# Physical attraction, fitness, sex, etc



## mdistefano82 (Oct 9, 2009)

I love my wife to death. I am just curious is anyone has any advice on the following...

I teach Brazillian Jiu jitsu and grappling for MMA, so fitness has to be a huge priority. For me, it is easy to be in optimum shape because I enjoy what I do and have never found working out a problem. Also, I don't eat processed foods, drink soda or beer, don't really enjoy sweets, etc.

I don't expect my wife to be as diligent as me. I think she is a beautiful person but really doesn't try to look her best. She doesn't find it important because she is "fine". It has been a huge distractor in our marriage because I can't get her to see where I am coming from. Its not so much the end result as it is the effort. She knows what I naturally find attractive and doesn't try to acheive it because its not a big deal to her. She will admit that I look far better than I did out of college. I didn't work out and wasn't training back then. However, she can't see the other side that I think its totally sexy for a spouse to really work on something for the other person, no matter what area of life it is. She said she got it once upon a time, but seems to have forgotten. I want her to understand my point of view. I am not like some guys who will belittle and I don't want her to try to be a model. I want her to be healthy most importantly and I don't think she cares about her own health as much as I do. Again, I am looking for effort because she knows its important to me, even if I don't bring it up at all any more. 

I am just frustrated that I do a lot I don't like for her and this one area has really affected our sexual and overall relationship. Thanks for any advice.

M


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Your post could have gone off the rails in hundreds of ways, but I think you conveyed your message concisely and respectfully. Nicely done.

I happen to share your perspective. Health, fitness, and appearance are important to me. It's easy for those elements to be pigeon-holed into "shallow".
If your wife has a healthy body-image, that is great for her. I recognize that many women struggle with their appearance. So, consequently that makes your situation more challenging - and in my opinion more threatening to the long-term well being of your marriage. You have incorporated wellness into your lifestyle, a lifestyle that your spouse apparently doesn't share to the same extent.

I would think your best bet would be to attempt to engage her in becoming more proactive, by suggesting it as together time. Exercise together, prepare meals together, that sort of thing. You both benefit.

If she isn't interested, or feels hurt that you don't simply accept her for who she is ... that presents yet another hurdle. If you ignore the issue because you know it bothers her - you will resent her. If she goes hardcore for you, but isn't really invested for herself, she will eventually resent you.

Your solution will hopefully be somewhere in the middle, with a compromise. Obviously, if your lifestyles continue diverging, so will the bond between you.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

> I think its totally sexy for a spouse to really work on something for the other person . . . really doesn't try to look her best.


Oh, please. Cut the crap. You want her to look as hot as you think you look. You do not find her attractive as she is. VERY few men have problems being sexually attracted to their wives if (a) they love them and (b) she isn't obese. Most are even ok with extra weight. 

If she is healthy from a medical p.o.v., what is the issue? You say it isn't about wanting a "model," but you bring up how fit you are, as though that is relevant to how she should be--very fit. So you are contradicting yourself. I suspect your wife sees through this, too. 

You really don't have a leg to stand on if it's about being healthy. If her doc is satisfied with her health, why aren't you? Furthermore, you have found a source of pleasure in your endeavors; great. You do things you don't like b/c you think it pleases her--fine, to an extent. What if she wanted you to devote significant time to something you really didn't like--say, scrapbooking? As much time as it takes to stay as fit as you stay? How would you feel about that? 

You are not asking her to do something to be healthy; you are trying to get her to be healthy in the way YOU define it, which just HAPPENS to result in a high level of fitness. Yeah, right; this IS about how hot she looks from your narrow p.o.v.

We each have to decide for ourselves what is "healthy enough." Few people choose to be dxtra fit just b/c of the health benefits--they do it b/c they also get a charge out of looking hot. That's fine, as long as you don't impose this standard on others. 

So ask yourself, seriously, what level of fitness do you really want from her? Would walking 30 minutes a day be sufficient? I suspect not b/c it isn't going to lead to the look you want her to have. Real fitness takes a lot of time, and it is unrealistic to expect someone to do it who doesn't enjoy it.

Also, we should not do something requiring a significant time commitment just to please another person. Life is too short. We need to do what makes us happy and if you cannot accept her for who she is, you DO have a big problem, and it is not her "unwillingness to be healthy."


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

you are 100 percent in the right. it is very hard to have this conversation AFTER you marry. If you have it before marriage, it goes very differently. I posted something on fitness/weight in another thread. The thing is - this one was important enough that it could have effected my marriage decision. Some people really feel strongly that once you say 'I DO' that means you are allowed to stop making an effort to be attractive.






mdistefano82 said:


> I love my wife to death. I am just curious is anyone has any advice on the following...
> 
> I teach Brazillian Jiu jitsu and grappling for MMA, so fitness has to be a huge priority. For me, it is easy to be in optimum shape because I enjoy what I do and have never found working out a problem. Also, I don't eat processed foods, drink soda or beer, don't really enjoy sweets, etc.
> 
> ...


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

I get from your post that what is attractive to you is both the idea and the results of taking care of yourself - I don't think this is at all unreasonable you are honest and clear - I think Deejo made some great suggestions....it may require all your skills to pull this one off - so take a subtle approach -


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## mdistefano82 (Oct 9, 2009)

sisters359 said:


> Oh, please. Cut the crap. You want her to look as hot as you think you look. You do not find her attractive as she is. VERY few men have problems being sexually attracted to their wives if (a) they love them and (b) she isn't obese. Most are even ok with extra weight.
> 
> If she is healthy from a medical p.o.v., what is the issue? You say it isn't about wanting a "model," but you bring up how fit you are, as though that is relevant to how she should be--very fit. So you are contradicting yourself. I suspect your wife sees through this, too.
> 
> ...



it really has nothing to do with "hotness". it has to do with the fact that something that is important to me can sometimes be disregarded because it isn't important to her. (i also hold the view that chemicals are placed in our food that cause various forms of cancer, etc, so i don't like it when people eat things that have a ton of pesticides in it...she doesn't care about it much). Watch "the future of food" if you are curious. and no, it isn't like "super size me". because she has told me that "I find you more attractive now than when you weren't fit" tells me that she gets it. yet, because i am the man who is fit, i must be "shallow". i don't want this to turn into something where I am just here bashing her in order to defend myself from your obvious annoyance with my post. i don't know if you have been hurt maybe by someone who belittled you but that is not my intent here. I am looking for advice so if coming on here and bashing me helps you feel good about yourself, then so be it. i am not shallow. my huge struggle is that i get mixed messages. she has asked me to help her with food purchasing, with "training" her. she voices that she wants to lose weight and that she wants me to "push" her. however, it goes in cycles. one day, she wants me to help. the next, she gets frustrated that I try to motivate her to go to the gym with me. I don't know. whatever


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

That sounds tricky - 
it's such a fraught issue for her - at the end of the day YOU can't make her be motivated to lose weight/get fit....
it's her thing...
I have been through a horrible separation and I had been unhappy with my fitness and image prior to this - it was an issue for my H but he'd never told me -
I am honestly grateful that I have now realised that looking after myself is MY business and I can't ever expect anyone else to motivate me -
keep on working on how to not turn this into a 'resentment' issue - it is frustrating


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## mdistefano82 (Oct 9, 2009)

thank you to all who have put in some valuable input. i am not on here b-s ing anyone. if i were just shallow, i wouldn't come onto a forum seeking advice while lying about it. i feel as if because my issue with this is easily classified as "shallow" that there is nothing i can do. a few months ago, she voiced that she needed more romance. i don't, but SHE did. i didn't get offended. i was really busy and had put romance on the back burner. i then made sure i wasn't so busy and concentrated on the small things that i did when we dated and first got married. it wasn't that important to me as an individual but because it was to our relationship and to her, i gladly did it. that is what i expect. i am a simple man. this, to me, is as important as communicating, romance, finances, etc. i don't want to resent her and i don't want her to just think i'm shallow. the way i think about it is "why wouldn't you WANT to look as good as you can for your spouse?" it really should have nothing to do with me. I know, physically, what she wants from me. whether i trained MMA or not, I would WANT and CHOOSE to give that to her. I understand things can sound shallow when talking about this, but women and men who don't just bury it and call others shallow. that is way worse in my opinion. yet, those who actually say something in a sensitive manner get demonized. weird.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

sisters359 said:


> Oh, please. Cut the crap. You want her to look as hot as you think you look. You do not find her attractive as she is. VERY few men have problems being sexually attracted to their wives if (a) they love them and (b) she isn't obese. Most are even ok with extra weight.
> 
> Also, we should not do something requiring a significant time commitment just to please another person. Life is too short. We need to do what makes us happy and if you cannot accept her for who she is, you DO have a big problem, and it is not her "unwillingness to be healthy."


I thought you'd dodge that kind of response. So much for laying out the issue with tact ...


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Tough one boss. I too am a martial artist and have been so for many years. My wife is a runner, and a racquet ball player. She is a fit and athletic woman. I find her very attractive, but honestly she largely exercises for her and to be truthful, I largely exercise for me. What I am saying is that I think it's great that you are a mixed martial artist, but ultimately you do it because you love it. That you look good with the lights on is just a side effect she benefits from. Rather than chastise her for being a sloth, find a mode of exercise that she enjoys as much as you enjoy MMA. Give her an evening or two to take some salsa classes, or sign her up to learn how to scuba dive. Heck, even get her a gym membership and give her a few "down hours" by herself to go and train without the kids each week. You'll see in short order that she will discover something that she's passionate about, and the "other thing" that's hanging you up will solve for itself. P.S. they don't "poison our food", try washing it before you eat it and you'll be fine. The per capita incidence of cancer is actually dropping in this country. Look it up. Best of luck MMA brutha. LIL


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## mdistefano82 (Oct 9, 2009)

lastinline said:


> Tough one boss. I too am a martial artist and have been so for many years. My wife is a runner, and a racquet ball player. She is a fit and athletic woman. I find her very attractive, but honestly she largely exercises for her and to be truthful, I largely exercise for me. What I am saying is that I think it's great that you are a mixed martial artist, but ultimately you do it because you love it. That you look good with the lights on is just a side effect she benefits from. Rather than chastise her for being a sloth, find a mode of exercise that she enjoys as much as you enjoy MMA. Give her an evening or two to take some salsa classes, or sign her up to learn how to scuba dive. Heck, even get her a gym membership and give her a few "down hours" by herself to go and train without the kids each week. You'll see in short order that she will discover something that she's passionate about, and the "other thing" that's hanging you up will solve for itself. P.S. they don't "poison our food", try washing it before you eat it and you'll be fine. The per capita incidence of cancer is actually dropping in this country. Look it up. Best of luck MMA brutha. LIL


thanks. we have a gym membership. i would love it if she found something she was passionate about that had the side effect of looking good with the lights on. i did start working out for me. however, quickly after, she commented that I looked great. so, that fueled me to keep training. i then found MMA and jiu jitsu. that helped me get more in shape. my point, is that we have a gym membership, i ask that she buys healthy food for me (as I am lactose intoleratant, and have an overall sensitive stomach), and give her every opportunity to work out...with and without me, and she doesn't follow through with her own goals she sets out, and asks me to help with...sometimes...while getting annoyed when i do...sometimes...it is hit or miss. (sorry about the run on sentence).

ps. you can't wash genetically modified food. i am talking about the company monsanto foods. there food is the majority of what is in grocery stores and their produce is considered a pesticide because they have patented a certain gene which allows them to take over the entire food industry. it is a scary film. they breed the food to kill pests when they eat it. not sure on the cancer stats, but either way, there is scary stuff out there that our government allows.


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## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

you wife most likely agrees with you about exercising to just stop the discussion because she sees her position as indefensible from a logical point of view.

who wouldn't want to look better?

feel better?

but all of that is so not the point.

it's great you claim you're now in shape and eating healthy etc.

but your wife, like many many people, just isn't into it.

and so you're not negotiating with your wife, you're right fighting.

she's just not into the health fitness thing.

she wasn't when you married her

she isn't now.

leave her alone.

let her be.

it's her body and she'll do or not do with it what she will.

and sister359, myohmy let me know when it's safe to come out again:FIREdevil::2gunsfiring_v1::soapbox:


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

You obviously don't get it. You think you have a right to JUDGE her BODY. You think that if she loved you, she would CHANGE HER BODY to please you. Women who change their bodies to please men are generally pathetic creatures (I was one). A woman who loves the body God gave her, who takes care of it so that she is healthy (and a doctor determines that, not you), who revels in what is unique and feminine about herself--this is a woman to treasure. 

She has not disregarded something of yours--your religion, your hobby, your career. She has disregarded YOUR judgment of how SHE should look. If you cannot see the essential difference in this, oh, well. I tried.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

oh, puhleeze, rc, you should see the post I deleted! how funny to see you just used the phrase I finally settled on, "It's her body." Geezus, she's not "fit." Does anyone have any idea of what it takes to get "fit" or to look "AS GOOD AS SHE CAN"? BTDT and bought the T-shirt. It took too much time and attracted too many shallow men. Now I settle for basic good health. My "stats" (bp, heart rate, etc.) are to die for (haha). yet I'm slightly overweight. hmm, guess I'm not looking "as good as I can." Thank god. Had enough Shallow Hals in my day. 

Most guys think their wives look hot with the lights on, absent obesity. I didn't hear that complaint, so I have no idea what's wrong with this chick's body. Three nipples, maybe?


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## ChimeIn (Oct 10, 2009)

Is it possible that the issue really isn't fitness, i.e. "hotness?" YOU think this is important and want time & energy devoted to this aspect of your life together as a couple... so therefore you want HER to feel the same way. I think that's what keeps most couples together. You need to have that common link. My husband and I always laugh about the Chris Rock comedy routine, where he says "Two Jesus-freaks can stay together forever... but you can't have one person be a Jesus-freak and the other be a crack head! It just won't work! One can't say I'm off to church and the other say I'm gonna hit the pipe!"

It's just a comedy routine but the heart of it is very real. If she doesn't share a basic interest in something you find very important, you're going to find it hard to communicate. 

And I agree with recent_cloud who says we would all like to look better and feel better... but there are other thing we want more. You don't mention if you have kids, is your wife a student, working, etc., what are her other priorities?

The only think I feel that you can do is to keep enjoying the fitness level you've found, and keep encouraging her to try and find hers. If she wants to try bellydancing, so be it. If she wants to try rock climbing, buy her a harness and be excited for her. But she may never have the same level of enjoyment that you seem to have.

One other thing... you say "I do a lot I don't like for her and this one area has really affected our sexual and overall relationship."

Why continue doing something (anything) you don't like? Life is too short... do what you enjoy. I hope you can do it with the woman you love : )


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

> So in short - he's hotter than she is, and feels entitled (biologically driven) to get laid by a hotter woman than his wife currently is. Ideally he's hoping she works out more and increases her attractiveness. His wife doesn't understand this is an actual real threat/stress to her marriage, and is discounting his real need for a more sexually attractive partner. You ignore what your partner finds attractive at your peril. Trouble ahead.


More of the 'popularized' version of research, and still drawing a false conclusion. 

A study shows that men are most attracted to a certain hip-to-waist ratio. Yes. 

This does not mean they are turned off by everything else, or that it is the ONLY thing to which they are attracted.!! 

Furthermore, much of what is "attractive" is SOCIALLY DETERMINED. Just look at what was considered "attractive" in different historical eras, for goodness sake!! Other than basically symmetrical facial features (which even babies like), everything changes from era to era. 

There are men today who would reject Marilyn Monroe as too fat. Women who look at the "dreamboats" of a past generation and think, "Ew. He looks gay!" (not that there is anything wrong with it; I'm just not turned on by effeminate looking men). 

So, Atholk, while your argument about divergence has some merit (and it could really be divergence of interests, etc., not looks), you overlook the very real social conditioning that leads some people to feel they are "entitled" to behave certain ways. You also overlook the fact that what is an 8 or 6 or 3 is largely socially constructed. And I might argue that, once an 8 (or whatever), always an 8--unless you learn to feel differently about your looks. I'm not where I was on that scale at 23 (yeah, I peaked early!), but I sure FEEL more attractive and I think my overall score--actual appearance plus attitude!--has averaged out to about the same! ;0


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## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

i'm told by a friend who's also my therapist when i feel the need that i fall in love from the inside out.

i fall in love with the heart soul and mind of a woman, and her physical appearence then becomes my ideal.

athok, you don't know how emotionally and intellectually opaque your remarks are.

monitoring your sliding scale of, uh, attractiveness no doubt keeps you very busy.

it's good you're busy.

sister, you obviously have a uppy: in the fight. enjoy.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Nah, I'm done. Didn't get my run in today; maybe that's it! 

Good to see ya on here, rc!


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

I've read your original post again - and there is a sense of "this is what I deserve" - I do things "i don't like for her" etc....
having thought about things a bit more I am wondering whether this is a pretty bad place to be -

by this I mean the place where you think a relationship should be balanced by committment to unpleasant tasks which if are not done will lead to resentment....

If I was your wife and I was picking up on this vibe it may make me even more stubborn....

your problem is communication - she can't/ won't hear you - you, can't won't take no for an answer....no communictaion/ no sex life....

the thing is it IS tricky because we don't just have bodies we ARE bodies - hence so many adults have complex relations to their bodies - kids don't usually (unless something goes terribly wrong) - so kids also 'naturally' exercise and stay healthy (given right conditions) 

so once again I don't think it is necessarily 'shallow' to wanting to encourgae your wife to have a relationship with her body which would you would find attractive....

but I do sense a bit of childish and unhealthy resentment in your idea that you deserve it....

and I don't think that this issue can really be well understood outside of the context of the whole relationship - body, heart , soul...


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

You can disagree all you want, but that doesn't make you right! I already agreed that there is some basic biology behind attraction, but it only indicates a sort of "baseline" attractiveness to a certain waist-to-hip ratio, which does not mean everything else is "unattractive." Read the study at http://web.missouri.edu/~rouderj/3010/readings/Singh.pdf. There is never a claim made that the WHR is either the only determinant of attractiveness or that other WHRs besides the "ideal" .7 are "unattractive." Likewise, for facial features, "more symmetrical" is "more attractive," but one cannot conclude from that that "less symmetrical" is "unattractive." 

We are amazing creatures with a huge range of sensors to help us evaluate others. If we weren't, only "perfect" people would mate, and the human species would have evolved into a group of people with perfectly symmetrical features and women with perfect WHRs. Obviously, that ain't so. But you seem to prefer thinking that men are "hard wired" to respond to only certain physical characteristics. How you explain the vast assortment of people having relationships, I'll never know, but whatever works for ya!


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## larniegrl (Oct 7, 2009)

I understand that men are visual people, but in the end you picked this women to be your mate. It doesn't make it right that she isn't watching what she eats, and trying to stay healthy. There is a healthy way to live. You cannot force this upon her...it doesn't mean you cannot voice your opinion, but you have to find a way to accept the way she is also.

My husband forgot the latter part. He would tell me that I needed to lose weight, which was true. But he would never back up those statements that I was the most beautiful woman in his eyes. I heard the "why don't you go to the gym sometimes" but never "I think you look so beautiful today." I'm telling you...this is a BIG deal in a marriage.

It sounds like a double-standard...but I actually became stubborn and balked about losing weight, because he was always pushing it in my face.


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## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

Atholk said:


> ultimately there is some real hard biological science backing up what the average person finds attractive.


i'm glad cuz i was begining to wonder 'bout that.



Atholk said:


> What I consider an attractiveness number, is far more than simply appearance - personalty, charisma, wealth, social status, kindness, child rearing skill etc all play a part. Though for women in particular, physical beauty carries a heavy weighting in the overall attractiveness number.


and all of the above "Takes no time at all. People form a near instant decision on other peoples attractiveness without conscious effort. "

wow am i ever impressed with myself now.

andand...social status???

wealth???

man, do we live in very different worlds.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Yeah, my eyes go straight down a guy's body to check out the size of his . . . wallet. hahahaha. I crack myself up!


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## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

i'm sure there are many who value social status and money, and more power (excuse the pun) to them.

but i've never been impressed by either.

what impresses me is honesty, loyalty, and a sense of humor.

andand did you know that the role of pheromones is no longer considered a major player in the world of attraction?

go figure.

oh, and i find good mothering to one's children very sexy.

again, go figure.

but back to the topic at hand, i can't imagine ever telling my significant other she needs to lose weight. 

or get in better shape.

geebus.
:crazy::crazy::crazy::wtf::crazy::crazy::crazy:
:crazy::crazy::crazy::wtf::crazy::crazy::crazy:


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

> did you know that the role of pheromones is no longer considered a major player in the world of attraction?


Send me a link on this, will you pls rc? I like to be up to date!


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## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

i don't want to get off track.

below is the study i um didn't cite but obliquely referenced in my post above. 

i couldn't find a link to it though:

Grus, W. E., P. Shi, Y. P. Zhang, and J. Zhang. 2005. Dramatic variation of the vomeronasal pheromone receptor gene repertoire among five orders of placental and marsupial mammals. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 102:5767-5772.

dr. zhang is at the u of michigan.

i did however find a link to an earlier study which lays some of the foundation for "dramatic variation of the vomeronasal receptor gene repertoire among..." 

(2003)

Evolutionary deterioration of the vomeronasal pheromone transduction pathway in catarrhine primates — PNAS

keep in mind they don't disallow pheremones play a role in sexual attraction; they may not play as large a role as thought.

for what it's worth and this is most certainly not my area of expertise, he makes sense.

is it time to emoticomicon yet?


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## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

Atholk said:


> Did you guys actually read what I said? I mean seriously, I say kindness part of being is sexy and I'm somehow a prime *******? There's no pleasing you people.


i don't think you're a prime *******, if i'm in your generalization.

we just disagree.

however, based on your use of the word 'prime' i don't think i'll ever look at a steak quite the same way.




Atholk said:


> Do the ladies have any practical advice for him other than telling him he is wrong about how feels?


well i read quite a bit of advice.

my and other's advice was, in a nutshell: (metaphorical slap upside his head) stop it.

corollary to that advice: keep it up and you ain't gona be gittin laid much longer.

now i've said what i wished to say and am moving along.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

The OP now admits he wants his wife to look better with the lights on--yet does not want to admit that this has anything to do with how she looks, but rather is about the fact that she won't do something to please him. Kind of moot all around, since he's in denial about his unrealistic expectations. 

There is a huge difference between a guy seeing a hot bod and thinking "ooh, I'd love to tap that!" but still finding his less-than-perfect wife also attractive and being turned on by her, and what the OP has said. The problem is not how his wife looks; the problem is that he has internalized an artificial standard of attractiveness and is allowing it to affect his marriage. It is up to him to figure out how to appreciate the sensuality of his wife as she is. If he wants practical suggestions on that, fine; he can ask for 'em. But he didn't; he asked how to get his wife to meet his standards. In other words, it is his problem, but she should solve it. We aren't playing that game.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sisters,
I think it is normal behavior for spouses to ask each other to change/improve in various ways. I honestly consider that a positive as long as the change/improvement is
1. actually an improvement and 
2. achievable 

This is the idea where we bring out the best in each other. 

Is there a reason this particular improvement fitness/weight loss is so offensive say compared to learning to be a better listener.














sisters359 said:


> The OP now admits he wants his wife to look better with the lights on--yet does not want to admit that this has anything to do with how she looks, but rather is about the fact that she won't do something to please him. Kind of moot all around, since he's in denial about his unrealistic expectations.
> 
> There is a huge difference between a guy seeing a hot bod and thinking "ooh, I'd love to tap that!" but still finding his less-than-perfect wife also attractive and being turned on by her, and what the OP has said. The problem is not how his wife looks; the problem is that he has internalized an artificial standard of attractiveness and is allowing it to affect his marriage. It is up to him to figure out how to appreciate the sensuality of his wife as she is. If he wants practical suggestions on that, fine; he can ask for 'em. But he didn't; he asked how to get his wife to meet his standards. In other words, it is his problem, but she should solve it. We aren't playing that game.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

> Sisters,
> I think it is normal behavior for spouses to ask each other to change/improve in various ways. I honestly consider that a positive as long as the change/improvement is
> 1. actually an improvement and
> 2. achievable
> ...


That is well said, but I'm surprised the question is necessary, simply because I thought I expressed myself so clearly and so eloquently ad nauseum! 

Fitness/weight loss/healthy living get all mixed up and they are NOT the same things. My point (yet to be made here) will refer to requests that someone make changes when they already get the "seal of approval" from their doctor. That is, the person is not morbidly obese and/or does not have any health problems related to weight/life style. 

But yes, the request to make changes in fitness/weight (if made to a healthy person, as defined above) are completely different from requests to improve listening skills or to make other changes to the ways we interact with our spouse. The body is one's own, it is the essence of one's being (or at least a very important essential component). It is who we are, not just "something we do." You cannot, and should not, try to change who someone is--imagine if your spouse said to you (or even a good friend): "you know, you are just a bit too Italian/Irish/Catholic/Jewish/intellectual/humorous/small and I'd really like you to change that." These requests do not ask a person to change something about the way we relate to one another (like listening better, using "I" statements, trying new things sexually, etc.), they are about the ONE person not "BEING" a certain way (thinner, less ethnic, etc). We are each entitled to the integrity of our being, unquestioned by others. It is a boundary no one should cross. 

A mature woman's body is what it is-why should anyone have the right to suggest it should be "better?" "Fitness" is an attempt to control the normal process of aging--and if someone chooses that for their OWN body, ok. But if I am happy with letting myself age in a normal and natural way, if I don't want to put a ton of energy into fighting mother nature, if it is not important to me to look more like I did when I was younger, then that is my decision and mine only. 

When you ask someone to improve their listening skills, you are asking them to work on something they do, not who they are. It's the same with having sex--you can ask someone to make changes there, because it's something they do, not who they are. But when you indicate that someone isn't good enough just because they are--and they appear to be--middle-aged, for example--you are penalizing them for having had the gall to live XX number of years, basically. 

I won't even get into the gender issues this question raises; that's a whole 'nother dissertation. Let's just remind ourselves that men have controlled, and demanded the right to control, women's bodies for a very long time, and it was never right. That's a secondary point, anyway, b/c the main point applies evenly to both men and women--neither has the right to ask for the other to change who they are, and each has the right to be who they are.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

Hey sisters,

I get what you are saying but I do have a slight point of difference here...
it has to do with the idea of what is natural....
the fact is we all exercise to some degree - that is natural - if we didn't we couldn't live - 
there is no 'more' or less natural way of aging we just age according to our personal circumstances...genetics etc... 

also people don't exercise just to halt the aging process - it fights depression as well as drugs do - (I am sure you know this stuff.... and it may sound like I am getting off track) 
but I guess what I am saying is that exercise isn't necessaily about the body or how you look - it can be as much about how you feel..

in terms of exercise - it's a bit like money 
too little or too much can get you in trouble....

I do agree that this issue is one that is fraught for both social and psychological reasons....especially (but not uniquely) where women are concerned and I agree that women are equated with their bodies and their appearance to a degree that men simply are not...hence it is a gender issue. 

I agree our bodies aren't a thing - they are us - they are the centre of so much of our being - 
but that is also why the OP has a point - 
he experiences his attraction in a bodily manner 
and while it is true that all sorts of partners find all sorts of partners attractive for all sorts of reasons 
part of the attraction is physical 
but I agree the physical attraction is not necessarily about how you 'look'...

anyway I think the issue for this poster is really one of communication between him and his partner and as I said in an earlier post - I don't think he has any right to 'expect' this of his partner - he may desire it and he may think if she ignores his desires that it will lead to unahppiness - but still he has no right to 'expect' it and he has no right to uphold his relation to his body and exercise as the best way of living or indeed 'being'. I suspect that perhaps his partner senses his moralistic attitude and that would be enough for me to start eating junk food every day just to annoy him...but that's me. 

But in his defense I think that for him a big part of being attracted to someone may be the sense that they are taking good care of themsleves - physically .
Now this has the disadvantage of sounding like he only likes 'hot' bodies - but it aint necessarily the same thing at all...

I don't really know in this instance -


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

> But in his defense I think that for him a big part of being attracted to someone may be the sense that they are taking good care of themsleves - physically .
> Now this has the disadvantage of sounding like he only likes 'hot' bodies


He said he wants her to look "good" with the lights on--my guess is, no matter what she did to be healthy, he wouldn't value it unless it resulted in her looking like a much younger person, fitter person. I like what you wrote, K, but I still think he is being extremely shallow and trying to hide behind the "fitness" facade, like so many shallow people do. I was one of those, so I tend to know exactly what they say and what they really mean. Hey, I could be wrong, and it doesn't matter to me one way or another, but it sure will matter to him and his wife if I'm right and he refuses to accept it. He'll remain miserable and perhaps ruin their marriage.


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## knortoh (Sep 5, 2009)

sisters359 said:


> He said he wants her to look "good" with the lights on--my guess is, no matter what she did to be healthy, he wouldn't value it unless it resulted in her looking like a much younger person, fitter person. I like what you wrote, K, but I still think he is being extremely shallow and trying to hide behind the "fitness" facade, like so many shallow people do. I was one of those, so I tend to know exactly what they say and what they really mean. Hey, I could be wrong, and it doesn't matter to me one way or another, but it sure will matter to him and his wife if I'm right and he refuses to accept it. He'll remain miserable and perhaps ruin their marriage.


sisters 
Yes I agree this could be a marriage breaker -
we all just see things from our place 
don't we....?
and you are clear and know what you are talking about
but that is why this forum is such a good thing -
a chance to speak honestly and be ourselves...
hopefully this guy will have a chance to think about stuff that maybe his wife is thinking/feeling but couldn't say to him.


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## revitalizedhusband (Feb 9, 2009)

sisters359 said:


> oh, puhleeze, rc, you should see the post I deleted! how funny to see you just used the phrase I finally settled on, "It's her body." Geezus, she's not "fit." Does anyone have any idea of what it takes to get "fit" or to look "AS GOOD AS SHE CAN"? BTDT and bought the T-shirt. It took too much time and attracted too many shallow men. Now I settle for basic good health. My "stats" (bp, heart rate, etc.) are to die for (haha). yet I'm slightly overweight. hmm, guess I'm not looking "as good as I can." Thank god. Had enough Shallow Hals in my day.
> 
> Most guys think their wives look hot with the lights on, absent obesity. I didn't hear that complaint, so I have no idea what's wrong with this chick's body. Three nipples, maybe?



You need to get off your soap box. You act like he came here and said "hey, my wife is a fat slob and I'm hot, how do I get her to drop a few hundred pounds?"

He came here asking how to ask his wife, in a tactiful way, to worry more about her health/fitness than she currently does.

My guess is, since this is such a "soap box" for you, is that you are either really big now, or have been in the past. 

Like I said, I could understand your post if he came here completely degrating his wife. But he wasn't even close to that and you jumped down his throat calling him a pig. Your post was out of line if you ask me.


To the OP, I understand your issue. I have been a workout fanatic for a long time, and for the last couple years have been taking BJJ/MMA classes. I always show up on BJJ nights, wrestling nights, and conditioning nights, not always on other nights (not to interested in getting punched in the face). 

My wife was apathetic when it came to working out for years but in the last 5-6 months she has started eating better and going to the gym. The sheer fact that she is trying to be healthier is a HUGE turn on. Like you said, its the effort, not the results that you are interested in

EDIT: FYI, even without working out or eating right my wife has never been fat, just realized my post could have been taken that way. She has always been a petite woman, I was just sharing how I agree with the OP that just the effort of trying to better herself is dang sexy.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Anything that is so life-altering is really a matter of personal choice and motivation. It is almost like asking someone to give up drinking. You can ask. You can beg. You can demonstrate a good pattern in your own behavior and choices. But if they're not into it, no matter how you behave, it won't change them.

IMO, I think all you can do is encourage and demonstrate good habits yourself. The rest is up to her. But if you attach more meaning to it you're going to undermine your relationship, IMO.


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## brighterlight (Aug 13, 2009)

Well, I might interject something from a different point of view. For me, it was my wife who told me my weight problem was about to end our marriage. Yes, I thought she was petty on that and it made me resent her more. But here is the catch, when given the option of divorce, you have a pretty big choice to make - divorce or change and save your marrige. I chose the latter and got myself back in shape. Now, I am just used to working out. It's a habit that one needs to develop. It is not easy but then again neither is divorse.

Dobo, yes you can ask someone to make a life altering change - we do that when we ask some to marry us - that is also a life altering change. We do that when we have children - that is a life altering change. My point is that yes we can make life altering changes and when it may have to do with your health; it's probably not that difficult of a choice.

Bottom line is that while I was upset that my W was unhappy with me and the way she would present it to me; I am far better off now that I was then. It's kind of like not wearing a seat belt for many years; then a law is introduced to force you to wear it and you get pissed at the gov't becuase you feel it's none of their businees to tell you what to do in your car. Then after a short while, wearing a seat belt becomes second nature and you start to realize the benefits and you wonder why you ever got into car without it.

In other words, if the origianl poster on here can gently and kindly persuade his wife to exercise to look better then I see absolutely nothing wrong with it - in the end she will thank him for it.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

You can ask and they can turn you down, too, Brighterlight. It is about choice. The point is you can't make the choice for someone else. You can only make that choice for yourself.

Your wife chose to put your marriage on the line to do it. Ouch.


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## brighterlight (Aug 13, 2009)

Dobo, yip it was painful. I know they can turn you down and that is their choice for sure but sometimes, the posibility of losing your marriage can be a great motivator. And yes, I know that for many, the threat alone can turn them away from the marriage anyway. I guess it just boils down to the individual.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> you are 100 percent in the right. it is very hard to have this conversation AFTER you marry. If you have it before marriage, it goes very differently. I posted something on fitness/weight in another thread. The thing is - this one was important enough that it could have effected my marriage decision. Some people really feel strongly that once you say 'I DO' that means you are allowed to stop making an effort to be attractive.





I suppose it is ok to be shallow before you are married and want a big boobed model that where's a size 0. However, it it FAR different after you have been married and are joined as one!!! So it would be ok for your wife to leave if you are in a disfiguring accident or God forbid if you have hair loss!! I agree that it's not fair if your partner, once you've gotten married decides to sit back and eat bonbons all day and forgets to comb her hair. However, if she is still doing something/anything to keep up appearances, it's not fair to impose your ideals on her....especially if she never agreed to that before you were married!! I do hope that you actually married her for the person is not what she looks like; because if not you are in for a big surprise when she turns 50 or 60!! (not to say that there aren't any good looking older women out there cause I'm sure they are!!!) 

Anyway unless you are willing to also give up some exercising for her and do some things that she loves to do, it's not fair for you to impose or regimen on her.

Just love her the way she is....and ACCEPT her for who she is!!!

Good luck


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## amadecasadesesperada (Nov 28, 2010)

Hi guys. I agree with Chimein. You probably can't change her if she doesn't think this is important to her and it's not one of her goals. And, you shouldn't have to.  

If you don't like what you have, and this is something where WILLPOWER has some kind of effect, then make her tactfully aware. Maybe she is just unaware. 
( Some people don't realize how far from fit they are until they see pictures of themselves 5 years ago. )

If she refuses to act, then you have two options. 
Good luck Distefano.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Really old thread!!


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## lime (Jul 3, 2010)

I think it's important to distinguish between losing a bunch of weight and _being healthy_.

The OP wants his wife to change her habits and establish a healthier lifestyle because he cares about her. He specifically mentioned wanting to see "effort," _not_ wanting to see her fit into a smaller size. I think he also wants her to _feel_ more attractive, proud of herself for working hard, and happier/more refreshed from living a healthy life. None of that has to do with him wanting her to suddenly look like a celebrity. 

Even though some people may be within "normal" range for vitals (heart rate, BMI, weight, blood pressure), that doesn't mean that they are perfect and don't need to do anything to improve their health. Also, even this framework for health can be misleading; weightlifters have high BMIs due to excess muscle, but they're usually healthy. Or, people might have "normal" blood pressure but are still at risk for high blood pressure based on their lifestyle. If they don't do something to change, their blood pressure _will_ become unhealthy in a few years. The normal range, guidelines, etc. are always subject to change as well...The Onion Movie - Obesity

To the OP: don't worry so much about the genetic modification. The actual DNA changes don't affect your body at all; the modified DNA gets degraded in your stomach and small intestine just like the normal genome of plants/animals. The pesticides are worrisome, but every type of commercial agriculture uses them, genetically modified or not. Monsanto has monopolized commercial agriculture, but I think it's the whole system, the economic side especially, that's creating problems. Genetic modification in itself is not harmful.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Wow. Once again, glad this bubbled back up. I missed the good stuff ...

Same old, same old, nonetheless.

Guy posts concern about losing attraction for his obese wife and wants to know how to approach the subject without mentally and emotionally scarring her, and the issue gets turned around on him.

It's an unfortunate dynamic.


This subject is deserving of a sticky.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

mdistefano82 said:


> . However, she can't see the other side that I think its totally sexy for a spouse to really work on something for the other person, no matter what area of life it is.



Hmmmmm. I wonder if it would be more successful to focus on this? I wonder if your love language is acts of service and you would like THIS particular act of service?

If you have not read about love languages, that would be a good topic to search for. If she viewed it as the way you receive loving feelings, might that help? As opposed to a sexy little thing that is lesser important?

Just a thought.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

mdistefano82 said:


> it really has nothing to do with "hotness". it has to do with the fact that something that is important to me can sometimes be disregarded because it isn't important to her.


My husband feels the same way. I am 5'8". At my heaviest (recently... I was quite heavy a few years ago)., I was 155lbs. I was still in size 6 and 8 pants. I was not obese by any stretch. He even has a little tub in the front where the extra food gets stored. But he works out and works out HARD.

Welcome to CrossFit: Forging Elite Fitness 

As well as ALSO running several times a week, running half marathons to support friends and stuff.

He wanted to share it with me. He wanted to share the VALUE of it as well as the results of nicely toned muscles. He wanted me to be able to pay attention when he talked about it. He wanted me to be able to report my one rep max dead lift weight! 

I have lost 15 pounds. Yah he likes that too. But he likes the interest I have found in yoga and dance. (Can't do weights or dance for a few weeks since I recently had surgery.

Does that sound like you? Would it be helpful to print it out and show her someone else feels like you do? Sometimes it can be helpful to hear it from someone else.




> my huge struggle is that i get mixed messages. she has asked me to help her with food purchasing, with "training" her. she voices that she wants to lose weight and that she wants me to "push" her. however, it goes in cycles. one day, she wants me to help. the next, she gets frustrated that I try to motivate her to go to the gym with me. I don't know. whatever


Yah that can be frustrating. I am the same way. And DH has trouble balancing when do I want to be pushed and when do I ant to go my own way. View this as a JOURNEY not something that is going to happen in one day.

After my daughter was born, which was 7 years ago, I was quite large. Size 16 pants, I cannot remember the weight. So was he. We each made changes separately and together. We learned over time. Step one was to just stop even BUYING the junk food. Yes we slipped at first. But now to find potato chips in our pantry is very rare, only when we entertain. Now saltines and cereal are considered junk food. 

I started by doing Paula Abdul dance videos (not the height of fitness) in my living room. Now I enjoy West African dance (a challenging cardio form of dance), free weight training, challenging yoga, all sorts of aerobics... It took a long time. Not just physically but the confidence. Being able to view me as that person who can do that. Before I thought of myself as not that person.

Best of luck.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> Women who change their bodies to please men are generally pathetic creatures (I was one).


What is wrong with doing something to please your partner? Perhaps your partner was a jerk? I think you are projecting BIG TIME here.



> A woman who loves the body God gave her,


Whoever is giving out bodies, whoever this god person is, also gave us minds to make choices.


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