# Need help coping



## Acoa

I'm not sure if I just need to vent, or if I'm looking for advice. I just feel like I need feedback from others who have dealt with the same problems to help sort out what's "normal" about what I'm feeling. Long back story, so, thanks in advance to those who take the time to read it.

I'm a very distrustful person. Let me start with that. I have obsessive thoughts about people lying to me or trying to hurt me. I know that comes from growing up in an abusive household. So, I've learned to stuff those thoughts as being 'unreasonable' most of the time. I just want that up front as emotionally I tend to 'feel' the worst case possible, so logically I overcompensate and try to give the 'benefit of the doubt'. 

I'm 42, wife just turned 44. Married 21 years, 3 kids (one in college 2 in high school). My job has moved me around a lot for work. 2 of the kids were born with medical issues. So, in the 'younger' years we were always a very tight nit family. Needed to rely on each other a lot, and because of the moves didn't have many friends that were not 'family' friends.

5 years ago we moved back to our hometown. Wife was very social in high school and her family is very active in civic matters in town. So, she knows hundreds of people who live near us. She connected over facebook with old friends from high school. Became active on the reunion committee and started going to various informal gatherings that took place mainly at bars to sing karaoke. 

I'm a much less social person. I'm more happy at home, playing video games or working around the house in the evenings. I would go with her sometimes, but more often I would not. I didn't really like those people in high school, and from the couple of times I went, they haven't changed much. 

3 years ago my wife's mother died. She took that loss very hard. But didn't want to talk about it, because 'it made her cry'. She started to go out more. Also joined a local community theater. She was out more nights than she was home, and when I requested she be home more, she would get angry with me and tell me she didn't want to be home if all I was going to do was be in the basement playing video games. The kids were getting older and needed her less and she wanted to have a life.

She started working on losing weight. Was dressing nicer and looking good. I would joke with her (prior to Dday) that I'd better keep an eye on her. She would tell me I had nothing to worry about, she was all mine and would never think about cheating (ha! what a crock of ****). 

Most of 2011 we felt disconnected. I knew our relationship was 'off'. I suspected something could be going on. But I had a hard time coming to grips with that. I figured out the password to her phone and facebook and started keeping tabs on her. There was some sexual banter with the theater folks. But more like you would hear when joking around with a 'bawdy' crowd. Nothing that I would say was 'flirty'. 

Shortly before our anniversary she started making plans to have lunch with someone she has known since the 3rd grade. I'll call him Joe. She didn't tell me anything, so, all I had to go on was the texts. Nothing sexual, just 'lunch' and a 'big hug' because they haven't seen each other in decades. I feel I made a mistake in confronting her at this point. I didn't have proof of anything, and it tipped my hand that I was looking over her shoulder. (this was June 2011). She claimed he was 'just a friend' and what not. I was still livid. I told her if that was true, she could invite him AND his wife over for dinner sometime, but not have a private lunch with only him. She claimed that would be 'uncomfortable' now that I was so suspicious. :scratchhead:

She didn't change her passwords. But I could tell by reconciling to the bill she was deleting texts. I asked her not to and she would always come up with the **** & bull story that she was just freeing up space on her phone. 

Just before Memorial day 2012 I caught Facebook (FB) chat from Joe planning a lunch date for memorial day. As the day approached I was waiting for her to lie to me for some excuse to get out Memorial day afternoon so I could confront her. She didn't mention anything about it, so I checked her FB again on Sunday. Turns out they both didn't realize is was Memorial day, so the canceled their plans. I wanted to save that log prior to her deleting it, but wasn't sure how to do that from FB. So, i tried to 'archive' thinking it would download it. But it just disappeared. I read up on Archiving and figured out it just saves it, but it no longer appears in the messages tool. So, i went into the archive to 'undo' what I had done so she wouldn't notice. 

That's when i saw another thread from July with another high school acquaintance. I'll call him John. It was full throttle cybersex. Him asking her questions about her breasts and if she liked to feel cum inside her and what a great time they could have. She was leading him along, not trying to stop the chat, but insisted that they maintain 'boundaries' as they wouldn't want to get in trouble. WTF? There was a reference to another chat where he thought she had masturbated while they chatted. Ugh, so disgusting to think about. She always shamed me when I would masturbate and told me she tried it once when she was younger but didn't like it. 

I was devastated. I was hoping to this point that it was just my distrustful nature. That she wouldn't really do anything to betray me. But here I had it. Proof she was at least in an EA with this POSOM. This thread was from July 2011. I this guy was at one of the high school gatherings she went to without me back in December 2010. She also tried going to another gathering in December 2011. But I decided last minute to go with, and she came up with some lame reason for not wanting to go. So, my conclusion that she hadn't been physical with this guy prior to July 2011. I think she was open to the idea, but maybe I caught it before it got that far.

I copied those posts and saved them on a thumb drive and hid that. I confronted her when she got home. 1st about her setting up a lunch date with "Joe". She stuck to her "he is just a friend" story and said she would have told me, but since they canceled she didn't see a point in bringing it up. I said I didn't care. If she even was thinking about having lunch alone with another guy. She needed to tell me about it before setting a date, and then only go if I felt the guy in question was 'safe'. As I didn't know Joe, he was not safe. She said I had 'nothing to worry about'. 

So, I then asked her, "is there anything I should be worried about?" If not with Joe, how about with anyone? Did she ever kiss anyone? Let anyone grab her ass? Ever have an inappropriate text or chat conversation? She looked me straight in the eye, and without missing a beat said, "no, never. I would never do that to you." 

I quoted a line her chat with John. I could tell from the look on her face she knew she was busted. I went off like an abomb. Kids in the next room and all, I no longer cared to keep calm. I was crying like I've never cried before (I rarely cry) and screaming at her, calling her a **** and liar. I told her to come clean now. She then admitted to the chat with John. She said there were also similar chats with another guy who i didn't know. But she said it was never physical and that she stopped it last year shortly after those texts as she 'felt sick to her stomach' about doing it. 

I told her I wasn't buying it. They were still friends on her FB. That although she hadn't been to a high school gathering in six months, she was still in contact and planing to go again at some point. 

She was stunned, obviously remorsefully. But I'd say more remorseful over being caught than what she did. She wanted to rugsweep and rugsweep fast. I told her it wasn't going to happen. I told her to go unfriend anyone on FB that she either flirted with, or encouraged her flirting. I told her she was to no longer delete texts and chat and that I would be watching. Anything deleted in my book would be cheating. I don't care if it was just a happy birthday note to Dad. Don't delete it! I exposed her to our pastor and he referred us to a family counselor for MC. 

She removed about a dozen FB 'friends'. Some male, some female. Mostly high school people. Her posts were 'less flirty', but there was still some flirting going on that I was quick to point out to her and use as examples of things that pissed me off to see. She would call other guys handsome and sweetie. She told me she was just being nice, trying to build them up. I asked what for? Did she realize that was tearing me down, and leading them on to thinking maybe she was attracted to them. She got the point and cut that out.

Through MC, both of us realized we had some pretty major individual issues. So, we have put MC on hold for a few months to focus on IC. I'm still holding her accountable to 'follow my rules' (yes, more than a bit controlling, but oh well). I have her computer keylogged and haven't seem anything. I keep an eye on texts vs the phone bill and she deleted one message from one of the theater guys. The were joking about dildos. That was about a month after Dday. Nothing since. 

From what I can observe she seems to be doing everything I've asked. I still just can't shake the feelings of anger and sadness. I've quit video games. Started working out. Playing my clarinet more. The anger and depression are not constant like they were the first few months. But it still comes on daily. Usually when I'm at work, or laying in bed trying to fall asleep. I just can't stop my mind from racing with the 'what ifs" (what if she didn't tell me the whole truth, what if she just took it deeper underground, what if, what if, what if!). 

Does it ever stop? I like the name of the forum. So, I'll use it in the form of a question. "How do you cope with infidelity?" I know there is no one answer to that. Heck, maybe i'm asking it rhetorically. Maybe I have no idea what I'm doing posting here. 

Thanks again to those who took the time to read this. I'd appreciate any input on how I handled the situation. And now that I'm am where I am, what should I be doing to stop the obsessive thoughts. Or should I embrace them? I feel like a mental case.


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## LetDownNTX

I dont think the thoughts go away. Im several years out and still think about it constantly. Always wonder where WH is when he's not here, is he talking to OW, did they meet for lunch, is he just giving me enough to keep my radar off. Its a miserable way to live and Im sorry you're living it. 

If she is doing everything you think she can to proves she is being honest then you are going to have to find a way to let some of it go. It never all goes away. You have a handicap in that you already had issues because of your past with no trusting. Are you in individual counseling?


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## Acoa

Yes, we are both seeing individual therapists every other week (her therapist is our MC, my IC is a different therapist). I'm going to Adult Children of Alcholics meetings weekly to work on my issues.

She is doing all the right things. NC, I can track her phone, see her FB. I don't think she knows I keylogged her computer. She hasn't deleted anything since the one a month after Dday (which I caught from the phone bill). She is very good about telling me where she is going, who she is with and such. So, logically I don't see any red flags. I just wished the emotions would catch up. Maybe I'm just depressed realizing they never will. I'll always be suspicious. Maybe I'll stop checking constantly and obsessing. But, I'll never trust her like I used to. 

I'm working on 'healthy trust' as my therapist calls it. Trusting a little, and giving more trust as it's earned. Also decreasing trust when it's broken. My therapist says complete trust is not healthy, and it's okay if I never fully trust her again. As long as I can get to a point where I trust her enough. (Sounds so ambigious, I strugle with the concept).


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## Acabado

Acoa said:


> I'm working on 'healthy trust' as my therapist calls it. Trusting a little, and giving more trust as it's earned. Also decreasing trust when it's broken. My therapist says complete trust is not healthy, and it's okay if I never fully trust her again. As long as I can get to a point where I trust her enough. (Sounds so ambigious, I strugle with the concept).


Like the concept. I'd be glad to hear a little more if you may.

I instinctively embraced the idea that blind trust was not actually that good to begin with. I heard somewhere about "healthy level of distrust". I believe it forced me to be more "present" in the marriage, not taking things for granted or living in autopilot. Just the awareness of "it" makes the deal. 
I'm three years after DDay and doing well.


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## AngryandUsed

What she did is totally inappropriate.

You trust is gone, and it will take a long time to regain, if you choose to.

I think you have rugswept her affairs. You don't have full truth.

Without full truth, transparency, honesty in words, and remorse, how do you think you could reconcile?


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## WasDecimated

I am sorry you have to deal with this. It is interesting that her behavior changed after her mother passed away. 

After my STBXW's mother and father died, 4 months apart, her behavior changed dramatically. She joined FB, became much more outgoing, started spending a lot of money on new clothes and shoes. The biggest change was her affair.

She hooked up with an old school friend on FB and proceeded to have a 2 year EA/PA. I was not fortunate like you...I didn't catch her in time. After I did catch on, she lied and TT'd me for over a year. 

She did tell me that after her parents died she began to feel lonely, like an orphan. I believe she began to reevaluate her life and priorities. She wanted to go out and have fun and her family and children became a lower priority...a super selfish state of mind. I have read that the loss of a parent, a child, or even a job can be the catalyst for a MLC. From what I've seen here, MLC's almost always involve an affair.

Good luck to you.


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## My_2nd_Rodeo

> I'm going to Adult Children of Alcholics meetings weekly to work on my issues.


Ok, what I’m about to say is from my experience – yours may be different. I feel that I can directly relate to your history and thought processes.

Trust is your Achilles heel - that's the result of that type childhood. You live in a state of constant and compulsive fears & worries. It's a crappy way to live - and I know you hate it. 

Unfortunately, it’s nearly impossible to keep your mind from analyzing everything... then analyzing it again... from every angle. You’ve learned from childhood to do this, in fact, you had a self-preservation need to do so. 

To turn your brain off (never stops, huh?), you resorted to mental escapism activities… .such as video games. At least that’s what I did. I'm a bit surprised you didn't have your own battle with alcohol at some point in your life (self medication).


Your other problem is that nothing escapes you. You may not have all the facts or details, but when your nose gets on a trail... you usually find something. Your brain will keep grinding away at anything in life that seems slightly odd. My 1st wife took a cell phone call in front of me, everything seemed fine on face value – her disposition, the discussion, the reason for the call, etc. However, I saw an ever subtle eye movement – brief, just a split second. That’s all, that’s it. I knew instantly she was cheating. From there, I snooped and confirmed all my worst fears. That is our curse… we notice every action, movement, expression... no matter how subtle. We bank it, grind it, and come up with a hundred hypotheses about it… then we go into observe & search mode. 

Why a curse? Because we do that for everything in our lives, it’s not just limited to fears about cheating. It’s utterly exhausting. However there is one benefit, the trait served me very well in my career.

I'm really proud of you:
1) You're doing group
2) You're working IC & MC
3) You've bettered yourself
4) You've made a choice to reduce introvertive escapism activities (e.g. the video games).

You're going to take longer to recover than normal people. Only a little over a year out? I think you're par for the course.

Also, your wife will need to give you extra special understanding & patience. She should know this... if not, bring it up in MC.

One tip. Tell yourself, right now, that you will always say yes to going out to events/functions/etc when your wife asks. Don’t make it into a choice for you, just think it’s mandatory. “Yes” is the only word you know from now on when asked if you want to go do XZY. And since you’re going to say yes anyway, make it a very positive yes. No ho-hums or sighs. If you do this, your wife will be amazed and extremely happy. Eventually, you may even enjoy going out and find yourself worrying a lot less. I am now fearless at parties, dinner events, mixers. I don’t mind walking up to a group of complete strangers and just starting a conversation – in fact it amuses me now. How odd.


You’re taking the right steps.


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## Acoa

Acabado said:


> Like the concept. I'd be glad to hear a little more if you may.


Regarding the 'healthy trust' concept. It came up as we talked about my overal trust issues and how they related to my coming to grips with how to (or not to) trust my WW. 

My therapist pointed out how I was saying things, I was being very black or white. Either I trusted, or I didn't trust. I was having a hard time because any little thing that could be a sign, I was immediatly assuming the worst. Then I'd lash out at my wife. Basically I'm in a cycle where I either hold it in and explode, or assault her with a constant stream of accusations. 

She asked me if our marriage could work if I never trust her? To which I had to say no. I don't think a marriage can work without trust. 

Then she asked, do I see myself ever trusting her as blindly as I did before the affairs? To which I had to admit, no. I don't ever see myself being that trusting again.

It seemed to me like that dooms the marriage. Which she pointed out it doesn't have to. I don't have to have blind trust. I just have to trust enough that she wouldn't do it again. But be distrusting enough to pay attention to the signs. That if something comes up and it could be a sign, it needs to be investigated. What's different, is I don't have to feel bad about investigating it. I don't need to feel bad about checking on her to make sure she isn't cheating on me. Because, my WW has taught me that if I give her blind trust, she has the capability to abuse it. So, she doesn't deserve it.

I read somewhere else that trust is like rungs on a ladder. When you 1st meet someone, one person has to take a risk and 'give' the other person a little trust. Then see how they respond. The example given was like a guy giving a girl his phone number. If she calls him, she returned that trust. So, you can give a little more. This give and take is good, and if you build it in balance it's good. But if the trust is not returned, you need to back off and that's it. The end of the line. You can't keep piling trust into a black hole where none is returned. It's not healthy. You cannot be the black hole either. So, that needs to be fixed or there is no relationship.

Still working on applying that visual to my life. But the concept helps.


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## Acoa

AngryandUsed said:


> I think you have rugswept her affairs. You don't have full truth.
> 
> Without full truth, transparency, honesty in words, and remorse, how do you think you could reconcile?


I don't think i'm rugsweeping. I've even went so far as to lessen her risk, by giving her a window to tell me the truth. She had till June to confess anything. No matter what she said I told her I would stay and work on it if she was willing. But if I find out she lied about the extent or number of affairs after that, I would go straight to the lawyer to have divorce papers drawn up. 

She is either very confident that there is no evidence or I have the full truth. I'm suspicious to the core. So, even if I 'think' i have the full truth. I'll always be hunting for the lie. That trait is so deeply imbedded in who I am, I can't turn it off. So, I'll accept it. 

We also talk about my trust issues. When something bothers me, I investigated. She is getting good at not being defensive about it. She used to blow up at me for 'not trusting her'. She can never say that again. I'm allowed to not trust her. I'm not allowed to accuse her. I can ask, I can investigate and I can snoop. But I won't accuse without proof. But she doesn't hinder my investigations, or get offended by them. She knows I need that, and she is learning to deal with it. 

I don't think that's rug sweeping.


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## Acoa

My_2nd_Rodeo said:


> You’re taking the right steps.


Thanks, I really relate to what you have said. I did struggle with drug and alcohol addiction. I started when I was 11 and quit at 18. I didn't want to be like dad. Unfortunately I only substituted gaming for drugs. But at least I am aware now.

Thanks again for your response.


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## theroad

To help restore trust and to get the truth out you need to have your WW polygraph tested.


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## Acabado

Thanks Acoa, makes sense.

Hope things keep getting better.


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## Will_Kane

I think what you're feeling is pretty normal.

You don't sound as if you were overly distrustful before this came to light, nor since.

You handled the situation well.

If your wife saw these people in person who she sexted or cybered with, then you really have to wonder if she had sex with them. You don't seem to think so, but if it is something that bothers you, and your wife is willing to do everything you ask to help you heal, consider asking for a polygraph. If it doesn't matter to you, then don't bother.

Aside from your wife doing what you need to re-establish trust, the next best thing to help you get over it is time.


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## Acoa

2asdf2 said:


> Or else...
> 
> You get the picture. Don't underestimate what you are dealing with.
> 
> I hope you don't need your lie hunting skills. (maybe should be truth hunting)


So many "or else.." possibilities. And of course my brain can't stop exploring them all, evaluating, determining how to exclude or confirm. It's exhausting. 

I like your 'truth hunting' comment. I've always focused on the lie. The lie can be so many things. But the truth is the truth. There is only one truth. We can color the truth, but that's back to lying. 

When I investigate my wife's actions with the lens that I'm trying to detect a lie, it's accusatory by nature. I'm really digging to to exclude all the wild possibilities, so that I am confident in the truth. I think this is a much better way to look at it. It puts the owness back on to my insecurity and distrust. 

I don't think my wife is bad person, or dishonest by nature. I think she made some bad choices and had poor boundries then was dishonest about it. She is working on that with her therapist, and I've been very clear to her that her honesty is paramount to reconciliation. I had my truth hunting skills turned off for the past few years. I was occupying my mind so that I didn't have to deal with the pain unfolding in my life. I'm done with that. I'm fully awake again, and I will keep my eyes open and take notice of everything. She will either accept that or not. We will either sucessfully reconcile or not. The two are linked.

The hard part will be down the road. I almost don't want the pain to fade. It keeps my guard up. I don't wan to let my guard down. But I can't live on a constant state of red alert either. Can I?


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## Acoa

AngryandUsed said:


> What she did is totally inappropriate.
> 
> You trust is gone, and it will take a long time to regain, if you choose to.
> 
> I think you have rugswept her affairs. You don't have full truth.
> 
> Without full truth, transparency, honesty in words, and remorse, how do you think you could reconcile?


I didn't like the rugsweeping comment. But the more I ponder this, the more I have to admit you are probably correct. At least to a degree. I like your requirements for reconciliation... "full truth, transparency, honesty in words, and remorse"

*Full Truth*: She claims I do. She did give me some details that I did not have evidence to prove. So, she has given me more truth than I had discovered on my own. However she was very 'forgetful/dismissive' of details. She gets agitated when I press for more information, saying things like "you won't be happy until I make up something worse!". So, my gut is telling me that there is more to it. I'm just not sure. If more it there, I'd like to know. But it's also possible that I'm just looking for more. I'm letting it go for now. But it's something I'm going to revisit in MC.

*Transparency*: She is doing very well in this area. I know all passwords. She tells me where she is going, who she will be with and when she will be back. On the sly I keep an eye on her car odometer, track her phone's GPS and have a keylogger on her laptop. So far everything checks out.

*Honesty in words*: Too soon to judge. When she says she loves me, or that I'm the best, it still stings. If I was all that great, why did she cheat? As far as sticking to our agreement and transparency goes, what she says is supported by what she does. So, from what I can observe it's good. 

*Remorse*: Very weak in this area. She was very 'sorry' when I confronted her. Or when I breakdown. I gather that she is sorry for getting caught. I even believe she is sorry that I'm hurting because of her actions. I just don't know if she is sorry for the multiple EAs. She never asked me to forgive her. She never initiates conversations about our relationship unless we are in MC. When I bring something up, she is responsive for a little while, but has an annoying habit of changing the topic. That is very annoying. I used to just drop it. But lately I've been calling her out on her topic changing, which works at keeping us on topic for a little while. I just can't help feeling like she is worried about hurting me so she isn't giving me everything. She said, "it happened, i know it was wrong, it felt wrong and I stopped. I will never do it again and just want to move forward."

So, I think *AngryandUsed *may be closer to the mark than I want to admit.


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## Acoa

Confusing times. 

Last night I decided to open up to my WW about the doubts I have that she has given me the whole truth. She stuck to her guns, but was a little more open about the emotions of it. Where before she said it made her feel 'icky' she at least admitted to enjoying it. Which while not pleasent to hear at least makes sense. I mean, why would you do something again and again if you didn't like it. 

All things considered it was a good conversation. She seemed more open to discussing than she ever has in the past, and showed genuine remorse. So, I won't call it feeling good, but i'd say it seemed like progress.

Then this morning the oddest thing happens. We get a text message on our home phone number from a number I didn't recognize asking "can I come tonight?"

I have to assume he means the xmas party at the community theatre tonight. It's the only event I know going on tonight. I have my Adult Children's of Alcholoics meeting at the same time and my wife only asked me about coming to the party yesterday (which of course i'm going to the party!). 

I looked up the phone number and it's a guy my wife knows from the theatre. I've met him and his fiancee at a party a few months back. Kind of an odd guy. 

Anyway, i figure he has both our home number and my wife's number programed into his phone and sent the text to our home number by mistake. So, trying to egg along a conversation I said, "sure, why not?" He replied, "Just checking."

Then about 5 minutes later he called the house. I was at work and wife is at home, but I get the caller id pop up on my phone so I know who is calling. 

I asked my wife why he was asking her for permission to come to the party. She said she had no idea. That he is a very odd guy and likes lots of reassurance. But she doesn't know why he would be asking her.

Doesn't add up. I can't make much sense of that and I'm not sure how to respond. Things were busy at work, so I just left it with, "well figure it out, because it doesn't make sense." So, i'm not sure what kind of story i'm going to get when I get home. More likely she won't bring it up and hope I let it slide. 

This same guy FB messages my wife once or so per month with a simple, "Hi". My wife hasn't replied to him since I confronted her about the cybersex. Which makes my spidey sense tingle all the more. 

Still, it's not much to go on and I'm in unltra hyper paranoid mode. I think it's polygraph time. Might help calm my nerves if i'm overracting or confirm to me she is still hiding crap.


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## Acoa

So, the story goes that this guys membership was comped as he lost his job late last year. So he was checking to see if he could still come to the party and bring a couple of friends. 

The reason he called my wife is she is the one who sent out the membership directories.

Seems plausible. Confirmed what I could by asking questions around the edges with a few other people at the party. 

The loss of trust eats me up from the inside.


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## Acabado

Glad to hear the update.
I heard a former WW once saying "nothing is innocent anymore".

Hang tough


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## See_Listen_Love

Acoa said:


> ...
> Then this morning the oddest thing happens. We get a text message on our home phone number from a number I didn't recognize asking "can I come tonight?"
> 
> I have to assume he means the xmas party at the community theatre tonight. It's the only event I know going on tonight. I have my Adult Children's of Alcholoics meeting at the same time and my wife only asked me about coming to the party yesterday (which of course i'm going to the party!).
> 
> I looked up the phone number and it's a guy my wife knows from the theatre. I've met him and his fiancee at a party a few months back. Kind of an odd guy.
> 
> Anyway, i figure he has both our home number and my wife's number programed into his phone and sent the text to our home number by mistake. So, trying to egg along a conversation I said, "sure, why not?" He replied, "Just checking."
> 
> Then about 5 minutes later he called the house. I was at work and wife is at home, but I get the caller id pop up on my phone so I know who is calling.
> 
> I asked my wife why he was asking her for permission to come to the party. She said she had no idea. That he is a very odd guy and likes lots of reassurance. But she doesn't know why he would be asking her.
> 
> .....


Eh, 

It is also possible 1) that he assumed you would go to the meeting and asked for confirmation if it would be ok to meet your wife...

Or 2) he knew you would be asked if you wanted to go to the party or to your meeting. And wanted to know how it had turned out. Then you would scare him with the text "sure, why not?" because they had discussed he could not come if you did not go to your meeting...

"Just checking." is then the safe reply because he mistrusted the situation if texting the wrong number and then called back to your house to check out what was happening.

Hope not this is the case, but it is possible.


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## Acoa

Holidays went well. Had some time off work so we spent lots of time together as a family. Not as much one on one time as I would have liked, but overall it was nice spending time together.

4 months ago, on advice from our therapist during MC we stopped MC and started IC. My wife with the same therapist we used for MC and myself with a new therapist. 

I've learned alot about myself, and while I still have much work to do, i'm ready to start back with MC. I brought this up with my wife and she agreed. So this past weekend she mentioned it to her therapist. Her therapist said that she isn't ready yet to resume MC. 4 months of IC and she isn't ready yet? 

She also pointed out that we would need to find a 3rd therapist as neither of our individual therapists should conduct our MC (which I agree with). 

I'm kind of floored though that she told my wife she isn't ready for MC yet. Not sure what to make of that.

Niether of us is very good at communicating our emotions honestly with each other. I've been trying to with her, but it seems to go wrong. I think MC would be very helpful at this point as it will help us communicate better. 

I feel like I'm in limbo right now. I've stopped gaming. I'm helping out around the house. Sex life is still great. We have been pretty good at sticking to a date night at least weekly. But there is still a wall up. When i bring up the difficult subject topics get changed or she pulls into her shell and hides. 

I guess i'm worried that so much time will pass that when I bring up the pain I'm still holding in she is going to complain that i'm living in the past. Is there a good way to communicate the pain we feel as the BS without it seeming like we are nagging? I wan't to make sure that I'm communicating to her that i'm still hurting. But I don't want it to dominate every minute of every day.


----------



## JMGrey

Acoa said:


> *I don't think my wife is bad person, or dishonest by nature.* I think she made some bad choices and had poor boundries then was dishonest about it. She is working on that with her therapist, and I've been very clear to her that her honesty is paramount to reconciliation. I had my truth hunting skills turned off for the past few years. I was occupying my mind so that I didn't have to deal with the pain unfolding in my life. I'm done with that. I'm fully awake again, and I will keep my eyes open and take notice of everything. She will either accept that or not. We will either sucessfully reconcile or not. The two are linked.


The bolded part that I've quoted accounts for more or less all fog that BSs experience when finding out about their WS's infidelity. The problem is that it _is_ in her character, or she would have had sufficient willpower, respect for herself, for you, and for the sanctity of your marriage not to do it. Failing that, she would've had the dignity to alert you immediately when she started having feelings for the OM. She did neither. Dishonesty and infidelity are in her character, and that's a sad truth that you need to take into account when approaching reconciliation. Your wife is no different than a recovering alcoholic or addict; this particular weakness is a part of her and will be with her, to some degree or another, for the rest of her life. The second that you forego your diligence in the matter, you start asking for it to happen again. Keep that in mind.


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## Acoa

Feeling a little bit better today. Had a rough night Friday. Looking through the phone bill I saw some texts from a number I did not recognize. Looked at the wife's phone when I got home and don't see them. I thought she had deleted them. I decided to not mention it until I got a chance to recover them. But I was really steaming.

So, we went out to the movies for date night. I was glad it was to the movies. I don't think I could have held it together if we had to have a lot of interaction.

Later that night I backed up her phone and searched that number. Turns out it was her sister's new cell phone number and was buried in a group MMS and not deleted as I thought. I'm glad I contained my anger until after I investigated. Even more relieved it turned out to be innocent.

On a separate note, creepy guy who texted "if he could come to the Xmas party" Facebook messages my wife asking if she would model the red dress she wore to the party for a project for his photography class. She replied that she didn't have the time. She didn't delete it, which I'm happy about. But I wish she would have mentioned it. I'd rather she talk to me about what this creeper is up to than try to handle it on her own.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Acoa said:


> Niether of us is very good at communicating our emotions honestly with each other. I've been trying to with her, but it seems to go wrong. I think MC would be very helpful at this point as it will help us communicate better.
> 
> ... But there is still a wall up. When i bring up the difficult subject topics get changed or she pulls into her shell and hides.
> ...
> 
> I guess i'm worried that so much time will pass that when I bring up the pain I'm still holding in she is going to complain that i'm living in the past. Is there a good way to communicate the pain we feel as the BS without it seeming like we are nagging? I wan't to make sure that I'm communicating to her that i'm still hurting. But I don't want it to dominate every minute of every day.



Maybe you could try this:




> Originally Posted by *See_Listen_Love*
> _There is a technique called (as I know it) the '7 minute conversation'.
> 
> This is to cope with communication under very difficult relational stress situation (when talking proceeds everytime to arguing, name calling, bashing, etc. etc.).
> 
> The subject where the issue is about is only to be discussed in this 7 minute conversation, and not during the rest of the day. This way there is no constant pressure and drama in the house. You both know you can talk a a certain time about the subject.You both know you are safe outside of that 15 min total.
> 
> It works like this (I use 'Husband' and 'Wife' for clarity, this can ofcourse be either way):
> 
> The Husband asks for a 7 minute conversation. If the Wife agrees, you reserve a time span of 15 min, right then or at a later time that day.
> 
> You need to have a timer, a pen and 2 smal pieces of paper.
> 
> Both persons write on their piece of paper a number reprenting how good or bad they feel at that very moment on a scale of 1 tot 10. This is hidden for the other person. The paper is folded to hide the number.
> 
> 1) The timer is set to run from 7 minutes to zero.
> 
> 2) Then the person who was asked for the 7 minute conversation has to ask questions. The first is what number the Husband wrote down. This gets answered with only the number.
> 
> 3) The Wife then asks why do you write a <the number>? Then the Husband can speak whatever he wants to say. The other person is not allowed to interrupt or speak.
> 
> 4) When the Husband is finished the Wife has to ask an *open question*. This is very difficult because everybody wants to ask accusing questions or use defending questions. That is not allowed, only open questions like 'can you tell more about .......';'how do you feel about...'; 'what do you think that can be done about....' etc.
> 
> 5) When the Husband is finished another open question has to be asked, untill the timer reaches zero. The one asking is never allowed to interrupt or react! The one answering has to answer on the subject of the open question and can't react otherwise!
> 
> Then the same is executed again with roles reversed.
> 
> Outside this conversation it is not allowed to speak about the subject. This continues a number of day's until both agree it is ready.
> 
> What will happen is that both persons will feel frustrated because you either have to ask open question which you do not like at all at such a moment, or you have to respond to questions that miss at all what you want to say.
> 
> By some strange mechanism this works very well and my experience is that within a short number of day's the problem is solved, not anymore important, or even forgotten what it was about!
> 
> Maybe you should give it a try, it has helped us in very difficult situations._


Otherwise you could use questionaires in magazines:

Answer separately the questions AND what you think the other person will have for an answer.
Then compare what your answers were and explain to eachother why you answered like that and what you thought the other would anwer.

There is no discussion here, there is no wright and wrong. There is just communication about what one thinks and feels.

Any subject will do to get you two to learn about eachother. Let go of the preconceived opinons!


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## Acoa

No luck getting a conversation going last week. Probably going to be a bad week this week too. 

Wife has a play opening Thursday. So, she moved date night last week from Friday to Saturday to accommodate changes made to the rehearsal schedule. She went to the theater most of the day Saturday to help finish building the set.

I planned mini golf and trying a local restaurant for dinner that we haven't been to yet. I mentioned to wife last few date nights have been movies and I wanted something a little more interactive. She came home from the theater 'exhausted' and not wanting to stand up any more. So, we just went to dinner then came home and guess what we did? Watched a movie. :scratchhead:

I even offered to clear the table so we could work on a puzzle together. She said she just wanted to be held by me. We had good sex after the kids went to bed. I like physical contact, it's one of my love languages. But so is quality time. We are not getting any of that. 

Probably won't this week either. She will be gone to the theater by the time I get home tonight. I leave for a business trip tomorrow and won't be back till late (like midnight) on Wednesday. If I was home, it wouldn't matter much anyhow, she has practice Tuesday and Wednesday night. Her play opens Thursday. 

So, I may see her Saturday morning this week. Maybe we will have latenight sex one night, but other than that, no meaningful contact. I feel like she is keeping me at a distance mentally and I just fill some physical need.

She is keeping her therapy appointments, but doesn't tell me much about what's going on. Just that it's difficult, and she doesn't like it. 

I've decreased my surveillance, not because I have complete trust, but because I was not finding anything. I believe at this point there is no active affair, with the exception perhaps of her love for the theater. I don't believe we are in a place where she won't slip back into old patterns of poor boundaries and get herself into trouble. I don't think she even realizes what a poor boundary is yet. 


I plan to give her until May to take some concrete steps, or I'll ask her to move out, maybe get a place closer to the theater. Here are the things I'd like to see by May:
1.) For us to return to MC
2.) No back to back theater productions
3.) Follow through on date nights that are not just sitting and watching something, or having sex.

I've told her that I want these three things. I have not told her that I've set a time limit in my head, or that if she doesn't start doing these things I plan to separate. I think I should tell her, but how far in advance? I fell like giving her 5 months is a bit too much. I plan to just keep asking her to do these things for me, and if she should either do them, or not. A 'deadline' shouldn't really matter.


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## JMGrey

Acoa said:


> *I plan to give her until May* ...


Can I ask why you've chosen May for the EOL?


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## Acoa

JMGrey said:


> Can I ask why you've chosen May for the EOL?


1yr anniversary of DDay. Also coincides with the next Theatre season. She will have had no commitments to any productions from the time I told her that I do not want her to participate in back to back productions. So, if she does get involved in back to back productions, she is actively putting the theater above our relationship.

Our daughter is also having a major surgery in June. If wife is in back to back productions I will need to put getting home before wife leaves for the theater above my work. My boss will understand, because my wife and I are separated better than "because my wife is participating in community theater".

I cannot lose my job. In addition to being the primary breadwinner, my job covers the the health insurance.


----------



## Chaparral

Has anyone advised you to read Married Man Sex Life? If not you should get it asap. Amazon has it in book form and downloads.

Tjere is also aMMSL blog. 

Good luck


----------



## Acoa

chapparal said:


> Has anyone advised you to read Married Man Sex Life? If not you should get it asap. Amazon has it in book form and downloads.
> 
> Tjere is also aMMSL blog.
> 
> Good luck


Not specifically, but I've seen it talked about and it's on my reading list. I'll move it up in priority.


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## Chaparral

Blog | Married Man Sex Life

link to the blog. The title may lead you to think its a sex guide, its not.


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## MovingAhead

Acoa,

I have total trust issues. I try to deal with them. I try to judge my fiance for who she is and remember she is not my EX who cheated on me numerous times. Yes I have issues, but she works with me. I accept her flaws as she works on them. She accepts my flaws as I work on them.

It is tough. Focus on the positive. Do the right thing and try to be a great husband. I have simple rules with my fiance. No passwords on things... No texts... She gets hit on all the time... old boy friends, new guys... she is beautiful. She tells me. We don't keep secrets.

She knows what bothers me and I know what bother her. Yes I make mistakes and slip and fall and screw up and am a little crazy... It's totally ok. I wasn't perfect before my EX had her affairs. I never will be. I just try to give my fiance the best I can. 

Things will lessen. One thing that will not lessen for me is I will always be vigilant. I am not controlling, but I am a bit overprotective with my fiance. It's ok. She appreciates that I love her and will fight for her so she understands that I am that way because I love her. She is mine. Not as in a trophy, but mine as in we belong together and I'll be dammed if I'm gonna let some jackass come along and step between us


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## Acoa

Started reading MMSL. Interesting read and I see how applying some of ideas will help.

WW and I had a nice chat over dinner last night. She had a play performance in the afternoon and auditions for the next play in the evening, so I met with her in between for dinner. 

This week was a good example of why I don't want her working two performances in a row. Between auditions for one, practices and productions of the other she will be at the theater every night this week. 

I would have to rush home from work in order to have dinner with her, which can't be an every night occurrence. I would have to stay up late to talk with her when she gets home. She gets home normally between 10pm and 11pm. I need to get up for work at 5:30am. So, this can't happen every day either. 

She now clearly understands my point of view. Which is good. In the past I would have just kept it to myself. 

She was still rationalizing how under the right circumstances she might want to work on two back to back(depending on the play and the director). I just told her that I won't control her, she can do what she feels is more important. But I don't want to be in a marriage where I don't get to spend time with my wife. So. If she does that, it will be a sign to me that theater is more important than our marriage.


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## Acoa

Why is she so dense?

A little background...

Tonight was auditions for the next play, which my W is production manager for. The director is a friend, wife babysits his son from time to time and we as a couple are friends with him, his wife and his parents.

She texted me last night at 9:45 saying she was giving the director a ride home and they were still at the theater talking about who to call back.

So I texted her back that if she is going to give him a ride home they need to leave now and she shouldn't talk to him about why. Just say its time to go and get going.

She did get home quickly after the text. GPS showed her to be where she should have been.

When she got home her demeanor was okay. She seemed understanding as to why I rushed her. She did try to 'assure' me that nothing was happening, there were 4 other people at the theater and on the rise home they only discussed the production. 

If you ask her, she would say he is like a brother to her. We have only known them for 3 years. I think it's too soon to draw such a parallel. 

Am I being too controlling here? I don't think so, but I thought I'd ask for other opinions.


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## Acoa

Seems like February was a long month. Lots going on, mostly good stuff. Just interesting how I feel like I haven’t posted in a long time, and it’s only been a few weeks. I thought I’d do a quick update for anyone who may be interested. 

I’m confident now that formerly WW is not in an active affair. I’ve dropped my surveillance to a minimum and that has helped a lot with the constant anxiety of being on ‘red alert’. We are not in a place that I think it could never happen again. I’m not a big fan of ‘never’ anyway. Have you ever noticed that in moves, whenever someone says “I would never do that”, in the very next scene they do that? So, I’ll always have that bit of uncertainty that will keep me looking for red flags. But I think I’m past the hyper vigilance state that I was in for almost a year. 

I’ve been going to my individual counseling and ACA group. Both have helped me understand a lot about myself. I’m starting to work on me and worrying less about her. I can’t fix her. I worry that her low self esteem and need for ego stroking is going to get her into trouble again. She seems aware of it, so maybe that will help her to do better with boundaries. Only time will tell, but I’m at peace with whatever may come. I’ve researched my options for divorce, and have a solid plan on what I will do if she strays again. I’m putting my full effort into a successful reconciliation, but the consequences of her failing to hold up her end are clear.

I’ve been more active with some friends from church, and been playing my clarinet more. I’m working on my improve skills and hope to find a jazz band to join soon. I think that would be a lot of fun. Getting out and developing my own interests is helping as I’m not sitting at home alone ruminating on what she is up to at the theater. 

Wife and I are doing well at doing a date night each week (well, most weeks). Sometimes it’s just dinner and a movie, although tomorrow we are going to learn how to tango. Should be interesting as neither of us are very good dancers and are both very self conscious on a dance floor. I’m not very interested in dancing, but I think it will be a good experience for us to share together. Hopefully doing things outside of our comfort zone together will help bring us closer again. Our lives have gotten so routine, we need something to shake it up. 

Work wanted several of us ‘subject matter experts’ to get more involved with social media. So, now I’m on Facebook, Twitter and Linkedin. I think getting on Facebook (the medium WW used for her EA) has helped demystify it. I’m also more ‘present’ on my wife’s pages. Probably the same satisfaction a dog gets from marking its territory. May not prevent another dog from trespassing, but it makes me feel like I’m doing something active to deter it. 

I think another thing that helped snap me out of my death spiral was a 30 second ride in an elevator at the building I work in. I was heading back up to my office after lunch, when a rather attractive young lady stepped onto the elevator. Her hands were full, so I politely asked what floor, she told me and I hit the button for her. She thanked me, and I told her, “You are very welcome, my mother taught me to be a gentleman to pretty young ladies.” To which she smiled and blushed. Nothing else was said. She did give a quick glance back as she got off the elevator and blushed again. I’ve seen her in passing since, but we don’t talk. I don’t know her name and have no intention of finding out (She works for another company in the same building, that’s about all I know). 

I guess having that young girl blush at me gave me a little empathy for the excitement my wife got from her EA with OM. My wife took it way too far. I’m going to have to look for ways to make my wife blush. I can see where a little of that excitement is needed. I guess that’s one of the reasons that although I don’t like to dance, I’m looking forward to going dancing with my wife tomorrow.


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## AngryandUsed

Have you evaluated your trust levels, of late?


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## Jonesey

did you ever expose the multiple OM´s?


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## Acoa

Both OM are single. A few close friends and our pastor know about it.


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## Acoa

My trust level is naturally low. Things will never be the way they were.


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## Jonesey

Acoa said:


> Both OM are single. A few close friends and our pastor know about it.


ok..Any reason only a few know´s?


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## Chaparral

Has MMSLP helped at all? Any other books?

One of your last posts mentions how she just doesn't get it. Tell her if she gets cheated on in another relationship she will get it then.

Have you read the "Just Let Her Go"post?


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## Chaparral

Here is the post in case you haven't seen it. It doesn't mean just dump her, LOL

*Originally Posted by marduk 
I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.

A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.

Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed? Me. Here’s what I learned:

1. Let her go. You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.

2. Set boundaries, and then stick to them. I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.

3. Be ok with losing her. Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.

4. Do my own thing. I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…

5. Be a father to our children. Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.

6. Get some buddies. Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.

7. Fight different. Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.

8. Act from a place of strength. I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.

9. Be decisive. Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.

10. Know what I want from life. This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.

11. Do more macho stuff. Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a man and not one of her girlfriends.

So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.

Thanks for everything!*


----------



## Chaparral

Here is a post by CarmenOhio about happiness that many have found useful. You might even print it and share it with your wife. When does her IC think she will be ready for MC? (I may have missed that)

*originally posted by carmen ohio:

While I greatly respect the other posters on this thread, I believe many of them, like you, are missing the big picture here -- namely, what should you do to regain your happiness.

From reading your notes, it is clear that you were absent from class the day they handed out the "how to be happy" instructions. So let me fill you in on The 10 Rules for Happiness:

Rule No. 1: You only get one life; never forget that. Corollary: You don't know how long you will live, you could live another 50 years or you might die tomorrow; never forget that either.

Rule No. 2: Deal with things as they really are, not as you would like them to be. Face up to your problems rather than pretending they don't exist or hoping they will simply go away.

Rule No. 3: You are solely responsible for your own happiness: don't expect or look to others to make you happy.

Rule No. 4: Your decisions and actions will have the greatest impact on your happiness. If you do the right things, your life will be better and vice versa. Corollary: Be honest with yourself about your failings and genuinely seek to improve yourself.

Rule No. 5: There is no guarantee that you will always be happy: some people win life's lottery, most don't and some people get the shaft. Corollary 1: Don't complain about the cards you are dealt or wallow in self-pity. Instead, focus on what you can control and learn not to worry about the rest. Corollary 2: Understand that it sometimes takes time and effort to regain your happiness.

Rule No. 6: Understand what makes you happy and what doesn't. Corollary 1: Since you will change over time, reconsider from time to time what will make you happy now and adjust your decisions and actions accordingly. Corollary 2: When something happens that makes you very unhappy, consider the totality of the situation: sometimes cutting down a few trees is the answer, other times you need to look for a new forest in which to live.

Rule No. 7: Do what makes you happy. Don't do what others (parents, friends, bosses, spouses, even children) want you to do unless it is what makes you happy. This might sound selfish but it's not. Some people are happiest when they are serving others (e.g., firemen, Mother Teresa). 

Rule No. 8: If you are unhappy about something, eliminate it from your life or, if that is not possible, minimize the degree of unhappiness it can cause you. If it's a situation (like a bad job), change it. If it's a thing (like a poorly operating car), get rid of it. If it's a person (like a wayward spouse), stop interacting or least minimize contact with the person. Corollary: When something or someone starts to cause you unhappiness, take action immediately; don't wait around hoping things will get better.

Rule No. 9: You don't apologize to anyone for doing what makes you happy. Corollary: You have no obligation to explain yourself or justify your decisions or actions. If you choose to do so, it should only be because it is to your advantage to do so.

Rule No. 10: Be the best person you can be, as you measure things. For most men, this means being fit and attractive to members of the opposite sex, being financially successfully and being emotionally strong and independent. But if you measure life success differently (e.g., displaying Christian virtues, gaining notoriety, acquiring power), then make these the main focus of you efforts.

If we apply these rules to your situation, it become readily apparent that you are breaking all the rules. For example:

☻ You are focused in the moment rather than thinking about how you want to live the rest of your life (violation of Rule No. 1). 

☻ You are more concerned about what your W may or may not have done rather than dealing with what you know she has done (violation of Rule No. 2).

☻ You seek affirmation from your W of your self-worth and the guidance of strangers as to what you should do, rather than taking responsibility for yourself (violation of Rule Nos. 3, 4 and 9).

☻ You are reluctant to take steps to improve your situation and instead are wallowing in self-pity and shame (violation of Rule Nos. 5, 7, 8 and 10).

☻ You seem not to have thought deeply about what you really want out of life (violation of Rule No. 6). 

☻ You reject the notion that your life may have to radically change in order for you to (eventually) be happy (another violation of Rule No. 6).

Based on the facts as you have recited them, I believe you have ample reason to be unhappy in your current circumstances and sufficient justification for taking action. So let me offer you an alternative approach to your problem that is consistent with the Rules of Happiness:

1. Sit your W down and tell her that you are so unhappy with your marriage that you are prepared to end it. Explain that, given what you know (OM's note, her hiding her phone messages, etc.), you can only conclude that either she is having an affair or that she doesn't care about you (as these are the only two reasons why she would not have taken steps to address your concerns when you first raised them). Say that, in either case, you would rather end your marriage than continue it since you deserve and are confident that you can have better than what you have right now.

2. Tell her that, out of love for her and your children, you are willing to give her one last chance to save her marriage and prove to you that she is a worthy wife. This requires her telling you everything that has happened between her and her boss, showing you all of her e-mails and text messages, giving you access to all of her communications in the future, immediately terminating all contact with her boss, demonstrating by word and deed on a daily basis that she loves and respects you and doing whatever else you require for her to prove her worth.

3. Tell her that it is her choice whether to do these things or not but, if she chooses not to, you plan to hire an attorney and file for divorce.

4. Stay calm and collected and don't argue with her. If she questions or challenges anything you say, calmly reply that she now knows what you expect of her and it is up to her to decide what she wants to do. Repeat your message as many times as necessary until she realizes that you mean what you say.

5. Give her a very short period of time to consider this. For example, tell her that you plan to speak to an attorney the next day so, if she wants to save her marriage, she has but a few hours to accept your offer.

6. If she refuses, immediately speak to an attorney and commence divorce proceedings.

7. If she agrees, continue to monitor her closely to make sure she does not go underground. Don't tolerate her complaining or pouting for more than a couple of days. If you get any indication that she is not serious about following through with her promise, start divorce proceedings.

8. For the foreseeable future, be cordial toward your W but nothing more. Don't initiate conversations, compliment her, argue with her or do anything else that would lead her to believe that she is anything special to you. Act at all times like a man who knows what he wants and knows that he can get what he wants, if not from her, then somewhere else.

9. Begin to take steps to improve yourself (exercise, work, activities). Make this -- along with your kids -- the focus of your life for now.

10. Start to educate yourself on what it takes to be a man in the 21st century. A good place to start is to read "The Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay.

If you take these steps, I can't guarantee that you will end up in a happy marriage with your current W but I can promise that, eventually, you will give yourself the greatest chance of finding true happiness. The key point is that you can't control your W but you can control you. Hence, you should be doing the things that will eventually make you happy, whether your W wants to be with you or not.

I'm not saying any of this will be easy; it may be the hardest thing you will ever have to do. But unless you do it, your life will likely only get worse.

Wishing the best for you.*


----------



## Acoa

Jonesey said:


> ok..Any reason only a few know´s?


Main reason, because I'm being to damn nice to her. Her FOO issues relate to some crap between her and her sisters. If they find out she would probably pull out of family functions all together. I'll reserve that disclosure for part of my nuclear option.

The people who know are enough for dealing with what we need to deal with. They can help hold her accountable. She doesn't 'hang out' with her sisters (or see them very often for that matter). 

I have the evidence. If I want to, I can expose at any time. But it's been 10 months now since I've discovered it, more than a year since the incident. She is doing most of the right things, and the things she are not doing are more irritations that outright wrong. So, I'll save the nuclear package for now.


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## Acoa

chapparal said:


> Has MMSLP helped at all? Any other books?
> 
> One of your last posts mentions how she just doesn't get it. Tell her if she gets cheated on in another relationship she will get it then.
> 
> Have you read the "Just Let Her Go"post?


Thanks for the input Chapparal. Yes, MMSLP helped quite a bit. I was being a pouty brat, which isn't attractive at all. 

I don't think she is interested in leaving me for anyone. She was looking for excitement. In our dance of mutually assured destruction, she wasn't doing much to entice me, and I wasn't doing much to excite her. So, we were both bored in our relationship. 

We still have a long way to go, but it's getting better. She is still doing too much at the theater. She is gone 4 to 6 nights per week depending on the week. I show up there on occasion to have dinner with her, a mixed of announced and unannounced(per our agreement). I have access to her phone. I've gotten to know both her friends and her frenemies. 

I don't see any signs of her looking for sexual excitement outside of our relationship. Our sex life has gotten better. I did the 3 panties thing for valentine's day. That's been fun. 

She knows now that I don't like the time is taking at the theater. I don't mind her doing things at the theater, I just think it should be 2nd or 3rd, or maybe 4th priority in life. Right now it's her number 1. She misses family parties, church events and date nights due to theater commitments. If that was for 1 or 2 shows per year it wouldn't be bad. But she is doing 6 to 8 shows per year. She get's maybe 4 weeks off per year when she does that. If it were her full time Job I could understand. But that's on top of her day job. It's just too much. She knows it, but other than talk about it, she hasn't *done *much to slow it down. She does come home right after shows and rehersals now. So, that is one *action* that shows she cares about fixing our relationship. 

I've stopped pushing her on it. When asked I tell her again that I don't like the time she is putting in at the theater. I tell her that if she does back to back performances next season (starts in May) that it will have a negative impact on our reconciliation. But I'm giving her time figure out what works for her. 

She has been 'discussing' out loud the merits of various performances, and hinting at how there are a couple she really wants to work on, blah, blah, blah. I tell her again, that if she does back to back performances next season it will have a negative impact on our reconciliation. I'm trying not to get caught up by her rationalization hamster. She likes to pull me in and then she can do something I don't want and say, "well, we talked about it." Grrr. So, I've taken to ending it with, "sounds like a tough decision. I'm going to the gym, you wanna come?"

Regarding the let her go post; Yes, i've read that in the past. It was a lot of help. I've already done some 'visioning' of what divorced life would look like. Not that I wan't it to come to that. But it does take the fear factor out of it. In an interesting twist, she was checking my browser history to see if I was still surfing porn and she saw I was searching for divorce laws in our state. I told her about the logic behind it and she was pretty damn scared. Broke into tears. What made her even more terrified is I didn't break down and cry, or hold her or comfort her. I just told her that maybe we should get back to marital counseling.

It's looking like April to start marital counseling. She has made some good headway in her individual stuff. She is realizing that she relies way to much on what other people say about her for personal validation. She is becoming aware of how pepole in her life use both positive and negative feedback about her to manipulate her to do things for them. I'm glad she is waking up to that fact. Back when I was saying how just doesn't get it, this was a big part of the "it".


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## Entropy3000

Yet another guy posting how distrustful they are. Or jealous, insecure and controlling. Then they lay out their story and we find they are way way too naive and trusting. That they blame themselves for their natural gut feeling when infidelity is obvious.

I mean come on. She was have a fullblown cybersex and he was blaming himself for his feelings.

Indeed there were no real boundaries to begin with. For a guy with trust issues he sure trusted too much with the whole high school hookup life style.

Again someone who is the extreme opposite of controlling worried about being controlling. It must be in the water. This brain washing appears to be rampant.

BTW, cybersex is NOT just an EA. It is hooking up for sexual purposes.


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## Acoa

Plan 9 from OS said:


> But it sounds to me like you all she has done was to stop the EA's through the communications that you monitor. But the biggest EA that she has and is continuing - The Theater - is still going strong. I still wonder if there is a guy at the theater that she is involved with - either emotionally or possibly physically.


I'm confiden't there is no OM. But you are correct that the theater is her mistress. She is good at it (theater minor in collage) and she loves it. I don't want her to stop. I don't even need that. But you are correct in that she is putting it before reconciling, and that's a problem. My solution is that she limit her involvement to 2 or 3 productions per year, and make sure they don't overlap. That means tops she is gone 3 or 4 nights per week for 8 to 12 weeks per year. I can handle that. 

This yearss productions are published, directors should be selected in 2 weeks. She has already had a couple of them call her to be stage manager or production manager for thier shows should they get the job. She hasn't committed to anyone yet, which is a good sign. But, the year is young. So, we shall see.


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## Acoa

Entropy3000 said:


> Yet another guy posting how distrustful they are. Or jealous, insecure and controlling. Then they lay out their story and we find they are way way too naive and trusting. That they blame themselves for their natural gut feeling when infidelity is obvious.
> 
> I mean come on. She was have a fullblown cybersex and he was blaming himself for his feelings.
> 
> Indeed there were no real boundaries to begin with. For a guy with trust issues he sure trusted too much with the whole high school hookup life style.
> 
> Again someone who is the extreme opposite of controlling worried about being controlling. It must be in the water. This brain washing appears to be rampant.
> 
> BTW, cybersex is NOT just an EA. It is hooking up for sexual purposes.


:iagree: Too much truth in this. Not all of it, but enough of it to hurt.

Been married long enough to at least try to make it work. I've made myself clear to her. Now I'm leaving it to her to decide what she wants. She can pick the theater if that's what she prefers. I just don't want to hear her say, "I love you, you are the most important thing in my life. Ok, i'm leaving for the theatre, see you at midnight."

RE - the cybersex, it is something other than an EA, I agree. But it's also not a PA. It has all the angst and pain of a PA, but without the need for shots. I also think there is less connection to the specific OM. Of course that means any OM with opportunity will do. Not sure that's any better. Just different.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Acoa said:


> I'm confiden't there is no OM. But you are correct that the theater is her mistress. She is good at it (theater minor in collage) and she loves it. I don't want her to stop. I don't even need that. But you are correct in that she is putting it before reconciling, and that's a problem. My solution is that she limit her involvement to 2 or 3 productions per year, and make sure they don't overlap. That means tops she is gone 3 or 4 nights per week for 8 to 12 weeks per year. I can handle that.
> 
> This yearss productions are published, directors should be selected in 2 weeks. She has already had a couple of them call her to be stage manager or production manager for thier shows should they get the job. She hasn't committed to anyone yet, which is a good sign. But, the year is young. So, we shall see.


So why haven't you enforced your boundaries? Do you realize how weak you look? I'm not your wife and I don't know you but even through this medium you sound like you're whining.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Acoa said:


> :iagree: Too much truth in this. Not all of it, but enough of it to hurt.
> 
> Been married long enough to at least try to make it work. I've made myself clear to her. Now I'm leaving it to her to decide what she wants. She can pick the theater if that's what she prefers. I just don't want to hear her say, "I love you, you are the most important thing in my life. Ok, i'm leaving for the theatre, see you at midnight."
> 
> RE - the cybersex, it is something other than an EA, I agree. But it's also not a PA. It has all the angst and pain of a PA, but without the need for shots. I also think there is less connection to the specific OM. Of course that means any OM with opportunity will do. Not sure that's any better. Just different.


Why are you leaving it up to her? They're your boundaries and you're allowing her to decide whether to adhere to them our not? Why should she choose when she has everything she wants right now?


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## bfree

You should be spending 15-25 hours per week with each other, just you and your wife, focused solely on each other. No TV, no computer, no children, no friends. Guess what, your date night going to a movie doesn't count because you are both focused on the movie not each other. So can you both do this given her current schedule?


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## akashNil

My_2nd_Rodeo said:


> Your other problem is that nothing escapes you. You may not have all the facts or details, but when your nose gets on a trail... you usually find something. Your brain will keep grinding away at anything in life that seems slightly odd. My 1st wife took a cell phone call in front of me, everything seemed fine on face value – her disposition, the discussion, the reason for the call, etc. However, I saw an ever subtle eye movement – brief, just a split second. That’s all, that’s it. I knew instantly she was cheating. From there, I snooped and confirmed all my worst fears. That is our curse… we notice every action, movement, expression... no matter how subtle. We bank it, grind it, and come up with a hundred hypotheses about it… then we go into observe & search mode.
> 
> 
> .....
> Eventually, you may even enjoy going out and find yourself worrying a lot less. I am now fearless at parties, dinner events, mixers. I don’t mind walking up to a group of complete strangers and just starting a conversation – in fact it amuses me now. How odd.


Very good comments. Thanks (Although its a very old post).


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## bfree

Your wife is using the theater as an escape just like her affairs. She tries to escape so she won't have to deal with you or the problems in the marriage. If you think about it this is what probably caused you both to disconnect from each other in the first place. Part of being a husband is to be a leader. Your wife keeps pulling away and by not leading her back to the marriage you are pushing her away from the marriage. And the further away she gets the easier it will be to completely disconnect from you and the marriage entirely. Soon she will either have another affair or she will say that you have both drifted apart and should divorce.

My advice is to tell her she must give up the theater for one year while you both work to strengthen the marriage. If you are still together in a year and the marriage is healthier you will both sit down and discuss her return to the theater.


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## Acoa

bfree said:


> Your wife is using the theater as an escape just like her affairs. She tries to escape so she won't have to deal with you or the problems in the marriage. If you think about it this is what probably caused you both to disconnect from each other in the first place. Part of being a husband is to be a leader. Your wife keeps pulling away and by not leading her back to the marriage you are pushing her away from the marriage. And the further away she gets the easier it will be to completely disconnect from you and the marriage entirely. Soon she will either have another affair or she will say that you have both drifted apart and should divorce.
> 
> My advice is to tell her she must give up the theater for one year while you both work to strengthen the marriage. If you are still together in a year and the marriage is healthier you will both sit down and discuss her return to the theater.


Where is the line between leading and controlling? 

At this point, you might say I shouldn't care about that. Work on control 1st then loosen up later. But I'm not one for strict control. If that's what it takes to keep her I don't want her around. If she doesn't want me for who I am, I'd rather she leave. 

The Boundaries I've set at this point she has complied with:
- No contact with her unsavory HS friends.
- Block several people on Facebook. 2 she admitted to having Cyber with, a few others I just didn't like.
- Access to all passwords for all devices / accounts.
- Skip the 25yr HS reunion that was last year
- Started Marital Counseling, but moved to individual therapy due to issues uncovered.
- Keep Facebook chat off and limit time on Facebook to under 1hr per day and not at all on date nights.

In addition to obvious surveillance I’ve logged the main computer she uses, and moved a VAR around from her car, to my car (when she uses it) and left it at home on certain days when I know she will be home alone. All of that has checked out clean. 

I've also asked her to limit her time at theater. She is still working too many productions, but does 'rush' home most nights. Before she would come in at midnight to 3am. Now she is home by 10pm or 11pm, sometimes earlier. 

Theater was not the catalyst for the affair. Is asking her to cut out all involvement in theater punitive?


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## bfree

Your question is irrelevant since one cannot control another. If you told her that she needs to give up the theater for one year in order to repair the damage to the marriage she has a choice. A long as she has a choice then how can you be controlling her? If she declines to quit the theater then you know the marriage is not important to her and therefore not worth saving. The way it is set up now no matter how much you desire it your marriage is doomed to fail because she is not an active participant.


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## bfree

And the boundaries and conditions you stated are not conditions for recovery. They are just common sense in a good marriage. And you don't have a good marriage right now. She really hasn't given anything up has she? My ex cheated on me but my wife has been nothing but loyal and honest. What you describe is pretty much status quo in my house and nobody has cheated. If your wife faces no consequences for her infidelity what's to stop her from doing it again? Her love for you? How did that work out last time? You and she need to reconnect as husband and wife. You can't do that with her in that theater group.


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## bfree

When I get home later tonight I'll post some things for you to read and share with your wife. Whether her giving up the theater is punitive or not doesn't matter. The fact is it's consuming too much time for you to fix this marriage. After you share this info with her you'll know without a doubt if you have her heart or if this is a false reconciliation.


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## Acoa

Bfree, you make sense. Sad part is she feels like she has suffered consquences. I had a good laught at that. If she wanted to suffer we should switch spots. The important part is I agree, i dont feel like she has suffered any consequences. 

I'm going to take a little time to reflect and pray about it. But I'm thinking asking her to take a year off is a good idea.

Thank you for forthright feedback.


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## ubercoolpanda

What consequences has your wife faced since her EA? It seems like all she had to do was delete a couple of her FB friends and not delete any of her texts. 

Besides the pastor, who else knows of this? Has she written a no contact letter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

This information is from Dr. Willard Harley of Marriage Builders. Now I'll say upfront that I don't agree 100% with Dr. Harley's opinions and suggestions. But some of what Dr. Harley recommends my wife and I were doing long before we'd heard of the man. And I can state from experience that what he calls The Policy of Undivided Attention is not only crucial for a good marriage but saying its applicable in your situation would be the biggest understatement in history. I also strongly advise you to read _His Needs, Her Needs_ *with your wife*. Reading _Surviving Infidelity_ wouldn't be a bad idea either.

First I'd like you to watch this video. Its about 30 minutes long but it may be the wisest investment of time you will make.
As a victim of infidelity I will freely admit I wept when I watched this video.

Infidelity: What every couple should know - YouTube!

Now read this and share it with your wife:

The Policy of Unidivided Attention

_The Policy of Undivided Attention

Before you were married, spending time alone with each other was your highest priority. You probably spent the majority of your leisure time together, and the time you spent together was probably the most enjoyable part of every week.

You tried to talk to each other every day. If you couldn't be with each other face-to-face, you talked on the telephone, maybe for hours. And when you were together, you gave each other your undivided attention.

But after marriage, like so many other couples, you may find that you can be in the same room together and yet ignore each other emotionally. What's even worse, you may find that you are not even in the same room together very often, particularly after your children arrived.

One of the more difficult aspects of marriage counseling is scheduling time for it. The counselor must often work evenings and weekends because most couples will not give up work for their appointments. Then the counselor must schedule around a host of evening and weekend activities that take a husband and wife in opposite directions.

But finding time for an appointment seems easy compared to arranging time for the couple to be together to carry out their first assignment. Many couples think that a counselor will solve their problem with weekly conversations in his office. It doesn't occur to them that it's what they do after they leave the office that saves the marriage. To accomplish anything, they must schedule time together -- time to give each other their undivided attention.

It's incredible how many couples have tried to talk me out of their spending more time together. They begin by trying to convince me that it's impossible. Then they go on to the argument that it's impractical. But in the end, they usually agree that without time for undivided attention, they cannot re-create the love they once had for each other.

And that's my point. Unless you and your spouse schedule time each week for undivided attention, it will be impossible to meet each other's most important emotional needs. So to help you and your spouse clear space in your schedule for each other, I encourage you to follow


The Policy of Undivided Attention:
Give your spouse your undivided attention
a minimum of fifteen hours each week,
using the time to meet the emotional needs of
affection, sexual fulfillment, intimate conversation, and recreational companionship.
.
This policy will help you avoid one of the most common mistakes -- neglecting each other after marriage. I have tried to clarify this policy for you by offering three corollaries: Privacy, Objectives and Amount.

Corollary 1: Privacy

The time you plan to be together should not include children (who are awake), relatives or friends. Establish privacy so that you are better able to give each other your undivided attention.

It is essential for you as a couple to spend time alone. When you have time alone, you have a much greater opportunity to make Love Bank deposits. Without privacy, undivided attention is almost impossible, and without undivided attention, you are not likely to meet some of each other's most important emotional needs.

First, I recommend that you learn to be together without your children. This can be very difficult for many couples, especially when children are very young. They don't think that children interfere with their privacy. To them, an evening with their children is privacy. While they know they can't make love with children around, the presence of children prevents much more than sex. When children are present, they interfere with affection and intimate conversation, two very vital needs in marriage. Besides, affection and intimate conversation usually lead to lovemaking, and without them, you will find that your lovemaking suffers.

Second, I recommend that friends and relatives not be present during your time together. This may mean that after everything has been scheduled, there is little time left for friends and relatives. If that's the case, you're too busy, but at least you will not be sacrificing your love for each other.

Third, I recommend that you understand what giving undivided attention means. It's what you did when you were dating. You probably would not have married if you had ignored each other on dates. You may have parked your car somewhere just to be completely alone, and to rid yourselves of all distractions. That's the quality of undivided attention I'm referring to here.

When you see a movie together, the time you are watching it doesn't count toward your time for undivided attention (unless you behave like the couple who sat in front of my wife and me last week!). It's the same with television and sporting events. You should engage in these recreational activities together, but the time needed for undivided attention is different -- it's the time you pay close attention to each other.

Now that you're alone with each other, what should you do with this time? The second corollary answers that question.

Corollary 2: Objectives

During the time you are together, create activities that will meet the emotional needs of affection, sexual fulfillment, conversation and recreational companionship.

Romance for most men is sex and recreation; for most women it's affection and conversation. When all four come together, men and women alike call it romance and they deposit the most love units possible. That makes these categories somewhat inseparable whenever you spend time together. My advice is to try to combine them all.

After marriage, women often try to get their husband to meet their emotional needs for conversation and affection, without meeting their husband's needs for sex and recreational companionship. Men, on the other hand, want their wives to meet their needs for sex fulfillment and recreational companionship, without meeting their wives needs for affection and conversation. Neither strategy works very well. Women often resent having sex without affection and conversation first, and men resent being conversant and affectionate with no hope for sex or recreation. By combining the fulfillment of all four needs into a single event, however, both spouses have their needs met, and enjoy the entire time together.

A man should never assume that just because he is in bed with his wife, sex is there for the taking. In many marriages, that mistake creates resentment and confusion. Most men eventually learn that if they spend the evening giving their wife their undivided attention, with conversation and affection, sex becomes a very natural and mutually enjoyable way to end the evening.

But there are some women who don't see the connection either. They want their husbands to give them the most attention when there is no possibility for sex. In fact, knowing that affection and intimate conversation often lead a man to wanting sex, they try hardest to be affectionate when they are out in a crowd. That tactic can lead to just as much resentment in a man as nightly sexual "ambushes" create in a woman. Take my word for it, the fulfillment of the four needs of affection, conversation, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment is best when they are met together.

Corollary 3: Amount

How much time do you need to sustain the feeling of love for each other? Believe it or not, there really is an answer to this question, and it depends on the health of a marriage. If a couple is deeply in love with each other and find that their marital needs are being met, I have found that about fifteen hours each week of undivided attention is usually enough to sustain their love. When a marriage is this healthy, either it's a new marriage or the couple has already been spending that amount of time with each other throughout their marriage. Without fifteen hours of undivided attention each week, a couple simply can't do what it takes to sustain their feeling of love for each other.

When I apply the fifteen-hour principle to marriages, I usually recommend that the time be evenly distributed throughout the week, two to three hours each day. When time must be bunched up -- all hours only on the weekend -- good results are not as predictable. Spouses need to be emotionally reconnected almost on a daily basis to meet each other's most important emotional needs.

The reason I have so much difficulty getting couples to spend time alone together is that when I first see them for counseling, they are not in love. Their relationship does not do anything for them, and the time spent with each other seems like a total waste at first. But when they spend time together, they learn to re-create the romantic experiences that first nurtured their love relationship. Without that time, they have little hope of restoring the love they once had for each other.

But fifteen hours a week is usually not nearly enough time for couples that are not yet in love. To help them jump-start their relationship, I usually suggest twenty-five or thirty hours a week of undivided attention until they are both in love with each other again.

Your time together is too important to the security of your marriage to neglect. It's more important than time spent doing anything else during the week, including time with your children and your job. Remember that the time you should set aside is only equivalent to a part-time job. It isn't time you don't have; it's time you will use for something less important, if you don't use it for each other.

To help you plan your week with each other's emotional needs in mind, I encourage you to meet with your spouse at 3:30 Sunday afternoon, to look over each other's schedule for the coming week to be sure you have provided time for each other. It's always a good idea to plan a little extra time in case of an emergency that may disrupt your 15 hours.

You have 168 hours every week (24x7) to schedule for something. I highly recommend 8 hours of sleep a night, so that leaves 112 waking hours. Getting ready for the day, and going to bed at night may require, say, 12 hours, and work plus commute may take another 50 hours. That leaves 50 more hours to spend doing what you value most, and 15 of those hours should be dedicated to maintaing a passionate and fulfilling marriage.

If you have not been in the habit of spending 15 hours a week for undivided attention, it will mean that something less important will have to go. But it will radically change your life for the better, because you will be investing in one of the single most important parts of your life -- your relationship with your spouse._


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## See_Listen_Love

Bravo bfree, this is it!


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## Acoa

bfree said:


> I also strongly advise you to read _His Needs, Her Needs_ *with your wife*. Reading _Surviving Infidelity_ wouldn't be a bad idea either.
> 
> First I'd like you to watch this video. Its about 30 minutes long but it may be the wisest investment of time you will make.
> As a victim of infidelity I will freely admit I wept when I watched this video.
> 
> Infidelity: What every couple should know - YouTube!
> 
> Now read this and share it with your wife:
> 
> The Policy of Unidivided Attention


Thanks Bfree. Very powerful video. I'll share the policy with my wife tonight. Should be interesting. Tonight is when I go to group, it's also the only night this week she doesn't do anything at the theater. I've thought about skipping group, but to hell with that. I need it and I have 6 other nights free this week. She should be bending her schedule to accomodate me, not the other way around.

I've seen the recommendation for his needs / her needs. Discussing our perspectives on the book would be good. it's something I would like to do together with her, but it requires her to make the time. Which is still an obvious issue with us. 

I've already read Surviving Infidelity. I undersand her affair. I'm willing to move forward. But she needs to change her behavior or it's just going to repeat. It will be a different medium, a different guy and is more likely to go physical. 

I've also checked out not just friends from the library. I read it and gave it to her to read. She got about halfway through then she lost it. Which reminds me I still need to go back and pay for the book.  You know what, to hell with that too. I'll give her my card tonight and tell her to go in a take care of it. She lost the book, she can fix it.


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## bfree

I have a few thoughts that will help you to present this to her in a way that is clear and concise and will limit the objections that will most likely come up. I will post those when I get home around 9am. Just a quick question. The group that you go to one night a week, is it a church group? Is your wife welcome to attend? If not is there another group that meets at the same time that she would be welcome at?


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## bfree

Ok, I'm home.

First thing. Keep this in mind at all times. *YOU* do not require her to quit the theater. *THE MARRIAGE* needs her to spend the time necessary in order to repair the relationship. This is important to remember and it has to be the mindset you have when you talk to her. Next, you should be shooting for 30 hours a week of time together. 15 hours is for a healthy marriage but if you read what I posted it said 30 hours for a troubled marriage. And your marriage is troubled. Also, keep in mind that although she didn't have an affair at the theater her participation in the theater most likely weakened her boundaries. People who get involved in theater need to have extra strong boundaries because of the emotionally charged atmosphere and general fantasy mindset. The year off from the theater will not only help you both to reconnect but it will allow her to strengthen her boundaries so that if/when she returns she will be a stronger individual more able to stay grounded. Depending on how she receives information you may or may not want to bring that up to her. If she is the type to say "I have weak boundaries!!!!" or "what's wrong with my boundaries?!" maybe you should just let that go until you are actively working on reconciliation.

The conditions you set for her *DO NOT* address the marriage itself. They only allow you to feel safe to begin working on the marriage without the fear of her betraying you again. The marriage itself is still sick and needs care and nourishment if it is to survive. Right now with her gone almost all the time your marriage is slowly withering and dying. She will either end up in another affair or she will give you the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech and then she will file for divorce. Much better if you find out now where her priorities lie so you can decide the future of the marriage and for yourself.

When you talk to her she *MUST* give you an answer right there and then. No taking time to think it over. If your marriage means anything to her then she will decide to do what is best for it without having to think about it right? So when you talk to her you need an answer *NOW*. Do not back down from this. If she says she won't give up the theater or she can't answer you then you tell her you will be contacting a lawyer right away to initiate divorce proceedings. She has to know you are serious and this is not a joke. If you waffle at all you're done. You have already been too wishy washy as it is. You need to take a stand for yourself and more importantly for your marriage. And remember, divorces take a long time. If she reconsiders and decides to give up the theater after all then you can always stop the divorce. But if she thinks you are bluffing she will call you on it. Only if she is faced with losing everything will she really take a hard look at what she is doing. So show the resolve and strength necessary to help you both.

So this is how I would present it. Obviously you would present it in your own words.

_Wife, we are at a crisis point in our marriage as you already know. Things are not good and probably haven't been for a while now. I asked you to do some things for me in light of your affair that would help me to stay with you. But these things just allowed me to feel safe to stay in a relationship with you. They do not address the our sick marriage. While the choice to have an affair is yours and the consequences of that decision are yours I acknowledge that we both played a significant role in the breakdown of our marriage. It is time that we started repairing our relationship and strengthen our marriage. Our date nights are good but they are only a band-aid when our marriage really needs CPR. I want you to read this information by Dr. Harley because I have come to see that this is what our marriage needs to survive. (Show her the Policy of Undivided Attention)

Now we need to spend 30 hours per week on our marriage. I am willing to devote the time and energy necessary to saving our marriage. However, your involvement in the theater does not allow you the time to work on repairing our marriage. So I am asking you to give up your theater involvement for one year and work with me on saving our marriage. After a year if we are still together and our marriage is stronger we can sit down and talk about you returning to the theater. And I need an answer right now because quite frankly I am at the point where I believe that you value the theater more than you value our marriage. I consider our marriage to be the most important thing in my life. If our marriage is truly the most important thing in your life then your decision is not a difficult one and you can decide now. However if you can't find it in your heart to commit to our marriage what it requires to thrive and live then I can only conclude that it is not important to you and frankly neither am I. In that case I will see an attorney next week in order to begin divorce proceedings._

At this point she will probably try to find reasons to refuse to give up the theater. It would be natural for her to do this. If she says you are trying to control her or you are being unreasonable just keep reiterating that the marriage requires this and if the marriage is important to her she will help you to save it. If she says she has commitments to the theater and/or her friends ask her if these commitments are more important to her than her commitment to you. If she brings up your weekly meeting then I would suggest to her that she accompany you to these meeting (or another meeting if she can't go with you to yours.) If she continues to push that she shouldn't have to give up her theater while you continue to go to your meeting then I would tell her that if she considers your meetings to be interfering in the marriage you will give them up because your marriage IS the most important thing to you. (Note that I do not believe that she will actually make you give up your meetings unless it is just a night out with friends kind of thing. If the meeting is something like a Bible study or other fulfilling thing she will probably back down.)

This is how I would handle the talk with her. I think if you continually bring it back to what is important *FOR THE MARRIAGE* then she really can't object too much unless the marriage is not important to her. And in that case its better to find out now rather than have to deal with the anguish of another affair or sit there and watch your marriage slowly starve to death.


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## Acoa

Thanks Bfree. Pretty scared right now, but I guess that's normal. We didn't hash things out last night, but I did give her the link to the video, she will probably watch it this afternoon and we will talk when she gets home from the theater tonight.

The meeting last night was an ACA meeting. It's a 12 step program for people who are adult children of alcoholics. Many of us (including me) carry over behaviors learned in childhood to our adult life, recreating dysfunctional patterns in our relationships (also me!). So, she should not come to it with me. We meet for coffee to socialize a bit after the meeting usually. She can come out for coffee if she wants. I can also skip coffee and head home after the meeting (which I didn't, but I only stayed 30 minutes to socialize). 

When I gave her the link to the video she was confused. She thinks things are going well and that our problems were solved. She was mildly surprised when I told her I've been unhappy. I say mildly because it wasn't a total shock. She knows I'm good at holding stuff in, so I can be hard to read. I think she was more or less hoping I would let it drop (aka, sucessfully rugsweep).

I informed her I was being patient as we worked on our individual issues before regrouping to work on the marriage. But I'm tired of waiting and we need to get back to it. If she thinks things are better it's only because not much has changed, except for me. I told her I'm tired of doing all the work and biting my tongue and holding it in. I told her I feel like I'm paying the price for her mistake, and she got off with almost no consequences. She mentioned she didn't go to her 25th class reunion, and that not all of the friends I had her unfriend were boundary issues, but because they were in the same 'circle' she agreed to cut contact. That fits with your comment that she did what it took to make me feel safe, but she hasn’t yet done anything to solve the problem in our relationship. 

She asked me if I was unhappy enough that I wanted out of the marriage. I said yes, that was very much on my mind. I let her know that I love her, and I'm willing to work on it. But she needs to put more effort into than I am. I’ve changed a lot of things in my life and am working on becoming a better communicator, but we will need to spend a lot more time together. We focused on that for a bit, but didn’t make any good progress. I wasn’t ready to have the pick now or I walk conversation, so I just listened to her rationalization hamster for a while. Blah, blah, blah we never spent much ‘alone’ time together, even when we were dating. Blah, blah, blah what would we do with more time, we have nothing to talk about (I open laughed at her when she said that). Blah, blah, blah, we are doing date nights every week, isn’t that good enough? And my favorite,” if you do leave me, all I will have is my theater friends, I don’t want to abandon those relationships as I might need them.” This was in relation to her still working back to back productions because she "made commitments" to them last year. I reminded her she made a commitment to me 22 years agao. In an interesting twist, her ‘nightmare’ has always been (even pre-affair) that I would leave her because of something she did. 

Once she got through that I left to drop my son off at the school for his choir practice and went to my meeting. It was around 10pm when I got home, we snuggled on the couch and watched a show that recorded, but didn’t talk much. 

I did give her my library card before I left for my meeting and asked her to fix it. She lost the book, she should take care of it. So, she went to the library yesterday and settled up. Between the lost book on my card and the fines on her card cost us a whopping $90. But, she took care of it without an argument. One good sign in a sea of trouble. 

The groundwork seems to be well set for the next stage of the discussion. I plan to talk to my therapist prior to asking her to stop theater for a year. I need to have my head on straight for that conversation or I will waffle.


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## bfree

Acoa said:


> Thanks Bfree. Pretty scared right now, but I guess that's normal. We didn't hash things out last night, but I did give her the link to the video, she will probably watch it this afternoon and we will talk when she gets home from the theater tonight.
> 
> The meeting last night was an ACA meeting. It's a 12 step program for people who are adult children of alcoholics. Many of us (including me) carry over behaviors learned in childhood to our adult life, recreating dysfunctional patterns in our relationships (also me!). So, she should not come to it with me. We meet for coffee to socialize a bit after the meeting usually. She can come out for coffee if she wants. I can also skip coffee and head home after the meeting (which I didn't, but I only stayed 30 minutes to socialize).
> 
> When I gave her the link to the video she was confused. She thinks things are going well and that our problems were solved. She was mildly surprised when I told her I've been unhappy. I say mildly because it wasn't a total shock. She knows I'm good at holding stuff in, so I can be hard to read. I think she was more or less hoping I would let it drop (aka, sucessfully rugsweep).
> 
> I informed her I was being patient as we worked on our individual issues before regrouping to work on the marriage. But I'm tired of waiting and we need to get back to it. If she thinks things are better it's only because not much has changed, except for me. I told her I'm tired of doing all the work and biting my tongue and holding it in. I told her I feel like I'm paying the price for her mistake, and she got off with almost no consequences. She mentioned she didn't go to her 25th class reunion, and that not all of the friends I had her unfriend were boundary issues, but because they were in the same 'circle' she agreed to cut contact. That fits with your comment that she did what it took to make me feel safe, but she hasn’t yet done anything to solve the problem in our relationship.
> 
> She asked me if I was unhappy enough that I wanted out of the marriage. I said yes, that was very much on my mind. I let her know that I love her, and I'm willing to work on it. But she needs to put more effort into than I am. I’ve changed a lot of things in my life and am working on becoming a better communicator, but we will need to spend a lot more time together. We focused on that for a bit, but didn’t make any good progress. I wasn’t ready to have the pick now or I walk conversation, so I just listened to her rationalization hamster for a while. Blah, blah, blah we never spent much ‘alone’ time together, even when we were dating. Blah, blah, blah what would we do with more time, we have nothing to talk about (I open laughed at her when she said that). Blah, blah, blah, we are doing date nights every week, isn’t that good enough? And my favorite,” if you do leave me, all I will have is my theater friends, I don’t want to abandon those relationships as I might need them.” This was in relation to her still working back to back productions because she "made commitments" to them last year. I reminded her she made a commitment to me 22 years agao. In an interesting twist, her ‘nightmare’ has always been (even pre-affair) that I would leave her because of something she did.
> 
> Once she got through that I left to drop my son off at the school for his choir practice and went to my meeting. It was around 10pm when I got home, we snuggled on the couch and watched a show that recorded, but didn’t talk much.
> 
> I did give her my library card before I left for my meeting and asked her to fix it. She lost the book, she should take care of it. So, she went to the library yesterday and settled up. Between the lost book on my card and the fines on her card cost us a whopping $90. But, she took care of it without an argument. One good sign in a sea of trouble.
> 
> The groundwork seems to be well set for the next stage of the discussion. I plan to talk to my therapist prior to asking her to stop theater for a year. I need to have my head on straight for that conversation or I will waffle.


Then I would consider your meetings no different from counseling sessions and if she objects to that then I guess you know where you stand. I am troubled by her comment that she can't give up her friends in case you don't work out. It makes me believe that she is resigned already to your marriage ending and likely has been for a while now. That makes it even more important that you have this conversation with her to see if there is anything to save. I would suggest that you add one other thing to your conversation in light of her comments. Ask her if you do divorce what is she going to do once her days of theater are over and you're gone? Will her theater friends be there years from now like you would be? Is she really willing to give up her marriage and the security of spending her life with someone who loves and cares for temporary enjoyment with temporary friends? Who knows, maybe she is but you need to know that.

As far as what would you two do with more time how about stay married? If she wants to spend virtually all of her time away from you then why are you actually married at all? You can date someone once a week and not be married to them. Marriage is a little more than that right? My wife and I do everything together and enjoy each other. Maybe the fact that she's spent all this time away from you has made her forget all the things you can and should be doing together.


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## tom67

bfree said:


> Then I would consider your meetings no different from counseling sessions and if she objects to that then I guess you know where you stand. I am troubled by her comment that she can't give up her friends in case you don't work out. It makes me believe that she is resigned already to your marriage ending and likely has been for a while now. That makes it even more important that you have this conversation with her to see if there is anything to save. I would suggest that you add one other thing to your conversation in light of her comments. Ask her if you do divorce what is she going to do once her days of theater are over and you're gone? Will her theater friends be there years from now like you would be? Is she really willing to give up her marriage and the security of spending her life with someone who loves and cares for temporary enjoyment with temporary friends? Who knows, maybe she is but you need to know that.
> 
> As far as what would you two do with more time how about stay married? If she wants to spend virtually all of her time away from you then why are you actually married at all? You can date someone once a week and not be married to them. Marriage is a little more than that right? My wife and I do everything together and enjoy each other. Maybe the fact that she's spent all this time away from you has made her forget all the things you can and should be doing together.


Yea her remarks sound like she makes the theater priority #1 that's really sad. Sounds like you will have to file to see if that will maybe change her thinking. Plus do you want to be with someone who isn't into you I hope like Bfree said she realizes what she will be losing.


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## bfree

It's funny that she says you never spent much time together so why start now when it's obvious that everything that has happened is precisely because you don't spend enough time together. If you don't change what you're doing you'll get the same result...disconnect and affair.


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## Acoa

Option 2 is I start participating at the theater. She has made clear I'm welcome to. I do know a few people there. But my interest in theater is much lower than hers. It also seems like I would be 'rewarding' her bad behavior. So, I don't think I want to do that. Maybe after she takes a year off I'd feel different about it. But I can't really say right now. Still too raw. 

But as you correctly state, we need more time together. Even if it's 'forced' and 'awkward' for a while, it needs to be done. She watched the video this afternoon. She called me and said she was still going to the theater tonight to make sure everything is in order (The play she is production managing opens tomorrow), but she won't stay for the rehersal. She will come home so we can talk.


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## Chaparral

Acoa said:


> Where is the line between leading and controlling?
> 
> At this point, you might say I shouldn't care about that. Work on control 1st then loosen up later. But I'm not one for strict control. If that's what it takes to keep her I don't want her around. If she doesn't want me for who I am, I'd rather she leave.
> 
> The Boundaries I've set at this point she has complied with:
> - No contact with her unsavory HS friends.
> - Block several people on Facebook. 2 she admitted to having Cyber with, a few others I just didn't like.
> - Access to all passwords for all devices / accounts.
> - Skip the 25yr HS reunion that was last year
> - Started Marital Counseling, but moved to individual therapy due to issues uncovered.
> - Keep Facebook chat off and limit time on Facebook to under 1hr per day and not at all on date nights.
> 
> In addition to obvious surveillance I’ve logged the main computer she uses, and moved a VAR around from her car, to my car (when she uses it) and left it at home on certain days when I know she will be home alone. All of that has checked out clean.
> 
> I've also asked her to limit her time at theater. She is still working too many productions, but does 'rush' home most nights. Before she would come in at midnight to 3am. Now she is home by 10pm or 11pm, sometimes earlier.
> 
> Theater was not the catalyst for the affair. Is asking her to cut out all involvement in theater punitive?


If she wasn't having a PA, why in the world ws she coming home at 3 am. And now she doesn't.

Have you read MMSLP yet? It doesn't look like it.


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## Chaparral

Acoa said:


> Option 2 is I start participating at the theater. She has made clear I'm welcome to. I do know a few people there. But my interest in theater is much lower than hers. It also seems like I would be 'rewarding' her bad behavior. So, I don't think I want to do that. Maybe after she takes a year off I'd feel different about it. But I can't really say right now. Still too raw.
> 
> But as you correctly state, we need more time together. Even if it's 'forced' and 'awkward' for a while, it needs to be done. She watched the video this afternoon. She called me and said she was still going to the theater tonight to make sure everything is in order (The play she is production managing opens tomorrow), but she won't stay for the rehersal. She will come home so we can talk.


I think you should start participating in the theater at least to some extent, call it scouting the lay of the land. Asking her to quit theater for a year sounds very harsh. Even if she goes along with it, then you have another issue, extreme resentment. Plus, now she thinks you have one foot out the door. She should cut back on the theater no doubt but totally droping it sounds unreasonable to me.


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## bfree

chapparal said:


> I think you should start participating in the theater at least to some extent, call it scouting the lay of the land. Asking her to quit theater for a year sounds very harsh. Even if she goes along with it, then you have another issue, extreme resentment. Plus, now she thinks you have one foot out the door. She should cut back on the theater no doubt but totally droping it sounds unreasonable to me.


Ok, why do you think giving up the theater is too harsh. Its not her job, its a hobby. The OP has asked her numerous times to cut back because she spends way too much time there and she has so far declined. Plus she had an affair which Acoa is still trying to recover from without her help since she is gone most nights. How do you suggest he and she rebuild their marriage if she is never there?


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## bfree

Acoa said:


> Option 2 is I start participating at the theater. She has made clear I'm welcome to. I do know a few people there. But my interest in theater is much lower than hers. It also seems like I would be 'rewarding' her bad behavior. So, I don't think I want to do that. Maybe after she takes a year off I'd feel different about it. But I can't really say right now. Still too raw.
> 
> But as you correctly state, we need more time together. Even if it's 'forced' and 'awkward' for a while, it needs to be done. She watched the video this afternoon. She called me and said she was still going to the theater tonight to make sure everything is in order (The play she is production managing opens tomorrow), but she won't stay for the rehersal. She will come home so we can talk.


You participating in the theater with her might be fine down the road but that still doesn't provide you and your wife with time alone to reconnect with each other. And you'd be surprised how much you can find to do together when you both really try. I don't think you'll be forcing it for very long if you both commit to each other.


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## bfree

Also Acoa, when she talks about having to give up friends remember that friends that are not agreed upon are out. Friends that are not friends of the marriage are enemies of the marriage. It goes for both of you.


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## Acoa

chapparal said:


> I think you should start participating in the theater at least to some extent, call it scouting the lay of the land. Asking her to quit theater for a year sounds very harsh. Even if she goes along with it, then you have another issue, extreme resentment. Plus, now she thinks you have one foot out the door. She should cut back on the theater no doubt but totally droping it sounds unreasonable to me.


I've gone to a couple cast parties and have helped the theater's board of directors by converting thier membership lists from a word document to an access database. I also helped out with the auction they ran as a Christmas fundraiser. So, I'm getting to know the theater people. There are a handful of single people there (3 or 4) that I don't trust. But a majority are married, have good views on marriage and gennerally seem to be 'good eggs'. You never know with people, but I guess I'd say I'd rather she hang out with theater people than the old friends from high school. If she starts hanging out with high school friends I'll be gone, no discussions. 

I may try for some middle ground. Perhaps not taking a full year off. Just the summer. Our 14 year old daughter is having major surgery in June and will need a lot of our attention. She is already planning to take off which ever production falls in June. But I think it would be useful to extend that into July and August. Less chance of resentment as it's more reasonable than taking off a full season. That, and no back to back productions after she restarts would be zero theater for 3 months, then at most two productions from Sept to January. That would be 8 x 4 day weeks over 5 months. I could tolerate that.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

Acoa, my SIL is a dance instructor and I know what you mean. There was time a few years back when her Husband(my Brother) was starting to get ticked off with how much time it was taking away from the Family. She had rescitals for two differant dance schools in the same month. He was seriously considering telling her "The studios, or me", but she backed off on her own after that(they have 3 boys, btw). Luckly for him there was not any "outside influances" added to the mix. If that were the case, I think he might have called it quits on the marriage, not to metion the fact that I would have brained her. People involved in the preforming arts seem to have a difficult time balancing home and the stage.


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## Acoa

chapparal said:


> If she wasn't having a PA, why in the world ws she coming home at 3 am. And now she doesn't.
> 
> Have you read MMSLP yet? It doesn't look like it.


Regarding the 3 am. I'm torn. She swears up and down she wasn't having a PA. They would just all go hang out at someone's house and chat after the play. Plays were getting out around 11pm. So they closed the house down by 11:30is (sometimes 12am), then they would go hang out together. She said I was welcome to come, but I think she knew the chances of me wanting to go out at midnight were pretty slim. I was also buried deep in my World of Warcraft addiction at that point. So, there wasn't much for her to come home to but the back of my head. It was 1am 2 or 3 times per month and 3 am a few times in that 6 month streach of hell that lead up to Dday. 

I'm not dumb. It's more likely than not there is more going on than she is admiting to me. She swears there is not, but given her oscar winning performance when she lied to me about the cybersex, her word isn't worth the breath it takes to give. I've debated the merits of a lie detector, and I don't think its worth it. Given my neglect and porn use, i'll just chalk it up to the part of the past I'll never know for sure. The cyber and lying bad enough for me to demand some things change in our relationship. I'll judge her based on her current actions (which are improved by not yet enough).

I know she is not currently involved in an affair, and she 'says' she is committed to proving her self to me. She has taken some steps, but not enough. So, it's time to push her. Okay, past time to push her. That would have been 10 months ago, but I still had my head up my ass. So, i'll do it now. Things need to change, or what Bfree said will happen. The cycle will repeat. I see that very clearly. 

And I did read MMSLP. I'm going to my therapy and group each week. I'm teaching myself Jazz improv and will be playing with some folks from Church. Not working out as regular as I'd like to, but getting there. Weight is down 10lbs. 30 more to go, but it's making a difference. I'm eating a lot healthier, and the kids are with me on it. Wife doesn't like 'rabbit' food as she calls it. But the kids and I are eating fun things like Kale and loving it. 

I save my complaining for this board now. (aren't you all the lucky ones). 

I need to start working on some closer 'guy friends'. The group of 'buddies' I do have are really more fishing buddies than anything else. And we only fish once a year. I'm hoping the jazz band at church works out, that would be both fun and connecting with a very pro marriage group of guys.


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## bfree

Acoa said:


> Regarding the 3 am. I'm torn. She swears up and down she wasn't having a PA. They would just all go hang out at someone's house and chat after the play. Plays were getting out around 11pm. So they closed the house down by 11:30is (sometimes 12am), then they would go hang out together. She said I was welcome to come, but I think she knew the chances of me wanting to go out at midnight were pretty slim. I was also buried deep in my World of Warcraft addiction at that point. So, there wasn't much for her to come home to but the back of my head. It was 1am 2 or 3 times per month and 3 am a few times in that 6 month streach of hell that lead up to Dday.
> 
> I'm not dumb. It's more likely than not there is more going on than she is admiting to me. She swears there is not, but given her oscar winning performance when she lied to me about the cybersex, her word isn't worth the breath it takes to give. I've debated the merits of a lie detector, and I don't think its worth it. Given my neglect and porn use, i'll just chalk it up to the part of the past I'll never know for sure. The cyber and lying bad enough for me to demand some things change in our relationship. I'll judge her based on her current actions (which are improved by not yet enough).
> 
> I know she is not currently involved in an affair, and she 'says' she is committed to proving her self to me. She has taken some steps, but not enough. So, it's time to push her. Okay, past time to push her. That would have been 10 months ago, but I still had my head up my ass. So, i'll do it now. Things need to change, or what Bfree said will happen. The cycle will repeat. I see that very clearly.
> 
> And I did read MMSLP. I'm going to my therapy and group each week. I'm teaching myself Jazz improv and will be playing with some folks from Church. Not working out as regular as I'd like to, but getting there. Weight is down 10lbs. 30 more to go, but it's making a difference. I'm eating a lot healthier, and the kids are with me on it. Wife doesn't like 'rabbit' food as she calls it. But the kids and I are eating fun things like Kale and loving it.
> 
> I save my complaining for this board now. (aren't you all the lucky ones).
> 
> I need to start working on some closer 'guy friends'. The group of 'buddies' I do have are really more fishing buddies than anything else. And we only fish once a year. I'm hoping the jazz band at church works out, that would be both fun and connecting with a very pro marriage group of guys.


You vent as much and as often as you need to. That's why we're here.


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## Acoa

bfree said:


> Ok, why do you think giving up the theater is too harsh. Its not her job, its a hobby. The OP has asked her numerous times to cut back because she spends way too much time there and she has so far declined. Plus she had an affair which Acoa is still trying to recover from without her help since she is gone most nights. How do you suggest he and she rebuild their marriage if she is never there?


I don't think it's too harsh. I'm sure she will. I'm also mostly sure (99%) that if I demanded that or divorce she would give it up. But I'm also sure she would resent it. She has plenty of that already with her sisters and father. I'm not sure I want to get lumped in with that baggage. 

If things dont' get better, I may have to make her choose between me or theater. But I can hang tough a little bit longer and try some in between steps. For me theater is not the problem. It's that she spends more time there than with me. So, right now I think that's my focus. Spend 25 hours per week with me. She can figure out how to balance her life to accomplish that. I'm available 6pm to 11pm 4 weeknights and 7am to 11pm Saturday and Sunday. That's 50 hours of availability.


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## bfree

Acoa said:


> I don't think it's too harsh. I'm sure she will. I'm also mostly sure (99%) that if I demanded that or divorce she would give it up. But I'm also sure she would resent it. She has plenty of that already with her sisters and father. I'm not sure I want to get lumped in with that baggage.
> 
> If things dont' get better, I may have to make her choose between me or theater. But I can hang tough a little bit longer and try some in between steps. For me theater is not the problem. It's that she spends more time there than with me. So, right now I think that's my focus. Spend 25 hours per week with me. She can figure out how to balance her life to accomplish that. I'm available 6pm to 11pm 4 weeknights and 7am to 11pm Saturday and Sunday. That's 50 hours of availability.


I'm very concerned that your worry about her resentment is going to cause you to capitulate and nothing will be accomplished. She had an affair and hasn't exactly been very helpful in working on the marriage. How can she resent you when she had the affair? How can she resent you when she is the one taking time away from the marriage? What about your resentment? If you have her only take a couple of months off and she insists on starting back up with the theater again and things aren't really where they need to be I can see you calling the marriage quits due to resentment issues. Why are you so afraid to hold her accountable for her behavior? Not just the affair but the marriage itself. As an outside observer I think asking her to take JUST A YEAR OFF from the theater is not only reasonable its downright lenient. And you said that your daughter is having major surgery in June? How much "couple time" do you think you'll be getting in during that period? I really think you are very much underestimating what its going to take to get your marriage back on track. By shortchanging yourself before you even start I don't see this working for you. Look at your posts. You seem to be a pretty reasonable guy. Too reasonable it seems to me. And I can feel the resentment starting to build in you. How is it going to be when in July your wife starts back up at the theater and you haven't really accomplished anything. And now you don't have this card to play anymore because you used it up on asking for only a couple of months. I think you'll throw in the towel and give up. Why can't you shoot for a year and if things work out better than expected you can always let her go back early?


----------



## bfree

She's going to resent spending time with the one person she is supposed to love? Really? Have you thought about that?


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## Chaparral

Acoa said:


> I've gone to a couple cast parties and have helped the theater's board of directors by converting thier membership lists from a word document to an access database. I also helped out with the auction they ran as a Christmas fundraiser. So, I'm getting to know the theater people. There are a handful of single people there (3 or 4) that I don't trust. But a majority are married, have good views on marriage and gennerally seem to be 'good eggs'. You never know with people, but I guess I'd say I'd rather she hang out with theater people than the old friends from high school. If she starts hanging out with high school friends I'll be gone, no discussions.
> 
> I may try for some middle ground. Perhaps not taking a full year off. Just the summer. Our 14 year old daughter is having major surgery in June and will need a lot of our attention. She is already planning to take off which ever production falls in June. But I think it would be useful to extend that into July and August. Less chance of resentment as it's more reasonable than taking off a full season. That, and no back to back productions after she restarts would be zero theater for 3 months, then at most two productions from Sept to January. That would be 8 x 4 day weeks over 5 months. I could tolerate that.


That sounds like a plan but I think you need to more than just hope that what she will do. More like , make a timeline and go over it with her and let her know exactly what you want. No dancing around or hinting, just pure honest communication in a friendly matter. If she refuses then I would tell her she may as well schedule all the theater projects she can. Start the 180 and find a good divorce attorney.

If your communication was working she would not be saying things like "I thought things were good now". He who hesitates loses.


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## My_2nd_Rodeo

I havent posted in bit of time... but I've kept seeing this thread pop up on my cell app.

The theater .... I have experience with this from a couple i was friends with.

She spent a lot of time at the theatre (hopeful hobbyist that acted and did stagework). She hooked up, her husband got all the way towards divorce, and then she convinced him it would never happen again.

Reluctantly the man decided to stay with her, and never really trusted her but tried again. About a year after having a baby with him, she cheated again. He D'd her.

The theatre has such a high sxual energy amongst workers... it's kinda obvious why. Fyi married people are the opposite of safe in this environment - dont feel that the married guys are safer (they might be much worst).

You are too nice and worried about her resenting you. I think it would be good to see if she would actually resent you. 

Tell her you want her to quit... don't assume what she will do... see what she will do. Oh, and dont waffle and say when, or if, she can return to it. Just say she needs to quit and be with her family till further notice. Have a pair 

You can then tell a lot about her real commitment in the weeks to come. How she acts and how she bad mouths you in private correspondences to men and women (hopefully not).

The world isn't going to end if she takes a few months off from shows.

I think most here suspect what would happen... since she is clearly 98% self absorbed/selfish.

You NEED to witness her reactions to build a case TO YOURSELF, whether this marriage is broken (It is , but you apparenlty need a mountain of evidence to justify the hard choice - like I do).

Go at your pace though, so you will have no regrets for your decision.

I suspect that you will, forever with her, carry insecurity. Want to live that way for the next 30 years?


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## Acoa

bfree said:


> She's going to resent spending time with the one person she is supposed to love? Really? Have you thought about that?


I don't think she will resent spending time with me. I think it’s the ultimatum that would cause the resentment. Besides, then I'd have to wonder, did she do it because she wanted to be with me, or out of fear of losing her cushy lifestyle? If we really want to theorize about the worst case, one year of capitulation is a small price to pay to have a life where you don't have to worry about earning money and have a husband as accommodating and reasonable as I am. I make a good buck and we are not wanting for anything material. 

I'd rather see her back off theater because she knows our marriage needs the time. I'd rather SHE choose rather than force her. I have the power to force her into compliance. But what kind of marriage would that be? Not one that I'd want to be part of.

For my part, I need to work on clearly articulating that need for more time with her. And it has to be more than I 'would like' or my typical wishy washy BS. I like Chap's idea of putting together a timeline. To spend the kind of time with me that I believe we need to fix our marriage she is going to have to give up theater. I dont' need to demand she give up theater. I just need to demand the time. If she doesn't give up the theater, I won't get the time. Even is she tries to balance both at 1st she is going to have to make daily choices. If she chooses theater over me, I can do as Chap suggests and tell her to go ahead and fill up her calendar with theater stuff and do the 180. 

I already have a lawyer. Papers can be served quickly. As a nice touch, I'd have her served at the theater.


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## Acoa

My_2nd_Rodeo said:


> You NEED to witness her reactions to build a case TO YOURSELF, whether this marriage is broken (It is , but you apparenlty need a mountain of evidence to justify the hard choice - like I do).


I have no doubt it's broken. I'm trying to decide if it's worth fixing. For that, yes, i need lots of evidence to justify. 

Wife claims to think it's not broken. I have my doubts that she really believes that. 

She knows that I believe it's broken, and that without change it will be over. 

She did come home early last night (9pm) as she promised. But was sick (running a fever), so we didn't relly do much other than get to bed early. 

She plans to take Saturday off from the theater so we can have the whole day together. There is a family party from 4 to 6, but other than that the day is ours. So, I can give her my demands and we can have lots of time to discuss / abosrb /argue or whatever comes of it.


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## bfree

Acoa said:


> I don't think she will resent spending time with me. I think it’s the ultimatum that would cause the resentment. Besides, then I'd have to wonder, did she do it because she wanted to be with me, or out of fear of losing her cushy lifestyle? If we really want to theorize about the worst case, one year of capitulation is a small price to pay to have a life where you don't have to worry about earning money and have a husband as accommodating and reasonable as I am. I make a good buck and we are not wanting for anything material.
> 
> I'd rather see her back off theater because she knows our marriage needs the time. I'd rather SHE choose rather than force her. I have the power to force her into compliance. But what kind of marriage would that be? Not one that I'd want to be part of.
> 
> For my part, I need to work on clearly articulating that need for more time with her. And it has to be more than I 'would like' or my typical wishy washy BS. I like Chap's idea of putting together a timeline. To spend the kind of time with me that I believe we need to fix our marriage she is going to have to give up theater. I dont' need to demand she give up theater. I just need to demand the time. If she doesn't give up the theater, I won't get the time. Even is she tries to balance both at 1st she is going to have to make daily choices. If she chooses theater over me, I can do as Chap suggests and tell her to go ahead and fill up her calendar with theater stuff and do the 180.
> 
> I already have a lawyer. Papers can be served quickly. As a nice touch, I'd have her served at the theater.


Acoa, if you read MMSL and understood what Athol was talking about you would know that you have to be the leader in your marriage. Leading is not being passive agressive and letting her choose. Leading is telling her what you want and need and demanding it be done or your done. You're being too passive here. In her state of mind do you really think she will choose to give up something she loves? She doesn't see your marriage as a problem because she is still cake eating. She still gets her theater group and a marriage to you. That is until you finally get fed up with her being gone so long and file for divorce. Then she'll wonder what happened because you never told her what you really wanted. All you did was hint and make covert contracts. Did you read NMMNG because that is what you are doing right now...making covert contracts. "If she really loved me she'd give up the theater for me without me asking. If she doesn't then she doesn't love me so I will divorce her." You aren't really telling her what you need so that is a covert contract. Its in your head but nobody elses. Nice guys do that because they don't want to appear controlling. They don't want to deal with potential confrontations. And ultimately they lose because all they had to do was actually say what they wanted and needed and they'd actually get it!


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## Acoa

bfree said:


> Did you read NMMNG because that is what you are doing right now...making covert contracts. "If she really loved me she'd give up the theater for me without me asking. If she doesn't then she doesn't love me so I will divorce her." You aren't really telling her what you need so that is a covert contract.



Your post hit like a punch to the gut. I think you hit the nail on the head.


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## bfree

Acoa said:


> Your post hit like a punch to the gut. I think you hit the nail on the head.


Then change the way you interact with her.

Acoa, you said she was surprised when you said you weren't happy in the marriage. Could it be that she really was surprised because you've never actually told her what will make you happy? Frankly I think its very mean of you to not give her any guidelines as to what you expect from her and what you expect from your marriage. Why don't you simply state your expectation up front? There is nothing wrong with telling her what will make you happy. There is nothing wrong with telling her what you see as a good marriage. There is everything wrong with keeping her in the dark.

Stop saying things like this:

Dear, do you think you could spend less time at the theater?

Dear, do you think you could find time for me and time for your theater?

Dear, do you think you could take a month off from theater so we can spend time together?

What drivel! There is no clear cut expectations here. There is no leadership going on. You aren't giving her any indications that you are unhappy at all.

How about this.

Dear, I am very unhappy with how much time you are spending at the theater. Frankly I'm wondering why we're married at all considering we almost never see each other. Our marriage is in bad shape right now and we both need to work on it if we are to save it. So I want you to quit the theater until further notice so that we can save our marriage. We can talk about you going back to the theater when our marriage is strong enough to survive your absence. It may be a month, a year or never but until we are ok as a couple you cannot participate in the theater. If you cannot find it in yourself to give the marriage the same time and energy as I am willing to then I suggest we part ways. You can have your theater and your theater friends and I can find a woman that wants a relationship with me as much as I want a relationship with her. So what is your answer. I need one right now.

Because you felt demanding a year off might create resentment I changed it to an open ended time frame. This way you have set clear expectations about what you expect from her and from the marriage. She now has a choice and because she has a choice you cannot be accused of being controlling


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## Acoa

The covert contracts thing is from No More Mr. Nice Guy, the book by Dr. Robert Glover. 

Not that that affects your advice. I'd heard the reference before but didn't recall it from MMSL. So, I looked it up. Just setting the reference straight. 

The thing that gets me about MMSL is adapting it to the time we spend together. I get great sex 2 or 3 times per week. I may have to wait up late to get it, but I get it anytime I want, sometimes when I don't. So, low sex drive or begging for sex has never been an issue. 

Time to pick up a copy of NMMNG.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Acoa said:


> The covert contracts thing is from No More Mr. Nice Guy, the book by Dr. Robert Glover.
> 
> Not that that affects your advice. I'd heard the reference before but didn't recall it from MMSL. So, I looked it up. Just setting the reference straight.
> 
> The thing that gets me about MMSL is adapting it to the time we spend together. I get great sex 2 or 3 times per week. I may have to wait up late to get it, but I get it anytime I want, sometimes when I don't. So, low sex drive or begging for sex has never been an issue.
> 
> Time to pick up a copy of NMMNG.


Yes, MMSL will help you with leadership but covert contacts are from Dr Glover's book No More Mr Nice Guy which can be downloaded for free btw. In either case you need to change your approach. For what it's worth Mrs bfree wanted me to reiterate to be clear about what you want and need to your wife. She says women can sometimes get wrapped up in their own heads and can't just know what you want. They appreciate a man being direct and strong and setting a clear direction. She also says that if your marriage fails and you didn't let your wife know there were serious problems she is going to feel worse for your wife. She said Mrs Acoa will be in shock and completely distraught at the end of everything she probably holds dear.


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## TRy

bfree said:


> There is no clear cut expectations here. There is no leadership going on. You aren't giving her any indications that you are unhappy at all.
> 
> How about this.
> 
> Dear, I am very unhappy with how much time you are spending at the theater. Frankly I'm wondering why we're married at all considering we almost never see each other. Our marriage is in bad shape right now and we both need to work on it if we are to save it. So I want you to quit the theater until further notice so that we can save our marriage. We can talk about you going back to the theater when our marriage is strong enough to survive your absence. It may be a month, a year or never but until we are ok as a couple you cannot participate in the theater. If you cannot find it in yourself to give the marriage the same time and energy as I am willing to then I suggest we part ways. You can have your theater and your theater friends and I can find a woman that wants a relationship with me as much as I want a relationship with her. So what is your answer. I need one right now.


 bfree is spot on. Do this now. 

You gave up your online game for her, she can give up her hobby too. BTW, when my wife complained about my online game, I gave it up the spot to focus on our marraige and then asked her to respond in kind, which she did. You have a right to ask that she respond in kind too. Especially in light of her past cheating, as this would be a direct consequence of her cheating.


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## Acoa

We talked last night. Didn't go well at all. She would 'hate herself' for breaking commiments to the 2 productions she is currently involved with. She will take June, July and August off, but plans on working 2 productions later in the year. It was all about her, her and more her. 

I told her she might as well fill up the calendar for the year. I told her I would not continue to wait, and that it would be the end of our marriage. She said I was being black & white and that I should be more reasonable. I just said I was done being reasonable and went to bed. I got the answer I didn't want. But at least I got a clear answer.

We had planned a 'date day' on Saturday. I'll tell her in the morning that the path she has chosen in clear, and that there is not really any point to continuing a half hearted attempt at reconciling. There is a family birthday party late afternoon. Not sure I should go to it. Might blow it off to go to poker night with the guys from work (they play 1 Saturday per month, but I typically don't go, but might be a good thing to start).


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## bfree

Acoa said:


> We talked last night. Didn't go well at all. She would 'hate herself' for breaking commiments to the 2 productions she is currently involved with. She will take June, July and August off, but plans on working 2 productions later in the year. It was all about her, her and more her.
> 
> I told her she might as well fill up the calendar for the year. I told her I would not continue to wait, and that it would be the end of our marriage. She said I was being black & white and that I should be more reasonable. I just said I was done being reasonable and went to bed. I got the answer I didn't want. But at least I got a clear answer.
> 
> We had planned a 'date day' on Saturday. I'll tell her in the morning that the path she has chosen in clear, and that there is not really any point to continuing a half hearted attempt at reconciling. There is a family birthday party late afternoon. Not sure I should go to it. Might blow it off to go to poker night with the guys from work (they play 1 Saturday per month, but I typically don't go, but might be a good thing to start).


Now is the time to follow what is described on here as the 180. It will help you detach and start focusing on yourself. She may still come around but its no longer something you need be concerned about. Now she needs to decide how important you and her marriage are to her. As of now she has chosen herself, her friends and her needs over you. Time for you to do the same. Maybe she will beging to see the seriousness of the situation when you have her served. See a lawyer as soon as you can and get the process moving. If things change you can always stop it. I'm sorry you didn't get the cooperation you need and that she will not commit to you and the marriage. At least now you know and can start planning accordingly.

If the birthday party is with her family I would probably skip it as well. I imagine it will be incredibly awkward and difficult for you if you attend. Does anyone know about her affair? Does her family know? Just be prepared that she might start spinning a story to them that makes her look good and you look bad.


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## Acoa

Sitting with my Lawyer on Tuesday. 

Yes, the party is with her family. No, they don't know about the affair. Specifically she wanted to keep that away from her sisters. The kids know what's going on. I'll call her Dad and tell him why I'm not coming (The party is at his house). If she still wants to spin a story I guess that's up to her. I won't sweat it. Lying always catches up with the liar.


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## tom67

Acoa said:


> Sitting with my Lawyer on Tuesday.
> 
> Yes, the party is with her family. No, they don't know about the affair. Specifically she wanted to keep that away from her sisters. The kids know what's going on. I'll call her Dad and tell him why I'm not coming (The party is at his house). If she still wants to spin a story I guess that's up to her. I won't sweat it. Lying always catches up with the liar.


Tell her dad about the affair just very matter of fact.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



tom67 said:


> Tell her dad about the affair just very matter of fact.


Acoa, I might suggest doing that. Maybe her family can talk some sense into her. You can just say that she had inappropriate contact with another man and now refuses to work on the marriage with you.


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## Acoa

She just sent me a text saying she backed out of helping with the next production. 

I'm thinking of saying okay to letting her finish the current production. (no more rehersals, there are 15 performances over the next 4 weeks.) She only goes to those performances. I'd go with her to the cast party. Then she is done with theater until we both agree that it's okay to return (and the pace of that return). That could be in 4 months, it could be in 2 years. She would have to accept the open endeness of it.

I'm looking for a sanity check. Is that too much comprimise? She is production manager for the current performance, and backing out of it would probably preclude any director from ever working with her again. So, i'm inclined to allow it.


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## tom67

Acoa said:


> She just sent me a text saying she backed out of helping with the next production.
> 
> I'm thinking of saying okay to letting her finish the current production. (no more rehersals, there are 15 performances over the next 4 weeks.) She only goes to those performances. I'd go with her to the cast party. Then she is done with theater until we both agree that it's okay to return (and the pace of that return). That could be in 4 months, it could be in 2 years. She would have to accept the open endeness of it.
> 
> I'm looking for a sanity check. Is that too much comprimise? She is production manager for the current performance, and backing out of it would probably preclude any director from ever working with her again. So, i'm inclined to allow it.


I would then spend the time with her sat. but tell her to think about it over the weekend because if she wants back in she has to be fully back in, if she isn't she will just hold resentments for quitting. It's a tough call on this one.


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## bfree

Acoa said:


> She just sent me a text saying she backed out of helping with the next production.
> 
> I'm thinking of saying okay to letting her finish the current production. (no more rehersals, there are 15 performances over the next 4 weeks.) She only goes to those performances. I'd go with her to the cast party. Then she is done with theater until we both agree that it's okay to return (and the pace of that return). That could be in 4 months, it could be in 2 years. She would have to accept the open endeness of it.
> 
> I'm looking for a sanity check. Is that too much comprimise? She is production manager for the current performance, and backing out of it would probably preclude any director from ever working with her again. So, i'm inclined to allow it.


Ok, I'm going to say what I'm thinking. She had an affair. If she was a faithful spouse and this was a difficult marital problem then I could see you compromising. However, she betrayed you and frankly has faced no consequences whatsoever. The small concessions that she made are a drop in the ocean in comparison to what she should be doing. What you need to understand here is that you have a boundary. You've already stated the boundary and you were 100% right to do so. If you now move this boundary what signals are you sending? That your boundaries are negotiable? Do you really want her to think that in light of her recent unfaithfulness? Her text also signals to me that while she is very stubborn she actually knows that you are correct and she is responding to your strength. If you waffle she is going to think once again that if she gives you a token crumb you will back off. Your show of strength and leadership is then null and void. I believe that if you hold your ground she will eventually agree to your request. I also do not believe that you are correct in that she will resent you. In the short term maybe she will be a little upset but your newfound strength and leadership demonstration will more than offset any hard feelings she might initially have.


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## bfree

Also, let me add that I don't think this would sabotage any future theater activites at all. And I'm not all that sure you should really care in light of everything that she has done recently. I wouldn't respond to her text at all. That's the first thing. When she comes home I would completely ignore her as if you didn't get the text at all. When she brings it up, and she will, simply say that it doesn't change anything because by that time the divorce paperwork will have already been filed. What was it you said to her? I'm not willing to wait anymore. You are correct, you shouldn't be kept waiting to try to save your marriage and she shouldn't be asking you to wait. If she faces no consequences from her act of betrayal what will stop her from doing it again?

Let me add that if you both were to go to MC and this issue was brought up, any good counselor would say that she needs to quit the theater and spend that time working on the marriage. Dr. Harley is no fool. What he says works. So if a MC said that would she quit? So then what is the problem with you asking her to recommit to the marriage in a meaningful way? Not sometime in the future but now when it matters most.


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## Acoa

Two more text messages asking if I got her 1st one and a voice mail asking me to call her. I'm meeting with my pastor to pray with me tonight. I don't think I'll see her until after she is done with the play tonight. I'll stay dark until then.


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## bfree

Acoa said:


> Two more text messages asking if I got her 1st one and a voice mail asking me to call her. I'm meeting with my pastor to pray with me tonight. I don't think I'll see her until after she is done with the play tonight. I'll stay dark until then.


Good. I'm praying for you also Acoa.


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## Chaparral

The affair was an ea right? I think you should take her up on the offer. By the end of summer you should no whether or not things are improving well enough for more theater productions, divorce or whatever. It looks like you have her shook and really thinking what is important. Hopefully you can work together and make your family work.


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## See_Listen_Love

Acoa,

You need now to stop the thinking about it all and choose your action from what posters here suggest. Discuss them here beforehand. This actionplan will save you, not your evaluation and rethinking. People here have lot's of experience.

You do fine now, keep it that way. Stall your feelings and be rational.


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## Acoa

She stayed home Friday night and all day yesterday. She is at a baby shower now, but will be home for dinner. She has found people to fill in for most the current production but will need to go a couple more times over the next 3 weeks, but not more than 1 night per week.

She is not going to commit to anything new until we are both ready. We start MC again next weekend.

Thanks everyone for their advice. So far it looks like its working.


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## bfree

Acoa said:


> She stayed home Friday night and all day yesterday. She is at a baby shower now, but will be home for dinner. She has found people to fill in for most the current production but will need to go a couple more times over the next 3 weeks, but not more than 1 night per week.
> 
> She is not going to commit to anything new until we are both ready. We start MC again next weekend.
> 
> Thanks everyone for their advice. So far it looks like its working.


That is progress Acoa. Keep holding your frame but I'd really feel good about this development. Hopefully you have a good MC and they can help to add some real structure to things. Just make sure to insist that spending time together is imperative for YOU to stay in the relationship. As long as the MC agrees with you, and if he/she is a good one they will, then hopefully things will keep moving down a positive path. Keep us updated and use this forum to vent if you need to. We'll be here if you need us.


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## Chaparral

Have you read any recommended books?
Don't be afraid to bail on an MC and get another. There are many horror stories here about MCs blaming the loyal spouse for the waywards transgressions.

Yes you may be part of any problems but be wary and not afraid to try out another or more MCs.
Good luck and prayers


----------



## bfree

chapparal said:


> Have you read any recommended books?
> Don't be afraid to bail on an MC and get another. There are many horror stories here about MCs blaming the loyal spouse for the waywards transgressions.
> 
> Yes you may be part of any problems but be wary and not afraid to try out another or more MCs.
> Good luck and prayers


And just remember Acoa that Dr Harley and Marriage Builders offers counseling as well. I've read that their weekend Marriage Builder's seminar is extremely helpful and rewarding. They also have a radio call in show and telephone counseling.


----------



## Acoa

Quick recap for those who don't want to go back and read the long version:
- Moved back to hometown in 2009. Wife started reconnecting with high school friends.
- Wife's Mom died 2011, wife was not spending much time at home anymore. Out with HS friends, just starting community theater.
- May 2012 I found evidence that wife was having Cybersex over FB with old HS friend. Wife lies about it until I show proof. Admits there was one other guy too. Denies anything was ever physical, and that she quit the Cybersex in July 2011 before I found out about it. 
- Start MC in June 2012, stop in Sept 2012 to work on individual therapy. Wife is no contact with HS friends, shared passwords and covert monitoring in place. However, still very active in Theater, spending more and more time working on productions. 
- Last week, getting fed up about the lack of focus on the marriage I'm ready to call it quits. I see the disconnect happening again, and believe it's only a matter of time until she connects with someone outside of the marriage.
- After getting advice from the posters here, I confront the wife, tell her to back out of theatre to focus on the marriage or it's over. Talk doesn't go well. She goes through a long list of reasons she can't. We both go to bed angry, I stop talking to her and prepare to file for divorce.
- The next day after trying to get in contact with me she backs out of the next upcoming production. That night when we get home, we talk/argue some more. She agrees to quit the current production too, and not resume theater responsibilities until we are both ready.

Other than the baby shower we spent the weekend together. We decided to just do things together and try to have some fun. Last week got pretty heated and stressful and we both needed some time to cool off. 

We will talk tonight after dinner about future plans. I'm going to keep my demands to a simplified, we must spend 25 to 30 hours per week together. (Other things like full transparency, passwords and no contact with the high school crowd remain in place of course.) 

I do not think she is having an affair with someone at the theater. I do think she is using the theater as an escape to not deal with problems (In our marriage and her own). I worry that if she continues that without fixing the problems 1st, it leaves our marriage vulnerable and it’s only a matter of time until something happens again. That is why she needs to put time as a couple together as the number one priority. 

From our individual therapy, here what I know about each of our underlying issues:
Me – Raised in an alcoholic home with physical abuse and emotional abuse. Early addictions to drugs and alcohol myself, stopped before we got married. Addictions to work and gaming on and off over the past 20 years. I’m a people pleaser and have trust issues. I don’t let people get close to me out of fear they will cause me pain. 
 Her – Raised in a narcissistic home. She is the oldest of 6, the 2nd in birth order has done some pretty nasty stuff to her (stealing friends, stuff, breaking what she can’t take). So, wife is insecure, fear of abandonment and is a bit of covert narcissist herself. She has an overwhelming need to be praised. Give her a little and she will eat out of your hand, criticize her and she feels rejected and abandoned. 

When I’m in people pleasing mode, she is as happy as a pig in slop. However, I deny my own needs when I’m in that mode, and gradually spiral into depression. Then I self-medicate (compulsive masturbation, video games, work or booze) and it numbs me so I don’t feel bad. Then I ignore her and she feels rejected and looks for some other source of narcissistic supply. Keep in mind she is not the nasty type of narcissist and she doesn’t recognize it in herself at all. That would make her like her dad, and I could call her any nasty thing in the book before I could tell her she is like her dad. 

That is the cycle we need to break. I’m avoiding the self-medicating with success for now. I’m still doing too much people pleasing. I’ve downloaded NMMNG and think that book holds some promise for helping me break some of those habits. I’m hopeful that her therapist has recognized the narcissistic stuff and can help her to recognize that in herself. 

It’s this complexity that has me just focused on getting the time together for now. I’m not sure what to put into a longer timeline, but hopefully it involves doing more together. Who knows, maybe someday I’ll stop resenting the theater enough to get involved in it with her. Right now the place feels like my competition, so spending time there sucks.


----------



## Chaparral

NMMNG is very good depending on your situation.

MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER is a MUST read for every man. I would read it frist and then NMMNG. 

The reason for MMSLP is it will tell you why married women will leave a marriage.


----------



## Acoa

I downloaded MMSLP on my kindle app some months ago. It's been helpful and has good advice. I was much more aggressively sexually when we were younger. But as the years went on, between kids, too much work and too big a belly things slacked off (by off I mean once a week instead of daily). We are back up to 2 or 3 times per week and I think the playfulness factors is creeping back in. I think 'number' wise we are both pretty equal. Not supermodels, but not troglidites either. 

But there is more to our story than is covered by MMSLP. If she was just bored with me, or not turned on by me then I think things would be quite different. I definetly think she needed more attention than I was giving her. But at the same time she wasn't making it easy to spend time with her. I'm seeing some nice guy tendancies that I have, and I think working on those will go along way. Hence reading NMMNG right now. 

We were moving couches Sunday when we found the copy of "Just Friends" that she lost. So, she is going to finish that and we can start talking about mutual boundries that we can both agree on. 

I've read surviving the affair as well as several Adult Children of Alchoholics books. 

I'll suggest to her that we do his needs/her needs next as a mutual read and we can discuss it as we go.


----------



## Woodchuck

Acoa said:


> She stayed home Friday night and all day yesterday. She is at a baby shower now, but will be home for dinner. She has found people to fill in for most the current production but will need to go a couple more times over the next 3 weeks, but not more than 1 night per week.
> 
> She is not going to commit to anything new until we are both ready. We start MC again next weekend.
> 
> Thanks everyone for their advice. So far it looks like its working.


It sounds like you and your wife are not connecting on an emotional level.......

my wife and I have been married 47 years...Our marriage was in a bad place, to the point of discussing divorce...After a big blowout, she said someone told her about a book that might help....I was so desperate I ordered it that day....Ten bucks on ebay...

The book was "The 5 Love Languages"...I had NO hope the book would help...When we got it, she started reading it, but after a couple of chapters had to do chores, so I picked it up and started reading...The premise is simple, The wording isn't psycological crap, and it made sense....I don't think I put the book down till I finished it......Then the wife picked it up, and finished reading it....

A person feels good about the person who fulfills them emotionally...It makes that person EASY TO LOVE...

The whole point of the book is that different people need different things to feel emotionally fulfilled...You speak the language you understand to your mate, and they reply in the language they understand.....If both don't speak the same languages they do not give their mate the emotional support they they crave...They become emotionally bankrupt....

There are 5 languages:
1 Acts of service
2 physical touch
3 Words of affirmation
4 Quality time
5 gifts


If you need "Physical touch" And your mate speaks gifts...
You are craving a hug, and sex, and she buys you a ROLEX......
You become emotionally bankrupt.....

Your wife craves "words of affirmation", and you tile the bathroom....She is going to be pissed....

You are both saying I love and support you, and both of you hear 
nothing but gibberish....

If two people decide they want to love one another, and want their partner to be emotionally fulfilled, The book will show both of them how...

People who learn how to communicate have less conflict...It's as simple as that...

Saturday my wife was in a bad mood...We are doing some work on the kitchen, and she felt she had wasted the morning because she couldn't find a light fixture....She came home and began acting out in a negative manner.....In the past I would have picked up on it, fed off of it, and a blowout would have ensued...DEAD CERTAIN.....

Instead I tried to tease and reason her out of her mood...Everything stayed light, and no fighting...

Sunday I lay down after breakfast to watch TV. The wife joind me and said she had been silly for being in such a bad mood the day before, and was very affectionate....

We had HONEYMOON SEX for 3 hours.....It was absolutely one of those lovemaking sessions that you always remember.....

It was not the first time we have done that since reading the book........

How much would a day like that mean to you.....

If you look up my threads last Oct.-Dec. You will ses the absolute hell my life was then....If someone had told me they could make this big a change in my marriage, for $5,000 cash....I would have paid GLADLY.....Not bad for $10 on ebay....

Good luck
the woodchuck


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Acoa said:


> Quick recap for those who don't want to go back and read the long version:
> - Moved back to hometown in 2009. Wife started reconnecting with high school friends.
> - Wife's Mom died 2011, wife was not spending much time at home anymore. Out with HS friends, just starting community theater.
> - May 2012 I found evidence that wife was having Cybersex over FB with old HS friend. Wife lies about it until I show proof. Admits there was one other guy too. Denies anything was ever physical, and that she quit the Cybersex in July 2011 before I found out about it.
> - Start MC in June 2012, stop in Sept 2012 to work on individual therapy. Wife is no contact with HS friends, shared passwords and covert monitoring in place. However, still very active in Theater, spending more and more time working on productions.
> - Last week, getting fed up about the lack of focus on the marriage I'm ready to call it quits. I see the disconnect happening again, and believe it's only a matter of time until she connects with someone outside of the marriage.
> - After getting advice from the posters here, I confront the wife, tell her to back out of theatre to focus on the marriage or it's over. Talk doesn't go well. She goes through a long list of reasons she can't. We both go to bed angry, I stop talking to her and prepare to file for divorce.
> - The next day after trying to get in contact with me she backs out of the next upcoming production. That night when we get home, we talk/argue some more. She agrees to quit the current production too, and not resume theater responsibilities until we are both ready.
> 
> Other than the baby shower we spent the weekend together. We decided to just do things together and try to have some fun. Last week got pretty heated and stressful and we both needed some time to cool off.
> 
> We will talk tonight after dinner about future plans. I'm going to keep my demands to a simplified, we must spend 25 to 30 hours per week together. (Other things like full transparency, passwords and no contact with the high school crowd remain in place of course.)
> 
> I do not think she is having an affair with someone at the theater. I do think she is using the theater as an escape to not deal with problems (In our marriage and her own). I worry that if she continues that without fixing the problems 1st, it leaves our marriage vulnerable and it’s only a matter of time until something happens again. That is why she needs to put time as a couple together as the number one priority.
> 
> From our individual therapy, here what I know about each of our underlying issues:
> Me – Raised in an alcoholic home with physical abuse and emotional abuse. Early addictions to drugs and alcohol myself, stopped before we got married. Addictions to work and gaming on and off over the past 20 years. I’m a people pleaser and have trust issues. I don’t let people get close to me out of fear they will cause me pain.
> Her – Raised in a narcissistic home. She is the oldest of 6, the 2nd in birth order has done some pretty nasty stuff to her (stealing friends, stuff, breaking what she can’t take). So, wife is insecure, fear of abandonment and is a bit of covert narcissist herself. She has an overwhelming need to be praised. Give her a little and she will eat out of your hand, criticize her and she feels rejected and abandoned.
> 
> When I’m in people pleasing mode, she is as happy as a pig in slop. However, I deny my own needs when I’m in that mode, and gradually spiral into depression. Then I self-medicate (compulsive masturbation, video games, work or booze) and it numbs me so I don’t feel bad. Then I ignore her and she feels rejected and looks for some other source of narcissistic supply. Keep in mind she is not the nasty type of narcissist and she doesn’t recognize it in herself at all. That would make her like her dad, and I could call her any nasty thing in the book before I could tell her she is like her dad.
> 
> That is the cycle we need to break. I’m avoiding the self-medicating with success for now. I’m still doing too much people pleasing. I’ve downloaded NMMNG and think that book holds some promise for helping me break some of those habits. I’m hopeful that her therapist has recognized the narcissistic stuff and can help her to recognize that in herself.
> 
> It’s this complexity that has me just focused on getting the time together for now. I’m not sure what to put into a longer timeline, but hopefully it involves doing more together. Who knows, maybe someday I’ll stop resenting the theater enough to get involved in it with her. Right now the place feels like my competition, so spending time there sucks.


Hey, you could write a self help book seen your experiences and insights!

Does she acknowledge these issues about the same way as you do?


----------



## Acoa

Woodchuck said:


> It sounds like you and your wife are not connecting on an emotional level.......
> 
> my wife and I have been married 47 years...Our marriage was in a bad place, to the point of discussing divorce...After a big blowout, she said someone told her about a book that might help....I was so desperate I ordered it that day....Ten bucks on ebay...
> 
> The book was "The 5 Love Languages"...


Read that a few months back. Me - Quality Time / Physical Touch, Her - Words of Affirmation / Gifts. 

It's been difficult to give her words of affirmation. Really damn tough. I've focused on the gifts, I'm pretty creative and it's easier to plan something like that out and not screw it up in the heat of the moment. For the words of affirmation I've also put cards and notes in the gifts talking about the things I like about her. 

She does good with the physical touch, but has been woefully absent for quality time. Backing off theater will help here. So I am looking forward to the next couple of weeks.


----------



## Acoa

See_Listen_Love said:


> Hey, you could write a self help book seen your experiences and insights!
> 
> Does she acknowledge these issues about the same way as you do?


Lol, thanks. I don't think I'm in a position to do much but write a case study on how not to handle Dday. 

She is on board with everything but her covert narcissism. According to her she just needs more positive acolades and affirmations; there is nothing wrong with her. :scratchhead:

Some of the reading i've done describe a type of co-narcissism a child of a narcissist can carry into adult relationships. She shows enough empathy that I don't think she is narcisistic to the core like her dad. But it's more than the typical need / appreciation of being praised for a job well done. One of these days we'll get our finger on it and both agree, then we can cope with it better.


----------



## Acoa

Been a while. I thought I'd give a brief update. 

I've been doing a lot of reading. Took a weeks vacation for myself to go off into the woods and fish. Was nice just leaving everything behind. I was worried that I'd be paranoid about leaving WW alone for the week, but I was able to keep that at bay most of the week. It crossed my mind a couple of times, wondering what she was up to. We had pretty limited communication, but she did a good job of keeping me posted about what was going on back home. I found the week away very enjoyable. I think a lot had to do with the lack of triggers.

She has pulled back from theater. We have gone to a party or two together. But nothing that I'm not comfortable going to. We are seeing a new therapist tonight. Last one was pushing to rugsweep, and I'm not done processing everything. 

We are doing date nights and eating meals together at the table to give us time to talk as a family. 

I need to work on making the gym a habit. I'm fighting a mild depression (is there such a thing as mild?) and I think that will help. My therapist wants me to talk to my doc about meds. But I'd prefer to stay off them. I find that when I work out vigorously at least 3 times per week I feel pretty good. But I keep falling off that horse. I'll consider meds if I stop eating or getting up for work. As long as I'm functional I'll push through it.

I think the focal question for me is to define what I want out of our relationship. Fidelity is a given. But I mean what do I want? I have a real hard time defining that. 

She has ended her affair. No contact with OM for a year now. She isn't going out without me anymore. Yet, I still feel hollow. I'm going through the motions and she is playing her part. We have our good times too. It's not all empty. But especially when I'm at work, and just trying to go about my day I find it extremely depressing.

I don't think the fact it feels empty is her issue. That's mine. I'm just not sure what to do about it right now.


----------



## CEL

Got a quote for you from Gross Pointe Blank "I have a hole in my soul it is my job to fill it." Looks like your marriage is going good so talk to her about your feelings and where you are I don't think you are feeling this because of the relationship I think it is more a personal thing. I grew up with alcoholics as well both my mom and dad they started in the morning and finished when they passed out at night. My whole family is like that. I get mildly depressed with heavy dose of blah whenever I don't have a project I am excited about "working out, playing flute, working on stories, reading". My guess is you are in between passions at the moment so look around and I have faith you will find something that will interest you. Just my rambling opinion.


----------



## Acoa

Big set back this week. She texted "Joe" (they friend from 3rd grade she was trying to meet for lunch, not the cybersex guy). 

She had been talking to one of her girlfriends Dee and she mentioned her baseball team was playing him that night. She texted him to wish him 'good luck'. He responded thanks, then she mentioned she was still working on her marriage and that we should try to get both families together sometime. 

She didn't mention anything to me about it, but she didn't delete it. The text was about a week old when I saw it Tuesday. I was pissed. 

I confronted her about making contact again with him without discussing it with me. I had asked her not to contact him again until we had sorted things out. She claims she thought things were going well, so they were 'sorted'. She defended the texts tooth and nail as nothing bad. 

We didn't talk much at all yesterday. I took youngest Daughter to the doctor (Her surgery is next week) for the pre surgical clearance visit. 

We talked again this morning. She is still defending her actions. She agreed not to text him again and to show me any texts he sends to her. 

Nothing new on the VAR. 

I'm left to assume she doesn't mean any harm by her actions. She just doesn't understand the pain her betrayal caused and this guy's tie in to that. 

She asked me point blank what my problem with him is. I told her that she was setting up a secret meeting with him for lunch, that's what my problem was. She said it wasn't secret, she just didn't tell me about it. WTF?

I think the underlying difference that is causing the tension is that she thinks it's okay for a guy and a girl to go have a meal together to 'catch up' on things. In my opinion, that is a date and married people shouldn't be dating. She thinks I'm overreacting. She thinks I misunderstood her reasons for wanting to meet up with Joe. 

She knows I was hurt by the cybersex discovery, but she thought that she had 'proven' the Joe thing was 'innocent'. I told her nothing was 'proven'. We had put working through these things on hold, and they were on hold too long. Now that we are trying to work on them again she just want's to get past it and not keep repeating the same ground over and over. 

I'd like to implement the 180, but I'm a little unsure of what change I'd be looking for out of her.


----------



## Chaparral

The 180 is what you use to prepare for divorce. Is that your goal?


----------



## ArmyofJuan

She is to understand she is NOT allowed to have close friends of the opposite sex. She has shown you she can't be trusted regardless of how "harmless" her relationship with them is. You got her lying to your face, all bets are off with trust now.

Its a slipper slope and only a matter of time before lines are crossed and you get the "I didn't mean for it to happen" excuse.

If she doesn't like it she knows where the door is. When you get married you give up your right to date other people.


----------



## Davelli0331

Acoa said:


> Big set back this week. She texted "Joe" (they friend from 3rd grade she was trying to meet for lunch, not the cybersex guy).
> 
> She had been talking to one of her girlfriends Dee and she mentioned her baseball team was playing him that night. She texted him to wish him 'good luck'. He responded thanks, then she mentioned she was still working on her marriage and that we should try to get both families together sometime.
> 
> She didn't mention anything to me about it, but she didn't delete it. The text was about a week old when I saw it Tuesday. I was pissed.
> 
> I confronted her about making contact again with him without discussing it with me. I had asked her not to contact him again until we had sorted things out. She claims she thought things were going well, so they were 'sorted'. She defended the texts tooth and nail as nothing bad.
> 
> We didn't talk much at all yesterday. I took youngest Daughter to the doctor (Her surgery is next week) for the pre surgical clearance visit.
> 
> We talked again this morning. She is still defending her actions. She agreed not to text him again and to show me any texts he sends to her.
> 
> Nothing new on the VAR.
> 
> I'm left to assume she doesn't mean any harm by her actions. She just doesn't understand the pain her betrayal caused and this guy's tie in to that.
> 
> She asked me point blank what my problem with him is. I told her that she was setting up a secret meeting with him for lunch, that's what my problem was. She said it wasn't secret, she just didn't tell me about it. WTF?
> 
> I think the underlying difference that is causing the tension is that she thinks it's okay for a guy and a girl to go have a meal together to 'catch up' on things. In my opinion, that is a date and married people shouldn't be dating. She thinks I'm overreacting. She thinks I misunderstood her reasons for wanting to meet up with Joe.
> 
> She knows I was hurt by the cybersex discovery, but she thought that she had 'proven' the Joe thing was 'innocent'. I told her nothing was 'proven'. We had put working through these things on hold, and they were on hold too long. Now that we are trying to work on them again she just want's to get past it and not keep repeating the same ground over and over.
> 
> I'd like to implement the 180, but I'm a little unsure of what change I'd be looking for out of her.


In your position, the first thing I did was I stopped arguing with my W. Got that little gem from _Hold On To Your NUTS_.

That didn't mean that I caved into my W, it meant that once I stated my position on something, I didn't let her drag me into some nitty-gritty, down in the weeds debate on things like "what is 'innocent' vs what isn't", "what is 'toxic' vs what isn't", etc.

If you let yourself get sucked into those kinds of debates with your W, she's going to win every time. Even if you logically prove her wrong, doing so will cause so much resentment in her that she'll feel justified in her feelings anyway. At least, that's how my W was.

Once I stopped allowing myself to get sucked into those arguments, and instead clearly stated my feelings and told her flat out that I wasn't going to argue, things got smoother. She didn't like it at first bc she could see that I was taking away one of her biggest advantages, but eventually she figured out that if I feel strongly about something, that's it.

That's the tack I'd take the next time she ropes you into this "Well, Joe is just innocent!" thing. Simply state your position on it that you're uncomfortable with it, that you've already made your case and she's the one in the compromising position, and that you will argue it with her further. And then don't.

I also started listening to my gut instincts and acting on them. If something didn't feel right, I called her out on it. The gut instinct, IMO, is just your subconscious mind figuring something out before our conscious mind does. I'd come to dismiss my gut instinct for so long that I was really amazed after DDay and I figured out just how right I was.

Listen to your gut instinct. I get the impression from your posts that you still feel in the dark about things, and that you still feel as if your W is exhibiting questionable behavior. Chase that down tooth and nail. Don't give up. Remember, she screwed up. It is her responsibility to win you and the marriage back, but it sounds like she's still trying to cake eat just a tad.


----------



## Acoa

I'd much rather reconcile. But we have a couple of value differences. Before Dday I could handle those. Now, I don't think I can. 

She want's to be a social butterfly. She says I'm welcome to come along. However between work, kids and the house I only want to go out once or twice a week. I can't join her for lunch unless she is willing to come out near where I work, which limits who else would be willing to join her. She want's to go hang at the bar after theater performances. They work the show from about 6pm till 11pm, then go out for a drink or two and something to eat. To meet with them I'd have to leave the house at 10:30pm, I'm typically asleep by then and up at 6am. 

I wouldn't say divorce is my goal. But I'm not seeing a middle ground that would reasonably make us both happy. She has been taking my lead the past couple of months, but she is starting to push boundaries again. 

She even said yesterday that she feels like she is in captivity. She is working a show right now, gone 4 nights a week and feels like she is in captivity? Really? Spending 3 nights per week with me is equal to jail time? And we go out at least 1 of those 3 nights. Twice per month I go with her to cast parties with Theater folks. 

I'd like to think I'm doing my part to stretch myself to be more social. But comments like that lead me to believe my wife is a bottomless pit that can never be filled.


----------



## CEL

You need to sit down and have realistic conversation about what you want you life to be in the long term. She sounds like she wants to have a more single oriented life where you are going out a lot you seem like you want a more married life. Also MC would probably be a good decision at this point as you need a mediator between you to see both sides.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

cel said:


> you need to sit down and have realistic conversation about what you want you life to be in the long term. She sounds like she wants to have a more single oriented life where you are going out a lot you seem like you want a more married life. Also mc would probably be a good decision at this point as you need a mediator between you to see both sides.


this


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Acoa said:


> I'd much rather reconcile. But we have a couple of value differences. Before Dday I could handle those. Now, I don't think I can.
> 
> She want's to be a social butterfly. She says I'm welcome to come along. However between work, kids and the house I only want to go out once or twice a week. I can't join her for lunch unless she is willing to come out near where I work, which limits who else would be willing to join her. She want's to go hang at the bar after theater performances. They work the show from about 6pm till 11pm, then go out for a drink or two and something to eat. To meet with them I'd have to leave the house at 10:30pm, I'm typically asleep by then and up at 6am.
> 
> I wouldn't say divorce is my goal. But I'm not seeing a middle ground that would reasonably make us both happy. She has been taking my lead the past couple of months, but she is starting to push boundaries again.
> 
> She even said yesterday that she feels like she is in captivity. She is working a show right now, gone 4 nights a week and feels like she is in captivity? Really? Spending 3 nights per week with me is equal to jail time? And we go out at least 1 of those 3 nights. Twice per month I go with her to cast parties with Theater folks.
> 
> I'd like to think I'm doing my part to stretch myself to be more social. But comments like that lead me to believe my wife is a bottomless pit that can never be filled.


You do enough, give her a lot of freedom to go out untill late, 4 nights a week.

And go out one other night with her.

So, being not satisfied with this from her side, is a red flag. 

Feeling in captivity?! That is a well known frase here.


----------



## Acoa

See_Listen_Love said:


> You do enough, give her a lot of freedom to go out untill late, 4 nights a week.
> 
> And go out one other night with her.
> 
> So, being not satisfied with this from her side, is a red flag.
> 
> Feeling in captivity?! That is a well known frase here.


Let me clarify, she doesn't go out with them after the production anymore. She stopped doing that after Dday from the cyber stuff. But she 'want's' to start going out again. It was in the frame of this discussion the 'captivity' comment came out. 

She said that during the production run there is no time to be social. That part of the Theater is 'all business'. She is missing going out after to socialize. 

I just don't think going out and hanging at the bar after 11pm without me is a good idea. And me going out there to meet up with them that late is a little awkward.


----------



## Shaggy

I agree that her going out without you to a bar is not a good idea, and it becomes a worse idea every hour after 9pm and with every drink.

it does not sound like marriage or you are her top priority.

Being social, getting attention from men, and hanging with people acting single are her priorities.

Married folks don't head out on their a few nights a week to hang drink and eat. Well, not ones that stay married that is.

Theatre folks have an incredibly bad history of lots of cheating going on in such groups. I think part of it is that theatre attracts a high amount of attention seeking flakes that have histories of dodgy fidelity.


----------



## tom67

Shaggy said:


> I agree that her going out without you to a bar is not a good idea, and it becomes a worse idea every hour after 9pm and with every drink.
> 
> it does not sound like marriage or you are her top priority.
> 
> Being social, getting attention from men, and hanging with people acting single are her priorities.
> 
> Married folks don't head out on their a few nights a week to hang drink and eat. Well, not ones that stay married that is.
> 
> Theatre folks have an incredibly bad history of lots of cheating going on in such groups. I think part of it is that theatre attracts a high amount of attention seeking flakes that have histories of dodgy fidelity.


A perfect example of this would be Mrs. Mathias.:iagree:


----------



## Davelli0331

Acoa said:


> Let me clarify, she doesn't go out with them after the production anymore. She stopped doing that after Dday from the cyber stuff. But she 'want's' to start going out again. It was in the frame of this discussion the 'captivity' comment came out.
> 
> She said that during the production run there is no time to be social. That part of the Theater is 'all business'. She is missing going out after to socialize.
> 
> I just don't think going out and hanging at the bar after 11pm without me is a good idea. And me going out there to meet up with them that late is a little awkward.


If it were me, I'd want to find out truly why she wants these nights out.

If she wants them for an ulterior motive, namely there's a specific person she wants to connect with (even if innocently in her mind right now), then that's bad, bc that could turn into an EA/PA/toxic friend.

If she truly has no motive other than that she just wants to start going out more, that's also bad, because that represents a divergence in each of your expectations about the marriage.

The primary difference in the two is how I would approach each one. The first one is probably fixable in that she would eventually get over whoever this person is.

The second is not so easily addressed, because it represents two fundamental and mutually exclusive POVs on how you want to conduct your marriage.

I'm not gonna jump into the whole "if your W goes out she'll automatically cheat" thing, bc I don't believe it and I don't want this thread to derail. I definitely agree with Shaggy that a married person of either gender should not be out by themselves bar hopping until all hours of the night multiple nights a week. Even if they're not cheating, they're at least checking out of the marriage on some level.


----------



## Acoa

Davelli0331 said:


> If she truly has no motive other than that she just wants to start going out more, that's also bad, because that represents a divergence in each of your expectations about the marriage.


 / \
|
This

I have enough surveillance in place (overt and covert) that I'm comfortable she doesn't have her eyes out for anyone specific. I'm also comfortable (from conversations overheard on the Var) that she is satisfied sexually and not actively looking to have an affair. 

But she doesn't agree that hanging out at the bar with friends is bad for the marriage. I like your phrase "divergence in our expectations about the marriage.". I think it sums this specific problem up well. And I agree, it's not easily addressed. We just restarted MC, but due to schedules don't have another meeting for a couple of weeks. I'll be sure to make this a main topic.

She is currently complying with my request that she doesn't hang out at the bar late without me. Sometimes that means I go out with them, but mostly that means she comes home. She has been making a great show of coming home all 'amped up' and not being able to sleep. She will read or watch TV until 1 or 2 in the morning. She hasn't said it yet, but I'm sensing this will be fodder for defending her POV that she shouldn't need to come home right after the production. I can hear the argument now, 'well, you are going to just fall asleep anyway, why shouldn't I stay out a little. You know I'm not tired.'


----------



## Davelli0331

Acoa said:


> / \
> |
> This
> 
> I have enough surveillance in place (overt and covert) that I'm comfortable she doesn't have her eyes out for anyone specific. I'm also comfortable (from conversations overheard on the Var) that she is satisfied sexually and not actively looking to have an affair.
> 
> But she doesn't agree that hanging out at the bar with friends is bad for the marriage. I like your phrase "divergence in our expectations about the marriage.". I think it sums this specific problem up well. And I agree, it's not easily addressed. We just restarted MC, but due to schedules don't have another meeting for a couple of weeks. I'll be sure to make this a main topic.
> 
> She is currently complying with my request that she doesn't hang out at the bar late without me. Sometimes that means I go out with them, but mostly that means she comes home. She has been making a great show of coming home all 'amped up' and not being able to sleep. She will read or watch TV until 1 or 2 in the morning. She hasn't said it yet, but I'm sensing this will be fodder for defending her POV that she shouldn't need to come home right after the production. I can hear the argument now, 'well, you are going to just fall asleep anyway, why shouldn't I stay out a little. You know I'm not tired.'


MC def sounds like the right place to discuss this sort thing, because from how it sounds, this is a basic marriage foundation issue with you guys.

Heed my advice from earlier: Do not let her suck you into a technical debate about why she should be able to go out. She already has the reasons lined up in her mind, along with a rebuttal for just about any roadblock you could put up.

Just simply state your feelings, "I don't think a married woman should be out that much" and leave it at that. When she tries to goad you into giving her specific reasons, don't. She only wants to hear the specific reasons so she can refute them.


----------



## Shaggy

Ok, you've got an impasse , in lifestyle goals and priorities.

And due to her affair you've lost trust in her. That's something she doesn't seem to understand. It's not just that you were emotionally hurt by her choice to betray the marriage, you fundamentally lost trust in her faithfulness to you.

It does come down to priorities and choices.

If you know that you are her first and greatest priority then you will trust that her choice will always to be loyal.

But when she puts others above you, then the alerts go off.

A big part of good MC is about figuring out and learning actions to demonstrate and reinforce your priorities and showing your SO their value you to you.

Essential, learning for both of you how to be a great partner in the marriage instead of two people who are married.


----------



## bfree

Ask her if you are two individuals who happen to be married or are you two married individuals?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Shaggy said:


> Ok, you've got an impasse , in lifestyle goals and priorities.
> 
> And due to her affair you've lost trust in her. That's something she doesn't seem to understand. It's not just that you were emotionally hurt by her choice to betray the marriage, you fundamentally lost trust in her faithfulness to you.
> 
> It does come down to priorities and choices.
> 
> If you know that you are her first and greatest priority then you will trust that her choice will always to be loyal.
> 
> But when she puts others above you, then the alerts go off.
> 
> A big part of good MC is about figuring out and learning actions to demonstrate and reinforce your priorities and showing your SO their value you to you.
> 
> Essential, learning for both of you how to be a great partner in the marriage instead of two people who are married.


This sums it up, if she wants to work on the relation and sees this as the way to go, as how it should be, then OK.

But if not...she may have checked out of the relation, and is actually looking for an exit affair.

The lifestyle difference seems trouble, I would not now how to reconcile that. What I would do if in love with someone, is almost everything to be with them. It looks here as if you are standing in her way to happiness.


----------



## Acoa

Thank you all for your replies. It's helpful in solidifying my resolve. 

She says she is committed to working on things, and she does what I ask (after much whining and complaining). So, I think she means it. As long as that stays on target I'll see where MC takes us. She has agreed not to contact Joe again unless we have explicitly discussed it and I agree it's okay (not likely in the near future). If I do agree, it will be for the 4 of us (including his wife) to meet. I'll put her on my speed dial. 

Shaggy, I think you are correct in that she doesn't understand the hurt she caused. 

See_LL, I often wonder If I'm standing in her way. I've actually asked her that point blank a couple of times in the past year. She 'assures' me that she want's to be with me and only me. As those of you who have been betrayed probably understand, that sounds very, very empty to me.

Disclaimer - I've liked many of your comments. Please note, that it is because I agree with, understand and appreciate what you are saying. Not because I actually 'like' it. But lets face it, none of us 'likes' having to visit this forum.


----------



## Acoa

Second session of MC last night. Our therapist always asks how things are going 1st. Wife said, "pretty good." Therapist could tell by my look of shock I disagreed. 

I went through the events of the prior week. And shared that I think the core problem is we have different values when it comes to interactions with the opposite sex. After probing both of us, she confirmed my insight. Which was both rewarding and worrisome.

She called it a 'forever problem'. She says most marriages have them. It existed in our marriage before the affair. But the affair broke the balance that existed. I kept my jealousy in check and gave her more freedom. I was more understanding that she was a naturally warm and affectionate person, and was more tolerant of our differences. When the kids were young, she really couldn't do much with those freedoms that pushed me further than I was comfortable. Now that the kids are older, she is able to push the old norms further, and I'm not as 'at peace' with it as I was prior to the affair. 

We ran out of time at that point. But it's clear the difficult part is going to be getting to a place where we are both comfortable. She feels my values and boundaries are stifling and cold. I think hers are naïve and vulnerable. She said she made a mistake and now she feels she needs to pay for it for the rest of her life by changing who she is. I told her I think the same thing, other than I wouldn't call it 'pay for it'. I call it preventing it from happening again.

I'm glad she is being honest about her feelings going through the process. I hope we come discover some compromise that works for both of us. I can't go back to the old way. I can't live with the anxiety of it and my only hope for not having that is to emotionally detach from my wife. I never envisioned a marriage where I stopped caring about my wife. The choices don't seem very appealing:

1.) Leave her
2.) Live with the anxiety and 'hope' she never cheats again.
3.) Emotionally detach and live as roommates. 

Obviously I leave her if she cheats again. Does anyone see a fourth choice? Something in my control. I know there is an option where she conforms to my norms of not being so affectionate and friendly with other men. But she doesn't seem willing to do that, or if she does, she will be unhappy and feel controlled. Besides, I can't make her choose that. I can only control myself. So, I'm looking for another choice that's in my power.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

There is a fourth choice, and maybe many more.

See, this is not about the choices you see now. I read your first post and some others again. You yourself need healing of many mental problems. These problems are the cause for the problems in your relation. And would be the cause for problems in other relations you might have if you leave her.

If you change, everything will change. 

Further I see love as an action, if you both want to love, it means you take both actions to love eachother.

Now you are prone to feelings, and not the right ones. And she tries her best, but there are borders to what she is prepared to cope with in her life. That sounds to me like a sound approach. 

However unpopular to say to the BS, I really think you have to become another person, in your own interest.


----------



## Chaparral

I saw my first Gno around 1980. A man I worked with told me him and his wife started going out once a week while the other babysat their two kids. I was floored. First off I figured he just wanted a little on the side. Secondly, I figured his wife would be getting hit on. I tried to talk him out of it and told him he was crazy. He laughed and laughed at how ridiculous I was being. 2 or 3 months later he came walking in to work with a beaten look. I new exactly what happened before he spoke. His wife left him, took the kids and moved in with a man she met in a club.

So in the last 33 years I have known 1 and only 1 couple that have survived going out drinking without their spouse. The 1 that survived used to go out with 4 girlfriends. All the girlfriends divorced their husbands. The karma bus hit them all.

Your wife proved she could not be trusted on a computer. You sure as hell can't trust her by herself with a drink in her hand. If that's what she wants, I would set her free. Just be honest with her, tell her that and don't expect her to read your mind.


----------



## bfree

Acoa,

They are all in your control and the fact that you don't see it that way is your biggest problem.

My first thought is that she really doesn't have any idea of the damage she has caused. And I don't think she will until you take action and show her. She seemed to respond only when you told her that you'd had enough and were going to see a lawyer. Many fWS on TAM have said that they only seemed to recognize the depth of their betrayal after reading and connecting with other posters on TAM. Until then they just continued to dig in their heels and resented being "controlled." I don't think your wife is unable to comprehend the damage she has inflicted on you and the marriage. I just think thus far she is unwilling and it may take actually filing for divorce before she truly understands what she had done. As it stands now what you are doing is creating an atmosphere that just perpetuates resentment from both of you - her for the affair and single lifestyle she wishes to lead and you for trying to control her. You are afraid of being perceived as controlling but what you need to understand is that there is no such thing. You can't control her any more than you can control me. Your boundaries are your own and if she choices to cross them than that is her choice just as filling for divorce is yours. She must come to understand that her behavior is not conducive to a marital lifestyle and if she wants to continue to pursue that social strategy that is her decision but she should do so as a single woman. She changed the status quo when she had an affair. She proved she cannot follow that social construct as a married woman. She has demonstrated weak boundaries. She changed a forever problem into a dealbreaker when she cheated. Will she pay for it for the rest of her life? No, only for the rest of the marriage. That was her choice when she chose to have an affair. Now you need to decide if you want to continue to engage in this power struggle until one or both of you has had enough and files.


----------



## Chaparral

Did you print off the wayward spouse instructions and study it with her?

Here is a link, many waywards have been seriously affected by it.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...sided-need-perspective-please.html#post534068

post number 11


----------



## Chaparral

Also, it has been helpful for quite a few couples to have the wayward spouse come here. Assuming you know she is not having an affair now.


----------



## Acoa

chapparal said:


> Did you print off the wayward spouse instructions and study it with her?
> 
> Here is a link, many waywards have been seriously affected by it.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...sided-need-perspective-please.html#post534068
> 
> post number 11


Yes, she has read it. We have never sat down and discussed our thoughts on it in a point by point manner. That sounds like something that is worth doing.



chapparal said:


> Also, it has been helpful for quite a few couples to have the wayward spouse come here. Assuming you know she is not having an affair now.


She isn't currently having an affair. She knows about this board, maybe as part of the point above I'll suggest she post her story.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Acoa said:


> She isn't currently having an affair. She knows about this board, maybe as part of the point above I'll suggest she post her story.


I think if she does she will be surprised at the responses she receives. I don't think she quite grasps the issues involved and the seriousness of her behavior.


----------



## Acoa

bfree said:


> I don't think she quite grasps the issues involved and the seriousness of her behavior.


I believe she is starting to. She started reading a book called "Why good people do bad things." I think it's helping her to admit that what she did was very bad, but it doesn't in and of itself make her a bad person. It's a start anyway. She still has trouble discussing it with me. I think that makes it too real and more painful for her. Maybe getting her to this board will bring her around to the point where she starts to feel and experience that pain. I believe She needs to get to that point for us to heal. 

It was our 22nd wedding anniversary yesterday. She told me she loved me and hoped to have another 22 or more years ahead of us and try to make them better than the past 22. She admitted that she suspected I was considering leaving her, and that she hoped that she would be able to make the changes that would prevent that from happening. I confirmed to her that leaving her was very much on my mind. But it was in her power to keep that from happening. That I need her to be open, honest, faithful and spend time with me. 

She says she is willing to do these things. She agreed to take June and July off from the theater. She will be busy there again in August and September, then should be off again until December and January, then done again until at least May of 2014. As there are no back to back productions in that schedule, it is much less of a time sink that the past couple years. If she sticks with that, I'll keep working with her. If she blows up, tells me I'm being controlling or starts working on the productions she said she was taking off, then we are done. 

I now have actions I can watch to see if she is sincere in making compromises.


----------



## Acoa

bfree said:


> Acoa,
> 
> They are all in your control and the fact that you don't see it that way is your biggest problem.


I know those 3 are in my power. I was looking for others that might be too. Something maybe I'm not seeing as none of those 3 are particularly appealing.

Ideally I state my needs, she agrees with them (or not and we negotiate to something that actually works for both of us) and follows through on that commitment. However that's under her control. I've done part 1, stating my needs. I can refine it, to be less controlling in nature. I see that and am thinking carefully on how to express myself better here.


----------



## Acoa

Some positives from the past week:
- She has not gone to the theater for 2 weeks now! Huzzah
- She reviewed the wayward spouse instructions with me. 
- She apologized for not consulting with me on production 1.
- She was offered a job for production 3 and declined it.

I feel like she is finally coming to grips with the fact that what she did was a betrayal. That her spending the past year buried in the theater did nothing to resolve anything and worse, transferred a lot of my anger and feelings of betrayal onto the theater. 

I've mentioned the boards to her, and suggested she read this thread. I'm not sure if she will or not.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Acoa said:


> Some positives from the past week:
> - She has not gone to the theater for 2 weeks now! Huzzah
> - She reviewed the wayward spouse instructions with me.
> - She apologized for not consulting with me on production 1.
> - She was offered a job for production 3 and declined it.
> 
> I feel like she is finally coming to grips with the fact that what she did was a betrayal. That her spending the past year buried in the theater did nothing to resolve anything and worse, transferred a lot of my anger and feelings of betrayal onto the theater.
> 
> I've mentioned the boards to her, and suggested she read this thread. I'm not sure if she will or not.


If you're going to have her read I would suggest she post. But not in the open CWI section. Have her post in the reconciliation thread in CWI. It's a lot less judgemental but the posters there will still be honest and hold her accountable. Nobody will give her a hard time I promise you. And she may learn to see your pain through the words and thoughts of other BS there. Everyone there supports one another regardless of the circumstances.


----------



## Acoa

Been a while, so I thought I'd post an update. 

I brought up having her come read these boards and post. I gave her my username and the URL and said she could look up my threads, and if she felt like posting to do it in the reconcilliation thread in CWI. I stopped short of pressuring her to do it. Interestingly, I don't think she has read the info. I knew she would be resistant to post. She knows she screwed up and doesn't really want to dwell on it. I thought she would be curious about what I was posting, but perhaps thats just me projecting my own need for information. 

Spending more time together has been helpful the last couple months. She has done a good job backing off from the theater. I work in marketing and have agreed to work with her on some of the marketing efforts at the theater. It's a couple day per month commitment, something we can do together and helps me get to know some of the folks there. 

I started taking and anti depressant about 6 weeks ago. It's also helped with my anxiety issues, which is helping me stay calm and deal with my triggers more rationally. 

We had a busy Friday and Saturday, so we planned to chill at home Sunday so I could putz in the garden. She isn't interested in manual labor, but I said it would be nice if she could just be outside with me. She likes to read, I suggested she could read a book. That idea reasonated with her and all day Friday and Saturday she mentioned how she was looking forward to Sunday. After church I got changed and started in on the garden. She mentioned that today was the last day of a play 2 of her theater friends were in and if I would be upset if she went to see the play. I have to admit, just her asking really triggered me. But I'm pround of myself, I stayed calm and just said I was looking forward to spending time together today. I thought she was too, but that I wasn't her keeper and she should do whatever she though was best. I could tell that was not an answer she was expecting. The wheel were spinning for a while on that and I just grabbed my shovel and headed back to the garden. A few minutes later she showed up with a lawn chair and book in hand. 

The next 8 weeks will be interesting. She works as a teacher, but for a state funded program. The programs funds were hit by the sequester so she is limited in how many hours she can teach. She already hit her max for the summer term, so won't be working until the fall. It's only been a week and I can see how the extra time at home is affecting her. She started complaining about a couple of her friends went away for a weekend in door county and they didn't invite her so she is feeling left out. That's a tricky area for me to converse with her about. I know it's related to her insecurity. That insecurity is also what led to her online affairs. I like that she is being open and sharing, but it also triggers me. Definetly something to discuss in MC. 

I've suggested she job hunt and make a list of projects around the house she wants to do. I can help her plan and do some of the heavy lifting in the evenings so she can do whatever finishing work / clean up needs to be done during the day. She has made her list, most of it's cleaning and things she can accomplish with little help from me. Hopefully she doesn't avoid working on her list. When she goes into avoidance mode she gets engrossed in Facebook. That didn't turn out so well last time she was bored. No point in worrying too much about the what if, but I'm keeping my eyes open.


----------



## bfree

Glad to see you are taking something to give you a little balance...at least in the short term. I think you handled that situation perfectly and I don't want to necessarily make too much of it but her reaction was a very positive step and not something she would have done just a few short months ago. I hate to say it but she needs to take up a hobby other than theater. Maybe photography or drawing or something. Facebook is bad news, especially for someone who tends to get lost looking for approval. You've made more progress than I ever thought was possible. Keep monitoring but you're doing real good.


----------



## Acoa

Just checking in to say things are still going fine. I'm off the SSRI. I'm still working my 12 step program, probably will the rest of my life. I'm able to spot my anxiety better and can deal with triggers in a more rational manner than just trying to avoid life.

With the garden closed due the 'polar vortex', I'm developing some winter hobbies. In addition to fermenting foods such as saurkraut I've started a batch of Mead (wine made from honey). I'm looking forward to testing the 1st batch in a few weeks. In addition to this I'm 'planning' what to plant and where to put it in the spring. 

The wife has stayed true to her word not to work back to back productions. I've gotten involved in the marketing committee at the theater. So, i'm getting to know some of the other members better which I think helps me feel a little more secure in that I know who she is hanging out with. The often meet nights that she has rehersals, so we go to the theater and come home together, even if we are doing different things when we are there.

She has cut out the flirting and hugging crap and as i've not seen or heard anything 'bothersome' in a while I've all but stopped survelliance. I'll check once or twice a year moving foward just to be 'sure', but I don't anticipate finding anything, which is a big change in my attitude from a few months ago.


----------



## bfree

Acoa, I'm so glad to hear things are still on the upswing. I think you holding your ground on your boundaries had a huge effect on her. How is the intimacy between you? I don't mean sex necessarily but do you feel close to her?


----------



## bfree

Btw, I love mead. One of my favorite drinks. I've often thought off making my own because I like dry mead and all the store bought varieties are too sweet for me. Let me know how it turns out.


----------



## Acoa

bfree said:


> Acoa, I'm so glad to hear things are still on the upswing. I think you holding your ground on your boundaries had a huge effect on her. How is the intimacy between you? I don't mean sex necessarily but do you feel close to her?


We went through a patch prior to Dday where we were not connecting much. That's gotten much better, we try to do something together every week that's just "us" time. No kids, no friends, just us. Could be playing a board game, dinner or a movie, but we have been decent about keeping to it. That has helped a bunch.

I still sometimes feel like she says things out of habit and maybe isn't a sincere as she thinks she is. Part of that is me, I've never had tremendous self image. Part of it she earned with her betrayl. It's difficult to untangle the issues.

For example, when she says things like "I'm so glad I married my best friend" I have a hard time accepting it. The disconnect during the affair period didn't help, she would say things like "I'm the most important thing in her life" but then be gone every night. So, yeah, she earned that distrust as much as I come by it easily. 

I guess you could say we are reconnecting, but there is still some distance to go. Sometimes I still feel lonely even when I'm holding her in my arms. R takes a long, long, long time.


----------



## Acoa

bfree said:


> Btw, I love mead. One of my favorite drinks. I've often thought off making my own because I like dry mead and all the store bought varieties are too sweet for me. Let me know how it turns out.


I like it dry too, so I went on the low side with the honey and used a strain of yeast that can tolerate a high alcohol content. That will ensure they can metabolize all of the sugar before the alcohol kills them. 

3 more weeks and I'll do the 1st racking (to remove the dead yeast). I can 'test' it at the point but it will still be pretty yeasty tasting. I'll rack again and clarify in 7 weeks then comes of the fun part of aging it and 'testing' (aka tasting) it frequently to see how it develops over time.

I only did a gallon for my 1st attempt. If it tastes good at the 1st racking I'll start another gallon. Otherwise I'll wait a until later in the year to see how it ages before I decide on how to change the recipe. 

Hopefully the 1st gallon tastes good by May. It would be fun to celebrate my birthday with a homemade mead.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Acoa said:


> We went through a patch prior to Dday where we were not connecting much. That's gotten much better, we try to do something together every week that's just "us" time. No kids, no friends, just us. Could be playing a board game, dinner or a movie, but we have been decent about keeping to it. That has helped a bunch.
> 
> I still sometimes feel like she says things out of habit and maybe isn't a sincere as she thinks she is. Part of that is me, I've never had tremendous self image. Part of it she earned with her betrayl. It's difficult to untangle the issues.
> 
> For example, when she says things like "I'm so glad I married my best friend" I have a hard time accepting it. The disconnect during the affair period didn't help, she would say things like "I'm the most important thing in her life" but then be gone every night. So, yeah, she earned that distrust as much as I come by it easily.
> 
> I guess you could say we are reconnecting, but there is still some distance to go. Sometimes I still feel lonely even when I'm holding her in my arms. R takes a long, long, long time.


I understand there will be an underlying mistrust for a while. It just goes with the territory unfortunately. But let me ask this. Are there periods when you feel very close to her? I still sometimes hold my wife and get butterflies in my stomach and my knees go a little weak. Are you still getting that type of feeling when you're with her? Are the good periods getting longer and the lonely period getting shorter? That's how you know you're making progress together. It never just happens instantaneously. It's always slow but steady with maybe a minor setback or two along the way. Then one day you just realize that you are over the hump.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Acoa said:


> I like it dry too, so I went on the low side with the honey and used a strain of yeast that can tolerate a high alcohol content. That will ensure they can metabolize all of the sugar before the alcohol kills them.
> 
> 3 more weeks and I'll do the 1st racking (to remove the dead yeast). I can 'test' it at the point but it will still be pretty yeasty tasting. I'll rack again and clarify in 7 weeks then comes of the fun part of aging it and 'testing' (aka tasting) it frequently to see how it develops over time.
> 
> I only did a gallon for my 1st attempt. If it tastes good at the 1st racking I'll start another gallon. Otherwise I'll wait a until later in the year to see how it ages before I decide on how to change the recipe.
> 
> Hopefully the 1st gallon tastes good by May. It would be fun to celebrate my birthday with a homemade mead.


Sounds just like I was planning on doing it. Keep me updated. I'm going to give it a go one of these days.


----------



## Acoa

bfree said:


> Are there periods when you feel very close to her? I still sometimes hold my wife and get butterflies in my stomach and my knees go a little weak. Are you still getting that type of feeling when you're with her? Are the good periods getting longer and the lonely period getting shorter?


Yes, definetly. It's just discouraging when a trigger pops up and that feeling just blows away. Triggers used to be everywhere, now they are just around corners and in hiding, ready to pop out of what seems to be nowhere. Sometimes the triggers are quite stupid.

Don't get me started on the song "Blurred Lines". Ugh. We were driving along and the song came on, my wife started bouncing to the beat and reached over to turn it up. I thought I was going to hurl my stomach twisted so tight. 

She was genuinely surprised, so I asked her to listen to the words. She pulled it up on Soundhound and was like, "oh." Needless to say, the station gets changed when that one comes on.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Acoa said:


> Yes, definetly. It's just discouraging when a trigger pops up and that feeling just blows away. Triggers used to be everywhere, now they are just around corners and in hiding, ready to pop out of what seems to be nowhere. Sometimes the triggers are quite stupid.
> 
> Don't get me started on the song "Blurred Lines". Ugh. We were driving along and the song came on, my wife started bouncing to the beat and reached over to turn it up. I thought I was going to hurl my stomach twisted so tight.
> 
> She was genuinely surprised, so I asked her to listen to the words. She pulled it up on Soundhound and was like, "oh." Needless to say, the station gets changed when that one comes on.


It's hard. Most WS's don't understand or know how to handle those situations. They weren't betrayed. In their minds it's all over and done with. They can't grasp the concept that their actions are having such a profound effect long after the event. It also brings back the guilt and shame that they felt, the exact feelings they are trying to get past. So long as she continues to prove she is trustworthy and tries to empathize when you do trigger. You'll find those triggers eventually lose their frequency and their power over time. Just make sure to keep solid boundaries and continue to communicate. Remember that love isn't enough to sustain a relationship. You also have to have respect and trust.


----------



## LongWalk

Acoa,

You've kept a good thread. I am sure it will help others.

It's not uncommon for people with passions and addictions to put a lot of emotion and energy outside of their marriages. Sports and working out are probably more common that music and theater.

Your wife probably likes what you have done, i.e., set down boundaries. The tension in your relationship has given her a role in her own personal play. Have you ever asked her if she related the problems in your marriage to any of the productions she's been involved in?

There are certainly many plays that cover the subject of infidelity, gender and marital strife. Hamlet, A Doll's House, Miss Julie, are just the beginning. You ought to ask her to do some critical reading.

The paradox in your relationship is that your wife incorrectly feels that she can put your relationship in second place and it will prosper of its own magic. This is clearly not true. She would not have had the affairs if it were so.

It is hard to say whether she had a PA. If she did, this is a rather disturbing secret that may actually be a trump card for you. For what ever details that you did not uncover about her infidelity are now suspicsions that live on. In MC has she ever said that it feels uncomfortable to know that she can never clear her name with you entirely? That uncertainty may be the reason you can hold her in your arms and feel emptiness – the saddest moment of your entire thread.

When it comes to trickle truth I wonder is an EA or PA spouse has ever impulsively blurted out some false admission out of anger: "Yes, and I fvked him/her, too!" 

Suddenly this would become smoke that would never dissipate.

Your wife gets a lot out of the theater in terms of emotional reward. Has she ever said that you need that same charge?

Ironically, you seem to have a critical mind in the artistic sense. You would have no problem watching these productions and then making observations over drinks afterwards.

Why don't you write a modern drama about marriage in America in the age of Facebook. It could be a play a inspired by your own experience. There is certain a goldmine of lines here in pages of TAM.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Acoa,
> 
> You've kept a good thread. I am sure it will help others.


Thanks, it also helps me to go back over it, sort of like a journal of how I was feeling about things at different times during our recovery.



LongWalk said:


> It's not uncommon for people with passions and addictions to put a lot of emotion and energy outside of their marriages. Sports and working out are probably more common that music and theater.
> 
> Your wife probably likes what you have done, i.e., set down boundaries. The tension in your relationship has given her a role in her own personal play. Have you ever asked her if she related the problems in your marriage to any of the productions she's been involved in?


There haven't been many parrallels in her current productions. But we also watch a lot of movies, and there have been a few that got us talking. She still gets very guarded when I'm triggerd and slips into 'what do I say to make him feel better' mode. Which is not good. 



LongWalk said:


> There are certainly many plays that cover the subject of infidelity, gender and marital strife. Hamlet, A Doll's House, Miss Julie, are just the beginning. You ought to ask her to do some critical reading.
> 
> The paradox in your relationship is that your wife incorrectly feels that she can put your relationship in second place and it will prosper of its own magic. This is clearly not true. She would not have had the affairs if it were so.


She feels she put the marriage and the kids ahead of herself for the first 20 years of the marriage and she feels someone justified in looking out for number one and building friendships that she feels she has missed out on by all the moving around we have done. 

She aknowledges that the online affairs and being flirty and looking for sexual attention was a mistake. She has stopped that. But feels that the theater is what she is good at and loves to do and doesn't want to give it up all together. She has backed way off from the past 2 years, but she doesn't want to give it up all together. She knows if I catch her even flirting with anyone at the theater she would either have to give it up or divorce. If I catch her doing more than that choice would be divorce or divorce. 



LongWalk said:


> It is hard to say whether she had a PA. If she did, this is a rather disturbing secret that may actually be a trump card for you. For what ever details that you did not uncover about her infidelity are now suspicsions that live on. In MC has she ever said that it feels uncomfortable to know that she can never clear her name with you entirely? That uncertainty may be the reason you can hold her in your arms and feel emptiness – the saddest moment of your entire thread.
> 
> When it comes to trickle truth I wonder is an EA or PA spouse has ever impulsively blurted out some false admission out of anger: "Yes, and I fvked him/her, too!"
> 
> Suddenly this would become smoke that would never dissipate.


Yeah, still a major hurdle. She has stuck to her guns on this only being online and never physical. In MC she mentioned that she was tempted to make up something physical to throw at me to see if it would shut me up, but she knew that was just her own angry reaction to my constant interrogations and bit her tongue.

She is very conflict avoidant, and when I'm upset rather than dealing with the problem head on she tries to minimize. Unfortunetly the exact wrong thing to do in this situation. I'm trying to trust her, yet when I want to discuss a trigger she tries to minimize it. Horrible for rebuilding trust. 



LongWalk said:


> Your wife gets a lot out of the theater in terms of emotional reward. Has she ever said that you need that same charge?


Yes, and I'm working on some of those things. Quiting online gaming was difficult for me. I was using it as a crutch not to deal with other problems in my life. I've done a good job cleaning up that mess. I've gotten more involved in my church, service work for my ACA program, gardening, fishing and food preservation (including taking some classes). 

Unfortunetly my interests are very different from hers, and as I get more involved in things that interest me, it just creates more time apart. It's very difficult finding things to do together that we both enjoy.



LongWalk said:


> Ironically, you seem to have a critical mind in the artistic sense. You would have no problem watching these productions and then making observations over drinks afterwards.
> 
> Why don't you write a modern drama about marriage in America in the age of Facebook. It could be a play a inspired by your own experience. There is certain a goldmine of lines here in pages of TAM.


That's an interesting idea. Not sure anyone would want to see it, but might be cathartic to write it.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Acoa said:


> Unfortunetly my interests are very different from hers, and as I get more involved in things that interest me, it just creates more time apart. It's very difficult finding things to do together that we both enjoy.


Difficult maybe but they need to be found and done.

Maybe start with talking about eachothers experiences over a homemade meal, taking your time. Candles, wine, music. 

Creating some interest in art, theatre etc. must be not too difficult. I once read a book 'Opera for dummies', maybe there are books/youtube video's like that on theatre. See movies made from original theater plays. Read about the differenes. Learn about the ideas and expressions of them on stage.

Watching together Woody Allen movies can help. Visiting exhibitions. Become member of a film house, of a virtual version of that.

If you know more about a subject, it becomes more interesting and you want to talk about it with others.

It is something you can do.


----------



## LongWalk

SLS,

I dig your posts, but beg to differ when it comes to Woody Allen?
He is a fake. Married his own step-daughter to boot.

Great movies on relationships:
Bergman made tons, including Scenes from a Marriage

Eric Rohmer... man even the titles are great
1969 My Night at Maud's
1970 Claire's Knee
1972 Love in the Afternoon
1976 The Marquise of O...
1978 Perceval
1980 Catherine de Heilbronn[citation needed]
1981 The Aviator's Wife
1982 A Good Marriage
1983 Pauline at the Beach
1984 Full Moon in Paris
1986 The Green Ray
1987 My Girlfriend's Boyfriend

Lina Wertmüller
1963	The Lizards
1965	Let's Talk About Men
1967	Don't Sting the Mosquito
1968	The Belle Starr Story
1972	The Seduction of Mimi
1973	Love and Anarchy
1974	Everything Ready, Nothing Works
1974	Swept Away by an Unusual Destiny in the Blue Sea of August
1975	Seven Beauties
1978	A Night Full of Rain
1978	Blood Feud
1983	A Joke of Destiny
1984	Softly, Softly
1986	Camorra (A Story of Streets, Women and Crime)
1986	Summer Night, with Greek Profile, Almond Eyes and Scent of Basil
1989	As Long as It's Love
1989	The Tenth One in Hiding
1990	Saturday, Sunday and Monday
1992	Ciao, Professore!
1996	The Nymph
1996	The Blue Collar Worker and the Hairdresser in a Whirl of Sex and Politics
1999	Ferdinando and Carolina
2004	Too Much Romance... It's Time for Stuffed Peppers

Rainer Werner Fassbinder (Germany)

Robert Altman (US)

Watching these films would make her better in the theater and more passionate with you IMO.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

LongWalk, I agree with your post on movies and relationships. 

What I meant by mentioning Woody Allen is to make a step toward the theatrical community. Woody Allen is the one that comes to my mind because I have a limited knowledge of what they would think are great directors, and I think Allen may be one of them.

I know in the US Allen is viewed as a ver controversial person, but in the rest of the world, certain in Europe he is seen as a genius.

So if he wants to gain some understanding of 'her world', I would say dive into some of his movies, because the artist and his work of art are not the same thing. And acquiring knowledge about one's art, learning to form educated opinions, communicating about them, does not require you condone them, or agree with the artists lifestyle.

I think this way of viewing and exploring theatre via the bridge of art movies and cinematographed theatrical plays could help him understand what world of art she lives in. They could have wonderful conversations and form a whole new area of intrest to exploit.


----------



## thummper

Theater can be a great place to use artistic talents, but it can be a danger as well. Many years ago I was very active in community theater in Salem. I'd have a hard time counting up the number of affairs that I personally saw or heard about from others. Quite a few marriages went up in smoke. It's fun to participate in productions *ONCE IN AWHILE*! When it gets to be a form of addiction, watch out. It may take a long time, but sooner or later harmful attractions WILL occur, many of which wind up going waaaaaay beyond the line! The after production parties are something to see, as are the myriad after rehearsal romps to the bars; a recipe for marital disaster. This site would have a hard time handling all the infidelity confessions that come out of those. From my personal observation, too much theater is a ticking time bomb to any kind of shaky marriage. Glad you two are able to work on this issue successfully.


----------



## davecarter

Acoa said:


> Yes, definetly. It's just discouraging when a trigger pops up and that feeling just blows away. Triggers used to be everywhere, now they are just around corners and in hiding, ready to pop out of what seems to be nowhere. Sometimes the triggers are quite stupid.
> 
> Don't get me started on the song "Blurred Lines". Ugh. We were driving along and the song came on, my wife started bouncing to the beat and reached over to turn it up. I thought I was going to hurl my stomach twisted so tight.
> 
> She was genuinely surprised, so I asked her to listen to the words. She pulled it up on Soundhound and was like, "oh." Needless to say, the station gets changed when that one comes on.


Strange - that very song is one 'highlight-trigger' of my Summer of 2013 when I was busy 'reinventing' myself.

Sorry to hear it has the opposite effect on you...


----------



## Acoa

Been kind of a blah month. Can't say it's anything she has done. As much as I'd love to blame her, I'm just feeling blue. I hope it ends soon and I break out of this funk.

I miss the fact she used to be able to cheer me up. I really miss that.


----------



## bfree

Acoa said:


> Been kind of a blah month. Can't say it's anything she has done. As much as I'd love to blame her, I'm just feeling blue. I hope it ends soon and I break out of this funk.
> 
> I miss the fact she used to be able to cheer me up. I really miss that.


Why can't she cheer you up?


----------



## Chaparral

Acoa said:


> Been kind of a blah month. Can't say it's anything she has done. As much as I'd love to blame her, I'm just feeling blue. I hope it ends soon and I break out of this funk.
> 
> I miss the fact she used to be able to cheer me up. I really miss that.


Maybe its the weather. If spring doesn't get serious soon I'm going to be sprung.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Chaparral said:


> Maybe its the weather. If spring doesn't get serious soon I'm going to be sprung.


Yeah, I hear that.


----------



## Acoa

bfree said:


> Why can't she cheer you up?


I had to think about this one for a while. It's hard to articulate.

Part of it stems from our communications style. We are both avoiders. So, when we conflict on a point, we tend to just avoid the topic.

When I trigger, sometimes I share it with her, sometimes I don't. She listens, comforts, aplogizes for hurting me. But I don't find comfort in that. Part of the reason is we never really agreed on the nature of her offense. 

She agrees that she lied to me. She is sorry for lying. And she is sorry that it hurt me. She agrees she shouldn't have had cybersex with other guys, that it was a "mistake". 

However, she doesn't call it an 'affair'. She allows me to call it that. But she won't call it that. She started off agreeing to that, but over time I started to notice she was just appeasing my view of it. She really doesn't own it at heart.

There is an interesting article Is Chatting Cheating? | Psychology Today . 

The article explains 2 view points on chatting as cheating. Basically some think it is, some think its not. It's intersting that to the cheater (aka chatter), it's not cheating; to the betrayed it is. Sounds like minimization to me. But I think the 2 view points in the article acurately define our different viewpoints on the topic.

She has stopped chatting up other guys. I think she understands the pain it's caused me. I don't think she sees it as a form of infidelity. 

I'm comfortable that she didn't take the behavior underground. I'm comfortable that she isn't on a path to repeat the behavior. I don't find any comfort from her when I trigger. It's like she is going through the motions of trying to comfort me, but it's empty inside. 

Looking at reconcilliation vs. rugsweeping. Reconcilliation should have at it's heart 4 components. No contact, Remorse, Transparency and Honesty. 

No contact - All good here. 

Remorse - Not good. She is sorry she hurt me. She says she is sorry for what she did, but I feel like it's more that she is sorry I found out. I think she hoped to stop and bury the incident and that I'd never find out. But I found out.

Transparency - All good here.

Honesty - Improving, but problematic. She wasn't being honest with me at first about percieving this as an affair. She said she did, but something didn't feel right about it. We talked about it today, and she admitted she doesn't thing chatting is the same as an emotional or physical affair. So, she is at least being honest about her viewpoint now. I'm not sure how to deal with that. I also don't trust her. She lied to me before, I see she is capable of it. My hypervigilance is constantly evaluating what she says against what she does. It's really exhausting.

Even with those issues, we have our good days. It's just very confusing and very difficult to get through the bad days. 

Blah, re-reading all that I'm tempted to delete it. It doesn't capture exactly how I feel. But the essence is in there. I'll leave it for when I come back to this later. I find reading through my posts here from months past helps me understand where my mind was at the time and what has changed, and maybe more importantly, what still needs to change.


----------



## LongWalk

You've done a good job with your thread, imparting a real sense of your wife's character. She strikes one as an attractive woman aware of her power to make others, and especially men, feel good. She does not feel deep remorse about her cheating because she just feels she was being herself. She did not change when she allowed sexting and telephone sex.

Didn't one guy say that he thought she had masturbated. She should have been livid at the suggestion but wasn't. But then he was also asking how she felt about having cum inside her.

For your wife taking sex talk to the PA level would have been both easy and hard. She would have felt that it was impossible to rationalize it as it was with telephone and text. She probably would have slid into a PA after letting kisses turn her head.

Your wife does love you but her love for you is patronizing. She expects to grow old with you. But in the meantime she is busy living as exciting a life as she can muster with theater.

Hollywood is a sort of theater. The people who inhabit that realm have loads of affairs. That world entrances her, makes her eyes shine.

Have you ever thought about surprizing your wife by taking her Chicago, NY or some other major metropolis to dinner and the theater? Don't tell where you are taking her. Just have her pack some evening clothes and go.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> She does not feel deep remorse about her cheating because she just feels she was being herself. She did not change when she allowed sexting and telephone sex.


I agree she doesn't feel deep remorse. More like regret. From everything I've found, it looks like she stopped the cybersex stuff 3 or 4 months prior to my discovery of it. Didn't go as far as telling the guys to stop contacting her, or unfriending/blocking them. So, although she 'stopped', the door was still open. I believe she regrets her actions. But more along the lines you regret being careless with your fine china while washing it and it winds up breaking. You know you should have handled it more carefully and you are upset you broke it. You understand how you could have been more careful and prevent it from breaking in the first place. 

After Dday, at my request she immediatly unfriended and blocked several people.



LongWalk said:


> Didn't one guy say that he thought she had masturbated. She should have been livid at the suggestion but wasn't. But then he was also asking how she felt about having cum inside her.


She says in a prior session she had told him she was. But she claims she was just writing fiction to see where he would go with it. She was enjoying the power she had over him and wanted to see what she could make him do. She says she was bored, liked the attention and the power she felt she had over the guys. She says she didn't feel attraction for the guys, but rather attraction to the power she had over them. To be able to craft a few words and get them all 'worked up'. 

Her story fits her history. She is not a masterbater, never has been. She has traditionally had low self esteem, and while extroverted has lacked the courage to put herself in the limelight. So I can see her getting a kick out of being able to lead on guys that used to bully her in high school. Doesn't make it right, or hurt any less for me. Just mentioning that it fits, makes sense and is probably the truth.



LongWalk said:


> For your wife taking sex talk to the PA level would have been both easy and hard. She would have felt that it was impossible to rationalize it as it was with telephone and text. She probably would have slid into a PA after letting kisses turn her head.


I agree with you here. She claims it could 'never' come to that. She was only doing it because it wasn't physical, they were not there in the room with her. I believe that she believes that to be true. However I also believe that if I hadn't discovered it, one day in the future somewhere the right situation would have occured and it would have went physical. We often fight about the fact that she is attractive and men will come on to her. She needs to come to grips with that desire to explore her power over other guys or it will become a problem again in the future. But she doesn't experience that and doesn't 'feel attractive' so she doesn't see it happening. I just /facepalm and shake my head in dibelief. 



LongWalk said:


> Your wife does love you but her love for you is patronizing. She expects to grow old with you. But in the meantime she is busy living as exciting a life as she can muster with theater.
> 
> Hollywood is a sort of theater. The people who inhabit that realm have loads of affairs. That world entrances her, makes her eyes shine.


Not sure about the patronizing love. I'll have to think on that for a while. I think its more that she takes our love for granted. Like it's unshakable and will always be there no matter what. Like I'm bullet proof and can handle anything. I think I've made it abundantly clear that this is not the case.



LongWalk said:


> Hollywood is a sort of theater. The people who inhabit that realm have loads of affairs. That world entrances her, makes her eyes shine.


The theater stuff is totally in line with the woman I married. She minored in Theater in college. She stopped being involved shortly after as we got married, moved around a lot and raised our family. The whole show must go on mentality becomes a huge time sink that was not compatible with raising kids. About the same time she 'stopped' chatting up these guys, she had a long conversation with a friend of hers (a safe one). This friend asked her if she was so bored why didn't she find some productive outlet. They explored past interets and theatre popped up. So, she checked out a local community theatre and it stuck.



LongWalk said:


> Have you ever thought about surprizing your wife by taking her Chicago, NY or some other major metropolis to dinner and the theater? Don't tell where you are taking her. Just have her pack some evening clothes and go.


We go into downtown Chicago at least a couple times per year. We did a long weekend to San Fran. Just asked for a list of things that interested her and planned the whole trip. She woke up each morning having no idea what was going to happen that day.


----------



## bfree

I don't know if you can take some solace in this but I believe in her heart she saw this as no more or less like theater, like playing a part. I don't believe she even contemplated the fact that it would hurt you. Now that does not excuse her for her actions but maybe it does reflect a little innocence or naivete on her part. She does seem to relish in the attention that the theater provides her so that fits as well.


----------



## bfree

Acoa said:


> The theater stuff is totally in line with the woman I married. She minored in Theater in college. She stopped being involved shortly after as we got married, moved around a lot and raised our family. The whole show must go on mentality becomes a huge time sink that was not compatible with raising kids. About the same time she 'stopped' chatting up these guys, she had a long conversation with a friend of hers (a safe one). This friend asked her if she was so bored why didn't she find some productive outlet. They explored past interets and theatre popped up. So, she checked out a local community theatre and it stuck.


I was under the impression that the theater contributed toward her infidelity but this suggests that she replaced her cybersex sessions with theater. Am I understanding correctly?


----------



## Acoa

The timeline goes cybersex with multiple people in 2010 and 2011, started theater in 2011 and Dday was the Sunday before Memorial day in 2012. So, theatre did not contribute to the cybersex, but there was overlap.

She claims she stopped the cybersex long before Dday and had no intention of restarting. However she left all the doors and windows open. So, long chain of fights over that topic. At my request she deleted them all off her FB and blocked the ones I requested she block. They were all people we went to HS with. Needless to say, no reunions in our future.


----------



## bfree

Acoa said:


> The timeline goes cybersex with multiple people in 2010 and 2011, started theater in 2011 and Dday was the Sunday before Memorial day in 2012. So, theatre did not contribute to the cybersex, but there was overlap.
> 
> She claims she stopped the cybersex long before Dday and had no intention of restarting. However she left all the doors and windows open. So, long chain of fights over that topic. At my request she deleted them all off her FB and blocked the ones I requested she block. They were all people we went to HS with. Needless to say, no reunions in our future.


Well, if she felt she was just in "theater mode" and in her mind was just acting it makes sense somewhat that she would just drop the role and go back to normal life. The fact that she dropped these people after D-day is at least showing you respect even if she still didn't believe that she was in the wrong. It almost sounds like she feels confused not as to why you are hurt but why you are hurt to the level that you are. If she found out you were spending time and money on porn sites, strip clubs and webcam shows what do you think her reaction might be?


----------



## Acoa

I think she is trying. The lack of empathy toward me has been a stumbling block. At least she is spending more time home this year. It shouldn't have taken me consulting a lawyer about divorce to achieve that. But I guess I should be happy with the result. 

We have talked about what would happen if things were the other way, or if she caught me spending money on strippers or prostitues. She said, "I'd be hurt, and I'd want you to stop, but I wouldn't leave you."

I'm thinking she has way understated it. She is lucky I have no desire to test her on that.


----------



## inman

Acoa said:


> I had to think about this one for a while. It's hard to articulate.
> 
> Part of it stems from our communications style. We are both avoiders. So, when we conflict on a point, we tend to just avoid the topic.
> 
> When I trigger, sometimes I share it with her, sometimes I don't. She listens, comforts, aplogizes for hurting me. But I don't find comfort in that. Part of the reason is we never really agreed on the nature of her offense.
> 
> She agrees that she lied to me. She is sorry for lying. And she is sorry that it hurt me. She agrees she shouldn't have had cybersex with other guys, that it was a "mistake".
> 
> *However, she doesn't call it an 'affair'. She allows me to call it that. But she won't call it that. She started off agreeing to that, but over time I started to notice she was just appeasing my view of it. She really doesn't own it at heart.*
> 
> There is an interesting article Is Chatting Cheating? | Psychology Today .
> 
> The article explains 2 view points on chatting as cheating. Basically some think it is, some think its not. It's intersting that to the cheater (aka chatter), it's not cheating; to the betrayed it is. Sounds like minimization to me. But I think the 2 view points in the article acurately define our different viewpoints on the topic.
> 
> She has stopped chatting up other guys. I think she understands the pain it's caused me. I don't think she sees it as a form of infidelity.
> 
> I'm comfortable that she didn't take the behavior underground. I'm comfortable that she isn't on a path to repeat the behavior. I don't find any comfort from her when I trigger. It's like she is going through the motions of trying to comfort me, but it's empty inside.
> 
> Looking at reconcilliation vs. rugsweeping. Reconcilliation should have at it's heart 4 components. No contact, Remorse, Transparency and Honesty.
> 
> No contact - All good here.
> 
> Remorse - Not good. She is sorry she hurt me. She says she is sorry for what she did, but I feel like it's more that she is sorry I found out. I think she hoped to stop and bury the incident and that I'd never find out. But I found out.
> 
> Transparency - All good here.
> 
> Honesty - Improving, but problematic. She wasn't being honest with me at first about percieving this as an affair. She said she did, but something didn't feel right about it. We talked about it today, and she admitted she doesn't thing chatting is the same as an emotional or physical affair. So, she is at least being honest about her viewpoint now. I'm not sure how to deal with that. I also don't trust her. She lied to me before, I see she is capable of it. My hypervigilance is constantly evaluating what she says against what she does. It's really exhausting.
> 
> Even with those issues, we have our good days. It's just very confusing and very difficult to get through the bad days.
> 
> Blah, re-reading all that I'm tempted to delete it. It doesn't capture exactly how I feel. But the essence is in there. I'll leave it for when I come back to this later. I find reading through my posts here from months past helps me understand where my mind was at the time and what has changed, and maybe more importantly, what still needs to change.


I often throw this back and forth in my mind. I can't say exactly how I would feel if it were me because I just don't know. But I'm pretty sure I believe this: as a general rule the only reason someone doesn't think that 'sexting' or erotic chat is cheating is because they're engaging in it. 

I don't know of anyone in their right mind who would, objectively, say "Eh if I found out my wife was talking some other guy off it wouldn't really bother me." 

I don't know how you would go about relaying that point to your wife, but if there is a way for her to really feel what you've felt; to actually _get it_, it would go a long way in motivating her to undo what damage she's done.


----------



## Acoa

Bad news . Wife deleted all her text messages sometime over the weekend without telling me first (per our agreement).

I checked the activity on the account and there were around 100 texts over 4 days to a male theater friend. 

I'll try to recover the texts, but damn. Just damn.


----------



## Chaparral

Acoa said:


> Bad news . Wife deleted all her text messages sometime over the weekend without telling me first (per our agreement).
> 
> I checked the activity on the account and there were around 100 texts over 4 days to a male theater friend.
> 
> I'll try to recover the texts, but damn. Just damn.


That's bad news. Good luck.


----------



## Acoa

It's bad. I confronted her and she said she was just cleaning it up and I could look at it. I hooked it up an started Dr.phone, she saw the message recovering deleted data and freaked out. She started quacking about how I should trust her and she wants her privacy. Then she said no and grabbed the phone and said I can't check it. 

I told her fine, I'll just assume she is a lying cheating wh0re and she should get the F out of my house. She refuses to leave. This isn't going to end well.


----------



## Acoa

She went to the theater for the evening. I took the opportunity to move her stuff into the living room. She doesn't work tomorrow, I'm sure I'll come home to some vindictive crap. I should pack up the important stuff.


----------



## Nothere

I'm thinking you should ABR to protect yourself. Always be recording. Wouldn't be confrontational about it just a voice activated recorder in case accusations fly


----------



## Steve1000

Acoa said:


> Bad news . Wife deleted all her text messages sometime over the weekend without telling me first (per our agreement).
> 
> I checked the activity on the account and there were around 100 texts over 4 days to a male theater friend.
> 
> I'll try to recover the texts, but damn. Just damn.


I read the entire thread and really couldn't believe it when I saw today's post from you. Very sorry. I know that going through the past two years of R for you has been tough and to end up with this result is just too cruel. The shock may not be as strong as two years ago, but the realization that she'll never change and knowing that this is probably the death blow to your marriage must be another kind of hell.

Again, I'm very sorry to hear this.


----------



## BobSimmons

When the dust settles and they start to feel safe, their true nature comes to the fore. You said she seems remorseful but lacks empathy, I'd say she was keeping you sweet until things calmed down, but that itch of needing that external validation is too strong.

You gave her so many chances and she hasn't grasped the nettle. Cheating is a choice, even though she knows the hurt it will cause she cannot stop herself. It's almost like she does it so can find out about it afterwards and redouble your focus on her.

Pack her stuff then leave it in the garage or better yet take it to the theater.


----------



## Acoa

I'm glad I gave R a try. If I had ended the marriage 2 years ago I would have had regrets. Now I am 100% sure it's done and that I tried. 

I'm going to visit the lawyer first, then the Bank then my pastor. 

I would like the house and custody for 3 years. Then she can have it. My Youngest has 3 more years of HS I would like to see her through. 

If that doesn't pan out, i will probably rent a room from my 87 year old grandma. Grandpa died a while back and she is living alone right now. Could be good for both of us. She is a dam good cook. And is only a 15m drive from the kids.


----------



## Acoa

What a mindf0ck. She left her phone and computer but factory wiped everything then checked herself in to an impatient behavioral health center. Her sister just dropped off the car.


----------



## Chaparral

Acoa said:


> It's bad. I confronted her and she said she was just cleaning it up and I could look at it. I hooked it up an started Dr.phone, she saw the message recovering deleted data and freaked out. She started quacking about how I should trust her and she wants her privacy. Then she said no and grabbed the phone and said I can't check it.
> 
> I told her fine, I'll just assume she is a lying cheating wh0re and she should get the F out of my house. She refuses to leave. This isn't going to end well.


I don't get this. The only way she would have gotten that phone back is over my dead body.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Acoa said:


> What a mindf0ck. *She left her phone and computer but factory wiped everything then checked herself in to an impatient behavioral health center.* Her sister just dropped off the car.


This is a ploy. She got rid of the evidence and signed herself in, so she can say "she tried" to everyone incase you decide to go through with the D.

You do realize that if you stay there about a 99% chance she'll do this again in 6 months to a year from now...

Tell her that you found a way to retrieve her phone records. You'll be getting hard copies in the mail. You expect them to be delivered with in 2 weeks.

I bet she sets a tent up next to your mail box...


----------



## Chaparral

Acoa said:


> What a mindf0ck. She left her phone and computer but factory wiped everything then checked herself in to an impatient behavioral health center. Her sister just dropped off the car.


Is this after she found her stuff stacked in the living room? 

You haven't had any discussions after the phone snatching incident?

What is your daughter thinking?


----------



## Acoa

Chaparral said:


> I don't get this. The only way she would have gotten that phone back is over my dead body.



I wasn't going to put myself in a position to be accused of domestic battery. Her reaction told me everything I needed to know. The truth was irrelevant at that point.


----------



## Acoa

Yes, it's a ploy. She is hoping I see her pain and comfort her. If not it puts her in a place to garner tons of sympathy from me divorcing my suicidal wife.

The kids don't know what to think. I haven't told them about the suicide threat. Just that she checked herself in to a facility to get help. To be honest none of them seem surprised. 

The kids are smarter than me I think.


----------



## Chaparral

Good luck and prayers. I don't have any advice here. It would probably be good to find out what she was hiding, but hey she made her bed.


----------



## tom67

Did you tell her sister what was up?
So sorry man.


----------



## Acoa

Yes, I gave her a minimum of facts, but everyone on my side knows as do a couple of her sisters.


----------



## warlock07

Check the computer...


And can you call this guy ? You can probably scare him in confessing something..


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> I'm glad I gave R a try. If I had ended the marriage 2 years ago I would have had regrets. Now I am 100% sure it's done and that I tried.
> .


I wish I didn't read this thread... just couldn't believe this. For whatever it worth my thoughts are with you. For whatever it worth your can stand tall and proud as your gave it all and more than anyone can expect in the situation like that. For whatever it worth you've done the right thing.

When I went through the pages I was thinking of anyone has ever (throughout these years) accused you off being too harsh and controlling when you were demanding limited access to that theatre thing... guess they can shut up now...

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Acoa said:


> Yes, it's a ploy. She is hoping I see her pain and comfort her. If not it puts her in a place to garner tons of sympathy from me divorcing my suicidal wife.
> 
> The kids don't know what to think. I haven't told them about the suicide threat. Just that she checked herself in to a facility to get help. To be honest none of them seem surprised.
> 
> The kids are smarter than me I think.


Acoa, I haven't been very active on TAM lately but I saw these latest developments and had to post a quick reply. I am so sorry that things have taken a turn for the worst. While I was hopeful that your wife was coming around she never really seemed remorseful and did not truly feel your pain over her actions. It sounds like she was just playing the role of what she thought a good wife should be and now she is playing yet another role, the role of a victim. Please make sure to protect yourself at all costs. If she is as dramatic as it appears she might try to entrap you by claiming abuse, an all too common ploy in today's society. I suggest you begin to protect yourself financially and carry a VAR with you at all times when around her. You are in my prayers Acoa.


----------



## tom67

warlock07 said:


> Check the computer...
> 
> 
> And can you call this guy ? You can probably scare him in confessing something..


:iagree:
Have a cold emotionless quick talk with this guy.
Thank him for taking her off your hands.
A little reverse psychology.
that will have him miffed.


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> She left her phone and computer but factory wiped everything then checked herself in to an impatient behavioral health center.


One more thing - hope it's not inappropriate time to make this comment - I'm aware about a very similar situation, although the problem was not cheating but online gambling. Husband requested access to the phone and PC and no deleted records policy with divorce being an immediate alternative, wife initially complied. After a while husband noticed deleted history on her phone and confronted. The wife wiped out the phone and 2 PC's at home then claimed that:
a) she has been wrongly accused w/out any evidence (e.g. **** did not delete the history at that time)
b) that because of that the had a nervous breakdown
c) that because of the breakdown she wiped the phone and PC's *after and as result of* the confrontation thus making herself a victim. 

Just be careful. The situation may be genuine... or not.


----------



## Acoa

Computer is clean, the guy said I have no idea what I'm talking about and hung up.

I'm sure she was doing everything on her phone. Probably caught on to the VAR in the car shortly after Dday. 

She called today. Wanted me to pack some clothes and arrange for the kids to come visit her on Mother's Day. I can do that. Her sister is going to take them over after church. I could tell she was hoping I would bring them, not going to happen. I will speak nice of her to the kids and give her free access to see them. Doesn't mean we are talking.


----------



## Acoa

Turin74 said:


> Just be careful. The situation may be genuine... or not.



I am assuming it is not genuine. 

Is she upset that I am ending our relationship? Yes, that I believe. But it is only because it tears down the image she has built with family and some friends. And it destroys the security and stability I bring. 

We have been together a long time. I feel bad for her and hope she gets the help she needs. But I need. Help too. For years my gut has been warning me and she has been feeding me a constant diet of crap. I can't palette any more. I need to get myself centered and I won't be able to do that if I allow myself to get sucked back in to her drama. 

Time to apologize to my gut for not listening and believing her when she claimed I was the problem. 

I knew it the moment she took the phone away and said "I need some privacy". 

To add icing to the cake, my aunt called me and mentioned she saw my wife at a car show in her town (a couple towns away) and she was with some people that have a bad reputation in town. She said hello and my wife said hello back and smiled and waved. My aunt thought it was strange at the time but didn't think much of it.)

When she is ready to talk I'll give her 3 choices: 

1. She can detail out the truth, all of it. Move out of the house to her dads and continue to get the help she needs. Then maybe in the future we can try dating again. That is not a promise of reconciliation, just the only condition in which it is possible.
2. She can keep her secrets, but still move in with her dad. I will treat her favorably in the divorce in exchange for letting me remain in the house with the kids until the youngest graduates HS. (My lawyer has said I don't
Have much hope of that as an outcome from a judge, )
3. She can fight me tooth and nail on all the above and take her chances in court where I have a good shot at limiting the amount of alimony because she has similar if not better earning potential than I do.

If she is genuine she should pick one, if not it's a crap shoot. Picking one doesn't mean she is genuine. Even if she picks one I don't know that she could ever convince me I had the whole truth. 

Anyway it unfolds it's going to be a tough couple of years. But at least I know it wasn't me. Could she still blame me? Sure, I fully expect her to. Would people eat her crap? Sure, she serves it up so nice it's hard to resist. I will pity them because I know how bitter the aftertaste is.


----------



## Chaparral

You caught her with the phone. What do you believe specifically happened?

You didn't know about her going to a car show? Do you suspect it was a date? Did she lie about where she was? Did you see who she was texting?


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> Could she still blame me? Sure, I fully expect her to. Would people eat her crap? Sure, she serves it up so nice it's hard to resist. I will pity them because I know how bitter the aftertaste is.


I think this may be the intent behind the whole drama. After all these years in the theatre she must be good at it. I also wander if you have been/will be accused of being some sort of controlling monster who drove her to that crisis.

In any case, imho, spouses have moral right to end the marriage... if this is done in an open and honest way only; this doesn't include moral right to cheat. You, in turn, have provided every possible opportunity to change, I think your moral high ground here is undeniable and that is rare if not unique. Wishing you strength to carry on like that.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acoa

I believe she has a dark side that remains hidden and she leads a dual life. She backed off after Dday1 but started to fall back into old behaviors recently. I don't think there is 1 boyfriend. I think she has a collection of FBuddies. 

Didn't know anything about a car show, probably thought she was at the theater. My guess is she would use the theater phone to arrange a meet up and leave her mobile at the theater so when I checked it I would think she was there.


----------



## Chaparral

if you have an attorney, get him to subpoena the texts, emails etc.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Chaparral said:


> if you have an attorney, get him to subpoena the texts, emails etc.


This would be a huge bargaining chip if she chooses door number 3.

If it were me, I'd do it just to see how bad she had really gotten. It would help me in detaching from her.

I get the feeling that she's been at this again for longer than you realize.

After all, she is an actress and all the world is a stage.


----------



## Chaparral

Well, its one thing to speculate, but you are thinking of three options and you have no idea what is going on. It may be very little but it may be huge. Its not even known where she is going and who she goes with or how often.


----------



## Acoa

Chaparral said:


> Well, its one thing to speculate, but you are thinking of three options and you have no idea what is going on. It may be very little but it may be huge. Its not even known where she is going and who she goes with or how often.



Does it even matter at this point? She is still trying to be the victim. The truth only matters if I try to R. I'm a never say never person, but I have a hard time seeing a scenario where that happens. 

If she starts confessing and worrying about me, then and only then would verifying the truth be a consideration. Personally, I don't think she has it in her.


----------



## Acoa

Chaparral said:


> if you have an attorney, get him to subpoena the texts, emails etc.



I have had a phone consult and we meet face to face on Wednesday. If we try to prove adulatory as grounds for divorce, then we will do that. The burden of proof in my state is high, and fault doesn't affect division of assets or spousal maintenance. It only impacts the duration of the proceedings. With fault you can close in under six months, without you need to live separate for two years. Unless we have a smoking gun he advises to go the two year route. Cheaper and less risk. The fault route can tie things up in court for 2 years anyway and you run the risk they don't find fault.

The big thing is to get temporary division of assets in place, then we each become responsible for our own spending and any new debt.


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> I have had a phone consult and we meet face to face on Wednesday. If we try to prove adulatory as grounds for divorce, then we will do that. The burden of proof in my state is high, and fault doesn't affect division of assets or spousal maintenance. It only impacts the duration of the proceedings. With fault you can close in under six months, without you need to live separate for two years. Unless we have a smoking gun he advises to go the two year route. Cheaper and less risk. The fault route can tie things up in court for 2 years anyway and you run the risk they don't find fault.
> 
> The big thing is to get temporary division of assets in place, then we each become responsible for our own spending and any new debt.



Could be mistaken, but reading your story I assumed you never had the smoking gun on the A ever get physical? Which is about the divorce process, obviously deception is always deception

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acoa

Turin74 said:


> Could be mistaken, but reading your story I assumed you never had the smoking gun on the A ever get physical?



No, never a smoking gun. 

Her grandmother visited her yesterday. My STBXW asked her to apologize to me on her behalf. Without going into any detail she admitted to her that she cheated and lied to me. 

My youngest visited her today and she told her that she hopes we can work out an agreement where we alternate weeks at the house. Not sure how that would work, but it at least shows she knows her recent antics were not effective.


----------



## Ripper

Acoa said:


> I believe she has a dark side that remains hidden and she leads a dual life. She backed off after Dday1 but started to fall back into old behaviors recently. I don't think there is 1 boyfriend. I think she has a collection of FBuddies.


Sorry to say, I agree. People typically don't check themselves in and get suicidal over dirty text messages. 

Seen almost the exact same thing play out with a family member. Long story short, we quit looking when the OM count got to double digits. If you think you are done with the marriage, I would be tempted to just let things go. This is an instance where thinking the worst might be better than the truth.

Sounds like the family court system in your state is as FUBAR as the others. The injustice makes you want to rage.


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> No, never a smoking gun.
> 
> Her grandmother visited her yesterday. My STBXW asked her to apologize to me on her behalf. Without going into any detail she admitted to her
> that she cheated and lied to me.


Could be wrong, but it sounds like an admission of PA to me, from a very common 'sexting is not cheating' LoD prospective.



> My youngest visited her today and she told her that she hopes we can work out an agreement where we alternate weeks at the house. Not sure how that would work, but it at least shows she knows her recent antics were not effective.


I'm not getting this... so she has cheated, got second chance, cheated again and now want you out the house half time? And where will you be expected to go these weeks? 

Perhaps I'm still a very naive person when it comes to marriage infidelity ... I should probably stop posting here as I'm not adding value our helping you, still fighting my own demons... My apologies, as I never intended to just voyeur on your situation.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acoa

No, I am with you Turin. I don't see alternating in the house to be viable, just mentioning that she proposed it. That isn't going to happen. One of us will be living here, the other out. Just a matter of getting the courts involved.

Sucky thing is in this FUBAR state she will likely get the house, half my stuff, custodial care of the kids, child support and permanent spousal maintenance. Even if I prove infidelity, it doesn't matter when dividing marital property . And because I have always made more than her I will be paying through the nose. And not because she can't support herself. No, it's because I pampered her and made her life easy. It's because i loved her and she played me for the chump i am.

See, we can start a bitter BS club. Shall we call it the BBSC? I am open to naming suggestions.


----------



## Turin74

I'm not bitter I'm angry... hell angry... so the name should be BANG (bitter and angry). 

Anyway, now when you explained that alternative weeks deal: that sort of thinking from HER side does not correlate with 'I'm so sorry, what have i done, nervous wreck, please forgive me, need help' MO ,
more like calculated thinking with legal view in mind, if you ask me.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## LongWalk

Acoa said:


> Does it even matter at this point? She is still trying to be the victim. The truth only matters if I try to R. I'm a never say never person, but I have a hard time seeing a scenario where that happens.
> 
> *If she starts confessing and worrying about me,* then and only then would verifying the truth be a consideration. Personally, I don't think she has it in her.


:iagree:

Don't talk to her until she does these things.

She should write up a timeline.

Your wife is addicted to male attention.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Acoa said:


> No, never a smoking gun.
> 
> Her grandmother visited her yesterday. My STBXW asked her to apologize to me on her behalf. Without going into any detail she admitted to her that she cheated and lied to me.
> 
> My youngest visited her today and she told her that she hopes we can work out an agreement where we alternate weeks at the house. Not sure how that would work, but it at least shows she knows her recent antics were not effective.


Get copies of texts from the cellular provider, sometimes adultery has bearing on alimony.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## harrybrown

When you can, be sure to expose far and wide.

Do you even know who the POSOM is? Have you exposed to his SO?

You tried for a long time. Hope you get those deleted texts.

So sorry, I thought for a while that she just was not that remorseful. She maybe never even stopped cheating.


----------



## Acoa

I'll see what can be done about the texts. I have phone numbers and times, but actual messages take a court order. I may not be able to get a court order unless I try to prove adultery. I may not go that route as it is long, expensive and against the advice of my lawyer. It has no impact on division of assets and is hard to prove.


----------



## Acoa

Turns out AT&T only stores messages until they are delivered. So there is nothing for a court order to uncover. 

Makes my choices pretty easy.


----------



## harrybrown

With the phone numbers, you should be able to tell their spouses.


----------



## tom67

harrybrown said:


> With the phone numbers, you should be able to tell their spouses.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## Acoa

The truth is starting to come out. She confessed to two affairs. One of over 2 years with the guy I suspected, one with another guy I thought was a friend. Both married.

I am devastated. Once I pull myself off the floor I will be contacting their wives.


----------



## Marduk

Acoa said:


> The truth is starting to come out. She confessed to two affairs. One of over 2 years with the guy I suspected, one with another guy I thought was a friend. Both married.
> 
> I am devastated. Once I pull myself off the floor I will be contacting their wives.


I'm so sorry man.

You will get through this.


----------



## harrybrown

Do not tell her you are exposing, just do it and make sure you get the information to the POSOM's wife and not intercepted by the POSOM. 

Some friend.


----------



## tom67

Acoa said:


> The truth is starting to come out. She confessed to two affairs. One of over 2 years with the guy I suspected, one with another guy I thought was a friend. Both married.
> 
> I am devastated. Once I pull myself off the floor I will be contacting their wives.


Aw geez
Sorry
We will be here for you what else is there to say.
I guess the guilt finally got to her.


----------



## tulsy

Acoa said:


> The truth is starting to come out. She confessed to two affairs. One of over 2 years with the guy I suspected, one with another guy I thought was a friend. Both married.
> 
> I am devastated. Once I pull myself off the floor I will be contacting their wives.


Sorry bro...I hate to say it, but that's probably only the tip of the iceberg anyways.


----------



## tom67

harrybrown said:


> Do not tell her you are exposing, just do it and make sure you get the information to the POSOM's wife and not intercepted by the POSOM.
> 
> Some friend.


:iagree:
Sigh...
Take a deep breath and go see both wives in person.
Best way to do it imo.


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> The truth is starting to come out. She confessed to two affairs. One of over 2 years with the guy I suspected, one with another guy I thought was a friend. Both married.
> 
> I am devastated. Once I pull myself off the floor I will be contacting their wives.


Feel for you, though - hope you won't find this offensive - you shouldn't be surprised. Of course this is still painful.

I wonder, if you can find some relief in getting back to these 'friends' legally of course, expose, etc.

My quote is 'obviously, whilst being married yourself, your character and moral boundaries did not stop your from having an affair with a married women. Therefore you will have to learn the right ways out of fear. I'm going to spend my every spare cent, my every spare minute and my every brain cell to make your life a misery using all legal methods available to me. This is going to be my hobby from now on and for some time'

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Chaparral

Don't forget cheaterville. For some reason, cheaters have a hard time handling being outed on the internet. I just don't know why they don't like sleeping in the bed they made.


----------



## Acoa

tulsy said:


> Sorry bro...I hate to say it, but that's probably only the tip of the iceberg anyways.



I believe this to be true. She told me about the first. Then I asked if there were any others. She started to say no, then gave another name. I was too floored to think. Next iMessage we talk I am going to ask is that all of them? You have to ask the question the right way or it's "technically" not a lie. Well, in a cheater's world that is how it works.


----------



## Acoa

JustPuzzled said:


> The first guy, was it the grade 3 friend or the cybersex guy? Someone else?
> 
> 
> 
> Second guy, close friend?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



First guy was someone else. 2nd wasn't particularly close. But particularly offensive. We had him, his wife and kids over for dinner a couple weeks ago. ****1ng cold.

I'll entertain revenge on the OM later. For now I am going to protect my kids and my finances. If I can ruin their lives in the process I won't feel bad about it. But let's face it, that is 4 men in 3 years, plus whatever I don't know yet. They may be sleaze, but it's obvious they are not the issue. Their wives know the truth, for now that will do.


----------



## Chaparral

Well, as cheaters go, she's good at it. Assuming she tried to go straight in the first place, she couldn't and thought she would' nt get caught.

I feel for you.


----------



## Chaparral

Acoa said:


> First guy was someone else. 2nd wasn't particularly close. But particularly offensive. We had him, his wife and kids over for dinner a couple weeks ago. ****1ng cold.
> 
> I'll entertain revenge on the OM later. For now I am going to protect my kids and my finances. If I can ruin their lives in the process I won't feel bad about it. But let's face it, that is 4 men in 3 years, plus whatever I don't know yet. They may be sleaze, but it's obvious they are not the issue. Their wives know the truth, for now that will do.


You talked to the wives?


----------



## Acoa

I only have the guys cell phone numbers. So I messaged the wives over FB. I wouldn't be surprised if the LTR guy is in an open relationship, so if I don't hear back so be it. I expect to hear from the other, if not I will follow up.


----------



## Ripper

Sorry brother. Like I posted earlier, saw a very similar situation play out with a close family member. She crashed hard like your "wife".

If its any consolation, her ex-husband is doing great now, one of the happiest guys I know. 

Maybe she will feel just bad enough to take it easy on you during the divorce, but I wouldn't count on it. 

Over 20 years together. Was any of it real? This kind of betrayal makes you understand why some places still "stone" adulterers.


----------



## Acoa

My son is in an upcoming production. I have requested that they ban this guy from the theater as a condition of my son's continued involvement with the production. Hopefully
It doesn't come to that, he is looking forward to performing.

Even if they wind up denying my request , the board has to meet to discuss. That ought to make things very uncomfortable for him. Not everyone at the theater is a scumbag.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Acoa said:


> My son is in an upcoming production. I have requested that they ban this guy from the theater as a condition of my son's continued involvement with the production. Hopefully
> It doesn't come to that, he is looking forward to performing.
> 
> Even if they wind up denying my request , the board has to meet to discuss. That ought to make things very uncomfortable for him. Not everyone at the theater is a scumbag.


Is this the theater that your wife participates in?


----------



## Acoa

bfree said:


> Is this the theater that your wife participates in?



Yes.


----------



## Chaparral

Acoa said:


> I only have the guys cell phone numbers. So I messaged the wives over FB. I wouldn't be surprised if the LTR guy is in an open relationship, so if I don't hear back so be it. I expect to hear from the other, if not I will follow up.


Other posters have said if a non friend on fbook sends a message, it will automatically go into the spam foder. To get a message to a non friend you have to pay a dollar. Does this sound familiar to your situation.

If you have their name you can try spokeo.com too.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Acoa said:


> Yes.


So I think it's safe to assume that her theater days are gone. Her life as she knew it is over. Make sure to protect yourself so she doesn't drag you down as she hits bottom. Acoa, I am so sorry at how things have gone but I know you will be better than ever someday soon. You're a good man and you have honor, something sorely lacking in today's society. You remain in my prayers.


----------



## Acoa

Thanks Bfree, kind words mean a lot right now. 

What she does is up to her. I told her I don't see anyway she
Could prove herself to me. I said she is welcome to try, and for our kids sake I hope she does. I hope that means no theater, but as a STBXW, she isn't my problem. I can only hope she gets the help she needs.


----------



## Chaparral

Do you think there is anything you would have done differently during recncilliation? She had us all fooled. Did she ever stop cheating?


----------



## Ripper

Hate to mention it, but time to get checked for STDs. Some don't show symptoms like HPV.

Also, if it was me, I would want to DNA the kids. It doesn't have to change anything, but I would want to know for sure. Plus, later in their lives it could have medical implications.


----------



## Acabado

just read the latest developments. I'm speechless.
She's a serial cheater and a patological lier and a fake victim. The coldess, the sneakyness she behaved the latest 4 years at least, parading OMs to you and your kids is just awful.
You know well this is not more than the tip of the iceberg. 
There's no chance in hell to recover this marriage. I'm sure she will go cold and nasty in the divorce.

I think it's a mistake you exposure at this point, play her for a while, let her spilll the beans, the extent of her betrayal. She will cut the info flow once she realizes you are exposing her.

I'm so sorry Acoa. You are in my thoughts.


----------



## Acoa

Already have an appointment at quest tomorrow for the full STD panel. 

I'll think on the DNA testing. Maybe later, for now the kids are dealing with a lot. I don't need to plant that seed in their minds.


----------



## Acoa

Chaparral said:


> Do you think there is anything you would have done differently during recncilliation? She had us all fooled. Did she ever stop cheating?



If I had it to do over, I would have been firm on no theater. The fact she was positioning so hard to keep that involvement was a red flag I missed. 

And no, she didn't stop cheating. Not even for a day.


----------



## farsidejunky

Brother. Have you read "Just Let Them Go" yet? It was by a poster on here. BLUF: you cannot supervise her actions 24/7/365. If she wanted to cheat she was going to find a way no matter what. You conducted yourself with honor. Playing armchair quarterback with yourself at this point is an exercise in futility and only serves to hurt you further. I am not saying ignore the pain, just walk away, with your head held high, no regrets, knowing you laid it all on the line for your marriage and she did not.


----------



## Acabado

Acoa said:


> And no, she didn't stop cheating. Not even for a day.


I'm rather sure the narrative she sold you (I didn't stop "cibersexing" becasue it wasn't really cheating by not being physical affairs afterall) was fake. She has been f'in around since at least 2010. Once she managed to gaslights you and snow you on this she felt empowered enough to go further in her scapades to the point of parading her OMs, getting off out of it. That simple.
She crossed many lines and then felt comfortable there, ready to crosss even more. This is how it works. Now there's no red lines left.
I believe even checking herself was planned, executed with an agenda in mind. Maybe she was tired of dealing, of hiding at plain sight and wanted out for good. It's not you had actually hard evidence. By going to that "hospital" she manages to get out as a someone to be pitied and burn any possible bridge left at the same time.
Sure enough she's a talented actress.


----------



## manticore

Acoa said:


> And no, she didn't stop cheating. Not even for a day.


you have to expose this guy, even if it means going to his home and speaking to his wife directly


----------



## tom67

Eventually you will have to tell the kids the basics of what has transpired.
Like you said they are pretty smart.
Most are in high school right?


----------



## Acoa

farsidejunky said:


> Brother. Have you read "Just Let Them Go" yet? It was by a poster on here. BLUF: you cannot supervise her actions 24/7/365. If she wanted to cheat she was going to find a way no matter what. You conducted yourself with honor. Playing armchair quarterback with yourself at this point is an exercise in futility and only serves to hurt you further. I am not saying ignore the pain, just walk away, with your head held high, no regrets, knowing you laid it all on the line for your marriage and she did not.


Yep, I've read that one. And I'm proud of the fact I gave her a 2nd chance. My only point was in responding to the question on if I would have handled things differently and hoping that maybe somebody benifits from reading this thread in the future.


----------



## Acoa

Chaparral said:


> Other posters have said if a non friend on fbook sends a message, it will automatically go into the spam foder. To get a message to a non friend you have to pay a dollar. Does this sound familiar to your situation.
> 
> If you have their name you can try spokeo.com too.


I wound up resending them from my Wife's FB account. She is friends with both of the wives. I'll update if they contact me. Otherwise I'll start digging for numbers to call. I think I know where I can get both of them.

I'm focusing my attention on compiling tax, bank and asset records and getting them copied for my meeting tomorrow with the lawyer.


----------



## tom67

Acoa said:


> I wound up resending them from my Wife's FB account. She is friends with both of the wives. I'll update if they contact me. Otherwise I'll start digging for numbers to call. I think I know where I can get both of them.
> 
> I'm focusing my attention on compiling tax, bank and asset records and getting them copied for my meeting tomorrow with the lawyer.


Well she was friends with them.
To think she was so conscious of her image.
The truth always comes out eventually.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Just to clarify, did any of her affairs go physical? I'm not sure if there is a standard of proof should you wish to file adultry under divorce claimants.


----------



## Acoa

Yes, she admitted that 2 were physical and multiple times over at least the last 2 years. She was "fuzzy" on exactly when they started. It was no sooner than 2011 with those 2. (That was when she met them). But there could still be others from earlier she hasn't disclosed.


----------



## Acabado

CASE_Sensitive said:


> Just to clarify, did any of her affairs go physical? I'm not sure if there is a standard of proof should you wish to file adultry under divorce claimants.


She already confessed she was carrying at least 2 full blown EA-PA since 2012 (DDay1).
Of course it just her voluntary confession = minimized, damage control version, hence the "tip of iceberg" thing.
She never admited PA before DDay1, "just" ciber affairs and never admited it was actualy "cheating".


----------



## manticore

Acoa said:


> Yes, she admitted that 2 were physical and multiple times over at least the last 2 years. She was "fuzzy" on exactly when they started. It was no sooner than 2011 with those 2. (That was when she met them). But there could still be others from earlier she hasn't disclosed.


while those 2 b*stards are POS that need to be exposed, as you said the problem is not them but your wife, obviously she was no being played as her actions before DD1 indicates she seeked and even controlled these sort of interactions.

I just can't even try to understand her mentality because her level of cynicism and selfishness is just amazing, even after being giving a chance after DD1 even after trying to improve the marriage and create solid boundaries she went a seeked affairs not because she was in the dopamine fog with OM (as she had multiples OM), but for the rush of the affairs itself.

the only good thing about this is that now you can leave without wondering what have would happened if you would have gave her a try doing your best, now you know that it was never about you and there was never you could had done better (in the sense of improving and securing the relationship).


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Acoa said:


> Yes, she admitted that 2 were physical and multiple times over at least the last 2 years. She was "fuzzy" on exactly when they started. It was no sooner than 2011 with those 2. (That was when she met them). But there could still be others from earlier she hasn't disclosed.


Sheet...hope you're hitting the gym and channeling that rage into a better you. Like others here have said, you can keep your chin up knowing you gave it your all. You'll always be able to look your kids in the eye with no shame, no regret, no apologies....your WW won't be able to say the same.


----------



## LongWalk

Acoa,

Understandably you had a hard time accepting what your gut was telling you because your wife is seductive and manipulative. She has probably always felt that she could keep you loving her. At some level she loves you, too, but you may have been her roommate and enabler rather than the man to whom she belonged. 

I think Machiavelli once wrote something about cheating wives coming home freshly ravaged by OM the first time and expecting the husband to detect this and confront. The inability of the husband to know disappoints them viscerally – he ought to know that they were tingling from head to toe. From there the contempt skyrockets. It probably disturbs them.

It may be that your wife has an even longer history of infidelity that goes back through almost your entire relationship.

IMO you absolutely should divorce her. However, she is not as strong as you. Clearly whatever she feels for you is partly based on your steadfastness. She is having a hard time dealing with the consequences of her behavior. It was a good thing that she checked into that clinic to begin detoxing.

I have a hard time imagining her ever going back to the theater ever. What happened is going to be common knowledge there and those who don't like her will make her feel like a fraud, for her love of the theater now appears a front for fornication. Was sex the big thing for her? Probably above all she loved the drama of cheating.

I suspect your wife is going to beg for reconciliation. But you should absolutely treat her like someone who is sick. She is.

Do the 180 absolutely. If at any point she wants to talk to you about a future together, you should require that she writes down a timeline of her infidelity. Moreover, it has to include explanation about how she began to entertain the idea of cheating because that began long ago. Perhaps, before you even met her she has cheated. Shop lifted or stolen. There is something compulsive about her behavior.

For you to every contemplate R, she has to figuratively strip naked and bare the dark inside. Her suicide threat suggests that she doesn't like that part of herself much.

Her number one priority now should be to perform as a parent.

Your wife is starting to look pathetic. The treasure of her heart and vagina are suddenly looking cheap and misplaced.

Do think you'll ever have the strength to forgive her? Will you hate her?

A bad production is over. You are going to begin to live again without smoke and mirrors.


----------



## harrybrown

I agree, if she will give you a timeline, that may help to know all the sick things she did and keep you moving away from her.


----------



## Graywolf2

Acoa said:


> I'll think on the DNA testing. Maybe later, for now the kids are dealing with a lot. I don't need to plant that seed in their minds.


It's very simple if you do someday. Buy a kit at WalMart or online for about $30. Swab the inside or your cheek and the kid's with a Q-tip and sent the kit to a lab and pay $130 more.



Acoa said:


> Yes, she admitted that 2 were physical and multiple times over at least the last 2 years.


Given your wife’s history I don’t think it’s in her nature to admit anything more than she absolutely has to. She threw overboard just enough to keep her ship from sinking.


----------



## Dyokemm

"She never admited PA before DDay1, "just" ciber affairs and never admited it was actualy "cheating"."

And this is the most disgusting part of her behavior...bad enough to be a worthless, disloyal WW, but to follow that up with TWO years of further lying and deception, blaming OP, and refusing to even admit it WAS cheating (while knowing and hiding ALL ALONG that it was actually a PA with these POSs) makes this situation unforgivable in my book.

Well its good she likes the theater, because she sure has turned her M and family into a f***ing Greek tragedy.

Acoa...follow through on the path you are on...file for D immediately.

Expose the A to everyone...both families, friends, the BWs and families of these POSs, and ESPECIALLY the theater group.

Detach from her completely....after the way she has treated you for the past two years, on top of the cheating, I would make it clear to her that you will not remain friends and never want to see her again unless absolutely necessary for the kids.

Let her see and feel that she has completely lost you forever.

If she ever fixes herself, and moves heaven and earth to earn it, you can always offer her the chance to date again in the DISTANT future, if that is something you decide you want to try.

But at this point, she needs to feel the full ramifications of what she as done to her life, her M, and her kid's lives.


----------



## Chaparral

Were either of he two men part of the theater clique?

Were they part of the group at the car show?


----------



## Acoa

Chaparral said:


> Were either of he two men part of the theater clique?
> 
> Were they part of the group at the car show?



Yes and yes.

Oh, and the truth is known far and wide. She put up some vaugebooking post that was a veiled suicide threat right before having herself committed. So everyone is calling
To see what is happening. She has confirmed to her sisters and grandparents. Her grandma is letting her move in with them so I don't have to try and share the house.


----------



## Turin74

Looks very planned a and premeditated imho

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acoa

Wow that feels good. One of the POSOM called 15 min ago to "clear the air". That he never had an affair with my wife and I had no proof. I told him I had texts and an admission. He still denied, so I told him to give me and my family a wife berth or I would destroy him. Oh, and that if his wife needed evidence for her court case I would happily provide.


He just called back balling like a baby to "apologize". Turns out his wife was listening in and he was trying to gaslight her and I due to me outing him. 

One more cheater revealed for who they are. One more BS who knows the truth. She was in a similar position where she suspected and he was gas lighting.


----------



## Chaparral

Acoa said:


> Wow that feels good. One of the POSOM called 15 min ago to "clear the air". That he never had an affair with my wife and I had no proof. I told him I had texts and an admission. He still denied, so I told him to give me and my family a wife berth or I would destroy him. Oh, and that if his wife needed evidence for her court case I would happily provide.
> 
> 
> He just called back balling like a baby to "apologize". Turns out his wife was listening in and he was trying to gaslight her and I due to me outing him.
> 
> One more cheater revealed for who they are. One more BS who knows the truth. She was in a similar position where she suspected and he was gas lighting.


This warms the cuckles of my heart............I always wanted to say that.

Prayers for your family and the other victims.


----------



## LongWalk

I think she is going have trouble putting herself together.

Better hope she doesn't self medicate with booze and pills.

Acoa,

The sooner you can forgive her and move on the better. Oh, and make sure you divorce her. Make her terms as tough as you can. She needs to f'ing work in order to screw her head on right.

You're best bet it is to find a new wife. It will take at least 6 months before you can deal with any sort of new relationship.

The chances of R depend too much upon you doing the heavy lifting. Your wife is too into herself to make the effort. But she needs to try and fix herself.

This is really going to suck for the theater society.


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> Oh, and that if his wife needed evidence for her court case I would happily provide.
> 
> 
> He just called back balling like a baby to "apologize". Turns out his wife was listening in and he was trying to gaslight her and I due to me outing him.
> .


Bravo, I liked the word 'destroy' there... with his wife listening bit it couldn't went better if you have orchestrated the whole thing... or wait... have you? ;-)

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## tom67

So one down and one to go eh?:lol:


----------



## manticore

nice, was this one the guy who pretended to be a friend or the other one?


----------



## Graywolf2

Acoa said:


> Yes, it's a ploy. She is hoping I see her pain and comfort her. If not it puts her in a place to garner tons of sympathy from me divorcing my suicidal wife.


This is exactly correct. In our society it’s better to be the victim. You were the victim and she is trying to out victim you. 

Stay as civil as you can to maintain your victim status. If you come down on her too hard she will win the sympathy vote no matter what she has done in the past.

The OM may try to use the fact that she is in the loony bin to give credence to her lying about their affair.

You are doing great so far. Remain calm and hold course. “Steady as she goes” towards divorce. 

As others have said maintain a good enough relationship for her to write out a time line and name all the OM. Get all the evidence you can.

Do NOT make a declarative statement that you are 100% divorcing. Let her think that her ploy has a chance of working.

Good luck.


----------



## LongWalk

:iagree:

Yes, at this point she should live with uncertainty. Indeed, she is the one who created it all. The POSOM who were also active in the theater, well they joined to score pvssy, what other perk is there at the amateur level?

All the lonely evenings for the sake of art.

Bet she's cheated on all her boyfriends as well.

She didn't mean for it to turn out this way. Bad script.


----------



## Ripper

Couple of guys I know around your age are going through infidelity and divorce proceedings. I don't know about your case, but they are fairly certain that their wives were faithful for most of the marriage.

I told them to look at it like this. They got pretty much the best years of their wives. They had them when they were young, pretty, and fertile. If they want to screw up now that they have smashed head first into the wall, let them. You can walk away and not have to put up with a now sagging, dumpy, miserable b1tch.

Again, you don't yet know how far back this crap goes, but it might help you deal with the feeling of injustice a little.


----------



## Acoa

manticore said:


> nice, was this one the guy who pretended to be a friend or the other one?



The other one. The pretend friend is next. I'll call next week if I don't hear anything on that front. For now I'll focus on my daughters 20th Bday, my STD testing and lawyer visit. That's all tomorrow. Going to be a busy day.


----------



## Acoa

Graywolf2 said:


> Do NOT make a declarative statement that you are 100% divorcing. Let her think that her ploy has a chance of working.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck.



On it. So far I've said that I need space from her so I can heal. I want to separate our assets for my own security and I'd like to see her focus on her healing. I won't be helping but I will be watching. I told her I don't know what it would take for me
To trust her again or if that was even possible, but the start would be her figuring out what brand of mental illness put her on this path and getting treatment for it. If in the future I am willing to take a risk on her again, then who knows.

Gives her hope and allows me to get my assets protected. I'm rooting for her to get better. Once she is, she can stand on her own and trying to win me back shouldn't be important.


----------



## LongWalk

Acoa said:


> Started reading MMSL. Interesting read and I see how applying some of ideas will help.
> 
> WW and I had a nice chat over dinner last night. She had a play performance in the afternoon and auditions for the next play in the evening, so I met with her in between for dinner.
> 
> This week was a good example of why I don't want her working two performances in a row. Between auditions for one, practices and productions of the other she will be at the theater every night this week.
> 
> I would have to rush home from work in order to have dinner with her, which can't be an every night occurrence. I would have to stay up late to talk with her when she gets home. She gets home normally between 10pm and 11pm. I need to get up for work at 5:30am. So, this can't happen every day either.
> 
> She now clearly understands my point of view. Which is good. In the past I would have just kept it to myself.
> 
> She was still rationalizing how under the right circumstances she might want to work on two back to back(depending on the play and the director). I just told her that I won't control her, she can do what she feels is more important. But I don't want to be in a marriage where I don't get to spend time with my wife. So. If she does that, it will be a sign to me that theater is more important than our marriage.


Is he one of the OM?


----------



## Dyokemm

"Gives her hope and allows me to get my assets protected. I'm rooting for her to get better. Once she is, she can stand on her own and trying to win me back shouldn't be important."

I understand your view here, but to me it sounds like you and your WW engaging in a 'p***ing contest' to see who can out manipulate the other.

If you never want her back (and I can't imagine why you would want a traitorous, serial cheating woman like her), then just be honest.

Tell her you are truly done with her...she will never again have the privilege of being your partner or friend and you want her forever out of your life.

You initially sounded like this was exactly how you felt...are you having second thoughts about ending the M and getting rid of her?


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Is he one of the OM?



No, we'll not one that I know about.


----------



## Dyokemm

"Looks very planned a and premeditated imho"

Turin,

I don't think so.

I think she got too comfortable since she has been successfully gaslighting Acoa for two years.

She got careless, and even after the issue of the texts came up, she assumed she could continue to control the situation through the same gaslighting techniques that she had been working for this entire time.

But then, she saw that the recovery program was gonna blow her out of the water and expose the whole deal.

She is in full on panic and a**covering mode.

Probably somewhere in her f***ed up mind, she is thinking that her public display of suicidal desperation will somehow allow her to keep her BH.

This is PURE cake-eating and I don't think she had ANY intentions of leaving her BH.

Acoa,

It sounds to me that the females in her family are circling the wagons around her...expect all of them to be working together on a gameplan to use dramatic expressions of remorse and guilt on her part to try and manipulate you back into the M.

The whole suicide watch, the 'don't see how you could ever forgive me' statements, and the leaving you the house to go stay at grandma's, are all meant to eventually make you feel sorry for her and soften your heart towards her.

It sounds like they will be approaching this as a team IMO.

Be prepared for it.


----------



## Acoa

Dyokemm;8741434
You initially sounded like this was exactly how you felt...are you having second thoughts about ending the M and getting rid of her?[/QUOTE said:


> Second thoughts? He!! No I am not having second thoughts. I am just being careful until custody and division assets are established. I have the tide in my side for now, I'm going to speak softly and carry a big stick.
> 
> If she feels there is hope for later she may not fight all that hard. And as I stated to her, I have no idea if it's even possible for her to prove she can be trusted. I am not lying or giving her false hope. Just not shattering her illusion of hope. I'm not comforting her or telling her I love her. I am just not being black and white.
> 
> The alternative would to grind into her that there is no hope and she should prepare for the worst. that would end her period of compliance. I would lose the support I have from her family and she would move back and fight me hard on finances. That would not turn out well for me because my state nearly always favors the mom.
> 
> No, I plan to divorce. But I will do it smartly, and logically and slowly if needed. I want my kids lives to be as normal as possible under the circumstances and she is complying perfectly in that regard.
> 
> And if taking my time helps her heal and be more balanced that is great. She is the mother if my kids. I don't plan to R, but it would be nice for them if she keeps her focus in treating her mental health issues and not focusing it on defending herself against me. She already understands I am not comforting her or helping in her healing. I will be focused in my own.
> 
> Does she deserve any grace from me? No. But for my kids sake, and because that's my nature it will give her some.
> 
> I will walk out of this with my head held high and no regrets for how I handled it.


----------



## Acoa

And I hear you DM. Taking the slow approach is going to test me and I will heed your warning. I have support from my family and friends too. They know what's going on and I've prepared them with an armory if 2x4's to smack me with lest I lose my head.


----------



## LongWalk

Very good, Acoa. No need for Cheaterville in your case. Keep sailing forward while the sea is calm. Her confusion is a perfect wind to maintain your heading to the best divorce possible.

She's been a SAHM most of your marriage, right? Alimony is scary.


----------



## Dyokemm

"I would lose the support I have from her family and she would move back and fight me hard on finances."

I can see how time would be good for you on this situation IF she gets a full, time decent paying job.

Do you have any contingency plans if she does not do this, my friend?

Because if she will not or cannot follow through on this, I don't see how time will be anything more than delaying the inevitable, and meanwhile forcing you to live in a relatively harmonious situation with someone you despise and who brings you constant pain.

Also, I highly doubt she will stay out of the house for long...she will soon be demanding to return to the home to be with her family 'for the kids' and because it is hers too.

Get ready for that...going to grandma's is just a temporary thing to play on your sympathies and try to show you she 'gets' it.

I doubt it will last long.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> She's been a SAHM most of your marriage, right? Alimony is scary.



Yes, and yes. The one spark of hope is that I only have an associates degree, and I put her through school and she finished her masters degree a few years ago. She has
As much or more earning potential than I have. Hopefully I can successfully argue for rehabilitative alimony (temporary to allow her time to get a job). 

In the end even if it winds up being permanent, it will be worth every penny.


----------



## Acoa

Dyokemm said:


> "I would lose the support I have from her family and she would move back and fight me hard on finances."
> 
> I can see how time would be good for you on this situation IF she gets a full, time decent paying job.
> 
> Do you have any contingency plans if she does not do this, my friend?
> 
> Because if she will not or cannot follow through on this, I don't see how time will be anything more than delaying the inevitable, and meanwhile forcing you to live in a relatively harmonious situation with someone you despise and who brings you constant pain.
> 
> Also, I highly doubt she will stay out of the house for long...she will soon be demanding to return to the home to be with her family 'for the kids' and because it is hers too.
> 
> Get ready for that...going to grandma's is just a temporary thing to play on your sympathies and try to show you she 'gets' it.
> 
> I doubt it will last long.



No, no back up plan yet. I have a 20" stack of paper to review with the lawyer this afternoon. I'm going to follow his advice.


----------



## Turin74

Dyokemm said:


> Turin,
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> ...
> 
> Probably somewhere in her f***ed up mind, she is thinking that her public display of suicidal desperation will somehow allow her to keep her BH.
> 
> ....
> 
> The whole suicide watch, the 'don't see how you could ever forgive me' statements, and the leaving you the house to go stay at grandma's, are all meant to eventually make you feel sorry for her and soften your heart towards her.
> 
> It sounds like they will be approaching this as a team IMO.
> 
> Be prepared for it.


We are talking about the save thing here, I don't disagree with you. By 'planned' I meant that it doesn't look to me that it was so much guilt and remorse there that purely drove her to the edge. More likely what you've just said.

Funny thing I've misspelled 'drove' and my phone keyboard suggested 'divorce'...

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Caz867

Acoa said:


> I'm working on 'healthy trust' as my therapist calls it. Trusting a little, and giving more trust as it's earned. Also decreasing trust when it's broken. My therapist says complete trust is not healthy, and it's okay if I never fully trust her again. As long as I can get to a point where I trust her enough. (Sounds so ambigious, I strugle with the concept).


I read your entire story.

I am an ACOA. I have trust issues too but if there was one person I trusted in this world, it was my husband. *Complete trust*. Yes, complete trust is not healthy. It gives the other person the freedom to do whatever they want... 

Hardest thing I've done so far; working on healthy trust. I sympathize with you.


----------



## Acoa

((caz)) big hugs for Caz.


----------



## barbados

Caz867 said:


> Yes, complete trust is not healthy. It gives the other person the freedom to do whatever they want...


:iagree:


----------



## Acoa

Ok, don't judge, but I just heard Katy Perry Roar. I think I have a theme song for the year:

I used to bite my tongue and hold my breath
Scared to rock the boat and make a mess
So I sat quietly, agreed politely
I guess that I forgot I had a choice
I let you push me past the breaking point
I stood for nothing, so I fell for everything

You held me down, but I got up (HEY!)
Already brushing off the dust
You hear my voice, you hear that sound
Like thunder gonna shake the ground
You held me down, but I got up (HEY!)
Get ready 'cause I’ve had enough
I see it all, I see it now

[Chorus]
I got the eye of the tiger, a fighter, dancing through the fire
'Cause I am a champion and you’re gonna hear me roar
Louder, louder than a lion
'Cause I am a champion and you’re gonna hear me roar


----------



## Acoa

Just got initial phone call from the Mormon. Played the same as the first with scumbag #1. Ending salvo was him asking why I was trying to destroy a family. I told him I am not, he did when he unzipped his fly and stuck his D1ck in my wife. Then I hung up. 

Let's see if he calls back crying like a baby. I doubt it, he is a tougher man, but maybe.


----------



## Acoa

Oh and he said his wife was upset now. I just said she had every right to be and if he was any kind of man he would nut up and let the truth be free.


----------



## Regret214

I remember distinctly when Dig spoke to the xOM the night of Dday. The xOM was crying to him not to tell his wife because he had a family. Dig's response was so do I mother f-er. Although he also told him that if he ever contacted me again that he would kill him. Seems the OM's are pretty cowardly in the end.

Again, I'm sorry you endured this torture. I actually read the entire thread last night. Dig did too because he had the night off.

I hope you find peace again.


----------



## manticore

Acoa said:


> Just got initial phone call from the Mormon. Played the same as the first with scumbag #1. Ending salvo was him asking why I was trying to destroy a family. I told him I am not, he did when he unzipped his fly and stuck his D1ck in my wife. Then I hung up.
> 
> Let's see if he calls back crying like a baby. I doubt it, he is a tougher man, but maybe.


if he is a mormon then you can go to his pastor and rat him out with evidence, in their religion don't take light this kind of bahaviour, but they will ask you for evidence.


----------



## Acabado

Acoa, I'd like to tell you something even I'm wrong in my asessement.
I fear you are starting to shift the blame out out your wife. I'm talking about your statments (at least twice) about your wife's allegued "mental illness" (you are already expecting a diagnose).
She has no mental illness at all. She's a selfish, selfcentered serial cheater who happens just got caught for good. Got caught with several married men precisely in the circle she's so happy to fit, she's not about to lose jut the family she clearly doesn't value anymore, money, finances, half custody... but public reputation, the status she valued over everything. We don't know anything about those men (regarding serial cheating) but sure enough she's going to be judged harshy as a serial homewrecker, the attention wh0re drama queen. She's about to loose everything she holds so precious.
Sure, checking herself due her alleged suicidal ideations is partly manipulative, pity seeking but If I were in her position I'd be scared sh!tless myself. For sure.. but she's just depressed and scared, not mentally ill!!!.
She got so clueless and careless that managed to sh1t over everything she cared about and she will forced to give up it all. And she fears consequences. Remember she has been gaslighting everyone for at least 4 years. she's used to that conttrol, to the power of holding the cards with her narratives. She just lose all that control and she doesn't like it one bit.
Not ill.


----------



## convert

I think she may have hurt her chances for any custody with the kids (although i forget how old the kids are) with this mental illness issue, then again it may have upped her alimony stakes, I am not sure here


----------



## Graywolf2

Your posts from today make me think that you are on the right track.



Acoa said:


> The start would be her figuring out what brand of mental illness put her on this path and getting treatment for it.


I’m old enough to remember Flip Wilson, a comedian whose tag line was: “The devil made me do it.”

Let her use whatever mental syndrome they suggest she might have as an excuse even if it’s total BS. 

Don’t call her out and make sympathetic comments to people so that those comments will get back to your wife. 

That way nothing will be her fault (The devil made her do it) and she can spill her guts more feely without fear of judgment or repercussions. In fact, the more she admits the more of a victim she becomes. 

What you want is evidence for your own piece of mind and to nail the OM.


----------



## Acoa

I don't care what she has or doesn't have. Just reflecting back to her to keep her calm. 

We are getting a D. Hopefully in 4 hours I'll have a better idea how I will fair with custody give her recent antics. 

Right now I can claim I don't want my kids to come home to see Mom hanging on the back porch. This is a credible concern. 

That may not become the permanent arrangement, but it gives me room to breathe. 

In the short term I am focused on stability for the kids and protecting the money. She is going to get a chunk of that money no matter what I do or she does. I'm not going to make it any easier in this state than it already is for her to take me to the cleaners.


----------



## Dyokemm

"Seems the OM's are pretty cowardly in the end."

Regret,

I would argue they have been that ALL ALONG, despite what a WW might think she sees while caught up in the excitement of the A.

They are lying, secretive, manipulative little weasels. It's only after the shock of the A ending that most WWs finally see what was in front of their face all the time.

There is not a shred of honor or character in any of these POSs who chase other men's wives.


----------



## Regret214

Dyokemm said:


> "Seems the OM's are pretty cowardly in the end."
> 
> Regret,
> 
> I would argue they have been that ALL ALONG, despite what a WW might think she sees while caught up in the excitement of the A.
> 
> They are lying, secretive, manipulative little weasels. It's only after the shock of the A ending that most WWs finally see what was in front of their face all the time.
> 
> There is not a shred of honor or character in any of these POSs who chase other men's wives.


Funny you say that, because I actually thought the same after I hit post. That said, I didn't want to come off as disingenuous in any way given my status as a former wayward. But in my opinion you are right.


----------



## LongWalk

She may not be mentally ill with a diagnosis of some disease but she checked into an in-patient service for mental health reasons. Actions speak louder than words. She is not well.

Acabado's analysis right on in any case.

Serial cheater is correct description.

Put the POSOM on Cheaterville.


----------



## harrybrown

Acoa said:


> Just got initial phone call from the Mormon. Played the same as the first with scumbag #1. Ending salvo was him asking why I was trying to destroy a family. I told him I am not, he did when he unzipped his fly and stuck his D1ck in my wife. Then I hung up.
> 
> Let's see if he calls back crying like a baby. I doubt it, he is a tougher man, but maybe.


Find out the Bishop of the ward (congregation) that he (mormon) attends.

They will ask for evidence, but this is a big mistake in that church. It will not be swept under the rug, and he will face tough consequences. 

Hope you can some day find peace.


----------



## Acoa

I'll have to see what kind of proof is required. When push comes to shove I doubt my STBXW is going to sign a sworn statement. On the other hand might test her new resolve to be honest. But I'm not really interested in testing her. Meh.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Do what you want, but it all depends on the congregation and Bishop. You know, just like any church, it all depends on the head of the community's leader. Yep, they can rugsweep as well.


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> Just got initial phone call from the Mormon. Played the same as the first with scumbag #1. Ending salvo was him asking why I was trying to destroy a family. I told him I am not, he did when he unzipped his fly and stuck his D1ck in my wife. Then I hung up.
> 
> Let's see if he calls back crying like a baby. I doubt it, he is a tougher man, but maybe.





Acoa said:


> Oh and he said his wife was upset now. I just said she had every right to be and if he was any kind of man he would nut up and let the truth be free.





Acoa said:


> I'll have to see what kind of proof is required. When push comes to shove I doubt my STBXW is going to sign a sworn statement. On the other hand might test her new resolve to be honest. But I'm not really interested in testing her. Meh.





phillybeffandswiss said:


> Do what you want, but it all depends on the congregation and Bishop. You know, just like any church, it all depends on the head of the community's leader. Yep, they can rugsweep as well.


Read through Thorburn's thread. He spoke to the head of OM's congregation and threatened to lead a very public protest outside of the church unless OM called him and 1) admitted his part in his wife's infidelity (he'd vehemently denied it even though WW had confessed) and 2) apologized to him for it.

Sure enough, the clock ticked by and, as the deadline approached, OM called, confessed, and apologized. *And* he had the nerve to ask for Thorburn's advice on how to save his own marriage. LOL.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

GusPolinski said:


> Read through Thorburn's thread. He spoke to the head of OM's congregation and threatened to lead a very public protest outside of the church unless OM called him.


Gus, you have left out much of the drama involved to get the confession. Yes, go read it and see if you draw the same conclusion as Gus. Oh, there was a ton of rug sweeping, blame shifting and even threats of reporting before he got the guy to confess. Yep, I was in the thread posting. It actually started to shake Thorburn's faith.

We all see things differently. I am not against you telling them, I'm saying don't believe it is going to be easy or positive, as it depends on the congregation and leader.


----------



## GusPolinski

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Gus, you have left out much of the drama involved to get the confession. Yes, go read it and see if you draw the same conclusion as Gus. Oh, there was a ton of rug sweeping, blame shifting and even threats of reporting before he got the guy to confess. Yep, I was in the thread posting. It actually started to shake Thorburn's faith.
> 
> We all see things differently. I am not against you telling them, I'm saying don't believe it is going to be easy or positive, as it depends on the congregation and leader.


Yeah, I know. OP doesn't have all of the details, whereas Thorburn had significantly more. (Actually, at that point, I believe he had everything except for OM's confession and apology.) And, in Thorburn's case, the head of OM's congregation was in OM's corner, fully buying all of his bullsh*t, and was absolutely prepared to 100% rugsweep.

Until Thorburn upped the ante.


----------



## Acoa

I have enough drama in my life. I don't think I'm going to bother with them anymore. I know the wife got the message. I know she knows I'm sure. The danger is she trusts him. But even then she has the seeds of doubt planted. If God wants him revealed for the POS he is it will happen. I'm not feeling called to lead that charge. I did my part. 


Now turning energy and attention to lunch. Taking myself on a date to PF Changs for Pad Thai before the lawyer visit.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Acoa said:


> I have enough drama in my life. I don't think I'm going to bother with them anymore. I know the wife got the message. I know she knows I'm sure. The danger is she trusts him. But even then she has the seeds of doubt planted. If God wants him revealed for the POS he is it will happen. I'm not feeling called to lead that charge. I did my part.


That's how I feel. IMO, no need to keep pushing the OM at this point. It is not your job to make sure he pays, you did your due diligence as the wife knows. If you did report I think that is cool as well. 

Look, I understand Thorburn's reasoning. I do not agree, but we all live our own lives. He wanted to save his marriage and went in for all the drama. You have said you are done, but you are waiting to make the end easier for you and your kids. Two different situations.



> Now turning energy and attention to lunch. Taking myself on a date to PF Changs for Pad Thai before the lawyer visit.


Enjoy yourself.


----------



## Acabado

Those BWs are going to try their best to make your STBX person non grata, Happens all the time, whether they try R or not..
Your wife knows it, that's where the suicidal thoughts come from. This woman (WW) is not different than the one that got busted years ago and played her cards so well. She's very smart. 

I can't start imagining... what about your kid, the one involved in theater too? Is he aware? How is he doing?


----------



## Acoa

Acabado said:


> Those BWs are going to try their best to make your STBX person non grata, Happens all the time, whether they try R or not..
> Your wife knows it, that's where the suicidal thoughts come from. This woman (WW) is not different than the one that got busted years ago and played her cards so well. She's very smart.
> 
> I can't start imagining... what about your kid, the one involved in theater too? Is he aware? How is he doing?



The Mormon lives in NC now, so he is out of the picture. The other is the one who is still involved at the theater.

My son knows what happened, but not with who. I figured better that he not know then get pulled into the gossip at the theatre. 

I've talked with the president, production manager and director. They all know what happened and with who. The agreed last night that POSOM will not be allowed in the theater when the cast is present (aka, my son). After this week I would be surprised if he show his face at all. 

I have 2 friends on the cast that know too. They will not let on they know unless POSOM is spotted. 

She was apparently discreet about it at the theater.


----------



## GusPolinski

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Acoa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have enough drama in my life. I don't think I'm going to bother with them anymore. I know the wife got the message. I know she knows I'm sure. The danger is she trusts him. But even then she has the seeds of doubt planted. If God wants him revealed for the POS he is it will happen. I'm not feeling called to lead that charge. I did my part.
> 
> 
> 
> That's how I feel. IMO, no need to keep pushing the OM at this point. It is not your job to make sure he pays, you did your due diligence as the wife knows. If you did report I think that is cool as well.
> 
> Look, I understand Thorburn's reasoning. I do not agree, but we all live our own lives. He wanted to save his marriage and went in for all the drama. You have said you are done, but you are waiting to make the end easier for you and your kids. Two different situations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now turning energy and attention to lunch. Taking myself on a date to PF Changs for Pad Thai before the lawyer visit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Enjoy yourself.
Click to expand...

I get all that, and I agree, to a degree. I think that Thorburn _needed_ OM to admit it, and understandably so. After all, he didn't truly know how much of what his WW was saying he could trust, as she'd spent years denying, gaslighting, etc. Hell, I'd need OM to admit it as well, and for his wife to hear it. 

But hey, the seeds have been planted. No pun intended.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yes and that's why I am saying it is two different situations. I see both sides, I am just saying it is different. he has exposed pretty dang well and if he is cool leave the church stuff out.


----------



## Acoa

Ugh this state sucks. Filing for
Cause of irreconcilable differences. My best bet is penning An offer she will sign. If she fights me I could be on the hook for a bunch. 


It's good she had herself committed and is going
To be released to her grandmother. But in the end if she decides to move back into the house there is nothing I can do to stop her. So stupid.


----------



## Turin74

Regret214 said:


> Dyokemm said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Seems the OM's are pretty cowardly in the end."
> 
> Regret,
> 
> I would argue they have been that ALL ALONG, despite what a WW might think she sees while caught up in the excitement of the A.
> 
> They are lying, secretive, manipulative little weasels. It's only after the shock of the A ending that most WWs finally see what was in front of their face all the time.
> 
> There is not a shred of honor or character in any of these POSs who chase other men's wives.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny you say that, because I actually thought the same after I hit post. That said, I didn't want to come off as disingenuous in any way given my status as a former wayward. But in my opinion you are right.
Click to expand...

Cheating is always cheating ,no matter who did it, but - and I realise this may not go well with the rest of the crew here - I still hold men to a slightly higher standard here. Call me sexist if you like. E.g. if a woman cheated she's still a women for me (can't hit her), while OM loses his status of man in my eyes (still can and want hit him though).

That is why it feels so appropriate and therapeutic to channel the hate into efforts to destroy OM...

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## GusPolinski

Turin74 said:


> Cheating is always cheating ,no matter who did it, but - and I realise this may not go well with the rest of the crew here - I still hold men to a slightly higher standard here. Call me sexist if you like. E.g. if a woman cheated she's still a women for me (can't hit her), while OM loses his status of man in my eyes (still can and want hit him though).
> 
> That is why it feels so appropriate and therapeutic to channel the hate into efforts to destroy OM...
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


The drive to mate w/ as many desirable females as possible is perhaps our basest instinct. The desire to utterly destroy, emasculate, and humiliate those who have dared to lay a hand upon our mate is a _very_, _*Very*_, _*VERY*_ close second.

Those unable to control the former should expect to be met w/ the latter.


----------



## Turin74

Amen

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## the guy

For what its worth I hope your old lady comes out of this with an understanding of what she has become and who she is now and makes the changes to be a emotionally healthier women for your kids sake.

So often they come out and their idea of working on them selves is to go to bars and pick up strange. I hope your old lady finds the right path that won't leave her completely *alone* with a house full of cats and cat boo with her kids resenting her for the choices she makes from here on out.

You my friend seem like you are getting your sh1t together and will turn out fine...to grow old *surrounded* by good friends and family.

You gave her a shot and she used up her get out of jail free card only to go back to the SOS for the past 2 years. She had her chance way back when and she phucken blow it!

How damn stupid........she got caught before she knew she would get cuaght again and took a stupid chance that cost her everything. No wonder she is in the loony ben.

You know guys it just goes to show you how phucking addictive this adutory really is and how even when given a 2nd chance some waywards blow it.


----------



## Ripper

Acoa said:


> Ugh this state sucks. If she fights me I could be on the hook for a bunch.
> 
> But in the end if she decides to move back into the house there is nothing I can do to stop her. So stupid.


Welcome to forced wealth distribution via family court.

My two cents: Try to get her to agree to something that limits the alimony, use the house, cars, other property to sweeten the deal if you have too. 

Material possessions don't matter. You will be surprised how much crap you don't need when you are lone wolfing it. The writing an alimony check every month is what is going to eat at you.


----------



## harrybrown

She had more than 2 OMs.

She may never tell you. But is does not matter now.

Good she is going to be out of your life. Hope she keeps the OMs away from your kids.


----------



## Acoa

harrybrown said:


> She had more than 2 OMs.
> 
> 
> 
> She may never tell you. But is does not matter now.
> 
> 
> 
> Good she is going to be out of your life. Hope she keeps the OMs away from your kids.



Going to be a tough year getting things organized and separated. But yeah, I'm done digging for any truth from her. I know all I need to. 

On a brighter note, during this I went out for a beer with a buddy and he confided that his wife had cheated on him and they were in R. He used my Dr. phone to restore texts from her iCloud back up. The recovered info matches her story exactly. I'm glad for him. At least his cheater came clean.


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> Going to be a tough year getting things organized and separated. But yeah, I'm done digging for any truth from her. I know all I need to.
> 
> On a brighter note, during this I went out for a beer with a buddy and he confided that his wife had cheated on him and they were in R. He used my Dr. phone to restore texts from her iCloud back up. The recovered info matches her story exactly. I'm glad for him. At least his cheater came clean.



Have you considered writing a book? I'm only half joking....

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> Going to be a tough year getting things organized and separated. But yeah, I'm done digging for any truth from her. I know all I need to.
> 
> On a brighter note, during this I went out for a beer with a buddy and he confided that his wife had cheated on him and they were in R. He used my *Dr. phone* to restore texts from her iCloud back up. The recovered info matches her story exactly. I'm glad for him. At least his cheater came clean.


This...?

Dr.Fone(Mac)- Recover Data from iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch/iTunes backup on Mac


----------



## manticore

Acoa said:


> Going to be a tough year getting things organized and separated. But yeah, I'm done digging for any truth from her. I know all I need to.
> 
> On a brighter note, during this I went out for a beer with a buddy and he confided that his wife had cheated on him and they were in R. He used my Dr. phone to restore texts from her iCloud back up. The recovered info matches her story exactly. I'm glad for him. At least his cheater came clean.


send him to TAM, dont let him rugsweep, tell him about trickle truth, gaslighting and going underground, you know all the dance and also tell him about NC letter, the fog and heavy lifting.

Just in case you can be his best ally to not let him fall in a fake reconcilation, I know you wish the best for him but you also know that cheaters can fake remorse and still look for their thrill on the side.


----------



## Acoa

Turin74 said:


> Have you considered writing a book? I'm only half joking....
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_



Had my first visit with my therapist since Dday 2. She mentioned it sounded like a script for a lifetime movie and I could sell the story. 

And Dday 2 just seems woefully understated.


----------



## Acoa

manticore said:


> send him to TAM, dont let him rugsweep, tell him about trickle truth, gaslighting and going underground, you know all the dance and also tell him about NC letter, the fog and heavy lifting.
> 
> 
> 
> Just in case you can be his best ally to not let him fall in a fake reconcilation, I know you wish the best for him but you also know that cheaters can fake remorse and still look for their thrill on the side.



Good idea. I mentioned the site, but I should send him the link to my story. He did several things right. But there is a lot to learn from the collective wisdom here on TAM. I'd like his wife to read it too. I'm rooting for them. They are at a really critical point.


----------



## Acoa

My therapist loved the interaction I had exposing the OM. Said the way I handled it showed a lot of confidence. Something that I haven't had a lot of recently and that it was good to see.

We are going to focus on coping strategies for if she tries to return to the marital home before the divorce is final. The thought of that terrifies me, but is unfortunately a very real possibility.


----------



## Acoa

GusPolinski said:


> This...?
> 
> 
> 
> Dr.Fone(Mac)- Recover Data from iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch/iTunes backup on Mac



Yup. Bought it so I had all the tools and because of STBXW wiping her phone and not having any backups didn't get any use out of it. At least my buddy did. Pretty nice little program. Okay, no more advertising (unless the company is reading this, I'm not beyond bribery. PM me!)


----------



## Dyokemm

"We are going to focus on coping strategies for if she tries to return to the marital home before the divorce is final. The thought of that terrifies me, but is unfortunately a very real possibility."

This is good news.

As I mentioned before, my friend, I think staying at grandma's is a temporary act to gain your sympathy.

If she thinks its working she'll want to rush back to 'fix' the M with you ASAP.

If she catches on that you are truly done, she will demand to come back because its 'her house too' and then proceed to fight you tooth and nail on everything (in all probability).


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> My therapist loved the interaction I had exposing the OM. Said the way I handled it showed a lot of confidence. Something that I haven't had a lot of recently and that it was good to see.
> 
> We are going to focus on coping strategies for if she tries to return to the marital home before the divorce is final. The thought of that terrifies me, but is unfortunately a very real possibility.


Terrified? I'll dare to say that you seen to be underestimating your mental toughness... you'll be ok!

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## LongWalk

For your divorce settlement the most important thing to get primary custody as a result of your wife's hospitalization. Even if it is interim having more than 50% custody will reduce the cost of child support.

I suggest you blast forward full speed with divorce. If your wife begs for reconciliation, you can make the terms of divorce a condition she must agree to minimal limited alimony. Let her find a way to prove to you that she is worthy of R. Making you happy should be a devotional calling. The first step is for her to move out.

You early indicated that you wanted that option. Having it is not a bad thing. 

Your wife needs to work. She should not give up the theater. Her project should be to write a play about infidelity.

Make sure you push the D forward. It will educate her about the consequences.


----------



## Acoa

I'm going to see if I can get her to agree to mediation for the divorce in order. To limit how much the lawyers take. I am still consulting a lawyer, and will be basing my requests on their advice.

My plan is to ask her to stay at her grandmothers and let me reside in the house. We can negotiate whatever visitation schedule she wants to propose. However it must be a schedule, not free pass to show up whenever she wants. 

If in the final settlement she wants to reside in the house with the kids, she needs to earn it. Have a job, be mentally and emotionally stable and have not isolated herself from all of her support systems (which is what she is doing, she is essentially in hiding).

If she is unable to find meaningful work or is still mentally and emotionally unstable, then I will fight for full custody of the kids. 

If she meets those conditions I will agree to a shared custody arrangement and let her but me out of the house.

I could get her to agree to some things based on hope of possible future reconciliation, but that isn't going to happen. As much as I'd like to make her miserable, it could backfire. She could say she only agreed because I took advantage of her emotional state which she will claim was caused by my leaving (it will be convenient to leave out why I am leaving.) 

In addition to that legal angle , it wouldn't be good for me emotionally. I need to be clear with her that this is the end. I need to set boundaries that will be harder to enforce if I'm trying to maintain an illusion of hope for her. It's also living a lie. That's what got me into this mess. Sure it was her lie, but reversing it doesn't make it right. I want to fight for living my life honestly. That's not always easy. This is one of those cases.


----------



## bandit.45

Sounds like a good plan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Very clear thinking.


----------



## harrybrown

Are you still trying to use the 180 to help you heal?

I am glad you have IC that is helping you.

Can grandma talk any sense into her?

You have a good plan, hope your attorney helps you so that you do not get saddled with all the woes of divorce.

Are your kids holding up? They may need some IC in the future.


----------



## Ripper

Sounds like a solid plan, but you are going to have to adept on the fly. Seeing how she broke the marriage via infidelity and betrayal, you should get to call the shots. Unfortunately, courts still heavily favor the ladies, especially the stay at homes, regardless of their behavior.

Even with everything she has done, this is still going to play out more according to her whims then yours. That is a hard pill to swallow.

Her remorse (you mean actions have consequences?!) and isolation will work in your favor for now. Once some feminazi starts whispering in her ear, the game is up.

Good luck.


----------



## Acoa

Plan is only a plan. I'm sure I'll have to adapt. Just need to start somewhere. 

Not sure there is any sense to talk into her. She just wants things to go back to normal, which makes no sense.

She was released today and stopped by to pick up some stuff. I wasn't home, but youngest daughter ran into her. 

I told STBXW she could invite the kids to grandmas for dinner if she wanted. She didn't say yes or no, and as of yet hasn't invited them. So, I'll take that as a no and plan dinner for tonight.


----------



## Acoa

harrybrown said:


> Are you still trying to use the 180 to help you heal?
> 
> 
> 
> I am glad you have IC that is helping you.
> 
> 
> 
> Can grandma talk any sense into her?
> 
> 
> 
> You have a good plan, hope your attorney helps you so that you do not get saddled with all the woes of divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> Are your kids holding up? They may need some IC in the future.



Yes, I'm following the 180 like a bible. Really leaves her flat at the end of the conversation when she says I love you and I just hang up. Awkward, but effective. 25 yrs of patterns and habits take some conscious thought to break.

The biggest thing for both of will be her getting a job. If she can get employment with pay at her education level, then I should be good. If she decides to sleep all day on grandmas couch, I'll get hosed. But so will she. We use 100% of the income. Even if she took me to the cleaners in the divorce she would not be able to afford the house without a full time, benefits paying position somewhere.


----------



## Acoa

Oh, and the kids are holding in there. I'm working hard to make sure things are "normal" at the house. But I agree some IC will be good for them at some point in all this.


----------



## Dyokemm

"She just wants things to go back to normal, which makes no sense."

Perfect example of a cake-eater.

She NEVER intended on leaving you, Acoa.

She just wanted to have some fun and it didn't matter to her that it meant betraying you and her family.

And now you've gone and destroyed her perfect little world...I predict she will either fall apart completely and start begging you profusely for another chance, or she will become resentful at her lost easy life and get very vindictive.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Acoa said:


> Good idea. I mentioned the site, but I should send him the link to my story. He did several things right. But there is a lot to learn from the collective wisdom here on TAM. I'd like his wife to read it too. I'm rooting for them. They are at a really critical point.


Sorry for your loss, it must be hard after all this time invested to loose the relation you were hoping for.

Now others can learn from your experience, if you advise them and look into their cases. I am shocked that she was so successful in hiding her affairs. The red flags were there but I am sorry we all got lured into the situation after last summer.

It never stopped you say, are there things where, with hindsight, you and we could have been alerted that something had to be investigated?

Are there things not done that could have led to detection?


----------



## Acoa

See_Listen_Love said:


> It never stopped you say, are there things where, with hindsight, you and we could have been alerted that something had to be investigated?
> 
> Are there things not done that could have led to detection?



The biggest red flag was my gut. She was quite masterful at her deception. She made me doubt myself and was so firm in her assertion of innocence it had me feeling crazy. I even went on antidepressants at one point.

She rarely called him from our phones. If she did, it was just to arrange work at the theater. She was in charge of props and he was the building super and stage hand and key grip. So the communication I monitored via texts and var seemed legit. But leads to red flag number 2, there was too much of it. She was communicating with him too much. Sure it was about tables or building storage carts for props, but the sheer volume of interaction was odd. A couple of months, she texted him as much as she texted me. (And I read them all, verified against the bill until the most recent event that led to discovery).

We went to over 60 counseling sessions together post Dday1. I was very explicit in that I felt there was more to her story and that now was the time for truth. I warned her that if more came out after counseling and I found out that all these counseling sessions were all lie, we would be over. She still lied. Even convinced the therapist. 

During my last visit, my therapist commented that this situation is rare. She said most active cheaters will avoid counseling or break into the ILYBINILWY stuff. So , I guess that makes me special, but not unique. If I had to guess, she has some form of dissociative personality . It's really wicked.

They didn't plan much. He would look at my wife's FB and she would post status messages like "headed to the theater to work on props". Or she would text him to see if the crew had moved the junk from the last build as it was blocking the fire doors . If he was available he would just head over. If not he would respond "no, but I can get over tomorrow to work in it." 

They were discreet even with other theater people. I'm sure someone knew or suspected, but it certainly was not common knowledge. I even dropped by the theater unannounced a few times when she was going to be there alone to "surprise" her. But I think she would use the find my iPhone app to keeps tabs on me. So, in hindsight I should have gone Tom Clancy in her ass. I thought about it a couple times, but just figured I was losing my marbles. 

In the end, the gas lighting, deceit and disingenuous assertions of undying love hurt more than the affairs. And the affairs hurt more than anything I've ever felt in my life (and I've had a hard life). I'm feeling better now that my course is set on divorce than I have felt in many years. 

I know it's been said over and over again, trust your gut. If you suspect something, keep digging. Hopefully my story helps someone realize this point earlier than I did. Living with that self doubt was destroying me.


----------



## LongWalk

Your wife is probably not that unusual. The ILYBINLw/Y is common for women who want to be sexually exclusive with OM. Your wife was cake eater who was just enjoying excitement.

If you and all her OM were standing at the edge of a cliff and she were told to choose, she could only take one home, and the others would all be pushed off, she would probably save you. If there was a follow up question: "You know you will have to have sex with him 5 nights of the week and enjoy it, do you still want him?"

She would probably still answer, "I can do it."

Your wife loves you but the level of disrespect was horrific. She knows that. That is why she collapsed. The credit goes to her that she knows your statements in MC were not bluster. She kept raising the stakes. You called her bluff and she knows it.

If she is proud and unwilling to eat humble pie now, then you'll know her for what she is and be grateful that you are rid of her. If she is remorseful, the whole D will be more painful.

If she begs and pleads for R, tell her to write out a detailed timeline of all her infidelity and thoughts about it during your entire marriage. Regardless of what she produces, reading it should help you gain closure.

Her future as a divorced cheater who used the theater as cover for fornication is going to pollute the group. It is going to follow her into post D life. It would not surprize me if she starts to age or drink.


> Five years ago we moved back to our hometown. Wife was very social in high school and her family is very active in civic matters in town. So, she knows hundreds of people who live near us. She connected over facebook with old friends from high school. Became active on the reunion committee and started going to various informal gatherings that took place mainly at bars to sing karaoke.


 It's going to be hard to be her. Karaoke is not going to be as fun.


----------



## Chaparral

Acoa said:


> The biggest red flag was my gut. She was quite masterful at her deception. She made me doubt myself and was so firm in her assertion of innocence it had me feeling crazy. I even went on antidepressants at one point.
> 
> She rarely called him from our phones. If she did, it was just to arrange work at the theater. She was in charge of props and he was the building super and stage hand and key grip. So the communication I monitored via texts and var seemed legit. But leads to red flag number 2, there was too much of it. She was communicating with him too much. Sure it was about tables or building storage carts for props, but the sheer volume of interaction was odd. A couple of months, she texted him as much as she texted me. (And I read them all, verified against the bill until the most recent event that led to discovery).
> 
> We went to over 60 counseling sessions together post Dday1. I was very explicit in that I felt there was more to her story and that now was the time for truth. I warned her that if more came out after counseling and I found out that all these counseling sessions were all lie, we would be over. She still lied. Even convinced the therapist.
> 
> During my last visit, my therapist commented that this situation is rare. She said most active cheaters will avoid counseling or break into the ILYBINILWY stuff. So , I guess that makes me special, but not unique. If I had to guess, she has some form of dissociative personality . It's really wicked.
> 
> They didn't plan much. He would look at my wife's FB and she would post status messages like "headed to the theater to work on props". Or she would text him to see if the crew had moved the junk from the last build as it was blocking the fire doors . If he was available he would just head over. If not he would respond "no, but I can get over tomorrow to work in it."
> 
> They were discreet even with other theater people. I'm sure someone knew or suspected, but it certainly was not common knowledge. I even dropped by the theater unannounced a few times when she was going to be there alone to "surprise" her. But I think she would use the find my iPhone app to keeps tabs on me. So, in hindsight I should have gone Tom Clancy in her ass. I thought about it a couple times, but just figured I was losing my marbles.
> 
> In the end, the gas lighting, deceit and disingenuous assertions of undying love hurt more than the affairs. And the affairs hurt more than anything I've ever felt in my life (and I've had a hard life). I'm feeling better now that my course is set on divorce than I have felt in many years.
> 
> I know it's been said over and over again, trust your gut. If you suspect something, keep digging. Hopefully my story helps someone realize this point earlier than I did. Living with that self doubt was destroying me.


While their texts seem innocuous, and there were so many, I expect they had a code thing going. It could have been very simple though to simply let each other know when they were available.

You did a good job catching them and outing the Posoms. I think you will do much better with your next love. I know you can take good care of yourself and your kids.

I disagree with your counselor about how rare her cheating was. The huge A#shley [email protected] site is just for cheating women who want side action but not a divorce. The supposed numbers using that site are beyond mindblowing and its getting worse. The owner claims that its because women are becoming more and more independent. Australia now has more women signing up than men, supposedly because women are further advanced in feminism there.


----------



## Graywolf2

Acoa said:


> I even dropped by the theater unannounced a few times when she was going to be there alone to "surprise" her. But I think she would use the find my iPhone app to keeps tabs on me.


That's a switch. The WS is where they're supposed to be and the BS is tracked with their iPhone.


----------



## Acoa

Graywolf2 said:


> That's a switch. The WS is where they're supposed to be and the BS is tracked with their iPhone.



Yep, good reminder that
It works both ways.


----------



## LongWalk

Acoa,

Your children are old enough to understand what is going on. You will not be able to keep it secret long. How will you cope with this?

Your son is the most vulnerable perhaps.


----------



## Acoa

They know enough. Yes, my son is taking it pretty hard. Hasn't talked to mom in a week. The girls have visited her at the hospital and had dinner with her last night. 

Son didn't go for dinner so I picked up subs and we bonded over switching cell phones around. 


STBXW wanted to get rid of the iPhone, so we swapped his number to it and got her a cheap flip phone. No point in letting a good phone go to waste. It may be a painful reminder to her, just a cool phone to him.


----------



## LongWalk

His phone will be a trigger for you.

Do you mean that your stbxw requested that you help her get another phone? How did she convey this request?

What do your daughters think about your wife's breakdown? They must realize that you are estranged from one another because of something that has destroyed your relationship.

It can be very hard on young adults to become the communications channel between you. Avoid it. 

I think all you can really say to your children at this point is that your mother cheated on me and just leave it at that.


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> STBXW wanted to get rid of the iPhone, so we swapped his number to it and got her a cheap flip phone. No point in letting a good phone go to waste. It may be a painful reminder to her, just a cool phone to him.


I wonder why she wanted to get rid of the iPhone... E.g. if truly remorseful she should've got rid of that theater 1st (like 2 years ago)?
Or is it "because of this bloody thing with cloud I got caught"? Typically messages on old style phone are not recoverable that easy...


----------



## Chaparral

Turin74 said:


> I wonder why she wanted to get rid of the iPhone... E.g. if truly remorseful she should've got rid of that theater 1st (like 2 years ago)?
> Or is it "because of this bloody thing with cloud I got caught"? Typically messages on old style phone are not recoverable that easy...


She wants to "show she is done with cheating and she has turned a over a new leaf. Doesn't need a phone that is so useful for cheaters anymore." She is sure she has deleted all info. I would use the programs that recover deleted texts.

This is just part of her "I'm coming home now, you can trust me, I've learned my lesson and I'm really a good trustworthy person too" plan.


----------



## LongWalk

Her chances of R have narrowed to a slit the width of vinyl record. The only way he'll consider taking her back is if she makes a complete confession, but that will also increase his resolve to divorce her. So, she is in a bad spot (of her own making).

When the WW is facing a ruined life as one of the town's middle-aged cheating divorcees, the depression must be terrible. I wonder what sex with BS means when the painful reality in grinding them down. I suspect that for some for BS to kiss them and have ordinary intercourse (giving them hope out of nowhere) might be so emotionally intense that they cannot climax. It would take a second round before they could relax.


----------



## GusPolinski

Chaparral said:


> She wants to "show she is done with cheating and she has turned a over a new leaf. Doesn't need a phone that is so useful for cheaters anymore." She is sure she has deleted all info. I would use the programs that recover deleted texts.
> 
> This is just part of her "I'm coming home now, you can trust me, I've learned my lesson and I'm really a good trustworthy person too" plan.


I'm sure that OP wiped the phone before giving it to his son, though perhaps he backed it up prior to doing this. I sure as f*ck would have.

Either way, it sounds like he has all the proof he needs.


----------



## Chaparral

GusPolinski said:


> I'm sure that OP wiped the phone before giving it to his son, though perhaps he backed it up prior to doing this. I sure as f*ck would have.
> 
> Either way, it sounds like he has all the proof he needs.


He has all he needs to divorce her of course. But it sure would be nice to know who else is on the list. People he may trust, talk to and deal with. Could be a good friend, neighbor Bob, farmer Joe etc.

Not knowing who has betrayed you doesn't sound like a plan.


----------



## GusPolinski

Chaparral said:


> He has all he needs to divorce her of course. But it sure would be nice to know who else is on the list. People he may trust, talk to and deal with. Could be a good friend, neighbor Bob, farmer Joe etc.
> 
> Not knowing who has betrayed you doesn't sound like a plan.


Well sure. And, like I said (or meant to imply, I guess), hopefully he backed it up before giving it to his son, because I'm about 110% certain that he wiped it first. Assuming, of course, that his WW didn't do it first.

Either way, as upset as he is w/ his WW, there's no way that he'd want his kid to be able to uncover any of Mom's exploits first-hand.


----------



## Turin74

GusPolinski said:


> I'm sure that OP wiped the phone before giving it to his son, though perhaps he backed it up prior to doing this. I sure as f*ck would have.
> 
> Either way, it sounds like he has all the proof he needs.


As far as I remember all the history, backups, etc are tied to the A^%le ID, not the phone #/SIM card. So if its backed up the stuff is still there


----------



## Acoa

She wiped the phone prior to committing herself. So, no chance to back up or recover anything. 

When she called from the hospital she said she didn't want a smart phone and I could throw her iPhone away. She asked for some type of phone as she did give out that cell number in her job searches (another possible lie)

Her phone will not be a trigger, it's a phone. The phone was never the problem, she was. I'm not tossing out a $400 phone on the request of an irrational cheater.

She got rid of it to "prove" to me she was done cheating (yeah, like tossing a phone proves jack). But it could be she just realized that iPhones are that easy to recover from so she wants a dumb phone because then info once deleted stays that way. 

It would be nice to know who else is involved, but I'm fine without that. She can be someone else's problem.


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> And the affairs hurt more than anything I've ever felt in my life (and I've had a hard life).


This. Think about this for a second. That is what puzzles me: why when you spent half of your life with a man going through some hard times together, you need to hurt him to understand his values? Like I've been through all this rough staff which is not my fault and never backed down (in my case also some less than usual things like risking my life/health at least for my SO)... so can I relax now? Not really, need go get off my high horse as there is likely a guy around who has more opportunities to tell her how beautiful she is more times per day (in the gym, theater, club, party, office, circle the relevant, add the missing) simply because I'm somewhere else else earning bread and butter for the family. Right?


----------



## Ripper

You thought she was special. You saw the best when there was no reason too and gave her more credit than she was due. 

Now she has lost you and the very thing that made her special. All for other men who treated her like a piece of meat. 

Intelligent lady.


----------



## aug

Ripper said:


> You thought she was special. You saw the best when there was no reason too and gave her more credit than she was due.
> 
> Now she has lost you and the very thing that made her special. All for other men *who treated her like a piece of meat*.
> 
> Intelligent lady.



That's what she was more comfortable with.


----------



## LongWalk

Acoa,

You have gained resolve, strength and clarity. You had the qualities before but you suppressed or perverted them in the belief that it was for your marriage and family. Does it feel as if you have rediscovered yourself?

Given that you have been struggling with the gut feeling for a long time, do you think detachment from your wife will go quicker than if it had all come from out of the blue?

How long do you think it will take to begin dating and replace your WW? 

News of your wife's infidelity will spread. In a small community like yours there will be single women who will be interested in you.


----------



## tom67

LongWalk said:


> Acoa,
> 
> You have gained resolve, strength and clarity. You had the qualities before but you suppressed or perverted them in the belief that it was for your marriage and family. Does it feel as if you have rediscovered yourself?
> 
> Given that you have been struggling with the gut feeling for a long time, do you think detachment from your wife will go quicker than if it had all come from out of the blue?
> 
> How long do you think it will take to begin dating and replace your WW?
> 
> News of your wife's infidelity will spread. In a small community like yours there will be single women who will be interested in you.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
You will recover from this.
Try to settle out of court if you can.
Pay for her lawyer and come out of it less screwed.


----------



## Acoa

Fun day yesterday. Took my youngest and my god daughter to ACEN. It was fun to see the creativity in the abundance of cosplay. 

I can still have fun and smile and laugh. So I know I'll be fine. My wife lost a good thing and she knows it. 

When I'm ready I'll have no problems with loneliness. There is a group of singles at work who go out at least once a month to dance or sing or laser tag or something fun. Two of the girls in the group already approached me and said they will keep posted on events and when I'm ready that they would love for me to join them. No pressure, just a friendly invite.

I'm not even going to consider dating for a while, but I'm not worried about it, it will be awkward I'm sure, but also a hell of a lot of fun.

Until them between work, kids, my garden and negotiating a divorce, I'm swamped.


STBXW was awakened to the reality in a big way this weekend when I told her we would be holding separate parties for my sons Bday/graduation. I told her she could use the house as long as she cleaned up after the party. She was stunned, just kind of whimpered a response. Not even sure what she meant, but felt that it was time for me to go. So I said good bye, walked out and went home.

Safe to say the reality of all this is starting to hit home.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Acoa,
> 
> 
> 
> You have gained resolve, strength and clarity. You had the qualities before but you suppressed or perverted them in the belief that it was for your marriage and family. Does it feel as if you have rediscovered yourself?
> 
> 
> 
> Given that you have been struggling with the gut feeling for a long time, do you think detachment from your wife will go quicker than if it had all come from out of the blue?
> 
> 
> 
> How long do you think it will take to begin dating and replace your WW?
> 
> 
> 
> News of your wife's infidelity will spread. In a small community like yours there will be single women who will be interested in you.



I'm very much back in touch with myself. I have some apologizing to do to myself as I am hurt by the fact I didn't trust myself. But I'll get there. 

The detachment is going to go very fast for me. I'll have some moments of longing for what I wish I had with her. But it is so obvious to me now what a sham that was I will move on quickly.

I'm going to hold off dating until at least after Xmas. After Xmas I'll decide if I want to start dating again or wait longer. Maybe I'll find a singles New Year's Eve party and dance the night away and kiss a stranger at mid night. 

I'm definitely going to stay single for a while. You are right that I'll have plenty of women I know who will want me, but I'm going to take my time. I'm going to be sure and date several people before I decide on anything long term.


----------



## LongWalk

In stbxw's mixed up mind she probably blames you for not getting tougher with her earlier. Sad. She never thought her marriage was at stake. She kept cheating even when you were on to her.

All of the forbidden pleasure is getting a revisionist treatment. If you asked her if it felt better being fvcked by other men, she would probably reply no and believe it. So desperate is she for the curtain fall before a final and happy third act.

When you start dating other women, she'll die inside.


----------



## harrybrown

She is out of the hospital and out of grandma's house and back in yours already? 

Or are you still at home and were talking to her at the hospital or at grandmas? 

How quick will she help you get a divorce?


----------



## Acoa

She is at grandma's house. I was talking to her there when I came to pick up the kids. 

Her cooperation in the divorce is still an unknown. Time will tell but for now I have what I want. The kids with me, residing in the marital home. 

Tomorrow will tell what tomorrow brings, I'm ready for battle , but hopeful it won't come to that.


----------



## LongWalk

Your wife doesn't sound like a person to fight of money and stuff, but dividing possessions may become a focus once she realizes there is no saving your marriage.


----------



## Acoa

Yes, she is very attached to her stuff. But I think dividing will go easy. She will want the books, movies and various collectables. There are a couple pieces of furniture that are family heirlooms from her side. I will want the camping and fishing gear. Gardening stuff stays with the house. If we fight over anything it will be cookware, and that is all highly replaceable.


----------



## harrybrown

Did your attorney tell you how long the D may take?


----------



## Acoa

Just stated the average is 7 to 10 months and that she can't promise anything. But if we both work in good faith during mediation it shouldn't take any longer than the average.


----------



## harrybrown

I do hope you come out of her mess, in good shape.

Hope you get custody and she pays child support and alimony.

I do hope you have separated your checking account etc. 

You gave her chance after chance. 

She should leave you alone and go bother the OMs.


----------



## Acoa

FYI, just started a new thread in the going through divorce and seperation forum. I'm going to post updates there on how the divorce process is proceeding. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/194106-time-has-come.html

I will continue to post here as well, but my focus here will be more on my mental state, things I'm doing to better myself and remain sane. I think it's time to split this thread in two.


----------



## Acoa

Been cleaning up and purging. Ran across a journal I had never seen. Like many of her journals there wasn't much written. But what I did find was alarming. 

She was a chaperone on a ski trip with out church youth group in 2007. There was a youth from another group there that caught her eye. She had debated on how far she would have to go to get his "positive attention" and decided it was too risky at a Christian retreat.

Who is this woman? This goes back further and is deeper and darker than I ever imagined it could be.

It's not a smoking gun, but it would be even more damaging to her precious reputation than the infidelity was. If she fights me on custody it will come out. I wonder how deep the rabbit hole goes. I'm afraid to find out.


----------



## GusPolinski

^ Holy Schnikes! ^


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> Been cleaning up and purging. Ran across a journal I had never seen. Like many of her journals there wasn't much written. But what I did find was alarming.
> 
> She was a chaperone on a ski trip with out church youth group in 2007. There was a youth from another group there that caught her eye. She had debated on how far she would have to go to get his "positive attention" and decided it was too risky at a Christian retreat.
> 
> Who is this woman? This goes back further and is deeper and darker than I ever imagined it could be.
> 
> It's not a smoking gun, but it would be even more damaging to her precious reputation than the infidelity was. If she fights me on custody it will come out. I wonder how deep the rabbit hole goes. I'm afraid to find out.



This beats any potential blame shifting card she might play. Basically your 'not your fault' signed certificate from the highest authority.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Acoa said:


> She was a chaperone on a ski trip with out church youth group in 2007. There was a youth from another group there that caught her eye. She had debated on how far she would have to go to get his "positive attention" and decided it was too risky at a Christian retreat.


Holy crap..... There are no words, I hope that's the worse thing you find.


----------



## aug

Acoa said:


> Been cleaning up and purging.* Ran across a journal I had never seen. *Like many of her journals there wasn't much written. But what I did find was alarming.
> 
> She was a chaperone on a ski trip with out church youth group in 2007. There was a youth from another group there that caught her eye. She had debated on how far she would have to go to get his "positive attention" and decided it was too risky at a Christian retreat.
> 
> Who is this woman? This goes back further and is deeper and darker than I ever imagined it could be.
> 
> It's not a smoking gun, but it would be even more damaging to her precious reputation than the infidelity was. If she fights me on custody it will come out. I wonder how deep the rabbit hole goes. I'm afraid to find out.



Hide the journal so she doesnt find it. Use it as evidence, if need be.


----------



## Acoa

aug said:


> Hide the journal so she doesnt find it. Use it as evidence, if need be.



Already done.


----------



## Turin74

Acoa, witty this discovery, at the moment, do you have any residual doubts you made the right decision (to D)?

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acoa

Turin74 said:


> Acoa, witty this discovery, at the moment, do you have any residual doubts you made the right decision (to D)?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_



Not a single doubt.


----------



## LongWalk

She cannot face you. And for that reason she may never return home. Tragic cowardice on her part.


----------



## Turin74

LongWalk said:


> She cannot face you. And for that reason she may never return home. Tragic cowardice on her part.


She probably realise she had nothing to say or offer... At least I can't imagine anything. Well, 2 months ago I could've never imagine anything like this anyway.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acoa

Turin74 said:


> 2 months ago I could've never imagine anything like this anyway.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_



Me either, my gut told me she was holding something back. I just figured it was related to Dday one. That she did have a PA with someone in that clique of HS friends. 

The truth of it is bizarre. The woman I thought I was married to was an illusion. The woman she tuned out to be is shocking.

She is still minimizing. Just this week she was saying that "this isn't her". It was just these 2 and only the past couple years. 

I think she will stick to that story. She doesn't know I found this journal . I'll keep that secret for now. Well , at least from her. My family knows. If she fights me on custody, she will craft a story around the 2 year thing and then I can pull this little gem out to show she is being less than truthful.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> She cannot face you. And for that reason she may never return home. Tragic cowardice on her part.



And good for me on many levels. I am making fast progress on detachment. Our home is a place of calmness and stability for the kids; and it is huge in my favor for custody should that fight wind up in court.

I suspect she has a dissociative personality. Not so severe that there are distinctly different personas (multiples ). But enough that she can compartmentalize behaviors in ways that are almost unexplainable. 

She has mentioned in the past that she has a darker "playful" side she calls Kate. It's written about in another one of her journals. I used to just think it was an overdeveloped fantasy, I can see now it was a lot more,


----------



## GusPolinski

aug said:


> Hide the journal so she doesnt find it. Use it as evidence, if need be.


*cough* Make copies!


----------



## Chaparral

This sounds like possible child abuse. How old were the "youths" at the ski trip?


----------



## Acoa

No mention of age for the one she was drooling over, but the youth from our church were ages 12 through 19.


----------



## Chaparral

If she put a name down this could be an even more powerful bargaining chip. In any event she was a predator in a school youth group.

You should talk to her counselors/doctors. Just do nor give up your sources at this point.

I would go through your home and accts with a fine tooth comb.


----------



## aug

Acoa said:


> And good for me on many levels. I am making fast progress on detachment. Our home is a place of calmness and stability for the kids; and it is huge in my favor for custody should that fight wind up in court.
> 
> *I suspect she has a dissociative personality. Not so severe that there are distinctly different personas (multiples ). But enough that she can compartmentalize behaviors in ways that are almost unexplainable. *
> 
> She has mentioned in the past that she has a darker "playful" side she calls Kate. It's written about in another one of her journals. I used to just think it was an overdeveloped fantasy, I can see now it was a lot more,



She's in theatre, right? This trait/ability comes in handy, one would think.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I agree keep digging, even if you find more hurtful truths. Sorry to be blunt, I hope it was centered around a young adult. Still wrong in this setting, but we are all dancing around what we want to say. If it was a man we'd be using the "R" & "M" words, precedded by "child" and some would be saying "OMG, call the cops."


----------



## LongWalk

She probably enjoyed sex with you and considered that fidelity. Her character is suited to polyamory. Yours is not.

Now she is investing energy in analysis of her downfall. She cannot share her true mental state with you because she is still concealing the number of affairs. So doing amounts to self harm. That is why she sought psychiatric in patient treatment.

Would be interesting to know if the doctor advised her to confess all.

Also, her affairs have a logic. She fvcked OMx because OMy failed to meet some need or created a new one

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Acoa

I'll be going through everything in the house. I'm starting with the main living space just so it's clean (she was boarder line hoarder). It's nice to see floors and be able to sit in furniture.


----------



## Acoa

Here is a transcript of that journal entry for those who want to try and analyze:

----------------------------------------------------------------

Jan 13, 2007

So many years and yet the same issues apply now as they did then.



I am currently at a ski week-end with the youth of our church. I am also reading a book this month about callings. I am in the process of refining what iwould like to focus on in my studies because although I have narrowed things down quite substantially, refinement still needs to occur in many ways. Maybe because I am in my late 30's certain hormones drive my thoguhts but there is something else driving these ideas in my haead and I am not so sure they are from "the dark side' but things that need to come out.



There isa youth here (not from our group) that I would call dangerousley attractive. Why dangerous? Well, he is the type of person (purely on looks & first impressions) that I would almost throw myself at (if I were his age) and risk a lot for his positive attention. Judging by the girl he was hanging out with I would never really have a chance unless I wal willing to give out a lot. Although, it can't totally be overloked that he is at a Christian retreat center.



This makes me wonder about my thoughts earlier this week on how sexuality & sprituality work in a person's psyche. I wonder why these thoughts have occured at this time and place in my life and what do they mean if they mean anything at all.



Sometimes I wonder if I would benefit going to therapy. I also tend to really over analyze some things that re just very basic in principal. I guess thats why it's good that I have friends that I can just share with an they can help me put things in perspective.



I just figure out what that kid has that drew my attention -- its the "wayne Campbell" look going on. THe things that seem the most attention grabbing are things that remind me of my early 20's. My styles may ahve changed a bit but my tastes in sexual attraction have not. Wow! that was interestint o realize!



I have already called ACOA twice today. I miss him a lot lately and it really kills me that I'm gone this week-end and next and then he's going to be gone for two weeks! I am really jealous of my time with him and I don't want to share time with him and I don't want to share it with anyone or anthing (computers included). How can it be that weare in our late 30's already? We have an almost teenager and yet I still often feel that I'm not that far removed from our teen years!



------------------------------------------------------------------



For those who may not know, "Wayne Campbell" is the lead character in Wayne's world. Basically a goofy burnout type. That's 'her type' and yes, that was me in my teens.


----------



## aug

Who's M_____?

What she wrote about the youth is normal, I would think. It goes off-base if she had acted on it.


----------



## LongWalk

The name in the last paragraph refers to you, yes? Edit it to replace M with Acoa.

I think what she has written is honest and introspective. With whom was she sharing thoughts about her sexual desires? If they were men in the theater or church, they were likely EA/PA partners.

This text demonstrates that she knew that there was a moral problem with sex outside of marriage and she fought the urge. Good for her (then). Later she caved.

Her evaluation of her sex ranking is interesting. Her cold analysis of what a woman must do to win attention, i.e., have sex rather than to just offer friendship.

Your WW is a thinking person who knew the difference between right and wrong.

If you are seeking closure and some explanation to accompany your divorce, when she does approach you, you should certainly say something like this:



> The adultery to which you admit to is not the whole truth about your relations with other men since we married. I know that more has occured than the two OM who have come up.
> 
> Since you will not talk about the others, why or how can believe anything you say?/QUOTE]


----------



## Acoa

Correct, M was me. Aug if you could edit your post I would appreciate it.


----------



## Ripper

How deep does this rabbit hole go?

I know you don't want to hear it and don't want to do it, but you should DNA the kids. Hopefully it just confirms what you already know and you can at least *believe* she was faithful right up until your youngest was born.


----------



## LongWalk

Yes, test DNA to protect yourself psychologically.

The diary entry must cause you enormous emotional confusion. The realization that she struggled with this but worried about propriety, rather than morality, puts your married life in the strangest light.

You were important to her but in a much smaller role than you thought. You filled some needs of hers but even had she not cheated, her restlessness would never have left her.

Without revealing your source, you can appear to have read her mind now. Pull on this thread and she may come unraveled.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Acoa

If the parentage of the kids starts to bug me, then I'll do the DNA test. The oldest is no doubt mine. I know to the day when she was conceived and she has many traits from my family. 

The younger two take after her family. The probability is they are mine. If they are not, it doesn't really matter to me anymore emotionally or legally. 

The benefit to me is small from DNA testing and the harm to them is huge. They are already grappling with the fact Mom cheated and has withdrawn from society due to embarrassment. I am the stable one they know will be there for them. I don't want them worried that I suspect they might not be mine.

In a year or two when the dust settles I'll get them checked. There is a DNA disorder that runs in my family, they will need to take a DNA test for that anyway, so I can just add to that.


----------



## Acoa

Crappy day today. Did some laundry and cleaned up the back porch (3 season Room). 

Kept running across some of her dirty clothes. The mind wanders off on certain items, who did she wear them for? Not that it matters, it's just a painful reminder. I'm stuffing everything I find into her dresser, and what doesn't fit into suitcases. 

The back porch is her homage to the theater. Props and scenery items from shows past. I flipped through her photo album and in it was a picture of her and OM. It was from 2011 at a theater party I didn't go to because I was out of town on business. So that PA goes back at least to July 2011, probably even earlier.

I ripped the picture in half and deposited it in a box with some of her crap.

There is so much in the house. So many reminders. It's going to be a long process to get it all packed away and cleaned up.


----------



## Lostinthought61

I say you have a fire sale and you burn it all.


----------



## Acoa

Xenote said:


> I say you have a fire sale and you burn it all.



I wish. My lawyer advised me to pack it all away nicely lest she come after me for more money because I destroyed her personal affects.


----------



## MattMatt

aug said:


> She's in theatre, right? This trait/ability comes in handy, one would think.


Not really. Can cause more problems than it solves.


----------



## MattMatt

That journal is pretty average "Gosh, if I was xx years younger..." stuff.


----------



## Acoa

MattMatt said:


> That journal is pretty average "Gosh, if I was xx years younger..." stuff.



Probably, but who knows. I wouldn't put anything past her at this point.


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> Kept running across some of her dirty clothes..
> 
> 
> The back porch is her homage to the theater. Props and scenery items from shows past.


That's what I call creative mess... just to lighten you up, hope worst for you is behind

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Chaparral

You should copy the picture and send it to the om's wife..........with the date outlined.


----------



## Acoa

Chaparral said:


> You should copy the picture and send it to the om's wife..........with the date outlined.



She is on the ball. She sent me a text letting me know she was sorry for the misery her H caused my family. She was upset at the disruption to the kids. They are also getting a D and she is going for his jugular.


----------



## manticore

Acoa said:


> She is on the ball. She sent me a text letting me know she was sorry for the misery her H caused my family. She was upset at the disruption to the kids. They are also getting a D and she is going for his jugular.


was this one the one who called you back sobbing or the mormon?


----------



## Acoa

manticore said:


> was this one the one who called you back sobbing or the mormon?



The crier. The Mormon FB messaged my wife that she was an evil home wrecker discarding people when she was done with them. 

Lolz


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Acoa said:


> The crier. The Mormon FB messaged my wife that she was an evil home wrecker discarding people when she was done with them.
> 
> Lolz


Bwahaha! Oh the irony. Or is that hypocrisy I smell?


----------



## manticore

Acoa said:


> The crier. The Mormon FB messaged my wife that she was an evil home wrecker discarding people when she was done with them.
> 
> Lolz


LOL, you should forward that message to his wife as evindence that he was involved with her and now is nagging because she ratted him out


----------



## Dyokemm

"LOL, you should forward that message to his wife as evindence that he was involved with her and now is nagging because she ratted him out"

Yep...I firmly believe in wrecking POS AP's in every way possible for their role in destroying other people's lives.

They should have emotional PTSD every time they think back to the A as they realize everything it cost them.

Of course, I think a WS should suffer the same fate and generally speaking say D should be the default option for a BS.


----------



## LongWalk

Acoa,

Very painful to have look at her stuff. Hope that the house itself is not a trigger. The sooner you ship all her stuff out the door, the better.

Continue to concentrate on your children, but find IRL people to talk with. Have you had a chance to sit compare notes with OMW over coffee? What do they say about the theater now? Were they also involved?


----------



## Acabado

What about your wife, man?
Any sign of acceptance of the end? Did she hint anything about coming back home? What kind of mindset you can guess about the immediate future?


----------



## LongWalk

He posted on the D thread. He met her with a psychiatric social worker who understood that begging and pleading would not move Acoa.

He did not explain any particulars.

Her cheating probably was not limited to these two. She probably experimented with ONSs first.

There may be danger of suicide. You must ask her family to be vigilant. Remind her of her parental responsibilities.
_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Acabado

LongWalk said:


> He posted on the D thread. He met her with a psychiatric social worker who understood that begging and pleading would not move Acoa.
> 
> He did not explain any particulars.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Thanks. I didn't venture for any other forum.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Acoa,
> 
> Very painful to have look at her stuff. Hope that the house itself is not a trigger. The sooner you ship all her stuff out the door, the better.
> 
> Continue to concentrate on your children, but find IRL people to talk with. Have you had a chance to sit compare notes with OMW over coffee? What do they say about the theater now? Were they also involved?



No, no follow on conversations with OMW. I've told her I'm available if she wants to talk, it's been over a week, I doubt she will contact me again. At this point I feel that if I contact her again it would be pestering.

Both OM and OMW were active in the theater. Interestingly OMW halted her involvement about a year ago as theater was stressing her out too much. I knew about that because STBXW made a big show of concern for her and hoped she was okay. Bought her cards and invited her out to lunch to chat a couple times. (I sh1t you not)


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Dude, I swear, sometimes I want you to stop posting about your wife. Every time you do, you aren't malicious, but it just gets worse. I mean that's an insidious act, to feign care for a woman whose husband you are screwing.


----------



## Acoa

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Dude, I swear, sometimes I want you to stop posting about your wife. Every time you do, you aren't malicious, but it just gets worse. I mean that's an insidious act, to feign care for a woman whose husband you are screwing.



And the strange part is I think she had genuine concern. I don't think she feigned her care for her. I think the compartmentalization was that complete.

But enough about her. Spent part of the day filling out the financial disclosure for the divorce. Has my anxiety amped up like I haven't felt in a long time. Heart is racing and I'm sure my BP is through the roof. Time to go cool off. Searching out all the documentation required is a royal PITA.


----------



## LongWalk

Compartmentalization is a funny word. It is some how inadequate to capture just how we are capable of holding on to incompatible thoughts.

People go to church and talk about the message of the sermon and how they want to get the moral lesson into their life, but later in the day they'll completely do just the opposite in their lives. They didn't set out to be hypocrites. It's just the way people are.

You seem to describe your STBXW's character flaws: an extrovert who lacks boundaries, wanting to have friendships within these collectives. She must be somewhat self important in a charming way. Her entire approach to socializing has blown up in her face. Her loss is not just you, her home, her marriage, but her way of living. She thought she was successful juggling it all. 

The hassle of divorcing will help you to detach. You'll be more and more pıssed at her for putting you in this position. You had better stuff to do with your time and money and now you have clean this mess.

The psychiatric evaluation must have deemed your STBXW at risk. Probably they did not share it with you. Who in her family can take care of her?


----------



## Acoa

She comes from a large connected family. Despite it all she will get support from them, they are family after all. 

I will continue the process of documenting our lives together by the financial trail of debts and assets. Soon enough it will be over. In the mean time I will try to stay healthy and sane. And take care of the kids. 

I'm trying to get her to spend more time with the kids. Right now it's only one night per week.


----------



## LongWalk

At some point you may be able to offer her a cordial co-parenting relationship. That should be her goal, rather then R.

My guess is that after divorce you will meet someone new and remarry.

Do you think your STBXW will be able to pull herself together. Will she flit from relationship to relationship or will she seek celibacy and solitude to stabilize herself?


----------



## Acoa

Only time will tell Longwalk.


----------



## Acabado

She will be OK I believe.
This checking herself is no more than another twist in her "play", the right one to run away and hide from the potential public embarrasement as the sh1t was about to hit the fan. That's all. Nothing serious. It's also the convenient scenario to finnaly divorce ACOA and being a poor victim in need of her family at a time.
Her way to a clean start.

Even I also pointed out she was about to loose her primary interest (the theater, the promiscuous social circle) I'm thinking now it's enterely possible she's back into it very soon. After all the big bang she feared didn't happen.


Hang in there man.


----------



## LongWalk

You may be right. Still, a person with no history of mental illness must tell the admitting physician that that they are a suicide risk or they will not be take in.

If someone feels that bad, they probably are pretty messed up. There is no reason to believe she is faking it.

I cannot imagine the transition from being a happy housewife, with an active social life and a couple secret lovers, to divorced cheater without a home as easy. Add in her failure as a parent and it is clear that she is in free fall.

Perhaps her chute will open and catch air.


----------



## Acoa

Who knows. She took the youngest to the movies tonight. Picked her up before I got home. She took her laptop with her and is back to posting on FB. 

Changed her profile pic to a quote "I may be afraid, but it's my turn to be brave" and her cover pic to "at least it's the first day of the rest of my life". Her status update is "Changes on the horizon, some good some not, life keeps on going either way."

So, sounds like she snapped out of trying to R with me mode. 

I need to take a few days off work and have a mini meltdown of my own. My adrenaline has been pumping for 2 weeks now, I need to shutdown for a while.


----------



## manticore

Acoa said:


> She took her laptop with her and is back to posting on FB.
> 
> Changed her profile pic to a quote "I may be afraid, but it's my turn to be brave" and her cover pic to "at least it's the first day of the rest of my life". Her status update is "Changes on the horizon, some good some not, life keeps on going either way."


so much for remorse, already posting in social media that was the tool used to send code with her OM, at I want to believe that she don't have the OMs in face book anymore, but I will not find it that amazing if she does, well man this just reforce your theory that she is a lost cause trying to manipulate you to now divorce her.

you are doing the right thing


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Acoa said:


> So, sounds like she snapped out of trying to R with me mode.


Or she was never in R mode and it was pure "self preservation and manipulation" mode part 2.


----------



## tom67

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Or she was never in R mode and it was pure "self preservation and manipulation" mode part 2.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
Sadly I think this also.


----------



## Acoa

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Or she was never in R mode and it was pure "self preservation and manipulation" mode part 2.



Entirely possible


----------



## GusPolinski

Take care, Acoa. Try to get some rest and recharge a bit.


----------



## tom67

You may want to carry a var with you when dealing with her.
Yes it's not for court it's cya if she calls the police.
Just a thought nothing more.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Acoa said:


> "Changes on the horizon, some good some not, life keeps on going either way."











*Yep. She sailing towards a new horizon.*

So it was all an act. Now there's a surprise.


----------



## LongWalk

Acoa,

It's a good thing that she made the post. The last thing your children need is an AWOL mom derelict of her duties. 

Facebook is the diary, PR tool, EA hook up site, etc. etc. of out times. No need to make a categorical judgment about her sincerity with regards to R. It is possible that she loves you as husband but is not deeply attracted to you. The affairs may have detached her from you emotionally to some degree, so now she has been forced to push that detachment further.

Whether or not she is remorseful or merely regretful matters to you naturally. However, you are divorcing her because that is the only course open to you. The level of disrespect is beyond tolerance. The casual manner in which she indulged herself is an affront. Your marriage died and you're mourning. She probably is, too.

Once your divorce is negotiated and your separation a fact, you will have opportunity enough to observe her behavior, although you may prefer to have nothing to do with her. If she is remorseful, she will not take solace beneath one of the OM or some new guy. Instead she will concentrate on restoring order to her life. That includes getting a job. If she pours herself into the theater and church so be it. It is not your concern at this point.

You will get over her with time. I am sorry for your pain. You were a decent guy, the sort many women would be happy to have a husband and she did not appreciate you properly. Her behavior is not uniquely evil. She is just another cheater, just another Nashville tune.

Time for some classical music. It is wise that you are taking time off from work. You may need to tell you boss what happening to take some of the pressure off.

Hang in there. Post as necessary.


----------



## Acoa

tom67 said:


> You may want to carry a var with you when dealing with her.
> 
> Yes it's not for court it's cya if she calls the police.
> 
> Just a thought nothing more.



Could be for court if needed. My state passed a one sided consent law.


----------



## LongWalk

You cell phone can be VAR. No need to shell out a lot of money.

She has the right to move home. Shame is preventing her. You are a stronger person than she is. Stay steady and she will likely be reasonable about D.


----------



## Acabado

As I suspected she's perfectly fine. More than ready and happy to start her new life.
Her alleged mental breakdown was just a mutis, a drama filled one becasue it's what she likes the most.
She was seeking at least since 2007, I suspect earlier (as her journal selftalk was about rejecting the notion of hooking up with a teenager , which in my mind means she was doing it for a while with more appropiate attention givers). She just got lazy and basically flaunted her scapades since 2011, since OP caught her two years ago she has been dragging him along but emotionaly divorced for a few years already and being even more cruel with her cheating to the point of forcing him socialize with her partners... until the latest confrontation gave her the oportunity for the mutis.


----------



## Acoa

Yes, definitely seems to be shaping up for her to play the victim that this was a mid life crisis and I never gave her a chance. 

I know better, as do a few close family members and our pastor. But to the great majority of "her people" she can play that role. I suspect that is what she had planned all along. 

I can use that to my advantage. She either plays nice in the D process or I expose far and wide the extent of her misdeeds. I have transcripts of her cyber sessions and copies of the letter from 2011 asking her to come clean now or we would be over. Her sisters would have a field day with that information.


----------



## WhiteRaven

Expose a little of those transcripts. See the 'real' her vilifying you.


----------



## LongWalk

Divorcing the actress will make you feel much better.

You will have a nicer woman in your life 6 or 7 months from now.


----------



## lordmayhem

I just read this thread for the first time last night. What a change from the initial post.

In the beginning, it was:

You were sure she was not cheating anymore
She was completely remorseful
It was "only" an EA

So I decided to skip to the end of the thread and find out you are divorcing, so it forced me to read through the whole thread. Wow. She never stopped cheating and it turned out to be multiple PAs and multiple OM. 

Yet another WS who went exactly by the cheater script. This is so very very common here and other forums. Everyone's marital situation may be different, but cheater behavior is generally consistent. That's why we call it the cheater script/handbook. Its generally pretty predictable.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> You will have a nicer woman in your life 6 or 7 months from now.



No thanks. Maybe 6 or 7 years. I got married young (21) and started dating her when I was 17. I'm going to learn how to be single before I jump into another relationship.


----------



## Ripper

Finding someone else can jump start the recovery process, but I know plenty of guys that went the "no more women" route and they are doing great.

Just try not to turn into this guy.


----------



## lordmayhem

Ripper said:


> Finding someone else can jump start the recovery process, but I know plenty of guys that went the "no more women" route and they are doing great.


But you have to be careful, because you're still in a vulnerable state right after a traumatic event like this. After I divorced my ex-wife for cheating on me, I started dating, then fell in love right away and married the rebound girl. It worked out for years, but she ended up cheating on me too. So its a gamble.


----------



## Dyokemm

"Yes, definitely seems to be shaping up for her to play the victim that this was a mid life crisis and I never gave her a chance."

Except the 2 years after you caught her in what you thought was the EA/cybersex and asked her to come clean.

I guess in her mind that's not enough time.


----------



## Acoa

Dyokemm said:


> "Yes, definitely seems to be shaping up for her to play the victim that this was a mid life crisis and I never gave her a chance."
> 
> Except the 2 years after you caught her in what you thought was the EA/cybersex and asked her to come clean.
> 
> I guess in her mind that's not enough time.



Oh, she is dead wrong and knows it. Its just a new role in her drama she is trying on.


----------



## Dyokemm

"Oh, she is dead wrong and knows it. Its just a new role in her drama she is trying on."

Tell her this is real life, not the f*cking theater, and to stop playing games since this going to have lasting impacts on her kids if this gets unnecessarily messy.


----------



## WhiteRaven

Acoa said:


> Oh, she is dead wrong and knows it. Its just a new role in her drama she is trying on.


We expect our WSs to be remorseful. Sad to say, remorse can't buy even a hotdog. 

You are doing good Acoa. Sorry for your pain, not for the demise of your marriage.


----------



## LongWalk

Acoa said:


> Yes, definitely seems to be shaping up for her to play the victim that this was a mid life crisis and I never gave her a chance.
> 
> I know better, as do a few close family members and our pastor. But to the great majority of "her people" she can play that role. I suspect that is what she had planned all along.
> 
> I can use that to my advantage. She either plays nice in the D process or I expose far and wide the extent of her misdeeds. I have transcripts of her cyber sessions and copies of the letter from 2011 asking her to come clean now or we would be over. Her sisters would have a field day with that information.


Some WW can legitimately claim the mid life crisis defense. The selfish genes are set up for women to get bored with their old mate, i.e., seek new genes for the last stretch of fertility. One can image in pre history hunter gathering settings older male got a younger female and had a run. Several of their infants died, as was common, and now even he at 35 was physically in decline. In those times he was an old man.

That woman would be making a bet that by having a younger man who was going to be successful in the hunt her offspring would survive. Thus, evolutionary forces motivated her emotional change (mid life crisis).

Your wife was playing the field much earlier. You read her diary. It was earlier and she was not fighting her urges.

re: the future
Acoa, I did not mean to suggest that would have jump into something new. But I don't think you have to look forward to celibacy and loneliness.

re: squeezing your wife in divorce
The state and its family courts have certain ideas about just division of community property. Those ideas may be immoral. I see no reason to have qualms about securing better terms than the norms. Let your stbxw struggle as part of the consequence of her immorality.

To me punishment is due because her deception was extended, brazen and callous. Her "sorry" may not yet include any deep thought of your suffering. But as she suffers, you may calmly mention that her betrayal once caused you great pain and still does but that it is fading. No one had ever hurt you like that. Her position in your life was being eliminated so that she would not have the ability to casually hurt you any longer. 

Your wife, as an artist, has some intellectual pretensions. You should see some real remorse from her. If you do not, then you will also know that she will never be a truly good mother.


----------



## Acoa

No, no remorse. More like regret that she got caught. Regret that she hurt me enough to dump her. Regret that the gravy train is leaving the station without her. 

I feel bad for our kids. She may not be a good woman, but she is their mom. I hope she doesn't put them in the middle. I know I am not.


----------



## harrybrown

I hope that she gives you one thing, a nice divorce, if there can be such a thing.

Sorry for your pain and having to go thru a long false R.

I do hope someday she does become remorseful and realizes that life is not like actors in a play.


----------



## LongWalk

Would you say that your STBXW has a happy go lucky personality and that this attracted you to her? 

That same easiness of heart is what allowed her to be so casual in her decision to cheat. It will also help her to get over your decision to divorce her. If she thought that you might relent, then she might do some hard thinking.

A deeper character would try harder, at least for a period of time.

Is she a more superficial person than you once deemed her to be?

I would try like all heck to get out of paying her alimony. Do you think she will care one iota for your regard now that divorce is in he cards?

Do you have a new view of no fault divorce? Is this system that lets cheaters escape fundamentally rotten?

It will be interesting if your wife apologizes for subjecting your sons to this negative experience. Hopefully, she will not fob off the blame on to you.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Would you say that your STBXW has a happy go lucky personality and that this attracted you to her?


She chased me. I wasn't all that interested in being in a committed relationship, but she was very persistant. Sort of grew on me. I figured if she was trying that hard she must have seen something in me she liked. And it wasn't money at the time. Didn't have a pot to piss in. But I did have the "wayne campbell" attractiveness. In hind sight I'm sure that's what had her throwing herself at me. 



LongWalk said:


> Is she a more superficial person than you once deemed her to be?


Superficial would be the wrong word. Guarded would be better. She runs pretty deep, she just doesn't share her true self. Well, not in a long time. There was a point, probably the first 10 years of our relationship we really could tell each other anything. Nothing was too weird, perverted or offensive. But post kids it became normal for us to be more reserved and keep the conversations clean. Apparantly now that they are older and moving on, she wanted to reclaim that adventure, only she didn't think to come back to me for it.


LongWalk said:


> I would try like all heck to get out of paying her alimony. Do you think she will care one iota for your regard now that divorce is in he cards?


We have been married too long and I've made 95% of the money over the course of our marriage. There is no way I'm getting out of this without paying alimony. I can only hope to keep it from being permenant by pointing out she has the capability of supporting herself, it just wasn't required while we were married. If I'm lucky I can have it revisited in 3 years and either dramatically reduced or eliminated.


LongWalk said:


> Do you have a new view of no fault divorce? Is this system that lets cheaters escape fundamentally rotten?


No fault is a path for those who want to 'save face' or want to avoid futher confrontation. Its good when there is no evidence of fault and you want the divorce to go through. 
The fact that money is pretty much calculated based on a formula and fault doesn't impact the division of assets is crappy, but I guess that's why it is designed the way it is. Otherwise court would be an all out battle of trying to make the other spouse to be the vilian. I don't think it's fundamentally rotten. Perhaps a bit lazy, but not rotten.


LongWalk said:


> It will be interesting if your wife apologizes for subjecting your sons to this negative experience. Hopefully, she will not fob off the blame on to you.


I have one son, the oldest and youngest are girls with my son in the middle (poor kid).

So far she seems to be accepting this as the natural consequence of her actions. We talked tonight about the schedule for her and the kids this week. I'm going to vacate the house on Tuesday and Thursday of this week. She will make dinner for the kids and pack up some of her things and get them out of the house.


----------



## lordmayhem

Acoa said:


> Otherwise court would be an all out battle of trying to make the other spouse to be the vilian. I don't think it's fundamentally rotten. Perhaps a bit lazy, but not rotten.


At last, someone who knows partially why we have the no fault system, not that I like it anymore than anyone else. 

In order to prove fault in the absence of admission of fault by either party, requires evidence to be submitted, and a trial. Every jurisdiction has a limited number of courtrooms, judges, and hours in each week (court time). All this takes taxpayer money. And more money is assigned to criminal court cases than civil court cases. 

Imagine trying to prove fault in a divorce case, with each spouse bringing in their evidence for a judge to decide which party is at fault. Some cases may be cut and dry, but many will take longer trials. The backlog of divorce cases would be enormous. In fact, it would literally take years for your case to come up and have your divorce. It isn't lazy, it simply isn't practical or feasible.


----------



## LongWalk

I agree with you LM. The practical aspects make divorce fault divorce trials an onerous burden on the state. Adultery is simply not a crime in the eyes of most, regardless how hurtful it is.

No fault means that marriage vows have no legal weight. As a legal contract marriage guarantees almost nothing: presumed paternity and the right to live in a common home... inheritance.

If a spouse leaves a common home and rents an apartment, the left behind spouse has no right to move into it, even if the money for the apartment is shared. 

Acoa, 

You are have a very good measure of what is going on. Your WW knows she is the loser in this. Her own fault. As you point out, she could have taken her desire for eros and invested it in your marriage. Even if she had tried to convince you to swing, that would have at least treated you as an equal, rather than a dupe.


----------



## Acoa

I don't think she could have convinced me to swing. I'm as horny as the next dude. One of the ways I've always made sure I didn't get myself into trouble with the opposite sex was to make sure I never put myself in a position where it would be a problem. 

I travelled a lot for business over the years, it would have been real easy to hook up on the road. But I made sure I was never alone with a female coworker and that if there was drinking involved in an after hours outing I paired up with one of my male co-workers to be a wing man and keep the preditors at bay. 

I came close to cheating once in my life. It was an especially tempting moment. I had come in the day before a training class I was to conduct and the female sales manager for that territory was also checked into the hotel. She had left me a note that she had the materials for the class with her and when I was ready to set up the room for the meeting I should call her. 

It was a little before noon, I wasn't able to get an early check in, so I called her room to see if she could meet me in the meeting room to start getting set up. She said she was going to need a couple more hours, but if I wanted I could come get the stuff. I went to her room and she opened the door and it was her and one of her girlfriends who lived in the area. Both in bathrobes. She asked if I wanted to stay and keep them company. /drool

I kept my wits about me and thanked her for the offer, but just to let me have the materials and I went down and set up alone. I'm glad I resisted that. Not so much now for my marriage, but for my career. Turns out she was on a mission to bed every man in the company, then try to claim sexual harrasment. My testimony against her cost her any chance at a case as it was clear she was trying to entrap men. SHe had video of her and that friend taken covertly with several other guys at the company. Wierd sh1t. 

Needless to say, I never went to another woman's room to pick up or drop off anything. From that day on, it was, "why don't we meet in the lobby."


----------



## LongWalk

Good story about the temptation. You never told your STBX about it. You could now, haha.

Actually regarding divorce and R, there is a third path. I don't think it's for you but I shall outline it nonetheless.

Your STBXW claims that she wants to R and grow old together. Really?

If you do meet her to discuss D, you might ask her is she is serious about this. She will claim it vehemently, fervently. You may reply that you are determined to D. However, if she agrees to a D that reduces her alimony significantly under what the mediator proposes. Say, for argument's sake 1/2 of what mediation would offer. You might even add 5 percent of your 401k.

In return for this reduction, you would agree to meet her for dates periodically whether these date would lead to friendship, better co-parenting or romance, you will not promise. However, you would make the effort for a year. You could, if you both were amenable, have sex.

You, in contrast, would not commit to monogamy. You would be free to date. She would not. If she saw others, the arrangement would be cancelled or voided. She would have to grant access to her phone and computer. She should provide a log about her activities.

She might be anxious to know how likely reconciliation would be in return for this sacrifice. You could reply that you made no promise or prediction. You did, however, want to know for yourself what R meant to her and this was a concrete way to measure her willingness to make a sacrifice and feel some sort of discomfort, though it would not compare to your reading messages about how she liked to feel cum inside her.

As I prefaced this, I do not think it is something you will jump for because you want to put this behind you and lead a healthier life. Still, it is good to know that there is divorce and divorce.

Is your wife a bad person? If one goes by actions, yes she is. She has hurt your children, you and herself. If she now feeling sorry for herself, your children and you in that order, it would be good to point out that her character needs work.

She dieted, she worked out. The theater was her existential playground. The answer to her musings about the meaning of life was friendship with OM and others at the expense of efforts she could have made to better your relationship and care for your children.

You should warn her for your children's sake that she needs to really do some self examination.

Your children are too old to buy a crock of self justifying or self pity BS from mom.


----------



## walkedon22

In the same boat. Mine has hurt me over and over again. Lying just gets easier to him. You have learned her lying habits? Watch them closely. It is sad to say, but I know mine's every move. They only learn to get better at it. I suppose out there are some who truly stop and realize what they've done. Personally, me being a Christian, I believe that it takes a true conviction for someone to be trustworthy again. I have you in my prayers because I know of your pain. Does it get any easier? Not for me.


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## Acoa

LongWalk I don't intend to give her another chance. She lied too well for too long. I don't see us ever having sex again under any conditions. The mind movies would play and it just wouldn't be enjoyable for me. 

I am hurt to the core and trying to keep an eye on her would hinder my recovery. 


I'll deal with the alimony, small price to pay for piece of mind.


----------



## Acoa

walkedon22 said:


> In the same boat. Mine has hurt me over and over again. Lying just gets easier to him. You have learned her lying habits? Watch them closely. It is sad to say, but I know mine's every move. They only learn to get better at it. I suppose out there are some who truly stop and realize what they've done. Personally, me being a Christian, I believe that it takes a true conviction for someone to be trustworthy again. I have you in my prayers because I know of your pain. Does it get any easier? Not for me.



Sorry to hear it hasn't for better for you. I agree, they get good at the lies. That's the main reason I won't get back with her. 

I believe in Christ's command to love one another, and I can honestly say I still love her and want what's best for her. But what's best for her is to be apart from me. If we tried to work it out again I would become an *******, I can see it. She may even put up with that for a while. She would deserve the scrutiny and questioning, but I'd never let my guard down and that is no way to live. More importantly it would give her a chance to hurt me again, and that would be foolish as she has proven how capable of that she is. It's time to believe not what she says, but her actions.


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> LongWalk I don't intend to give her another chance. She lied too well for too long. I don't see us ever having sex again under any conditions. The mind movies would play and it just wouldn't be enjoyable for me.
> 
> I am hurt to the core and trying to keep an eye on her would hinder my recovery.
> 
> 
> I'll deal with the alimony, small price to pay for piece of mind.





Acoa said:


> Sorry to hear it hasn't for better for you. I agree, they get good at the lies. That's the main reason I won't get back with her.
> 
> I believe in Christ's command to love one another, and I can honestly say I still love her and want what's best for her. But what's best for her is to be apart from me. If we tried to work it out again I would become an *******, I can see it. She may even put up with that for a while. She would deserve the scrutiny and questioning, but I'd never let my guard down and that is no way to live. More importantly it would give her a chance to hurt me again, and that would be foolish as she has proven how capable of that she is. It's time to believe not what she says, but her actions.


And this, people, is *decisiveness*. Awesome.

Seriously, I'm going to learn how to bottle this sh*t, and I'm going to make a *F*CKING FORTUNE*.


----------



## LongWalk

I didn't think you would consider it, but it is good to review the options. Rejecting them makes you stronger.

Your wife has enjoyed her game. It will take time for the consequences to become apparent to her. Eventually she will be happy if you just talk to her. But it may take two or three years before you become indifferent.

It will be horrible if she continues volunteer at the theater while living a good life on alimony.


----------



## jld

Acoa said:


> Sorry to hear it hasn't for better for you. I agree, they get good at the lies. That's the main reason I won't get back with her.
> 
> I believe in Christ's command to love one another, and I can honestly say I still love her and want what's best for her.* But what's best for her is to be apart from me. If we tried to work it out again I would become an *******, I can see it. She may even put up with that for a while. She would deserve the scrutiny and questioning, but I'd never let my guard down and that is no way to live. *More importantly it would give her a chance to hurt me again, and that would be foolish as she has proven how capable of that she is. It's time to believe not what she says, but her actions.


If you ever have to give her a direct response on this, the bolded would be excellent. Just add, "for either of us," at the end.


----------



## Acoa

Her old habits will die hard. She is at the house now for visitation and dinner with the kids. She asked if it was okay for her to come over early to pack up some of her things. I said sure and let her know where she could find some boxes. I was just checking FB and she had been posting fairly consistantly over the past couple of hours. Oh yeah, all the kids are home. So, instead of interacting with the kids she is sitting on the computer posting to FB. /sigh

She is visiting our wifi connection as much as the kids. Yeah, don't think spousal maintenance will last very long with this one. 

Now, should I be mean and change the wifi password before her next visit? Meh, she would just make the kids tell her what it is. 

I guess I'll let it slide. Her visitation, she can waste it if she wants.


----------



## tom67

Acoa said:


> Her old habits will die hard. She is at the house now for visitation and dinner with the kids. She asked if it was okay for her to come over early to pack up some of her things. I said sure and let her know where she could find some boxes. I was just checking FB and she had been posting fairly consistantly over the past couple of hours. Oh yeah, all the kids are home. So, instead of interacting with the kids she is sitting on the computer posting to FB. /sigh
> 
> She is visiting our wifi connection as much as the kids. Yeah, don't think spousal maintenance will last very long with this one.
> 
> Now, should I be mean and change the wifi password before her next visit? Meh, she would just make the kids tell her what it is.
> 
> I guess I'll let it slide. Her visitation, she can waste it if she wants.


Wow:slap::slap:


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> Now, should I be mean and change the wifi password before her next visit? Meh, she would just make the kids tell her what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Change the password, don't tell it to kids, just enter it directly in to wifi settings on their phones and laptops. And if certain individual is not happy: well, you don't want somebody snooping your traffic while you're dealing with legal aspects?

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## GusPolinski

Turin74 said:


> Change the password, don't tell it to kids, just enter it directly in to wifi settings on their phones and laptops. And if certain individual is not happy: *well, you don't want somebody snooping your traffic while you're dealing with legal aspects?*
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


^This is what I'd be most concerned about.

Honestly, I'd probably have taken the AC adapter for the modem and/or router w/ me before leaving.


----------



## Acoa

Yeah, there is no internet at her grandparents. Her Dad won't let her on his computer, or more accurately she would probably be afraid of a confrontation with him if she tried. So, I think her only access is when she comes back into the house for visitations. 

On the brightside, the flavors of her postings are mainly on detachment and moving on. #3cheersforsmallvictories


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## WhiteRaven

Acoa said:


> Yeah, there is no internet at her grandparents. Her Dad won't let her on his computer, or more accurately she would probably be afraid of a confrontation with him if she tried. So, I think her only access is when she comes back into the house for visitations.
> 
> On the brightside, the flavors of her postings are mainly on detachment and moving on. #3cheersforsmallvictories


Why don't you post the real reasons for your impending D on fb?


----------



## GusPolinski

WhiteRaven said:


> Why don't you post the real reasons for your impending D on fb?


This is one of the problems that I have w/ FB. Far too many people are absolutely obsessed w/ posting vague, open-ended half-truths (along w/ all of the cute little maxims and memes to support them) about their lives for all to see, and they do this because they *crave* the attention and support that it will bring to them. Invariably, at least a few people will either comment or PM w/ their expressions of pseudo-concern, asking for details regarding what happened, etc. Honestly, I think it's mostly voyeurism that drives these types of responses.

Someone close to me is currently separated from his wife, and (IMO) they'll likely wind up divorcing. Since this latest separation, he's all over FB, and it really seems like he's just waging an all-out PR campaign. I'd love nothing more than to openly call him out on his bullsh*t, but he unfriended me a while back (I can see his posts but can't comment on him). Heh, that might be why.


----------



## WhiteRaven

I recently helped a guy with a fb post that was deleted after a week -

Our marriage is ending. Everyone is free to discuss and criticize my failures in our marriage. But do give a thought that the marriage was irreparable the moment my wife decided to flout our marriage vows and have an A. People take sides. It's natural. You are entitled to your own opinions. I've hurt enough by the end of what I have considered my world for the last 12 years to care for others' opinions. She found her happiness in the arms of another man. Me and my kids paid for her happiness with our tears. 

All I request is be kind enough to delete any pictures you have of us. I'd help me and my kids to move on.


----------



## GusPolinski

WhiteRaven said:


> I recently helped a guy with a fb post that was deleted after a week -
> 
> Our marriage is ending. Everyone is free to discuss and criticize my failures in our marriage. But do give a thought that the marriage was irreparable the moment my wife decided to flout our marriage vows and have an A. People take sides. It's natural. You are entitled to your own opinions. I've hurt enough by the end of what I have considered my world for the last 12 years to care for others' opinions. She found her happiness in the arms of another man. Me and my kids paid for her happiness with our tears.
> 
> All I request is be kind enough to delete any pictures you have of us. I'd help me and my kids to move on.


Was this the guy that went down on an escort (eww) and then gave his wife a big, wet kiss before handing her divorce papers?


----------



## LongWalk

Acoa said:


> Her old habits will die hard. She is at the house now for visitation and dinner with the kids. She asked if it was okay for her to come over early to pack up some of her things. I said sure and let her know where she could find some boxes. I was just checking FB and she had been posting fairly consistantly over the past couple of hours. Oh yeah, all the kids are home. So, instead of interacting with the kids she is sitting on the computer posting to FB. /sigh
> 
> She is visiting our wifi connection as much as the kids. Yeah, don't think spousal maintenance will last very long with this one.
> 
> Now, should I be mean and change the wifi password before her next visit? Meh, she would just make the kids tell her what it is.
> 
> I guess I'll let it slide. Her visitation, she can waste it if she wants.


Your wife turns out to be a more superficial person. She is also cowardly. Facing your kids is not easy. They are all teenagers who are conscious of sexuality but will not feel comfortable thinking about mom as a sexual person who made mistakes that changed their lives because she wanted sex outside of marriage. If she talks about it in terms of emotional needs, they will ask her why she could not get those needs met through you. She has no good answer.

As to your wife's detachment. Well, she is skipping the grieving. The empathy she should be showing towards you has yet to ripple the surface. That will make moving on easier for you.

Your wife's willingness to be the one to move out shows that she knows she is morally bankrupt.


----------



## WhiteRaven

GusPolinski said:


> Was this the guy that went down on an escort (eww) and then gave his wife a big, wet kiss before handing her divorce papers?


No. A neighbor. Got 2 girls - 8 and 5. Something like JBird situation. Thank god the OM isn't an addict. Sad part - she doesn't wanna talk to the girls also.


----------



## Acoa

The only relationship info I put on FB is my relationship status. I think what she is doing is tacky and weak. I'm not going to participate in that.


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> The only relationship info I put on FB is my relationship status. I think what she is doing is tacky and weak. I'm not going to participate in that.


Understandable, and I _mostly_ agree. I'd have to say something, though I'd do my best to keep it as PG as possible. Maybe something like...

"Dear Friends and Family,

It is understandable that, due to some recent postings that you may have seen, there may be those among you who may have questions or concerns about the current status of my marriage. First, thank you for your concern and support.

Now, allow me to clear the air a bit... Yes, Mrs. Acoa and I are in the process of divorce.

Now, let me address any concerns that you may have... I am OK. The children are OK. Mrs. Acoa is OK. And, while this certainly isn't an ideal situation, overall I'd say that we're all adjusting to our "new normal".

I'm willing to answer any dignified questions that you may have, but via PM *only*. Also, let me say this... If you're hoping to get the "inside scoop" on any "dirt", please just do everyone a favor and keep scrolling. Then call your cable or satellite provider and subscribe to the "Investigative Discovery" channel.

Again, thank you for your concern and support."


----------



## WhiteRaven

GusPolinski said:


> Understandable, and I _mostly_ agree. I'd have to say something, though I'd do my best to keep it as PG as possible. Maybe something like...
> 
> "Dear Friends and Family,
> 
> It is understandable that, due to some recent postings that you may have seen, there may be those among you who may have questions or concerns about the current status of my marriage. Allow me to first clear the air a bit...
> 
> Yes, Mrs. Acoa and I are in the process of divorce.
> 
> Now, let me address any concerns that you may have...
> 
> I am OK. The children are OK. Mrs. Acoa is OK. And, while this certainly isn't an ideal situation, overall I'd say that we're all adjusting to our "new normal".
> 
> I'm willing to answer any dignified questions that you may have, but only via PM. Also, let me say this... If what you're hoping for is to dig up any "dirt", do everyone a favor and just keep scrolling. If that's what you're looking for, call your cable or satellite provider and subscribe to the "Investigative Discovery" channel instead.
> 
> Again, thank you for your concern and support."


It should be made a sticky.


----------



## lordmayhem

Acoa said:


> I guess I'll let it slide. Her visitation, she can waste it if she wants.


:iagree:

This. She can waste it if she wants. You're not letting it slide, you're just letting her dig her own hole with the kids. They aren't stupid, and see everything. They can see that all she does for visitation his jump on the computer and ignoring them.


----------



## Squeakr

Just block the mac address from her computer she uses, or put a timed setting ion the router so that it shuts off during her visitations. You have no obligation to provide her internet when she is there. Although I like the "taking the AC adaptor idea." I just put controls on my router to block access for my WW on all her devices (she still has her iPhone so she doesn't have complete lack of access, as she pays for that).


----------



## GusPolinski

Squeakr said:


> Just block the mac address from her computer she uses, or put a timed setting ion the router so that it shuts off during her visitations. You have no obligation to provide her internet when she is there. Although I like the "taking the AC adaptor idea." I just put controls on my router to block access for my WW on all her devices (she still has her iPhone so she doesn't have complete lack of access, as she pays for that).


LOL. I've done stuff like this to friends at LAN parties.


----------



## Acoa

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This. She can waste it if she wants. You're not letting it slide, you're just letting her dig her own hole with the kids. They aren't stupid, and see everything. They can see that all she does for visitation his jump on the computer and ignoring them.


She left her computer at the house when she left. Changed the password, so, she is starting to close the book on me. She hasn't changed her FB password yet. Probably not too long until she does that. 

She took the oldest out to lunch. So, at least she is interacting with them.

Youngest had her therapy appointment. Therapist suggest she fnd something to do over the summer. The therapist had remembered that she did a theater camp last summer and asked about that. Youngest's mood got really dark and she just said, "I don't want anything to do with that place." 

I never mentioned anything about it having to do with theater people. Goes to show the kids no more than you think they do. Odd feeling though. I was both horrified that she knew enough details to be angry at the theater, and proud that she had my back. Just thinking about it makes me want to cry. She shouldn't have to deal with those emotions. STBXW set up the conditions to put our daughter in this position. I don't think she even realizes the pain she is inflicting.


----------



## lordmayhem

I told you the children know more than you realize. They live in the same house, they see and hear everything. People forget we are all like that when we were kids. I really don't understand how some people think the children are completely oblivious to the situation. Some say "I won't tell the kids". Sorry buddy, but the kids already know more than you realize. They hear all the side comments, the arguments, etc. They talk with each other.

And now you see that the *theater triggers your daughter*. Theater camp after what just happened? What the hell was therapist thinking? Is he/she and idiot? How about a regular fun camp, something that doesn't trigger memories about how her family is being destroyed, something else that will get her mind off the situation?


----------



## WhiteRaven

lordmayhem said:


> I told you the children know more than you realize.


:iagree:

Me and a late friend of mine whose paternity was in question eavesdropped to scrounge info. We made our own theories, some were pretty horrifying and unrealistic. 

Better sit down with the kids and give them the bare basics. They do deserve it.


----------



## Acoa

lordmayhem said:


> And now you see that the *theater triggers your daughter*. Theater camp after what just happened? What the hell was therapist thinking? Is he/she and idiot? How about a regular fun camp, something that doesn't trigger memories about how her family is being destroyed, something else that will get her mind off the situation?


The therapist didn't know it had anything to do with the theater until she triggered. She moved passed that suggestion really quickly and said maybe something with church or a sport. She is a good therapist, just didn't have the background info.

I think daughter is going to need a push to get involved in something. Left to her own she will probably just sit in the house, watch TV and play video games. But I'll give her some time to review some options and think about it before I push her on it.


----------



## Acoa

WhiteRaven said:


> Better sit down with the kids and give them the bare basics. They do deserve it.


There is state mandated course I want to take before I open up too much. I've told them the basics (we are divorcing, it's because of infidelity, and I plan to stay in the house with them). 

I don't want to get into details about STBXW's affairs. I don't see how that benifits them at all. And I don't want to be accused of trying to sabatoge wife's relationship with the kids. 

If wife tries to make me the bad guy with them, I will bury her. And based on how protective the kids are of me right now, I don't think that's even a possibility.


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> There is state mandated course I want to take before I open up too much. *I've told them the basics (we are divorcing, it's because of infidelity, and I plan to stay in the house with them). *
> 
> *I don't want to get into details about STBXW's affairs. I don't see how that benifits them at all. And I don't want to be accused of trying to sabatoge wife's relationship with the kids. *
> 
> If wife tries to make me the bad guy with them, I will bury her. And based on how protective the kids are of me right now, I don't think that's even a possibility.


You're doing great, Dad! Keep it up!


----------



## LongWalk

> If wife tries to make me the bad guy with them, I will bury her. And based on how protective the kids are of me right now, I don't think that's even a possibility.


Just two of the emails from OM with sexual banter are enough to completely humiliate her. Your STBX never saw herself as a bad person. In her eyes she had extra love to give. There was enough to go round for you and OM. In her mind the affairs strengthened your marriage because they made her a happier and better spouse.

But the incompatibility of her moral system became apparent to you when she saw the dark look on your face. She ran away, vacating her own home.

Given the place the theater had in your family life, your children naturally put two and two together. They may even realize who one of the OMs is because of the collaboration. They can read the Facebook posts and guess.

I think you are wise to keep your anger under control. Not drawing your children into judging their mother relieves them of an unpleasant choice. They are on your side anyway, although they may be worried about her mental health.

Idle summer is not good. Get your daughter into sports, art or music. Maybe guitar lessons and rock climbing? Sailing? There are sports for non jocks.

The day that your wife starts working in something that is appropriate, she may be able to regain your children's respect.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Just two of the emails from OM with sexual banter are enough to completely humiliate her. Your STBX never saw herself as a bad person. In her eyes she had extra love to give. There was enough to go round for you and OM. In her mind the affairs strengthened your marriage because they made her a happier and better spouse.
> 
> But the incompatibility of her moral system became apparent to you when she saw the dark look on your face. She ran away, vacating her own home.


Not sure what's going through her head. She is medicated now too. So, sort of a zombie really. I used to wonder and worry. Now I just wonder. Detaching is going well. Even found a girl that is fun to chat with in an online divorce support group. Luckily she lives far away, or I'd probably go do something dumb. 



LongWalk said:


> Given the place the theater had in your family life, your children naturally put two and two together. They may even realize who one of the OMs is because of the collaboration. They can read the Facebook posts and guess.
> 
> I think you are wise to keep your anger under control. Not drawing your children into judging their mother relieves them of an unpleasant choice. They are on your side anyway, although they may be worried about her mental health.


Thanks, I've got their backs and they have mine. I don't speak of ill of her and wont to them. I was 10 when my parents divorced and my Mom set a good example for me in that department. I didn't really understand or appreciate it until I was much older. But now I look back on how she handled that and have a ton of respect for it (and her).




LongWalk said:


> Idle summer is not good. Get your daughter into sports, art or music. Maybe guitar lessons and rock climbing? Sailing? There are sports for non jocks.


She has a family reunion on the wife's side 2nd week of July, then we are sending her down to Florida with my brother's youngest (her favorite cousin) for 10 days. So, she should have a good time. Marching band camp starts in early August. So, thats only 2 weeks in June and 2 weeks in July where she will be 'idle'. I may take a few days here and there and we can do some staycation activities.



LongWalk said:


> The day that your wife starts working in something that is appropriate, she may be able to regain your children's respect.


They are pretty easygoing kids, and she is mom. As long as she doesn't wallow in self pity, they will adjust and be able to have a relationship with her. She is going to start coming over twice a week now to spend time with them. That will give her more time with them (or my wifi, that reminds me I need to update the password tonight).


----------



## LongWalk

Maybe they need to play a board game together.

Pills are cheap. Talk therapy expensive. Your wife needs the latter. Not your responsibility. 

What instrument does your daughter play. You play the clarinet if I remember correctly, or is that someone else?


----------



## Acoa

No, you got it right. I play clarinet. She plays the bassoon and occasionally the sax (for marching band).


----------



## LongWalk

Music can be good escape for people in trouble.

Hope you can get her outside exercising. I succeeded in getting D19in sports. D16 is reluctant, but starting to run and go to the gym from time to time.

Have you ended all joint accounts? Or rather have you limited the amount of money she now has access to? Obviously, you cannot cut off all her funding, but being put on allowance during the transition will be a major shock to her.

Her thinking is probably going in circles. It's a good thing she had psychiatric care. She knew reality was going to smack her hard.

You had warned her after Dday 1 that lying and cheating meant the end. She knew you were not BS'ing her and yet she followed the path to destruction.

You are a kind person and it is going to hard for you to see her suffering. And even though you want to spare your children the misery of having a zombie mom, she deserves it. If your children were younger, you'd be forced to co-parent but your youngest is high school so that a relatively short time.

Your wife will not be able to pay for their college education, so her parental authority will take a big hit. Kicked off the team for cheating.


----------



## Chuck71

Acoa........ I can not express my sympathy for you in words

my first thread and yours started around the same time, can't 

believe I missed yours until now. Some people live for drama

and the rush of attention. Actors and politicians, to me, are 

one in the same. She should like collecting things, materials,

so they can be used to put herself in a better light. Somewhere

in her desire to cheat, her alter ego took on a persona of who she

"wished she could be." The adventurous, daring, dashing debutante

who lives by her own rules. Good bet she is a fan of Mae West. It

was just a fantasy but somewhere, the lines of fantasy and reality 

became blurred. SAHM or the glamorous actress..... decisions....

she attempted to quell those emotions after DD #1.... couldn't

went covert like a teenager chasing her dreams (this was not a 

coincidence). Even if she reached whatever stage she sought, 

she lost her husband, children, and to some degree, family.

But we all know Hollywood loves a beaten down person

trying to recapture what was lost

Acoa..... I feel for you..... what you had to go through

I doubt I would have stayed after DD #1, if you had not had kids

would you have stayed after DD #1?


----------



## Acoa

Chuck71 said:


> I doubt I would have stayed after DD #1, if you had not had kids
> 
> would you have stayed after DD #1?


Chuck, thanks for the words of empathy. I've read parts of your story. Yes, we have had some similar experiences. I guess we will never really understand the X. It's irrational, therefore unable to be defined by reason.

I think if we didn't have kids, things would have came to a head sooner. We did a lot of moving, so there were always new people and new mutual relationships to explore and keep her engaged. Of all of the "parts" in her drama, the "role" of the good mother was most important. So, we had something to focus on together. She had something keeping her anchored in reality. 

As the kids got older, and we moved back to a town where she already knew many people and had familiar relationships, thats when it really started to fall apart.

Without the kids, it wouldn't have taken that long. Even so, I would have probably given one second chance. 

I don't give up on things or people easily. I understand people make mistakes, and have issues they need to fix. So, I give them a chance to fix them. But, if they are not working on the right thing, or try to put the blame back on me, then I'm out. Like I am out of this marriage now.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Have you ended all joint accounts? Or rather have you limited the amount of money she now has access to? Obviously, you cannot cut off all her funding, but being put on allowance during the transition will be a major shock to her.


Yep, I've got a new account set up that she doesn't have access to. Most of my money is going there, save for a bit for her to use on the bills she will be keeping (cell phones, car and some medical). 

I'm asking for no maintenance in the D. That she is capable of supporting herself. I'll stop putting into that account when she lands a job, or the D is final. Whichever comes first.

Most people I talk to say they wounldn't even do that much for her. But, I figure I'll do something minimal to her, both for my kids benifit and because until the decree is final, she is still my wife. May not mean much to her, but that doesn't change who I am. I don't want to look back and see that I let anger or quest for revenge change me.


----------



## Acoa

And my outlook for the future is getting more and more positive. 

I've realized that even if she gets more money than I want in the settlement, I'll still be fine. Just like Cheetoes, I'll make more.

I'm excited about the possibilities of dating. I've met a new online friend and it's been really exciting chating and flirting with someone who is interested in me. Who shares similar interests and values. Who could be a real vixen in the bedroom. Good thing she lives far away, or I'd do something too soon. 

But it shows me what is possible for my future, and frankly that part excites me. I may not be devishly handsome. But I'm not repulsive either. And I have several qualities that women find attractive. I expect my problem won't be finding a date, it will be avoiding getting too attracted to someone too soon.

The kids are all doing well. Nobody is lying in the corner crying. They are helping around the house, having friends over and making plans for the summer. Youngest is really stoked about her upcoming trip down to Grandma's in Florida. 

Yeah, sometimes the blues still grab me and pull me down. But I'm realizing that I have some exciting times ahead and I'm looking foward to it now rather than dreading it.


----------



## LongWalk

Great last post.

You may come out the winner.

Chuck's analysis was right on. Your wife was playing in two different games. She did not make it to the board when it was her turn. So her piece got tossed in box and her cards were confiscated. The other game turned out to be a game that had no sustenance. The first game turned out to be real life.

All time and energy your WW put into her affairs was poorly invested. When she destroyed the tire she avoided responsibility by proffering sex. You remarked on her lack of respect for you then, so you were not unaware of her character flaws. Today you no longer want pvssy from her. The thought probably sickens you.

For your WW this is big a change. On TAM WW don't share there thoughts this change because they would be shut down by angry BH. For your wife the financial severance shocks her, as she suddenly realizes that in your marriage you made a contribution financially. Her contribution, SAHM and networker, now looks bogus. She did not stay home enough. Her networking was not on behalf of your family, just the opposite, it was a betrayal.

As to sexual aspect, she probably has not been feeling horny since Dday2. I suspect that if you were to initiate sex (and I am not suggesting it at all), her response would be eager. She would very much want to resume believing that sex could rescue her.

One wonders now if your wife is now rewriting history. Your status as lover is going up and the other men's junk and technique are sinking to negative. Unfortunately for her romance novel ending. She cannot invite you to play Mr Darcy after she has fornicated with Wickham and other scoundrels.

A woman who prostitutes herself for attention will not be able to wipe to slate clean.

Your WW is going, over time, to hope merely that you will be her friend. And when that hope is dead. She will hope for a bit of respect. I think she has a small chance at the latter, but it will require a big effort on her part. She will need IC, a job, good manners, sincerity, remorse.

Do WW feel passionate sexual desire for BH once they realize their cheating is costing them everything? Could be a TAM thread.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

I'm so glad you and the kids are doing fine, and very happy that the kids are in therapy.

Best wishes going forward!


----------



## LongWalk

Hope things are getting easier.


----------



## Suspecting2014

You are doing just fine!


----------



## Acoa

Easier emotionally, but I sense some rough days ahead. As we start working on a formal joint parenting plan and division of assets, I will have to talk with her more and listen to her rationalizations. 

She thinks I'm moving the D along too quickly and wants to slow it down. I have reminded her the D was a consequence of her actions and shouldn't come as a surprise; and that it will happen, with or without her cooperation. 

She wants to try using a mediator , although I've suggested a collaborative approach. I'm worried it's a stall tactic, but I give it a short try and see where it goes.


----------



## LongWalk

Is she beginning to act normal? Must be hard to see her affectless because of mood altering pills.

Slow down the divorce is just a delaying tactic in the hopes of changing your mind. Alternatively she may be manoeuvring for a better settlement. She probably feels incapable of defending her own interests and therefore wants a mediator to protect her. Mediation is fine, too. There must be a standard formula.

The biggest issue is your home. She will have trouble explaining to your children why she should come out of divorce with the family home, given that she was the parent who cheated.

Don't engage her in any discussions about the past. There is no purpose since R is not on the table.


----------



## Acoa

Well, guess that answers that. It our anniversary today and she left me a card and present. In the card she said she wanted to reconcile, but "understood it would be a while until you are ready". 

Yeah, like a cold day in hell.


----------



## Ripper

You think she is going to keep trying to pursue you, even after the divorce?


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Ripper said:


> You think she is going to keep trying to pursue you, even after the divorce?


My guess is, only when she's between BF's.

My guess is she's not the type that likes to be alone, so once the D is final... Heck, I'm guessing that it won't be even that long.

Her note say's it all. "she wanted to reconcile, but "understood it would be a while until you are ready".

In other words, she'll be able to do what and who she wants for a while. If he's then"ready" to try an R, then call me. If I'm not seeing anyone, we'll try R...


----------



## Acoa

Ripper said:


> You think she is going to keep trying to pursue you, even after the divorce?



Yes, I think that is going to happen. So even when it's over, it won't be over. Maybe I'll get my new friend to come down and show her I've moved on.


----------



## LongWalk

She is a person in need of a sense of purpose. The affairs were part but not all of this. If you said something to encourage her to make chastity a goal, she might stick at it for quite a long time. But it would not be moral to lead her on. 

If she sees other men it will destroy her children's regard for her even further. Hopefully, IC will alert her to the need to live alone for a long period.

She no longer needs romantic fornication to fill the void. Her want will be for existential and emotional assurance. She always had that from you and took it for granted. Now she is only just beginning to experience life without you.

How she will cope with the pain, loneliness and shame is not written in stone. For the sake of your children one must hope that she does not take up drink or drugs.

Will she ever feel empathy for you on the same scale as she feels for herself?


----------



## Ripper

For what its worth, it sounds like she ultimately wanted to be with you. Just not enough to be, you know, *faithful*. Cake eating at its finest.

If past actions are an indicator of future behavior, she has a lifetime of pump and dumps ahead. Not many men are looking to put a ring on a post wall single mother who happens to also be a serial adulteress.


----------



## Turin74

The way I read it, there was nothing like IF you (e.g Acoa) ever forgive me, or IF you are willing to give me a chance. It was like a matter of time basically if I'm correct. A lot of artistic people tend to think like that, and when things do not go as scripted it just creates a new script for a new drama



Ripper said:


> For what its worth, it sounds like she ultimately wanted to be with you. Just not enough to be, you know, *faithful*. Cake eating at its finest.
> 
> If past actions are an indicator of future behavior, she has a lifetime of pump and dumps ahead. Not many men are looking to put a ring on a post wall single mother who happens to also be a serial adulteress.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## LongWalk

The Gilbert and Sullivan episode of her life is probably over.

Acoa,

I know the pain is fresh and that dealing with her at all makes things worse. How would she react to a note in reply along the following lines:



> Her name,
> 
> Contrary to the assertion in the card you wrote, we are divorcing without any prospect of reconciliation. We will continue to share parental responsibilities. That will be the extent of our future connection.
> 
> My hope is that we can divorce quickly and with a minimum of conflict. If we succeed in this, it will reduce stress the lives of our children.
> 
> Sincerely yours,
> 
> Acoa


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Will she ever feel empathy for you on the same scale as she feels for herself?



No, I doubt it. If she does she will be unable to express it. She has to be "right" and there is no rational way in this situation so she will continue to be irrational.

As there is no way to reason with irrational I won't. I may give her a copy of the video I made last night. (The card was Star Wars themed and said "wishing for many happy sequels" plus her added comments. I videoed me burning the card and explaining how most sequels suck and are done out of greed and "here is your f'ing sequel.")


----------



## Turin74

The first synonym to the 'sequel' ms word suggested to me was 'consequence'. I wonder...




Acoa said:


> LongWalk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will she ever feel empathy for you on the same scale as she feels for herself?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I doubt it. If she does she will be unable to express it. She has to be "right" and there is no rational way in this situation so she will continue to be irrational.
> 
> As there is no way to reason with irrational I won't. I may give her a copy of the video I made last night. (The card was Star Wars themed and said "wishing for many happy sequels" plus her added comments. I videoed me burning the card and explaining how most sequels suck and are done out of greed and "here is your f'ing sequel.")
Click to expand...

 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Chuck71

I only hope she allows you to "act" your part as you slowly

proceed with the D. After the D..... I am certain you will sing a 

different tune. And as an actress, she could play the scorned, 

left behind wife so well......

I doubt she will have any trouble finding men. I do not see her 

having anything solid and meaningful.


----------



## WyshIknew

Just out of interest Acoa is there nothing your wife could do, no way she could act either now or in the future that would persuade you to reconcile?

Snot bubbling, on her knees sobbing etc etc?

Just asking as it seems that she seems to have some confidence that she can turn this around.


----------



## Acoa

WyshIknew said:


> Just out of interest Acoa is there nothing your wife could do, no way she could act either now or in the future that would persuade you to reconcile?
> 
> 
> 
> Snot bubbling, on her knees sobbing etc etc?



I've given that question a lot of thought over the past month. I can't think of anything. Even if she managed to show remorse for what she did and empathy for the pain I'm feeling, I wouldn't trust it. So, at this point even if she got herself whole and picked up the pieces, it wouldn't help. 

Maybe that's on me, but I don't think so. God says we should forgive and love. I follow that principle, but that doesn't mean reconciling the marriage. She broke that, and broke me. I could never trust her enough to have a good relationship. I'm sure my next couple of relationships will be difficult, and thats without bringing in the baggage of 23 yrs of marriage. 

No, if we ever get back together it will because of some weakness in me that let her get back in under my skin. I don't plan to ever be that weak.


----------



## WyshIknew

No, not at all on you as far as I'm concerned.

She just seems confident this can be turned around (reading between the lines.)

As mentioned even her wanting to delay divorce proceedings speaks volumes.

"Just give me a little time and I'm sure I can wheedle my way back in with Acoa."

I think she will be very hurt the first time you date someone else.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

WyshIknew said:


> No, not at all on you as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> She just seems confident this can be turned around (reading between the lines.)
> 
> As mentioned even her wanting to delay divorce proceedings speaks volumes.
> 
> "Just give me a little time and I'm sure I can wheedle my way back in with Acoa."
> 
> I think she will be very hurt the first time you date someone else.


All the world is a stage.

When the curtain rises for this particular scene, she will most likely give a fine performance.

For what ever the reason she will be doing the acting for. Hurt, anger, or indifference, Rest assured that which ever mask she chooses to don - It will have more to do with what she wants than how she actually feels about it.


----------



## WyshIknew

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> All the world is a stage.
> 
> When the curtain rises for this particular scene, she will most likely give a fine performance.
> 
> For what ever the reason she will be doing the acting for. Hurt, anger, or indifference, Rest assured that which ever mask she chooses to don - It will have more to do with what she wants than how she actually feels about it.


Yes.

Obviously I don't know Mrs Acoa but the suspicion is that she would be more concerned about losing the lifestyle she is accustomed to.


----------



## Chuck71

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> All the world is a stage.
> 
> When the curtain rises for this particular scene, she will most likely give a fine performance.
> 
> For what ever the reason she will be doing the acting for. Hurt, anger, or indifference, Rest assured that which ever mask she chooses to don - It will have more to do with what she wants than how she actually feels about it.


were you the one who coined the term "X box" for LivinFree's X?


----------



## LongWalk

Reading the STBXMrsAcoa is tricky. What sort of character qualities she really has remains to be seen because she has not hit bottom. She needs to experience being snubbed by some friends and relatives who cannot simply rug sweep her cheating. To be honest she will have to tell people that she was a serial cheater. If she does not, then she will be living a new lie: the cover up.

Economically, it looks likely that she'll get enough out of the settlement and spousal support to live in reduced circumstances. So the economic shock that might aid her to think clearly is not certain to have an impact. She may accept "poverty" as her martyrdom.

If she got a job at, for example, MacDonald's, she has the ability to rise up and become a manager. That positive energy that she had for the theater could help her put her life together. It will take several years for her to find herself.

Of course hooking up with men in relationships would distract her from any fundamental introspection. I think she could win back some respect from Acoa if she treats the situation soberly. As far as reconciliation goes, that will be very unlikely because Acoa will date and move on.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Reading the STBXMrsAcoa is tricky. What sort of character qualities she really has remains to be seen because she has not hit bottom. She needs to experience being snubbed by some friends and relatives who cannot simply rug sweep her cheating. To be honest she will have to tell people that she was a serial cheater. If she does not, then she will be living a new lie: the cover up.
> 
> Economically, it looks likely that she'll get enough out of the settlement and spousal support to live in reduced circumstances. So the economic shock that might aid her to think clearly is not certain to have an impact. She may accept "poverty" as her martyrdom.
> 
> If she got a job at, for example, MacDonald's, she has the ability to rise up and become a manager. That positive energy that she had for the theater could help her put her life together. It will take several years for her to find herself.
> 
> Of course hooking up with men in relationships would distract her from any fundamental introspection. I think she could win back some respect from Acoa if she treats the situation soberly. As far as reconciliation goes, that will be very unlikely because Acoa will date and move on.


She has the capacity for gainful employment. Master's degree in ciriculum and a valid teaching certificate. Teaching positions are available, but there is much competition. So, ultimately she may settle for something outside her choosen field. But I doubt it will be retail or fast food. Her life won't be as easy as I had made it for her, but I doubt she will be living in poverty either.

I'm sure that at least for a little while she will either hold off on other men or keep it secret from everyone. Hard to play the victim if you are still perpetrating. It will be hard for me to discern what is real introspection and what is facade in her life. 

We are at the scene where Rhett tells Scarlett he doesn't give a damn and walks off into the mist. I think she believes it's time for her to start on her sequel and work on herself and hope that someday in the future I see how much she has changed and fixed herself and fall back in love with her. 

So, maybe she will be cooperative in the divorce. Maybe she will go through the motions of fixing herself. But I think you are right, she hasn't hit bottom. I think she will continue to supress the parts of herself she doesn't want to face, and that will come out eventually.


----------



## GusPolinski

Don't send the video to her. Use her desire to reconcile in your favor. First, ask her what she's willing to offer to you in exchange for reconciliation. Listen to her, and let her finish (don't interrupt but provide input if prompted), but bring the conversation to a close by telling her that the only way that you'd be willing to even entertain the notion of reconciliation is for her to concede to the following...

1. The divorce is going to happen, and the pace will continue unabated. The terms can be fair and amicable (for the both of you), but it is going to happen regardless.

2. She leaves the marital home (assuming, of course, that this is what you want) and agrees to limited, temporary spousal support.

3. She will pursue and obtain gainful, full-time employment.

4. She will attend, and pay for, individual counseling. Seriously, she needs it.

5. You make her aware that, at some point, you are going to pursue paternity testing for your children. Additionally, she will reimburse you for the expense. Watch her reaction.

6. Any and all involvement in the theater goes away. Between her full-time job, counseling, and juggling the kids' schedules, she won't have the time for it anyway.

7. While living apart, she agrees to be celibate or, at the very least, in a monogamous relationship w/ you. You, however, will retain the right to date others as you see fit. In short, she will have to compete for your affection. This is only fair, as you spent years competing w/ other men for hers (and sharing her w/ them) w/o even knowing it.

8. There will be no friendships or, honestly, any relationships of any kind w/ any males who are not a direct blood relation to either of you.

9. Absolute, complete, and total transparency in all things, all the time.

10. If, at some point in the future, after having re-entered into a full-bore monogamous relationship w/ her, the two of you decide to re-marry, there will be an ironclad pre-nup.

Thoughts?


----------



## Acoa

GusPolinski said:


> Don't send the video to her. Use her desire to reconcile in your favor. First, ask her what she's willing to offer to you in exchange for reconciliation. Listen to her, and let her finish (don't interrupt but provide input if prompted), but bring the conversation to a close by telling her that the only way that you'd be willing to even entertain the notion of reconciliation is for her to concede to the following...
> 
> 1. The divorce is going to happen, and the pace will continue unabated. The terms can be fair and amicable (for the both of you), but it is going to happen regardless.
> 
> 2. She leaves the marital home (assuming, of course, that this is what you want) and agrees to limited, temporary spousal support.
> 
> 3. She will pursue and obtain gainful, full-time employment.
> 
> 4. She will attend, and pay for, individual counseling. Seriously, she needs it.
> 
> 5. You make her aware that, at some point, you are going to pursue paternity testing for your children. Additionally, she will reimburse you for the expense. Watch her reaction.
> 
> 6. Any and all involvement in the theater goes away. Between her full-time job, counseling, and juggling the kids' schedules, she won't have the time for it anyway.
> 
> 7. While living apart, she agrees to be celibate or, at the very least, in a monogamous relationship w/ you. You, however, will retain the right to date others as you see fit. In short, she will have to compete for your affection. This is only fair, as you spent years competing w/ other men for hers (and sharing her w/ them) w/o even knowing it.
> 
> 8. There will be no friendships or, honestly, any relationships of any kind w/ any males who are not a direct blood relation to either of you.
> 
> 9. Absolute, complete, and total transparency in all things, all the time.
> 
> 10. If, at some point in the future, after having re-entered into a full-bore monogamous relationship w/ her, the two of you decide to re-marry, there will be an ironclad pre-nup.
> 
> Thoughts?


I don't intend to send her the video. I did that for myself and thought I'd share here. 

I'm not going to lead her on, but I'm also not going to spend a lot of time trying to burst her bubble. I'm proceeding with the divorce. She can either cooperate and come out of it with some coin in her pocket, or piss it all way fighting with me and we both come out broke. Either way, the marriage is over. She can pick the path out, amicably or kicking and screaming.

I'm not going to dictate what she does or doesn't do. Now that we are seperated, what she does is her business, not mine. She would probably love if I did have a bunch of conditions for her to follow. It would keep me wrapped up in her orbit. It would be lopsided and dysfunctional and just plain wierd. 

The point of letting go is to actually let go. I don't want, expect or need anything from her. She can give me what I want, or I'll try to take it through litigation. Even if it doesn't turn out exactly how I want, I'm sure I'll exit the marriage happier than I was in it.


----------



## Clay2013

Its just heart breaking to even read this thread. Its brings back so many horrible memories for me. I think you are doing the right thing. Don't lead her on just follow through with the D. I tried for years to get my xW to stop cheating on me. Thinking I had to stick it out for the kids. Raised with the belief that you don't abandon your SO. She just continued her pattern and I filed for D and kicked her out. 

I personally recommend you just push for custody. It sounds like she is already proving she is unstable and the judge would side with you. I did get custody of my kids. My xW sees the kids 4 days out of the month and she still causes them enough grief I am considering moving out of the state.

I wish you and your kids the very best and hope you get time out for you to really heal.

Clay


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> I don't intend to send her the video. I did that for myself and thought I'd share here.
> 
> I'm not going to lead her on, but I'm also not going to spend a lot of time trying to burst her bubble. I'm proceeding with the divorce. She can either cooperate and come out of it with some coin in her pocket, or piss it all way fighting with me and we both come out broke. Either way, the marriage is over. She can pick the path out, amicably or kicking and screaming.
> 
> I'm not going to dictate what she does or doesn't do. Now that we are seperated, what she does is her business, not mine. She would probably love if I did have a bunch of conditions for her to follow. It would keep me wrapped up in her orbit. It would be lopsided and dysfunctional and just plain wierd.
> 
> The point of letting go is to actually let go. I don't want, expect or need anything from her. She can give me what I want, or I'll try to take it through litigation. Even if it doesn't turn out exactly how I want, I'm sure I'll exit the marriage happier than I was in it.


BAM! There you go. Might as well send the video now.


----------



## WyshIknew

Acoa said:


> The point of letting go is to actually let go. I don't want, expect or need anything from her. She can give me what I want, or I'll try to take it through litigation. Even if it doesn't turn out exactly how I want, I'm sure I'll exit the marriage happier than I was in it.


This. Just this. all the manoeuvring in the world will not combat this.


----------



## LongWalk

I think Gus's reconciliation conditions closely mimic what has occurred on a couple of other threads: Emptyshelldad, HardtoDetach, Rookie (sort of). It works for some, but it is just that, work. Weird? Sort of. But it is essentially because the WW is basically a decent person who has gone wrong.

Acoa is a logical and business like person. It is not his style to set up some confusing relationship with obligations that require policing. Divorce means you don't have a say and you shouldn't want one, unless the divorce is a means to R.

-----

Acoa,

I don't find your wife an entirely unsympathetic character. Checking into psychiatric in-patient treatment was a very correct form of self criticism. Her unreal world, the mentally unhealthy theatrical fog, was delusional. She recognized that.

Many of the points made by Gus are simply an extension of the departure from her messed up secret life.

You will not be able avoid following your STBXW's progress entirely. It will be impossible to not be curious for a period of time. Gradually as you see her less and less, she will fade out of your daily thoughts.

I hope you children are doing well, given the circumstances.


----------



## WyshIknew

LongWalk said:


> I think Gus's reconciliation conditions closely mimic what has occurred on a couple of other threads: Emptyshelldad, HardtoDetach, Rookie (sort of). It works for some, but it is just that, work. Weird? Sort of. But it is essentially because the WW is basically a decent person who has gone wrong.
> 
> Acoa is a logical and business like person. It is not his style to set up some confusing relationship with obligations that require policing. Divorce means you don't have a say and you shouldn't want one, unless the divorce is a means to R.
> 
> -----
> 
> Acoa,
> 
> I don't find your wife an entirely unsympathetic character. Checking into psychiatric in-patient treatment was a very correct form of self criticism. Her unreal world, the mentally unhealthy theatrical fog, was delusional. She recognized that.
> 
> Many of the points made by Gus are simply an extension of the departure from her messed up secret life.
> 
> You will not be able avoid following your STBXW's progress entirely. It will be impossible to not be curious for a period of time. Gradually as you see her less and less, she will fade out of your daily thoughts.
> 
> I hope you children are doing well, given the circumstances.


Hopefully it will eventually become a case of, who? Oh, her,


----------



## GusPolinski

LongWalk said:


> I think Gus's reconciliation conditions closely mimic what has occurred on a couple of other threads: Emptyshelldad, HardtoDetach, Rookie (sort of). It works for some, but it is just that, work. Weird? Sort of. But it is essentially because the WW is basically a decent person who has gone wrong.
> 
> Acoa is a logical and business like person. It is not his style to set up some confusing relationship with obligations that require policing. Divorce means you don't have a say and you shouldn't want one, unless the divorce is a means to R.
> 
> -----
> 
> Acoa,
> 
> I don't find your wife an entirely unsympathetic character. Checking into psychiatric in-patient treatment was a very correct form of self criticism. Her unreal world, the mentally unhealthy theatrical fog, was delusional. She recognized that.
> 
> Many of the points made by Gus are simply an extension of the departure from her messed up secret life.
> 
> You will not be able avoid following your STBXW's progress entirely. It will be impossible to not be curious for a period of time. Gradually as you see her less and less, she will fade out of your daily thoughts.
> 
> I hope you children are doing well, given the circumstances.


My point wasn't to necessarily say "Hey Acoa, you should reconcile, so do these things..." but rather to imply that he could use her (honestly, extremely naive and rather far-fetched) hopes for reconciliation to his benefit while simultaneously testing her sincerity.

And besides, using that framework would still allow him to more or less close the loop altogether and completely walk away from her at pretty much any point in the future.


----------



## Chaparral

I'm courious and do not remember if this info was discussed. What did your wife actually do in the theater group? As in actor , producer, volunteer, director, mgr etc.


----------



## GusPolinski

Must...not...make...joke...


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



GusPolinski said:


> Must...not...make...joke...


I had a response and although I think it was funny I deleted it out of respect for Acoa.


----------



## Acoa

Chaparral said:


> I'm courious and do not remember if this info was discussed. What did your wife actually do in the theater group? As in actor , producer, volunteer, director, mgr etc.



Mostly backstage. Stage manager, props and set deck. She occasionally assistant directs and is a production manager.


----------



## convert

GusPolinski said:


> Must...not...make...joke...


Gus at least you didn't cough

I was thinking the same thing


----------



## GusPolinski

To clarify, the "cough" that I usually employ here (i.e. *cough* saysomethingwitty) is meant to be more of the throat-clearing "Ahem!" type sound.


----------



## Rugs

Again, these threads get long so I need some help. 

Acoa caught wife cheating dday1 and after careful monitoring (GPS , phone, etc. there was a DDAY 2 and now filing for divorce. 

If all her phone records were clean for a year or two and no activity until deleted texts were discovered, how was she communicating with her AP? Where were they meeting? The Theatre? Parking Lot? 

And did Alcoa ever state how many children and ages. 

Until I read up to DDAY2, alcoa's wife had me fooled too. 

I'm very sorry for your pain, ACOA.


----------



## Acoa

They hooked up at the theater. They texted, but it seemed like business. LTR OM was facility manager and STBXW was property mistress (the irony is not lost on me).

So their text were about things that needed to be moved or fixed. Then the other would reply with when they would take care of said problem. It was a code to tell the other to meet up.

All other conversations were at the theater or using the theater phone. Until recently, she either figured I wasn't looking anymore or that she could gaslight me again.

3 kids, D20, S18 and D15.


----------



## Acoa

And in other news we talked briefly yesterday. She wanted me to read a certain book on the aftermath of major depression. She also said she was hurt that I was moving on so fast. That I was dating a girl. 

I told her that she is "just a friend" and she had no room to talk. She started crying and left.

Said "girlfriend" lives 10hrs away. She is in a similar situation and we do enjoy texting and talking to each other. 

STBXW claims she concluded this due to the girls presence on my FB page. But her presence is fairly innocuous. I think it's more likely STBX is reading my private journal. In it I mention that we had phone sex and a mutual attraction. I also mention that I'm glad she lives far away or I would do something dumb. 

I'm thinking I should plant something in my journal to test if she is reading it or not.


----------



## farsidejunky

Why does she have access to your journal?


----------



## Acoa

farsidejunky said:


> Why does she have access to your journal?



She has access to the house. I think she searched through my dresser. I had it under some clothes. Not exactly the most stealthy hiding place, but I figured she had better things to do during her visitation than search through my stuff.

After she has the party here this weekend I will pack up the bedroom and move her stuff out. Then I can at least padlock the bedroom door.


----------



## LongWalk

GusPolinski said:


> My point wasn't to necessarily say "Hey Acoa, you should reconcile, so do these things..." but rather to imply that he could use her (honestly, extremely naive and rather far-fetched) hopes for reconciliation to his benefit while simultaneously testing her sincerity.
> 
> And besides, using that framework would still allow him to more or less close the loop altogether and completely walk away from her at pretty much any point in the future.


I think I understand what Gus is getting at.

Right now Acoa you are struggling with raw hurt. Furthermore, you do not even know what further betrayal your wife holds in store for you. She may well have cheated earlier and more fellas. She may seek to make the divorce difficult. She is likely to seek a co-dependent relationship even in divorce. That would be unhealthy for you.

The simplest prescription – the one you intellectually grasp – is to cut her out of your life asap and avoid all unnecessary contact. This would enable you to go on with life and be happy in a new relationship or maybe even relationships. This is the purpose of divorce.

The exception is when reconciliation is the goal but reconciliation from a completely different dynamic. The cheater would have to be remorseful and put in an enormous effort. Most cheaters are probably not capable of it.

Your STBX is probably headed for her new status as that mixed up woman whose self destruction will always remain painful, if for no other reason than the years you had together and your children. No body wants their children to suffer from the implosion of a parent. That is harmful to them, especially when they are teens.

Your STBX is still thinking about her pain. You are interested in other women and she is jealous. This is absurd, given that she an adulteress. She is not a female Dr Spock.

I never liked Star Trek that much but it was still better than most of the TV shows of that time. Dr Spock the logical man without emotion. What a character. The real Spocks of our world are sociopaths.

Your wife is not one. Gus and I see her this because you have presented a good portrait of her.

This is the tragedy. You could have met her needs if she had given you a chance. You understand her quite well. She sincerely felt sorry for OM's wife even as she was fvcking her husband. STBXW probably tells people what people want to hear because she has a certain generosity. Unfortunately, she was overly generous with OM. They probably liked your wife for her personality more than her middle aged vagina. She wanted their compliments.

One OM even accused her of using him. He was addicted to her good regard and then she suddenly took it away.

At present you hold most the cards. I would tell her straight:



> After Dday 1 you betrayed me repeatedly, although you knew the consequences. Never mind the hurt you have caused me. You have disturbed our children's lives.
> 
> We now need to divorce quickly without acrimony and drama. Forget about reconciliation. Your goal should be win back our children's respect by being a good parent. To do that your personal life has to be in order. What that entails requires some introspection on your part.
> 
> If I were your friend, I would tell you to get a full time job and reduce the financial burden that divorce has placed on me and the children. Money that could have gone to their education will now be burnt up in maintaining two households, where once there was only one.
> 
> If I were your friend, I would tell you stay off the relationship carrousel because the entry and exit of men in your life will hurt our children further. But from my perspective you are free to lead your life as you wish. And so am I.
> 
> Your tears, pleading and drama just pile a guilt trip on me. If you respected me you would not do it. Instead of coming to me and saying that I am moving on too quickly, you should be coming to say that you got a job that provides medical coverage, so that I can remove that weight.
> 
> Remember the tire you wantonly destroyed? That casual misbehavior forced me to waste time getting it fixed, filling me with anger. If you had taken the responsibility to take care of it, that would have created good will. But your energy was going into secretly giving pvssy to other men, and not into our marriage.
> 
> Moving on from you is an act of self preservation on my part. I must do it for my own sake and for our children.
> 
> Ignoring you is a new discipine for me. Everything positive you brought into my life has to go because the negative aspects are overwhelming and intolerable. I cannot stop you from seeking to win back my respect. If you make the divorce smooth, get a job and co-parent, I will be forced to acknowledge even if only to myself that you learned from your mistakes.


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> I'm thinking I should plant something in my journal to test if she is reading it or not.


Oh I'd have fun w/ this. Maybe write something like "I miss her so badly. I want to reconcile, but I don't know how to tell her that. Maybe after the divorce is final we could date again, and just take things slowly from there. But how could I ever trust her again? After years of lying, what could she possibly do to regain my trust?."


----------



## GusPolinski

LongWalk said:


> *I never liked Star Trek that much* but it was still better than most of the TV shows of that time.


LW, I don't think that we can be friends anymore.


----------



## Chuck71

GusPolinski said:


> LW, I don't think that we can be friends anymore.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

love the old Star Trek. As for the movies, like ST 1-6 most

but more a Star Wars fan than ST. Prefer the 4-6 than later

made 1-3. But both give excellent messages


----------



## Chuck71

GusPolinski said:


> Oh I'd have fun w/ this. Maybe write something like "I miss her so badly. I want to reconcile, but I don't know how to tell her that. Maybe after the divorce is final we could date again, and just take things slowly from there. But how could I ever trust her again? After years of lying, what could she possibly do to regain my trust?."


or..... try this...."I do miss my wife. The roles she carries out

on stage secretly intensify my sexual desires. To the point....

I have began to wear her clothes when she is not around. When

she was in the hospital I snuck away to (insert large city) and

had a makeover in one of her outfits. Maybe she would want to

see the glamour shots?"

Let her analyze this for a few days


----------



## Acoa

Chuck71 said:


> or..... try this...."I do miss my wife. The roles she carries out
> 
> 
> 
> on stage secretly intensify my sexual desires. To the point....
> 
> 
> 
> I have began to wear her clothes when she is not around. When
> 
> 
> 
> she was in the hospital I snuck away to (insert large city) and
> 
> 
> 
> had a makeover in one of her outfits. Maybe she would want to
> 
> 
> 
> see the glamour shots?"
> 
> 
> 
> Let her analyze this for a few days



Wtf? Uh, no. It would definitely shock her, but would also give her ammo against me in court.


----------



## Acoa

GusPolinski said:


> Oh I'd have fun w/ this. Maybe write something like "I miss her so badly. I want to reconcile, but I don't know how to tell her that. Maybe after the divorce is final we could date again, and just take things slowly from there. But how could I ever trust her again? After years of lying, what could she possibly do to regain my trust?."



Not a bad idea.


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> Wtf? Uh, no. It would definitely shock her, but would also give her ammo against me in court.


That was my thought as well. Hilarious, though.


----------



## Chuck71

was definitely meant as more comedy than anything.

but..... cross dressing is not considered a reason for D

well.... unless you put make up on without shaving


----------



## LongWalk

"I survived my wife's infidelity by becoming a cross dresser" – might be able to get a BH on to a TV show. A lot people are looking for tips.

"Feeling good in her nylon stockings was cheaper than therapy under Obamacare."


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> "I survived my wife's infidelity by becoming a cross dresser" – might be able to get a BH on to a TV show. A lot people are looking for tips.
> 
> "Feeling good in her nylon stockings was cheaper than therapy under Obamacare."


ROFLMFAO :rofl: :rofl::rofl:


----------



## Ripper

Acoa said:


> She wanted me to read a certain book on the aftermath of major depression.


Who's depression are we talking about? You seem to being doing great considering everything.



Acoa said:


> She also said she was hurt that I was moving on so fast. That I was dating a girl.
> 
> I told her that she is "just a friend" and she had no room to talk. She started crying and left.


Hypocrisy and emotional manipulation. Nice to see she hasn't changed.


----------



## Acoa

Ripper said:


> Who's depression are we talking about? You seem to being doing great considering everything.


Her depression. Her diag is major depressive disorder. That she has had it since she was a teen. And probably the only reason it hadn't been a major problem sooner is that I was a stabilizing influence. 

Hopefully she is on the right track, but who knows. I certainly don't. I worry about her, but I'm done being her emotional anchor. I've been drained by 20+ years of it and can't keep my sanity if I remain in a relationship with her. Besides, even if the diag is correct, diagnosis is a long way from resolution. 



Ripper said:


> Hypocrisy and emotional manipulation. Nice to see she hasn't changed.


Like I said, long diagnosis is a long way from resolution. If we were to stay in a relationship, we will get stuck back in our old patterns. No thanks, I'm done with that so bye, bye. 

Even if years later she seems 'fixed', I wouldn't be able to get passed the past. This is the point she fails to grasp. She believes that if I stay unattached, that at some point I'll see how well she is doing and we can live happily ever after. I think sending her a letter along the lines of longwalk's earlier post is a good way to proceed.


----------



## Ripper

Acoa said:


> Her depression. Her diag is major depressive disorder. That she has had it since she was a teen.


Funny how there is always a reason for their behavior. I guess you wouldn't make much being a therapist if you just told people they were vile and selfish. 



Acoa said:


> I'm done with that so bye, bye.
> 
> Even if years later she seems 'fixed', I wouldn't be able to get passed the past. This is the point she fails to grasp. She believes that if I stay unattached, that at some point I'll see how well she is doing and we can live happily ever after.


Considering that you don't and likely will never know the full extent of her betrayal, its better if you can just detach from all of it.

Glad you are doing well. Another woman's validation is like superglue for the ego right now.


----------



## Chuck71

Acoa, in light of my comment, I am mostly dead serious

but I do have a psycho side LOL

when you deal with them, it is best you have one too


----------



## Lostinthought61

Acoa, her need to look in your journal to see what you wrote about her and about the both of you is a sign of a desperate person, she is spiraling downward and is looking for anything to hold on too....my concern of putting false information is that she get worse when she discovers the information is wrong...frankly the best thing you go let her read is the words of pain that she bestowed upon you through her actions, let the words lift from the pages and be absorbed in her, whether you realize it or not they will find a home in her head and she will have to live with them forever...she may very well show no remorse up front or little remorse, but when she is alone with her thoughts they will comeback to haunt her.


----------



## LongWalk

Xenote is correct. The question is how long it will take for her to actually think about Acoa or anyone else. And to what degree will she be able empathize and experience deep remorse? It could take years and it might never happen.

It is of course absurd that a cheater should demand fidelity from the BH who has clearly stated that he was out. There isn't even an obligation of fidelity once you separate with intent to divorce.

The hell of it is Acoa's wife is going to be emotionally needy and turn to the three children to find solace. Acoa which of your children is taking it worst? How can you help them? It might be good to go to family therapist regularly for a while. Perhaps when school starts again they can get some help from the school counselor.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> The hell of it is Acoa's wife is going to be emotionally needy and turn to the three children to find solace. Acoa which of your children is taking it worst? How can you help them? It might be good to go to family therapist regularly for a while. Perhaps when school starts again they can get some help from the school counselor.


Youngest is taking it the hardest. She is seeing a therapist weekly. Overall she is holding up well and is looking forward to her trip to see Grandma in 3 weeks. 

The older two have already learned the art of disengaging from her when they need to. Between friends, work, school and hobbies they have no problem staying busy.


----------



## LongWalk

Your wife will probably latch on to your youngest. 

When my uncle cheated and his wife divorced him, their second child who was then in medical school an hour's drive away ended up as the child who became the confidant of both parents, seeking sympathy.

It was hard on him. The other three children all had finished college and left home. They escaped the conflict to a great degree.


----------



## Acoa

STBX posted to FB the following....

"I have done some really rotten horrible things. I know that and acknowledge that. I am also deeply sorry about what I did (whether you want to believe that or not). For my mental health, I cannot stay in that place and beat myself up over it all day after day. I am working my best to be better every day. It will be a long process and I don't ever want to go back there ever again. I am doing whatever I can to be a better and stronger person in the long run. I know I have people who love and support me and I want to thank you for your continued support."

I know that is directed at me. It irks me that she posts that publiclly pandering for sympathy from friends and family. I didn't want to start a public war, so I shared to my timeline visible to only my mom and both my siblings and hers;

"I understand that you cannot stay in that place. Please understand that I can't ignore that I've been betrayed and manipulated. I am hurt, and angry and trying hard to deal with that privately. I'm sharing this post with a very limited audience as I don't belive in airing our private matters in such a public forum. But I felt the need to express myself in response to this post you made. Belive me when I say that I don't hate you. I hate what you've done, and I will hurt for a long time to come. I know that my pain will be a hinderence to your healing. Your avoidance of my pain will hinder my healing. This is the reason we need to divorce. I am glad you plan to approach it aimicably. I will endevor to be as flexible as I can. Please, in the future, think of me and our children when you post such things. Our kids read this and wonder why I'm so hard of heart. They wonder why I can't forgive you. By trying to claim to be the victim, you shift blame and shame on me. I carry enough of my own. Please don't give me more.

If you feel you must share, please check the privacy settings on that post, and exclude our children, nieces, nephews and thier friends from being able to see it. Thank you."

When I got home there was 11 pages of handwritten letters written to me from her. Some while she was at her inpatient program, and some from a couple days ago. I'll post more about those another time. Reading them was hard. She is good at manipulating me, and I honestly don't think she realizes she is doing that. 

I was changing the wifi password and D15 asked me to stop being so 'aggresive' with STBX. She said that she understood we would be getting divorced, but she hoped that we could still talk and be friends. I'm sure that's her mother speaking through her. I just hugged her and said I'll try. I'm so pissed about it. But I think LongWalk is right. She is going to latch on to the youngest and use her as her tool to get to me.


----------



## GusPolinski

Ugh. You probably shouldn't have responded at all, but I understand why you did.

As for your daughter's comments, that's gotta be rough. I'm not really sure how you'd be able to frame a conversation w/ her in order to say something like... "Sweetheart, your mother has given me three beautiful children, each of which I adore, cherish, and love, and _I will always be grateful to her for that_. And yes, I do love her. But understand that, by way of _years_ of very intentional deceit, dishonesty, and manipulation, she has wounded me very deeply, and it will likely take me the rest of my life to heal. I am happy to co-parent w/ her for the rest of our lives, and I will make every effort to be as cordial w/ her as possible, but I have no real interest in being her friend."

Actually, that comment is probably better said to your WW. It'd probably make it's way back to your kids, though, but only after being twisted around and warped to at least some degree.


----------



## harrybrown

Sorry she is using the kids that way.

They need to be let out of it, and not have more to deal with in IC.

180 will be your second best help, and in time your new lady will be your best help.


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa, I just re-read her FB post and, assuming that it is indeed aimed at you, you know what I don't see...?

"I'm sorry that I did this to you." or "I'm sorry that I hurt you."

I mean seriously... She admits to what she's done but doesn't acknowledge that it hurt you, not to mention _*how much*_ it must have hurt you. But yeah, she's broken, and she needs to heal. She admits to that. Good for her. But where does consideration for you and your pain come into the picture?

Un-f*cking-believable.

"I love you."

But hey, thanks to all that love and support *her*. What about her husband? Her children? Her family?

Need I say more?


----------



## WyshIknew

GusPolinski said:


> Acoa, I just re-read her FB post and, assuming that it is indeed aimed at you, you know what I don't see...?
> 
> "I'm sorry that I did this to you." or "I'm sorry that I hurt you."
> 
> I mean seriously... She admits to what she's done but doesn't acknowledge that it hurt you, not to mention _*how much*_ it must have hurt you. But yeah, she's broken, and she needs to heal. She admits to that. Good for her. But where does consideration for you and your pain come into the picture?
> 
> Un-f*cking-believable.
> 
> "I love you."
> 
> But hey, thanks to all that love and support *her*. What about her husband? Her children? Her family?
> 
> Need I say more?


Acoa mentions 11 pages of handwritten letters in which she is trying to manipulate him. Perhaps it is covered in her letters?


----------



## GusPolinski

WyshIknew said:


> Acoa mentions 11 pages of handwritten letters in which she is trying to manipulate him. Perhaps it is covered in her letters?


Perhaps but, if you're going to make some sort of grand overture for all the world to see, pouring your heart out in an attempt to "win back" your jilted spouse, you'd probably want to at least acknowledge having wronged him/her (as opposed to simply doing "rotten horrible things"), along w/ the pain that it caused, and then bring things to a close w/ an ILY. Right...?

Well, not here. Instead, Acoa is treated to some vague, lukewarm diatribe about how awful a person she's been, how badly she feels about it, and how she needs to get better, and won't continue to dwell on the "rotten horrible things" that she's done. Oh, and thanks to everyone for their love and support.

Pfft... please...


----------



## WyshIknew

GusPolinski said:


> Perhaps but, if you're going to make some sort of grand overture for all the world to see, pouring your heart out in an attempt to "win back" your jilted spouse, you'd probably want to at least acknowledge having wronged him/her (as opposed to simply doing "rotten horrible things"), along w/ the pain that it caused, and then bring things to a close w/ an ILY. Right...?
> 
> Well, not here. Instead, Acoa is treated to some vague, lukewarm diatribe about how awful a person she's been, how badly she feels about it, and how she needs to get better, and won't continue to dwell on the "rotten horrible things" that she's done. Oh, and thanks to everyone for their love and support.
> 
> Pfft... please...


You're no doubt right. I just felt that the very nature of her vague lukewarm diatribe was designed to allow her to dodge some blame, to avoid having to implicate herself in any direct fault.

Much more of a "pity poor me" diatribe.

If she had acknowledged her wrong etc it would have meant having to own more of her wrongdoing.


----------



## GusPolinski

Yep, exactly my point. *That* was her focus.


----------



## Chuck71

Acoa said:


> STBX posted to FB the following....
> 
> "I have done some really rotten horrible things. I know that and acknowledge that. I am also deeply sorry about what I did (whether you want to believe that or not). For my mental health, I cannot stay in that place and beat myself up over it all day after day. I am working my best to be better every day. It will be a long process and I don't ever want to go back there ever again. I am doing whatever I can to be a better and stronger person in the long run. I know I have people who love and support me and I want to thank you for your continued support."
> 
> I know that is directed at me. It irks me that she posts that publiclly pandering for sympathy from friends and family. I didn't want to start a public war, so I shared to my timeline visible to only my mom and both my siblings and hers;
> 
> "I understand that you cannot stay in that place. Please understand that I can't ignore that I've been betrayed and manipulated. I am hurt, and angry and trying hard to deal with that privately. I'm sharing this post with a very limited audience as I don't belive in airing our private matters in such a public forum. But I felt the need to express myself in response to this post you made. Belive me when I say that I don't hate you. I hate what you've done, and I will hurt for a long time to come. I know that my pain will be a hinderence to your healing. Your avoidance of my pain will hinder my healing. This is the reason we need to divorce. I am glad you plan to approach it aimicably. I will endevor to be as flexible as I can. Please, in the future, think of me and our children when you post such things. Our kids read this and wonder why I'm so hard of heart. They wonder why I can't forgive you. By trying to claim to be the victim, you shift blame and shame on me. I carry enough of my own. Please don't give me more.
> 
> If you feel you must share, please check the privacy settings on that post, and exclude our children, nieces, nephews and thier friends from being able to see it. Thank you."
> 
> When I got home there was 11 pages of handwritten letters written to me from her. Some while she was at her inpatient program, and some from a couple days ago. I'll post more about those another time. Reading them was hard. She is good at manipulating me, and I honestly don't think she realizes she is doing that.
> 
> I was changing the wifi password and D15 asked me to stop being so 'aggresive' with STBX. She said that she understood we would be getting divorced, but she hoped that we could still talk and be friends. I'm sure that's her mother speaking through her. I just hugged her and said I'll try. I'm so pissed about it. But I think LongWalk is right. She is going to latch on to the youngest and use her as her tool to get to me.


her stage is now....... a keyboard

as long as there is an audience..... the show must go on


----------



## Acoa

WyshIknew said:


> Acoa mentions 11 pages of handwritten letters in which she is trying to manipulate him. Perhaps it is covered in her letters?


In the 11 pages, there are on average about 40 references to herself for every mention of me and the kids. The only hint of remorse is in the first paragraph:

"Dear ACOA,

I know that I have hurt you so very deeply. I never wanted to do that. I hurts me to see you in pain. I need you to know that I didn't go out looking for an affair. I swore to myself that I could stop it. I don't know exactly why I did what I did because I know it was wrong. I thought that I could pretend everythign was normal and then life would return to normal. I can see how this was cruel to you. I lied and betrayed you. I risked everything fo something that I could only get from you in the first place, your true & unfailing love."

Even while acknowledging my pain, she turns it back to her needs. 

I feel bad for her. I don't know that she will ever find out what it is that will fill that void she feels inside. For a long time it was me. I can't supply that anymore. I need to find myself. I've been lost for a long time and need to supply my needs. I can't do that with her. Even now that she recognizes it (in a way), she would still be a huge drain. 

I wish for our kids sake I could be more friendly with her. Maybe I can be at some point in the future when I'm stronger. But now I'm too vunerable. I need to be distant and keep the 180 going.


----------



## Acoa

Chuck71 said:


> her stage is now....... a keyboard
> 
> as long as there is an audience..... the show must go on


She called about the wifi password. I told her about D15's comments from last night, and that she needs to be careful what she is posting to FB. She agreed, let's see how long she behaves. I'm guessing < 1wk. 

I told her if she needs to pander to an audience, make a list of her theater friends and older family (not anyone who would be chatting with our kids) and post to them only. I don't care if she panders for positive feedback. Just don't pull the kids into it.


----------



## farsidejunky

You continue to be an honorable man in the face of utter nonsense. You have my respect, brother.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

WyshIknew said:


> Acoa mentions 11 pages of handwritten letters in which she is trying to manipulate him. Perhaps it is covered in her letters?


Private vs. Public? I know which one means more to me. Letters are for his consumption only. That's a public "apology," which makes him look bad. I mean his daughter came home and basically told him to "calm down."


----------



## Rugs

ACOA, 

When I read the first few pages of your thread, I really felt like it was almost a full time job for you to monitor your wayward spouse. AND, I thought you were wasting your time. 

She had me fooled too. I'm fooled every time and that's why I personally don't think I could ever be in a serious relationship again. 

But back to my point. 

Your kids are older, your wife gas lighted you mercilessly.....do you want to spend any more time on this marriage? 

I'm not sure where you stand, really. Are you considering reconciliation ? The gas-lighting after DDay 1 bothers me more than the original affair itself. YOUR the one that should be depressed. 

I love how all these "problems" come out AFTER DDAY's. 

I do tend to look at children's ages because I think all parties should consider their lives but in the case of older children and the lies I think divorce is a healthy option. 

The fact that your wife thinks you've moved on too fast just blows my mind. I think it's about time you lighten up and move on with a new life. 

I would consider continuing counseling as far as your own issues. You seem to be headed in a positive direction and it would be ashame to not continue in a positive direction. 

Your story is a valuable lesson in reconciliation and/or false reconciliation.


----------



## GusPolinski

Rugs said:


> ACOA,
> 
> When I read the first few pages of your thread, I really felt like it was almost a full time job for you to monitor your wayward spouse. AND, I thought you were wasting your time.
> 
> She had me fooled too. I'm fooled every time and that's why I personally don't think I could ever be in a serious relationship again.
> 
> But back to my point.
> 
> Your kids are older, your wife gas lighted you mercilessly.....do you want to spend any more time on this marriage?
> 
> I'm not sure where you stand, really. Are you considering reconciliation ? The gas-lighting after DDay 1 bothers me more than the original affair itself. YOUR the one that should be depressed.
> 
> I love how all these "problems" come out AFTER DDAY's.
> 
> I do tend to look at children's ages because I think all parties should consider their lives but in the case of older children and the lies I think divorce is a healthy option.
> 
> The fact that your wife thinks you've moved on too fast just blows my mind. I think it's about time you lighten up and move on with a new life.
> 
> I would consider continuing counseling as far as your own issues. You seem to be headed in a positive direction and it would be ashame to not continue in a positive direction.
> 
> Your story is a valuable lesson in reconciliation and/or false reconciliation.


Rest assured, he's on the "D" Train, and it would seem that he plans to stay onboard through the last stop.

Choo! Choooooooooo!


----------



## Acoa

GusPolinski said:


> Rest assured, he's on the "D" Train, and it would seem that he plans to stay onboard through the last stop.
> 
> Choo! Choooooooooo!



Most definitely. I only wish she realized that is what is best for both of us. She is still stuck in this mentality that she needs to get better for me. She needs to get better Period, not for me. Time will tell.


----------



## tom67

Acoa said:


> Most definitely. I only wish she realized that is what is best for both of us. She is still stuck in this mentality that she needs to get better for me. She needs to get better Period, not for me. Time will tell.


:iagree:
For herself and the kids.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Acoa said:


> She is still stuck in this mentality that she needs to get better for me.


If it helps her get better, then it is all good. You just need to stay strong for yourself and the kids.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Sorry to hear what you've been going through. Is your youngest in counselling? I'm sorry if you've already mentioned it...


----------



## Chuck71

I can see myself venturing through NYC one summer afternoon

catching a summer theatre production and about halfway through,

it hits me....... it's a play about Acoa's journey with his XW

had a great name for the play but it bolted from my knawgin'


----------



## WyshIknew

Acoa said:


> And in other news we talked briefly yesterday. She wanted me to read a certain book on the aftermath of major depression. She also said she was hurt that I was moving on so fast. That I was dating a girl.
> 
> I told her that she is "just a friend" and she had no room to talk. She started crying and left.
> 
> Said "girlfriend" lives 10hrs away. She is in a similar situation and we do enjoy texting and talking to each other.
> 
> STBXW claims she concluded this due to the girls presence on my FB page. But her presence is fairly innocuous. I think it's more likely STBX is reading my private journal. In it I mention that we had phone sex and a mutual attraction. I also mention that I'm glad she lives far away or I would do something dumb.
> 
> I'm thinking I should plant something in my journal to test if she is reading it or not.


To be honest Acoa I'm surprised, and obviously this is because I am reading your STBXW wrong.

I've half expected the "Why don't I give you a free pass and then we'll be even and can rebuild our marriage" response from her.

Perhaps she realises that this isn't part of what makes you tick.


----------



## Acoa

WyshIknew said:


> To be honest Acoa I'm surprised, and obviously this is because I am reading your STBXW wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> I've half expected the "Why don't I give you a free pass and then we'll be even and can rebuild our marriage" response from her.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps she realises that this isn't part of what makes you tick.



She isn't thinking of me. That's why her boundaries fell (along with her panties) and why our marriage is over. 

The only thoughts she has of me relate to how it affects her.


----------



## Acoa

Chuck71 said:


> I can see myself venturing through NYC one summer afternoon
> 
> 
> 
> catching a summer theatre production and about halfway through,
> 
> 
> 
> it hits me....... it's a play about Acoa's journey with his XW
> 
> 
> 
> had a great name for the play but it bolted from my knawgin'



That's not out of the question. It would be even more interesting if STBX and I could co-write it. She is a good writer and has a flair for the dramatic. We could capture the excitement, pain and aftermath of infidelity from both perspectives. 

I have some ideas mulling about. Will probably take some years for me to draft. If it ever makes it to a stage I'll post it to TAM.


----------



## Acoa

HobbesTheTiger said:


> Sorry to hear what you've been going through. Is your youngest in counselling? I'm sorry if you've already mentioned it...



Yes, every week. Same therapist who helped her work through the medical issues last summer. They have a good relationship and D15 gets a lot of strength and affirmation from her visits.


----------



## GusPolinski

WyshIknew said:


> To be honest Acoa I'm surprised, and obviously this is because I am reading your STBXW wrong.
> 
> I've half expected the "Why don't I give you a free pass and then we'll be even and can rebuild our marriage" response from her.
> 
> Perhaps she realises that this isn't part of what makes you tick.


Given the extent of the deception and manipulation, that would have to be one helluva free pass. More like a large booklet of free passes.


----------



## bfree

Acoa, I know from first hand experience how difficult your situation is and although the title of your thread is Need Help Coping you are handling this like a boss. I'm just checking in to offer my support (as always) and to say stay strong it does get better.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

GusPolinski said:


> Given the extent of the deception and manipulation, that would have to be one helluva free pass. More like a large booklet of free passes.


I agree. 

Free pass, which I don't like, seems like an appropriate response when the affair was short lived or once. You can't offer one when you have lied, went to marriage counseling for over a year, made false changes, have MULTIPLE dudes and then you were caught again. 


She knows better. She has done done things that are completely stupid, but she isn't stupid. I hope she does get help, but she could have done the self committing any time during the reconciliation. This is a public play for sympathy in my honest opinion. It is also a manipulation attempt towards Acoa. I keep waiting for the "I am a sex addict, please wait" excuse.


----------



## Acoa

bfree said:


> Acoa, I know from first hand experience how difficult your situation is and although the title of your thread is Need Help Coping you are handling this like a boss. I'm just checking in to offer my support (as always) and to say stay strong it does get better.



Thanks Bfree. It's been a long road and your advice and input has been helpful and insightful. I'm starting down a new road and looking forward to what I find.


----------



## WhiteRaven

Acoa said:


> Thanks Bfree. It's been a long road and your advice and input has been helpful and insightful. I'm starting down a new road and looking forward to what I find.


You found yourself again. It's a pretty good start.


----------



## adriana

Acoa said:


> That's not out of the question. It would be even more interesting if STBX and I could co-write it. She is a good writer and has a flair for the dramatic. We could capture the excitement, pain and aftermath of infidelity from both perspectives.
> 
> I have some ideas mulling about. Will probably take some years for me to draft. If it ever makes it to a stage I'll post it to TAM.



Oh, absolutely! You, and Mr. Mathias, are sitting on million-dollar deal for a book and/or movie script. But you need to hurry.... Diane Lane is getting old and no one else can play adulterous American wife like her.


----------



## LongWalk

Mrs Mathias and STBXMrsAcoa share characteristics: neither sought divorce. Both loved their husbands. Cake eaters who wanted an ego boost. Sorry once caught the second time. Misjudged tolerance of husbands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

LongWalk said:


> Mrs Mathias and STBXMrsAcoa share characteristics: neither sought divorce. Both loved their husbands. Cake eaters who wanted an ego boost. Sorry once caught the second time. Misjudged tolerance of husbands.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There was also nothing less than a metric f*ck ton of trickle-truth between D-Day #1 and D-Day #2 for both. 

Additionally, Mrs. Mathias will always stick out in my mind for lying not only to her husband but to all of TAM as well. Having said that, I certainly hope that they're able to pull through.


----------



## Philat

GusPolinski said:


> Additionally, Mrs. Mathias will always stick out in my mind for lying not only to her husband but to all of TAM as well. Having said that, I certainly hope that they're able to pull through.


I do too, Gus. I know she took a very long route, but I think mrs mathias has arrived at true remorse.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Misjudged tolerance of husbands.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This came up in a conversation where we set up our mediation appointment. She didn't misjudge my tolerance. She knew when I found out it would lead to Divorce. 

She doesn't want a divorce, but she was afraid to tell me at Dday 1 because she was afraid I couldn't get passed the physcial affair. She thought she could stop and pretend it never happened. But then she couldn't stop and then I found out her secret. 

She filed her appearence in response to my pettition and we have mediation scheduled. She is accepting the fact that we need to divorce, and the picture I've painted of what post divorce life will be for her. She is filling out job applications and actively pursuing a full time job. In general she seems to be willing to accpet the terms I'm putting forth. Hopefully that continues to hold true.

She is involved again at the theater. But if you ask me that's a good thing. They are not friends I trust, but they are the right friends for her. I'm sure I could bash that and cause her some difficulties, but I won't. I do not plan to reconcile, so frankly it's none of my business anyway. I'll let go where I should and hope that helps her find some peace and hope it makes her more willing to agree to my terms in the divorce.


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> This came up in a conversation where we set up our mediation appointment. She didn't misjudge my tolerance. She knew when I found out it would lead to Divorce.
> 
> She doesn't want a divorce, but she was afraid to tell me at Dday 1 because she was afraid I couldn't get passed the physcial affair. She thought she could stop and pretend it never happened. But then she couldn't stop and then I found out her secret.
> 
> She filed her appearence in response to my pettition and we have mediation scheduled. She is accepting the fact that we need to divorce, and the picture I've painted of what post divorce life will be for her. She is filling out job applications and actively pursuing a full time job. In general she seems to be willing to accpet the terms I'm putting forth. Hopefully that continues to hold true.
> 
> She is involved again at the theater. But if you ask me that's a good thing. They are not friends I trust, but they are the right friends for her. I'm sure I could bash that and cause her some difficulties, but I won't. I do not plan to reconcile, so frankly it's none of my business anyway. I'll let go where I should and hope that helps her find some peace and hope it makes her more willing to agree to my terms in the divorce.


I'd be interested to know whether or not both of the OMW's are aware of this and, if so, whether or not they're "allowing" their husbands to continue their participation as well.

Not that it matters to you, though.


----------



## Acoa

One moved 1,000 miles away, the other has quit the theater at his wife's request (based what STBX has told me). I'm sure the one guy moved, the other we will see. D20 is involved at the theater, I'm sure I'll hear if he is seen skulking around.

D20 and I were talking the other day and the timing seemed right so I asked her who she thinks should live in the house with them. She said me, because I was more available and actually listen to them. They like that Mom comes over 2 nights a week for dinner. She says it's like she didn't even move out. :/


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> One moved 1,000 miles away, the other has quit the theater at his wife's request (based what STBX has told me). I'm sure the one guy moved, the other we will see. D20 is involved at the theater, I'm sure I'll hear if he is seen skulking around.
> 
> D20 and I were talking the other day and the timing seemed right so I asked her who she thinks should live in the house with them. She said me, because I was more available and actually listen to them. *They like that Mom comes over 2 nights a week for dinner. She says it's like she didn't even move out. :/*


LOL. Sorry. That's sad, but still kind of funny.


----------



## Ripper

Acoa said:


> I do not plan to reconcile, so frankly it's none of my business anyway. I'll let go where I should and hope that helps her find some peace and hope it makes her more willing to agree to my terms in the divorce.


This is about as good an outlook as one can have in a situation like this. Glad to hear things are still proceeding peacefully.


----------



## LongWalk

Getting the job will reduce tension.

She will be sad when you date but so what?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

Acoa said:


> One moved 1,000 miles away, the other has quit the theater at his wife's request (based what STBX has told me). I'm sure the one guy moved, the other we will see. D20 is involved at the theater, I'm sure I'll hear if he is seen skulking around.
> 
> D20 and I were talking the other day and the timing seemed right so I asked her who she thinks should live in the house with them. She said me, because I was more available and actually listen to them. They like that Mom comes over 2 nights a week for dinner. She says it's like she didn't even move out. :/


Man I have been there before...D25 and S21.
Its interesting you mention timing....know that feeling well!
My D25 is well educated...unlike her father , but she is up to speed on her moms past...we have talked.

Isn't it interesting to hear thier perspective of the whole pile of crap me and you call infidelity?

In my case my kid(D25) treats her mom like a child. But in the same breath she has seen me and ...I'm afraid she is scared of my capacity to go bad again.

Anyway my point is how our adult kids bear witness to the sins of there parents.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> She will be sad when you date but so what?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I believe that will be hard for her. I think it will be hard for D15 too, so I'll try to wait a while after everything is final. Will be good for me to have some time anyway. I'm guessing STBX will be in a relationship long before me.


----------



## LongWalk

If she moves on quickly, that will simply show how right your decision not to attempt another R is.

Your STBX still hasn't sent you a letter expressing remorse.


----------



## Acoa

Interesting. STBX logged into FB from the house computer and forgot to log out. "Joe" the dude from my very 1st post in this thread messeged her asking what was up (in response to one of her dramatic posts). She told him her marriage was in trouble and in all likelyhood we were getting divorced.

He then proceeded to state how angry he was at his wife, and how he hated her and was just staying in the marraige for the kids. That maybe he would divorce her next year. 

That was a pretty fast transition on his part. What STBX does with that information isn't really important to me. However I find it very gratifying to see how fast he is moving in on her. I had a bad feeling about this guy, and STBX was very dismissive of my concerns. I'm not sure if she was in denial that he had designs on her, or if she was trying to cover up the beginning of yet another affair. Like I said, the answer to that doesn't really matter. I'm just feeling good that my gut was right. Going all the way back to suspicisions prior to Dday 1, my gut was right.

In some ways I'm angry with myself for the self doubt I let her instill in me. But then again I thought I had a loving partner and it's normal to trust what they say. I trusted her way more than she deserved, and that hurts. But I have not regrets. I gave our relationship many chances and emotionally invested almost to the point of insanity. In the end it wasn't enough. She wanted to keep cake eating and sticking to her lie. And every lie set up the next lie. Every shred of evidence was explained away or where it couldn't be it was trivialized. 

If you are new to this site, have read this and see some similarities in your own story. What is your gut telling you? Mine told me I didn't have the whole truth. But it also told me she loves me (and she does). The henious nature of her actions conflicted with that love. So, I sensed that conflict. I couldn't prove anything or put my finger on it. But if you feel similar, trust it. You are not going crazy.


----------



## GusPolinski

LOL. The open and unfettered access to her Facebook would be sooooo amazingly tempting...

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Ripper

Acoa said:


> He then proceeded to state how angry he was at his wife, and how he hated her and was just staying in the marraige for the kids. That maybe he would divorce her next year.


Would be tempting to forward that on to his wife so she isn't blindsided.


----------



## GusPolinski

Ripper said:


> Acoa said:
> 
> 
> 
> He then proceeded to state how angry he was at his wife, and how he hated her and was just staying in the marraige for the kids. That maybe he would divorce her next year.
> 
> 
> 
> Would be tempting to forward that on to his wife so she isn't blindsided.
Click to expand...

Indeed.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Acoa

Ripper said:


> Would be tempting to forward that on to his wife so she isn't blindsided.



Not a bad idea. Will have to poke around and see if I can figure out her contact info.


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> Not a bad idea. Will have to poke around and see if I can figure out her contact info.


Make sure that you take screenshots of the messages so that it doesn't turn into an episode of "Your Word Versus His!".


----------



## Chuck71

Acoa said:


> He then proceeded to state how angry he was at his wife, and how he hated her and was just staying in the marraige for the kids. That maybe he would divorce her next year.


I attempted to give two schist about Joe's situation with his W

I failed miserably


----------



## CluelessWif

I dealt by never having to wonder again. When we decided to reconcile I told my husband that it would be a long time until forgiveness, but I would never blindly trust again. Six years out from d-day and I have access to everything. Cell phone, Facebook, email, everything. And I check it whenever I like. He knows what kind of contact I want to know about, and he tells me right off the bat, recites the conversation. 

I will tell you a big thing from my time in theatre/renaissance. The couple that plays together stays together. There is a much looser morality in those places. Not that I think they are bad people. Many of them with give you the shirt off their back. But these hobbies are sometimes mixed with the swinger culture, and many of those people see 'serial monogomy' as an unhealthy state. They won't tell you about the cheating. And there are very few ways to discourage people from including you. My husband once had to yell at someone that we are not swingers and I gained a reputation as a cold ***** because I wouldn't participate in 'harmless flirting' and I don't like to be touched by a bunch of people.

You two need to do joint hobbies. They say absence makes the heart grow fonder. I say that's true, the part nobody tells you about is that the heart is growing fonder of someone else.


----------



## Acoa

CluelessWif said:


> I dealt by never having to wonder again. When we decided to reconcile I told my husband that it would be a long time until forgiveness, but I would never blindly trust again. Six years out from d-day and I have access to everything. Cell phone, Facebook, email, everything. And I check it whenever I like. He knows what kind of contact I want to know about, and he tells me right off the bat, recites the conversation.
> 
> 
> 
> I will tell you a big thing from my time in theatre/renaissance. The couple that plays together stays together. There is a much looser morality in those places. Not that I think they are bad people. Many of them with give you the shirt off their back. But these hobbies are sometimes mixed with the swinger culture, and many of those people see 'serial monogomy' as an unhealthy state. They won't tell you about the cheating. And there are very few ways to discourage people from including you. My husband once had to yell at someone that we are not swingers and I gained a reputation as a cold ***** because I wouldn't participate in 'harmless flirting' and I don't like to be touched by a bunch of people.
> 
> 
> 
> You two need to do joint hobbies. They say absence makes the heart grow fonder. I say that's true, the part nobody tells you about is that the heart is growing fonder of someone else.



Tried that 2 years ago CW. Didn't work out for me. R is not going to happen in my case, too much damage done. 

I tried hard to find common interests, anything I claimed to be interested in she claimed not to like. Even things she used to like to do with me. I'm not going to spend a bunch of time at the theater (which I don't enjoy nearly as much as she) just to babysit her and "hope" she doesn't have another affair. 

She knew what contact I wanted to know about, but she still hid it. She actively deceived me on multiple fronts and emasculated me by parading her OM through our home. She would invite them and their spouses over for dinner and pretended like everything was normal. She still has pics of her and them up on her FB wall. If she had a friggin ounce of remorse she would take that sh!t down.


----------



## LongWalk

Too late to click like on them. She'd notice that and go through and delete them all. But that would show that you care and she does not deserve that. She was way too confident of your affection.

She is probably still trying to cope with the loss of identity and affirmation that you provided. She is trying to survive. Having someone like Joe fill her bed must flash through her mind, but the shame of presenting it to your children would be too much. Moreover, she wants to be loved for being a good person. The problem is that she has not been one.

Behaving in a dignified fashion inwardly and outwardly over a period of time is the only way she can climb out of the pit she has dug. But she compartmentalized before and can easily do it again.

Perhaps if she gets a job, she'll begin to reflect more. 

re: Facebook
Maybe some people so buy into the social media that they no longer feel empowered to censor their own history.


----------



## harrybrown

I do hope you find a way to let the OM's wife know about his communication.

How much longer until the D is final?


----------



## Acoa

harrybrown said:


> I do hope you find a way to let the OM's wife know about his communication.
> 
> 
> 
> How much longer until the D is final?



4 months if things go well. If she tries to drag it out then who knows. She says she won't, and I don't think she has the stomach for a fight. So, 4 months will likely happen.


----------



## Acoa

90 min conversation yesterday over coffee. Managed to stay civil, but there were moments I had to breathe deep and bite my tongue.

She wanted to move back into the house and live in the basement. I managed to talk her out of that. /whew. 

She thinks I'm moving the D along to quickly, but she claims to not want to drag it out. No conflicting message there, right. She claims to want to R. I told her that was not going to happen. The best she could hope for is we navigate the D amicably and work together to be good co-parents. 

She then told me she had a Match.com profile up, lol. I didn't say it, but that proves to me how committed she would have been to R.

I worked out how much I'd pay her in alimony, so she is looking for an apartment with one of her girlfriends.


----------



## convert

wouldn't it fit more if she was adult friend finder or a swingers web site?
she would get more hook-ups.

I wonder if her profile says the truth?

she must be very codependent she does not want to be alone.


----------



## Clay2013

I can imagine all the things you wanted to say but its smart to just let her move on with her life. She is clearly broken. Some people just are. Nothing you can do or say will change that in them. 

I personally would have tried to avoid any seriously kind of alimony but I understand it might have been the only thing you could have done to help smooth the process. 

There are much better women out there. 

Take your time. Its worth the wait to find a good one. 

Clay


----------



## LongWalk

Amazing that you could sit and talk for so long, but clearly it will help reinforce the new reality of your lives. Moving back into the basement was her hope. And from there she hoped to get back into the double bed upstairs.

Your STBXW is not a logical person. Or at the very least she believes the rules do not apply to her. She is still learning that you are not crumbling. She no doubt wants you very much. The Match.com profile is childish threat to show that if you don't R, she can replace you. She thinks that you understand that she wants you and not a replacement. She doesn't have the insight to realize Match.com undermines her claim to want R.

She wants to hear you set down conditions: spankings, granny underwear, theater ban.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> She wants to hear you set down conditions: spankings, granny underwear, theater ban.



A gave her a hint at what some of those would have looked like; No theater, no male friends, no GNO, straight to and from work. No lunches or dinners with friends unless I was with. 

I told her those were the less draconian rules. It was quickly after that she conceded that being good co-parents would be a better goal.


----------



## Acoa

As for being able to talk that long without getting into a row, it was easier than I anticipated. When the goal is peaceful separation, rehashing the past isn't the focus. I just kept focus on the future.

D20 mentioned STBX was looking at a place and might sign on it this week. So, I'm guessing I'm falling into some plans she had already made. I think she wants to be sure she has an income stream and insurance coverage until she lands a job.


----------



## Turin74

Call me an old school conservative b $_#$$ ard, but for me most of all of these rules all are OK even for normal healthy marriages. Nothing too draconian. 

I'm considering spanking though...




Acoa said:


> A gave her a hint at what some of those would have looked like; No theater, no male friends, no GNO, straight to and from work. No lunches or dinners with friends unless I was with.
> 
> I told her those were the less draconian rules. It was quickly after that she conceded that being good co-parents would be a better goal.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acoa

Turin74 said:


> Call me an old school conservative b $_#$$ ard, but for me most of all of these rules all are OK even for normal healthy marriages. Nothing too draconian.
> 
> I'm considering spanking though...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_



Lol, spanking is for healthy relationships.


----------



## Turin74

Good spanking keeps relationship healthy 

Acoa, may I please ask you a question? It's more of a curiosity, so please feel free to tell me to beep off. 

Are you saying you basically told your w 'if you accept these rules there it is a chance for us in the future' and she said basically 'nah, I'd rather stay single'?



Acoa said:


> Turin74 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Call me an old school conservative b $_#$$ ard, but for me most of all of these rules all are OK even for normal healthy marriages. Nothing too draconian.
> 
> I'm considering spanking though...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, spanking is for healthy relationships.
Click to expand...

 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## GusPolinski

Turin74 said:


> Good spanking keeps relationship healthy
> 
> Acoa, may I please ask you a question? It's more of a curiosity, so please feel free to tell me to beep off.
> 
> Are you saying you basically told your w 'if you accept these rules there it is a chance for us in the future' and she said basically 'nah, I'd rather stay single'?


To me it reads like it was more of a "If I'd decided to reconcile, these are the ground rules that I'd have insisted upon..." type of conversation from OP's perspective and she basically said that she wouldn't have been able to live w/ those concessions anyway.

And yet... She still wants to reconcile. Or, at the very least, to slow down the pace of the divorce. :scratchhead:


----------



## Turin74

Yeah, saying the same thing in a different way. .. And wondering about the same thing. 

You see, through all the sophistication of the TAM marriage framework and jargon (early today in the meeting I said 'the client will go 180 on us if we don't do this' believe me or not) naive yours truly is still trying to see the concept of 'does she love him out not'.

Feel like a child writing this. Apologies for the thread jack




GusPolinski said:


> Turin74 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good spanking keeps relationship healthy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acoa, may I please ask you a question? It's more of a curiosity, so please feel free to tell me to beep off.
> 
> Are you saying you basically told your w 'if you accept these rules there it is a chance for us in the future' and she said basically 'nah, I'd rather stay single'?
> 
> 
> 
> To me it reads like it was more of a "If I'd decided to reconcile, these are the ground rules that I'd have insisted upon..." type of conversation from OP's perspective and she basically said that she wouldn't have been able to live w/ them anyway.
> 
> And yet... She still wants to reconcile. Or, at the very least, to slow down the pace of the divorce.
Click to expand...

 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Ripper

Acoa said:


> I worked out how much I'd pay her in alimony,


You have been like a rock during all of this, but paying alimony has got to suck. Especially given these circumstances. Can it be renegotiated when/if she gets remarried or gains employment?


----------



## BobSimmons

LongWalk said:


> Amazing that you could sit and talk for so long, but clearly it will help reinforce the new reality of your lives. Moving back into the basement was her hope. And from there she hoped to get back into the double bed upstairs.
> 
> Your STBXW is not a logical person. Or at the very least she believes the rules do not apply to her. She is still learning that you are not crumbling. She no doubt wants you very much. The *Match.com profile is childish threat to show that if you don't R, she can replace you. She thinks that you understand that she wants you and not a replacement. She doesn't have the insight to realize Match.com undermines her claim to want R.*
> 
> She wants to hear you set down conditions: spankings, granny underwear, theater ban.


This, she says she wants to R, then when rejected throws in match.com. I'd go further than to say childish, it actually shows the level of detachment and more over the lack of respect she HAD for you. She may be finding a stronger man in front of her at the moment but as soon as she didn't get her way she returned to her usual coping method to make herself feel better..dumping all over you. I wouldn't be shocked if she got some kind of satisfaction over you from her cheating.

She's beyond repair, I'd watch out just in case she becomes desperate and start flirting heavy and offering sex.


----------



## LongWalk

Acoa is happy that she is not threatening self harm. He wants her to pay attention to their children.

As to R, he knows that the only minor off chance of that would depend on how she behaves after divorce. If after splitting, she was respectful, remorseful and chaste, he might examine the new woman. She would also have to be generous towards him while working hard to pay for at least her fair share.

She'd also have to time her transformation to slip into an empty slot in his dating schedule.

Smart money is not betting on her to make the effort.


----------



## GusPolinski

LongWalk said:


> Acoa is happy that she is not threatening self harm. He wants her to pay attention to their children.


Well... To be fair, was she ever? Really?

To me that entire episode read more like a performance than anything else.


----------



## Acoa

Turin74 said:


> Good spanking keeps relationship healthy
> 
> Acoa, may I please ask you a question? It's more of a curiosity, so please feel free to tell me to beep off.
> 
> Are you saying you basically told your w 'if you accept these rules there it is a chance for us in the future' and she said basically 'nah, I'd rather stay single'?
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_



No, she had asked if I even gave R a thought. I said I had, and that was the 'best' scenario I could come up with. That even with that I don't know I could ever "get past" the betrayal emotionally. Then I asked her if that sounded like a healthy way to live? And she replied no.


----------



## Acoa

Ripper said:


> You have been like a rock during all of this, but paying alimony has got to suck. Especially given these circumstances. Can it be renegotiated when/if she gets remarried or gains employment?



I'm trying to limit it to 2 years, but in my county most judges only sign if it's permanent, which would royally suck. It would end if she cohabitates with a man or remarries. If she got a job that paid well I could petition the court to change the amount, but no guaranty.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Smart money is not betting on her to make the effort.



Winner winner chicken dinner.


----------



## Acoa

GusPolinski said:


> Well... To be fair, was she ever? Really?
> 
> 
> 
> To me that entire episode read more like a performance than anything else.



Hard to say. It would have been cowardly way out of having to face her demons. She has proven she is a coward by not confessing more to me 2 years ago.

Nobody but her really knows the truth. I'll assume her breakdown was genuine. If it was then it's best for my kids that I support that viewpoint, if it was not, then it's best for me legally to assume it was. A suicidal person with chronic depression is not the best choice for residential custody.


----------



## Turin74

Oh well, better than I thought. Looks like you have an ability to make the point. 



Acoa said:


> Turin74 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good spanking keeps relationship healthy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acoa, may I please ask you a question? It's more of a curiosity, so please feel free to tell me to beep off.
> 
> Are you saying you basically told your w 'if you accept these rules there it is a chance for us in the future' and she said basically 'nah, I'd rather stay single'?
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, she had asked if I even gave R a thought. I said I had, and that was the 'best' scenario I could come up with. That even with that I don't know I could ever "get past" the betrayal emotionally. Then I asked her if that sounded like a healthy way to live? And she replied no.
Click to expand...

 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acoa

STBX found a condo with a GF from the theater. She has started packing up some of her things into moving boxes during her time at the house with the kids. They will all be gone this weekend at a family reunion on her side. So, I'll have the house to myself. First weekend alone since this all went down. 

My mother is still in town, so we are going to have dinner Friday night. I'm planning to root around in the garden Saturday morning, then go to a jazz festival going on nearby. May even ride my bike instead of drive so I can let my hair down and imbibe in a few more adult beverages than would be legal to drive after drinking. 

We have a pretty good grasp on custody and parenting time, so the lawyer is drawing up the parenting plan. The division of assets is still up in the air, both financially and the physical 'stuff'. Honestly I care less about the stuff. I've told her the things I absolutely want, she is fine with it. The strange thing is I'll be living in 'her' house for 3 years. So, while I'll pack away her knick nacks and what nots, most of the furnishing will be hers after I move out.


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> The strange thing is I'll be living in 'her' house for 3 years. So, while I'll pack away her knick nacks and what nots, most of the furnishing will be hers after I move out.


Wait... what?


----------



## Acoa

GusPolinski said:


> Wait... what?


Yeah, strange story there. 

The house we currently live in was her grandmother's house. We bought it from Grandma, and Grandma is our mortgage company. 

So, the deal with Grandma goes out the window if I take the house from STBXW and I have to pony up all the money. I don't think I could qualify for a conventional mortgage to pay off the remaing amount to Grandma. So, that would just get plain ole ugly.

Made a deal with STBX that she can have the house, but I get to live in it for 3 years. I'll lease the house from her, so that we have a contract in place regarding who is responsible for what. 

But the kicker is, what do about comunal property that the kids can benift from (couches, tables, ect, ect). No point to have her pack it up and pay for storage if the kids and I continue to use it. Then when I move out, I leave that **** behind. 

I feel like that is going to make it harder on me, as I'll be kind of 'stuck' in a limbo where she still has a lot of influence over me (now as a landlady). But the kids are really happy with the arrangement as there is almost no disruption/change in thier lives and routines. So, I'll do it for the kids. But yeah, wasn't my first choice. But the alternative is she moves back in and we go to court and fight over the house. I didn't like that idea much either.


----------



## GusPolinski

Just make sure that you *get it all in writing!!!*


----------



## Lostinthought61

wait who has been paying the mortgage all this time...is there no equity?


----------



## Acoa

I'll get half the equity via trade off with my stock options. She gets the house, I get to keep my options. It works out fair enough. Still need to settle on who pays off some of our medical debt, i'm thinking she takes hers, i take mine, and we split the kids 60/40 (I get the burden of course, as I'm the breadwinner). I'll take the 2nd house up in streamwood (underwater old primary residence, now being rented out). I'll hold back part of my 401K to pay for her part of our loss on that property. She will still get a pretty nice chunck of money. 

If it's an asset she would win in court, i'll let her have it. I'm fighting to not pay her permenant maintenance. Which, in my county, with our income disparity she would probably win in court. So, I'm going to be generous on the asset side to ensure she signs the settlement agreement.


----------



## Ripper

Acoa said:


> I'm fighting to not pay her permenant maintenance. Which, in my county, with our income disparity she would probably win in court.


Men have fought wars over injustice's like this.

Its hard to defend marriage when you see things like this everyday. She probably seemed like a safe bet years ago when you got married. Then she changed, got bored, and then committed infidelity. Now she gets half of all assets and the possibility of permanent spousal support. 

Example #3,932,823,921 of why marriage is a bad idea given the current legal/political climate. :rant:

Anyway, I hope it all works out as planned. I won't call it a "good deal", just the best you could hope for.


----------



## Chaparral

How hard have you looked for the financing to pay for the house. Is her granny that supporting of your wife? She may be more willing to keep on good terms with a son in law than you think?


----------



## Acoa

It's the other grandparent, and it's possible she would stay out of it to keep the check coming every month. 

But the long and short of it is, I don't want the house. I just want the 3 more years with the kids.


----------



## LongWalk

Perhaps all the money and freedom will get her to let go. Would be a good way for her to recover psychologically.

In three years time how much of the equity in the house will be paid off?


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Perhaps all the money and freedom will get her to let go. Would be a good way for her to recover psychologically.
> 
> In three years time how much of the equity in the house will be paid off?


I hope she does pull her $h1t together. I dont' mind her getting half the assets. We were married for 23 years, the first 15 were fine. It just got progressively worse the last 8, and now it's to the point of no return. 2 years ago she had the chance to turn it around and instead she just made it worse. My hope is this bottoms her out and she recovers. My fear is she still has a long way to fall. I think of her as a recovering addict and her drug of choice is praise and adoration. 

The house will be about 1/3 paid off in 3 more years. Between her own earning power, the 2 years of maintenance I will be paying and the assets she will get in the divorce, finances will only be a problem if she is irresponsible. Which with her, is a possibility. 

If she melts down between now and then, we will have to see how that plays out. I would work with her Grandmother on foreclosing on the house against STBX. Not sure if I would buy it back or just sell it and move out. Hopefully not a choice I'll ever have to make, so I won't at this point.


----------



## Acoa

So hard not to want to destroy her in the D. She is telling everyone that she wants to R, but my heart is hard and it's me that wants the D. 

Then I find out from one of my sources that she is still in contact with the morman. Apparently she called to apologize that I tried to ruin his marriage along with mine. WTF? I don't have any eyes on theater boy, but at least I got confirmation his wife knows the truth. 

There is more crazy in her than I imagined. Resisting the urge to get pulled into the vortex with her.


----------



## manticore

tell every one that every OM you found and every affair you found hardened your heart to the point of no return (I mean 3 EA and 2 PA confirmed), and that you were reconsidering R when you found she contacted mormon OM (yeah the classic cheating technique where you give excuses in base of new information to do something you were already planing on doing anyway)


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Acoa said:


> So hard not to want to destroy her in the D. She is telling everyone that she wants to R, but my heart is hard and it's me that wants the D.
> 
> Then I find out from one of my sources that she is still in contact with the morman. Apparently she called to apologize that I tried to ruin his marriage along with mine. WTF? I don't have any eyes on theater boy, but at least I got confirmation his wife knows the truth.
> 
> There is more crazy in her than I imagined. Resisting the urge to get pulled into the vortex with her.


See, you document all of this and take your lumps. It is hard, but swallow your pride a bit. Your real friends will know the truth or you can tell them. The others, who side with her, do not need to be in the loop.

"She cheated" should be good enough for anyone, no matter what level of remorse she shows. If not, who needs them? Your parents, eventually your children and after that who cares who knows the truth.


----------



## LongWalk

As long as she doesn't draw your children into take sides, just let it slide. As to reconciliation, tell her that through the grapevine you keep hearing about a remorseful woman and hard-hearted man. If she is so keen on R, tell her to write a time line of all her extramarital affairs.

Give her 48 hours per man.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Nope, I disagree with you on this one LW. His wife is a good liar, conniving and smart. Do not tell her crap. She probably knows you have a source or just knows people will tell you. She is using these people to get another chance at "R" and keep you on edge.


----------



## Acoa

I'm trying to get over her and move on. Best not to engage other than as required for co-parenting and the divorce process. 

You guys are correct , the ones who need to know do. I just need to focus on me and the kids. It's just hard to change gears after 25 yrs.


----------



## LongWalk

Acoa is sharp and knows his wife. She believes she can gain forgiveness because she has an open heart, i.e., she forgives herself. Acoa has done everything right since Dday2. He should just push forward in the matter of divorce. 

Getting her to write a timeline would simply strengthen his resolve because she would either be dishonest or she would reveal the perfidy of her carnal and emotional appetites. 

He already knows enough to bury her. I can't remember which OM she masturbated with but she did. And he asked her whether she liked feeling cum inside her. She should have been outraged but she was flattered. All Acoa has to read is a few more sentences like this and he will go cold inside.

And even if he should lose his mind and reconcile with her. It should only be after divorce. 

The best now should be to get the divorce through. Let her believe that R is possible if that is her desire. Acoa does not have to make any false promises.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You suggested contact, with a mention of R, to get the timeline. I disagree and think he should just move on. 

False hope doesn't just entail an active "we will R if you do this" it can be passive as well.



> As to reconciliation, tell her that through the grapevine you keep hearing about a remorseful woman and hard-hearted man. If she is so keen on R, tell her to write a time line of all her extramarital affairs.


Yes, there wasn't an actual promise of R, but it can be inferred and give her hope.

Everything else you typed is true, we just disagree on the contact and trying to get a timeline. He knows the details of the bad crap, if he needs more strength than the truth he knows, a timeline isn't going to help IMO.


----------



## JWTBL

I wish I could just take all these hurting people who have been betrayed by their spouses and give them a great big bear hug. All I can say is thank God for this forum, it is getting me through some pretty lonely, confusing times.


----------



## LongWalk

Agreed. There is nothing much to do but move on. Acoa is still angry but this natural.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Rugs

ACOA, I said it before and I'll say it again, anyone who blows a second chance is the worst offender. Your thread pi$$es me off for your sake every time I see it pop up. 

Sorry it's hard but you're on the right path. 

I loved smoking and miss cigarettes every day for the past 13 years but they're not good for me so I stay away from them.


----------



## Acoa

Just got back from a new divorce support group meeting. Was good, very informal and social oriented. Was good to get out and talk. The group is large (over 300 members) with several spin off groups catering to specific interests (movies, books, camping, ext). Very promising. Oh, and hit on twice. So not ready for that, but nice to know I still got it.

I like Rugs analogy to the ex being like smoking. I'm at the withdrawal stage. I'll get over it. Need a little more time to detox, then time to replace with healthy habits.


----------



## LongWalk

It's going to be harder for your STBXW because she faces a fork in the road. She is either going to turn to other men to escape responsibility or she going awaken to face it. If she truly had insight into the pain she has caused Acoa, she might actually express genuine remorse. That would make things tougher for ACOA.


----------



## bfree

LongWalk said:


> It's going to be harder for your STBXW because she faces a fork in the road. She is either going to turn to other men to escape responsibility or she going awaken to face it. If she truly had insight into the pain she has caused Acoa, she might actually express genuine remorse. That would make things tougher for ACOA.


I am pretty sure I know which fork she'll take. She doesn't seem strong enough to face anything. She'll run to the arms of another man for strength and validation.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

bfree said:


> I am pretty sure I know which fork she'll take. She doesn't seem strong enough to face anything. She'll run to the arms of another man for strength and validation.


Yeah, once divorced, I think that she'll be forking up a storm.

Heck, I doubt that she'll even be able to hold out until the D is final. She'll be in need of and looking for attention soon I think...


----------



## Dyokemm

Acoa,

I would keep that contact with Mormon POS in your back pocket.

I think your WW is going to make once last, big charm/remorse offensive asking for R when you get close to the finalization of the D.

I think her messages to others about how she wants R but your heart is hard is an attempt to win allies for herself when she broaches the subject with you.

When it happens, just break out her apology to this POS about the consequences you tried to bring to him for the destruction he reigned down on her own BH and kids.

Protecting POS and having sorrow that you tried to inform his own betrayed family is not evidence that demonstrates she really even understands what would be necessary to R her own destroyed family and M.


----------



## NoRush

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Yeah, once divorced, I think that she'll be forking up a storm.
> 
> Heck, I doubt that she'll even be able to hold out until the D is final. She'll be in need of and looking for attention soon I think...


And if she does, get evidence. Another nail in the coffin.


----------



## LongWalk

If she starts sleeping with someone, that will be a new act of infidelity against her claim of desiring R.


----------



## Acoa

Spent some time yesterday getting bills and accounts all converted over to my name and email. The gas bill was tied to an old email that STBX stopped using over a year ago. I recovered the password to that and logged in so I could get the gas account password. For kicks I did a search on OM names to see if there were any emails to or about them amongst the spam. 

Found a letter from the long term afair partner's wife to my STBX. Now that's some hate mail. I won't share the whole thing, but here is a noteworthy excerpt:

"You confided your marital frustrations to both OM and I and we extended friendship and trust. You took that trust and shat on it via text message and in the Theatre green room, prop room, make-up room and wherever else you engaged in your sordid, pathetic, little acts of adultery. Not only did you do this, but you carried on to my face as if you were still my friend and wished me well.

....

For all that you have done to me and to your family the last few years, here is one back: 
[email protected] YOU"


----------



## convert

^^^ I know it is an old email but go-head and forward it to you STBXW new email.

Give her a reminder.


----------



## Acoa

convert said:


> ^^^ I know it is an old email but go-head and forward it to you STBXW new email.
> 
> Give her a reminder.


Nah, she couldn't figure out how to recover this email account. I'll just send her the password and let her discover it on her own. Not my circus, not my monkey. I'll refrain from poking her with a stick just to watch the reaction.


----------



## GusPolinski

How long ago was the e-mail sent? Just wondering if she knew about the affair before you did... and didn't tell you.


----------



## Acoa

GusPolinski said:


> How long ago was the e-mail sent? Just wondering if she knew about the affair before you did... and didn't tell you.


From a few days after I notified her. She addresses me in the intro and apologizes again for the pain her husband and my STBX caused our family. Amazing, OM's wife has more empathy for me than STBX. 

Then a few paragraphs that would be almost completely screened out by the bad word filter. Then notice that she would love to go public at the theater with what a back stabbing sociopath STBX is, but because we have kids that participate she will silently withdrawl. Not out of fear or embarrasment, but to show someone cares about our family even if STBX doesn't. 

I have a feeling my STBX has made a lifelong enemy out of someone who lives near and has many long standing social ties at the theater she loves so much. Someday it will come back to bite her. Karma's a MF'r.


----------



## GusPolinski

Just curious... has she chosen to reconcile w/ her husband?

What about the other BW?


----------



## Acoa

GusPolinski said:


> Just curious... has she chosen to reconcile w/ her husband?
> 
> What about the other BW?


I infer from the tone of her letter that she is attempting to R with her husband. But I have no direct information.

I have no information about the other BW. I know from a source that that OM has been in contact with STBX. He lives 1000 miles away now. I assume he gas lit her good and she is in the dark on it. Hopefully she is a little suspicious and is paying attention on her end. I led her to water, can't make her drink it.


----------



## Ripper

Acoa said:


> Amazing, OM's wife has more empathy for me than STBX.


The question I have never be able to answer. Was the person you married always like this or did they change while you weren't looking?

The more layers you peel back, the more you realize your ex wasn't such a prize after all.


----------



## bfree

Ripper said:


> The question I have never be able to answer. Was the person you married always like this or did they change while you weren't looking?
> 
> The more layers you peel back, the more you realize your ex wasn't such a prize after all.


In so many ways we wear blinders and rose colored glasses. Its shocking when those optical accouterments come off and we see reality for what it is.


----------



## LongWalk

Didn't one OM feel that your wife used and discarded him without regard for his feelings?

He was surprized, too, by her lack of empathy.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Didn't one OM feel that your wife used and discarded him without regard for his feelings?
> 
> He was surprized, too, by her lack of empathy.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_



Lol, yeah the Mormon. Said my wife was evil and out to destroy him now that she was through with him. But I hear they are talking again. 

It's a special kind of crazy for sure.


----------



## LongWalk

She no doubt finds the "new" Acoa enigmatic. I would venture that she she tells sympathetic ears that you are much colder, harder and crueler than she imagined.

She is trying to determine if you changed or merely concealed your true nature. At first she thought she knew you. But you are not a doormat.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## bfree

LongWalk said:


> She no doubt finds the "new" Acoa enigmatic. I would venture that she she tells sympathetic ears that you are much colder, harder and crueler than she imagined.
> 
> She is trying to determine if you changed or merely concealed your true nature. At first she thought she knew you. But you are not a doormat.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Nope, not a doormat. Just a man that wanted to make sure he had no regrets.


----------



## Acoa

bfree said:


> Nope, not a doormat. Just a man that wanted to make sure he had no regrets.



And I have none. I was thinking about saying something snarky like I regret marrying her in the first place. But I don't. I have 3 awesome kids, a bunch of cool in-laws (now out-laws, lol). Plus we had a bunch of good times before the bad years set in.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Well, you gave it your all and that's all any person can do. You gave her a new chance, you worked on your side of the problems and you did your best to save the marriage. You can make up some up if you like, but you shouldn't feel guilty or have any serious regrets.


----------



## harrybrown

I do hope you let the poor wife of the mormon OM know what is going on. She needs to know that he is still at it.

She needs to have the information. I do hope you find a way to let her know.


----------



## Acoa

harrybrown said:


> I do hope you let the poor wife of the mormon OM know what is going on. She needs to know that he is still at it.
> 
> 
> 
> She needs to have the information. I do hope you find a way to let her know.



She has me blocked and told me not to contact her or she will report me for harassment. I know a couple of mutual friends, if I ever get good evidence I'll get it to her via an intermediary.


----------



## Turin74

Some people prefer to stay blind.... hoping it'll 'go away'



Acoa said:


> harrybrown said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do hope you let the poor wife of the mormon OM know what is going on. She needs to know that he is still at it.
> 
> 
> 
> She needs to have the information. I do hope you find a way to let her know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She has me blocked and told me not to contact her or she will report me for harassment. I know a couple of mutual friends, if I ever get good evidence I'll get it to her via an intermediary.
Click to expand...

 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Turin74 said:


> Some people prefer to stay blind.... hoping it'll 'go away'
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


OR, more likely, pray that it all goes away.


----------



## Turin74

Very pIc joke... perhaps for her 2 or more women in her man life is not such a shocker?




GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Turin74 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some people prefer to stay blind.... hoping it'll 'go away'
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
> 
> 
> 
> OR, more likely, pray that it all goes away.
Click to expand...

 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acoa

I'm reviewing the 1st draft of our joint parenting agreement. There are a few edits to make, can't wait to see how she handles telling me she spent all the money for her lawyer on her new apartment.

Maybe she will just avoid that conversation and sign it. It's more than fair. The only thing in it that she might not like is that the decision making authority is skewed a bit in my favor. But given her poor choices lately I feel that it's reasonable.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Acoa said:


> I'm reviewing the 1st draft of our joint parenting agreement. There are a few edits to make, can't wait to see how she handles telling me she spent all the money for her lawyer on her new apartment.
> 
> Maybe she will just avoid that conversation and sign it. It's more than fair. The only thing in it that she might not like is that the decision making authority is skewed a bit in my favor. But given her poor choices lately I feel that it's reasonable.


If she won't sign it, are you going to tell her that you'll be going the lawyer root?

If so, I wonder what she would do if you said that you are filing D under adultery and you will have the OM's subpoenaed to testify. 

If they don't purger, than it'll be tough for her to rebuff the adultery... I bet she signs that thing mighty fast after she plays the scenario out in her head.

I know that D'ing for adultery probably won't gain much in cash, or custody, but I would think that she would do just about anything to avoid her and the OM's in having to take the stand and be questioned in court.


----------



## Acoa

If she doesn't sign it I'll push through the lawyer route. I would do better in court than I'm offering. It would just cost more in legal fees. I'm basically offering to pay her rather than the lawyers. 

No need to change my claims in the petition for D. I have mental cruelty in it already, the burden of proof is easier than adultery and there is no benefit in my state in going for adultery, in fact it often backfires as the judge sees it as frivolous and vindictive.


----------



## Dyokemm

"there is no benefit in my state in going for adultery, in fact it often backfires as the judge sees it as frivolous and vindictive."

Just another sign of the utter, f*cking stupidity of the current legal system.

I cannot think of a dumber reaction to the problems and damages that infidelity inflicts on society.

Either they a mentally deficient or think that they themselves may one day need the leniency of the court system to deal with their own crappy marital behavior if it is ever exposed.


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> I have mental cruelty in it already


... which is a perfect definition of adultery. Glad it is not a 'irreconcilable differences' or some other PCBS.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Turin74

You see this is the whole problem. I understand all the reasons behind 'no-fault' etc. Not making each divorce case a criminal case and all. But this creates an inherent issue: legal system treats marriage like a contract (division of assets, spousal aluminum, etc) yet it fails to recognise the main contract breaching clause. 

Acoa, sorry for the thread jack.



Dyokemm said:


> "there is no benefit in my state in going for adultery, in fact it often backfires as the judge sees it as frivolous and vindictive."
> 
> Just another sign of the utter, f*cking stupidity of the current legal system.
> 
> I cannot think of a dumber reaction to the problems and damages that infidelity inflicts on society.
> 
> Either they a mentally deficient or think that they themselves may one day need the leniency of the court system to deal with their own crappy marital behavior if it is ever exposed.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acoa

Turin74 said:


> You see this is the whole problem. I understand all the reasons behind 'no-fault' etc. Not making each divorce case a criminal case and all. But this creates an inherent issue: legal system treats marriage like a contract (division of assets, spousal aluminum, etc) yet it fails to recognise the main contract breaching clause.
> 
> Acoa, sorry for the thread jack.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_



NP, and as long as we are digressing...

It's all about cost and burden on the legal system. If fault mattered every divorce would take an enormous amount of the court's time. They would have to switch to a pay by the hour arrangement to keep the burden off of the taxpayers, then that opens a whole can of worms (wouldn't the court then be incentivized to drag the case out? And how only the wealthy could afford to participate.)

I don't like it, but I understand it. Maybe we should return to the good old days where the adulterers are stoned to death in the public square? That would be one heck of a deterrent.


----------



## Turin74

Well, as I mentioned I understand the burden - that's what I meant by 'not making it the criminal case'. But again, when it comes to assets and finances and all marital law sees the marriage as a contract. However it does not recognise the breach of the contract, which is a cornerstone of a contract law. Which makes the whole thing way unbalanced (I'd say unfair, but we all know legal system is not about fairness). Where the free economy would be if the contract law would not diffetentiate contract end and contract breach?

P.s. I respect your calm attitude, considering the 'severity' of your situation and the fact that you are going through exactly this stage.



Acoa said:


> Turin74 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You see this is the whole problem. I understand all the reasons behind 'no-fault' etc. Not making each divorce case a criminal case and all. But this creates an inherent issue: legal system treats marriage like a contract (division of assets, spousal aluminum, etc) yet it fails to recognise the main contract breaching clause.
> 
> Acoa, sorry for the thread jack.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NP, and as long as we are digressing...
> 
> It's all about cost and burden on the legal system. If fault mattered every divorce would take an enormous amount of the court's time. They would have to switch to a pay by the hour arrangement to keep the burden off of the taxpayers, then that opens a whole can of worms (wouldn't the court then be incentivized to drag the case out? And how only the wealthy could afford to participate.)
> 
> I don't like it, but I understand it. Maybe we should return to the good old days where the adulterers are stoned to death in the public square? That would be one heck of a deterrent.
Click to expand...

 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Acoa said:


> NP, and as long as we are digressing...
> 
> It's all about cost and burden on the legal system. If fault mattered every divorce would take an enormous amount of the court's time. They would have to switch to a pay by the hour arrangement to keep the burden off of the taxpayers, then that opens a whole can of worms (wouldn't the court then be incentivized to drag the case out? And how only the wealthy could afford to participate.)
> 
> I don't like it, but I understand it. Maybe we should return to the good old days where the adulterers are stoned to death in the public square? That would be one heck of a deterrent.


I've actually suggested that on occasion. Not serious....probably...


----------



## Acoa

Turin74 said:


> Where the free economy would be if the contract law would not diffetentiate contract end and contract breach?
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_



The D process does, breach allows you to terminate the contract. In order to get compensated you have to prove you suffered financial consequences. This is true in any contract. Some contracts spell out that amount as part of the contract. In my state if you want you can catalog what is called "dissipation". This would include any money she spent on maintaining her affairs or didn't earn because she missed work. The problem is that in cases like mine it would cost more in lawyer fees to do the discovery and document it than it's worth. But in cases where the WS was taking vacations or paying for expensive hotel rooms or renting an apartment, it may be worth it. You can claim this even if you don't file for grounds of adultery.


----------



## Turin74

Acoa said:


> The D process does, breach allows you to terminate the contract.


Could you please elaborate how (within the context of no at fault legislation)?

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acoa

Turin74 said:


> Could you please elaborate how (within the context of no at fault legislation)?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


I will qualify this as being based on the state I live in, can't speak for others. 

You can file for D, but ultimately it's the judge who decides if he will grant it or not. So, it is possible that under the right circumstances you could file for D and the judge could say no, and order mandatory MC. It's unlikely if both parties want out, but if he thinks there is a chance, it's within the judges toolkit.

You can file for several 'fault' reasons; Adultery, mental cruelty, physical abuse, alienation of affection, felony conviction (maybe some others, I'd have to check); or you can file for the 'no fault' reason of irreconcilable differences. The only real difference is that for fault, you only have to live "separate and apart" for six months. With irreconcilable differences you must wait 12 months. 

Irreconcilable differences is found to be true if both parties agree that they have some difference, that difference can be anything. The only condition is that both parties must agree that the difference is irreconcilable and that they cannot continue the marriage due to that difference. 

All of this gets you to the point where the judge agrees that the marriage contract is void. That's it, once that is decided to be true, then begins the division of marital assets. At this point, if you can clearly define what assets were yours coming into the marriage you can keep those. You split 50/50 what was earned during the marriage. Child support is a formula. Spousal maintenance can be argued and it's up to the judge to decide what to apply. It's during the division of assets and discussions on spousal maintenance that you can influence the outcome based on the other parties behavior. Even if you used irreconcilable difference, you can say that difference is "she wanted to screw other people and I didn't want her to" and that she spent $xxx in expenses and gifts to support her affairs, so I get to keep that much money in marital assets in offset for what she wasted during the marriage. 

You don't need to prove adultery to be awarded the extra money because of dissipation. The burden of proof for adultery is difficult. You only have to prove she was spending money on the AP and that you either had no knowledge of it or did and didn't approve. You only need to prove she spent the money. 

For example, let's say she paid for 10 nights of a $100 hotel room. You don't have to prove she had sex in that hotel room. You only have to prove that she hid it from you and was wasting marital assets behind your back conducting some type of activity that didn't support your marriage. 

It only makes sense to go after it if the WS spent a lot of money on the affairs. But I guess the point is, the no fault part only applies to get approval to end the contract (be granted the D); If you can prove you were financially harmed by the other parties actions during the contract there is a way to recover the amount you were actually harmed (much like you could in any civil contract dispute). 

Now, this doesn't address the fact that you may feel the WS doesn't deserve any support after the D. Yet if the BS was the breadwinner, they are still going to have to pay. That part sucks and even if you prove adultery would still apply and suck just as bad. Much like my situation where I'm paying my wife to get out of my life. She doesn't deserve it. But I can either pay her now, or pay the lawyers and then pay her later. I might as well save the legal fees. I'd be paying both lawyers, so the money would flow out of my pockets in a great flood and I'd be bankrupt inside of a few short months. That is where the system is broke. I'll be lucky if she accepts what I'm giving her. If she decides to make some unreasonable request, then it's going to get stupid ugly.


----------



## Turin74

Well, that is definitely the part we agree on. Could write a lengthy response here but then we are starting to sound like two lawyers in the bar. Would be sufficient to say that in my "jurisdiction" what you describe qualifies more like "premature contract termination", rather than material contract breach.

Besides, let me be clear: never questioned or suggested your strategy/approach is wrong or even a subject of discussion. That's why I apologised for the thread jack, as it was all abstract "I wish justice system is fair".



Acoa said:


> Now, this doesn't address the fact that you may feel the WS doesn't deserve any support after the D. Yet if the BS was the breadwinner, they are still going to have to pay. That part sucks and even if you prove adultery would still apply and suck just as bad. Much like my situation where I'm paying my wife to get out of my life. She doesn't deserve it. But I can either pay her now, or pay the lawyers and.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## LongWalk

One interesting part about spousal support is the concept. A SAH mom or dad was an equal contributor in a marriage. Their labor is assigned a value and they continue to be compensated for it after divorce. Spousal support can, in some cases, mean there is no need to work at a new job. Even if the children are no longer small.

The labor that they contributed vanishes from the working ex spouses life. All of that labor must be replaced by a new partner who takes on the SH spouse role. Alternatively the divorced bread winner must hire help, e.g., babysitters, or work more at home.

Enriching lawyers is foolish.

If your wife has any sincere desire to reconcile, she should take whatever you offer.


----------



## Chaparral

Acoa said:


> NP, and as long as we are digressing...
> 
> It's all about cost and burden on the legal system. If fault mattered every divorce would take an enormous amount of the court's time. They would have to switch to a pay by the hour arrangement to keep the burden off of the taxpayers, then that opens a whole can of worms (wouldn't the court then be incentivized to drag the case out? And how only the wealthy could afford to participate.)
> 
> I don't like it, but I understand it. Maybe we should return to the good old days where the adulterers are stoned to death in the public square? That would be one heck of a deterrent.


This doesn't take into account that when no fault divorce was instituted the divorce rate exploded due to the ease of getting a divorce.

Just like a woman I know that divorce her husband and broke up her family because she didn't think her husband was emotionally there for her when her mother died.


----------



## naiveonedave

that is an interesting concept. How much $ should the court assume a SAH parent should make now that they are D'd. Given the attempt to get the minimum wage to $10, $30K or more should be a given.


----------



## GusPolinski

naiveonedave said:


> that is an interesting concept. How much $ should the court assume a SAH parent should make now that they are D'd. Given the attempt to get the minimum wage to $10, $30K or more should be a given.


Well, in Acoa's situation, given that a) the kids are all high school age or older and b) they'll be living w/ him for the next 3 years (i.e. until the youngest is 18), I'd say that -- in terms of spousal support -- the soon-to-be-ex Mrs. Acoa should be awarded something in the neighborhood of...

Not. A. Single. F*cking. Dime.


----------



## LongWalk

In fact refusal by her to take alimony would be a real sign of remorse. If Acoa's WW got a job and undertook to be highly independent while creditiing Acoa with being responsible for motivating her, that might make an impression.

If she paid for him to go an a vaction without any covert contract, that would be nice.

If she agreed to the terms of divorce without reading the settlement that would make an impression. She knows he is not a vengeful person; it would show real confidence in his character to just take the papers, say "I trust you, where do I sign".


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

LongWalk said:


> In fact refusal by her to take alimony would be a real sign of remorse. If Acoa's WW got a job and undertook to be highly independent while creditiing Acoa with being responsible for motivating her, that might make an impression.
> 
> If she paid for him to go an a vaction without any covert contract, that would be nice.
> 
> If she agreed to the terms of divorce without reading the settlement that would make an impression. She knows he is not a vengeful person; it would show real confidence in his character to just take the papers, say "I trust you, where do I sign".


It would be nice and make sense, but I doubt that she would be that humble. It wouldn't be dramatic enough.

She likes the over the top responses. Let's not forget that when Acoa confronted her about the cheating, she marched herself right down to the nearest psych ward and signed herself in.

Bad publicity is still publicity. "I'm ready for my closeup Mr. Demille!".

All the world's a stage.


----------



## Acoa

Yeah, she has had the parenting plan for 5 days and that's the easy one.


----------



## LongWalk

I am not predicting that she is going to change.


----------



## Acoa

Nope, she is not. 

Had an interesting conversation with D20 last night. STBX was talking to her about plans for when she moves back into the house in 3 years. How she thinks S18 will likely move out with me and then they can rearrange the bedrooms so the girls each have their own rooms.

I asked her why they though S18 would move with me, she said because of how he acts around STBX. 

Kind of disturbing that her long term plans write off repairing her relationship with our son. Yes, he was mad at her when it all came down. But he was also very involved at the theater. I think now that he is done with his involvement there he is mellowing out. But he is a typical 18 yo boy. If you want anything more than a grunt you have to make an effort.


----------



## bandit.45

She's a piece of work.


----------



## bfree

Wow, her mind is bent. Writing off a relationship with your own child is unconscionable.


----------



## Turin74

Is she already looking for alies within the family?

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Acoa

Turin74 said:


> Is she already looking for alies within the family?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_



Not so much. Just her theater friends. She is making her family take a live and let live attitude.


----------



## Acoa

bandit.45 said:


> She's a piece of work.


Getting stranger by the day. 

I drafted a joint parenting agreement with my lawyer and gave it to her a couple of weeks ago. No response, so I asked her about it yesterday. She launched into a story about how D15 is a homebody and would really prefer sleeping at home in her bed and that I should take the every other weekend out of the visitation schedule. What?!?! Really, she want's less time in the schedule? Sure, what kid when asked is going to say they prefer to spend time in Mom's dinky party pad vs their own bed. Of course she doesn't want to stay there. But, as a mother don't you think she would want to spend time with her daughter and find a way to make it appealing rather than just give up time?

Oh, and I hear she met a guy she likes. To my knowledge they are not 'dating' yet, but my guess is that's not too far away. For a minute I was hopeful that might motivate her to speed along the divorce. But then I remembered, she has no problem sleeping with other guys while married. So much for that.


----------



## Ripper

I'm sorry you are having to find out who she really is like this.


----------



## LongWalk

She has melted like ice cream in the sun.

The guy probably heard about her marital troubles and decided to offer her comfort in return for sex. Beaten down, she might take him up on it.

Acoa,

Just keep working out. Get her out of your mind with endorphins. You will find women to replace your ditzy stbx.

As to the custody arrangement. Less is more. She can always have more time if she is up to it.

Amazing journey you've been on. Do you remember posting on HardtoDetach's thread months ago? You've seen a lot of TAM.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> She has melted like ice cream in the sun.
> 
> The guy probably heard about her marital troubles and decided to offer her comfort in return for sex. Beaten down, she might take him up on it.
> 
> Acoa,
> 
> Just keep working out. Get her out of your mind with endorphins. You will find women to replace your ditzy stbx.
> 
> As to the custody arrangement. Less is more. She can always have more time if she is up to it.
> 
> Amazing journey you've been on. Do you remember posting on HardtoDetach's thread months ago? You've seen a lot of TAM.


Yep, and in a moment of weakness I checked to see if she changed her FB password. Nope.

Guess who she is planning to hook up with? Yep, Joe from post #1 in this thread. The lunch date / missed connection who triggered most of my suspicion in the first place. It wasn't as graphic as the cybersex with John, but damn. He said, "wouldn't it be funny if we wound up together?". Sounds like destiny to me. 

Now, please beat me up for looking at her FB. At this point I know I'm only doing it to reinforce to myself that D is absolutely the right thing to do. But I already know that. So, it really is time to stop.


----------



## Clay2013

I think if I was you I would start dating. You don't have to ask for anything serious and you can be upfront. Nothing better than having a woman treat you great to get over one that did not. Its a great way to make more friends and move on with your life. There are a lot of women out there I am sure that would love to just have a really great guy show them a great evening. 

Clay


----------



## Turin74

Nope. Forewarned is forearmed. Sometimes (and I'm afraid rather sooner than later) you'll find out a correlation between your defactoX's 'activities' and ups and downs in your legal process. 




Acoa said:


> Now, please beat me up for looking at her FB. At this point I know I'm only doing it to reinforce to myself that D is absolutely the right thing to do. But I already know that. So, it really is time to stop.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> Yep, and in a moment of weakness I checked to see if she changed her FB password. Nope.
> 
> Guess who she is planning to hook up with? Yep, Joe from post #1 in this thread. The lunch date / missed connection who triggered most of my suspicion in the first place. It wasn't as graphic as the cybersex with John, but damn. He said, "wouldn't it be funny if we wound up together?". Sounds like destiny to me.
> 
> Now, please beat me up for looking at her FB. At this point I know I'm only doing it to reinforce to myself that D is absolutely the right thing to do. But I already know that. So, it really is time to stop.


I'd take it a step further... Is she still using her iPhone? Do you still have the user ID / password for her iTunes account? If so...

Dr. Fone to the rescue!!!


----------



## Acoa

GusPolinski said:


> I'd take it a step further... Is she still using her iPhone? Do you still have the user ID / password for her iTunes account? If so...
> 
> Dr. Fone to the rescue!!!


No, she is using a cheap moto flip phone right now. And she changed her itunes password. We have an AT&T family map plan, so you can track the phones on the account. I've used it both to confirm she is where she says she is and to keep tabs on the location of the kids. That still works, but I don't really care where she is these days. I know it's going to be at her apartment or at the theater. 

I just sometimes wonder who she is with. I'll have to reach out to Joe's wife to confirm his marital misery. He says they plan to divorce after she completes a degree she is working on, which should be in December. I wonder if that's a line to get into my STBX bed, or if she would confirm it. Even if they are in a rough spot in there relationship, proving adultery may give her hand in expiditing her D when the time comes.


----------



## Acoa

Hmm, no spouse listed on his page, and no obvious pics are visible. May take some sluething to get his wife's info.


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> Hmm, no spouse listed on his page, and no obvious pics are visible. May take some sluething to get his wife's info.


Not sure where you're at (if you've previously mentioned it, I've already forgotten), but in some states you can find a person's address if you happen to know the name of the county in which they reside. You'd essentially go to the "Property Search" page of the county appraisal district's website, and enter the first and last name of the person for whom you're searching.

This is assuming, of course, that the person for whom you're searching is buying or owns his/her residence (condo, house, townhome, etc) and isn't renting it.


----------



## LongWalk

Your stbx is probably a bubbly people person if her theater involvement is indicative of anything. Her modus operandi is to talk to people. This also why she got into trouble. Emotional and intellectual conversations with both men and women stimulated her idea that others could fill needs that you could not. How could you? Her appetite for sensation and special purpose was individualistic. She did not bring it to you to share.

The reason you caught her is because she became contemptuous of you. She assumed that by admitting that she cheated and promising to stop, she could keep eating cake. Standing up to her was a defining moment in your lives.

Her fantasy of eventual reconciliation is still not entirely dead. Once you divorce her she will feel a new painful reality. After your divorce is final you could have sex with her and once finished tell her that it meant nothing; it was just sex. You will both being going your own way. Of course there is nothing left really for being nice to her would not work.

ChumpLady essay


----------



## Acoa

Got her name, I'll look up a number later today. 

Not sure I'd call her bubbly. I think she desires to be that person, but is held back by her own insecurity. 

Her affairs give her a thrill and make her feel desirable. But she knows it was wrong.

Contempt may be the wrong word for it. But she definitely didn't respect or honor me. When I would tell her she was beautiful, she couldn't accept it. She told me once that I'm obligated to tell her that because we are married, so it didn't count coming from me.

Hard to argue with logic like that.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Acoa said:


> Got her name, I'll look up a number later today.
> 
> Not sure I'd call her bubbly. I think she desires to be that person, but is held back by her own insecurity.
> 
> Her affairs give her a thrill and make her feel desirable. But she knows it was wrong.
> 
> Contempt may be the wrong word for it. But she definitely didn't respect or honor me. When I would tell her she was beautiful, she couldn't accept it. She told me once that I'm obligated to tell her that because we are married, so it didn't count coming from me.
> 
> Hard to argue with logic like that.


That's because there is no logic there. My wife tried that with me early on in our marriage. I told her she was right and that I'd never insult her again by telling her she was beautiful. And for a long time I didn't until one day her sister and mother were over the house, one of them said she was beautiful, and I just stood there stone silently. It was awkward. Later she came up to me and we talked. I guess I passed that fitness test.


----------



## Acoa

A little morning reading for those who are interested. This is the entire chat log between "Joe" and STBX Mrs. ACOA. Gives you the mindset into a cheater. Maybe seeing it will be of use to someone down the road. 

There is a lot going on in the conversation. On Joe's side it's interesting how quickly he switches from "Happily Married" to "Lonely and Divorcing". 

For STBX how little boundaries she has. Even the weak ones she tries to put up are freely crossed. I like the "We can't rush anything" comment. Uhm, yeah, then egg him on to chat with her at midnight and freely offering up 'kisses'. I'm sure she doesn't mean anything by it. 

Conversation started May 29, 2012 

Joe	5/29, 1:40pm	might need extension totally forgot about Thurs going to springfield means I have to be in the office the other days since short week next week?

STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:42pm	um no. Can't . ACOA saw our conversation and was upset I was setting up a lunch "date". He was wondering if you told your wife you were having lunch with me. I said I don't know.Right now. ACOA doesn't trust me so it's not a good idea.

Joe	5/29, 1:43pm	yes I did I am sorry, I thought I was going to meet you and possibly get tix to that show for my family or me and my wife

STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:44pm	getting tickets would be great.

Joe	5/29, 1:44pm	I understand and I meant nothing by it beyond lunch -- maybe I shouldn't write for a while I missed you as a friend and that's all, please apologize for me, I seem to be an idiot on here, I hate getting the wrong message across

STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:45pm	it's not your fault. There was another conversation from last year with someone else that he saw and so he doesn't trust me.

Joe	5/29, 1:45pm	all that matters is that you two are happy, we are happy, I'm sorry I won't write again for a while I feel SO horrible, you and I meant nothing by it

Joe	5/29, 1:46pm	sorry STBX

STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:46pm	It's totally on me. I know that but ACOA doesn't believe that there is nothing beyond friendship. I will probably go off fb for a while.

Joe	5/29, 1:47pm	I just don't know what to say other than i'm sorry, he's your life, we were just lunch

STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:47pm	I need to get everything in order and straightened out.

Joe	5/29, 1:47pm	understand, can delete me if you want for a while too it's okay

STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:48pm	I know that and I tried to reassure him but since I didn't tell him about lunch (I didn't think about saying anything until it was going to be set.

Joe	5/29, 1:48pm	I see others from HS just like this and I just feel bad this happened

STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:48pm	and then you cancelled so I didn't say anything because I wanted to talk to him about it… he doesn't think my flirting is appropriate even though I don't mean anything beyond it.

Joe	5/29, 1:50pm	I apologize and I'm sorry for making him feel like there was something there isn't, considering that's totally the truth
I'll go, that's best, I respect marriage and please let him know that and that I apologize and never meant more than lunch and theater talk -- if I see you over food it'll be someday at a party with spouses or maybe at a high school function
Sorry
go, ttyl

STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:52pm	thanks for understanding. Bye

Joe	5/29, 1:52pm	i respect his marriage and mine more than anything in the world ... bye



30-Sep-13	
Joe	9/30, 11:45am	longtime no talk, hope all is well, just wanted to say hi quick



9-Jun-14	
Joe	6/9, 3:25pm	You ok?

STBX Mrs. ACOA	6/9, 3:53pm	no. Separated from hubby. he asked for a divorce. My behavior has been horrible and I am severely depressed. (also part of the problem of my behavior)

Joe	6/9, 3:53pm	Sorry - wife and I hate each other here so I know the feeling -- been lonely a long time
So sorry about your marriage

STBX Mrs. ACOA	6/9, 3:54pm	I am taking time for myself now. Sorry to hear about you and your wife.

Joe	6/9, 3:54pm	It's fine - I don't hate her just I give up
Same deal - focused on kids only

27-Jun-14	

Joe	6/27, 8:46am	Hope you're okay

Joe	6/27, 1:47pm	Think we're divorcing in January or so

Joe	7/14, 2:34pm	How r u?

Joe	7/18, 1:46am	Hi

Joe	7/30, 9:47am	You ok?

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:30am	I'm okay. Moved to a new apartment and got myself a cute little puppy to take care of.

Joe	8/4, 9:31am	Good - thought you were mad at me not replying
He stayed in house with kids?

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:31am	there's no reason for me to be mad. Yes, he did to give them stability while I figure my stuff out.

Joe	8/4, 9:32am	Glad you're okay that's all I wondered

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:33am	Thanks

Joe	8/4, 9:33am	We sleep in diff bedrooms and will certainly divorce after she finishes school in Dec. there's no mutual respect
You're welcome

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:35am	so what do the boys think of that?

Joe	8/4, 9:36am	I'm on vacation with boys because we can't stand each other

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:37am	what's on the agenda for today?

Joe	8/4, 9:37am	Boys don't know - nothing would happen until Dec when she's done with classes lol

Joe	8/4, 9:38am	Maybe the beach

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:39am	still stuck close to home.
I need to get out and take the puppy for a walk.

Joe	8/4, 9:39am	You are?

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:40am	I have had diarrhea for the last few days...
not very attractive

Joe	8/4, 9:40am	I hope none of this is my fault for having shared feelings with you long ago
Nice lol

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:41am	no. Found journals that supported my feelings since 2002. I was complaining about feeling lonely and empty.

Joe	8/4, 9:41am	I'm so lonely
I dream of what a nice kiss would be -- sad

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:42am	right there with you , bud.
actually, this is the longest I've gone without sex.

Joe	8/4, 9:42am	Maybe I owe you an innocent hug then
Me too
Been forever

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:43am	it's only been 3 months but when you have been getting it regularly since 1988....

Joe	8/4, 9:43am	Haha true
Been longer since we don't like each other, feel so needy
I know I'm sad

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:44am	I have been talking to a therapist. I had a complete meltdown and told ACOA everything (over the course of a few days).

Joe	8/4, 9:45am	Good for you

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:45am	I was going to kill myself when he got really close the truth and committed myself

Joe	8/4, 9:45am	Wow

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:46am	did one week in patient, two weeks partial, two weeks intensive.

Joe	8/4, 9:46am	Don't ever hurt yourself baby

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:47am	I won't. I couldn't figure out how to do it without causing me pain or not wrecking my children and friends and grandparents.

Joe	8/4, 9:48am	Good

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:48am	too many sudden deaths all around so in the end, my caring about others (and not having the right meds to do it) stopped me.
now I can see why having a gun in the house can be dangerous. I seriously wished I had one.
since I have been committed, now I can't ever have one!

Joe	8/4, 9:50am	Mary's aren't allows to hurt themselves!
lol

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:51am	yeah. well, pulled away from God too so was feeling pretty alone.
God and I have had a lot of conversations over the last few months

Joe	8/4, 9:51am	Sorry babe - be a good girl

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:52am	so when do you get back?

Joe	8/4, 9:52am	Fri or sat
Maybe we can have java
?

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:52am	exactly what I was thinking

Joe	8/4, 9:53am	I need a hug
If ok

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:53am	it was pretty awkward last time.

Joe	8/4, 9:53am	My bad

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:53am	definitely.
yes, you can have a hug. not your fault

Joe	8/4, 9:53am	Tight hug would be awesome now

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:54am	I missed hugs when I was in the hospital. We weren't allowed to touch each other.

Joe	8/4, 9:54am	It's been forever since I've been touched

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:54am	for good reasons, I'm sure.
(touching each other)

Joe	8/4, 9:55am	I guess
I need it tho I'm human

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:55am	It's one reason I love the theatre. We are all touchy feely people

Joe	8/4, 9:55am	Haha well I'll pretend to be one then lol

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:56am	oh you can!

Joe	8/4, 9:57am	Hug is long ago, kiss was even longer ago

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:57am	we have still never kissed...

Joe	8/4, 9:57am	Hug and 1 kiss?

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:57am	at least.

Joe	8/4, 9:58am	lol
Sounds so good

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:58am	it does!

Joe	8/4, 9:58am	Passionate
Standing body to body

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:59am	sigh....
wouldn't it be odd if we ended up together?

Joe	8/4, 9:59am	Be funny

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:59am	there's been quite a few of HS people lately reuniting or getting together for the first time.

Joe	8/4, 10:00am	Either way we need a break between either way I'm sure lol
From marriage and long term life not each other
I already know you are a passionate kisser just knowing u

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:01am	yes. I need passion in my life so I have to get it out there so I can get some back

Joe	8/4, 10:03am	Yep
Hopefully we don't get kicked out of coffee shop for kiss haha

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:04am	but I can't rush into anything.

Joe	8/4, 10:04am	Me either
We are just overdue for anything lol
A million years overdue? lol

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:05am	probably.

Joe	8/4, 10:05am	Don't want anything you don't - just a hot kiss and hug
If ok

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:06am	yes.

Joe	8/4, 10:06am	Hold me against you

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:06am	hey now. no sense in getting me all hot and bothered if I can't see you for another week...

Joe	8/4, 10:07am	Haha true
I have to go anyhow and wake up my guys
I let them sleep

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:08am	I can imagine. Looks like you had a pretty busy weekend anyway

Joe	8/4, 10:08am	Just left yesterday AM
Prob headed to beach today
Ttyl?

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:09am	yes. I promise.

Joe	8/4, 10:09am	Ciao cutie

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:09am	don't get too burnt, my Joseph...

Joe	8/4, 10:09am	Haha
Ok

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:10am	xo for now
real ones later

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 1:55pm	now you have me stalking your fb page again.. 

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 3:52pm	and just waiting to hear back from you.....

Joe	8/4, 4:33pm	Haha driving

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 7:50pm	when can you chat again?

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 8:53pm	you aren't texting while driving are you?
now you are going to give me a complex!
you got some mighty good looking boys there! Looks like you guys are having fun!

Joe	8/4, 9:00pm	No but driving now

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:01pm	later? time? I really want to chat with you again today.

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:07pm	sorry. I am just excited about being able to chat with you again w/o the worry that my hubby will be upset. You also know what to say to make me feel good and wanted. Have fun with your boys and chat with me when you can. I'll keep the pc open for a while tonight. You could also call me to wake me up so we can chat quietly online...xxx-xxx-xxxx

STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 11:38pm	are you still up? I'm about to go to bed.

Joe	12:07am	Talk tomorrow I can't

STBX Mrs. ACOA	12:08am	can't talk now or can't talk tomorrow
I have my psych in the morning (leave at 8)
good night handsome...xo
I'll check online when I wake up.


----------



## loyallad

This makes me want to hunt down that POSOM "Joe" and give him a "hug" he'll never forget. What a worthless human being. And some people think EA isn't as bad as PA. To read or hear one's spouse carry on like that is sickening. My WW's OM was real big in sending her poems like he was some kind of touchy feely sort of guy. It's all crap. Just their little sneaky ways trying to get another man's wife. Why don't they put that effort into their own marriage? Just speaks to their lack of morals and their selfish ways.

Stay strong Acoa. There are better days to come.


----------



## gmsisko1

loyallad said:


> This makes me want to hunt down that POSOM "Joe" and give him a "hug" he'll never forget. What a worthless human being. And some people think EA isn't as bad as PA. To read or hear one's spouse carry on like that is sickening. My WW's OM was real big in sending her poems like he was some kind of touchy feely sort of guy. It's all crap. Just their little sneaky ways trying to get another man's wife. Why don't they put that effort into their own marriage? Just speaks to their lack of morals and their selfish ways.
> 
> Stay strong Acoa. There are better days to come.


I know just how you feel!
I went to the POSOM's apartment complex late one night and sat where I could see his door, but he couldn't see me. I watched for several minutes. (Had my gun on me too)
I even saw him come out and go to his car, then he went back into his apartment. He reminded me of a vampire that creepy sob. 
I wanted to beat his a$$. I wanted to at least knock on his door very loud late one night (and run away) just to make him piss his pants. 
Well I did nothing that could get me into trouble.


----------



## LongWalk

You couldn't validate her as bubbly, either. That was for theater crowd to do. You did validate her life by providing stability, both economic and emotional, but it was not enough. You still haven't got real apology from her. She still has not empathized.

Once the divorce goes through she may feel thing more deeply. Her inability to step up as mom is a function of her self-centric core.

I think you should tell her that the divorce is a failure that she can blame on herself or you in any proportion she sees fit. One of the purposes of divorce is that couples no longer have to discuss who was right or wrong.

But parenting doesn't end with divorce. She should write up a list of 5 things she should do to be a better parent. If she wants to share it with you for discussion, you can match her. If she wants to keep to herself fine, but she should hold herself to some standard.


----------



## Acoa

loyallad said:


> This makes me want to hunt down that POSOM "Joe" and give him a "hug" he'll never forget. What a worthless human being. And some people think EA isn't as bad as PA. To read or hear one's spouse carry on like that is sickening. My WW's OM was real big in sending her poems like he was some kind of touchy feely sort of guy. It's all crap. Just their little sneaky ways trying to get another man's wife. Why don't they put that effort into their own marriage? Just speaks to their lack of morals and their selfish ways.
> 
> Stay strong Acoa. There are better days to come.


He seems perfect for her. Willing to be molded into whatever she wants him to be. I'm sure that will change down the road if they do get together. 

We are separated, so the fact they are getting together isn't all that devastating. Yeah, it pisses me off. But I really have more concern for his wife than STBX. She deserves to be with a POS like this. Would serve her right because I'm sure that he will be stepping out on her shortly after. The question is, does his wife know about these marital problems he is professing to my STBX?

Don't have a good contact number for her yet, but I'll get one. Still debating on how long to wait and how to expose. I don't want to blow it up and tip my hand as to where I'm getting my information. So, maybe an anonymous call is best. No names, just a 'did you know' and see if she sounds surprised or not. If it seems like news then I'd reveal more. If she shrugs it off as a yeah, I know he is a man *****. Then I can just hang up and let things run their course.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Acoa said:


> Joe 12:07am Talk tomorrow I can't
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA 12:08am can't talk now or can't talk tomorrow



his Yoda speak obviously confused her


----------



## LongWalk

You posted the correspondence while I was writing. That was fascinating. The erosion of boundaries was entirely dependent on how vulnerable your STBX was. They both kept up the fiction of respect for each other's marriages until they got the straight dope.

The fact that they don't have real passion, just loneliness and regret, makes their idea of getting together hollow even to them. They know they are just the booby prize... okay consolation prize not chosen by anyone else. 

Joe is even more pathetic than your STBX because he cannot address the loathing his wife feels for him. Your STBX at least came straight out and admitted that she svcked. 

She clearly is completely afraid of p1ssing you off now. Emotionally she is conflicted. She wants to climb back on to the boat but there is no handhold. 

Whatever you do see the divorce through. Then you will see what she is made of.

Asking her to step up as parent is a means for her to earn some self respect.

Sounds like they are cyber sexing.


----------



## Dyokemm

Acoa,

I noticed your STBxWW couldn't come out and confess what it was exactly that she had done to destroy your M.

See leaves the impression that it was just more conversations you found that led to the M falling apart and her committing herself.

These two are undoubtedly playing each other...she is hiding she is a serial PA cheater and he is no doubt playing up the woe is me sexless/hateful M crap.

I like your idea of anonymously tipping off his BW so she can be aware of the pending 'fun time' between this POS and your disgusting WW, who has hardly been slowed down at all by the destruction she has just inflicted on her M and kids.


----------



## LongWalk

Definitely expose but so that it is not traceable

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



Acoa said:


> A little morning reading for those who are interested. This is the entire chat log between "Joe" and STBX Mrs. ACOA. Gives you the mindset into a cheater. Maybe seeing it will be of use to someone down the road.
> 
> There is a lot going on in the conversation. On Joe's side it's interesting how quickly he switches from "Happily Married" to "Lonely and Divorcing".
> 
> For STBX how little boundaries she has. Even the weak ones she tries to put up are freely crossed. I like the "We can't rush anything" comment. Uhm, yeah, then egg him on to chat with her at midnight and freely offering up 'kisses'. I'm sure she doesn't mean anything by it.
> 
> Conversation started May 29, 2012
> 
> Joe5/29, 1:40pmmight need extension totally forgot about Thurs going to springfield means I have to be in the office the other days since short week next week?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA5/29, 1:42pmum no. Can't . ACOA saw our conversation and was upset I was setting up a lunch "date". He was wondering if you told your wife you were having lunch with me. I said I don't know.Right now. ACOA doesn't trust me so it's not a good idea.
> 
> Joe5/29, 1:43pmyes I did I am sorry, I thought I was going to meet you and possibly get tix to that show for my family or me and my wife
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA5/29, 1:44pmgetting tickets would be great.
> 
> Joe5/29, 1:44pmI understand and I meant nothing by it beyond lunch -- maybe I shouldn't write for a while I missed you as a friend and that's all, please apologize for me, I seem to be an idiot on here, I hate getting the wrong message across
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA5/29, 1:45pmit's not your fault. There was another conversation from last year with someone else that he saw and so he doesn't trust me.
> 
> Joe5/29, 1:45pmall that matters is that you two are happy, we are happy, I'm sorry I won't write again for a while I feel SO horrible, you and I meant nothing by it
> 
> Joe5/29, 1:46pmsorry STBX
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA5/29, 1:46pmIt's totally on me. I know that but ACOA doesn't believe that there is nothing beyond friendship. I will probably go off fb for a while.
> 
> Joe5/29, 1:47pmI just don't know what to say other than i'm sorry, he's your life, we were just lunch
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA5/29, 1:47pmI need to get everything in order and straightened out.
> 
> Joe5/29, 1:47pmunderstand, can delete me if you want for a while too it's okay
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA5/29, 1:48pmI know that and I tried to reassure him but since I didn't tell him about lunch (I didn't think about saying anything until it was going to be set.
> 
> Joe5/29, 1:48pmI see others from HS just like this and I just feel bad this happened
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA5/29, 1:48pmand then you cancelled so I didn't say anything because I wanted to talk to him about it… he doesn't think my flirting is appropriate even though I don't mean anything beyond it.
> 
> Joe5/29, 1:50pmI apologize and I'm sorry for making him feel like there was something there isn't, considering that's totally the truth
> I'll go, that's best, I respect marriage and please let him know that and that I apologize and never meant more than lunch and theater talk -- if I see you over food it'll be someday at a party with spouses or maybe at a high school function
> Sorry
> go, ttyl
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA5/29, 1:52pmthanks for understanding. Bye
> 
> Joe5/29, 1:52pmi respect his marriage and mine more than anything in the world ... bye
> 
> 
> 
> 30-Sep-13
> Joe9/30, 11:45amlongtime no talk, hope all is well, just wanted to say hi quick
> 
> 
> 
> 9-Jun-14
> Joe6/9, 3:25pmYou ok?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA6/9, 3:53pmno. Separated from hubby. he asked for a divorce. My behavior has been horrible and I am severely depressed. (also part of the problem of my behavior)
> 
> Joe6/9, 3:53pmSorry - wife and I hate each other here so I know the feeling -- been lonely a long time
> So sorry about your marriage
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA6/9, 3:54pmI am taking time for myself now. Sorry to hear about you and your wife.
> 
> Joe6/9, 3:54pmIt's fine - I don't hate her just I give up
> Same deal - focused on kids only
> 
> 27-Jun-14
> 
> Joe6/27, 8:46amHope you're okay
> 
> Joe6/27, 1:47pmThink we're divorcing in January or so
> 
> Joe7/14, 2:34pmHow r u?
> 
> Joe7/18, 1:46amHi
> 
> Joe7/30, 9:47amYou ok?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:30amI'm okay. Moved to a new apartment and got myself a cute little puppy to take care of.
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:31amGood - thought you were mad at me not replying
> He stayed in house with kids?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:31amthere's no reason for me to be mad. Yes, he did to give them stability while I figure my stuff out.
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:32amGlad you're okay that's all I wondered
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:33amThanks
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:33amWe sleep in diff bedrooms and will certainly divorce after she finishes school in Dec. there's no mutual respect
> You're welcome
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:35amso what do the boys think of that?
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:36amI'm on vacation with boys because we can't stand each other
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:37amwhat's on the agenda for today?
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:37amBoys don't know - nothing would happen until Dec when she's done with classes lol
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:38amMaybe the beach
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:39amstill stuck close to home.
> I need to get out and take the puppy for a walk.
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:39amYou are?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:40amI have had diarrhea for the last few days...
> not very attractive
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:40amI hope none of this is my fault for having shared feelings with you long ago
> Nice lol
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:41amno. Found journals that supported my feelings since 2002. I was complaining about feeling lonely and empty.
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:41amI'm so lonely
> I dream of what a nice kiss would be -- sad
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:42amright there with you , bud.
> actually, this is the longest I've gone without sex.
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:42amMaybe I owe you an innocent hug then
> Me too
> Been forever
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:43amit's only been 3 months but when you have been getting it regularly since 1988....
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:43amHaha true
> Been longer since we don't like each other, feel so needy
> I know I'm sad
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:44amI have been talking to a therapist. I had a complete meltdown and told ACOA everything (over the course of a few days).
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:45amGood for you
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:45amI was going to kill myself when he got really close the truth and committed myself
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:45amWow
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:46amdid one week in patient, two weeks partial, two weeks intensive.
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:46amDon't ever hurt yourself baby
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:47amI won't. I couldn't figure out how to do it without causing me pain or not wrecking my children and friends and grandparents.
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:48amGood
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:48amtoo many sudden deaths all around so in the end, my caring about others (and not having the right meds to do it) stopped me.
> now I can see why having a gun in the house can be dangerous. I seriously wished I had one.
> since I have been committed, now I can't ever have one!
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:50amMary's aren't allows to hurt themselves!
> lol
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:51amyeah. well, pulled away from God too so was feeling pretty alone.
> God and I have had a lot of conversations over the last few months
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:51amSorry babe - be a good girl
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:52amso when do you get back?
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:52amFri or sat
> Maybe we can have java
> ?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:52amexactly what I was thinking
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:53amI need a hug
> If ok
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:53amit was pretty awkward last time.
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:53amMy bad
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:53amdefinitely.
> yes, you can have a hug. not your fault
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:53amTight hug would be awesome now
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:54amI missed hugs when I was in the hospital. We weren't allowed to touch each other.
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:54amIt's been forever since I've been touched
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:54amfor good reasons, I'm sure.
> (touching each other)
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:55amI guess
> I need it tho I'm human
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:55amIt's one reason I love the theatre. We are all touchy feely people
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:55amHaha well I'll pretend to be one then lol
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:56amoh you can!
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:57amHug is long ago, kiss was even longer ago
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:57amwe have still never kissed...
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:57amHug and 1 kiss?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:57amat least.
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:58amlol
> Sounds so good
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:58amit does!
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:58amPassionate
> Standing body to body
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:59amsigh....
> wouldn't it be odd if we ended up together?
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:59amBe funny
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:59amthere's been quite a few of HS people lately reuniting or getting together for the first time.
> 
> Joe8/4, 10:00amEither way we need a break between either way I'm sure lol
> From marriage and long term life not each other
> I already know you are a passionate kisser just knowing u
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 10:01amyes. I need passion in my life so I have to get it out there so I can get some back
> 
> Joe8/4, 10:03amYep
> Hopefully we don't get kicked out of coffee shop for kiss haha
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 10:04ambut I can't rush into anything.
> 
> Joe8/4, 10:04amMe either
> We are just overdue for anything lol
> A million years overdue? lol
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 10:05amprobably.
> 
> Joe8/4, 10:05amDon't want anything you don't - just a hot kiss and hug
> If ok
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 10:06amyes.
> 
> Joe8/4, 10:06amHold me against you
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 10:06amhey now. no sense in getting me all hot and bothered if I can't see you for another week...
> 
> Joe8/4, 10:07amHaha true
> I have to go anyhow and wake up my guys
> I let them sleep
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 10:08amI can imagine. Looks like you had a pretty busy weekend anyway
> 
> Joe8/4, 10:08amJust left yesterday AM
> Prob headed to beach today
> Ttyl?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 10:09amyes. I promise.
> 
> Joe8/4, 10:09amCiao cutie
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 10:09amdon't get too burnt, my Joseph...
> 
> Joe8/4, 10:09amHaha
> Ok
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 10:10amxo for now
> real ones later
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 1:55pmnow you have me stalking your fb page again..
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 3:52pmand just waiting to hear back from you.....
> 
> Joe8/4, 4:33pmHaha driving
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 7:50pmwhen can you chat again?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 8:53pmyou aren't texting while driving are you?
> now you are going to give me a complex!
> you got some mighty good looking boys there! Looks like you guys are having fun!
> 
> Joe8/4, 9:00pmNo but driving now
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:01pmlater? time? I really want to chat with you again today.
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 9:07pmsorry. I am just excited about being able to chat with you again w/o the worry that my hubby will be upset. You also know what to say to make me feel good and wanted. Have fun with your boys and chat with me when you can. I'll keep the pc open for a while tonight. You could also call me to wake me up so we can chat quietly online...xxx-xxx-xxxx
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA8/4, 11:38pmare you still up? I'm about to go to bed.
> 
> Joe12:07amTalk tomorrow I can't
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA12:08amcan't talk now or can't talk tomorrow
> I have my psych in the morning (leave at 8)
> good night handsome...xo
> I'll check online when I wake up.


All I can think of is that Schmoopies cartoon. I wonder how surprised his wife would be to read that exchange.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Acoa said:


> A little morning reading for those who are interested. This is the entire chat log between "Joe" and STBX Mrs. ACOA. Gives you the mindset into a cheater. Maybe seeing it will be of use to someone down the road.
> 
> There is a lot going on in the conversation. On Joe's side it's interesting how quickly he switches from "Happily Married" to "Lonely and Divorcing".
> 
> For STBX how little boundaries she has. Even the weak ones she tries to put up are freely crossed. I like the "We can't rush anything" comment. Uhm, yeah, then egg him on to chat with her at midnight and freely offering up 'kisses'. I'm sure she doesn't mean anything by it.
> 
> Conversation started May 29, 2012
> 
> Joe	5/29, 1:40pm	might need extension totally forgot about Thurs going to springfield means I have to be in the office the other days since short week next week?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:42pm	um no. Can't . ACOA saw our conversation and was upset I was setting up a lunch "date". He was wondering if you told your wife you were having lunch with me. I said I don't know.Right now. ACOA doesn't trust me so it's not a good idea.
> 
> Joe	5/29, 1:43pm	yes I did I am sorry, I thought I was going to meet you and possibly get tix to that show for my family or me and my wife
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:44pm	getting tickets would be great.
> 
> Joe	5/29, 1:44pm	I understand and I meant nothing by it beyond lunch -- maybe I shouldn't write for a while I missed you as a friend and that's all, please apologize for me, I seem to be an idiot on here, I hate getting the wrong message across
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:45pm	it's not your fault. There was another conversation from last year with someone else that he saw and so he doesn't trust me.
> 
> Joe	5/29, 1:45pm	all that matters is that you two are happy, we are happy, I'm sorry I won't write again for a while I feel SO horrible, you and I meant nothing by it
> 
> Joe	5/29, 1:46pm	sorry STBX
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:46pm	It's totally on me. I know that but ACOA doesn't believe that there is nothing beyond friendship. I will probably go off fb for a while.
> 
> Joe	5/29, 1:47pm	I just don't know what to say other than i'm sorry, he's your life, we were just lunch
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:47pm	I need to get everything in order and straightened out.
> 
> Joe	5/29, 1:47pm	understand, can delete me if you want for a while too it's okay
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:48pm	I know that and I tried to reassure him but since I didn't tell him about lunch (I didn't think about saying anything until it was going to be set.
> 
> Joe	5/29, 1:48pm	I see others from HS just like this and I just feel bad this happened
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:48pm	and then you cancelled so I didn't say anything because I wanted to talk to him about it… he doesn't think my flirting is appropriate even though I don't mean anything beyond it.
> 
> Joe	5/29, 1:50pm	I apologize and I'm sorry for making him feel like there was something there isn't, considering that's totally the truth
> I'll go, that's best, I respect marriage and please let him know that and that I apologize and never meant more than lunch and theater talk -- if I see you over food it'll be someday at a party with spouses or maybe at a high school function
> Sorry
> go, ttyl
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	5/29, 1:52pm	thanks for understanding. Bye
> 
> Joe	5/29, 1:52pm	i respect his marriage and mine more than anything in the world ... bye
> 
> 
> 
> 30-Sep-13
> Joe	9/30, 11:45am	longtime no talk, hope all is well, just wanted to say hi quick
> 
> 
> 
> 9-Jun-14
> Joe	6/9, 3:25pm	You ok?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	6/9, 3:53pm	no. Separated from hubby. he asked for a divorce. My behavior has been horrible and I am severely depressed. (also part of the problem of my behavior)
> 
> Joe	6/9, 3:53pm	Sorry - wife and I hate each other here so I know the feeling -- been lonely a long time
> So sorry about your marriage
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	6/9, 3:54pm	I am taking time for myself now. Sorry to hear about you and your wife.
> 
> Joe	6/9, 3:54pm	It's fine - I don't hate her just I give up
> Same deal - focused on kids only
> 
> 27-Jun-14
> 
> Joe	6/27, 8:46am	Hope you're okay
> 
> Joe	6/27, 1:47pm	Think we're divorcing in January or so
> 
> Joe	7/14, 2:34pm	How r u?
> 
> Joe	7/18, 1:46am	Hi
> 
> Joe	7/30, 9:47am	You ok?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:30am	I'm okay. Moved to a new apartment and got myself a cute little puppy to take care of.
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:31am	Good - thought you were mad at me not replying
> He stayed in house with kids?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:31am	there's no reason for me to be mad. Yes, he did to give them stability while I figure my stuff out.
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:32am	Glad you're okay that's all I wondered
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:33am	Thanks
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:33am	We sleep in diff bedrooms and will certainly divorce after she finishes school in Dec. there's no mutual respect
> You're welcome
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:35am	so what do the boys think of that?
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:36am	I'm on vacation with boys because we can't stand each other
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:37am	what's on the agenda for today?
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:37am	Boys don't know - nothing would happen until Dec when she's done with classes lol
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:38am	Maybe the beach
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:39am	still stuck close to home.
> I need to get out and take the puppy for a walk.
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:39am	You are?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:40am	I have had diarrhea for the last few days...
> not very attractive
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:40am	I hope none of this is my fault for having shared feelings with you long ago
> Nice lol
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:41am	no. Found journals that supported my feelings since 2002. I was complaining about feeling lonely and empty.
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:41am	I'm so lonely
> I dream of what a nice kiss would be -- sad
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:42am	right there with you , bud.
> actually, this is the longest I've gone without sex.
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:42am	Maybe I owe you an innocent hug then
> Me too
> Been forever
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:43am	it's only been 3 months but when you have been getting it regularly since 1988....
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:43am	Haha true
> Been longer since we don't like each other, feel so needy
> I know I'm sad
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:44am	I have been talking to a therapist. I had a complete meltdown and told ACOA everything (over the course of a few days).
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:45am	Good for you
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:45am	I was going to kill myself when he got really close the truth and committed myself
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:45am	Wow
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:46am	did one week in patient, two weeks partial, two weeks intensive.
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:46am	Don't ever hurt yourself baby
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:47am	I won't. I couldn't figure out how to do it without causing me pain or not wrecking my children and friends and grandparents.
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:48am	Good
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:48am	too many sudden deaths all around so in the end, my caring about others (and not having the right meds to do it) stopped me.
> now I can see why having a gun in the house can be dangerous. I seriously wished I had one.
> since I have been committed, now I can't ever have one!
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:50am	Mary's aren't allows to hurt themselves!
> lol
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:51am	yeah. well, pulled away from God too so was feeling pretty alone.
> God and I have had a lot of conversations over the last few months
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:51am	Sorry babe - be a good girl
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:52am	so when do you get back?
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:52am	Fri or sat
> Maybe we can have java
> ?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:52am	exactly what I was thinking
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:53am	I need a hug
> If ok
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:53am	it was pretty awkward last time.
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:53am	My bad
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:53am	definitely.
> yes, you can have a hug. not your fault
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:53am	Tight hug would be awesome now
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:54am	I missed hugs when I was in the hospital. We weren't allowed to touch each other.
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:54am	It's been forever since I've been touched
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:54am	for good reasons, I'm sure.
> (touching each other)
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:55am	I guess
> I need it tho I'm human
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:55am	It's one reason I love the theatre. We are all touchy feely people
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:55am	Haha well I'll pretend to be one then lol
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:56am	oh you can!
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:57am	Hug is long ago, kiss was even longer ago
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:57am	we have still never kissed...
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:57am	Hug and 1 kiss?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:57am	at least.
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:58am	lol
> Sounds so good
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:58am	it does!
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:58am	Passionate
> Standing body to body
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:59am	sigh....
> wouldn't it be odd if we ended up together?
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:59am	Be funny
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:59am	there's been quite a few of HS people lately reuniting or getting together for the first time.
> 
> Joe	8/4, 10:00am	Either way we need a break between either way I'm sure lol
> From marriage and long term life not each other
> I already know you are a passionate kisser just knowing u
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:01am	yes. I need passion in my life so I have to get it out there so I can get some back
> 
> Joe	8/4, 10:03am	Yep
> Hopefully we don't get kicked out of coffee shop for kiss haha
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:04am	but I can't rush into anything.
> 
> Joe	8/4, 10:04am	Me either
> We are just overdue for anything lol
> A million years overdue? lol
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:05am	probably.
> 
> Joe	8/4, 10:05am	Don't want anything you don't - just a hot kiss and hug
> If ok
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:06am	yes.
> 
> Joe	8/4, 10:06am	Hold me against you
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:06am	hey now. no sense in getting me all hot and bothered if I can't see you for another week...
> 
> Joe	8/4, 10:07am	Haha true
> I have to go anyhow and wake up my guys
> I let them sleep
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:08am	I can imagine. Looks like you had a pretty busy weekend anyway
> 
> Joe	8/4, 10:08am	Just left yesterday AM
> Prob headed to beach today
> Ttyl?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:09am	yes. I promise.
> 
> Joe	8/4, 10:09am	Ciao cutie
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:09am	don't get too burnt, my Joseph...
> 
> Joe	8/4, 10:09am	Haha
> Ok
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 10:10am	xo for now
> real ones later
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 1:55pm	now you have me stalking your fb page again..
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 3:52pm	and just waiting to hear back from you.....
> 
> Joe	8/4, 4:33pm	Haha driving
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 7:50pm	when can you chat again?
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 8:53pm	you aren't texting while driving are you?
> now you are going to give me a complex!
> you got some mighty good looking boys there! Looks like you guys are having fun!
> 
> Joe	8/4, 9:00pm	No but driving now
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:01pm	later? time? I really want to chat with you again today.
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 9:07pm	sorry. I am just excited about being able to chat with you again w/o the worry that my hubby will be upset. You also know what to say to make me feel good and wanted. Have fun with your boys and chat with me when you can. I'll keep the pc open for a while tonight. You could also call me to wake me up so we can chat quietly online...xxx-xxx-xxxx
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	8/4, 11:38pm	are you still up? I'm about to go to bed.
> 
> Joe	12:07am	Talk tomorrow I can't
> 
> STBX Mrs. ACOA	12:08am	can't talk now or can't talk tomorrow
> I have my psych in the morning (leave at 8)
> good night handsome...xo
> I'll check online when I wake up.


I just can believe that someone able to hide 2 affairs by using code texting is going to let her FB open. She is trying to mess with your mind.
File everything and keep your eyes open.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acoa

Suspecting2014 said:


> I just can believe that someone able to hide 2 affairs by using code texting is going to let her FB open. She is trying to mess with your mind.
> 
> File everything and keep your eyes open.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



That thought has crossed my mind. But I'm not sure what her end game would be if true.


----------



## alte Dame

I'm ashamed to say that I found reading that transcript fascinating, much the way a slow-moving train wreck captures the attention.

The POS Joe leads your WW just where she wants to go. He's not particularly suave or subtle about the way he's verbally dancing her into his dark little corner. It all sounds mundane, but the ramifications are big. I've started to think of this phenomenon as the banality of infidelity.

What always strikes me as well are the wishful, clueless comments about the children, as if the children are just happy little campers whose cheating parents just love them to death and who will be 'just fine' because, as we all know 'kids are resilient.'

And that bit about what she did when you 'got closer to the truth.' Serial cheaters say that they hate losing control and paying consequences. Look what she did when she lost control of the situation.

I am so glad you found out the truth. Your life will be so much better.

Thanks for posting that. It is very telling.


----------



## Turin74

Wow these 2 deserve each other. Not a lot of being sorry (even post factum) on either side. In my experience people with no capability to find wrongs in their own actions - "it's always somebody else fault" people - are hopeless to deal with. So clearly you were fighting a battle you couldn't win, not that you shouldn't be respected for fighting.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa, don't do anything to tip off your STBXW that you're still able to access her FB. Log in regularly and take backups of all of her conversations. Once you're able to clearly see that a relationship has taken hold between your STBXW and this POS "Joe", find a way to discretely get the chat logs to his wife.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Need help coping*



alte Dame said:


> I'm ashamed to say that I found reading that transcript fascinating, much the way a slow-moving train wreck captures the attention.
> 
> The POS Joe leads your WW just where she wants to go. He's not particularly suave or subtle about the way he's verbally dancing her into his dark little corner. It all sounds mundane, but the ramifications are big. I've started to think of this phenomenon as the banality of infidelity.
> 
> What always strikes me as well are the wishful, clueless comments about the children, as if the children are just happy little campers whose cheating parents just love them to death and who will be 'just fine' because, as we all know 'kids are resilient.'
> 
> And that bit about what she did when you 'got closer to the truth.' Serial cheaters say that they hate losing control and paying consequences. Look what she did when she lost control of the situation.
> 
> I am so glad you found out the truth. Your life will be so much better.
> 
> Thanks for posting that. It is very telling.


AD, isn't it a chilling read? It's almost like every cheater is possessed by the spirit of the original cheater. It's like they are all mind-connected. Fascinating...maybe. Erie...probably. Scary...definitely.


----------



## alte Dame

bfree said:


> AD, isn't it a chilling read? It's almost like every cheater is possessed by the spirit of the original cheater. It's like they are all mind-connected. Fascinating...maybe. Erie...probably. Scary...definitely.


Yes, chilling is a good word for it. I agree. I don't know of other human behaviors that seem to be so creepily scripted. Betrayed spouses often describe their cheating spouses as people who have become completely different, almost like they've been possessed. Their personalities just switch. And serial cheaters appear to live naturally with the switching - double lives lived as a way of life.


----------



## LongWalk

Acoa's problem is that he is loyal and still attached to his STBX at some level, otherwise he would not be further interested in her life as a single woman.

He is horrified to see Joe slowly sucking her in. The POS is artless, as another noted. There is nothing remotely attractive about his flirting. All he offers is shared misery. 

Acoa's wife is giving up on herself. It pains him to see this. She is capable of fighting harder, but lacks the spark. If she were a truly rotten person, he could just wipe his hands and walk away.

This is Why I suggest that you tell her to examine herself as a parent. By concentrating on her children she may still find herself.

Acoa is it fair to say that every time you have contact she searches for some sign of hope? She knows you are no doormat. She rightly feels she is not your match in character.

Has she apologized to your children for blowing their family life out of the water?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Has she apologized to your children for blowing their family life out of the water?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Yes, she has been apologetic with the kids. She definetly knows what she did was wrong. She is a better mother than a wife for sure. Hopefully her upcoming romantic entanglements don't ruin that. My kids are old enough to realize her choices are poor ones. I don't need to protect them from witnessing it.

You are right in that she lacks the strength to learn from her mistakes and make the difficult changes it would take to be the person she could be. I think she likes the concept of a carefree lifestyle where she can have multiple men orbiting her. I doubt she will find it very satisfying, or very care free. But, time for me to let go. 

Peeking under the hood has been good for soothing my shame and guilt over the failure of my marriage. By witnessing her bad choices, it reaffirms to me that my choice to D is the best choice. But it's not a healthy place to get stuck. 

I


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Wow. Wow. That's awful. I know I said earlier to let the surveillance go. I'm glad you didn't listen because this shows you she doesn't want R at all.

I understand the argument, "but her needs are not being met." Sorry, people stay loyal in sexless marriages, so she can go more than "3 months" trying to win him back. Just proves she likes the chase not the loyalty.


----------



## Acoa

The Prequel Thread:

Had some interesting revelations this week. Trying to complete my post mortum of the relationship. 

She started to feel "lonely" back in 2002. That was when we moved closer to our hometown. It was also when the youngest started to go to school. So, SAHM transitioned into having her days free. I had also gotten a nice promotion that year, so money was pretty comfortable. But I was working a lot of hours. 

She was big on the computer back then. Chat rooms and what not. My guess is she started cyber flirting somewhere in the 2003 to 2007 time frame. 

She started school to finish her master's in 2007. By that point something was "off" in our relationship. I was home more, but we didn't do much. Kids activities and sitting around watching TV. That was boring to me, so that's when I started to go overboard on the video gaming. I speculate she probably flirted with classmates in her cohort program (possibly had her first PA). 

At this point, I was clueless. Wasn't looking, was either working, helping the kids or gaming. The fact I didn't notice probably emboldened her. 

In 2009 she graduated from her cohort and we moved back to our hometown. We had a long discussion about my gaming and agreed it had become a problem so I stopped. 

Things seemed to get better for a year, but then she found a bunch of old HS friends through FB who still lived in the area. We went to the same HS, so I knew most of them too. I went out a couple of times with her, but I didn't like these folks in HS and I didn't like them now. 

I stopped going and told her she should too. She said she enjoyed the nostalgia and wanted to keep going . That she would only hang out with her girlfriends and she was strong and would be careful to not put herself in a situation to risk our marriage. 

Of course that was bull. I kind of sensed it at this point, but rather than face it , I just buried my nose into video games again. 

We started fighting, and ignoring each other more and more from 2009 to 2011. 2011 was when my gut was screaming at me so loud I could no longer ignore it. 

I found little circumstantial things and had several ill timed and ineffective soft confronts. In May 2012 I found hard evidence of cybersex . Memorial Day of 2012 was Dday 1. 

My confront was weak and pathetic. But she knew she was busted for the cyber . I felt there was a lot more, but she was a convincing liar. We decided to R. 

It was shortly after that I found TAM and started this thread. The rest of the story is pretty well documented if you start at post 1.


----------



## LongWalk

Your story is very instructive. Whatever your shortcomings:

1) She should have been more forthright after Dday1. The rug sweeping allowed her to continue cheating.

2) After Dday1 she chose not to work on your marriage. That was not a mistake. It was a wilful violation of your future together.


----------



## Marduk

My read is that she's using the other dude as an emotional wet blanket to make her feel better.

Nothing makes a person feel better quite as much as having someone else to run to that will validate you and assure you that you are attractive and valuable.

Sex will be part of that equation eventually of course.


----------



## Acoa

marduk said:


> My read is that she's using the other dude as an emotional wet blanket to make her feel better.
> 
> Nothing makes a person feel better quite as much as having someone else to run to that will validate you and assure you that you are attractive and valuable.
> 
> Sex will be part of that equation eventually of course.


Correct. She starts to feel disconnected, or lonely or ugly or whatever insecurity is making her feel down. She starts sending out 'hi there' messages to folks. Just to touch base. Or a vaugebook post on FB about how something is bothering her (usually some Meme she finds on another site) with no real info.

Once she gets a guy's attention, she tells her victim's tale. The guy comforts her and tells her she deserves better than (whatever it is that is bothering her). The conversation escalates from there. And yes, in many cases all the way to sex.

From talking with her, and reading some old journals. I think she thought the inital cry for attention was not wrong (I think it is, but that's a seperate argument). But she thought she could stop the escalation. Goes back to her watching a match burn down to your fingertips comment. She liked the excitement of it getting close to the point of burning. But she didn't want to experience the pain of getting burned.

B1tch is crispy toast now.


----------



## Dyokemm

Did I read your recap right, Acoa?

You now think there was a THIRD PA way back before she finished school and you moved back to your hometown?

Wow....what a deceptive bit of cake-eating for YEARS longer than you at first suspected.


----------



## Acoa

Dyokemm said:


> Did I read your recap right, Acoa?



You read it right. Mind you that is speculation on my part. But there are some things in her journals that make me think so. 

She writes in 2009 about the match burning and would she be able to stop before getting burned. 

Then in 2010 she wrote about it being hard to journal because things she said might be misinterpreted if someone was to read her journals. Then she almost completely stopped journaling.


----------



## Dyokemm

She is truly a piece of work.

I would speak to her as little as possible for the rest of my life.

The way she has used and treated you is really despicable.


----------



## hopefulgirl

alte Dame said:


> I'm ashamed to say that I found reading that transcript fascinating, much the way a slow-moving train wreck captures the attention.
> 
> The POS Joe leads your WW just where she wants to go.


So right on. Had to read to the end. 

And Joe - he IS a pig. She's awful, but he's right up there with her - they're both just gross.

This is one reason I did not want to read my husband's text messages with the OW (he had erased them, and I didn't want to try to retrieve them). Since we're in R, I thought it would just make things worse between us - the words would be burned into my brain.

But as you are in the process of breaking free, this crap should really help you!

Barf.


----------



## LongWalk

Dyokemm said:


> She is truly a piece of work.
> 
> I would speak to her as little as possible for the rest of my life.
> 
> The way she has used and treated you is really despicable.


This bears consideration.

However, she should work instead farting around the theater.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> However, she should work instead farting around the theater.


There is a big long list of shoulds. She is shoulding all over herself. :rofl:

She portrays to the world that she is going to push through her trials and tribulations and come out a better person. I wonder if that feels as hollow to her as it sounds to the rest of us?

On the bright side. Kids are registered for school and tuition is taken care of now for the older two who are in college. D20 got her full scholarship back, so I don't have to find more magical money this year. /whew

Have a beer tasting Saturday with some buddies, and then going to the Ren Faire with D15, my god daughter and brother on Sunday. Weather is going to be perfect for being outdoors. Should be a good weekend.


----------



## farsidejunky

Have fun, brother. Find yourself a good bar wench or maiden to cozy up to...


----------



## Acoa

farsidejunky said:


> Have fun, brother. Find yourself a good bar wench or maiden to cozy up to...


Lol, no bar wench or maiden's for me over the weekend. There was a girl who wanted me to drunk text her Saturday Night. But I went a little too far with the beer consumption. I was lucky to make it home an into bed before I passed out. 10 different beers over the course of the evening. Including a few rare brews like Revolution's 4th year anniversary brew (brewed in limited quantities with one release). 

The faire was fun, had great weather for spending the day outdoors. I was nursing one hell of a hangover, lol. 2 days later and I still feel a bit tinged. Could use another 12 hours of sleep I think. Downside of getting older, recovery times go up and up.


----------



## LongWalk

The liver speaks the truth


----------



## Almostrecovered

LongWalk said:


> The liver speaks the truth


I always thought the liver was full of bile


----------



## Dyokemm

"I always thought the liver was full of bile"

Yes it is....it is the body organ that most resembles the WS


----------



## Acoa

She signed the reviesed custody judgment right away and returned it. She hadn't taken the court mandated parenting class yet, so I reminded her to take that before next week when the judgment will be entered with the court and thanked her for being cooperative.

She said okay and said I was an excellent father and thanked me for being there for them while she can't be. Why do I get the feeling she is going to go do something stupid?


----------



## Turin74

WAS a good father? Did she mean "you ARE a good father"? 

Stupid like what? You mean "stupid as usual" (apologies but I can't provide any other description for what she's been doing) or unusually? 




Acoa said:


> She signed the reviesed custody judgment right away and returned it. She hadn't taken the court mandated parenting class yet, so I reminded her to take that before next week when the judgment will be entered with the court and thanked her for being cooperative.
> 
> She said okay and said I was an excellent father and thanked me for being there for them while she can't be. Why do I get the feeling she is going to go do something stupid?


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Acoa said:


> She signed the reviesed custody judgment right away and returned it. She hadn't taken the court mandated parenting class yet, so I reminded her to take that before next week when the judgment will be entered with the court and thanked her for being cooperative.
> 
> She said okay and said I was an excellent father and thanked me for being there for them while she can't be. *Why do I get the feeling she is going to go do something stupid?*


Probably because she's been doing "something stupid" for years now.

I do get the feeling that she has been, is now and will be delusional.

She's been living dual lives for the last, what, 4 to 8 years, right?/.

Now one of those lives is coming to an end. She's probably just now really starting to understand what she's lost.

If she talks, or calls you, record it. If she mentions something about suicide, even if it's in a joking manner, make the call.

It could just be more dramatics, but don't take the chance, call.


----------



## Acoa

Turin74 said:


> Stupid like what? You mean "stupid as usual" (apologies but I can't provide any other description for what she's been doing) or unusually?


No need to apologize, her IQ has been dropping the more classes she took. But I did mean unusually stupid. She has been posting to FB about Robin Williams. She is watching some of his movies today and the day is "sponsored" by Zoloft and chocolate.

The way she is rolling over smacks of putting her house in order. I've seen people do this leading up to suicide. I hope she doesn't do that to our kids.


_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Turin74

While this obviously a matter of highest sensitivity, I'd suggest you to consider using this "father" topic as a segway to remind your STBX that your kids (even or especially being teenagers /young adults) still need mother? Hope it doesn't break your detachment process. Eg I'd watch her within the above boundaries : it's likely to be another drama, but sometimes people take their own drama too far. 





Acoa said:


> Turin74 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stupid like what? You mean "stupid as usual" (apologies but I can't provide any other description for what she's been doing) or unusually?
> 
> 
> 
> No need to apologize, her IQ has been dropping the more classes she took. But I did mean unusually stupid. She has been posting to FB about Robin Williams. She is watching some of his movies today and the day is "sponsored" by Zoloft and chocolate.
> 
> The way she is rolling over smacks of putting her house in order. I've seen people do this leading up to suicide. I hope she doesn't do that to our kids.
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
Click to expand...

 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acoa

Turin74 said:


> While this obviously a matter of highest sensitivity, I'd suggest you to consider using this "father" topic as a segway to remind your STBX that your kids (even or especially being teenagers /young adults) still need mother? Hope it doesn't break your detachment process. Eg I'd watch her within the above boundaries : it's likely to be another drama, but sometimes people take their own drama too far.


That's a good idea, I can reinforce the fact the kids enjoy thier time with her and find some opportunities to point out where they miss her. I think I can handle that much and still detach from her drama. But I don't think I can handle coming at her with my suicide concerns in a direct manner. I do care about her, and I could get sucked in. 

I may spend some time with her father, and share my concerns with him. She isn't speaking to him anymore, partially because he isn't taking her drama seriously. He told her that it's all an act to garner sympathy and she needs to grouw up. While I agree with him, that tact isn't going to work with her. I think he is still hoping that she snaps out of it and we get back together. I think it may be helpful to let him see we are past that point, and he will need to accpet her for where she is, even if he doesn't agree with her choices.


----------



## LongWalk

As you move on and no longer feel romantically connected, you can transition to being a co-parent and friend. This is possible when there is not on-going conflict. So far you have the divorce to conclude, which makes it premature to speak of a conflict free situation.

Clearly emotions are like capital or some other consumable unit in the process of divorce. You mention her acquiescence and passivity as something that could be disturbing, for if there is a covert contract, i.e, she lets you dictate the terms of divorce, she may be hoping for a third chance in your marriage.

Obviously as far some family members are concerned your identity as a couple is hard to end. The root of this is not just your children, but the strength of your family identity. Your WW was only looking for attention; she had not planned to leave you. 

Wilful blindness, is that some dysfunctional learned behavior or mere stupidity?


----------



## slimstickums

Yikes, I see all kinds of issues that need to be dealt with. You have to start with your own issues (trust, control) first, and then the marriage. It is very hard to rebuild Trust after it has been broken, and with your admitted control issue it will surely be a struggle.


----------



## GusPolinski

slimstickums said:


> Yikes, I see all kinds of issues that need to be dealt with. You have to start with your own issues (trust, control) first, and then the marriage. It is very hard to rebuild Trust after it has been broken, and with your admitted control issue it will surely be a struggle.


:scratchhead:


----------



## manticore

slimstickums said:


> Yikes, I see all kinds of issues that need to be dealt with. You have to start with your own issues (trust, control) first, and then the marriage. It is very hard to rebuild Trust after it has been broken, and with your admitted control issue it will surely be a struggle.


I am wondering if you posted in the wrong thread.

His issues of trust and control came after he found his STBXW sexting the first time, an if you have no control isuues after that, then you just don't care about your spouse.

Besides obviously his control and trust issues were right on the spot as he later found that she never stopped cheating and was a physical affair at least with 2 guys, and finally he does not want to rebuild anything he wants her out of his life other than things related to their kids.

If anything he was overtrusting when he allowed her to continue her activities on the theater where she continued her affair another 2 years.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Wilful blindness, is that some dysfunctional learned behavior or mere stupidity?



She is smart enough, it's definitely dysfunctional. Learned? Yes, I suppose it is a learned behavior. As she pushed boundaries, she learned there was no consequence. When she took it too far she learned she could lie. As long as there was no evidence she was smart enough to stick to the lie. When there was something circumstantial, she would adapt the story and learned I would accept it.


----------



## Acoa

I gave her the draft of the financial separation agreement. She said she needed more time on that. I asked how long and she said until October. Because she doesn't have the money to get a lawyer. I very calmly reminded her that I gave her money for that. Her response? "Well, I have to live" 

I'm seriously considering cutting her off completely and letting her fight me for every penny. FFS, she cares more about money than her kids.


----------



## Turin74

Fits perfectly the drama scenario. "poor artistic sensual women who just made a mistake (though I'm sure she wouldn't be using the M word on front of you if she has any sense left) lives in misery and self pity while Dr. Evil Acoa cuts her life supplies". Act 3. 

BTW, if I'm not mistaken, faster she gets though agreement faster she gets $$$ from you? 

P. S. Still talk to her family as per above. Just to cover all aspects. 




Acoa said:


> I gave her the draft of the financial separation agreement. She said she needed more time on that. I asked how long and she said until October. Because she doesn't have the money to get a lawyer. I very calmly reminded her that I gave her money for that. Her response? "Well, I have to live"
> 
> I'm seriously considering cutting her off completely and letting her fight me for every penny. FFS, she cares more about money than her kids.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Acoa said:


> I gave her the draft of the financial separation agreement. She said she needed more time on that.


Yep, someone wants more of a chance to reconnect. Divorce goes through, all you talk about is the kids. If she drains your finances, she thinks you'll capitulate and try reconciliation again.


----------



## Acoa

Turin74 said:


> BTW, if I'm not mistaken, faster she gets though agreement faster she gets $$$ from you?



Yeah, clear title to the house and a six figures from my 401k. Its more than fair. 

I think she just wants to draw it out as she thought she had more time to have fun.


----------



## Turin74

Yep, because then the drama (this act at least) stops and sad reality kicks in... 


BTW, your US guys financials are so complicated  



Acoa said:


> Turin74 said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, if I'm not mistaken, faster she gets though agreement faster she gets $$$ from you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, clear title to the house and a six figures from my 401k. Its more than fair.
> 
> I think she just wants to draw it out as she thought she had more time to have fun.
Click to expand...

 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acoa

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yep, someone wants more of a chance to reconnect. Divorce goes through, all you talk about is the kids. If she drains your finances, she thinks you'll capitulate and try reconciliation again.



Nah, she is moving on. More like she is
Worried im screwing her and she thinks she can get more. But she can't. And if she tries I'll go for the house and no spousal support. It will cost me more cash (both the lawyer and to buy out her equity), but I'd probably get the house. I'm the one living in it and maintaining it! I just know she wanted it, so I came up with a way to make that work.


----------



## Acoa

Turin74 said:


> Yep, because then the drama (this act at least) stops and sad reality kicks in...
> 
> 
> BTW, your US guys financials are so complicated
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_



Yes, and yes. As confirmed by the 30 page agreement required to basically says, "take your marbles and go home."


----------



## Ripper

Acoa said:


> Yeah, clear title to the house and a six figures from my 401k. Its more than fair.


Remorseless serial cheater who put you through a false R still gets the option to walk away with a six figure divorce package and she is playing a game with it.










I would be tempted to take this thing to court just on principle. "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."

Anyway, it is still inspiring to see how well you are doing through all of this.


----------



## Turin74

Really sad, when a good decent guy (referring to another thread now) can't pay his bill or buy $50 worth of necessities because of that complexity. 

Think your "Noah, she's moving on" approach is right. It's probably tempting to see this a a sign of remorse and misery and guilt. Accordingly too many people here jump to "you won, she's at your feet" conclusion (with best intentions of course)at the 1st sign of ww being sad or cordial or just out of fog and stop being spiteful.
When in reality it is likely to be a combination of curiosity, need to be in control, desire to smooth things and justify herself, maybe plan B check and in some cases plain jealousy (what, he is OK without Me?!?) 




Acoa said:


> Turin74 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, because then the drama (this act at least) stops and sad reality kicks in...
> 
> 
> BTW, your US guys financials are so complicated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and yes. As confirmed by the 30 page agreement required to basically says, "take your marbles and go home."
Click to expand...

 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Acoa

Ripper said:


> I would be tempted to take this thing to court just on principle. "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
> 
> Anyway, it is still inspiring to see how well you are doing through all of this.


Might be satifying to make her squirm, but in the end not in my best interests. I've studied the laws that apply in my case. Consulted with my lawyers and looked at cases from situations similar to mine. I'm asking for what I believe the judge would grant if he had to decide based on the available evidence. 

And thanks for the compliment. This has been the most difficult year of my life, yet I'm still managing to do alright. The 2 years of introspection I put in during our false R have helped and I can say those 2 years were not an entire waste. I've learned a lot about myself and am healing some old wounds along with these new ones. Sort of like breaking a bone and resetting it in order to fix something that never healed properly.


----------



## Acoa

The judge accepted the joint custody judgment and it's now on file with the court. At least the parenting plan is set and I'm helping improve the stats that father's can be the residential parent. It's amazing how small of a minority I belong to now. 

As I suspected she is going to draw out the financial seperation agreement. Her latest salvo was that she wanted to get a title loan against her car to get the money to pay a lawyer to reveiw it. Problem is I'd have to sign too as my name is on the title. Told her that ain't happening. I don't want any more debt from her with my name on it. I already paid for that car once. Heck if I'm going to do it again.


----------



## Ripper

Figures.

Do you have a line in the sand for when you will decide to get ugly about all this?


----------



## Acoa

Ripper said:


> Figures.
> 
> Do you have a line in the sand for when you will decide to get ugly about all this?


Court date is set for Oct 3, we are going into that with or without an agreement. Without one will be a very different court apparence than with one.


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa! How are you, sir?


----------



## Acoa

Alright I suppose. Counting the days till our court appearance and trying not to fret over if she will sign the separation agreement or not. 

I asked her to sign it or tell me what she wants changed. She stuck to her "trying to raise money" for a lawyer Stichk. I told her that was her business and I hope she figures it out before 10/3. 

If she doesn't sign it by then I'm going to cut off her life support and go for the house. It will cost me half my stock options, but whatever, there won't be much of them
Left when the lawyers are done anyway.


----------



## LongWalk

Tell her she'll enjoy working.


----------



## Acoa

23 days to go. STBX told me she has an appointment on Monday with a lawyer recommended by a friend of hers. She says she doesn't have any plans to request changes, but want's to make sure she isn't signing away any rights and is protected as well as I seem to be protecting myself. 

It's funny that she states it that way, because all of the protections are specifically worded to be mutual. But I do agree that the legal lingo is pretty intimidating to decipher. 

I know this friend of hers, he is a retired judge. I think he would only recommend a lawyer he respects. The agreement is more than fair. This lawyer should urge her to sign it unless he is a sharlaten just out to milk her for money. We shall see.


----------



## GusPolinski

Crossing my fingers, toes, and shoelaces for you, sir.


----------



## LongWalk

Has she shown any signs of deeper insight? Remorse?

Perhaps it will take her years.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Has she shown any signs of deeper insight? Remorse?
> 
> Perhaps it will take her years.



Nope, she is distancing herself from people who don't validate her and posting about her "renewed confidence". 

I'm starting to see her as a plastic person who is surrounding herself with other plastic people. 

All the world is indeed a stage.


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> Nope, she is distancing herself from people who don't validate her and posting about her "renewed confidence".
> 
> I'm starting to see her as a plastic person who is surrounding herself with other plastic people.
> 
> All the world is indeed a stage.


Just remember this...

Plastic melts pretty damn easily.


----------



## LongWalk

Some day you might, if you were cruel, tell her that you had half-hoped that she would fight to reconcile, that she would do and say the things that would have soothed your soul, but she gave up rather easily.

I don't think you will hurt her just for the sake of it. Pointless. However, I guarantee that in the future when you are at family events she will always be looking for some sign in your eye that you still love her or desire her. Even your approval will mean a lot to her. But it will probably not happen. At most she will sort of be a proud co parent.

Feel sorry for her, but then again she did it to herself.

Plastic people


----------



## Acoa

For those who don't follow my other thread. divorce is final, I'm a free man!

Settlement worked out pretty close to what I wanted. Time to go celebrate.


----------



## BWBill

Congratulations.

You've had a tough road.


----------



## Rev. Clonn

Acoa,

all my best for a happy new life, I'm rooting for you:smthumbup:


----------



## GusPolinski

Congrats Acoa.


----------



## Clay2013

Congrats


----------



## Decorum

and now the rest of your life...


----------



## honcho

Acoa said:


> For those who don't follow my other thread. divorce is final, I'm a free man!
> 
> Settlement worked out pretty close to what I wanted. Time to go celebrate.


From someone who has had I think 7 different final dates only to have freedom yanked away time and time again I am jealous. Congrats and thank your lucky stars she didnt pull some last minute act at the hearing trying to get just a lil extra. 

Go celebrate!!!


----------



## jim123

Acoa said:


> For those who don't follow my other thread. divorce is final, I'm a free man!
> 
> Settlement worked out pretty close to what I wanted. Time to go celebrate.


Best of luck. I am sure your will move on just fine.


----------



## Acoa

It's interesting how that buried pain can resurface. The past couple weeks went well. Even with more contact with X. Doing paperwork to split assets. We even sat next to each other at D16's band concert. Not much conversation, but very civil.

Had a good weekend last weekend. Met a friend and really relaxed and enjoyed myself. 

Then last night X messages me over FB a link to a Star Trek themed hoodie, "Vulcan in the streets, Klingon in the sheets" and says it's perfect for me.

It is exactly my sense of humor and I don't think much of it so I just reply lol. I figured she messaged it as it would be weird to public post and tag. 

Then she replies "I honestly miss you". I didn't reply. Don't intend to. There is so much wrong there. But it did stir up the pain again. Not the least of which is from her using the word honestly. 

I'm sure my therapist will have fun with that this week.


----------



## Chaparral

That's sad, there is a perfect retort to her statement but I'm clueless at the moment.


----------



## Chaparral

Maybe, "you miss too many guys."


----------



## Acoa

Chaparral said:


> Maybe, "you miss too many guys."



That's the way I feel about it. But I guess it's also what sucks. I want to lash out and hurt her. But that's against what I believe.


----------



## bfree

Reply - "I miss the woman I married as well."


----------



## LongWalk

Of course she misses you. She fvcked her life up for the excitement that fornication provides. Unfortunately OM's flattery and kisses don't create a household, children, respectability, etc. All she can do now is see different men and live from hook up to hook up, trying to convert them into LTR. Tough. Maybe she will be like CTS's wife and marry a Bubba.

As for "honestly", you are right to object. She is trying to maintain the fiction that she somehow chose not to be with you in her own mind. Or perhaps she is trying to convince herself that she accepts not being married to you, has gotten over you. This little bit of false pride tells you that you are right to have divorced her and right not to R.

I don't think your wife had evil intent. She was selfish, childish, vain, foolish, careless and he list goes on.

Your pain would be far worse if she humbly apologized and did good things. You don't need a bj from her. If she got a job and took better care of your kids, that would be different story. If she got it. That would be moving.

When she sends you stupid FB messages like that. Tell her straight.

"Get a job. Be a good parent. And then in a couple of years we can laugh and joke about how we miss each other."


----------



## RV9

Welcome to your new life Acoa..


----------



## LongWalk

People who are dysfunctional in marriage will frequently be dysfunctional in divorce as well.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> People who are dysfunctional in marriage will frequently be dysfunctional in divorce as well.



Too true.


----------



## Imstrong123

Im so sorry you are going through this! The answer is.....a day at a time...it takes a long time to heal and that is if your spouse does the work that it takes to earn your trust back...to create a new history of commitment and trust in your relationship but it can take anywhere from 2 to 5 years to do that...so it is hard work, and difficult,,,but if you love her and she loves you....and you have children...then it is ok to give the WWS ONe chance to do the right thing. I did, 2 years ago and yes, he has changed dramatically, but I still think about it, many times. Keep working on yourself, attend to your children, try to not become obsessed with her....you can't control what she does, thinks, wants, you can only control what you want, think, and do...so make it very clear to her....you are not going to fo through this again, ever. When I told this to my H, he told me that ultimatums weren't good...and I replied..."it wasn't for you, it was for me"...you should have seen his face! He believed me...so stay strong and focus on yourself and your kids, and try to do fun things together. Good luck!


----------



## LongWalk

There was a period during which Acoa considered R, but his WW never even apologized properly. So R doesn't make sense. I can't imagine him being happy with her as she was even if she were chaste. Simply not to sleep with other men is not an achievement that would compensate for what she has done.

It is very clear that she indulged the weak immature side of herself. Also, she tried to get more in divorce and then collapsed back to what was agreement upon, blaming her lawyers. BS, I say. She tried to get a bit more but is scared of Acoa now.

If she wanted to improve their relationship, she would be a job an lighten the economic burden on their family and him. She would not date other men and she would constantly and appropriately express remorse. She would work her butt off to win a coffee date.

The chances of it happening are small because she is set in he ways. It is easier for her to tell herself that she doesn't really want him anymore, although the truth is she misses her old life. Probably she is also blaming herself more and more for the cheating. However, her starting point is always about what is/was good for her.

Acoa's pain hasn't come into her picture. It will but it will take time. And it will be so late as to be pointless.


----------



## bandit.45

You do good Acoa. No response was the best response. Let her move on, you move on. Find a woman deserving of you.


----------



## nanofaan

Acoe anything new with you


----------



## Acoa

Nothing much, all quiet on the western front. Just enjoying the tranquility.


----------



## G.J.

Acoa I really hope you will find happiness after these last few years of hell 

That is now the 4th discovery and separation thread I have read I really need to read one next from a husband's betrayal before I go completely off women altogether.


----------



## LongWalk

There are plenty of good women's threads but they don't last as long. Women aren't as needy/they have support IRL.


----------



## Acoa

I've been chatting with a woman whose husband was a serial cheater. While not exactly like my ex, it's amazing how many similarities her ex has with mine. We even joked we should introduce them, they sound perfect for each other. 

And I agree with Longwalk. There are plenty of women who get dumped on by their husbands. They just tend to share their pain privately with a few close friends. 

Guys get bad advice from their buddies. Like get drunk, or get over her by getting under another. 

Women on the other hand "typically" have some friends who give good advice. Less need to seek it out in an online forum.


----------



## leon1

I just finished reading your story . Wow it had a lot of shocks , im glad you seem to be doing so well after going through so much , shows real strength.You should cut off any contact with your ex unless its to do with the kids .


----------



## mr.bunbury

I was skimming through this post today reading mainly OP's posts and sometimes you (im talking to the OP here) are asking yourself if your Ex Wife has a double personality disorder or smth similar to it. Id say that is far from the case. Those who suffer from it are confused very often, like if one person takes over then after the switch it will be some time before they will remember what they did. But your wife had her eyes on the ball so beautifully and craftily and that excludes that. If she goes to the shrink and tells the story they might come up with smth but you and I know there is nothing really wrong with her except she is an expert manipulator and con-woman.

Is your son still going to the theater? Must be really awkward for him knowing that people know, specially since it was his mom that was screwing around, would have been easier if it were you.

Id stay away from her FB if I were you. No doubt your ex Wife knows that youre dropping in seeing what she is up to and she enjoys you worrying yourself how she is screwing other people around while you're taking care of kids. You can get your revenge on it pointing out to the kids that you were the one taking care of them because their mom was busy sleeping around.


----------



## Acoa

Kinda old news. 

The play my son was in is over. 

Divorce is final and ex and I hardly ever talk, and when we do it's about the kids. 

The kids know quite a bit, and they know which parent they can count on. I encourage them to maintain a relationship with their mother, but I stay out of the middle of it.


----------



## LongWalk

She doesn't have much to say. But what topics could come easily?

You have give her money. She still doesn't work. Those are a couple subjects she probably would prefer not to mention.

"I am really sorry that I was a serial cheater," is something she was never able to say. And once it's said, then what?

I can't imagine that you'll ever long to see her or chat with her again. Her self esteem is probably rock bottom. The only way she could improve it would be to get work and be a better parent. If she is already dating, she must be loath to tell your children that she found another man. Mom's destructive sex drive is kinda gross to them.

Hope she doesn't self harm or drink.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> She doesn't have much to say. But what topics could come easily?
> 
> You have give her money. She still doesn't work. Those are a couple subjects she probably would prefer not to mention.
> 
> "I am really sorry that I was a serial cheater," is something she was never able to say. And once it's said, then what?
> 
> I can't imagine that you'll ever long to see her or chat with her again. Her self esteem is probably rock bottom. The only way she could improve it would be to get work and be a better parent. If she is already dating, she must be loath to tell your children that she found another man. Mom's destructive sex drive is kinda gross to them.
> 
> Hope she doesn't self harm or drink.



I doubt she could express true remorse. Maybe she could feign it well using the embarrassment of being caught to fuel her performance. 

She posted on FB for prayers for a job interview. Sounds like she is still being very selective in what she applies for, but it's promising that she is at least looking. Maybe I won't be paying the full 3 years.

She will hide her dating life from the kids and her family until she is ready to marry again. Kind of gross to them is putting it lightly. She has zero moral credibility to them.

I doubt she will self harm, but an addiction isn't out of the question. With the crowd she hangs with, booze would be the least of the possibilities. Hopefully not. I need her to be able to pass the drug test if she is offered a job. 

I've been spending more time working on me. I've learned a lot about myself and am using this opportunity to grow. I'm more confident now about my good qualities, and more aware of attributes I need to improve. 

Without her around to derail progress that self improvement is moving along nicely.

My focus at work is returning, and the good days outnumber the bad. Triggers are still there, but not as many, and not as powerful.


----------



## happyman64

Good for you acoa.
kEep the focus on you.

Enjoy the holidays with your family.

HM


----------



## LongWalk

Perhaps it is fortunate that she did not make a 3/4 serious attempt to express remorse, it would have created a dilemma for you. In her own mind she meant well but made mistakes, for which she believes you could have forgiven as if she ate two helpings desert.


----------



## Acoa

I've decided to dive into the dating pool. I signed up to a dating site 2 days ago, and already have 3 dates lined up. 

2 I'm just meeting for coffee to see if there is any chemistry, and one had really cute pictures and a stable career, so I took a chance and set up a dinner. 

What to wear? Lol. 

Ex found out from the kids I was looking and called to warn me that a lot of people were just looking for hook ups and to be careful. lol, I told here a few hook ups would be fun, that I'm a big boy and I'll be fine. 

And I did check, I'm on a totally different dating site than she is. 

I'm more nervous that I'll find Mrs right too quickly. I really want a few Mrs right now first, lol.


----------



## farsidejunky

Good for you, Acoa. 

Take your time, have fun, try a few on for fit.

You have it coming.


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> I've decided to dive into the dating pool. I signed up to a dating site 2 days ago, and already have 3 dates lined up.
> 
> 2 I'm just meeting for coffee to see if there is any chemistry, and one had really cute pictures and a stable career, so I took a chance and set up a dinner.
> 
> What to wear? Lol.
> 
> *Ex found out from the kids I was looking and called to warn me that a lot of people were just looking for hook ups and to be careful.* lol, I told here a few hook ups would be fun, that I'm a big boy and I'll be fine.
> 
> And I did check, I'm on a totally different dating site than she is.
> 
> I'm more nervous that I'll find Mrs right too quickly. I really want a few Mrs right now first, lol.


:lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: 

I guess she'd know, right?


----------



## GusPolinski

farsidejunky said:


> Good for you, Acoa.
> 
> Take your time, have fun, try a few on for fit.
> 
> *You have it coming.*


Giggity!


----------



## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:
> 
> I guess she'd know, right?


It is telling that she would say that. Is shows what she thinks of Acoa.

That he is relationship material, not hook up material.

If anything it shows she is still carrying a torch for you.

Too bad...


----------



## happyman64

Acoa

Just have fun and keep it light until someone special tickles your fancy.

Your outlook is great.

I hate mentioning your Ex but you once said she would be back in a relationship before you. Is she?

HM


----------



## GusPolinski

farsidejunky said:


> It is telling that she would say that. Is shows what she thinks of Acoa.
> 
> That he is relationship material, not hook up material.
> 
> If anything it shows she is still carrying a torch for you.
> 
> Too bad...


Indeed.

<channeling LongWalk>

Acoa, to what degree do you believe your ex is capable of separating love from sex? Do you believe that this is what she was doing? And, if so, how are you able to reconcile the fact that she was spending time w/ at least one of her OM's (at a car show, IIRC) that didn't involve sex?

Do you think that she'd have felt as betrayed as you did if she'd discovered you in an NSA/FWB affair?

Do you believe that she could wind up in an "open_ish_" -- or even polyamorous -- type of relationship? And, aside from her affairs, did she ever _outwardly_ indicate a desire for your marriage to "evolve" into any such arrangement?

</channel>


----------



## bfree

I think this might be a painful line of questioning for Acoa. If I were in his position I'd be looking forward not back.


----------



## bfree

Acoa said:


> I've decided to dive into the dating pool. I signed up to a dating site 2 days ago, and already have 3 dates lined up.
> 
> 2 I'm just meeting for coffee to see if there is any chemistry, and one had really cute pictures and a stable career, so I took a chance and set up a dinner.
> 
> What to wear? Lol.
> 
> Ex found out from the kids I was looking and called to warn me that a lot of people were just looking for hook ups and to be careful. lol, I told here a few hook ups would be fun, that I'm a big boy and I'll be fine.
> 
> And I did check, I'm on a totally different dating site than she is.
> 
> I'm more nervous that I'll find Mrs right too quickly. I really want a few Mrs right now first, lol.


Congrats on moving past the grieving (well mostly) and beginning a new phase of your life. I bet it's a little scary to be putting yourself out there again but wait until the ladies get a look at Acoa version 2.0


----------



## farsidejunky

bfree said:


> I think this might be a painful line of questioning for Acoa. If I were in his position I'd be looking forward not back.


It may be. But if it still painful, then there's still work to be done.


----------



## bfree

farsidejunky said:


> It may be. But if it still painful, then there's still work to be done.


Some wounds never fully heal and picking at the scar doesn't really do anyone any good.


----------



## GusPolinski

bfree said:


> I think this might be a painful line of questioning for Acoa. If I were in his position I'd be looking forward not back.


I actually hadn't considered that. He seems to be pretty detached from his ex at this point, so hopefully that won't be the case.


----------



## BashfulB

> Ex found out from the kids I was looking and called to warn me that a lot of people were just looking for hook ups and to be careful. lol, I told here a few hook ups would be fun, that I'm a big boy and I'll be fine.


Oh...how magnanamus of her. It's so good to see she has such concern for your well being...


----------



## Nucking Futs

Acoa said:


> I've decided to dive into the dating pool. I signed up to a dating site 2 days ago, and already have 3 dates lined up.
> 
> 2 I'm just meeting for coffee to see if there is any chemistry, and one had really cute pictures and a stable career, so I took a chance and set up a dinner.
> 
> *What to wear?* Lol.
> 
> Ex found out from the kids I was looking and called to warn me that a lot of people were just looking for hook ups and to be careful. lol, I told here a few hook ups would be fun, that I'm a big boy and I'll be fine.
> 
> And I did check, I'm on a totally different dating site than she is.
> 
> I'm more nervous that I'll find Mrs right too quickly. I really want a few Mrs right now first, lol.


----------



## Dyokemm

"Ex found out from the kids I was looking and called to warn me that a lot of people were just looking for hook ups and to be careful."

I hope you told her she is the last person on the planet you would want or take relationship advice from.

She's proven her ability to handle and live honestly in a relationship of any kind is absolute sh*t.


----------



## Chaparral

Nucking Futs said:


>


I was thinking a toga over jorts, everyone likes a toga party.


----------



## Acoa

happyman64 said:


> Acoa
> 
> 
> 
> I hate mentioning your Ex but you once said she would be back in a relationship before you. Is she?
> 
> 
> 
> HM



I have no idea. Our parenting agreement says we can't bring our dates around our kids until it's serious. And I don't ask.


----------



## Acoa

GusPolinski said:


> Indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acoa, to what degree do you believe your ex is capable of separating love from sex? Do you believe that this is what she was doing? And, if so, how are you able to reconcile the fact that she was spending time w/ at least one of her OM's (at a car show, IIRC) that didn't involve sex?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that she'd have felt as betrayed as you did if she'd discovered you in an NSA/FWB affair?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you believe that she could wind up in an "open_ish_" -- or even polyamorous -- type of relationship? And, aside from her affairs, did she ever _outwardly_ indicate a desire for your marriage to "evolve" into any such arrangement?



She'd never want to be in an open/poly relationship. She wants to be perceived as the good girl. Low self esteem, desperate need for peer approval and lack of impulse control are her downfall. That side of her disgusted herself, so she hides it and lies about it. And frankly my dear I no longer give a damn.


----------



## LongWalk

She is on her own and it still bothers her. After all you were supposed to grow old together. OM's physical traces could be washed off.

She probably would have loved the drama of a revenge affair so that you could have an amazing reconciliation.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> She probably would have loved the drama of a revenge affair so that you could have an amazing reconciliation.



Probably, and that's so against my nature it would screw with my head. I'm glad I waited till I was officially single. I don't plan to be a man *****, but I'm also not holding out for "the one". Serial monogamy sounds good.


----------



## Acoa

Date 1 complete, went well, but she ain't the one. 

But I do believe women smell each other on a man. My ex called again to "check in", obviously fishing for an invite she'll never get. Then I went to a game night with a buddy, and two of the women there were competing for my attention.

More fun than a barrel of monkeys.


----------



## LongWalk

Your ex has her hopes up because your appearance on the dating scene gives her a chance to reclaim you, to her way of thinking at any rate. We know you are strong enough not to entertain the idea of hooking up with her. It would be a mistake at any level.

If you are careful in dating, you can find someone better than your ex, way better.

You can always feel some sort of affection for her as the mother of your children, but she doesn't deserve the status of romantic partner in life. She completely blew that.

Actually, a good friendly relationship based on respect would be a good thing. If she ever asks your advice, pause and after careful consideration offer her your best conclusion. See if she follows it. If she does not and does something dumb, then you know she is not humble.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Acoa, what red flags in women are you on the lookout for when dating?

Best wishes


----------



## Acoa

HobbesTheTiger said:


> Acoa, what red flags in women are you on the lookout for when dating?
> 
> 
> 
> Best wishes



The list is long and distinguished, but a few of the top ones:

- inability to support themselves (aka, can't hold a job, looking to rush cohabitation or just not good handling her money)
- lazy with housework, doesn't have to be OCD level cleaner, but keeps her place picked up and orderly. 
- can't cook, only okay if she has a highly successful career. Everyone should know how to cook, male or female. If not they better be working their tail off so they can afford to pay someone to do it.
- honesty, actions not lining up with words. Stream of excuses or placing blame on everything but themselves. 
- thinks too highly of themselves, looking for someone to worship them because they are God's gift to man.
- wants sex too quickly 
- drinks to excess or does drugs
- speaks poorly of family, friends. (Some ex bashing is okay, but too much would be a flag)

There is of course my list of non-negotiable things, like non smoker and has kids not more than 5 years younger than mine, plus a bunch of others. But those are more personal taste than red flags.


----------



## convert

Acoa said:


> The list is long and distinguished, but a few of the top ones:
> 
> - inability to support themselves (aka, can't hold a job, looking to rush cohabitation or just not good handling her money)
> - lazy with housework, doesn't have to be OCD level cleaner, but keeps her place picked up and orderly.
> - can't cook, only okay if she has a highly successful career. Everyone should know how to cook, male or female. If not they better be working their tail off so they can afford to pay someone to do it.
> - honesty, actions not lining up with words. Stream of excuses or placing blame on everything but themselves.
> - thinks too highly of themselves, looking for someone to worship them because they are God's gift to man.
> - wants sex too quickly
> - drinks to excess or does drugs
> - speaks poorly of family, friends. (Some ex bashing is okay, but too much would be a flag)
> 
> There is of course my list of non-negotiable things, like non smoker and has kids not more than 5 years younger than mine, plus a bunch of others. But those are more personal taste than red flags.


Holly cow, Acoa, don't set the bar to high.....

just kidding those are some good points to look for


----------



## Acoa

Had a two great dates the past two nights. Last night was a real spark. Attractive, successful and laughed at all my dumb jokes. Going to ask her out on another date for sure.


----------



## Acoa

Been a fun few months dating various women. One is getting serious and we are going to start dating exclusively now. 

She is smart, fun and successful. It's going to be a great summer.


----------



## TOMTEFAR

Great update !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Doyle

Nice one mate pleased for you. 

Well deserved.


----------



## Borntohang

Woo! Hoo! You deserve it Acoa! I hope this is the beginning of a wonderful new chapter for you. Enjoy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## harrybrown

Fantastic.

Does the ex know?

Hope this one is a keeper.


----------



## Acoa

Just checking in. Things are still going great. I introduced her to the kids and my brother on the 4th of July. 

We are spending a lot of time together and generally acting like teenagers. Concerts, movies and evenings sitting in the backyard chatting for hours. 

Ex knows and is 'happy for me'. I don't talk to or see her much anymore, which is just fine.


----------



## LongWalk

Your ex may have a bit of psychological tramp stamp dogging her. She is doesn't want to think of herself as bitter, so she approves of your happiness. 

Hope she is in therapy and not dumping her angst on your kids.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Hope she is in therapy and not dumping her angst on your kids.


She is in therapy. Even after the mandated outpatient treatments were done she continues to see a therapist. She seems to be doing a good job compartmentalizing and keeping the kids out of her angst. At least from what I can tell. I don't ask them anything about her, or have them relay information to her.


----------



## GusPolinski

How're you doing these days, @Acoa?


----------



## Acoa

GusPolinski said:


> How're you doing these days, @Acoa?


life is good. Now and then I still slide down the slope and feel sad over what should have been. But that happens less and less. 

2 years left on alimony, not that I'm counting. Oh wait, I am. 

Almost at 4 months with a new woman and it's going great. No pressure, she doesn't need me, but wants me. The sex is great and we both take turns planning adventures. We went to a Jimmy Buffet concert last weekend. This weekend is a big block party and then celebrating my youngest' Bday. We are going to Vegas in September and Key west in November. 

And when we are not adventuring and leading the "its 5 o'clock somewhere" life; we can just lay on the couch talking for hours about everything and nothing. 

The girls are back to school and doing well. My son seems to be trying, but has a hard hill to climb after letting his grades go to crap last year. Being on academic probation makes it difficult to get money for college. He screwed around last year partying and not going to class, so I cut off his funding until he proves he is going to take things seriously. I don't have thousands to burn, which is what he did last year. $4k and zero credits to show for it. He failed theatre appreciation. I didn't even think that was possible.


----------



## LongWalk

Kid are a challenge. My nephew failed every course for his entire freshman year at the big state U. He spend time abroad. My brother thinks was drinking a lot. He is now trying to start over in community college. I wonder if it's a psychological problem.

The most important thing is to make certain he isn't drinking or doing drugs.


----------



## Acoa

Good news, Ex got a full time job. It pays enough that Alimony terminates. That takes a lot of pressure off the finances.

D17 and D21 seem to be doing well. Coming out of their shells and enjoying life. I still worry about S19. He is doing okay, but seems to be insistent on taking a difficult path in life. Not sure how to help him. I've tried helping him financially with school, but he just takes it for granted and doesn't show up to classes. He is holding down a job, but has been wasting most of that money partying. He needs to invest in his car now, which seems to have his attention. Part time minimum wage jobs may not be the best career path.

The lady friend and I are planning a get away to Key West. All in all, life is good. Looking forward to key lime pie, rum and blue waters.


----------



## Clay2013

Acoa said:


> Good news, Ex got a full time job. It pays enough that Alimony terminates. That takes a lot of pressure off the finances.
> 
> D17 and D21 seem to be doing well. Coming out of their shells and enjoying life. I still worry about S19. He is doing okay, but seems to be insistent on taking a difficult path in life. Not sure how to help him. I've tried helping him financially with school, but he just takes it for granted and doesn't show up to classes. He is holding down a job, but has been wasting most of that money partying. He needs to invest in his car now, which seems to have his attention. Part time minimum wage jobs may not be the best career path.
> 
> The lady friend and I are planning a get away to Key West. All in all, life is good. Looking forward to key lime pie, rum and blue waters.


You deserve nothing but happiness.  Your kids will pull through it. It just takes time. 

C


----------



## bandit.45

Acoa said:


> The lady friend and I are planning a get away to Key West. All in all, life is good. Looking forward to key lime pie, rum and blue waters.



If you have time, take a ferry out to the Dry Tortugas State Park. It is a lot of fun. Crystal blue water, and the old fort there is interesting. When I went there I went snorkeling and I got caught in the middle of a huge school of spotted eagle rays...must have been fifty of them swimming around me. It was pretty amazing.

https://www.drytortugas.com/key-west-ferry


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Acoa said:


> I still worry about S19. He is doing okay, but seems to be insistent on taking a difficult path in life. Not sure how to help him. I've tried helping him financially with school, but he just takes it for granted and doesn't show up to classes. He is holding down a job, but has been wasting most of that money partying. He needs to invest in his car now, which seems to have his attention. Part time minimum wage jobs may not be the best career path.


Take it from a fellow knucklehead, relax a bit. The best thing my parents did was let me know I had a place to land, but let me crash and burn. Took me a while, but I do have my Masters Degree and a good family. Still, I wonder how far I would have fallen if they would've continually bailed me out.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Acoa said:


> The lady friend and I are planning a get away to Key West. All in all, life is good. Looking forward to key lime pie, rum and blue waters.


Don't forget the grouper and mahi mahi fish. When I went to the Keys to visit my Uncle, I ate group, mahi mahi and conch chowder every day.

I stayed away from the shrimp though. Warmer water shrimp tends to be "ammoniaie".

And don't ask the locals for directions to the "Cheeseburger In Paradise" restaurant. When I did, back in '98, you'd of thought I'd insulted their Grandmothers. They don't care much for Jimmy Buffet down there and they're not afraid to let you know it.

Oh ya, watch out for fire ant mounds. I stepped on one while taking a picture and it felt like I dipped my feet in a fryolator. I still have a few hundred tiny scars to prove it.

Have an awesome time. YOU deserve it.:smile2:


----------



## bandit.45

The Key West chickens are a hoot too. 

Don't ask. You'll see when you get there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

One positive lesson: your children learned that cheating has consequences.


----------



## GusPolinski

LongWalk said:


> One positive lesson: your children learned that cheating has consequences.


...and, more importantly, that lying and cheating, having already been caught lying and cheating, and then promising to end the lying and cheating, SHOULD have consequences.


----------



## LongWalk

I am sure that the former Mrs Acoa has a lot more respect for him now than when they were married. She never would have got it if he hadn't divorced her. She doesn't get to grow old together with him.

Acoa,

Now that she is working, there is a better chance that you can stand speaking to her. But then again why bother?


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Now that she is working, there is a better chance that you can stand speaking to her. But then again why bother?



I put on my big boy pants and have no issue being polite when we talk. We talk occasionally regarding the kids. 

Not funding her helps, but still, I don't see us as anything more than coparents. I'm much happier and centered these days. She still rationalizes her poor choices, I'm convinced more than ever that divorce was the best path for me. 

It was like I stepped off the spinning top of crazy on to stable ground again. I was a little disoriented on the first few steps. But little by little that dizziness is fading and everything is much easier to deal with.


----------



## Acoa

GusPolinski said:


> ...and, more importantly, that lying and cheating, having already been caught lying and cheating, and then promising to end the lying and cheating, SHOULD have consequences.


Wish they could have learned that lesson an easier way.

One thing for sure, they realize I'm patient, fair, but don't F around. When I lay out a consequence, they know I'll follow through. Dad doesn't make threats. He keeps promises.


----------



## LongWalk

You painted a very good portrait of your ex. She hated the idea of expending all her sex appeal on you. Turned out she did not have enough sex appeal to lure you back. Once her loyalty and honesty were no longer credible, she did not have much to offer.

Is she still into the theater scene?


----------



## Mrtruth

Just read your thread and wanted to say you are the man. Wish everyone on here had your strength to handle things as well as you did.


----------



## Acoa

LongWalk said:


> Is she still into the theater scene?



Very much into it. Even misses some of her parenting time due to involvement in it. 

She tries to make up for it, but it's still disappointing. She is who she is and the kids are used to it. I keep easy to make meals on hand for them so it doesn't throw off my plans if she falls through. 

She even told them how much happier she is to be living alone. /facepalm


----------



## Acoa

Mrtruth said:


> Just read your thread and wanted to say you are the man. Wish everyone on here had your strength to handle things as well as you did.



Thanks, I made a lot of mistakes early, but made up for lost time on the tail end. I'm glad I found TAM. Not all the advice was for me, but even the posts I disagreed with gave me new perspective.


----------



## LongWalk

She is happier alone because she cannot deal with the responsibility.


----------



## Acoa

Happy new year! Figured I'd post a follow up. 

Might have been cheaper to keep her, but I can't say I regret that expense. Life is pretty darn good these days. Spent a few months dating around last year. Met someone very cool and we decided to go exclusive over the summer. That is still going well, and it's nice having someone who looks out for me and cares about my kids. No pressure to take things further. She understands where I'm at and is just happy to be with me. 

We have both started working on getting more physically fit. It's been interesting to see the affect on both my daughters. They want to plug in to our workout program. My oldest is planing to walk a half marathon with us in April. Both come to the healthclub as often as they can.

My son is still finding his way. He went through a pretty unhappy phase last year and I needed to sit back and let him struggle. Difficult not to step in, but as he is 19, and created his problem, he needed to deal with it. He dug out from the worst of it. I'd really like to see him come up with some plan for his life, but he isn't there yet. Maybe soon. 

Haven't talked to the ex this year. The kids are old enough, they can handle setting up visits on their own. So, there isn't much we need to discuss. Yay me!

It's been nice having the extra cash now that alimony has been over for while. I don't feel like I'm living paycheck to paycheck any longer. If we want to go do something fun, we can. Right now we are saving up for a trip to Disney to run the half marathon and a couple days at the park. 

Are things perfect? no. Do I still occasionally have a bad day? Yup. But all in all, I'm very happy and have a good life right now. It really has me asking myself, why didn't I do this earlier?


----------



## happyman64

Good update Acoa.

Keep your kids involved with the activities.

One of the ways I got my kids into my physical fitness was through my Fitbit.

Soon my two youngest daughters wanted fitbits and we compete daily for fun. "How many steps did you do today?"

How many miles did you walk today?"

Now my wife wants a Fitbit.

And your right. Your son will finds his way out of his own whole. just keep being a positive influence.

Glad your life is good.

HM


----------



## Clay2013

Great update. Life does move forward and it sounds like your doing all the right things.


----------



## JohnA

When you get to the point when life is good for you, and you don't care what the state of her's is in or ever will be, you are healed. The scars are still there but you see them as friends that guide you not to make the same mistakes again. They only serve to prompt you to live aware not in fear. You wake up look at the new women next to you and say yea, I'm all in and she is going to be amazed at who I've become.


----------



## farsidejunky

Awesome, brother!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Acoa

Ran the half marathon a couple weeks ago. There were 44k runners with around 19k completing the race. The new GF and I both finished about middle of the pack. Not exactly elite finishing times, but we finished. I only had one blister. GF and I both finished then walked another 100,000 steps visiting the Disneyworld parks the following days. So, we could have pushed ourselves and gotten a better time, but the goal was to finish and not get hurt, which we accomplished. 

We had been talking that if my EX brought up the topic of her lease we would explore the possibility of me moving out of the house and in with her. It started as one of those 'what if things' but as it turned out, it was prophetic and we will be moving in together this summer. The kids will each have a room at her house, but they can stay at either house. We will keep the youngest's address the same for school purposes. I'll get her a car and driving from the GF's house is about the same commute time as her walking from the current place. 

The kids are a little stressed about the move, which sucks. The GF is doing a great job of being nurturing and welcoming to the kids. My youngest feels very at home there. We still need to work on making sure the older two feel welcome there. I'm looking forward to the move as I finally won't be surrounded by mountains of my exes stuff! 

It's been difficult learning to trust someone to actually follow through on what they say the will do. But I think I can get used to it! We celebrated our first year together last night with scotch and cigars! I love how this woman rolls.


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## farsidejunky

Awesome, brother, on both the half marathon and the progression of your relationship. 

Keep being great.

How is the XW in the parenting department? Is all well there?


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## bandit.45

I like the fact that your exWW doesn't even factor into your updates anymore.


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## Acoa

farsidejunky said:


> How is the XW in the parenting department? Is all well there?


XW has been mostly absent as far as co parenting goes. With our D17 she has dinner with her twice a week, but misses that a couple times per month, and a couple times per month it's just a short drop off of a burger and fries. She see S19 maybe once per month and D22 3 or 4 times per month. 

The kids currently intend to stay in the house after I move out and she moves back in, but they are glad we will have rooms set up for them as they fear things could break bad and they may come to live with us. 

GF and I are prepared to make it work either way. We invite the kids to her house every weekend and typically for a dinner during the week as well already. So, they are getting comfortable with her place and it's already becoming the go to place to hang out.


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## Acoa

So, ex got dumped this week. Her new man dumped her for someone else. She posted some silly Meme on her FB about how she's been lied to and hurt. Am I a bad person for giggling at that?

The house exchange happens in 2 months. I figure this ought to introduce some new crazy in our interactions. I'm going on red alert and putting the shields up. 

In other news, I'm starting the process of introducing my dog to my GF's pets. We are sending her dog away for the weekend so we can focus on my dog and her cat. Hopefully we can teach my dog that cats are friends and not food! I'm happy to report that so far this is the biggest source of anxiety of us moving into together; blending our four legged families. 

The kids seem to be adjusting, almost looking forward to having a bedroom in each house. I'm still not sure how many nights they will be spending at each, but my guess is over time it will be more and more in the new house. The older 2 will likely both go away in the fall, so we are planning lots of time in the backyard grilling, entertain friends (ours and theirs) and relaxing. GF has an awesome backyard. We have spent a lot of time cleaning, organizing and planting the garden. We bought a kick a$$ grill and plan to spend the summer in our new awesome relaxing chill zone.


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## bfree

She likes the theater right? Tell her you would act like you give a damn but that's her forte.


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## convert

Acoa said:


> So, ex got dumped this week. Her new man dumped her for someone else. *She posted some silly Meme on her FB about how she's been lied to and hurt.* Am I a bad person for giggling at that?
> 
> The house exchange happens in 2 months. I figure this ought to introduce some new crazy in our interactions. I'm going on red alert and putting the shields up.


how ironic 
now maybe she know a little how it feels.

Did you post something on her face book post?

It would have been hard not to.

maybe a laughing emoticon like :rofl: or :yay:


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## Dyokemm

convert said:


> how ironic
> now maybe she know a little how it feels.
> 
> Did you post something on her face book post?
> 
> It would have been hard not to.
> 
> maybe a laughing emoticon like :rofl: or :yay:


I think a better one....even more biting and a little more classy then laughter would be just a simple word:

Karma


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

Dyokemm said:


> I think a better one....even more biting and a little more classy then laughter would be just a simple word:
> 
> Karma


He should change his main FB background photo to one of these...


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## MattMatt

This reminds me of a Peanuts cartoon.

Someone had said or done something really dumb and Snoopy from the roof of his doghouse thinks to himself: "My mind reels with sarcastic replies!"


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acoa

MattMatt said:


> Snoopy from the roof of his doghouse thinks to himself: "My mind reels with sarcastic replies!"


Exactly, but I'll keep my sarcasm off Facebook. To react in any way would just be inviting her to interact on something other than the kids.

Besides, I have better things to post on. Like a picture of an awesome pork loin roast I had for dinner last night. Stuffed with cilantro/lime rice, grilled pineapple and green pepper, then wrapped in bacon. OMG!










Had all three kids over, we hung out in the back yard chatting, eating, playing with fire. It was very relaxing, and delicious.


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## GusPolinski

Damn that looks awesome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> Exactly, but I'll keep my sarcasm off Facebook. To react in any way would just be inviting her to interact on something other than the kids.


Should've clicked "Like" on her post.

:lol: :rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Her reality stings. No need to rub it in. 

If Acoa is nice to her and indifferent, that just makes her regret it all even more.

She probably fantasizes about make up sex and reconciliation; it's not 50 Shades or anything just a fairytale.


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## GusPolinski

I wouldn't go so far as to say that this is the Karma Bus hitting her. I mean... losing a boyfriend of a few months vs a marriage of roughly 20 years...? There's just no comparison, IMO.

Now... if it happens to her over and over and over...?

Maybe.


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## Acoa

Finished moving in with GF last night. Surprisingly easy so far. Even on Saturday when the heat index was over 100 and we were both exhausted we had fun with it. It's nice being with someone who can recognize and express what they are feeling without being snippy or angry. Which is hard to do on days like that.

Very freeing to be out of the marital home and the piles of XW's junk all around me. Also a bit eye opening how much junk I've collected over the years. How many mason jars does a man really need? I'll need to organize the garage and set it up for some decent storage, it looks like a junk pile right now. 

D22 is going away to college next month. She is pretty stressed about it and XW's own anxiety seems to be amping her up. I think she will be fine once she makes the move, but it will be a stressful month for her. S20 is doing well, and maturing quite a bit which is good to see. He had me worried a year ago. D18 is starting to realize that her mom stresses her out. She went from not wanting a driver's licence to 'can we go driving now' in less than 24 hours. Seems she recognizes the independence that will giver her.


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## farsidejunky

Awesome update, Acoa.


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## Dyokemm

When your xWW sees you living in happy comfort with your gf, with the kids around for BBQ's or holiday celebrations......while she continues alone and miserable.

I predict, at THAT moment it is finally going to smack her fully in the face what she threw away for some sex with a bunch of scumbags.

My next prediction is she will go out and buy a couple of cats.

Glad everything is going great for you Acoa!


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## turnera

Acoa, any way you can take some time off and just go 'be with' your DD22 for a week or two as she moves into college? It's an incredibly stressful time, and you renting a hotel/motel room for a week or so to be near her, take her out to dinner, take her on walks to relieve the stress...all incredibly important things to a young woman. BTDT. I remember one year staying on DD25's dorm couch over Thanksgiving because Best Buy wouldn't give her the time off. We had Thanksgiving dinner at Denny's. One of my favorite memories. You can be there for her.


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## Acoa

Dyokemm said:


> My next prediction is she will go out and buy a couple of cats.


lol, funny you should mention that. She already got one. She is trying to keep it a secret but DD18 let it slip as she is pissed about it. She doesn't keep a clean house, already has 3 dogs, 2 fish and a lizzard. The cat stays locked in the basement all day and DD18 says she thinks the cat would have a better life on the streets than with her mom.

To say mom moving back into the house has been stressful on the kids would be an understatement.


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## Acoa

turnera said:


> Acoa, any way you can take some time off and just go 'be with' your DD22 for a week or two as she moves into college? It's an incredibly stressful time, and you renting a hotel/motel room for a week or so to be near her, take her out to dinner, take her on walks to relieve the stress...all incredibly important things to a young woman. BTDT. I remember one year staying on DD25's dorm couch over Thanksgiving because Best Buy wouldn't give her the time off. We had Thanksgiving dinner at Denny's. One of my favorite memories. You can be there for her.


Not a bad idea, but no. I need to work, but I will go down for the weekend. 

We are doing what we can to reduce her stress. She won't have to work while she is down there. We are going to fund her so she can focus on school. It's a 4 hour drive and she'll have her car down there if she needs to make an escape. There is a parents weekend a couple weeks after move in that I'll go down for as well.


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## MovingFrwrd

Spent the last few days reading through your thread. You sir, have been through a LOT. Hats off to you for your level head throughout the pain and process. About a quarter of the way through, it appeared you were well on your way to R, but I saw there was an additional 40+ pages or so to go, and my mind just went, "Uh oh" as I just kept waiting for the other shoe to drop.

That had to be hell, and glad you've come out for the better on the other side. Reading through your thoughts and how you handled things helps me, and thank you for following up on your thread.


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## Acoa

MovingFrwrd said:


> Spent the last few days reading through your thread. You sir, have been through a LOT. Hats off to you for your level head throughout the pain and process. About a quarter of the way through, it appeared you were well on your way to R, but I saw there was an additional 40+ pages or so to go, and my mind just went, "Uh oh" as I just kept waiting for the other shoe to drop.
> 
> That had to be hell, and glad you've come out for the better on the other side. Reading through your thoughts and how you handled things helps me, and thank you for following up on your thread.


You're welcome, and you read this whole thread? That's a mini hell in itself, lol. I've read back through it a few times. Very interesting to read and reflect on where my head was a that particular point in time. 

One common thing I notice is that the worst times were always proceeded by me doubting my gut instinct. My gut was almost always wrong about the specifics, but it was always right about 'something'. If you break it down to who, what, where, why and how, the gut tries to fill in all the blanks. But is probably only correct on one or two. If I found out I was wrong on one, I just assumed my gut was entirely wrong. 

If a newbie runs across this thread, that's a point I'd like them to walk away with. Trust what you feel. You are not 'reconciled' until it's all back in sync. Keep up with your own therapy, and keep sorting out those feelings until you are happy again.


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