# Some guidance for a clueless male



## HappyCamper (Apr 30, 2013)

Yup I am a clueless male looking for direction on our sex life. 

My significant other and I have been together 10 years. Initially we had a sizzling sex life which was amazing.

Then after a few years it dwindled and at least for the past 4 or 5 years its been pretty much once a fortnight, sometimes less, occasionally more.

I am really struggling with this. She is such a hotty both physically and personality wise that the idea of making out pops into my head quite a bit more than once a fortnight leaving me pretty desperate.

I make plenty of attempts including making a massage a bit more erotic than usual, to extra passionate kisses, to gentle romantic kisses and touch to down right suggesting it.

I don't seem to cope with it well, although I hide it, inside feel a little dejected and rejected at times... A bit sad internally that the passion is not burning in the bedroom.

Outside of the bedroom we are a pretty affectionate couple and I love her dearly and I know she loves me dearly, I can see it in her eyes.

I have been doing some reading of books and after reading suggestions here I thought I would bring it up - boy was that a huge mistake. She is a words person so I never seem to get these things across well so that it promotes positive conversation.

It has been 3 weeks since the last time so on our way home tonight from a movie date I decided I would bring it up. 

I said that although I know she loves me I don't feel like she has much desire for me intimately anymore and I was wondering if there is something I am doing, some way she is currently feeling and I was hoping to get to the bottom of it together.

To that she went totally silent and eventually burst into tears. She got really aggressive when I tried to calm her and said that basically I am suggesting she doesn't love me anymore.

When I tried to explain that that wasn't the case that I wasn't talking about love I was purely talking about intimacy she told me to shut up and stop hurting her.

I left it there.

What the hell is going on? What do I do now? I really need to work through this but I recon now it will be a while before we make out again.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

HappyCamper said:


> I make plenty of attempts including making a massage a bit more erotic than usual, to extra passionate kisses, to gentle romantic kisses and touch to down right suggesting it.


Most of that qualifies as pushing. You're doing that to get her into a sexual mood. She knows that. The thing is, she doesn't want to have sex with you. So, you trying to overtly seduce her won't go over well. Pushing doesn't work. Switch to pulling. Be attractive and she will come to you.

Imagine you go to your parents for Thanksgiving dinner. You're stuffed to the rafters. Then, you go home and your girlfriend tries to feed you dinner. You decline. But then she starts trying to get you to eat just a little of this, or try a bite of that. It's obviously to try to get you to eat, but the thought makes you nauseous.

That's what sex with you is like for her. She doesn't want any part of it. And you trying to massage her and bring it up just makes her nauseous. What you have to do is make yourself look more appetizing.



> I have been doing some reading of books and after reading suggestions here I thought I would bring it up - boy was that a huge mistake. She is a words person so I never seem to get these things across well so that it promotes positive conversation.


Right. Stop with the talks. You're not ready for the talks yet. That comes well after you've made yourself more appetizing.



> To that she went totally silent and eventually burst into tears. She got really aggressive when I tried to calm her and said that basically I am suggesting she doesn't love me anymore.


That is exactly what you're saying. And I don't blame you. Look, women have sex with men they love. If your girlfriend doesn't want to have sex with you, then she loves you less than she used to. The tears, combined with her aggressiveness, is just a smokescreen to make you back off.



> When I tried to explain that that wasn't the case that I wasn't talking about love I was purely talking about intimacy she told me to shut up and stop hurting her.
> 
> I left it there.


She told you to shut up and you shut up? Did you fetch her slippers too?



> What the hell is going on? What do I do now? I really need to work through this but I recon now it will be a while before we make out again.


There are two reasons for a drop in libido that have nothing to do with you. She could have low hormones, or she could be having an affair. To rule out the hormones, you take her to the doctor and have her hormone levels checked. And don't allow the doctor to blow you off. Some doctors will simply ask how often you have sex and reply that she's normal without running tests. Run the tests. If her hormones are low, hormone therapy may increase her libido.

If her hormones are normal, then you look for evidence of an affair. I know your girlfriend is perfect and loves you and you can just tell that she would never betray you, but you can go to the Coping With Infidelity board and hear that same story from a hundred guys who discovered their wives or girlfriends were cheating on them. So do your homework. Check her phone. Check her phone billing records. Check her Facebook/email activity. Check her credit card statements. Look for red flags.

If nothing comes of the hormones/affair, then it's you. She's just not into you. So you have to change yourself into a more attractive version of you. Stop badgering her about sex because it won't work. Also, it makes you look needy and weak. Be strong. Go to the gym and add some muscle. Work on some hobbies. Leave your girlfriend alone at home while you go out. Give her an opportunity to miss you. Go to Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits. and run the Marriage Action Plan (MAP).

Good luck.


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## HappyCamper (Apr 30, 2013)

Thanks for the suggestions.

I didn't actually think of that stuff as pushy. I like giving massages and she likes them so she gets a rub every other day or so... I didn't think that the occasional massage being a bit more sexy than the 5 or 6 others would be seen as pushy... so thanks for the tip there. 

I guess i always thought that as a guy u needed to do things to get your SO in the mood, so I will quit it.

Is that really true "women have sex with men they love... She loves you less than she use too" - ouch wow! Gees.

She is not a big fan of me going out and leaving her alone but maybe that is what is needed.

Cheers.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

One thing I learned over my now resolved ordeal...

Words do matter...

A sentence I said in anger was I estimate at least 40-50% of the cause of extending my sexless marriage.

Best advice... give her time and years down the road apologize again.


Women never forget and no matter how much you rationalize what you meant at the time she will NOT believe you. It is now your reality to dig out of that and it will take time and you proving to her you love her without words.


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## HappyCamper (Apr 30, 2013)

Well... I brought it up based on another thread where people were asking "well have you told your wife how you feel".

Aggghhhhh it just seems impossible to do the right thing sometimes. I try and try but it just seems like I am always doing something wrong... 

Anyway I'll work it out


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

HappyCamper said:


> I guess i always thought that as a guy u needed to do things to get your SO in the mood, so I will quit it.


You're half right. Men have spontaneous desire. We are always in the mood, or we can get in the mood at the drop of a hat. Women have responsive desire. They're usually not in the mood until we start making moves on them.

The thing is, when men have sex less, we try to take advantage of every opportunity. So, you're probably giving your sexy massages to try to have sex with her. Any flicker of interest on her part, and you're probably ready to jump her. But that will turn her off and make her distrust your massages.

What you should do is to continue to show interest, but become outcome independent. Athol Kay, the author of the Married Man Sex Life website and book that I suggested, recommends the ten second kiss (TSK). Kiss your girlfriend passionately for ten seconds. Then, walk away. Don't make a move for sex. Make it sexy, but not about sex. That can help get her motor running when she's not worried about giving any sign of interest and encouraging you to go for it.



> Is that really true "women have sex with men they love... She loves you less than she use too" - ouch wow! Gees.


Yep. Sorry. Sometimes, the truth hurts. The good news is that it's fairly common. You've dated for several years. You've changed. She's changed. Imagine your girlfriend died her hair a different color (going from blonde to red, for example). You would either like it, or you would hate it. But you wouldn't make a conscious choice about it. You're just hard wired to prefer one or the other.

And that's the way your girlfriend feels. She probably not choosing to be less attracted to you. She just is. But you can become more attractive. If you learn what women think is attractive, you can adopt those traits to become more attractive. Now, you can't become taller or much better looking. But, you can become more muscular, more assertive, more confident. And that is usually enough to rekindle the interest of a wife or girlfriend.



> She is not a big fan of me going out and leaving her alone but maybe that is what is needed.


That's exactly what's needed. You are going to become an interesting guy with an interesting life. You don't have time to stay home and not have sex with your girlfriend. Do you really think that sitting home and watching another movie is going to attract your girlfriend? Hell no. Posting some pictures on Facebook from your latest hike (with a mixed group of friends, including some available women) will. That's interesting. That's sexy.

Good luck.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Best thing you can do now is work on you and SHUTUP... your wife is not deaf.

Next time you bring up anything is at least six months down the road.

Settle in for the long haul....stop the bleeding.

Good Luck


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

HappyCamper said:


> Well... I brought it up based on another thread where people were asking "well have you told your wife how you feel".
> 
> Aggghhhhh it just seems impossible to do the right thing sometimes. I try and try but it just seems like I am always doing something wrong...
> 
> Anyway I'll work it out


Seriously. Read the Married Man Sex Life (MMSL) website and primer. I was in your shoes a few years ago. My marriage was in crisis. I was having sex about twice a month and calling the lawyers.

Then, I found MMSL and unlocked the secret to changing my marriage for the better. I learned how women think. I learned what they think. I learned what they find attractive. I learned what they really need, as opposed to what they say, or think, they need.

They call it taking the red pill (from the Matrix). You take the red pill and then wake up to see the truth that you were blind to. Most of the blue pill people believe women are one way when they are actually quite different. The blue pill men are the ones wasting their time like I used to by trying to give my wife what she said she wanted.

Once you take the red pill, you stop wasting your time. Your effort becomes efficient and effective. You get results.

My marriage immediately improved. I'm up to having sex at least twice a week and my wife and I are much happier. It can seriously save your relationship.

Good luck.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

HappyCamper said:


> Well... I brought it up based on another thread where people were asking "well have you told your wife how you feel".
> 
> Aggghhhhh it just seems impossible to do the right thing sometimes. I try and try but it just seems like I am always doing something wrong...
> 
> Anyway I'll work it out


A couple of other thoughts:

1. You appear to be smothering her. As has been advised, pull back a bit and give her some space. Cut back a bit on your touches and "I love yous" can help.

2. While women do want someone that can communicate their thoughts and feelings, some women do not want a man who constantly tries to do that, as it can come across as whiney and clingy. Consider that you might be talking to much. Now that she knows your feelings, don't bring them up again until she does. Rather, communicate with you actions.


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## Lionlady (Sep 12, 2012)

PHT, I respectfully disagree with a lot of the things you've said. I'm a woman in my thirties, have been married for a long time...just to clarify...and there have been times in my life when I had a lower drive and times when I had a higher drive. When I had a lower drive, I didn't love my husband any less. 

Looking back, most of it had to do with me. 

I'm not saying that there's no truth in the Athol Kay stuff. I've read through it, and I am sure there's truth in it for some relationships. But certainly not all, and there's not nearly enough information here to jump to that conclusion.

Sex can start to slow down in long term relationships and so shaking things up in any (hopefully positive) way may increase the sparks. Sure...if my husband lost 25 pounds and got a six pack that would be fun, but when we took up a physical hobby *together* we both liked that also helped.

HappyCamper...I feel like this is another one of those...is something getting left out posts. Your SO's reaction sounds weird. If my husband came to me and said he was upset because we weren't being intimate and though he was doing something wrong, I would feel really bad and want to assure him that was not the case. So I can't understand why your SO got aggressive...maybe defensive because she knows something is off and is not sure what to do about it? 

It's not a very nice or mature reaction. But you can't force people to be nice or mature.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Lionlady said:


> HappyCamper...I feel like this is another one of those...is something getting left out posts. Your SO's reaction sounds weird. If my husband came to me and said he was upset because we weren't being intimate and though he was doing something wrong, I would feel really bad and want to assure him that was not the case. So I can't understand why your SO got aggressive...maybe defensive because she knows something is off and is not sure what to do about it?


I agree that it is likely that she does not know what is wrong. Unfortunately, there is nothing the OP can do to figure that out for her or force her to tell him.

He can take some steps that might help. I do think that pulling back a small bit may help her, as I it looks like he is smothering her. The OP needs to work on some of his stuff and see if doing that helps.

I would also suggest His Needs/Her Needs to see if she would complete it.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

OP don't listen to female nay-sayers on this topic. Trust me, you don't ask a deer for hunting tips.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

HappyCamper said:


> I said that although I know she loves me I don't feel like she has much desire for me intimately anymore and I was wondering if there is something I am doing, some way she is currently feeling and I was hoping to get to the bottom of it together.


Talk to her! But, try to have a positive conversation. The goal is to get your message across and that message is - more sex.

Talking about her lack of desire for you is not positive conversation. On the other hand talking about abundance of YOUR desire for her is positive. Tell her that you want to have sex with her, don't mention the past, don't mention the current stats. 

Just talk about your desire for her and see what happens. Stay positive. 

Once I've learned this simple truth about keeping a conversations positive when you want something accomplished has done a lot for me on my job and in our bed. I've turned my wife from 1-2 per month to a 3 times per week using this method.

My conversations before that were just like yours and they did nothing except make her feel guilty which is not a turn on. It's not a turn on.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

HappyCamper said:


> To that she went totally silent and eventually burst into tears. She got really aggressive when I tried to calm her and said that basically I am suggesting she doesn't love me anymore.
> 
> When I tried to explain that that wasn't the case that I wasn't talking about love I was purely talking about intimacy she told me to shut up and stop hurting her.
> 
> ...



No one can possibly answer that question without knowing more about you, your wife, and your mutual history. 

However, one thing is plain. If she bursts into tears at the mere discussion of a problem, then that's a problem all by itself. She's being extremely defensive, and that that suggests to me is that she's incredibly insecure about this situation. Either she or you both might need to get into therapy to get to the root of that problem.

But here's one practical tip. When she says "_shut up and stop hurting me_", then a good response would be a question of your own: "_If you don't want to talk about this now, fair enough, but when can we talk about this problem_?" If she gives you a time to do it, then great. But if she says "never", then you have a pretty clear picture of how she really cares about you and your feelings. Do with that what you will.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

PHTlump,

Your advice is a little contradictory. On the one hand, you say the OP should "make himself more attractive", but on the other hand, he should change himself, and then wait/see/hope that his wife comes around? A passive guy who hopes for things to happen isn't necessarily attractive to his wife.

I guess you are suggesting he do a 180, but that should be a last resort, not a first resort.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

You don't EVER ask... you insist. You are the man she is the woman.

Every six months you remind her things are unacceptable. Its simply stages of healing towards a better future for both of you.

Time to shut up and stand up to your wife anytime she displeases you (Outside the bedroom)
Also read up on Women's needs you have lots of time to do that.
Attempt for sex but don't whine or plead.
Listen to her.

Use lack of sex as a positive... a chance to correct the dynamics of your marriage.

Next Verbal action on your part is six months from now.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Theseus said:


> PHTlump,
> 
> Your advice is a little contradictory. On the one hand, you say the OP should "make himself more attractive", but on the other hand, he should change himself, and then wait/see/hope that his wife comes around? A passive guy who hopes for things to happen isn't necessarily attractive to his wife.
> 
> I guess you are suggesting he do a 180, but that should be a last resort, not a first resort.


I don't read it that way at all. Rather, the OP needs to change himself in ways that will cause her to be attracted to him. No one can make someone attracted to them. The OP can't do anything to make her want him sexually. By working on himself, as well as giving her space, it can create a pull dynamic (as opposed to the push one he is currently using). It can often be effective, particularly when conversations have failed.

If that does not work after a certain point, then other, different action should be considered, including the 180.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

I strongly believe in both pull and some push.

Otherwise you are not able to wait long enough for simply pull to work.
180 is once you have given up... not a strategy for repairing a sexless marriage.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't read it that way at all. Rather, the OP needs to change himself in ways that will cause her to be attracted to him. No one can make someone attracted to them. The OP can't do anything to make her want him sexually. By working on himself, as well as giving her space, it can create a pull dynamic (as opposed to the push one he is currently using). It can often be effective, particularly when conversations have failed.
> 
> If that does not work after a certain point, then other, different action should be considered, including the 180.


You know me, or rather the MAP, so well.

As another metaphor, I'll use my daughter and my mother. They both LOVE cats. If either of them see a stray, they have to pet it. The difference is in their approaches. My daughter runs directly at the cat screaming, "KITTY!!!" My mother opens a can of tuna fish and sits down to wait. My mother has good success. My daughter does not.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Happy Camper....first off, you need to view sex differently. Stop viewing it as something your wife "gives" you. I realize it might take awhile for that to sink in....but really try to understand the fact that your wife doesn't want to be in the "gate keeper of the marital sex" position you have both put her in.

Second, you need to bring it up again, only this time, don't cower away if/when she freaks out. Expect her to speak about your marital sex life like an adult and don't accept anything less than this.

Explain to her that a sexless marriage isn't acceptable and neither is not communicating about it. Also explain that you understand your own contribution to this problem (which was tip-toeing around and acting like sex is a gift from your wife to you, something you have to appease her for and beg for). Explain that from now on, there will be open two way honest communication about sex in your marriage.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Happy Camper....first off, you need to view sex differently. Stop viewing it as something your wife "gives" you. I realize it might take awhile for that to sink in....but really try to understand the fact that your wife doesn't want to be in the "gate keeper of the marital sex" position you have both put her in.
> 
> Second, you need to bring it up again, only this time, don't cower away if/when she freaks out. Expect her to speak about your marital sex life like an adult and don't accept anything less than this.
> 
> Explain to her that a sexless marriage isn't acceptable and neither is not communicating about it. Also explain that you understand your own contribution to this problem (which was tip-toeing around and acting like sex is a gift from your wife to you, something you have to appease her for and beg for). Explain that from now on, there will be open two way honest communication about sex in your marriage.



Yup do that every six months. In between change the marital dynamic.

Its a process... women's minds take a while to turn around...they are not men.
Never apologize for your sex drive.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Happy camper the erotic massage, lusty kisses would only work to turn her on for sex if she wanted sex to start with.

Your wife doesn't.

I have a high desire for my hubby and if he does those things to me I come out in goose bumps and get very turned on because I already want to have sex with him. Anytime. Anyplace.

I must add.... don't let her shout you down and tell you to "shut up", you have a right to discuss this and expect some sort of resolution.
That is not unreasonable. You sound like a very nice man and loving husband and you still will be those things even after you've stood up for yourself.... you might even find (long term) it makes you more attractive.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

I have a couple of suggestions (I have not read through the entire post) 

1. Read "His Needs, Her Needs" together. It may enable some good non-confrontational discussions.

2. Read "The Couple Checkup" together and be sure to take the online assessment.

Many men and women don't understand the differences in intimacy. Women need to first feel intimate in order to desire sex whereas men need sex to feel intimate. Women don't understand that sex is not just getting off for men, but it is the way we feel loved. Here is a good article that may help her to understand the difference:

The Dennis Prager Show

The Dennis Prager Show


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Trying said: "Yup do that every six months."

I say do it every six days.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

I would also suggest download an app to track her menstrual cycle. It can be advantageous to know when she ovulates. I read MMSL primer and it has changed my marriage dramatically.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Explain to her that a sexless marriage isn't acceptable and neither is not communicating about it. Also explain that you understand your own contribution to this problem (which was tip-toeing around and acting like sex is a gift from your wife to you, something you have to appease her for and beg for). Explain that from now on, there will be open two way honest communication about sex in your marriage.


In addition, I would also make sure that your actions align with your words. If you have this talk, but then continue to do all the nice things for her that you always do, her take away will be that what you are saying is just not that important. Be clear that you need to take care of yourself, and that leaves less time for you to attend to her.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"Be clear that you need to take care of yourself, and that leaves less time for you to attend to her."

I disagree with this but it also depends on if you are actually being a loving husband, or if you are just helicoptering her hoping for sex.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

The more pressure you put on her, the more she'll resist. If you do nothing for an extended amount of time & just be a loving supportive spouse, she'll settle in that way. Embrace your "new" relationship instead of fighting it or you'll be miserable. The timeline is something you have control of.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

MrBrains said:


> I would also suggest download an app to track her menstrual cycle. It can be advantageous to know when she ovulates. I read MMSL primer and it has changed my marriage dramatically.


When is the sweet spot?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

woundedwarrior said:


> The more pressure you put on her, the more she'll resist. If you do nothing for an extended amount of time & just be a loving supportive spouse, she'll settle in that way. Embrace your "new" relationship instead of fighting it or you'll be miserable. The timeline is something you have control of.


Yes. The balance even if it is out of wack will become normalized when it's been established. Maybe its the same as the 21 days for a habit rule. Obviously we want longer term results than this.

If the balance is out of wack, it needs to be adjusted through various methods.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

treyvion said:


> When is the sweet spot?


2 weeks and 1 day after her period starts.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

How much of a window do you have and what is enhanced?


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

treyvion said:


> How much of a window do you have and what is enhanced?


5-6 days. That's when she is the hottest to procreate. Its in their DNA. The best time to initiate sex. Most women are on the hunt at this time, although they are not aware of reason.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> "Be clear that you need to take care of yourself, and that leaves less time for you to attend to her."
> 
> I disagree with this but it also depends on if you are actually being a loving husband, or if you are just helicoptering her hoping for sex.


If she was willing to discuss, I would not advise this. However, she is not, for whatever reason. However, her actions are clearly telling him that she is not happy with something (whether it is him or something external). Talking to her does not work, so being clear that this is an actual problem for him (both in word and action) is an important step in communication. If he says it is a problem, but then goes about doing all the normal things he does for her, he is communicating that it is actually no big deal. That will not help him.


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## vegasruby (Apr 30, 2013)

HappyCamper said:


> Thanks for the suggestions.
> 
> I didn't actually think of that stuff as pushy. I like giving massages and she likes them so she gets a rub every other day or so... I didn't think that the occasional massage being a bit more sexy than the 5 or 6 others would be seen as pushy... so thanks for the tip there.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of what PHTlump said. I love my husband more than I did when we got married. We have been married 20 years. I do not want sex very much. If it were up to me it would be once every 4-6 months. When my husband doesn't bug me about sex and leaves me alone I see it as he loves me. Who likes a nag and to be pushed?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

vegasruby said:


> I agree with most of what PHTlump said. I love my husband more than I did when we got married. We have been married 20 years. I do not want sex very much. If it were up to me it would be once every 4-6 months. When my husband doesn't bug me about sex and leaves me alone I see it as he loves me. Who likes a nag and to be pushed?


So what is your deep issue about him?

What would make you enjoy sex with him more?

Or did you settle.


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## vegasruby (Apr 30, 2013)

romantic_guy said:


> Many men and women don't understand the differences in intimacy. Women need to first feel intimate in order to desire sex whereas men need sex to feel intimate. Women don't understand that sex is not just getting off for men, but it is the way we feel loved. Here is a good article that may help her to understand the difference:
> 
> The Dennis Prager Show
> 
> The Dennis Prager Show


The Dennis Prager articles are very good. I bookmarked them. I feel intimate with my husband through conversation. We talk about everything. It does not make me want to have sex with him. Males might think a woman sleeping with them means they love them but it does not mean the sexual act is about love. It is about busting a nut and they would really like to be shown a good time.


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## vegasruby (Apr 30, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> You don't EVER ask... you insist. You are the man she is the woman.


I am the parent and you are the baby. I am the top dog and you are the subordinate. 

Lovely.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

vegasruby said:


> The Dennis Prager articles are very good. I bookmarked them. I feel intimate with my husband through conversation. We talk about everything. It does not make me want to have sex with him. Males might think a woman sleeping with them means they love them but it does not mean the sexual act is about love. It is about busting a nut and they would really like to be shown a good time.


You really need to read up on men and how they view sex, particularly when married or in a LTR. Your statement above could not be more wrong for many men.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

vegasruby said:


> The Dennis Prager articles are very good. I bookmarked them. I feel intimate with my husband through conversation. We talk about everything. It does not make me want to have sex with him. Males might think a woman sleeping with them means they love them but it does not mean the sexual act is about love. It is about busting a nut and they would really like to be shown a good time.


I thought she was talking about a woman's feeling when having sex... Not a mans. Men in meaningful relationships always relate sex and love.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

vegasruby said:


> I am the parent and you are the baby. I am the top dog and you are the subordinate.
> 
> Lovely.


I think of it more like a Leader and the Follower. Or #1 and #2.


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## vegasruby (Apr 30, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> So what is your deep issue about him?
> 
> What would make you enjoy sex with him more?
> 
> Or did you settle.


First, I don't think anything would make me want to have sex with him more often. I doubt even if he was better in bed that it would change things for me. I do orgasm but that doesn't make me want to have sex more often. I enjoyed sex more in the past before my husband. I thought sex was about love for males like it is for women. Once I learned the truth it became just a meaningless activity. I guess we can say ignorance was bliss.


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## vegasruby (Apr 30, 2013)

MrBrains said:


> I think of it more like a Leader and the Follower. Or #1 and #2.


Yeah, the man is the top dog. Man is #1 and woman is #2.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

vegasruby said:


> First, I don't think anything would make me want to have sex with him more often. I doubt even if he was better in bed that it would change things for me. I do orgasm but that doesn't make me want to have sex more often. I enjoyed sex more in the past before my husband. I thought sex was about love for males like it is for women. Once I learned the truth it became just a meaningless activity. I guess we can say ignorance was bliss.


You're wrong about men's view of sex. Clueless really. Maybe he told you that once to make a point, but he was lying.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

vegasruby said:


> First, I don't think anything would make me want to have sex with him more often. I doubt even if he was better in bed that it would change things for me. I do orgasm but that doesn't make me want to have sex more often. I enjoyed sex more in the past before my husband. I thought sex was about love for males like it is for women. Once I learned the truth it became just a meaningless activity. I guess we can say ignorance was bliss.


For many men, there is definitely a love component, particularly in marriage. I think your original understanding was correct.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You're wrong about men's view of sex. Clueless really. Maybe he told you that once to make a point, but he was lying.


+1

Clueless was the word that came to my mind also.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Blue Firefly said:


> +1
> 
> Clueless was the word that came to my mind also.


Or it provides a reason to justify not having sex very often.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> For many men, there is definitely a love component, particularly in marriage. I think your original understanding was correct.


And for many other men, they just see "b00bs, a$$" and want to hit. Doesn't matter if it's a wife. Her character does not matter. This is many men.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

treyvion said:


> And for many other men, they just see "b00bs, a$$" and want to hit. Doesn't matter if it's a wife. Her character does not matter. This is many men.


Sure, for some, particularly young men. But the poster said all men, which is clearly incorrect. It may also be incorrect for her husband. It is certainly incorrect for me.


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## vegasruby (Apr 30, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> You really need to read up on men and how they view sex, particularly when married or in a LTR. Your statement above could not be more wrong for many men.


"Incredulity is certainly the reaction most women have when first being told that a man knows he is loved when his wife gives him her body. The idea that the man she is married to, let alone a man whose intelligence she respects, will to any serious extent measure her love of him by such a carnal yardstick strikes many women as absurd and even objectionable."

What he is saying here is not that men feel the actual sex act is love. He is saying a man feels loved when a woman gives him access to her body. She gives him her body for him to bust a nut. That is the goal and reason for sex. _There is a difference._ He feels loved by her allowing him to use her for his pleasure.


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## vegasruby (Apr 30, 2013)

treyvion said:


> And for many other men, they just see "b00bs, a$$" and want to hit. Doesn't matter if it's a wife. Her character does not matter. This is many men.


Thank you. This is a whole lot of men.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

VR do you have some advice for the OP? Or are just using his thread as a platform for your bitter anti-male views?


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Happy Camper....first off, you need to view sex differently. Stop viewing it as something your wife "gives" you. I realize it might take awhile for that to sink in....but really try to understand the fact that your wife doesn't want to be in the "gate keeper of the marital sex" position you have both put her in.
> 
> Second, you need to bring it up again, only this time, don't cower away if/when she freaks out. Expect her to speak about your marital sex life like an adult and don't accept anything less than this.



I agree.

Getting upset with the other person because it makes us feel bad when they point out that our conduct is hurting them is selfish in the extreme.


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## vegasruby (Apr 30, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You're wrong about men's view of sex. Clueless really. Maybe he told you that once to make a point, but he was lying.


No. This comes from being in the Army for 9 years with a whole lot of men. Lots of talking. Lots of reading. It took years for it to sink in. It was not a happy thing to learn. It sucked. Sex was better when I thought it was all about love and something special between two people. The very first thing ever said to me concerning this was when I was 20. My brother told me that trying to keep a man with sex will not work. Pu$$y is walking around everywhere. No matter how you think sex is this loving bond, it isn't. The guy can find great sex anywhere. It didn't digest more me at the time because I was young. I believed the guy felt about it the same way I did. We were experiencing the same thing... so I thought. Slowly I realized the awful truth.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

vegasruby said:


> "Incredulity is certainly the reaction most women have when first being told that a man knows he is loved when his wife gives him her body. The idea that the man she is married to, let alone a man whose intelligence she respects, will to any serious extent measure her love of him by such a carnal yardstick strikes many women as absurd and even objectionable."
> 
> What he is saying here is not that men feel the actual sex act is love. He is saying a man feels loved when a woman gives him access to her body. She gives him her body for him to bust a nut. That is the goal and reason for sex. _There is a difference._ He feels loved by her allowing him to use her for his pleasure.


A slightly different viewpoint

"Increasingly, experts believe sex is a more emotional experience for men than for women. Men tend to express feelings with actions, not words. Unlike a lot of women, they probably don't have heart-to-heart chats with everyone from their best friend to the bus driver, and they often limit hugs and physical affection to their immediate family.

No wonder they miss sex when it disappears. It's a way for them to be aggressive and manly but also tender and vulnerable. "For some men, sex may be their primary way of communicating and expressing intimacy," says Justin Lehmiller, a Harvard University social psychologist who studies sexuality. Taking away sex "takes away their primary emotional outlet.""​


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

vegasruby said:


> No. This comes from being in the Army for 9 years with a whole lot of men. Lots of talking. Lots of reading. It took years for it to sink in. It was not a happy thing to learn. It sucked. Sex was better when I thought it was all about love and something special between two people. The very first thing ever said to me concerning this was when I was 20. My brother told me that trying to keep a man with sex will not work. Pu$$y is walking around everywhere. No matter how you think sex is this loving bond, it isn't. The guy can find great sex anywhere. It didn't digest more me at the time because I was young. I believed the guy felt about it the same way I did. We were experiencing the same thing... so I thought. Slowly I realized the awful truth.


Compare your viewpoint of your army experience against:

1. Frat boys
2. Multi million dollar business men
3. Christian males as part of the promise keepers
4. Young inexpereienced males
5. Much older men
6. Males from a country with a strict christian influence
7. Countries where polygamy is normal.
8. Countries where your wife is chosen for you, husband is chosen for you

It's all different depending on the group. The Army experience has some norms I don't totally agree with, some of it is due to the age and some is due to the environment. Theirs a high amount of affairs male and female in the Military, especially the Army.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

vegasruby said:


> "Incredulity is certainly the reaction most women have when first being told that a man knows he is loved when his wife gives him her body. The idea that the man she is married to, let alone a man whose intelligence she respects, will to any serious extent measure her love of him by such a carnal yardstick strikes many women as absurd and even objectionable."
> 
> What he is saying here is not that men feel the actual sex act is love. He is saying a man feels loved when a woman gives him access to her body. She gives him her body for him to bust a nut. That is the goal and reason for sex. _There is a difference._ He feels loved by her allowing him to use her for his pleasure.


And I disagree. I (and many men who post here) feel love in the actual act. It is not merely that my wife gives me pleasure, so I love her. I feel love during the act. 

I don't know if the author actually believes your interpretation (in which case he is wrong) or just poorly worded it, but I know that does not apply to me.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

vegasruby said:


> "Incredulity is certainly the reaction most women have when first being told that a man knows he is loved when his wife gives him her body. The idea that the man she is married to, let alone a man whose intelligence she respects, will to any serious extent measure her love of him by such a carnal yardstick strikes many women as absurd and even objectionable."
> 
> What he is saying here is not that men feel the actual sex act is love. He is saying a man feels loved when a woman gives him access to her body. She gives him her body for him to bust a nut. That is the goal and reason for sex. _There is a difference._ He feels loved by her allowing him to use her for his pleasure.


The sex act provides the male and receptive female pleasure. Theres alot more to it than the ejaculation process.


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## vegasruby (Apr 30, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> VR do you have some advice for the OP? Or are just using his thread as a platform for your bitter anti-male views?


Saying love and sex do not go together for men does not mean I am anti-male. If you only knew my life you would realize you are totally wrong. 

I did respond to the OP and tried to help him understand his wife. He said he was clueless and couldn't understand where his wife was at. I responded to that.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

vegasruby said:


> No. This comes from being in the Army for 9 years with a whole lot of men. Lots of talking. Lots of reading. It took years for it to sink in. It was not a happy thing to learn. It sucked. Sex was better when I thought it was all about love and something special between two people. The very first thing ever said to me concerning this was when I was 20. My brother told me that trying to keep a man with sex will not work. Pu$$y is walking around everywhere. No matter how you think sex is this loving bond, it isn't. The guy can find great sex anywhere. It didn't digest more me at the time because I was young. I believed the guy felt about it the same way I did. We were experiencing the same thing... so I thought. Slowly I realized the awful truth.


Defining how all men view sex based on the actions of a bunch of 18-20 years old boys is like defining how all women view sex based on a bunch of 18-20 year old girls view it.

My views on sex changed, as do most people. It changed a lot in my mid-20s. It changed during my relationship with my GF/wife. Have you asked your husband his views?

It is clear you want to believe this for some reason. That does not make it correct.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

vegasruby said:


> No. This comes from being in the Army for 9 years with a whole lot of men.


:lol::rofl::lol::rofl:

That's your source--a bunch of guys sitting around an army barracks talking about their sex lives? Are you that naive?

Men don't talk about sex with other men. They brag about it. They tell stories and act macho. The one thing they DON'T DO is talk about their feelings--their real feelings (unless they want everyone to think they are gay or a pu$$y).

I'm sure you heard a lot of stories, but I'm positive you didn't hear the truth.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

vegasruby said:


> Saying love and sex do not go together for men does not mean I am anti-male. If you only knew my life you would realize you are totally wrong.


You know this depends on the man, right? I'm not bashing you at all, I'm sure you are implying it. For some of us we would prefer to have sex with the one we love. It's a large way how we share and communicate the emotion. Many of us would prefer to have sex with the one we love, but would rather have some sex than none at all.

Other men, do not care. They don't see a reason to love a woman, they think it's just sex, so that's what they do. They leave it to providers like me to take care of women, and sneak around helping these women to have leverage on us and have uncommitted sex with them when allowed.



vegasruby said:


> I did respond to the OP and tried to help him understand his wife. He said he was clueless and couldn't understand where his wife was at. I responded to that.


I think we should respect and at least understand all the viewpoints. We don't have to agree with all of them, but it would be best to get our head out the sand and understand other ways it can be looked at.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Her responses were bizarre. 
Is she angry a lot?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> And I disagree. I (and many men who post here) feel love in the actual act. It is not merely that my wife gives me pleasure, so I love her. I feel love during the act.
> 
> I don't know if the author actually believes your interpretation (in which case he is wrong) or just poorly worded it, but I know that does not apply to me.


The "love" we feel, may be actually acceptance. Acceptance of us, the opposite of rejection. Desire, that their body wants us. Maybe that's what the feeling is?

Is this feeling different for a hot one night stand? Just throwing that out there.


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## vegasruby (Apr 30, 2013)

treyvion said:


> The sex act provides the male and receptive female pleasure. Theres alot more to it than the ejaculation process.


Enlighten me. How is it more than going for orgasm?


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## vegasruby (Apr 30, 2013)

treyvion said:


> You know this depends on the man, right? I'm not bashing you at all, I'm sure you are implying it.


I understand that what was said in the quote from the article is true. I believe many men feel that way. I think it is ridiculous but accept it as fact. Males are wired that way. That does not mean I am anti-male.


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## vegasruby (Apr 30, 2013)

treyvion said:


> The "love" we feel, may be actually acceptance. Acceptance of us, the opposite of rejection. Desire, that their body wants us. Maybe that's what the feeling is?
> 
> Is this feeling different for a hot one night stand? Just throwing that out there.


I think you could be right. It is a feeling of acceptance. You feel wanted.


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## vegasruby (Apr 30, 2013)

Blue Firefly said:


> :lol::rofl::lol::rofl:
> 
> That's your source--a bunch of guys sitting around an army barracks talking about their sex lives? Are you that naive?
> 
> ...


No, I was not sitting around listening how they talked to other guys. I talked with them one on one. They were very open and candid with me. I never put them down. I never told them they were sick. They knew I accepted them as they were. I didn't tell others. I kept their secrets. They trusted me. 

The Army wasn't the only place I learned about men. There was my church, friends, boyfriends of friends, male friends, books, family members and documentaries.

PS. The is another forum board I am on that is male dominated. I am 1 of 5 women on the board. I have learned a whole lot there. Some stuff, if I found out my BF or husband were doing, I would run away fast. I have learned what men do in private. If my son was doing any of that stuff I would be very distressed and worried.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

treyvion said:


> The "love" we feel, may be actually acceptance. Acceptance of us, the opposite of rejection. Desire, that their body wants us. Maybe that's what the feeling is?


I would agree that acceptance is part of it, but I know for me it includes love.



> Is this feeling different for a hot one night stand? Just throwing that out there.


yes. Certainly different than the first time we had sex.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

I'm beginning to understand the wisdom of the saying "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas."


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

vegasruby said:


> Enlighten me. How is it more than going for orgasm?


There was a show on sex, that compared the brain scans of people having sex versus masterbation.

The ones having sex brain regions were lit up more strongly and different parts.

Masterbation does not mimic the entire picture of the sex.

We transfer pheremones when we are close to a receptive partner and this causes some reactions to occur in the brain.

Also did you know that during sex that pain is diminished? It's true, I had a thigh contusion that maid it extremely painful to straighten or bend my thigh, but during the sex act, I could not feel this pain.

We have pleasure centers being affected during sex. Some pleasure during masturbation but it's not the same.

Also the psychology. I guess some females are getting these physical affirmations in other ways, but in other females and many of us males, you don't feel whole without that positive physical affirmation that sex provides.

In alot of us HD's, our LIFE is diminished without sex, and continuous rejection can diminish our sex drive, which also cuts into your motivation and confidence.

Sex is much more than an ejaculation.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

vegasruby said:


> I feel intimate with my husband through conversation. We talk about everything. It does not make me want to have sex with him. Males might think a woman sleeping with them means they love them but it does not mean the sexual act is about love. It is about busting a nut and they would really like to be shown a good time.


Saying that sex, for a married couple, is only about orgasm and not at all about love and intimacy is no different than saying that conversation is only about making noises with your vocal cords and not at all about intimacy.

I mean, you can talk to yourself. You can talk to your cat. You can talk to a stranger. But you say that talking to your husband gives you an intimate connection with him. Obviously, there is more to talking with your husband than making noises in his vicinity. Married men view sex the way you view conversation.

And many women get confused on sex because of the dual nature of the act. Men can use sex to form emotional connections. We can also use sex for nothing more than pleasure. But we can equate that to conversation as well. If you talk to your husband, you feel an emotional connection. If you ask for directions from a stranger, you don't get that connection. But that doesn't mean that talking can never be about emotions. To conclude that would be foolish.


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## vegasruby (Apr 30, 2013)

treyvion said:


> There was a show on sex, that compared the brain scans of people having sex versus masterbation.
> 
> The ones having sex brain regions were lit up more strongly and different parts.
> 
> ...


Sex being a pain reliever did not answer my question.


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## vegasruby (Apr 30, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Because you can take orgasm off the table entirely and the primal interaction is still pleasurable and fulfilling for many.
> 
> There's an entire school of thought called _Coitus reservatus_ (aka karezza) where the object is to remain at the plateau phase of intercourse as long as possible and to avoid ejaculation entirely. There are dozens of books on the subject.
> 
> You said that lots of reading was involved in slowly realizing the awful truth. Where did you read it?


You are talking Tantra? Yeah, that is not your typical sex and most here are dealing with basic sex. Tantra sex is a whole other thing.

I already said the books I have read and found to be very good and accurate but all I got was crap. I am not going to get into that again. I have also read the ones people on here seem to deem acceptable. At least I have read them all. Some I didn't find helpful but I never called them junk like they did mine. I bet many of them never even read them! Ha!


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

vegasruby said:


> I already said the books I have read and found to be very good and accurate but all I got was crap. I am not going to get into that again. I have also read the ones people on here seem to deem acceptable. At least I have read them all. Some I didn't find helpful but I never called them junk like they did mine. I bet many of them never even read them! Ha!


I understand. 

At the same time though most people (Perhaps even yourself) believe that a first person perspective is far more authoritative than second and third person perspectives.

The proof lies in the fact that men and women often don't understand each other at all. Forums like this probably wouldn't exist if they did.


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