# Confessions of a sensitive, LD, beta-male nice guy who went too far



## LaundryMan

A few weeks ago I started a thread in the "considering divorce" forum that drew polarized comments. Since then my wife and I have started counseling, and while I maintain that she's been irresponsible and very childish, I have to take a good look at myself if I really want things to improve. I'm doing that, and I now realize a lot of my problems come from my wishy-washyness. If you look at the sticky thread at the top of the Mens' Clubhouse, I am the poster child for everything those references tell you NOT to do. I am the sensitive, carefully-listening, sexually passive, honey-let's-just-not-fight husband to beat them all. I've always been like this due to a combination of personality and upbringing. 

And I realize that if I want to do anything about it, I have to get some things off my chest. I'm posting this here rather than the mens' forum because I already know what they'll tell me. "Man up." Well, for someone like me, that's like telling a lifelong evangelical Christian "there is no God, deal with it." I'm hoping women might have a more nuanced opinion.

My parents' relationship was sexless, loveless, and communication-less. They were a terrible match. Both had been divorced previously, and I suspect they just wanted to still feel attractive. Whatever interest they had in each other was dead by the time I was born. My dad was a taciturn, cold, distant man obsessed with his work. He only expressed opinions when my mom prodded him for so long that he got frustrated and yelled at her or us kids. My mother, for her part, was a chatty emotional wreck who was full of bitterness, especially sexual bitterness. Sex was mentioned in my house only when my mother was complaining about it with her sisters or friends. She could go on forever about how awful it was that men want sex all the time, how men are always staring at women, how men have single-track minds and can't do anything useful except earn money and donate DNA. And my dad seemed perfectly okay with proving her right (except for the sex part; he was outwardly asexual, though I later discovered he had a healthy porn collection). My dad rarely did chores or cooked. My mom has a picture of him feeding me as a baby...she took the picture because it was apparently the first and last time he ever did that. My dad saw his role as making money and staying silent about my mom's constant griping. My mom set all the household rules and did essentially all the disciplining of the kids.

So that was my home situation. Internally, I've always been a sissy. I never played rough as a kid, I always hated sports, and my instinctual response to conflict has always been to run away, not to fight. I've always had the urge to explain myself, rather than just stand up for my feelings (hence, this long post). Not surprisingly, other boys had little respect for me as a kid, and they don't have any respect for me now. And that's fine, because the feeling is mutual. I want nothing from other men and have no male friends, because I can't relate to them.

But things get tricky when it comes to relationships with women. My mom and her friends (the main female influences in my early life) openly hated men acting like men, hated sex. And then there were all the cultural talking points of the late 80's/early 90's when I was coming of age...all women want is respect, flirting at work is BAD, pornography leads to violence against women, etc. Who were the archetypal bad husbands of the time? The abusers, the deadbeat dads, and the sex-crazed cheaters (just look at the movies and TV shows of the era). So what did I learn going into the age at which I was attracted to girls? That sex is bad, wanting women to do things is bad, standing up for yourself is bad because it puts you in league with men who want sex and want women to do things. That the only respectful way to solve a problem is by talking. Indeed, this was one of my mom's many complaints about my dad: "he never listens to me." (This may or may not have been true). Yet I learned at an early age not to discuss my feelings with my mom, because anything negative would be answered with "oh, stop whining. If you were a girl, you'd have real problems". So it seemed to me that a man becomes a good man by NOT doing things: not complaining, not wanting sex, not expecting anything, not yelling, not hitting, not doing "guy stuff." Just bring home the paycheck and do as many chores as possible, and otherwise stay out of her way. Don't question her, because she's female, and therefore has troubles that you could never possibly understand or appreciate. That's how you show respect.

Surprise, surprise, it doesn't work that way in practice. I didn't start trying to date until college (I was put under a lot of pressure to succeed in school...gotta bring home that paycheck, you know) and never understood why women didn't like me. I got the old cliche "You're such a nice guy, but..." routine and it drove me crazy. Isn't that what women want? Isn't that respect, being nice? What, you want me to show sexual interest, like Clarence Thomas?

Still, I never learned anything from these experiences. I was set in my ways by this point, and I rationalized that I was just dealing with young women who had some kind of battered wife mentality. Especially as regards sex. The women in my family had already shown me that women hate sex, that if women ran the world sex would not exist. My mom once caught me watching porn when I was 13 (one of my dad's tapes) and blew up--she said "nobody really does this kind of stuff" and "you must really be sick if you think this is exciting." So I suppressed my desire for sex until it barely existed. It's easier than you might think. I was also (and still am) taking psychiatric drugs that are notorious for killing one's libido, so that helped.

I had relationships in my twenties and they were mostly short-term. Everyone thought I was arrogant and disinterested at first, weak and mealy when they got to know me better. They wanted me to initiate sex, which I almost never did. I told them I didn't want to impose, because that's what I thought it was. Even my psychology-major feminist girlfriend, who used to say things like "that's such a cis-normative portrayal of queer attraction", called me a p***y.

It didn't change. I spent all these years "knowing" women want sex and strong men in the same sense that someone deathly afraid of flying "knows" that air travel is safe. The _thought_ was there, but it never _felt_ real enough for me to change anything. Things finally changed when my marriage started to collapse (both my fault and hers) and I found this group and a couple others. 

In the few months I've been lurking, TAM has been a complete game-changer for me. I think this community is big enough that we've got a decent cross-section of personalities, beliefs, politics, ages, and backgrounds here...and yet the opinion about men like me is virtually 100% *you need to toughen up*. It's not even controversial. The opinion here is all but unanimous that men like me are not being sensitive, or caring, or considerate...we're just being sissies (self-serving sissies, in many cases). I could always rationalize that thought away when one person (my girlfriend or wife) was saying it. Seeing hundreds of women say it makes that much harder to do. It just blows my mind...I've spent my entire life thinking I was doing the right thing.

The other thing I noticed is the number of _women_ complaining about lack of sex in their relationships, which is something I never imagined really happening. And many of these women _have children_, to my amazement (I always viewed giving birth as a one-way ticket to permanent disgust with sex and one's own body, if one wasn't there already...this is one of the many reasons I vowed early on never to father a child). Again, when it was just my partner I could always say their complaining about lack of sex was just manipulation. Seeing hundreds of strangers say the same thing changes everything. 

To top it all off, this past fall my 70 year old, sex-hating, man-hating mother announced that she'd been _having an affair_ (she and my dad have lived apart for many years, but remain legally married). Even this woman who told me I was sick for finding scantily-clad women attractive, who would w(h)ine for hours with her sister about how gross it was to have to share a bed with my father, apparently needed something. 

If you've read this far you probably think I'm a clueless, selfish idiot, and you're exactly right. I'm completely stupid. I'm also angry, and I can't decide whether I should be angry at my family and society for sending me so many ambiguous signals, or angry at myself for misinterpreting them. Every thing I said above is true, about getting the message that sex is bad and strong men are oppressive, but I know there must have been other messages as well, which I somehow filtered out when they didn't match my idea of what a man should be like. How could I have not seen those? Especially when I was hurting my partners so much? I now realize there was a fair bit of misogyny in how I rationalized my actions...when it comes right down to it, I was acting out of fear. I was so afraid of disrespecting women in the stereotypical ways that I disrespected them in unexpected ways that nobody ever told me was possible. I was too dumb to see it happening.

The problem is, like I said at the top, this is essentially a crisis of faith for me (I'm not religious, so I can't say that with certainty, but it's the best analogy I can come up with). In the space of a couple of months my core beliefs about my world have been shaken to the ground. I know I have a problem, but it's not easy for me to change overnight. I'm now in my late thirties, and having to correct decades of habits that I should have given up at 18. Maybe I now know (in a real sense) that it's not oppressive or controlling to want sex from a woman, but that doesn't make me want sex. I now understand that sometimes I have to make tough decisions and stand by them without first talking it over with my wife for six hours, to get her feelings about it...but that doesn't make it easy. 

What might make it easier is having some idea of where that line is drawn...where does strength become abuse, and where does sexual desire become sickness/control? That's why I started this thread. Ladies, where do you draw that line, and which side of the line would you rather have your partner err on? Those of you who identify as feminists, how do you square your need for strength and intimacy with your partner (assuming you have that need) with your desire to be in control of your own life? 

Just so the record is clear: I'm not trying to whine or to push an agenda with this post. I'm honestly asking for help here, and I sincerely appreciate anybody who has a comment. I'm supposed to be working right now so I may not respond much in this thread, but I will be checking it. Thanks.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening laundryman
the most important thing to keep in mind is that different people want different things. You simply cannot generalize about large parts of the population. Some women want frequent hot kinky sex, others would be happy to never have sex. Some want a macho bad-boy man, some want a nice guy. 

You need to first think about what you want, and what you want to be. Then be honest about that with yourself and with women and wait until you find someone who wants what you are. There WILL be someone. The only bad thing to do is to pretend that you are someone you are not - because that will just lead to misery down the road.


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## Faithful Wife

Thanks for sharing your story. You're quite brave to do so!

Really, a lot of people are totally messed up by their parents.

Maybe you can start with that, and just realize that no matter what direction any of us get messed up in, it can be worked with.

I can tell you that there will be no point in trying to lay blame. Nor is there any point in the self-loathing you feel (which comes through in your posts). When you get to the point that you don't want to find out who to blame and you don't hate yourself anymore...you will begin to heal.

Yes, women want sex. Your mother was wrong and sounds like she and your father both have/had their own massive issues. Again, that sucks and I'm sorry you grew up that way. 

I'm sure it will take you some time to start working up a NEW world view, one that matches the rest of (most people's) reality.

Also thank you for pointing out that is is actually quite easy for someone to shut down their own sexuality....women do it all the time but men do, too....I wish more men like you would talk about their situations.

Where does sexual desire become sickness/control? I'd say nowhere.

Desire itself is not a sickness and doesn't control others. I may sometimes be controlled by my own desire (ie: may feel sexual frustration that I cannot control) but frankly, I enjoy feeling extremely sexual like that.


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## LaundryMan

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening laundryman
> the most important thing to keep in mind is that different people want different things. You simply cannot generalize about large parts of the population. Some women want frequent hot kinky sex, others would be happy to never have sex. Some want a macho bad-boy man, some want a nice guy.


Sure, but I never felt like I was "allowed" to think of women as wanting sex or a bad boy, because to do so would be disrespectful. That's why I'm asking for several different opinions here, so I can get some idea of what the distribution is, instead of trying to make a generalization like I've done my entire life.

I have found someone...I'm married. I now think she didn't want me for who I am but for what I could provide her (a house and a paycheck so that she could spend her days playing at the park), but that's another thread there.


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## Marduk

I'm a dude that will tell you to "man up" but I'm going to wade in, anyway.

Start with a vision of what you want to remake yourself as instead of all the baggage and self-loathing of what you were.

Because you don't have to be that guy anymore.


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## Faithful Wife

LaundryMan said:


> I have found someone...I'm married. I now think she didn't want me for who I am but for what I could provide her (a house and a paycheck so that she could spend her days playing at the park), but that's another thread there.


But....isn't that exactly what you wanted to be? Isn't that what you said you were raised to believe you were supposed to be?

It seems like you attracted a woman to help you play out what you already believed about yourself and about women. Which is totally normal, by the way, most of us do some version of that.


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## sisters359

Remember that there is a big difference btw being a patsie and being a good guy. Figure that out--be the good guy who does what is right b/c it is right, does what he wants to do bc he wants to (not out of a misguided expectation of some reward), and learns to like women as people whether or not sex is involved (or even potentially involved). Learn to like men, too, as individuals. Once you get to be the better version of yourself, some of these issues will resolve themselves. You will know "firm" from "controlling" when you move from a position of internal strength and self-confidence--which means you'll know 90% of the time and, like the rest of us, will accept that you aren't perfect and will still under- or over-react some of the time. That's ok! Good luck.


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## ConfusionHasRunRampant

Wow, you sound like my husband. Almost exactly like him. 

I'll add more later, as I'm chained to a file here at work.


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## Fozzy

Laundryman--what do YOU want? What makes YOU happy? And I'm not talking about being happy by making others happy. If someone offered you perfect contentment on a silver platter--what does it look like to you? Draw us a picture.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening LaundryMan
Disrespectful is ..um disrespectful (not helpful). 

I only consider thoughts about a person to be disrespectful when those thoughts in some way diminish the person - somehow make them have less worth.

I do not think sex is bad in any way, so when I think about women wanting sex it is not disrespectful - there are no associated negative thoughts.

To me sex is only negative when one of the participants has negative thoughts about it. If someone wants to be a porn star, that is fine with me if they *WANT* to be a porn star. If instead they are hating themselves, or are feeling coerced into doing something they don't like then that is negative.





LaundryMan said:


> Sure, but I never felt like I was "allowed" to think of women as wanting sex or a bad boy, because to do so would be disrespectful. That's why I'm asking for several different opinions here, so I can get some idea of what the distribution is, instead of trying to make a generalization like I've done my entire life.
> 
> I have found someone...I'm married. I now think she didn't want me for who I am but for what I could provide her (a house and a paycheck so that she could spend her days playing at the park), but that's another thread there.


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## happy as a clam

Ok, admitting upfront, I have not read all the responses. But I read your last thread.

Man Up! Become more Alpha. Stop being a Beta, which you recognize you are.

When my SO wants it, he TAKES it. Is it rape? Absolutely not, because I am always a willing partner, as is he, when either of us wants it.

When we're sleeping, and the urge strikes him, he simply rolls over, gets me aroused, and MAKES it known what he wants. And likewise. If I wake up in the mood, I simply roll over and MAKE it known what I want.

In fact, forget the Alpha/Beta analogy. Just make your wishes known through direct communication.

Wake up, say "Honey, I'm H*rny. I need you."

Problem solved.

To specifically answer your question, STRENGTH is SEXY. Be strong.


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## JWTBL

Since you are a sensitive guy, and introspective, it seems like you would be helped by going to counseling to help you sort out your problems(especially mother issues!). My ex would have benefited by talking to a professional, but he could never admit that he had deep seated problems, many of them because of how his mother treated him. She wasn't purposely hurtful, just clueless. We are who we are because of our life experiences, but that doesn't mean we have to let them affect us the rest of our lives. We need to learn ways to let them go, and sometimes we could use a little help. Nothing wrong with that. Good luck to you.


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## LaundryMan

happy as a clam said:


> Ok, admitting upfront, I have not read all the responses. But I read your last thread.


Yeah, my last thread was not me at my finest. This OP is just as long but better-argued.



happy as a clam said:


> When my SO wants it, he TAKES it. Is it rape? Absolutely not, because I am always a willing partner, as is he, when either of us wants it.


Fine, but where is that line drawn? That's what I'm asking. When you aren't a willing partner? When you're not in the mood? There are plenty of people out there (male and female) who think any sex at all without a clear, unambiguous verbal "YES" is rape. They're a minority, but they're out there. 

I know, I can't anticipate the one in three million people who would react that way. That's part of why I started this thread.


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## LaundryMan

Fozzy said:


> Laundryman--what do YOU want? What makes YOU happy? And I'm not talking about being happy by making others happy. If someone offered you perfect contentment on a silver platter--what does it look like to you? Draw us a picture.


For all my complaining, I have it good. I love my job. Since I completely define myself by my work, that's 90% of the battle (long story short, in addition to the above, my parents also convinced me that a failure in school/career is a failure as a human being. Of course, I gobbled it up.)

The last 10%...it would be nice if a woman would tell me that it's possible to be understanding and caring without ovaries. But TBH I wouldn't believe them even if they said it. I can't trust anyone. Like I said, everything I've done in my social/romantic life has been based on fear.


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## Faithful Wife

I'm sorry if I missed it above but, are you in counseling?


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## happy as a clam

LaundryMan said:


> Yeah, my last thread was not me at my finest. This OP is just as long but better-argued.
> 
> Fine, but *where is that line drawn?*


In my mind, there's no such thing as rape unless one partner clearly says "NO! STOP! I do NOT want to have sex!!"

If she is moaning soft "no's", that's a whole other issue. Only you and your wife know when no means no.



LaundryMan said:


> That's what I'm asking. When you aren't a willing partner? When you're not in the mood?


 Ummmm... if I'm not in the mood, if sex is not "on the table" (which is very rare in my household) I TELL him upfront... "My period started today... ain't gonna happen tonight due to massive cramps."

Clear as day? I think so.



LaundryMan said:


> There are plenty of people out there (male and female) who think any sex at all without a clear, unambiguous verbal "YES" is rape. They're a minority, but they're out there.


Again, clear communication is the key. Yes means yes. No means no.

Why are you worried about "rape"? 

:scratchhead:


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## MountainRunner

LaundryMan said:


> The last 10%...it would be nice if a woman would tell me that it's possible to be understanding and caring without ovaries. But TBH I wouldn't believe them even if they said it. I can't trust anyone. Like I said, everything I've done in my social/romantic life has been based on fear.


You may not believe this LM, but you and I seem to be a lot alike. My childhood consisted of a nonexistent, emotionally disconnected, "beta" father married to a dominant, opinionated, emotional mother and their sex life was nonexistent.

This was how I "learned" about how married folk went about their lives. I became very "alpha" in my behavior, but I really am quite sensitive and emotional. I'm not ashamed to admit that when I hurt...I cry. When I see loved ones hurting...it tears me up. I hug, I cry, I will tell someone that "I'm hurting" instead of masking it behind a "macho" persona of angst. I also understand your trust issues with women as I have the same. I'm currently in therapy and finding out some things that I never thought to even consider. FW asked if you were in therapy...if not...please consider it.

I don't buy in to the whole "man up" that I see here on TAM and other sites, so I'm with you there my friend...Be yourself...embrace your sensitivity because it is..."OK" to be so, alright? There is nothing wrong with that.

My wife tells me sometimes that I can be "too alpha", but she also loves the fact that I deeply care about others and I care for people. Don't change yourself...just seek some therapy and work on some of those fear issues with women, yes? HTH and I wish you all the best my friend.

Namaste


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## Marduk

LaundryMan said:


> For all my complaining, I have it good. I love my job. Since I completely define myself by my work, that's 90% of the battle (long story short, in addition to the above, my parents also convinced me that a failure in school/career is a failure as a human being. Of course, I gobbled it up.)
> 
> The last 10%...it would be nice if a woman would tell me that it's possible to be understanding and caring without ovaries. But TBH I wouldn't believe them even if they said it. I can't trust anyone. Like I said, everything I've done in my social/romantic life has been based on fear.


What.

Do.

You.

Want.

To.

Be?

It's really that simple.


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## happy as a clam

marduk said:


> What.
> 
> Do.
> 
> You.
> 
> Want.
> 
> To.
> 
> Be?
> 
> It's really that simple.


:iagree:


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## SimplyAmorous

MountainRunner said:


> I don't buy in to the whole "man up" that I see here on TAM and other sites, so I'm with you there my friend...*Be yourself...embrace your sensitivity because it is..."OK" to be so, alright? There is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> My wife tells me sometimes that I can be "too alpha", but she also loves the fact that I deeply care about others and I care for people.* Don't change yourself...just seek some therapy and work on some of those fear issues with women, yes? HTH and I wish you all the best my friend.
> 
> Namaste


I feel there is a fine balance in all of these things...you hear the terms Alpha & Beta so often - generally running all BETA into the ground.. but there is GOOD BETA too!! something not spoken of nearly enough...(and those men have sensitivity / compassion....what would our world be like without some of that [email protected]#$)

In fact... if a man didn't have any Beta Traits .. he would just about worthless to any woman ....

Explaining the differences like this:



> The *Alpha Traits* are those associated with classic “manly man” strengths. Power, dominance, physical ability, bravery, wealth, cool and confidence. Oh and good genes. These are the things that attract women and turn them on sexually. The Alpha Traits are linked to the dopamine response in women.
> 
> *Alpha *= attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement





> The *Beta Traits* are those associated with the strengths of being a nice guy / “family man”. Kindness, being a good listener, the ability to help with the children, dependability, thoughtfulness, compassion and patience. These all create a sense of comfort and safety for the woman, and relax her because she feels that if she became pregnant, the Beta Trait male isn’t going to abandon her and the baby.
> 
> *Beta *= comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment"


So Alpha Traits create attraction and that “in love” feeling, and Beta Traits create the pair bond and makes her feel relaxed enough to have sex. You need a balance of both Alpha and Beta in a marriage to maximize her desire to have sex with you.....

There is something very honorable about being YOURSELF.. understanding WHO YOU ARE, WHAT YOU WANT.... and not having to apologize for it.. meet the challenges head on to get it... when it's good and healthy in a marriage.. you will be able to make a case for it ...while holding your head High...

Nothing wrong with conflict.. it's healthy even.. your parents example...WOW.. on sex, communication....you've never seen love exampled in your home.. 

It's good you found this forum to Open up so others can help you on this journey towards wholeness...


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## WandaJ

happy as a clam said:


> *When my SO wants it, he TAKES it. Is it rape? Absolutely not, because I am always a willing partner, as is he, when either of us wants it.*
> 
> When we're sleeping, and the urge strikes him, he simply rolls over, gets me aroused, and MAKES it known what he wants. And likewise. If I wake up in the mood, I simply roll over and MAKE it known what I want.
> 
> In fact, forget the Alpha/Beta analogy. Just make your wishes known through direct communication.
> 
> Wake up, say "Honey, I'm H*rny. I need you."
> 
> Problem solved.
> 
> To specifically answer your question, STRENGTH is SEXY. Be strong.


Careful wiht the underlined part, Laundry Man, this will not work for everybody. This is something you may do once you know each other well and know what's acceptable. and you have to feel comfortable with it too.


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## LaundryMan

MarriedGuy221 said:


> Anyway - I am not going to ask "what do you want?" because it is completely CLEAR that you have no idea what you want.
> 
> You have a lot of ideas about what you DON'T want. You don't want to be a bad guy, say bad things, do bad things, think bad thoughts, be a bad womanizer, etc.


Yes and no. I already am what I want to be...successful in my career (so far). It would be nice if I could make somebody happy on top of that, too. I know that sounds pathetic, but most of the people I know just think I'm depressing. 

To those who said "what do you want to be, it's that simple"...no, it's NOT that simple. If I were 20 and single, maybe. But I have a family to think about. Should I just decide today "hey, I want to have sex with models every day. My house, my rules. Wife, either get implants or get out."??? No, that would make me into my wife, who decided her goal in life is to spend all day every day gossiping on FB, playing at the park, and writing gangster novels while I work...then accuse ME of not appreciating HER.



MarriedGuy221 said:


> There are people you can talk with that will help you move from LaundryMan today to Future LaundryMan - maybe DryCleaningDude or RagMan or SudsChap or whatever.


My vote is for SudsChap.  I should have thought of that earlier.


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## LaundryMan

MountainRunner said:


> I became very "alpha" in my behavior, but I really am quite sensitive and emotional. I'm not ashamed to admit that when I hurt...I cry. When I see loved ones hurting...it tears me up. I hug, I cry, I will tell someone that "I'm hurting" instead of masking it behind a "macho" persona of angst. I also understand your trust issues with women as I have the same. I'm currently in therapy and finding out some things that I never thought to even consider. FW asked if you were in therapy...if not...please consider it.


Actually, I'm not externally emotional. At all. It's been my experience that nobody wants to hear about it, going back to my mom's "shut up, if you were a girl you'd have real problems." (Then she'd turn around and lambast men for trying to be all macho-cool all the time. Oy.) And, let's be honest, a lot of women (not all or even most) really do enjoy shooting down mens' feelings with statements like "Oh yeah, well, I had to give birth to your baby!" (******* version) or "you may think that's a significant feeling, but you're blinded by male privilege" (educated left-wing version). They do that to each other more than to us, but at least then they're on a more or less even footing to start. So why bother expressing emotion? I definitely feel it, but I keep it to myself...my one stereotypical straight-man trait. That and my taste for beer.

I'm in MC. As for IC, no way...I've been ther in the past. Therapists cannot possibly help with something like this. It's just not in their training...a therapist's job is to take a client's issue and shoehorn it into whatever style of therapy they're trained in, no matter what the situation. Especially since the rise of cognitive-behavior therapy, which is the ultimate in cookbook treatment. If A happens, do B. If C happens, do D. If X happens, do the Hokey Pokey and turn yourself around. It's a job robots should be doing.


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## Fozzy

Forget "alpha'ing up". Forget trying to modify your behavior to foster attraction. Forget looking at your life through the prism of how it affects women.

Start here.

http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339


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## LaundryMan

Faithful Wife said:


> Where does sexual desire become sickness/control? I'd say nowhere.
> 
> Desire itself is not a sickness and doesn't control others. I may sometimes be controlled by my own desire (ie: may feel sexual frustration that I cannot control) but frankly, I enjoy feeling extremely sexual like that.


Thanks for your opinion. This is the kind of answer I was looking for. I suspect most people would draw the line closer than you do, but that's why I'm asking.

To answer your other question, yes I'm in marriage counseling, but this is something else that will have to be dealt with separately from the MC. I'm not going to individual therapy, though (see my last post). Reading stuff here is much more helpful to me anyway.


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## LaundryMan

happy as a clam said:


> Why are you worried about "rape"?
> 
> :scratchhead:


You mean you're NOT?


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## Fozzy

You won't be able to be happy and at peace until you free yourself from the damage that's been done to your mind. Acting "alpha" will be just an act, and it will be seen through like Saran Wrap until you get your own mind to a state of confidence and peace.

Your goal needs to be to live your life in a way that makes you happy. You're NOT happy right now. That's why you're here. Your career does not make you happy. It may define you, but that's all it does (this is by your own admission). 

Once you've become ok with the core you, THEN you can start looking at how your interactions with women play out. 

Asserting yourself and going after your own happiness does not mean someone else has to suffer as a result. It's not a zero-sum game.


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## happy as a clam

LaundryMan said:


> You mean you're NOT?


Not at all.. in a "safe" relationship where both partners respect boundaries and KNOW what is in, what is out.

I could *not * be in a relationship where I was not secure in what constitutes "rape" vs. "rough sex", animal instincts, raw love.

:scratchhead:

How is it that you (or your partner) are unable to differentiate?


----------



## jaquen

happy as a clam said:


> Again, clear communication is the key. Yes means yes. No means no.
> 
> Why are you worried about "rape"?
> 
> :scratchhead:


It's deflection. The man already admitted that he's full of fear. He has a ton of time and energy invested in maintaining his life's perspective, even as said perspective has failed to yield the outcomes he once thought they would. His whole world is crumbling around him. That's extremely difficult to embrace for the vast majority of people.

He's going to likely spend a lot of time in this thread deflecting, avoiding, minimizing, excusing and displacing. There's likely going to be a lot of passive aggressiveness here, self loathing and attempts to suggest that his life isn't really all THAT bad. Nothing about finding out much of your whole life was built on lies is easy.

This man likely needs an extraordinary therapist or counselor to work through over 30 years of very real issues. I hope he can find some genuine help here, especially from his fellow men that he's spent decades avoiding, but after reading that OP my biggest hope is that he finds professional help to wade through this quagmire. 

A man like this likely doesn't even truly know himself, much less what he wants out of life. He's going to need a lot of real help from professionals who are well versed in dealing with this set of issues.


----------



## happy as a clam

jaquen said:


> It's deflection. The man already admitted that he's full of fear. He has a ton of time and energy invested in maintaining his life's perspective, even as said perspective has failed to yield the outcomes he once thought they would. His whole world is crumbling around him. That's extremely difficult to embrace for the vast majority of people.
> 
> He's going to likely spend a lot of time in this thread deflecting, avoiding, minimizing, excusing and displacing. There's likely going to be a lot of passive aggressiveness here, self loathing and attempts to suggest that his life isn't really all THAT bad. Nothing about finding out much of your whole life was built on lies is easy.
> 
> This man likely needs an extraordinary therapist or counselor to work through over 30 years of very real issues. I hope he can find some genuine help here, especially from his fellow men that he's spent decades avoiding, but after reading that OP my biggest hope is that he finds professional help to wade through this quagmire.
> 
> A man like this likely doesn't even truly know himself, much less what he wants out of life. He's going to need a lot of real help from professionals who are well versed in dealing with this set of issues.



With all sincerity, jaquen... GENIUS post! Simply genius!

I agree with everything you said.


----------



## Marduk

LaundryMan said:


> Yes and no. I already am what I want to be...successful in my career (so far). It would be nice if I could make somebody happy on top of that, too. I know that sounds pathetic, but most of the people I know just think I'm depressing.
> 
> To those who said "what do you want to be, it's that simple"...no, it's NOT that simple. If I were 20 and single, maybe. But I have a family to think about. Should I just decide today "hey, I want to have sex with models every day. My house, my rules. Wife, either get implants or get out."??? No, that would make me into my wife, who decided her goal in life is to spend all day every day gossiping on FB, playing at the park, and writing gangster novels while I work...then accuse ME of not appreciating HER.
> 
> 
> 
> My vote is for SudsChap.  I should have thought of that earlier.


That's fear talking, man.

OK, let's try again.

You hit the imaginary ctl-alt-delete on your life and you get a redo. You're exactly the guy you want to be.

Not your career. Not to make someone ELSE happy. Not to date models or have a wife with fake boobs. 

Who is that guy? What does he sound like? What does he act like? What does he value? What does he inspire in others?


----------



## NobodySpecial

LaundryMan said:


> And, let's be honest, a lot of women (not all or even most) really do enjoy shooting down mens' feelings with statements like "Oh yeah, well, I had to give birth to your baby!" (******* version) or "you may think that's a significant feeling, but you're blinded by male privilege"


Dude. Most women DON'T enjoy just being jerks. 



> I'm in MC. As for IC, no way...I've been ther in the past. Therapists cannot possibly help with something like this. It's just not in their training...a therapist's job is to take a client's issue and shoehorn it into whatever style of therapy they're trained in, no matter what the situation.


I believe that even your approach to therapy is driven by fear. Fear that you might achieve the change you claim to desire. You want someone to love you, to be made happy by you. But the way you describe yourself. Well I don't mean to be mean. But you sound pretty pathetic. Who is going to love pathetic? Do you have the courage to face the awesome guy you are in there despite the fear? That awesome guy that you are in there is very lovable. And he can learn new lessons instead of getting hung up on the wrong lessons he learned as a young adult.

(Incidentally I have had really good luck with therapists who deal in mindfulness and using it to modify your internal speech to yourself.)


----------



## NobodySpecial

marduk said:


> Who is that guy? What does he sound like? What does he act like? What does he value? What does he inspire in others?



YES!


----------



## jorgegene

I read the original post and most of the comments.

I'm still not clear on whether OP is currently married, his past relationships and what he wants from his current (or) future relationships.

LaundryMan can you distill this for us?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Laundryman. I love the vulnerability in your OP. I have a good bit to say and will come back and say it later today, but just wanted to give you a shout out for great vulnerability and introspection.


----------



## Anonymous07

marduk said:


> That's fear talking, man.
> 
> OK, let's try again.
> 
> You hit the imaginary ctl-alt-delete on your life and you get a redo. You're exactly the guy you want to be.
> 
> Not your career. Not to make someone ELSE happy. Not to date models or have a wife with fake boobs.
> 
> *Who is that guy? What does he sound like? What does he act like? What does he value? What does he inspire in others?*


:iagree:

OP, I know you said you don't want to do IC, but I think you need it. You have a lot of things you need to work through, that only a professional can help you do. At some point you'll have to let go of the past you and start to become the man you want to be. So who is that? It doesn't mean you abandon your current life, but look at what changes you can make to become the person you want to be on the inside.


----------



## LaundryMan

marduk said:


> Who is that guy? What does he sound like? What does he act like? What does he value? What does he inspire in others?


Doing work that I like to do...check. Able to make others feel comfortable around me. Stable and dependable...check, sort of. Wise. Reassuring. Understanding (clearly triple-mega-UNcheck on that one).

I appreciate all the comments. I don't understand why this question seems to be such a big deal to many readers, though. I'm not trying to completely become someone different. I was just asking where others set their boundaries, so I could stop trying to take the safest, least offensive, least dangerous route through life. I'm trying to turn on the lights so I can see where the wet paint is on the floor, so I can walk around it, instead of standing in one place forever afraid of stepping in it. Maybe later I'll lose my fear of stepping in wet paint, but that's a ways off.


----------



## Marduk

LaundryMan said:


> Doing work that I like to do...check. Able to make others feel comfortable around me. Stable and dependable...check, sort of. Wise. Reassuring. Understanding (clearly triple-mega-UNcheck on that one).
> 
> I appreciate all the comments. I don't understand why this question seems to be such a big deal to many readers, though. I'm not trying to completely become someone different. I was just asking where others set their boundaries, so I could stop trying to take the safest, least offensive, least dangerous route through life. I'm trying to turn on the lights so I can see where the wet paint is on the floor, so I can walk around it, instead of standing in one place forever afraid of stepping in it. Maybe later I'll lose my fear of stepping in wet paint, but that's a ways off.


It's a big deal because you're not answering it. 

And I worry you're not answering it because either you haven't thought about it, or don't care, or are afraid of the answer. 

When you're alone, who are you?

Really?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

LaundryMan said:


> Doing work that I like to do...check. Able to make others feel comfortable around me. Stable and dependable...check, sort of. Wise. Reassuring. Understanding (clearly triple-mega-UNcheck on that one).
> 
> I appreciate all the comments. I don't understand why this question seems to be such a big deal to many readers, though. I'm not trying to completely become someone different. I was just asking where others set their boundaries, so I could stop trying to take the safest, least offensive, least dangerous route through life. I'm trying to turn on the lights so I can see where the wet paint is on the floor, so I can walk around it, instead of standing in one place forever afraid of stepping in it. Maybe later I'll lose my fear of stepping in wet paint, but that's a ways off.



Your going to make mistakes, but mistakes are a way in which we learn and gain experience. Instead of being stuck, afraid of making a decision, a path to follow, you simply follow the one you believe that represents the best choice. It could be wrong or it could be correct, the fact is your doing something. If a mistake is made, analyze, learn, and move on.

A journey cannot be made if one does not choose to walk. Wrong paths may happen, backtrack, and continue going.


----------



## LaundryMan

jorgegene said:


> I read the original post and most of the comments.
> 
> I'm still not clear on whether OP is currently married, his past relationships and what he wants from his current (or) future relationships.
> 
> LaundryMan can you distill this for us?


I'm married. My past relationships have been varied but generally I've been the passive one. My wife of 7 years is an ungrateful spoiled brat with an explosive temper, but I do love her and she has many good qualities that work for me. I'd like to rescue our marriage and for all the things she's going to have to change, if I want her to change I need to take a good look at myself. I'm not giving her much to be thankful for, in other words. Not that that excuses some of the things she's done.


----------



## LaundryMan

jaquen said:


> It's deflection. The man already admitted that he's full of fear. He has a ton of time and energy invested in maintaining his life's perspective, even as said perspective has failed to yield the outcomes he once thought they would. His whole world is crumbling around him. That's extremely difficult to embrace for the vast majority of people.


Can you explain what you mean by "deflection"? I don't know this term. I assume you mean it's a kind of fake fear to distract from my real fears? (If so, I disagree).

Also, why should therapy involve help from fellow men? That's NOT something I want for myself. I'm perfectly happy not associating with other men. It's not fear, it's dislike (and fear, but the dislike is the bigger term). I really do appreciate the comments and suggestions I've received from the guys here (womens' forum or not), but I have zero interest in being one of the guys. The only thing I have in common with other men is anatomy, and that's fine with me. I may be afraid of women but at least I LIKE them.


----------



## Marduk

I like women, too. 

And I'm not afraid of them. 

They seem to like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

LaundryMan said:


> *Can you explain what you mean by "deflection"? * I don't know this term. I assume you mean it's a kind of fake fear to distract from my real fears? (If so, I disagree).
> 
> Also, why should therapy involve help from fellow men? That's NOT something I want for myself. I'm perfectly happy not associating with other men. It's not fear, it's dislike (and fear, but the dislike is the bigger term). I really do appreciate the comments and suggestions I've received from the guys here (womens' forum or not), but I have zero interest in being one of the guys. The only thing I have in common with other men is anatomy, and that's fine with me. I may be afraid of women but at least I LIKE them.


All of this IS deflection. Look it up.


----------



## imperfectworld

Laundryman, I can relate to 90% of your original post. Thought I was the only one brought up with distorted beliefs like that...


----------



## jaquen

LaundryMan said:


> Can you explain what you mean by "deflection"? I don't know this term. I assume you mean it's a kind of fake fear to distract from my real fears? (If so, I disagree).
> 
> Also, why should therapy involve help from fellow men? That's NOT something I want for myself. I'm perfectly happy not associating with other men. It's not fear, it's dislike (and fear, but the dislike is the bigger term). I really do appreciate the comments and suggestions I've received from the guys here (womens' forum or not), but I have zero interest in being one of the guys. The only thing I have in common with other men is anatomy, and that's fine with me. I may be afraid of women but at least I LIKE them.


You were raised by a woman to essentially be a woman with a penis.

This wouldn't be an issue if you were accepting of yourself and this road was yielding results you desire. But it's not. That's why you're here.

You're not truly afraid of women. You have resentments toward them, yes, but you're not afraid of them. You're afraid of MEN. Afraid to be a man, to relate to your masculine self, to be in touch with the "evil" man your mother seemed to hate, but likely quietly adored (hence her affair...with a man). 

You will not learn how to be a man from a woman. That will never happen. As long as you stigmatize, marginalize, and dismiss men out of fear all you're doing is stigmatizing, marginalizing and dismissing yourself.

Because, despite your mother's best efforts, and your continuation of her dysfunction, you are still...a man. And you're attracted to women who want such.


----------



## alexm

This is an absolutely fascinating post, an eye-opener, and also rather cringe-worthy in parts.

OP, I sympathize with you, as I am also the sensitive, beta-male nice guy (though not to the extreme that you describe yourself, and I'm not LD).

However, I was not raised the same way you were - quite the opposite, really. My father was a "guys guy" and lacked a complete respect for women - though not in a bad way, if that makes sense. More an old-school mentality when it came to men/women. My mother was rather submissive to my father, and that was the general dynamic in their marriage.

And this is what I find most interesting - that you didn't rebel when you were younger and go in an opposite direction, which so many of us do. Instead, you were moulded by your parents almost according to plan. Whereas I consciously deviated away from the dynamics my parents had in their marriage.

So rather than follow in my father's footsteps and turn into an old-school man's man, I became more sensitive towards women and have always generally treated them as equals, as partners. My father and mother both worked and both had careers. My father would drive to work, my mother rode the bus. My father would be home a good 1/2 hour before my mother most days, yet still expected her to make dinner for us. He did not vacuum or clean or do laundry or grocery shop. And she never complained.

But I saw this from a young age and felt it was unfair, so I often helped out around the house without being told. By 12 or 13 I was doing my own laundry, just to alleviate the amount my mother had to do. By my mid-teens I was making my own meals. I would clean my room without being told. I would take the vacuum and do the house without being told. Anything I could do to lessen the workload on my mother.

And this carried over into my relationships and marriage(s).

It took me until my early 30's to recognize that many women don't actually want this. They DO want a man's man in many cases, or at least the hint of one. They want a balance. Too far in one direction is never good.

Anyway, my advice is to make friends with other men. I sometimes feel that I'm much too picky about my male friends, and I often find myself not identifying with them in one way or another. But when I see past the outward personalities, I realize they're not a whole lot different than I am. The influence of having guy friends around can't be understated, as one really needs to be around their own sex to maintain the balance we all need. That's just the way it is.


----------



## alexm

LaundryMan said:


> I was just asking where others set their boundaries, so I could stop trying to take the safest, least offensive, least dangerous route through life. I'm trying to turn on the lights so I can see where the wet paint is on the floor, so I can walk around it, instead of standing in one place forever afraid of stepping in it. Maybe later I'll lose my fear of stepping in wet paint, but that's a ways off.


I think you answered your own question.

Everybody's boundaries are different, but they generally don't vary by much.

For one, you have to not be afraid to step in wet paint from time to time, and in fact, sometimes you actually need to walk through the wet paint on purpose and not worry about having to clean up the mess later on.

A healthy balance is, to me anyway, not spending all your time worrying about other people's happiness, nor spending all your time worrying about YOUR happiness. Go the extra mile on occasion for others, AND for yourself.

You were not put on this earth to serve others, including your wife. You did not marry her to cater to her needs at all times. You are not a martyr, Mother Teresa or the Pope.

One thing to remember is that nobody, and I mean nobody, wants somebody in their life who's sole purpose is to serve them. Everybody, whether male or female, requires a challenge from their spouse or partner. You present no challenge to your wife. Currently, you're just "there" in her eyes. She needs you to take the reigns on occasion, just as you require the same from her.

My opinion (and only based on your words here) is that you're not socialized. You're on the periphery, socially speaking. You're the one wolf in the pack who is on the outside looking in yet is still allowed to follow the pack and pick up the scraps. Occasionally one of the other wolves will save you some meat, and you're all too happy to accept it.

If anybody knows anything about wolves (or dogs) it's that within the pack, there is the Alpha, and there is the Beta. One of each. Every other pack member is smack dab in the middle.

It's the ones who are in the middle who are happiest and most likely to live long healthy lives. Ironically, the Alpha wolf/dog is not happy - it's a job of necessity, and somebody has to take it. And the Beta is the sacrifice, the weakling who gets eaten/shot first and who survives on scraps.

Currently, you are the Beta, and you're not all THAT unhappy about it. Enough that you're here inquiring how to change and get into the "middle". Yet the rest of us "middles" (and a few Alphas) are challenging you and you're basically backing down every step of the way.

You know how you challenge a dog? You stare at him. If he looks away, he's submitted to you. If he's Alpha, he doesn't look away. You're challenging the Alpha dog, OP, but you're looking away. It's a good start, simply by challenging, but you've got to bare some teeth at some point.


----------



## happy as a clam

jaquen said:


> *You were raised by a woman to essentially be a woman with a penis.*
> 
> This wouldn't be an issue if you were accepting of yourself and this road was yielding results you desire. But it's not. That's why you're here.
> 
> You're not truly afraid of women. You have resentments toward them, yes, but you're not afraid of them. You're afraid of MEN. Afraid to be a man, to relate to your masculine self, to be in touch with the "evil" man your mother seemed to hate, but likely quietly adored (hence her affair...with a man).
> 
> *You will not learn how to be a man from a woman. That will never happen.* As long as you stigmatize, marginalize, and dismiss men out of fear all you're doing is stigmatizing, marginalizing and dismissing yourself.
> 
> Because, despite your mother's best efforts, and your continuation of her dysfunction, you are still...a man. And you're attracted to women who want such.


jaquen... you continue to amaze me with your spot-on thoughts..

As someone who WAS married to a female with a penis, I can tell you it is NOT an attractive feature for a male.

My ex dealt with everything EXACTLY like a "stereotypical hysterical" woman would. (Notice I said "stereotypical"? Don't want any 2x4s hurled my way by TAM ladies!) Getting upset over trivial matters, SCREECHING about it, stomping around, throwing things... all the while, everyone in the vicinity is looking at him like :wtf:...


----------



## Deejo

Sounds like you are caught up in analysis paralysis.

That's common too.

You need to be able to make some fundamental distinctions.

The way you self-define does not make you a bad man.

The way you self-define does not make you appear as a very attractive man.

Which then begs the question. If you like and accept who you are, why change? Do you want to change?

Don't change to win your wife back. 

Change because it is what you want to do for yourself. And/or because you want something very different from what you have always gotten as a result of being who you are.


----------



## Nomorebeans

Just want to give you another woman's perspective, here.

Here's my back story: My father left my mother for another woman when I was 2. My brothers were 7 and 8.

My Dad was the love of my mother's life - they actually had a great sex life, I learned from her many years later, but they fought like cats and dogs and couldn't stand each other on any other level. When he left, she fell apart. She started drinking, and spiraled into a full-blown alcoholic by the time I was 5.

I lived with her until I was 13, then had to move in with my father and stepmother (not the woman he left her for - that one didn't work out, big surprise) because she went into rehab for six weeks, and after that, she just thought I would be better off having a more stable family life.

First boyfriend was in high school: Didn't lose my virginity with him until I was 18 (we'd been dating for 3 years). Had a really good sexual relationship with him after that for several months, but then found out from a mutual friend that he was sleeping around quite frequently while away at school.

Broke up with him. After several months, started dating another guy. A Guy's Guy type, just as my first boyfriend had been. Waited a month to have sex with him - wanted to take it slowly. He dumped me the next day after we finally did. He had lasted about 10 seconds, and was, I'm sure, embarassed about that. I had handled it very kindly and didn't make a big deal (or really any deal) out of it, etc. But that was that. Admittedly, after him, I had a couple one-night-stands, because I just figured it doesn't mean anything to guys, anyway, so what the he!!. Didn't like the way that felt after the fact, though, so again took it slowly with the next guy I liked. And that was yet another case of sex after several dates, and then the calls got few and far between. And I thought we had a good experience - he even told me he "really, really liked me" afterwards, and gave me other compliments. But again, that was that.

After graduating, I met a guy I liked at my first job. After being friends for about six months, our relationship went to the next level. I had had a crush on him the whole time we were friends, but didn't think he was interested in me in that way. We actually had a good relationship physically and otherwise for about three months, but then things started to become more serious and he dumped me. I didn't pressure him or give him any ultimatums - he just said he felt like it was all moving too fast, and he wanted to continue to see other people. Next girl he dated, he married.

So, after this long history of having my heart torn out repeatedly by guys I really cared about, I met the man who would become my husband, and now my STBX. He was a nice guy. He called when he said he would. He included me in his future plans. We developed our sexual relationship at a mutually agreed-upon pace. He didn't dump me after one or two times of having sex. We grew closer. He was always very respectful. I liked how calm things were and how at peace I felt when I was with him. I felt like I'd finally found someone who saw me as an equal, and for whom it wasn't all about sex until he got bored with it and/or me, and who didn't get scared when we talked about the future.

The trouble started in our marriage because neither of us were initiators. He was so respectful, like you, that he thought the woman should always initiate it, otherwise, it's just imposing on her. And by this, I mean he wasn't even affectionate. He didn't hold my hand or give me a hug or a kiss when I came home from work (I'd do that with him, and he was just kind of cold about it). I started withdrawing little by little, and then he read that as my not being interested in him anymore, and he withdrew, and then started resenting me. And then the criticism started, and eventually became kind of constant - about everything - the way I walk, talk, cut my food... We should have talked about how things were really starting to tank, but because we both hated fighting due to memories of parents who yelled at each other (his parents were in a loveless, sexless marriage for a long time, like yours, and his father drank heavily), we didn't bring up difficult subjects like that. We really should have split up about three years into the marriage, if I'm quite honest with myself. But we stayed. And had a son. And now, 25 years later, he's finally leaving me for another woman.

So, my perspective is I'm a 50-year-old woman who really is not LD and is fully sexually functional, but who has apparently had a very long history of picking the wrong guys. And I think I need to look at why I've kept doing that all these years. Or else just plan on being alone.

I think I would like to be with a guy who's all the things you are - nice, sensitive (but not dramatic - I hate drama, which is why I generally don't like other women very much and don't relate to them at all), respectful, non-confrontational (all the good things my STBX was), but who also is deeply in love with me exactly as I am, which I now realize my STBX probably never really was, and who is regularly affectionate and loving with me. My STBX never once reached out to me in our entire marriage and just gave me a kiss. I did to him several times, and nothing happened after that. When we did have sex, it was something we talked about and planned beforehand. I'm sure it's spontaneous and passionate for him now with the OW.

I don't know what advice I have for you except, as hard as it may be, try talking to your wife about what's going on with you if you really love her and want to keep your marriage going. I know that's at least one thing I'll take away from this whole disaster that is now my marriage and how it's ending - if I'm ever in another relationship that matters and things start to go South, I'll talk to him about it, no matter how hard I find it to initiate that conversation. If he doesn't love and value me enough to listen and meet me halfway when I do that, then that'll be that.


----------



## Marduk

Deejo said:


> Sounds like you are caught up in analysis paralysis.
> 
> That's common too.
> 
> You need to be able to make some fundamental distinctions.
> 
> The way you self-define does not make you a bad man.
> 
> The way you self-define does not make you appear as a very attractive man.
> 
> Which then begs the question. If you like and accept who you are, why change? Do you want to change?
> 
> Don't change to win your wife back.
> 
> Change because it is what you want to do for yourself. And/or because you want something very different from what you have always gotten as a result of being who you are.


What seems abundantly clear to me is his self-loathing.

And I struggle how he could be happy with himself when he loathes his masculinity and fears women.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Deejo said:


> Sounds like you are caught up in analysis paralysis.
> 
> That's common too.
> 
> You need to be able to make some fundamental distinctions.
> 
> The way you self-define does not make you a bad man.
> 
> The way you self-define does not make you appear as a very attractive man.
> 
> Which then begs the question. If you like and accept who you are, why change? Do you want to change?
> 
> Don't change to win your wife back.
> 
> Change because it is what you want to do for yourself. And/or because you want something very different from what you have always gotten as a result of being who you are.


QFT


----------



## LaundryMan

happy as a clam said:


> As someone who WAS married to a female with a penis, I can tell you it is NOT an attractive feature for a male.


Then WHY WHY WHY WHY do we NEVER hear women complaining about the men in their lives being too womanly? Honestly, apart from complaints in private from my wife and exes, I never once heard any woman say this until I discovered TAM. I hear "he just won't put down the remote control and listen to me" and "he doesn't even know how to sweep the floor" and "he just jumps in bed and whips it out, how gross" every day, but statements like this have just been absent from the cultural dialogue in my experience. As someone else said, I am pretty poorly-socialized, but I can't possibly be so tuned out that I've missed half of all womens' opinions about men.


----------



## happy as a clam

LaundryMan said:


> Then WHY WHY WHY WHY do we NEVER hear women complaining about the men in their lives being *too womanly?*


Ummm... I have no idea what women you are referring to, but I can assure you I (and many others) would NOT want to be with a "womanly" man.



LaundryMan said:


> Honestly, *apart from complaints in private from my wife and exes,* I never once heard any woman say this until I discovered TAM.


Well, there you go. Your wife and your exes have privately shared this exact sentiment. Why do you not want to believe them? :scratchhead:


----------



## LaundryMan

happy as a clam said:


> Ummm... I have no idea what women you are referring to, but I can assure you I (and many others) would NOT want to be with a "womanly" man.


Have you expressed this sentiment publicly? Not here but in RL, to friends, coworkers, acquaintances? Were any of these men?



happy as a clam said:


> Well, there you go. Your wife and your exes have privately shared this exact sentiment. Why do you not want to believe them? :scratchhead:


See my OP. I haven't been in a huge number of relationships, so with these isolated cases it was easy to tell myself that they were just being dramatic. Plus, all of them spent a lot of time making the more common complaints about men I mentioned above. For example, my wife used to go on and on about how her previous husband would expect her to cook every meal every day even though he didn't work, and if he didn't like what she made he'd just get up and go get Burger King. And how he never fed or changed their baby. (She left him soon after and I basically raised her kid from age 2 on up).


----------



## happy as a clam

LaundryMan said:


> H
> See my OP. I haven't been in a huge number of relationships, so with these isolated cases *it was easy to tell myself that they were just being dramatic.*


I'm not sure they were being dramatic.

Look, of course women want their partners to be helpful and share in household tasks. I assume men want the same things. No one wants to get stuck doing it all.

But don't mistake being helpful and pitching in with being overly-effeminate. They are not the same thing, by a long shot.


----------



## LaundryMan

Nomorebeans said:


> Just want to give you another woman's perspective, here....
> If he doesn't love and value me enough to listen and meet me halfway when I do that, then that'll be that.


Thank you for this story. So if I understand you correctly, you're saying the line is drawn where being nonconfrontational becomes an excuse for being avoidant. That is helpful. Yes, I have avoided conflict where possible and it's probably done a lot to hurt my marriage (it doesn't help that my wife cannot take even the mildest criticism, but that's no excuse and it's really not my problem).


----------



## NobodySpecial

LaundryMan said:


> Then WHY WHY WHY WHY do we NEVER hear women complaining about the men in their lives being too womanly?


The "tell them" by not going out with them in younger years.



> Honestly, apart from complaints in private from my wife and exes, I never once heard any woman say this until I discovered TAM. I hear "he just won't put down the remote control and listen to me" and "he doesn't even know how to sweep the floor" and "he just jumps in bed and whips it out, how gross" every day, but statements like this have just been absent from the cultural dialogue in my experience. As someone else said, I am pretty poorly-socialized, but I can't possibly be so tuned out that I've missed half of all womens' opinions about men.


Who are the people you hang out with? They just sound like b!tches.


----------



## always_alone

LaundryMan said:


> Then WHY WHY WHY WHY do we NEVER hear women complaining about the men in their lives being too womanly? Honestly, apart from complaints in private from my wife and exes, I never once heard any woman say this until I discovered TAM. I hear "he just won't put down the remote control and listen to me" and "he doesn't even know how to sweep the floor" and "he just jumps in bed and whips it out, how gross" every day, but statements like this have just been absent from the cultural dialogue in my experience. As someone else said, I am pretty poorly-socialized, but I can't possibly be so tuned out that I've missed half of all womens' opinions about men.


IMHO, these are the more common complaints expressed by women. I too never heard women complaining about a man not being "man enough" until I came to TAM. Never.

I think a lot of it depends on the individuals involved and how they were socialized. 

Personally, I have always found men with emotional intelligence, sensitivity, and some understanding of some key feminist issues to be the most attractive/desirable to be around. 

I do remember, though, that there was a period of feminist stridency, particularly around the early 80s, that traumatized an awful lot of men. This was the movement where things like "all penetration is rape" were repeated over an over again, and men were often roundly chastized for exercising male privilege and told they simply could not ever understand or be properly supportive of women because of their gender.

This sounds like the gender politics environment your mother was a part of. And like so many of the ultra extremists in that group, there was an awful lot of hypocrisy. Because really, even though many of them tried to hate men, and many even turned to lesbianism as an attempt at a solution, they mostly realized that it was their politics, and not men themselves, that were the problem.

And, ultimately, I think this might be what you need to remind yourself of. Even though the messages were powerful, they aren't really true, at least not the more extreme ones, and it's time to let go of them.

This doesn't necessarily mean you need to change yourself into what others think you should be.


----------



## LaundryMan

happy as a clam said:


> But don't mistake being helpful and pitching in with being overly-effeminate. They are not the same thing, by a long shot.


Ok, then (getting back to my OP) where do you, personally, think the right balance lies? There are women out there who think that all domestic work must be split precisely 50/50, if it means carrying a stopwatch and a GoPro around your house, and anything less is MALE CHAUVINISTIC PRIVILEGED OPPRESSION OMGWTFBBQ. And then there are women like my wife, who literally does not allow me to do household chores unless she's away (she once screamed at the top of her lungs because I was bored and decided to scrub the toilets..."how DARE you try to tell me I don't keep a clean house!!!!")


----------



## LaundryMan

always_alone said:


> I do remember, though, that there was a period of feminist stridency, particularly around the early 80s, that traumatized an awful lot of men. This was the movement where things like "all penetration is rape" were repeated over an over again, and men were often roundly chastized for exercising male privilege and told they simply could not ever understand or be properly supportive of women because of their gender.


I really don't want to drag politics into this thread, but this is a point worth discussing. My mom did fancy herself a feminist, even though she's basically a traditionalist and it's pretty easy to point out how many of her opinions were fundamentally anti-female. But you know what? Nobody, to my knowledge, ever challenged her on it. 

Feminism is certainly healthier today. I work at a college, and a month or so ago, during our sexual assault awareness campaign, I saw a female student wearing a t-shirt that says "I (heart) consensual sex". That's something you never would have seen when I was in college. She would have been accused of being an apologist for rapists. Not by everybody, but by the loudest and shrillest voices.

Nice to see I'm not the only one who has noticed that publicly at least, women who complain about the super-masculine are far more common or noticeable than those who complain about girly-men like me.


----------



## Marduk

LaundryMan said:


> Then WHY WHY WHY WHY do we NEVER hear women complaining about the men in their lives being too womanly? Honestly, apart from complaints in private from my wife and exes, I never once heard any woman say this until I discovered TAM. I hear "he just won't put down the remote control and listen to me" and "he doesn't even know how to sweep the floor" and "he just jumps in bed and whips it out, how gross" every day, but statements like this have just been absent from the cultural dialogue in my experience. As someone else said, I am pretty poorly-socialized, but I can't possibly be so tuned out that I've missed half of all womens' opinions about men.


LOL, dude...

Have you never eavesdropped on women talking about their sex life after a bottle of wine?

It's a very different conversation.

Remember that women are just people. People can like all kinds of things. I have different perspectives at work than I do with my buddies over a beer than I do in bed naked with my wife.

Context, man.

Imagine that women are just people like you. Frail, conflicted, stubborn, yet remarkable, intelligent, and resilient. They really are beautiful, yet flawed creatures. Just like men are.


----------



## Marduk

LaundryMan said:


> Ok, then (getting back to my OP) where do you, personally, think the right balance lies? There are women out there who think that all domestic work must be split precisely 50/50, if it means carrying a stopwatch and a GoPro around your house, and anything less is MALE CHAUVINISTIC PRIVILEGED OPPRESSION OMGWTFBBQ. And then there are women like my wife, who literally does not allow me to do household chores unless she's away (she once screamed at the top of her lungs because I was bored and decided to scrub the toilets..."how DARE you try to tell me I don't keep a clean house!!!!")


Pink chores and blue chores.

Or whatever metaphor works for you.

There's your jobs, or her jobs. And maybe some stuff that falls in between. Just be clear that you get your own stuff done and expect the same of her.


----------



## Marduk

LaundryMan said:


> I really don't want to drag politics into this thread, but this is a point worth discussing. My mom did fancy herself a feminist, even though she's basically a traditionalist and it's pretty easy to point out how many of her opinions were fundamentally anti-female. But you know what? Nobody, to my knowledge, ever challenged her on it.
> 
> Feminism is certainly healthier today. I work at a college, and a month or so ago, during our sexual assault awareness campaign, I saw a female student wearing a t-shirt that says "I (heart) consensual sex". That's something you never would have seen when I was in college. She would have been accused of being an apologist for rapists. Not by everybody, but by the loudest and shrillest voices.
> 
> Nice to see I'm not the only one who has noticed that publicly at least, women who complain about the super-masculine are far more common or noticeable than those who complain about girly-men like me.


I was raised by a single feminist mother in a very conservative small town.

My response to all that noise was to realize:

1. women are human beings (yay!)
2. women get to make their own choices (yay!)
3. some women like to try to seize power by trying to portray men as evil (boo!)

I actually bought into #3. Until I went through puberty. 

And I realized that a woman consenting to sex with me doesn't make her a victim, nor me a victimizer. If she's a human being with the ability to make her own choices, I can celebrate that.

And, sometimes, they wanted me to celebrate that most... enthusiastically.

And that's a good thing.

So enjoy it.


----------



## LaundryMan

marduk said:


> Imagine that women are just people like you. Frail, conflicted, stubborn, yet remarkable, intelligent, and resilient. They really are beautiful, yet flawed creatures. Just like men are.


Don't forget spiteful, manipulative, unforgiving, angry, prejudiced, and self-serving...just like men are. If we're going to talk equality, let's just get that one right in the open. All people are slime, regardless of gender. Me included. We hurt one another for the silliest of reasons, and I don't see that ever changing for anyone. My task: start deflecting blows instead of absorbing them.


----------



## Marduk

LaundryMan said:


> Don't forget spiteful, manipulative, unforgiving, angry, prejudiced, and self-serving...just like men are. If we're going to talk equality, let's just get that one right in the open. All people are slime, regardless of gender. Me included. We hurt one another for the silliest of reasons, and I don't see that ever changing for anyone. My task: start deflecting blows instead of absorbing them.


All people are capable of great highs and low lows. 

Which do you want to be?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

I guess my point is that men and women are more alike than they are unlike. 

But those differences... Can be delicious. Or scary. 

Depends on your perspective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen

always_alone said:


> IMHO, these are the more common complaints expressed by women. I too never heard women complaining about a man not being "man enough" until I came to TAM. Never.


What's there to complain about if you simply don't date them, or when they are dated or wed, are cheated on? And sometimes a woman doesn't discover that she's, on some level, repulsed by too nice of a guy until after they're together. He's great, he's everything she's been taught a woman wants, and yet her attraction to him wanes and her libido dries up. 

This isn't universal, of course. But there is a huge industry catering to "nice guys" for a reason. The whole idea that they finish last isn't coming from nowhere. Every single bonafide "nice guy" I know, even some of the very conventionally attractive ones, have struggled with women thinking they're perfect guys...for someone else. And I'm not talking about the insidious, fake nice guy who does it just to get a woman, I'm talking genuinely very kind, sensitive, good guys. Meanwhile more rough around the edges, traditionally masculine men rarely have problems attracting women. I know a lot of people, and trust me, none of the men who are more gruff are alone for long (though they often struggle in relationships for different reasons).


I don't like using the whole beta/alpha phrases. There is nothing wrong with the incredible qualities often associated with "beta" men. And, of course, there is someone out there for everyone. But if we're trying to skew for as broad an audience as possible, it helps to be well rounded.

Most people, even ones who exclusively are attracted to the same sex, aren't interested in partners who mirror them. Most long for someone who respects them, yes, and with whom they share a common value system and life perspective. But the draw toward a partner often is rooted in that something, that other, that provides just enough alien other, that mystery, to keep us intrigued. It's the difference between being drawn to a person as a lover vs just as a good, supportive friend. 

This is why even the OP's strident, social activist, feminist girlfriend labeled him a "p*ssy". Our politics, and even our intellectual preferences, don't always line up with our true, gut level attractions.


----------



## LaundryMan

jaquen said:


> Most people, even ones who exclusively are attracted to the same sex, aren't interested in partners who mirror them. Most long for someone who respects them, yes, and with whom they share a common value system and life perspective. But the draw toward a partner often is rooted in that something, that other, that provides just enough alien other, that mystery, to keep us intrigued. It's the difference between being drawn to a person as a lover vs just as a good, supportive friend.
> 
> This is why even the OP's strident, social activist, feminist girlfriend labeled him a "p*ssy". Our politics, and even our intellectual preferences, don't always line up with our true, gut level attractions.


We can definitely agree on this point! She was very much like me and that relationship was dysfunctional in a totally different way than my current marriage. (I wouldn't call her "strident", but that's irrelevant).


----------



## Marduk

Listen, man.

This whole thread started with you saying you were too beta.

What I see is passiveness and fear and self-loathing.

So are you willing to change or not?

Or are you just looking for some of the nice ladies here on TAM to just pat you on your head and say "there, there, dear. You're such a nice boy. I wish everyone would see that."

You spin and you spin and you spin...

Well, I guess, just like your laundry on the spin cycle.


----------



## LaundryMan

jaquen said:


> What's there to complain about if you simply don't date them, or when they are dated or wed, are cheated on? And sometimes a woman doesn't discover that she's, on some level, repulsed by too nice of a guy until after they're together. He's great, he's everything she's been taught a woman wants, and yet her attraction to him wanes and her libido dries up.


Okay, this is something I hadn't considered. People don't always like what they think they'll like. You're right.

Or, annoyingly to me, people often claim to like what they think they're supposed to like. I've sure been guilty of this. It's one of the reasons I second-guess everyone on everything.


----------



## Cynthia

marduk said:


> Listen, man.
> 
> This whole thread started with you saying you were too beta.
> 
> What I see is passiveness and fear and self-loathing.
> 
> So are you willing to change or not?


Exactly. It's not complicated. You don't have to hate yourself. You really do not. And you can find the good in people. There are many people trying to do the right thing and to be their best selves.
You will find what you are looking for. It is so much more pleasant to look for the good.
We see most clearly that which we are focused on. If you are focused on the negative, you will be overcome with it. You can choose to focus on what is good, right, lovely, etc. and you will have a much healthier perspective. Sure it's important not to ignore things that need to be addressed, even if they are negative, but if that's your whole life you will have a negative life. You choose.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Hey LM... I know I said I would be back to give thoughts and right now I am just not much in a mood to think, write, talk. When I get like that I short change the effort. Will be back when I can. Sorry..


----------



## I Don't Know

LaundryMan said:


> Then WHY WHY WHY WHY do we NEVER hear women complaining about the men in their lives being too womanly? Honestly, apart from complaints in private from my wife and exes, I never once heard any woman say this until I discovered TAM. I hear "he just won't put down the remote control and listen to me" and "he doesn't even know how to sweep the floor" and "he just jumps in bed and whips it out, how gross" every day, but statements like this have just been absent from the cultural dialogue in my experience. As someone else said, I am pretty poorly-socialized, but I can't possibly be so tuned out that I've missed half of all womens' opinions about men.


Because they don't stay with a man who is too womanly? 

Or..

Because it would sound strange to hear anyone complain about their spouse cleaning too much or being too nice?

I'd say most times the "too womanly" guy isn't in a position to be complained about.

Also zoning out on tv is not alpha or manly. Jumping in bed and whipping it out, although hilarious, isn't a manly way to initiate. Ok, maybe occasionally it is, but if that's the go to move then no.


----------



## LaundryMan

marduk said:


> Listen, man.
> 
> This whole thread started with you saying you were too beta.
> 
> What I see is passiveness and fear and self-loathing.
> 
> So are you willing to change or not?


What I want: to be right once in a while, and for others to acknowledge that. To have sex and enjoy it for me, not for just making my wife momentarily happy. To be able to demand something from a woman, get it, and not feel like I just punched her and took it.

But how? "Just do it" doesn't work for me. I need strategy.

The sex part may actually be the easiest. My wife has been out of town for ten days, and when she got back last night we had really good (by my standards) sex. I even did something I'd never tried before, and she went along with it. We fought again this morning, but, you know, baby steps.

But yes, I would ALSO like to be told I'm okay once in a while, not like I am now, but in general...by women. My experience has always been one extreme or another...women have either thought I'm a scumball because I could never understand the sufferings unique to women or that I'm a scumball for not declaring myself king.


----------



## LaundryMan

I Don't Know said:


> I'd say most times the "too womanly" guy isn't in a position to be complained about.


See, that's what I thought all along!!! But here I am!


----------



## Deejo

Requiring external validation is a symptom of your condition.

Why do you believe you need it?

Because you have always sought it by doing for others?

What is your medication for? Anxiety, depression, or both?


----------



## Marduk

LaundryMan said:


> What I want: to be right once in a while, and for others to acknowledge that.


Ok, you're right once in a while.

Feel better?

Why? Or more likely, why not?



> To have sex and enjoy it for me, not for just making my wife momentarily happy.


What would that look like? Feel like?
Does your wife know that?



> To be able to demand something from a woman, get it, and not feel like I just punched her and took it.


Start with a very simple word.

That word is "No."

Use it when your wife asks you to do something you don't want to do.


> But how? "Just do it" doesn't work for me. I need strategy.


--> "No."


> The sex part may actually be the easiest. My wife has been out of town for ten days, and when she got back last night we had really good (by my standards) sex. I even did something I'd never tried before, and she went along with it. We fought again this morning, but, you know, baby steps.


Groovy.

Do it again.


> But yes, I would ALSO like to be told I'm okay once in a while, not like I am now, but in general...by women. My experience has always been one extreme or another...women have either thought I'm a scumball because I could never understand the sufferings unique to women or that I'm a scumball for not declaring myself king.


What if I told you that every time a woman consents to having sex with you, hugging you, kissing you, or even being around you when they don't have to be...

It's because they think you're okay?


----------



## Anonymous07

LaundryMan said:


> Then WHY WHY WHY WHY do we NEVER hear women complaining about the men in their lives being too womanly?
> 
> I haven't been in a huge number of relationships, so with these isolated cases it was easy to tell myself that they were just being dramatic.


I see it as just part of the taboo subject that people don't talk about. 

For example: I've never discuss in real life how my husband is LD. It's just not something I feel comfortable opening up about because of the stereotype that men want sex 24/7. It would feel embarrassing to me and my husband(he wants to be seen as macho/manly). 

People want others to think that their husband is "manly", so they aren't going to complain or paint the picture of their husband being too feminine. That's not something most women will complain/talk about. It's another taboo area. 

Also, when someone tells you something, listen. What you've heard from your ex's was not dramatic and should not be seen as not important. They opened up to you, so listen and take note of what they said. Yes, a common complaint is that some men won't help out around the house. No one wants to do all of the chores, cooking, etc on their own, but no one wants the complete opposite either. There is a happy medium. Not demanding, but not a door mat either. 

There is no guide book for life on exactly how you should act. It's about trial and error, as you learn from your mistakes. No one goes through life unscathed, as we all stumble and fall, making mistakes and learning to get back up and move forward. If you let fear make you immobile, then you'll never truly experience life. At some point, you have to let go of your mom's hand and walk on your own.


----------



## I Don't Know

marduk said:


> What if I told you that every time a woman consents to having sex with you, hugging you, kissing you, or even being around you when they don't have to be...
> 
> It's because they think you're okay?


:FIREdevil: (that's my mind being blown)


----------



## Marduk

I'll take it further.

What if I told you that expecting women to like you just because you're nice, kind, give them things, and do things for them...

You're actually disrespecting who they are as a person?

Women aren't vending machines you put kindness coins into and get sex and respect out of.


----------



## LaundryMan

Deejo said:


> Requiring external validation is a symptom of your condition.
> 
> Why do you believe you need it?
> 
> Because you have always sought it by doing for others?
> 
> What is your medication for? Anxiety, depression, or both?


All right, maybe now I'm starting to get what you guys have been trying to say. It's been very hard for me. I'm sorry if it's been frustrating.

It's very, very difficult for me to imagine happiness without validation, because I don't think I've ever been happy without validation. Maybe in my career, but that might not count since I was brought up to believe that's just what you're supposed to do.

But there's a problem. You seem to be assuming that everyone has a right to happiness. That's a nice philosophical point to take, but nobody really believes that. If they do, why do we punish criminals? Why do we get angry or vengeful when someone does wrong against us? Why do we feel spiteful toward people who have wonderful things without ever having worked for them? Whether we admit it or not, almost all of us believe that people deserve happiness _when they've been good_. Not always and not by default, only when they've been good. Sometimes not even then.

So in essence you're saying I need to decide I have an unalienable right to happiness regardless of what others think. You'll have to do some talking to sell that idea to me. What makes me so freakin' special that I get to be happy when so many others are not?

The medication is for both. The depression is dominant. There have been times, off meds, when I've been unable to speak. But the good times are noticeably better without the medication. Still, I won't go off for fear of losing my job. Also the stuff I'm on now has truly horrible withdrawal effects (I discovered after going off it once before).


----------



## LaundryMan

marduk said:


> What if I told you that every time a woman consents to having sex with you, hugging you, kissing you, or even being around you when they don't have to be...
> 
> It's because they think you're okay?


I'd say you're being naive. What about all the women who have sex with men because they want to marry them for money, or are trying to manipulate them, or just want a babydaddy? The same goes for women: how do you know he's not trying to add you to the notches on his bedpost, or prove to himself he's not gay, or give him something to brag about at the bar the next afternoon?


----------



## LaundryMan

marduk said:


> I'll take it further.
> 
> What if I told you that expecting women to like you just because you're nice, kind, give them things, and do things for them...
> 
> You're actually disrespecting who they are as a person?
> 
> Women aren't vending machines you put kindness coins into and get sex and respect out of.


I don't expect that. And isn't that kind of what you guys are telling me I should be like: thinking I have a right to a certain level of compensation as long as I meet a certain minimal standard of citizenship?


----------



## LaundryMan

Anonymous07 said:


> At some point, you have to let go of your mom's hand and walk on your own.


MY mom's hand? I've been trying to do that since before I learned to walk.


----------



## Marduk

LaundryMan said:


> I'd say you're being naive. What about all the women who have sex with men because they want to marry them for money, or are trying to manipulate them, or just want a babydaddy? The same goes for women: how do you know he's not trying to add you to the notches on his bedpost, or prove to himself he's not gay, or give him something to brag about at the bar the next afternoon?


So, by your logic, because sometimes some people are manipulative, means that everyone is always manipulative?

Think about it again.

Think about your struggles to have sex with your wife just for you.


----------



## Marduk

LaundryMan said:


> I don't expect that. And isn't that kind of what you guys are telling me I should be like: thinking I have a right to a certain level of compensation as long as I meet a certain minimal standard of citizenship?


No.

Think about it like art. Something can be exceptionally well done, and I don't like it. As an example, I don't like landscapes, or nature scenes, or realism much at all.

It can be very well done, and I can appreciate that. But I'm not willing to hang it in my house and look at it every day.

Now, some po-mo impressionist stuff, now I can dig that. Even poorly executed, if bold, exciting, provocative, and interesting... that I will hang and look at for a lifetime.

Everyone has taste.

You can be really, really nice. And some people still won't like you.

Expecting them to is just disrespecting their individuality. So how nice are you really being?

Don't expect anybody to be anything.

If you want to be nice, be nice. Because it's what you want, not because you expect something in return.

If you want to be respected, do respectful things. Not to get respect, but because you think that's the right thing to do.

Or, you know, just figure out who you want to be, everyone else aside, and be willing to take the first steps in becoming that guy.


----------



## Deejo

You're missing the point entirely.

I don't care if you're happy or not. 
Nor do I think 'being happy' is a state. Happiness is transitive, just like misery.

I think what you should be shooting for, is 'satisfied with myself and my conduct.'

Which you do not seem to be. Nor is that a gift anyone here can give you.

Here is what I can tell you though; if you want to make changes to how you conduct yourself and your life in an effort to feel more fulfilled and satisfied, and you DON'T feel soul shakingly uncomfortable on the journey, then you're doing it wrong.

I say it all the time around here; nothing changes if nothing changes.

You will need to stop analyzing and DO. And in the doing you are bound to occasionally get it wrong, or feel very uncomfortable about it.

Here is a guideline; you know that guy that seems just a little too confident, almost arrogant or smug, with that fake smile, yet people gravitate to him and women laugh at his jokes and you just sit there wondering how can anybody fall for that absolute crap?

Try being him.

People love that guy. Including himself.

Be him if those are the kinds of interactions you want.

Else decide who you are ... and work at being that guy instead.

Whether or not people like you or approve of you is truly immaterial. It's incredibly liberating to make that realization. Because it's also pretty true that nothing is that absolute.

You think being a pleaser and approval seeker will make people respect and admire you ... and now you know that isn't really true.

So what makes you think that being confident, gregarious, and focused on going after what you want, inherently makes you a jerk?

That stereotype also isn't really true.

And even if it were, who cares?


We can talk about what you should or shouldn't do for a few hundred pages.

None of it matters until you choose ... and DO ... something.


----------



## StarTrekFan

LaundryMan said:


> What I want: to be right once in a while, and for others to acknowledge that. To have sex and enjoy it for me, not for just making my wife momentarily happy. To be able to demand something from a woman, get it, and not feel like I just punched her and took it.
> 
> But how? "Just do it" doesn't work for me. I need strategy.


I read your OP yesterday and I have been following it with lot of interest. Your writing reminded me of so much of myself. I am recovering nice guy myself . To address specifically to what you asked in the quotes, I have found helpful was to practice *"imposing my will on others"*

Now...I know that might sound like a horrible thing to do, but it not. I started this at home first with my wife and then slowly started this at work as well. At first , I felt horrible and mean for acting like this, then after a few times, it felt liberating

I started with small things, like deciding where to eat out, In the past, I would defer to my wife. Another instance would be what movie to watch, it used to be mostly Rom-Com, lately it's now super hero and science fiction movies. Couple of times, My wife said no, I went by myself. Like I said before, At first I felt horrible, when I did things my way, but it is crucial for any growth to happen. Positive thing about this was that this attitude started to spill into other areas of my life. It gave me courage to speak up at work to a somewhat domineering supervisor.


----------



## LaundryMan

Deejo said:


> You're missing the point entirely.
> 
> I don't care if you're happy or not.
> Nor do I think 'being happy' is a state. Happiness is transitive, just like misery.
> 
> I think what you should be shooting for, is 'satisfied with myself and my conduct.'


How about "successful in a relationship"? That works for me. I like female company, I like feeling like a partner. Clearly many people fail in their relationships, so being successful would make me feel successful and rewarded. I will not be able to do this by continuing in my passive conflict-avoidance mode. I'll have to be more respectable. Which means demanding things I should have and refusing things I should not have. What those things are depends on the partner, either the one I have or another sometime in the future. Sound reasonable?

Your post was one of the clearer ones I've received in this thread. Thanks, and thanks for putting up with my around and around thought process.


----------



## Deejo

StarTrekFan said:


> To address specifically to what you asked in the quotes, I have found helpful was to practice *"imposing my will on others"*


Serving the self. AKA being selfish.

The word gets a bad rap. 

Serving your own needs does not, and need not, mean harming someone elses.

But many guys, as you clearly indicate feel utterly ashamed of having selfish thoughts, without realizing the very behavior they are trying to avoid is done with the hope that they will win praise for it. Which is of course ... selfish.

Laundry Man you should likely familiarize yourself with the concept of covert contracts as well. Odds are you know exactly what they are, without being familiar with the term.


----------



## Deejo

LaundryMan said:


> Your post was one of the clearer ones I've received in this thread. Thanks, and thanks for putting up with my around and around thought process.


No worries. To be clear, yours is not the first case we have seen. And as you have already experienced, a number of other posters deeply identify with your words.

Be careful of labels.

"Successful in a relationship"

What does that mean? Does it mean if you get divorced you failed?

Does it mean if you aren't having sex 8 days a week you're not successful?

Again, step back and look at the big picture. MOST relationships fail. It is exceedingly rare that you meet, marry, and live happily ever after with the first person you ever become involved with.

Remarkably, we have a few here on TAM. SimplyAmorous jumps immediately to mind. Her marriage is loving, supportive, and admirable.

I don't measure the success of a relationship by how long it lasts. I know plenty of folks that have been married for decades and hate each other.

I have had some wonderful relationships that were measured in weeks, not years.

That may be someone elses benchmark for success.

It isn't mine.

You'll need to decide what yours is.


----------



## Cynthia

LaundryMan said:


> What I want: to be right once in a while, and for others to acknowledge that. To have sex and enjoy it for me, not for just making my wife momentarily happy. To be able to demand something from a woman, get it, and not feel like I just punched her and took it.
> 
> But how? "Just do it" doesn't work for me. I need strategy.


In a healthy relationship, both husband and wife are looking out for each other's interests. It's not about who is right or who is wrong. It is about coming to a point of unity where you are both there for each other and the relationship, rather than two opposing forces trying to win over the other. That is an extremely unhealthy dynamic where no one is happy. 
Start by seeking to do what is best for your well-being and the well being of those you are interacting with. Seek to be a man of integrity who is not seeking to be right in someone else's eyes, but to be a loving, kind person, but also a person who has values, ideals, and morals that you are willing to stand firm in for the principle of things. Those principles should be to honor and love others and to love yourself as a person of honor and value.


----------



## LaundryMan

Deejo said:


> "Successful in a relationship"
> 
> What does that mean? Does it mean if you get divorced you failed?
> 
> Does it mean if you aren't having sex 8 days a week you're not successful?


That both of us would rather be together than apart most of the time. That sounds really modest but if you think about it, it's pretty ambitious, at least for someone like me. I had a bit of dread when my wife was on her way home yesterday, because I knew the first thing she would do is go crazy on me for how "dirty" the house was. (and she did, even though I cleaned up a bit beforehand.) Not having moments of dread like that would be fantastic. I suspect my parents dreaded each other's presence all the time.

I can think of one specific thing that would make me feel very successful in a relationship, but I'd rather not talk about it and anyway it cannot possibly happen.

OT: this is probably the most male-dominated thread ever posted in the womens' group.


----------



## Cynthia

LaundryMan said:


> That both of us would rather be together than apart most of the time. That sounds really modest but if you think about it, it's pretty ambitious, at least for someone like me. I had a bit of dread when my wife was on her way home yesterday, because I knew the first thing she would do is go crazy on me for how "dirty" the house was. (and she did, even though I cleaned up a bit beforehand.) Not having moments of dread like that would be fantastic. I suspect my parents dreaded each other's presence all the time.


I thought your wife got angry when you cleaned. Why was she angry?



LaundryMan said:


> I can think of one specific thing that would make me feel very successful in a relationship, but I'd rather not talk about it and anyway it cannot possibly happen.


 So you set an impossible goal for what you think will make you successful. How is that healthy? It puts you a position where you never feel that you be successful.


LaundryMan said:


> OT: this is probably the most male-dominated thread ever posted in the womens' group.


And you are relating to them and learning from them. Imagine that. That right there is a step in the right direction.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I would jump in on your thread more LM, but really until you find a way to stop hating yourself, nothing any of us says is going to get through to you.

The most basic piece of feedback I can give you, is that you are going to have to do something a LOT of people like you have had to do, and that is: You're going to have to realize that your mother had it all wrong, and that she was a bitter, negative person, and that the way she shaped your mind was emotional abuse.

Once you can finally get your mind around that, you can start to gain control over the thoughts she planted in your head. This is the only place you can start, because what YOU think about is the only thing any of us ever have total control over (as adults).


----------



## LaundryMan

CynthiaDe said:


> I thought your wife got angry when you cleaned. Why was she angry?


Because she's ALWAYS angry about something. This will have to come up in MC this weekend at our second session. She has massive anger management problems and refuses to admit it.



CynthiaDe said:


> So you set an impossible goal for what you think will make you successful. How is that healthy? It puts you a position where you never feel that you be successful.


I'm not setting it as a goal! It's just one thing I had in mind that would be nice.



CynthiaDe said:


> And you are relating to them and learning from them. Imagine that. That right there is a step in the right direction.


I still think it's odd that a woman would say this, but I'll take the compliment.


----------



## LaundryMan

Faithful Wife said:


> I would jump in on your thread more LM, but really until you find a way to stop hating yourself, nothing any of us says is going to get through to you.
> 
> The most basic piece of feedback I can give you, is that you are going to have to do something a LOT of people like you have had to do, and that is: You're going to have to realize that your mother had it all wrong, and that she was a bitter, negative person, and that the way she shaped your mind was emotional abuse.
> 
> Once you can finally get your mind around that, you can start to gain control over the thoughts she planted in your head. This is the only place you can start, because what YOU think about is the only thing any of us ever have total control over (as adults).


I don't want to put too much of this on my mother. She's said things that haunt me each and every day, and I would be perfectly fine if I never spoke to her again (in fact I'd probably like that). But I have to take responsibility for this situation, because as you said I'm the only one who has control over what I think. I could have started questioning all these assumptions years ago but I never did, because of stubbornness, fear, peer pressure, too many other things on my mind, etc. That's my fault. I don't think it's self-hating to say so, it's just stating the facts. I should be doing something about it. That's also stating the fact.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I really don't think you will be able to actually let go of those thoughts that are problematic, until you can see how abusive it was for your mother to tell you that men are despicable pieces of crap.

Do you have sons?

If you do, do you tell them that they are despicable?

If not, you will do this, if you don't realize what your mother did to you and understand it. It doesn't mean you need to bring her into your process, but unless you see it for what is it, you will repeat it over and over.


----------



## Cynthia

It appears that your self hatred is coming from you thinking your desires and needs are bad. Having desires and needs is not bad unless they are abusive towards someone else. Part of the problem seems to be that you believe if you want anything that involves someone else that you are being unreasonable and therefore are a bad person. This is not true. If this were true, no one would be happy at any time. All of us have needs and desires. Many of these needs and desires involve other people. It is normal and right that this should be so, because we are designed to work best in positive relationships.
Positive relationships happen when people are helping each other get their needs and desires met in a loving manner that is honoring to both parties. You know this, but somehow are believing that it's not true for you, because somehow you have learned that your needs and desires are a problem rather than a normal part of human existence.
If you recognize and embrace the fact that you have healthy needs and desires, you can begin to make progress. You might want to read His Needs, Her Needs, by William Harley. http://www.amazon.com/His-Needs-Her...428532047&sr=1-1&keywords=his+needs+her+needs
This book helps couples to examine their needs. Each of us has legitimate needs. Please allow yourself to find and acknowledge what your needs are and embrace them as normal. Needs are healthy. Not all desires are healthy, but needs are something that we must have to be healthy, so they are by definition healthy.


----------



## Faithful Wife

LaundryMan said:


> Because she's ALWAYS angry about something. This will have to come up in MC this weekend at our second session. She has massive anger management problems and refuses to admit it.


Seems like you married your mother, to me.

If you can wrap your mind around the idea that most of us do follow relationship patterns that help us work out our issues...you can see how and why you would end up with someone who helps you live out your world view. Your wife makes you cower and act like the piece of crap you think all men are.

If this really were just her anger issue, then you'd have no problem disengaging from her anger. You'd see it as HER problem and not take on the emotional burden of it yourself. When we are healthy and not co addicted or co dependent, we don't feel blown around by the strong emotions of other people.


----------



## Fozzy

Deejo said:


> It is exceedingly rare that you meet, marry, and live happily ever after with the first person you ever become involved with.


Challenge accepted.


----------



## LaundryMan

Faithful Wife said:


> Seems like you married your mother, to me.


No, no. My wife is much angrier than my mom ever was, and far less bitter about life in general. My mother had the sort of long-term internal anger that she blamed on others (the men in her life, her parents) but I'm pretty sure was really at herself. My wife is reasonably satisfied with herself but just shoots through the roof when we run out of milk. 

My wife has actually said many of the things you've said about my mom (they don't like each other very much, but who cares what my mom thinks). The problem with my wife is she doesn't make me feel any better. Her attitude is "just don't be like that." Well, I'm sorry, but until extremely recently (like, this year) it was inconceivable to me that any woman with children would have sex voluntarily. You don't just stop thinking things like that.

To answer the question from your other post, no I don't have a son. I have my stepdaughter.


----------



## Marduk

LaundryMan said:


> No, no. My wife is much angrier than my mom ever was, and far less bitter about life in general. My mother had the sort of long-term internal anger that she blamed on others (the men in her life, her parents) but I'm pretty sure was really at herself. My wife is reasonably satisfied with herself but just shoots through the roof when we run out of milk.
> 
> My wife has actually said many of the things you've said about my mom (they don't like each other very much, but who cares what my mom thinks). The problem with my wife is she doesn't make me feel any better. Her attitude is "just don't be like that." Well, I'm sorry, but until extremely recently (like, this year) it was inconceivable to me that any woman with children would have sex voluntarily. You don't just stop thinking things like that.
> 
> To answer the question from your other post, no I don't have a son. I have my stepdaughter.


Ask yourself why you're surrounding yourself with women.

And these kinds of women.


----------



## Cynthia

Some women love sex. Some women hate it.
Some men love sex. Some men hate it.
You have been believing a lie.


----------



## LaundryMan

CynthiaDe said:


> Some women love sex. Some women hate it.
> Some men love sex. Some men hate it.
> You have been believing a lie.


Yes, that's my whole point in this thread. But realizing it doesn't make it easy to understand or to accept. It would be far easier for me to go on believing that women hate sex, it exists only for the pleasure of men, and it is evil to ask for it because it is evil to put one out like that. Realizing it is just the first step.

That's why I asked where others draw the boundaries in my OP...to make it easier for me to step out of my comfort zone (that is, to take a step in any direction).

Update: good sex with wife 2 nights in a row. She asked if I was just trying to humor her. I said "would I have done it this way if I were just trying to humor you?"


----------



## Faithful Wife

I love sex. Have always loved sex. In nearly all of my relationships I have been the higher drive partner.


----------



## tech-novelist

LaundryMan said:


> I really don't want to drag politics into this thread, but this is a point worth discussing. My mom did fancy herself a feminist, even though she's basically a traditionalist and it's pretty easy to point out how many of her opinions were fundamentally anti-female. But you know what? Nobody, to my knowledge, ever challenged her on it.
> 
> Feminism is certainly healthier today. I work at a college, and a month or so ago, during our sexual assault awareness campaign, I saw a female student wearing a t-shirt that says "I (heart) consensual sex". That's something you never would have seen when I was in college. She would have been accused of being an apologist for rapists. Not by everybody, but by the loudest and shrillest voices.
> 
> Nice to see I'm not the only one who has noticed that publicly at least, women who complain about the super-masculine are far more common or noticeable than those who complain about girly-men like me.


That is because most women don't even think about "girly-men" as MEN at all. In fact, most women don't think about most men of ANY type at all, least of all girly-men.

Sexually speaking, most women think of only the super-masculine ones; that's why those are the only men they complain about.

This may seem very odd, but as an exercise, try to find a website where super-masculine men ("alphas") are complaining that women only go for the sensitive "girly-men". I don't think you will find one, since that's not what happens; it's exactly the opposite.

TL;DR: Watch what women do, rather than listening to what they say.


----------



## Marduk

technovelist said:


> That is because most women don't even think about "girly-men" as MEN at all. In fact, most women don't think about most men of ANY type at all, least of all girly-men.
> 
> Sexually speaking, most women think of only the super-masculine ones; that's why those are the only men they complain about.
> 
> This may seem very odd, but as an exercise, try to find a website where super-masculine men ("alphas") are complaining that women only go for the sensitive "girly-men". I don't think you will find one, since that's not what happens; it's exactly the opposite.
> 
> TL;DR: Watch what women do, rather than listening to what they say.


Here's the outlines of overheard conversations during my dating days:
"Ugh. That marduk's such an a-hole. He never does X and Y and always wants crazy things in bed."
"Then why do you keep sleeping with him?"
"..."
"So, what are you doing tonight?"
"... going over to marduk's place..."


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

LaundryMan said:


> Then WHY WHY WHY WHY do we NEVER hear women complaining about the men in their lives being too womanly?


Because most avoided the problem by breaking up with or not dating that guy in the first place. Most find that guy horribly unattractive, because even though you've heard complaints, many of these tightly coupled traits are intrinsic to healthy masculinity - a good proper, healthy male. 

*I think I know exactly where you're coming from though.*

I had a similar anti-male upbringing, although it wasn't spitefully mean as yours appears to have been. In my case, it was the result of being single mom's emotional outlet - her shoulder to cry on. So I was embedded with how terrible men were. As a child, you don't want to be the thing mom constantly complains about, so you model yourself to be the opposite man. A more feminine, sensitive, pleasing type. The man with traits she seems to approve of or want, but lacking a TON of context to those traits/wants. You become catering and unassertive. Literally afraid the judgment of women. And certainly, whatever you do, don't offend her or burden her with sex - if there's anything you learn, it's that all men are @ssholes who only want sex.

I modeled myself on her words, and lo and behold, I couldn't get dates to save my life. I regularly ended up the best friend rather than the boyfriend, because I wasn't "manly" enough to assert myself. I was careful to avoid offending or making any imposition upon her. I had to be nice.

I started breaking out of that thinking when I was in my mid/late teens. I'd like to say I recognized the problem and corrected it, but that wouldn't be true. I just wanted dates, so I started reading as much dating, game and socializing material as I could get my hands on. When I was first exposed to some of it, I felt like it was telling me to be an @sshole. It wasn't. Eventually it dawned on me. For all of my mom's complaints, she still sought out these extremely masculine men. @sshole after @sshole would come and go, and still she'd pick the same sort guy. Just as my reading revealed, my mom chased certain masculine traits again and again.

These men may or may not have actually been @ssholes. What I was hearing was only one side of the coin - the complaints, because she was rather isolated and had no adult to complain to. All of the failings weren't in the men, or even in my mom's choice of men... my mom failed me by venting her frustration over her failed relationships and dissing every single guy. No relationship could end without everything being HIS fault. She would regularly rewrite history, and all the glow she had for a guy during the relationship (he was perfect!), was replaced with vile at the end of it (he was the devil!).

Through a combination of dating advice, actively rejecting mom's opinion, and basically attempts to discover/accept my own masculinity, I eventually had a pivot of thought that allowed me to see the difference between masculinity and an actual @sshole. Not all the hurt my mom felt and expressed to me as a child, was actually some man being an @sshole. It was sometimes rather that things didn't go the way she hoped they would, I got to hear all of those frustrations, and remain perplexed when she'd subsequently seek the same sort of guy and rave about him for a few weeks or months until he too was labeled an @sshole. I was a victim of my mom's black and white thinking, and a sort of emotional incest. Bearing the frustrations and complaints of a highly emotional woman as a kid. The result was not having a clue about what healthy masculinity was, and feeling the need to suppress every bit of "maleness" to be liked by a woman. Remarkably frustrating, because virtually nobody wants that guy, and you figure that one out quickly.

My advice to you is this: actively seek to discover your masculinity. Actively reject your programmed assumptions about men, women and sex. Own your life and your true wants, **especially** those that you believe displease women - because that's what you're really hiding from - displeasing women. Do what you WANT. The mentality to have is - You want what you want, and you are who you are, regardless of whether they like it. The truth is, in all probability you'll still be a perfectly good person... and lo and behold, they'll even like much of what you've been indoctrinated to believe they hate. If you aren't false or mean or unreliable, and you handle your responsibilities - you aren't actually an @sshole. It's okay to be you, and your wants are just as legitimate as hers. Women aren't made of porcelain. They can handle your unrepressed self. They will make whatever judgments they will and these judgments don't define you. YOU define YOU.

I've expressed it before on this forum as "learning to be an @sshole" (to much criticism by those who can't relate lol), because until you make the thought pivot that allows you to accept your wants as legitimate regardless of what women think about them, you won't see it as anything other than being an @sshole. It's actually learning to be a whole male. There is some desensitizing that takes place, where you stop focusing so much on what sort of guy you think she wants you to be. Further down that road, you'll start to realize the difference between healthy masculinity and a real @sshole. A couple amazing things then happen - you'll begin to relate to other men much better because you'll lose the weasely/wimpy vibe, women will find you much more attractive, and they'll simultaneously become less demanding.


----------



## joannacroc

LaundryMan said:


> I'd say you're being naive. What about all the women who have sex with men because they want to marry them for money, or are trying to manipulate them, or just want a babydaddy? The same goes for women: how do you know he's not trying to add you to the notches on his bedpost, or prove to himself he's not gay, or give him something to brag about at the bar the next afternoon?


You don't know that someone isn't out to screw you over, necessarily, but if you approach EVERY partner like they're out to hurt you, that is not a healthy thing for you and won't get you what you want.

I think you need to do the gutsy (whether you see that as manly or womanly, that's really up to you) thing and start seeing a therapist. Comments like the above make me worry for you about your self loathing and lack of trust in the world. It won't be easy or quick, but like the career you are proud of building, neither is anything worthwhile.


----------



## jaquen

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Because most avoided the problem by breaking up with or not dating that guy in the first place. Most find that guy horribly unattractive, because even though you've heard complaints, many of these tightly coupled traits are intrinsic to healthy masculinity - a good proper, healthy male.
> 
> *I think I know exactly where you're coming from though.*
> 
> I had a similar anti-male upbringing, although it wasn't spitefully mean as yours appears to have been. In my case, it was the result of being single mom's emotional outlet - her shoulder to cry on. So I was embedded with how terrible men were. As a child, you don't want to be the thing mom constantly complains about, so you model yourself to be the opposite man. A more feminine, sensitive, pleasing type. The man with traits she seems to approve of or want, but lacking a TON of context to those traits/wants. You become catering and unassertive. Literally afraid the judgment of women. And certainly, whatever you do, don't offend her or burden her with sex - if there's anything you learn, it's that all men are @ssholes who only want sex.
> 
> I modeled myself on her words, and lo and behold, I couldn't get dates to save my life. I regularly ended up the best friend rather than the boyfriend, because I wasn't "manly" enough to assert myself. I was careful to avoid offending or making any imposition upon her. I had to be nice.
> 
> I started breaking out of that thinking when I was in my mid/late teens. I'd like to say I recognized the problem and corrected it, but that wouldn't be true. I just wanted dates, so I started reading as much dating, game and socializing material as I could get my hands on. When I was first exposed to some of it, I felt like it was telling me to be an @sshole. It wasn't. Eventually it dawned on me. For all of my mom's complaints, she still sought out these extremely masculine men. @sshole after @sshole would come and go, and still she'd pick the same sort guy. Just as my reading revealed, my mom chased certain masculine traits again and again.
> 
> These men may or may not have actually been @ssholes. What I was hearing was only one side of the coin - the complaints, because she was rather isolated and had no adult to complain to. All of the failings weren't in the men, or even in my mom's choice of men... my mom failed me by venting her frustration over her failed relationships and dissing every single guy. No relationship could end without everything being HIS fault. She would regularly rewrite history, and all the glow she had for a guy during the relationship (he was perfect!), was replaced with vile at the end of it (he was the devil!).
> 
> Through a combination of dating advice, actively rejecting mom's opinion, and basically attempts to discover/accept my own masculinity, I eventually had a pivot of thought that allowed me to see the difference between masculinity and an actual @sshole. Not all the hurt my mom felt and expressed to me as a child, was actually some man being an @sshole. It was sometimes rather that things didn't go the way she hoped they would, I got to hear all of those frustrations, and remain perplexed when she'd subsequently seek the same sort of guy and rave about him for a few weeks or months until he too was labeled an @sshole. I was a victim of my mom's black and white thinking, and a sort of emotional incest. Bearing the frustrations and complaints of a highly emotional woman as a kid. The result was not having a clue about what healthy masculinity was, and feeling the need to suppress every bit of "maleness" to be liked by a woman. Remarkably frustrating, because virtually nobody wants that guy, and you figure that one out quickly.
> 
> My advice to you is this: actively seek to discover your masculinity. Actively reject your programmed assumptions about men, women and sex. Own your life and your true wants, **especially** those that you believe displease women - because that's what you're really hiding from - displeasing women. Do what you WANT. The mentality to have is - You want what you want, and you are who you are, regardless of whether they like it. The truth is, in all probability you'll still be a perfectly good person... and lo and behold, they'll even like much of what you've been indoctrinated to believe they hate. If you aren't false or mean or unreliable, and you handle your responsibilities - you aren't actually an @sshole. It's okay to be you, and your wants are just as legitimate as hers. Women aren't made of porcelain. They can handle your unrepressed self. They will make whatever judgments they will and these judgments don't define you. YOU define YOU.
> 
> I've expressed it before on this forum as "learning to be an @sshole" (to much criticism by those who can't relate lol), because until you make the thought pivot that allows you to accept your wants as legitimate regardless of what women think about them, you won't see it as anything other than being an @sshole. It's actually learning to be a whole male. There is some desensitizing that takes place, where you stop focusing so much on what sort of guy you think she wants you to be. Further down that road, you'll start to realize the difference between healthy masculinity and a real @sshole. A couple amazing things then happen - you'll begin to relate to other men much better because you'll lose the weasely/wimpy vibe, women will find you much more attractive, and they'll simultaneously become less demanding.



LaundryMan ignore this, at your own peril. You will not get better advice, or more emotional transparency than this. 

This should be required reading for all men who've walked this, or similar, roads.


----------



## neuklas

Laundry - you deserve to be commended for your introspection. 

Having read through this, the issue I see (as a man) is that you've set up in your mind, or rather been taught, to associate healthy masculinity exclusively with traits modern society regards, somewhat rightfully, as negative and backwards. 

In this respect, your initial premise and, perhaps, your comfortable worldview is actually based on a false equivalency. 

For instance, the so-called right to happiness is not a reward for good behavior anymore than dejection is reaping the seeds of avarice and sloth.

Manly respectability, as you put it in a post on the prior page, is not achieved by "demanding things."

Masculinity, therefore, is not properly viewed as "might makes right" or a amalgam of character traits that allows a selfish individual to prevail in a zero sum game.

I do think, however, that you were conditioned to regard it as such. And to most of us here, that is lamentable.

Ask yourself: what does it mean to serve the self?

I would submit to you that serving the self requires an unflinching commitment to honesty.

Are you honest in all of your personal dealings? Are you honest in all of your professional dealings? If not, why?

To me, a masculine man of character places the trait of unflinching honesty in all things above all other traits. 

A good man does good because it is honest. A good man sometimes sublimates the self or defers gratification because it also is honest - maybe it's financial honesty, or honesty to a loving relationship, or honesty to a prior commitment - but it's still honest.

How do you draw the appropriate boundary? You draw the line when the action you are contemplating, or the action being requested of you, or the action you are being requested to forego, would force you to be dishonest with yourself or with others whose respect you value. And if that boundary is reached, you honestly and without malice say no and, as necessary, explain without vitriol or apology why you must decline.

The classical literary genre might describe this as a fervent commitment to protecting one's honor.

Is is no coincidence that honor and honest share root concepts.

I submit to you that the proper masculine man is, above all, an honorable man and that honor necessarily includes being honest and true to oneself, first and foremost.

Your struggle, then, necessarily requires you to come to grips with the fact that certain aspects of your conditioning have been dishonest and that, in a certain percentage of your interpersonal relationships, you have been dishonest with your partner and dishonest with yourself.


----------



## happy as a clam

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> ...I eventually had a pivot of thought that *allowed me to see the difference* between masculinity and an actual @sshole. Not all the hurt my mom felt and expressed to me as a child, was actually some man being an @sshole. It was sometimes rather that things didn't go the way she hoped they would, I got to hear all of those frustrations, and remain perplexed when she'd subsequently seek the same sort of guy and rave about him for a few weeks or months until he too was labeled an @sshole. *I was a victim of my mom's black and white thinking...*


Great post DA. Especially the above excerpt... Very introspective.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Finally getting around to sharing my first thoughts about your OP. I just applaud your seeking to construct a new life story. That truly is what you are doing. I had to do the same. I grew up in an abuse background and as an adult consciously made the decision to break the pattern and choose a different path, so the process to do that is very similar to what you are doing here and that first step is defining what that looks like for you. So I will take your original question first then add things later...

*What might make it easier is having some idea of where that line is drawn...where does strength become abuse, and where does sexual desire become sickness/control? That's why I started this thread. Ladies, where do you draw that line, and which side of the line would you rather have your partner err on? Those of you who identify as feminists, how do you square your need for strength and intimacy with your partner (assuming you have that need) with your desire to be in control of your own life? *

There are many resources on when strength becomes abusive. The book Boundaries is one of my favorites because it puts enough definition around the other person for you to begin to identify when you violate that person and really almost more importantly when you haven't. Another great resource is the book Emotional Blackmail since it will help you identify the patterns of emotional manipulation either in yourself or someone else that crosses the line into abuse. Abuse books help reveal that line you are curious about not crossing. You are seeking to increase your strength without crossing over into abuse. My ultimate favorite is the Bible. It is rich in truth about how a man should keep his strength, but not be abusive. It is also rich in that sex was created for pleasure and oneness and that enjoying your bride was completely its intended purpose, but the spirit with which it is done is very unique and seldom understood correctly. There is a sermon by Voddie Bauchaum that really explains it well and is rich in Christian marriage doctrine, don't let that intimidate you, but instead if you are researching ALL definitions regarding your role as husband I would be remiss as a Christian not to mention that as my husband engaged this defining doctrine and a personal relationship with Christ this past year, his transformation is MASSIVE. So I would want my husband to err on the side of Gods design, love, care and strength. Nothing else has worked so intensely for us. Here is the link... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcNUQduNiII

Enjoy..


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## LaundryMan

Thanks for the comment BL. I did read "Boundaries" years ago, and I guess it may be worth finding a copy at the library again. On the specific issue of crossing the line into abuse, it doesn't help that much of my bitterness gets labeled by my wife as "emotional abuse". I think the MC is supposed to help decide where that line is crossed so I don't end up trying to avoid a boundary that is set in the wrong place. But it's only been a couple of sessions so far so we'll see where it's going.


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## Blossom Leigh

LaundryMan said:


> Thanks for the comment BL. I did read "Boundaries" years ago, and I guess it may be worth finding a copy at the library again. On the specific issue of crossing the line into abuse, it doesn't help that much of my bitterness gets labeled by my wife as "emotional abuse". I think the MC is supposed to help decide where that line is crossed so I don't end up trying to avoid a boundary that is set in the wrong place. But it's only been a couple of sessions so far so we'll see where it's going.



Correct... accuracy is paramount in this process. My husband was notorious for lobbing false accusations in my direction. I learned how to beat my truth drum, not move off my truth, give kind but firm correction until he backed off. Over time he accepted the accuracies and truths and no longer falsely accuses me. Thats why I liked neuklas's post very much as well. Truth, its definition and ongoing accuracy is what will make this a success for you. Sounds like you have a good counselor.

Remember this... 

Accurately correcting your wife in calm firm loving truth is NOT abuse in any shape or form AND visa versa....

Another resource I learned a lot from to help me define unaccepable tactics and behavior was Out of the FOG - Personality Disorder Support. Those listed behaviors I chose to set boundaries against.

So I had an acceptable list and an unacceptable list and navigated boundaries between the two. Maybe this is where the book didn't work for you in the past. I wanted our home calm, loving, productive, constructive, peaceful and FUN... anything that worked against that I targeted with clear definitions and boundaries until it stuck. 

It was not for the faint of heart in my situation. It took intense focus and determination to move that mountain and also tons of courage in the face of fear, but it has been SO worth it.


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## LongWalk

LM,

I understand how you feel conflicted over approaching women for sex. This is built into the equation. Every act of sexual intercourse has the potential to impregnate a woman. In modern society the law states that men who father children are legally responsible. That guy who was shot in the back running for a policeman was a criminal because he was way behind in child support. He knew that he arrest meant jail.

In the eyes of some radical feminists he was a criminal who deserved to be shot. I realize that sounds like a bizarre statement but he was killed by agents of the state in an extreme expression of official policy. If it hadn't been filmed by a bystander, there never would have been an investigation.

So society does have extreme messages for men and women about what is okay. You cannot assume that the media is presenting positive masculine models. Much of the mainstream media puts considerable effort into trying to make people feel guilty about sexual and social opinions. I don't think that you should feel guilty about not having male friends, but it would healthier if you could.

If you had a lot of money, you could definitely benefit from psychoanalysis. 

You have had good sex with your wife. Keep doing it. After all some of the friends she has in the park will make a move on her sooner or later.

Why didn't you and your wife have children, may I ask? Are you afraid that you will traumatize any biological child you might have?

Do you exercise? That can help you work off anxiety and depression.


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## 3Xnocharm

LaundryMan said:


> No, no. My wife is much angrier than my mom ever was, and far less bitter about life in general. My mother had the sort of long-term internal anger that she blamed on others (the men in her life, her parents) but I'm pretty sure was really at herself. My wife is reasonably satisfied with herself but just shoots through the roof when we run out of milk.
> 
> My wife has actually said many of the things you've said about my mom (they don't like each other very much, but who cares what my mom thinks). The problem with my wife is she doesn't make me feel any better. Her attitude is "just don't be like that." Well, I'm sorry, but until extremely recently (like, this year) it was inconceivable to me that any woman with children would have sex voluntarily. You don't just stop thinking things like that.
> 
> To answer the question from your other post, no I don't have a son. I have my stepdaughter.


So, WHY do you want to stay with an angry, insensitive woman? Do you honestly think that changing things about yourself is going to make her non angry and turn her into a new person?? Because it WONT. Who she is as a person is entirely on her, just like it is for you. 

I am glad your eyes are opening to reality, instead of the messed up crap your mother made you believe. Think about this...what would bring you satisfaction with yourself and your life if you were completely single and living on your own? No wife, no girlfriend. What does that life look like?


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