to be made to feel that you understand me when I talk" (how does one do that, exactly?), I will try to say "When I share something important with you, it takes a lot of courage for me to open up. When you act disinterested by playing on your phone or continuing to do a chore while I am talking, it makes me feel that you are not interested and that it is not safe for me to share myself with you. I know you probably don't mean anything by your actions, but these topics are very sensitive for me and very difficult for me to talk about. Sometimes when we are talking about things that are lighter topics - plans for the weekend and things like that - I do not care if you are continuing to complete a task at the same time. But if I specifically ask you to stop doing XYZ when I am talking, you will know it means that I need your full undivided attention at that moment because what I want to talk about is important. Can you do that for me?" 

I've seen good results with this so far. Every concrete action I request of him he does enthusiastically, and that goes in direct opposition of my previous thoughts about him (he's purposely ignoring my needs to F with me). It's more like - he knows when I'm unhappy but feels absolutely lost on how to fix it without making it worse unless I tell him what to do to help. This changed my whole attitude about our marriage. He's not this person who is a selfish jerk trying to mess with me. He is a good guy with good intentions who just needs better instructions. His INTENTIONs are coming from a good place. That made the world of difference to me. 

The hardest thing for ME in all of this is to figure out how to boil down the complexity of my needs into quantifiable actions that I can request of him. With that comes an examination of what is truly "fair" for you to expect from a partner vs what you are supposed to provide yourself. "Happiness" is one of those items. It isn't your partners job to make you happy. They can influence your happiness, and one of my jobs as a partner IMO is to examine what he can do to influence my happiness and add to it, but at the end of the day he's just helping set up an environment for me to be happy. It's my choice whether to accept it and move forward with the rest of the work required to get there on my own. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## RoseAglow

I am "spatially challenged" and couldn't pull off engineering, but I really relate to your post!!



kag123 said:


> When I was younger, I used to think that ALL people thought exactly the same way that I do. I would get frustrated - "Why can't he just SEE what he needs to do?". I think that is a common misconception (naivety). _The biggest problem is that I would then leap into the next step in the destruction cycle of chalking up the lack of understanding to some malicious intent on his part to F with me. A purposeful ignoring of the issues is what I thought it was. When you start thinking the other person is acting out of malice, the love dies, and you become a victim of your own confirmation bias.
> _
> That was MY problem - not his.


I think you just gave a great example of one of the most destructive instincts that we fallible humans tend to have. MB labels them "disrespectful judgements". We all instinctively try to figure out the motivation behind the other person's words, thought, and/or actions. Then we apply a judgement to it. 

It is actually very destructive when it comes to relationships. We tend to think the worst, and this sours our feelings towards the person. It also makes them feel negatively towards us. It's a lose-lose scenario. 



> My technique now with my marriage is this:
> 
> At moment of Impetus:
> 
> - Strong emotion hits. Try to separate myself from situation as much as possible to get space to clear my head.
> 
> - Let emotion wash over me. I used to try to stuff my feelings and reject them. They never go away when I do that. Letting the tide wash over me is the only way to release them for good.
> 
> - Examine the reaction I had. Why did I feel so strongly about that? What is the core of the upset?
> 
> - Determine if any action is needed, either my own or his, to resolve the situation. Sometimes I can own that I overreacted and there's no logical next step to take. Sometimes I can see I did something wrong and all of the actions needed are for me, not him.


I love this! This is what I try to do, too. My first step is nearly always to get away, get some space around me so I can catch my breath. 

I get the impression that we are relatively unusual for women. While on TAM, I've seen that most women really want to be engaged during times of high emotion, even and maybe especially when there's high emotion due to conflict. It makes them feel safe. I am the opposite, I only feel safe when I've gotten some space. 



> - IF I need something from him, come up with concise actions that can be presented clearly to him. This is absolutely the most difficult part for me. I realize "men" often need to feel like they are doing something to fix a problem. I try to speak his language this way. Instead of saying "I need to be made to feel that you understand me when I talk" (how does one do that, exactly?), I will try to say "When I share something important with you, it takes a lot of courage for me to open up. When you act disinterested by playing on your phone or continuing to do a chore while I am talking, it makes me feel that you are not interested and that it is not safe for me to share myself with you. I know you probably don't mean anything by your actions, but these topics are very sensitive for me and very difficult for me to talk about. Sometimes when we are talking about things that are lighter topics - plans for the weekend and things like that - I do not care if you are continuing to complete a task at the same time. But if I specifically ask you to stop doing XYZ when I am talking, you will know it means that I need your full undivided attention at that moment because what I want to talk about is important. Can you do that for me?"
> 
> I've seen good results with this so far. Every concrete action I request of him he does enthusiastically, and that goes in direct opposition of my previous thoughts about him (he's purposely ignoring my needs to F with me). It's more like - he knows when I'm unhappy but feels absolutely lost on how to fix it without making it worse unless I tell him what to do to help. This changed my whole attitude about our marriage. He's not this person who is a selfish jerk trying to mess with me. He is a good guy with good intentions who just needs better instructions. His INTENTIONs are coming from a good place. That made the world of difference to me.


This kind of communication has worked well for me in my marriage as well. I try very hard to avoid judgements and just stick to facts. I try to make thoughtful requests, and he always has the right to decline them without fear of retribution. I might change what I do if he declines, but it won't be to punish or make him feel bad. Ideally we'd figure out how to handle it together.

I have to say though, I think many of the WA spouses have been as clear as they can be. I think that the left-behinds haven't yet had your wake-up moment where you realized that your husband is not actually messing with you. I think their left-behinds are still responding with the all-too-human tendency to make disrespectful judgements about the requests. 

I believe this because they often DO have the epiphany when the spouse actually walks away. All of a sudden, they remember the attempts that the spouses made. The judgements about the requests have been removed. They did hear it, it just didn't get past their own filter.



> The hardest thing for ME in all of this is to figure out how to boil down the complexity of my needs into quantifiable actions that I can request of him. With that comes an examination of what is truly "fair" for you to expect from a partner vs what you are supposed to provide yourself. "Happiness" is one of those items. It isn't your partners job to make you happy. They can influence your happiness, and one of my jobs as a partner IMO is to examine what he can do to influence my happiness and add to it, but at the end of the day he's just helping set up an environment for me to be happy. It's my choice whether to accept it and move forward with the rest of the work required to get there on my own.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


You can definitely be happy without a partner. If you have one, though, a lot of your happiness depends on him or her. He is either meeting your needs and generating love, or he isn't. He is providing care, a safe place, love...or he isn't. 

It is much better to be without a partner then to be with a partner who is neglectful, which is to say, not providing care. It might be neutral between you, and it's still better to be single. This has been shown in several studies to be the case for women. Men tend to fare better bring married, even in mediocre marriages. Marriage is only protective for women if it's a happy marriage, they tend to fare badly in mediocre or poor marriages. Single women fare better than all but happily married women.

I have also wondered what is a fair request, or a fair expectation. At least at this point in time, I need my H to meet my top needs. Primarily, I need him to be sober, affectionate, and supportive emotionally (which means we talk a lot and I trust that he looks out for my best interests), domestically (he helps with the house), financially (he works), and family-wise (he is very hands-on with our son). I also want him sexually, too. It's a lot, but I give him a lot back as well. Everything else, we try to negotiate.


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## Adelais

ExiledBayStater said:


> So, this hits a personal nerve for me. I really hope my wife is going to be willing to go part time, because the stress on the whole family of her working full time isn't worth it. Not for $10 an hour with no benefits.


Have you discussed with your wife which household duties she is currently doing that will need to be taken on by other members of the family so she can be out of the home 10 + ? hours (have to count travel, lunch, etc.).

And not just chores, but making appointments (Dr. apptmts, exterminator), scheduling/planning children's activites and getting them equipped and delivered, taking care of miscellaneious other business (running errands.), etc.?


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## Florida_rosbif

Bravo kag123, you've found a way to make sure that the necessary messages are actually taken onboard by your hubby. If your marriage were to end in a WAW scenario, he couldn't say that he didn't see it coming. 

I do wish that my wife WW had implemented a means of communicating clearly what she needed from me. She's an engineer too, but I guess she hadn't thought the communication issues through as thoroughly as you.


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## EleGirl

Florida_rosbif said:


> Bravo kag123, you've found a way to make sure that the necessary messages are actually taken onboard by your hubby. If your marriage were to end in a WAW scenario, he couldn't say that he didn't see it coming.
> 
> I do wish that my wife WW had implemented a means of communicating clearly what she needed from me. She's an engineer too, but I guess she hadn't thought the communication issues through as thoroughly as you.


Sadly that does not work on everyone. For some people, it's not that they do not hear, it is that they do not care. For people with that mind set, it does not matter how clearly something is stated.

.


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## Ynot

I see this thread has had a lot of posts but I still think the idea that you can prevent something is predicated on the fact that you saw it coming. While a WA may feel they communicated their feelings, the fact is the message wasn't received because it was not recognized by the LB. Hind sight is 20/20. The whole exercise is just backward thinking and fosters regrets or allows the WA to excuse their actions. The reality is that in most cases both sides were acting the best way they knew how and the real problem was they didn't know better.


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## ExiledBayStater

This thread does not affirm my faith in the institution of marriage. Specifically my fitness as a husband. I guess my wife will be the judge of that.


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## PieceOfSky

kag123 said:


> It got me thinking about my mom, though and the generations before her. (Such as her mom who she tells stories about.) My parents have been married for 40 years in good times and bad. They pride themselves on that fact. However, as I moved out of their house and started to see their marriage more objectively as an outsider, I realized I often asked myself "why do they stay together??". *There's a lot of unhappiness there and especially on the part of my mom, she puts up with a lot and never stands her ground to ask for anything different from my dad.
> *
> *The thing is - she is very proud of herself for sticking with him, swallowing years of bad behavior from him and keeping their life going together regardless. She says that is the right thing to do. She's even told me at times when I've shared with her what I argue with my H about, that as a wife I should learn to take the crap, absorb it and never speak of it. Because someone has to do it to keep the peace, and that's the wife's job. Self-sacrifice is in the job description.* *She learned this from her mom, who was married to an abusive alcoholic and also stayed for 40 years taking the abuse daily. **She tells stories of my grandma painting her to be a hero and a saint for all that she endured and how she kept a smile on her face the whole time. Took care of the kids and kept them away from their fathers rages and physical violence when he was drunk, taking the abuse herself instead. *She died of a stroke at age 60. You have to wonder if that is not one of the reasons.
> 
> Up until very recently, only the last few years, I held the same opinion of my mom as she did of hers. Wow she's a saint for keeping her marriage together.* I love my mom and dad dearly and always will but now I wonder if I was idolizing the wrong things. *_Why is it "wrong" for a woman to ask for what she wants and try to change the dynamic of her marriage if it's not meeting her needs? What's wrong with speaking up and finding out if your partner is willing to meet you halfway?
> _


It is NOT wrong for anyone to ask for what she (or he) wants and try to change the dynamic of the marriage when it is not meeting her or his needs. It is NOT wrong to speak up and find out if your partner is willing to meet you halfway. 

I'd go further: Seeking YOUR own contentment and happiness in life in a way that is compatible with basic human needs as well as your own unique interests and desires is a respectable and moral thing to do. It's what I want my children to do. It's what I want my children to feel naturally drawn to do during their time on this earth.

Sacrifice as inherently virtuous is a notion the culture I grew up in seemed to promote. I find that regrettable these days, and if nudged might have more to say about it than most would care to hear. When I think back to my grandmother's time, though, it doesn't take me long to realize I don't really have a good grasp of what life was like then -- I'm certain her parents and grandparents had much to worry about -- survival wise (literally), and I've had the luxury of taking all that for granted. I'm also certain my grandmother had very limited options to be self-supportive simpy because she was a woman, than, say, my daughters will ever face or I could ever understand. So, I don't feel qualified to second guess life choices made back then by her or anyone. Yet, I wouldn't be surprised if, in making choices myself now, or in talking with my children some day, I'd favor different choices and different paths than say folks from earlier generations might have at the time.

But, besides "maybe the times were so different then" thoughts that come to my mind, you mentioned something that probably overshadows all that.

Alcoholism, abuse, etc. are nasty things we aren't born knowing how to cope with and free ourselves from. No doubt your grandmother was indeed a heroine in some very meaningful ways. Who knows, her choice to not make waves very well might have made the difference between her children living or dying, even you existing or not. It might have been the only choice she had, or the best one that she could see. In this context, I can understand how one might feel respect, even pride, about your grandmother having endured what she did. I wouldn't want to diminish that memory of her in the least.

Yet, imho, the sickness and dysfunction in your grandparents lives is important to consider. People faced with that sort of thing seek ways to cope, and, very often pay a price for coping mechanisms they find. Reality gets distorted, and what is truly "normal" and "healthy" gets lost or forgotten. Sometimes, those distortions get passed down until someone questions "all their answers", and looks at it all from a safer place and with more information. Maybe that's what you are doing now?

I don't know what you and your husband argue about, but simply learning "to take the crap, absorb it and never speak of it" seems like a recipie for disaster. You clearly don't want the sort of marriage your parents have, and have the capacity to think for yourself and find your own way forward. Sometimes our parents are wrong.


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## tech-novelist

kag123 said:


> I was thinking this too as I am reading through this entire thread. I'm a woman and I own that my husbands style of communication AND his ability to relieve my style of communication are different than my own.
> 
> One of THE biggest items I struggle with in marriage is this: Women are "emotional" and men are "logical" (broad generalization here).
> 
> I happen to be a woman engineer with a strong dose of both emotion and logic. I often feel that I am seeing all sides of an issue flooding my brain at once, and then trying to tailor a response to the intended audience.
> 
> When I was younger, I used to think that ALL people thought exactly the same way that I do. I would get frustrated - "Why can't he just SEE what he needs to do?". I think that is a common misconception (naivety). The biggest problem is that I would then leap into the next step in the destruction cycle of chalking up the lack of understanding to some malicious intent on his part to F with me. A purposeful ignoring of the issues is what I thought it was. When you start thinking the other person is acting out of malice, the love dies, and you become a victim of your own confirmation bias.
> 
> That was MY problem - not his.
> 
> Now, I see that he does NOT think like me. Not even close. He does not readily see what might upset me, because those same things do not bother him at all. I stopped expecting him to understand me via osmosis and started trying something different.
> 
> I find emotion to be particularly overwhelming and do not like that I am so tied to it. I see it as a weakness that clouds the logical part of my mind...something prone to introducing bias and clouding judgment. Nevertheless I have emotion, strong ones, and they are a part of me that I must learn to accept. This has been a personal path I've been on for a few years now without my husbands involvement. In order to feel comfortable with a decision, I need to know I made it during a time of calm rationale and not when under the influence of strong emotion. That is so difficult.
> 
> My technique now with my marriage is this:
> 
> At moment of Impetus:
> 
> - Strong emotion hits. Try to separate myself from situation as much as possible to get space to clear my head.
> 
> - Let emotion wash over me. I used to try to stuff my feelings and reject them. They never go away when I do that. Letting the tide wash over me is the only way to release them for good.
> 
> - Examine the reaction I had. Why did I feel so strongly about that? What is the core of the upset?
> 
> - Determine if any action is needed, either my own or his, to resolve the situation. Sometimes I can own that I overreacted and there's no logical next step to take. Sometimes I can see I did something wrong and all of the actions needed are for me, not him.
> 
> - IF I need something from him, come up with concise actions that can be presented clearly to him. This is absolutely the most difficult part for me. I realize "men" often need to feel like they are doing something to fix a problem. I try to speak his language this way. Instead of saying "I need to be made to feel that you understand me when I talk" (how does one do that, exactly?), I will try to say "When I share something important with you, it takes a lot of courage for me to open up. When you act disinterested by playing on your phone or continuing to do a chore while I am talking, it makes me feel that you are not interested and that it is not safe for me to share myself with you. I know you probably don't mean anything by your actions, but these topics are very sensitive for me and very difficult for me to talk about. Sometimes when we are talking about things that are lighter topics - plans for the weekend and things like that - I do not care if you are continuing to complete a task at the same time. But if I specifically ask you to stop doing XYZ when I am talking, you will know it means that I need your full undivided attention at that moment because what I want to talk about is important. Can you do that for me?"
> 
> I've seen good results with this so far. Every concrete action I request of him he does enthusiastically, and that goes in direct opposition of my previous thoughts about him (he's purposely ignoring my needs to F with me). It's more like - he knows when I'm unhappy but feels absolutely lost on how to fix it without making it worse unless I tell him what to do to help. This changed my whole attitude about our marriage. He's not this person who is a selfish jerk trying to mess with me. He is a good guy with good intentions who just needs better instructions. His INTENTIONs are coming from a good place. That made the world of difference to me.
> 
> The hardest thing for ME in all of this is to figure out how to boil down the complexity of my needs into quantifiable actions that I can request of him. With that comes an examination of what is truly "fair" for you to expect from a partner vs what you are supposed to provide yourself. "Happiness" is one of those items. It isn't your partners job to make you happy. They can influence your happiness, and one of my jobs as a partner IMO is to examine what he can do to influence my happiness and add to it, but at the end of the day he's just helping set up an environment for me to be happy. It's my choice whether to accept it and move forward with the rest of the work required to get there on my own.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


 @kag123: You need to write this up somewhere that it will be more accessible than it is when buried in this long thread. I think it is one of the best analyses of how to deal with this problem (obviously depending on the personality types involved).


----------



## SurpriseMyself

JohnA said:


> Has anyone suggested reading DayOne's thread to OP ? He not only turned his marriage around, he turned his life around
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/221290-day-one.html


Thanks, john. I just started reading dayone's post and am already seeing distinct differences. First, he gave her space to move out. Compare that to my STBXH, who didn't take the kids to his parents or anywhere else, so they basically watched me pack up over a single weekend. He did take them out for about an hour while the moving guys packed the truck.

The other things that are different are he viewed the separation as an opportunity to do some positive things for himself and he sought out counseling. He also said that his top priority was for both of them to be happy. I said this to my STBXH, but he said his priority was to have his kids under his roof every night regardless of how unhappy either of us are. My happiness was never his concern.


If my STBXH was the kind of man day one is, we probably never would have separated in the first place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ExiledBayStater

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Have you discussed with your wife which household duties she is currently doing that will need to be taken on by other members of the family so she can be out of the home 10 + ? hours (have to count travel, lunch, etc.).
> 
> And not just chores, but making appointments (Dr. apptmts, exterminator), scheduling/planning children's activites and getting them equipped and delivered, taking care of miscellaneious other business (running errands.), etc.?


Household chores were split 50/50 prior to pregnancy as she is working full-time. Now I do a bit more. It's manageable. I'm more concerned about the additional obligations that having a child will bring. Evening and nightime care are very different when one parent has a full-time job than when both do.

She did agree to prioritize my work obligations when they conflict with hers. She does not want me to take a pay cut to avoid the occasional business trip, and assured me that she'll insist on time off from her job when I must travel.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

EleGirl said:


> Sadly that does not work on everyone. For some people, it's not that they do not hear, it is that they do not care. For people with that mind set, it does not matter how clearly something is stated.
> 
> .


Yep. I don't care what gender you are, if someone is saying "You need to help around the house more. I need you to do the floors and livingroom this weekend" they hear you, they just don't do it. There's no mix up in communication because of emotions or logic or whatever, they just don't care to listen. 

No WAW has tried just 1 method of communicating. They try them all, over and over again. By the time they leave, if they weren't heard it was not for lack of trying or because they didn't say it properly. Their partner didn't care enough, didn't believe they would actually leave.
When they do go, they wake up. Not because they suddenly hear words they've never heard before but because he knows she is serious and WILL actually leave his @ss over it. 
Before that, he thinks he can slide, get away with the bare minimum and give juuuust enough to keep her from walking out the door and doesn't understand the concept of giving emotional needs to keep his wife happy.


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## kag123

EleGirl said:


> Sadly that does not work on everyone. For some people, it's not that they do not hear, it is that they do not care. For people with that mind set, it does not matter how clearly something is stated.
> 
> .


I 100% agree and didn't mean for my post to insinuate otherwise. 

My only point was that IF you've thoroughly cleaned your side of the street and made crystal clear attempts at fixing things, and your partner still doesn't or won't listen. Then you should have nothing to feel guilty about, "walking away".

For me personally - I have always been the type of person who leaves at the first sign of hurdles in a relationship. I had a weird upbringing where no one ever worked on their problems, directly addressing issues was a no-no, and if you really pushed it you were exiled from the family. So with my marriage there have been many times when I've thought about leaving. Literally in the dark of the night with a single bag and never looking back. My H has honestly never done anything to deserve THAT type of a response. Never abusive or cheating or anything. That was just me and my nature. I felt (still do) most comfortable having one foot out the door and the idea of being alone. 

So...for me to have an idea in my head that he was being purposefully negligent by not meeting my needs and that I was a victim...it was a dangerous mind set for my marriage. I am the type of person who would "walk away" and never look back. 

What changed that first was having kids. Suddenly there was no clean break to be had. No "never looking back" if I left. To be honest that terrified me. 

What changed second was that I grew up a bit and started focusing on myself. Once I started communicating better and SAW that he responded to it enthusiastically - that blew my whole idea of him out of the water. It was my light bulb moment when I realized my perception of him had been wrong. 

IF I had been doing all the "right" things and he dismissed me or was obviously ignoring me, that would have been a totally different outcome. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Another thought, I wonder if a 180-like change would wake some of these guys up, or at least prep her for the leaving stage?
Focus on you, get a hair cut, some new clothes, go out, have fun, stop caring and just live your own life. 

But I would caution all WAW to have extra boundaries up if going out with friends and learning new hobbies. They are in a very vulnerable position and any spouse having both unmet needs and independent behavior from their spouse is a recipe for disaster.


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## john117

It may work assuming the other side is unaware of his behavior and its impact. If he's doing it knowingly, I would not bother. 

It's the male version of evil vs stoopid. There's some really good women here that will soon walk / have walked because their partners were too busy or this or that. As much as I want to believe the reason is always stoopid, I gotta wonderful about the type of guy person that will knowingly blow up a marriage. 

Could it be they simply want out but are too busy to initiate the process?


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## OpenWindows

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Another thought, I wonder if a 180-like change would wake some of these guys up, or at least prep her for the leaving stage?
> Focus on you, get a hair cut, some new clothes, go out, have fun, stop caring and just live your own life.
> 
> But I would caution all WAW to have extra boundaries up if going out with friends and learning new hobbies. They are in a very vulnerable position and any spouse having both unmet needs and independent behavior from their spouse is a recipe for disaster.


I did some of this before I left... started working on me, dressing better, going to the gym, etc. Not going out with people or doing anything questionable, just thinking about myself more. He would sometimes mention that I looked nice or he was proud of me for working out. But when I left, he used all of those things as his reasons for saying that I must be with another guy or have one waiting.

I don't think the 180 woke him up at all, he just assumed I was doing it all for his benefit. Or another man's benefit.  I think the 180 might only work if they already suspect something's up.


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## Florida_rosbif

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Another thought, I wonder if a 180-like change would wake some of these guys up, or at least prep her for the leaving stage?
> Focus on you, get a hair cut, some new clothes, go out, have fun, stop caring and just live your own life.
> 
> But I would caution all WAW to have extra boundaries up if going out with friends and learning new hobbies. They are in a very vulnerable position and any spouse having both unmet needs and independent behavior from their spouse is a recipe for disaster.


Essentially, isn't that what WAW tend to do when at he end if their tether? You're suggesting that they consciously do this before the end of the tether is reached.

Your comment on boundaries is very pertinent, once they reach this stage then it's kind of done isn't it?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

john117 said:


> It may work assuming the other side is unaware of his behavior and its impact. If he's doing it knowingly, I would not bother.
> 
> It's the male version of evil vs stoopid. There's some really good women here that will soon walk / have walked because their partners were too busy or this or that. As much as I want to believe the reason is always stoopid, I gotta wonderful about the type of guy person that will knowingly blow up a marriage.
> 
> Could it be they simply want out but are too busy to initiate the process?


My H is a combination of a lot of things. 

Bad upbringing- he never saw a healthy relationship

Lazy-that doesn't need much explanation 

Overthinker- he overthinks himself right out of actually doing sometimes. Inside his head are all kinds of ideas and things he can do for me, then he overthinks everything, thinks it will be corny or stupid or I won't like it.

Perfectionist- Which sounds ridiculous for a lazy, seemingly uncaring man but it is something I have learned about him. When he does something, he'll ask a million times if it's ok. Cooking, I pretty much have to stand there tasting everything to tell him it's good. Then he'll stand and watch me eat it asking how is it? Good? Too spicy? Not enough spice? I can put more in- before I even swallow my first bite.
If he can't do something perfectly, he doesn't want to do it at all. He was the kid arranging his hot wheels with an exact amount of space between them and his carpet vacuum lines all the same direction. Some little areas he has almost OCD-like habits and others can be chaos around him and he doesn't care. 

He is more afraid of doing something badly or wrong than he is of getting complained at for not doing it at all. Which goes back to the bad childhood portion as well as his very big need of words of affirmation.

He has control issues, issues with being told what to do and he'll rebel there if he feels he's losing his assumed role of boss and IMO a bit of an issue with being told what to do by a woman, which he'd never say outloud, but it has caused him issues at work before too.

He was mostly raised in and out of foster cares and group homes, with a prison like mentality. Fight, be strong, don't show weakness and don't do anything for anyone. He was raised thinking that if you give and inch, they will take a mile and being nice, giving were things people took advantage of. He turned himself into the one taking, the one beating, the one in charge to avoid being the one being beat, taken from and forced to follow. He was little so he'd compensate by being tough. 

These things are all ingrained in him. Honestly I'm surprised we've come as far as we have in 9 years. 

He's not a bad guy, he's got some damage that makes things difficult and those issues don't excuse the fact that he just doesn't freaken listen to me a lot of times and IMO if he cared a little more he would be doing more regardless but it's not evil or stupid.

Oh and he finally took out his glass from the bedroom today.


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## EleGirl

Florida_rosbif said:


> Essentially, isn't that what WAW tend to do when at he end if their tether? You're suggesting that they consciously do this before the end of the tether is reached.
> 
> Your comment on boundaries is very pertinent, once they reach this stage then it's kind of done isn't it?


No necessarily.

There is not just one 180. The 180 is really a concept of a person behaving in a manner that is 180 degrees from what their partner would expect of them. There are a few purposes: one to start focusing more on one's self; and to get their spouse's attention. The attention is needed to that finally the spouse will pay attention, realize that they might indeed lose their spouse and to get the spouse to start working towards fixing the marriage.

The 180 should be done by a potential WAW before she's completely done (or WAH). It's the last effort and hopefully it works.

Now if a WAW/H is not doing a 180, but is instead actually pulling away, that's when their spouse, if they care about he marriage needs to start doing Plan A, read His Needs, Her Needs and Love Busters. The marriage can still be saved. There is a potential to save it all the way up to the time when the final divorce decree is signed. 

And then there is always re-marriage. I've seen this happen.

.


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## john117

Then J2 must have trained me well. I am quite tidy, very handy with landscaping, drywall, paint, and carpentry. I do the laundry and wash dishes, pick up after everyone...

I'm an ideas person. Not one to be bothered with details. J2 is the opposite. I'm good at planning. She's great at following. I'm great in QDA (qualitative data analysis). She's great in regular math based analytics (the two sort of complement each other).

At the end of the day that is what's killing me. That we could have been a hell of a couple but pretty much she turned zombie with little chance of turnaround. And the more time passes the zombier she gets. 

Sigh. Bourbon is called for


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## OpenWindows

john117 said:


> It may work assuming the other side is unaware of his behavior and its impact. If he's doing it knowingly, I would not bother.
> 
> It's the male version of evil vs stoopid. There's some really good women here that will soon walk / have walked because their partners were too busy or this or that. As much as I want to believe the reason is always stoopid, I gotta wonderful about the type of guy person that will knowingly blow up a marriage.


I've wondered about this too. Mine was never malicious, he wasn't trying to be mean or hurt me. He was just thoughtless, to an extent that I still can't comprehend very well. He didn't really think about what I wanted and then dismiss it... it just never crossed his mind that I might want anything at all. If I got in his face about it, he would tell me what I wanted to hear so he could end the argument, and to him that was the end of the dispute.

It was almost like he didn't think of me as a separate person with my own needs and motivation, it was more like you'd think of a pet. You like having it around, but you don't think about how it feels or what it wants from its life... it's there for your purposes.


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## turnera

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Yep. I don't care what gender you are, if someone is saying "You need to help around the house more. I need you to do the floors and livingroom this weekend" they hear you, they just don't do it. There's no mix up in communication because of emotions or logic or whatever, they just don't care to listen.


In my H's case, it was a determination to not let a woman tell him what to do. His mom expected him to do SO much, never asked him. When she decided to leave his dad, she just showed up at H's house (which he bought at age 19 by working three jobs), his two younger siblings in tow, and just moved them all right in. Once there, it just became his job to drive her to work every day, buy what she needed, take care of his siblings, and basically do whatever she wanted. 

So by the time she moved out, he had developed a full-fledged hatred for women telling him what to do. HER, he couldn't say no to. Me? Not so much worried about it. 

And then there was the issue of his alcoholic dad ruining their lives. Oh, and his schizophrenic mother creating so many problems that they had to keep moving. Oh, and H being 4' 11" when he graduated high school, so all the short guy stuff to deal with, too.

Unfortunately, I didn't figure out what was going on for another 10 years or so. Years in which I blamed myself for not being able how to get him to 'care.' He loves me to pieces. He just can't 'let' himself do what I ask for because then he'd be ... IDK, eating crow?

So even if people do care, or want to please you, sometimes dysfunction prevents it.



> He has control issues, issues with being told what to do and he'll rebel there if he feels he's losing his assumed role of boss and IMO a bit of an issue with being told what to do by a woman, which he'd never say out loud, but it has caused him issues at work before too.


Exactly what I dealt with. I decided long ago my H has 'Right Man Syndrome'; he simply HAS to be right. HAS to be the hero. HAS to be the one everyone admires. When anyone even HINTS that they're not ok with something he did, I just groan, because I know I'm going to be hit with at least 4 or 5 hours of him obsessing over what happened, how it went wrong, how it has to be someone else's fault...he'll go over and over and over it until he can come to a place where he can go to bed knowing he did nothing wrong. Quite interesting to watch, unless you're the one having to be the one he bounces off of.

Just today, H's band is having a meeting to discuss what went wrong at their last performance, and I'm hearing hints that they're all blaming him (he does the sound). So DD25 and I discussed earlier today how I can get out of being available when he comes home, because if they do end up blaming him, it's ME he'll come home to to go through this hours-long process. She told me I should tell him I have work to do and I have to get it done tonight, so how about we talk about it tomorrow (when he's hopefully died down about it).


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## MattMatt

3Xnocharm said:


> I say let her walk. Matt you seem like a good man who is a good husband. You deserve a better partner than a volatile, ASD cheater.


I am probably an average to good husband.

My wife cheated on me a number of years ago.

The only problem is her ASD. And that's an illness (well, sort of) and not something that is entirely within her control.

Besides which I love her. 

And I made a promise to look after her for the rest of my life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes

MattMatt said:


> I am probably an average to good husband.
> 
> My wife cheated on me a number of years ago.
> 
> The only problem is her ASD. And that's an illness (well, sort of) and not something that is entirely within her control.
> 
> Besides which I love her.
> 
> And I made a promise to look after her for the rest of my life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Respectfully, she also made a promise and she broke that when she cheated. Staying because you love her is wonderful and worthy. Staying out of a sense of duty/promise is not. She released you from that responsibility the second she was unfaithful.


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## john117

There's a gray area in the case of mental illness. My wife is diagnosed but untreated BPD and in a more romantic, unicorny marriage I would sacrifice myself to help her. In practice, it doesn't quite work the way Matt described. 

I can look after her but she has to want it too. If she thinks she's normal that's a stalemate.


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## Adelais

I guess the question is, do all Aspies cheat or otherwise not understand faithfulness? They might not be fully to blame for some of their indiscretions. I have a friend who has an Aspie daughter in her early 20's who was raped, even though it was consensual. The girl didn't know what was actually happening at the time, and didn't say no, but was terrified because of the pain. She didn't know she was being seduced, and afterwards told her mother about it because she was so traumatized by it.


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## SurpriseMyself

OpenWindows said:


> I've wondered about this too. Mine was never malicious, he wasn't trying to be mean or hurt me. He was just thoughtless, to an extent that I still can't comprehend very well. He didn't really think about what I wanted and then dismiss it... it just never crossed his mind that I might want anything at all. If I got in his face about it, he would tell me what I wanted to hear so he could end the argument, and to him that was the end of the dispute.
> 
> It was almost like he didn't think of me as a separate person with my own needs and motivation, it was more like you'd think of a pet. You like having it around, but you don't think about how it feels or what it wants from its life... it's there for your purposes.


A few months before I left, I told him I won't spend my life hanging around just to keep him company. His mom has done that for his dad for 50 years, but I want more than being a presence in someone else's world just for their benefit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Raya

This OP verbalizes exactly what's going on for me right now, thank you so much for laying it all out! My husband is a very conflict avoidant, clueless partner. If you asked him right now if he thought everything in our relationship was copacetic he would probably say "yeah". We had a pretty rock solid relationship until we had our son a little over a year ago, everything seems to be imploding these last few months though. Seems we've both changed in ways that are making us less compatible with each other. He listens but doesn't hear, when I say there are issues he kind of said whatever will end the conversation as quickly as possible because he doesn't like these conversations, usually it's "do what you need to do" or something. He's fearful, I'm adventurous; he makes empty promises/goals/plans, I am a woman of my word. He's generally more absorbed with his phone than our son; he's affectionate but I feel so unheard and disconnected that I'm not interested in his affection. It's gotten to the point where I can barely recognize my love for him anymore. He ACTIVELY and admittedly tries to annoy me, the only thing he achieves by doing this is pushing me away). I feel like his mother because I pick up after him as much as I pick up after our one year old. When we're intimate it's really disconnected and quite awkward, at least for me. I'm really not entirely sure how much longer I can keep this up. It's not like he's abusive or anything, just seems like compatibility has taken a serious nose dive.


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## EleGirl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Respectfully, she also made a promise and she broke that when she cheated. Staying because you love her is wonderful and worthy. Staying out of a sense of duty/promise is not. She released you from that responsibility the second she was unfaithful.


Yes, she broke the promise when she cheated. But that was years ago and they have re-committed to each other. 

I do agree that staying solely because of duty/promise is not all that worthy in that a person should not sacrifice themselves for that. If they feel it's not a sacrifice, then it's a viable choice.


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## EleGirl

Raya,

I'm sorry you are going through this. Many of us here have been through similar situations as you can tell from this thread. 

If you would like to, why not start a thread of your own so that we can all give you direct support. I'm not trying to chase you off this thread as your post is very valid here. But your own thread in addition might be a good idea.


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## Cosmos

Raya said:


> This OP verbalizes exactly what's going on for me right now, thank you so much for laying it all out! My husband is a very conflict avoidant, clueless partner. If you asked him right now if he thought everything in our relationship was copacetic he would probably say "yeah". We had a pretty rock solid relationship until we had our son a little over a year ago, everything seems to be imploding these last few months though. Seems we've both changed in ways that are making us less compatible with each other. He listens but doesn't hear, when I say there are issues he kind of said whatever will end the conversation as quickly as possible because he doesn't like these conversations, usually it's "do what you need to do" or something. He's fearful, I'm adventurous; he makes empty promises/goals/plans, I am a woman of my word. He's generally more absorbed with his phone than our son; he's affectionate but I feel so unheard and disconnected that I'm not interested in his affection. It's gotten to the point where I can barely recognize my love for him anymore. He ACTIVELY and admittedly tries to annoy me, the only thing he achieves by doing this is pushing me away). I feel like his mother because I pick up after him as much as I pick up after our one year old. When we're intimate it's really disconnected and quite awkward, at least for me. I'm really not entirely sure how much longer I can keep this up. It's not like he's abusive or anything, just seems like compatibility has taken a serious nose dive.


Time to nip this in the bud, Raya. You're young and have small child to worry about... How about marriage counselling?


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## EleGirl

Raya said:


> This OP verbalizes exactly what's going on for me right now, thank you so much for laying it all out! My husband is a very conflict avoidant, clueless partner. If you asked him right now if he thought everything in our relationship was copacetic he would probably say "yeah". We had a pretty rock solid relationship until we had our son a little over a year ago, everything seems to be imploding these last few months though. Seems we've both changed in ways that are making us less compatible with each other. He listens but doesn't hear, when I say there are issues he kind of said whatever will end the conversation as quickly as possible because he doesn't like these conversations, usually it's "do what you need to do" or something. He's fearful, I'm adventurous; he makes empty promises/goals/plans, I am a woman of my word. He's generally more absorbed with his phone than our son; he's affectionate but I feel so unheard and disconnected that I'm not interested in his affection. It's gotten to the point where I can barely recognize my love for him anymore. He ACTIVELY and admittedly tries to annoy me, the only thing he achieves by doing this is pushing me away). I feel like his mother because I pick up after him as much as I pick up after our one year old. When we're intimate it's really disconnected and quite awkward, at least for me. I'm really not entirely sure how much longer I can keep this up. It's not like he's abusive or anything, just seems like compatibility has taken a serious nose dive.


Has he always been this obsessed with his phone? Seems a bit odd. Have you checked his phone bill see if there is any one number he's talking to and texting a lot?

I'm reposting this link just in case you did not see it... the author has a very good book "Divorce Busting" that help you.

Get Relationship Advice and Solve Marriage Problems with Michele Weiner-Davis - Divorce Busting®

Two other books that I think are must reads for you are “His Needs, Her Needs” and “Love Busters” by Dr. Harley.

This is a very crucial time in your marriage. Believe it or not, it’s completely possible to rebuild your marriage and the love/connection the two of you sued to have. But you would need to act very decisively.

The books I suggested have a lot of good info.

After you read them and get some clarity, I suggest that you write out what you want to tell your husband that the issues are and what you want from the marriage and from him. You have to let him know that in order for you to continue in the marriage, these things have to happen.

If you start your own thread, we can all go into more detail with you on this process.


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## MattMatt

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Respectfully, she also made a promise and she broke that when she cheated. Staying because you love her is wonderful and worthy. Staying out of a sense of duty/promise is not. She released you from that responsibility the second she was unfaithful.


She told me before she cheated and I had a revenge affair. And the promise I made was not a promise I made to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Raya said:


> This OP verbalizes exactly what's going on for me right now, thank you so much for laying it all out! My husband is a very conflict avoidant, clueless partner. If you asked him right now if he thought everything in our relationship was copacetic he would probably say "yeah". We had a pretty rock solid relationship until we had our son a little over a year ago, everything seems to be imploding these last few months though. Seems we've both changed in ways that are making us less compatible with each other. He listens but doesn't hear, when I say there are issues he kind of said whatever will end the conversation as quickly as possible because he doesn't like these conversations, usually it's "do what you need to do" or something. He's fearful, I'm adventurous; he makes empty promises/goals/plans, I am a woman of my word. He's generally more absorbed with his phone than our son; he's affectionate but I feel so unheard and disconnected that I'm not interested in his affection. It's gotten to the point where I can barely recognize my love for him anymore. He ACTIVELY and admittedly tries to annoy me, the only thing he achieves by doing this is pushing me away). I feel like his mother because I pick up after him as much as I pick up after our one year old. When we're intimate it's really disconnected and quite awkward, at least for me. I'm really not entirely sure how much longer I can keep this up. It's not like he's abusive or anything, just seems like compatibility has taken a serious nose dive.


Raya, you are at the beginning of this issue. You can change it. Yes, you. Not him. It took me 35 years to realize that I had the power all along; I just had to get educated on how to deal with what makes me unhappy in a healthy, productive way. I urge you to find a therapist and start going. Not because there's something wrong with you, but because she will be trained in STEPS, in RESULTS, in REACTIONS that will effect good changes in your marriage. And she'll teach YOU how to do these things.


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## NobodySpecial

I hope Raya posts her own thread so we can support her independently. On the topic of WAW, I have been troubled by much of this thread. On the one hand, I agree with a lot that has been said. We talk, and our husband's don't listen. We take on the burden of the practical, some of us. If it needs to get done, we know it. We can ask for help doing it, but why should it be our responsibility? And how frustrating does it get when we ask and get no reply?

But. I know at my walk awayishest feelings, I had forgotten to understand HIM and what had me marry him in the first place. I did not marry him for his housekeeping skill, though I did have to set effective limits for him to understand I was not his maid. I married him for his joy. As much as I did not want to have sex with him, he did not want to share his joy with me. I was a nagging pain in his ass. I was constantly speaking at him. But I was not speaking language TO him that he understood. It was not just HIM that did not get it. Did I like it when he said do what you need to do or get over it? Not a lot. But when I reflected, it was fair. I don't get to dictate how he does things. I can only set limits for myself. He did not marry me to be his mother either. 

When I shut the hell up and ACTED on my principles, he GOT IT. He could see what I was doing when I stopped doing it. When I stopped bugging him about his free time not being spent with me and gave him his free time, he stopped feeling guilty and annoyed at why he has to stop doing the things he always had done just because he got married. He did his thing. Then WANTED to do things with me. I re-became the strong wonderful woman he had married.

I am having to relearn this lesson 20 years later in a rough patch we are having. Again I have forgotten HIM.


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## kag123

NobodySpecial said:


> I hope Raya posts her own thread so we can support her independently. On the topic of WAW, I have been troubled by much of this thread. On the one hand, I agree with a lot that has been said. We talk, and our husband's don't listen. We take on the burden of the practical, some of us. If it needs to get done, we know it. We can ask for help doing it, but why should it be our responsibility? And how frustrating does it get when we ask and get no reply?
> 
> But. I know at my walk awayishest feelings, I had forgotten to understand HIM and what had me marry him in the first place. I did not marry him for his housekeeping skill, though I did have to set effective limits for him to understand I was not his maid. I married him for his joy. As much as I did not want to have sex with him, he did not want to share his joy with me. I was a nagging pain in his ass. I was constantly speaking at him. But I was not speaking language TO him that he understood. It was not just HIM that did not get it. Did I like it when he said do what you need to do or get over it? Not a lot. But when I reflected, it was fair. I don't get to dictate how he does things. I can only set limits for myself. He did not marry me to be his mother either.
> 
> When I shut the hell up and ACTED on my principles, he GOT IT. He could see what I was doing when I stopped doing it. When I stopped bugging him about his free time not being spent with me and gave him his free time, he stopped feeling guilty and annoyed at why he has to stop doing the things he always had done just because he got married. He did his thing. Then WANTED to do things with me. I re-became the strong wonderful woman he had married.
> 
> I am having to relearn this lesson 20 years later in a rough patch we are having. Again I have forgotten HIM.


That is a really good point. 

Women tend to be verbal and give and receive verbal feedback. I think men are not tuned this way and the more words you use, the less clear that your message becomes. 

I am never really sure how I can tip the scale from pleasant request to "nag". I know I've been on both sides with my H and have failed to see the dividing line in my own behavior to determine when I'm getting into "nag" territory. 

But I definitely find that less is more. A single request, with an appropriate (unspoken, lest it become an ultimatum or demand) time frame for him to address said request. If it does not happen I will continue on and let my actions show the consequence. Not with the intention to punish but with the intention to get the task finished. No nastiness or poor attitude about it. 

Too many times of this happening I will stop and throw a flag and say to him - hey I think we have a pretty sh!tty dynamic going, what can we do to fix it? 

For us it never gets past that point. 

I will say that one of the things that I personally have trouble with is letting my pride get in the way. Your example of spending time together hit me. I am too proud to beg my husband to spend time with me if he would rather be with someone else. My knee jerk reaction is "Well eff you then." and to close myself off from him. That doesn't solve the problem but I can find it very difficult to bring myself to entice him to be with me via changing into the "fun girlfriend" again when I am angry. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial

Or then again, maybe he is just having an affair. Sigh. Why do I try?


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## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> .... On the topic of WAW, I have been troubled by much of this thread. On the one hand, I agree with a lot that has been said. We talk, and our husband's don't listen. We take on the burden of the practical, some of us. If it needs to get done, we know it. We can ask for help doing it, but why should it be our responsibility? And how frustrating does it get when we ask and get no reply?
> 
> But. I know at my walk awayishest feelings, I had forgotten to understand HIM and what had me marry him in the first place. I did not marry him for his housekeeping skill, though I did have to set effective limits for him to understand I was not his maid. I married him for his joy. As much as I did not want to have sex with him, he did not want to share his joy with me. I was a nagging pain in his ass. I was constantly speaking at him. But I was not speaking language TO him that he understood. It was not just HIM that did not get it. Did I like it when he said do what you need to do or get over it? Not a lot. But when I reflected, it was fair. I don't get to dictate how he does things. I can only set limits for myself. He did not marry me to be his mother either.
> 
> When I shut the hell up and ACTED on my principles, he GOT IT. He could see what I was doing when I stopped doing it. When I stopped bugging him about his free time not being spent with me and gave him his free time, he stopped feeling guilty and annoyed at why he has to stop doing the things he always had done just because he got married. He did his thing. Then WANTED to do things with me. I re-became the strong wonderful woman he had married.
> 
> I am having to relearn this lesson 20 years later in a rough patch we are having. Again I have forgotten HIM.


I don't buy it. This is the equivalent of a husband who's wife won't have sex with him and people tell him that it's HIS problem. That HE has to romance her, rock her world, make himself more desirable. Sure, he needs to hold up his side of the relationship, but it's got to be BOTH of them working on the problem.

The problem is givers and takers. The "taker" husbands apparently don't do housework or listen to their wives. The "taker" wives apparently don't have sex with their husbands.

Unfortunately, givers and takers are attracted to each other. Givers need takers to do things for. Takers need someone to do stuff for them. Two takers might work in a very dysfunctional way. Two givers would be bored to death as they each try to have the other go through the door first.

When there are problems, the Givers come to TAM to try and fix them. The Takers don't think there's a problem, so they aren't here.

I'm the Giver, my wife is the Taker. It works because I finally learned not to give too much. Also, if you want to be appreciated, you need to make sure that you're giving something that the taker actually wants (no points for giving them stuff they don't want!). My taker wife has enough conscious control of her behavior to realize that if she ignores my needs (the few that I have), the giver might go away and stop giving her stuff. Also, she's mart enough to be fully aware of how good she's got it.

In short, it's all up to the Giver (because we're the one who cares). 

1) Restrict your giving to healthy levels that don't breed resentment. 

2) Make sure the taker is aware at all times that you are under no obligation to keep giving to them forever regardless of their behavior.


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## samyeagar

My ex wife, from all points of view looked like a textbook WAW. The thing is though, I had checked out of the marriage well before she did because of how she treated me. She was what made it inevitable that she would become a WAW. She gave me nothing to care about.


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## SurpriseMyself

samyeagar said:


> My ex wife, from all points of view looked like a textbook WAW. The thing is though, I had checked out of the marriage well before she did because of how she treated me. She was what made it inevitable that she would become a WAW. She gave me nothing to care about.


You checked out but stayed? That's my H. He would also say he checked out because of how I treated him, although the woman I became with him was due to years and years of frustration, not dealing with issues, not communicating, etc. As I've said before, he thinks that you should just not bring up any issues with the marriage and act happy. It was crazy to live every day with the elephant in the room and not be able to talk about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr

samyeagar said:


> My ex wife, from all points of view looked like a textbook WAW. The thing is though, I had checked out of the marriage well before she did because of how she treated me. She was what made it inevitable that she would become a WAW. She gave me nothing to care about.


This is how I would define my ex as well. It was a few years after we divorced before I figured that out though. Her exit affair gave me the high road to blame it all on her for a while.


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## samyeagar

SurpriseMyself said:


> *You checked out but stayed?* That's my H. He would also say he checked out because of how I treated him, although the woman I became with him was due to years and years of frustration, not dealing with issues, not communicating, etc. As I've said before, he thinks that you should just not bring up any issues with the marriage and act happy. It was crazy to live every day with the elephant in the room and not be able to talk about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I did. Granted, there is likely a difference here between your situation and mine...my ex wife is diagnosed NPD, so not completely comparable.

I think my point is though, all too often, WAW situations end up morphing into the wife who did everything right, gave everything to the relationship, sacrificed all to the husband who took her for granted, left her needs unmet, never listened. Very black and white, when it likely didn't start out that way. Rarely do we see any serious introspection into what the wife may have done or not done to foster her husbands behavior to her.


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## EleGirl

samyeagar said:


> I did. Granted, there is likely a difference here between your situation and mine...my ex wife is diagnosed NPD, so not completely comparable.
> 
> I think my point is though, all too often, WAW situations end up morphing into the wife who did everything right, gave everything to the relationship, sacrificed all to the husband who took her for granted, left her needs unmet, never listened. Very black and white, when it likely didn't start out that way. Rarely do we see any serious introspection into what the wife may have done or not done to foster her husbands behavior to her.


It is true that we often only see that one side of things. We also get that one sided view when men come here and talk about their marriages. 

Often times both parties are feeding into the other's attitude going down hill. IT becomes a bad dance, but no one will turn off the music long enough to change to a different dance.

That's why, often one person can unilaterally change a marriage. If one changes, the other has to. A person cannot control how the other changes in response, but they will change. And hopefully it's a change that makes things better.

But most people are too hurt, too unable to see the other's point of view to let down their pride and make that unilateral change.


----------



## OpenWindows

samyeagar said:


> I did. Granted, there is likely a difference here between your situation and mine...my ex wife is diagnosed NPD, so not completely comparable.
> 
> I think my point is though, all too often, WAW situations end up morphing into the wife who did everything right, gave everything to the relationship, sacrificed all to the husband who took her for granted, left her needs unmet, never listened. Very black and white, when it likely didn't start out that way. Rarely do we see any serious introspection into what the wife may have done or not done to foster her husbands behavior to her.


This is something I've thought about a lot. I know I didn't do everything right, and i have a few theories about how i contributed, but XH either can't or won't tell me what I might have done to trigger his behavior.

In a general sense, what kind of behaviors from a woman do you think might set the stage for a WAW situation?


----------



## SurpriseMyself

samyeagar said:


> I did. Granted, there is likely a difference here between your situation and mine...my ex wife is diagnosed NPD, so not completely comparable.
> 
> I think my point is though, all too often, WAW situations end up morphing into the wife who did everything right, gave everything to the relationship, sacrificed all to the husband who took her for granted, left her needs unmet, never listened. Very black and white, when it likely didn't start out that way. Rarely do we see any serious introspection into what the wife may have done or not done to foster her husbands behavior to her.


I totally acknowledge that I was ugly toward him the last few years. I went back and forth between trying to get him to talk and just getting resentful that he would defend, deflect, etc. His typical responses were: just tell me what you want me to say, what do you want me to say, it depends, I need time to think about it (and then never would), you do that too, or I don't know. It was such a merry-go-round and nothing ever got dealt with.

It makes me think of this developer at work. He doesn't pay attention when we are talking about the business requirements and offering technical solutions, never asks any questions or offer up ideas, then goes back to his desk and has to have another developer explain it all to him again as well as show him where to update the code and how. He won't be at the company much longer if he doesn't make some significant improvements. His output is probably half that of the others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

OpenWindows said:


> This is something I've thought about a lot. I know I didn't do everything right, and i have a few theories about how i contributed, but XH either can't or won't tell me what I might have done to trigger his behavior.
> 
> In a general sense, what kind of behaviors from a woman do you think might set the stage for a WAW situation?


Taking their husband for granted. Minimizing his contributions. Thinking she always knows best, or the right way to do things.

I can pinpoint the exact moment that I snapped...

It was Christmas time, and I was working overtime at my ex wife's request. I arrived late to a Christmas party we had been invited to because I was working. As I walked in, I heard my ex wife telling people how she always had to do everything, she might as well be a single mother because I had to work so much. When she saw me walk in, rather than saying hi or anything, she told me I needed to go pick up the oldest kids from orchestra. The looks she got went completely unnoticed by her. One of the other women there said she would go get them since I had been working all day, and to grab something to eat. I thanked her for offering, but went and got the kids myself. When we got home after the party, my ex wife let me know in no uncertain terms that I had somehow made her look bad, had disrespected her and embarrassed myself and neglected the kids by not leaving fast enough so that woman had to offer to do something I wasn't doing.


----------



## just got it 55

Buddy400 said:


> I don't buy it. This is the equivalent of a husband who's wife won't have sex with him and people tell him that it's HIS problem. That HE has to romance her, rock her world, make himself more desirable. Sure, he needs to hold up his side of the relationship, but it's got to be BOTH of them working on the problem.
> 
> The problem is givers and takers. The "taker" husbands apparently don't do housework or listen to their wives. The "taker" wives apparently don't have sex with their husbands.
> 
> Unfortunately, givers and takers are attracted to each other. Givers need takers to do things for. Takers need someone to do stuff for them. Two takers might work in a very dysfunctional way. Two givers would be bored to death as they each try to have the other go through the door first.
> 
> When there are problems, the Givers come to TAM to try and fix them. The Takers don't think there's a problem, so they aren't here.
> 
> I'm the Giver, my wife is the Taker. It works because I finally learned not to give too much. Also, if you want to be appreciated, you need to make sure that you're giving something that the taker actually wants (no points for giving them stuff they don't want!). My taker wife has enough conscious control of her behavior to realize that if she ignores my needs (the few that I have), the giver might go away and stop giving her stuff. Also, she's mart enough to be fully aware of how good she's got it.
> 
> In short, it's all up to the Giver (because we're the one who cares).
> 
> 1) Restrict your giving to healthy levels that don't breed resentment.
> 
> 2) Make sure the taker is aware at all times that you are under no obligation to keep giving to them forever regardless of their behavior.


Bud that's a really good post dead on.

55


----------



## just got it 55

EleGirl said:


> It is true that we often only see that one side of things. We also get that one sided view when men come here and talk about their marriages.
> 
> Often times both parties are feeding into the other's attitude going down hill. IT becomes a bad dance, but no one will turn off the music long enough to change to a different dance.
> 
> That's why, often one person can unilaterally change a marriage. If one changes, the other has to. A person cannot control how the other changes in response, but they will change. And hopefully it's a change that makes things better.
> 
> But most people are too hurt, too unable to see the other's point of view to let down their pride and make that unilateral change.


Someone has to rock the boat or someone needs the courage to ride that big white elephant in the room.

55


----------



## OpenWindows

samyeagar said:


> Taking their husband for granted. Minimizing his contributions. Thinking she always knows best, or the right way to do things.


Do you think the opposite could also cause it? Doing too much, over-praising, being too quick to offer help? I've often wondered if I just made it too easy for him to hand off responsibility and assume I could handle everything on my own.


----------



## luvinhim

TRy said:


> If he is hitting you and screaming at you, you should be totally "bashing" him. By my definition, a woman leaving an abusive spouse is not a walk away wife.


He no longer hit, but he will raise his voice out of frustration. I am not that little sweet young wife he married 20 years ago. I am a grown azz woman and you cannot bully me anymore


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> I don't buy it. This is the equivalent of a husband who's wife won't have sex with him and people tell him that it's HIS problem. That HE has to romance her, rock her world, make himself more desirable. Sure, he needs to hold up his side of the relationship, but it's got to be BOTH of them working on the problem.
> 
> The problem is givers and takers. The "taker" husbands apparently don't do housework or listen to their wives. The "taker" wives apparently don't have sex with their husbands.
> 
> Unfortunately, givers and takers are attracted to each other. Givers need takers to do things for. Takers need someone to do stuff for them. Two takers might work in a very dysfunctional way. Two givers would be bored to death as they each try to have the other go through the door first.
> 
> When there are problems, the Givers come to TAM to try and fix them. The Takers don't think there's a problem, so they aren't here.
> 
> I'm the Giver, my wife is the Taker. It works because I finally learned not to give too much. Also, if you want to be appreciated, you need to make sure that you're giving something that the taker actually wants (no points for giving them stuff they don't want!). My taker wife has enough conscious control of her behavior to realize that if she ignores my needs (the few that I have), the giver might go away and stop giving her stuff. Also, she's mart enough to be fully aware of how good she's got it.
> 
> In short, it's all up to the Giver (because we're the one who cares).
> 
> 1) Restrict your giving to healthy levels that don't breed resentment.
> 
> 2) Make sure the taker is aware at all times that you are under no obligation to keep giving to them forever regardless of their behavior.


I am memorizing this.


----------



## Wolf1974

OpenWindows said:


> Do you think the opposite could also cause it? Doing too much, over-praising, being too quick to offer help? I've often wondered if I just made it too easy for him to hand off responsibility and assume I could handle everything on my own.


I know in my case this was what happend. I way over gave in my realtionship and so my X checked out and then cheated. I honestly made life way to easy for her and by giving her everything and always putting her first she lost love and more so respect for me. It's a hard screw to recognize that sometimes by giving to much to the one you love you are hurting a relationship not making it stronger. I know I had no concept of this and it was the hardest part to get over.


----------



## turnera

I always tell people there's no place in a marriage for unconditional love.


----------



## MattMatt

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I guess the question is, do all Aspies cheat or otherwise not understand faithfulness? They might not be fully to blame for some of their indiscretions. I have a friend who has an Aspie daughter in her early 20's who was raped, even though it was consensual. The girl didn't know what was actually happening at the time, and didn't say no, but was terrified because of the pain. She didn't know she was being seduced, and afterwards told her mother about it because she was so traumatized by it.


Most Aspies do not cheat. My wife did, but she has developed coping strategies to deal with her life and some of them can make you go: Huh???


----------



## Cosmos

turnera said:


> I always tell people there's no place in a marriage for unconditional love.


The only person who has ever had my unconditional love is my son... My love for others is conditional upon how they treat me.


----------



## PieceOfSky

EleGirl said:


> It is true that we often only see that one side of things. We also get that one sided view when men come here and talk about their marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Often times both parties are feeding into the other's attitude going down hill. IT becomes a bad dance, but no one will turn off the music long enough to change to a different dance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's why, often one person can unilaterally change a marriage. If one changes, the other has to. A person cannot control how the other changes in response, but they will change. And hopefully it's a change that makes things better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But most people are too hurt, too unable to see the other's point of view to let down their pride and make that unilateral change.




That is all true and important. But keywords there are "often" and "hopefully". And even if one partner manages to change and that results in improved behavior from the partner and les marital strife, it still may be less than the partner who drove the change wants, needs, and deserves.



I like the giver/taker model; seems it might often apply. But another model comes to mind: That of an active engaged partner vs. a passive disengaged resister. Or: One who is trying to make a good faith effort to fix the mess -- however it got to that point -- vs. the other who seems invested in maintaining the status quo and seems to dig in his or her heels.



When someone won't reach out and hold your outreached hand, and you have been holding it out for years hoping he or she'd take hold and walk ahead together, it is time to put your hand in your pocket and walk on.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Why go all psychobabblish at all. Passive aggressive behavior, while it might seem trite and stereotypic fits the bill pretty well. My own estranged blushing bride is a horribly self involved martyr. Nothing is ever her responsibility or her problem, not even her own life. It's someone else's fault. She would endlessly prod 'do you want a divorce?' Because that's what she wants but would never in a million years take up the least activity to do that. Oh no, that's my problem. Why? Because the Queen Does Not Work. Also it gives her an excuse to feel even sorrier for herself so she can cry to the to 3 people who can stand her about what a 'brute' I am for leaving her. 

Inside every enabler is a paranoid fascist screaming to get out to tell you it's your fault for forcing them to tell you it's your fault.


----------



## just got it 55

PieceOfSky said:


> That is all true and important. But keywords there are "often" and "hopefully". And even if one partner manages to change and that results in improved behavior from the partner and les marital strife, it still may be less than the partner who drove the change wants, needs, and deserves.
> 
> 
> 
> I like the giver/taker model; seems it might often apply. But another model comes to mind: That of an active engaged partner vs. a passive disengaged resister. Or: One who is trying to make a good faith effort to fix the mess -- however it got to that point -- vs. the other who seems invested in maintaining the status quo and seems to dig in his or her heels.
> 
> 
> 
> When someone won't reach out and hold your outreached hand, and you have been holding it out for years hoping he or she'd take hold and walk ahead together, it is time to put your hand in your pocket and walk on.


Some people don't really change they come to realize who they actually are and it scares the $hit out of them.

55


----------



## Duguesclin

Cosmos said:


> The only person who has ever had my unconditional love is my son... My love for others is conditional upon how they treat me.


When your son is not going to treat you well, you will still love him.
Why does how you are treated by others impact the love you have for them?

Unconditional love is possible in a marriage but it should come from the man first. Only from his love a woman will start trusting him.


----------



## MattMatt

Runs like Dog said:


> Why go all psychobabblish at all. Passive aggressive behavior, while it might seem trite and stereotypic fits the bill pretty well. My own estranged blushing bride is a horribly self involved martyr. Nothing is ever her responsibility or her problem, not even her own life. It's someone else's fault. She would endlessly prod 'do you want a divorce?' Because that's what she wants but would never in a million years take up the least activity to do that. Oh no, that's my problem. Why? Because the Queen Does Not Work. Also it gives her an excuse to feel even sorrier for herself so she can cry to the to 3 people who can stand her about what a 'brute' I am for leaving her.
> 
> Inside every enabler is a paranoid fascist screaming to get out to tell you it's your fault for forcing them to tell you it's your fault.


I know her! Or at least I know someone just like that.

She sleeps around and wants a divorce. She keeps asking het husband if he wants a divorce and he always says no.

But she will not instigate the divorce she wants. Crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MattMatt said:


> I know her! Or at least I know someone just like that.
> 
> She sleeps around and wants a divorce. She keeps asking het husband if he wants a divorce and he always says no.
> 
> But she will not instigate the divorce she wants. Crazy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like she is desperate for love and leadership from her husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

My H decided that his new years resolution this year would be to show me more appreciation for what I do. This is an example of how he doesn't listen to me or get what I am trying to say.

If I tell him I am doing too much and I feel taken for granted, he thinks the best solution is to pump me up with more compliments and tell me what a great job I am doing. 

And that is the biggest problem because it's not like he's just being an @sshole, it's that he just doesn't get it. 

I'm extremely worried about what is going to happen once he's back on normal shift. Right now I can take on all the chores because his job makes it so he is not as able to. That's fine with me, but once we are working the same hours again it's not ok. The few days off around Christmas, and now New Years gave me a bit of a glimpse into the fact that he still doesn't get my need for him to do his job around the house when he is here.

It would be like if a husband expressed a need for more sex and she thought, wow he must need more gift giving and started bringing home presents. Ya, thanks. It's nice but NOT what I am asking for. 

And it's not like they are doing nothing, they are trying in their own way, just missing the mark.


----------



## Cosmos

Duguesclin said:


> When your son is not going to treat you well, you will still love him.
> *Why does how you are treated by others impact the love you have for them?*
> 
> Unconditional love is possible in a marriage but it should come from the man first. Only from his love a woman will start trusting him.


I guess I'm too damaged for that sort of love, Dug. I've never loved anyone (other than my child) deeply enough for it to be unconditional.


----------



## Duguesclin

Cosmos said:


> I guess I'm too damaged for that sort of love, Dug. I've never loved anyone (other than my child) deeply enough for it to be unconditional.


The problem is not with you Cosmos, but with your husband. He needed to give you that unconditional love. Then he would have gotten it back.


----------



## OpenWindows

It's important to remember that unconditional love is not the same as unconditional tolerance.

If I had a child that grew up to treat me and the rest of the family horribly, I would still love them. But I probably wouldn't involve them in my daily life.

Many WAW still feel love for their husbands. Even abused spouses sometimes still feel that love. They just recognize it's not healthy to be around that person any more.


----------



## jld

Cosmos said:


> I guess I'm too damaged for that sort of love, Dug. I've never loved anyone (other than my child) deeply enough for it to be unconditional.


This is so sad.  You are such a gracious lady, Cosmos, and have always deserved to be loved completely and wholeheartedly!!

I totally agree with Dug. Your husband needed to love you that way, not mistreat you like he did. That was so wrong of him. You and your son did not at all deserve how selfishly he treated you. It makes me angry how he treated both of you! 

You have been so strong, working all those jobs to provide for your son. You did such a good job raising him! You should be very proud! 

And now you have a man who loves you in your life. I hope he will always be good to you and treat you with the utmost love respect and care, just like you deserve. All happiness to you, dear lady!


----------



## PieceOfSky

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> My H decided that his new years resolution this year would be to show me more appreciation for what I do. This is an example of how he doesn't listen to me or get what I am trying to say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I tell him I am doing too much and I feel taken for granted, he thinks the best solution is to pump me up with more compliments and tell me what a great job I am doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And that is the biggest problem because it's not like he's just being an @sshole, it's that he just doesn't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm extremely worried about what is going to happen once he's back on normal shift. Right now I can take on all the chores because his job makes it so he is not as able to. That's fine with me, but once we are working the same hours again it's not ok. The few days off around Christmas, and now New Years gave me a bit of a glimpse into the fact that he still doesn't get my need for him to do his job around the house when he is here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would be like if a husband expressed a need for more sex and she thought, wow he must need more gift giving and started bringing home presents. Ya, thanks. It's nice but NOT what I am asking for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And it's not like they are doing nothing, they are trying in their own way, just missing the mark.




Have you told him exactly all that? It seems that all needs to be part of the conversation.



If indeed he is trying and want to get it right, then he would want to hear what you just wrote pretty much word for word.



Have you considered writing him a letter? Communication is hard, and when details and nuances matter, sometimes it is hard to get them across in a single off the cuff conversation.



Just a thought.


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> It's important to remember that unconditional love is not the same as unconditional tolerance.


Very good point.

We must be completely honest with our loved ones. That is how we can both learn. Not all thoughts and actions are helpful. We want to seek the wisest path.


----------



## just got it 55

I have a question for for those wives that chose to walk away and those considering it

If your H worked 60 hours a week

Talked about and listened to you concerns

Paid attention / compliments to you 

Gave all the attention to the children a father should

Did all of the maintenance on the home repairs outdoor landscaping
In short meet a significant amount of your needs

But did not do a lick of housework and was not neat but borderline sloppy

Would you still leave ?

55


----------



## OpenWindows

just got it 55 said:


> I have a question for for those wives that chose to walk away and those considering it
> 
> If your H worked 60 hours a week
> 
> Talked about and listened to you concerns
> 
> Paid attention / compliments to you
> 
> Gave all the attention to the children a father should
> 
> Did all of the maintenance on the home repairs outdoor landscaping
> In short meet a significant amount of your needs
> 
> But did not do a lick of housework and was not neat but borderline sloppy
> 
> Would you still leave ?
> 
> 55


In that case, I would have stayed.

I can live with doing all of the housework, if there were other contributions from him. I knew when I married him that he would always be sloppy, but I never imagined he would gradually dump responsibility for every other facet of our lives onto me.


----------



## Cosmos

just got it 55 said:


> I have a question for for those wives that chose to walk away and those considering it
> 
> If your H worked 60 hours a week
> 
> Talked about and listened to you concerns
> 
> Paid attention / compliments to you
> 
> Gave all the attention to the children a father should
> 
> Did all of the maintenance on the home repairs outdoor landscaping
> In short meet a significant amount of your needs
> 
> But did not do a lick of housework and was not neat but borderline sloppy
> 
> Would you still leave ?
> 
> 55


With those sort of hours, I wouldn't expect him to do any housework! Besides, he sounds like a really good H, so who would want to leave him?


----------



## jld

SGC, you have always seemed to me like the leader in your relationship. I do understand the value of keeping the family intact. And if you can do it, more power to you.

I just would not have the patience, or the selflessness, for it.


----------



## MattMatt

jld said:


> Sounds like she is desperate for love and leadership from her husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She says she is that way because she finds him boring.

And truth to tell his conversational topics are very limited.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

PieceOfSky said:


> Have you told him exactly all that? It seems that all needs to be part of the conversation.
> 
> 
> 
> If indeed he is trying and want to get it right, then he would want to hear what you just wrote pretty much word for word.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you considered writing him a letter? Communication is hard, and when details and nuances matter, sometimes it is hard to get them across in a single off the cuff conversation.
> 
> 
> 
> Just a thought.


I have tried a million different ways to get it across to him. He's not the letter sort of guy, I doubt he would even read one.
Last night I tried explaining again. He joked that maybe he should switch his resolution to "shut up and just do what he's told" but it never really sinks in. 


As for the 60 hours a week, as long as I was working less hours then yes, that would be fine. I don't mind doing everything if he is busier at work or unable to. What I don't like is the lack of respect it shows me when we both work the same amount and he doesn't see the problem with me doing more around the house too. It's entitlement, lack of care and love and concern for me. Just basically using me, treating me as less than equal (although he feels it's treating me like MORE....)

SGC, you have always seemed to me like the leader in your relationship. I do understand the value of keeping the family intact. And if you can do it, more power to you.

if he would let me be leader it would be better. I could take that roll and it wouldn't bother me or turn me off. 
He wants to keep the title and entitlement that goes with it but have me do all the work for it. He thinks he's in charge but did/does nothing to get there and earn it.


----------



## jld

MattMatt said:


> She says she is that way because she finds him boring.
> 
> And truth to tell his conversational topics are very limited.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Boring probably means he is not paying attention to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> SGC, you have always seemed to me like the leader in your relationship. I do understand the value of keeping the family intact. And if you can do it, more power to you.
> 
> if he would let me be leader it would be better. I could take that roll and it wouldn't bother me or turn me off.
> He wants to keep the title and entitlement that goes with it but have me do all the work for it. He thinks he's in charge but did/does nothing to get there and earn it.


You already *have* that role. Titles don't mean anything. The person holding the marriage together is the de facto leader.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

jld said:


> Boring probably means he is not paying attention to her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. Let's call a spade a spade. The poor chap is so dull that he makes Ditch water exciting.

I spoke with him on a subject of mutual interest. He even bored me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MattMatt said:


> No. Let's call a spade a spade. The poor chap is so dull that he makes Ditch water exciting.
> 
> I spoke with him on a subject of mural interest. He even bored me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I bet even a boring fellow could make himself valuable by paying lots of attention to his wife. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

jld said:


> I bet even a boring fellow could make himself valuable by paying lots of attention to his wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think what attracted her initially was a size issue. 

He had a very big package... of renumerations. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MattMatt said:


> I think what attracted her initially was a size issue.
> 
> He had a very big package... of renumerations.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Money does have its appeal. But like one poster's mother told her, "If you marry for money, you will earn every penny."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

jld said:


> You already *have* that role. Titles don't mean anything. The person holding the marriage together is the de facto leader.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's just a question of manipulation... 

Watch "Goodbye Lenin" to see how it's done.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> It's just a question of manipulation...
> 
> Watch "Goodbye Lenin" to see how it's done.


Can you give me the jist of it, please?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Runs like Dog

But it's never a straightforward transaction especially not with a difficult person. "he/she does such and such and in return would you so forth and so on?" No, not really. Miserable people are miserable. They're not miserable because of you, they're miserable because of them.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> As I've said, I would HAPPILY do all the housework, *if *he were caring about what matters to ME and taking care of the things that either I'm not capable of doing or he won't let me pay someone else to do. My IC actually gave me the number of a handyman so I could change this dynamic by no longer depending on him, but even if I save up the money to get things fixed, I'm still mentally afraid of the fight I'll have to endure once I make that phone call. H knows how to do everything and so in his mind we should NEVER pay anyone else to do any of it. But I can't do it myself and he will never get around to it. *So I'm held hostage unless and until I get over my fear* of confrontation.


Taking me a long time to get through this thread. . . 

I wanted to bring this up because I think it could be empowering for you, turnera. You are not being held hostage by your husband, and he is not controlling you. He never has.

*You* were and are the one who has held yourself hostage. You will be free as soon as you wish. 3x's suggestion of filing bankruptcy could be very helpful here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

jld said:


> SGC, you have always seemed to me like the leader in your relationship. I do understand the value of keeping the family intact. And if you can do it, more power to you.
> 
> I just would not have the patience, or the selflessness, for it.


JLD I lead in the areas of my skill set areas where I am strongest

and I defer the weak areas to my wife

What are your thoughts on that?

55


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Can you give me the jist of it, please?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/goodbye-lenin-2004

It is on Netflix and it is a pretty good tutorial on manipulation.


----------



## OpenWindows

just got it 55 said:


> JLD I lead in the areas of my skill set areas where I am strongest
> 
> and I defer the weak areas to my wife
> 
> What are your thoughts on that?
> 
> 55


I know this question wasn't directed at me, but it caught my attention because my XH used to say the same thing. He believed we should each handle the things we were better at. He also believed I was better at nearly everything, except picking up heavy stuff and driving the car. 

What happens when someone believes the strengths are not divided equally?


----------



## jld

just got it 55 said:


> JLD I lead in the areas of my skill set areas where I am strongest
> 
> and I defer the weak areas to my wife
> 
> What are your thoughts on that?
> 
> 55


Makes sense. You want to pool the strengths so together you can do the best for your family.

In SGC's case, she went into a bar where her husband was meeting with his AP and convinced him to come home. That took guts. And then when they got home, she brought out the Marriage Builders materials and started them watching their videos. Without her doing that, I think the marriage would have just fallen apart. The husband would have kept on with the AP and eventually SGC and he would have divorced.

Even now, she continues to hold the ship together. She looks out for the family's best interests, not just her own. 

She does not need him financially; she works, too. She wants to keep the family intact for the kids, mainly, I think. Is that true, SGC?


----------



## john117

Skill sets and such is back to socks in my view. I'm better in most anything mundane than my wife - except cooking and housecleaning where few people can best her requirements  -

Division of tasks has never been the issue. In sacrificed a lot of advancement opportunities at work to take care of our girls but its something I do not even consider bad. 

The issue is not about socks but about communication. If a husband is totally morose or immature and not helping then I would expect sparks to fly, but also a lot of looks in the mirror for not doing my own due diligence.

To that extent, a WAW, because of those reasons is a failure attributable to both sides regardless of how much one side wants to blame the other side only.


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> I know this question wasn't directed at me, but it caught my attention because my XH used to say the same thing. He believed we should each handle the things we were better at. He also believed I was better at nearly everything, except picking up heavy stuff and driving the car.
> 
> What happens when someone believes the strengths are not divided equally?


If you are okay with the situation, you stick with it. If not, you leave.

Some women are fine taking care of a man. Whatever the man brings is good enough for them.

Other women want to be taken care of. The men they marry enjoy taking care of a woman. They are both happy that way.

I think the mistake some gals in this thread made was taking care of a man when they did not really want to, when they felt ripped off doing it. That was the time to walk out the door. 

But that is pretty hard to do if you have kids and need his money.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

MachoMcCoy said:


> I'm not going to read past this. There are currently 6 pages.
> 
> Please don't let them be 6 pages of finger pointing.
> 
> Please.
> 
> I'll come back when I have my composure, a little sleep and a little more time.


This is awkward. I saw that this thread immediately started growing. Threads only grow this fast if we have a cheating wife on the run or there's a fight. So I figured it had already failed. No sense in me jumping in now. 

Had I read past that first paragraph, I would have seen that the actual PURPOSE of the thread was to start a fight. 

OP. You nailed it. You nailed it perfectly. Then it turned into a fight. The biggest problem facing marriages today and we all just want to "win" our argument.

I'm still not reading any further. I know the answer. there are two parties at "fault", and not necessarily in this order:

1 - The husband who pushed her away, knew he was doing it, and continued to do it anyhow.

2 - WHOEVER'S fault it is that continues to allow society to raise yet ANOTHER generation of men who will continue to push away the most important person in theor world and NOT KNOW THEY ARE DOING IT!!!!! 

Until it's too late, of course. Wife walks. We fight over who's fault it is. Rinse, repeat.

Over, and over, and over, and over...

OP. I lived your original post. My wife was you. I call it my "kick in the gut". That magical moment in my life when I realized that I lost my wife. The loss was complete. The loss was forever.

And I knew i was doing it all along. I knew it was my fault. I didn't stop. My life ended that day.

So there. You win ladies. Move along. There's nothing more to see here. We suck. Go high five each other and go back to all of those 50 page threads where you treat each one like it is a different scenario. It isn't. They're all the same. Neanderthal man doesn't get it so she walks. 

To bad we can't even agree on the cause. That means we'll NEVER get to finding a solution.


----------



## EleGirl

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> My H decided that his new years resolution this year would be to show me more appreciation for what I do. This is an example of how he doesn't listen to me or get what I am trying to say.
> 
> *If I tell him I am doing too much and I feel taken for granted, he thinks the best solution is to pump me up with more compliments and tell me what a great job I am doing. *
> 
> And that is the biggest problem because it's not like he's just being an @sshole, it's that he just doesn't get it.


I don't think that is direct enough for some guys. Have you told him something very direct like: "You are as responsible for household chores as I am. But somehow I'm doing all of them. You need to do 50% of the chores around here. What chores are you going to start doing?" Maybe even hand him a list of chores and tell him to chose.


----------



## just got it 55

OpenWindows said:


> I know this question wasn't directed at me, but it caught my attention because my XH used to say the same thing. He believed we should each handle the things we were better at. He also believed I was better at nearly everything, except picking up heavy stuff and driving the car.
> 
> What happens when someone believes the strengths are not divided equally?


OW This has worked well for us for 37 years I am sure I could do more

This is not the case in my marriage 

But what happens in the event the wife thinks the husband sucks at everything

I think that happens as well no ?

55


----------



## Duguesclin

turnera said:


> See, women aren't looking for perfection. Most of us love to take care of our man, and will spoil him silly. If we just get something in return.


I can understand why it feels so good for many women to spoil a man. But it is a bad idea. A man will just take it for granted, take advantage of it and never give anything in return.

The best gift my wife gave me was not to spoil me.


----------



## turnera

just got it 55 said:


> I have a question for for those wives that chose to walk away and those considering it
> 
> If your H worked 60 hours a week
> 
> Talked about and listened to you concerns
> 
> Paid attention / compliments to you
> 
> Gave all the attention to the children a father should
> 
> Did all of the maintenance on the home repairs outdoor landscaping
> In short meet a significant amount of your needs
> 
> But did not do a lick of housework and was not neat but borderline sloppy
> 
> Would you still leave ?
> 
> 55


Of course not. Because he'd be giving the one thing WAWs leave for: caring/consideration/understanding/keeping the wife equal to him.

Arggghhh.

This isn't about housework! I'm sure the men would like it to be that simple: I'll start doing chores cos the old nag wants me to. See? You have no reason to leave.


----------



## Divinely Favored

EleGirl said:


> manfromlamancha said:
> 
> 
> 
> And just for completeness, often the man wants his wife to just walk away as in his mind he has had enough of her "whining" and self entitlement (in his mind). That is when he is not prepared to fight for the marriage and a wife walking away is the best thing for him. I have seen plenty of these situations.
> 
> 
> 
> A wife whines for years that she would like for her and her husband to go on dates, to spend time together. He hears it as whining so he continues to spend all his free time with his friends.
> 
> I suppose it's self entitlement for a woman to want to spend time with her husband.
> 
> Interesting.
Click to expand...

My wife is my best friend...what time I'm not working or hunting with my 2 boys I'm with my wife. 

The problem ALOT of men have is the wife complains then the husband tries to fix the problem. Then the wife *****es because she did not want you to fix it, just hear me....

After soo many times of getting *****ed at for trying to fix the problem the men eventually quit. The women don't want it fixed, they don't want your idea how to fix it ...they just want you to listen.

Most men are doers more than listeners. After a while they do nothing and figure she is just *****ing again...thinking the whole time their tired of the *****ing if she is not going to do anything to fix it.

Then she starts feeling like he does not listen or not being heard. She is...he just sees she is *****ing but does not want to fix it so he does nothing........


----------



## OpenWindows

just got it 55 said:


> OW This has worked well for us for 37 years I am sure I could do more
> 
> This is not the case in my marriage
> 
> But what happens in the event the wife thinks the husband sucks at everything
> 
> I think that happens as well no ?
> 
> 55


Oh yes, that happens, and generally leads to an unhappy and hen pecked husband.

You should definitely cater to each other's strengths. I'm a good cook, and I enjoy it. My BF has an economics major and is an accountant. I handle food, he handles money. But there is still balance, and that balance is crucial.

I also think if you know your skills are lacking in something that is important in your daily life, you have a responsibility to improve them and at least become functional. If your spouse is physically incapacitated or very ill, and you can't keep things running on your own, you are doing yourself and your family a huge disservice.


----------



## ocotillo

just got it 55 said:


> But what happens in the event the wife thinks the husband sucks at everything


Assuming he doesn't actually suck at everything, are you describing the problem or a symptom of the problem? 

Surely I'm not the only man who's noticed that when my wife is emotionally secure, I walk on water and when she's not, I can't do anything right?


----------



## EleGirl

just got it 55 said:


> I have a question for for those wives that chose to walk away and those considering it
> 
> If your H worked 60 hours a week
> 
> Talked about and listened to you concerns
> 
> Paid attention / compliments to you
> 
> Gave all the attention to the children a father should
> 
> Did all of the maintenance on the home repairs outdoor landscaping
> In short meet a significant amount of your needs
> 
> But did not do a lick of housework and was not neat but borderline sloppy
> 
> Would you still leave ?
> 
> 55


You did not clarify if the wife is working in this situation. What if she is working 60 hours a week too?

If I were a SAHM, I’d be would stay. I would consider the housework part of my job. I would probably also do a lot of the outside yard work. My idea of how it should work in a marriage is that each spouse should work about the same number of hours. If he’s working 60 hours a week, then she should be putting in 60 hours a week in child care, household care and even yard work and repairs. Then the two of them split any extra that is needed after that 60 hours. And this should be pretty minimal… maybe doing dishes after dinner type thing.

If I worked full time, which is often 60 hours a week in my career field, it would depend on how much outside work there is. On my current property… that id about an equal to the amount of time house work and other chores take.

If, say we lived in a place that has a small yard and repairs and yard work was a couple of hours a month. I would be upset that he is not taking on about 50% of the household chores. There is no reason why a woman, who works outside the home as much as her husband does, should be stuck with all of the housework, chores, cooking, shopping, etc. A man who has the attitude that it’s all a woman’s job (when there is not a lot of other stuff like home repairs and yard work) is simply telling his wife through his actions that she’s the maid. She is subservient to him. He can sit around and watch TV, while she does done everything at home, the cooking, the shopping, etc. That is a strong, derogatory message.


----------



## Duguesclin

EleGirl said:


> You did not clarify if the wife is working in this situation. What if she is working 60 hours a week too?
> 
> If I were a SAHM, I’d be would stay. I would consider the housework part of my job. I would probably also do a lot of the outside yard work. My idea of how it should work in a marriage is that each spouse should work about the same number of hours. If he’s working 60 hours a week, then she should be putting in 60 hours a week in child care, household care and even yard work and repairs. Then the two of them split any extra that is needed after that 60 hours. And this should be pretty minimal… maybe doing dishes after dinner type thing.
> 
> If I worked full time, which is often 60 hours a week in my career field, it would depend on how much outside work there is. On my current property… that id about an equal to the amount of time house work and other chores take.
> 
> If, say we lived in a place that has a small yard and repairs and yard work was a couple of hours a month. I would be upset that he is not taking on about 50% of the household chores. There is no reason why a woman, who works outside the home as much as her husband does, should be stuck with all of the housework, chores, cooking, shopping, etc. A man who has the attitude that it’s all a woman’s job (when there is not a lot of other stuff like home repairs and yard work) is simply telling his wife through his actions that she’s the maid. She is subservient to him. He can sit around and watch TV, while she does done everything at home, the cooking, the shopping, etc. That is a strong, derogatory message.


I do not think it works that way. If you are trying to make it fair, you end up in endless discussions. Is mowing for 2 hours on a garden tractor equivalent to 2h of house cleaning? Probably not if you are the one hating house cleaning and stuck with it while your spouse is listening to music while mowing.

If I come home after a 60h work week and the dishes are not done, I have 2 solutions: do the dishes myself or live with a full sink. There is probably a good reason why they were not done. It was not important.

What is important is agreeing on the priorities and agreeing to compromise where compromise is needed.

I did not marry my wife because she would be a great housewife. I married her because she was smart, unconventional and interesting. I also knew she would be a great mother.


----------



## EleGirl

Duguesclin said:


> I do not think it works that way. If you are trying to make it fair, you end up in endless discussions. Is mowing for 2 hours on a garden tractor equivalent to 2h of house cleaning? Probably not if you are the one hating house cleaning and stuck with it while your spouse is listening to music while mowing.
> 
> If I come home after a 60h work week and the dishes are not done, I have 2 solutions: do the dishes myself or live with a full sink. There is probably a good reason why they were not done. It was not important.
> 
> What is important is agreeing on the priorities and agreeing to compromise where compromise is needed.
> 
> I did not marry my wife because she would be a great housewife. I married her because she was smart, unconventional and interesting. I also knew she would be a great mother.


I agree. My response was simplistic to make the point that burdening one spouse with many hours of chores while the other get to relax instead is profoundly unfair.

But of course in a good marriage, this is worked out with compromise, priorities and respect for each other.


----------



## turnera

Duguesclin said:


> I do not think it works that way. If you are trying to make it fair, you end up in endless discussions. Is mowing for 2 hours on a garden tractor equivalent to 2h of house cleaning? Probably not if you are the one hating house cleaning and stuck with it while your spouse is listening to music while mowing.


That is why when I advise people to do a chore chart, I tell them to set it up in hourly increments. For example, if dishwashing has to get done at least seven times a week, it gets listed on the chart seven times. If the mowing takes 2 hours, it gets listed as such, such as taking up two 'chore bits.' So if one person picks washing dishes every day, the other person is expected to pick up the lawn mowing plus five more 'chore bits.' And they go down the list, picking equal-value 'bits' until all bits are accounted for.



> If I come home after a 60h work week and the dishes are not done, I have 2 solutions: do the dishes myself or live with a full sink. There is probably a good reason why they were not done. It was not important.


It actually IS important if it is not done consistently. One time? Of course not. For three weeks? Something has to be done to address it. And for most WAWs, it's the consistently NOT doing what you said you would do that causes them to give up.


----------



## Duguesclin

ocotillo said:


> Assuming he doesn't actually suck at everything, are you describing the problem or a symptom of the problem?
> 
> Surely I'm not the only man who's noticed that *when my wife is emotionally secure, I walk on water* and when she's not, I can't do anything right?


And you have great sex.

The obvious thing to do is to keep her emotionally secure. I do not know why it is so hard to agree with this on TAM.


----------



## turnera

EleGirl said:


> I agree. My response was simplistic to make the point that burdening one spouse with many hours of chores while the other get to relax instead is profoundly unfair.
> 
> But of course in a good marriage, this is worked out with compromise, priorities and respect for each other.


Many have come here to talk about the wives who criticize, are on a pedestal, or never are satisfied.

Which, again, is NOT the point of this thread; it's to talk about people who fail to value their partner, fail to take them seriously, who take them for granted, who say 'yes dear' and then completely ignore what they promised to do.

And yes, sometimes it's the man who is subjected to this and (hopefully) eventually leaves because he's being taken for granted.


----------



## Duguesclin

turnera said:


> That is why when I advise people to do a chore chart, I tell them to set it up in hourly increments. For example, if dishwashing has to get done at least seven times a week, it gets listed on the chart seven times. If the mowing takes 2 hours, it gets listed as such, such as taking up two 'chore bits.' So if one person picks washing dishes every day, the other person is expected to pick up the lawn mowing plus five more 'chore bits.' And they go down the list, picking equal-value 'bits' until all bits are accounted for.


This sounds complicated. I bet one would argue that the chore bits are not created equal. Like I prefer the mowing chore bits to the dishwasher chore bits. And resentment starts to build up.


----------



## Duguesclin

turnera said:


> It actually IS important if it is not done consistently. One time? Of course not. For three weeks? Something has to be done to address it. And for most WAWs, it's the consistently NOT doing what you said you would do that causes them to give up.


If the dishes are not done, it means it is not important to her. The next question should be: "Is everything alright? Do you need more help?" and not, "You are a Stay At Home Mum. Why the hell aren't they done?"


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

jld said:


> Makes sense. You want to pool the strengths so together you can do the best for your family.
> 
> In SGC's case, she went into a bar where her husband was meeting with his AP and convinced him to come home. That took guts. And then when they got home, she brought out the Marriage Builders materials and started them watching their videos. Without her doing that, I think the marriage would have just fallen apart. The husband would have kept on with the AP and eventually SGC and he would have divorced.
> 
> Even now, she continues to hold the ship together. She looks out for the family's best interests, not just her own.
> 
> She does not need him financially; she works, too. She wants to keep the family intact for the kids, mainly, I think. Is that true, SGC?


A lot of it is for the kids and in general we do get along. We aren't fighting, we spend time together, go out, have stuff in common. We're comfortable, know each other well. He compliments me often, I never have to feel like I have to look or act any way that isn't me. He likes my body type, likes how I look.

The problems are just sex and chores, and chores isn't an issue again - yet- we'll see how it goes once he's back on the same schedule as me. The holidays didn't show me much progress though so I am worried.

For me it's a matter of pros and cons. If I leave what I have in search for something better I may never find it. As long as the good outweighs the bad, it's best for my family to keep trying.
I have no interest in dating, getting to know someone, taking years determining compatibility levels and getting to know someone, being a step-Mom and spitting custody, dealing with ex-husbands and ex-wives and whole new sets of traditions and habits.


----------



## EleGirl

Duguesclin said:


> This sounds complicated. I bet one would argue that the chore bits are not created equal. Like I prefer the mowing chore bits to the dishwasher chore bits. And resentment starts to build up.


This is why I would let the other person choose which 'chore bits' that they want to do. And of course a change in 'chore bits' is always open.

I know couples who have a chore list, and it's a first come first do. So each one tries to do their favorite chores first before the other one gets to it. If done with a sense of humor, it can add a bit of playfulness to the chore thing.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

EleGirl said:


> I don't think that is direct enough for some guys. Have you told him something very direct like: "You are as responsible for household chores as I am. But somehow I'm doing all of them. You need to do 50% of the chores around here. What chores are you going to start doing?" Maybe even hand him a list of chores and tell him to chose.


That I have done, I have also spoken to him about the messages he is sending to his daughter about women and their role, that got through to him and he seemed to understand but there's just no follow through. 

I made charts, let him pick which ones he wanted to do and they wouldn't get done. 

He will tell me in the conversations that he will sweep, mop, whatever but then he doesn't do it. That's the most frustrating part. He diffuses the fight by agreeing with me and saying he will do it, then when it doesn't get done we have the same conversation over again.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> A lot of it is for the kids and in general we do get along. We aren't fighting, we spend time together, go out, have stuff in common. We're comfortable, know each other well. He compliments me often, I never have to feel like I have to look or act any way that isn't me. He likes my body type, likes how I look.
> 
> The problems are just sex and chores, and chores isn't an issue again - yet- we'll see how it goes once he's back on the same schedule as me. The holidays didn't show me much progress though so I am worried.
> 
> For me it's a matter of pros and cons. If I leave what I have in search for something better I may never find it. As long as the good outweighs the bad, it's best for my family to keep trying.
> I have no interest in dating, getting to know someone, taking years determining compatibility levels and getting to know someone, being a step-Mom and spitting custody, dealing with ex-husbands and ex-wives and whole new sets of traditions and habits.


That whole stepparent thing does sound complicated. If you like the ex's new spouse, I am sure it is great. If not, yikes.

If you two did not have kids, SGC, would you stay with him?


----------



## Duguesclin

EleGirl said:


> This is why I would let the other person choose which 'chore bits' that they want to do. And of course a change in 'chore bits' is always open.
> 
> I know couples who have a chore list, and it's a first come first do. So each one tries to do their favorite chores first before the other one gets to it. If done with a sense of humor, it can add a bit of playfulness to the chore thing.


Here chores get done when someone feels like doing them.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

jld said:


> That whole stepparent thing does sound complicated. If you like the ex's new spouse, I am sure it is great. If not, yikes.
> 
> If you two did not have kids, SGC, would you stay with him?


Right now, maybe, but I sure wouldn't have gone through the last 9 years to get here.


----------



## EleGirl

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> That I have done, I have also spoken to him about the messages he is sending to his daughter about women and their role, that got through to him and he seemed to understand but there's just no follow through.
> 
> I made charts, let him pick which ones he wanted to do and they wouldn't get done.
> 
> He will tell me in the conversations that he will sweep, mop, whatever but then he doesn't do it. That's the most frustrating part. He diffuses the fight by agreeing with me and saying he will do it, then when it doesn't get done we have the same conversation over again.


My step kids dad is like this. It's one of the main reasons that I divorced him. The attitude that he had no responsibility to keep up the home, housework, and other chores was mind boggling.

I asked him for instance that since he was not working and I was working long hours, could he please have dinner ready every night at 6pm. That way the kids and he had dinner and I had a dinner ready when I can home late. I don't think that is too much to ask.

He said yes, of course. Well he did cook some meals... about one or two a week. Most nights he's just say "I was not hungry". 

So I'd be home at 9pm and have to scrounge up something to eat.

If roles were reversed, there would have been a hot meal ready. And if it was cold by the time he got home, I would have heated it up for him while he relaxed after a long day at work.

.


----------



## just got it 55

Duguesclin said:


> This sounds complicated. I bet one would argue that the chore bits are not created equal. Like I prefer the mowing chore bits to the dishwasher chore bits. And resentment starts to build up.


One of the tasks I hate is to empty the DW As we mostly run it over night Its ready to decant in the AM

Me being the first one up and out of the shower while making coffee (Takes 15 to 18 minutes to brew) I bit the bullet and do it 

I hate doing it but it makes me feel good that I have lightened my wife's work load

And I don't mention it and look for an atta boy.

I think bring attention to a task completion makes it looks like a covert act.

55


----------



## EleGirl

Duguesclin said:


> Here chores get done when someone feels like doing them.


That's cool. It's about what has happened here. But for example when I was married to my step kid's dad, I was the only one who ever felt like doing chores, so I was the only done doing them.. in the house, in the yard, shopping, running kids around and being the bread winner.

I think that every couple needs to decide how they want to handle this sort of thing. For some the 'do it when you feel like it' thing works, for some a chore list works, for some splitting them by gender roles works.

What usually does not work is when both spouses work and one refuses to pull their weight and take responsibility for about half of what takes to run a home and family. That's what this is about.. this case.


----------



## Blondilocks

MachoMcCoy said:


> This is awkward. I saw that this thread immediately started growing. Threads only grow this fast if we have a cheating wife on the run or there's a fight. So I figured it had already failed. No sense in me jumping in now.
> 
> Had I read past that first paragraph, I would have seen that the actual PURPOSE of the thread was to start a fight.
> 
> OP. You nailed it. You nailed it perfectly. Then it turned into a fight. The biggest problem facing marriages today and we all just want to "win" our argument.
> 
> I'm still not reading any further. I know the answer. there are two parties at "fault", and not necessarily in this order:
> 
> 1 - The husband who pushed her away, knew he was doing it, and continued to do it anyhow.
> 
> 2 - WHOEVER'S fault it is that continues to allow society to raise yet ANOTHER generation of men who will continue to push away the most important person in theor world and NOT KNOW THEY ARE DOING IT!!!!!
> 
> Until it's too late, of course. Wife walks. We fight over who's fault it is. Rinse, repeat.
> 
> Over, and over, and over, and over...
> 
> OP. I lived your original post. My wife was you. I call it my "kick in the gut". That magical moment in my life when I realized that I lost my wife. The loss was complete. The loss was forever.
> 
> *And I knew i was doing it all along. I knew it was my fault. I didn't stop. My life ended that day.*
> 
> So there. You win ladies. Move along. There's nothing more to see here. We suck. Go high five each other and go back to all of those 50 page threads where you treat each one like it is a different scenario. It isn't. They're all the same. Neanderthal man doesn't get it so she walks.
> 
> To bad we can't even agree on the cause. That means we'll NEVER get to finding a solution.


The million dollar question is WHY didn't you stop? Why are you blaming anyone and everyone but yourself? And, why are you throwing yourself a pity party non-stop? A bully who's been reduced to a whiner is pitiful. You have my sympathy.


----------



## turnera

Duguesclin said:


> This sounds complicated. I bet one would argue that the chore bits are not created equal. Like I prefer the mowing chore bits to the dishwasher chore bits. And resentment starts to build up.


Which is why I said that you go down the chart PICKING the things you want to be responsible for. At the start, each of you gets to pick the things you 'hate the least' so that each of you is less likely to get resentful. Of course, by the time you get to the end, SOMEbody has to pick the 'clean the catbox' and such. But because you've been able to fairly delegate the work up to that point, the two of you agree that there's not that much to complain about.

And it's only complicated at the beginning, when you're sitting there and acknowledging just how long it takes to get each thing done and taking stock of all the little things that actually DO have to get done. Like nobody thinks about having to clean out the fridge, but it DOES have to get done every so often. Once you're in agreement about that, there's nothing complicated about it. And this comes straight from a therapist, so I'll assume it's something therapists believe will help marriages with inequality.


----------



## turnera

Duguesclin said:


> If the dishes are not done, it means it is not important to her. The next question should be: "Is everything alright? Do you need more help?" and not, "You are a Stay At Home Mum. Why the hell aren't they done?"


So what happens when the person says nothing is wrong, but then never does the dishes? And show me where I said to approach them with 'why the hell aren't they done?'?


----------



## jld

One thing I regret about Dug's and my first 20 years together is all the energy I wasted on worrying and being picky. I wish I would have relaxed. I made my life a lot more stressful than it ever needed to be.

But I just could not see it back then. Every little thing just seemed to matter so much.

And it is stressful to have little kids. Our youngest is 7 now. Life is a lot easier than it used to be.


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> My step kids dad is like this. It's one of the main reasons that I divorced him. The attitude that he had no responsibility to keep up the home, housework, and other chores was mind boggling.
> 
> I asked him for instance that since he was not working and I was working long hours, could he please have dinner ready every night at 6pm. That way the kids and he had dinner and I had a dinner ready when I can home late. I don't think that is too much to ask.
> 
> He said yes, of course. Well he did cook some meals... about one or two a week. Most nights he's just say "I was not hungry".
> 
> So I'd be home at 9pm and have to scrounge up something to eat.
> 
> *If roles were reversed, there would have been a hot meal ready. And if it was cold by the time he got home, I would have heated it up for him while he relaxed after a long day at work.*
> 
> .


You are a way better wife than I have ever been, Ele. 

A man would be foolish not to appreciate what he had in you.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> So what happens when the person says nothing is wrong, but then never does the dishes? And show me where I said to approach them with 'why the hell aren't they done?'?


Dug is not disagreeing with you, turnera. He totally believes in being supportive of a wife and mother.


----------



## john117

Since we are in the chores part of the program my experience is that it's not the magnitude or the type of chore but my spouses attitude. 

The holidays are generally a very chore heavy time in the house. There's many rooms with teak furniture that need to be oiled. J2 does this but it takes a LOT to get her ready to oil. 

That means clear space, spread plastic, remove drawers or shelves... I do all that yet its always "you're not helping". 

That's not how it's supposed to work.


----------



## ocotillo

Duguesclin said:


> I did not marry my wife because she would be a great housewife. I married her because she was smart, unconventional and interesting. I also knew she would be a great mother.


Some things can't be "liked" enough. Kudos to both of you.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Since we are in the chores part of the program my experience is that it's not the magnitude or the type of chore but my spouses attitude.
> 
> The holidays are generally a very chore heavy time in the house. There's many rooms with *teak furniture* that need to be oiled. J2 does this but it takes a LOT to get her ready to oil.
> 
> That means clear space, spread plastic, remove drawers or shelves... I do all that yet its always "you're not helping".
> 
> That's not how it's supposed to work.


The burden of wealth. 

She grew up with servants, right? Has she ever done the teak oiling all by herself?


----------



## Holland

just got it 55 said:


> One of the tasks I hate is to empty the DW As we mostly run it over night Its ready to decant in the AM
> 
> Me being the first one up and out of the shower while making coffee (Takes 15 to 18 minutes to brew) I bit the bullet and do it
> 
> I hate doing it but it makes me feel good that I have lightened my wife's work load
> 
> And I don't mention it and look for an atta boy.
> 
> *I think bring attention to a task completion makes it looks like a covert act.
> *
> 55


True. It makes an adult look like a child that is seeking validation and reward for something they should be doing anyway.

On the other side though I do thank Mr H when I see he has gone out of his way to do something to lighten my load.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Blondilocks said:


> The million dollar question is WHY didn't you stop? Why are you blaming anyone and everyone but yourself? And, why are you throwing yourself a pity party non-stop? A bully who's been reduced to a whiner is pitiful. You have my sympathy.


And I'm out again. 

Good luck everyone.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> The burden of wealth.
> 
> She grew up with servants, right? Has she ever done the teak oiling all by herself?


She does the oiling part but not the disassemble - assemble - prep part. Think IKEA furniture except made of teak and hardwood (frames and such). The teak parts require oiling and hand rubbing to keep their finish, every 18-24 months. We do it every other Christmas and it takes a good 6 weeks. 

Then there's the annual carpet shampoo which I do, etc etc. It never ends.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> She does the oiling part but not the disassemble - assemble - prep part. Think IKEA furniture except made of teak and hardwood (frames and such). The teak parts require oiling and hand rubbing to keep their finish, every 18-24 months. We do it every other Christmas and it takes a good 6 weeks.
> 
> Then there's the annual carpet shampoo which I do, etc etc. It never ends.


Sounds like a lot of work.


----------



## Duguesclin

john117 said:


> She does the oiling part but not the disassemble - assemble - prep part. Think IKEA furniture except made of teak and hardwood (frames and such). The teak parts require oiling and hand rubbing to keep their finish, every 18-24 months. We do it every other Christmas and it takes a good 6 weeks.
> 
> Then there's the annual carpet shampoo which I do, etc etc. It never ends.


You have low and high skill work. Why should you be acknowledged for the common work?>


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Sounds like a lot of work.


I forgot the leather couches which require oiling - teak parts - and cleaning and conditioning - leather parts 

I don't mind the work but J2's demeanor is a lot less friendly than i would like.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> I forgot the leather couches which require oiling - teak parts - and cleaning and conditioning - leather parts
> 
> I don't mind the work but J2's demeanor is a lot less friendly than i would like.


You are a hard worker, john. 

Does she not really like doing the work, but knows it has to be done? And that puts her in a bad mood?


----------



## just got it 55

Why are Grandmothers so f.....ing smart
Mine use to say

Many hands make light work

Raising our kids I do regret not asking more of them to help out

But as I said in a previous post My DIL s don't put with any sh!t

as a result my sons are really good at contributing to the home duties.

55


----------



## jld

just got it 55 said:


> Why are Grandmothers so f.....ing smart
> Mine use to say
> 
> *Many hands make light work*
> 
> Raising our kids I do regret not asking more of them to help out
> 
> But as I said in a previous post My DIL s don't put with any sh!t
> 
> as a result my sons are really good at contributing to the home duties.
> 
> 55


Totally agree with your grandmother.

We have two guiding principles here:

1) Keep it simple

2) Everybody helps


----------



## john117

jld said:


> You are a hard worker, john.
> 
> Does she not really like doing the work, but knows it has to be done? And that puts her in a bad mood?


She likes doing the work. I don't but know that it has to be done so I do it.

My beef is that (a) she acts like she's doing us a favor and (b) she does not understand that this is a by-product of choosing to keep a huge house.

I told her once it's similar to many friends I have that own vintage cars or homebuilt aircraft or large sailboat type craft. Lots of money goes in them, and lots of effort, for little reward to the rest of the family. The rest of the family is basically stuck paying the piper.

This is a difficult time for us as we see a lot of friends going to travel for the holidays, and all we do is meaningless work only to come back from the holidays dead tired...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> She likes doing the work. I don't but know that it has to be done.
> 
> My beef is that (a) she acts like she's doing us a favor and (b) she does not understand that this is a by-product of choosing to keep a huge house.
> 
> I told her once it's similar to many friends I have that own vintage cars or homebuilt aircraft or large sailboat type craft. Lots of money goes in them, and lots of effort, for little reward to the rest of the family. The rest of the family is basically stuck paying the piper.


John, why did you accept such an expensive, labor-intensive lifestyle?


----------



## john117

jld said:


> John, why did you accept such an expensive, labor-intensive lifestyle?


Because 20 years ago or even 10 it was not an issue time wise. It's not an issue money wise regardless. Now it is an issue energy wise. At 55 you have a lot less energy than at 40.

My wish would be to downsize to a townhouse and keep half the furniture and give the rest to the girls. 

I don't regret buying the furniture as it looks showroom new after 25 years. But after a while you get too old for it. It's a great investment but it needs lots of TLC to stay looking good.


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> She likes doing the work. I don't but know that it has to be done so I do it.
> 
> My beef is that (a) she acts like she's doing us a favor and (b) she does not understand that this is a by-product of choosing to keep a huge house.
> 
> I told her once it's similar to many friends I have that own vintage cars or homebuilt aircraft or large sailboat type craft. Lots of money goes in them, and lots of effort, for little reward to the rest of the family. The rest of the family is basically stuck paying the piper.
> 
> This is a difficult time for us as we see a lot of friends going to travel for the holidays, and all we do is meaningless work only to come back from the holidays dead tired...


Hire someone to oil the furniture.

I oil mine weekly. Easy to do.. mine not teak.. but hard woods that need oiling. But then again, my house is only 2,500 sq. So there is not all that much of it.

.


----------



## jld

Yikes. This thread is getting too high class for me.


----------



## karole

You really get off telling people what you have don't you John?


----------



## jld

karole said:


> You really get off telling people what you have don't you John?


I think it is just the reality of his life.

I don't envy him for it. Sounds like a lot of work.


----------



## karole

jld said:


> I think it is just the reality of his life.
> 
> I don't envy him for it. Sounds like a lot of work.


Ok


----------



## john117

EleGirl said:


> Hire someone to oil the furniture.
> 
> I oil mine weekly. Easy to do.. mine not teak.. but hard woods that need oiling. But then again, my house is only 2,500 sq. So there is not all that much of it.
> 
> .


Teak oil has the added property of being a bit too toxic... So bedrooms and stuff need a few days to dry before being used again.

Maybe teak oil causes LD in women 

(Probably not)


----------



## john117

karole said:


> You really get off telling people what you have don't you John?


It's the reality of living the high life and DIY. 

I do my own landscaping, most home maintenance, etc. at 55 unlike my able bodied 40 year old neighbors who outsource everything. 

We did have the cat groomed at the vet tho


----------



## john117

The thing is this - I don't mind doing the work but there needs to be an exit strategy. We could easily furnish a townhouse and two apartments with all the furniture and stuff. Yet my wife is, to quote Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull, "Living in the Past". 

We can't do this for ever ourselves and certainly we can't afford to pay someone do it for us in a few years when we retire. My wife thinks we can. Sure, if we spend all our retirement income and time teaching undocumented workers the intricacies of oiling teak 

Therefore, WAH.


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> Teak oil has the added property of being a bit too toxic... So bedrooms and stuff need a few days to dry before being used again.
> 
> Maybe teak oil causes LD in women
> 
> (Probably not)


Probably does... someone needs to do a study


----------



## jld

just got it 55 said:


> T if I gave my sweet wife a vacuum cleaner she would be a WAW for sure :frown2:
> 
> 55


I'd love a new Miele vacuum. Small and lightweight (I think).

But it's $500, and I feel guilty buying one when my Kenmore still works fine.


----------



## karole

John, not trying to be mean but in every thread you post it is always about how much you make, how much money your wife makes, how large your house is, how much your daughters education costs, etc and it goes on. What does it matter? Who are you trying to impress? There are other people on this board I'm sure that have good jobs, sent their kids to good colleges and have saved for retirement but don't feel the need to brag about it. Like I said, not trying to be mean it's just something I have observed in your posts.


----------



## jld

OpenWindows said:


> I think many WAW situations (and Nice Guy situations as well) really boil down to someone who really enjoys "taking" matching with someone who does not enjoy long-term selfless giving. It doesn't really make anyone right or wrong, just incompatible. They both still need what they need in order to be happy, even if the other doesn't agree.
> 
> Think about it... a lot of the husbands mentioned in this thread might be a very good match for a really strong caregiver personality.


See, I think this is Dug and I, but in reverse. 

Dug loves me and likes to do things for me. It may not be everything I ask, and not how I want it, but he will do just about anything if he has time (okay, if he organizes himself to have time). He is out in the kitchen right now making brownies just because I want some, and am busy trying to catch up on this thread.

I feel like I lucked out marrying a "strong caregiver personality." I love being nurtured and feeling safe and sitting on his lap. 

I would like every woman everywhere to feel this way with her husband. That is why I push the guys here on TAM to be kind and understanding with their wives.


----------



## jld

karole said:


> John, not trying to be mean but in every thread you post it is always about how much you make, how much money your wife makes, how large your house is, how much your daughters education costs, etc and it goes on. What does it matter? Who are you trying to impress? There are other people on this board I'm sure that have good jobs, sent their kids to good colleges and have saved for retirement but don't feel the need to brag about it. Like I said, not trying to be mean it's just something I have observed in your posts.


I think because John came from humble roots, it is a big deal to him.

Karole, you and your husband own a successful business, right? Maybe your parents were wealthy, too?

You may have everything john has and more, but you don't feel the need to talk about it because it may seem normal to you. But for john, he might still be pinching himself to believe it's real.


----------



## karole

jld said:


> I think because John came from humble roots, it is a big deal to him.
> 
> Karole, you and your husband own a successful business, right? Maybe your parents were wealthy, too?
> 
> You may have everything john has and more, but you don't feel the need to talk about it because it may seem normal to you. But for john, he might still be pinching himself to believe it's real.


No ma'am my husband And I hAve worked very hard for everything we have. Nothing has been given to us.


----------



## jld

karole said:


> No ma'am my husband And I hAve worked very hard for everything we have. Nothing has been given to us.


That is great, karole. Very admirable. 

You and your husband may just be much more modest people than john and his wife. There are many advantages to being modest.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

SurpriseMyself said:


> If you want to prevent a walkaway wife, ask yourself if there's a problem that your wife wanted addressed that you ignored, hoped would go away, didn't talk about, that you pretend like isn't there but you know you did nothing about. If your wife no longer seeks your counsel, no longer wants to be with you, goes on vacations without you, you may find yourself alone and never see it coming. But even that isn't true, since you know you aren't addressing the issues in your marriage.
> 
> In short, I know many women who are sticking it out when they don't love their husband anymore. Is your wife dissatisfied with your marriage and you don't know it? If you don't ask yourself this question, you are risking everything.


Jumping back to OPost. Figure what I need to say.

In a larger proportion of cases girls are brought up with a Daddy figure to hand them these things, and often look for a daddy figure/sugar daddy to provide things for them. (my brother falls into this category, as he's repeating that with his daughters, I pity their future husbands.)

When they've got their placeholder, if he doesn't perform correctly like Daddy is supposed to (providing everything, going away when not wanted), or she gets independent/promoted and her current Daddy isn't the best model for her needs, then it is not unusual for such a person to upgrade (or source a substitute Daddy).

This also goes for boys who marry/girlfriend a Mummy, to look after them and clean their clothes and room.

It's not really surprising. We don't get a brain upgrade when we hit teens (downgrade if anything). So when we move into mating life, it's what we know. Even those who are coached well by their parents are seldom understanding of what they're doing. And you can bet the media and government aren't go to tell you what you need to know (vs selling you whatever the latest fad or consultant is selling)


----------



## john117

karole said:


> No ma'am my husband And I hAve worked very hard for everything we have. Nothing has been given to us.


I will provide a reply to the extent that it's related to WAH, ie me 

Karole, the wealth is what has fvcked up my marriage. Like you, I have humble roots. I came to America with two suitcases, an undergraduate degree in psychology, and $500. Thirty years later things are good. Or so it looks.

So, what has happened to make me want to WAH? It's the wealth. I have no desire to eat cat food stuck in a useless and decaying McMansion and surrounded by krap I don't care for. I like to experience new things, travel, and have fun. So, in a little over a year I'm WAH.

So, material culture is at the heart of the issue.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

spotthedeaddog said:


> Jumping back to OPost. Figure what I need to say.
> 
> In a larger proportion of cases girls are brought up with a Daddy figure to hand them these things, and often look for a daddy figure/sugar daddy to provide things for them. (my brother falls into this category, as he's repeating that with his daughters, I pity their future husbands.)
> 
> When they've got their placeholder, if he doesn't perform correctly like Daddy is supposed to (providing everything, going away when not wanted), or she gets independent/promoted and her current Daddy isn't the best model for her needs, then it is not unusual for such a person to upgrade (or source a substitute Daddy).
> 
> This also goes for boys who marry/girlfriend a Mummy, to look after them and clean their clothes and room.


I do not think that WAW have the problem of looking for a Dad but I do think many married men who were looking for a Mom. 

Most WAWs who have talked about it did not have unrealistic expectations. They had basic needs and wants that weren't met. 

WAWs are women who tried for a long period of time to fix things before giving up and eventually leaving.


----------



## MattMatt

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I do not think that WAW have the problem of looking for a Dad but I do think many married men who were looking for a Mom.
> 
> Most WAWs who have talked about it did not have unrealistic expectations. They had basic needs and wants that weren't met.
> 
> WAWs are women who tried for a long period of time to fix things before giving up and eventually leaving.


Some are, some aren't.

Some had lazy husbands, others had ridiculous expectations and thought that they deserved to be transported round by a flying unicorn powered by rainbow farts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

MattMatt said:


> Some are, some aren't.
> 
> Some had lazy husbands, others had ridiculous expectations and thought that they deserved to be transported round by a flying unicorn powered by rainbow farts.


Just as some of the husbands were reasonable men and some just wanted mommies.

Because of this, each case needs to be looked at individually.

The term "WAW" is just that a term with a framework definition. It does not define all marriages and/or all women who leave marriages.


----------



## Cosmos

spotthedeaddog said:


> *
> In a larger proportion of cases girls are brought up with a Daddy figure to hand them these things, and often look for a daddy figure/sugar daddy to provide things for them. (my brother falls into this category, as he's repeating that with his daughters, I pity their future husbands.)*
> *
> When they've got their placeholder, if he doesn't perform correctly like Daddy is supposed to (providing everything, going away when not wanted), or she gets independent/promoted and her current Daddy isn't the best model for her needs, then it is not unusual for such a person to upgrade (or source a substitute Daddy).
> *



Whilst this might happen in _some_ relationship dynamics, I don't think that it is the norm in_ most_ relationships.

There's nothing unreasonable in wanting both an emotional and physical connection with one's spouse (in fact both are essential), and I think it's the complete absence of the former that we're talking about in this thread.


----------



## GusPolinski

john117 said:


> It's the reality of living the high life and DIY.
> 
> I do my own landscaping, most home maintenance, etc. at 55 unlike my able bodied 40 year old neighbors who outsource everything.
> 
> *We did have the cat groomed at the vet tho*


Smart man.


----------



## john117

guspolinski said:


> smart man.


Cat sitting on one of a dozen teak tables...


----------



## Cosmos

What a gorgeous kitty, John!


----------



## MachoMcCoy

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Did you ever tell your husband that the marital days were numbered if he didn't begin to take your needs seriously?


I can't believe someone is even asking this question in this day and age. OF COURSE she told him. But "telling" does nothing. And I can tell from 48 pages and counting, nobody has figured that out yet.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> If the husband had realized she went silent because she had given up, and had he begun to work on his side of things, she probably could have been coaxed back into the marriage long before she finally walked away.


Uh, no. 



the guy said:


> If the title was "How to prevent a walk away spouse"...
> 
> But what the hell do I know.LOL


You know a lot TG. I respect your opinion. But there is no term called "Walk away spouse", or "walk away husband" for a reason. You obviously have some brushing up to do on the subject.



Blondilocks said:


> She is saying that if a man is in the position of having his wife leave...


There is no such thing as a man knowing his wife is about to walk. That's what makes this a "thing". He goes about life clueless until it's too late. And then it's too late.

That's page 1. This is going to be fun.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MachoMcCoy said:


> There is no such thing as a man knowing his wife is about to walk. That's what makes this a "thing". He goes about life clueless until it's too late. And then it's too late.


Of course not, which is why her decision to walk away is all the more valid. If a physically alive husband isn't aware of how unhappy his wife is to the point that her "walking away" comes as some extraordinary shock, well then she made the right decision. Any husband (or wife) who treats their spouse as an option shouldn't be surprised in the slightest when that person finally has enough. Any "shock" they have just further solidifies how sh!tty of a spouse they were.

Also, there are tons of walk away husbands. Many just up and leave after enduring too much. Others go the affair route in the hopes their wife finds out, throws them out and then they don't have to be the bad guy.


----------



## john117

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Also, there are tons of walk away husbands. Many just up and leave after enduring too much. Others go the affair route in the hopes their wife finds out, throws them out and then they don't have to be the bad guy.


Speaking as a future WAH, I think the affair route may be risky on legal grounds depending on state. It hurts a lot more to not be able to fix the relationship than it hurts to not have a relationship in the first place....


----------



## the guy

MachoMcCoy said:


> You know a lot TG. I respect your opinion. But there is no term called "Walk away spouse", or "walk away husband" for a reason. You obviously have some brushing up to do on the subject.
> 
> 
> .


I can't imagine "brushing up" on anything....I might lose the charm and grace I have to offer to this community.:grin2:

At least my spelling is getting beter!


----------



## MachoMcCoy

technovelist said:


> But when it isn't addressed, does she ever get to the point of saying "If you don't deal with this I'm out of here?" or does she assume that he figures that out himself?


Doesn't matter. He won't "get it" until she's gone.




the guy said:


> At any rate both spouses have to *tell* each other what they need and work together so they can phuck and blow shyt up at the same time.


More "tell him". I'm sure you'll all figure out that part in 48 pages. You HAVE to. That is 100% of the problem. You do figure that out, don't you?



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> When she "complains" she is telling your her hand, and giving you the opportunity to keep her.


More "telling". 



OpenWindows said:


> I don't think he really *believed* I would actually leave him until I'd been gone for six months and still didn't want to come back.


Now we're getting somewhere. See that bolded word? That is CRITICAL. PLEASE consider the difference between "telling" someone something and making them BELIEVE it. Not even close to the same thing.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Then you became a WAW, and he acted surprised?


Oh, it wasn't an act. That I KNOW.



the guy said:


> Is you old man begging and crying about the lose of the marriage?


You have no idea.



Red Sonja said:


> Yes, he had an epic meltdown.


I love being right.



Red Sonja said:


> I had the "I'm leaving, here's the why and when" conversation with him 2 years before I left. His response was "do whatever you have to do".


An obvious idiot, right? Go ahead girls. You win. There is no more to do here. We've fixed the problem. Well, not actually FIXED. Or even found the root cause. But we know who to BLAME!!



Therealbrighteyes said:


> I'll talk about my own situation. I had very specific needs that weren't being met. I laid them out in detail over hundreds upon hundreds of conversations.


WOW. That's a lot of "telling". And it still didn't work. Huh. I don;t know about you all, but I'm seeing a pattern.


SurpriseMyself said:


> In his parents relationship, he saw his father basically ignore his mom and take her for granted.


Interesting. There may be something in their upbringings that caused them to push their wives away. 

So maybe I should have been pitied in some of my posts where I truly tried to help people understand this pattern. So maybe some people MAY have wanted to listen to an admitted "push Away Husband" instead of labeling me a monster and immediately ignoring my posts. "He's an ABUSER". Lowest form of scum on the planet. And I'm ignored instead of being viewed as a potential resource to get into the head of the other "side.



manfromlamancha said:


> And just for completeness, often the man wants his wife to just walk away as in his mind he has had enough of her "whining" and self entitlement (in his mind). That is when he is not prepared to fight for the marriage and a wife walking away is the best thing for him. I have seen plenty of these situations.


No, I don't think you have. If he doesn't give a crap, that's different. He doesn't care, she doesn't care. That's just a bad marriage.

Page 2 complete.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

john117 said:


> Speaking as a future WAH, I think the affair route may be risky on legal grounds depending on state. It hurts a lot more to not be able to fix the relationship than it hurts to not have a relationship in the first place....


For sure and that's true for both sexes, if a state punishes for infidelity that is. I was disputing his assertion that men don't "walk away". Plenty do. Many just up and leave after enduring too much. Others cheat and wait for their wives to make the decision after discovery. 

I hear you on the pain of fixing a relationship. I have been able to fix mine (it's a work in progress) but it was only because my husband showed he was finally all in. As you know, it takes two people to be willing to make a successful relationship. Many of these WAW's have done that for years and received little to nothing in return. I am certain there are countless husbands such as yourself who have done the same. No "sex" has a lock on walk away status. I think women just walk away in the physical form more, where as men walk away in the emotional/checking out/no longer listening realm while they wait for their wives to decide what's next.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

john117 said:


> I will provide a reply to the extent that it's related to WAH, ie me
> 
> Karole, the wealth is what has fvcked up my marriage. Like you, I have humble roots. I came to America with two suitcases, an undergraduate degree in psychology, and $500. Thirty years later things are good. Or so it looks.
> 
> So, what has happened to make me want to WAH? It's the wealth. I have no desire to eat cat food stuck in a useless and decaying McMansion and surrounded by krap I don't care for. I like to experience new things, travel, and have fun. So, in a little over a year I'm WAH.
> 
> So, material culture is at the heart of the issue.


humble roots... my a...
do you have any idea what even an UG degree costs in money and time ?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MachoMcCoy said:


> WOW. That's a lot of "telling". And it still didn't work. Huh. I don;t know about you all, but I'm seeing a pattern.


What would that pattern be?


----------



## Mike6211

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Most WAWs who have talked about it did not have unrealistic expectations. They had basic needs and wants that weren't met.


But did they actually express their needs in a way that their husbands could understand? .....


kag123 said:


> ... I'm a woman and I own that my husbands style of communication AND his ability to relieve my style of communication are different than my own ... When I was younger, I used to think that ALL people thought exactly the same way that I do. I would get frustrated - "Why can't he just SEE what he needs to do?".


... ...


SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> WAWs are women who tried for a long period of time to fix things before giving up and eventually leaving.


But did they try *effectively*? Which is ...


kag123 said:


> ... MY problem - not his. ... - IF I need something from him, _ come up with concise actions that can be presented clearly to him. *This is absolutely the most difficult part for me...*... I try to speak his language this way. Instead of saying "I need to ... feel that you understand me when I talk" (how does one do that, exactly?), I will try to say "When I share something important with you, it takes a lot of courage for me to open up. When you act disinterested by playing on your phone or continuing to do a chore while I am talking, it makes me feel that you are not interested and that it is not safe for me to share myself with you ...
> 
> Every concrete action I request of him he does enthusiastically, and that goes in direct opposition of my previous thoughts about him ... *The hardest thing for ME in all of this is to figure out how to boil down the complexity of my needs into quantifiable actions that I can request of him.* [Mike6211's emphasis] _


_
If it's hard for a W to work out how to "boil down the complexity of [her] needs into quantifiable actions", how much harder is it for her H to figure out the necessary actions if his wife's needs haven't been expressed beyond just saying (effectively) "make me happy"?!!

I'm not suggesting that H should just expect a to-do list handed to him on a plate. He needs 'game', he needs to know his Five Love Languages, he needs to make an effort. But he's not Prince Charming and he's not a mind-reader._


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

spotthedeaddog said:


> humble roots... my a...
> do you have any idea what even an UG degree costs in money and time ?


Look beyond your own driveway and imagine a world that is bigger than you. He stated he is not from the United States. The first world nations that offer higher education for free include: Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Germany and France. Other countries (non first world) are Brazil and Slovenia. Countless other first world nations offer near free via subsidies. The United States is one of very few "firsts" that makes higher education a profit rich business venture. 

Time is a different story and it sounds like he spent his wisely. You seem angry at his success, what did you do?


----------



## the guy

Alls I'm saying is there is nothing wrong with communication.

Furthermore I have learned that smacking my old lady around doesn't work for me or her,and I'm better off dragging my old lady camping and phucking her in the middle of the woods, rather then leaving her alone at home to find some POS that tells her all the right things[and most are about how shyty I am].
At the end of the day she doesn't care were we phuck as long as she is comfortable and gets to shoot her Desert Eagle at some tanninite.

At the end of the day, we are both *telling* each other whats what......just a couple of people that like to shoot guns, have sex and eat red meat from a open fire! That and a thick @ss air matress.LOL 


Threadjack over.


----------



## john117

spotthedeaddog said:


> humble roots... my a...
> do you have any idea what even an UG degree costs in money and time ?


Plenty of free ride scholarship money in the USA if one is academically good and financially disadvantaged.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> most men don't just walk away, they have an affair.


NO men walk-away. "Walk-Away-Husband" isn't a thing. It's a different dynamic. WHATEVER caused a man to "walk". it is not a part of this conversation.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> The husbands of WAW are not giving or sensitive to their wives' needs, and will not give their lives for their wives, because their egos are too selfish and weak to listen to their wives with their hearts.


Are you the one that called push-away husbands "lazy" also?

Do you all have any idea how many marriages fall into this category? How many wives are pulling away from husbands? I'm not even including divorces, and I'd say at least HALF of "happy" marriages have a wife who are at least in the initial stages of this happening. Are all of these men selfish, weak, and lazy?

I'm afraid I need to jump into the name game already as well, and I'm only on page 3.

Ladies, what the **** is the matter with YOU that you keep on marrying this swine?



JukeboxHero said:


> everytime I read a thread like this, I wonder if I'm one of these husbands that could've done more to save his marriage.


Ya' think?



EleGirl said:


> Your case does bring up some important points.


Not for this discussion it doesn't. Are you the referee who decides who is right or who is wrong in this particular instance? Why does it matter? This guy just described ONE INDIVIDUAL case of a WAW, and we are expected to comment on it? Why? All we're doing is placing blame here. I'm glad that you are qualified to make the dicision re: who was right and who was wrong. But you know how this went down?


Wife was unhappy.
Husband KNEW she was unhappy but had no clue HOW unhappy she was.
Husband doesn't change behavior. Didn't hear her when she "told him" what was wrong.
Wife walks.

See what I mean? This was excessive gaming (thanks for giving him a bye on "blame"). Mine was emotional abuse. Someone else was drugs. Porn. Ignoring her. 

You see? It does NOT matter what the "what" is. It's the PATTERN! We can't fix a million individual instances. Why would we need to when they follow the same damn pattern every time.



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> According to willard Harley, of His Needs Her Needs, and Marriage Builders/Love Busters, etc. you should have started with finding 15 hours of things you both like to do together, and then filled in whatever time you had left with the things that you like to do which don't involve her. Did you do that?


NOBODY does that.



JukeboxHero said:


> Perhaps I didn't communicate that to her clearly enough, or often enough.


:banghead:



JukeboxHero said:


> I suggested marriage Counseling. She refused to go no matter what I said. I told her I wanted to fix the marriage, but her answer was always a variation of "I don't think it can be fixed anymore", "it's too little-too late", "it will never be the same"


Right. That's how it works...

And?



EleGirl said:


> But.. it is not necessarily true.
> 
> ...a lot of men, if not most, do expect the woman they marry to change.


Please cite sources for this. 



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> IIt sounds like you two were incompatable, *and she was an entitled spoiled brat.* She doesn't sound like a WAW. WAW's are usually married long enough to raise children and see them off to college before they decide it's the right time to leave.


I'll divert from schooling you on WAW's to touch on something else. Why is a member of this board always right and the person they are describing as wrong. And how did you all decide in this case?

And I'd like to see your sources for you WAW description. She "leaves the marriage" when the kids are gone. She became a WAW the moment she gave up on trying to get the problem through her husbands thick head YEARS prior.

I combined pages 3 and 4. That'll make this move on a little faster.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

breeze said:


> The 70+ year old woman who literally walked out on her husband one day, seemingly out of the blue...She took nothing and went to live in a caravan park by herself, and never spoke to her husband again.


What a brave gal. Let's try to fix it before people feel the need to remain miserable until they're 70 any more.



Thundarr said:


> Sometimes our differing upbringings and pasts make us more incompatible than we could have imagined. Maybe your STBXH is a decent guy yet you guys still have no common ground to meet on.


Doesn't matter now, does it? The pattern struck. The very specific, very predictable, almost inevitable pattern. But we'll treat it like it's different, OK? Just to be sure fixing it remains impossible.



3Xnocharm said:


> the majority of men in our circles are more concerned with themselves and their buddies, and doing their own thing, and complain about their wives. They dont care about actually spending time with them. Rare is the husband we hear or see being enthusiastic about his wife. I dont understand it, and its sad.


It IS sad. And VERY predictable. So why are you STILL letting your daughters marry us without the warning? Whey are we sill raising our sons not to recognise it is happening?

Oh, right. We need to place "blame" first.

Carry on.



deg20 said:


> When my wife became distant and cold, I noticed. When I asked why...why she was avoiding me...always in her phone...never touching me in bed, I got the same responses..."don't stress me out"...don't guilt me"...
> 
> She NEVER communicated.


Uh...this is awkward...but the walking happened LONG before you noticed and started to do something about it. That's standard MO. The man notices after it's too late. How is it POSSIBLE you missed that in the extensive literature on the subject?



lifeistooshort said:


> Hmm, I specifically *told* my ex I was miserable and his response was that it was my problem and he was happy.
> 
> His disdain for me was evident.
> 
> Yet when I divorced him he lost his mind. .... said he thought we were in this "come hvll or high water". He was truly shocked.
> 
> Translation: I didn't think it mattered how I treated you because I didn't think you'd go anywhere.
> 
> And yes, had he been a better hb I might have stayed married to him.
> 
> Just as well though, I'm remarried to a much better match.
> 
> And after 10 years he's still single. ....i guess it's hard to convince women these days that they're beneath you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OK. Another textbook WAW scenario. And VERY GOOD description of a typical push-away scumbag husband. And there is a VERY GOOD chance your daughter will marry one. That's the "repeat" part of "rinse, repeat".

What do you plan to do to be sure your daughter doesn't marry one? What will you tell your sons that will prevent this from happening to them?



OpenWindows said:


> They didn't think it mattered if they ignored us. Then they didn't think it mattered if they ignored our threats of divorce. When we left, they were surprised, because they'd never really considered the possibility that we might do it.


Right. Haven't we agreed to all of this already? Your point?

Page 5


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Starstarfish said:


> I stopped bringing up things that never go anywhere. I don't share my heart like I used to, because it's met with nothingness and silence. Or the implication I'm "being too emotional." So, things are better right? I've "gotten over it." I've stopped "complaining about something." But that doesn't hide the pain. It just means that if I become a WAW, our marriage dies with a whimper and not with a scream.


IF you become a walk- away wife?

Did you say IF?

I've got bad news for you...



MachoMcCoy said:


> Please don't let them be 6 pages of finger pointing.


I'll get back to YOUR naive a$$ later.



EleGirl said:


> One thing that we need to remember about the topic of this thread is not talking about every marriage. It's not talking about every woman or every man.
> 
> It is talking about a particular type of situation that affects some subset of couples *who end up divorced.*


Anybody here living in a WAW situation that is NOT divorced? Besides me, I mean. And Turnera. 

That's one of the BIG problems with this term. A WAW is a WAW because she DIDN'T "walk". Remember, she walked away before the husband even "knew" it had happened in each and every case. Each and every WAW is a WAW BEFORE they divorce. Whether or not they actually end up divorced is moot.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

EleGirl said:


> I think that this thread could be seen as talking to women as much as to men. Woman have a huge stake in learning about the WAW dynamics and how to prevent their marriage from going that route.


And how do they do that?

I have too many points to make here so I had to go light on the "I told him a million times and nothing changed theme". So...

Once she see's it happening she'll be able to..."tell him"?

Actions speak louder than words is another one of my themes. What can she "do"? Pull away? Check. Pull away more until he notices enough to "promise" to change? Check.

There is nothing she can do. Another theme is how the guys are always "shocked". Ever noticed that? I was "shocked". Why was I shocked? I knew what I was doing (another commonality. Follow the commonalities). But I was still "shocked".

Get as many men as possible together for a study. Men who can say "that seemingly irrational phenomenon is exactly what happened to my marriage". 

It will be a hard sample to fill. A lot of it has to do with how the husband figured it out. A lot of men who are now divorced don't know this is the reason. Someone will say: "No, this DEFINITELY wasn't it in MY marriage. She CHEATED". Maybe so. But let's talk about the years leading up to her deciding to cheat.

But the BIG reason it will be hard to fill this sample is that most of the men that should be in it don't even know they qualify. A MASSIVE number of push-away husbands will tell you they are in the perfect marriage right now. 

There is nothing the wife can do. The husbands need to fix this.

I'm a push-away husband. I lost my wife. I will pay for that for the rest of my life. I don't want your pity. I don't care if you hate me. But I'm offering myself up to anyone who can figure out what made me do it. What made all of us do it. 

My poison was emotional abuse. It shouldn't matter the cause, but abuse is the lowest of the low. Don't listen to me, slay me and move on.

Rinse, repeat.

I will leave you all alone now. Please proceed with the blame game.

Macho


----------



## OpenWindows

Macho... you talk a lot without saying much. I need some clarification, if you would.

It sounds like you're saying that this situation is just inevitable and there's nothing we can do about it. Is that correct? If not, HOW do you feel it can be prevented or fixed?

You say telling is not good enough and we have to make them believe. But you don't say how to do that. How do we make them believe us, before we reach the point of no return?

Are you saying that the wife should leave before she's really "done", to drive the point home? That she should leave when she doesn't really mean it yet? And if she does, how can her husband make her believe that this time is different from every other time that he promised and didn't deliver?


----------



## Married but Happy

I haven't followed the entire thread, but I think Macho is entirely correct or so close that it doesn't matter. As for solutions, I don't think there are any that can be widely applied. Short of social change that leads to changes in how men connect with their wives as equal partners, it won't. Perhaps if women realize that they aren't being heard and notice they are disconnecting, they should leap to the end point and file for divorce immediately. This is before they become so distant that there is no chance of reconciliation. The "shock" to their husband may come early enough that the husband will actually respond to the need for change, and be able to do so in time to fix the marriage. Of course, I think a lot of the progression in the disconnect is slow and subtle, and progresses to a point where it is very difficult to recover. I don't know if women consciously realize where things are heading early on - by the time the trajectory takes them to conscious evaluation of the problem, it may be too late.

Anyway, at this time, I think only good education - for both men and women - about this and other relationship issues before you marry may help reduce a wide variety of marital problem. Such education won't happen unless parents teach it, or individuals seek it for themselves, and without awareness that there is a real potential problem for their future, there is no reason or motivation to do so.

Let me add the usual disclaimers. Not all men fail to listen or respond. Not all women disconnect when their needs aren't met - many will have enough met and will continue to meet their husbands' needs as well. Neither men nor women are always perfect, nor are they always aware of their own or their partners' shortcomings. Even in retrospect, not everyone will see their own faults and contributions to failure of a marriage, and this is normal: few people can truly own their own issues, and it is easier and more comfortable to assign blame than accept it.


----------



## ocotillo

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Maybe there is no "ultimate wife" thread *because most men don't just walk away, they have an affair.*


No.

Men have a tendency to snap completely. Some put guns in their mouths. Others simply disappear. Still others walk away. I've seen it many times over the years, once with a blood relative.

--Topic for a different thread though.


----------



## Married but Happy

In the Jokes about marriage thread, EllisRedding posted the following which seems to capture the concept of this thread beautifully:

My wife left a note on the fridge. 
"It's not working. I can't take it anymore. I am going to my mom's place."
I opened the fridge. The light came on. The beer was cold... What the hell did she mean?


----------



## Married but Happy

Actually, I do have one suggestion. I think both men and women tend to tune out things they don't want to hear, especially if they are repeated. Requests that are difficult or uncomfortable and require effort or change can thus be ignored, and hopefully they'll go away. Clearly, they usually don't go away. I am very tuned in to my wife, and I still do this sometimes. She does too. We both know it happens, so we've come up with an idea that usually works, at least for us.

So, when we feel we aren't being heard or no action is being taken, we have a code word. If we preface the issue with "We need to deal with this NOW, ...." The word NOW is a trigger we've agreed will command attention and appropriate action. It means something that can't be put off or ignored.


----------



## Ynot

This whole thread is predicated on being able to fix something beyond your abilities.


----------



## lifeistooshort

MachoMcCoy said:


> What a brave gal. Let's try to fix it before people feel the need to remain miserable until they're 70 any more.
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't matter now, does it? The pattern struck. The very specific, very predictable, almost inevitable pattern. But we'll treat it like it's different, OK? Just to be sure fixing it remains impossible.
> 
> 
> 
> It IS sad. And VERY predictable. So why are you STILL letting your daughters marry us without the warning? Whey are we sill raising our sons not to recognise it is happening?
> 
> Oh, right. We need to place "blame" first.
> 
> Carry on.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh...this is awkward...but the walking happened LONG before you noticed and started to do something about it. That's standard MO. The man notices after it's too late. How is it POSSIBLE you missed that in the extensive literature on the subject?
> 
> 
> 
> OK. Another textbook WAW scenario. And VERY GOOD description of a typical push-away scumbag husband. And there is a VERY GOOD chance your daughter will marry one. That's the "repeat" part of "rinse, repeat".
> 
> What do you plan to do to be sure your daughter doesn't marry one? What will you tell your sons that will prevent this from happening to them?
> 
> 
> 
> Right. Haven't we agreed to all of this already? Your point?
> 
> Page 5



Moot point since I don't have daughters. I do have two sons though and have spoken to both of them about the need to treat their wives well and make them a priority.

One of the reasons I divorced their father was that he was a poor example of a hb. My hb now is a much better example. ....we are partners and spend a lot of time together. I hope my boys learn from this and I will continue to speak to them about treating their wife well. It's really all I can do. 

I do know that if they ever speak to their wife like their father spoke to me I will kick their a$$es myself. Probably helps that I did not tolerate it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cosmos

breeze said:


> The 70+ year old woman who literally walked out on her husband one day, seemingly out of the blue, though as neighbours we saw how miserable her life was with her husband, was certainly an eye opener for me. I've only ever seen these older people think that that's their lot in life and they live in their miserable marriage until the day they die. I guess in her mind she wanted to live the remainder of her days with some peace and contentment in her life. She took nothing and went to live in a caravan park by herself, and never spoke to her husband again.


My mother divorced my father when she was in her 70s and he was 80. My only regret was that she hadn't ditched him long before he'd managed to cause so much emotional damage and cause so many family rifts...


----------



## Starstarfish

> Ladies, what the **** is the matter with YOU that you keep on marrying this swine?


Complacency. And both men and women are guilty of it. 

Some women get married and feel like they no longer need to maintain physical attraction or being sexual with their husbands. Men call this "the bait and switch." And it will get untold sympathy, with people drilling down to specific frequency or a bucket list of acts they no longer perform, etc, etc. 

Men do the same thing. They are attentive and interested and motivated during the dating phase. They listen, they plan, they at least make good at seeming interested. 

And yet ... when women make complaints about the second problem, how is that handled? Rejection because of how things are worded as "offensive" and just "blaming."

Posts describing about how your wife does or does not reverse cowboy or whether or not she's "fat" or "athletic" compared to random examples of random women totally okay. Women expressing insight into how they feel about the emotional disconnect with their husbands - not okay. It's taking what women are saying and removing the power of them to give insight on themselves. It's mansplaning without actually offering any explanation. 

So, I'll bite, @Macho:



> But I'm offering myself up to anyone who can figure out what made me do it. What made all of us do it.


What made you do it?


----------



## OpenWindows

Starstarfish said:


> So, I'll bite, Macho:
> 
> 
> 
> What made you do it?


And what could your parents have taught you to prevent it?


----------



## Wolf1974

lifeistooshort said:


> Moot point since I don't have daughters. *I do have two sons though and have spoken to both of them about the need to treat their wives well and make them a priority.
> *
> One of the reasons I divorced their father was that he was a poor example of a hb. My hb now is a much better example. ....we are partners and spend a lot of time together. I hope my boys learn from this and I will continue to speak to them about treating their wife well. It's really all I can do.
> 
> I do know that if they ever speak to their wife like their father spoke to me I will kick their a$$es myself. Probably helps that I did not tolerate it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just to interject something here and maybe you already did this but I would include two more things to that list. One is to choose well. I am speaking from first hand knowledge here that if you choose poorly but treat your wife like a queen in an effort to make her happy and whole it's a game they will eventually loose. Second make sure they are treated well and that thier wives make them a priority. I agree that husbands should treat thier wives with love dignity and respect but I think too often men demand little of this in return because we are taught the "happy wife happy life". It's ok to love and give just make sure it's returned.


----------



## john117

It takes two to disconnect from each other. Much as we want to blame one side 100%, such examples are rare and usually due to external factors.

If I have an employee that is underperforming despite repeated discussions and performance reviews I have to start questioning my own skills as a team leader...


----------



## lifeistooshort

Wolf1974 said:


> Just to interject something here and maybe you already did this but I would include two more things to that list. One is to choose well. I am speaking from first hand knowledge here that if you choose poorly but treat your wife like a queen in an effort to make her happy and whole it's a game they will eventually loose. Second make sure they are treated well and that thier wives make them a priority. I agree that husbands should treat thier wives with love dignity and respect but I think too often men demand little of this in return because we are taught the "happy wife happy life". It's ok to love and give just make sure it's returned.


Yes, that is a great point. I have told them to pay attention to what kind of woman they're getting and what her values are as well as red flags but I will do more with this. 

I've also told them that they should have a number of things they love about her beyond that she's pretty. I believe this is where a lot of men fail.

I will spend more time discussing the balance of their needs vs their wives' needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

john117 said:


> It takes two to disconnect from each other. Much as we want to blame one side 100%, such examples are rare and usually due to external factors.
> 
> If I have an employee that is underperforming despite repeated discussions and performance reviews I have to start questioning my own skills as a team leader...


Don't agree. Having been a husband who bends over backwards to make the marriage go will only take you so far. In the end the more you bend in effort to accommodate can actually make things worse because your spouse can lose respect for you. Same can be said for a boss/employee relationship but I don't think they are comparable honestly. It takes two to make a marriag great but one person can willfully destroy a marriage from the inside if they are willing to.


----------



## Wolf1974

lifeistooshort said:


> Yes, that is a great point. I have told them to pay attention to what kind of woman they're getting and what her values are as well as red flags but I will do more with this.
> 
> I've also told them that they should have a number of things they love about her beyond that she's pretty. I believe this is where a lot of men fail.
> 
> I will spend more time discussing the balance of their needs vs their wives' needs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. Men are often pressure themselves to find the pretty rose and women the "security" that generally come from money. You hope that as both genders age they learn that things are more important than looks and a bankroll but unfortunately some will never learn. 

You sound wise to speak to your sons about these things. I wish I had that from my parents. Would have saved me years of heartache


----------



## Cosmos

Wolf1974 said:


> Don't agree. Having been a husband who bends over backwards to make the marriage go will only take you so far. In the end the more you bend in effort to accommodate can actually make things worse because your spouse can lose respect for you. Same can be said for a boss/employee relationship but I don't think they are comparable honestly. It takes two to make a marriag great but one person can willfully destroy a marriage from the inside if they are willing to.


I agree.

Also, one isn't usually emotionally invested in an employee.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Mike6211 said:


> But did they actually express their needs in a way that their husbands could understand? .....
> 
> ... ...
> 
> But did they try *effectively*? Which is ...
> 
> If it's hard for a W to work out how to "boil down the complexity of [her] needs into quantifiable actions", how much harder is it for her H to figure out the necessary actions if his wife's needs haven't been expressed beyond just saying (effectively) "make me happy"?!!
> 
> I'm not suggesting that H should just expect a to-do list handed to him on a plate. He needs 'game', he needs to know his Five Love Languages, he needs to make an effort. But he's not Prince Charming and he's not a mind-reader.



If you spend years saying what you need in several different ways and methods and he doesn't "understand" then it has nothing to do with the effectiveness.
No one is saying "make me happy". 


The problem is you ask and ask and ask for your needs to be met and by that point, even if they finally do it you have had to nag them into it and forced them to. That's not what we want. 

Think of a man wanting more sex from his wife. He doesn't want her to "fine! geez, if it means that d*mn much to you, I'll do it" after years of fighting about it. 
He wants her to WANT to meet his needs. He wants her to care enough about him to make an effort, to want him to be happy, to want to have a connection. 

That's the point where a lot of women just shut down and start the final stage of walking. Because they are at the point where nothing worked and in short of literally forcing him to do it (which we don't want) there is nothing else to try.


----------



## Adelais

MachoMcCoy said:


> I'm a push-away husband. I lost my wife. I will pay for that for the rest of my life. I don't want your pity. I don't care if you hate me. But I'm offering myself up to anyone who can figure out what made me do it. What made all of us do it.
> 
> My poison was emotional abuse. It shouldn't matter the cause, but abuse is the lowest of the low. Don't listen to me, slay me and move on.


So you recognize that you pushed your wife away using emotional abuse?

Eerie how you even come across as abusive and angry over the computer screen.

Are you "pushing" us away too? We don't even know you, and had no foreknowledge you would show up on this thread to "push" us away.

We didn't choose you, you chose this thread. You chose us. Rinse, repeat as far as your selective scorn for female posters on TAM goes.

Your wife did choose you. Did you hide your abuse from her in order to rope her in? When you began to push her away and emotionally abuse her, did she make excuses for it in her head until she had enough and walked? Are you bitter that she stayed around so long, "talking" and trying to persuade you to change?

No rinse, repeat for me. I don't like your tone. You're officially on "IGNORE."


----------



## john117

Wolf1974 said:


> Don't agree. Having been a husband who bends over backwards to make the marriage go will only take you so far. In the end the more you bend in effort to accommodate can actually make things worse because your spouse can lose respect for you. Same can be said for a boss/employee relationship but I don't think they are comparable honestly. It takes two to make a marriag great but one person can willfully destroy a marriage from the inside if they are willing to.


As a husband or team leader I must be clear and concise in my communications and make sure they are understood. As you said, one person can blow up the relationship regardless, and I agree, but you want to tell them that and make sure they understand the implications.


----------



## john117

Cosmos said:


> I agree.
> 
> Also, one isn't usually emotionally invested in an employee.


Not emotionally, but we are invested - it takes a good couple years to train someone to do the intricacies of the position. 

It saddens me to see that I have a closer connection with several people in my team that have worked with me for 5-7 years than my wife. With those people we know what's needed and avoid a lot of communication because we simply do what's needed. At home I have to explain twice, argue some...

That's yet another sign of a dead marriage regardless of emotional or other intimacy issues.


----------



## Wolf1974

john117 said:


> As a husband or team leader I must be clear and concise in my communications and make sure they are understood. As you said, one person can blow up the relationship regardless, and I agree, but you want to tell them that and make sure they understand the implications.


Well this I do agree with. If you have an unhappy spouse who states underhand they are unhappy but doesn't actually have clear and concise conversation with thier spouse about it then I would argue that communication never occurred. Hence the WAW. Not true in all case but some for sure.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

IMO the biggest difference is that spouses are equal, a boss and his employees are not. You can not tell your spouse what to do, how to do it and demand that they do their job. You have no authority over them.


----------



## Starstarfish

I think part of it might come from not encouraging a codependency attitude in young women. Where "good girls" are quiet and nice. Where women who express opinions are "b!+ches" but men who do it are "straightforward." A man who knows what he wants is "Alpha." When a woman has a strong feeling on anything questioning if she's "hormonal" and asking her to "settle down."

It's the casual day to day dismissal of women that encourages them to silence their opinions and needs for the good of the group. And that even when they try, they are told they are wrong or expressing it is offensive and triggering. Women are "needy."

Why do women marry men who dismiss their feelings and needs? Because we are taught it's normal.

Maybe we need to stop teaching people it's normal.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Even IF she is expressing herself like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYfr5FXjd7U
don't they eventually clue in at some point? Most people can watch that and think hey, she wants that dress. Even with not-so-great communication skills, you can get it. 

I learned in the first few years that subtly didn't work with H at all so if I am asking for something for Christmas I can not be like "I really liked that face scrub I got a couple months ago. I'm all out of it" I have to be like "I want you to buy me the Lush brand face scrub at the X store. It is $x. I wrote it down for you. Just walk in and give your note to the lady, she'll put it in the bag, then bring it home, I will give you wrapping paper for it and I want you to wrap it and put in under the tree" He also can't read body language, so if I am mad I have to literally say 'I am upset about X" I can't just sit and look upset because no matter how upset I look, he doesn't notice. 

But I've honestly always felt like his inability to understand the first statement and needing the second was a flaw is his design as a listener and communicator and not my own.

It's interesting because at my work it has always just been me and another woman, we recently added in a man for some of the times and we've noticed the same from him, can't read body language or subtle hints (like the person is wanting to leave the conversation or is no longer interested in what they are talking about) We can notice the subtle shifts, the looking away, that they are uncomfortable and want to sit down, that they want to leave, that they need to be pushed a little or back off entirely. Reading people is a big part of the job and I know that it's not the entire gender that has issues with it, some guys can do it just fine, so is it really a "man" thing or just a skill that some people don't have?


----------



## Mr The Other

Most of the problems in marriage are not heavily specific to either sex. But as a hetrosexual man, I will see women acting in destructive ways, but not men and will be a less aware of when I do them. It is generally the same for women. I think that is the cause of much of the sexism on the forum, which is ironically equal on both sides.



john117 said:


> As a husband or team leader I must be clear and concise in my communications and make sure they are understood. As you said, one person can blow up the relationship regardless, and I agree, but you want to tell them that and make sure they understand the implications.


Clearly, there are limits to the comparison. But I will roll with it anyway. Sometimes the best thing to do with an employee is to let them go, if you have tried everything you reasonably can to make it work. The difficulty might be that they can take half the business with them.


----------



## Adelais

john117 said:


> Not emotionally, but we are invested - it takes a good couple years to train someone to do the intricacies of the position.
> 
> It saddens me to see that I have a closer connection with several people in my team that have worked with me for 5-7 years than my wife. With those people we know what's needed and avoid a lot of communication because we simply do what's needed. At home I have to explain twice, argue some...
> 
> That's yet another sign of a dead marriage regardless of emotional or other intimacy issues.


But john, aren't you "invested" with your wife after so many years of marriage? She and you have many, many very intimate times, both good and bad in common. You have a marriage, not a job contract, which are very different levels of investment.

Although you say you have a closer connection with several people in your team after 5-7 years, you have not had the depth or variety of types of interactions with them as you have with your wife. They do not do your laundry, cook your food, smell your farts in bed, see you pick your teeth, share the joy you have in watching your children succeed, share tears over the birth of a grandchild, etc. The experiences with your coworkers are very specific, and predictable, with fewer expectations thus fewer stress and disappointments. Life with your wife is dynamic and filled with lots of history, aka "water under the bridge."

When you go home and have to explain something twice to your wife, and even get an argument over something that you believe is simple, it may be due to all the water under the bridge that is adding "noise" or dynamic to all interactions.

Comparing your interactions with long time coworkers to interactions with your wife is like comparing apples to oranges.

john, have you ever been in affair with one of your co-workers, even if is was a secret EA in your own head? What you said in your post almost sounds like a bit of the affair fog taking shape.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree. Men are often pressure themselves to find the pretty rose and women the "security" that generally come from money. You hope that as both genders age they learn that things are more important than looks and a bankroll but unfortunately some will never learn.
> 
> You sound wise to speak to your sons about these things. I wish I had that from my parents. Would have saved me years of heartache


When you marry for money you earn every penny.....

If you marry for a pretty rose that's all you're entitled to ask for because clearly nothing else was important, so if she turns out to be a poor partner that's your problem.

Sometimes you try to choose wisely and it doesn't work out, so there is a certain amount of risk, but we can do what we can to mitigate said risk. Ha ha, "mitigate risk" really is something an actuary would say 

My parents didn't speak to me about these things either, but I knew they were miserable and tried to take lessons regarding what not to do. I clearly didn't succeed with my first hb but I have tried very hard to evaluate what went wrong from both sides, and even though he was a d0uche I'm under no illusion that I was perfect.

I think at the end of the day we just weren't a good match, and I want my boys to learn from that.

They have asked about the divorce as they were 5 and 2 when it happened and I've told them that their dad and I weren't a good match but it was good that we tried because we got the two of them. That seems to make them happy.

Thank you for the kind words, I'm sure you'll also speak to your daughters if you haven't already about what to look for in a compatible match. And I firmly believe that women should be self sufficient, even if the decision is ultimately made that it would suit the family for her to be home and that's what she wants. I also think young women should be told that if they ultimately find that staying home isn't for them there is no shame in that.....many women feel pressured into this but are unhappy doing it. This will manifest in an unhappy marriage and a husband who has no idea what the problem is because he thinks she wants this and he's providing the opportunity for her. Not his fault, she just needs to feel free to decide that it's not for her.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Cosmos said:


> I agree.
> 
> Also, one isn't usually emotionally invested in an employee.


My boss doesn't bend over backwards for me, nor should he.

I however have been known to bend over backwards for him (figuratively speaking of course) because that's what you do as an employee.


----------



## turnera

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It's interesting because at my work it has always just been me and another woman, we recently added in a man for some of the times and we've noticed the same from him, can't read body language or subtle hints (like the person is wanting to leave the conversation or is no longer interested in what they are talking about) We can notice the subtle shifts, the looking away, that they are uncomfortable and want to sit down, that they want to leave, that they need to be pushed a little or back off entirely. Reading people is a big part of the job and I know that it's not the entire gender that has issues with it, some guys can do it just fine, so is it really a "man" thing or just a skill that some people don't have?


That's funny. My H is a salesman, and I've told him many times over the years that he isn't catching the clues people give. He's a Narcissist, so he NEEDS people to admire him. So he brags, nonstop. People don't mind hearing the first brag, but by the time you've bragged about 5 things, people just want to escape. But he never sees it, the eyes, the body shifting, the grimace...just last night at my brother's house, he brags about this thing (working with a celebrity) and people are like oh, wow. So he goes on to the next celebrity, and you can see them starting to go 'ok, stop now so we can go back to watching the game.' By the time he was still talking, and bragging, 10 minutes later, I had to go up to him and TELL him to stop. He had no clue. And he has no clue what they really think about him. He just can't read people.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Yep, I've had to moderate my H's conversations at times too. The people who know him well enough just think it's funny, just H being H, sometimes they'll make jokes "No wonder you're wife's so quiet, you don't even take a breath! How would she ever get a chance to speak?" But when I see someone obviously wanting out of the conversation I'll go in to save them. 

I always worry about him doing job interviews and meeting new people because he just doesn't read people well or know how to act when people aren't on the same page as he is. 

It's funny, H saw a "how narcissistic are you" quiz online, some of his friends were posting their numbers. 10%, 20%. He took it and was like 80% and that's the stuff he knows about himself/will admit. I would have "yes'ed" a couple more than he did for him. Aside from silly quizzes, he does show a lot of the signs but he'd never get himself diagnosed so it would be just a theory. He has before agreed with the definitions of it for himself but "doesn't think it's a bad thing"


----------



## ocotillo

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Reading people is a big part of the job and I know that it's not the entire gender that has issues with it, some guys can do it just fine, so is it really a "man" thing or just a skill that some people don't have?


There is a "gear" missing from some people's minds. -Crude analogy, but I don't know how else to put it.

My wife, as nice as she is, is missing it too. --Struggles with subtle humor, doesn't pick up on hints, doesn't know when a joke has gone too far, doesn't perceive it when the other person is upset, struggles with office politics, etc.


----------



## john117

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> But john, aren't you "invested" with your wife after so many years of marriage? She and you have many, many very intimate times, both good and bad in common. You have a marriage, not a job contract, which are very different levels of investment.
> 
> Although you say you have a closer connection with several people in your team after 5-7 years, you have not had the depth or variety of types of interactions with them as you have with your wife. They do not do your laundry, cook your food, smell your farts in bed, see you pick your teeth, share the joy you have in watching your children succeed, share tears over the birth of a grandchild, etc. The experiences with your coworkers are very specific, and predictable, with fewer expectations thus fewer stress and disappointments. Life with your wife is dynamic and filled with lots of history, aka "water under the bridge."
> 
> When you go home and have to explain something twice to your wife, and even get an argument over something that you believe is simple, it may be due to all the water under the bridge that is adding "noise" or dynamic to all interactions.
> 
> Comparing your interactions with long time coworkers to interactions with your wife is like comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> john, have you ever been in affair with one of your co-workers, even if is was a secret EA in your own head? What you said in your post almost sounds like a bit of the affair fog taking shape.


It's not apples and oranges as much as it is tangerines and cumquats. 

At work communication is crucial because there is a lot to do and few resources to do it with. So if I have to explain something verbally multiple times we waste time. We simply know. These are mostly guys, so no EA there . I do have interns every year and a lot are female. No EA or PA with them (no rules about intern moms  )

At home I face communication issues. Wifey and I are rarely on the same page, and she will argue and argue, lose patience, and simply not "get" what I'm doing. On basic stuff like lifting a mattress, not unicorny emotional crap...

I think I mentioned the famous Samsung Note 2 Broken Screen Debacle of 2015. I often sense she opposes my idea simply by default, which makes no sense in many cases. It's when you argue every little bit that it gets tiring. At the end I invariably convince her but that's a pretty fvcked up dynamic.


----------



## Adelais

john117 said:


> I do have interns every year and a lot are female. No EA or PA with them (no rules about intern moms  )


I don't get it. But I don't get a lot of jokes. 



john117 said:


> At home I face communication issues. Wifey and I are *rarely on the same page*, and she will *argue and argue, lose patience, and simply not "get" what I'm doing.* On basic stuff like lifting a mattress, not unicorny emotional crap...
> 
> I think I mentioned the famous Samsung Note 2 Broken Screen Debacle of 2015. I often sense *she opposes my idea simply by default,* which makes no sense in many cases. It's when you *argue every little bit that it gets tiring.* At the end I invariably convince her but that's a pretty fvcked up dynamic.


The bolded may be due to all the water under the bridge. Hard to make the water go back. We're working on that in our own marriage. In my case it is a lack of trust on my side because of his poor choices (EA, porn, finance, lying.) In his case....I don't know. I'm trying to stop reading his mind and let him figure it out and tell me.


----------



## EleGirl

Mike6211 said:


> But did they actually express their needs in a way that their husbands could understand? .....
> 
> ... ...
> 
> But did they try *effectively*? Which is ...
> 
> If it's hard for a W to work out how to "boil down the complexity of [her] needs into quantifiable actions", how much harder is it for her H to figure out the necessary actions if his wife's needs haven't been expressed beyond just saying (effectively) "make me happy"?!!
> 
> I'm not suggesting that H should just expect a to-do list handed to him on a plate. He needs 'game', he needs to know his Five Love Languages, he needs to make an effort. But he's not Prince Charming and he's not a mind-reader.


Few women are just saying things to their husbands like "MAKE ME HAPPY". 

What we are talking about on this thread is when women give very clear explainations of what the problem is. For example.

"I work 60 hour week just as you do. It's unfair to me that all of the housework, outside work, etc. is left up to me. You need to take responsibility for about 50% of this. Please tell me which chores you are going to take respopnslibty for."

In the above, what I'm unhappy about is clear "It's unfair to me that all of the housework, outside work, etc. is left up to me." I'm over burdened.

I've suggested a solution... he takes responsibility for half the work to run a home and family.

Do not insult us by making it sound like women are just running around harassing their husbands with things like "MAKE ME HAPPY".

We have all be very clear on this thread that this is NOT what we did in our marriages.
.


----------



## john117

There's an intern mom that ranks high in my list of future, ehem, candidates . Intern now works full time in our department sooooo  We will see.


----------



## EleGirl

Ynot said:


> This whole thread is predicated on being able to fix something beyond your abilities.


Who is it that finds fixing something is beyond their abilities?


----------



## lifeistooshort

EleGirl said:


> Few women are just saying things to their husbands like "MAKE ME HAPPY".
> 
> What we are talking about on this thread is when women give very clear explainations of what the problem is. For example.
> 
> "I work 60 hour week just as you do. It's unfair to me that all of the housework, outside work, etc. is left up to me. You need to take responsibility for about 50% of this. Please tell me which chores you are going to take respopnslibty for."
> 
> In the above, what I'm unhappy about is clear "It's unfair to me that all of the housework, outside work, etc. is left up to me." I'm over burdened.
> 
> I've suggested a solution... he takes responsibility for half the work to run a home and family.
> 
> Do not insult us by making it sound like women are just running around harassing their husbands with things like "MAKE ME HAPPY".
> 
> We have all be very clear on this thread that this is NOT what we did in our marriages.
> .


I think some men feel like running a house is a woman's job and it is her that WANTS to work outside the home, so if it's her that she wants this why should he pick up slack at home?

You probably have it when the wife works at what hb considers a lesser job as well, ie one that pays substantially less or one that's less stressful. 

And there are still those that grew up watching their mother cater to their father and wonder why feminazis have ruined this right for them. 

The ones who don't think like this already do their fair share or more relative to how much they work vs how much wife works.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

lifeistooshort said:


> Yes, that is a great point. I have told them to pay attention to what kind of woman they're getting and what her values are as well as red flags but I will do more with this.
> 
> I've also told them that they should have a number of things they love about her beyond that she's pretty. I believe this is where a lot of men fail.
> 
> I will spend more time discussing the balance of their needs vs their wives' needs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife text me "I love you"

My reply I love you just as much

Point is my first relationship requirement is an equal level of emotion

We both require equality in all aspects of our marriage.

A least now that I've fixed my sh!t'

55


----------



## tech-novelist

SurpriseMyself said:


> It makes me think of this developer at work. He doesn't pay attention when we are talking about the business requirements and offering technical solutions, never asks any questions or offer up ideas, then goes back to his desk and has to have another developer explain it all to him again as well as show him where to update the code and how. He won't be at the company much longer if he doesn't make some significant improvements. His output is probably half that of the others.


It's nice to know there are companies where that developer attitude isn't favored by management.

Personally, I've always gotten in a lot more trouble by trying to find out exactly what the project is supposed to entail. In the last project I was assigned to at my last job, there was exactly one person who was claimed to understand the project, and we couldn't talk to him because he was still buried in the *previous *disastrous project. Once I heard that, I knew the project was doomed.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

The more I think about it, the more I think that compatibility in communication style is critically important. You don't need to have the same style, but at least your style and your spouses style should allow for successful resolution of issues. I think of my aunt and uncle - two of the nicest people you ever want to meet. Seriously. But neither one could say to the other that something was missing. When the kids left, my aunt had an affair and that ended the marriage. 

In my communication, I prefer clear, concise, and direct when dealing with issues, but I can also be gentle, and usually start this way, but if that is unsuccessful I go more direct. I say what I mean and mean what I say. My STBXH is a classic avoider; he dreads direct conversation. To him, it's like torture. He always found me too much. I always found his deflection and avoidance frustrating. In my marriage, gentle didn't work, tears and open, honest, from the heart didn't work, and clear and direct didn't work. Finally, I just gave up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Adelais

john117 said:


> There's an intern mom that ranks high in my list of future, ehem, candidates . Intern now works full time in our department sooooo  We will see.


That is what I was asking about when I asked if you were having any secret EA's in your head. (I think I asked it, or did I just think it.)

You're in the fog now, john. That is why your marriage looks worse and worse. You are not a WAW husband. You are in the category of a wayward.


----------



## ocotillo

SurpriseMyself said:


> The more I think about it, the more I think that compatibility in communication style is critically important.


I agree.

This isn't the first time I've thought that most of of us would get along really, really well at a party, because deep down, most of us think alike.

But for some strange reason, that's not the people we chose to marry....


----------



## john117

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> That is what I was asking about when I asked if you were having any secret EA's in your head. (I think I asked it, or did I just think it.)
> 
> You're in the fog now, john. That is why your marriage looks worse and worse. You are not a WAW husband. You are in the category of a wayward.


I'm afraid you have transposed the horse and the buggy. 

I'm not having any EA's, tho some of the Cards Against Humanity combinations produced during off hours interns & friends get togethers are a bit too risque for this here peanut gallery...

Given how bad my marriage has been in the last few years, any suitable woman from People Of Walmart would be an improvement. No fog needed.


----------



## john117

ocotillo said:


> I agree.
> 
> This isn't the first time I've thought that most of of us would get along really, really well at a party, because deep down, most of us think alike.
> 
> But for some strange reason, that's not the people we chose to marry....


Start digging deeper - party level acquaintances rarely get into the level of detail needed for more meaningful relationships. 

Not to mention but people do change...


----------



## jld

ocotillo said:


> I agree.
> 
> This isn't the first time I've thought that most of of us would get along really, really well at a party, because deep down, most of us think alike.
> 
> But for some strange reason, that's not the people we chose to marry....


What would you say is missing in your wife, ocotillo?


----------



## EleGirl

technovelist said:


> It's nice to know there are companies where that developer attitude isn't favored by management.
> 
> Personally, I've always gotten in a lot more trouble by trying to find out exactly what the project is supposed to entail. In the last project I was assigned to at my last job, there was exactly one person who was claimed to understand the project, and we couldn't talk to him because he was still buried in the *previous *disastrous project. Once I heard that, I knew the project was doomed.


Strange. Where I work, well in any of the places I've worked, the first thing we do is to define requirements in a document and get buy in by all major players. Then we develop the design, and again get buy in from all the major players.

How can anyone develop a project/product and not know what it is they are developing?

.


----------



## MattMatt

ocotillo said:


> There is a "gear" missing from some people's minds. -Crude analogy, but I don't know how else to put it.
> 
> My wife, as nice as she is, is missing it too. --Struggles with subtle humor, doesn't pick up on hints, doesn't know when a joke has gone too far, doesn't perceive it when the other person is upset, struggles with office politics, etc.


Have you considered the possibility she might have an ASD?


----------



## ocotillo

jld said:


> What would you say is missing in your wife, ocotillo?


--Not sure I can give a good answer to that, JLD. I've always written it off to culture. My wife is full blooded Norwegian and they have a reputation, even among Europeans as being the most thick skinned people on the planet. In Norway, they laugh at us here in the U.S. and say that our favorite pastime is being offended. 

That is a stark contrast to cultures who bend over backwards to observe the gentle give and take of saving face. A prominent one here were I live is Hispanic culture. If a Hispanic person (Regardless of gender) likes you, they will form a diminutive of your name to show it. (e.g. If your name is, "Tom", you will become, "Tommy") 

Nuances like that are completely lost, not just on my wife, but on her entire family.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

lifeistooshort said:


> Moot point since I don't have daughters. I do have two sons though and have spoken to both of them about the need to treat their wives well and make them a priority.
> 
> One of the reasons I divorced their father was that he was a poor example of a hb. My hb now is a much better example. ....we are partners and spend a lot of time together. I hope my boys learn from this and I will continue to speak to them about treating their wife well. It's really all I can do.
> 
> I do know that if they ever speak to their wife like their father spoke to me I will kick their a$$es myself. Probably helps that I did not tolerate it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you have ANY idea how probable it is that one of your boys will turn into a monster like me? Even with them not spending any more time with their, the damage has been done.

Maybe you should listen to me instead of ridiculing me.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> So you recognize that you pushed your wife away using emotional abuse?
> 
> Eerie how you even come across as abusive and angry over the computer screen.
> 
> Are you "pushing" us away too? We don't even know you, and had no foreknowledge you would show up on this thread to "push" us away.
> 
> We didn't choose you, you chose this thread. You chose us. Rinse, repeat as far as your selective scorn for female posters on TAM goes.
> 
> Your wife did choose you. Did you hide your abuse from her in order to rope her in? When you began to push her away and emotionally abuse her, did she make excuses for it in her head until she had enough and walked? Are you bitter that she stayed around so long, "talking" and trying to persuade you to change?
> 
> No rinse, repeat for me. I don't like your tone. You're officially on "IGNORE."



Are you fock1ng kidding me? I'm naked in this thread trying to do good. And all you can say is "I'm glad she shot you down you miserable Pr1ck"?

I can't wait until your daughter marries someone like me. Or worse. There are a lot worse. And if you hev more than one daughter, neice, etc., it is almost GUARANTEED she will.

If you have more than one son or nephew, he WILL become me. Or worse.


----------



## tech-novelist

EleGirl said:


> Strange. Where I work, well in any of the places I've worked, the first thing we do is to define requirements in a document and get buy in by all major players. Then we develop the design, and again get buy in from all the major players.
> 
> How can anyone develop a project/product and not know what it is they are developing?


It's easy when management is a bunch of incompetent morons who think that "Agile development" means you don't have to know what you are doing.

Well, it's not easy for the developers, of course, but it *is *easy for management. Until everything collapses, that is.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

May god have mercy on us.

I'm out for a final time. 

And NOBODY ELSE in ALL OF THESE PAGES said, "I did this. I understand. I LIVED it from the a$$holes side. Talk to me".

And now you lost me.

:banghead:


----------



## tech-novelist

MachoMcCoy said:


> Are you fock1ng kidding me? I'm naked in this thread trying to do good. And all you can say is "I'm glad she shot you down you miserable Pr1ck"?
> 
> I can't wait until your daughter marries someone like me. Or worse. There are a lot worse. And if you hev more than one daughter, neice, etc., it is almost GUARANTEED she will.
> 
> If you have more than one son or nephew, he WILL become me. Or worse.


Please start a new thread about your experience. I think it could be invaluable for those who haven't hit the brick wall yet.


----------



## tech-novelist

MachoMcCoy said:


> May god have mercy on us.
> 
> I'm out for a final time.
> 
> And NOBODY ELSE in ALL OF THESE PAGES said, "I did this. I understand. I LIVED it from the a$$holes side. Talk to me".
> 
> And now you lost me.
> 
> :banghead:


 @MachoMcCoy: I haven't lived it on either side, but I know others have. Please don't quit trying to explain it.


----------



## EleGirl

MachoMcCoy said:


> May god have mercy on us.
> 
> I'm out for a final time.
> 
> And NOBODY ELSE in ALL OF THESE PAGES said, "I did this. I understand. I LIVED it from the a$$holes side. Talk to me".
> 
> And now you lost me.
> 
> :banghead:


Hey, we would love to know more about what why you did what you did and if you are doing differently now.

But your way of writing is mostly to ridicule people. So it's not clear what you are saying. It's not that people don't want to hear what you have to say, it's that we cannot figure out what you are saying.


.


----------



## john117

EleGirl said:


> Strange. Where I work, well in any of the places I've worked, the first thing we do is to define requirements in a document and get buy in by all major players. Then we develop the design, and again get buy in from all the major players.
> 
> How can anyone develop a project/product and not know what it is they are developing?
> 
> .


Pardon me when I :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:...

I spend a lot of time developing proof of concept, demo, research type stuff, and occasionally products you can buy at your local retailers (consumer electronics). Requirements are rarely cast in stone. My part is generally the UX, that is, the user experience. I do a lot of analytical work to try to conjure a better UX , but at the end of the day if the chief engineer says the button goes here, it goes here.


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> Pardon me when I :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:...
> 
> I spend a lot of time developing proof of concept, demo, research type stuff, and occasionally products you can buy at your local retailers (consumer electronics). Requirements are rarely cast in stone. My part is generally the UX, that is, the user experience. I do a lot of analytical work to try to conjure a better UX , but at the end of the day if the chief engineer says the button goes here, it goes here.


Of course requirements are not cast in stone. That's why we have change management. But ya gotta have a good idea of what's wanted before you start developing.

(end of thread jack)


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

MachoMcCoy said:


> Are you fock1ng kidding me? I'm naked in this thread trying to do good. And all you can say is "I'm glad she shot you down you miserable Pr1ck"?
> 
> I can't wait until your daughter marries someone like me. Or worse. There are a lot worse. And if you hev more than one daughter, neice, etc., it is almost GUARANTEED she will.
> 
> If you have more than one son or nephew, he WILL become me. Or worse.


This is ridiculous. Emotionally abusive men are not the norm. They can be taught to avoid them/being them by having good self-confidence, good understanding of a marriage and partnership, basic respect for themselves and others. Emotionally abusive men are just older bullies, they lack confidence and respect in themselves and need to take it out on others to feel better. They are weak. 

Even with just the clueless husband, it's mostly my H's upbringing that caused his issues, not his gender. Outside of mental issues it is most often something they are taught or not taught. Learned behaviors. I was not taught how to find a good partner. IMO it's something that a lot of people forget about teaching.

I have a few brothers and all are emotionally capable and able to listen/meet the needs of their wives. 
Now that I understand what kinds of things to look out for, I can teach my children to avoid certain behaviors and people.


----------



## john117

EleGirl said:


> Of course requirements are not cast in stone. That's why we have change management. But ya gotta have a good idea of what's wanted before you start developing.
> 
> (end of thread jack)


We use this one....

https://www.atlassian.com/landing/jirajr/


----------



## lifeistooshort

MachoMcCoy said:


> Do you have ANY idea how probable it is that one of your boys will turn into a monster like me? Even with them not spending any more time with their, the damage has been done.
> 
> Maybe you should listen to me instead of ridiculing me.


Dude, i have no idea what you're talking about. I never ridiculed you, I addressed your question. 

Get some therapy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> We use this one....
> 
> https://www.atlassian.com/landing/jirajr/


Oh lord we use Jira now. I hate it.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

Ynot said:


> This whole thread is predicated on being able to fix something beyond your abilities.


Yup. Some of the advice for men is doable for me. Other things, if my wife needs them, I'm simply not good enough for her. If she leaves over those I will blame neither her nor myself. I do need to watch myself, as reading this thread for too long can put me in a bad mood that my wife doesn't appreciate.


----------



## lifeistooshort

technovelist said:


> @MachoMcCoy: I haven't lived it on either side, but I know others have. Please don't quit trying to explain it.


The problem is that he doesn't explain anything. He bashes himself and makes generalizations.

Perhaps if he quit with the name calling and explained what happened in his marriage and what his background is it could be helpful. 

The only thing I get from him is that he thinks he's a miserable a$$hole and all women fall out of love and leave. That doesn't tell me anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

ExiledBayStater said:


> Yup. Some of the advice for men is doable for me. Other things, if my wife needs them, I'm simply not good enough for her. If she leaves over those I will blame neither her nor myself. I do need to watch myself, as reading this thread for too long can put me in a bad mood that my wife doesn't appreciate.


What do you think is not doable?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ExiledBayStater said:


> Yup. Some of the advice for men is doable for me. Other things, if my wife needs them, I'm simply not good enough for her. If she leaves over those I will blame neither her nor myself. I do need to watch myself, as reading this thread for too long can put me in a bad mood that my wife doesn't appreciate.


Interesting, what things? If you don't mind me asking. I have been told that myself "Look, if I'm not good enough for you maybe you should just say it" or that he thinks I'm not understanding who he is, but I don't feel like I am asking outside his abilities. 

Without spending so much time you get into a funk  I am interested in this side. Not as a judgement but honestly want to know what it means and what kinds of things can be viewed this way.


----------



## Mr The Other

MachoMcCoy said:


> Are you fock1ng kidding me? I'm naked in this thread trying to do good. And all you can say is "I'm glad she shot you down you miserable Pr1ck"?
> 
> I can't wait until your daughter marries someone like me. Or worse. There are a lot worse. And if you hev more than one daughter, neice, etc., it is almost GUARANTEED she will.
> 
> If you have more than one son or nephew, he WILL become me. Or worse.


There are plenty of decent men. No real shortage at all. I am happy if you have learnt from your mistakes, but do not pin it on other men - it is on you. 

And learn not to get touchy.


----------



## john117

Watch the video, it's hilarious.

See, the whole point in small, "intimate" teams is that you streamline communication. Which is how marriage SHOULD be. In my current marital state we hear each other but we rarely communicate. In one ear, out the other.


----------



## tech-novelist

lifeistooshort said:


> The problem is that he doesn't explain anything. He bashes himself and makes generalizations.
> 
> Perhaps if he quit with the name calling and explained what happened in his marriage and what his background is it could be helpful.
> 
> The only thing I get from him is that he thinks he's a miserable a$$hole and all women fall out of love and leave. That doesn't tell me anything.


Yes, I know he doesn't have the answer. But he does seem to have a better handle on the problem than a lot of people. He just needs to try to explain it more clearly.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

lifeistooshort said:


> My boss doesn't bend over backwards for me, nor should he.
> 
> I however have been known to bend over backwards for him (figuratively speaking of course) because that's what you do as an employee.


My boss does bend over backwards for me and for the dozen or so other people who report to him. That's just his leadership philosophy. Only a few of us are aware of how much he does for us.


----------



## tech-novelist

ExiledBayStater said:


> My boss does bend over backwards for me and for the dozen or so other people who report to him. That's just his leadership philosophy. Only a few of us are aware of how much he does for us.


When I was a manager, many years ago, my approach was simple: ask my employees what was keeping them from doing their jobs efficiently, then fix that.

We got a project that was late back on schedule.


----------



## turnera

MachoMcCoy said:


> May god have mercy on us.
> 
> I'm out for a final time.
> 
> And NOBODY ELSE in ALL OF THESE PAGES said, "I did this. I understand. I LIVED it from the a$$holes side. Talk to me".
> 
> And now you lost me.
> 
> :banghead:


Macho, I think you gave valuable, prescient advice. Try not to take people online so seriously, ok?


----------



## ExiledBayStater

EleGirl said:


> What do you think is not doable?





SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Interesting, what things? If you don't mind me asking. I have been told that myself "Look, if I'm not good enough for you maybe you should just say it" or that he thinks I'm not understanding who he is, but I don't feel like I am asking outside his abilities.
> 
> Without spending so much time you get into a funk  I am interested in this side. Not as a judgement but honestly want to know what it means and what kinds of things can be viewed this way.


Doing enough domestic chores to keep her content, periodic maintenance that I may or may not have the time and skill to do, affording date nights; and the truly challenging part for me, doing all of that with a smile and having the presence to give my wife the chance to talk about her day. Any one or two of those things I would think was doable. When it is all laid out, it's jaw-dropping for me.


----------



## john117

I do the above except date nights (kinda pointless) and add the occasion where I have to play professor and teach her this or that esoteric topic from my field of expertise... It's not jawdropping by any stretch of the imagination.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

john117 said:


> I do the above except date nights (kinda pointless) and add the occasion where I have to play professor and teach her this or that esoteric topic from my field of expertise... It's not jawdropping by any stretch of the imagination.


I guess you're a better man than I am.


----------



## john117

ExiledBayStater said:


> I guess you're a better man than I am.


For all the good it has done to me...

I can be manipulative, mental chess playing, and downright cruel if I want to be. But usually I'm your typical nice guy. 

Today I reminded my wife once again of my plans to depart. As expected she went into a mini rage about being the servant in the house, doing all the work, etc all while I'm sitting in the media room watching college bowl games and playing with the cat.

Guilty as charged. I don't care about the house anymore. I don't care about the marriage any more. The "better man" John would be upstairs helping. Pfeh. I've helped enough as it is and a lot of good that has done.


----------



## EleGirl

ExiledBayStater said:


> Doing enough domestic chores to keep her content, periodic maintenance that I may or may not have the time and skill to do, affording date nights; and the truly challenging part for me, doing all of that with a smile and having the presence to give my wife the chance to talk about her day. Any one or two of those things I would think was doable. When it is all laid out, it's jaw-dropping for me.


That's jaw dropping?

Does your wife work outside the home?

Dates really don't have to cost a lot. A nice long walk along the river is a really good date. Cost? $0

If a woman works and can do all that. Why cannot a man do it?


----------



## ExiledBayStater

EleGirl said:


> That's jaw dropping?
> 
> Does your wife work outside the home?
> 
> Dates really don't have to cost a lot. A nice long walk along the river is a really good date. Cost? $0
> 
> If a woman works and can do all that. Why cannot a man do it?


She does. She also claims now that I do enough at home, but previously she said I didn't.

I'll do it. But I don't want anybody to ask me to smile.


----------



## EleGirl

ExiledBayStater said:


> She does. She also claims now that I do enough at home, but previously she said I didn't.
> 
> I'll do it. But I don't want anybody to ask me to smile.


Is she as pissy as you when she does household chores, goes on dates, etc?

ETA: It's your house too. So why shouldn't you be doing about half of all the chores?


----------



## ExiledBayStater

EleGirl said:


> Is she as pissy as you when she does household chores, goes on dates, etc?


Not usually.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ExiledBayStater said:


> Doing enough domestic chores to keep her content, periodic maintenance that I may or may not have the time and skill to do, affording date nights; and the truly challenging part for me, doing all of that with a smile and having the presence to give my wife the chance to talk about her day. Any one or two of those things I would think was doable. When it is all laid out, it's jaw-dropping for me.


IMO it's important to put your giving in the right basket so you aren't wasting time doing what she's not needing. So once you know her emotional needs, you can focus your effort where it counts and not worry so much about other things. 
The Most Important Emotional Needs
You don't have to do it all, just what matters to her. What do you think her emotional needs are?

The biggest thing, IMO, is time together. Set a goal of 15 hours a week of alone time, date nights don't have to cost money. Put a blanket on the living room floor, get some wine and something to eat and put on netflix. Or just go for a walk, a hike. 

How many hours do you work? 

Fixing things- seriously check youtube. I learned how to change the burner under my ceramic top stove, change a furnace part, replace a faucet all from youtube. Pretty much everything has a step-by-step instruction video AND it's always cheaper to DIY. Do it together, projects and repairs can be bonding. We do projects together, tore out and rebuilt our kitchen, rebuilt cars, kids rooms.
As for time, that would depend on your work hours and whatnot.


----------



## EleGirl

ExiledBayStater said:


> Not usually.


It's your house too. So why shouldn't you be doing about half of all the chores?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Doing chore pissy is almost as bad as not doing them for me. I can not stand if H is cleaning something and acting all upset about it. I usually tell him to just sit down since I'd rather do it myself than have to deal with it but respect level goes WAY down.

I'm not asking for whistling while he works or even a smile but there's no need to act like a child about it. And if my kids act like a brat about their own chores, they get more. It's work, it has to be done, just do it and don't complain about it.


----------



## farsidejunky

This sh!t is not easy. 

My first marriage ended to a WAW. And I DESERVED it. Complacency, addiction to porn, self centeredness, and emotional immaturity...I DESERVED it.

My current marriage was on the verge, and by the grace of God and some helpful posters on TAM, it is saved and pretty damn good again. We are back to laughing together; I appreciate her strength of morals; we share gratitude for what we do for each other; we play in the bedroom; we remembered why we decided to become life partners. 

But here is the rub.

In order for my marriage to reach this point, there are things that I have to do that I simply did not expect to have to do. Managing the finances because she is unable; emotionally carrying the relationship about 90% of the time; watching her emotional immaturity come to play at work and then coming home to complain about it nearly every night for over 6 months; helping to carry her responsibilities in her over abundance of animals; accepting that she may spend several weeks withdrawing from me in order to self soothe from emotional flooding. 

My wife would be unable to sustain herself well on her own. She is simply unable. A large reason for my withdrawal was for all of this negativity, combined with me being in a ridiculously stressful job, and addiction on my end, so I was not perfect either.

I had reached a point where I was tired of carrying her along with the stress of my job. I have to carry my wife. It is the only way she can truly succeed. This sound misogynistic, but she just simply cannot or will not do certain things. There are still times where I start to build resentment over having to carry her, because I expect her to be an adult and self sufficient. For our relationship to thrive, I have to temper that expectation. And you know what? I asked her to marry me, so I have no pot to p!ss in for blaming her for any of it.

What did it all boil down to? Complacency and avoidance, which is exactly what it sounds like each of the husbands of the WAW are doing. That is completely on them, and shame on them (and me) for allowing it. We OWE our wives better than that. 

However... It took two to arrive at that dynamic. Is the complacency because the husband completely lost hope in something in the WAW, yet they are stubbornly adhering to their vows? I think this is the point that @MachoMcCoy is trying to drive home to everyone is that somewhere, somehow, something that the WAW did or has done has contributed (please note I said CONTRIBUTE, not CAUSE; HUGE difference) to that complacency or withdrawal in the dynamic.

This thread has spent an inordinate amount of time blaming these husbands, but as memory serves me (I am sure I missed some and I apologize in advance) very little time with introspection from the WAW, with the exception of Turnera who has repeatedly blamed herself. 

Those who do not learn from their history are doomed to repeat it.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

EleGirl said:


> It's your house too. So why shouldn't you be doing about half of all the chores?


I never said I shouldn't. But in all honesty, sometimes I think maybe I'm just not cut out for family life and I should have stayed single and childless forever.

I don't really mind it so much now as when the additional workload comes with the new baby.

I do what I can. She'll take it or leave it.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Doing chore pissy is almost as bad as not doing them for me. I can not stand if H is cleaning something and acting all upset about it. I usually tell him to just sit down since I'd rather do it myself than have to deal with it but respect level goes WAY down.
> 
> I'm not asking for whistling while he works or even a smile but there's no need to act like a child about it. And if my kids act like a brat about their own chores, they get more. It's work, it has to be done, just do it and don't complain about it.


I prefer to do chores while she's out of the room, better still out of the house. Orders of magnitude easier that way.

I'm off the thread again. I'm starting to see problems where there may not be any.


----------



## EleGirl

farsidejunky said:


> This sh!t is not easy.
> 
> My first marriage ended to a WAW. And I DESERVED it. Complacency, addiction to porn, self centeredness, and emotional immaturity...I DESERVED it.
> 
> .....................
> 
> This thread has spent an inordinate amount of time blaming these husbands, but as memory serves me (I am sure I missed some and I apologize in advance) very little time with introspection from the WAW, with the exception of Turnera who has repeatedly blamed herself.
> 
> Those who do not learn from their history are doomed to repeat it.


To get an idea of your point of view. What did your first wife do cause you to behave in the way you did?


----------



## Adelais

ExiledBayStater said:


> But in all honesty, sometimes I think maybe I'm just not cut out for family life and I should have stayed single and childless forever.
> 
> I don't really mind it so much now as when the additional workload comes with the new baby.


It's too late to go back on that now. You either man up, or you get a divorce now.



ExiledBayStater said:


> I do what I want to do. She'll take it or leave it.


Are you setting the stage for a WAW so early in your marriage? If you don't want a WAW, you are going to have to find your selfless core, and let it grow. I can promise you that your wife is already doing that while the baby is growing inside her, keeping her awake at night, giving her indigestion, pains of all kinds, changing her body etc. And when that baby is born your wife will probably give even more to the baby and your well being, forgetting about herself.


----------



## farsidejunky

EleGirl said:


> To get an idea of your point of view. What did your first wife do cause you to behave in the way you did?


*Excessive GNO's

*Controlling things from furniture, to what went on the walls, to how and where money was spent, to how and where we went out; she out earned me by 60% because I was still new to the Army and acted accordingly

*Depression


----------



## PieceOfSky

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It's interesting because at my work it has always just been me and another woman, we recently added in a man for some of the times and we've noticed the same from him, can't read body language or subtle hints (like the person is wanting to leave the conversation or is no longer interested in what they are talking about) We can notice the subtle shifts, the looking away, that they are uncomfortable and want to sit down, that they want to leave, that they need to be pushed a little or back off entirely. Reading people is a big part of the job and I know that it's not the entire gender that has issues with it, some guys can do it just fine, so is it really a "man" thing or just a skill that some people don't have?




You seem like a thoughtful, intelligent, and sensitive person. That you are sincerely wondering if such a deficit is strictly a "man thing" suggests to me spending your years with your husband has (and I mean this out of concern and respect) distorted what you feel is reasonable to expect from or find in members of the male sex.



I've known men and women who are sensitive and intuitive, empathetic, aware. And I have run into some who are not. 



My MIL, I've noticed in recent years, misses many cues/clues in conversations; I think my wife has commented on it too.



Another person (male, but it is a male dominated profession) is a bit of a caricature of the type you described, and it didn't take long after starting to work here for others to notice his apparent complete lack of awareness of the state of the one he is talking to. He's genuinely a nice guy, and I figure he is just wired differently than 99% of the others here...and, have learned to just keep typing away as he talks on and on long after the initial point of conversing is past, or sometimes i just get up and say "Oh, I've got to go..." and walk away and go get a drink, etc.



Nice guy, probably born that way...But, he is quite the exception IME. Memorable as one or two others in my 25+ year career.


----------



## john117

farsidejunky said:


> My wife would be unable to sustain herself well on her own. She is simply unable.


In this case, and assuming she's cognizant of the crucial tidbit above, she could not be a WAW for all the tea in China. Self preservation etc.

My wife is sort of like this. High functioning in a very narrow part of life and a basket case overall. Yet she does not know it. So she's not WAW-ing anyvtine soon. But she also is unable to read the tea leaves about me WAH-ing 

Your wife owned up to her part of the problems, you on yours, and everything went well. Yet at some point you'll realize one person can't carry the relationship. What you do after that is another story. 

I feel sorry I helped create this monster. Now I have to dispatch it in a humane way... 

Bourbon time


----------



## farsidejunky

john117 said:


> In this case, and assuming she's cognizant of the crucial tidbit above, she could not be a WAW for all the tea in China. Self preservation etc.
> 
> My wife is sort of like this. High functioning in a very narrow part of life and a basket case overall. Yet she does not know it. So she's not WAW-ing anyvtine soon. But she also is unable to read the tea leaves about me WAH-ing
> 
> Your wife owned up to her part of the problems, you on yours, and everything went well. Yet at some point you'll realize one person can't carry the relationship. What you do after that is another story.
> 
> I feel sorry I helped create this monster. Now I have to dispatch it in a humane way...
> 
> Bourbon time


Not so true, John. She is stubborn to a fault, and would cut off her nose to spite her face in her attempt to show the world she could do it, even if it meant not doing it well.


----------



## john117

farsidejunky said:


> Not so true, John. She is stubborn to a fault, and would cut off her nose to spite her face in her attempt to show the world she could do it, even if it meant not doing it well.


Self preservation is a lot more powerful than we think. She may act in the prescribed way for minor things but at some point reality kicks in and she self corrects.

The above could be proven true with a psyops test or two, of course. When she's acting stubborn simply act like your old self and see what happens. If she falls apart and reverts to her old self as well chances are you're right. But if she acts confused or hurt yet does not escalate further, its more of a well tuned self preservation system kicking in.

Only true NotNormalPeople will consistently act against their self interests for a prolonged period of time and think nothing of it.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

OpenWindows said:


> So what I learned from this, is that I need to be louder and more insistent about my needs, instead of giving up when the fight gets me nowhere. And if a man doesn't actually WANT to hear me, I'm gone.


More talk. Only louder. Good luck in your next marriage as well.

Talk does not work. Men do not hear it. You all KNOW it yet think more talk will help. How is that? 



OpenWindows said:


> I was SO HAPPY when I started dating again and realized I didn't need that hammer any more. Finding someone who wanted to hear me changed everything!


And you don't see this as part of the problem? Hey WAW's? Did you all marry men who seemed perfect while you were "dating", but then they changed?

Thought so.

You might want to rethink your success. You got rid of one a-hole. There are MILLIONS more. And I'll bet each and every one will "listen" while you're dating. Kind of like your abusive husband did before he "changed".



Cosmos said:


> When that emotional connection is so missing in a relationship that a W feels she is not being heard, it truly is only a matter of time before the relationship completely disintegrates... That feeling of sadness, dissatisfaction and abject loneliness can only be endured for so long before the desperate need to escape kicks in. By the time it does, all feeling has gone...


Right. A WAW. We get it. We all seem to understand it. We're trying to place BLAME in this thread though. Please pay attention.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I think it's a lot more common than people think. IMO So many men don't notice their wife is in the WAW stage until sex stops. Then they want to fix sex trying to talk her into or pressuring her to have sex with a man she has no connection with and has put a wall up between.


Yes. You are on to us. It's all about the sex. 

Yet I get ridiculed for MY opinion. This is the danger of this forum. People post nonsense like this with NO CLUE what they are talking about, but people will buy into it.



turnera said:


> It's not the actual things like that that cause women to withdraw. It's the fact that they KNOW things bother us and still choose not to adjust; OUR feelings just aren't important enough. It's a constant, daily insult.


I probably respect your opinion more than anybody's on this site. But PLEASE stop trying to read intent into a man's actions. I did not CHOOSE not to adjust. My wifes feelings were VERY important to me. But I was broken. I made mistakes. I realize you all want me taken out and SHOT, but DO NOT TELL ME HOW I FELT ABOUT MY WIFE!! 

I died the day I realized my wife checked out of my marriage. Is that not enough for all of you? How much more do I have to pay?


----------



## AliceA

It's not all about you Macho


----------



## MachoMcCoy

OpenWindows said:


> My interpretation was that my needs were not a priority to him


Your interpretation is wrong. He didn't UNDERSTAND your needs. Do you hear what you are saying? "I am a woman. A far different creature than anything you can ever imagine. But you had BETTER understand all of my needs or I'm gone". 





IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I may be inventing my own definition for the WAW, but I believe she leaves for no one except for herself. In fact, she will probably take some time and enjoy her independence while rediscovering who she is, and how to find her own happiness.
> 
> If she leaves for someone, she no longer falls into the category of WAW. She falls under the category of WW.



You do understand that a WAW is created long before a woman physically "leaves" a marriage, right? There are probably 1 million WAW's in this country ALONE where the wife has not only NOT physically left the marriage, but the dumb-a$$ husband doesnt even know she checked out yet.

Physically "leaving" the marriage has nothing to do with WAW's.


----------



## Mr The Other

MachoMcCoy said:


> Your interpretation is wrong. He didn't UNDERSTAND your needs. Do you hear what you are saying? "I am a woman. A far different creature than anything you can ever imagine. But you had BETTER understand all of my needs or I'm gone".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do understand that a WAW is created long before a woman physically "leaves" a marriage, right? There are probably 1 million WAW's in this country ALONE where the wife has not only NOT physically left the marriage, but the dumb-a$$ husband doesnt even know she checked out yet.
> 
> Physically "leaving" the marriage has nothing to do with WAW's.


I am not sure all cases are as similar as the impression you give.


----------



## PieceOfSky

MachoMcCoy,



What do you propose?


----------



## Starstarfish

> I realize you all want me taken out and SHOT


That's a scary combo of self-punishment and projection. 



> Your interpretation is wrong. He didn't UNDERSTAND your needs. Do you hear what you are saying? "I am a woman. A far different creature than anything you can ever imagine. But you had BETTER understand all of my needs or I'm gone".


At least one man on this thread said "I'm going to do what I want, take it or leave it." So this projection that poor men just can't understand the strange creatures that are women doesn't really come across. Some clearly just don't care.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Talk does not work. Men do not hear it. You all KNOW it yet think more talk will help. How is that?

Communicating with your spouse _should _work and many men can listen just fine. 
In a healthy marriage you should be able to express your needs and have them met. When that isn't working, the marriage is not working. Eventually it will fail if things are not sorted out.

Learn to listen if you want to maintain a marriage. You can't just cop out and blame your gender. If your wife/partner talks- listen. 

You're wife leaving is not ALL WAWs. Every one has their own specific reasons and unmet needs. 

To learn to avoid the situation you need to learn how to meet your _specific _partners _specific _needs.


----------



## jld

@farsidejunky, did you not give your wife an ultimatum two years ago, to choose between you and her animals?

And she tearfully packed a bag, and left with her animals?

Doesn't that indicate she is willing to manage on her own?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> @farsidejunky, did you not give your wife an ultimatum two years ago, to choose between you and her animals?
> 
> And she tearfully packed a bag, and left with her animals?
> 
> Doesn't that indicate she is willing to manage on her own?


Not exactly. It was a choice between me and the _latest_ animal, which was adopted without my consent. It was also the catalyst that led to me quitting drinking, porn, and demanding that we either get better or end our marriage. And shame on me- I blinked. This was early in the process. If that were to happen again, I would not blink. I was insecure at the time, and doubted my self worth. Never again. 

Now on to your point. As you are well aware based on internal discussions, my wife cannot balance her checking account and credit card accounts. I bailed her out of nearly $11K in debt in 2015, most of which was credit cards. Over $400 of it was in late and overdraft fees on said accounts. I took over finances completely at that point.

She will get by no matter what she does, I am sure. And perhaps she would improve simply out of necessity. But she would struggle mightily when you combine that with the responsibilities of parenting, taking care of animals, and her tendency to need to withdraw due to being overwhelmed.

That was in January of 2014. Interestingly enough, in May of 2014, she offered to get rid of some of the animals if that is what I wanted.

@jld can you tell me why you wanted to draw attention to that particular part of my story?


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Not exactly. It was a choice between me and the _latest_ animal, which was adopted without my consent. It was also the catalyst that led to me quitting drinking, porn, and demanding that we either get better or end our marriage. And shame on me- I blinked. This was early in the process. If that were to happen again, I would not blink. I was insecure at the time, and doubted my self worth. Never again.
> 
> Now on to your point. As you are well aware based on internal discussions, my wife cannot balance her checking account and credit card accounts. I bailed her out of nearly $11K in debt in 2015, most of which was credit cards. Over $400 of it was in late and overdraft fees on said accounts. I took over finances completely at that point.
> 
> She will get by no matter what she does, I am sure. And perhaps she would improve simply out of necessity. But she would struggle mightily when you combine that with the responsibilities of parenting, taking care of animals, and her tendency to need to withdraw due to being overwhelmed.
> 
> @jld can you tell me why you wanted to draw attention to that particular part of my story?


Didn't you say earlier that she cannot get along without you? 

And yet, when it was you or her animals on the line, she not only verbally agreed, but actually took action, on behalf of her animals.

Whether that action would be sustainable or not would perhaps be questionable, though.


----------



## Starstarfish

I'm guessing because of the implication that only women give ultimatums by another poster.


----------



## farsidejunky

I clearly gave two ultimatums in that week.

The first was either me or the latest animal.

The second was that we either got better or ended it.

I have zero problems with an ultimatum, as long as it is meant. That probably does not hold much water when I caved on the animal...

But again, I was much less secure in myself and much less resolute than I am now.


----------



## Ynot

EleGirl said:


> Who is it that finds fixing something is beyond their abilities?


Men and women. If fixing it was within their abilities they wouldn't be having this discussion at all. One or the other would have had the ability to communicate their needs effectively enough and the other would have listened and thus the discussion about WAWs would be taking place. I really think that most people are simply doing the that they can. The problem arises when that best isn't good enough for their spouse. This whole thread is a useless exercise of could haves and should haves. The fact is they didn't because they didn't know any better


----------



## EleGirl

Ynot said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who is it that finds fixing something is beyond their abilities?
> 
> 
> 
> Men and women. If fixing it was within their abilities they wouldn't be having this discussion at all. One or the other would have had the ability to communicate their needs effectively enough and the other would have listened and thus the discussion about WAWs would be taking place. I really think that most people are simply doing the that they can. The problem arises when that best isn't good enough for their spouse. This whole thread is a useless exercise of could haves and should haves. The fact is they didn't because they didn't know any better
Click to expand...

I disagree that this thread is a useless exercise of could haves and should haves.

People can learn. People can do better. That is what this thread is about. It is about what people can do to prevent a spouse from walking away over something that could have been done differently and/or fixed. And what a person can do to keep from themselves becoming a WAW/S.

The best solution I know to it is for a couple to read “Love Busters” and “His Needs, Her Needs”, do the work the books lay out, and then make revisiting it on a regular basis because Love Busters and needs change over time. Plus, it could help a couple from becoming complacent.


----------



## Cosmos

MachoMcCoy said:


> More talk. Only louder. Good luck in your next marriage as well.
> 
> Talk does not work. Men do not hear it. You all KNOW it yet think more talk will help. How is that?
> 
> 
> 
> And you don't see this as part of the problem? Hey WAW's? Did you all marry men who seemed perfect while you were "dating", but then they changed?
> 
> Thought so.
> 
> You might want to rethink your success. You got rid of one a-hole. There are MILLIONS more. And I'll bet each and every one will "listen" while you're dating. Kind of like your abusive husband did before he "changed".
> 
> 
> 
> *Right. A WAW. We get it. We all seem to understand it. We're trying to place BLAME in this thread though. Please pay attention.
> *
> 
> 
> Yes. You are on to us. It's all about the sex.
> 
> Yet I get ridiculed for MY opinion. This is the danger of this forum. People post nonsense like this with NO CLUE what they are talking about, but people will buy into it.
> 
> 
> 
> I probably respect your opinion more than anybody's on this site. But PLEASE stop trying to read intent into a man's actions. I did not CHOOSE not to adjust. My wifes feelings were VERY important to me. But I was broken. I made mistakes. I realize you all want me taken out and SHOT, but DO NOT TELL ME HOW I FELT ABOUT MY WIFE!!
> 
> I died the day I realized my wife checked out of my marriage. Is that not enough for all of you? How much more do I have to pay?


In order to understand why there are WAW, it's helpful to take a look at what might contribute towards the _cause / effect_. Exploring the subject isn't merely an exercise in blame, but more akin to a forensic investigation. 'Facts' have to be established.

However, you might consider backing off from this thread. _ It isn't about you_, and if you don't like what's being discussed here, rather stop reading than venting your sarcasm and misplaced anger at posters here. I for one am_ not_ liking your attitude.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

MachoMcCoy said:


> How much more do I have to pay?


Read the book "Iron John"


----------



## Tommy518

Interestingly, I was reading this post when my GF came down (I'm sleeping on the couch, by choice, because we had an argument) to discuss our communication style and the problem of her telling me that something's bothering her, usually related to something I'm doing, not doing, or doing wrong, and me reacting to it defensively because I think she is blaming me and wants me to fix it. 

She told me in those instances that she just wants me to listen and that she isn't expecting me to fix it, so I shouldn't get defensive. I asked her if she would have been satisfied in this instance if I just acknowledged the problem and left it at that and she said she didn't know, but we're going to try that next time. To be honest, I don't think she'll accept me just agreeing it's a problem and not offering a solution that likely involved me capitulating, but we'll see. 

We men are hard wired to fix problems when presented and just acknowledging that the problem is there without offering a solution or getting defensive because we see it as a personal attack is very hard for us. We assume the following:

?Woman unhappy
?Woman tells man it's because of something he is or isn't doing.
?Man better fix it so woman can be happy again.

That's pretty much it. We assume that just listening will never be enough.


----------



## EleGirl

Tommy518 said:


> Interestingly, I was reading this post when my GF came down (I'm sleeping on the couch, by choice, because we had an argument) to discuss our communication style and the problem of her telling me that something's bothering her, usually related to something I'm doing, not doing, or doing wrong, and me reacting to it defensively because I think she is blaming me and wants me to fix it.
> 
> She told me in those instances that she just wants me to listen and that she isn't expecting me to fix it, so I shouldn't get defensive. I asked her if she would have been satisfied in this instance if I just acknowledged the problem and left it at that and she said she didn't know, but we're going to try that next time. To be honest, I don't think she'll accept me just agreeing it's a problem and not offering a solution that likely involved me capitulating, but we'll see.
> 
> We men are hard wired to fix problems when presented and just acknowledging that the problem is there without offering a solution or getting defensive because we see it as a personal attack is very hard for us. We assume the following:
> 
> ?Woman unhappy
> ?Woman tells man it's because of something he is or isn't doing.
> ?Man better fix it so woman can be happy again.
> 
> That's pretty much it. We assume that just listening will never be enough.


Ok, so this is the problem in our marriage. The way to solve this is for you two do talk about it. She should be able to tell you whether she wants you to just listen, to offer advice but not fix it, or to fix it. That is part of her responsibility to be clear when she talks to you. 

You now know not to assume that she wants you to fix things that she brings up to you. 

You did not say what it was you two were talking/arguing about so that's a generic response that will get you further along in handling this sort of thing.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

PieceOfSky said:


> MachoMcCoy,
> 
> 
> 
> What do you propose?


For starters, stop calling me a monster when I say "I was wrong. I made horrible mistakes. I not only ruined MY life and the life of the single person most important to me, but I put some SERIOUS hurt on the family I helped create. And I think what I learned puts me in a unique position to help others."

And then hi-five each other when you call me a cretin and move on the the next poster you're going to point a finger at. Are you denying that's how this thread is going? 

I can GUARANTEE I know more about this subject that every single poster on this thread that has pointed a finger at the other side and said, "No, it's YOUR fault". How do I know?

1 - The NONSENSE that has been posted on 50+ pages here. A thread that was created ostensibly to find a cause and cure, but started with finger pointing from the very first post. And then made VERY few coherent points as the battle waged.

2 - The perfect storm of events that led to my a-ha! moment. I came here trying to figure out what was happening in my marriage. I read about lack of love and intimacy. I read about WAW's. I read about affairs. I read it ALL and none of it was making sense. Then my wife uttered 7 words that brought it all together. In one HORRIBLE moment I understood WAW's. I understood ILYBINILWY. I understood that it is actually possible for a wife to live with a husband she hates, yet he feels he is the luckiest man on the planet.

"And the stupid idiot was "shocked" when I told him I was done".

You have no fu*king CLUE what that statement means. I know that for a FACT.

I'm definitely out for good now. Carry on with the blame game. PM me to let me know when it's all been fixed. I'll be waiting with baited breath.


----------



## Ynot

EleGirl said:


> I disagree that this thread is a useless exercise of could haves and should haves.
> 
> People can learn. People can do better. That is what this thread is about. It is about what people can do to prevent a spouse from walking away over something that could have been done differently and/or fixed. And what a person can do to keep from themselves becoming a WAW/S.
> 
> The best solution I know to it is for a couple to read “Love Busters” and “His Needs, Her Needs”, do the work the books lay out, and then make revisiting it on a regular basis because Love Busters and needs change over time. Plus, it could help a couple from becoming complacent.


That is all good except that most people are already acting in the best way they know how to ie doing the best they can. With the exception of a truly sick person I don't think any of us set out to hurt our ex-spouses. But none of this would apply to them anyways 
The fact is that people change and yes we can communicate those changes and our spouses may listen to those concerns. They may choose to accommodate them or they may not recognize them and do nothing about Or they may be incapable of meeting those new needs. There is nothing wrong with recognizing and learning from those turning points in our lives but this thread is based on the assumption that every marriage can be saved and we are all capable of preventing it from falling apart. That is the useless exercise of engaging in what ifs, shoul haves and shoul haves.
Looking back at my own marriage I recognize there were turning points. But at the time I acted as I did with the best intentions. I could have acted differently. Perhaps I shoul have acted differently. But I didn't and there is no changing that. And the truth is I doubt it would have changed a thing. I wasn't capable of being what she wanted and she wasn't capable of being what I wanted.
We talk about marriage as a unique thing. But it just one point in the spectrum of relationships. The vast majority of all relationship 'fail'. So the idea that we can prevent the inevitable is useless. That is not to say that the failure of every marriage is inevitable. But to say that every marriage will inevitably run its course ether successfully or not


----------



## Cosmos

Ynot said:


> That is all good except that most people are already acting in the best way they know how to ie doing the best they can. With the exception of a truly sick person I don't think any of us set out to hurt our ex-spouses. But none of this would apply to them anyways
> The fact is that people change and yes we can communicate those changes and our spouses may listen to those concerns. They may choose to accommodate them or they may not recognize them and do nothing about Or they may be incapable of meeting those new needs. There is nothing wrong with recognizing and learning from those turning points in our lives but *this thread is based on the assumption that every marriage can be saved and we are all capable of preventing it from falling apart. That is the useless exercise of engaging in what ifs, shoul haves and shoul haves.*
> Looking back at my own marriage I recognize there were turning points. But at the time I acted as I did with the best intentions. I could have acted differently. Perhaps I shoul have acted differently. But I didn't and there is no changing that. And the truth is I doubt it would have changed a thing. I wasn't capable of being what she wanted and she wasn't capable of being what I wanted.


I don't believe that every marriage can (or even should) be saved, and obviously it isn't always the one being walked away from who is at fault, either. But my take on the purpose of this thread is that the OP wanted to share why_ she_ walked away from _her_ marriage, and others have contributed to the thread by sharing similar anecdotes about their own relationships.

We don't have to participate in this or any other thread on TAM, but personally I've learned some useful things in this thread that have the potential to help me be a better partner.


----------



## Satya

I for one do not believe that the original post was making any assumptions about a "magic recipe" for preventing WAW or WAH. I think that it was a thread started by one person having been in a particular place, with a particular experience, and was sharing thoughts on what might have prevented a very serious and emotionally rocky challenge that many relationships/marriages can and do face.

What the thread has evolved into is a place for many posters with their own personal experiences to share those as well, some on the premise of doing it as a "take it as it is" bit of info, and some with very strong feelings of knowing or being right about what they believe the reasons are.

Like all posts, you (personally) either take away something of value or you find it not so valuable. There's really quite a bit of personal projection going on by some posters, but honestly I would come to expect no less with a subject such as this.

Since I'm a woman that was a near WAW, I know from my perspective that there are many things I did wrong and there were many things that my ex H did that were wrong. No one in this day and age dares to do the same to me as he did and maintain any sort of contact or relationship with me, because I no longer allow others to treat me this way. That's the part I owned and improved upon. The parts that my ex H should have owned are the disrespectful behaviors that well and truly cut me deeply, and which were also met with his indifference, laughter, mocking, and stonewalling. Poor victim me? No, by staying in the relationship longer than I needed to, I am partially at fault for my own unhappiness. I truly believe that my requests were not crazy, over and above, or demanding. They were offered with great doses of patience and understanding. Sometimes I'd go for weeks without saying anything because I didn't want to be told I was just crazy or worrying about nothing. It really is very frustrating to be told that your concerns aren't worth having even a 5 minute discussion over. 

This is a battle that neither side WINS, both actually LOSES something and hopefully in the process one or both partners actually GAINS introspection and insight into the ways that partners either show respect or (sometimes unknowingly or unintentionally) disrespect that can erode the very foundations of what should be an otherwise deep and unshakable bond. Both partners need to be responsible for their 50%, and failure from either to recognize, nurture, and encourage communication in regards to each others' needs - and then FOLLOW THROUGH with real effort and demonstrable care for those needs - will inevitably lead to a disintegration of aforementioned bond, one that is very challenging, sometimes near impossible to repair.


----------



## jld

@Satya, your ex left you to have a sex change operation, correct? 

How could you have ever been responsible in any way for that relationship not working out? 

He should never have married you in the first place, knowing all the internal conflicts he was experiencing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Satya

jld said:


> @Satya, your ex left you to have a sex change operation, correct?
> 
> How could you have ever been responsible in any way for that relationship not working out?
> 
> He should never have married you in the first place, knowing all the internal conflicts he was experiencing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We had other issues prior to me finding out about his desire for change. That knowledge only came to me in the last few months of our living together. Much of the issues between us had to do with the lack of respect that was growing for each other. My lack of respect came from his inability (resistance?) to actually listen to and acknowledge my needs. His lack of respect likely came from my inability to just "let my feelings go" and leave him to conduct himself however he wanted. I'm just taking a guess there, however. I'll never know for sure, because he was notoriously poor at openly communicating with me.


----------



## jld

Satya said:


> We had other issues prior to me finding out about his desire for change. That knowledge only came to me in the last few months of our living together. Much of the issues between us had to do with the lack of respect that was growing for each other. My lack of respect came from his inability (resistance?) to actually listen to and acknowledge my needs. His lack of respect likely came from my inability to just "let my feelings go" and leave him to conduct himself however he wanted. I'm just taking a guess there, however. I'll never know for sure, because he was notoriously poor at openly communicating with me.


Well, the way I see it, his internal conflict over his sexuality was a relationship killer from the beginning. You were set up to fail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

ExiledBayStater said:


> Doing enough domestic chores to keep her content, periodic maintenance that I may or may not have the time and skill to do, affording date nights; and the truly challenging part for me, doing all of that with a smile and having the presence to give my wife the chance to talk about her day. Any one or two of those things I would think was doable. When it is all laid out, it's jaw-dropping for me.


That is really fascinating. So, if you were single, you'd pay to get the chores done, I assume. You'd pay for maintenance. You'd take women out on date nights, your treat. And then you'd go home so you wouldn't have to listen to a woman mindlessly go on and on about her day. Correct?

I guess you should be single; you sound just like my never-married 58-year-old BIL.


----------



## ExiledBayStater

turnera said:


> That is really fascinating. So, if you were single, you'd pay to get the chores done, I assume. You'd pay for maintenance. You'd take women out on date nights, your treat. And then you'd go home so you wouldn't have to listen to a woman mindlessly go on and on about her day. Correct?
> 
> I guess you should be single; you sound just like my never-married 58-year-old BIL.


I had no idea that revealing insecurities raised by this thread would invite so many contemptful responses.

Now, this mean selfish husband is going over to Family and Parenting to get recommendations for miniblinds for the nursery.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Tommy518 said:


> Interestingly, I was reading this post when my GF came down (I'm sleeping on the couch, by choice, because we had an argument) to discuss our communication style and the problem of her telling me that something's bothering her, usually related to something I'm doing, not doing, or doing wrong, and me reacting to it defensively because I think she is blaming me and wants me to fix it. She told me in those instances that she just wants me to listen and that she isn't expecting me to fix it, so I shouldn't get defensive. I asked her if she would have been satisfied in this instance if I just acknowledged the problem and left it at that and she said she didn't know, but we're going to try that next time. To be honest, I don't think she'll accept me just agreeing it's a problem and not offering a solution that likely involved me capitulating, but we'll see.


It's likely more the defensiveness that is bothering her IMO

See, if you still don't stop/start/fix the behavior she is complaining about, she'll feel you aren't listening to her. If she's told you something bothers her, don't do it. 

So don't be defensive, listen and acknowledge but still stop doing/start doing whatever it is that she's upset about. 

You don't need to offer a solution right then, just show it with actions going forward. 

Why not just a "I'm sorry it made you feel X when I did Y, I won't do it again"


----------



## john117

ExiledBayStater said:


> Now, this mean selfish husband is going over to Family and Parenting to get recommendations for miniblinds for the nursery.


Levolor 1 inch blinds or cellular shades worked well for us and are quite baby and cat-proof


----------



## turnera

MachoMcCoy said:


> I probably respect your opinion more than anybody's on this site. But PLEASE stop trying to read intent into a man's actions. I did not CHOOSE not to adjust. My wifes feelings were VERY important to me. But I was broken. I made mistakes. I realize you all want me taken out and SHOT, but DO NOT TELL ME HOW I FELT ABOUT MY WIFE!!


Macho, you seem pretty introspective, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I assume you're quite aware that you wear your 'badness' as a badge of honor, right? What do you get from that?

As for your telling me not to tell you what you think, let me try to rephrase it. Men HEAR what their wives are hearing but for whatever reason, choose not to take it seriously enough to CHANGE. That could come from FOO training (women are maids), being broken (I matter more, or whatever other reason your brain is telling you), stubbornness (no woman will tell me what to do), not taking her seriously (ah, don't worry your pretty little head), or any manner of any other reasons.

But the end result is the same: the woman is disrespected, tries to make a go of it anyway, hurting a little more each day, until she finally looks at him and thinks, God, I wish he'd just go away and leave me alone.


----------



## Tommy518

EleGirl said:


> Ok, so this is the problem in our marriage. The way to solve this is for you two do talk about it. She should be able to tell you whether she wants you to just listen, to offer advice but not fix it, or to fix it. That is part of her responsibility to be clear when she talks to you.
> 
> You now know not to assume that she wants you to fix things that she brings up to you.
> 
> You did not say what it was you two were talking/arguing about so that's a generic response that will get you further along in handling this sort of thing.


I don't want to hijack the thread and I did create a separate thread about this, but it had to do with how I interact with her 9 year old boy in that he constantly wants to cuddle with me, give me hugs and generally demands attention that I think is too much and makes me uncomfortable. He's like this most of the time now but worse last night because he has strep and coughing a lot (her daughter has it this morning now too) and I'd like not to catch it. I just wasn't brought up being intimate with my dad like that, I wasn't that way with my own son and so I'm not very comfortable with him that way. I'm not even sure he's that way with his own father, as from what I know of him, I'm not sure he'd permit it. Kind of a guys guy.

Anyway, that's what started it. I'm sure the fact that I was tired from an eight hour drive back from Chicago and that we'd both had a few drinks by then didn't help. I tried to explain and got defensive and she couldn't understand my point of view and things got tense. We've agreed now to try talking these things out without necessarily trying to fix them at the time and to not have same discussions when drinking. Hopefully that helps.


----------



## turnera

farsidejunky said:


> Not exactly. It was a choice between me and the _latest_ animal, which was adopted without my consent.


In my SIL's case, my brother adopting his dead uncle's cat was the straw that broke the camel's back for her - their sixth cat, I think. Which she told him she didn't want him to adopt. And he did anyway. Not listening to her. And she was a dog person.

Granted, she was a WW. And the uncle's family was going to put the cat to sleep and cremate it to put with the uncle's body, so in a way, he rescued the cat, so I see the point. (and it's a wonderful cat!) 

But the point is, HER opinions didn't matter. For years and years, they did things the way HE wanted because he assumed that HIS beliefs and choices were the right ones. She changed everything about herself to go with his way. Until a guy from her past showed up and she said 'what the hell am I doing here?'


----------



## Adelais

Tommy518 said:


> We men are hard wired to fix problems when presented and just acknowledging that the problem is there without offering a solution or getting defensive because we see it as a personal attack is very hard for us. We assume the following:
> 
> ?Woman unhappy
> ?Woman tells man it's because of something he is or isn't doing.
> ?Man better fix it so woman can be happy again.


Perhaps you are right, that is how a communicative non conflict avoidant man handles marital problems.

However, for conflict avoidant/passive aggressive men it goes this way:

-Woman unhappy
-Woman tells man it's because something that he is or isn't doing.
-man feels personally attacked which brings up feelings he cannot handle, so he turns it around on the woman and says there is actually no problem, but that it is all in woman's head and therefore she is the problem and man gets up and leaves.
-man comes back later like nothing happened, no conversation, no apologies, while woman is thinking "What??????"

round two, three, and so forth:
-Woman is unhappy about something having to do with the husband. 
-Woman doesn't want man to turn the problem onto her and leave like he has done in the future, so she tries to stuff her feelings, pray, submit, etc.
-woman does this for a few of the issues......until she explodes.
-husband again blames her, but now has more ammo because she is not "nice" but an angry woman.
-husband leaves.
-husband comes back later as if nothing happened. Wife is seething.

Last rounds:
-wife has given up. Nothing has changed, and she doesn't expect it to, so she just lives without hope.
-she daydreams of the day she doesn't have to share a life with husband, when she will not have to deal with all the issues husband refuses to acknowledge, much less help resolve.


----------



## turnera

Tommy518 said:


> Interestingly, I was reading this post when my GF came down (I'm sleeping on the couch, by choice, because we had an argument) to discuss our communication style and the problem of her telling me that something's bothering her, usually related to something I'm doing, not doing, or doing wrong, and me reacting to it defensively because I think she is blaming me and wants me to fix it.
> 
> She told me in those instances that she just wants me to listen and that she isn't expecting me to fix it, so I shouldn't get defensive. I asked her if she would have been satisfied in this instance if I just acknowledged the problem and left it at that and she said she didn't know, but we're going to try that next time. To be honest, I don't think she'll accept me just agreeing it's a problem and not offering a solution that likely involved me capitulating, but we'll see.
> 
> We men are hard wired to fix problems when presented and just acknowledging that the problem is there without offering a solution or getting defensive because we see it as a personal attack is very hard for us. We assume the following:
> 
> ?Woman unhappy
> ?Woman tells man it's because of something he is or isn't doing.
> ?Man better fix it so woman can be happy again.
> 
> That's pretty much it. We assume that just listening will never be enough.


It's good that your communication is safe enough that she can tell you this. I think what she really wants is for you two to then - together - brainstorm a solution.
"So, if you say it bugs you that I leave the toilet seat up, what do you think would be best for you?"
"I think you should always leave it down." 
"But that means that it's always ME who has to accommodate. I don't think that's fair."
"You're right, that's not fair. What if we agree to always leave the LID down so that both of us are using equal work to get to what we need?"
"That sounds like a perfect compromise. Thanks for talking it out with me."

Of course, then you have to DO what you agreed to do. What many women hate is when the man agrees and then forgets. After our last fight, he PROMISED me he would pick up his socks from the living room floor. SWORE to me. There are currently TWO pairs here, which I have picked up and put on his side of the couch, so he'll either sit on them or put them away. And yes, I AM going to bring it up. AGAIN. Until I just give up and move out.


----------



## jld

ExiledBayStater said:


> I had no idea that revealing insecurities raised by this thread would invite so many contemptful responses.
> 
> Now, this mean selfish husband is going over to Family and Parenting to get recommendations for miniblinds for the nursery.


I recommend skipping the nursery and just keeping the baby in your bed. Much easier if your wife is nursing, ime.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Ynot said:


> That is all good except that most people are already acting in the* best way they know how* to ie doing the best they can.


Ah but that's the rub, isn't it? THEY DON'T KNOW HOW, so it behooves them to find OUT how. There are many many ways people can learn and change and grow. There are many valuable testimonies on this thread alone that people could recognize going on and reading about how people wish it would have turned out - and then trying it out at home.

If what you KNOW HOW to do is making you unhappy, _learn a better way_! And if your spouse refuses to even consider doing things a better way, well, you're gonna get a WAS.


----------



## turnera

ExiledBayStater said:


> I had no idea that revealing insecurities raised by this thread would invite so many contemptful responses.
> 
> Now, this mean selfish husband is going over to Family and Parenting to get recommendations for miniblinds for the nursery.


My post was in no way contemptful. I DID say fascinating, yes? It just opened my eyes because that's exactly what I hear my BIL say. He literally says he doesn't date anyone seriously because he doesn't want to have to listen to the woman talk about her (unimportant to him) stuff. IMO, he's smart for recognizing it and not subjecting him and some poor woman to a miserable relationship. I used to feel sorry for him, but I've come to see he just doesn't 'fit' long-term relationships. And I'm happy for him.


----------



## turnera

Tommy518 said:


> I don't want to hijack the thread and I did create a separate thread about this, but it had to do with how I interact with her 9 year old boy in that he constantly wants to cuddle with me, give me hugs and generally demands attention that I think is too much and makes me uncomfortable. He's like this most of the time now but worse last night because he has strep and coughing a lot (her daughter has it this morning now too) and I'd like not to catch it. I just wasn't brought up being intimate with my dad like that, I wasn't that way with my own son and so I'm not very comfortable with him that way. I'm not even sure he's that way with his own father, as from what I know of him, I'm not sure he'd permit it. Kind of a guys guy.


What does she say when you tell her this? What solution have you come up with?


----------



## SurpriseMyself

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It's likely more the defensiveness that is bothering her IMO
> 
> See, if you still don't stop/start/fix the behavior she is complaining about, she'll feel you aren't listening to her. If she's told you something bothers her, don't do it.
> 
> So don't be defensive, listen and acknowledge but still stop doing/start doing whatever it is that she's upset about.
> 
> You don't need to offer a solution right then, just show it with actions going forward.
> 
> Why not just a "I'm sorry it made you feel X when I did Y, I won't do it again"


I didn't expect him to change every little thing I didn't care for. If he would have at least engaged in the conversation and said, "yes, I'll work on that; I understand why that bothers you" or "no, I'm not going to change that; I'm drawing a line there," then we could have at least had an understanding. I may not have liked the "no" response, but at least then I could ask myself if that thing was something I could learn to accept as is.

What my STBXH did was say not say "Yes" but rather, "I'll try." But he really had no intention of trying. Then, when he didn't follow through, it eroded trust.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tommy518

turnera said:


> It's good that your communication is safe enough that she can tell you this. I think what she really wants is for you two to then - together - brainstorm a solution.
> "So, if you say it bugs you that I leave the toilet seat up, what do you think would be best for you?"
> "I think you should always leave it down."
> "But that means that it's always ME who has to accommodate. I don't think that's fair."
> "You're right, that's not fair. What if we agree to always leave the LID down so that both of us are using equal work to get to what we need?"
> "That sounds like a perfect compromise. Thanks for talking it out with me."
> 
> Of course, then you have to DO what you agreed to do. What many women hate is when the man agrees and then forgets. After our last fight, he PROMISED me he would pick up his socks from the living room floor. SWORE to me. There are currently TWO pairs here, which I have picked up and put on his side of the couch, so he'll either sit on them or put them away. And yes, I AM going to bring it up. AGAIN. Until I just give up and move out.


Generally, we're pretty good at working those sorts of things out, realizing that we're both flawed and might forget or need reminding sometimes. She's very fair in that way. Sometimes, though, the issue is complicated and involves my gut response to things that others do that I have no control over. While I can try to control my responses, they're built into my personality and I can't necessarily force myself to suddenly change how I respond or the internal feelings or comfort level I have, if that makes sense. Sometimes this requires a deeper and more collaborative look for a solution and might require others to adjust their behavior or expectations of me. That's where things can get sticky. That's where we can get defensive if we think the other person is expecting us to simply make an adjustment (in ourselves) and fix it. For that reason, maybe it's best to lay out expectations first and make it clear that any solution will require both parties to change in some way, whether behavior or expectations.


----------



## turnera

There's a great, easy solution for that. I call it the State-of-the-Marriage meeting, or in your case, the State-of-the-Relationship meeting. Once a month (or whatever works), you sit down for about 15 minutes and just talk. How things are going, what you would change, what hasn't worked, what you'd wish for. You both agree to go into it without getting defensive but rather with a goal of having a safe, informative talk, so you can learn and grow - together. If you know you're gonna have a chance to bring things up in a regular meeting, it lets you just enjoy each other the rest of the time. One of MY biggest issues is that I never get to have such talks because my spouse just won't hear it. So resentment kicks in. If you both know you'll be heard, much better.

And have you read His Needs Her Needs yet? Best book out there for keeping things going well.


----------



## Thundarr

ExiledBayStater said:


> Doing enough domestic chores to keep her content, periodic maintenance that I may or may not have the time and skill to do, affording date nights; and the truly challenging part for me, doing all of that with a smile and having the presence to give my wife the chance to talk about her day. Any one or two of those things I would think was doable. When it is all laid out, it's jaw-dropping for me.


There's an easter egg in your post that most won't notice. Expectations of periodic maintenance which isn't our expertise and likely we don't have the correct tools for is a pretty common and reasonable if we're strapped for money but expecting a good mood and smile is asking for a lot.

I cannot stand working on cars but in my first marriage, I was the mechanic whether is was something simple like brakes or annoying like an engine swap because we didn't have money to pay a mechanic. Instead of my ex understanding why I was in a bad mood, she was pissed off about me being pissed off. It's a two way street because we see this same type of dynamic in reverse when a wife is expected to be happy even though her life is nothing like she intended. Think SAHM who wants to work or working mom who wants to be SAHM.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

There is an option between doing it with a smile and being p*ssed off about it.

I don't do dishes with a smile but I don't huff and sigh and complain and be in a bad mood about it either. To me it just looks like immaturity, childishness. I can't even put up with it from my children, I certainly can't with my full grown husband. 

Stuff has to get done that no one enjoys doing, it's all part of being an adult. Complaining about it and letting it put you in a bad mood is pointless at best, damaging at worst. 

And I don't know how it relates to a woman wanting or not wanting to be a SAHM.

There's no big gender difference here. If her doing her half of the chores leads to her b*tching and complaining the whole time and then gets in a funk afterwards, that is the same thing.


----------



## turnera

Thundarr said:


> I cannot stand working on cars but in my first marriage, I was the mechanic whether is was something simple like brakes or annoying like an engine swap because we didn't have money to pay a mechanic. Instead of my ex understanding why I was in a bad mood, she was pissed off about me being pissed off. We see this happen in reverse when a wife wants to be SAHM but cannot because they need the money or wants to work but has to be SAHM because they can't afford daycare, vehicle, etc. So she's stuck and expected to be smiling and happy.


My H works on our cars because he knows how so he figures why pay someone else to do it? Which is fine. But then he gets in a bad mood - as he always does when he works on a project of ANY kind - and starts cussing, muttering, and telling me how much I suck at being helpful. 

Oh, and he expects me to help him while he's doing it. So he's basically saying, come sit with me and hand me wrenches and listen to me cuss and gripe and moan about the ungrateful wife I have. When I talk about it, he INSISTS he's not mad at me, he's just 'in a bad mood.' Yeah, doesn't help me NOT HURT while he's doing it.

Stupid me, I've been doing just that for 35 years. IC has tried to school me to just walk away once I start getting insulted. But when I do that, the next thing that happens is he moans about the ungrateful wife who won't HELP him.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> My H works on our cars because he knows how so he figures why pay someone else to do it? Which is fine. But then he gets in a bad mood - as he always does when he works on a project of ANY kind - and starts cussing, muttering, and telling me how much I suck at being helpful.
> 
> Oh, and he expects me to help him while he's doing it. So he's basically saying, come sit with me and hand me wrenches and listen to me cuss and gripe and moan about the ungrateful wife I have. When I talk about it, he INSISTS he's not mad at me, he's just 'in a bad mood.' Yeah, doesn't help me NOT HURT while he's doing it.
> 
> Stupid me, I've been doing just that for 35 years. IC has tried to school me to just walk away once I start getting insulted. But when I do that, the next thing that happens is *he moans about the ungrateful wife who won't HELP him*.


Why not let him just deal with his feelings?


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> In my SIL's case, my brother adopting his dead uncle's cat was the straw that broke the camel's back for her - their sixth cat, I think. Which she told him she didn't want him to adopt. And he did anyway. Not listening to her. And she was a dog person.
> 
> Granted, she was a WW. And the uncle's family was going to put the cat to sleep and cremate it to put with the uncle's body, so in a way, he rescued the cat, so I see the point. (and it's a wonderful cat!)
> 
> But the point is, HER opinions didn't matter. For years and years, they did things the way HE wanted because he assumed that HIS beliefs and choices were the right ones. She changed everything about herself to go with his way. Until a guy from her past showed up and she said 'what the hell am I doing here?'


I think she was smart to get out.


----------



## Adelais

turnera said:


> IC has tried to school me to just walk away once I start getting insulted. But when I do that, the next thing that happens is he moans about the ungrateful wife who won't HELP him.


Either way you lose, so choose the one that makes *you* less unhappy.


----------



## Thundarr

turnera said:


> My H works on our cars because he knows how so he figures why pay someone else to do it? Which is fine. But then he gets in a bad mood - as he always does when he works on a project of ANY kind - and starts cussing, muttering, and telling me how much I suck at being helpful.
> 
> Oh, and he expects me to help him while he's doing it. So he's basically saying, come sit with me and hand me wrenches and listen to me cuss and gripe and moan about the ungrateful wife I have. When I talk about it, he INSISTS he's not mad at me, he's just 'in a bad mood.' Yeah, doesn't help me NOT HURT while he's doing it.
> 
> Stupid me, I've been doing just that for 35 years. IC has tried to school me to just walk away once I start getting insulted. But when I do that, the next thing that happens is he moans about the ungrateful wife who won't HELP him.


That sucks turnera. It's a no win situation for you. We were young and broke and had no choice. Seems like your husband would be better off working overtime and then paying a mechanic to do stuff that's frustrating. At least that's what I've done for a long time now. I'm happy to do a lot of mechanic work but if a transmission or motor needs swapped or rebuilt then I'm saving up some money to let someone with more patience than me deal with it.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I am H's hander of things. Every now and then he'd complain about it "you're not holding the flashlight in the right place! How do you expect me to see anything??!" Or "I asked for a half inch, this is a 3/4 inch, can't you read?!!!" 
I had to do a "huh, that sounds like 'go inside and do my own thing' to me, bye" 

Now he always praises my help no matter how little I think I am actually doing by holding a flashlight or handing him a wrench. He fixes up cars and sometimes people will walk by and say "wow, that's a really good job" and he'll say "I couldn't have done it without my wife" or when he posts the pictures he will credit me for all my hard work. 
If he starts to get upset he can catch himself, stop and reword it to "could you move the flashlight a little to the left?"

One of the places I've actually seen much improvement, because it's something HE wants and HE needs (my help) 
It's not as easy for the stuff I need and want.


----------



## turnera

Thundarr said:


> That sucks turnera. It's a no win situation for you. We were young and broke and had no choice. Seems like your husband would be better off working overtime and then paying a mechanic to do stuff that's frustrating. At least that's what I've done for a long time now. I'm happy to do a lot of mechanic work but if a transmission or motor needs swapped or rebuilt then I'm saving up some money to let someone with more patience than me deal with it.


Thundarr, my H knows how to do everything. And I mean everything. He's a genius and did it all growing up. We've remodeled an entire house. The problem is, if I even TALK about hiring someone else to do anything, even to plaster the holes in the ceiling, he becomes irate - I'm wasting money (yet he won't acknowledge that HE put us $75,000 in debt), HE will get around to it. But then he never does. I DID realize a couple years ago that if I start to do the project myself, he will step in and do it himself. Like the toilet that sat un-installed for 3 years until I tried to do it myself and he took over. But once THAT happens, THEN the gripe becomes I'm 'forcing' him to do things and he has no mastery over the time in his own life. 

So IC tried to get me to 'not care' what he thinks. But when I have no self esteem to begin with, when I'm so conflict avoidant, when I never learned that I mattered, it is SO hard to hear that stuff and not want to just go away and die.


----------



## Tommy518

turnera said:


> There's a great, easy solution for that. I call it the State-of-the-Marriage meeting, or in your case, the State-of-the-Relationship meeting. Once a month (or whatever works), you sit down for about 15 minutes and just talk. How things are going, what you would change, what hasn't worked, what you'd wish for. You both agree to go into it without getting defensive but rather with a goal of having a safe, informative talk, so you can learn and grow - together. If you know you're gonna have a chance to bring things up in a regular meeting, it lets you just enjoy each other the rest of the time. One of MY biggest issues is that I never get to have such talks because my spouse just won't hear it. So resentment kicks in. If you both know you'll be heard, much better.
> 
> And have you read His Needs Her Needs yet? Best book out there for keeping things going well.


That's actually a great idea. I'll bring it up to her. We both have read that book, btw. We both came out of disfunctional marriages and don't want that to happen again. Thanks!


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> Thundarr, my H knows how to do everything. And I mean everything. He's a genius and did it all growing up. We've remodeled an entire house. The problem is, if I even TALK about hiring someone else to do anything, even to plaster the holes in the ceiling, he becomes irate - I'm wasting money (yet he won't acknowledge that HE put us $75,000 in debt), HE will get around to it. But then he never does. I DID realize a couple years ago that if I start to do the project myself, he will step in and do it himself. Like the toilet that sat un-installed for 3 years until I tried to do it myself and he took over. But once THAT happens, THEN the gripe becomes I'm 'forcing' him to do things and he has no mastery over the time in his own life.
> 
> *So IC tried to get me to 'not care' what he thinks. *But when I have no self esteem to begin with, when I'm so conflict avoidant, when I never learned that I mattered, it is SO hard to hear that stuff and not want to just go away and die.


Your IC was spot on. Turnera, you need to become your own best friend.

It sounds like every time you assert leadership in your family, things improve. You are the one setting the pace of improvement. You have all the tools to turn things around. Just practice letting his emotions roll off your back.


----------



## PieceOfSky

turnera said:


> Stupid me, I've been doing just that for 35 years. IC has tried to school me to just walk away once I start getting insulted.* But when I do that, the next thing that happens is he moans about the ungrateful wife who won't HELP him. *


In my best feminine Texas drawl: *So? You know what to do next.
*
(Yeah, my kids would tell you that generally my "accent attempts" suck. It always sounds better in my head.)


turnera, you're simultaneously breaking my heart and p!ssing me off. Stop calling your self stupid -- you're far from it. If there's any doubt, read this sage advice:


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...ional-verbal-abusers-change-4.html#post424047

and 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...ional-verbal-abusers-change-4.html#post424220

Could it be that putting yourself down let's you feel off the hook for taking sustained action? (I know it's hard, and it's proper you do things on your own timetable, but, someone showed me the value of calling it what it is, so there it is.)


----------



## jld

PieceOfSky said:


> In my best feminine Texas drawl: *So? You know what to do next.
> *
> (Yeah, my kids would tell you that generally my "accent attempts" suck. It always sounds better in my head.)
> 
> 
> turnera, you're simultaneously breaking my heart and p!ssing me off. Stop calling your self stupid -- you're far from it. If there's any doubt, read this sage advise:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...ional-verbal-abusers-change-4.html#post424220
> 
> Could it be that putting yourself down let's you feel off the hook for taking sustained action? (I know it's hard, and it's proper you do things on your own timetable, but, someone showed me the value of calling it what it is, so there it is.)


I think it is fear.

Fear can be overcome by breaking it down into manageable pieces to be conquered one bit at a time.

Or in one fell swoop by declaring bankruptcy and filing for divorce.


----------



## Thundarr

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> There is an option between doing it with a smile and being p*ssed off about it.
> 
> I don't do dishes with a smile but I don't huff and sigh and complain and be in a bad mood about it either. To me it just looks like immaturity, childishness. I can't even put up with it from my children, I certainly can't with my full grown husband.
> 
> Stuff has to get done that no one enjoys doing, it's all part of being an adult. Complaining about it and letting it put you in a bad mood is pointless at best, damaging at worst.
> 
> And I don't know how it relates to a woman wanting or not wanting to be a SAHM.
> 
> There's no big gender difference here. If her doing her half of the chores leads to her b*tching and complaining the whole time and then gets in a funk afterwards, that is the same thing.


As we get older many of us learn to take a step back, take a deep breath, and be civil and respectful even when we're frustrated. We learn how to tackle jobs that are with in our abilities. We learn to put in some research and prepare for jobs that were outside of our expertise. We learn to delegate some jobs to others. And our spouses respect our right to be frustrated and stressed because they aren't being treated poorly (EDIT: It sounds like he needs to work on this part). Our spouses even empathize and don't mind us fussing about the inanimate object we're working on (EDIT: Again is sounds like he fusses at you).


----------



## Thundarr

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I am H's hander of things. Every now and then he'd complain about it "you're not holding the flashlight in the right place! How do you expect me to see anything??!" Or "I asked for a half inch, this is a 3/4 inch, can't you read?!!!"
> I had to do a "huh, that sounds like 'go inside and do my own thing' to me, bye"


Oh yea that's a disaster. He needs to think this through. I can see exactly why this is a hot topic for you and turnera. If your husband asks you to help then he has to keep his composure and not take out frustration on the person helping.


----------



## Adelais

turnera said:


> So IC tried to get me to 'not care' what he thinks. But when I have no self esteem to begin with, when I'm so conflict avoidant, when I never learned that I mattered, it is SO hard to hear that stuff and not want to just go away and die.


Can you go back and take care of that little girl inside of you who doesn't think she matters? Can you do some "Child within" work and learn to take care of that scared, lonely little girl?


----------



## PieceOfSky

turnera said:


> So IC tried to get me to 'not care' what he thinks. But when I have no self esteem to begin with, when I'm so conflict avoidant, when I never learned that I mattered, it is SO hard to hear that stuff and not want to just go away and die.


That makes perfect sense (and I should say, YOU weren't REALLY p!ssing me off -- in this fuller context, my saying that seems like a rather shallow thing to say; I was trying to jolt you out of dis'ing yourself... like my accents, it sounds better in my head).

So, do you have a plan and are working a plan to build that self-esteem? You do matter. Staying present for his abuse only makes it harder for you to develop that self esteem you deserve. If you walk far enough away, and often enough, eventually you don't have to hear that stuff -- he's there just talking to himself.

I sometimes wonder what would happen if one kept an air horn handy (the sort used by fans at sporting events). When the verbal abuser starts in, one could immediately start interrupting the abuser mid-sentence, as required until out of ears reach. The abuser would be left there a bit stunned, me thinks. (Yeah, sounded better in my head...)


----------



## Thundarr

turnera said:


> Thundarr, my H knows how to do everything. And I mean everything. He's a genius and did it all growing up. We've remodeled an entire house. The problem is, if I even TALK about hiring someone else to do anything, even to plaster the holes in the ceiling, he becomes irate - I'm wasting money (yet he won't acknowledge that HE put us $75,000 in debt), HE will get around to it. But then he never does. I DID realize a couple years ago that if I start to do the project myself, he will step in and do it himself. Like the toilet that sat un-installed for 3 years until I tried to do it myself and he took over. But once THAT happens, THEN the gripe becomes I'm 'forcing' him to do things and he has no mastery over the time in his own life.
> 
> So IC tried to get me to 'not care' what he thinks. But when I have no self esteem to begin with, when I'm so conflict avoidant, when I never learned that I mattered, it is SO hard to hear that stuff and not want to just go away and die.


I guess I see what your IC is saying but it sure does feel like settling. Does your husband ever jot down himself a TODO list? I know I'll let little things set and set forever unless I actually make myself a list and my brother is the same way.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Thundarr said:


> Oh yea that's a disaster. He needs to think this through. I can see exactly why this is a hot topic for you and turnera. If your husband asks you to help then he has to keep his composure and not take out frustration on the person helping.


I don't like anger in general, even when not aimed at me. If he is grumping about his "stupid POS muffler, won't stay the f on" Tossing tools in an angry way, stomping, swearing, huffing, then it's just as upsetting to me. I don't like anger. It's scary to be around. It loses my trust and respect for him, it loses love.

I need to be able to trust him and his ability to control his anger.Take a breath, walk away for a minute, calm himself down BEFORE it gets to that point. When he doesn't, it's a huge love buster.


----------



## ocotillo

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I don't like anger in general, even when not aimed at me.


I wonder if that is fairly common? 

I've noticed that there are even movies my wife likes or dislikes based almost entirely on how well the male protagonist handles adversity.


----------



## jld

ocotillo said:


> I wonder if that is fairly common?
> 
> I've noticed that there are even movies my wife likes or dislikes based almost entirely on how well the male protagonist handles adversity.


Angry men are not safe men.


----------



## turnera

PieceOfSky said:


> Could it be that putting yourself down lets you feel off the hook for taking sustained action? (I know it's hard, and it's proper you do things on your own timetable, but, someone showed me the value of calling it what it is, so there it is.)


I don't feel off the hook for not taking action. I kick myself in the ass every day for not taking action. I don't like myself. I am terrified of rocking the boat. Just today, we're putting away Xmas stuff so I start taking apart the tree while H is in the attic doing whatever it is he's decided he needs to do. And when he comes down and sees the tree half apart, he gives his usual 'I wish you would have TOLD me you were taking the tree down...blah blah blah.' (he moved all his work stuff - a room full of boxes - into the garage where the tree box is, so you can't get to the box; and I"m not allowed to touch his work stuff, so I have no way to DO anything about it)

As has been said, I'm in a no-win situation; no matter what I do, I'm wrong.

My goal this year is to get the house under control, empty it of all but essentials, sell off everything else, try to get out of debt, so that if I do finally have the balls to leave, I won't have to deal with him again - just walk away. It's the dealing with him after I've said I'm leaving that I'm afraid of. He will make my life a living hell and I'm just not strong enough to withstand it. And that's what has kept me from doing anything - fear of the conflict.

So anyway, that's my goal. Maybe a year from now I'll be able to post here as one of those WAWs.


----------



## turnera

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Can you go back and take care of that little girl inside of you who doesn't think she matters? Can you do some "Child within" work and learn to take care of that scared, lonely little girl?


That's what I was trying to do in IC; spent years on it and never really got anywhere other than to recognize that I DO need to value myself.

Building self esteem and learning to love yourself is the hardest thing in the world to do, I think, if you weren't taught it in the first place.


----------



## turnera

Thundarr said:


> I guess I see what your IC is saying but it sure does feel like settling. Does your husband ever jot down himself a TODO list? I know I'll let little things set and set forever unless I actually make myself a list and my brother is the same way.


To-do lists are a hot topic with us. He simply refuses to discuss to-dos. All tied up in his mom forcing him to do everything for her, his alcoholic dad ruining their lives, him having to be the 'responsible' one - and thus me not being allowed to tell him anything is wrong. So HE won't discuss to-dos unless he's in a good mood, feeling confident and magnanimous. Again, I'm on his timetable, unable to guide things because it's verboten to discuss.

That said, I DO have a to-do list. It's on the kitchen counter right now. I leave it out now. Add or subtract as things occur. The toilet's back on since it messed up and he just turned it off and locked the door so no one can use it (again). Now the showerhead's on it since he put a new one on and it didn't work and he just took the new one off and left it without one. We'll see how long that takes.

It's not the stuff that bothers me. It's that I don't have any say in when, if, or how anything gets done. I'm not allowed to talk about it, or he gets mad.


----------



## turnera

ocotillo said:


> I wonder if that is fairly common?
> 
> I've noticed that there are even movies my wife likes or dislikes based almost entirely on how well the male protagonist handles adversity.


Absolutely true with me. Just this morning an ad for Ellen Degeneres comes on and he starts cussing her out, making rude comments about her. I tried to deflect it, see what's really making him mad about her, he just says 'oh, it's just stuff she says.' So no resolution. But I'M left feeling gut-punched just listening to the vitriol. Maybe it's a subconscious "if he says that about her, what does he say about me" thing.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> To-do lists are a hot topic with us. He simply refuses to discuss to-dos. All tied up in his mom forcing him to do everything for her, his alcoholic dad ruining their lives, him having to be the 'responsible' one - and thus me not being allowed to tell him anything is wrong. So HE won't discuss to-dos unless he's in a good mood, feeling confident and magnanimous. Again, I'm on his timetable, unable to guide things because it's verboten to discuss.
> 
> That said, I DO have a to-do list. It's on the kitchen counter right now. I leave it out now. Add or subtract as things occur. The toilet's back on since it messed up and he just turned it off and locked the door so no one can use it (again). Now the showerhead's on it since he put a new one on and it didn't work and he just took the new one off and left it without one. We'll see how long that takes.
> 
> It's not the stuff that bothers me. It's that I don't have any say in when, if, or how anything gets done. I'm not allowed to talk about it, or he gets mad.


Why do you submit to his anger? 

When you stopped submitting to his financial direction, your finances got better. When you stop submitting to his anger, your self esteem will improve.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> Absolutely true with me. Just this morning an ad for Ellen Degeneres comes on and he starts cussing her out, making rude comments about her. I tried to deflect it, see what's really making him mad about her, he just says 'oh, it's just stuff she says.' So no resolution. But I'M left feeling gut-punched just listening to the vitriol. Maybe it's a subconscious "if he says that about her, what does he say about me" thing.


I would encourage you not to worry about it. He has shown himself not to have wise judgment. If he thinks something negative about you, it is likely not true anyway.

Sounds like he feels threatened by strong women.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

turnera said:


> To-do lists are a hot topic with us. He simply refuses to discuss to-dos. All tied up in his mom forcing him to do everything for her, his alcoholic dad ruining their lives, him having to be the 'responsible' one - and thus me not being allowed to tell him anything is wrong. So HE won't discuss to-dos unless he's in a good mood, feeling confident and magnanimous. Again, I'm on his timetable, unable to guide things because it's verboten to discuss.
> 
> That said, I DO have a to-do list. It's on the kitchen counter right now. I leave it out now. Add or subtract as things occur. The toilet's back on since it messed up and he just turned it off and locked the door so no one can use it (again). Now the showerhead's on it since he put a new one on and it didn't work and he just took the new one off and left it without one. We'll see how long that takes.
> 
> It's not the stuff that bothers me. It's that I don't have any say in when, if, or how anything gets done. I'm not allowed to talk about it, or he gets mad.


Are these things you can do on your own? Most of the stuff I used to need H for I figured out how to do myself (mostly through youtube and trial and error) 
It's really taken a lot of stress off me in many ways because I feel I accomplished something, I feel proud of doing it, independent. And I got it done when I wanted it done. No waiting around on H to get to it.
I'm getting myself my own set of tools, there is a pink set that I want. Not because I'm a girl but because I know my H won't steal them. Every time I go buy myself a tool it ends up with his stuff. 

It does detach me from H and it can end up being it's own issue (He says I don't ask for help and I just do things myself, usually when he is not there, so he can't help me with them anyway, which is true but the small tasks I do ask him to do is still like pulling teeth so....) but the pros were more than the cons.


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## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Are these things you can do on your own? Most of the stuff I used to need H for I figured out how to do myself (mostly through youtube and trial and error)
> It's really taken a lot of stress off me in many ways because I feel I accomplished something, I feel proud of doing it, independent. And I got it done when I wanted it done. No waiting around on H to get to it.
> I'm getting myself my own set of tools, there is a pink set that I want. Not because I'm a girl but because I know my H won't steal them. Every time I go buy myself a tool it ends up with his stuff.
> 
> It does detach me from H and it can end up being it's own issue (He says I don't ask for help and I just do things myself, usually when he is not there, so he can't help me with them anyway, which is true but the small tasks I do ask him to do is still like pulling teeth so....) but the pros were more than the cons.


The more you can do on your own, the more optional the husband starts to seem. Good news for the wife, bad news for the husband.


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## turnera

I've tried. I usually end up messing the thing up. Like I tried to hang curtains and they all came crashing down, breaking other stuff. And then I get chewed out. And like I said, when I do do something myself, he gripes at me anyway. The ONLY thing I've been able to do better than him is paint, even though he tried to take that away from me, too, until he couldn't get it right and I did it when he wasn't home (it was a textural paint style).

We're getting off the point. My story doesn't belong in WAWs - well, it would if I had the nerve to leave. But I think mine has gone on far further than a typical WAW would have put up with. It's gone on into the pathetic category.

So if nothing else, just take away that not caring for the woman's feelings is what makes her want to leave.


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## kag123

Turnera - your marriage sounds an awful lot like my parents the more that you type about it. My dad has a lot of the same traits as your H and you sound a lot like my mom. My mom has some things that trigger her based on her upbringing...the biggest are anger of any kind, and foul language. She can't stand it. Well my dad knows that and uses it as a weapon. He cusses like no one I've ever met before. Not AT her, or anyone really except for the TV or the car or whatever item is his latest frustration. It doesn't bother ME but I can see it gets under my mom's skin. He also similarly holds her hostage over the to-do list. I don't know WHY he behaves that way. Power? Feeling of control? He knows she will not leave him, and that when faced with that type of anger from him she shrinks and becomes a mouse in front of him. I think the more she shrinks back, the more she's feeding into his desire to keep doing it. That's the reaction he wants. 

I've advised her to stand up to him, but she won't. 

The next best thing I advise her to do is to leave the house as soon as he starts his tirade. She has been doing that. She says nothing. When there is behavior she does not like she gets her purse and leaves and will go to the store, see a movie, whatever. He punishes her for leaving by giving her the silent treatment for a few days. That is preferable to her than hearing the anger. Eventually he realizes it's lonely to have your wife constantly gone or be ignoring her and he shapes up. Then eventually slips again and the cycle repeats. It's not a permanent solution but it does bring her enough relief to deal with it. She's already decided she's never going to leave him, and he won't leave her either. 

You have grown children, don't you? I am an only child but one of the most interesting things I find is that I grew up around his anger and tantrums. It was never quite as focused on me as on my mom, but I was still treated that way quite a bit in my teen years before leaving home. I swung 180 degrees opposite and stood up to him and gave it back to him as much as he gave it to me. Not the foul language but basically telling him he wasn't allowed to treat me that way and I wasn't going to tolerate it. And I didn't. As soon as I got my license I would leave, and when I moved out and he continued to fight with me at times I told him I wasn't going to speak to him unless he changed his attitude. 

I suppose the idea of losing your daughter is enough to shake him so he no longer treats me that way. When I am around and he begins a rant and it gets heated, I tell him to cool it and he will stop. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## jld

turnera said:


> So if nothing else, just take away that not caring for the woman's feelings is what makes her want to leave.


I agree. Dr. Harley has a piece on how neglect is what is most likely to make a woman leave her husband. I will see if I can link it . . .


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## jld

Why Women Leave Men


----------



## AliceA

ocotillo said:


> I wonder if that is fairly common?
> 
> I've noticed that there are even movies my wife likes or dislikes based almost entirely on how well the male protagonist handles adversity.


I can only answer for myself, but it's the same for me. Example: I work with DH, he comes in and is frustrated/angry at something and is swearing at his computer screen; I get tense and anxious, and it is very difficult for me to relax/focus.

I think this is partly due to feeling like I am under threat. My father always took his bad moods out on my Mother (not physically but verbally). An angry partner to me equates to an angry partner AT me. DH has done little to ease my fears as he also takes out his frustrations on me. He wouldn't admit it but when he's angry at someone else, I'm the one that cops the nasty look, the tense voice, the unrealistic demands. He may not yell, but being talked to like you are a the lowest piece of filth on the planet is just as bad.

The fear/anxiety I think comes from our very simplistic 'old' brain where a threat to us (emotionally and verbally) is also interpreted as a physical threat, even if we know we won't be harmed physically, the fear response is the same.


----------



## jld

breeze said:


> I can only answer for myself, but it's the same for me. Example: I work with DH, he comes in and is frustrated/angry at something and is swearing at his computer screen; I get tense and anxious, and it is very difficult for me to relax/focus.
> 
> I think this is partly due to feeling like I am under threat. My father always took his bad moods out on my Mother (not physically but verbally). An angry partner to me equates to an angry partner AT me. DH has done little to ease my fears as he also takes out his frustrations on me. He wouldn't admit it but when he's angry at someone else, I'm the one that cops the nasty look, the tense voice, the unrealistic demands. He may not yell, but being talked to like you are a the lowest piece of filth on the planet is just as bad.
> 
> The fear/anxiety I think comes from our very simplistic 'old' brain where a threat to us (emotionally and verbally) is also interpreted as a physical threat, even if we know we won't be harmed physically, the fear response is the same.


Breeze, do you find yourself defending your husband to other people? Or do you let him reflect on what people might tell him regarding how he treats you?


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## Cosmos

jld said:


> Why Women Leave Men


Spot on!


----------



## Adelais

turnera said:


> It's gone on into the pathetic category.
> 
> So if nothing else, just take away that not caring for the woman's feelings is what makes her want to leave.


When I read your posts like that I feel so sad for you. You are not pathetic.

Is there any way for you to detach and say to yourself, "He is such a jerk, his behavior and bad attitude toward me is his problem."?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

breeze said:


> The fear/anxiety I think comes from our very simplistic 'old' brain where a threat to us (emotionally and verbally) is also interpreted as a physical threat, even if we know we won't be harmed physically, the fear response is the same.


Yep, seeing, feeling or hearing anger puts me into instant fight, flight, or freeze mode. Usually I flee, I go outside, get away from it. If I am around anger I can not get away from I can go into a full blown panic attack (like if H starts getting upset at another car while driving with me, he doesn't start driving like a jerk but will yell, name call, tense up, etc)


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Turnera - Your story is very suitable and fitting for here. All ends of it, how to prevent it before it begins, how to fix it when it's just starting, the women in withdrawal but not gone, the ones who left and the ones, like you, who stayed, at least for now.  

Everyone has their own reasons and story.


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## Adelais

jld said:


> Why Women Leave Men


My heart sank as I read that. When a husband is gone more than he is home, he has few opportunities to "let her into all the rooms of his house." I want to cry. I do feel neglected, and would rather live alone than miss a husband who made a choice 8 years ago to leave home for a job rather than get a job where he can be home. His choice to continue doing that speaks volumes to me.


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## jld

imfaraboverubies said:


> my heart sank as i read that. When a husband is gone more than he is home, he has few opportunities to "let her into all the rooms of his house." i want to cry. I do feel neglected, and would rather live alone than miss a husband who made a choice 8 years ago to leave home for a job rather than get a job where he can be home. His choice to continue doing that speaks volumes to me.


(((imfar)))


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## turnera

The hardest part for me, in MY story, is that he loves me like crazy. I'm the ONLY person he's ever wanted to be in a relationship, he was a player before me, he'd have women hold on the phone for HOURS to get to talk to him when we worked together, but he basically waited for me when I was engaged. If I say I want anything, he'll go right out and buy it. He built a river in the woods behind our house because I used to say I wanted to live by a river like my aunt and uncle did. It's just when it comes to the day to day stuff that his FOO kicks in, and it's because I fear confrontation so badly that I rarely call him out on stuff that's the issues. DD25, as has been said, doesn't get much of this stuff cos she just tells him she won't accept it, and as has been said, he IS afraid SHE will leave him. I just have to find a backbone. I am getting there.


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## jld

turnera said:


> The hardest part for me, in MY story, is that he loves me like crazy. I'm the ONLY person he's ever wanted to be in a relationship, he was a player before me, he'd have women hold on the phone for HOURS to get to talk to him when we worked together, but he basically waited for me when I was engaged. If I say I want anything, he'll go right out and buy it. He built a river in the woods behind our house because I used to say I wanted to live by a river like my aunt and uncle did. It's just when it comes to the day to day stuff that his FOO kicks in, and it's because I fear confrontation so badly that I rarely call him out on stuff that's the issues. DD25, as has been said, doesn't get much of this stuff cos she just tells him she won't accept it, and as has been said, he IS afraid SHE will leave him. I just have to find a backbone. I am getting there.


You could see it as a gift to him to call him out. He is certainly not building a happy future for himself with the way he is handling things.


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## AliceA

jld said:


> Breeze, do you find yourself defending your husband to other people? Or do you let him reflect on what people might tell him regarding how he treats you?


People are not forthcoming in speaking to him about it if indeed anyone has seen an issue with it. The main people who see it are the guys at work and I can understand, because I would be the same, that they would not wish to get in the middle of it.


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## Adelais

I would be lying if I didn't tell you that he looks for a job for an hour or two (sometimes) when he is home. The ones that respond do not offer what we need to pay bills.

This week I suggested he expand his search to the area we moved from before we came here, since there are more jobs there and so we can go home and get away from OW. We are crossing paths with OW more often due to her joining activities our family is in. Our children don't seem as attached to this location as much as they were and also seem more favorable to moving back.

Sorry to get off topic from the WAW, but H's not being home, and having to see OW are other reasons for hardening my heart and becoming a WAW someday.


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## kag123

jld said:


> Why Women Leave Men


This was a great read. 

However a couple of things made me cringe. 

1. "Soulmates" - instantly makes me want to gag. I take it to enforce the stereotype that women want a fairytale prince type of relationship with rainbows and sparkles. 

2. The whole article is written to speak to what the WIFE wants. Written well and I can appreciate the rooms of the house analogy. However, I was waiting for the part where they talk about what the HUSBAND wants for a happy marriage. To make his wife happy? He has no wants or desires of his own? 

I ask sincerely - what does the husband want? Sex? To be left alone except for sex? 

There are plenty of times when I truly wonder what entices a man to marry. Without the same need for emotional bonding - and the fact that sex usually goes down in a marriage not up - why do they marry at all? 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## EleGirl

Satya said:


> I for one do not believe that the original post was making any assumptions about a "magic recipe" for preventing WAW or WAH. I think that it was a thread started by one person having been in a particular place, with a particular experience, and was sharing thoughts on what might have prevented a very serious and emotionally rocky challenge that many relationships/marriages can and do face.
> 
> What the thread has evolved into is a place for many posters with their own personal experiences to share those as well, some on the premise of doing it as a "take it as it is" bit of info, and some with very strong feelings of knowing or being right about what they believe the reasons are.
> 
> Like all posts, you (personally) either take away something of value or you find it not so valuable. There's really quite a bit of personal projection going on by some posters, but honestly I would come to expect no less with a subject such as this.
> 
> Since I'm a woman that was a near WAW, I know from my perspective that there are many things I did wrong and there were many things that my ex H did that were wrong. No one in this day and age dares to do the same to me as he did and maintain any sort of contact or relationship with me, because I no longer allow others to treat me this way. That's the part I owned and improved upon. The parts that my ex H should have owned are the disrespectful behaviors that well and truly cut me deeply, and which were also met with his indifference, laughter, mocking, and stonewalling. Poor victim me? No, by staying in the relationship longer than I needed to, I am partially at fault for my own unhappiness. I truly believe that my requests were not crazy, over and above, or demanding. They were offered with great doses of patience and understanding. Sometimes I'd go for weeks without saying anything because I didn't want to be told I was just crazy or worrying about nothing. It really is very frustrating to be told that your concerns aren't worth having even a 5 minute discussion over.
> 
> This is a battle that neither side WINS, both actually LOSES something and hopefully in the process one or both partners actually GAINS introspection and insight into the ways that partners either show respect or (sometimes unknowingly or unintentionally) disrespect that can erode the very foundations of what should be an otherwise deep and unshakable bond. Both partners need to be responsible for their 50%, and failure from either to recognize, nurture, and encourage communication in regards to each others' needs - and then FOLLOW THROUGH with real effort and demonstrable care for those needs - will inevitably lead to a disintegration of aforementioned bond, one that is very challenging, sometimes near impossible to repair.


I'm quoting this post because I think it hits home, at least from my perspective.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

kag123 said:


> This was a great read.
> 
> However a couple of things made me cringe.
> 
> 1. "Soulmates" - instantly makes me want to gag. I take it to enforce the stereotype that women want a fairytale prince type of relationship with rainbows and sparkles.
> 
> 2. The whole article is written to speak to what the WIFE wants. Written well and I can appreciate the rooms of the house analogy. However, I was waiting for the part where they talk about what the HUSBAND wants for a happy marriage. To make his wife happy? He has no wants or desires of his own?
> 
> I ask sincerely - what does the husband want? Sex? To be left alone except for sex?
> 
> There are plenty of times when I truly wonder what entices a man to marry. Without the same need for emotional bonding - and the fact that sex usually goes down in a marriage not up - why do they marry at all?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


There are several other areas on that webpage for male needs, this article was just specific to women and is written by a man FTR. 

Men do have their own emotional needs. Admiration/praise, sex (which is an emotional connection) recreation, etc but it is specific for each man and they will each have their own list. 

This is his basic list of needs 
Affection
Sexual Fulfillment
Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Honesty and Openness
Physical Attractiveness
Financial Support
Domestic Support
Family Commitment
Admiration

The ones that mean the most to a person are what makes them feel in love and want to be with the person who meets those needs.


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## Adelais

turnera said:


> The hardest part for me, in MY story, is that *he loves me like crazy*. I'm the ONLY person he's ever wanted to be in a relationship, he was a player before me, he'd have women hold on the phone for HOURS to get to talk to him when we worked together, but he basically waited for me when I was engaged. If I say I want anything, he'll go right out and buy it. He built a river in the woods behind our house because I used to say I wanted to live by a river like my aunt and uncle did. It's just when it comes to the day to day stuff that his FOO kicks in, and it's because I fear confrontation so badly that I rarely call him out on stuff that's the issues. DD25, as has been said, doesn't get much of this stuff cos she just tells him she won't accept it, and as has been said, he IS afraid SHE will leave him. I just have to find a backbone. I am getting there.


turnera, I'm glad that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he loves you like crazy. 

What would be the worst thing that could happen if you talked with a lawyer to find out how D works in your state? Do it when you are not fed up, but just go to get some information.

Talking with a lawyer helped me get some courage, and helped me put one foot in front of the other to start getting some things in order. I opened my own bank account separate from our joint account. I took more control over finances to protect my future. Just those two things got his attention that things weren't going to be the same anymore, and that I was not playing a game. His changes are slow, and sometimes I think they are just enough to keep me, but he promises he is not finished changing.

Have you ever actually spoken with a lawyer?


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## jld

kag123 said:


> This was a great read.
> 
> However a couple of things made me cringe.
> 
> 1. "Soulmates" - instantly makes me want to gag. I take it to enforce the stereotype that women want a fairytale prince type of relationship with rainbows and sparkles.


Hey, what's wrong with rainbows and sparkles? 

I want a fairy castle thrown in there, too. 



> 2. The whole article is written to speak to what the WIFE wants. Written well and I can appreciate the rooms of the house analogy. However, I was waiting for the part where they talk about what the HUSBAND wants for a happy marriage. To make his wife happy? He has no wants or desires of his own?
> 
> I ask sincerely - what does the husband want? Sex? To be left alone except for sex?
> 
> There are plenty of times when I truly wonder what entices a man to marry. Without the same need for emotional bonding - and the fact that sex usually goes down in a marriage not up - why do they marry at all?


In my husband's case, he wanted my companionship and wanted children with me. He waited a long time for me.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> There are several other areas on that webpage for male needs, this article was just specific to women and is written by a man FTR.
> 
> Men do have their own emotional needs. Admiration/praise, sex (which is an emotional connection) recreation, etc but it is specific for each man and they will each have their own list.
> 
> This is his basic list of needs
> Affection
> Sexual Fulfillment
> Conversation
> Recreational Companionship
> Honesty and Openness
> Physical Attractiveness
> Financial Support
> Domestic Support
> Family Commitment
> Admiration
> 
> The ones that mean the most to a person are what makes them feel in love and want to be with the person who meets those needs.


I can't remember exactly what the order of importance was for Dug, but I do know Family Commitment was right up there. Having children, and having them breastfed and homeschooled, was extremely important to him.


----------



## EleGirl

Tommy518 said:


> Generally, we're pretty good at working those sorts of things out, realizing that we're both flawed and might forget or need reminding sometimes. She's very fair in that way. Sometimes, though, the issue is complicated and involves my gut response to things that others do that I have no control over. While I can try to control my responses, they're built into my personality and I can't necessarily force myself to suddenly change how I respond or the internal feelings or comfort level I have, if that makes sense. Sometimes this requires a deeper and more collaborative look for a solution and might require others to adjust their behavior or expectations of me. That's where things can get sticky. That's where we can get defensive if we think the other person is expecting us to simply make an adjustment (in ourselves) and fix it. For that reason, maybe it's best to lay out expectations first and make it clear that any solution will require both parties to change in some way, whether behavior or expectations.


Have you read the books "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters"? They are meant for both people to read and then to work through what they say to do together. I think that the books would help both of you.

We all need to change things about ourselves at times so that we can have and keep the things and people we want in our lives. That's life. It's called growing. Yes it's hard. But here is a lot of material out there on how to accomplish the changes.. "cognitive behavior modification" is the term for it. Athletes do this constantly to up their game. It works.

.


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## Adelais

kag123 said:


> This was a great read.
> 
> However a couple of things made me cringe.
> 
> 1. "Soulmates" - instantly makes me want to gag. I take it to enforce the stereotype that women want a fairytale prince type of relationship with rainbows and sparkles.


Not necessarily fairytale prince. When I read the soulmate part, I changed it to "Be One" instead of two ships that just happen to be going in the same direction. It means that the two are going to do whatever they can to love each other, be better people for each other, etc. so they will still be together when they are old.



kag123 said:


> 2. The whole article is written to speak to what the WIFE wants. Written well and I can appreciate the rooms of the house analogy. However, I was waiting for the part where they talk about what the HUSBAND wants for a happy marriage. To make his wife happy? He has no wants or desires of his own?


The article is called, "Why Women Leave Men." You need to read some of his other articles to find the answers to your questions about husbands. 



kag123 said:


> I ask sincerely - what does the husband want? Sex? To be left alone except for sex? There are plenty of times when I truly wonder what entices a man to marry. Without the same need for emotional bonding - and the fact that sex usually goes down in a marriage not up - why do they marry at all?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Many a book has been written about what you are asking. From many posters on TAM it seems that sex is #1 and nothing much matters. As to why to stay married, some men here consider D when they don't get sex more than 1 X per week. MGTOW men are not marrying and telling other men the virtues of not marrying.


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## turnera

Rubies, I haven't been to a lawyer. But I do know that he would tell me half the debt is mine. Which right now, including timeshares and car loan and school debt and credit card debt, not even including mortgage, is upwards of $200,000. And I frankly can't afford to live alone and pay off half of that, and doing bankruptcy is more of a confrontation than I am ready to deal with atm. atm, I'm willing to stay here and work my way out of this mess before I go there. He's not beating me, he's not like this every day, and it's MY issue of not protecting myself that IMO needs more work atm. So that's my resolution for this year. I do think it's a turning point year, one where I can 'feel' that I'm finally reaching a stronger point in my life and can handle the little things (like the upcoming fight when he sees me throwing out old oven racks we no longer need, etc.). And I think I can handle going back to IC this year, so that will help.


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## john117

Sex is not #1 but its a good canary in the coal mine type predictor, well ahead of other events. 

Chicago is practically our second hometown and forever we would walk holding hands and planning our retirement spot - a high rise lakefront condo in Lincoln Park or South Loop. As things began to unravel she realized 6,000 sq ft is fine for retirement, maybe more, with a big yard and garden etc. 

If humans would pick up nuances life would be easier.


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## Adelais

turnera said:


> Rubies, I haven't been to a lawyer. But I do know that he would tell me half the debt is mine. Which right now, including timeshares and car loan and school debt and credit card debt, not even including mortgage, is upwards of $200,000. And I frankly can't afford to live alone and pay off half of that, and doing bankruptcy is more of a confrontation than I am ready to deal with atm. atm, I'm willing to stay here and work my way out of this mess before I go there. He's not beating me, he's not like this every day, and it's MY issue of not protecting myself that IMO needs more work atm. So that's my resolution for this year. I do think it's a turning point year, one where I can 'feel' that I'm finally reaching a stronger point in my life and can handle the little things (like the upcoming fight when he sees me throwing out old oven racks we no longer need, etc.). And I think I can handle going back to IC this year, so that will help.


And do you have assets to offset the debt? Could you sell off some of the debt to reduce it?


----------



## turnera

Not really.


----------



## EleGirl

Tunera, I have a very different view of your relationship. I think that the two of you love each other. As you get stronger emotionally, you have an opportunity to change a lot in the relationship. You have enormous power in your relationship but have not realized it yet. You have also not learned how to use it for the benefit of your marriage. I hope you do learn those things.

I had a counselor tell me that one of my problems (and a common problem with women) is that when we marry we still act like girlfriends. We are not girlfriends, we are wives. The husband is the king of the castle, and we are the queen. Do you see a Queen of her castle doing what you do? Nope. Take your power and use it wisely.

You will need to file for bankrupticy at some point as I doubt that you two can pay off that kind of debt. At that point drag your king to a financial planner. If he needs counseling to stop his running up debt, then there is that too.

Your husband would be devastated if you left him. I have no doubt about that reading your posts. You need to take the lead here on a lot of this.

Just my two cents. I would love to see the two of you fix this.

.


----------



## synthetic

A walkaway wife is perhaps one of the best things that could happen to a man.

don't believe me? Ask those who had a WAW how they're feeling about life a few years after the deed 

Walkaway Wives are awesome! They enable you to feel "born again". The more the merrier


----------



## ExiledBayStater

synthetic said:


> A walkaway wife is perhaps one of the best things that could happen to a man.
> 
> don't believe me? Ask those who had a WAW how they're feeling about life a few years after the deed
> 
> Walkaway Wives are awesome! They enable you to feel "born again". The more the merrier


Suit up, you're about to take some heat.


----------



## synthetic

ExiledBayStater said:


> Suit up, you're about to take some heat.


Bring it on! I speak from experience.

For a decent man with a stable income and a moral fiber, a woman willing to leave is actually a blessing in disguise. Men are biologically wired to want to spread their sperm and explore other options. The only thing stopping them is guilt and morality (and perhaps money). When a wife willingly forces her husband on that path, well, it's party time!

I'm not denying the initial pain and suffering, but hey! That's the cost of feeling awesome again!


----------



## Lila

synthetic said:


> A walkaway wife is perhaps one of the best things that could happen to a man.
> 
> don't believe me? Ask those who had a WAW how they're feeling about life a few years after the deed
> 
> Walkaway Wives are awesome! They enable you to feel "born again". The more the merrier


Not ALL WAW or ALL left-behinds are merrier after the fact, but strangely I do agree that it's the best thing that can happen in sh!tty marriages. 

It's _typically_ a win-win for all. Both spouses get another opportunity to learn from their mistakes and hopefully to find their 'happily ever after'.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Sex is not #1 but its a good canary in the coal mine type predictor, well ahead of other events.


I think this is often true. Women don't usually want to have sex if they are not feeling good with the man.


----------



## synthetic

> Not ALL WAW or ALL left-behinds are merrier after the fact


WAWs are always one or two levels of contentment below the left-behind solely because of the 'anticipation' and 'guilt' factors. The left-behind spouse initially suffers immensely from these 2 hindrances, but almost always recovers. The walk-away spouse on the other hand often spends the rest of their life anticipating the green pastures and feeling a dreadful connection made of guilt and curiosity towards their past.

I don't know about it being a win-win for all, but for a man with a walk-away wife, it's definitely a very safe winning bet.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Lila said:


> Not ALL WAW or ALL left-behinds are merrier after the fact, but strangely I do agree that it's the best thing that can happen in sh!tty marriages.
> 
> It's _typically_ a win-win for all. Both spouses get another opportunity to learn from their mistakes and hopefully to find their 'happily ever after'.


Yes, and when women (or men) get to that point, it's because being single is a better option than staying married without getting your needs met. 

Even if they never find another partner, they can still be a lot better off single than in an unhappy marriage. 

_"I used to think that the worst thing in life was to end up alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel alone."_


----------



## Adelais

EleGirl said:


> *You have enormous power in your relationship *but have not realized it yet. You have also not *learned how to use it for the benefit of your marriage*. I hope you do learn those things.
> 
> I had a counselor tell me that one of my problems (and a common problem with women) is that when we marry we still act like girlfriends. We are not girlfriends, we are wives. The husband is the king of the castle, and we are the queen. Do you see a* Queen of her castle* doing what you do? Nope.* Take your power and use it wisely.*
> 
> You will need to file for bankrupticy at some point as I doubt that you two can pay off that kind of debt. At that point* drag your king to a financial planner*. If he needs counseling to stop his running up debt, then there is that too.
> 
> Your husband would be devastated if you left him. I have no doubt about that reading your posts. You need to take the lead here on a lot of this.
> 
> Just my two cents. I would love to see the two of you fix this.
> 
> .


OMG! I just finished a quick read (half hour skimming) of Real Women Don't Do Housework, by ***ima Misato (aka @ladymisato) Real Women Don't Do Housework and the bolded parts could have come right out of her (crazy) book!

She has a lot of good things to say, but her focus on controlling a man using sex, humiliation and punishment are absolutely insane!

However, turnera, you might get a few good ideas from the book, if you can not gag over the other stuff. You can read it on her website. It could give you a head change about your role as a queen of your household.


----------



## jld

synthetic said:


> WAWs are always one or two levels of contentment below the left-behind solely because of the 'anticipation' and 'guilt' factors. The left-behind spouse initially suffers immensely from these 2 hindrances, but almost always recovers. The walk-away spouse on the other hand often spends the rest of their life anticipating the green pastures and feeling a dreadful connection made of guilt and curiosity towards their past.
> 
> I don't know about it being a win-win for all, but for a man with a walk-away wife, it's definitely a very safe winning bet.


_Maybe not for Macho McCoy . . ._


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Yes, and when women (or men) get to that point, it's because being single is a better option than staying married without getting your needs met.
> 
> Even if they never find another partner, they can still be a lot better off single than in an unhappy marriage.
> 
> _"I used to think that the worst thing in life was to end up alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel alone."_


That is a very sad quote. Very good, but very sad.


----------



## jld

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> OMG! I just finished a quick read (half hour skimming) of Real Women Don't Do Housework, by ***ima Misato (aka @ladymisato) Real Women Don't Do Housework and the bolded parts could have come right out of her (crazy) book!
> 
> She has a lot of good things to say, but her focus on controlling a man using sex, humiliation and punishment are absolutely insane!
> 
> However, turnera, you might get a few good ideas from the book, if you can not gag over the other stuff. You can read it on her website. It could give you a head change about your role as a queen of your household.


I agree. You can't take Lady M literally. But she does have some interesting ideas that we women could ponder.

And remember, she said once that her husband taught her a lot of those humiliation and punishment techniques. He and some other men actually get off on that stuff.


----------



## EleGirl

synthetic said:


> WAWs are always one or two levels of contentment below the left-behind solely because of the 'anticipation' and 'guilt' factors. The left-behind spouse initially suffers immensely from these 2 hindrances, but almost always recovers. The walk-away spouse on the other hand often spends the rest of their life anticipating the green pastures and feeling a dreadful connection made of guilt and curiosity towards their past.
> 
> I don't know about it being a win-win for all, but for a man with a walk-away wife, it's definitely a very safe winning bet.


Does it make you feel better to think that the above is true? It's not. 

It might be true for some WAWs. 
It is also true that some of their husbands never recover as well.

I personally do not know one women who left her husband who regrets it. All have done much better without the guy. Leaving bad marriages is good for both spouses.


.


----------



## EleGirl

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> OMG! I just finished a quick read (half hour skimming) of Real Women Don't Do Housework, by ***ima Misato (aka @ladymisato) Real Women Don't Do Housework and the bolded parts could have come right out of her (crazy) book!
> 
> She has a lot of good things to say, but her focus on controlling a man using sex, humiliation and punishment are absolutely insane!
> 
> However, turnera, you might get a few good ideas from the book, if you can not gag over the other stuff. You can read it on her website. It could give you a head change about your role as a queen of your household.


That's hilarious that what I wrote seems to come right out her (crazy) book. I've never read her (crazy) book. Her posts in her original thread on TAM were enough to tell me that her real point is to encourage women to control men through abuse.

I'm not talking about anything that she's selling.

.


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> That's hilarious that what I wrote seems to come right out her (crazy) book. I've never read her (crazy) book. Her posts in her original thread on TAM were enough to tell me that her real point is to encourage women to control men through abuse.
> 
> I'm not talking about anything that she's selling.
> 
> .


Take a look at her book sometime, Ele. I think you might find yourself agreeing with a fair amount of it. 

Like Rubies said, just ignore the wilder parts!


----------



## john117

But why bother to tell them? Suspense is so romantic


----------



## Adelais

EleGirl said:


> I've never read her (crazy) book. Her posts in her original thread on TAM were enough to tell me that her real point is to encourage women to control men through abuse.


I decided to read it after a male poster warned another male poster about her on another thread. I wanted to know what the men are so afraid of. (...grabbing a man by the penis and testicles, and squeezing when "correcting" him...and the man being conditioned to put up with it. I get why guys are afraid of their wives reading her stuff. BTW I'd never want to control my H like that.)



EleGirl said:


> I'm not talking about anything that she's selling.
> 
> .


 Ha! Ha! I knew you weren't but the coincidence was unnerving.


----------



## JukeboxHero

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> OMG! I just finished a quick read (half hour skimming) of Real Women Don't Do Housework, by ***ima Misato (aka @ladymisato) Real Women Don't Do Housework and the bolded parts could have come right out of her (crazy) book!
> 
> She has a lot of good things to say, but her focus on controlling a man using sex, humiliation and punishment are absolutely insane!
> 
> However, turnera, you might get a few good ideas from the book, if you can not gag over the other stuff. You can read it on her website. It could give you a head change about your role as a queen of your household.



I started reading her book way back when she initially gave me advice about my W being more dominant and suggested a W-led marriage. At the time, I thought that's what I had.

Then I got to the part about how a W should never perform oral sex on her H and controlling his ejaculations...

I immediately thought.. FvCk this book!! Lol and quit reading.


----------



## jld

JukeboxHero said:


> I started reading her book way back when she initially gave me advice about my W being more dominant and suggested a W-led marriage. *At the time, I thought that's what I had.*



_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JukeboxHero

jld said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol, why the big grin, JLD?


----------



## jld

JukeboxHero said:


> Lol, why the big grin, JLD?


I thought you were being funny. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## synthetic

> I personally do not know one women who left her husband who regrets it.


Funniest and stupidest thing I've read in a while! LOL! You need to get out more dear


----------



## ocotillo

jld said:


> Angry men are not safe men.


One of the most valuable lessons I've learned on TAM is to always be happy and upbeat even when I'm truly not feeling it.

Maybe there's an element of dishonesty in that, but the benefits far outweigh that, IMO.


----------



## jld

synthetic said:


> Funniest and stupidest thing I've read in a while! LOL! You need to get out more dear


I think it is disrespectful to speak to Ele that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lila

synthetic said:


> WAWs are always one or two levels of contentment below the left-behind solely because of the *'anticipation' and 'guilt' factors*. The left-behind spouse initially suffers immensely from these 2 hindrances, but almost always recovers. *The walk-away spouse on the other hand often spends the rest of their life anticipating the green pastures and feeling a dreadful connection made of guilt and curiosity towards their past.*
> 
> I don't know about it being a win-win for all, but for a man with a walk-away wife, it's definitely a very safe winning bet.


I can't speak for the left-behind husband but your description of the walkaway wife post separation hasn't quite been my experience or those of many of the women who posted on this thread. 

I think few walkaways feel guilt. Instead, I think they feel disappointment. For me specifically, when I was considering leaving my marriage, I felt like a failure. I felt like even though I was giving it my all, it still wasn't fixing the problems. I'm sure that I'm not alone in this. It's one of the reasons why I advise women struggling with the decision to remain in bad marriages that it takes two people fully committed to make a strong relationship. One person cannot do it all. 

I also think the idea of WAWs wasting their lives away daydreaming about greener pastures is something left behinds use to make themselves better, but it's not true. It's one of the reasons why I hate the term 'walkaway' and prefer 'sick and tired'. These women are 'sick and tired' of not getting their needs met. It's not until they start dreading time alone with their husbands or when they realize that they are much happier away from their husbands that they begin detaching. 

Detaching does not translate to daydreaming about greener pastures. Detaching translates to a life without a partner, in many cases a partner that's shared a long history with the WAW. 

Leaving a relationship does not equal rainbows and unicorns. Women who have left relationships understand that, it's why the vast majority of 'sick and tired' wives struggle to make the decision to stay or go. It's why I consider it a win regardless of how others judge 'success'.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

synthetic said:


> Bring it on! I speak from experience.
> 
> For a decent man with a stable income and a moral fiber, a woman willing to leave is actually a blessing in disguise. Men are biologically wired to want to spread their sperm and explore other options. The only thing stopping them is guilt and morality (and perhaps money). When a wife willingly forces her husband on that path, well, it's party time!
> 
> I'm not denying the initial pain and suffering, but hey! That's the cost of feeling awesome again!


I can only assume you'll never marry again, which I hope is true given your view. The only thing I will sting you for is that you wait for her to leave. Men who don't have the balls to admit what you've just said and waste years of their wives' lives deserve to be tarred and feathered. You do the women you are with a disservice, as you make them live a lie that eventually comes crashing down. It's ugly and weak to waste the life of another, especially one you claimed to love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

synthetic said:


> WAWs are always one or two levels of contentment below the left-behind solely because of the 'anticipation' and 'guilt' factors. The left-behind spouse initially suffers immensely from these 2 hindrances, but almost always recovers. The walk-away spouse on the other hand often spends the rest of their life anticipating the green pastures and feeling a dreadful connection made of guilt and curiosity towards their past.
> 
> I don't know about it being a win-win for all, but for a man with a walk-away wife, it's definitely a very safe winning bet.


I don't know man. By the time a walk away spouse walks, they generally have a very fixed definition of the partner they're leaving and it's not going to change. At least not for a very long time.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

synthetic said:


> I don't know about it being a win-win for all, but for a man with a walk-away wife, it's definitely a very safe winning bet.


We're up to page 63.


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> Does it make you feel better to think that the above is true? It's not.
> 
> It might be true for some WAWs.
> It is also true that some of their husbands never recover as well.
> 
> *I personally do not know one women who left her husband who regrets it. All have done much better without the guy. Leaving bad marriages is good for both spouses.
> *
> 
> .


Interesting difference perspectives from our own little circles. Every single woman I know who filed for divorce regrets it in some way or some aspect of it. Even my close friend who divorced her husband because he came back from war broken regrets the way she handled it. Sometimes the divorce is the right thing but how the divorce was handled is the regret.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Wolf1974 said:


> Every single woman I know who filed for divorce regrets it in some way or some aspect of it. Even my close friend who divorced her husband because he came back from war broken regrets the way she handled it. Sometimes the divorce is the right thing but how the divorce was handled is the regret.


You do all understand that WAW and filing for Divorce are not the same thing. A WAW MAY file for divorce in the end, but she walked away LONG before that. Plus, doesn't a husband have to know it's going on if divorce is filed? There are 1,000,000 push-away husbands out there that have NO CLUE that their wife even checked out yet, let alone filed for anything.

Thanks for playing, but you have no clue either.

NEXT!


----------



## EleGirl

synthetic said:


> Funniest and stupidest thing I've read in a while! LOL! You need to get out more dear


I'm sorry my dear, but I don't know one women who regrets leaving their husband. Typically I do not hang around with women who would do something like leave their husband on a whim.


----------



## Thundarr

EleGirl said:


> Does it make you feel better to think that the above is true? It's not.
> 
> It might be true for some WAWs.
> It is also true that some of their husbands never recover as well.
> 
> *I personally do not know one women who left her husband who regrets it. All have done much better without the guy. Leaving bad marriages is good for both spouses.
> *
> 
> 
> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting difference perspectives from our own little circles. Every single woman I know who filed for divorce regrets it in some way or some aspect of it. Even my close friend who divorced her husband because he came back from war broken regrets the way she handled it. Sometimes the divorce is the right thing but how the divorce was handled is the regret.
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...

These do not contradict each other. I think Ele is saying most women (at least those she knows) that leave believe leaving was necessary in the end. They still may regret aspects of how they left which is what you're saying.


----------



## Wolf1974

MachoMcCoy said:


> You do all understand that WAW and filing for Divorce are not the same thing. A WAW MAY file for divorce in the end, but she walked away LONG before that. Plus, doesn't a husband have to know it's going on if divorce is filed? There are 1,000,000 push-away husbands out there that have NO CLUE that their wife even checked out yet, let alone filed for anything.
> 
> Thanks for playing, but you have no clue either.
> 
> NEXT!


Huh? Dude having read your posts on this thread I promise I understand a great deal more than you. But thanks Weren't you leaving?

Correct...next !


----------



## Wolf1974

Thundarr said:


> These do not contradict each other. I think Ele is saying most women (at least those she knows) that leave believe leaving was right. They still may regret aspects of how they left.


I know. I wasn't disagreeing with her just adding to it. If the marriage is in turmoil ending it is best most the time my opinion.


----------



## EleGirl

Thundarr said:


> These do not contradict each other. I think Ele is saying most women (at least those she knows) that leave believe leaving was necessary in the end. They still may regret aspects of how they left which is what you're saying.


I would agree with this. 

I definitely regret that my marriages ended as they did. After all, I married thinking it was for life.

But I do not regret leaving. I really had no choice, IMHO.


----------



## OpenWindows

MachoMcCoy said:


> You do all understand that WAW and filing for Divorce are not the same thing. A WAW MAY file for divorce in the end, but she walked away LONG before that. Plus, doesn't a husband have to know it's going on if divorce is filed? There are 1,000,000 push-away husbands out there that have NO CLUE that their wife even checked out yet, let alone filed for anything.
> 
> Thanks for playing, but you have no clue either.
> 
> NEXT!


You keep saying this, but nobody knows what your point is.

Yes, lots of husbands don't know their wives have checked out. Okay. We hear you.

So... do you just want to tell us over and over again that it's happening, or do you have a suggestion on what can be done about it?

What is Macho's method for solving the MACRO problem?

If you don't have a solution, perhaps you'd like to actually join the conversation instead of just dismissing other posters and triggering all over the place...


----------



## Cosmos

Thundarr said:


> These do not contradict each other. I think Ele is saying most women (at least those she knows) that leave believe leaving was necessary in the end. They still may regret aspects of how they left which is what you're saying.


I got divorced over 30 years ago (never remarried) and, whilst I've never regretted my decision to divorce, I certainly regret that it was necessary to do so.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Wolf1974 said:


> Huh? Dude having read your posts on this thread I promise I understand a great deal more than you. But thanks Weren't you leaving?
> 
> Correct...next !


OK. School me. When is a WAW a WAW? Once she files for divorce? Once she physically leaves the family home? Or when she gets so disgusted with her husband that she emotionally checks out?

Don't bother answering. It's a trick question. Because the correct conflicts with your post about divorce.

I've FORGOTTEN more about WAW's than you ever (think you) knew.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

OpenWindows said:


> What is Macho's method for solving the MACRO problem?
> 
> If you don't have a solution, perhaps you'd like to actually join the conversation instead of just dismissing other posters and triggering all over the place...


No, I don't have a solution. How can we have a solution when nobody understands the dynamic?

You have to understand the problem before there can be a solution. And you see the anger aimed at me when I say something people disagree with (which is everything, evidently)? Nobody wants to find a cause here. Nobody wants to find a solution here. Everybody wants to win.

And when I say "I am a push-away husband, I pushed away my wife. She is gone and it killed me. I nearly destroyed my family. Please let me share my experiences so that I can help others not make the same mistake".

So far so good. But to tell my story, I need to explain HOW I pushed away my wife. That's when the hi-fives start.

"SEE!! You were just an a$$hole. You deserved it. And now that you lost her you're crying about it. Well it's too late, D-bag. YOU GOT WHAT YOU DESERVED".

I'm low hanging fruit for this blame game. It's easy to "win" with an admitted (pick your favorite push-away husband bad trait). And when you are in a game to "win", just get rid of the easy competition early.

No, I can't offer up solutions. I don't have any. But I will go against my promises to the board in general and a private messenger to leave this thread. It's too important. And no, I will not offer solutions. I will purely continue to post comments that PROVE that most of you have NO CLUE what you are talking about.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Now, where was I? Page 11?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Macho- It is not your reasons why your wife became a WAW that people are picking at.
You are deciding that you know all about all WAW and all men of WAWs and everyone else just doesn't get it but then you haven't actually given any explanation or anything other than being really, really upset and no one even knows why. 

All WAWs are different. All their husbands are different. All the ways they "walk" are different and for different reasons. Your wife and you may be one example of a WAW but you haven't even really explained your situation well enough for people to know your story.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

MachoMcCoy said:


> We're up to page 63.


You think he may be a troll?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OpenWindows

Macho, we get angry at you because you're throwing anger at us. It's a cycle. And then you tell us all that we're wrong and you're right, because you lived it... but we lived it too. Our stories are all different, and our comments about our own push-away husbands are not about YOU, but you seem to take them that way.

I believe you. I believe that you pushed your wife away, and that you're in pain. I believe she was in pain too. I'd like to know your story, but I'm having trouble picking it out from all the anger and accusations and trying so hard to prove everyone else is wrong. You're combing through these pages to find quotes so you can say "This is wrong, NEXT!" Maybe you could try telling us what is RIGHT.

My main question for you, and this is meant to be a serious question and not a personal attack, is this...

You keep talking about how we need to educate people about this problem, and how we don't really understand the problem. I know enough about my situation to know what I would like to teach my daughters. What would you teach your (potential) sons? What do you wish your father had taught you, to help you prevent what happened?


----------



## Cosmos

The Ignore facility is such a useful tool. It's a pity that it doesn't filter out quotes from those on the 'Ignore List,' though...


----------



## OpenWindows

I don't really want to ignore him (yet). I want to hear his side. I wish he'd share it, but I think this thread is just triggering him too much for him to communicate clearly.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

SurpriseMyself said:


> You think he may be a troll?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



THAT may cause me to leave. Not because I was called a name (yet again). But to be a troll, I would obviously just be doing all of this for fun and my opinion must be SO FAR gone that I am surely delusional. Is that what you all see? Am I not conveying my passion for this subject adequately?

YOU STARTED THIS THREAD!!!! You are the expert. You told us "How to prevent a walk-away-wife". Am I so far off that you would think I'm trolling?

Just say the word and I'm gone. You have us men on the run anyhow. I've been keeping score:

Posters saying the men win - 82
Posters who think the gals win - 197
Posters who think we are actually trying to solve this problem and not just "win" - 0


----------



## Cosmos

OpenWindows said:


> *I don't really want to ignore him (yet). * I want to hear his side. I wish he'd share it, but I think this thread is just triggering him too much for him to communicate clearly.


I do. He's free to start his own thread if he wants to, but no; he'd rather use this one to sneer and jab at people whilst making vague references to his own situation.

Guess I'd better leave this thread myself, then, as the mods clearly aren't interested in shutting him up.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

OpenWindows said:


> You keep talking about how we need to educate people about this problem, and how we don't really understand the problem. I know enough about my situation to know what I would like to teach my daughters. What would you teach your (potential) sons? What do you wish your father had taught you, to help you prevent what happened?


See post 953.

I have no solution. I just want people to LOOK for a solution and not just point fingers. Almost 1000 posts, and a MASSIVE % are attempts to win the argument by placing blame on the other side.

What would I do? Look for a cause and solution. That is NOBODY's goal here.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

Cosmos said:


> as the mods clearly aren't interested in shutting him up.


You must be a Democrat.


----------



## OpenWindows

MachoMcCoy said:


> See post 953.
> 
> I have no solution. I just want people to LOOK for a solution and not just point fingers. Almost 1000 posts, and a MASSIVE % are attempts to win the argument by placing blame on the other side.
> 
> What would I do? Look for a cause and solution. That is NOBODY's goal here.


My goal is a solution, but I'm not going to argue with you on that, because I don't think I could change your mind no matter what I say.

There's really NOTHING you wish you'd known? Nothing at all? You say women are just blaming men and not thinking about their own contributions. But I see several women on this thread, myself included, owning at least part of what they did to cause the situation. I see you owning the fact that you pushed your wife away, but not the reasons why.

But I'm not sure you really want to be questioned on your reasons. I'll say it again - I would like to hear your side. But I'm not going to chase you around and beg for it. I've asked you several direct questions in this thread, and haven't gotten many direct answers.

Share if you want, but try to be respectful of the other human beings on this thread either way.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

MachoMcCoy said:


> See post 953.
> 
> I have no solution. I just want people to LOOK for a solution and not just point fingers. Almost 1000 posts, and a MASSIVE % are attempts to win the argument by placing blame on the other side.
> 
> What would I do? Look for a cause and solution. That is NOBODY's goal here.


It's ok to not have a solution but how about tone it back about 5 notches and explain your POV because I still do not even know what it is. 

The problem is that we have BTDT with our own husbands and tried all the "solutions", we tried all the "101 ways to get your husband to listen to you" That is what we have been discussing. We've also been discussing our various causes, our reasons why we got to that point. 

So you if you have something to offer about how "hey guys, I was the husband. Here's what I would have done differently, here's what may have worked to get through to me, here's the problems with what she was trying" I'm all ears.

Is your opinion that the men are not to blame in the WAW situation? Is that what you are trying to say?


----------



## Satya

Macho, there's no need for you to get upset at others because of your own hurt over your personal experiences, unless you're purposely trying to enrage posters, in which case, you are making an effort to bait and would be considered a troll in my book.

But I honestly don't think you're a troll. I think that maybe you need to actually step away from this post, as you were threatening to do some pages back. Somethings rubbed you the wrong way.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I have to lol a little to myself as this demonstrates a little of what some WAWs are talking about. 

Trying to communicate, being met with defensiveness but no concrete feedback about things and it just goes around and around with nothing getting through from either party.


----------



## jld

I think OpenWindows is right that you are hurting, Macho McCoy. We are sympathetic to genuine pain, and not just ego protection.

I don't usually think about the pain men might feel with a WAW, because to me, men just seem so powerful. It is hard for me to understand how women, who I see as vulnerable, can actually hurt men, who I see as invulnerable, just so darn powerful and impregnable.

If you could open your heart and show your pain, without anger, maybe you could help me understand men's vulnerability better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ocotillo

MachoMcCoy said:


> What would I do? Look for a cause and solution. That is NOBODY's goal here.


That's not entirely true. Some of us have followed this thread; tried to understand the phenomenon, tried to differentiate between causes and symptoms for the sake of human interest and knowledge. 

--No blame in that.


----------



## Blondilocks

MachoMcCoy said:


> See post 953.
> 
> I have no solution. I just want people to LOOK for a solution and not just point fingers. Almost 1000 posts, and a MASSIVE % are attempts to win the argument by placing blame on the other side.
> 
> What would I do? Look for a cause and solution. That is NOBODY's goal here.


I think the problem here is that you entered this thread with the assumption that it was an argument.

As you've stated, you have no solutions (even though you have led fellow members to believe otherwise.) You won't share your story other than a few bits which you sarcastically beat yourself up over.

Look for a cause and solution? That isn't the purpose of this thread and, apparently, it isn't one of your goals either.

How about exploring causes and solutions with an attitude of contribution rather than snide, mean, sarcastic remarks which help no one except yourself.


----------



## turnera

> What would I do? Look for a cause and solution. That is NOBODY's goal here.


IDK, I have discussed with others here causes for my WAW leaning - H thinking he's right and I'm wrong all the time - and possible solutions - learning to stand up for myself, more therapy, stop enabling...all intended to get him to WAKE UP and see how unhappy I am and how likely I am to leave. Just a month ago I told him if I was out of debt, I'd be packing. And last night, he sat on the couch and saw the THREE (not two) sets of dirty socks he'd left there, and I said 'those are the socks you left that you agreed a month ago to stop leaving there so I wouldn't be so unhappy.' (they're still there this morning)

What else is there? Other than actually leaving, that is?


----------



## Wolf1974

MachoMcCoy said:


> OK. School me. When is a WAW a WAW? Once she files for divorce? Once she physically leaves the family home? Or when she gets so disgusted with her husband that she emotionally checks out?
> 
> Don't bother answering. It's a trick question. Because the correct conflicts with your post about divorce.
> 
> I've FORGOTTEN more about WAW's than you ever (think you) knew.


Wow dude. Therapy.


----------



## Wolf1974

SurpriseMyself said:


> You think he may be a troll?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or a 12 year old who hasn't had a nap...hard to tell. In any case those who speak with no content have nothing to offer.


----------



## JukeboxHero

turnera said:


> IDK, I have discussed with others here causes for my WAW leaning - H thinking he's right and I'm wrong all the time - and possible solutions - learning to stand up for myself, more therapy, stop enabling...all intended to get him to WAKE UP and see how unhappy I am and how likely I am to leave. Just a month ago I told him if I was out of debt, I'd be packing. And last night, he sat on the couch and saw the THREE (not two) sets of dirty socks he'd left there, and I said 'those are the socks you left that you agreed a month ago to stop leaving there so I wouldn't be so unhappy.' (they're still there this morning)
> 
> What else is there? Other than actually leaving, that is?


I know what you need to do, @turnera. When he leaves his socks there, remind him to remove them. If he ignores you/them for X hrs(we'll say give him 24 hrs), hide his socks until he doesn't have anymore. 

Eventually, he'll run out of socks and probably realize he shouldn't leave them laying around because apparently, Underwear Gnomes aren't partial to undies only....


----------



## turnera

I used to do that, JBH. 

I've also tried throwing his crap onto his side of the bed, putting them on the floor on his side of the bed, into a box on his side of the bed. I guess the 5 year old in him knows I'll eventually do something with it.

So you're right. May be time to pull that trick out again. Thanks.

I posted a while back that I've told him that I should ask for something I DON'T want done, because I have a better chance of what I really want done to be what he chooses to do instead, whenever I ask for something. Yesterday morning, I asked him if we could get my 1995 car running because he's agreed to sell it so he can buy a new used car. The 1995 is the one he wouldn't sell so he could have it to use in case the 2005 car he drives stops running, but which he's left to basically rot; and which he PROMISED to sell when I got my last car two years ago, and didn't. 

Anyway, I asked him if we could work on it and get it running. "No." Next thing I know, he's up in the attic doing god knows what; spent the whole day up there. Sigh. Funny the patterns you can see if you stay long enough.


----------



## jld

I would not do any "tricks." I would just forget about his socks, entirely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ms. GP

jld said:


> I don't usually think about the pain men might feel with a WAW, because to me, men just seem so powerful. It is hard for me to understand how women, who I see as vulnerable, can actually hurt men, who I see as invulnerable, just so darn powerful and impregnable.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow! You make men sound like sociopaths here! I see it differently. Of course, men just like women can be hurt. Anger is a natural emotion to feel after being hurt. Heck, it's one of the few emotions that are socially acceptable for men to show. Of course, if someone wants to be heard they should dial it down a few notches before speaking.

What I hear in this thread, is as women are providing more financial support these days they are asking for more domestic support in return. Makes sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OpenWindows

Ms. GP said:


> What I hear in this thread, is as women are providing more financial support these days they are asking for more domestic support in return. Makes sense.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Truth.

We're in the process of shifting the status quo, as a society. It's a painful process, and we're still learning to navigate it. Neither gender has fully caught up to the new reality.


----------



## jld

Ms. GP said:


> Wow! You make men sound like sociopaths here! I see it differently. Of course, men just like women can be hurt. Anger is a natural emotion to feel after being hurt. Heck, it's one of the few emotions that are socially acceptable for men to show. Of course, if someone wants to be heard they should dial it down a few notches before speaking.


I don't know much about sociopaths. I do think of men as powerful, though. My dad was very powerful to me, and I tend to view men, including my husband, in that light.

MEM says that anger is a cover for hurt and fear. I think it would be good for all of us to acknowledge our hurt and fear when we feel angry.



> What I hear in this thread, is as women are providing more financial support these days they are asking for more domestic support in return. Makes sense.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. I would guess that younger men are more used to this, as their mothers likely worked outside their home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

Wolf1974 said:


> those who speak with no content have nothing to offer.


This x1000.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

OpenWindows said:


> Truth.
> 
> We're in the process of shifting the status quo, as a society. It's a painful process, and we're still learning to navigate it. Neither gender has fully caught up to the new reality.


OW yes this is happening within my family
Our early years of raising children, until all of our kids were in school I was the only one working (outside of the home) Sometimes two jobs.

Then my wife re entered the work force

I am guilty of not putting in the effort in domestic duties inside the home.As the years went on I allowed myself to rationalize....If she wants help she will ask for it.If my wife did not ask for it I deluded my self into thinking.....my wife is only trying to prove she can do things and not need me (and I was inclined to let her). Which I would say she did prove that.

Years later as I could feel thing were not what they should be for us and was certain she would walk That's when I changed. Hence my user name "Just got it 55".

The domestic duties were not the genesis of this but it became a part of if.Thankfully I caught on before it was too late.

Now I witness my son's being really good husbands in this area.My oldest has three children and is also very active in parenting.

My son in law is also very helpful in the domestic area. His Mother and sister are actually shocked he is like this.( Only son in an Italian family )

So I do believe it is a generational thing and expectations are changing.I do think some tasks are more gender specific.I wouldn't expect my daughters to climb up on the roof, but you know what.....Why not?

In the future you can't have it both ways.

55


----------



## turnera

Or...your daughter AND future SIL could both be slobs...god help that family, lol.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Is your opinion that the men are not to blame in the WAW situation? Is that what you are trying to say?


Post 953. Still placing blame.


----------



## jld

just got it 55 said:


> So I do believe it is a generational thing and expectations are changing.I do think some tasks are more gender specific.I wouldn't expect my daughters to climb up on the roof, but you know what.....Why not?
> 
> In the future you can't have it both ways.
> 
> 55


You can have whatever you both agree to.

My husband wanted to marry me and have children with me. He wanted me to breastfeed and homeschool them. Okay.

In exchange, I got lifetime financial support. Okay!

In our case, my husband genuinely likes manual labor. He does not ask me to do yard work or snow shoveling or help fix anything. He is also the first to pick up a towel if I am washing dishes, or to cheerfully start sweeping if he feels the floors need it. No resentment.

Dug and I are certainly physically attracted to each other. But these qualities of his, plus his values, attract me way more to him than what he looks like. I am not sure why people put so much emphasis on physical attraction, when, to quote something I read once, "Kindness and compassion count a lot more than good looks after the first year of marriage."


----------



## Ms. GP

I agree. Whatever works for the two people involved. My situation is a little different. My husband and I married right before I started graduate school. He supported me through school with the expectation that I would be the breadwinner when I got out. I'm OK with that. I like the idea of being able to financially support the family if my husband were to lose his job. (Which has happened a couple of times over the years)

As far as domestic support goes, I'm embarrassed to say the majority of it comes from my mother in law. Nobody asked her to help clean and for many years it was quite femasculating (if that's a word!! Lol) but I've learned to swallow my pride and appreciate the help but certainly not expect any of it. As far as my husband and I go, I look at it like if the adults of the house are both off work, we can spend one or two hours on the house tops, then spend the rest of the day relaxing and having fun as family or as a couple. The house isn't spotless but the kids are going to school in dirty underwear either!! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

I'd LOVE to hear from some walk away husbands out there. 

Will a few of you please come forward and share you stories?


----------



## jld

BetrayedDad said:


> I'd LOVE to hear from some walk away husbands out there.
> 
> Will a few of you please come forward and share you stories?


How about starting a new thread?


----------



## tech-novelist

BetrayedDad said:


> I'd LOVE to hear from some walk away husbands out there.
> 
> Will a few of you please come forward and share you stories?


I guess I'm one. Are you familiar with my story, or should I post it here?


----------



## BetrayedDad

jld said:


> How about starting a new thread?


Why? We'd all like to know.

Isn't this thread about walkaway spouse prevention?


----------



## BetrayedDad

technovelist said:


> I guess I'm one. Are you familiar with my story, or should I post it here?


If you haven't before then please do. If it's on TAM already a link with a brief summation would be great. I apologize I am not familiar with it.

Thank you Tech!


----------



## jld

BetrayedDad said:


> Why? We'd all like to know.


You could focus on walkaway husbands.


----------



## tech-novelist

BetrayedDad said:


> If you haven't before then please do. If it's on TAM already a link with a brief summation would be great. I apologize I am not familiar with it.
> 
> Thank you Tech!


Ok, here goes.

My wife S and I met online. I wasn't looking for anything personal, just someone to help me by acting as a "test reader" for a technical book I was writing. 

We spent about 6 months on that project, and for the first 3 months or so, I was enormously careful not to get into any personal discussions, since both of us were married and I took my vows seriously.

However, at some point in the project, S got annoyed at the fact that she was doing all this work for someone who wrote "like a robot", as she described it. She knew I had a pretty good sense of humor because I had used it in an apparently fairly successful attempt to keep the very technical material from being as dry as dust. So why was I being so "robotic" with her?

The answer, of course, is as I said before: I was being careful not to get into personal discussions because I was married and wanted to remain faithful.

But her sister egged her on to get some personal reaction to me, including getting her to send me a (perfectly safe for work) picture of her, and asking for some personal interaction with me.

So I sent her an essay that I had written about a college reunion, which was full of emotional reactions that I had experienced during the reunion. This made it clear to her that I was far from robotic, but nothing further developed for another month or so.

Then one night, I was having chest pains, and my wife said "Don't wake me up if you have to drive yourself to the hospital."

S is an RN, so I called her for advice, and after describing my symptoms, she said "It doesn't sound like a heart attack, but if you need anything, call me."

After I hung up the phone, it occurred to me that I was married to the wrong person.

So I called her back and asked her "If we were both single, would you be interested in a more personal relationship with me?"

There was a long silence, and I said "If that was the wrong question, forget I asked it." She said "No, it's okay. Yes, I would."

Then I went into the other room and told my wife I wanted a divorce. I proposed marriage to S the next day, if I recall correctly.

This probably seems a bit risky, especially considering that we had not met yet, although we had spoken on the phone a few times.

She said, "We have to meet first before I can answer that." So we made plans to meet, which were a bit complicated by the fact that she hadn't told her husband about this situation, although he knew about the book project.

We met a couple of months later, and things went very well. She wanted to wait to initiate her divorce until her daughter graduated from high school the next summer, but I didn't want to wait, and talked her into starting it right away, which I probably should not have done.

My divorce took about a year, as there was a waiting period and I got some resistance from my wife, although I didn't try to get any of her assets, which were much greater than mine. S also bent over backwards to be fair to her husband, with my complete support, since after all it wasn't his idea to get divorced. Why should it be worse for him than it had to be?

All this started 20 years ago, and we have been married for 18 years, at least as happily as anyone else I know.


----------



## Adelais

turnera said:


> I used to do that, JBH.
> 
> I've also tried throwing his crap onto his side of the bed, putting them on the floor on his side of the bed, into a box on his side of the bed. I guess the 5 year old in him knows I'll eventually do something with it.
> 
> So you're right. May be time to pull that trick out again. Thanks.
> 
> I posted a while back that I've told him that I should ask for something I DON'T want done, because I have a better chance of what I really want done to be what he chooses to do instead, whenever I ask for something. Yesterday morning, I asked him if we could get my 1995 car running because he's agreed to sell it so he can buy a new used car. The 1995 is the one he wouldn't sell so he could have it to use in case the 2005 car he drives stops running, but which he's left to basically rot; and which he PROMISED to sell when I got my last car two years ago, and didn't.
> 
> Anyway, I asked him if we could work on it and get it running. "No." Next thing I know, he's up in the attic doing god knows what; spent the whole day up there. Sigh. Funny the patterns you can see if you stay long enough.


I probably missed when you said it, but in case you didn't I'll say it.

Your husband has a severe case of passive agressiveness.


----------



## BetrayedDad

jld said:


> You could focus on walkaway husbands.


I prefer to focus on PEOPLE rather than gender driven ideology.


----------



## jld

BetrayedDad said:


> I prefer to focus on PEOPLE rather than gender driven ideology.


Just trying to keep the title accurate. It's helpful when people make searches looking for advice or specific information.

But it's up to you.


----------



## BetrayedDad

jld said:


> Just trying to keep the title accurate. It's helpful when people make searches looking for advice or specific information.
> 
> But it's up to you.


I see no harm after almost a 1,000 posts for a few insites from a different perspective. Do you?


----------



## jld

BetrayedDad said:


> I see no harm after almost a 1,000 posts for a few insites from a different perspective. Do you?


Just thought people specifically looking for info on walkaway husbands might find it helpful. Not sure they would think to look at the end of a thread on walkaway wives for that. 

Jmo.


----------



## BetrayedDad

technovelist said:


> Ok, here goes.
> 
> My wife S and I met online. I wasn't looking for anything personal, just someone to help me by acting as a "test reader" for a technical book I was writing.
> 
> We spent about 6 months on that project, and for the first 3 months or so, I was enormously careful not to get into any personal discussions, since both of us were married and I took my vows seriously.
> 
> However, at some point in the project, S got annoyed at the fact that she was doing all this work for someone who wrote "like a robot", as she described it. She knew I had a pretty good sense of humor because I had used it in an apparently fairly successful attempt to keep the very technical material from being as dry as dust. So why was I being so "robotic" with her?
> 
> The answer, of course, is as I said before: I was being careful not to get into personal discussions because I was married and wanted to remain faithful.
> 
> But her sister egged her on to get some personal reaction to me, including getting her to send me a (perfectly safe for work) picture of her, and asking for some personal interaction with me.
> 
> So I sent her an essay that I had written about a college reunion, which was full of emotional reactions that I had experienced during the reunion. This made it clear to her that I was far from robotic, but nothing further developed for another month or so.
> 
> Then one night, I was having chest pains, and my wife said "Don't wake me up if you have to drive yourself to the hospital."
> 
> S is an RN, so I called her for advice, and after describing my symptoms, she said "It doesn't sound like a heart attack, but if you need anything, call me."
> 
> After I hung up the phone, it occurred to me that I was married to the wrong person.
> 
> So I called her back and asked her "If we were both single, would you be interested in a more personal relationship with me?"
> 
> There was a long silence, and I said "If that was the wrong question, forget I asked it." She said "No, it's okay. Yes, I would."
> 
> Then I went into the other room and told my wife I wanted a divorce. I proposed marriage to S the next day, if I recall correctly.
> 
> This probably seems a bit risky, especially considering that we had not met yet, although we had spoken on the phone a few times.
> 
> She said, "We have to meet first before I can answer that." So we made plans to meet, which were a bit complicated by the fact that she hadn't told her husband about this situation, although he knew about the book project.
> 
> We met a couple of months later, and things went very well. She wanted to wait to initiate her divorce until her daughter graduated from high school the next summer, but I didn't want to wait, and talked her into starting it right away, which I probably should not have done.
> 
> My divorce took about a year, as there was a waiting period and I got some resistance from my wife, although I didn't try to get any of her assets, which were much greater than mine. S also bent over backwards to be fair to her husband, with my complete support, since after all it wasn't his idea to get divorced. Why should it be worse for him than it had to be?
> 
> All this started 20 years ago, and we have been married for 18 years, at least as happily as anyone else I know.


Wow.

Do you think had you not met S you would have not walked away from your wife?

Were you contemplating it for some time prior or did you have an "ah ha" moment?


----------



## BetrayedDad

jld said:


> Just thought people specifically looking for info on walkaway husbands might find it helpful. Not sure they would think to look at the end of a thread on walkaway wives for that.
> 
> Jmo.


Sometimes you find things in the places you least suspect them.


----------



## lifeistooshort

technovelist said:


> I guess I'm one. Are you familiar with my story, or should I post it here?


I'm not, or i don't remember. Please post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

Besides I think walk away spouse prevention is at the heart of this thread. Whether it's from a male, female, or goats perspective is a secondary point.


----------



## lifeistooshort

technovelist said:


> Ok, here goes.
> 
> My wife S and I met online. I wasn't looking for anything personal, just someone to help me by acting as a "test reader" for a technical book I was writing.
> 
> We spent about 6 months on that project, and for the first 3 months or so, I was enormously careful not to get into any personal discussions, since both of us were married and I took my vows seriously.
> 
> However, at some point in the project, S got annoyed at the fact that she was doing all this work for someone who wrote "like a robot", as she described it. She knew I had a pretty good sense of humor because I had used it in an apparently fairly successful attempt to keep the very technical material from being as dry as dust. So why was I being so "robotic" with her?
> 
> The answer, of course, is as I said before: I was being careful not to get into personal discussions because I was married and wanted to remain faithful.
> 
> But her sister egged her on to get some personal reaction to me, including getting her to send me a (perfectly safe for work) picture of her, and asking for some personal interaction with me.
> 
> So I sent her an essay that I had written about a college reunion, which was full of emotional reactions that I had experienced during the reunion. This made it clear to her that I was far from robotic, but nothing further developed for another month or so.
> 
> Then one night, I was having chest pains, and my wife said "Don't wake me up if you have to drive yourself to the hospital."
> 
> S is an RN, so I called her for advice, and after describing my symptoms, she said "It doesn't sound like a heart attack, but if you need anything, call me."
> 
> After I hung up the phone, it occurred to me that I was married to the wrong person.
> 
> So I called her back and asked her "If we were both single, would you be interested in a more personal relationship with me?"
> 
> There was a long silence, and I said "If that was the wrong question, forget I asked it." She said "No, it's okay. Yes, I would."
> 
> Then I went into the other room and told my wife I wanted a divorce. I proposed marriage to S the next day, if I recall correctly.
> 
> This probably seems a bit risky, especially considering that we had not met yet, although we had spoken on the phone a few times.
> 
> She said, "We have to meet first before I can answer that." So we made plans to meet, which were a bit complicated by the fact that she hadn't told her husband about this situation, although he knew about the book project.
> 
> We met a couple of months later, and things went very well. She wanted to wait to initiate her divorce until her daughter graduated from high school the next summer, but I didn't want to wait, and talked her into starting it right away, which I probably should not have done.
> 
> My divorce took about a year, as there was a waiting period and I got some resistance from my wife, although I didn't try to get any of her assets, which were much greater than mine. S also bent over backwards to be fair to her husband, with my complete support, since after all it wasn't his idea to get divorced. Why should it be worse for him than it had to be?
> 
> All this started 20 years ago, and we have been married for 18 years, at least as happily as anyone else I know.



Just saw this.

What was wrong with your first marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

technovelist- that sounds like an affair story, not a WAH story but I'm guessing the walking away (emotionally) happened first in your marriage? Walk away spouses are very vulnerable for affairs.


----------



## tech-novelist

BetrayedDad said:


> Wow.
> 
> Do you think had you not met S you would have not walked away from your wife?
> 
> Were you contemplating it for some time prior or did you have an "ah ha" moment?


I'd thought about it quite a bit, but it never got so bad that I thought it was worth just leaving with nowhere to go.


----------



## tech-novelist

lifeistooshort said:


> Just saw this.
> 
> What was wrong with your first marriage?


A number of things. Probably the most significant was that my first wife had a lot of trouble with intimacy. Not just sex, but that also.

After I left and we got divorced, she admitted to having mistreated me during our marriage. (She also asked me for dating advice, which I gave to the best of my ability, being over my anger with her at that point.)

If there's anything more specific you want to know, ask and I'll answer if possible.


----------



## tech-novelist

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> technovelist- that sounds like an affair story, not a WAH story but I'm guessing the walking away (emotionally) happened first in your marriage? Walk away spouses are very vulnerable for affairs.


Well, it's not the typical affair story you see here, that's for sure. I didn't hide anything from her, just told her straight out that I wanted a divorce.

And at that point I don't even think it was an EA, not that I knew what that was at the time anyway. So I'm not sure it really counts as an affair, but maybe I'm biased?


----------



## john117

I would respond with my not so secret plan to walk in 16 months but I'm so beat up... Just washed 2000 sq ft of carpet with my trusty Hoover steamer vac. 

Walking away makes sense from a rational perspective regardless of gender. If you're not getting what you want in a relationship, there comes a point of no return. If you have done your share and can keep your head up, that's all there is to it. 

I have always advocated to know what you're up against. If it can be fixed, great. If not... Own your stuff and be a nice person, but at the end of the day life is not an NP-complete problem.


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## MachoMcCoy

There is no such thing as a walk-away-husband. To say that there is shows a serious lack of understanding of the issue. It's a chick thing.

SORRY!!! Quick edit before I am scalped.

Waking away is a chick thing because pushing away is a guy thing.


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## jdawg2015

So what brought you to TAM?

Most of us here are because we are part of the land of misfit toys:grin2:



technovelist said:


> A number of things. Probably the most significant was that my first wife had a lot of trouble with intimacy. Not just sex, but that also.
> 
> After I left and we got divorced, she admitted to having mistreated me during our marriage. (She also asked me for dating advice, which I gave to the best of my ability, being over my anger with her at that point.)
> 
> If there's anything more specific you want to know, ask and I'll answer if possible.


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## jdawg2015

Lot of truth to this.

But result is from the same mechanism. Giving up.



MachoMcCoy said:


> There is no such thing as a walk-away-husband. To say that there is shows a serious lack of understanding of the issue. It's a chick thing.
> 
> SORRY!!! Quick edit before I am scalped.
> 
> Waking away is a chick thing because pushing away is a guy thing.


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## OpenWindows

There are definitely women who push their husbands away, and men who get tired of it and walk. It just tends to manifest a little differently, and often ends up looking like a Mr. Nice Guy in a sexless marriage.

Sometimes it's the man trying so hard to hold the marriage together while his wife ignores him. I think men are less likely to go through the "checking out, going through the motions" process, but I know they sometimes do because I've seen it. 

I have a friend who's probably close to being a walkaway husband. Swap the genders on some of the stories here, and they could easily be his.


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## jld

technovelist said:


> Well, it's not the typical affair story you see here, that's for sure. I didn't hide anything from her, just told her straight out that I wanted a divorce.
> 
> And at that point I don't even think it was an EA, not that I knew what that was at the time anyway. So I'm not sure it really counts as an affair, but maybe I'm biased?


You were both still married, and you asked your current wife if you were both single, would she accept to partner with you. And when she said yes, you filed the next day.

Yeah, I think that qualifies as an affair.

"An affair is a sexual relationship, romantic friendship, or passionate attachment between two people without the other spouse knowing."

It is not like you went to your first wife, explained the feelings you were having, and then asked her if it would be okay for you to ask your current wife that question, right?

If your first wife had done to you exactly what you did to her, would you not feel betrayed?

You basically had someone waiting in the wings. To me that looks like a WH, not a WAH.

Not that you did not have your reasons. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

jdawg2015 said:


> Lot of truth to this.
> 
> But result is from the same mechanism. Giving up.


Giving up after realizing that the future, rather than the present, is unsustainable. 

The present can be patched together with some marital bailing wire and duct tape but those lose their magic bonding powers at some point. 

Too many marriages work like pro sports, as in, what have you done for me lately. In reality its the future that we can't even see that's the bigger concern. 

That's my philosophy at least.


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## OpenWindows

jld said:


> You were both still married, and you asked your current wife if you were both single, would she accept to partner with you. And when she said yes, you filed the next day.
> 
> Yeah, I think that qualifies as an affair.
> 
> "An affair is a sexual relationship, romantic friendship, or passionate attachment between two people without the other spouse knowing."
> 
> It is not like you went to your first wife, explained the feelings you were having, and then asked her if it would be okay for you to ask your current wife that question, right?
> 
> If your first wife had done to you exactly what you did to her, would you not feel betrayed?
> 
> You basically had someone waiting in the wings. To me that looks like a WH, not a WAH.
> 
> Not that you did not have your reasons.


That's interesting. I don't see it as an affair, if they weren't carrying on behind first wife's back. I see it as him leaving instead of cheating.

To me, asking first wife if she was okay with the situation only applies if he wanted to stay. After all, if he didn't really want to stay, and he asked for her blessing, and she said no... what purpose would that serve? Should he stay just because she wants him to, even though he's not happy with her? They both have to be invested in fixing it, and it sounds like he was past that point.


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## jld

OpenWindows said:


> That's interesting. I don't see it as an affair, if they weren't carrying on behind first wife's back. I see it as him leaving instead of cheating.
> 
> To me, asking first wife if she was okay with the situation only applies if he wanted to stay. After all, if he didn't really want to stay, and he asked for her blessing, and she said no... what purpose would that serve? Should he stay just because she wants him to, even though he's not happy with her? They both have to be invested in fixing it, and it sounds like he was past that point.


She did not know about it. That is a key part of an affair, according to that definition I found, anyway. 

And he was starting something with another woman. It was basically a proposal. To me that qualifies as "carrying on."

I agree he should not have stayed. But I think the way he left was not without guile. 

He could have filed first and told the other woman he had. He could have then asked her if she wanted to be with him. Even that is morally questionable, though.

I believe he mentioned not feeling comfortable leaving his first wife without another woman waiting.

I think people have their reasons for having affairs, or for making an arrangement with someone before they leave their spouse. But that makes them a WS, not a WAS.


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## Happilymarried25

Most men who "walk away" walk away into another women arms. They don't like to leave and be alone, they want to know there is someone else there. That's where men and women differ, women are more likely to leave to be alone while men are more likely to leave to be with another women. I don't know any women who left their husband to be with another men while I know a few men who left their wives to be with another women. That doesn't mean all men leave their wives to be with another women they leave for other reasons like the wife has an affair/lack of sex/abuse.


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## OpenWindows

Happilymarried25 said:


> Most men who "walk away" walk away into another women arms. They don't like to leave and be alone, they want to know there is someone else there. That's where men and women differ, women are more likely to leave to be alone while men are more likely to leave to be with another women. I don't know any women who left their husband to be with another men while I know a few men who left their wives to be with another women. That doesn't mean all men leave their wives to be with another women they leave for other reasons like the wife has an affair/lack of sex/abuse.


I wonder if that's part of the reason why so many men have trouble believing that their wives are leaving to be alone. My XH didn't believe it, and that feeling seems to be common among husbands of WAW. Even his single and married friends told him I couldn't possibly be leaving to be alone.

It seems to be a really common philosophy among men, that a woman only leaves if there's another man in the wings. But I've seen lots of women leave without having a man lined up, so I've often wondered where guys get that idea. Maybe those guys are projecting their own feelings onto their wives.


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## jld

OpenWindows said:


> It seems to be a really common philosophy among men, that a woman only leaves if there's another man in the wings. . . . Maybe those guys are projecting their own feelings onto their wives.


I think it is totally projection.


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## turnera

OpenWindows said:


> I wonder if that's part of the reason why so many men have trouble believing that their wives are leaving to be alone. My XH didn't believe it, and that feeling seems to be common among husbands of WAW. Even his single and married friends told him I couldn't possibly be leaving to be alone.
> 
> It seems to be a really common philosophy among men, that a woman only leaves if there's another man in the wings. But I've seen lots of women leave without having a man lined up, so I've often wondered where guys get that idea. Maybe those guys are projecting their own feelings onto their wives.


Men grow up with a woman 'taking care of' him. His mom. Most can't help but expect and want another woman to BE that role in his life. I always wanted to have a few boys so I could raise them to take care of themselves and not expect it from a woman.

Many women grow up learning TO take care of people, and do so, thinking that's the path to happiness...and 10, 20 years down the road when everything they do is taken for granted, usually by everyone in the family, when they've usually put many if not most of their own dreams and goals on hold TO take care of those people, they reach their full maturity and start to wonder what the hell they're getting out of it all. 

And men typically get their emotional connection from sex, while women give sex to get the emotional connection. But when those men are getting THEIR needs met - sex, domestic support - they often take the woman for granted and subconsciously figure why bother with the talking, the romance, the surprises, the dates...after all, HE's happy and she's giving sex, so she must be happy, too.

And eventually, she just falls out of love, waiting for the stuff he gave her when dating (talking, romance, surprises, dates) while still meeting his needs. And figures...I can do all this work for MYSELF and not keep getting disappointed and frustrated. What do I need HIM for? 

So she sure as hell isn't going to go running to another man, just so she can give of herself yet again.

Of course this doesn't apply to affairs. The women in these cases are being wooed by the OM, promised all the talking and surprises and romance), so she thinks, stupidly, if I leave THIS guy who ignores me, THAT guy will give me what I've been hoping for all along. Thus the mantra to make sure your marriage is worth her staying for.


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## OpenWindows

Turnera, there's a lot of truth there. I remember having an "aha moment" when I realized that if I left, I would be doing less work for roughly the same payoff, without the disappointment and frustration. I started to wonder what he was actually doing for me... And when I really did the math, it turned out to be not much at all.

One year later, being a single mother of two small children is less work and less stress than my marriage was, and I have more free time.


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## Middle of Everything

68 pages? Good lord. I quickly read the OP and I think most would have taken much more away from it if one huge mistake wasnt made. The one mistake Ive learned on TAM can piss people off quicker than any and make most people ignore nearly everything you say.

MEN............
WOMEN.............

They arent all the same. Its SOME men, SOME women. Your husband/wife isnt everyone else. And nothing will turn people off to what you are saying quicker.


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## tech-novelist

jld said:


> You were both still married, and you asked your current wife if you were both single, would she accept to partner with you. And when she said yes, you filed the next day.
> 
> Yeah, I think that qualifies as an affair.
> 
> "An affair is a sexual relationship, romantic friendship, or passionate attachment between two people without the other spouse knowing."
> 
> It is not like you went to your first wife, explained the feelings you were having, and then asked her if it would be okay for you to ask your current wife that question, right?
> 
> If your first wife had done to you exactly what you did to her, would you not feel betrayed?
> 
> You basically had someone waiting in the wings. To me that looks like a WH, not a WAH.
> 
> Not that you did not have your reasons.


If my first wife didn't know that I wasn't thrilled with our marriage, it wasn't because I hadn't told her. So if she had done the same thing, I would have said "I'm happy for you." 

Oh, I forgot to mention that my first wife lied about her age when we met, deducting *10 years*, and only told me about about it years later. Should I have figured it out earlier? Yes, but I was naive then, and couldn't imagine that she would lie like that.

As far as having someone waiting in the wings, S didn't say that she would run off with me, only that if we were both single she might be interested in having a personal relationship. So I arranged to make myself single and then asked her if she would do the same.

People can think whatever they want, of course, but I don't consider that having an affair.


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## tech-novelist

jdawg2015 said:


> So what brought you to TAM?
> 
> Most of us here are because we are part of the land of misfit toys:grin2:


I saw some minor deterioration in my marriage and started doing some research to figure out what was going on so I could fix it.

I found MMSLP first, but after absorbing Athol's main points I started to get bored with that. Then I remembered that he had mentioned this site, so I decided to see what it was about.


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## BetrayedDad

Happilymarried25 said:


> That's where men and women differ, women are more likely to leave to be alone while men are more likely to leave to be with another women.


Bologna.... my exwife is a TEXTBOOK "can't be alone" needy girl and I know a lot more of her type than I do "independent women". She had most of the symptoms of a WAW except she chose to cheat to fill the void rather than just leave and end the relationship she had long checked out of.

Most PEOPLE don't like to be alone. I personally am okay with it now (I was before I met my ex) but it took me years to get there after being codependent for ten years of marriage. Most walkaways simply wait for opportunity (ie kids go to college, physical abuse, etc.) and usually potentially losing someone they may have made a connection too is enough of an excuse for many of them to leave. 

Just one of many reasons...


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## turnera

WAWs and cheating wives are NOT THE SAME THING.


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## naiveonedave

turnera said:


> WAWs and cheating wives are NOT THE SAME THING.


I would say they are not always the same thing.... Or usually not the same thing.


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## turnera

The definition of a WAW - for about the fifth time - is a wife who WALKS AWAY from a marriage. 

Not one who CHEATS her way out of a marriage.


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## JamesTKirk

Happilymarried25 said:


> Most men who "walk away" walk away into another women arms. They don't like to leave and be alone, they want to know there is someone else there. That's where men and women differ, women are more likely to leave to be alone while men are more likely to leave to be with another women. I don't know any women who left their husband to be with another men while I know a few men who left their wives to be with another women. That doesn't mean all men leave their wives to be with another women they leave for other reasons like the wife has an affair/lack of sex/abuse.


I don't think that's necessarily true. He's already alone. Most men just don't bother getting a divorce. They stay married and just ignore the wife or distance himself from her. In many cases he knows if they get a divorce he's going to have to find a new place to live, start giving her half his money (if she's not employed or is underemployed,) and rarely see his kids again (if there are kids.) Men are more likely to just stay married and miserable because they are total bastards if they leave their wife.
So he's more likely to stay married and probably start cheating which is worse. It's super crappy because I believe you should split up before cheating.

If a man leave his wife to be alone, no one ever believes he left her because she was a was a bad wife or she was the one who stopped working with him. He's always the bastard for not trying or for giving up, or because he just wants to screw around (whether he does or doesn't.)

When a woman leaves a man, it's automatically assumed it's because he did something wrong, he's a bad husband, or he cheated. No one ever blames a woman for leaving a husband unless it's infidelity and even then, it's his fault somehow.

Also, a woman generally waits to sleep with someone new until after the divorce. But I've seen plenty of women get divorced "to be alone" and within a month they have a new boyfriend (from out of the blue <wink><wink>) So yeah, often times a woman will have something sort of lined up but she's not moving in right way. She'll stay independent.


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## jld

technovelist said:


> If my first wife didn't know that I wasn't thrilled with our marriage, it wasn't because I hadn't told her. So if she had done the same thing, I would have said "I'm happy for you."
> 
> Oh, I forgot to mention that my first wife lied about her age when we met, deducting *10 years*, and only told me about about it years later. Should I have figured it out earlier? Yes, but I was naive then, and couldn't imagine that she would lie like that.
> 
> As far as having someone waiting in the wings, S didn't say that she would run off with me, only that if we were both single she might be interested in having a personal relationship. So I arranged to make myself single and then asked her if she would do the same.
> 
> People can think whatever they want, of course, but I don't consider that having an affair.


You got some sort of assurance before you filed. Sorry, that does not look like a WAH to me. Looks like a WH.

And then you asked her to leave her husband? Dude. Seriously claiming WAH status?

Not that I care. Not my business, really.


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## tech-novelist

So as not to hijack this thread even more, I'm going to start a new thread about my story.


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## niceguy28

The OP's mindset is exactly why men don't want to get married in the first place. Instead of placing the blame entirely on the husband the op should have also asked herself why her husband did not want to meet her needs. This happy wife happy life mindset women have is self destructive. Yes men can be stupid but 9 times out of ten the wife contributes equally to the problem. If your husband wont go on dates with you maybe he just plain doesn't like to hang out with you. What does it say about you as a wife when a man who used to meet your needs no longer does after he has been married to you for a while. Before anybody, husband or wife, complains about their spouse they should first look inward and ask themselves whether or not they themselves are being good spouses. Men who don't change are not happy with their spouses. Same with women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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