# Millennials say no to marriage



## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Millennials say no to marriage - Jul. 20, 2014

I guess I'm a Millennial (barely) and these statistics line up with what I see around me. "Smart" people are getting married later when they are ready and the institution itself is generally fading (though slowly).

Do you agree?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I agree entirely.

Early marriage is Russian roulette, marriage in general is an ancient holdover from a time and culture nothing like ours.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

ntamph said:


> Millennials say no to marriage - Jul. 20, 2014
> 
> I guess I'm a Millennial (barely) and these statistics line up with what I see around me. "Smart" people are getting married later when they are ready and the institution itself is generally fading (though slowly).
> 
> Do you agree?


I've read that too. Personally I think most people should wait until 25+ so I like the trend. Honestly though the problem isn't some contract that can be voided (marriage). It's people having kids they don't support. If that's going away then ye ha. I could care less if someone is married but I believe people walking around not being responsible for their offspring are $%^&*. So yes marriage should be for those ready for it. So should parenthood.


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

I don't care if people get married and I can see why they wait. Wish I would have.

I do care though about people supporting their children and maintaining a family unit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Waiting to get married until after 25 is smart. 

In past generations early marriage made more sense. People did not live as long. Less education was needed to make a living. Most young people just worked on the family farm or business. And the community put a lot of pressure on people to stay married.

Life today is very different.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Already told my mother I don't plan on marriage (just turned 30) and I don't really want kids. After 30 years of being married and 3 kids herself all she said was she couldn't blame me:rofl:


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I definitely agree that the marrying age has gone up and many are opting out. But people still get married. It will still always be around.

I personally totally agree with these millenials.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

I've seen this trend myself. Many more couples just living together and not having kids. Kinda smart as the number of couples that marry in their early 20s and have kids right away getting divorced is staggering. 

That said. My wife and I are in our mid 40s and on the verge of being empty nesters. One gone (pregnant in high school), and one in college now. Though this scares many couples we are loving it and can't wait to have the house all to ourselves. 

Want to know what scares me, some of our friends only slightly younger than us are still having kids. I do NOT want to be still raising kids at 60 years old.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

What they do have is committed long term sexual relationships without contracts. I'm not happy that this is what my son will be offered.
MN


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

"Will be offered?"

Like something on a menu?

If you son wants to, he can get married if he finds a woman willing to marry him.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Huh? 
looks like I used a forbidden word.
What I meant to say is that I would rather that he stay un-entangled than committed to a pseudo marriage. 
Not at all an item on a menu, more of a high interest credit offer. Something someone older and wiser would scoff at. something designed to take advantage of the uninformed.

I find it overall strange that the only people who want marriage are the ones it is denied to.
MN


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

That's not true. Plenty of people want to get married, even ones it isn't denied to.

Like Chris Rock says, "Gay people got a right to be as miserable as everybody else."


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## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

I got married at 27. It didnt help me. I would say wait till at least 35 for men.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I think some of those millenials are wiser than my generation!


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Too naive,
The trouble with men marrying at 35 is marrying a woman a decade younger than them. The answer is maturing experiences. time is not always maturing.
I can help him find maturing experiences. I can't influence his romantic choices much.
MN


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

Don't get married unless you're 101% ready. That can be at any age, but later going around resentful that you missed your wild age, makes waiting a wiser choice. 30's would be a mature age to start a family in my opinion.

Yes although times change, there will always be marriage. You can be committed just by living together, but let's admit it...marriage feels more like you truly belong together. "Wife" sounds better than "girlfriend". People take you more seriously. You know he or she is proud to show you to the world as theirs. 
There will also be those who feel this way, as much as those who focus on what would happen in case of divorce ( which indeed nowadays sux) Can't blame those who opt out.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

There is another, unfortunate side to this trend. The best age to have a healthy baby is probably 22-26. Once potential parents get past that age, the risks of various health issues start to rise, both for mother and child. I wonder about the long-term consequences.


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

jaharthur said:


> There is another, unfortunate side to this trend. The best age to have a healthy baby is probably 22-26. Once potential parents get past that age, the risks of various health issues start to rise, both for mother and child. I wonder about the long-term consequences.


My cousin had her son at 19. He is now a handsome, smart and healthy boy. I don't think healthy babies are conceived during a period of only 4 years. Oh, and he was also born out of wedlock. A love child. The father wasn't ready for the responsibility. He was 21 at the time. Hence my advice...wait on marriage and kids...don't rush.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Gender Selection, PGD Gender Selection and Microsort :: CHR



I think we are progressing to a society similar to Gattaca. If we can call it progress.


Gattaca - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


We know, at least Americans, as well as many Europeans are having less children and start much later in life.

If half of marriages still end in D, the odds are against Millennials from the start.

They can call it what they want, but it's still shacking up... My wife and I lived together/shacked up for 7 years before marriage. There was no need to get married. We were still committed without the legal document. I think our relationship was better when we were just shacking up.

As far as healthy babies... I believe we will remove healthy eggs and sperm and remove genitic predisposed conditions and even select gender. In general, we are living longer now. 60 is not all that old. It's important to provide for our kids and provide opportunities for them. At 25, we are still children ourselves. We don't know about love and life yet. We just think we do.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I am not someone who regrets getting married young & finding out 3 months later we were going to have our 1st son...I was on top of the world (so was my Husband)....he was so much of a Joy, we wanted to do it all over again...

I do find it sad that marriage is no longer something people care about.... 

Surprising.. not at all.. I see this as the fall out to sex being so free & plentiful while single.. but I also feel this creates more emotional baggage than some are willing to admit here.. .people carry those experiences into their marriages later on, trust is harder to find when we have a string of failed relationships under our belt..

There is always that foot "half out the door" if something better comes along .. and really.. this is just a given.

Only a strong belief in Marriage or it's sanctity is going to save this institution.. The truth is... men have very little incentive to marry these days...and I see women at fault for this for the most part....We give them little incentive... we ask where have all the good men gone...men are asking the same -on the other side of that coin... 



> *jaharthur said*: There is another, unfortunate side to this trend. The best age to have a healthy baby is probably 22-26. Once potential parents get past that age, the risks of various health issues start to rise, both for mother and child. I wonder about the long-term consequences.


 This is one of the reasons I wanted to have our children younger .. I *did* consider the growing risks as a woman's age increases, yet fertility does not always go as planned (as we learned after our 1st ....so thankful I didn't take birth control not knowing I had an issue.. as we probably wouldn't have our family today ...

My best friend growing up...she waited till past age 35... then she got Graves Disease, it wasn't happening around her meds.. which were dangerous for a growing fetus...she never realized her desire to be a Mother...her animals fill that void.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

What I haven't heard yet on this thread is the undeniable fact that people change so much between 23 and 35. 

A 23 year old can be perfectly mature enough and ready for marriage/kids, but by the time they are 35 or even 40, they are looking across the bed at a partner that has changed into a completely different person. 

I am 43 and I don't even know my 25 year-old self. It seems that marriages starting in the later 20s or 30s have a much better chance to succeed, partly because by then you've had more time to turn into the person you are ultimately going to be. You've also had some time to get the crazy out, and sow your oats so to speak.

The trend I'm seeing in upper-middle class Chicago is marriage in the 28-35 range, and I think that's about right. Have a kid or two before your late 30s. No problem. These people are in better shape financially and more secure with who they are. This actually gives me more hope that marriages and family units will stay with us. People are learning (at least in these geographic and socio-economic groups) from their parents' mistakes.

This will result in smaller families from this group but that's okay. Also, people are working longer and living longer, so raising a kid into your 50s doesn't mean what it used to mean.


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## Nigel Pinchley (Jul 29, 2014)

Another millenial here, and I'm seeing these same trends.

It's interesting, though. Most unmarried people I know personally in this demographic actually want that companionship of a mate and usually have long-term, live-in girlfriends/boyfriends, it's just that very few want the legal, contractual stuff that comes with marriage. And it's not gender-specific, either. I know just as many women who say, "why hamstring my relationship with this person that I love by tying it to some property-based contract?"

Personally, I don't regret getting married, and I don't necessarily see this trend as my generation being "wiser" about it so much as I see it as a corollary to the trend of marriages becoming ever more impermanent.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Many of you know that I'm not legally married. What people think about that is none of my business. 

For me the idea of a wedding has always made me a little depressed. I don't have much family so my side of the chapel would be quite empty... no dad or suitable (that I feel close enough to) replacement to walk me down the aisle either. So that is one thing that has put me off. Another is that I'm no longer very religious as I once was. I don't believe I am damned to hell for living in sin. That former belief would have been a big motivator to me for marrying. 

I suppose I could elope to avoid all of that or go to city hall but then I am not sure that I'd be doing that for me/us or so that people could take me and my eleven year relationship more seriously.  My motivations for actually tying the knot would be external ones and more about you (the proverbial you)... like I said it's none of my business. I don't think it would change the way I feel about a or my current life partner. What matters to me is commitment, fidelity, raising and nurturing family together and being partners in that. 

As many of you know, he did cheat on me two years ago. I don't think a legal marriage to him would have prevented that and I'm kind of glad that I wasn't married and having to go through a divorce or initial proceedings and then reconciliation on top of the emotional mess that I was already in. 

All that being said, I do value the things that marriage represents and respect those of you here that are married legally and/or under God. It's just not something that I feel is missing from my life and am happy with the way we are.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Can't say that I Blame them. The generations that have come before them have set horrible examples. Divorces, infidelity, years of court battles to determine financial support and custody. I never believed in divorce as my parents are together this year 45 years. My x wife had no problem cheating and leaving cause that's what she saw her own mother do. This like so many things comes from what we learn and see as examples from our parents and society.

I have little hope for my kids to look for marriage. I certainly won't encourage it but if they go that route I will pay for the lawyer to draw each of them up a prenup agreement at least.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I do find it sad that marriage is no longer something people care about....
> 
> Surprising.. not at all.. I see this as the fall out to sex being so free & plentiful while single.. but I also feel this creates more emotional baggage than some are willing to admit here.. .people carry those experiences into their marriages later on, trust is harder to find when we have a string of failed relationships under our belt...
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Gabriel said:


> I am 43 and I don't even know my 25 year-old self.


I am 47 and I can look back and understand my 18 yr old self pretty well.. oh I had things to grow in ..I had some anger issues to work out with my upbringing... I was always very self reflective...every dream I had then is still what it would be if I went back there....I always had my future in mind, I was inspired by things I seen growing up, and repulsed by other things I seen .....knowing what I DIDN'T want for my life.....I seen some harsh realities.... so I didn't have rose colored glasses on and trust people (meaning boys) so easily.. I weighed all of these things in my head.. 

And I sure hope our children do -even though they pretty much had it easy..in comparison to me....

We were saving in our teens for our future...we always spoke of the children we would have someday...if anything, we might not have "played" enough, and took time to smell the roses , in our youth.. but the vision was so clear... we didn't dream BIG.. as to make it more attainable... more to our grasping.. 



> *Miss Taken said:* I don't have much family so my side of the chapel would be quite empty... no dad or suitable (that I feel close enough to) replacement to walk me down the aisle either. So that is one thing that has put me off.


 I never felt like I had much family there for me either.. why I wanted my own so strongly...

For whatever it is worth.... this can be worked around ...even though I have a Father & he came sitting in the back row in his blue jeans... he didn't walk me down the aisle when we had our large wedding - My husband walked half way down, kissed my hand and we walked back together.. nothing wrong with being an original and shaking up some Tradition... 

I was in a friends wedding last year, she had her oldest son walk her down the aisle (her father was never in her life either).... it was beautiful ! 



> *Trickster said*: I don't believe it is about having a string of failed relationships. I still believe most people want a monogamous relationship.


 I could have worded it a better way.. you you did a post not too long ago, I believe on Scarlet B's thread (now deleted) how , because of your wife's hurtful rejection over all these years...and it's deep impact on your psyche ... if you were ever single, you would NEED a more sexually aggressive women/ one who initiates...and nothing less...because this took such a deep emotional toll on you... (many men in your shoes can attest to this)...it's not something you can wash off and just start again....it just doesn't work that way... 

This is what I mean... the more we open ourselves up to someone who doesn't treat us right , demean us, hurt, emasculate...(in the areas *we care* so much about)...a betrayal of any type of intimacy..this is soul crushing.....other things like physical abuse...LYING.... neglect...it's like getting sliced with a knife over and over & over again.. some scars will never fully heal... and the more difficult it is *to ever TRUST* *again.*.. 

I just think people, in general, are looking more for FUN and casual hook ups in their early years.. but there is a price for this too... it becomes a lifestyle... you live THAT all through your 20's -into your 30's... how easy is it to switch to a more Romantic Commitment focused lifestyle... I just don't think it works this way.. beware of your detours.. enter the sea of people all saying what they want - like it is the same as the rest of us, but the tools to TRUST have been so eroded....mention ..."Vulnerability".. they'd want to run like hell... 

.. Some people have been betrayed so much in their lives ..they have as much lost all faith in the opposite sex...we can feel it in many posts here...we cant help but look through the eyes of our own experiences...

Shouldn't we teach our children to be more selective to whom they let in their lives...the company they keep... at least it should minimize the pain...as they wade through finding that special person.. It seems for break ups today..what is common...Use a TEXT...good enough... I know someone -he broke up with his GF of 4 yrs through a damn text.. and left her hanging... do you know how pathetic I think that is. Characterless.. Seeing it's pretty common among teens too, it's the new way...People easily exit what is uncomfortable.. Not OK.



> You have this happily ever after mentality. Your husband may be the same


 I don't want to have to apologize for feeling as I do....I realize some probably read my stuff and think......


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

SA

Nothing wrong with the happily ever after attitude.... I actually like it. I didn't mean it in a derogatory way... Sorry about that.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Yes SA-

My wife has messed with my mind...my confidence..

My gf before my wife, 23 some years ago. ( wow that was a long time ago) My gf at the time, just wanted to roll in the hay. She wasn't after the friendship part of it... So when my wife came around and wanted the friendship/companship, I liked it at the time. 

All my previous highly sexual relationships were all emotionially empty and caused me to pick a virgin wife...go figure...

Yes I agree with what you said.


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## cuchulain36 (Jul 8, 2014)

I married at 22 and my wife was 19, we split for three years and got back together, it's been incredibly difficult, I worked the entire time and helped put her through school, she graduated last May and got her teaching credentials. I went through a decade of no sex, her affairs (early on) and put up with a ton of crap, we're on the tail end of our marriage as she now wants more than I can offer (shocking it came after she got her degree), and with a degree and job I've become unnecessary. We have agreed to stay together for the children at least until our youngest is in High School, but it will be a sham marriage for both of us. 

I like this arrangement as we're both free to do what we want but the kids think we're together and I think it's important for kids to have both parents in the house.

At the end of the day marriage brought me the absolute lowest points of my life aside from the death of my son with the affairs and mental pain she put me through, and the absolute highest points of my life like the times it was good between my wife and I, the birth of our children, the excitement of buying our first home, and even watching her graduate college, bbq's, parties, just enjoying life. I don't regret it to be honest, even with all the baggage that came along with it. At the end of the day I'll be in my 40's with kids in college or High School, no debt, and able to start over. I'll even be young enough to torture myself and do it all over again :rofl:


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

I think Millenials *THINK *they are being logical but honestly, they are being illogical about "Marriage Avoidance." They should be logical like me, a Generation Xer.

I have observed that most successful people I know, most successful couples, are married.

And I don't just mean the American definition of success - finances. . .but in all dimensions. Health, wealth, happiness, free time, family stability, spirituality. (i'm sorry. . .the "Default" american definition of success. . .I don't think Americans are THAT shallow). I don't know many successful single people. That doesn't mean they are all screaming failures but they just kind of stagnate on a lot of dimensions.

If you need an analogy, I'll share something about my profession - chiropractic.

ONe of the reasons we suffer (among a lot) in the healthcare community at large is because all of us tend to gravitate towards "Solo Practice." To make it in solo practice is very hard (esp. nowadays). And even if you make it, you aren't as profitable.

Accountants know this. . .they actually have formulaic projections on how a doctor will do if he moves from Solo Practice to Group Practice with no other changes than simply the merger itself. That is, same location, same staff, same services: Group Practice more profitable and bountiful than Solo Practice, even adjusting out splitting overhead in two.

In other words 1 + 1 = 3. Or well, at least 1 + 1 = 2.3 or 2.5.

I think it's the same with marriage. Your health improves because you motivate each other more nutrition and exercise and have healthful sex. Your finances improve because of sharing costs and collaboration on investments. Your spirituality improves by 2 souls becoming one. Your humor and outlook improves.

At least IN THEORY. And as a divorced man, I understand what I am saying is theoretical. I know partnerships can go south. I know they can dissolve and fall apart. In marriage and in healthcare practice.

But I feel partnership SHOULD be the goal even if one (or two) fail and make logical sense based on the prevailing data.

Logic, Mathematics, and Data. . .that's what marriage is all about. *in Spock voice*


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Scannerguard said:


> I think Millenials *THINK *they are being logical but honestly, they are being illogical about "Marriage Avoidance." They should be logical like me, a Generation Xer.
> 
> I have observed that most successful people I know, most successful couples, are married.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of this. While being single is better than being in a bad marriage, it's not as nice as being in a good marriage. A purgatory life style so to speak to avoid failure. Unfortunately many lessons are learned from experience so the delay only postpones the lesson.

That being said, I still think 25 is a good target plus or minus a few years. Too soon and you never have a chance to know what being single feels like. Too late and you're working against nature.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I'd be hard pressed to explain to a young man how marriage would enhance his life. If the guy has a decent job, marriage offers some security for the bride. Whether the marriage succeeds or fails, she can expect to generally come out ahead. Can't think of any benefit the average guy could expect that wouldn't be more likely obtained from just living with a woman. There is zero performance he can expect from a wife. She will give or withhold as she pleases. A single woman does the same. In my state, when the ring slides on, he assumes her debt. If the marriage fails she has at least a 75% chance of getting any kids and at least half his current assets as well as at least 33% of his future earnings. this, whether she cheats or not, whether she works or not, whether they were married 5 months or 15 years.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

inquizitivemind said:


> I don't care if people get married and I can see why they wait. Wish I would have.
> 
> I do care though about people supporting their children and maintaining a family unit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don't care about people creating other people then not supporting and raising them? Wow. Just wow.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Scannerguard said:


> I think Millenials *THINK *they are being logical but honestly, they are being illogical about "Marriage Avoidance." They should be logical like me, a Generation Xer.
> 
> I have observed that most successful people I know, most successful couples, are married.
> 
> ...




This makes sense in any business partnership, unless they compete against each other. The business or medical practice have to complement each other.

You are a Chiropractor. Two Chico's in the same office space may work. If one of you are busy one day, the other could squeeze another patient in. In addition, to share an office assistant , computers, faxes, phone. Some Chico's know kinesiology. I imagine most do now. Some specialize in nutrition...The point being, each do their part for the benefit of the team to keep the business going. If one partner slacks off, the business relationship will eventually fall apart.

I am an Orthopedic Massage Therapist. I had a business partner for 12 years who was also an Orthopedic Massage Therapist. Although we were independent of each other, there was some competion and him believing he was better... Our building was torn down recently and we had a difference of opinion of where we wanted to relocate. 

So

I rented space with a Chiropractor and a Pilate's instructor. Although I was doing great before, after a period of death of my business, I am back on track and I will exceed what I had with my previous business partner. I even have my LLC now where I didn't before as well as my own CC swiper using my iPhone. I had a flip phone before that. I was forced to grow a little and did I ever grow...

Sometimes, we are stagnant in our marriage though, and if things are somewhat OK, we stay until it becomes unbearable.

With my new business and partners, I am in a much better place than a year ago. I didn't have the courage to break away from a self absorbed business partner. I was forced into it. What's that term I'm thinking of? (me me me?)

Some people are forced into divorce. They may want to leave for years before it happens. So they cheat, they become mean spirited, the slack of on sex, get lazy, gain weight...whatever it is. IMO, people cheat in their mind way before they actually cheat. People think of divorce in their mind way way before they actually act on it. Then the self-fulfilling prophesy takes over. 

Marriage makes it hard to dissolve the partnership...Milliennials want the freedom to choose the new " business partner" when they no longer feel there is growth. Like in a business, especially a Chiropractor or an Orthopedic Massage Therapist like me, if I don't see steady growth, I will eventually have no clients. Not enough to keep up with inflation.

Geez, I wrote too much.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I was reading some of the reviews on this book today... 

 Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters : Books

I am very tempted to buy this.. just to see what is laid out.. here are 2 of the responses.. one from a single Man.. and one from a single woman....



> I think marriage and family are probably the best things you could possibly have in life. Having said that, why am I single and childless? Too risky. Divorce rate is too high. Households headed by married adults are now in the minority. The rate of increase in female perpetrated crime continues to skyrocket. Jobs are scarce. A large percentage of well educated women don't want kids or want them late in life. There are fatherless kids all over the place. One slip up with a woman and your life could be ruined.
> 
> I'm one of the many `on strike', which is wise considering the potential consequences and all that I might come up against in today's legal and economic climate. I'm well educated, have a great career, my own home, yada...yada...yada. No way am I betting all that on the flip of a coin. I can't even fathom how families with children handle divorce. Must be the most soul crushing thing in life for all involved. I consider what I'm doing to be identical to what women have done over the past 40+ years. I'm opting out of the traditional way of life.
> 
> ...





> Why would I rate it 3 stars if I thought it was depressing?? It was pretty well written and I have witness the examples in the book several times in real life. I have witnessed my married friends treat their husbands as paychecks...the husband passes their paycheck to the wife as she plans everything and he has no say about the money HE earned. I have seen women not have sex with their husbands once they get married. I have also seen men as a meal ticket. I can go on and on...what gets me is that this makes the good women look bad. The women who want to get married for love...not a meal ticket. Who enjoy having sex with their husbands...and would like to earn their own money.
> 
> It makes me sad as a single women that men are not willing to get married since they have so much to lose...or even men that were married are not willing to give it a go again. Do you blame them?? No. If you are single woman in your 30s +....this maybe a hard book to read. I dont think all men are pervs like some of these so called feminists believe. There is a difference between "man hating" and feminism. Even though I continue to navigate the online dating waters after all the retarded messages I have recieved....it kills me that men dont even try anymore. The book also gives you tips on how to take action...but will men actually follow through?? Not sure...I would hope...especially against the feminazis.
> 
> I maybe someone who is setting the womans movement back 50 years....but I really dont care. I am thankful to have a college education and a great career....but the man bashing has to stop...the thinking men are all pervs has to stop...the mentality that men are a meal ticket has to stop...we need to encourage everyone!! This book is not for the faint of heart...it is brutally honest...but a good read.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

If you click on the book, you can read the first few pages...

It refers to the Manning Up book...

It may confirm what these millenials are thinking as well as older divorced men.The Manning Up book makes men seem worthless and not needed for anything...Men on Strike seems more balanced.

Thanks SA. I may buy the book.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> You are a Chiropractor. Two Chico's in the same office space may work. If one of you are busy one day, the other could squeeze another patient in. In addition, to share an office assistant , computers, faxes, phone. Some Chico's know kinesiology. I imagine most do now. Some specialize in nutrition...The point being, each do their part for the benefit of the team to keep the business going. If one partner slacks off, the business relationship will eventually fall apart.


Trickster:


Chico = chiro?

I am not sure what the message was you were trying to convey, whether you disagreed or agreed fundamentally with what I wrote, but I would say in 

A. Marriage
B. In Business
C. In the business of marriage

there really never is a 50/50 partnership. Usually one partner puts a little more effort in and ideally, if you put more effort in, than you should get more out to be fair.

Like let's say I put more effort into the sexual side of things. Well then, we are playing "Boss/secretary" on Saturday night or something else kinky, no?

If you put in more into the house, then guess what? You get the new island in the kitchen and backsplash and I don't get the Endless Pool I always wanted. Not always but sometimes.

Ideally that's how a partnership should function in A, B, and C. But yes, hard feeling develop when one partner is carrying everything an dthe other partner is getting 50%.

You can't parse over too much on who gets what and when dividing up everything to be fair, but for the most part, it's better to be in a partnership even if it's 65%/35% vs. being Solo Practice, Solo in life. 

That's my point. . .a lot of chiropractors make that mistake. . .they scream "I'll be better off on my own." and then strike out into the cold cruel world and find out, "Gee, it wasn't so hot being solo. . .this didn't work out the way I thought." I think a lot of single people and divorcees make that mistake too.

I think after that 66% mark, hard feelings develop about disproportionate effort/reward and yes, divorce or partnership break-up becomes a higher and higher risk.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I was reading some of the reviews on this book today...
> 
> Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters : Books
> 
> I am very tempted to buy this.. just to see what is laid out.. here are 2 of the responses.. one from a single Man.. and one from a single woman....


I think 30 years from now more Millennials than any previous generation will be clinically depressed and questioning the meaning of life, unwilling to accept that they chose not to have kids or only have one kid and therefore no legacy. Until you have kids, you don't know what you're missing. Until you have grandkids, you don't know what you're missing.

People don't know what they don't know though. They sometimes feel unfulfilled and unhappy but can't put a finger on why. Hey... great job, great friends, great partner finally, great (fill in the blank), so they wonder why they're so unhappy. What I've seen is that the first grandchild changes people. It's like a biological success trigger.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

Rayloveshiswife said:


> Many more couples just living together and not having kids.
> 
> 
> > unfortunately that does not seem to be common. What unfortunately DOES seem common are young couples not getting married, but moving in with each other quickly, and then having kids. Then 2 years later the man changes his mind and moves out...leaving the poor unmarried mom stuck holding the proverbial bag.
> ...


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

murphy5 said:


> Rayloveshiswife said:
> 
> 
> > Many more couples just living together and not having kids.
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Trickster said:


> *The link above states that well educated people still marry. Blue collar folks are the ones who don't marry and leave the woman. I don't know how true this is.*..


Just as anything else ...statistics have their place...I always refer to them myself...yet the white collar / blue collar thing, I would say means less over one's overall beliefs, sexual views / romantic ideals ...to what marriage means to someone ...if anything...(many have been so soured on it due to what they have seen in their lives all around them, I had some beautiful examples growing up -even if my own parents was a train wreck)

Husband is as Blue collar as they come ..(the most college he had was some computer school in a big city -got a certificate- never got anything from it... Me, I am just a High school Grad)....I would say growing up with some sort of Faith...raised in that atmosphere, I had friends in youth group, I enjoyed it ...(so long as the experience was good & not all hypocrites to turn our stomach of course)....these things influence us....

Myself & H, admittedly are rather old fashioned in a # of ways..What shows did I enjoy watching in my early teens (even when I was listening to AC/Dc's "Highway to hell"... I guess I was a bit mixed up).. but I LOVED "







and the Waltons...







what can I say... My ideal growing up, what I wanted to be like was "*the Proverbs 31 woman*"... (some would mock that today)... 

I just wanted to cater to my Man, have a family..I wanted that mutual "everything" together way of life.. 

We raise our children with these says ideals.. It appears to be going against the grain of "partying" and sowing wild oats" that is so common today...like this is some sort of right of passage ....they encounter it in high school.. our sons are not rebellious... they LIKE our way, they believe it is good. ..we'll see how that plays out for them... I do worry for them though.... But also for our daughter...it's a new world... 



Trickster said:


> Yes SA-
> 
> My wife has messed with my mind...my confidence..
> 
> ...


 I think on both sides of this.. with the inexperienced...they could be repressed due to too much religious conditioning or shame.. (and hidden low drive as well...which could render a man in misery after the vows)..I worry about this for our own sons...because they do want a girl who is waiting for Love...

Then on the other side of this coin.... women feel a freedom /liberation physically...yet may struggle with the emotional / the vulnerable.... likely because they have been hurt badly by men who walked away- they opened their heart only to have it stomped on... it may have started very early & been a downward spiral... ...they want to keep from attaching to spare themselves the pain....so they learned to shut their emotions down.. not expecting anything from the men, just easier that way... 

2 emotionally detached people may have a struggle to get very deep, where real intimacy takes hold... 

We all need to find that healthy balance and work it out once we find someone to share it all with...


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## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

Early millennial here. Neither I nor my ex saw the point in getting married, both because 'living in sin' was too much fun, and because common law relationships get most of the same rights. I didn't have an especially high regard for marriage anyway, but having been through what I did with her and having seen all the unhappy people here, I can't help but feel even more put off by it. 

Where Have the Good Men Gone? - WSJ

There's over 2000 comments on this article (I've linked it before). Some theorize that men wouldn't mind having a wife and family but don't want to get taken to the cleaners in divorce court.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Trickster said:


> If you click on the book, you can read the first few pages...
> 
> It refers to the Manning Up book...
> 
> ...


Many would be upset by the book.. but I do believe it captures what many men feel today ...and are thinking..whether that is OK or not.. and what to do about it - is worth a discussion... 

This book could be a prelude to the other..nothing at all about marriage- just the environment many boys are living ...talks about the social, cultural, and biological factors contributing.

Boys Adrift: The Five Factors Driving the Growing Epidemic of Unmotivated Boys and Underachieving Young Men 



> Something scary is happening to boys today. From kindergarten to college, American boys are, on average, less resilient and less ambitious than they were a mere twenty years ago. The gender gap in college attendance and graduation rates has widened dramatically. While Emily is working hard at school and getting A’s, her brother Justin is goofing off. He’s more concerned about getting to the next level in his videogame than about finishing his homework.
> 
> Now, Dr. Leonard Sax delves into the scientific literature and draws on more than twenty years of clinical experience to explain why boys and young men are failing in school and disengaged at home. He shows how social, cultural, and biological factors have created an environment that is literally toxic to boys. He also presents practical solutions, sharing strategies which educators have found effective in re-engaging these boys at school, as well as handy tips for parents about everything from homework, to videogames, to medication.


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> What they do have is committed long term sexual relationships without contracts. I'm not happy that this is what my son will be offered.
> MN


I think it's good to be more mature before getting married but that generally means that they will have lots of partners before settling down. People will disagree but I don't think it's healthy for people to jump between multiple partners.
There are also lots of people not getting married at all and still starting a family. It sounds so weird when kids have parents who are boyfriend/girlfriend.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> I think 30 years from now more Millennials than any previous generation will be clinically depressed and questioning the meaning of life, unwilling to accept that they chose not to have kids or only have one kid and therefore no legacy. Until you have kids, you don't know what you're missing. Until you have grandkids, you don't know what you're missing.
> 
> People don't know what they don't know though. They sometimes feel unfulfilled and unhappy but can't put a finger on why. Hey... great job, great friends, great partner finally, great (fill in the blank), so they wonder why they're so unhappy. What I've seen is that the first grandchild changes people. It's like a biological success trigger.


You may be right, but I really don't know. I'm a baby boomer, so can't relate well to Millenial thinking and issues, but I do know that having children (I have one, wife has two) isn't something that was a goal for either of us and we would have preferred none (we do not regret having them). Neither of us wants grandchildren (but that's our kids' decision), and are happy living too far away to see them much if our kids do have children.


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## Nigel Pinchley (Jul 29, 2014)

I definitely don't buy into the notion that not having children constitutes a large emptiness. My wife and I are childless by choice, and while I can acknowledge that children are a large accomplishment (of sorts, I know lots of terrible parents, too), I just don't see it. 

Most of the millennial parents I know followed exactly the path that FF described: They had kids because they figured that was the next step in life. They love their kids, spending time with them, etc, but many of the ones I've talked to will tell you outright that they're not sure it was the right choice and that they wish they'd have thought about it harder instead of just having them.

Personally for my wife and I, America is just in too much a state of flux economically, politically, and socially for us to feel comfortable bringing children into it. That may sound over dramatic, but even my home town is in a state of disarray as it attempts to incorporate from our parish (county) bc the parish schools are too bad.

And being frank, we're just too selfish with our time and money to want children. I don't think that constitutes any kind of emptiness or lack of richness so much as we're trying to be responsible about the decision.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Nigel Pinchley said:


> *And being frank, we're just too selfish with our time and money to want children. I don't think that constitutes any kind of emptiness or lack of richness so much as we're trying to be responsible about the decision*.


I have never felt a couple was selfish for not wanting kids...
.. we want what we want.. I think we should all pursue our passions...so we are happier people.. 

*I have even turned this around saying I was SELFISH FOR WANTING KIDS *.....I did this post on the http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/181210-kids-no-kids-regrets-5.html thread...



> Speaking from one who Dreamed of a larger family (I hated being an only child and envied my best friends large family growing up, they inspired me)...yet I would never say this about childless couples -EVER.....I have always stood up for couples who choose to NOT have kids.... because if there is anything I have learned in life & the pursuit of happiness...by just observing others...their story's....it is this >>>
> 
> The last thing any of us should do is ... CONFORM to another's beliefs or life choices *out of guilt*, or some notion of *"acceptance"* if it's NOT in our 's to go that route....this will almost inevitably lead to a place of unhappiness / unsettledness....True, this could change later down the road, but our personal passions ...so often = feeling our purpose.... so we shouldn't get sidetracked with pleasing others too much...only in the "responsible"....as this blesses ALL.
> 
> ...


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> You may be right, but I really don't know. I'm a baby boomer, so can't relate well to Millenial thinking and issues, but I do know that having children (I have one, wife has two) isn't something that was a goal for either of us and we would have preferred none (we do not regret having them). Neither of us wants grandchildren (but that's our kids' decision), and are happy living too far away to see them much if our kids do have children.


I'm sure some a lot of people feel the same way that you do. It's hard for me to grasp emotionally since I'm at the other extreme. But logically I get it. I still think there are quite a few parents who thought they didn't want kids until they started having them. Even though you bring up the alternate point of view.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

*Re: Re: Millennials say no to marriage*



Jetranger said:


> Early millennial here. Neither I nor my ex saw the point in getting married, both because 'living in sin' was too much fun, and because common law relationships get most of the same rights. I didn't have an especially high regard for marriage anyway, but having been through what I did with her and having seen all the unhappy people here, I can't help but feel even more put off by it.


I think I'm even more cynical about it now. The SIM and CWI forums depress me greatly. Certainly a wedding is no guarantee to a happy marriage. Having been betrayed by and dnow reconciling with my spouse, I am even more put off by "legitimizing" this.

I live in Ontario Canada, my relationship is already recognized for the purposes of spousal and child support, insurance, death benefits, income tax etc. Any legal rights in marriage that are not automatically granted to my relationship can be worked around via powers of attorney, wills, cohabitation and separation agreements. As far as family, partnership in raising our kids, we have/are doing so for over eleven years now.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

SA-

You are making me dig deep here...

5 or so years back, I was visiting my best friend from my high school days. He got married soon after graduating and started his family. I went into the military...

While my wife, daughter and I were visiting, be asked me what took me so long to start my family. " I always saw you as a family man". 

That may have been true. With my messed up childhood, I didn't want to bring children into this world. I didn't think I would be a good father. It didn't mean I didn't want children. 

So when I met my wife, a virgin, non drinker, non smoker, didn't cuss, wasn't wild and crazy, a woman who was emotionally stable ( i thought) a woman with normal parents and siblings...I wasn't thinking it at the time. Not that I was aware of. Eventually, I thought she would be a great role model.

Now, I don't want to mess up my daughter because of my selfishness...or whatever is going on in my mind. 

On some Ievel, I was in love with the " idea of being in love and that happily ever after marriage".

Its funny that I said that about you....


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## Nigel Pinchley (Jul 29, 2014)

I also think that one of the reasons you see so much disillusionment with the institution of marriage with millenials is that many of us were largely raised by the television. As much as anyone may laugh at what I'm about to say, I think for many millenials it's a tough thing to realize that real life is not nearly so clean, neat, or sanitary as the Disney movies and family sitcoms we watched in our formative years. Not every story has a happy ending, love does not conquer all, and family problems cannot be neatly solved with 100% closure in 30 minutes (22 if you count commercials).


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## cuchulain36 (Jul 8, 2014)

So many millennial boys saw their fathers replaced and sent packing by mom so I'm sure that's tied into the decision for many millennial men not to seek marriage at a greater rate than previous generations. Watching your mom have an affair, toss out your dad and move in some fella will certainly make a kid apprehensive about marriage in the future.

I think until the courts stop the bias against men we'll keep seeing women cheat and file for divorce at disproportionately huge levels. Really a woman can ditch the husband, get half his pay, the house, half his pension, and the vast majority of assets, then add in her boyfriends salary to the household and she can easily keep her lifestyle the same or even upgrade it if she finds herself in a rut or bored with hubby, while the man has a ton to lose so he seeks divorce far less.

Honestly I think the laws need to go back to punishing adultery during divorce and making divorce harder in order to try to stem the tide of adultery and divorce, it really is very damaging to children and society.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I definitely do not want my kids to get married young. My husband and I dated for almost 7 years before we got married at 25. It worked for us but we knew each other very well at that point.

My BIL waited until he was 34 to get married. He dated a lot of different women and thought he found the perfect woman in my SIL (27 when they got married). She ended up cheating on him. Personally I don't think they dated long enough before marriage, not even close to two years.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Nigel Pinchley said:


> I also think that one of the reasons you see so much disillusionment with the institution of marriage with millenials is that many of us were largely raised by the television. As much as anyone may laugh at what I'm about to say, I think for many millenials it's a tough thing to realize that real life is not nearly so clean, neat, or sanitary as the Disney movies and family sitcoms we watched in our formative years. Not every story has a happy ending, love does not conquer all, and family problems cannot be neatly solved with 100% closure in 30 minutes (22 if you count commercials).


People don't like to believe virtual reality influences them because it's insulting. Logically we know virtual reality is different. But below the surface, it makes perfect sense. Virtual reality fires the same emotional and chemical responses that reality does. We've had thousands of years for our minds to use what we see around us to build our view of the world. Now we suddenly introduce (not real) reality and think our evolutionary habits aren't kicking in.

There's a reason why we feel like we know characters of shows we watch for a long time. It's our innate friend-dar kicking in. When the characters of 'friends' makes us happy everytime we see them then our brains put them in the friend category. Whatever they say, think, and believe matters subconsciously to us.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> People don't like to believe virtual reality influences them because it's insulting. Logically we know virtual reality is different. But below the surface, it makes perfect sense. Virtual reality fires the same emotional and chemical responses that reality does. We've had thousands of years for our minds to use what we see around us to build our view of the world. Now we suddenly introduce (not real) reality and think our evolutionary habits aren't kicking in.
> 
> .


Interesting theory. Maybe a virtual reality world is accelerating (or at least influencing strongly) how human beings evolve. So...if you play SIMLIFE, or other virtual world games, or frequent chat sites, your monogamy/sexual mores get modified/evolve?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *I definitely do not want my kids to get married young. My husband and I dated for almost 7 years before we got married at 25. It worked for us but we knew each other very well at that point*.


 We were together a good 6 + yrs before we married too.. I can't speak against young love in every situation -cause sometimes it really does work out..

.. Our 2nd son will be with his girlfriend 3 years in Oct.. they are just 17.... I tell them , if they ever break up, to not dare look each other up on Facebook in the future...as this is a strong "1st love"...they seem very compatible...from what I can tell.. the euphoria has died down, but steady they remain... they may go to different colleges, we'll see how that works out...



> My BIL waited until he was 34 to get married. He dated a lot of different women and thought he found the perfect woman in my SIL (27 when they got married). She ended up cheating on him. *Personally I don't think they dated long enough before marriage, not even close to two years.*


 Relationship experts say the 1st 18 months...one can not tell the difference between infatuation.. or a lasting love.. if a couple makes it past this ...still loving their time together...romantically enthralled...they have beat the odds...but it does take TIME, lots of shared experiences, seeing how a couple handles conflict speaks so much also.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Nigel Pinchley said:


> I also think that one of the reasons you see so much disillusionment with the institution of marriage with millenials is that many of us were largely raised by the television. As much as anyone may laugh at what I'm about to say, I think for many millenials it's a tough thing to realize that real life is not nearly so clean, neat, or sanitary as the Disney movies and family sitcoms we watched in our formative years. Not every story has a happy ending, love does not conquer all, and family problems cannot be neatly solved with 100% closure in 30 minutes (22 if you count commercials).


These people need to be watching as Much Dr Phil and reading some relationships books in addition.. that's all... I tend to take a different view... if you have 2 self aware individuals who are pretty commonsensical...you look at life and it's problems in the bigger picture.. realizing you can get through anything....so long as you have breathe (and each other).....there is hope...you carry on...you may pray at the end of the day for guidance , for peace.. but you seek (daily) to take the best path to deal with what's before you.. 

I am very realistic minded... even a bit pessimistic to keep my feet on the ground...or from being a "dreamer"...(so is my H)... 

Sometimes the husband may "carry" the wife a little more (I felt my husband did this for me during infertility) .. or the wife may "carry" the husband more so - let's say he Lost his job...and was "really down" for a time.. for her to do all she could, carry the financial load if need be.. to encourage him during that time.. when 2 work together for a shared goal, keeping that vision before them..... a marriage in real life can be just as inspiring as any episode on any given Tv show, or movie...

We surely have enough Horror films at the box office, blood & gore and infidelity to feast our eyes on, I don't feel Disney or any Romantic movie needs to play down it's reality..to be more authentic.. (they are meant to be inspiring)...*we identify greatly with moments in those films*...and really... they have their share of DRAMA too.... some difficult obstacle to overcome leading to the "feel good" ending....(or we'd be bored!)... the greater the obstacle or boulder in the way... generally the more inspiring a movie will be..


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## Nigel Pinchley (Jul 29, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> We surely have enough Horror films at the box office, blood & gore and infidelity to feast our eyes on, I don't feel Disney or any Romantic movie needs to play down it's reality..to be more authentic.. (they are meant to be inspiring)...we identify greatly with moments in those films...and really... they have their share of DRAMA too.... some difficult obstacle to overcome leading to the "feel good" ending....(or we'd be bored!)... the greater the obstacle or boulder in the way... generally the more inspiring a movie will be..


But see, that's exactly my point. When you're raised on that sort of thing almost from birth, it becomes subconscious programming. I agree that we enjoy those things because we identify with them, but I think for some millennials, even though we may know and acknowledge on an academic level that those things are fantasy, those things still had a very strong influence on our life expectations.

And now we're having to unlearn all of that.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Waiting to get married until after 25 is smart.


I would say early 30s as most people really don't know themselves well/are not fully matured until then.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Nigel Pinchley said:


> But see, that's exactly my point. When you're raised on that sort of thing almost from birth, it becomes subconscious programming. I agree that we enjoy those things because we identify with them, but I think for some millennials, even though we may know and acknowledge on an academic level that those things are fantasy, *those things still had a very strong influence on our life expectations*.
> 
> And now we're having to unlearn all of that.


I am sorry to not be getting this, but I am not sure I know what you mean?? Shouldn't we have certain expectations... I had certain expectations in what I wanted in a romantic relationship going in...when I was younger & had time on my side.. that's wisdom, isn't it...

I just feel those need to explored and found in the dating years... not after the vows ...EVER... never expect a man or woman to change just cause a ring is put on it...(doesn't matter what they promise).. and give it lots of time.. shared experiences...*and NEVER NEVER expect the other to GIVE MORE than we are willing to give ourselves*.. 

There is such a thing called "the Princess Syndrome".. for instance, learned of that here on TAM... a relationship wrecking ball for sure..Men be aware ...Don't let her looks blind you. ..

Combating Princess Syndrome | Psychology Today

My point is ... a part of being self aware is knowing what we could put up with and what we could not ...for the long haul.. and what may bother some men , another may appreciate, and vice versa.. all about compatibility at the end of the day.


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## Canuck99 (Jul 17, 2014)

ntamph said:


> Millennials say no to marriage - Jul. 20, 2014
> 
> I guess I'm a Millennial (barely) and these statistics line up with what I see around me. "Smart" people are getting married later when they are ready and the institution itself is generally fading (though slowly).
> 
> Do you agree?


I think most people don't know who they are or what they want until later in life, and today with a world full of choice, you need to know more than ever. 

In the past, we had no or few choices, so you got married because that is what you did, and you stayed together because that is what you did.

World isn't like that anymore. Marriage may become a tiny thing in the future, who knows. I think everything goes in cycles.


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## Nigel Pinchley (Jul 29, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am sorry to not be getting this, but I am not sure I know what you mean?? Shouldn't we have certain expectations... I had certain expectations in what I wanted in a romantic relationship going in...when I was younger & had time on my side.. that's wisdom, isn't it...


Having expectations that are grounded in reality and that acknowledge up front that human social/romantic interactions are oftentimes messy, problems are not easily fixed with an "I love you" and often require lots of sacrifice from both sides, is good.

Having expectations heavily influenced by Disney movies and sitcoms, where problems are easily and neatly solved in distinctly timeboxed cunks and couples ride off madly in love into the sunset without giving the audience any sense of the normal ups and downs that their marriage will face is bad, if not outright delusional. Such things gloss over the vast complexities and nuances of couple interaction, and when you grew up watching that, those notions can be hard to let go.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Nigel Pinchley said:


> Having expectations that are grounded in reality and that acknowledge up front that human social/romantic interactions are oftentimes messy, problems are not easily fixed with an "I love you" and often require lots of sacrifice from both sides, is good.
> 
> Having expectations heavily influenced by Disney movies and sitcoms, where problems are easily and neatly solved in distinctly timeboxed cunks and couples ride off madly in love into the sunset without giving the audience any sense of the normal ups and downs that their marriage will face is bad, if not outright delusional. Such things gloss over the vast complexities and nuances of couple interaction, and when you grew up watching that, those notions can be hard to let go.


What you say is good....Agreed...

I really never struggled with this, I seen some harsh realities of very bad choices in relationships growing up...those things played on my mind HEAVILY.... meaning I was very very cautious , the type that always says to herself.. "if it seems too good to be true, it likely IS.....don't be a fool".. (this would be my back talk- I am a doubting Thomas...the need to "see to believe" type).....I am a very hard sell.. on anything.. 

When a friend/ relative comes to me all giddy, they have found "the one"...thinking they are madly in love in a short period of time, I drill them... ask if they've had their 1st fight yet... and how that played down.. tell them to wait it out... the sh** will come.. then we'll talk. 

I suppose many go in NOT thinking of "the bad".. myself being a worrier by nature.. I did contemplate all that could go wrong.. ..though my focus was not on him/ US...at that point we knew each other like the back of our hand (I lived with him & his family for yrs before we married)... this part flowed very naturally....we loved being together, still do after 33 yrs.

My focus was more on externals...would we be able to make it / achieve our dreams, his getting a better job..(He worked in a Grocery store when we married)....affording the kids we wanted....never having to borrow.. we pride ourselves on being responsible.. .We both feel debt is like a noose around our necks....Looking back at it all.. the ride was smoother than I anticipated.. I worried WAY more than I should have even. 

Throwing a little temperament talk into this...

I am secondary Melancholy (my husband also)... we are planners, we're analytical... we count the cost (in detail).. we're wired that way.. 

Sanguines (on the other hand)...are more the "fly by the seat of your pants" type and hope it works out.. very idealistic / optimistic / the sun is ALWAYS shining, Life is a bowl of cherries type..this is one of their strengths -always happy go lucky...they can be a joy to be around... but it is also a weakness -when their feet aren't planted on that ground...with heels dug in...and anticipating some MUD along the way....ya know. 

But yes.. I agree with you.. Always.. we need to be realistic.. in love & marriage... in the obstacles that will come...Job stress, financial hardships...difficult neighbors, unforseen illnesses/ accidents (my biggest fears).. kids rebelling, sexual issues, etc etc ...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Odds say that MOST of those millennials that are foregoing marriage through their 20's are going to take marriage for a spin at some point in their life.

I don't necessarily think that being older makes one better qualified to be successful at marriage. I just think it changes the standards by which we measure marriage, and it's success.


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## Nigel Pinchley (Jul 29, 2014)

Deejo said:


> Odds say that MOST of those millennials that are foregoing marriage through their 20's are going to take marriage for a spin at some point in their life.
> 
> *I don't necessarily think that being older makes one better qualified to be successful at marriage.* I just think it changes the standards by which we measure marriage, and it's success.


I agree with the bolded 100%. I've not seen much anecdotal evidence in my own marriage or those of my friends that marrying older translates to better marriages. Most first time millenial marriages that I know of are plagued by the same issues that plague marriages regardless of the age at which they married: Lack of communication skills, inability to compromise or work as a team, lack of sympathy/empathy for one another, inability to acknowledge the other person's POV, money issues, etc.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Odds say that MOST of those millennials that are foregoing marriage through their 20's are going to take marriage for a spin at some point in their life.
> 
> I don't necessarily think that being older makes one better qualified to be successful at marriage. I just think it changes the standards by which we measure marriage, and it's success.


I think it's just the nature of the human condition.

I know many "smart" women that pushed back marriage for the sake of their careers, had strings of empty relationships, then suddenly when 40 comes crashing down on them they hopped into marriage with the first guy that they could pressure into it (bemoaning of course "why are all the good ones taken or gay"), then sat there unhappy as they try (often unsuccessfully) to pump out a kid with a guy they don't even like.

I know many "smart" guys that push back marriage for the sake of their careers, had strings of empty relationships, then when they turn 40 jump into marriage with some 25 year old, pump out a few kids immediately, then the guy usually realizes that they have nothing in common with their younger wife... who's suddenly not as hot any more in her sweat pants breast feeding their kids. So they live unhappy and bemoan "I worked for this?"

I know many women that got married young, had their kids early, and then went on to have a successful career. Then they realize they want more from life, start to go out all the time with the ones that pushed back marriage, decide they want that lifestyle, so they have flings, leave their husband, and then turn around and are alone at 40 as the other ones jump into having kids.

I know many guys that got married young, had kids early, freak out at 40, buy the motorbike or hot car, start chasing younger women, end up losing everything and sitting alone at the end of the bar cursing life and living in permanent Fear Of Missing Out.

Meh. Humans.

Me? I'm just glad I actually love my wife and usually get loved back.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

marduk said:


> Meh. Humans.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

We got married in our late 30's after dating 2+ years (decided to get married after about a year and a half). She was married before for several years. 

IMO, I got married for the wrong reasons. Had a buddy that I hung out with for years that finally found a woman (neither of us dated much, especially him). Figured that I better find someone as I didn't have anyone to hang with (I never dated much, and at that time, hadn't been on a date for over four years). Wife comes along and seems fun, and likes sex. Friends like her, which is great. We have some good times together. 

Fast forward to today - late 40's, two little kids, married to a woman who mentally/emotionally is about as mature as a 12 year old, no sex life, can't stand being around her most of the time, living as roommates in the same house.

Moral of the story - if you're ready, you're ready. Just because you're older doesn't mean that you're more mature and ready to get married. Except for my kids, I wish that I never would have met my wife.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

marduk said:


> I think it's just the nature of the human condition.
> 
> I know many "smart" women that pushed back marriage for the sake of their careers, had strings of empty relationships, then suddenly when 40 comes crashing down on them they hopped into marriage with the first guy that they could pressure into it (bemoaning of course "why are all the good ones taken or gay"), then sat there unhappy as they try (often unsuccessfully) to pump out a kid with a guy they don't even like.
> 
> ...


So, we want what we don't have, then unhappy when we get what we think we want?

Yes, we're a crazy lot.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I was over 30. I thought we had it nailed down. I've posted before, I can even remember having long heart to heart discussions with my wife, wondering how exactly two people in love can get so far apart that the best option looks like divorce?

We sadly answered that question, at just under 10 years.

I believe that marriage will always be in play. For all of our high-falootin' talk, and eye rolls aside, we are still driven to bond, benefit, and reproduce. Marriage isn't necessary for that, but it certainly wraps it in a nice little package. 

I just think the packaging needs a redesign.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

marduk said:


> I think it's just the nature of the human condition.
> 
> I know many "smart" women that pushed back marriage for the sake of their careers, had strings of empty relationships, then suddenly when 40 comes crashing down on them they hopped into marriage with the first guy that they could pressure into it (bemoaning of course "why are all the good ones taken or gay"), then sat there unhappy as they try (often unsuccessfully) to pump out a kid with a guy they don't even like.
> 
> ...


That really sums it up....







...how true this is......Everything you said happens.. there is no way to predict...

We met in our teens / married young /family started immediately... we never did anything wild & crazy in our youth.. we were very responsible, always saving $$, looking to the future type mindset... some would call us BORING.... but we didn't seem to care, we were content/ happy...

...H never had a Mid Life Crisis like some men go through (wanting some young Hot thing...a sports car, etc)... closest thing he came was in his early 40's... feeling bad the kids were getting older... then it passed..

Then there is ME... mine was a doozy...I think the earth shook...My Mid life crisis...It was ALL SEXUAL.. I didn't care to go dancing with Gf's , or get a degree or anything like that, I just wanted to do everything I felt WE missed (in the bedroom)...and out of the bedroom... this position, that position...we were so vanilla before! I was thinking "what in the H was wrong with us -all those yrs!"... 

But in all of that.. It wasn't about what *I* missed, but *WE* missed... he was having a hard time keeping up with my passion & insatiable sex drive..(God bless Viagra!).... but as always...he was the MAN.... there for me in my time of need...and during this too...he did all he could.. and made it the greatest rush of our marriage.. Oh we had some fights along the way....we got a little WILD visiting a Strip Club during that phase.. (anything to turn him on was helping me out!).... a lot of jokes how I was going to kill him with sex .. but he was still .... it's funny to look back upon now.

I guess my point is..a couple doesn't have to fall into Apathy.. if the love is there, the foundation strong enough, shake it up ! Get creative.. I was planning Romantic vacations, something we neglected for the 1st 19 yrs..it was always "family, family, family"... I just wanted to get away from the kids during that......our spouses attitude is huge in these things.. we had so much to be grateful for..


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

Hortensia said:


> Don't get married unless you're 101% ready. That can be at any age, but later going around resentful that you missed your wild age, makes waiting a wiser choice. 30's would be a mature age to start a family in my opinion.


I think this a big part of why marriage is falling out of favor.

Nobody is ever ready for marriage. Nobody knows what it is like to be married until they have been married. (Same with children.)

More importantly, marriage changes people. Marriages fail when people refuse to adapt to make the marriage work.

The problem is that people have been told that marriage is something you prepare for, that you must find the right person (your "soul mate") and then if everything does not go exactly right it must be that you chose wrong. Divorce fixes that.

Instead, people need to realize that marriage is something you learn on the job. If there is any preparation it is to be ready to change and adapt to make it work.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

marduk said:


> I know many guys that got married young, had kids early, freak out at 40, buy the motorbike or hot car, start chasing younger women, end up losing everything and sitting alone at the end of the bar cursing life and living in permanent Fear Of Missing Out.


I got married young, but we didn't rush to have kids. I didn't freak out at 40, but my marriage was an empty, joyless shell so I ended it a few years later. Rather than chase younger women, I dated looking for a serious GOOD relationship, and found my ideal partner (who happens to be younger). I'm happier than I've ever been, and missing out on nothing.

There ARE happy endings!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Millennials say no to marriage*



> There ARE happy endings!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Ah, Deejo, not all is gloom and doom! Even in MA - which is where my new relationship began.

Worst case, go buy yourself a Happy Ending at Friendly's, and smile!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think that when we adjust for gay marriage being possible now in most states (and all states will join those numbers soon), we might see those projections about the future of marriage change.

Personally, I don't care about marriage itself, even though I love being married. I love MY marriage, but not being religious, the institution of marriage means literally nothing to me and I've often wondered why so many people do it since more than half of all marriages end in divorce.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

A lot of good viewpoints here, I think.

Personally, I believe it's a fallacy to think anyone, regardless of age, worldly/life experiences, maturity, etc, can be "ready" for marriage if they've never been married before. It's just too big IMO, too long lasting, too wide in scope to be ready for it.

Like Ladymisato said, it's more on the job training, more two people learning to gel and become a team IMO.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

(squints really hard)


...Dave???? Is that you??!!


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

Yes.

I've come back from my meditation in the mountains.

I have many promises to keep,
And many throats to punch before I sleep.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

we need to get the band back together! (where's Odaat?)


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

Try New Orleans


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## ElCanario (Nov 11, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> That's not true. Plenty of people want to get married, even ones it isn't denied to.
> 
> Like Chris Rock says, "Gay people got a right to be as miserable as everybody else."


I was saying that long before Chris was.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Millennials say no to marriage*



Married but Happy said:


> Ah, Deejo, not all is gloom and doom! Even in MA - which is where my new relationship began.
> 
> Worst case, go buy yourself a Happy Ending at Friendly's, and smile!


I just wanted to use that gif. Cracks me up.

But your Mass commentary and the bit about the Friendly's Happy Ending Sundae is hysterical.

I do believe in happy endings. And very happy for you.


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