# A MUCH needed talk that didn't end the way I had hoped



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

This may end up being a long post, but if you can stick with me, and offer good input, I'd appreciate it(especially from the ladies). It may not even belong in the Sex thread, but none of the other threads seemed like they fit this either.

I just found this forum last week. I was looking for help and solutions to a somewhat sexless marriage. The title of my post was "My Wife Seems To Have Lost Interest In Me, Sexually". I also posted another one, titled "Advice from the ladies". If you were to read those posts, you'd have some insight on where this post is going...

Last night I had a long, deep, very open conversation with my wife about our sex life, or lack thereof. It was a conversation that needed to be had, and was suggested by a couple of the women who replied to my other forum posts. If you read my other posts, you'll see that last week there was movement in a positive direction, so I'm not overlooking that. But, like I said, we still needed to have this conversation.

The first thing I talked about was how desperately I need to be wanted. And not just "I want you around the house. I need you in my life" wanted, but really, passionately WANTED. As we lied in bed, she listened intently to everything I had to say. I told her how I have learned over the years that she's not going to be interested in sex if I'm not doing my part to cause her to want sex. I told her that I now realize that women are wired to respond to certain things that I wasn't good at doing. I admitted to not understanding her emotional needs for many years, but that as much as can be expected of a man, I think I now know what she needs. I committed to do everything I can to make sure her needs are being met. 

I also talked about how there's no woman on earth that I'd rather be with and that everything about her is a turn on to me. I told her how think about her throughout the day and can't wait to see her when I get home. How I love to see her naked, I love to touch her, I love for her to touch me, I fantasize about her every day, to the point of sometimes not being able to get up from my desk, if you know what I mean.... I told her there's nothing I rather do than to lay in bed naked and just explore each others bodies. To find spots we didn't know we liked to be touched. To be completely uninhibited when we're together and simply enjoy each other as much as is humanly possible. 

I told her that one area that I've gotten wrong, in large part, is that I stopped dating her when we got married. I stopped trying to impress her because I didn't see the need. I thought my work was finished. I think she is guilty of that as well, but obviously I didn't mention that. I trust she will be able to look in the mirror on her own. I admitted that I should have never stopped dating her. I told her I am going to start treating her like I would if I was still trying to win her over, to put her first and always make her happiness more important than my own. I told her I was going to focus on being selfless, not selfish. I said "what could possibly be wrong about pursuing each other for the rest of our lives as if we were dating"? 

I then told her that I want us to try to take time every single day, even if it's only 30 minutes of us going to bed and talking or reading a book together. Just to be alone and focus on each other. No kids, no phones, no Facebook. Just us! 

After sharing all these thought with her, which took about 20 minutes. I simply said to her. "What do you think about all of that"? Her reply..."That's a lot to process". So I asked, her what she meant by that, and she said again, "it's a lot to process. I'm not sure what I think".

That was it. Conversation over. She asked my if I was done, and I said I was. I turned the lights off, have her a kiss, told her I loved her, and she turned off the light and went to sleep.

Is it me, or was that response a bit lacking? I would have thought she'd be tickled pink to hear me say "I want to keep dating you for the rest of my life". "I want to spend more time with you and focus on you". "I want to put you first and be completely selfless, rather than selfish". "I want us to have a passionate marriage that others dream of". Ladies, please give me your feedback. How would you respond to something like this from your husband? Is she really "processing" what I said? Could she have not shown some emotion, good or bad, to the things I was saying? I just feel like I opened up my heart to her in a way that I'm not sure I ever have, and I ended up going to sleep, asking myself, "did I just waste my time and emotions for nothing"?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Luvistuff,

Exact same response from my wife when I *just about verbatim* said the same thing to her. In fact, took my W a few weeks to see I was serious(through my actions) that she finally grasped where I was coming from. Where I planned on going with us together into the future. Even then, she was a bit skeptical and was wondering if I would be the same old she has seen for years 6 months from now. 

Let her process it. Right now she is thinking, "Who are you? What have you done with my H?" As for you, the words are spoken. Your actions to obtain what you have spoken to your W need to begin. Plan on sticking to it from this day forward. 

Most of all, your honesty and talk with you W is the one best thing you can do IMO.

Start your new day with the leaf you just turned over.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

If this is the first conversation of this nature that you've initiated with her, she may just be confused and shocked. If you're not a talker in general, or don't typically "do" relationship talks, she may be wondering what's gotten into you. I know if my now-ex-husband had ever said all that to me, I would have wondered where the hell my husband went and if I could keep this new guy? It would have been so out of character for him that I probably wouldn't have been able to formulate an appropriate response. 

There is the possibility that she's heard all this before, gotten her hopes up before, and been disappointed before. If you have a track record of strongly pursuing new things - from projects to hobbies to personal or relationship changes - only to taper them off within a short period of time as your attention wanders, she may be wondering how long all this will last before you revert to form.

And, of course, there's the possibility that what you said was so close to what she's been trying to convey to you for umpteen years that you presenting it as your own little epiphany just pissed her off. She might have been taken aback - and resentful - that what she's been telling you never sunk in, but now that all this is "your idea" you're confronting her with it like she's the slacker. There were a few times that happened in my marriage. It generally made me so angry that I needed to step away and calm down before I said something we'd both regret. She might have needed time to process her feelings so that her response would be of a more helpful nature than her initial knee-jerk reaction. If that's the case, take heart that her outraged disbelief will likely diminish to the point she can talk with you about it without wanting to brain you with a skillet.

My guess is that there's probably an element of all three of the above going on. Give her a few days and try to talk with her again about it. This time, ask her thoughts before you reiterate your own.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

My thoughts:
Perhaps she is waiting to see if you will follow through on your conversation. My ex would say, when pushed, that we should have more date nights, that it was what he wanted. But then nothing happened.
If this was a conversation different from anything you've said during the marriage then she may be wondering what brought this on, who have you been speaking to, and do you really mean it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Well her reaction is disappointing on one hand. On the other hand, she heard you out. She told you her truth.. that she was not sure what to think [at that point in time]. Give her time. She has to mull it over, process it. That was a lot you put out all at one time.

Most of all do not stop doing what you have been doing recently. If you stop now, she will take all of what you said as just empty words.

Also.. did you buy the books? Have you read them yet?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Rowan said:


> My guess is that there's probably an element of all three of the above going on. Give her a few days and try to talk with her again about it. This time, ask her thoughts before you reiterate your own.


^^^^I would go with this assessment. I did not think my W was resentful because after 20 years of hoping I would be more intimate. Just never crossed my mind. She did not appear to be resentful. More, relieved. Happy. Thankful. Relief. She always felt it was she as the problem for me basically being a room mate. It was not the case. 

Anyway, we are on high level in our marriage since I turned it around. I hope your's gets there too!


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

Well my friend there is no answer. When talking to a LD person about how you feel, They don't understand or get it.You see they have very little feeling about anyone but them. They are not it touch with the planet earth. They have no need for mutual touch , No need to kiss , hug, cuddle They feel nothing is missing and are very content were they are in life . They do not require to be close to you nor will they ever tell you whats are thier mind . Never in a millions yrs. will they respond to a conversation about the two of you. They have very little feeling outside of them . Your wasting you time trying to share your feelings with them. Go talk to the fence post my friend. You will have better luck changing it. I could sound bitter ,But I have relized lately that L.D. is not a temporally place . Its a path that some take in life. But still wants all thats comes with a normal relationship. Spot wasting time explaining whats right or normal in life to her.


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## Joe Cool (Feb 24, 2015)

My hunch is she suspects it as manipulation to get her to put out.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I told her that one area that I've gotten wrong, in large part, is that I stopped dating her when we got married. I stopped trying to impress her because I didn't see the need. I thought my work was finished. I t


A lot of men do this. It's not good.

I think her repsonse isn't bad.She was honest with you. Keep talking to her and communicating. Do you guys ever have sex or have you gone sexless?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

OK, you got that all off your chest.

This should be the LAST time you ever give this speech to her.

This speech was about you, not her.

I am speaking as someone who has been in your shoes. This speech was received by her as whiny. Guaranteed. She did you a favor by not responding. You would not have liked the response.

If you were wondering whether she really knew the extent of your problem, now that mystery is solved. She knows. Now only actions count.

Let your actions speak for themselves and judge her by her actions.

I promise you that if you try to have this same conversation repeatedly, it will only set you back. I wish I wasn't so convinced of this, but I believe this is certain.


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## CincyBluesFan (Feb 27, 2015)

Don't panic my good man. You may have let your marriage go on auto-pilot without even consciously knowing. Now you just took it off auto-pilot and realized you want to do the flying. That's awesome. That's a big step/epiphany on your part and I salute you. What you need to do now is follow through. Be that attentive man wanting to earn her love. Help her with tasks around the house. It's all the little things. Give her that foot rub. When she lays down on the couch go get her a blanket and pillow. Never get yourself a drink or snack without finding out what she wants.

All us long-timers have periods where we've allowed auto-pilot to kick in. The key is recognizing it before years go by. Maybe it sounds dumb but you could set a reminder in your phone, or wherever, to recur monthly, semi-annually, or annually for you to do some self-reflection and take a state of the union assessment.

I do that. I didn't do it for the first 10-15 years of my marriage and we used to fight a lot more back then. Most of us get annual reviews with our jobs but not with our relationships. I do my own self-reviews now. One for being a husband and one for being a father.

One more piece of advice. Don't let pride interfere with your resolve to do these things and do the right thing. Pride has killed more potentially good marriages than infidelity has.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

CincyBluesFan said:


> Be that attentive man wanting to earn her love. Help her with tasks around the house. It's all the little things. Give her that foot rub. When she lays down on the couch go get her a blanket and pillow. Never get yourself a drink or snack without finding out what she wants.


^^^You will find she will reciprocate. I have noticed my W does and I appreciate it. I tell her so. 

I would like to add, a bunch of flowers for no particular reason other than you are thinking about her goes a long way.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

When My wife says that it means "I'm tired and I'm going to sleep now, hopefully you will have forgotten this when we wake up".

On a good day she will pick up one or two things and she will bring them up if she agrees.
MN


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

LuvIsTuff said:


> T I admitted to not understanding her emotional needs for many years...


You can't expect her to start jumping up and down after so many years of not meeting her emotional needs just because you have come to a realization that she did a long time ago.

Prove what you said and every now and then get her to confirm that you are doing better. If she doesn't start changing then you can point out where she acknowledged you have made changes and can address why she isn't.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Joe Cool said:


> My hunch is she suspects it as manipulation to get her to put out.


I would not be surprised if she thought this. 



> Last night I had a long, deep, very open conversation with my wife about our sex life, or lack thereof.


The talk about him getting more sex.

Luv, I hope your wife did not take it that way. Keep up the action... dating her, etc. Women tend to know when a man is doing something to get sex vs doing something because they want to be with us and love us.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Rowan said:


> If this is the first conversation of this nature that you've initiated with her, she may just be confused and shocked.
> 
> There is the possibility that she's heard all this before, gotten her hopes up before, and been disappointed before.
> 
> And, of course, there's the possibility that what you said was so close to what she's been trying to convey to you for umpteen years that you presenting it as your own little epiphany just pissed her off. She might have been taken aback - and resentful - that what she's been telling you never sunk in, but now that all this is "your idea" you're confronting her with it like she's the slacker.


We have had this conversation many times, but it's never been with me sharing how I can see where I went wrong. It's always been about what I need, but never about why it's my fault I'm not getting it. She's never expressed anything close to what I said was the problem, so she definitely can't be resentful that I claimed responsibility for figuring this out. 

One thing that I will mention, since it's a recurring point, is that I'm not suddenly doing things differently. Over the past 2-3 years, I have been slowing changing and treating her differently. If you were able to ask her(and I asked last night), she would tell you that she has noticed a difference and that I have changed. 

I'll give her a couple of days to think on things and then ask her what she thinks.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Just Wondering said:


> Well my friend there is no answer. When talking to a LD person about how you feel, They don't understand or get it.You see they have very little feeling about anyone but them. They are not it touch with the planet earth. They have no need for mutual touch , No need to kiss , hug, cuddle They feel nothing is missing and are very content were they are in life . They do not require to be close to you nor will they ever tell you whats are thier mind . Never in a millions yrs. will they respond to a conversation about the two of you. They have very little feeling outside of them . Your wasting you time trying to share your feelings with them. Go talk to the fence post my friend. You will have better luck changing it. I could sound bitter ,But I have relized lately that L.D. is not a temporally place . Its a path that some take in life. But still wants all thats comes with a normal relationship. Spot wasting time explaining whats right or normal in life to her.


She's not LD. If you asked her, she may say she is, but she's not. Her little sex kitten comes out to play from time to time, so I know it's in there. I just have to do better to get her to come out and play more often. 

As for the person who asked if we were in a "sexless" marriage, I'd say no. I've read of much worse. On average we have sex 2-3 times per month. Obviously I'd like a lot more, but it's not "sexless".


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## CincyBluesFan (Feb 27, 2015)

LuvIsTuff said:


> We have had this conversation many times, but it's never been with me sharing how I can see where I went wrong. It's always been about what I need, but never about why it's my fault I'm not getting it. She's never expressed anything close to what I said was the problem, so she definitely can't be resentful that I claimed responsibility for figuring this out.
> 
> One thing that I will mention, since it's a recurring point, is that I'm not suddenly doing things differently. Over the past 2-3 years, I have been slowing changing and treating her differently. If you were able to ask her(and I asked last night), she would tell you that she has noticed a difference and that I have changed.
> 
> I'll give her a couple of days to think on things and then ask her what she thinks.



I think you did good. You opened up. Maybe you overwhelmed her. Have you opened up before? Remember, at this point it's essential that you show her your commitment to being a better husband. You have to follow those good words of yours with actions. 99 times out of 100 your actions will be reciprocated. Never take a spouse for granted. Especially in the era of reduced values where people bail from a marriage at the drop of a hat. As husbands we won our wives once from all her other suitors. What we have to do now is make sure we continue to win her the rest of our lives. You've take a very important step toward that and I congratulate you. Remember what I said about pride. It can sabotage you. Pride really does come before a fall. Good luck.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You wife, like most people, seems to not know how to express what her needs are and what she needs. So having a needs talk with her when she does not know what she needs, is not going to work out very well.

She told you that gifts are her love language. But gifts seemed to make to difference. But as soon as you start spending quality time with her, she acts differently and wants more sex. This is pretty good evidence that she needs help in identifying her own needs.

That's what those books are about. You both need to read them.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> She's not LD. If you asked her, she may say she is, but she's not. Her little sex kitten comes out to play from time to time, so I know it's in there. I just have to do better to get her to come out and play more often.
> 
> As for the person who asked if we were in a "sexless" marriage, I'd say no. I've read of much worse. On average we have sex 2-3 times per month. Obviously I'd like a lot more, but it's not "sexless".


A sexless marriage is consider one where there is sex 10 or fewer times in a year.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Well her reaction is disappointing on one hand. On the other hand, she heard you out. She told you her truth.. that she was not sure what to think [at that point in time]. Give her time. She has to mull it over, process it. That was a lot you put out all at one time.
> 
> Most of all do not stop doing what you have been doing recently. If you stop now, she will take all of what you said as just empty words.
> 
> Also.. did you buy the books? Have you read them yet?


Yes, I ordered His Needs Her Needs. It should be here soon...


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## tippingpoint (Jan 6, 2015)

Just Wondering said:


> Well my friend there is no answer. When talking to a LD person about how you feel, They don't understand or get it.You see they have very little feeling about anyone but them. They are not it touch with the planet earth. They have no need for mutual touch , No need to kiss , hug, cuddle They feel nothing is missing and are very content were they are in life . They do not require to be close to you nor will they ever tell you whats are thier mind . Never in a millions yrs. will they respond to a conversation about the two of you. They have very little feeling outside of them . Your wasting you time trying to share your feelings with them. Go talk to the fence post my friend. You will have better luck changing it. I could sound bitter ,But I have relized lately that L.D. is not a temporally place . Its a path that some take in life. But still wants all thats comes with a normal relationship. Spot wasting time explaining whats right or normal in life to her.


This is a harsh assessment, but it's more right than wrong. An LD partner will never react in the way you truly want. It's not about how much you date her or clean the house or whatever, it's innate. You get 2 choices: 1. Move on, or 2. ACCEPT.


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## MacyLu (Mar 2, 2015)

I think if my husband told me those things I would be shocked and stunned - he is open about a lot of things but feelings isn't one of them but he certainly has them and I know better than to think he isn't just as sensitive and warm-hearted as myself. My point here is that if this is the first time you have ever opened up to your wife about your relationship she may be "shocked and awed" and thoroughly confused about what has prompted your openness, I know I would wonder the same if my husband suddenly opened up to me and might even let my mind wander from everything to serious health issues to infidelity.

Walk the talk and be kind, loving and thoughtful without going overboard. Step into your new dating role slowly while you both get used to the change as change is hard after we become so accustomed to old habits. 

Don't bring up the subject again unless she does and then lovingly remind her that your words are true. Be responsive and attentive but not overly so - nothing worse than a hovering and bothersome husband that tries too hard. Baby steps required here.

Truly commit to your words by demonstrating action. Watch how she responds. If something works keep doing it, if it doesn't stop.

Eye contact is especially important. She can see the love in your eyes, the smile on your face, your warm sincere laughter after her maybe not-so-funny jokes.

Really love and relish her for all she is, even the quirkiness that makes her uniquely yours, and show her that you love her completely, warts and all.

Laugh with her, have fun with her, tell her funny stories. Be her best friend.

And if you do all this perhaps the ice will melt and you will re-discover each other in a new and spectacular way you never thought possible.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

It's also possible that she feels just fine the way things are. 
She may be safe and happy in her little life cocoon.

with your speech, you are 'rocking the boat' and she doesn't want you to rock the boat. Not saying this is the case. Only one more possibility that I haven't seen proposed yet.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> A lot of men do this. It's not good.
> 
> I think her repsonse isn't bad.She was honest with you. Keep talking to her and communicating. Do you guys ever have sex or have you gone sexless?


As usual, I'm ambivalent about this.

Expecting a man to keep up the same level of attention to his spouse that he displayed during courting is as unreasonable as expecting a woman to keep the sexual frequency at that same fevered pitch throughout the marriage (assumptions about who has the stronger sex drive duly noted and ignored for purposes of the argument). 

Think back to when you were dating. Consider how much time you spent thinking about your SO just as you were falling in love. How many other obligations you let slide, at least temporarily. How many friends saw less of you. That stupid all-consuming love that turned your brain into so much gray mush for the better part of a year.

A marriage requires a more mature love to survive. Infatuation and the associated disruption it causes would be fatal to most relationships if it continued forever. So while of course husbands should not neglect their wives, it is not reasonable to assume that they will, can, or should continue to behave as if they have not yet won her over. 

Realism in our expectations for our partners goes a long way in keeping us together.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

jorgegene said:


> It's also possible that she feels just fine the way things are.
> She may be safe and happy in her little life cocoon.
> 
> with your speech, you are 'rocking the boat' and she doesn't want you to rock the boat. Not saying this is the case. Only one more possibility that I haven't seen proposed yet.


I have heard this several times from others. If it's the case, there's 2 options: 1. Things HAVE to change, because I can't keep wishing I had a wife that cared. or 2. I have to move on.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Cletus said:


> As usual, I'm ambivalent about this.
> 
> Expecting a man to keep up the same level of attention to his spouse that he displayed during courting is as unreasonable as expecting a woman to keep the sexual frequency at that same fevered pitch throughout the marriage (assumptions about who has the stronger sex drive duly noted and ignored for purposes of the argument).
> 
> ...


But there's a happy medium somewhere between the guy I was when we dated(constantly trying to win her) and the guy that just got in a rut and stopped trying.


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## CincyBluesFan (Feb 27, 2015)

LuvIsTuff said:


> But there's a happy medium somewhere between the guy I was when we dated(constantly trying to win her) and the guy that just got in a rut and stopped trying.


You recognizing that and, more importantly, making changes to correct it is really awesome.


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## lmtosf (Jul 28, 2014)

I had a somewhat similar talk with my wife. Her response was she liked what she heard, but actions will talk louder than the words. I wanted more response, but I get it. You act one way for 20 years, then say it will be different, the other person will likely be happy to hear that, but doubtful of change. Only time will tell her that you have really changed. And it may be time in terms of a couple years of the new you and not a couple days like you hope. Or at least I hoped!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> But there's a happy medium somewhere between the guy I was when we dated(constantly trying to win her) and the guy that just got in a rut and stopped trying.





Cletus said:


> As usual, I'm ambivalent about this.
> 
> Expecting a man to keep up the same level of attention to his spouse that he displayed during courting is as unreasonable as expecting a woman to keep the sexual frequency at that same fevered pitch throughout the marriage (assumptions about who has the stronger sex drive duly noted and ignored for purposes of the argument).
> 
> ...


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

Your getting a lot of advice from people that seem to think you did something wrong ??
1 Don't rock the boat
2 Be kind and loving, Thought full 
3 Read a book about her needs 
4 Buy her a gift, do dishes, Be her everything
What your dealing with is common Its a LD person that has checked out of the relationship. You can talk for the next tens yrs. and it will be the same. You see young man once your wife has lost her sexual desire for you its gone. She will service you with the min. about of sex just enough to keep you unhappy. But never to the point of you dumping her. You have done nothing wrong yourself, I admirer you for talking and trying to make things better. She does not have the answer for you. Matter in fact She does not understand herself or her reasons for being the way she is. People that are LD can not explain in words why they are that way. It just is.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Just Wondering said:


> Your getting a lot of advice from people that seem to think you did something wrong ??
> 1 Don't rock the boat
> 2 Be kind and loving, Thought full
> 3 Read a book about her needs
> ...


But what if she's "LD" because I don't know how to make her want sex? What if she's got all she needs in her, and I haven't done a good job of pulling it out of her(no pun intended)

You see, I had a talk with her a couple of weeks ago about her sex drive, and I told her "I'm not buying the whole LD thing". "I've seen you turn on and I've seen what happens when you do. I KNOW IT'S IN THERE SOMEWHERE.

Well, low and behold, someone posted this article today. It sounds EXACTLY like what's going on with my wife. She's not LD, unless I continue to do things the same way. I've seen her HD peek out, even in recent months. When it comes out, it's amazing! After reading this article, I'm more convinced than ever that this is curable. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/op...sex-drive.html


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## CincyBluesFan (Feb 27, 2015)

LuvIsTuff said:


> But what if she's "LD" because I don't know how to make her want sex? What if she's got all she needs in her, and I haven't done a good job of pulling it out of her(no pun intended)
> 
> You see, I had a talk with her a couple of weeks ago about her sex drive, and I told her "I'm not buying the whole LD thing". "I've seen you turn on and I've seen what happens when you do. I KNOW IT'S IN THERE SOMEWHERE.
> 
> ...


Keep trying to talk to her to get her to open up more about it. All while doing all the other things you said you were going to do. I think you're on the right track. I would advise you not to get caught up over-analyzing things. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

IMHO nothing wrong at all with 'rocking the boat'. Sometimes the boat needs rocking. I personally don't see anything 'wrong' with what you've done so far. others are giving good advise where to go from here.

like you say, unless you rock the boat nothing will happen and you will be miserable. it's HOW you rock the boat that requires thinking through.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

lmtosf said:


> Only time will tell her that you have really changed. And it may be time in terms of a couple years of the new you and not a couple days like you hope. Or at least I hoped!


And how long would you have dated her to see is she would stop smoking?


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> But what if she's "LD" because I don't know how to make her want sex? What if she's got all she needs in her, and I haven't done a good job of pulling it out of her(no pun intended)
> 
> You see, I had a talk with her a couple of weeks ago about her sex drive, and I told her "I'm not buying the whole LD thing". "I've seen you turn on and I've seen what happens when you do. I KNOW IT'S IN THERE SOMEWHERE.
> 
> ...


Whatever you do..IMO..don't have anymore sex talks with her. That had to sound as whiney as can be. Don't do that. She knows your expectations. 

You have now created the "Put up or Shut Up" moment (which is good). DO what you told her you would do. CONSISTENTLY. Do your part. IF you fail to this...any progress you have made...will be lost. 

DO not ask her for any feedback on how you are doing. Do not attempt to get her approval. She's not your mom. 

It sounds like you are gonna try the "dating" thing. Thats great. Free Tip: Don't ask her what she wants to do....Tell her when to be ready, then take her out. Have a plan.....Have a back-up plan....Have a back up to your backup. Go places you have not been before. Do not "discuss" or "run the plan by her"...That would be seeking approval. Don't do it. If she asks what you are doing...give the broad strokes only...i.e., "Dinner, then some age appropriate entertainment". 

If you normally would take her to the movies, plays, etc. Don't do that. 

Think batting cages, anything with a roller coaster, laser tag, paintball, dancing (but go for ballroom or salsa or something unusual)...pretty much anything that will get the heart rate up. 

A final thought...Your thread title.."........the way I hoped". 

"Hope" implies that you had doubt. "hope" implies expectation. Expectation creates resentment. Why...because beyond hope...I would venture that you had a specific reaction in mind. Stop that. Life is unpredictable. people can and often do surprise you. That's the fun part.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

I honestly didn't have an expectation of her response and I didn't hope for anything in particular. It just caught me off guard that she had nothing to say. She always has something to say, usually when I wish she'd keep quiet.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I honestly didn't have an expectation of her response and I didn't hope for anything in particular. It just caught me off guard that she had nothing to say. She always has something to say, *usually when I wish she'd keep quiet. *




:scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I honestly didn't have an expectation of her response and I didn't hope for anything in particular. It just caught me off guard that she had nothing to say. She always has something to say, usually when I wish she'd keep quiet.


Well that sounds like a good thing. Maybe you caught her off guard....which is even better.

Now its gonna be all about the follow through
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Cletus said:


> As usual, I'm ambivalent about this.
> 
> Expecting a man to keep up the same level of attention to his spouse that he displayed during courting is as unreasonable as expecting a woman to keep the sexual frequency at that same fevered pitch throughout the marriage (assumptions about who has the stronger sex drive duly noted and ignored for purposes of the argument).
> 
> ...


Very good point! 


One of the reasons for marriage is to ease the worried mind, resolve the anxiety and uncertainty of dating which means we can more naturally relax and not have to spend s.o much energy in pursuit.

the basic point is still somewhat valid though. Dont relax too much and take for granted. Still have to spend Energy wooing your wife/husband. Just not as much. Its a. Fine line


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

You were getting good results with your actions. Don't ruin it by getting impatient 

It can take some time to show that the changes can be trusted and to fill back up her love bank. If you start nagging again for sex, she'll just go back to thinking your efforts aren't about her needs but your own. 

Keep up the 15+ hours/week. In the beginning it's recommended you have more than the 15 hours to establish that love again so get in as much as you can.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Is it me, or was that response a bit lacking? I would have thought she'd be tickled pink to hear me say "I want to keep dating you for the rest of my life". "I want to spend more time with you and focus on you". "I want to put you first and be completely selfless, rather than selfish". "I want us to have a passionate marriage that others dream of". Ladies, please give me your feedback. How would you respond to something like this from your husband? Is she really "processing" what I said? Could she have not shown some emotion, good or bad, to the things I was saying? I just feel like I opened up my heart to her in a way that I'm not sure I ever have, and I ended up going to sleep, asking myself, "did I just waste my time and emotions for nothing"?


First of all, I didn't read one reply to this, yet. I wanted to give my input without being swayed or biased, as I have had this exact conversation with my wife, and also got the same general "response".

My first thought about this was that your wife, like mine, does not respond to being sexually wanted. I've told my wife I think about her, love to see her naked, love to touch her, fantasize about her when she's not around, etc. I've also said all the other things to my wife in the same conversation, but I'm convinced she got hung up on the sexual part of it and didn't really "hear" the rest.

See, the thing is, no matter how good our intentions are (ie. we THINK most people would love to hear their partner desires them that way, probably because WE do), it doesn't always work out that way.

My wife, for example, likely felt objectified, even though it was coming from me.

Most women (likely all women) have been sexually objectified in their lifetime in one way or another. Even if it's not directly at them. It's on tv, in movies, in music.

And some women, like my wife, don't need, or want, to be told by their partners that this is how they think of them. They want to be shown. Telling them creates pressure and expectations. It creates the opposite reaction that we think it will.

I find the same goes for the other subects (ie. not sexual). My wife does not respond to talk, she's a woman of action. I am a communicator. We clash. My wife does not need me to tell her I will change, or I screwed up, or I will make a bigger effort in this or that. She needs me to just do it.

It sounds like your wife reacts the same. Whereas guys like you and I expect our partners to be thankful and appreciative that we're communicating with them and promising them this and that, or that it shows them that we intend to make a better effort meeting their needs - our wives only respond to action.

It took me a long time, a lot of advice from here, and a drastic change in my approach, but I finally understand that not all women appreciate verbal communication, despite what we're constantly told.

Besides, when we state that we're going to do this or that, we're setting ourselves up. We're now being monitored, and there's expectations, and if we slip up, we're toast. If we don't announce that we're going to do this or that, and instead just do it, then when we're successful, it's noticed.

Less talk, more rock.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> :scratchhead::scratchhead:


You'd have to know my wife.... She's very outspoken about almost everything.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

I think what you said to your wife was wonderful. You didn't mention sex which can get some spouses upset because it's a subject they don't like talking about. If my husband said that to me I would be happy that he thought so much about me and I would be happy to spend that time at night together. We already do that but if we didn't then we would start. I'm not sure what she is processing over. 

I think it's important that you had this talk so she know how you feel. It can only help your situation.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Sounds to me like you should have an action plan and follow it. It should be based on the kind of man you want to develop into. It's a transition for you not your wife per se. She can reap the benefits of the new and better you but it's her choice. 

Before having any more deep conversation's, think about what you want to do to make your life happier. It has got to depend on just things that you can do not your wife reaction. What do you want and how will you get there? Plan on a multi year project with bench marks along the way. Stay flexible and be prepared to change your plans when warranted. 

Things are rather raw now because you are in the beginning stages. Don't be disappointed when you don't get results in a certain time frame or the results are not what you expected. If you have an actionable plan with a long view, these bumps will not upset you so much. Carefully plan before acting and don't expect too much from others. Expect a lot from yourself as you work towards goals.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You overwhelmed and overburdened her. The conversation was really not helpful. If you are going to start dating her, just start dating her. Instead you just told her you are goign to start dating her in order to get more sex. You really have to stop talking. It's perfectly OK to tell her that you expect your wife to be sexual as part of the basic idea of marriage. A long drawn out monologue is not a good idea.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Catherine602 said:


> Sounds to me like you should have an action plan and follow it. It should be based on the kind of man you want to develop into. It's a transition for you not your wife per se. She can reap the benefits of the new and better you but it's her choice.
> 
> Before having any more deep conversation's, think about what you want to do to make your life happier. It has got to depend on just things that you can do not your wife reaction. What do you want and how will you get there? Plan on a multi year project with bench marks along the way. Stay flexible and be prepared to change your plans when warranted.
> 
> Things are rather raw now because you are in the beginning stages. Don't be disappointed when you don't get results in a certain time frame or the results are not what you expected. If you have an actionable plan with a long view, these bumps will not upset you so much. Carefully plan before acting and don't expect too much from others. Expect a lot from yourself as you work towards goals.


There's a common misconception in this forum that I'm in the "beginning stages", or that I'm just now beginning to make changes. That's not the case at all. This process started about 2-3 years ago. The talk that we had the other night was in large part due to the fact that I've changed dramatically over these past couple of years, but it hasn't had a positive affect on our sex life. In fact, we have sex less now than we did 2 years ago. Sure, she's happier and is enjoying being treated the way I should have always treated her. But I'm still in the same boat I've been in throughout our marriage, wishing my wife was passionately in love with me.

What triggered the conversation in the first place was this.... About 6 months ago I told her I was really struggling with our lack of sex and her lack of desire. _Remember, this conversation was 6 months ago, which means I had already changed 2 years prior. _ I told her, "I need to be wanted". She said "you already have that". I said "I don't need you to want me around. I don't need you to want me to be your husband. I need you to want me in the passionate way that a husband and wife should WANT each other."

So, this past Sunday we were at church, and there was a guest speaker. He opened up and shared that he was unfaithful to his wife over 30 years ago and at the time he was scared to tell her. He began to tell us that "More than anything, I wanted to have a passionate relationship with my wife that lasted the rest of our lives". That was EXACTLY what I had said to my wife 6 months ago. So, I used that as an opportunity to tell her that it wasn't just me. I'm not a pervert. I'm not a sexual deviant. I'm a normal man, and men need their wives to be passionately in love with them.

So, again, this is not a new conversation with my wife. I'm not just now "turning over a new leaf". This has been an ongoing process. At this point, I'm simply going to have to continue changing, continue trying to meet all of her needs, and give it some more time to take effect. Only time will tell, and I don't have forever to wait..........


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

You've been making changes, but are they the RIGHT changes? Are they addressing HER needs? Do you even know what her needs are?

Assuming you don't, have her verbalize them. For example, she may need to feel secure... physically, emotionally, financially. You make have a great job that pays well but if you come home every night and tell her you're afraid you may get laid off, her feeling of being secure takes a hit. (that's just one example). Once she has verbalized her needs, meet them and get her to confirm that you are meeting them. At that point you can address your needs.

If you are sure of what her needs are and you have been meeting them over the past 2-3 years, then point that out with specifics. "Honey, you said you need more non-sexual intimacy. Don't you think the several nights we spend cuddling together meets that need?"

And then point out that unless your needs are met, you will be less likely to want or be able to meet her needs. At that point, you're roommates.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Read neuklas and Bagdon


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## CincyBluesFan (Feb 27, 2015)

You did the right thing admitting your previous shortcomings and vowing to work on them. You asked for feedback from your wife which you should do on a regular basis. If that feedback is negative don't let your pride get in the way. Like if a boss says you're not performing up to par and you want to pop him in the mouth. Especially if you know he's wrong. That's pride screwing with you. Never let it come between you and the wife. Also, I know I'm repeating it, but follow through with what you said. Show her with actions. Don't get wishy washy and break down crying at her feet. Some women like that, most don't. She probably still wants you to be the man, so be the man. Loving, caring, attentive yes, but not a woman. Don't become a girlie man. BTW, now I feel emotionally invested in your story so don't leave us hanging when you get some feedback.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Good luck!

So what are you going to do when it fails......I mean if it fails?

Exactly nothing and now she knows it.

Give it a good try, dating your wife should be fun,cool,exciting! But watch carefully for her also acting like she's dating you back.

Yo7 don't. Want to end up kissing a$$ as she acts like she so special that she doesn't have to put her fair share of effort in.

Put a time frame for n it and if things don't start improving then start pulling back. Act aloof go out BT yourself and start preparing to exit the marriage.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

This may sound selfish but don't give more than you get. Giving and getting nothing in return makes you seem subservient. Your wife will not value your efforts. You made mistakes early in the relationship, you realize that now. 

But, how long will she punish you for past deeds? If she has decided to forgive you and move ahead with your relationship she should show you. It is bad for you and your wife to kiss her azz. You will eventually resent her and fall out of love and end the marriage.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I honestly didn't have an expectation of her response and I didn't hope for anything in particular. It just caught me off guard that she had nothing to say. She always has something to say, usually when I wish she'd keep quiet.


Here's the thing Dawg. The reason she didn't have anything to say is because she didn't want to say anything. When women don't respond to a man's, for all intents and purposes, begging, it means she thinks you're a dweeb whose speech drained the life out of her, and anything she could truthfully say, would be highly unflattering. When a woman is crazy about a man who is crazy about her, he doesn't need to give her a mid-night harangue on how much he desperately need to be wanted. 
In a nutshell, she has lost romantic interest in you my man, which will likely never return in full vigor if at all. And like you suspect, its not that she necessarily has a low sex drive. She just doesn't want to have a lot of sex with you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> Here's the thing Dawg. The reason she didn't have anything to say is because she didn't want to say anything. When women don't respond to a man's, for all intents and purposes, begging, it means she thinks you're a dweeb whose speech drained the life out of her, and anything she could truthfully say, would be highly unflattering. When a woman is crazy about a man who is crazy about her, he doesn't need to give her a mid-night harangue on how much he desperately need to be wanted.
> In a nutshell, she has lost romantic interest in you my man, which will likely never return in full vigor if at all. And like you suspect, its not that she necessarily has a low sex drive. She just doesn't want to have a lot of sex with you.


Good grief. The guy is trying to fix his marriage. There things that have proven to help get a marriage and a sex life like theirs back on track and going stronger than before.

This kind of pessimism is just not helpful. He's seeing results. Whey shoot him down like this?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Well Ele why do you think she hasn't commented to any extent on him pouring his heart out? You know it doesn't matter how much he wants to fix his marriage, how much he needs her, loves her, desires her etc. Her actions toward him depend on how she feels. When a woman has lost that loving feeling, tell me how often it returned when its happened to you.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

OP read neuklas and Bagdon.
Relationship talk is cheap.


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## Marriedwithdogs (Jan 29, 2015)

Always two sides to a story. It's easy to come here and say, "I'm doing EVERYTHING she/he wants me to do, I'm the ONLY one trying, I'm being his/her everything,and he/she is doing NOTHING!( nothing could be something small that's either missed or dismissed)

I don't know... I just find those types of posts hard to believe. Always two sides.....


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Marriedwithdogs said:


> I'm being his/her everything,and he/she is doing NOTHING!( nothing could be something small that's either missed or dismissed)
> 
> I don't know... I just find those types of posts hard to believe. Always two sides.....


When you're the only one "trying", maybe that should tell you to read the writing on the wall.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

unfortunately I also think once their done and indifferent they will let you try your a$$ off getting them back reaping the benefits of someone jumping through hoops and giving as little effort as possible and when you wake up and say I am a door mat this is just too lopsided they will say see I knew you didn't really love me. 

once someone loses Respect, desire, admiration etc it doesn't return most times.

but its a process you have to know you did what you could to save the marriage. and once you satisfied that you can do no more then you will be able to move on.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Well, I guess this is chapter 2 of this post. 

Last night I asked my wife to go for a walk with me. As we're walking, I asked her "have you thought about what I said the other night"? She said she was "still processing it". So I prodded a bit more and said that surely she has some thoughts about at least part of it. Here's what I got: "I don't understand why you want me to be who I was before we were married. I'm not that person any more". 
True, she's a different "person". We both are. She was 19 when we met. I was 23. Now we're 39 and 42. A lot has changed, mostly for the good, in terms of who we are. But I said to her that I don't expect her to be the person she was. I just wish her sexual desire for me was like it was back then. It shouldn't be such a struggle for a husband and wife to be passionate toward each other. It should be a natural outflow of our love for each other. 

She said, "I think I flipped the switch off after a couple of years of marriage". My reply: "Babe, you switched it off before that. You started refusing sex during our honeymoon and you've been doing it ever since". She then said, "you're right, I flipped the switch before we got married". She said that after our talk on Sunday night, a memory came to her that she hadn't thought about in many years. 

Her explanation was that prior to our engagement, I went out with some friends for a birthday party. We went to a strip club. It was the first and last time I ever went to one. She found out the next day, and she said that she has traced this entire situation back to the event, 19 years ago. She was mortified by me going there. But, when we were dating, we both were pretty wild. We drank a lot, smoked a lot of pot, did Ecstacy every weekend, and had sex like rabbits. What the hell kind of person did she think I was back then not to expect me to do stupid things like go to a strip club? We even watched a porno together once while we were dating. She knew what I was about before we ever even dated. I was a wild, very immoral person. What's crazy is that this was before we got engaged. If she knew she "flipped the switch", why did she marry me? Why wait 19 years to drop this on me?

So, long story short, I told her that either we need to go to counseling together, or she needs to go see one on her own. Either way, I told her that this has to be dealt with and that "this is a make or break deal". If she can't get past something that happened 19 years ago, which by the way I apologized for BIG TIME when it happened, I don't know what to do. On the good side, she knows where the root of the problem lies, and we can address it. On the bad side, I don't know what to expect 19 years after the fact. I guess we really are at a point of putting the past behind us and healing, or simply admitting that there's nothing left to fight for. I know I've given my all, as many of you are probably thinking 19 years was a pretty long ass fight for my marriage.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

She is holding resentment for a long time on the strip club incident? I'm inclined to believe this is not the real underlying issue. I went to a club way back when first married. A customer wanted to go. I was in sales. But anyway, I apologized to my W and a boundary was set that day concerning clubs. End of story and never brought up again. I see projecting of blame to you for some other thoughts or feelings your W is having.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Supposedly...... Here's the kicker, and I've hoped to leave it out of all my posts, but it's a big piece of the puzzle. 

She had an affair 3 years in to our marriage. 1 nighter with a co-worker. She kept it from me for 5 years and finally couldn't keep it a secret anymore. I forgave her on the spot. No arguing. No yelling. No fighting. It has never not hurt and it haunts me to this day, but I never held it against her or treated her any differently. So how does someone hold resentment about something that happened before we were married when forgiveness was given to her from an affair?? It makes no sense at all.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Women men are different. Built into the female mind is an instinct to not have sex with random males but to seek a mate who will support. Men desire a sex with many (more) partners to spread their seed.

This a fine tuned system that need not match up exactly. The on guard switch might be too sensitive for many women. For your wife it flicks on easily. But you have had children so her selfish genes have not failed. You have not gone out to have sex with other women and spread your genes, leaving all your resources with the children of your wife and you.

Your wife had a ONS. The biological purpose of that was to get another man's DNA for you to rear in the form of a non-biological child. You are right to note that your wife has been tougher on you. You did not put your d!ck into a stripper. But the proximity bothered her.

Your talks with your wife have been illuminating but destructive. Now the truth is out on the table and you cannot resolve the problem through subtle action. All of you behaviour will now fall under analysis.

Have you read neuklas or Bagdon or GettingIt?

Now you need to change yourself. Be happy giving her the opportunity to join you. If she refuses, you have laid down an ultimatum. Divorce. This may work. Your wife may prefer to enjoy sex over divorce.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> The reason she didn't have anything to say is because she didn't want to say anything. When women don't respond to a man's, for all intents and purposes, begging, it means she thinks you're a dweeb whose speech drained the life out of her, and anything she could truthfully say, would be highly unflattering. *When a woman is crazy about a man who is crazy about her, he doesn't need to give her a mid-night harangue on how much he desperately need to be wanted.*
> 
> In a nutshell, *she has lost romantic interest in you* my man, which will likely never return in full vigor if at all. And like you suspect, its not that she necessarily has a low sex drive. *She just doesn't want to have a lot of sex with you*.


This pretty well covers it. Except for the part about "if a woman doesn't respond to a man's begging". They NEVER respond to a man's begging. Once he's begging, the cows out of the barn. 

It's even more relevant, given your recent update.

She's cheated on you, she lost interest in you after your honeymoon, she's making some ridiculous BS excuse about a trip to a strip club which you are buying right into.

Stop asking, stop begging, stop giving ultimatums. It's just weak and she'll be even more turned off.

Ok, so now you know what not to do.

Here's what you do.

Go live your own life. Get busy with other people, other activities. Find reasons not to be home all the time. Be myseMaybe she'll get curious and come around looking to see what's going on.

Monitor her for signs of another affair, which is highly likely given the situation as it currently stands, and her history.

Consider the possibility that your marriage is over.

You can't force someone into wanting to have sex with you, it just aint gonna happen. It's only going to push them further away.

As far as her going to counseling to fix the problem? It's going to take years if it works at all.


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## CincyBluesFan (Feb 27, 2015)

I've also been to a strip club once. It was the nastiest spectacle. I was disgusted by it. This was even a "high end" place if there can be such a thing. It was just such a creepy sleazy vibe. The dudes in there were the worst part. A more lowlife sleazy crowd you'd be hard-pressed to find.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

She's not holding onto resentment. The incident caused her to not be attracted to you. You have plenty of evidence of this fact (lack of sex, affair etc). Nothing you have done has successfully reattracted her to you. You've done things to specifically maintain this lack of attraction:
1. No questions asked forgiveness of a ONS. How could a woman respect her husband for tolerating that behavior? She can't. All she did was realize you are afraid of losing her.
2. Heart to heart discussions about how you are attracted to her and desperately need her to be attracted to you. Her processing of this is more or less processing your weak wimpy needy actions into further lack of attractiveness.

You need to become the prize that she needs to attain. Plain and simple.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Loveistough
She is treating you terribly. She claims to hold resentment for your visiting a strip club long ago - but had an affair herself??

I think you need her to go to counseling with you, or you need to leave. You love her, but at least right now she doesn't love you.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Supposedly...... Here's the kicker, and *I've hoped to leave it out of all my posts,* but it's a big piece of the puzzle.
> 
> *She had an affair 3 years in to our marriage. 1 nighter with a co-worker.* She kept it from me for 5 years and finally couldn't keep it a secret anymore. I forgave her on the spot. No arguing. No yelling. No fighting. It has never not hurt and it haunts me to this day, but I never held it against her or treated her any differently. So how does someone hold resentment about something that happened before we were married when forgiveness was given to her from an affair?? It makes no sense at all.


That's a pretty big piece of the puzzle to leave out, IMHO. I understand your wanting to keep some details private, but her past behavior may go a long way toward explaining her current behavior.

By my way of thinking, women who are totally "into" their men (as in -- in love, sexually attracted, romantically interested) do NOT cheat on them. There is no need to because they are completely fulfilled. 

The way I feel about my partner, I couldn't FATHOM being with another man. So, the fact that she stepped out for sex with another man -- coupled with the fact that she really doesn't seem "into" you or this marriage -- is a big indicator of her true feelings.

I think you are missing some pretty important handwriting on the wall.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

You can talk, whine, plead, cajole until the cows come home, but if she's not feeling it, she's not feeling it. And possibly hasn't felt it since the third year of your marriage.

In which case, it's probably time to pack it up and move along.

Can it be fixed? Maybe, but only if SHE wants to try to get the spark back.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> I think you are missing some pretty important handwriting on the wall.


Honestly, I've seen the handwriting. I've noticed subtle things over the past year or so. I was just crazy enough to believe that I could get her to fall in love with me again, and I'm not convinced I need to give up on her. I see progress. Not giant steps, but baby steps. If we can keep moving forward and making progress, that's worth something. 

People in here throw the word divorce around like it's cancelling a membership to the gym. It's just not that easy and for me it's a last resort after ALL possible options are exhausted.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> You can talk, whine, plead, cajole until the cows come home, but if she's not feeling it, she's not feeling it. And possibly hasn't felt it since the third year of your marriage.
> 
> In which case, it's probably time to pack it up and move along.
> 
> Can it be fixed? Maybe, but only if SHE wants to try to get the spark back.


Agreed. I have been working very hard at this marriage. It's time she joined the party..


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Agreed. I have been working very hard at this marriage. It's time she joined the party..


She's not on the same schedule as you are.

She probably never will be.

Not sure what other possible options you have to exhaust.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Honestly, I've seen the handwriting. I've noticed subtle things over the past year or so. I was just crazy enough to believe that I could get her to fall in love with me again, and I'm not convinced I need to give up on her. I see progress. Not giant steps, but baby steps. If we can keep moving forward and making progress, that's worth something.
> 
> People in here throw the word divorce around like it's cancelling a membership to the gym. It's just not that easy and for me it's a last resort after ALL possible options are exhausted.


I think you've got the right approach. One thing I'd urge you to do, because honestly it helped with my own marriage and well-being, is to at least mentally put divorce on the table and go through the process of wrapping your mind around the potential reality that your marriage will, in fact, end.

This sounds crazy and counterintuitive, I know, but bear with me.

I operated for too long in my marriage being afraid of my wife's unhappiness, of whether my wife still loved me, and most importantly being afraid of divorce. I went through the process of losing the fear and essentially of grieving the marriage. Ironically, once I lost the various fears I was plagued with, and understood that I could handle whatever came my way, our marriage has actually improved. My wife likes the stronger, more confident me, and I do too.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I was just crazy enough to believe that I could get her to fall in love with me again, and I'm not convinced I need to give up on her...


I wish you the very best with this, but in my personal experience (and I'm not trying to speak for others) it's very difficult to "fall back in love" with someone. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it's a steep uphill climb that doesn't always make it to the summit.



LuvIsTuff said:


> People in here throw the word divorce around like it's cancelling a membership to the gym. It's just not that easy and for me it's a last resort after ALL possible options are exhausted.


I completely understand. It took me 20 years to finally pull the plug on my marriage. My situation was far more dysfunctional than what you describe though, so I can understand you only going there as a last resort.

Hang in there...


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

GTdad said:


> I think you've got the right approach. One thing I'd urge you to do, because honestly it helped with my own marriage and well-being, is to at least mentally put divorce on the table and go through the process of wrapping your mind around the potential reality that your marriage will, in fact, end.
> 
> This sounds crazy and counterintuitive, I know, but bear with me.
> 
> I operated for too long in my marriage being afraid of my wife's unhappiness, of whether my wife still loved me, and most importantly being afraid of divorce. I went through the process of losing the fear and essentially of grieving the marriage. Ironically, once I lost the various fears I was plagued with, and understood that I could handle whatever came my way, our marriage has actually improved. My wife likes the stronger, more confident me, and I do too.


Way ahead of you... I called a friend last week who went through a divorce. I wanted to pick his brain on the good, the bad, and the ugly. I'm mentally preparing for the worst and hoping like hell for the best.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm really sorry you are in such pain, but IMO you're efforts to rekindle things is not very helpful.
Taking a walk together is great. But you couldn't stop talking and, again IMO, made the situation worse, rather than better.

Why not just walk, hold hand, talk about your day. Use that as a way to reconnect?

Instead of reconnecting you've now given her an ultimatum. Sort of a -jump my bones or go to the MD for help- conversation. I don't see this ending well.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> I'm really sorry you are in such pain, but IMO you're efforts to rekindle things is not very helpful.
> Taking a walk together is great. But you couldn't stop talking and, again IMO, made the situation worse, rather than better.
> 
> Why not just walk, hold hand, talk about your day. Use that as a way to reconnect?
> ...


What she said needed to be said years ago. You'd prefer not to hear the truth? At least now I have something to focus on and hopefully fix.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Go to the gym and work on putting on muscle, reducing fat.

Do the things you want to do, seeing your friends. Play sports. Go concerts. Be happy without your stick in the mud wife. Be cheerful. Fake it till you make it. Invite her out on dates from time to time. Make sure you have no expectation of sex as part of covert contract. If she initiates sex bang her like there's not tomorrow.

Have you read neuklas and Bagdon?

Read about the 180.

You issued and ultimatum. Now shut up and work on yourself. Step one, Bagdon. If she doesn't respond, do what neuklas did.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

She just text me and asked if I wanted to meet her for lunch. She rarely does that. This should be interesting.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> What she said needed to be said years ago. You'd prefer not to hear the truth? At least now I have something to focus on and hopefully fix.


I don't disagree if she was honestly holding on to resentment from 19 years ago, then this was something that needed to come out. Maybe she is, or, maybe she felt cornered by your insistence and said this to end the conversation.

My point is you told her before that you wanted to reconnect and date her again and SHOW her how much she means. What you did on the walk didn't accomplish any of this.

Just be sure what your working on is really the part that needs to be fixed.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> She just text me and asked if I wanted to meet her for lunch. She rarely does that. This should be interesting.


Here's how it's going to go down:

"Thanks for meeting with me. I love you but I'm not in love with you. I'd like a separation so I can have time and space to figure myself out".


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

don't leave the house if she wants a separation tell her she can leave and if she dose there is another man in the picture.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Hopefully, we're all too jaded and the lunch goes well.

(I've been told I am frequently naive)


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## CincyBluesFan (Feb 27, 2015)

LuvIsTuff said:


> She just text me and asked if I wanted to meet her for lunch. She rarely does that. This should be interesting.


A word of advice. Go into this lunch open-minded and when you're swallowing your food you might have to swallow some pride with it. That won't make you less of a man. Pride is for fools.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

FlowerChild said:


> So let me get this straight. She had a full blown physical affair with a co-worker, kept it from you for five years. She finally decided to grow a pair of lady balls and be honest, so she told you. You forgave her on the spot.
> BUT, she (the one who actually had a physical affair and lied about it for five years is resenting you for going to a strip club once? And decides to stop having sex?
> It sounds like she's making excuses or trying to pit her issues onto you, making you feel like you ****ed up (which you didn't by the way, at least not as bad as her).
> So I definitely recommend marriage counseling or individual counseling for her. Because if she keeps this up, the marriage will be over, if it isn't already.


wow I missed this.


at this lunch she asked you to tell her you want a divorce.

life is to short to spend it with some one who just $hits on you.

this woman is just unreasonable has no clue what love is and never will.

1) you poured your heart out to her and she was indifferent.
2) she has not been meeting your needs for a relationship regarding sex
3) she cheated .......and you swept it under the table. basically gave her a free pass 
4) Shes is mad at you for something that happened 19yrs ago before you were even married. and that's why she doesn't want to have sex with you very frequently.
5)I would bet she has had other affairs 
6) she doesn't seem very vested in trying to keep your marriage together as a matter of fact shes probably wondering what it would take for you to divorce her.



7) go look in the mirror and ask yourself is this what I want for the rest of my life?

I personally think you will be much happier with out this woman.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Luv-

This strip club thing is total BS.

This is like when you are having an argument with a woman and she brings up something completely unrelated that you did years ago to throw you off.

You think you're having this heartfelt conversation and she is treating it like an argument.

Guess what-- when you are arguing about having sex you're losing by default!

Even before you revealed the affair detail, the best thing you could do for yourself is to shut up, focus on yourself and give her the space to decide if she still has any interest in you.

Now that you've revealed this affair business, multiply this advice x 2!

If you were dating her and she treated you like this, what would you do? You would drop her like a bad habit.

Now I am not saying get divorced (I agree that people throw that around too lightly) but have some respect for yourself. Don't waste your time investing further in her when she gives you nothing! Invest in yourself instead.

The ONLY way you are going to get what you want from her is if she is legitimately attracted to you and gives it willingly. 

When you are a beat down man who is begging his wife for attention and taking seriously these ridiculous arguments from her, you are not attractive.

I'm sorry that this is they way it is.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

personally I think divorce is not put on the table more frequently.

try everything possible to save your marriage.

I'm starting to think the very real divorce filing and then a wife who is truly remorseful should be the one jumping through the I want to stay married to you at any cost hoops but it seem on here we see just the exact opposite.

spouse suspect cheating
spouse catches spouse cheating 
cheating spouse pretends to be sorry
bs can't see it
bs spouse finaly sees it 
pile of time and more money and heart ach.



it seems the only one who make it through this ......and theres not many. are the ones who just said F.....you either you porve to me your sorry with out a doubt or I'm out of here as a matter of fact I still might be out of here .

so in conclusion Its my opinion that you have to be willing to leave them for any type of change to happen. and the only way to get that point across is to file for divorce. if they come around and you really believe that they changed you can stop it.

but I wouldn't recommend stopping it. I would recommend getting divorce and then if you reconcile just live together. with all finances separate.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Thanks for all the replies and input, good and bad. Can't write a novel right now, but lunch was actually an attempt for her to reach out to me and admit her wrongdoing. There's so much that has happened in the 19 years we've been together and obviously I can't get in to all of it on this forum. However, some of you have given me some good input and some things to think about. When I said "'til death do we part", I meant it. And I'm going to do my best to keep that promise. With that said, I am eyeballing a date on the calendar to re-asses things and make a decision then.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening LuvIsTuff
That is actually good news. My suggestion: Wipe the slate clean. Have a happy passionate marriage NOW and don't worry about things in the past. 

If things go bad again, then you can worry.





LuvIsTuff said:


> Thanks for all the replies and input, good and bad. Can't write a novel right now, but lunch was actually an attempt for her to reach out to me and admit her wrongdoing. There's so much that has happened in the 19 years we've been together and obviously I can't get in to all of it on this forum. However, some of you have given me some good input and some things to think about. When I said "'til death do we part", I meant it. And I'm going to do my best to keep that promise. With that said, I am eyeballing a date on the calendar to re-asses things and make a decision then.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

See, Hope springs eternal once more.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Did you have a quickie in the restroom at the restaurant?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Thanks for all the replies and input, good and bad. Can't write a novel right now, but lunch was actually an attempt for her to reach out to me and admit her wrongdoing. There's so much that has happened in the 19 years we've been together and obviously I can't get in to all of it on this forum. However, some of you have given me some good input and some things to think about. When I said "'til death do we part", I meant it. And I'm going to do my best to keep that promise. With that said, I am eyeballing a date on the calendar to re-asses things and make a decision then.


To death do us part!

Only if deserving!

Wishing you the best!
Might want to read no more mister nice guy.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Did you have a quickie in the restroom at the restaurant?


Yup, exactly. Actions > Words. 

In other words, believe it when you see it.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Her explanation was that prior to our engagement, I went out with some friends for a birthday party.


Dawg, your wife has proven her eligibility for the following degree.










Other than that, good luck and keep the "til death do us part" to yourself. I always think of that as meaning the death of a marriage anyway. 
Your lunch with her with her having her hat in her hand came on the heals of your ""this is a make or break deal" speech. Think about it my man. Women general are drawn to men who can live without them and lose interest in those that can't. They hold on tighter to something that can slip through their fingers.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

WorkingOnMe said:


> LongWalk said:
> 
> 
> > Did you have a quickie in the restroom at the restaurant?
> ...


I'm with you here. Cautiously optimistic...


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> LuvIsTuff said:
> 
> 
> > Her explanation was that prior to our engagement, I went out with some friends for a birthday party.
> ...


I can honestly say I've reached a point where there will be no more conversations or explanations of my needs. She has admitted being wrong and we're staying in that ship from here on. I've done my part. She knows I'm willing to leave now. The ball is in her court now. Period


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## CincyBluesFan (Feb 27, 2015)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Thanks for all the replies and input, good and bad. Can't write a novel right now, but lunch was actually an attempt for her to reach out to me and admit her wrongdoing. There's so much that has happened in the 19 years we've been together and obviously I can't get in to all of it on this forum. However, some of you have given me some good input and some things to think about. When I said "'til death do we part", I meant it. And I'm going to do my best to keep that promise. With that said, I am eyeballing a date on the calendar to re-asses things and make a decision then.


Good for you, man! This is good news. I think you two are going to be fine. Sure there will be ups and downs but you have to keep a constant open dialogue like you have done in the last few days. Never let anything fester long term and tell her not to let anything fester. Unresolved issues that are left to fester can grow from small things into fatal cancers if not addressed. You've taken an important step toward lasting the true long haul. Enjoy it.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> When My wife says that it means "I'm tired and I'm going to sleep now, hopefully you will have forgotten this when we wake up".
> 
> On a good day she will pick up one or two things and she will bring them up if she agrees.
> MN


Strong possibility.

I don't recall your other threads at the moment, but is she the type that has expressed needs in the past only to continue to reject you or make new demands after having her old ones met?

This does not mean you should not try. It does mean you need to not blindly believe that more service to her (even if it is what she wants) will cause her to meet your needs. Give it some time and see where it goes. If you don't have lasting change after around six months, reevaluate.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Hicks said:


> She's not holding onto resentment. The incident caused her to not be attracted to you. You have plenty of evidence of this fact (lack of sex, affair etc). Nothing you have done has successfully reattracted her to you. You've done things to specifically maintain this lack of attraction:
> 1. No questions asked forgiveness of a ONS. How could a woman respect her husband for tolerating that behavior? She can't. All she did was realize you are afraid of losing her.
> 2. Heart to heart discussions about how you are attracted to her and desperately need her to be attracted to you. Her processing of this is more or less processing your weak wimpy needy actions into further lack of attractiveness.
> 
> You need to become the prize that she needs to attain. Plain and simple.


Two comments:

1. Was the gist of OPs talk with his wife that he needs her to want him, or that he needs a relationship (meaning not necessarily with her) where his wife wants him?

2. He should act like he is the prize right now (unless he is a straight-out loser). Right now, his needs are as valid as hers they deserve to be met. That does not mean he does not work on himself. It DOES mean that he does not put her in control by allowing her to put off sex pending some higher level of achievement.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Here's what I got: "I don't understand why you want me to be who I was before we were married. I'm not that person any more".


Your response should have been "I am not expecting you to be the same person forever and not evolve. I DO expect that my needs matter enough for you to do what it takes to meet them cheerfully - just as you expect your needs to be met."

Because the alternative is that your needs must fall in line with her sensibilities in order to be met.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Supposedly...... Here's the kicker, and I've hoped to leave it out of all my posts, but it's a big piece of the puzzle.
> 
> She had an affair 3 years in to our marriage. 1 nighter with a co-worker. She kept it from me for 5 years and finally couldn't keep it a secret anymore. I forgave her on the spot. No arguing. No yelling. No fighting. It has never not hurt and it haunts me to this day, but I never held it against her or treated her any differently. So how does someone hold resentment about something that happened before we were married when forgiveness was given to her from an affair?? It makes no sense at all.


FULL STOP. I haven't read past this comment, but... WTF are you doing? WHY are you the one groveling to your wife trying to get her to feel attraction to you after what she did? If anything, she should be groveling to you. You seriously let her get away with the stripper incident given the fact that she cheated on you? 

I'm sorry, but IMHO you two never dealt with the affair. You rug swept it and she paid zero consequences. If she hadn't lost respect for you before hand, she surely did after you gave her a "free pass". You should check to see if she had more affair skeletons in her closet.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

DTO said:


> Strong possibility.
> 
> I don't recall your other threads at the moment, but is she the type that has expressed needs in the past only to continue to reject you or make new demands after having her old ones met?
> 
> This does not mean you should not try. It does mean you need to not blindly believe that more service to her (even if it is what she wants) will cause her to meet your needs. Give it some time and see where it goes. If you don't have lasting change after around six months, reevaluate.


On the first question, yes. I have said to myself many times that "she keeps moving the bar". When I do what she says she wants/needs, she comes up with new things. I have come to the point where I'm done chasing the carrot. And, 6 months is almost exactly the time frame I am looking at. Our 19th anniversary is on July 20th. I'll see where things are at that point. 

We are taking a trip together next weekend to a very romantic getaway spot. I'm curious to see how she treats it. On these types of trips, I'm usually very aggressive in having a highly sexual time together. I'm going to sit back on this one and just see if she will initiate. I'm mentally prepared to go through the whole weekend and not be the initiator. If she can't show a desire with the kind of weekend I have planned, then she'll never show it....


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> On the first question, yes. I have said to myself many times that "she keeps moving the bar". When I do what she says she wants/needs, she comes up with new things. I have come to the point where I'm done chasing the carrot. And, 6 months is almost exactly the time frame I am looking at. Our 19th anniversary is on July 20th. I'll see where things are at that point.
> 
> *We are taking a trip together next weekend to a very romantic getaway spot. * I'm curious to see how she treats it. On these types of trips, I'm usually very aggressive in having a highly sexual time together. I'm going to sit back on this one and just see if she will initiate. *I'm mentally prepared to go through the whole weekend and not be the initiator. If she can't show a desire with the kind of weekend I have planned, then she'll never show it....*


Wouldn't that be a "covert contract" per the NMMNG book? How about initiating like you normally do and would, i.e. act like a normal husband, and if she weakly reciprocates or starts to give you "starfish" sex then stop and tell her no thanks if this is the best you can give me, and then tell her you're going out to find something fun to do. Then don't talk to her if she tries to blow up your phone.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> FULL STOP. I haven't read past this comment, but... WTF are you doing? WHY are you the one groveling to your wife trying to get her to feel attraction to you after what she did? If anything, she should be groveling to you. You seriously let her get away with the stripper incident given the fact that she cheated on you?
> 
> I'm sorry, but IMHO you two never dealt with the affair. You rug swept it and she paid zero consequences. If she hadn't lost respect for you before hand, she surely did after you gave her a "free pass". You should check to see if she had more affair skeletons in her closet.


We did deal with it. Just because I forgave her doesn't mean we didn't get some counseling and work through it. And no, she didn't pay any "consequences". What is forgiveness if you're going to impose consequences? Why would I punish her? She was wrong. She knew she was wrong. She kept it a secret because she was scared I would leave. Quite honestly, if she had told me at the time that it happened, I would have left. It was very early in our marriage. It may have been best in the grand scheme of things that she waited so long to tell me.


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## Marriedwithdogs (Jan 29, 2015)

LuvIsTuff said:


> On the first question, yes. I have said to myself many times that "she keeps moving the bar". When I do what she says she wants/needs, she comes up with new things. I have come to the point where I'm done chasing the carrot. And, 6 months is almost exactly the time frame I am looking at. Our 19th anniversary is on July 20th. I'll see where things are at that point.
> 
> We are taking a trip together next weekend to a very romantic getaway spot. I'm curious to see how she treats it. On these types of trips, I'm usually very aggressive in having a highly sexual time together. I'm going to sit back on this one and just see if she will initiate. I'm mentally prepared to go through the whole weekend and not be the initiator. If she can't show a desire with the kind of weekend I have planned, then she'll never show it....


Sorry I think I asked you this question already, but it may have gotten lost in the numerous thread replies. Have you told her if she doesn't start chasing you,acting passionately in love with you, that you're leaving her? Maybe you are talking in circles and need to get straight to the point. Also you seem to be contradicting yourself by saying death do you part in one line, then the next talking about leaving her. I know you have a lot of encourages pushing you to leave, but be careful who you take advice from. I know when I gripe about my husband, my cheerleaders make me feel justified, but sometimes that just magnifies the problem and makes things worse than they already are. Reading between the lines, it sounds like you are done, and just waiting now!


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Wouldn't that be a "covert contract" per the NMMNG book? How about initiating like you normally do and would, i.e. act like a normal husband, and if she weakly reciprocates or starts to give you "starfish" sex then stop and tell her no thanks if this is the best you can give me, and then tell her you're going out to find something fun to do. Then don't talk to her if she tries to blow up your phone.


I'm not familiar with that book. Everyone keeps bringing it up, but I haven't read it.

That is another way to approach it though.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I'm not familiar with that book. Everyone keeps bringing it up, but I haven't read it.
> 
> 
> 
> That is another way to approach it though.



You of all people really need to read it.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Marriedwithdogs said:


> Sorry I think I asked you this question already, but it may have gotten lost in the numerous thread replies. Have you told her if she doesn't start chasing you,acting passionately in love with you, that you're leaving her? Maybe you are talking in circles and need to get straight to the point. Also you seem to be contradicting yourself by saying death do you part in one line, then the next talking about leaving her. I know you have a lot of encourages pushing you to leave, but be careful who you take advice from. I know when I gripe about my husband, my cheerleaders make me feel justified, but sometimes that just magnifies the problem and makes things worse than they already are. Reading between the lines, it sounds like you are done, and just waiting now!


No, I did not give her an ultimatum. I don't want fake, forced passion. If it's authentic, it will happen. If it's not, it won't. I did tell her that "this is a make or break deal" in terms of her getting over the old strip club wound. That's the first time I've EVER mentioned being willing to move on.

I'm committed 'til death do us part to do everything I can to keep my marriage alive, and right now I'm doing that. But if it comes to a point where I realize that it's not being reciprocated, I won't force it. At that point, the marriage will be dead, and that "death" enough for me. I never really thought about it from that perspective until recently. I always equated death as physically dying. But if my marriage is dead and shows no signs of being resuscitated, then I can't continue to be with someone that's not interested....


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You of all people really need to read it.


I actually looked it up on Amazon a couple of days ago. I had already bought a book called His Needs Her Needs, but I'll get the NMMNG after reading the other book.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I actually looked it up on Amazon a couple of days ago. I had already bought a book called His Needs Her Needs, but I'll get the NMMNG after reading the other book.


Here's a link to a free PDF version of NMMNG. Personally, I would read that one first, before you go on your weekend trip.

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I'm not familiar with that book. Everyone keeps bringing it up, but I haven't read it.
> 
> That is another way to approach it though.


TBH, I never read the book so I'm going by hearsay. But I know in my marriage my wife and I both hold each other in high standards. She was better about it than I was earlier on, and TBH she had to bring me along at times. Bottom line is that I deserve the best my wife can offer, and she deserves the best that I have to offer. Without going down a rabbit hole about "deserving it" vs "wanting to offer it", etc. etc... I believe that if you commit to marriage, you need to give your best and you need to expect that you will get your spouses best. Obviously there are times when things break down, but the commitments should be to give and receive the best you and your partner has to offer.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I actually looked it up on Amazon a couple of days ago. I had already bought a book called His Needs Her Needs, but I'll get the NMMNG after reading the other book.


HNHN is about understanding your spouse. NMMNG is about understanding yourself. It's invaluable imo.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> . And no, she didn't pay any "consequences". What is forgiveness if you're going to impose consequences? Why would I punish her? She was wrong. .


Consequences don't have to be punitive.

Also, it very well could be that she disrespects you because you let her off the hook too easily. that would fuel low desire on her part. This is probable, especially if you buy into MMSLP.

A current consequence of her affair should be her commitment to make your sex life all that and a bag of chips.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> Here's a link to a free PDF version of NMMNG. Personally, I would read that one first, before you go on your weekend trip.
> 
> https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


Thank you! I've already read the first 2 chapters. I'm a very "type A" personality. No one has EVER accused me of being a nice guy. But several things he has mentioned are definitely hitting home.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

naiveonedave said:


> Consequences don't have to be punitive.
> 
> Also, it very well could be that she disrespects you because you let her off the hook too easily. that would fuel low desire on her part. This is probable, especially if you buy into MMSLP.
> 
> A current consequence of her affair should be her commitment to make your sex life all that and a bag of chips.


Too bad I didn't come here 8 years ago. It's a little late now to bring all of that up.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Lila said:


> You had another thread on here where you got some good advice regarding quality time and such that seemed to be having positive results, at least that's what it sounded like to me. Are you still doing those things and are they still resulting in positive feedback from your wife?


Ever since she told me about the strip club BS, which was on Tuesday, we haven't done anything together. It's been a bit quiet around the house, mostly on my part. I've been processing a lot of things in my mind and haven't been very talkative. She's actually been touching me (non sexually) more and being affectionate toward me. It's kind of foreign to me. I'm not pushing her away, but she's on her period, so that's not helping. LOL


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You can have sex now. What's a little blood?


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Is there a place in this forum where the NMMNG is discussed. He mentions joining a "support group". I guess in a way this could be one...????


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Too bad I didn't come here 8 years ago. It's a little late now to bring all of that up.


based on your comments, I think that MMSLP may be a better read than NMMNG. Peruse that one as well. Both help, I found MMSLP more useful for me, and each person will have their own favorite between the two, depending on what your issues are.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

naiveonedave said:


> based on your comments, I think that MMSLP may be a better read than NMMNG. Peruse that one as well. Both help, I found MMSLP more useful for me, and each person will have their own favorite between the two, depending on what your issues are.


What is MMSLP?


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

I definitely do this: 

_Seeking women's approval requires Nice Guys to constantly monitor the possibility of a woman's
availability. The possibility of availability is a term I use to describe the subjective measure of a
woman's sexual availability. Since Nice Guys see sex as the ultimate form of acceptance, and they
believe a woman must be in a good mood before she will have sex, these men are constantly diligent to
not do anything that might upset a woman whom they desire. In addition, if a woman they desire is
angry, depressed, or in a bad mood, they believe they must do something quickly — lie, offer solutions,
sacrifice self, manipulate — to fix it._


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Is there a place in this forum where the NMMNG is discussed. He mentions joining a "support group". I guess in a way this could be one...????


Google "no more mr. nice guy forum" & follow the top link. It will take you directly to a chat board focused exclusively on NMMNG issues. However, many board members here are also adept at discussing Nice Guy implications.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> What is MMSLP?


Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I definitely do this:
> 
> _Seeking women's approval requires Nice Guys to constantly monitor the possibility of a woman's
> availability. The possibility of availability is a term I use to describe the subjective measure of a
> ...


How is it working out for you? What do you plan on doing to change it?


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Yeswecan said:


> How is it working out for you? What do you plan on doing to change it?


I just got the book today! DAMN!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Agreed. I have been working very hard at this marriage. It's time she joined the party..


You left out one of the most important bits of information... her ONS.

If you want to continue to try, you still need to read the books and have her read them.

But it's time to totally destabilize the relationship. She needs to know that either she is 100% in the marriage working on it or you are so gone.

That means MC, finally addressing the stupid thing about the trip to the strip club, addressing her ONS.. she has a LOT to explain and do to help you heal for that, and she needs change. She does not need to be the person she was before you married her (as you said) she needs to grow up and join the marriage.

Or you leave.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> HNHN is about understanding your spouse. NMMNG is about understanding yourself. It's invaluable imo.


HNHN is also about understanding yourself. The needs assessments is as much about a person looking into themself as it is about hearing what their spouse has to say about their needs.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> But it's time to totally destabilize the relationship. She needs to know that either she is 100% in the marriage working on it or you are so gone.
> 
> .


This^^^^

MMSLP can help id how to do this as well....


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

First you have to look inside your soul and decide that you will leave if things do not improve. You have to decide that you love yourself enough and value yourself enough to leave. Even if that means a financial hit. Even if that means a rough patch for the kids to get through. Despite the costs, you will pull the plug and blow everything up if maintaining the status quo means you will never get what you want out of life.

If you aren't willing to pull the plug, then most likely these systems won't work for you. And you can only blame yourself for that. I am not willing to pull the plug. So I stopped blaming my wife for the lack of sex. It is my fault.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> First you have to look inside your soul and decide that you will leave if things do not improve. You have to decide that you love yourself enough and value yourself enough to leave. Even if that means a financial hit. Even if that means a rough patch for the kids to get through. Despite the costs, you will pull the plug and blow everything up if maintaining the status quo means you will never get what you want out of life.
> 
> If you aren't willing to pull the plug, then most likely these systems won't work for you. And you can only blame yourself for that. I am not willing to pull the plug. So I stopped blaming my wife for the lack of sex. It is my fault.


I'm there. It took a long time, but I'm there....



> You left out one of the most important bits of information... her ONS.
> 
> If you want to continue to try, you still need to read the books and have her read them.
> 
> ...


I didn't want to bring her ONS up in this forum. It's been 8 years since she told me and 13 years since it took place. It's way too late to use it, especially since I'm over it. I don't need to open up that wound. However, I made it clear that this whole "I'm still broken from the strip club" idea is a "make or break" issue. I told her very clearly that "this has to be fixed or we have nothing". I can't back up and re-word things, and quite honestly I'm done talking about it. I'm never revisiting this issue again. She knows that I need her to change how she treats me in the area of sexual desire and she admitted that it's on her for holding back all these years. Now we'll see how it goes and if nothing changes, I'll have to pull the plug, and that will be on her.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I'm there. It took a long time, but I'm there....
> 
> 
> 
> *I didn't want to bring her ONS up in this forum. It's been 8 years since she told me and 13 years since it took place. It's way too late to use it, especially since I'm over it.* I don't need to open up that wound. However, I made it clear that this whole "I'm still broken from the strip club" idea is a "make or break" issue. I told her very clearly that "this has to be fixed or we have nothing". I can't back up and re-word things, and quite honestly I'm done talking about it. I'm never revisiting this issue again. She knows that I need her to change how she treats me in the area of sexual desire and she admitted that it's on her for holding back all these years. Now we'll see how it goes and if nothing changes, I'll have to pull the plug, and that will be on her.


This is a stupid mistake and shows your nice guy side. It's too late for you to use something that happened during your marriage but she can use something that happened before it? Really? That's what you're telling us?


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Nucking Futs said:


> This is a stupid mistake and shows your nice guy side. It's too late for you to use something that happened during your marriage but she can use something that happened before it? Really? That's what you're telling us?


In hindsight, it was stupid, or as you would put it, "nucking futs". I'd like to go back 8 years and handle it much differently, but it's ancient history. I told her a long time ago that I forgave her and that I'd never bring it up again. Besides, it doesn't change anything. If she feels like a part of her was broken from the strip club incident and she never dealt with it, then bringing up her ONS won't fix anything. The bottom line is that she admitted that she has let that affect our marriage since it's inception, and she acknowledged that it's on her to make it right. I'll give her a chance to show me that she's serious.

And, BTW, I met with a close friend today who went through a divorce about 2 years ago. We talked about all the good, bad, and ugly of divorce. We actually had a lot of similarities. I'm now willing and ready to allow myself to be happy without her if that's what it takes. She gets a chance to keep me, if she want to....


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Original post... whiny... BUT it opened conversation ... eventually...

Something you need to keep in mind... she was really young when you hit the strip club which she said in her own words that it traumatized her, which at the time she would have not possessed the language for and ONLY as an seasoned adult is she starting to consider that event having a harder impact on her (unresolved trauma) than she realized. 

What is SUPER important now is that you don't go off half c0cked and be rude about her path to process that. Otherwise you are going to totally shoot yourself in the foot.... so let me introduce a concept... compassionate firm boundaries...

One where you DO NOT move off your truth of needing deeper emotional engagement and the expression of that through physical intimacy and that if you do not receive that level from her that allows you to go there you feel that as a threat to your ability to remain with her... But TWO you treat her with compassionate respect with accurate assessment of you and her and not selfish assessment to serve a selfish goal. I'm hearing a fine line you are dancing around here... one being missing the fact that she doesn't understand you desiring her to reenter sin she has left behind. She doesn't want the sin back.... what she needs to understand is that deeper emotional and physical intimacy can be had in mature love the way God designed it. Don't miss that OP..... You are flying right past some of what she is saying and she will not trust you doing that.... and TRUST is imperative to where you are wanting to go UNLESS you are looking for a reason to justify leaving.... slow down and listen.. and do NOT look for her to perform on your weekend.. you are setting her up to fail.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Original post... whiny... BUT it opened conversation ... eventually...
> 
> Something you need to keep in mind... she was really young when you hit the strip club which she said in her own words that it traumatized her, which at the time she would have not possessed the language for and ONLY as an seasoned adult is she starting to consider that event having a harder impact on her (unresolved trauma) than she realized.
> 
> ...


We are Christians and our faith plays a big role in everything we do. One thing I made very clear with her on Tuesday when she asked why I want the "old her" and that she's not that person anymore is that I don't want that person. I want the uninhibited sexual intimacy that we had, which is intended for marriage. The sexual freakiness we enjoyed when we were young is completely inbounds for us now, and I made a point to emphasize that it's that uninhibited sex that I crave, not the person she was when she was so willing to give it to me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LIT,

I believe that I have enough similarities to you - to understand your dynamic pretty well. That said - we are different enough in some key ways that the physical side of my marriage is very good and always has been. 

I want you to very carefully consider the points below - if you want to maximize the odds of being happily married - to your current wife or to any future woman if this marriage busts. 

The combination of being:
- Type A
And
- Needing to 'help your wife feel better whenever she is upset, or angry' to maximize your chances of getting laid 
And
- Your tendency to talk too much when you are in Mr. Fixit mode

That combination is a MASSIVE sexual desire killer. 

The 20 minute 'monologue' you described in your opening post - made me cringe. 

No offense but here's what she heard:
- You don't desire me enough
- Therefore we don't have sex frequently enough
- I'm going to try harder, run faster, leap harder and THAT is going to give you the hots for me
- At which point we are going to start having frequent - hot monkey sex like we did in the way way back

-----------
I have good news and bad news. The good news is - you might be able to reignite the passion in your marriage. 

The bad news is - there is ZERO chance that it will happen by way of you chasing her harder. 

-----------
The two things you did that were GREAT were:
- Getting her to open up about the strip club thing and then telling her that after 19 years she can either forgive you or accept that she never will and the marriage is over.
- NOT engaging in a tit for tat comparing the strip club to her ONS. That showed restraint and maturity.

-----------
If you find this feedback - on point - I'll make some suggestions as to how you might proceed in a way likely to work. 

If not, no harm no foul there are plenty of smart folks here already giving you solid advice.








LuvIsTuff said:


> We are Christians and our faith plays a big role in everything we do. One thing I made very clear with her on Tuesday when she asked why I want the "old her" and that she's not that person anymore is that I don't want that person. I want the uninhibited sexual intimacy that we had, which is intended for marriage. The sexual freakiness we enjoyed when we were young is completely inbounds for us now, and I made a point to emphasize that it's that uninhibited sex that I crave, not the person she was when she was so willing to give it to me.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> We are Christians and our faith plays a big role in everything we do. One thing I made very clear with her on Tuesday when she asked why I want the "old her" and that she's not that person anymore is that I don't want that person. I want the uninhibited sexual intimacy that we had, which is intended for marriage. The sexual freakiness we enjoyed when we were young is completely inbounds for us now, and I made a point to emphasize that it's that uninhibited sex that I crave, not the person she was when she was so willing to give it to me.


Two questions:

1. How did she respond to that ^

2. How long do you feel it should take her to figure out how to separate her old self in a way that she is confident in bringing "sexual freakiness" (did you actually use those words?) forward while at the same time leaving her sin life behind?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Two more questions:

1. How long have you both been Christians?

2. Are you a porn watcher?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I can't believe we're even entertaining the idea that OP's visit to a strip club is the equivalent to her ONS.

The fact that she somehow succeeded in drawing some kind of equivalency here shows me how unbalanced the relationship is in her favor.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> I can't believe we're even entertaining the idea that OP's visit to a strip club is the equivalent to her ONS.
> 
> The fact that she somehow succeeded in drawing some kind of equivalency here shows me how unbalanced the relationship is in her favor.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I can't believe we're even entertaining the idea that OP's visit to a strip club is the equivalent to her ONS.
> 
> *The fact that she somehow succeeded in drawing some kind of equivalency* here shows me how unbalanced the relationship is in her favor.


She's behaving as if it's worse. Apparently being forgiven for her not only seeing another man naked but f'ing him is fine but him seeing another woman naked is unforgiveable and worthy of punishing him the rest of his life. 

Mem, you may be right that at that time it was smart not to bring up the ONS, but this dynamic needs to be explored in MC and either this attitude gets killed or the marriage dies.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Here are a couple of links to think about. I bought & gave my wife this book Official Site for Shannon Ethridge Ministries The Sexually Confident Wife - Official Site for Shannon Ethridge Ministries 

In it, she deals with issues that may help your wife. Another good link is www.theforgivenwife.com

I gave my wife the book, and she didn't touch it for awhile. In the meantime, I did as others suggested and worked on myself, which is hard to do.

It wasn't until I did the following, she started reading the book.

1. lost 40+ pounds, started hitting the gym three times a week, 
2. when I invite her to go out somewhere, and she doesn't want to go, I go by myself.
3. spent a lot of time in prayer, both for our marriage & asking God where he wanted ME to be.
4. had a talk where I stated I can't live in a sexless relationship, big part here is she knew I wasn't just threatening, I had already acquired the paperwork.
5.we went thru the 5 Love Languages, I meet her needs & I expect her to meet mine.

Read 1Corinthin 7 2-5, God created sex to bond a couple together.

I spent years trying to make my wife happy before a good friend b!tchslapped my & informed me that her happiness is HER problem. You can give her the moon, but if she CHOOSES to be unhappy, nothin you can do about it.

You get a lot of different advice here, trick is to figure out what will work for your situation.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> We did deal with it.


Most of your posts signify rug sweeping to me. So, you dealt with something, but it wasn't the affair.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Two questions:
> 
> 1. How did she respond to that ^
> 
> 2. How long do you feel it should take her to figure out how to separate her old self in a way that she is confident in bringing "sexual freakiness" (did you actually use those words?) forward while at the same time leaving her sin life behind?


Based on her response, I think she recognizes that God not only allows, but blesses a passionate, uninhibited sex life for us. I'm not concerned with her seeing it that way. We've talked about it before and she agrees. According to her, she's simply been hindered by the damage that the strip club incident did to her. Only time will tell if that's the actual root of the problem. As for how long it should take for her to tap in to her "sexual freakiness"(and no, I didn't use those words at all), if it's a matter of forgiveness and allowing herself to move forward, I can't see it taking very long. She hadn't even thought about it for many years, so it's not as if she had been revisiting it for years and allowing it to fester.



Blossom Leigh said:


> Two more questions:
> 
> 1. How long have you both been Christians?
> 
> 2. Are you a porn watcher?


I'm a pastor's son. Raised in church my whole life and been a Christian since I was very young. I chose to live a different life during high school and college, but came back to God soon after graduating. I've even been in full time ministry for a season of our marriage and we are very involved in our church. 

No, I'm not a porn watcher. I did fall in to watching internet porn soon after I found out about my wife's ONS, but that was a short season and it's been about over 7 years since I watched it...


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I dont hear her blameshifting, I hear her self awareness rising. Have patience with her. It was feeling like you were not willing to allow her the time it takes to flesh that out before adding another layer to it.

In the mean time make sure her ONS isnt unresolved for you.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> I dont hear her blameshifting, I hear her self awareness rising. Have patience with her. It was feeling like you were not willing to allow her the time it takes to flesh that out before adding another layer to it.
> 
> In the mean time make sure her ONS isnt unresolved for you.


The ONS is water under the bridge. It was over 13 years ago. Granted I didn't find out until 8 or 9 years ago, but it's over and done with. Big scar left, but the wound is healed.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> Here are a couple of links to think about. I bought & gave my wife this book Official Site for Shannon Ethridge Ministries The Sexually Confident Wife - Official Site for Shannon Ethridge Ministries
> 
> In it, she deals with issues that may help your wife. Another good link is www.theforgivenwife.com
> 
> ...


I was reading 1 Cor 7 yesterday. Honestly, that scripture frustrates me because my wife doesn't hold it in high regard. She knows it's there and we've discussed MANY times. She even knows she's in the wrong for saying no if I want to be sexual. But it doesn't change anything. Heck, just this morning we took a shower together and when we got out, I pulled her close and she got pissed. She hates sex after showering. She thinks she has to take another shower afterward. But she was dripping with sweat before we got in because she had just gotten back from run. She definitely would have refused me in that condition. I can't win for losing.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I was reading 1 Cor 7 yesterday. Honestly, that scripture frustrates me because my wife doesn't hold it in high regard. She knows it's there and we've discussed MANY times. She even knows she's in the wrong for saying no if I want to be sexual. But it doesn't change anything. Heck, just this morning we took a shower together and when we got out, I pulled her close and she got pissed. She hates sex after showering. She thinks she has to take another shower afterward. But she was dripping with sweat before we got in because she had just gotten back from run. She definitely would have refused me in that condition. I can't win for losing.


Well, the bible also says that if you have issues with one another, to take it to leaders of the church. Here's a link to think about. 
12-22-2014 « The Mark Gungor Show | All issues concerning life, love and marriage.

It seems she is holding onto your sins while convienently forgetting hers. Please check out www.forgivenwife.com

I found articles that helped me understand where my wife's head was at, AND I sent her some links that seemed tailor written for her. There is even a section for men.

There's alot of differing opinions here, you need to figure out for yourself what's right. Only you can decide if it's time to dig in or move on. I fully understand your feeling of giving it your best shot. Then, no matter how it turns out, you know you gave it your best.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> Well, the bible also says that if you have issues with one another, to take it to leaders of the church. Here's a link to think about.
> 12-22-2014 « The Mark Gungor Show | All issues concerning life, love and marriage.
> 
> It seems she is holding onto your sins while convienently forgetting hers. Please check out The Forgiven Wife - Learning to Dance with Desire


It'd be nice if she got the link to the forgivenwife.com from another woman. Not sure how she'll take it if send it to her.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

NMMNG is hitting home in some areas. Some don't apply at all, but some slap me right in the face.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

My H and I went to the leaders of our church and it has made a huge difference.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> On the first question, yes. I have said to myself many times that "she keeps moving the bar". When I do what she says she wants/needs, she comes up with new things. I have come to the point where I'm done chasing the carrot. And, 6 months is almost exactly the time frame I am looking at. Our 19th anniversary is on July 20th. I'll see where things are at that point.
> 
> We are taking a trip together next weekend to a very romantic getaway spot. I'm curious to see how she treats it. On these types of trips, I'm usually very aggressive in having a highly sexual time together. I'm going to sit back on this one and just see if she will initiate. I'm mentally prepared to go through the whole weekend and not be the initiator. If she can't show a desire with the kind of weekend I have planned, then she'll never show it....


Would you consider this a sh*t test?

When you are highly agressive for sex is she willing?

How often are yall having sex normally?


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> LuvIsTuff said:
> 
> 
> > On the first question, yes. I have said to myself many times that "she keeps moving the bar". When I do what she says she wants/needs, she comes up with new things. I have come to the point where I'm done chasing the carrot. And, 6 months is almost exactly the time frame I am looking at. Our 19th anniversary is on July 20th. I'll see where things are at that point.
> ...


Not sure what you mean by sh*t test. 

Sex is a big part of these types of getaways together. We've only had 3-4 in our entire marriage, but this will be the 2nd one in the past 9 months. 

Normally, we have sex 2-3 times a month, but as I've mentioned before, she usually just wants it to end quickly.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Sh*t test meaning based on her performance I'll decide whether I'm keeping her or not"


I took some time to read your other threads. 

What was the insignificant thing you did that made her jump your bones? 

Also, what were the additions that made her want you three times in one week?


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Heck, just this morning we took a shower together and when we got out, *I pulled her close and she got pissed. She hates sex after showering.* She thinks she has to take another shower afterward. But she was dripping with sweat before we got in because she had just gotten back from run. She definitely would have refused me in that condition. I can't win for losing.


See, this is the thing. I just don't get this behavior. IMHO, women who are really into their men (and vice-versa) *don't get pissed* because their partner wants to be intimate and have sex!!! What's the big deal if she has to hop back in the shower, literally for 2 minutes, just to rinse off? Better yet, you could have both had sex IN the shower!

I can understand it not happening if you were both in a rush to get a shower and get out the door on your way to an appointment or something (time constraints). But to get angry about it? That tells me that she just doesn't want to have sex with YOU. And that's a very lonely place to be.

I know, because my ex-husband was exactly like your wife, never wanted to have sex, and it's extremely dysfunctional and damaging to your marriage. 

I hope you get it all sorted out, LiT.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> See, this is the thing. I just don't get this behavior. IMHO, women who are really into their men (and vice-versa) *don't get pissed* because their partner wants to be intimate and have sex!!! What's the big deal if she has to hop back in the shower, literally for 2 minutes, just to rinse off? Better yet, you could have both had sex IN the shower!
> 
> I can understand it not happening if you were both in a rush to get a shower and get out the door on your way to an appointment or something (time constraints). But to get angry about it? That tells me that she just doesn't want to have sex with YOU. And that's a very lonely place to be.
> 
> ...


She asked me why I didn't just do it in the shower. I just don't like sex in the shower. The last time we tried that, we almost ran out of hot water before I was done. LOL


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> She asked me why I didn't just do it in the shower. I just don't like sex in the shower. The last time we tried that, we almost ran out of hot water before I was done. LOL


Tankless HW heater...


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> *I just don't like sex in the shower.* The last time we tried that, we almost ran out of hot water before I was done. LOL


Ummm... ever heard the expression "Beggars can't be choosers?!" 

All joking aside, with the current state of your sex life (as you've described) I wouldn't be passing up any opportunities to connect with your wife.

She was willing to have sex in the shower (or so she says) -- you could have b*nged out a quickie in there!


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

There is a lot getting missed in this thread. OP, when you have time I would love to hear the answers to those last questions, then I have some thoughts to share I've been holding until I have a clear enough picture.

And I will add one... Did you attend any addiction recovery programs for your drug and alcohol abuse?


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> Ummm... ever heard the expression "Beggars can't be choosers?!"
> 
> All joking aside, with the current state of your sex life (as you've described) I wouldn't be passing up any opportunities to connect with your wife.
> 
> She was willing to have sex in the shower (or so she says) -- you could have b*nged out a quickie in there!


Yeah, I get it.... She asked me why I didn't do it in the shower AFTER we were out. We had the whole day to ourselves and I just thought it would be better to get out and go to the bed.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> And I will add one... Did you attend any addiction recovery programs for your drug and alcohol abuse?


No. My wife gave me an ultimatum before we even got engaged. She said "me or the drugs". I haven't touched them since. Alcohol isn't an issue either. In fact, I had a beer with my meal on Friday for the first time in almost 2 years.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sh*t test meaning based on her performance I'll decide whether I'm keeping her or not"
> 
> 
> I took some time to read your other threads.
> ...


What about these... then I will share my thoughts.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Originally Posted by Blossom Leigh View Post
> Sh*t test meaning based on her performance I'll decide whether I'm keeping her or not"
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if you'd call this a sh*t test, but my willingness to not initiate isn't to decide whether I'm keeping her or not. It would be more to see if there is any progress after she said she:A. knows what the problem has been all these years, and B. owned up to it being on her to fix. With that said, I have reconsidered this approach and on the advice of another forum member, I'm leaning more toward just being myself and initiating, but applying the NMMNG approach and being willing to say "NO" to bad sex. 

I don't recall what I did to make her jump my bones. It was literally so insignificant that I can't remember. I'm racking my brain trying to though, and I'll tell you if it comes back to me.

Lastly, the changes were mostly from taking the advice of another member who pointed out that we don't spend enough quality alone time together. I increased that time considerably during the week we had sex 3 times. I've continued to do the same thing. We went out together a couple of times this weekend and left the kids at home.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Originally Posted by Blossom Leigh View Post
> Sh*t test meaning based on her performance I'll decide whether I'm keeping her or not"
> 
> 
> ...


I remember now.......... She got home from a run and went to the refrigerator to get a frozen pizza out. She was craving this certain pizza... We were all out, and she said "I was really craving that pizza". She then went to take a shower. While she was in the shower, I high tailed it to the grocery store and bought her the pizza. When she came to the kitchen after her shower, the pizza was on the counter and the oven was pre-heated. She liked that.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I remember now....... When she came to the kitchen after her shower, the pizza was on the counter and the oven was pre-heated. She liked that.


Well then... keep buying those d*mn pizzas!!! 

:lol:


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> Well then... keep buying those d*mn pizzas!!!
> 
> :lol:


Interestingly enough, yesterday I was driving home from church and she text me and asked me to stop and get her a drink to have with lunch. While I was getting her a drink, I bought her a dessert too. She didn't say much when I gave it to her, but when we went to take a nap later, I tried for a little lovin' and she obliged. Needless to say, I had a good nap.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Interestingly enough, yesterday I was driving home from church and she text me and asked me to stop and get her a drink to have with lunch. While I was getting her a drink, I bought her a dessert too. She didn't say much when I gave it to her, but when we went to take a nap later, I tried for a little lovin' and she obliged. Needless to say, I had a good nap.


It seems the way to her heart is through her stomach. Gives new meaning to the phrase "stomach full, balls empty".


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I'm not sure if you'd call this a sh*t test, but my willingness to not initiate isn't to decide whether I'm keeping her or not. Good... It would be more to see if there is any progress after she said she:A. knows what the problem has been all these years, and B. owned up to it being on her to fix. With that said, I have reconsidered this approach and on the advice of another forum member, I'm leaning more toward just being myself and initiating, but applying the NMMNG approach and being willing to say "NO" to bad sex. Good...
> 
> I don't recall what I did to make her jump my bones. It was literally so insignificant that I can't remember. I'm racking my brain trying to though, and I'll tell you if it comes back to me.
> 
> Lastly, the changes were mostly from taking the advice of another member who pointed out that we don't spend enough quality alone time together. I increased that time considerably during the week we had sex 3 times. I've continued to do the same thing. We went out together a couple of times this weekend and left the kids at home.


Good...


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I remember now.......... She got home from a run and went to the refrigerator to get a frozen pizza out. She was craving this certain pizza... We were all out, and she said "I was really craving that pizza". She then went to take a shower. While she was in the shower, I high tailed it to the grocery store and bought her the pizza. When she came to the kitchen after her shower, the pizza was on the counter and the oven was pre-heated. She liked that.





LuvIsTuff said:


> Interestingly enough, yesterday I was driving home from church and she text me and asked me to stop and get her a drink to have with lunch. While I was getting her a drink, I bought her a dessert too. She didn't say much when I gave it to her, but when we went to take a nap later, I tried for a little lovin' and she obliged. Needless to say, I had a good nap.


Super interesting... will share thoughts a little later today.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Nucking Futs said:


> It seems the way to her heart is through her stomach. Gives new meaning to the phrase "stomach full, balls empty".


It certainly would appear that way. LOL


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Don't leave me hanging, Blossom.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I think it's really too bad that she responded (or not responded) the way she did. It reality, she should be doing her part in the marriage anyway, but has found a way not to do it. You identified the problem, however, was your fault. Now, if you take the blame, that's fine, it's just that this opens the door for other lapses of sex being blamed on you. You however offered to fix the problem, which in my mind is not your fault, and offered a resolution. That to any logical thinking person should be enough. I think what you said at least is worthy of a response, however full of BS is may or may not be. She may decide that since you volunteered to be at fault, there's other things she can blame you for and withhold sex ever more. This is how my wife thinks, always how to blame me for everything and refuse to be part of any solution. I think that you have to be prepared for that once she finally decides to respond. 

In the future when these comes up, say that it's so important for you to be wanted the way you said...but don't take the blame and don't offer any solution, other than of course she does what is expected of a wife in a marriage. Make her offer a resolution.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Don't leave me hanging, Blossom.



Hey... sorry. I was processing a LOT emotionally yesterday and just didn't have the muster to fill out the rest of my thoughts here... I'm feeling better this morning.


There were just some areas that caught my attention just from what I've been through in the past that MIGHT be playing a part in your situation as well so if it helps great, if not no worries....

I took note of previous drug issues with both of you, without formal recovery work done, lingering alcohol issues with you and now sex craving that "may" or "may not" be addiction driven. The reason this caught my attention is this. I am an Adult Child of an Alcholic and from the recovery work I have done drug, alcohol and sex addictions are prevalent. Sometimes they are comorbid. The underlying common current in all of those addictions is an adrenaline addiction. You and your wife both could have an underlying adrenaline addiction that makes some of this interaction a bit of a mystery.

Her ONS and this reaction she had to you "suddenly" running to the store and surprising her, triggered her sexually. It may be the "sudden surprise" that gets her instead of just a mundane surprise since the "sudden" carries an adrenaline hit with it. The ONS is a major adrenaline hit. I don't know if she does other thrill seeking, but this could be part of the picture here. If it is and it is in both of you the "fix" here may always be a challenge. She doesn't like boring from what I'm hearing, nor shame.

As far as you ... while it is excellent that you curtailed your own addictive behavior, at least the obvious parts, there could still be some lingering addictive behavior surrounding your sex life. I saw areas where you were skirting manipulation. You are a smart guy and I can see you possess the capacity to self assess well, I just see some spots that may take some attention so that you can really judge whether your expectations of your wife are reasonable, your approach is healthy and that if there is a "hole" there in your heart that she can't fill you will know how to fill it with your Faith. The two things I heard her say was she doesn't want to be the "old her" and she also said she can't be who YOU want her to be. If you were to ask her who she thinks you want her to be, what would she say? Is it a reasonable request? You have to make sure what you are asking of her belongs on her.

I read on one of your threads when you hit deep frustration after reading about some of the women around here who are much more forward with their husbands about sex. Something to guard against here is craving too/coveting much of the sex life of others around TAM. Some of those very same people are in relationships where they are fighting *all the time.* You and your wife have a great relationship with a precious baby girl who is watching you as well as an 18 year old who will be more affected by a divorce than you might think. 

If I were in your shoes I would...

1. Keep resentments at bay
2. Self assess well and look into Adult Children of Alcoholics and see if you recognize any addictive behaviors lingering. 
3. Keep up the well intentioned time to nurture the two of you
4. play around with adrenaline 
5. guard against self righteousness... never forget the ground at the foot of that cross is level
6. definitely encourage her to process and resolve past hurts, those ONLY stand in the way and lurk
7. And last but not least....


There are times you just gotta dry this stuff off. If you are ALWAYS doing for her, catering to her, buying her things, on occasion let it dry up. Not out of malice, but almost like a fast. ANYONE would get tired of filet mignon every night. A strategic mini 180 if you will. Otherwise you will spoil her so much that her bar of expectation will rise so high that you will play yourself right out of the game when it hits your own personal limits. 

Treasure her, but don't put up with crap.

These thoughts are not that well written, but I had a lot of them. Hope these make some sense. I've got a lot going on in my own life and I wanted these written better, but here ya go  Hope it helps, if not.. no worries.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Hey... sorry. I was processing a LOT emotionally yesterday and just didn't have the muster to fill out the rest of my thoughts here... I'm feeling better this morning.
> 
> 
> There were just some areas that caught my attention just from what I've been through in the past that MIGHT be playing a part in your situation as well so if it helps great, if not no worries....
> ...



Thanks for the reply. I responded within the text above, in red.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

You are correct. Reasonable accountability (calling on the carpet) is NOT mean. 

Trust me... she has more adrenaline desire than you realize. I too order the same foods a lot and don't purposely seek out thrill seeking, BUT I am VERY aware of my adrenaline addiction when emotionally charged. Don't discount that too much just yet.

I'm glad you are self assessing and addressing the manipulation. It will make YOU feel better at the same time that it takes pressure off of her. And when the pressure is off that can create space for her to breathe and initiate sex. If you have had the pressure ON for 20 years, you might be surprised how fast she would open up.

That sexual need being 12th on the list is TOTAL bullsh*t. You can tell her I said so. She is using that as an excuse. I'm glad she admitted she was off base on those other comments, that's important. She is willing to admit fault, self assess and be honest. Those are good traits. 

I think you are going to find the things you are working on definitely helps ... My gut says she is NOT LD. My gut tells me she needs a "good reason" to. She's got some beliefs wrapped around her sex life that need to be explored.

Is she introverted?


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> You are correct. Reasonable accountability (calling on the carpet) is NOT mean.
> 
> Trust me... she has more adrenaline desire than you realize. I too order the same foods a lot and don't purposely seek out thrill seeking, BUT I am VERY aware of my adrenaline addiction when emotionally charged. Don't discount that too much just yet.
> 
> ...


I agree. She's not LD. I've seen her come out of her shell enough times that I know her sex drive is in there somewhere. But that's the main part of my frustration. She's just not all that driven to have sex with ME. 

She is not introverted. She's in sales and is very good at it.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I agree. She's not LD. I've seen her come out of her shell enough times that I know her sex drive is in there somewhere. But that's the main part of my frustration. She's just not all that driven to have sex with ME.
> 
> She is not introverted. She's in sales and is very good at it.


If you were to write out what you think she would say if she were asked this...

I have low desire for my H because he.... or leave off the he

what would it be?

And in all of your talks have you asked her? If so, what did she say? Besides the comments she has now recanted...

And the above question by the way is not directly laying blame on you... I believe there is some blame here for sure on her. I am just trying to understand where her head is at.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> If you were to write out what you think she would say if she were asked this...
> 
> I have low desire for my H because he.... or leave off the he
> 
> ...


In the past I know exactly what her answer would be because I asked many times. She would say "the only time you touch me is when you want sex. The only time you kiss me is when you want sex. You're only affectionate when you want sex". All of those things were true, but have dramatically changed in the past couple of years. She would tell you herself that I've changed. Honestly, if I asked her that question today, I'm not sure what she would say. I think she's run out of excuses. The 19 year old strip club excuse pretty much tells me that she doesn't have anything else to go to.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

> She is not introverted. She's in sales and is very good at it.


Sales people love to be sold. If you do it well, they buy.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> In the past I know exactly what her answer would be because I asked many times. She would say "the only time you touch me is when you want sex. The only time you kiss me is when you want sex. You're only affectionate when you want sex". All of those things were true, but have dramatically changed in the past couple of years. She would tell you herself that I've changed. Honestly, if I asked her that question today, I'm not sure what she would say. I think she's run out of excuses. The 19 year old strip club excuse pretty much tells me that she doesn't have anything else to go to.


So, if you were say how that made/makes her feel, how would you describe it?

Also... what "has" changed in the past two years? 

I'm hearing you possibly blame shift enough to shut her down.

It is highly probable that you two have a bit of codependency going on that seems to be somewhat self resolving, which is GREAT, but I still hear just enough of unhealthy spots that you haven't thought of that a book like Codependency No More would help you seal the deal. The more you get your emotional weight off of her the more she will feel free to move around and initiate and trust. THAT will help your sex life tremendously.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I had to tell my H to get his emotional weight off of me and stand on his own a bit, he was crushing me. It feels like you are not as severe as my H was, but probably still intense enough to where it really affects her. 

And there are some things on her side weighing on you I betcha... each person will have to learn how to keep their eyes on their own paper to restore the health some... what I mean by that is this...

Yes, Biblically you and your wife are to share great sex

BUT if you are addicted to sex, your addiction does not belong on her shoulders. God never asked her to feed your addiction.

This is where you have to self assess and see if you have a bit of a sexual addiction going on that could be leaving your wife feeling used.

You don't want to downgrade her to a masterbation tool or a "hit" of your addiction. That would naturally shut her down IF that is what is going on here. I can't know that 100%, but I'm hearing hints of it for sure.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Well, our romantic weekend getaway started yesterday. I made reservations at a nice restaurant about half way to our destination, which was downtown Houston. We had a nice dinner and talked as lot. Afterward I saw a horse drawn carriage as we were walking to our car, so I took her on a romantic ride through downtown. She loved it! We got to our beach condo about an hour later. We had some wine and sat together on the couch. She laid on my chest and I held her for about an hour. I had created a playlist of romantic music and we listened to it while I held her. After about an hour, I had an idea... I got up and moved the coffee table out of the living room, turned down the lights and we slow danced for a couple of songs. That's the first time in our entire marriage that we have slow danced together. To put the icing on the cake, I added a song to the playlist that I had sang to her at our wedding 18 1/2 years ago. Her eyes lit up!!! A few minutes later she says "let's go lay down on the bed. Bring the music with you." We laid on the bed and I held her. She was caressing my hands and telling me how much she loved me. I moved my hands toward her waistline, gently put them inside the back of her pajama pants and she stops me. Then she says "can you just hold me"? WTF!!!! Game over. 

If what I did for her last night, and had planned for this weekend didn't light her fire, I don't know what else to do.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Well, our romantic weekend getaway started yesterday. I made reservations at a nice restaurant about half way to our destination, which was downtown Houston. We had a nice dinner and talked as lot. Afterward I saw a horse drawn carriage as we were walking to our car, so I took her on a romantic ride through downtown. She loved it! We got to our beach condo about an hour later. We had some wine and sat together on the couch. She laid on my chest and I held her for about an hour. I had created a playlist of romantic music and we listened to it while I held her. After about an hour, I had an idea... I got up and moved the coffee table out of the living room, turned down the lights and we slow danced for a couple of songs. That's the first time in our entire marriage that we have slow danced together. To put the icing on the cake, I added a song to the playlist that I had sang to her at our wedding 18 1/2 years ago. Her eyes lit up!!! A few minutes later she says "let's go lay down on the bed. Bring the music with you." We laid on the bed and I held her. She was caressing my hands and telling me how much she loved me. I moved my hands toward her waistline, gently put them inside the back of her pajama pants and she stops me. *Then she says "can you just hold me"? WTF!!!! Game over*.
> 
> If what I did for her last night, and had planned for this weekend didn't light her fire, I don't know what else to do.


What did you do after she said this?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Well, our romantic weekend getaway started yesterday. I made reservations at a nice restaurant about half way to our destination, which was downtown Houston. We had a nice dinner and talked as lot. Afterward I saw a horse drawn carriage as we were walking to our car, so I took her on a romantic ride through downtown. She loved it! We got to our beach condo about an hour later. We had some wine and sat together on the couch. She laid on my chest and I held her for about an hour. I had created a playlist of romantic music and we listened to it while I held her. After about an hour, I had an idea... I got up and moved the coffee table out of the living room, turned down the lights and we slow danced for a couple of songs. That's the first time in our entire marriage that we have slow danced together. To put the icing on the cake, I added a song to the playlist that I had sang to her at our wedding 18 1/2 years ago. Her eyes lit up!!! A few minutes later she says "let's go lay down on the bed. Bring the music with you." We laid on the bed and I held her. She was caressing my hands and telling me how much she loved me. I moved my hands toward her waistline, gently put them inside the back of her pajama pants and she stops me. Then she says "can you just hold me"? WTF!!!! Game over.
> 
> If what I did for her last night, and had planned for this weekend didn't light her fire, I don't know what else to do.


So let me get this straight. You cant accept her carressing your hands and professing her love for you as an acceptable way to express her love for you. Yep, you are addicted to sex. Wanna know how I know? I used to be you. If it wasnt sex then that equated to me being totally unloved. Guess what I learned... It isn't the truth. I worked to accept my H's way of expressing his love for me. It hurt him when hand holding and small things like that were not enough. Do you know what that did for me? Taught me a deeper love, patience, less about fear and self and more about seeing with better eyes this man God has put in my life. We still have mindblowing sex, but now it is WAY more conscious and freer because the manipulation is gone. Time to grow my friend.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

You could try changing it up a bit, don't be so predictable. She knew you were going to be looking for sex at the end of this evening and she probably had her walls up already.

You're going to have to let her come to you. If she doesn't, well then after some period of time- months or years- you might have to just go to someone else. After divorcing her of course.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I'm usually very aggressive in having a highly sexual time together. *I'm going to sit back on this one and just see if she will initiate. I'm mentally prepared to go through the whole weekend and not be the initiator.* If she can't show a desire with the kind of weekend I have planned, then she'll never show it....


Just wanted to point this out, LIT What happened?


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I'm usually very aggressive in having a highly sexual time together. I'm going to sit back on this one and just see if she will initiate. I'm mentally prepared to go through the whole weekend and not be the initiator
> 
> 
> LuvIsTuff said:
> ...


Apparently he was not as mentally prepared as he thought he was.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

He he he....

Poor LIT. Brother, TAM is the wrong place for you. LOL! You're too much of a sex addicted perv for these folks. You perv! You lost this fight before it even began. You're not going to change anyone's opinion here. You have been dubbed Sir Pervalot. 

I feel for you brother. You have a choice I guess. Remain a romantic monk who blows his bread on a frigid wife, or move on to normal drive woman who desires lots of healthy sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Your secret key here is accepting the small stuff as good enough expressions of love, laying down the manipulative transactional thinking and watch what happens. She will feel less rejected and will seek you out. When you conditionally accept the small stuff to her its rejection of all of it, including her. That feeling isnt conducive to feeling like having sex.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> He he he....
> 
> Poor LIT. Brother, TAM is the wrong place for you. LOL! You're too much of a sex addicted perv for these folks. You perv! You lost this fight before it even began. You're not going to change anyone's opinion here. You have been dubbed Sir Pervalot.
> 
> ...


Lol... B, no one is calling him a perv.


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> So let me get this straight. You cant accept her carressing your hands and professing her love for you as an acceptable way to express her love for you. Yep, you are addicted to sex. Wanna know how I know? I used to be you. * If it wasnt sex then that equated to me being totally unloved.* Guess what I learned... It isn't the truth. I worked to accept my H's way of expressing his love for me. It hurt him when hand holding and small things like that were not enough. Do you know what that did for me? Taught me a deeper love, patience, less about fear and self and more about seeing with better eyes this man God has put in my life. We still have mindblowing sex, but now it is WAY more conscious and freer because the manipulation is gone. Time to grow my friend.


Hard lesson for me as well. I used to (and sometimes I still slip up) come on to my wife like a bull in rut (her words)...Unwanted pressure...so much so that she would withdraw her affection often. It got so bad that when I asked her why she didn't want to cuddle in bed anymore, she replied with a "Because after awhile all you wanna do is fvck! Sometimes all I want to do is be held!"

*2x4 across the forehead there*

Since I've learned to back off with the sexual aggression, we're actually having sex more often...Funny how that works, but it seems to be very effective. I'm not perfect, and I still catch myself coming on strong to her, but she too is learning to tell me to "cool my jets"...and I'm learning to..."hear her".

Anyway, good luck to you my friend and I wish you two the best.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> LuvIsTuff said:
> 
> 
> > Well, our romantic weekend getaway started yesterday. I made reservations at a nice restaurant about half way to our destination, which was downtown Houston. We had a nice dinner and talked as lot. Afterward I saw a horse drawn carriage as we were walking to our car, so I took her on a romantic ride through downtown. She loved it! We got to our beach condo about an hour later. We had some wine and sat together on the couch. She laid on my chest and I held her for about an hour. I had created a playlist of romantic music and we listened to it while I held her. After about an hour, I had an idea... I got up and moved the coffee table out of the living room, turned down the lights and we slow danced for a couple of songs. That's the first time in our entire marriage that we have slow danced together. To put the icing on the cake, I added a song to the playlist that I had sang to her at our wedding 18 1/2 years ago. Her eyes lit up!!! A few minutes later she says "let's go lay down on the bed. Bring the music with you." We laid on the bed and I held her. She was caressing my hands and telling me how much she loved me. I moved my hands toward her waistline, gently put them inside the back of her pajama pants and she stops me. Then she says "can you just hold me"? WTF!!!! Game over.
> ...


It's funny how women come in here and talk about going out of their way to get their man's attention, and everyone feels sorry for her when it doesn't work. But a man goes over the fvcking moon to be romantic and get his wife to feel loved and be sexual and I'm a sex addict. Fvck that shlt!


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Remember the lady who dressed up in a French maid outfit last week and it didn't get her husband's attention? She must be a sex addict too. B.S.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> It's funny how women come in here and talk about going out of their way to get their man's attention, and everyone feels sorry for her when it doesn't work. But a man goes over the fvcking moon to be romantic and get his wife to feel loved and be sexual and I'm a sex addict. Fvck that shlt!


I agree with you 100% on that one. BL was way out of line there. I have two thoughts on your interaction with your wife last night. First, you said you were prepared to not initiate. Honestly I think you would have been better off sticking to plan. By not initiating, eventually you would have played on her insecurities and she likely would have initiated herself. Maybe not, but it would have been worth the try. (google pua push pull) Second, after she said, can't you just hold me....since you were already going down that path, the correct answer to that question is NO I can't, now get them panties off!

The big question now is, what to do going forward. You're still on this getaway weekend. I really think you need to stop with all the over the top stuff. Just pull back a bit. Enjoy yourself at the beach, have a few drinks. But don't go out of your way to "wow" her. She hasn't really earned that kind of princess treatment.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

T&T said:


> LuvIsTuff said:
> 
> 
> > I'm usually very aggressive in having a highly sexual time together. *I'm going to sit back on this one and just see if she will initiate. I'm mentally prepared to go through the whole weekend and not be the initiator.* If she can't show a desire with the kind of weekend I have planned, then she'll never show it....
> ...


I did exactly that. I didn't have 1 attempt at sexual contact UNTIL she said let's go to bed and started rubbing on my hand. That's her go to move when she wants sex, but doesn't want to overly initiate. Last night was a first for that to mean absolutely nothing. 

To answer the other question on what I did, I held her until she went to sleep and then went outside and sat in our private hot tub until I was tired enough to go to sleep.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

WorkingOnMe said:


> LuvIsTuff said:
> 
> 
> > It's funny how women come in here and talk about going out of their way to get their man's attention, and everyone feels sorry for her when it doesn't work. But a man goes over the fvcking moon to be romantic and get his wife to feel loved and be sexual and I'm a sex addict. Fvck that shlt!
> ...


The "wowing" is over. I can't beat what I did last night. 

This morning she made a light hearted jab at me and asked me if I had blue balls last night. She knew......Hell, I was pressed up against her with a full on totem pole and she didn't offer any assistance.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I did exactly that. I didn't have 1 attempt at sexual contact UNTIL she said let's go to bed and started rubbing on my hand. That's her go to move when she wants sex, but doesn't want to overly initiate. Last night was a first for that to mean absolutely nothing.
> 
> To answer the other question on what I did, I held her until she went to sleep and then went outside and sat in our private hot tub until I was tired enough to go to sleep.


Sorry it didn't work out as planned, but you did the right thing IMO. I'll go read your other threads and get back to you.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> This morning she made a light hearted jab at me and asked me if I had blue balls last night. She knew......Hell, I was pressed up against her with a full on totem pole and she didn't offer any assistance.


:wtf: :scratchhead: What does she have to say for herself?!


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

So sorry if I'm hurting you OP, not the intent at all. I'm not in a gender camp on this. I was the addict in my home. I realized the unhealthy pattern. Wanting sex and lots of it is not wrong. There is just an unhealthy pattern I see that I went through as well. So I worked on having a better pattern in me so that our intimacy was healthy. I had to lay down wrong expectations and accept my H's ways. The result. Liberating sex, WAY less tension about it and frequency went up.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

T&T said:


> LuvIsTuff said:
> 
> 
> > This morning she made a light hearted jab at me and asked me if I had blue balls last night. She knew......Hell, I was pressed up against her with a full on totem pole and she didn't offer any assistance.
> ...


I told her that if she didn't want sex, the least she could have done is help me. She said "you usually don't want a HJ", which is true. But she didn't ask. She also said if I had tried harder to have sex, she would have done it for me but not been in to it. Nice to know that overcoming objections was part of the game. I shoulda worked for a BJ. It's been years since I got one of them.


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## marriedmanhere (Aug 2, 2012)

So you are on a special get away trip.. You romance your wife all night, she invites you to bed, turns you down and then jokes about it the next day?

It all just sounds mean to me.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I told her that if she didn't want sex, the least she could have done is help me. She said "you usually don't want a HJ", which is true. But she didn't ask. She also said if I had tried harder to have sex, she would have done it for me but not been in to it. Nice to know that overcoming objections was part of the game. I shoulda worked for a BJ. It's been years since I got one of them.


Yall need counseling.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Her making a joke about it was not malicious, IMO. She knows she screwed up. She was seeking reassurance that things were still okay.

Luv, how much longer is this getaway?


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

marriedmanhere said:


> So you are on a special get away trip.. You romance your wife all night, she invites you to bed, turns you down and then jokes about it the next day?
> 
> It all just sounds mean to me.


This is my initial thought too. Has she done things like this in the past?


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## marriedmanhere (Aug 2, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Her making a joke about it was not malicious, IMO. She knows she screwed up. She was seeking reassurance that things were still okay.
> 
> Luv, how much longer is this getaway?




If she wanted reassurance then she should have said that she was sorry and she would make it up to him.

maybe she will make this right. We will see.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I told her that if she didn't want sex, the least she could have done is help me. She said "you usually don't want a HJ", which is true. But she didn't ask. *She also said if I had tried harder to have sex, she would have done it for me but not been in to it. *Nice to know that overcoming objections was part of the game. I shoulda worked for a BJ. It's been years since I got one of them.


Ask her how she KNOWS she wouldn't have been into it. How do you know unless you get started and finish??

You CAN"T automatically know you wouldn't enjoy it unless you completely turn her off. I mean *completely* turn her off! 

Ask her that and see what she says. I would demand an answer to this one...

BTW LIT, I've been in your shoes minus the PA. It was my fault and were able to turn it around. Your W seems to be fvcking with you though. It HAS to stop or you two have no chance.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

marriedmanhere said:


> If she wanted reassurance then she should have said that she was sorry and she would make it up to him.
> 
> maybe she will make this right. We will see.


I don't disagree. But some people have difficulty apologizing, mostly due to toxic shame.


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> The "wowing" is over. I can't beat what I did last night.


Not sure if this is your kinda thing, but ya wanna know what I did for my wife that really got her in the mood? I bought a skimpy little leather G-string on amazon.com and performed a real..."naughty" striptease for her...Didn't even get to finish my set before she dragged me off to the bedroom. Just an idea...


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Headed home in a couple of hours. No real fireworks. She went to sleep again last night by 10:00. We did get in an afternoon quickie yesterday, but nothing to write home about. I'll get back on when we get home and be more specific.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm sorry the weekend didnt go as you had hoped. I go back to my original thoughts that I posted on page 5 of this thread. She's just not feeling it and does not desire you anymore . After the romantic weekend you went to a lot of trouble to plan, and especially all the special things you planned on the first night--wine, slow dancing, the carriage ride -- and all you got out of it was a quickie one day and you watching her go to sleep at 10pm, I don't see a lot of hope for this working out the way you want. 

By all means, you can try counseling to see if it will help. But to me, it sounds like she stopped feeling it awhile back. Unreciprocated love is a very lonely place to be. I don't doubt that she "loves" you in many ways; just not the way you want and need the most.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Intimacy = openness + vulnerability 

For example, telling the painful truth about ---- whatever

Just as indifference is the opposite of love. 

Intentional deceit is the opposite of intimacy. 

This is a marriage - where deceit is used to avoid conflict. 

Where an out of control wife has appointed herself - head of the church - in all matters where she wants to make the rules. 

Claiming that Masturbation is a type of adultery/cheating - because she says so. 

This type of thing - where your spouse gets to make up any rules they want as they go through life - there's a phrase for enabling it: unconditional surrender

And 'unconditional surrender' destroys respect and passion. 




happy as a clam said:


> I'm sorry the weekend didnt go as you had hoped. I go back to my original thoughts that I posted on page 5 of this thread. She's just not feeling it and does not desire you anymore . After the romantic weekend you went to a lot of trouble to plan, and especially all the special things you planned on the first night--wine, slow dancing, the carriage ride -- and all you got out of it was a quickie one day and you watching her go to sleep at 10pm, I don't see a lot of hope for this working out the way you want.
> 
> By all means, you can try counseling to see if it will help. But to me, it sounds like she stopped feeling it awhile back. Unreciprocated love is a very lonely place to be. I don't doubt that she "loves" you in many ways; just not the way you want and need the most.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Your secret key here is accepting the small stuff as good enough expressions of love, laying down the manipulative transactional thinking and watch what happens. She will feel less rejected and will seek you out. When you conditionally accept the small stuff to her its rejection of all of it, including her. That feeling isnt conducive to feeling like having sex.


This is poor advice.

First, it elevates her over him. You're telling him to meet her needs plentifully and then wait. He needs to happy with what she gives. That does not work.

The way to fix this is for both of them to explicitly acknowledge that the other's needs are equally important. Then, they live that out by making sure each gives as much as he or she receives. Neither gets to benefit from a long-term imbalance. 

Here's my prediction for your advice. He will serve her and stuff his sex need until she responds. Eventually, she will provide some sex. It will not be of the quality and frequency he needs (at least not for an extended period). After more time passes and his needs are still not being met, he will initiate another discussion leaving them right where they are at now, or he will detach. She, being happy and fulfilled, will be hurt and angry that he is ruining their good thing, which of course means her good thing.

The way that weekend should have gone is...

* He sets the tone for the weekend by planning something very nice and initially focusing on the mood and not going straight for sex.
* She enjoys the event and the attention being bestowed upon her. After the non-sexual intimacy, she should realize "this is really nice and he is doing a great deal for me. It's time for me to do just as much for him. If she has to be reminded that his need differ from his, she should tend to them thoroughly and cheerfully, not complain.

Never - ever - should she feel that her needs matter more or that non-sexual intimacy is more important than or a good substitute for sex. That just solidifies her current mindset and kicks the can down the road.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I'd rather have a retainer agreement with a - working girl.

At least it's very clear what is happening and why. 

Cringing at that the thought of having to jump through hoops to have sex. 

I get mutuality - and agree with it. But this transactional stuff - I couldn't do it. 





DTO said:


> This is poor advice.
> 
> First, it elevates her over him. You're telling him to meet her needs plentifully and then wait. He needs to happy with what she gives. That does not work.
> 
> ...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DTO said:


> This is poor advice.
> 
> First, it elevates her over him. You're telling him to meet her needs plentifully and then wait. He needs to happy with what she gives. That does not work.
> 
> ...


Okay, when I wrote this I did not see that she made a joke about it the next morning. The other posters are correct - the only appropriate response from her was to apologize and meet your need. The joke was mean-spirited and shows ill will.

Your assertion that she was just diffusing the situation smacks of rationalization. If I were in your shoes, I would tell her that any future apologies would be coming from her looking at the outside of the front door.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

DTO said:


> This is poor advice.
> 
> First, it elevates her over him. You're telling him to meet her needs plentifully and then wait. He needs to happy with what she gives. That does not work.
> 
> ...


Nope, not what I'm advocating.

You assumed that my advice absolves her of accountability.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Your wife wants to know something. Do you do nice romantic things only to get sex off her? She tested you on this. You proved to her that yes, you do romance in order to get sex. You have to do things independently. Do nice things becuase that's who you are. Expect a sexual marriage becuase that's who you are.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Hicks said:


> Your wife wants to know something. Do you do nice romantic things only to get sex off her? She tested you on this. You proved to her that yes, you do romance in order to get sex. You have to do things independently. Do nice things becuase that's who you are. Expect a sexual marriage becuase that's who you are.


Exactly!!!!

Thank you!!!


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Hicks said:


> Your wife wants to know something. Do you do nice romantic things only to get sex off her? She tested you on this. You proved to her that yes, you do romance in order to get sex. You have to do things independently. Do nice things becuase that's who you are. Expect a sexual marriage becuase that's who you are.


I do romantic things for her all the time. Probably too much. Scratch that. I definitely do too much. And if it was a test, I passed. I expressed frustration on this forum because I was pissed. But I didn't express any frustration to her. I held her like she asked and she fell asleep in just a few minutes. 

I learned something this weekend. I learned that her lack of sexual desire for me has absolutely nothing to do with my lack of affection, romance, or any other reasons she's given me over the years. The lengths I went to for her this weekend was unprecedented. It was beyond anything I've ever done and I'll never try to top it. Nothing I do lights her fire. 

We did end up having sex 2 times over the 3 days we were there. Each time it was vanilla. She has no interest in foreplay whatsoever. I'd gladly give oral, and I tried to, but she was adamantly against it. No oral, no fingers, no nothing accept PIV. I could have gone all NMMNG on her and refused to accept the table scraps, but I didn't want to completely ruin the weekend.

One other thing I didn't mention, but it bares mentioning... I bought some message oil for the weekend. I told her on Thursday that I had gotten it and offered her a massage on Thursday night because she had a rough day at work. She declined but said "save it for the weekend". Natuarally, I took that as a good sign. On Friday night I offered to give her a message and she said "let's do that tomorrow night". Tomorrow night came, she went to sleep by 10. Not the end of the world, but it was one more thing I tried to do that didn't work and it was a bit frustrating that she kept saying "we'll do that over the weekend" "we'll do that tomorrow", then it never happened. 

It's tough knowing that the woman I love is not sexually driven toward me any more. I don't know when or how it died, but it seems like that's the case. Not sure what to do now.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> I'd rather have a retainer agreement with a - working girl.
> 
> At least it's very clear what is happening and why.
> 
> ...


I don't like transactional stuff either. My point was if she considered him and his needs equal to hers, she never would have let the weekend pass without doing what floats his boat. And that is true whether she was horny or not.

But clearly that did not happen. Not only did the weekend pass, but she manipulated him by inviting him to bed so he could continue to lavish attention on her. And to top it off she made fun of it.

Simply put, this is a woman who is comfortable not having sex with him. She thinks she can withhold with impunity. She manipulates him to get his way and ridicules him after.

I'm with you - after years of effort I would throw in the towel and look elsewhere. But the OP does not appear to be ready to do this. So, there are only two ways forward: either keep doing the same thing or insist on her making an effort. The upside is that with some effort she can learn to like sex with him again.

But, what if beneath the bluster and poor behavior she really is that LD (to where she can happily go years with little sex). In that case she still needs to resort to some sort of transaction-based behavior (even if only in her mind). Except that now it will happen indefinitely.

These situations suck. But the straight truth is sex in marriage is too important to be left to the whim of a LD partner.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Nope, not what I'm advocating.
> 
> You assumed that my advice absolves her of accountability.


That's not what I am saying. Your advice does not absolve her of accountability.

Her attitude absolves her of accountability. Read my previous post. She feels entitled to this lopsided behavior. Not wanting sex does not make her a bad person. Feeling entitled to bask in this attention and not give back most certainly does.

She could easily say "I'm sorry, but there's nothing you can do to get the sex life you need from me. I am simply not interested in that any more. Please take that into account when you plan holidays and vacations."

I would bet my next paycheck that if the OP, a marriage counselor, etc. attempted to hold her accountable, she would tell that person to piss off. The argument probably would be some form of the non-sexual intimacy is the core of the relationship and sex is merely a bonus.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Did you read neuklas's thread?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

DTO,

He's the only one who can break this pattern. 

He's rewarding terrible behavior. Has been for a long time. 

If M2 said: madturbation = cheating

I'd shrug and respond: Going forward I'll give you right of first refusal every time I'm in the mood. Just so we're clear though, if you decline my offer I'm going to head off to the bathroom, close the door and cheat on you with my left hand. 

-------
Here's the beauty of this situation: She can yell and scream and threaten to leave. And you just ignore that behavior entirely. 

I have a simple rule: If you're crazy enough to leave me over something either small or crazy, I accept that result. 

If you don't, you end up getting massively jerked around - and the person responsible is the one you see in the mirror.....





DTO said:


> I don't like transactional stuff either. My point was if she considered him and his needs equal to hers, she never would have let the weekend pass without doing what floats his boat. And that is true whether she was horny or not.
> 
> But clearly that did not happen. Not only did the weekend pass, but she manipulated him by inviting him to bed so he could continue to lavish attention on her. And to top it off she made fun of it.
> 
> ...


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

DTO said:


> That's not what I am saying. Your advice does not absolve her of accountability.
> 
> Her attitude absolves her of accountability. Read my previous post. She feels entitled to this lopsided behavior. Not wanting sex does not make her a bad person. Feeling entitled to bask in this attention and not give back most certainly does.
> 
> ...


I am a firm believer in accountability on all levels, which is why I am focused on his transactional thinking. If she knows his attention is transactional the whole weekend could be a turn off. 

Op, are you going to pursue counseling with your wife? You are already a ship in the Bering Sea with layers of ice called resentment building on your deck. When it gets thick enough, it capsizes and sinks. Unresolved hurts are death nails in a relationship coffin. Get to the bottom of these issues with her and fast. Be straight up honest and quit pu$$y footin' around, if you are not going to consider what transactional thinking is doing to this relationship. "Wife, I am miserable with our sex life, and have been for sometime. I have set a MC session for xyz so we can get to the bottom of this dysfunction, otherwise I'm gone"

And yes, you need to stop performing for your wife to get sex. What gave you the idea that is what you needed to do?

Where is your heart on this, looking for reasons to stay, committed to figuring this thing out, or looking to justify leaving?


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Be straight up honest and quit pu$$y footin' around, if you are not going to consider what transactional thinking is doing to this relationship. "Wife, I am miserable with our sex life, and have been for sometime. *I have set a MC session for xyz so we can get to the bottom of this dysfunction, otherwise I'm gone"*


I agree. But set a reasonable length of time for your marriage counseling in order to see significant improvement (i.e. she is really trying and you are seeing positive changes), otherwise you will be spinning your wheels with the time and expense of weekly marriage counseling, only to find yourself in the exact same boat you're in now (low to no sex, vanilla, no real desire for you on her part). She may very well "hide" behind the counseling, using it to drag things along indefinitely without putting forth any real effort.

I hate to be negative, but I honestly don't think counseling is going to fix this. Just speaking from my own experience, there is NOTHING I could have done to resurrect a "spark" for my ex. By the end of my marriage, *the thought of having sex with my ex made my flesh crawl.* It's hard to imagine suddenly wanting to jump his bones again. No amount of wining and dining, slow-dancing, flowers, romantic gestures could have changed that for me.

I think your wife may be at that same point.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

DTO said:


> I don't like transactional stuff either. My point was if she considered him and his needs equal to hers, she never would have let the weekend pass without doing what floats his boat. And that is true whether she was horny or not.
> 
> But clearly that did not happen. Not only did the weekend pass, but she manipulated him by inviting him to bed so he could continue to lavish attention on her. And to top it off she made fun of it.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure where all the transactional talk came from. I don't do things for her just to get sex. I do things for her all the time without any expectation or attempt at getting anything in return. The problem is that our relationship is insanely lopsided. There's nothing I wouldn't do to make her happy, loved, or secure. But there's no giving in her. It's just take, take, take. This past weekend was not transactional. But is it wrong for me to be turned on after the kind of night we had on Friday? It was over the moon romantic. She'd agree. I didn't do any of it so that she'd jump my bones. But by the end of the night I was super horny. I don't see how that's a negative. My wife turns me on. Period!


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

A wise poster on here once said that you can't allow your partner to become comfortable with your discomfort.

It may be time to consider destabilizing your relationship just a bit.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> I am a firm believer in accountability on all levels, which is why I am focused on his transactional thinking. If she knows his attention is transactional the whole weekend could be a turn off.
> 
> Op, are you going to pursue counseling with your wife? You are already a ship in the Bering Sea with layers of ice called resentment building on your deck. When it gets thick enough, it capsizes and sinks. Unresolved hurts are death nails in a relationship coffin. Get to the bottom of these issues with her and fast. Be straight up honest and quit pu$$y footin' around, if you are not going to consider what transactional thinking is doing to this relationship. "Wife, I am miserable with our sex life, and have been for sometime. I have set a MC session for xyz so we can get to the bottom of this dysfunction, otherwise I'm gone"
> 
> ...


I would gladly go to counseling if I knew someone I could trust. 

What gave me the idea that I had to perform for sex? She did. For years I've been trying to get to the bottom of why she doesn't want sex. She's not naturally attracted to me sexually. If you read the first post I put on TAM, you'll see what brought me here. "My Wife Seems To Have Lost Interest In Me Sexually".

She tells me "If you just did this, I think it would help". "If you did that it would help". But nothing helps. She's always willing to have sex if I want it, but I want more than a hooker. Hell, I spent $1000 over the weekend. That would pay for serious call girl date.

You asked where my heart is. Not sure how you can't see that.... I'm trying everything I can think of to make my marriage not only work, but grow. So, yes, I'm committed to figuring it out, but every man has his limitations.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I would gladly go to counseling if I knew someone I could trust.
> 
> What gave me the idea that I had to perform for sex? She did. For years I've been trying to get to the bottom of why she doesn't want sex. She's not naturally attracted to me sexually. If you read the first post I put on TAM, you'll see what brought me here. "My Wife Seems To Have Lost Interest In Me Sexually".
> 
> ...


So recognize and embrace your limits. Stop doing all the things to make her happy. Use that energy on making yourself happy.

And what Mem said about taking care of your own needs is golden.

But none of this matters until you come to grips with the answer to one important question:

Are you truly, honestly, no bullsh!t willing to walk away from your marriage of it does not change for the better?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Far,

I honestly don't think LIT needs to be willing to walk.

He needs to be willing to do what's right and keep doing it, EVEN IF HIS W THREATENS TO LEAVE HIM. 

Sadly the OP is not getting it. 

As he discovered - throwing $1,000 plus his best and most sincere efforts - didn't turn his wife on at all. 

What he isn't interested in is talk of true sparks - the kind that come from honest conflict. 

In his own way - he's been so afraid of his wife for so long - that he doesn't even realize how much of his behavior is driven by fear. 





farsidejunky said:


> So recognize and embrace your limits. Stop doing all the things to make her happy. Use that energy on making yourself happy.
> 
> And what Mem said about taking care of your own needs is golden.
> 
> ...


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Are you truly, honestly, no bullsh!t willing to walk away from your marriage of it does not change for the better?


Yes


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Look up Mem's "thermostat" thread. Read it closely. Then reread the post he made about 5 minutes ago. He rarely misses. Why is he saying that your behavior is based in fear?


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Far,
> 
> What he isn't interested in is talk of true sparks - the kind that come from honest conflict.
> 
> In his own way - he's been so afraid of his wife for so long - that he doesn't even realize how much of his behavior is driven by fear.


You have no idea what I'm "interested" in or willing to do. Please explain what you mean by "talk of true sparks".


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> You have no idea what I'm "interested" in or willing to do. Please explain what you mean by "talk of true sparks".


And normally defensiveness is our minds way of dealing with it when things hit too close to home.

Considering I was where you are this time last year, and Mem (among others) helped me tremendously through that, I would suggest listening.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> And normally defensiveness is our minds way of dealing with it when things hit too close to home.
> 
> Considering I was where you are this time last year, and Mem (among others) helped me tremendously through that, I would suggest listening.


It didn't hit close to home. In fact it hit far from home, which is why it made no sense to me.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I would gladly go to counseling if I knew someone I could trust.
> 
> What gave me the idea that I had to perform for sex? She did. For years I've been trying to get to the bottom of why she doesn't want sex. She's not naturally attracted to me sexually. If you read the first post I put on TAM, you'll see what brought me here. "My Wife Seems To Have Lost Interest In Me Sexually".
> 
> ...


You have staked the claim on several occasions about how much you love your wife.

Have you ever stopped to wonder, why?

Why do you love and want THIS woman?

Because that's the question I have. I think you should place a much higher value on your love.
If you could do that, you just might discover she isn't worthy of it.

Which would actually put you closer to even footing. After all, do you think you are getting the best she has to give?

She framed the operational dynamic of your marriage, years ago, and you continue to march to her tune despite thinking you are trying to change it and make it better.

As Farside noted, your wife seems just fine with watching you jump and twist.

And your continued efforts and consistent behavior of love, support, and forgiveness tells her you are fine with it too.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Deejo said:


> You have staked the claim on several occasions about how much you love your wife.
> 
> Have you ever stopped to wonder, why?
> 
> ...


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> This past weekend was not transactional. But is it wrong for me to be turned on after the kind of night we had on Friday? * It was over the moon romantic.* *She'd agree.*


Sorry, but I don't think "she'd agree." Otherwise the evening would have culminated in passionate lovemaking. And the next morning. And the next afternoon or evening.

Was it romantic, by _definition?_ Sure, if you made a list of romantic activities, everything you did would make it onto the list.

But the evening YOU had is far different from the evening SHE had. You are in love with her and romantically interested in her. I do not believe she feels the same way.

You are her safety net.  She is content to just keep stringing you along because you _allow_ it. You even _foster_ it by jumping through so many hoops. Until you are willing to shake things up a bit, rattle her with some stark choices, you will continue to be in this unhappy situation.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> Sorry, but I don't think "she'd agree." Otherwise the evening would have culminated in passionate lovemaking. And the next morning. And the next afternoon or evening.
> 
> Was it romantic, by _definition?_ Sure, if you made a list of romantic activities, everything you did would make it onto the list.
> 
> ...


If she wouldn't agree, then she was dishonest with me because she told me how great it was. I hear you though. It seems there would be a response if it really was that great for her.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> If she wouldn't agree, *then she was dishonest with me *because she told me how great it was. I hear you though. It seems there would be a response if it really was that great for her.


That's the whole point. She has been being dishonest with you for a long time .


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Think of it this way LiT... picture a woman you know who you have absolutely ZERO romantic interest in and ZERO attraction for -- a frumpy friend, a loud-mouthed co-worker, an elderly neighbor. Someone who you cannot ever fathom feeling any kind of desire for, EVER.

Now, insert that person into your "romantic evening" scenario of slow dancing, wine, carriage ride, moonlight stroll, whatever. Are you suddenly going to change your mind and want to have sex with them?

*I don't think so!!*

Point made.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> That's the whole point. She has been being dishonest with you for a long time .


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

So, I guess the big question is this: What now? Do I leave? Do I tell her I'm willing to leave if things don't change? Honestly, I don't see how giving her an ultimatum is going to make her change anything about how she feels about me. Will she do things to keep me around? Maybe. But they won't be genuinely out of her love for me. They'd be contrived and that's the opposite of what I want.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> So, I guess the big question is this: *What now?* Do I leave? Do I tell her I'm willing to leave if things don't change? Honestly, I don't see how giving her an ultimatum is going to make her change anything about how she feels about me. Will she do things to keep me around? Maybe. But they won't be genuinely out of her love for me. They'd be contrived and that's the opposite of what I want.


Well, I think lenzi summed it up very nicely on page 5 of this thread:



lenzi said:


> It's even more relevant, given your recent update.
> 
> She's cheated on you, she lost interest in you after your honeymoon, she's making some ridiculous BS excuse about a trip to a strip club which you are buying right into.
> 
> ...


Personally, I would spend some time reading other threads in the SIM forum (including mine). See how it worked out for others who were in your situation. Of course, every situation is different, but knowledge is power when making a difficult decision of any kind.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I don't think you are ready to leave, are you?

No need for an ultimatum.

It has been said in this thread, time and time again ... and you have obviously been doing it, but it is time to change the focus.

Leave. But remain in place.

Focus on pleasing you, and rediscovering the man you were and want to be again, rather than trying her to get to be who you want her to be, or believe she was.

I'm a big advocate for shifting a marriage dynamic, the other word that makes people cringe is 'destabilize'.

It doesn't mean become a jerk or treat your wife poorly.

It does absolutely mean, take all of that energy that you are putting into to trying to make your wife happy and desire you, and put it into yourself.

Do plan another weekend away ... for you, maybe with some friends or solo.

Engage in activities outside of your marital dynamic.


Let me sum up.

The goal of destabilizing is not to piss off your wife or get pay back. The goal is to change the current functional dynamic. Because your relationship CANNOT change for as long as it continues to remain this way.

The goal is to discover if you have a partner that wants to repair your bond, a roommate that just wants to conveniently continue to coast, or an adversary who is focused on undermining you and the marriage.

Here is the cool thing. 

Regardless of the outcome, if you do the work?

You win.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I don't think you are ready to leave, are you?
> 
> No need for an ultimatum.
> 
> ...


Yes!!!
:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> So, I guess the big question is this: What now? Do I leave? Do I tell her I'm willing to leave if things don't change? Honestly, I don't see how giving her an ultimatum is going to make her change anything about how she feels about me. Will she do things to keep me around? Maybe. But they won't be genuinely out of her love for me. They'd be contrived and that's the opposite of what I want.


You could try this book:

Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love: Sue Johnson: 9780316113007: Amazon.com: Books

"_Heralded by the New York Times and Time magazine as the couple therapy with the highest rate of success, Emotionally Focused Therapy works because it views the love relationship as an attachment bond. This idea, once controversial, is now supported by science, and has become widely popular among therapists around the world. 

In Hold me Tight, Dr. Sue Johnson presents Emotionally Focused Therapy to the general public for the first time. Johnson teaches that the way to save and enrich a relationship is to reestablish safe emotional connection and preserve the attachment bond. With this in mind, she focuses on key moments in a relationship-from Recognizing the Demon Dialogue to Revisiting a Rocky Moment-and uses them as touchpoints for seven healing conversations. Through case studies from her practice, illuminating advice, and practical exercises, couples will learn how to nurture their relationships and ensure a lifetime of love."_


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## RespectWalk (Mar 16, 2015)

It took me a while to read the entire thread. My question is when did you cede leadership of this relationship to her and why haven't you taken it back? If you didn't know, or didn't want to admit it, she is the leader. She's the alpha and you're the beta. The steps you took only made you even more the beta. Now she can wield the promise of sex over you to get her way. Newsflash for you brother, there isn't any pu$$y on the planet worth playing that game. If you're a smart guy, hard-working, decent shape, and you have a decent job then there are literally hundreds of single women in your area (wherever that is) right this minute that will love you like a woman should. Man up, be the alpha male. She might respond by taking her place as the beta and being more receptive to your needs.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

No ultimatums. First, set a realistic date. Mine was 8 months out. Keep the date to yourself. Make sure you have clear standards for what you expect from your marriage. 

Next, sit her down and talk to her. Tell her you will no longer carry on with your relationship as if everything is a-ok. Tell her you went into marriage to have a lover for life, not a roommate.

Then, start scaling back the romantic things you do for her. No flowers, date nights, trips away, or anything remotely romantic. If she initiates sex or romance, go for it, but do not initiate any physical touch, hugs, etc. Smile. Continue to be happy in your hobbies. Find things to do away from the home. Give her a chance to miss you.

When she complains, that is your opportunity to discuss the importance of meeting needs. Tell her that if she wants more from you, she can start by doing more for you. 

Mem will have more I am sure. But the idea is that you make her sufficiently uncomfortable enough that she hopefully wants to try harder. If she doesn't, your relationship was doomed anyway.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> No umtimatums. First, set a realistic date. Mine was 8 months out. Keep the date to yourself. Make sure you have clear standards for what you expect from your marriage.


:iagree: I agree. Set a timeline for YOURSELF, not her.



farsidejunky said:


> Next, *sit her down and talk to her.* Tell her you will no longer carry on with your relationship as if everything is a-ok. Tell her you went into marriage to have a lover for life, not a roommate.
> 
> When she complains, *that is your opportunity to discuss the importance of meeting needs.* Tell her that if she wants more from you, she can start by doing more for you.


I have to respectfully disagree with this part. The time for talking, expressing what you NEED is long over. That was his very first post -- the LONG letter he wrote, basically telling her everything he needed, which she blew off.

Stop talking. Start doing. 



farsidejunky said:


> Then, start scaling back the romantic things you do for her. No flowers, date nights, trips away, or anything remotely romantic. If she initiates sex or romance, go for it, but do not initiate any physical touch, hugs, etc. Smile. Continue to be happy in your hobbies. Find things to do away from the home. Give her a chance to miss you.


:iagree:


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

RespectWalk said:


> It took me a while to read the entire thread. My question is when did you cede leadership of this relationship to her and why haven't you taken it back? If you didn't know, or didn't want to admit it, she is the leader. She's the alpha and you're the beta. The steps you took only made you even more the beta. Now she can wield the promise of sex over you to get her way. Newsflash for you brother, there is any pu$$y on the planet worth playing that game. If you're a smart guy, hard-working, decent shape, and you have a decent job then there are literally hundreds of single women in your area (wherever that is) right this minute that will love you like a woman should. Man up, be the alpha male. She might respond by taking her place as the beta and being more receptive to your needs.


That's so weird to hear you say. I'm an alpha dog in everything I do outside of this home, but I can see your point about being the beta at home. Yuck! Even saying that makes me want to vomit! It wasn't like that in the beginning and it happened so slowly that I never saw it!!!!!!


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> :iagree: I agree. Set a timeline for YOURSELF, not her.
> 
> I have to respectfully disagree with this part. The time for talking, expressing what you NEED is long over. That was his very first post -- the LONG letter he wrote, basically telling her everything he needed, which she blew off.
> 
> ...


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> No ultimatums. First, set a realistic date. Mine was 8 months out. Keep the date to yourself. Make sure you have clear standards for what you expect from your marriage.
> 
> Jan 1 seems like a reasonable length of time. What I EXPECT is for her to begin to pursue me and show desire for me. That doesn't seem like too much to ask from your fycking wife.


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## RespectWalk (Mar 16, 2015)

LuvIsTuff said:


> That's so weird to hear you say. I'm an alpha dog in everything I do outside of this home, but I can see your point about being the beta at home. Yuck! Even saying that makes me want to vomit! It wasn't like that in the beginning and it happened so slowly that I never saw it!!!!!!


I know my man. I never saw it myself. I too got brow-beaten by our beta-dominated society into acting like a beta myself. So much so I ended up getting cheated on. That snapped me out of it. I'll never be a chicken sh*t liberal beta male ever again. That has made a world of difference. I respect that you love her but you have to let her know that you're the leader of your house (there really can be only 1 leader regardless of what other beta males and alpha women will tell you), you're the man in the relationship, and you have expectations for your mate. You'll hold up your end of the relationship, which you are demonstrating you will, but they have to hold up their end.

Beta males make me nauseous. When I was one I felt like sh*t. Today I feel awesome. Being a beta male is a path to a sad life. I'm sure plenty of people here have pointed you to the Married Man's Sex Life Primer. It is a good book. Don't look for any current stuff by that offer, he is becoming more beta himself to sell to a wider audience. That first book was great. I live it now and it's awesome. My ex has made several attempts to crawl back to me and I've laughed off every one of them. I'll never be a doormat again. You shouldn't either. You have choices. When you approach your attempt at saving your current marriage with the perspective that you have choices and you're going to be fine either way, you'll surprise yourself at how much better you feel about yourself.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Correct. But lose the anger while distancing yourself. Work out. Do things to get it out. That resentment will kill destabilizing before it ever starts.

Take it from someone who still periodically struggles with the same thing.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> That's so weird to hear you say. I'm an alpha dog in everything I do outside of this home, but I can see your point about being the beta at home. Yuck! Even saying that makes me want to vomit! It wasn't like that in the beginning and it happened so slowly that I never saw it!!!!!!


If your goal for your relationship is to be the Top Dog, knock yourself out. I'm just not sure that any spouse wants to be with a person who's nauseated at the prospect of not being able to make his wife metaphorically cower at his supreme position in the marriage. 

IF being alpha male is what makes your wife swoon for you sexually, then I guess that's what you should do. But it is not and should not be a goal unto itself for any man or woman in a marriage.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

RespectWalk said:


> I know my man. I never saw it myself. I too got brow-beaten by our beta-dominated society into acting like a beta myself. So much so I ended up getting cheated on. That snapped me out of it. I'll never be a chicken sh*t liberal beta male ever again. That has made a world of difference. I respect that you love her but you have to let her know that you're the leader of your house (there really can be only 1 leader regardless of what other beta males and alpha women will tell you), you're the man in the relationship, and you have expectations for your mate. You'll hold up your end of the relationship, which you are demonstrating you will, but they have to hold up their end.
> 
> Beta males make me nauseous. When I was one I felt like sh*t. Today I feel awesome. Being a beta male is a path to a sad life. I'm sure plenty of people here have pointed you to the Married Man's Sex Life Primer. It is a good book. Don't look for any current stuff by that offer, he is becoming more beta himself to sell to a wider audience. That first book was great. I live it now and it's awesome. My ex has made several attempts to crawl back to me and I've laughed off every one of them. I'll never be a doormat again. You shouldn't either. You have choices. When you approach your attempt at saving your current marriage with the perspective that you have choices and you're going to be fine either way, you'll surprise yourself at how much better you feel about yourself.


I'm not sure that I'm a beta male in all aspects of our home. In fact, I'm very much the leader in most everything. But, there are times that she takes a stand on something that she's wrong about and when she does, instead of fighting, I give in. It happened yesterday. I knew it when it happened and I let it go.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Cletus said:


> If your goal for your relationship is to be the Top Dog, knock yourself out. I'm just not sure that any spouse wants to be with a person who's nauseated at the prospect of not being able to make his wife metaphorically cower at his supreme position in the marriage.
> 
> IF being alpha male is what makes your wife swoon for you sexually, then I guess that's what you should do. But it is not and should not be a goal unto itself for any man or woman in a marriage.


I couldn't disagree more. Being the "top dog" isn't about being a prick and demanding you get your way all the time. Sometimes being a leader means admitting when you're wrong and asking for advice when you have a decision to make. In the end, the decision is yours, but good leaders ask for input. 

A man was intended from day 1 to be the head of a home. I know that doesn't sit well with the feminazi mentality of 2015, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the truth.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I couldn't disagree more. Being the "top dog" isn't about being a prick and demanding you get your way all the time. Sometimes being a leader means admitting when you're wrong and asking for advice when you have a decision to make. In the end, the decision is yours, but good leaders ask for input.
> 
> A man was intended from day 1 to be the head of a home. I know that doesn't sit well with the feminazi mentality of 2015, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the truth.


I'm not a feminazi, and it doesn't sit well with me either. 

But that argument will just get people yelling at each other with no resolution. If you're with a woman who agrees with Neanderthal thinking, then it's the right position to adopt. Personally, I wouldn't respect a woman who thought that I had some pre-ordained right to ascension in my marriage by virtue of my Y chromosome. YMMV.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LIT,

I'm going to begin at the beginning. 

1. Do you recognize that you are angry at your wife?
2. Do you know WHY you are angry at her? 

I understand why you are so focused on passion. Totally normal. Here's the thing. If you want to improve your marriage, the first step is to be calm. And to be truly calm - you need to let go of yur anger. 

When a man says: All I want is a little Fvcking passion my wife, is that too much to ask? 

That man is angry. 

And that's understandable. But - no kidding - take it from a formerly angry guy (me), anger at your spouse is counterproductive. 

I'm going to keep this very linear. 
1. Admit that you are angry (it's normal at this stage and not something to feel bad about)
2. Understand why you are angry (it's kind of obvious to a few of the posters here - but we've been helping people for a long time)
3. Address the anger driving issues which are under your control
4. Once your anger is gone/mostly gone - you will be free to act in a constructive, mutually beneficial way - you will feel free 

---------
If my style rubs you wrong,
Deejo and Farside both made the transition. They both have great advice as do many other posters here. 

One last thing - It is entirely possible that you don't feel angry in the day to day. That it only bubbles up here and there. I'm just going to tell you - that that is the starting place. 

It's the place where you have a piece of string you can pull to start unravelling. 












LuvIsTuff said:


> You have no idea what I'm "interested" in or willing to do. Please explain what you mean by "talk of true sparks".


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LIT,

Anybody reading this thread can see that you've got balls. 

You've openly addressed some pretty tough subjects. 

To compensate for being physically smaller and weaker, the average woman is much better at non-physical conflict than the average man. Better at using:
- Body language 
- Tone of voice 
- And other stuff



[/B]


LuvIsTuff said:


> I'm not sure that I'm a beta male in all aspects of our home. In fact, I'm very much the leader in most everything. But, there are times that she takes a stand on something that she's wrong about and when she does, instead of fighting, I give in. It happened yesterday. I knew it when it happened and I let it go.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I couldn't disagree more. Being the "top dog" isn't about being a prick and demanding you get your way all the time. Sometimes being a leader means admitting when you're wrong and asking for advice when you have a decision to make. In the end, the decision is yours, but good leaders ask for input.
> 
> A *man was intended from day 1 to be the head of a home. I know that doesn't sit well with the feminazi mentality of 2015, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the truth*.


This is where you went wrong.

Leadership goes to the person who leads. In your case, it's your wife.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> LIT,
> 
> I'm going to begin at the beginning.
> 
> ...


I would have called it frustrated, extremely frustrated, but I'm not scared of the word "angry" either. So be it. I'm angry. I'm angry that after 18+ years of trying to find a solution to my wife not giving a shlt about sex and constantly moving the bar on me, that I'm no further down the road than I was when I started. So, ok, I'm angry. Steps 1 & 2 complete. 

Step 3: What part of this is under my control?


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> This is where you went wrong.
> 
> Leadership goes to the person who leads. In your case, it's your wife.


I kind of thought that would ruffle your feathers.  We'll have to agree to disagree here.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Anybody reading this thread can see that you've got balls.


Yep, we know you've got b*lls, and we haven't even seen 'em!!

:lol:



LuvIsTuff said:


> Step 3: What part of this is under my control?


THIS part is under your control:

Stick to the plan, a "lite" 180, if you will. Long Walk discussed it early in this thread (page 5, I believe). If you aren't familiar with the 180, read this list and start doing these things for YOURSELF. Don't get bogged down thinking this is only for people dealing with extra-marital affairs. This is for YOU to get stronger for YOURSELF.

180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. *180 makes you look and feel strong.*

1.	Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore. 
2.	No frequent phone calls. 
3.	Don't point out "good points" in marriage. 
4.	Don't follow her/him around the house. 
5.	Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future. 
6.	Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS. 
7.	Don't ask for reassurances. 
8.	Don't buy or give gifts. 
9.	Don't schedule dates together. 
10.	Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable. 
11.	Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life! 
12.	Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent. 
13.	Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy! 
14.	When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to! 
15.	If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested. 
16.	Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them! 
17.	Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available, for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing. 
18.	No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value. 
19.	All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation! 
20.	Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF! 
21.	Don't be overly enthusiastic. 
22.	Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all! 
23.	Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more! 
24.	Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything. 
25.	Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil. 
26.	Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly. 
27.	Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write. 
28.	Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy. 
29.	Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care! 
30.	Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior. 
31.	Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!" 
32.	Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message. 
33.	When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW." 


Tomorrow is another day.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You may just have to swallow the painful possibility that your wife is just not into you physically. 

Women are weird. They grow up developing this very specific model of the kind of guy they find sexually attractive and that archetype is seared like a branding iron into their brain. They are not like us guys, who are able to be attracted to a variety of body types and looks, or who can change their tastes through the years.

Sometimes they meet guys who fit the mold, but later learn that these guys are cheaters, or losers, undependable, or just not the marrying type. These guys become "ex-boyfriends", those pesky vermin who manage to wander back into her life ten years down the road after she marries Mr. Right. 

Mr. Right (you) is steadfast, loyal, boring, dependable, forgiving, sweet, nice and a pushover. She marries you because she knows you don't have the physique or looks to have other women banging down the walls to get to you. Its not that you are out of shape, ugly or bad in the sack. It's just that you don't fit that archetype that lights her fire...rings her bell...fits her keyhole...

She can love you in all ways except sexual love. She can train herself to do without it, give in enough to get pregnant by you and have the kids she wanted. Then later on, sometimes, if she has no self-control, she'll look up an old boyfriend or some new dude to satisfy that craving for that specific kind of male she wants in bed. 

It doesn't matter how good of shape you are in, how giving you are in bed, or how good you are to her outside the bedroom. If she's not attracted to you in that way...she never will be.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> MEM11363 said:
> 
> 
> > Anybody reading this thread can see that you've got balls.
> ...


Is there a more detailed list?


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> You may just have to swallow the painful possibility that your wife is just not into you physically.
> 
> Women are weird. They grow up developing this very specific model of the kind of guy they find sexually attractive and that archetype is seared like a branding iron into their brain. They are not like us guys, who are able to be attracted to a variety of body types and looks, or who can change their tastes through the years.
> 
> ...


Ouch! I guess the truth hurts sometimes.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I kind of thought that would ruffle your feathers.  We'll have to agree to disagree here.


It didn't ruffle my feathers. I think a lot of women do not respect their husbands when they can so easily lead his behavior one way or another.

Note: there is a huge difference between a leader and a d!ckhead!

Since you assumed your maleness appointed you as de facto leader. You probably didn't stop to think how your wife perceives things.

I haven't read the whole thread but has anyone mentioned covert contracts yet? What men don't realize is that women can see right through that and it is not damp panty behavior!

Do your 180 and date yourself, become more interesting to yourself and your wife will notice. But, do these things because you want to become that man, not because it will get you laid.

A leader does things because they are the right thing to do, not because it will cause others to agree with them.


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

I've finished reading your thread. The advice of the last several pages is gold.

I'd add the following, which is really regurgitation, but intended more as a short list of unambiguous action items to do right now, as I think you're at the stage where simplicity is best, and once the simple is ingrained habit, you can built on you.

Note I said you, as this whole thing is actually about you, not her. 

1. Don't ever forget the sentence immediately above.
2. When you do forget it, and you will, commit to redoubling your efforts to stay true to that sentence.
3. Stop initiating everything. FULL STOP
4. Everything means everything, and therefore includes both attempts to initiate sex, and attempts to initiate conversations.
5. If she initiates conversation, engage truthfully and without malice.
6. If she initiates sex, engage with gusto. When finished, don't talk about it.
7. If she offers lackluster, pity, or duty sex, refuse it. 
8. If she wants to talk about #7, follow Rule #5.
9. Do not mope, especially around the house. If you can't help it, leave and do something else. Try your best to leave cheerfully.
10. Rekindle a hobby or passion that does not involve her. I don't care what it is - just get out and do it.

None of the above is about her. It's all about you, and making you a better man. We all can be better men and we all should work at that task.

Maybe she likes the better man you become. Maybe she doesn't.

Here's the secret - it makes no difference what she likes. You're getting better for you.

In my experience, striving to make myself a better man has resulted in a rising tide in all areas of my life, to include marital relations and all that implies. 

Never forget, however, that improving marital relations with your wife CANNOT be your ultimate goal. If it is, you will fail.


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## RespectWalk (Mar 16, 2015)

neuklas said:


> I've finished reading your thread. The advice of the last several pages is gold.
> 
> I'd add the following, which is really regurgitation, but intended more as a short list of unambiguous action items to do right now, as I think you're at the stage where simplicity is best, and once the simple is ingrained habit, you can built on you.
> 
> ...



Good stuff. This should be under the title "How to find your inner alpha." I don't always blame the beta male. Most aren't born that way, they get brow-beaten by modern western culture into being doormats where the queen of the house reigns supreme. BTW, I lived your advice myself and it saved me as a person.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

neuklas said:


> I've finished reading your thread. The advice of the last several pages is gold.
> 
> Never forget, however, that improving marital relations with your wife CANNOT be your ultimate goal. If it is, you will fail.


Like


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

neuklas said:


> I've finished reading your thread. The advice of the last several pages is gold.
> 
> I'd add the following, which is really regurgitation, but intended more as a short list of unambiguous action items to do right now, as I think you're at the stage where simplicity is best, and once the simple is ingrained habit, you can built on you.
> 
> ...


I'm on board. 

Question as it relates to #7(as if she'd initiate), but hypothetically.... To me, lackluster sex is sex with restrictions. Specifically, my wife keeps sex in a very small box. She's ok with missionary, cowgirl, and doggy style. But she refuses foreplay(yes I know foreplay is a multitude of non sexual actions. I'm referring to oral and non PIV sex). If I try ANYTHING other than the 3 positions listed, she says no. So should I refuse sex if she's going to keep the restrictions??


----------



## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I'm on board.
> 
> Question as it relates to #7(as if she'd initiate), but hypothetically.... To me, lackluster sex is sex with restrictions. Specifically, my wife keeps sex in a very small box. She's ok with missionary, cowgirl, and doggy style. But she refuses foreplay(yes I know foreplay is a multitude of non sexual actions. I'm referring to oral and non PIV sex). If I try ANYTHING other than the 3 positions listed, she says no. So should I refuse sex if she's going to keep the restrictions??


I cannot give you a recipe to follow for every conceivable situation. You have to use your judgment. But don't put the cart before the horse.

You're still thinking about her and what she might do. She might initiate, and things might be ok for a little bit, and then I might try something else, and she might say no, and that might ruin the mood, and then maybe next time when she might have initiated, she might remember that, and then she might decide not to.

Quit it.


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## RespectWalk (Mar 16, 2015)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I'm on board.
> 
> Question as it relates to #7(as if she'd initiate), but hypothetically.... To me, lackluster sex is sex with restrictions. Specifically, my wife keeps sex in a very small box. She's ok with missionary, cowgirl, and doggy style. But she refuses foreplay(yes I know foreplay is a multitude of non sexual actions. I'm referring to oral and non PIV sex). If I try ANYTHING other than the 3 positions listed, she says no. So should I refuse sex if she's going to keep the restrictions??


The not wanting foreplay is interesting. It seems to me that she doesn't want to derive pleasure from sex (with you). What woman doesn't want foreplay? Maybe she feels if she let's go and gets pleasure from it that she cedes some control to you and from all the things you've written it doesn't seem like she wants to cede any control. What she needs to understand is that you're not a guarantee. Nobody is a guarantee in anyone else's life. She has to earn you, and you her, forever. Start doing other things for yourself like the other poster said with #10.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

RespectWalk said:


> The not wanting foreplay is interesting. It seems to me that she doesn't want to derive pleasure from sex (with you). What woman doesn't want foreplay?


My wife, for example. 

Ok, that's not exactly the entire answer. Some just define foreplay differently. She wants to be held, touched, and kissed, just not sexually. Sex parts are for intercourse, not for touching or licking or other shenanigans before the main event. Most of us, having the same operational definition of foreplay, consider this to be odd.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

neuklas said:


> I cannot give you a recipe to follow for every conceivable situation. You have to use your judgment. But don't put the cart before the horse.
> 
> You're still thinking about her and what she might do. She might initiate, and things might be ok for a little bit, and then I might try something else, and she might say no, and that might ruin the mood, and then maybe next time when she might have initiated, she might remember that, and then she might decide not to.
> 
> Quit it.


There's an old saying that says "That's not a hill worth dying on". In other words, pick your battles. In this case, the foreplay and unwillingness to take the restraints off of our sex life IS a hill I'm willing to die on. When I think "lackluster" sex, I think about the norm for us; very little kissing, no foreplay, no oral, no nothing other than her getting on top of me and it all being over in 5 minutes or less. I'm willing to refuse anything that doesn't get us outside her box. And I'll bet my next paycheck that it'll come to this. She's adamantly against me going down on her, her giving me a BJ, or anything else.

@RespectWalk, you may be on to something with that "ceding control" thought. She used to love oral.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> You may just have to swallow the painful possibility that your wife is just not into you physically.
> 
> It doesn't matter how good of shape you are in, how giving you are in bed, or how good you are to her outside the bedroom. If she's not attracted to you in that way...she never will be.


Well Bandit stated very clearly, in a "guy way", what I've been trying to say this whole thread!

:lol:

I agree. With everything he said.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Rowan said:


> If this is the first conversation of this nature that you've initiated with her, she may just be confused and shocked. If you're not a talker in general, or don't typically "do" relationship talks, she may be wondering what's gotten into you. I know if my now-ex-husband had ever said all that to me, I would have wondered where the hell my husband went and if I could keep this new guy? It would have been so out of character for him that I probably wouldn't have been able to formulate an appropriate response.
> 
> There is the possibility that she's heard all this before, gotten her hopes up before, and been disappointed before. If you have a track record of strongly pursuing new things - from projects to hobbies to personal or relationship changes - only to taper them off within a short period of time as your attention wanders, she may be wondering how long all this will last before you revert to form.
> 
> ...


No more talking. Just do what you said you would do.

55


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> There's an old saying that says "That's not a hill worth dying on". In other words, pick your battles. In this case, the foreplay and unwillingness to take the restraints off of our sex life IS a hill I'm willing to die on. When I think "lackluster" sex, I think about the norm for us; very little kissing, no foreplay, no oral, no nothing other than her getting on top of me and it all being over in 5 minutes or less. I'm willing to refuse anything that doesn't get us outside her box. And I'll bet my next paycheck that it'll come to this. She's adamantly against me going down on her, her giving me a BJ, or anything else.
> 
> @RespectWalk, you may be on to something with that "ceding control" thought. She used to love oral.


Of course there is a hill worth dying on. Your hill may be different from my hill. But there is a hill.

At the risk of getting in the weeds here, you need to decide what your hill looks like. More importantly, you need to decide if you absolutely have to be on that hill every time.

From what I can gather, you miss the wild, uninhibited, crazy, monkey sex. I get it.

But I question whether you have to have that wild, crazy, monkey sex, with all kinds of foreplay, every single time. Some of your postings sound that way.

If so, my personal opinion is you're being completely unreasonable.

But again, my hill may not be your hill.

If you really sat down to think about it though, I predict what you'd say is that you want some percentage of your sexual togetherness to be the wild and crazy which, and this is important, necessarily would include her engaging with gusto in some of the things you really miss. 

Said better - you want her to desire sex with you and, at least some of the time, that desire should be manifest by her wanting to please you by engaging in certain acts.

Unfortunately, the acts you get are more about finishing quickly within certain parameters and not about her pleasing you and meeting your deepest needs.

So, what are you going to do?

You can't possibly know the answer to that question right now, which is why . . .

I caution, that all of the above is really premature. Again, it focuses on her behavior. Her behavior now is not important. Yours is.

Follow the basic rules. Work on being a better man. As you become one, the answers you seek will be found.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

LIT:

A few thoughts:

1. Neuklas' post is dead on. Sounds simple, but is incredibly hard to execute.

2. My experience has been that the easiest way to build momentum regarding independence and doing you for you is to start by focusing on the physical. Get in really good shape. No excuses. Get on a solid exercise plan, preferably lifting heavy weights, squats, deadlifts, pullups- heavy compound exercises. Protein heavy diet. When you see yourself getting jacked it is so much easier to realize your potential. You WILL start to see looks from women of all ages. You WILL start to see that you could walk out the door in any hour and find someone new who would gladly do what you've been pining for from your wife. You WILL start to find her demands amusing and kind of ridiculous by comparison.

3. The romantic weekend away was an important lesson. That whole thing was cringeworthy-- I hope you can see that now. If not, revert to point 2 above. Any woman who is down to f-ck will not require a f-ing carriage ride. Cut that right out of your repertoire.

4. Nice guys like you are afraid of being a d-ck. my opinion is that you should err on the side of being a d-ck until you've established a new paradigm. Your instinct will always be to bend over backwards for your wife. You need to bend over backwards for yourself. After you do this for a while, things will start to equalize . It will feel wrong to you, but I believe it is necessary to do this to break through the inbalance.

5. The number 1 most important thing is to know, know, KNOW that you do not need her, that you would actually be completely fine without her and that she needs to show YOU that she is worthy of you. Flip the f-ing script, my friend. Do you have a lot to offer? If not, fix that. If yes, then recognize your own worth and expect that she will recognize it too or you will be GONE and finding someone who will.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Deejo said:


> Like


That is so cool 

"Liked" in a cool way.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

neuklas said:


> Of course there is a hill worth dying on. Your hill may be different from my hill. But there is a hill.


Wow neuklas. Great comment. Just so you know, it has made it into my journal of "cool quotes." You are often cited here (especially by LongWalk) and now I know why.

Heck, I might even add it to my signature line (if you don't mind).


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

neuklas said:


> LuvIsTuff said:
> 
> 
> > There's an old saying that says "That's not a hill worth dying on". In other words, pick your battles. In this case, the foreplay and unwillingness to take the restraints off of our sex life IS a hill I'm willing to die on. When I think "lackluster" sex, I think about the norm for us; very little kissing, no foreplay, no oral, no nothing other than her getting on top of me and it all being over in 5 minutes or less. I'm willing to refuse anything that doesn't get us outside her box. And I'll bet my next paycheck that it'll come to this. She's adamantly against me going down on her, her giving me a BJ, or anything else.
> ...


BINGO! I hate the restrictions. I hate the inhibitions. It doesn't have to be crazy monkey sex every time. Hell, we have kids. Most of the time we have to be discreet. But when the kids are gone and we've got time to ourselves, yes, I want to get freaky deaky. This past weekend was a perfect example. Beautiful condo with a private hot tub and romance out the a$$ and it was "no don't do that", vanilla sex.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> But when the kids are gone and we've got time to ourselves, *yes, I want to get freaky deaky.* This past weekend was a perfect example. Beautiful condo with a private hot tub and romance out the a$$ *and it was "no don't do that", vanilla sex.*


No doubt, LiT. Should have DEFINITELY been freaky deaky sex!!! I'm with you, Brother. (And I'm a woman!!) No place for "vanilla" on a triple-scoop, Freaky Cherry Dream, banana-split (topped with whipped cream AND sprinkles!!) weekend! 

LiT's reality:










What LiT WANTED:


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> BINGO! I hate the restrictions. I hate the inhibitions. It doesn't have to be crazy monkey sex every time. Hell, we have kids. Most of the time we have to be discreet. But when the kids are gone and we've got time to ourselves, yes, I want to get freaky deaky. This past weekend was a perfect example. Beautiful condo with a private hot tub and romance out the a$$ and it was "no don't do that", vanilla sex.


Your romantic weekend was a covert contract. You were warned about it in advance, but either didn't understand the phrase, or didn't care.

The past is gone. Forget it. It happened and it's over now.

The new focus is today, and what you're going to do today to be a better man tomorrow. Tomorrow's focus will be the same. Continual, incremental, improvement as a man.

You certainly don't have to prove it to me. Or her. Or anyone else. 

You should want to prove it to yourself, for yourself. 

If you can't at least muster that, nothing else matters.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

No more romance. It is just a f-ing billboard advertising how much more you want it than she does.

Examine why you want it so much. It is boring, vanilla. It actually sucks. If you were single, would you go all all out to get this? Of course not. Why wouldn't you apply that same standard now?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> BINGO! I hate the restrictions. I hate the inhibitions. It doesn't have to be crazy monkey sex every time. Hell, we have kids. Most of the time we have to be discreet. But when the kids are gone and we've got time to ourselves, yes, I want to get freaky deaky. This past weekend was a perfect example. Beautiful condo with a private hot tub and romance out the a$$ and it was "no don't do that", vanilla sex.


I am willing to officially go on record as saying you are unlikely to get that with this women. Regardless of any progress you make towards improving your sex life, you will not find "freaky deaky".


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

neuklas said:


> I've finished reading your thread. The advice of the last several pages is gold.
> 
> I'd add the following, which is really regurgitation, but intended more as a short list of unambiguous action items to do right now, as I think you're at the stage where simplicity is best, and once the simple is ingrained habit, you can built on you.
> 
> ...


I thought about writing a similar post like this in the past as a general guide for those in a desireless/sexless marriage. I thought of it as a "soft 180". Soft in that you don't cut off all communication completely, but you do cut off all initiation of sex plus work on yourself. Back off and make sure you're being the best you you can be. This may be enough in lesser loss of attraction situations. In every case, you end up with a better you going forward.

If that isn't enough then ramping up communication is likely needed. Sometimes you think you're getting your message across, but your partner may not be hearing it. You may need active listening techniques and get them to repeat back to you what you are saying. You may even need to draw the line in sand and put divorce on the table to wake them up at some point. Some people just don't "get it" until they are forced with the end of the relationship.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't remember if you said so, and I'm too lazy to go back and read, but have you and your wife ever done that Love Languages survey? I dunno...might be something you want to try. Maybe you just haven't been pushing the right buttons. Maybe your wife gets horny balancing the checkbook with you and not from you massaging her neck...you know, one of those weirdass people who have to have their ego stroked in odd ways.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Cletus said:


> I am willing to officially go on record as saying you are unlikely to get that with this women. Regardless of any progress you make towards improving your sex life, you will not find "freaky deaky".


It's a sliding scale....


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Good thread and getting better. When a person changes him or herself for the better he puts more money in the pot. The spouse ultimately has put in more, too, to win. Unlike poker it's not a zero sum game. Neuklas, would you say that your wife has felt challenged to change herself?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Here's a question for serious advice.... So many of you recommend finding a hobby, something that takes me out of the house. 

I'm a professional musician(drummer). I've played music almost my entire life, but my wife isn't comfortable with me playing anywhere but in church. I get called to play gigs with bands that play in bars/night clubs on a fairly regular basis but I turn all of those offers down because I know my wife has an issue with it. I accepted a good gig a couple of years ago and she hated it. Her insecurity is squashing my ability to do what I love, not to mention turning down opportunities make money doing it. I have many connections and could book up my calendar and gig if I wanted to. Is my wife's request for me to not play in venues other than church a rational, legitimate request? I feel like calling some friends and saying "hey, I'm available if you know of anyone needing a drummer". I'm sick of turning down gigs because of her.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Anything that a spouse does to inhibit their partner from doing something they enjoy, that in and of itself is not a threat to the marriage, is irrational. 

She doesn't want you playing in bars and nightclubs because she knows women will hit on you. Funny that she doesn't give a damn about meeting your needs in the marriage, but God forbid you should do something that might result in your enjoyment and satisfaction.

She sounds like a controlling, holier than thou, churchified prude. I don't trust these kind of people, male or female. There is always an underlying agenda...something they are trying desperately to hide.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

By all means, take every drumming gig you can get. Drummers are cool . My brother is a drummer, and I still enjoy watching him play every chance I get.

LiT, she has forfeited the right to control where you play your music. If she starts having regular "monkey sex" with you, you can scale back to church gigs only. Until then... rock-and-roll!!!


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Here's a question for serious advice.... So many of you recommend finding a hobby, something that takes me out of the house.
> 
> I'm a professional musician(drummer). I've played music almost my entire life, but my wife isn't comfortable with me playing anywhere but in church. I get called to play gigs with bands that play in bars/night clubs on a fairly regular basis but I turn all of those offers down because I know my wife has an issue with it. I accepted a good gig a couple of years ago and she hated it. Her insecurity is squashing my ability to do what I love, not to mention turning down opportunities make money doing it. I have many connections and could book up my calendar and gig if I wanted to. Is my wife's request for me to not play in venues other than church a rational, legitimate request? I feel like calling some friends and saying "hey, I'm available if you know of anyone needing a drummer". I'm sick of turning down gigs because of her.


Do it!! I'm a churchified broad and my husband plays pool every Wed night in bars. Get out and get some perspective.... You are seriously too far up her A$$. Hanging on her ...STOP!


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## lonelyhusband321 (Feb 18, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Do it!! I'm a churchified broad and my husband plays pool every Wed night in bars. *Get out and get some perspective.... You are seriously too far up her A$$. Hanging on her ...STOP*!


:rofl:

TRUTH!!!!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Seriously? You are a drummer and gave up playing in bands in night clubs because your wife only wants you playing in churches?

And this is the same wife who thinks masturbation is adultery?

:lol: what the hell gave you the impression that you are the leader in your marriage? OMG dude....


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## lonelyhusband321 (Feb 18, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Anything that a spouse does to inhibit their partner from doing something they enjoy, that in and of itself is not a threat to the marriage, is irrational.
> 
> She doesn't want you playing in bars and nightclubs because she knows women will hit on you. Funny that she doesn't give a damn about meeting your needs in the marriage, but God forbid you should do something that might result in your enjoyment and satisfaction.
> 
> *She sounds like a controlling, holier than thou, churchified prude.* I don't trust these kind of people, male or female. There is always an underlying agenda...something they are trying desperately to hide.


The kind that believes anything other than "missionary" for children (and maybe 3 times a year besides that) are what it's all about. 

They see it as an obligation.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Just go. If she divorces you because of music, that's on her. Let her stay home and watch TV.


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## lonelyhusband321 (Feb 18, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Seriously? You are a drummer and gave up playing in bands in night clubs because your wife only wants you playing in churches?
> 
> And this is the same wife who thinks masturbation is adultery?
> 
> :lol: what the hell gave you the impression that you are the leader in your marriage? OMG dude....


:iagree:

HAD to quote this - because there is no *"triple like"* button....


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

My H and I get deaky freaky between the sheets and do not leave our Christianity at the door of the bar. I'm also a singer and have sang to thousands in church AND bars.

Sounds like she needs to sort out some doctrine, as do you.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> My H and I get *deaky freaky* between the sheets...


Ummm... Blossom, I believe that was actually freaky deaky, not deaky freaky...  There might be a difference...

:rofl:


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> Ummm... Blossom, I believe that was actually freaky deaky, not deaky freaky...  There might be a difference...
> 
> :rofl:


:rofl:
Hahahahah!! Didnt even notice.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Hey, with my H being the dom, maybe it can be called deaky freaky in my house.. I know when he blows my mind I don't give a F*** what its called


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Here's a question for serious advice....
> 
> I'm a professional musician(drummer). Her insecurity is squashing my ability to do what I love, not to mention . . .


Oh, FFS. Getting properly la!d with acceptable regularity is the least of your problems.

Your problem is that you've somehow bought into the delusion that a GOOD man must ask permission to pursue his passions.

Do you see the common denominator yet?

Hint - it's the emasculated you staring at you in the mirror before you hide on the toilet to wack off.

Please do yourself a favor - make at least one decision every day that is not influenced by whether you might bump up against one of the rules you've allowed her to impose on you.

I'm not advocating spite. I am, however, advocating a spine.


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## lonelyhusband321 (Feb 18, 2014)

neuklas said:


> Oh, FFS. Getting properly la!d with acceptable regularity is the least of your problems.
> 
> Your problem is that you've somehow bought into the delusion that a GOOD man must ask permission to pursue his passions.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

neuklas said:


> Please do yourself a favor - make at least one decision every day that is not influenced by whether you might bump up against one of the rules you've allowed her to impose on you.


Yep. One by one, chuck her rules right on out the window. Make your own rules.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Strong spine paired with strong compassion is my favorite,

Which takes strong intelligence to navigate.


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## lonelyhusband321 (Feb 18, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Strong spine paired with strong compassion is my favorite,
> 
> *Which takes strong intelligence to navigate*.


AND a pair....


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

lonelyhusband321 said:


> AND a pair....


Very much so

Hoping the best for you OP.


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## lonelyhusband321 (Feb 18, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Very much so
> 
> Hoping the best for you OP.


FWIW - me, too....


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Your loved oral when she respected YOU.

You are already hyper focused on getting better quality sex. Hyper focused on her - not you. 

You've got a lot of broken stuff to fix before the sex improves.







LuvIsTuff said:


> There's an old saying that says "That's not a hill worth dying on". In other words, pick your battles. In this case, the foreplay and unwillingness to take the restraints off of our sex life IS a hill I'm willing to die on. When I think "lackluster" sex, I think about the norm for us; very little kissing, no foreplay, no oral, no nothing other than her getting on top of me and it all being over in 5 minutes or less. I'm willing to refuse anything that doesn't get us outside her box. And I'll bet my next paycheck that it'll come to this. She's adamantly against me going down on her, her giving me a BJ, or anything else.
> 
> @RespectWalk, you may be on to something with that "ceding control" thought. She used to love oral.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

I got in touch with a friend who owns a recording studio and plays music full time. He's going to get my name out. He has sent me work in the past but I turned it all down and people stopped calling me. I have a few more calls to make tomorrow. God, I can't wait to get back to what I love!!!

The more I think about this music thing, the more I'm seeing areas that I've let my wife rule me. If you people knew me, you'd know how fvcked up that is. I'm a type A person to the max. Somehow I've ceded far too much ground at home. The waters around here are about to get rough.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You are already off course my man. Not in *what you want*
but in the *WHEN and HOW* 

If you execute with discipline, restraint and CALM, L2 will gradually WANT TO PLEASE YOU.

That will simply happen. You need to do your thing and not wait around for it. 

And YES she will fight you. Don't fight BACK. Just calmly say: This is important to ME, so I'm going to do it. 

And then - relax - because the key to all this is simple. She cannot MAKE you do, or not do anything. 

So let her rant and rave. Don't interrupt or debate. When she's finished - and let her finish - be silent for a change. And then when show time comes, do what you planned. 

After a few EPIC fails, she will stop trying to bully you. But an EPIC FAIL for her has two parts: you stay calm and you do what it is you planned despite her tirade. 



QUOTE=LuvIsTuff;12127570]There's an old saying that says "That's not a hill worth dying on". In other words, pick your battles. In this case, the foreplay and unwillingness to take the restraints off of our sex life IS a hill I'm willing to die on. When I think "lackluster" sex, I think about the norm for us; very little kissing, no foreplay, no oral, no nothing other than her getting on top of me and it all being over in 5 minutes or less. I'm willing to refuse anything that doesn't get us outside her box. And I'll bet my next paycheck that it'll come to this. She's adamantly against me going down on her, her giving me a BJ, or anything else.

@RespectWalk, you may be on to something with that "ceding control" thought. She used to love oral.[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LIT,

Prepare yourself. At some point L2 is going to try to use sex to either: punish or manipulate you.

I can't stress this enough. Don't let that happen. 

If she initiates and rejects you just say: Sexual teasing is childish and foolish. Don't do that again. 

And then when she denies doing it just laugh while shaking your head. And then - if she keeps denying - just go sleep in another room without any further discussion. 

As for manipulation - she may offer sex to get you to NOT play a gig or do something you want to do for yourself. If that happens just shrug and say: maybe some other time I've already got plans...

THIS type behavior creates desire provided it's not driven by anger. 




MarriedGuy221 said:


> OP - Its easy to go down the slippery slope of letting yourself be sidelined in a marriage. Everyone who is a good husband does this to some extent anyway in providing support for his wife (same holds true wife to husband throughout my post). Why do we do it? Because we expect reciprocation - our wives give up things for us and we build new passions together.
> 
> In your case, you gave and got nothing in return. Of course you gave more - wouldn't any good spouse want to see their mate happy? Unfortunately, things probably slowly and steadily became one-sided and you didn't realize it was only give, give, give.
> 
> ...


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

A calm dom.... Powerful stuff.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Op, did your wife ever ask you to go to addiction recovery, like an AA group?


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> You are already off course my man. Not in *what you want*
> but in the *WHEN and HOW*



I'm not sure what you're referring to. I've said several things in the past few posts. Are you referring to my "hill worth dying on" statement?


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Op, did your wife ever ask you to go to addiction recovery, like an AA group?


For what addiction??


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> For what addiction??


Yes, any time in years past


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> LuvIsTuff said:
> 
> 
> > For what addiction??
> ...


I'm not sure why you think I would have needed to go to a recovery program. I'm not an addict or alcoholic.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Because you admitted to such earlier in your thread.... plus I can see remnants of it in your behavior.

You don't "use" now, but there was a past drug use and you "laid down" alcohol a couple of years ago.

So, did your wife ever ask you to go to an addiction recovery program anytime you guys have been married?


----------



## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Neuklas, would you say that your wife has felt challenged to change herself?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wouldn't say that. I would say that ingraining positive change is beneficial for the individual man. Some effects easily are anticipated. Many other changes are not, at least at the inception of the endeavor. In my experience, the magnitude of positive change that derives from an unwavering commitment to be a better man is astonishing.

Correlation or causality? Don't know, and it doesn't really matter to me.

Insofar as my marital relationship is concerned, I would not say that my wife was somehow inspired via osmosis to change herself. 

Rather, I would speculate that she became more content, more trusting in my leadership, and more respectful of what she saw as the life I was attempting to create and those things, in turn, caused her to want to nurture our relationship, which necessarily included increased effort on her part to meet my needs.

Implicit in my speculation is the belief that she still loved me and still had some respect for me. I do believe if those sentiments are gone, then our marriage would not have been one of the things that changed for the better.

I again must stress that none of these downstream benefits can be the goal of a successful individual transformation. Sometimes I feel like a broken record on that - 

With respect to OP, if he persists wrongly in focusing on altering his wife's behavior towards him, he ultimately will be mired hopelessly in disappointment.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

neuklas said:


> I wouldn't say that. I would say that ingraining positive change is beneficial for the individual man. Some effects easily are anticipated. Many other changes are not, at least at the inception of the endeavor. In my experience, the magnitude of positive change that derives from an unwavering commitment to be a better man is astonishing.
> 
> Correlation or causality? Don't know, and it doesn't really matter to me.
> 
> ...


Could NOT agree MORE! Well said..


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Because you admitted to such earlier in your thread.... plus I can see remnants of it in your behavior.
> 
> You don't "use" now, but there was a past drug use and you "laid down" alcohol a couple of years ago.
> 
> So, did your wife ever ask you to go to an addiction recovery program anytime you guys have been married?


Yes, I used drugs 20 years ago, in college, and quit cold turkey when my then girlfriend and now my wife gave me an ultimatum. And yes, I stopped drinking almost 2 years ago. But I didn't stop drinking as a heavy drinker. In fact, I only drank minimally, on rare occasions. I haven't been to any treatment program and honestly it's not necessary. I'm not sure what you think you see...


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Yes, I used drugs 20 years ago, in college, and quit cold turkey when my then girlfriend and now my wife gave me an ultimatum. And yes, I stopped drinking almost 2 years ago. But I didn't stop drinking as a heavy drinker. In fact, I only drank minimally, on rare occasions. I haven't been to any treatment program and honestly it's not necessary. I'm not sure what you think you see...


Thank you for the info...

What made you decide to stop drinking?

I've already alluded to what I see.

And I am not the only one here who sees it.

I think it is worth considering... and I don't mean the full board intreatment recovery programs. I'm talking about local AA or studying things like Codependent No More or the Big Red Book from Adult Children of Alcoholics

Just like you dug into NMMNG and the manipulation section spoke to you, the same thing would happen in the AA book or the one from ACOA. If you read those, you would see what I and others here are picking up on, behaviors that are a layer in your sex life that I believe would help if you had greater awareness of them, so that you can have healthier balance. AT LEAST get Codependent No More. That lack of balance you feel in your relationship can be found in that book in addition to the one you are reading.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

MarriedGuy221 said:


> OP - Its easy to go down the slippery slope of letting yourself be sidelined in a marriage. Everyone who is a good husband does this to some extent anyway in providing support for his wife (same holds true wife to husband throughout my post). Why do we do it? Because we expect reciprocation - our wives give up things for us and we build new passions together.
> 
> In your case, you gave and got nothing in return. Of course you gave more - wouldn't any good spouse want to see their mate happy? Unfortunately, things probably slowly and steadily became one-sided and you didn't realize it was only give, give, give.
> 
> So I don't fault you and have no time for this alpha / beta BS - its crap but that's another story. A guy naturally loses a lot of his "guyness" in the process of marriage - and we have to do periodic checks to keep "guy", "husband", "dad", "lover", "provider", "loner" and "partner" roles in synch.


Very well said. I haven't lost my Alpha role. I've given in too much, too many times, but I know who and what I am. 

I definitely have given WAY more than I've received. I even told my wife about 6 months ago that "our relationship is 1 sided" and that "she takes, takes, takes, but doesn't put any effort in to giving". Nothing changed after pointing that out, and as I've become more selfless, she's become more selfish.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The failure of communism – from each according to his needs, to each according to his ability – holds true in marriage as well. When spouses treat the state of being married as the guarantor of emotional and sexual satisfaction, they are deceiving themselves. Success comes from work. Marriage is simply a contract to build a life together.

All too often husbands and wives assume that they are union members and that the union is going to fight for them. Aside from MC most of the intervention revolves around family law in the process of divorce. There few agents of the state that promote marriage. There is no ombudsman to whom you can go to get a better sex life.

LT,

Did you read neuklas's thread?


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Thank you for the info...
> 
> What made you decide to stop drinking?
> 
> ...


I'll look in to the book. If it has any nuggets worth taking, I'm good with that.

I stopped drinking because my son was getting to an age where I preferred not to model that to him. I'm not against alcohol in any way. But I would sure be happy if my son never had a drink, especially until he's old enough and mature enough to handle it responsibly.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

LongWalk said:


> The failure of communism – from each according to his needs, to each according to his ability – holds true in marriage as well. When spouses treat the state of being married as the guarantor of emotional and sexual satisfaction, they are deceiving themselves. Success comes from work. Marriage is simply a contract to build a life together.
> 
> All too often husbands and wives assume that they are union members and that the union is going to fight for them. Aside from MC most of the intervention revolves around family law in the process of divorce. There few agents of the state that promote marriage. There is no ombudsman to whom you can go to get a better sex life.
> 
> ...


I've read so many things.. I'm not sure exactly which thread you're referring to. Please paste the link.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Just wanted to second this recommendation from jld.

There are plenty of relationship books that will talk to you about how to do things 'right'.

I like this book because it very clearly draws the picture of how things go 'wrong', and how to avoid them.

If you have a partner that has experienced some kind of trauma, I would say it is a must read.



jld said:


> You could try this book:
> 
> Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love: Sue Johnson: 9780316113007: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> ...


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I'm glad you brought that forward Deejo... there is a blend of issues here.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

And to give credit where it is due, Deejo is the one who brought _Hold Me Tight_ to my attention. 

Thank you, Deejo. I am really enjoying that book.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes




LuvIsTuff said:


> I'm not sure what you're referring to. I've said several things in the past few posts. Are you referring to my "hill worth dying on" statement?


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Yes


So how am I on the wrong track by saying that I'm willing to refuse her table scraps sex?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LIT,

I'll be more specific:
1. If you follow the Neuklas/180 lite model, you completely stop initiating sex. You don't mention sex - at all - in any context. 
2. If L2 initiates and she generally seems sincere in her affect - sort of a thing where her tone shows she WANTS to be there: than you have your typical encounter.

You do NOT comment/complain about the lack of foreplay. 

3. In the meantime you continue to assert yourself outside the bedroom. Do your Gigs - show a general lack of focus on whether she approves of what you are doing/not doing, etc. 

At some point - in addition to initiating vanilla sex - L2 is going to do something really radical - she's going to TALK to you about sex. 

She's going to ask why you don't initiate any longer. 

This next bit - maybe Deejo or someone else can help you here. 

The only thing I'll say is - you need to say as little as possible in order to get her to say as much as possible. 

No offense - but your wife is a mystery to you. Partly because that 'Type A' thing you do inhibits feedback. 

You are determined and smart. You are also a bit defensive - and that inhibits the type of intensely unfiltered conversation you need. 

Examples:

Good start is: 

LIT: It feels bad when I get the sense you don't really want to connect (have sex) with me.
L2: Why do you think that?
LIT: In the beginning - you truly seemed to feel desire and you wanted foreplay. You no longer seem to feel desire and you know longer want foreplay. 
L2: (getting angry) What do you mean by foreplay?

Freezing the frame here. 

This type issue - lack of passion - is not typically fixable via talk. So best to DO what creates passion and let nature take its course.

At some point - your wife will realize you are NOT ok with her - hurry up and finish - style. And IF you have fixed the respect issue she will fix that all by herself. 

And if you don't fix the respect issue - no amount of talk will help. And a lot of talk - will actually make it worse. 




LuvIsTuff said:


> So how am I on the wrong track by saying that I'm willing to refuse her table scraps sex?


----------



## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> LIT,
> 
> I'll be more specific . . .


Agree with everything here, with the caveat that I'm beginning to think he's not ready to engage with her because he's still coming at this from the perspective of "what should I do if she does X."

i.e. he's still totally focused on her and how she reacts to him, to include how his behavior of X may result in her response of Y. 

He needs to break the addiction, if you will, of modeling his actions based on the response he thinks he will get to it.

I don't say addiction lightly but I think that's what it is. For instance, once upon a time, I was hooked, badly, on smokeless tobacco. I'm a southern boy and spent almost 2 decades playing travel baseball, among other outdoor pursuits. Dip was ubiquitous in my world.

Once I got older, I "tried" to quit. Failed a lot. When I would quit, the can was all I could think about - it hovered above me, and eventually I caved.

Then one day, my toddler asked me what was in my mouth, and I lied, saying it was nothing. And then I realized that I lied to her about something stupid, some dumb crutch I was carrying and too afraid to drop. I lied to my kid and I don't want to be that guy. And that day I quit and I never went back.

The point I'm trying to make is it took me not liking who I was to quit - 

Similarly, LIT is going to have to not like who he is to change, and that change must be for him and him alone. Right now it's for her, or at least his marital relationship with her, or what he imagines his marriage with her should be.

In my opinion, changing for someone else does not work. Or at least doesn't work long term.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Both of these posts are freakin' brilliant...



MEM11363 said:


> LIT,
> 
> I'll be more specific:
> 1. If you follow the Neuklas/180 lite model, you completely stop initiating sex. You don't mention sex - at all - in any context.
> ...





neuklas said:


> Agree with everything here, with the caveat that I'm beginning to think *he's not ready *to engage with her because he's still coming at this from the perspective of "what should I do if she does X."
> 
> i.e. *he's still totally focused on her and how she reacts to him, *to include how his behavior of X may result in her response of Y.
> 
> ...


You are right... when my H realized he didn't like what he saw in himself towards me he broke down to his mentor and said "I have to change this." My situation was MUCH more dire than your's OP, BUT the main reason I share much of what I share is that everything I tried the first six years didn't work. What I share now that I used these past couple of years has worked and produced from dramatic changes. Many of us here are echoing each other about your situation. I hope it sticks and helps well for you. There is freedom you have never known on the other side of it.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> LIT,
> 
> I'll be more specific:
> 1. If you follow the Neuklas/180 lite model, you completely stop initiating sex. You don't mention sex - at all - in any context.
> ...


That makes complete sense! I'm so appreciative of all the advice you're giving.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

neuklas said:


> Please do yourself a favor - make at least one decision every day that is not influenced by whether you might bump up against one of the rules you've allowed her to impose on you.
> 
> I'm not advocating spite. I am, however, advocating a spine.


Ok, so in taking this advice, I did something today that I'm certain will cause friction, if not a full on war. Actually "war" isn't a proper term, because I'm not going to argue or fight about this. But she's sure to bring it up and she won't be nice about it.

Ever since I got a Facebook account 4-5 years ago, I've never accepted friend requests from females outside of my family because my wife told me she would rather me not... During that time, she has accepted many, many friend requests from men who are in her business network, but justifies it as "business". We've argued about it before, but I've followed her wishes for several years now and not had any female friends on FB. 

Today I sent out about 10 friend requests to legitimate female friends. Some from church and some from outside church. I've already had 4 accept my requests and I know she's going to see this. It's going to come up, guaranteed.


----------



## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Ok, so in taking this advice, I did something today that I'm certain will cause friction . . .
> 
> Today I sent out about 10 friend requests to legitimate female friends . . . It's going to come up, guaranteed.


To what end? To prove you can take some trivial action you know she doesn't like? Is social media connectivity that important to you? After all that you've posted about your situations, your first flung gauntlet is Facebook?

Ok. 

And when she calls you out on it, what are you going to do? Wax poetic about the scourge of hypocrisy and glass houses and damm!t, you're finally putting your big man foot down . . . "Hitherto shall thou come" and all that.

I freely confess to not understanding the allure of Facebook, though I cannot for the life of me see how this is anything other than spiteful and childish on your part.

You were supposed to pick something important missing from your life and rekindle it. You would resume it because it's an important part of who you are and who you want to be. With all that you have posted, I would have thought your first salvo would be more weighty than social media.

Even with all that said, the ongoing problem is that you remain 100% focused on how your actions may provoke a response in her, as opposed to how your decision-making leads to the life you desire to build for yourself.

Good luck with the Facebook conversation tonight. I hope you can get through it without sounding like a petulant teenager simply acting out for attention.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

neuklas said:


> LuvIsTuff said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, so in taking this advice, I did something today that I'm certain will cause friction . . .
> ...


Call it what you want. It's a start. It's 1 thing that she has made rules on that I shouldn't have allowed. It's not as if there's a laundry list of important things that I have allowed her to control. The music was one, and I'm already making contact with friends in the business to get that going again.


----------



## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Call it what you want. It's a start. It's 1 thing that she has made rules on that I shouldn't have allowed. It's not as if there's a laundry list of important things that I have allowed her to control. The music was one, and I'm already making contact with friends in the business to get that going again.


Atta boy, your best post yet. You shouldn't give a sh!t what I think. Keep it up.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

In fairness to LIT, after you have been whipped for a long time, almost anything you do outside the norm is going to seem a little bit like teenage rebellion. 

I think you've got to just dive into this and realize there will be friction, but that you're committed to doing things in a new way and that you'll keep going regardless of how your wife reacts.

After a while, it will be easier to feel like you're doing things in a truly independent way. But even as it gets easier you will still from time to time step back and ask yourself whether you are doing something simply to get a reaction. 

I think this introspection is the hardest part of the process. You need to be brutally honest with yourself and to check yourself if you feel like you are really getting into the mode of defining yourself according to her.

The end goal is to exist independently, to act rather than react, to allow her the opportunity to come to you but to know that you will keep doing your thing with or without her.

It is far easier said than done and each person is going to take a different path to get there.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

I think if you feel good about "taking back" some control with FB, so be it. Just remember.... do not engage in ANY kind of argument when she brings it up. Remember the 180.

You simply tell her now that you are going to be drumming again, you want to get the word out to as many people as you can. And Facebook is a great way to do it .

No apologies, no explanations beyond that, and whatever you do, do NOT engage in anything that resembles this: "But YOU get to have new male FB friends, why is it wrong for ME to have new female FB friends???"

If you go down that road, she takes the control right back.

Just smile and let it go.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Very well said. I haven't lost my Alpha role. I've given in too much, too many times, but I know who and what I am.
> 
> I definitely have given WAY more than I've received. I even told my wife about 6 months ago that "our relationship is 1 sided" and that "she takes, takes, takes, but doesn't put any effort in to giving". Nothing changed after pointing that out, and as I've become more selfless, she's become more selfish.


Nothing changed because you waited for her to initiate the change. Quit doing that. Start changing things for yourself. 

Oh...and if you find yourself asking permission to do things, stop doing that. Say to her..."I am playing a gig Staurday night with this new band so you need to watch the kids or get a sitter to watch them so you can come with me..." or "I've been asked to sit in at a session next Tuesday evening, so make sure you're home to watch the kids." 

Don't ever ask her what you are going to do...tell her what you are going to do and do it. You don't need to be rude or mean, just firm.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Oh...and if you find yourself asking permission to do things, stop doing that. Say to her..."I am playing a gig Staurday night with this new band so you need to watch the kids or get a sitter to watch them so you can come with me..." or "I've been asked to sit in at a session next Tuesday evening, so make sure you're home to watch the kids."


Exactly!

She will likely try to throw up an obstacle by telling you she can't watch the kids... just smile and say, "No problem. We'll call a sitter." And then call the sitter.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Does anyone else ever get uneasy when these threads come up and the Collective forum, most of whom have no training nor expertise in relationships outside of their own dispenses advice to a person they do not know? All of which happens in what is usually a one-sided information vacuum? 

I know how many of you could do my job well. I guess I just cringe a little when I see the amateur psychotherapists practicing on a virtual couch in an unregulated office.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Does anyone else ever get uneasy when these threads come up and the Collective forum, most of whom have no training nor expertise in relationships outside of their own dispenses advice to a person they do not know? All of which happens in what is usually a one-sided information vacuum?
> 
> I know how many of you could do my job well. I guess I just cringe a little when I see the amateur psychotherapists practicing on a virtual couch in an unregulated office.


Hey Cletus...

Analyze this....:moon:


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Cletus said:


> I know how many of you could do my job well. I guess I just cringe a little when I see the amateur psychotherapists practicing on a virtual couch in an unregulated office.


Common sense does not require a PhD in psychology.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> I think if you feel good about "taking back" some control with FB, so be it. Just remember.... do not engage in ANY kind of argument when she brings it up. Remember the 180.
> 
> You simply tell her now that you are going to be drumming again, you want to get the word out to as many people as you can. And Facebook is a great way to do it
> 
> ...


You just hit the nail on the head. I've been searching out past musical contacts and networking via FB. I'm not trying to "put my foot down". But if I can kill 2 birds with 1 stone, so be it. She has controlled me via FB and I'm looking for anything and everything that I've allowed her to make the rules. Some may seem petty, but by god they're real!!!


----------



## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

My advice is worth every penny I'm paid for it.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> You just hit the nail on the head. I've been searching out past musical contacts and networking via FB. I'm not trying to "put my foot down". But if I can kill 2 birds with 1 stone, so be it. She has controlled me via FB and I'm looking for anything and everything that I've allowed her to make the rules. Some may seem petty, but by god they're real!!!


Use LinkedIn. Its for professionals. You're a professional. FB is for amateurs and losers.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Does anyone else ever get uneasy when these threads come up and the Collective forum, most of whom have no training nor expertise in relationships outside of their own dispenses advice to a person they do not know? All of which happens in what is usually a one-sided information vacuum?
> 
> I know how many of you could do my job well. I guess I just cringe a little when I see the amateur psychotherapists practicing on a virtual couch in an unregulated office.


Credentials are overrated. Just go look at what happened when CuriousWife went to a certified DOCTOR about her husband's LD problems.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

4x4 said:


> My advice is worth every penny I'm paid for it.



and blood sweat and tears living it....


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

If she complains about the Facebook, just say, "It's not big deal. Sorry you feel that way."

Don't go and post on the these new women friend's walls. Let them post on yours.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> LuvIsTuff said:
> 
> 
> > You just hit the nail on the head. I've been searching out past musical contacts and networking via FB. I'm not trying to "put my foot down". But if I can kill 2 birds with 1 stone, so be it. She has controlled me via FB and I'm looking for anything and everything that I've allowed her to make the rules. Some may seem petty, but by god they're real!!!
> ...


In the music business, FB is gold. Besides, I'm not looking to go on tour or quit my day job. I just want to gig a couple of times a month. I'll look in to LinkedIn though.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> In the music business, FB is gold. I'll look in to LinkedIn though. Thx


Agreed.... I have many professionals, as buddies, that use facebook. They use everything.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> Common sense does not require a PhD in psychology.


There's a whole lot more than simple common sense floating around in some of these threads.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Hey Cletus...
> 
> Analyze this....:moon:


My uninformed opinion is too much UV and not enough sun screen. Either that, or imminent rectal prolapse. But then, I'm not a professional.

Sorry to step on your credentials. 

So I guess I am the only one who thinks this place has an overrated opinion of its own ability to play shrink. So be it.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

LIT- just go do one gig ASAP, play your face off, watch the women react and then go home and have a chuckle of what your wife expects by comparison.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> LIT- just go do one gig ASAP, play your face off, watch the women react and then go home and have a chuckle of what your wife expects by comparison.


LOL!! I've been playing drums far too long to think that women like drummers. There's a neanderthal element that just doesn't do it for them. Shoulda learned to play lead gtr!!!!


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> LOL!! I've been playing drums far too long to think that women like drummers. There's a neanderthal element that just doesn't do it for them. Shoulda learned to play lead gtr!!!!



Tell me who you are buying your weed from....

Um....

Have you ever seen Ringo Star's wife, Barbara Bach?

They met filming a movie about Neanderthals.


Google pics of Neil Peart's wife. Carrie Nuttall. She's smokin hot.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I play guitar and bass, but it never helped me with chicks. 

May also have something to do with the fact that I'm uglier than a baboon's ass.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Tell me who you are buying your weed from....
> 
> Um....
> 
> ...


Ringo is a billionaire. Not sure how Peart pulled that off. LOL It's true though. Chicks don't dig the drummer.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

If the band is good, they will be interested in any member. Jack White had a drummer whom many thought hot.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

LongWalk said:


> If the band is good, they will be interested in any member. Jack White had a drummer whom many thought hot.


Jack White's drummer was his sister. That doesn't count.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> LOL!! I've been playing drums far too long to think that women like drummers. There's a neanderthal element that just doesn't do it for them. Shoulda learned to play lead gtr!!!!


This is so off base for me and every woman friend I have it's funny!


Wear a tank top while playing. Let your passion for the beat, the music shine through your facial expression and every move. Women who are passionate fall to pieces around men who are also passionate.


I agree with Bandit, what kinda weed are you smoking? It's making you rather dim witted.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> LuvIsTuff said:
> 
> 
> > LOL!! I've been playing drums far too long to think that women like drummers. There's a neanderthal element that just doesn't do it for them. Shoulda learned to play lead gtr!!!!
> ...


30+ years of playing has convinced me that I'm right. But hey, I'll buy what you're selling, minus the tank top.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> LOL!! I've been playing drums far too long to think that women like drummers.


That's because women don't usually throw their panties up on stage when you're drumming in the *church band!!!!*

:rofl:

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> That's because women don't usually throw their panties up on stage when you're drumming in the *church band!!!!*
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> (Sorry, couldn't resist.)


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

In the floor!!!


----------



## john1068 (Nov 12, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> 30+ years of playing has convinced me that I'm right. But hey, I'll buy what you're selling, minus the tank top.


It matters not what reality for you may be. All that matters is what effect it has on your wife. If she feels like your gigs creates competition for her then that's all that matters. I think it's time to upset the balance in your relationship.


----------



## Justinian (Mar 7, 2015)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Jack White's drummer was his sister. That doesn't count.


Actually, Jack and Meg were married from 1996-2000. Jack took her last name, his "maiden" name is Gillis. Don't know why, but he likes to tell everyone she's his sister.

(Geez, my first post and this is all I have to contribute  )


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Justinian said:


> (Geez, my first post and this is all I have to contribute  )


No worry, Justinian. Every one has their "role" on TAM...

:lol:


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Was Ray Lamontagne song an emotional affair?

LuffisTuff can you play something and post it on YouTube? If you get a lot of hits, maybe your wife will notice you?


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Justinian said:


> Actually, Jack and Meg were married from 1996-2000. Jack took her last name, his "maiden" name is Gillis. Don't know why, but he likes to tell everyone she's his sister.
> 
> (Geez, my first post and this is all I have to contribute  )


Really?! You learn something new every day....


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> That's because women don't usually throw their panties up on stage when you're drumming in the *church band!!!!*
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> (Sorry, couldn't resist.)


Touche :smthumbup:


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

So, just a little update on what I now refer to as "Operation Get My F'n Life Back". It's been a little quiet around here the last couple of days. Wifey was very on edge last night. She didn't bring anything specific up, but she got mad at me over the DUMBEST thing ever. She even called me a F'n A-hole. I didn't get mad because it was actually kind of funny. I didn't laugh though.. She's definitely on edge.

I went to Guitar Center today with my son and while I was there I went by the bulletin board where people post ads for bands, musicians needed, etc.... There's a band right here in my town that not only needs a drummer, but specifically mentioned playing cover songs to bands that I like and listen to. I contacted the band leader and he's going to take a look at my Youtube channel to see what I can do. We'll see what happens. I also talked to a friend of mine who has called me several times in the past year, wanting me to fill in with him, and I told him that from now on if he needs me, I'm there. The guy that I mentioned owning a recording studio gave me the name of a country music artist that is looking for a band. I friended him on FB and we're going to talk more. My wife doesn't know I'm putting things in to motion with my music. She'll find out soon enough.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> My wife doesn't know I'm putting things in to motion with my music. She'll find out soon enough.


<rimshot>


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Best of luck, LIT.

You'll feel much better with your drumming! :smthumbup:


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Wifey was very on edge last night. She didn't bring anything specific up, but she got mad at me over the DUMBEST thing ever. She even called me a F'n A-hole.


Be wary. Tests are in the offing. Some will be direct. Some will be devious.

Follow the rules. 

The tests will probe your resolve. Your will.

It's not your will against hers. It's your will against the old you that was once too comfortable and compliant. 

Again, follow the rules.

Do not argue against anger. Do not take the bait of tit for tat or dueling insults. Don't get drawn into discussions of equivalency. Don't justify. 

One thing I found invaluable was the comment, paraphrased, "when you're ready to discuss this matter in a productive way as an adult, let me know. Now obviously is not a good time for you."

Above all, be calm. Be confident. Do not tolerate histrionics or personal affront, but in so doing, you must be above the fray.

Be a man who knows his worth and isn't afraid of standing up for it.

You're doing well. Keep it up.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Also, when in doubt just say nothing and walk away. that way you remove the temptation to respond altogether. this also allows whatever insult she tossed to just stand in the air so it is unavoidably obvious who is out of control.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

The more hobbies my husband took up the less sex we had. I read your other threads and you already don't spend enough time as a married couple. How is taking up another hobby going to help? The two of you will grow farther and farther apart unfortunately.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LIT,

A couple quick observations in order of importance. 

By FAR the best MC that I ever worked with - told me something that is both incredibly simple and valuable. 

Anger is not a primary emotion. Anger is almost always the by-product of either:
- fear or
- hurt

So L2 is either hurt or frightened. 

Probably frightened. You've massively broken pattern. Totally blown off one of her asymmetric rules - regarding female contact without any discussion. 

The reason she hasn't directly addressed it is twofold. 
- She knows it's a difficult argument to make given her conduct. FYI: she could always use "Linked In" for business contacts. 
- You didn't even discuss it - just did it - that's a very strong signal that her viewpoint doesn't matter to you so much. She likely realized that a full frontal attack would fail. 

Are your FB privacy settings for L2, the same as hers are for you? IMO - they should be. 

So remind yourself - that anger - hers - yours - anyone's - is mainly a protective response to fear. 

As she loses control she's going to panic for a while. The ONLY way for L2 to ever get comfortable with her loss of control is to replace that need for control, with trust. 

M2 doesn't need to control me, because she trusts me. 

So you have to be totally clean. If any of those women start openly flirting with you - you unfriend them. Don't explain, or apologize or rationalize. Just - unfriend. 

And when faced with tears - and they aren't far off - stick with these two themes:
1. I'm doing this FOR me, not against you. 
2. Why don't you trust me? 

Hope that helps. 

--------
If she really flips out and mentions divorce, just be silent. Don't argue. And don't counter threaten or offer to help her pack. 




LuvIsTuff said:


> So, just a little update on what I now refer to as "Operation Get My F'n Life Back". It's been a little quiet around here the last couple of days. Wifey was very on edge last night. She didn't bring anything specific up, but she got mad at me over the DUMBEST thing ever. She even called me a F'n A-hole. I didn't get mad because it was actually kind of funny. I didn't laugh though.. She's definitely on edge.
> 
> I went to Guitar Center today with my son and while I was there I went by the bulletin board where people post ads for bands, musicians needed, etc.... There's a band right here in my town that not only needs a drummer, but specifically mentioned playing cover songs to bands that I like and listen to. I contacted the band leader and he's going to take a look at my Youtube channel to see what I can do. We'll see what happens. I also talked to a friend of mine who has called me several times in the past year, wanting me to fill in with him, and I told him that from now on if he needs me, I'm there. The guy that I mentioned owning a recording studio gave me the name of a country music artist that is looking for a band. I friended him on FB and we're going to talk more. My wife doesn't know I'm putting things in to motion with my music. She'll find out soon enough.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

soccermom2three said:


> The more hobbies my husband took up the less sex we had. I read your other threads and you already don't spend enough time as a married couple. How is taking up another hobby going to help? The two of you will grow farther and farther apart unfortunately.


I have ZERO hobbies that take me away from home. ZERO!!!


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I have ZERO hobbies that take me away from home. ZERO!!!


How much time do you spend with your wife, just the two of you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Soccer,

Did you read the bit where L2 told LIT that: masturbation is the same as having an affair. It's 'cheating' on her.

This is the same woman who had a one night stand. 

Same one who gave him the signal to proceed on their weekend and then shot him down when he initiated - and who laughed about giving him blue balls the next day. 

And the same person who just screamed: you fvcking azz hole at LIT over nothing.


----------
This here - is a massive respect issue. 

Can't fix that by spending more time together. 





soccermom2three said:


> The more hobbies my husband took up the less sex we had. I read your other threads and you already don't spend enough time as a married couple. How is taking up another hobby going to help? The two of you will grow farther and farther apart unfortunately.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

It's unfortunate. He had such forward momentum on his other thread. This one seems to be making him go backward.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

soccermom2three said:


> It's unfortunate. He had such forward momentum on his other thread. This one seems to be making him go backward.


It would have appeared that I had forward momentum, but I learned over the weekend that nothing had really changed. She's all about receiving, and rarely about giving. In the words of Matthew 7:6, I can't keep casting my pearls to the swine. The imbalance in this marriage is severe. I've known it for years. I just never knew how to fix it. Now I'm attempting to fix it. If she's willing to walk away, I'm good with that. My life is half over at best. I can't spend the rest of it with someone that doesn't feel as strongly for me as I do for her.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I'm glad you were able to explain that Lila because I was in the cheering section for him to pursue his music passion, but have been seriously cringing at his implementation. I just didn't have the words to express it with so much other going on in my life, but now I do. Its unhealthy and mean spirited. Its what I call adding destruction to destruction and am not an advocate of that path. Pursue your music in a way that is constructive not destructive. Constructive does not necessarily mean relegating it solely to the church, but the chip on the shoulder is DEFINITELY destructive. We said CALM strength, not half c0cked.

And make SURE you are not using Matthew 7:6 out of context. Something sounds very OFF to me about it's use here.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blossom Leigh said:


> And make SURE you are not using Matthew 7:6 out of context. Something sounds very OFF to me about it's use here.


You mean as in equating your wife with swine off?


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

So many "experts" in here giving conflicting advice without having spent 1 day in my shoes. I came here for help and answers. Just when I seem to get some, somebody starts telling me it's wrong. Probably doesn't matter anyway. In the words of Bonnie Raitt, "I can't make you love me if you don't. You can't make your heart feel something it won't".


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Soccer,
> 
> Did you read the bit where L2 told LIT that: masturbation is the same as having an affair. It's 'cheating' on her.
> 
> ...


She cheated on him, won't have sex with him and tells him masturbation is cheating on her?

Nothing else really needs said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Cletus said:


> You mean as in equating your wife with swine off?


Would you rather I had said "I'm not going to throw good money at bad..." It's all the same. Invest, invest, invest, get no return on investment.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

LIT-- as I mentioned above, you have been so locked down that anything you do is initially going to be a mixture of true independence and passive aggresiveness.

You have got to start somewhere, so don't get too freaked out about the negative reactions you're getting.

If all you did was focus on more "couple time" you would really just be digging your hole deeper, in my opinion. You would be signaling to your wife that you need to get all of your validation from her. 

This is a transition and both of you will need to adjust. 

I think it is important to really examine why you do things. If you think you are primarily doing something to get a reaction, it is probably a bad choice. 

On the other hand, if you're doing something primarily because it is something you want to do for yourself, but you also know your wife will react to it, does that mean you shouldn't do it? I say no.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Would you rather I had said "I'm not going to throw good money at bad..." It's all the same. Invest, invest, invest, get no return on investment.


I understood your meaning - I'm decidedly not very easily offended. 

I'm also not a christian, though I was raised as one, so I understand the context of the quote. The concern is that in context it implies that the swine were unworthy of the precious enlightenment given to them - if this is how you see your wife, as unworthy of your time and effort - then there's a bigger problem.

Maybe she is unworthy, and maybe you are the model husband who does everything for her benefit. If that's the case, then no amount of 180 is going to make her a better person, will it? Is she's that fundamentally broken? Some of what you've said this this thread is enough to make me wonder. If YOU feel this way, of your own accord, then you have way more on your plate than simply restarting your drumming hobby.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Lila said:


> I'm not sure if this was directed at my last post but here's my reply if it was.....
> 
> My comment was specifically directed to the fact that you were making headway using one approach and just when things were looking up you made a sharp turn in a totally new direction. Take the advice provided to come up a plan *you can stick to*.
> 
> ...


Yes, I was referring to you and to Blossom. More to Blossom though, who had been encouraging me to pursue my music, then changes her tune on how I'm doing it. I'm not sure how making contacts with other musicians and trying to get my name out there is so destructive. 

Last weekend when my wife and I were on our weekend getaway we were walking on the Boardwalk and there was a 2 piece band playing and crushing it. I said to her "I should just start my own band. I could do as good as those guys". She didn't respond negatively. In fact, she mentioned some other friends of mine that I could have asked to join me. So if the issue of me beginning to network with other musicians comes up, I've already laid the groundwork for that conversation. It won't be a total shock to her.

As for the headway that I seemed to be making, there were flashes that gave the impression of progress, but it just resulted in me continuing to be the one putting in the effort but her continuing to be the taker. The weekend getaway wasn't a sh!t test. When I scheduled it, it was with the best motives. But it did show me that we're not really getting anywhere. 

The His Needs Her Needs book arrived in the mail yesterday and I started reading it this morning. I'm through the first 3 chapters and it reinforces the issues that I see. It CLEARLY talks about a give and take between a man meeting his wife's primary need of affection and her in turn "enthusiastically" meeting my need of sex. Not only does she show no interest in meeting that need, it's anything but enthusiastic. 

So, just to be clear, I'M LOOKING FOR ANSWERS AND TRYING EVERYTHING I CAN TO GET RESULTS. I may not do everything right, but if I continue doing what I've been doing, I'll continue getting what I've been getting. #insanity


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Cletus said:


> I understood your meaning - I'm decidedly not very easily offended.
> 
> I'm also not a christian, though I was raised as one, so I understand the context of the quote. The concern is that in context it implies that the swine were unworthy of the precious enlightenment given to them - if this is how you see your wife, as unworthy of your time and effort - then there's a bigger problem.
> 
> ...


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> It would have appeared that I had forward momentum, but I learned over the weekend that nothing had really changed. She's all about receiving, and rarely about giving. In the words of Matthew 7:6, I can't keep casting my pearls to the swine. The imbalance in this marriage is severe. I've known it for years. I just never knew how to fix it. Now I'm attempting to fix it. If she's willing to walk away, I'm good with that. My life is half over at best. I can't spend the rest of it with someone that doesn't feel as strongly for me as I do for her.


You mean after one quick dinner out and one weekend away she's supposed to completely change forever?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Yes, I was referring to you and to Blossom. More to Blossom though, who had been encouraging me to pursue my music, then changes her tune on how I'm doing it. I'm not sure how making contacts with other musicians and trying to get my name out there is so destructive.
> 
> Last weekend when my wife and I were on our weekend getaway we were walking on the Boardwalk and there was a 2 piece band playing and crushing it. I said to her "I should just start my own band. I could do as good as those guys". She didn't respond negatively. In fact, she mentioned some other friends of mine that I could have asked to join me. So if the issue of me beginning to network with other musicians comes up, I've already laid the groundwork for that conversation. It won't be a total shock to her.
> 
> ...


Then address me directly.

I'll be specific in my concern.... it's not the networking or the pursuit, but the attitude. Stay away from negative unhealthy vengeful attitudes that border on flipping her the bird. Just rebalance your life prepared to stand in your truth of your passion if she balks. 

My stance is the same on that you definitely need to rebalance and keep your passions, but do it without being a bull in a china shop yet prepared to stand firm. Confident, but not an a$$.

It was ok to be direct with me and ask for clarity.

And start practicing no longer greasing the skids with her.... God made you who you are. Quit apologizing for it.

You need ACOA, yesterday.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

soccermom2three said:


> It's unfortunate. He had such forward momentum on his other thread. This one seems to be making him go backward.


That forward momentum stopped at the beginning of this thread when he poured out his heart to her and she responded with "that's a lot to process". Later she told him that she had turned off the "desire him" switch when they were married.

When an unbalanced relationship is all the husband's way (as yours seems to have been) then the proper advice *is* more quality time together, more romance, help with the housework etc. When it's unbalanced in favor of the wife, then I think the route being recommended here by MEM et al is called for.

However, I *am* afraid that LuvIsTuff is in danger of going off the rails here.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I am also advocating for Luv to destabilize things. But remember, brother. If you are doing it for you, you are on the right path. If you are doing it for, because or to spite her, chances are there is resentment involved and will likely lead to a worse situation.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

I'm outa here. I'll figure things out on my own.


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## john1068 (Nov 12, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> Also, when in doubt just say nothing and walk away. that way you remove the temptation to respond altogether. this also allows whatever insult she tossed to just stand in the air so it is unavoidably obvious who is out of control.


Of course what obviously could work well would be using her preferred answer, "that's a lot to process, I'll get back to you".


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

That scripture was in the context regarding false teachers and their ilk, btw... thus would not apply here unless she is following false teachers.

OP I just hope the best for you. Sad you are leaving...


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

Well, this thing went off the rails.

For what it's worth, OP, here's my $.02 - 

There are several different camps of belief around here and threads like yours have the potential to highlight the divisions between those camps - old arguments, which really are friendly disputes, get aired and re-aired in new threads. Unfortunately, that means you - the person who sincerely is looking for impartial advice - can feel like no matter what you do, all quarters shout about how wrong you are.

One camp here is not fond of the soft-180 approach to rediscovering healthy individualism within the context of marriage. The people who feel this way are entitled to their opinions, and can and do intelligently articulate their position. I, for one, tend to disagree with them in several important respects, but I do think I understand where they are coming from. I think it bothers them that your decision to attempt this course has the potential to, and often does, destabilize the family. There's more to it of course, but I believe that's the crux of it. Again, they are smart people who can speak for themselves.

I am quite fond of the soft-180. As perhaps you know by now, I'm biased. I did it and am happy with the outcome so far. If it works for you, great. If not, so be it.

Now, as far as what make this thread go sideways, my view is that some of the changes you made were more about vengeance than they were about growing as an individual. Sending out friend requests to women on Facebook is an example, especially when coupled with the way you described what you did and how you were anticipating future fireworks at home because of it.

Merits of soft-180 aside, actions like that, which reasonably can be interpreted as intended to provoke negative reaction in your spouse, are not and never will be part of the program myself and others around here advocate.

With that said, I think you should get cut a little bit of slack. You've made mistakes over the years and that has led you to the present circumstance. In fairness, I think you've now made a few mistakes in the opposite direction too. It happens.

This place can seem harsh at times. You can feel like a target. You can think certain posters have a target on you. Trust me, I know.

It's obviously up to you if you want to take your ball and go home. In my not so humble opinion, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you sucked it up a bit and let the anonymous internet posters help you thicken your skin.

I think their desire to help comes from the right place. You may not want to hear it, but it won't hurt you and, who knows, it may even help - 

Best of luck to you -


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

LiT... I hope you don't leave. I think you're doing a good job, all things considered. You've made a LOT of forward movement since your first post, when you were practically bending over backwards to try to convince your wife to "join" you in your marriage. Now, you have found your voice and are reconnecting with your SELF again, which is the man she fell in love with in the first place.

I got clobbered in my own thread too (I think we all do to some extent). Just do what I did, appreciate the posts that resonate with you and skip right over the ones that you don't care to read. And don't take any of it too personally.

I hope you stick around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Neuklas, I have a question and I promise I'm not trying to be snarky.

Do you use dread in its entirety to scare your wife into having sex with you or do you also "date" your wife? Do you spend more than an hour a week with your wife? Take her out so she can feel like a woman again and not be a mom all the time? I'm just curious because the OP stated that he spends about an hour a week with his wife. Do you think that's enough to create any kind of intimacy or responsive desire in a wife? He is pretty much already doing a 180. I not sure continuing that really helps him.


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> Neuklas, I have a question and I promise I'm not trying to be snarky.
> 
> Do you use dread in its entirety to scare your wife into having sex with you or do you also "date" your wife? Do you spend more than an hour a week with your wife? Take her out so she can feel like a woman again and not be a mom all the time? I'm just curious because the OP stated that he spends about an hour a week with his wife. Do you think that's enough to create any kind of intimacy or responsive desire in a wife? He is pretty much already doing a 180. I not sure continuing that really helps him.


My story is pretty well documented if you'd like to read it. There were ups and downs, as there always are.

To answer your question, I never tried to or intended to create fear or disquiet in her as a means to my own ends. A proper 180 as I use the term is this context has nothing whatsoever to do with coercing third party behavior. Nothing. In fact, that purpose is antithetical to 180 as I use the term. 

I date her, often. I strive to ensure her access to alone time as much as my own. 

There is a difference between 180 for individual improvement and abandonment. Of a legitimate journey of the self and spite. Of a forthright and honesty assertion of self worth and an intention to inflict pain. Of rebalancing unfair subservience and exacting retribution. I don't advocate any of the latter. Never have and never will. 

I don't have a full command of the facts surrounding LITs situation and I have not read any of his other threads. If he is doing any of the latter, I would be the first to tell him he is wrong. If, however, he wants help or advice about the former, I would stand in his corner if he wanted that. 

Hope that answers your questions.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> Neuklas, I have a question and I promise I'm not trying to be snarky.
> 
> Do you use dread in its entirety to scare your wife into having sex with you or do you also "date" your wife? Do you spend more than an hour a week with your wife? Take her out so she can feel like a woman again and not be a mom all the time? I'm just curious because the OP stated that he spends about an hour a week with his wife. Do you think that's enough to create any kind of intimacy or responsive desire in a wife? He is pretty much already doing a 180. I not sure continuing that really helps him.


Very good question. 

We only have neuklas's account of how he approached his marriage. One might ask your question another way: did neuklas even make himself wonder about himself. I got the sense that he did feel that he pushed hard so that he ceased to reward negative behavior. By that I mean his wife taking him for granted.

This change did make her feel insecure. She consciously or unconsciously initiated sex/sought affirmation. Was she frightened or spooked by the new neuklas? I think his intention was to let her into a place of intimacy but he also felt that practicing the 180 had made him cooler towards her.

Having sex restored them to each other. They rediscovered something that had been missing from their relationship for a long period. Neuklas's wife now feels she can reach him by engaging him with affection. I doubt he just wants sex. He also wants to spend time with her talking. But he is wary of being friend zoned by his own wife which was the pattern of several years.

The challenge of neuklas's approach is that it takes discipline. When a husband has become a nice guy and the couple are in their late 40s early 50s, there is a huge hill to climb to gain respect. When there the entire relationship has become asexual there is real difficulty.

Repeated on and off 180 attempts become just a pattern of sulkiness on the part of rejected spouse. 

There are several threads going right now that are not going as well as OP's. It is really painful to read about acceptance of castration because the cost of divorce would be too high. To me castration is too great a sacrifice to preserve a bad marriage.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is pretty interesting.

Never did the math before but M2 and I spend 15-20 hours a week one on one. It was less when the kids were younger - but we always spent a lot of time together. 

While 1/3 of it is watching tv, we are typically lying in a tangle. 

And sure - I take M2 on a date about once a week. 

But that all sort of naturally happens when your spouse is an excellent companion. 




soccermom2three said:


> Neuklas, I have a question and I promise I'm not trying to be snarky.
> 
> Do you use dread in its entirety to scare your wife into having sex with you or do you also "date" your wife? Do you spend more than an hour a week with your wife? Take her out so she can feel like a woman again and not be a mom all the time? I'm just curious because the OP stated that he spends about an hour a week with his wife. Do you think that's enough to create any kind of intimacy or responsive desire in a wife? He is pretty much already doing a 180. I not sure continuing that really helps him.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

soccermom2three said:


> Neuklas, I have a question and I promise I'm not trying to be snarky.
> 
> Do you use dread in its entirety to scare your wife into having sex with you or do you also "date" your wife? Do you spend more than an hour a week with your wife? Take her out so she can feel like a woman again and not be a mom all the time? I'm just curious because the OP stated that he spends about an hour a week with his wife. Do you think that's enough to create any kind of intimacy or responsive desire in a wife? He is pretty much already doing a 180. I not sure continuing that really helps him.


SoccerMom,

I think you've got an overly negative interpretation of what's been recommended here. It's not about scaring anyone and it's not only about sex. If you'd read Nueklas' thread you'd see that he was in no way the bad guy in his marriage. His wife's happiness was a priority for him. It's just that his happiness no longer seemed to be a priority for his wife.

If a guy showed up in "Sex in Marriage" saying that he rarely saw his wife because he was out with the guys all the time, never helped with the kids or the household chores, basically ignored her and then complained that she turned him down for sex, I haven't seen the male poster yet that wouldn't say "stop being an a$$hole".

When a soft 180 is being recommended, it's almost always a case of a nice guy devoted to his wife's happiness who's feelings and needs are being ignored in return. In that case changing the focus to his own happiness and growth, while still being polite and calm, no longer trying to jump through hoops to please her and no longer catering to the wife's every whim is often the answer. If the marriage doesn't improve at least he'll be in better shape for his next relationship.

If a wife doesn't respond to a husbands needs when she is secure and does respond when she is insecure, that's on the wife. But that's not the main motivation behind the soft 180. It's self improvement and self respect.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Thank you Neuklas for answering my question. That was the point I was trying to make. While you have your own interests (which I totally agree with) you still show interest in your wife. 

When I lost sexual interest in my husband it was within the first 5 years of marriage, before kids! He did what he wanted, when he wanted. Came to bed late at night, wanting sex when there had be hardly any interaction during the day. We spent hardly any time together. We were like room mates. It was like once we got married, he figured, "Well, now I have her in my bed every night so I don't have to do any of the stuff we did together before we got married". I was so sad and cried myself to sleep. I was alone and lonely. Our sex life really suffered. 

So, when I see it being suggested that a man detach even more from a relationship where he spends only an hour a week one on one with his wife, all I see it do is backfiring on him. Then he's getting internet high fives for friending women on FB, that's just immature. I really think there needs to be a balance. Both husband and wife should have their hobbies/friends but also carve out time to spend time together.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Your secret key here is accepting the small stuff as good enough expressions of love, laying down the manipulative transactional thinking and watch what happens. She will feel less rejected and will seek you out. When you conditionally accept the small stuff to her its rejection of all of it, including her. That feeling isnt conducive to feeling like having sex.


That to me is completely psychotic. 

I will never understand a woman's thinking. Never. 

Back to Mars....


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> Ringo is a billionaire. Not sure how Peart pulled that off. LOL It's true though. Chicks don't dig the drummer.


That's B.S.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> It would have appeared that I had forward momentum, but I learned over the weekend that nothing had really changed. She's all about receiving, and rarely about giving. In the words of Matthew 7:6, I can't keep casting my pearls to the swine. The imbalance in this marriage is severe. I've known it for years. I just never knew how to fix it. Now I'm attempting to fix it. If she's willing to walk away, I'm good with that. My life is half over at best. I can't spend the rest of it with someone that doesn't feel as strongly for me as I do for her.


Get busy living, or get busy dying.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

LuvIsTuff said:


> I'm outa here. I'll figure things out on my own.


Good luck brother. P.M. me if you want some lucid advice.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> That to me is completely psychotic.
> 
> I will never understand a woman's thinking. Never.
> 
> Back to Mars....


I watched it work wonders with my own eyes with my husband... so be confused all you want Babe... I speak by experience.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> She cheated on him, won't have sex with him and tells him masturbation is cheating on her?
> 
> Nothing else really needs said.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Seriously dude. You should have went a little more nuclear on D-day. I think a lot of the damage in your relationship is because her affair was rug swept.

I really cannot comprehend you, not only swallowing her shyt, but then continuing to put up with her bullshyt for years.

She very obviously doesn't care about you or her marriage.

Should've done something hard a long time ago. She apparently has never had repercussions for banging her coworker and kept working with him? You don't even know the extent of her affair.

Your marriage has been "done" for a very long time. You should have looked at the pathetic state of things when she, finally, fessed up to what she was willing to divulge.

Open your eyes now. 

This woman should have bent over backwards and turned into your sexual acrobat and otherwise good wife if she wanted to keep you after violating your union.

WOW!...
Just...WOW!
_Posted via Mobile Device_

I would agree with you trying your everything to be a better husband after she cheated. A BS does need to do their part to contribute to a good marriage but IT TAKES TWO!!!


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