# does this really affect women? my manning up story.



## elph

okay. short synopsis of my story, can also be found here
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24004-after-d-day-stuff.html

wifes been having affair since jan. possibly sooner. shes moving out at end of month. i filed for legal separation. shes leaving reluctantly. i avoided contact with her affair partner (also a coworker of hers) since, dont want to go to jail, lose time with my son, etc. because i know id lose it. been working on myself and getting ready for possiblilty of life with out my wife, though i do want to reconcile, but obviously cant happen while shes in the fog/affair.

so this happened tuesday.

i go by her apt. to drop something off. its morning and her day off and shes getting the place ready. i see his truck out side as he is on his lunch break. i keep telling my self to drive away, but instead i park. head up to the apt. and see him on the floor eating lunch. i tell him to leave and he says its her place her rules. somthing hell repeat over and over again without actually doing anything.

so i get pissed, fick the food on the ground and get in his face. mind youhes 6'2 and i 5'6 1/2.
i tell him to leave, pretty sure i called him a *****, asked him what he was gonna do, pretty sure i threw in a whatd youexect when you o after a nother mans wife..

she told me to get out, and i wouldnt, i just stayed in his face and he kept backing away. no punches were thrown, but he did leave and while doing it telling me to leave her alone.

he went downstairs and called the cops.

they showed up, i knew both of them, went straight to them and gave them mystory and the whole affair situation. both said theyd let me have at if it wansnt for the badges. 
the OM said he was going to file a restraining order against me, but is pissed that my wife isnt. .

now this is where itgets confusing. the next day i get outof the shower and my wife asks me why im covering up. i said no reason, she mentioned that she noticed that ive been working out and losin weight and that it was never so appearant than the confrontation when i "puffed up" (her words)

she told her coworker about the incident, and my wife said, shed never seen me like that before. however the coworker noticed the way she said it, like something got triggered.

shes still moving out. im out of the contry for a few days, butim getting alot of missing you and thelike emails, even caught her sitting on the side of mybed before she eft for work one morning justsitting looking at me.

so m question is this, ladies.

coulda confrontation with the other man had such a profound affect?

how would you feel if your man did something like that?


just call it natural curiosity


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## heartsbeating

I don't like physical confrontation but I'll admit that one of the few times I've seen my H that way, it did leave an impression on me. We were walking in a crowded street and I can't remember how it happened, but another man knocked me over/made me stumble as he passed. My H started yelling at the other guy, this is out of character for him, and they almost came face to face. I knew my H had control for it to not get physical but I did feel protected in that very girly way.

Yes, this could have had a profound affect on her. I'm thinking it's the slightly twisted fairy-tale scenario where she's the damsel in distress and you're fighting for her. She's probably also noticing what she is going to be missing with you. Women tend to respond to those masculine traits. However, for your own sanity and self-respect, I'd tell her to stop texting you those kind of messages. Don't give the OM the benefit of needing to take out a restraining order. Keep working out, start thinking of a healthier life without her being the focus.


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## YinPrincess

It's a very 'protective'/'possessive' thing to do, and I think most women would be flattered at least. Speaking for myself, I like a man that acts like a man, but doesn't lose control. How very "Caveman". I like.


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## WhereAmI

One night I thought I heard someone talking directly outside my bedroom window. I crawled over the bed to see if I was hearing things right. This woke my H up, but he assumed I was positioning myself for a love session and smacked my ass. LOL I quietly barked at him to keep his hands off of me and told him someone was outside. We turned the lights on and the guy ran. H told me to turn them off and that he was going outide to make sure he was gone. I thought that it was a stupid idea, but did as he said. I had no idea where my H went and the guy was BACK! I was getting scared and all of the sudden I hear the man yell, "HOLY ****!" My H asked him what the he'll he was doing and the guy was just stuttering and apologizing, obviously scared. It turned out his car broke down nearby and his phone was dead. He was trying to charge his phone at our outside outlet. In the end he offered my H a joint (denied) and my H let him use his phone to call for help.

Now, I absolutely hate violence. When my H went outside I was rolling my eyes and thinking he was a dumbass for putting himself in a situation where he could get hurt. However, when all was said and done I felt intense love and attraction. It was a very primal feeling. The sex that night was insane! 

I think women are wired to want a man who will protect her. I needed protection in my situation. Although your situation was different, it was very much the same. You showed her that you aren't scared to confront a threat to the relationship. In addition, the OM wasn't able to defend himself in a "manly" way. Although it might not be a conscious thought, she now has doubts about his ability to protect her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Atholk

Basically when the other man walked away from you, he displayed social submission to you in an "animal" sense. That makes you the dominant male and thus your wife's returning interest in you.


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## magnoliagal

Of course women like to be protected by yes a dominate man. I'm married to a well trained police officer. It's a total turn on to watch him in action.


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## SimplyAmorous

Oh yeah, I'd like it, eat that up, and her mentioning you have lost weight, caught her looking at you .... it ain't over till it's over.


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## anonymiss

I wonder does it work the same way for women fighting for their man?


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## NotaGoodSlave

SimplyAmorous said:


> Oh yeah, I'd like it, eat that up, and her mentioning you have lost weight, caught her looking at you .... it ain't over till it's over.


Actually it should be over and if he (the husband) is smart he will run away from this mess. Women like his wife feed off of relationship drama. The drama becomes a "way of life" for her, at his expense.

Regardless of who "wins" the fight between the males both are being played as fools by her. 

A superior male mind will assess the situation, acknowlege a mistake, and extract himself from the situation.........and learn from his mistake (i.e marriage is not wise choice for men) then move on with his life.

He will understand his cheating wife is not worth anything, let alone a fight.


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## elph

actually, my wife is a bit on the immature side, and apparently a bit of a narcissist (so my therapist says) but she hates drama. and shes very passive. she has always tended to shy away from most peoples crap, and then only time she doesnt is when a friend is in need.

and i do think shes worth it. i think shes worth every bit of energy ive put in for the last 17 years. and i think its worth my son having a mother around and a whole family.


but were getting away from the question. 

how does this affect women? my wife seemed affected, and its pretty out of character for her. i wanted other womens opinons, esp. if theyre in the same situation.


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## elph

Atholk said:


> Basically when the other man walked away from you, he displayed social submission to you in an "animal" sense. That makes you the dominant male and thus your wife's returning interest in you.


btw athol, i picked up your book for my kindle (thank good you had it in that format) read it twice while on a trip to bangkok a few weeks ago. really good book and has actually made me feel better about my self, whether we solve this mess, or i go single...somebodys gonna gt lucky...


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## Undertheradar

NotaGoodSlave said:


> Actually it should be over and if he (the husband) is smart he will run away from this mess. Women like his wife feed off of relationship drama. The drama becomes a "way of life" for her, at his expense.
> 
> Regardless of who "wins" the fight between the males both are being played as fools by her.
> 
> A superior male mind will assess the situation, acknowlege a mistake, and extract himself from the situation.........and learn from his mistake (i.e marriage is not wise choice for men) then move on with his life.
> 
> He will understand his cheating wife is not worth anything, let alone a fight.


I was wondering when someone would realize that his wife CHEATED on him, and was actually moving out.
SO, he decided to vent his anger towards ONE of the culprits, and she gets her panties wet. Is that a signal that he rescued his damsel in distress?
Oh please, she sounds like a player, and she's playing you.

Go take that new body of yours, and let some other woman have fun with it.
Your wife will hurt you... again.

Move on. She made it easy for you.


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## elph

I understand she cheated on me. And she gets my anger but in a whole nother way. She's far from innocent, but being as she's my wife and we've been together for 17 years it's not going to be handled in an all out yell and scream fest. 
And considering I've known her since high school, I know for a fact she's not a player. Not every woman who cheats is a complete and utter *****. I'm not saying she's perfect, but she's a good person who's made some real bad decisions. 

I asked a simple question on how an act like this affects a woman. 

I know people call me crazy, but I want to save my marriage. I've een in plan A and will be going to plan B when she moves out. I've done a fairly good job at sticking to my 180. And all of that is showing results. Amd that is doubt. My wife is reluctantly moving out, she's not sure what she wants and I've been told by her friend that he's becoming increasingly clingy and possessive. 

She's gonna find out that the grass isn't greener, and that he manipulated her into their relationship. ( it started with his marital problems, coffee breaks into lunch breaks, and then the whole if I was your boyfriend demonization )

Like I said, my son deserves his mommy amd a complete family. And I think if she's willing to do the work, we can fix this. And. no I don't think shed cheat again if we reconcile. If she did, then I didn't learn anything as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymiss

I can't relate to your story, but it's nice to hear you say that she's a good person who just made some bad decisions. Don't we all? I'm feeling that same thing right now, and even though it's hard to stomach, there are two sides to every story. Not everyone has an A for the fun of it. 



elph said:


> I understand she cheated on me. And she gets my anger but in a whole nother way. She's far from innocent, but being as she's my wife and we've been together for 17 years it's not going to be handled in an all out yell and scream fest.
> And considering I've known her since high school, I know for a fact she's not a player. Not every woman who cheats is a complete and utter *****. *I'm not saying she's perfect, but she's a good person who's made some real bad decisions.
> *
> I asked a simple question on how an act like this affects a woman.
> 
> I know people call me crazy, but I want to save my marriage. I've een in plan A and will be going to plan B when she moves out. I've done a fairly good job at sticking to my 180. And all of that is showing results. Amd that is doubt. My wife is reluctantly moving out, she's not sure what she wants and I've been told by her friend that he's becoming increasingly clingy and possessive.
> 
> She's gonna find out that the grass isn't greener, and that he manipulated her into their relationship. ( it started with his marital problems, coffee breaks into lunch breaks, and then the whole if I was your boyfriend demonization )
> 
> Like I said, my son deserves his mommy amd a complete family. And I think if she's willing to do the work, we can fix this. And. no I don't think shed cheat again if we reconcile. If she did, then I didn't learn anything as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo

Not sure I understand what it is you are looking for in terms of feedback. You will likely see my statement as negative ... but I assure you, it is nonetheless true.

Yes, she responded positively to your aggressively standing up to TOM. Like Athol said, it's primal.

And yes, I think it's great that you are working out and working on yourself.

Nothing wrong with wanting to reconcile either. But keep perspective. Despite you going all alpha on her lover and piquing her interest with that event ... who did she have sex with that night? Not you.

I have been through this. I don't think my ex is a bad person either. But ... she can't get her sh!t together. Having gone through my own 'man up' adventures, I can tell you without question that there have been times where my ex has been very attracted to me. All that has ever resulted on her part is indecision. Not commitment. Not devotion. Not love.

I can understand wanting to look for carrots that your disloyal spouse still 'wants' you. And without a doubt, at the times she is feeling most uncomfortable, insecure, lonely, or afraid you will get them. Don't confuse her indecision for desire. Especially when at the end of the day she is spreading her legs for someone else. That is intended to send a harsh message ... not a bitter one.
Pay attention to what she is doing, not what she says or how you think she feels. Reread your last sentence; "... if she is willing to do the work ...". That is what you need to pay attention to and measure.

You know what I determined I find very unattractive? Indecision.


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## elph

I can tell you that night she has sex with no one. She still hasn't moved out. She was just there cleaning up and working on the kitchen. That night she came home as usual. 

I totally get what you say about indecision. Right now that's what I'm going for. Part of the plan A. 

And you are spot on too. At the end of the day, actions speak louder than words. If/when she comes back. That's when she'll have to prove herself and do the work. Without it there will be no reconcilliation. The remorse will also have to be there. And part of me wants to hear a denouncement of the OM. 

My therapist whos seen thousands of cases of infidelity told me given their details ( coworkers and such) that they'll eventually hate each other. Whichll make it easier fir her to go NC. And I've already seen them fight ( when I could track their texts). He's so manipulative and passive aggressive. He uses the whoa is me schtick or the change the subject move when they fight. But they never solve anything. He just tides her over or puts in just enough work. 

If she's undecided right now, then that'll carry over when she's truly moved out. 
I think I've done enough to show her that I've made the changes not only for our marriage ( because I really had become a different person and not in a good way) but also for myself and my son. 
As well I've reminder her of the man she fell in love with and her best friend. Things I hope shell miss. Amd I hope helps get her out of the fog. Because she hasn't been herself lately. 


And if she doesn't, well then I'll cross that bridge when we come to it. But I know my wife, generally. I think she's still in there somewhere.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo

Sincerely hope that it works out for the both of you.


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## elph

Thank you deejo. Im hoping to be able to post a story of reconcilliation one day to give people hope. But also to learn from some of my mistakes. 

I have to say though. Since that manning up incident, shes been a bit different. I wore the shirt I did that day in Disneyland. She said she didn't like it because it reminded her of that day. I asked good or bad and she said bad, because of the cops and neighbor. Because she already really doesnt like the apartment. And it's become a trigger for her. 

And I think that's awesome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

I think it's sexy when men get like that (once in a while over things that truly matter).

My husband is pretty calm and mellow most times, so when I see his anger (even if towards me) it's a turn on.


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## elph

Thank you that girl for getting u's back on track
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ruth-Anne1957

I know it is hard when you have been through what you are going through know. I have been there. I still think about it even after 28 years. However, here is what I have learned and will share with you. 

Why do you think you and your wife seperated, bar the obvious infidelity? Why, if she obviously still has feelings for you, did she bring another person into your relationship. BE HONEST. Did you two argue, and did she try to tell you in other ways she was not happy about your marriage, and her roll in her marriage? REALLY THINK ABOUT THIS!!!

I have argued, turned blue in the face, been lied too, and hurt, so many time, but I kept CHOOSING, on my own to go back. I know the BASICS that attracted me to my second husband, and what made me love him are still there. HE still says he loves me. I know when I look at him, I still love him. FOR WHO HE IS AS A PERSON, not for the things he has done to me. A lot of the outcomes in our problems are brought on by CHOICES, his and MINE. HIS to allow third parties to EFFECT our lives, mine by accepting the defeat of being the lowest priority in HIS LIFE. 

I FEEL, woman go through a lot more then men. Menatlly, physically, and emotionally. YES, you may say I am bias, but give me a chance here. WOMEN, even as young girls go through mental and physical changes. They go from being some boys, or mans BEST FRIEND, to a sexual object. If a woman at some point in her life is sexually abused or harassed, it leaves a distaste in her mental stability at being a woman. It takes away the very core of her. UNFORTUNATE, for any man she falls in love with. Also, a woman is the one, because she is the reproductive one of the species that's bodies chemically, and mentally become imbalanced. EVERY MONTH, there are few and far between men who can comprehend, and support their women into getting the right treatment. MOST times it is sarcasam, 'women's plumbing', 'women's problems', 'that time of month', 'oh, hormones, she is pregnant'. So A LOT of women say NOTHING. They want to go back to feeling valued, some know the only way they can obtain value is by using their enhancements, their sexuality. A flirt, a smile, a 6'2" man giving back attention. Giving her what she needs to not feel question in her stability as a human being, some value. Balancing her equality.:scratchhead: 

Social Psychology, phew, people, men and women don't want or have time in their day to day survival. To take a look at the other person in their life that contributes the most to them. MAN OR WOMAN. MAN OR WOMAN will get locked up in their every day lives, in their every day jobs, in their every day hobbies. Seeking self fulfillment before they take a look at what is right there for them. They would rather turn away and bury themself into something that is sureal than look at reality and WORK THINGS OUT. Then it becomes to late. 

I believe, because I was three when my parent's divorced, and was the youngest. I watched my olders siblings, experienced their anger, frustration, and my mother's anger, and pain. Never knowing what it was really every about, until my older years. IT NEVER GOT BETTER, for my biological father, for my mother, for my siblings, NEVER!!!. It would have been far better to work past it all, for my Father to have grown up, which he has since told me he realizes, and developed mutual respect. 

STOP THINKING ABOUT WHY! That is my advice to you, STOP BEING HURT, you are only carrying something you can not control. Talk to your wife, about other things, be friends again, start slow and APART... She may continue on with the other man. This may hurt you, but, she is obviously still attracted to you. LOOK AFTER YOURSELF FIRST, if you are not happy, no one around you will be including someone you want to share your life with. Save up, Take a trip with you wife somewhere, you BOTH want to go. WHILE YOU ARE STILL SEPERATED.

REMIND HER, she has been your best friend in companion for all those years. YOU KNOW HER better than someone, it is better to work with someone you know than a stranger on who you want to be. OFFER to help her find out WHO SHE WANTS TO BE. WITHOUT THE PHYSICAL demanding. YOUR hand, your friendship, your love. Keep working out and looking after yourself, do not compremise your own values, but work out your values with her. I know a lot of mumbo jumbo, but take it from me. I had a good man once, he turned into someone I couldn't even look at without being sick. He left me for someone else when I needed him the most. After I forgave him many times for many things. He had had a hard life in someways, but so did I, complicated by hard preganancies, and surgeries. I had nothing more to emotionally or physically give back to him when he asked to come back. I wish I had, for my son's sake. Now 28 years later, I have a good man, marriage. But I see my ex alone, my one son talkes to him at 32, the other at 30 has nothing to do with him. IN COMPARISON the things I went through with my second husband to have the good marriage we have now, I wish I could have done with my first. I still look at my to handsome sons and see their father's face. Which will always keep me a prisoner of the love and pain I shared with him. 

Work it out, or let it go, if you try like I suggested above, at least it will allow you to not carry the anger and work it out to continue on again, and teach your wife NEVER to bring another person into a relationship. SHE needs to learn to be happy with herself first if she is having problems and needs now. It is like alcohol or drugs, you wake up the next morning once the glow has worn off with all the same feelings and problems, only it is worse because you are older and things seem more futile. 

Good luck with that. 

Ruth-Anne


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## elph

Ruth,

i can tell you exactly everything about the whos and whys of my wifes affair.

the why is easy. ive analyzed our relationship from the past 3 1/2 years. before that all was good. i use that as a marker because thats when our son was born. but the reality is in her mind things got worse sometime after last april, and as far back as sept. before that. thats when we bought our new house. weve pretty much agreed that it has played a big deal in helping to create the vulnerabilities that help create the affair. 

basically it goes like this. 
there are a few things about me that affected it. i was neglectful, critical of her, and had a tendency to not listen, and when we argued i would cut her off, and i had a lecturing style that she never liked.

as well she said that i was becoming a different person. more serious, because of all the new stresses in life. and she was right.

all that would be my part, or what she would say. and all have those have changed. 

in our relationship, our schedules had a hand in it. 
she had to go to bed early for work. and she worked different days than me. (her and the OM worked together 3-5 days a week)
we never finished fights. wed start, then sweep them under the rug and never going back to the problem to solve it when things had calmed down.

the house played in to our schedule problem. i was always working on something instead of spending more time with the family. oddly enough while i was doing the house work or something, it was so she could relax a little and focus on our son when she came home so she wouldnt have to worry about everything else. 

and no she wasnt happy. though were beginning to believe she may not exactly know what does or doenst make her happy. but we did find out shes clinically depressed.

these are all things that can or have changed.

thats the simple version of our issues. 

AS for the affair.

the OM had his own marital problems. back in sept.'10 they started going to coffee breaks which turned in to lunch breaks. he shared more and more of his problems. she then started discussing our problems. he in turn started to weigh in. telling her the old, "if i was your husband" line. or he would try and make me look bad. at some point in Dec/Jan he filed for divorce. the the affair really kicked in. from what ive been able to gather, he pursued my wife, which is why he got divorced (he as much said so in a text). he told her everything she wanted to hear. to the point where them spending alot of time together eventually led to her falling in love and starting an EA with him. so he basically manipulated her into the affair. 
Yes i know shes making decisions of her own free will. but the reality is my wife is a little weak minded. and he used her need for atention and affection to his advantage. he may have feelings for her, but he still went after a married woman.

and so here we are now.

ive dont alot of what youve said. 
the plan A of reminding her why she fell in love with me. showing her that ive made changes. been her friend, all why setting boundaries and setting up what could happen if she decides to work on the marriage. 

at the same time ive been working on myself, to move forward one way or another. 

were both in individual therapy. and her therapist as much as told me shes trying to make my wife strong enough for herself so that she can leave the affair when the time comes. and it will come. 

but while hes still in her life, IN ANY CAPACITY, i will not be. she needs to figure it out. 

there of course is alot more to it. and how ill deal with all the BullCrap that has gone on. but i believe there is a method and a way to get over all of this with work. 

but first things first.

i have alot of anger that im putting on the back burner so that it can be handled the right way, in the most productive way possible. 
i realize at some point, if we reconcille, that the affair will go from being her problem (when shes doing all the "heavy lifting") to becoming our problem.
i know we work in reconciliation and trust first, then the marriage.


and ultimately i know that we will get back together. and then the real test will begin. i could probably tell you when and how. but ill save that for later.


as for the original idea for this thread. 
i believe that me manning up stirred in her not just something i way of her libido, but something more primal. more alpha. that showed im willing to step up and do what it takes.
ironically enough, when i asked her what she sees in the OM. 2 of the things she says is confidance and leadership (tho she used a different word) but the only reason hes able to do that is in the controlled environment of work. taken out of there, he s a big *****.

such as it is.


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## elph

i also should have mentioned that shes still infatuated with the OM. though there are signs of that beginning to wane. her friend/coworker has said that hes becoming more possesive/controlling/clingy. and really i think that there have their own issues. 

we just came back from a family trip to disneyland with her in laws. i told her i dont want to see her texting the OM or something to that general effect. she told me its none of his business that im there.

so shes hiding that info from him. that doesnt sound like something good for the relationship...

i think she eventually get through the fog, and the seperation will be part of what does it...


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## Riverside MFT

elph said:


> as for the original idea for this thread.
> i believe that me manning up stirred in her not just something i way of her libido, but something more primal. more alpha. that showed im willing to step up and do what it takes.


It seems like you manning up to this guy was also beneficial to you in knowing that you could be confident and take charge in any situation.

BTW, I've loved all the posts from the women here. Protecting one's wife is one of her basic needs, and being able to protect one's wife is one of his basic needs. On the man's side he is showing dedication and commitment. On the woman's side, she is showing trust. Dedication, commitment, and trust are all essential to the relationship.

Elph, I feel there is no fault in believing this will work. Your Plan A is to make the marriage work, but you also have a plan B just in case. Keep it up.


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## the guy

I think it does effect women when a man stands up to situations that can involve a fight....a confrontation if you will. I see it as a win win. If you end up on top like you did, then you are the alpha male in the pack, if you end up on the bottom (which I have many of times) then you get compassion and your wound cared for.

So no matter what, IMO it will effect women no matter the out come of the confrontation. Face it, we men are expected to protect the things we care about. Standing up for something just makes sense to me, and by doing so it effect our women in a good way.

Thats my $0.02


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## Atholk

elph said:


> btw athol, i picked up your book for my kindle (thank good you had it in that format) read it twice while on a trip to bangkok a few weeks ago. really good book and has actually made me feel better about my self, whether we solve this mess, or i go single...somebodys gonna gt lucky...


Thanks! Kindle is earning me more than print.


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## ItHappenedToMe

elph, here's one response from within the fog:

My H insisted my friend (neither of us realizing it was an OM) call him. After much pleading with TOM to get H to drop his constant reminder requests, he called. 

H went off on him. Yelled at him for nearly an hour and a half. Apparently there was some cursing involved. Gave him the framework by which he could be in contact with me (through him).

Afterward, TOM called me, not H. He was blown out - said he'd never been talked to like that, not even by his father, a grisled Hoover-era gman. He went over the conversation with me, and was hurt (that he is emotional was one of the attractions).

You can predict my response - I was p-o'd at H for treating him like that (even though I now know it was completely correct) and spent enourmous time verbally comforting TOM. 

That was almost a year ago. It became almost a you-owe-me situation because TOM had to experience H's wrath.

Twisted, I know. Manipulative on his part, yes. And not what you want to hear. 

At this point, your wife has moved out, which you said you knew would happen (even for the lamest reasons like the lease and bought items). You've (hopefully) stuck to your plans and moved to Plan B. 

Regardless of her response to your puffing up, and the changes in your physique, he's got his claws in her heart, and they haven't ended it yet. There's a glimmer of hope, because she's noticed. Until something major happens to burn off the fog, it's gonna be a while. Patience is a virtue, I hear.

She'll be hurt when it happens, and may not be willing to face the other pain of R. And the fog will roll back in at times, making for more pain. (I had a fog attack last night. Made me sick all over again.)

As 8years says, there are no aethiest in the foxholes.

Consider Jonah, who ran from what he was supposed to do. The following was given to me by a man of faith:


> Plead with the Lord that He would do whatever is necessary and best for the soul of your wife in order to get her attention so that she stop fleeing from the Lord and casts herself upon the mercy of God in Christ Jesus. In your prayer for her, also examine your own life for sins and inconsistencies so that you are not a stumbling block to her.


Scarlet


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## Conrad

Atholk said:


> Basically when the other man walked away from you, he displayed social submission to you in an "animal" sense. That makes you the dominant male and thus your wife's returning interest in you.


Could not have said it better.

If you want her back, stick with the program.


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## alphaomega

Awesome! Puffy is good!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faaizmuhammad

I sense that you people should talk out differences before these differences grow bigger than love and intimacy feelings you both have.
Manning up definitely matters to women as need of protection is satisfied through it.

Love does Finds Its Way Through The Worst Times as Well


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## turnera

Update?


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## elph

i had written an update on my iphone and it looks like it didnt post so ill do a quick summary.

she moved out last weekend..i helped because i didnt want the OM to come anywhere near my house.
at the end when we returned the van and i gassed it up she mentioned on the way to grub that shenoticed my arms when i was lifting and pumping gas...they that big but okay on definition. but she leaned over to holdon to one as she was talking.


that said since she moved out she been trying to text every day...

during the move you wouldnt be able to tell anyting was wrong...


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## turnera

She wanys what she can't have.


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## elph

But I think there's a heavy dose of cake eating too. 

She just needs ti figure her stuff out. Till then I'm going with my own plan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Just in case...start thinking about your list of 'requirements' - those things you'd have to have from her before you'd ever consider dating her again (total transparency, No Contact letter, therapy, polygraph maybe, etc.). Get it ready in your mind so that, if she does up and surprise you, you have the list ready and can just hand it to her and walk away.


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## ItHappenedToMe

Having a list saved my sanity. When in doubt I covered all I wanted, I'd sneak a peak at the list and make sure it was.

Granted...I was in a restaurant with tablecloths and my purse & list were on the bench beside me!

It wasn't an easy conversation, but necessary and everything got covered. 

Definitely a list. Maybe use initials on your fingertips?


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## elph

i have a list already, and included most of it in a letter to her when she moved out. 

1 NC, obviously.
2 Transperency to build trust
3 openess and honesty, to build trust and help repair that means all questions answered with no i dont knows or i dont remember.


those are the basics.

but there are a few more she doesnt know about.

1 i have to feel special and unique to her again. dont use the words or terms you did with them, i have 4+ months worth of texts so i know.

2 if i feel for one second that im a back up, second place or choice or a rebound from the affair, im done. 

3. i feel the right to know every male you know. its not control, its being invested inthe relationship. and she has to set boundaries with the people she knows. (actually i think i told her this one).

i think there are a few others that i cant think of right now...but thats the basics


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## elph

i want to add something about this whole manning up thing..

i was talking to a friend of mine, and we got onthe topic...

this may sound stupid, but logical, from an ego point of view...

in my mind, it would sting a little less if she was at least cheating on me witha brad pitt or johnny depp or what ever...

instead, the dudes a chud. hes skinny, bald (as in losing his hair, not michael jordan) and really inferior in every way except height. ive seen the texts theyve sent back and forth, where she calls him handsome, or sexy.


she gave me a compliment a few weeks ago, and instead of enjoying it, i was just meh. i told her i appreciated it, but it just didnt carry weight.

so we figured its because her taste in affair partner kinda lowered the comparison chart.
that is to say if she wouldve at least cheated on me with a 7 instead of a 4 i could feel a little better. and im not making this up. ive shown his picture to a bunch of other women who werent impressed. 

its basically like if Armani or whoever told you you were wearing a nice suit...that would carry some weight to it, but if a 10 year old boy says it was nice, it might not mean as much..

i feel that shes shown such a lack in taste all around, that its hard for her to compliment me when i know what her basis of comparison is..and it sucks..


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## turnera

People almost always affair down. IMO, it's something to do with the ego thing - you know they won't cheat on YOU because you're higher on the scale than them. But it's extremely common to affair down.

I also think that people like that develop a better skill at words - they have to, to get what they want in life, you know? Plus, they're not likely to be conceited or self-centered, so they focus entirely on the cheating partner, and make them feel special, which they aren't getting (or overlook) at home. 

Especially for women, they seek out affair partners usually for the emotional feel-good, not the bedroom feel-good.


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## elph

yeah that seems to be a common thing. and sure enough shes told me it isnt a looks thing, and before this she never would have spotted him in a crowded room. 

but it still has an effect. 

conversley, if i start to date again, i wonder how it would feel if i dated a model or something?
or better yet someone like my wife in terms of body. she short and curvy, and has always had esteem issues with how she looks, despite what ive always said. if i dated sombody of the same body type, it would be obvious that i was telling the truth...



then again a model would b nice too...


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## ItHappenedToMe

ELPH! STOP BEING SO SHALLOW!

DUDE, looks are the NOT the #1 thing. Hell, look at the Governator & his maid.

It does not matter what ANYBODY else thinks of your wife's AP. What matters is what SHE thinks about him. There is some reason she turned to him, there is something she is getting from him, because he's still around. 

And NO, if you date someone IDENTICAL to your wife in every way, it will MEAN NOTHING about you telling the truth that you liked her looks BECAUSE SHE HAS ESTEEM ISSUES. You can't fix those, Elph, only she can.

The only thing dating someone identical to your wife will do is make everyone else wonder...why didn't you stick with your wife? I've seen this...from the back you couldn't tell if the new girl was the new GF or the old GF. Height, hair, weight, shape...identical!

C'mon man, you are deeper than this!


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## turnera

Did you ever read His Needs Her Needs? You should.


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## elph

actually did read HNHN, alot of common sense, but an eye opener as well.

if we get to reconcille, im hoping to read it again with her...it might not fix everything, but it couldnt hurt.

and yeah, ithappened, im being a bit shallow.

shes even told me that im better than him in so many ways, includidng looks. but its hard to believe her.
i know exactally what shes getting from him in terms of her EN's. as well i know hes manipulation her with how he handles their relationship...the reality is my wife is just a weak person. 


that said, sometimes i think its okay to be shallow, becaues in this case, meeting or going after some of her base instincts would be a different approach, and showing her that i can be the Alpha can only work in my favor..

but i just dont think im showing, i think im becoming. after having to rebuild myself after this whole affair...


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## turnera

Remind me: Did you expose the affair?


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## elph

exposed on may 25th. her family already knew. contacted HR to her job (grocery) went into her store and told key people, who i knew would spread it around. also contacted OM mom (who was no good, she seems to actually condone her son being a total ****). also told OMW (or soon to be X) a few weeks before. shes actually become an ally, especially in terms of giving me info about him. she kinda uses me as support system/venting, but thats okay. she doesnt like my wife, but is rooting for us to getback together none the less.


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## turnera

Best friends? Pastor? Cousins?


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## elph

he has no friends, just his family..and i went straight to the top. its a VERY matriarchal family. get to the mom, and it all goes from there. the OMX also got it around the family i couldnt. as well as other stores within the chain.

no religeous precensces to my knowledge. i hit everybody i could..

and ive seen some effects. nobody liked him to begin with, but my wife has taken a major hit to her reputation. she may even be taking a leave of absence to sort things out...


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## turnera

Well, then, you can always try to wait it out, wait for the affair to implode. And in the meantime, work on making yourself the best possible mate -for her or someone else.


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## elph

Totally my plan. 

At this point my wife has entered a confused state. She doesn't know what she wants anymore. I'm growing more confident and independent. He's becoming more clingy and smothering. 

At some point it will implode. The question will be. Where am I when that happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

so i got a new one for ya..

last week i was over at her place with my son. 

i left around 10pm. but between 930 and 10, he tried texting her about 7 times and calling her 6. her phone was in her bedroom on vibrate. 

the last text he sent was saying he was coming over. 
he showed up unnanounced and with my son spending thenight. 

my wife calmed him down (she said to me "i saw a look in his eyes ive never seen before") and he eventually left. 

but i learned to day that he said to her that he thought i was there.. and if he saw me there he was going to throw me out and ruff me up..seriously. 

despite the fact im there with my son. 
like im doing something bad, and hes her knight in shinning armor.

he, after being put in his place with the original confrontation, now wants to talk **** about me to her like hes some sort of tough guy. but when push came to shove, he cowered.


so my question is this ladies.

how would you feel about this?

she has no reason to hate me and i was there trying to make it comfortable for my son. and in fact, she opened up a great deal of how she feels about their "relationship" up to and including taking a leave of absence to help get some space (which she asked the OM for) and sort her stuff out.

does the macho bravado after the fact endear him self, or just make him sound needy or desperate?


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## turnera

I would be PISSED AS HELL that my husband didn't come to my defense.


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## ItHappenedToMe

elph...yes, he's trying to play hero to her. She left you, you are still around, he's 'protecting' her. That you are there for your son doesn't make any difference. If you got physical with him, I'm sure he's said you might get physical with her. Enter 'hero.'

Yes, it is the H who should play hero, not OM.

And passive DS hasn't gotten rid of him; hasn't take then space she keeps talking about and he's still in the picture. You aren't, unless it involves your son. 

Until she gets her act together, you're in the dark. Our opinions are like our hiners...we all have one.

Sorry bro.


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## heartsbeating

elph said:


> does the macho bravado after the fact endear him self, or just make him sound needy or desperate?


I think it makes him sound needy. He's worried about her going back to you. However she might also be (perhaps without even realizing it) loving the fact that two men are beating their chests over her. 

My respect would be with the man that didn't need to prove himself over the other. To feel _protected_ is wonderful. To also have a man who displays confidence is extremely attractive.... hmm, think Star Wars and Han Solo. Maybe scale back the arrogance slightly but there's a difference between Han Solo and Luke Skywalker (as he is in the beginning), who while being brave and likeable, also initially presents as a little bit whiny too. Make sense?


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## turnera

That said, the woman with the self esteem issues is going to go for the guy who feeds her sick need, not the one with integrity. 

Do you really WANT that woman?


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## heartsbeating

turnera said:


> That said, the woman with the self esteem issues is going to go for the guy who feeds her sick need, not the one with integrity.
> 
> Do you really WANT that woman?


:iagree: with you.


Despite the fact that Skywalker was the one with integrity, as he was also her brother, but I'm starting to think too much about Star Wars right now. May the force be with you, elph.


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## elph

And the OM is pulling her to the dark side with all his emperor like manipulations. 

And yes, my wife defiantly has self esteem issues. For me she has so many good qualities ( usually) that it overshadows those and we deal with it. I think the new baby and house tho drew focus away and created the enviorment. 

It's been noted by my wife ( to her friend to me) that he's becoming more and more clingy. That if she goes on leave to take her space that he probably won't give it to her or let up because he fears not being in the forefront of her mind and me being there for her. He die st realize we have a child together thus I'm never going to be out of the picture. But he WANs me out soooooo bad. 

But I figure he's trying to put me down at every turn in anticipation of her leave. As well I've been told that he said he'd give her space so long as he's still in her life. I think he's trying to make up for coming over that one night but I don't think that nice guy act can last and his insecurities will take over 

What say you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Did you ever read up on Plan A/Plan B from marriagebuilders.com? It might be worth a read at this point. (stay away from their forums, though)


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## Deejo

My .02?

You are WAY too close to all of the drama in this thing. It isn't good for you, and it certainly isn't good for your chances of reconciliation.

You are allowing your wife to treat you like a 'friend' and confidant. That is NOT what you should be shooting for.

Step away and let it implode rather than trying to subtly prove to your cheating spouse that you are a better choice than the other man.

Nothing good can happen between you and your wife while she is keeping company with another man. End of story.


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## elph

turnera said:


> Did you ever read up on Plan A/Plan B from marriagebuilders.com? It might be worth a read at this point. (stay away from their forums, though)


i have and was in plan A and moved into plan B, but that broke when i found out that he came to her house at 1030 at night with my son there and was all angry and everything.
the OM, i believe, is starting his way down a path that will end up in physical abuse. she even said that shed never seen him act like he did before. and hes a coward that would have no problem losing his stuff and going after her. esp. if shes trying to get space, hell get desperate and all...so i had to break it to keep an eye on the situation to keep them safe...

and i hear you about the forums...there are some really knowledgeable people on there, but its an absolute mindset.
i dont have an IM, its just impossible. so i get thrown into the fire because of that. there is no room for adaptation. but in the book, there is no advice for how to deal with a plan B with kids. or when the WS may be threatened with abuse.

like i said, nice. but flawed. if you cant fulfill to the letter, then there is no hope. i think you should try to the best of ones ability..


and Deejo, your right. absolutely.

im to close. im trying to detach, but the aforementiond possibility of abuse has me worried. ive been working the Plan A which is to show her ive changed and try to meet her needs...

and as mentioned earlier, i tried to step away...

its getting rough, but i also see the OM starting to fail and worry big time...but im working on detaching...


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## turnera

Oh, that's right, I remember.

Why can't you find an IM? It doesn't have to be someone in your city, since all communication can be handled through emails/texts, which you can have forwarded to your IM. And you can set up cozi.com for all communication about your son's activities, so you never have to speak to her.

As for OM, what is the legal/police view of what's going on regarding him being around your son?


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## turnera

Right now, the best thing seems to me to be to remove yourself from her vicinity, closely monitor OM's access to your son (hire someone to follow them if you have to, to get proof), and let her have to get ALL her needs met by this jerk, so the affair will implode sooner.


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## elph

the issue was that the one or two people i had couldnt fulfill the obligation of an IM and her mom couldnt as well because they are at odds because of her choice to keep this going. 

im trying to find a way to monitor the situation. ive been trying to get her to make tha appt with the mediator (per the mediators request) so that we can get the child thing in writing.

and then i just need to detach as best as possible. the only info i can get on things are from a few people she works with who keeps tabson them there..

and your right about me putting it all on him one way or another...their relationship is already starting to cruble..i think their just holding on out of spite, pride or ego. def. ego on his part...


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## turnera

Don't you have a friend who will follow her around for a few bucks when she has your son?

Being an IM isn't that big of a deal; it's just someone who reads her occasional email. You're making this out to be harder than it needs to be.


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## elph

there is this whole problem that im having with my "friends" which has kinda been put on the back burner during this whole affair thing.(id rather not go into it)

she doesnt email. heck i kept the computer and shes not even close to a techie. she uses a messaging phone, but couldnt be bothered with email and since she works in grocery, its not nescasarry. we actually share a home email acct. (i have a work on and a personal one of my own, that while she knows about, doenst know passwords.)

i was going to use her mom, but like i said, theyre kinda at odds and nobodies agreeing on anything right now...


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## elph

got a slight new one for ya..
i was over dropping my son off. and he wouldnt let me leave, which is fine esp. after last week.

so im sitting there, and my wife gets this worried look on her face momentarily, outta no where. 

i ask her whats wrong, and initially she says nothing. but makes her way over to the window to look out.

i ask her whats wrong again, and she said she thought she heard his miata (because she knows what it sounds like. interesting aside, last week before work, he showed up on thurs morn at 350a, right before she goes to work, and she knew then because of the sound of his car)

now im not worried, but she is. i found out from our mutual friend that he was telling my wife how hed throw me out if he saw me there (hence the hero post from earlier)

fear of the other man or situation, i dont know any woman whod want to live like that.

opinions?


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## turnera

She gets a thrill out of the possibility of men fighting over her. Primeval but there just the same.

Plus, she's probably ashamed that he's being such a douche.


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## heartsbeating

Agreed. 

Although I also think she's wrapped up in the excitement, drama and ego of this situation. If I was you, I'd play a cool hand and be as least involved with the potential drama as possible.


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## ItHappenedToMe

Long shot...He "needs" her? Reverse the hero position...that's why she's not breaking it off? It feeds her low self esteem to be "needed?" 

Just a thought.


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## elph

ItHappenedToMe said:


> Long shot...He "needs" her? Reverse the hero position...that's why she's not breaking it off? It feeds her low self esteem to be "needed?"
> 
> Just a thought.


i wouldnt doubt that.
hes got no friends, only his family (this coming from his ex)
he pulls the pity me routine alot. and hes become extremely clingy. i mena, hes put it all on the line. divorcing his wife to be with her.hes got nothing else.

she told me when she informed me of a few other things, two weeks ago. that he told her "shes the only one" that "hed never cheat on her" and hes a "relationship guy"

yet for all the talk of my wife using her leave to get space, it seems as if theyre growing closer right now.

i know i need to detach, but im also worried for her safety.

i know theres got to be a middle ground. esp with my son...


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## turnera

That's where I'd be a pest at the local police station, protective service, and lawyer's office - where my son was concerned.


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