# Declining oral sex after marriage



## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

My wife and I have been married for nearly 8 years. She is the love of my life. I'm not leaving her.

Now that we have that out of the way, I have a problem with the frequency of oral sex that I receive, which is bordering on none. We have sex 1-2 times per week. I'd like more but I can live with that frequency. However, sex is all that I get. If I'm fortunate, I might receive a handjob during her period, but anything beyond that is rare to the point of 'go buy a lottery ticket right now'. If I ask a lot right before sex she's usually willing to give 20-30 seconds of oral right before sex, but never as a standalone act. When we were dating and before we had our first child oral sex was a regular part of our lives. She did it reasonably often and almost always during foreplay without being asked. She sometimes complained it made her jaw 'pop', but otherwise seemed to enjoy it. She'd initiate, tease, get into it. However, after our first child it decreased in frequency a lot and for the last 3-4 years it's basically ceased entirely. Maybe once a year. Think it happened twice last year maybe?

Additional details because I know they will be mentioned or asked about:


I go down on her as often as she'll let me. To orgasm every time that she'll let me. (Though I'd love to give her multiples, she usually wants to end any sexual interaction after one orgasm. She says they tire her out.)
I'm a clean freak. I shower daily, shave, etc.
I've communicated this desire to her in every way that I know how. I've got a degree in interpersonal communication; I'm a talker. She knows I want it.
I do NOT force her, push her head, or in any way coerce her.
The sex that we do have is excellent, no complaints from either side.

Any married guys relate to this? Any luck finding a conversational avenue that leads forward instead of to frustration? I'm frustrated and desperately trying to avoid bitterness but I'm struggling.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> My wife and I have been married for nearly 8 years. She is the love of my life. I'm not leaving her.
> 
> Now that we have that out of the way, I have a problem with the frequency of oral sex that I receive, which is bordering on none. We have sex 1-2 times per week. I'd like more but I can live with that frequency. However, sex is all that I get. If I'm fortunate, I might receive a handjob during her period, but anything beyond that is rare to the point of 'go buy a lottery ticket right now'. If I ask a lot right before sex she's usually willing to give 20-30 seconds of oral right before sex, but never as a standalone act. When we were dating and before we had our first child oral sex was a regular part of our lives. She did it reasonably often and almost always during foreplay without being asked. She sometimes complained it made her jaw 'pop', but otherwise seemed to enjoy it. She'd initiate, tease, get into it. However, after our first child it decreased in frequency a lot and for the last 3-4 years it's basically ceased entirely. Maybe once a year. Think it happened twice last year maybe?
> 
> ...


As you are posting, you will get the criticism.

It sounds like you have a silent contract with her. You are a decent guy, who gives her oral sex, so you expect the same in return.

I would suggest that if this is the case you have a couple of options:
1) Tell her of your expectations. If she does not reciprocate, then stop giving her oral sex as you will start to resent it. This is to stop being passive aggressive.
2) Keep your silent contract secret, then stop giving her oral sex as you will start to resent it. This is to keep it passive aggressive.
3) Drop your expectations completely. Give her oral sex if you fancy it and not if you do not. If you do so, it will be gladly. This seems to be her approach and a perfectly reasonable one.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Ask her what's up?


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

This seems to come up all the time on this forum. Like the joke goes... "Why does a bride smile when she walks down the aisle? Because she knows she's given her last BJ!"

Most woman just aren't into oral sex. Or they aren't into their man. It sounds like yours just doesn't like giving oral and I doubt there is anything you can do. If I were you, I'd stop giving her oral and see if she notices.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Some women enjoy doing oral
Some women do oral because they enjoy pleasing their partners
Some women do oral to get a guy to marry them.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

And some women get lockjaw when they do oral!


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> As you are posting, you will get the criticism.
> 
> It sounds like you have a silent contract with her. You are a decent guy, who gives her oral sex, so you expect the same in return.
> 
> ...


There's no silent contract. I don't expect her to give them in exchange for anything that I do. 

She's not huge into receiving oral, either. She likes it now and then but mostly would prefer to have intercourse. If I stopped entirely she wouldn't care. I would prefer to continue giving her oral even if I never receive it. I do not resent giving oral at all and, in fact, enjoy it. To stop would be a lose-lose. 



GuyInColorado said:


> This seems to come up all the time on this forum. Like the joke goes... "Why does a bride smile when she walks down the aisle? Because she knows she's given her last BJ!"
> 
> Most woman just aren't into oral sex. Or they aren't into their man. It sounds like yours just doesn't like giving oral and I doubt there is anything you can do. If I were you, I'd stop giving her oral and see if she notices.


She wouldn't care, as addressed above.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

GuyInColorado said:


> Most woman just aren't into oral sex. Or they aren't into their man. It sounds like yours just doesn't like giving oral and I doubt there is anything you can do.


Don't mean to be argumentative here, but several sentences here don't jive with the real world. :grin2:

Where did you get the statistic that most women aren't into oral sex?

What do you mean there's nothing you can do? That's BS. There's always something you can do. I went from none in 25 years to several per week. I think many women are conditioned that it's not laldylike or that it's gross. You just have to work on changing these beliefs.


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

T&T said:


> Ask her what's up?


I have, many times. She doesn't really address it directly and gives generic feedback like 'I don't feel like it'.


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

Capster said:


> What do you mean there's nothing you can do? That's BS. There's always something you can do. I went from none in 25 years to several per week. I think many women are conditioned that it's not laldylike or that it's gross. You just have to work on changing these beliefs.


Thus the purpose of this thread. 

I don't think she thinks it's gross (has never said anything like that in over a decade) and it's not a ladylike thing (she's adventurous in bed). Trying to figure out the 'why' is my first step but not sure how to do it.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

GuyInColorado said:


> This seems to come up all the time on this forum. Like the joke goes... "Why does a bride smile when she walks down the aisle? Because she knows she's given her last BJ!"
> 
> Most woman just aren't into oral sex. Or they aren't into their man. It sounds like yours just doesn't like giving oral and I doubt there is anything you can do. If I were you, I'd stop giving her oral and see if she notices.


*In my dotage, I'm coming to the fast conclusion that the vast majority of women universally make use of premarital fellatio as a means of getting a guy of their choosing to the alter, and then after the vows are made, the rings exchanged, and the marriage pronouncement made; in that regard, they fastly and gladly shut their hubby's water off! *
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

Well, I waited over 5 years for a little oral at all, and probably closer to 6 for a full blown finish in her mouth BJ. 

Never stopped me from doing oral on her. I think I got as much pleasure from it as she did. I just love doing it! 
What changed her mind to the whole idea of doing me, was after I started doing oral on her even more, and even after sex. 
That, and I'd mention it now & then. 

Your results may vary......

:grin2:


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> Any married guys relate to this? Any luck finding a conversational avenue that leads forward instead of to frustration? I'm frustrated and desperately trying to avoid bitterness but I'm struggling.


Perhaps she wanted ideas one day and saw how oral is performed in most pornos. She thinks THIS is what you want and she feels it crosses her line into something she is not comfortable doing for you. (Imagine a woman with running mascara violently deep throating and drooling all over the place) She likely saw THAT thought to herself if her jaw pops doing what it is she does now, that if she tries what she just saw in the porn she may have seen you watching, that her jaw might get broken.

So here is what you do! Explain to her that she does NOT even need to take you into her mouth. Tell her she can use her hands and just gently lick you as if you are an ice cream cone!










Take her out for an ice cream and allow her to practice on that instead of you to build her confidence while you compliment her to no end about how sexy she looks eating ice cream!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

I figure it could be many things. People change. I used to love to play golf. Now I play maybe once a year, maybe. If you had told me 20 years ago that I would grow to dislike golf, I would have told you that you were crazy.

The BJ is a VERY personal act of giving. If the one giving feels any resentment or animosity toward the other, the act is going to wane. I had some anger issues and was not alpha enough for my wife. I changed and the BJ's got better and more frequent. 

Also, in my opinion, offering such a selfless gift should require much positive feedback from the receiver. I currently make certain I give my wife as much positive feedback as possible to reinforce her efforts.

It is working.


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

UMP said:


> I figure it could be many things. People change. I used to love to play golf. Now I play maybe once a year, maybe. If you had told me 20 years ago that I would grow to dislike golf, I would have told you that you were crazy.
> 
> The BJ is a VERY personal act of giving. If the one giving feels any resentment or animosity toward the other, the act is going to wane. I had some anger issues and was not alpha enough for my wife. I changed and the BJ's got better and more frequent.
> 
> Also, in my opinion, offering such a selfless gift should require much positive feedback from the receiver. I currently make certain I give my wife as much positive feedback as possible to reinforce her efforts.


I have given and would continue to give positive feedback if the opportunity presented itself. Can't give positive feedback about what someone is doing if they don't do it!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Why do you say she's adventurous in bed?

It's an odd comment from someone who says he's lucky to get a handjob during her period. 




fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> Thus the purpose of this thread.
> 
> I don't think she thinks it's gross (has never said anything like that in over a decade) and it's not a ladylike thing (she's adventurous in bed). Trying to figure out the 'why' is my first step but not sure how to do it.


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

Lurkster said:


> What changed her mind to the whole idea of doing me, was after I started doing oral on her even more...


Maybe I'll be more proactive with my efforts on her. I volunteer often but she almost always declines. Maybe I should press the issue a bit more.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Perhaps she wanted ideas one day and saw how oral is performed in most pornos. She thinks THIS is what you want and she feels it crosses her line into something she is not comfortable doing for you. (Imagine a woman with running mascara violently deep throating and drooling all over the place) She likely saw THAT thought to herself if her jaw pops doing what it is she does now, that if she tries what she just saw in the porn she may have seen you watching, that her jaw might get broken.
> 
> So here is what you do! Explain to her that she does NOT even need to take you into her mouth. Tell her she can use her hands and just gently lick you as if you are an ice cream cone!
> 
> ...


*Would you terribly mind if I came over to your table to sit down and watch?*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

MEM11363 said:


> Why do you say she's adventurous in bed?
> 
> It's an odd comment from someone who says he's lucky to get a handjob during her period.


She's adventurous during sex is what I mean. Fantasies, positions, positional straps, etc.


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## bankshot1993 (Feb 10, 2014)

Yep @arbitrator has it pretty much right on for the most part. During courting women are certainly a lot more adventurous and open in the bedroom. This is all part in parcel with attracting a desired mate/partner. Once the commitments are made the extra effort to impress stops. You have joined the other 2 or 3 billion other married men in the world that aren't getting oral, welcome to the club.

I fought the same battle with my wife of now 29 years quite some time ago and frankly it wasn't worth it. Eventually I got her to the point that she was willing to indulge me every now and then but just like duty sex, a duty BJ done with all the passion and enthusiasm as one does dishes with is just not something worth fighting for.

It got to the point where I stopped letting her do it because it was so obvious that she wasn't enjoying doing it that I couldn't enjoy her doing it. At the point that neither of you are enjoying the activity there is no point in continuing it, so I stopped her and now if she tries I tell her not to bother (not in those words of course).

I still perform oral on her every time we have sex which frankly isn't very often. I do that because she enjoys it and her enjoyment of it makes it very enjoyable for me, that's just the way I'm wired. The more she is getting into it the more I get out of it. Of course the opposite is also true the more she is doing something she doesn't like doing the less I enjoy myself.


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

bankshot1993 said:


> Yep @arbitrator has it pretty much right on for the most part. During courting women are certainly a lot more adventurous and open in the bedroom. This is all part in parcel with attracting a desired mate/partner. Once the commitments are made the extra effort to impress stops. You have joined the other 2 or 3 billion other married men in the world that aren't getting oral, welcome to the club.
> 
> I fought the same battle with my wife of now 29 years quite some time ago and frankly it wasn't worth it. Eventually I got her to the point that she was willing to indulge me every now and then but just like duty sex, a duty BJ done with all the passion and enthusiasm as one does dishes with is just not something worth fighting for.
> 
> ...


Yes, duty sex/BJ is not something I'm interested in whatsoever. 

I guess my main source of confusion is that I absolutely cannot relate. I truly get pleasure from doing things that give her pleasure, both in and out of the bedroom. I enjoy cleaning the house because I enjoy the fact that she's happy when she gets home. (I'm self employed, so I can clean during the day quite often.) I never really liked doing dishes until I discovered how happy it made her; now I genuinely enjoy doing them as long as I can listen to music or something while doing so. A couple years ago she confided that she always felt a little bit resentful that I pressed for kids sooner than she might have and that affected our ability to travel. That very day I started saving for and planning to take her to Paris. We went in 2013. It didn't matter that I cut back on my own wants, I enjoyed it because I knew it made her happy.

It doesn't seem like any such enjoyment exists within her. :crying:


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> Thus the purpose of this thread.
> 
> I don't think she thinks it's gross (has never said anything like that in over a decade) and it's not a ladylike thing (she's adventurous in bed). Trying to figure out the 'why' is my first step but not sure how to do it.


How about this:
Wife I love getting bj from you, but you say you don't feel like it. Please tell me exactly what that means. Do you not like it? Is it physically uncomfortable for you? I love it when you do this for me and want to know exactly why you won't and if there is anything I can do that will help you want to do this for me.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

CynthiaDe said:


> How about this:
> Wife I love getting bj from you, but you say you don't feel like it. Please tell me exactly what that means. Do you not like it? Is it physically uncomfortable for you? I love it when you do this for me and want to know exactly why you won't and if there is anything I can do that will help you want to do this for me.


Or the really tough conversation is if she doesn't want to please you and therefore doesn't enjoy it for that reason. Then it goes deeper than that. 

Or it could be that after a BJ, you'll want to have sex, too, which will take a long time to get to the second O and she really doesn't want 2 hours of sex.

But she's the only one who can give you an answer and it's probably not black/white.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I guess I'm a little confused. You say she's adventures in bed and sex is excellent but you're stinking about BJ's?

You go on to say that you go down on her all the time but she's not that info it. ... so why are you going down on her? Is that for her or you? 

Maybe your wife isn't that into oral. Period. It's not like she takes and won't give. Maybe she doesn't care for the fact that you know she's not even into getting out but push it anyway? 

Maybe you should stop asking. She knows you feel and if you nag her for it she'll just get po'd.

Enjoy the excellent sex you're getting, and maybe if you stop nagging she'll offer once on a while. 

I really don't get this entitlement to oral a lot of guys seem to have. I don't mind giving some but I have a very small mouth and my jaw pops so it's not that comfortable; hardly a good comparison for using your tongue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

The point is, you are not going to learn how to manipulate her into giving you bjs. You will have to really talk with her to find out what is going on and it may result in you getting what you want or it may not, but at least you will know what's going on and be able to move on one way or the other.


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> Maybe I'll be more proactive with my efforts on her. I volunteer often but she almost always declines. Maybe I should press the issue a bit more.


Mmmmmmmmm.....
I never asked, and still don't ask, to do oral on her, including the first time. 
For a while she was apprehensive about it, and often asked me if I really was OK doing that to her. Had to explain several times that I was more than OK with it, I _wanted_ to do it. _A LOT!_
I suppose that won't work for everyone, but did for me!

:smile2:


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't mind giving some but I have a very small both and my jaw pops so it's not that comfortable; hardly a good comparison for using your tongue.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Personal said:


> And some women get lockjaw when they do oral!


My wife is the same way, but she told me her issue.



> I have, many times. She doesn't really address it directly and gives generic feedback like 'I don't feel like it'.


"I don't feel like it" is in no way the same as "lockjaw" and "my jaw pops." He's a please her type of man so, it would stop the projected "nagging" if she said "it hurts" or told him her specific issue with the act. He needs to have a serious talk and she needs to stop giving him the brush off.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

F2H,
A couple general comments - no offense intended - this is merely unfiltered communication.

1. Unless you shower immediately beforehand - you might not be as clean as she likes. 
2. Is she 'vocal' in bed? Are you? Does she like/dislike that?

My experience with communications majors - is - their focus is oft more on transmission than reception.

There is such a thing as being 'too nice'. 
And such a thing as being overly talkative. 

The fact that - her desire to please you - seems to have declined - isn't good. The bigger issue is - the stonewalling. 

You ought to ask yourself - if she's doing that in reaction to you. 

And - cough - as for the folks claiming this is the norm - it depends on your sample population. 

In overall happy marriages - where it was part of the routine before marriage - it remains fairly common. 

A more general question is - do you get the general sense that doing nice things for you - makes her happy? 







fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> Yes, duty sex/BJ is not something I'm interested in whatsoever.
> 
> I guess my main source of confusion is that I absolutely cannot relate. I truly get pleasure from doing things that give her pleasure, both in and out of the bedroom. I enjoy cleaning the house because I enjoy the fact that she's happy when she gets home. (I'm self employed, so I can clean during the day quite often.) I never really liked doing dishes until I discovered how happy it made her; now I genuinely enjoy doing them as long as I can listen to music or something while doing so. A couple years ago she confided that she always felt a little bit resentful that I pressed for kids sooner than she might have and that affected our ability to travel. That very day I started saving for and planning to take her to Paris. We went in 2013. It didn't matter that I cut back on my own wants, I enjoyed it because I knew it made her happy.
> 
> It doesn't seem like any such enjoyment exists within her. :crying:


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Or the really tough conversation is if she doesn't want to please you and therefore doesn't enjoy it for that reason. Then it goes deeper than that.
> 
> Or it could be that after a BJ, you'll want to have sex, too, which will take a long time to get to the second O and she really doesn't want 2 hours of sex.


It's definitely not that second one! I've tried to have that conversation for years, it's just not one she is interested in engaging in. Don't know how to do more than I already have.



lifeistooshort said:


> I guess I'm a little confused. You say she's adventures in bed and sex is excellent but you're stinking about BJ's?
> 
> You go on to say that you go down on her all the time but she's not that info it. ... so why are you going down on her? Is that for her or you?
> 
> ...


She's adventurous in bed when we have sex once or twice a week (three weeks a month). I would like more sex than that. Rather than push her to have more sex I'd really like it if she'd just see my need for sexual contact and add a BJ or two a month. More would be welcome of course but just something to supplement.

I didn't say I went down on her all the time, I said I did it as often as she'd let me. I'd say once a month. I'd do it daily if she wanted it. She doesn't. 

Enjoy the sex I'm getting... should I apply that concept to her, too? When I don't do enough around the house should I just tell her to enjoy what I do do and get over it? C'mon, that's not reasonable.




CynthiaDe said:


> The point is, you are not going to learn how to manipulate her into giving you bjs. You will have to really talk with her to find out what is going on and it may result in you getting what you want or it may not, but at least you will know what's going on and be able to move on one way or the other.


I don't want to manipulate her. I want her to want to please me. I want to please her inside and outside of the bedroom, it seems like that should be a part of every relationship. No?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

arbitrator said:


> *In my dotage, I'm coming to the fast conclusion that the vast majority of women universally make use of premarital fellatio as a means of getting a guy of their choosing to the alter, and then after the vows are made, the rings exchanged, and the marriage pronouncement made; in that regard, they fastly and gladly shut their hubby's water off! *
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The vast majority, really?

Although I have only experienced two marriages, in both instances frequent fellatio did not decline following marriage.

Despite the fact my sample size is somewhat limited it is far from homogenous, since my wife and my ex-wife are of different nationalities, were raised in different countries, have different first languages (of which none are English), were variously younger or older than I and come from different ethnic plus cultural backgrounds as well. In fact The only things they had in common aside from marrying me and having my children, is that they asked me out/offered sex, are taller than me and were raised Catholic.

I wonder if this 'water' problem is a North American thing, or maybe tall Catholic raised women who pursue their men and offer them sex early make better sexual partners? :wink2:

Anyway @arbitrator I hope you have a great weekend.


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> My wife is the same way, but she told me her issue.
> 
> "I don't feel like it" is in no way the same as "lockjaw" and "my jaw pops." He's a please her type of man so, it would stop the projected "nagging" if she said "it hurts" or told him her specific issue with the act. He needs to have a serious talk and she needs to stop giving him the brush off.


I've explored every avenue of conversation that I can think of, this is my last ditch effort to get other people's ideas. I'm a good communicator, I listen before responding, and I can have an honest conversation without letting my emotions carry the topic. She prefers avoidance when it comes to difficult topics. 



MEM11363 said:


> F2H,
> A couple general comments - no offense intended - this is merely unfiltered communication.
> 
> 1. Unless you shower immediately beforehand - you might not be as clean as she likes.


I have tried that before and I consistently volunteer to do so immediately prior to.



MEM11363 said:


> 2. Is she 'vocal' in bed? Are you? Does she like/dislike that?
> 
> My experience with communications majors - is - their focus is oft more on transmission than reception.


She is vocal in bed and generally encourages me to be more vocal, although that's tempered by having two kids in the house. When the kids are away with the grandparents we are both vocal.



MEM11363 said:


> There is such a thing as being 'too nice'.
> And such a thing as being overly talkative.
> 
> The fact that - her desire to please you - seems to have declined - isn't good. The bigger issue is - the stonewalling.
> ...


Story of my life. 

To that last general question,... I don't get that sense most of the time, no. I know that she loves me (she encourages me, she compliments me, she works with me to make life work, and she always wants to spend time with me), but I don't get the sense that her making me happy is of importance to her. She wants me to be happy, she'd just prefer that I found happiness in my work or something outside of the 'bedroom'.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CynthiaDe said:


> The point is, you are not going to learn how to manipulate her into giving you bjs. You will have to really talk with her to find out what is going on and it may result in you getting what you want or it may not, but at least you will know what's going on and be able to move on one way or the other.


A good friend of mine one day out of the same frustration of the OP told his wife he would give her $100 for a BJ! She not only accepted and did it, but she said she actually liked that arrangement?????????

At first I was like WTF DUDE!!!!! ...but then when you think about it, that scenario DOES play very well into a kink for each of them to enjoy some realistic role playing! Some rather prudish women enjoy the excitement of doing something completely out of character. In this case his wife got paid, which likely made her feel that her skills to please him were actually valued! For him, he is a perv and the exchange of money was only symbolic since they are married, but he managed to have the "girlfriend experience!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girlfriend_experience

Badsanta


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> I don't want to manipulate her. I want to to want to please me. I want to please her inside and outside of the bedroom, it seems like that should be a part of every relationship. No?


It should be part of a marriage to want to please your spouse - yes. But if she refuses to discuss it with you and you have bluntly asked the questions and she is refusing to give you an answer, then the only thing left is to tell her that she has not given you any reason, so it appears that she simply is not interested in pleasing you and you'd like to know why that is. Again, you cannot force her to answer you, but you can ask and let her know that her refusal to discuss it is a problem for you. Do you have this issues in other areas of you marriage where she will not discuss things that are important to you and that she refuses to do things that are important to you?


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

badsanta said:


> A good friend of mine one day out of your same frustration of the OP told his wife he would give her $100 for a BJ! She not only accepted and did it, but she said she actually liked that arrangement?????????
> 
> At first I was like WTF DUDE!!!!! ...but then when you think about it, that scenario DOES play very well into a kink for each of them to enjoy some realistic role playing! Some rather prudish women enjoy the excitement of doing something completely out of character. In this case his wife got paid, which likely made her feel that her skills to please him were actually valued! For him, he is a perv and the exchange of money was only symbolic since they are married, but he managed to have the "girlfriend experience!"
> 
> ...


My wife and I have done that sort of thing, but not for cash, and it it's always just a 'starter' to get something going. 
You know, like, "sure I can do that for you.....but what does it pay?"

:laugh:


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> I have, many times. She doesn't really address it directly and gives generic feedback like 'I don't feel like it'.


You need to say "Hey, I really enjoy when you give me oral. It's very important to me. It bothers me that you don't do it anymore. Why is that"

If she says ""I don't feel like it" then you respond with "I'm not happy with that response. If something was important to you (feel free to mention something that she likes you to do), I didn't do it, you asked my why and I responded by saying that I "just don't feel like doing it" would you be satisfied with that answer?

If she says yes, then call her bluff.

Otherwise, ask her what the real reason is.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> Enjoy the sex I'm getting... should I apply that concept to her, too? When I don't do enough around the house should I just tell her to enjoy what I do do and get over it? C'mon, that's not reasonable.


Does your wife enjoy the sex she's getting?

Do you have an expectation that you ought to be sexually rewarded for the housework you do?


----------



## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

CynthiaDe said:


> Do you have this issues in other areas of you marriage where she will not discuss things that are important to you and that she refuses to do things that are important to you?


No.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> Yes, duty sex/BJ is not something I'm interested in whatsoever.
> 
> I guess my main source of confusion is that I absolutely cannot relate. I truly get pleasure from doing things that give her pleasure, both in and out of the bedroom. I enjoy cleaning the house because I enjoy the fact that she's happy when she gets home. (I'm self employed, so I can clean during the day quite often.) I never really liked doing dishes until I discovered how happy it made her; now I genuinely enjoy doing them as long as I can listen to music or something while doing so. A couple years ago she confided that she always felt a little bit resentful that I pressed for kids sooner than she might have and that affected our ability to travel. That very day I started saving for and planning to take her to Paris. We went in 2013. It didn't matter that I cut back on my own wants, I enjoyed it because I knew it made her happy.
> 
> It doesn't seem like any such enjoyment exists within her. :crying:


You a giver. She's a taker. Takers don't think like givers.


----------



## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

Personal said:


> Does your wife enjoy the sex she's getting?
> 
> Do you have an expectation that you ought to be sexually rewarded for the housework you do?


Yes, she definitely enjoys the sex we have. That's abundantly evident in both her words, actions, and physical reactions.

Absolutely not. I'm not a dog who gets a treat for housework. I enjoy doing housework because it makes her happy, I don't view it as a gateway to sex. If I viewed it that way I would feel resentful about doing the majority of the housework and I don't.


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> You a giver. She's a taker. Takers don't think like givers.


Hadn't thought of it like that, but makes perfect sense!


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I guess I'm a little confused. You say she's adventures in bed and sex is excellent but you're stinking about BJ's?
> 
> You go on to say that you go down on her all the time but she's not that info it. ... so why are you going down on her? Is that for her or you?
> 
> ...


Your husband used to spend lots of quality time with you but now usually spends his time drinking beer and watching sports.

Everything else is great in your relationship, but you miss the quality time you used to spend together.

Just be happy and accept it.

I don't get this entitlement to quality time that a lot of women seem to have.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lurkster said:


> My wife and I have done that sort of thing, but not for cash, and it it's always just a 'starter' to get something going.
> You know, like, "sure I can do that for you.....but what does it pay?"
> 
> :laugh:


My wife often gives me quotes she knows I can't afford!

:laugh:


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> Yes, she definitely enjoys the sex we have. That's abundantly evident in both her words, actions, and physical reactions.


That being the case have you asked her way she doesn't have sex with you very often?


----------



## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

Personal said:


> That being the case have you asked her way she doesn't have sex with you very often?


She just has a lower sex drive than I do. One to two times a week is what she needs. She enjoys sex when she's in the mood for it, but most of the time she gets just as much enjoyment from being close and watching a movie or doing something else together. We have limited time in the evenings together after the kids are in bed, so it's just a matter of priorities. I get up at 5am most days so it's tough for me to be up late and having sex makes her very tired afterwards so having sex immediately after the kids are in bed basically wastes what little time we do have together. This situation, to me, is why more frequent oral sex is the rare win-win-win. We have the amount of sex she wants without pressure from me for more, it can be done briefly early in the evening leaving more 'us' time which which prioritizes heavily, and I have the release/support/emotional benefits that it provides. But the only way that works is if she actually _wants_ that to happen. I don't know how to help her get from here to there.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> She just has a lower sex drive than I do. One to two times a week is what she needs. She enjoys sex when she's in the mood for it, but most of the time she gets just as much enjoyment from being close and watching a movie or doing something else together. We have limited time in the evenings together after the kids are in bed, so it's just a matter of priorities. I get up at 5am most days so it's tough for me to be up late and having sex makes her very tired afterwards so having sex immediately after the kids are in bed basically wastes what little time we do have together. This situation, to me, is why more frequent oral sex is the rare win-win-win. We have the amount of sex she wants without pressure from me for more, it can be done briefly early in the evening leaving more 'us' time which which prioritizes heavily, and I have the release/support/emotional benefits that it provides. But the only way that works is if she actually _wants_ that to happen. I don't know how to help her get from here to there.


Tell her exactly that and see how she responds.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Your husband used to spend lots of quality time with you but now usually spends his time drinking beer and watching sports.
> 
> Everything else is great in your relationship, but you miss the quality time you used to spend together.
> 
> ...


Poor comparison. 

My hb used to spend a lot of time with me which included watching chick flicks.

Now he spends great time with me and I love it, but he's decided he doesn't really enjoy chick flicks. I'm po'd because not only do I want him to watch chick flicks with me but I want him to enjoy doing it. 

You'd be ok with that? You wouldn't tell me to enjoy the fact that we do spend great quality time together? He should enjoy chick flicks because that's what I want? 

Note that the above scenario is made up, I don't care for chick flicks. It's just that this could be applied to lots of things, many of them sexual:what if it was really important for my hb to tie me up and I don't like it? Do I owe it to him because he wants it? Of course I owe him some kind of sex life because we are married but beyond that what specific acts is he owed? 

My point is that at some point we all have to ask ourselves if what we're asking is reasonable. OP's wife doesn't want to give bj's. So the consensus seems to be that she's just a selfish taker without regard to anything else, including the fact that shes adventurous in many ways, suggesting that bj's are in fact an entitlement. I don't know what to offer since he's already asked her why and gotten no answer. That tells me he expects a specific answer beyond that she doesn't care for it, but there might be none. Is a bj really worth blowing up an otherwise good sex life? 

At some point you really do have to appreciate what you have or nothing will ever be enough. 

Have you considered just trying for sex an extra day here and there? She appears to like sex. 

OP, as far as you doing housework because it makes her happy, would you explain what you mean? Housework is a joint responsibility because it needs to be done and you live there. Does your wife not work and thus there's an understanding that it's her job and you pitching in makes her happy? If not then you do housework because it needs to be done and you live there, not to make her happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> Poor comparison.


Great comparison, actually.



lifeistooshort said:


> My hb used to spend a lot of time with me which included watching chick flicks.
> 
> Now he spends great time with me and I love it, but he's decided he doesn't really enjoy chick flicks. I'm po'd because not only do I want him to watch chick flicks with me but I want him to enjoy doing it.
> 
> You'd be ok with that? You wouldn't tell me to enjoy the fact that we do spend great quality time together? He should enjoy chick flicks because that's what I want?


If he could articulate exactly why that change occurred, sure. The entire point is that she didn't always act the way she does now and that has created a problem. The original comparison was absolutely spot on.



lifeistooshort said:


> My point is that at some point we all have to ask ourselves if what we're asking is reasonable. OP's wife doesn't want to give bj's. So the consensus seems to be that she's just a selfish taker without regard to anything else, including the fact that shes adventurous in many ways, suggesting that bj's are in fact an entitlement. I don't know what to offer since he's already asked her why and gotten no answer. That tells me he expects a specific answer beyond that she doesn't care for it, but there might be none. Is a bj really worth blowing up an otherwise good sex life?


Did you read my OP fully? I do not find our sex life to be adequate as-is.



lifeistooshort said:


> Have you considered just trying for sex an extra day here and there? She appears to like sex.


I'd be satisfied with 4 times a week, which would be double what we're having now. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that level of increase in our current life circumstance. 



lifeistooshort said:


> OP, as far as you doing housework because it makes her happy, would you explain what you mean? Housework is a joint responsibility because it needs to be done and you live there. Does your wife not work and thus there's an understanding that it's her job and you pitching in makes her happy? If not then you do housework because it needs to be done and you live there, not to make her happy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife works full time, 8-4 during the week. I work full time as well, but self employed and get to make my own schedule during the week and I work Saturdays all day. I choose to stay home with our 1 year old a couple days a week because it's awesome to get the chance to bond with him and see him grow. On those days (like today) I do all the chores that need doing. On the three other weekdays I spend my break times cleaning, dishes, tidying, etc.

I don't 'do housework to make her happy', I'm 'happy to do housework because it makes it happy', do you see the distinction? I'm literally happy while doing housework. I smile, I enjoy the act of doing housework. When I was a teenager and when I lived alone afterwards, I did not enjoy housework. In fact, I hated it and did as little as possible. It's only now in marriage that I enjoy the act of doing it because of its effect on her. 

It's not the action, it's the attitude. I should do housework because it's a part of life, but I wouldn't otherwise enjoy doing it. 

See the difference?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
one response that can't really be countered is "I hate it and think its degrading". 






Buddy400 said:


> You need to say "Hey, I really enjoy when you give me oral. It's very important to me. It bothers me that you don't do it anymore. Why is that"
> 
> If she says ""I don't feel like it" then you respond with "I'm not happy with that response. If something was important to you (feel free to mention something that she likes you to do), I didn't do it, you asked my why and I responded by saying that I "just don't feel like doing it" would you be satisfied with that answer?
> 
> ...


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> one response that can't really be countered is "I hate it and think its degrading".


If that were the case it would have showed itself many years ago. She doesn't think it's degrading.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> Great comparison, actually.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So don't expect to pop from two to four times a week. Try to initiate a third time every few weeks and see how that goes, and if it goes well try to put that that third time in more often. 

Then if all goes well try to slip a fourth in now and again.

I've said my piece and it doesn't appear to be what you want, so that's ok. I only offer one woman's perspective. 

You can try the TAM angle of telling her what you expect and she's selfish. I can't imagine that will work but maybe it will. 

My last thought here is that I enjoy sex a couple of times a week. More than that doesn't give me recharge time, so I'd enjoy what I did have less. I wouldn't be opposed to having sex with hb a third or maybe forth time, but he'd have to understand that I may not be as freaky those extra times and it would be for him. If the relationship is otherwise loving that can be possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> She just has a lower sex drive than I do. One to two times a week is what she needs.


Oral sex is sex! If your wife only wants sex once a week, why on earth do you think she would be interested in providing as opposed to sharing more sex with you especially when it would largely get you off without getting her off?



fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> She enjoys sex when she's in the mood for it, but most of the time she gets just as much enjoyment from being close and watching a movie or doing something else together.


Just as much enjoyment! If that's the case perhaps you, she or the both of you are doing it wrong?



fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> We have limited time in the evenings together after the kids are in bed, so it's just a matter of priorities. I get up at 5am most days so it's tough for me to be up late and having sex makes her very tired afterwards so having sex immediately after the kids are in bed basically wastes what little time we do have together.


Waste? Sex often affords people a great deal of intimacy combined with plenty of verbal communication opportunities.



fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> This situation, to me, is why more frequent oral sex is the rare win-win-win. We have the amount of sex she wants without pressure from me for more, it can be done briefly early in the evening leaving more 'us' time which which prioritizes heavily, and I have the release/support/emotional benefits that it provides.


Do you really believe servicing you sexually more often in a brief and largely non-reciprocal manner when your wife isn't interested in sex very often, really is a win win?

Do you really think you're going to charm your wife in the long haul by expecting your wife to service you with her mouth without any significant reciprocation?



fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> But the only way that works is if she actually _wants_ that to happen. I don't know how to help her get from here to there.


I doubt your wanting her to give you one sided sex will get her there.


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> So don't expect to pop from two to four times a week. Try to initiate a third time every few weeks and see how that goes, and if it goes well try to put that that third time in more often.
> 
> Then if all goes well try to slip a fourth in now and again.


I've tried that, unsuccessfully. It'll be nice for a couple weeks, then go back to normal. It's not worth the fights that result.



lifeistooshort said:


> I've said my piece and it doesn't appear to be what you want, so that's ok. I only offer one woman's perspective.


You've been argumentative and a bit demeaning. You've used words like 'entitled' when I think that's the absolute furthest thing from what my posts evidence. Your opinion seems to be that I should, in essence, totally ignore what's important to me and work with what's important to her. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but the way you've expressed it makes it seem dismissive of me.



lifeistooshort said:


> My last thought here is that I enjoy sex a couple of times a week. More than that doesn't give me recharge time, so I'd enjoy what I did have less. I wouldn't be opposed to having sex with hb a third or maybe forth time, but he'd have to understand that I may not be as freaky those extra times and it would be for him. If the relationship is otherwise loving that can be possible.


If she doesn't enjoy it, I don't enjoy it. Obligation sex is not worth having. I'd prefer not to have sex at all if she doesn't orgasm (which is extraordinarily rare, she orgasms 95% of the time we have sex).


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Instead of asking for some oral sex, perhaps you might tell to your wife you want to share "regular" sex with her a bit more often.


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

Personal said:


> Oral sex is sex! If your wife only wants sex once a week, why on earth do you think she would be interested in providing as opposed to sharing more sex with you especially when it would largely get you off without getting her off?


1) I enjoy doing things I would not otherwise enjoy because she gets pleasure or satisfaction from those things. I always believed this was the nature of relationships.

2) I'd be happy, more than happy, thrilled, to reciprocate. Thrilled.



personal said:


> Just as much enjoyment! If that's the case perhaps you, she or the both of you are doing it wrong?


We're not.



personal said:


> Waste? Sex often affords people a great deal of intimacy combined with plenty of verbal communication opportunities.
> 
> Do you really believe servicing you sexually more often in a brief and largely non-reciprocal manner when your wife isn't interested in sex very often, really is a win win?


I believe that loving couples should want to do things to please the other person, even if those things aren't their #1 most favorite activity. Apparently you disagree.



personal said:


> Do you really think you're going to charm your wife in the long haul by expecting your wife to service you with her mouth without any significant reciprocation?
> 
> I doubt your wanting her to give you one sided sex will get her there.


Now you're just arguing. I never said or implied anything, anything, about non-reciprocal sex. I'd be happy to please her in ANY way that she wants. Sheesh, do you have some problem with me or with oral sex? Why are you so aggressive?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> Yes, duty sex/BJ is not something I'm interested in whatsoever.
> 
> I guess my main source of confusion is that I absolutely cannot relate. I truly get pleasure from doing things that give her pleasure, both in and out of the bedroom. I enjoy cleaning the house because I enjoy the fact that she's happy when she gets home. (I'm self employed, so I can clean during the day quite often.) I never really liked doing dishes until I discovered how happy it made her; now I genuinely enjoy doing them as long as I can listen to music or something while doing so. A couple years ago she confided that she always felt a little bit resentful that I pressed for kids sooner than she might have and that affected our ability to travel. That very day I started saving for and planning to take her to Paris. We went in 2013. It didn't matter that I cut back on my own wants, I enjoyed it because I knew it made her happy.
> 
> It doesn't seem like any such enjoyment exists within her. :crying:


You two are very different people with different likes and dislikes. You want her to behave like you. Trust me, this is a no win situation. You cannot change her. She is who she is. You are who you are. 

Communicate your desire for oral sex but don't let her lack of agreement to perform it ruin your otherwise good sexual relationship.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> one response that can't really be countered is "I hate it and think its degrading".


Yet, as was stated earlier, if she gave him a reason it would be a completely different scenario. 

Saying things like:
I'm tired.
Not tonight.
Leaves the door open for continued attempts.

Pointing out Specifics like:
It is degrading
My jaw hurts too much.
I hate the taste of sperm.
You are doing it wrong. 
Abuse issue.

Expalins and/or closes the door..




> My point is that at some point we all have to ask ourselves if what we're asking is reasonable. OP's wife doesn't want to give bj's.


 No, she doesn't give them at the frequency he wants. We have no clue, neither does he, if she doesn't want to give them or why.



> So the consensus seems to be that she's just a selfish taker without regard to anything else, including the fact that shes adventurous in many ways, suggesting that bj's are in fact an entitlement.


No, wanting a BJ from a wife who gives one is not an entitlement scenario. Wanting to know why the frequency is so low is not about entitlement. I never said she was selfish, I said she should give him a direct answer not the brush off which keeps him hanging on.


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

Lila said:


> You two are very different people with different likes and dislikes. You want her to behave like you. Trust me, this is a no win situation. You cannot change her. She is who she is. You are who you are.
> 
> Communicate your desire for oral sex but don't let her lack of agreement to perform it ruin your otherwise good sexual relationship.


This has merit in my opinion, with a caveat or two. 

Cannot change her? Maybe, or maybe she will just change on her own. People do ya know. It happened to my wife.
Certainly don't force the issue, but thoughtfully try regardless. Again, happened to me & my wife. 

If my wife had never done oral on me, EVER, I'd still be OK with it. We had a really good sexual thing before she ever did, and by reading much on these boards, a sexual relationship that many would die for. 

I led by example. As far as oral, she didn't, but I always did. She loves it, so I did & do it. I love to do it to her too, that helps a bunch.


----------



## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

Lila said:


> You two are very different people with different likes and dislikes. You want her to behave like you. Trust me, this is a no win situation. You cannot change her. She is who she is. You are who you are.


I do want her to behave like me, that's true. However, I do not agree that people cannot change. I am not the man I was when we were first married. I'm not the man I was a year ago. I'm changing all the time. Change happens when loving people listen, learn, and choose to become something more than what they are.



Lila said:


> Communicate your desire for oral sex but don't let her lack of agreement to perform it ruin your otherwise good sexual relationship.


I would not consider it an 'otherwise good sexual relationship'. I find it to be about half of a good sexual relationship.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> I do want her to behave like me, that's true. However, I do not agree that people cannot change. I am not the man I was when we were first married. I'm not the man I was a year ago. I'm changing all the time. Change happens when loving people listen, learn, and choose to become something more than what they are.


I didn't say that people don't change. I said that YOU can't MAKE other people change. They have to want to change. By the looks and sounds of it, your wife has no desire TO change. 



fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> I would not consider it an 'otherwise good sexual relationship'. I find it to be about half of a good sexual relationship.


That's not what you said in your OP:



fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> Additional details because I know they will be mentioned or asked about:
> 
> 
> I go down on her as often as she'll let me. To orgasm every time that she'll let me. (Though I'd love to give her multiples, she usually wants to end any sexual interaction after one orgasm. She says they tire her out.)
> ...


----------



## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

Lila said:


> I didn't say that people don't change. I said that YOU can't MAKE other people change. They have to want to change. By the looks and sounds of it, your wife has no desire TO change.


Fair enough.




Lila said:


> That's not what you said in your OP:


It is, although I may not have elaborated enough. Here's the other very relevant portion of my OP:


> We have sex 1-2 times per week. I'd like more but I can live with that frequency.


The quoted sentences were contingent upon this issue being improved. That may not have been clear.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Lila said:


> That's not what you said in your OP:


Well, we read that differently, but I'll see what he says as to not taint his response.


----------



## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Well, we read that differently, but I'll see what he says as to not taint his response.


Beat ya to it. :wink2:


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> The quoted sentences were contingent upon this issue being improved. That may not have been clear.


Well then best of luck to you. Hope it all works out.


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> So, do you think you can change to be what *she* wants? What if she wants you to want less sex? How easy would it be for you to pull off that change?
> 
> BTW, I'm not asking you in order to be argumentative. I'm just pointing out that your logic may not be making sense.


I have changed to be what she wants in every area that I am capable of changing and I will continue to do so (and continue to improve on my changes) for as many years as I am granted on this Earth. I'm not confident that I am capable of changing in a way that removes my desire to have a partner who enjoys bringing me happiness. I'm not sure it would be healthy to change in that way, regardless.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> 1) I enjoy doing things I would not otherwise enjoy because she gets pleasure or satisfaction from those things. I always believed this was the nature of relationships.
> 
> 2) I'd be happy, more than happy, thrilled, to reciprocate. Thrilled.
> 
> ...


You've just attributed a bunch of stuff to me that I didn't post.

Wanted to point that out, since I didn't say anything in this quoted post.

As for me being argumentative, I've got not dog in this fight so I've got no reason to be. 

You, otoh, have argued with every post that doesn't paint your wife as selfish and you as the victim of her selfishness. 

Maybe you are, it's tough to say without her input.

Hope you find some way to resolve this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> No, you're reframing what I said. You want her not to just perform more sex acts, but to *want* to perform more sex acts. And you think she should be able to change in that way. Could you do the reciprocal? Not only have less sex than you currently want, but *want* to have less sex than you currently want?
> 
> Those are apples to apples comparisons. Just trying to help you see where the problem lies.


The desire to have sex _for yourself_ is controlled, in large part, by hormones. The desire to do anything, sexual or otherwise, in order to make someone happy is more firmly under our control. If I were asking her to want to have sex, for herself, that could potentially be unfair. Instead, I'm hopeful that I can find an avenue forward which results in her actually wanting to please me. 

The two things are not apples to apples.


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> You've just attributed a bunch of stuff to me that I didn't post.


I'm so sorry! Not sure how that happened! I edited my post to make sure you weren't falsely attributed.



lifeistooshort said:


> You, otoh, have argued with every post that doesn't paint your wife as selfish and you as the victim of her selfishness.


I haven't argued with anyone, except a little bit you and the poster 'personal'.

I have never asserted, at all, that my wife is selfish. I don't believe that to be true. She is a caring, giving woman who I am in love with. She's an amazing mother, gives beyond herself in her professional career as an educator, and overall an amazing wife. All those things exist in spite of this particular difficulty. I wish my wife no ill will and I don't resent her. I'm simply struggling to understand this issue. As human beings we frequently have difficulty understanding the behaviors of others when those behaviors do not come naturally to us. I, for example, do not understand struggling with alcohol addiction or gambling addiction or... whatever, because those issues are not ones I've ever struggled with or been tempted by. Same thing here. I desperately want to please her and so I struggle to understand why the feeling isn't mutual.


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> Okay, you would *think* that would be true, but in my experience, it is not true. You can probably explain to your wife in such a way that she can understand that you have a hunger for sex that makes your life miserable if it's not satiated. It will be hard for her to understand if she's never had that hunger go unfulfilled before (like most women), but if she loves you she will make an attempt to understand. She knows what it's like to be miserable from actual hunger for food so she'll probably get it. And she'll probably accommodate you.
> 
> But I have my doubts (based on my own experience) that she's going to be able to be convincing enough while performing to make you think she really is into it. She will probably try, because she loves you. But she won't fool you.
> 
> That's not to be interpreted as her not wanting to please you; she does, most likely. But it's really hard to be convincingly enthusiastic having sex when you have no desire for sex. So you'd have to accept that (unless she's a great actor).


The most depressing 10 sentences I've ever read.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Personal said:


> The vast majority, really?
> 
> Although I have only experienced two marriages, in both instances frequent fellatio did not decline following marriage.
> 
> ...


*In fact, I almost married a Catholic girl while in college! She made herself out to be a "moral girl" and I considered myself totally fortunate in only being able to have gotten to third base with her! 

She ended up turning me down because I was not Catholic! And in time, she married one and had herself a boatload of kids!
*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy2gether (Dec 6, 2015)

you want her to do it because YOU want it, regardless of if she does or not. Sorry but unless and until she has a desire to do it for you it just ain't gonna happen. the more you try to coerce her the less likely she is to give in. you cannot make someone want to do something they don't want, and if you did it would only serve to tear down and not build up your relationship. 

Just for the record my wife loves giving and getting oral. for us it is a multiple times a week(often few times a day) thing. yes there are times she does it just because she knows I want a bj, and I can tell when she is not really into it. in those cases it feels no better than had I just masturbated, glad they are rare.


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

happy2gether said:


> you want her to do it because YOU want it, regardless of if she does or not. Sorry but unless and until she has a desire to do it for you it just ain't gonna happen. the more you try to coerce her the less likely she is to give in. you cannot make someone want to do something they don't want, and if you did it would only serve to tear down and not build up your relationship.


I'm forced to assume that you did not read through the thread entirely. I absolutely do NOT want her to do it if she doesn't want to. I've stated that plainly several times. I'd rather her not do it at all than do it if she doesn't want to.



happy2gether said:


> Just for the record my wife loves giving and getting oral. for us it is a multiple times a week(often few times a day) thing. yes there are times she does it just because she knows I want a bj, and I can tell when she is not really into it. in those cases it feels no better than had I just masturbated, glad they are rare.


I'm not sure how to respond to that. It feels like salt.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> 1) I enjoy doing things I would not otherwise enjoy because she gets pleasure or satisfaction from those things. I always believed this was the nature of relationships.


So how is that thinking working out for you?



fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> 2) I'd be happy, more than happy, thrilled, to reciprocate. Thrilled.


Do you tell your wife this?



fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> We're not.


Terrific.



fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> I believe that loving couples should want to do things to please the other person, even if those things aren't their #1 most favorite activity. Apparently you disagree.


Not really, no doubt there are occasions when such an approach works well and other occasions when it doesn't.



fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> Now you're just arguing. I never said or implied anything, anything, about non-reciprocal sex. I'd be happy to please her in ANY way that she wants.


Yet you wrote the following, which hardly describes sexual reciprocity.



fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> This situation, to me, is why more frequent oral sex is the rare win-win-win. We have the amount of sex she wants without pressure from me for more, it can be done briefly early in the evening leaving more 'us' time which which prioritizes heavily, and I have the release/support/emotional benefits that it provides.


...



fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> Sheesh, do you have some problem with me or with oral sex? Why are you so aggressive?


I don't have a problem with you at all, in fact I think it's a shame you find yourself in this predicament and wish you better fortune than you have had.

That said with all that you have written so far, I'm not even slightly surprised to read that you don't get a lot of regular sex and oral sex is even more infrequent.

Since as always I get to enjoy oral sex with immense frequency, I don't think I have a problem with it.

Aggression! If you like I'm happy to ignore the bleedin' obvious, sing Kumbaya with you and tell you there's nothing wrong?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Some people are bad at communicating. My wife for years never indicated that she disliked it - there would just be some minor excuse each time. When I let her know how much I enjoyed it when she did it on my birthday, she would say "I'm happy to". 

But - what really was going on was that she hated it and didn't want to tell me. 




phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yet, as was stated earlier, if she gave him a reason it would be a completely different scenario.
> 
> Saying things like:
> I'm tired.
> ...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> I have changed to be what she wants in every area that I am capable of changing and I will continue to do so (and continue to improve on my changes) for as many years as I am granted on this Earth.


Why?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> I'm so sorry! Not sure how that happened! I edited my post to make sure you weren't falsely attributed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No worries! I get enough crap for the things I do say, so I certainly don't need more for what I don't say 

I hope you guys can work this out. I think you may need to come to terms with the fact that your wife isn't you and isn't going to be. To ask her to enjoy it more often is the same as asking you to desire it less. .... it's who you guys are.

Could you square yourself with some extra sex that's just about you? You've said that you don't want sex she doesn't enjoy but you're also asking for one sided bj's, and to be honest I'm having trouble squaring that. 

It's not reasonable to ask her to enjoy the act if she doesn't, but it might be to ask her to enjoy doing something loving for you. If that's the case then how is one sides sex different from a one sided bj? Yet you're open to one and not the other. 

What do you think of that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

> My wife for years never indicated that she disliked it - there would just be some minor excuse each time. When I let her know how much I enjoyed it when she did it on my birthday, she would say "I'm happy to".
> 
> But - what really was going on was that she hated it and didn't want to tell me.


Yes and she finally told you so, you are reinforcing my point. Excuses lead to turmoil and issues like this one.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes and she finally told you so, you are reinforcing my point. Excuses lead to turmoil and issues like this one.


Well maybe he should talk to her again and make it clear that it's an option to tell him that. 

I can easily envision a scenario where she's afraid it would be poorly received and is thus afraid to tell him. 

If wants truth be has to be willing to hear whatever it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Well maybe he should talk to her again and make it clear that it's an option to tell him that. I'm not sure where the
> 
> I can easily envision a scenario where she's afraid it would be poorly received and is thus afraid to tell him.
> 
> ...


Yes, which is what me and multiple different people have said.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I guess I don't understand if your wife works until 4 and you make your own hours, why do the two of you have zero time in the evening that can fit some television/talking/etc time and sex?

What time do the kids go to bed?

Also, this whole thing about housework ... you stay home multiple days a week from work for that purpose. So are you doing that for her or to bond with your child? Because it seems like you want to say you are doing that for her in a convert sex quid pro quo, when really that's only fair if you are working less.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> one response that can't really be countered is "I hate it and think its degrading".


At least that's a real reason.

It's better than "I don't feel like it".

It wasn't degrading previously (unless it was, which prompts the question "why were you willing to do something degrading previously to make me happy but you are no longer willing? Not that I'd want her to do something I ?)now knew her to find degrading, but why the change


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> You two are very different people with different likes and dislikes. You want her to behave like you. Trust me, this is a no win situation. You cannot change her. She is who she is. You are who you are.
> 
> Communicate your desire for oral sex but don't let her lack of agreement to perform it ruin your otherwise good sexual relationship.


The problem is that there are two completely different people sexually:

His wife and who his wife used to be

That's the problem.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> Okay, you would *think* that would be true, but in my experience, it is not true. You can probably explain to your wife in such a way that she can understand that you have a hunger for sex that makes your life miserable if it's not satiated. It will be hard for her to understand if she's never had that hunger go unfulfilled before (like most women), but if she loves you she will make an attempt to understand. She knows what it's like to be miserable from actual hunger for food so she'll probably get it. And she'll probably accommodate you.
> 
> But I have my doubts (based on my own experience) that she's going to be able to be convincing enough while performing to make you think she really is into it. She will probably try, because she loves you. But she won't fool you.
> 
> That's not to be interpreted as her not wanting to please you; she does, most likely. But it's really hard to be convincingly enthusiastic having sex when you have no desire for sex. So you'd have to accept that (unless she's a great actor).


My wife enthusiastically gives me blowjobs because she loves me and giving me pleasure makes her happy. She doesn't act like it's a chore because, to her, it isn't. It's an act of love. She is not doing it to achieve an orgasm for herself.

I don't see why most partners wouldn't do the same for their partners if they were not particularly in the mood to try and have an orgasm or conditions did not permit.

This presumes that someone has no moral objection to performing the act, which can be demonstrated not to be the case since it had previously been given.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> At least that's a real reason.
> 
> It's better than "I don't feel like it".
> 
> It wasn't degrading previously (unless it was, which prompts the question "why were you willing to do something degrading previously to make me happy but you are no longer willing? Not that I'd want her to do something I ?)now knew her to find degrading, but why the change


The problem with asking a question like this and getting an answer is that THE QUESTIONS DON'T USUALLY STOP AT THE ANSWER. Quite often the husband (or wife) will not only continue to probe but (s)he'll find something "wrong" with whatever answers (s)he gives, as being proven by this and other threads. 

Sometimes, you guys (and gals) aren't being honest regarding your line of questioning. Although you may want to know the truth, you'll do what you can to try to _manipulate_ your spouse with that information. 

Case in point: If a woman tells her husband that she doesn't like giving bj's because she finds them degrading, some husbands would then try to figure out (either with or without her help) a way to "get her" to not find it "degrading" instead of _accepting_ how she feels. 

Perhaps one reason why she doesn't want to talk about it is because she already knows what her husband will try to do.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Vega said:


> Perhaps one reason why she doesn't want to talk about it is because she already knows what her husband will try to do.


Good point.


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> I'm forced to assume that you did not read through the thread entirely. I absolutely do NOT want her to do it if she doesn't want to. I've stated that plainly several times. I'd rather her not do it at all than do it if she doesn't want to.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how to respond to that. It feels like salt.


Can you plan a time alone for the two of you, without the kids, where she can't walk away from the conversation? Be blunt but not accusatory. Say you've noticed that she doesn't do this anymore and you are wondering why. Tell her you really enjoy how she does it and miss it. Ask how you can make it happen more often and see what she says.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Your wife contributes to the household income, has had children, is a good mother, likes spending time with you, loves you and enjoys having sex with you. You have a lot to be thankful for. Not what you want though. 

It may be difficult to convince your wife that she needs to do extra to please you, no matter how she feels. You can make a case for getting bj if you overvalue what you do and undervalue what your wife does. But, don't dismiss the value of what you already have so easily.

Are you in good shape, positive, independent, proactive, have plans and execute them? Do you beg for sex acts? Don't it makes you seem pathetic and it's degrading. 

Change the way you think about sex, it's for both of you. The cultural norm of a woman being responsible for pleasing a man does not work obviously. Never have sex, including bj and hj's when she is unaroused and will not get an orgasm. 

Your chances of getting what you want are better if you change your attitude. Appreciate the value of what you already have, assume that your wife is giving as much as you in th relationship and deserves to be pleased as much as you.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
she said she always has found it degrading - but she was happy to do it for my birthday 

Clearly we still don't have good communication. 

In any case I certainly don't want something she thinks is awful.




Buddy400 said:


> At least that's a real reason.
> 
> It's better than "I don't feel like it".
> 
> It wasn't degrading previously (unless it was, which prompts the question "why were you willing to do something degrading previously to make me happy but you are no longer willing? Not that I'd want her to do something I ?)now knew her to find degrading, but why the change


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## old red (Jul 26, 2014)

You both made a commitment to each other to fulfil each other's needs when you married. She has changed the terms of your marriage contract to your detriment, without any consequences. So, be frank and honest with her. If you think that she has done a bait and switch on you, call her out on it. Do less for her, but be upfront about it. Tell her what you no longer feel like doing and follow through. Buy erotic comics about blow jobs, and start reading them when the kids are in bed, and then go and masturbate. I would do this in a way where she knows exactly what you are doing.

However, I would only do the above if I had previously let my needs be known in an honest and transparent fashion. Marriage is about meeting each other's needs, not entrapment. Marriage involves a lot of compromise - I am reminded of this every time that I clean out our cats' litter tray for the cats that my wife wanted. However, I am happy to do this for my wife, even though I find it disgusting, because she is an awesome and generous wife, mother to my children and lover.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> But I have my doubts (based on my own experience) that she's going to be able to be convincing enough while performing to make you think she really is into it. She will probably try, because she loves you. But she won't fool you.





fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> The most depressing 10 sentences I've ever read.


Define "into it." I think if you have a porn visualization where she's acting like she's having an orgasm with her mouth, then that might be an unreasonable "into it." But if she can show that she's "into it" by saying "Let me just do something for you tonight," then that's very achievable. Don't lose faith just yet.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> If she doesn't enjoy it, I don't enjoy it. Obligation sex is not worth having. I'd prefer not to have sex at all if she doesn't orgasm (which is extraordinarily rare, she orgasms 95% of the time we have sex).


You might have to do this for a while in order to set the precedence that you would like to do something 4 times per week, as opposed to twice. You're going to have to be consistent with this and not fall inbto the same 2x routine. If you're going to have success with this issue, you might have to take one step backward in order to take two forward.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> I don't 'do housework to make her happy', I'm 'happy to do housework because it makes it happy', do you see the distinction? I'm literally happy while doing housework. I smile, I enjoy the act of doing housework. When I was a teenager and when I lived alone afterwards, I did not enjoy housework. In fact, I hated it and did as little as possible. It's only now in marriage that I enjoy the act of doing it because of its effect on her.


Would you still do the housework because it makes her happy if you knew that it negatively impacted her desire for you? Read MMSLP. Even if you don't fully follow the program, it will be an eye opening read for you.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

My husband does plenty of housework and we evidently have more sex than that, so ... this universal Athol Kay Dark Triad Alpha crap that women secretly resent men who help with the chores of daily life and is the universal reason they are not having sex is false.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Why do you think brides smile so much on their wedding day???

They know they've given their last BJ


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## mitchell (May 19, 2014)

Early on you said you don't want a duty BJ. Nice thought, but in reality that's what your asking for when you go down the road you are traveling here. Your wife's actions are telling you what she wants. You have to accept that. You two do communicate and are having as much sexual contact as she wants. Wanting her to please you more would just be "duty" sex.

Quit lying to yourself. The reality of your situation is that your wife gets nothing out of giving you a standalone BJ. She gets no sexual pleasure and derives no satisfaction out of just giving you pleasure. That's just not her style. She's not a "giver".


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Her actions show she enjoyed before, during and into their marriage. He wants to know why the frequency dropped because it is something he likes. Yet, he better not ask because he is either going to manipulate her or he is doing things to coerce her. This is why marriages have communication failures and fall apart, instead of asking the person we ask others for advice. Then spouses start goose steeping, don't talk and marriages fall apart. It's okay to ask questions and not accept actions as they appear on the surface.
Dude, ask her whats up, don't accept her common excuses and then BELIEVE her answer. If it means a BJ once a month or not at all accept it and move on. Once you have a legit answer, follow the one part of life's point and let it go and enjoy her and the "adventurous" sex you have.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

mitchell said:


> Quit lying to yourself. The reality of your situation is that your wife gets nothing out of giving you a standalone BJ. She gets no sexual pleasure and derives no satisfaction out of just giving you pleasure. That's just not her style. She's not a "giver".


Nothing his wife does qualifies her as a giver except giving him unreciprocated sexual pleasure? 

She gave him children before she was ready but that is not enough. This entitled tone is not one he should take, nor should he demand she give him the answer he is looking for. 

She gave her answer, she does not feel like it. Pressing her further will only bring anger and resentment. She may feel that she has the right to decide what she wants to do. 

Instead of making her feel she is required to give him a satisfactory answer, why not find out what made her feel like giving in the past and what changed. What was it about the relationship that inspired her to give. 

I don't think he should ask directly about bj but think back and analyze. Talk about those times with her and see if you can pick out any hints about what changed. 

BTW, do you give your wife unreciprocated sexual pleasure weekly?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
There is a very blurry line. I give my wife long massages sometimes. I don't personally enjoy it - its a lot of work and makes my hands sore. But - she enjoys it and I enjoy her enjoying it.

I'd never consider giving a massage to someone I wasn't intimate with. (not saying no one else should but for me it is to much contact for a casual person).

Language isn't very good at this sort of thing. There is an enjoyment from pleasing someone you love even though you don't directly get pleasure yourself. 



mitchell said:


> Early on you said you don't want a duty BJ. Nice thought, but in reality that's what your asking for when you go down the road you are traveling here. Your wife's actions are telling you what she wants. You have to accept that. You two do communicate and are having as much sexual contact as she wants. Wanting her to please you more would just be "duty" sex.
> 
> Quit lying to yourself. The reality of your situation is that your wife gets nothing out of giving you a standalone BJ. She gets no sexual pleasure and derives no satisfaction out of just giving you pleasure. That's just not her style. She's not a "giver".


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Vega said:


> The problem with asking a question like this and getting an answer is that THE QUESTIONS DON'T USUALLY STOP AT THE ANSWER. Quite often the husband (or wife) will not only continue to probe but (s)he'll find something "wrong" with whatever answers (s)he gives, as being proven by this and other threads.
> 
> Sometimes, you guys (and gals) aren't being honest regarding your line of questioning. Although you may want to know the truth, you'll do what you can to try to _manipulate_ your spouse with that information.
> 
> ...


Agreed. He's looking for an answer he can address and fix, but there might not be a fix.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> My husband does plenty of housework and we evidently have more sex than that, so ... this universal Athol Kay Dark Triad Alpha crap that women secretly resent men who help with the chores of daily life and is the universal reason they are not having sex is false.


Yes, that's misogynistic bull by a guy who preaches ways to manipulate and keep your woman in line.

Guaranteed if my husband stopped doing his part around the house and left it to me like I'm his mother/maid he'd be getting a lot less sex.

I don't know who comes up with the crap except men who don't think housework is their job or don't want to be bothered with it and are looking for reasons this view is a good one.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> She gave her answer, she does not feel like it. Pressing her further will only bring anger and resentment. She may feel that she has the right to decide what she wants to do.


This confuses me. 

If a woman said that her husband used to be romantic, now no longer was and didn't put any effort into "dating" her anymore.

If she asked him why and he said "I don't feel like it".

I don't think she would get the response from you that she's gotten his answer and that pressing him further would only bring anger and resentment.

But maybe I'm wrong.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> This confuses me.
> 
> If a woman said that her husband used to be romantic, now no longer was and didn't put any effort into "dating" her anymore.
> 
> ...


I don't understand this. I would if she'd stopped having sex with him, that would be akin to a guy that stopped dating his wife.

But they're still having great sex, just not as much as he wants.

That is akin to a guy that used to take his wife out 4 nights a week now only taking her out 2 because they have a life and he doesn't really want to go out 4 times a week.

Nobody would chastise him for that.....on the contrary, the wife would be told that she has unrealistic expectations of marriage and is a princess and should be glad that he's taking her out twice a week.

So would she be entitled to be upset that he's not taking her out 4 times a week like he used to?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> The Alpha thing has a kernel of truth to it: be sexually bold, confident and aggressive: yes, lots of women like that.
> 
> Don't be a doormat: good advice for both sexes. Pushovers are generally not very attractive, so yes.
> 
> That's about as much as I think you can safely assume will be helpful. Make your wife's life as easy as you possibly can *without* letting her walk all over you. And vice versa for women. Common sense.


A man who does the dishes because they need to be done and doesn't need accolades for "helping" is very sexy because that's a man who handles things 

Maybe the confusion is that men who do chores not because they're part of a team but because there's a covert contact involved are not attractive. Such men may not even realize they have such a contact, but one with an attitude of i do chores I don't like so why can't she do sex acts she doesn't like does have such a contract. 

I never understood the attitude of well I do chores even though I don't like to do so somehow that equates to sexual favors. The only way that can hold is if one views chores as a woman's job so any hb that pitches in is really doing her a big favor so therefore she can do things for him. Quid pro quo.

I'm not insinuating OP is this guy, that's for him to consider.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Vega said:


> The problem with asking a question like this and getting an answer is that THE QUESTIONS DON'T USUALLY STOP AT THE ANSWER. Quite often the husband (or wife) will not only continue to probe but (s)he'll find something "wrong" with whatever answers (s)he gives, as being proven by this and other threads.
> 
> Sometimes, you guys (and gals) aren't being honest regarding your line of questioning. Although you may want to know the truth, you'll do what you can to try to _manipulate_ your spouse with that information.
> 
> ...


QFT. 

The only reason why HDs have the "sex discussion" is so they can convince the LD spouse to give more sex. Any reasons as to why there is not more sex have to be minimized and dismissed.

Which is why LDs are loathe to have those discussions.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Starstarfish said:


> My husband does plenty of housework and we evidently have more sex than that, so ... this universal Athol Kay Dark Triad Alpha crap that women secretly resent men who help with the chores of daily life and is the universal reason they are not having sex is false.


Okay, so OP wants to know why OS has declined after marriage. You have sex with your husband after he does housekeeping, so you're sure that's not OP's problem. Got it.

That's not what the book says anyway.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

It maybe that she doesnt like it and feels uncomfortable doing it. How about you enjoy the good sex life you have and let it go? 
Many women dont like oral sex, and I am not sure why its so vital when the vagina is the perfect size and design to have good sex. Let go of the resentment and move on.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I know a man (Australian), who is generally a good man, if a little emotionally delicate. I would not call him a friend particularly, but I respect him. I know he and his wife (British) are going through difficulties, the sex is down to twice a week and he is unsatisfied and his wife is unsympathetic. 

The thing is, they have two young kids, whom the wife care for mainly. She also does the bulk of the house work and works 24 hour/pw including a night shift. Personally, I think he is rather spoiled and agree with her that he should just suck it up. 

If either of them were to write their side on TAM, I think the majority of posters would side with whoever wrote the first post.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Yes, that's misogynistic bull by a guy who preaches ways to manipulate and keep your woman in line.
> 
> Guaranteed if my husband stopped doing his part around the house and left it to me like I'm his mother/maid he'd be getting a lot less sex.
> 
> I don't know who comes up with the crap except men who don't think housework is their job or don't want to be bothered with it and are looking for reasons this view is a good one.


It is useful for men who have to learn that their role in a relationship is to accept as well as to give (the same applies to women, but it is more mainstream in their case). However, it is also seized on my men who think their feeling are all important and the women do not respect them is because they are too nice (plenty of women are the same as this too).


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

twice a week is pretty average, and if they have small kids I think that is pretty good actually.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> twice a week is pretty average, and if they have small kids I think that is pretty good actually.


I agree


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Buddy400 said:


> This confuses me.
> 
> If a woman said that her husband used to be romantic, now no longer was and didn't put any effort into "dating" her anymore.
> 
> ...


Of course if she pressed him to do something he did not want to do he would feel resentment that she is pushing him as if he has no right to choose. Men are as human as women. This is not a men vs. women discussion. It's an attempt to help the OP. That's what she said and that's what he has to work with. 

Just to give you perspective. I give stand alone bj only when I feel inspired to do so otherwise they are part of oral sex sessions. My husband gives me and then I give him. That was my husband preference not mine. I never gave a bj before him. 

I feel strongly about this. I see no reason men should not get bj. They should have opportunities to just relax and enjoy and think of nothing else. I challenge the way bj's are done. 

I suspect that many women don't say that giving a bj cold and not getting their arousal satisfied is a problem. Women should talk about how they feel and change the way they give. 

Instead they deal with the lack of appreciation, minimizing the skill involved and dismissing some aspects that are understandably unpleasant. A change in attitude and practice seems so simple and may work. I don't understand the resistance.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> My wife and I have been married for nearly 8 years. She is the love of my life. I'm not leaving her.
> 
> Now that we have that out of the way, I have a problem with the frequency of oral sex that I receive, which is bordering on none. We have sex 1-2 times per week. I'd like more but I can live with that frequency. However, sex is all that I get. If I'm fortunate, I might receive a handjob during her period, but anything beyond that is rare to the point of 'go buy a lottery ticket right now'. If I ask a lot right before sex she's usually willing to give 20-30 seconds of oral right before sex, but never as a standalone act. When we were dating and before we had our first child oral sex was a regular part of our lives. She did it reasonably often and almost always during foreplay without being asked. She sometimes complained it made her jaw 'pop', but otherwise seemed to enjoy it. She'd initiate, tease, get into it. However, after our first child it decreased in frequency a lot and for the last 3-4 years it's basically ceased entirely. Maybe once a year. Think it happened twice last year maybe?
> 
> ...



you do know that some of the people here have been cheated on and denied sex during that time. You also do know that some of these people have been in sexless marriages. 

Many here (not me btw) wish they got it 1-2 times a week.

Just chill and express your concerns to her.

But for the board to feel badly for you ??? Not going to happen


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

A man who needs to be asked repeatedly to do his fair share of chores is not beta he is lazy. His wife's need to ask him again and again is not nagging, it's a verbal attempt to get his lazy azz moving. 

When two people agree to live together and have children, they make a contract with each other to labor equally to maintain the home and nurture the children. No one is "helping".


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> It is useful for men who have to learn that their role in a relationship is to accept as well as to give (the same applies to women, but it is more mainstream in their case). However, it is also seized on my men who think their feeling are all important and the women do not respect them is because they are too nice (plenty of women are the same as this too).


Fair enough. Like Olivia said, doormat is not attractive to anyone so if the reason he's doing all this housework is because he lets his wife walk all over him that's a problem. 

It should be his contribution to a partnership.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> I go down on her as often as she'll let me. To orgasm every time that she'll let me. (Though I'd love to give her multiples, she usually wants to end any sexual interaction after one orgasm. She says they tire her out.)


When you have pleasured her and she is done, how do you feel about it? Are you done too?


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> Okay, so OP wants to know why OS has declined after marriage. You have sex with your husband after he does housekeeping, so you're sure that's not OP's problem. Got it.


The OPs issue is deeper than just a decline in oral sex, the issue is him not seeing any issue with the idea of "Hey, can you just give me a blowjob twice a week with with no return value because having PIV is just too much of a bother." 

Which long-term I'm guessing will do zero about fixing the connection between them so that sex is a more natural part of their relationship. As for the whole "people should do things as an act of love" thing - I don't totally disagree. But expecting that twice a week every week seems ... a bit much. That no longer seems like a spontaneous genuine act of love freely given. 

I'm still waiting to hear why do they have so little time together that quickie blowjobs is the solution to their sex life when the wife only works until 4 and he works part-time and makes his own hours.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't understand this. I would if she'd stopped having sex with him, that would be akin to a guy that stopped dating his wife.
> 
> But they're still having great sex, just not as much as he wants.


You're defining great sex for him I think the OP gets to make his own decision as to what defines great sex for him. He is not happy about the decline in frequency and the absence of a key element that was important to him. I think his point about the infrequent "great sex" was his way of saying that she still enjoyed sex when they had it, which only adds to his puzzlement.



lifeistooshort said:


> That is akin to a guy that used to take his wife out 4 nights a week now only taking her out 2 because they have a life and he doesn't really want to go out 4 times a week.
> 
> Nobody would chastise him for that.....on the contrary, the wife would be told that she has unrealistic expectations of marriage and is a princess and should be glad that he's taking her out twice a week.
> 
> So would she be entitled to be upset that he's not taking her out 4 times a week like he used to?


I see many, many comments that a man needs to continue "dating" his wife. I don't recall people saying that it's okay to only date them half as much as long as they are still "good" dates (and even if they no longer include something that she considered an important part of good date).

Of course it's unrealistic to expect the same quantity of either dating or sex assuming a marriage with children. Maybe if she said "it's tough for me to have the same amount of time for sex when we have small children" he'd understand.

But, she didn't say that. She said "I don't feel like it".

If his wife asked him why they didn't date as often now, would it be okay for him to say "I don't feel like it"? Would you point out to her that they still have good dates, she should be happy with that, not annoy him with her concerns and just take that as an answer?

And, let's not forget that it wasn't even the reduced frequency of sex that was his major issue. It was the disappearance of oral sex. I'm not sure how the fact that they are married means that she shouldn't be expected to do that anymore.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

CynthiaDe said:


> When you have pleasured her and she is done, how do you feel about it? Are you done too?


When the initial intent was for me to just focus on her, I do not ask her to reciprocate or imply (or appear) that I want her to. I want it to "stand alone" as something I did only to please her, because I love her, because her pleasure is important to me; that it wasn't given for the purpose of hoping for something in return.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I never understood the attitude of well I do chores even though I don't like to do so somehow that equates to sexual favors.


I think that most of the time something like this is mentioned, it's in an effort to describe "things men do for their wives because they like to make their wives happy", not because they are trying the to imply a quid pre quo of sex in exchange for doing the dishes.

It's an argument that has to be VERY carefully worded (and is difficult to do). Especially since men can usually be tagged as wanting sex but "what women want" is more varied and hard to pin down. Also, any attempt to imply that something is "what women" want is prone to trigger claims of sexism and stereotyping.

I'd like to suggest we start referring to what women want as "TTWW" (the thing women want).


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

CynthiaDe said:


> When you have pleasured her and she is done, how do you feel about it? Are you done too?


There have been a lot of times, that, YES, I am done too. 
Sometimes, especially after I have been away on business a while and we get back at it, when I make her O with oral, I spontaneously erupt. No touching or anything, just BOOM. 

So, I can be done, maybe. One of us or both of us may want 'another shot' !

:grin2:


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

techmom said:


> QFT.
> 
> The only reason why HDs have the "sex discussion" is so they can convince the LD spouse to give more sex. Any reasons as to why there is not more sex have to be minimized and dismissed.
> 
> Which is why LDs are loathe to have those discussions.


The reason why people have the "commitment discussion" is so that they can convince their "fear of commitment" partner to commit to them. Any reasons as to why there hasn't been enough commitment have to be minimized and dismissed.

Which is why people who are leery of commitment are loathe to have those discussions.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> It maybe that she doesnt like it and feels uncomfortable doing it. How about you enjoy the good sex life you have and let it go?
> Many women dont like oral sex, and I am not sure why its so vital when the vagina is the perfect size and design to have good sex. Let go of the resentment and move on.


No one is saying that women are required to give oral sex.

We wonder why a women who happily gave oral sex in the past no longer does.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Mr The Other said:


> I know a man (Australian), who is generally a good man, if a little emotionally delicate. I would not call him a friend particularly, but I respect him. I know he and his wife (British) are going through difficulties, the sex is down to twice a week and he is unsatisfied and his wife is unsympathetic.
> 
> The thing is, they have two young kids, whom the wife care for mainly. She also does the bulk of the house work and works 24 hour/pw including a night shift. Personally, I think he is rather spoiled and agree with her that he should just suck it up.
> 
> If either of them were to write their side on TAM, I think the majority of posters would side with whoever wrote the first post.


If the man described the situation as you did, I'd tell him to stop being a jerk. But people like that don't post on sites like this because they don't think there is a problem.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> The reason why people have the "commitment discussion" is so that they can convince their "fear of commitment" partner to commit to them. Any reasons as to why there hasn't been enough commitment have to be minimized and dismissed.
> 
> Which is why people who are leery of commitment are loathe to have those discussions.


The LD spouse is already committed, the HD is only wanting more sex, so you totally missed the point of my post.

If a person won't commit, then I would just move on, a HD spouse would have to go through a divorce process to do the same...

Because I'm discussing a couple who is already married. As the OP is.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> Of course if she pressed him to do something he did not want to do he would feel resentment that she is pushing him as if he has no right to choose. Men are as human as women. This is not a men vs. women discussion. It's an attempt to help the OP. That's what she said and that's what he has to work with.
> 
> Just to give you perspective. I give stand alone bj only when I feel inspired to do so otherwise they are part of oral sex sessions. My husband gives me and then I give him. That was my husband preference not mine. I never gave a bj before him.
> 
> ...


One minor point (a tiny quibble which should not distract from an excellent post):

I bring my wife tea when I know she wants tea *. I don't understand why I should only bring tea her tea when I feel inspired. I want her to appreciate the tea as much as possible, so I want to bring it to her when I know she wants it, not when she might be indifferent.

* Of course there are limits. I'm not going to come home from work early to bring her tea, or bring her tea because she wants it when she's laying in bed and I'm fixing a leak in the kitchen sink or after she's just done something to anger me.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

techmom said:


> The LD spouse is already committed, the HD is only wanting more sex, so you totally missed the point of my post.
> 
> If a person won't commit, then I would just move on, a HD spouse would have to go through a divorce process to do the same...
> 
> Because I'm discussing a couple who is already married. As the OP is.


You're quibbling about a technicality.

You well know that my point is that your argument could easily be applied to justify anyone avoiding any conversation that they don't want to hear.


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## golf4ever (Oct 30, 2013)

Amen Catherine


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Buddy400 said:


> When the initial intent was for me to just focus on her, I do not ask her to reciprocate or imply (or appear) that I want her to. I want it to "stand alone" as something I did only to please her, because I love her, because her pleasure is important to me; that it wasn't given for the purpose of hoping for something in return.


Buddy am I remembering correctly, you have problems with the frequency of sex in you marriage. Why would you give unreciprocated pleasure? 

I think the expectation of sacrificial sexual acts does more harm than good. Having sex is opening yourself for a short period and reciprocation helps each person close back up. 

If you give and don't get what you need to gather yourself together, there must be consequences. Maybe a small wound or a need that is not filled. 

My advice, don't do it. Not because you are mean or selfish, but because I think it is bad for your relationship. Have mutually satisfying sex, don't render a service.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

OP would like more sex, but he is cool with 2 times a week, He is wondering the real reason why BJs have stopped. For some reason this has turned into stand alone forced and manipulated BJs with no reciprocation, no matter how many times he states this isn't the case.

It's like we are trying to help solve other people's sex issues and not his question.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Vega said:


> The problem with asking a question like this and getting an answer is that THE QUESTIONS DON'T USUALLY STOP AT THE ANSWER. Quite often the husband (or wife) will not only continue to probe but (s)he'll find something "wrong" with whatever answers (s)he gives, as being proven by this and other threads.
> 
> Sometimes, you guys (and gals) aren't being honest regarding your line of questioning. Although you may want to know the truth, you'll do what you can to try to _manipulate_ your spouse with that information.
> 
> ...


BINGO!!! 

Your post is textbook for people who just can't accept 'No' for an answer. My husband is like this. Sounds like OP is like this as well. Any reason given is interpreted by the asker as either unacceptable or something to be fixed. Admitting that the issue is one of incompatibility and letting it go _is not_ an option for these types.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> OP would like more sex, but he is cool with 2 times a week, He is wondering the real reason why BJs have stopped. For some reason this has turned into stand alone forced and manipulated BJs with no reciprocation, no matter how many times he states this isn't the case.
> 
> It's like we are trying to help solve other people's sex issues and not his question.


That's not what he said. Read what he said, he wants BJs twice a week with no other sex action involved as that's too much effort.


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

It's been awhile...what's a BJ?


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

philreag said:


> It's been awhile...what's a BJ?




Blue jeans


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> You're quibbling about a technicality.
> 
> You well know that my point is that your argument could easily be applied to justify anyone avoiding any conversation that they don't want to hear.


You did a poor job of trying to illustrate your point.

My point was to drive home Vega's post, which was that whatever reason the LD gives for not wanting more sex gets minimized and dismissed. What needs to happen is more understanding because the LD deserves to be heard just as much as the HD. Which is why having these discussions are fruitless if the HD approaches it with the attitude of "no matter what, I want more sex!", because then the LD will begin to dig in their heels because they feel that any answer besides "yes" will continue more "discussions".


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Lila said:


> BINGO!!!
> 
> Your post is textbook for people who just can't accept 'No' for an answer. My husband is like this. Sounds like OP is like this as well. Any reason given is interpreted by the asker as either unacceptable or something to be fixed. Admitting that the issue is one of incompatibility and letting it go _is not_ an option for these types.


Also to add, if a HD person marries someone who they know from the beginning only wanted sex about four times a week, how do they think they will increase frequency throughout childbirth, jobs and everything else that takes place during the course of marriage. Boggles the mind.

It is as if they want to mold this person into someone different, instead of choosing the HD match in the first place.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> Buddy am I remembering correctly, you have problems with the frequency of sex in you marriage. Why would you give unreciprocated pleasure?
> 
> I think the expectation of sacrificial sexual acts does more harm than good. Having sex is opening yourself for a short period and reciprocation helps each person close back up.
> 
> ...


No, actually I never had any problems with frequency.

My issue was that I couldn't figure out why, knowing that my wife was crazy about me, cared deeply about my happiness and had never had an issue with performing oral; it happened so infrequently.

I was certain that I had made it clear to her how important this was to me. I couldn't figure out why she would pay so little attention to this.

The problem turned out to be that she's self-centered (although she tries really hard not to be) and I had not made my desires clear to her (hard though that was for me to believe). I was assuming that she'd respond like I would in a similar situation (big mistake!).

When she finally understood, everything improved. In fact, overall, sex in our marriage really got hot for both of us (still is). 

I felt pretty stupid not addressing this 15 years earlier and came to TAM to share the secret: if your wife loves you and cares about your happiness, just make your needs known and everything will be great!

Little did I know.....


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

@Buddy400 would you be willing to share details? What did you say. Did you pick your moment and what tone did you use? Your wife is still self-centered yet she came to understand. Why?

I read the advice you've given in your post before but don't remember if you discussed what you said to effect a change in your wife. Tone and words count for a great deal. From your other posts, you don't sound angry but puzzled and very loving too. Some men are angry and approach their wives in anger. Both are natural but often get anger and resistance in return.


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## woodyh (Oct 23, 2015)

Ha! Declining oral sex after marriage?

Declining means I was getting some and it got less and less as time went on. Wife USED to give oral, we got married and it was more like "I don't like giving oral and I am not doing it anymore".
More like it fell off the plate abruptly.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

woodyh said:


> Ha! Declining oral sex after marriage?
> 
> Declining means I was getting some and it got less and less as time went on. Wife USED to give oral, we got married and it was more like "I don't like giving oral and I am not doing it anymore".
> More like it fell off the plate abruptly.


Bait and switch. My ex was like, "I don't like sex and I am not doing it anymore." Just occasionally enough to string me along, actually, and even the very rare BJ. After hoping I could change her mind for years, I was like, "I don't like being married to you and I am not doing it anymore." Things got better after that - with someone else.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> @Buddy400 would you be willing to share details? What did you say. Did you pick your moment and what tone did you use? Your wife is still self-centered yet she came to understand. Why?
> 
> I read the advice you've given in your post before but don't remember if you discussed what you said to effect a change in your wife. Tone and words count for a great deal. From your other posts, you don't sound angry but puzzled and very loving too. Some men are angry and approach their wives in anger. Both are natural but often get anger and resistance in return.


I'll post the details later when I've got time.


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## helpthisguy86 (Jan 14, 2014)

In my experience most women don't like giving oral sex due to the fact that they get nothing out of it. Unless they are dating of course, which is the usual bait and switch tactic which is one of many things I fell prey to with my XW.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Vega said:


> The problem with asking a question like this and getting an answer is that THE QUESTIONS DON'T USUALLY STOP AT THE ANSWER. Quite often the husband (or wife) will not only continue to probe but (s)he'll find something "wrong" with whatever answers (s)he gives, as being proven by this and other threads.
> 
> Sometimes, you guys (and gals) aren't being honest regarding your line of questioning. Although you may want to know the truth, you'll do what you can to try to _manipulate_ your spouse with that information.
> 
> ...


well said and very true. As an older person, I can say that men's great demand and frequent expectation of BJs are to a great extent a fairly recent thing and my theory is that its due to the massive rise of porn use which has led to demands for all sorts. 

If the woman doesn't want to do it and feels uncomfortable, then she shouldn't be pressured or forced or manipulated to do it, just as the man shoudn't be forced to do things he isn't comfortable with. 

Make the most of and enjoy what you do sexually, and stop forcing each other to do things that they dont enjoy is my advise.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

You are getting it twice a week and complaining? Give me a break


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> If the woman doesn't want to do it and feels uncomfortable, then she shouldn't be pressured or forced or manipulated to do it, just as the man shoudn't be forced to do things he isn't comfortable with.


No man on this thread thinks women should do it if they don't want to and they feel uncomfortable.

We're wondering why, *when it was done gladly in the past*, does she no longer does it.

Kind of like how a woman might wonder why her husband used to bring her flowers or take her on surprise dates but no longer does those things.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Okguy said:


> You are getting it twice a week and complaining? Give me a break


"Getting it" like it's something a woman should ration out! lol

How does that blue pill taste?


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> well said and very true. As an older person, I can say that men's great demand and frequent expectation of BJs are to a great extent a fairly recent thing and my theory is that its due to the massive rise of porn use which has led to demands for all sorts.
> 
> If the woman doesn't want to do it and feels uncomfortable, then she shouldn't be pressured or forced or manipulated to do it, just as the man shoudn't be forced to do things he isn't comfortable with.
> 
> Make the most of and enjoy what you do sexually, and stop forcing each other to do things that they dont enjoy is my advise.


Disagree! It's all to easy for a spouse to get into the same routine whereby any suggestions for new or erotic acts/positions are turned down. Of course it depends on what that particular activity is, but sometimes it takes some coaxing or encouragement by the other person to build interest or confidence. I think it's weak for the partner to say "well, she said no, so I guess I'll never mention it again." Plus, there are plenty of things that take some time to build up the courage to do it, and in the end it can end up being a go-to act in the future by both spouses.

Let's face it, oral sex is not some off-the-wall activity. Some research has suggested around 3/4 of women give OS to men. It often has a sense of taboo for women (like it did my wife). It may take some time to build that comfort level (it took me 25 years!).


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Kind of like how a woman might wonder why her husband used to bring her flowers or take her on surprise dates but no longer does those things.


Sooo.....?

Why DOESN'T he bring her flowers or take her on surprise dates anymore???????


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Vega said:


> Sooo.....?
> 
> Why DOESN'T he bring her flowers or take her on surprise dates anymore???????


Because she doesn't do oral sex any more!

JK :grin2:


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> No man on this thread thinks women should do it if they don't want to and they feel uncomfortable.
> 
> We're wondering why, *when it was done gladly in the past*, does she no longer does it.
> 
> Kind of like how a woman might wonder why her husband used to bring her flowers or take her on surprise dates but no longer does those things.


Likes and dislikes change throughout ones life. Why is this such a difficult concept to understand? Why do some feel there must be justification for changes? 

Again, there doesn't seem to be an acceptable response for OP's decline in bjs. If his wife says " I don't want to", the follow on question is "why? ". She can then respond with "I don't like it", the follow on question is "why?" and so on and so forth. 

The ONLY way to get people like that to stop is to either use a physiological excuse (it causes immense pain, etc) or use very strong, direct language to get them to drop it. 

Unfortunately, the physiological excuse doesn't work for emotional dislikes. For example, my girlfriend and her husband used to be big into Cos Play. They actually met doing this while in college. Cos play was even a part of their sexual relationship. Over the years he became less and less interested in Cos play, especially during sex. However she was still very into it. When asked why he didn't want to do cos play, his response was that he didn't like it. Sadly, she's one of those types who can't accept "I don't like it" as a reason and continued to push for it. Meanwhile his resentment was increasing every time she asked him for it. It all came to a head one day when she asked to cos play in bed and his response was " I've already told you I don't like doing this. You must have some sort of fetish where you enjoy playing with my limp ****". Needless to say she was devastated......but she got the message loud and clear. It was sad that it had to get to the point though.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Vega said:


> Sooo.....?
> 
> Why DOESN'T he bring her flowers or take her on surprise dates anymore???????


No doubt for the same reasons. Complacency, boredom, doesn't care about their partner's happiness, the "exciting" part of the relationship is over, etc., etc.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> Likes and dislikes change throughout ones life. Why is this such a difficult concept to understand? Why do some feel there must be justification for changes?
> 
> Again, there doesn't seem to be an acceptable response for OP's decline in bjs. If his wife says " I don't want to", the follow on question is "why? ". She can then respond with "I don't like it", the follow on question is "why?" and so on and so forth.
> 
> ...


If such a significant change in likes and dislikes has taken place, I think it *needs* to get to that point. You can't dodge it forever and expect that the marriage will just happily continue on.

She had a thing for Cos Play, she thought he was on-board. He changed the ground rules, so the relationship needs to be re-evaluated.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Capster said:


> Because she doesn't do oral sex any more!
> 
> JK :grin2:


LOL!!! I actually thought of that right after I hit "submit post"!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> If such a significant change in likes and dislikes has taken place, I think it *needs* to get to that point. You can't dodge it forever and expect that the marriage will just happily continue on.
> 
> She had a thing for Cos Play, she thought he was on-board. He changed the ground rules, so the relationship needs to be re-evaluated.


That's kind of what I told her. I basically said she needed to either accept her husband's position or, if Cos play was that important to her, then she needed to divorce him and find someone who enjoyed it add much as her. She got mad at me for suggesting divorce. See, she enjoyed and appreciated all of the 1,001 good qualities her husband brought to the table but was hung up on this one thing. We see this time and time again.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> If such a significant change in likes and dislikes has taken place, I think it *needs* to get to that point. You can't dodge it forever and expect that the marriage will just happily continue on.
> 
> She had a thing for Cos Play, she thought he was on-board. *He changed the ground rules, so the relationship needs to be re-evaluated*.


Or maybe the 'ground rules' need to be re-evaluated. Maybe the ground rules need to be more _realistic_ instead of inline with some _fantasy_ that things will or "should" NEVER change....


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Vega said:


> Or maybe the 'ground rules' need to be re-evaluated. Maybe the ground rules need to be more _realistic_ instead of inline with some _fantasy_ that things will or "should" NEVER change....


The ground rules were re-evaluated; and she's not happy about it. Maybe this means that she never has satisfying sex again. 

So now she needs to decide to just live with it or attend the next Cos play convention alone.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> The ground rules were re-evaluated; and she's not happy about it. Maybe this means that she never has satisfying sex again.
> 
> So now she needs to decide to just live with it or attend the next Cos play convention alone.


Suggesting she go outside the marriage for one sex act is a slippery slope. Today is cos play (or bj in OP'S case). Tomorrow it's something else. 

If any person, man or woman, wants to make a specific sex act/fetish the hill they are ready to die on, then go all in one way or the other. Get a divorce. Don't be a cake eater.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> She had a thing for Cos Play, she thought he was on-board. He changed the ground rules, so the relationship needs to be re-evaluated.


This reminds me of the "bait-and-switch" that we often talk about here on TAM as regards to women LOVING sex BEFORE marriage, and how it either dwindles down to nothing (or stops abruptly) shortly AFTER marriage. 

There's a spinoff of a saying that goes something like, "Women wouldn't fake orgasms if men didn't fake *relationships*". Seems to me that some men (and yes, _some_ women do this too...) pull the ol' 'bait-and-switch' regarding relationships at least as often as women pull the bait-and-switch regarding sex. 

I think I've mentioned on TAM before that my late husband did something similar. When I asked him why was so attentive/loving etc. BEFORE we were married and stopped AFTER we were married he said, "A guy (I guess he though he was speaking for ALL 'guys', lol!) can't keep up the CHARADE forever!" 

So, if a man gives a woman flowers and takes her out to dinner BEFORE marriage and stops AFTER marriage, was it all just a "charade" to him in order to 'win' the 'prize'? 

And likewise, if a woman generously gives bj's BEFORE marriage, and stops AFTER marriage, is it because she "got the guy" and doesn't have to work at it anymore? 

Do they both feel AFTER marriage that since they "worked so hard" at "winning", that now it's their spouses turn to do the work to KEEP them? That their spouse now "owes" them?

Are relationships REALLY that CALCULATED?


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Lila said:


> If any person, man or woman, wants to make a specific sex act/fetish the hill they are ready to die on, then go all in one way or the other. Get a divorce. Don't be a cake eater.


Seems like a pretty shallow reason to get married in the first place.

Shallow marriage, shallow divorce I suppose....


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Vega said:


> This reminds me of the "bait-and-switch" that we often talk about here on TAM as regards to women LOVING sex BEFORE marriage, and how it either dwindles down to nothing (or stops abruptly) shortly AFTER marriage.
> 
> There's a spinoff of a saying that goes something like, "Women wouldn't fake orgasms if men didn't fake *relationships*". Seems to me that men (and yes, _some_ women do this too...) pull the ol' 'bait-and-switch' regarding relationships at least as often as women pull the bait-and-switch regarding sex.
> 
> ...


True, same for men and women; just different topics.

I think it's mostly unconscious.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> True, same for men and women; just different topics.
> 
> I think it's mostly unconscious.


Well, since my late husband told me that a guy "couldn't keep up that charade forever", that told me that he was well aware of what he was doing while he was doing it and for what purpose. 

Perhaps for some it's unconscious. For others, they are very aware of what they're doing.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Vega said:


> So, if a man gives a woman flowers and takes her out to dinner BEFORE marriage and stops AFTER marriage, was it all just a "charade" to him in order to 'win' the 'prize'?
> 
> And likewise, if a woman generously gives bj's BEFORE marriage, and stops AFTER marriage, is it because she "got the guy" and doesn't have to work at it anymore?
> 
> ...


Can't speak to the women's side. From the man's side, did you want the flowers and the dinner out or the mortgage and car payment? 0 Lot's of things change after marriage, sometimes it is bait and switch and some times it is just change.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Lot's of things change after marriage, sometimes it is bait and switch and some times it is just change.


Yes! So why don't some other men understand this when it comes to sex? 



> Can't speak to the women's side. From the man's side, did you want the flowers and the dinner out or the mortgage and car payment? 0


And from the woman' side, does he want lusty sex OR does he want someone to take care of the house, cook, clean, take care of the kids and bring home a paycheck?

I'm sure that many men would ask, "Why can't I have BOTH?" just as many women would be asking, "Why can't I have the mortgage and car payment _*AND*_ flowers and dinners?"


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> Suggesting she go outside the marriage for one sex act is a slippery slope. Today is cos play (or bj in OP'S case). Tomorrow it's something else.


I didn't mean to imply that she go outside of marriage



Lila said:


> If any person, man or woman, wants to make a specific sex act/fetish the hill they are ready to die on, then go all in one way or the other. Get a divorce. Don't be a cake eater.


Agreed, but I think it's worth discussing first before jumping straight to divorce. There seems to be an attitude among some here that if your spouse changes, you're not allowed to work on the problem, you have to accept it or leave. That may well be the eventual result, but I don't think it always needs to be that way. 

Other people are in no position to know how important cos play or bjs are to other people (and cos play anything sure seems weird to me). 

I personally would be more upset by the thoughts behind my wife no longer being willing to give me oral sex than I would be about the lack of the bjs themselves.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Vega said:


> Yes! So why don't some other men understand this when it comes to sex?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I pick both, in either case.

You don't get to pick what your spouse could live without.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Vega said:


> Yes! So why don't some other men understand this when it comes to sex?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sex is nothing but pleasure and togetherness, if presented with that list of trade offs and a list of "sex costs" we'd be happy to cross off the ones we are willing to give up , to help you keep the priorities in order .


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I didn't mean to imply that she go outside of marriage


Then could you clarify what you meant when you said she should attend the next convention by herself? I don't know much about it but Dragon Con, Comic Con, etc...are the equivalent to the hottest bar / night life pick up scene to people that like that sort of thing. That's why it sounded like you were suggesting she go outside the marriage to get her fix. 



Buddy400 said:


> Agreed, but I think it's worth discussing first before jumping straight to divorce. There seems to be an attitude among some here that if your spouse changes, you're not allowed to work on the problem, you have to accept it or leave. That may well be the eventual result, but I don't think it always needs to be that way.


It's definitely worth discussing but recognize that there's a fine line between discussing and trying to convince someone you are right and they are selfish. 



Buddy400 said:


> other people are in no position to know how important cos play or bjs are to other people (and cos play anything sure seems weird to me).


Agreed. Everyone has their 'thing'. 



Buddy400 said:


> i personally would be more upset by the thoughts behind my wife no longer being willing to give me oral sex than I would be about the lack of the bjs themselves.


Usually the reasons are pretty simple. It's when we interpret the reasons as more than what they really are that complicates matters.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> Or are you absolutely determined not to see the other side of the argument?


No, not at all. I get it. It was actually part of a difficult conversation this weekend. 

It does not change the fact that this one issue is the most important relational issue to most men. Explaining that other things are more important to women is not a "therefore sex drops to #29 on the list of priorities". 

Are you absolutely determined not to see that side of the argument? :smile2:

You don't have to make it #1, make it #3 or#4. Expect me to make dinners out and flowers (or whatever) #3 or #4 and we ought to be able to get along for a lifetime no?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

anonmd said:


> No, not at all. I get it. It was actually part of a difficult conversation this weekend.
> 
> It does not change the fact that this one issue is the most important relational issue to most men. Explaining that other things are more important to women is not a "therefore sex drops to #29 on the list of priorities".
> 
> ...


If sex is #1 priority to men, then why can't flowers and dinners be the #1 priority to women?


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Vega said:


> Yes! So why don't some other men understand this when it comes to sex?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because one draws on finite resources and the other does not? If a man can afford fancy stuff for himself, but no gifts for his wife it is a fair comparison.

In a scenario, where the man works and rests and the woman works, does the cooking, cleaning and childcare, the is a clear relation. This would be a rare case.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> True, same for men and women; just different topics.
> 
> I think it's mostly unconscious.


Indeed. People bait and switch themselves with new year resolutions, it is not deliberate.

My ex-wife would look like a extreme bait and swtich. Except, we got married and moved to a new country, so she needed patience and care while she settled in. In enabled her to get comfortable and with having just got married, assume she should not make any effort again. It was not deliberate.

For balance, @blond will now want to want that she was actually cruelly abused because it is the man's fault.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Vega said:


> If sex is #1 priority to men, then why can't flowers and dinners be the #1 priority to women?


It can, I agreed with that. Just don't make sex #29 was the point, it is often the LAST thing women thing about no? 

You keep your #1 and even #2, be open to us crossing off several of the #3 - #10 to make room for our #1, that's all I was saying.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> Because one draws on finite resources and the other does not? .


As someone else pointed out, a flower garden can be planted. Excuse the pun, but it would be 'dirt cheap' to plant. And as for dinners well...you're going to eat anyway. So plan a nice dinner and cook it for her. Doesn't have to be fancy. Just dinner. 



> If a man can afford fancy stuff for himself, but no gifts for his wife it is a fair comparison.


If a man can afford fancy stuff for himself and not his wife, he shouldn't have a wife in the first place.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Vega said:


> As someone else pointed out, a flower garden can be planted. Excuse the pun, but it would be 'dirt cheap' to plant. And as for dinners well...you're going to eat anyway. So plan a nice dinner and cook it for her. Doesn't have to be fancy. Just dinner.
> 
> 
> 
> If a man can afford fancy stuff for himself and not his wife, he shouldn't have a wife in the first place.


I was arguing against a specific comparison. As the second part shows, we pretty much agree. There are people who appreciate effort and those who do not.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Capster said:


> Disagree! It's all to easy for a spouse to get into the same routine whereby any suggestions for new or erotic acts/positions are turned down. Of course it depends on what that particular activity is, but sometimes it takes some coaxing or encouragement by the other person to build interest or confidence. I think it's weak for the partner to say "well, she said no, so I guess I'll never mention it again." Plus, there are plenty of things that take some time to build up the courage to do it, and in the end it can end up being a go-to act in the future by both spouses.
> 
> Let's face it, oral sex is not some off-the-wall activity. Some research has suggested around 3/4 of women give OS to men. It often has a sense of taboo for women (like it did my wife). It may take some time to build that comfort level (it took me 25 years!).


If we are close to our spouse we will know when they are very reluctant and unhappy about something and when we need to leave it alone. I would never ever pressure my husband to do something he was uncomfortable with. Research may or may not be right with that 3/4 of women give BJ to men, but it doesnt say how many of these women actually WANT to do it. It is 'off the wall' to some people. Honestly when I was young guys barely mentioned it, it was the sex itself that they were far more interested in. I am pretty sure its the widespread use of porn and the fact that moral values have got so low that seems to have made some men almost obsessed with it.


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## ZDog377 (May 31, 2015)

Mine has gone down hill significantly since marriage. It will be eight years for us coming up and I don't doubt three kids also plays a factor into it. I can count on one hand the number of times it has happened this past year. She will usually do one as "bargaining" if she wants something. This past time was the first time to completion in a while. If she does do it, it will be maybe for a minute or two and then she wants to use her hand to completion. When we were first dating and before marriage, there were plenty of times I would get stand alone ones. I always mention to her that I would like to go down on her, I've even tried a couple times. She either pushes me away or tells me it doesn't do anything for her.......


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Capster I never mentioned a blue pill or rationing anything. My point is why worry about blow jobs when you are having sex twice a week


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Okguy said:


> Capster I never mentioned a blue pill or rationing anything. My point is why worry about blow jobs when you are having sex twice a week


You think sex twice per week is fine? Based on what and whose standard? Twice per week would be painfully inadequate for me anyway. But you think it's enough by your standard, so OP should not look for any other ways to enjoy sex??

Hence my blue pill comment. You seem like someone who would let his wife control the frequency and means of sexual relations. Again, like it's something to be rationed or something. This, to me, is a blue pill way of thinking.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> If we are close to our spouse we will know when they are very reluctant and unhappy about something and when we need to leave it alone. I would never ever pressure my husband to do something he was uncomfortable with. Research may or may not be right with that 3/4 of women give BJ to men, but it doesnt say how many of these women actually WANT to do it. It is 'off the wall' to some people. Honestly when I was young guys barely mentioned it, it was the sex itself that they were far more interested in. I am pretty sure its the widespread use of porn and the fact that moral values have got so low that seems to have made some men almost obsessed with it.


Oh Diane, you almost had me there! I agree with much of what you said, until you equated OS with low moral values. So your bias is that OS is something that is morally wrong, and only the immoral thoughts of men have created this problem?


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Yea. I do think twice a week would be great since my wife is LD. 25 years ago it was a lot more.


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## Fitnessfan (Nov 18, 2014)

Assuming that your husband is treating you with love and respect in all other aspects of your life together, why would you not want to give him a bj if this is what makes him happy? Whether you love giving bj's or not, if your husband is good to you and this is important to him, I think you should try to make him happy in this way. I just don't get it. You married this man, I assume you love him, and this is important to him so the only reasons I can think of as to why you would stop bj's are: 1) you aren't attracted to him 2) you don't love him or 3) he's an *******.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Okguy said:


> Yea. I do think twice a week would be great since my wife is LD. 25 years ago it was a lot more.


I am quite sure that your LD wife is a nymph compared to mine. But that doesn't define how much sex I have. It defines how much she will or will not enjoy it.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Spouses don't always do what the other spouse wants simply to make them happy. If my wife wanted anal sex I would not feel obligated to do it just to make her happy. Same applies to blow jobs.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Capster you lost me there.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Why can't you have frequent sex just because she is LD?


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Because she is LD


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

We had frequent sex for many years.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Capster said:


> I am quite sure that your LD wife is a nymph compared to mine. But that doesn't define how much sex I have. *It defines how much she will or will not enjoy it.*


Seriously? The bolded statement makes it sound like you don't care one way or the other whether your partner enjoys sex with you. As long as you get what you want out of her, all is good in the world. Is that a correct statement?

I'm not sure what @Okguy thoughts are on the matter but I can tell you there are people, men and women, who would rather chew glass than subject themselves to a sexual experience with a partner who shows absolutely no desire for them or the act. I fall under that category and I'm sure that I'm not alone.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Lila my wife has responsive desire. She is very much into it once we get into it. It's getting started that's the issue.


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## Fitnessfan (Nov 18, 2014)

Okguy said:


> Spouses don't always do what the other spouse wants simply to make them happy. If my wife wanted anal sex I would not feel obligated to do it just to make her happy. Same applies to blow jobs.


Yeah good point.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> But that doesn't define how much sex I have. It defines how much she will or will not enjoy it.


Because only Blue Pills care about something as basic as whether or not their wife enjoys sex.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Capster, you came off the rails there. In a big way. Care to explain what you mean?


yes please do
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> Then could you clarify what you meant when you said she should attend the next convention by herself? I don't know much about it but Dragon Con, Comic Con, etc...are the equivalent to the hottest bar / night life pick up scene to people that like that sort of thing. That's why it sounded like you were suggesting she go outside the marriage to get her fix.


I intended that to mean as a newly single person. I think the possible misinterpretation flitted across my mind as I typed that. I should have paused and re-stated it.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Okguy said:


> Lila my wife has responsive desire. She is very much into it once we get into it. It's getting started that's the issue.


The "she enjoys it when it happens but isn't willing to get started" is the situation that most interests me. Most other situations can't be solved (or I wouldn't be interested in solving them).

But I think this can be solved. Not easy; but possible.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> @Buddy400 would you be willing to share details? What did you say. Did you pick your moment and what tone did you use? Your wife is still self-centered yet she came to understand. Why?
> 
> I read the advice you've given in your post before but don't remember if you discussed what you said to effect a change in your wife. Tone and words count for a great deal. From your other posts, you don't sound angry but puzzled and very loving too. Some men are angry and approach their wives in anger. Both are natural but often get anger and resistance in return.


My wife had an unhappy past before meeting me. She'd started IC a year or so before we met and started making progress but it was more along the lines of "not being so bad" instead of "good". 

I'm a giving person who's not comfortable asking things of others (I don't like to be vulnerable). So I had all the makings of the typical nice guy doormat. But, I'd been in a couple of bad relationships and had only recently started figuring things out; working up the courage to be vulnerable; realizing that it made others happy to make me happy; setting boundaries and prioritizing myself.

In short, it was the perfect time for us to meet each other. Also, I'm a great kisser and took her breathe away by pressing her against the outside of the glass window of the restaurant where we had our first date and ravishing her 

She travels a lot and she's mentioned during periods of extreme turbulence she's realized that she could die peacefully knowing that she gotten everything out of life that she'd ever dreamed of. I'm very happy as well, my basic need seems to be being very good to people I care about and being appreciated (doesn't happen nearly as much as one might imagine).

We have a couple of running "jokes" in the family. When the kids would ask for some of her dinner she would reply with "that's MY food" (whereas I would just hand the kids my entire plate) and that we're so happy because we share a common interest; My wife's happiness is very important to me and my wife's happiness is very important to my wife. She's self-centered but self aware. She's not entirely happy about this, but people are who they are. She tries to do better and generally succeeds but she simply isn't capable of spontaneously caring about my happiness. When I'm unhappy enough for her to notice it, she is VERY concerned.

My thing is blowjobs. It's almost like a taboo. Someone does something for my pleasure while I do nothing for them! . I was sure that I had made it very clear how much they meant to me (which I was later to realize were actually weak and pathetic attempts to get her to read my mind). She'd mention doing it tomorrow and tomorrow..... nothing. And I had plenty of reason to believe that she had no problem giving them. Drove me crazy. Especially because I knew how much she loved me. 

Three or four years ago my libido was starting to wane, so I started testosterone therapy. My libido jumped up which gave me the motivation to try and bring the topic to a head. We had a couple of discussions where I made my desires very clear (in a loving, non-hostile way). Things would pick up for a week or so then tail off again. Now I was really confused and unhappy. This time I was sure I'd done the right thing and clearly stated my needs and, still, nothing.

Finally we had a talk and I got very emotional (which almost never happens), This made enough of an impact that I finally broke through. She said that she had genuinely never understood. I can't imagine how that could be, but I believe her.

Well......... happily ever after. It's been three years or so. I've got to use a crowbar to pull her off me. And it's not one-sided. There's a sexual tension in the air constantly, we're more affectionate, our relationship is closer than ever, there's more (and better ) sex than ever before, she's says she's having the best orgasms of her life........ 

I thought I'd come here share the secret and spread the joy. Unfortunately it seems few couples are starting with anywhere near the marriage we had. Heck, it seems like most people aren't even that fond of their spouse. 

Sorry that was so long, just got started and didn't stop.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> Capster, you came off the rails there. In a big way. Care to explain what you mean?


If a LD spouse would rather eat glass than engage in at least some type of sexually activity with their HD spouse, then perhaps the real issue isn't really the sex drive. Perhaps the issue is that they're just not into their spouse.

On internet forums, articles, and books, there are plenty of examples of supposedly LD women who engage in affairs. But I thought they were LD? It's also interesting how women who supposedly don't give BJ's have no problem performing them on their AP's. So I think a lot of their spouses have to look at themselves as well. 

A LD wife can easily learn to want to please her husband. Sex is more than a physical activity, is it not? Just like Fitnessfan said on the last page, which I agree with, is that if they are into you, they'll want to please you. As the HD spouse, a few years ago I fought that statement. After all, she's LD, it's HER fault, I thought. It's common to want to shift all responsibility to the other person. BUt that doesn't fix the problem.

Can Okguy turn his wife into a raving sex goddess again? Probably not. But he can get to the point where they're doing something more than once per week. I was there once - very infrequent sex, with me searching the internet for a cure for her LDness. Now I do something maybe 5x per week with my LD wife, even stuff that for 25+ years she said she'd never do. I don't think we've ever been more closer, either.

So you may not be able to turn a LD spouse into HD, but you certainly can get to a point where they want to please you, if they are truly into you.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Really? From once a month to several times a week at 65 years old? I don't think so.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Okguy said:


> Really? From once a month to several times a week at 65 years old? I don't think so.


There are too many variables here - to comment on that, I'd have to make a ton of assumptions. You have your **** together (i.e. peak physical shape, successful, confident)? You initiate a lot? You have solid/confident initiations?

I can hear it now. "You initiate every night or every other night and it will piss off a LD wife." Well, there are ways to handle that. Say _with a smirk_ "Dear Abbey, my husband of 30 years is still turned on by me and wants to have sex more often. What ever am I to do?"


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

And your solution is?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Finally we had a talk and I got very emotional (which almost never happens), This made enough of an impact that I finally broke through. She said that she had genuinely never understood. I can't imagine how that could be, but I believe her.
> 
> Well......... happily ever after. It's been three years or so. I've got to use a crowbar to pull her off me. And it's not one-sided. There's a sexual tension in the air constantly, we're more affectionate, our relationship is closer than ever, there's more (and better ) sex than ever before, she's says she's having the best orgasms of her life........
> 
> ...


Buddy, reading this actually brought tears to my eyes. You finally 'connected' with her on _her_ level; the emotional one. 

It didn't seem to come from _anger_ (which is where a lot of men make the mistake) or manipulation, but of TRUE _VULNERABILTY_. Your feelings about it were from your _heart!_ 



> Heck, it seems like most people aren't even that fond of their spouse.


I tend to agree with you. Makes me wonder how many people TRULY marry for _love_...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

@Buddy400 You and your wife have complimentary problems. I've read that the most successful and happiest marriages have problems of that type. She teaches you to ask for what you need, something that you needed to learn. You teach her to be less self-centered, something that she needed to learn. 

The best thing is that you both are willing to grow.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> The "she enjoys it when it happens but isn't willing to get started" is the situation that most interests me.


Buddy, I think that some women are more 'traditional' than others. They may believe that the man is supposed to 'pursue'. 

She may very well want sex, but her belief system may be what's keeping her from approaching YOU.

Also, if she has turned you down before, she may feel afraid that if she approaches you, you'll do the same thing, and she wouldn't be able to handle the rejection...OR, you may start to look at her as more of a 'slVT'.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Vega said:


> Buddy, I think that some women are more 'traditional' than others. They may believe that the man is supposed to 'pursue'.
> 
> She may very well want sex, but her belief system may be what's keeping her from approaching YOU.
> 
> Also, if she has turned you down before, she may feel afraid that if she approaches you, you'll do the same thing, and she wouldn't be able to handle the rejection...OR, you may start to look at her as more of a 'slVT'.


I've never actually been in the situation where "she enjoys it when it happens but isn't willing to get started". I've been in plenty of other situations, but not that one.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

It's called responsive desire


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

Starstarfish said:


> I guess I don't understand if your wife works until 4 and you make your own hours, why do the two of you have zero time in the evening that can fit some television/talking/etc time and sex?
> 
> What time do the kids go to bed?
> 
> Also, this whole thing about housework ... you stay home multiple days a week from work for that purpose. So are you doing that for her or to bond with your child? Because it seems like you want to say you are doing that for her in a convert sex quid pro quo, when really that's only fair if you are working less.





Starstarfish said:


> I'm still waiting to hear why do they have so little time together that quickie blowjobs is the solution to their sex life when the wife only works until 4 and he works part-time and makes his own hours.


I'm coming back, reading through, but this was enough to make me stop to make sure I didn't miss it. 

I work 55-65 hours a week, FAR more than my wife does. It's the nature of self employment. I get up at 5am most days and often go back to work after she's asleep. On Saturdays I work all day, usually 12-14 hours. Sunday AMs we spend together and I usually work afternoons, but not always. We have an adult study group Sunday evenings, which we both enjoy immensely.

I spend two full days a week at home with my son. Wednesdays and Fridays. It would be easier work wise if I didn't do that but I so often feel that I missed too much with our first child and I don't want that feeling again. If I can't make time for my son, what's the benefit of working for myself? Might as well get a 9-5 and punch a clock. There'd be a lot less uncertainty and I'd probably take home the same money.


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> OP would like more sex, but he is cool with 2 times a week, He is wondering the real reason why BJs have stopped. For some reason this has turned into stand alone forced and manipulated BJs with no reciprocation, no matter how many times he states this isn't the case.
> 
> It's like we are trying to help solve other people's sex issues and not his question.


Reading through the thread I had that thought about a dozen times. How did this turn into an indictment of my intentions? At the top of every page in this forum it says, "Please limit discussions to those asking for help with a problem and those offering advice" and yet 80% of the posts have no advice whatsoever and are just cruel commentary about sex/oral sex/frequency/etc. that have nothing to do with me or my OP.

This week I decided to like the last bit of housework I didn't have a hand in before, laundry. It's actually pretty satisfying to leave nothing undone, I have to admit. It's kind of like checking the very last box off a grocery store checklist.

I also have been much more forward about oral to her. Three/four times since last time I posted here. Once before sex (she also did some), to two orgasms prior to sex on Sunday, and then yesterday out of the blue because she seemed stressed. She has resisted letting me as she always has, but I've been able to convince her obviously. She's admitted to enjoying it thoroughly. I see no reason not to continue.

Also, as for the dating your wife and keeping the romance alive comments, go elsewhere. I challenge you to find a bigger romantic than me here or anywhere else. I date her, I romance her, I surprise her. Her co-workers gush over the romance. So let's leave that crap aside. I was a romantic before we married, I'm still a romantic now. That hasn't changed. If anything, I may do more romantic things now than I ever did then because I can afford to do so financially far more than I ever could before. Being romantic is genuinely fun for me, too, so there's not going to be an issue going forward; I'll never stop being that way.

So, who'd like to step up next and tell me to 'deal with it', 'stop expecting unreciprocated, one-sided oral sex', or tell me I'm basically just an ass?

I can't even describe how absurd this thread has become. I wanted simple advice from people I hoped would be sympathetic and helpful. Instead,... this.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

@fatherof2husbandof1 why are you giving her oral with no reciprocation? Conditions are ideal for her to give you oral sex. She is aroused and satisfied and she can do it. How about getting into the habit of mutually enjoyable sex? Have oral sex sessions, you give her and then she gives you. You seem to have solved 1/2 of the problem, her accepting oral sex now work on the other half. 

Can you do that?


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## fatherof2husbandof1 (Apr 22, 2016)

Catherine602 said:


> @fatherof2husbandof1 why are you giving her oral with no reciprocation? Conditions are ideal for her to give you oral sex. She is aroused and satisfied and she can do it. How about getting into the habit of mutually enjoyable sex? Have oral sex sessions, you give her and then she gives you. You seem to have solved 1/2 of the problem, her accepting oral sex now work on the other half.
> 
> Can you do that?


Because she enjoys it? 

If you can describe a way for me to move from where I'm at to where I want to be, I'm all ears. If she doesn't offer it even after I give it to her first, what would you suggest? I'm not going to beg. And, even if I were willing to beg, I wouldn't be satisfied with it as a result of begging. The goal is that she _wants_ to do it. I'm taking the steps that I can think of to help her feel more amorous towards me and hoping that it naturally progresses towards desire.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

I do oral all the time on my wife and she rarely reciprocates. I enjoy doing her so much it doesn't bother me.


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> I also have been much more forward about oral to her. Three/four times since last time I posted here. Once before sex (she also did some), to two orgasms prior to sex on Sunday, and then yesterday out of the blue because she seemed stressed. She has resisted letting me as she always has, but I've been able to convince her obviously. She's admitted to enjoying it thoroughly. I see no reason not to continue.
> 
> Also, as for the dating your wife and keeping the romance alive comments, go elsewhere. I challenge you to find a bigger romantic than me here or anywhere else. I date her, I romance her, I surprise her. Her co-workers gush over the romance. So let's leave that crap aside. I was a romantic before we married, I'm still a romantic now. That hasn't changed. If anything, I may do more romantic things now than I ever did then because I can afford to do so financially far more than I ever could before. Being romantic is genuinely fun for me, too, so there's not going to be an issue going forward; I'll never stop being that way.
> 
> ...


Did you try a straightforward conversation with her about it?


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## Audrey1 (May 2, 2016)

First time using a forum.. Hope I did this right.

You say that the sex is excellent, but are you sure about that?
I've been married 18 yrs and I've always given oral, a couple of times a week but this last year he has shown less interest in pleasing so the oral sex on my part has gone down to 1x a week.. And it's really because I'm not pleased.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> Because she enjoys it?
> 
> If you can describe a way for me to move from where I'm at to where I want to be, I'm all ears. If she doesn't offer it even after I give it to her first, what would you suggest? I'm not going to beg. And, even if I were willing to beg, I wouldn't be satisfied with it as a result of begging. The goal is that she _wants_ to do it. I'm taking the steps that I can think of to help her feel more amorous towards me and hoping that it naturally progresses towards desire.


You can definitely build to the point where they are given lovingly by her. But your ideal that she have so much desire that she lovingly wants to please you this way, well it doesn't always start off like this.

IMHO, over time women get such a stigma about BJ's that is becomes a huge psychological hurdle for them. I also admit that men also seem to make a big deal out of this one sex act, but rightly or wrongly BJ's have become so common that the lack of them may wave a red flag in the minds of us men. Like it or not, OS is an activity practiced by the majority of people in today's world - it's not some rare act. "So why shouldn't I get to enjoy this?" we think.

I, too, talked about this for year, no decades, with my wife. I didn't hound her or anything, but any time I mentioned it, you can see the resolve on her face as she sternly said "Never!" 

But back to my original point, in order to get them freely and lovingly (for lack of a better word), you first must get the first one. My first one was far from loving. It was more like pissed off. But I kept my frame, refraining from saying "It's okay honey, you don't have to." I think once she broke through this psychological barrier, she found it wasn't the mountain that she made it out to be. The next night she offered another one and it was more romantic (for lack of a better word) and not angry.

So long story short, don't expect everything the first time. It may take some less than ideal word in order to break through that barrier. We went from none in 25 years to now several per week. I almost dare say that she prefers them now.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

fatherof2husbandof1 said:


> Because she enjoys it?
> 
> If you can describe a way for me to move from where I'm at to where I want to be, I'm all ears. If she doesn't offer it even after I give it to her first, what would you suggest? I'm not going to beg. And, even if I were willing to beg, I wouldn't be satisfied with it as a result of begging. The goal is that she _wants_ to do it. I'm taking the steps that I can think of to help her feel more amorous towards me and hoping that it naturally progresses towards desire.


If she orgasms after oral then she should still feel aroused. You can suggest oral sex for both of you. In some way let her know that the one sided oral sex is frustrating to you and suggest mutual oral sex.

First her then you. If she not respond positively, keep giving for a finite period of time and see if the idea grows on her. I'll let you know that I don't get one sided sex if there is such a simple alternative.

I would stop giving. You expressed your dissatisfaction and suggested an alternative. She can still get oral sex if she is willing to make it mutual. 

Your posts come across as snappy. Do you snap or get angry with your wife over sex? If you do, try to stop. Sex should be a loving intimate act. Hard to do with an angry person.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
This doesn't seem universally true. After my wife has had an O, she is not very aroused and less interested in continued sexual activity. (she almost never wants another). I don't know how common this is




Catherine602 said:


> If she orgasms after oral then she should still feel aroused.
> snip
> .


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## cent130130 (Nov 6, 2011)

Sorry to hear that another sap has joined the frustrated husbands club. One would think there would be more wives who genuinely work to understand their husband's needs and desires, and have a genuine interest, to the degree possible, in meeting those needs and be certain their husband's cup was full in the intimate part of their relationship. And wives wonder why pornography is proliferating at such an incredible rate?? (No, ladies, I am not placing all of the blame for the proliferation of pornography on women, but to say the issue is entirely the man's problem is naive).

Their is no doubt that men and women very poorly understand each other's points of view, it always falls back on communication, and a genuine effort to understand the other gender's position, through their eyes, not our own. In my experience (50+ yo and 30+ years married to the same woman) women very poorly understand their men, don't seem to feel a need to do so and, when all of the conversation, discussion and comprise is over, feel their, i.e. the woman's, position on matters of intimacy, has the moral high ground....


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

The biggest obstacle to sex, especially sex that involves effort, is marriage.

It's not like this is any great news.

You want great sex and lots of BJs, then don't get married, it's that simple. 

If you're already married and you're in the same position as the poor guy who started this thread, you have two options.

1- live with it and understand it aint never gonna change no matter how much you complain/threaten/work hard around the house/do other things to please her.

2- divorce her and get a girlfriend. 

I know what I did. It wasn't for that reason but I can tell you from personal first hand experience that post divorce sex is readily available and there is a lot of enthusiasm out there in the world of single women who get more sexually active rather than less as they get older- and we're talking 40s and 50s here. I'll report back in another 7 years about how it is in the 60s but I have no reason to think it suddenly gets worse.

Marriage is a sex killer. There's no question about it. Now some may read this and shake their heads and think "marriage didn't damage my sex life" and I will nod and agree with you. Mine didn't either. There were other problems of course but sex wasn't one of them.

But we're in the minority.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Marriage has many areas of compromise . Sex is only one of them.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Mclane, I tend to agree with you from the group of my friends that have been divorced and been back on the market, they typically have more sex than I do or any of my married friends. I also have some divorced friends that really want to get married again and I tell them WHY? If you have your kids from your first marriage, makes no sense to get married again. I know I wouldn't if anything ever happened to my wife. 

Cent130130, totally agree with you, although I also know there are always exceptions to the rule. I started a post about sexually naive or selfish, your points are much of what I was getting at. My wife, despite discussions with her about my needs, that doesn't seem to matter. I have to accept that our sex life is going to revolve around what fits her needs or lack of need for sex. Her belief system is simply-men are always horny, women have to many other important issues on their plate, sex is not important-unless you are trying for a child. Otherwise, it is something you do here and there because the husband wants it. She believes all women are just like she is, and all guys are just like I am. She believes that women that are horny like men are ****ty women.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Well yea you will have more sex in a new relationship. That's a no brainer. The problem is maintaining that.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

OKguy-

If sex is not maintained and you are not married, you simply break up-no strings attached and find a new relationship. What would become interesting is if the woman starts playing hardball-I am not having more sex with you unless you marry me-even if you really care deeply and don't want to give her up (sex is the best in your life), you know if you get married the sex is going to diminish more than likely. Again, you probably have to part ways but that is the ability you have being single that you don't have being married-there is a LOT more involved obviously to just break up/divorce when married.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Yea. There is a lot more involved when you are married. When I was dating the relationship ended way before the sex did.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

PAPS18 said:


> OKguy-
> 
> If sex is not maintained and you are not married, you simply break up-no strings attached and find a new relationship. What would become interesting is if the woman starts playing hardball-I am not having more sex with you unless you marry me-even if you really care deeply and don't want to give her up (sex is the best in your life), you know if you get married the sex is going to diminish more than likely. Again, you probably have to part ways but that is the ability you have being single that you don't have being married-there is a LOT more involved obviously to just break up/divorce when married.


If a female member poster a similarly insulting post about men, she would be castegated. You are appearently able to live this emotionally transient life, because sex is the most important thing in your life. You view women as interchangable sex objects not whole people. 

I read this a lot to encourage men to D. Maybe I know only loser D men but I don't think they would agree with you. 

I'm sure there is easy sex if you hang out at bars often enough to get lucky or a sure bet hire a prostitute/call girl or if they are really lucky, pick up a women who needs money and a place to live. 

What you are saying is terrible and confirms the notion that men only care about sex. Words are powerful, women hear. There is a basis for a wife believing this about her husband. 

We like to ignore that and blame the whole concept on women. There are apprearently some men who are this way and they are married at some point. 

It is possible that sex problems in marriage are not about sex only and may be due to the man and woman. D will not solve relationship problems. Women can't be picked out like a pair of socks. 

You have to relate to them like human beings and they don't just give because you want, you have to give as much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

PAPS18 said:


> OKguy-
> 
> If sex is not maintained and you are not married, you simply break up-no strings attached and find a new relationship. What would become interesting is if the woman starts playing hardball-I am not having more sex with you unless you marry me-even if you really care deeply and don't want to give her up (sex is the best in your life), you know if you get married the sex is going to diminish more than likely. Again, you probably have to part ways but that is the ability you have being single that you don't have being married-there is a LOT more involved obviously to just break up/divorce when married.


 There are people who dont believe in sex before marriage(as we dont) so not sure how saying that means you should break up. Also why does sex have to diminish in marriage? Ours hasnt. if ti has it may be just as much the mans fault as the womans. 
Even if my husband was unable to ever have sex again I wouldnt end the marriage/relationship.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

PAPS18 said:


> Mclane, I tend to agree with you from the group of my friends that have been divorced and been back on the market, they typically have more sex than I do or any of my married friends. I also have some divorced friends that really want to get married again and I tell them WHY? If you have your kids from your first marriage, makes no sense to get married again. I know I wouldn't if anything ever happened to my wife.
> 
> Cent130130, totally agree with you, although I also know there are always exceptions to the rule. I started a post about sexually naive or selfish, your points are much of what I was getting at. My wife, despite discussions with her about my needs, that doesn't seem to matter. I have to accept that our sex life is going to revolve around what fits her needs or lack of need for sex. Her belief system is simply-men are always horny, women have to many other important issues on their plate, sex is not important-unless you are trying for a child. Otherwise, it is something you do here and there because the husband wants it. She believes all women are just like she is, and all guys are just like I am. She believes that women that are horny like men are ****ty women.


So you think its better and more enjoyable to have sex with multiple partners than to be in a good marriage with someone you love dearly and who loves you? Wow. I couldnt disagree more, unless you think that life is just about getting loads of sex no matter who with. Most men I know who have been divorced and widowed were married again a year later, which goes to show that most men dont like being alone and like being married. Men are also happier healthier and live longer than unmarried men studies have shown, so clearly its not that good being single.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

If the issue is just understanding why there are no more blowjobs, and not trying to convince her to resume them, then it's just a communication issue. 

Simply ask her outright one day, when she's in a good mood and relaxed and there's nothing else pressing. Make sure you word it as pure information seeking, not looking for ammunition for trying to convince her to start up again. Just a no-pressure "Hey, I miss oral sex, and I don't understand how you're never in the mood for it anymore, when you used to seem to enjoy it. Maybe I'd feel better if you enlightened me on why it stopped. I'm not going to try to convince you to start again, but I really just need to know what changed because it's been bothering me to be confused about it." Stuff like that. Reassure her that you'll still love her no matter what her answer is.

I think she was either faking her enjoyment of it in the early part of your relationship so you wouldn't dump her, or something unpleasant happened later to change her mind.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Well said Diana


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> If a female member poster a similarly insulting post about men, she would be castegated. You are appearently able to live this emotionally transient life, because sex is the most important thing in your life. You view women as interchangable sex objects not whole people.
> 
> I read this a lot to encourage men to D. Maybe I know only loser D men but I don't think they would agree with you.
> 
> ...



Can you imagine a woman being told to dump her guy because he has some ED? Or his drive is down because he's working to pay bills?

Or even better, that she should dump him if he isn't able to financially bring to the table what he used to? 

The poster you're addressing certainly doesn't view sex as a way of connecting to his wife, just as the most convenient hole.

Fortunately I think many men do not see it like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Catherine602 said:


> If a female member poster a similarly insulting post about men, she would be castegated. You are appearently able to live this emotionally transient life, because sex is the most important thing in your life. You view women as interchangable sex objects not whole people.
> 
> I read this a lot to encourage men to D. Maybe I know only loser D men but I don't think they would agree with you.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this post. If sex is your ONLY goal then why date at all!? Just hire a call girl or join a sex group and be done with the whole dating thing. I enjoy sex way more when I am emotionally attached to my partner. Yes, a ONS is okay, but it's rarely as fulfilling as sex with someone you are attached to emotionally. 

Dating someone, then breaking up just so you can move to another partner is kind of cruel. 

I am perfectly happy in marriage. I don't need new women every month to be happy. My wife is LD, but I am okay with that. We have had sex three days in a row now which is a record I think, but I'm not complaining. I'm going to go for four tonight!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> So you think its better and more enjoyable to have sex with multiple partners than to be in a good marriage with someone you love dearly and who loves you? Wow. I couldnt disagree more, unless you think that life is just about getting loads of sex no matter who with. Most men I know who have been divorced and widowed were married again a year later, which goes to show that most men dont like being alone and like being married. Men are also happier healthier and live longer than unmarried men studies have shown, so clearly its not that good being single.


I'd much rather be in a good marriage than have multiple partners. However, if the sex is significantly lacking or mismatched, then IMO it's no longer a good marriage. I would leave a sexless marriage, because I KNOW I can do better and be much happier. In that case, I'd date - and have multiple partners over time - until I found someone who was both compatible in all important ways, including sexually. At this point, I might not marry again, but would happily have a LTR and would consider marriage if things continued to go well.

I'm fortunate in that my second marriage is fantastic in every way AND continues to include lots of wonderful sex even after 16 years - it IS possible to continue to have a great sex life, but it doesn't seem to be common in many/most marriages.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Leaving a marriage because of incompatibility is the right of any free human being. I doubt that dating and trying out different women is as easy as a Google search for a woman with the preferred bra size. 

Finding and keeping a loving relationship is not a spectator sport and the man is not the only one doing the selection or rejection. 

Are women really lined up and fighting to be first in line for a tryout by any man who fancies her?. I just can't understand where this comes from. Men claim to have more success than they actually have but this seems way out there. 

If men bring the attitude That their wives are easily replaceable then they expect the wife to work to keep them happy. They don't need to do anything except work and come home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> Leaving a marriage because of incompatibility is the right of any free human being. I doubt that dating and trying out different women is as easy as a Google search for a woman with the preferred bra size.
> 
> Finding and keeping a loving relationship is not a spectator sport and the man is not the only one doing the selection or rejection.
> 
> ...


I've read other posts by PAPS18 and he doesn't seem like a guy that just expects his wife to service him (that doesn't mean that he comes off well here).

However, women losing interest in sex in longer relationships does look like it's a "thing". If the husband is doing the same things he used to do; if he still makes an effort to satisfy her needs; she may still lose enthusiasm for sex. This is simply because the newness of a relationship can be a large part of a woman's sexuality. It isn't a quid pro quo. She's not necessarily having sex less because she's "getting back at him"; she may just not want as much sex now as she used to. She's not trying to make her husband unhappy; she really doesn't spend much time thinking about his happiness one way or the other.

I'm sure that there is a female equivalent where the husband stops putting effort into doing things to make his wife happy that he did in the early days. If that happens do we tell the wife that if she starts putting out more then he'll be more inclined to stop watching sports in his underwear while drinking a six pack and start taking her out to romantic dinners?

Some people (men and women) are just givers. They just naturally care about their partner's happiness. It's who they are. The givers give; the takers take. Eventually the giver resents doing all the giving and none of the taking while the takers just keep obliviously watching the game in their underwear (or spending all their time on their cell phones). Takers don't function the same way givers do. They need to be given some motivation to change.

The husband who cares about his wife's happiness doesn't spend endless hours in front of the TV swilling beer and farting. 

The answer is not for the givers to give more.

It's pointless to complain that takers only take.

The givers have to make sure that they don't give to much of themselves. They need to give the takers a reason to consider giving occasionally.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Many relationships start out with great frequent sex and many if not most become less frequent as time marches on. Sex can still be great but may not be as frequent as one might want. If you are in an otherwise good marriage why would you leave in search of more frequent sex? While you may get it initially you may well end up in the same situation you left.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Okguy said:


> Many relationships start out with great frequent sex and many if not most become less frequent as time marches on. Sex can still be great but may not be as frequent as one might want. If you are in an otherwise good marriage why would you leave in search of more frequent sex? While you may get it initially you may well end up in the same situation you left.


There are other things that should matter besides sex. There are other people in the relationship that need to be considered. 

Are the odds high that a D man will get sex and bj on demand? Doesn't that mean that a wife is not worth anything because it's less trouble to live without her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Okguy said:


> Many relationships start out with great frequent sex and many if not most become less frequent as time marches on. Sex can still be great but may not be as frequent as one might want. If you are in an otherwise good marriage why would you leave in search of more frequent sex? While you may get it initially you may well end up in the same situation you left.


What works for us is that we make sure our lives don't become predictable and routine in general. We learn new things together. There is something about helping each other succeed. 

We enrolled our children in only one activity in the summer. You avoid hrs in driving and busy work. Besides, although children are important members of the family they should not overindulge. We go on enriching trips with them instead and learn about nature and people. 

It doesn't t take a lot of money to keep life from becoming mundane . Nature and parks are free, becoming an expert cook cost nothing, and decreasing the number of children's activities will save time and money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Mclane said:


> The biggest obstacle to sex, especially sex that involves effort, is marriage.
> 
> It's not like this is any great news.
> 
> ...


Seriously? 

I'm married, have great sex and will give my husband oral morning noon and night if he wants it. Marriage made our sex better if anything!


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

frusdil said:


> Seriously?
> 
> I'm married, have great sex and will give my husband oral morning noon and night if he wants it. Marriage made our sex better if anything!


Great! There are exceptions to every rule. My marriage was almost 20 years in duration and the sex including oral was great right up to and even during our divorce.

But many suffer. Especially over time.

How long you been married for?

By the way if things ever go south drop me a pm. Just kidding. Mostly.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> If a female member poster a similarly insulting post about men, she would be castegated. You are appearently able to live this emotionally transient life, because sex is the most important thing in your life. You view women as interchangable sex objects not whole people.
> 
> I read this a lot to encourage men to D. Maybe I know only loser D men but I don't think they would agree with you.
> 
> ...


To be fair, when men post such a post they are usually castigated by some, not all. When women post the equivalent, they are castigated by some, but not all. I have posted where is seems most of what I write is caveats and then told off for making a generalization.

While he may have written crudely, I did not get the impression that he was writing about women generally, but only some. There are plenty of manipulative people out there, men and women, who have to play games to make the world fit to their inner screw-ups. 

Whoever is the least needy regarding any aspect of a relationship has the most power. In a healthy relationship, there is not power struggle, so this does not matter. When people are obsessed with their own weakness, it comes out. It might be that men try and control my dictating rules and financial control, women would perhaps use sex and their husbands need for that. This does not relate to men or women, but to people acting in such a manner.

I do not believe the post was intended in the way you read it (I could well be wrong). I tend to hesitate on giving advice on relationships with men as I have never had a relationship with a man. However, I am very wise on relationships with women as I have made loads and loads of stupid mistakes (irony fully intended). I think the post was coming from the same perspective.

Otherwise, we do have plenty of posters who believe that problems in relationships are always the fault of the other sex. We also have some men who believe that they can master relationships and control them so they always work, which is also a little unhealthy.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> So you think its better and more enjoyable to have sex with multiple partners than to be in a good marriage with someone you love dearly and who loves you? Wow. I couldnt disagree more, unless you think that life is just about getting loads of sex no matter who with. Most men I know who have been divorced and widowed were married again a year later, which goes to show that most men dont like being alone and like being married. Men are also happier healthier and live longer than unmarried men studies have shown, so clearly its not that good being single.


I was married. She is not a bad person, but she had her own things to work out which meant she not no interest or capacity or be concerned about me in the least. It was a lonely and miserable time. I am currently seeing people casually, but am started to feel really valued and loved in a way I have not felt for many years. From having sex every few months to more than once a day has helped in that, along with conversation, spending time together, being emotionally open and helping each other.

The studies are mixed. Married men are typically earning more and healthier. That could show that marriage is wonderful for them, or that jobless, unhealthy men are going to struggle to get married. It is probably a bit of both. 

The healthiest men are often those that have been married and divorced. That could show that women are terrible, or reflect that men who got married are likely to have the income for it and be fairly healthy, then have less responsibility. I am visibly healthier than when I was married, I have far more time and money and can take the time to exercise and eat properly, which was not possible before, as well as being in a more emotionally healthy environment. That is not a typical of men, there are also plenty of women who are better off divorced.

For most people, a happy relationship with someone you deeply care about and someone who cares about you is the best way. 

In the post you reply to, the last line does make me rise an eye-brow.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Can you imagine a woman being told to dump her guy because he has some ED? Or his drive is down because he's working to pay bills?
> 
> Or even better, that she should dump him if he isn't able to financially bring to the table what he used to?
> 
> ...


I can imagine it. I can imagine both of those things. However, that is from very selfish people.

I can certainly imagine the advice being to dump a man who is not willing to provide financially, unless he gets his way, or if he thinks him providing would be exploitation. Clearly, such a man would be a terrible match and thankfully there are very few of them. Equally, there are some women, but thankfully few, who will withhold sexual affection unless they get their way or treat expectation of sexual intimacy as being a bit rapey. It is very rare, but manifestations of the same attitude.

In the case of the OP, if he resents giving oral sex he should not give it. If he wants to receive oral sex, he can be explicit in that, but little more. If it is a sign of some deeper problem, then look into it. 

Again, I am not familiar with the writings of the poster to whom you reply, so I am sorry that I might well be missing context. Also to @Catherine602 @lifeistooshort @Diana7


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

frusdil said:


> Seriously?
> 
> I'm married, have great sex and will give my husband oral morning noon and night if he wants it. Marriage made our sex better if anything!


*frus: Regarding the apparent openness of loving sex within your marriage, well let's just say that regarding any possibility of a third marriage for Ol' Arb, that as a prerequisite for that to ever occur again, then "I'll have what you're having"!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Mclane said:


> The biggest obstacle to sex, especially sex that involves effort, is marriage.
> 
> It's not like this is any great news.
> 
> ...


Marriage can be a sex killer, but clearly it is not a direct link.

Once married, people can think they no longer have to make any effort. They have "made it" and that part of their life is done. For all I ridicule @MachoMcCoy, this is what he writes about men doing.

Sexual intimacy, good communication and sensitivity to your partners needs are part of a healthy relationship and neither are automatic, effort is needed (people who think they are naturally amazing at any of these are often amongst the worst).

There are plenty of people who make effort and have a partner who makes an effort and a great, fulfilling relationship generally results.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

I believe I might have caused some anger with my post and if so my apologies. I think Mr The Other did a good job in summarizing my thoughts IF I were to be single again, see below. I don't agree with him that you can't have a good marriage without a match in the sex department-I think you can but certainly I believe the person that has to compromise or do without sex can become resentful-it takes a lot of positive thinking to sometimes get away from all the negative that can build up over time. Let me add, I have no intentions of being single again, I love my wife more than anyone in the world and our relationship is based on a lot more than sex. That being said, the sexual part of our relationship is frustrating and as thus, if I were single again and looking back on my marriage, I would be seeking someone that was more into sex and it would take a lot of thought and conversation for me to ever get married again. 

I'd much rather be in a good marriage than have multiple partners.... In that case, I'd date - and have multiple partners over time - until I found someone who was both compatible in all important ways, including sexually. At this point, I might not marry again, but would happily have a LTR and would consider marriage if things continued to go well.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

helpthisguy86 said:


> In my experience most women don't like giving oral sex due to the fact that they get nothing out of it.


Sorry, I don't get this.
If I give my wife oral and get her writhing with pleasure, I get ALOT out of it.


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## Lurkster (Feb 8, 2016)

UMP said:


> Sorry, I don't get this.
> If I give my wife oral and get her writhing with pleasure, I get ALOT out of it.


Absolutely!

A whole lot!
There's been times when Mrs. Lurkster O's while I'm giving her oral, I have spontaneously O'd myself! No touching or anything. Just BOOM! 

:grin2:


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

helpthisguy86 said:


> In my experience most women don't like giving oral sex due to the fact that they get nothing out of it. Unless they are dating of course, which is the usual bait and switch tactic which is one of many things I fell prey to with my XW.



You're not meeting the right women. 

Believe it or not some women like giving head because they get a turn on out of turning on their guy.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Lurkster said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> A whole lot!
> There's been times when Mrs. Lurkster O's while I'm giving her oral, I have spontaneously O'd myself! No touching or anything. Just BOOM!
> ...


Hehe this has happened to us too...my hubby is darn good at oral and he's had me breathlessly asking for more on more than one occasion. I was so into it that he got so excited that boom, he came too lol.

I thought that was hot :wink2:


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## DrSher (Jul 17, 2016)

I have never dated a girl that doesn't give head. If we had sex and she didn't give head, I would simply not call her again. I don't do anal, bondage or all that stuff, but would also like to take another girl to bed now&then.


I have been married to my wife for 10 years and the sex has never been better.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm sure I've weighed in on this thread somewhere in the past 17 pages, and probably with the same thoughts, but...

Oral sex is part of sex as a whole, to me. For both men and women. It's foreplay, for one. Especially important, IMO, when one gets a little older and women require a little more lubrication prior to PIV, and perhaps a man requires a little more stimulation to achieve a good erection.

Many women, as we know, don't O from PIV. Therefore oral stimulation is almost a requirement. Sure, you can stimulate manually, or with toys, but neither of those, to me, are particularly intimate.

Which brings me to my next point - intimacy. Sexually speaking, there's not much else that achieves the level of intimacy one gets when pleasuring your partner. PIV is definitely intimate (or can be), but both partners are being stimulated simultaneously. To me, spending that time stimulating only your partner is more intimate. It shows your partner that you care about their stimulation and pleasure.

Like many other men who have weighed in here about this, I too receive immense amounts of pleasure and satisfaction by performing oral sex on my partner. I'm directly responsible for it, and that's powerful. I see much the same thing from some women, who receive intense amounts of satisfaction and pleasure from performing oral sex on their partners.

That, to me, is what sex is about. It's not just about you, nor is it just about them, but there are definitely times where it CAN be just about them, or just about you. On the odd occasion that I perform oral sex on my wife without any reciprocation or PIV, I feel great. Many men and women do. Sex isn't always about the orgasm to many of us. It's certainly a big part, but it doesn't always have to be present for both partners, IMO.

The issue that I find most prevalent, especially among women, is that with oral sex (specifically BJ's), is that they have somehow reversed the feeling of power, or empowerment, in their minds. Granted, this is not difficult to do, so it's hard to blame women who see it this way. Between porn and overly aggressive males, it's easy to understand why many women feel that BJ's are somewhat demeaning - or CAN be.

My whole stance on this is that the person (male or female) performing the oral sex is THE ONE IN CHARGE. For women, you have your partners most sensitive and precious body part in your hands and your mouth. Men would rather lose an arm or a leg than their penis, and here it is, between all those teeth, at the mercy of the giver. The man isn't in control - though some like to think they are. And with either gender being the giver, it's them who is in control of speed, tempo, pressure, and ultimately, when the receiver orgasms. That's control and power right there.

I've always felt that giving oral sex, regardless of gender, puts that person in control. PIV sex is decidedly less so, especially for women. It's the man who typically dictates PIV, and the woman who has to tell them to slow down, speed up, go deeper, etc. That's not control - that's making requests.


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