# Personality disorders and FOG



## motherofone (Jan 10, 2013)

Do people with Personality Disorders have the ability to come out of the FOG? Like BPD or NPD?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

LOL I think people like this stay in a perpetual fog. It just changes form over the years.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> LOL I think people like this stay in a perpetual fog. It just changes form over the years.


I agree that some ppl like to stay in the fog, however, I wonder how does it change form over the years?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Fog as it relates to people with personality disorders is simply abnormal thinking and beliefs. Delusion so to speak.

For example a narcissist may think he's God's gift to the world. His delusion changes forms over the years depending on his life at the time and the people that are in it. He could first think his wife worships the ground he walks on but when she leaves him that changes to it was his idea. Fog.

A BPD'er could fear abandonment and cheats. Idealizes the affair and makes her spouse the bad guy. When the affair ends the new guy is now the bad one. Fog.


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## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

"A BPD'er could fear abandonment and cheats. Idealizes the affair and makes her spouse the bad guy. When the affair ends the new guy is now the bad one. Fog."


My AxW resembles this!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

If you're in a relationship with someone in a personality disorder'd fog you must be careful. They truly to the depths of their soul believe this and are skilled at getting those closest to them to buy into it as well. Their very mental stability hinges on getting people to feed their delusion. You walk away from people like this thinking you might be as bad as they think you are.


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## motherofone (Jan 10, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> If you're in a relationship with someone in a personality disorder'd fog you must be careful. They truly to the depths of their soul believe this and are skilled at getting those closest to them to buy into it as well. Their very mental stability hinges on getting people to feed their delusion. You walk away from people like this thinking you might be as bad as they think you are.


Well aware of the depths, unfortunately, that they are willing to take things. Despite all that I find myself unable to be angry with someone who clearly is not well. IC has been a major help in self discovery. I am lucky that I will walk away a person and not a shell of a person. (Even though there will be more work to do.)


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> If you're in a relationship with someone in a personality disorder'd fog you must be careful. They truly to the depths of their soul believe this and are skilled at getting those closest to them to buy into it as well. Their very mental stability hinges on getting people to feed their delusion. You walk away from people like this thinking you might be as bad as they think you are.


I'm not sure what being in a FOG means really, but if I give you an example could you help me? 

I just recently got out of a relationship with a guy who I believed to be NPD, or at least had really strong straits of that. Anyway, he lacked empathy big time. He honestly had trouble putting himself in other peoples shoes. He clearly had no understanding of how someone else's feelings were. 

When I would tell him how when he did certain things, how it would make me feel, he would actually say things like, "I doubt you feel the way you say!" :scratchhead: Are you kidding? He truly felt I didn't feel the way I told him I felt? Is it possible he was having a hard time coping or believing that he was part of the reason I felt the way I did? At times I feel his lack of empathy has done some sort of mental/emotional damage to me, even if its just a bit. 

I never really saw where he seemed to put himself on a pedestool and made out like his issues were bigger than mine, hell he didn't even think he had any issues, and even if he did, he didn't care to do much about them, and he sure thought my feelings were for sh*t. 

So when you say FOG do you mean they are blind? They do not see how they have hurt others? Can these kinds of people change? 

To the OP, I hope I'm not taking away from your thread, just trying to understand.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> Is it possible he was having a hard time coping or believing that he was part of the reason I felt the way I did?


Narcissist's cannot fathom that anyone would think differently than they do hence why he argued with you about it. They live in their own world and you're just passing through. 

Unless you serve some purpose aka to feed their ego or help them portray the picture of the perfect couple/family they will cast you aside.



> So when you say FOG do you mean they are blind? They do not see how they have hurt others? Can these kinds of people change?


I mean they are delusional. You could look at them the wrong way and they will accuse you of say cheating on them. Their wiring is just all wrong. No they cannot see how their actions hurt others. 

Can a narcissist change? In my experience and research? No.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Thanks Mavash. I remember when he told me that I didn't really feel the way I said I did, I got upset. I was upset because I felt I wasn't being heard, and he said, "look at you, your anxiety is up, if you really felt the way you said, you wouldn't be that upset."  A few days later I dumped him. But yet he couldn't understand why!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

motherofone said:


> Do people with Personality Disorders have the ability to come out of the FOG? Like BPD or NPD?


I wish.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

On average, over time, either with therapy or a lack of enablers in their life, they do tend to come out of the fog. By this, I mean that BPD symptoms tend to decrease with age. Admittedly, this may be biased by the suicide rate. NPD is not so clear. For BPD, results with DBT aren't bad.

My wife is now significantly less foggy than she was a few years back. So, nothing's impossible.

That said, it takes upwards of 3 years - because any sort of true personal change takes years. So, waiting around for people isn't a good idea. And, well, it is hard to stay without making them worse.

Many older BPDs end up as hermits. The world is probably, overall, better off that way.

--Argyle


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

argyle said:


> That said, it takes upwards of 3 years - because any sort of true personal change takes years. So, waiting around for people isn't a good idea. And, well, it is hard to stay without making them worse.
> 
> Many older BPDs end up as hermits. The world is probably, overall, better off that way.
> 
> --Argyle


I'm BPD and it took 4 years of IC.

Agree with your whole post.

My dad is a narcissist. In the end nobody would talk to him so yes he was a hermit. There are lots of hermits in my dysfunctional family. LOL


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

My WH is exhibiting signs of having a personality disorder, attachment disorder, he has ADD, on meds for depression, no empathy, no remorse, emotionally detached, poor judgements, behavioral problems, flirting, cheating, lying AND I AM EXHAUSTED.

I am in therapy twice a week. Married 30years. Separated. Scared of him because he hurts me, tells me I am fat and he lies.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

argyle said:


> On average, over time, either with therapy or a lack of enablers in their life, they do tend to come out of the fog. By this, I mean that BPD symptoms tend to decrease with age. Admittedly, this may be biased by the suicide rate. NPD is not so clear. For BPD, results with DBT aren't bad.
> 
> My wife is now significantly less foggy than she was a few years back. So, nothing's impossible.
> 
> ...


As you probably already know, my stbxw just keeps getting worse every passing year. The "episodes" are more intense, and are increasing in frequency. I just hit #3 tonight starting last Saturday. Ugh. On a good note, my books arrive tomorrow. Let the change begin


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

I am suspecting that my stbx has BPD (someone sent me info on here a few months ago)

But I'm wondering- we went to counselling... would a counselor see this? (not a psychiatrist)
Or do people tend to hide this from counselors? I ended up going alone once and told the counselor a few things and he seemed stunned.
(my STBX was having sessions alone and I guess this stuff never came up?)

After leaving- does anyone still feel like this person is controlling you??


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> But I'm wondering- we went to counselling... would a counselor see this? (not a psychiatrist)


Mine did.



> Or do people tend to hide this from counselors? I ended up going alone once and told the counselor a few things and he seemed stunned.


My husband was there and he threw me under the bus. LOL Once the counselor made me see the problems I had (took a few months) I was then willing to bring it up on my own.



> After leaving- does anyone still feel like this person is controlling you??


People like this will attempt to control any and all things/people that they can. It comforts them in some sick and twisted way.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

My wife definitely had a lot invested in seeing her behavior as normal. So, nothing would have come up with her therapist if I hadn't thrown her under the bus by being very frank to the MC we were visiting and arranging for an information-sharing agreement.

Her arrest also helped. It communicated that certain behavior really wasn't normal in the US in a clear fashion.

--Argyle


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

None of my ex's therapists have picked up on his PD traits. After he gave me the ILYBINILWY speech, I started IC. Through my therapy, and describing what life with him had been like, my IC told me that his behavior didn't match up with his disgnoses of OCD and depression; that they much more closely resembled a personality disorder. After researching more on PDs, life with him made a lot more sense! From what I've read and talked about with my IC, it's not at all unusual for someone with a PD to go without being diagnosed by a therapist. They can usually go the length of an appointment without showing the kind of things they show a spouse or family member. They will often seek therapy for comorbid problems like depression, and focus on that in appointments. And treatment for that is not often very successful, as the therapist is not aware of everything going on with the client (like their PD traits ).

And yes, if you must continue contact with your ex due to kids, etc., be prepared for continued control-seeking. I was hoping it would subside, but unfortunately it hasn't. And now his PA-turned-fiancee supports him in his treatment of me (I suspect she has her own issues, having known her before our split). I had hoped that once he could turn his focus on to her and their 'love,' he'd go a little easier on me. But I'm still split just as black as always.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Yes, they can...but the person with the PD has to really want to make that change. I have BPD, and therapy and DBT have helped me a lot.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

argyle said:


> Many older BPDs end up as hermits. _The world is probably, overall, better off that way._


That is not true, and it's a bit sad to hear you say that since you've said before that your wife has BPD. BPDers can be wonderful people, especially after getting the right kind of treatment.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...I love my wife. And she has improved a lot in therapy. To the point where I think our marriage is survivable and possibly even a net positive for us both, going forwards.

...but...she's not the only BPD I've met. I hope to not hurt your feelings. Many decent people have significant BPD traits and try to mend their behavior. Many others have not had the ability to make that choice. I don't blame them, but they are hard to live with.

...those others have been pretty destructive to their children and spouses. I'm really, really underexaggerating. The truth is that, as far as I can tell, most negative BPD stereotypes are, on average, justified. In those cases, I do not believe they were at all close to fit parents.

...even with my wife, prior to treatment, I'd assess her as actively toxic and occasionally physically dangerous. It is fortunate that I'm fast enough to dodge knives, strong enough to ignore most blows, ?sane? enough to survive thousands of hours of emotional abuse, and hardworking enough to maintain our family's finances and household even with active resistance from her.

...assuming my wife continues getting better and our marriage continues improving...even then, from a rational standpoint, there were easier paths to life than marrying a BPD.

--Argyle


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> Yes, they can...but the person with the PD has to really want to make that change. I have BPD, and therapy and DBT have helped me a lot.



Oh, I didn't mean to say that they couldn't be helped - I know that DBT can work really well. I was just saying that in the course of a 50-minute visit that focuses on someone's depression, it's unlikely that the therapist will just pick up on someone's PD. And, incidentally DBT can be very helpful for a lot of things. My IC selected several of her clients (myself included) to do DBT group therapy for about a year. None of us had a PD, but it was very helpful in learning new coping skills for a lot of dysfunctional behaviors.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

bunny23 said:


> I am suspecting that my stbx has BPD (someone sent me info on here a few months ago)
> 
> But I'm wondering- we went to counselling... would a counselor see this? (not a psychiatrist)
> Or do people tend to hide this from counselors? I ended up going alone once and told the counselor a few things and he seemed stunned.
> (my STBX was having sessions alone and I guess this stuff never came up?)


A counselor might not see it. BPDers don't necessarily hide their behaviors from therapists or even the rest of the world on a conscious level. It's just that they more tend to come out with their loved ones. Naturally if they're high-functioning, they're going to be presenting a facade of normalcy to the rest of the world (automatic defense mechanism). Which becomes impossible with those close to the person with BPD, because aspects of that closeness are triggering/threatening, and the BPD person cares about those close to him/her, making it very hard not to react. So you're going to see things from him that most other people never will because you're closest of all. 

I was in therapy for a while as a teenager and was diagnosed with depression, but not BPD. That wasn't caught until I was well into adulthood. If your BPD person never talks about the behaviors or situations that would indicate BPD, and doesn't act out in the therapist's office, the therapist will never know. Not to mention, if they're not trained and qualified to deal with BPD, they might miss those signs anyway.

I never actively tried to hide from therapists, but I couldn't relax or open up. I just kept smiling and following the protective pattern. It wasn't until later that I was able to let something real through. My therapist says that BPDers are usually pretty honest in therapy, even though I've seen people on here say that they're not. But if they're like me, it's just hard to break through all those safety mechanisms and defenses and show the truth to a stranger, which we know is bad and unacceptable. It's really hard to face yourself when you can't separate bad behavior from BEING bad. We've learned to do our best not to show it, not to show ourselves. Depending on the severity, and whether or not the BPDer is high or low-functioning, the degree of exposure can vary greatly.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

angelpixie said:


> Oh, I didn't mean to say that they couldn't be helped - I know that DBT can work really well. I was just saying that in the course of a 50-minute visit that focuses on someone's depression, it's unlikely that the therapist will just pick up on someone's PD. And, incidentally DBT can be very helpful for a lot of things. My IC selected several of her clients (myself included) to do DBT group therapy for about a year. None of us had a PD, but it was very helpful in learning new coping skills for a lot of dysfunctional behaviors.


Oh, I didn't mean to make you think I was saying that to you - I agree with you! I think PDs are often missed because the therapy is not focusing on aspects that would indicate that the person in question has a PD. I know DBT helps for a lot of things, people with bipolar and even people without PDs. Everyone has some array of problems to deal with.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

argyle said:


> ...I love my wife. And she has improved a lot in therapy. To the point where I think our marriage is survivable and possibly even a net positive for us both, going forwards.
> 
> ...but...she's not the only BPD I've met. I hope to not hurt your feelings. Many decent people have significant BPD traits and try to mend their behavior. Many others have not had the ability to make that choice. I don't blame them, but they are hard to live with.
> 
> ...


I appreciate that you don't want to hurt my feelings. 

I'm glad that you say that you love her. I know that there are BPDers who act out so severely that it's not possible or even reasonable to work with them until they've had a lot of treatment (if they can make it through that), but stereotypes are rarely the whole or accurate truth about anything. Yes there are BPDers who fit the negative stereotypes perfectly, but there are also those who don't. (I've met both as well, and I happen not to fit the really negative stereotypes.) That doesn't excuse the damage that they do or excuse them from their obligation to get treatment, but I don't think they should be judged worthless and needing to be permanently removed from society, either.

But you married an individual, not a disorder. BPD is not all that comprises your wife, and that is why you stay, I imagine. 

I guess I'm just being sensitive. Sorry about that. Sometimes the prevailing attitude people seem to have about BPDers saddens me, even though I can understand it in the cases where people are dealing with someone with severe BPD.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm BPD and a hermit. 

The paradox is I'm married with 3 kids.

I've had enough therapy to function well in society I just don't like it.

I'm quite content to stay at home.

I socialize for my families sake not mine.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

What's the difference between low functioning and high functioning 
BPD?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

CallaLily said:


> What's the difference between low functioning and high functioning
> BPD?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm high functioning which means I went to college, had a successful career, can support myself, had a few friends, where I failed was in close personal relationships.

I have no idea what low functioning BPD looks like.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Basically high-functioning BPDers are more able to keep things together to some degree in the outside world - have a job, go to college (as Mavash mentioned), and act like everything is ok, at least to people outside the intimate circle.

Low-functioning BPDers struggle a lot more with this and are usually the ones people are more familiar with, the ones being baker-acted or ending up in the hospital a lot.

This from a website:

_Low Functioning Borderline - The “Low Functioning” borderline is what most people think of when they are first introduced to the condition. Low functioning BPDs are a living train wreck. They have intense difficulties taking care of their basic needs, are constantly experiencing mood swings. They also have an extremely hard time managing any sort of relationship with another human being. Low Functioning BPDs are often hospitalized more than other BPD types, for the very reason that they can’t live productively without constant coaching and supervision. These patients are challenging for all but the most experienced psychiatrists. Unless otherwise treated, low functioning borderlines lead self destructive lives and attempt to manipulate those around them with desperate acts, including self harm (cutting, etc.).

High Functioning Borderline - The High Functioning Borderline Personality shares many core aspects of the low functioning borderline personality, except for the fact that they can manage their lives, appear to be productive, and generally keep their relationships civil (even diplomatic in nature). High Functioning borderlines can appear to be normal, driven people one moment; then moody, inconsolable, and manipulative the next. Somehow, there is a mechanism within the minds of High Functioning Borderlines that allows them to lead somewhat “competent” lives, despite the fact that they are in a constant battle with BPD. High functioning BPDs are no better than low functioning: it’s basically the same face wearing a different mask._

On The Borderline - 5 Types of Borderline Personality Disorder Manifestations


Now, the manipulation they speak of is usually not deliberate. It's instinctive in the attempt to survive and get needs met. Also, there's typically an overlap of low and high-functioning, like a BPDer will usually be more one or the other, but sometimes cross over. Put a high-functioning BPDer under enough pressure and they'll start to present as low-functioning (self-harm, outbursts of extreme behavior, etc).


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## motherofone (Jan 10, 2013)

Low functioning BPD- has many acquaintances but few friends, can hardly hold down a job, etc.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Thanks for clearing the differences up between the two! So can people be high and low functioning
with other mental illnesses too, such as NPD etc? Or is high and low functioning for like BPD only?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

From what I understand, there are certain traits that are clustered together and labeled as a personality disorder, based on how strong they are, and on the level of negative impact on the person's life and/or relationships. We all have these traits, but like many other things, they're on a spectrum. Some people would have very strong traits that would definitely have a negative impact on people around them, but they might not meet the clinical threshold for a diagnosis.

In that case, they might be considered 'high-functioning' or not even officially having a PD from a diagnostic standpoint, but might still be very difficult to live or work with.

ETA: From my ex's viewpoint, he sees the latter as just an 'as$hole.' I guess it takes one to know one.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

CallaLily said:


> Thanks for clearing the differences up between the two! So can people be high and low functioning
> with other mental illnesses too, such as NPD etc? Or is high and low functioning for like BPD only?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I think other disorders tend to fall on a spectrum, too, so I'd say yes, you could have an NPDer or someone with some other disorder be more high or low-functioning. I've actually run into several people with NPD, or at least with very strong NPD traits, and some of them were far less functional than others. I've had limited interactions with people with other disorders, but it seems to be pretty much the same deal.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I didn't start researching about PDs until I moved away from my ex. I didn't tell him anything about suspecting he had/has a PD, but at one point in a discussion, when we were still discussing our relationship, he angrily blurted out 'And I'm not a narcissist.' As I said, I never told him. I suspect he was snooping around in my place when he'd come to pick up our son, and saw some of the books I was reading, even though I purposely kept them out of his obvious view. Otherwise, there would have been no reason to say that. He viewed such things as 'less sympathetic' than something like depression or OCD. Those other things -- he's the one that said that people that acted like that were as$holes. So, of course, he wouldn't see himself as having a PD. That, to him, was more like a character flaw. Also, he always looked to meds for a cure, even with his depression and OCD. He'd blown through several therapists, frustrating more than a couple by not doing any of the reading, workbooks, exercises, etc. that they wanted him to try along with his meds. He's a very smart man, and knows that PDs are not treated with meds. 

In other words, he wanted a diagnoses that fit what he wanted to say about himself and what he was comfortable doing for treatment. A PD didn't match either of those things. Until he changes how he sees himself and his life, and changes what he's willing to do to make his life better, he will not change. 

What upsets me the most is that I'm forced to let my son live with him and his gf half the time. I lived full-time with an undiagnosed mentally ill mother who had her own very strong BPD traits. And it f'd me up big time. Working on myself to become DS' stable parent is the biggest motivation I have.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

It would have been harder to deal with his PD than to find all those other issues to focus on. My therapist has said that the people who are least likely to go for help are narcissists, but she also said that if they DID get into therapy with the will to change, they could do so. But it's really tough to make a break-through with them or for them admit that anything might be wrong with them. 

(My partner's mother gave her the book Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder a few months ago when we were still separated but working on things - and I was like, "Really? That is so unnecessary." Her mother has never liked me for multiple reasons, but once GF told her I had BPD, she stepped up her efforts to drive a wedge between us. Ironically, multiple therapists have told us that her mother is probably a narcissist, or at the very least has strong narcissistic traits. But that's something else GF and I have in common in our backgrounds.)

I can see why that would be upsetting. Children being raised by someone with an untreated PD are extremely at risk. At least it's not full-time.  He has you and the safe environment you provide for him, so hopefully that will work to balance or counteract any toxicity from his father.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

High Functioning reminds me of a woman I dated years ago and was planning on marrying, glad I dodged that bullet. I always knew something was wrong but never could put my finger on it. She held down a job, had hobbies, etc. The thing that bothered me more than anything was her ability to fool people. In front of friends, co workers and her family and my family, she could put on a show! 

They had no clue how she really was behind closed doors. I remember mentioning something to her family once (after all i was going to marry her) I mentioned to them about how she was with me, and was asking them if they ever saw any signs of certain behaviors! That was a big mistake. They looked at me like I was crazy, and claimed their daughter would never have acted and did the things I told them, and that I was the crazy one and must have dreamed it all up. :scratchhead: I knew then either her family was a bit off too, or she had them fooled her whole life! 

She seemed to rage more inward though. I never saw where she tried to harm herself, or would rage in anger outwardly towards me really, It was more along the lines of passive/aggression. She seemed to have a love/hate relationship with me, and really lacked empathy. I truly believe she did not care how I felt, and when I would tell her, she actually would tell me, she doubted I felt that way! OUCH that really burnt! 

I'm glad I broke things off with her. Of course I had to get the whole I love you don't leave me speech and how she would change etc. BUT I knew I didn't want to spend the rest of my life like that. I never knew if she had a diagnoses, I just always knew something was off. I had read and heard a lot about BPD and NPD and knew people that had both. Thats kinds what she reminded me of. I'm just glad that part of my life is over. This has been a good and educating thread! :smthumbup:


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

If her family didn't see it, maybe it was because they were on the outside. It sounds like ending the relationship was best for both of you. Making it work with a partner who has a PD is not for everyone - the PD certainly complicates things.


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## motherofone (Jan 10, 2013)

I think families buy in to the dysfunction. Unless you are ready to face yourself and your role you may never see the PD or the person that they really are. It boggles my mind but I see individual roles more clearly now.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

DSM V is probably closer to reality. A personality disorder can be rated according to the severity of a number of dysfunctional traits. Diagnosis ideally indicates that a person has enough dysfunctional traits at high severity so as to be essentially nonfunctional in society.

High-functioning versus low-functioning BPD has, AFAIK, always been a deceptive label - and mostly refers to the direction of harm. So, a BPD who primarily harms themself (suicide, cutting,...) would be low-functioning. A BPD who primarily harms other people would be high-functioning (physical and emotional abuse). 

It doesn't necessarily speak to severity at all.

The problem with using labels like BPD is that dysfunctional traits don't cluster as closely as you'd like for a diagnostic category. Eg, if my very faulty memory holds, about a quarter of BPDs also qualify for an NPD diagnosis. Now, this sounds kind of acceptable, unless you consider that low-functioning BPD probably won't have co-morbid NPD - and then you're looking at really high comorbidity in high-functioning BPD.*

High-functioning BPDs, rather like NPDs, usually mask insane behavior from everyone except their SOs.

Low-functioning BPDs are typically treated more successfully than high-functioning BPDs - as hurting yourself, hurts. Hurting other people can just be fun.

@soul My wife is, within her limitations, one of the best, most honest, and bravest people I know. She is also pretty persistent at trying things that she is very bad at. I honor that. That said, there are personality-disordered people who, assuming they don't miraculously recover, would benefit society by withdrawing from it, voluntarily or otherwise.**

--Argyle
*And really, the mixture of NPD/BPD is hard to live with. Imagine someone who can't be stable, who is in intense emotional pain, desperately insecure, and who does not empathize with other people's pain. Nothing like going to marriage counseling and listening to your wife explain that she feels perfectly justified in torturing someone who has hurt her feelings or failed to cater to her self-image.
**My most positive interaction with one such woman was her failure to show up at her daughter's wedding - which thereby avoided both the racial epithets hurled at the groom, the demands for repayment of her children's tuition, and the obscenities hurled at her husband. Her husband is a good man, and I hope he will someday be free of that creature.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Heck, some families actively promote the dysfunction.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

soulpotato said:


> Heck, some families actively promote the dysfunction.


I have to wonder if that's like a guilt thing? Maybe some of these families feel they are to blame some
for their role in how certain people have turned out? Guilt doesn't always make people want to try and make
things better either, sometimes the opposite. Or maybe they are in denial of their role in anything?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

argyle said:


> DSM V is probably closer to reality. A personality disorder can be rated according to the severity of a number of dysfunctional traits. Diagnosis ideally indicates that a person has enough dysfunctional traits at high severity so as to be essentially nonfunctional in society.
> 
> High-functioning versus low-functioning BPD has, AFAIK, always been a deceptive label - and mostly refers to the direction of harm. So, a BPD who primarily harms themself (suicide, cutting,...) would be low-functioning. A BPD who primarily harms other people would be high-functioning (physical and emotional abuse).


That's where it gets fuzzy. Even though I've been diagnosed with BPD (and previously with depression as well), I still function very well in society. That said, I do occasionally end up displaying low-functioning behavior, like cutting and going into completely overload/breakdown territory, but that's pretty rare. I can take a decent amount of pressure before I start showing badly, and even then, I'm very against harming other people. (You would never see me calling the police on someone just to hurt them, throwing someone's clothes out, destroying their belongings, deliberately harming someone I care about, etc.) I've known at least one one other HF BPDer who behaved similarly. Both of us HF, but both being more focused on hurting ourselves *in some way* rather than hurting others - though others do end up getting hurt by the fallout. I don't think high-functioning/low-functioning just comes down to direction of harm, and there's definitely crossover.



argyle said:


> The problem with using labels like BPD is that dysfunctional traits don't cluster as closely as you'd like for a diagnostic category. Eg, if my very faulty memory holds, about a quarter of BPDs also qualify for an NPD diagnosis. Now, this sounds kind of acceptable, unless you consider that low-functioning BPD probably won't have co-morbid NPD - and then you're looking at really high comorbidity in high-functioning BPD.*
> 
> High-functioning BPDs, rather like NPDs, usually mask insane behavior from everyone except their SOs.


I wonder if having some co-morbid NPD traits assists with functioning in society (not close relationships, obviously) and aids a high-functioning BPDer in appearing okay to the world at large? Because NPDers seem to be better at keeping up appearances (at least superficially) on the whole.



argyle said:


> Low-functioning BPDs are typically treated more successfully than high-functioning BPDs - as hurting yourself, hurts. Hurting other people can just be fun.


Right, because they're a lot more obvious, and high-functioning BPDers can convince themselves (and to some degree, more distant others) that they're fine and don't need any help. I don't think it's usually about hurting other people for fun. And high-functioning BPDers definitely harm themselves as well, but maybe not as often via cutting, etc.



argyle said:


> @soul My wife is, within her limitations, one of the best, most honest, and bravest people I know. She is also pretty persistent at trying things that she is very bad at. I honor that. That said, there are personality-disordered people who, assuming they don't miraculously recover, would benefit society by withdrawing from it, voluntarily or otherwise.**


I'm glad that you can acknowledge her positive traits, too. It's true that there are people who are so disordered and so beyond help that they're a real danger to society and other people, but they're the minority. 



argyle said:


> *And really, the mixture of NPD/BPD is hard to live with. Imagine someone who can't be stable, who is in intense emotional pain, desperately insecure, and who does not empathize with other people's pain. Nothing like going to marriage counseling and listening to your wife explain that she feels perfectly justified in torturing someone who has hurt her feelings or failed to cater to her self-image.


 The BPD/NPD mix wouldn't necessarily include all the traits of NPD, nor would they always manifest in the same way. Someone could have NPD traits to some degree yet still have working empathy and be a caring person. I don't know how uncommon that combo is, but I know it's possible.

I don't have to imagine how hard it is to live with an NPDer (non-mixed). I once dated someone with NPD who seemed to totally lack empathy and was as you described above. It was like being put through a meat-grinder.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Jamison said:


> I have to wonder if that's like a guilt thing? Maybe some of these families feel they are to blame some
> for their role in how certain people have turned out? Guilt doesn't always make people want to try and make
> things better either, sometimes the opposite. Or maybe they are in denial of their role in anything?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think more often than not the families are in denial that they played a role in anything.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

My parents saw it in me. Told me to my face that my husband was too nice for me. Said they gave our marriage 4 years tops because I was difficult.

Had he asked about me I they'd lie. Lying because they didn't dare air dirty laundry to outsiders.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

That's terrible, Mavash.  Well, your parents helped to create it. As we well know, one of the two things necessary for BPD is an invalidating environment, which often includes some form of abuse.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> That's terrible, Mavash.  Well, your parents helped to create it. As we well know, one of the two things necessary for BPD is an invalidating environment, which often includes some form of abuse.


Oh I'm great! I haven't spoken to them in 14 years and have forgiven them. They were abused themselves. They did the best they could. They did try they were just ill equipped to be parents.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Sounds like my parents.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Good for you Mavash! Sometimes I wish my husband wouldn't talk to his family, but for some reason
they are the best thing in the world to him! While the one who loved him and stuck by all the crap got
treated awful,(me) but the ones who helped created who he is gets praise! You know I can see maybe 
one or two ppl in a family having some issues, but his whole family is dysfunctional! His mother, father both
his sisters and himself! And not one of them has gotten help or wants help. They all self medicate in some way, and
never take blame for anything, it's always someone else's fault! To me you would think the people who harmed him (family)
you would think he would be ugly acting with them, not at someone who cares for him. Misguided anger maybe,I dunno!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

@soul Dunno. From the definitions I read, a BPDer who functioned in society but harmed inwards would qualify as mildly BPD, but low-functioning. But, some people use low-functioning to mean 'really severe' and high functioning to mean 'neurotic'. Dunno.

Pretty sure that NPD is a great defense mechanism to deal with pain.

Dunno. Maybe I've been hanging out with the wrong crowd, but about half of the ones I've met...do not benefit society by remaining in it.

I think most people don't start off hurting other people for fun. But, at some point, the adrenaline rush and feeling of control can be pretty addictive. OTOH, it seems harder to get addicted to healing bruises.

BPD seems to be both temperment-based (my wife always had emotion-control issues) and upbringing based (her parents beat her). Other children, like her brothers, didn't end up anywhere close to as mentally ill.

--Argyle


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

argyle said:


> @soul Dunno. From the definitions I read, a BPDer who functioned in society but harmed inwards would qualify as mildly BPD, but low-functioning. But, some people use low-functioning to mean 'really severe' and high functioning to mean 'neurotic'. Dunno.


I haven't gone around comparing the definition sets, but that was just the impression I got from what I've read (of what high vs low-functioning was), what I found when I searched for it to post here, and what my therapist has said. It can get a bit complicated, I suppose. And someone can be high-functioning but still have more than mild BPD. 

(Another version of the definition: A High-Functioning Personality-Disordered Individual is one who is able to conceal their dysfunctional behavior in certain public settings and maintain a positive public or professional profile while exposing their negative traits to family members behind closed doors. A Low-Functioning Personality-Disordered Individual is one who is unable to conceal their dysfunctional behavior from public view or maintain a positive public or professional profile. Out of the FOG - Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD))



argyle said:


> Pretty sure that NPD is a great defense mechanism to deal with pain.


I'm sure it is, too.



argyle said:


> Dunno. Maybe I've been hanging out with the wrong crowd, but about half of the ones I've met...do not benefit society by remaining in it.


I'm sorry to hear that. How did you meet so many?



argyle said:


> I think most people don't start off hurting other people for fun. But, at some point, the adrenaline rush and feeling of control can be pretty addictive. OTOH, it seems harder to get addicted to healing bruises.


I can see control being addictive, and controlling pain being addictive. I don't know, I think a lot of BPDers are most definitely addicted to self-harm because it makes them feel better, and it's a form of self-regulation. Sometimes nothing else will bring them back. 



argyle said:


> BPD seems to be both temperment-based (my wife always had emotion-control issues) and upbringing based (her parents beat her). Other children, like her brothers, didn't end up anywhere close to as mentally ill.


Yes, certainly. There are basically two components required for BPD to develop. A highly sensitive/emotionally reactive temperament, and an invalidating environment. Less sensitive children raised in the environment can come out of it less damaged (or even fairly okay), but the sensitive child will develop BPD. There doesn't always have to be abuse - sometimes it's that the parents are ill-equipped to meet the greater needs of the sensitive child. But very often, there is some kind of abuse, and there's your perfect recipe for BPD. Interestingly enough, sensitive/vulnerable children brought up in a validating environment will _not_ develop BPD. They're protected from it.


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## kezins (Aug 25, 2013)

motherofone said:


> Do people with Personality Disorders have the ability to come out of the FOG? Like BPD or NPD?


It's very possible to come out f the fog with these disorders and disorders even more serious. With a lot, there's no such thing as 100% recovery, but if the person wants to get better, they can.


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## kezins (Aug 25, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> That's terrible, Mavash.  Well, your parents helped to create it. As we well know, one of the two things necessary for BPD is an invalidating environment, which often includes some form of abuse.


BPD is by far a genetic disorder. No one has ever proved that environment can cause it, but they have proven genetic links. People from optimal backgrounds and environments get the condition too.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

@soul Married my wife. Met her friends. Met their mothers. And...gaak. It is really hard to convey the level of hatefulness some of those women exhibit. If you think of level 0 as a normal, sane, nice person. And level 3 as a bit of a jerk. And level 9 as someone who destresses by beating people with a bat. They're around level 12. Glah. After a friendly, candid conversation with one of them, I wanted to wash my brain with bleach. She's apparently much, much worse to family. But, fortunately, now basically a hermit, as no one in her family talks to her anymore. Same with the other one too. Her children literally moved across the country when she moved nearby.

@Kevin
Dunno. There's at least some evidence of a linkage between abuse and BPD. Of course, it is tricky - as parental genetics tend to change upbringing and an awfully large number of studies are BS. There does seem to be a strong genetic component.

http://journals.psychiatryonline.org/data/Journals/AJP/3679/1101.pdf

--Argyle


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

kezins said:


> BPD is by far a genetic disorder. No one has ever proved that environment can cause it, but they have proven genetic links. People from optimal backgrounds and environments get the condition too.


Yes, there is a biological component to it, but that doesn't do it alone. It takes an invalidating environment (maybe not always outright abuse). Multiple therapists have discussed this and confirmed...as well as lots of online and printed sources. Just saying.

Now bipolar, on the other hand...pretty sure that's primarily genetic/chemical, but I haven't looked into that as much.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Providing a validating environment to a BPD or closet BPD is just as catastrophic as providing an invalidating environment. 

At some point the reality fairy comes calling and odds are, invalidating is closer to reality than validating...


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Dunno. I'd say that providing a normal, but unusually validating and stable environment is close to optimal. Kind of in the middle on this one. I guess that consistent invalidation can lead to stability, in that in recreates the BPD's childhood.

...if a BPD is expressing emotion, admitting that the emotion exists usually is positive. Being as sympathetic as possible is also good. Over time, this might help a bit with normal emotional expression.

...if the BPD is being abusive or completely delusional, doing something invalidating seems to work better. There's a range of possible actions...from walking out, to telling the truth in a calm and reasonably loving fashion, to screaming back at them. The key part being that they shouldn't enjoy the experience. Of those choices, my wife disliked the truth the most. So, I gave it to her.

...which is a reasonable approximation of how normal people respond to typical BPD behaviors. There is some pruning though...as a lot of expressions of emotion would result in:
'Get your head examined.' and a lot of abuse tends to result in 'Get out of my life'. Those reactions aren't necessarily helpful though...

There are people who see validation as the answer to everything. My take on it is that they're seeking to control their partner's rages by making them feel better. It mostly doesn't work.

--Argyle


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's basically damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Validation of acceptable behavior is good, but if a high function BPD has some straw to grasp on that their behavior is good this opens up lots of cans of worms. 

It is hard to validate normal behavior when all you have is "not bad" and "bad" and rarely "good". It's like handing out A's for C work.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I've got a 13 year old son who unfortunately is a lot like me.

I provide him the validation he needs, have him in counseling, am empathetic but I don't put up with his crap either. The world does not will not ever cater to him and the sooner he learns this lesson the better.

It's painful to sit back and watch him suffer the consequences of his own behavior at times but I know it needs to be done.

He'll always have to self regulate this which saddens me. All I can do is give him the skills to the best of my ability and let the rest go.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Dunno. I think there's a problem with using short-term BPD behaviors as a gauge. In the short-term, it is nearly guaranteed that nothing involving staying will involve stability or sanity on the part of your partner. There is, pretty much literally, no way to win. At the very least, periodic destressing through emotional explosions means that - no matter how perfect you are - they'll find an excuse.

OTOH, if you behave in a 'normal, yet stable and validating way' over long periods, it is reasonable to expect changes in average behavior. I have found this to be the case. I would tend to define validation as acknowledging emotions and acknowledging any common referents of normalcy in expressed emotions. OTOH, BS rationalizations are better handled by either exploring the underlying emotions (my wife won't do this) or by simply explaining that they are, in fact, BS rationalizations and then dealing with the resulting rage.

--Argyle


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If your second paragraph is any indication, it seems that Dr. Mrs. BPD is even more off the deep end than I thought because I am unable to identify any slivers of normal behavior apart from basic stuff. Even things like table manners or dress are a major challenge.

Everything gets blown up to epic proportions and it is very hard to think of her doing something normal when she's, for example, more distressed about losing a tree in our house than she was when her own mother passed away. 

It's like getting a zero on the SAT. Unless you know what the right answers are and intentionally don't select them, random answers will be correct some of the time. The only time we agree on anything is if she goes on an on about her work (where if it was not for me playing career coach for the last dozen years she would be unemployed, doctorate or not).

The only time we agree on anything is when I frame a question in such a way as to preclude any other responses other than the desired one... You can't validate stuff like that.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...y'know, most of our discussions were along the lines of...
(1) Please explain how you are forcing me to behave in an autistic fashion.
(2) Please explain how everyone in our town is plotting against me.
(3) Please explain how...GRAHH...I HATE YOU!!!!!

...maybe...I could agree that she was feeling bad...and that, given that people were looking at her funny, that was reasonable. But the rest was pure BS. (...or...welll...the door is that way.)

...the lack of proportionality though...that's extremely typical of my wife. I'm leaning towards autism for that part. She tends to get stuck on tiny problems and melt down. If anything, the complexity of big problems seems to help a bit - since she has to consider them from more than one angle.

...for my wife...the whole table manners (let's start with sitting at a table or using dishes, instead of eating directly from the couch...) and dress (no holes, inside in, not inside out, change them occasionally, don't show your underwear, just give up on makeup, bathe, wear fewer hats, and brush your hair) thing just seem to be straight-up autism. 

...so was, strangely...
'I'm so sorry, I never would have realized that hitting you with a bat hurt your feelings.'
'Why is my best friend mad? Okay, I've actively avoided her voice, email, and texts for 4 months...what is your point?'
'Maybe I shouldn't have lectured the terminally ill on preventative medicine?'

Once we established that she was actually different than most people - exposing her to similar people to establish a baseline helped. (Although, some of the people in the autism meetup kept on giving her empathy advice...) Shortly after finding her people, she became really open to the notion that some of her behavior was really weird. And it became easier to sort into:
crazy (wife->therapy), autism (self-help books and my help), and cultural (we just gotta adapt, me more than her).

crazy: 'What a wonderful day. I must kill you NOW!!!!!'
autism: 'I'm dressed worse than the clown.' 'Dear, please change your clothes before going outside.'
cultural: '#$%, master your woman. If I'm disobedient, grab me by the throat, force me to the ground, and take me. If I resist, make me submit. Just don't break any bones.' 'Darling, no, sorry, just not gonna happen.' 'Um. Yell a bit?' 'Ok.'

--Argyle


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> Providing a validating environment to a BPD or closet BPD is just as catastrophic as providing an invalidating environment.
> 
> At some point the reality fairy comes calling and odds are, invalidating is closer to reality than validating...


You're only supposed to validate the valid. But that doesn't mean you should actively invalidate what strikes you as not being valid, either. And validation isn't saying you necessarily agree with something:

_Validation is a way of acknowledging some small piece of what the person says as understandable, sensible, “valid.” An important piece of validation that people miss is that we don’t validate the invalid. For example, if your loved one is 5’7,” weighs 80 pounds and says “I’m fat,” you wouldn’t validate that by saying, “Yes, you are fat.” That would be validating the invalid.

You can validate some part of what she is saying by saying “I know you feel fat (or bloated, or full)”, whatever is appropriate to the context of what she is saying. Try to find some small kernel of validity. Remember that tone and manner can be invalidating when words are validating. “I know you FEEL fat” can be invalidating because it communicates that the feeling is wrong.

How to Help a Loved One with Borderline Personality Disorder, Part 2 | Psych Central
_

Something else useful on validation:

http://www.borderlinepersonalitydis...s/2011/10/ValidationandBPDNEApresentation.pdf


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Alas, the ever insecure Dr. Mrs. BPD seeks confirmation, NOT validation, for nearly any decision she makes. 

I am often called upon to provide confirmation on things totally unrelated to my line of work, my domain knowledge, and so on. It is exhausting, far more so than dealing with a disorder. Somehow her head can handle complicated business analytics models yet can't decide which dress to wear at a party. Not validation that a particular dress shows off her features well, but asking me to decide for her or confirm her illogically complex thought process of selecting the dress.

There isn't a day that I will not receive a text message or be asked for my input on a totally irrelevant issue. My girls already contemplate calling me Zoltar... My input is valued for irrelevancies but unwelcome on important stuff.

Interestingly enough, positive validation usually has the opposite of the expected outcome. If I complement her on her choice of clothes and looks (she looks pretty good for her age, still a size 6) I can be certain that something approximating a trash bag will be worn the next time for fear of getting my hormonal hopes high as she put it. If I complement he on her cooking of a western or eastern food we enjoy (she's a pretty good cook) we can be guaranteed to eat cream of squirrel for a week for fear of us getting used to expensive and unhealthy foods as she again puts it...

Likewise, invalidating bad behavior has little effect. She has several bad habits that the more I point out the more she will do them. It's more of a toddler limit discovery behavior than anything else.

It seems she's determined to live her life the way she wants and reality be damned. Seeking confirmation is part of this strategy and aims to provide a convenient scapegoat in case things go bad. 

You have to remember the reasons why validation or invalidation don't work for her or for me. She can see her trophy wall with her college degrees, successful career, and making it in the USA on her own (with more than a little help from her friends as the Beatles would croon) and so on; validation not required. Likewise, as a visibly foreign born woman in a male dominated field there isn't much she hasn't heard already so she's developed good immunity to negative feedback.

I'm not much different but for different reasons. I don't care about much in life, so constant ego feeding via validation won't buy me much; likewise as a visibly foreign born man it's not like I haven't heard my share of krap so... 

I'm well versed in validation, having used it to push my girls to astonishing academic success and self confidence to match. I'm no stranger to invalidation either, much to the horror of various suitors who would like to date my girls . But dealing with the good Dr. is elusive at best and frustrating in general...


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

She sounds an awful lot like my wife.

Many of our arguments were exactly about my wife seeking confirmation for 'extremely incorrect' theories. 

About a third of those incorrect theories seemed to be the result of just being extremely bad at understanding human interaction - she basically started out with a different cultural model and doesn't have the intuitive feel to adapt it to the US. She does better, although not well, with Koreans, as mild paranoia is perfectly appropriate there. 'Okay, she said hi, a herd of geese passed through. That means she's threatening me by telling me she can see our house.'

About 2/3rd of those incorrect theories arose from her trying to explain bad outcomes in ways that didn't involve her making weird mistakes. 'They hate me because they're jealous!!!' 'The house is messy because you don't instantly clean up after yourself and therefore I drop stuff everywhere all day.'

She pretty much spent her life knowing, deep down, that she was odd, and screaming, constantly, 'I'm ok, everyone else is just screwed up.' So, yes, compliment her on a good behavior and she'll tend to avoid it because change would mean admitting that she'd done something wrong in the past. Criticize her on a bad behavior and she does it more - because obviously, it is ok.

But, I think soulpotato is describing something different with validation. It isn't compliments. Just, when possible, acknowledging the portion of her feelings or beliefs that are reasonable and valid.

The problem is...my experience was similar to john117's, when my partner was looking for confirmation of crazy beliefs... I never found much to validate. And, in her words, validation missed the point. She wanted confirmation that she was completely correct. And wouldn't stop until I'd either told her she was wrong (screaming rage->collapse) or told her she was right (usually, another topic...realistically she was picking a fight half the time).

I tried for a long time, but, with my wife, validation was 90%+ a waste of time. There were a few conversations (4 or 5 in 10 years) where it came in handy, but it was mostly a distraction that tended to confuse and frustrate her. 'WTF FEELINGS!!! #$% Seriously, you're just confusing me. Too many words. Stop talking about my feelings. There's no emotion here. Are they stalking me???' Of course, for those few conversations, it was great...a genuine emotion...we understood each other...connected for a bit...yay. But, mostly worse than useless. Now, some portion of this was because, if she felt bad, she'd usually talk about something else for the first 6 hours...but probably not most of it.

Now, on the bright side, after visiting a bunch of Aspie groups, she's concluded that she is weird and that people sometimes don't like her because she is weird. So, this sort of argument is mostly gone from her life.

However, this has, if anything, increased the bigger time sink/aggravation portion - which is the Zoltar effect. 
'Is my hair ok?' 'Should I wear this dress?' 'Please read my email before I send it.' 'Help!!!' 'I can't fill in a 1 page form.' 'Do I need to apologize for saying hi?' 

The trick is...she really is trying. And, when I don't help, she just fails. Over and over and over again. I spent a lot of years being frustrated over this portion. Sigh. Then, I got tired of her accidentally burning herself when cooking while overloaded...

I dunno. I'm mostly just accepting that there's a broad range of stuff that she can't cope with. And trying to simplify our lives to minimize the burden on myself. The problem is that people don't learn without challenge, so I'm trying to not create unnecessary dependency while still, eg, avoiding too many injuries. I'm not at all sure I'm getting that balance right. Currently the main problems are around shared responsibilities - like parenting and living in the same house. There's coping strategies for Aspies, and they tend to help. The big ones are headphones with music playing and acceptance. I'd like to see some forward planning...eh...we all have our dreams.

--Argyle


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Argyle, this is the first time in 54 years I'm left speechless. Don't know if it is validation or confirmation  but I'm really blown away.... 

I could have written nearly every word except for the messy part. My wife is a neatness freak. Other than that it's all there.

Thank you!


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

@john I'm also grateful for your post. Confirmation - not validation - I could never put my finger on exactly what was different. It is good to know I'm not alone.

Particularly since there are a lot of well-meaning people with different experiences who tend to keep returning to validation as if it is actually useful. I understand that validation works for some people - it just pretty much completely failed for me in the context of my wife. I've found it pretty useful for dealing with frustrated people at work, so, eh, not a complete waste of time.

...for neatness, there seem to be two ways to deal with autism...
...one involves giving up in an unhygenic way.
...the other involves being a neat freak.

In hope some of this may be useful, for us, stuff that helped (in order of cost-effectiveness) Of course, different couples are different...:
(a) Attending Aspie groups->she accepted that she was different.
(b) Attending board-gaming groups (giant overlap in our area)
(c) Me taking the books below, reading through them, and summarizing lessons from the books. And then summarizing them to her in the car when we were going too fast for her to jump out. Persistently. That reminds me, it is about time to start with the second book.
(d) Me accepting that she was weird. Me just asking which things she could handle and which she couldn't and figuring out which accommodations I could make. (I won't clean up after her much, but I will tell her when she smells bad and help her if she overloads while cooking and tell her when she's stuck.) (After reviewing a couple of books on autism...there are 2 which were particularly useful...one by Grandin, the other by...no memory.)*
(e) Not trying to validate constantly or talk about emotions. 
(f) Headphones.
(g) Me telling her the absolute truth when she becomes abusive. (breakdowns were memorable, but change was apparent.) Honestly, pain is a good teacher.
(h) DBT therapy (but I think it laid a lot of foundation along the way.)
(i) Communications courses
(j) MC (we had lovely, highly competent MCs, and they did help, but mostly by providing a contrast between normal behavior and my wife's behavior...)

--Argyle
*This wasn't so much because I was hoping for improvement in the mentioned behaviors. I was hoping to invalidate her 'everyone else is crazy' defense. If she picks up a few helpful tips, heck, it'd be nice. Dunno. I think of it as gently beating someone down with their flaws.

Besides, it provides background material for exactly how she is messing up at any given moment - which simplifies later discussions.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

I don't know a whole lot about BPD but it seems the spouses who choose to stay may forever be in a caretaker
role! Bless those who stay, it's not something I think I could do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I see it all as a giant science experiment. Also, if my wife was stricken with a life threatening disease that requires lengthy hard work what would I do, stuff her in a FedEx box and ship her to Farawaystan 2nd day air to her family?

I know she likely would do just that in case something happened to me but I like to believe I'm better than that...


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

My husband is a born caretaker. Thankfully now he's more husband than caregiver but you are right that's what it takes with people like me. I try hard but there are limits to what I can handle.

Sucks.

Hats off to you men who stick around. We know we don't deserve it but are grateful you do. At least this is how I feel.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Attending any kind of a support group or therapy is a no-no. As the Klingons would say, it is a sign of weakness (or accepting reality).

Board games not likely either, she has zero patience in general. 

Telling her about what's going on with her head - not going to work either. I told her what BPD is, my daughter's therapist told her, it flew right above her head. This is someone who runs to the doctor for the smallest issue.

Acceptance, sure. She listens to me if I frame things the way she wants to hear or when there's no good way around an issue.

Not validating. It does not work, despite glorious recommendations from many sources. Not for her.

A TV for background noise and headphones for me. Thankfully we live in a huge house so it's not an issue.

Telling her like it is when it hits the fan and stooping down to her level of behavior if needed when she's having her visits to Illogicon.

Have not tried DBT or MC and her communication skills could be better so it's likely a waste. I'm contemplating DIY DBT with her.

The main concern I have with her now that I know my daughters came out of it with few issues, if any, is the growing lack of any emotional connection between us. We did pretty ok for 25 years almost when her symptoms were a nuisance at best but a series of unfortunate events about 5 years ago seems to have triggered full BPD. Took a couple years to sort it out but the last few years have been an emotional void....


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

See, I'm a bit manipulative. So, I started by agreeing that I was obviously hopelessly autistic and that that was the cause of all her problems. And then became super-enthusiastic about going through books intended to help us end our R/S woes. 

...she's gullible, but fairly logical. So, when we went through the books, she noticed that she fit the profile, really, really well.

...then, I stayed enthusiastic. Because we really needed to fix those problems with me. And just wanted her to come along so she could pick up tips on dealing with her horrible husband.

...then, about 30 minutes into the group, she started cluing in, shaking, and saying that she'd found her people. The correspondence really wasn't hard to make.

Of course, having her blame every problem in her life on other people being crazy or autistic really helped here.

Headphones for my wife and constant music help a lot.

Regarding boardgames, on one hand, she has melted down in the group. But, not so much, and she finds many of the people in our group wonderfully relaxing. I mean - depends on the game - but think of them as nested logic puzzles - s'ideal for mathies.

For emotional connection, um. My wife is not someone you should go to with an emotional problem. That's probably unrealistic. Shared, somewhat scripted activities can help. We do board games and watch movies. And sometimes go to pretty places. One problem is that her clumsiness and self-consciousness means that most physical activities are not likely to happen. I'm working on getting her into cribbage. Conversation can work better if there's a book-on-tape or a news show or something in the background.

--Argyle


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The feisty Dr. would not attend anything wven if it was me who was the "patient". She did with our older girl as "family" counseling and that was more or less it. I could even see why so few therapists avoid BPD's altogether. 

The only activity she enjoys doing with me is landscaping - she has incredible stamina (growing up with 110F temps helps). Most of the time she is in her own little universe. Most of the talk is about her work (50%), her family (20%) the house (20%), other people (10%) and nearly 0% the girls and me... 

We used to enjoy nice and expensive vacations but the one instance of total disconnect was enough to pretty much shut me down. Imagine an anniversary Alaska cruise, the two of us in a lounge with some decent drinks, and her being silent for 2 hours. That was an astonishing moment. Not that I expected anything more like a romantic night in our stateroom or anything, but dude, talk is free... That was pretty much all she wrote on the emotional front a year ago...


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> My husband is a born caretaker. Thankfully now he's more husband than caregiver but you are right that's what it takes with people like me. I try hard but there are limits to what I can handle.
> 
> Sucks.
> 
> Hats off to you men who stick around. We know we don't deserve it but are grateful you do. At least this is how I feel.


Mavash, I'm assuming over the years he has had to learn what to do and not do? What to say and not say in order to not trigger anything. I also think with you getting the help you have, that has probably helped as well. I dont think every spouse is cut out to stay with someone who is BPD etc, sounds like your husband was and is doing a good job.

For me, I don't think I could. I think my problem would be, I would take things way to personally. Even though I would know in my mind the way a BPD person may act/react isn't about me, I still think it would hurt me or damage me personally. I don't see how it couldn't living with someone that has damaging behaviors. Thats just me I guess.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Then, the only one which sounds workable is the, um, aggressive approach.

I read Grandin's book on social R/S. Then, told my wife that there were a few problems in our R/S that we needed to work on.

Then, I'd go through one chapter at a time in the format of:
'Here's a list of problematic behaviors: ....'
'That you do.'
'Okay, you understand that this stuff is problematic - and that you actually do it. Blame? I'm talking now. Shut up.'
'Well, the technical term for this is, eg, executive dysfunction.'
'Lots of people have this problem.' (If she's in math, she's met quite a few over the years, guaranteed.')
'Here are some recommended coping techniques.'
'See anything that might sound workable?'

Timing is important. Here are some great places.
(a) You driving on the highway. She's unlikely to want road rash.
(b) Plane flights.
...my wife was quite good at avoiding these talks. But, well, early morning drives to Mass were particularly efficacious. Too early for her to dodge.

Just because your spouse ends up screaming and crying on the floor, doesn't mean that you're doing something wrong.

I got through the book in 4 lessons. With an implicit promise to repeat the lessons if she relapsed into blaming the world for her failures. She was hurt, but there weren't many tears.

When I get around to it, I have another book on life skills for autistics and plan on delivering similar lessons. (constant pressure isn't good either)

Landscaping isn't bad. Not my cuppa tea (allergies...) but...not bad.

Unfortunately, if your wife is like mine, you're probably more adaptable than she is. For my wife, any sort of empathy towards emotional states is problematic. She's basically guessing blind. And yes, romantic cruise, she'll stare blindly into space. That's just a limit of her capability. Physical cues help a lot. (a lot of PDA, she'll reciprocate occasionally) Particularly when combined with verbal cues. We use a code word to initiate eye contact...and I just hug her and drag her to me frequently. She's very receptive towards me helping her fit in.

But, overall, there's just some love languages she'll never speak. So, it is up to me to get my needs met. Adaptation helps. Eye contact is something that was a real bonus. And lots of hugs. And demanding backrubs. Still lonely, but livable. The romantic chat...or the gushing over your daughters...probably too much to hope. Although, I can initiate talks about the future...

It helped me to accept that my wife actually meant well, probably more consistently than I did. And to focus on her virtues more than her faults.

--Argyle


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## motherofone (Jan 10, 2013)

My biggest problem right now is the settlement. Why must they argue over everything? (NPD)

Any tips to operate in reality and reach a deal? Yes I have an attorney and he has one too but keeps trying to get around using them. I am too stressed not to use one. Just costs money and he blames me.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...good luck.
Splitting is a lovely book.

...overall, let your attorney deal with him. That's why they're paid so fricking much. It may help to list out your goals, discuss with the lawyer, and then let the lawyer handle all communications.

...there is also software for dealing with communicating with crazy people. Eg., 'Our Family Wizard'. The bonus is that it logs all the crazy if you insist on using that as your only means of communication.

...prior to initiating divorce, I'd recommend being as aggressive possible in terms of temporary support payments. Crazy people are often rational, and people who anticipate having their payments drop are motivated to move towards settlement. (I'm not a lawyer, just seems reasonable.)

...other than that, take heart, the crazies often fold before trial approaches. For NPD, if there is anything particularly embarrassing, it might be useful to ask your lawyer whether or not it should come up at trial.

--Argyle


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## motherofone (Jan 10, 2013)

I am not creative enough to make some of the antics of late up. People off the street would assume I was crazy. I keep a reality check with my family and friends to be sure my feet stay grounded. 

Everyone tells me I should write a book!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

motherofone said:


> I am not creative enough to make some of the antics of late up. People off the street would assume I was crazy. I keep a reality check with my family and friends to be sure my feet stay grounded.
> 
> Everyone tells me I should write a book!


Us brave souls may be too creative or persistent for our own good... Every time I come up with a technique to avoid today's blow up or handle a particular situation I half envision my name in Nature magazine or some such... 

It's what I tell my girls. Why do people climb Mt Everest? 'Cause it is there...


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Jamison said:


> ...... The thing that bothered me more than anything was her ability to fool people. In front of friends, co workers and her family and my family, she could put on a show!
> 
> They had no clue how she really was behind closed doors.


It does take some time and realisation to see just how good at this they are. My stbxw will forever be in my life because of the children but looking at the way she manipulates/d others around her from an outsiders point of view is almost comical. I can't believe we fall for it. Even now she's better than ever at living this lie. Thank Christ I'm not in there with her any more 



Mavash. said:


> ....... but I don't put up with his crap either. The world does not will not ever cater to him and the sooner he learns this lesson the better.......


I think this is good Mavash, too many BPDs from what I see are given a free pass because of their 'issues'
I'm convinced if somebody in her teens had really got a grip on this behavioir although she would stil have problems she would not have been aboe to get away with deceiving the world in general and would hav ehad to become more 'honest' within herself. My stbx I have realised, has through her illness and portraying this 'victim' card all of her life, been allowed to get whatever she wanted, to have what she wants, when she wants. I am the first person ever in her life who at the end of our marriage, whilst fighting for my kids, house, money etc has stood in her way and said "NO". 
She's now treating me as if I was some alien from Mars who has ruined her life ! 



motherofone said:


> I am not creative enough to make some of the antics of late up. People off the street would assume I was crazy. I keep a reality check with my family and friends to be sure my feet stay grounded. Everyone tells me I should write a book!


You up for a collaboration then 



CallaLily said:


> I don't know a whole lot about BPD but it seems the spouses who choose to stay may forever be in a caretaker
> role! Bless those who stay, it's not something I think I could do.


It's very difficult because we're talking about love here and with that comes support. 

I think that has changed in me now. I think If I fell into the greatest love of my life tomorrow but I suspected they had BPD I'd be gone before the first kiss. 

No more caretaking for me 

It's very sad but when you have put so much on the line for this kind of person and then you are free of it all and understanding that essentially you have been in an abuse situation you will find it very difficult to go back into something like that 

Now I am me again, just worrying about myself, I cannot believe the shvt I have put up with for 15 years, that I have allowed my kids to put up with for ten years because of her BPD


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

CallaLily said:


> Mavash, I'm assuming over the years he has had to learn what to do and not do? What to say and not say in order to not trigger anything. I also think with you getting the help you have, that has probably helped as well. I dont think every spouse is cut out to stay with someone who is BPD etc, sounds like your husband was and is doing a good job.
> 
> For me, I don't think I could. I think my problem would be, I would take things way to personally. Even though I would know in my mind the way a BPD person may act/react isn't about me, I still think it would hurt me or damage me personally. I don't see how it couldn't living with someone that has damaging behaviors. Thats just me I guess.


I take ownership of my triggers and communicate what I need. I reassure him often that its me not him. I appreciate him and am grateful he stayed while I healed, I'm grateful he takes care of me when I can't. Overall I'm a fabulous wife my struggles now are mostly stress related. There are limits to what I can handle in a day but I'm aware and work around that as much as I can. The other issue is separation anxiety which we've agreed he will no longer travel unless he absolutely has to. If possible I will go with him. Bottom line is we actively seek solutions that work for both is us. It's not all on him and it shouldn't be.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

The other day my son had a bad day at school. He proceeded to get snippy with me and his sister despite the fact that we were trying to help him. I came down on him firmly. Use your words I told him. "Thanks I'm having a bad day. Can we do that later?". Communicate what you need I told him because nobody can read your mind. We as a family are willing to work with his triggers but he must be nice and he must communicate his needs.


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## motherofone (Jan 10, 2013)

I am one step closer to being out of this mess. Sociopath NPD will hopefully start moving on now that separation docs have been signed. I hit the enough is enough point. Now onward.


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## 2galsmom (Feb 14, 2013)

motherofone said:


> Do people with Personality Disorders have the ability to come out of the FOG? Like BPD or NPD?


Get out of the FOG yourself, have a detox from him and you will see a whole new reality and clarity returns to your life. It is like coming back into the atmosphere from space and it is not a comfortable jolt when he see how BAD it really was with your significant other. Never again fall into the co-dependent enabling trap of "hoping" they will change and be the reasonable person you want them to be, you believe people should be.

I warn you, they do not move on. What has changed for him? Nothing. The game has just intensified in his mind, he can still "win." You must be strong and educate yourself on the pysychopath's ability to "love" or inability as it would be. Look into your own past as to reasons why you interpreted his activity as "love" and tolerated his behavior, that way you can make different choices in the future. Journaling helped me, save me if you will.

Be strong, do it for yourself, do it for your child.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Personality disorders are not like a bout of depression. They permeate the entire personality -- hence the name. It takes learning new skills and doing a lot of interior work to be able to get past some of the common behaviors. Most of the time that doesn't happen because a person with a PD doesn't believe there's anything wrong with him/her. Everyone else is the problem. So they don't go seek help. It's very uncommon for someone to be convinced that they have a PD and for them to go to therapy and stick with it long enough to really change their lives and salvage relationships. Most of the time they just move on. 

So, basically, no. PD's are not a 'fog', and they don't spontaneously lift.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...as far as I can tell, one of the central features of most personality disorders involves an aversion to honest introspection. I would guess that any person with a personality disorder who actually starts going to therapy and making any sort of effort has a reasonably hopeful prognosis. Of course, sustained effort isn't that easy when you're crazy, but...

This is different from simply being bullied into going by a desperate spouse, which rarely works for anyone.

--Argyle


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

argyle said:


> ...as far as I can tell, one of the central features of most personality disorders involves an aversion to honest introspection


Yep and that's why it's largely everyone else's fault.

That's what stupidly it took years for me to understand - it was never her fault

wasted wasted years


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## 2galsmom (Feb 14, 2013)

If you receive advice, to monitor and frame everything you say to a spouse with a personality disorder to "control" or evoke a desired response from them- let me tell you that it is BAD advice.

It takes you DEEPER into crazy town, not out of crazy town.

From my experience, in the name of peace this is what a spouse ends up doing naturally and you end up taking on the characteristics of the person with personality disorder(s).

You end up lying to them as well, just to survive the day or get anything accomplished.

Example, "Thank you so much for paying for the groceries, that was such a nice thing to do for us (since you are the breadwinner and we need food to SURVIVE), it was really a nice thing to do, I want you to know we appreciate you."

"May I have your permission to . . . 


"May I have your permission to a) see a dermatologist as you point out my skin tone is so blotchy after pregnancy you deserve better b) take the kids to gymnastics, you can come and check and make sure the people are "okay" and of the "right type" who attend. . ." etc. etc.

This is just a suggestion, I would never tell you what to do but, perhaps we should actually do some research into what you are saying instead of impulsively buying this house at a realtor's open house.

WASTED WASTED WASTED years.


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## motherofone (Jan 10, 2013)

I agree with 2galsmom. You can't cater to the PD. If you do you will completely loose yourself.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

I'd argue that it is important to be quite strict about not catering to people with PDs, more so than with a sane person. Overall, healthy advice, in my opinion, centers around maintaining or learning appropriate and effective responses to disordered behavior. Admittedly, the healthy response to PD people is to run and run fast.

There is a gray area. On one hand, therapeutic relationships are unhealthy, in general. On the other hand, validating the emotions of low functioning borderlines can work better than simply telling them that they're wrong. So, sometimes, if your partner is genuinely feeling upset over something, it can help to practice validation of their emotions - which are sometimes genuine and real. This is a reasonably healthy behavior to do with sane people too.

That said, I've personally found validation to be worse than useless when dealing with a high functioning (fairly narcissistic) borderline. My wife tended to be essentially uninterested in emotion and focused on gathering agreement regarding her view of reality. Validating BS is silly. So is validating abuse. And validating gaslighting. The best solution I ever found (given that abandonment is a serious trigger for her) is just to explain exactly why her argument is completely incorrect and walk away while she melts down or until she begs me to let her walk away... Now, when I ask her if she wants my honest opinion, the answer is usually no.

...one thing to accept is that healthy behavior around a PD person will immediately increase conflict significantly.

--Argyle


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## 2galsmom (Feb 14, 2013)

I agree again Argyle. I validated to survive. No, in fact I was undermining my own survival. They use their fear of abandonment as a weapon.

Amen to being healthy triggering conflict. When I was tired of going along with the everyone else is the problem and I will worship you and have blind faith in you and I chose let us just be happy with what we have, let's go to church, let us have friends, please stop hating everyone, BAM! VIOLENCE GALORE!

Seriously, get out of these relationships people. Please!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ditto Argyle's validation with HF BPD's... By virtue of their HF they do not take their crumbs when validated but may use the just validated statement as a steps tone for even more absurd behavior... 

A healthy conflict is far more useful (if tiring) technique to clear some of the fog...


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...I will say that there's variation in people with personality disorders. I'd never doubt a decision to leave, and would often doubt a decision to stay, but not all such R/S are completely hopeless.

...following a period of increased conflict, my wife actually improved significantly and has continued improving.

...I agree, to some extent, wiith john117. I've found that occasional healthy or sometimes unhealthy conflict is undervalued. Continual conflict is pointless, but there are plenty of marriages that have survived, and possibly even been stronger for the occasional screaming row where no one backs down. My rule of thumb is that, if you're the sort of person who would never shout at someone, you might want to try it, once or twice. Trying something once or twice won't, or shouldn't break a marriage.

...overall though, partially because the documentation is sometimes useful for divorce, in couples with children and not a ton of violence, I favor an approach where you simply outline problematic behaviors and needed changes and a timeline to get you to stay, stop tolerating bad behavior, and proceed with divorce. A significant fraction of PD spouses will react to this with actual change. For the rest, you haven't wasted a whole ton of time and have made a good faith, rational, effort which will tend to go over well with judges. However, I should mention that this is the gentlest approach that I see as rational. Serving them papers and walking off is probably more sensible.

--Argyle


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