# Unaffectionate wife, self devastated.



## IsAnyoneHappy (Jun 13, 2012)

Ok, so after some reading i've taken the plunge to join.

I'm looking for thoughts, opinions, ideas and general advice.

My story:

Married for nearly 13 years, together 15 years, with an 8 year old boy and 1 year old girl.
Life began with perhaps basic sex once a week. My wife is low drive and I would class myself as medium to high.
What can I say, I fell in love with her and thought it was ok.
I found it strange she would kiss, but without tongues, her thinking that was a bit naughty.
The first time we has sex, I went down on her and she stopped me after about a minute or two.
Didn't think anything of it.
Next time, she just said she didn't really like that, so I did not persist not wanting her to do anything she did not want to do.
But I loved her.
She told me she didn't do the BJ thing, so that was off the cards.
Still I loved her and thought that would be ok.

Sex slowed to once a month.
Still I loved her.

We had more sex when she fell pregnant with our son, although looking back it was only a few times before she fell pregnant.

Sex fairly much dried up after that.
But I loved her and I loved my son.

As both being only children ourselves, we decided to have another child.
Again, she fell pregnant quickly, so not much sex.

No sex during pregnancy and following a few complications after, heavy bleeding, we have had sex once in 20 months since our daughter was conceived.


That's not really all though.
I'm an affectionate guy, I like to hug, I like to kiss, I like to touch.
I do this without thinking and without it being a precursor to sex.
It's just how I am.

About 4 years ago, we went through a rough patch where I brought up that she was never affectionate back to me.
Never any time to hug or kiss me, never standing at the window to wave goodbye, 
never looking back to wave when she drives off.
But always time to do so for others.
We got it out in the open and things got better affection wise for, well, about 6 months before it started to slip from her perspective.
I didn't notice really at the time as I was still hugging and showing affection plenty.
But I still loved her.


Shortly before our daughter was born I had to move away for work.
I Skyped every night and always took part at the weekends, helping out with both kids and around the house.
I would come back tired, she was tired, but I always had time to hug or kiss her, she never did for me.
We just seemed to co-exist together with her never showing affection.


Since being back home now, I have again been pushed to the bottom of the pile.
It seems as though I am living with a friend, a room-mate or a sister.


Recently I gave up, stopped hugging and kissing.
If I don't give her a goodnight kiss in bed, she never kisses me, ever.

We have talked about this recently, I have explained just how hurt I am.
She said she felt horrible when I didn't hug her.
I said that was how she made me feel all these years by not hugging me.
I even brought up that, having thought back over the years, when we do have sex, she never lets me see her naked and I honestly can't recall when she has even ever touched my 'old man'.


Does she love me? She says she does, but her actions just don't tell me that.
Will she get better? I honestly don't think she has it in her.
Ok, short term maybe, but I feel at my wits end.
I feel hurt and unloved.

I don't even know if I want it to work, but am scared rigid of not seeing the kids regularly.

I've lost hope on the sex front, ok so some kissing, me helping her by hand and then intercourse may occur, but after having the 'whole platter' of sexual activities in pre marriage relationships, can I really not have any of that again, ever?

I just don't know.

I feel totally lost and completely alone in all of this.
If I talk to her, I just get the whole 'splitting up the family' talk, cold shoulder, tears, and the occasional half hearted attempt at some affection.

I just know I can't be in this situation in 6 months or a year or two years.
It is crippling me.
I cant sleep, or eat and my work is suffering.


Do I still love her? well after 15 years and 2 kids, yes I do.
Am I in love with her? I don't think I am.




Thanks for reading.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Nice post. You are not alone in that many men are in your situation.

The first thing you should think about is that women do not connect sex to love the way men do. A woman who agrees to sex loves that man, but a man who agrees to sex would agree to sex with any woman... So women do not view men who want sex as an action of love.. So, what is the thing you could do that would make your wife feel loved? Does your wife lack something you are doing (non sexual) that makes her feel alone, unloved and similar to you? If that's the case you must fix that.

If your wife feels loved, happy, satisifed with life, you may want to show her your letter.


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## IsAnyoneHappy (Jun 13, 2012)

Thanks Hicks.
She feels loved, happy and satisfied with life by me being affectionate towards her.
Like I say I am a hugger and very tactile which she says makes her feel loved.
I do my share of 'work' about the house.

My biggest concern aside from her lack of affection is perhaps:
If I mention other sexual activities that I know she does not want to do, how can we then do them without me always thinking i've pressured her into doing something for me that she obviously doesn't want to do - or she would have in 15 years.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

IAH - welcome! Firstly, thank-you for using paragraphs...it makes reading a long post so much easier than just seeing a bloody great big block of text!

I fully sympathise with you and your dilemma....Me, and many other husbands on here are in the same boat. 

Be warned though...many will tell you its your fault for not wooing her and not understanding her, not doing your fair share round the house etc.

I think ytou are simply married to someone for whom sexual intimacy with her husband just doesnt register and she can't/won't understand how important it is to you.

You are in a dilemma...you have children you love and want to be a constant feature in your life...yet you are also a man with sexual needs. 

Please don't even suggest on here that you might get your sexual needs met elsewhere but stay married. You will be shot down!

Sorry I haven't been able to 'help' you.... I'm at a loss too, brother.


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## IsAnyoneHappy (Jun 13, 2012)

7737 - thanks for your reply.

I do plenty about the house and with the kids.
Like I say, I am affectionate towards her and she loves that.

I just don't get anything back in return.
It's like it just never crosses her mind to just walk up to me and give me a hug, or a kiss. Yet she is the first to give friends and family a hug and kiss on greeting/goodbyes.

If I don't kiss her goodnight, she never reaches across and kisses me.

I just don't get it.

All I know is I feel miserable, hurt and trapped.
Is this my lot for the rest of my life?
This can't be what it is all about, surely.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

IsAnyoneHappy said:


> My biggest concern aside from her lack of affection is perhaps:
> If I mention other sexual activities that I know she does not want to do, how can we then do them without me always thinking i've pressured her into doing something for me that she obviously doesn't want to do - or she would have in 15 years.


What you have to wrap your head around is it is OK to be selfish in a marriage, and if your wife does something to please you, she is doing it out of love, and for this reason you will be happy.


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## IsAnyoneHappy (Jun 13, 2012)

Hicks said:


> What you have to wrap your head around is it is OK to be selfish in a marriage, and if your wife does something to please you, she is doing it out of love, and for this reason you will be happy.


If she was do it out of love, surely she would be doing it already.

It's frustrating.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

IsAnyoneHappy said:


> If she was do it out of love, surely she would be doing it already.


Not true.... She doesn't understand what sex means to a man. She understands that you want it.... But looking through her own lens sex is not important... She can't empathize with you. She thinks you are masturbating in her.

This is why it is crucial that you understand what makes her feel loved and apprecaited... So you can talk about how you do those things for her, and the thing that makes you as a man feel that way is sexual fulfillment.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

IAH - I will probably get shot down and told to go and rot in hell for saying this....but what the hell....I had an affair about 10 years ago. My wife doesnt know and my 'lover' is no longer alive.

However, I can say that whilst I was having the affair my marriage was better. Why?
Well, I no longer felt resentful towards my wife for ignoring me sexually, I did my share round the house etc with no expectation or hope of sex. 
It was as if a big weight had been lifted off my shoulders. 

I was never going to 'leave'....'she' was in the same boat...a husband who ignored her. She wasnt going to leave him either...we were each others 'oasis in a desert'. It made us both happier in our 'other' lives.

I know affairs are wrong etc, and I'm not saying that you should have one or a 'friend with benefits'... All I am saying is that not everything in life is black and white.....


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## IsAnyoneHappy (Jun 13, 2012)

True 7737.
Choices in life are up to the individual.

You made a choice, and while others may not agree, I would not criticize you. You did what you felt you had to.

I admit to having been tempted and have turned down offers, but I think, for me, if my wife found out it would only make it worse for access to the kids and their future impression of me. If that makes sense.

Why, if you don't mind me asking were you never going to 'leave'?


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## IsAnyoneHappy (Jun 13, 2012)

Hicks, I saw this on MMSL
Church Lady And The Original Sin | Married Man Sex Life

It seems to be pretty much what i'm fighting with her.
How do you even go about changing that?

Or can you?


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## Married&Confused (Jan 19, 2011)

7737 said:


> IAH - I will probably get shot down and told to go and rot in hell for saying this....but what the hell....I had an affair about 10 years ago. My wife doesnt know and my 'lover' is no longer alive.
> 
> However, I can say that whilst I was having the affair my marriage was better. Why?
> Well, I no longer felt resentful towards my wife for ignoring me sexually, I did my share round the house etc with no expectation or hope of sex.
> ...


i was in the same situation and had an affair. my wife told me that while i was having an affair she was happy that i wasn't pressuring her for sex. if they ever knew!

unfortunately i don't have a resolution. i would make two suggestions. first, do you know if she has any past history of sexual abuse? this may play a part in her inability to physically connect with you.

second, have you tried marriage counseling? if not, tell her you want to start going. if she says she doesn't want to go, tell her you will go alone. this shows you are serious about doing something.

at a minimum you will either find a way to live with her as she is, find a way to change her or find a way to leave her.


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## IsAnyoneHappy (Jun 13, 2012)

M&C

I am confident abuse does not play any part.
I am worried about short term improvements but it sliding again.

Having gone through all of this once, I now find myself going through it all again a second time.

I'm not sure I have the strength to go through it again.
Unfortunately, for the last month I have been toying with your latter suggestion, leaving, but it's the pull of the kids that cripples me every time.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

Yup...the children. Makes it so much tougher.


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## hldnhope (Apr 10, 2012)

IsAnyoneHappy said:


> Thanks Hicks.
> She feels loved, happy and satisfied with life by me being affectionate towards her.
> Like I say I am a hugger and very tactile which she says makes her feel loved.
> I do my share of 'work' about the house.
> ...


This is fine for YOU, but maybe physical touch is not her primary love language...

Get yourself the book 5 love languages by Gary Chapman:

Amazon.com: The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love That Lasts (9780802473158): Gary D. Chapman: Books

Seems like she is not getting her 'love tank' filled by you. You can go on-line too and take thie love languages quiz (and have her do this as well):

The 5 Love Languages | The 5 Love Languages®

This may give you some more insight into what's going on.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

IsAnyoneHappy said:


> Thanks Hicks.
> She feels loved, happy and satisfied with life by me being affectionate towards her.
> Like I say I am a hugger and very tactile which she says makes her feel loved.
> I do my share of 'work' about the house.
> ...


Get a hold of His Needs Her Needs and have both of you fill out the questionaire. This can often help to make sure that you are really meeting her needs (it is not uncommon for people to think they need/want one thing when in fact it is something else). It may help you work smarter.

Also, take a look at the Married Mans Sex life (I prefer the book over the blog). Some interesting information that will help you imporve yourself and up the attraction. It is by no means fool proof, but there are some good suggestions.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

It sounds like your wife isn't sexually attracted to you. You have my sympathies. It's possible that it's not just you. It's possible that your wife just has no sexual feelings at all. However, give that she's affectionate with other people besides you, she may just not be attracted to you, in particular.

That may not be your fault. Maybe you haven't changed since your wedding. She may have married you because she thought you would be a good father.

I think the best long-term solution is Athol Kay's blog and books. Run the MAP and, in a few months, your wife may think you're sexy again.

You've also dabbled with MEM's thermostat approach. This is what got immediate notice. Since you are not a priority to your wife (she's cold), you stopped making her a priority to you (you matched her temperature). She saw that and didn't like it. Unfortunately, you didn't stick to it and demand changes. You just raised your temperature back to where she likes it.

You could have offered to raise your temperature as long as she raised hers as well. I think this method is inferior to Athol's because it requires conscious choices on the part of the LD partner (usually the wife). Even though every human relationship is a form of mutually beneficial exchange, most women have a negatively visceral reaction to men making demands in a relationship. Even though it is perfectly reasonable for a husband to tell his wife that he's willing to meet her needs, but he requires her to meet his needs, many wives will rankle at the arrangement.

Athol's method results in the wife subconsciously giving more attention to her husband because he is becoming sexier to her. It's more organic and much more likely to result in your wife having more sex with you without even understanding why.

Good luck.


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## IsAnyoneHappy (Jun 13, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> I think the best long-term solution is Athol Kay's blog and books. Run the MAP and, in a few months, your wife may think you're sexy again.



Apologies, not been able to log on for a while.

PHT, I've read quite a bit of Athol's stuff.
I've upped Alpha and reduced Beta and vice versa.
I've spent time at the gym to improve my physical appearance only for her to complain she didn't like me looking 'too bulky'.

I don't see the MAP as working, I just don't see her as changing her attitude to sex at all.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

IsAnyoneHappy said:


> Apologies, not been able to log on for a while.
> 
> PHT, I've read quite a bit of Athol's stuff.
> I've upped Alpha and reduced Beta and vice versa.
> ...


There are two possibilities. The first is that the MAP isn't working. The second is that it is.

I think the MAP will usually work. But obviously nothing always works. You may be one of the unlucky ones.

However, it is possible that the MAP is working. Sometimes, the husband loses a few pounds, ups the alpha, and his wife swoons. Those guys are lucky. But not all wives respond that way.

Some wives see their husbands becoming more attractive, and they respond negatively. This may be because they're not interested in their husbands. But, it may be because they see the writing on the wall. Some wives don't want their husbands to have options. They want their husbands held captive in their marriage.

So, it may be necessary for things to get worse before they get better. It may be necessary for you to make an ultimatum before she changes her behavior.

If you don't have it, Athol's book goes into more depth on the latter stages of his MAP for wives who prove to be difficult nuts to crack.

Good luck.


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## IsAnyoneHappy (Jun 13, 2012)

Thanks for the response.

As I said in the initial post, we've been here before, it nearly killed me then and I said I wouldn't go through it again. Yet here I am.

Not sure if I want it anymore. I can see it getting marginally better short term and then slipping again.

I just know I cant keep going through all this stress with her.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Maybe it's a good time to think about why you want to focus on MMSL or the MAP?

If you think of this as doing this for yourself.... going to the gym, focusing on yourself.... then it shouldn't kill you. It should make you stronger. 

Maybe it's not about doing this to get her to change... maybe it's just simply about working on yourself. 

If she's not into you, then you will be in a much better place in 6 months. With her or not. Give it some time. Don't put frequent sex as the goal, but just winning for yourself. 

You might feel a lot differently in a few more months.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

IsAnyoneHappy said:


> Apologies, not been able to log on for a while.
> 
> PHT, I've read quite a bit of Athol's stuff.
> I've upped Alpha and reduced Beta and vice versa.
> ...


Yup. While it sounds good in theory, when you dig down a bit you realize that it requires the woman have significant sexual desire and is willing to let it come to the front (does not have hangups or shame issues).

While it would be better for your wife to generate some drive on her own, it does not seem like that's going to happen here. I would suggest now is a good time to simply insist that she make a conscious effort to meet your need. But, approach is key.

I would not state that you do lots for her so she had better come correct. Rather, you should say you have been unhappy with your sex life for many years and continued to be a diligent partner and parent while making yourself more attractive to increase her attraction. She has either ignored or scorned your effort. Now, she needs to own her drive and role as your wife.

Second step is to ramp up the pressure. It is highly unlikely that she has gone through all those years without knowing you want more sex. In any event, with the prior conversation there is no doubt that she is falling short. At this point you will have to insist that she get some help to get up to speed.

If that does not work, then you will have to ramp it up further and let her know the marriage is in crisis. Make it clear that this is unacceptable even in the short term and failure to improve will mean you leaving is a strong possibility and, if that happens, you will fight for every bit of custody time and assets you can.

FWIW, I think that she has some serious sexual hangups. It's odd enough to refuse oral sex (even on her and pleasurable) and cut out sex after confirming pregnancy. But, her thinking that French kissing is naughty and being embarrassed is just weird. Sounds like some sex therapy might be needed as well.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

DTO said:


> Yup. While it sounds good in theory, when you dig down a bit you realize that it requires the woman have significant sexual desire and is willing to let it come to the front (does not have hangups or shame issues).
> 
> While it would be better for your wife to generate some drive on her own, it does not seem like that's going to happen here. I would suggest now is a good time to simply insist that she make a conscious effort to meet your need. But, approach is key.
> 
> ...


I'm in a very similar situation as the OP, and ramping up is NOT the right move. Ramping up causes her defenses to ramp up as well. She has to relax. She has to learn to trust you and be comfortable with you again.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I agree with Pht - Athol's approach is generally the best path to initially go down. It is also true that he and I separately concluded that AFTER you up your game, and the results are poor, you have a choice to make: acceptance, deception (affairs) or rapid destabilization. Pht and I often see eye to eye and we agree that women often respond poorly to being given an explicit quid pro quo for sex. That said, if plan A - upping your sex rank - fails, plan B should not be a year long exercise in gradually cutting back, that approach will create resentment, do it over 2-4 weeks and you will instead get your spouse to question if they are taking you for granted.






IsAnyoneHappy said:


> Apologies, not been able to log on for a while.
> 
> PHT, I've read quite a bit of Athol's stuff.
> I've upped Alpha and reduced Beta and vice versa.
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Drover said:


> I'm in a very similar situation as the OP, and ramping up is NOT the right move. Ramping up causes her defenses to ramp up as well. She has to relax. She has to learn to trust you and be comfortable with you again.


Again, that only works if there is some sort of drive waiting to come out. Some women are just really LD and some have shame issues around sex, as we have seen here. You can't take for granted that because there was some sex before, there will be some later; we have seen here that some women do it because they know it's an expectation, they want kids, etc.

If you don't have that, then easing off only gets you some vague and empty promises about her doing better, while she's secretly grateful she can keep her legs closed and is wondering how long she can get away with it. I know this full well from personal experience. 

Disclaimer: my stance comes from a personal value and boundary that I will not accept a low or no-sex marriage not caused by physical inability. I would rather be on my own and looking for someone who DOES want to be with me. If ultimately sex is not a deal-breaker and you would rather save the marriage, then obviously my advice is not for you.

Also, I don't want duty sex, and I get that fear is not the way to get what you want. Using myself as an example, if I have worked on me and there is no improvement, then my wife must:

1) accept the remaining problems as hers and not mine or ours
2) acknowedge she has a responsibility to me
3) acknowledge that her problems are causing her to fail in meeting her responsibilities
4) agree to get the intervention needed (either MC or IC)

The goal is not to subjugate her with fear. It is to shock her into action and push for change, so that she can get the needed help and approach sex free of emotional baggage and with a good understanding of marriage dynamics. I think we can all agree that, for some people, change only comes when it is easier than staying the same, right? The goal is to make change easier than the status quo.

Finally, I don't see any reason to let this drag on. Waiting a few months is appropriate. If she has not changed by then (and I am doing my part) then she either does not want to change or cannot without professional help. If she needs help, why not get it sooner and not later? If she rejects any of the premises (denies a problem, the legitimacy of my drive, the necessity of sex in marriage, and / or help), isn't it better to know now so I can take action? Is it not worse to spin my wheels for a long time, and maybe add resentment to the mix, then be in the exact same situation?

BTW, I too was in a situation with the same symptoms as the OP. I can tell you that continuing to back off and not ramp up has the potential to make you seen as weak, not tolerant or understanding.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Drover said:


> I'm in a very similar situation as the OP, and ramping up is NOT the right move. Ramping up causes her defenses to ramp up as well. She has to relax. She has to learn to trust you and be comfortable with you again.


What's wrong with her defenses going up? You are assuming that her response is to shut down. Who is to say that the response would not be "wow, he's really serious, I need to get it in gear before he checks out"?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Drover,
I agree that ramping up pressure is toxic. That is the opposite of lowering the temperature. Escalating threats come across as: I am angry enough that you don't love me, that I will threaten you with divorce. Ramping your sex rank yes - and then rapidly deprioritizing a spouse maximizes your chance of a good outcome.

That is true - if it is really true. Meaning - if you have been a jerk then there is some recovery cycle. Often I don't "trust" don't "feel safe" etc means: I don't want to have sex with you and am goof to expertly blameshift. 




Drover said:


> I'm in a very similar situation as the OP, and ramping up is NOT the right move. Ramping up causes her defenses to ramp up as well. She has to relax. She has to learn to trust you and be comfortable with you again.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

DTO said:


> What's wrong with her defenses going up? You are assuming that her response is to shut down. Who is to say that the response would not be "wow, he's really serious, I need to get it in gear before he checks out"?


Pressure is the anti-sex. Plus, ramping up pressure for sex just comes off as needy.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> That is true - if it is really true. Meaning - if you have been a jerk then there is some recovery cycle. Often I don't "trust" don't "feel safe" etc means: I don't want to have sex with you and am goof to expertly blameshift.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's not "trust" necessarily in terms of keeping your word, or that you'd hurt her. It's that she doesn't trust that you are what she thought you were, or wants you to be. Maybe it's because she lost confidence in you. Maybe it's because there's some need she has that you don't even know about that you're not taking care of...hell she may not even know what it is. I think that's the case a lot. There's some need she has that's not being filled, and she knows something is missing. When she married you, she thought you were the man that would fill all her needs. Now there's one not being filled. Therefore, it's your fault and she can't trust you. :scratchhead:


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Drover said:


> Pressure is the anti-sex. Plus, ramping up pressure for sex just comes off as needy.


I see what you are saying. A few thoughts on that:

1) I am not saying ramp up the pressure right away. The first step is to note the presence of a problem. Since she now knows there is an issue, anything she does falls into one of two categories. She either is going to fix the issue or she sees no downside to complacency. That latter outcome is complacency and exists because she does not value your satisfaction over her own convenience and / or does not think will you impose a consequence on her.

2) Whining about sex sounds needy. Making a stand that you have certain things which are important to you - that make the relationship worth continuing - is completely different. You are not saying you cannot get by without sex. You are saying that you don't see the point if she cannot be bothered.

3) You put it in terms of respect (which IMO is usually the root problem). The issue is not the lack of sex per se. The issue is she does not respect your views. Thus, you make it a general issue of "I am not asking for my way all or most of the time. But, I respect myself too much to be disregarded completely. If you can easily disregard me in favor of your own convenience, then this is not the relationship for me".

I don't mean to come off unduly harsh; it's just that I've learned from experience that a woman is either into a guy or not into a guy, and that will become apparent fairly early in the relationship. If she is interested in restoring a sexual relationship, she will agree readily to resolve the issues. If she will not at least try to restore a good sexual relationship, then she simply is not into you that much. It really is very simple.

And, one thing I've realized over the years is I have no desire to remain in a relationship where my partner is withholding sex (making that distinction clear to anyone who would say "what if she physically _can't_ have sex"). I am not interested in throwing blame back and forth, having a roommate, or whether the problem is with me specifically vs. the way she feels about sex in general. Either she is willing to work with me to improve the relationship, or it's "thank you and have a nice life".


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Drover said:


> It's not "trust" necessarily in terms of keeping your word, or that you'd hurt her. It's that she doesn't trust that you are what she thought you were, or wants you to be. Maybe it's because she lost confidence in you. Maybe it's because there's some need she has that you don't even know about that you're not taking care of...hell she may not even know what it is. I think that's the case a lot. There's some need she has that's not being filled, and she knows something is missing. When she married you, she thought you were the man that would fill all her needs. Now there's one not being filled. Therefore, it's your fault and she can't trust you. :scratchhead:


Maybe, although my response to that would be she should not withhold for some general sense of dissatisfaction (which is exactly what it is if she cannot even articulate it). She should, on her own initiative, decide to meet your need instead of just waiting for things to fall into place.

Another possibility (I experienced firsthand) when hearing "I don't trust you" or "I don't feel safe with you" is she has issues that her relationship with you are bringing to the front. My ex was a CSA survivor. I learned after a while that "I don't feel safe with you" meant she had unresolved trauma and avoiding sex was easier than dealing with her issues productively.


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## dream_weaver (Jun 5, 2012)

My new partner experienced the same as yourself & my ex was not forthcoming with affection unless he was after sex....I am a very touchy,feely person so my new partner has won the lottery with me & me him...

If things aren't dealt with we all know how it turns out....hopefully you & your wife can work on these issues so you can continue a long life together.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

DTO said:


> Maybe, although my response to that would be she should not withhold for some general sense of dissatisfaction (which is exactly what it is if she cannot even articulate it). She should, on her own initiative, decide to meet your need instead of just waiting for things to fall into place.


It's not consciously withholding out of resentment for the general sense of disatisfaction. It's that whatever disatisfaction she blames you for just makes her not want it. Sure, you could probably get "duty sex" but who wants that? You want her to want sex with you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Drover,
Be careful here. If she has some need (and she does) that you don't know about and therefore aren't meeting, that s NOT a trust issue.

If you let your wife use emotionally loaded words like that when they don't apply and she can't explain them you will end up celibate. 

If my W said anything about trust to me - we would have a painful conversation.



OTE=Drover;868218]It's not "trust" necessarily in terms of keeping your word, or that you'd hurt her. It's that she doesn't trust that you are what she thought you were, or wants you to be. Maybe it's because she lost confidence in you. Maybe it's because there's some need she has that you don't even know about that you're not taking care of...hell she may not even know what it is. I think that's the case a lot. There's some need she has that's not being filled, and she knows something is missing. When she married you, she thought you were the man that would fill all her needs. Now there's one not being filled. Therefore, it's your fault and she can't trust you. :scratchhead:[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Drover said:


> It's not consciously withholding out of resentment for the general sense of disatisfaction. It's that whatever disatisfaction she blames you for just makes her not want it. Sure, you could probably get "duty sex" but who wants that? You want her to want sex with you.


Well, of course guys don't want duty sex. We optimally want our women to lust / be horny for us. Most of us would accept a LD cheerfully meeting our need even if she's not horny herself. I think you misunderstood my point.

What I was say is I would expect my partner to proactively resolve whatever issues are impeding her sexuality and not let the physical aspect of the relationship be the "scapegoat" for whatever is running through her head.

Obviously, any serious physical or emotional issues need to be dealt with. But, say money is tight, your partner is having a tough time at work, or is just "off" somehow (anything from pissed about traffic to a midlife crisis). I would not want my spouse to just do me. Yet, being ignored for what is not my fault is immature and inappropriate. I would expect my spouse to recognize this and address the issue proactively rather than taking it out on me or the relationship.

Everyone has a bad day once in a while; I am not addressing that. I am referring to the person who lets every little bump in the road to impact his or her outlook, to the point where the partner notices the consistenty and finally says something.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

D,
Just to clarify: when I said "painful" conversation I didnt mean necesarily for her. Painful for one of us. It could indeed be about trust - if so she needs to explain what she means. The vague "it's just a feeling" doesn't fly on core stuff like that. 

You cannot resolve an issue you don't understand. 


UOTE=Drover;869988]It's not consciously withholding out of resentment for the general sense of disatisfaction. It's that whatever disatisfaction she blames you for just makes her not want it. Sure, you could probably get "duty sex" but who wants that? You want her to want sex with you.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

I feel for you, it's no way to live. I truly believe both H and W should be in a happy fulfilling marriage. 

That said, I am sort of in same boat. I've talked with my wife about my sex needs and intimacy needs and it goes good for a week then back to same old. 

As of right now I initiate 95% of time and never get shot down but I am sick of starting it everytime. I get no hugs, no I luv you's, one kiss a day. 

I did the MMSG map and am fit, still she tries and find flaws in me. Like if I don't work out in a day or two she tells me I am slacking but while getting to this point in my life regarding my physical body she has not really told me I look awesone, it's other people I know who have told me. 

I have decided to not initiate for a month, have scaled back big time my hugs, kisses...she noticed after two days and told me yesterday why am I so distant. I felt like saying, because this treatment is exactly how you treat me. But kept my ground and I am waiting to see what the next week brings. 

My marriage does have communication problems mostly from her lack of. I tried for months to be open and honest hoping it will bring her out of her shell but alas I still get nothing from her about what is on her mind. Seems like I do all the talking and she just sits there with no opinion. Keeping everything inside. 

I goto IC, which she still wonders why and makes fun of me in a way by asking when is my next appt with "shrink". 
I am having her go in Aug. with me though. 

If you ever read my thread I started, I am dealing with a wife that I accused of cheating. Which at the time there were only red flags. She got really defensive and accused me of cheating.

To be honest, i just think my wife is not capable of showing love to me or kids because of her upbringing. That is what MC will get into when we both go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

I keep reading threads like this over and over and over. Not to hijack your thread but I'd just love to know why men don't seem to think they have a Right to the type of life with their wives that they expected when they got married? 

To me, marriage is a partnership. You meet my needs for xyz and I'll meet your needs for abc. At least!! If both need and want and work towards xyz and abc together, all the better. 

But .... to me when I got married I KNEW (as any women should) that my JOB was to make sure my husband had all the sex that he wanted when he wanted it. within reason of course. major health issues, staying up all night with kids night after night, etc. etc. where everyone can agree skipping a night here and there won't kill anyone .... but really?? weeks and months without sex?? I can't even imagine. 

why do you guys put UP with it?? I am sorry. I am an independent and strong woman, no doormat. but dang. when my husband comes to bed hard or approaches me in the hallway on Sunday for a quickie I NEVER SAY NO. how do they (the wives) do it and not feel like they are just totally stiffing you and not holding up their end of the bargain? I bet they damn well do know, they are just waiting for you to CALL them on it. 

anyway I am sure this isn't really helpful. it just seems to me you men need to take the bull by the horns and call a spade a spade and tell them to get over it. they married you, this was part of the deal. belly up to the bar or I'll find someone who will. 

time for tough love.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

mina said:


> I keep reading threads like this over and over and over. Not to hijack your thread but I'd just love to know why men don't seem to think they have a Right to the type of life with their wives that they expected when they got married?
> 
> To me, marriage is a partnership. You meet my needs for xyz and I'll meet your needs for abc. At least!! If both need and want and work towards xyz and abc together, all the better.
> 
> ...




So true!!!

For me being a SAHD, I believe my wife sees herself as the breadwinner and as the dominant figure in our marriage. That said, I think she does not have the respect for me she once had. I told her that last week. She says she disagrees, but at the same time tries to control me and has to show she has power over me. 

I am working on stopping this everyday. It's a f'n energy draining battle though. My IC tells me it will take a long time to change this. But I don't think I have it in me to wait a long time. Marriage should be equal, and I doubt my wife is ready to give up the power and make this a equal partnership.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

jerry123 said:


> So true!!!
> 
> For me being a SAHD, I believe my wife sees herself as the breadwinner and as the dominant figure in our marriage. That said, I think she does not have the respect for me she once had. I told her that last week. She says she disagrees, but at the same time tries to control me and has to show she has power over me.
> 
> ...


Jerry,
I have a male friend that is a SAHD. He's wonderful with the kids, and he brags to everyone how lucky he feels he is that he can stay home for the next few years and raise his 3 kids.

I've seen him and his wife together at more than one BBQ or social outing. 

He carries on a superman innuendo with his wife. It's hard to explain, but it's totally a sexual thing. He grabs her waist and makes little comments about super dad is going to show wonder woman just how much stronger he is.. so hurry up and finish your drink... it's play time!! And a bunch of other little comments like going to the kiddie park after dark, and breaking the slide. My point is, he makes total fun of it, and he's the sexy super dad in the neighborhood !!He brags about being able to "dead lift" two kids at once, you get my drift.

It's his attitude about it. And I'll say something else... most of his male friends are jealous!! They work all week, and have "to do" lists on the weekends. His wife is very very happy.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

deejov said:


> Jerry,
> I have a male friend that is a SAHD. He's wonderful with the kids, and he brags to everyone how lucky he feels he is that he can stay home for the next few years and raise his 3 kids.
> 
> I've seen him and his wife together at more than one BBQ or social outing.
> ...



LOL, should try that. 

My point is, I've done it for a while and it sort of transformed our roles. So basically I let things go in the past like her screaming at me when she got home about the dumbest things. That has all changed, she knows better not to scream and yell but there is no show of her being intimate with me at all. 

Hell, up until this part February she was turning her head when kissing me so I could only kiss on cheek. 

Most people on here and the author of MMSG has told me wives will not respect a SAHD after a while. It's just in their genes. They have no control over it. 

It's the power trip and control nature of my wife that has gone too far. I have been putting my foot down for the last 3 months but getting little results. Don't know how much longer I can do this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

How about being PROUD of what you are doing? 
Regardless of what she thinks. 
I think a lot of women feel guilty about not raising the kids. 
Especially if you are doing a really good job at it. 

And there has to be something that you do that she cannot.
Fixing things in the house, cars, etc. Killing spiders??

Humor goes a long way.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

deejov said:


> How about being PROUD of what you are doing?
> Regardless of what she thinks.
> I think a lot of women feel guilty about not raising the kids.
> Especially if you are doing a really good job at it.


Yup. Or, she's flat out jealous of your relationship with the kids, and your status as a SAHD is a convenient scapegoat for the situation.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

DTO said:


> Yup. Or, she's flat out jealous of your relationship with the kids, and your status as a SAHD is a convenient scapegoat for the situation.


I don't think she is jealous...but I've read many books that say wives lose respect for SAHD since they are wired to bring up kids while husband works and brings home the money. 

In my case, for years I have had dinner ready, cleaned house, laundry, dishes so she can work then come home to eat then retreat up stairs and relax to watch tv. 

She has told me her job ends after work while mine does not end until kids are in bed. 

Her favorite quote (and even told MC this) is "I don't ask him to come to my work and do my job, why should he ask me to help him at his SAHD job. "

So that's my dilemma, MC told me in private that she has had the good life for years and to make her help with kids and cleaning is going to take a lot of work. Since she will have to work more I and would work less. To her that's not what she wants, she wants the easy life...

And I am trying really hard to change this control she thinks she has over the marriage. It's a battle every day. 

But the funny thing is, the more I demand her help in this marriage and make her understand it's supposed to be 50/50 she wants to fight it. She is fighting giving up control because without it she is vulnerable to me having control of myself and the marriage back. 

Trust me, it sucks to have to be here. I am sick of being in a marriage like this but at least I can say I am trying. Where as she is doing all she can to be the "cake eater" she is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jimbob82 (Jun 29, 2012)

I have so much sympathy for anyone here whose partner repeatedly rejects their sexual advances and treats them as nothing but an inconvenience. Is absolutely shatters your confidence and causes so much resentment to think that this person you've committed your life to just isn't into you in 'that' way...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 40isthenew20 (Jul 12, 2012)

It's a fine but, in the same sense, a broad line between sex and regular intimacy with your wife. I of course want sex from her, but I also appreciate the little things that spouses do for one another such as saying I love you (first), holding hands or just cuddling in bed. I have to initiate everything with my wife and she makes it seem as if it's a chore to respond. Gets kind of annoying. And I was a very active guy when single and was the last guy that my friends expected to get married. 

I could give a crap about holding hands back then with a girl I was out with, but I met my wife, fell in love and we have 2 great kids, a nice suburban house, doing well financially and have been married over 15 years now. 

Have my needs changed since I was in my 20s? Yes, and it's a nice feeling to be with someone you love so much. But to constantly be waiting for that response, etc sucks. She is LD to my very HD, and accuses me of always wanting more if she did hug me. But that only goes so far. If we are at a family function, it's not as if I'm going to clear the table and throw her on it in front of everyone. Even the infrequent times we do have sex, I have to basically twist her arm to lay close to me afterwards. So her theory is full of holes. 

At least by reading some of these posts, I know I'm not alone dealing with this. I am only in my second day of trying to not be so pushy and actually not grabbing her and or anything like that and it feels weird already. I'm hoping that some of that type of advice I have read on here will make her think a bit and perhaps reconsider.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Did you come here to vent or problem solve? Just curious.

Who is the primary breadwinner?


QUOTE=40isthenew20;933405]It's a fine but, in the same sense, a broad line between sex and regular intimacy with your wife. I of course want sex from her, but I also appreciate the little things that spouses do for one another such as saying I love you (first), holding hands or just cuddling in bed. I have to initiate everything with my wife and she makes it seem as if it's a chore to respond. Gets kind of annoying. And I was a very active guy when single and was the last guy that my friends expected to get married. 

I could give a crap about holding hands back then with a girl I was out with, but I met my wife, fell in love and we have 2 great kids, a nice suburban house, doing well financially and have been married over 15 years now. 

Have my needs changed since I was in my 20s? Yes, and it's a nice feeling to be with someone you love so much. But to constantly be waiting for that response, etc sucks. She is LD to my very HD, and accuses me of always wanting more if she did hug me. But that only goes so far. If we are at a family function, it's not as if I'm going to clear the table and throw her on it in front of everyone. Even the infrequent times we do have sex, I have to basically twist her arm to lay close to me afterwards. So her theory is full of holes. 

At least by reading some of these posts, I know I'm not alone dealing with this. I am only in my second day of trying to not be so pushy and actually not grabbing her and or anything like that and it feels weird already. I'm hoping that some of that type of advice I have read on here will make her think a bit and perhaps reconsider.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 40isthenew20 (Jul 12, 2012)

We both work and bring in approx equal amounts of salary, so thats a wash. And problem solving is the main agenda.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Create a plan with two parallel parts:
1. Become more desirable (this could be simple stuff like making an effort to be more upbeat and constructive/playful when with your W
2. Be less available: this does not mean sitting next to her on the couch and ignoring her: be home less and:
A. Say "ILY" less - in fact stop saying "I love you" to her first and stop complimenting HER on looks, dress, hotness. Instead limit compliments to what she acccomplishes or does extra for you - low key though "it was nice of you to make my fave dinner, thank you"
B. Stop touching her FIRST entirely - if she hugs/kisses - respond but just mirror her behavior don't escalate
C. Stop doing more acts of service than she does for you. If you take turns getting each other food and drink - keep the routine. But I it's mostly you going above and beyond on the "optional" stuff, cut back to parity with her level of effort

She will attempt to get you to revert back to doing way more than your share of initiating loving behaviors. Be playful when you decline.
Wife: can you get me a glass of water
H (smiling): I think I pulled a hamstring today on the treadmill - I am kind of thirsty also - do you mind getting me a drink while you're getting yours 

A normal human reaction to a loss of control - which is what she will feel, is a strong desire to regain control. This will manifest in:
- requests for acts of service (control of your actions)
- various comments and body language intended to dominate your emotional state. Could be appeals to your protector instincts:
She will create situations where she NEEDS you to fix/do something (try not to be so available via phone/text for these faux emergencies
She will try to make you anxious by being aggressive or cold
She will try to make you angry so you lose control of YOU - getting a spouse to "lose it" is a form of control


Standard circuit board responds to this by trying to get you to resume your prior behavior, by complaining you arent being nice.




40isthenew20 said:


> We both work and bring in approx equal amounts of salary, so thats a wash. And problem solving is the main agenda.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 40isthenew20 (Jul 12, 2012)

I like your suggestions and will certainly take you up on them. Two questions, though - how much time should I give this and what if she doesn't begin acting as if I'm being different? I want to stay the course and hope that it does have some sort of effect on her. Thx.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It will take her up to one month to respond. Your mission, should you choose to accept it: prevent her from controlling you




40isthenew20 said:


> I like your suggestions and will certainly take you up on them. Two questions, though - how much time should I give this and what if she doesn't begin acting as if I'm being different? I want to stay the course and hope that it does have some sort of effect on her. Thx.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 40isthenew20 (Jul 12, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> It will take her up to one month to respond. Your mission, should you choose to accept it: prevent her from controlling you
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OK. I'm going to give it a whirl. I am a strong-willed type and sometimes you need others to actually point stuff out to you like this. I never really thought about it from that angle, but she does hold 'the stick' when it comes to any intimacy or even casual acts of love.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If you are strong willed - then you will be able to prevent yourself that getting upset/angry or mean when she attempts to control your emotional state. 




40isthenew20 said:


> OK. I'm going to give it a whirl. I am a strong-willed type and sometimes you need others to actually point stuff out to you like this. I never really thought about it from that angle, but she does hold 'the stick' when it comes to any intimacy or even casual acts of love.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

You married her knowing this is how she was from the beginning. But you know that. 

Tell her how you feel. Either she meets you halfway or she won't. If she won't, then decide whether you want to stay married to her.


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## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

My situation is pretty much the same as yours but wasn't quite as extreme. It ruined our marriage though. My stbx wasn't like that when we married but became just like your wife after we had kids. I wish you all the luck in the world.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

mina said:


> I keep reading threads like this over and over and over. Not to hijack your thread but I'd just love to know why men don't seem to think they have a Right to the type of life with their wives that they expected when they got married?
> 
> To me, marriage is a partnership. You meet my needs for xyz and I'll meet your needs for abc. At least!! If both need and want and work towards xyz and abc together, all the better.
> 
> ...


I think the Op said he did something like that and it was good for the short term. It keeps going back to the way it was.

My wife is the same. My wife never ever ever thinks about sex. It is not part of her thought process. When I talk about it or about how I "feel" I feel like a little weenie. I am a man, I should not let "feelings" get in the way. I feel like a woman sometimes when I want to talk about my feelings.

I work out also like the OP and get some attention from other women now. I told my wife before that if she wasn't interested in love/sex/ and wasn't attracted to me, just let me go so I can find love. Then she cries and cries and for a while things are better and just like the OP it goes back to tha way it was.

Uggh


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## 40isthenew20 (Jul 12, 2012)

I agree with the above post about feeling odd and not like a man by having to actually bring a subject like this up. Bu it doesn't make me less of a man or a good husband because I feel that my wife should be willing and wanting to do these small things. And it pisses me off that it even would be a possibility that something such as not showing affection or even wanting sex once in a while would jeopardize the future of our marriage. I'm not ready to leave my house, two kids and even her for that matter. But I also do not want things to continue the way they are. I hd a great time when I was single and have a different mindset now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

40,
I think this is a great point and you SHOULD have that level of commitment to the marriage. The reason I suggest the two steps that I do is:
- Making the effort to be MORE attractive is good for you, good for your W and also your marriage
- Doing LESS is likely the one behavior you can choose to cause her to appreciate you more

I know you have never considered this - but for a moment I want you to. Put yourself in your W's shoes. Remember all the moments where she has NOT touched you, been warm to you, or maybe even acted neutral or uncomfortable when you hugged/kissed/touched/complimented her. 

Recall how anxious you felt that she was not responding warmly to you. 

Now switch bodies and put yourself in her place. Take the SAME anxiety except reverse the reason. In those moments she didn't want to be touched/kissed/hugged/complimented. For whatever reason she wanted some level of emotional space. And she likely perceived your actions - not as a GIVE: 
- "I love you" 
But rather as a request:
- "Do YOU love ME?" 

It is a very odd and unfair part of being human - but it is much harder to actually FEEL love for someone in that situation. 

And this part is important - the more you TALK about this stuff - the WORSE you make the situation. You two likely understand each other just fine in this one area. She knows you want more touch/sex. She knows that. She isn't being sadistic or cruel. Just like you are not being cruel when you touch her more than she wants you to. 

Her behavior: Which is to minimize contact, is an attempt to tell you that she feels crowded. It may be the most common reaction to feeling crowded because the alternative is to say something to you that will seem hostile: "Please touch me less, compliment me less, pressure me to reciprocate less." 

But the reason this is so HARD to execute is: Even though all this crowding makes it difficult for her to FEEL love for you, she still realizes you are a good guy, is glad you are around and has now become accustomed to feeling VERY secure and in very much in control of what happens in the marriage and what you do. And when you back off, she will initially experience some level of: anxiety and irritation about the reduction in the level of STABILITY of her life. 

So the normal trajectory that occurs is actually a bad yo-yo that will leave both of you feeling bad, but YOU will feel much worse. 

You execute the more attractive, less available move. 
She attempts to reel you back in to a safe/stable but sexually/physically lifeless dynamic. You resist briefly but then give in to what she SEEMS to want. Nothing changes. 

Common patterns:
W: You seem distant
H: Begins talking about the relationship. He uses the GOLD standard of today's MC language: 
- (in a serious tone) When you don't touch me/don't want sex - I FEEL - ..... So I am pulling back (translation: I am angry you don't love me enough)
W: (thinking GREAT - he is trying to get more touch - sex - love from me - UGH!!! - this is so predictable and boring)

Much harder to do this:
W: You seem distant
H: (making eye contact and smiling) "What?"
W: (irritated) Lately you seem different
H: (still smiling) "I am fine" (translation: I am happy and feel good about my new priorities - AND - I don't feel the need to justify them to anyone - nor do I have the need to anxiously talk about our marriage)
W: (WTF - he isn't talking) "Whatever" (walking away - hoping he will follow)
H: (smiling - thinking - that went well) goes on about his day
Later that day when they are next back together:
W: (radiating a cool/cold vibe - not talking much)
H: (happy/upbeat body language - not saying anything either)
W: "Great - so now you're not talking to me"
H: (tilting his head to reflect confusion) "What?" 
W: "We need x,y,z from the store" 
H: (thinking: no - YOU need me to say ILY in one of your love languages - in this case by dropping whatever I had planned and performing a totally discretionary act of service - time for a bit of humor - in a friendly - bantering tone): 
"Does the WE describe who HAS the NEED? or instead 
Define who is to ADDRESS the NEED"
W: (completely at a loss at this point - irritated again) "What the hell are you talking about?"
H: "I am going to the gym to workout - do you NEED me to get YOU something while I am out" 

You have now reached the turning point of the entire interaction. There is no WE - if she wants something she needs to say "I NEED x,y,z from YOU". This is a way to ensure that she acknowledges that your willingness to do stuff for her - has value and is worthy of respect. WE - isn't about her need for you to do stuff for her. It is about you doing stuff for both of you. Do NOT do optional/discretionary act of service (love language) stuff for WE. If she wants something done - she asks you to do it for HER. AND respect requires courtesy/kindness. 

W: (in an annoyed tone) "I just said WE need x,y,z"
H: (frowning now) "Don't like your tone of voice - maybe it will be better by the time I return from the gym" (walking out to go get changed)

ALTERNATE OUTCOME
W: (in an annoyed tone) FINE, I NEED x,y,z 
H: (softly) "Would you be ok if I asked YOU to do something in that tone" 
W: "If you don't want to do it - just SAY SO"
H: "I don't" (not speaking at all)
W: Not speaking at all 
H: after a long silence (smiling again) "off to the gym"

Like I said - this is not easy to execute. It is very normal to let yourself get angry - but doing so ensures FAILURE. 





40isthenew20 said:


> I agree with the above post about feeling odd and not like a man by having to actually bring a subject like this up. Bu it doesn't make me less of a man or a good husband because I feel that my wife should be willing and wanting to do these small things. And it pisses me off that it even would be a possibility that something such as not showing affection or even wanting sex once in a while would jeopardize the future of our marriage. I'm not ready to leave my house, two kids and even her for that matter. But I also do not want things to continue the way they are. I hd a great time when I was single and have a different mindset now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

I like what MEM stated in post #49. That was the 180 I tried over a year ago. I stopped saying ILY. It's been a year and a half or so since we exchanged the ILU's.

She is the main one who initiates sex now. Sometimes she will even pat my but in the kitchen. Not very often though.

Hugs????? doesn't happen very often. Our 8 year old daughter has to tell us to hug. Then it's a playful 3 way hug.

The sex part is still better than what it was 2 years ago. That is just a small part of it. I want the hugs, affection, the love touches, kissing...Still, I don't have that from her and that is what I crave even more than sex.


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