# Quid Pro Quo Sex



## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

I feel like many times when I have sex with my wife of almost 20 years there's an element of needing to do something or allow her to do something in exchange, is this normal?

Like I'll ask her if she want to have sex that night. She'll agree. Then as the moment approaches she'll mention that she wants to buy something, or get a massage or something else. I say yes, and then we have sex. I would agree with it anyway usually but she tends to ask right before sex so I pretty much have to agree or else there'll be problems.

It may be related to the fact that sex is not that important to her. She's focused on the kids, comes from a culture/country where it seems sex is not important for married women with kids; she doesn't need it (according to her), although when we do do it she enjoys it. It seems that she's doing it more out of an obligation to the marriage than out of self-interest.

Is this common for couples in 40s and older?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

It's not common for wives of any age to exchange sex for things.

It sounds like a learned behavior on her part.


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

3 things pop to mind:

1) Gifts is her love language. Of the 5 Love Languages, Gifts is her thing and she's grabbing a little while giving a little. This is not necessarily a good or bad thing, it's just how she's wired. You might seek other ways to satiate this love language.

2) She's just a little shrewd. Gifts aren't her love language. She loves you, she likes sex with you, and she'll give it up either way, but she's more detached about sex in a way she's just "using" your desire for sex to cement something she wants. Sex to her is not the same as it is to you, but she's not coming at it with evil intentions.

3) She weaponized sex. She's getting what she wants before giving it up. If you were to say "no" to what she wants, she'll close her legs. Houston, we have a real problem here.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I'd guess she comes from a culture where sex is not to be enjoyed by women, but is to be used as a bargaining chip. There are a number of such cultures out there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

As I was reading your post I thought, "damn, so that's how I can get him to agree to my latest home improvement request! I've been doing it wrong all these years! So stupid!" Thanks!

I agree with 4x4 and think maybe gifts are her love language? But you're not exactly giving her gifts, at least not the way I think of gifts; they're a tangible surprise, something you hand to her...

I wonder if your wife realizes she is using sex as a manipulation tool and if she does realize, is she okay with this? Does she feel that sex between a husband and wife should be transactional? 

Is your wife a woman who keeps score, tit for tat kind of thing?

To answer your question, no, transactional sex is not the "right way" to conduct a healthy marriage. But it is a viable bargaining tool for women from cultures where women have very little power. Sex as a bargaining tool is how women had any kind of power in relationships historically. 

It would be interesting to have that conversation with her, and discover if she feels she doesn't have equal power in the relationship. While in reality she may have all the power, but I think if she comes from a culture in which women are still reaching for equality, this may be a vestige from how she was raised and she will need to consciously be aware and consciously decide to view sex differently.

I hope you post more on the conversation I hope you have with your wife. It will be interesting to see what her take is.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

"A new tv? He!! no, we don't need a new tv. Now come over here and get naked!"


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

Women like to be courted. Usually men quit doing this after they are married. Some wives discover that they can achieve some semblance of courtship with the sort of requests that you describe.

Others take it much, much further.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Perhaps you could cross your fingers when you say yes, that way it wouldn't count?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

That's a good idea Wysh?

Next time OP wants to have sex, he write a note on a card and seals it in the envelope. After they have sex he lets her open it. And it says, "actually no, just wanted to get laid."


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ladymisato said:


> Women like to be courted. Usually men quit doing this after they are married. Some wives discover that they can achieve some semblance of courtship with the sort of requests that you describe.
> 
> Others take it much, much further.


Doing this occasionally can be fun, but if it's all the time it's a problem.

It's hard not to think that she figures she can get something out of you for giving you some sex and it's not like you don't already do enough...


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

treyvion said:


> Doing this occasionally can be fun, but if it's all the time it's a problem.
> 
> It's hard not to think that she figures she can get something out of you for giving you some sex and it's not like you don't already do enough...


Of course, much depends on what the husband is already doing but even in the case where the husband is providing the income and the wife is stay-at-home, she is still a woman and still enjoys being courted.

Where's the problem?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ladymisato said:


> Of course, much depends on what the husband is already doing but even in the case where the husband is providing the income and the wife is stay-at-home, she is still a woman and still enjoys being courted.
> 
> Where's the problem?


Where it's always in exchange for something. That cheapens it.

If a wife is stay at home and she does her part and a man does his part, add a little bit of romance ontop and that should be enough. It shouldn't always be goods and money exchanged to have sex. That wouldn't feel good.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

treyvion said:


> Where it's always in exchange for something. That cheapens it.


I agree that an "exchange" is not the ideal formulation, that was the OP's choice. That's why I described it in terms of courting.



> If a wife is stay at home and she does her part and a man does his part, add a little bit of romance ontop and that should be enough. It shouldn't always be goods and money exchanged to have sex. That wouldn't feel good.


"Should be enough" is the kind of thing that leads to divorce. In fact, most marriages have a terrible romance deficit and often things are let go so long that resentment builds to the point of hatred.

So, what is the problem with a wife expecting romance and courtship from her husband?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

ladymisato said:


> I agree that an "exchange" is not the ideal formulation, that was the OP's choice. That's why I described it in terms of courting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


has to be a balance EXPECTING is not good.

whats wrong with the husband EXPECTING unsolicited sex from his wife?


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> That's a good idea Wysh?
> 
> Next time OP wants to have sex, he write a note on a card and seals it in the envelope. After they have sex he lets her open it. And it says, "actually no, just wanted to get laid."


Thanks Pink, nearly spit my coffee out. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> has to be a balance EXPECTING is not good.
> 
> whats wrong with the husband EXPECTING unsolicited sex from his wife?


I think that's exactly the problem that courtship solves and which the OP's wife is probably solving in her own crude way. Expectation kills romance and, ironically, often kills the wife's desire for sex leading to a vicious cycle of resentment.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

ladymisato said:


> I think that's exactly the problem that courtship solves and which the OP's wife is probably solving in her own crude way. Expectation kills romance and, ironically, often kills the wife's desire for sex leading to a vicious cycle of resentment.


no I think the op wife was never really into him and settled for safe and security and along the way has used sex to her advantage.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> no I think the op wife was never really into him and settled for safe and security and along the way has used sex to her advantage.


Perhaps, but that's very speculative.

I think it's more likely that the romance in their marriage has deteriorated.

OP mentions kids a couple times and that implies, to me, that sex was different before kids. Kids change marriage a lot!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

ladymisato said:


> Perhaps, but that's very speculative.
> 
> I think it's more likely that the romance in their marriage has deteriorated.
> 
> OP mentions kids a couple times and that implies, to me, that sex was different before kids. Kids change marriage a lot!


just as speculative!


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

"What is tat? How do I get it? And how do I exchange it for the other thing?"

Dennis Miller


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

It could be a harmless tick.

Or, it could be a problem. 

If everything else is okay, let it slide.

Maybe say "of course, you can have that honey. You don't have to have sex with me to get that. But, I do LOVE the sex".

I think too many guys demand that their wives WANT sex as much as they do. While that would be nice, I don't why it's required. Should men be required to want to talk about their wife's feelings as much as the wife does?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

bravo29 said:


> Like I'll ask her if she want to have sex that night. She'll agree. Then as the moment approaches *she'll mention that she wants to buy something, or get a massage or something else*. I say yes, and then we have sex. I would agree with it anyway usually but she tends to ask right before sex so I pretty much have to agree or else there'll be problems.


Why do you need to agree for her to get a massage or buy something? Massages are less expensive than getting her hair done, so I'm not sure why it's up to you to have to agree to before she gets one. 

Or is she asking YOU to give her a massage? Do you ever give her one without her having to ask?

Do you normally not agree to things she wants unless there is sex involved? Why does she need your permission? Does she need your permission to buy a pair of shoes or other things?


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

norajane said:


> Why do you need to agree for her to get a massage or buy something? Massages are less expensive than getting her hair done, so I'm not sure why it's up to you to have to agree to before she gets one.


It would also involve me watching the kids while she's gone so she's letting me know that I'll need to watch the kids at such and such time. 



norajane said:


> Do you ever give her one without her having to ask?


I used to but she never recipricated nor was thankful so I stopped. For example, she wouldn't say, "Oooh that feels SO good thanks!" She was very passive receiving.



norajane said:


> Do you normally not agree to things she wants unless there is sex involved? Why does she need your permission? Does she need your permission to buy a pair of shoes or other things?


I don't normally not agree anyway. She wouldn't need permission anyway for small purchases like shoes. For larger purchases we would let each other know out of common courtesy.

Also, I wasn't clear, it doesn't always a monetary thing. I could be me making dinner, checking her essays (she goes to college) part time or something like that. I would and do do these things anyway. It's not a case of me refusing at other times.


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> If everything else is okay, let it slide.


Everything else is definitely not ok, but it's not terrible either so I just let it go. I mean, I would agree anyway, so no harm done I suppose.



Buddy400 said:


> Maybe say "of course, you can have that honey. You don't have to have sex with me to get that. But, I do LOVE the sex".


True, that's reasonable thanks.



Buddy400 said:


> I think too many guys demand that their wives WANT sex as much as they do. While that would be nice, I don't why it's required. Should men be required to want to talk about their wife's feelings as much as the wife does?


Right, I'm definitely not demanding. It's more like me meekly requesting hoping that she'll agree. I have to tread carefully as I don't want to come across as someone who is only after sex.


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

ladymisato said:


> I think it's more likely that the romance in their marriage has deteriorated.
> 
> OP mentions kids a couple times and that implies, to me, that sex was different before kids. Kids change marriage a lot!


Sex before marriage was much more frequent. In terms of romance, there was more which I think is expected but in terms of non-sexual intimacy there was very little on her end due to cultural and personal issues with her.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

bravo29 said:


> Also, I wasn't clear, it doesn't always a monetary thing. I could be me making dinner, checking her essays (she goes to college) part time or something like that. *I would and do do these things anyway. It's not a case of me refusing at other times.*


So if these things are things you would do and do anyway, how it is "tit for tat"? 

She must also mention all these things at other times, too, not just when you're getting ready for bed/sex.

I don't see the manipulation.


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

ladymisato said:


> So, what is the problem with a wife expecting romance and courtship from her husband?


In general I agree but in her case there is basically no non-sexual intimacy. Her life seems to resolve around the kids and college and anything to help with that is what she's looking for not romance.

As an example, our 1st grader still sleeps in our bed at night. If the kid were to sleep in their own bed it wouldn't change a thing. Zero intimacy, sexual or not. Completely natural to her to be like that.

Sex is something that is scheduled ahead of time, before she showers.


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> As I was reading your post I thought, "damn, so that's how I can get him to agree to my latest home improvement request! I've been doing it wrong all these years! So stupid!" Thanks!






Anon Pink said:


> I agree with 4x4 and think maybe gifts are her love language? But you're not exactly giving her gifts, at least not the way I think of gifts; they're a tangible surprise, something you hand to her...


Not only tangible stuff, could be making dinner, etc. We went to a couples counselor a couple of years ago and went through the love language thing. She thought she was gifts but tunred out to be something else. Forgot which one.



Anon Pink said:


> I wonder if your wife realizes she is using sex as a manipulation tool and if she does realize, is she okay with this? Does she feel that sex between a husband and wife should be transactional?


I don't think she realizes this.



Anon Pink said:


> Is your wife a woman who keeps score, tit for tat kind of thing?


I think so.



Anon Pink said:


> To answer your question, no, transactional sex is not the "right way" to conduct a healthy marriage. But it is a viable bargaining tool for women from cultures where women have very little power. Sex as a bargaining tool is how women had any kind of power in relationships historically.


Interesting, makes sense. There are so many other issues involved I don't know where to start.


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

4x4 said:


> 2) She's just a little shrewd. Gifts aren't her love language. She loves you, she likes sex with you, and she'll give it up either way, but she's more detached about sex in a way she's just "using" your desire for sex to cement something she wants. Sex to her is not the same as it is to you, but she's not coming at it with evil intentions.


I think this is closest. Thanks.


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

norajane said:


> So if these things are things you would do and do anyway, how it is "tit for tat"?
> 
> She must also mention all these things at other times, too, not just when you're getting ready for bed/sex.
> 
> I don't see the manipulation.


I see what you're saying but I get an uncomfortable feeling when it happens. It seems manipulative to me. Sometimes she'll wait to ask specifically for times like this if it's something she really wants.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

bravo29 said:


> In general I agree but in her case there is basically no non-sexual intimacy. Her life seems to resolve around the kids and college and anything to help with that is what she's looking for not romance.


You could be right, of course, but I think you need to consider the possibility that it is more complicated than you are currently thinking. You're looking for non-sexual intimacy from her as an indicator of an interest in romance.

But if she is feeling overwhelmed by her responsibilities at home she may feel too tired, or even too resentful, to feel the romance. Having you do things for her at least provides her with some minimal reassurance that you care. Absent that, she throws herself into caring for the kids.

You can test what I say by doing things for her more spontaneously and see how she reacts. Try this for a month or so and you might find that she is more affectionate and intimate.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

bravo29 said:


> I used to but she never recipricated nor was thankful so I stopped. For example, she wouldn't say, "Oooh that feels SO good thanks!" She was very passive receiving.


Did this change with kids or was she always passive in your marriage?


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

ladymisato said:


> Women like to be courted. Usually men quit doing this after they are married. Some wives discover that they can achieve some semblance of courtship with the sort of requests that you describe.
> 
> Others take it much, much further.


There are 2 sides to courtship. The female side includes: flirting, makeup, jewelry, diet/exercise, dressing sexy. I would say that women are just as likely as men to quit doing these courtship things after marriage.

Sounds like you condone her Quid Pro Sex as a way to ensure he keeps up some courtship.
So then what "trick" should he play to persuade *her* courtship?

I have seen alot of divorces where, immediately afterwards, both the man and woman suddenly "remember" how to play their respective sides of the courtship game. Because the female side is so visible, this is even more obvious than the man.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

bravo29 said:


> In terms of romance, there was more which I think is expected but in terms of non-sexual intimacy there was very little on her end due to cultural and personal issues with her.


Does she have trauma in her history?


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

buy some colorful plastic beads, and exchange them for sex. Wampum!


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Rip a page from the radical feminists themselves who ascribe power as the driver for all relationships. She has the power. So you can refuse once in a while and see what happens, or can negotiate or you can use to your own advantage with a list of demands she might not ordinarily be open to w/o a prize of some sort.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

tommyr said:


> There are 2 sides to courtship. The female side includes: flirting, makeup, jewelry, diet/exercise, dressing sexy. I would say that women are just as likely as men to quit doing these courtship things after marriage.
> 
> Sounds like you condone her Quid Pro Sex as a way to ensure he keeps up some courtship.
> So then what "trick" should he play to persuade *her* courtship?
> ...


Obviously it would be much better if she where playing her part. But if she has given up on romance she may not even see the point in trying. If he plays his part there is a good chance she may decide to play hers. His "trick", then, is to unilaterally play his part.


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

ladymisato said:


> But if she is feeling overwhelmed by her responsibilities at home she may feel too tired, or even too resentful, to feel the romance.


Well, she definitely feels overwhelmed. Based on our visits to the counselor it became evident that she gets overwhelmed easily. Her culture is focused on perfection. The counselor tried to let her know that she doesn't have to be perfect but it didn't really work.

She is taking 2 classes at college and spends a LOT of time studying. While the kids are at school, after dinner, till late at night etc. If it were me I would spend x number of hours studying, do my best and leave it at that.



ladymisato said:


> Having you do things for her at least provides her with some minimal reassurance that you care. Absent that, she throws herself into caring for the kids.
> 
> You can test what I say by doing things for her more spontaneously and see how she reacts. Try this for a month or so and you might find that she is more affectionate and intimate.


Do what for example? I work full time, give my kid a shower every night, do the dishes when she makes dinner. I play (or study) with the kids, let her go study whenever she wants.


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

ladymisato said:


> Did this change with kids or was she always passive in your marriage?


In retrospect she was always like that.


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

Thor said:


> Does she have trauma in her history?


No trauma but she did have a long term affair with her married boss when she started working after high school. (She never went to college.) This happened when she was around 19 I think in her country (not here) and lasted until right before I met her over there I think. In that country it's not uncommon for that to happen I think. She doesn't like to talk about that at all.


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

ladymisato said:


> Obviously it would be much better if she where playing her part. But if she has given up on romance she may not even see the point in trying. If he plays his part there is a good chance she may decide to play hers. His "trick", then, is to unilaterally play his part.


I don't think she was ever particularly romantic. Her culture is one where you don't show physical affection in public etc. Even when the counselor asked us to show affection it was very stilted, not natural at all.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> Rip a page from the radical feminists themselves who ascribe power as the driver for all relationships. She has the power. So you can refuse once in a while and see what happens, or can negotiate or you can use to your own advantage with a list of demands she might not ordinarily be open to w/o a prize of some sort.


With someone like this he can be aware of it and do power plays of his own.

However it devolves into a pissing match where at the end, you are with someone who doesn't really care about you you help yourself, she helps herself and you do very little to none at all for each other. The worst enemy is right there under the same roof you come to.


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

As a side note, sex is quite boring. In the past I've bought her lingerie. Unless I specifically request her to wear it she will not. She'll bring the condom and take off her clothes as if she were doing a chore to tick off. I tell her hot she looks etc. I even bought myself tight fitting underwear and wore it once. Not a word from her.

Despite being in great shape thanks to sports I get no response from her. She stopped going to the gym due to being overwhelmed with other things and now people think she's pregnant. Despite that I tell her how hot she is. Is that ironic?

I've asked her to watch porn with me and she refuses, has no interest in that either. And so on...


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

bravo29 said:


> No trauma but she did have a long term affair with her married boss when she started working after high school. (She never went to college.) This happened when she was around 19 I think in her country (not here) and lasted until right before I met her over there I think. In that country it's not uncommon for that to happen I think. She doesn't like to talk about that at all.


I don't think there is anything broken in her which can be fixed. She is just being who she is. She is revealing her true belief system about relationships and sex. To her sex is a commodity which is fair game to trade upon within a relationship.

I think the best you can do is break her of the habit of trading, just as you break a dog of a bad habit. Interrupt the behavior and indicate it is not acceptable. I think I would start by telling her in a non-emotional way the next time she does it that your sex is not for sale, and stop the sex encounter. Don't do it with anger, just matter-of-fact. You could tell her that you feel degraded or manipulated by it.

The best place to talk about something like this is outside the bedroom. I would approach it along the lines of this barter for sex does not fit with your paradigm of what sex is within a loving marriage. You aren't wanting to "get something", which means that you aren't willing to exchange something else of value in order to procure access to her body. Instead, you are wanting to connect and share something with her, where the intimacy is what is being exchanged.

She may be able to learn and grow by you providing information to her, as well as establishing boundaries.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Your posts really do come across as if she has some kind of dysfunctional view of sex based in childhood, which is why I asked about trauma. Women like sex. Women like romance, and they enjoy getting attention from their husband. You describe her as someone who has no interest but is willing to put up with some sex once in a while. She doesn't even seem to do much when you do have sex.

It doesn't sound like classic low desire. Maybe it is just cultural, or maybe she grew up in a family and circumstances where women traded sex for necessities. Do you think her affair with her boss was in trade for the job?


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

bravo29 said:


> I don't think she was ever particularly romantic. Her culture is one where you don't show physical affection in public etc. Even when the counselor asked us to show affection it was very stilted, not natural at all.


I think you need to adopt the role of a teacher, then. Talk to your MC/IC about this and look for books to read. That's a lot on your shoulders, I know, but she is your wife. Don't just give up on her.



bravo29 said:


> Well, she definitely feels overwhelmed. Based on our visits to the counselor it became evident that she gets overwhelmed easily. Her culture is focused on perfection. The counselor tried to let her know that she doesn't have to be perfect but it didn't really work.
> 
> She is taking 2 classes at college and spends a LOT of time studying. While the kids are at school, after dinner, till late at night etc. If it were me I would spend x number of hours studying, do my best and leave it at that.


Almost certainly you can help here too. It will take a long time, perhaps your lifetime, but I think you can realize some results just by expressing how much she means to you as she is. That said, this will be difficult.



> Do what for example? I work full time, give my kid a shower every night, do the dishes when she makes dinner. I play (or study) with the kids, let her go study whenever she wants.


Well, that's a lot, I'll admit. Look for other things that you could do that would really impact her sense of being overwhelmed. But, as noted above, it might require changing her attitude.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

treyvion said:


> With someone like this he can be aware of it and do power plays of his own.
> 
> However it devolves into a pissing match where at the end, you are with someone who doesn't really care about you you help yourself, she helps herself and you do very little to none at all for each other. The worst enemy is right there under the same roof you come to.


Maybe yes maybe no. It depends on how invested your partner is in the first place. Some people really ARE that shallow and mercenary.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> Maybe yes maybe no. It depends on how invested your partner is in the first place. Some people really ARE that shallow and mercenary.


That's true. I was just saying for a woman who hates men and doesn't trust them and a man who hates women and doesn't trust them, sometimes they are a match made in heaven, pushing each others competitive drives and making sure they run a air tight operation.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

bravo29 said:


> As a side note, sex is quite boring. In the past I've bought her lingerie. Unless I specifically request her to wear it she will not. She'll bring the condom and take off her clothes as if she were doing a chore to tick off. I tell her hot she looks etc. I even bought myself tight fitting underwear and wore it once. Not a word from her.
> 
> Despite being in great shape thanks to sports I get no response from her. She stopped going to the gym due to being overwhelmed with other things and now people think she's pregnant. Despite that I tell her how hot she is. Is that ironic?
> 
> I've asked her to watch porn with me and she refuses, has no interest in that either. And so on...


Get that type of attention from other females without cheating. Sometimes it helps someone like your wife to hold onto their man.

I know, I know, I know. You think it would be better if you didn't have to do all this, that she didn't run such a high wall on you and wanted to do it without being provoked.

Check It out, being hot to the opposite sex and some light social validation can even help GOOD relationships have more heat and attraction in them.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Wow 20 years of let's make a deal the marriage version home game.

So long as you are ok with this type of interaction no harm I suppose. 

But maybe you should ask for some extra terms. Maybe ask what a trip to Amsterdam will get you


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

bravo29 said:


> We went to a couples counselor a couple of years ago and went through the love language thing. She thought she was gifts but tunred out to be something else. Forgot which one.


This doesn't sound good. Maybe you should ask her to remind you and then you should spend sometime 'speaking' her love language.


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

ladymisato said:


> Well, that's a lot, I'll admit. Look for other things that you could do that would really impact her sense of being overwhelmed. But, as noted above, it might require changing her attitude.


I always make homemade waffles for the family with fresh squeezed orange juice and home brewed tea on Sundays. That's after a visit to the farmer's market to buy fruits and vegetables for the week. This is now taken for granted that I do this. So much so that when I was on a different errand last Sunday morning and came back at 10am nobody had eaten as they were waiting for me to make breakfast.

I also take the kids out on day-long trips by myself a couple of days per month so she can have time by herself to study.

She has always been overwhelmed with life. No matter what I do it'll be something else with her.

Today she was super upset because I let my kid's teacher teach my kid at the dining room. The whole house was clean but that wasn't enough for her. She was furious because she wanted to tidy up first and expected her to teach outside on the patio. The house was clean!


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

SadSamIAm said:


> This doesn't sound good. Maybe you should ask her to remind you and then you should spend sometime 'speaking' her love language.


I believe it's words of affirmation and service. Every day at dinner I thank her for dinner. I thank her for other things as well. Should I thank her for doing the laundry?

For service, I already do a lot for her. Do I do still more for her?


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

Thor said:


> Women like sex.


I'm pretty sure based on talks with others, married women with kids from this culture do not like sex in general. It most certainly is not a priority.



Thor said:


> Women like romance, and they enjoy getting attention from their husband. You describe her as someone who has no interest but is willing to put up with some sex once in a while. She doesn't even seem to do much when you do have sex.


It is a couple of times per week and she does orgasm some times so that's the good part.



Thor said:


> It doesn't sound like classic low desire. Maybe it is just cultural, or maybe she grew up in a family and circumstances where women traded sex for necessities. Do you think her affair with her boss was in trade for the job?


I think it's culture and personal circumstances, you're right. About the affair, if I had to guess (since I don't know), I would say she started the job as a naive young woman and after a year her older married boss took advantage of her. In return did she get anything? Maybe he went easy on her at her job? Maybe she had slightly more priority when taking vacation days or something? I don't know but that would be my guess.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

bravo29 said:


> She has always been overwhelmed with life. No matter what I do it'll be something else with her.


I commend you for all that you are doing to help ease her situation but you are probably right that these are not helping with the core issue. You need to focus there, you need to work with her (without nagging) about rethinking her approach to life. Be patient, perhaps read more and offer gentle guidance when she seems most receptive.

Is there any chance of her going to professional counseling? (That might seem like an added burden but could pay off in the long run.)

But don't underestimate the value of showing you care.


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## bravo29 (Sep 7, 2014)

ladymisato said:


> Is there any chance of her going to professional counseling? (That might seem like an added burden but could pay off in the long run.)


We went together a couple of years ago until a few months ago. Before that she was 10 times worse. I was on the verge of splitting up before then. She's better than before. But she said she doesn't want to go anymore because she doesn't like me venting about her all the time at the sessions.

It's tolerable now, indeed we do have sex a couple of times per week, but there is a complete lack of emotional intimacy which I don't think is fixable. Like the turtle and the scorpion story. It's in her nature.

Thanks for your advice.


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