# How do you distinguish being "in love" vs. "the fog"???



## broder62

How do you distinguish being truly "in love" versus being in "the fog"???


----------



## jfv

isn't 'the fog' the infatuation part of the being 'in love'?


----------



## MattMatt

In love is with someone you should be with.

In the fog is with someone you should not be with.


----------



## Writer

I would say that you could be in a "fog" when you are first in love. I know I was with my husband. I moved 6 hours away after 2 weeks to live with him and be with him. If I was thinking clearly, I wouldn't have done it.

With my AP, we would make plans to be together. We would talk about how he would live with us when we were in the Open Marriage. Then, in the EA, he replaced my husband in my fantasy world.

In truth, my AP would not move with me. He would not out my husband. He would not take me out of my husband's life. Yet, in the fog, I believed he would.

The fog is a deceitful thing. It is everything: happy, rainbows, and unicorns. You can't see in front of you. You are blinded to the one person's whose pain should matter: your BS.


----------



## Writer

How so? I'm just being honest. 

Well, I did see the typo in my post, but that's about it.

Also, I should say that all this happened in '07. We have recently closed off our marriage. I haven't been in contact with the OM in years. Our marriage is stronger than what it was before. We learned from both of our betrayals, and moved forward.

Trust me, I don't have any excuses for what I did. I was selfish. Plain and simple.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

recent_cloud said:


> you are extraordinarily
> 
> socially
> 
> and psychologically
> 
> very confused


there is no right and wrong answer.How can you say such things when Writer is giving her answer based on her life experiences?? 

From where I'm sitting you seem to be the one who is "extraordinarily socially and psychologically very confused."


----------



## Mavash.

MattMatt said:


> In love is with someone you should be with.
> 
> In the fog is with someone you should not be with.


That's a very good question and while I think the feelings are similar I think THIS aptly describes the difference. If it's with someone you know is wrong for you (they're married, have cheated multiple times in the past, have an addiction, are abusive, etc.) and you still think you can move foward you're in the fog.


----------



## sinnister

ScarletBegonias said:


> there is no right and wrong answer.How can you say such things when Writer is giving her answer based on her life experiences??
> 
> From where I'm sitting you seem to be the one who is "extraordinarily socially and psychologically very confused."


I'm confused by that response too. Maybe he didnt mean to quote Writer? :scratchhead:

If you just look at the answer and forget that Writer was quoted it makes sense as a definition of being in the fog.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

sinnister said:


> I'm confused by that response too. Maybe he didnt mean to quote Writer? :scratchhead:
> 
> If you just look at the answer and forget that Writer was quoted it makes sense as a definition of being in the fog.


that would make more sense.if that's the case then I apologize for misreading.


----------



## Writer

That was the reason for my "How So" comment. It just left me bewildered (and I write bewilderment). It didn't make sense to me. The good news is that I caught that typo about him taking my husband's life. Wow. That typo made me look crazy.

But, back on topic, I think we all can agree that the fog is one dangerous, deceptive thing, and that R can't truly happen until the WS is out of it and expresses remorse through actions.


----------



## Fightingtilltheend

Are you married? Love is a choice and anyone that has been married for years and years will tell you that it is a conscious decision to love your spouse. So to answer your question....the difference is anything outside of your marriage that you think is better greener and willing to throw away your vows for someone else...that is the fog.....because people dont think clearly through that time. The stupid "In love" feeling that people speak off....those things do not last....thats a feeling of infatuation that gets us all...I hope that makes sense.


----------



## This is me

A. Infatuation is mother nature's helping hand.
B. Love is a commitment and a desire to be and care for someone.
C. Fog is usually a MLC, which masks as A to the confused.


----------



## Racer

To me its fairly easy. The “fog” is more about taking on a belief system of “how you want it to be”. This is often vastly different than how it really is. Basically you devalue or throw out any information or facts that might contradict how you want it to appear. It’s a big old sales job in your head where you are reasoning yourself into an opinion or belief. 

“Love” just is.... it is an emotion like “hate”. You can’t ‘reason’ it.


----------



## Maricha75

This is me said:


> A. Infatuation is mother nature's helping hand.
> B. Love is a commitment and a desire to be and care for someone.
> *C. Fog is usually a MLC, which masks as A to the confused.*


MLC... in your late twenties/early thirties? :scratchhead:

For that matter, when WOULD you classify it as a MLC? Age range, I mean. And if someone is having any form of sexual contact with someone outside the marriage...while the marriage is NOT open, it is an affair. If there is an emotional connection to someone...which SHOULD be a connection to the spouse, it is affair. MLC or not.


----------



## meson

To understand the difference between “in love” and the “the fog” one needs to understand emotions and what love is to some extent. Love is the feeling or feelings produced in reaction to a chemical c0cktail and connections in the brain created in response to external stimuli by association.

In short your brain responds to people & things by creating neural connections that are mediated by specific neurochemicals. Thus when you are reminded of or see that person your brain circuits fire the recognition and produce those feelings. Those feelings are emotions and are a result of the associations previously created. The emotion of love is closely tied with the reward systems of the brain which are also identified with addiction. Addictions produce a strong desire for more and serve to replace other neural connections to other people and things.

Much has been learned about the neurological basis for love in the past dozen years but it is still not fully understood. I have included a link to a review article below for those inclined to learn more. Even though emotions and the basis for them are not fully understood, they are understood well enough to create the generalizations above. These generalizations are enough to explain a significant amount of the emotions encountered in a daily reading of TAM.

Two different aspects of love have been mentioned in this thread, infatuation and long term (true) love. It has been shown that infatuation is linked to the euphoria, eroticism and excitement chemicals (see quote below) whereas long term love is associated with more nurturance, protectiveness, low stress. Two commonly distinct types of love can be understood as extremely different mixtures of the same chemicals. For each individual that you have love for will probably have a slightly different mixture of the chemical c0cktail. For instance family may be high on nurturing and so on. The point is that all types of love from romantic to agape are manifestations of a different mixture of the c0cktail. It’s basically the same chemical bath for everyone you love. 

When you recognize this, it also explains that it is possible to be romantically in love with two people at the same time. It is not probable though because several of the neurochemicals including oxytocin actively break neural connections with others. Oxytocin is released via sex through orgasm and is responsible for the nurturing long term bonding components of love.

Now back to the question about the difference between “in love” and “the fog”. If you are married and you are still in love then you are probably at the long term true love spectrum of the chemical mixture. You probably (but not necessarily) went through an infatuation stage with your spouse. However since you may not have been attached to anyone else your new addiction to your pre-spouse may have gone unnoticed except by friends that saw less and less of you because you were then head over heels in love. Friends understand that is what happens often. 

Now suppose you are married and in long term love but begin to have feelings for another. The addiction components of the c0cktail propel you to escalate contact as much as possible. Soon you get the rush and excitement and you are infatuated when the other. The escalation of contact from the desire to be with the other leads to a reprioritization of what is important. These new priorities are at odds with the marriage and don’t make sense. Furthermore when the oxytocin kicks in and neural connections with the spouse are replaced with the other then links to those old feelings diminish and disappear. This is often noted as rewriting history of the relationship because the way you remember things has changed and is changing. This is the fog. It is noticed more because it is in stark contrast to an existing relationship. Now if you have lost the love for your spouse you will still go through the steps above but your connections to your spouse have already been lost through other means and it is still the fog.



A review paper on emotion can be found at

The brain basis of emotion: A meta-analytic review, BEHAVIORAL AND BRAIN SCIENCES (2012) 35, 121–202, Lindquist et. al.
http://nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~lindqukr/docs/Lindquist_etal_BBS2012.pdf

That above link is stale, see:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22617651

http://www.unc.edu/~kal29/docs/Lindquist_etal_BBS2012.pdf


A good excerpt that shows the chemicals involved is:

Similarly, love is arguably a primary affect at the ecological level, associated with intimate displays (contact comfort, pheromones). The subjective experiences associated with love may be associated with a neurochemical c0cktail including high endorphins (euphoria), gonadotropinreleasing hormone (GnRH: eroticism), dopamine (DA: excitement), oxytocin (OXY: nurturance); vasopressin (AVP: protectiveness), CRH (stress); and low serotonin (5-HT: submission) (see Ortigue et al. 2010; Panksepp 1998). Understanding of these systems, their evolutionary and genetic bases, their complex interrelationships, and their communicative role in social interaction is proceeding apace. - Ross W. Buck, Prime elements of subjectively experienced feelings and desires: Imaging the emotional ****tail


----------



## This is me

Maricha75 said:


> MLC... in your late twenties/early thirties? :scratchhead:
> 
> For that matter, when WOULD you classify it as a MLC? Age range, I mean. And if someone is having any form of sexual contact with someone outside the marriage...while the marriage is NOT open, it is an affair. If there is an emotional connection to someone...which SHOULD be a connection to the spouse, it is affair. MLC or not.


MLC can happen in the 20s, 30s, 50s but mostly in the 40's.

I believe the fog of the MLC is responsible for a large portion of failed marriages. It basically makes the person unhappy with their life enough to cheat to feel better. Like eating fast food it usually makes them feel worse later then they want to feel better again, so they do it again. Its all reactive behavior.


----------



## Entropy3000

broder62 said:


> How do you distinguish being truly "in love" versus being in "the fog"???


I say it is the same thing. Same brain chemicals. 

Whether it is seen as infatuation or true love is very subjective.

The fact is that this is about brain chemicals oxytocin and dopamine.

I know a BS wants to look as this as being something else and that is all well and good but it is about feelings. 

This is an addiction to a person. Folks are wired to bond and fall in love. Period.

Stepping back one can judge this if they like. But typically we bond in friendship which creates oxytocin in our brains. So we love the other person. But we also can love our brother and other folks. At some point when we start getting the dopamine rush of seeing someone this becomes more romantic in nature. This is the in love feeling. This is true whether you are married to someone or not. In fact to separate these is very dangerous becasue it minimizes what is going on. But moving forward, we can then make value judgements about why we love someone in a more rational way. Long term commitment and so on. This does matter of course. I am fine with calling this true love and the other a fog but to the person with the feelings it is the same. They are not thinking right.

Very often people fall in love and get married. One could call this an infatuation for sure. We could say this not true love until they have been happily married for number of years. But saying that people who are divorced after say ten years never were truly in love I say is disengenuous.

trying to determine true love from infatuation is very subjective. I get it. We can make that judgement from afar but I am not so sure how helpful it is. Maybe this can help people recover.

So in that light in my EA after I came out of withdrawal I saw it for what it was. So maybe this is the difference. You can withdraw and come out of the fog and work on the true love with your spouse. This is ok but realize that there is a reason that NC from an AP must be permanent. Ask yourself why that is?


----------



## LookingForTheSun

MattMatt said:


> In love is with someone you should be with.
> 
> In the fog is with someone you should not be with.


MattMatt - you scored a homerun with this one - hit the nail on the head, touchdown in the Super Bowl!


----------



## tacoma

I was unaware that there was a difference.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lon

no difference, both are AKA limerance. I love the weightless feeling of being in the fog, but the fog of a new appropriate relationship. I hated my ex W being in the fog from her affairs.


----------



## meson

Entropy3000 said:


> I say it is the same thing. Same brain chemicals.
> 
> Whether it is seen as infatuation or true love is very subjective.
> 
> The fact is that this is about brain chemicals oxytocin and dopamine.
> 
> I know a BS wants to look as this as being something else and that is all well and good but it is about feelings.
> 
> This is an addiction to a person. Folks are wired to bond and fall in love. Period.


Yes, it is all about the feelings and they are so very real to the wayward spouse. They are driven to act by emotions they don’t fully understand. This is the fog.





Entropy3000 said:


> So in that light in my EA after I came out of withdrawal I saw it for what it was. So maybe this is the difference. You can withdraw and come out of the fog and work on the true love with your spouse. This is ok but realize that there is a reason that NC from an AP must be permanent. Ask yourself why that is?


Coming out of the fog is going through withdrawal. If you never lost the love for your spouse coming out of withdrawal is enough because you can focus on feeding the connections with your spouse. However for those that had lost the love to their spouse coming out of the fog after the withdrawal leaves them empty and unsatisfied. This is why a lot of reconciliations fail. In this case going no contact is essential because the spouse can focus on rebuilding their love for their spouse which was lost somewhere.

However if the marriage relationship was strong to begin with it is enough to stop feeding the addiction once the fog has ended. The connections with the spouse take precedence again. Feeding the neural connections with your spouse if the important aspect (staying in love). This in itself will diminish the desire for escalating contact with others. In this case one does not need to go NC to make it work out. In the case of my EA the addiction and fog was not strong enough to warrant going NC. Actually, I saw the OW and her husband last night briefly and the old desire for closer emotional intimacy is gone. She is really just a friend now, the fog has lifted.


----------



## Lon

I personally don't believe coming out of the fog is just about withdrawl, sure when you come out of that there is an emptiness that surely is like chemical withdrawl, but if we are talking about affair fog, coming out of the fog means realizing the consequences of your behavior.

It is one thing to be hungover the morning after a good party, is a completely different problem when you wake up hungover, evicted, unemployed and without clean clothes and the only thing you want to do is drink some more to escape the misery of the wretch you've become.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

How do you distinguish?

You're "in love" when your motives and actions are selfless. You are thinking of your SO first.

You're "in the fog" when your motives and actions are selfish. You are thinking of YOURSELF first.


----------



## AFEH

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> How do you distinguish?
> 
> You're "in love" when your motives and actions are selfless. You are thinking of your SO first.
> 
> You're "in the fog" when your motives and actions are selfish. You are thinking of YOURSELF first.


I don’t see how anybody can be selfless. Our self is always with us 24x7. We take our self with us wherever we go.

Maybe you mean selfish with good, honourable intent as opposed to selfish with bad, dishonourable intent.


To be selfless means to sacrifice our “self” (our wants, needs and desires, our food of life) really big time, but we can never 100% sacrifice our self, it’s not possible. The more a person sacrifices their self for another the more bitter and resentful they’ll become over time.


----------



## AFEH

This is me said:


> MLC can happen in the 20s, 30s, 50s but mostly in the 40's.
> 
> I believe the fog of the MLC is responsible for a large portion of failed marriages. It basically makes the person unhappy with their life enough to cheat to feel better. Like eating fast food it usually makes them feel worse later then they want to feel better again, so they do it again. Its all reactive behavior.


MLC by its very definition happens in mid-life. It’s the half way stage (more or less) of a person’s life. It can be defined in part as the person becoming aware they have more time behind them than they have in front of them. It is perhaps the major transition a person goes through in their life. But there are others. It’s mid-life change that only becomes a crisis when the transition doesn’t go well.

A person in their 20s and 30s still has more time in front of them than behind them, so crisis in those decades do not qualify as a mid-life crisis.

There are different “seasons” of a person's life, phases they go through. The transitions from one season to the next either evolve in a good way, if say the person is on track with their dreams and aspirations, or the transitions become a crisis.


Mid-life change happens at mid-life, no other time. The transition from the first half of a person’s life to the second only becomes a crisis if there are seriously big changes to be made.

A person can have quite a few seasons (phases) in their life and these are what you refer to with the 20s and 30s, there are others. It’s the transitions from one season to the next which are key, some go much smoother than others.

As a person navigates these transitions from one season to the next they are working their way towards individuation, a journey without an end. A season can last from a few years to maybe a couple of decades and the transitions between them from a year or so to five years or more.


Sometimes we come to realise we cannot continue on our journey of individuation, changing from season to season, with our current partner because they hold us back, keep us as we were. These are quite dangerous, vulnerable times and our spouse may well look for another to continue their journey with.


----------



## AFEH

meson said:


> To understand the difference between “in love” and the “the fog” one needs to understand emotions and what love is to some extent. Love is the feeling or feelings produced in reaction to a chemical ****tail and connections in the brain created in response to external stimuli by association.
> 
> In short your brain responds to people & things by creating neural connections that are mediated by specific neurochemicals. Thus when you are reminded of or see that person your brain circuits fire the recognition and produce those feelings. Those feelings are emotions and are a result of the associations previously created. The emotion of love is closely tied with the reward systems of the brain which are also identified with addiction. Addictions produce a strong desire for more and serve to replace other neural connections to other people and things.
> 
> Much has been learned about the neurological basis for love in the past dozen years but it is still not fully understood. I have included a link to a review article below for those inclined to learn more. Even though emotions and the basis for them are not fully understood, they are understood well enough to create the generalizations above. These generalizations are enough to explain a significant amount of the emotions encountered in a daily reading of TAM.
> 
> Two different aspects of love have been mentioned in this thread, infatuation and long term (true) love. It has been shown that infatuation is linked to the euphoria, eroticism and excitement chemicals (see quote below) whereas long term love is associated with more nurturance, protectiveness, low stress. Two commonly distinct types of love can be understood as extremely different mixtures of the same chemicals. For each individual that you have love for will probably have a slightly different mixture of the chemical ****tail. For instance family may be high on nurturing and so on. The point is that all types of love from romantic to agape are manifestations of a different mixture of the ****tail. It’s basically the same chemical bath for everyone you love.
> 
> When you recognize this, it also explains that it is possible to be romantically in love with two people at the same time. It is not probable though because several of the neurochemicals including oxytocin actively break neural connections with others. Oxytocin is released via sex through orgasm and is responsible for the nurturing long term bonding components of love.
> 
> Now back to the question about the difference between “in love” and “the fog”. If you are married and you are still in love then you are probably at the long term true love spectrum of the chemical mixture. You probably (but not necessarily) went through an infatuation stage with your spouse. However since you may not have been attached to anyone else your new addiction to your pre-spouse may have gone unnoticed except by friends that saw less and less of you because you were then head over heels in love. Friends understand that is what happens often.
> 
> Now suppose you are married and in long term love but begin to have feelings for another. The addiction components of the ****tail propel you to escalate contact as much as possible. Soon you get the rush and excitement and you are infatuated when the other. The escalation of contact from the desire to be with the other leads to a reprioritization of what is important. These new priorities are at odds with the marriage and don’t make sense. Furthermore when the oxytocin kicks in and neural connections with the spouse are replaced with the other then links to those old feelings diminish and disappear. This is often noted as rewriting history of the relationship because the way you remember things has changed and is changing. This is the fog. It is noticed more because it is in stark contrast to an existing relationship. Now if you have lost the love for your spouse you will still go through the steps above but your connections to your spouse have already been lost through other means and it is still the fog.
> 
> 
> 
> A review paper on emotion can be found at
> 
> The brain basis of emotion: A meta-analytic review, BEHAVIORAL AND BRAIN SCIENCES (2012) 35, 121–202, Lindquist et. al.
> http://nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~lindqukr/docs/Lindquist_etal_BBS2012.pdf
> 
> A good excerpt that shows the chemicals involved is:
> 
> Similarly, love is arguably a primary affect at the ecological level, associated with intimate displays (contact comfort, pheromones). The subjective experiences associated with love may be associated with a neurochemical ****tail including high endorphins (euphoria), gonadotropinreleasing hormone (GnRH: eroticism), dopamine (DA: excitement), oxytocin (OXY: nurturance); vasopressin (AVP: protectiveness), CRH (stress); and low serotonin (5-HT: submission) (see Ortigue et al. 2010; Panksepp 1998). Understanding of these systems, their evolutionary and genetic bases, their complex interrelationships, and their communicative role in social interaction is proceeding apace. - Ross W. Buck, Prime elements of subjectively experienced feelings and desires: Imaging the emotional ****tail


Addicted to love!


Your post describes it exceptionally well. Breaking the addiction can be a journey all of it’s own full of very deep, mixed and conflicting emotions, massive withdrawal symptoms and many false starts.

I imagine it can at times be like trying to get off of heroin. The drug (of love) makes the person feel really good while at the same time they recognise the amount of harm it does.

Only when the pain overcomes the pleasure associated with the drug does the addict have enough motivation to break the habit the addiction has become.


----------



## Lon

I personally believe a MLC can happen for some in their 20's - it may not just be the transition between number of years ahead vs behind, rather the amount of life left ahead vs behind. To me each year seems to be going faster than the last exponentially, and so my perception is that I'm running out of years very quickly, plus I don't have a whole lot of longevity based on my family history, I think I started feeling the transition a year or so after my 30th. And it was going ok, but divorce sure has made it feel like more of a crisis.


----------



## Fightingtilltheend

Call it what you want....it comes down to Selfishness and not caring about consequences or anyone else...We all one time or another maybe entertained the the idea of being with someone else other than our spouse in our marriage.....but its what you do that makes the difference in the world. If we all did what we thought was right and what we think feels good without care then this world would be a very different place...granted alot of people do decide to do that...my wife is that example.


----------



## unbelievable

Take a look at your hot girlfriend. Now, imagine she's horribly disfigured, 400 lbs heavier, crazy as an out-house rat, unable to do a thing for herself and unable to ever do anything for you. Her condition will never improve. Would you still marry her, forsaking all others, yada, yada? If you would, that's love. I believe lust is an emotion that we either have or we don't. We can't really control that. "Love" is a deliberate choice. We think babies are cute but parents who adopt a child choose to love. I like dogs, but the ones I make my own, I choose to love. Because it's my choice, my love doesn't stop if my kids piss me off. It doesn't stop if my dog craps on the floor. It doesn't stop if some hottie at work tries to attract my attention.


----------



## Fightingtilltheend

unbelievable said:


> Take a look at your hot girlfriend. Now, imagine she's horribly disfigured, 400 lbs heavier, crazy as an out-house rat, unable to do a thing for herself and unable to ever do anything for you. Her condition will never improve. Would you still marry her, forsaking all others, yada, yada? If you would, that's love. I believe lust is an emotion that we either have or we don't. We can't really control that. "Love" is a deliberate choice. We think babies are cute but parents who adopt a child choose to love. I like dogs, but the ones I make my own, I choose to love. Because it's my choice, my love doesn't stop if my kids piss me off. It doesn't stop if my dog craps on the floor. It doesn't stop if some hottie at work tries to attract my attention.


Awesome point....Love is a choice....dont follow your heart...your heart can be deceived...you must lead your heart (from fireproof the movie)


----------



## AFEH

Fightingtilltheend said:


> Awesome point....Love is a choice....dont follow your heart...your heart can be deceived...you must lead your heart (from fireproof the movie)


The heart can overrule the head as well as the head overrule the heart. Either way it’s a sorry, conflicting, compromising and sacrificial type of relationship.


The very best relationships are when both the head and heart are saying yes. Personally I wouldn’t settle for anything less because as far as I’m concerned I’d be deceiving and betraying not just myself but my partner as well.


----------



## Fightingtilltheend

AFEH said:


> The heart can overrule the head as well as the head overrule the heart. Either way it’s a sorry, conflicting, compromising and sacrificial type of relationship.
> 
> 
> The very best relationships are when both the head and heart are saying yes. Personally I wouldn’t settle for anything less because as far as I’m concerned I’d be deceiving and betraying not just myself but my partner as well.


But I think the point being made here. Is this.....do not act on emotion...think before you act. Love is a conscious action and decision you must make daily. The whole head and heart I agree to some degree....but not really. Sometimes there are stuff that my heart and mind want to do...but I know its not for the better good. If you make a vow for better or for worse you stick by them (Except of course situations beyond your control). But ultimately...Love is a choice you have to make it.


----------



## Fightingtilltheend

Whether your heart and your mind fight with each other...at the end of the day you still have to make a decision. Feelings are just that feelings. Anyone married for a long time can tell you that you wont always have butterflies...you wont always want to be around your spouse...but its that daily choice you make that you will love them...through thick and thin...fat or thin....rich or poor....they hurt you or make you smile. Because chances are you will do the same to them and prayerfully they make the same decision.


----------



## AFEH

Fightingtilltheend said:


> Whether your heart and your mind fight with each other...at the end of the day you still have to make a decision. Feelings are just that feelings. Anyone married for a long time can tell you that you wont always have butterflies...you wont always want to be around your spouse...but its that daily choice you make that you will love them...through thick and thin...fat or thin....rich or poor....they hurt you or make you smile. Because chances are you will do the same to them and prayerfully they make the same decision.


I used to be like you. It lasted me well (I think) in my very long marriage, I was with my wife for over 40 years.

My marriage came to an end when I absolutely listened to the very strong messages my emotions were sending me instead of trying to understand them with logic and reasoning. But before I would listen they had to get my attention by bringing me to my knees.

There’s a whole host of intelligence in our emotions which most can’t even conceive of and many will deny. We just need to listen to them and understand what it is they’re trying to communicate to us. We are differentiated from robots by our emotions.

It’s our emotions, how we feel about things that make us human and you do yourself a disservice by discounting them in the way you do.


----------



## Fightingtilltheend

AFEH said:


> I used to be like you. It lasted me well (I think) in my very long marriage, I was with my wife for over 40 years.
> 
> My marriage came to an end when I absolutely listened to the very strong messages my emotions were sending me instead of trying to understand them with logic and reasoning. But before I would listen they had to get my attention by bringing me to my knees.
> 
> There’s a whole host of intelligence in our emotions which most can’t even conceive of and many will deny. We just need to listen to them and understand what it is they’re trying to communicate to us. We are differentiated from robots by our emotions.
> 
> It’s our emotions, how we feel about things that make us human and you do yourself a disservice by discounting them in the way you do.



The point that I am making is ultimately this....emotions should not always be the base of all our decisions. You are right about us being different from robots...but regardless there is still right and wrong and emotions come and go. Ultimately the decision on why some spouses leave their families just to be with some stranger they find attractive is an emotion that they believe is from their hearts and follow it...then days, months, years later they wake up and regret it. Never did I say that I am discounting emotions in any way...as sometimes happiness etc stems from it...we all have them. All im saying is sometimes emotions are misleading.


----------



## AFEH

Fightingtilltheend said:


> The point that I am making is ultimately this....emotions should not always be the base of all our decisions. You are right about us being different from robots...but regardless there is still right and wrong and emotions come and go. Ultimately the decision on why some spouses leave their families just to be with some stranger they find attractive is an emotion that they believe is from their hearts and follow it...then days, months, years later they wake up and regret it. Never did I say that I am discounting emotions in any way...as sometimes happiness etc stems from it...we all have them. All im saying is sometimes emotions are misleading.


There are times when the decisions we make with our logic and reasoning can be massively wrong and transient when all the time it was in our emotions where our truth and longevity lay.


----------



## Fightingtilltheend

AFEH said:


> There are times when the decisions we make with our logic and reasoning can be massively wrong and transient when all the time it was in our emotions where our truth and longevity lay.


Cheating on your spouse is wrong...emotions or logic!


----------



## Fightingtilltheend

Most cheating spouses...rely on emotions not logic.


----------



## sisters359

Being "in love" and "the fog" are one and the same--both are that stage of attraction and intimacy that has no basis in reality b/c there has not been enough time to learn enough about the other to know if they have a character worth your true love.

I'm pretty sure "the fog" is why they say, love is blind.

Remember: you fall in love with personality, but you have to live with someone's character. You only know if it is love if their character allows you to continue having that "in love" feeling, at least occasionally, after a few years together. Most of the time, discovering someone's character flaws will end that feeling and we move on--unless we've made the mistake of marrying before we discover that character. That's when things get really tricky.


----------



## AFEH

Fightingtilltheend said:


> Cheating on your spouse is wrong...emotions or logic!


I don’t do yes/no answers.


----------



## AFEH

Fightingtilltheend said:


> Most cheating spouses...rely on emotions not logic.


Discount the emotions, you'll discount the person and surely you will lose.

No matter what IQ you have.


----------



## AFEH

Fightingtilltheend said:


> The point that I am making is ultimately this....emotions should not always be the base of all our decisions. You are right about us being different from robots...but regardless there is still right and wrong and emotions come and go. Ultimately the decision on why some spouses leave their families just to be with some stranger they find attractive is an emotion that they believe is from their hearts and follow it...then days, months, years later they wake up and regret it. Never did I say that I am discounting emotions in any way...as sometimes happiness etc stems from it...we all have them. All im saying is sometimes emotions are misleading.


Can you compete with “He made me Feel good”?

Surely that’s more difficult to compete with than “He made me Think good”?

But maybe feeling just isn’t your thing. If you live with a Feeler then you sure better be a magnificent provider but still you wont win her heart.


----------



## Gaia

Actually... if you take a step back and look at it... a lot of cheating spouses use both logic and emotion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gaia

I wonder if the OP is even still reading this thread? If so.... OP.... what are you feeling about your situation now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## unbelievable

Operating from emotion is like being a leaf in the wind. Your position is always the result of external forces. If you're mad, it's because someone "made" you mad. If you don't feel loving, it must be your partner's fault. Don't feel excited about going to work, it must be because your job is boring or your boss is an ass. If love is a choice, then you are responsible for your actions. If you don't like where you are, you always have the power to change. A leaf has to wait for something else to move it.


----------



## Lyris

Loveis not a choice. Commitment is a choice. Loyalty is a choice. Perseverance is a choice. Acting in a loving way is a choice.

Love is an emotion.

All human beings make choices based on emotion. This has been shown by examining patients with head injuries or other forms of brain damage who are acting only from the logic centres of their brains. They are paralyzed. They can't make the simplest decisions because the countless choices we make every day very often don't have any logical difference. 
Study: Emotion rules the brain's decisions - USATODAY.com

That's an oldish study, but there have been others since. There was a good podcast, I think on This American Life about it.


----------



## unbelievable

Lyris,

I respectfully disagree. If love is not a choice, then how could Jesus command his disciples to love? How could anyone vow to love their wife if loving was not a conscious, deliberate choice? I believe Love is a verb. It's not something that either hits us or it doesn't. It's a deliberate course of action we take. I can choose to love my wife or I can choose not to. Don't believe it? A man is married and allegedly in love. Seemingly out of nowhere he happens to become interested and then involved with someone else. Next thing you know, the wife he would have described as perfectly fine 6 months ago, he now describes as a barrier to his happiness. She's the same person. Or, the guy who was a perfect father for the past 15 years, during a divorce, his wife accuses him of being a child abuser. He's the same guy. In both cases, their emotions changed because the players deliberately chose to think of their mates in a totally different way. They had to. People must justify to themselves everything they do. If you treat your partner poorly, you have to tell yourself you no longer "love" them and they are unworthy of your love. If you behave lovingly toward someone enough (a newly adopted baby, a new boyfriend), you must convince yourself that you actually do love them and that they are worthy of that love. Nobody wants to believe they are evil or stupid. In most of the world and throughout most of history, couples didn't get married because they fell in love but because their parents arranged the marriage or they married what was available in order to survive. Yet, most of them ended up really feeling love for each other. Behaving lovingly was the choice and feeling lovingly came later as the natural consequence of daily justifying to themselves their behavior.


----------



## AFEH

^ For me love is most definitely a feeling, that feeling of being in love. And then out of that feeling we enact our love with the things we do with and for our loved one.

I think the love you talk of is the dutiful and responsible love we have for our parents, children, aged Aunts and Uncles etc. For sure we have a duty of service and care for all the members of our family including our wife but we only ever feel romantic, passionate love and sexual desire for our wife. The love we have for our wife is a different type of love to all other loves.



I feel rather sorry for you that you’ve never actually felt “in love” with your wife. You will have missed out seriously big time on immense joy, happiness and pleasure but then again you’ve also avoided a lot of unhappiness, despair and pain.



When my wife caused me pain yet again and wouldn’t change her ways I then took the choice to withdraw my love from her. To put a stop to my loving actions, being concerned about her, helping her etc. I doubt though that the feeling of love I have for her will ever go away although now it is greatly diminished and I know I’ll never stop being in love with the woman I married.


----------



## unbelievable

Not sure who your post was directed at. I have felt and still occasionally feel "in love". I also feel sad, happy, pissed, confused, hot, cold, hungry, etc. I recognize them as emotions but I'm not a slave to them.


----------



## moxy

I think they are the same thing, however, when you're in a legitimate relationship (ie, not an affair), you can call it being "in love" because you have the infatuation and the reality that reinforces it, but when it's cheating that feeling is called "the fog" because it's just the infatuation minus the reality.


----------



## jaquen

I'd say that, for us, feeling "in love" is a constant. Ever since I realized I was completely in love with my wife I've never ceased to feel "in love" with her. No matter what's going on in our relationship, regardless of whether we're in calm seas, or rough patches, that feeling of being "in love" with her has never ceased in the 13 or so years since I first fell "in love" with her. We were best friends for six years before we go together, and this feeling of being "in love" with her feels absolutely nothing like I felt about her when we were the very best of friends. She feels the same.

Now if being "in love" is the cake, the "fog" is icing. For me this is more fleeting. It is marked by feelings of euphoria, intense joy, excitement, and an overall feeling of pure bliss. This was there when I was _falling_ in love with her, but actually it has never disappeared completely. That feeling will still come over me from time to time, and I sometimes find myself saying to my wife "I feel like I'm falling in love with you all over again". It's not a platitude, it's actually exactly how I physically/emotionally feel. This, for me, is not a constant feeling, but it is a regularly recurring one. 

My wife would tell you that she is often in a state of "fog". Her behavior suggests this. She often, more than me, displays the behavior she did when we were falling in love. She gets very giddy, and heady, and acts like a giggling school girl pretty much every week, throughout the week; it is not an ever present behavior, but it's there more than not. It's both beautiful, and frankly surprising. Sometimes it feels like she's in a perpetual, endless stage of falling in love with me. It is quite unusual, and very unlike most people I know.


----------



## Fightingtilltheend

I guess it goes back to this...Logic, emotion, Love, choices etc....We live in a world where the motto is "If it feels good do it" When you marry you make a Vow...for better or worse...not when you "feel" the love or not...as stated that so called feeling comes and goes. But making a choice to love and commit is just that..Love is a verb...its backed by action. "feelings" are everywhere as they are determined by other factors...as in when you choose to love nothing can change that. As for me...I like yes and no questions...because sometimes there is such a thing as a yes and no and a right and wrong.


----------



## Fightingtilltheend

Gaia said:


> I wonder if the OP is even still reading this thread? If so.... OP.... what are you feeling about your situation now?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hahahha probably not....but good discussions though.


----------



## Aggie

broder62 said:


> How do you distinguish being truly "in love" versus being in "the fog"???


I think "the fog" is infatuation. Infatuation isn't a bad thing, it generally leads to love. It's actually genetically programmed for us to be infatuated and lust before we love.

To be "in love" is when your infatuation and lust line up. Being in love turns off the parts of our brains that criticize and assess the risk of the other person. It's what causes us not to see the flaws in our lover.


----------



## S4E

sisters359 said:


> Being "in love" and "the fog" are one and the same--both are that stage of attraction and intimacy that has no basis in reality b/c there has not been enough time to learn enough about the other to know if they have a character worth your true love.
> 
> I'm pretty sure "the fog" is why they say, love is blind.
> 
> Remember: you fall in love with personality, but you have to live with someone's character. You only know if it is love if their character allows you to continue having that "in love" feeling, at least occasionally, after a few years together. Most of the time, discovering someone's character flaws will end that feeling and we move on--unless we've made the mistake of marrying before we discover that character. That's when things get really tricky.


Wow...very inciteful and intelligent (in my humble opinion). This hit home with me! I've been married over 30 yrs. and it may end soon? May not? My wife had a horrid affair with my so called "best friend" 12 years ago and the pain has always been lurking in the shadows coming out from time to time because of "triggers". One being that "he" shared my same name so hearing it in bed has ruined me...

I fell in love with my wifes beauty, her free spirit, her drive and ambition, and we married young. Although she had good aspects to her "character", I was always concerned by her ability to lie and to make things up. She could tell a story and make things so much bigger than they were that you could have been there and you'd be thinking - that's not what happened at all? She was also always insecure and jealous with no confidence in her abilities always putting herself down.

I believe her "character flaws" are what led her to her ongoing PA, and her ability to lie just made it easier for her. I really had no clue and was blindsided when I found them on a cruise together. I'm not sure why I stayed and through a series of events as well as therapy i now see things for how they really are. Even though I believe she hasn't and could never do this again, I believed that back then, so what do I really know? I think "character" is so important in a relationship! Thanks for this incite, it helps to validate what I'm going through and my desire for a seperation after all this time. I still see her same character flaws that I feel led up to her affair coming out from time to time and it makes me uncomfortable. I f i say anything, she says "I'm just having fun" and then she gets angry with me? Of course the next day it's always like nothing ever happened and we're great...and I'm thinking - Really? What about what just happened last night? I know she's a good person, and I believe she loves me, but sometimes its just not enough


----------



## KathyBatesel

broder62 said:


> How do you distinguish being truly "in love" versus being in "the fog"???


For me, there's still some fog after three years, but the way I distinguished was by doing a conscious evaluation of our compatibility on the five pillars from time to time, both by myself and asking his opinions on them.


----------



## hekati

MattMatt said:


> In love is with someone you should be with.
> 
> In the fog is with someone you should not be with.


LOL the answer is sorta "In love means in love, in fog means in fog". No it is not the answer.


----------



## hekati

Writer said:


> I would say that you could be in a "fog" when you are first in love. I know I was with my husband. I moved 6 hours away after 2 weeks to live with him and be with him. If I was thinking clearly, I wouldn't have done it.
> 
> With my AP, we would make plans to be together. We would talk about how he would live with us when we were in the Open Marriage. Then, in the EA, he replaced my husband in my fantasy world.
> 
> In truth, my AP would not move with me. He would not out my husband. He would not take me out of my husband's life. Yet, in the fog, I believed he would.
> 
> The fog is a deceitful thing. It is everything: happy, rainbows, and unicorns. You can't see in front of you. You are blinded to the one person's whose pain should matter: your BS.


But why did you think it was wrong to move on with another man? Why don't you want to try to create this fantasy world? Find what you need, find your dream job, your dream man, if you need a freaking unicorn, make a genetically modified goat to be a unicorn!


----------



## hekati

What if we need this fog from time to time? I see women that are in fog, they got more energy they look younger, they feel better. It is obviously something that their body needs more than just sex. I saw men in fog – the same. It would be good if we could create this fog from time to time in our relations with the same person. But fog is a great thing, we need it!


----------



## S4E

hekati said:


> What if we need this fog from time to time? I see women that are in fog, they got more energy they look younger, they feel better. It is obviously something that their body needs more than just sex. I saw men in fog – the same. It would be good if we could create this fog from time to time in our relations with the same person. But fog is a great thing, we need it!


Fog can be a great thing "with the same person", otherwise it can cause problems. Either way it's good to be aware that there is a difference..


----------



## dallasapple

Uhh..don't know if I'm a-typical but have been "in love" (off and on) with my husband for..31 years..a constant "low level of love"(like protective) to hate..I dont know what it is I think its "pheromones"..It could be "bonding"./I can imagine being without him..but a "chunk" of me is gone..then I say ,,"I dont need that chunk"..then my side aches..I'm "attached"..I love him.Sigh..I find no shame in that..


----------



## hekati

moxy said:


> I think they are the same thing, however, when you're in a legitimate relationship (ie, not an affair), you can call it being "in love" because you have the infatuation and the reality that reinforces it, but when it's cheating that feeling is called "the fog" because it's just the infatuation minus the reality.


Reality is what you are creating. If you are in love with a character from a movie than, yea, that is a fog…. but then there is no danger to your marriage. If you have chemistry with a guy then you can create a different reality with this guy same as you did with your husband. What you just said is - if you have no circumstance that oppose your love than it is “in love”, if you have something that is on your way you should convince yourself that it is a fog… like the fable about a fox that can’t reach a grape wine and said that anyway it is too green yet. Could be you are married and still you met a guy that is your true love. 
Yes, would be nice to fall in love over and over with the same person, this way nobody would be hurt.


----------



## anotherguy

Ever hear the term 'Limerence'?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anchorwatch

Limerence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## hekati

anotherguy said:


> Ever hear the term 'Limerence'?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


looks like a really great thing to experience


----------



## anotherguy

Is that a better term than 'fog'? May feel great, but it's sort of unhealthy too in some ways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hekati

anotherguy said:


> Is that a better term than 'fog'? May feel great, but it's sort of unhealthy too in some ways.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


and could be healthy in another... term "fog" is shorter less to type. and nobody knows so far how long it could be with a really good match and could it be repeatable.


----------



## anotherguy

Healthy how? It is obsessive and delusional.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anchorwatch

hekati said:


> and could be healthy in another... term "fog" is shorter less to type. and nobody knows so far how long it could be with a really good match and could it be repeatable.


hekati, you don't cease to amaze me. Hats off.


----------



## CantSitStill

Limerance, just looked at that...I had an EA and yes that kinda sounds about right..it was infatuation with someone that wasn't real. Was whatever my mind wanted him to be...I am so disgusted with myself. Yes it was very delusional. I didn't think about or care for his well being the way I do my husband. All I wanted was his compliments and for him to say things to make me feel good about myself...ugg it was so wrong but I have learned alot since then and I love my husband with all my heart and have no feeling at all for the ex om..I know I will never let myself get even close to that again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hekati

anchorwatch said:


> hekati, you don't cease to amaze me. Hats off.


If you’d look any artist, poet, musician, scientist it would be obsessed person, obsessed with his ideas, work, love… And … well if you’d cut the passion and obsession you’ll get an … ameba. 
No delusion… All this big world is a huge delusion. It all depends on our attitude, our efforts to create what we want, our perception… 
Ok, “wanted was his compliments and for him to say things to make me feel good about myself” Isn’t it what all is about – about feeling good? All the life is about feeling good. And how bad must be the person felt herself if she needed just compliments to feel good. What is so much delusional here?


----------



## anotherguy

Nah.. lets be honest. We can talk metaphysical hypotheticals about perception and creating our own realities - I think that misses the point inthe real world.

Limerence, 'fog'..whatever you choose to call it.. may have positive side effects - such as inspiration - but so does heroin. Inspiration, or feeling good - when taken in isolation - doesnt tell us much.

The entite holistic ecosystem of what is gong on with a persons thoughts feelings and actions needs to be considered. 

"...an involuntary potentially inspiring state of adoration and attachment to a limerent object involving intrusive and obsessive thoughts, feelings and behaviours from euphoria to despair, contingent on perceived emotional reciprocation..."

Hekati - have you ever been in that state of head over heels, cannot hardly eat, swooning love or infatuation or limerence? I would be surprised if 1/2 of us have? Is is more akin to psychosis than anything I would describe as healthy. It is also, I believe - why some fall into the wrong choice in marriage. It is NOT that they did anything wrong - nothing of the kind - but that once that particular phase of the relationship winds down.. and it will... what is left can be very different in some very important ways.

Just thinking out loud (in text).


----------



## tacoma

There's no difference.

The Fog is just extreme infatuation.


----------



## empty3

My god.. Limerance is way too familiar it's scary. 
Anyone who has been through "the fog" how long before you started seeing clearly again?
How did it affect your re-bonding with your spouse (if that's what happened)


----------



## soulpotato

I can only speak for myself. For me, the fog = infatuation without any grounds. It was a shallow, inconsistent feeling that wasn't based on the OW's character at all. It was more about me and getting adoration, approval, and attention, and whether or not that person fit into a familiar dysfunctional pattern. I realized recently that I never really understood or experienced true love until my GF. She's the one I began to learn about authentic love with (unfortunately for her). I would never have sacrificed myself for any OW, but I'd die to protect my GF. I wish I'd applied that feeling more abstractly before now and that I'd had the emotional maturity to confront the problems in our relationship constructively. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## empty3

I find this topic fascinating as whilst in "the fog" it feels so real and genuine, even for some time after. It's interesting to hear your experience of it soulpotato, but at the time of receiving all the adoration, approval and attention, was their any genuine feeling of "love"? Did it feel real at the time?


----------



## soulpotato

empty3 said:


> I find this topic fascinating as whilst in "the fog" it feels so real and genuine, even for some time after. It's interesting to hear your experience of it soulpotato, but at the time of receiving all the adoration, approval and attention, was their any genuine feeling of "love"? Did it feel real at the time?


I find it scary! Strangely enough, I would pop in and out of the fog. It was definitely inconsistent, and I compartmentalized and was often in a dissociative state on some level. (Two things that are pretty easy for me to do: compartmentalize and dissociate.) I did think at one time that I loved two of the people I had EAs with, but I was aware of a kind of emotional dissonance, too. Like being unwilling to do or risk certain things for them, being unwilling to make promises even when asked to do so, and actively disliking them as people even in the middle of the EAs. At no time did I ever intend to leave or indicate to anyone that I would leave my GF for her. I also sometimes told them how great my GF was and how no one would ever mean to me what she did (and still does). As crazy as it sounds, I still saw myself as committed to her, and knew I wasn't going anywhere with anyone else so long as she wanted to be with me. 

Being out of the fog completely now, I really don't understand what I was thinking. Even knowing how I function, I still don't know how I didn't GET it.


----------



## empty3

I suspect this is the case for a lot of people. The emotional dissonance is a protection against not "falling" for these women perhaps as you had no intention of leaving your GF for them. The excitement and chase and thrill of it all get out of hand and you're not thinking straight. One just goes with the moment and enjoys it for what it is (mainly the taken man in the scenario)

I would argue, that for a woman in an EA (or most women) they get attached much quicker and never really "hear" the AP and what they're saying, even if they're being honest. To the women it's, "why would he do all these things for me and risk everything he has if he doesnt love me? If I just keep trying hard enough, maybe he'll come around and choose me after all"

Does that sound familiar at all?

Did your GF find out about these EA's?


----------



## soulpotato

I definitely wasn't thinking straight, no. I got caught up in the excitement of feeling special and important, real or not. 

Yes, I think that the OWs entertained the thought that I would "come around" and become available. The last one found out just how untrue that was when my GF moved out. She thought that there was no longer any "impediment" to our relationship when in fact it was my wake-up call, heralding the end of my involvement with her.

My GF was aware of all 3 EAs because I would talk to her about anyone I was talking to. She's just not aware of all the details (and doesn't want them at this time as she still has only asked me a few questions and doesn't want me to bring up the subject unless asked).

At the time, she insisted that my boundaries with these people were inappropriate, but I'm ashamed to say that I was dismissive of her concerns. I have since educated myself (and continue to do so).


----------



## ubercoolpanda

I think the fog is basically infatuation. The "butterflies" etc..the feeling you get at the beginning of a relationship. And you THINK you're in love. 

REAL love is when the the infatuation stage has passed, you've seen all their flaws, bad habits etc and yet you still know they're the one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dad&Hubby

broder62 said:


> How do you distinguish being truly "in love" versus being in "the fog"???


I know I'm late to this party but my take is.

In love and "the fog" are the same internal feelings. BUT someone "in love" has the ability to do some external things such as:

1. Weigh consequences of actions
2. Account for other peoples' feelings
3. Understand actions have repercussions

Someone "in the fog" can't or won't do those things.


----------



## vahlaria

broder62 said:


> How do you distinguish being truly "in love" versus being in "the fog"???


What's "in the fog?"


----------



## empty3

The fog or the feeling of being in the fog can be addictive. It's an extreme high and is intense. At the time it feels incredibly real and no matter what anyone tells you at the time, you tell yourself "they don't know how it feels". Do you think it's the memory of the feeling of the "fog" that encourages repeat affairs?

The fog is probably same as initial stages of being "in love", although in my opinion, being in love should be sustainable. The fog is based on intermittent chase, thrill and fantasy so is ultimately unsustainable. Almost like a bubble. Once the circumstances of the A change and it's not so exciting anymore with the variables of what's contained in an affair, it's very easy for the fog bubble to burst.

Some AP (especially MM) describe the fog bubble bursting as the defining moment of clarity.

Maybe that's why for some people NC is hard to achieve as they are still in the fog? Is NC merely a matter of willpower or is it heavily associated with being in the fog and not wanting the fog to dissapear as it felt so good?


----------



## soulpotato

empty3 said:


> The fog or the feeling of being in the fog can be addictive. It's an extreme high and is intense. At the time it feels incredibly real and no matter what anyone tells you at the time, you tell yourself "they don't know how it feels". Do you think it's the memory of the feeling of the "fog" that encourages repeat affairs?


I definitely think it can be addiction-driven. As you say, for some it's the "chase, thrill, and fantasy", and for others it's seeing that ultra-positive reflection of yourself from someone (as talked about in "Not Just Friends" and such). 



> Maybe that's why for some people NC is hard to achieve as they are still in the fog? Is NC merely a matter of willpower or is it heavily associated with being in the fog and not wanting the fog to dissapear as it felt so good?


I think it's both. It's like kicking any addiction. It can be difficult and painful initially, but much better for you in the long run as not doing so is going to hurt the people important to you and also ruin your life eventually.


----------



## lifeistooshort

broder62 said:


> How do you distinguish being truly "in love" versus being in "the fog"???



Hmm, I think when you're in the fog you can't address the potential negatives, and all relationships have them. When you're in love you can still see things clearly, even if you don't make the best decisions. In the fog everything is roses and unicorns.


----------

