# So, you're thinking of having an affair...



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

I have never had an affair nor has my spouse ever had an affair. But I know many here have. I would like for those of you who have been WS's (wayward spouses) to respond in this thread. I would like to see you give any words of wisdom, warning, reassurance, or even just relate your story here concerning what the outcome was of your affair. Is your life better or worse? Are you happy with the choices you made? What would you do over if you had a chance? 

I would love to be able to link back to this thread and let those who are contemplating an affair read about what it is they are about to purchase.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

You may find a lot of WS's justify their betrayals. I know mine did. That can be pretty hurtful to those who are freshly betrayed.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

I would surmise that the majority of people who fall into affairs didn't actually "think" about it or plan on it. As cliche as it sounds, the "I never meant for this to happen" comment is probably true in most cases. Not an excuse, but true nonetheless. Therefore, perhaps this thread should be directed as a warning to any person who is feeling neglected or resentful that their needs aren't being met, as it seems this is often the precursor to people finding themselves having an affair from what I read here.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> I would surmise that the majority of people who fall into affairs didn't actually "think" about it or plan on it. As cliche as it sounds, the "I never meant for this to happen" comment is probably true in most cases.


Hmmmm...... When someone engages in activities like fb messaging with people of the other gender, flirting at work, texts/emails.... they fully understand where it may lead. Then they plan to meet- be it innocent or not, they fully understand again where it may lead. Then they make a _decision_ to betray their spouse. To me, that's as good as "thinking about it". A betrayal is a process. It starts long before the first emailing or text with the person they betray with. It starts in their mind. They are open and susceptible to betrayal long before it starts to happen. In my mind, that's good enough as "thinking about it". People who betray their spouses are pretty much quitters on their spouse and frankly I have no respect for them as people.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

sandc said:


> I have never had an affair nor has my spouse ever had an affair. But I know many here have. I would like for those of you who have been WS's (wayward spouses) to respond in this thread. I would like to see you give any words of wisdom, warning, reassurance, or even just relate your story here concerning what the outcome was of your affair. Is your life better or worse? Are you happy with the choices you made? What would you do over if you had a chance?
> 
> I would love to be able to link back to this thread and let those who are contemplating an affair read about what it is they are about to purchase.


Well my story is linked in my signature so I won't rehash it here but I will answer the questions posed:

Is my life better? Yes. My wife and I are successfully reconciling and have a much better marriage than we did before. My wife will go so far as to say "it was worth it." We are over two years post dday, I say "reconciling" because I don't think reconciliation is something that is ever completely finished.

Am I happy with the choices I made? Some yes others no. I hate the choices I made to have an emotional affair. I hate that I let my wife down. I hate that I let myself down. I am happy with the choices I made to end my EA and recommit myself to my wife and marriage.

Would I do it over again? Not in a million years, not for anything, under no set of circumstances or under any situation would I cheat again. When I realized I was starting to have an EA I knew the damage I was inflicting on my wife and my marriage, what I was totally unprepared for was the damage I was inflicting on myself. So I'll say this, not to garner sympathy because cheaters earn their pain, but as a word of warning you asked for. The prices I paid were huge, the toll it took on me enormous. If you cheat, and you are truly remorseful you have to face and deal with the fact that you have betrayed everyone - not just your spouse - yourself to. Betrayed spouses often say they feel like they have been living with a stranger after dday. Well, the same was true for me. Imagine being a stranger to yourself. Looking yourself in the mirror and not knowing who this person looking back at you is or understanding them. Then you have the weight of knowing your spouse is completely crushed and that's your fault, everything you've worked for is in jeopardy because of decisions you made. On top of that you're probably going through withdrawal for your AP to at the same time. It's just a complete emotional train wreck and there is no one to blame but yourself and no one to tell you it's going to be ok - no one consoles a cheater - when it blows up you have to stand there all by yourself and take your medicine. Again - before anyone flames me I don't say any of that to garner sympathy - cheaters earn their pain. I'm simply giving the OP the words of warning to other potential cheaters that he asked for. 

I would give anything to undo what I did. I'm very fortunate that my wife and I managed to pull some good out of something so bad, but I will wear my scarlet "A" forever and I hate that.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Just one teeney, tiny favor I'd ask of you if you are thinking of having an affair: PLEASE don't. Don't look for love outside of your marriage. Don't have a revenge affair if your spouse has cheated on you. Don't think love will be better elsewhere before you get your own house in order. Don't forget about your children, your career, your family. Don't let a friendship become an affair. Don't tell a prospective suitor about problems in your marriage. Just don't.
> 
> Thanks,
> a betrayed spouse


Whats love got to do with it? PLEASE don't. Don't look for sex outside the marriage. Don't have revenge sex cuz your wayward had sex with AP. Don't think sex can be better elsewere before you communicate with your spouse in what your needs and wants are, don't be ashamed or embarrassed, but tell you spouse how you want it. Don't forget about the children and the emotional pain of your deciet and betrayal. Don't pay the currentcy for a friendship by having sex. Don't tell your prospective suitor how bad your spouse is in bed....tell your spouse in a constructive way and work together...the sex will be so much more rewarding coming from the person you love/d rather then some strange. Just don't do it.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Waking up to life said:


> I would surmise that the majority of people who fall into affairs didn't actually "think" about it or plan on it. As cliche as it sounds, the "I never meant for this to happen" comment is probably true in most cases. Not an excuse, but true nonetheless. Therefore, perhaps this thread should be directed as a warning to any person who is feeling neglected or resentful that their needs aren't being met, as it seems this is often the precursor to people finding themselves having an affair from what I read here.





thatbpguy said:


> Hmmmm...... When someone engages in activities like fb messaging with people of the other gender, flirting at work, texts/emails.... they fully understand where it may lead. Then they plan to meet- be it innocent or not, they fully understand again where it may lead. Then they make a _decision_ to betray their spouse. To me, that's as good as "thinking about it". A betrayal is a process. It starts long before the first emailing or text with the person they betray with. It starts in their mind. They are open and susceptible to betrayal long before it starts to happen. In my mind, that's good enough as "thinking about it". People who betray their spouses are pretty much quitters on their spouse and frankly I have no respect for them as people.


For my experience you are both right. I didn't sit down and decide to have an affair. When my AP sent me a friend request I didn't say "man I'm going to cheat on my wife with her!!" It's a series of steps. It's one conversation that you don't really want to tell your wife about so you don't, then another, then yet another -eventually you look back and you're so far out on the plank that there is no going back so you just do a cannonball into the deep end and decide to be all in.

I do have to take exception to this part though, "A betrayal is a process. It starts long before the first emailing or text with the person they betray with. It starts in their mind. They are open and susceptible to betrayal long before it starts to happen. In my mind, that's good enough as "thinking about it". People who betray their spouses are pretty much quitters on their spouse..." I never even once though of cheating on my wife before my EA - I never even thought of cheating on my wife as my EA was in it's infancy - the thought never once crossed my mind. I wasn't open to cheating and I wasn't looking for it. I found myself in an environment where I had very poor boundaries for a variety of reasons and made some very bad decisions - or more accurately failed to make some good ones. I can assure everyone that I am not a quitter - especially on my marriage. Anyone who reconciles - cheater or betrayed spouse is not a quitter on their marriage.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

sandc said:


> I have never had an affair nor has my spouse ever had an affair. But I know many here have. I would like for those of you who have been WS's (wayward spouses) to respond in this thread. I would like to see you give any words of wisdom, warning, reassurance, or even just relate your story here concerning what the outcome was of your affair. Is your life better or worse? Are you happy with the choices you made? What would you do over if you had a chance?
> 
> I would love to be able to link back to this thread and let those who are contemplating an affair read about what it is they are about to purchase.


Here is one from an OW's perspective. This is from the MB board. I found it quite eye opening.



NewCreation2011 said:


> My perspective is from that of the OW who became the new wife. I hope this helps someone.
> 
> You will get to be responsible for destroying the life of another woman. You will get to be responsible for destroying the lives of all children involved. No, children are not resilient. They are sponges and take in everything around them whether they are capable of processing it or not. And when they are not able to process their world being shattered and all the conflicting messages about right and wrong, you will get to deal with all their issues and mistakes and anger as they grow up. You will have to know all the while that whatever is happening is a direct result of your selfishness. If the child fails at school, can’t control their anger, becomes promiscuous, falls into addictions, can’t maintain good relationships of their own you get to know in the back of your mind and deep in your soul that you are responsible for what molded that child. Whether you admit it or not, you WILL know. You will not be able to fix this; it will not work out, smooth over, or ever be okay. Even if you look like the Cleavers on the surface it is under there bubbling and will come out. Don’t think you are special and you will escape this result.
> 
> ...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Also, do not treat your husband or your wife like s**t, if you do not want them to seek comfort outside the marriage.

This is not to excuse affairs, but it takes two to tango. Don't demand loyalty from your spouse! Give it to them first, then they can return it to you.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> I would surmise that the majority of people who fall into affairs didn't actually "think" about it or plan on it. As cliche as it sounds, the "I never meant for this to happen" comment is probably true in most cases.


Then these are people who generally lack much insight into themselves.

If I join a gang, you better believe I'm thinking about the possibility of eventually having to kill someone. If I try heroine, you'd better believe that I'm considering my chances of becoming an addict. If I dance a little to close to that one hottie from the office at the company party you'd better believe I'm considering that it could spell the end of my relationship.

There are no accidents here. Fine, if you WANT to have an affair, then be a dirtbag. But to "accidentally" screw someone? There HAS to be some sort of intellectual deficiency going on there. Which is why I don't by any of it.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Hmmmm...... When someone engages in activities like fb messaging with people of the other gender, flirting at work, texts/emails.... they fully understand where it may lead. Then they plan to meet- be it innocent or not, they fully understand again where it may lead. Then they make a _decision_ to betray their spouse. To me, that's as good as "thinking about it". A betrayal is a process. It starts long before the first emailing or text with the person they betray with. It starts in their mind. They are open and susceptible to betrayal long before it starts to happen. In my mind, that's good enough as "thinking about it". *People who betray their spouses are pretty much quitters on their spouse and frankly I have no respect for them as people*.


I'm with you. When your WW never wants to talk about it and everything is rug swept resentment sets in.. then the wedge is driven... then they seek attention elsewhere when things could have been worked out up front. 

Many WW don't want to put in the effort to try to 'fix' anything. To them it's easier to just start over with the new thing because the fire is hot... eventually it cools.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

No there are no accidents but neither does that mean that the first time a person meets their AP to be that they instantly think "I'm going to have an affair with you." Every decision is made deliberately - no doubt - but a relationship can start without the knowledge or intent of where it ends. I think of it kind of like the difference between murder 1 and murder 2 - the victim is just as dead either way.


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## baddecisions (Nov 30, 2012)

Having an affair was literally the worst decision that ive ever made in my life. I was unhappy in my marriage and stupidly thought i could fulfill those missing needs with another man. Seriously, it was so dumb and selfish there are no words to describe my guilt. There is literally nothing good that can come out of an affair. The amount of pain that you cause with your lies and deceit are unimaginable. The short moments of pleasure and happiness end in a lifetime of guilt and misery from your actions. My advice....DONT DO IT


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Labcoat said:


> Then these are people who generally lack much insight into themselves.
> 
> If I join a gang, you better believe I'm thinking about the possibility of eventually having to kill someone. If I try heroine, you'd better believe that I'm considering my chances of becoming an addict. If I dance a little to close to that one hottie from the office at the company party you'd better believe I'm considering that it could spell the end of my relationship.
> 
> There are no accidents here. Fine, if you WANT to have an affair, then be a dirtbag. But to "accidentally" screw someone? There HAS to be some sort of intellectual deficiency going on there. Which is why I don't by any of it.


If only life were that simple. It's not intellectual deficiency, it's often emotional deficiency.

Sometimes good people do bad things. And sometimes it is not something they planned to do. Sometimes it is, but often, not.

A problem can arise when a good person makes one bad decision. This can turn into a series of worsening bad decisions until, one morning they awake in the bed of a lover and think: "Oh, no! I have become the kind of person I hate! I have betrayed the love of my life!"


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Hmmmm...... When someone engages in activities like fb messaging with people of the other gender, flirting at work, texts/emails.... they fully understand where it may lead. Then they plan to meet- be it innocent or not, they fully understand again where it may lead. Then they make a _decision_ to betray their spouse. To me, that's as good as "thinking about it". A betrayal is a process. It starts long before the first emailing or text with the person they betray with. It starts in their mind. They are open and susceptible to betrayal long before it starts to happen. In my mind, that's good enough as "thinking about it". People who betray their spouses are pretty much quitters on their spouse and frankly I have no respect for them as people.


So...what you are saying is you know nothing about it.

And frankly, that whole adage "You are responsible for 50% of the marriage problems, but the cheater is 100% responsible for the cheating" well, I have some problems with that

That is like saying "I only sawed through HALF of the plank my spouse was standing on. So I'm not responsible." BS!

So...I guess if the women are so incredibly disolute as to NOT wear chador and the men aren't warding off every woman with Devil Horns, screaming "UNCLEAN!" than they are JUST ASKING FOR IT.

How dare they think they can converse with HALF THE POPULATION.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Also, do not treat your husband or your wife like s**t, if you do not want them to seek comfort outside the marriage.
> 
> This is not to excuse affairs, but it takes two to tango. Don't demand loyalty from your spouse! Give it to them first, then they can return it to you.


So frigging this!


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Labcoat said:


> Then these are people who generally lack much insight into themselves.
> 
> If I join a gang, you better believe I'm thinking about the possibility of eventually having to kill someone. If I try heroine, you'd better believe that I'm considering my chances of becoming an addict. If I dance a little to close to that one hottie from the office at the company party you'd better believe I'm considering that it could spell the end of my relationship.
> 
> There are no accidents here. Fine, if you WANT to have an affair, then be a dirtbag. But to "accidentally" screw someone? There HAS to be some sort of intellectual deficiency going on there. Which is why I don't by any of it.


So...that you using that sense of introspection to analyze what you are doing wrong in your relationship so your wife IS dancing close to that hot guy?

Perhaps you are introspective. Empathic...not so much.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

JCD said:


> So...what you are saying is you know nothing about it.
> 
> And frankly, that whole adage "You are responsible for 50% of the marriage problems, but the cheater is 100% responsible for the cheating" well, I have some problems with that
> 
> ...


I don't think I fully understand your response. But let me respond anyway...



JCD said:


> So...what you are saying is you know nothing about it.


If you saying I have never betrayed my spouse- you are correct. I never have. As to being betrayed. I have. Three times by my first wife and possibly once by my current wife. I was deeply in love with my first wife. So to that extent, I know a thing or two about it.



JCD said:


> And frankly, that whole adage "You are responsible for 50% of the marriage problems, but the cheater is 100% responsible for the cheating" well, I have some problems with that
> 
> That is like saying "I only sawed through HALF of the plank my spouse was standing on. So I'm not responsible." BS!


I will disagree. I mean, there are some way out extreme examples one can give (like an abandoned spouse of many years that starts to date...) but to betray a spouse and then try and say it partially their fault is the epitome of cowardice. If I ever wanted to betray my wife I'd leave her first. But to betray and then hide it, cover it up... and the whole process that takes place leading up to the betrayal simply isn't the beytrayed's fault. No, the fault lies 100% with the betrayer. They have no respect for their marriage, spouse, or family. As such, they are not deserving of my respect- no matter how much they try and justify the pain they cause intentionally to so many people.



JCD said:


> So...I guess if the women are so incredibly disolute as to NOT wear chador and the men aren't warding off every woman with Devil Horns, screaming "UNCLEAN!" than they are JUST ASKING FOR IT.
> 
> How dare they think they can converse with HALF THE POPULATION.


This not only makes no sense what so ever, but isn't remotely reflective of my post. Sorry, can't help you here.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Okay, as a WAYWARD spouse, let me share some insights.

I tried to get my wife engaged with me. No. I set up trips to reconnect. No. I suggested counseling for our constant and recurring problems. No.

I tried to call her to just have fun conversations not chore and household related "What do you want?" with a suspicious tone.

At the same time, I'm away from the house for days at a time, working and isolated from friends and family.

So, out of desperation for SOME friendship, I do some online gaming...and that lead to (pick one) a really close friend or an EA.

Did I CHOOSE to have an EA? No. I was a lone voice crying out for...fvcking SOMEBODY. I certainly was getting almost nothing at home.

We were on opposite ends of the cycle. When my wife was pissy, I'd be trying to connect. When she was ready, I'd be ready to quit.

So...nope, the BS had NOTHING to do with ANYTHING that made a WS inclined to someone else's attentions. (sarcasm)

Having been that staggeringly lonely, sorry, don't buy it.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

JCD said:


> Okay, as a WAYWARD spouse, let me share some insights.
> 
> I tried to get my wife engaged with me. No. I set up trips to reconnect. No. I suggested counseling for our constant and recurring problems. No.
> 
> ...


I feel so sorry for your spouse.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> I feel so sorry for your spouse.


You know...I was just thinking the same thing about your ex.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

JCD said:


> Okay, as a WAYWARD spouse, let me share some insights.
> 
> I tried to get my wife engaged with me. No. I set up trips to reconnect. No. I suggested counseling for our constant and recurring problems. No.
> 
> ...


I don't mean any offense by saying this and I hope I'm not somehow misunderstanding what you posted.

But, the above quote is just pathetic and sad. 

Your making another person responsible for the choices you made? Worse, it's the very person that you betrayed. Do you sleep easier believing your victim was responsible for your choices ? 

Man up. Your human, ok? You made a horrible mistake. You alone made that choice, no one did it for you. People make mistakes. I've made tons of them. The least you can do is own your own.

Jmho.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You know, if someone keeps pushing someone away, hard, and eventually, they turn round and says: "Gee! Where are they?" you really do have to wonder what they were thinking all the time they were pushing them away, right?


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Dumb question here, why be married to someone who pushes you away? Why not just divorce? Why cheat? Is it money, kids, what?

It's not a sarcastic question, I've never been in that position and truly don't know.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> You know, if someone keeps pushing someone away, hard, and eventually, they turn round and says: "Gee! Where are they?" you really do have to wonder what they were thinking all the time they were pushing them away, right?


I agree. Affairs are terrible, and people should just own their unhappiness with their spouse & if it's really that bad should just leave. Yet, when the other person has stopped working on the marriage & neglects their spouse, they should expect consequences, instead of kicking back, taking advantage of the other person & talking about the "sanctity of marriage." I guess the sanctity of marriage is only relevant when talking of faithfulness but not meeting the needs & requests of your partner. I'm sorry, but I do believe it usually takes 2 to tango.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> You know, if someone keeps pushing someone away, hard, and eventually, they turn round and says: "Gee! Where are they?" you really do have to wonder what they were thinking all the time they were pushing them away, right?


This was almost me! I was pushing my husband away. I couldn't deal with his diagnoses. First it was depression, then it turned to bipolar, and then added in anxiety, agoraphobia, ADD... I sucked as a wife during this time. I had not one, but two EAs. Both were with men I met online, in a game. Both, I knew there was no way we would ever meat in real life. The first time, he caught it and begged (yes, like other WS, I found it pathetic), but I promised to stop. The second one... it WAS a surprise. The guy was supposedly a friend of my husband's. He knew all of the problems my husband had concerning his psych problems. It started with me getting advice from this man... and it changed, very subtly. I had no intention of getting involved with this man, but it did happen over time. 

During that time, I pushed my husband away... like, to the point that he didn't think I would even care who he was talking to, nor what they were talking about. My EA ended, fog lifted.... and I realized what I had done. He had started an EA of his own... it was the beginning stages, but still... 

If I could go back, I wouldn't have done any of it. I would have done a LOT of things differently, especially how much I hurt him. It isn't worth it. Not even a little bit. If you love your spouse, you work on the bad things to try to fix them. You don't turn to others for validation/ego stroking.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

sandc said:


> Dumb question here, why be married to someone who pushes you away? Why not just divorce? Why cheat? Is it money, kids, what?
> 
> It's not a sarcastic question, I've never been in that position and truly don't know.


I'll be honest... I don't know. I don't know why he stayed. I don't know why he didn't kick my ass to the curb. The only thing I can think of is that he took his vows seriously..."for better or worse"... even when I overlooked the "in sickness and health". He has told me over and over that he stayed with me, even then, because he loves me. Just that simple. Other than that... I couldn't even hazard a guess.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sandc said:


> Dumb question here, why be married to someone who pushes you away? Why not just divorce? Why cheat? Is it money, kids, what?
> 
> It's not a sarcastic question, I've never been in that position and truly don't know.


You just reach out to talk with someone. Someone who might be able to help you understand the pain the love of your life is putting you in. Maybe that other person has an agenda? Maybe they want to steal you away from your spouse? Or maybe they just want to help take away your pain?

And so it becomes an EA. Perhaps even a PA. True, you shouldn't have done it. But...


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> You know, if someone keeps pushing someone away, hard, and eventually, they turn round and says: "Gee! Where are they?" you really do have to wonder what they were thinking all the time they were pushing them away, right?


Sad to say, but I was guilty of this with my 2nd betrayal. Not something I'm proud of, but I am proud of my efforts to correct my flaws to limit the possibility of this happening again.

It was always so easy to say that she betrayed me (and correctly so), but deny the fact that I betrayed her as well. My betrayal was not following "to have and to hold". I was very neglectful, and I fully admit it. It only took me nearly a decade to admit it to myself, but I finally do.

We all play a part in this world of infidelity, otherwise it probably wouldn't happen. But sometimes our pride gets in the way of allowing us to admit it. Okay, her betrayal killed me, much more so than the first one. It was a sledgehammer to my heart and completely emasculating. Hurt to the core.

But (now that I've had plenty of time to think about this) which is worse?

Your heart being ripped out all at once and thrown into a woodchipper (her betrayal)?

Or me killing her softly and slowly by means of death by a thousand cuts?

I am not at all condoning adultery. Just saying we betrayed seriously do play a part in all this insanity. But that's no excuse, as there is NO excuse for adultery. Reasons? Yes. Excuses? NO!


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

JCD said:


> So...I guess if the women are so incredibly disolute as to NOT wear chador and the men aren't warding off every woman with Devil Horns, screaming "UNCLEAN!" than they are JUST ASKING FOR IT.
> 
> How dare they think they can converse with HALF THE POPULATION.


I'm sorry to be so blunt, but this is ludicrous.

One doesn't have to wear a chador, fend off every woman with devil horns, or refuse to speak to anyone of the opposite gender in order to be faithful. 

Being faithful has to do with not breaking the promises made to the spouse. 

Having opposite sex friends means having the integrity to maintain your boundaries. That lack of integrity is entirely the cheater's fault.

Yes, both partners contribute to marriage problems, but cheating is the sole fault of the cheater because there are dozens of ways to handle the marriage problems that do NOT involve cheating.

Also, If you were unhappy in your marriage, you could have had the guts to say, "hey wife, our marriage is not working; either we need to fix it or we need to divorce." Instead, you cheated. Ok, mistake; own it, move on, don't try to blame the person you hurt.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

If you are so unhappy in your marriage, just get the phuck out of it before you cheat. If marriage vows don't mean anything to you, why go through all the gimmicks of getting married and pretend that you take commitments seriously? We all can phuck like animals even without the wedding rings. Why make another person go through the pain similar to the love of a dear one?

And I don't take any blame for my STBXW's cheating. Since we have been together, we took all decisions jointly. I am responsible for 50% of good and bad and she is for the other 50%. But we NEVER took the decision to cheat jointly. That decision was her OWN. I am sorry if you are not capable to understand this.

Again, cheating is COMPLETELY on the WS. Don't blame a BS. We have already gone through enough. Have a modicum of decency.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> I'll be honest... I don't know. I don't know why he stayed. I don't know why he didn't kick my ass to the curb. The only thing I can think of is that he took his vows seriously..."for better or worse"... even when I overlooked the "in sickness and health". He has told me over and over that he stayed with me, even then, because he loves me. Just that simple. Other than that... I couldn't even hazard a guess.


My wife had her affair. I had an EA that was a gnat's hair from going PA.

Why? Because although I forgave my wife, I felt broken by what had happened. I really could not get my head around the idea she had cheated on me. Why had she cheated? What had I done wrong? Was he better than me? A better lover than me? I needed someone I could talk to, someone who hadn't cheated on me? Maybe that was it.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Hmmmm...... When someone engages in activities like fb messaging with people of the other gender, flirting at work, texts/emails.... they fully understand where it may lead. Then they plan to meet- be it innocent or not, they fully understand again where it may lead.


Exactly :iagree: Why even entertain the idea of meeting an ex lover that is in town or even meet an OSF for lunch several times a week, face book etc etc time wasted and attention moved from the spouse.


I will quote a member



> Originally Posted by F-102
> It may have gone something like this:
> 
> They first start catching up, and it's all "How you been doing? What have you been up to?"
> ...


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

life101 said:


> Again, cheating is COMPLETELY on the WS. Don't blame a BS. We have already gone through enough. Have a modicum of decency.


The WS has no possible reason to justify cheating. It is an intrinsic evil, and it is wrong no matter the reason.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> My wife had her affair. I had an EA that was a gnat's hair from going PA.
> 
> Why? Because *although I forgave my wife*, I felt broken by what had happened. I really could not get my head around the idea she had cheated on me. Why had she cheated? What had I done wrong? Was he better than me? A better lover than me? I needed someone I could talk to, someone who hadn't cheated on me? Maybe that was it.


You didn't. Sorry for being too blunt.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

sandc said:


> Dumb question here, why be married to someone who pushes you away? Why not just divorce? Why cheat? Is it money, kids, what?
> 
> It's not a sarcastic question, I've never been in that position and truly don't know.


Let's see.

Kids.

Not trying to subject them to arguments EVERY FRIGGING YEAR about where they are going to be doing their vacatons.

Not having the constant fighting divorce brings.

The Finanacial devestation

Having this incredibly idiotic blazing belief in 'MATRIMONY' as some pious unchangable good and Divorce as an irredeemable evil (having been the child of divorce, it is a huge evil...but knowing what I know now, not the worst evil)

Guilt trips

Step parents pouring poison in the ears of the children

The absolute alienation of your kids from you life (Welcome to the reality of men in divorce. In our case, I had to force my way back to my father)

Shame

Hatred of Failure.

Work seperation equating to a virtual divorce already, with only uncomfortable weekends to deal with.

Low self esteem prompting one to believe that a club footed ugly chick was the best I could hope for in my next relationship (Happend to a neighbor of mine. Alcoholic wife who denied him sex was divorced...and he got that as a replacement. So I am  about the whole 'life will be butterflies and unicorns after the divorce' credo at TAM. There aren't enough supermodels out there to fulfill the promises made by TAM members...)

**

For the slow of reading, I did NOT go out to all and sundry females on the internet ringing a dinner bell and screaming 'COME AND GET IT!'

I wanted SOMEONE to talk to. I talked to MANY people. And got closer to on in particular. I never hid it (we were fellow hobbists). Someone was willing to spend time with me. I was not screwing her. So I was doing no harm and filling a need my wife...wouldn't.

At a certain point, yes, I KNEW I was making the poor choice of spending time with a strange woman I'd never met over a familiar woman who was busy either barking orders or pushing me away.

That was a love language and communication disconnect. And I DID make those choices.

But as a husband, I don't take my wife to a singles bar and tell her "I'll be right back after the movie" and get to act surprised when she isn't there when I come back.

It amazes me on TAM that an abusive alcoholic prick can drink for years, ignore and berate his wife, and yet, when she finally cracks and has an affair, DOZENS of posters will BERATE her for her action...and not that of the man WIELDING THE KNIFE IN AN ALCOHOLIC STUPOR.

Nope. Being Betrayed means never having to say you are sorry. It confers this blanket amnesty and sainthood all at once.

baddecisions thread should be mandatory cautionary reading for every pompous BS poster out there...but they have seemed to learn nothing either.

So much for that vaunted 'introspection'


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

If WS put in the efforts that went into an affair, many marriages could and would have been saved. People respond to different languages and incentives. Again, just because WS is not getting something from a marriage, it doesn't automatically give the license to cheat. Please show me where it is written on the marriage contract.

And on the topic of getting another beautiful partner after divorce. Beauty lies inside. My STBXW was a virgin when I met her, she seemed beautiful, pure and sublime. Many desired her, and I felt like I won her. It was all a show. I was nothing but a provider. Outside beauty doesn't always translate to inner beauty and I had to learn it the hard way.

In the end, it all comes down to our own values and self-worth. Do I have strong values that I can take my commitments seriously and never doubt my love and responsibilites? Do I see myself as a strong person who can go through the struggles of life without hurting the near and dear ones?

Most BSs can. Most WSs cannot.

Period.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Hmmmm...... When someone engages in activities like fb messaging with people of the other gender, flirting at work, texts/emails.... they fully understand where it may lead. Then they plan to meet- be it innocent or not, they fully understand again where it may lead. Then they make a _decision_ to betray their spouse. To me, that's as good as "thinking about it". A betrayal is a process. It starts long before the first emailing or text with the person they betray with. It starts in their mind. They are open and susceptible to betrayal long before it starts to happen. In my mind, that's good enough as "thinking about it". People who betray their spouses are pretty much quitters on their spouse and frankly I have no respect for them as people.


My WW engaged in FB chats with OM and flirted to experience the thrill/high of pushing boundaries to see how far she could take it and still call it off. She likened it to holding your hand over a candle flame. How long and how close could you hold it and not get burned?

The problem with this game is eventually you will get burned. It is a stupid game to play, and completely disrespects the betrayed spouse and the marriage.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

I didnt imply you were somehow 'evil' or something JCD. I dont think that at all. What you did is done, you found a reason and obviously you feel justified. Stop needing to blame other people or circumstances. Just own it. Blaming someone for your choices is cowardly.

The truth is I cheated on quite a few girlfriends, some very serious and many were in love with me. I bet it to torn their heart out, actually I know for a fact I've left some serious scars on some women out there. I always had what i thought was a good reason I did it, lonely, arguing, bored, not 'meant to be', whatever.. but you want to get down to it? I did it because at that moment I wanted to, and I could. And That's exactly why you did it. 

Own your $hit man! Believe it or not, it's for your own good.

And stop yelling. I don't mean any offense to you, we are talking.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> The WS has no possible reason to justify cheating. It is an intrinsic evil, and it is wrong no matter the reason.


'Justify' no. If you want to analyze HOW you got to where you got in a marriage, you could 

a) determine the actions of BOTH parties which lead to the debacle

or b) decide 'they's just EEEEEEVIIILLLLLL' which neatly voids any responsibility on the BS' side...and is emotionally gratifying.

And yet...how many members just happen to run into cheating spouse after cheating spouse. 

Curious...but best not dwell on that. It must be there are LOTS ot evil people out there who have absolutely no values.

Sorry...I couldn't help notice...you got some sand in your ear...


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I didnt imply you were somehow 'evil' or something JCD. I dont think that at all. What you did is done, you found a reason and obviously you feel justified. Stop needing to blame other people or circumstances. Just own it. Blaming someone for your choices is cowardly.
> 
> The truth is I cheated on quite a few girlfriends, some very serious and many were in love with me. I bet it to torn their heart out, actually I know for a fact I've left some serious scars on some women out there. I always had what i thought was a good reason I did it, lonely, arguing, bored, not 'meant to be', whatever.. but you want to get down to it? I did it because at that moment I wanted to, and I could. And That's exactly why you did it.
> 
> ...




Okay

Here:



> At a certain point, yes, I KNEW I was making the poor choice of spending time with a strange woman I'd never met over a familiar woman who was busy either barking orders or pushing me away.
> 
> That was a love language and communication disconnect. And I DID make those choices.


I believe I did just that.

However, I am willing to take on the Dogma of the Betrayed. It is comforting to decide that every single wayward is some morally bankrupt human being who would run over an orphan if they happened to get between them and a meaningless orgasm. Heck I was related to a woman like that, given a twenty to play video games so she could screw her paramour in peace at the tender age of 12. Thanks mom!

So...I get that side of the equation.

And I have serious validation issues with women. I am working on them. I am working on communicating effectively with my wife.

But...not to put too fine a point on it, but my wife sucked as a spouse and not in the good way. She is also getting better.

So yes, it seems like one more added indignity piled on the poor betrayed like mental movies, but some times, it's true that actions by the betrayed made it easy for the Wayward to disconnect. Denying this truth just sets you up for more problems and failure down the road.

Happy spouses dont' cheat unless they are sociopaths. Exactly how many of them do you think there are in the population? (According to Yahoo Answers, it's 3-5%)

But the main thrust of my argument and the thing which offends me the most is that cheaters are just bungee jumping into infidelity. From everything I've read on TAM and in another work, that isn't how it is. It wasn't how it was for me until 18 months into the relationship when I started making these *distinct* and *knowing* choices. It was a gradual slide.

Let me ask this: if your spouse was constantly a pain, and you prefer to spend time with your SAME GENDER friend...or being 'out with the guys'...or in your workshop, who does your spouse blame then? The emotional disconnect is the same...and very common.

So blame my genes, blame my psychology, blame my morals. Whatever.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

People make poor choices. Being human is about being imperfect. The beauty of the situation is that humans can also learn from those choices and make better ones. 

I don't think that all people who cheat are evil. I do think that it's a cowardly act whose origins are in weakness and problems with conflict resolution. Cheating can happen in hood marriages as well as bad ones. And, there are big differences between people who cheat once out of stupidity or temptation and those who are remorseless serial cheaters for whom it is just a default setting. 

The straw man arguments about blame don't help anyone, either, because even though the wrong vs right part is pretty clear (the one who cheated is in the wrong) the rest isn't; marriages are only as strong as the people in them and their joint commitment -- and sometimes, regardless of the strengths and flaws of the individuals, the bond of commitment isn't strong enough to overcome issues. When weakness is discovered, one must fortify. Placing blame isn't the same as diagnosing for weaknesses to fortify.

The worst thing about being betrayed, in my opinion, isn't the actual cheating, but the lies and cover-ups and manipulation that accompany it. The breach of trust can be traumatizing. It is not worth the temporary thrill that cheating provides. And, while hiding the truth seems like it will spare the betrayed spouse pain, I think it just worsens it...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

life101 said:


> In the end, it all comes down to our own values and self-worth. Do I have strong values that I can take my commitments seriously and never doubt my love and responsibilites? Do I see myself as a strong person who can go through the struggles of life without hurting the near and dear ones?
> 
> Most BSs can. Most WSs cannot.
> 
> Period.


Or perhaps most BS have not yet been in the situation wher they hit their limits.

What if you find yourself in an intolerable marriage, yet you believe divorce is wrong?

When does promising "till death do us part" and then breaking that promise become morally acceptable?

What if you try to hang onto that promise and fail?

I believe marriage is for life. I stayed for the kids after my wife's affair. The marriage was in ashes and I came close to affairs a couple of times. 

Usually I wil just say "better to divorce than to cheat" on TAM, but I have to acknowledge it is not quite that simple, because you have to decide what makes divorce acceptable. At what point you can break your word with integrity. At what point your right to a happy marriage takes precedence over your kids right not to risk being abused or molested by someone your ex brings into the home after you are gone.


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## dubbizle (Jan 15, 2012)

If you want real answers to this,why not go on a site which is pro affair,I don't think too many want to come on here and get slammed.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

JCD said:


> Let me ask this: if your spouse was constantly a pain, and you prefer to spend time with your SAME GENDER friend...or being 'out with the guys'...or in your workshop, who does your spouse blame then? The emotional disconnect is the same...and very common


Depends... do you "fall in love with" your same gender friends, or no? Yes, you CAN have an EA with same gender friends. I agree that the emotional disconnect is there, regardless. But no matter how much one tries to justify his or her actions, I do not see cheating as good "because we weren't emotionally connected." Been there, done that. And it was the stupidest thing I ever did. rather than really working on it with my husband, I turned to someone else. Emotional disconnection is wrong. Cheating is just as wrong. All cheating does is lower your own integrity.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Depends... do you "fall in love with" your same gender friends, or no? Yes, you CAN have an EA with same gender friends. I agree that the emotional disconnect is there, regardless. But no matter how much one tries to justify his or her actions, I do not see cheating as good "because we weren't emotionally connected." Been there, done that. And it was the stupidest thing I ever did. rather than really working on it with my husband, I turned to someone else. Emotional disconnection is wrong. Cheating is just as wrong. All cheating does is lower your own integrity.


So...if my H is emotionally neglectful, distant, blaming, and flat out difficult to be around, and I start spending a lot of time with my female close friends because they at least are nice to me and make me feel valued as a person, I'm cheating on my H just the same as if I did this with a male "friend"? 

I guess this means it's wrong to seek any kind of emotional support from anyone besides your spouse, even when they clearly cannot or will not give it. So I'm getting from this thread that the emotionally neglected/abused spouse is pretty much SOL and needs to either learn to suck it up and allow the abuser/neglecter to remain without fault in this issue, or they can "do the right thing and divorce" but then get labeled as a Walkaway Wife and the left-behind husband becomes the poor victim.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

dubbizle said:


> If you want real answers to this,why not go on a site which is pro affair,I don't think too many want to come on here and get slammed.


If you think this post is pro affair, you seriously need to reread everything

I actually agree with Moxy. This isn't about 'blame'. It's about 'owning up' to what you did.

For example, if I was a hideous spouse to my wife (and some people might say that I am) and she retreated into gardening and book clubs and tea circles to the point that I was no longer a part of her life, the facts of what I did to her to encourage those actions fall squarely on me.

Yes, she should try to work things out. I should try to work things out. Unfortunately, they don't make you take marriage classes before the license is given. Sometimes people don't out of pride, ignorance or whatever. On both sides.

But in the case cited above, I do not have that comforting duvet of having her cheat...and yet her emotional disconnect is just as real. But my actions of being an a-hole are the same whether she has an integrity lapse or not. In one, I get to be the victim. This is simplistic but I'm just trying to illustrate a point.

Some people ARE sociopaths. Some people DO have very poor boundaries. And some spouses also do things which exacerbate these preexisting conditions...or CREATE (in a few instances) these failures.

But yes, it is a choice for the cheater. It doesn't have to be an EASY choice...


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Depends... do you "fall in love with" your same gender friends, or no? Yes, you CAN have an EA with same gender friends. I agree that the emotional disconnect is there, regardless. But no matter how much one tries to justify his or her actions, I do not see cheating as good "because we weren't emotionally connected." Been there, done that. And it was the stupidest thing I ever did. rather than really working on it with my husband, I turned to someone else. Emotional disconnection is wrong. Cheating is just as wrong. All cheating does is lower your own integrity.


I agree with this statement. It is not about dismissing the damage and hurt caused by the wayward..

After the crisis, my wife and I started to have a series of painful and enlightening conversations. Instead of attacks and worries about blame, we thrashed things out...and have so far come out stronger.

It was a difficult road however.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Or perhaps not BS have not yet been in the situation wher they hit their limits.
> 
> *What if you find yourself in an intolerable marriage, yet you believe divorce is wrong?*
> 
> ...


Every situation is different. I can vouch that as soon as my STBXW started her affair, she made our marriage a living hell. I didn't realize the reason, didn't have the help of TAM then. I stayed there, tried to work things out, tried to counter hostility with love. Only if I had some help from the other side...

Temptations will always be there. Compulsions will always be there. Responsibilities will always be there. *We rationalize our choices after we make them.* To qoute Shaggy, decent human beings don't cheat not because they have many responsibilities or zero outside option, but becuase it is the RIGHT thing to do. Being married for children's sake, or financial reasons and cheating at the same time are just excuses for having the cake and eating it too IMHO. May be that's too naive a view, but I don't see how it is possible to hurt someone you promised to love and that not being considered the WRONG thing to do.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

As a BS, I can offer my personal perspective. Make no mistake, I hate what my STBXW did (EA/PA kept secret via lying and trickle truthing). I actually hated her for a while. But her cheating (and this is not meant to be an excuse or a generalization) was really a series of small decisions - BAD decisions which added up to a major off-course adventure in Infidelity land. But I truly believe that each small decision was made with the idea that my wife would get her selfish reward/thrill for the day, but would stop it before it went further. So it was a series of small steps, small rewards - basically a Pavlovian system which led to her eventual PA. At any time, the cycle could have been broken by my wife or the POSOM - but neither had the necessary character. The cycle could have been broken by ME, but I had no idea it was going on because of my clueless believe in our marriage and trust in my wife.

In short, she didn't start on Day One thinking "I'm gonna have an affair and Fck this guy". She started with "he's handsome and nice, and I feel neglected by my husband - let me just text the OM "hi" and see if he responds". After that first "reward", it was a simple matter of rationalization (ie. the "fog") which led my STBXW to end up in the sack with the OM after 1 year of an EA. And the secrecy only added to the value of the "rewards". 

Anyway, my point is that many WS do not plan to have an affair on Day One. It's like a boat steering just a small fraction of a degree off course. Each mile only results in a little bit of a deviation. But at the end of the day, they are way off course. It's like that with many affairs. The WS lacks the character or the maturity to step back every now and then and look at where they are. They rationalize making tiny little deviations (thinking - "this tiny indiscretion won't hurt anybody") from their marriage and they keep doing this until they shipwreck.

And Waking up to life - there are many areas of emotional support for a WS. They are not SOL. If not friends/family, then IC or even forums like this.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I have not had an affair and my husband has not ever had an affair. But I wanted to share a post from a woman on another marriage board. She cheated. She wrote this very poignant post and it stuck with me. I think it answers the question in the original post...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_From FindingFreedom ( a person who posts on MB) * Things I didn't think when I had an affair*

1. The sound of my husband wailing, curled up in the fetal position when I told him I had sex with another man. 

2. What it would sound like to hear my husband say, "I should have never married you". 

3. The sadness on my husband's face and in his eyes. How much he has aged in 6 weeks. 

4. The grief on my kids' faces when we told them what their mother did. 

5. The eerie silence and lonliness in a house full of people. Sometimes no one knows what to say or do. We used to laugh.

6. What it feels like to be nothing more than a free prostitute, when I used to be pure and honorable and respectable. 

7. That 6 weeks after d-day, I'd still be getting sick every morning from stress. 

8. That no matter how good our marriage will someday be, I will always be an adulteress. 

9. That a grown woman acted like a selfish toddler. 

10. The dead, empty, hollow feeling in my soul for having done something so wicked.
_
_________________________


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

life101 said:


> Every situation is different. I can vouch that as soon as my STBXW started her affair, she made our marriage a living hell. I didn't realize the reason, didn't have the help of TAM then. I stayed there, tried to work things out, tried to counter hostility with love. Only if I had some help from the other side...



Same here. Maybe not a living hell - but something was hostile and different. No more warmth. No more random hugs or kisses. Everything became forced and artificial and tense. I can remember getting into my car at 3:00 am and just going for a drive to try to figure out what the hell was going on. I suspected, but my wife kept denying and then I denied that she would cheat so just thought she was unhappy and in MLC.

Then, after I discovered the EA (which had actually already morphed into a PA and had ended), my wife and I tried to reconcile - but it never felt the same between us. The magic was broken. Plus, my wife lied about the PA until AFTER we had separated.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Oh yes. Luckily, I don't feel as guilty as that woman Coffee Amore quoted because I didn't go nearly that far. (And I'm an amoral ass)

But to latch onto what Cedarman and Life101 stated, at a certain point, my wife came to try to put things back together when things had gone far afield.. Small things. Not actual CONVERSATION but invites to see movies together.

And I'll own up to it. I rejected her My thoughts were "NOW?!? NOW you want to start to work on things when you're basically out of my life?"

I was full of resentment. And let me be perfectly clear: I added just as much stress and drama as she did.

I think it very true that it's a bunch of small decisions but frankly, it isn't even SEEN as 'cake eating' at least on my end. "Oh...SHE wants to chat with me." So we chat. Since I was on the road, my wife couldn't fill in that time. She wasn't as available (Note..THESE days, we MAKE ourselves available to one another. If we can be online to chat, we are)

The feeling good wasn't something sought..it was a simple byproduct of the interaction...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

life101 said:


> Every situation is different. I can vouch that as soon as my STBXW started her affair, she made our marriage a living hell. I didn't realize the reason, didn't have the help of TAM then. I stayed there, tried to work things out, tried to counter hostility with love. Only if I had some help from the other side...
> 
> Temptations will always be there. Compulsions will always be there. Responsibilities will always be there. *We rationalize our choices after we make them.* To qoute Shaggy, decent human beings don't cheat not because they have many responsibilities or zero outside option, but becuase it is the RIGHT thing to do. Being married for children's sake, or financial reasons and cheating at the same time are just excuses for having the cake and eating it too IMHO. May be that's too naive a view, but I don't see how it is possible to hurt someone you promised to love and that not being considered the WRONG thing to do.


If I catch my wife in bed with another man I am entitled to divorce her? Right?

What if she is in bed with him but dressed?

What if she is in the bedroom kissing?

In the kitchen, kissing?

Spending too much time with him?

Spending too much time on her career instead of me?

Only giving me 14 hours a week of quality one-on-one time instead of 15 hours?

Being boring?

At what point has she crossed the line to the point where a decent person is entitled to break the promise of "till death do us part"? And how do we know we are not rationalising when we make the decision to divorce?

See, by my values cheating is wrong AND divorce is wrong. Decent people don't cheat, but neither do they break a promise of marriage till death do us part. And in a bad marriage that becomes a very difficult position to uphold.

Does a decent person discuss marriage, agree with their fiancee that it is for life, stand up in a church and make those vows, start a family, then break the vows and divorce? Isn't breaking that vow a form of cheating?

I'm really sorry....I know this is an uncomfortable topic, but lets face it, for those of us who have been cheated on, we are already in painful territory.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

I suppose that everything I have to say can be summed up in that last line of one of my posts

If a person is going to cheat on you, don't make it an EASY choice to make. Be a high value mate.

Because just as there are a lot of WS who won't own up to what they do for myriad reasons, so too do s_ome_ BS don't own up to the fact that they didn't exactly make it much of a loss.

Of course I'm not speaking about anyone DIRECTLY. This is hypothetical.

For the record, I'm not as big a believer in 'the Fog' either. Frequently yes. I had delusions of flying out and meeting my friend and...well...it got a bit sticky and hard to justify after that, but those thoughts WERE there.

But if a person checked out and shows no remorse...it might not be because they are in La La land. It might be that they've weighed the marriage and (right or wrong) found it wanting.

AND they did the wrong thing by cheating first. Stipulated


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Wazza said:


> At what point has she crossed the line to the point where a decent person is entitled to break the promise of "till death do us part"? And how do we know we are not rationalising when we make the decision to divorce?
> 
> See, by my values cheating is wrong AND divorce is wrong. Decent people don't cheat, but neither do they break a promise of marriage till death do us part. And in a bad marriage that becomes a very difficult position to uphold.
> 
> ...


The moment a WS decided to cheat, be it EA or PA or just the thought of looking for that extra outside of the marriage, the contract of marriage had already been broken. Getting officially divorced is just a formality. It is not the BS who broke the marital vows, it is the WS who did it by deciding to cheat. It is the WS who did the two wrongs: cheating and divorce. The BS is the only decent person in my book.

Again, the vows were already broken by the WS and even if the divorce didn't take place officially, the marriage was over. In case of R, a new contract is being drawn implicitly.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

life101 said:


> The moment a WS decided to cheat, be it EA or PA or just the thought of looking for that extra outside of the marriage, the contract of marriage had already been broken. Getting officially divorced is just a formality. It is not the BS who broke the marital vows, it is the WS who did it by deciding to cheat. It is the WS who did the two wrongs: cheating and divorce. The BS is the only decent person in my book.
> 
> Again, the vows were already broken by the WS and even if the divorce didn't take place officially, the marriage was over. In case of R, a new contract is being drawn implicitly.


You dodged the question, I think. 

At what point does divorce become a decent option rather than a broken vow? A decent person keeps their vows.

Not defending cheating, or being naive about the reality of divorce, just wrestling with the complexity of the problem.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Wazza said:


> You dodged the question, I think.
> 
> At what point does divorce become a decent option rather than a broken vow? A decent person keeps their vows.
> 
> Not defending cheating, just wrestling with the complexity of the problem.


When the WS is not willing to accept the responsibilites of own choice and instead shift the blame on the BS, divorce is the one and only option then. If there is remorse, not just guilt, then there is a possibility of redemption. Let's face it, we all make mistakes. Who hasn't made one? To err is human, and so is to correct our mistakes and be a better person.

I am all for R in case of an A, if there is true remorse. However, if the WS is incapable of distinguishing right from wrong, then there is no point in carrying on the facade. The vow was already broken by cheating. By divorce, the BS is just protecting oneself from furhter hurt, the vow cannot be broken again since it is just not there.

In case of a truly remorseful WS, I am all in for an honest R before ending the marriage. We all deserve second chances, some of us might even more.

I don't mind the discussion btw.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Wazza said:


> If I catch my wife in bed with another man I am entitled to divorce her? Right?
> 
> What if she is in bed with him but dressed?
> 
> ...



The real answer is that it is different for every couple.

But to your point of whether the BS is breaking marital vows by seeking divorce from the cheating spouse. The cheating spouse has already broken the vows. So there are no vows left to break. It is up to the BS whether they want to repair the broken vows.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> The real answer is that it is different for every couple.
> 
> But to your point of whether the BS is breaking marital vows by seeking divorce from the cheating spouse. The cheating spouse has already broken the vows. So there are no vows left to break. It is up to the BS whether they want to repair the broken vows.


Not every example I cited is breaking the vows. 

FWIW, my personal answer is dictated by my religious beliefs. Sexual infidelity on the part of my wife gives me the right to divorce. When it happened, I chose not to for the sake of my children.

What I don't like about my answer is my spouse can neglect me and it doesn't give me permission for divorce, so I can end up committed to an unfulfilling marriage.

Trying to make that work, trying not to divorce, I could conceive myself cheating if the wrong combination of circumstances arose. I don't see that as a justification for divorce though.

This stuff is hard.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

Waking up to life said:


> So...if my H is emotionally neglectful, distant, blaming, and flat out difficult to be around, and I start spending a lot of time with my female close friends because they at least are nice to me and make me feel valued as a person, I'm cheating on my H just the same as if I did this with a male "friend"?
> 
> I guess this means it's wrong to seek any kind of emotional support from anyone besides your spouse, even when they clearly cannot or will not give it. So I'm getting from this thread that the emotionally neglected/abused spouse is pretty much SOL and needs to either learn to suck it up and allow the abuser/neglecter to remain without fault in this issue, or they can "do the right thing and divorce" but then get labeled as a Walkaway Wife and the left-behind husband becomes the poor victim.


Better to be a divorced ex-spouse than a cheating spouse.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

So...let's figure this out.

What is are 'acceptable' grounds to break your vows of marriage?

So far, all the BS see infidelity as not 'for worse' but a deal breaker.

What allows me, with morality and decency to divorce my wife which does NOT involve infidelity.

What is sufficient abuse or neglect to 'break the vows'?


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

Abuse (mentally, physically, verbally) and cheating are justifiable dealbreakers to end a marriage the right way. Emotional neglect can be worked through and fixed if both parties want it...but if they can't agree to fix it, it is also reason to leave the marriage. 

Those are justifiable reasons for divorce. They are NOT justifiable reasons to become a cheating @ss. Divorce, then go find all the emotional and sexual fulfillment in someone else you can possibly handle.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> So...if my H is emotionally neglectful, distant, blaming, and flat out difficult to be around, and I start spending a lot of time with my female close friends because they at least are nice to me and make me feel valued as a person, I'm cheating on my H just the same as if I did this with a male "friend"?
> 
> I guess this means it's wrong to seek any kind of emotional support from anyone besides your spouse, even when they clearly cannot or will not give it. So I'm getting from this thread that the emotionally neglected/abused spouse is pretty much SOL and needs to either learn to suck it up and allow the abuser/neglecter to remain without fault in this issue, or they can "do the right thing and divorce" but then get labeled as a Walkaway Wife and the left-behind husband becomes the poor victim.


I guess you missed the part where I asked *"do you fall in love with your same gender friends?"* I have friends I talk to about our problems. I bounce ideas off them. But I do not "fall in love with" them. And I also said the emotional disconnect is wrong. If your spouse is pulling away from you, for whatever reason, it's WRONG. BOTH are responsible for the marital problems... but the CHEATER is the one who chose to have an affair. *I* chose to cheat. He didn't MAKE me do it. It was my own decisions and lack of boundaries. 

Unfortunately, those who try to justify their cheating will continue to have a "poor me" attitude about the whole thing. My husband isn't my SOLE means of support, nor am I his. I have my parents, sisters, and friends... I even have TAM. He has my dad (his passed away before we met) and friends. He has the option to join TAM if he wishes, but he has decided that this is my "haven". 

Regarding EAs... if you have crossed into the realm of "I wish I was married to this person instead of my spouse" or start talking about sexual things you want to do with each other, you are NOT "just friends"...you are NOT just getting support form this person. You are, at that point, most definitely cheating on your spouse. And THAT is what I am saying there is no justification in doing.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

baddecisions said:


> Having an affair was literally the worst decision that ive ever made in my life. I was unhappy in my marriage and stupidly thought i could fulfill those missing needs with another man. Seriously, it was so dumb and selfish there are no words to describe my guilt. There is literally nothing good that can come out of an affair. The amount of pain that you cause with your lies and deceit are unimaginable. The short moments of pleasure and happiness end in a lifetime of guilt and misery from your actions. My advice....DONT DO IT


It's nice to see that you have a conscious. My WW doesn't have that. She cheated on every boyfriend/husband she has ever had. Her self esteem is so bad she can't ever get out of the 'fog'. She needs constant validation. However, when she is with one guy it's like eating pizza everyday. It gets old no matter how much you like it. So you need validation from a differnent type of 'food' so that you (shallowly) confirm you have self worth.

My stbxw is 52. She had an affair with a married man at the age of 17 and he was 31. She has been with many men thoughout her life. 

I am husband #5 and was foolish enough to believe all the, "I finallly found my soulmate." "Your the best thing that's ever happened to me."

Ya right, I wanted to believe it. She has all the charm of a princess... and the venim of a snake. 

I alomst feel like my marriage comes from one of those TV shows where the wife kills all her husbands.


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## Pointegirl (Nov 21, 2012)

moxy said:


> Being faithful has to do with not breaking the promises made to the spouse.
> 
> Having opposite sex friends means having the integrity to maintain your boundaries. That lack of integrity is entirely the cheater's fault.
> 
> ...


AMEN to this. Talk to your partner about the problem. If they don't listen, try again, if that doesn't work, go to IC to get ourself and your needs figured out. If you still can't reach your spouse, tell them it is D time. But don't friggin break your vows by being unfaithful! We have been raised as a couple of generations where boundary lines are fuzzy from the time we are kids and now so many of us are paying the price, from both sides of the affairs and bad choices.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

sandc said:


> Dumb question here, why be married to someone who pushes you away? Why not just divorce? Why cheat? Is it money, kids, what?
> 
> It's not a sarcastic question, I've never been in that position and truly don't know.


I stayed because I allowed my WW to put me in a financial position to lower my living standard quite drastically if I left her. She used that as a power card against me. Although she made 25K more a yr than I, her money was always being spent paying for her irresponsible ADULT children (30 & 32) because they would prefer partying like a rock star as opposed to paying their bills and electricity. 

Meanwhile I am trying to keep 'Princess' at a high standard of living... I bought the, "we will be together forever' bull and ran up debt thinking 'together' we will be okay in the long run.

I laugh as I type this because sounds so pathetic...I should have dumped her.. instead, she dumped me and could care less about helping with the bills.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Simply put, do not allow yourself become oblivious to any "warning signals" that the WS may be eminating.`I was in "Fantasyland," so deeply in love with my STBXW for the loyal, loving, and caring wife who I thought she was, all while unbeknownst to me, she was sharing her emotional and physical/sexual "fantasies" with two other men from her past in far-off locales.

In a phrase, "*Trust, but verify*!"


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Just an observation here. This thread has degenerated into the same old argument [between many of the same players] that rages on through CWI and it's turned into a to-and-fro of people's "judgement" of whether an A is good/bad and can be lead to by a troubled marriage or not. Here, the WS' relate their thoughts and the BS' shout them down.

Go to any thread about cheating (in fact, any thread on CWI) and you will see the same self-centered expulsions about people's values... and wanting other people to hear them and convert them.

sanc, asked for:



sandc said:


> I would like for those of you who have been WS's (wayward spouses) to respond in this thread. *I would like to see you give any words of wisdom, warning, reassurance, or even just relate your story here concerning what the outcome was of your affair.* Is your life better or worse? Are you happy with the choices you made? What would you do over if you had a chance?


Notice that the focus is on the WS's relating their experiences?

And sandc's goal is: 



sandc said:


> I would love to be able to link back to this thread and let those who are contemplating an affair read about what it is they are about to purchase.


If this rehash of every other thread is what sandc was looking for, I'm sure that he could just point a WS to *any* thread in CWI.

I actually had a lot of hope for this thread. 

sandc - can I suggest that you delete this thread and start over, but this time, make it a census with some very specific questions that you want answered and it if gets out of hand, PM the people asking them to delete their responses.

Like:

How long ago was your A?
Why did you have an affair (your reasons)
Did you suffer from a lack of boundaries?
When did you realize that you were having an A?
Do you regret your decision to A?
Did you separate after your A?
Did you divorce after your A?
Did you [eventually] reconcile after your A?
What impact did it have on your M during the A?
What impact did it have on your M after your A?
How would you characterize your behavior?
Did you marry your AP?
Did you D your AP? If so, why?
Was the affair "worth it"?

Either way, I think that you're going to need to guide this one or the this is just going to go further astray.

Heck, you might even want to ask others for the questions that they want to answer or might want to see answered.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

life101 said:


> If WS put in the efforts that went into an affair, many marriages could and would have been saved. People respond to different languages and incentives. Again, just because WS is not getting something from a marriage, it doesn't automatically give the license to cheat. Please show me where it is written on the marriage contract.
> 
> *And on the topic of getting another beautiful partner after divorce. Beauty lies inside. My STBXW was a virgin when I met her, she seemed beautiful, pure and sublime. Many desired her, and I felt like I won her. It was all a show. I was nothing but a provider. Outside beauty doesn't always translate to inner beauty and I had to learn it the hard way.*In the end, it all comes down to our own values and self-worth. Do I have strong values that I can take my commitments seriously and never doubt my love and responsibilites? Do I see myself as a strong person who can go through the struggles of life without hurting the near and dear ones?
> 
> ...


Remove the virgin part and my stbxw was sooo beautiful and very skilled at the 'game'. Once I was all in the mask came off. When she told me that when she is in a committed relationship she was a zygote (1 egg+1 sperm= unitied, loyal to a fault). Ya right, after TT me for a year find out what she really meant is: 

I am a serial cheater. I love you for the moment. But eventually I will tire of your affection. At that time I will seek 'renewed' affection elsewhere. And once I am with that person the cycle starts over.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Had the same thought myself TCx...

Massive threadjack from the OP's original stated intent.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

JCD said:


> 'Justify' no. If you want to analyze HOW you got to where you got in a marriage, you could
> 
> a) determine the actions of BOTH parties which lead to the debacle
> 
> ...



My has no values. If you read any of my posts you will see that I did fall for someone who admitted in counseling she has never been faithful to ANY man she has ever been with. therapist classified her as BPD (read up on it). These people are evil. They have no moral compass, they live for the moment. There is not cure.

I am not trying to argue anything here. Just stating a fact, because I lived it for 3 years and am suffering to consequences right now.

Did I neglect her? NO. In fact this woman perceived herself a 'princess'. Said she had been catered to her whole life. I did 99% of the cooking, all the shopping, half the laundry, vacuumed, etc.

Quit ofter I found myself asking her, "Do you think you could participate in this marriage?"

She made excellent money so it wasn't like she was looking for that. What she wanted is for a man to be her court jester.

While I ran around the house taking care of business every morning all she did was sit at her makeup table for 40 minutes putting on fake eyelashes and whatever else it is they think they need to do.

She never bought me anything. Meanwhile I ran up debt out any ying yang trying to please someone who was insatiable. 

YES, there are people out there that are so self centered that they can even fathom where there spouse/bf/gf is coming from.

It's all about them.. and if you stumble, their gone.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Had the same thought myself TCx...
> 
> Massive threadjack from the OP's original stated intent.


Just once, I would love it if the BS' kept their noses out of it. The thread asked for perspectives/words of wisdom from the WS perspective.

I understand that the BS' feel the need to berate their WS' and judge their actions and that they take to opportunity to do so... 

But c'mon people, whether you agree with what we have to say or not is your own issue. We do have some experiences to relate that might just help other WS' through their own journeys.

And consider that we have been in their shoes, don't you think that we might just have something to offer them in terms of advice? Or that maybe that we understand what is going on in their heads one hell of a lot better than you do?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

JCD said:


> So...let's figure this out.
> 
> What is are 'acceptable' grounds to break your vows of marriage?
> 
> ...


Biblical grounds for divorce are threefold: *Abandonment*, *Adultery*, and *Mental/Physical Abuse.*

And with regard to adultery, that used to strictly connotate the physical aspect of sexuality outside of the marriage. A very large proportion of modern-day Christian theologians, however, have almost universally adopted the mantra that an emotional affair outside of the marriage, without any concerted remorse or an attempt at reformation on the part of the WS, also falls into that criteria.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

TCx - you're not the OP. The OP asked for WS input. That does not mean that BS input is sticking "their noses" in it. In fact, many WS do not seem to have a perspective on the nature of affair fog and how it affects your view of your marriage. That is not to say every problem is an imaginary construct. But it is a danger and something which a WS sometimes cannot fathom.

And you protest too much, by the way. This is an open forum. There are always two sides to any story. Asking to restrict a thread (which you did NOT start) to one side is out of line.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

sandc said:


> Dumb question here, why be married to someone who pushes you away? Why not just divorce? Why cheat? Is it money, kids, what?
> 
> It's not a sarcastic question, I've never been in that position and truly don't know.


This is me...I haven't cheated yet, but I want to... I won't (hope not) But it feel like I have to beg for any intimacy. If I don't say I love you, she never will. If I don't initiate a hug, we won't hug. She doesn't exactly push me away...Well, sometimes. As far as sex goes, it is duty sex. She wants it over ASAP, while I want it to last longer.

Divorce? Not going to happen, I had to force her to go back to work.

Money? I make awesome money. It's not enough for 2 households.

Kids? One 9 year old Daughter. I don't want to spend anytime away from her. My parents divorced when I was about 8 years old and moved half way across the country. So maybe I have issues there.

I can easily leave my wife. It would be very hard to leave my daughter. I know what happens when a spouse cheats. My dad did that.

I do agree that people cheat in their mind WAY WAY before they actually do it physically. That scare me because IN MY MIND, I have already cheated. I am not exactly looking for it, but I get so lonely sometimes, even for a hug, a touch, a warm hand...

So Because of TAM...I haven't cheated...


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

TCx said:


> Just once, I would love it if the BS' kept their noses out of it. The thread asked for perspectives/words of wisdom from the WS perspective.
> 
> I understand that the BS' feel the need to berate their WS' and judge their actions and that they take to opportunity to do so...
> 
> ...


Sorry you feel that way. However, if you look at the forum topic it is 'Coping With Infidelity". Most posters (WS) aren't coming her to figure out why they cheated.. and most aren't going to share their stories. WS are not equally represented on this site by any shape of the imagination. 

Not trying to argue, but if the BS didn't reply this thread would have died on page 1.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Ostera said:


> *"I am a serial cheater. I love you for the moment. But eventually I will tire of your affection. At that time I will seek 'renewed' affection elsewhere. And once I am with that person the cycle starts over." *


Well put! Absolutely depicts my STBXW's marital attitude to a T!


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Yes, TCx, I appologize. I, for one, will refrain myself from posting on this thread. I didn't realize it was intended to be a one way traffic. I thought it was supposed to be a conversation. My bad.

Feel free to post your perspective. I am sorry if I caused anyone pain.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

I never thought I would be someone who cheated on their spouse. My husband said the same thing to me when he found out I was cheating. I am not proud of what I did but I wouldn't take it back necessarily. We are working on our marriage now in a way that we haven't before. 
No matter how many times I came to him in the past, trying to make him understand what I needed or what he needed from me, it just ended up in an argument with my feelings hurt even more. 
My point is I cheated because I was unhappy but didn't want to leave him. I thought if I could fulfill some of what was missing (mostly physical pleasure) I could be happy enough to deal with the unhappiness. I know, that makes no sense now but at the time it was working. 
Then I started to become even more frustrated and unhappy. I was mad that I couldn't get the things I was getting from a stranger, from my husband. I grew to hate the sneaking around and the planning. I couldn't stop though because the pleasure I felt when it was happening was like a drug I didn't want to quit. 
He found out because I was careless with my email. Subconsciously I know I did it because I was getting to the end of my rope and something had to change. I was ready for him to leave me and I was fine with it but he surprised me and wanted to work it out. 
He is still really hurt and I'm sure being a man, there is also the ego thing. Had I not been so scared of "divorce" when I started the affair, I may have come to him and told him what was going on instead of actually going through the affair. 
The eye opening thing was the number of people I met in the same situation. In marriages they didn't want to leave because of kids or whatever but wanted the physical connection they were lacking.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Okay, OP here. Bring it back in line or the thread is coming down. In fact, there so much useless arguing in this thread I may do as TCx suggests. Why do these threads all have to turn into snowball fights?

So I ask again.. If YOU cheated, is your life better or worse, why or why not. Give Already Gone up there some advice. Speak to your situation.

We are not interested in debate. Just outcomes.

Thank you.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Kermitty said:


> I never thought I would be someone who cheated on their spouse. My husband said the same thing to me when he found out I was cheating. I am not proud of what I did but I wouldn't take it back necessarily. We are working on our marriage now in a way that we haven't before.
> No matter how many times I came to him in the past, trying to make him understand what I needed or what he needed from me, it just ended up in an argument with my feelings hurt even more.
> My point is I cheated because I was unhappy but didn't want to leave him. I thought if I could fulfill some of what was missing (mostly physical pleasure) I could be happy enough to deal with the unhappiness. I know, that makes no sense now but at the time it was working.
> Then I started to become even more frustrated and unhappy. I was mad that I couldn't get the things I was getting from a stranger, from my husband. I grew to hate the sneaking around and the planning. I couldn't stop though because the pleasure I felt when it was happening was like a drug I didn't want to quit.
> ...


Thanks for your honesty. Why couldn't you just tell him you were unhappy and wanted more or wanted out? Or had you tried?


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

TCx said:


> Just once, I would love it if the BS' kept their noses out of it. The thread asked for perspectives/words of wisdom from the WS perspective.
> 
> I understand that the BS' feel the need to berate their WS' and judge their actions and that they take to opportunity to do so...
> 
> ...


While it is the WS input I was primarily looking for, the WS also has to understand that there will be emotional fallout on the BS side. We have to understand that despite what Hollywood may say, most everyday folk don't tolerate affairs.

I don't expect too many happy endings to any of these stories. I know of a few where the WS and the AP ran off and are living happily together. But the BS and children left behind are in emotional turmoil. I've yet to read a firsthand account of someone cheating and everyone ends up happy about it.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

sandc said:


> If YOU cheated, is your life better or worse, why or why not. Give Already Gone up there some advice. Speak to your situation.
> 
> We are not interested in debate. Just outcomes.
> 
> Thank you.


The place where I am is SOOO close it does scare me. I don't know if this qualifies as an EA but it has all the appearance of one...


I have 2 lady friend who used to work in the same building as I do and all 3 of us would eat lunch together. Sometimes it became personal..

One time they were discussing what they were going to make their husbands for dinner and asked me what my wife was going to make...I said...I was making Jambalaya for my wife...I do most of the cooking....That lead into more little discussions...Over six months or so they both knew way more about me and me about them than I ever thought would happen.

Now, their business closed and I no longer see them...One of them started calling me wanting to have lunch again like we all used to... She has some marriage issues too. We just haven't set up a time to do lunch... At this point... If we have lunch...Even I would call this an EA. It may have been just friends before because we just worked i the same building. Now it will take effort to get together...It's much more than that to try to explain...Most of yall have been at the point I am at now.


However, my wife has met them. I ever told her about the W calling me wanting to do lunch...She said why would you NOT want to have lunch....Is my wife an idiot?


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

sandc said:


> Thanks for your honesty. Why couldn't you just tell him you were unhappy and wanted more or wanted out? Or had you tried?


I had tried to communicate that I was unhappy but nothing ever changed. He kept saying he was doing his best....well if that was his best, what more could i ask for. I was scared of Divorce and didn't see that as an option. The only option I saw was to try to make myself happy in another way. While I didn't wake up one day and say "I'm going to have an affair", once the opportunity presented itself, it was too hard to resist.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Already Gone said:


> The place where I am is SOOO close it does scare me. I don't know if this qualifies as an EA but it has all the appearance of one...
> 
> However, my wife has met them. I ever told her about the W calling me wanting to do lunch...She said why would you NOT want to have lunch....Is my wife an idiot?


Your wife obviously trusts you and believes men and women can be just friends. I probably would have said the same thing to my husband unless he gave me reason to believe there was something more going on.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Kermitty said:


> Your wife obviously trusts you and believes men and women can be just friends. I probably would have said the same thing to my husband unless he gave me reason to believe there was something more going on.


Nothing is going on here.. The point I wanted to make is where the line is...I know...If I have to ask, I've probably crossed it. The fact remains is that this "woman" beautiful I must add wants to spen time with me by having a simple lunch. That's all it may be...just lunch. Where as my wife... I have been wanting a dinner date with her for months and she doesn't seen to want to. I don't get it.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Already Gone said:


> Nothing is going on here.. The point I wanted to make is where the line is...I know...If I have to ask, I've probably crossed it. The fact remains is that this "woman" beautiful I must add wants to spen time with me by having a simple lunch. That's all it may be...just lunch. Where as my wife... I have been wanting a dinner date with her for months and she doesn't seen to want to. I don't get it.


OH, sorry I missed the point. Did you actually point that out to your wife?


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Kermitty,

Yes, I’ve talked to my wife so much about my “feelings” I feel like a weenie.

I am the one that wants more passion, more affection, more intimacy, more hugs throughout the day, More I…Some I Love You’s. I don’t even get an ILY….

Christmas Eve.. It doesn’t matter what all happened…Just a lot of different things. When she finally came to bed I was upset and told her that our marriage isn’t working. She acted like she didn’t here me so I repeated it about four times. 

I Showed her about 7 marriage books that I have on my night stand that I read every night. “why do you think I read these books”? She just plays dumb… “What do you want to do to help our marriage”, I asked her…

All this happened before about 9 months ago. For about 6 months she gets real sexual and we have sex 3-4 times a week…Duty” sex…routine sex… Just enough to keep me happy. Still no hugs, kisses, affection, no I Lou you’s. Then the sex slowly wanes to once every 10 days ….

So like before, I said thing like I don’t feel you love me, I don’t feel your attracted to me, I don’t feel you appreciate me, (sounds like a weenie to me, not a man)

There was more to the conversation… We did have sex. It seemed like pity sex to me.

Now here we go again. We will up the sex for a while, I still won't get the intimacy that I want and we will be back to this all over again. She still thinks its the SEX I am after. I'll take what I can get. Even if it is just sex. I'll treat it like that. 

I just don't understand her


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Kermitty said:


> I had tried to communicate that I was unhappy but nothing ever changed. He kept saying he was doing his best....well if that was his best, what more could i ask for. I was scared of Divorce and didn't see that as an option. The only option I saw was to try to make myself happy in another way. While I didn't wake up one day and say "I'm going to have an affair", once the opportunity presented itself, it was too hard to resist.


This is kind of how I feel


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

Hi Sandc! Since my EA, I would say my life is better, simply because I am living more honestly. Before the EA, I lied about my feelings and smiled and did what I had to do. During the EA, I lied about my whereabouts and who I was talking to. It was very stressful. Covering your tracks, lying, the deceit, feeling a million miles away when your spouse talks, it just doesn't feel RIGHT to me. 

Kermitty, mine happened the same way. Just feeling lonely and unfulfilled and letting my boundaries get WAY too loose. I didn't wake up and say, I want to meet another man and plan to leave my husband for him.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

ANNIE! I was hoping you'd find this thread. But let's be honest, you came to TAM, you took the advice given you, and you fought for your marriage. Even when you were fighting yourself.

YOU are why your life is better.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Already gone,
I can certainly sympathize. I wish I had some wisdom to share but obviously I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just lucky that my husband is willing to work things out although I'm not positive things will work out. Would your wife be willing to see a therapist with you. Maybe an impartial third party would help her see your point.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

How many times have we read exactly what Kermitty is saying? I'm new to TAM and I can cite 8 or 9 WS who say EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

And yet to listen to the BS, it's all cake eating nonesense and that we gleefully jumped into the arms of whatever random stranger happened to be nearby at the moment.

There seem to be two basic WS.

The first ARE the cake eaters: people who feel entitled to their little bit of something on the side as merited by their gender (mostly male), attractiveness (AHEM) or wealth/social status. They feel they 'settled' and now they are 'getting what is coming to them.'

What is there to say about that? Not much. I don't know what significant segment of the population of cheaters that is.

BUT...here is the uncomfortable section: the ones that the BS want to cover their ears and go "LA LA LA LA!" over.

In *two* pages...we have *4* spouses who said the exact same thing

1) We were dissatisfied with our spouses.

2) We brought those concerns to our BS.

3) Our BS *ignored or dismissed the issues entirely!*

4) Eventually the emotions to the BS got...frayed.

5) There was a slow slide unnoticed by the WS into a stronger emotional bond to...well, not to put too fine a point on it BS, but to someone who gave a fvck about the WS.

6) We cheated.

So...the signs were all there, but the BS, for whatever reason, had to come to the point of being threatened with DIVORCE or experience an episode of CHEATING to get their heads out of their fundements.

Much easier to say 'they are sociopaths' and move on.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Please stick to the intent of the thread. We're not debating here. You can debate this elsewhere.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

JCD said:


> How many times have we read exactly what Kermitty is saying? I'm new to TAM and I can cite 8 or 9 WS who say EXACTLY THE SAME THING.
> 
> And yet to listen to the BS, it's all cake eating nonesense and that we gleefully jumped into the arms of whatever random stranger happened to be nearby at the moment.
> 
> ...


Dude, enough.

Your internal need to validate your actions and alleviate some of your guilt is painfully transparent and its becoming nauseating. Stop whining about the injustices of your life that forced you to betray your loved ones and own your sh*t dude.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

@Pit-of-my-stomach - you should have stopped at 'dude enough'. Your post is disrespectful and it carries on a fight/debate that sandc (the OP) has asked that you not continue. Look at the post right above yours.

@JCD - It's a lost cause. No matter how long you debate, he's not going to see reason because he's not actually listening to what you are saying (nor does he want to hear it). He is hearing what he wants to hear. sandc has asked people not to debate stuff in this thread. Let his last words be their own example of his character and each of us can draw our own conclusions.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Taking the thread down tomorrow.

Go ahead guys. Fire your parting shots.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

I got like 4 likes out of this thread, Sandc...you're cruel to take those away . But seriously, people could go round and round constantly on the whole sociopathic cake eater WS vs the poor neglected WS. For 99% of WS it is probably a mixture of both. 

And thanks for your compliment. I am currently fighting...I want to be an awesome wife to J.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

life101 said:


> In case of a truly remorseful WS, I am all in for an honest R before ending the marriage. We all deserve second chances, some of us might even more.


I see your point clearly, but respectfully disagree.

No betraying person "deserves" a second chance. The act of betrayal within a marriage may be the single most cruelest thing one human can do to another. In many cultures it is a capitol offense. It is a marital capitol crime. I think that a betrayer is _unfathomably_ lucky to be given a second chance. And kudos to people who do grant a pardon. Although, some do it foolishly. To say they "deserve" a second chance is to fully justify the betrayal. I gave my first wife two second chances only to be betrayed again.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Kermitty said:


> Already gone,
> I can certainly sympathize. I wish I had some wisdom to share but obviously I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just lucky that my husband is willing to work things out although I'm not positive things will work out. Would your wife be willing to see a therapist with you. Maybe an impartial third party would help her see your point.


I would like for the both of us to see a therapist. She believes I am the on with the issues. I am the one who need therapy. My wife just doesn't want to really listen to me. 

SANDC...

I need to hear stories of spouses who cheat.... It helps me see how it hurts the BS... Because of TAM... I can see where I am at. I have a different Point of view. TAM , I believe has helped me not cross that line... I can actually see the line now, if that makes any sense.

If I were to cross that line and have an A, I don't want a second chance... It would be an "exit" affair. I just have to learn to accept that I will NEVER get the love I am after. Maybe that doesn't exist. Not for me anyway. 

Believe me.... TAM has helped. It may be hard to stop a freight train though


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

AnnieAsh said:


> I got like 4 likes out of this thread, Sandc...you're cruel to take those away . But seriously, people could go round and round constantly on the whole sociopathic cake eater WS vs the poor neglected WS. For 99% of WS it is probably a mixture of both.
> 
> And thanks for your compliment. I am currently fighting...I want to be an awesome wife to J.


I'll give you four likes on your thread.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

AG, if that is your position then this thread is useless to you. If you need to have an exit affair you need to just divorce. Then have your exit affair. You don't have to agree with me but I think marriage vows mean something. 

At any rate this thread was completely hijacked and effectively useless. It will be deleted tomorrow.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Okay. Back to the original point.

If you intend to cheat, than anything I say will mean nothing to you. You've decided that you want outside gratification without 'losing' anything.

This is a pipe dream, as at the very least, you will lose the ability to look in the mirror as easily as you once did. That realization may not come now, but it will come. It's a low lying ache in me, even though I was able to 'keep it in my pants' for a couple of ladies. I WANTED to do it.

What was my 'affair kryptonite'? My son. See...if I had put it on the 'love and respect' of my wife, well...that's a self defeating problem. To be IN a situation where I want to cheat, my feelings for my wife would already have been diminished enough that her opinion would be of little weight in my decision.

But...as an example to my son. I tried to imagine telling him 'your mother is divorcing me because I couldn't keep my pecker in my pants.' That was TOTALLY humiliating! This protected me from PAs.

However, let me warn you that this type of 'protection' had a downside. I also imagined telling my son "your life is crap because I divorced your mother because she hurt my feelings.' Seems pretty weak, huh? That made me put up with crap in my marriage that I could have walked away from.

But divorce shouldn't be easy.

Now...if right now you are looking around and saying 'But...my friend Madge isn't like that. She's no threat to my marriage at all..." My friend, YOU came up with the name...so she's a threat. If not of sex, of hijacking emotions and investment in your spouse. Cut her out. It's painful. I did it. 

But that doesn't solve the problem of a spouse with their head up their fundement. 

First, you photocopy last year's tax returns, as many of your spouses check stubs as possible, get the numbers and amounts of all the bank accounts, the 401k, the IRA, the insurance accounts, the mortagage, the second mortgage etc.

This is gathered and stored somewhere safe.

Than you find a shark of a lawyer (don't go cheap...find the best you can)

You don't go to this person, but you get a business card and you make an appointment. You pay them a small retainer up front for the appointment...to take them off the table for you spouse.

Then you sit with your spouse and say "I've set an appointment with X Esquire in two months. I don't think our marriage is working and I have a lot of resentment about X, Y, and Z. I am giving you time before I talk to him to improve things. Here is the name of three marriage counselors. If you can find someone else, that's grand, but we aren't fixing things on our own or they'd be fixed by now. Oh...that last name is the name of a bancruptcy lawyer. That's in case you think I'm kidding. Half the couples who divorce have to declare bancruptcy."

They, of course, will hit you with all YOUR failings.

Here is the hardest part. LISTEN. Because they are correct. They feel that way.

But you are opening up a dialog.

This is better than cheating by a longshot.

sandc, I hope this is more in keeping with what you wanted.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

You know, I think this whole thread, threadjack included, actually does exactly what the OP intended. It illustrates just how deep the level of pain cheating causes is and just how intense the contempt for those who stray can be - regardless of their circumstance or justification. There is very much a scarlet "A" that all of us who have ventured outside of our marriages get to wear, and it doesn't come with an asterisk that says, "BUT I HAD A REASON!!" If anyone can read this, read stories like mine of successful reconciliation and others of eventual divorce, and read the utter derision levied at cheaters and still want to join the club they are either a masochist or an idiot. 

Personally I don't think looking at your spouse and telling them, "I'm leaving you" has all that much less emotional impact than cheating. But I do think that at least you spare them the lying and deceit which has an enormous emotional impact. At least you are honest, at least you maintain your honor, at least you can always say you were faithful to your spouse - even if the marriage fails.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Acoa said:


> My WW engaged in FB chats with OM and flirted to experience the thrill/high of pushing boundaries to see how far she could take it and still call it off. She likened it to holding your hand over a candle flame. How long and how close could you hold it and not get burned?
> 
> The problem with this game is eventually you will get burned. It is a stupid game to play, and completely disrespects the betrayed spouse and the marriage.


My WW and I are 7 months past DDay. And while I caught her before it went physical, our marriage is far from "better".

Some things have improved. Mainly communication. I am more honest about my emotions and my needs. We talk more and fight when we disagree. Which I think is healthy as long as the 'fight' is respectful and not abusive.

Lots of things are worse now than prior. Number one on that list is trust. Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away I actually believed things when she said them to me. Now I don't. I question her motives and risk/benefit of truth vs lie and look for evidence to support her words. 7 months and I am still on re alert, looking, probing and spying. It's an obsession, it's destructive and I can't stop for fear if let my guard down she will hurt me again. 

I am giving it time and weekly therapy in hopes that with time things get better. However if she lies to me again, or I can't get past my own hyper vigilance issues our marriage will not survive.

I cans see that most WS would not contribute to this thread. It's too bad as it would have need interesting. But I thinks most BS are like my WW. They deny, then blame shift until they are caught. Only in the face on evidence or as a last ditch effort to save the marrige do they admit. Once the story is out they want to quickly acknowledge that were wrong then never bring it up again. Talking about the Reasons behind the A is as difficult for the WS as building back trust is for the BS. 

So, months after Dday here I sit. Knowing i still love her, but wondering if I can live with her, knowing the pain she is capable of causing me.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Already Gone said:


> If I were to cross that line and have an A, I don't want a second chance... It would be an "exit" affair. I just have to learn to accept that I will NEVER get the love I am after. Maybe that doesn't exist. Not for me anyway.
> 
> Believe me.... TAM has helped. It may be hard to stop a freight train though


I have certainly had those thoughts and still have them. I'm always wondering is this just what marriage is like? Am I expecting feelings that don't exist in real marriages? I'm hoping this site will help me figure things out as well as the therapist I'm seeing. I hope the same for you, *Already Gone*

I have to admit that had I found this site before my EA, I may have not gone through with it. It's hard to say now. It would have helped to know that so many are going through the same thoughts as I was and perhaps the threat of divorce would have been enough. I don't like to dwell on what ifs though. Every situation is certainly different and while I feel that an affair has done things to help my marriage that nothing else had, I don't intend it to be a blanket statement to all or to justify my cheating. It is just the reality of my situation.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> No betraying person "deserves" a second chance. The act of betrayal within a marriage may be the single most cruelest thing one human can do to another. In many cultures it is a capitol offense. It is a marital capitol crime. I think that a betrayer is _unfathomably_ lucky to be given a second chance. And kudos to people who do grant a pardon. Although, some do it foolishly. To say they "deserve" a second chance is to fully justify the betrayal. I gave my first wife two second chances only to be betrayed again.


I don't want to pick on you specifically as it is obvious you have been through enough. i am very sorry your wife took advantage of your trust and forgiveness. 

I'm sorry this thread turned into this debate but I can't sit quietly while people generalize about what I've done or what kind of person I am. Yes, I betrayed my husband and I am willing to do whatever he asks to gain his trust again. I have no problem with him asking to see my phone and looking through my email and so forth. I don't think I am in the minority. 

I don't believe this mistake defines the kind of person I am. How many nights did I spend crying on the couch because my husband was not fulfilling his end of the "deal". I betrayed him in a more tangible way but he had been hurting me slowly for many years. If I don't deserve a second chance than I would think he doesn't either. That doesn't seem right. 

sorry, couldn't help the rant.


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## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> I have to admit that had I found this site before my EA, I may have not gone through with it.


sandc, this is why you need to leave the thread up.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

I've asked the mods if this thread can be merged with the new debate thread.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

sandc said:


> I've asked the mods if this thread can be merged with the new debate thread.


sandc, as a former WS, I think there is a lot of value in a thread like this. I welcome the opportunity to discuss this subject, particularly, when the OP of the thread is someone, like you, who genuinely wishes to present a forum for honest, healthy discussion without the rancor and character assassinations of WS's that often occur on other threads.

Currently, I haven't had an opportunity to join in this discussion, as B1, my husband, is on vacation this week and he and I are spending some amazing quality and quantity time together enjoying what is becoming a very successful reconciliation 7 months from D-Day.

If this thread remains up and active I would like to join the discussion later. I do thank you for your contribution to TAM. 

~EI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Tears PM'd me and asked me to share her story here...



tears said:


> A while back you asked me to post my story in the "Life after the affair" thread. I just thought I'd do it through you. Please feel free to edit this message and add your own tidbits of wisdom before you post it on the thread.
> 
> 
> I need to start by saying that it was the worst decision I've ever made and I deeply regret it.
> ...


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Tears is good people.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

necro but still...



JCD said:


> You know...I was just thinking the same thing about your ex.


but you still chose to cheat vs leaving an unfulfilling relationship right? And then blaming your partner for your actions even while blaming them for their own...

You dont seem very remorseful at all. your posts seem more akin to something found on DC's site, not understanding the hurt of what cheating does, only seeing your perspective, feeling only your emotions.



Waking up to life said:


> So...if my H is emotionally neglectful, distant, blaming, and flat out difficult to be around, and I start spending a lot of time with my female close friends because they at least are nice to me and make me feel valued as a person, I'm cheating on my H just the same as if I did this with a male "friend"?
> 
> *I guess this means it's wrong to seek any kind of emotional support from anyone besides your spouse, even when they clearly cannot or will not give it.* So I'm getting from this thread that the emotionally neglected/abused spouse is pretty much SOL and needs to either learn to suck it up and allow the abuser/neglecter to remain without fault in this issue, or they can "do the right thing and divorce" but then get labeled as a Walkaway Wife and the left-behind husband becomes the poor victim.


*Euphimism for emotional cheating. You always have the option to leave or make an ultimatum. I've never known anyone to be labeled for leaving an abusive partner.*


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

anonim said:


> necro but still...
> 
> 
> but you still chose to cheat vs leaving an unfulfilling relationship right? And then blaming your partner for your actions even while blaming them for their own...
> ...


There are lots of reasons not to leave. 

You might believe divorce is wrong, struggle to stay in an unsatisfying marriage, and fall into an affair in a moment of weakness.

You might stay out of duty to the children.

You might be financially unable to leave the marriage.

You might be in a culture that does not permit divorce. Not everyone on TAM is in North America.

You might not understand your sexuality, and e taken by surprise when the hormones hike up.

Note, I am NOT defending infidelity in the slightest. I believe affairs are wrong. But I think the notion of "If your marriage isn't giving you what you want, divorce" is also wrong. It's just not at simple as you paint it.


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## PastOM (Apr 12, 2013)

I don't mean to illicit fury from the BSs here, but this is my take:

I am absolutely positive that 100% of WSs at some point before the affair have had a conversation about how they would NEVER have an affair. I am positive that the conversation included statements about not wanting to cause pain to the H/W as a primary reason, and the loss of marriage, disruption to family etc., as another. All of us draw those boundaries and distinctions at some point in our lives, professing that the BIG consequence provides sufficient grounds to abstain.

Yet, it happens. Why? My best explanation is that an affair is not a single event. It is a number of very small events; a long chain of tiny occurrences, each of which becomes justifiable (or inconsequential) when compared to the BIG consequence.

If you are a smoker of cigarettes, you may understand an analogy. All smokers understand that smoking with more than likely be the cause of their premature death. A huge consequence right? The biggest perhaps. If I were to tell a normal cognitively sufficient adult: if you smoke this one cigarette, it will kill you within 10 seconds, they will not light it. For sure, they understand that the consequence of that one event is so catastrophic, that they will abstain - no matter how badly they think they need to smoke.

Yet, that same adult has no problem removing a cigarette from the box, inserting it into their mouth, steadying it, reaching for a lighter, put the lighter within distance, ignite the lighter, draw the flame to the tip of the cigarette, take a puff. These actions have no major consequences. Indeed, there are non at all, save the emotional knowledge that you are doing something that you shouldn't do, would feel better if you didn't do, and know that very, very soon you won't do anymore. Those emotional impulses are put aside because right now, there is no "real" consequences to the immediate action.

Problem is, after some time, the smoker learns tools and excuses to set aside the guilt feelings more and more. Knowledge of the cumulative harm of the past cigarettes is buried deeper, and shrouded in excuses: I'm bored, it relaxes me etc. The shame and guilt is there; sometimes the realization that the BIG consequence might be around the corner raises its ugly head. Nevertheless, removing one more from the box etc., has no discernible consequence. The cycle repeats.

Similarly, with an affair, each small event is perceived as inconsequential. The BIG consequence may be at the back of the WSs mind, but it is never present enough, real enough to stop the small event from occurring. For example, in my case, the EA started almost imperceptibly. In fact, had I not become educated about all of this after the fact, I would never have recognized it. Emails show small phrases that started the entire thing. Of course each of these small events are inconsequential to the WS as "feeling low that day," or "feeling ignored or lonely, so nice to finally talk to someone who gets it." Like it or not, those words are merely memorializing a set of deep feelings that the WS has about their marriage. Those feelings provide the bases of the statements being inconsequential, having zero impact. Yes, the WS is fully aware that some where down the road the BIG consequence may be lurking, but this small event has no consequence.

Now throw in the limbic system, fog, denial, what have you, and the cumulative effect of each of the small events is buried deeper, allowing the escalation. Justification is not the issue. Remorse and guilt do raise their ugly head, but now each small event, even though bigger, does not come close to the BIG consequence, but is seen to be equally inconsequential given the "good" feelings that the affair brings.

If at any point the WS understood that following through with a single small event would actually cause the BIG consequence, then 99% of affairs would likely never happen.

I'm not speaking to the addictive nature of an affair. From what I have read on TAM, the accounts are all based on the BIG consequence while trying to come to terms with all of the individual small events. From the other side, the individual small events are the affair and not the BIG consequence. 

*This is not a justification for an affair. I DO NOT AGREE WITH OR SUPPORT ANYONE HAVING AN AFFAIR.*

I thought that sandc asked a great question and I do wish to participate in providing some thoughts.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Thanks pastOM for providing such a great look from the WS side. I had that very same conversation with my husband, saying I would leave him before I got to the point of cheating. A few years later, that decision wasn't as clear and easy as I thought it would be. 
It's interesting that so many will post on a sexless marriage thread that one should not be surprised if their sexless spouse is going to cheat or already is. Yet when that spouse admits to cheating, just as many seem to not understand how they could do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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