# Emotional affair plus confusion



## DTG

Hello all.
Im a young husband seeking an ear to hear and to listen to any advice.

We have been together 6 years and married 4 years and have two daughters 2yo and 9month old.
Ive neglected my wife emotionaly due to stresses of work and having the children, ive always been abit insecure, introverted and "needy", not so much now but it is a factor in this mess.
My wife has had messed up life of abuse and neglect and upon meeting me i was her source of happiness and comfort. However i did not always live up to her expectations as i was unexperienced (shes my one and only).
As of today this is what shes told me.

Shes not sure she is in love with me.
She doesnt trust me to consistently be there emotionaly for her.
She feels unfufilled and unaccepted.
She has meet a man online who flirts with her and makes her feel good and sexy, this man is also suicidal so she feels the need to help him and thus spends hours on the ph to him giggling and being "jokingly" flirty.
Her ex bf reached out to her as he was going through a breakup, is suicidal and told her he still loves her, she has phoned him a few times.
Her sex drive has shot up as she didnt believe my compliments but believes theirs.

I feel like i cant put my foot down and tell her to break off the ph calls and put boundries on her contacting them as she does not trust me to be any different from the past. What do i do? Try and prove myself different then ask her to stop? Or suddenly become assertive and put my foot down and maybe shel see that as an improvement? Or shel see it as selfish and not understanding of me to want that, as it makes her and the other guys happy.


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## Tilted 1

Marriage is 50/50 infidelity is all hers. Do what you must. Repent and ask her what it will take to show you true change of heart, but if you drop the ball. There's no repeats or do overs.


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## TJW

I'm going to throw the horse$hit flag here:



DTG said:


> Shes not sure she is in love with me. *H$*
> She doesnt trust me to consistently be there emotionaly for her. _*H$*_
> She feels unfufilled and unaccepted. *H$*
> She has meet a man online who flirts with her and makes her feel good and sexy
> Her ex bf reached out to her as he was going through a breakup, is suicidal *H$*


Ok, now there you have it, straight from the horse's mouth... (or other horse body part).....
The only one of her statements which is not *H$ *is online man flirts and makes her feel good and sexy

This has NOTHING to do with you. Nothing at all. Your wife is a concupiscent, lustful, sinful, LYING woman who likes having her sensibilities tittelated.
That's all. That's the ugly truth. Accept it for what it is. Ain't you. HER. She is plainly amoral.

This is my advice to you. TO HELL with how she is going to think about you, how she "can't trust" you, yada, yada, yada.....It ain't you. HER.

Tell her that you have NO DESIRE to be married to anyone like her. She either stops the *H$ *and starts living up to the promise she made before God and
witnesses to "keep herself only unto" you, and "forsake all others", or you will be GONE.


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## DTG

Tilted 1 said:


> Marriage is 50/50 infidelity is all hers. Do what you must. Repent and ask her what it will take to show you true change of heart, but if you drop the ball. There's no repeats or do overs.


Thanks for reply. I have repented in the past but i know for myself this time is different for me as i can actually see what changes need to be made to me. This is definitely my last chance so im not sure i can ask for her to tell me what SHE needs as "i should know" so its just guess work really


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## Tilted 1

DTG said:


> Thanks for reply. I have repented in the past but i know for myself this time is different for me as i can actually see what changes need to be made to me. This is definitely my last chance so im not sure i can ask for her to tell me what SHE needs as "i should know" so its just guess work really


But time changes most things and relationships are a living and breathing entity.


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## DTG

TJW said:


> I'm going to throw the horse$hit flag here:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, now there you have it, straight from the horse's mouth... (or other horse body part).....
> The only one of her statements which is not *H$ *is online man flirts and makes her feel good and sexy
> 
> This has NOTHING to do with you. Nothing at all. Your wife is a concupiscent, lustful, sinful, LYING woman who likes having her sensibilities tittelated.
> That's all. That's the ugly truth. Accept it for what it is. Ain't you. HER. She is plainly amoral.
> 
> This is my advice to you. TO HELL with how she is going to think about you, how she "can't trust" you, yada, yada, yada.....It ain't you. HER.
> 
> Tell her that you have NO DESIRE to be married to anyone like her. She either stops the *H$ *and starts living up to the promise she made before God and
> witnesses to "keep herself only unto" you, and "forsake all others", or you will be GONE.


Your not wrong there. One minor problem is that because of difficult family circumstances we got married at the office so it doesnt seem as "real" but your right. I cant stand much more of this €rap. She does so much stuff that i would never get away with. Thanks for the kick up the @rse


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## Tilted 1

DTG said:


> Thanks for reply. I have repented in the past but i know for myself this time is different for me as i can actually see what changes need to be made to me. This is definitely my last chance so im not sure i can ask for her to tell me what SHE needs as "i should know" so its just guess work really


Then for starters apply who you know to be true, and renforce, it with her in the mix, if you don't involve her your just talking to yourself in the mirror.


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## DTG

Tilted 1 said:


> But time changes most things and relationships are a living and breathing entity.


Yes i can only be the man i need to be and hope she listens to her guilt and steps up


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## DTG

Tilted 1 said:


> Then for starters apply who you know to be true, and renforce, it with her in the mix, if you don't involve her your just talking to yourself in the mirror.


Thanks. Theres a long road ahead


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## BluesPower

So I dont get some of the responses here. Maybe I am missing something...

Your wife is having, at least an emotional affair, with 2 or is it three guys???? She thinks you are just dead space. 

Is her ex BF local? If he is, she is sleeping with atleat him, if not others. 

Honestly, don't you see that? And, you are wondering what you should do? 

REALLY? You cannot figure that out? 

How about this, YOU FILE FOR DIVORCE AND tell he to go live with her BF, or one of the others...


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## Yeswecan

DTG said:


> Hello all.
> Im a young husband seeking an ear to hear and to listen to any advice.
> 
> We have been together 6 years and married 4 years and have two daughters 2yo and 9month old.
> Ive neglected my wife emotionaly due to stresses of work and having the children, ive always been abit insecure, introverted and "needy", not so much now but it is a factor in this mess.
> My wife has had messed up life of abuse and neglect and upon meeting me i was her source of happiness and comfort. However i did not always live up to her expectations as i was unexperienced (shes my one and only).
> As of today this is what shes told me.
> 
> Shes not sure she is in love with me.
> She doesnt trust me to consistently be there emotionaly for her.
> She feels unfufilled and unaccepted.
> She has meet a man online who flirts with her and makes her feel good and sexy, this man is also suicidal so she feels the need to help him and thus spends hours on the ph to him giggling and being "jokingly" flirty.
> Her ex bf reached out to her as he was going through a breakup, is suicidal and told her he still loves her, she has phoned him a few times.
> Her sex drive has shot up as she didnt believe my compliments but believes theirs.
> 
> I feel like i cant put my foot down and tell her to break off the ph calls and put boundries on her contacting them as she does not trust me to be any different from the past. What do i do? Try and prove myself different then ask her to stop? Or suddenly become assertive and put my foot down and maybe shel see that as an improvement? Or shel see it as selfish and not understanding of me to want that, as it makes her and the other guys happy.


Sir, you will not accept sharing your W with OM. Flirty phone call non-sense. The xbf who is suicidal, suggest he gets counseling. Your W is not schooled in counseling those that are suicidal. More than likely this OM is only using this suicidal as a ploy to keep you W on the line.

Yeah, boundaries. Get them. Next get yourselves to a marriage counselor.


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## Tilted 1

DTG said:


> Yes i can only be the man i need to be and hope she listens to her guilt and steps up


She has conpartmentalize's this don't rely on guilt on her part.


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## DTG

BluesPower said:


> So I dont get some of the responses here. Maybe I am missing something...
> 
> Your wife is having, at least an emotional affair, with 2 or is it three guys???? She thinks you are just dead space.
> 
> Is her ex BF local? If he is, she is sleeping with atleat him, if not others.
> 
> Honestly, don't you see that? And, you are wondering what you should do?
> 
> REALLY? You cannot figure that out?
> 
> How about this, YOU FILE FOR DIVORCE AND tell he to go live with her BF, or one of the others...


Ones in a different country and ones in a different city. The ex phoned her at 4am as he needed someone to talk to cus of his desperation at his situation. And i know his situation is real its just that my wife is vunerable at the moment. I know im abit optimistic but she has helped people like this in the past. The other guy she meet on an online game and is suicidal cus his little kid was killed. I hear what your saying tho, thanks alot for that


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## Laurentium

Or, tell her you are suicidal. Apparently she finds that hot.


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## DTG

Yeswecan said:


> Sir, you will not accept sharing your W with OM. Flirty phone call non-sense. The xbf who is suicidal, suggest he gets counseling. Your W is not schooled in counseling those that are suicidal. More than likely this OM is only using this suicidal as a ploy to keep you W on the line.
> 
> Yeah, boundaries. Get them. Next get yourselves to a marriage counselor.


Thanks alot. We are in lockdown which doesnt help the counseling situation haha. She has helped suicidal people before as she has been that way herself but i feel at least one of the guys has crossed the line emotionally for sure.


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## DTG

Laurentium said:


> Or, tell her you are suicidal. Apparently she finds that hot.


Hah ill be a real dramatic cry baby then


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## TJW

DTG said:


> One minor problem is that because of difficult family circumstances we got married at the office so it doesnt seem as "real"


Actually, this is a MAJOR problem. There is no problem with your ceremony being conducted at the office. The problem is that your marriage is REAL to you, and NOT REAL to your wife.

Her marriage would not be any more "real" to her if it was done in the Vatican by the Pope. She likes the thrill of playing around with other men. Plain, and simple. She is promiscuous.



DTG said:


> i did not always live up to her expectations as i was unexperienced (shes my one and only).


Her promiscuity began before her marriage, and has continued, likely, throughout her marriage. Let me ask you a rhetorical question.....

Who, in the days before your marriage to her, was "at fault" for her promiscuity ??

Whoever that was.....is the same person who is at fault for her promiscuity now.



DTG said:


> its just that my wife is vunerable at the moment. *H$*


Your wife, whatever "vulnerability" she has now, is the same "vulnerability" she had before her marriage. Her "vulnerability" is a CHOICE. Otherwise, the traditional marriage vows, which have been around for hundreds of years, would not require that she CHOOSE to be "invulnerable" in a solemn oath before God.



DTG said:


> i did not always live up to her expectations


These vows also give rise to the acceptation of another person with full knowledge that this other person may not always "live up" to expectations, but promises to keep one's own love, honor, and cherish going in spite of that. It's a CHOICE.

Your wife has CHOSEN to ignore these vows, and she has done so because she lacks the moral fortitude required for successful marriage.


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## DTG

Good points. Thank you. I do feel like the problems are actually quite immature.


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## Marduk

I have a funny feeling that your ideas about yourself and your behavior in this marriage may have become extremely distorted by what she wants to be true about you.

Meaning, her BS gaslighting has gotten into your head. Everything you've said about yourself is everything that cheaters tell their spouses all the time as excuses for their cheating. The only difference is that you seem to be believing it all.

Run. Run like the wind. She's confused? Be loving and show her the door so she can figure it out. And when she's gone, you go into therapy to decide what is true about you and what isn't.

I personally was in with multiple therapists and support groups for a year before I let it sink in that 99% of what my ex wife had me believing was true about myself... was actually just manipulative gaslighting from a very disturbed person.


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## Tdbo

You need blow up her world and take control of the situation.
Tell you that you understand that he is her world and all you want is her happiness.
Have her get in contact with him on line (while you are there) and tell him that she wants to be with him, she is leaving you for him and she is arranging travel to be with him. Do everything you can to facilitate this.
Tell you that you are buying her a new set of "Luggage". Get your trash bags together (Don't be cheap, get the Hefty heavy duty ones) and start bagging up all her stuff. If you can, take her to her folks, a relative, or a friends house. Tell her your attorney will be in touch with her. Then go 180. Be Cold. Cruel. Heartless.
*I doubt that you will even need to gather the trash bags before you get her attention . *Have a list of demands ready (everything you need is on this site and much is in this thread.) 
You need to get her attention and take charge. If she wants to be married to you, she will quickly start to remove her cranium from her anal cavity. If she doesn't, then you know what you have, and you can begin the process of formulating the next steps.


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## bobert

So, personally, I don't think your marriage is totally doomed. Yet. It WILL be doomed if your wife doesn't step it up. Granted, I am biased and it won't be an easy road - at all.

Your wife absolutely needs to get therapy for herself to deal with her past. No exceptions. If she won't agree to therapy, and A LOT of it, then you don't have a chance. If she won't put in a 100% effort and allow someone to help her, then you don't have a chance.

You absolutely need to put your foot down and establish boundaries. There is a difference between standing your ground, telling her what you will and will not accept going forward, and being an ***hole. If you are going to let her call the shots and walk all over you because of her past, then you don't have a chance.

Many years ago, early in my relationship, I was being an ***hole, my wife felt neglected, and she met a guy. They bonded over their ****ty childhoods and their suicidal tendencies. She wasn't sure if she wanted to be with me or not. She didn't trust me. She didn't feel loved or appreciated. She felt like he understood her. She felt closer to him than anyone else. Then she wound up ****ing him for 4 years and procreated with him.

Nip it in the bud. Now.

There are two books that I would recommend BOTH of you read:

1. Trust After Trauma: A Guide to Relationships for Survivors and Those Who Love Them

2. Not "Just Friends": Rebuilding Trust and Recovering Your Sanity After Infidelity (good regardless of infidelity or not).

There are others as well, depending on what type of abuse she suffered, but those are two good ones. If she won't even read those, then you are doomed.


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## TJW

DTG said:


> Good points. Thank you. I do feel like the problems are actually quite immature.


Yes, your wife is quite immature. And, she is the problem.


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## TJW

Marduk said:


> Everything you've said about yourself is everything that cheaters tell their spouses all the time as excuses for their cheating. The only difference is that you seem to be believing it all.


And, it's not different from the way many of us were, when it happened. I started out believing it, considering myself the problem, until I finally unraveled the whole sordid story she told. 

I had one very wonderful christian counselor at the time, whose favorite question to me was ".....chapter, and verse ???.... where does THE BIBLE say you are supposed to have sex for an hour ??.....where does THE BIBLE say you are supposed to have a 9-inch penis ??....where does THE BIBLE say you are supposed to make another person happy ??.."


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## DTG

Marduk said:


> I have a funny feeling that your ideas about yourself and your behavior in this marriage may have become extremely distorted by what she wants to be true about you.
> 
> Meaning, her BS gaslighting has gotten into your head. Everything you've said about yourself is everything that cheaters tell their spouses all the time as excuses for their cheating. The only difference is that you seem to be believing it all.
> 
> Run. Run like the wind. She's confused? Be loving and show her the door so she can figure it out. And when she's gone, you go into therapy to decide what is true about you and what isn't.
> 
> I personally was in with multiple therapists and support groups for a year before I let it sink in that 99% of what my ex wife had me believing was true about myself... was actually just manipulative gaslighting from a very disturbed person.


Your definitely right to a degree. My self insecurity has always led to me questioning myself rather then stepping up and just being a "man". I want to be the man who has set morals and abides by them no matter what. Not the man who panders to others. And i suppose todays the day to not stand for anymore bull


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## DTG

Tdbo said:


> You need blow up her world and take control of the situation.
> Tell you that you understand that he is her world and all you want is her happiness.
> Have her get in contact with him on line (while you are there) and tell him that she wants to be with him, she is leaving you for him and she is arranging travel to be with him. Do everything you can to facilitate this.
> Tell you that you are buying her a new set of "Luggage". Get your trash bags together (Don't be cheap, get the Hefty heavy duty ones) and start bagging up all her stuff. If you can, take her to her folks, a relative, or a friends house. Tell her your attorney will be in touch with her. Then go 180. Be Cold. Cruel. Heartless.
> *I doubt that you will even need to gather the trash bags before you get her attention . *Have a list of demands ready (everything you need is on this site and much is in this thread.)
> You need to get her attention and take charge. If she wants to be married to you, she will quickly start to remove her cranium from her anal cavity. If she doesn't, then you know what you have, and you can begin the process of formulating the next steps.


If the main OM wasnt fat and twice her age i would seriously consider that move. Haha but yes theres only room in her heart for feelings for one man. Choose.


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## DTG

bobert said:


> So, personally, I don't think your marriage is totally doomed. Yet. It WILL be doomed if your wife doesn't step it up. Granted, I am biased and it won't be an easy road - at all.
> 
> Your wife absolutely needs to get therapy for herself to deal with her past. No exceptions. If she won't agree to therapy, and A LOT of it, then you don't have a chance. If she won't put in a 100% effort and allow someone to help her, then you don't have a chance.
> 
> You absolutely need to put your foot down and establish boundaries. There is a difference between standing your ground, telling her what you will and will not accept going forward, and being an ***hole. If you are going to let her call the shots and walk all over you because of her past, then you don't have a chance.
> 
> Many years ago, early in my relationship, I was being an ***hole, my wife felt neglected, and she met a guy. They bonded over their ****ty childhoods and their suicidal tendencies. She wasn't sure if she wanted to be with me or not. She didn't trust me. She didn't feel loved or appreciated. She felt like he understood her. She felt closer to him than anyone else. Then she wound up ****ing him for 4 years and procreated with him.
> 
> Nip it in the bud. Now.
> 
> There are two books that I would recommend BOTH of you read:
> 
> 1. Trust After Trauma: A Guide to Relationships for Survivors and Those Who Love Them
> 
> 2. Not "Just Friends": Rebuilding Trust and Recovering Your Sanity After Infidelity (good regardless of infidelity or not).
> 
> There are others as well, depending on what type of abuse she suffered, but those are two good ones. If she won't even read those, then you are doomed.


Sorry to hear that. Yes getting her to talk to someone is a must. Ive had enough of the "i dont feel true to myself or accepted" excuse just because she wont tell the whole truth about her past. She knows im accepting and loving to her not matter what shes revealed to me.


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## anchorwatch

@DTG, Standing up for yourself doesn't mean you have to be a prick, but don't be this man... Mr. Nice Guy


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## Marduk

DTG said:


> Your definitely right to a degree. My self insecurity has always led to me questioning myself rather then stepping up and just being a "man". I want to be the man who has set morals and abides by them no matter what. Not the man who panders to others. And i suppose todays the day to not stand for anymore bull


I was that guy, too. I trusted her 100% - which meant that if she said something about me, I believed it.

I mean, she was my life partner. My soulmate. My One True Love.

Turns out she was just a lazy, manipulative, selfish, deceitful woman with zero integrity. She didn't just fool me - she fooled everyone is my only consolation for being fooled so badly.


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## Tdbo

DTG said:


> If the main OM wasnt fat and twice her age i would seriously consider that move. Haha but yes theres only room in her heart for feelings for one man. Choose.


Him being rotund and 2x her age isn't the issue.
The fact that he is inhabiting the real estate betwixt her ears, controlling your relationship, and holding you in limbo is.
You need to regain agency in your relationship and get a handle on things.
She will either respect that and start working her way out of her fog, or you will know where you stand.
If it is the latter, best for you to cut bait and find a woman that wants you as their first choice.


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## DTG

Marduk said:


> I was that guy, too. I trusted her 100% - which meant that if she said something about me, I believed it.
> 
> I mean, she was my life partner. My soulmate. My One True Love.
> 
> Turns out she was just a lazy, manipulative, selfish, deceitful woman with zero integrity. She didn't just fool me - she fooled everyone is my only consolation for being fooled so badly.


Sounds familiar in many ways


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## DTG

Tdbo said:


> Him being rotund and 2x her age isn't the issue.
> The fact that he is inhabiting the real estate betwixt her ears, controlling your relationship, and holding you in limbo is.
> You need to regain agency in your relationship and get a handle on things.
> She will either respect that and start working her way out of her fog, or you will know where you stand.
> If it is the latter, best for you to cut bait and find a woman that wants you as their first choice.


I have seen abit of progress since stepping back and showing i can be happy with the kids and without her. Its going to be a looonng tricky road but im grateful that ill come out of it a better man, with or without her


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## DTG

Update.
So i asked her about the nature of her flirting and asked what she thinks is appropiate and all i can say is she is not used to me being assertive and took it as an attack on her personality. So ye no wedding ring on her finger anymore


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## anchorwatch

You are correct, She is not used to you being assertive. You rocked her boat. The boat being her usual control. 

Good for you standing up for yourself and taking a step to move your life forward. "When we know better we do better" 

Best


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## DTG

anchorwatch said:


> You are correct, She is not used to you being assertive. You rocked her boat. The boat being her usual control.
> 
> Good for you standing up for yourself and taking a step to move your life forward. "When we know better we do better"
> 
> Best


She says i ruined my last chance. I listened to her have ph sex multiple times in my bed. So gutted but hope is not lost yet. I just dont know how i can get another chance to prove myself capable of showing that love she craves. Stupid i know......


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## Marduk

DTG said:


> She says i ruined my last chance. I listened to her have ph sex multiple times in my bed. So gutted but hope is not lost yet. I just dont know how i can get another chance to prove myself capable of showing that love she craves. Stupid i know......


It's over.
You can't walk that one back.
Take off your ring. Ask her to leave the house, and if she won't do that, ask her to leave the bedroom.
Record her phone sex sessions. I know that sounds icky, but at some point she'll be claiming that none of this happened, and you made it all up. Trust me.
Call a lawyer. Make an appointment. Scan in all important documents and keep the copies somewhere else, or in the cloud. Change all your passwords. Get any family heirlooms that are just yours out of the house and away from where she can get them.
Try to exercise, eat right, get some sleep, and avoid booze.
Make your own bank account, and your checks now go there. Close all shared credit cards, lines of credit, everything, and open your own.
Be fair - you're still legally married - but have your own agency and control of your life.
Be a super dad. Explain to the kids that you and mom aren't going to live together any more. I know that's harsh, but it's over. It will also make your soon to be ex wife understand the reality of the situation.
Be gone a lot. Do not explain where you're going or who you're going there with. Be single (except dating). When you do see her, have a smile on your face, act relieved to be rid of her, and refuse to discuss anything but logistics about the kids and the divorce.
Realize that your wife is not your friend, not your partner, not your anything except your enemy right now. Your goal shouldn't be getting back together, it should be co-parenting in peace. And peace can't be had when one side controls everything.
Do everything your lawyer says.
Trust me on this.


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## anchorwatch

DTG said:


> She says i ruined my last chance. I listened to her have ph sex multiple times in my bed. So gutted but hope is not lost yet. I just dont know how i can get another chance to prove myself capable of showing that love she craves. Stupid i know......


You said... "with or without her" That's the stance you must believe in! You must believe you deserve better, we all deserve better. Drop the emotional rope.

Follow the "180" behaviors. 

Do not do the "Pick Me Dance"


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## MJJEAN

DTG said:


> Thanks for reply. I have repented in the past but i know for myself this time is different for me as i can actually see what changes need to be made to me. This is definitely my last chance so im not sure i can ask for her to tell me what SHE needs as "i should know" so its just guess work really


Woah, woah, woah! Why the hell is this _your_ last chance? She's the mentally unstable lying cheater who manipulates _you_ and you're on thin ice? Holy smokes!!!



DTG said:


> Yes i can only be the man i need to be and hope she listens to her guilt and steps up


Hint: Than man you'd need to be is the man who would walk. She does not respect weakness and you are oozing weakness because she is all you know and you're scared to be on your own, dating, etc.



DTG said:


> Sorry to hear that. Yes getting her to talk to someone is a must. Ive had enough of the "i dont feel true to myself or accepted" excuse just because she wont tell the whole truth about her past. She knows im accepting and loving to her not matter what shes revealed to me.


The man you're replying to in this comment? Yeah, his wife had multiple affairs and he's currently helping raise one of her lovers' children, who was born during their marriage. She's been in therapy for years. Is that the life you want? Because that's where you're heading.



DTG said:


> She says i ruined my last chance. I listened to her have ph sex multiple times in my bed. So gutted but hope is not lost yet. I just dont know how i can get another chance to prove myself capable of showing that love she craves. Stupid i know......


So, basically, you've listened to your cheating wife have phone sex with one of her multiple affair partners and you're worried about winning her? You want to bend over backwards, surrender all dignity and self respect, in order to "win" this absolute prize of a disloyal, manipulative, mentally unstable "wife"? Good God, man, I am in shock and awe. You know there are other women out there, some of whom would love to date, screw, and marry you, right? You could do so much better. You don't know that because this piss poor excuse for a relationship is all you've known, but trust me, you could do so much better.


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## DTG

Marduk said:


> It's over.
> You can't walk that one back.
> Take off your ring. Ask her to leave the house, and if she won't do that, ask her to leave the bedroom.
> Record her phone sex sessions. I know that sounds icky, but at some point she'll be claiming that none of this happened, and you made it all up. Trust me.
> Call a lawyer. Make an appointment. Scan in all important documents and keep the copies somewhere else, or in the cloud. Change all your passwords. Get any family heirlooms that are just yours out of the house and away from where she can get them.
> Try to exercise, eat right, get some sleep, and avoid booze.
> Make your own bank account, and your checks now go there. Close all shared credit cards, lines of credit, everything, and open your own.
> Be fair - you're still legally married - but have your own agency and control of your life.
> Be a super dad. Explain to the kids that you and mom aren't going to live together any more. I know that's harsh, but it's over. It will also make your soon to be ex wife understand the reality of the situation.
> Be gone a lot. Do not explain where you're going or who you're going there with. Be single (except dating). When you do see her, have a smile on your face, act relieved to be rid of her, and refuse to discuss anything but logistics about the kids and the divorce.
> Realize that your wife is not your friend, not your partner, not your anything except your enemy right now. Your goal shouldn't be getting back together, it should be co-parenting in peace. And peace can't be had when one side controls everything.
> Do everything your lawyer says.
> Trust me on this.


Thanks. Its a comfort knowing othrrs have been through this before me. Im in lockdown for the foreseeable future which is either a blessing or itl drive us nuts haha. Im really struggling with this €rap. In the space of a few weeks it just unfolds before you eyes because you never took the hints in the past to step up. I bleedin hate it.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

DTG said:


> *...but i feel at least one of the guys has crossed the line emotionally for sure.*


You think it's one of the GUYS who have crossed the line?????? Seriously?????

What color is the air on your planet?


----------



## DTG

anchorwatch said:


> You said... "with or with out her" That's the stance you must believe in! You must believe you deserve better, we all deserve better. Drop the emotional rope.


Yes i have to get over the emotions asap. And stay focused on myself my kids and my faith.


----------



## DTG

MJJEAN said:


> Woah, woah, woah! Why the hell is this _your_ last chance? She's the mentally unstable lying cheater who manipulates _you_ and you're on thin ice? Holy smokes!!!
> 
> 
> Hint: Than man you'd need to be is the man who would walk. She does not respect weakness and you are oozing weakness because she is all you know and you're scared to be on your own, dating, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> The man you're replying to in this comment? Yeah, his wife had multiple affairs and he's currently helping raise one of her lovers' children, who was born during their marriage. She's been in therapy for years. Is that the life you want? Because that's where you're heading.
> 
> 
> 
> So, basically, you've listened to your cheating wife have phone sex with one of her multiple affair partners and you're worried about winning her? You want to bend over backwards, surrender all dignity and self respect, in order to "win" this absolute prize of a disloyal, manipulative, mentally unstable "wife"? Good God, man, I am in shock and awe. You know there are other women out there, some of whom would love to date, screw, and marry you, right? You could do so much better. You don't know that because this piss poor excuse for a relationship is all you've known, but trust me, you could do so much better.


Last chance to show im capable of being loving lol and not just frustrated. I guess i love her enough to forgive any mistake made out of vunerabililty but ye what the hell, i expected better. I expected commitment.


----------



## DTG

She'sStillGotIt said:


> You think it's one of the GUYS who have crossed the line?????? Seriously?????
> 
> What color is the air on your planet?


Ye i know. Im naive and too loyal in some regaurds. And just plain scared to lose the woman and have the kids in a broken home. Ill never give up even if i have to let her go.


----------



## anchorwatch

Again...

Follow the "180" behaviors.

Do not do the "Pick Me Dance"

Why is she in the marital bed? ...having on the phone with the OM?


----------



## BluesPower

DTG said:


> She says i ruined my last chance. I listened to her have ph sex multiple times in my bed. So gutted but hope is not lost yet. I just dont know how i can get another chance to prove myself capable of showing that love she craves. Stupid i know......


Blindingly stupid at every level. Man, do you have no self-respect at all?

What is wrong with you?

Why is she in your bed? Or what it a recording?

Why are you listening to that?

Brother, you have to get out, and away from her and stay away from her...

You need therapy... lots of it.


----------



## DTG

BluesPower said:


> Blindingly stupid at every level. Man, do you have no self-respect at all?
> 
> What is wrong with you?
> 
> Why is she in your bed? Or what it a recording?
> 
> Why are you listening to that?
> 
> Brother, you have to get out, and away from her and stay away from her...
> 
> You need therapy... lots of it.


Your not wrong. I heard her moaning him giving her instructions. Ye its all a mess


----------



## anchorwatch

Do not stand for such disrespect in your home, your family's home. Put her on the couch. Do something to make it untenable for her to carry this interaction with him in front of you.

Make it clear, she is free to do as she wants, but you do not share your wife or your home with others. 

Do your families know of this situation yet?


----------



## Marduk

DTG said:


> Thanks. Its a comfort knowing othrrs have been through this before me. Im in lockdown for the foreseeable future which is either a blessing or itl drive us nuts haha. Im really struggling with this €rap. In the space of a few weeks it just unfolds before you eyes because you never took the hints in the past to step up. I bleedin hate it.


Yup. You go from knowing your role in life, your path, and feel like you have someone you can count on forever.
And then all of it is gone.
But here's the secret - that confusion and lack of balance in you feel isn't you being lost. It's you finding yourself again. You were actually lost before this happened: you were living in her delusion. What you're now experiencing is reality, maybe for the first time in a long time.

And guess what? You're still here. You're still breathing, eating, and surviving. This will not destroy you. This will make you stronger. And this will encourage you to never again live in someone else's delusion.


----------



## jlg07

So, if your wife is SO disrespectful to have phone sex RIGHT NEXT to you, is her phone on your plan? If so, I would just make that phone disappear. WHY would you want someone who does this to you? @Marduk laid out a great plan for you to follow -- get on board with that. YES you are hurting and your emotions are all over the place -- BUT that doesn't mean you should't follow that plan. Being in lockdown makes things more difficult, but you CAN do this.


----------



## DTG

anchorwatch said:


> Do not stand for such disrespect in your home, your family's home. Put her on the couch. Do something to make it untenable for her to carry this interaction with him in front of you.
> 
> Make it clear, she is free to do as she wants, but you do not share your wife or your home with others.
> 
> Do your families know of this situation yet?


In her eyes the relationships over so i cant say anything. Some of my family do, hers dont


----------



## DTG

Marduk said:


> Yup. You go from knowing your role in life, your path, and feel like you have someone you can count on forever.
> And then all of it is gone.
> But here's the secret - that confusion and lack of balance in you feel isn't you being lost. It's you finding yourself again. You were actually lost before this happened: you were living in her delusion. What you're now experiencing is reality, maybe for the first time in a long time.
> 
> And guess what? You're still here. You're still breathing, eating, and surviving. This will not destroy you. This will make you stronger. And this will encourage you to never again live in someone else's delusion.



Yes i know theres alot of truth to what your saying, reality is needed on both sides


----------



## DTG

jlg07 said:


> So, if your wife is SO disrespectful to have phone sex RIGHT NEXT to you, is her phone on your plan? If so, I would just make that phone disappear. WHY would you want someone who does this to you? @Marduk laid out a great plan for you to follow -- get on board with that. YES you are hurting and your emotions are all over the place -- BUT that doesn't mean you should't follow that plan. Being in lockdown makes things more difficult, but you CAN do this.


She phs her "friend" in the bedroom for privacy, we were very much a "whats yours is mine" so everythings joint.


----------



## anchorwatch

DTG said:


> In her eyes the relationships over so i cant say anything. Some of my family do, hers dont


Then it's over and it's up to you to put an end to it.

Take a deep breath. Show her actions have consequences! Make her uncomfortable. Go on the offensive. Rock the boat some more. Start chipping away at her fantasy and cake eating.

Release yourself from the hell of limbo you are living in. Take control before it destroys what spirit you have left! Expose her to family and friends! 

Read it here... "The 180"

Good luck


----------



## Marduk

DTG said:


> Yes i know theres alot of truth to what your saying, reality is needed on both sides


I worry you're not getting it.
Getting her to see reality is not your job. In fact, you can leverage her delusions to your benefit if you're willing to be coldly rational about it.
A friend of mine negotiated a very reasonable settlement and custody arrangement while his wife was in the 'affair fog.' By the time she came out of it, it was too late and the papers were signed.

Don't try to get her to see the reality of the situation. It won't work, and it will just pull you back into her frame of reference.

Instead, start living in reality, protecting yourself and your children, and let her come to her own conclusions on her own. Let go, man.


----------



## Marduk

DTG said:


> She phs her "friend" in the bedroom for privacy, we were very much a "whats yours is mine" so everythings joint.


It would be hilarious if you tried to join her during her phone call with her "friend."


----------



## DTG

Update.
So as it


anchorwatch said:


> Take a deep breath. Show her actions have consequences! Make her uncomfortable. Go on the offensive. Rock the boat some more. Start chipping away at her fantasy and cake eating.
> 
> Release yourself from the hell of limbo you are living in. Take control before it destroys what spirit you have left! Expose her to family and friends!
> 
> Read it here... "The 180"
> 
> Good luck


Thanks. Its hard when she is all you know. I do have good family members to talk to but i know contacting hers would be massive as they like me. Is it too early to start telling people as she still seems abit confused?


----------



## DTG

Marduk said:


> It would be hilarious if you tried to join her during her phone call with her "friend."


Haha i already infiltrated her stupid game just to see how she was interacting with people on there. Ill turn the internet off in the middle of her call next time as she phs online


----------



## DTG

Marduk said:


> I worry you're not getting it.
> Getting her to see reality is not your job. In fact, you can leverage her delusions to your benefit if you're willing to be coldly rational about it.
> A friend of mine negotiated a very reasonable settlement and custody arrangement while his wife was in the 'affair fog.' By the time she came out of it, it was too late and the papers were signed.
> 
> Don't try to get her to see the reality of the situation. It won't work, and it will just pull you back into her frame of reference.
> 
> Instead, start living in reality, protecting yourself and your children, and let her come to her own conclusions on her own. Let go, man.


Your right. Nothing i can do. I have no idea how to go about divorce stuff as we have pretty much no assets its just the kids which she wont want to leave with me.


----------



## BluesPower

DTG said:


> Update.
> So as it
> 
> Thanks. Its hard when she is all you know. I do have good family members to talk to but i know contacting hers would be massive as they like me. Is it too early to start telling people as she still seems abit confused?



No actually, it is not too early to start telling people. If it does not do you any financial damage you should expose her to every one, now.

Further, listen, for you whole thread we have all been trying to get you out of your naivete... which means wake up.

Example, here family may or may not be disappointed in her when they find out. But they will support her in the long run. Bottom line, family is family, blood. YOU ARE NOT. NEVER WILL BE.

So if you want to tell her family the truth then fine, but don't expect anything from them. And over time, they will love her new Husband just like they love you. So wake up to that fact.

But you have got to stop having all of these childish thought about people and their motivations. Your wife cheated because she wanted to, she is not a good person, she is a POS.

Wake up to that fact, file for divorce and move on... better times are ahead, after you get her out of your life...


----------



## DTG

BluesPower said:


> No actually, it is not too early to start telling people. If is do not do you any financial damage you should expose her to every one/
> 
> Further, listen, for you whole thread we have all been trying to get you out of your naiveté... which means wake up.
> 
> Example, here family may or may not be disappointed in her when they find out. But they will support her in the long run. Bottom line, family is family, blood. YOU ARE NOT. NEVER WILL BE.
> 
> So if you want to tell her family the truth then fine, but don't expect anything from them. And over time, they will love her new Husband just like they love you. So wake up to that fact.
> 
> But you have got to stop having all of these childish thought about people and their motivations. Your wife cheated because she wanted to, she is not a good person, she is a POS.
> 
> Wake up to that fact, file for divorce and move on... better times are ahead, after you get he out of your life...


Yes im naive. I really appreciate all the advice, as you can see i have no experience when it comes to going about things for myself.


----------



## BluesPower

DTG said:


> Yes im naive. I really appreciate all the advice, as you can see i have no experience when it comes to going about things for myself.



Well, not time like the present to take you life into your own hands and figure out how you want to do things.

It will give you a chance to grow up, and find a life of your own.

Honestly, I bet in 6 months you will really be getting your **** together and living the good life...


----------



## DTG

BluesPower said:


> Well, not time like the present to take you life into your own hands and figure out how you want to do things.
> 
> It will give you a chance to grow up, and find a life of your own.
> 
> Honestly, I bet in 6 months you will really be getting your **** together and living the good life...


I have already made alot of changes reguarding the way i see myself and what i aspire to be like, for me its the kids that im struggling with. Wer so close and theyr so young. Theyr most important to me


----------



## jlg07

This is why you need a lawyer -- they will help you work out the Child custody. Just because SHE doesn't "want to leave them with you" doesn't mean she gets her way. The custody needs to be worked out as well as child support, etc..


----------



## DTG

jlg07 said:


> This is why you need a lawyer -- they will help you work out the Child custody. Just because SHE doesn't "want to leave them with you" doesn't mean she gets her way. The custody needs to be worked out as well as child support, etc..


Ye ill look into it. Theres not many rights for dads these days. She says im an awesome dad and a good provider so i really think shes dreamin if she thinks she can suddenly do it alone, but hey. For the rest of lockdown she can have a front seat veiw of the family shes destroying. Ill be having the time of my life with my babies


----------



## BluesPower

DTG said:


> I have already made a lot of changes regarding the way i see myself and what i aspire to be like, for me its the kids that im struggling with. We're so close and they are so young. They are most important to me.


Ok, all of this is great. So what do you want them to see in their father?

Do you want them to see a weak man, that chases after a woman that is abusing and cheating on him to his face?

Or, do you want the to see a strong man. A man that is grown and confident. A man that knows he is a good guy, a good father, and a good person. A man that models proper healthy behavior. A man that DOES NOT chase after a woman that is abusing and cheating on him. A man that understand that he is the person that needs to take care of his children the proper way.

Which man do you want to be????


----------



## DTG

BluesPower said:


> Ok, all of this is great. So what do you want them to see in their father?
> 
> Do you want them to see a weak man, that chases after a woman that is abusing and cheating on him to his face?
> 
> Or, do you want the to see a strong man. A man that is grown and confident. A man that knows he is a good guy, a good father, and a good person. A man that models proper healthy behavior. A man that DOES NOT chase after a woman that is abusing and cheating on him. A man that understand that he is the person that needs to take care of his children the proper way.
> 
> Which man do you want to be????


The man that stands on his morals and stops at nothing to do the right thing. Confident, secure and happy


----------



## BluesPower

DTG said:


> The man that stands on his morals and stops at nothing to do the right thing. Confident, secure and happy





DTG said:


> The man that stands on his morals and stops at nothing to do the right thing. Confident, secure and happy


I am not sure what you mean with this one. Morals from what view point. And man that allows himself to be abused by a cheating wife? Is that what you are talking about? Because if it is you need to look again. If you are religious, look at the bible. The bible does not call on us to allow ourselves to be abused? Do you know of another moral compass that says you should allow that.

If you are worried about your vows, the let's look at your wife. She has already broken her vows on multiple levels. Is that what you are talking about? Or what?

I think you are confusing being a Martyr with being moral. They are not the same thing.

Make no mistake, your wife has already broken the vows of your marriage, you by any measure are not bound any longer...


----------



## DTG

BluesPower said:


> I am not sure what you mean with this one. Morals from what view point. And man that allows himself to be abused by a cheating wife? Is that what you are talking about? Because if it is you need to look again. If you are religious, look at the bible. The bible does not call on us to allow ourselves to be abused? Do you know of another moral compass that says you should allow that.
> 
> If you are worried about your vows, the let's look at your wife. She has already broken her vows on multiple levels. Is that what you are talking about? Or what?
> 
> I think you are confusing being a Martyr with being moral. They are not the same thing.
> 
> Make no mistake, your wife has already broken the vows of your marriage, you by any measure are not bound any longer...


Yes i mean biblical morals. I dont want to accept being walked on. I am no longer going to show and interest in her, and ill leave it up to her to do any reconciling. However far it goes there is always a place in my heart for her IF she seeks repentance. But i dont want to be used anymore i cant stand it. I busted my arse off for this family and she knows it. fairytales are for kids. Life is hard, thing is i dont run from struggles i attempt to figure them out, shes always run in childhood and shes running now.


----------



## DTG

Thanks everyone for your words and patience. I know im abit naive and confused at the moment so it means alot 👍


----------



## anchorwatch

You have quite a bit on your plate. It is a lot to take in and quite a bit to learn. 

You started out behind. Many don't learn until something like this happens. You will catch up.

One foot in front of the other. Not going back.

Best


----------



## DTG

anchorwatch said:


> You have quite a bit on your plate. It is a lot to take in and quite a bit to learn.
> 
> You started out behind. Many don't learn until something like this happens. You will catch up.
> 
> One foot in front of the other. Not going back.
> 
> Best


Youre right about the learning part. I never minded learning through hardships but i guess others dont. Her loss. Im a hard working proffesional tradesman with 8 years experience although im just 24. Im on the verge of being self employed too so. If she wanted a drunken druggie bum just cus he makes her laugh then lol its one childish fantasy.


----------



## Marduk

DTG said:


> Youre right about the learning part. I never minded learning through hardships but i guess others dont. Her loss. Im a hard working proffesional tradesman with 8 years experience although im just 24. Im on the verge of being self employed too so. If she wanted a drunken druggie bum just cus he makes her laugh then lol its one childish fantasy.


Listen, man. My divorce was at 26. Her excuses included:

1. I wasn't attractive any more. I was in fairly good shape, low BMI, and was getting hit on throughout the marriage and separation. The 10 lbs or so I had gained since we first met... well, sure, I guess. But the guy she cheated on? Massively overweight. Seemed pretty unattractive to me.
2. I wasn't making enough money. I was making 6 figures at 26, no debt, had bought us a condo, new car, filled it with furniture, and had enough on the side to travel. She worked, but all her money just went to her own stuff. The guy she cheated on me with? A minimum wage security guard.
3. I was too 'reliant' on her, and she thought my world would crumble without her. I kept my job and got a promotion during the separation. I kept teaching martial arts, and helped open a new dojo. I kept all my friends, and had an active social life. The guy she cheated on me with literally was still living in his parent's house.

She took everything. Literally, I had a suitcase full of clothes and my playstation. I had to live in my old room at my mom's house. I had to borrow cars to get to work. But I was free.

By the time I was 27, I had a new place, new sports car, was dating and partying my ass off. By the time I was 29, I had met the woman that became my future wife. And we've been together ever since - two decades now.

You can rebuild. You will rebuild. And you will be even stronger, better, and smarter going forward. There's no where to go but up from here, man. The world is literally about to be your oyster.

And the amazing women I met along the way... wow. My ex did me a favour. Yours did you one, too. You'll see.


----------



## DTG

Marduk said:


> Listen, man. My divorce was at 26. Her excuses included:
> 
> 1. I wasn't attractive any more. I was in fairly good shape, low BMI, and was getting hit on throughout the marriage and separation. The 10 lbs or so I had gained since we first met... well, sure, I guess. But the guy she cheated on? Massively overweight. Seemed pretty unattractive to me.
> 2. I wasn't making enough money. I was making 6 figures at 26, no debt, had bought us a condo, new car, filled it with furniture, and had enough on the side to travel. She worked, but all her money just went to her own stuff. The guy she cheated on me with? A minimum wage security guard.
> 3. I was too 'reliant' on her, and she thought my world would crumble without her. I kept my job and got a promotion during the separation. I kept teaching martial arts, and helped open a new dojo. I kept all my friends, and had an active social life.
> 
> She took everything. Literally, I had a suitcase full of clothes and my nintendo. I had to live in my old room at my mom's house. I had to borrow cars to get to work. But I was free.
> 
> By the time I was 27, I had a new place, new sports car, was dating and partying my ass off. By the time I was 29, I had met the woman that became my future wife. And we've been together ever since - two decades now.
> 
> You can rebuild. You will rebuild. And you will be even stronger, better, and smarter going forward. There's no where to go but up from here, man. The world is literally about to be your oyster.
> 
> And the amazing women I met along the way... wow. My ex did me a favour. Yours did you one, too. You'll see.


Gees. Does the grass always have to be greener??. 
She told me her original list of must haves for her in marriage last night.

1. Be married once.
2. Be married to the man she has kids with.
3. To love and be loved.
4. Reliable provider/ father.
5. Someone who "gets" her.

1.✔
2.✔
3. Needs work but she doesnt "trust me to" 
4.✔
5. Shes decided im not her type lol

Not a hard list and if she just realised that you dont always get your ideal person and gave the marriage more effort and had more commitment our marriage would be super.
Stupid stupid stupid.


----------



## DTG

Marduk said:


> And the amazing women I met along the way... wow. My ex did me a favour. Yours did you one, too. You'll see.


Its a win win situation i guess 👍


----------



## Marduk

DTG said:


> Gees. Does the grass always have to be greener??.
> She told me her original list of must haves for her in marriage last night.
> 
> 1. Be married once.
> 2. Be married to the man she has kids with.
> 3. To love and be loved.
> 4. Reliable provider/ father.
> 5. Someone who "gets" her.
> 
> 1.✔
> 2.✔
> 3. Needs work but she doesnt "trust me to"
> 4.✔
> 5. Shes decided im not her type lol
> 
> Not a hard list and if she just realised that you dont always get your ideal person and gave the marriage more effort and had more commitment our marriage would be super.
> Stupid stupid stupid.


Get to a place where if she shares a list like that with you, you laugh at it.

How exactly is she going to stay married once but she married someone 'not her type?' Lol, what a laugh.

Treat this kind of stuff for the joke it is.


----------



## hinterdir

DTG said:


> Hello all.
> Im a young husband seeking an ear to hear and to listen to any advice.
> 
> We have been together 6 years and married 4 years and have two daughters 2yo and 9month old.
> Ive neglected my wife emotionaly due to stresses of work and having the children, ive always been abit insecure, introverted and "needy", not so much now but it is a factor in this mess.
> My wife has had messed up life of abuse and neglect and upon meeting me i was her source of happiness and comfort. However i did not always live up to her expectations as i was unexperienced (shes my one and only).
> As of today this is what shes told me.
> 
> Shes not sure she is in love with me.
> She doesnt trust me to consistently be there emotionaly for her.
> She feels unfufilled and unaccepted.
> She has meet a man online who flirts with her and makes her feel good and sexy, this man is also suicidal so she feels the need to help him and thus spends hours on the ph to him giggling and being "jokingly" flirty.
> Her ex bf reached out to her as he was going through a breakup, is suicidal and told her he still loves her, she has phoned him a few times.
> Her sex drive has shot up as she didnt believe my compliments but believes theirs.
> 
> I feel like i cant put my foot down and tell her to break off the ph calls and put boundries on her contacting them as she does not trust me to be any different from the past. What do i do? Try and prove myself different then ask her to stop? Or suddenly become assertive and put my foot down and maybe shel see that as an improvement? Or shel see it as selfish and not understanding of me to want that, as it makes her and the other guys happy.


Well...being "in love" is a myth.
Every moron on the earth would divorce if they ran off the moment they didn't feel "in love"
LOVE is a choice. It is an action a think you choose to do for someone...to put them above yourself. Guess what...we don't always feel "IN LOVE"
Tough.
Married couples have to work damn hard trying to keep the fire going...always courting their mates, making time for dates, always making time to do new things together, always trying to look nice for each other.
Not feeling is love is pretty common.
That means you work at your relationship more....not run off to ***** yourself out to whoever bats an eye at you.
You two have to work at your marriage and court each other.
Her "feeling in love" is tough crap.
If this hasn't already gone to a physical affair and if you want her back you need to have a nuclear sit down and come to Jesus moment....call into work and talk for 4 days straight if you need to but you have to demand she breaks ALL TIES and CONTACT with every man she is flirting with yesterday, you've got to talk out why you two have drifted and make commitments and a plan of action to remedy the drifting.
Every marriage has ups and downs and times of not feeling "in love". She sounds naive.
Commit to her, apologize for ignoring her...she needs to repent for seeking other men...the worst thing you can do.
If she will ask forgiveness and drop her straying and you can ask forgiveness for neglecting her re-commit to each other and work this out.

Be tough and strong though. Contacting men is 100% totally out of bounds, you being neglectful is no excuse.
If she doesn't seem to want to give them up and turn from this.....contact a lawyer and begin the divorce process.

Like I say.....a major come to Jesus talk. Do not stop until this is resolved. Screw sleep, screw work, take days off if needed and talk around the clock.


----------



## DTG

Marduk said:


> Get to a place where if she shares a list like that with you, you laugh at it.
> 
> How exactly is she going to stay married once but she married someone 'not her type?' Lol, what a laugh.
> 
> Treat this kind of stuff for the joke it is.


Exactly lol. alot retrospective thinking and negativity has turned it all into one bad memorey. Maybe its a women thing where if they have too much time to think they start overthinking and comparing everything to their old teenage fantasies.


----------



## DTG

hinterdir said:


> Well...being "in love" is a myth.
> Every moron on the earth would divorce if they ran off the moment they didn't feel "in love"
> LOVE is a choice. It is
> You two have to work at your marriage and court each other.
> Her "feeling in love" is tough crap.
> If this hasn't already gone to a physical affair and if you want her back you need to have a nuclear sit down and come to Jesus moment....call into work and talk for 4 days straight if you need to but you have to demand she breaks ALL TIES and CONTACT with every man she is flirting with yesterday, you've got to talk out why you two have drifted and make commitments and a plan of action to remedy the drifting.
> Every marriage has ups and downs and times of not feeling "in love". She sounds naive.
> Commit to her, apologize for ignoring her...she needs to repent for seeking other men...the worst thing you can do.
> If she will ask forgiveness and drop her straying and you can ask forgiveness for neglecting her re-commit to each other and work this out.
> 
> Be tough and strong though. Contacting men is 100% totally out of bounds, you being neglectful is no excuse.
> If she doesn't seem to want to give them up and turn from this.....contact a lawyer and begin the divorce process.
> 
> Like I say.....a major come to Jesus talk. Do not stop until this is resolved. Screw sleep, screw work, take days off if needed and talk around the clock.


Wow. Thank you. She said she was struggling spiritually about the time this started, someone who we didnt really know even brought forth a word from God about completeness for us which hit the nail on the head but she didnt seem to take it in. I do worry that the world we live in gives the wrong perception of love and so everyone feels entitled to better.
Do you think talking logically is an option at a stage when its all about feelings and not reason?

She knows its wrong but to her its like it was a dangerous friendship when she was vunerable that as soon as i did something else she didnt like she decided this marriage is over so she decided well i can be sexually available aswell as emotionally to this man.
Im never on to give up but im not going play second fiddle to her fantasies.
Shes pretty certain its past resolving as ive "had chances".
Ive already shown changes but when i questioned her flirting with this guys she took it as immaturity on my part.
I think she has no idea what marriage actually is. Or love for that matter.


----------



## Tilted 1

DTG said:


> Ye ill look into it. Theres not many rights for dads these days. She says im an awesome dad and a good provider so i really think shes dreamin if she thinks she can suddenly do it alone, but hey. For the rest of lockdown she can have a front seat veiw of the family shes destroying. Ill be having the time of my life with my babies


Well, look at it this way, you might get the kids.


----------



## DTG

Tilted 1 said:


> Well, look at it this way, you might get the kids.


Ye im guessing she wouldnt be able to move country as the joint custody would stop that which is a bonus.


----------



## hinterdir

DTG said:


> Wow. Thank you. She said she was struggling spiritually about the time this started, someone who we didnt really know even brought forth a word from God about completeness for us which hit the nail on the head but she didnt seem to take it in. I do worry that the world we live in gives the wrong perception of love and so everyone feels entitled to better.
> Do you think talking logically is an option at a stage when its all about feelings and not reason?
> 
> She knows its wrong but to her its like it was a dangerous friendship when she was vunerable that as soon as i did something else she didnt like she decided this marriage is over so she decided well i can be sexually available aswell as emotionally to this man.
> Im never on to give up but im not going play second fiddle to her fantasies.
> Shes pretty certain its past resolving as ive "had chances".
> Ive already shown changes but when i questioned her flirting with this guys she took it as immaturity on my part.
> I think she has no idea what marriage actually is. Or love for that matter.


Sexually?
Has she actually had sex with one of them?
If not.....her having any contact with them must be a non-negotiable NO. It isn't even up for debate. If she insists on still contacting them.....divorce her.
If she says she won't but you end up catching her doing it.....divorce her
If she ever did anything physical with anyone....divorce her.
She has zero grounds to stand on to get with other men.

You only have a shot if she totally breaks it off talking to other men and comes to you.

It has to be non-negotiable. If she won't....then it is on to divorce.

Truthfully the fact that she is showing that it is in her character to seek out other men if everything isn't peachy within the marriage is a good sign she can never be trusted and you may need to divorce her anyway.


----------



## hinterdir

DTG said:


> Wow. Thank you. She said she was struggling spiritually about the time this started, someone who we didnt really know even brought forth a word from God about completeness for us which hit the nail on the head but she didnt seem to take it in. I do worry that the world we live in gives the wrong perception of love and so everyone feels entitled to better.
> Do you think talking logically is an option at a stage when its all about feelings and not reason?
> 
> She knows its wrong but to her its like it was a dangerous friendship when she was vunerable that as soon as i did something else she didnt like she decided this marriage is over so she decided well i can be sexually available aswell as emotionally to this man.
> Im never on to give up but im not going play second fiddle to her fantasies.
> Shes pretty certain its past resolving as ive "had chances".
> Ive already shown changes but when i questioned her flirting with this guys she took it as immaturity on my part.
> I think she has no idea what marriage actually is. Or love for that matter.


I didn't read page three of this thread. Now I have.
She is having phone sex with him.
Divorce her.
She has broken your marriage vows and fidelity bond.
Tell everyone involved.
Throw her phone in the toilet.
Get a lawyer and get rid of this...person.


----------



## DTG

hinterdir said:


> Sexually?
> Has she actually had sex with one of them?
> If not.....her having any contact with them must be a non-negotiable NO. It isn't even up for debate. If she insists on still contacting them.....divorce her.
> If she says she won't but you end up catching her doing it.....divorce her
> If she ever did anything physical with anyone....divorce her.
> She has zero grounds to stand on to get with other men.
> 
> You only have a shot if she totally breaks it off talking to other men and comes to you.
> 
> It has to be non-negotiable. If she won't....then it is on to divorce.
> 
> Truthfully the fact that she is showing that it is in her character to seek out other men if everything isn't peachy within the marriage is a good sign she can never be trusted and you may need to divorce her anyway.


They had ph sex in my bedroom last night. As of now as we are both stuck because of lock down i am ignoring her and she can come to her own conclusions


----------



## Tilted 1

DTG said:


> They had ph sex in my bedroom last night. As of now as we are both stuck because of lock down i am ignoring her and she can come to her own conclusions


Take it out of the oven!! It's done


----------



## DTG

hinterdir said:


> I didn't read page three of this thread. Now I have.
> She is having phone sex with him.
> Divorce her.
> She has broken your marriage vows and fidelity bond.
> Tell everyone involved.
> Throw her phone in the toilet.
> Get a lawyer and get rid of this...person.


If she doesnt get her head out of her backside then yes. Id love to throw that ph in the toilet 💩 n*ffing evil inventions.


----------



## DTG

Tilted 1 said:


> Take it out of the oven!! It's done


How do you mean? Lol


----------



## hinterdir

DTG said:


> They had ph sex in my bedroom last night. As of now as we are both stuck because of lock down i am ignoring her and she can come to her own conclusions


Via phone?
He wasn't in


DTG said:


> They had ph sex in my bedroom last night. As of now as we are both stuck because of lock down i am ignoring her and she can come to her own conclusions


Via phone....right?
He wasn't actually there?
If you let a man come in....I'd seriously question your manhood?
Anyway, phone is bad enough.
She is evil, just get her out of your life.


----------



## Tilted 1

DTG said:


> How do you mean? Lol


Have her call up lover boy and tell her is ok to go to him see if she takes you up on your great idea.


----------



## DTG

hinterdir said:


> Via phone?
> He wasn't in
> 
> Via phone....right?
> He wasn't actually there?
> If you let a man come in....I'd seriously question your manhood?
> Anyway, phone is bad enough.
> She is evil, just get her out of your life.


Ye over the ph


----------



## DTG

Tilted 1 said:


> Have her call up lover boy and tell her is ok to go to him see if she takes you up on your great idea.


Ye i kinda said that and she blew up cus i said she wouldnt have the kids as this man is in the US and us in NZ.


----------



## Tilted 1

DTG said:


> Ye i kinda said that and she blew up cus i said she wouldnt have the kids as this man is in the US and us in NZ.


But it shows she, has been thinking of it though.


----------



## DTG

Tilted 1 said:


> But it shows she, has been thinking of it though.


She definitely has. She was talking about ways to make some money aswell. Just 2 days ago she reckoned nope nothing would ever happen between them and i shouldnt suggest that its a possibility as hes as old as her dad. Yeah right.


----------



## BluesPower

DTG said:


> If she doesnt get her head out of her backside then yes. Id love to throw that ph in the toilet 💩 n*ffing evil inventions.


Hold on, are you not filing for divorce? What are you doing? 

Why are you in the same room here. What is wrong with you? 

How are you allowing this to go on? Do you think this is OK? 

WTF???


----------



## DTG

BluesPower said:


> Hold on, are you not filing for divorce? What are you doing?
> 
> Why are you in the same room here. What is wrong with you?
> 
> How are you allowing this to go on? Do you think this is OK?
> 
> WTF???


We are in lockdown. All im doing is having fun with my kids and being happy, it annoys her that i "dont seem to care" so she keeps asking where im at. I overheard part of her ph call. If she wants to leave for a bum then fine. Nothing i can do to change her thinking by telling her to stop. She knows what shes doing. Im just living my life with my kids and she can torture herself by betraying her family if she wants. For what ever its worth she didnt ph him yesterday and tried to be more part of the family. Im at peace with the situation. Im know my worth now. Shes the one who is in a mess not me. Shel leave or shel repent, either way her loss my gain.


----------



## Tilted 1

DTG said:


> We are in lockdown. All im doing is having fun with my kids and being happy, it annoys her that i "dont seem to care" so she keeps asking where im at. I overheard part of her ph call. If she wants to leave for a bum then fine. Nothing i can do to change her thinking by telling her to stop. She knows what shes doing. Im just living my life with my kids and she can torture herself by betraying her family if she wants. For what ever its worth she didnt ph him yesterday and tried to be more part of the family. Im at peace with the situation. Im know my worth now. Shes the one who is in a mess not me. Shel leave or shel repent, either way her loss my gain.


Repent? And that's good enough? What of the physical? That denied? What of the mind movies, that will run through the mind of any red blooded male? 

Who can't prove but knows what she does with the H, she does have with the AP? And if you didn't know they do things with the other man you would never get.


----------



## sunsetmist

So its true then--what she is telling all her girlfriends and boyfriends as well? You lie there and listen to her have phone sex and must enjoy it or you would do something about it. It does not matter if the current guys live far away, pretty soon word will get out and she'll have someone local. 

Of course, eventually some old dude's wife will come after her or worse--send him to live with her. What a fine Christian life she leads with no respect for her husband, AP's spouses, herself, her family. Your kids will grow up and think having open marriages is the thing all should do.

Enjoy your lockdown. Glad you have everything under control...


----------



## DTG

Tilted 1 said:


> Repent? And that's good enough? What of the physical? That denied? What of the mind movies, that will run through the mind of any red blooded male?
> 
> Who can't prove but knows what she does with the H, she does have with the AP? And if you didn't know they do things with the other man you would never get.


Off course theres more to it then just repent. Im not going to think about all the betrayal and silly games shes playing because ill lose my focus which is now on myself and my kids.


----------



## DTG

sunsetmist said:


> So its true then--what she is telling all her girlfriends and boyfriends as well? You lie there and listen to her have phone sex and must enjoy it or you would do something about it. It does not matter if the current guys live far away, pretty soon word will get out and she'll have someone local.
> 
> Of course, eventually some old dude's wife will come after her or worse--send him to live with her. What a fine Christian life she leads with no respect for her husband, AP's spouses, herself, her family. Your kids will grow up and think having open marriages is the thing all should do.
> 
> Enjoy your lockdown. Glad you have everything under control...


I dont lie there and listen. I heard through the locked door. I dont fancy breaking the door and outbursts of rage to do me or my kids any good. Im aware she can find someone local but as of now she has until the end of lockdown to do some serious back tracking. Once again if she wants to create the hell shes creating for herself then thats her choice. The place shes put herself in its very obvious that she hates it but doesnt know what to do about it. Anyway im at peace and happy to be with my kids. We laugh and have fun while shes miserable in her corner.


----------



## Marduk

DTG said:


> We are in lockdown. All im doing is having fun with my kids and being happy, it annoys her that i "dont seem to care" so she keeps asking where im at. I overheard part of her ph call. If she wants to leave for a bum then fine. Nothing i can do to change her thinking by telling her to stop. She knows what shes doing. Im just living my life with my kids and she can torture herself by betraying her family if she wants. For what ever its worth she didnt ph him yesterday and tried to be more part of the family. Im at peace with the situation. Im know my worth now. Shes the one who is in a mess not me. Shel leave or shel repent, either way her loss my gain.


Dude. Seriously. I've been there.
I know what the continual listing of "if she does this for sure I'm out" or "If she doesn't do that then I'm dumping her ass" looks like.
You're bluffing. You're deluding yourself that you're in control with this line of thinking or these threats. It's already over. It's waaaaaay past time for ultimatums. She had phone sex with this guy in your bed. If that isn't crossing the Rubicon, I just don't know what is.
She has everything exactly the way she wants it right now. She doesn't think she's in a mess, she's finally got everything exactly the way she wants it.
You need to turn those ultimatums into actions, man. Don't talk. Don't threaten. Don't bluff. Act.


----------



## DTG

Marduk said:


> Dude. Seriously. I've been there.
> I know what the continual listing of "if she does this for sure I'm out" or "If she doesn't do that then I'm dumping her ass" looks like.
> You're bluffing. You're deluding yourself that you're in control with this line of thinking or these threats. It's already over. It's waaaaaay past time for ultimatums. She had phone sex with this guy in your bed. If that isn't crossing the Rubicon, I just don't know what is.
> She has everything exactly the way she wants it right now. She doesn't think she's in a mess, she's finally got everything exactly the way she wants it.
> You need to turn those ultimatums into actions, man. Don't talk. Don't threaten. Don't bluff. Act.


She is in a mess because shes messing around with a guy who she can never be with and she knows it. He cant move country here cus he has kids with someone else and itl be the same for her. Sure she can find someone else here but for now my action is letting her stew and not being sucked into her drama. Shes really annoyed at how happy and relaxed i am because the "old me" would be moping, but im not playing her game anymore. Not sure i can do much else right now being stuck in lockdown.


----------



## jlg07

Honestly, just hide her phone.


----------



## NextTimeAround

DTG said:


> Thanks alot. We are in lockdown which doesnt help the counseling situation haha. She has helped suicidal people before as she has been that way herself but i feel at least one of the guys has crossed the line emotionally for sure.


We're all suicidal. When your wife says that she was abused, what kid of abuse was it?


----------



## DTG

NextTimeAround said:


> We're all suicidal. When your wife says that she was abused, what kid of abuse was it?


Neglect from parents as in not being feed, cared for or disciplined, she had to steal parents credit cards to feed her and her siblings. Physical abuse by alcaholic/druggie parents.
Rape (worst case scenario). Which all led to -
Alcohol abuse and substance use.
Lots more rape and fornication during self destructive lifestyle.
Moved to different foster homes and rejected by her own grandparents because she let childcare take photos of her bruises which her parents gave her.
All this before i met her at 15years old.

Thats most of what i now know


----------



## sunsetmist

The abuse she suffered during her childhood is heinous and I hope y'all both have had extensive therapy to manage this. Any time you discuss y'all's relationship with others, lead with this. Without help she will have a tendency toward promiscuity and trust issues. Sometimes victims of CSA and other such abuse will develop personality disorders in adulthood. Her therapist could help her deal with this.

Any one with suicidal thoughts or tendencies should have professional help. Her support should be secondary.


----------



## DTG

sunsetmist said:


> The abuse she suffered during her childhood is heinous and I hope y'all both have had extensive therapy to manage this. Any time you discuss y'all's relationship with others, lead with this. Without help she will have a tendency toward promiscuity and trust issues. Sometimes victims of CSA and other such abuse will develop personality disorders in adulthood. Her therapist could help her deal with this.
> 
> Any one with suicidal thoughts or tendencies should have professional help. Her support should be secondary.


Yes it has been hard as its very painful for her to admit any of it, she ony really told me most of it when we had breakups cus she though id want to leave her. On the contry ive just loved her. Now that i realise how much of an effect its still having on her i really want us to do therapy.


----------



## sunsetmist

Hope she understands it was not her fault!! She is a victim, hopefully on her way to becoming a survivor. She should no longer be exposed to the perpetrator. If she stood naked in the street and said 'have at me,' it would still NOT have been her fault. Children cannot make those decisions cognitively. It can even feel good physiologically. They are often groomed, forced, made fearful of revealing.

There is much online info, but she needs to talk this through extensively with a trained specialist. Glad you are supportive. @bobert and others can help you here.


----------



## DTG

sunsetmist said:


> Hope she understands it was not her fault!! She is a victim, hopefully on her way to becoming a survivor. She should no longer be exposed to the perpetrator. If she stood naked in the street and said 'have at me,' it would still NOT have been her fault. Children cannot make those decisions cognitively. It can even feel good physiologically. They are often groomed, forced, made fearful of revealing.
> 
> There is much online info, but she needs to talk this through extensively with a trained specialist. Glad you are supportive. @bobert and others can help you here.


Thanks it means alot. Shes extremely confused. She broke down in tears last night saying she was so lost and wondered if i still loved her. Its so hard to know what to do when i realise that she feels no self worth and feels like she needs to find it elsewhere. I dont want to be sucked into any games she might be playing but im aware that the person i know is lost in there somewhere and its hard letting her know that i do love her no matter what shes done without just being a crutch for her when she feels guilty for her actions.


----------



## MJJEAN

DTG said:


> If she wants to leave for a bum then fine.


No, she doesn't want to leave. She wants to have affairs, "future fake", and stay right where she is with her spineless door mat cuckold husband paying for her lifestyle and watching her kids while she's occupied with her lovers.



DTG said:


> . The place shes put herself in its very obvious that she hates it but doesnt know what to do about it.


Yup. It's so horrible and she hates it so much she keeps doing it unless she's busy trying to make sure you're still hooked.



DTG said:


> Neglect from parents as in not being feed, cared for or disciplined, she had to steal parents credit cards to feed her and her siblings. Physical abuse by alcaholic/druggie parents.
> Rape (worst case scenario). Which all led to -
> Alcohol abuse and substance use.
> Lots more rape and fornication during self destructive lifestyle.
> Moved to different foster homes and rejected by her own grandparents because she let childcare take photos of her bruises which her parents gave her.
> All this before i met her at 15years old.
> 
> Thats most of what i now know


Have you read the children's services paperwork? Because, if not, you know squat but what a liar and manipulative adultress tells you.

So what you're saying is that you have never been in a romantic relationship with a healthy and mentally stable person. It's a whole different world.


----------



## DTG

Yes im aware of the games shes playing and the thrill she gets out of it. Im also aware that her natural reaction to "tough" times is to revert to what she thinks she found validation in originally. Yes i got into a tussle with the police and her family as she wanted to leave home but her parents wouldnt let her. The only way i stopped the police turning up on my step was to use the evidence child services already had against the police and her family. No you could say i havnt had a completely normal relationship ever.


----------



## MJJEAN

A normal relationship is absolutely amazing. You realize there has been a background hum of constant tension you never realized you felt until it dissipates.

You should look into codependency. Also look up trauma bonding. Add in a look into how drama can be psychologically addictive. Google can help you out. There is a ton of information available if you know the terms to search. I'd guess you've been codependent, trauma bonded, and addicted to highs and lows of the drama for quite some time. The fact that you've never known anything else and that this has been "normal" to you for your entire adult life and I can imagine getting out, getting mentally healthy, and learning what a decent relationship looks like will take the help of a great psychiatrist.


----------



## Buffer

Brother, call her and ask for phone sex? She will decline and have a go at you! You know what to do when that happens.
Print off some local separation papers and give them to her to fill in. Then also hand her the NZ Act on parenting rights for overseas co parenting. Continue the hard 180. Advise her when this lockdown lifts and she moves out she will still have to pay child support even if she relocates overseas. 
she does need to seek IC as just because the OM from the internet is her life partner who is suicidal doesn’t mean that it’s true. Could be a cannibal from where ever!! She can’t save the world to the detriment of her children. Ask her how does she like the idea that her children will call your next partner mum for the time they are with you due to her actions. 
One day at a time. 
Buffer


----------



## DTG

MJJEAN said:


> A normal relationship is absolutely amazing. You realize there has been a background hum of constant tension you never realized you felt until it dissipates.
> 
> You should look into codependency. Also look up trauma bonding. Add in a look into how drama can be psychologically addictive. Google can help you out. There is a ton of information available if you know the terms to search. I'd guess you've been codependent, trauma bonded, and addicted to highs and lows of the drama for quite some time. The fact that you've never known anything else and that this has been "normal" to you for your entire adult life and I can imagine getting out, getting mentally healthy, and learning what a decent relationship looks like will take the help of a great psychiatrist.


You make some good points. Ill definitely look those up. Thanks.


----------



## DTG

Buffer said:


> Brother, call her and ask for phone sex? She will decline and have a go at you! You know what to do when that happens.
> Print off some local separation papers and give them to her to fill in. Then also hand her the NZ Act on parenting rights for overseas co parenting. Continue the hard 180. Advise her when this lockdown lifts and she moves out she will still have to pay child support even if she relocates overseas.
> she does need to seek IC as just because the OM from the internet is her life partner who is suicidal doesn’t mean that it’s true. Could be a cannibal from where ever!! She can’t save the world to the detriment of her children. Ask her how does she like the idea that her children will call your next partner mum for the time they are with you due to her actions.
> One day at a time.
> Buffer


Thanks mate. Haha she just said how stupid it is that she has got feelings for this person, we had a good laugh. One day at a time alright.


----------



## TJW

DTG said:


> Haha she just said how stupid it is that she has got feelings for this person, we had a good laugh.


You need desperately to understand one thing....

Adulterers have one thing in common with all other adulterers. All (ALL) adulterers are LIARS.

You need to see your wife for what she is. She is a manipulative user. She is not living a christian life. Because I am personally aware, and so thankful, for the mercy and grace of my Lord Jesus Christ, who extended to me His marvelous salvation in spite of the fact that I made so many choices to disobey Him....... I cannot say she isn't saved. However, I can definitely say that she is not submitting to His lordship in her life.

And, unless your wife begins to submit to His lordship, and DOES THE WORK to change herself by His help, she will laugh with you today, and tonight ? She will go right back to the phone sex.

After you have gone, and her marriage is wrecked, unless she then begins to submit to His lordship, she will wreck her next marriage.....and the next.....and the next.

She will need professional help to overcome the egregious treatment she received as a child. She, through this help, can learn that she does not have to be yoked to the past, but can begin, today, to make healthier and better choices.

I Corinthians 5:9b-11 (NIV) - words from the Apostle Paul

_I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. _

Matthew 18:15-17 (NIV) - words from our Lord Jesus Christ

_“If your brother or sister[b] sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. _

No more laughing at her sin. Instead, obey your Lord and the Apostle. Do not continue to be a partaker in her sin.


----------



## DTG

TJW said:


> You need desperately to understand one thing....
> 
> Adulterers have one thing in common with all other adulterers. All (ALL) adulterers are LIARS.
> 
> You need to see your wife for what she is. She is a manipulative user. She is not living a christian life. Because I am personally aware, and so thankful, for the mercy and grace of my Lord Jesus Christ, who extended to me His marvelous salvation in spite of the fact that I made so many choices to disobey Him....... I cannot say she isn't saved. However, I can definitely say that she is not submitting to His lordship in her life.
> 
> And, unless your wife begins to submit to His lordship, and DOES THE WORK to change herself by His help, she will laugh with you today, and tonight ? She will go right back to the phone sex.
> 
> After you have gone, and her marriage is wrecked, unless she then begins to submit to His lordship, she will wreck her next marriage.....and the next.....and the next.
> 
> She will need professional help to overcome the egregious treatment she received as a child. She, through this help, can learn that she does not have to be yoked to the past, but can begin, today, to make healthier and better choices.
> 
> I Corinthians 5:9b-11 (NIV) - words from the Apostle Paul
> 
> _I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. _
> 
> Matthew 18:15-17 (NIV) - words from our Lord Jesus Christ
> 
> _“If your brother or sister[b] sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. _
> 
> No more laughing at her sin. Instead, obey your Lord and the Apostle. Do not continue to be a partaker in her sin.


Thank you. Your 100% right i shouldnt laught at it. Its ony through putting my hope in Jesus and finding my worth in him that i can have peace and not sink into self pity like i always have. As the Bob Carlisile song says "i can stand tall, and face it all, on my knees" and thats at the core of what im doing. I think there is a clear spiritual problem from her past which has a hold on her. Im blessed to have an amazing Christian family who i can call at any hour of the night for prayer and help me decipher through all the lies and deception going on. And hearing the different perspectives on this forum help paint the whole picture, and showed me the importance of therapy and counseling and what i shouldnt put up with.


----------



## Marduk

DTG said:


> Neglect from parents as in not being feed, cared for or disciplined, she had to steal parents credit cards to feed her and her siblings. Physical abuse by alcaholic/druggie parents.
> Rape (worst case scenario). Which all led to -
> Alcohol abuse and substance use.
> Lots more rape and fornication during self destructive lifestyle.
> Moved to different foster homes and rejected by her own grandparents because she let childcare take photos of her bruises which her parents gave her.
> All this before i met her at 15years old.
> 
> Thats most of what i now know


It is very common for survivors of sexual trauma to have difficulty - or just be unable - to form permanent monogamous pair bonds for the rest of their life.
And while my heart goes out to her regarding her trauma... none of this is your fault.

In fact, she’s passing her trauma on to you, and is now victimizing you as a response.

Which is also very common. And from a guy that’s gotten secondary PTSD... you need to stand up for yourself and demand that it stops. Because you getting traumatized won’t help her one bit, it just spreads the pain around.

She’s broken and unable to be in a relationship right now.


----------



## Marduk

DTG said:


> Thanks it means alot. Shes extremely confused. She broke down in tears last night saying she was so lost and wondered if i still loved her. Its so hard to know what to do when i realise that she feels no self worth and feels like she needs to find it elsewhere. I dont want to be sucked into any games she might be playing but im aware that the person i know is lost in there somewhere and its hard letting her know that i do love her no matter what shes done without just being a crutch for her when she feels guilty for her actions.


One of the most powerful things that changed my wife’s response to trauma (in my opinion) was when she told me that I shouldn’t love her any more because all she does is hurt me.

And I turned to her and said words to the effect of “You’re right. It ends now or we end now.”

Her entire approach to her PTSD changed that very day.


----------



## DTG

Marduk said:


> It is very common for survivors of sexual trauma to have difficulty - or just be unable - to form permanent monogamous pair bonds for the rest of their life.
> And while my heart goes out to her regarding her trauma... none of this is your fault.
> 
> In fact, she’s passing her trauma on to you, and is now victimizing you as a response.
> 
> Which is also very common. And from a guy that’s gotten secondary PTSD... you need to stand up for yourself and demand that it stops. Because you getting traumatized won’t help her one bit, it just spreads the pain around.
> 
> She’s broken and unable to be in a relationship right now.


I think through this ive learnt to distance myself from the actual events happening by removing myself from the drama and just observing from almost a 3rd person veiwpoint, and i see now the effect her trauma has and is having.



Marduk said:


> One of the most powerful things that changed my wife’s response to trauma (in my opinion) was when she told me that I shouldn’t love her any more because all she does is hurt me.
> 
> And I turned to her and said words to the effect of “You’re right. It ends now or we end now.”
> 
> Her entire approach to her PTSD changed that very day.


Thats very powerful. That sort of clarity is what my wife is showing more of so ill just take it slow and not do anything rash on my part. She definitely wont acknowledge that her trauma is an issue tho, its more like she thinks and acknowledges sometimes that the lifestyle she had after the first traumatic events was a selfish lifestyle but is more "her" then the life she has married.


----------



## MJJEAN

DTG said:


> Thats very powerful. That sort of clarity is what my wife is showing more of so ill just take it slow and not do anything rash on my part. She definitely wont acknowledge that her trauma is an issue tho, its more like she thinks and acknowledges sometimes that the lifestyle she had after the first traumatic events was a selfish lifestyle but is more "her" then the life she has married.


Sometimes, abused people grow to become somewhat selfish and gain a sense of entitlement. Because they were horribly treated, the world/Universe/God owes them. I've also seen formerly abused children become adults who abuse themselves (being selfless, sacrificing for spouse and kids, "sucking it up") and then comfort themselves with selfish pleasurable acts, such as cheating and drug use.

Going to a psychiatrist will only be of any use to your wife if she:
A) admits there is a problem and she needs help
B) is willing to be brutally honest with herself and with her therapist
and
C) is willing and able to do some hard work on herself

If all of the above aren't true it's a waste of everyone's time.

Some people get help and are successful. They are, frankly, not the overwhelming majority. Others continue as they are or spiral and there isn't a thing anyone can do because they have to want to help themselves.


----------



## DTG

MJJEAN said:


> Sometimes, abused people grow to become somewhat selfish and gain a sense of entitlement. Because they were horribly treated, the world/Universe/God owes them. I've also seen formerly abused children become adults who abuse themselves (being selfless, sacrificing for spouse and kids, "sucking it up") and then comfort themselves with selfish pleasurable acts, such as cheating and drug use.
> 
> Going to a psychiatrist will only be of any use to your wife if she:
> A) admits there is a problem and she needs help
> B) is willing to be brutally honest with herself and with her therapist
> and
> C) is willing and able to do some hard work on herself
> 
> If all of the above aren't true it's a waste of everyone's time.
> 
> Some people get help and are successful. They are, frankly, not the overwhelming majority. Others continue as they are or spiral and there isn't a thing anyone can do because they have to want to help themselves.


Yes very true. Im going to make it clear to her that to move forward we have to sort out these issues and break the viscious cycle


----------



## Marduk

DTG said:


> she thinks and acknowledges sometimes that the lifestyle she had after the first traumatic events was a selfish lifestyle but is more "her" then the life she has married.


You know that old Maya Angelou quote about believing people when they tell you who they are?


----------



## bobert

Warning, this will be long... 

People who experience childhood trauma learn that the world is not safe, that they cannot lean on those closest to them, and that they cannot trust other people. It is very common for her to push you away because she has learned that the people closest to her, who are supposed to be there for her, are unsafe and unreliable. So, they turn to other people to try and fill that void, but it never works. That is not your fault, that is something that she has to choose to work on. So she doesn't feel safe. What do we do when we are in danger? We protect ourselves. We go into fight, flight, or freeze mode. Your wife reverts to her childhood and teen years because, for her, that works. After all, it got her through her childhood, right? It made her survive. It becomes so ingrained that it becomes an automatic response. Something that she needs to learn is that it's not healthy and it's not true. 

Your wife thinking that you are not safe, that you do not love her, etc., that is just the way her mind works right now - as a direct result of her childhood trauma. YOU know that you are safe, that you love her, etc. and you are baffled that she cannot see that. My wife has spent the last 6 months slowly realizing that I actually do love her and everything she was searching for in affairs, she already had or had the potential to have, with me. That is after being together for 17 years and a year of intensive therapy (several times a week). She is _just now_ starting to feel loved. For my wife, it didn't matter what I said or did, she could come up with several reasons to negate mine. I imagine your wife is the same way. After all, why would she have any worth or why would you love her when her own parents didn't love her? You need to reassure your wife over and over and over that nothing from her childhood will make you leave her or stop loving her. She won't believe it, she can't, but say it anyway. Do not say she can tell you anything and you won't leave, because what if she says she banged the whole football team yesterday, right? Then YOU'RE the liar (to her). Make sure you say "from her childhood". Her parents ignored and neglected her, so she wants you to PROVE that you want her. Unfortunately, that seems to mean chasing her and begging for her while she has phone sex with another man (also satisfying the "daddy issues" she has and searching for things she thinks she's missing). That is not realistic, not an option and not acceptable. You need to make it very clear that you are willing to work on the marriage, but NOT while another man is in the picture. 

Keep in mind, her past is NOT a justification for her cheating. You can use her past to _understand_ her cheating, but not to excuse, dismiss or justify it. 

The effects of childhood abuse are devastating and will reak havoc on the rest of her life, as well as your life and the lives of your children, if she allows it to. That's the key there, "if she allows it to". She, and she alone, has the power to change this. During her childhood, she didn't have a choice/power. Something that she has to realize is... now she _does, _but she has to direct that power in the right direction. She can choose to allow her past abusers and experiences to keep having control over her and allow them to ruin her life, or she can say enough is enough, do something about it and end the cycle. 

Until your wife is ready to unpack the trauma and face her demons, she never will and this will not get better. You cannot force her to go, if you did it would be a waste of time and money. She needs to come to the point of A) knowing she needs help and B) being ready to accept that help. Those are two very different things and may not (most likely will not) come at the same time. In fact, they may NEVER come. Some people will never, ever get help. Therapy is hard, REALLY hard, and someone has to REALLY want it to go through with it. Many people will not do it and as a result, never improve. 

One suggestion I have is to try changing your approach. 

Your wife is defensive about needing therapy and owning up to her problems. So, don't present this as HER problem. Don't tell her that she has trust issues because that will make her defensive. Don't tell her that you want therapy to talk about her past trauma. She already feels broken enough. Telling her that she needs therapy could make her feel more broken because something needs fixing. Turn the focus away from her, and onto the marriage. Ask her if she will go to marriage counseling with you, not for HER issues but for the marriage and for YOU. 

The point of marriage counseling, in this case, is to get her to dip her toes into therapy. Once she is in the door the therapist can start working with her, and you. It might help, or it might not. Alternatively, YOU can start going to therapy for yourself (and you DO need it). This may show her that therapy isn't that bad or encourage her to do the same. If your wife refuses therapy or the work, refuses to even read a book, or keeps up with the affair, then your marriage is over. You can only hold on for so long and you cannot keep playing games. You can wait around and hope she changes but that time may never come. It's like being married to an addict, if they will not get help, at some point you have to call it quits. Things won't change unless your wife does. 

I'll be honest, the journey sucks. It really, really does, but it has been worth it for me. That being said, I am only with my wife because she does the work in therapy and marriage counseling, there has been a lot of progress, she is committed to getting and being better, and when she stumbles she gets back up. If you try to fix this, you are in for a LONG, HARD ride. It gets a hell of a lot worse before it gets better. It will take YEARS of VERY hard work to recover from and her past will never be erased. It will never be "gone", just dealt with in a healthier way. I don't say that to try and scare you off or anything. I say that because it's true and you need to understand that. Dealing with this sort of thing is no easy feat and it's not for everyone. A lot of people in your position would not stay, and you know what, that's okay. Whether you choose to stay or leave, the right choice is whatever is best for YOU and your sanity.


----------



## DTG

bobert said:


> Warning, this will be long...
> 
> People who experience childhood trauma learn that the world is not safe, that they cannot lean on those closest to them, and that they cannot trust other people. It is very common for her to push you away because she has learned that the people closest to her, who are supposed to be there for her, are unsafe and unreliable. So, they turn to other people to try and fill that void, but it never works. That is not your fault, that is something that she has to choose to work on. So she doesn't feel safe. What do we do when we are in danger? We protect ourselves. We go into fight, flight, or freeze mode. Your wife reverts to her childhood and teen years because, for her, that works. After all, it got her through her childhood, right? It made her survive. It becomes so ingrained that it becomes an automatic response. Something that she needs to learn is that it's not healthy and it's not true.
> 
> Your wife thinking that you are not safe, that you do not love her, etc., that is just the way her mind works right now - as a direct result of her childhood trauma. YOU know that you are safe, that you love her, etc. and you are baffled that she cannot see that. My wife has spent the last 6 months slowly realizing that I actually do love her and everything she was searching for in affairs, she already had or had the potential to have, with me. That is after being together for 17 years and a year of intensive therapy (several times a week). She is _just now_ starting to feel loved. For my wife, it didn't matter what I said or did, she could come up with several reasons to negate mine. I imagine your wife is the same way. After all, why would she have any worth or why would you love her when her own parents didn't love her? You need to reassure your wife over and over and over that nothing from her childhood will make you leave her or stop loving her. She won't believe it, she can't, but say it anyway. Do not say she can tell you anything and you won't leave, because what if she says she banged the whole football team yesterday, right? Then YOU'RE the liar (to her). Make sure you say "from her childhood". Her parents ignored and neglected her, so she wants you to PROVE that you want her. Unfortunately, that seems to mean chasing her and begging for her while she has phone sex with another man (also satisfying the "daddy issues" she has and searching for things she thinks she's missing). That is not realistic, not an option and not acceptable. You need to make it very clear that you are willing to work on the marriage, but NOT while another man is in the picture.
> 
> Keep in mind, her past is NOT a justification for her cheating. You can use her past to _understand_ her cheating, but not to excuse, dismiss or justify it.
> 
> The effects of childhood abuse are devastating and will reak havoc on the rest of her life, as well as your life and the lives of your children, if she allows it to. That's the key there, "if she allows it to". She, and she alone, has the power to change this. During her childhood, she didn't have a choice/power. Something that she has to realize is... now she _does, _but she has to direct that power in the right direction. She can choose to allow her past abusers and experiences to keep having control over her and allow them to ruin her life, or she can say enough is enough, do something about it and end the cycle.
> 
> Until your wife is ready to unpack the trauma and face her demons, she never will and this will not get better. You cannot force her to go, if you did it would be a waste of time and money. She needs to come to the point of A) knowing she needs help and B) being ready to accept that help. Those are two very different things and may not (most likely will not) come at the same time. In fact, they may NEVER come. Some people will never, ever get help. Therapy is hard, REALLY hard, and someone has to REALLY want it to go through with it. Many people will not do it and as a result, never improve.
> 
> One suggestion I have is to try changing your approach.
> 
> Your wife is defensive about needing therapy and owning up to her problems. So, don't present this as HER problem. Don't tell her that she has trust issues because that will make her defensive. Don't tell her that you want therapy to talk about her past trauma. She already feels broken enough. Telling her that she needs therapy could make her feel more broken because something needs fixing. Turn the focus away from her, and onto the marriage. Ask her if she will go to marriage counseling with you, not for HER issues but for the marriage and for YOU.
> 
> The point of marriage counseling, in this case, is to get her to dip her toes into therapy. Once she is in the door the therapist can start working with her, and you. It might help, or it might not. Alternatively, YOU can start going to therapy for yourself (and you DO need it). This may show her that therapy isn't that bad or encourage her to do the same. If your wife refuses therapy or the work, refuses to even read a book, or keeps up with the affair, then your marriage is over. You can only hold on for so long and you cannot keep playing games. You can wait around and hope she changes but that time may never come. It's like being married to an addict, if they will not get help, at some point you have to call it quits. Things won't change unless your wife does.
> 
> I'll be honest, the journey sucks. It really, really does, but it has been worth it for me. That being said, I am only with my wife because she does the work in therapy and marriage counseling, there has been a lot of progress, she is committed to getting and being better, and when she stumbles she gets back up. If you try to fix this, you are in for a LONG, HARD ride. It gets a hell of a lot worse before it gets better. It will take YEARS of VERY hard work to recover from and her past will never be erased. It will never be "gone", just dealt with in a healthier way. I don't say that to try and scare you off or anything. I say that because it's true and you need to understand that. Dealing with this sort of thing is no easy feat and it's not for everyone. A lot of people in your position would not stay, and you know what, that's okay. Whether you choose to stay or leave, the right choice is whatever is best for YOU and your sanity.


Thanks alot for that, i really appreciate it. Im in this for the long haul. Ive told her i want to work on the marriage and she said she doesnt want to. She has tried her hardest to show me what she needs in the past and i havnt made the right changes she said. I know ive made those changes now. 
Just getting her to see something worth fighting for is hard as she says she cant or wont give up this other man because of the "escape" he gives her. 
I said I want to work to fix her reality so she doesnt have to escape. Then she says thats shes tired of "being good" and just likes being "accepted" by this other man. 

I guess the first goal is to bring her to a place where i can put the proposal to her to work on the marriage and stop talking to this person. She said a whole lot of apologies to me last night but is still adament that she is justified in what she is doing.
Unfortunately the culture shes from is reknowned for broken homes, abuse and being self destructive.

I really commend you for sticking in there in your marriage. I hope you have a speedy journey down the road of recovery.


----------



## bobert

DTG said:


> Thanks alot for that, i really appreciate it. Im in this for the long haul. Ive told her i want to work on the marriage and she said she doesnt want to. She has tried her hardest to show me what she needs in the past and i havnt made the right changes she said. I know ive made those changes now.
> Just getting her to see something worth fighting for is hard as she says she cant or wont give up this other man because of the "escape" he gives her.
> I said I want to work to fix her reality so she doesnt have to escape. Then she says thats shes tired of "being good" and just likes being "accepted" by this other man.
> 
> I guess the first goal is to bring her to a place where i can put the proposal to her to work on the marriage and stop talking to this person. She said a whole lot of apologies to me last night but is still adament that she is justified in what she is doing.
> Unfortunately the culture shes from is reknowned for broken homes, abuse and being self destructive.
> 
> I really commend you for sticking in there in your marriage. I hope you have a speedy journey down the road of recovery.


What changes did she want you to make? What were the issues in the past? Maybe it _is_ too late. People can only handle so much and at a certain point they check out. Remember, it may have lead to her wanting a divorce, but it is _not _an excuse for cheating. 

So, this SUCKS but _sometimes_ understanding and acceptance can help. You could try talking to her about the affair. During those conversations, DO NOT berate her, tell her to end the affair, beg or plead, fight or yell, try to convince her why she's wrong, or talk about your feelings at all (save that for later). Instead, talk to her to understand how she feels about him, how she feels when she's talking to him, why that makes her feel good, why she's choosing him, etc. Then accept how she _feels_. DO NOT accept the actions of the affair, that's not what I'm saying AT ALL. What you can do is accept and understand how she feels about the OM and the whole situation. NO ONE wants to hear their spouse talk about that, I know. I hated hearing anything about my wife's AP's or her feelings. You absolutely have to be strong and control yourself emotionally. Ideally, you would be doing that with a therapist but that doesn't seem likely to happen.

That feeling of acceptance (by you), could help. She clearly needs to feel truly accepted by you. 

Beyond that, you need to show her that while you can understand and accept her _feelings, _the actions are unacceptable and that you will not tolerate that. Stop telling her to end the affair, instead tell her that you are unwilling to be her husband if she is going to have an OM in the picture. Tell her "Well, if that's who you want to be with then go be with him because you don't get both of us". Then live like you are already done. Right now, she probably won't care - have hope and just wait. I would give it a month. You have to be willing to lose everything and while that may seem counterproductive, it's not. 

If you do try to win her back, it will have the opposite effect that you're going for. It will push her away, or she will stay but keep OM around as well. Right now she thinks she is getting all the attention, affirmation, desire, intimacy, etc. that she needs from the OM. Do not give her more of it. Why would she stop the affair if she is getting the best of both worlds? Do not give her anything. Affairs are about selfishness, fantasy, and escape. By doing those things you are showing your wife that it is indeed, all about her. 

Stop telling her to end it. Do not beg and plead. Do not chase her. Do not pursue her. Do not show her affection. No dates. Do not cook for her, give her flowers, etc. No late-night conversations. No comforting her. Do not share a bed. No physical intimacy whatsoever. Pretend she has COVID-19. Do not be there for every beck and call. Do not jump to help her. Do your side of the chores and that's it. Create a schedule for your children - your time and her time, do not bend on that for her to have OM time. Do not give her the luxury of bouncing back and forth between you and the OM. She wants a divorce and her OM? Then show her what her life is going to be like when she divorces you and chooses the phone sex OM who, despite what she thinks, cannot fulfill all of her needs from another continent. 

And if it does end for good... Well, you're already on the road to detaching and living a life on your own.


----------



## BluesPower

DTG said:


> Thanks alot for that, i really appreciate it. Im in this for the long haul. Ive told her i want to work on the marriage and she said she doesnt want to. She has tried her hardest to show me what she needs in the past and i havnt made the right changes she said. I know ive made those changes now.
> Just getting her to see something worth fighting for is hard as she says she cant or wont give up this other man because of the "escape" he gives her.
> I said I want to work to fix her reality so she doesnt have to escape. Then she says thats shes tired of "being good" and just likes being "accepted" by this other man.
> 
> I guess the first goal is to bring her to a place where i can put the proposal to her to work on the marriage and stop talking to this person. She said a whole lot of apologies to me last night but is still adament that she is justified in what she is doing.
> Unfortunately the culture shes from is reknowned for broken homes, abuse and being self destructive.


Why are you acting like her cheating is your fault. Have you been reading? 

It is not your fault. You are only responsible for your 50% of the marriage, not her cheating.

You see that, right?


----------



## DTG

BluesPower said:


> Why are you acting like her cheating is your fault. Have you been reading?
> 
> It is not your fault. You are only responsible for your 50% of the marriage, not her cheating.
> 
> You see that, right?


I do see that. I guess im disappointed i didnt realise this has to do with her past trauma, and i expected her to be more commited.


----------



## DTG

bobert said:


> What changes did she want you to make? What were the issues in the past? Maybe it _is_ too late. People can only handle so much and at a certain point they check out. Remember, it may have lead to her wanting a divorce, but it is _not _an excuse for cheating.
> 
> So, this SUCKS but _sometimes_ understanding and acceptance can help. You could try talking to her about the affair. During those conversations, DO NOT berate her, tell her to end the affair, beg or plead, fight or yell, try to convince her why she's wrong, or talk about your feelings at all (save that for later). Instead, talk to her to understand how she feels about him, how she feels when she's talking to him, why that makes her feel good, why she's choosing him, etc. Then accept how she _feels_. DO NOT accept the actions of the affair, that's not what I'm saying AT ALL. What you can do is accept and understand how she feels about the OM and the whole situation. NO ONE wants to hear their spouse talk about that, I know. I hated hearing anything about my wife's AP's or her feelings. You absolutely have to be strong and control yourself emotionally. Ideally, you would be doing that with a therapist but that doesn't seem likely to happen.
> 
> That feeling of acceptance (by you), could help. She clearly needs to feel truly accepted by you.
> 
> Beyond that, you need to show her that while you can understand and accept her _feelings, _the actions are unacceptable and that you will not tolerate that. Stop telling her to end the affair, instead tell her that you are unwilling to be her husband if she is going to have an OM in the picture. Tell her "Well, if that's who you want to be with then go be with him because you don't get both of us". Then live like you are already done. Right now, she probably won't care - have hope and just wait. I would give it a month. You have to be willing to lose everything and while that may seem counterproductive, it's not.
> 
> If you do try to win her back, it will have the opposite effect that you're going for. It will push her away, or she will stay but keep OM around as well. Right now she thinks she is getting all the attention, affirmation, desire, intimacy, etc. that she needs from the OM. Do not give her more of it. Why would she stop the affair if she is getting the best of both worlds? Do not give her anything. Affairs are about selfishness, fantasy, and escape. By doing those things you are showing your wife that it is indeed, all about her.
> 
> Stop telling her to end it. Do not beg and plead. Do not chase her. Do not pursue her. Do not show her affection. No dates. Do not cook for her, give her flowers, etc. No late-night conversations. No comforting her. Do not share a bed. No physical intimacy whatsoever. Pretend she has COVID-19. Do not be there for every beck and call. Do not jump to help her. Do your side of the chores and that's it. Create a schedule for your children - your time and her time, do not bend on that for her to have OM time. Do not give her the luxury of bouncing back and forth between you and the OM. She wants a divorce and her OM? Then show her what her life is going to be like when she divorces you and chooses the phone sex OM who, despite what she thinks, cannot fulfill all of her needs from another continent.
> 
> And if it does end for good... Well, you're already on the road to detaching and living a life on your own.


Im prepared to go down the "let her go" road the thing i struggle with is i do that for a day and shel notice it and start asking why, and she says "its because ive given up on her". I guess i have to, like you say, make it clear that she can only have one man. 
She has been extremely open about how this man makes her feel (apart from the sexual side of things which she still thinks is a secret) like being accepted for who she really is. Theyr in the "dating honeymoon stage" where its all very thrilling and dreams are free.
Ive definitely been accepting of what she says when she talks about OM and what she gets out of it, the annoying thing is shes always asking me questions and trying to get a reaction out of me. Ive said that she cant really expect anything between her and me if theres another man involved. Trouble is she reckons wer not "married" anyway. I guess its time for my actions to speak and actually show her what life without me would be like.

In the past her main complaint was that i wasnt loving in a caring way. Like id get annoyed if she was sick and just be frustrated by her lack of helping out. The last 2 years ive worked on average around 50hours a week, ive looked after the kids completely whenever im home, ive cooked dinner 60% of the time if not more, done all the garden chores, done 80% of the cleaning and washing, ive always been ready to meet her sexual needs. I honestly love her enough to not worry about doing all this but she said she would do more if she was happier and if i showed any frustration at my work load or implied that she should do more it made her unhappy and im back square one doing everything and trying make her happy again. With 2 babies during this time ive done it out of love and care for her but it just wasnt seen that way i guess. She wanted the fuzzy feeling of being in love and thats what her main complaint was. Ive shown her that i dont get annoyed at her being sick anymore which was a frustration thing for me as she hasnt been too healthy (partly her fault) and i work under alot of deadlines at work.

Sorry thats a long rant.


----------



## hinterdir

DTG said:


> Thanks it means alot. Shes extremely confused. She broke down in tears last night saying she was so lost and wondered if i still loved her. Its so hard to know what to do when i realise that she feels no self worth and feels like she needs to find it elsewhere. I dont want to be sucked into any games she might be playing but im aware that the person i know is lost in there somewhere and its hard letting her know that i do love her no matter what shes done without just being a crutch for her when she feels guilty for her actions.


Have empathy....but it has to have limits.
She must be faithful and honor you as her lifelong, exclusive mate.
She can't get love, understanding, sympathy, empathy while fornicating outside of her marriage seal. 
If she breaks that seal that then that breaks the marriage. 
Exclusive fidelity is the seal and separates your relationship together from every other person in the world. 
If she breaks that....you owe her nothing.
"Except for the cause of fornication...causeth her to commit adultery"


----------



## BluesPower

DTG said:


> I do see that. I guess im disappointed i didnt realise this has to do with her past trauma, and i expected her to be more commited.


The thing is this. She is a grown woman, she knew she had trauma. She knew she needed therapy at least. But those are not the decisions, adult healthy decisions, that she made. 

She, for whatever reason made the decision to cheat, She mad the decision to NOT turn to you and instead chose to betray you and your marriage. 

That was her decision, it really does not matter why she did it right now, she did it. She chose to do it. Nobody made her cheat. 

She chose by herself to screw you over and screw, at least, him. 

This is not your fault. You need to wake up about what is going on. 

YOU CANNOT FIX THIS only she could, if she wanted to, which she does not...


----------



## DTG

hinterdir said:


> Have empathy....but it has to have limits.
> She must be faithful and honor you as her lifelong, exclusive mate.
> She can't get love, understanding, sympathy, empathy while fornicating outside of her marriage seal.
> If she breaks that seal that then that breaks the marriage.
> Exclusive fidelity is the seal and separates your relationship together from every other person in the world.
> If she breaks that....you owe her nothing.
> "Except for the cause of fornication...causeth her to commit adultery"


For sure. Im just trying to find the right balance of how much care and empathy i show at this stage when im pretty much going down the 180 path


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## DTG

BluesPower said:


> The thing is this. She is a grown woman, she knew she had trauma. She knew she needed therapy at least. But those are not the decisions, adult healthy decisions, that she made.
> 
> She, for whatever reason made the decision to cheat, She mad the decision to NOT turn to you and instead chose to betray you and your marriage.
> 
> That was her decision, it really does not matter why she did it right now, she did it. She chose to do it. Nobody made her cheat.
> 
> She chose by herself to screw you over and screw, at least, him.
> 
> This is not your fault. You need to wake up about what is going on.
> 
> YOU CANNOT FIX THIS only she could, if she wanted to, which she does not...


Your 100% right. I know she was forced to do counseling as a teen but school counselers are not the sort of people youd open up to, they just told her she was depressed. 
To use her words.
"Its messed up"
Choice is hers for sure.


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## Tilted 1

hinterdir said:


> Have empathy....but it has to have limits.
> She must be faithful and honor you as her lifelong, exclusive mate.
> She can't get love, understanding, sympathy, empathy while fornicating outside of her marriage seal.
> If she breaks that seal that then that breaks the marriage.
> Exclusive fidelity is the seal and separates your relationship together from every other person in the world.
> If she breaks that....you owe her nothing.
> "Except for the cause of fornication...causeth her to commit adultery"


And she's had 6 yrs of empathy. Enough is enough.


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## DTG

Update:

My wife just said she thinks she might need therapy!!!
With not even a suggestion from me.

She hasnt broken contact with the OM but they decided to "just be friends". Im letting it sit for now and just getting on with myself, i think shes telling him all about her problems which i hate, but apparently hes sticking up for me, so maybe he suggested therapy, either way im letting her find her own way back to me.
She has starting back tracking although theres no commitment or accountability yet.

I intend to get therapy for myself anyway and try and sort out my codependency and whatnot. 

Long road ahead but at least theres progress for her own mental health.


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## Marduk

DTG said:


> Update:
> 
> My wife just said she thinks she might need therapy!!!
> With not even a suggestion from me.
> 
> She hasnt broken contact with the OM but they decided to "just be friends". Im letting it sit for now and just getting on with myself, i think shes telling him all about her problems which i hate, but apparently hes sticking up for me, so maybe he suggested therapy, either way im letting her find her own way back to me.
> She has starting back tracking although theres no commitment or accountability yet.
> 
> I intend to get therapy for myself anyway and try and sort out my codependency and whatnot.
> 
> Long road ahead but at least theres progress for her own mental health.


He dumped her so she's willing to pretend to work things out with you. It's also why he's pushing her back to you - he doesn't want her any more now that he's had all he wants from her and now she's just a pain in the ass and work.

This is all temporary while she looks for someone else. The therapy is either theatrics or that she knows she needs to get better at picking guys - again, so she picks a better next one.


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## She'sStillGotIt

DTG said:


> Update:
> 
> My wife just said she thinks she might need therapy!!!
> With not even a suggestion from me.
> 
> She hasnt broken contact with the OM but they decided to "just be friends".


LOL...so in other words, her boyfriend no longer feels the risk is worth the reward and doesn't want her or her drama anymore, so she has to eat some humble pie in order to keep herself from being kicked out your front door (where she belongs). Talk about a manipulative opportunist - she's the damned Queen.

Her sudden, oh-so-heartfelt comment about needing professional help was merely designed to soften you up so you start believing her ******** story about how her head is messed up and THAT'S why she was making the choices she was making. What a crock of ********. *Every choice she made *was based on her own selfish needs and desires and you OP, _you _were just collateral damage in the process that she didn't give a rat's ass about. But now, she needs to come running back to you because she has no other options - so she's going to tell you anything she thinks will soften you up - including that crap about therapy.

That is *SUCH* a typical cheater maneuver, throwing the old therapy bone on the table as though therapy is some kind of magic cure for anything that ails ya. It's NOT. So big damned deal - she sits in some chair in a therapist's office for an hour a week ... it's not like she's climbing Mt. Everest. It takes almost no effort at all so it's HARDLY her 'working hard' to make things better. Pffft. What a joke.

She's hoping she can manipulate you into forgetting how deeply she *disrespected* you - and CONTINUES to disrespect you because she's STILL in touch with her boyfriend.

She's just throwing an 11th hour Hail May and trying to rebuild the bridge she was so happy to burn when she thought she had a future with lover boy. Now that he *doesn't* want her, she'll tell you anything you want to hear because she's OUT of other options.. Sadly, it sounds as though you're already setting yourself up to "reconcile" with this phony in the near future. I put quotes on the word "reconcile" because it won't be real.


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## Lostinthought61

Guilt is a very strong emotion and it seems that it’s being played on both sides ; she has guilted you in believing you dropped her and you are using it to stay in this marriage and allowing her to stay in communication with the OM and you thinking you have some control....you have none....you are allowing her to hold all the cards . You are like the drowning man grasping for anything to stay afloat when you don’t realize your still anchored to dead weight that keeps bringing you down...only by letting go of the weight will you survive, only by walking way the game will you gain self respect....


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## Ladyortiz602

DTG said:


> Hello all.
> Im a young husband seeking an ear to hear and to listen to any advice.
> 
> We have been together 6 years and married 4 years and have two daughters 2yo and 9month old.
> Ive neglected my wife emotionaly due to stresses of work and having the children, ive always been abit insecure, introverted and "needy", not so much now but it is a factor in this mess.
> My wife has had messed up life of abuse and neglect and upon meeting me i was her source of happiness and comfort. However i did not always live up to her expectations as i was unexperienced (shes my one and only).
> As of today this is what shes told me.
> 
> Shes not sure she is in love with me.
> She doesnt trust me to consistently be there emotionaly for her.
> She feels unfufilled and unaccepted.
> She has meet a man online who flirts with her and makes her feel good and sexy, this man is also suicidal so she feels the need to help him and thus spends hours on the ph to him giggling and being "jokingly" flirty.
> Her ex bf reached out to her as he was going through a breakup, is suicidal and told her he still loves her, she has phoned him a few times.
> Her sex drive has shot up as she didnt believe my compliments but believes theirs.
> 
> I feel like i cant put my foot down and tell her to break off the ph calls and put boundries on her contacting them as she does not trust me to be any different from the past. What do i do? Try and prove myself different then ask her to stop? Or suddenly become assertive and put my foot down and maybe shel see that as an improvement? Or shel see it as selfish and not understanding of me to want that, as it makes her and the other guys happy.


Re assure her of the man you were when you guys met remind her of the reasons you love her and also of the reason you guys got married I would make her stop 🛑 ASAP tell her it’s not rite for her To be talking to any other man in that way other than her husband everyone makes mistakes let her know that you will not put up with that put your foot down as a man my husband would seriously beat my ass and kick me out you have to put your foot down as a man that is so disrespectful for her to even say those things to you and for her to think it’s OK to talk to other men when married sit down and talk to her and let her know that you have changed and that is in the past And the only way you guys will have a future together is if she stops doing this and gives you a chance to show her the new man you are Let us know what happens I wish you nothing but the best of luck no matter what you did and you do not deserve that keep your head up and stay positive


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## DTG

Lostinthought61 said:


> Guilt is a very strong emotion and it seems that it’s being played on both sides ; she has guilted you in believing you dropped her and you are using it to stay in this marriage and allowing her to stay in communication with the OM and you thinking you have some control....you have none....you are allowing her to hold all the cards . You are like the drowning man grasping for anything to stay afloat when you don’t realize your still anchored to dead weight that keeps bringing you down...only by letting go of the weight will you survive, only by walking way the game will you gain self respect....


I know. I feel like an absoloute tool for not feeling i can put my foot down as she "doesnt see herself as married" so its like i dont have ground to stand on for giving her a telling off.

The problem i have now is after reading up on the effects of CSA and trauma, almost everything they say is spot on. Everything she says is exactly the same as what other people say who are suffering.

Her even mentioning therapy is massive because shes never ever even said that word before.

I want her to get the help she needs whether that ends up meaning she realises that i am loving and caring or not.


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## DTG

Ladyortiz602 said:


> Re assure her of the man you were when you guys met remind her of the reasons you love her and also of the reason you guys got married I would make her stop 🛑 ASAP tell her it’s not rite for her To be talking to any other man in that way other than her husband everyone makes mistakes let her know that you will not put up with that put your foot down as a man my husband would seriously beat my ass and kick me out you have to put your foot down as a man that is so disrespectful for her to even say those things to you and for her to think it’s OK to talk to other men when married sit down and talk to her and let her know that you have changed and that is in the past And the only way you guys will have a future together is if she stops doing this and gives you a chance to show her the new man you are Let us know what happens I wish you nothing but the best of luck no matter what you did and you do not deserve that keep your head up and stay positive


Thanks.
I guess i realised i wasnt a strong enough leader as a husband too late so when i did start standing up for what is right she had already checked out of the marriage. 

Unfortunately her trust issues mean her commiting back to me is something she is reluctant to do. Its all just a mess at the moment. I spend about 9 hours + a week on the ph to my support team and have spend my spare time reading psalms just to stay sane.


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## DTG

Long overdue update.

So alot has happened in the last few months.
I found out her parents had noticed she was acting strange and they became helpful allies.
I quit my job and moved towns for us all to live with her parents so that she would have to be accountable for her every move to her parents.
I decided to move towards getting a house and creating a stable home enviroment for me and the kids with or without her.
I then found my ground to stand on and didnt budge no matter what she threw at me.
She would yell at me to leave and never come back, i would never leave and would never compromise on what was true.

We have been in our new home 2 weeks now and my wife is better then she has ever been.
She has gone from saying i was the most unloving horrible person to saying the complete opposite and to wondering why i even want to be married to her after whats shes done the last few months.
She has stopped talking to her "friends" and is doing a 180 on all the things she has been saying and doing.

We talk openly and honestly about our relationship, she has her wedding ring back on and we are going to renew our vows.

Her love is not just words, it has evidence in her actions which honestly are more loving and pleasant then i can ever remember them being.

I will be trusting but vigilant, and am now more confident as a husband and leader of my marriage.

Thank you to all who gave advice and gave me the wake up call i needed, ill never be a weak doormat again.


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## Lostinthought61

glad things have taken a turn for the better in your life. my question is "has she opened up about any feelings or discussion she had with him? or is she trying to rug-sweep it.


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## bobert

Did your wife start therapy? And is she still in it?


DTG said:


> Her love is not just words, it has evidence in her actions which honestly are more loving and pleasant then i can ever remember them being.


That's great... but it has only been for _two weeks_. That is NOT enough time for real, long-lasting change. If things are still going well in 6-12 months, _then_ I'd think about renewing vows.


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## DTG

Lostinthought61 said:


> glad things have taken a turn for the better in your life. my question is "has she opened up about any feelings or discussion she had with him? or is she trying to rug-sweep it.


Its a gradual thing, she started off denying it all, but before we got back together she started taking more responsability although not as fully as id like


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## DTG

bobert said:


> Did your wife start therapy? And is she still in it?
> 
> That's great... but it has only been for _two weeks_. That is NOT enough time for real, long-lasting change. If things are still going well in 6-12 months, _then_ I'd think about renewing vows.


Ive been taking it slow and not pushing anything on her but letting her come to the realisation.
Shes a very stubborn person.
I didnt push getting her to put her ring back on, over the space of a couple of months she slowly changed from wanting to come back to me on her own terms as if it was all my fault, to last week wondering why i would even want to be with her, and doubting i wanted her as my wife, so i gave her ring back.
She has made this sort of progress in all areas of her life.
The fact that she hasnt been fully accountable does play on my mind but im sticking to my strategy of not budging from the truth and moving forward with the kids, and so far she has responded by slowly coming to the realisation of what shes done, i just hope the realisation continues onto the problems of her past....


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## bobert

DTG said:


> Ive been taking it slow and not pushing anything on her but letting her come to the realisation.
> Shes a very stubborn person.
> I didnt push getting her to put her ring back on, over the space of a couple of months she slowly changed from wanting to come back to me on her own terms as if it was all my fault, to last week wondering why i would even want to be with her, and doubting i wanted her as my wife, so i gave her ring back.
> She has made this sort of progress in all areas of her life.
> The fact that she hasnt been fully accountable does play on my mind but im sticking to my strategy of not budging from the truth and moving forward with the kids, and so far she has responded by slowly coming to the realisation of what shes done, i just hope the realisation continues onto the problems of her past....


So, personally, I think you are screwing up here. 

You are giving her WAY too much, WAY too fast. If you keep giving her what she wants and moving forward, then what reason does she have to change? What is her incentive? 

Honestly, reconciliation shouldn't even be an option right now, let alone living together (she could be at her parents), buying a house, giving her rings back, and renewing your vows. It could change (and I hope it does) but currently your wife is not doing enough to be a good candidate for reconciliation. She isn't taking full responsibility, she isn't in therapy, you are heading down the road of rug sweeping, etc. 

You giving that ring to her is a sign that she IS doing enough, yet in reality, she's not. So stop showing her that she is. 

For me, reconciliation wasn't even an _option _until my wife met certain requirements. One of them being in therapy for all her childhood issues. If the underlying cause is not fixed, this WILL happen again. It's only a matter of time...Therapy is an absolute must. 

I hear you and understand that you are crossing your fingers and hoping that she will start. We both know that you cannot force her to do it. But you need to slow down dude. She is _slowly _changing, and hopefully that sticks and keeps going. 

Something you need to do is decide on a timeframe. You cannot wait around forever hoping she will change. You need to have a date in mind so that it's not always "one more month" and all of a sudden you're still here two years later.


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## DTG

I think i struggle with knowing what i can and cant enforce.
Like she hated me and basically attack every part of who i was, then after me cutting her off she has seen what she lost and now i cant keep her away from me.

Im not always verbally telling her that she has to do this or that i just cut her off from me when shes out of line and she knows straight away that i dont approve of her behaviour, and now she has cut out all the behaviours that she had indulged in because she had to choose.

What happened sexually over the ph between her and this other man (and probably a lesbian "friend" too) is the one thing i want her to own up on but as far as she knows i dont know she went that far as i spied on her to find out, also shel think if she confesses to it she might lose me.

In terms of her getting therapy and coming clean on her past i dont know how to approach it on how it affects her now because its a topic we never talk about.


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## bobert

There are some steps you have missed that every BS should require, regardless of the situation. Two of those things are:

1) A full confession and timeline of the affair (possibly with a polygraph)
2) Therapy for the WS

You don't have either of those and until you do, reconciliation should not be an option. Sit down with your wife and tell her you need some things from her before you can feel safe moving forward with her. This is not you forcing her to do something, it's setting a personal boundary so that YOU feel safe. 

Starting with #1. Your wife has only confessed to what she thinks you know, which is very common. Tell your wife that you know she hasn't come clean about her infidelity (don't hint at how many affairs) and she has ONE chance to tell you everything or you will be filing for divorce. Then, if she lies, you must follow through and divorce because she will have proven she is not a candidate for reconciliation. 

Do NOT under ANY circumstances tell her what you know. Just tell her you know she is lying and she has one shot to come clean about everything. 

For #2, every WS absolutely needs therapy regardless of their past. The point of therapy is for the WS to figure out why they allowed themselves to get into an affair and to fix those issues. So it's not just your wife that has to do it. You don't necessarily have to bring up her past, but she does in therapy and since therapists are not mind readers she will have to do that on her own. As she goes through therapy you will know if she's doing the work or not. 

I get the feeling that you are trying to "bribe" her to own up to everything. Example: "If I give her rings back to her, maybe she will feel more secure in our relationship and will confess". I also get the feeling that you don't want to rock the boat because things are feeling good now and giving you (false) hope. If you two don't do the hard work, then all the "good" will come crashing down. Remember, it takes 2-5 YEARS to heal from infidelity. Right now the clock is pause because the real work hasn't started. You don't want to drag it out even longer. 

Two questions... Has she cut off ALL contact with the OM and anyone else you suspect she had an affair with? She should also send a no-contact letter or email. Do you have full access to her phone, call records, computer, etc. anytime you want?


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## aine

DTG said:


> Thanks for reply. I have repented in the past but i know for myself this time is different for me as i can actually see what changes need to be made to me. This is definitely my last chance so im not sure i can ask for her to tell me what SHE needs as "i should know" so its just guess work really


STOP taking the blame.


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## aine

DTG said:


> e times in my be





DTG said:


> Ive been taking it slow and not pushing anything on her but letting her come to the realisation.
> Shes a very stubborn person.
> I didnt push getting her to put her ring back on, over the space of a couple of months she slowly changed from wanting to come back to me on her own terms as if it was all my fault, to last week wondering why i would even want to be with her, and doubting i wanted her as my wife, so i gave her ring back.
> She has made this sort of progress in all areas of her life.
> The fact that she hasnt been fully accountable does play on my mind but im sticking to my strategy of not budging from the truth and moving forward with the kids, and so far she has responded by slowly coming to the realisation of what shes done, i just hope the realisation continues onto the problems of her past....


Is she still in therapy? You are still so young both of you. I would say she has a personality disorder, to be able to swing from one extreme to the other like that. Please please be cautious.


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## DTG

bobert said:


> There are some steps you have missed that every BS should require, regardless of the situation. Two of those things are:
> 
> 1) A full confession and timeline of the affair (possibly with a polygraph)
> 2) Therapy for the WS
> 
> You don't have either of those and until you do, reconciliation should not be an option. Sit down with your wife and tell her you need some things from her before you can feel safe moving forward with her. This is not you forcing her to do something, it's setting a personal boundary so that YOU feel safe.
> 
> Starting with #1. Your wife has only confessed to what she thinks you know, which is very common. Tell your wife that you know she hasn't come clean about her infidelity (don't hint at how many affairs) and she has ONE chance to tell you everything or you will be filing for divorce. Then, if she lies, you must follow through and divorce because she will have proven she is not a candidate for reconciliation.
> 
> Do NOT under ANY circumstances tell her what you know. Just tell her you know she is lying and she has one shot to come clean about everything.
> 
> For #2, every WS absolutely needs therapy regardless of their past. The point of therapy is for the WS to figure out why they allowed themselves to get into an affair and to fix those issues. So it's not just your wife that has to do it. You don't necessarily have to bring up her past, but she does in therapy and since therapists are not mind readers she will have to do that on her own. As she goes through therapy you will know if she's doing the work or not.
> 
> I get the feeling that you are trying to "bribe" her to own up to everything. Example: "If I give her rings back to her, maybe she will feel more secure in our relationship and will confess". I also get the feeling that you don't want to rock the boat because things are feeling good now and giving you (false) hope. If you two don't do the hard work, then all the "good" will come crashing down. Remember, it takes 2-5 YEARS to heal from infidelity. Right now the clock is pause because the real work hasn't started. You don't want to drag it out even longer.
> 
> Two questions... Has she cut off ALL contact with the OM and anyone else you suspect she had an affair with? She should also send a no-contact letter or email. Do you have full access to her phone, call records, computer, etc. anytime you want?


Thanks, i really appreciate that.
She cut off all communication first with the man, and she approached me about how to cut off the woman who if anything was just a really bad influence and was basically trying to woo her.
I havnt asked for access, her interactions with these people was through a game and an app which was deleted when she cut off the man.


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## DTG

aine said:


> Is she still in therapy? You are still so young both of you. I would say she has a personality disorder, to be able to swing from one extreme to the other like that. Please please be cautious.


She definitely has deep scars. Im keeping my eyes and ears open and gonna see what i can do about therapy


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