# When the blinders come off but you are still n love



## NJ2 (Mar 22, 2017)

Went to MC yesterday. Basically she said that I need to stop investigating. The need to investigate is driven by the hope that finding the truth and proving to him he is lieing he will have an aha moment and stop. This is a fantasy. He will not stop and I cant change him. It was a bit of an epiphany. I realized that was the driving force behind all the snooping. Here I can prove you lied admit it and stop. She said that hope is futile- not going to happen. She asked if i can live in a marriage where there is no trust? I said I can for most things- I love him, I dont care if he lies. But I do care if he is seeing someone else and if he is lieing abut his contact with other women. That is what i need him to stop doing. The rest I dont care about. Really I dont. It would be an annoyance if he lied about why he was late- he stopped for a beer but says he was stuck in traffic. I dont care -that is his problem. But if he stopped for a beer with a female coworker and lied about it that is a bigger issue. That I cant deal with any longer.

When speaking about this I sited the fact that I dont want to be like my mother who was suspicious of my dad in his 80's - everytime he went to mcdonalds on a saturday morning....She was right. He was meeting a woman there and after her husband died he started to walk her home to her condo....when he was in the hospital OW walked by him- she was dieing as well and saw it was him- she came over and was rubbing her hand up and down his bare leg while she talked to him...a level of intimacy that would suggest she was not "just a friend". 

I said I didnt want to be in that position 20 years from now. He actually defended my dad and said "so what if he was just being a nice guy? so what if he was meeting a nice lady for coffee and walked her home every week- why is that such a big deal? Hes just being a good guy, he was being friendly and helpful....I almost threw up....this is how he feels

Really? Thats how you feel? It was devastating to me to witness that. It was a huge betrayal to my mom. She hated that he went every week and would be gone for hours- she was never allowed to go. It was a huge breach of boundaries...and he thinks its not a big deal? I give up. I give up. I give up. @drifting on -I'm sorry. I have tried....so ****ing hard.

MC said I need to stop trying to get him to understand how i feel. Hes not stupid. He knows how you feel. He knows when hes lieing you dont need to prove it to him. Nothing you can do will change his behaviour. This realization of being so helpless has saddened me beyond belief. 

She said I can learn to accept him as an imperfect human being. I can learn to acknowledge that it will never change. I can look upon this fault with affection. (WTF???!!!) I left and didnt book another appointment. We got out and H asked why I didnt book another appointment? I said Its not working. 2 years and we are in the same place. I wanted to say you just dont get it but then i remembered he does get it. 

I said I will spend nights at the farmhouse after the kids are in bed. I dont want them to know- as both will be in exams. He said if i sleep at the farm he will tell them- since i'm so big on honesty ....he will tell them about my A from 25 years ago. 

I feel lost and alone. OMG I am so sad. 

Maybe I can do the 180. **** this hurts so bad.

NJ2- formerly Nurse Jackie (password screw up)


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Your counselor is right. It's time for you to start the 180.

And it's time for you to see a divorce lawyer.

I'm sorry that it has come to this.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

@NJ2,

Did you try resetting your password? What happened.

I would really like to get you back into your nursejackie account.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

If he's threatening to tell the kids whatever anyway, you might as well beat him to the punch and do it yourself.

Also, there's nothing wrong with a married man befriending another woman.

That is, of course, unless he fails to disclose the "friendship" to his wife, outright lies to her about it, denies it, lies about the true nature of the "friendship", etc.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> If he's threatening to tell the kids whatever anyway, you might as well beat him to the punch and do it yourself.
> 
> Also, there's nothing wrong with a married man befriending another woman.
> 
> That is, of course, unless he fails to disclose the "friendship" to his wife, outright lies to her about it, denies it, lies about the true nature of the "friendship", etc.


If anyone is going to tell the kids, then it should be in controlled setting. My suggestion is that talk to the marriage counselor and set up a family meeting where the two parents explain that their marriage is in crisis, that the wife had an affair 25 years ago and reconciled and that the husband has just had an affair and there is going to be a need for some separation while the wife processes this and the husband works on reconciliation. Then allow the kids to ask questions to the marriage counselor and possibly the parents.

One parent telling of an affair to the children is a situation that screams out "please support me against my evil spouse." If the kids are told now, they should hear both sides and be allowed even some free time to talk without the parents to the marriage counselor to get their fears addressed as best possible.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> If anyone is going to tell the kids, then it should be in controlled setting. My suggestion is that talk to the marriage counselor and set up a family meeting where the two parents explain that their marriage is in crisis, that the wife had an affair 25 years ago and reconciled and that the husband has just had an affair and there is going to be a need for some separation while the wife processes this and the husband works on reconciliation. Then allow the kids to ask questions to the marriage counselor and possibly the parents.
> 
> One parent telling of an affair to the children is a situation that screams out "please support me against my evil spouse." If the kids are told now, they should hear both sides and be allowed even some free time to talk without the parents to the marriage counselor to get their fears addressed as best possible.


You're talking about the _ideal_ way to handle such a conversation.

Her husband doesn't sound like the type of guy to go for any of that.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

NJ2

You have no reason to apologize to me or anyone here at TAM for how you feel, also for what you are going to do. At some point I think we all could see your husband wasn't going to commit to being what you needed. To stop lying, to admit his transgressions with his boss, to explain the women from the strip clubs. No, your husband has taken a stoic stance to the truth. I am so very sad for you, you have grown as a person here and should be proud of the efforts you have made. But it can't be done by just one person, it takes both to commit, and you haven't gotten that from your husband. 

Whatever you choose to do going forward I wish you the best. I have no doubt that with your strength you will be amazing. Focus on your recovery now, focus on you and your kids, build those relationships with honesty. Be forthcoming with your kids, they are old enough and will be ok. I would consider telling your kids before your husband does, as his informing them will come from a place of vindictiveness. You don't want them to hear it in a way that is meant to cause pain. 

Praying for you Nursejackie.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

He has no right to hold your old A over your head! He chose to stay with you, so he gave up any claim to use it as leverage in the future.


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## NJ2 (Mar 22, 2017)

Meh.....I think I'm a bit nuts...ok maybe a lot nuts

I have never proven that he actually had an affair only that he has lied about going to OW's house and has deleted texts and call logs from her. He has behaved in a way that certainly suggested EA at least. He sort of admitted that there was an EA but he didnt have any romantic feelings for her. The kids know about this suspicion and dont believe that there was anything behind it. They know who OW is and the mere fact she is unattractive seemed to take her off the possibility table.

After the last MC and my rant on here - I did a very good thing. I erased all my files, trackings, phone logs, on my computer and tore up every notebook. I threw out my VAR info (it never amounted to anything anyway) and threw out all his old work phones(I'd already checked what I could on them) I deleted all the stuff i kept on my phone in reminders, notes and photos.

I told him I was not going to spend one more second worrying about what he is or isnt doing. I will never try to prove to him that he is lying- he already knows when hes lying, I wont try and convince him to understand my feelings- he already understands them. He said he was sorry that he said it was ok that my dad was meeting this woman- he knew it wasnt ok. He was angry at being constantly accused of things and lumped in with my dads bad behaviour.

When I was ripping up my "notations" I found my old diary from our first year of dating. I was very surprised to find I remembered that year very differently than it actually was. I had just come out of a 2 year relationship and although H and I were dating I clearly didnt want a boyfriend in the restrictive sense of the word. He was always telling me he loved me and I didnt answer him back for 6 months- even then i told him I loved him like i love my cat....

I also wanted to make up for the lost adventures during my LTR - I basically was "interested" in many different guys during that time. I kissed any of them that I wanted to. I went to parties, received gifts, had amazing dining experiences, went out of town, had a guy take out a personal ad in the paper saying he loved me, and the old BF was pursuing me. I was enjoying university and all that goes with it. I worked, I lived on my own and supported myself. I had hobbys, I worked out. I had many friends and good times that had nothing to do with him. I was confident, secure, funny and happy. I thought that I was all that and a bag of chips in some ways.

I didnt previously remember much of this at all. Not like it actually was anyway. At some point he asked me not to kiss anyone else but him -and I declined. His friends said they had never seen him in love before, he had never even dated except for one other girl for 3 months. They said they had never seen him so serious. He had broken many a heart of the girls who wanted more but his heart was never available until me. He talked about marrying me and asked me to change my religion- I declined. He said he would buy me a house and support me -let me live there on my own. I declined. 

After about 7 months I told him I loved him and committed to the relationship. (except for that darned A....)

My point is- how did I become this codependent? I remember being so surprised by my childhood friends reaction to my obsession with OW and all my checking. She said - What happened- where did that confident self assured girl go? Stop all this right now. Stay or leave but dont continue to do what you are doing. Accept that something may have happened and decide if you can live with not knowing. She said its a whole lot of crazy- get off the train. But I couldnt.

Maybe I lost myself with motherhood, wifehood, workhood and all the responsibilities of life. I lost that confidence and strong sense of self because I allowed it to happen. I gave up the hobbies, and interests and working out. I let the friendships dwindle and adventures narrow... It was me. I am not a victim. No one forced me to change. I allowed it.

So what now? I think I have woken up. I remember who I was. I remember that it was always me who held the cards in this relationship. I am not missing the checking behaviours. It was freeing to let all that go. I cant go back to it even if im tempted. Theres nothing to build on with all that info down the drain. I got the college catalogue and found some painting classes to take. I bought an easel, and put it in the living room at the farm overlooking the fields. 

You may want to hit me with a 2x4 for this next part. I am deciding to move forward whether he takes another poly or not. I feel like I want to put this OW stuff behind me. I feel like I can. It isnt taking up all that space in my head anymore. I feel strong and empowered. I do not feel needy, whiny, or unsure. i dont care to be suspicious. If anything has gone on- I can let it go. If anything is stiil going on then hes the sorry ass fool not me. I feel like I can change my mind and walk away if I want to. I feel like I will be just fine WHATEVER happens. I remember that girl in the diaries and she is me. 

I dont know if this positive swing has something to do with the change in seasons. I have always had a rather cyclical mood. There is mention in the diary (before I met H) that I felt like I was being sucked down a hole of despair, that at times I sat for hours not moving even my head, I was hardly eating and when i did it felt like I was being forcefed--I had not remembered any of that---In my 40's I was diagnosed by a psychiatrist once with dysrythmia or something like that. Because I like the high moods (they are not extreme like bipolar) I have never wanted or needed to be leveled out. I do take wellbutrin for the lows which can be extreme.

This also pulls into question - was all the obsession and paranoia partly due to depression? Was it the cause or the result? I know it played an important factor in helping me deal with the stress/anger and grief of watching my parents die their long slow deaths. Whenever I was feeling overwhelmed I would busy myself with checking behaviours and notations. It was easier to deal with the possible pain of H having an EA/PA then it was to deal with the pain of losing them. I at least felt like I had control over the pain when I was doing all the sleuthing. 

When I looked at all the stuff I had- boxes of it- it certainly seemed to be the work of someone not completely sane. Despite all the notes and store receipts, bank trails, VAR recordings, google historys, phone checking, -both phones as well as the online account, I never found any conclusive proof of anything except he lied to avoid confrontations about OW. I'm not stupid enough to think nothing happened but I dont think I'll ever find out now. 

At any rate I feel strong and confident with my decision. The trick is -if you are staying with the unknown-to know that you will be fine no matter what the unknown brings.


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## NJ2 (Mar 22, 2017)

and of course all that could change again.........it dawned on me that this could just be an emotional high....they dont last forever. In case thats all this is I will try to put it to good use and get some healthy stuff established while I can. Maybe if I do enough healthy healing work I can extend the positivity.

Life is complicated. Love is complicated. The brain is enormously complicated.

Thank you for all the strength and encouragement over the past 2 years. Sometimes it felt like that was all I had to hang on to. Thank you also for allowing me to waffle and change and blow with the wind. I didnt have much choice it is how I experienced it. 

I hope 2 years from now I am still in a good place -hell I hope 2 months from now I am still in a good place.
(())


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Thor said:


> He has no right to hold your old A over your head! He chose to stay with you, so he gave up any claim to use it as leverage in the future.


To be fair, he only recently learned of it, correct?

@NJ2?


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

I know from experience with both sides of that coin, that our past behavior is a very good indicator of our future behavior. Once a cheater and all that. Sounds like a typical case of a spouse having a fantasy that all will be well once she confronts the cheater. I call that grasping at straws. First off he will not tell you the truth of his cheating. It will not help if he tells you how much better the other woman was in bed or that they had sex like bunnies. He will not say that he trash talked about you to the other women and gave her all sorts of reasons why he is cheating on you.

You will want to blame the other women because she stole him from you. He did not choose to cheat on you but rather was forced to by the other girl who hypnotised him and made him do something he did not want to do. He might even make you believe that you drove him to cheat and it is all your fault. Sounds like you may be susceptible to that well know cheater trick. He already has you going to see a MC on your own, I believe. You are seeing the problem as something you must solve and take responsibility for. You may end up apologizing to him for forcing him to cheat and promise to be a better wife and continue with MC, as you can find all over this forum. 

The problem will be that even if he gives you some BS about wanted to be with only you again and accepts your apology for making him cheat, you will be forever suspicious of him for the rest of your marriage. Every thing he does out of the usual will knot up your stomach. You will talk about his cheating, as is normal, and throw it into his face in every argument. It takes a very long time to regain trust and even if you do, it will never be the same as you used to have. That is what you are facing if you take him back, that and the very big odds that he will cheat again and resent you for being suspicious of him all the time.

You seem to be in denial but life does not go like you imagine it will. Others have their own thoughts, ideas and agender. They are not following yours. You can waste more of your life with your cheating husband or get out while you can and find someone who loves you enough not to cheat.

The problem with love is that it is a chemical reaction in our brain that cannot be willed into or out of existence. If you do not believe me, look at a man and will yourself to love him. You cannot and despite what your lover does, it does not always change your brain chemistry so you stay in love with him and helpless to change it. Humans seem to love one person at a time so the best thing you can do is to find someone else to love. That is what I did and it worked very well. That is how I met my wife of 44 years.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

NJ2 said:


> This also pulls into question - was all the obsession and paranoia partly due to depression? Was it the cause or the result? I know it played an important factor in helping me deal with the stress/anger and grief of watching my parents die their long slow deaths. Whenever I was feeling overwhelmed I would busy myself with checking behaviours and notations. It was easier to deal with the possible pain of H having an EA/PA then it was to deal with the pain of losing them. I at least felt like I had control over the pain when I was doing all the sleuthing.


Hi NJ2 - I haven't posted on your thread(s) before. But I can identify very strongly with your most recent post and especially your words above... 

I've been diagnosed with dysthymia in the past - although I remember arguing with the psychiatrist who diagnosed me because I didn't see myself as a generally "down" person and could often be pretty happy. But, when I was experiencing whatever those low periods were, I remember obsessing about things that weren't actually that important and tending to see everything from a very self-centric perspective ("They must hate me to treat me like that" vs. "They are probably just having a really crappy day/life" or "They're just a jerk"). I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've seen some pretty dramatic differences in how I perceive things depending on my emotional state. I know that something as concrete as our pain thresholds can be affected by depression, so it makes total sense that we'd respond so variably to other stimuli as well. 

For me, the issue here would be understanding when to listen to my intuition ... and when to say "Nah - it's just the depression-induced paranoia. Ignore it" (however one does that). I get that our emotional state affects our ability to cope with problems, but to think that they also affect our ability to decide whether there's a problem at all? Sigh.  

I think that keeping a diary like you have sounds like an amazing way of objectively observing and understanding yourself over long periods of time. Perhaps I missed it, but have you tried IC just for yourself? I've found it very helpful in recent months (with the right therapist - the wrong one just sucks). 

I also wanted to share that when I was put on Wellbutrin for my (more recent major) depression, I definitely saw mostly good changes in my mood and personality. But, I also had a much shorter temper than usual and had far less empathy for those I love. I also wouldn't say that I was less optimistic exactly, but maybe the word might be ... cynical? Maybe that could also be having an impact? If you see similar things, it might be worth mentioning your thoughts around this to the medical specialist who prescribes Wellbutrin for you. FWIW, the psychiatrist who treated me told me, semi-off-the-record, that exercise was probably one of the best treatments for milder forms of depression. (As soon as I find the time/energy to test out this hypothesis, I'll get right back to you!)

Anyway, many thoughts with you... and a hug.


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## NJ2 (Mar 22, 2017)

GusPolinski said:


> To be fair, he only recently learned of it, correct?
> 
> @NJ2?


Yes I told him after I was on TAM for awhile because I was suspicious of something going on between him and OW. After I fessed up to my A on my original thread I was 2x4'd big time for being a hypocrite and behaving cowardly. He had a right to know what I did and to make decisions based on that knowledge. I agreed and told him. It was devastating to him. He cried and screamed and threw up countless times. He also said he loved me and would work through it. He went to church courses for marriage to try to learn to forgive and to become a better partner. I went to some of them. I told him I would tell him anything he wanted to know no matter how humiliating. I would take a poly to assure him it was a one time thing (6 mos) never before and never after and no PIV or oral. He believed me and said it wasnt necessary.

He has put my A behind him for the most part unless I bring up something about OW.


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## NJ2 (Mar 22, 2017)

Mizzbak said:


> Hi NJ2 - I haven't posted on your thread(s) before. But I can identify very strongly with your most recent post and especially your words above...
> 
> I've been diagnosed with dysthymia in the past - although I remember arguing with the psychiatrist who diagnosed me because I didn't see myself as a generally "down" person and could often be pretty happy. But, when I was experiencing whatever those low periods were, I remember obsessing about things that weren't actually that important and tending to see everything from a very self-centric perspective ("They must hate me to treat me like that" vs. "They are probably just having a really crappy day/life" or "They're just a jerk"). I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've seen some pretty dramatic differences in how I perceive things depending on my emotional state. I know that something as concrete as our pain thresholds can be affected by depression, so it makes total sense that we'd respond so variably to other stimuli as well.
> 
> ...


 @Mizzbak Thank you for your candid response. Now that I seem to be feeling more "normal" or on a high- I'm not really sure which- I can objectively look back at some stuff. One thing that concerns me is my misinterpretation of that old diary. I had read it maybe a year ago in the midst of all this and became very angry with H. I was convinced that what I read about our dating period was proof positive that he was a terrible boyfriend and a liar and cheat right from the beginning. I lamented to him about why I ever put up with his behaviour back then and how everything in the diary was proof positive of how I was mistreated in the relationship......

Rereading it now .....? Its completely different.... I dont understand how I could have misinterpreted it so grossly. I mean really- it was me -not him- who was busy lusting after everything that walked. It was me who wanted to sow my oats after ending a LTR. I clearly stated on one page "I dont know what love is but surely it doesnt mean never being able to kiss other people....fidelity doesnt mean you can never be with someone else..." He was the one saying I love you and I wouldnt respond. He was talking marriage and commitment and I was the one evading the issue. How on earth did I misconstrue the evidence so markedly? I remember reading the diary at a furtive pace and writing down dates and getting worked up over every bit of evidence of his failure as a BF.......

This all makes me feel very uncomfortable. It makes me feel like there is a possibility that I am seriously ****ed up sometimes....There was one time long long long ago....and I hesitate to admit this- but hey its all anonymous...there was a time when I became obsessed with thinking I was somehow connected with aliens. No ****- that is what I thought. I didnt tell people cuz I knew it sounded crazy. I wrote to an author on the subject about why I felt I had been contacted or chosen....I thought my son had been chosen as well...I was at times terrified by the idea. I dont know how long the obsession lasted maybe 6 mos? I was researching and making notes of evidence....eventually the idea was gone- I thought hmmmm well that was a weird thing to think....and never exalmined it again- H knew about this- he would listen and just accept that I had some weird ideas. He attributed it to a high IQ-(its in the 98th percentile) he thought i just saw things more abstractly than some people. 

I cant remember why I thought the diary had even been clear evidence of his infidelity- I cant find hardly any references to any philandering other than my own. There is one day where someone had asked if they met me with him at a bar and I say no. I question him about it and he says it was me with him. I look back in the journal and yup- we were there together. There is almost constant reference to my own interpretation of our relationship as being one where I wasnt obligated to be faithful because there had not been any specific rules laid out. In my words "without a specific oral contract being discussed the level of commitment in the relationship is purely based on the amount each individual wants to put into it". I justified being with other people based on that.

I also am thinking about some of the VAR recordings. There was one where I felt there was clear evidence of sexual noises and another womans voice. When I listened later the womans voice was mine and there were zero sexual noises. 

Is it possible that I didnt see what I thought i saw at the wedding? (OW winking and sticking her tongue out)
Is it possible that the BJ noises didnt exist?
Is it possible that much of this has been paranoia/delusion and projection from my own A guilt at a time when I was depressed and extremely conflicted in the emotions surrounding my parents. (their affairs- both had at least 2 ) They were talking about them often during my Mom's final days. I was trying to be supportive under the circumstances but it made me angry and disparaging towards them inside)

MC has said all along that all of this is 80% on me. The lieing is his but the suspicion and paranoia are mine (fueled by his lying which was fueled by my explosive anger and extreme attempts to control what he was doing)

Last night when we were talking about all this -calmly- was the first time I have ever seen my A as more damaging than anything he has done.(if I have the truth) I really felt that I was ultimately the victim in all this. I can now see that what I did was a far more evil thing. It was planned, it was long, it was purely cake eating, I was coming home to him after being emotionally and physically with OM and climbing into bed with him as though nothing had happened over and over again. Pure evil.

He said he doesnt want to take another poly but will. He says he can say with confidence he has done nothing sexual/romantic for the last 20 years with anyone other than me. 

If he is extremely conflict avoidant and I have been extremely paranoid and delusional at times it is possible there wasnt much with OW. An EA to be sure while I was struggling with my health and depression -maybe a PA too? But he has had a level of commitment to me greater than ever before. (MC, IC, the weekend marriage retreat, 2 church based courses on how to be a better partner, the physical work he has done on the farm, the sexual and emotional intimacy that has been on a deeper level than ever before, the new pursuit of common interests and hobbies with me instead of with his friends....)

He has stated that over the past 2 years through all this he has come to know and love me more than he ever has. He has admitted that he had been treating the marriage more like a business arrangement. You do your thing I do mine, we raise the kids, we have sex nothing deeper needed. This is what he saw in his parents marriage. Feelings of any kind were discouraged.

So I dont know how to feel.
I will go to some IC before we go back to MC. I think I will also ask for another psychiatric evaluation. Maybe this has been more damaging than I think.

So that may be a whole new problem.


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