# Can posters please not condemn WS for the sake of it!



## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

I know I haven't been here too long, so please accept this as a general and genuine observation.

I find it really offensive and unhelpful when posters condemn WS for sharing their views.

They are very necessary to this site for many of the BS to try to understand the WS and in return the WS can see how much they have hurt their BS.

We can surely all help one another, we are all here for one reason...scaring off the WS with nastiness and judgment isn't going to help any one's cause.

 Please

Thank you


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

If a wayward spouse hops on to provide some insight, and share what he or she can to help people in similar situations great.

If they are on the other hand spewing some foggy, rationalized entitlements, I think they can expect some push-back.

I'm impressed with a wayward spouse that would come in here in general, this forum can be a shark tank, and once the sharks get a taste of "fog" its a frenzy.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

You're dealing with hurt, beaten down, angry, betrayed, crushed people. It's going to happen, no matter how nicely you ask for it not to.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

It's sad when people can't see past their own noses in this stuff. Yes, when a wayward is on here flaunting sh-t...well, that's gonna get the wrath. However, when one comes here truly seeking advice, trying to find their way - it sucks pretty bad the reception they sometimes get.

Hell...Regret's first post was pretty tough to read. Lots of anger from so many people. I'm glad I joined a few months later to give my side of the story.

As far as I'm concerned, if a wayward has been on these boards for a while and have a post count higher than a hundred or so, that tells me they are trying.

Sometimes it's tough to step out from behind that Betrayed sign some of us hold and just f'ng listen without putting our own sh-t on it.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

It's that pent up rage coming at you that really discourages those of us that CAN present the other piece of the puzzle for BS's to heal and move forward.

I think if you're carrying THAT much rage in D or R, you're really not healing.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> You're dealing with hurt, beaten down, angry, betrayed, crushed people. It's going to happen, no matter how nicely you ask for it not to.


It only happens because some BS's are very very bitter about what happened to them and haven't allowed themselves to see past that. And because some people tend to hit "Submit Reply" without applying the filter first that they should be applying.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

TCSRedhead said:


> It's that pent up rage coming at you that really discourages those of us that CAN present the other piece of the puzzle for BS's to heal and move forward.
> 
> I think if you're carrying THAT much rage in D or R, you're really not healing.


QFT


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> It only happens because some BS's are very very bitter about what happened to them and haven't allowed themselves to see past that. And because some people tend to hit "Submit Reply" without applying the filter first that they should be applying.


It's completely understandable to be bitter as the BS. I would not begrudge or say that shouldn't be the case. 

If you can't set that aside to hear, listen and process then you'll end up stuck there and that bitterness is likely to carry over in to future relationships.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

TCSRedhead said:


> It's that pent up rage coming at you that really discourages those of us that CAN present the other piece of the puzzle for BS's to heal and move forward.


Plus, those of us who are in R with our WS feel attacked and belittled for making the choice we did to R. We've been exactly where every BS has been and I have never felt the need to attack a WS who is doing what they need to for their BS.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> I know I haven't been here too long, so please accept this as a general and genuine observation.
> 
> I find it really offensive and unhelpful when posters condemn WS for sharing their views.
> 
> ...


I think the reason betrayers get some rough treatment is threefold.

First, betrayers can never comprehend, even for those few who really try, the extent of the damage they have done. For them it was a wild and exciting time that they had to abandon and for the betrayed it's a long term sentence to hell. The dichotomy of the dynamics involved is stunning. That makes most of their posts to have an _appearance_ of being somewhat disingenuous.

Second, betrayers can be somewhat defensive. Now, to be sure, when being treated like a human punching bag around here I get that, but their defensiveness (no matter how justified) seems to be blood in the water and creates a shark feeding frenzy.

Third, I think betrayers who post are sometimes unwittingly acting as triggers for those betrayed and hurting. That creates resentment.

As for me, I try if at all possible to avoid responding much to betrayers (for reasons if I stated I’d breaking my own thoughts in this final paragraph) unless I think I can be constructive. I think I fail now and then, but I do try.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Plus, those of us who are in R with our WS feel attacked and belittled for making the choice we did to R. We've been exactly where every BS has been and I have never felt the need to attack a WS who is doing what they need to for their BS.


I think it's a hard road for a BS to R and open themselves up to someone who has hurt them so badly.

I love that when I first came to TAM, you kicked me in the butt and helped get me moving in the right direction. I really credit quite a few of you in helping us get moving towards reconciliation.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Plus, those of us who are in R with our WS feel attacked and belittled for making the choice we did to R. We've been exactly where every BS has been and I have never felt the need to attack a WS who is doing what they need to for their BS.


:iagree: very true

...and have to say also, some of the people I have become closest to on TAM are WS....they have been my biggest support. 

I am upset, bitter and resentful right now, more than ever before....but i can't let rip at all the WS in general....

You have to think before you post....these WS are here because they want help too, they can hopefully help themselves and help BS. Use them don't abuse them  (I mean that nicely)

Give them a break.

Other wise you're just being rude!


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> Other wise you're just being rude!


But....but........BUT!!!!!




Seriously, sometimes people need to put the adult pants on before wading in the CWI pool. Just sayin...


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

For the most part is really does not happen provided two things are true.
1) the WS is truthful and her Affair and recognizes that she is to blame for failing to do the right thing either by getting a D or ending the A. 

I remember a thread where the WS cheated on her deployed H , had ONS, and was in an EA/PA that she felt she needed to be with someone else. She had toxic friends and believed it was her H fault that she was sleeping around. She did not get one word of sympathy nor did she run away. She took it and fought and fought and then finally broke down and realized how screwed up her situation was and that she was wrong. 


2) The WS is remorseful of her actions and is willing to do whatever is necessary to fix or find redemption. 
Affairs follow a script for the most part and once you read a hundred or so you can pretty must tell what kind of stage of the fog the WS is in. 
If they are deep in the fog, there isn't remorse. They are in the middle of a fantasy and there is not much anyone can do to snap them out of it short of figuring out who they are and exposing them. 

I agree that the WS that do meet the two criteria above and want help don't need to be crucified. Maybe there story is the same as someone else's to a T. Then the BS triggers hard and in hurt,anger , frustration writes exactly how they feel. But I tend not to judge anyone on here. Because in the end most people are here to get help and I see the flaming and antagonizing as a cry for help or a sign that someone is cracking. Not that they are just being mean and spiteful. 
I am not talking about the Trolls either. I am talking about people like Beowolf a long time poster that attributes TAM to saving his marriage and helped a lot of people. He cracked and went over the edge and now is no longer on these boards. It is a shame but I doubt that many people are just condeming WS for the sake of it. I wouldn't be surprised if some my see them and think it is there own WS. This board is setup to help people and sometimes help hurts. Somedaydig I have seen get a little heat with a WS. But the point of the message is that we want people to be happy. We know that an A hurts the BS immensely and we also know that it usually destroy's the WS as well. So we all try to help and I would like to think that a lot of times we do.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

LRgirl said:


> :iagree: very true
> 
> ...and have to say also, some of the people I have become closest to on TAM are WS....they have been my biggest support.
> 
> ...


In this forum, I don't think most BS's are too terribly concerned about coming off as "rude". We're not talking about car parts here.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> I think the reason betrayers get some rough treatment is threefold.
> 
> First, betrayers can never comprehend, even for those few who really try, the extent of the damage they have done. For them it was a wild and exciting time that they had to abandon and for the betrayed it's a long term sentence to hell. The dichotomy of the dynamics involved is stunning. That makes most of their posts to have an _appearance_ of being somewhat disingenuous.
> 
> ...


Wow - you nailed it here.

I'm all for the WS's that come here and genuinely try to help other BS's or figure something out about themselves.

But cheating has consequences. I'm just not convinced WS's get a free pass just because they are here.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> Wow - you nailed it here.
> 
> I'm all for the WS's that come here and genuinely try to help other BS's or figure something out about themselves.
> 
> But cheating has consequences. I'm just not convinced WS's get a free pass just because they are here.


I can assure you I've not had a free pass. 

Here's the difference - I've read and posted in your thread with thoughtful consideration to you and your situation.

You know nothing about me or mine. Please do not presume to judge without that.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> I know I haven't been here too long, so please accept this as a general and genuine observation.
> 
> I find it really offensive and unhelpful when posters condemn WS for sharing their views.
> 
> ...


I agree with your post 100%. I have a pretty thick skin so most of the comments I read here don't offend me. It will take more than a bitter person raging on a forum to run me off, but I definitely worry that people who could be helped won't ever come back. And then I think that there is a BS on the other side who could have benefited from the honest truths (honest, not flaming) their WS would have received. 

I stayed. I revealed my EA at the urging of some good people here. Who knows where I would have been if I didn't have the awesome people posting to me. The blunt, straightforward posts outnumbered the vile, rude ones by about 10 to 1. 

Still, my husband has he right to be angry and beat me up (figuratively) but random strangers on the Internet? No I don't think so.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

The-Deceived said:


> In this forum, I don't think most BS's are too terribly concerned about coming off as "rude". We're not talking about car parts here.


Well spotted, No we are not talking about car parts obviously, we are talking broken hearts and everyone trying to make the best of what we have at any given moment.

I personally can not imagine any WS coming here and posting of their own free will and meaning to cause any offence or harm....they are simply here to read and post as the BS is.

They are here to understand, to learn, to help if they can.

Most posters by-pass posts they can not relate to...and like and respond to the post they can add something to.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not against a healthy debate, but we don't really debate on TAM do we?....it isn't a fight between the WS and BS, we discuss.

We can help one another is all I'm saying.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

LanieB said:


> Anyone who has been reading this forum for a while can easily see that the regular WS's who post here have done/are doing all the heavy lifting and have truly regretted having their affairs and are attempting (and succeeding) in rebuilding their marriages. I would say the main culprits who bash all WS's are BS's who are relatively new to the forum.
> 
> I'm a BS and I have learned so much from reading EI's and TCSRedhead's posts (as well as others). I have a lot of respect for anyone willing to stand up and say "I was wrong, this was my fault, I apologize, and I'm going to learn about everything I need to do to try to make this right. And then I'm going to do those things."
> 
> All I can say is IF I ever become a wayward spouse (God forbid!), I will NOT be posting on TAM!! I don't have thick enough skin for it! If anything, I might read as a spectator only, but even that would be brutal.


:iagree: you nailed it


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

As a former WS I typically don't respond to posts on the infidelity board because I don't think people are really all that interested in what we think. I do think the majority of the advice on here is sound, but I also think that the betrayed spouses on here can be a bit bully like when it comes to how they treat newbies. The board is a good resource but I have noticed a few things on here that are somewhat negative.

1) Reconciliation seems to be discouraged, even more so when a man is the BS
2) If a newbie doesn't swiftly follow all the steps 180, expose, etc, posters start attacking them when they came here for help in the first place

Every situation is different, my wife did a lot of the things recommended on here when she found out about my infidelity except exposure. She didn't want to do that because she didn't want her pride and thoughts about what her friends think to interfere with her decision to stay or go. Had she come on here for advice posters would have ripped her head off for refusing to expose. Even though she followed pretty much everything else on her own.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Said it once, and I'll say it again.

If you're a betrayed spouse posting in CWI, ya better put on your adult pants and don't act like a kid who's ball was stolen from them. This sh-t is hard enough to deal with, without reading people who can't contain their own issues and spew their junk at everyone who they think wronged them.

On my very first post in this joint, I made it clear...Regret hurt ME. Not anyone else. ME. If anyone has a right to be pissed at her and get upset, well that'd be me only. You're just reading words on a computer screen. If'n ya can't see beyond that, then you'll not heal anytime soon.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> As a former WS I typically don't respond to posts on the infidelity board because I don't think people are really all that interested in what we think. I do think the majority of the advice on here is sound, but I also think that the betrayed spouses on here can be a bit bully like when it comes to how they treat newbies. The board is a good resource but I have noticed a few things on here that are somewhat negative.
> 
> 1) Reconciliation seems to be discouraged, even more so when a man is the BS
> 2) If a newbie doesn't swiftly follow all the steps 180, expose, etc, posters start attacking them when they came here for help in the first place
> ...


I personally as a BS listen hard to WS postings if they come across as genuine. WS are the poeple who can show me some vantage point, can answer some of the general questions or give me insight possibly into what my WS was thinking, feeling.

You should post, grow a thick skin....you will soon learn who to read and who to ignore.

It really is helpful to a lot of BS 

Because i seriously doubt anyone who isn't remorseful would turn up here of their own free will.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Unfortunately I've seen both WS',and BS' taking some heavy flack on here.It's too bad,as there is such a wealth of insight from the majority who post in CWI.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

TBT said:


> Unfortunately I've seen both WS',and BS' taking some heavy flack on here.It's too bad,as there is such a wealth of insight from the majority who post in CWI.


Spot on, TBT. Spot on.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

It's a tough topic TAM addresses. There are as many stories as there are posters, with all the unknown twists and turns that are left out for brevity and so on. It's an emotional topic. It addresses being stabbed in the most vulnerable part of your being. It's going to invite some emotional responses. 

That's fair, I think. But the main reason I believe most of us are here is because we either fvcked up or the other person fvcked up, or both... and we're trying to find answers to questions. Answers that are really hard to find on your own sometimes. We're here to become better people.

As humans on the internet, there is so much potential for disregard of respect... it's just some anonymous person posting here. Who cares? Flame the bastards, there's no accountability!! But here, due to the emotional topic and the real efforts people are trying to make to solve problems mutually, all of us together, I find TAM to be one of the kindest, most REAL places on the internet I've ever seen.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

It's because they mistake everyone else's wayward wife for their wayward wife.

A lot of the barbed, rude "ban me if you dare!" style of remarks are, I think, what some posters wish they had the b*lls to say to their own WS when it would have perhaps made a difference.

But instead they take their bitterness out on some other wayward.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> It's because they mistake everyone else's wayward wife for their wayward wife.
> 
> A lot of the barbed, rude "ban me if you dare!" style of remarks are, I think, what some posters wish they had the b*lls to say to their own WS when it would have perhaps made a difference.
> 
> But instead they take their bitterness out on some other wayward.


So why can't they take it out on their own WS? I do and often!! I wouldn't presume to take it out on someone else's WS unless they were a complete and utter gob sh1te! 

We have to be more tolerant of one another is all.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> So why can't they take it out on their own WS?


Fear.

Of themselves...their wayward...their situation.

Much, much easier to lash out at the masses than take stock in their personal lives.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> It's because they mistake everyone else's wayward wife for their wayward wife.
> 
> A lot of the barbed, rude "ban me if you dare!" style of remarks are, I think, what some posters wish they had the b*lls to say to their own WS when it would have perhaps made a difference.
> 
> But instead they take their bitterness out on some other wayward.


I think you very right M&M.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> So why can't they take it out on their own WS? I do and often!! I wouldn't presume to take it out on someone else's WS unless they were a complete and utter gob sh1te!
> 
> We have to be more tolerant of one another is all.


*Because they probably don't even know where their ex wife is?*


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> Said it once, and I'll say it again.
> 
> If you're a betrayed spouse posting in CWI, ya better put on your adult pants and don't act like a kid who's ball was stolen from them. This sh-t is hard enough to deal with, without reading people who can't contain their own issues and spew their junk at everyone who they think wronged them.
> 
> On my very first post in this joint, I made it clear...Regret hurt ME. Not anyone else. ME. If anyone has a right to be pissed at her and get upset, well that'd be me only. You're just reading words on a computer screen. If'n ya can't see beyond that, then you'll not heal anytime soon.


You have your own agenda just like everyone else on this site. 

The adult pants goes for WS's as well. 

If I'm so harsh and brutal on the WS's, I'm sure I'll get banned (again). If that's the case, I'll be happy to take my big boi pants and go home.

Until then, I'll continue to speak my mind. I am not concerned about hurting any cheater's feelings.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

I don't think this is so cut and dried 

Obviously wading in attacking somebody for the hell of it is plain stupid 

However there are few ws I have read that cannot help but be provocative, a bit arrogant, deffering of blame, about their actions and for me they need to be clear about what they are seeking from being on here.

Most of us are betrayed and will naturally feel embittered after our experiences and for me although not blasting away from the hip I do feel a dose of reality is a good thing for the wayward.

Look at it this way - how are they going to comprehend the colossal destruction they wreak if they are not told.

As I think has been mentioned one can tell the truly genuine remorseful waywards after a page or two and of course if they can be 'helped' and understand what exactly they have done then that is what they deserve - help and understanding.

.....but frankly some of them, well...


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> You have your own agenda just like everyone else on this site.
> 
> The adult pants goes for WS's as well.
> 
> ...


Have at it and enjoy purgatory, then, man. So much easier to be free of ill will towards others, IMO.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> I know I haven't been here too long, so please accept this as a general and genuine observation.
> 
> I find it really offensive and unhelpful when posters condemn WS for sharing their views.
> 
> ...


As a former WS, I came to TAM, almost a year ago, while still clearly in the fog. Oddly enough, I knew that I was "in the fog," but simply acknowledging it, even to oneself, isn't the same as having the ability to just "snap out of it." If only it were that easy...... I was seeking help, answers, understanding (understanding, not only for myself but for my BS, as well.) You don't have to "take my word for that," you would need only to read my original thread which is buried deeply somewhere in the many threads of TAM. I was seeking a greater understanding of what I was experiencing so that I might better understand myself and consequently become more capable of helping my BS heal regardless of the outcome of our marriage. I was also seeking direction from other BS's as to just how I might best help him heal. 

For the first few weeks I spent a great deal of time fending off verbal assaults that served no worthwhile purpose (unless being a whipping post for bitter and angry people is a worthwhile purpose.) I'm not saying that constructive criticism wasn't in order, but telling me that I was worthless as a human being, not a good mother, not worthy of compassion from others, not capable of feeling compassion for others, not a decent person, that I never had been and never would be, that my feelings did not matter and that my wants and previously unmet needs were now inconsequential, added nothing to my desire to learn from my poor choices and to become a better person who would never again be willing (not capable, because I believe that everyone is capable) to resort to infidlity as a means of coping with my unhappiness. My all-time (un)favorite was that I no longer had ANY rights in my marriage. 

Well, let me say that I am extremely grateful that my husband, yes, the very husband that I had betrayed, didn't agree with any of that. If he had, he and I would not be nearly a year into what is turning into a very happy, healthy marriage...... something we had not had for many, many years prior to my infidelity.

In time, I did manage to work through my own feelings of anger, bitterness and resentment for, what was then, unresolved issues in our marriage prior to my affair. So many on TAM kept insisting that my feelings didn't matter..... But, they mattered to me, and if B1 still loved me and wanted to attempt to reconcile, he knew that what mattered to me needed to matter to him, too. And, vice-versa. Unless and until B1 and I could deal with the issues that preceded my affair, we couldn't clear the way to focus on the damage I caused by my affair. We had so many years and so many layers of dysfunction to work through. That's what WE chose to do in spite of B1 being told, repeatedly, by the TAMers, that he needed to divorce me and find a younger, hotter, better, and faithful wife. 

Reconciliation doesn't happen overnight, just like marriages usually don't break down overnight. More often than not, true remorse, regret, guilt, complete ownership of the blame for the infidelity and a genuine desire to make amends is not going to be present on D-Day. Although a BS has every right to decide against attempting reconciliation, if they choose to attempt reconciliation, then time, patience and understanding are going to be their friends. But, they *must* have firm boundaries and let their WS's know what the result of violating those boundaries are. 

A WS respects the BS who is not willing to rug sweep. Rug sweeping is easy, but it is ineffective in the long run. Working through the fractured marriage, the pain, the betrayal, and the devastation after the betrayal is the only healthy path to healing.

B1 joined TAM a day or two after I did and posted his own thread. He found himself in the unenviable position of "defending the character" of his WS, all while he was still in a state of stunned disbelief, himself. Had he not joined and been there for me to "fend off " those needless, unhelpful, unnecessarily cruel and mostly inaccurate accusations, I don't think that I would have stuck around long enough to get the very real help that I/we eventually found. Help that proved to be more beneficial than all of our IC and MC combined. Help that we both credit with not only saving our marriage, but help that has made our marriage and family stronger, happier and healthier than ever. And that doesn't just affect B1 and myself, but our 5 children, their SO's, our grandson, and our extended family, as well. I can't help but wonder just how many desperate, hurting, people in need were run off before they could find the help they needed.

If you aren't a part of the solution, then you're a part of the problem. 

Thank you, LRgirl, for posting this thread. I've read several of your threads (backed away from a few for this very reason) and I so admire your strength and determination as you seek answers regarding infidelity and its affects on your own marriage. I think you are nothing short of amazing and I do hope that your WS steps up to the plate and realizes what a gift he has in you. If not, you're going to be okay..... because you are simply that awesome!


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> You have your own agenda just like everyone else on this site.
> 
> The adult pants goes for WS's as well.
> 
> ...


Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about whether you hurt my feelings or not. I have a pretty thick skin and have taken my fair share of it here on TAM. That said, I think the way you're going about attacking others who ARE trying to help.

Your anger and attacks further keep those who WOULD be able to help and point WS' in the right direction away. Nice job! :smthumbup:

ETA - if folks have genuine questions, feel free to PM me and I'll respond. I don't find this type of interaction productive.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

EI said:


> As a former WS, I came to TAM, almost a year ago, while still clearly in the fog. Oddly enough, I knew that I was "in the fog," but simply acknowledging it, even to oneself, isn't the same as having the ability to just "snap out of it." If only it were that easy...... I was seeking help, answers, understanding.....


Well its great to know of a reconciliation that is going well. Well done both of you.

I have a question for you though about when you first came on here. As you say you were pilloried when you arrived and I have no doubt you encountered some vicious and completely non helpful 'advice'.

However there is a fine line between anger bitterness / vitriol abuse etc and I wonder did any of the vehemence thrown against you, even when it was really hardcore actually help you realize and understand the depth of the hurt and suffering a betrayed goes through when on the receiving end of adultery?

Trouble is I do feel there is a line where unless there is some impartation of that feeling then the wayward will simply never 'get it'

I don't justify simply offensive meaningless slating but there has to be some intensity of feeling about it from the betrayed or else the message to the wayward simply doesn't come across.

Would you not in some sense agree with that EI?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

EI said:


> For the first few weeks I spent a great deal of time fending off verbal assaults that served no worthwhile purpose (unless being a whipping post for bitter and angry people is a worthwhile purpose.) I'm not saying that constructive criticism wasn't in order, but telling me that I was worthless as a human being, not a good mother, not worthy of compassion from others, not capable of feeling compassion for others, not a decent person, that I never had been and never would be, that my feelings did not matter and that my wants and previously unmet needs were now inconsequential, added nothing to my desire to learn from my poor choices and to become a better person who would never again be willing (not capable, because I believe that everyone is capable) to resort to infidlity as a means of coping with my unhappiness. My all-time (un)favorite was that I no longer had ANY rights in my marriage.


Great post, you said it much better than I did. Basically there is a very loud vocal minority who only post personal insults. Its almost like they would prefer to see a BS reduce a WS's life to rubble rather than reconcile. Regardless of the situation their advice is always the same. They are hammers and to them every scenario is a nail.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> Great post, you said it much better than I did. Basically there is a very loud vocal minority who only post personal insults. Its almost like they would prefer to see a BS reduce a WS's life to rubble rather than reconcile. Regardless of the situation their advice is always the same. They are hammers and to them every scenario is a nail.


Yes,there are WS's who "get it",and work their ass off to repair everything and have a good Marriage.
EI is one of those.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

calvin said:


> Yes,there are WS's who "get it",and work their ass off to repair everything and have a good Marriage.
> EI is one of those.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hear CSS is, too.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

LanieB said:


> There's all this "Man-Up!" and "Be an Alpha!" and "Do this IMMEDIATELY!!" going on all the time, which could be helpful - to a point. Extremes, in my opinion, are unhelpful. Yes, if you're a doormat, you should definitely "man-up", but the polar opposite of doormat probably isn't the answer. BUT I'm a chick, so what do I know . . .


I have seen those posts. I do think working on yourself is beneficial, but I also think this advice is too premature sometimes. Is it realistic to expect a man that has just had his whole world shattered to "man-up"? I've even seem some BSs scolded for behaving like a cuckhold, even though they are barely past their D-Day.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Yes, RH...unfortunately, some think by saying a BS is a cuckhold that it will shock them into some kind of mythical place of confidence. It usually doesn't. As a matter of fact, it shocks them into a mythical place of happiness where they think working out and getting a hot girlfriend ends it all.

Yet...they still post hatred here. Makes one wonder how "happy" they really are.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> You have your own agenda just like everyone else on this site.
> 
> The adult pants goes for WS's as well.
> 
> ...


Well perhaps you *should* be?:scratchhead:

What's the point in deliberately hurting someone else? What? Because you got cheated on, you feel entitled to take a cyber pop at someone else's WS? :wtf:

I have spoken my mind to people who are in the fog. Not to hurt their feelings, but to help them see a way through the fog.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> I hear CSS is, too.


She isn't the only one,Regret,Changing Me, and there are others but I'm drawing a blank right now.
Stupid doobie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> It really is helpful to a lot of BS
> 
> Because i seriously doubt anyone who isn't remorseful would turn up here of their own free will.


Absolutely it is helpful! Especially for the recently betrayed. I had a lot of questions for Waywards when I first arrived here. And I found it TOTALLY unhelpful, irritating, pointless, infuriating, that they would just get run out of town like a baddie in a cowboy film.

As for the 2nd point, my Wayward has never come here. Even when sent the odd post to read. He certainly hasn't looked for insight, whether free will or hints and tips direction from his Misses! Hmmmm 

Mind you, I thought we had turned a big corner recently. Seems not. The ex has begun being an ex again! Blah!


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

LanieB said:


> I've noticed this also. The number of BH's outnumber the BW's on this forum, and there is a group of BH's who definitely push D more than R, simply because they can't imagine a man wanting to continue a marriage with a wife who screwed another man. Those threads can be painful to read!
> 
> There's all this "Man-Up!" and "Be an Alpha!" and "Do this IMMEDIATELY!!" going on all the time, which could be helpful - to a point. Extremes, in my opinion, are unhelpful. Yes, if you're a doormat, you should definitely "man-up", but the polar opposite of doormat probably isn't the answer. BUT I'm a chick, so what do I know . . .


They may be painful to read, but human betrayal at it's worst is an incredibly painful thing for both men & women. I think people who reconcile are great but I certainly also support divorce for betrayers.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

TBT said:


> ....there is such a wealth of insight from the majority who post in CWI.


This! 

I am going to requote this over and again so that it irritates all who reads it but is seared into minds. I will turn this into 185 pages just by reposting. My whole evening will consist of pressing the quote button and reposting this post because this is the essence of all that this site is.

And that is why it is infuriating when people get blasted unnecessarily, BS and Wayward alike. So much to learn and gain.

It takes a while to get used to a forum such as this. So newcomers really do need to be handled appropriately if they are just not getting 'it'. I went through 2 forums before I found this one, and this was the most objective, refreshing, and straight talking so I stayed, I liked it.... Maybe sometimes a little too straight talking though, hence the subject of the thread.

..... though I think I have had a moment or 2 at that role also! I would like to think I was never rude though. Just straight talking.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> They may be painful to read, but human betrayal at it's worst is an incredibly painful thing for both men & women. I think people who reconcile are great but I certainly also support divorce for betrayers.


I agree 100%, man. There is a huge f'ng difference in a wayward who just doesn't get it and one who has. I have posted quite a few times here when I think that divorce is the way to healing, because sometimes THAT is what it is going to take. Reconciliation is NOT for every adulterous action, that is for sure. I try to support the betrayed in every situation...however, I also do my best to help those who are on the fence understand the decision they must make.

Either decision is a life long one. Never, for a minute take it lightly. Each is a difficult road to healing the heart of the betrayed.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> Regardless of the situation [some poster's] advice is always the same. They are hammers and to them every scenario is a nail.


Beautifully written. So true!


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

EI said:


> Thank you, LRgirl, for posting this thread. I've read several of your threads (backed away from a few for this very reason) and I so admire your strength and determination as you seek answers regarding infidelity and its affects on your own marriage. I think you are nothing short of amazing and I do hope that your WS steps up to the plate and realizes what a gift he has in you. If not, you're going to be okay..... because you are simply that awesome!


:iagree::smthumbup::iagree:


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> I personally can not imagine any WS coming here and posting of their own free will and meaning to cause any offence or harm....they are simply here to read and post as the BS is.
> 
> They are here to understand, to learn, to help if they can.


Unfortunately, I have seen a few such posts. They don't happen often, but they DO happen. The ones who stick around are the ones who wake up to their behavior and change, rather than trying to justify.

I came here as both WS and BS. I have stayed because some of the newer posters, I have been able to reach out to and help.... even when others say I am abrasive.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

EI said:


> As a former WS, I came to TAM, almost a year ago, while still clearly in the fog. Oddly enough, I knew that I was "in the fog," but simply acknowledging it, even to oneself, isn't the same as having the ability to just "snap out of it." If only it were that easy...... I was seeking help, answers, understanding (understanding, not only for myself but for my BS, as well.) You don't have to "take my word for that," you would need only to read my original thread which is buried deeply somewhere in the many threads of TAM. I was seeking a greater understanding of what I was experiencing so that I might better understand myself and consequently become more capable of helping my BS heal regardless of the outcome of our marriage. I was also seeking direction from other BS's as to just how I might best help him heal.
> 
> For the first few weeks I spent a great deal of time fending off verbal assaults that served no worthwhile purpose (unless being a whipping post for bitter and angry people is a worthwhile purpose.) I'm not saying that constructive criticism wasn't in order, but telling me that I was worthless as a human being, not a good mother, not worthy of compassion from others, not capable of feeling compassion for others, not a decent person, that I never had been and never would be, that my feelings did not matter and that my wants and previously unmet needs were now inconsequential, added nothing to my desire to learn from my poor choices and to become a better person who would never again be willing (not capable, because I believe that everyone is capable) to resort to infidlity as a means of coping with my unhappiness. My all-time (un)favorite was that I no longer had ANY rights in my marriage.
> 
> ...


I am not sure you would be where you are if there were not the negative side, watching your story I saw changes in you that led to the great person your are today and the marriage you now created.

If the board changed it would cease helping anyone in an attempt to help everyone.

I do not think we need to take away negative but add more positive support.

Now personal attacks have no place within any discussion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Well its great to know of a reconciliation that is going well. Well done both of you.
> 
> I have a question for you though about when you first came on here. As you say you were pilloried when you arrived and I have no doubt you encountered some vicious and completely non helpful 'advice'.
> 
> ...



That is such a valid question that I want to be able to give you a well thought out and honest answer. The very hurtful comments that I was referring to in my previous post were made by a small but determined minority. There was one poster, who has since been permanently banned (not because of me) who I felt like had a personal vendetta against me and, at times, I literally thought I was going to lose my mind because of his never ending verbal assaults directed specifically towards me. He would launch thread after thread just to lash out at me... I'm not making that up.... There are several TAMers who will remember and know exactly who I'm referring to. I called B1 at work one day last Fall in hysterics. He had to leave work to come home early just to calm me down. And, I'm not that easily rattled. This man's words left me feeling that I was beyond redemption and had me considering divorce (though B1 and I had both decided to attempt reconciliation) because HE KNEW that I would cheat again??? :scratchhead: "I" was quite sure, at that point, that I wouldn't..... But he insisted, over and over, that I would. I started believing that it "must be true" because someone from TAM said so. When you're already in a low place, psychologically, you can become very susceptible to what others think and say about you. There were a lot of people on TAM defending me, at that point, but I became genuinely fearful that he must have seen something in me that the others didn't, not even myself. B1 didn't want to talk about divorce, so I began to consider suicide. At that time, I began receiving a lot of pm's of support from others on TAM who could see how hard I was working on my reconciliation and the negative effects his attacks were having on me. 

B1 and I were, and still are, working so hard on putting ourselves, our lives, and our marriage back together and what that poster did to me..... for twisted reasons of his own, in no way had any positive effect on my reconciliation with B1. His reason for being "convinced" of my insincerity was that when asked why I chose to have an affair, I answered the question as completely, as honestly, and with as much understanding of it as I, myself, had at the time. He felt that I was making excuses, while I was simply telling my story. WS's are often asked to share the details of their story and then they are attacked when they do so. There is never an excuse for an affair, but there are always reasons. When a BS or WS decides whether or not they want to attempt to reconcile, those reasons matter and must be taken into consideration. 

I did gain a better understanding from the many BS's on TAM about the gut wrenching pain they felt when they were betrayed. It helped me tremendously in understanding B1's pain better. It was harder for me to comprehend his pain or even believe he was in pain, because my own judgement was so clouded with regard to him after so many years of an unhappy, dysfunctional, and broken marriage. I was still too bitter towards him, early on, for issues in our marriage, prior to my infidelity, to even believe that he was in pain. I learned from reading the stories of the other BS's and then I began to understand my own BS better. 

Last summer, on the Reconciliation thread, a group of BS's and WS's began an open, honest, and respectful dialogue with one another. It has given so many of us an opportunity to learn things from each another that we would never have learned if we were only interested in finger-pointing, name calling, and casting judgment. It has allowed my marriage to not only survive, but thrive. I am so very grateful for every single BS and WS on that thread who devotes their time and energy into the give and take, the encouragement, the inspiration, and the wealth of knowledge that has become the " R" thread. The "good" people of TAM have helped us so much. I try to do the same when I can.

I've have made posts on threads where I have had ten people thank me for my honesty, and three condemn me for my nerve.... all for the same comment.  I, usually, retreat and go back to the safety of the "R" thread. Partly because I don't want to offend or hurt any BS, and partly because their harsh words hurt me, too. I know "they" (those saying the harsh words) don't care if they hurt the "Waywards," because they often state that in their many posts. But, we care if we get hurt and we have feelings, families, and lives, too. Allowing bitter strangers on the Internet to berate us is not in any way helping "our" families heal. It's just unfortunate that it often discourages us from responding to those whom really are interested in what we have to say.

Sometimes, I think that anything short of a public stoning, or locking WS's up and throwing away the key, would fail to satisfy certain posters. I think that is a greater reflection of their own demons than of my personal character.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

calvin said:


> Yes,there are WS's who "get it",and work their ass off to repair everything and have a good Marriage.
> EI is one of those.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, Calvin....  I'm trying.....


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Everyone's story is different. Everyone has to make their decision to D or R. I made mine 1000 times.

No relationship between any set of two people is the same but you do see common threads. I don't remember seeing a lot of successes in the 'You can't nice your way through this' thread. When I was reading Wrathful's post about how he had the OM tell him what was going on, I thought that must be hard, but it also must be nice because I was TT for months... To have irrefutable proof at the outset and not be waylaid, what an interesting thought...

People have kids and no kids. Wife, husbands etc...

The common points are the betrayer after DDay is usually an emotional shell of their former self. Their WW has usually already checked out... not all, some are still there, some are psycho...

However the ones who calculated what they were doing have an escape. Unfortunately this board is full of BH. The first thing men have to do is suck it up. It is hard to hear. My buddy who went through his D long before me told me this and it was excruciating but it was mandatory. There is no being nice. It was more of a business at the end.

I was desperately in love with my wife and wanted my family but she chose OM over me. Looking back I see the mistakes I made and the successes I had. I was nice to her. I did try to nice her back. It was odd, because I was becoming a far stronger man in every way than what I was but it was me being nice to her that sealed my fate.

She absolutely saw that as weakness. There is a difference in manning up than being a Neanderthal. My Ex was a SAHM. I did everything. Worked, Kids practices... I had a lot of hurt then I had a lot of anger... I try not to unleash it on people unfairly but I also

BS have to become strong fast... One, they are entering a game outgunned and outmatched and 10 moves behind usually. Need to catch up quick. They need to protect themselves. My EX wanted me to move out, pay alimony and child support, not let me see the kids and have OM move in basically. I know personally two people who didn't hire a lawyer for Divorce proceedings because they were so betrayed and delusional about who they were still married to, they lost everything. 

If you don't get your mind wrapped around being strong and prepared in court then I have to say you are a fool.

Now you can sit here and wallow in self pity and self loathing and berate yourself about how bad you have it or you can realize life goes on. Do things for yourself. It is very tough. There are people here who will coddle and people here who will tell them to man up. Honestly most people need both. They have to heal but they have to get strong too. They need to get strong because they can get cleaned out in court, lose their job, family, loved ones... I had a group of friends I leaned heavily on.

I'm definitely a man up person. Semper-Fi. It's funny though. I was talking to my gf and she wished me happy mother's day because I do more motherly stuff for my kids than my EX. I cook, clean, sew etc... My gf picks out clothes when we go shopping for the kids... I'm terrible at certain things.

Also I am a BS. I have a tremendous respect for WS who come on here and who give really good insight. It's good to see the big picture. However, I also believe every person is different. Some come here and just whine. Some seek answers. Some vent.

This board is therapy for me. I look for insight on how to be the best father I can. I look to see how divorce can mess kids up and what I can do to avoid it. I also try to give my opinion on what works and what doesn't because the success threads tend to hold to a good general pattern.

R or D is an individual choice. Some WS are very helpful. Some are great examples of What NOT to do... Some people will let their WS walk all over them. Some will kick them out first hint of betrayal.

I personally don't believe in Divorce. I am divorced but I was never given the choice neither were my boys. The funny thing for me was I was actually granted the divorce from my wife. She filed as she was having an affair with neighbor to my left. She then and now is seeing neighbor to my right. I reached a point of yeah, I have to go against my core beliefs and I'm done. Everyone has their point of no return. 

I don't agree with everyone on this board. This is a board for adults. Some people get on my nerves with their posts... They always complain... The people who want pity and like to mope... Yeah, that is a bit childish to me... I understand people expressing about how they are feeling but a lot of times they ask 'how to cope'... complaining to complain... that's just annoying. Whatever... I like so many here have been through a lot. I think I can take criticism and different personalities.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> You have your own agenda just like everyone else on this site.
> 
> The adult pants goes for WS's as well.
> 
> ...


You post on how well you are doing, why all the anger?

The anger will kill you. As long as you have it, you will never heal.

You will learn a lot from EI.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm new here as well, but I dig this place. The one problem I have with this forum is that some posters seem to be too busy grinding their own axe to listen, talk, and truly help others.

As long as the WS is remorseful and thinking clearly, rather than spewing entitlement and rationalizations as someone else said earlier, having both viewpoints should be a welcome commodity for a forum devoted to infidelity. For a WS to stay here would take courage as well, so you have to respect that. 

That said, don't expect those of us who were on the losing end of infidelity, which I suspect to be the majority of posters here, to pat you on the back and say thank you after each post. Let's be real: You're going to catch some flack.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm throwing in my two cents worth here, and I'm going to speak from my view as a long, LONG, *LONG* time TAM member. I was here I think before EI, Regret, and CSS even cheated! And I've been here since January 2010, which is about three years after I cheated myself. Speaking as the someone who was pretty much the lone Disloyal who stayed on the forum, my main thought is that for all these years I have understood why Loyal Spouses condemn "all Disloyals" or generalize...and yes I mean that I do literally understand. I have been the Loyal Spouse--I know the devastation! But I also understand that very often when a person is betrayed on this level, one of they ways they try to heal is to sometimes look for things they can control in order to "make sure it never happens again." 

I'll give you an example: a rape victim. In real life I have been a rape crisis counselor, and what often happens is that the victim will want to put up a bunch of locks if the rapist broke down their door...or they'll cut their hair if their rapist said he liked their hair....or they'll wear big, baggy clothing if they were raped while all dressed up in a flattering outfit. PART of the reason is that they were put in a position that was traumatic and control was taken away from them. Their own life was no longer under their control!! And now, as a way of coping and healing, the rape victim will want to think "Well I got raped because I didn't have a lock; therefore, if I have 8 locks I can prevent that from happening again." See what I mean? In real life that's not true: you can't prevent a rape sometimes! Or they'll want to think "Well if I hadn't been wearing that skin-tight black leather skirt, I wouldn't have been raped, so now I'll prevent rape by dressing in unattractive gray sweats 3 sizes too big." Nope--in real life it's just the victim's way of trying to regain the control that was violently taken from them. 

In a way, it's the same for a Loyal Spouse. They FEEL like their life has been violently traumatized and to reclaim some of the control over their own life, they might say: "Well anyone who would do this is heartless and moral depraved, incapable of being a decent human being; therefore, I can keep this from happening by only associating with moral, decent, kind people." Sort of see the similarity? So I do get that OFTEN (not always...but a good amount of the time) when a Loyal Spouse paints with those broad, general strokes, they are attempting to find some way to get a hold of the trauma of their own life. 

BUT what I can also so, that is probably the saddest thing I can think of to say, is that I know FOR A FACT, that some Disloyals come here, and at first their mind is not and will not be "clear" and in reality...but some could be spoken to and taught and encouraged to think about reality IF THEY WERE NOT RUN OFF. I think of someone whom I greatly admire now, AnnieAsh, as a very good example. When she first got here (now, I love ya Annie ) she was pretty fogged-in and thinking pretty fantasy kind of thoughts about her OM. But you know how you could tell she was reachable/teachable? She told the truth. The truth is, in the moment the Disloyals think it's real love. The truth is that somewhere inside their head is this teeny, tiny voice thinking, "Well maybe I shouldn't, but I don't know!" The truth is that they have pretty much drunk the koolaide and talked themselves into it! But if you can tell them the truth back in response to their fantasies, and they can reply back with their honest thoughts and feelings without fear of being ridiculed...well look at AnnieAsh! She talked and talked and talked all about all her reasons why she shouldn't tell her husband the truth and why she should continue on with the OM because he was such a better match. And yet because she could talk through it, and have all the fantasies pointed out as fake, and have reality shown to her, and have a respectful rebuttal...she was able to see (and choose) on her own to stop because what she was doing was wrong. AND THEN, she had encouragement to help her do the right thing!!! 

See...when Loyal Spouses paint the broad stroke what they don't understand, perhaps, is that they are possibly causing someone else to miss the chance to have their "almost DS" talked down off the cliff... or encouraged to stop at the earliest chance. Now, some Disloyals just ARE unrepentant. That's how it is, and those folks stick with their fog and pay the price, and it is COSTLY!! But to me, I would work day and night to keep the "almost DS" from diving off that cliff! There are plenty of toxic people in the world who will tell a Disloyal "you deserve better" or "do what makes you happy" and there are DARN FEW who will tell them "you don't deserve to continue hurting, but then again, you built a marriage that hurts you and you can build one that is loving and in which you'll thrive" or "it is cool to want to be happy, but you don't want to be happy at the expense of your family and your children and your past and your future; instead pursue happiness by building a marriage that is intimate and loving!" Someone has GOT to tell these Disloyals who are teetering on the edge that it is okay to stop the flirting if they kinda think it's wrong. Someone has GOT to encourage them to be brave and do what they know is right, even if it's scary. 

I would love to see TAM be a place like that, but ... well we'll see.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

I consider many former waywards to be some of our *most valued members*. It takes a lot of strength and compassion to come on to a site like this where there is a LOT of anger projection, to help those BSs who are in need. For that, they have my admiration and respect. Members like Entropy3000, Affaircare, Maricha75, Jellybeans, TCSRedhead, etc, etc. If I've failed to list a few names, know that I you have my respect.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

OK, just my two cents.

As a BS I am much more paranoid, untrusting person now than I used to be. I have zero trust to newly arrived WS even if (or especially if) they say all the book-right stuff from the beginning. Yes I don't engage into insults, but certainly often come across as grumpy and perhaps cynical towards public displays of remorse drama.

TAM is an interesting place, and yes we have here a bit of mob mentality. Sometimes a thread starts on Monday with everyone tearing a WS apart, yet by Friday on it's 63rd page everyone commends the WS for finally getting it.

And in three months the BS is back to announce they were in the false R.

Some WS do give a good vibe, but then I'm afraid to jinx it with cheering


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

The advice of WSs who are remorseful and truly understand the pain they caused to their BSs is a treasures to the forum in understanding the the reasons for their A, Their thinking process at that time, even the ways how they hide their A from BSs but many posting here first time docent belong to this category, many rationalize, many consider themselves entitled, many dont get the gravity of what they have done these posters often got some 2x4.

This is an infidelity forum most of the members here are BSs, they belong to different part of the world, with different culture, different views about infidelity and sex, so these bitterness or 2x4 comments are expected. 
Take what is good for you and leave the rest. TAM wont do the job of a councilor, it is only useful for getting some perspectives from different people, some knowledge about what they are in, how to handle the situation in a better way, to gather knowledge. 

Almost all the WSs posting here start their post by saying Dont Judge me from what I have done now, this is an internet forum people will judge you from what you wrote here, even if the other person sitting is Mother Theressa (I dont know any person better than her so her name is used) people will judge by what she is writing.

Then I am not against R but how many WSs of the BSs posts here are like EI or Regret? Then how can we advice them to R? 


Also WSs who are posting here may be remorseful or feeling terrible for what they have done but the way of writing makes BSs as well as WSs feel that WS dont get the the gravity of what they have done or still rationalizing brings some hard comments.

Almost all the members here are gone through this hell, they know what is going to happen next unlike the WSs or BSs posting here. When we foresee something and WSs or BSs couldn't see that coming, may agitate people and say something in a hard way in the hope that it will wake them quickly. its not because we are bitter but it is because we are anxious and care for them.


But I can say one thing for sure, if TAM was there to help me during my first D day and reconciliation I may have been still married to my exW.


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## JustGrinding (Oct 26, 2012)

*Can posters please not condemn WS for the sake of it!*

If certain posters believe that others are posting in violation of the TAM Terms of Service. can they please report it to a moderator and refrain from telling other posters how to post?

Thank you.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

JustGrinding said:


> *Can posters please not condemn WS for the sake of it!*
> 
> If certain posters believe that others are posting in violation of the TAM Terms of Service. can they please report it to a moderator and refrain from telling other posters how to post?
> 
> Thank you.


Are you telling me?


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

AC, thank you! I definitely admit to living in a fantasy world in which Husband Bad, Om Good. It was extremely beneficial to spew and vent here and sort of arrange my thoughts and feelings. I got to articulate what I wanted from my marriage. And I got to TELL people why I married my husband. It reminded me why I fell for him in the first place. 

We have a long way to go. I'm still figuratively screaming for my husband to pay attention to me. But this time around, I have a place to turn that is relatively safe (TAM) rather than seeking comfort in a "friendship" that violates my marriage and my vows. 

I think lots of WS would benefit from a sounding board and honest feedback. I did. I do! But I won't be a placeholder for a random person floating in the ether. The only punches I am going to take are my husband's.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

I was originally going to post a long list of truths that the bitter BSers on TAM refuse to hear, but why bother?

Anything which does not fit into their tidy world view can be pigeonholed into 'The Fog' or 'False R', or 'You don't know what you are talking about.'

Well...as a WS, I DO know what I am talking about. I know what worked WELL in my R and I appreciate my wife's NON-TAM tactics more every day.

In fact, looking at it, MOST of the people who have had semi successful R's (Wazza, MattMatt, EI, etc) have NOT followed TAM guidelines...or modified them significantly.

Does anyone take a lesson from that? Few and fewer.

It is quite refreshing to actually hear some honesty. The Deceived thinks that hurting the feelings of WS makes the angels laugh.

I think that is a signficant part of some of the posts here: taking painful pot shots at A WS...even if it can't be your own. The WS hurt someone so they need to suffer and crawl. Any other way to R is 'rugsweeping'. Harsh truths replace healing truths.

So, I will continue to give my opinion. I will call people on their bad behavior. I can think of three threads where an R was destroyed by the actions of the BS or a BS driven from R or from the board, never to return for the wonderful 'Truths' he was subjected to. And for every BS run off, there are three WS.

Some of them could have been rescued. Most of the bitter BS trolls don't see their departure as any great loss. As the child of a divorce, I beg to differ with them.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> But I also understand that very often when a person is betrayed on this level, one of they ways they try to heal is to sometimes look for things they can control in order to "make sure it never happens again."


Very, very true. 

Having had a divorce thrust at me at high speed and only then learnt about all the betrayal I felt that my nice ordered world had been spun out of control - and I had absolutely no choice in the matter. So trying to regain some semblance of which was was up, and trying to exert a little bit of control over my own life, was paramount. And still is, months later, when I am still living someone else's agenda for my life. 

But learning to give up trying to control what we can't control has been one of the biggest life lessons for me. 




Affaircare said:


> BUT what I can also so, that is probably the saddest thing I can think of to say, is that I know FOR A FACT, that some Disloyals come here, and at first their mind is not and will not be "clear" and in reality...but some could be spoken to and taught and encouraged to think about reality IF THEY WERE NOT RUN OFF. I think of someone whom I greatly admire now, AnnieAsh, as a very good example. When she first got here (now, I love ya Annie ) she was pretty fogged-in and thinking pretty fantasy kind of thoughts about her OM. But you know how you could tell she was reachable/teachable? She told the truth. The truth is, in the moment the Disloyals think it's real love. The truth is that somewhere inside their head is this teeny, tiny voice thinking, "Well maybe I shouldn't, but I don't know!" The truth is that they have pretty much drunk the koolaide and talked themselves into it! But if you can tell them the truth back in response to their fantasies, and they can reply back with their honest thoughts and feelings without fear of being ridiculed...well look at AnnieAsh! She talked and talked and talked all about all her reasons why she shouldn't tell her husband the truth and why she should continue on with the OM because he was such a better match. And yet because she could talk through it, and have all the fantasies pointed out as fake, and have reality shown to her, and have a respectful rebuttal...she was able to see (and choose) on her own to stop because what she was doing was wrong. AND THEN, she had encouragement to help her do the right thing!!!


This is all great, wonderful stuff.

But i just question whether a section designed to help the BS to heal and to cope is the right place to help the WS to defog. To continue with your rape analogy (and to be a bit crass with it - sorry) it's a bit like putting the rehabilitation center for rapists right next to the rape crisis center for women who have been raped. 

Perhaps there should be a separate section for WS's to work on themselves first where the Mods could be very strict about people flaming WS's just for the sake of it (as opposed to telling them some home truths calmly but firmly). And then, if repentant WS's wish to help BS's heal by sharing their experiences they should be encouraged to graduate to CWI. 

But it's not just a matter of separating out the B and the W to spare people's feelings. If TAM had a place where confused WS's could come and be helped to sort out their heads and reset their priorities - ideally by other waywards who understood what they were going through - then it would be even more awesome (and more of a help to the community) than it is now.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

No, JCD, infidelity is the problem in their relationships, not a reckless internet advice. 

I also take an objection to your definition of "MOST". Most of people in R here (me included) indeed took TAM advice, even if they were initially skeptical.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> If TAM had a place where confused WS's could come and be helped to sort out their heads and reset their priorities - ideally by other waywards who understood what they were going through - then it would be even more awesome (and more of a help to the community) than it is now.


:iagree: This is a terrific idea! Hopefully such a section will exist on TAM someday.


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## whatslovegottodowithit? (Jan 6, 2013)

There is a way to ignore posters on this site. If a wayward chooses to not familiarize themselves with how the site works, that's their issue. If typed words are seen as offensive, it's because what a wayward does to a spouse is offensive in-and-of itself! Maybe their SO rugswept, maybe their SO said offensive things to them, maybe their SO was (insert reaction here) and weren't ready for the gauntlet of responses/advice they were about to receive? If it offends you, you can report the post if it offends the terms of use/guidelines.

People don't like being told they are wrong. Liars don't want to face the truth. More often than not, people want to align themselves with people who will validate their decision no matter how poor. Those waywards and betrayeds here know this (see the toxic friend or enabler that most fraternize with). 

I applaud those waywards who tell their story and wish to grow. Everyone is different although they share a common betrayal theme. When our children blatantly lie or behave in a way we don't condone, do we just nicely work it out, or do we at times get stern and perhaps raise our voice? Especially if it's something so bad that you can't believe they did such things! It's hard to recognize a teachable moment when one does not wish to learn! Not everyone will like a writer's style, but yet will read the content because they know it can be insightful, useful, etc...

There is also nothing wrong with ignoring the offensive posts or replying: "Thank you for your input, I will see it gets the attention it deserves." Heck, this post may get that reply


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Do any of you remember Hunger? I tried and tried to get her out of the fog. It did not work. I told her how she was telling herself false reasons for her behavior, she wanted to justify her affair i guess I don't know if it's possible for a WS to come here and get defogged. They have to really want it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

there are certainly obtuse WW's that won't listen to rational thought so I really have no problem laying into them so to speak (and i just did as such). But there are WS's trying to at least get some perspective and understand what it takes to be remorseful or learn to a degree. I think pulling your punches with them is not a good idea as long as you are civil and state what you believe in a polite manner. If you get them on the defensive then you won't help them understand or give them tools to do what's right.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

I would welcome a section for WS to understand, heal, grow and mend. I never came here to be yelled at, belittled or called names. I also never came here to be the punching ball for someone else's bitterness and unresolved issues. 

I feel immensely sorry for anyone displaying this type of blood thirst but it's not an excuse for anything. Having been cheated on isn't an entitlement to be a jerk to someone else which might or might not exclude the BS's cheating spouse.

I had a EA, I'm 5 years past D-day. I have a lot to say, I have a lot to share but I do not feel comfortable doing so because I'm not interested to hear that I'm human waste or owning someone else's crap. I would like to hear from other WS that have been successful in mending their marriage. I would like to hear how they did it and how it changed them. I would like to hear from people that have been able to turn themselves around and emerge a better person, a better spouse, a better parent.
I sometimes struggle with myself over the person I was and the person I am now and how it all fits together and why. I would like nothing more than just talk about it and get feedback but like I said, I do not feel comfortable at all to do it here (or on one of the other cheater forums where keeping the affair alive seems to take priority over anything else).


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

whatslovegottodowithit? said:


> There is a way to ignore posters on this site. If a wayward chooses to not familiarize themselves with how the site works, that's their issue. If it offends you, you can report the post if it offends the terms of use/guidelines.
> 
> There is also nothing wrong with ignoring the offensive posts or replying: "Thank you for your input, I will see it gets the attention it deserves." Heck, this post may get that reply


I have no problem with folks expressing their opinions HOWEVER the problem with your proposed solution of using the ignore button is that it discourages WS' who are reading the forum and then leave without seeking help for the problem because they're afraid of being bullied.

There is definitely a crowd of BS bullies in the forum who feel the necessity to bash, name call and otherwise create negativity. In turn, there are a number of BS and WS who leave because they're unable to see the good through the cacophony of noise.

It's one thing to call someone out on something they've done, it's another to just randomly bash folks due to the mistakes they've made in the past. 

I offered my view as a fWW on a post and was subsequently treated rather poorly by another member of the forum, a BS, because they felt unconcerned with the 'feelings of a cheater'. That's their prerogative but they're not harming me, they're harming folks who won't seek help here for fear of the same bully tactics.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

FourtyPlus said:


> I would welcome a section for WS to understand, heal, grow and mend. I never came here to be yelled at, belittled or called names. I also never came here to be the punching ball for someone else's bitterness and unresolved issues.
> 
> I feel immensely sorry for anyone displaying this type of blood thirst but it's not an excuse for anything. Having been cheated on isn't an entitlement to be a jerk to someone else which might or might not exclude the BS's cheating spouse.
> 
> ...


FP, post your story. If someone attacks, report it. And block/ignore them after. I, for one, would like to hear your story. You are 5 years out from an EA. My husband and I are now 1 year out from mine (2 EAs) and his (1 EA). There ARE others, and I think they would benefit from hearing your story, and even offer advice if they catch something you might have missed. Add to that the fact that there are BS here like Dig, AR, Hope, CTU, among others, who could be able to off er you the feedback you need. I agree, attacks aren't necessary. However, I DO think some who are blatantly flaunting, seeing no wrong in their affairs, DO need a wake up call. And I HAVE given that to a few... very few.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

I agree with Maricha. I'd love to hear it also. Maybe we should start a thread for WS to share their stories and what they've done, learned to make R work.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

The only time that I would ever jump the WS' case is if they were to richly expouse the glory of cheating as well as to kicking the BS to the curb.

There's a lot to be learned from the WS when they are truly repentent for their prior actions and speak out honestly and truthfully about the "whys" and "wherefores" of their actions!


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

whatslovegottodowithit? said:


> There is a way to ignore posters on this site. If a wayward chooses to not familiarize themselves with how the site works, that's their issue. If typed words are seen as offensive, it's because what a wayward does to a spouse is offensive in-and-of itself! Maybe their SO rugswept, maybe their SO said offensive things to them, maybe their SO was (insert reaction here) and weren't ready for the gauntlet of responses/advice they were about to receive? If it offends you, you can report the post if it offends the terms of use/guidelines.
> 
> People don't like being told they are wrong. Liars don't want to face the truth. More often than not, people want to align themselves with people who will validate their decision no matter how poor. Those waywards and betrayeds here know this (see the toxic friend or enabler that most fraternize with).
> 
> ...


It's not about the writer's style. I couldn't care less about that. It's about being attacked and stomped on for the sake of the attacker's own satisfaction. That's not a teachable moment and there's nothing insightful about it. It doesn't serve any purpose other than the attacker's personal satisfaction of knowing "Yeah, I put her in her place!" 
I have commented on many posts only to be told that I shouldn't have had sex with the OM or stuff like "You should have thought about that before you [email protected]#$ed the other guy". I never slept with anyone but my husband, so don't tell me that I did, thank you very much. Hey, but I'm not allowed to get angry over this. I'm supposed to be patient and reply "I understand your frustration and bitterness. Thank you for your kind reply and advise." and then crawl away. I don't think so!

I have gotten great advise here from some folks, no yelling, no name calling. Gave me a lot to think about, very constructive, extremely helpful and much appreciated. Lucky me I was able to tell the good from the bad.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

TCSRedhead said:


> I agree with Maricha. I'd love to hear it also. Maybe we should start a thread for WS to share their stories and what they've done, learned to make R work.


I think that would be great!!! 

It's going to take me some time. I work from home. It's sometimes very tricky to turn off personal stuff and work instead. I have to give work priority because it pays the bills.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Look I'm not trying to piss anyone off here and I absolutely do not agree with mindless abuse but can I just say and with respect here

Cmon lets all grow a pair - we're all grown men and woman and generally speaking we all know when we've done wrong and we as sure as hell by the age of 30 + can take a hammering here and there especially if deep down we know we deserve it 

Criticism is that - criticism and if you've been on the wayward path you sure as hell need to expect some of it after the events that you have initiated have destroyed whole families kids other families and god knows what else

Cmon people lets not forget what adultery infidelity is and the appalling consequences.

Look, if you are a wayward you come on here tell your story and rightly, take a very deep breath, some of what you'll get will be out of order and a bit too much but a lot will be good sound intelligent perspective and advice and I do feel you, to an extent, have to take the rough with the smooth to gain anything from being here

Infidelity is not a subject where you can just sit down over a biscuit with the perpetrator of it and start off with "yeah poor you" - and why should it be like that.

Lets get some perspective here it can become almost 'anti' politically correct to the point where the betrayed amongst the us, the vast majority, are too scared to utter any words especially condemning ones that frankly may well be deserved 

Common sense I think 

In the past couple of months there have been one or two waywards who have stepped into the breach and come out of it scarred but with the utmost dignity and respect from the 'home' vets. They've ridden the wave, showed they really were trying to look inwardly at themselves and their terrible behavior and you could tell with no problem at all they were on the right self corrective path to knowing themselves better and had learned from their terrible choices. And I might add a good deal of that learning, that self discovery, if you will, was down in no small measure to the intense criticism and anger they were shown at the start. But they rose above it to gain immense respect and not only from the posters here but back home in their own houses where a reconciliation had then become possible.

I think in the last few months Ive seen this kind of comment from waywards a few times 'I never realized until I came here the depth and strength of feeling of the betrayed spouse after the suffering and destruction I have caused."

I don't think its possible to convey that to a wayward by just being 100% nice and sensitive.....after all lets face it that's what most of us betrayed husbands and wives have been doing and getting completely annihilated in the process.

Just my 2pence worth


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Headspin - it's the mindless abuse that's being protested.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

TCSRedhead said:


> Headspin - it's the mindless abuse that's being protested.


I get that but I can feel almost like its coming to the point where the wayward can end up sitting in a protective bubble.

I might add there have been a few threads as well where the wayward got and deserved absolutely every bit of abuse they received to the point where excellent posters from here were banned left right and center

It can get ridiculously the other way

Perspective and common sense are the order of the day but in relation to the fact that a wayward and a betrayed are what they are for a good historical reasons


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Headspin, you can convey those feelings toward a WS WITHOUT referring to them as a "worthless piece of shyte" or the like... Even those who have come here, determined to reconcile and their spouses are determined to reconcile as well. They've recognized what they did was wrong, are remorseful, and yet they get treated that way. THIS is what some are talking about, regarding mindless abuse. THIS is what is unnecessary. Those who flaunt their affairs, yes, I think they do need to be shown how wrong they are, and that they need to stop.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

I know speaking for me and the other WS who've chimed in on this thread, we're not talking about that type of wake up call. 

It's the entitlement of feeling you can name call and abuse WS simply because they have been a WS. 

I avoid reporting posters because I don't find it productive but I have learned to use the ignore button.

That said, I do see both BS and WS getting piled on quite a bit by the BS bully team to the point they don't return and with the situations they lay out, that's rather sad to be in that situation AND without a good support, don't you think?

I don't expect a bubble, nor do I give one but I've watched the progression here over the past year (I lurked prior to joining) really go downward. I care because I got a lot of insight from many of the posters here on what I needed to do. I would hate to see that lost or diluted to the point of no longer being useful.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Headspin,

Here is one of the many MANY problems in TAM...they advocate a cookie cutter approach. Any wayward that stands up for themselves AT ALL is an unrepentent cake eating whatever (the lexicography is amazing at dismissing WS)

The default position of the majority BS crowd here is that they cannot act like a jerk or go too far. OR...with the more honest ones, that they CAN do this...but it's just a sad consequence that the WS MUST put up with because they were bad.

This gets a lot of tacit support from the other BS. Most of them would nod knowingly about violence done, technically deploring it while secretly in their hearts understanding it. Some people ADVOCATE it.

I have seen people badgered (in a bad way) and told that they were worthless and unchangable. Exactly how many people reported them? How many people called them on it? Frankly, I've done it a BUNCH of times but it's only AFTERWARDS that anyone else has the balls to actually say..."oh...I guess that WAS a little over the top."

No, it was VERY over the top.

There is a VAST difference between censorship and civility, even though both are in the C section of the dictionary.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

JCD said:


> Headspin,
> 
> Here is one of the many MANY problems in TAM...they advocate a cookie cutter approach. Any wayward that stands up for themselves AT ALL is an unrepentent cake eating whatever (the lexicography is amazing at dismissing WS)
> 
> ...



You mean asking who makes more money, is hotter, and how often women flirt with you isn't the key to every infidelity?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Headspin said:


> I get that but I can feel almost like its coming to the point where the wayward can end up sitting in a protective bubble.


I don't see one poster here WS or BS stating even anything close to that, strawman argument?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> You mean asking who makes more money, is hotter, and how often women flirt with you isn't the key to every infidelity?


The answer to everything is in a woman's vagina or Athol Kay...who seems to study them incessently.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Tricky thread! Lol!

Lots of different opinions make for good reading. I think most of us despise betrayal, even those that may be on the W side. It is a razor's edge between accepting the WS as a valued contributor, and not accepting the horrible things they have done.

While I was going through my ordeal I treasured the opinion of a co-worker that had been on the WS side. It was healing for me to discuss my personal issues, and listen to her explain some of the stuff she did. 

The things she told me were very helpful in getting my head clear. It made me realize that some people just aren't as committed to vows or see sex as a big deal. It also made me realize that lying is used to protect themselves and the things they want. I also realized that some people just aren't what I would want to be married to in spite of great looks, sweet dispositions, or that they are fun to be with. She was a safe mirror of many of the things my exWW brought to our relationship.

I see that here on TAM. There are those first time WS posting in disbelief that their actions really mattered, or that they are now afraid of their consequences. It is easy to project our hurt feelings on them. Maybe they need a little smack upside the head. 

Then there are those that have been through the fire, and provide a resource that many of us BS can not get anywhere else. My hat is off to those that lay aside their guilt and shame in order for us to heal. Thanks for that.

Some are offended with the promotion of D or R. Neither is easy. Not knowing which path to take may even be more difficult. Some marriages should be ended. Some should not.

This is really a pointless post for me to make. Just an observation.

I do like the positive energy I get when an insight is shared by any of us that makes a difference to someone in pain. It is very rewarding to help those in need, or see someone start fixing their broken life. It also helps me to gain more perspective as I read and write with all of you. Thank goodness for TAM!


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Lets get some perspective here it can become almost 'anti' politically correct to the point where the betrayed amongst the us, the vast majority, are too scared to utter any words especially condemning ones that frankly may well be deserved


BSs scared to speak their minds? Here?


Headspin said:


> I get that but I can feel almost like its coming to the point where the wayward can end up sitting in a protective bubble.


I've never seen anything like this in the last 3 yrs. Ever.
We seem to live in completely different realities. But you reclaim perspective. Maybe i see it wrong.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> I don't see one poster here WS or BS stating even anything close to that, strawman argument?


Mmm well I have seen quite a few threads in the last year where actually a lot of really top posters end up refraining from posting at all from fear of being banned where a wayward spouse is being inflammatory provocative etc 

And of course I'm not advocating mindless abuse but I don't want to see a situation where one cannot respond in a strong way towards somebody who cannot see how bad their behavior has been / is being.

Its about common sense as I have said, from both sides


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Acabado said:


> BSs scared to speak their minds? Here?
> I've never seen anything like this in the last 3 yrs. Ever.
> We seem to live in completely different realities. But you reclaim perspective. Maybe i see it wrong.


I have definitely, even been banned from one thread myself last year - ridiculous it was too but that guy in that thread deserved every bit of the hefty criticism he got. 

I tend to feel there's a big difference in some who are here for betterment and understanding of why they did what they did / are doing and those who are not. It becomes apparent after a few pages in the threads


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Headspin said:


> I have definitely, even been banned from one thread myself last year - ridiculous it was too but that guy in that thread deserved every bit of the hefty criticism he got.
> 
> I tend to feel there's a big difference in some who are here for betterment and understanding of why they did what they did / are doing and those who are not. It becomes apparent after a few pages in the threads


It doesn't always start that way. If you feel like it, go read my first post. It was awful. I still cringe reading it. Thankfully, there were some good folks that reached out to me (some not so gently, mind you) and really got my head in the right place WITHOUT name calling or projecting.

I've come a long way since then and make a concerted effort to help not only other WS' but BS who are being deceived. I answer honestly, even if that isn't what someone wants to hear.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

The drama that I've had to deal with, being told I'm lying by people that don't know anything about me and our story has caused me to wanna hit someone. I do my best to refrain from fighting with people like that because I have been banned too many times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Sometimes I have refrained from posting as there are times, even now, when I feel a bit fragile. And I react badly to bullies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Headspin said:


> I have definitely, even been banned from one thread myself last year - ridiculous it was too but that guy in that thread deserved every bit of the hefty criticism he got.
> 
> I tend to feel there's a big difference in some who are here for betterment and understanding of why they did what they did / are doing and those who are not. It becomes apparent after a few pages in the threads


Not always, Headspin. I've seen threads started where the WS is remorseful... and it's apparent in the first post...and yet, they get berated for behaving like that NOW... no distinction is made for past behavior vs current behavior. Also, there have been times when one says, very distinctly, that their affair was an EA... no physical contact whatsoever. But some posters don't see the word emotional. All they see is the word affair... and say "you should be ashamed of yourself for having sex with this [POSOM]/[POSOW]!".... They don't read it. 

Even after remorse is stated, even if the WS comes here, looking for help, they get that same treatment. Again, assumption made at the word affair... bypassing the word emotional. Yes, both are detrimental to marriage. I know this just as well as anyone else. But the point is, some are getting jumped on when they never did what they are accused of. 

Really, what it comes down to is that some are just hurting so badly, even when they try to say they are not, and they continue to lash out without reading the posts. Most of the time, I DO try to ask the OP "hey what did you mean by that....?" to be sure I don't just go off. But I admit that I do go off on the ones that appear to be justifying their actions. And, I have been known to tell people to BTFO (I really hope you get that acronym :rofl: ) when they are way off base on something.

Anyway, yes, some are apparent a few pages in... but others are apparent from the start. Yet even the ones who are apparent from the start get treated as if they are still cheating...even if it's been years since any contact.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

THIS is Regret's first post here ever. She was honestly asking the question of why knowing the details would help me. She asked me and I told her, but she wanted to join the forum to ask other betrayed spouses how it helped knowing the "minutiae".

She asked a f'ng question and look at some of the responses. I remember her looking at me and saying she didn't know if she could stay on TAM.

Yeah, some of the jerk assed responses truly hurt her. She was in tears reading some of them because she ASKED A F'NG QUESTION.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

That's exactly my point Dig. Some of us come here not really understanding the other side of the picture and if our BS' reactions are normal and what we should or should not be doing.

My first question on TAM was about sharing passwords.


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## dusty4 (May 8, 2013)

As long as a WS is respectful and doesn't try to blameshift, I don't see why anyone would have a problem. I for one find it refreshing when I read from a WS that owns their poop.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> THIS is Regret's first post here ever. She was honestly asking the question of why knowing the details would help me. She asked me and I told her, but she wanted to join the forum to ask other betrayed spouses how it helped knowing the "minutiae".
> 
> She asked a f'ng question and look at some of the responses. I remember her looking at me and saying she didn't know if she could stay on TAM.
> 
> Yeah, some of the jerk assed responses truly hurt her. She was in tears reading some of them because she ASKED A F'NG QUESTION.


CSS took a lot of heat at first also,It pissed me off.
She was looking for some help and apologized over and over to some of the BS's here,it didn't do any good.
Some even jumped me for bringing her to Tams,said that now she would know all the tricks and she could have an affair and take it underground with ease,said I was an idiot for helping her to learn how.
I even threatened some of the people jumping on her.
In a way I feel sorry for them,they have been hurt so bad and just lash out.
I don't let anyone talk to my wife that way.
Not when all they are asking for is help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I admit, I have questioned other WS' when they first come on here. I pm them and ask them some questions. It's my way of getting a feel of where their mind is at. I am a WS so I don't do it to judge, but to see where they may need help.. it's how you question them , I don't throw out accusations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

*Re: Re: Can posters please not condemn WS for the sake of it!*



snap said:


> No, JCD, infidelity is the problem in their relationships, not a reckless internet advice.
> 
> I also take an objection to your definition of "MOST". Most of people in R here (me included) indeed took TAM advice, even if they were initially skeptical.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Well said. And your R, like mine, isn't "semi-successful", its more successful because of the advice here.

BTW, what the frack is a semi-successful R? Sounds like doing something half baked.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

dusty4 said:


> As long as a WS is respectful and doesn't try to blameshift, I don't see why anyone would have a problem. I for one find it refreshing when I read from a WS that owns their poop.


I don't see why anyone would have a problem either, however some of the comments made to her on her first thread were...



> 5 years of cheating? She says that it was for SEX once a month or so. My own wife did this for 6+ years with 3 OM. Our MC gave us a 1% chance of "staying together". She's gone.
> 
> Why even post?





> Do your husband a big favor and divorce him. This way he can move on and eventually find a woman who can really love and respect him as a man and a spouse since you clearly cannot.





> I dont know how she can look into the mirror and live without crashing down on her knees. wah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





> Poor joker. If a woman wasted five years of my life having an affair, I wouldn't spend more than 5 minutes listening to her excuses or explanations. I wouldn't give her another day of my life.





> She wants to give him what he needs. He needs to divorce her skank ass, and get tested for HIV. Who knows whats crawling around in her.



But see...this is the sh-t that IS said to people like my wife. So, when I know how hard she's f'ng worked this past year in an effort to rebuild my trust in her, all I can say to the ones who posted this is a big F-CK YOU.


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## dusty4 (May 8, 2013)

Again, someone shouldn't have a problem with truly remorseful spouse that wants to do what it takes to right their wrong.

However, one thing that gets me is that sometimes you have a WS that will advertise this remorse briefly and then the whole post becomes about what their OM/OW is thinking. Thats when they lose me. My response to that would be, "Who cares what your OW/OM is thinking. All you need to be focusing on is going NC with OW/OM and make it up to your BS"

Somedaydig, I will read that thread here in a bit. But those responses are uncalled for if your wife is wanting to do what it takes to work on the problem. The first reply you got wasn't really completely uncalled for, just could have left off the "Why bother posting" part. The rest of them I agree with you that they are uncalled for as a WS that wants to do the right thing.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Dig, I just read all that for the first time, never seen that thread before. Some people gave good sound advice,others just pretty much were shocked and spewed at her. I had replied to one of Calvin's threads when I first posted. I got crap because I tried to explain what was going through my head before during and after my EA. Being honest bit me in the butt. After that I made a thread called....What's the difference between remorse and guilt? Because I felt terribly guilty of course and big time remorse. But was afraid that meant I was supposed to be punished for the rest of our marriage. I was very confused.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

By the way...I really feel Beowulf saved our marriage with his advice ..I know he has helped a lot of others. He is a very compassionate man and I will be forever grateful for his help with me and Calvin. This stuff is not a! Walk in the park!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dusty4 (May 8, 2013)

Dig, just read your wife's thread. Other than the part where she said she blamed you for her cheating, there was nothing in the post that warranted venom from others. And she did preface that statement with "initially".

Even though her frustration with your need for details might have triggered some, it wasn't the kind of questions or remarks that deserves a tongue lashing. Hopefully she is doing everything she can to regain your trust.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Regret has come a very long way since then . I believe they will R just fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

The trouble is, if a poster has webbed feet, and has a close affinity for water, and if that poster then quacks *very loudly* at WS' on TAM, and then smiles and says: "But hey,folks,I want everyone here to know that I am not a duck!" why are they shocked when people say: "Dude, can you please get your moulted feathers out of my post?"

If you ain't a duck, don't quack! :rofl:

I am *not* accusing anyone of being a duck. Just sayin' how it looks...


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

dusty4 said:


> Again, someone shouldn't have a problem with truly remorseful spouse that wants to do what it takes to right their wrong.
> 
> However, one thing that gets me is that sometimes you have a WS that will advertise this remorse briefly and then the whole post becomes about what their OM/OW is thinking. Thats when they lose me. My response to that would be, "Who cares what your OW/OM is thinking. All you need to be focusing on is going NC with OW/OM and make it up to your BS"
> 
> Somedaydig, I will read that thread here in a bit. But those responses are uncalled for if your wife is wanting to do what it takes to work on the problem. The first reply you got wasn't really completely uncalled for, just could have left off the "Why bother posting" part. The rest of them I agree with you that they are uncalled for as a WS that wants to do the right thing.


I should have prefaced that I added the first comment to show how it went downhill quickly from that point on. No, that comment wasn't harsh at all really.



dusty4 said:


> Dig, just read your wife's thread. Other than the part where she said she blamed you for her cheating, there was nothing in the post that warranted venom from others. And she did preface that statement with "initially".
> 
> Even though her frustration with your need for details might have triggered some, it wasn't the kind of questions or remarks that deserves a tongue lashing. Hopefully she is doing everything she can to regain your trust.


Yes, the preface "initially" should have been an indicator IMO that she was not thinking that way any longer. She has done a ton of work every day since March 6, 2012. Every single day. And never balks if I ask a question even now.



CantSitStill said:


> Regret has come a very long way since then . I believe they will R just fine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you. I still say I will be fully reconciled when I die and Regret is by my side. Until then, we'll always be working on reconciliation.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> I should have prefaced that I added the first comment to show how it went downhill quickly from that point on. No, that comment wasn't harsh at all really.
> 
> Yes that's true, but you will have happiness together till the day you die. That's the goal right?
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Why did my reply land up in the middle of what you wrote?? Not used to this phone, sorry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

LOL


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> LOL


I'll explain it to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

calvin said:


> I'll explain it to her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, but I have nobody to explain it to me! I have an Andoid, my wife is an Apple girl!


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Yeah, but I have nobody to explain it to me! I have an Andoid, my wife is an Apple girl!


Okay forget any adultery that's divorceable!!


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> THIS is Regret's first post here ever. She was honestly asking the question of why knowing the details would help me. She asked me and I told her, but she wanted to join the forum to ask other betrayed spouses how it helped knowing the "minutiae".
> 
> She asked a f'ng question and look at some of the responses. I remember her looking at me and saying she didn't know if she could stay on TAM.
> 
> Yeah, some of the jerk assed responses truly hurt her. She was in tears reading some of them because she ASKED A F'NG QUESTION.


Yep I remember large parts of your thread Dig

A question tho, would you say in general terms that Regret's 'baptiism of fire' on this site in any way helped her understand what *you* the betrayed went / were going through or not and in some tangible way ultimately helped you begin a healthy true reconciliation?

This is the problem I see with this whole thing. That often it takes an intense, aggressive reaction to make the wayward see / understand in any way the gravity of their actions

Sure it can be seen as going too far but the lines are somewhat blurred a I see it.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I have read Digs triggers, I have seen my husband's triggers, I have read some sad sad stories and it has made see really see the pain I put Calvin thru. Man oh man..why? Why? Why was I so selfish and unreasonable? It makes me hate myself. It's hard to like myself when I think back. Makes me wanna puke. I have lost a lot of weight..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

All I know is that it's never too late to change. I see a lot of reasons why Calvin was so moody before my EA. I thought he was just being a jerk, when I was causing a lot of him acting that way. Sure wish I would have dealt with things differently. Uggg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Yep I remember large parts of your thread Dig
> 
> A question tho, would you say in general terms that Regret's 'baptiism of fire' on this site in any way helped her understand what *you* the betrayed went / were going through or not and in some tangible way ultimately helped you begin a healthy true reconciliation?
> 
> ...


Honestly, she saw me for over a month hurting and dealing with things as a strong man. Even though she saw how much I struggled and lashed out at her verbally, she tried her best to comfort me.

Her arrival at TAM was literally so she could ask the question about me needing details. She was getting conflicting information for our former MC, who said I needed to move past this and that my questions weren't going to help heal anything, blah, blah, blah. I was telling her that the questions were pertinent for my understanding the extent of the affair, so she took it upon herself to find TAM.

And I thought that was a big insight to her truly wanting to understand me. She didn't ask me if she could join or anything...she just told me she joined right after she signed up and told me why.

Her baptism by fire at TAM hurt her. It didn't show her how much she had hurt me. I did that every single day for about 10 months or so. Badly. The absolute truth is that the posters who were betrayed spouses yet held a dialogue had more of an impact on her. 

Chapparel made a comment in one of my threads and I remember her excitement saying "He gets me! He understands!" Those posters had a huge impact and those were the ones who really showed her how much she hurt me. In her first thread, Shaggy seemed to have an impact on her from what I recall her saying about it. She said "he's tough but he's not mean about things". She took advice from someone about starting a time line, which she did for me, and then took it a step further and started an online journal for us on Google Drive where we could both write. It was a great help.

She has talked about posting again during the summer, and hopes to maybe help people out, but with the move and all - she's not making any promises.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> The absolute truth is that the posters who were betrayed spouses yet held a dialogue had more of an impact on her.


I have no doubt it's universal, I must admit I've failed to follow this myself too many times to count.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

CantSitStill said:


> By the way...I really feel Beowulf saved our marriage with his advice ..I know he has helped a lot of others. He is a very compassionate man and I will be forever grateful for his help with me and Calvin. This stuff is not a! Walk in the park!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Same here


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

FWIW, there have been WS's who have come here PRETENDING to be remorseful, asking for advice, etc.

The tale of Allybabe_18 and dingerdad is a great example of this.

Allybabe_18 started several threads asking for advice and how to have a successful and and help her BS, dingerdad cope and deal with triggers and the hurt she caused him.

Im trying to learn and know consequences of how I handle things.

Panic attacks are not helping us deal with R

Wayward spouses, how do triggers effect you?

But ultimately she resumed her affair with the OM, in spite of coming here and discussing it and getting advice, culminating in DDay 3 for dingerdad. She left dingerdad and the chilldren to be with her OM.

D-day 3!

Too bad dingerdad hasn't been here in a while to give us an update of his situation. And I doubt Allybabe_18 will be back, under that username at least. Take a gander at those threads and see for yourself.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> FWIW, there have been WS's who have come here PRETENDING to be remorseful, asking for advice, etc.
> 
> The tale of Allybabe_18 and dingerdad is a great example of this.
> 
> ...


I guess they get so adept at the role that they're quite capable of pulling the wool over everyone.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> I guess they get so adept at the role that they're quite capable of pulling the wool over everyone.


Or maybe the 'once a cheater...' crowd was able to convince them that they were a hopeless betrayer and shouldn't bother to R?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Or maybe the 'once a cheater...' crowd was able to convince them that they were a hopeless betrayer and shouldn't bother to R?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nobody can convince anybody to do anything against their will MattMatt. The environment and circumstances are always used by cheaters who don't really have control over their own actions. If allybabe was really into R she wouldn't have gone back even in the face of the harshest criticism. If you're going to throw that in the ring you might as well explain to me why EI or CM or any of the other fWS haven't rekindled their affairs?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Nobody can convince anybody to do anything against their will MattMatt. The environment and circumstances are always used by cheaters who don't really have control over their own actions. If allybabe was really into R she wouldn't have gone back even in the face of the harshest criticism. If you're going to throw that in the ring you might as well explain to me why EI or CM or any of the other fWS haven't rekindled their affairs?


It might depend on many factors. How broken a person is, how a particular poster might have gotten under their skin, if they ever really wanted R, etc. I think that we must all be aware that the Internet is only ever a collection of real people spread all over the world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

If I made a bad decision and sought advice 

if the people responding did one of the following...

A) gave personal stories of their pain and explained why my decision was so hurtful in a civil manner
B) made personal attacks like the ones Dig quoted to give me a baptism of fire

I would almost always engage and discuss with A and get defensive and/or withdrawn with B

look, I truly understand there's a segment of people who won't respond to A either and will not emerge from their fog or truly "get it", but ultimately they won't listen to B either


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

BjornFree said:


> Nobody can convince anybody to do anything against their will MattMatt. The environment and circumstances are always used by cheaters who don't really have control over their own actions. If allybabe was really into R she wouldn't have gone back even in the face of the harshest criticism. If you're going to throw that in the ring you might as well explain to me why EI or CM or any of the other fWS haven't rekindled their affairs?


Probably not against their will but if someone is vulnerable enough, desperate and confused enough, it doesn't take much to convince a WS that he/she is a lost cause, that they should give up, not even bother and set their spouse free. I don't know if that's how it went it Ally.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> If I made a bad decision and sought advice
> 
> if the people responding did one of the following...
> 
> ...


But here is an interesting point almost

I appreciate personal digs are just not acceptable. Period 

However they do come with an undercurrent of immense bitterness and anger and I'm afraid I feel that this does in a 'good' way make / force a wayward to realize just how incredibly hurtful their actions have been.

I s'pose there are personal digs and personal digs and mindless verbal abuse is definitely to not be tolerated but for me it's this fine line and I absolutely believe that many waywards will not 'get it' unless they see some of that huge anger and I'm not convinced scenario A above actually gives them that 

Look at it this way if I am trying make a really strong point in an understanding and sensitive way I think that point might get missed unless I use language that truly reflects my intensity and strength of feeling

I do feel this subject really does mirror the way waywards are dealt with by the betrayed after the 'event' - try and talk sense to them and you get what? deceived lied to, gaslighted, humiliated trickle truthed, blamed - destroyed - 99 out of 100 times 

But, stand up on your hind legs and scream and shout, corner them till the lies are put right back into their faces, get their attention and surprise surprise now you are not prepared to be a doormat any longer you get a their full attention and finally some respect and only then can you start talking about reconciliation on a level playing field.

This is the same for me and a wayward coming on here is part of the reality check for the wayward isn't it. It's only when there is some serious talking to be done after trying to be sensitive and 'nice' that they finally start to get it

Like in the other thread trying to 'nice' your way into a reconciliation rarely works, sometimes people have to held by the shoulders and given a damn good shaking and for me that's often what they get on TAM . Obviously sometimes it goes too far but it's difficult to say where that line is


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

you really confuse polite/civil with "nice"

completely different


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> you really confuse polite/civil with "nice"
> 
> completely different


don't know, just my opinion 

Like in the other thread trying to be polite civil and 'nice' your way into a reconciliation rarely works,

I think anger in dealing with a wayward spouse is a legitimate tool in knocking the fog out of them. 

I get where you're coming from but I've seen threads where as soon as betrayed spouses show any anger or rage - bang! out comes the banning stick and I think that's wrong


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Headspin said:


> don't know, just my opinion
> 
> Like in the other thread trying to be polite civil and 'nice' your way into a reconciliation rarely works,
> 
> ...


I don't at all

you must think this post is acceptable:



> She wants to give him what he needs. He needs to divorce her skank ass, and get tested for HIV. Who knows whats crawling around in her.


instead it could have been written this way and still have the same message



> If it were me, I would divorce you due to the severity of your affair. I certainly hope you and your husband get tested for STD's immediately as you have risked yours and your husband's lives to that possibility


the rewritten post isn't "nice" and still demonstrates considerable anger, yet it doesn't resort to name calling or abuse

You may think bashing has merit in order to convey the pain and I say it doesn't, and the board rules most certainly agree with my POV. So, if you really wish to use bully tactics to any wayward, then I suggest you find another board, but good luck with that.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Ultimately no anonymous internet persona will ever have the power to "show a wayward" anything other than keystrokes on a screen.

If the remorse and willingness to change doesn't come from the wayward, the bitter and and almost rabid attack posts are useless exercise in futility.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> I don't at all
> 
> you must think this post is acceptable:
> 
> ...


Hang on this is getting stupid 
I have a different opinion of what maybe is nice or polite or what is maybe 'effective' as well and it may well not match with yours but there's no need to start going off on one here "I suggest you find another board" what's that all about!? Don't be ridiculous. Bit childish 

Actually I'll be honest, why should'nt I be. Your second version does not demonstrate "considerable anger" not imo 

_If it were me, I would divorce you due to the severity of your affair. I certainly hope you and your husband get tested for STD's immediately as you have risked yours and your husband's lives to that possibility _

Yes that's "nice" but I doubt any wayward will take much heed of the true "severity" of their affair hearing that, however telling them that they've callously ripped people lives to pieces so that kids start not seeing their dads until wkends and that grandparents have been completely fked over and etc etc etc just for a quick roll in the hay is not pleasant or nice but frankly gets the message across ten times better and is still not being abusive personally IMO

Do YOU find that post acceptable and if you don't why not ?

And by that I'm not saying calling anybody a skank is a better answer either before you try to to pull some bizzarre equation there

What is this? does everything have to be diluted to suit the politically correct?
Christ, waywards have done big **** - BIG **** and if I'm honest, talking to them in nice sensitive tones doesn't sit that well with me but I do have a brain. I do understand that just screaming at people with inanity is pointless and possibly hurtful but I also feel the anger and bitterness we naturally have it is not a bad thing for a wayward to actually see some of that, to experience just some of the consequence of their actions.

I also understand it is important to try get to the bottom of why people do what they do and sure if a wayward is clearly on course for remorse honesty and humility then all well and good. One thing I will say here part of being a wayward is exhibiting a complete lack of respect for ones partner. I think that is set in stone and when it comes to respect and getting some back as a wayward ....... you have to earn it 

Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't and I've been involved in threads with waywards where my respect for them after a few pages has gone sky high but some of them ?........well I won't bother. 

Frankly if you go around ripping peoples lives, real peoples lives, kids, families to shreds don't go around thinking you're going to have an easy ride once the bomb explodes.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Hang on this is getting stupid
> I have a different opinion of what maybe is nice or polite or what is maybe 'effective' as well and it may well not match with yours but there's no need to start going off on one here "I suggest you find another board" what's that all about!? Don't be ridiculous. Bit childish
> 
> Actually I'll be honest, why should'nt I be. Your second version does not demonstrate "considerable anger" not imo
> ...


Well, yes. That's fine... *But some posters attack and hurt WS and BS.The WS because they deserve it for being a WS and the BS for allowing themselves to be a BS in the first place.*


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

BjornFree said:


> Nobody can convince anybody to do anything against their will MattMatt. The environment and circumstances are always used by cheaters who don't really have control over their own actions. If allybabe was really into R she wouldn't have gone back even in the face of the harshest criticism. If you're going to throw that in the ring you might as well explain to me why EI or CM or any of the other fWS haven't rekindled their affairs?


A very aggressive response to waywards can definitely deep six R, even if said waywards are truly remorseful. Note what EI said in this very thread about that:



EI said:


> That is such a valid question that I want to be able to give you a well thought out and honest answer. The very hurtful comments that I was referring to in my previous post were made by a small but determined minority. There was one poster, who has since been permanently banned (not because of me) who I felt like had a personal vendetta against me and, at times, I literally thought I was going to lose my mind because of his never ending verbal assaults directed specifically towards me. He would launch thread after thread just to lash out at me... I'm not making that up.... There are several TAMers who will remember and know exactly who I'm referring to. I called B1 at work one day last Fall in hysterics. He had to leave work to come home early just to calm me down. And, *I'm not that easily rattled. This man's words left me feeling that I was beyond redemption and had me considering divorce (though B1 and I had both decided to attempt reconciliation) because HE KNEW that I would cheat again??? "I" was quite sure, at that point, that I wouldn't..... But he insisted, over and over, that I would. I started believing that it "must be true" because someone from TAM said so. When you're already in a low place, psychologically, you can become very susceptible to what others think and say about you. *There were a lot of people on TAM defending me, at that point, but *I became genuinely fearful that he must have seen something in me that the others didn't, not even myself.* B1 didn't want to talk about divorce, so *I began to consider suicide.* At that time, I began receiving a lot of pm's of support from others on TAM who could see how hard I was working on my reconciliation and *the negative effects his attacks were having on me.*


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> A very aggressive response to waywards can definitely deep six R, even if said waywards are truly remorseful. Note what EI said in this very thread about that:


So, if a "Rah! Rah! beat that cheater!" poster reads a message from a distraught BS that their WS (husband/wife) has taken their lives because of what the "Rah! Rah! beat that cheater!" poster had told the WS on TAM or via PMs, then how would the "Rah! Rah!" poster feel? 

Angry at the removal of their punchbag? Guilty? Just shrug their shoulders and say: "Must've been weak"?


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> So, if a "Rah! Rah! beat that cheater!" poster reads a message from a distraught BS that their WS (husband/wife) has taken their lives because of what the "Rah! Rah! beat that cheater!" poster had told the WS on TAM or via PMs, then how would the "Rah! Rah!" poster feel?
> 
> Angry at the removal of their punchbag? Guilty? Just shrug their shoulders and say: "Must've been weak"?


Not guilty, no. I think they'd probably say, "Obviously weak, good riddance. They were just garbage anyway, the world is better off without them in it." Then to the BS left behind, they might say something like, "Why are you sad?? You should be rejoicing!"


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Headspin said:


> However they do come with an undercurrent of immense bitterness and anger and I'm afraid I feel that this does in a 'good' way make / force a wayward to realize just how incredibly hurtful their actions have been.


I think that this is an interesting point.

A WS who encounters the incredible anger of his/her BS can quite easily write it off as "his/her problem" - they tell themselves that the BS should just "deal with it" or that they are an angry and insecure person and the problem therefore lies with them (the BS), not with the cheater.

When faced with the anger of a whole array of BS's they can't use the same excuse. It's much harder for them to tell themselves that every BS on here is angry or insecure. They either have to do mental gymnastics or they have to accept that cheating causes huge anger because it causes huge pain. Then they might begin to get it. Depersonalising the issue can lead to insight. But that requires them to see the great anger, bewilderment and sense of betrayal that BS's on here generally feel.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I think that this is an interesting point.
> 
> A WS who encounters the incredible anger of his/her BS can quite easily write it off as "his/her problem" - they tell themselves that the BS should just "deal with it" or that they are an angry and insecure person and the problem therefore lies with them (the BS), not with the cheater.
> 
> When faced with the anger of a whole array of BS's they can't use the same excuse. It's much harder for them to tell themselves that every BS on here is angry or insecure. They either have to do mental gymnastics or they have to accept that cheating causes huge anger because it causes huge pain. Then they might begin to get it. Depersonalising the issue can lead to insight. But that requires them to see the great anger, bewilderment and sense of betrayal that BS's on here generally feel.


Well that's my main point in all this well said

I'll make an anology - a very good one actually

Waywards are like children. It's one thing that became clear to me living through it all and one thing that became even clearer being on here in the last year. Waywards deep in the fog are exactly like children, they've just got their cake their cream and they've been eating it. Once its starts to get taken away they react by having tantrums and they attack "it's NOT THEIR FAULT".

Like errant children they won't be told.

How do you deal with a child. You try to explain what they are doing is wrong, you try to make them understand why, you try to impart a bit of grown up logic and grown up ethics to it all BUT that fails because they are of course NOT grown up. You try to find a way into their 'world' with child logic but with the adult meaning. They still look at you as if you were mad !

Now what ?

You change the way you look at them because they are beginning to show you a lack of respect you get a little more agitated in the way you are dealing with it.

They still ignore you carrying on regardless. Now what 

Sadly you realize that even as your children are getting older and wiser - they are STILL children with a childs values and you know you are going to have to talk to them in away they will surely understand in a why that cannot be misconstrued or misunderstood

You have to show aggression, to show anger to show authority or the price you pay is living in a house of young spoilt brats thta embarrass you and make your life a misery . 

You deliver that, with a quick hard loud rant about their behavior, how you are the senior one, and they WILL show you respect in your house, but with you feeling guilty yourself as it was the last resort you did not want to use. 

They stand before you a trembling wreck of a human being for a minute, suddenly realize they have been completely out of order in all this are totally wrong to have done it whatever IT was and in ten minutes time after a 5 minute stay sent to their bedrooms they transform back onto that little angel you love them for being.

Talking sense and niceness didnt work - it hardly ever does. However it's part of what life having kids is all about so you know a couple of times a year you're gonna have to do this 

Incredibly what you never imagined is that your wife/husband the woman of your dreams you life partner would also start making YOU have to deal with her behavior IN THE SAME WAY!!

It's exactly the same but of course you expect your partner being an adult to know how this should work should play out. BIGGEST mistake. As we know they are not acting like a mature adult so they can't see any of that.

That's why they HAVE to be shouted at, they have to experience 'not very nice', they need to be forced to see the consequences of their appalling actions because nice is not going to get that through the love bubble they are happily sat in

Now when they venture onto here they are nearly always still in that bubble or maybe near the edge of it.

Every betrayed here will know exactly what I'm talking about even in this one post and they see they are like children and need to be shook up.

So when a wayward sits here on a thread proclaiming their woes they are faced with a bucket load of men woman like me who yes want to know why and yes would like to understand and sympathize but actually after what we have been through want to correct and put them right in no uncertain terms.

We KNOW how this works - you waywards DONT. Sorry but that's a fact - you don't and that is not our fault. There is no nice at the beginning - none. Waywards don't like 'nice' like children they like what they like and like spoilt brat children have got their own way for far too long.

Again it's NOT about throwing out personal attacks of abuse ( which IS wrong) but frankly even that goes some way to making them realize a lot more the strength the depth of the anger bitterness animosity THEY have created.

This thread has made me realize a couple of things actually. One is that although verbal abuse of another person is of course wrong the paradox is that actually it does in most cases help push nudge the wayward 'get the point'. Sorry you may not want to hear it but it does - that is the reality. It is a fine line

TAM is a testing ground in many ways for a couple deep in trouble, almost an initiation ground and from what I've seen the waywards ability to come on here, face the realities - that immense bitterness anger bewilderment betrayal THEY have caused is a part of their growing up and becoming an adult again. It is a major part of them owning their behavior and hopefully coming out the other side a better and more trustworthy person who deserves a good partner. 

(genuine question - Do you 'almostrecovered' see any sense in any of that?)


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

I have my opinions of WS's here but its wrong to rip into them,let them know how much it hurt the BS yes but no attacking.
I may think lowly of some of them but if they are here on Tams then they must know how much in the wrong they are.
That's a huge first step.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

calvin said:


> I have my opinions of WS's here but its wrong to rip into them,let them know how much it hurt the BS yes but no attacking.
> I may think lowly of some of them but if they are here on Tams then they must know how much in the wrong they are.
> That's a huge first step.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree, Calvin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> I agree, Calvin.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Morning M&M
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Well that's my main point in all this well said
> 
> I'll make an anology - a very good one actually
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with what you say. I would say that there is a CONSTRUCTIVE way to do that and a DESTRUCTIVE way to do that. 

Would you agree?


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

Great thread. I think it's set a record for the number of "likes" per post! Not too sure I can add much that hasn't already been said, but I understand both sides.

As a BS, I don't have much empathy for WSs. But, we humans are a flawed lot, so if the WS is indeed remorseful & takes responsibility for their actions, I will tend to be willing to hear them out.

If, OTOH, the WS is in the fog or is making excuses or is blame-shifting, etc. I would be less willing to allow them to spew their BS unchecked.

The bottom line is that human betrayal is a selfish, despicable act that can cause years of damage to the person (& families) of the betrayed.


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## candy12 (Apr 22, 2013)

As a WS who has posted her story here and received a few judgmental attacks (along with a slew of direct, but very helpful responses, so thank you), I can tell you that one of most useful bits of information I have learned here is how an affair is an addiction. Alcoholics, drug users etc.. also lie, steal and betray loved ones to feed their addictions, and recovery for them doesn't happen as a result of character assassination. To help an addict, you need to make them understand the damage they are causing to both themselves and loved ones, and direct them to professional help.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I think that this is an interesting point.
> 
> A WS who encounters the incredible anger of his/her BS can quite easily write it off as "his/her problem" - they tell themselves that the BS should just "deal with it" or that they are an angry and insecure person and the problem therefore lies with them (the BS), not with the cheater.
> 
> When faced with the anger of a whole array of BS's they can't use the same excuse. It's much harder for them to tell themselves that every BS on here is angry or insecure. They either have to do mental gymnastics or they have to accept that cheating causes huge anger because it causes huge pain. Then they might begin to get it. Depersonalising the issue can lead to insight. But that requires them to see the great anger, bewilderment and sense of betrayal that BS's on here generally feel.



For me, personally, it was NOT the anger or the harsh accusations coming from the BS's on TAM that began to open my eyes to the immense suffering that my BS was enduring. It truly wasn't. In reality, the anger, the accusations, only made me feel a greater sense of urgency to "defend" myself...... to explain my reasons for having the EA/PA. In trying to explain my reasoning, it sounded like I was trying to justify my "A." (I truly was not psychologically capable of discerning the difference between reasoning and justification at the time.) That in turn, brought more pain and more suffering to my BS. 

To make a very, very long story short, it was reading the stories of the other BS's on TAM describing their gut wrenching pain, heartache, devastation, bewilderment, shock, etc., that spoke to me. There was too much pain, resentment and bitterness between B1 and myself, at the time, for either of us to "feel" the pain that the other was feeling. We were the source of one another's pain. We'd had a difficult marriage for a long time prior to my affair.

I struggled to even comprehend that he was in pain. To be honest, after the years of total disconnect between us, not of my choosing, I didn't have any idea that he would truly care. He'd made it painfully clear that he didn't want, desire or need me, and that he never would again, so how could I have known that he would be devastated that I had turned elsewhere?

Through the eyes of the other BS's who were kind enough to share their own personal stories of betrayal, without the insistence of casting soul crushing judgements and character assassinating accusations, I began to understand what my betrayal had done to my husband and my heart began to open, then break, then soften, then embrace my BS. THEN, true remorse, regret, and devastation began to set it. 

That's when our reconciliation began.......

That is MY story, that is MY truth.........


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

EI, thanks for sharing. You should be proud of yourself that you had the ability realize the damage you were doing, and then cared enough to eventually feel remorse, & then work toward reconciliation. 

I'm afraid, though, that you are the exception, not the rule. As we know here on TAM, the majority of WS's (particularly the WAS-type), never show regret/ remorse. Thanks for posting & best of luck in your R!!


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

EI said:


> For me, personally, it was NOT the anger or the harsh accusations coming from the BS's on TAM that began to open my eyes to the immense suffering that my BS was enduring. It truly wasn't. In reality, the anger, the accusations, only made me feel a greater sense of urgency to "defend" myself...... to explain my reasons for having the EA/PA. In trying to explain my reasoning, it sounded like I was trying to justify my "A." (I truly was not psychologically capable of discerning the difference between reasoning and justification at the time.) That in turn, brought more pain and more suffering to my BS.
> 
> To make a very, very long story short, it was reading the stories of the other BS's on TAM describing their gut wrenching pain, heartache, devastation, bewilderment, shock, etc., that spoke to me. There was too much pain, resentment and bitterness between B1 and myself, at the time, for either of us to "feel" the pain that the other was feeling. We were the source of one another's pain. We'd had a difficult marriage for a long time prior to my affair.
> 
> ...


Yes, THIS!! What has been most helpful and informative on TAM for me has been the same thing, the BSs talking about their feelings and experiences to us (non-aggressively, which can still be intense expression) and those willing to have civilized discussions, and ask and answer questions. If I had experienced what you initially did, EI, it would've been the furthest thing from helpful imaginable. I'm glad you're still here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

Hmmm, interesting thread.

It is interesting that some of the soundest advice for dealing with heartache, such as splitting ways, working out, working on yourself and starting dating without too much time in between, has been vilified as "searching for every answer in a woman's vagina or Athol Kay". Damn, the extreme value of this nugget of wisdom is just too much.

And posts like "I feel sorry for them, they seem so bitter" reek of grandiose delusion, which I guess is a defense mechanism to just be able to write off anything anybody who you disagree with writes. Whatever makes you sleep soundly at night.

I have tried to help mostly BSs and some WSs and while I don't really hit anybody with hard blows, I understand the need for them. In fact, in some of the threads, although I read some replies to the WS and cringed, the WS said "wow, I hadn't thought of that" or something of the sorts. So while, "you are a wh0re and deserve to die" doesn't really help, a lot of other very hard hitting responses and very hard-to-ask questions help. And just because something doesn't really agree with your sensibilities, doesn't mean it is wrong. I don't think we shouldn't be doing what is necessary just because of the insanity called political correctness.

Ultimately, I have to agree with some poster before said. If you think it's an insult, report it. If you don't, stop complaining.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> So while,* "you are a wh0re and deserve to die"* doesn't really help, a lot of other very hard hitting responses and very hard-to-ask questions help.



:iagree: EXACTLY!!!  Just like saying to a BS, "If you spend years neglecting your spouse, denying them an emotional connection, denying them sex for months or years, at a time, drink like fish, live like a slug, don't work to support your family, and make no valuable contribution with the children or in the home, then although 'cheating is never justified' you might not ought to be too surprised when it happens....." 

There are more appropriate and less passive aggressive ways of getting your point across, right???  :scratchhead:

Disclaimer: I just threw out any number of potential spousal complaints..... Not singling out, anyone.....


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

TCSRedhead said:


> I don't disagree with what you say. I would say that there is a CONSTRUCTIVE way to do that and a DESTRUCTIVE way to do that.
> 
> Would you agree?


Yes however, it's quite apparent that sometimes the destructive way is extremely effective in shaking somebody out of their land of unicorns and fairytales

It would be so much more pleasant if we could 'explain' gently intelligently to a wayward just where they are going / gone wrong 

The stark reality is that people in general take more notice when voices are raised - I do initially and then I want more substance - most of us are that way 

But to even pull into EI's post above sorry but anger is a huge factor in getting through that ten inch thick fog the wayward is trolling around in.

Not being a wayward I can't with 100% accuracy say this but if :
1 person shouts something at me in disagreement about something I'll argue my case, 
5 people vehemently arguing against me I'll maybe rise to that challenge, 
10 people all saying the same thing a couple in a vicious abusive way I'd think hang on I don't like this but there's too many I need to look at this 
50 people all screaming the same thing at me even if some of it is unpalatable I'd be thinking "shvt I've got this completely wrong and obviously I'm upsetting them all for them to be so many and so incredibly passionate. 

That mass anger and justification of it is just one thing apart from any purely sensible conversation that would complete hit me right between the eyes

So EI are you saying with 100 % honesty that anger from outside of you and your spouse had no part at all to play in bringing you to your senses. None at all? 

If that is the case then you are I think in an extremely small, extremely small minority 

If that is the case then I applaud you


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Look I'm not trying to piss anyone off here and I absolutely do not agree with mindless abuse but can I just say and with respect here
> 
> Cmon lets all grow a pair - we're all grown men and woman and generally speaking we all know when we've done wrong and we as sure as hell by the age of 30 + can take a hammering here and there especially if deep down we know we deserve it
> 
> ...


I can understand where you are coming from to a degree, BUT, when you have both a BS and WS (a couple) like myself and my FWS (megmg) whom I have struggled to get him to come back to TAM to help with our R.........the FWS already feels like sh1t.... the BS is wanting SO to open up and is actively encouraging them to read and hopefully post here......it could / should be helpful in moving forward........and some jack a$$ comes along and BOOTS your FWS! It isn't helpful to the BS.......it's a massive set back.

It might take a BS weeks to convince a WS to come join in at CWI....and one mindless posting could have the WS running for the hills. Who does this help?

Hopefully if the WS is in R they already feel guilt, shame, remorse, self hatred, disgust to name a few ( I asked megmg for this list) then they don't really need others to point this out. 

I seriously don't believe any WS would be here, could be forced to be here if they didn't want help and reformation to make a good and true R.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

LRgirl,

You forced your WS to be here right? Coerced, forced, whatever word you are looking for.

This is a forum for people who come of their own free will, and people try to lend their help of their own free will. Some are soft. Some are not.

If you want to start a forum for the coddling of WS then please do so but this forum as it is is very good. I am sorry that your husband got his panties in a bunch and had his feelings hurt...

Actually I am not sorry for him. You are. He cheated on you and did a fair amount of damage to your family and you are sorry for him being taken to task. This is Stockholm Syndrome like... Your husband is no longer abusing you so you take that as an act of kindness. 

I understand being perturbed by some over the top rhetoric, but you are upset that your husband isn't here. IT IS NOT ANYONE HERE'S FAULT. It is your husbands fault. He doesn't want to hear it. He is rug sweeping and you are letting him get away with it. That is your choice but you can only be helped if you want help...


Here is your husband's attitude... 'Don't presume to know me, I only had a couple of one night stands... You don't know me. I'm not a cheater... I'm sorry so don't be mean to me.'

I'm going to say that people here think that attitude are going to be tough on him. You can empathize with the people here who were betrayed. Your husband cannot or hasn't...


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

MovingAhead said:


> LRgirl,
> 
> You forced your WS to be here right? Coerced, forced, whatever word you are looking for.
> 
> ...


I actually did not _force_ my H here......he was already a member since last year, I discussed the benefits of him returning to CWI as I had re-joined.

I don't need to start a forum for WS spouse, and I can assure you, I do not 'coddle' my H. I am fully aware of his despicable behavior, as is he. We are trying to R.....and mostly doing OK.

I am complimented that you consider I have some chance in changing the way TAM forum is run :scratchhead: Why would you presume I want to change anything?....I posted a thread_ I _thought relevant, and it would seem many others agree with it to some extent.

My H never once mentioned, or posted 'getting his panties in a bunch' or had 'his feelings hurt' being here at TAM......I posted this thread as my general view about the way some WS are treated, and it actually stems from the way a poster replied to Red on one of my threads!

My H actually *is here*, he reads most nights, he might not post...but he reads either way. I am not letting him get away with anything, i can assure you. He's been to hell and back to stay with me and our children, so please do not presume to know.

This post / thread was not actually about my H....although, yes, he is a FWS, and yes I would prefer him to remain here reading without being disillusioned by some small minded ignoramus!

My H has fully owned what he did, it is I that is struggling with what he did...and you are not helping one iota! So why get involved if all you can offer is your negativity?

This thread was seemingly about posters like you!

Case made!


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Headspin said:


> So EI are you saying with 100 % honesty that anger from outside of you and your spouse had no part at all to play in bringing you to your senses. None at all?
> 
> If that is the case then you are I think in an extremely small, extremely small minority
> 
> If that is the case then I applaud you


I wonder how small the minority actually is, if it is in fact a minority at all? (How many people are actually helped by being attacked or raged at by strangers? I don't know about that one... I thought people usually became more resistant when subjected to hostility from "the outside", not less.) 

This kind of treatment would not have helped me, either. Anyone being aggressive or abusive to me makes me shut down in some way or another. I will simply withdraw. The opposite of becoming aware. 

I had already come to my senses by the time I got to TAM, but the information I found on TAM (as well as civilized and respectful conversations with BSs and even remorseful fWSs) helped to further that. What actually brought me to my senses in the first place was GF moving out and telling me that she couldn't be around me unless I was in therapy. THAT made me realize that things must be very bad indeed, and that was what gave me the push I needed to really started examining myself and how I had been. So it was my betrayed who brought me to my senses, not anyone or anything else.

Just my two cents.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Soulpotato, I'm with ya on that. I am so thankful that my husband kicked me out because it made me see the reality of what I was doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Yes however, it's quite apparent that sometimes the destructive way is extremely effective in shaking somebody out of their land of unicorns and fairytales
> 
> It would be so much more pleasant if we could 'explain' gently intelligently to a wayward just where they are going / gone wrong
> 
> ...


Headspin, this is B1, EI's husband. I can honestly tell you that in our case it absolutely did not help her or us. The angry accusations that she should die, that she is a piece of sh!t, that she's a wh0re served no useful purpose. Seriously, how could it?

The verbal assaults did nothing to help us on our journey. I could go on and on about how damaging those assaults were and how they set us back more than helped us but you're just going to have to believe me when I say it did not help her or us in any way. If it did help and I believed it made a difference I would honestly tell you so.

What really made the difference for EI was reading and listening to the BS's here. Through their pain she awoke to mine and also saw the error of her ways. And yes some of the tougher posters would come along and say their piece and they were hard hitting but still reasonable, their posts were thought provoking not just simple assaults.

EI and I are here because of caring posters, posters who shared their story, their heartache, their hurts, their journey. Not from people that called her names and tried to make her feel less human.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

The hostility also drives BS' away who DO need help. My H came to TAM thinking he would get help and got a lot of people telling him to throw me out (even though we were committed to R) and a bunch of other stuff.

So, he's done with TAM even though it would have been a good support system.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

TCSRedhead said:


> The hostility also drives BS' away who DO need help. My H came to TAM thinking he would get help and got a lot of people telling him to throw me out (even though we were committed to R) and a bunch of other stuff.
> 
> So, he's done with TAM even though it would have been a good support system.


Sorry to hear that. I thought he was a decent guy. Been wondering if he's had any success w his paint jobs. (lots of talent)


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

_Snipped_

My H never once mentioned, or posted 'getting his panties in a bunch' or had 'his feelings hurt' being here at TAM......I posted this thread as my general view about the way some WS are treated, and it actually stems from the way a poster replied to Red on one of my threads!

_I haven't told my wife the truth, the thing that puts me off this site sometimes is the presumption people know exactly what has been said, another bad night for us revolving around what happened and what has been said, *I took offence at lrgirl saying on here that I have said don't remember and I don't know as I haven't said this words for a while, lrgirl does not understand the actions of what I did and honestly looking back I hate some of the stupid choices I made *in the spur of the moment looking a for the the .buzz. _

_This is your husbands quote on the thread you posted before... This is what I call getting you panties in a bunch... that may be just me_

My H actually is here, he reads most nights, he might not post...but he reads either way. I am not letting him get away with anything, i can assure you. He's been to hell and back to stay with me and our children, *so please do not presume to know.*

_I don't presume anything. I read the posts what people say and I give my two cents. You see behavior patterns repeated and you see how certain people act and they tend to fall in the same category. You call them out on it._

This post / thread was not actually about my H....although, yes, he is a FWS, and yes I would prefer him to remain here reading without being disillusioned by some small minded ignoramus!

_My H has fully owned what he did, it is I that is struggling with what he did...and you are not helping one iota! So why get involved if all you can offer is your negativity?_

_This is what confuses me. If you need him to do something that will help you heal and he wont do it then why are you getting mad at me?_

This thread was seemingly about posters like you!

_Both you and you husband used the term 'Don't Presume to Know' That to me comes off as arrogant. 

This thread was seemingly about posters like you! (That's just rude)

I can only read what you post. I never once said your husband was low life scum or anything like that. I told him he wasn't doing all he could to help you and it's true. Holding someone accountable should not offend you. I don't know what your husband is doing... You don't offer that information. Neither does he. I also 98 percent of the time hope for reconciliation. I don't believe in divorce. I do not lambaste WS and I believe a lot of their input is immeasurable._



Case made!

_Case made for what? You are angry at me for what exactly?Speaking my mind? 

Honestly I hope you and your husband reconcile. If you are looking for support I understand but it's more like you are looking for sympathy. I feel sorry for everyone here. We wouldn't be here if things were ok. 

The questions I have are what are you doing to help yourself? You say you are in R. What are you doing to get better for yourself? Do you take up a hobby? Do you run, go to the gym? Do you have a plan that you work? Do you force yourself to work the plan even when you feel it is the last thing you want to do?

Maybe I am missing something but I don't see you posting about what you doing to get through this. What steps you are taking, how what you are doing is or is not working etc... I don't know.

You seem to want your husband to 'feel' the pain of the BS to help him understand... I understand why you want that and to some extent it is good but you have to understand guys don't think like women in general. If something is wrong, we don't feel it, we fix it, because we are guys. It is how guys are made. I personally think it has to do with the sticks and snails and puppy dog tails as an ingredient... Maybe I am just presuming again... Who knows?

If you want the most out of this site, I think it is good advice to tell people what you are doing. Ask for advice... Say what is working, what triggers you etc... Talk about sticking points in your R and see how other people got over those...

Everyone has opinions here. Some you agree with some you don't, but there is a lof of great advice here. You get many points of view but ultimately it is your choice on the path you want to follow. Good luck with yours. 

Happy Mothers Day again!_


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

So I've taken my share of lumps since coming here, and most rightfully so. But I can tell you that the abusive, you're worthless, if you loved your husband and child you'd disappear from their lives forever type posts will never leave me. To have one poster call the baby I'm carrying a "living marker of the worst time in my husband's life" has haunted me daily throughout an already stressful, difficult pregnancy. How is a statement like that possibly helpful to my BS as he faces having another child with me? Even with the good, hard, helpful posts, every time I see my thread or Matt's has been bumped up, I have a fearful, nauseating physical reaction to the overwhelming certainty that it is someone else chiming in about how irredeemable I am. 

Even tonight, I just got a PM:



> Re: ......
> bloodyburn77 11:24 PM Yesterday
> DAMN YOU STILL APPEAR HERE AND HAVE NOL SHAME as a ***** ... YOU ARE ***** FOREVER YOUR MOTHER IS A ***** YOU AND YOUR OM ARE GOING TO DIE SOON IN HORRIBLE WAY DAMN YOU AND YOU HAVE NO SHAME YOU ARE ***** FOREVER YOU ARE ***** FOREVER YOUR MOTHER IS A ***** FOREVER
> [Reply]


Logically I know it's someone pouring out their own hurt on me that is deliberately caustic. But when I first joined, add 2-3 of these per week on top of the harsh public posts and it is not surprising that even people who want help can't face staying here to get it. I think there's a reason most of the fWS who do stick around are really working on R after all this. It takes an incredibly tenacious person to weather that, plus the storm at home, to find a path to improving yourself and hopefully your relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Wow Ms. Mathias...

That is a pretty awful PM. I have to admit I am vastly ignorant to PMs for WS here. That is just undeserved and cowardly. If you don't have the courage to publicly say something then I guess that makes you a Eunuch?


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> Soulpotato, I'm with ya on that. I am so thankful that my husband kicked me out because it made me see the reality of what I was doing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Most WS on this site were caught and that's the reality for the majority of the cases. You wouldn't have stopped until the consequences of what you did were thrust on you. 

If you were to willingly put your ass on the line, that is worthy of respect. It takes a lot of courage to confess, not a whole lot to get caught. 

Not to sound like the angel of virtue, I'm not sure I would confess either but I want to ask all you fWS a question, would you really have stopped if you weren't caught??


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

MovingAhead said:


> _Snipped_
> 
> My H never once mentioned, or posted 'getting his panties in a bunch' or had 'his feelings hurt' being here at TAM......I posted this thread as my general view about the way some WS are treated, and it actually stems from the way a poster replied to Red on one of my threads!
> 
> ...


****_I haven't told my wife the truth, the thing that puts me off this site sometimes is the presumption people know exactly what has been said, another bad night for us revolving around what happened and what has been said, *I took offence at lrgirl saying on here that I have said don't remember and I don't know as I haven't said this words for a while, lrgirl does not understand the actions of what I did and honestly looking back I hate some of the stupid choices I made *in the spur of the moment looking a for the the .buzz. _****

Where did you find the above?.....in particular 'I haven't told my wife the truth' I'm guessing you have taken clips and edited.....but please show me where my H has posted these words.

Thanks


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> So I've taken my share of lumps since coming here, and most rightfully so. But I can tell you that the abusive, you're worthless, if you loved your husband and child you'd disappear from their lives forever type posts will never leave me. To have one poster call the baby I'm carrying a "living marker of the worst time in my husband's life" has haunted me daily throughout an already stressful, difficult pregnancy. How is a statement like that possibly helpful to my BS as he faces having another child with me? Even with the good, hard, helpful posts, every time I see my thread or Matt's has been bumped up, I have a fearful, nauseating physical reaction to the overwhelming certainty that it is someone else chiming in about how irredeemable I am.
> 
> Even tonight, I just got a PM:
> 
> ...


No that's terrible. Uncalled for 

However, although far right of the general calling out of a wayward it DOES once again show you even now, right there on the page, the colossal betrayal anger bitterness rage and bewilderment a betrayed spouse has endured and AGAIN I'm not supporting that specific abuse, but it does make you the wayward see and feel just how how deep this pain and suffering goes. 

We are all different and we all deal with this kind of abuse in different ways. For me that would be downright hurtful and spiteful BUT only me personally, I would take that as the biggest wake up call of all - if enough people exhibited that kind of feeling to me as strong as that or a little more diluted it would be enough to shake the very fog off my ass and help me see straight

In all truthfulness I think if somebody said "now look here you have been dishonest and a really bad boy hurt a lot of people so stop it" That FOR ME would be not enough that would roll of my (as a wayward) back as water off a duck.

I'm sorry but waking a wayward out of their comfort zone from what I see needs no soft soaping no prodding and watching 'out for their feelings' 

From what I've seen that just does not do it. 

EI may be the one who is the exception but I find it difficult to accept that a wayward, of their own accord wakes up one morning 'unprovoked' and realizes how appalling they've been and is repentant showing true remorse and it's 'all go' for the reconciliation - just like that.

In nearly every case I've seen on here they need to be kicked up the backside in every possible way emotionally and mentally.

I'd like to recount the times I've also seen a wayward realize the gravity of what they've done after opening up a thread and peering over the bunker. It tends to take a few pages but most of them finally get it after the opening barrage. Unfortunately its in reality, not the barrage of sympathy and understanding that gets them there but the reverse

I do accept that this is not easy for you waywards and takes some balls and I do admire that BUT it's your only way through to be honest. You opened up this truckful of worms and so sadly these are the consequences.

I would say if there was another nicer way of making you see the error of your ways I'd be all for it but I honestly don't think that exists


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

Headspin said:


> No that's terrible. Uncalled for
> 
> However, although far right of the general calling out of a wayward it DOES once again show you even now, right there on the page, the colossal betrayal anger bitterness rage and bewilderment a betrayed spouse has endured and AGAIN I'm not supporting that specific abuse, but it does make you the wayward see and feel just how how deep this pain and suffering goes.
> 
> ...



I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and it is understandable to say most WS need the kick up the a$$...but not to the point where, I think it was EI said she felt like suicide was her only option at one point because some members here at a specific time. (I would have to go back and re-read)

Have found EI post.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/1806777-post55.html


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

Kicking me in the backside, accomplished nothing with me other than the desire to kick back, twice. I was interested in understanding why my husband kicked me. I wasn't interested in getting more kicking. Some of the kicking didn't come across as "Look, I'm trying to help you see!" it came across as "Great, fresh meat to kick around!" and there's no doubt in my mind there are members here for the sole reason of using WS for their own personal benefit, to make themselves feel better. It's selfish and it's irresponsible. There's a reason for it but it's not an excuse. I might understand it but I don't tolerate it. Nobody should.

Digging past the jerk remarks, the sarcasm and insults is really the only way to get to the good stuff on here. You have to go dig for it. Maybe there should be a disclosure somewhere: Wear asbestos suit, bring shovel.

I understand that BS are not here to help WS. They are here for themselves and that's a Blessing. Reading through the sadness here, nobody should get hurt like that! 

I can only speak for myself. I don't tolerate insults. I don't mind someone telling me what I did was horrible and selfish - let me have it. I DO mind someone telling me I'm unworthy, un-redeemable, going to hell, a serial cheater. I object to being called a cheater as if I'm still cheating. I'm not. I have cheated previously, I'm a former cheater. I have played soccer previously, I'm not a soccer player anymore.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> So I've taken my share of lumps since coming here, and most rightfully so. But I can tell you that the abusive, you're worthless, if you loved your husband and child you'd disappear from their lives forever type posts will never leave me. To have one poster call the baby I'm carrying a "living marker of the worst time in my husband's life" has haunted me daily throughout an already stressful, difficult pregnancy. How is a statement like that possibly helpful to my BS as he faces having another child with me? Even with the good, hard, helpful posts, every time I see my thread or Matt's has been bumped up, I have a fearful, nauseating physical reaction to the overwhelming certainty that it is someone else chiming in about how irredeemable I am.
> 
> Even tonight, I just got a PM:
> 
> ...


Mrs M, this PM is horrible. I cannot imagine the hatred and rage you have weathered on TAM, publicly and privately. *No one deserves that.* The vitriol that these people spew says way more about them than it does about you. I know that doesn't make it any less haunting or destructive, but please hang in there.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Headspin said:


> No that's terrible. Uncalled for
> 
> However, although far right of the general calling out of a wayward it DOES once again show you even now, right there on the page, the colossal betrayal anger bitterness rage and bewilderment a betrayed spouse has endured and AGAIN I'm not supporting that specific abuse, *but it does make you the wayward see and feel just how how deep this pain and suffering goes.*


I think it just makes her have a new appreciation for how horrible people can be. Other than that, the impact is maybe some trauma and damage for her, adding to what she is already suffering. How does that help anything? She shouldn't have to endure harassment and torture.



Headspin said:


> We are all different and we all deal with this kind of abuse in different ways. For me that would be downright hurtful and spiteful BUT only me personally, I would take that as the biggest wake up call of all - if enough people exhibited that kind of feeling to me as strong as that or a little more diluted it would be enough to shake the very fog off my ass and help me see straight


That's YOU. For others, it would be traumatic and would not serve as any kind of "wake-up call". Just saying.



Headspin said:


> I'm sorry but waking a wayward out of their comfort zone from what I see needs no soft soaping no prodding and watching 'out for their feelings'


Someone can leave their comfort zone in many other ways than being attacked and hated on, and really, I don't see how a barrage like that is going to make anyone leave their comfort zone - just the area the harassment is coming from. 

Sorry, but feelings are real, and if people don't acknowledge that and watch out for them, their message is going to be lost. Tromping all over a wayward's feelings and telling them that their feelings don't matter is not going to make the point that you want to make. It's just going to alienate them.



Headspin said:


> From what I've seen that just does not do it.


One size does not fit all.



Headspin said:


> EI may be the one who is the exception but I find it difficult to accept that a wayward, of their own accord wakes up one morning 'unprovoked' and realizes how appalling they've been and is repentant showing true remorse and it's 'all go' for the reconciliation - just like that.


LOL, have you read anything I've said in this thread? (As well as people saying that the attacking/aggression did not help them.) So basically you don't believe people like me, no matter how much we tell you that that's the case? Just come out and say it if that's how you feel, but you're wrong. My own waking up wasn't "unprovoked". As I said, losing the person who is most important and hearing silence from her is a lot more provocative than aggression from strangers would be. (Also, EI is fabulous, but I don't think she's necessarily _the_ exception.  ) The "provocation" of waking up doesn't have to be loud or explosive. It can be just the opposite.



Headspin said:


> I would say if there was another nicer way of making you see the error of your ways I'd be all for it but I honestly don't think that exists


Why won't you listen? :scratchhead: It's just about entirely pointless from what I can see for any of the people on this thread trying to explain things to you because you are so insistent on your way being right, and being the only way. If that's how you want to be, that's your choice, but don't tell people that they don't know what will or won't work for them and that a baptism by fire is required for the wake-up, even when some people are flat out telling you that that WASN'T their experience or what woke them up.

I'm sure there are plenty of waywards who were woken up before they came to TAM, and for those that were woken up ON TAM, plenty that were not reached by the firing squad, but by people being reasonable and logical and not lambasting them or outright attacking.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> I think it just makes her have a new appreciation for how horrible people can be. Other than that, the impact is maybe some trauma and damage for her, adding to what she is already suffering. How does that help anything? She shouldn't have to endure harassment and torture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well said SP :iagree: 100% and then some


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Re: ......
> bloodyburn77 11:24 PM Yesterday
> DAMN YOU STILL APPEAR HERE AND HAVE NOL SHAME as a ***** ... YOU ARE ***** FOREVER YOUR MOTHER IS A ***** YOU AND YOUR OM ARE GOING TO DIE SOON IN HORRIBLE WAY DAMN YOU AND YOU HAVE NO SHAME YOU ARE ***** FOREVER YOU ARE ***** FOREVER YOUR MOTHER IS A ***** FOREVER
> [Reply]


So basically, people...this is what it comes down to. Scumbag, cowards like this "bloodyburn77" are so filled with self loathing and hatred that they create an account for the sole purpose of attacking others. This account has never posted a f'ng thing. Ever. Simply someone with real life issues who probably needs a psychiatrist, but never will.

See...THIS is how bad some waywards AND betrayeds get treated here. They get treated this way by people who can't get over their own emotional pain that instead of dealing with it, they puke it out at others. Doesn't matter who they spew at...they just spew.

If you're here, as wayward or betrayed, you owe it to YOURSELF and the board to check your emotional well being before committing to writing a post. If you're in a bad place - so be it. We have ALL been there. Just remember that you are not helping when you post out of unfiltered emotion.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> ****_I haven't told my wife the truth, the thing that puts me off this site sometimes is the presumption people know exactly what has been said, another bad night for us revolving around what happened and what has been said, *I took offence at lrgirl saying on here that I have said don't remember and I don't know as I haven't said this words for a while, lrgirl does not understand the actions of what I did and honestly looking back I hate some of the stupid choices I made *in the spur of the moment looking a for the the .buzz. _****
> 
> Where did you find the above?.....in particular 'I haven't told my wife the truth' I'm guessing you have taken clips and edited.....but please show me where my H has posted these words.
> 
> Thanks


I just don't know what to do........

Post #64

I snipped. I didn't edit anything. It looks like he was saying that he didn't tell the truth, but in fact he was talking about people assuming he wasn't I believe. Sorry for that. The bold part of the text was my point. The 'I took offense' part...


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Headspin

there have been numerous examples of FWS's stating that they ignored the vitriol and responded better towards the stern but polite posts. Please give me examples of posters where this alternative method has worked.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

BjornFree said:


> Most WS on this site were caught and that's the reality for the majority of the cases. You wouldn't have stopped until the consequences of what you did were thrust on you.
> 
> If you were to willingly put your ass on the line, that is worthy of respect. It takes a lot of courage to confess, not a whole lot to get caught.
> 
> Not to sound like the angel of virtue, I'm not sure I would confess either but I want to ask all you fWS a question, would you really have stopped if you weren't caught??


I DID stop before the extent of my last remaining EA was exposed. I was done and already making changes to get where I am today. It was telling the OW that I was done and was going to try to R with GF that sent her (the OW) into a vengeful rage (and led to the full exposure).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

MovingAhead said:


> I just don't know what to do........
> 
> Post #64
> 
> I snipped. I didn't edit anything. It looks like he was saying that he didn't tell the truth, but in fact he was talking about people assuming he wasn't I believe. Sorry for that. The bold part of the text was my point. The 'I took offense' part...


Thank you for clearing that up. 

Can you not see how and why someone might take offence at some of the pre-judgement that goes on here, without first allowing yourself (not just ref. to you) to get to know the poster just a little, some members are being down right rude....suggesting, for instance that someone is not telling the truth...how the heck can someone else know that about my H? 

My H has made some bad choices no doubt about that, but he is *not just those choices*. That is not the full sum of him. 

He has been an excellent father and H for 20 years (discounting his attempted ONS's) ....nothing will / can ever excuse his lousy boundaries, but I believe him when he says he will never cross that line again. 

People need to talk for 5 mins and listen for 10!


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Headspin said:


> No that's terrible. Uncalled for
> 
> However, although far right of the general calling out of a wayward it DOES once again show you even now, right there on the page, the colossal betrayal anger bitterness rage and bewilderment a betrayed spouse has endured and AGAIN I'm not supporting that specific abuse, but it does make you the wayward see and feel just how how deep this pain and suffering goes.
> 
> ...


There is truth to what you are saying, I can't totally disagree. However, I guess what I would like to say is that there is a fine line in being tough and being abusive. Being tough is fine and can work, just being mean and abusive is, well, simply abusive.

Name calling, saying you don't deserve to live, your a piece of sh!t etc. do nothing to help a person. You are just going to run them off or make them fight for their right to live. Not focus on the A and their horrible choice.

EI was definitely in the fog in the first month or so, but like I said before it was the other BS's here telling their stories that got through to her. But she is a very empathetic person so that doesn't surprise me, she saw and felt their pain then knew mine was real.
That was the BIG aha moment for her. 
Not someone saying to her she should die by stoning.

You saw mrs. M's PM, EI got those too. You all don't see all the abuse that goes on behind the scenes. It just didn't help us.

When you see the goal is R, stop the abuse it's not going to work.

Now in some cases sure you can see right away they, the ws, do not get it. They are cake eating and not remorseful. Shock away, but you still don't have to get abusive. If they are here you need to keep them on the line in hopes to get through.

The cookie cutter approach, the shock and abuse, will not work in ALL cases. Surely you can see this.

We were lucky EI took it, she handled it and we got through the hate and abuse. It did make it tougher though, there where evenings spent entirely on defending EI's right to breath and be alive. A complete waste of our time then.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

B1 said:


> We were lucky EI took it, she handled it and we got through the hate and abuse. It did make it tougher though, there where evenings spent entirely on defending EI's right to breath and be alive. A complete waste of our time then.


And on the flip-side, we lost insight from Regret because she hurt from some of the remarks and she didn't think it was fair that I needed to defend her. She felt that wasn't helping me because I was still very angry with her and decided to stop posting so that *I* could move forward.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Headspin - seeing the rage, pain, and devastation shared by BS's has definitely helped me as I work to be more empathetic towards Matt and really know the impact of my choices on him.

BUT the posts that are anger only, with no insight - lashing out, telling me to walk away, that the best gift I can give my children is to give them up, to have an abortion, to disappear from my husband's life forever didn't help me see that. They only made me feel that there was no hope for me. So every day that i face one of those, I have to double my efforts to keep my desire to improve and progress. I already face plenty of interactions at home that tear away at my hope for R, for self-improvement, for overcoming my affair and still managing to be a passable mother. The denigrating, abusive posts hurled at most WS's when they first join, or when a new BS joins and discovers a WS thread, rob me of precious energy that could be used to help my husband through a bad moment or play with my child and attempt to create a little positivity and normalcy in his life.

Maybe I'm a wuss. I know I should just skip over them, report them, and look for the true wisdom offered in the tough love posts that DOES make a difference to a WS - people like Turnera, Alte Dame, Bfree, Dig, Racer, Acabado, and others manage to excel at that type of communication. But those other posts affect me. Each and every one. But I DO keep coming back and looking for that wisdom even when it means facing the abuse.


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## dusty4 (May 8, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> So basically, people...this is what it comes down to. Scumbag, cowards like this "bloodyburn77" are so filled with self loathing and hatred that they create an account for the sole purpose of attacking others.


Damn. I sure as hell am not going to cut any wayward spouse any slack, and will tell it like I see it. But that was just damn ridiculous.


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Most WS on this site were caught and that's the reality for the majority of the cases. You wouldn't have stopped until the consequences of what you did were thrust on you.
> 
> If you were to willingly put your ass on the line, that is worthy of respect. It takes a lot of courage to confess, not a whole lot to get caught.
> 
> Not to sound like the angel of virtue, I'm not sure I would confess either but I want to ask all you fWS a question, would you really have stopped if you weren't caught??


Very good question. EI will answer a little later...at the Dr. right now.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

dusty4 said:


> Damn. I sure as hell am not going to cut any wayward spouse any slack, and will tell it like I see it. But that was just damn ridiculous.


Holding someone's feet to the fire is part in parcel of TAM, but like what that guy did...create an account for the sole purpose of sending that PM, is bullsnot. I mean, no other posts on TAM ever. Nothing. Just a cowardly PM.


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> And on the flip-side, we lost insight from Regret because she hurt from some of the remarks and she didn't think it was fair that I needed to defend her. She felt that wasn't helping me because I was still very angry with her and decided to stop posting so that *I* could move forward.


Just wanted to say what a sad loss it was to loose regrets insight.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

B1 said:


> Just wanted to say what a sad loss it was to loose regrets insight.


I agree.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

What PM?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)




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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> What PM?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Post #165

Visceral and Loathsome


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

dusty4 said:


> Damn. I sure as hell am not going to cut any wayward spouse any slack, and will tell it like I see it. But that was just damn ridiculous.


its like punching someone in the nose and saying now listen....punch...now listen some more...punch ...ok are you hearing me...whack again!
Their nose is spewing blood and they can't really see or hear anything from all the attacks. yet they are supposed to be getting some message, some wisdom, some truth and respond positively?

when you are being attacked you are busy defending yourself, or your simply submitting to it and giving up. 

there were plenty of people who where tough on EI, made her accountable, and made her aware of the damage she caused...they did get through. Yet they never said she was a bad mother, she should just die, she's sh!t etc.. 

When I think about it now its somewhat like parenting. you want to be firm with your children but you don't want to destroy their spirit their soul. That's not the goal but I am becoming aware now that is the goal of some posters.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> I DID stop before the extent of my last remaining EA was exposed. I was done and already making changes to get where I am today. It was telling the OW that I was done and was going to try to R with GF that sent her (the OW) into a vengeful rage (and led to the full exposure).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But you didn't work up the courage to confess to your girlfriend?


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

I am and will always be grateful for the kicks in the behind that quite a number of TAM members gave me in the beginning. Had I gone through a third of what Regret, EI, CM or Mrs. M gone through, I'm not certain I'd have been strong enough to battle through that. 

Even with what we'd gotten in response to C&B's posts, he felt the need to defend me instead of focusing on support and help which really intensified the pain. Here he was trying to defend his wayward wife while dealing with the betrayal and defend the decision to reconcile.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

walkonmars said:


> Sorry to hear that. I thought he was a decent guy. Been wondering if he's had any success w his paint jobs. (lots of talent)


Yeah, he just finished and delivered a bagger to one of the guys here locally and has a hood he's working on for a '32 something or other for someone else. 

He's my rock.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> And on the flip-side, we lost insight from Regret because she hurt from some of the remarks and she didn't think it was fair that I needed to defend her. She felt that wasn't helping me because I was still very angry with her and decided to stop posting so that *I* could move forward.


Is that why she stopped posting on TAM? That's awful because she could have received a lot of help here when she was feeling down. And so many could have benefitted from her wisdom and insight. One reason I love the R thread is because there is no condemnation and lots of support for everyone. Maybe she can come back and post there? In any case she has my support. Anyone who can put up with your crazy azz is okay in my book.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

BjornFree said:


> But you didn't work up the courage to confess to your girlfriend?


This doesn't have a clear yes/no answer, so I'll try to explain. At first, I didn't know about EAs, so I dismissed GF's concerns. But I never kept her in the dark about how much I talked to certain people, and I would often share my thoughts and feelings with her (which was why she knew I was too close to the OWs in the first place). The stuff she didn't know about happened after we were separated, and that was what she was told about by the last OW (but some of the messages talked specifically about feelings for OW while I was still with GF, and that's what really upset her - the additional detail on something she was already aware of). I previously told her of my own volition about other stuff she wouldn't be okay with, but she never seemed interested in more detail. Since we've been talking about R, I've offered to disclose more specific things, but she says she'd rather not know the details. So while I definitely wasn't as forthcoming as I should've been, she wasn't ignorant of these things. I hope that answers your question.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> It takes an incredibly tenacious person to weather that, plus the storm at home, to find a path to improving yourself and hopefully your relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I removed the rest of your post because it was abhorrent to me that anyone would say those things and I couldn't in good conscience see them repeated. I'm truly sorry you had to endure such treatment. I just wanted to say that I was probably the harshest poster in your thread. I took you to task on many occasions but I tried to do so politely and with constructive criticism. However, my purpose was not to make you feel bad but to try to get you to let out the emotional poison that I knew you were storing up. When you finally did I told you that it was good that you let it out because you can't heal while carrying around all that baggage. I think because you chose to stick around and continue to read and interact you were able to internalize much of what a BS goes through and thereby you could relate a bit better as to what Matt was going through. I know your journey is not over but obviously you are on the right road.

There are those that constantly feel the need to get out the 2x4 and apply it to the heads of both WS and BS alike. All I will say is that 2x4's may be advisable in some situations but using them ad nausem only gets you broken wood and splinters. And you can't build or rebuild with broken wood and splinters can you?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

bfree said:


> Is that why she stopped posting on TAM? That's awful because she could have received a lot of help here when she was feeling down. And so many could have benefitted from her wisdom and insight. One reason I love the R thread is because there is no condemnation and lots of support for everyone. Maybe she can come back and post there? In any case she has my support. Anyone who can put up with your crazy azz is okay in my book.


That is one of the reasons she stopped posting. She saw me sticking up for her and I remember her saying that I was here to heal myself and I was spending too much time defending her. She slowly backed out and didn't make a big deal out of it.

Her last real posts were the night I almost walked out on 8/30 and they were in the Reconciliation thread.

I've told her that some ask for her and still make comments about her, and that if she sticks to the ONE thread, she will do fine. I know she has a ton of insight, like EI and others. I know she can help coax someone out of their fog. I know she can do all of this because of what you said. If she can put up with my crazy azz, she can most certainly deal with the occasional knucklehead here.

(thanks for the compliment btw )


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

“We cheated, you and me, and someone noticed. I noticed you; someone else noticed me. It hurts us. That's not so bad. So many people cheat. Everywhere on every level. Everyone's cheated. I'm just saying that you don't need to see yourself as a cheater. Because that's not who you are. You're someone who cheated. There's a difference, and you should try to get that difference, or that's who you'll grow up to be.”
― Anne Lamott, Crooked Little Heart


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I remember Regret got it a lot worse than I did on TAM. One day I remember reading a really nasty comment someone said to her just because she said she was having a bad day. It really pissed me off. I believe I said something to that guy and I was new to the thread, she said something in defense telling me that it was ok that he said that. I was baffled!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

I'll say it again, one of the reasons I HATE the internet is because people don't think they have to have any accountability for what they say. 

TAM being (largely) the exception. I just don't surf the net any more, but I'm SO glad I found this forum. I have nobody else to talk to but you folks, and you don't have an agenda other than the primary purpose of this site. 

Thanks to all of you who have helped. Not just me, but all the folks here who have been helped. You can pat yourselves on the back!


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

It is real simple some people don't care that they hurt people. A study was done not to long ago and published in time on the way the brain processes pain. The study revealed that it does not matter to the mind whether the pain is physical or emotional it reacts in the same way. Have you ever heard of a person dying of emotional shock or pain? Yes it happens the body goes into shock and the blood pools in the chest cavity denying the brain blood. I have had enough pain in my life to know that it fvcking hurts and that I don't want to be the cause of it. Other people have had there own share of pain and react in the opposite and want to try to inflict that pain on others.:scratchhead: I just don't understand that. That being said I find it a lot easier to be nice on the web than I do in real life still working on the not hurting people in real life thing.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> Headspin
> 
> there have been numerous examples of FWS's stating that they ignored the vitriol and responded better towards the stern but polite posts. Please give me examples of posters where this alternative method has worked.


Are you serious ?

Of the hundreds of threads / posts in the last year?

There are bucketloads and I'll not spend half a day going through them and listing them on here. Every week you can see a thread of some kind where the WS figuratively gets a bashing from god knows how many BS and ends up admitting it's helped 'wake them up'

The number oif waywards saying anger doesn't have any affect on them are few and I'm sorry but I just don't accept that to be the case. As I said you cannot ignore so many people having a go at you in the strongest terms admittedly some abusive and it not have some effect 

I also don't believe most react with a 'fight back' or 'depressive' attitude either. It DOES have an effect and I have seen it, say, yesterday I read the Pomlover thread and dozen pages in 'I've realized from TAM just how much I've hurt my husb the anger the depth of feeling has made me realize etc etc' Yet another one.

Again I don't condone ridiculously personal attacks (especially that appalling business from Mathias) although frankly if that was directed at me if I were wayward I would disregard it as exclusively vindictive. These idiots offering nothing else and maybe that's just me but I could ignore that.

What would hurt and sting me are incisive biting probably aggressive vitriolic remarks laden with big home truths and I think that's the same for most people. Enough people giving me that would turn my head, would make me sit up even if I were in some deep fog and I think that is how this works especially on here.

You or EI and a couple of others may be exceptions but it is my personal belief that a wayward really gets the point from aggressive responses at the beginning. Again its a fine line and some of it simply goes too far and I also like all of you feel there's no place for that 

ps here's another from Pomlover I read just now 

Letting him go is the hardest thing but then again I can't even imagine what he must be feeling which is probably much worse.
Thanks again for all your advice, *and know that you did a good thing by giving it to me straight.* The therapists always give hope as do my friends, and none of them really have actually "been there." 

Now just like most of the waywards she took a hammering but once again she got it finally.

I accept not everybody is the same, some being more sensitive than others but the matter of infidelity is about the most emotive I know of and anybody thinking anger and rage having no effect or not being central to the reaction of it is imo way off the mark


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

No one ever said "don't give it to them straight." Whatever THAT means. The problem is the constant bashing, vitriol and HATEFUL remarks masquerading as "teaching a betrayer a lesson."


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

TCSRedhead said:


> I am and will always be grateful for the kicks in the behind that quite a number of TAM members gave me in the beginning..... .


Without reading your thread what form did this take? Did you get pure nonsensical personal abuse or intense aggressive hard but home hitting truths that helped kick you out of the fog.

Or as some suggest was it people just letting you know that you'd "been a bad girl and should wise up to it" ?


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

I bumped up my thread in this forum if you'd care to read through it. I didn't get the nastiness in my thread that EI, Mrs. M, Regret and others did. I got very hard, very to the point answers about what I needed to do.

That's why I'm adamant that constructive, not destructive, anger is the approach needed.

Then, my other half came to the board and was told (some on his thread and some via PM I believe) he was a fool, it was his fault, he should throw me out, etc. despite having stated he was committed to reconciling. So, I've seen both sides of it.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> LOL, have you read anything I've said in this thread? (As well as people saying that the attacking/aggression did not help them.) So basically you don't believe people like me, no matter how much we tell you that that's the case? Just come out and say it if that's how you feel, but you're wrong. My own waking up wasn't "unprovoked". As I said, losing the person who is most important and hearing silence from her is a lot more provocative than aggression from strangers would be. (Also, EI is fabulous, but I don't think she's necessarily _the_ exception.  ) The "provocation" of waking up doesn't have to be loud or explosive. It can be just the opposite.


Mmm have you read anything on this site? in this coping with infidelity forum? 
Because if you had you'd soon notice that the vast majority of wayward spouses that come on here get the message but only after they've suffered a bit at the hands of many many justifiably angry betrayed spouses. Some of the reaction is admittedly over the top (although that's not the norm far from it) but most of it is hard hitting aggressive cutting to the bone home truthing that would and should shake somebody in their fog to their foundations.

You and a couple of others may see it differently and may have experienced it differently but from where I sit and view for 40 minutes a few times a week that is the reality of it. If you think I'm wrong fine, but I think that IS the reality of it. I don't think that's a myth and certainly not something I invented 5 minutes ago. I see it in enough threads to feel I know this to be the case.

I think anybody, wayward or otherwise, trying to claim that anger and rage has no effect or place in helping a wayward understand the true gravity of their terrible actions is fooling themselves.



soulpotato said:


> Why won't you listen? :scratchhead: It's just about entirely pointless from what I can see for any of the people on this thread trying to explain things to you because you are so insistent on your way being right, and being the only way. If that's how you want to be, that's your choice, but don't tell people that they don't know what will or won't work for them and that a baptism by fire is required for the wake-up, even when some people are flat out telling you that that WASN'T their experience or what woke them up.
> 
> I'm sure there are plenty of waywards who were woken up before they came to TAM, and for those that were woken up ON TAM, plenty that were not reached by the firing squad, but by people being reasonable and logical and not lambasting them or outright attacking.


I do listen, I have listened and it's my opinion and I'm not insistent upon anything - it's only my opinion you can make of it what you will. 
I think a baptism of fire is not the worse thing a wayward can encounter. 
I do believe it can help them maybe not in the first moment but after that definitely. 
Yes some people are telling me flat out what that experience was *for them* but I don't believe that to be the norm especially after viewing on here almost every other day for the last year and I'll also add that 
I do not for a moment believe that logicality or reasonableness ever helped wake up a wayward from the fog - ever.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

That Pomlover thread(which is now deleted). Is a good example how threads can get really carried away..last night I read post after post of men bragging very graphically all their sexual acts with women. I sat here last night with my jaw dropped last night reading it. Unbelievable how people don't care what they say on forums.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> That Pomlover thread(which is now deleted). Is a good example how threads can get really carried away..last night I read post after post of men bragging very graphically all their sexual acts with women. I sat here last night with my jaw dropped last night reading it. *Unbelievable how people don't care what they say on forums.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Internet bravado. Internet muscles. That kind of stuff.

Keyboard Commando!!! :rofl:


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> That Pomlover thread(which is now deleted). Is a good example how threads can get really carried away..last night I read post after post of men bragging very graphically all their sexual acts with women. I sat here last night with my jaw dropped last night reading it. Unbelievable how people don't care what they say on forums.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good God! that must have come after I went to bed then.

Before that she had taken some stick but had from what I saw started to realize the truth and reality of what she had been doing 

blimey .........


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

What about the times within the past couple of months that I had inappropriate things said to me just because I was helping out a couple BS' that wanted my opinion? I am not new here, I have been on TAM for the past 15 months. I still get crap thrown in my face as soon as I say that I am a former WS. There are 2 threads where it happened and I was actually trying to talk the BS into leaving their wayward because it seemed their waywards were cake eating. I didn't deserve the comments that a couple idiots said to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

It seems too me there is almost a blanket policy applied to most of the WS by most of the BS's here.
I've seen some WS's get attacked like a Nazi Blitzkrieg from WW 11 ,goes the same for some of the BS's here.
I like what Teddy said,speak softly and carry a big stick.
Sometimes a WS doesn't have much of a chance to get there story out there before the Blitzkrieg starts.
This stuff does seem to follow a script but there are people here who get the smack down a few pages into the (their ) thread.
Patience needs to be excersized a little more before any judgement is thrown around.
My wife,CSS got the snot knocked out of her also when I convinced her to join Tams.
My wife never got physical but did meet the POSOM a few times,she was judged instantly.
Some WS's do deserve it,they come here looking for people to identify with their plight,even when they are
Totally in the wrong.
I guess I just wish some people here would take the time and learn a little more about who is posting
before they rush in and drop bombs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Mmm have you read anything on this site? in this coping with infidelity forum?


Absolutely, I read a ton of the threads on TAM, especially in the CWI forum. Most of what I usually encounter is posted by BSs. I have read posts by waywards who were still in the fog or not getting it, and have put in my two cents there as well.



Headspin said:


> Because if you had you'd soon notice that the vast majority of wayward spouses that come on here get the message but only after they've suffered a bit at the hands of many many justifiably angry betrayed spouses.


I do get what you're trying to say, but still don't agree that that's what gets through to the majority of them. I guess we'll just have to disagree on that one. Of course BSs are justifiably angry, but it's still not cool to try to tear people apart (especially people who aren't even THEIR WS). If GF wants to have at me, I'll take that from her, because I earned it from HER. But I also trust that she will not be senselessly abusive and that she doesn't want to destroy me. 



Headspin said:


> You and a couple of others may see it differently and may have experienced it differently but from where I sit and view for 40 minutes a few times a week that is the reality of it. If you think I'm wrong fine, but I think that IS the reality of it. I don't think that's a myth and certainly not something I invented 5 minutes ago. I see it in enough threads to feel I know this to be the case.


I spend at least 1.5 hours on TAM a day, sometimes more.  Okay, well, we see it differently. I understand that you strongly believe that's the case, just as I strongly believe what I'm saying. Maybe we're reading different threads...or just think differently.



Headspin said:


> I think anybody, wayward or otherwise, trying to claim that anger and rage has no effect or place in helping a wayward understand the true gravity of their terrible actions is fooling themselves.


You say anybody, but I'm being honest here about what would and would not work on me (as are others here). I'm not fooling myself on that. I've had it happen many times that someone tried to be aggressive or abusive to force some message/way of thinking or feeling onto me, and it didn't reach me at all because the method was completely against what I'm receptive to. It doesn't bring anything home to me, it puts me into survival/crisis mode. I either fully defend and shut everything out, go into rage mode and blast back, or crumple inward and break even more, depending on the person and the situation (and all of those modes are some level of dissociation, so I don't even hear or remember what the other person said a lot of the time). Nowhere in there does anything but THREAT make it through to me. Just saying.



Headspin said:


> I do listen, I have listened and it's my opinion and I'm not insistent upon anything - it's only my opinion you can make of it what you will.


I'm glad to hear that you are reading. Still not sure you're absorbing that things can be different for different people, because you were still saying in this post that people like me must be fooling themselves if they say that being blasted would be unhelpful or not lead to understanding. :scratchhead: 



Headspin said:


> I think a baptism of fire is not the worse thing a wayward can encounter.


On the planet? I guess not, certainly having someone die would be worse, etc. But just know that it isn't effective or helpful for _everyone_, and that it may even be very damaging and destructive to any R (or realization of wrong-doing in the case of the fogged), not to mention sticking around on TAM to learn. If people stick around TAM, at least they're still absorbing information, and I think it can eventually sink into even fogged brains.



Headspin said:


> Yes some people are telling me flat out what that experience was *for them* but I don't believe that to be the norm especially after viewing on here almost every other day for the last year and I'll also add that
> I do not for a moment believe that logicality or reasonableness ever helped wake up a wayward from the fog - ever.


Okay, but leave some room in there for people who have different experiences, even if you can't believe it's the norm. I think what wakes a wayward up is different for each one, but I just don't think abuse or firestorming works for as many as you might think. My stress was on civilized conversations with BSs and fWSs being helpful. That doesn't mean that they can't be emotionally charged and passionate. 

If someone is still in a deep fog coming here, though, I still think reading the stories and sufferings of BSs here will be more instrumental in breaking through that fog than attacks, or a BS putting it to them in a strong, direct (but not abusive) way what they have done and what the effects of that have been on their betrayed. Also, some of the waywards who find their way here are already de-fogged (like me). 

This is certainly an interesting thread. LRgirl starts great threads! :smthumbup:


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I felt so bad for this one girl, she posted about her cheating on her husband and wanted to know how to tell him. She said she was ready to confess all of it....well a few people told her that she is soiled in Gods eyes and she is going to hell...it got worse from there, people were calling her a slvt and saying nasty things about her crotch. . Well she did tell her husband the next morning and posted about it...but then the people kept throwing stones so she disappeared. Sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> I felt so bad for this one girl, she posted about her cheating on her husband and wanted to know how to tell him. She said she was ready to confess all of it....well a few people told her that she is soiled in Gods eyes and she is going to hell...it got worse from there, people were calling her a slvt and saying nasty things about her crotch. . Well she did tell her husband the next morning and posted about it...but then the people kept throwing stones so she disappeared. Sad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sad *and* disgusting. They claim to know Jesus. But they don't. Not really.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I remember telling them that Jesus would not treat her the way they did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Headspin, a question for you.
What about the cases where it's been a while, say many months, the ws has taken all the bashing and they are in obvious R now. Is the bashing still necessary? Because it does still continue, Mrs. M still gets it bad I believe, and others too when they stray from the R thread. 

The bashing NEVER stops, why? 

My two cents as to why....
Because it's really not about helping the ws, it's about punishing them. It's about taking out their own anger on others and a ws is an easy target, so they pick on them. Just like a bully in grade school picks on the weak kid. My guess is they, the angry ones, I will call them, sit and wait for the new posters like a hawk waiting in a tree for the little rabbit to hop by. Then they, the ws, posts, and bam, you're a wh0re, a slvt, you don't deserve to live, you should just kill yourself now, you're a horrible mother, a worthless person and on and on...then they fly back up on their little perch and wait for the next little rabbit to hop by. 

Then a ws posts their feelings...i.e. the little bunny hops out from under the bush and.......they pounce, you don't have feelings, you worthless piece of sh!t, divorce now, leave now, abandon your kids they deserve better, then fly back up to your perch.

And you really think, boy I really helped them, I made a difference today as you pick the meat off your dead carcus.

You have numerous ws's here telling you first hand that it didn't work for them, yet you still say, yup it always works, slander and name calling always works, like you think since you say it it simply makes it true. It's NOT true. You're wrong.

Btw.. This dialogue we are having now is considered reasonable, No name calling, no slander, no abuse...this isn't how a ws is treated, but it's how it should be done. I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me, but we are not saying the other is a worthless person not worthy of the same air we breath. Because believe this or not, a ws is still a person with rights and feelings. I know you don't like to think that but it's true and you can't make it not true.

Even on D-Day I never wanted EI to die, in ALL my pain I still knew she was a great mom, a great daughter and good friend to many. She was still a caring person, she would still help someone who needed help. Her cheating did not erase all the good she had done, or will do. She cheated on me, not you or anyone else, it was me, if I can handle it, if I am willing to r then perhaps you and others should ease up and think before you swoop down off your perch to make your kill for the day.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Thank you B1 for what you just said. I feel like you got what I was trying to say, thanks for sticking up for me,the the worthless, selfish wh0re who has no care for anyone. The liar, the cheat, the most immoral person on. Earth. Ok I got carried away, that is what I've been called tho, because I did make a horrible choice and wish I could go back in time and un do it but unfortunately I have this damn label.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

CantSitStill said:


> but unfortunately I have this damn label.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not with everyone CSS.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Perfectly said, B1. Headspin - maybe we are debating opposite types of posts? I agree with you about the hard but constructive posts. And it seems like you agree that badgering belittling posts are uncalled for. I believe it is those types of posts this thread was originally addressing. Maybe I'm wrong though.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Actually I have got a lot on with the kids today so am short timeswise. I will be back to answer questions but if I could just leave you with this one as well that I'd be interested in.

Are any of you waywards in this thread serial in your 
infidelity/ies ? serial former adulterers ? or all having committed only the single 'indescretion' ?


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

B1 said:


> Headspin, a question for you.
> What about the cases where it's been a while, say many months, the ws has taken all the bashing and they are in obvious R now. Is the bashing still necessary? Because it does still continue, Mrs. M still gets it bad I believe, and others too when they stray from the R thread.
> 
> The bashing NEVER stops, why?
> ...


B1, I'm a BS but nowhere near the bashers you speak of. I'm won't defend some of the mean-spirited, over the top vitriol that some BS's post. However, as a BS yourself, you have to at least understand the anger & hopelessness that some BSs feel. You were fortunate that your WS felt remorse, repented, seeked your forgiveness, & received it. 

It's my belief that some BSs had WSs that didn't see the errors of their ways. The selfishness of the unrepentant WS is horrible. The pain they inflict on the souls of their BSs is torture & this may be why some poster lash out when they see others going through similar pain. In many ways these BSs are still suffering, hence their continued strong emotional reactions. 

I will take exception to one thing you said about EI. You stated she was a good mother. I respect your opinion but I feel differently. When a mother cheats, she not only cheats on her husband, she cheats on her children. Think about it. In your sitch, you are working through her betrayal, great. 

But for many, cheating leads to divorce, children get part-time parents and often have nowhere near as full of a life as they would have otherwise. In my opinion, cheaters are not good mothers/ fathers. They've put their selfish needs in front of the needs of their children. 

Hopefully I've made my point without bashing you or EI. God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

ExisaWAW said:


> The selfishness of the unrepentant WS is horrible. The pain they inflict on the souls of their BSs is torture & this may be why some poster lash out when they see others going through similar pain. In many ways these BSs are still suffering, hence their continued strong emotional reactions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And there is the difference. Your first sentence mentions the unrepentant.

Have at 'em!

However, when the blanket approach to ALL occurs that is when the travesty cycle continues. There are many waywards that come here a while after Dday, have begun their work where it counts, and still get bashed cuz they're new.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

What I find interesting is that some of those that relentlessly punish the remorseful WS here are also sometimes the only ones that can get through to hurting fog bound BS's. The difficult part there is if the BS decides to try to reconciled then these 2x4 wielding posters turn on these BS's and pound them down until sometimes they leave or delete their threads. It's a fine line to be sure.


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

ExisaWAW said:


> B1, I'm a BS but nowhere near the bashers you speak of. I'm won't defend some of the mean-spirited, over the top vitriol that some BS's post. However, as a BS yourself, you have to at least understand the anger & hopelessness that some BSs feel. You were fortunate that your WS felt remorse, repented, seeked your forgiveness, & received it.
> 
> It's my belief that some BSs had WSs that didn't see the errors of their ways. The selfishness of the unrepentant WS is horrible. The pain they inflict on the souls of their BSs is torture & this may be why some poster lash out when they see others going through similar pain. In many ways these BSs are still suffering, hence their continued strong emotional reactions.
> 
> ...


Point taken, but I disagree on the mother part. 

I was a far worse father than she was a bad mother. In my depression I neglected my kids horribly, just like I neglected EI, I was not a great parent for a few years. Now, I wasn't abusive, mean or nasty. I loved my kids dearly but I just wasn't present, I wasn't hands on. EI was, she has always been.
Even in her A, she was always there for the kids. Sure she was selfish, made a horrible crushing choice but it simply doesn't erase her motherhood. I was there, I saw the whole thing.

During her A we had some issues with our 2 middle kids and she was always there for them with them, handling far more than I was. I was more like a zombie just going with the flow.
Believe me, I have plaid it back over and over, I have email records of some of our days, she was there for them. Also, she was begging me to be there more. She so wanted and needed me to step up and be a hands on father. 

For us D was already on the table, the kids were told too. I understand where you were coming from here, but she was already done with me before the A started.

She is a good mother, what she did doesn't erase that. Seriously, how could it. And yes the kids all know about the A and they are as loving and as forgiving as ever. 

On Mothers day I didn't say a word to any of them about getting their mother something.

They all came forth with gifts, flowers and presents it was the best mothers day ever for her. It screamed out loud.."Mom, we love you and it's ok, we forgive you" two of them, the 18 year old and the 20 year old couldn't wait until Sunday and gave her presents right after midnight.

I know the hurt, the anger the gut wrenching pain VERY WELL...I have had a bad week myself, cried numerous times, but that doesn't take away the good mom EI is, it just doesn't.

So I respectfully disagree with the whole, ALL WS are bad parents. Like everything else, you just cannot say Always or in ALL circumstances. Everyone is different, every situations is different. 

And no you didn't bash, you spoke what you believed was true, without name calling, bashing and assaulting. Although, many WS will take your stance as a hard blow, it was not an immature name calling assault.


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Actually I have got a lot on with the kids today so am short timeswise. I will be back to answer questions but if I could just leave you with this one as well that I'd be interested in.
> 
> Are any of you waywards in this thread serial in your
> infidelity/ies ? serial former adulterers ? or all having committed only the single 'indescretion' ?


no problem headpsin, and no rush..


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Just because someone was cheated on does not automatically make them a nice person. 

Their WS must surely take responsibility for their cheating. 

But the BS who has an attitude problem, who is rude, snide and a belittling bully?

Guess what? THEY have to take responsibility for their issues, too!

It's like a shopkeeper who always cheats his customers. 

If, one day his shop is robbed, we can feel sympathy for him being robbed. But just because he was robbed does not excuse the fact that he defrauded his customers. 

The bad thing that happened to him does not negate the bad things he does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I just want to take adventage of this thread to apologize those waywards I made a disservice. I fully agree with the spirit of what has been said here but I must admit I failed sometimes to stick with it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Acabado said:


> I just want to take adventage of this thread to apologize those waywards I made a disservice. I fully agree with the spirit of what has been said here but I must admit I failed sometimes to stick with it.


You always come over as the voice of reason, wisdom and compassion.

Wish I had always been as cool as you on threads, here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

B1 said:


> Headspin, a question for you.
> What about the cases where it's been a while, say many months, the ws has taken all the bashing and they are in obvious R now. Is the bashing still necessary? Because it does still continue, Mrs. M still gets it bad I believe, and others too when they stray from the R thread.
> 
> The bashing NEVER stops, why?
> ...


:iagree:

And don't let on that you forgive your fws or  still love them! 

Then the dude harpies really swoop down for the kill!

"Yeah" they say to themselves. "That really taught that BS a lesson!" :wtf:


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

People jump way to quick to condem others on here.A twenty year marriage can't be condensed down to twenty pages.
Understanding what the BS wants too do also sometimes is not taken into consideration.
CSS was accused of lying quite a bit,I knew she was'nt but that did that did'nt stop others from telling me I did'nt know what I was doing.
I came here looking for support and advice and the majority of it was sound.
Yes I was told to be firm with CSS,such as kicking her out,taking the cash out of the bank and other advice.
That was'nt being mean but to help her back to reality.
No one is going to listen when all the slings and arrows are thrown at them by hurt people who have an axe to grind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Whatwhat? Mattmatt
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

calvin said:


> People jump way to quick to condem others on here.A twenty year marriage can't be condensed down to twenty pages.
> Understanding what the BS wants too do also sometimes is not taken into consideration.
> CSS was accused of lying quite a bit,I knew she was'nt but that did that did'nt stop others from telling me I did'nt know what I was doing.
> I came here looking for support and advice and the majority of it was sound.
> ...


But I DO have problems when people offer advice that is illegal and would be counter-productive as a result.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> But I DO have problems when people offer advice that is illegal and would be counter-productive as a result.


True M&M
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Are any of you waywards in this thread serial in your
> infidelity/ies ? serial former adulterers ? or all having committed only the single 'indescretion' ?


You asked... It was pointed out to me last summer, I believe, that mine was serial. I had two EAs. My husband had one as well. Now, I think I am a bit tougher on SOME of the WS that come here. Depends, really. But I make no excuses for mine. I have no desire whatsoever to ever do that again. And, I make sure I am never in a position where it could happen.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Acabado said:


> I just want to take adventage of this thread to apologize those waywards I made a disservice. I fully agree with the spirit of what has been said here but I must admit I failed sometimes to stick with it.


When I have more time I plan to respond to several posts on this thread, which BTW, I think, in itself, has become an excellent example of the value of treating everyone with courtesy rather than "virtually" assaulting those with whom you would disagree.

But, I have to take the time to say to Acabado that you are one of the treasures in the CWI forum on TAM. I have not read a single post of yours where I felt that you owed an apology to anyone. I can't imagine any truly remorseful WS who expects to come here and be coddled or to get a pat on the back. Bear in mind that I said "remorseful" WS. With that having been said, when I "arrived" at TAM, just 3 weeks past D-Day, the only thing that I was remorseful about, at the time, was that I had hurt my husband, not that I had been unfaithful. That's the ugly, unvarnished, non-sugar-coated truth. I was still "in the fog." But, I was honest about that..... and it nearly drove the TAMers mad. There is something that lies between coddling someone for their destructive choices or instead telling them that they are morally bankrupt, personality disordered, and are no better than pedophiles, murderers and rapists who are beyond redemption. That something is called common sense and common courtesy. For those who have suggested that "Waywards" are not worthy of common courtesy, my response to that is that WS's are repeatedly told that it makes no difference how you have been treated by your spouse, nothing justifies an affair. I'm in complete agreement with that statement. It means that only we are responsible for our choices.... good and bad.... and that no one else's bad behavior justifies our bad behavior. That applies here, as well. So, when people are raging and spewing venom at WS's for the WS's poor choices, rather than offering them some direction or 'constructive criticism' then I believe that that is a poor reflection on the one who is spewing the venom rather than the intended target. I've been on the receiving end of those vicious attacks and pms. And, it has been not so subtlety suggested on TAM that Sharia Law is "not such a bad thing." 

Acabado, you call it like you see it. But you stick with the facts. I'll admit that in my very first thread you did make me cry, just once...... But, I'm smiling as I type this because, today, I completely understand the point that you were trying to make, at the time. You didn't call me names, you didn't tell me that I was selfish, you didn't insist that I had no character, that I was worthless or that despite my protests that I couldn't possibly love my children or that my family would be better off without me, and you didn't tell B1 that he should divorce my cheating a$$ and find a younger, hotter, better wife. 

Instead, you pointed out specific things that I was saying and doing that you knew, as a one-time BS, would prove to be detrimental in my "R" with B1. You gave me some genuine insight into the mind and the broken heart of a BS that I was not getting from all of those angry people who wanted to "virtually beat me into submission." I couldn't "hear" a word they were saying because I was too emotionally bloodied from defending myself from their blows..... many of which bore no resemblance to the truth. 

You did not repeatedly insist that my feelings did not count or that B1 had no responsibilities or obligations with regard to our "R." You always encouraged every individual, BS or WS, to look in the mirror and own their $hit. You talk about personal accountability for everyone. You were honest about the depth of the destruction that my choices had made and warned me that when I came out of the fog, without all of my rationalizations to protect me, that no one could save me from myself and that I would have to walk that walk alone....... I HEARD EVERY SINGLE WORD YOU WERE SAYING..... Because you were not saying it to hurt me, you were genuinely trying to help me. You acknowledged that I, too, had suffered in my marriage, and that forgiveness and rebuilding was something that B1 and I both needed to work on. You REALLY, REALLY, made me stop and think. You encouraged me, inspired me and gave me hope. You did the same for B1 over and over, again. You were kind enough to answer my pm's when I questioned if you really believed that a BH could heal and feel happy again after his WW's betrayal. 

You encouraged B1 to be patient with me in the beginning, and you encouraged me to be completely transparent and honest, while still being compassionate. You gave me direction that I could work with, you inspired me by your own example, and you continue to give us both hope on the more challenging days.

My friends....... THAT is how it's done...... Thank you so very much, Acabaco! 


Uncontained rage and spewing canned venom accomplishes nothing. It doesn't make the WS's listen to you. To put it bluntly, and not politically correct, it made me wonder if this was the way that some of you had treated your spouses before they became WS's........

Not every WS is the devil and not every BS was a saint.........

At the end of the day there is only one person whose actions we are responsible for.......... Ourselves!


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

B1 said:


> So I respectfully disagree with the whole, ALL WS are bad parents. Like everything else, you just cannot say Always or in ALL circumstances. Everyone is different, every situations is different.


I never said always or in all circumstances, but I stand by my assertion that WSs take a huge risk when it comes to their children's well-being (and taking that risk, IMO makes them poor parents, even if their children are lucky enough to escape unscathed).

That's cool, we can agree to disagree. 

Not to belabor the point I was trying to make, but here goes:

You & your family were lucky regarding how you reacted to her betrayal. You hung in there. In a way, it was a wake-up call for you & it looks like something good will come out of something bad.

However, when someone cheats, they leave it up to fate how their spouse will react & how their children's lives will turn out. You just have to read through some of the threads/posts in this forum to realize that some BSs freak out when the person they put their complete trust into betrays them. And, the trauma that children go through immediately after sometimes years later is well documented.

Here's a few:

- Teenagers in single-parent families and in blended families are three times more likely to need psychological help within a given year. (Peter Hill “Recent Advances in Selected Aspects of Adolescent Development” Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry 1993)

-Compared to children from homes disrupted by death, children from divorced homes have more psychological problems. (Robert E. Emery, Marriage, Divorce and Children’s Adjustment” Sage Publications, 1988)

- Following divorce, children are fifty percent more likely to develop health problems than two parent families. (Angel, Worobey, “Single Motherhood and Children’s Health”)

- Children who come from broken homes are almost twice as likely to attempt suicide than those who do not come from broken homes. (Velez-Cohen, “Suicidal Behavior and Ideation in a Community Sample of Children” Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry 1988)

- A Child in a female-headed home is 10 times more likely to be beaten or murdered. (The Legal Beagle, July 1984, from “The Garbage Generation”)

These are just the tip of the iceberg... Betrayal often leads to D, D has horrible effects on children. WSs risk too much, & IMO, are therefore not good parents.

IMO, the likelihood of infidelity ending up as a net positive on a family is a long-shot at best.

When a WS makes a decision to betray their marriage vows & cheat they do so not knowing how their BS will react or the potential consequences for their children.

In my sitch, my girls were 7 & 11, not nearly as grown as yours. Since I was coincidentally out of work from my high-paying job when her cheating was discovered, this economy has me looking out-of-state to find a similar job. Only seeing my girls 20% of the time (standard visitation) is a huge negative to me & the girls. If I leave the state, I'd be lucky to see them a few times a year. This is but one example. 

My point is that you never know how a betrayal MAY end up affecting children. Another example of what might happen to the children is what if the custodial parent remarries or dates a loser and they end up being exposed to an unhealthy home environment. There are endless examples of how badly things can end for children. Not to mention what they may miss out on. The stability of their former nuclear family, the awesome family vacations that may never happen again, the holidays that only bring back sad memories of "the old days", etc., etc.

IMO, WSs who don't think through this, are not being good parents. 

Sometimes things work out fine (like your sitch) & sometimes things work out horribly. Far to great a risk, from my perspective.

All the best.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Can posters please not condemn WS for the sake of it!*

Of course you can argue that betrayers are bad parents. I may have done so too earlier on, if I recall it correctly, so I understand where you're coming from.

But thinking about it, there's not many good parents out there if we measure it by this standard, is there? If you must wear that label each time you make a decision that possibly could end up negatively for your kids, and there is no room for errors or mistakes, you'll be busy.

I know I'm guilty. Working too much from time too time, sometimes I can be distant, sometimes I correct them when they should experience things them selves, very rarely, but sometimes, I get angry, I even decided to stay with my wife to try and work through her infidelity, all though my kids may have gotten them selves a more challenged dad than they could have had. 

And yet, despite all these faults of mine, I believe I'm a good and loving father, and that my kids ultimately are going to be just fine.

Kids also learn from seeing their parents make mistakes and how they try to learn from them and become a better person.

I know I'm happy that there are waywards here that stick it out so I get the chance go learn something useful about that line of thinking.

Just my 2 cents.


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

cpacan said:


> Of course you can argue that betrayers are bad parents. I may have done so too earlier on, if I recall it correctly, so I understand where you're coming from.
> 
> But thinking about it, there's not many good parents out there if we measure it by this standard, is there? If you must wear that label each time you make a decision that possibly could end up negatively for your kids, and there is no room for errors or mistakes, you'll be busy.
> 
> ...


 Wow, you missed my point entirely! Talk about apples & oranges!

The standard you are using is absurd. It's kinda like saying jaywalking is the same as mass murder. Hey, they're both against the law, right? Um, perhaps technically so but hopefully everyone will agree there's a big difference. 

Adultery is a big deal folks. If you believe in God & know anything about the Bible, there's only one reason God allows divorce...adultery. 

If your spouse is a murder, you stay married. A rapist, sorry, it's death do you part. Etc., etc. ...

I'm sure my post will raise some eyebrows, but God said it, I believe it. You can choose to forgive/ reconcile with a WS, but adultery is the biggest deal in marriage. We can choose to not believe this if we want but I choose to believe God's word. 

Oh, & the "my kids will turn out just fine" is wishful thinking fog-speak. They MIGHT of course, but I would have rather not taken the chance. 

For the record, I was talking about adultery, period. Not EVERY POOR DECISION that may end up negatively impacting your children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LoriC (Feb 18, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> You asked... It was pointed out to me last summer, I believe, that mine was serial. I had two EAs. My husband had one as well. Now, I think I am a bit tougher on SOME of the WS that come here. Depends, really. But I make no excuses for mine. I have no desire whatsoever to ever do that again. And, I make sure I am never in a position where it could happen.



Well said Maricha. I also has an EA, and make sure I too am never in the position for this to happen again. 

I became a person I have always despised as a result of my EA. And in the process broke the heart of the man who has never stopped loving me before it and after it. My R has been one of the greatest success stories, but there isn't a day that goes by that I don't think about what I did. I'm just now slowly getting over the guilt with the help of my MC. 

I will say that I never did get or feel bashed by anyone on TAM. in fact it has been very helpful to me and my marriage to be here.


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## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

ExisaWAW said:


> If your spouse is a murder, you stay married. *A rapist, sorry, it's death do you part*. Etc., etc. ...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Umm .... are you sure that doesn't also count as adultery?


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

Rags said:


> Umm .... are you sure that doesn't also count as adultery?


Oops. Great point. I got carried away trying to make my point, lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I agree with all you said about what the Bible says about adultery..I should have thought about all of that a long time ago. What the heck was I thinking? I am appalled with my past behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

ExisaWAW said:


> Wow, you missed my point entirely! Talk about apples & oranges!
> 
> The standard you are using is absurd. It's kinda like saying jaywalking is the same as mass murder. Hey, they're both against the law, right? Um, perhaps technically so but hopefully everyone will agree there's a big difference.
> 
> ...


I may have missed your point then, I didn't realize you were pushing a religious POV, maybe because I'm not religious myself. I intended with my post to point out, that IMO infidelity is not a discriminating factor when determining whether you're a good parent or not. You think differently, and that's OK with me.

I didn't in any way try to excuse, justify or minimize infidelity, but I do believe we all have our flaws - a world of imperfection, or perfection if you like, and that we can all learn from each other, adults and children, betrayers and betrayeds.

I'm curious to learn what kind of fog it is, you seem to believe I'm in?


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

I remember the bishop's thread where he was accused of "helping himself to the carnage in BSs's lives here", being repulsive, pathetic, a sociopath etc, although he had stopped his serial cheating and was going to therapy, on his own accord(meaning he didn't wait to be caught). The poster who said such stuff, was named Empty Inside(aka EI).

It seems we all have different limits in what we see as horrid behaviour and how we respond to it. For me even a one time infidelity is horrid and thus my posts are on that accord.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> Whatwhat? Mattmatt
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I remember I really got slammed in one thread for having forgiven my wife.

And other BS have had that, too.

What's that all about?:scratchhead:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> I agree with all you said about what the Bible says about adultery..I should have thought about all of that a long time ago. What the heck was I thinking? I am appalled with my past behavior.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, that's good. Because what you did was out of character and, as I have said, probably as a result of a mental breakdown of some kind.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> I remember the bishop's thread where he was accused of "helping himself to the carnage in BSs's lives here", being repulsive, pathetic, a sociopath etc, although he had stopped his serial cheating and was going to therapy, on his own accord(meaning he didn't wait to be caught). The poster who said such stuff, was named Empty Inside(aka EI).
> 
> It seems we all have different limits in what we see as horrid behaviour and how we respond to it. For me even a one time infidelity is horrid and thus my posts are on that accord.


Actually, it's considered common courtesy, and good practice, to provide a link to support what you claim someone else has previously said on a board.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Actually, it's considered common courtesy, and good practice, to provide a link to support *what you claim* someone else has previously said on a board.


Lol. It is so hard to find stuff when the guy only has 4 threads.

Here is the thread:

Cheaters are going to cheat..... unless

Here's where she starts:

Cheaters are going to cheat..... unless - Page 6

It's a very interesting thread, as it shows several of the posters here insulting the guy and making threats about what they would have done if they were one of the BSs of his APs. One fWW suggests that he should put saltpeter in his coffee and so on.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> I remember the bishop's thread where he was accused of "helping himself to the carnage in BSs's lives here", being repulsive, pathetic, a sociopath etc, although he had stopped his serial cheating and was going to therapy, on his own accord(meaning he didn't wait to be caught). The poster who said such stuff, was named Empty Inside(aka EI).
> 
> It seems we all have different limits in what we see as horrid behaviour and how we respond to it. For me even a one time infidelity is horrid and thus my posts are on that accord.


I don't see much of a comparisson between EI and the Bishop.
The Bishop was a preditor on the hunt,wrecked many familes on purpose.
Its great he is changing and comes to Tams to help others and share his insight on what he did.
I really do applaude him for that.
EI is not the same as him.
Never will be.
They both have courage in coming here and sharing their stories to help others.
That's good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

My point is, it is extremely weird to be the person doing the condemning and at the same time say hurtful things were said to them.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> I remember I really got slammed in one thread for having forgiven my wife.
> 
> And other BS have had that, too.
> 
> What's that all about?:scratchhead:


Matt you forgiving your wife, is you coming to a certain place within your R...it has nothing to do with anyone else, and you posting that you have forgiven your wife is such a positive statement...I guess the people who slammed you are no where close to it, and possibly never will be....and more likely are no longer with their WS.

There are definitely BS here who must have had it harder than others...with multiple cheating's and no remorse shown or the WS walks... so no closure for the BS, even more pain on top of the pain of adultery!

These are some of the BS who mud flick! I can understand their bitterness...but can not understand why they are so nasty to those trying to R. :scratchhead:


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

cpacan said:


> I may have missed your point then, I didn't realize you were pushing a religious POV, maybe because I'm not religious myself. I intended with my post to point out, that IMO infidelity is not a discriminating factor when determining whether you're a good parent or not. You think differently, and that's OK with me.
> 
> I didn't in any way try to excuse, justify or minimize infidelity, but I do believe we all have our flaws - a world of imperfection, or perfection if you like, and that we can all learn from each other, adults and children, betrayers and betrayeds.
> 
> I'm curious to learn what kind of fog it is, you seem to believe I'm in?


By the way, I'm not trying to judge anyone who does not share my beliefs or force or POV on anyone. I completely respect your right to have your own views.

At a non-religious level, I believe that if one is aware of how horribly wrong their decisions can affect their children, they ought to consider the possible outcome before proceeding. In the examples you gave about working too much or being distant those are minor "flaws" as you put it. We all have them, right?

Morally, everyday we have the angel on one shoulder & the devil on the other. Every decision we make can have consequences that we never thought of. If we thought through every one, we'd go nuts. I just think adultery is at a whole different level morally (religious beliefs aside).

My point, stated another way, is about when parents don't think through how their poor moral choices might reasonably effect their children, then they are not being very good parents, IMO. 

For example, I believe that once you decide to have children, it's time to put the crack pipe down. Time to stop getting high everyday and/ or stop hanging out at the bars every night, etc. When you make a decision to be a parent, in my view you should be more responsible, because your decisions could ultimately have an impact on your kids welfare, that's all.

As for the fog, I would think that those who convince themselves that their poor decisions will not have any impact of their kids are fooling themselves. Statistically speaking, they won't be fine. One needs to only look at the overwhelming statistics on the issues that divorced kids will face. It's not guaranteed that your kids will suffer, but convincing yourself that "they will be fine" is self-protecting your ego. When people talk about the BS or even the WS fog, they are talking about a time where they are not thinking straight.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> My point is, it is extremely weird to be the person doing the condemning and at the same time say hurtful things were said to them.


I get what you're saying.
Still,did the Bishop self expose? I don't belive he did.
EI did and she did not go out and seek different men like the Bishop did.
No matter what,they both did a grave injustice too others.
The Bishop did admit that he loved his wife and had few problems with her.
Wrong is wrong,too me there are different levels of being wrong.
Sometimes you get the knife in the back,sometimes it gets twisted for good measure.
I do kinda see what you're saying but still,its the same in a way but awfully different too me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> Matt you forgiving your wife, is you coming to a certain place within your R...it has nothing to do with anyone else, and you posting that you have forgiven your wife is such a positive statement...I guess the people who slammed you are no where close to it, and possibly never will be....and more likely are no longer with their WS.
> 
> There are definitely BS here who must have had it harder than others...with multiple cheating's and no remorse shown or the WS walks... so no closure for the BS, even more pain on top of the pain of adultery!
> 
> These are some of the BS who mud flick! I can understand their bitterness...but can not understand why they are so nasty to those trying to R. :scratchhead:


Thank you. 

Sadly, there are some -a tiny minority, thankfully- people on TAM who think that the only good WS is a divorced WS.

They treat a spouse not as a person but as an adornment.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Sadly, there are some -a tiny minority, thankfully- people on TAM who think that the only good WS is a divorced WS.
> 
> They treat a spouse not as a person but as an adornment.


 Most people deserve a shot at redemption and a chance too prove they have learned someting.
A chance to show they can make a difference and and repair the damage they did.
Grant it,a minority won't change and will just pretend to better themselves for their own gain.
Those who are not serious about fixing what they did can only fake it for so long.
Its the ones who are true who still try for at least a year.
Actions count.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

As for it affecting the children, sadly the WS doesn't even realize that it's affecting the kids until later. My children know about my EA and hated me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Can posters please not condemn WS for the sake of it!*

Of course it affects the children, but it doesn't make you unqualified as a parent, CSS.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> As for it affecting the children, sadly the WS doesn't even realize that it's affecting the kids until later. My children know about my EA and hated me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or did they just hate what you did, rather than hated you?


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Or did they just hate what you did, rather than hated you?


You're right there M&M.
They don't hate CSS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

calvin said:


> I get what you're saying.
> Still,did the Bishop self expose? I don't belive he did.
> EI did and she did not go out and seek different men like the Bishop did.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I might be mistaken but EI was caught, so was CM, Mrs_mathias and a whole bunch of others. The only fWW that I know of, who confessed was tears. Which brings me to my original point. How many fWS can honestly say that they would have stopped cheating on their own, without the threat of discovery and exposure and without having to face the consequences and the fallout?


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

LRgirl said:


> These are some of the BS who mud flick! I can understand their bitterness...but can not understand why they are so nasty to those trying to R. :scratchhead:


Not to be a twidle-taddler, but MattMatt has professed in several threads(and no I can't go around looking for them) that his wife's affair seemed planned(I am paraphrasing, obviously not exact words), that she seemed unremorseful, that she said several rude and insulting stuff. I don't know the slamming he has gotten, I don't know his home situation apart from his posts, I don't how much of it is trying to make lemonade out of lemons.

As for the slamming BSs have gotten here, there are a lot of BSs that get a second DDay. Just saying.

Also, I don't know what a twidle-taddler is.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> I might be mistaken but EI was caught, so was CM, Mrs_mathias and a whole bunch of others. The only fWW that I know of, who confessed was tears. Which brings me to my original point. How many fWS can honestly say that they would have stopped cheating on their own, without the threat of discovery and exposure and without having to face the consequences and the fallout?


*raising hand* 

I stopped on my own and gave my husband om's information on top of it. Not from fear of exposure but because I owed it to him.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> *raising hand*
> 
> I stopped on my own and gave my husband om's information on top of it. Not from fear of exposure but because I owed it to him.


Apologies for not adding your name to the list.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can posters please not condemn WS for the sake of it!*



BjornFree said:


> I might be mistaken but EI was caught, so was CM, Mrs_mathias and a whole bunch of others. The only fWW that I know of, who confessed was tears. Which brings me to my original point. How many fWS can honestly say that they would have stopped cheating on their own, without the threat of discovery and exposure and without having to face the consequences and the fallout?


Morrigan ended her affair and confessed it to Beowulf. Then she exposed it to the family. Sadly they aren't here anymore.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> I might be mistaken but EI was caught, so was CM, Mrs_mathias and a whole bunch of others. The only fWW that I know of, who confessed was tears. Which brings me to my original point. How many fWS can honestly say that they would have stopped cheating on their own, without the threat of discovery and exposure and without having to face the consequences and the fallout?


My first one, he discovered. My second one, I confessed myself, and exposed to family and friends, without any prompting from him. I chose to expose it all to my family because I wanted to be accountable to them. I knew that if my family knew of my behavior, they would absolutely slap me to wake me up, should I screw up again. It also gave me more incentive to NOT go down that road. More people knowing = more people watching = less likely chance of happening again.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

So....Shadow Nirvana...what was your _other_ TAM name. That thread is from last year and don't give us the bullsnot that you researched and read....

Did you get banned or something?


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> So....Shadow Nirvana...what was your _other_ TAM name. That thread is from last year and don't give us the bullsnot that you researched and read....
> 
> Did you get banned or something?


You'll never get it out of me cop, I'm no rat!

Hahaha, nice try, though. But sorry detective, wrong hunch. I'm just resourceful that way.


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

ExisaWAW said:


> Wow, you missed my point entirely! Talk about apples & oranges!
> 
> The standard you are using is absurd. It's kinda like saying jaywalking is the same as mass murder. Hey, they're both against the law, right? Um, perhaps technically so but hopefully everyone will agree there's a big difference.
> 
> ...


Yes, adultery is the only reason God allowes for a divorce. However, we also see what Jesus did for an adulterous woman in John 8. He put a stop to those that were judging her and preparing to stone her, saying as you know. Let he is is without sin cast the first stone. Then Jesus forgave the woman.

On Dday I used the, God says I can divorce you speech many times. But, knowing my bible, I was forced to also know what Jesus did in this very situation. Now it took me far longer to get there but I did get there.

My mom and dad divorced when i was 13, they both had committed adultery by then, in saying that, The most destructive thing they did, or my mom did, was drinking. Alcohol did far more damage to me and my sisters then the cheating did. The bad parenting came from the alcohol. Bad parenting can come in many forms.

Interestingly enough, now 30 some years later, they are the most devoted, loving, caring parents and grandparents ever. Forgiving them is not a problem. 

I will give you this, In an A, that is not the ws finest parenting moment. I know in our case EI was selfish, not thinking, and not being the best parent. The risk she was taking was foolish. Yet, it doesn't erase what she did prior or what she is doing now. Or even the good parenting while in the A. Obviously her A was NOT her shining moment, no one knows this more than her. During her A she didn't miss a thing with the kids. She handled them as usual.

Telling our kids what she did killed her, shamed her and yes, it hurt them. Some handled it better than others, but they did handle it and eventually forgave her. They are fine now and me, we'll I am definitely getting there, it's still hard sometimes but I am healing.
We are healing.

The reference to rapist, murderr etc.. Well, that's just silly, and as Forest Gump would say, "That's all I'm gonna say about that."

Now back to our vacation...heading to the aquarium.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

bfree said:


> Morrigan ended her affair and confessed it to Beowulf. Then she exposed it to the family. Sadly they aren't here anymore.


Again I might have missed a few names but I'd say 8 out of every 10 WS on this forum were caught.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

I appreciate the tone of this thread. There is a lot of bias and judgement when it comes to advice given to a WS or BS. As a WS, it seems I have little right to criticize anything about my husband. Even if I am doing my best to make my marriage work, in some poster's mind, it will always be my fault and I should be condemned for the rest of my life. 
I'm all for tough love and brutally honesty but not all posters know the difference between that and being rude or insensitive. It used to frustrate me to no end when I would see the judgement displayed for someone they really don't know, but now I realize I can just ignore them. I can give my opinion and if it gets shot down, so be it. You can't save everyone...


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

A truly remorseful WS will beat him/her self up more than anyone on this board can.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

doubletrouble said:


> A truly remorseful WS will beat him/her self up more than anyone on this board can.


That is true, however, every remorseful WS has to still work through the process of self-forgiveness if they want to be able to live a healthier life in the future. Cruel bashing after months/years of work on the part of the WS is a setback to that process. Yes, we should just ignore it, yes we understand where it's coming from and why. But it feeds the little voice inside of us that really believes we are worthless and vile no matter what positive characteristics anyone else tries to get us to see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

yeah wallowing in how awful you are won't help in atoning at all


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

B1 said:


> The reference to rapist, murderr etc.. Well, that's just silly, and as Forest Gump would say, "That's all I'm gonna say about that."


Yeah, I wish I could have put that another way. My point is that of all the bad things that a spouse can do during a marriage, none of them compare to adultery.

As far as forgiveness, God requires we forgive those as He forgives us. Even adultery. We should forgive it. That's been difficult for me but I'll know I am truly over it when I can say I forgive my ex for what she did to me & our girls.

It's a work in-progress.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

ExisaWAW said:


> Yeah, I wish I could have put that another way. My point is that of all the bad things that a spouse can do during a marriage, none of them compare to adultery.


Are you also excluding physical abuse?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> Are you also excluding physical abuse?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ExisaWAW is speaking from a specific point of view: biblical grounds for divorce.


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> ExisaWAW is speaking from a specific point of view: biblical grounds for divorce.


Exactly. On an entirely non-religious level, I would definitely think that physical abuse would be a reason to divorce. Maybe that doesn't make me a very good Christian, but I wouldn't want my Daughter/ Son to stay in a physically abusive marriage.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> ExisaWAW is speaking from a specific point of view: biblical grounds for divorce.


Oh, got it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

ExisaWAW said:


> Exactly. On an entirely non-religious level, I would definitely think that physical abuse would be a reason to divorce. Maybe that doesn't make me a very good Christian, but I wouldn't want my Daughter/ Son to stay in a physically abusive marriage.


:iagree::iagree:
Of course, I think my husband would be VERY tempted to kill the SOB if he ever hurt her.... and mama bear would be right there with him!


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> That is true, however, every remorseful WS has to still work through the process of self-forgiveness if they want to be able to live a healthier life in the future. Cruel bashing after months/years of work on the part of the WS is a setback to that process. Yes, we should just ignore it, yes we understand where it's coming from and why. But it feeds the little voice inside of us that really believes we are worthless and vile no matter what positive characteristics anyone else tries to get us to see.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I keep telling my WS that she needs to stop beating herself up, and she needs to start forgiving herself and being proud of how she's conducting her life right now at this moment.. and to remember how much she's accomplished in her life, not to sell her accomplishments short. An A doesn't automatically erase every good thing you've ever done in your life. It's also tough if you believe that low self esteem and poor self image played a role in the poor decision making and self deprecating behavior to begin with. This is a person that was already feeling pretty low.. now they feel lower, that's dangerous.


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)

candy12 said:


> As a WS who has posted her story here and received a few judgmental attacks (along with a slew of direct, but very helpful responses, so thank you), I can tell you that one of most useful bits of information I have learned here is how an affair is an addiction. Alcoholics, drug users etc.. also lie, steal and betray loved ones to feed their addictions, and recovery for them doesn't happen as a result of character assassination. To help an addict, you need to make them understand the damage they are causing to both themselves and loved ones, and direct them to professional help.


Uh, no. You received "judgemental attacks" because you were enjoying playing with the emotions of two people. 

Tell the truth next time.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Sad *and* disgusting. They claim to know Jesus. But they don't. Not really.


And you do?


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> It's because they mistake everyone else's wayward wife for their wayward wife.
> 
> A lot of the barbed, rude "ban me if you dare!" style of remarks are, I think, what some posters wish they had the b*lls to say to their own WS when it would have perhaps made a difference.
> 
> But instead they take their bitterness out on some other wayward.


Or perhaps it's because some people have great disdain for those who hurt other people, and feel obliged to call them out on it.

BTW - I said everything I say on this forum to WS's to my stbxww, and then some.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> And you do?


If he lives his life according to what He says, and treats others as He would have him treat them, then yes, he does. But it's those who damn people to hell, claiming they have no chance of repentance, no matter what they do, who do know _know_ Him.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

JCD said:


> So, I will continue to give my opinion. I will call people on their bad behavior.


So will I - cheating being one of those bad behaviours.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

TCSRedhead said:


> Headspin - it's the mindless abuse that's being protested.


What you call mindless abuse, others may call righteous indignation. Why do WS's feel they are above being called out on their deplorable behaviour?

Where are the WS's big boy/big girl pants?

WS's cause many people indescribable pain and damage to families, to CHILDREN.

Why do they deserve to be handled with kid gloves? Why do they deserve kindness and mercy? They didn't show any of that to their BS's or their children...

Where does this sense of entitlement come from? Oh right - the same place that their right to have an affair came from.

Banned now? Probably. I'll manage.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> So will I - cheating being one of those bad behaviours.


Who is saying it isn't bad behavior? :scratchhead:

No one...except those who are not remorseful...


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

LRgirl said:


> I know I haven't been here too long, so please accept this as a general and genuine observation.
> 
> I find it really offensive and unhelpful when posters condemn WS for sharing their views.
> 
> ...


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

The point of this thread, as Dig pointed out, was to tell people not to jump on a WS JUST because he or she is a WS. Red is one WS whose marriage was turned around because she owned her sh!t. Same with me. But it wasn't JUST to the BS the OP was talking to. She was also talking to the WS who jump on new WS. I have been guilty of this at times. I think LoriC called me out on that once. I don't handle anyone with kid gloves. But I also don't (or try not to) make personal attacks on them. I don't attack them SOLELY because they are WS... nor do I jump on a BS just because he or she is a BS. 

I'm not telling anyone to just wrap their arms around a WS and say "It's ok, everyone does it... blah blah blah"... Not at all. All I'm saying is don't immediately jump to "You're a worthless piece of shyt and your spouse is an idiot for reconciling with you."...to all new WS, no matter whether they are remorseful or not.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

:iagree:

Furthermore, if you can't be civil and/or helpful just stop before you hit the reply button.


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## LoriC (Feb 18, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> The point of this thread, as Dig pointed out, was to tell people not to jump on a WS JUST because he or she is a WS. Red is one WS whose marriage was turned around because she owned her sh!t. Same with me. But it wasn't JUST to the BS the OP was talking to. She was also talking to the WS who jump on new WS. I have been guilty of this at times. I think LoriC called me out on that once. I don't handle anyone with kid gloves. But I also don't (or try not to) make personal attacks on them. I don't attack them SOLELY because they are WS... nor do I jump on a BS just because he or she is a BS.
> 
> I'm not telling anyone to just wrap their arms around a WS and say "It's ok, everyone does it... blah blah blah"... Not at all. All I'm saying is don't immediately jump to "You're a worthless piece of shyt and your spouse is an idiot for reconciling with you."...to all new WS, no matter whether they are remorseful or not.


This is true and today I have tons of respect for Maricha. We have both owned our sh!t here.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

Maricha, you posted to me when I was new and you and a few others were voices of reason for me. Honestly. You, Sandc, Wazza, bfree and others were pretty direct and blunt. But I never felt like I was being insulted and called names by you guys.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> Maricha, you posted to me when I was new and you and a few others were voices of reason for me. Honestly. You, Sandc, Wazza, bfree and others were pretty direct and blunt. But I never felt like I was being insulted and called names by you guys.


Blunt is okay, sometimes even necessary. Rude is never acceptable under any circumstances. I think when you've been around TAM for a while you can tell the difference between the ones that are really trying to help and the "hang 'em high" crowd.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Don't like mean people because they are mean. ( pouty face). I was taught if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. The problem is..I have been banned a couple times so maybe I need to be nicer myself??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

B1 said:


> Headspin, a question for you.
> What about the cases where it's been a while, say many months, the ws has taken all the bashing and they are in obvious R now. Is the bashing still necessary? Because it does still continue, Mrs. M still gets it bad I believe, and others too when they stray from the R thread.
> 
> The bashing NEVER stops, why?


Well that's simple, because when you've been stabbed in the back, often repeatedly, you'll end up not forgetting it and who's doing it
When your children have been getting the same stabbing, you'll zone in completely to where that's coming from and you'll fight back
When the OM OW families children extended familiy have also been repeatedy stabbed in the back that focuses your mind in maybe not the healthiest of responses

See that the main problem that - we are all different. You B1 may well be able to put all that pain and suffering aside because you have an overwhelming desire to want to keep your marriage to a person who was once that shining beacon you were going to spend all your days with. Many other people are not locked into that as strong they can't get past the annihilation so easily 

And right here I'm going to choose my words carefully because annihilation is exactly what we are talking about. Okay your spouse did not murder or rape you or your children so where down the list is infidelity? It's not at the bottom. It may not be above murder and rape but in terms of emotional destruction it's right up there near them - it has the same capacity to feel like you've lost somebody, like somebody has died that you are undergoing a loss that there is no coming back from.

I still sense in even this thread a fine little line of "yeah okay I did it and it was terrible - but it ain't THAT bad" and THIS is exactly what the wayward can never ever gauge, can never feel and is the reason why I feel almost any amount of criticism is warranted and is helpful to force them to feel that. Again mindless personal abuse is in itself wrong obviously, however it does highlight where from the deep pool in the abyss a betrayed is often wallowing. Sorry when spouses in here say "naa the intensity of the comment, the vitriol and anger, exhibited by betrayed spouses never made me sit up and take notice" 
I don't accept that, just dont believe that - it is part of human nature to only understand something often when it is forcibly thrust right into your face. Again some of you in this thread may respond less to that than others but I think respond you do in various forms. The anger and bitterness no doubt makes you realize the depth of the feeling about this.

Unfortunately because of the nature of it the 'bashing' will probably never stop and even that has to tell you something. 



B1 said:


> My two cents as to why....
> Because it's really not about helping the ws, it's about punishing them. It's about taking out their own anger on others and a ws is an easy target, so they pick on them. Just like a bully in grade school picks on the weak kid. My guess is they, the angry ones, I will call them, sit and wait for the new posters like a hawk waiting in a tree for the little rabbit to hop by. Then they, the ws, posts, and bam, you're a wh0re, a slvt, you don't deserve to live, you should just kill yourself now, you're a horrible mother, a worthless person and on and on...then they fly back up on their little perch and wait for the next little rabbit to hop by.
> 
> Then a ws posts their feelings...i.e. the little bunny hops out from under the bush and.......they pounce, you don't have feelings, you worthless piece of sh!t, divorce now, leave now, abandon your kids they deserve better, then fly back up to your perch.


Yes its animalistic but again yeah there has been huge betrayal colossal pain and suffering huge selfishness and no boundaries 
Again Wtfk do you expect? Sorry to raise my tone but again - really.
You commit colossal life shattering betrayals and so expect the tidal wave of shvt that will come with it as someone said earlier 'grow a pair' 

I know these comments do not sit easily with some of you in this thread because you all want to nice intelligent and reasonable about it all. Unfortunate what you have been doing is NOT nice not reasonable and intelligent. Its the very opposite of that. 



B1 said:


> And you really think, boy I really helped them, I made a difference today as you pick the meat off your dead carcus.


Yes I do think some of it helps them, not all but some of it does. It's just that it is difficult to separate it all into nice chopped up line of acceptance 



B1 said:


> You have numerous ws's here telling you first hand that it didn't work for them, yet you still say, yup it always works, slander and name calling always works, like you think since you say it it simply makes it true. It's NOT true. You're wrong.


 Correct, I think I'm right. This thread is interesting. It has also highlighted for me that a betrayed desperate for reconciliation can be in a 'Reconciliation fog' if you like 



B1 said:


> Btw.. This dialogue we are having now is considered reasonable, No name calling, no slander, no abuse...this isn't how a ws is treated, but it's how it should be done. I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me, but we are not saying the other is a worthless person not worthy of the same air we breath. Because believe this or not, a ws is still a person with rights and feelings. I know you don't like to think that but it's true and you can't make it not true.


Yes correct we are being courteous passionate but ultimately respectful like we should HOWEVER I was not married to you for 15 years and you did not put me and my children my family other families through the mincer that has completely destroyed all our lives with serial endless adulteries and barely any remorse. If I had been married to you and you had done that I'd be showing you a lot less respect and if you came on here for advice I wouldn't be too concerned trying to help you get through an avalanche of criticism and some abuse.

Do you get that point? 



B1 said:


> Even on D-Day I never wanted EI to die, in ALL my pain I still knew she was a great mom, a great daughter and good friend to many. She was still a caring person, she would still help someone who needed help. Her cheating did not erase all the good she had done, or will do. She cheated on me, not you or anyone else, it was me, if I can handle it, if I am willing to r then perhaps you and others should ease up and think before you swoop down off your perch to make your kill for the day.


I dont' agree. After what my stbxw did what she did I revised my opinion of her capabilities completely I realize she was a poor mum, she had put her own selfish needs and desires way ahead of her children and her husband and showed she cared little for the children and wives relations of other married families too . Her cheating DID erase all the good she had done 
Here's the difference between you and me - and that 'fog' I mentioned earlier. I don't want to reconcile. I now see the light 
I do not love her any more there is nothing clouding my judgement about mstbxw any more and I can see her for exactly truly what she is 
In regards to this I think all waywards show this selfishness - all of them bar none. If they were great mums before they pulled this stuff imho they certainly are not any longer after it. Nobody forced them to care less about their children and more about tonight's naughty shag in the car park did they? No they CHOSE to do it


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Headspin said:


> This thread is interesting. It has also highlighted for me that a betrayed desperate for reconciliation can be in a 'Reconciliation fog' if you like


Luckily, it truly is a two way street and is easily seen that a betrayed desperate to divorce can be in a "Divorce fog" if you like.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm getting a bit confused now... I sometimes struggle with my *wish* and *temporary decission* to rebuild my marriage - does that put me in a reconsiliation fog or a divorce fog?? :scratchhead:

I don't like the fact that my wife chose to betray me, to say the least, but I find it very hard to make a connection from this dislike to a need to bash people seeking advice, support and help on an internet forum? I just don't get it - it may have something to do with the fog, though.

B1 among otheres can testify that I sometimes find it hard to come around to a somewhat normal life again since the betrayal, but I really do believe that I manage to treat the people on this forum with respect, both BS and WS. That's who I am. You may be different, I respect that, but are you absolutely certain that you get better bashing other people? I read something that I learned a lot from, I think it was something like "The pain from anger never leaves the angry person" - meaning you can't transfer your pain to other people.


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## dusty4 (May 8, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> The point of this thread, as Dig pointed out, was to tell people not to jump on a WS JUST because he or she is a WS.


And you know something, even with my personal stance of not staying with a cheater, I agree with the premise of this thread.

If a WS shows true remorse and is doing everything they can to make amends, and not trying to blame their spouse, then they shouldn't be jumped on. Its refreshing when WS's practice the art of humility and take the steps to right their wrong.

Its the WS's that gaslight and make excuses for their cheating that deserve no sympathy. Own their sh*t and they should be fine.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Luckily, it truly is a two way street and is easily seen that a betrayed desperate to divorce can be in a "Divorce fog" if you like.


It may well be Dig although I was in the 'reconciliation fog' x 4 so I know exactly how it feels to, above all else, still want to be be with a person you still hope is the one you fell in love with in the beginning, nomatter that they have practically obliterated everything you have lived loved and worked for for 15 years 

I have been the strong reconciler enough to know that one wants to give every benefit of every doubt to the ww.

I don't think tho there is a divorce fog really 

Divorce is just the end of the line when all other options are gone. It's the tidying up of the loose ends. All other 'fogs' have a desperation about them in different degrees. Not so divorce I'd say 

I think this 'reconcile fog' I've just invented! is merely an extension of the bs needing to pull the ww back into the fold. Not good choice of words - its a different fog but not too far removed from that though 

imo of course.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

dusty4 said:


> And you know something, even with my personal stance of not staying with a cheater, I agree with the premise of this thread.
> 
> If a WS shows true remorse and is doing everything they can to make amends, and not trying to blame their spouse, then they shouldn't be jumped on. Its refreshing when WS's practice the art of humility and take the steps to right their wrong.
> 
> Its the WS's that gaslight and make excuses for their cheating that deserve no sympathy. Own their sh*t and they should be fine.


However it highlights my point that when they first come here they are often still in a lack of remorse state and often after a few pages of intense criticism, sometimes sadly abuse, we start to see a change as they realize just what they've been responsible for

It's very rare to see a ww come on here who has chosen to end the infidelity (and not got caught) and lay down at the bs feet displaying abject remorse from the off.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Headspin said:


> It may well be Dig although I was in the 'reconciliation fog' x 4 so I know exactly how it feels to, above all else, still want to be be with a person you still hope is the one you fell in love with in the beginning, nomatter that they have practically obliterated everything you have lived loved and worked for for 15 years
> 
> I have been the strong reconciler enough to know that one wants to give every benefit of every doubt to the ww.
> 
> ...


I know an old couple that was married for decades.. fought, got divorced.. and now they are back together again. Were they in a D fog?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Headspin said:


> However it highlights my point that when they first come here they are often still in a lack of remorse state and often after a few pages of intense criticism, sometimes sadly abuse, we start to see a change as they realize just what they've been responsible for
> 
> *It's very rare to see a ww come on here who has chosen to end the infidelity (and not got caught) and lay down at the bs feet displaying abject remorse from the off.*


Rare, maybe. But I was one of those who did that. I wasn't jumped immediately, but a few months later, one poster seemed to take issue with the fact that I truly believe that a remorseful spouse can reconcile and become a better spouse. She was one who refused to see that we WS CAN change, if we truly want to. And that we CAN have a good marriage after. But she was hellbent on condemning each and every WS because of her husband's actions and subsequent false R before finally going the D route.

So, I can see a hard hitting post can make them wake up... but calling them a worthless POS helps no one. You can get the point across much better by addressing their ACTIONS, and how despicable the actions were than using mud slinging tactics... and that goes for BOTH sides, not just for those attacking the WS!


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## dusty4 (May 8, 2013)

Headspin said:


> However it highlights my point that when they first come here they are often still in a lack of remorse state and often after a few pages of intense criticism, sometimes sadly abuse, we start to see a change as they realize just what they've been responsible for


Then it wouldn't be a case of "condemning the WS FOR THE SAKE OF IT". It would be because they are blameshifting, selfish individuals.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

I still stand behind the fact that you can't truly say what you would or would not do in a theoretical situation. 

Hubs has shown me how to use a firearm. I know where the firearm is kept, how to load it, etc. 

If faced with an intruder, would I use the gun or hide in the closet with the phone? I really don't know. I want to say that I'd stand my ground, aim the firearm and use it but it's really hard to say and I hope I'm never faced with having to find out.


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## dusty4 (May 8, 2013)

TCSRedhead said:


> I still stand behind the fact that you can't truly say what you would or would not do in a theoretical situation.


Perhaps for the majority, but I do what I say and have done it. Theory put in practice

I see what you are saying about theoretical situations, but when it comes to infidelity/cheating, I know me and know what I would do.


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