# Contemplating Divorce - Any Advice?



## chris3320 (Nov 29, 2015)

My wife and I have been married 7 years and together for 4 prior to that, we are both 32. Since the birth of my son 3 years ago my wife lost 99% of her libido. We used to have amazing sex on a regular basis, now I cant remember the last time it was above boring. She has admitted she doesn't remember the last time she was even horny. We have sex a couple times a week but she just forces herself to do it for the sake of our marriage. She claims it feels good and she will orgasm multiple times but she also says its completely overrated and really not as important to a marriage as people claim it is. She says that nothing turns her on anymore, no matter what I do. She said that she doesnt even have a desire to masturbate anymore and hasn't done that in years either. 

Also she is not overworked at all and household items are not the issues. We both work 40 hours a week, but I work four 10 hour days so on my extra day off I personally take care of all of the house cleaning, and then on the weekends I take care of yard maintenance. I cook dinner 3 days a week, and she cooks dinner 3 days a week and we go out for a meal 1 day week. I clearly do much more than her and she will admit it. I have asked is she feel overworked and she says no because I help out with so much she feels she actually has it easy. 

Or maybe I am the one with the issues, to feel really loved I want to feel desired sexually. She is unable to do that and it makes me feel completely unwanted. To the point where if I cant turn on my own wife, why are we together. I need to have a healthy intimate sex life to feel happy with our marriage. Her approach of bang me so your getting some isnt the same, there is zero emotion or intimacy. I feel like its a crappy f*** buddy or a sad one night stand rather than a real marriage with people that love each other. 

I am now to the point where I have been unhappy for so long I am ready to move on. She has proven over these years that she isnt willing to change, all she is willing to do is offer up the "pity sex" to keep us married. I will sit on the internet for hours researching the topic and anything I say goes in one ear and right out the other. Any suggestion I make she counters with an excuse or complaint. She will claim she is trying so hard to fix this and when I ask what she is actually doing she will get pissed off at me for trying to start another fight. Meaning, I am not certain she can say she has done anything to help us other that say bang me so you dont want to leave me. 

I am a horrible person for contemplating divorce for this? I need sex to be happy and she is giving me lots of sex. Its just meaningless with zero emotion or intimacy with no signs of changing.

Just looking for a place to vent and hopefully someone with a similar situation could give me some advice.


----------



## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Sounds like my wife, lol. It was the same thing after our son was born, sex dropped to once a week, to once every two weeks to once a month. And as with you, the sex became mechanical, there's very seldom any emotion from her. Every time I bring it up it always turns into an argument so I stopped bringing it up which I feel is one of the factors that's led to our problems now. It's a rough situation when you do love someone, have a family and for the most part still get along and have fun together but the intimacy is completely lacking. Have you gone for counseling at all? Maybe she needs to open up about her issues with someone other than you, someone she feels can help her and understand what she's saying. She can't or won't open up about it to you because she may feel it will turn into a fight.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Do less housework.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/men-who-do-housework-have-less-sex/#


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Is she on any anti-depressant or anti-anxiety medications? Is she using any form of hormonal birth control?


----------



## chris3320 (Nov 29, 2015)

She has gone to her lady parts doctor, I dont recall actual name right now haha. She has said to them I have no drive my marriage is failing what happened to me. They checked her out and told her nothing was wrong and I quote, "tell your husband to bring home flowers more often and things may improve". So according to a medical doctor she is 100% fine and I am the issue. 

She went to a therapist, by herself, this only caused more issues. This helped her understand what the issues were but because she is unwilling to actually work on them other than her pity sex is only caused more problems. She went once a week for maybe 3 months before saying it was a waste of time and she was getting nothing out of it. In all reality, she was getting lots out of it, she just refuased to try the "homework" that was given to her. The therapist would make suggestions and my wife would argue that it wouldn't work so she wouldn't try. 

She tried a second therapist who then loaded he up on anti-depressants after months of playing around with different brands and amount to take we both determined the meds were turning her into a zombie and making everything worse so we gave up on that. 

She is on birth control pills, and we have debated this being the issue as well, so she went off birth control completely for about 6 months and nothing changed other than the fact we started using condoms and we both started enjoying sex less.


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

She's not attracted to person you've become and the lifestyle you live (this isn't a fault of yours, instead it just is about the routine you two are in). Read MMSLP to get an idea of things you can do to improve yourself. There are several Corey Wayne videos that could also help. But to start, you need to date her and seduce her if you want the sex to be good.


----------



## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

chris3320 said:


> She has gone to her lady parts doctor, I dont recall actual name right now haha. She has said to them I have no drive my marriage is failing what happened to me. They checked her out and told her nothing was wrong and I quote, "tell your husband to bring home flowers more often and things may improve". So according to a medical doctor she is 100% fine and I am the issue.
> 
> She went to a therapist, by herself, this only caused more issues. This helped her understand what the issues were but because she is unwilling to actually work on them other than her pity sex is only caused more problems. She went once a week for maybe 3 months before saying it was a waste of time and she was getting nothing out of it. In all reality, she was getting lots out of it, she just refuased to try the "homework" that was given to her. The therapist would make suggestions and my wife would argue that it wouldn't work so she wouldn't try.
> 
> ...


Since I'm a big advocate of always wanting to try everything to work things out before calling it quits, it sounds like you have. If that's just the way she is and doesn't want to change, there really isn't anything you can do about it. If your expectations of sex are that much different then hers to the point that it's effecting your marriage this much, it may be time to separate. I don't think divorce yet, maybe the separation may help the situation, and if not it'll a least make the transition back into single life a little easier


----------



## chris3320 (Nov 29, 2015)

To top is all off, she has competently ruined everything about sex. 

-She no longer wants to receive oral, she claims it just is no longer enjoyable for her.
-I have to beg to receive oral myself, she doesnt enjoy it because she gets nothing out if it
-I cant touch her sexually because she has became extremely ticklish since my son was born, so my trying to touch her sexually just turns into a laughing festival. 
-She only wants to have sex in 2 positions, both of which do not require her to move at all and I constantly do all of the work. She has excuses for any other position... e.g. back hurts, to tired, ect.. 
-Anal is completly out of the question, we used to do this maybe once or twice a month and she claimed it was enjoyable. Now she says its just a pain the ass.. I can live it that but it was a nice option to have haha. 
-She wont kiss me unless I shave imminently prior to sex. I call this a BS excuse she claims my stubble hurts her face, it never did prior to our son being born. Even if I shaved 2 hours prior she will claim its to rough and I need to shave again or she wont kiss me. 

So I cant kiss her, I cant touch her, oral and anal is our of the question. And I have 2 PIV positions to choose from which have zero emotion or intimacy. And we are to be happily married forever??? 

She has pretty much become the most boring lay of all time. I makes suggestions to improve things and I just get excuses, complains, and arguing. 

I am glad I am getting sex and a decent amount of it, but it truly feels meaningless. I have had serious thoughts of cheating on her just to to be with someone who actually has a desire to want to have sex with me and its killing me inside to have these thoughts. I have told her about it and she has told me that if I get to that point we can talk about other options to keep us together. I ask like what and she has told me if I get to the point of leaving her she will let me have sex with other people if it keeps us together. This just pisses me off more, I don't want to have great sex with other people I want to have great sex with my wife!!!!


----------



## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Tell her you don't want to live like this anymore and you want out. These is nothing wrong with a person to need sexual intimacy with their spouse. It's a requirement for most. You are still young, don't throw away more of your time.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

In this scenario, I think you should separate and head toward divorce. That may or may not bring her back around, but if not, you will be on your way toward something different.


----------



## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

chris3320 said:


> I am glad I am getting sex and a decent amount of it, but it truly feels meaningless. I have had serious thoughts of cheating on her just to to be with someone who actually has a desire to want to have sex with me and its killing me inside to have these thoughts. *I have told her about it and she has told me that if I get to that point we can talk about other options to keep us together.* I ask like what and she has told me if I get to the point of leaving her she will let me have sex with other people if it keeps us together. This just pisses me off more, I don't want to have great sex with other people I want to have great sex with my wife!!!!


So tell her you're at that point and you need to talk about other options and that those options don't include you having an affair, even if she does consent to it. Tell her she has 3 months to get her head straight and figure things out or you're leaving, period.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*If you file for D, be sure that you file first!
Let's your attorney pretty much set the legal agenda!*


----------



## chris3320 (Nov 29, 2015)

Thinking of following though with divorce is the most painful thought ever, am I really going to destroy my family for the sake of better sex. But at the same time I feel I deserve to be happy and my wife us unwilling to fulfill that request in a manner than actually works for me. I feel I am worth more than a "I'm naked, lube up and do what you need to do so I can go to sleep"....

Part of me actually has though of entertaining the idea of an "approved" affair for the sake of our child. My son means the world to me and I would do anything for him.. I know its the worst decision for him to have daddy leave because he isnt happy in the bedroom..

I dont know whats more depressing, thinking about my life now, or thinking about destroying my family completely by leaving.


----------



## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

chris3320 said:


> She has gone to her lady parts doctor, I dont recall actual name right now haha. She has said to them I have no drive my marriage is failing what happened to me. They checked her out and told her nothing was wrong and I quote, "tell your husband to bring home flowers more often and things may improve". So according to a medical doctor she is 100% fine and I am the issue.
> 
> She went to a therapist, by herself, this only caused more issues. This helped her understand what the issues were but because she is unwilling to actually work on them other than her pity sex is only caused more problems. She went once a week for maybe 3 months before saying it was a waste of time and she was getting nothing out of it. In all reality, she was getting lots out of it, she just refuased to try the "homework" that was given to her. The therapist would make suggestions and my wife would argue that it wouldn't work so she wouldn't try.
> 
> ...


Same with my wife. She knows what to do and how to fix but doesn't. It's easier to quit then to try.


----------



## chris3320 (Nov 29, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> Same with my wife. She knows what to do and how to fix but doesn't. It's easier to quit then to try.


And thats what I dont understand, the answers have been given to her she knows exactly what to do but rather that try she will argue that she is positive it will not help so she is not going to bother trying. But she will argue all day long that she is trying her hardest and open to anything. And if I bring up the fact she doesn't try and is seemingly open to nothing new she just gets pissed off and argues more. 

The first time she told me she was open to anything I called her out and said she was a liar and she said no I will do anything. I said fine, I am going to make a list of things that I think will make us improve. The list had maybe 50 different items on it, from tame and harmless to wild and crazy. She attempted to do maybe 1 or 2o things on the list and anytime I ever brought it up she would start spouting off excuses on why right now is not a good time for whatever the suggestion was. It got to the point where rather than making a suggestion I would go straight to so tonight whats your excuses on why you dont want to wear lingerie, and she would go straight into why it was a bad time. I would be a sarcastic a-hole and it actually eliminated arguing. She knew I was pissed and she is destroying our marriage and not trying, but still she does nothing. 

WHY!!! How can you say you love someone and will do anything for them yet at the same time prove you not willing to do a single damn thing even to prevent a divorce!


----------



## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

An "approved" affair is not. It's just bait to see just how stupid you are.

Before you ever consider doing that, file for divorce and move out. 

And why isn't sex something worth leaving for? It's as important as food. If she kept you chained up starving to death of course you should leave. Sex even more so, because it's a banquet she could serve you which costs nothing. 

Suspect it has something to do with believing she has you trapped now that you two have a baby. She was probably acting before, and has always felt sex is immoral and repulsive. 

Many women like sex. Many women are ruled by odd puritanical ideas. 

Two of my wife's sister in laws believe, absolutely, sex is for procreation only. What is so weird to me is my wife's brothers are okay with that.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

chris3320 said:


> She claims it feels good and she will orgasm multiple times but she also says its completely overrated and really not as important to a marriage as people claim it is. She says that nothing turns her on anymore, no matter what I do. She said that she doesnt even have a desire to masturbate anymore and hasn't done that in years either.


Try this, have sex but under no circumstances should you allow her to orgasm. Only allow her to experience that by imagining it as she feels you enjoying yourself.

Perhaps you will find out that an orgasm actually is important to her when they are no longer readily available in abundance, or you will find out that you have been pushing her to orgasm in such a way that it prevents the two of you from having a strong emotional bond during sex.

Either way, you've got nothing to loose by trying that. Just explain to her that it is an experiment and try to enjoy being playful about it.

Best, 
Badsanta


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Chris:

Your wife's actions have been consistent. She is not that into sex with you.

How long will you continue to try to push a rope?

You know the answer. You just have to have the intestinal fortitude to follow through.


----------



## chris3320 (Nov 29, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Try this, have sex but under no circumstances should you allow her to orgasm. Only allow her to experience that by imagining it as she feels you enjoying yourself.


An orgasm isn't important to her any more, she tells me she gets enough out of sex alone and an orgasm is just a bonus.


----------



## chris3320 (Nov 29, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> She is not that into sex with you.


Its not just a me thing, she has only been with 2 partners her lifetime. She told me the BF she had before me cheated on her after a number of years because he was unhappy sexually. 

Sounds like a pattern that she is just going to be in for good...


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

chris3320 said:


> Its not just a me thing, she has only been with 2 partners her lifetime. She told me the BF she had before me cheated on her after a number of years because he was unhappy sexually.
> 
> Sounds like a pattern that she is just going to be in for good...


So at what point do you become sick and tired of being sick and tired?


----------



## chris3320 (Nov 29, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> So at what point do you become sick and tired of being sick and tired?


about a year ago :frown2:


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

chris3320 said:


> about a year ago :frown2:


If that were the case, you would already be divorced.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> In this scenario, I think you should separate and head toward divorce. That may or may not bring her back around, but if not, you will be on your way toward something different.


 @Faithful Wife seriously? You are on the "just divorce bandwagon" these days?

I do agree some time apart can likely help create a spark of desire that pushes them back together. Personal space is often overlooked in marital problems. 

Since you are divorced and I think you mentioned that you and your ex husband have managed to remain good friends with one another... would you say that your relationship with him has benefitted from divorcing in ways you did not anticipate... in that irreconcilable problems between the two of you before have now become "something different." 

Do the two of you still keep in touch?

Sorry if I am being too nosey... but this dynamic may be helpful for the OP.

Badsanta


----------



## chris3320 (Nov 29, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> If that were the case, you would already be divorced.


Like I said above, the thought of walking away from my son is what kills me the most. If he wasnt part of the picture I would of left after a couple months of this treatment, rather than stick around for years and question what the heck do I do..


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

badsanta said:


> @Faithful Wife seriously? You are on the "just divorce bandwagon" these days?
> 
> I do agree some time apart can likely help create a spark of desire that pushes them back together. Personal space is often overlooked in marital problems.
> 
> ...


Um well, no. It isn't a "bandwagon", it is specific advice to this poster. Sometimes the writing is on the wall, and in this case, the writing I read is that this man will struggle with this issue in his marriage forever with no changes, and probably end up divorced anyway. If he moves to separation and that doesn't make any changes in his wife, then he will know divorce is the best next step. She may be relieved anyway, she may be glad to not be expected to have sex anymore. Or she may realize he's serious, and that she loves him, and that she hasn't really been trying but now she will. Either way, he will have his answer sooner than later. Talking hasn't helped, counseling hasn't helped, actually leaving *might* help but if it doesn't, he will at least know where he stands.

The thread title is "contemplating divorce". It isn't like I just suggested it out of the blue to someone who is strongly opposed to divorce.

Divorce can be the best solution in some of these issues.

My divorce has no relevance on this particular situation and our post divorce relationship doesn't, either. Our sex life was never our problem.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

chris3320 said:


> Like I said above, the thought of walking away from my son is what kills me the most. If he wasnt part of the picture I would of left after a couple months of this treatment, rather than stick around for years and question what the heck do I do..


So it is your son's fault you are still in this marriage?

Please understand, I am empathetic as I myself am in a marriage with a desire mismatch.

Help me drill this down a bit. The picture you are painting shows you to be the victim of your wife. What I'm trying to get you to realize is it every day you choose to remain in the marriage while painting your wife as the problem is not correct, and a huge disservice to yourself. So, are you really a victim?

Time for a reading assignment.

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/


----------



## chris3320 (Nov 29, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Um well, no. It isn't a "bandwagon", it is specific advice to this poster. Sometimes the writing is on the wall, and in this case, the writing I read is that this man will struggle with this issue in his marriage forever with no changes, and probably end up divorced anyway. If he moves to separation and that doesn't make any changes in his wife, then he will know divorce is the best next step. She may be relieved anyway, she may be glad to not be expected to have sex anymore. Or she may realize he's serious, and that she loves him, and that she hasn't really been trying but now she will. Either way, he will have his answer sooner than later. Talking hasn't helped, counseling hasn't helped, actually leaving *might* help but if it doesn't, he will at least know where he stands.
> 
> My divorce has no relevance on this particular situation and our post divorce relationship doesn't, either. Our sex life was never our problem.


What exactly happens during a "separation" in my instance? I move out of my own home, get less attention from my wife now which drives me to essentially cheat on her, all while she sits at home and thinks about life? 

I guess I have never understood the point of a legal separation, I always thought it was just a way to cheat the system. Have the benefits of begin married without actually being tied down.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

chris3320 said:


> What exactly happens during a "separation" in my instance? I move out of my own home, get less attention from my wife now which drives me to essentially cheat on her, all while she sits at home and thinks about life?
> 
> I guess I have never understood the point of a legal separation, I always thought it was just a way to cheat the system. Have the benefits of begin married without actually being tied down.


Most divorces do not happen that fast, so there is almost always a separation first. Asking her for a separation that is going to most likely lead to divorce is what I meant.

Though sometimes a separation will happen, and the couple work on their issues while taking space, and then get back together.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

chris3320 said:


> What exactly happens during a "separation" in my instance? I move out of my own home, get less attention from my wife now which drives me to essentially cheat on her, all while she sits at home and thinks about life?


Drive you to cheat? Do you have this little control in all facets of life, or just this one?


----------



## chris3320 (Nov 29, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> So it is your son's fault you are still in this marriage?
> 
> Please understand, I am empathetic as I myself am in a marriage with a desire mismatch.
> 
> ...


I am not blaming my son for anything, I just want the best life possible for him and I am not sure a divorce is the best for him. Would it be the best for me? It very well could be but I am just thinking about him at this moment. 

I am not even trying to paint myself as a victim as I honestly feel as I am almost have done something to deserve what is happening. Only because things used to be so good and now they are not with zero explanation why. 

I understand that I could leave right now and the problem is solved, which means I am my own worst enemy. I can move on and find someone who is capable of giving me everything I need and more. I guess I have a hard time walking away, one because of my son and two because its such a simple problem to solve yet my wife is just so unwilling to honestly try..


----------



## chris3320 (Nov 29, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Drive you to cheat? Do you have this little control in all facets of life, or just this one?


Is it cheating if your separated in the first place? After being rejected for so many years, if the opportunity arose I would take it. Just being honest. I wouldn't go out searching for another woman per say, just saying under certain circumstances I would act on it. I have a huge emotional hole inside of me and that just feeling wanted and desired would fill it.


----------



## chris3320 (Nov 29, 2015)

I do want to thank everyone for the responses I have gotten so far. I dont have alot of people I can talk to about this is person. I have a very small number of married friends and an even smaller number with children so they have trouble understanding walking away from a family isnt just like flicking off a light switch and walking away like one of their failed Tinder relationships. 

I really am just looking to very and get some input from others. I feel really deceived, things were great prior to marriage, and even up to having a child. If I knew things would eventually head this direction I would of never said "I Do" but thats not how life turned out and here I am now lost as hell just trying to find most reasonable plan of action. Which might not happen to be the easiest as well.


----------



## KrisAmiss (May 1, 2017)

Chris,

I will gladly have sex with you. I love your enthusiasm. I don't understand your wife either.

I'm older. It's been a bad 15 year streak with very little action. 3 kids. Connection problems. Yada yada. As I've thought back on my sad situation (you can read my recent surprises in Virtual Affairs, BDSM fantasies - idk how to link) and throughout, I've been sad for me. I mean, I did the "right" thing by remaining faithful but I've lost many good sex years.

Yes, my kids thrive. But we put them first, us second (was it even second?). I admit I was trapped in some kind of emotional mommy state, obsessed with getting it right. I read a zillion child rearing books. Not one marriage book. Well, I started one about sex that my doctor recommended but things picked up briefly then fell away. Doc said he sounded like he had a "sexual dysfunction." I think she knew what she was talking about.

I stuck it out. Supposedly it's not sex he's not into, it's me and has been all along (past the first 6-11 years). Bummer. Taking a vow of chastity is something I never planned on.

Knowing your pain times a zillion, I'd say... you love your boy. You are a stand up man. Ideally your family will stay together. You have to do something - but what? Being a mom is tough. Is there more she needs from you there? In my case he ran circles around me doing doing doing and I didn't care. I wanted his emotional support but he just didn't seem to get why I was drained/freaked out/sad and it irritated him far more than he *felt* for me. Listening. Compassion. All that love/worry she's giving him has distracted her from you. Try to wake her up somehow. Sex therapist? Drugs? Sexy romantic books? Massage? A bath by herself before to give her some space?

On the other hand, if sex was an issues with old bfs... then yes, you might be stuck. That sucks. It's a strong drive to supress and I fear you will get more and more and more resentful. I wish that for me, I had been able to loosen my "grip" on my children and broken through the current of anger from my husband and found a way to reconnect. I never saw divorce as an option. I don't even know why now. Oh. Morals. Those kids. If I had given some of their attention to this problem (even when that seemed impossible), they'd have happier parents today. As it is, I'm considering divorce as an option. Better late than never? Or better never than late? Hmm...


----------



## UnluckyOne (May 2, 2017)

Chris what you're going through is very common. I think what you need to realize is that your'e not alone. I mean that in every aspect of your post. 

1. Not being satasfied sexually
2. Having a child youd like to be a part of
3. Not wanting to give up and ride the divorce wave everyone is so easy to jump on

Marriage is a commitment and a struggle. Heck ask me and I will tell you that you are living my life but I have even more to deal with on top of yours and then some. But, I have the same concerns as you. Once you walk away that child will be without a family. I mean a real family. Yes you will get to see him and yes he will call you dad but that everlasting fact of being a dad on weekends will never change. You fight the same battle as I do and many others on here. We fight to fight answers and we fight because a marriage is not as simple as okay it's not working lets call it quits. I can say that is true only if it's new and there are no kids involved. My first divorce I was 25 and after 2 years we knew and agreed we rushed and was a mistake. This hardly ever happens but it was a easy divorce no lawyers no nothing just a court, paper, sign, and done. But, once you add years to this story and once you bring another life to the marriage then it becomes more complicated. It also requires one to try harder and look for other ways to fix it.

I lost count how many people posted on my thread "divorce" sure it crosses my mind a lot. But, I just can't pull the trigger yet. I have 8 years into this a 3 year old son just like you to take care of. While divorce is the new beginning for me anyways it may not be the answer. I dont know about you but the thought of thinking about starting over makes me sick. In your situation think of it like this. You get a divorce and you find another female friend. You have sex and its the best in the world then what? Is she your gf now? Are you going to start over with her? Or will somehwere in your head you think I wish I was still with my wife?

So again you're not alone. Keep fighting the fight and keep looking for a cure. I honestly dont know what she may have to resent sex. My wife went from wanting sex a lot to wanting it every 4 months. So heck maybe they are related lol Anyways man keep fighting dont give up unti you are 100% Because I know one thing I am not there yet.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

chris3320 said:


> Thinking of following though with divorce is the most painful thought ever, am I really going to destroy my family for the sake of better sex. But at the same time I feel I deserve to be happy and my wife us unwilling to fulfill that request in a manner than actually works for me. I feel I am worth more than a "I'm naked, lube up and do what you need to do so I can go to sleep"....
> 
> Part of me actually has though of entertaining the idea of an "approved" affair for the sake of our child. My son means the world to me and I would do anything for him.. I know its the worst decision for him to have daddy leave because he isnt happy in the bedroom..
> 
> I dont know whats more depressing, thinking about my life now, or thinking about destroying my family completely by leaving.


 Adultery is a terrible idea, it always has terrible consequences. So is leaving her for this and damaging your small child. 
You made promises to her when you got married and so soon you want to break them. You are a father with responsibilities. 
Yes tell her how deeply you feel about this, but remember that things change, especially in the early years of child care. 

I would never ever leave my husband for this, especially if children were involved.


----------



## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

So you would rather just be miserable. What a great image for your son.

I have talked about my problems in my marriage. But we both worked on our problems. My wife never pulled stuff like your wife is doing. My wife never, not once, said no to anything I said we should try. Yes, it was up to me to find what worked, but she was always right there following right behind me, eager and willing.

You have been hoodwinked. Your wife is intentionally shunning you. You are letting her get away with it. Don't give her another week of satisfaction. Move out, and file for divorce.

You can raise your son just fine without having to live with an ice cube.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

chris3320 said:


> To top is all off, she has competently ruined everything about sex.
> 
> -She no longer wants to receive oral, she claims it just is no longer enjoyable for her.
> -I have to beg to receive oral myself, she doesnt enjoy it because she gets nothing out if it
> ...



Wow, ok. You do understand that she is struggling in this scenario similarly to you, right? And that she has not turned off her sex drive deliberately? Given the bolded, that she's even *willing* to entertain this idea seems to me that she's at her wit's end the same way as you are. There's a difference between withholding/providing bad sex deliberately and not being able to do anything about it/and also trying everything possible.

You said your child is 3, things do change after birth. They sometimes take time to revert back to 'normal'. Sometimes a few years, sometimes longer. Sometimes never, I won't lie to you. Is she on the pill? Get her off it and try for a year or so without, see if there's any difference (obviously don't get her pregnant etc). The monthly hormonal spikes could be important. Or not. The studies are conflicted on this.

I take issue with the tone of the post that it is all your wife's fault. It is nobody's fault and the problem affects *both of you*, not just you, however all you are thinking about is yourself in this scenario, dumping your family for a better lay essentially. I am quite horrified to read it tbh. But I may not be reading it correctly. Obviously if she doesn't care at all and not trying to work with you or is working against you, then it's a different situation. I didn't get the impression that this is the case but I might be wrong. 

You both decided to have a child and there are always risks after pregnancies. Those risks affect both of you and you have to try and solve them together.


----------



## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

She refused to do the exercises suggested by the first counselor. Those were not pharmacological, so they could not be a problem. Her refusal to do the exercises shows she is intentionally turning off her sex drive. She is intentionally shunning her husband.

If she actually cared, she would be trying. She would do what is being suggested by the professionals. Except the stupid drugs, of course. The exercises may or may not have helped, but my wife did them all! Damn it, if the professional help says do them, do them!

She has no damned excuse to not do the exercises. That is pure hatred of her husband.


----------



## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

When my wife's first psychologist gave her exercises my wife did every one of them, without fail. Sometimes Mary would cry while she did them, at first, but she did them. Because Mary wanted to succeed. With all her heart, Mary wanted to succeed.

This wife of the Original Poster does not want to change anything. She does not care. That is disgusting.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> She refused to do the exercises suggested by the first counselor. Those were not pharmacological, so they could not be a problem. Her refusal to do the exercises shows she is intentionally turning off her sex drive. She is intentionally shunning her husband.
> 
> If she actually cared, she would be trying. She would do what is being suggested by the professionals. Except the stupid drugs, of course. The exercises may or may not have helped, but my wife did them all! Damn it, if the professional help says do them, do them!
> 
> She has no damned excuse to not do the exercises. That is pure hatred of her husband.


That's the bit that made me feel that she does try:
"I am a horrible person for contemplating divorce for this? I need sex to be happy *and she is giving me lots of sex.*"

It's hard to give 'lots of sex' if you don't want it or can't want it nor is it an indication to me that she is deliberately not trying. What am I missing?

There was mention of a list of 50 sexual things to do (I don't know what they are but I am not sure I can think of more than 10 right now to be honest): I don't know if that's the best plan.

To me this sounds like demanding a paraplegic to run a 100 mile marathon after they have been in a car accident together. What is he trying to get her to prove to him with this list? It's not going to be satisfying for him because she's likely to hate every minute of it anyway. 

Why not stick with simple things first and try to progress from there. 3 years after pregnancy is still relatively early days.

Are the exercises from another thread that I am not aware of? There's no mention of exercises she's supposed to be doing on this thread.


----------



## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

This has shades of the laying there like a dead fish thread, though.

Which of course brings to mind the statement in another thread that all a woman has to do to please a man is show up, which is obviously not true. As evidenced by the dead fish thread.

In this thread, the dead fish concept is further advanced with the orgasmic dead fish motif. But he does further elucidate that his orgasmic dead fish expresses no interest. While having orgasms. An interesting twist on it all.

But she refuses to do the exercises.

As for my wife crying while doing her exercises, I do feel compelled to mention Mary did a lot of crying throughout that time frame. And she cried at every meeting with her counselor, as well, I am sure, as evidenced by her eyes after every meeting. So crying wasn't that big a deal. Emotions were running extremely high in those days.


----------



## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

chris3320 said:


> She has gone to her lady parts doctor, I dont recall actual name right now haha. She has said to them I have no drive my marriage is failing what happened to me. They checked her out and told her nothing was wrong and I quote, "tell your husband to bring home flowers more often and things may improve". So according to a medical doctor she is 100% fine and I am the issue.
> 
> *She went to a therapist, by herself, this only caused more issues. This helped her understand what the issues were but because she is unwilling to actually work on them other than her pity sex is only caused more problems. She went once a week for maybe 3 months before saying it was a waste of time and she was getting nothing out of it. In all reality, she was getting lots out of it, she just refuased to try the "homework" that was given to her. The therapist would make suggestions and my wife would argue that it wouldn't work so she wouldn't try.*
> 
> ...


Note the second post by the Original Poster of this thread.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Then the best thing might be divorce, I agree, if there is clear unwillingness to work together. 

It breaks my heart when there are children involved but if the priority is 50 things on the list then it's clear what the best course of action is for everyone.


----------



## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Yeah, sadly.

My wife and I went through hell. But she stepped every step with me, and I know it hurt her. She never let go of my hand. She sometimes accuses me of letting go of hers. I cannot argue. I was very angry. But Mary never let go.


----------



## chris3320 (Nov 29, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> There was mention of a list of 50 sexual things to do (I don't know what they are but I am not sure I can think of more than 10 right now to be honest): I don't know if that's the best plan.


This was not a make it or break it list. It was a list to just get her thinking about sex. One of the steps her therapist told her was that she needed to surround herself with more sexual stuff to get thinking about it more. 

The list was not do this or else, it was just ideas to think about. But when you say sure these look good and then do nothing but come up with excuses to not do them there is a problem.

It was as a simple as buying lingerie, buying a sexy outfit, reading a romance book, all the way up watching porn together.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

chris3320 said:


> I am not blaming my son for anything, I just want the best life possible for him and I am not sure a divorce is the best for him. Would it be the best for me? It very well could be but I am just thinking about him at this moment.
> 
> I am not even trying to paint myself as a victim as I honestly feel as I am almost have done something to deserve what is happening. Only because things used to be so good and now they are not with zero explanation why.
> 
> I understand that I could leave right now and the problem is solved, which means I am my own worst enemy. I can move on and find someone who is capable of giving me everything I need and more. I guess I have a hard time walking away, one because of my son and two because its such a simple problem to solve yet my wife is just so unwilling to honestly try..


How do you know that you would find this amazing woman who will fulfill your every sexual desire throughout another marriage? Things change, we all change, children bring changes, time brings changes, aging brings changes. 

I am so sad that you and others here so readily think of divorce when things aren't as you would like them. 
My husband has a very similar situation with his ex wife. She controlled if/when they had sex, what they did, and made him feel like a pervert for wanting sex more than once a week. He too said that sex was boring and that she often just did it to keep him happy. Not once did he think of ending the marriage because he had made a promise for better and for worse, and he had 2 sons. It was only when she met another man after 23 years(which didn't last)that she ended the marriage. If that hadn't happened they would still be married now I expect. 

Once you have children things are different, you have a responsibility to him to be a full time father, not to abandon him and his mum(because that is how he will see it) and be a weekend dad. 
Many men here would be overjoyed to have sex twice a week. 

It wouldn't enter my head to end my marriage for that. I love him far too much.
I know a lady whose husband never wants sex. They have been married for about 30 years. Its been hard for her, but she would never leave him because he is her husband and she loves him.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

chris3320 said:


> Like I said above, the thought of walking away from my son is what kills me the most. If he wasnt part of the picture I would of left after a couple months of this treatment, rather than stick around for years and question what the heck do I do..


Why do you have to walk away from your son? You can get shared custody. Honestly seeing my Dad after the divorce less time but more intensely and hyper focused when I was with him made us very close. The man is my best friend and has been basically since the point he moved out. I saw him on the weekends and one night a week. I talked to him on the phone probably daily. I have great memories of that. Yeah the divorce was hard but I survived. You don't die because you are not with his mother anymore. 

I really don't get this whole idea, I get that divorce and you should do everything in your power to make the marriage work, but that means both parties. Yes divorce is hard but if the marriage is over anyway then half the kids in the western world grow up under divorced conditions. Most grow up just fine as long as the parents do a good job, this is not the 50s anymore.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Why do you have to walk away from your son? You can get shared custody. Honestly seeing my Dad after the divorce less time but more intensely and hyper focused when I was with him made us very close. The man is my best friend and has been basically since the point he moved out. I saw him on the weekends and one night a week. I talked to him on the phone probably daily. I have great memories of that. Yeah the divorce was hard but I survived. You don't die because you are not with his mother anymore.
> 
> I really don't get this whole idea, I get that divorce and you should do everything in your power to make the marriage work, but that means both parties. Yes divorce is hard but if the marriage is over anyway then half the kids in the western world grow up under divorced conditions. Most grow up just fine as long as the parents do a good job, this is not the 50s anymore.


Many have long lasting issues and damage caused by a parent leaving them. Many will blame themselves despite what they are told.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I am so sad that you and others here so readily think of divorce when things aren't as you would like them.
> My husband has a very similar situation with his ex wife. She controlled if/when they had sex, what they did, and made him feel like a pervert for wanting sex more than once a week. He too said that sex was boring and that she often just did it to keep him happy. Not once did he think of ending the marriage because he had made a promise for better and for worse, and he had 2 sons. It was only when she met another man after 23 years(which didn't last)that she ended the marriage. If that hadn't happened they would still be married now I expect.


I think it is incredibly ironic that you don't see that the that the lack of sex was just a precursor to her eventually cheating on him. They never had a healthy marriage. If you don't have an active sex life in your marriage, your marriage is broken an you are dangerously exposed to have happen exactly what happened to your husband. 

You husband would have been so much better off if he had left the broken marriage way before wasting 23 years. 23 years he can never get back. If she had not cheated and if he had followed your advice he would have never met you. 

You husband's ex wife was a terribly selfish women that he wasted 23 years of his life on and somehow you see this as a good thing?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Many have long lasting issues and damage caused by a parent leaving them. Many will blame themselves despite what they are told.


He is not leaving them. He can be just as active in their lives. Again this is not 1950. And honestly 50% of all marriage in this country end in divorce. That means something like 50% of all kids come from divorce. I don't believe that 50% of those kids have severe emotional problems.

Plus a child of three is not even going to remember when they were married. It's not the same as like me when I was 7. 

This is a hell of a lot better solution then him getting a mistress. What does that teach his children?


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I think it is incredibly ironic that you don't see that the that the lack of sex was just a precursor to her eventually cheating on him. They never had a healthy marriage. If you don't have an active sex life in your marriage, your marriage is broken an you are dangerously exposed to have happen exactly what happened to your husband.
> 
> You husband would have been so much better off if he had left the broken marriage way before wasting 23 years. 23 years he can never get back. If she had not cheated and if he had followed your advice he would have never met you.
> 
> You husband's ex wife was a terribly selfish women that he wasted 23 years of his life on and somehow you see this as a good thing?


I see it as a very good thing that I have a husband with such integrity. Who kept his promises made on his wedding day and never abandoned his children by leaving just because things weren't as he would like. Their children were young adults by the time she ended it but it still affected them. Once you have children they come first always. I would never ever ever have left my children for any reason. 

They didn't have a lack of sex(not does the op), it was just when she allowed it and how she wanted it. 

He has no regrets at all, he isn't the sort of person to live with regret, and shortly after his marriage ended we met and married and are really happy. Of course I see it as a good thing that we met, but he would never ever have ended that marriage if she hadn't.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

sokillme said:


> He is not leaving them. He can be just as active in their lives. Again this is not 1950. And honestly 50% of all marriage in this country end in divorce. That means something like 50% of all kids come from divorce. I don't believe that 50% of those kids have severe emotional problems.
> 
> Plus a child of three is not even going to remember when they were married. It's not the same as like me when I was 7.
> 
> This is a hell of a lot better solution then him getting a mistress. What does that teach his children?


Getting a mistress is a terrible idea but its not an either or. Its not divorce and leaving his family or cheating, its staying in the marriage and being a responsible husband and dad. She isnt cheating. He isn't being abused. He is having regular sex that just isn't as exciting as he would like at this time. Some here who have no sex would love what he has I am sure. 
What decade it is is irrelevant, marriages ending and one parent leaving still damages children the same as it did then. I have seen this in many divorces among my family and friends, even if the absent parent still saw the children regularly. One parent is still walking out, and as the children will see it, abandoning them. 
A child of a friend of mine whose husband left after an affair, started wetting the bed again at age 4, and getting all sorts of symptoms of distress and unhappiness. He still saw his dad regularly. Another one was a girl of 15, she became deeply unhappy and upset for a long time. 

Where is this for better and for worse?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Getting a mistress is a terrible idea but its not an either or. Its not divorce and leaving his family or cheating, its staying in the marriage and being a responsible husband and dad. She isnt cheating. He isn't being abused. He is having regular sex that just isn't as exciting as he would like at this time. Some here who have no sex would love what he has I am sure.
> What decade it is is irrelevant, marriages ending and one parent leaving still damages children the same as it did then. I have seen this in many divorces among my family and friends, even if the absent parent still saw the children regularly. One parent is still walking out, and as the children will see it, abandoning them.
> A child of a friend of mine whose husband left after an affair, started wetting the bed again at age 4, and getting all sorts of symptoms of distress and unhappiness. He still saw his dad regularly. Another one was a girl of 15, she became deeply unhappy and upset for a long time.
> 
> Where is this for better and for worse?


I am not advocating divorce or not, I am just saying it doesn't mean he is abandoning his son if he does. He and his son can still have a great life but he needs to still be a father.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Why do you have to walk away from your son? You can get shared custody. Honestly seeing my Dad after the divorce less time but more intensely and hyper focused when I was with him made us very close. The man is my best friend and has been basically since the point he moved out. I saw him on the weekends and one night a week. I talked to him on the phone probably daily. I have great memories of that. Yeah the divorce was hard but I survived. You don't die because you are not with his mother anymore.


It seems a bit disingenuous when you don't include all the details you've posted several times before about how you suffered after your Dad cheated on your mom, divorced and abandoned her. Now, here, when it suits your divorce sales pitch, you're suddenly "best friends" with your cheater father {while everyone else here is a complete idiot to even consider reconciling with their former wayward spouses}. Despite the pitch, 50% custody is still less than 100% custody and no matter how much you polish a turd, it's still a turd. No kid prefers visitation over an intact and reasonably healthy home. 




sokillme said:


> I really don't get this whole idea, I get that divorce and you should do everything in your power to make the marriage work, but that means both parties. Yes divorce is hard but if the marriage is over anyway then half the kids in the western world grow up under divorced conditions. Most grow up just fine as long as the parents do a good job, this is not the 50s anymore.


Actually, it's unfortunate it's not the 1950's anymore. Sure there was more of a stigma about divorce and the children from divorced homes but that just meant they were surrounded by intact and more healthy homes versus today where the messed up kids are simply surrounded by even more messed up kids. Used to be grandparents, aunts, uncles, teachers, neighbors, and friends, could all come together and help out but, now, in the 21st century, everyone is overburdened with their own problems and issues that most just have to handle it best they can on their own. In other words, there was more societal support for children of divorced parents in the 1950's than there is today and the fact more than 50% of kids are from broken homes isn't a selling point. Your contention that "MOST" children from broken homes grow up "just fine", is erroneous. I'll offer this article to refute it discussing actual research:



Focus on the Family: How Could Divorce Affect My Kids? By: Amy Desai said:


> Many years ago, the myth began to circulate that if parents are unhappy, the kids are unhappy, too. So divorce could help both parent and child. "What's good for mom or dad is good for the children," it was assumed. But we now have an enormous amount of research on divorce and children, all pointing to the same stubborn truth: Kids suffer when moms and dads split up. (And divorce doesn't make mom and dad happier, either.)
> 
> The reasons behind the troubling statistics and the always-present emotional trauma are simple but profound. As licensed counselor and therapist Steven Earll writes:
> 
> ...


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chris3320 said:


> And thats what I dont understand, the answers have been given to her *she knows exactly what to do* but rather that try she will argue that she is positive it will not help so she is not going to bother trying. But she will argue all day long that she is trying her hardest and open to anything. And if I bring up the fact she doesn't try and is seemingly open to nothing new she just gets pissed off and argues more.


What is it that she has to do? 



chris3320 said:


> The first time she told me she was open to anything I called her out and said she was a liar and she said no I will do anything. I said fine, I am going to make a list of things that I think will make us improve. The list had maybe 50 different items on it, from tame and harmless to wild and crazy. She attempted to do maybe 1 or 2o things on the list and anytime I ever brought it up she would start spouting off excuses on why right now is not a good time for whatever the suggestion was. It got to the point where rather than making a suggestion I would go straight to so tonight whats your excuses on why you dont want to wear lingerie, and she would go straight into why it was a bad time. I would be a sarcastic a-hole and it actually eliminated arguing. She knew I was pissed and she is destroying our marriage and not trying, but still she does nothing.


Could you give us some ideas of what was on that list of yours?

How many hours a week do you and your wife spend in quality time, just the two of you by yourselves? Quality time is doing things like dating, going for walks, talking about your feelings, snuggling, etc?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> It seems a bit disingenuous when you don't include all the details you've posted several times before about how you suffered after your Dad cheated on your mom, divorced and abandoned her. Now, here, when it suits your divorce sales pitch, you're suddenly "best friends" with your cheater father {while everyone else here is a complete idiot to even consider reconciling with their former wayward spouses}. Despite the pitch, 50% custody is still less than 100% custody and no matter how much you polish a turd, it's still a turd. No kid prefers visitation over an intact and reasonably healthy home.


Your feeling about my father an my relationship are completely and entirely made up in your crazy mind. I have said many times that my father and I are close and that in a lot of ways we got closer after the divorce. I have also said I would never want to be married to him. He was a good father to me and an terrible husband to my mother. You were always the one who said there was some issue there between me and him, sorry dude nope, this is a myth made up in your mind, like the other one about me and my wife, again nope. 

Maybe it's because it doesn't fit your narrative. Which is basically your old stand by when you are losing and argument. You just callously lash out and make up stuff to insult people. I also said repeatedly it was better then that they did get divorced as they are very different people and would have never worked. The problem was my father's cheating. This is my point you don't have to abandon you kid if you get a divorce, and you shouldn't cheat or open your marriage because it add an extra level of misery. 

If you remember my issue was much more with my step father. I also said that my Mother's pain from my fathers cheating left me very much dealing with the aftermath of that and alone a lot. It would have been hard but much better if they had just parted. Assuming there was never going to be a way for them to stay together, again this entirely hypothetical as he cheated and blew everything up, but that is not the situation here at least yet. 

If he had just divorced her I think she would have been sad but not humiliated and broken. His cheating left her with no confidence and contributed to her marrying an abusive man. Which is once again why I am saying it's much better to divorce then to cheat or have an open marriage. Sometimes the lesser of two evils is necessary. In this case if the wife is saying open the marriage then he is better off divorcing. What do you think is better for a kid? See his parents have an open marriage or seeing them possibly both have good marriages to someone else? 

My parents still co-parented me very well. They now sit together at family gatherings because we kids all got tired of going from one house to the other. So my Dad his wife and my Mom sit together and talk. My Dad say all the time what a good job she did as my mother. My Mom says all the time that he was a good Dad to me after the cheating part. Life has gone on, we all survived. And if this guy is going to divorce it doesn't mean he is abandoning his kids or they are going to end up in jail, like you are saying. A lot of that has to do with how they break up and how they deal with the kid. Honestly I hope they don't break up but not if they are going to have an open marriage or he is going to go elsewhere while being married. That is MUCH WORSE. 

Besides all that something is wrong with you. I am not joking. You basically only post to make comments on me personally and my posts. Besides that you don't post much at all, unless someone comments on how right their decision was to brake it off with their cheating partner, how they should have left sooner. Then you post to insult them, lie about them in an insulting manor or call them a fraud. You basically just a bully. Honest to God I hope you only argue this way on the internet. Heaven forbid you bully and insult people like this in your personal life. You rarely post on threads were the people are looking for advice that has to do with cheating, and only then to rebuke people who encourage the poster to leave their abuser. You never post just to give people advice or encouragement when it has nothing to do with cheating. Nope all your posting is entirely driven by your anti divorce dogma, or me. I think it is really it's you who is the fraud.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

chris3320 said:


> Am I a horrible person for contemplating divorce for this?


Yes. You and your wife just had a child 3 years ago and 3 years is not nearly long enough for a husband to actually determine that an issue in his marriage is permanent. 

Divorcing (or contemplating divorcing) a woman because she won't continue to have enthusiastic oral and anal sex with you is extremely shallow.

There's no biblical justification for it; and, frankly, I have to wonder if there is someone specifically you are already auditioning for the position of affair partner.

I will remind you, you are a man. You are in charge of your own thoughts and actions and you made vows to your wife and God to forsake all others. No matter what she does {she could completely deny having ANY sex with you whatsoever} she can not MAKE YOU cheat on her. That would be your choice completely.




chris3320 said:


> I need sex to be happy and she is giving me lots of sex. Its just meaningless with zero emotion or intimacy with no signs of changing.


She's giving you sex, just not the way you like it. 

What makes her happy? Are you meeting her needs the way she likes it? Cleaning the house and taking care of everything probably isn't all that high up on her list of emotional needs and her list has probably changed dramatically since having a child. I'm guessing she's not to "happy" about being hounded for super enthusiastic oral and anal sex 3 or more times a week and being asked constantly "so when you going to fix that horny problem". I'm sure she isn't feeling very cherished by you lately {especially considering the degrading way you describe your sexual demands of her}. 

You're probably trying to take shortcuts to getting your needs met while completely missing the fact that your wife is currently and PROBABLY temporarily no longer feeling much like a sexual being and her priorities have changed as a new mother. Your sexual pressure has probably exacerbated the problem.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

chris3320 said:


> \
> The first time she told me she was open to anything I called her out and said she was a liar and she said no I will do anything. I said fine, I am going to make a list of things that I think will make us improve. The list had maybe 50 different items on it, from tame and harmless to wild and crazy. She attempted to do maybe 1 or 2o things on the list and anytime I ever brought it up she would start spouting off excuses on why right now is not a good time for whatever the suggestion was. It got to the point where rather than making a suggestion I would go straight to so tonight whats your excuses on why you dont want to wear lingerie, and she would go straight into why it was a bad time. I would be a sarcastic a-hole and it actually eliminated arguing. She knew I was pissed and she is destroying our marriage and not trying, but still she does nothing.


How completely disrespectful and self-sabotaging.

"I called her out and said she was a liar" and "so what's your excuse tonight" are two examples of love tank busters that aren't exactly making your situation better. 




chris3320 said:


> WHY!!! How can you say you love someone and will do anything for them yet at the same time prove you not willing to do a single damn thing even to prevent a divorce!



I don't understand how a grown man and father that says he loves his wife can think this strategy will work ~ enthusiastic sex under the threat of divorce while writing out lists with 50 "suggestions" for his sexual fulfillment.

I'm shocked she's still having sex with you at all. I actually think it's a bad idea for you to continue engaging in unfulfilling sex because you are creating an aversion. It might already be too late and take a long time to reverse said "aversion" that YOU created. 

I think YOU are destroying your marriage.


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

It sounds like appeasement sex at best, so you'll go away and be quiet until you need it again. I don't know about you, OP, but I'd personally be on fire to get my son out of that toxic and fake life. He is learning everything about marriage and intimacy from you both. No amount of talking can hide the truth. It'll only get worse and sex less frequent.

Her refusal to do any therapy homework is a giant middle finger to you. Just let her have what she wants... The pleasure of your non interference and pestering. You say that people in the tinder lifestyle have no idea about the pain and difficulty of ending long term relationships. That may be true, but you have hundreds of posters here who did it, understand it very well, and are fine, whether enjoying singlehood or married again. 

Divorce before you cheat on her. You can keep your values and dignity intact on the way out. No reason to bring out the emotional nukes. Your son needs a father who is conscious of his needs and obtains them cerebrally and with integrity. That's just about one of the greatest and most meaningful lessons you could teach him.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Satya said:


> It sounds like appeasement sex at best, so you'll go away and be quiet until you need it again. I don't know about you, OP, but I'd personally be on fire to get my son out of that toxic and fake life. He is learning everything about marriage and intimacy from you both. No amount of talking can hide the truth. It'll only get worse and sex less frequent.
> 
> Her refusal to do any therapy homework is a giant middle finger to you. Just let her have what she wants... The pleasure of your non interference and pestering. You say that people in the tinder lifestyle have no idea about the pain and difficulty of ending long term relationships. That may be true, but you have hundreds of posters here who did it, understand it very well, and are fine, whether enjoying singlehood or married again.
> 
> Divorce before you cheat on her. You can keep your values and dignity intact on the way out. No reason to bring out the emotional nukes. Your son needs a father who is conscious of his needs and obtains them cerebrally and with integrity. That's just about one of the greatest and most meaningful lessons you could teach him.


The child is with both his parents who love him very much. Its not a toxic environment in any way. Or do you think it would be better if he took the child away from his mother to move in with him and his next partner? And what happens if that wife/lover too doesn't live up to his 'sexual expectations' at some point? Leave her and any children they have as well? Move on to another lady?

Honestly I despair, where is the integrity and sense of responsibility here? Putting the child before himself? Actually keeping the promises that he made to his wife a very short time ago? For better and for worse? 

My advise to the op, be thankful for what you do have(which is a lot) and stop being discontent and complaining about what you don't.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I am not advocating divorce or not, I am just saying it doesn't mean he is abandoning his son if he does. He and his son can still have a great life but he needs to still be a father.


Most absent fathers only see their children at weekends, some every other weekend. Many who leave gradually loose contact with their children no matter how good their intentions are, especially if they have a new wife or partner and more children. If he moves out, he IS abandoning his wife and child. Talk to the many whose fathers left when they were young, that's how they saw it and how they felt.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> ...probably end up divorced anyway. If he moves to separation and that doesn't make any changes in his wife, then he will know divorce is the best next step. She may be relieved anyway, she may be glad to not be expected to have sex anymore. Or she may realize he's serious, and that she loves him, and that she hasn't really been trying but now she will.


While you are probably right, if it improves things that likely takes the idea of "starfish duty sex" and cranks it up a few notches to "OMG please don't leave me sex" or "we should be together one last time sex."

From reading I do know that confronting a fear of abandonment and then using sex to reaffirm the relationship can make some people experience mind blowing intimacy. But then the thrill quickly fades until a new way to confront one's fears of abandonment is found. It then becomes a game of sexual/emotional peek-a-boo. Some people find healthy ways to make this work, while others can not tolerate a relationship with the notion of such instability.


----------



## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Are we sure this isn't the pornography sex expectation I alluded to in the dead fish thread? 

While posters there described sex which certainly justifies the dead fish description, perhaps the wife in this post did not fall to that level. At least, perhaps not until after it was made abundantly clear her response, including somehow managing to achieve orgasm, still wasn't good enough. 

I do think she should have done all the exercises suggested by the counselor. But I have to wonder.

Perhaps this is a case of inflated expectations based on some unrealistic comparison. I keep thinking, hey, he claims she had orgasms. 

That was really all I ever asked of my wife. Watching my wife come was the best aphrodisiac ever. And it was not like in the stupid porn movies. 

After all, we were married about 20 years before Mary ever admitted orgasms were actually kind of sort of a goal most nights. Some women are going to always leave it to the man. 

It's just something that's been bugging me about this. 

Good luck.


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> The child is with both his parents who love him very much. Its not a toxic environment in any way. Or do you think it would be better if he took the child away from his mother to move in with him and his next partner? And what happens if that wife/lover too doesn't live up to his 'sexual expectations' at some point? Leave her and any children they have as well? Move on to another lady?
> 
> Honestly I despair, where is the integrity and sense of responsibility here? Putting the child before himself? Actually keeping the promises that he made to his wife a very short time ago? For better and for worse?
> 
> My advise to the op, be thankful for what you do have(which is a lot) and stop being discontent and complaining about what you don't.


The toxic environment I was referring to, @Diana7, was the one in which he and his wife are together. They can live and parent apart and it be much less toxic for all involved.
I did not say at all that he should take the child away from his mother.


----------



## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

chris3320 said:


> And thats what I dont understand, the answers have been given to her she knows exactly what to do but rather that try she will argue that she is positive it will not help so she is not going to bother trying. But she will argue all day long that she is trying her hardest and open to anything. And if I bring up the fact she doesn't try and is seemingly open to nothing new she just gets pissed off and argues more.
> 
> The first time she told me she was open to anything I called her out and said she was a liar and she said no I will do anything. I said fine, I am going to make a list of things that I think will make us improve. The list had maybe 50 different items on it, from tame and harmless to wild and crazy. She attempted to do maybe 1 or 2o things on the list and anytime I ever brought it up she would start spouting off excuses on why right now is not a good time for whatever the suggestion was. It got to the point where rather than making a suggestion I would go straight to so tonight whats your excuses on why you dont want to wear lingerie, and she would go straight into why it was a bad time. I would be a sarcastic a-hole and it actually eliminated arguing. She knew I was pissed and she is destroying our marriage and not trying, but still she does nothing.
> 
> WHY!!! How can you say you love someone and will do anything for them yet at the same time prove you not willing to do a single damn thing even to prevent a divorce!


Oh I've definitely gone through the same thing. She'll say she'll do anything and work through any problem, but she won't. I've called her out on it time after time. The only thing that I'm left to conclude is that she just doesn't give a damned. Our marriage is not worth her while to save. I've done everything on my end I can do, but if you don't have two willing participants to save a marriage, it won't happen.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> Are we sure this isn't the pornography sex expectation I alluded to in the dead fish thread?
> 
> While posters there described sex which certainly justifies the dead fish description, perhaps the wife in this post did not fall to that level. At least, perhaps not until after it was made abundantly clear her response, including somehow managing to achieve orgasm, still wasn't good enough.
> 
> ...


Wow thank you, those were my exact thoughts as well. Many who watch porn expect their sex lives to be the same as they see in the porn, which leads to discontentment, forgetting that these are actors and actresses and its not reality. 
I am so glad to have a husband who doesn't watch porn.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

chris3320 said:


> This was not a make it or break it list. It was a list to just get her thinking about sex. One of the steps her therapist told her was that she needed to surround herself with more sexual stuff to get thinking about it more.
> 
> The list was not do this or else, it was just ideas to think about. But when you say sure these look good and then do nothing but come up with excuses to not do them there is a problem.
> 
> It was as a simple as buying lingerie, buying a sexy outfit, reading a romance book, all the way up watching porn together.


Ok. Let me try again. 
Your writing and tone basically had self-entitlement written all over it, over an issue that is not just her problem, it is a problem for both of you and your marriage. It is possible I am misreading it. If I am, take it for what it's worth or ignore it.

Even if her drive was completely normal, having the man running around waiving a list with 50 sexual things and calling her a lier if she finds excuses not to do them comes across as very childish and immature. I appreciate it is maybe due to many years of frustration etc but you never approach that kind of problem from this angle - it won't get you anywhere, only divorce but perhaps this is something you are already set on anyway.

If you want to approach this like a mature adult, you need find a more efficient way to explain to her what it means and feels like for you, not being able to feel intimacy with her. Chuck the list. The therapist who gave it to you is insane. You need to give something first before you can observe her making a move, in terms of compromise. Tell her that you completely understand how incredibly frustrating it is for her not to be able to feel the things she used to feel and you both used to feel with each other. Tell her you miss the intimacy and the connection that you don't need her to prove anything to you (*never ever* use her orgasms as some kind of proof that she desires you. @badsanta made a great suggestion btw. Your wife needs a husband, a lover and a father, not another child.) That you are happy as long as you can experience intimacy together at regular intervals and you know it's hard for her (keep saying this). That you don't want the marriage to fall apart because of this issue and that you know that it is as frustrating for her, as it is for you. Drop the expectations and self-entitlement: a woman's sex drive works differently from a man's (usually): it's not all on her. You need to appear to be gentle in form and approach but also keep your eyes firmly on the target of what you want to achieve with her. Never shout that you need her to serve you the 'final target' on a silver platter with a smile. She is not going to give it to you and you are making it only harder for her and for yourself.

Ok, having said all this: you need to observe very carefully her next steps. If you feel she is doing everything to go against you then it is very possible that she is not interested in the marriage, in which case my second post's suggestion applies: you will be doing both of you a favour asking for a divorce. But avoid blame games at all costs: you child will suffer from this.

PS: There will be many pitfalls along the way: make sure you don't punish her if she slips up. Start again from the top. Don't give up easily.
PPS: When you are in bed with her: apply the same attitude: don't pressure her into anything, don't expect anything, push things slowly but firmly in the direction that you like her to go with you, sexually.


----------



## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

The list did not come from a therapist.

We weren't made privy to the exercises the therapist assigned. It is also possible he was not actually told what those exercises were. After all, therapy is a very private thing.

The list is a home grown thing, and really should be discounted and ignored. The list is just a hammer. 



chris3320 said:


> And thats what I dont understand, the answers have been given to her she knows exactly what to do but rather that try she will argue that she is positive it will not help so she is not going to bother trying. But she will argue all day long that she is trying her hardest and open to anything. And if I bring up the fact she doesn't try and is seemingly open to nothing new she just gets pissed off and argues more.
> 
> *The first time she told me she was open to anything I called her out and said she was a liar and she said no I will do anything. I said fine, I am going to make a list of things that I think will make us improve. The list had maybe 50 different items on it,* from tame and harmless to wild and crazy. She attempted to do maybe 1 or 2o things on the list and anytime I ever brought it up she would start spouting off excuses on why right now is not a good time for whatever the suggestion was. It got to the point where rather than making a suggestion I would go straight to so tonight whats your excuses on why you dont want to wear lingerie, and she would go straight into why it was a bad time. I would be a sarcastic a-hole and it actually eliminated arguing. She knew I was pissed and she is destroying our marriage and not trying, but still she does nothing.
> 
> WHY!!! How can you say you love someone and will do anything for them yet at the same time prove you not willing to do a single damn thing even to prevent a divorce!


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

I am generally in the camp of 'things never get better, only decline' and also an advocate of speaking up to the point of being an ******* in these cases, after a couple years of being supportive and understanding of course. 

I do think she can get better over time, I've seen it, at least the frequency is there in the meantime. Nothing is sure though.


----------



## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

OP: 

She's not attracted to you. 

To cut short the analysis of nearly all LD/HD issues where only the HD partner is available for discussion, you only unfortunately have the standard options: 
-Leave.
-Stay and be unhappy.
-Stay and be unhappy and cheat on her to get your sexual needs met outside the marriage.
-Ask her to open the relationship so you can get your sexual needs met elsewhere with her permission.
-Or, run a self-improvement plan to make yourself a more attractive man ("run the MAP") and see if you can increase her attraction to you and see if that improves things. This may or may not work.

There's lots of advice on TAM and elsewhere on how to do this and what this entails. It's on fundamentally about being an interesting attractive confident person. It's not about being her doormat or butler and making her life easier. 

Fundamentally you can only change yourself and your interactions with her, you can't force her to change. 

I highly encourage you to run a self-improvement plan and be the most attractive person you can be, to see if she responds before taking steps towards leaving her. Don't stay and continue to be unhappy and be in a relationship with a woman who is not interested in you. Be aware though that fundamentally you can only change yourself and change your interactions with her, you can't change her.


Read Athol Kay. If you've gotten lazy and overweight and complacent then focus on getting in shape, dressing better, and being more confident and assertive dealing with her outside the bedroom. 

Start with taking leadership on meals and activities. Tell her on Thursday that you've made diner reservations for Friday at that new restaurant you heard about. When she pushes back and on Friday starts complaining that her stomach isn't right, etc, and pushing back and saying she doesn't feel like going out, go without her (you don't have to go out to nice place by yourself, maybe just go see a movie by yourself or whatever) and leave her at home. 

Start back up doing the the martial art classes or the bike rides or whatever activities you used to do before you met her and early on when you were dating that you stopped doing over the course of the marriage. Invite her to join you and go without her when she says no. 

Be a leader and be confident. Do interesting things and go to interesting places and Insist that you are going to have a fun and interesting life and she's welcome to join you if she wants. 

Lift weights, cut way way down on the booze, eat healthy, and lift more weights. Get in really good shape with a focus on loosing your gut and building up muscle mass.

Remember the bedroom comes last.

It sounds like with the list of 50 things, you were pushing a list of sexual variations onto a woman who wasn't into sexually at all. *Of course* she will drag her heels and not show any interest. 

*Only* after a few months of your self-improvement program, then start focusing on sex. Start by flirting with her when you both know know timing isn't going to let it get anywhere so she is less threatened that it will lead to sexual activity. Send flirty texts. Responsive desire women need some time to warm up, so don't initiate sex when she's not expecting it - send a text in the afternoon that you're thinking of how she looked in the shower that morning , etc, to give her a heads up that it's sexy time later that day. 


After a few months of you working extremely hard to make yourself attractive and interesting, have a conversation with her about your sexual expectations in the marriage.

Ask her to read "His needs her needs". The conversation is that you have reasonable expectations around frequency and activities and that she needs to up her level of effort in the marriage and start to work harder to meet your needs. State that you have reasonable needs and reasonable expectations that need to be met and don't back down from that.

Don't show her the list of 50 things again until after you've made process on yourself.


If after several months of serious hard work of self-improvement on your part, you get nothing but pushback and resistance, and especially if there is a refusal to even have a conversation about expectations (or her breaking down and crying as an evasive move to avoid the conversation), then you have your answer and you know she is never going to be attracted to you and meet your needs. 

And then you leave.


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

Don't leave for this alone. You didn't Mary her for sex alone. Overrated is matter of opinion. Hers. It's not a fact. I'd try telling her how important it is to You and maybe ask if she wants to try counseling or something. But it's hard to divorce someone for loss of libido. I know it sucks but it happens to everyone eventually. Seems it happened to her a bit sooner than normal. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

Ok if a therapist caused more issues than I'm betting shes got a troubled past. Maybe abused. It's really hard for them to talk about it if she was abused. Try not to leave her. If this is the case and you leave before even finding out than it would be just another betrayal in her life. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

chris3320 said:


> To top is all off, she has competently ruined everything about sex.
> 
> -She no longer wants to receive oral, she claims it just is no longer enjoyable for her.
> -I have to beg to receive oral myself, she doesnt enjoy it because she gets nothing out if it
> ...


Try changing your mentality. Stop trying to change her. Women hate that. Do your best and except who she is and how she responds to things now. Hope and pray for change but don't argue and fight trying to get her back to a certain way. Most women change after giving birth. I know it sucks sometimes. Your wife was very open to sex and a lot of ways. Now shes not. If you accept who she is vs trying to change her she may be more receptive. The more you try to change her back, the more friction in your marriage theyll be. I've been going through the same damn ****. For 8 years. It's hard. I just didn't realize she was abused as a child for a long time until 8 months ago. I doubt thats the issue with your wife but you never know. It maybe hurt too much and she stopped going to the therapist. Try accepting her for who she is now and try everything like flowers at random times, date night...things like that but have no expectations. That just leeds to disappointment. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> In this scenario, I think you should separate and head toward divorce. That may or may not bring her back around, but if not, you will be on your way toward something different.


That could backfire and she may lose trust in him. Divorce should not be an option in his mind if he wants this to work. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

chris3320 said:


> Thinking of following though with divorce is the most painful thought ever, am I really going to destroy my family for the sake of better sex. But at the same time I feel I deserve to be happy and my wife us unwilling to fulfill that request in a manner than actually works for me. I feel I am worth more than a "I'm naked, lube up and do what you need to do so I can go to sleep"....
> 
> Part of me actually has though of entertaining the idea of an "approved" affair for the sake of our child. My son means the world to me and I would do anything for him.. I know its the worst decision for him to have daddy leave because he isnt happy in the bedroom..
> 
> I dont know whats more depressing, thinking about my life now, or thinking about destroying my family completely by leaving.


YES. please read this reply. Twice. If you want it to work out than divorce cant be an option and don't use it as an ultimatum. She may resent you for it. Look man, women when they are young are often into sex. Often times a child with age changes it. It could be a medication that changed her. It happened to my wife at 37 years old. But I could never divorce her for it. I may suggest you first try being romantic and maybe buying flowers more often and maybe a date night while accepting who she is. If still you feel like **** about everything and shes non receptive to your attempts I think you should ask her for marriage counseling. Explain it's not so I can change you but maybe so a therapist can help us with our marriage issues. If you're a Christian I suggest a Christian based counselor. Thats what I got us going to. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

jb02157 said:


> Same with my wife. She knows what to do and how to fix but doesn't. It's easier to quit then to try.


You could leave her and find out the dating world isn't what it used to be now that you're getting older. Or you could end up in a worse relationship wishing you had worked on the marriage. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

chris3320 said:


> And thats what I dont understand, the answers have been given to her she knows exactly what to do but rather that try she will argue that she is positive it will not help so she is not going to bother trying. But she will argue all day long that she is trying her hardest and open to anything. And if I bring up the fact she doesn't try and is seemingly open to nothing new she just gets pissed off and argues more.
> 
> The first time she told me she was open to anything I called her out and said she was a liar and she said no I will do anything. I said fine, I am going to make a list of things that I think will make us improve. The list had maybe 50 different items on it, from tame and harmless to wild and crazy. She attempted to do maybe 1 or 2o things on the list and anytime I ever brought it up she would start spouting off excuses on why right now is not a good time for whatever the suggestion was. It got to the point where rather than making a suggestion I would go straight to so tonight whats your excuses on why you dont want to wear lingerie, and she would go straight into why it was a bad time. I would be a sarcastic a-hole and it actually eliminated arguing. She knew I was pissed and she is destroying our marriage and not trying, but still she does nothing.
> 
> WHY!!! How can you say you love someone and will do anything for them yet at the same time prove you not willing to do a single damn thing even to prevent a divorce!


Ok well you should try asking her what she would like from you? She obviously knows what you want. You gave her a list of 50 things. Ask her if there's something you can do that would help things? Try not to turn your needs into a fight each time. Try accepting who She is. Women will not stay a sex maniac forever bro. They never do. I'm sorry to tell ya. When I tried I gave up asking for sex completely. I stayed to myself for awhile. I didn't ignore her or give her the silent treatment in anger. I just kind of stayed to myself or my son. I stayed busy and kind of left her alone for a week. Guess what, she came around on her own and offered sex. I had wished she "asked" for sex but hey it was something. So now I'm always doing that. I leave her alone and accept who she is. I get more affection that way. I get none if I'm on her all week asking for things she used to do. My wife is 48 now and I'm 37. We were having sex every 2 to 3 days up until a month ago. I've got a high sex drive. Now it's like once a week which Is fine. Leaving her alone shes nicer to me. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

Satya said:


> It sounds like appeasement sex at best, so you'll go away and be quiet until you need it again. I don't know about you, OP, but I'd personally be on fire to get my son out of that toxic and fake life. He is learning everything about marriage and intimacy from you both. No amount of talking can hide the truth. It'll only get worse and sex less frequent.
> 
> Her refusal to do any therapy homework is a giant middle finger to you. Just let her have what she wants... The pleasure of your non interference and pestering. You say that people in the tinder lifestyle have no idea about the pain and difficulty of ending long term relationships. That may be true, but you have hundreds of posters here who did it, understand it very well, and are fine, whether enjoying singlehood or married again.
> 
> Divorce before you cheat on her. You can keep your values and dignity intact on the way out. No reason to bring out the emotional nukes. Your son needs a father who is conscious of his needs and obtains them cerebrally and with integrity. That's just about one of the greatest and most meaningful lessons you could teach him.


Ignore advice telling you to divorce her. For not liking sex as much as she used to? Terrible advice. Unless you got married for great sex alone than divorce is bad advice. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Moliverna said:


> Ok if a therapist caused more issues than I'm betting shes got a troubled past. Maybe abused. It's really hard for them to talk about it if she was abused. Try not to leave her. If this is the case and you leave before even finding out than it would be just another betrayal in her life.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


It is a no-win situation if she was abused as a child. Until and unless she gets excellent professional trauma therapy she won't process his desire for sex nor him leaving the marriage (for any reason) accurately.

Having said that, she does not present to me as having been sexually abused. Their sex life was good until the child was born, which argues against some form of abuse or sexual trauma.


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

Thor said:


> It is a no-win situation if she was abused as a child. Until and unless she gets excellent professional trauma therapy she won't process his desire for sex nor him leaving the marriage (for any reason) accurately.
> 
> Having said that, she does not present to me as having been sexually abused. Their sex life was good until the child was born, which argues against some form of abuse or sexual trauma.


It's exactly how it went for us. Soon as son was born the switch flipped and slowly got worse and worse. I'm not saying she was but I'm saying it's possible. Who knows. His story is soo much like mine. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

Marriage take a 2 people. It's not about ones sexual needs. You need compromise in marriage. For whatever reason she is not interested in sex. BUT she still has sex for you. Keep that in mind. Shed rather not have sex at all but she does do it sometimes. Shes doing that for you. People especially women change with age and life changing events like a child being born. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Moliverna said:


> Ignore advice telling you to divorce her. For not liking sex as much as she used to? Terrible advice. Unless you got married for great sex alone than divorce is bad advice.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


One thing I do not do on this board, @Moliverna, is outright tell the OP to ignore a posters advice unless it is well and truly off the mark. I respect others' opinions here and that they may disagree with mine, but the only person who has the right IMO to decide if it's wrong is the OP, and unless I'm mistaken, that isn't you. 

Perhaps you'd like to expand on your post, for the OP, why you disagree with my advice, and what you think is the correct course of action?


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

He's here for advice. I was giving mine. He doesn't need to follow my advice. Or yours. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Moliverna said:


> He's here for advice. I was giving mine. He doesn't need to follow my advice. Or yours.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


It's fine to argue out a viewpoint and offer a cogent argument but you're coming off as it's your way or no way.

Each poster is entitled to offer up whatever advice they see fit, as long as it's not specifying someone to ignore a post.

You got a lot of help on your thread, let the OP decide what's best for them.


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

You're right. Sorry about that. I just think divorce is a big deal. Nobody's mentioning after divorce that everything he likes will be half gone. Or child support likelihood and the cost of a divorce. I didn't like on my post how a lot were suggesting divorce either. But that's just me. Sorry for how I came off about it. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

You don't need to have a perfect life, perfect wife, perfect Sex to have a great life. You need to focus and appreciate the things you do have instead of focusing on the things you don't have. Trust me, you think if sex was better this would magically solve all your problems and you would be happy forever? Who is to say that the next person you end up with meets all your criteria? And sustains that criteria for life. It's ridiculous.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> You don't need to have a perfect life, perfect wife, perfect Sex to have a great life. You need to focus and appreciate the things you do have instead of focusing on the things you don't have. Trust me, you think if sex was better this would magically solve all your problems and you would be happy forever? Who is to say that the next person you end up with meets all your criteria? And sustains that criteria for life. It's ridiculous.


The OP says there is zero emotion or intimacy.

It's not "ridiculous" at all to want that in a relationship. In fact, that's what an adult sexual relationship (marriage) is about at it's core. It's what separates marriage from any other relationship (family, friends).

OP is not needing a "perfect" sex life. His is lacking in any real emotion or mutual sexual desire or intimacy. It's not too much to expect and want that, and is definitely a valid reason for divorce.


----------



## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

Livvie said:


> The OP says there is zero emotion or intimacy.
> 
> It's not "ridiculous" at all to want that in a relationship. In fact, that's what an adult sexual relationship (marriage) is about at it's core. It's what separates marriage from any other relationship (family, friends).
> 
> OP is not needing a "perfect" sex life. His is lacking in any real emotion or mutual sexual desire or intimacy. It's not too much to expect and want that, and is definitely a valid reason for divorce.




Agreed. Both husband and wife are allowed to have needs in a marriage. She needs emotional connection, financial support, the social status of having a husband, etc. He needs sex, respect, companionship, etc. 
The notion of "His needs Her needs" is real and legitimate.

And when needs aren't being met for some period of time, intent and effort are the key things to look at.

A guy who puts family in financial jeopardy from working and bringing in a paycheck because he's been years of Xbox and pot smoking is wildly different than a guy who isn't working because he just got laid off and is doing all the job hunting work he can in order to land a new position.

A wife with no libido and isn't having sex with her husband because she has an illness or is breastfeeding is wildly different than a wife who has decided to be a sexual refuser or who uses sex as a control tactic.

If critical needs aren't being met, and if there's no effort being made, then divorce is often a very good idea.


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

Satya said:


> One thing I do not do on this board, @Moliverna, is outright tell the OP to ignore a posters advice unless it is well and truly off the mark. I respect others' opinions here and that they may disagree with mine, but the only person who has the right IMO to decide if it's wrong is the OP, and unless I'm mistaken, that isn't you.
> 
> Perhaps you'd like to expand on your post, for the OP, why you disagree with my advice, and what you think is the correct course of action?


Well I think if someone's on here upset looking for advice and we start suggesting a divorce that maybe we should also inform him of the possible outcomes from divorce. Child support payments likely from him, half of his stuff will be hers, kid may lose trust in him for leaving...things like that. I guess I just feel that marriage is more than ones sexual needs. Compromise is huge in marriage. You can't force someone to like something they all of a sudden don't. Not with medications or counseling. I came off in the wrong way when I disagreed with your advice. Sorry about that. Really it's just my opinion. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> You don't need to have a perfect life, perfect wife, perfect Sex to have a great life. You need to focus and appreciate the things you do have instead of focusing on the things you don't have. Trust me, you think if sex was better this would magically solve all your problems and you would be happy forever? Who is to say that the next person you end up with meets all your criteria? And sustains that criteria for life. It's ridiculous.


Also if you decide to divorce and meet someone else maybe a little younger...what if she loses interest after awhile? Another divorce? I mean I think most women lose some interest in sex as they age. Hopefully she can come and meet you in the middle somewhere with your needs and hers. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

Moliverna said:


> Also if you decide to divorce and meet someone else maybe a little younger...what if she loses interest after awhile? Another divorce? I mean I think most women lose some interest in sex as they age. Hopefully she can come and meet you in the middle somewhere with your needs and hers.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk





The only person we can advise here is him - she's not here on TAM and we can't point out to her the consequences of not trying, of letting her libido die, and ignoring her husbands needs.


It's on him (the OP) to try to work as hard as he can to be as attractive as he can be, and demonstrate leadership and change the dynamic in the marriage, in order to try and avoid divorce. But if he does the real hard work of running a MAP and in a year from now she still can't bring herself to make the effort to do the things he needs in a marriage, then yes he should divorce.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

MartinBeck said:


> Agreed. Both husband and wife are allowed to have needs in a marriage. She needs emotional connection, financial support, the social status of having a husband, etc. He needs sex, respect, companionship, etc.
> The notion of "His needs Her needs" is real and legitimate.
> 
> And when needs aren't being met for some period of time, intent and effort are the key things to look at.
> ...




What are you talking about? She knows that Sex is important to him, she knows that it's a need for him which is why she has sex with him a couple times a week. That's better than a lot of healthy happy couples.

She is not a refuser and she doesn't use sex as a control tactic.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Moliverna said:


> Also if you decide to divorce and meet someone else maybe a little younger...what if she loses interest after awhile? Another divorce? I mean I think most women lose some interest in sex as they age. Hopefully she can come and meet you in the middle somewhere with your needs and hers.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk




This is crazy to me. So keep finding new people that meet your checklist and keep divorcing them when they fail to meet your checklist??

Sorry you and I view marriage very differently. I would never divorce my husband if he does the best he can but can't meet certain things I want. That's marriage and life. It's not always about ourselves getting what we want. If he gets sick and can't have sex with me, I won't leave him Bc my sexual needs arent getting met. If he loses his job, I won't divorce him because my financial needs aren't being met.


----------



## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> You don't need to have a perfect life, perfect wife, perfect Sex to have a great life. You need to focus and appreciate the things you do have instead of focusing on the things you don't have. Trust me, you think if sex was better this would magically solve all your problems and you would be happy forever? Who is to say that the next person you end up with meets all your criteria? And sustains that criteria for life. It's ridiculous.




I find this very dismissive and belittling of his needs.

If a husband decided to stop working and instead smoke pot and play Xbox all day long, do you think a complaining wife be ok with a poster telling her to chill out and that a husband getting a job wouldn't solve her problems and make her happy? 

People have different needs, and a poster can have a legitimate need that may be different than your needs. Many men very much do need a rewarding sex life to be happy in life. Many men make sexuality and sexual compatibility a big part of choosing a spouse and deciding to get married at all. A big reason of why her married her was for the sex and now it has been turned off.


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> This is crazy to me. So keep finding new people that meet your checklist and keep divorcing them when they fail to meet your checklist??
> 
> Sorry you and I view marriage very differently. I would never divorce my husband if he does the best he can but can't meet certain things I want. That's marriage and life. It's not always about ourselves getting what we want. If he gets sick and can't have sex with me, I won't leave him Bc my sexual needs arent getting met. If he loses his job, I won't divorce him because my financial needs aren't being met.


Yes that's what I was trying to say. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> What are you talking about? She knows that Sex is important to him, she knows that it's a need for him which is why she has sex with him a couple times a week. That's better than a lot of healthy happy couples.
> 
> She is not a refuser and she doesn't use sex as a control tactic.




No kissing unless he follows her rules. Oral and anal used to be on the menu and now it's not. 

Men can't go backwards on sexual activities and women can't go backwards on lifestyle. 
Chris Rock explains:

https://youtu.be/lPesKyIhGZg


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

MartinBeck said:


> No kissing unless he follows her rules. Oral and anal used to be on the menu and now it's not.
> 
> Men can't go backwards on sexual activities and women can't go backwards on lifestyle.
> Chris Rock explains:
> ...




Whatever you say. If he gets divorced I bet it will be the biggest mistake in his life.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I don't know if anal and oral sex is worth ruining a family. But OP have at it.


----------



## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> This is crazy to me. So keep finding new people that meet your checklist and keep divorcing them when they fail to meet your checklist??
> 
> Sorry you and I view marriage very differently. I would never divorce my husband if he does the best he can but can't meet certain things I want. That's marriage and life. It's not always about ourselves getting what we want. If he gets sick and can't have sex with me, I won't leave him Bc my sexual needs arent getting met. If he loses his job, I won't divorce him because my financial needs aren't being met.




If your husband lost his job and decided to stay home and smoke pot and Xbox, and demand you come home from work and clean and cook for him, instead of him doing anything productive for the family, I'd be the first one telling you to dump the man-child. And so would everyone else on TAM.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I don't know if anal and oral sex is worth ruining a family. But OP have at it.


The OP is missing the emotional connection and intimacy that a healthy, fully engaged sex life should bring to a marriage. You have degraded it to be about particular sex acts. 

OP I ended my first marriage which was sexless/passionless. Was the best thing I could have done, both of us were set free from a place that we both hated. Life is too short to martyr yourself. Show your kids a better example than that.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

If you can solve this problem you will be the richest man on the planet.

You will also be the cause of the collapse of mankind.

When men can "fix" women's libido, make them as horny as men, for life......

There will be no chain strong enough to keep her home with her man and her family.

And no "one man" would be able to hold her interest for more than a month.

God was not stupid...uh, uh!

Just sayin'


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> If you can solve this problem you will be the richest man on the planet.
> 
> You will also be the cause of the collapse of mankind.
> 
> ...


Yeah right because we all know that HD women have no morals.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> Yeah right because we all know that HD women have no morals.


I was ready for you, Dear. 

Yes, there already many women who are HD, like yourself. And many of these "lucky?" women *make out*, just peachy like you.

The difference is obvious. You have a head on your shoulders, you are smart, sophisticated and worldly. 

Women who have your qualities can weather the "existing" supra-normal hormonal storm. 

Danger! The coming sexual-chemo-therapy will increase your HD-NESS to a new level.

If you thought you had an itch before, you do not know what is coming!
.................................................................................................................................................................

There are about ~3 billion women in this world. Many are poor, uneducated and unprepared for the pepper spray burning in their mind and in their genitals that science and medicine and ad agencies will force on them. Oh, and they will put something ad-dikk-tive in the pills. So you keep buying them.

I know this.....


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> I was ready for you, Dear.
> 
> Yes, there already many women who are HD, like yourself. And many of these "lucky?" women *make out*, just peachy like you.
> 
> ...


Is there an IPO being released? I'll buy shares for sure. Not for my own use but for profit.

And thank you for the smart, sophisticated and worldly compliment, you may have just made my day


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> The OP is missing the emotional connection and intimacy that a healthy, fully engaged sex life should bring to a marriage. You have degraded it to be about particular sex acts.
> 
> OP I ended my first marriage which was sexless/passionless. Was the best thing I could have done, both of us were set free from a place that we both hated. Life is too short to martyr yourself. Show your kids a better example than that.


His marriage is far from sexless,she just doesnt want to do some of things that he does.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> Is there an IPO being released? I'll buy shares for sure. Not for my own use but for profit.
> 
> And thank you for the smart, sophisticated and worldly compliment, *you may have just made my day *


Thank you, too!.......In reflection, in return.

I could never make you. That would be way above my allotted "Standing Orders" in the Universal Scheme. 

But, not in my free-ranging imagination! Men and women can always dream........and dream we do....

Call it Hope............................................................not from Canada, circa 1964!
.............................................................................................................................................................

NEXT-

A little doom and gloom.
Sorry!

The IPO will never materialize. It will initially be privately financed and held. Big Pharma and regulators will then crush/absorb the upstarts. Too much money to be had by one patent holder. Obscurity, maybe death will arrive quickly for the physio-chemist who creates this E-licks-her...only after a mole steals the formula, giving it to big money folks.


----------



## messengeroflove (May 15, 2017)

I am driven to reply to this because this could be my husband talking lol. I was always into having sex prior to having children, but after the birth of my children, the passion definitely waned in our marriage. We have 2 kids and between work, child rearing, home and extended family responsibilities, I literally had no energy left for sex. There just wasn't any space available in my brain to "work it in" on top of everything else. I applaud the fact that you take on home responsibilities since many men do not, but you may not realize that your wife carries an "invisible workload" beyond housework. This article explains it well: (Gender Gap: The Invisible Workload That Drags Women Down | Money). The mental exhaustion was definitely a factor for me and could also be a factor in your situation. 

Exhaustion aside, if you really love your wife and want to be with her, I think you should re-frame your view of the meaning of love and marriage. First, realize this is just a season of your marriage and not necessarily a permanent situation. Pregnancy, childbirth, and raising a child to the age of 3 is a big job and takes a toll on both parents mentally and physically. It just may affect your wife to a greater degree than it does you, and that should be OK. You are there to lift each other up in times of need, not bail when the going gets tough.

Second, and this is going to seem completely foreign at first, but you need to stop "needing to be desired" in order to feel loved. In our society, we are generally taught that love comes from others, but I challenge you to see YOURSELF as love. Realize that you already ARE the love that you seek. There is no need to require anyone to do anything to make you feel loved, not even your spouse, because you ALREADY ARE the highest and purest love possible simply because you are YOU. When you free yourself from needing your wife to make you feel a certain way, you can allow the true purpose of your relationship to unfold, which is for you to become the highest and greatest version of yourself through the lessons and experiences you encounter in the relationship. So ask yourself, "How can this situation I am in with my wife bring me to a greater awareness of myself?", "What lessons can I learn?", "What issues in my past is this triggering, and how can I resolve them once and for all through my reaction to this situation?". For expert advice on this concept, I recommend the following books: Turn Your Mate Into Your Soulmate by Arielle Ford and Quantum Love by Dr. Laura Berman.

I can relate to your situation because an issue that has clouded my marriage for many years is that my spouse and I have different love languages and I don't often "feel loved" because my spouse doesn't show love using my love language. But I have stayed with him because I absolutely love him and want to live my life with him. We tried marriage counseling multiple times over the course of the years to no avail. However, once I removed the dependency of needing my husband to "make me feel loved", it was like a switch was flipped. I suddenly started appreciating him for who he is, and there is no better aphrodisiac than being in deep appreciation for your partner. Shortly after I came to this realization, we happened to have a tropical vacation planned, just the two of us. The level of intimacy we experienced was phenomenal, and I attribute it to being in such a state of appreciation for all he is, rather than him "making me feel" something. And the feeling has stayed even after the vacation and has truly made our marriage and sex life much better.

I hope this offers some glimmer of hope that you and your wife can work things out. Maybe you can share some of these thoughts with her and she will also work on her side of the relationship to bring you two closer and to a greater level of intimacy. Realize that giving up on your marriage can have grave consequences down the road, and being patient and working to improve your marriage just a little each day may be a better option than divorce in the long run. 

Remember, you are love. You can do this. xoxo


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> His marriage is far from sexless,she just doesnt want to do some of things that he does.


OP said


> Or maybe I am the one with the issues, to feel really loved I want to feel desired sexually. She is unable to do that and it makes me feel completely unwanted. To the point where if I cant turn on my own wife, why are we together. I need to have a healthy intimate sex life to feel happy with our marriage. Her approach of bang me so your getting some isnt the same, there is zero emotion or intimacy. I feel like its a crappy f*** buddy or a sad one night stand rather than a real marriage with people that love each other.


I said


> The OP is missing the emotional connection and intimacy that a healthy, fully engaged sex life should bring to a marriage. You have degraded it to be about particular sex acts.


I did not say his marriage was sexless :scratchhead: It was another poster that was making the whole issue to be about certain sex acts that were no longer being shared.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

MartinBeck said:


> If your husband lost his job and decided to stay home and smoke pot and Xbox, and demand you come home from work and clean and cook for him, instead of him doing anything productive for the family, I'd be the first one telling you to dump the man-child. And so would everyone else on TAM.




100%
But what does that have to do with the OP and his wife? She has Sex with him a couple times a week.


----------



## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> 100%
> But what does that have to do with the OP and his wife? She has Sex with him a couple times a week.




She is having starfish duty get-it-over-with sex.
Which is a hell of a lot better than her being a sexual refuser, but a very long way from what he needs in the marriage. And he is also feeling a bit bait-and-switched because of activities that are no longer on the menu.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

IDK about this thread. This is one of those threads where I would love to see the spouse chime in to get the complete story. This may be little more than a typical detour that can happen at times when you have very young kids to deal with. Seems weird that starfish sex could result in orgasms - so maybe the truth is closer to the middle. Was the wife's thyroid ever checked? That too can be a libido killer.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I don't know if anal and oral sex is worth ruining a family. But OP have at it.




Depends if those are consecutive or separate activities 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Moliverna said:


> You could leave her and find out the dating world isn't what it used to be now that you're getting older. Or you could end up in a worse relationship wishing you had worked on the marriage.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


Exactly that's one of the reasons why I have chosen not to leave yet. I worry that if I do that I might end up getting stuck worse that I already am. I realize that not the best attitude to have but I'm not sure I'll get another shot at this.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

The longer you wait to get out, the older you'll be. If you think your current prospects as a single would be less than ideal, next year they will be even worse.

I had all the same concerns about finding someone new. Anybody else out there I'd date would have baggage of some sort. There's the risk I'd pick poorly somehow and end up with an even worse marriage than the last one.

But that is scarcity thought. One should look at the current situation alone without comparing it to possible other relationships. Scarcity is the same kind of false thought process as Grass Is Greener, but on the other side of the spectrum. Either the current marriage is acceptable on its own merits or it is not acceptable.

There is nothing wrong with attempting to improve the current marriage to become acceptable. Just keep in mind time is a perishable and limited commodity. If real improvements are not seen quickly, accept the fact your spouse is either unwilling or unable to do what is necessary to make the marriage acceptable.


----------



## Moliverna (Apr 9, 2017)

jb02157 said:


> Exactly that's one of the reasons why I have chosen not to leave yet. I worry that if I do that I might end up getting stuck worse that I already am. I realize that not the best attitude to have but I'm not sure I'll get another shot at this.


Let's hope it works out bro

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

In my experience, the first 2 or 3 years after the birth of your first child can be really really rough on a marriage. On the other hand, things should be starting to noticeably improve by now. 

If it hasn't really improved in your eyes, my suggestion would be to read Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay then start a MAP and give it 6 months, 12 months, whatever you are comfortable with. There is a book on the MAP you can read too.

Take charge of yourself and your relationships (especially with your kid). Stop whining about the crappy sex life. Stop waving the list in her face. Start detaching and stop putting your happiness and well being in her hands.

Either stop doing all the housework or stop resenting her for it. Do only what you are comfortable with and let her sink or swim on her own for the rest. A simple statement that you are sick and tired of doing everything is definitely appropriate. Then tell her what you are ok with and that she is responsible for the rest. If she doesn't or won't pick up the slack, let her know it isn't acceptable and you will eventually move on. 

Start doing things on your own, work out, engage in the hobbies that you like (with or without her), become a more attractive man. Improve your sex rank. If it doesn't kick start her sex drive, then it doesn't. By the end of 6 months you will so far along in the detachment from her that a separation will simply be just the next natural step in this process and you won't be so emotionally conflicted about the impending separation or divorce.

Or you could just separate now, get 50% custody of the kid, shock her and make it real for her. But, from what I've read, it really doesn't sound to me like you are quite ready for that.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I've read this and other forums here on TAM where I just wonder what?

First you say she says lube up and enjoy and claim she is orgasming. I doubt it. Even if she says she is even if she makes appropriate noises.

Sounds like she is the typical mother who is tired and emotionally exhausted and whose husband doesn't get it. 

In truth if my husband came to this site after our child was born everyone would have told him to divorce me. It wasn't all his fault but I didn't feel sexy, I was tired and the first year after birth we might have only had sex twice in that whole year.

We have a very close relationship except I didn't talk about sex much. I didn't tell him sex actually hurt for a longtime after birth. I also like 80 % of the women sometimes fake orgasm.

But as I've gotten older and more talkative and more comfortable I've learned to communicate (still working on it). I now accept that it takes more stimulation to get me to orgasm and that sex time won't necessarily be equal. With better quality sex I now want it more ( I also don't have a 3 year old).

So why won't you shave? Accept that oral may not be as pleasurable or she may worry about changes that have occurred. How with little stimulation is she orgasming? Why are you worried about oral and anal? Doggy every time might be boring but you get sex and an orgasm. I'd be more worried the lack of intimacy. You are talking divorce because you aren't getting variety and enthusiasm, I'd think she'd be concerned with lack of pleasure and waste of time. 

Despite what some have experienced it can definitely get better with time. Young children often inadvertently effect sex. I can tell you my husband and I now have sex 5-10 times a week, oral, anal, doggy, spoon, missionary , cowgirl, reverse cowgirl, edge of bed, toys and anything else we can conceive that might work with his back. I don't really see your current approach and attitude as being conducive for improvement. The one thing she has indicated she wants from you, shave, you don't do and it's a small thing how's she suppose to think that you'll respond positively to I'd like to be fingered? We vibed? Cockring with fingers and a bullet? She may not even know what it is that will bring a satisfying orgasm. Women's orgasms vary greatly. From barely there to speechless.


----------



## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Chris make two points: 1-You can't continue to live like this and you will be forced seek a divorce.
2-If she wants a relationship with any man after divorce, she had better get off her azz and find out why she has no libido.

Tell her to imagine a world where when people ask why her marriage fell apart, she can say, "I guess I got disinterested in sex, and he was still interested, so...."


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Taxman said:


> Chris make two points: 1-You can't continue to live like this and you will be forced seek a divorce.
> 2-If she wants a relationship with any man after divorce, she had better get off her azz and find out why she has no libido.
> 
> Tell her to imagine a world where when people ask why her marriage fell apart, she can say, "I guess I got disinterested in sex, and he was still interested, so...."


But she won't say that. She'll tell them about how controlling he was without telling them about the girls nights... History can be very convenient when you get to make it up as you go.


----------



## Dannip (Jun 13, 2017)

Doctors are not that smart. Read up on some books by Suzanne Summers. Then see a doc who gets its. It can be a simple as rebalancing her hormones after birth.


----------

