# Book Review - Why Women Have Sex



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I recently stumbled upon a new book that is based on academic research on female sexuality. It is "Why Women Have Sex" by Cindy Meston Ph. D., and David Buss Ph. D.

My motivation for reading it is to hopefully gain a better understanding into some of the dynamics for intimacy in my marriage. I would say that my wife and I have a regular intimacy, but I've never fully understood or appreciated the underlying dynamics for our differences in desire over the progression of time. While this book is probably not written for that purpose, I thought it would be helpful to discuss my thoughts here as it may help provide insight and spur thought for others.

I have gotten through the first chapter of the book and it discusses the social dynamics of sexuality of desire. Here is one of the book's claim that is backed up by research:



Women find men more attractive that are mostly in close proximity with other women. By contrast women find men that are mostly in close proximity to other men to be less attractive.

I know when I met my wife in college that I had a habit of making many female friends. All of the friendships were based on my physical attraction to them and the hopes of one friendship might develop into something more. I was somewhat of a nonexclusive friend-zone flirt. I was very good at making friends with any attractive woman I was interested in getting closer to. I also understood that these relationships likely had no romantic prospects, but in the meantime I genuinely enjoyed these friendships. As a result I was very comfortable being around and talking to women that I found very attractive which likely helped my self confidence once the opportunity for romance presented itself.

Another valuable experience was that some of these friendships did become sexual. This allowed me to understand exactly what type of friendship I was looking for in terms long term of compatibility before I met my wife. Specifically I wanted someone with a clear vision of what they wanted in life career wise and I wanted for that vision to compliment my vision. When I met my wife, she was someone that desired a career that seemed like we should always compliment one another. Any job opportunity for me would give her networking opportunities to advance her career and vice versa. This prerequisite has actually served me very well in life... however...

...once my wife and I got serious, she specifically asked me to END my friendships with anyone I found attractive. She did not like walking across campus and having some women with long curly red hair come up to me and ask if I could hang out later as we had done many times before. She did not like attractive women ask me to accompany them to events on campus so that they didn't have to walk alone in the evening. At some point I acknowledged that perhaps these friendships were based on these women being attractive and that I enjoyed being flirtatious even them. I eventually let go of those types of friends through attrition of not being available to hang out or go to events with them.

I would describe this point in the relationship with my wife to be one in which she was very motivated. Here I am decades later and the majority of my friendships are men. An old friend from high school, a relative, or the husband of one of my wife's female friends. 

There have been times I get flirtatious with women here and there, and my wife does not like it one bit. If this is one of her friends, she will often chose logistics that exclude me. Like going out for breakfast of coffee with her female friends while I am busy with work.

I also find it interesting that I happen to have cousins that are very attractive, but I have zero romantic interest whatsoever. So if my sister invites me to go to an event that includes one of my female cousins, my wife often objects and asks me not to go. My wife insists that I am likely attracted to my cousin and that it is not OK, which I have always found hilarious.

So this book gets into what is called "mate guarding" which is when a woman's desire is triggered by a perceived need for her to mark her territory. The theory is that this satisfies a mate and makes him less likely to look at other women.

A rather interesting dynamic to reflect upon in my life. I'll continue to share as I continue reading.

Regards,
Badsanta


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I think there are probably some caveats and devil in the details to your assumptions.

The is likely a big difference between between a man that happens to be in the company of women that do not find him attractive and are shunning his advances (woman can see this many miles away through the fog in the dark) VS see women who are attracted to him all vying for his attention ( which women can also see miles away through the fog)

One will increase their attraction, the other will insure he never gets a date. 

I suspect that it’s not really seeing a man with women that is catching their eye but rather the reaction of the women themselves towards the man. I’m betting they are playing off of the cues and signals and signs of the other women more than they are the guy with the women.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I think that is one of the premises in the Married Man Sex Life Primer. If your wife thinks other women are attracted to you it increases her attraction. So the strategy is to improve yourself and make yourself more attractive to everyone, which will hopefully include your wife. It seems to be human nature to want what someone else has. If someone else wants it, it must have value. An average to below average looking man won't get any female attention while alone, but put a pretty woman on his arm and all the other women wonder what has he got that attracts her.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

In the book "What do women want?"

There was some research into women finding their men more attractive when others were attracted to them.

One instance had a very normal wife losing attraction for her husband but not love.

She happened to come to a game he was coaching late and had the chance to see him doing what he was good at and seeing others appreciate him including other women. It opened her eyes and her attraction for her husband was right back.

I think it's healthy to take a step back and view your mate interacting without you once in a while and seeing how others appreciate them.

It's happened to me more than once with Mrs. C.

There is probably a section of women that get more attracted to a man who has women around him but there are also groups that it isn't a thing for.

I think there is a good sized group of women that find men attractive that have their own interests and seem to be accomplishing goals.


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

In my experience dating too many women at the same time doesn't work as well as one would like. Just sayin'.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

If a man I knew spent all his time with women I would think that was odd.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Benbutton said:


> In my experience dating too many women at the same time doesn't work as well as one would like. Just sayin'.


It’s not necessarily about ‘dating’ multiple women per se (although that can have its advantages as well), but being in the company of and apparent acceptance of other women.


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> It’s not necessarily about ‘dating’ multiple women per se (although that can have its advantages as well), but being in the company of and apparent acceptance of other women.


I guess. I've always worked in a male dominated field and in my youth when hanging out with the guys at bars I never had a problem attracting women. I think a big part of that was that I tend to be an extroverted clown that gets along well with others. Women tend to notice that as well - you know, the so called social butterfly, life of the party kind of thing that can hold conversations and make people laugh while laughing at the same time.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

badsanta said:


> I recently stumbled upon a new book that is based on academic research on female sexuality. It is "Why Women Have Sex" by Cindy Meston Ph. D., and David Buss Ph. D.
> 
> My motivation for reading it is to hopefully gain a better understanding into some of the dynamics for intimacy in my marriage. I would say that my wife and I have a regular intimacy, but I've never fully understood or appreciated the underlying dynamics for our differences in desire over the progression of time. While this book is probably not written for that purpose, I thought it would be helpful to discuss my thoughts here as it may help provide insight and spur thought for others.
> 
> ...


One of my ex-boyfriends was real into women mate guarding him. He got a real ego boost off of that I think.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Bad Santa;

This is interesting, please share what you learn from the other chapters.

I think that the "mate guarding" is a real thing. During the Sex Therapy sessions that saved my marriage, my wife confessed that one of her female coworkers after a company party my wife an I attended complemented my wife on the nice looking husband she had. My wife revealed this when the ST told her that if we divorced, I would probably not have a problem finding a woman who would love me. In fact the ST told my wife that I was a good catch. My wife responded with the story and said she understood that if we divorced and I wanted to remarry, I probably could. So I believe that spouses do such mental calculations.

I am really not a fan of the whole red pill concept. However, I do wonder if an occasional friend, who is female, might not remind a wife to make sure she has sex with her husband. I really believe that many marriages are destroyed by opposite sex friends, sliding down a slippery slope into either EA's or PA's and that is something that I feel should be avoided in Marriage. Still the Billy Grahm (or Mike Pence) "I will not have a meal with a member of the opposite sex without my wife present, seems a bit extreme.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> I am really not a fan of the whole red pill concept. However, I do wonder if an occasional friend, who is female, might not remind a wife to make sure she has sex with her husband. I* really believe that many marriages are destroyed by opposite sex friends, sliding down a slippery slope into either EA's or PA's and that is something that I feel should be avoided in Marriage*. Still the Billy Grahm (or Mike Pence) "I will not have a meal with a member of the opposite sex without my wife present, seems a bit extreme.


I am not fan of opposite-sex "friends". Too often the "friend" has interests that aren't friendly for the marriage. Wife and I associate with married couples, neither of us have opposite sex friends. The wife has never needed to be reminded to take care of business. She has always minded the store very attentively.

FWIW, have always applied the Pence rule. Extreme maybe, but prevents even appearance of inappropriate behavior.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I think it's healthy to take a step back and *view your mate interacting without you once in a while and seeing how others appreciate them.*


Bingo!!! For me, it's not about how much other women desire my partner, especially if all that is considered is superficial. 

The desire comes from seeing the admiration of my partner's ability, passion, or purpose from peers, community, social group, etc. 



Diana7 said:


> If a man I knew spent all his time with women I would think that was odd.


Agreed. Personally, I have always been attracted to the lone wolf. I have no idea why. Guys with female friends automatically go into the friend zone bucket regardless how attractive they are otherwise.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

it is an interesting dilemma.
your wife wants you to not hang around other sexy women.
but then your wife's libido decreases, presumably.
and then, presumably, your at home sexual frequency declines?

sounds like a case of she tells you one thing, but her body wants another thing entirely...she WANTS to compete for your attention, and gets a sexual thrill from winning that competition. 
maybe you need to do what her body needs, rather than what her rational mind requests?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> it is an interesting dilemma.
> your wife wants you to not hang around other sexy women.
> but then your wife's libido decreases, presumably.
> and then, presumably, your at home sexual frequency declines?
> ...


It is a fine line to walk.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@badsanta does the book mention anything about mystery and excitement? I know when I was married, my libido ebbed and flowed in direct correlation to how much effort my spouse put into wooing me with exciting activities. I don't think I'm special. You hear about couples having tons of sex when they go on romantic getaways. Just the change of venue is enough excitement to increase libido.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I have zero interest in a guy who surrounds himself with and flirts with other woman.

I consider such a man untrustworthy and it tanks any attractiveness he might havs held for me.

No interest here in being part of a harem or pick me dancing (as CL would say).


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> @badsanta does the book mention anything about mystery and excitement? I know when I was married, my libido ebbed and flowed in direct correlation to how much effort my spouse put into wooing me with exciting activities. I don't think I'm special. You hear about couples having tons of sex when they go on romantic getaways. Just the change of venue is enough excitement to increase libido.


I do imagine that topic will be covered at some point. I am enjoying this book, but I can be a slow reader! I was having a conversation with my wife and she agrees with everything in it so far. In the first chapter it also gets into smell a being something that can powerfully influence a woman's desire. My wife has always asked me to wear cologne but I have for the most part dismissed that. I might spray on some once in a great while, but she says I should do so more often and not with the same brand year after year. She would want me to pick something different. 

So as you mentioned a change of venue... for some a change of smell can also be effective. As a matter of fact, I once thought about this. You go to the beach and everything smells different and very pleasant. So a change of venue also has a significant change of smells. The smell of being at a certain location could very well trigger strong memories and feelings of desire. For me I do have a vivid memory of what the inside of my high school girlfriend's car smelled like (was very pleasant!), had that "new girlfriend car" smell that is so elusive. In college I had a girlfriend that would steal her roommate's lotion and use it on me (was a particular flowery smell). Occasionally I will be somewhere and get hit somehow with that scent and my mind instantly goes back to those nefarious moments in college. 

My wife does complain that she wants to travel more often and that she wants me to be in great shape to go hiking or walking around a downtown to explore new things. I do hesitate to get out, but each time I do my wife catches me saying, "we should have done this more often!" To which she kind of gets angry at me as if that is what she has been telling me all along. 

Another thing in the book that is weighted significantly for a woman to desire a man is a good sense of humor. Perhaps this is one of those magic ingredients needed to defuse stress and worrying thoughts in exchange for a smile and feeling good if someone can reliably get you to laugh. 

I am surprised this book hasn't been discussed here. But I imagine bookstores and the internet are fairly saturated on books and articles about sex, so an academic work on the topic likely slips through the cracks. I think this one goes as far as to do similar research with couples in a lab like Masters and Johnson conducted. If you goto the university website and the pages about the lab, there is a video that will give you a tour of the lab. They do have a room in which participants experience arousal privately and scientific means are used to collect data about various forms of erotic stimuli.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Lila said:


> @badsanta does the book mention anything about mystery and excitement? I know when I was married, my libido ebbed and flowed in direct correlation to how much effort my spouse put into wooing me with exciting activities. I don't think I'm special. You hear about couples having tons of sex when they go on romantic getaways. Just the change of venue is enough excitement to increase libido.


Vacation sex! Always fun, even if just to a nice hotel in town.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I have zero interest in a guy who surrounds himself with and flirts with other woman.
> 
> I consider such a man untrustworthy and it tanks any attractiveness he might havs held for me.
> 
> No interest here in being part of a harem or pick me dancing (as CL would say).


The book talks about how women do not like competition from other women, however it seems to plays an important role in determining the value of a mate and impacts desire. 

It is all about balance. The book says that women do not view high value mates that get too much attention from other women to be a viable mate, because he will not be faithful. Some attention from other women on the other hand does indicate that a male is considered safe to be around by women. Meanwhile if women avoid a certain man, then he tends to look creepy as a result. 

So I think it is fair to say that if a man walks into a bar and all the women scurry away from him, that you would likely do the same.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

This is old school stuff. I think some people are taking this too literal. Think of a night club where one guy is in the VIP section and he's chatting with the owner and women are stopping by to talk to them. Now look over at the guy standing with his back against the wall and holding his beer over his chest. Which one is more attractive?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Talker67 said:


> it is an interesting dilemma.
> your wife wants you to not hang around other sexy women.
> but then your wife's libido decreases, presumably.
> and then, presumably, your at home sexual frequency declines?
> ...


Reflecting on this topic, my son participates in a sport that requires one on one coaching. This sport lends itself for parents to join in to help with practice. I am the one that drives him and I always participate. One of my son's recent coaches was a young blond female that was rather flirtatious. My wife joined one of these coaching sessions and I'm just now realizing that the timing of that is associated with my wife having our son's coach changed for someone that had a different curriculum that would help to better motivate him. The new coach is a young man.

My wife never openly objected to the female coach other than being critical of her lesson plans for youth. My wife claimed she was better suited for coaching adults. So I may go back and take some lessons myself since I am an adult. Or I may just mention the idea to my wife to see what she says.

Being bad,
Badsanta


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

There’s a term for this idea of a woman finding a man attractive because he’s in the company of another/other attractive women, it’s called pre-selection.
When I lived with my beautiful lesbian best friend I used this system to great effect. We would go out together to a bar or club, have a drink or two and then she would leave to go to a gay club. 
And then all I had to do was wait for a few minutes. 😁😁😁😁


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Al_Bundy said:


> This is old school stuff. I think some people are taking this too literal. Think of a night club where one guy is in the VIP section and he's chatting with the owner and women are stopping by to talk to them. Now look over at the guy standing with his back against the wall and holding his beer over his chest. Which one is more attractive?


Reading this book gave me a great idea for a playbook idea for the character Barney Stinson in the show How I Met Your Mother. 

Guy walks into a bar and goes up to an attractive female and asks her for help because he is being followed by a creepy woman. He asks her to pretend to be his girlfriend just long enough to get this creepy girl to leave him alone. He claims that for sure the attractive woman can do this no problem because she is so beautiful. 

The setup for this involves an attractive female wingman (_cough_ wingwoman) to play the role of the "creepy woman" following the guy. She walks into the bar and looks at the other woman as if she is devastated and then run away all upset. The guy then gets to strike up a conversation with the attractive girl to thank her for helping him!


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

badsanta said:


> Reading this book gave me a great idea for a playbook idea for the character Barney Stinson in the show How I Met Your Mother.
> 
> Guy walks into a bar and goes up to an attractive female and asks her for help because he is being followed by a creepy woman. He asks her to pretend to be his girlfriend just long enough to get this creepy girl to leave him alone. He claims that for sure the attractive woman can do this no problem because she is so beautiful.
> 
> The setup for this involves an attractive female wingman (_cough_ wingwoman) to play the role of the "creepy woman" following the guy. She walks into the bar and looks at the other woman as if she is devastated and then run away all upset. The guy then gets to strike up a conversation with the attractive girl to thank her for helping him!


Not familiar with the show, I would just simply chat up the attractive female at the bar without the song and dance.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Al_Bundy said:


> Not familiar with the show, I would just simply chat up the attractive female at the bar without the song and dance.


It is meant to be comical! 






Barney Stinson - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org







> Barney Stinson is one of five main characters on How I Met Your Mother. He is a manipulative, oversexed businessman in his thirties who always wears a suit, likes women with "daddy issues" and is frequently willing to offer his (sometimes hypocritical) opinion.


In the show he often talks about his "playbook" for the moves he uses to seduce women. Absolutely hilarious!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> @badsanta does the book mention anything about mystery and excitement? I know when I was married, my libido ebbed and flowed in direct correlation to how much effort my spouse put into wooing me with exciting activities. I don't think I'm special. You hear about couples having tons of sex when they go on romantic getaways. Just the change of venue is enough excitement to increase libido.


...one thing discussed is arousal difficulties and there being two primary problems:

not enough stimulation
something is distracting

I think my wife struggles with the second and the book describes what I believe her experience to be exactly. 

_"In addition to trying to please a partner or worrying about how they look, potential distractors include worrying about whether the kids (or parents) next door are listening, contemplating the next day's work and errands..."_

Historically my wife complained that I made her feel inadequate as if she would never be enough for me. While that has improved, I know she still struggles with her self image. She also worries about everything too much and it is difficult to get her to let go and relax. When I do get her to relax she immediately just wants sleep (because she often keeps a busy work schedule). 

In my opinion I think a "change in venue" is something that helps everyday distractions and stress subside along with having energy for yourself and doing things fun. Problems are left at home. So essentially this is just an escape mechanism, and a short term one at that. Nothing like coming home and finding your home a mess from lazy teenagers that don't clean after themselves and realizing the dogs haven't been fed in over a day because their food ran out (where the new bags of dog food comes from is for some reason still a mystery to teenagers with drivers licenses). 

Perhaps the only coping mechanism that can regularly overcome this is humor. If I can get my wife laughing it helps put her in the mood to feel good. Of course I can step it up around the house to help keep things clean and running smoothly, for some reason this never seems to produce any results in the bedroom that I can effectively correlate. If anything it causes me problems because she thinks I am helping around the house to just manipulate her for more sex (hey I simply enjoy a clean house too!) and that is problematic. 

As I am writing this and wanting to offer advice to help others, one simply can't just step in and solve problems like being the husband that helps clean the kitchen. I think that it is more effective to first acknowledge any work your wife has done to clean the kitchen and to offer to help work as a team so that you get the proverbial kitchen cleaned up faster. That does seem to correlate to better quality of intimacy later in the bedroom. 

That and I am going to start bragging about what I learned while practicing sports with a cute blonde helping to coach me! Because I need to get in better shape so that as a husband I will feel better to take my wife out and about more often to do things! I'll call that an "implied change of venue with a hint of jealousy!"


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

badsanta said:


> The book talks about how women do not like competition from other women, however it seems to plays an important role in determining the value of a mate and impacts desire.
> 
> It is all about balance. The book says that women do not view high value mates that get too much attention from other women to be a viable mate, because he will not be faithful. Some attention from other women on the other hand does indicate that a male is considered safe to be around by women. Meanwhile if women avoid a certain man, then he tends to look creepy as a result.
> 
> So I think it is fair to say that if a man walks into a bar and all the women scurry away from him, that you would likely do the same.


Sure, nobody wants a partner that nobody else would want. I can't imagine a guy would want a woman that no other man would have anything to do with.

But people who need a lot of opposite sex (or same sex if that's their thing) attention generally male poor partner material.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

It's often said that the most desirable man is the one that's already taken...

I dunno about that, but as other posters stated, its human nature for people to want someone that is wanted by a lot of others...It means that person has something going for them that makes them desirable...

Having said that, there is nothing more undesirable in a guy IMO/E than some guy that is orbiting a bunch of women for the sake of it..if he isn't actively pursuing, then why would he even consider it?...Those guys are often looked at as either potentially gay, weak, undesirable, whatever have you....I know a lot of women through business and such, but I don't befriend them or hang out socially with them and would never consider it......unless.......


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> Sure, nobody wants a partner that nobody else would want. I can't imagine a guy would want a woman that no other man would have anything to do with.
> 
> But people who need a lot of opposite sex (or same sex if that's their thing) generally male poor partner material.


The phrase I see floated around is that women like a guy who other women want and other guys want to be. Think classic James Bond character, or for real life the Rock.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> I have zero interest in a guy who surrounds himself with and flirts with other woman.
> 
> I consider such a man untrustworthy and it tanks any attractiveness he might havs held for me.
> 
> No interest here in being part of a harem or pick me dancing (as CL would say).


You are looking at it from the perspective of the guy being the one doing the flirting and skirt chasing etc. 

What I imagine the book was getting at is if a guy is attractive and desirable to women, women will be seeing that attraction in the behaviors and mannerisms in the other women even if the man is not flirting or reciprocating at all.

It’s not about men pursuing women - it’s about women seeing other women’s attraction and acceptance of a man.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Sure, nobody wants a partner that nobody else would want. I can't imagine a guy would want a woman that no other man would have anything to do with.


Interestingly research indicates the opposite is true when you reverse gender. Most men do not want a woman that is actively being surrounded by many men. It is perhaps a threatening situation if the other men become too competitive. 

Meanwhile if a woman is surrounded by other women (and no men), then that looks attractive. I personally found myself thinking in college that if I make friends with an attractive girl that tends to hang out mostly with other attractive girls that it would be a super opportunity to network and increase my odds. 

I think the stereotype is a man hitchhiking and being picked up by a bus full of cheerleaders.

I've never seen the stereotype of a woman hitchhiking and being picked up by a bus full of basketball players... well... wait a minute... OK, never mind! There is a category of porn dedicated to that. Perhaps the researchers and male participants in these studies were all "academically inclined" individuals that all tend to shy away from one woman surrounded by a bunch of men. 

Obviously a woman surrounded by a bunch of men attracts a lot of men. Duh! 

I'm questioning this book now!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Young at Heart said:


> Bad Santa;
> 
> This is interesting, please share what you learn from the other chapters.
> 
> ...


I am 100% with Billy Graham and Mike Pence. For men in their positions especially, boundaries are so important.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> It's often said that the most desirable man is the one that's already taken...
> 
> I dunno about that, but as other posters stated, its human nature for people to want someone that is wanted by a lot of others...It means that person has something going for them that makes them desirable...
> 
> Having said that, there is nothing more undesirable in a guy IMO/E than some guy that is orbiting a bunch of women for the sake of it..if he isn't actively pursuing, then why would he even consider it?...Those guys are often looked at as either potentially gay, weak, undesirable, whatever have you....I know a lot of women through business and such, but I don't befriend them or hang out socially with them and would never consider it......unless.......


I am only speaking for myself, but if I have found a really great guy its of no interest to me what other women think of him.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> I think that the "mate guarding" is a real thing. During the Sex Therapy sessions that saved my marriage, my wife confessed that one of her female coworkers after a company party my wife an I attended complemented my wife on the nice looking husband she had. My wife revealed this when the ST told her that if we divorced, I would probably not have a problem finding a woman who would love me. In fact the ST told my wife that I was a good catch. My wife responded with the story and said she understood that if we divorced and I wanted to remarry, I probably could. So I believe that spouses do such mental calculations.


That is an interesting point! A rather interesting dynamic that I find myself reflecting on is that many of my wife's female friends at one point or another reveal to ME that my wife talks bad about me behind my back (probably venting life's general frustrations). These women come to the conclusion after getting to actually know me that not only am I a good person, but they suddenly come to my defense. So much so that my wife has a few friends that will not allow her to complain about me and it kind of makes her upset. An example would be my wife saying, "well I tried to complain about our problem and apparently it is all my fault because so and so now thinks you are Mr super freaking wonderful, so I can't talk to her about those things anymore!"

*My point in sharing this.... I wonder if female spouses talk crap about their husbands to female friends as a form of mate guarding?* As in preemptively sabotaging any potential friendship with a female friend for the husband.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> That is an interesting point! A rather interesting dynamic that I find myself reflecting on is that many of my wife's female friends at one point or another reveal to ME that my wife talks bad about me behind my back (probably venting life's general frustrations). These women come to the conclusion after getting to actually know me that not only am I a good person, but they suddenly come to my defense. So much so that my wife has a few friends that will not allow her to complain about me and it kind of makes her upset. An example would be my wife saying, "well I tried to complain about our problem and apparently it is all my fault because so and so now thinks you are Mr super freaking wonderful, so I can't talk to her about those things anymore!"
> 
> *My point in sharing this.... I wonder if female spouses talk crap about their husbands to female friends as a form of mate guarding?* As in preemptively sabotaging any potential friendship with a female friend for the husband.


I'd say there is some of that going on. Not a lot perhaps but when a couple is dating, early in a relationship I'd also say there's more of it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> Bad Santa;
> 
> This is interesting, please share what you learn from the other chapters.
> 
> ...


I understand your perspective, but I think there's a really fine line here.

It's probably true that people are more likely to make efforts for a partner they know is desirable to others.

But if my guy leveraged that by having a female "friend", from my perspective he could **** right off and go with female "friend". I enjoy sex with my bf and I know he is desirable, but if he were to cross that line to poor boundaries in order to "remind me" his desirability would drop. At that point I would no longer consider him trustworthy.

I mean, what if your wife found an occasional male friend with more money to leverage you into spending more on her? Implied threats are terrible for a relationship.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

badsanta said:


> That is an interesting point! A rather interesting dynamic that I find myself reflecting on is that many of my wife's female friends at one point or another reveal to ME that my wife talks bad about me behind my back (probably venting life's general frustrations). These women come to the conclusion after getting to actually know me that not only am I a good person, but they suddenly come to my defense. So much so that my wife has a few friends that will not allow her to complain about me and it kind of makes her upset. An example would be my wife saying, "well I tried to complain about our problem and apparently it is all my fault because so and so now thinks you are Mr super freaking wonderful, so I can't talk to her about those things anymore!"
> 
> *My point in sharing this.... I wonder if female spouses talk crap about their husbands to female friends as a form of mate guarding?* As in preemptively sabotaging any potential friendship with a female friend for the husband.


My running gf complains about her hb to me all the time because she needs to vent and she knows I'm a friend of their marriage and I know him.

I try to give her balanced advice to think about while also remembering that I don't know every last thing that goes on.

She loves him and knows he's a decent gut but sometimes she needs to vent to a friend who has a complete picture of her hb.

Perhaps this is the case with your wife?

I had another friend go off on me recently about how unhappy she was with her hb. I asked her if she loved him, and when she said yes I told her to sit his ass down and talk to him because I know he's a good guy.

She took my advice and he heard her.....last time she and I had dinner she was much happier.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> My running gf complains about her hb to me all the time because she needs to vent and she knows I'm a friend of their marriage and I know him.
> 
> I try to give her balanced advice to think about while also remembering that I don't know every last thing that goes on.
> 
> She loves him and knows he's a decent gut but sometimes she needs to vent to a friend who has a complete picture of her hb....


I am thinking about this dynamic now... Many of my wife's female friends talk crap about their husband's as well. My wife shares all this gossip with me and we talk about it as if, "wow, glad we don't have that problem" and it serves to reinforce our own marriage. The stuff I hear is really bad and sounds like these other marriages are headed downhill.

Meanwhile (and this is rather awkward) I'll be carpooling all the kids and hear them giggling nonstop in the backseat. I once inquired what was so funny and the daughter of the female friend described above revealed that she felt bad because she couldn't sleep. Apparently her parents would have sex so loud at night that she got up to go sleep on the other end of the house and still couldn't get away from the noise. The kids were all in the back seat mocking the noises that were heard.

So perhaps my wife's friend gets home, gossips about all the horrible things about me that my wife has said, and then reaffirms her marriage at my expense (just like what happens at my house vice versa talking trash about her husband).

I'm pretty sure that is likely a form of mate guarding as well as reaffirmation by gossiping about problems that other people have to make your own marriage seem more successful. What you want to bet everyone does this?

OMG!


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> I am only speaking for myself, but if I have found a really great guy its of no interest to me what other women think of him.


I have no reason to doubt what you are saying, but it is also entirely possible that the guy you fancy happens to be the same guy a lot of other women fancy....It could be something that you are not conscious of, but it's happening...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> I understand your perspective, but I think there's a really fine line here.
> 
> It's probably true that people are more likely to make efforts for a partner they know is desirable to others.
> 
> ...


I sort of agree with you. If one is constantly "threatening" to leave a marriage, then they are destroying the trust. If they are constantly surrounding themself with members of the opposite sex to torment their spouse, that is also not OK.

On the otherhand, if one is nice to members of the opposite sex and respectful to their wife, then it just might remind the spouse how lucky they are and that there are other women out there ready to take their place.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

badsanta said:


> That is an interesting point! A rather interesting dynamic that I find myself reflecting on is that many of my wife's female friends at one point or another reveal to ME that my wife talks bad about me behind my back (probably venting life's general frustrations). These women come to the conclusion after getting to actually know me that not only am I a good person, but they suddenly come to my defense. So much so that my wife has a few friends that will not allow her to complain about me and it kind of makes her upset. An example would be my wife saying, "well I tried to complain about our problem and apparently it is all my fault because so and so now thinks you are Mr super freaking wonderful, so I can't talk to her about those things anymore!"
> 
> *My point in sharing this.... I wonder if female spouses talk crap about their husbands to female friends as a form of mate guarding?* As in preemptively sabotaging any potential friendship with a female friend for the husband.


That is quite possible. During the Sex Starved phase of my marriage to my wife, she "bad mouthed me" for no apparent reason in front of our adult children. One of them took her aside and told her she needed to treat me better. so I think it is not limited to female friends.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> I am 100% with Billy Graham and Mike Pence. For men in their positions especially, boundaries are so important.


In this day and age of "he said, she said" and tabloid lies, I understand. Also if one has the morals of Bill Clinton, it is also totally appropriate. Still it seems a little extreme, but possibly reasonable for people who the media wants to tarnish.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> In this day and age of "he said, she said" and tabloid lies, I understand. Also if one has the morals of Bill Clinton, it is also totally appropriate. Still it seems a little extreme, but possibly reasonable for people who the media wants to tarnish.


When I was still working there were several instances of men accused of malfeasance by women . Without witnesses on their behalf they had no chance, all of them were fired. None of the men were of any interest to the media. I had a policy of never being alone with any female anywhere. Late in my career, the company placed surveillance cameras everywhere. Solved a lot of potential issues IMO. Maybe extreme, but that is part of the times we live in.

Apologies, end t/j


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

badsanta said:


> I was having a conversation with my wife and she agrees with everything in it so far. In the first chapter it also gets into smell a being something that can powerfully influence a woman's desire. *My wife has always asked me to wear cologne but I have for the most part dismissed that. I*


This got this old dog thinking. I have never in my life worn cologne or even aftershave. And the wife has never asked me to. But in the interest of investigation, when she asked what for Christmas, I told her buy me some aftershave and cologne that SHE liked. Does the book give any clue about what type fragrances influence a woman? I had always thought that the natural fragrance from both genders were what were effective. After all, animals don't buy cologne, they have the right "cologne" built in.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> ...one thing discussed is arousal difficulties and there being two primary problems:
> 
> not enough stimulation
> something is distracting
> ...


Those definitely play into the equation for some women but they have never been an issue for me. 

When it comes to sex, I am rather easy to motivate lol. 

I have a theory based on my experiences that men need to have challenges in their lives or they lose interest. This is wirh all kinds of relationships (long term, new, short term). Idle hands and all that jazz. I wonder if making men jump through hoops for sex is part of the bigger human survival picture?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> It's often said that the most desirable man is the one that's already taken...


When I had been going out with my wife for a couple months, there was one girl in the building I chatted with on breaks outside who was in the blue hair SF brigade (so I wasn’t interested). I mentioned I had been going out with this one girl for a few months when we were chatting.

Next time I see her outside she had brought her friend from her office who was very much not blue hair brigade. Her friend was mentioning how she wanted to go out and do stuff after work and I was thinking damn why didn’t this transpire earlier? I had been talking to blue hair for a year and she doesn’t set up her friend until she sees me going out with someone else.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I haven't seen where anyone has mentioned this by name which is surprising because it is an established thing in the PUA community..... it is called Pre-Selection. 

Pre-Selection is a pretty significant force. 

From the time a woman develops sexually, she has pretty much every male in the area code sniffing around her and trying to get into her knickers. Who she selects whether it's for a hook up or coffee shop date or a LTR and especially marriage and family is major, life-impacting decision that can literally mean the difference between a great life or one of despair,,,,,, pick the wrong date and she could literally end up chained up in Buffalo Bill's basement well being starved and putting the lotion on it's skin. 

The Average Jane does not have the time or energy or desire to do background checks and review resume's and conduct applicant interviews with every man asks her if she would like some dck with that (to use a Chris Rock reference)

So a powerful selection tool in her toolbox is to let OTHER women screen the mating pool for her. If she knows an attractive woman of status who has a lot of options is going out with Jimmy and that woman thinks Jimmy is all that,,,, then Jimmy has passed the preselection test and is seen as a viable candidate. 

If her friend Suzy is attractive and popular and has a lot of social status, and Suzy likes Jimmy and has been getting with him for awhile and all is well with their relationshiip - then Jimmy must be a good guy and is worthy of getting with herself. 

Conversely, if Steve seems to be having trouble getting dates and can't get a GF and is apparently a virgin, then even though some little chicky may think he's kind of cute in his own way,,,, she will be leery and suspicious if none of the other women are showing any interest in him. And if any attractive women of good social status have said anything about him being creepy or indicating that they don't like him or he creeps them out, then he will likely get crossed off everyone's list by default. 

A guy can get blacklisted pretty easily if he doesn't date or doesn't have positive associations with the women in his tribe. 

This is how a lot of these InCels and MGTOWs find themselves on the outside.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

..... and I think about every guy has experienced this on the back end. 

Countless guys may have had a dry spell or simply not a lot of apparent interest from women, but once they got a GF, chicks that never gave them the time of day before are now flashing their eyes at him and giving him the wink and nod and feeling his arms commenting on how he must be working out a lot now etc etc. And some will even overtly show up at his house for some reason on their way to the store or on their way home from work or the club or whatever. 

And even though this may seem contradictory and even wrong,, the strongest form of preselection is when a man is married and has a good home and family with an attractive woman of status. 

When a young, fertile chicky at the office sees Kevin From Sales and sees his pictures of the pretty wife and adorable kids and their nice house in the suburbs and his BMW in the parking lot, He is completely preselected and has shown that he is the kind of mate she wants. 

When girls are dating in high school and early days of college, they are speculating and trying to pick which initial mate stocks will pay dividends and make capital gains. 

When they get out in the adult world, they encounter men who are already what they want.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

..... this is also one of the reasons that many men who have divorced due to cheating or mentally ill wives or especially have been widowed have women lined up outside their door. 

As long as the guys themselves haven't gotten fat or were falling down drunks or chronically unemployed etc, divorced men often times find themselves with more options and easier time getting with women than when they were single. 

If they were good husbands and provided a good standard of living etc, they have shown that they had what it takes. 

Now yes, if the women dumped them because they had put on 100lbs and were drunk on the coach and were chronically unemployed/underemployed, that is a different story. 

But if it's a guy that took good care of himself and was professionally successful and provided a reasonably good home life and lifestyle and his wife put on 100lbs or turned out to be crazy or he caught her with Sven From Yoga after he paid for her gym membership because she was complaining about being stuck in the house and being fat all the time - that guy is going to have options after divorce. 

And if God forbid, a guy is a good husband and father and he becomes widowed,,,, chicks basically show up at his door with their suitcases packed ready to help him take care of the kids and move on.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

...... but what I think is the extreme form of sexual preselection (although not necessarily spouse selection) is in the swinging community. 

Many men in the swinging community (myself included) were with way more women sexually AFTER they were married than they ever dreamed of before they married. 

When a guy shows up at the party with an attractive partner, he has already passed the preselection litmus test to the other women. 

They may still not find him attractive themselves or have any interest in having sex with him themselves, but their deflector shields are not automatically on high alert when he walks in the room or says hello to them.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> If a man I knew spent all his time with women I would think that was odd.


My youngest is very well manered, tall and handsome. He had girls ask him to dance at school functions and they were always telling them bye. He is 16, 6'06", blue eyes and brown hair. Preferrs to wear suit/tie for church and special occasions. 

He did not have many friends at school due to their language. He does not like all the cursing and talk of sex, alcohol and drugs, so he removed himself from those type of kids. The girls sought him out.

There was several girls chasing him but ge maintains he will not have a GF now. He will fond a wife when he gets to Seminary in St. Louis and find a girl with same beliefs and mindset.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

badsanta said:


> *My point in sharing this.... I wonder if female spouses talk crap about their husbands to female friends as a form of mate guarding?* As in preemptively sabotaging any potential friendship with a female friend for the husband.


Not in my world.

Typically friends and I talk more about other topics than our relationships. When we do though, I think there’s a trust that occurs whether a friend is sharing grievances or expressing attraction to their spouse. For those who share grievances, it’s usually to bounce something off me. And they know I won’t automatically agree with their stance, as in we’ll talk it through. Often what is shared can be deeply personal and stays in the friendship vault. I’m not talking shenanigans, for what it’s worth; rather things shared in anticipated relative confidence. And so with those conversations, I’m not going back and sharing with Batman.

I wouldn’t think there’s any kind of mate guarding occurring at all. I certainly don’t have friends who consistently complain about their spouses either. Granted, it’s likely I wouldn’t have the patience for it and it would erode my view/respect of a friend if they did. Within my social circle, respecting the spouse and enjoying their company as a group is a bonus on top of the friendship itself. Not friends putting the spouse down as a form of mate guarding… WTF. I think that would demonstrate someone that is deeply insecure if such a thing happens. 

Most things between Batman and I remain between us. I consider that a form of respect towards one another. Yet friends still have a solid notion of what our relationship and personalities are like from being around us. And we don’t take ourselves too seriously to not share what we’re like with each other, in front of one another with friends.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Divinely Favored said:


> There was several girls chasing him but ge maintains he will not have a GF now. He will fond a wife when he gets to Seminary in St. Louis and find a girl with same beliefs and mindset.


At 16 he is still quite young, so if one of the girls catches his attention his "not having a GF" could change on a dime.. Still, he seems especially dedicated to his beliefs (rare in these times) and finding a girl with those same beliefs would be essential when contemplating marriage.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I have zero interest in a guy who surrounds himself with and flirts with other woman.
> 
> I consider such a man untrustworthy and it tanks any attractiveness he might havs held for me.
> 
> No interest here in being part of a harem or pick me dancing (as CL would say).


The visual of the harem cracked me up!😁


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Interestingly research indicates the opposite is true when you reverse gender. Most men do not want a woman that is actively being surrounded by many men. It is perhaps a threatening situation if the other men become too competitive.
> 
> Meanwhile if a woman is surrounded by other women (and no men), then that looks attractive. I personally found myself thinking in college that if I make friends with an attractive girl that tends to hang out mostly with other attractive girls that it would be a super opportunity to network and increase my odds.
> 
> ...


Hmmm. I can't say I really cared if a woman was being targeted by a bunch of guys or was in a group of women.

I've had the woman of the night (the one every guy was trying to score with), sit on my lap as I ignored her and eventually she took me home and I've also taken the alpha chick (the apparent leader of a large group of women) for a spin on the wild side for a night.

I guess I didn't care about the people around the situation but the woman's amenable behavior toward me and sexual aggression seemed to be a determining element.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

badsanta said:


> *My point in sharing this.... I wonder if female spouses talk crap about their husbands to female friends as a form of mate guarding?*


Some might. I think it's a pretty poor guarding technique though.

Mrs. Conan speaks very highly about me but is a very territorial mate guarding lady.

She is only 5' tall but somehow scares the **** out of would be adversaries.😳


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> The visual of the harem cracked me up!😁


I'm doing men a favor.

I'm enough trouble by myself.....nobody wants me as part of a harem 🤣


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm doing men a favor.
> 
> I'm enough trouble by myself.....nobody wants me as part of a harem 🤣


I have always wondered about the harem concept. I certainly have my hands full with one!

I was having a good time picturing you in some type of harem situation and I came to the same conclusion as you and I was laughing my ass off!😆


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> I think there is a good sized group of women that find men attractive that have their own interests and seem to be accomplishing goals.


I relate to this. It doesn't matter to me whether other women find Batman attractive or not. At least, not consciously. Yet I’m also not negating the pre-selection thing either.

I know his appeal... he's appealing to me... and he's got a good sense of himself, too. Kind of naturally as a result, that means others typically enjoy being in his company too. That’s something I enjoy about him. I’m not talking flirtatiousness.

Although I will recycle this story for good measure. As he’s a volunteer fire-fighter, he shared that when giving a demonstration to a group, one of the girls in attendance slipped her hand into his and declared that she loved him. I maturely responded, 'Where does this beotch live? 'coz she's going down!' The fact that she was 6 years old is a mere detail.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Ask yourself… why do you need so much validation from females? It’s a character flaw and your wife recognizes it - and realizes your flaw could ruin your marriage.
Work with a professional on that character flaw.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

heartsbeating said:


> I relate to this. It doesn't matter to me whether other women find Batman attractive or not. At least, not consciously. Yet I’m also not negating the pre-selection thing either.
> 
> I know his appeal... he's appealing to me... and he's got a good sense of himself, too. Kind of naturally as a result, that means others typically enjoy being in his company too. That’s something I enjoy about him. I’m not talking flirtatiousness.
> 
> Although I will recycle this story for good measure. As he’s a volunteer fire-fighter, he shared that when giving a demonstration to a group, one of the girls in attendance slipped her hand into his and declared that she loved him. I maturely responded, 'Where does this beotch live? 'coz she's going down!' The fact that she was 6 years old is a mere detail.


Pre-selection is just another word for having his act together.
A married man signals that he has his act together by virtue of being able to attract the attention of a woman.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> I have always wondered about the harem concept. I certainly have my hands full with one!
> 
> I was having a good time picturing you in some type of harem situation and I came to the same conclusion as you and I was laughing my ass off!😆


When in college, a classmate from Africa enlightened the rest of us about his family during a lunch break. His father had 17 wives because he was from a wealthy family and could afford to buy more than one wife ( he never said why he stopped at 17 ), so of course the classmate had a LOT of siblings. He said all of the women and kids cooperated with the farming, cooking, childcare etc. Said his father was expected to sleep with a different wife each nite and if he hadn't it would have been h3ll to pay. Said by the time he got back to the first wife ( they were ranked by how long they had been a wife) she was very happy to see him. Seemed like a lot of pressure on one man to me, heaven help him if he ever developed ED. 

I think this was the norm in ancient times and still the norm in a lot of cultures worldwide.

Sorry, end t/j


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rus47 said:


> When in college, a classmate from Africa enlightened the rest of us about his family during a lunch break. His father had 17 wives because he was from a wealthy family and could afford to buy more than one wife ( he never said why he stopped at 17 ), so of course the classmate had a LOT of siblings. He said all of the women and kids cooperated with the farming, cooking, childcare etc. Said his father was expected to sleep with a different wife each nite and if he hadn't it would have been h3ll to pay. Said by the time he got back to the first wife ( they were ranked by how long they had been a wife) she was very happy to see him. Seemed like a lot of pressure on one man to me, heaven help him if he ever developed ED.
> 
> I think this was the norm in ancient times and still the norm in a lot of cultures worldwide.
> 
> Sorry, end t/j


Interesting that you ran into someone who came from that situation.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Interesting that you ran into someone who came from that situation.


That was nearly 6 decades ago as a freshman. The school had students from throughout the world and a lot of different cultures, quite experience for a kid from a very small town. Many more stories from those days from how other cultures live(d).


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Rus47 said:


> When in college, a classmate from Africa enlightened the rest of us about his family during a lunch break. His father had 17 wives because he was from a wealthy family and could afford to buy more than one wife ( he never said why he stopped at 17 ), so of course the classmate had a LOT of siblings. He said all of the women and kids cooperated with the farming, cooking, childcare etc. Said his father was expected to sleep with a different wife each nite and if he hadn't it would have been h3ll to pay. Said by the time he got back to the first wife ( they were ranked by how long they had been a wife) she was very happy to see him. Seemed like a lot of pressure on one man to me, heaven help him if he ever developed ED.
> 
> I think this was the norm in ancient times and still the norm in a lot of cultures worldwide.
> 
> Sorry, end t/j


I remember talking to a woman from Bahrain and she told that it was legal to have up to 4 wives (if I remember correctly) but you needed wife #1's permission and you needed to be able to support them separately.

Her mother had married her father at 13 and after 8 kids was tired so she found him another wife. He said ok but had to buy another house.

Her mother was happy with her 8 kids and him splitting his time between the two houses.

I support whatever arrangements adults wants to work out. It's when the women don't get a say that I take issue with it.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I think there is a big difference between a man who seeks validation from women, versus a man who receives attention from women and is perhaps unaware of it or amused by it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> I wouldn’t think there’s any kind of mate guarding occurring at all. I certainly don’t have friends who consistently complain about their spouses either. Granted, it’s likely I wouldn’t have the patience for it and it would erode my view/respect of a friend if they did. Within my social circle, respecting the spouse and enjoying their company as a group is a bonus on top of the friendship itself.


I tend to agree. I never take myself too seriously and have a dark sense of humor that can instantly defuse most situations so that I can enjoy being with a group of friends even if someone pokes fun at me for something.

After reflecting on this thought, there is a unique benefit for spouses that unload grievances onto friends. There is this saying that, "comparison is the thief of joy!" So much on social media is highly filtered so that people only share the good stuff about themselves. Part of me thinks there is some inherent biological instinct in all of us to compare our lives to others. Perhaps to quantify both our personal accomplishments and mistakes against the lives of others. It actually can be reaffirming in one's own marriage to know that if you are struggling that you are not alone when comparing yourself to a friend's struggles. 

If you imagined a world in which we only bragged about our spouses to friends, that probably would be demoralizing behind the scenes if everyone is struggling and not talking about it.

Back to mate guarding... So I went with my wife to visit one of her female friends recently. This female friend is single, wanting to date, but works too much to have enough time to meet anyone. Before going to visit my wife warned me, "she does not have a good impression of you because of things I have told her, so try not to be weird about it when we visit if something of that comes up in conversation." Having just read about mate guarding in this book, I couldn't help but to think there was a little bit of this going on. Anyway the visit was nice and afterwards my wife asked me many questions about what I thought of her friend. Specifically she did ask if I thought this friend was attractive in my opinion. I somewhat deflected on answering that by mentioning that she seemed to take good care of her health and compared that to people we know that do not exercise regularly. I suggested we should all go hiking sometime, so I am curious if my wife blocks that. Interestingly I do sometimes go hiking with my wife and one of her female friends, but so far all of them are married friends (that all talk crap about their significant other while we are hiking!). 

Other woman talking about her husband to my wife:


> _OMG my husband will not stop using tobacco dip and he spits it everywhere which is so gross! He also has this really strange problem with his skin on his feet and refuses to go to the doctor about it. He will pick at it and it makes me want to gag!"_


Pretty appetizing isn't it? Meanwhile this husband just purchased her a new porsche SUV and custom built her a McMansion with horses. So she has a lot to brag about if she wanted. Or perhaps she might be guarding him against her friends getting interested in him. Interestingly enough she had an affair with her husband's best friend, so perhaps she instinctively knows all to well that friends can get too close to a spouse. 

Now that I am reflecting on this, it kind of makes sense.


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## gr8ful1 (Dec 3, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Before going to visit my wife warned me, "she does not have a good impression of you because of things I have told her, so try not to be weird about it when we visit if something of that comes up in conversation."


I would be pissed as hell if my wife bad-mouthed me to others. Did it not bother you?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Regarding this book...

The next chapter gets into the dynamics between sex and love. Particularly how women use one to influence the other. The researchers of this book tried as best they could to quantify what love is and they came up with the following:

The triangular theory of love exists of:

Intimacy (as in feeling emotionally close and connected)
Passion (as in physical desire and attraction)
Commitment (a willingness to be there through good and bad)

What the researchers discovered is that women may enter into a relationship based on only establishing one of the above and then use sex as an attempt establish the others. This often fails. Researchers did note in relationships that have all three that sex actually does serve as a meaningful way to reinforce all the feelings and dynamics of love. So ultimately women should learn that you can use sex to strengthen love, but you can't use sex to create forms of love that otherwise don't exist. 

The researchers also noted that long term couples almost all experience that each form of love naturally tends to wax and wane over time. This in my opinion can likely cause problems with sex because perhaps as one of these dynamics wanes it causes women to feel unloved and used for sex. Whereas women would prefer to reinforce a waning dynamic in a loving way and then reinforce that by celebrating with sex and not use sex as a primary way to heal the marriage.

Regarding this topic, the book mostly points out how young and inexperienced women assume they can use sex to create love and end up heartbroken as a result when the relationship fails.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

gr8ful1 said:


> I would be pissed as hell if my wife bad-mouthed me to others. Did it not bother you?


Doesn't bother me at all. I grew up with older siblings that talked trash about me and teased the ever living crap out of me. In my opinion that makes me stronger because I can deal with criticism in a constructive way and I can ignore it when someone is just messing with me. 

At work one time my boss came to me screaming and cussing upset. Cool as a cucumber I validated his reason for being upset and started working towards getting the situation calmed down. He immediately calmed down and started helping me work through the issue as a team. Afterwards he thanked me for working towards solving problems as opposed to just trying to defend myself and shift blame onto others as everyone else does. Took a lifetime of being trash talked by my older siblings for me to be able to handle myself that way and stay calm.


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## gr8ful1 (Dec 3, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Doesn't bother me at all. I grew up with older siblings that talked trash about me and teased the ever living crap out of me. In my opinion that makes me stronger because I can deal with criticism in a constructive way and I can ignore it when someone is just messing with me.
> 
> At work one time my boss came to me screaming and cussing upset. Cool as a cucumber I validated his reason for being upset and started working towards getting the situation calmed down. He immediately calmed down and started helping me work through the issue as a team. Afterwards he thanked me for working towards solving problems as opposed to just trying to defend myself and shift blame onto others as everyone else does. Took a lifetime of being trash talked by my older siblings for me to be able to handle myself that way and stay calm.


Perhaps I misunderstood what your wife was saying. If she was sharing some valid criticisms that’s one thing (I suppose) if given to a close friend, who ALSO has been told (or knows of) the many other positive attributes of the spouse, then that could be ok. And yes, all of us should be able to handle constructive criticism.

That’s not what it sounded like in your case. It sounded like your wife painted you as some kind of ogre, so much so that she even warned you her friend likely thinks of you that way. I’d still be quite pissed if my wife went around telling others what a crappy husband I am. In the end, the wife would look like a fool when the truth is revealed. I wonder if your wife is fearing the shame of that very thing….


----------



## Dread Pirate Roberts (May 22, 2012)

Such an interesting thread. Saturday, my GF went to breakfast with a group of women that she taught with for years before she moved to other schools. She woke up yesterday and told me she had a dream where I was getting friendly with one of them. This is a woman I haven't seen in person in at least a couple of years. I gave her a little ribbing about it then forgot about it and we had kid's birthday activities. I get a text today that says "pick up some lube today". Related? Who knows, but CVS on the way home today!

DPR


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

...continuing ahead in this book.

The researchers claim to have gotten into the dynamics of why women are not socially accepted for having multiple sexual partners but men can. They claim that it is women that perpetuate this dynamic. As in women spread gossip about other women as a way to ruin their reputations in order to be competitive. So if men hear gossip that a woman may have slept around and be diseased or that she will be not be loyal, it reduces her social status and makes her less competitive. The fact that women are more competitive is also thought to correlate to the amount of beauty products purchased compared to what men purchase. Also add in mate guarding dynamics and poaching for that matter (aka the home wrecker). 

This got me to thinking about mismatches with sexual desire. For many women sex is about being subjected to a very competitive environment with other women that will so whatever it takes to win a desirable mate, take revenge on competitors (sleeping with someone's else's mate out of jealously or anger), or to steal someone else's man. Be too aggressive and you are labeled accordingly and everyone will avoid you like the plague. The research in this book indicates that females will not be friends with other females that are gossiped about for promiscuity. This is out of fear that they too will become guilty by association. 

By contrast men do not do this to one another. Perhaps men compete for access to desirable resources (nice house or car), but do not use sexuality as much as competitive weapon of sorts.

This leaves men able to talk about sex among themselves and not feel ashamed. Women meanwhile tend to be somewhat covert about sexuality (according to this research with some exceptions) as they do not want other female friends gossiping. 

Even here on TAM I have observed threads about relationships and disclosing everything that happened with previous partners. Many women simply do not discuss this information, not even with long term husbands out of fear it will cause problems and lower her status. As in you did that for another man but you have never been willing to do it for me issues of jealousy (perhaps a threesome or anal). 

My thoughts being is that women attack each other's sexuality and that takes a toll on self confidence. Later in life and relationships those battle scars likely end up as problems with her libido. My theory for now while reading.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> When in college, a classmate from Africa enlightened the rest of us about his family during a lunch break. His father had 17 wives because he was from a wealthy family and could afford to buy more than one wife ( he never said why he stopped at 17 ), so of course the classmate had a LOT of siblings. He said all of the women and kids cooperated with the farming, cooking, childcare etc. Said his father was expected to sleep with a different wife each nite and if he hadn't it would have been h3ll to pay. Said by the time he got back to the first wife ( they were ranked by how long they had been a wife) she was very happy to see him. Seemed like a lot of pressure on one man to me, heaven help him if he ever developed ED.
> 
> I think this was the norm in ancient times and still the norm in a lot of cultures worldwide.
> 
> Sorry, end t/j


They're probably all anxious for their turn to try to get money and favors off him.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

badsanta said:


> ...continuing ahead in this book.
> 
> The researchers claim to have gotten into the dynamics of why women are not socially accepted for having multiple sexual partners but men can. They claim that it is women that perpetuate this dynamic. As in women spread gossip about other women as a way to ruin their reputations in order to be competitive. So if men hear gossip that a woman may have slept around and be diseased or that she will be not be loyal, it reduces her social status and makes her less competitive. The fact that women are more competitive is also thought to correlate to the amount of beauty products purchased compared to what men purchase. Also add in mate guarding dynamics and poaching for that matter (aka the home wrecker).
> 
> ...


Seems like a lot of conclusions reached by these "researchers". How long did their "research" go on and were the results peer reviewed? Also curious whether the results are different than the Masters & Johnson work that lasted more than four decades. Hard to see how there could be any difference, human sexuality has been the same for what, at least 5000-10,000 years? Would seem decoding observed behavior or interviews or whatever to draw conclusions about things like "mate guarding" would take a lot of testing to eliminate alternate explanations.

It has been decades since last read any of the Masters and Johnson research, last was while "working" night shifts at a really boring job in the very early 70s. Going to download the old report(s) and I will also download the book you are reviewing onto the kindle if it is available.in that format.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> The research in this book indicates that females will not be friends with other females that are gossiped about for promiscuity. This is out of fear that they too will become guilty by association.


That's hilarious. Did they do their research in some sort of sheltered workshop, where they ignored plenty of people who don't behave that way?

I know plenty of promiscuous and not promiscuous women from my former High School friend groups. And at least in our crowds, we have stayed in touch with each other for years and still catch up with each other in person. Yet their are plenty of non promiscuous women who have remained close friends with their promiscuous friends, who had all sorts of nasty things said about them in terms of ****-shaming. Of which a lot of that shaming came from men, most specifically from men who were turned down, yet felt entitled to sex from them because they frequently readily shared it with others.

Likewise my wife is part of different friends groups, that have chaste women (she's even got one close friend who's a smidgin off turning 50, who is still a virgin because she is saving herself for marriage (as per her Christian Fatih). Yet promiscuity and no promiscuity, hasn't stopped those women, she went to school with, or went to college or university with or became friends with at work.

So if they claim that females won't be friends with other females that are gossiped about for promiscuity, then their work is clearly rubbish.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Rus47 said:


> Hard to see how there could be any difference, human sexuality has been the same for what, at least 5000-10,000 years?


The book gets into different social structures (religion and government) that do have sexual ramifications. One example is how sexuality works in societies that favor polygamy. Then you compare that to societies that outlaw polygamy. The book also got into detail on female circumcision in certain societies as a means to control and or eliminate female desire (which I think is still practiced in some societies today). So these researchers took into account some resources about sexuality that are likely just now being discussed openly in a global context. I doubt very seriously if Masters and Johnson were even aware of practices occurring globally as we do today and be able to talk with these individuals to survey global attitudes about sex. 

If you think about universities these days, you have students from all over the world that are more willing to talk about sex today than they would have been willing a few decades ago. This research openly accepts and takes into account that some people are LGBT as well.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> That's hilarious. Did they do their research in some sort of sheltered workshop, where they ignored plenty of people who don't behave that way?


According to the book these researchers spend a lot of time observing how women behave at bars. 

It is interesting that they compare women that are covert versus overt about sexual pursuits. Some women pursue men by going out in public, dressing sexy, and being very flirtatious. One example included anecdotes from a woman that would compete with her roommates for a man, and then she would make sure to bring him back and have sex with him so that her roommates would have to listen (to make them jealous and take revenge for any men they stole from her). So within that context, I don't exactly see those friendships with roommates lasting long. 

In contrast other women are very covert about their sexual pursuits (according to the book). These are best female friends in which one has a covert affair with the other's partner. She uses her friends to gain access to their mates and establish familiarity with her mate. It was also noted that this research concluded that if you make friends with someone it is because you have similar interests. Therefor a mate of one of these friends is already known to be very compatible with those same interests. So it becomes a very efficient way to find and poach a mate as the "friend" has already done the heavy lifting of sorting through undesirable mates. 

At some point this book discusses if men and women can truly be just friends. I'm starting to wonder if two women can actually be true friends or if there is too much of a potential for the dynamics of overt or covert female sexual competitiveness to cause problems.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

badsanta said:


> According to the book these researchers spend a lot of time observing how women behave at bars.


We've all done it.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Laurentium said:


> We've all done it.


I could write a book!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Laurentium said:


> We've all done it.


Wait what? You have used government grants and tuition money from students to do research on women at bars? 

No wonder college is so expensive!


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

badsanta said:


> According to the book these researchers spend a lot of time observing how women behave at bars.
> 
> It is interesting that they compare women that are covert versus overt about sexual pursuits. Some women pursue men by going out in public, dressing sexy, and being very flirtatious. One example included anecdotes from a woman that would compete with her roommates for a man, and then she would make sure to bring him back and have sex with him so that her roommates would have to listen (to make them jealous and take revenge for any men they stole from her). So within that context, I don't exactly see those friendships with roommates lasting long.
> 
> ...


Observing women at bars tells you how women who frequent bars behave.

So it's a biased sample.

Just like the loads of studies that ask 100 college students. That maybe tells you something about college students.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I prefer observing women at gyms. 😉


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Observing women at bars tells you how women who frequent bars behave.
> 
> So it's a biased sample.
> 
> Just like the loads of studies that ask 100 college students. That maybe tells you something about college students.


I am getting frustrated that all the research goes on to quote - _predominately heterosexual woman - age 19_

I would much prefer a book written based on research done primarily on women at the time of the empty nest phase of life. My kids are off at college and my wife and I are enjoying some privacy and the ability to date each other again. 

Meanwhile I hear horror stories of friends and colleagues that can't adjust to having time to spend with a spouse alone. I guess it is like people that get used to life in prison and don't want to be free anymore.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> Observing women at bars tells you how women who frequent bars behave.
> 
> So it's a biased sample.
> 
> Just like the loads of studies that ask 100 college students. That maybe tells you something about college students.


Not to mention "bars" vary greatly. A bar in Lubbock, TX is going to be very different than a club in Miami or Berlin. Although all 3 have their advantages


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> Wait what? You have used government grants and tuition money from students to do research on women at bars?
> 
> No wonder college is so expensive!


Where can one get that grant???

I can see starting a WBE, and my W and I going out to do said research. Sign us up!


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I prefer observing women at gyms. 😉


I like observing women at the gym who go to bars after.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

badsanta said:


> I am getting frustrated that all the research goes on to quote - _predominately heterosexual woman - age 19_
> 
> I would much prefer a book written based on research done primarily on women at the time of the empty nest phase of life. My kids are off at college and my wife and I are enjoying some privacy and the ability to date each other again.
> 
> Meanwhile I hear horror stories of friends and colleagues that can't adjust to having time to spend with a spouse alone. I guess it is like people that get used to life in prison and don't want to be free anymore.


My kids are just about to graduate from college, so we've been part time empty nesters for a few years. We absolutely love it. It is all about what you make of it. It has given us a lot more time to be together.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Laurentium said:


> We've all done it.


Some "lacking" in my upbringing. Spent no time in bars, let alone watching women in them. Of course, have been with same woman my whole life since age 16.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Where can one get that grant???
> 
> I can see starting a WBE, and my W and I going out to do said research. Sign us up!


Well Masters hired thrice divorced Johnson to help him with "research", their biographer said he spent more time in "lab" with her than his wife. They eventually married one another. Got a lot of grants for their "research", essentially paid to do one another frequently. What a gig lol.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Moving along with this book...

*DUTY SEX*

An obvious reason that women have sex is out of marital obligation or to maintain a relationship in the form of duty sex. While I think this book mostly researches college age women ages 18-early-20s, I think the issues are the same as later in life.

If a woman agrees to have sex when she is not in the mood out of obligation, the consequences can be both good and bad. I have never heard this verbalized but researchers seem to conclude that the outcome of a woman engaging in unwanted sex has to do with her motivation being related to _approach_ or _avoidance_.

For example a woman that enjoys pleasing her husband may not be in the mood for sex, but she approaches the situation knowing that she will enjoy pleasing him. The outcome of this is that she is likely to indeed enjoy the experience and feel positive about it afterwards.

In contrast a woman may not be in the mood for sex but agree to it in order to avoid a fight or to prevent something negative from happening in the relationship will be negative (like having to deal with an irritable or grumpy mate that is sexually frustrated and threatening to leave). Decision making that is aversive tends to result in a woman that agrees to unwanted sex being emotionally problematic and unsettling afterwards.

ALSO

The book also noted that duty sex can be both positive or negative from the receiving end as well. Some men want to feel wanted and the idea of a mate agreeing to sex with no innate desire to do so can be very upsetting. Meanwhile some men can appreciate a spouse simply wanting to please them. So it is a compound dynamic that can cause problems for none, one, or both partners depending on one's disposition going into this scenario.

So there you have it. In my opinion duty sex often results in one or both partners feeling something and wrong and searching for something to blame. A wife perhaps gets sent to the doctor to have her hormones checked. Perhaps she is made to feel inadequate or as if she is the problem because she does not readily or spontaneously get aroused to desire sex equally in the relationship. Perhaps the husband is made to feel like a pervert for wanting too much sex. Or perhaps these things are not discussed and sex just happens to avoid these arguments.

Awkwardly the book also gets into the sad fact that there are women that enjoy sex, but just not with their husbands and only have unwanted and unenjoyable sex spouses out of duty since day one of the relationship. One instance in the book described a woman that was made to feel sexually inadequate or broken. She simply thought she just didn't find sex enjoyable. Upon ending the relationship and being with another partner, she discovered that she did like sex after all but just not with her ex husband. How could that happen? Well the researchers seemed to indicate that this particular woman wanted to feel free to be herself and not the person that someone else expected her to be. That manifests itself in the bedroom as well. If you can't be yourself, you will likely be unable to experience pleasure as a result.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> Moving along with this book...
> 
> *DUTY SEX*
> 
> ...


It's interesting and a good topic, the book you're reading.

I'm sure you already know that if the book only researched sampling women from 18 to early 20s then there is a vast and more experienced thus a majority of more relevant stories to mine for data - from mature women late 20s to 70s and up... ie outside the small group of women that are still so young they're naturally still in the early stages of learning about themselves.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

badsanta said:


> According to the book these researchers spend a lot of time observing how women behave at bars.
> 
> It is interesting that they compare women that are covert versus overt about sexual pursuits. Some women pursue men by going out in public, dressing sexy, and being very flirtatious. One example included anecdotes from a woman that would compete with her roommates for a man, and then she would make sure to bring him back and have sex with him so that her roommates would have to listen (to make them jealous and take revenge for any men they stole from her). So within that context, I don't exactly see those friendships with roommates lasting long.
> 
> ...



“Only women understand women and they hate each other.”

Al Bundy


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> It's interesting and a good topic, the book you're reading.
> 
> I'm sure you already know that if the book only researched sampling women from 18 to early 20s then there is a vast and more experienced thus a majority of more relevant stories to mine for data - from mature women late 20s to 70s and up... ie outside the small group of women that are still so young they're naturally still in the early stages of learning about themselves.


The book does include survey results from women in their 50s, particularly in the chapter about menopause. However if the research is conducted by a university the closest available resources for this research would obviously be a college population. 

In my opinion the question of, "who are you" is one never easy to answer. Perhaps it fuels most people's mid life crisis around the ages of 40 to 60. That is a time in which the dreams of the person you wanted to become ultimately are a no show in life and one has to figure out who they actually have become in life and answer that question unto themselves of, "who am I!"

So someone in their 20s is likely to know just as much about themselves as someone that is 40. In that you probably don't know but you are hanging onto a dream of who you want to be. At some point you have to let go and be yourself if you are still able to figure out who that is. Does that dynamic manifest in the bedroom. Oh heck yes in my opinion!!!

A friend of ours was telling a story of her good friend. After being married for her entire life she divorced her husband in her mid 40s. She wanted to begin dating again and struggled but eventually found someone and became ecstatically pleased with this new relationship. She discovered that the love of her life would turn out to be another woman. 

Society gives everyone a lot of pressure to be this or that. Some people are good at simply being themselves and others want to be this facade of a person they are told to be. College or middle age, I think that issue is universally shared among almost all age groups with perhaps around the age of 60 being the exception. 

Perhaps as Schnarch researched that and observed that the age of 60 represents the peak of a woman's potential sexuality. Perhaps this is the age she finally knows who she is and stops caring about what others think. Her children are all grown up and she she finally can devote time and energy into discovering who she is.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I have now finished this book and feel as I reader that I was not the intended audience. While I did learn some things, I found it off putting to repeatedly see research cite the sexuality of women in their late teens to early twenties. That is the same age as my daughter and the book feels exactly like listening to them gossip about their boyfriends and their respective drama. 

Perhaps the best audience for this book would be a confused college-age male looking to better understand female sexual dynamics.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

badsanta said:


> Moving along with this book...
> 
> *DUTY SEX*
> 
> ...


Don't forget validation sex. The guy is hot, or has status (celebrity, athlete, etc...)


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

badsanta said:


> I have now finished this book and feel as I reader that I was not the intended audience. While I did learn some things, I found it off putting to repeatedly see research cite the sexuality of women in their late teens to early twenties. *That is the same age as my daughter and the book feels exactly like listening to them gossip about their boyfriends and their respective drama.*
> 
> Perhaps the best audience for this book would be a confused college-age male looking to better understand female sexual dynamics.


Welcome to old age! Next you will be reading books researching people the age of your grandchildren. Old folks like me aren't the "intended audience".

My college-age grandson has very good understanding of female sexual dynamics, has to beat them off with a stick. He could likely write an informed book on the subject. I have a suspicion that with the internet and all of the ways of staying informed about anything and everything social, all college-age males and females are very much up on anything sexual.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I prefer observing women at gyms. 😉


Ah, you dirty old man!


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Talker67 said:


> Ah, you dirty old man!


I have to say at a big box gym there are a set of people there who are 30% working out and 70% showing their plumage.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

badsanta said:


> "Why Women Have Sex"


The why doesn't need a PhD to write a book about it, any aboriginal in a remote jungle could tell you the why, simple: it's a genetic drive we all living things in this world have and do instinctively. Procreation and perpetuation of the species is the game. Now the book should be called: "Who women have sex with". That would explain the genetic and societal/cultural pressures that make women (and men) to choose who they have sex with.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> I have to say at a big box gym there are a set of people there who are 30% working out and 70% showing their plumage.


That's probably why nobody checks out us runners....we're too tired and sweaty to show off plumage. Assuming we even have any 😁

In fairness though I do get nice legs comments from an occasional cyclist riding by. Those make my day 😀


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> That's probably why nobody checks out us runners....we're too tired and sweaty to show off plumage. Assuming we even have any 😁
> 
> In fairness though I do get nice kegs comments from an occasional cyclist riding by. Those make my day 😀


FWIW, wife is a runner (as am I) and am always “checking her out”.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Rus47 said:


> FWIW, wife is a runner (as am I) and am always “checking her out”.


You're a good husband and a lucky man 😀

My guy regularly checks me out too and says my fitness level is unusual, especially in a late 40's chick.

But i understand that runners can't put on the show you can get at the gym 😅


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> You're a good husband and a lucky man 😀
> 
> My guy regularly checks me out too and says my fitness level is unusual, especially in a late 40's chick.
> 
> But i understand that runners can't put on the show you can get at the gym 😅


Wife is 76 and still running the streets lol


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> That's probably why nobody checks out us runners....we're too tired and sweaty to show off plumage. Assuming we even have any 😁
> 
> In fairness though I do get nice kegs comments from an occasional cyclist riding by. Those make my day 😀


Haha I was showing off my plumage on the ship. I did a bunch of push ups to pump up and then jogged on the track for 45 minutes or so waiting for my wife to show up for stretching class. One of the hot tubs was filled with maybe mid-20s bikini chicks and I sped up a bit and lengthened my stride as I passed every time.

One remarked “ooh he is fast” although that is only because the other people on the track were decrepit and everything looks fast when you’re drinking at 9am in a hot tub.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> In fairness though I do get nice kegs comments from an occasional cyclist riding by. Those make my day 😀


My coach told me a bikini competitor was watching me on the speed bag and she told him that my legs looked strong. He said, they look strong coz they are strong. I was like damn she said that?

Biking around here I love the ladies that ride Jan Ulrich geared doubles in the steep hills. Massive quads and glutes on them and no upper body. I think it’s a good look or one that I prefer. Gearset described here, go up a lot of 8%+ grades with this = hot. A chat with Jan Ullrich: The CyclingTips interview - CyclingTips


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> That's probably why nobody checks out us runners....we're too tired and sweaty to show off plumage. Assuming we even have any 😁


Not true. I love the physique of female runners 🏃‍♀️


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rob_1 said:


> The why doesn't need a PhD to write a book about it, any aboriginal in a remote jungle could tell you the why, simple: it's a genetic drive we all living things in this world have and do instinctively. Procreation and perpetuation of the species is the game. Now the book should be called: "Who women have sex with". That would explain the genetic and societal/cultural pressures that make women (and men) to choose who they have sex with.


I can see the title cover now :

“WHO WOMEN BANG
And How to Become That Guy”

It would make the best seller list in a day.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I can see the title cover now :
> 
> “WHO WOMEN BANG
> And How to Become That Guy”
> ...


I think I’m going to write it, I want to retire soon.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> I can see the title cover now :
> 
> “WHO WOMEN BANG
> And How to Become That Guy”
> ...


While reading this book I totally found myself thinking about the commandments if the Pick Up Artist. 

That has been discussed here on TAM before in detail and as much as women do not like certain things, they do tend to respond to it. 

*The Sixteen Commandments Of Poon*
I. Never say ‘I Love You’ first
II. Make her jealous
III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority
IV. Don’t play by her rules
V. Adhere to the golden ratio
VI. Keep her guessing
VII. Always keep two in the kitty (as in have another woman ready to date)
VIII. Say you’re sorry only when absolutely necessary
IX. Connect with her emotions
X. Ignore her beauty
XI. Be irrationally self-confident
XII. Maximize your strengths, minimize your weaknesses
XIII. Err on the side of too much boldness, rather than too little
XIV. F*** her good
XV. Maintain your state control
XVI. Never be afraid to lose her

Now obviously you can't exactly run a long term marriage that way as those rules are based on a man looking to reliably get short term gains.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

badsanta said:


> Now obviously you can't exactly run a long term marriage that way


Nearly all of that applies in marriage, though.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Laurentium said:


> Nearly all of that applies in marriage, though.


I do personally agree that being irrationally self confident is very effective.

My wife might tell me she is not in the mood to which I'll grin and claim that is when I do my best work. Sure enough moments later she will claim that it is, "not fair" that I am able to do that to her as I work my magic in the bedroom!

It does take irrational self confidence combined with some rather twisted humor to accomplish that! I'll whisper sweet nothings into her ear like, "don't worry as I know this will fail, but I am going to fail so spectacularly that you will be amazed, and so much so that ironically it will end up being the best you have ever had!" She will start giggling and sure enough the sparks start flying!

Cheers,
Badsanta


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

badsanta said:


> Now obviously you can't exactly run a long term marriage that way as those rules are based on a man looking to reliably get short term gains.


I'm not sure it was ever intended for just single men picking up chicks for short term hook ups. 

Poon is poon whether there is a ring on a finger or not.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> Not true. I love the physique of female runners 🏃‍♀️


That is appreciated 😀


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> That is appreciated 😀


Oh the appreciation is all mine!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

badsanta said:


> I do personally agree that being irrationally self confident is very effective.
> 
> My wife might tell me she is not in the mood to which I'll grin and claim that is when I do my best work. Sure enough moments later she will claim that it is, "not fair" that I am able to do that to her as I work my magic in the bedroom!
> 
> ...


Hahahaha! I love you man!😋

I love your relationship with your wife.

It isn't mine but it's cool.

Mrs. Conan gets hot if I even look at her wrong so we have a different dynamic but yours is f'ing cool dude.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. Conan gets hot if I even look at her wrong so we have a different dynamic but yours is f'ing cool dude.


I used to get frustrated in my marriage that my wife never initiates. Like many others I wanted to be wanted. However I have learned to appreciate that my wife initiates nonsexual intimacy all the time. She will put herself next to me on the couch and insist I rub my fingers through her hair. 

With regards to sexual intimacy I have come to appreciate being the one responsible for making that happen as I get to control when and how it happens (within her limitations of not overdoing it frequency wise). I can manage my libido accordingly and enjoy some anticipation before making my moves. From my wife's perspective things seem spontaneous and simple, whereas for me it was carefully planned and carried out in a way that actually enhanced my enjoyment. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

badsanta said:


> XIV. F*** her good


Should be moved up the list.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

theloveofmylife said:


> Should be moved up the list.


Regarding "XIV. F*** her good" I honestly think that is where many relationships fail in the bedroom. In my opinion it should be removed from the list for long term relationships as it only works for the Pick Up Artist that quickly moves on to another relationship. So the reality is that it works like this for a PUA "XIV. F*** her good one time only and leave her (wanting more)."

So in a long term relationship, one should not F her good and keep repeating that until she is content and not wanting anymore! Desire needs distance. She needs some space to want it and work for it in order for desire to thrive and be productive in the relationship. 

Have you not read those threads with women struggling to get her husband interested? She gets lingerie, toys, and comes up with all sorts of ideas on her own for how to seduce her husband. Yes it is dangerous to be in a house like that with those kind of hormones. But you don't F her good sexually, you F her brains out nonsexually and then walk away to go watch your favorite sports game and ignore her. What?....

....so basically you put on your handyman's belt with tools and fix the sh!t out of whatever she wants fixed in the house and then some. You get a shower and all cleaned up and you go out on a date for something good to eat. Give her a few glasses of wine and perhaps a few kisses on her neck. Then without warning you withdraw to go watch sports and ignore her. Even better if you tell her you are not in the mood and that you will just give her a short back rub if she feels needy for attention. Then ask her what kind of shampoo she uses and awkwardly suggest that she may want to try something different (give no explanation as to why). 

If done just right, she will get aggressive and F your brains out!!!!!


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Women's sensitivity to men's relationship history revealed by new "mate copying" study


New research provides evidence that women view a man's romantic history as an indicator of his quality as a potential romantic partner. The findings have been published in the journal Evolutionary Psychological Science. ...



www.psypost.org





Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> Women's sensitivity to men's relationship history revealed by new "mate copying" study
> 
> 
> New research provides evidence that women view a man's romantic history as an indicator of his quality as a potential romantic partner. The findings have been published in the journal Evolutionary Psychological Science. ...
> ...


Interesting, so the gist is women want men who have had successful LTRs, maybe even if they are in one now.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

farsidejunky said:


> Women's sensitivity to men's relationship history revealed by new "mate copying" study
> 
> 
> New research provides evidence that women view a man's romantic history as an indicator of his quality as a potential romantic partner. The findings have been published in the journal Evolutionary Psychological Science. ...
> ...


That's interesting and it makes sense -- if a guy has been in a long relationship, then you know his ultimate goal is most likely to find a real partner again...as opposed to only wanting hookups and to stay single.

It shows his potential as a PARTNER, if that's what a woman is looking for.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

farsidejunky said:


> Women's sensitivity to men's relationship history revealed by new "mate copying" study
> 
> 
> New research provides evidence that women view a man's romantic history as an indicator of his quality as a potential romantic partner. The findings have been published in the journal Evolutionary Psychological Science. ...
> ...


I wonder if it holds true for other cultures as well or just Japan?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> Regarding "XIV. F*** her good" I honestly think that is where many relationships fail in the bedroom. In my opinion it should be removed from the list for long term relationships as it only works for the Pick Up Artist that quickly moves on to another relationship. So the reality is that it works like this for a PUA "XIV. F*** her good one time only and leave her (wanting more)."
> 
> So in a long term relationship, one should not F her good and keep repeating that until she is content and not wanting anymore! Desire needs distance. She needs some space to want it and work for it in order for desire to thrive and be productive in the relationship.
> 
> ...


This is a very dangerous game to play in a relationship where you want openness and to build trust and mutual care and respect. 

And for someone like ME, it would be confusing and scary to be treated this way. This wouldn't get me to respond warmly or excitedly to him, this would send me nervously scurrying away from him into a shell that I might never want to come out from again, at least with the man who made me feel this way. 

Feeling confused and unwanted DOES NOT fuel desire or sexual openness in me, or many women I'm sure.
I need to feel confident with a man in order to express my desire for him openly, and a guy playing this game would destroy any confidence I had in my ability to turn him on.

The part I bolded...well, those women are doing those things because they are desperate and in pain - none of those things are being done out of a healthy desire to attract their husbands...it's from a frantic, insecure, achingly lonely feeling. And any man who wants to create those feelings in me just so he can control my desire is NOT the right guy for me at all.

Maybe it's better for a man to find a woman who he doesn't need to play pretend games with in order to maintain her interest in sex with him.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Women's sensitivity to men's relationship history revealed by new "mate copying" study
> 
> 
> New research provides evidence that women view a man's romantic history as an indicator of his quality as a potential romantic partner. The findings have been published in the journal Evolutionary Psychological Science. ...
> ...


That is interesting...



> The researchers found that the female students tended to rate the man as a more attractive long-term partner when he was described as having a long relationship compared to when he was described as having a short relationship.


A good friend of mine never settled down. He is now middle aged and "trying" to date. He has great success in attracting women and getting one date, but then they always ghost him after that after they see he lives the lifestyle of a hermit with virtually no relationship history.

I guess relationships are a lot like going to the bank and taking out a loan. They want to see your credit history. If after the age of 40 you still have a blank credit report with nothing good or bad on it aside from a lot of people checking your credit, you will NOT get a loan. 

This friend of mine is going to go back to college, so I told him to only focus on making friends (female ones) as part of a study group as a way to get himself out there and improve his chances should someone come along. He however has a crappy attitude and insists my plan is no good.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> This is a very dangerous game to play in a relationship where you want openness and to build trust and mutual care and respect.
> 
> And for someone like ME, it would be confusing and scary to be treated this way. This wouldn't get me to respond warmly....


Imagine a marriage where the man does a lot of wonderful things, takes his wife out on a date, and he anticipates sex that evening. The wife however feels pressured and manipulated as if the whole day was only to get sex. She rejects him and insists she is not in the mood. 

THAT is the reality for some men in long term marriages. While I agree my suggested strategy is dangerous, it sends out a strong and loud signal of, "I love being around you and I am not just using you for sex!" It should relieve any anxiety of her feeling pressured to perform and give her desire a chance to emerge.


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