# EA?? why is it different than just a friend?



## tiki (Feb 13, 2011)

I have been thinking a lot about relationships with the opposite sex... why is it that when we are close to someone of the opposite sex, we share our feelings, we talk about our problems, we confide in one another it is called an emotional affair.. but if that person is of the same sex, or a sibling/cousin/family member, it is just a really good friendship?

If you cannot connect on an emotional level with your spouse, but you find it in another, and you have no plans of running off with this person, why is it so wrong??

TIA


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## terrified (Jul 26, 2011)

You had me until "If you cannot connect on an emotional level with your spouse, but you find it in another".

I'd say 80% of my closest friends are men. I'm not a big fan of women (sorry fellow ladies...) BUT the moment I look to another man for something (emotional or otherwise) I am not getting at home - I have crossed the line. 
My friends are friends, that is all. We b*tch about work and have a few beers, watch soccer and movies (as a group), go to concerts. Same as I would with women, just happens to be a man.

If connecting emotionally with your spouse is an issue then you need to address it and work together to fix it. Turning to someone else for ANY part of a relationship is detrimental to a marriage.


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## tiki (Feb 13, 2011)

So, I can confide in my girlfriends about my marriage, I can ask their opinion, I can get advice, I can complain and gripe.. I can hang out, go to dinner, etc... and it is ok?? But I can't do it with a man? Fixing the emotional connection is not an option.. there has never been a connection there.. I don't want it with him... does it break my heart to think I am in this type of marriage? Yes.. is there a way out of this marriage? No... so I am stuck... But I find a great deal of comfort from someone else, and there is no way we will ever be together and we are ok with that.. we are that void for each other.. we don't have it with our spouses, but we have it for each other... Are EA affairs wrong because they can turn physical? what happens if that is impossible and both are fine with keeping it emotional?


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## Cypress (May 26, 2011)

Tiki,

Here is a pretty good definition of an emotional affair:



> a relationship between a person and someone other than (their) spouse (or lover) that has an impact on the level of intimacy, emotional distance and overall dynamic balance in the marriage. The role of an affair is to create emotional distance in the marriage.
> 
> This viewpoint does not require sexual play or sexual intercourse in order to define the presence of nor the impact of an affair on a committed relationship.
> 
> An emotional affair has the capacity to injure a committed relationship sometimes more than if it were a one night stand or about casual sex. -- David Moultrup


You are letting someone else meet you needs, rather than your husband. Marital counseling will help. You and your hubby need to read 'His Needs, Her Needs'.

Cypress


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

tiki said:


> I have been thinking a lot about relationships with the opposite sex... why is it that when we are close to someone of the opposite sex, we share our feelings, we talk about our problems, we confide in one another it is called an emotional affair.. but if that person is of the same sex, or a sibling/cousin/family member, it is just a really good friendship?


Wrong. An AFFAIR isn't the same thing as a FRIENDSHIP.

EAs are wrong because they are AFFAIRS. An affair and a friendship are not the same.


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## terrified (Jul 26, 2011)

tiki said:


> So, I can confide in my girlfriends about my marriage, I can ask their opinion, I can get advice, I can complain and gripe.. I can hang out, go to dinner, etc... and it is ok?? But I can't do it with a man? Fixing the emotional connection is not an option.. there has never been a connection there.. I don't want it with him... does it break my heart to think I am in this type of marriage? Yes.. is there a way out of this marriage? No... so I am stuck... But I find a great deal of comfort from someone else, and there is no way we will ever be together and we are ok with that.. we are that void for each other.. we don't have it with our spouses, but we have it for each other... Are EA affairs wrong because they can turn physical? what happens if that is impossible and both are fine with keeping it emotional?


It is wrong because you are lying to your partner. If you can tell him that you have no emotional connection to him but you do with someone else and he agrees to live that way then fine. But if you are lying to him and you aren't giving him the right to choose then it is wrong and is very selfish.

You can't have everything. You can't lie, use and manipulate people to create your fantasy life. Life is hard. Marriage is hard, and never perfect. 

There is no friendship in filling a void that should be found in your partner - it is creating another partner. That is an affair.


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## tiki (Feb 13, 2011)

Our emotional distance was there long before my friendship with this man... long, long before... He is not the reason why my husband and I drifted apart... we drifted apart because he lies, he has mental issues he won't deal with, he is a long time pot smoker.. we are stuck in this marriage... with no way out....I just finally found someone who I can confide in 100% without judgment. The part that I see being so wrong on my part is the secret.. no one knows how deep this friendship is... We don't tell, and that is fine with both of us. Neither one of us ever plans on running to each other and being together as a couple... we just find extreme comfort knowing that we can share anything and everything with one another, something we haven't had in our marriages for a long long time.. I long to have this type of feeling for my husband, but it is impossible.. I don't think he is capable.. we are in counseling... and it does NOTHING...


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

What's the backstory on your "friend" and why do you keep him a secret??? Why don't you tell your husband about him and why do you not let others know how "deep" the friendship is?

If you are unhappy in your marriage, get a divorce.

Yes, it really is that simple...


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

So if your convinced it's not an inappropriate relationship why did you post in an infidelity forum??

If you had an emotional connection with your husband what would your relationship with this OM be? 

If your H knew of your relationship with the OM what would his reaction be?

The long and short of it is that if you are filling a marital need outside of your marriage you are having an affair.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> So if your convinced it's not an inappropriate relationship why did you post in an infidelity forum??




I think we all know where this is heading...

Here's a little story for ya: I had a "friend" I kept secret from my husband. In fact, he was the only friend of mine who he wasn't really given details about. 

We ended up having an affair. 

So yeah, my bet is you are involved in an affair which is why he's a secret to everyone from your hub and friends and why you say you're not connecting with old hubby and why you sound like you are speaking into the Fog microphone.


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## Cypress (May 26, 2011)

Tiki,

My marriage ended due to an emotional affair on my spouses part. I heard it was not physical. I spoke to the OP many years later, their stories matched. 

I found out when my spouse told me about "loving someone else". In most conversations after that, my spouse spit venom, blamed shifted, gas lighted, out right lied and demeaned me to the point I almost begged for divorce.

How well do you and your husband communicate? Well enough to make him happy? Or, is he avoiding you every chance he can?

Cypress


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

tiki said:


> I have been thinking a lot about relationships with the opposite sex... why is it that when we are close to someone of the opposite sex, we share our feelings, we talk about our problems, we confide in one another it is called an emotional affair.. but if that person is of the same sex, or a sibling/cousin/family member, it is just a really good friendship?
> 
> If you cannot connect on an emotional level with your spouse, but you find it in another, and you have no plans of running off with this person, why is it so wrong??
> 
> TIA


I can speak from personal experience that it has little to do with one's intent. Few people who fall into an EA intend for it to go very far. In an EA there are chemicals that effect our thinking. Oxytocin and dopamine. So it is chemical. It becomes an addiction. 

The way a predator moves on a married woman is to befriend her first. He becomes one of the girls with her. He works for her to start sharing personal things methodically. He draws her in. She starts talking about her marriage and sex life. He begins to plant the seeds of descent. He gets her to question this man. She likes to communicate with her friend. He gets her. He might even become her soul mate. 

This is actually very wrong because it is so powerful and very very subtle. The best way to deal with this is not to start. 

Like I said, I know. I was in an EA. So this is not just opinion. Been there. Done that. I learned that I cannot have close female friends. Some will argue they can because somehow they are different. I was superman and met my kryptonite. I have also witnessed this happen time and again and it is as close to a sure thing as there is in life.

Any enregy put ot his special friend is energy that does not go towards the spouse. It is unfaithful behavior. It gets to a point where the EA partners cannot turn it around on their own.

If you cannot connect with your spouse on an emotional level you do not have a healthy marriage. That is the worst time to start up an EA. You have to either do the work to make the marriage healthy or decide that you need to divorce before starting an affair.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

terrified said:


> You had me until "If you cannot connect on an emotional level with your spouse, but you find it in another".
> 
> *I'd say 80% of my closest friends are men. I'm not a big fan of women (sorry fellow ladies...) BUT the moment I look to another man for something (emotional or otherwise) I am not getting at home - I have crossed the line. *
> My friends are friends, that is all. We b*tch about work and have a few beers, watch soccer and movies (as a group), go to concerts. Same as I would with women, just happens to be a man.
> ...


:iagree:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

tiki said:


> *So, I can confide in my girlfriends about my marriage, I can ask their opinion, I can get advice, I can complain and gripe.. I can hang out, go to dinner, etc... and it is ok?? But I can't do it with a man? * Fixing the emotional connection is not an option.. there has never been a connection there.. *I don't want it with him..*. does it break my heart to think I am in this type of marriage? Yes.. is there a way out of this marriage? No... so I am stuck... *But I find a great deal of comfort from someone else, and there is no way we will ever be together and we are ok with that.. we are that void for each other.. we don't have it with our spouses, but we have it for each other... *Are EA affairs wrong because they can turn physical? what happens if that is impossible and both are fine with keeping it emotional?


Your first statement is absolutely true unless you are looking to cheat on your husband.

Your statement about not wanting an emotional connection with your husband says it all. 

Why are you married at all?

EA affairs are cheating. Yes they very often turn into PAs, but EAs move through inappropriate behavior, clearly being unfaithful anf then escalate to full blown cheating. There is a point in the unfaithful range where unless there is external intervention this will proceed forward. The point of no return if you will.

Generally speaking in an emotional relationship:

A woman needs to connect with a man to have sex. A man needs sex to connect with a woman.

So the EA is foreplay. It prepares her for the PA. It seduces him as he is lookinhg for the PA.

But rest assured the EA is as damaging as anything. I could forgive a very early EA. I could not forgive an EA that had moved into the unfsaithful area. A PA is a complete deal breaker for me.

Your comments indicate you are already in an EA and are trying to justify it. Sigh. So being able to reason with you is not really going to help. I too insisted everything was fine. Only until I was well into withdrawal did I realize it was an EA and that what I was doing was wrong.

You are getting a great deal of comfort from the other individual. Yes ineed. You are now getting into the unfaithful realm. Unless your husband intervenes it sounds like you are on the edge of thet black hole where you will not be able to turn around. You are very close to falling into the abyss.

Also, people in an EA make it happen. Where there is a will there is a way. That said it is bad unto itself.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Tiki, you say your emotional needs are not being met by your H, and that it is impossible because there is no "connection" and he is not capable. That is just the excuse you are making up to justify your EA in your mind. Your H has emotional needs too, and by investing all your emotions outside of the marriage you are withholding it from your H. You, and your H both, are letting your marriage die slowly and it is your responsibility as much as his to fix this.

A "connection" isn't simply there or not, it takes a lot of effort to establish and maintain, but what you have found is that it is just more rewarding to connect to this other man instead (it's easier). If you are not willing to do the work to re-establish your connection to your H then it will keep suffering, and there is no point in trying to pretend you are married. Your H too has to do his end but as you've seen he is struggling and still needs outside help, but just don't delude yourself into thinking that he is somehow not capable as a human, nor buy into the idea that there is some magical connection with this other man.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

tiki said:


> Our emotional distance was there long before my friendship with this man... long, long before... He is not the reason why my husband and I drifted apart... we drifted apart because he lies, he has mental issues he won't deal with, he is a long time pot smoker.. we are stuck in this marriage... with no way out....*I just finally found someone who I can confide in 100% without judgment. The part that I see being so wrong on my part is the secret.. no one knows how deep this friendship is... We don't tell, and that is fine with both of us. Neither one of us ever plans on running to each other and being together as a couple... *we just find extreme comfort knowing that we can share anything and everything with one another, something we haven't had in our marriages for a long long time.. I long to have this type of feeling for my husband, but it is impossible.. I don't think he is capable.. we are in counseling... and it does NOTHING...


Rationalisation for an affair. We have to do this because we cannot accept we would do bad things. So we justify our actions.

Please deal with your marriage. You clearly are not looking for a friend. You are looking for a man to meet your needs in a way only a man can for you. That is cheating. It certainly is unfaithful behavior. Please either work on your marriage or leave the marriage legally and pursue a happy relationship with someone else. Someting healthy and fullfilling. Not this.

I am suspecting there are reason you wish to cake eat.

BTW, you are already a couple.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> A woman needs to connect with a man to have sex. *A man neesd sex to connect with a woman.*


So, to the men, please answer this: what is the old adage about men being able to have sex without "feelings"...yet here it says men need sex in order to connect... so with a one night stand or otherwise...if there is no feeling, then why the need for "sex" to connect?

I have wondered about this for a LONG time.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> So, to the men, please answer this: what is the old adage about men being able to have sex without "feelings"...yet here it says men need sex in order to connect... so with a one night stand or otherwise...if there is no feeling, then why the need for "sex" to connect?
> 
> I have wondered about this for a LONG time.


My comments were about a long term emotional connection in sex. I get my intimacy met through a sexual realtionship. I connect that way. If I am not having regular sex I will begin to shut down emotionally unless I fight hard to bring it all back.

So I would say then that a ONS is not meant to meet a need for long term intimacy. That said there is some intimacy going on albeit at a more shallow level. Some men operate in a mode of ONSs ... I guess I can understand it to a point. Not for me. I do get the allure. I just think that a wife can be many women all in one. 

Even when I was single while a ONS would be wondermous thing for its own sake, I was always looking for something more out of life. 

I don't put myself in a position where I would be tempted by a ONS now that I am married. 
I must be in that 25% who would notnhave sex even if noone would find out. Been there. My answer is that I would know.

I believe that cheating in general has become a very level field but that women probably lean towards EAs that lead to PAs where men are more focused on the PA which is what I am really saying.

Having said this I really know squat about women. I know the guy on the otherside of the affair is looking for more ultimately. he may not go into it that way but for his needs to be fully met he is going to be pulled towards making it physical.


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## tiki (Feb 13, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tiki (Feb 13, 2011)

Wow... Can't ague with any of your statements can I? I get it, I really do... Obviously, this is a full blown, text book EA.. The statement about the chemicals hit home... I do crave his connection... I get a thrill from talking to him... It gives me the warm fuzzies I don't get from my spouse.. But please know that I have done everything to fix my marriage... I truly have.. I have hung in there for years.. I have endured more than one wife should... And i have never disgraced my family much as he has... This relationship with this other man started almost 4 years ago... If we lived closer, I don't doubt it may turn physical.. But knowing that we are so far apart, we know it would never happen... So now what? Do I break up, so to speak.? Do i just delete all contact info and ignore his advances and surely his need for answers? is it normal to grieve this relationship? I am sure I will miss his comfort, his humor, his advice and help... Just as he will with me. I can assure you he didn't seduce me, I can assure we stumbled upon each other on a photography forum.. It started off as 2 people answering questions about photography.. I feel the need to defend to defend our roots so to speak. I appreciate your responses... Blunt, yes.. But perhaps I need to hear it in that way. Do I tell my husband or just tuck it away (he certainly has his secrets I am sure....)? Ugh, this just sucks.... I want so badly to have a healthy happy marriage... I just don't think that will happen with my spouse 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

Yes, you should end it with the OM. Until you have him out of the picture, you will not be able to focus on your own marriage. You've been in an EA for almost 4 years, so you can't claim to be an ideal wife during those years. 

Some may see an EA as disgraceful, but you claim your husband has been even more so. Still doesn't justify an affair, but if he is so horrible.... why do you stay married? Why are you stuck? If you've never had an emotional connection, why did you marry him?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

It's amazing how this thread went from "Why do 'friendships' have to be an affair' to an admission that the OP is involved in an affair. 

Tiki--you can either stop having an affair and work on/end your marriage or keep doing the same thing and expect the same results.

The answer is simple: get a divorce or work on your marriage. Continuing your affair isn't going to resolve anything, it just complicates things and the main issue isn't dealt with, as evidenced by your post.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Saffron said:


> Some may see an EA as disgraceful, but you claim your husband has been even more so. Still doesn't justify an affair, but if he is so horrible.... why do you stay married? Why are you stuck? If you've never had an emotional connection, why did you marry him?


:iagree: Why are you still with your husband if you are so unhappy?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Tiki - As JB said you either have to decide to quit the EA and work on the marriage or quit the marriage - only you can decide that. If you quit the marriage, well there's not much to talk about here so I'll address the other. 

What you do is tell your husband. Why? Two reasons. First, as your H he is entitled to know - no secrets in a marriage. Second, if you don't tell him nothing will change. Sometimes being hit with infidelity is the jolt that it takes to make a spouse realize the depth of the short comings of the marriage and commit to working on them. That is not to make an excuse for your affair but the revelation can be a wake up call. I also believe that if you don't tell your H you will not successfully end your EA. As someone who's been in an EA I know - they are incredibly hard to quit. You will mourn it, it will hurt - even physically. If you are not committed to and accountable to your H you will cave under the emotional strain of walking away from your AP (affair partner) and go back to him. 

Now, telling your H and what you do after D Day is like this. First when you tell him you tell him the truth, the whole truth and nothing but - no trickle truth. If you want to reconcile with your H this is crucial. Your H has been lied to by you, nothing will crush him more than to continue to uncovers lies. Give him all of the bad news the first time - do not let him find anything more - no matter how much it hurts or embarrasses either of you. After that you write a no contact letter to your AP, let your H read and approve of it first, then prove to him that you sent it. Then enforce it - no contact with the OM. Answer all of you H's questions gladly and willingly no matter how many times you've already answered the same questions. Give him complete transparency into your life - phone, email, social sites - everything. Communicate with him. You're this far in - lay it all out and try to connect and grow as a couple through rebuilding your marriage together. 

The emotional connection comes through intimacy. Intimacy comes through communicating. Be open, be honest. Build that relationship with your H.

Is telling your H a gamble? Sure, it may kill the marriage, your H may not be able to get past it. But he may well be able to deal with it, and the two of you may well be able to build a new marriage together. It is commonly said here (and I agree) that the marriage you had is now over and it cannot come back. It will go one of two directions, it will end, or it will get better than it was. It's up to the two of you to decide which direction but that decision cannot be made in the absence of the complete truth.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Tiki - Another thing you need to be prepared for if you move forward. You are also going to crush your AP. After a four year EA he is fully invested and he's going to be hurt if you walk away. It is going to be hard on you knowing that you are hurting him. You must maintain no contact. He will likely try to contact you and ask why, tell you he misses you, that he is devastated - you must be prepared to ignore it all. You will have to block him from all avenues he has to access you. His pain and your pain from ending the EA are the price you both have to pay for having an affair - be prepared to pay it.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

A four-year EA?? How did I miss that part? Wow.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Saffron said:


> Yes, you should end it with the OM. Until you have him out of the picture, you will not be able to focus on your own marriage. You've been in an EA for almost 4 years, so you can't claim to be an ideal wife during those years.
> 
> Some may see an EA as disgraceful, but you claim your husband has been even more so. Still doesn't justify an affair, but if he is so horrible.... why do you stay married? Why are you stuck? If you've never had an emotional connection, why did you marry him?


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> A four-year EA?? How did I miss that part? Wow.


I think we just learned this. 

Obviously it puts doubt on the ability to connect with the husband. Or wanting to. There may very well be a problem between them but how could one really tell when in the midst of a foru year EA. Wow indeed.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

To those who keep advising tiki to leave her husband, or who can't understand why a woman would stay in an unsatisfactory marriage, there are reasons.

Many religions teach marriage for life and do not recognize unhappiness as a legitimate reason for divorce. Tiki may have financial or family reasons for staying married.

I advise redirecting the energy spent on advice to leave her husband, or asking her to explain her reasons for staying in an unsatisfactory marriage into how she can hope to improve the marriage she is determined to stay in.

Good luck, tiki.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

tiki said:


> Our emotional distance was there long before my friendship with this man... long, long before... He is not the reason why my husband and I drifted apart... we drifted apart because he lies, he has mental issues he won't deal with, he is a long time pot smoker.. we are stuck in this marriage... with no way out....I just finally found someone who I can confide in 100% without judgment. The part that I see being so wrong on my part is the secret.. no one knows how deep this friendship is... We don't tell, and that is fine with both of us. Neither one of us ever plans on running to each other and being together as a couple... we just find extreme comfort knowing that we can share anything and everything with one another, something we haven't had in our marriages for a long long time.. I long to have this type of feeling for my husband, but it is impossible.. I don't think he is capable.. we are in counseling... and it does NOTHING...



With the exception of your husband's problems/vices, this is verbatim the thought process my wife used in justifying her EA. The biggest problem you now face is ever reconnecting with your husband. Whatever issues he has your relationship with TOM has completely jaded your vision of your husband and there will be no chance of reconciliation until TOM is out of the picture completely. I went through a similar situation and we floundered for a year and a half in recovery because she couldn't recognize his impact on our marriage. Not until it came down to him or me did she really let him go. A few months later our reconciliation began to gain traction again. Lose TOM and concentrate on both your husband's issues and your own. If your husband cannot over come his demons and you can't live with them, then divorce him and move on without TOM as part of the equation.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> To those who keep advising tiki to leave her husband, or who can't understand why a woman would stay in an unsatisfactory marriage, there are reasons.
> 
> I advise redirecting the energy spent on advice to leave her husband, or asking her to explain her reasons for staying in an unsatisfactory marriage into how she can hope to improve the marriage she is determined to stay in.
> 
> Good luck, tiki.


Saffron and I both asked her why she is still married/why she got married. It's a legitimate question as to try to understand her where she is coming from.

The fact that her marriage hasn't been meeting her needs or fulfilling to her does not suprise me at all since she's been involved in an affair for 4 years. There is_ no way _ it could have as long as she was emotionally invested in someone else. No matter how you slice it. 

As for whether she stays or not--that is a decision only she can make. Continuing the affair isn't going to resolve the problems in her marriage. It never does.


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## tiki (Feb 13, 2011)

History... I have been married for almost 15 years... it was a whirlwind courtship (2 years)... I was young and in love.. Even on our honeymoon, I was slapped with "ya know... I thought about contacting my old girlfriend for one last bj before we got married" I was crushed and remember looking out the window and thinking, wtf have I done.. he still to this day does not know how badly that hurt, no matter how i say it, communicate it, tell it, scream it.. nothing... 

1 year later, I suffered a horrible miscarriage..the night I was home, with horrible things happening, he took off and didn't come home until 6:00am. And again, no matter what I say or do, he just doesn't realize how badly that crushed me.... I was devastated that he would go out and drink while I was losing our 3month pregnancy...again we powered through... 

All the while he was smoking pot.. even though I was 100% against it... casually, daily, whatever.. I don't like it... Then the lying started..about everything and anything... that has never stopped.. he lies about every thing... even hey.. did you throw the lunch meat away? who? me? no.... then who?? oh,yeah, I did...stupid stuff, important stuff, whatever.. just tell the f'ing truth!!!!

Over the past 15 years he has lost numerous jobs, crashed many cars (stupid careless things... he is a horrible driver) and has zero motivation to better any part of his life....

He is a horrible communicator.. I beg to talk and he wont'' turn the football game off, won't put down the book.. seriously.. he will not talk.. never has, never will...

fast forward a several years.. we now have 3 kids... and he is the good cop and I am bad cop..I make the rules he breaks the rules, I discipline he lets them walk all over him... I try to give him books, articles, talk to him about being a good parental unit.. NOTHING works.. NOTHING AT ALL... 

a few years ago, probably right when I started my friendship.. I gave myself a deadline, if I wasn't happy I was out.. well that deadline has come and gone.. I have gone to a lawyer and she tells me that I am stuck.. I can't get out of my house, I can't do it.. I will lose everything.... so we start counseling.. he lies to the counselor, says he is not doing drugs, he is taking his meds he is communicating with me.. all lies.. and yes, I obviously have a great big fat lie too... but my god, my EA keeps me sane... he boosts me up, he keeps me going.. I don't want any of you to think that I have this man of the year sitting her being beat down.. he was never meant to marry.. I firmly believe that.. he has never thought of us as a team, a unit a pair.. it has always been his and hers..It sucks... but through it all I have powered through, put my big girl pants on and tried to make this workl..

If I could I would divorce..and I can't get out... not now at least... My husband knows he is on his last chance... he knows that I am done. 

Now mind you, this is just a few of the things that have ripped apart at the pillar of trust.. every time he inches closer to trust, he does something that makes it crumble.. again, I beg, plead, yell, talk, cry, scream to make him see how is actions push us apart... he just doesn't get it... that is why I say he is incapable of an emotional connection.. I think the 30 years of pot smoking has turned him in a lifeless, a-motivational heap of nothing...I can't force him to listen or to understand... It was not because I have had this EA/friendship/connection...This friendship at first was soo casual..I didn't mean for him to become such a huge part of my sanity.. but he is.... I care deeply for him, he is married to the female version of my husband and it is so nice to relate to someone... someone who gets it.. someone who beats their head against the wall and begs for that understanding... 

I cannot be the only one who has fallen into this because their marriage sucks.. I really can't.. and I can't be the only one who hangs in there for a multiple reasons.. obviously, my happiness is not a priority.

I have never ever let him down in any way.. I have always been there to keep this family going.. things get done because of me... I am the breadwinner, I have the good job, I have the friends.. He will have NOTHING if I leave.. nothing at all.. and even that does not scare the crap out of him to be a better man, a better husband, a better father... 

call me stupid for staying for so long, but as you all know, a day turns into a week, a week into a month, a month into a year.. here I am 15 years later thinking holy crap what has become of my life.... I am not proud that I care so deeply for my friend... I am not proud that if he was here, we would be physical (that is a huge part of my poor marriage too). But it is what it is... I have to sit back and think, do I have any bit of energy to end it and work on my marriage..... I just don't know...


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Wow! Two things. First - and don't take this the wrong way - standard script for the wayward is to rewrite the marital history to make it all the loyal spouses fault. You're way off the reservation in what is "standard" simply based on the length of your EA, but your post above 'sounds' typical. Only you know if it is or not, but be honest with yourself. Second, if reality is as you describe it above then get a divorce. There is never a good time to take on such a huge and emotional life change. If you're waiting for the right time to come along, it won't, it never does. You've just got to decide that you've had enough and are willing to pay whatever the prices are to move on. 

It really sounds to me like you have long since emotionally left the marriage. How much your EA contributed to that - who knows - but I don't think it really matters now. I do think you'll make much more level headed decisions if you do it out of your EA, but that's going to very difficult to do. So think about it the way a very smart man described it to me; if your marriage is so bad that you are willing to leave it to go sleep in an empty bed alone with no one to make you feel better then you might really need to leave. If however, you need a warm body in that bed to make you feel better about the decision to leave, then maybe it's more about you than the marriage and maybe you ought to reconsider. Obviously given a four year EA a "warm body in that bed" is symbolic, but you get the idea.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

I would talk to a different lawyer. By her saying you're stuck, did she mean financially? I don't know if you're working, but if you were working full time would that help you become unstuck? Is there any family members that could support you during a divorce? Perhaps you wouldn't be able to keep the lifestyle you have now, but if your marriage is so broken, there should be a way to leave it. Perhaps telling him you want a divorce is the wake up call he needs?

Also, if he's been lying for the last 15 years about anything and everything, then I'd be double checking his phone and computer history. If you've been involved in an EA for 4 years, who's to say he's not up to something too. However, it's very common for someone having an affair to start thinking their spouse is having one too or lying all the time. So, it's hard to say as an outsider if your description of him is acurate. So, if you perceive him as lying a lot, have you ever suspected him of cheating?

Regardless, being in an EA is not the answer. You can not know 100% that the OM has a similar situation at home. Why is _he_ stuck? You found each other randomly online, but then are both married to horrible spouses who are so similar. What are the odds? Often one person in an affair exagerates their situation at home, to feel closer to their affair partner or be able to relate. Your OM may have had an unsatisfying marriage when he met you online, but then through you he saw his wife in a much more unflattering light. It's possible his marriage became a self-fulfilling prophecy. No matter what, your EA is not healthy for his marriage or your ability to decide what to do about your marriage. It's being reactive to a situation and not proactively doing anything about chaning it.

I have a friend who is miserable in her marriage. They're in MC, but it's not really helping. I see that's it's not easy to leave the marriage, but it's just a matter of time before they split. Most likely when the kids are out of the house. Meanwhile, she keeps coming dangerously close to EAs. We keep reminding her, you can't have it both ways. You can't keep your H for financial security, but then get emotional fulfillment elsewhere.... unless he approves it. I'm sure there are some relationships that can make such an arrangement, stay together for the children or for financial reasons. However, both people should know and agree to it.

I do hope you can find happiness, but it should be in a way your kids can see and someday emulate in their own relationships. Good luck finding a solution, but keep looking... an EA isn't the answer.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> To those who keep advising tiki to leave her husband, or who can't understand why a woman would stay in an unsatisfactory marriage, there are reasons.
> 
> Many religions teach marriage for life and do not recognize unhappiness as a legitimate reason for divorce. Tiki may have financial or family reasons for staying married.
> 
> ...


She is capable of answering this herself. What she is being told is that if she is going to have an affair she needs divorce first. The pressure is for her to end the affair. If not divorce. If she cannot divorce then she needs to stop the affair.


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## StrangerThanFiction (Jul 19, 2011)

tiki said:


> I have never ever let him down in any way..



After 15 years of marriage? Do you think you might be deluding yourself a little bit about how perfect you've been and how horrible he has?

I don't mean to diminish the pain you've suffered, and I can relate because i've let my wife down in some of the ways you've described about your husband.

The sad thing about reading your post is that once you finally wake your husband up to the reality of the state of your marriage (if ever), will you have any energy or resolve left to recommit to working on things? It sounds like you've already decided its over but just haven't left yet.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I will call it like I see it: it just sounds like excuses. You're not stuck. You choose to stay in your marriage and simultaneously have an affair.

Nobody is making you stay married, just as no one is making you have a 4-year long affair. 

Those are decisions you willfully and intentionally make every day of your life. 

You said you've never let your husband down in any way but I beg to differ. You aren't a saint or a perfect wife. No one is. Also, you cheating on him for the past 4 years... is a huge letdown for him. And worse...he doesn't even have a clue about it. Think I'm wrong? Tell him about your affair and see if he thanks you for "not letting him down."

Some people leave a marriage with just the clothes they are wearing and never look back.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

In this case, I see someone who is complaining about their marriage and taking no steps to do anything about it. Stagnant. By their own choice.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I have a male friend whom I am verrrry close to. My husband knows all about him and doesn't mind. My friend also happens to be a therapist so it's nice to have someone to talk with at times.

I have no desire to be with this friend. It is an emotional relationship...however, I have had this relationship with him for years before meeting my husband. 

He is not a secret, however. And I tell my husband the things I tell my friend. I just like my friend's to-the-point feedback that I usually need to kick my butt into gear. He and I rarely hang out and we don't do things together...it's purely on a level of talking. He talks to me for perspective too.

When you go to another person (opposite sex) for the things you shouldn't get from your spouse, you are cheating yourself and him out of a connected relationship.


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

tiki said:


> ...here I am 15 years later thinking holy crap what has become of my life.... I am not proud that I care so deeply for my friend... I am not proud that if he was here, we would be physical (that is a huge part of my poor marriage too). But it is what it is... I have to sit back and think, do I have any bit of energy to end it and work on my marriage..... I just don't know...


Have you and this "friend" ever met in person? Or are you just online friends that met in a photography forum?


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## tiki (Feb 13, 2011)

I have never stated I am perfect, but I do stand by my statements that I have never shamed our family like he has. The little bits I have noted are just a few of his downfalls.. I have moved past so many things. Hindsight is 20/20... Had I realized what it was going to be like I would have left a long long time ago... This friendship took most of those 4 years to develop. We didn't even know each others name for over a year. It was a slow process and it wasn't until recently that I kind of realized that maybe there is something more here. As far as divorcing goes, I am stuck financially. I cannot sell my home, I cannot afford it on my own. I have met with a lawyer and my husband knows it. It doesn't make a difference in his ability to do better, to be a better man for me and my family. Had he been here for me as a husband should, I wouldn't have fallen into this... I do agree I have to cut ties and work on my marriage or quit the marriage.. It is not an easy thing to do... I am sure anyone who has divorced will agree.... Part of me feels as if this is my payback to him for all the heartache.. And him knowing would give him a taste of what it feels like to be betrayed at such a deep level... I would bring me some satisfaction for him to finally be in my shoes... I always say "how would it feel if I did X to you" and each and every time he says I don't know because you have never betrayed me that way. For those of you that have been burned by an EA or PA, were you able to pick up on the clues? You would think after 4 years he would say something if I was so emotionally involved with someone else... I have always kept this very buried and separate...it wasn't until recently that I began thinking of my friend first... I wanted him to know things before my husband... I am glad I have a forum to put this out there, and I wish could all see that I am not this horrid rotten person.... Stuff happens... If it didn't we all wouldn't be on here!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

tiki said:


> I have never stated I am perfect, but I do stand by my statements that I have never shamed our family like he has. The little bits I have noted are just a few of his downfalls.. I have moved past so many things. Hindsight is 20/20... Had I realized what it was going to be like I would have left a long long time ago... This friendship took most of those 4 years to develop. We didn't even know each others name for over a year. It was a slow process and it wasn't until recently that I kind of realized that maybe there is something more here. As far as divorcing goes, I am stuck financially. I cannot sell my home, I cannot afford it on my own. I have met with a lawyer and my husband knows it. It doesn't make a difference in his ability to do better, to be a better man for me and my family. Had he been here for me as a husband should, I wouldn't have fallen into this... I do agree I have to cut ties and work on my marriage or quit the marriage.. It is not an easy thing to do... I am sure anyone who has divorced will agree.... Part of me feels as if this is my payback to him for all the heartache.. And him knowing would give him a taste of what it feels like to be betrayed at such a deep level... I would bring me some satisfaction for him to finally be in my shoes... I always say "how would it feel if I did X to you" and each and every time he says I don't know because you have never betrayed me that way. For those of you that have been burned by an EA or PA, were you able to pick up on the clues? You would think after 4 years he would say something if I was so emotionally involved with someone else... I have always kept this very buried and separate...it wasn't until recently that I began thinking of my friend first... I wanted him to know things before my husband... I am glad I have a forum to put this out there, and I wish could all see that I am not this horrid rotten person.... Stuff happens... If it didn't we all wouldn't be on here!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


tiki, you could almost be describing my mother's relationship with my step-father. Believe me, some of us see that people can be this screwed up. So many times, we would get that call that he flipped his car, drunk, in someone's front yard. Other times he lost control of his motorcycle, and we wondered if we were going to find out that he didn't make it when we got to the hospital. I remember spending months rebuilding an old car for myself, and he trashed it in a moment because he was too drunk to see it when he pulled into our drive. 

Like you, my Mom thought she was stuck. She stayed with him for 15 years. Every time she threatened to leave, she would promise to be better, and fail. Finally, she broke free, went to college because older adults were automatically accepted in our state, and became a health care professional. Please don't just cope with the situation. Escape it if you have to, but don't accept that you have no options. Like you, my mother said that time was her worst enemy. She just let it slip by.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

You can do it (Leave, that is). 

When I left my older daughter's father, I made 1/2 of what I make now and lived very frugally. But it can be done.


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## southernmagnolia (Apr 12, 2011)

tiki said:


> History... I have been married for almost 15 years... it was a whirlwind courtship (2 years)... I was young and in love.. Even on our honeymoon, I was slapped with "ya know... I thought about contacting my old girlfriend for one last bj before we got married" I was crushed and remember looking out the window and thinking, wtf have I done.. he still to this day does not know how badly that hurt, no matter how i say it, communicate it, tell it, scream it.. nothing...
> 
> 1 year later, I suffered a horrible miscarriage..the night I was home, with horrible things happening, he took off and didn't come home until 6:00am. And again, no matter what I say or do, he just doesn't realize how badly that crushed me.... I was devastated that he would go out and drink while I was losing our 3month pregnancy...again we powered through...
> 
> ...


*Of course you can't work on your marriage while having an affair at the same time.......that is kinda duh huh, don't you think? Where is your accountability for your bad choices in choosing to stay married to this man? Where is your accountability for not kicking him out and hoping that he would stand up and be a man. You've created quite a co dependent there but some people like it, maybe you like it that way? *


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

tiki said:


> I do agree I have to cut ties and work on my marriage or quit the marriage.


And you still have not done either.



tiki said:


> It is not an easy thing to do... I am sure anyone who has divorced will agree.... Part of me feels as if this is my payback to him for all the heartache.. And him knowing would give him a taste of what it feels like to be betrayed at such a deep level... I would bring me some satisfaction for him to finally be in my shoes....


Not to minimize your own pain, but nothing in the world equates with being betrayed via infidelity. It's unlike anything. And until you experience, you have no clue.



tiki said:


> For those of you that have been burned by an EA or PA, were you able to pick up on the clues?


My ex cheated and I can honestly say I didn't have a clue. None. It completely blind-sided me. Both when he was online looking for sex (no clue he was doing that--discovered it on my own) and when he sat me down to tell me he fcked someone else. I felt like an idiot.

Double-edged sowrd--I also cheated on him. He tells me to this day he knew something was off/weird with me and he suspected. I did confess to him but he says he knew.



tiki said:


> You would think after 4 years he would say something if I was so emotionally involved with someone else...


The irony of that is that YOU, yourself, would think that after 4 years you would have told or been honest enough with your husband to let him know the truth about how you feel for someone else/that you've been havin gan affair in secret and that you want a divorce. 

Nothing will change unless you change something.


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## Heartbrkn (Jun 16, 2011)

[" For those of you that have been burned by an EA or PA, were you able to pick up on the clues? You would think after 4 years he would say something if I was so emotionally involved with someone else..."

My WW was DEEP in EA for 15 months and I had NO idea. I found out by chance and am confident it could have gone on indefinitely without me knowing.


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