# Advice about rebuilding marriage and ANY physical intimacy



## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

I usually post in the Guys Forum, sometimes just to vent, but this time I am looking for advice from both men and women.

Long history - married 16 years, dated 2.5 years before that. We are back in marriage counseling. Previously it was traditional "talk it out" counseling that we obtained through our insurance (paid for given diagnosis for depression in both of us, which we both sought in part to get insurance to pay for the MC). Things were better for a year or so. Now we are paying out of pocket for a "couples" only marriage counselor, who specializes in Emotionally Focused Therapy and EMDR. We are still in the de-escalating phase. We have not had sex in about 7 weeks. Therapy started about 4-5 weeks ago. 

We've had lots of fights about lots of issues, including sex and physical affection in general. Lots of cycles where I initiated sex or physical affection, she responded in ways not up to my expectations, we would fight, one or both of us would put up a wall, and the cycle would continue. [The story is very complicated and yes, I've examined the HUGE part I've played in this, which I can get to in reply if necessary - so if you feel I'm blaming my wife, I know there's plenty to be pointed at me]. One of our problems has been what my wife (somewhat) acknowledges is due to her upbringing. Her mother was not physically affectionate with her, her dad or siblings. My wife sometimes will reach out to me (it takes a conscious effort on her part) to hold my hand, but this is rare and has NEVER initiated any type of sexual intimacy (nor, as she has told me, did she with her two college boy friends). After much counseling, I have given up on that part - she just won't initiate or take any steps to change that and I can't change her - just my attitude towards it (which I admit still needs work).

Admittedly, we are dealing with lots of issues in counseling - both of us feelings secure in the relationship (i.e., attachment issues), communication, control issues, parenting styles, etc. Things started off well in the new therapy. No sex, but some progress and my wife said that "God wants this marriage to work." (A very good sign). We had a long-planned extended family vacation. The MC counselor, sensing that tension could breakout during our trip, announced at the end of the session that "I think you should take sex off the table during the vacation." I was irritated by this and said so. I also said, fine, but it would be great if my wife showed some other type of physical affection, like coming up to me and giving me a big kiss or big hug while we are on vacation. My wife got very upset about this and said something like "Can't I demonstrate my affection, by just being nice to be around, having a good family time, etc." This caused me to get upset and say, I was hoping that her affection would be something that only a wife would do to her husband. We de-escalated somewhat in MC, but fought that night...

Move forward a couple of weeks. Last session, it went ok, and again, in the last five minutes of the session, the MC said "I still think sex should be off the table." My wife quickly agreed. I got irritated and said "I thought this hiatus was just "for the vacation."" The MC said she did say that, but thought it best to make us both feel secure in the relationship - that if we had sex, it may make matters worse, because I am looking for a physical connection, my wife is not emotionally ready for sex and I would actually feel worse, not better after sex because there would be no bond. Ok, part of me gets that, but I was still irritated. 

Part of my irritation is the cost of MC. For a 1.5 hour couples session it's just over $200. We've done 3 couples and 2 individual sessions for about $1,000 total. My wife and I are in agreement that we don't want to spend a fortune on MC and are hopeful we can see significant progress in 10 additional sessions and take a break from MC. We have asked the MC to discuss a road map for MC with us.

Since last week's session, I have admittedly been a little batty without sex and worried about the cost of MC (made worse due to unexpected $1,600 appliance expense on Saturday). I have tried to discuss with my wife her priorities for MC and she's either been very vague or flatly refused (instead saying - "after all our fights, you should know what I need. I know what you care about, it's sex.")
We still sleep in the same bed (which has not always been the case during rough patches). This morning, I cuddled up next to her and she was basically frozen still, asleep at times, but waking up occasionally to ask the time, remind me to wake up our son, etc.) This is a common problem - no reciprocal cuddling with her. I explained to her that I understand the hiatus from sex, but it would help me cope if she initiated (or at least reciprocated) other types of touching (e.g., cuddling with me). She ignored me and started getting ready. An argument started soon, where she said I was only interested in sex. We tabled the discussion quickly (part of our EFT training paying off) when it started to escalate.

Today, we have another MC session. I spoke with her on the phone and asked to talk about this morning. She eventually said that she didn't want to cuddle or initiate any physical contact because she knows I'm just interested in sex and that I never agreed with the MC recommendation for a haitus. I told her that was true and I understand her feelings. I proposed that I SWEAR that I will not have sex with her even if she asked for the next 7 days, and in return that she initiate non-sexual physical touching. She got very upset at this proposal and went off on me that we have lots of problems and I am only focused on one. I told her that I am focused on ALL of them, but that I (like most guys) equate emotional closeness with physical closeness. She then went off about how it then must all be her fault, etc. and said we should table it until tonight's MC session.

I'm at my wits' end. I do not want to go through months of expensive MC to become more highly functional housemates. I understand we have lots of issues, which I am FULLY invested in dealing with. How do I make sure we address our physical intimacy issues, without causing her to freak out and destroy our MC efforts, which could ultimately lead to divorce, or YEARS of additional MC?

Thanks for those patient enough to read this rambling email!


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

My therapist also suggested taking sex off the table as it was causing me too much anxiety while trying to reconcile with my husband. However in my case I still would show physical affection to my husband when I felt it was warranted.
There are a lot of couples therapists out there. You should check into some other ones if this one isnt addressing your needs properly. It seems the physical connection you are seeking is an immediate problem and the therapist should be dealing with it in a way that doesn't make you feel like your needs are secondary. 
If your wife feels emotionally disconnected from you, has a lot of resentment, and isn't a physically affectionate person to begin with, constantly asking for it will just add to the problem. She doesn't sound like she is "in love" with you from what you wrote. She needs to find romantic love for you first and that takes a long time from what I hear. 
You may just have to be patient while other issues are worked out in your marriage and the walls between you have broken down before you can expect her to feel comfortable showing physical affectionate. 
Your therapist really should address this issue and help you in dealing with this. I don't know that your therapist is worth the money in this case.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

@Kermitty.

Thank you for your response. I hear you. Patience is a virtue. And I get the "in love" with me possibility and I'm committed to try once again to fix our marriage, if nothing more than I honestly believe we can, our kids will be better off if we do fix it (showing them that good things take hard work) and, from a purely practical standpoint, a divorce would be economically disastrous to all involved. But I've worked hard over the last couple of years, to get myself mentally ok with the idea of not being married to my wife, if we really can't make it work. 

I have seriously considered switching MCs. (We switched from one recently after a couple of visits because he turned out to be a bit of a nut). However, my wife is of the opinion that going to yet another MC and starting over would be too emotionally draining. This MC comes highly recommended, has a lot of compassion and truly seems to be treating the marriage as the client, rather than either one of us. (For now at least, that's what I want).

It's VERY frustrating for me. I know I have lots of issues (many of which I have addressed and continue to address), and our previous MC has focused primarily (from my perspective) on "fixing" me. I try to remind myself that I am better off for it, but I just don't know if I have the stomach for another long, and expensive, round of just "fix me" and be patient...


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

I hear ya. I would like things to work out for us to set an example for my son as well. As you know though, two happy parents separated is better than two angry parents together. That's what they say anyway. 
If in the end this MC doesn't get you to the point you want to be, I would think the emotional drain would be worth the sacrifice if it means a happy healthy marriage. We have seen four in the last three years. It is rather annoying how different they all are and how their methods differ.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Our last MC (found through our insurance) appeared ok on the surface. Previously I had found our MCs. This time, I was reluctant to go back due to the "fix me only" issue and told my wife she could pick this time. After we went to him a couple of times, he just seemed "odd" and I Googled the crap out of him. It turned out he was previously a Wiccan and currently belonged to a cultish group that followed Egyptian gods and attempted to incorporate "magic" into his therapy. This was not disclosed in his brochure.


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## LoriC (Feb 18, 2013)

What could've happened in your wife's past to have made her so cold? I find it very odd that she won't even hold your hand or hug you. Was she like this before married her?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

So the MC does not want your wife to meet your emotional needs in the marriage. This is because you are not meeting hers....BUT have either of these two people given you any insight into what they are?


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

LoriC said:


> What could've happened in your wife's past to have made her so cold? I find it very odd that she won't even hold your hand or hug you. Was she like this before married her?


I have wasted WAY too many hours thinking and analyzing that question. She is Korean. Her Mom was 4 when the Korean War broke out and lived in Seoul. My wife also had a younger sister die (she apparently fell from a kitchen counter as an infant). My wife was about 3 when this happened. I think my MIL has PTSD and it's never been treated. I have NEVER seen MIL show physical affection to her husband - though I believe he loves him. 
Kids of parents with untreated PTSD can have issues. Fortunately, my wife is very physically affectionate to the kids. She does have a quick temper though and will yell and criticize. (She recognizes this and is much better as it relates to the kids). She had some signs of this with me but it got much worse after our kids were born. I made matters worse by criticizing her about it, both inside and outside the bedroom. Sometimes my frustration was anger and sometimes passive aggressive responses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Hicks said:


> So the MC does not want your wife to meet your emotional needs in the marriage. This is because you are not meeting hers....BUT have either of these two people given you any insight into what they are?


Yes. LOTS of needs on her end, which I've tried very hard to meet. Right now the focus in our new EFT (attachment) therapy is making us both feel secure in the relationship and trying to understand both our own and our spouses reasons for certain behavior. EMDR will also help us both get over past traumas. My attachment problems relate mostly someone I dated for 4+ years that I married at 22 that ended abruptly and in a bad way (another guy). 

So were both pretty messed up (despite outward appearances)... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LoriC (Feb 18, 2013)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> I have wasted WAY too many hours thinking and analyzing that question. She is Korean. Her Mom was 4 when the Korean War broke out and lived in Seoul. My wife also had a younger sister die (she apparently fell from a kitchen counter as an infant). My wife was about 3 when this happened. I think my MIL has PTSD and it's never been treated. I have NEVER seen MIL show physical affection to her husband - though I believe he loves him.
> Kids of parents with untreated PTSD can have issues. Fortunately, my wife is very physically affectionate to the kids. She does have a quick temper though and will yell and criticize. (She recognizes this and is much better as it relates to the kids). She had some signs of this with me but it got much worse after our kids were born. I made matters worse by criticizing her about it, both inside and outside the bedroom. Sometimes my frustration was anger and sometimes passive aggressive responses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she can be affectionate with the kids then she is showing she is capable of showing it to you. Something else is going on. Have you ruled out affair? I mean completely ruled it out? And don't say " you know she wouldn't do that". 

Loving to the kids but not you? Hmm ...


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Unless youve done something truly horrible to her, there is no reason an adult woman can't at the very least cuddle or hold hands with her husband. This is ridiculous behavior and shows a lack of effort on her part. She shouldnt need an MC to tell her to do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

I'm not in MC but I can see some of the same themes. Actually I'm glad I'm not in MC as this is between my wife and me.

Don't need any third party telling us what we should do. What we should do us have a loving sexual marriage... THATS IT! That is the message.

SIMPLIFY IT.

My wife also will accuse me of *only thinking of sex* in a sexless marriage... total BS

I occasionally think of our "unacceptable marital sexless situation".... big difference.

I think she would like me to turn off my sex drive so she can eventually fall back in love and get horny for me.. guess what that is IMPOSSIBLE and SEX will increase the bonding.
SEX is a BASIC marital NEED. It is NOT off the table.

Your MC is stupid. Hold your wife accountable... give her space but for heavens sake keep the pressure on her to resolve this..... or leave.

Your wife like mine does NOT want to have sex with you...now.

That is HER problem she is married to YOU.
She can change that view on a dime its all in her head.
Work the issue and love your wife... no whining.

My best advice DITCH THE MC they are extending your crisis.

You need to take charge. Always love your wife but hold her accountable for the unacceptable situation.

Stop fighting... give her space and pick your spots for focused communication.
Set a time frame for resolution and let that guide you.... work the issue.

Have a plan... you wife will respond in time. Be patient but be steadfast in your message to her. Most of the time you do nothing but love your wife.... you will get paid in spades later.

its a marathon not a sprint. Win the marathon.


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## frozen (Mar 5, 2012)

My wife and I were in counseling for a year with an EFT therapist. We also had the opportunity to be the subjects in a training session for EFT therapists with one of the leading teachers who was personally trained by Sue Johnson.


Our issues are deep, and it took a lot of time to really flesh out the attachment issues we both have. Even when we recognized the injury, we just didn't understand the depths of the hurt and how they spilled over into other aspects of our lives. 

First I want to state that I don't think you really have identified all of the attachment injuries you both have suffered. This is the part the counselor it's going to be most helpful with. Use your time wisely and don't bicker in session. Hopefully the therapist will help with getting your wife to uncover the roots of her inability to accept a physical connection with you.

Read John Gottman 7 secrets book. Attend a weekend with Hedy and Yumi - , they do an imago retreat that may cut through all the crap and I think is the type of therapy your wife will respond to as it is extremely non threatening. It will be more productive and save you money. 

Secondly, from what little I could glean from your post I think you both are really stuck in the roles you fulfill in each other's lives. By that I mean what you expect your wife to be to you and vice versa. You are constantly being expected to be like her father, which is to say t he pattern is you will accept being treated the way her father did by her mother. Stop setting yourself as a father first, and your wife as a mother first. You are people with needs, hopes, and deserve to not be objectified. You are not a means too an end. Forget the vacation with all of its expectations and participate in a retreat or conference as I described above. 

Can you elaborate on your attachment injuries? These are the ones that most affect us and which we have to learn to cope with. They occur in childhood and define how we see and relate with others. Injuries occurring in adulthood are much easier to overcome so long as they don't cut us where our childhood injuries are.

Have you discussed the financial concerns with your therapist? You must bring it up because without at least discussing it you are withholding information that can affect the outcomes of your therapy. Financial concerns can and do create fears within therapy. 

Hint: Bring up the topic via email or phone so you aren't paying for the response ;-).


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

A sex hiatus can be a very good thing, if you have a definite goal and intent in mind.

The problem is, you need sex and physicial affection to feel loved by your wife. That is clear to you. In fact, would you say that if you had a fulfilling sex life (if only your wife would give you more sex), you would have a fulfilling marriage overall?

What you have to realize is that a man approaching a woman for sex does not make a woman feel loved, special or happy. It makes her feel used and disrespected. Because all men and boys she ever knew, wanted to "get in her pants"... Men who want sex are not differentiated from each other. To you, a man, a women who gives you sex IS differentiated from all other women... Do you see this?

So, the goal of your sex hiatus is so that you can make your wife feel loved, happy, and fulfilled. To show her that she is not your sex doll, and that you love her for who she is as a person. Taking sex off the table allows you to do this (opens the door)... It is not the only thing you must do.

Now, if you know that sex would make your marriage and life more fulfilling, and you know that sex is not going to make your wife's life more fulfillling, you have to figure out what will make your wife's life more fulfilling. These are her emotional needs. In counseling, you are problably getting a laundry list of "emotional needs" which are actually impossible tasks. I highly recommend your read a book called the Five Love Languages... this will help you understand some possible emotional needs your wife has. Meet her needs on purpose, make her feel loved for who she is as a person, make her feel confident that you approve of her and her mothering skills... These are the Must Do's for her to feel safe enough to be sexual with you.

The counseling to me is not a great idea. It puts labels and reasons in everyone's head why you are both too screwed up to be good marital partners... But virutally all marriage problems are the same. It's that each person needs to meet the emotional needs of the other. And, in a standstill where your marriage is, ONE OF THE PEOPLE has to take the risk to "love" the other person for a period of time knowing that they are not going to be "loved" back. What I mean is to take a risk of meeting her needs while not getting your needs met in return for a finite period of time.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Hicks said:


> A sex hiatus can be a very good thing, if you have a definite goal and intent in mind.
> 
> The problem is, you need sex and physicial affection to feel loved by your wife. That is clear to you. In fact, would you say that if you had a fulfilling sex life (if only your wife would give you more sex), you would have a fulfilling marriage overall?
> 
> ...


I agree a sex hiatus can be beneficial... it helped me and my wife connect and break the initial ice block. She did respond by being much nicer. That still continues to this day. It made a huge difference and she gained respect for me in offering it.

Difference is I SUGGESTED IT (She loved the idea) not some therapist went 4 months into a 6 month hiatus.

I also ENDED it when she screwed up and ignored me on the dance floor.... that is when I specified our new sexlife too to her one that was a compromise between our drive levels, with variety. This will be our norm soon. My message never wavered after that point.... we will beat sexless AND create a sexual marriage out of it with regular varietal sex. That is the only outcome I will accept... will not put up with a multi-year sexless period without FIXING our sex life PERMANENTLY.

She started it.. I am ending it.
I love my wife, she loves me...this will work.

Actions really only count if they come from the heart and not some therapist.
MC is not the answer. Targeted action is. Patience and loving action is.

Stand up to your wife!

Think of sexless/affection-less as a temporary unacceptable state.

Get her to acknowledge the ISSUE, that it needs SOLVED , in a short time frame.

From there it simply is a finite time frame.... still might take some time but it will happen one day.

This is a long process... good things are worth the wait.
There is no quick fix.
There is only the correct outcome.

My plan will be posted once my wife and I fully resolve our sex-life to avoid naysayers who don't believe it will work... I know it will. I live it.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

LoriC said:


> Have you ruled out affair? I mean completely ruled it out? And don't say " you know she wouldn't do that".


No affair going on here. And, no I'm not blind. I've done LOTS of due diligence on this and I'm confident that is not going on.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

jd08 said:


> Unless youve done something truly horrible to her, there is no reason an adult woman can't at the very least cuddle or hold hands with her husband. This is ridiculous behavior and shows a lack of effort on her part. She shouldnt need an MC to tell her to do that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed! A lot of her issue are misdirected anger that I keeping poking at and won't let heal. We had a much better MC session last night. She's now back to receiving a nice kiss from me and a lot of the anger is dropping quickly.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Stop fighting... give her space and pick your spots for focused communication.
> Set a time frame for resolution and let that guide you.... work the issue.
> 
> Have a plan... you wife will respond in time. Be patient but be steadfast in your message to her. Most of the time you do nothing but love your wife.... you will get paid in spades later.
> ...


Agree about giving her space and stop fighting. Over the last few weeks, just as she seems to be getting over it, my expectations for sex go up and then when it does not happen I go a little batty and start a fight, become passive aggressive, etc. 

Having been to MC before, I can already tell the MC is re-directing us towards sex in the near term. I just need to back off, not be moody around her and the kids for a couple of weeks and restore some sanity to the house. She still won't initiate ANYTHING (and expecting or demanding that will only get us back to where we are now), but I suspect she will be receptive in the relatively near future.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

frozen said:


> Our issues are deep, and it took a lot of time to really flesh out the attachment issues we both have. Even when we recognized the injury, we just didn't understand the depths of the hurt and how they spilled over into other aspects of our lives.
> 
> First I want to state that I don't think you really have identified all of the attachment injuries you both have suffered. This is the part the counselor it's going to be most helpful with. Use your time wisely and don't bicker in session. Hopefully the therapist will help with getting your wife to uncover the roots of her inability to accept a physical connection with you.
> 
> ...


Thank you for a great response. Your point about the roles we play in each others life is very astute. Her father is the affectionate one of her parents. He also is a very good financial provider and showered my wife with money (paying for 2 different 4 year bachelor degrees, several new cars at the same time, all credit card expenses, etc.). She wanted for nothing. I make a good living, but not seven figures like he used to. I think a lot of our issues came up when my wife became a stay at home Mom 13 years ago. I became the father figure and she became more like her Mom. Me pointing that out and comparing her to her Mom was my usual attack move when I felt ignored or unloved. You can guess how well that turned out...

I brought up the cost concerns with the MC via email before the last session and we all discussed it last night in session. The MC understands and is working with us as efficiently as she can but is spending a lot of time de-escalating us and building trust with her. 

My attachment issues run deep. I was very close to my ex's mother (at times closer to her than my own mom). I've come to realize that when we brokeup very quickly, I lost not only my ex, but a mother as well. I'm dealing with that in EMDR.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> My wife got very upset about this and said something like "Can't I demonstrate my affection, by just being nice to be around, having a good family time, etc." This caused me to get upset and say, I was hoping that her affection would be something that only a wife would do to her husband. We de-escalated somewhat in MC, but fought that night...


What was her response to this point? How does she see being married as any different from just being a good friend? Because what she seems to offering at this point.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> Agree about giving her space and stop fighting. Over the last few weeks, just as she seems to be getting over it, my expectations for sex go up and then when it does not happen I go a little batty and start a fight, become passive aggressive, etc.


I think it's good you see this behavior in yourself and can see how it affects your progress. My husband would do the same and it made me anxious to show any physical affection for fear he would see it as an invite for sex and then get angry when I couldn't. It would easily erase any progress we made in the earlier weeks. Once he stopped that behavior I became more comfortable showing physical affection. 

I have to reiterate that I'm not generally a physically affectionate person. A mom can be physically affectionate with her kids and not with other adults because your relationship with your kids is different than your relationship with your spouse. 

Good thing you got away from that first therapist. Hopefully you can work out the financial issue with this one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> What was her response to this point? How does she see being married as any different from just being a good friend? Because what she seems to offering at this point.


No articulated response at the time, just anger and frustration. 

Last night her tone changed somewhat in MC. She talked about physical affection only being "part of a marriage"... This led to me saying that is what I've been saying, which led us into how we both tend to misunderstand what each other is saying/feeling which led us to discuss in great detail the stages of EFT we will go through, with the ultimate goal of intimacy on ALL levels being our target. I am finally starting to see that part of our dynamic is misinterpreting each other and then fighting over what was actually said, rather than addressing real issues. My wife is also starting her own EMDR with the MC today, which takes the pressure off of me to be the only one being "fixed." This was definitely our most productive session.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> I think it's good you see this behavior in yourself and can see how it affects your progress. My husband would do the same and it made me anxious to show any physical affection for fear he would see it as an invite for sex and then get angry when I couldn't. It would easily erase any progress we made in the earlier weeks. Once he stopped that behavior I became more comfortable showing physical affection.
> 
> I have to reiterate that I'm not generally a physically affectionate person. A mom can be physically affectionate with her kids and not with other adults because your relationship with your kids is different than your relationship with your spouse.
> 
> ...


Re finances, we've reached an understanding that the MC's goal is to help our marriage heal as quickly as possible and not "fix" each of us and EVERY childhood trauma. She was very straightforward with us, explaining why EFT may take a little longer with us than couples who have not been to MC before, how EMDR will help alleviate some of the tension (but won't address every issue) and provided a written plan of action and goals. This helped me a lot and reduced the anxiety I have been feeling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Dadof3greatkids; said:


> I am finally starting to see that part of our dynamic is misinterpreting each other and then fighting over what was actually said, rather than addressing real issues._Posted via Mobile Device_


That was a big issue my husband and I had. We still run into it on occasion. Sometimes we send each other emails when discussing an issue just to keep the miscommunication and tempers in check. It helps when you repeat what the other person said back to them before stating your point. 
Sounds like you are making good progress. Hope a fulfilling sex life isn't too far behind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> That was a big issue my husband and I had. We still run into it on occasion. Sometimes we send each other emails when discussing an issue just to keep the miscommunication and tempers in check. It helps when you repeat what the other person said back to them before stating your point.
> Sounds like you are making good progress. Hope a fulfilling sex life isn't too far behind.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks! Although some times we reach an impasse that way when someone says/writes something out of anger/frustration. With my wife, when I try to "win" an argument using her own words as ammunition, she just gets more frustrated and angry, builds up a wall and is uncompromising. The better course of action seems to be to share how I feel about what she is saying and give her an opportunity to rephrase it. Yes, there's less accountability, but we've inflicted too much damage holding each other "accountable" for what we have said over the years.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Have you read Passionate Marriage or anything by Schnarch?


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Have you read Passionate Marriage or anything by Schnarch?


I've read tons of books, including the 5 Love Languages and others. It's a mixed bag for me. When I am in the perfect state of mind and REALLY focused, they are helpful. However, I find myself at times reading those types of books and quickly becoming bitter, because I've tried to do many of the things they say and feel bitter because my wife won't read the same books. Part of the problem is just the emotional drain of years of problems on both our parts and my inconsistent and sometimes erratic behavior. She does not feel safe with me. I am dealing with that on my own and in MC.

With the new expensive MC, my wife (who like me HATES "wasting" money) overcome her reluctance to read anything and read Hold Me Tightly, which was written by the person who developed EFT. She only got about halfway through but reading about this made us hopeful. Her initial reaction to what she read also caused me some concern, going back to the roles we play as "mother" and "father" because the first thing she talked about was her concern that our parenting styles have impacted our kids attachment issues. That's a good thing for her to see, but it draws attention to the fact that our roles (right now) are more kid-based rather than relationship-based. Again, I think it's somewhat of a cultural thing - family means everything to her. A good thing, but I am wary of "just" becoming well-adjusted parents, at the expense of being a romantic couple. I also realize her dedication to family has kept her in this relationship a lot longer than she might otherwise have been (for good or bad...)


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I'm not in MC but I can see some of the same themes. Actually I'm glad I'm not in MC as this is between my wife and me.
> 
> Don't need any third party telling us what we should do. What we should do us have a loving sexual marriage... THATS IT! That is the message.
> 
> ...


Some wives in this situation will tell you that.

It's all BS. It's a way of getting you to back off so they can continue to deliberately avoid meeting your needs.

I'm in your boat but I got the better part of a year without sex.

I won't see a MC because I don't trust them and your story doesn't help in that regard.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

frozen said:


> My wife and I were in counseling for a year with an EFT therapist. We also had the opportunity to be the subjects in a training session for EFT therapists with one of the leading teachers who was personally trained by Sue Johnson.
> 
> ...
> 
> Read John Gottman 7 secrets book. Attend a weekend with Hedy and Yumi - , they do an imago retreat that may cut through all the crap and I think is the type of therapy your wife will respond to as it is extremely non threatening. It will be more productive and save you money.


@ Frozen. I am interested to know your thoughts about how Gottman's approach compares to the EFT approach of Sue Johnson. Gottman's approach on its face seems quite different.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

This is more to vent than to seek advice. Our MC has already given us advice, which I am following.

Another BIG set back for us and now my wife is REALLY angry and won't talk to me. It got so bad, I got out of the house this weekend just to let things cool off.

After my last post, my wife saw our MC for an individual session to begin her EMDR therapy. The first step is to discuss her history. Apparently, most of this involved discussing the severe trauma I have inflicted in her over the years regarding our sex life. We both have concerns over how much MC is costing us. On the day of her session she told me it went well. However, the next day, she came to me and said she really likes our MC, but thinks it is going to take a REALLY long time to work through her trauma and maybe we should try to find a new MC again through our insurance. (We've done this before and it didn't stick for more than a year). I then asked her to discuss why she thought it would take such a long time. She was hesitant and said I would get defensive, as I have in the past about such issues. She was right.

During our actual discussion, I remained calm and was very empathetic. I understand from prior counseling that I hurt her by asking for sex when she's not in the mood and getting angry passive aggressive when it didn't happen. I told her that happens in marriages and we can communicate about that and I have worked on my emphathy skills.

Then she started discussing that she's suffered trauma by our sex life from the first time we had sex to the present. It's long and complicated and a little more graphic than I care to share right now, but it started with the first time we had sex. Apparently, she has always resented that I slipped on a condom without her knowledge while we were making out right before we had sex. She basically said that I just assumed we would have sex and so I thought of her as cheap. [She was on top of me and she couldn't see my hands and it became very obvious to me we were going to have sex since we were on my bed and had been extremely passionate and mutually touching, etc.] About 30-60 seconds into sex, she asked me about protection and I said I was already wearing protection. The sex that night then was extremely passionate, lasted a couple of hours and she basically moved into my apartment shortly after that night. We were engaged 14 months later and married about 15 months after that. I had ZERO idea she had an issue with that first night other than some reservations discussed in previous MC that we had moved a little too fast. She also talked about how alcohol played a huge part in our sex life from the beginning and talked about some things we did that I honestly believe she enjoyed in the first couple of years in our relationship (and which I have tried to engage in on several occasions with very mixed responses - some very enthusiastic, some angry rejection). She expressed a lot of hurt feelings, with apparently no recollection of any of the good experiences we shared (and there have been many).

Of course, I told her and texted her later about how I respect her, that I would pummel anyone who questioned her virtue, etc. We ended that discussion with me saying that I would be understanding and try to help her feel better about our sex life, communicate more, deal with it with this MC because it would be a step backwards to try another MC and insurance does not pay for our type of MC, etc. I SHOULD HAVE LET IT GO RIGHT THERE, BUT I DID NOT.

Later that day, what she said started to bother me. I felt defensive about being blamed for what I think was a mutual failure to communicate over the years. I tried to tell her that if we tried to communicate more about our past, it would help us heal because she would understand that my intentions were good, based in part because of our mutual relative inexperience with sex and reluctance to talk about sex, etc., the signals I THOUGHT I was receiving from her about sex (which she now claims didn't count because she was drunk), which she can help me understand, etc. She got very angry and refused to discuss it with me.

Later that day I got more upset and told her it was unfair for her to bring up the subject, hurl some pretty depressing anecdotes at me and then refuse to engage. I told her it WAS going to be really expensive to deal with all of this through EMDR and if we tried to at least hear each other's side of what happened, it may speed up our recovery because she would feel less "traumatized" knowing my side of the story. She still angrily refused.

I then escalated the situation by saying this is what ALWAYS happens about sex, she brings it up, it is discussed briefly but the topic is dropped immediately with little mutual understanding. I told her if sex was so horrible in the beginning of our relationship, why did she marry me 2.5 years into our relationship. Her response was that she hoped I would change. I then told her she married me under false pretenses and should have talked about our issues before getting married.

She then got VERY angry and screamed that she told me to drop it and started screaming "I hate you..." over and over. She talked very fatalistically about the relationship and was fuming. I talked about her lack of self control, etc. 

I then said I think it's best we cool off and I stay somewhere else that night. I got a hotel room. 

The next morning I texted her what she would not let me say. I tried to give her some context about the first night we had sex to show that she was not exactly "traumatized" - how we were both in our mid-20s, had multiple dates, she left her apartment about 1 am to come to my apartment, we were on my bed (as opposed to the couch) etc. She refused to discuss it with me and got angry. 

She texted me the following: "You have finally inflicted the ultimate damage" stating that "justifying and blaming me for my trauma makes it impossible to get over the damage that has evolved for me. There is obviously no hope here. How dare you minimize my trauma!! That alone makes me hate you even more."

At the suggestion of our MC, we are both now taking a indeterminately long time out to let us cool off. We are each going in individually to see our MC next week.

Our MC says we are both in a lot of pain, that I need to control my anxiety over the situation and just back off. I am. The MC also thinks it is actually better for the topic to come out like this because my wife can now process the trauma in her EMDR therapy.

I hope so...


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

She has held on to all this resentment since the first time you had sex? Was she abused in her past that makes it harder for her to be physically intimate. I don't understand this whole trauma thing. This is way more messed up than what I'm going through. You should stick with what your professional says. Don't talk about it anymore as you seem to make the issue worse by getting defensive.
If my husband brings up an issue from a few months ago, I get frustrated with him for not saying something sooner. She is bringing up stuff from the first time you ever had sex! That is baffling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Dad, 

Have to say, sounds like your wife knows exactly what she wants out of your marriage, she's decided you're her new daddy, it's pay all the bills, provide all the goodies, NO SEX. You need to decide to either get used to it, or leave her and accept whatever damage it will do to your kids. Reality is, your relationship is damaging them now, they're not seeing normal affection between the two primary adults in their life. IF you divorced they could at least witness one of their parents having a normal relationship, with normal affection and intimacy. My advice, accept that she is not attracted to you, and she's perfectly happy with that. You need to move on if you're capable of it.


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## frozen (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Re: Advice about rebuilding marriage and ANY physical intimacy*



Dadof3greatkids said:


> @ Frozen. I am interested to know your thoughts about how Gottman's approach compares to the EFT approach of Sue Johnson. Gottman's approach on its face seems quite different.


Hmm thinking about this. Approach is different but they don't really conflict. Good stuff in both of them.


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## frozen (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Re: Advice about rebuilding marriage and ANY physical intimacy*



Dadof3greatkids said:


> This is more to vent than to seek advice. Our MC has already given us advice, which I am following.
> 
> Another BIG set back for us and now my wife is REALLY angry and won't talk to me. It got so bad, I got out of the house this weekend just to let things cool off.
> 
> ...


These events are so typical do not be alarmed about it. You will say a lot more that will have the effect of minimizing her trauma. 

Keep it to yourself. My wife always said black when she meant white. It is a national if not global problem. So many women will not be truthful of their feelings during courtship because the drive to control you and make you theirs is too strong. The issue is discussed in the Michelle Langley books.

How she felt about it should have really been discussed then. You will learn to stick with what you were feeling and thinking. She may have been blocking out the feelings she described at the time so she could enjoy the experience, but it was still something that bothered her.

Your counselor was correct about it forcing the issue but try to avoid these kinds of responses or even responding at all for the time being without counselor. 

The miscommunication issues are all huge for me. They are very hard pitfalls to avoid. We just see things differently, and I often forget how her attachment issues shape what is important to her.


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## TryingandFrustrated (Nov 7, 2012)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> Agree about giving her space and stop fighting. Over the last few weeks, just as she seems to be getting over it, my expectations for sex go up and then when it does not happen I go a little batty and start a fight, become passive aggressive, etc.
> 
> Having been to MC before, I can already tell the MC is re-directing us towards sex in the near term. I just need to back off, not be moody around her and the kids for a couple of weeks and restore some sanity to the house. She still won't initiate ANYTHING (and expecting or demanding that will only get us back to where we are now), but I suspect she will be receptive in the relatively near future.


You are in the almost the same situation as I'm in. My wife thinks that I only want/wanted her for sex. We have been to MC for the past year and our MC was and still is all for taking sex off the table while working on things. Things can be going well for a while and then I get the idea that maybe we are doing better, the wife is happy and we will resume our normal relations again, only it doesn' thappen and I start to get withdrawn and angry (even though I try not to let it show). She takes this as if I still only want her for sex. It is an ugly circle. I then back off for a time again and hope this next time is different.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

TryingandFrustrated said:


> You are in the almost the same situation as I'm in. My wife thinks that I only want/wanted her for sex. We have been to MC for the past year and our MC was and still is all for taking sex off the table while working on things. Things can be going well for a while and then I get the idea that maybe we are doing better, the wife is happy and we will resume our normal relations again, only it doesn' thappen and I start to get withdrawn and angry (even though I try not to let it show). She takes this as if I still only want her for sex. It is an ugly circle. I then back off for a time again and hope this next time is different.


I've heard the same excuse from my DW, but honestly I think it's total BS, passive-aggressive mind-rape. I can honestly say that I have spent our 18 year marriage being utterly faithful and attentive. 

Pretty well convinced that all of this PA and hiatus crap is just emotional punishment, mostly springing from her deep seated anxiety at not having any other power in our relationship.

These things really seem to boil down to simple power struggles between spouses. It's often the man who's made out as the villain, but not always, but essentially one spouse is using what he or she perceives as their best available leverage to punish and control the other spouse. 

Sadly, the courts and marriage laws have made marriage into an emotional and intimacy trap. There is nothing you can do to force someone to have affection and intimacy with you, and the trap part is that the harder you try the more convinced they will be that withholding is an effective and correct course of action. 

So once you have kids, you've given unlimited leverage to someone, and if you chose poorly then you're stuck with it, or with damaging your kids. Not to mention the financial setbacks of divorce. 

Marriage law, and a court system that rewards this kind of emotional abuse have taken away the incentive of millions of wives in the U.S., who have no need whatsoever to try and meet the emotional and intimate needs of their husbands. So they don't. 

Bottom line, most MC's will minimize the legitimacy of your sexual needs and the abusiveness of a woman who refuses to participate in the emotional and intimate affection of a relationship. I think that rewarding this kind of behavior with any kind of legitimacy is a big big mistake, it's like training a dog or a child, once you reward bad behavior they will ALWAYS repeat more often for more rewards.


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## frozen (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Re: Advice about rebuilding marriage and ANY physical intimacy*



IronicSmile said:


> I've heard the same excuse from my DW, but honestly I think it's total BS, passive-aggressive mind-rape. I can honestly say that I have spent our 18 year marriage being utterly faithful and attentive.
> 
> Pretty well convinced that all of this PA and hiatus crap is just emotional punishment, mostly springing from her deep seated anxiety at not having any other power in our relationship.
> 
> ...


Respectfully, your situation is quite different then OP. I have no doubt for some AS the withholding if sex could be a power play, but certainly not in all situations.

I also don't know where you could have come up with the idea most marriage counselors minimize or delegitimize the sexual needs of one party over the other.

They need to find a way to engage in sex in a new way. A good counselor well figure out the problems and if they can't fix it should recommend a trial separation or more drastic measures


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> Then she started discussing that she's suffered trauma by our sex life from the first time we had sex to the present. It's long and complicated and a little more graphic than I care to share right now, but it started with the first time we had sex. Apparently, she has always resented that I slipped on a condom without her knowledge while we were making out right before we had sex. She basically said that I just assumed we would have sex and so I thought of her as cheap.



That is ridiculous. *Slipping on a condom without the other person seeing does NOT qualify as "trauma".* It's also an insult to women who have been raped or molested and suffered genuine trauma. Either she's not telling you what the real problem is, or she's deliberately fishing for excuses about why she doesn't want intimacy anymore.

*BTW, my wife is also Korean. And like yours, she also grew up in a very non-affectionate home (so did I). But guess what - we are extremely affectionate with each other and we both enjoy sex a lot. *

A lot of people are beating up on your MC for taking sex off the table. But while I can certainly understand the frustration with this, it does make sense. Forcing her to have sex when she doesn't want to, isn't going to do any good. Therapy can do great things, but it can't make people enjoy sex any more than it can make you forget about it.

You might not want to hear this, but the cold truth may be that your wife simply has no want or need for physical intimacy anymore. You can go to MC for years and it might help with the arguments, but it's not going to make your wife horny or attracted to you. MC has limitations. . It's like fixing a car up like new, but the car still doesn't have any gas in the tank so it's still not going to go anywhere. 

You need to have a frank discussion with your wife about this. She will probably come up with even more excuses about why she doesn't want sex. It's time to tell her that she doesn't have to make excuses anymore. She is what she is, and she might as well be honest about it. I'm sorry, but most likely, these are your only real choices:: 


Live a celibate life
Get divorced and find someone else
Have affairs
Have an open marriage

I sincerely hope I'm wrong. Good luck.


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