# Husband key to LTR success?



## jld

I was not sure whether to put this here or in the general discussion. I hope this is okay.

I am convinced our marriage has had the success it has had because of dh's love and commitment to me. I have been emotional and wavering at times, but he is always steady. He is the rock our marriage is built on.

I just don't think I could carry a marriage on my own. I can be supportive, but I don't think this is my project, I guess. He wanted me, and he had very clear ideas about kids and how they would be brought up, and how our finances would be, and I basically agreed to the rules of the contract, so to speak. 

It has occurred to me recently that I probably could have negotiated, instead of just accepting his terms, lol. At any rate, it seems to have worked out for us, even if it sounds kind of old-fashioned.

Are there other women here who have had a similar experience/had similar feelings? Surely I am not the only one.


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## jld

Lol . . . Maybe I am the only one.

Am I not communicating well? I guess I am wondering if there are other women who feel their husbands carry the marriage. It is not that the wives don't have their responsibilities, too, but that the husband really takes responsibility for the marriage, like meeting the wife's emotional and financial needs, as well as providing an overall vision for the family.

Okay, maybe it was a dumb idea to ask about this, lol. I just thought maybe there were some other families like ours. Lol!


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## norajane

I'm not especially clear on what you're trying to say, exactly.

Are you asking if others' marriage success is based on one partner being primarily responsible for the health of the marriage while the other doesn't pay much attention and just goes along for the ride?

Are you asking if others find success when the husband (or wife) is making all the decisions and the spouse just goes along with what they have decided without input?

Are you saying that your husband is more invested in the marriage than you and you're more checked out but that is what has made it possible for your marriage to work?


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## jld

You are a clear communicator, norajane!

No to all 3 questions! 

We are happily married, and I am very grateful to dh for his love and commitment to me. I also love him and am committed to him.

But I definitely do not think this is an equal marriage. 

For example, if dh cheated on me, I might give him a second chance, or I might just divorce him. I doubt he would ever divorce me for any reason. His commitment and love for me is just rock solid. And I am not going to test that!

And financially there is just no equality at all here in terms of earning potential, or reality.

Okay, I did not mean for this to be any kind of debate or justification of anyone's relationship. Speaking for myself, our marriage is pretty traditional and we are happy with it. But usually when I talk with other women about their marriages, no one's husband had the kind of straightforward, right off the bat directives about how the relationship would be that my dh had. Or at least no one has told me that, and all have been pretty surprised when I told them I was made aware of what the expectations were from the beginning of the relationship. 

And the thing is, it has worked out well for us. I don't think that on my own I would have had the same goals for us dh set out, but now I am really glad for his leadership.

I guess when you spend time on a board like this, you start to reflect on your own marriage, and why it has worked or hasn't, and in what areas. I think that our marriage has worked because of dh's love and commitment, and I am wondering if that is a key to happy marriages in general. 

And I guess I am wondering if other women have had a similar experience to mine.

Okay, is that clearer?


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## jld

Just to be totally clear: I did not mean to put anyone on the defensive. Everybody is unique, and each marriage is unique, as it should be.

I really was just musing about what might be involved in a happy LTR, based on what I have lived. It may not have any bearing at all to what other people have found to be helpful. 

Feel free to totally ignore this thread, lol!


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## Keenwa

jld said:


> You are a clear communicator, norajane!
> 
> No to all 3 questions!
> 
> We are happily married, and I am very grateful to dh for his love and commitment to me. I also love him and am committed to him.
> 
> But I definitely do not think this is an equal marriage.
> 
> For example, if dh cheated on me, I might give him a second chance, or I might just divorce him. I doubt he would ever divorce me for any reason. His commitment and love for me is just rock solid. And I am not going to test that!
> 
> And financially there is just no equality at all here in terms of earning potential, or reality.
> 
> Okay, I did not mean for this to be any kind of debate or justification of anyone's relationship. Speaking for myself, our marriage is pretty traditional and we are happy with it. But usually when I talk with other women about their marriages, no one's husband had the kind of straightforward, right off the bat directives about how the relationship would be that my dh had. Or at least no one has told me that, and all have been pretty surprised when I told them I was made aware of what the expectations were from the beginning of the relationship.
> 
> And the thing is, it has worked out well for us. I don't think that on my own I would have had the same goals for us dh set out, but now I am really glad for his leadership.
> 
> I guess when you spend time on a board like this, you start to reflect on your own marriage, and why it has worked or hasn't, and in what areas. I think that our marriage has worked because of dh's love and commitment, and I am wondering if that is a key to happy marriages in general.
> 
> And I guess I am wondering if other women have had a similar experience to mine.
> 
> Okay, is that clearer?


Hey JLD - It is interesting you would be on a board like this if you truly find everything is great in your marriage. That said, if you are just perusing and interested, I'd say it doesn't matter one whit what other people think. If you can truly feel happy in your relationship, then that is all that matters. What seems to happen to many of us, is that we marry for a certain reason, so for example your example of him making all the choices for the marriage. Years go by and you realize that this is not what you want anymore, that you are feeling taken advantage of an not equal and now this is important to you. Perhaps you change, or grow or develop or just grow apart in a way. So then you end up here trying to re-define your marriage. 

However, for some people what you described is perfectly fine. If you are both happy clams then there is nothing really to discuss and comparing yourself to other women or other marriages is counter-productive. 

If though you are here because you are questioning if you are happy, then that is a different story! 

I know many marriages, actually most marriages to me, seem quite dysfunctional, but that is from my perspective. It's really no one who can decide if you are happy but you. I'm sure there are many other women and men like you in similar relationships!


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## jld

I am sorry if I hit a sore spot, Keenwa. 

I should probably have posted my question, basically, "Is a committed husband the key to a happy marriage?", on a sociology forum somewhere. It is just something I have wondered about for a while, and since marriage is the subject around here, I thought it might be an enlightening discussion.

I see now that asking this kind of question on a board where, yes, a lot of people are coming with problems, could be seen as insensitive. Sorry about that.


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## anotherguy

jld said:


> ...I can be supportive, but I don't think this is my project, I guess...


weeeeelllll..

If you both are happy, more power to you. I guess.

Sounds like an excrucating way to get dragged through life though. If you have any goals, they dont matter? Do you even care? 

One thing I firmly believe - people that are not challenging themselves, bettering themselves, have goals and work at them, are intellectually, emotionally, physically challenged and stimulated... actively participate in partnerships and friendhips and in the marriage... will soon be asking themelves 'what am I doing with my life'. 'Is this IT'?

But -philosophical armchair cropola aside...

'I probably could have negotiated'..

'directives...'

'I was made aware of what the expectations were...'

What the He11 does *that* even mean? 'was made aware of'. You mean told?

(sigh). Maybe I'm reading waaaaay too much into the words you write - but this all sounds pretty dysfunctional, controlling and repressive. Then again - I know nothing about either of you.

'I dont think this is my project'.

Yikes.


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## MEM2020

JLD,
Let me get this straight.

You married a guy who totally completely loves and is committed to you. He had a clear plan/vision of how your marriage would work. And he led by example. For instance he believes that a stable family is built on a foundation of financial security:
- He defined and was determined that everyone (himself included) stick to a budget that enabled you to build savings
- He also worked hard to provide a nice income to enable you to live in a safe neighborhood and provide the children a good education
- His career focus was not driven by a focus on expensive male 'toys'. It was primarily driven by his belief that the children would do better if he enabled mom to spend more of her time and energy as their primary caretaker
- He had a firm and consistent parenting template that he believed would eventually produce productive, emotionally stable children. He didn't come home and yell at you because he had a bad day. He did however shape your parenting style to align with his. 

And the results are good. And he brought out the best in you and the kids. And all of you respect him even if at times you thought he set the bar a little higher than he should have.

I bet if you asked this the right way, he would say that his love for you and then the kids provided the emotional energy that fueled everything he did. 





jld said:


> You are a clear communicator, norajane!
> 
> No to all 3 questions!
> 
> We are happily married, and I am very grateful to dh for his love and commitment to me. I also love him and am committed to him.
> 
> But I definitely do not think this is an equal marriage.
> 
> For example, if dh cheated on me, I might give him a second chance, or I might just divorce him. I doubt he would ever divorce me for any reason. His commitment and love for me is just rock solid. And I am not going to test that!
> 
> And financially there is just no equality at all here in terms of earning potential, or reality.
> 
> Okay, I did not mean for this to be any kind of debate or justification of anyone's relationship. Speaking for myself, our marriage is pretty traditional and we are happy with it. But usually when I talk with other women about their marriages, no one's husband had the kind of straightforward, right off the bat directives about how the relationship would be that my dh had. Or at least no one has told me that, and all have been pretty surprised when I told them I was made aware of what the expectations were from the beginning of the relationship.
> 
> And the thing is, it has worked out well for us. I don't think that on my own I would have had the same goals for us dh set out, but now I am really glad for his leadership.
> 
> I guess when you spend time on a board like this, you start to reflect on your own marriage, and why it has worked or hasn't, and in what areas. I think that our marriage has worked because of dh's love and commitment, and I am wondering if that is a key to happy marriages in general.
> 
> And I guess I am wondering if other women have had a similar experience to mine.
> 
> Okay, is that clearer?


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## DvlsAdvc8

JLD, I'm a guy, but I've known plenty of women who prefer a more submissive role and more leadership from their spouse. These women tend to pick a guy as much for his life approach/plans/handling, as they do for his personality.

Its no one's place to judge someone else's preferences. Most want balance, but there are plenty of women that prefer to just trust their husbands plans and not worry with things. You're not alone.


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## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> I should probably have posted my question, basically, *"Is a committed husband the key to a happy marriage?"*, on a sociology forum somewhere. It is just something I have wondered about for a while, and since marriage is the subject around here, I thought it might be an enlightening discussion.


Feel free to ask ANY question...no need to apologize.....I would answer this question >> *"Is a committed husband the key to a happy marriage?"*... this is only half of the equation... 

If both parties are committed, agree with the foundation laid and it brings you both happiness...then it's all good...:smthumbup: 

Before I came here, I never heard of the term "Inter-dependence" related to relationships...

I offer this article which speaks about what makes for a healthy INTERdependent marriage....it speaks about "growing together"... 







Increasing Intimacy in Marriage











> *Forms of Intimacy*
> 
> Intimacy can have different meanings for men and women, however intimacy experts Stahmann, Young, and Grover note that “all human beings have the basic need to be intimate and close with another person.” Women are often portrayed as having the desire for emotional intimacy while men are portrayed as only having a desire for sexual intimacy. However, intimacy can take many forms, including the following:
> 
> Emotional intimacy is the closeness created through sharing feelings. Because girls are encouraged to recognize and express their emotions from an early age, women generally understand emotions better than men. Unfortunately, society tends to discourage men from feeling or showing emotion. Men who didn’t learn how to be emotionally intimate while growing up can learn as adults. If they do, their marriages will be stronger and healthier.
> 
> The first step to emotional awareness is to pay attention to your feelings, identify them, and think of possible reasons for them. Work on noticing the differences between strong emotions such as terror and fury and the differences between more subtle emotions such as anxiety, insecurity, and irritation.
> 
> Emotional intimacy can occur once people know what they are feeling, convey those feelings to each other, and express concern and understanding of their feelings to each other.
> 
> Mental or intellectual intimacy involves a mutual understanding about all the important issues in your marriage. Setting goals together is one way to further intellectual intimacy. For example, you might set goals to improve your intimacy, to save a certain amount of money, or to go for daily walks together.
> 
> Spiritual intimacy involves sharing religious beliefs and observing religious practices together, such as praying and attending church. As you share spiritual experiences, you will become united in your attitudes and goals. Ed Wheat suggests that couples become active in a church where they can learn, grow, and serve God along with others.
> 
> Recreational intimacy is enjoying activities together, like running, golfing, or reading. Things as simple as popping popcorn and watching a movie or preparing a meal together can be good ways to build recreational intimacy.
> 
> Financial or monetary intimacy comes with discussing and sharing your finances. If you have separate accounts and separate incomes, you probably lack financial intimacy in your relationship
> 
> Sexual intimacy is one of the most important dimensions of healthy marital intimacy. Healthy sexual intimacy includes sexual frequency that both partners are satisfied with, sexual activities both partners enjoy, and an open dialogue about sex. David and Amy Olson found that a major strength for happily married couples is the quality of the sexual relationship. In their research, the most common sexual concern is differing levels of interest in sex.
> 
> Happier couples tend to agree in their definition of sexual satisfaction and have fewer worries about their sex lives than unhappy couples. More than half of all married couples, they note, have trouble discussing sexual issues.





> *Characteristics of Intimacy*
> 
> Relationships with healthy intimacy have several factors in common, including the following:
> 
> Mutual trust builds a sense of security for both spouses. You can show it be having no desire to injure your spouse in any way. Though you might unintentionally cause hurt, you won’t hurt one another on purpose.
> 
> Tenderness includes gentle expressions of caring. Through touch you can express your love to your partner. This affectionate contact is absolutely essential in building the emotion of love.
> 
> Acceptance is unconditional approval in a relationship. No one is perfect, but acceptance means not holding weaknesses against one other. If you find yourself frequently pointing out your spouse’s faults, work on focusing instead on the qualities you fell in love with.
> 
> Open communication is the ability to discuss anything with your spouse. It includes sincere expression of thoughts and feelings as well as careful listening. Signs of poor communication include feeling reluctant to tell your spouse about the events of your day or being unwilling to listen when your spouse is explaining how he or she feels.
> 
> Caring is genuine concern for your spouse’s well-being. If you do things you know hurt your spouse, you cannot have healthy intimacy. You can develop a more caring heart and mind by learning to think of your spouse’s feelings before your own. Always ask yourself before acting or speaking, “If I do this or say this, will I hurt my spouse?”
> 
> Apologies are the remedy for mistakes that spouses inevitably make. Recognizing mistakes, taking responsibility for them, expressing remorse for any hurt caused, and making a commitment to change the hurtful behavior are all essential to mending the relationship after a mistake. For spouses who have created a chasm of hurts that separate them, offering a sincere and humble apology is the first step in building a bridge over that chasm. Even if you believe that your partner made the mistake, you can begin the healing by finding something you did that calls for an apology.
> 
> Forgiveness is the process of letting go of anger, desire for revenge, and obsessive thinking about times your spouse has hurt you. It includes giving your spouse permission to have weaknesses, make mistakes, and change. Seeing the goodness and strengths of your spouse along with the weaknesses can open up emotional space for good will to build toward your spouse. Forgiveness does not automatically create trust or reconciliation, nor does it mean you approve of bad behavior. But it is an important early step toward rebuilding a fractured relationship.
> 
> Appropriate boundaries are the limits you place on a relationship. The limits can be created individually or as a couple. These limits include saying “no” when your spouse asks you to do something that goes against your values or is more than you can handle. Setting firm, clear boundaries for yourself and respecting the boundaries of your partner create feelings of safety and trust.
> 
> If your relationship is in trouble, one or both of you might decide to write a “Bill of Rights” that clearly defines the conditions necessary for staying in the relationship. For example, one woman told her husband that she would stay in the marriage only if there was (1) mutual respect, (2) no drinking/drugs, (3) no hitting or emotional abuse, (4) no name-calling, and (5) no cheating/affairs.


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## jld

Okay, I think there is a lot of overthinking going on here. 

Yes, we are happy. No, I am not oppressed. Not in any way. Lol.

I very accidentally stumbled, and I do mean stumbled, onto another marriage board a few months ago when I was looking for something completely unrelated. I did not realize there were so many problems in marriages. Yes, I guess I am blind and deaf. But I was surprised and actually learned a lot from that site. And this site was mentioned there and I came here and have continued to learn here.

I posted a question. There is no hidden agenda. Please read my other posts; do I seem insincere? Do I seem unkind? I certainly hope not. My heart breaks for the pain people are going through. If I had married someone else, my life could have been very, very different. I know that and I am really, really grateful to dh. I think of some of the things I have read and I just think, there but for the grace of God go I. Some of these things could happen to any of us, and so I ask myself, why did it not happen to me? And then I think, gee, I wonder if it is because of dh? Because he has always provided so much stability and security and love and reassurance to me? And then I think well, if he has done so much for me, is it the husband that is really the key to a successful marriage? And then I think, gee, maybe other women have experienced this, too, and have come to the same conclusion. That is all.


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## Coffee Amore

There's no harm in asking questions. If we all thought alike this board wouldn't be so lively.

What I have a hard time wrapping my brain around is why you think your husband is the key to your marital success. He hasn't contributed any more than you have. At least that's my perception.

If he worked outside the home, you still have to take care of the home and the children, so that his attention could be at the workplace. So you contributed to the marriage.

If he brought the income, you still had to find ways to live with the budget your family has. So you contributed to the marriage.

He should be grateful you were there to raise the family, keep a good home, buy wisely with the money earned.

Haven't you provided stablity and reassurance to him too? I'm not being sarcastic. Just curious. It doesn't sound like your marriage is all one-way as it seemed in your first few posts.

Do you see my point? Unless you're sitting on the couch eating bonbons all day, and it doesn't sound like you are, you contributed to the marriage just as he did, so the praise doesn't have to go just to him. You both made it work. You're both responsible for the success of your marriage.


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## norajane

jld said:


> My heart breaks for the pain people are going through. If I had married someone else, my life could have been very, very different. I know that and I am really, really grateful to dh. I think of some of the things I have read and I just think, there but for the grace of God go I. Some of these things could happen to any of us, and so I ask myself, why did it not happen to me? And then I think, gee, I wonder if it is because of dh? Because he has always provided so much stability and security and love and reassurance to me? *And then I think well, if he has done so much for me, is it the husband that is really the key to a successful marriage? * And then I think, gee, maybe other women have experienced this, too, and have come to the same conclusion. That is all.


Might you be selling yourself short here? You have contributed to the health of your marriage as well. Do you believe that you, too, and what you have done for your H over the years has also impacted your marriage?

As an example, you mention finances specifically...just because he has provided doesn't mean that your contributions at home aren't as valuable and necessary. What you have done is what has enabled him to focus on providing for the family.


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## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> Okay, I think there is a lot of overthinking going on here.
> 
> *Yes, we are happy. No, I am not oppressed. Not in any way.* Lol.
> 
> I very accidentally stumbled, and I do mean stumbled, onto another marriage board a few months ago when I was looking for something completely unrelated. I did not realize there were so many problems in marriages.


Sounds good, sounds like MEM's post explained it pretty well then... I hope you stick around...posting here can be very addicting though!


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## jld

I hope it is okay if I come back to this later. I have to take my kids to some things.

I did not mean to cause a fuss. It really was just a question I have wondered about for a while. I certainly did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

Okay, thanks.


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## skype

A marriage is a relationship, so I don't think that either the husband or the wife alone is the key to long-term marital success. Jld, you obviously picked someone who is well-suited to you, and that is the key to a successful marriage. Choose a compatible person and meet each other's needs, that is the formula for a long-term marriage.


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## over20

jld said:


> Okay, I think there is a lot of overthinking going on here.
> 
> Yes, we are happy. No, I am not oppressed. Not in any way. Lol.
> 
> I very accidentally stumbled, and I do mean stumbled, onto another marriage board a few months ago when I was looking for something completely unrelated. I did not realize there were so many problems in marriages. Yes, I guess I am blind and deaf. But I was surprised and actually learned a lot from that site. And this site was mentioned there and I came here and have continued to learn here.
> 
> I posted a question. There is no hidden agenda. Please read my other posts; do I seem insincere? Do I seem unkind? I certainly hope not. My heart breaks for the pain people are going through. If I had married someone else, my life could have been very, very different. I know that and I am really, really grateful to dh. I think of some of the things I have read and I just think, there but for the grace of God go I. Some of these things could happen to any of us, and so I ask myself, why did it not happen to me? And then I think, gee, I wonder if it is because of dh? Because he has always provided so much stability and security and love and reassurance to me? And then I think well, if he has done so much for me, is it the husband that is really the key to a successful marriage? And then I think, gee, maybe other women have experienced this, too, and have come to the same conclusion. That is all.


My marriage is very traditional and we are both happy. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like your husband is a loving leader. As he leads and supports the family he has created a healthy marriage and unit. As he has met your needs in turn you have created a happy hearth/home. It sounds like a win-win. I am a Christian, sounds like you might be also? Scripture does teach loving leadership in the New Testament. The husband leads the home as Christ leads the church. Even giving his life for the church. By being a leader in the home, sounds like your husband has put his wife and children first by leading by love and example. A very noble trait.

My husband is a very selfless person too. He has always told me that when he sees my smile and laugh it warms his heart because he knows I am happy. He always wants me to be happy, (not so much the teenagers cause they are grumpy :rofl Maybe what has happened in your marriage is that you have met his needs so he in turn wants to strive to meet yours. Maybe you didn't even know that you have touched him so. 

Sounds like you are very blessed, enjoy it and maybe mentor to another couple who is struggling!

Btw my husband is very selfless but very masculine. He is alpha all the way which makes it easy for me to respect him and lift him up in our home. I know there are probably 1000's of women that would want him. He's the strong "Women and children first" type.


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## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> Let me get this straight.
> 
> You married a guy who totally completely loves and is committed to you. He had a clear plan/vision of how your marriage would work. And he led by example. For instance he believes that a stable family is built on a foundation of financial security:
> - He defined and was determined that everyone (himself included) stick to a budget that enabled you to build savings
> - He also worked hard to provide a nice income to enable you to live in a safe neighborhood and provide the children a good education
> - His career focus was not driven by a focus on expensive male 'toys'. It was primarily driven by his belief that the children would do better if he enabled mom to spend more of her time and energy as their primary caretaker
> - He had a firm and consistent parenting template that he believed would eventually produce productive, emotionally stable children. He didn't come home and yell at you because he had a bad day. He did however shape your parenting style to align with his.
> 
> And the results are good. And he brought out the best in you and the kids. And all of you respect him even if at times you thought he set the bar a little higher than he should have.
> 
> I bet if you asked this the right way, he would say that his love for you and then the kids provided the emotional energy that fueled everything he did.


You know my dh's type well, MEM. He read your post and said he is not as organized as all that, but agreed that the essence is there.

He is definitely not into male toys, lol. That really does seem to be a money drain for a lot of families. I could not respect a man who put his pleasures before his family's needs. And there seem to be so many men who do that.

That part about all of us respecting him is so true. Everybody in this family looks up to dh. 

Funny story: Dd18 is a freshman in college, studying chem engineering. Dh is a mech engineer. Dd told me a few weeks ago that she is anxious to progress in her engineering studies, because she wants to see "if Dad is really as smart as we all think he is." Dh laughed out loud when he heard that.

Question for you: Do you think that a committed husband is the key to a successful marriage? Why or why not?


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## jld

anotherguy said:


> weeeeelllll..
> 
> If you both are happy, more power to you. I guess.
> 
> Sounds like an excrucating way to get dragged through life though. If you have any goals, they dont matter? Do you even care?
> 
> One thing I firmly believe - people that are not challenging themselves, bettering themselves, have goals and work at them, are intellectually, emotionally, physically challenged and stimulated... actively participate in partnerships and friendhips and in the marriage... will soon be asking themelves 'what am I doing with my life'. 'Is this IT'?
> 
> But -philosophical armchair cropola aside...
> 
> 'I probably could have negotiated'..
> 
> 'directives...'
> 
> 'I was made aware of what the expectations were...'
> 
> What the He11 does *that* even mean? 'was made aware of'. You mean told?
> 
> (sigh). Maybe I'm reading waaaaay too much into the words you write - but this all sounds pretty dysfunctional, controlling and repressive. Then again - I know nothing about either of you.
> 
> 'I dont think this is my project'.
> 
> Yikes.


I am not being dragged through my marriage. My life is not excruciating, except for the part about my son's cancer.

Yes, I do need some goals. That whole paragraph was very good. Thank you.


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## jld

Coffee Amore said:


> Interesting perspective. If you're happy with it then why not? I just know it's not a dynamic that would work in my marriage.
> 
> He doesn't lead the family. I don't think he'd want to. We both give and take without one of being the designated leader in the relationship. I would say both of us are committed to the marriage. He's not more committed than I am. All the ingredients people say a good marriage needs - undivided time with each other, good communication, respect, good personal boundaries with the opposite sex - those can all be improved upon, but if you don't have the basic ingredients of two people who are both committed to the marriage, all the monthly date nights and communication won't help.
> 
> I try to meet his most important emotional needs and he meets mine. I wouldn't want him to meet only my needs. It sounds very one-way if he only met mine. I prefer an egalitarian marriage..obviously..
> 
> I'm pretty sure if I cheated, he would divorce me and I respect that he has such a hardline boundary about the issue. I can't articulate it well, but I'll try. Knowing he is strong enough to walk away from me for such egregious conduct gives me a lot of respect for him because it shows he has a lot of self-respect for himself.


The thing is, CA, that a traditional marriage just does not seem acceptable in today's world. It is not that it does not work, at least for some, but it just does not seem in step with today's society. Everything is equal, equal. I know my marriage is not equal. As soon as you deal with financial inequality (difference in earning capacity), any equality is thrown out the window.

I do not think my dh believes in divorce, period. He is just very compassionate. At the same time, we have never faced divorceable conditions, either. I can totally believe you do not really know what you would do until you are actually in the situation.


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## jld

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> JLD, I'm a guy, but I've known plenty of women who prefer a more submissive role and more leadership from their spouse. These women tend to pick a guy as much for his life approach/plans/handling, as they do for his personality.
> 
> Its no one's place to judge someone else's preferences. Most want balance, but there are plenty of women that prefer to just trust their husbands plans and not worry with things. You're not alone.


I have no desire to have full responsibility for this marriage or family. I am happy to help, to be the default leader, but I have always felt this was his project. He funds it and he directs it, at least broadly. I am happy to go along with things, and I certainly let him know everything I think. And really, we just do not have many disagreements.

What you said about picking . . . Dh picked me. I thought we were just friends. Then all of a sudden he told me he loved me. Then the next week he told me he wanted us to breastfeed and homeschool our children. A month or so later he said we would buy a house on one income, and there would be at least three kids. And as bossy as all that seems, I am really glad we followed his plan. It has worked out really well. I never would have come up with those ideas myself, but I am really glad he did. And I am so glad I listened.

Thank you for your kind and supportive comments.


----------



## jld

SA, thanks so much for sharing that article. I read it once, but it looks like something to study over and over again.

This site is fascinating. I am learning a lot. Thank you for your contributions here!


----------



## jld

Coffee Amore said:


> There's no harm in asking questions. If we all thought alike this board wouldn't be so lively.
> 
> What I have a hard time wrapping my brain around is why you think your husband is the key to your marital success. He hasn't contributed any more than you have. At least that's my perception.
> 
> If he worked outside the home, you still have to take care of the home and the children, so that his attention could be at the workplace. So you contributed to the marriage.
> 
> If he brought the income, you still had to find ways to live with the budget your family has. So you contributed to the marriage.
> 
> He should be grateful you were there to raise the family, keep a good home, buy wisely with the money earned.
> 
> Haven't you provided stablity and reassurance to him too? I'm not being sarcastic. Just curious. It doesn't sound like your marriage is all one-way as it seemed in your first few posts.
> 
> Do you see my point? Unless you're sitting on the couch eating bonbons all day, and it doesn't sound like you are, you contributed to the marriage just as he did, so the praise doesn't have to go just to him. You both made it work. You're both responsible for the success of your marriage.


I think you are making some good points here. Taking care of kids is certainly work. But it is privileged work, only possible through dh's generosity. 

I am vulnerable. He is not. If something happens to me, his life proceeds somewhat normally. If he dies, yes there is life insurance, but I would still need a full-time job for health care and regular income.

Dh is always telling me the same things you have said, btw. He is so grateful I am with the kids. He has great respect for mothers. Any devaluing of myself is my fault, not his. He has been trying to improve my confidence for over twenty years now.


----------



## jld

skype said:


> A marriage is a relationship, so I don't think that either the husband or the wife alone is the key to long-term marital success. Jld, you obviously picked someone who is well-suited to you, and that is the key to a successful marriage. Choose a compatible person and meet each other's needs, that is the formula for a long-term marriage.


Well, I did not pick dh, lol, but I did accept his love. I guess it is true about the match being important. I am sure some pairings are more difficult than others.

Your last sentence is pure wisdom. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## jld

Coffee Amore said:


> You haven't caused a fuss at all!
> 
> You should see the threads here about girls night out or past sexual experiences if you want to see a heated thread.


Lol! I will have to look for those!


----------



## jld

over20 said:


> My marriage is very traditional and we are both happy. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like your husband is a loving leader. As he leads and supports the family he has created a healthy marriage and unit. As he has met your needs in turn you have created a happy hearth/home. It sounds like a win-win. I am a Christian, sounds like you might be also? Scripture does teach loving leadership in the New Testament. The husband leads the home as Christ leads the church. Even giving his life for the church. By being a leader in the home, sounds like your husband has put his wife and children first by leading by love and example. A very noble trait.
> 
> My husband is a very selfless person too. He has always told me that when he sees my smile and laugh it warms his heart because he knows I am happy. He always wants me to be happy, (not so much the teenagers cause they are grumpy :rofl Maybe what has happened in your marriage is that you have met his needs so he in turn wants to strive to meet yours. Maybe you didn't even know that you have touched him so.
> 
> Sounds like you are very blessed, enjoy it and maybe mentor to another couple who is struggling!
> 
> Btw my husband is very selfless but very masculine. He is alpha all the way which makes it easy for me to respect him and lift him up in our home. I know there are probably 1000's of women that would want him. He's the strong "Women and children first" type.


Dh is super kind. I feel really lucky.

And his kindness (along with some of the frightening things I have read on some of the boards) makes me want to be as kind as I can back.

We both grew up Catholic. We rarely go to church now, but we both believe in God and pray. Our son has had cancer twice, and that is a great sadness for us, as his life expectancy has been greatly diminished. We keep hoping, though . . .

I do believe I can put dh's name in 1 Corinthians 4-7. That man is love.

You know, I read some of His Needs, Her Needs recently, and I asked dh was his needs were and how I could meet them. He said, "You're meeting them." Then I asked what they were, so I could be sure to keep meeting them. "I don't know, but I know you're meeting them," he replied. Lol.

I am glad you have a happy marriage, too, over20. We really are lucky. Doesn't your heart just break for the people in pain here? It is just so sad, and really, so unnecessary. So often a little more selflessness and a lot more caring and giving on both sides could turn things around. Couldn't it in all our marriages?

One thing I have learned from reading these boards the last few months is the importance of giving selflessly. I am pretty selfish, but I have tried to change my attitude. Now I am giving dh regular blow jobs. They are not just for birthdays anymore, lol. I wish I would have adopted this giving attitude right from the beginning.

Thank you for your post, and for your encouragement. I wish you and your dh many happy years together!


----------



## jld

Thanks, everyone, for your participation in this thread. I did not mean for it to become just a personal story. I was using my experience to raise a question, but the discussion did not seem to take off in that direction, I guess.

If anyone does think that a man's commitment level is key in marriage, please share why. I have thought this for a long time but have never really done research on it. The consensus so far seems to be that this idea is inaccurate.


----------



## norajane

I don't believe marital success is based on only one person's actions. There are always two in a marriage, and no one person can make it work without the other.


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## Coffee Amore

jld said:


> If anyone does think that a man's commitment level is key in marriage, please share why. I have thought this for a long time but have never really done research on it. The consensus so far seems to be that this idea is inaccurate.


I think a man's commitment level is key in a marriage. I think a woman's commitment level is key in a marriage. No one person's commitment is more important in the marriage. It's marriage..a union of two people..both should be committed, not one more than the other. It's a two-way street. It isn't one person's job to keep the marriage happy, strong and stable.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I don't have anything like a traditional marriage but...I do think that the fact that my husband is so invested in me, us, our marriage and our family is actually the key to our success. I bring so much to the table too, but really his ability to love so deeply is what inspires me to be such a good wife to him.


----------



## skype

jld said:


> Now I am giving dh regular blow jobs. They are not just for birthdays anymore, lol. I wish I would have adopted this giving attitude right from the beginning.


Good for you! Most men have an active sex life as one of their needs from a marriage. That is how they feel loved by and connected to their wife. It goes a long way toward overcoming petty resentments that arise in any marriage, and it helps keep the avenues of communication open between you.

You sound like a wonderful wife, married to a thoughtful, caring man. You and your husband are indeed blessed.


----------



## jld

skype said:


> Good for you! Most men have an active sex life as one of their needs from a marriage. That is how they feel loved by and connected to their wife. It goes a long way toward overcoming petty resentments that arise in any marriage, and it helps keep the avenues of communication open between you.
> 
> You sound like a wonderful wife, married to a thoughtful, caring man. You and your husband are indeed blessed.


Lol! I am blushing about a million shades of red. I can't believe I wrote that! Lolol!

And thank you for the kind words.


----------



## jld

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't have anything like a traditional marriage but...I do think that the fact that my husband is so invested in me, us, our marriage and our family is actually the key to our success. I bring so much to the table too, but really his ability to love so deeply is what inspires me to be such a good wife to him.


Thank you, FW. I was really wondering if I was some kind of freak, I mean, anomaly.

Dh says I bring a lot, too, like communication skills, to our marriage. But I just don't see how any of that would have mattered if he hadn't wanted the marriage in the first place. 

I feel like he first loved me, and then earned my trust and respect. I could not love and give myself to a man that I did not trust and respect. Once he had that, his plan could take off.

And it is not like I haven't initiated anything ever, either. About 6 years ago, I told him to ask for a $25k raise. He resisted, but then did it . . . And got it! I take credit for it, lol!


----------



## jld

Coffee Amore said:


> I think a man's commitment level is key in a marriage. I think a woman's commitment level is key in a marriage. No one person's commitment is more important in the marriage. It's marriage..a union of two people..both should be committed, not one more than the other. It's a two-way street. It isn't one person's job to keep the marriage happy, strong and stable.


Okay, this sounds good in theory, but I am not sure it always works this way in reality. I have just seen too many women try to carry their marriages themselves. It looks really hard. And I don't think anybody is really happy.

Two of my older sisters have lived this way for years. They seem pretty responsible and committed to me, but I don't see that from their husbands. Otoh, my brother is probably more committed than his wife, but their marriage is better than those of my two sisters.

I just think there is more hope for a marriage when the man is committed than vice versa.

CA, are you a mom? Did you have any trouble with your pregnancies or deliveries? Was your dh there to help you? Can you imagine how hard it would have been without him?

Imagine a mom trying to do all that by herself. Yes, she can probably survive it, but who is going to thrive under those conditions? 

I guess I just think marriage is easier when the man is fully on board. Maybe it is just my own prejudice, but I think a man, with consistent, selfless love and caring for his wife, is more likely to be able to solidify his marriage, than a woman attempting to do the same with an uncommitted man.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
I believe at any given point in time at least one spouse has to be totally committed. And it can just as easily be the wife as the husband. 

Separate from that 'someone' has to lead in each of the major areas of a marriage because otherwise you end up with a tie with one vote each for a different outcome. Taking turns holding the 'tie breaker' vote doesn't work for major decisions that only arise every few years. 
- Finances 
- Parenting
- Intimacy

Ideally each person leads in the areas they are best suited for. 

Good leadership bonds and motivates. Bad leadership/controlling behaviors feel oppressive and create conflict or resentment. And the main difference between them is mostly whether their priorities are mostly selfless: 
1. The well being of the family overall
2. The needs/wants of the individual family members
3. Their own needs/wants
Or mostly selfish
1. Their own needs/wants
2. Other family members needs and wants






jld said:


> You know my dh's type well, MEM. He read your post and said he is not as organized as all that, but agreed that the essence is there.
> 
> He is definitely not into male toys, lol. That really does seem to be a money drain for a lot of families. I could not respect a man who put his pleasures before his family's needs. And there seem to be so many men who do that.
> 
> That part about all of us respecting him is so true. Everybody in this family looks up to dh.
> 
> Funny story: Dd18 is a freshman in college, studying chem engineering. Dh is a mech engineer. Dd told me a few weeks ago that she is anxious to progress in her engineering studies, because she wants to see "if Dad is really as smart as we all think he is." Dh laughed out loud when he heard that.
> 
> Question for you: Do you think that a committed husband is the key to a successful marriage? Why or why not?


----------



## MEM2020

My W and I were dating. She got pregnant by accident - by then I was already in love with her. 

Shortly afterwards she told me that:
- she would breast feed and 
- it would be a really good idea if we could make everything work on my income (she is super responsible with money) and
- that we would be having 3 kids 
Oh yeah and one more thing - one day we were standing in the living room and she pointed to the bedroom door and said:
- you rule in there
- I rule out here

I just shrugged. Mostly that has worked. The last few years have been tough. 

That's how come I said it could work with either a man or a woman. Main difference - your husband doesn't have boundary issues. My wife does. 



jld said:


> I have no desire to have full responsibility for this marriage or family. I am happy to help, to be the default leader, but I have always felt this was his project. He funds it and he directs it, at least broadly. I am happy to go along with things, and I certainly let him know everything I think. And really, we just do not have many disagreements.
> 
> What you said about picking . . . Dh picked me. I thought we were just friends. Then all of a sudden he told me he loved me. Then the next week he told me he wanted us to breastfeed and homeschool our children. A month or so later he said we would buy a house on one income, and there would be at least three kids. And as bossy as all that seems, I am really glad we followed his plan. It has worked out really well. I never would have come up with those ideas myself, but I am really glad he did. And I am so glad I listened.
> 
> Thank you for your kind and supportive comments.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *a traditional marriage just does not seem acceptable in today's world. It is not that it does not work, at least for some, but it just does not seem in step with today's society. Everything is equal, equal. I know my marriage is not equal. As soon as you deal with financial inequality (difference in earning capacity), any equality is thrown out the window.*


 I can relate to your feelings on this....with the growing rate of divorce in our society -touching half of all marriages... most feel it is too risky to allow a man to take care of them....we shouldn't put all of our eggs in one basket...being old fashioned is referred to as "archaic" by some, or if we greet our husbands at the door, we might be called "stepford wives.... is there something wrong with just enjoying being a devoted wife/ Mother ...do we always need more to be fulfilled. 

It is a vulnerable position....I suppose, but many things in life are.

I have mentally wrestled with this... stick my head in every SAHM thread...and share our Traditional lifestyle......it is dying a slow death.... it is what me & mine has wanted from the very start, I feel our family has been blessed by this lifestyle.. I am happy... he is happy...our children are happy...sure we have had to make sacrifices along the way...to afford this lifestyle.. but we'd say it was worth it. 



> I think you are making some good points here. Taking care of kids is certainly work. But it is privileged work, only possible through dh's generosity.
> 
> I am vulnerable. He is not. If something happens to me, his life proceeds somewhat normally. If he dies, yes there is life insurance, but I would still need a full-time job for health care and regular income.
> 
> *Dh is always telling me the same things you have said, btw. He is so grateful I am with the kids. He has great respect for mothers. Any devaluing of myself is my fault, not his. He has been trying to improve my confidence for over twenty years now*.


 That is wonderful your husband has this attitude and supports you as he does.. for every woman who has this, another one doesn't -or she feels under -appreciated ...
When you first started posting jld, I was under the impression you were newly married.. I had that all wrong... why the lack of confidence, do you compare yourself to other women?

I have done this from time to time.. but then I know in my heart I don't really envy them, as I wouldn't want a career, I truly love being in the home... with the life we share, humble as it may be. It has always fulfilled me..if we didn't have kids (we have 6 ranging from age 6-23) , I probably would get bored..but they keep us hopping.

I think the best scenario is this* >>* When the husband uplifts and praises his wife for HER contribution ...feeling how valuable it is... and when the WIFE does the same for her husband, showing on a daily basis how much we appreciate him....Cause we [email protected]# ... How can anyone go wrong with that... IN my heart, I too feel His role is more important, more difficult, it carries more weight....he upholds us all... without him, we'd all fall... 

And he tells me - he'd be lost without me, that I am the brains behind the outfit... we work together... we uplift each other... our roles may be different, but both carry it's importance & "need"......pulling our own weight to help the other...appreciation springs from this.. 



jld said:


> So often a little more selflessness and a lot more caring and giving on both sides could turn things around. Couldn't it in all our marriages?
> 
> One thing I have learned from reading these boards the last few months is the importance of giving selflessly. * I am pretty selfish, but I have tried to change my attitude. Now I am giving dh regular blow jobs. They are not just for birthdays anymore, lol. I wish I would have adopted this giving attitude right from the beginning.*


 That's wonderful... I have gotten better here too, amazing what some mid life hormones can do! I didn't realize just how much it means to our husbands -basically to "Worship at the throne"... so to speak. It has had a wonderful effect on my husband, he has opened up more vulnerably and it's brought us closer in ways I thought was good before, but it's revived a passion in us both....towards each other...Not something I ever want to let go of...

So sorry to hear about your son, this has to be so very difficult, I can not imagine, I hope for that miracle for him to pull through. 



jld said:


> *I guess I just think marriage is easier when the man is fully on board. Maybe it is just my own prejudice, but I think a man, with consistent, selfless love and caring for his wife, is more likely to be able to solidify his marriage, than a woman attempting to do the same with an uncommitted man*.


I think much of this depends on the woman he marries......Just going by many of the stories here on TAM....but of course we only hear 1 side...there appears to be plenty of decent loving men/ fathers who were giving/ caring, seemed to do all the right things by his wife...yet still got blindsided and cheated on...for whatever reason. 

I think *Compatibility* is key... a *good foundation*, *similar core values*...and *healthy boundaries*...I also think keeping the *Romance* alive is very important.....and *communication, communication, communication*...being careful to resolve conflict along the way... to avoid any resentment that can so easily suck our "intimacy" and zeal for each other.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> I believe at any given point in time at least one spouse has to be totally committed. And it can just as easily be the wife as the husband.
> 
> Separate from that 'someone' has to lead in each of the major areas of a marriage because otherwise you end up with a tie with one vote each for a different outcome. Taking turns holding the 'tie breaker' vote doesn't work for major decisions that only arise every few years.
> - Finances
> - Parenting
> - Intimacy
> 
> Ideally each person leads in the areas they are best suited for.
> 
> Good leadership bonds and motivates. Bad leadership/controlling behaviors feel oppressive and create conflict or resentment. And the main difference between them is mostly whether their priorities are mostly selfless:
> 1. The well being of the family overall
> 2. The needs/wants of the individual family members
> 3. Their own needs/wants
> Or mostly selfish
> 1. Their own needs/wants
> 2. Other family members needs and wants


Lol. I must be one of the few who does think it makes a difference who the committed one is. 

Dh and I were talking about this this morning, and he seems to agree with me. He works in a male-dominated industry, and he has heard stories for years about how men treat their wives. He has long said that men are selfish and women are vulnerable. 

I have seen a lot of women who work full-time and raise two kids and keep house and have a husband who may work, but who also spends plenty of time at the bar or out pursuing his hobbies. My sisters' husbands come to mind.

Okay, I am certainly willing to admit I may be wrong about this. Maybe a committed husband is not the key to marriage. Or maybe it is the key for my marriage. I could not have had five kids, happily, without my dh and his structure for us. I would not have wanted to. Honestly, having 5 kids would not have even occurred to me. Lol!

That last section was just golden, MEM. Selfless giving really is the key. Dh puts himself last. Everything is about what the family needs. Honestly, he should be more selfish, and I am trying to encourage that, in healthy ways.

Thank you for your post, especially what you wrote about leadership -- very instructive.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> My W and I were dating. She got pregnant by accident - by then I was already in love with her.
> 
> Shortly afterwards she told me that:
> - she would breast feed and
> - it would be a really good idea if we could make everything work on my income (she is super responsible with money) and
> - that we would be having 3 kids
> Oh yeah and one more thing - one day we were standing in the living room and she pointed to the bedroom door and said:
> - you rule in there
> - I rule out here
> 
> I just shrugged. Mostly that has worked. The last few years have been tough.
> 
> That's how come I said it could work with either a man or a woman. Main difference - your husband doesn't have boundary issues. My wife does.


Your wife really sounds like a leader. That must come from within. 

I tend to ask dh things, to see if it would be okay. He usually agrees.

I guess it is good she knew what she wanted, and breastfeeding really is so good for kids. 

It sounds like both of you are leaders, MEM-- you with the finances, and she with the kids. I am sure you are both grateful to each other for your contributions to the family.

By boundary issues, do you mean she can't hear no? 

Dh is very respectful. Even if I do look up to him, it is not like he holds his power over me. He really considers me. I really feel he wants the best for me. That's why I like to clear things with him. I feel like he is smart and might be able to point things out that I have not considered.


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> I can relate to your feelings on this....with the growing rate of divorce in our society -touching half of all marriages... most feel it is too risky to allow a man to take care of them....we shouldn't put all of our eggs in one basket...being old fashioned is referred to as "archaic" by some, or if we greet our husbands at the door, we might be called "stepford wives.... is there something wrong with just enjoying being a devoted wife/ Mother ...do we always need more to be fulfilled.
> 
> It is a vulnerable position....I suppose, but many things in life are.
> 
> I have mentally wrestled with this... stick my head in every SAHM thread...and share our Traditional lifestyle......it is dying a slow death.... it is what me & mine has wanted from the very start, I feel our family has been blessed by this lifestyle.. I am happy... he is happy...our children are happy...sure we have had to make sacrifices along the way...to afford this lifestyle.. but we'd say it was worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> That is wonderful your husband has this attitude and supports you as he does.. for every woman who has this, another one doesn't -or she feels under -appreciated ...
> When you first started posting jld, I was under the impression you were newly married.. I had that all wrong... why the lack of confidence, do you compare yourself to other women?
> 
> I have done this from time to time.. but then I know in my heart I don't really envy them, as I wouldn't want a career, I truly love being in the home... with the life we share, humble as it may be. It has always fulfilled me..if we didn't have kids (we have 6 ranging from age 6-23) , I probably would get bored..but they keep us hopping.
> 
> I think the best scenario is this* >>* When the husband uplifts and praises his wife for HER contribution ...feeling how valuable it is... and when the WIFE does the same for her husband, showing on a daily basis how much we appreciate him....Cause we [email protected]# ... How can anyone go wrong with that... IN my heart, I too feel His role is more important, more difficult, it carries more weight....he upholds us all... without him, we'd all fall...
> 
> And he tells me - he'd be lost without me, that I am the brains behind the outfit... we work together... we uplift each other... our roles may be different, but both carry it's importance & "need"......pulling our own weight to help the other...appreciation springs from this..
> 
> That's wonderful... I have gotten better here too, amazing what some mid life hormones can do! I didn't realize just how much it means to our husbands -basically to "Worship at the throne"... so to speak. It has had a wonderful effect on my husband, he has opened up more vulnerably and it's brought us closer in ways I thought was good before, but it's revived a passion in us both....towards each other...Not something I ever want to let go of...
> 
> So sorry to hear about your son, this has to be so very difficult, I can not imagine, I hope for that miracle for him to pull through.
> 
> 
> 
> I think much of this depends on the woman he marries......Just going by many of the stories here on TAM....but of course we only hear 1 side...there appears to be plenty of decent loving men/ fathers who were giving/ caring, seemed to do all the right things by his wife...yet still got blindsided and cheated on...for whatever reason.
> 
> I think *Compatibility* is key... a *good foundation*, *similar core values*...and *healthy boundaries*...I also think keeping the *Romance* alive is very important.....and *communication, communication, communication*...being careful to resolve conflict along the way... to avoid any resentment that can so easily suck our "intimacy" and zeal for each other.


Can I first just say what a sweetheart you are, SA? Your posts are always so kindly. I really appreciate your presence here!

In my heart, I feel I am doing the right things. But when your life does not include paid work, it just seems like you are a little bit outside the rest of society. I even feel like I can't give an opinion on things sometimes because I have not been a full-time working mom. It's like, you're just spoiled, you don't know anything, you don't count. So I just tend to be quiet.

In some ways it is not much different than this thread. I don't know if it is really that people think it is not key for a husband to be committed, or if it is that not a lot of men are, and so people just don't know what that would look like.

SA, my husband would give his life for me or our kids. He never asks for anything. It is all about the kids and me. How could we not respond to that kind of love? We all want to please him.

And if all women had a man in their lives who just covered them, absolutely bathed them, in love, not according to the man's definition of love, but according to the wife's, how many women could resist that?

Imagine a man who basically told you, "There is nothing you have done, and nothing you can do, that is going to stop my loving you. I am not afraid of your anger. I do not need you to give to me. But I am going to give to you. I want to heal your hurts. I know you are scared in life, but you don't have to be scared of me. I am here for you. And I always will be." And then he backed it all up with his actions.

I think if more women had that, there would be very little BPD or other behavioral disorders in our society. I think there would be a lot of healing, a lot of lives and marriages restored, and a lot of healthy, stable children. 

We have lived on three continents, and everywhere we have lived, people have commented on how devoted dh is to us. I hear it regularly. How patient he is. How kind. The perfect husband. Which leads into . . .

My lack of confidence. Nobody ever says I am the perfect wife, SA. Except dh. When you are always hearing how great your dh is, and you know you are just your average selfish, lazy, middle class American, you feel inadequate and you wonder why he even wants to be with you.

Okay, going to post this and I will continue.


----------



## jld

Now, my sister did tell me I should not take all the compliments towards dh as some kind of sign of my inadequacy. She said that everyone expects a wife and mother to be devoted. But when people see it from a man, it is considered exceptional, and, I guess, comment-worthy.

The other thing is that I just feel like dh is a better person than I am. He just has a better character. You know his boss told him this last summer that he is a saint? She could tell already, and she had only had the job a month.

If I had more confidence, I would feel like this all reflected well on me, like I really knew how to pick a good husband. But I know better. I did not pick him. He picked me. 

It was like a rescue marriage, I swear. I had just come out of an awful relationship. I absolutely hated myself. I thought dh and I were just friends. And then one day he told me he loved me. And I told him, no, he didn't, he just wanted to have sex with me. And then there was silence. And then I asked why it was so dark on the road. He was so stunned by my response, he had forgotten to turn the lights on. We were driving on the road in the dark, lol!

Well, I talked to another teacher at school the next day, and told her how I had avoided getting used by another guy. I thought she would congratulate me, but she had met dh, and she did not think I should have just brushed him aside. I was really surprised, and thought about the whole thing the rest of the day. 

The thought came to me that he would be a good husband, a good father, and a good provider, and I decided to give him a try. We went to a dinner party together that night, and made out afterwards. A day later I sat down and told him every bad thing I could think of about myself and my family, just anything I could think of that would make him not want to be with me. But he still wanted me. He didn't blame me for the bad relationship, which I still think is a miracle. He told me he felt bad for everything that had happened to me. I sure was not expecting that.

And then the next week he told me he wanted us to breastfeed and homeschool our kids. What? I remember thinking that that must mean we were getting married. He wanted us to put our money together and I told him we had to save something for marriage, lol. I only had 2k, anyway. He had like 10k.

Basically I told him every reason he should not want me, and he still did, and had a big plan for us. And because I did not have any kind of plan at all in life, and because I just felt this big trust in him that I could not really explain, I just went with his plan. And I think it has worked out pretty well. I am completely transparent with him, and I listen when he says no.

I still think he could have gotten a better wife, and so does his mother.. But he insists he has the best wife for him, and I am in counseling yet again for confidence issues. The therapist has said, though, that low self-esteem is common in women. So I am in good company!


----------



## over20

jld said:


> Dh is super kind. I feel really lucky.
> 
> And his kindness (along with some of the frightening things I have read on some of the boards) makes me want to be as kind as I can back.
> 
> We both grew up Catholic. We rarely go to church now, but we both believe in God and pray. Our son has had cancer twice, and that is a great sadness for us, as his life expectancy has been greatly diminished. We keep hoping, though . . .
> 
> I do believe I can put dh's name in 1 Corinthians 4-7. That man is love.
> 
> You know, I read some of His Needs, Her Needs recently, and I asked dh was his needs were and how I could meet them. He said, "You're meeting them." Then I asked what they were, so I could be sure to keep meeting them. "I don't know, but I know you're meeting them," he replied. Lol.
> 
> I am glad you have a happy marriage, too, over20. We really are lucky. Doesn't your heart just break for the people in pain here? It is just so sad, and really, so unnecessary. So often a little more selflessness and a lot more caring and giving on both sides could turn things around. Couldn't it in all our marriages?
> 
> One thing I have learned from reading these boards the last few months is the importance of giving selflessly. I am pretty selfish, but I have tried to change my attitude. Now I am giving dh regular blow jobs. They are not just for birthdays anymore, lol. I wish I would have adopted this giving attitude right from the beginning.
> 
> Thank you for your post, and for your encouragement. I wish you and your dh many happy years together!


I smiled at your newfound selflessness in giving your DH regular blowjobs. I do the same. At first I felt I was giving him a gift but have since realized I am the one receiving the gift. I am truly blessed to know every inch of his body and enjoying all the smells and tastes that come with it.  It creates a more intimate marriage, that sadly some women will never know about.

While I do not know what you are going through with your son, we have best friends who did go through this. Their son had A.L.L. (Acute Lymphatic Lymphoma) twice. He is doing wonderful today, a strong 19 year old. The point is I do remember the heavy,heavy burden that rested on the family. The fact that you and your DH have a beautiful,strong marriage despite what the family has gone through, is quite impressive.:yay::yay:

The two of you are strong roles models to other's in your life.

I will pray for your sonray:ray:ray:

Blessings to you and your family during this Christmas season filled with the ultimate Love and Hope!!


----------



## jld

Just a few last thoughts here, SA. I really liked what you said about sahms being vulnerable, but aren't we all vulnerable in some ways. 

Gosh, that is something to think about. Really, we are all vulnerable. I feel like I have taken this huge risk by not having a career, but I could not have done both. And I am really happy with how things have turned out. People are always complimenting us on our kids. And they really are wonderful. Even my ds8 holds the door open for me. His dad has been such a good role model.

And our dd18 is so hard-working. She studied like crazy in high school and got a lot of scholarships for college. Our bill is pretty low. And she is very responsible and helpful when she is here.

Ds14 is the one we worry about. He has a 25% chance of being alive in 4 years. I cried like crazy last year when he relapsed. We did not know if he would survive the second bone marrow transplant. 

But he did, and he is in remission, and who knows? Maybe he will be that one out of four kids with relapsed AML who lives more than 5 years. 

In the meantime, we just try to have him enjoy every day. He does schoolwork, but not like dd18 did. She just could not get enough. But I cannot see insisting on preparing for a future that may never be. So he does what he is inspired to do, mostly math with some French reading thrown in, and piano, Latin and logic when I force it, lol, and then he pursues his other interests.

I am basically home to be with the kids. I am not a real homemaker, sewing and gardening and all the real SAHM skills. But it is what dh wanted, and I like it, and we both like the results, so that is what I am doing.

You know, I found these boards by accident, but they have been a great distraction from ds's cancer. I could get down about that everyday. My marriage is something I can do something about. I can read the posts here and think about ways to give more to dh. I can't do anything about my son's cancer.

Thanks so much for your understanding, thoughtful post, SA. And again, thank you so much for your presence here. Your gentleness is appreciated.


----------



## jld

over20 said:


> I smiled at your newfound selflessness in giving your DH regular blowjobs. I do the same. At first I felt I was giving him a gift but have since realized I am the one receiving the gift. I am truly blessed to know every inch of his body and enjoying all the smells and tastes that come with it.  It creates a more intimate marriage, that sadly some women will never know about.
> 
> While I do not know what you are going through with your son, we have best friends who did go through this. Their son had A.L.L. (Acute Lymphatic Lymphoma) twice. He is doing wonderful today, a strong 19 year old. The point is I do remember the heavy,heavy burden that rested on the family. The fact that you and your DH have a beautiful,strong marriage despite what the family has gone through, is quite impressive.:yay::yay:
> 
> The two of you are strong roles models to other's in your life.
> 
> I will pray for your sonray:ray:ray:
> 
> Blessings to you and your family during this Christmas season filled with the ultimate Love and Hope!!


Thanks, over20. I am glad your friends' son is doing so well. Our son has AML, and the prognosis is not as good as for ALL. But we are grateful for every day with him.

You are way ahead of me on enjoying the bj. Hats off! I do it in the spirit of loving service, lol. 

Are you as shocked as I am by all the sexless or sex-lite marriages we read about here? I mean, I know I have not had the right attitude towards bjs, but we have always had piv regularly. I have rarely said no, and I have initiated, too. I've always felt men needed it, like exercise or healthy meals. And don't women realize they are really just helping themselves when they keep their man happy? Not that I'm all about my own comfort or anything.

Thank you for your prayers, and blessings to you and yours, too!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> Selfless giving really is the key. *Dh puts himself last. Everything is about what the family needs. Honestly, he should be more selfish, and I am trying to encourage that, in healthy ways.*


I had to laugh at your comment -encouraging his selfishness...

I have been posting here for 4 years & you are the 1st wife I've heard say this...besides myself.... we have had the silliest arguments over me feeling he needs to be *more selfish*....who can relate to this [email protected]#$....it's not like I am mad...it's very sweet.. but geez, he makes me look bad sometimes ! The kids always come 1st.. or me.. This does make him feel good though, he is not doing it to win favors, he just enjoys making us happy... the problem with men geared this way (could be a temperament thing, plus just being a great family man )...is some women, kids, friends, family can take advantage of this...*the man needs to not allow THAT to happen*. 

I always make sure he gets his ...even if I have to tell him to get over it..."Baby, I know this is what you want...this is what we are doing"...."Buy it"...."if you don't eat this cookie, I will !" ....whatever the case may be... He is HONEST with what he wants... but he may say "I feel guilty, I can't take food out of the kids mouths" or something like that. 

I can't say I have ever had this affliction like him...ha ha 



> In my heart, I feel I am doing the right things. But when your life does not include paid work, it just seems like you are a little bit outside the rest of society. *I even feel like I can't give an opinion on things sometimes because I have not been a full-time working mom. It's like, you're just spoiled, you don't know anything, you don't count. So I just tend to be quiet*.


 I would encourage you to not feel this way.. you have a voice and experiences just like everyone else here...



> And if all women had a man in their lives who just covered them, absolutely bathed them, in love, not according to the man's definition of love, but according to the wife's, how many women could resist that?


 I still think it depends...it's not so cut & dried here.... many women are Attracted to ALPHA males....not "over loving" Beta types .... I am not sure how you would define your husband, although I'd say mine has exempt character...great handyman, Excellent Provider/ Father...he is kinda "soft".... some women just aren't turned on by that....they want a MANLY man... dominant, Exciting...does his own thing.... turned on by his passion in other areas even.... Maybe he excels at car racing, or he is a Top Doctor, something like that...and they thrive being on his arm... 



> My lack of confidence. Nobody ever says I am the perfect wife, SA. Except dh. When you are always hearing how great your dh is, and you know you are just your average selfish, lazy, middle class American, you feel inadequate and you wonder why he even wants to be with you.


 From reading your last post, sounds like you came from a very dysfunctional family and a bad relationship before he showed you he wanted you.....you didn't have any direction... and there he was...took your hand and showed you a better way....

I kinda feel this way about my husband coming into my life....though I think I had confidence even then. I was always very strong minded....if you told me left, I'd probably argue it was right (if I could).....I was never easily led..... yet he was more stable emotionally...because he came from a loving home (plus his temperament is just like that)... he loved me even when I had some "attitude"...he was patient with me....he didn't take it personally...knowing I had chips on my shoulder.... angry over my home life...I shared every vulnerable part of myself to, and knew I was safe in his arms... . he was my best friend before we even kissed.... he too had faith *in us*. 



> Ds14 is the one we worry about. He has a 25% chance of being alive in 4 years. I cried like crazy last year when he relapsed. *We did not know if he would survive the second bone marrow transplant*.
> 
> But he did and he is in remission, and who knows? Maybe he will be that one out of four kids with relapsed AML who lives more than 5 years.


 That's great he is now in remission...I was just reading about this....how those who go over 5 years without a relapse are considered "cured"...it's like you hate to get your hopes up for something that may not be...that will make the heart so sick... but how can you brace yourself either way... so while he is here, you must hang on to HOPE...cling to it.. it keeps you going...and whatever to give him a Happy mother before him -while he is here...but not knowing...I can't imagine how difficult it must be.... 

Yes...TAM ...a nice distraction... you want to hear something funny, when I came here, I was thinking I had a sex addiction..and yeah... posting on a Marriage/ sex board would have been better than looking at Red Tube! I was reading so many books on sex, hormones, spicing, I thought I could help others here....and learn some new things...plus I wanted a little more out of him.... and got sucked into posting here...it was a healthy distraction for me -to not attack him 3 times a day.. ha ha... Sometimes a distraction is GOOD!


----------



## over20

jld said:


> Thanks, over20. I am glad your friends' son is doing so well. Our son has AML, and the prognosis is not as good as for ALL. But we are grateful for every day with him.
> 
> You are way ahead of me on enjoying the bj. Hats off! I do it in the spirit of loving service, lol.
> 
> Are you as shocked as I am by all the sexless or sex-lite marriages we read about here? I mean, I know I have not had the right attitude towards bjs, but we have always had piv regularly. I have rarely said no, and I have initiated, too. I've always felt men needed it, like exercise or healthy meals. And don't women realize they are really just helping themselves when they keep their man happy? Not that I'm all about my own comfort or anything.
> 
> Thank you for your prayers, and blessings to you and yours, too!



Yes, I am shocked at the large number of sexless marriages there on on TAM. I think there are more men than women that are unhappy. Reading a lot of these forums have made me a better wife and helped me understand men a lot better. Some women though are selfish and won't change to make their intimate life better. They forget change begins with one. There is this sense of entitlement in their minds. IDK. They are really missing out though. 

A good man is hard to find, but easy to keep!


----------



## Coffee Amore

jld said:


> Okay, this sounds good in theory, but I am not sure it always works this way in reality. I have just seen too many women try to carry their marriages themselves. It looks really hard. And I don't think anybody is really happy.
> 
> Two of my older sisters have lived this way for years. They seem pretty responsible and committed to me, but I don't see that from their husbands. Otoh, my brother is probably more committed than his wife, but their marriage is better than those of my two sisters.
> 
> I just think there is more hope for a marriage when the man is committed than vice versa.
> 
> CA, are you a mom? Did you have any trouble with your pregnancies or deliveries? Was your dh there to help you? Can you imagine how hard it would have been without him?
> 
> Imagine a mom trying to do all that by herself. Yes, she can probably survive it, but who is going to thrive under those conditions?
> 
> I guess I just think marriage is easier when the man is fully on board. Maybe it is just my own prejudice, but I think a man, with consistent, selfless love and caring for his wife, is more likely to be able to solidify his marriage, than a woman attempting to do the same with an uncommitted man.


We make it work in my marriage. We both work full-time outside the home. We both share the parenting and household responsibilities. Scattered among my thousands of posts is the story of my marriage. It's not in any one place here. Our difficulties were minor compared to the things you read here. We had some issues, but we got advice from several places (books and websites), we together resolved those issues over time.

I am a mother. Actually my first pregnancy was difficult at the end when I was on bed rest for a short while. The delivery was really complicated too with the NICU being involved for a while. My husband was absolutely there to help me. He was (is) great!

I would find someone who is overly loving and completely selfless toward me, a doormat. I'd feel smothered too if he "bathed me in love". I'd want someone who has some backbone and spine. I have a fairly strong personality. I think I could dominate a man who was too soft, so to speak.  

My husband is a great provider, wonderful father and husband. He is very, very supportive. He is my best friend and has been my best friend since I met him, but he isn't dominated by me in any way, and I like that! He has deep interests in certain topics. He can hold his own on those things. I like that while I am absolutely a priority for him, the world doesn't revolve around me. He's also fit. He takes care of himself. He doesn't pick fights, he isn't some tattooed bar hopping bad boy, he swears far less than I do, but I know he can be relied on to take of us in all the ways a man can take of a woman.

I agree with what SA said here in her post to you..



SimplyAmorous said:


> I still think it depends...it's not so cut & dried here.... many women are Attracted to ALPHA males....not "over loving" Beta types .... I am not sure how you would define your husband, although I'd say mine has exempt character...great handyman, Excellent Provider/ Father...he is kinda "soft".... some women just aren't turned on by that....they want a MANLY man... dominant, Exciting...does his own thing.... turned on by his passion in other areas even.... Maybe he excels at car racing, or he is a Top Doctor, something like that...and they thrive being on his arm...


----------



## jld

Mrs. John Adams said:


> My personal feeling is is takes two to make a marriage. However, both parties have individual strengths and weaknesses. It is best of course, if the strengths and weaknesses compliment each other. John is a very stable, serious, responsible person. I am the more emotional, flighty person. So he pulls much of the weight sometimes. But other times, I carry the weight. We find he is strong when I am weak and I am strong when he is weak.
> 
> You both have to be equally committed to the relationship...but you certainly have differing roles. I am not sure the commitment word is the right one you mean. I feel you both have to be absolutely committed to make the relationship work.


I think you are right that I am not using the correct word. I did not realize how hard it would be to accurately communicate on this topic. I feel kind of misunderstood. It would be easier if we all just knew each other, I guess, because there are just some things you realize in person that you can't get off a screen.

If you come up with the word I should be using, let me know, okay? I could use some help communicating, lol!


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## jld

Threetimesalady said:


> I can say without any reservation that if I had been forced into giving my husband BJ's early in our marriage to keep him happy I would not be on this forum talking about what an awesome marriage that we have after 55 years...This is a part of me that I had to grow into....One more thing and that being we were hopelessly in love from the start...I would have followed him anywhere and I had dated many guys before him...Love between two people should grow...My husband is the key to our LTM (55 years) as well as I am...It takes this bonding that makes us grow each day and love each other more...We did not talk this out, we simply knew we could not live without each other...(As a side note he turned Catholic while he was in the Navy and surprised me with it when he came home before we married)...As for me, I would have married him if he was any Religion...and still would...He owns my heart and soul...
> 
> I do not believe that a woman owes her husband sex as part of a duty...I believe that two people owe this to each other...For this to happen they must be in want for each other from the start...We were and are and will always be...Our children are part of us, but we are the special hunger for each other that made this possible...As far as sex in the new marriages, this is a new world that we live in...Women are more hungry for a family and men are in short supply...This, too, will get worse...
> 
> I could never have done what you did...But then I am me and you are you....I love the fact in life that at this late age in life that we still have the passion and love that we found on our first date...Come to think of it, it is pretty wild and wonderful...
> 
> I wish you well with your son...Mine had cancer too...He is still watched...My best to you and yours...Caroline...


Congrats on your long, happy marriage, Caroline! (And what a beautiful name you have, too; we considered that for our daughter!)

You are right; we are all different. I have never seen my marriage as at risk, but I wonder if I have taken it for granted, considering everything I have read here. I sure don't want to lose it. My marriage is one of the very best parts of my life, and the most stable. 

It is easy for me to come here and talk about dh and how wonderful he is to me. It is really hard to go over to the leukemia boards. As a matter of fact, I won't do it. I am just too scared.

I wish your son the very best with his melanoma. I am sure cancer is scary at any age. And more and more people seem to be getting it . . .


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## jld

over20 said:


> Yes, I am shocked at the large number of sexless marriages there on on TAM. I think there are more men than women that are unhappy. Reading a lot of these forums have made me a better wife and helped me understand men a lot better. Some women though are selfish and won't change to make their intimate life better. They forget change begins with one. There is this sense of entitlement in their minds. IDK. They are really missing out though.
> 
> A good man is hard to find, but easy to keep!


Is that last line a proverb, lol?

You know, before starting to read marriage boards a few months ago, I had heard that there were sexless marriages, but it just seemed like some exotic idea to me. Then, on these boards, it just seems to hit you left and right. 

I love being close to dh. I love being with him, period. I just feel so much safer and so nurtured. He is like a big teddy bear whose lap I can always go and climb on, lol. He is always there for me. 

If we do have a disagreement, I have to resolve it right away, because I just can't stand a lack of harmony.

I am guessing that the women who don't want intimacy are not getting the kind of attention that they want/need from their husbands. And so they do not feel inspired to be physically close. And the guy is probably clueless.

But sometimes I wonder how hard the men are trying. Are they using active listening? Do they even know what it is? 

Women need to feel listened to and understood. Sometimes I think men think, "Well, I did listen to her. I put the mute on during the commercial and she said . . ." 

I just think if a man meets a woman's emotional needs, he is more likely to get his sexual needs met.

But women just make their own lives harder by holding out. What is the point of that, anyway? Is it a power game? How long can we be unhappy before one of us gives in? That is the part I don't get. Who has the energy for power games?


----------



## jld

Coffee Amore said:


> I think I could dominate a man who was too soft, so to speak.
> 
> .


I don't have a dominant personality. That is just not me at all. Shoot, that's what dh is for, lol!

It sounds like you have a good marriage, CA, and SA, too. I think all of us with happy marriages probably have more in common than we realize.

I talked more with dh about this topic last night, and we both just still agree that a man's commitment is fundamental to a family. I wish I could remember what he said, but it was something like he thinks men have lost their understanding of what it is to be a man. He sees a lack of maturity and willingness to take responsibility in a lot of men. 

We have known a lot of women over the years who have basically been on their own with their kids, even if they are married. We both feel bad for them.

Well, I guess we won't solve society's problems in one thread. And it does look like dh and I are almost alone in putting the responsibility for a family on the man's shoulders.

We used to live in India, and I don't think this idea would seem strange there. The part about meeting a wife's emotional needs and helping her heal from an abusive past would, though. And forget the idea of doing it all through unconditional love!

A guy who worked for my husband over there said that if you look at a family, you could tell what kind of a family it was by the father. He said that if the character of the father was good, the whole family was good. 

I know that sounds sexist to us in the West, but it did make me think. My dad had a bad character, and we certainly were a dysfunctional family. Meeting and partnering up with dh was a 180 in my life. And our family life is so different than what I knew growing up. My kids are confident and stable. They are so lucky.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *Coffee Amore said*: *I would find someone who is overly loving and completely selfless toward me, a doormat. I'd feel smothered too if he "bathed me in love". I'd want someone who has some backbone and spine. I have a fairly strong personality. I think I could dominate a man who was too soft, so to speak.*


 It's good to know how we would respond to other personality types.....there are reasons we are attracted to what we are...we may not understand it ...but a chemistry is at play.... I would say compatibility here is essential. It sounds you and husband are pretty even keeled then, I assume.... many are like this...and it works well ....
Regardless of our differing strengths & Weaknesses or differing personality types (like Choleric vs Phlegmatic / Sanguine vs Melancholy for example)...so long as both feel "Respected"...it can work well... 



jld said:


> *I don't have a dominant personality. That is just not me at all. Shoot, that's what dh is for, lol!*


And here...your husband is the more dominant personality.... this is very common....and works tremendously well when the husband is an *Honorable MAN*....he doesn't abuse his power or might but uses it for the good of his family... How does one not have the greatest & highest adoration for a man like this.... which is exactly how you feel ...the appreciative adoring wife ....

Flip this over....the female having a stronger "take charge" personality (more dominant) hooking up with the tipped Beta male (his being pretty laid back, mild tempered, the more passive personality)- this would more so describe our marriage... even though rarer... this too , can work when the woman is physically attracted and fully *Respects* her husband.....if these 2 plummet, however, things could take a down turn....

I want to say this as well... I think due to my feeling *humbled */ not wanted by my Step Mother in my teen years....wanting to verbally lash out at her , but I held it in (I'm not stupid)... I hated her and how she made me FEEL inside...

Because of this.. I feel I had a greater appreciation for those who showed kindness to me, *the softer personalities*...and I would never hurt someone like that..so when he entered my life, giving me his time, his attention, treating me with the utmost care .... I did lap that up, it fulfilled something in me that I was missing at home...



> *jld said*: *A guy who worked for my husband over there said that if you look at a family, you could tell what kind of a family it was by the father. He said that if the character of the father was good, the whole family was good.*


 Like this quote....









Still for some....the children may be so dismayed by their upbringing...they turn completely against the example set to not be like a parent.. .. We have a guy friend....he talked to us about his father being an Alcoholic, wasting his life...hurting his family......he vowed to never drink because of his upbringing ...he treated his wife very loving...they raised 2 daughters together....he never drank... he learned from his Fathers mistakes... 

This may be the rarer side of the coin...but thankfully some step away from the bad examples set before them.


----------



## over20

Who has the energy for power games?


jld, this point is spot on!! I know I sure don't and it can turn a sweetheart into complete Bixxh! I knew a woman like this and she made her complete household angry!!

I also want to share I am a big Dr. Laura Fan and have all her books. My favorite one is "The proper care and feeding of husbands" It was great!!

Blessings!

:noel::noel::noel:


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## jld

SA, I have read a bit about your life before you were with your dh. How painful. I am so sorry. I really wish your father and stepmother could have been a loving, nurturing presence in your life. 

What a different experience your own children are getting.


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## jld

And, SA, I really like that picture and quote you put up. 

You wrote something the other day that I think you deleted. You said that if you know you are with a good guy, what is the risk?

I think that is so true. If you are with an honorable man, as you say, it is safe to trust him. And the kids benefit so much from his great example, and genes, lol!

I have wished countless times that my dad had been like dh. My kids have no idea how lucky they are. Ds14 told me recently he would like to have a marriage like ours. Somehow that just seems like some kind of success, lol.


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## jld

Threetimesalady said:


> After thinking this over and comparing our life and where and who we are now I believe the most important thing is being happy with yourself......


I think you are right. Dh cannot solve my confidence problem. He can love me and talk to me about it, but I have to learn love myself on my own.

These boards really help. Just seeing all the different struggles that people share so openly and honestly about is healing. I hope someday I can share some of my struggles, too. I really admire the courage of people here.


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## jld

over20 said:


> Who has the energy for power games?
> 
> 
> jld, this point is spot on!! I know I sure don't and it can turn a sweetheart into complete Bixxh! I knew a woman like this and she made her complete household angry!!
> 
> I also want to share I am a big Dr. Laura Fan and have all her books. My favorite one is "The proper care and feeding of husbands" It was great!!
> 
> Blessings!
> 
> :noel::noel::noel:


Especially when we could use our energy to post here, instead!

I am not very familiar with Dr. Laura, though I have heard the title of the book. I am glad you have found it helpful.

I really like Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. It is not specifically a marriage book, but I think it could help marriages.

Again, glad you have found helpful resources!


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## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *SA, I have read a bit about your life before you were with your dh. How painful. I am so sorry. I really wish your father and stepmother could have been a loving, nurturing presence in your life. *
> 
> What a different experience your own children are getting.


In the scheme of things, looking back, I really believe my teen years had it's purpose...one that served me very well....to groom me to be OPEN to a guy like my husband... if you missed it, he sucked with women, was shy, had glasses, dumped twice....gave up on girls pretty much... but he had a lot to give..

I just wanted to be Loved.. sounds pathetic I suppose.. but hey... I even prayed for a Guy like him!.....he was there for me in every way-it wasn't just about lifting my dress ... it was HIS LOVE that won me over...I knew he was the REAL Deal.. not a fly by night. 

Had I remained with my Mother, I could have turned out rather BAD...Miss Attitude.... she gave me no discipline at all, and I was a mouthy BRAT - I needed my mouth washed out with soap....Yes, this is the truth... once my dad got a hold of me, that was the END of that... I learned discipline and consequences...

I get along great with my Step Mom & Father today.....she sat in my kitchen not long ago ...mushy moment..... even got a crack in her voice saying she's always thought of me like her own ...Did I realize how much she thought of me.. NO...but it was expressed that day....It felt good... and that we mended those fences all those yrs ago ....she has been a great wife to my father, I am thankful for that. 

They are responsible for me being more responsible, being careful to contemplate my own future.. as I was vulnerable even then...yet it all worked out for good.

*I bet even your own circumstances , and difficult childhood, ex relationship ...played some hand in WHY / HOW you were open to this good man- your husband ?? * 



jld said:


> *You wrote something the other day that I think you deleted. You said that if you know you are with a good guy, what is the risk?*


 Yes, I deleted my 1st post ...as I was questioning your feelings.... it was before I realized you was married for 20 yrs..I didn't want you to take it the wrong way as the posts was unfolding, I seen you were truly happy, no need for those questions. 



> Ds14 told me recently he would like to have a marriage like ours. Somehow that just seems like some kind of success, lol.


Our oldest had told me this..... my husband has commented that he hopes we haven't set our kids up for unrealistic expectations. 

Our 16 yr old & GF has been together over 2 yrs, if they last, it will be a younger love story than ours...but still , what are the chances....only time will tell. 3rd son took his 1st heart break very very hard ("the 1st cut is the deepest" so they say)... he has thrown himself into music , started a band...and getting an attitude... he looks like a bad boy but deep down, he is very sweet, the most like his Father in temperament even.....

He's got some new girls clawing ..... I am kinda enjoying that..I think he needs the ego boost... but he is JADED, doesn't want to go there again...kinda like his dad was before he met me..



> *over20 said*" *My favorite one is "The proper care and feeding of husbands" It was great!*!


I needed that darn book when I first got married, I used to listen to her program on the air, I would get a charge out of some of her responses, she could be ROUGH...one of those..you either love her or hate her...I enjoyed her. 



> *jld said:* *I really like Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. It is not specifically a marriage book, but I think it could help marriages.*


One of the BEST....you are obviously a reader with much to offer here jld... Go girl! I mentioned that book in a post not too long ago....this has the 7 listed (even though it was for teens)...


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## jld

I am so happy you have been able to forgive your parents and stepmother for not being there for you in the way you needed them to be, SA. You are much kinder than I am. I struggle with forgiveness.

You know, discipline really is a gift, isn't it? We don't think so at the time, but we appreciate it later. Or at least that's what I tell my kids.

What is wrong with wanting to be loved, my friend? Isn't it what most of us want? 

I felt kind of guilty the other day when that poster asked me if I didn't have any goals, and didn't I care if I did? Geez, I felt like a loser, lol. But my main goal in life is to be devoted to dh and the kids. Everything else is optional.

It's funny what you said about praying for your dh . . . Dh told me that when he was 14, he started to pray every night that God would send him a wonderful wife. This continued until he was 26, when he met me. He told me the night he met me, he stopped praying.

Lol, your dh sounds like mine. Dh and I were both shy with the opposite sex, and we both wear glasses, lol. Shy guys of substance are diamonds in the rough.

Did I mention that we met by renting rooms in the same house? Lol, who needs a dating service? Dh moved into the room across from mine, and six weeks later, we were sharing my room, lol. A month later we had our own apartment.

It sounds like both you and I really needed the stability our guys brought to our lives. I feel like I still need it, lol. 

I am much stronger now than I was 20 or even 10 years ago, but I still need to improve. Guilt just overwhelms me sometimes. 

I am noticing that other women on these boards have the same problem. Maybe women are just like this?


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## jld

I am from an unhealthy family. My dad was an absolute dictator, and my mom completely passive. Add in the Catholic religion, little money, and ten older siblings, and you get . . . 13 dysfunctional people.

It is really sad, all the stuff that went on. Just the atmosphere was, and is, unhealthy. The whole family needs to be transparent and face up to all the bad stuff that went on and was hidden or justified. But people are prideful, so it will not happen.

I brought transparency to my relationship with dh, and he brought stability. I was like a bird with two broken wings, so that stability was greatly appreciated.

You know, the first several months of our relationship, I talked to dh for hours every day about all the hurts in my heart. He just listened and listened. Finally, after about five months, I asked him wasn't I wearing him out with all that talking? He told me, "You are a 100 watt bulb, and I am a nuclear power plant."

I did not fall in love with dh, though he did for me. The first morning I woke up with him, he was watching me. Just lying next to me, studying me. He told me he had been watching me for 1/2 an hour. 

I definitely felt attracted to him, but everything had gone so quickly, and I was still traumatized by the previous relationship. I think it was all just too fast for my head. But I knew he was a quality guy, and I was determined to give the whole thing a good effort. Practical here, lol.

You know, I have felt guilty many times about the lack of falling in love part. In some ways it was more like an arranged marriage, lol. I desperately needed emotional stability (it sure had not come with my family, lol) and I just had the feeling he was a very good person. I made a choice to love him, and that love has grown.

One thing that helps our marriage is that I genuinely respect my dh. He is very smart and has a very good character, and that is an aphrodisiac for me. I genuinely look up to him. I could not be married to someone I could not look up to. I mean, what would be the draw?

One poster here said that some women marry a man based on his personality. I guess that means if he is fun? That sounds risky. I guess if the woman is really strong, that is okay. But when she starts to have babies and she's up all hours of the night, she might reconsider what was important . . .


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## jld

I hope I don't get criticism for this, and it is probably just you and I still reading this thread anyway, lol, but dh has probably been two parts husband, one part father to me. I was always so scared of my own dad, and then ashamed of him. I really needed a dad like dh.

My counselor says I idealize dh. Dh says the same thing, and reminds me of his faults. I know his faults, but I think I just have a lot of gratitude for him, and so maybe it is hard not to focus on the good things? But she is urging me to recognize his faults, and recognize my own strengths.

When you read the stories here, don't you worry for your own kids? I tell the family some of what I read and we discuss it. 

I think it is great that your third has thrown himself into music. It is so important to have a passion in life. And yes, you and your dh have set a high standard. But you want your kids to see that as normal. Then they will know what feels right as they make their own relationships.

Fun chatting with you, SA. And I am really enjoying reading the threads you linked. I hope you and your family have a Merry Christmas!


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## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *I am so happy you have been able to forgive your parents and stepmother for not being there for you in the way you needed them to be, SA. You are much kinder than I am. I struggle with forgiveness.*


Forgiveness doesn't always mean inviting the person who hurt us back into our lives (that depends)..... nor does it come easy ...if it comes too easy, without new boundaries.. reconciliation, I would even question if it was true.. but masked...

I am a bookalolic... I feel this is the best author for this subject...



> The Art of Forgiving: Lewis B. Smedes: Books
> 
> If you are ready to make peace with those who have hurt or betrayed you, there can be no finer road map than this thoroughly practical book. Lewis Smedes brings true forgiveness, "Gods own gift," within the capacity of every wounded person, even in circumstances when only hate seems possible. With inspiring words, he leads you through the three stages of forgiveness and helps you understand:
> 
> Why we forgive (often the person who benefits most is the forgiver)
> What we do when we forgive (perhaps not what we expect)
> Whom we forgive (only those who directly wrong us)
> How we forgive (we start by owning our pain)
> 
> Using many dramatic examples drawn from life, this wise author illuminates, step by step, the healing path to peace and freedom.














> *What is wrong with wanting to be loved, my friend? Isn't it what most of us want?*


 Deep down , I do believe this is true.. In this very wonderful book >>
The Gifts of Imperfection: Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are: ...author Brene Brown says *>>*









... "After collecting thousands of stories , I'm willing to call this a FACT: A deep sense of love and belonging is an irreducible need of all women, men and children. We are biologically, cognitively, physically, and spiritually wired to love , to be loved, and to belong.

When these needs are not met, we don't function as we were meant to. We break. We fall apart. We NUMB...We ache...We hurt others. We get sick. 

There are certainly other causes of illness, numbing and hurt, but the absence of love and belonging will always lead to suffering." 



> *I felt kind of guilty the other day when that poster asked me if I didn't have any goals, and didn't I care if I did? Geez, I felt like a loser, lol. But my main goal in life is to be devoted to dh and the kids. Everything else is optional.*


 Right now your son needs his Mother around.. you are where you are supposed to BE...sounds you Home School your children ..... YIKES - that is A LOT going on a Mom's plate...What are your hobbies ...your gifts... What brings you joy outside or being a Mom/ wife... that others have complimented you on? Here may be some view into what else you can offer/ those future goals...I see you was a High school teacher too ! You have skills- beyond just being a SAHM...



> It's funny what you said about praying for your dh . . . *Dh told me that when he was 14, he started to pray every night that God would send him a wonderful wife. This continued until he was 26, when he met me. He told me the night he met me, he stopped praying.*


 Oh WOW...that is so ...touching....and the way he handled it all... it's like "he KNEW"... I don't know that many would understand this... but I find it very inspiring.... When our smallest was just a boy, I taped this beautiful song I caught on a christian program...on VHS...about praying for the little girl who would someday became the future wife of a son... I still have it somewhere...just never forgot it, what you said made me think of this song again....I wish I could remember the name of it.



> Lol, your dh sounds like mine. Dh and I were both shy with the opposite sex, and we both wear glasses, lol. * Shy guys of substance are diamonds in the rough.*


 I've always believed that..I had our DJ play He's So Shy  at our Reception.... always loved that song... even though your husband was shy, from what you have said, he is also Dominate... sounds he has a good mixture then...he just needed to warm up & get to know you 1st... Mine is just more quiet until he gets to know someone...there is a difference between shy & Introverted... I didn't always know this..



> I am much stronger now than I was 20 or even 10 years ago, but I still need to improve. * Guilt just overwhelms me sometimes. *
> 
> *I am noticing that other women on these boards have the same problem. Maybe women are just like this?*


 I see what you are saying about the Guilt now.. when you said "I have felt guilty many times about the lack of falling in love part. In some ways it was more like an arranged marriage" ...also I know you mentioned you have struggled with "confidence" issues for over 20 yrs...

Can I ask you something... Have you ever taken any temperament tests.. I am thinking you may be primarily a Phlegmatic temperament...easy going, laid back, on the passive side...usually more introverted....one of the weaknesses... they struggle with confidence.. so does the Melancholy temperament... You can read the differences here...we are all a primary mixture of 2 , so they say...

The 4 Temperaments Comparison - Melancholic /Choleric/ Phlegmatic /Sanguine

So long as you DID fall in love with him, you aren't trying to replace him as your father, but a LOVER, a husband, your heart is not pining for another... there is nothing to feel guilty about ! 

Now Granted.. sometimes when women who don't feel the passion as much as the man, but stay with him cause he is NICE/ good to her...there for her... maybe he rescues her (I can see you feel this way, I did to some extent myself but I feel your situation was WAY worse over mine- from the things you have expressed here)....

Sometimes after all that love & care, the woman regains her confidence back... on her feet emotionally, she then gets bored with the husband....and realizes she was not in touch with herself, but NOW she is & could have done better...this happens in some relationships... every situation is different.. 

Even in the Book "*No More Mr Nice GUy*"...it says many times these men go after "project women"- it makes them feel needed , wanted to rescue a woman in trouble... this could turn bad for them if the woman uses that, or the feelings are not returned..but they ARE returned, so you can let this go.  




> *I am from an unhealthy family. My dad was an absolute dictator, and my mom completely passive. Add in the Catholic religion, little money, and ten older siblings, and you get . . . 13 dysfunctional people*


 I bet you had NO desire to have a lot of kids.. I was an only child - why I wanted a larger family, I did envy larger families, but the ones I knew were not terribly dysfunctional but pretty close and a lot of Fun. 

I think we all speak out of our experiences, my Step Mom had 12 siblings, or maybe it was 13, I lost count!... she was the oldest and did a ton of babysitting, she had NO desire whatsoever to have a large family or kids, she had enough of THAT growing up... then me, I felt lonely, wanted those darn sisters & brothers/ bunk beds , a little chaos........I hated being an only child... Why I wanted my kids to have that experience...

A good father is paramount for a larger family [email protected]# 



> Y*ou know, the first several months of our relationship, I talked to dh for hours every day about all the hurts in my heart. He just listened and listened. Finally, after about five months, I asked him wasn't I wearing him out with all that talking? He told me,* *"You are a 100 watt bulb, and I am a nuclear power plant."*


 I love that :smthumbup:... I wasn't sure I got the meaning, so I read this comment to our oldest -he got it immediately how it would be impossible for you to wear him out, his having near infinity power as the Power Plant... 



> *One poster here said that some women marry a man based on his personality. I guess that means if he is fun? That sounds risky. I guess if the woman is really strong, that is okay. But when she starts to have babies and she's up all hours of the night, she might reconsider what was important*


...I kinda look at it this way... I wouldn't want to be restless with a a man, we have to have enough in common to ENJOY being together, loving it...... when it comes to FUN... I feel when 2 "click"...that chemistry is at play ...(no way to predict this, it just IS or isn't there)....the FUN begins... my husband was never the life of the party type...but when we get together... it just works... I roar at his dry humor the kids do too... and honestly I don't like some people's humor, I think they are obnoxious...



> *My counselor says I idealize dh. Dh says the same thing, and reminds me of his faults. I know his faults, but I think I just have a lot of gratitude for him, and so maybe it is hard not to focus on the good things? But she is urging me to recognize his faults, and recognize my own strengths.*


 YOu have him on a Pedestal ... Gratitude is good but it does need balanced with our imperfections..We all have faults and miss it... 

Ever see my imperfection thread here.. I put many quote in this...that I felt those deeply in love could relate to, it's not about a pedestal but yes, gratitude for the Good, but still recognizing the bad.. and it's OK.. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...t-but-beauty-can-found-our-imperfections.html

One of the quotes I have on there >>

  







   



> *When you read the stories here, don't you worry for your own kids? I tell the family some of what I read and we discuss it*.


 We DO discuss many things here.. We also don't shield our kids from stuff on tv, etc... we teach them critical thinking on a variety of subjects....and we hope they will be resilience....cause bad does happen, but what can we learn from it and carry with us... how important this is....and to have healthy boundaries with others ... I don't worry too awful much, we have 18 yrs to instill within them the tools to make good choices .... then it is their turn..to take their own wings...


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## jld

Thanks for those book recommendations, SA. I just put them on hold at the library.

Well, I speak French and Spanish. I do not have a degree in French, but dh is from France, and so I have been hearing it for the last 20 years. We lived there twice, too, so that helped. I like teaching foreign languages, and I could let people know I am willing to give lessons. 

But mostly I am here for my own boys. We are at Children's Hospital regularly, and I of course I am running the kids to stuff, so there are things to do. I know you know all about that.

What is the difference between shy and introverted? Dh is an INTP. He went to CO for leadership training last summer, and he took that test. 

OK, I just looked up the difference. I guess dh is introverted. He is not scared of people. He just does not need interaction like I do. Thanks for bringing that difference to my attention.

And thanks for that personality test, too. I am definitely melancholy. I am so sensitive. I really want to toughen up. 

On these boards, for example, I want to just say what I think without worrying if it is correct. It is not even sure there is a correct answer to some of these problems, you know? We don't know one another, and a message board is a really incomplete, imperfect medium. I think people who respond mean well. They cannot always have the perfect answer.

I guess the whole falling in love thing depends on how you define it. To me it means you are always looking into one another's eyes and cannot think about anything but the other. I certainly felt attracted to dh, but more than anything I could not believe my good luck in finding such a stable guy. Ever practical me, lol.


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## jld

I talked to my daughter a little about my posts here, and she said I am not describing things very well. She said that her dad is stable and secure, and so to her mom, naturally lacking in these areas, that meant love. To someone who was already stable and secure, there would have been no draw to dh.

And the whole dominant thing--how does one define that? I know I am not dominant here. I could not stand having that kind of responsibility. But dh is not overbearing in any way. He knows I rely on him, and, however out of date it is, I really consider him responsible for this family.

But if he were ordering me around, there would be words, lol. The way I see it, he is our leader (because I am just not going to carry that load--saw that movie too many times in the lives of my sisters), for the good of the family. We all have to work together here.

Like your marriage to your dh, my marriage just works. Who really knows all the reasons why? Obviously we are meeting each other's needs, even if we don't know what they are.

What everyone is saying about compatibility must be true. If you are with the right person, maybe it all just works.

Okay, I will have to read that imperfection thread. You have so many good ones, SA!

And thanks for asking me those questions. I have had to think about things and try to express them, however imperfectly. We learn so much not only from reading, but from writing. Thanks for giving me that opportunity.


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## jld

To Sandfly:

You know, maybe I am too hard on the guys here. It is the place for them to come and vent and ask questions. (And why are you here, Sandfly? You do not seem to have the usual problems these guys do.). I am just kind of surprised by the things I read. Aren't you?

I mean, when someone wants to leave you, like you said, you let them go. You don't chase them and beg them to come back, or use how many tech devices to spy on them, or stuff like that. You respect yourself, value yourself, enough to say, Woman, if you can't see what you have in me, _vas-t'en!_. And then you go on with your life. And if she crawls back to you, you really consider what you want to do with her.

You know, when I first started reading marriage boards, about 3 months ago (stumbled onto one while looking for something completely unrelated), some guy was talking about how after your wife has an affair, and while you are reconciling, you should not give her gifts for a year. 

Give her gifts? Wow, I thought. I never get gifts! Okay, not entirely true. Dh gave me an iPhone 5s today. (I lost my cell phone, a discard of dh's from a decade ago, I think, two months ago, and he wants me to have one. Apparently the one he bought me is the simplest one to use, and so now I might have a chance of actually learning to retrieve messages on it.) And I know one time I got a book for Mother's Day. And in twenty years together, I have gotten flowers a handful of times. And I have been a faithful wife!

I just wondered where these guys were getting their ideas on how to treat women.

The truth of the matter is that you, Sandfly, are right on. Women want/need a friend (especially one that listens, really listens), a father, and a lover. Who gives a flying fig about gifts! My dh pays my bills. I have not earned a paycheck of any size in nearly 19 years. That is the gift!

I am just not sure why men have to be taught all this stuff. Apparently a lot has changed since my dad's time and now. Nobody had to tell my dad what it was to be a man. And he was not even a very good one, lol!

Why don't these men take charge of their lives? And their women? Why do they make their wives carry the load? Do men not realize a woman is already doing a lot just bearing and raising kids? To my dh, that is a full-time job. He does not expect me to also earn money. But now, and for the last forty years, women are just expected to do it all.

Really, most of the problems these men have could probably be solved by active listening, basically really listening to what the woman has to say and repeating it back to her, so she feels like you understand her. That right there would open a woman's heart to her man. 

The other thing they need to do is set limits. If the woman is feeling listened to and understood, and I am sure you are a master at this, she will be open to his limits.

A woman has to be able to respect her man, or she will not want to be with him. Being scared of her will never win her respect, but if he is scared, it will show.

Do you think maybe men are scared because they don't do hard things anymore, like fight wars? Just a thought. Not that we want wars.

Well, these have been kind of random thoughts, just what I was inspired to write. Stick around the site, Sandfly, and keep subtly teaching all of us with your questions (you thought-provoker, you!) and your sense of humor. Your intelligence is appreciated.


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## committed4ever

Hey JLD and SA I lovedvreadjng your exchanges. Although JLD I dislike your thoughts about religion on the other thread and this one I understand ehy you have them. I just a babe in the wife gamev(28 years old married 8 years) but so far so good. I love reading about successful marriages that last a long time its very helpful. And SA have become one of my fav posters. 

Im now a SAHM with my first an almost 3 month old. In a lot of areas a lot of my thinking is more like the 2 of you than anyone.

anyway just wanted to tell you that I enjoyed reading your posts.


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## jld

Hi, committed4ever. Thanks for your post!

Feel free to share your thoughts on what what you disliked, or anything else. We can all learn from each other.

SA is just wonderful. So honest and insightful and warm--such a mother, lol!

You are a busy lady with a 3 month old. Are you nursing? Are you getting any sleep? 

Do you enjoy being home with the baby? 

I had my first in 1995, before the internet, and I was so lonely. And I had PPD. What a difficult time.

What would you say you have learned about marriage, with 8 years in?

Thanks again for posting!


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## Sandfly

Dear jld,

Thanks for expanding on your ideas. I am here to learn, though I keep getting the urge to post.

As you say, some of the things I read are sooooo incredible that I too just can't help responding sometimes.

I don't chase anyone who goes astray, I'm a natural 180 person... but it does make me sad all the same. This is really why I am here... to get over the sadness. Give her gifts for a year? Well, I dunno, I would just trust my gut on things... but I guess the point is that these guys can't trust their instincts.

About work... in the last two seven year relationships, my partner got a promotion or generally started saving big money. As a co-incidence, it has been when I'm between jobs... and the love they 'discover' is the boss at work... funny thing is, they both asked my permission to start hanging out with the boss (!), and I refused them it... made me laugh to be honest... they think that men are all stupid. I just start lifting weights and saving my own cash and cut them off sexually... I suppose perhaps, that pushes them over the boundary... but as I see it, they don't need another man for friendship. I don't play games at all. But I'm still sad about it. That a bit of money and success can turn a woman's head so easily. I'm sad to say that although I have always been a believer in women's equality, I no longer believe that wives in the workplace is a good idea, because they cannot be trusted around older authority figures. Am I wrong?

None of the following is judgement. I'm just offering 'how it looks': Men are scared because they lack certainty in their lives. Scared is the wrong word though, 'lost' or bewildered is it. Men don't always have a practical trade they can fall back on, they work in offices where position depends on manipulation rather than effort... this is an alien world for them. They don't know what to do with a wayward wife and kids: you're not supposed to hit them or punish them, if you split with the mother you lose the kids and pay for the ex-wife's new apartment and her new boyfriends till the kids are all 18. Then at work, they could come in at any moment during a busy period and announce that they are pregnant and simply go off work. Often they go off sick for a week or ten because of family emergencies. In the UK, you don't even have the right to any details. You have to keep her job open when and if she returns. And how do you deal with a woman bullying another woman at work?
So they don't know what to do with themselves. This makes cancerous ideologies like Islam and Evangelism so attractive, because it offers certainty. For the same reason, some of our peers are grasping for certainty in the Constitution, in Army regulations, in 'Alpha-male' how-to guides, in marriage vows. And false certainty is what sells marriage etc to a man. Why don't they take charge - take charge how? Islam is coming to the US, maybe it'll take 50 years or 500, but when the constitution and Jesus can't provide hard rules, they'll eventually turn to the strictest thing they find. This is the attraction men have for authoritarianism, and it affects me too. I've been an atheist, a Muslim, a protestant, a communist, a believer in white supremacy, all opposites, but equally providing a complete and reassuring world-view - so I recognise the attraction in all these things. But I never stopped doubting and enquiring, that's the key. But all my need for reassurance stopped when I stopped fearing death, and started treating both the bad times and good times alike as (pointless) 'adventures' instead of tests. Death will just be another adventure, I'm looking forward to it in fact !! 

After all, jld, what is 'certainty' but another word for *confidence*! 

I've got off track here, I apologise. Random thoughts, as you say, but they reveal more than a carefully constructed script designed to persuade, like on the guns thread.

I think you and your husband sound really happy. A wife who wants to stay with her kids... what a treasure that would be to so many lost souls on these boards... that's all they wanted out of marriage, not an ambitious second earner! 

Question for you now: how do we prevent the fanatics taking over and ruining it for us independent thinkers?


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## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *What is the difference between shy and introverted? Dh is an INTP. He went to CO for leadership training last summer, and he took that test.*












I have read a bit about this particular temperament due to another poster here - and he fully admits he is not the emotional type..but from all you have said about your husband, he doesn't sound like he struggles there, you sound HAPPY...it says this about his type...


> INTP relationships and dating | 16 Personality Types
> 
> Even though romantic relationships and dating are inherently difficult for INTPs, people with this personality type take them very seriously. The main problem that INTPs are likely to face in this area is that they are not naturally sensitive or emotional individuals – consequently, understanding another person’s feelings or expressing their own is not something that an INTP is well equipped to do....
> 
> Another potential issue that someone with the INTP personality type should try to resolve is their tendency to overlook their partner’s emotional needs. As already mentioned above, INTPs are not naturally sensitive or emotional, but their partner might have a very different personality – it is important for an INTP to try to understand their feelings and communicate on the emotional level, instead of simply relying on commitment and dedication and believing that this is all that is needed. Of course, their partner should also be aware of INTP personality traits and quirks, and try not to demand constant flow of emotions from the INTP.





> *Jld said*: *OK, I just looked up the difference. I guess dh is introverted. He is not scared of people. He just does not need interaction like I do. Thanks for bringing that difference to my attention*.


 Yes, this is exactly it.. my husband is introverted too and I am more extroverted, I ENJOY more social interaction over him... I get energized by it -he could care less.... in his view, he could live on an deserted island with just us and be happy... I would get bored with that..when we go somewhere, he'd choose to sit by the exit sign... sometimes I want a little more interaction with those around me. 



> And thanks for that personality test, too. *I am definitely melancholy. I am so sensitive. I really want to toughen up*.


 I am secondary Melancholy... it has it's Strengths too.. FAITHFUL, of all the temperaments, this one keeps it's word till death...deep thinkers, usually artistic, song writers (weakness can be the most depressed)...have perfectionist tendencies...this can be good and bad... we do our best can count on us for a thorough Job.. but on the other hand.. we may be so discouraged cause we think we can't do it to our own standards..and never take a risk, putting ourselves out there! 



> *On these boards, for example, I want to just say what I think without worrying if it is correct. It is not even sure there is a correct answer to some of these problems, you know? We don't know one another, and a message board is a really incomplete, imperfect medium. I think people who respond mean well. They cannot always have the perfect answer*.


 Even if a poster reads 10 posts and out of those, only 1 he resonates with, and gets something he can carry with him, it was worth the effort. ..we never know if OUR experience could shed some relateable light.. so if we enjoy sharing of it... it's like throwing seeds to the winds I guess... 



> And thanks for asking me those questions. I have had to think about things and try to express them, however imperfectly. *We learn so much not only from reading, but from writing. *Thanks for giving me that opportunity


Imperfectly... we can communicate and be misunderstood at times....Yes, in writing itself, it can almost be like therapy... so I have found.. when I have gotten steamed over something, mad at a friend, a relative, a contention between me & the husband.. something troubling me but can't find the words or fear I will screw it up....trying to find that peace/ understanding again.....

I always sit down and start writing ... it can be grueling at times ... I may want to lash out -the delete key is very necessary! - -knowing that will not solve anything but cause a defense....

But as we write out our feelings...we can get a handle on our motivations, where we need to GO -to make it right or to bring resolution, at least from our END...that is all we can offer...... some of these letters may never get sent, but they worked their magic within... 



> *committed4ever said*: *Hey JLD and SA I lovedvreadjng your exchanges. Although JLD I dislike your thoughts about religion on the other thread and this one I understand ehy you have them. I just a babe in the wife gamev(28 years old married 8 years) but so far so good. I love reading about successful marriages that last a long time its very helpful. And SA have become one of my fav posters.
> 
> Im now a SAHM with my first an almost 3 month old. In a lot of areas a lot of my thinking is more like the 2 of you than anyone.
> 
> anyway just wanted to tell you that I enjoyed reading your posts.*


 Committted4ever ! You know I hold a candle for some of the Stay at Home Moms who just enjoy taking care of their families, this being their greatest Joy or -let's say Reward down here.. but how important it is to marry a good man we can put our trust into ....... 

I want to say a word or 2 about beliefs...although we may share different ones/ different denominations, faiths... I have found in life, no matter who I have run into, I've always felt we had more in common ....if we can just set aside our creeds....but look to the every day stuff...what we all desire for a happy life... how to be treated, ya know. For instance....in Christianity alone...there is reported to be approximately 41,000 denominations... Can you imagine! 

List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia...then on top of that there is all these differing ways to interpret -which can cause further division or the faith that it was all handed down correctly through the ages .. I studied this once... for myself.. I think the Bible can be seen in a variety of ways...not just one of these...



> 1. *Literal*: The Fundamentalist view
> 
> 2. *Historical Docoment *
> 
> 3. *Midrash:* Jewish Rabbinical approach to interpretation sought to understand the literal, and then expand the teachings to contemporary issues. "light to heavy"
> 
> 4. *Pesher*: Exegetical method that suggests the prophetic writings contain hidden eschatological significance, or divine mystery. Jesus used this method on several occasions. (Lk 4:16)
> 
> 5. *Allegorical:* Assumes the text has a meaning other than what the literal wording says---- a parable is a short allegory with a Moral meaning. Allogories are often used in Literature.
> 
> 6. *Typological:* seeks to discover a correspondence between people and events of the past and of the present or future. Matt. 12:40 - Jesus parallels the experience of Jonah with his own death. Moses was a type of Christ, who brought the people out of bondage, and was rejected by his own. Isaac when he was offered up by Abraham.
> 
> 7. *Christological*: Firstly, Jesus, and then the writers of the New testament had a decidedly Christocentric approach to Bible interpretation. Old testament passages were viewed in light of the new knowledge they now had about the person and work of the Messiah.
> 
> 8. *Functional*: Fitting scripture into current day context, disregarding the historical context


----------



## jld

Sandfly said:


> Dear jld,
> 
> Thanks for expanding on your ideas. I am here to learn, though I keep getting the urge to post.
> 
> As you say, some of the things I read are sooooo incredible that I too just can't help responding sometimes.
> 
> I don't chase anyone who goes astray, I'm a natural 180 person... but it does make me sad all the same. This is really why I am here... to get over the sadness. Give her gifts for a year? Well, I dunno, I would just trust my gut on things... but I guess the point is that these guys can't trust their instincts.
> 
> About work... in the last two seven year relationships, my partner got a promotion or generally started saving big money. As a co-incidence, it has been when I'm between jobs... and the love they 'discover' is the boss at work... funny thing is, they both asked my permission to start hanging out with the boss (!), and I refused them it... made me laugh to be honest... they think that men are all stupid. I just start lifting weights and saving my own cash and cut them off sexually... I suppose perhaps, that pushes them over the boundary... but as I see it, they don't need another man for friendship. I don't play games at all. But I'm still sad about it. That a bit of money and success can turn a woman's head so easily. I'm sad to say that although I have always been a believer in women's equality, I no longer believe that wives in the workplace is a good idea, because they cannot be trusted around older authority figures. Am I wrong?
> 
> None of the following is judgement. I'm just offering 'how it looks': Men are scared because they lack certainty in their lives. Scared is the wrong word though, 'lost' or bewildered is it. Men don't always have a practical trade they can fall back on, they work in offices where position depends on manipulation rather than effort... this is an alien world for them. They don't know what to do with a wayward wife and kids: you're not supposed to hit them or punish them, if you split with the mother you lose the kids and pay for the ex-wife's new apartment and her new boyfriends till the kids are all 18. Then at work, they could come in at any moment during a busy period and announce that they are pregnant and simply go off work. Often they go off sick for a week or ten because of family emergencies. In the UK, you don't even have the right to any details. You have to keep her job open when and if she returns. And how do you deal with a woman bullying another woman at work?
> So they don't know what to do with themselves. This makes cancerous ideologies like Islam and Evangelism so attractive, because it offers certainty. For the same reason, some of our peers are grasping for certainty in the Constitution, in Army regulations, in 'Alpha-male' how-to guides, in marriage vows. And false certainty is what sells marriage etc to a man. Why don't they take charge - take charge how? Islam is coming to the US, maybe it'll take 50 years or 500, but when the constitution and Jesus can't provide hard rules, they'll eventually turn to the strictest thing they find. This is the attraction men have for authoritarianism, and it affects me too. I've been an atheist, a Muslim, a protestant, a communist, a believer in white supremacy, all opposites, but equally providing a complete and reassuring world-view - so I recognise the attraction in all these things. But I never stopped doubting and enquiring, that's the key. But all my need for reassurance stopped when I stopped fearing death, and started treating both the bad times and good times alike as (pointless) 'adventures' instead of tests. Death will just be another adventure, I'm looking forward to it in fact !!
> 
> After all, jld, what is 'certainty' but another word for *confidence*!
> 
> I've got off track here, I apologise. Random thoughts, as you say, but they reveal more than a carefully constructed script designed to persuade, like on the guns thread.
> 
> I think you and your husband sound really happy. A wife who wants to stay with her kids... what a treasure that would be to so many lost souls on these boards... that's all they wanted out of marriage, not an ambitious second earner!
> 
> Question for you now: how do we prevent the fanatics taking over and ruining it for us independent thinkers?


Hi, Sandfly. Dd was in the room when I read your post, so she read it and then dh did, and I thought they had some good suggestions:

1. Find a project. It sounds like you may be out of work. I have heard unemployment is bad in Britain. In America, we tend to think that anyone who wants a job can get one, but I know it does not always work that way. If you are unemployed, could you find volunteer work? You want to keep your mind busy, so you do not have all day to think sad thoughts.

Take a good inventory of your talents. You have a good sense of humor, you are smart, and you are a good listener. Add to the list and see what you can do with that.

2. This one is from dh, and it is going to hurt . . . Do not make excuses. Dh says not to blame the bosses of your girlfriends for why they left. Really be honest with yourself about why it happened, and try to learn from it. He also said not to blame the women at work for things, and try not to feel jealous of them. Dh just does not accept much criticism of women from men; he says women have difficulties in life men do not realize.

3. Do not have a defeatist attitude. Dh says you need to be positive about your situation and future. Focus on what you can do to make it good. Do not cry over the past. And take a break from women. Get other things right first.

Okay, that was the gist of what they said. I hope it helps.

Some thoughts from me now, lol.

We cannot stop cheating or divorce by keeping people out of the workplace. Controlling people just does not work. 

My dh travels all over the world and is gone most of the time. I do not make any efforts to control his interactions with anyone, or to check anything. I do not think it works, anyway.

Okay, like usual, I was probably a little tough on the guys in my posts last night. Maybe they really cannot take charge. Maybe they should just focus on active listening and compromise. I get, though, that sometimes it does not work and divorce is the chosen path. 

You know, I am not a counselor. I am just a mom with a good husband. But we were just lucky to find each other, and maybe I should not hold men to a standard they may not be able to meet.

It is humbling to read the posts and see all the problems people have. I do not have the answers. I do think it would help if the economy were better. They say the best social program is a job.

Have you gone on the NMMNG forum? Those guys really help each other. You might want to try it.

I think a lot of men would like to be married to an ambitious second earner! Staying at home, like SA said, is just dying out. My own dd is studying engineering and plans to work full-time. She wants to be financially independent and own her own business. No more than two kids, lol. Different strokes for different folks.

Dh says we do not have to worry about being overrun. There will be challenges, he said, but even in Muslim countries they do not like Al Qaida. And he has heard that evangelical churches are losing members.

It is really good to accept death. We all have to. But I think you have a lot of life to live first.

I am sorry I cannot help more. Again, google NMMNG. Those guys really try to help each other. And it is all men, which is probably helpful.

One last thing: I think that if you are going to look for help in books, I would avoid those alpha male books. Character books have more payoff, I think. Seven Habits of Highly Effective People is excellent for getting your life back on track.

Keep the faith, Sandfly. We all pass through difficult times. Believe in yourself. Know that you have much to offer the world. Sometimes we just have to trust that good things will happen.

If nothing else, think about how it could be worse. When my dad was 35, he had a wife and nine kids. And one day he got his arm cut off by a corn picker. For 8 years after that he farmed one-handed. Can you imagine? 

Best of luck!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> 2. This one is from dh, and it is going to hurt . . . *Do not make excuses*. Dh says not to blame the bosses of your girlfriends for why they left. *Really be honest with yourself about why it happened, and try to learn from it. *He also said not to blame the women at work for things, and try not to feel jealous of them. Dh just does not accept much criticism of women from men; he says women have difficulties in life men do not realize.
> 
> 3. *Do not have a defeatist attitude*. Dh says you need to be positive about your situation and future. Focus on what you can do to make it good. Do not cry over the past. And take a break from women. Get other things right first.


Self Awareness  written all over these 2 points... 



> We cannot stop cheating or divorce by keeping people out of the workplace. Controlling people just does not work.
> 
> My dh travels all over the world and is gone most of the time. I do not make any efforts to control his interactions with anyone, or to check anything. I do not think it works, anyway.


 Gone most of the time... Oh jld.. this would be very difficult for me.. Once husband was going to take a Truck Driving Job over the road, we decided against it... it would have been more $$ but we both would have missed each other terribly... we decided a long time ago , our time together is very valuable to us...I'd much rather work a full time job & us see each other every day -if it came to needing more $$....



> Okay, like usual, I was probably a little tough on the guys in my posts last night. Maybe they really cannot take charge. Maybe they should just focus on active listening and compromise. *I get, though, that sometimes it does not work and divorce is the chosen path.*


 Some people really aren't compatible... my Father & mother wasn't.... what a train wreck... they literally had nothing in common...When people meet, there is a time frame of 18-20 months that can be like a whirlwind... infatuation even... if it lasts longer than THIS..a couple has gotten over the stage that often blinds....Hot sex can cause us to overlook red flags, we'll be quick to make excuses for those little things...as we feel so "in love" / bonded with someone...best to always give it the test of TIME...with conflicts along the way ...knowing *how* each deals with arguments/ fights -how to resolve...HUGE....before marrying. 



> Keep the faith, Sandfly. We all pass through difficult times. Believe in yourself. Know that you have much to offer the world. Sometimes we just have to trust that good things will happen.
> 
> If nothing else, think about how it could be worse. *When my dad was 35, he had a wife and nine kids. And one day he got his arm cut off by a corn picker. For 8 years after that he farmed one-handed. Can you imagine? *


WOW...did this start your dad down the path of ANGER ... you have mentioned he was not a good father in many ways.. but in other ways, how can you not admire his work ethic here....

My husband's best friend growing up...came from a family of 8..... his buddy's dad worked driving Truck for repairing roads, I can't remember what happened to him ( husband is not here to ask) but he lost his arm too -early in their marriage even... he kept working, and I think he even had part of his leg taken off (must have been an accident)...he used a fake one/ always had a limp...this man had some trials [email protected]#$.... 

But he kept working & supported his family, they kept him... and you didn't get into a fight with him either... that one arm could take anyone down I guess/ there were stories (he did his share of drinking).....he even looked mean...the perseverance of some..it is an inspiration really... they DO what they have to do...they find a way.


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have read a bit about this particular temperament due to another poster here - and he fully admits he is not the emotional type..but from all you have said about your husband, he doesn't sound like he struggles there, you sound HAPPY...it says this about his type...
> 
> 
> Yes, this is exactly it.. my husband is introverted too and I am more extroverted, I ENJOY more social interaction over him... I get energized by it -he could care less.... in his view, he could live on an deserted island with just us and be happy... I would get bored with that..when we go somewhere, he'd choose to sit by the exit sign... sometimes I want a little more interaction with those around me.
> 
> I am secondary Melancholy... it has it's Strengths too.. FAITHFUL, of all the temperaments, this one keeps it's word till death...deep thinkers, usually artistic, song writers (weakness can be the most depressed)...have perfectionist tendencies...this can be good and bad... we do our best can count on us for a thorough Job.. but on the other hand.. we may be so discouraged cause we think we can't do it to our own standards..and never take a risk, putting ourselves out there!
> 
> Even if a poster reads 10 posts and out of those, only 1 he resonates with, and gets something he can carry with him, it was worth the effort. ..we never know if OUR experience could shed some relateable light.. so if we enjoy sharing of it... it's like throwing seeds to the winds I guess...
> 
> Imperfectly... we can communicate and be misunderstood at times....Yes, in writing itself, it can almost be like therapy... so I have found.. when I have gotten steamed over something, mad at a friend, a relative, a contention between me & the husband.. something troubling me but can't find the words or fear I will screw it up....trying to find that peace/ understanding again.....
> 
> I always sit down and start writing ... it can be grueling at times ... I may want to lash out -the delete key is very necessary! - -knowing that will not solve anything but cause a defense....
> 
> But as we write out our feelings...we can get a handle on our motivations, where we need to GO -to make it right or to bring resolution, at least from our END...that is all we can offer...... some of these letters may never get sent, but they worked their magic within...
> 
> Committted4ever ! You know I hold a candle for some of the Stay at Home Moms who just enjoy taking care of their families, this being their greatest Joy or -let's say Reward down here.. but how important it is to marry a good man we can put our trust into .......
> 
> I want to say a word or 2 about beliefs...although we may share different ones/ different denominations, faiths... I have found in life, no matter who I have run into, I've always felt we had more in common ....if we can just set aside our creeds....but look to the every day stuff...what we all desire for a happy life... how to be treated, ya know. For instance....in Christianity alone...there is reported to be approximately 41,000 denominations... Can you imagine!
> 
> List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia...then on top of that there is all these differing ways to interpret -which can cause further division or the faith that it was all handed down correctly through the ages .. I studied this once... for myself.. I think the Bible can be seen in a variety of ways...not just one of these...


Thank you for both of your posts yesterday, SA. I feel bad not to be more helpful to Sandfly. It is just really hard to have the answers for someone else's life, I think.

You know a lot about personality types! You really know a lot about relationships, period, lol!

Dh said that during the training they were told that there are 24 levels to each type. So while my dh is an INTP, you probably would not know it if you saw him with people. And he has no trouble taking charge in a social setting. But he, on his own, does not need much social interaction.

I need more than he does, but not a lot more. I think I may be an I, too. I have read the descriptions and I just don't think I am an E. Right now I think I may be an INFJ or an INFP. Dd is a strong INTJ, and ds14 is ENFP.

You know, I am a little intimidated by the strength of character and intelligence of dd and dh. They are almost always right on things. And they have such confidence in themselves! No second-guessing for them.

Dd and ds14 had a conflict yesterday. Dd wanted to read a book of ds's, and he did not want to lend it to her. He also does not like to lend books to ds11 (another INTP, I think). Ds14, like me, is emotional, and he started to cry when I told him I had bought the book and whoever wanted to read it, could. It is called The Death Cure -- apparently a popular book.

Ds14 is insecure about himself. Dd and ds11 are so smart, so math and science and technical, and so sure of themselves, and I think ds14 and I are kind of in awe of that. We feel like we are always dealing with people more capable than ourselves.

They are certainly nice to us (they are secure people), but ds14 and I, being emotional people, get shaken easily. It is easy for us to feel inadequate. And even though they tell us there are things about us that they admire, it just never feels like the talents around here were distributed equally. 

So, this, along with the fact that ds14 and I are insecure people, kind of leaves us feeling like we are just not good enough.

For example, last night when dh and dd read some of my posts, dh told me I should not be putting personal details into my posts. He said it is not safe to do that. Dd was sitting there, nodding. I felt so dumb, like I should have known that. And they really do not understand why I am here, anyway. They have no interest in forums. And why would I, they said, want to go on one where people have problems?

Well, I just felt so dumb. Like what is the matter with me for wanting to have contact with other people? And trying to offer advice or encouragement when I am not a trained counselor? I mean, just their mild comments made me feel so inadequate. I take criticism so personally!

You know, it is not like I can run everything I say or do or think by them first. I do listen to them, and removed some details. And I will be careful in the future. But I feel so stupid that I had to be told these things. And I have long felt that my dd is way smarter and certainly more mature than I am. Just like with dh, people everywhere we have lived have praised her to me to the hilt. And I really am proud of her. But it is just who she is, and she does not give a darn about whether people praise her or not. She just cares what she thinks about things.

Ds14, otoh, would love to get the admiration she does. Yesterday he sarcastically called her the goddess of wisdom we should all consult with before we do anything. Dh and dd just do not understand at all why ds and I are so insecure.

Okay, dh is waking up. I will be back later.


----------



## jld

It is amazing what a relief it is to write these things out. And I hope someone reading this feels like, gee, I am not alone, she feels this way, too. 

I have had so many times when I have looked up something on the internet, and found that someone else felt that way, too! Very comforting, to know we are not the only one, at least to me.

Thanks so much, SA, for linking that test. I feel like I could my name on just about every sentence in the Melancholy description. Me to a T, lol. Thanks again.

I think you have the right attitude about trying to help people. We really just care. That is really what we are offering, along with some helpful links sometimes. We cannot really know everyone else and every detail of their situation. Communication can just be so incomplete sometimes. I hope that just knowing that people are trying to help them makes people feel better, even if no one can really solve their problem.

Yes, dh is home fewer than ten days a month. I do miss him. I like being with him. And it is really different without him. He is looking into getting a foreign assignment so that we can live together again. But that will take at least a year, and maybe longer.

But he loves his job, and yes, the pay is great. He just was not happy at his old company, and just landed a great opportunity a year and a half ago. He really wondered if we should move with him, but I was nervous. He had only ever worked for the first company, and if things did not work out, I did not want to be stuck out in the middle of a rural area in a small city. We are near a major metro area, and it would be easier to find a different job in a bigger job market. And the housing market is not good in our area, and so we would not have gotten the money out of the house that we have put into it. So the kids and I stayed here, and he comes home every weekend (6 hour drive one way).

What we did not count on was all the foreign travel, and how he would need to be away some weekends. 

But really, I think it has made us appreciate each other even more. I don't think we have ever had big problems, but I do think couples can start taking each other for granted without realizing it. That is why these boards are so good for me: they make me appreciate what I have, and inspire me to be more giving. And they give me an outlet. I just cannot talk about some of these things IRL.

I think you make excellent points about being sure about the person you are marrying, and not rushing into it. But sometimes I think dh and I broke all the rules, but it still worked out. I mean, we hardly knew each other when we moved in together. And we had some conflicts early on. Here is an example:

One Saturday, the first week or so that we were in our apartment, we walked to the grocery store and dh picked out some red cabbage and carrots for a salad. The French like to eat it as an entree (starter course in French, not main dish like in American English). I picked out some donuts.. 

So we went home and dh got out the grater and started grating everything in the kitchen. I sat down at the table and ate both of the donuts.. When dh had finished and brought the salad over, I admired it. He started to put out plates for us and I told him I had already eaten. He realized I had eaten the donuts and got mad. I didn't realize he even wanted the donuts. I had picked them out myself and he just seemed so focused on those vegetables.

He had this idea that we were going to eat together and I thought we were each going to eat our own thing. I told him I thought he did not even like donuts (French people can be kind of snobbish about food). He said, "Of course I like!" So I felt really bad and he could not believe how selfish I had been and what an irresponsible eater I was--donuts for lunch! So I went back to the store and bought him some donuts and threw in a card and a plant for good measure, lol.

You know, today he laughs about it and says he behaved immaturely, but you know, I did too.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *You know a lot about personality types! You really know a lot about relationships, period, lol! *


 I am an admitted Psyche enthusiast...people & our differences fascinate me, why we DO & act the way we do... Many yrs before I came here -I have said in my own mind if I had a Job...a







position would be tailor made for who I am... it wouldn't even seem like work...newspapers are dead, and who needs that today... the internet is full of Dear Abby's... I can see why I am addicted here... I get to play Dear Abby all day long..it's something I enjoy - dissecting relationship issues... a strange passion I suppose. And really, when we learn about others, we are learning about ourselves, it challenges our own thinking, I heartily enjoy that sort of thing. 

I've read a # of books on temperaments, helped me understand MYSELF...and why my own husband struggles in some areas...our struggles are near opposites but it makes sense learning how we are individually Geared. ... I didn't know that there are* 24 levels *to each type ..that is news to me! 

Out of one of these books (I have I & II)... Please Understand Me II: Temperament, Character, Intelligence...came this little saying which I've put on TAM a # of times...because too often we THINK everyone else feels like us.. and it's so NOT TRUE...we may think wildly different... it's good to keep this in mind when offering advice!


> "Different Drums for Different Drummers"
> 
> If I do not want what you want, please try not to tell me that my want is wrong.
> 
> Or if I believe other than you, at least pause before you correct my view.
> 
> Or if my emotion is less than yours, or more, given the same circumstances, try not to ask me to feel more strongly or weakly.
> 
> Or yet if I act, or fail to act, in the manner of your design for action, let me be. I do not, for the moment at least, ask you to understand me. That will come only when you are willing to give up changing me into a copy of you.
> 
> If you will allow me any of my own wants, or emotions, or beliefs, or actions, then you open yourself to the possibility that some day these ways of mine might not seem so wrong, and might finally appear as right--- FOR ME. To put up with me is the 1st step to understanding me.
> 
> Not that you embrace my ways as right for you, but that you are no longer irritated or disappointed with me for my seeming waywardness. And in understanding me you might come to prize my differences from you, and, far from seeking to change me, preserve and even nurture those differences.
> 
> I may be your spouse, your parent, your offspring, your friend, or your colleague. But whatever our relation, this I know:
> 
> You are I are fundamentally different and both of us have to march to our own drummer.





> They are certainly nice to us (they are secure people), *but ds14 and I, being emotional people, get shaken easily. It is easy for us to feel inadequate.* And even though they tell us there are things about us that they admire, it just never feels like the talents around here were distributed equally.


 You are both more on the "*Feeling"* side over "*Thinking*"...I am just guessing of course but I often think there is a sliding scale on all of these things as well.. when I take these temperament tests... half the time I come out a THINKER, then the other half I come out a FEELER many times an *X* (I am split down the middle)....



> *So, this, along with the fact that ds14 and I are insecure people, kind of leaves us feeling like we are just not good enough.*


 No, the feelers are just naturally more sensitive....realizing this fact and not allowing it to overwhelm you is a something to work on though.



> For example, last night when dh and dd read some of my posts, dh told me I should not be putting personal details into my posts. He said it is not safe to do that. Dd was sitting there, nodding. * I felt so dumb, like I should have known that. And they really do not understand why I am here, anyway. They have no interest in forums. And why would I, they said, want to go on one where people have problems?*
> 
> *Well, I just felt so dumb. Like what is the matter with me for wanting to have contact with other people? And trying to offer advice or encouragement when I am not a trained counselor? I mean, just their mild comments made me feel so inadequate. I take criticism so personally!*


 Well ...have you thought about it...what you may get out of posting here... I know you mentioned it is a "distraction" for you, dealing with sons's diagnosis. ...I could see how being on a Cancer forum could be very difficult in comparison....You know why I originally landed here, I had my reasons...then I just got sucked in...habits die hard... plus I enjoy the writing very much.









My husband has little interest in forums either, where I can write a book, he struggles with a sentence...but he encourages my gift...if I have any in this life.. they lie in my communication skills.



> You know, it is not like I can run everything I say or do or think by them first. I do listen to them, and removed some details. And I will be careful in the future. But I feel so stupid that I had to be told these things. And I have long felt that my dd is way smarter and certainly more mature than I am. Just like with dh, people everywhere we have lived, have praised her to me to the hilt. And I really am proud of her. *But it is just who she is, and she does not give a darn about whether people praise her or not. She just cares what she thinks about things*.


 Well if your daughter is getting praise from all directions, it would be easy for her to not really care, her cup is full...the need met... when you have something, you don't miss it, or even realize it's importance many times...

In comparison...our 4th son is very annoying, he likes to irritate everyone in our family for a pastime...you know what the sad thing is about him ... I believe his top Love Language is "*Words of affirmation"*.. and this REALLY REALLY SUCKS cause most of us majorly struggle praising him -cause he is so darn obnoxious ! I am constantly yelling at his brothers to NOT put him down.... so he doesn't get too much coming his direction....and how does this affect him....he cuts others down, especially his sister, always trying to ONE up himself... I can see this playing out all the time, but I refuse to Praise his behavior like that.. his dad has more patience with him over me...of all of our kids, I butt heads with him the most. 

Back to your husband & daughter...maybe they are not trying to understand YOU very much in this... what they ENJOY is not what you would enjoy....isn't this true...we all have our gifts in life.. maybe you enjoy writing too? 

A few of my husbands hobbies are not mine....one is lock- smithing...he could sit & watch you tube for hours watching videos on making Keys.. I would be pulling my hair out ....







Collecting coins... never really got into it... but that's ok, we encourage each other's interests...I'll praise him if he makes a home made key...I've asked him...what in the world are you interested in this for, do you want to Rob a [email protected]# He doesn't even really have an answer..figure that one...and I'll go to his coin shows with him...it's all good. 

The privacy thing...yeah, that's something you & the husband should be on the same page about though...hopefully he'll warm up to some of your differing interests & support you, even though he doesn't understand it.


----------



## jld

So there were conflicts, but they were not big. And I think we have just dealt with whatever life has thrown us.

One thing that concerns me, and I see it a lot on these boards, is that a lot of emphasis is placed on attraction. At the risk of appearing like the Amish woman I secretly am, I just think that is risky. I would really encourage people to look at the person's character, and, like you said, take time before marrying. 

But there again, dh and I married a year after meeting, and had dd a year after that. I think my family was horrified, lol. Okay, that is an exaggeration, but people did think it was reckless. But we did not care. It was our life, and we were going to do what we wanted. We were paying for it, after all!

And I think that is important, too: being able to be financially independent when marrying and having kids. We could never ask for help from our parents, and it would not have occurred to us. We knew what we could afford, and lived accordingly. We are so boring!

And yes, you are right to point out my dad's work ethic. He was a tough German Catholic. We had to kneel down every night to say the night prayer, and Dad did not have any problem coming into the living room, turning the TV off right as the show was coming to the climax, and crossing himself and booming, "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit . . ." And everybody immediately dropped to their knees, joining Dad. By the time the prayers were over, the TV show was, too, and you would have to ask your friends at school the next day how it ended. Lol!

Dad grew up on a farm, and life was never really easy for him. He became a salesman later in life, and he did like that -- a lot easier than farming. He won a trip to Hawaii a few times, and he and my mom loved that. Once he even got to take a couple of us kids along.

The problem with my dad is that he was insecure, and did not respect people, especially women. 

That is why it was a 180 to be with dh. Dh grew up on a farm, loved manual labor (my dad did not), naturally had technical skills (my mom told me my dad could not fix anything on the farm and always had to call for help), and is naturally calm and composed (Dad was so impatient and easily angered). 

You know, I cringe just remembering my dad. I just hate thinking about my life before dh. I grew up with all the wrong values and I do not know if I can ever really recover. That is why I cling to dh so much; I feel like he knows the right way to live and with him I will be safe. I can count on wise decisions that will benefit all of us. It is just so calming and reassuring. 

Geez, it is like a flashback to talk about my dad. Getting off that subject now.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> Yes, dh is home fewer than ten days a month. I do miss him. I like being with him.


 YIKES !







Fewer than 10 days a month...I can't even IMAGINE how difficult that would be....in 24 yrs married, the longest my husband & I have been apart is less than a week.. he had to go to another state for Training...that was nothing, a pebble of time in a bucket..

I think if you know something is just temporary , it can be lived with...but indefinite... Oh my.. I don't think I could handle my man being gone THAT much... I'd feel like a lonely desperate housewife... wouldn't like that at all. I need someone to hold on to at night. I'd get bored hanging with Girlfriends and kids. That's great you have the kids to keep you busy anyway...



> But really, I think it has made us appreciate each other even more. I don't think we have ever had big problems, but I do think couples can start taking each other for granted without realizing it. That is why these boards are so good for me: they make me appreciate what I have, and inspire me to be more giving. And they give me an outlet. *I just cannot talk about some of these things IRL.*


 Many who come here say THIS...what they share here is the only outlet they have.. Me .. I am a little different, anything I have shared here would be easy for me to share with a close friend, him.. I understand we ALL have issues...anyone who knows me in real life...if they found my posts here would say "Yep...that's ________" and not be a bit shocked by the things I say/ discuss. 



> He had this idea that we were going to eat together and I thought we were each going to eat our own thing. I told him I thought he did not even like donuts (French people can be kind of snobbish about food). He said, "Of course I like!" So I felt really bad and he could not believe how selfish I had been and what an irresponsible eater I was--donuts for lunch! *So I went back to the store and bought him some donuts and threw in a card and a plant for good measure, lol.*


 I'd say you REALLY handled that with style my dear... that extra measure - to bring a wide smile to his face ...and stomach ! 



> *You know, today he laughs about it and says he behaved immaturely, but you know, I did too*.


 Being able to laugh after the fact over some of our most unruly moments... it's very healthy !


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## committed4ever

jld said:


> Hi, committed4ever. Thanks for your post!
> 
> Feel free to share your thoughts on what what you disliked, or anything else. We can all learn from each other.
> 
> SA is just wonderful. So honest and insightful and warm--such a mother, lol!
> 
> You are a busy lady with a 3 month old. Are you nursing? Are you getting any sleep?
> 
> *Hi JLD yes I very busy with a 3 mo old but I love it and will love it even more when I can get over the constant state of sleep deprived. I love everything about being a Mommy even the difficult parts. Same for being a wife. I even love the challenge of keeping them both happy. *
> 
> Do you enjoy being home with the baby?
> 
> [B ]_I enjoy being with the baby so much. I still can't believe we have her. We try for 5 years and had given up._[/B]
> 
> I had my first in 1995, before the internet, and I was so lonely. And I had PPD. What a difficult time.
> 
> *I read about PPD on the new mothers web site that I'm on. I had no idea so many Moms suffer from it I can't imagine what that must have been like for you on top of the demand of a new baby. Did your H know what you were going through?*
> What would you say you have learned about marriage, with 8 years in?
> 
> *wow. Too much to list! We had no business getting married and shouldnt have made it. All odds were stack against us. But my H had this vision of family life even as he was living a bad lifestyle. He took no pleasure in it and regret to this day he lived it. But he was able to overcome it. So he was much more mature than me and I learned so muc from him. Tgat tge cliff note version. LOL*
> 
> Thanks again for posting!


----------



## jld

You are a great presence here, SA. Not only are you kind, but you have a lot of knowledge about relationships. You seem to be open to people and accept them how they are. 

That Drummer post is just awesome. I love that. I need to read that regularly.

It is great to be able to write here, isn't it? I am sure I am doing too much of it. It is like I am writing my life story now. Dh told me I should just start a blog. I guess I could look into that.

When I found these marriage forums, what really struck me was the honesty. I used to go on health and homeschooling forums, but they were never very personal. The homeschooling boards are very competitive, and I just felt like being there was bringing out the worst in me. I want to be kind to people, not annoyed and feeling like we are not doing enough. And the health forums are interesting, but impersonal.

And I have a problem with idealization, and I feel like the longer I am here, the more I am forced to be honest with myself. I read about someone and realize I have felt that way, too. Or I see someone hurting, and I want to give a word of comfort.

I am lonely. Dh is away most of the time, and though we skype daily, it is not the same. But even when he is here, he does not just talk to me all the time. Today he just exercised and is now eating lunch and then will teach some computer programming to the kids and then will go sledding. I would be perfectly happy just to read all day and make a couple posts here. I would love to just talk to dh, but with the kids, that is just not likely. And I do not think he or anyone can meet the seemingly never ending desire in me to have deep, meaningful conversations.

I used to talk to my daughter all the time, but this last semester she went away to college, and so I tried to make some friends in the homeschool group. I thought it was going well, and I have made two good friends, but I only see them occasionally. One works part-time and the other just always seems so busy. 

I joined a prayer group last year (I am not into organized religion, but I believe in God and thought the prayer group would be good). The leader's brother had the same kind of cancer ds had, and died the end of May. That was hard.

Then, last month, the leader said I could not come to the prayer group anymore because I do not believe the Bible is literally true. I guess they felt sorry for me before, but after giving me a year and I still have just this general belief in God, not the whole Bible belief, they decided I could not be in it anymore. I was so hurt. I mean, on one level I know the evangelicals can be like that, but I thought there was actual friendship, not just religious conversion intention.

So my neighbor told me to come to her church group, because anybody can go and you do not have to go to the church or believe in anything. I think they read a book and then just talk about their lives. I am going to try it out in January.

You definitely are gifted in communication skills, SA. You are not only kind, but you give good advice. The books and threads you link really can help people. Most of us are just offering our opinion, but you and others really have specialized help, it seems, that you can offer people. Some people sound like trained counselors.

That is so funny about your husband and the key making videos. LOLOL! And you are a real sport to go to those coin shows.:smthumbup:

Monday we went to a big art museum, just dh and I. I was really excited, because we went out for Ethiopian food first and I thought we would talk about the paintings and other things at the museum. But dh was just really intent on looking at the paintings and reading the little explanations and finally, in one gallery, I just sat down and started watching people. Dh came over and put his arm around me and asked if I was bored. I did not want to say anything because he was really into it, but I thought we were going to talk to each other while we were walking around the museum, not just study art. So he gave me his phone so I could read some posts here, lol. 

I am totally addicted!


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## Sandfly

Hello jld!

Thanks for the comments, and the insights from your husband and daughter. They both offer interesting insights. I will think in particular about what your husband said about not resorting to the control option. 

The particular circumstances of the longest relationships I have had were broken by the partner getting a promotion at work. The thief was the one who did the promoting, sat on the interview panels. I feel quite jaded that it was me who supported their work ambitions. 

No More Mister Nice Guy, I've never been a nice guy. The 'married man's sex life' book, I couldn't understand why they were recommending that. It was corny. 

I have put into practice De Angelo's book, and I found that the silly little tricks in it work, but it attracts the wrong sort of woman. I don't put any value in attracting the kind of woman who is so easily convinced by such blatant manipulation.

I guess the help I need is really how to get into the supervisors chair again, so that I can be a provider. 

But then I think: this will attract the wrong sort of woman. I've been a supervisor in two temporary positions before, and the way the women under me - usually married - became like moths to a flame, frankly made me ill.

I think I'll just spend a few years on my own, and not bother with women for a while. I think I have to find a farm girl. Maybe she is out there in the Cold Vastness of Canada or Russia. Maybe this is her:



Or... am I more likely to find this:



:smthumbup:


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## jld

Lol. I think that is a picture of dh's grandmother you have there. His mother's parents came to France from Poland right before World War II.

I'm sorry if dd and dh were kind of harsh. They are pretty hard on guys. Shoot, they're hard on all of us!

The economy is tough. Good luck with finding work you enjoy.

It sounds like you are avoiding the right books, and for the right reasons. It really is better just to become an all around better person. You feel better for yourself that way, and that can only be good for future relationships.

Thanks again for sharing yourself with all of us. It takes courage to be honest and open here. I am learning that myself!


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## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> It is great to be able to write here, isn't it? I am sure I am doing too much of it. It is like I am writing my life story now. *Dh told me I should just start a blog. I guess I could look into that.*


 I like forums more -because of the ongoing social interaction.. endless questions pouring in.... if you didn't get much traffic on a Blog....especially just starting out... it may seem like just you, yourself and nobody else.. I don't know...I would think they need a ton of advertising .... I think about it from time to time myself but I think I'd get bored...like I was just writing to myself... 



> *I am lonely. Dh is away most of the time, and though we skype daily, it is not the same. But even when he is here, he does not just talk to me all the time. * Today he just exercised and is now eating lunch and then will teach some computer programming to the kids and then will go sledding. I would be perfectly happy just to read all day and make a couple posts here. I would love to just talk to dh, but with the kids, that is just not likely. * And I do not think he or anyone can meet the seemingly never ending desire in me to have deep, meaningful conversations*.


 I think your situation would be very difficult.. so when he does come home, less than 10 days a month, he still has *his* stuff to attend to... I'd want to gobble up every second if I was you... and you can't do that...

I used to belong to a "Mops group" -when the youngest hit 1st grade, I graduated out of it...this met some of that "connecting with other women" desire some of us have... or what a church can provide... 

Many meaningful deep discussions here on TAM.. ..just jump right in...and you have !....if writing, sharing can help fill that void.. and help you learn about yourself in the process...hey, that's a good thing.. new Ideas to keep your marriage spicy...it's all good. 



> *Then, last month, the leader said I could not come to the prayer group anymore because I do not believe the Bible is literally true. I guess they felt sorry for me before, but after giving me a year and I still have just this general belief in God, not the whole Bible belief, they decided I could not be in it anymore. I was so hurt. I mean, on one level I know the evangelicals can be like that, but I thought there was actual friendship, not just religious conversion intention.*


 yeah..the dusting off the feet thing....it happens...this is why many just keep their thoughts & questions to themselves....why invite conflict....or the rejection.. imagine what it was like before we had separation of Church & State !











> So my neighbor told me to come to her church group, because anybody can go and you do not have to go to the church or believe in anything. I think they read a book and then just talk about their lives. I am going to try it out in January.


 I'd give this a try...sounds they are more understanding and look to the







over doctrine. :smthumbup:


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## jld

Thanks, SA. Yes, it is hard to have him away. It is like being a single parent. It is really a treat to have him around now for a week and a half. It truly is a Christmas present!

He mentioned to me the other day that he would love it if we went to church. I do not trust organized religion, so our kids did not grow up Catholic like dh and I did. But when dh said he would love to go to Mass, I decided I would make an effort to offer. So we went today. It is amazing how well we fit in at any church. Everybody thinks we are religious. Maybe it is because we are quiet and look wholesome, lol?

I think since we are together so little, I just want to make his time with us enjoyable. But conflict still happens. Sometimes we have to adjust to his coming back. The boys and I get used to just being alone, and then he is home for a weekend, and there is just a different dynamic. And sometimes, I have to admit, I feel a little resentful of his being away. But I know I should just be grateful, because he has a job he truly loves and that can support us.

I just feel like we have a responsibility to our family to do whatever needs to be done to keep the family as healthy and happy as possible.


----------



## jld

You sound like a great wife and mom, committed4ever. Your dh and dd are lucky to have you!

I hope the sleep will get better soon. I know it is hard. And I am so glad you finally overcame your fertility problem!

That is a great testimony about your husband overcoming his unhealthy lifestyle. It really is inspiring to hear how challenges have been overcome. I have a friend whose husband overcame his drinking problem by just emptying out all the booze one night. He has not touched it since, and that was several years ago. Go, him!

Well, the PPD was rough. I basically had no idea what it was to be a mom. I was almost 25 (dd born the day before my birthday), but I felt like a teen mom. I am the youngest of 11 kids, but was born long after the other kids-- an accident. So while I sometimes babysat my nieces and nephews, I was pretty clueless about the constant demands of a baby and nursing. 

My dh was pretty insistent I nurse, so I really tried to make it work. I had read that you should try to make it work, you should just make it work. But I did not realize how much work that can be! Terribly sore nipples and a baby that nurses almost around the clock, causing sleep deprivation, can make you almost lose your mind! I remember just wanting to get in the car and drive out to South Dakota, just anywhere far, far from the demanding baby. I felt like I was in over my head.

I had also hemorrhaged during the delivery, so I was weak.

And a significant factor was that I did not realize that dh was going to absolutely fall in love with the baby.

He held her all the time. He would come home from work and just want to look at her and hold her. I really felt deprived of his attention. And after being alone all day, I really wanted his attention.

Well, after about a month of little continuous sleep, I was considering quitting nursing. Dh was very upset about this, as he had a firm conviction that our kids would be breastfed. He left for work one day, and he told me on the way there he was thinking of arguments in favor of breastfeeding. Quite the intellectual, lol.

Well, he got home and sat down to talk with me about the importance of breastfeeding. I started to cry and told him that I had thought I was his special girl, but that now I felt like he only cared about the baby.

Dh got tears in his eyes (I had never seen that before and did not again until ds was diagnosed with cancer 14 years later) and said I would always be his special girl.

He also said he was going to start getting up with the baby at night.

And we moved dd from her crib into our bed, which really, really helped my sleep deprivation. It was like night and day.

So with putting her in our bed and his getting up from about 1 am until 3 am every night, just walking around while she screamed her head off because she wanted to nurse all the time, we made breastfeeding work.

And our boys were completely different from dd. They all slept like 3-4 hour stretches at a time, and would only nurse maybe 15 minutes every 3 hours or so. And they grew fine. So don't worry that subsequent children will necessarily mean sleep deprivation for you!


----------



## jld

So things got better with breastfeeding, but then I also had to deal with the loneliness of being a SAHM. This was all before the internet, lol.

It is so funny now, but I was so scared of dd. I was so afraid I would make a mistake, and she would be scarred for life. LOL. I remember thinking I always had to smile at her. And one time I caught myself forgetting and I had a moment of panic. And for how many months when she was an infant, I was really worried she didn't like me, because she was so picky and cried so much. Ridiculous, right? Way, way, way too emotional here. I was so scared she would end up like me and I did not want that, so I was trying to do everything different than my parents did.

Well, after about six months I went to counseling and we talked about the changes in becoming a mom and leaving the work force and also my self-esteem issues in being married to someone I thought was too good for me. I have always had this feeling about dh. Maybe being here will break it for me, though, as I feel like people are so honest, and being honest about why I feel this way, maybe being able to talk about it sometime, would probably help.

Anyway, so we are sitting there at the therapist's office and I am crying that he should have married someone better, and he is saying he does not feel that way at all. And she is trying to say something helpful. And I don't even remember what because when you are just so overcome with emotion, you just can't think straight and certainly cannot be rational.

Eventually things got better, but I have to admit that the whole time I had mostly little kids was rough for me. I felt it was my responsibility to do the best job I could, but I am not gifted with little kids. They require so much patience.

Sorry to babble on so much. I just remember that time of life as so very tiring, so very lonely. I did join a mothering group and that was good. 

Attachment parenting, like we did, really is very good, but it can just suck the life out of the parents.

Sorry to be such a downer. I know you are having a really good time, and that is wonderful. You sound like you are doing exactly what you were meant to do. Keep enjoying it!


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## Sandfly

Dear Jld,

This is just some musing only for you...

I was reading about your encounter with the evangelicals. I was also reading about how lonely it was to be left alone with a new born. This is a time where you were vulnerable, and you recognised it.

Regarding the evangelicals - including groups like the pentacostalists and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, they all have the same behaviour, so that it's quite predictable. They offer friendship almost from the first, and after about the third encounter the conversation turns to 'the literal truth of the bible'.

I have always found that they are good people, but nevertheless they are dangerous, and it's best to avoid them. They receive training in how to approach people, and how to deal with 'objections'. They call it 'missionary work' but in effect, it is sales techniques.

Evangelicals quickly turn angry. It's easy to turn them back into nice when you carry on grinning, unphased by what is a subconscious attempt to intimidate. The anger comes from the fact that their zeal to convince is really them trying to overcome their own doubts by convincing someone else. A person with true faith would just give up if someone was being 'unreasonable' because they 'know' what they say is true, and they don't need validation ...! 

Having the _same people _ using the same techniques and getting upset at being contradicted at both extremes, is what makes a joke of this left/right, godly/atheist, patriarchy/feminist division. 

I started going to a Trotskyist communist meetings at university, and I quickly realised it was a cult. Just as I had previously realised that Islam, white supremacy etc were cults where 'winning' was more important than achieving and progressing. If winning is the most important thing, then it follows that vindictiveness and 'ganging up' is OK if it leads to Triumph... winning comes above being factually right... yes! All people think they are 'good'... but good people with a 'mission' are dangerous! 

Anyway! What a lot of talking. I would only like to summarise by saying: I'm happy to hear that you never fall for the sales patter. You probably find the fanatics of all colours fun to mess with, as I do. Family ties are key, don't you think? Never choose others over family - all cults will try to get you to go off on 'camping trips' ("right wing"), 'demonstrations' ("left" wing) and 'teambuilding away days' (management do this in brainwashing companies) - or even the psycho girlfriend... they try to distance you from the people who really care about you and swallow up your individuality and your family loyalties!

I am worried about the US people - everything is 'left/right' 'Godly/atheist' 'patriot/traitor'... North Korea and the US are peas in a pod in this respect.


----------



## manticore

norajane said:


> Might you be selling yourself short here? You have contributed to the health of your marriage as well. Do you believe that you, too, and what you have done for your H over the years has also impacted your marriage?
> 
> As an example, you mention finances specifically...just because he has provided doesn't mean that your contributions at home aren't as valuable and necessary. What you have done is what has enabled him to focus on providing for the family.


well maybe is not that she is selling her short, maybe is that she is really in love with her husband (maybe more of what is reflected in her posts, where she suggest her husband loves her more than she loves him) and she sees it as if is her man the one who has been in charge of everything even if both are equally responsable for their succesful marriage.

lets be honest there are other women who have similar husbands but take them for granted and is their obligation to do what her husband is doing, that is the biggest difference, realize that is not an obligation but and effort to build a nice and lovely family with both parts involved.


----------



## jld

Sandfly said:


> Dear Jld,
> 
> This is just some musing only for you...
> 
> I was reading about your encounter with the evangelicals. I was also reading about how lonely it was to be left alone with a new born. This is a time where you were vulnerable, and you recognised it.
> 
> Regarding the evangelicals - including groups like the pentacostalists and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, they all have the same behaviour, so that it's quite predictable. They offer friendship almost from the first, and after about the third encounter the conversation turns to 'the literal truth of the bible'.
> 
> I have always found that they are good people, but nevertheless they are dangerous, and it's best to avoid them. They receive training in how to approach people, and how to deal with 'objections'. They call it 'missionary work' but in effect, it is sales techniques.
> 
> Evangelicals quickly turn angry. It's easy to turn them back into nice when you carry on grinning, unphased by what is a subconscious attempt to intimidate. The anger comes from the fact that their zeal to convince is really them trying to overcome their own doubts by convincing someone else. A person with true faith would just give up if someone was being 'unreasonable' because they 'know' what they say is true, and they don't need validation ...!
> .


Dh totally agrees with you that a lot of that missionary work is just sales techniques. It is sad to see it that way, but I think you are right and it is the truth. 

And I think that you are right that they are a danger. Someone like me, who is pretty isolated, alone at home with kids all day, and just a kind of wholesome middle-aged woman, can be talked into being friends just because our lifestyles are so similar. Then, when they find out I let my kids read Harry Potter, or when they read my daughter's FB page supporting gay marriage, they get scared. The friendship, if it survives, ends up feeling pretty conditional.

You are right to just stay calm and firm with them, and I am sure you make good use of your great sense of humor. But I really am a needy mom and so I have pursued friendships with other homeschooling moms even though I knew it was likely to end with my being rejected for religious reasons at some point.

You know what is really sad? I think we live a more "Christian" life than they do, but we don't wear the label. And we are the ones rejected. It is so messed up.

And as long as I am on a rant, let me just say that America was not always like this. I grew up in a rural Midwestern community, and I remember having evangelical friends growing up, as well as other Catholic friends and certainly mainline Protestant ones. And I don't ever remember it being an issue. Everyone just respected one another and kept out of each other's business. I do not ever remember anyone trying to convert me or making comments about Catholics. Now America is just crazy divided.

I love homeschooling, and I think it is really great for kids, but in some ways, at least, it is a sacrifice for the mother.

I have to tell you, dh can't stand evangelicals. He told me he almost feels bad about it, because he feels like it has become a real prejudice of his. He told me the other guys at his new job are always kind of puzzled by him, because he is an upstanding guy, very polite and intelligent, hardworking, with a homeschooling SAHW and 5 kids. But he never talks religion, so they can't quite figure him out. He says he can't wait until one of them tries to convert him, lol!


----------



## jld

Sandfly said:


> Having the _same people _ using the same techniques and getting upset at being contradicted at both extremes, is what makes a joke of this left/right, godly/atheist, patriarchy/feminist division.
> 
> I started going to a Trotskyist communist meetings at university, and I quickly realised it was a cult. Just as I had previously realised that Islam, white supremacy etc were cults where 'winning' was more important than achieving and progressing. If winning is the most important thing, then it follows that vindictiveness and 'ganging up' is OK if it leads to Triumph... winning comes above being factually right... yes! All people think they are 'good'... but good people with a 'mission' are dangerous!
> 
> I am worried about the US people - everything is 'left/right' 'Godly/atheist' 'patriot/traitor'... North Korea and the US are peas in a pod in this respect.


Gosh, your point about the division between right/left, etc. is very good. I tend to think the right is just a deluded group, but dh is always telling me I need to try to keep more of an open mind. Okay, he thinks they're deluded for the most part, too, but he says that doesn't mean everything the left says is good. And when I can be honest with myself, I know that is true.

Socialism in France was really helpful to dh. He went to college for free. There was never a question that anyone would not get the medical or dental care they needed. Everyone lived decently.

But socialism can make people passive. It can make them too submissive. Spending time in America, and, especially, leaving the French company he worked for for so many years, was liberating for dh. 

French people have a tendency to reject out of hand something they don't know, something their society does not do, like homeschooling or veganism. And they miss out on a lot because of that closed mindset.

Boy, you really did it all in college! You really checked everything out, lol. And now you know better than to believe in anything. Or at least to believe in it without questioning.

I wish I had been that openminded and smart. I grew up Catholic and Republican, and then became an evangelical in college. As I learned more, I leaned away from the Republicans and started questioning the Bible.

Then I took a class on discrimination, and we had a section on homosexual discrimination. I had to read a reverse questionnaire for heterosexuals. One of the questions was When did you decide to be heterosexual? I looked at that and thought, what? I never decided to be heterosexual; it is just what I am.

And then I realized that that is how it is with gays, too. That is just how they are. And then the scales really started to drop from my eyes. I realized that the Bible was not true, and it was like my eyes just opened. I called my lesbian sister's partner that night and apologized for not having accepted their lifestyle before, and for having been critical of them. I stopped believing anything the Republicans said. I started, slowly, to get mentally and emotionally healthier. I was not stuck in faulty thinking anymore. 

But I took it too far and dropped too many of the moral teachings I had grown up with. And I just couldn't handle it. I am too sensitive.

So I realized that while the Bible is not literally true, there is still a lot of good stuff in it, like the Golden Rule, and the Ten Commandments. And I just love the teachings that came directly from Jesus, like telling people who have no sin to cast the first stone. What a humble, truly kind man.

Last comment on your last section: Dh says he is not worried about the US. He is more worried about Europe. I am not sure what that means but I will ask.


----------



## jld

Sandfly said:


> Family ties are key, don't you think? Never choose others over family - all cults will try to get you to go off on 'camping trips' ("right wing"), 'demonstrations' ("left" wing) and 'teambuilding away days' (management do this in brainwashing companies) - or even the psycho girlfriend... they try to distance you from the people who really care about you and swallow up your individuality and your family loyalties!
> .


Are you close to your family, Sandfly? I am not. I am close to dh and my children, and I really work hard with active listening to keep our relationships healthy. I want everyone here to feel loved and respected. And for us, active listening seems to do that the best.

My siblings seem to have a lot of money, or are at least willing to spend a lot more than we are. 

A few years ago my sister planned an expensive wedding shower for our niece. We had always had wedding showers in our homes, but for that niece, she had rented a room in a very expensive hotel.

The problem was that not everyone could afford to attend. I mentioned this to my brother, and his wife (the mother of the bride) sent me an e-mail saying it did not matter if everyone could attend.

Now, I was in India, so I was not going to attend, but I felt bad for the other people. My brother made a fortune in technology, and it was his daughter getting married, so I think my sister thought she had to make that particular niece's shower really expensive.

So I sent out an email asking my siblings if our family had become an expensive social club that not everyone could afford to belong to anymore.

Well, my brother and his wife were furious.. And frankly, so was I. What kind of family plans family events that not everyone can afford to attend?

Sister tried to smooth it over, saying that she was planning to do a similar shower for all the nieces when they got married.

After lots of nasty e-mail exchanges, and much crying and not sleeping and not eating on my part, dh suggested I leave my family. There are manifold reasons for this, not just what I have described, but I really took what dh said seriously. I just could not bring myself to leave completely, though. So we have been on a 4 year "break" instead.

And it has been great.

Dh was just commenting on how peaceful it is without all the fights from my family. It's true.

So I am not sure I agree with what you said about family loyalty, but maybe you just meant my own family, dh and the kids? Yes, I agree with that. I really try to respect them and listen to them and make them feel valued.

Hope you wanted to read this novel this morning, lol.

Oh, yeah, and one more thing: A few months after my rich brother's daughter's shower, my unemployed, divorced brother's daughter announced she was getting married. Guess where the shower took place?

At my sister's house.


----------



## jld

manticore said:


> well maybe is not that she is selling her short, maybe is that she is really in love with her husband (maybe more of what is reflected in her posts, where she suggest her husband loves her more than she loves him) and she sees it as if is her man the one who has been in charge of everything even if both are equally responsable for their succesful marriage.
> 
> lets be honest there are other women who have similar husbands but take them for granted and is their obligation to do what her husband is doing, that is the biggest difference, realize that is not an obligation but and effort to build a nice and lovely family with both parts involved.


Hi, manticore. I read your story on another thread. I am sorry your dad cheated on your mom. I bet her heart was broken, and that is why she couldn't be kind and helpful to you. I hope you will be able to heal from it.

I hope there are a lot of husbands like mine. There are so many hurting women in the world, and they could heal if they had a truly loving, self-sacrificing man in their lives, I think. They could learn to trust again. I really wish every woman had that in her life.

Thanks for your post.


----------



## jld

I've just come from the arguing thread by asladain on the general board, and I would like to share some of my experiences of arguing with dh, because I think it could be helpful. At least it is a different way to deal with a wife's anger.

I have not had a temper tantrum in about 3 years, but from about 27-40, I had at least one a year, I would guess. I don't remember all the reasons for them, but basically I would get mad at dh and start yelling, and then throw in some bad words and some names. Sometimes he would yell back, but not much, and not every time. Usually he would just stand there and look at me. Sometimes he would tell me to change my tone of voice. Then I would just get madder and scream louder.

Usually after a minute or so, I would just give up and go throw myself on the bed. After some time, maybe a few minutes, maybe longer, dh would come in and lie beside me, or even rub my back. He would start to use active listening. "You are really mad. You really want such and such, and you are mad that I don't want it, too," or whatever the thing I was mad about was.

I didn't respond right away, but within some minutes, I would calm down and start to talk, and maybe even turn toward dh so he could hold me. When I was calm, he would quietly explain why he did not agree with the thing I was upset about. Sometimes we could find a solution, and sometimes we just had to leave the issue because there really wasn't a solution (I hated living in India, but we felt we could not leave, for example).

These times always ended with my apologizing to dh for what I had said. I was very specific, not only apologizing for the bad words and names, but for screaming, too.

Dh never mentioned the tantrums when they were done. It was as though it had never happened.

The first one I remember was when dd was about 2. We were at my parents' house and I got mad at dh for something. I called him some choice names and went in my parents' room to cool off. 20 minutes or so later I was ready to apologize.

We went for a walk and I told dh I was sorry for what I had said, and would he please forgive me? 

He told me, "Whatever you do, it is already forgiven."

I felt absolutely covered by love. I understand that not every woman wants to feel covered in love, but I found it incredibly peaceful and healing.

Another time I remember getting mad and threatening divorce rolleyes: yes, I was being ridiculous; anger just makes me completely illogical). I said, "If we get divorced, I get half of everything!"

Dh calmly responded, "You deserve everything."

Well, that was the end of that angry outburst. There was nothing to do but go to him and tell him I was sorry for being so mean.

And then there was the time that my brother decided it was his place to scold me for talking disrespectfully to my dh (he happened to call right after I had gotten mad at dh, and I vented to my brother about it). I listened to my brother, mentally blew him off, and then told dh what he had said when dh got home from work. I was feeling kind of guilty and thought I would let dh get after me about it if he wanted to.

His response? "I hear your words, but I know your heart."

Again, I felt just bathed in love.

It has been a while since I have had a temper tantrum, maybe 3 years or so. I brought it up a few months ago and apologized again to dh. It has been a long, long time since I have said bad words or names to him, and I don't plan to ever do it again. I hope I have put a mental gate on that activity. That is really not the wife I want to be, and I am sorry I ever was.

Dh noted it had been a long time since I had done that, and that it must just have been a stage in my development, now over. I felt kind of silly hearing that, but I really am grateful he doesn't hold those times against me.


----------



## RoseAglow

Hey JLD, I am not married very long, only 5 years, so I usually just lurk here. I responded to another one of your threads on the General board, I thought I remember seeing this one here.

I don't think that the man is more of a key to success that the woman- both need to be committed I believe- but I have read in Marriage Builders that it requires more work for men than women to have a successful marriage. Women tend to be more relationship-oriented than men, so men have to put in more effort, to make the changes needed to maintain a happy, successful LTR. 

Have you read any of the Marriage Builders books? His Needs, Her Needs is a classic, as well as Love Busters. You might enjoy them, I am a fan of Dr Harley.


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## jld

Hi, Rose. I haven't read the book in its entirety. 

I haven't read a lot of marriage books. I really like Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, though. I think it can be helpful to marriages, and to many other relationships.

Thanks for your comment.


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## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> Usually after a minute or so, I would just give up and go throw myself on the bed. After some time, maybe a few minutes, maybe longer, *dh would come in and lie beside me, or even rub my back. He would start to use active listening. "You are really mad. You really want such and such, and you are mad that I don't want it, too," or whatever the thing I was mad about was*.


 Your husband is a very very smart man... he lives by what my husband lives by... mine feels one of the biggest problems in marriage is being too stubborn to admit fault & waiting for the other spouse to CAVE... basically being passive aggressive...ignoring each other till one humbles themselves.. he is quick to show he wants to come together again... to talk it out.. I am the same way.... so in this ... we've always been the type that doesn't let the sun go down on our anger.. we stay with each other...haggling it out....











> *I didn't respond right away, but within some minutes, I would calm down and start to talk, and maybe even turn toward dh so he could hold me. When I was calm, he would quietly explain why he did not agree with the thing I was upset about. Sometimes we could find a solution, and sometimes we just had to leave the issue because there really wasn't a solution (I hated living in India, but we felt we could not leave, for example).
> 
> These times always ended with my apologizing to dh for what I had said. I was very specific, not only apologizing for the bad words and names, but for screaming, too.
> *


That's what good communication is all about! :smthumbup:



> *Dh never mentioned the tantrums when they were done. It was as though it had never happened.*


 Good for him, many struggle to do this.. when ours are over, we have this feeling it was "washed in the ocean"....that doesn't mean we'll never revisit a similar fight but we don't begrudge or hold on to any former resentments... 



> The first one I remember was when dd was about 2. We were at my parents' house and I got mad at dh for something. I called him some choice names and went in my parents' room to cool off. 20 minutes or so later I was ready to apologize.
> 
> We went for a walk and I told dh I was sorry for what I had said, and would he please forgive me?
> 
> *He told me, "Whatever you do, it is already forgiven."
> 
> I felt absolutely covered by love. I understand that not every woman wants to feel covered in love, but I found it incredibly peaceful and healing.*


 I can relate to this by my husband's hand... 

I remember one of our fights...I wasn't real nice that day...and afterwards I remember asking him what he would change about me if He could.. I was expecting him to say - my temper... he looks at me & says - he wouldn't change anything about me, because then.."it wouldn't be ME".... how he loves me just the way I am...that moment between us brought me to tears...



> Another time I remember getting mad and threatening divorce rolleyes: yes, I was being ridiculous; anger just makes me completely illogical). I said, "If we get divorced, I get half of everything!"
> 
> Dh calmly responded, "You deserve everything."
> 
> Well, that was the end of that angry outburst. There was nothing to do but go to him and tell him I was sorry for being so mean.


 Oh my goodness. .this is too [email protected]#$ Ha ha..what would an angry woman say to that !



> It has been a while since I have had a temper tantrum, maybe 3 years or so. I brought it up a few months ago and apologized again to dh. It has been a long, long time since I have said bad words or names to him, and I don't plan to ever do it again. *I hope I have put a mental gate on that activity. That is really not the wife I want to be, and I am sorry I ever was.*
> 
> Dh noted it had been a long time since I had done that, and that it must just have been a stage in my development, now over. I felt kind of silly hearing that, but I really am grateful he doesn't hold those times against me.


That's wonderful Jld...









I am more the UnRULY one in our marriage ....I get angrier easier.. what helps is... he is so damn lovable... what is there to get  at ... not much [email protected]#

The only thing we fight about is 1 THING.. I want him to TAKE me, be more dominant, do the things I put in my Spice Jar...If too much time passes without his taking a lead... he is asking for a brawl to be unleashed.. I have warned him. He doesn't get too mad...even apologizes for this... for being Lax... I told him once if I start getting mad, I am going to beat his a$$. Oh we have FUN with it, we'll make lemonade with it..

This is 1 of my posts describing 1 of our fights..










> *SimplyAmorous said*: I do believe this.. I've shared a few of our fights on this forum ... and really I probably make myself look BAD .... especially to those who have these calm laid back temperaments...& think such women who raise their voices are all out of control Bi*ches.
> 
> Our last fight.. Honest to God ...we ended up laughing so hard .....I was getting a little out of hand...(was in that pms timeframe - as usual)....... and I stopped....knowing I was coming off as a real WITCH... we recently seen that "*Oz the Great & Powerful*" movie....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he thought that Lady who played the Witch was HOT... before he knew she was the witch of course......
> 
> This suddenly came to my mind... and I referred to myself needing to go throw some green paint on my face...Grab a black hat...and put a broom inbetween my legs.... ....... I can't remember now but he probably told me I could put any witch to shame... ha ha.... and we just started laughing..... it just breaks the tension.. Then right after ...this is me...
> 
> Then ..we're all lovey dovey and go on and have passionate Make up Sex.. That's just how we are ! ...and we probably don't have another fight for a couple months +... it's all good.
> 
> This 344  star review book >>The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work: ... I noticed this sentence the other day in the write up on amazon >>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gottman debunks many myths about divorce (primary among them that affairs are at the root of most splits).
> 
> *He also reveals surprising facts about couples who stay together. They DO engage in screaming matches. *And they certainly don't resolve every problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Our good times FAR outweigh these unruly moments.... I mean the scales would be tipped with weights...of course this makes all the difference in the world.
Click to expand...


----------



## Anon Pink

jld said:


> So things got better with breastfeeding, but then I also had to deal with the loneliness of being a SAHM. This was all before the internet, lol.
> 
> It is so funny now, but I was so scared of dd. *I was so afraid I would make a mistake, and she would be scarred for life. LOL. I remember thinking I always had to smile at her. And one time I caught myself forgetting and I had a moment of panic.* And for how many months when she was an infant, I was really worried she didn't like me, because she was so picky and cried so much. Ridiculous, right? Way, way, way too emotional here. * I was so scared she would end up like me and I did not want that, so I was trying to do everything different than my parents did.*
> 
> Well, after about six months I went to counseling and we talked about the changes in becoming a mom and leaving the work force and also my self-esteem issues in being married to someone I thought was too good for me. I have always had this feeling about dh. Maybe being here will break it for me, though, as I feel like people are so honest, and being honest about why I feel this way, maybe being able to talk about it sometime, would probably help.
> 
> Anyway, so we are sitting there at the therapist's office and I am crying that he should have married someone better, and he is saying he does not feel that way at all. And she is trying to say something helpful. And I don't even remember what because when you are just so overcome with emotion, you just can't think straight and certainly cannot be rational.
> 
> Eventually things got better, but I have to admit that the whole time I had mostly little kids was rough for me. I felt it was my responsibility to do the best job I could, but I am not gifted with little kids. They require so much patience.
> 
> Sorry to babble on so much. I just remember that time of life as so very tiring, so very lonely. I did join a mothering group and that was good.
> 
> *Attachment parenting, like we did, really is very good, but it can just suck the life out of the parents.*
> 
> Sorry to be such a downer. I know you are having a really good time, and that is wonderful. You sound like you are doing exactly what you were meant to do. Keep enjoying it!



Wanted to finish reading the thread but I had to respond to this bolded parts.

Ditto!

When my oldest was..about 12 weeks, she was sleeping in her baby seat and I was sitting on the couch folding clothes and watching TV. I glanced down at her and she was just staring at me. I panicked! "OMG how long has she been awake and I haven't made smiling eye contact with her? OMG have I just totally damaged her self esteem because I have made eye contact and smiled? OMG I am the worst mother ever!!!!"

Good times... So glad that I lived through my first and learned to have more fun with the subsequent babies!

My MIL used to tell me, god sends a tough first baby so you can learn through them.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
Sorry for the long lag - I unplugged from TAM for the holidays. 

You pinpointed the issue pretty well. 

Over time I gradually became too passive and too accommodating and she became increasingly aggressive and selfish. 

She broke the proverbial straw two years ago at which point I began what I like to think of as 'the campaign for equity.'

We have had some very difficult moments but after pushing the marriage to the brink she seems to be coming around. I say this with some reluctance however I believe the primary catalyst for change was her gradual recognition that the status quo was heading inevitably towards the 'walk away husband' scenario. 

To be balanced about it - Mrs. MEM has always kept her positive qualities: playful, adventurous, great sense of humor, smart, organized, great in bed. But the controlling, jealous, selfish stuff got out of control. 






QUOTE=jld;6171761]Your wife really sounds like a leader. That must come from within. 

I tend to ask dh things, to see if it would be okay. He usually agrees.

I guess it is good she knew what she wanted, and breastfeeding really is so good for kids. 

It sounds like both of you are leaders, MEM-- you with the finances, and she with the kids. I am sure you are both grateful to each other for your contributions to the family.

By boundary issues, do you mean she can't hear no? 

Dh is very respectful. Even if I do look up to him, it is not like he holds his power over me. He really considers me. I really feel he wants the best for me. That's why I like to clear things with him. I feel like he is smart and might be able to point things out that I have not considered.[/QUOTE]


----------



## jld

AP, thanks for sharing that. I was not the only one worried about my baby's self-esteem! :rofl:

MEM, glad to see you back, and glad to see your wife is appreciating you again. They say that nature abhors a vacuum, and it sounds like you are stepping up and she can therefore relax. Good luck getting all of this figured out.

It's fun to get comments on this thread. The more I read and participate here, the more I learn about myself, dh, and our marriage. Thanks, everyone, for the education.


----------



## Anon Pink

jld said:


> I've just come from the arguing thread by asladain on the general board, and I would like to share some of my experiences of arguing with dh, because I think it could be helpful. At least it is a different way to deal with a wife's anger.
> 
> I have not had a temper tantrum in about 3 years, but from about 27-40, I had at least one a year, I would guess. I don't remember all the reasons for them, but basically I would get mad at dh and start yelling, and then throw in some bad words and some names. Sometimes he would yell back, but not much, and not every time. Usually he would just stand there and look at me. Sometimes he would tell me to change my tone of voice. Then I would just get madder and scream louder.
> 
> Usually after a minute or so, I would just give up and go throw myself on the bed. After some time, maybe a few minutes, maybe longer, dh would come in and lie beside me, or even rub my back. He would start to use active listening. "You are really mad. You really want such and such, and you are mad that I don't want it, too," or whatever the thing I was mad about was.
> 
> I didn't respond right away, but within some minutes, I would calm down and start to talk, and maybe even turn toward dh so he could hold me. When I was calm, he would quietly explain why he did not agree with the thing I was upset about. Sometimes we could find a solution, and sometimes we just had to leave the issue because there really wasn't a solution (I hated living in India, but we felt we could not leave, for example).
> 
> These times always ended with my apologizing to dh for what I had said. I was very specific, not only apologizing for the bad words and names, but for screaming, too.
> 
> Dh never mentioned the tantrums when they were done. It was as though it had never happened.
> 
> The first one I remember was when dd was about 2. We were at my parents' house and I got mad at dh for something. I called him some choice names and went in my parents' room to cool off. 20 minutes or so later I was ready to apologize.
> 
> We went for a walk and I told dh I was sorry for what I had said, and would he please forgive me?
> 
> He told me, "Whatever you do, it is already forgiven."
> 
> I felt absolutely covered by love. I understand that not every woman wants to feel covered in love, but I found it incredibly peaceful and healing.
> 
> Another time I remember getting mad and threatening divorce rolleyes: yes, I was being ridiculous; anger just makes me completely illogical). I said, "If we get divorced, I get half of everything!"
> 
> Dh calmly responded, "You deserve everything."
> 
> Well, that was the end of that angry outburst. There was nothing to do but go to him and tell him I was sorry for being so mean.
> 
> And then there was the time that my brother decided it was his place to scold me for talking disrespectfully to my dh (he happened to call right after I had gotten mad at dh, and I vented to my brother about it). I listened to my brother, mentally blew him off, and then told dh what he had said when dh got home from work. I was feeling kind of guilty and thought I would let dh get after me about it if he wanted to.
> 
> His response? "I hear your words, but I know your heart."
> 
> Again, I felt just bathed in love.
> 
> It has been a while since I have had a temper tantrum, maybe 3 years or so. I brought it up a few months ago and apologized again to dh. It has been a long, long time since I have said bad words or names to him, and I don't plan to ever do it again. I hope I have put a mental gate on that activity. That is really not the wife I want to be, and I am sorry I ever was.
> 
> Dh noted it had been a long time since I had done that, and that it must just have been a stage in my development, now over. I felt kind of silly hearing that, but I really am grateful he doesn't hold those times against me.


I wonder about this. What you describe seems so unrealistic for any man I have ever come in contact with, except for my father. I completely idolized my dad. But I've never met a man who had that much confidence in himself or in love, to have the strength to calmly deal with a woman while she is experiencing this level of out of control emotion.

Which is why is reminded me of my father and of my parenting of my own kids. As a parent, you deal with MANY emotional outbursts from your kids and as a parent you remain calm, remain firm, keep a loving tone but keep the boundaries in place. I can remember so many times scooping up a screaming 4 year old and just holding them during a tantrum. Not saying a word, just holding them. Let them scream and cry but in my arms where they are safe and feel my love as what keeps them safe.

I think in many good relationships there is at least a small element of being Mommy to husband and of being Daddy to wife. At least a small element.

I just wanted to say that I loved this post and the way you describe your husband's uncanny ability to be the kind of man you need him to be. Which allows you to be the kind of woman and wife he needs you to be. And how remarkable that you both like who you are for each other? 

You're a lucky woman JLD.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Haven't gone through all of the replies, but in our marriage I would have to say it fluctuates between my wife and I.
There were times when I just didn't have the strength , she gave me the reassurances I needed to carry on.

There were other times when I did.

But I think she's higher on the emotional spectrum. 

It's kinda hard to describe, but iI think of us like a tag team in a wrestling match, or like two players on a football [ soccer ] team who know each other's moves and understand the game.
Whenever one gets he ball he passes it to the other and it goes back and forth, confusing the opponents until they [ either one of them] score.

Curious thing is, she's the opposite of me, in many ways.

But we are a team together in every sense of the word.
Lol, we even run a business together.
I've always told her that together, we're unstoppable.


----------



## jld

I really cannot thank you enough for your post, AP. I feel validated.

Dh is very patient with me. He is like a father to me, and he is only 3 years older. He is imo a wise man. He has a great deal of respect for women. That is why, I think, that everywhere we have lived, women have just marveled to me about him. One told me he is "the perfect husband." A man in India came up to him at a party and told him he was happy to finally meet the man his wife could not stop holding up as the example of a husband and father.

I hear these things regularly, and so it naturally makes me wonder about other men. And then I read some things here and I get frustrated with some of the guys. Why aren't they doing more for their wives? Why are they not more patient, more gentle, kinder? Why won't they carry their families? Why are they not the rock for their women?

A woman's life is so hard. She risks death during pregnancy and birth. She gives her life to those kids. And she wants to give herself to her husband. And I really think it is only his own selfishness that keeps that from happening. If he loves her selflessly, she will do anything for him. She wants to.

I know, I am ranting. But I think men are preventing their own complete happiness by not loving their wives the way they could, the willingness to lay down their lives for them, or at least turn off the TV and willingly and attentively engage in active listening for an hour.

And I think if we don't challenge men to do that, and we don't provide examples of how some men do do it, that it is possible, then we are not helping not only men be the complete husbands they are truly capable of being, but women to become the complete, happy, loving, giving wives I think most truly want to be.

End of sermon!


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## jld

Okay, maybe not quite the end of the sermon . . . 

I don't know what I would do without my dh. I don't know what I would have done as a just-turned 23 year old if he hadn't told me he loved me, and wanted to be with me, despite all the bad things I told him about myself (I could not believe such a great guy would want me).

And when I come here and I see guys saying that they just can't be bothered to do active listening, or this one, "I did everything I could! I treated her like a princess!" Did she want to be a princess? Did you give her, in the words of Sandfly, not what she said she wanted, but what in her heart she truly needed?

She needs a stable man, someone she can count on. Someone who is truthful and listening to her. Seeing what she really needs and wants according to who she truly is. When you live with someone, you're supposed to pick up on that. You're supposed to know her better than she knows herself. And you're supposed to meet her needs accordingly.

When you are the leader, she can be the follower. It is more relaxing for her.

Now this obviously does not apply to equal partnership relationships. You folks, please just move along, and have a good day. Nothing here to see for you.

I'm talking to the people with a wife who wants the husband to carry more than 50% of the load. Because she is tired. Because she is stressed out. She would like her needs met, her real needs met, for a change.

You do this, men, by first becoming secure in yourself. This requires being rigorously honest with yourself about how you are not, I repeat, not, secure. 

Don't tell me you are a rock for her and then say how you just have to leave the room when she yells at you. Rocks don't leave the sea in the middle of the storm. They don't cower at the thunder and lightning, and they don't move away from the violent waves crashing against them. They do not get scared of the storm and have to just pick up and move away from that angry monster until it is finished.

The rock lets it all pass. He is, after all, the rock.

If you are not doing this, you are not the rock. You are, in all likelihood, the plastic yellow life raft.

But that is okay, if you admit you are the plastic yellow life raft. When you admit it, you can start to change it. You can find out why you are insecure, and then shore up your insecurities. Not a good dancer? Doesn't matter. You are good at something else, so focus on that. Share that with her.

Don't have a lot of money? That's okay, too, to a point (work on it). Tell her this is how much there is, and you are both going to have a reasonable, responsible plan for how to manage it. (See MEM's post on like page two of this thread -- excellent leadership there.) Don't buy a sports car. Don't buy, in MEM's words, male toys at the expense of your family. Earn her respect by putting the family's needs first.

Start thinking about what is really important to a marriage, like transparency and active listening, and put those front and center. She will see your heart and she will melt. I think practicing those two things, transparency and active listening, could end sexless marriages. 

Sexless marriage? I had heard tell of that before coming on marriage boards a few months ago, but couldn't believe anyone under retirement age was dealing with that. Oh, what a naive girl I was . . . 

End sexless marriage (is that an oxymoron?) with transparency (it brings vulnerability, which she will love!) and active listening (it makes her feel heard, respected, understood, and valued!)!

And if you are furious with me right now, please read my signature!


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## Tall Average Guy

jld said:


> A woman's life is so hard. She risks death during pregnancy and birth. She gives her life to those kids. And she wants to give herself to her husband. And I really think it is only his own selfishness that keeps that from happening. If he loves her selflessly, she will do anything for him. She wants to.


It certainly removes all the responsibility from women, doesn't it.

I am genuinely curious, based on your sermon - if you husband was so great, why were you having at least yearly tantrums directed at him?


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## Anon Pink

JLD, I just read your last post to my husband. It was a great post that sparked some good conversation between us.

He is getting there...


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## Anon Pink

Tall Average Guy said:


> It certainly removes all the responsibility from women, doesn't it.
> 
> I am genuinely curious, based on your sermon - if you husband was so great, why were you having at least yearly tantrums directed at him?


I don't think it removes responsibility from women. I think that is a common misconception. If the husband is going to take the lead in the marriage, the wife has to agree to submit to his leadership. But unlike dominant sex, the submissive partner has to be more active in identifying and communicating her needs, her wants, and her desires to her husband. No man is a mind reader.

If I can guess...I think jld's temper tantrums were more about frustration in both submitting to her husband while at the same time trying to identify, for him, what she needed. Maybe it was triggered by something absurd that had little to do with the mounting frustration of being a needy person and not being able to articulate those needs?

I've written posts about surrendering....that is freakin hard to do! It's just as hard for my husband to take the lead as it is for me to surrender.


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## norajane

Anon Pink said:


> I've written posts about surrendering....that is freakin hard to do! It's just as hard for my husband to take the lead as it is for me to surrender.


May I ask why you are trying to do the surrendering thing if it doesn't feel right to either of you?


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## Tall Average Guy

Anon Pink said:


> I don't think it removes responsibility from women. I think that is a common misconception. If the husband is going to take the lead in the marriage, the wife has to agree to submit to his leadership. But unlike dominant sex, the submissive partner has to be more active in identifying and communicating her needs, her wants, and her desires to her husband. No man is a mind reader.


I might agree with that, if that was all she had written. But the specific text I was referring to was the following:



> And she wants to give herself to her husband. And *I really think it is only his own selfishness that keeps that from happening. *If he loves her selflessly, she will do anything for him. She wants to.


The rest of her sermon is consistent with that (as are her other posts that I have read). IT is a man's fault if his woman does not love him, does not want sex with him and does not honor him. It is his failings, not hers, that are the problem.



> If I can guess...I think jld's temper tantrums were more about frustration in both submitting to her husband while at the same time trying to identify, for him, what she needed. Maybe it was triggered by something absurd that had little to do with the mounting frustration of being a needy person and not being able to articulate those needs?


Perhaps, though she has posted before that he was partially to blame for those tantrums. I am trying to understand that dynamic.



> I've written posts about surrendering....that is freakin hard to do! It's just as hard for my husband to take the lead as it is for me to surrender.


I imagine it is. I know that it is hard to be a leader in my marriage. I don't require perfection, but I also don't think a recognition by each of the responsibilities they have is unreasonable. So I find it off putting when she makes blanket statements placing all the blame and responsibility on the man while waving it away for the woman.


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## Tall Average Guy

norajane said:


> May I ask why you are trying to do the surrendering thing if it doesn't feel right to either of you?


I will jump in for my wife and I (Anon may have a different perspective). We were both raised that men and women were equal and that should apply to a marriage. Intellectually we know that. But in our marriage, that did not feel right, particularly with my wife. She feels happier, safer and more comfortable with me leading. But that is not what her brain told her, or how she was as a single woman. She took care of herself and did not need a man to lead then, so why the change.

So it was a struggle for her to be at peace with what she actually wanted and needed.


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## Anon Pink

Tall Average Guy said:


> I will jump in for my wife and I (Anon may have a different perspective). We were both raised that men and women were equal and that should apply to a marriage. Intellectually we know that. But in our marriage, that did not feel right, particularly with my wife. She feels happier, safer and more comfortable with me leading. But that is not what her brain told her, or how she was as a single woman. She took care of herself and did not need a man to lead then, so why the change.
> 
> So it was a struggle for her to be at peace with what she actually wanted and needed.


That!

In my case, because our marriage was rather unhealthy for so long, I had to get myself to be the kind of wife I wanted to be whether or not my husband was the kind of husband I wanted him to be. I hope that makes sense. It's had to surrender while leaving the ship uncaptained. But that is what I had to do. At first I was very bad about it, but now I'm much better with it. 

He left our marriage with me in charge and I made a mess of it. So I stepped out of leadership, but he didn't step in. Which made things worse.

Now he is stepping in a surrendering is a bit easier.


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## Anon Pink

Tall Average Guy said:


> I might agree with that, if that was all she had written. But the specific text I was referring to was the following:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And she wants to give herself to her husband. And I really think it is only his own selfishness that keeps that from happening. If he loves her selflessly, she will do anything for him. She wants to.
> 
> 
> 
> The rest of her sermon is consistent with that (as are her other posts that I have read). IT is a man's fault if his woman does not love him, does not want sex with him and does not honor him. It is his failings, not hers, that are the problem.
Click to expand...

Let me put in another way and in terms of traditional husband as head of household.

In a leadership vacuum, the wife will lose respect for him and subsequently fall out of love.

The selfishness, IMO, speaks to the very real risk a modern man takes when he asserts leadership to a modern woman. A woman who wants her man to be a leader, but hasn't (yet) been able to betray the sisterhood by admitting it outloud, may fight him for the helm. Most men will back down at this point. So I guess it is *kind of* selfish that he takes the path of least resistance rather than do as you yourself have done. 

Talk, read, learn, try new things... 

How many posts do we see from younger men who say no sex yet I vacuum all the time... That young man probably tried to take a leadership role, got tested, then backed down. So now things are even worse because she lost respect.

Of course this is all very simplistic and idealized, but the gist remains very valid IMO.


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## SimplyAmorous

Jdl will explain for herself ... one thing I keep pointing out -cause it nearly blew my mind when I read it....her husband is only home about 10 days out of the month...some of the story she has shared with me, just being alone, in new places ....this stretch of time...beating heat..just learning a child has cancer...holding down the homefront alone...she had her moments... 

Some difficult circumstances -he is a superb Provider, but they have surely had *some sacrifices *here... If this was me, I'd rather my husband take a lessor Job...us both work if need be......so he could be home every day.... I wouldn't fare well with my husband gone THAT long ...it would be torturous...in this way...I find her posts rather gracious of how she speaks of him.... just my 2 cents....

Also he is not one to show a lot of emotion due to his INTP temperament (I think that is what she said).... which leaves a little desired on that front as well.....but still she uplifts him...and focuses on the GOOD, the praiseworthy.


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## Tall Average Guy

Anon Pink said:


> The selfishness, IMO, speaks to the very real risk a modern man takes when he asserts leadership to a modern woman. A woman who wants her man to be a leader, but hasn't (yet) been able to betray the sisterhood by admitting it outloud, may fight him for the helm. Most men will back down at this point. So I guess it is *kind of* selfish that he takes the path of least resistance rather than do as you yourself have done.


I guess I don't see that as automatically being selfish by the man. Otherwise, it requires him to be a mind and heart reader - to know that while she is saying and acting as if she wants one thing, she in fact wants something else. Yes, it may be selfish if he knows what she wants and needs, but takes the easier route and does not give it to her. But to assume that he knows is not reasonable.

You acknowledge that you have a responsibility to communicate your wants, needs and opinions to your husband. Being unwilling or unable to do so does not mean shifting that responsibility to him.

Since I am telling my story piece meal today, I will note that my wife and I did not reach this point until I had improved as a person. Whether intentional or not, my wife did not let go of the helm until I already had a good grip. Probably a little of both.


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## Tall Average Guy

SimplyAmorous said:


> Also he is not one to show a lot of emotion due to his INTP temperament (I think that is what she said).... which leaves a little desired on that front as well.....but still she uplifts him...and focuses on the GOOD, the praiseworthy.


I disagree quite strongly with her characterization of what makes a good and strong man. 

That being said, it is clear that their relationship works for them. That is certainly something to celebrate and study to see what can be learned for others (and myself).


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## SimplyAmorous

Tall Average Guy said:


> I disagree quite strongly with her characterization of what makes a good and strong man.


 I assume you are talking about the man who doesn't walk out of the room when there is a fight...she sees that as a ROCK....and you see it as a WIMP... am I right?

My husband doesn't leave my side either... and it's not that we fight much at all......I wouldn't want to give that impression.....For ME... my personality...what I emotionally need... I appreciate him greatly for that...it ties me to him...it doesn't make him a doormat... though others may not see it this way and be offended by it. 

The dynamics for one couple may not be the dynamics for another couple.. Isn't this very obvious on TAM...

This is how I have always seen the greatest of MEN....these 9 characteristics...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-c...thy-praise-honor-minus-alpha-beta-debate.html

Give us your counter view Tall Average Guy... I am surely not one who puts it ALL on the man... We both need a workable partner..who cares & is in tuned to our needs...it will always take 2.


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## Anon Pink

Yes please give us your ideals of a strong leader husband?


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## Tall Average Guy

SimplyAmorous said:


> I assume you are talking about the man who doesn't walk out of the room when there is a fight...she sees that as a ROCK....and you see it as a WIMP... am I right?


No, I don't see him as wimp. But I don't see someone who states that they won't take that abuse and walks away until they cool down as an inferior man who is selfish and letting their pride get in the way. To be clear, I am not talking about a disagreement or fight. I am talking about abusive yelling and hurtful words being used where the fight has moved to the personal. 



> My husband doesn't leave my side either... and it's not that we fight much at all......I wouldn't want to give that impression.....For ME... my personality...what I emotionally need... I appreciate him greatly for that...it ties me to him...it doesn't make him a doormat... though others may not see it this way and be offended by it.
> 
> The dynamics for one couple may not be the dynamics for another couple.. Isn't this very obvious on TAM...


I agree. But her blanket statements make clear her view that it is the selfishness of men that prevent women from loving them and being happy. That men who are not willing to accept abuse from their woman are weak, immature and selfish. When women behave poorly, it is because of men. 



> This is how I have always seen the greatest of MEN....these 9 characteristics...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-c...thy-praise-honor-minus-alpha-beta-debate.html
> 
> Give us your counter view Tall Average Guy... I am surely not one who puts it ALL on the man... We both need a workable partner..who cares & is in tuned to our needs...it will always take 2.


I don't disagree with any of those criteria, nor do I think you are one to put it all on the man. But when I read the "sermon" that does (in light of her other posts), I feel compelled to note is short comings.


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## Anon Pink

TAG, she wasn't specifically referring to selfishness of men because they won't take abuse from their wives. The way I read her post was that selfish men who put their needs first, gamble, overuse of porn, buying new toys, hanging out with the guys...very obvious forms. Then she talked about subtle forms of selfishness like running from a temper tantrum instead of standing up to one.

As I read through her posts, I see JLD as an extremely kind woman with great sensitivity, who holds her husband up as the very epitome of masculine leadership and then she gives examples of how HIS brand of masculine leadership perfectly suits HER needs.

I see nothing worth taking offense. She simply wanted to express her thoughts and her feelings...in HER thread about her view that maybe a husband can indeed by THE key to long term success. If she had posted her sermon in some other thread, it might be appropriate to take offense if it hit you wrong.

I'm jaded, I think the relative dysfunctions must suit each other for long term success!:smthumbup:


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## Tall Average Guy

Anon Pink said:


> TAG, she wasn't specifically referring to selfishness of men because they won't take abuse from their wives. The way I read her post was that selfish men who put their needs first, gamble, overuse of porn, buying new toys, hanging out with the guys...very obvious forms. Then she talked about subtle forms of selfishness like running from a temper tantrum instead of standing up to one.


Perhaps, but I am reading them in the context of another thread, where she noted that only mature men who have compassion and are secure in themselves will stay to face such abuse. That to do otherwise demonstrates a weak man. 



> As I read through her posts, I see JLD as an extremely kind woman with great sensitivity, who holds her husband up as the very epitome of masculine leadership and then she gives examples of how HIS brand of masculine leadership perfectly suits HER needs.


I agree that he matches her. That is wonderful and there are things from their relationship that others can take and use to their benefit. But she is too quick to apply what works in her relationship as a judgement of all.



> I see nothing worth taking offense. She simply wanted to express her thoughts and her feelings...in HER thread about her view that maybe a husband can indeed by THE key to long term success. If she had posted her sermon in some other thread, it might be appropriate to take offense if it hit you wrong.


I am not aware of any convention in TAM that a posters view on their own thread are untouchable or indisputable. But as some see that as a problem, it probably makes more sense for me to let it go.


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## SimplyAmorous

Tall Average Guy said:


> *I am not aware of any convention in TAM that a posters view on their own thread are untouchable or indisputable.* But as some see that as a problem, it probably makes more sense to let it go.


 I kinda like when others DO this to me, I like an intellectual challenge where I have to explain myself... I guess I need to do a sermon...to bring them out of the woodwork! Not making light of this, really.. I agree with you... on an open forum, nothing wrong with some "countering".


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## RoseAglow

SimplyAmorous said:


> I assume you are talking about the man who doesn't walk out of the room when there is a fight...she sees that as a ROCK....and you see it as a WIMP... am I right?


As a more aggressive woman, I have to say that I would interpret a man standing there and taking my bad behavior as a major sign of weakness.

Mind you, I don't mean a man who leaves out of fear, and I don't mean leaving a basic heated argument. 


By bad behavior, I mean, screaming, yelling, being disrespectful, being out of control. I trust a man- or a woman, actually- who is able to say, "I am not going to sit here while you yell/scream/are being disrespectful. I am happy to talk with you when you calm down." I trust this person MUCH more than I would trust a person who accepts bad behavior with a "there, there. It will be OK. I am sorry you are upset." 

And actually, I parent my son this way as well. When he has bad behavior he goes into the corner because it is not acceptable. My son has only thrown one tantrum so far (but he is only 3, I am sure more are on their way!); I just carried him into his room and let him scream and pound on his bed. I left the room but stayed outside until he was done. Then when he calmed down, we discussed the event. I don't know, it might just be different ways for different people. 



> My husband doesn't leave my side either... and it's not that we fight much at all......I wouldn't want to give that impression.....For ME... my personality...what I emotionally need... I appreciate him greatly for that...it ties me to him...it doesn't make him a doormat... though others may not see it this way and be offended by it.
> 
> The dynamics for one couple may not be the dynamics for another couple.. Isn't this very obvious on TAM...


Heck yeah and Amen, sister! We are all different and need different things from our partners. It would be so boring if we were all the same, and how would ever get that special "Fit" with the right person if we were all the same?


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## Anon Pink

I should hope an over emotional woman throwing a fit over something, though trivial it may be, isn't lumped into the category of a preschooler throwing a fit! And kids, like adults, throw fits for different reasons. Once I figured out my daughter, the fit thrower, would do this when she was exhausted it was like magic when I picked her up and held her. She simply couldn't settle herself when I would put her on her own. Once I held her, she calmed and fell asleep within 10 minutes! Magic man just freaking majic! Felt like such an idiot once I figured it out.


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## jld

Sorry to not be around to be part of the discussion. I went shopping with dd18 to a bigger city this afternoon, and just got back.

I have to say, I was surprised to see all the posts!

And please don't feel bad, anyone, for expressing whatever you genuinely think. That is how we learn and grow. I think it is great that people are honest and open about how they feel. For some reason, these posts provoked thought and that is always a good thing. And I think you make good points for me to ponder.

Okay, I am going to work on a post to address some points, and it is going to be long. Actually, there may be several, so stay tuned.

And don't worry about sincere questions, ever. Attacks are different, you know? Attacks are you're stupid, you don't know anything, you're obviously an immature moron, etc. Sincere questions that seek truth and understanding are always, always appreciated.


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## jld

Tall Average Guy said:


> It certainly removes all the responsibility from women, doesn't it.
> 
> I am genuinely curious, based on your sermon - if you husband was so great, why were you having at least yearly tantrums directed at him?


You seem angry that I put the responsibility for the marriage on men. But I think men have a tremendous ability to transform a marriage. I have some sisters who worked pretty hard on their marriages, and the result was more or less holding a fragile situation together. I think a man in the same position could do a lot more, just because of the natural dynamics between most men and women. And I think a man who is committed to transparency and active listening could not only turn his marriage around, but probably all the relationships in his life.

I know this is hard to hear. It is hard for me to hear things that prick my conscience, too. Pride is a tough thing. It keeps us from growing. We are so busy defending ourselves and showing how we are right that we can't say, gee, what can I learn from this?



I need to talk to dh more about what he remembers about the cause of the tantrums. Dd told me she remembers that some were about my wanting to do things that dh did not. That kind of rings a bell, because I usually wanted to do fun things, and he usually wanted to stay home.

When the kids were little, it was so hard. I was a SAHM because that is what was "in the contract" that we started with, and because in my heart of hearts, I thought it was what the kids needed. But I was lonely and bored. This was in the 90s, before we had internet. We did not go to church, because I don't trust religion, so it's not like I was meeting friends there. I should have tried harder to get to know people. 

With little ones needing you, it's not like you can just sit and read books all day. And really, my standards were just too high. We did not have TV, because I thought that would make for more creative children. All the meals were from scratch. All the books and music were in French, so the kids would get reinforcement when Papa was not there. On demand nursing and family bed.

I understand why families don't do these things. They can really suck the life out of the mother.

But when I see how our kids are turning out, I know it was worth it.

But there was a price. Because of the devotion to the best for the kids, I really did not get the intellectual stimulation I needed. We chose a home close to dh's work so that he could come home for lunch every day. But we are not in a big city, so there were not as many opportunities for meeting people as there might have been. And I did not take advantage of what there probably was, partly because of the obligations at home, and partly because I probably was not extroverted enough.

So I was always looking for chances to go to the city.

Dh did not want to come home after 10 or 12 hour days and go somewhere. He did not want to eat in restaurants 3 times a week. He wanted to come home and be with me and the kids and maybe work in his garden or take the kids to the park or something like that. We are both introverts, but dh is moreso than I am, and he was getting plenty of interaction at work, and did not need any more social activity.

I, on the other hand, was dying for it.

So I was always asking to go to restaurants (didn't like cooking, or washing dishes, for that matter), or to go see friends, or just to get out in the evenings or on weekends to break up the monotony of life at home with little kids.

Dh grew up on a little farm in France, and rarely left it before college. He did not eat in a restaurant until he was 21. Besides school, he was always helping his dad on the farm. He is the oldest boy in his family, and has a great work ethic. He was a foreman of grown men on neighboring farms at 14 or 15. He saved all his money to buy computers and teach himself about them. He did not at all understand my desire just to go out and do fun things. 

And he did not believe in babysitters. He said the kids always had to be with us, because we were their parents. So we never did nights out. We had nights with the whole family out, or nights in.

I felt like I had to follow his ideas, because really, they were good ones. We had the house paid off in 4 years. No debt. The kids were secure. Who can complain of the devotion of a father to the best for his children?

I felt really dumb asking to do fun things all the time. But I did it anyway.

And often he gave in, but not always. And sometimes I would get really mad, and start screaming.

I am not a perfect wife and mom. I'm selfish. And I'm emotional. And little kids drive me crazy.

But little kids turn into big kids who are absolutely a joy. The very best company I could imagine. Truly they are a reward for the pain they were when they were little.

So I think dh was right with his guidelines, but I chafed under them. I knew he was right in the long term, but I wanted to have fun in the short term! So there was conflict.



SA was really kind to defend me. It was really hard in India. All those mosquitoes, the heat, dh working in another city and our only seeing him 6 days a month, so that the kids and I could live near the cancer hospital. Those were such hard years. And dh knew it. But it was so good for his career that he just couldn't leave. And I knew we were saving a lot of money and when you have a big family, you have to be practical. But it was still hard.

Maybe you have to have lived our life to know. I guess I sound really bad, but dh actually loves me a lot. I guess that is why he was so patient with me.

He knew he brought me there. He was probably glad on some level that I stayed there. 

I did not want to go back to America alone. But before India, when we lived in France, and dh was transferred to India, I told him I wanted to go back to America. He wanted me to stay in France, because it was only a ten hour commute from India. But I wanted to be back in my house in America, where I could drive. I missed the independence I had in America. So dh took us back to America, and then went to India. He would spend 3 weeks in India, and one with us in America every month. He did that for ten months, until after our last baby was born, and then we joined him in India.

It was so hard in India. It was so hot and dirty and poor and just depressing. And then ds got cancer. And we were all alone over there.

I had the most angry times in India. I felt so alone and overwhelmed. And it all just got thrown at dh sometimes.

I feel so tired talking about this. The tantrum times were never happy times. 

Dh said recently, "Temper tantrums happen when someone is not listening." He is the one who says he is at least partially responsible for those tantrums. He knew he was asking a lot of me. Dh does a lot, compared to other husbands, but 5 kids is a big project.

If you want to blame me, you can. I accepted to have the kids. And I love them very much. But it is a big commitment.

Dh now says that he feels he took me for granted. He felt I would never leave him, that I was just completely committed to him and the kids. So he did not always put the time in that he should have, really giving me attention. I think the screaming was probably just me trying to be heard.


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## jld

I suppose I sound like a broken record, but I love dh so much. He meets my deepest needs. I really am lucky we just kind of fell into each other's laps.

He has done so much for me. He doesn't care about those temper tantrums. Little girl anger doesn't bother him. I think people get offended when I say they are scared by a woman's anger, but I think that is what it is. Dh is not scared of it. 

I was stunned to hear people would think that staying in a room with a screaming woman would be wimpy. That is exactly the opposite of what I think. Would Jesus have to leave the room if someone were screaming? Or would he just stay and calm the storm? 

People have emotions. You can just shut them down. That is one way to handle them. Another way is to work through them.

I can't speak to the shutting down option. Just isn't me. I was heavily influenced by the La Leche League, and they encourage gentle parenting. That's where we learned about active listening, too. That changed our lives! 

I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree about what having to leave a room when a woman is screaming means about a man. 

I feel so bad for those gals with BPD. They need so much help. They need love and caring and safety. And I wonder how many of them really get it?

I feel bad for women who have to carry their families. I know they are not doing everything right, but I feel like I have seen a lot of very committed wives and mothers holding down the fort while the guy is off pursuing his hobby. But maybe every woman works out what she can accept. I feel like I am trying to get a better deal for every woman by pushing men to be more giving, but maybe some women do not need or want that. But I think it is more likely they don't know it is possible.


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## norajane

Wow, jld, it seems to be working out beautifully for you, but I'd have a boatload of resentment if I were in your shoes. A cargo container ship full.

To me, it sounds like you enabled your husband to fulfill his dreams. Five kids you never imagined you'd have, raising them in a way that didn't really agree with you, socially limited in many ways by your husband's preferences in how to raise the family, left almost alone to raise those five kids, and alone in a foreign country with a child with cancer, plus the other children. And your husband has left you alone so much to follow his career dreams and make money. I'm sure he sees that as his duty. What of your dreams? Who will you be once the kids are out of the house?

To you, it feels like something entirely different than how it seems to me.

It sounds like you've done a wonderful job raising those kids. Cheers to you.


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## Anon Pink

Me too on the resentment front. Cargo ship full of em!

However, I've recently discovered that a good relationship is poison to resentment..for those who do not wish to carry such bitterness with them always.


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## jld

Norajane and AP, can you explain the resentment part?

I did not have any dreams, norajane. I was just an absolutely lost person when I met dh. It was like I was empty inside.

I needed the structure he provided, and the love. And it's true that those dreams were not my dreams, but I don't think I would have the life I have without dh. And my children are so kind and responsible, and so stable. I don't think I was ever stable before dh.

He did tell me that while he would give up things in the short term with me, that I would be giving up a lot long term. Maybe he was trying to say what you have said. I guess I just can't see it. I'm going to show him this and ask him.

Are you trying to say he took advantage of me?


----------



## Quant

I find when someone is in charge that everything moves much more smoothly. Power being evenly divided in a relationship seems to me to be the ultimate delusion. I make most major decisions and my wife has consented to me doing so. You can make arrangements how you see fit for your own relationship,but I like to be in charge and my wife likes me in charge.


----------



## Quant

jld said:


> You seem angry that I put the responsibility for the marriage on men. But I think men have a tremendous ability to transform a marriage. I have some sisters who worked pretty hard on their marriages, and the result was more or less holding a fragile situation together. I think a man in the same position could do a lot more, just because of the natural dynamics between most men and women. And I think a man who is committed to transparency and active listening could not only turn his marriage around, but probably all the relationships in his life.
> 
> I know this is hard to hear. It is hard for me to hear things that prick my conscience, too. Pride is a tough thing. It keeps us from growing. We are so busy defending ourselves and showing how we are right that we can't say, gee, what can I learn from this?
> 
> 
> 
> I need to talk to dh more about what he remembers about the cause of the tantrums. Dd told me she remembers that some were about my wanting to do things that dh did not. That kind of rings a bell, because I usually wanted to do fun things, and he usually wanted to stay home.
> 
> When the kids were little, it was so hard. I was a SAHM because that is what was "in the contract" that we started with, and because in my heart of hearts, I thought it was what the kids needed. But I was lonely and bored. This was in the 90s, before we had internet. We did not go to church, because I don't trust religion, so it's not like I was meeting friends there. I should have tried harder to get to know people.
> 
> With little ones needing you, it's not like you can just sit and read books all day. And really, my standards were just too high. We did not have TV, because I thought that would make for more creative children. All the meals were from scratch. All the books and music were in French, so the kids would get reinforcement when Papa was not there. On demand nursing and family bed.
> 
> I understand why families don't do these things. They can really suck the life out of the mother.
> 
> But when I see how our kids are turning out, I know it was worth it.
> 
> But there was a price. Because of the devotion to the best for the kids, I really did not get the intellectual stimulation I needed. We chose a home close to dh's work so that he could come home for lunch every day. But we are not in a big city, so there were not as many opportunities for meeting people as there might have been. And I did not take advantage of what there probably was, partly because of the obligations at home, and partly because I probably was not extroverted enough.
> 
> So I was always looking for chances to go to the city.
> 
> Dh did not want to come home after 10 or 12 hour days and go somewhere. He did not want to eat in restaurants 3 times a week. He wanted to come home and be with me and the kids and maybe work in his garden or take the kids to the park or something like that. We are both introverts, but dh is moreso than I am, and he was getting plenty of interaction at work, and did not need any more social activity.
> 
> I, on the other hand, was dying for it.
> 
> So I was always asking to go to restaurants (didn't like cooking, or washing dishes, for that matter), or to go see friends, or just to get out in the evenings or on weekends to break up the monotony of life at home with little kids.
> 
> Dh grew up on a little farm in France, and rarely left it before college. He did not eat in a restaurant until he was 21. Besides school, he was always helping his dad on the farm. He is the oldest boy in his family, and has a great work ethic. He was a foreman of grown men on neighboring farms at 14 or 15. He saved all his money to buy computers and teach himself about them. He did not at all understand my desire just to go out and do fun things.
> 
> And he did not believe in babysitters. He said the kids always had to be with us, because we were their parents. So we never did nights out. We had nights with the whole family out, or nights in.
> 
> I felt like I had to follow his ideas, because really, they were good ones. We had the house paid off in 4 years. No debt. The kids were secure. Who can complain of the devotion of a father to the best for his children?
> 
> I felt really dumb asking to do fun things all the time. But I did it anyway.
> 
> And often he gave in, but not always. And sometimes I would get really mad, and start screaming.
> 
> I am not a perfect wife and mom. I'm selfish. And I'm emotional. And little kids drive me crazy.
> 
> But little kids turn into big kids who are absolutely a joy. The very best company I could imagine. Truly they are a reward for the pain they were when they were little.
> 
> So I think dh was right with his guidelines, but I chafed under them. I knew he was right in the long term, but I wanted to have fun in the short term! So there was conflict.
> 
> 
> 
> SA was really kind to defend me. It was really hard in India. All those mosquitoes, the heat, dh working in another city and our only seeing him 6 days a month, so that the kids and I could live near the cancer hospital. Those were such hard years. And dh knew it. But it was so good for his career that he just couldn't leave. And I knew we were saving a lot of money and when you have a big family, you have to be practical. But it was still hard.
> 
> Maybe you have to have lived our life to know. I guess I sound really bad, but dh actually loves me a lot. I guess that is why he was so patient with me.
> 
> He knew he brought me there. He was probably glad on some level that I stayed there.
> 
> I did not want to go back to America alone. But before India, when we lived in France, and dh was transferred to India, I told him I wanted to go back to America. He wanted me to stay in France, because it was only a ten hour commute from India. But I wanted to be back in my house in America, where I could drive. I missed the independence I had in America. So dh took us back to America, and then went to India. He would spend 3 weeks in India, and one with us in America every month. He did that for ten months, until after our last baby was born, and then we joined him in India.
> 
> It was so hard in India. It was so hot and dirty and poor and just depressing. And then ds got cancer. And we were all alone over there.
> 
> I had the most angry times in India. I felt so alone and overwhelmed. And it all just got thrown at dh sometimes.
> 
> I feel so tired talking about this. The tantrum times were never happy times.
> 
> Dh said recently, "Temper tantrums happen when someone is not listening." He is the one who says he is at least partially responsible for those tantrums. He knew he was asking a lot of me. Dh does a lot, compared to other husbands, but 5 kids is a big project.
> 
> If you want to blame me, you can. I accepted to have the kids. And I love them very much. But it is a big commitment.
> 
> Dh now says that he feels he took me for granted. He felt I would never leave him, that I was just completely committed to him and the kids. So he did not always put the time in that he should have, really giving me attention. I think the screaming was probably just me trying to be heard.


I agree if the man is to have power in the relationship he must wield it skillfully otherwise you lose love and respect.


----------



## Anon Pink

jld said:


> Norajane and AP, can you explain the resentment part?
> 
> I did not have any dreams, norajane. I was just an absolutely lost person when I met dh. It was like I was empty inside.
> 
> I needed the structure he provided, and the love. And it's true that those dreams were not my dreams, but I don't think I would have the life I have without dh. And my children are so kind and responsible, and so stable. I don't think I was ever stable before dh.
> 
> He did tell me that while he would give up things in the short term with me, that I would be giving up a lot long term. Maybe he was trying to say what you have said. I guess I just can't see it. I'm going to show him this and ask him.
> 
> Are you trying to say he took advantage of me?



No, not at all! I must say that in the posts I have read here and elsewhere, it is kind of obvious you put more faith and trust in your husband than you do yourself. While I think that is sweet, it also worries me. When you place this child like adoration onto another, when you give up all control, you place a tremendous burden on the other person. I spoke of this before and the situation you describe above, with your isolation and commitment to raising your children in the way you and your husband felt was best, actually he felt it was best and you went along with it, is the perfect example of that burden.

You were put in an untenable situation. You looked to your husband to lead, well the burden of leadership is ensure the safety and well being of everyone they lead. Within the home, that leadership also includes relative happiness. 

You were cut off from all support, raising little ones who demand every bit of your attention and energy. They leave you totally drained, as you know. 

I always wanted my husband to be a SAHD for a month, take care of them, see to their education, their enrichment, their needs...see how much he had left to give to anyone else let alone himself as he threw himself into parenting them and taking care of the home, the yard, the animals. He couldn't make it past a day before he took them to grandmas house!

Your husband, at the time, wasn't watching out for what you needed. What you needed were timely breaks, adult companionship, adult conversation, time alone with him. Christ, how about a long hot bath without anyone knocking on the damn door!

(Early on, my husband asked what I wanted for Mother's Day. Leave me alone. No one can ask me for anything, to do anything, to find anything. No one can come crying to me, no one can ask me for food, to settle a fight or if Sally can play. I'm going to garden all day long and you all will clean this house and leave me alone!)

Having said all of that... Lemme tell you about all the mistakes I made due to inexperience....:rofl: it's so easy to arm chair quarter back after the fact...

So I don't think he took advantage of you, I just don't think he took excellent care of you during those years.

You didn't express your needs very well, it appears. Frankly, I'm surprised you didn't have a nervous break down or go into a serious depression. I didn't express my needs very well either up until just a few years ago and H is still learning.

I guess a huge portion of being able to trust in a marriage is also being able to trust yourself to know what you need, your partner to trust you to know what you need and to communicate it. If your husband is going to lead, you have to be able to speak up for yourself and to know that there are some times when you have to say "no, this is too much I need a break!"

They weren't temper tantrums you had, they were complete emotional break downs of a woman over taxed, over wrought, who needed, desperately so, some time away and alone! Time to revisit and call them what they really were.

That is the burden of leadership too. To realize the mistakes you've made and take steps to not repeat them, after a hearty apology and a trip to the islands....:smthumbup: His mistakes were honest mistakes, but they remain mistakes and lapses in caring for you.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

norajane said:


> *Wow, jld, it seems to be working out beautifully for you, but I'd have a boatload of resentment if I were in your shoes. A cargo container ship full.*
> 
> To me, it sounds like you enabled your husband to fulfill his dreams. Five kids you never imagined you'd have, raising them in a way that didn't really agree with you, socially limited in many ways by your husband's preferences in how to raise the family, left almost alone to raise those five kids, and alone in a foreign country with a child with cancer, plus the other children. And your husband has left you alone so much to follow his career dreams and make money. I'm sure he sees that as his duty. What of your dreams? Who will you be once the kids are out of the house?
> 
> To you, it feels like something entirely different than how it seems to me.
> 
> It sounds like you've done a wonderful job raising those kids. Cheers to you.


See...I am thinking one of the reasons she may not have the resentment is BECAUSE she vented, ranted, and had those tantrums... she would get it out of her system...it would built, then she'd erupt......

I agree with Avon it's a wonder she didn't have a *nervous breakdown* with all the pressure.. I have to go out - be back later... That was a great post, you expressed all the things I was thinking myself... but said it so much better!


----------



## jld

I was kind of shocked by the replies, but it is really enlightening to hear what other people think. I never would have guessed. 

Everyone has some truth to what they think. Even if it is just, hey, that would not work for me, but more power to you.

I have to say, though, that I was all upset with dh after reading some of the posts. Oh, gosh, you don't want to know the words I was shouting out around here this morning. Dh was like, wth? Where did all this come from? 

And then he told me he was shutting off the computer. 

We are laughing about it now, but at 7 am I was a mess. It really provoked excellent, heartfelt conversation between us though, about those times in our lives. And the kids came in later and shared their memories of those difficult times. Very interesting, very enlightening, and I hope, very healing.

We humans don't have to be scared of emotion. We can use it to make deeper connections with one another.

Dh should have done more for me personally, and I should have not had such high standards for our family life. Live and learn. And hope everyone can forgive each other.

And I have to learn how to read posts without taking them straight to heart and overreacting! There is so much more to our lives than we can adequately express here.

I have such respect, and I do mean respect, for norajane and AP and SA. These gals are wise! 

Your children are so lucky to have you for a mom, AP. What an insightful woman, and so caring! You really get a lot of things, and I shed a few tears after I read your post. You cannot imagine how much I appreciate your compassion and understanding. Sincere thanks.

I do love my dh so much, but he did not fully meet my emotional needs when our kids were mostly small. He has always put work first, then kids, then me, then himself. I came before him, but I still came after the kids. 

The thing is, and I think you get this, how do you really not do this, if you love your kids? I think we could have done a better job, but kids are needy. They are truly needy. We did not have family around, but when I look at all the conflicts between mothers and daughters, I wonder how helpful it is, anyway. It does seem to come with strings and drama.

And you are right that I did not realize my needs, and apparently could not communicate them. When I think about the days that I could not get out of bed, or even whole weekends, I see now that I was depressed. I think dh knew there was something wrong, but did not know what to do about it. We just were not familiar enough with mental health issues, and how to deal with them.

And SA, you were right on that those outbursts were the steam valve blowing open. You totally nailed that.

I did not realize how hard it was going to be in India, but we did learn a lot there. We learned a lot from living in France. I learned a lot from having 5 kids and homeschooling and home births and researching the vegan diet and every other non-mainstream thing we have done. 

And we have learned from cancer and we may be learning more there and I can assure you that we don't want to.

So, I think life is hard. 

We can get bitter, or we can accept difficulty and learn from it. And develop compassion and understanding.

And maybe we all have a different objective in life.

I threw in my lot with dh nearly 20 years ago, and we're in this adventure together. 

And you're right, AP, that I probably put too much trust in him. I have probably given him, perhaps unintentionally, too much power. I probably gave all of it. I think it just kind of happens when you really respect and trust a man. 

I really do believe in him, and I am so grateful for my life with him. It is hard not to adore a man when you think so highly of him. But you are so right to point out his faults. I needed to hear that. Thank you.


----------



## Anon Pink

JLD, your honesty amazes me! Really, emotional honesty is something I so struggle with. Emotional vulnerability scares the crap out of me. I know this, I try to be brave, but I hide in real life. I hide what hurts and I hide what scares me and I hide what makes me nervous. I don't hide FROM those things, I hide that I am terrified OF those things. I pretend that I am not ready to vomit when I have to force myself to be emotionally vulnerable. I pretend that I've just had an insight when it is something I've known for a while but I've been too afraid to share something and I hate being like this.

I see you and your vulnerability as bravery I lack.

When you wrote about getting angry at your husband this morning, reliving what happened in the past, bringing the kids in on that conversation... Goddamn that blew me away! 

I want to know how to do that with my husband!

Also wondering when you're H is taking you to the islands...seeing how I'm so wise and all...


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> JLD, your honesty amazes me! Really, emotional honesty is something I so struggle with. Emotional vulnerability scares the crap out of me. I know this, I try to be brave, but I hide in real life. I hide what hurts and I hide what scares me and I hide what makes me nervous. I don't hide FROM those things, I hide that I am terrified OF those things. I pretend that I am not ready to vomit when I have to force myself to be emotionally vulnerable. I pretend that I've just had an insight when it is something I've known for a while but I've been too afraid to share something and I hate being like this.
> 
> I see you and your vulnerability as bravery I lack.
> 
> When you wrote about getting angry at your husband this morning, reliving what happened in the past, bringing the kids in on that conversation... Goddamn that blew me away!
> 
> I want to know how to do that with my husband!
> 
> Also wondering when you're H is taking you to the islands...seeing how I'm so wise and all...


Wow! You are really brave to take this step and post about it!

You are such a wonderful gal, AP. I really feel lucky to meet you here. I am looking forward to learning more from you.

Just right from the beginning, I was transparent with dh. Right after he told me he loved me, well, maybe 3 days later, I sat down and told him every bad thing I could think of about myself. And he still wanted to be with me! So I just kept being transparent. Poor guy!

I am sure your guy loves you. I bet he even already knows much of what is in your heart. He may just not want to say it because he thinks that you, as such a brave, strong woman, would be offended if he says it.

Take courage, take his hand, and share your heart.

And maybe you and he should be going to the islands!:smthumbup:


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## Anon Pink

Not that simple, sure wish it was though.

Based on 29 years of trying...though half heartedly...
He will remain silent and still, not knowing what to do. He will not say anything. He will crack a joke, change the subject or he will say something like...no...that's not true, that's not right, no you don't... He will mirror back what I've said, hyper exaggerating the feelings expressed, thus making me feel ridiculous for feeling like that. He will misinterpret what I've said and we will go back and forth restating what I've said, all the while I'm saying red and he hears blue describes blue, names everything that is blue, but uses the color red. I know I don't express myself very well verbally. The times I've absolutely had to be emotionally vulnerable and been afraid, I write to him. He doesn't always reply.

We were supposed to go to the islands the end of this month. We put the trip on hold until we got the results back. Next week we will hopefully be able to plan it and maybe get some last minute deals!


----------



## Quant

Anon Pink said:


> Not that simple, sure wish it was though.
> 
> Based on 29 years of trying...though half heartedly...
> He will remain silent and still, not knowing what to do. He will not say anything. He will crack a joke, change the subject or he will say something like...no...that's not true, that's not right, no you don't... He will mirror back what I've said, hyper exaggerating the feelings expressed, thus making me feel ridiculous for feeling like that. He will misinterpret what I've said and we will go back and forth restating what I've said, all the while I'm saying red and he hears blue describes blue, names everything that is blue, but uses the color red. I know I don't express myself very well verbally. The times I've absolutely had to be emotionally vulnerable and been afraid, I write to him. He doesn't always reply.
> 
> We were supposed to go to the islands the end of this month. We put the trip on hold until we got the results back. Next week we will hopefully be able to plan it and maybe get some last minute deals!


He's probably afraid of being rude or hurting you. I'm similar to him in that I don't like those icky feelings but since I have no filter I will just give my woman brutal honesty anyways. Sometimes a little bit of hurt in the short term is best in the long run.


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## Anon Pink

I don't believe it! You Quant...no filter? 

What do you mean a little bit of hurt in the short term? His or mine?


----------



## Anon Pink

SimplyAmorous said:


> See...I am thinking one of the reasons she may not have the resentment is BECAUSE she vented, ranted, and had those tantrums... she would get it out of her system...it would built, then she'd erupt......


SA, I think you're on to something. Have you ever done that? Held it in and then erupted at your H?


----------



## Quant

Anon Pink said:


> I don't believe it! You Quant...no filter?
> 
> What do you mean a little bit of hurt in the short term? His or mine?


If I love my woman her hurt is my hurt, I'm not too concerned about my hurt I'm a resilient headcase.I mean saying how you feel can cause hurt sometimes with your significant other even if you don't want it to,that's just the reality of love I suppose.


----------



## Quant

Anon Pink said:


> SA, I think you're on to something. Have you ever done that? Held it in and then erupted at your H?


What woman doesn't do this,you ladies are so passive aggressive especially with guys that are a little on the dominant side.


----------



## Anon Pink

Actually, it's my H who does this. Nothing nothing no reaction nothing no reaction no reaction then BAM he's outta control yelling at the kids!


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> Not that simple, sure wish it was though.
> 
> Based on 29 years of trying...though half heartedly...
> He will remain silent and still, not knowing what to do. He will not say anything. He will crack a joke, change the subject or he will say something like...no...that's not true, that's not right, no you don't... He will mirror back what I've said, hyper exaggerating the feelings expressed, thus making me feel ridiculous for feeling like that. He will misinterpret what I've said and we will go back and forth restating what I've said, all the while I'm saying red and he hears blue describes blue, names everything that is blue, but uses the color red. I know I don't express myself very well verbally. The times I've absolutely had to be emotionally vulnerable and been afraid, I write to him. He doesn't always reply.
> 
> We were supposed to go to the islands the end of this month. We put the trip on hold until we got the results back. Next week we will hopefully be able to plan it and maybe get some last minute deals!


What do you think about saying, when he makes a joke, or changes the subject, or something like that, "I feel hurt when you xxx when I am sharing my feelings with you." I statements. Would that help?

When he starts hyperexaggerating, how about saying something like, "You feel uncomfortable when I talk about my feelings." And then see what he says, and then keep reflecting the feeling.

That is great that you write to him. I usually just talk, but that writing idea is good, too.

And I hope you can go on that vacation soon!:


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> Actually, it's my H who does this. Nothing nothing no reaction nothing no reaction no reaction then BAM he's outta control yelling at the kids!


My mom was like this. Nothing and then all of a sudden she would slap you across the face!

What parenting books do you like, AP?


----------



## Quant

Anon Pink said:


> Actually, it's my H who does this. Nothing nothing no reaction nothing no reaction no reaction then BAM he's outta control yelling at the kids!


He should stretch out his a-holeness over the day just like I do.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Anon Pink said:


> *SA, I think you're on to something. Have you ever done that? Held it in and then erupted at your H?*


 This thread would be the closest thing to eruptions I have...this is the only thing we've had conflict over in the past 5 yrs...I've been very open on TAM.. I've taken some Judgement hits for this....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...ations-too-high-husband-can-not-do-rough.html 

But really....my husband is wonderful...I'm just a little hard to please... we resolved this (or tried) by my making a Spice Jar..







.... but then...there it sits.... he never looks in it !...and really I put a lot of







into that....I was excited... anticipating.... after a time I make an issue of this....his lax.....I know he loves me dearly but yet I start to get  like *>>* "Why did I waste my time"....and I let him know...this is how I feel... and yes...the emotions are strong....as I talk... it might gather some heat and intensity saying HOW DA** much it means to me... 

So long as I do this before I get *REALLY steamed*, we can have FUN with it , a little feisty Playful from my end....bantering at him sarcastically ....I'll tell him point blank...if he doesn't look in that damn Jar soon & throw me down in the bed... I am going to beat his sorry a$$.... (steam let out)...he apologies...and I know he means it in that moment...why this is such a battle for him to do.. I will never understand.....

Our way of dealing....IF he can put up with me getting mad, I can put up with him falling down on this... He's not perfect, I am not perfect..but we still love deeply. 

One thing he has always given me...as jld coined it... is that *"active listening"*....caring, trying to understand...not leaving my side... I have always felt heard, cared for, loved...I can not express HOW MUCH this means to me.... 

But what if he was the type to put me down saying ...You are too emotional, belittle what is important TO ME...if he wanted to run to his cave...this would cause me great hurt, I could see resentment building with that....and it could cause cracks in our relationship over time...... 

It astounds me Avon Pink.... the way YOU WRITE and express here to others, very empathetic.... that you struggle with what you said here " JLD, your honesty amazes me! Really, emotional honesty is something I so struggle with. Emotional vulnerability scares the crap out of me. I know this, I try to be brave, but I hide in real life. I hide what hurts and I hide what scares me and I hide what makes me nervous. I don't hide FROM those things, I hide that I am terrified OF those things." 

I feel one of the reasons I haven't been afraid...and guessing for Jld too....is the way our husbands react to us.... we both are the type to wear our hearts on our sleeve...and our husband's embrace the vulnerability in us... .not so much a "there there now my sweet pea, it will be alright"... but a willingness to stay with us, talk it out....they understand this is what we need..(to be heard and understood) ...this is calming to a woman..... in effect, they have allowed vulnerability to be easy for us. 

Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Anon Pink

SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel one of the reasons I haven't been afraid...and guessing for Jld too....is the way our husbands react to us.... we both are the type to wear our hearts on our sleeve...and our husband's embrace the vulnerability in us... .not so much a "there there now my sweet pea, it will be alright"... but a willingness to stay with us, talk it out....they understand this is what we need..(to be heard and understood) ...this is calming to a woman..... in effect, they have allowed vulnerability to be easy for us.
> 
> Hope that makes sense.


Yup, perfect sense.

But what do I do about it?

I can't change him. I can't force him to be comfortable with emotion, with my emotion. After so many years together...ugh.


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> Yup, perfect sense.
> 
> But what do I do about it?
> 
> I can't change him. I can't force him to be comfortable with emotion, with my emotion. After so many years together...ugh.


AP, what do you think about going to an Active Listening training with your dh? Dh and I did that back in 2000, and I think it was good we went together. Dh uses those same skills at work, and it has been so helpful.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> AP, what do you think about going to an *Active Listening training *with your dh? Dh and I did that back in 2000, and I think it was good we went together. Dh uses those same skills at work, and it has been so helpful.


That sounds a great idea, but where do you find something like that to attend....When I was younger, I took a class for a 24 hr hotline -I was volunteering for....I remember having some







moments in that class....

I found this googling >>  ACTIVE LISTENING: THE WINDOW TO CLEAR COMMUNICATION

Article has a long list of Active Listening techniques explained...

*AvonPink...which of these does your husband give you ?..I think we all use these in our lives with people we care about ..depending on what is shared...it would be very healthy to implement more of these in our communication..* 



> o *Encouraging.* These are questions or statements that support the speaker’s sharing his or her feelings, e.g., “Go on, tell me more,” “I’m interested in what you’re thinking and feeling,” or “I hear what you’re saying.”
> 
> o *Clarifying.* Clarifying questions or statements, e.g., “What did you do after that happened?” “What was your response when your supervisor said that?”
> “Who else was present?” reflect that the listener is tracking what the speaker is saying and is interested. Cloke and Goldsmith advise the reader to be aware of our tone of voice and intention so that seeking clarification does not become probing interrogation.
> 
> o *Acknowledging.* These are statements which acknowledge, recognize and identify the feelings that the speaker is expressing without making any judgment about them. For example, statements such as “I can see you feel sad about that,” or “I can appreciate now why you may have felt angry about what your boss had told you” convey empathy and give permission for a greater depth of conversation without appearing manipulative or condescending.
> 
> o *Normalizing*. It is often helpful to convey to the speaker that what he or she is saying and experiencing is natural and normal. Statements such as “I think I might feel the way you do if that had happened to me” convey acceptance and normalcy.
> 
> o *Empathizing.* Empathizing statements place you, the listener, in the shoes of the speaker in order to better understand their feelings and perceptions. For instance, “I can appreciate why you may feel that way,” or “I can understand
> why you feel so strongly about [subject matter] because I experienced something similar in my life,” reflect that the basis for your understanding comes from a similar experience, reaction or feeling in your own life. Cloke and Goldsmith urge the reader not to say, “I know exactly how you feel,” because you don’t.
> 
> o *Soliciting.* These are questions designed to solicit advice and identify possible solutions such as “What do you think should be done about the kids and summer breaks?” or “What would you like to see happen?” or “Tell me more about why you think that would work.”
> 
> o *Mirroring*. Statements that mirror reflect back the emotions, affect, demeanor, body language, tone of voice, metaphors and even the breathing of the speaker. For example, if the speaker is loud and sitting in a defensive posture with arms crossed tightly in front of his chest, you could mirror his
> posture and tone as you reflect back his statement and then open up your own posture as you move toward an empathizing statement. The listener must take care that use of this technique is not misinterpreted as disrespect or mimicking.
> 
> o *Agreeing*. While it is important that communication be open, this does not mean that the listener and speaker must agree on everything being said. It is often helpful if the listener begins by saying, “I really agree with you about that,” and then moves on to, “What I think we disagree about is … .” This technique can lay the groundwork for an open dialogue even when there is disagreement. Often it will allay fears (of rejection) and mollify defensiveness. By first acknowledging there are common areas of agreement, the listener has signaled that the areas of disagreement are not so absolute.
> 
> o *Supplementing*. Supplementing statements are “yes, and … ” or “Let me build on that and see if we’re on the same page… ” or “Not only that … .” The listener therefore is omitting the all-too-common “yes, but” (the separating fence) in favor of the “yes, and” (we’re building together).
> 
> o *Inviting elaboration*. When the listener asks open-ended questions, it sends a signal to the speaker that you are listening and respecting their point of view. Ask the speaker to elaborate on her ideas or recommendations. What do you really want to know from or about this person?
> 
> o *Reframing*. Cloke and Goldsmith define “reframing” as “preserving the content of a communication but altering its form so it can be heard and possibly result in a solution.” In a conflict, reframing often takes “you” statements and changes them into “I” statements.
> 
> o *Responding*. Listening respectfully means responding to what the speaker has said and not using techniques which manipulate the speaker.
> 
> o *Summarizing*. This technique, in which the listener uses his or her own words to summarize what the speaker has said, conveys that that listener has heard what the speaker has said while providing the speaker with an opportunity to confirm, correct or change what he or she has stated.
> 
> o *Validating*. These statements recognize the speaker’s contribution to the conversation. For instance, the listener might tell the speaker, “I appreciate your willingness to talk to me about this,” or “I know it took a lot for you to be as open as you were and I want to acknowledge you for taking that risk.”


----------



## jld

Hi, SA. We did it through the La Leche League, but I think you have to be a member, and it has to be offered. 

This is a good question. I wish I had an answer!


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## Anon Pink

SA, the only technique he uses is 


> o Encouraging. These are questions or statements that support the speaker’s sharing his or her feelings, e.g., “Go on, tell me more,” “I’m interested in what you’re thinking and feeling,” or “I hear what you’re saying.”


He will say "oh........" Or "oh, no......?" Which is his way of acknowledging that he is listening but he has nothing to add so he wants the other person to keep talking.

That's it. He does none of the other listening techniques. I was trained in all of them.


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## jld

He sounds like a tough one, AP. Is he quiet in general, even with other people? Or is it just with you?


----------



## jld

I have caught some flack recently from people saying that I think too highly of my dh, and questioning whether or not I am a real person. Dh got a laugh out of reading that last one last night. He has to deal with me every day, including a day like yesterday, lol, and knows only too well how real I am. I think it would be good for me to talk about the downsides of my marriage and dh. 

And I do idealize him, so it is good for me to do a post focused just on his flaws. 

Dh is not a romantic man. I rarely get flowers or gifts. As the children have gotten older, I have been invited more often to restaurants, but it is still not a regular thing (guess it depends on how you define regular). So I got really excited Fr. night when he told me he would like to take me to a restaurant the following evening. It really felt special.

This lack of romance has sometimes made me feel out of step with other women I know. Most women have told me they got flowers when their children were born. I think I got flowers from my family after a few of my births, but never from dh. I asked him about it once, and he said he never thought of it. I think husbands do this in France, so I am not sure why he never did. We had all home births, but one, so maybe it was because he was busy taking care of the household while I rested? I don't know. It could also just be him.

And I remember being at a New Year's party with him once, with one of our babies. At midnight, when all the couples were embracing, dh was standing across the room, holding our baby, smiling at everyone. I felt kind of silly, standing alone, and a little sad that it had not occurred to him to come over to me. Dh can be kind of clueless that way. Mr. INTP.

Also, dh is not a spiffy dresser, or interested in anything like that. I am not sure he even notices. He always wears navy blue or black pants to work, and jeans at home. He wears dress shirts at work, but rarely a tie. It is always a flannel shirt at home (my farm boy), or a T shirt with a collar in the summer. I like the turtleneck look on men, with corduroy pants, but dh hates anything around his neck, so that is out. And he just likes jeans.

He does not dance. I don't, either. Last night the kids had one of those Let's Dance dvds on, and so dh and I picked up the controls and tried to do one of the couple dances. The kids were laughing their heads off. We are so uncoordinated. Glad someone enjoyed that. 

Both of us are average looking, nothing special. Dh is 6'2", 200 pounds. He really should lose 10 pounds, to be within the BMI normal weight limits. He wears glasses.

He used to play the saxophone when he was growing up. He loves music, but he has only played the sax twice for me, both times when I got it out for him. But he is all over the boys to practice piano. He says it's good for them.

He loves cycling, but more or less gave it up when our daughter was born. He really wanted to be involved in her care, and taking time to cycle just did not fit into his plan. I know he would love to do a cycling vacation in France someday, but I don't know when that will happen. I am not an athlete at all, and those hills in the Vosges look pretty intimidating. Maybe in some flat area . . .

He works long days, and then goes back to his apartment and does his exercise bike and studies German. We may do a foreign assignment in Germany, so he is learning the language. He does a lot of work there, so it is good to know it anyway.

The guys who work for him complain that he never invites them for coffee, or eats lunch with them, or really does anything socially with them. Dh gets to work at 6 and works straight through to 5:30 or 6. Then he sometimes gets up in the middle of the night from 2-3 for meetings with India or China. I don't think socializing even occurs to him.

They also complain that he does not believe in rewards. That is my dh. He expects hard work from everyone, all the time, and that the satisfaction from doing a job well will be reward enough for everyone. Our kids don't like that anymore than the guys at work.

One of the guys in India complained that while dh was all over technical issues at work, he would rarely get involved in personnel issues. Dh does not take HR issues personally, and does not understand why other people do. To him, you just let it roll off your back and get back to work. I don't think he understands why other people cannot just do that, too.

Dh really does not seek people out at all. He never suggests inviting anyone over or making other couple friends. He does call his parents twice a month.

Basically, dh is a hard worker and a family man. I asked him once to define himself, and he put his hand on his heart and said, "I am a Catholic man." He considered the priesthood as a teen, but decided he ultimately wanted to be married. I think he is disappointed that I don't trust religion, and told me recently that he would love it if we went to church. I then offered to go if he wanted, but he said he knows he is not home much, and that he knows the kids hate to go (they've gone a handful of times).

There was a girl in his village that he could have married. Her mom was his catechism teacher and her father was a farmer. I still feel kind of bad he did not marry her. His parents would have been so happy to have him right there in the village his whole life, farming with his father-in-law. She eventually became a nun.

I hope I have painted a boring, unappealing enough picture. 

I still can't help adoring him, though.


----------



## Anon Pink

Well I hope he knows to reward you!

To each his or her own. If it works for you then he's perfect for you.

I have gotten flowers about 5 times in nearly 30 years. I never got any sort of acknowledgment for "ushering forth" his offspring either and my guy can't dance, while I love to dance.

But, your H loves you well enough that you feel loved and fulfilled and that's all you need.


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## jld

Lol on the flowers, AP. 

You know, I was just thinking about that party, and of the maybe 4 other couples there, two have since divorced. One was married for 27 years and then had an affair with his co-worker, so his wife divorced him. And the hosts of the party, the woman left the man for her college boyfriend a few years ago. 

Everyone seemed so happy. I guess you just never know what can happen in life.

To be honest, I think dancing is fun, too. You know that saying, "Dance like no one is watching"? I hope someday I will have the confidence to do that.


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## Quant

Anon Pink said:


> Well I hope he knows to reward you!
> 
> To each his or her own. If it works for you then he's perfect for you.
> 
> I have gotten flowers about 5 times in nearly 30 years. I never got any sort of acknowledgment for "ushering forth" his offspring either and my guy can't dance, while I love to dance.
> 
> But, your H loves you well enough that you feel loved and fulfilled and that's all you need.


I don't really give rewards either its reward enough for her to get me as a husband. At least that's the attitude I present to her and she responds better to that then some guy who's a weak willed suck up.


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## jld

Quant said:


> I don't really give rewards either its reward enough for her to get me as a husband. At least that's the attitude I present to her and she responds better to that then some guy who's a weak willed suck up.


So that works for you, huh?

Dh tells me nice things about myself. He tries to build my self-confidence. But I think self-confidence has to come from within. And maybe some of us are just always going to have self-doubt.


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## Anon Pink

Quant said:


> I don't really give rewards either its reward enough for her to get me as a husband. At least that's the attitude I present to her and she responds better to that then some guy who's a weak willed suck up.


Quant, you have to do nice things for your wife on a regular basis. Does she never do nice things for you? Maybe you don't call it reward, but that is essentially what it is. Just tonight I folded his laundry and in return I got a back scratch. Nice things for nice people.


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## jld

Hey, good for you, AP!


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## Quant

Anon Pink said:


> Quant, you have to do nice things for your wife on a regular basis. Does she never do nice things for you? Maybe you don't call it reward, but that is essentially what it is. Just tonight I folded his laundry and in return I got a back scratch. Nice things for nice people.


Of course I do nice things for my wife but its never in exchange for something I suppose I'm a little to impulsive and inconsistent for that.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

jld said:


> You seem angry that I put the responsibility for the marriage on men.


Not angry, just noting the insults to men who act differently than you husband. I think pronouncing in sermons such absolutes can be very harmful. 



> I know this is hard to hear. It is hard for me to hear things that prick my conscience, too. Pride is a tough thing. It keeps us from growing. We are so busy defending ourselves and showing how we are right that we can't say, gee, what can I learn from this?


I don't think the only reason to disagree with you is because of pride. I was looking forward to reading your replies. But as this post confirms that you will dismiss any thoughts contrary to your perception, there is no point in further discussion on this.

Best of luck to you and your husband.


----------



## jld

Tall Average Guy said:


> Not angry, just noting the insults to men who act differently than you husband. I think pronouncing in sermons such absolutes can be very harmful.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think the only reason to disagree with you is because of pride. I was looking forward to reading your replies. But as this post confirms that you will dismiss any thoughts contrary to your perception, there is no point in further discussion on this.
> 
> Best of luck to you and your husband.


Don't write me off so quickly, TAG. Help me understand your view. I promise I will try to understand.


----------



## Anon Pink

Tall Average Guy said:


> Not angry, just noting the insults to men who act differently than you husband. I think pronouncing in sermons such absolutes can be very harmful.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think the only reason to disagree with you is because of pride. I was looking forward to reading your replies. But as this post confirms that you will dismiss any thoughts contrary to your perception, there is no point in further discussion on this.
> 
> Best of luck to you and your husband.


That's interesting that you see it as insulting. I'm trying to come up with an example for wives. Like if a husband writes that all women should...IDK...greet their husbands at the door when they get home from work. If more women did this .... I'm not sure I would take that as an insult if I didn't do that for my husband. 

Maybe I'm missing something here...


----------



## Quant

Anon Pink said:


> That's interesting that you see it as insulting. I'm trying to come up with an example for wives. Like if a husband writes that all women should...IDK...greet their husbands at the door when they get home from work. If more women did this .... I'm not sure I would take that as an insult if I didn't do that for my husband.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something here...


I expect my wife to give me sex just about whenever I want and in exchange I'm responsible for the health of the relationship. I also expect my wife to stay skinny and attractive for me.


----------



## Anon Pink

Quant said:


> I expect my wife to give me sex just about whenever I want and in exchange I'm responsible for the health of the relationship. I also expect my wife to stay skinny and attractive for me.


While my sympathies go out to your wife, I still don't feel personally insulted, nor that woman kind has been insulted.


----------



## Quant

Anon Pink said:


> While my sympathies go out to your wife, I still don't feel personally insulted, nor that woman kind has been insulted.


That's the point,you shouldn't be we all have expectations in a relationship.


----------



## jld

TAG, do you remember on the pick a fight thread, when we first started to disagree on this, I asked you to tell me your story, because I thought that I could then understand where you were coming from better? I would still really like to hear it. 

Do you feel I was attacking you? To me, I am just vigorously stating my opinion. 

I really think we could resolve this if you would come and talk to me. Please.


----------



## jld

Quant said:


> That's the point,you shouldn't be we all have expectations in a relationship.


Yes, we should. Ideally, this would be laid out at the beginning, so each would have at least a general idea what to expect. And then, of course, modifications would be made going along.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *And I do idealize him, so it is good for me to do a post focused just on his flaws*.


 I think this is Good... when I meet people, if they seem to good to be True, ya know.. you're always wondering...*where's the DIRT* ... and a little dirt ain't all bad.. how I look at life anyway.. so long as it's not "criminal" anyway. 



> Dh is not a romantic man. *I rarely get flowers or gifts.* As the children have gotten older, I have been invited more often to restaurants, but it is still not a regular thing (guess it depends on how you define regular). So I got really excited Fr. night when he told me he would like to take me to a restaurant the following evening. It really felt special.


 Happy to hear you are enjoying going out to eat more... always enjoyable...









When it comes to Romance, many seem to equate flowers & gifts...I have a different way of viewing Romance... 



> This lack of romance has sometimes made me feel out of step with other women I know. Most women have told me they got flowers when their children were born. * I think I got flowers from my family after a few of my births, but never from dh. I asked him about it once, and he said he never thought of it*. I think husbands do this in France, so I am not sure why he never did. We had all home births, but one, so maybe it was because he was busy taking care of the household while I rested? I don't know. *It could also just be him*.


I never got flowers from mine either..







...but I have a good reason...you can get a chuckle out of this.......when we got married...(probably even before).... I told him to NOT waste his $$ on Flowers...unless they had Roots, better yet *>>* pick them in the back yard (hey it's the thought that counts...we were always taking country walks anyway)......One time I even suggested... Buy me a TREE... He looks at me & tells me to buy my own tree.. (I was always planting new trees in our yard...like these red buds...



I've always looked at His Time/ his TOUCH, our togetherness -taking those country walks, cuddling up watching a movie together....this was our Romance...







..



> *And I remember being at a New Year's party with him once, with one of our babies. At midnight, when all the couples were embracing, dh was standing across the room, holding our baby, smiling at everyone. I felt kind of silly, standing alone, and a little sad that it had not occurred to him to come over to me. Dh can be kind of clueless that way. Mr. INTP*.


 A kiss would have been nice -even holding the baby. 



> *He does not dance. I don't, either. Last night the kids had one of those Let's Dance dvds on, and so dh and I picked up the controls and tried to do one of the couple dances. The kids were laughing their heads off. We are so uncoordinated. Glad someone enjoyed that*.


 But you tried ! ...and had a little fun...we've never been dancers either, but had lots of fun with that Father /Daughter dance I threw for his "over the hill" B-day. Just gotta laugh at yourselves now & then. 



> *He loves cycling, but more or less gave it up when our daughter was born. He really wanted to be involved in her care, and taking time to cycle just did not fit into his plan. I know he would love to do a cycling vacation in France someday, but I don't know when that will happen. I am not an athlete at all, and those hills in the Vosges look pretty intimidating. Maybe in some flat area* . . .


 Some of these things you are mentioning ..playing his Sax and the biking... these are interests.. not anything bad... or like flaws. 



> *He works long days, and then goes back to his apartment and does his exercise bike and studies German. We may do a foreign assignment in Germany, so he is learning the language. He does a lot of work there, so it is good to know it anyway.
> 
> The guys who work for him complain that he never invites them for coffee, or eats lunch with them, or really does anything socially with them. Dh gets to work at 6 and works straight through to 5:30 or 6. Then he sometimes gets up in the middle of the night from 2-3 for meetings with India or China. I don't think socializing even occurs to him.
> 
> They also complain that he does not believe in rewards. That is my dh. He expects hard work from everyone, all the time, and that the satisfaction from doing a job well will be reward enough for everyone. Our kids don't like that anymore than the guys at work*.


 Don't think I'd want him to be my boss.. even though he'd probably be quite the asset to any company -running it very efficient with a great return!



Quant said:


> That's the point,you shouldn't be *we all have expectations in a relationship.*


This is very true, and marital expectations are so varied from couple to couple...seen a post last night I wanted to respond to- about how the wife likes her husband to go to bed with her & he was asking why this is so important to women.. even when they don't want sex...General Answers : intimacy, holding, it's comforting to the woman, unless she is worried he is looking at porn (I guess)... but really.. me & mine have certain ideas on what is very very important to us -that others might think is too stringent...(like our willing transparency) whereas another couple will have stringent controls on Facebook etc where we'd be pretty darn liberal -due to that high transparency.. and this works for us ! 

Jld doesn't mind and still adores her husband being like a Workaholic, this would never work for me , my adoration would run cold, I'd feel like a lonely desperate housewife... I like lots of "man time". But I think it's great she feels as she does!


----------



## committed4ever

JLD, I said I would elaborate on if I idealize my husband on this thread.* This is the definition:* to make ideal; represent in an ideal form or character; exalt to an ideal perfection or excellence.* Now I’m somewhat skeptical.* Yes, I do emphasize his positive traits on TAM more than his negative, but I’m well aware of the negatives. Just as I’m sure he’s aware of my negative traits. Some of them I address (like the not calling when away) but some I just let go because they are not dealbreakers.* The not call was the worst because he refuse to do anything about that no matter what. I said it was puzzling because when we have discuss other things he did that maybe were not hurtful, but I didn’t like, he did something about it, unless he felt like there was a good reason not to.

He likes peace in our home, and so do I, and I do everything I can to provide an atmosphere that he loves to come home to.* When I say he likes peace, if we argue about something, he doesn’t yell or call names, and he expects me not to do that either.* There have been a few times that I have had a meltdown about issues but if I resort to yelling, he will definitely call me on it right away.* He will not leave the room but he will insist that I not yell since he’s not yelling at me.* When we first got married, I had these almost right away, and frequently, but he was not having it.* It got shut down quick.* Was that a fault? I don’t know, but it did cause a course correction right away. See, I was a diva, princess, and drama queen when we met (it was my two older sister’s fault – that’s my story and I’m sticking to it!), but he treated me so good before we got married, that that side of me never came out.* We never lived together or even slept together before marriage (not saying we didn’t have sex, just didn’t sleep together – mostly sneaking sex).

So as you can imagine, living together in a total dump (to save money for a house) along with just marriage itself, brought out that side of me pretty quickly.* And he shut it down pretty quickly.* We talked about his desire for a marriage where we respected each other and we discuss our differences without being disrespectful, that he consider we were a team and we should always have each other’s back and build each other up and not tear each other and the relationship down. I bought into that.* This was probably within the first 2 months or so of our marriage.

There’s no pretty way to say this but my husband was a player before our relationship.* He had that lifestyle for a short period of time (maybe 3 or 4 years), but he was deep into it.* He is very, very handsome, but moreso than that, he has the “it” factor.* I guess he discovered quickly how easy it was for him to get girls/women and he exploited it. He pretty much felt it was just empty and he wanted out of it. His desire became the total opposite, to have a wife and have a family.* He was my first and only boyfriend, outside of some early teen puppy love.* So when we first had this stumbling block, he addressed it right away and after I made a course correction, we slipped right back into the “honeymoon.”

Throughout our marriage we have* had that type of dynamic where we really don’t argue a lot, try to be kind to each other and to accept each other for who we are.* We both have the same love language so it is easy to for us to express love to each other and to feel love from each other.* So I guess in spite of his faults, I do not make a big deal out of them and instead I choose to show appreciate for his positive attribute.* I try to have his back and to provide a loving and peaceful home dynamic for him, and I feel he does the same. For the most part, I can do this without feeling like I’m suppressing my emotions or anything.* I try to think it through and ask myself is this worth making this an issue or not.* But if I am suppressing or feeling hurt, I have to bring it up and discuss it, and we usually can work through it.

I hope I have gotten across my thoughts clearly in response to your question!

*


----------



## jld

It sounds like you have a beautiful marriage, committed. Thanks so much for your post.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *committed4ever said*: *I said I would elaborate on if I idealize my husband on this thread.* This is the definition:* to make ideal; represent in an ideal form or character; exalt to an ideal perfection or excellence.* Now I’m somewhat skeptical.* Yes, I do emphasize his positive traits on TAM more than his negative, but I’m well aware of the negatives. Just as I’m sure he’s aware of my negative traits*.


I looked Idealize up.... also found this...



> *1*.regard or represent as perfect or better than in reality. _"Helen's idealized accounts of their life together"_
> 
> *synonyms:* romanticize, glorify, be unrealistic about, look at through rose-colored glasses, paint a rosy picture of, glamorize; deify, put on a pedestal".


It seems to me...IF as a poster here...one emphasizes too much of the good...the Marital bliss... people question, you might even get a little slack...too hard to believe...trying to paint a Fairy Tale...

But then -push it the other direction, share too much of the dark side...about yourself, your faults, your past, or HIS......being very open to the bad, the ugly at times/ mistakes made ......then someone will surely remind you of your shortcomings (using another post you did somewhere) ...I don't know...yet it gives more balance, relatability (is that a word?)/ more believable...

I still think it's best to just represent yourself the way IT IS...(as we live it....how we genuinely feel).... *but understand others will have their opinions....and their differences in what they would or wouldn't handle, or even put up with... the same as we have ours..*..

I consider my husband more Patient, better with the kids even... I would say he loves more unconditionally than I do also...I have very little BAD to say about this man...this really IS the truth... but then he's the type of guy women don't go for.. they would probably find him Too TAME, too PREDICTABLE.... too BETA ...(so these are his shortcomings one could say)...

Then there is me... I have my faults (I can be critical in the moment, hard to please, I may crack the whip







.... but he'd be the 1st to say >> I'm FUN, I'm creative..there is never a dull moment... this holds the flame for him...makes up for when I might get out of sorts now & then...ya know.... I can be a feisty one...but he handles me so well...he gets me to laugh at myself.. It's just the coolest thing, makes me want to kiss him all over.....and I can get those RISES out of him...this is part of our dynamics... 

A few yrs back, there was a thread on Pedestals here...







so we started talking about it one night in the bathroom....he told me he's always had me on one...I tried to explain to him how this is NOT healthy, and shouldn't be...that he shouldn't think I am better than him...all the stuff that is wrong with pedestalization...I was reading articles on it that day......but he can be a stubborn one....he acknowledged what I was saying.. he gets it..

Yet he still insisted I deserve one.. do you know what a silly conversation that was...me arguing for him to take me off this pedestal...we spent some time on this... so I just resolved the darn thing by saying...well I have him on one too..(and really he is my everything.. he's my Rock... the wind beneath my wings, all of it- sappy as I can be).... so









I really can't say this has hurt us... he just IS the "white knight type" what can I do... beat it out of [email protected]# 

So long as I don't ABUSE his Love / his adoration... taking him for granted.. my giving back, as he gives to me..one could say this is our expression of Romance...and why we FIT ....but at the same time... why we wouldn't "FIT" or work well with others...


----------



## jld

SA, thank you so much for that beautiful post. You are a secure woman who teaches, but so gently, so lovingly. You are a real mom, SA.

With people questioning whether or not I was real recently, I thought I had to say some "bad" things about dh. I am so sensitive. And I do tend to just gloss over his shortcomings. They are just not what I think of when I think of him. I just love him so much.

And when someone has been so good to you, it is hard not to just see the good. And I think the things that matter to me are just not the things that matter to other people.

I needed a man with great character and fine intellect. And that is what I got. That is what brings me peace. 

I keep trying to share the message here of looking for good character in a partner, but I don't think it is a popular one. I really don't want people to suffer, but it maybe inevitable if the main thing they are looking for in a partner is the packaging.

Thank you for continuing to share your love story with us, SA. It is always so heartwarming to read your posts.


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## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *With people questioning whether or not I was real recently, I thought I had to say some "bad" things about dh. I am so sensitive.*


 I read those...thinking you was a student doing research ...I was thinking... even if it was...so what...I don't get it... Until a poster has been here awhile to show "a forum personality" (and this will take shape).... I would give any newcomer the benefit of the doubt....most come here angry  & get beat up for how they post -the words they use.....I guess struggling with my own inner anger in my teen yrs...had it's role...that people sometimes talk (even type) before their intellect clicks in....I can think of worse things in life. 



> And when someone has been so good to you, it is hard not to just see the good.
> And I think the things that matter to me are just not the things that matter to other people.


 This comment right there is the







of it... There's been a # of threads asking women what they look for in a man/ a husband... and our* deal breakers*......some of the things on MY TOP would NOT be the things on another woman's top... Some of my deal breakers (a Workaholic would be one-I'd rather live in a country barn with Hot Romance!)...so yeah...we're just all geared differently.... And some would rather eat dirt than have a couple kids...and it's OK!

It does make life and relationships ever so interesting!



> *I needed a man with great character and fine intellect. And that is what I got. That is what brings me peace.*


 What I have found is this... those with shining character (& people disagree on this too, by the way)...are not always as entertaining, as alluring, as exciting, as adventurous as some of the







.....who, often times, suck in the "good" character department..(but maybe they can race a mean car, howl a guitar etc)....they'll still have women falling off their arms....so what can you do..... It's what makes the world go 'round.


----------



## Lyris

As I was one of the people who questioned your sincerity, I'll just let you know, it had nothing at all to do with your portrayal of your husband. It was the fact that so many of your threads were general topics with no personal question or story in the OP that raised my suspicions. It's what lazy journalists, writers and social researchers do.


----------



## jld

Lyris said:


> As I was one of the people who questioned your sincerity, I'll just let you know, it had nothing at all to do with your portrayal of your husband. It was the fact that so many of your threads were general topics with no personal question or story in the OP that raised my suspicions. It's what lazy journalists, writers and social researchers do.


Okay, thanks.


----------



## jld

I'm pretty sure my dh owns my soul, SA. The connection is that strong. I just think I belong to him. 

And that's why he can work far away, or abroad, or whatever, because there is, well, it's beyond trust. Dd told me the other day, "You and Dad are one."

You know, people say that, but I wonder if they really are. Are they really completely aligned with one another, each wanting harmony above all else?

It's so hard for me to admit that AP was right, that dh neglected my needs when I was younger. I want to make excuses for him, but he told me the other day that when he realized he couldn't solve my depression or whatever other problems, he just kind of gave up and decided to ignore it. It wasn't too bad, he decided, and I always did well enough, I guess.

I feel kind of sad about that, but it doesn't change my relationship with him. We are in this for the long term.

I feel like TAM has been an emotional boot camp for me. I cannot tell you how much I have cried since I have been here. Just soul-touching crying. I am exhausted sometimes.

And I keep trying to spread the message of love. That is what all that attachment parenting talk is -- just trying to tell people that people need love. They need their needs met. Nobody can meet everyone's needs, but we could all do a little more. We could listen a little more, be a little more compassionate. Stop bashing on wayward spouses and BPD women. Start telling people who are lazy and complacent to at least be honest with themselves about how selfish they are.

There are some real angels here. You are one of them, SA. I am so glad to have found this place. I am really growing here. Honestly, I cannot thank TAM enough.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *I'm pretty sure my dh owns my soul, SA. The connection is that strong. I just think I belong to him.*


 I got that book you suggested in the mail the other day '*The Good Marriage - How & Why Love Lasts*"...explaining the 5 different types...*1)* Romantic, *2) *Rescue Marriage, *3)* Companionate Marriage, *4) *Traditional Marriage and *5)* Renegotiating Marriage...

You mention the soul connection.. I started reading about the Romantic Marriage (why I wanted to buy it & what it spoke on the Traditional)... it says 15% is in this group, It talked how people speak of their meeting as preordained or an answer to prayer (you said your husband prayed.... in our case I prayed)..like they are connected by a magic that transcends time & space. Your mentioning *the SOUL* made me think of this.



> *You know, people say that, but I wonder if they really are. Are they really completely aligned with one another, each wanting harmony above all else?*


 We all want harmony, but we can't do this by pushing our own needs down, only a truly selfless person can do this.. I can tell you this... I am NOT one of those! I may admire people like that.. but I don't think many of us are this way.



> *It's so hard for me to admit that AP was right, that dh neglected my needs when I was younger. I want to make excuses for him, but he told me the other day that when he realized he couldn't solve my depression or whatever other problems, he just kind of gave up and decided to ignore it. It wasn't too bad, he decided, and I always did well enough, I guess*.


 See I think BOTH of your experiences would have been very very difficult.... I don't honestly think I could handle a depressed spouse... it would drag me down...and I'd become frustrated... But his not being here, I know that would make me depressed... double edged sword on that situation. My husband could have taken an "over the road" truck driving job when he worked in that Grocery store/ more $$... but I told him straight out, I'd miss his A$$ too much & it wouldn't be good...he felt the same -scrapped that idea real fast.



> *I feel kind of sad about that, but it doesn't change my relationship with him. We are in this for the long term*.


 This just shows you DON'T hold on to Grudges, resentments, but deal with them, and look to the future... Good for you --and HIM!... Some people have divorced over resentments that they could not overcome.. Very 



> *I feel like TAM has been an emotional boot camp for me. I cannot tell you how much I have cried since I have been here. Just soul-touching crying. I am exhausted sometimes.*


 Oh my, posting here shouldn't be that stressful - damn girl! Go take a bubble bath right now.


----------



## jld

I see a therapist every two weeks, and I told her today how much I have learned from the forum, and from the individuals I pm. Some people challenged me recently on lacking confidence, and I really benefited from that.

I think I am finally getting the value of a forum. You just say what you think. You don't worry about everybody's feelings. You don't try to hurt people's feelings, but you don't take it all personally, either. Who knows where people are coming from, their backgrounds, emotions at the moment, etc.?

I have a very open mind, and part of that is always being aware that I could be wrong, that someone else might know a better way. I am always testing what I know against opinions that are different. And the more confident a person sounds, the more I tend to defer to that person.

But that is probably not the way to go. Some people just have a loud voice.

And after a while, you do start to see who really has insight, and who is just complaining. And that two very different approaches could be good in their own way.

I started that wayward thread on general because I think there is a lot of self-righteousness on the part of some folks. And I think it is always wise to put yourself in the role of the underdog, and see how it feels. Is that how you'd like to be treated?

The problem is that the betrayed spouse thinks they never would have done it, and so why would they have compassion and seek understanding? They are just mad, and may never be able to forgive.

And maybe I would be the same way! Who knows, unless you go through it?


----------



## jld

Okay, upon finishing up that wayward thread, I finally see that basically what we have is two sides very much in pain. Two very, very hurting sides. What I did not know when I started is that both sides need compassion.

And really, who does not in life? We are all carrying pain. We all have it. Who does not know sorrow?

I know we get scared of emotion. But emotion can help us grow. We can learn from our anger and fear and sadness. Especially if it spurs more conversation, and not just cuts it off.

I am really glad for that thread. I did not realize how much both sides were hurting. And I am so sorry for all that pain.


----------



## norajane

jld said:


> *Okay, upon finishing up that wayward thread, I finally see that basically what we have is two sides very much in pain. Two very, very hurting sides. What I did not know when I started is that both sides need compassion.*
> 
> And really, who does not in life? We are all carrying pain. We all have it. Who does not know sorrow?
> 
> I know we get scared of emotion. But emotion can help us grow. We can learn from our anger and fear and sadness. Especially if it spurs more conversation, and not just cuts it off.
> 
> *I am really glad for that thread. I did not realize how much both sides were hurting. * And I am so sorry for all that pain.


You started that thread saying that Wayward Spouses need more compassion. Now you are saying that you learned that *both *sides need compassion.

Are you saying that, before your wayward thread, you did not believe that Betrayed Spouses need compassion? And you did not realize that Betrayed Spouses were hurting? 

:wtf:


----------



## jld

norajane said:


> You started that thread saying that Wayward Spouses need more compassion. Now you are saying that you learned that *both *sides need compassion.
> 
> Are you saying that, before your wayward thread, you did not believe that Betrayed Spouses need compassion? And you did not realize that Betrayed Spouses were hurting?
> 
> :wtf:


I'm clueless, norajane. 

When I started that thread, it was because I had met some wayward wives here, and they just seemed so nice. And then I read some posts over on the CWI board, and everyone just seemed so harsh on wayward wives. So I felt bad for them, and thought I would start the thread.

Are you a Betrayed Spouse, norajane?


----------



## jld

And while I wait for norajane's response . . .

Dh is on his way home. Should be here by ten. Leaving for Asia Sat. am. I think he's gone all day tomorrow.

I'm just glad he'll be here tonight. It's been a long week.


----------



## jld

The more I read on TAM, the more I realize how what matters in a marriage is what matters to the two people in it. People come from such different backgrounds, and have such different definitions of what is satisfaction in terms of sex, money, child rearing, etc. 

We all have our own values born out of our innate personalities and life experiences. We know what brings us comfort. It doesn't have to be the same for each person. We just don't have to agree. And we don't have to try to justify ourselves, or even explain ourselves if we don't want to.

It is interesting to hear different perspectives. And so many topics come up that I would never have thought about otherwise.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> The more I read on TAM, the more I realize how *what matters in a marriage is what matters to the two people in it. People come from such different backgrounds, and have such different definitions of what is satisfaction in terms of sex, money, child rearing, etc*.
> 
> *We all have our own values born out of our innate personalities and life experiences. We know what brings us comfort. It doesn't have to be the same for each person. *We just don't have to agree. And we don't have to try to justify ourselves, or even explain ourselves if we don't want to.
> 
> It is interesting to hear different perspectives. And so many topics come up that I would never have thought about otherwise.










......everything you spoke here.. is just so true...that's the reality... we are all so very very very different.....I can't remember if I posted the "*Different drums for different Drummers*" saying to capture this....I'll post it if you want... it's out of one of my temperament books.. 

So many variables...depending our our temperaments, our love languages , our lover styles, if we are more the homebody type or extroverted social animal... if we more "enjoy the simple things" or are success driven... country or city folk.... vanilla or Superman flavor sexually ...old fashioned/ more traditional vs Modern living/ if we need a cave/ more privacy or are the open book type...spiritually minded or find that all Fluff..and it goes on & on & on...

When I came here, I wanted to change my husband in 1 area....the more I read...listening to the minds of MEN... what turned them on/ and off.. listening to what women wanted.. the more I realized what I was seeking - this sort of man would probably NOT be attracted to MY TYPE of women ! YIKES...and this could have hindered US in a bad bad way... with me feeling I had to push a part of myself down in order to turn him on... NOPE.. that would suck big time... so I had this growing appreciation for my husband born out of reading here... 

So that was pretty cool !

Yes..lots of this here...


----------



## jld

My goodness, it has been a tough week. 

Dh will be home from a two week trip to Asia tomorrow. He left Mumbai earlier today, and is headed for the U.S. Before that he was in Hong Kong, and China.

He will be with us until Monday, and then he will be back to work in another state, coming home for the weekend. And then a week later, he heads to Germany for two weeks. Whew.

Normally I am pretty good about it, but since I have been on TAM, it has been harder. I think it's because I am learning so much here, and I have been growing. Growth for me is usually painful. I find something I am not doing well, and then I get all nervous, and insecure, and investigate it like crazy, and put some of it into practice. And I am constantly asking myself if I am doing it well enough.

And I would normally go to dh for encouragement and support, but not only has he not been here, he was not often available on FaceTime, either. Lots of meetings. Super lonely for his wife.

So not only was I dealing with loneliness, but insecurity, too. What fun! A toxic brew.

I reached out to friends, and they were amazing. Talk about a lifeline. I really cannot thank them enough, and I would actually like dh to thank them, too.  And I hope I will be able to help them, too, someday.

Have you had times of great challenge, when you found yourself more or less alone? How did you cope?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> Normally I am pretty good about it, but since I have been on TAM, it has been harder. *I think it's because I am learning so much here, and I have been growing. Growth for me is usually painful. I find something I am not doing well, and then I get all nervous, and insecure, and investigate it like crazy, and put some of it into practice. And I am constantly asking myself if I am doing it well enough.*


 Much introspection there jld...sounds like a melancholy trait for sure.. Nothing wrong with that! If you might share, can you list a few things you have learned here -that you want to carry with you...just curious ! 



> *And I would normally go to dh for encouragement and support, but not only has he not been here, he was not often available on FaceTime, either. Lots of meetings. Super lonely for his wife*.


 Do you at least talk a little each day ? I sure hope so.. 



> *I reached out to friends, and they were amazing. Talk about a lifeline. I really cannot thank them enough, and I would actually like dh to thank them, too.  And I hope I will be able to help them, too, someday.
> 
> Have you had times of great challenge, when you found yourself more or less alone? How did you cope?*


 Talking to people, friends, family..you need this in your life.. and to get out and do some things...even more so with your husband gone sooo sooo much... I feel for you here..I guess you have adapted over the years..... I wonder every time he leaves, do you get emotional ? 

The only big challenge for me was not being able to conceive.... I was grouchy, bi*ched a lot - poor husband.. heck my poor friends had to deal with me too....not my best years.. I'm sure ALL were jumping up & down when I finally got pregnant just so they wouldn't hear me anymore...I was so focused on this *1 *thing...tunnel vision is all I had... I used to pray over scriptures -believing.. one was the persistent Widow story...









basically how this woman was an irritant, she kept going back to this Judge pleading her case and he got so sick of her, that he granted her -her wish... Nice huh!

With all your kids there by your side.. this has to help some, fill the days, a purpose...as YOU are so needed yourself !


----------



## jld

I have not written on my thread in so long. My goodness! And thank you to SA for always leaving a kind, thoughtful note on whatever I have posted. No wonder you are the TAM Homecoming Queen!

Well, dh and I took a few days this last week to go out to California and see some friends. We really enjoyed that. They live near Carmel. We did the 17 Mile Drive, and really enjoyed the coastal scenery on 101, too. Funny to see cows grazing next to the ocean!

And we spent an afternoon walking around San Francisco, where we had not been since 1993. Who knew it would take us so long to get back there?

We were walking around Union Square and I had to go to the bathroom. We stopped at Saks Fifth Avenue, a store we don't have in our part of the country, and on my way to the Ladies Lounge, I just could not help noticing all the beautiful clothes. I am not any kind of a clotheshorse, but I think I liked just about everything I saw. And so I went to look at a price tag . . . $3500 for one dress! I dropped the tag immediately. No wonder all the clothes were so beautiful! For that kind of money, they certainly should be!

That trip this past week, just five days away from our kids, was one of just two that I can remember taking away from our children. Back in 2005, we flew to Paris and dropped the 3 older kids with dh's parents, and then spent a few days in the Czech Republic. It was a work trip, though, and I really only had about an hour a day with dh. Still, we were without kids (well, I was about 5 mos. pregnant, lol), so it was time alone. And one night last Nov. we went to a hotel by ourselves.

I can really see why couples like to get away without the kids. It was so peaceful. We could talk to each other without anyone hearing or interrupting. We could have sex in the afternoon and nobody heard anything. We had just the two of us to take care of, and could really focus on each other. What a treat.

So next year, when dd18 is again on spring break, we will probably take another trip, just the two of us. Maybe to Hawaii. 

I really did miss ds5, though. He is my baby, and I am not sure what I will do when he goes to France this summer with the other kids for two months. They have to go that long to really get immersed. Dh is just not around often enough to get enough French into the kids. But dh's parents don't speak English, so there the kids get plenty of language exposure and practice, for sure. And dh said we could fly over for a week if I am just missing ds5 too much.

As long as I am updating the thread, I just want to say that I really feel like I have grown from being on TAM. I just feel so much more secure than before. I think on TAM, we learn to just be ourselves, to just accept ourselves the way we are. This cannot help but have a good effect on our marriages.

Dh is more affectionate and attentive than he used to be. I learned here that you can get that to happen; you just have to be kind of insistent on it, and maybe appeal to your friends for help. 

And I am so grateful to the people I have met here. I have learned so much. And I continue to learn so much. And have come to care, to genuinely care, about many people here. I think about you when I am offline, and hope the best for you. I worry about you when I don't see you for a while.

Little did I know what these last six months had in store for me when typing in something like "dependent on husband" on Google last Sept. 30 . . . 

And that is another thing. When I typed that in that night, alone at the keyboard with the kids in bed, dh over in Germany on business, I was thinking there was something wrong with me. I was wondering why I couldn't handle my son's cancer and my other son's seizures on my own. Why I was always leaning on my dh, relying on him for support, in a culture that tells us we should be fully independent and not need anyone . . . who knew that months later I would realize there is nothing wrong with me, that that is just who I am, and I just have to accept myself the way I am. 

That doesn't mean anyone else has to be like me, but I don't have to be like anyone else, either. And I am not sure any of us can change who we fundamentally are, anyway. Best to just accept ourselves, and be grateful for the people who come into our life who can accept us, too, and who we can really appreciate and offer our caring to.

I think humans want so much to love others, to extend hope and caring. We don't want people to hurt. We want them to heal and thrive. We want the best for them, even if we all do that a little differently.

This is what I have learned on TAM (so far, and among other things, lol). I have grown a lot this winter. And I am grateful.

Happy Spring!


----------



## Anon Pink

Ahhhh, our work here is done ladies.

JLD what a lovely update! I am thrilled you and DH went away together. How wonderful! When your kids go to France to spend time with their grandparents, of course you will miss them! It's always easier when it's the parents who go away as opposed to when the kids go away. Perhaps it would be good to make a bunch of plans for yourself, keeping busy doing stuff you can't when they're all under foot. You know like taking a hot bath for two hours with soft music playing? 

I'm especially glad to hear your husband has heard you and is stepping up the affection and attention. It makes such a difference!

I honestly didn't think my feelings would return the way they have. But affection and attention and sexy good times path the way through a lot of pain.

Here's to our men being OUR MEN!


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> I'm especially glad to hear your husband has heard you and is stepping up the affection and attention. It makes such a difference!
> 
> I honestly didn't think my feelings would return the way they have. But affection and attention and sexy good times path the way through a lot of pain.
> 
> Here's to our men being OUR MEN!


Hear, hear! To our men! With much love!

I am so glad to hear things are going so well for you and Mr. Pink. I read your whole thread in private a few months ago (!). What a happy, heart-warming ending. You are giving hope to a lot of people.

And I think I speak for many women (and men) here when I tell you how very much you help us all. 

And yes, I am going to enjoy the break this summer very much -- but may still sneak over to France to hug and kiss my little ds5! Lol!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> And I am so grateful to the people I have met here. I have learned so much. And I continue to learn so much. And have come to care, to genuinely care, about many people here. I think about you when I am offline, and hope the best for you.* I worry about you when I don't see you for a while.*


 Yes, you really do -taking the time to pm me when I went missing for just 2 days...(probably a record for me)...that made me ... that you noticed even !



> Little did I know what these last six months had in store for me when typing in something like "dependent on husband" on Google last Sept. 30 . .


 Your presence here has been a breathe of fresh air for some ..you always show a kind heart...I'll give you that...I've wanted to argue with you -but all it would do is make ME look bad, cause I am not as compassionate and caring as you would be.. I tend to take a "tough love" view to many things.. you've been a breath of fresh air though, bringing your perspective.. some very controversial threads you have started ! 



> And that is another thing. When I typed that in that night, alone at the keyboard with the kids in bed, dh over in Germany on business, I was thinking there was something wrong with me. *I was wondering why I couldn't handle my son's cancer and my other son's seizures on my own. Why I was always leaning on my dh, relying on him for support, in a culture that tells us we should be fully independent and not need anyone . . . who knew that months later I would realize there is nothing wrong with me, that that is just who I am, and I just have to accept myself the way I am. *


 Oh my Goodness.. SO NORMAL.. I've felt you are too sacrificial and very strong for being alone so much..and doing all you do, holding your family together.. you have more strength than you have been giving yourself credit for. 



> *That doesn't mean anyone else has to be like me, but I don't have to be like anyone else, either. And I am not sure any of us can change who we fundamentally are, anyway. Best to just accept ourselves, and be grateful for the people who come into our life who can accept us, too, and who we can really appreciate and offer our caring to.*


Very well said !



> *I think humans want so much to love others, to extend hope and caring. We don't want people to hurt. We want them to heal and thrive. We want the best for them, even if we all do that a little differently*.


 Would be a beautiful world if this were true... I remember that post where you said you are an Idealist.... Me - call me the Realist....your words remind me of Lennon's Imagine


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes, you really do -taking the time to pm me when I went missing for just 2 days...(probably a record for me)...that made me ... that you noticed even !
> 
> Of course I noticed! SA, you are the first regular poster I noticed on TAM! I wanted to meet you. I appreciated your kindness so much.
> 
> And your posts are like lovely presents, custom-made for each one of us. Thank you so much!
> 
> Your presence here has been a breathe of fresh air for some ..you always show a kind heart...I'll give you that...I've wanted to argue with you -but all it would do is make ME look bad, cause I am not as compassionate and caring as you would be.. I tend to take a "tough love" view to many things.. you've been a breath of fresh air though, bringing your perspective.. some very controversial threads you have started !
> 
> Argue with me! Challenge me; that is how I can grow. We learn from criticism, too. Don't you think criticism is a gift? It sharpens our mind when we have to think about an issue from someone else's point of view, no?
> 
> Oh my Goodness.. SO NORMAL.. I've felt you are too sacrificial and very strong for being alone so much..and doing all you do, holding your family together.. you have more strength than you have been giving yourself credit for.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> Would be a beautiful world if this were true... I remember that post where you said you are an Idealist.... Me - call me the Realist....your words remind me of Lennon's Imagine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for sharing that! I enjoyed listening to that song. It has been a while since I heard it.
> 
> Don't you think we are both idealistic and realistic, SA, as the mothers of many children? We are not really that naive, but we are not jaded, either. And I think we both have very loving hearts.
> 
> Many hugs,
> 
> jld


----------



## Lon

jld, after some obvious differences on opinion between us on that other thread, I was curious to understand a bit more about where you were coming from, so decided to look at a couple of your threads for some background on you, and the title of this one really stood out for me.

At one point in time I think I started on the same path that your H seems to have had much success on, nothing brought me more satisfaction than working hard, being loyal and committed and providing security while earning the respect and admiration like you do for your H. Things really didn't click for me though, I have not often been able to overcome a lot of the adversity on the way and I found myself on completely different path in life.

I think a lot of the difference in our approaches on that other thread (which I have no need to mention right now, but to which you know what I am talking of) comes from the different places we have come to in life.

But the one thing I wanted to write on this thread after reading your initial post, is that while you say the unconditional love and unwavering devotion your H brings to the marriage is the foundation of it, I disagree - I suspect he would say that it is your love, support, admiration and equal vestment in the relationship that is the foundation for him. Truly it is the bond the two of you have formed that is the real foundation.

I just want to say that it is rare and extremely valuable, and admire and respect your viewpoint tremendously.


----------



## jld

Lon said:


> jld, after some obvious differences on opinion between us on that other thread, I was curious to understand a bit more about where you were coming from, so decided to look at a couple of your threads for some background on you, and the title of this one really stood out for me.
> 
> At one point in time I think I started on the same path that your H seems to have had much success on, nothing brought me more satisfaction than working hard, being loyal and committed and providing security while earning the respect and admiration like you do for your H. Things really didn't click for me though, I have not often been able to overcome a lot of the adversity on the way and I found myself on completely different path in life.
> 
> I think a lot of the difference in our approaches on that other thread (which I have no need to mention right now, but to which you know what I am talking of) comes from the different places we have come to in life.
> 
> But the one thing I wanted to write on this thread after reading your initial post, is that while you say the unconditional love and unwavering devotion your H brings to the marriage is the foundation of it, I disagree -* I suspect he would say that it is your love, support, admiration and equal vestment in the relationship that is the foundation for him. Truly it is the bond the two of you have formed that is the real foundation.*
> 
> I just want to say that it is rare and extremely valuable, and admire and respect your viewpoint tremendously.


(((((Lon)))))

That was so kind. Thank you so much, from my heart.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *Lon said*: But the one thing I wanted to write on this thread after reading your initial post, is that while you say the unconditional love and unwavering devotion your H brings to the marriage is the foundation of it, I disagree -* I suspect he would say that it is your love, support, admiration and equal vestment in the relationship that is the foundation for him. Truly it is the bond the two of you have formed that is the real foundation*.





jld said:


> *(((((Lon)))))
> 
> That was so kind. Thank you so much, from my heart*.


Oh I just have to jump in here too....I have felt the same ....many times over...Lon worded that very well.....honestly, I find your devotion and admiration to your Husband so unwavering...at every turn...through the toughest of times... like his traveling so very much ....you hold down the fort with those 5 kids....you stand by your man JLD...

Now with his contributing posts on how important it is to do all we can for our wives, support them...stand by them...WOW....it's just a testament to the both of you!!


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> Oh I just have to jump in here too....I have felt the same ....many times over...Lon worded that very well.....honestly, I find your devotion and admiration to your Husband so unwavering...at every turn...through the toughest of times... like his traveling so very much ....you hold down the fort with those 5 kids....you stand by your man JLD...
> 
> Now with his contributing posts on how important it is to do all we can for our wives, support them...stand by them...WOW....it's just a testament to the both of you!!



Oh, SA, can I give you a hug, too?  (((((SA)))))

My goodness, I am the lucky recipient of such kindness tonight! Thank you so much! 

I love him so much, SA. I know I haven't been a perfect wife at all. I have made so many mistakes. But he is so gracious and forgiving. And I do try to improve . . . most of the time! 

I feel lucky to know you here, SA. I know I have said it many times, but your presence here is so heart-warming. You truly make TAM a kinder, gentler place!


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## SurpriseMyself

The traditional marriage works if that is what you want. My MIL told me once that all she ever wanted was to be a wife and mother. She met those goals at age 18. She is happy. I could never do that. Decades without growth, without experiencing new things, such a narrow definition of who I am.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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