# Trying new things to spice things up



## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Curious what everyone take is on couples being open to trying new things, sexually, in their relationship. As the higher drive partner, I often am interested in trying new things in our sex life. My wife seems ok to try new things, but seems to often raise concern about anything that is directing our attention away from each other. For example, I think it is fun to watch steamy movies together, but sometimes my wife will say she feels "used" if we get turned on by a movie and then have sex. She will say "you got turned on by watching other people". She admits she can also get turned on seeing sex, but prefers not to watch steamy movies (or at least most of the time she prefers not to). 

I struggle with this some. She is not wrong when she says that I got turned on from the movie, but it is in no way saying that she does not turn me on. For me, it is just the idea of novelty and enjoying getting turned on. My wife and I often get into ruts when there is not a ton of passion in our sex life, and as the higher drive partner I often seek out seeing sex (on TV/movies/porn), reading about sex, talking about it. I do not get a ton of sexual expression from my wife outside of the act itself.

I also enjoy her and I trying new things (new sex toy, sex somewhere different, etc). She is no opposed, but will sometimes comment that "you always want something new, and what we have is never enough". The truth is, I find my wife very sexually attractive, she turns me on, I enjoy the sex we do have, but I have a higher drive than her and a more active sexual mind. 

To be honest, with her having the lower drive of the two of us, I would have thought spicing things up would be beneficial for her as well, but she seems less interested in that and would be fine with vanilla sex most of the time. 

Any thoughts from anyone?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Yeah. I'm a sexual person and I wouldn't be into watching steamy movies to get turned on before having sex with my partner, either.

It sounds like you aren't spicing things up in a way SHE enjoys.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Yeah. I'm a sexual person and I wouldn't be into watching steamy movies to get turned on before having sex with my partner, either.
> 
> It sounds like you aren't spicing things up in a way SHE enjoys.


I am sure you are right. I am suggesting ideas that I would like. 
The challenge...she does not suggest any ideas herself, and when asked has no suggestions. She leaves it to me (as the higher drive partner) to suggest new ideas, but then may choose that none of them are very interesting. That is her prerogative, but puts me in a tough spot.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

So you are saying--- it puts you in a tough spot because she is more vanilla than you?

Has she always been more vanilla than you?

Do you think her basic sexual personality is going to change?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Does her life still exist in mommy mode or perhaps your children are older?

If her emotional cup is being filled with babies/friends/coworkers then perhaps her sexuality lays slightly dormant without the need for much attention.

Generalization:
As a man one of the most difficult things is to get a wife to understand that physical bonding is the way in which we express and take in the fulfillment of being loved.

Edit: Most of the things you listed are just symptoms of your differences.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Livvie said:


> So you are saying--- it puts you in a tough spot because she is more vanilla than you?
> 
> Has she always been more vanilla than you?
> 
> Do you think her basic sexual personality is going to change?


Yes, I often feel that her being more vanilla leaves some of the fun out of it. As other stated to me, is likely just part of our differences...


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Mr.Married said:


> Does her life still exist in mommy mode or perhaps your children are older?
> 
> If her emotional cup is being filled with babies/friends/coworkers then perhaps her sexuality lays slightly dormant without the need for much attention.
> 
> ...


Not in mommy mode. Our youngest child is 17, so fairly independent and doing his own thing. My wife actually seems to like sex more than she did in the past, but would always choose no frills PIV and that is it. She is open to other things, but no real passion about it. Her ideal sex is always PIV...no foreplay, not much build up outside the bedroom prior. I would prefer spicing things up, and would be happy to do new things that SHE was interested in, but she has zero suggestions and when I ask, she seems bummed that I asked. She feels my asking means I am not happy with the current sex and her feelings get hurt.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Being 'vanilla' is not the same thing as being in a relationship where sexual interest isn't reciprocal.

One can want 'normal' sex and still make it interesting. One can be a low desire partner and still offer suggestions about what's genuinely pleasing. 

Leaving sex up to one person is an excuse, and people who don't want to put in any effort shouldn't get married.



Livvie said:


> So you are saying--- it puts you in a tough spot because she is more vanilla than you?
> 
> Has she always been more vanilla than you?
> 
> Do you think her basic sexual personality is going to change?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

minimalME said:


> Leaving sex up to one person is an excuse, and people who don't want to put in any effort shouldn't get married.


Leaving sex up to one person is not an excuse, but people who don't want to put in any effort shouldn't get married to anyone who expects it.

It's not about who you are, but with whom you are compatible.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

This is ridiculous. 🙄



Cletus said:


> Leaving sex up to one person is not an excuse, but people who don't want to put in any effort shouldn't get married to anyone who expects it.
> 
> It's not about who you are, but with whom you are compatible.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

minimalME said:


> This is ridiculous. 🙄


My wife will tell you exactly what she finds genuinely pleasing. 

It's so vanilla Ben and Jerry don't have a name for it. Is that lazy? No, she will put in plenty of effort in making sure that doing that limited menu is as fun as she can make it. Which to someone less vanilla, like our OP here, will always find boring and constraining.

The fault isn't with his wife. It is their compatibility. 



Married_in_michigan said:


> I would prefer spicing things up, and would be happy to do new things that SHE was interested in, but she has zero suggestions and when I ask, she seems bummed that I asked. She feels my asking means I am not happy with the current sex and her feelings get hurt.


She's communicating quite clearly how she feels about this. Unless she is required to feel differently to be a good sexual partner, that's not lazy. It's honest. She has no suggestions probably because there is nothing missing from their sex life, from her perspective. She lacks sexual imagination, and doesn't find most of his suggestions to be enjoyable. 

There is no blame to be put on anyone here other than ensure that you find the right lid for your pot when you enter a sexual relationship.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Not in mommy mode. Our youngest child is 17, so fairly independent and doing his own thing. My wife actually seems to like sex more than she did in the past, but would always choose no frills PIV and that is it. She is open to other things, but no real passion about it. Her ideal sex is always PIV...no foreplay, not much build up outside the bedroom prior. I would prefer spicing things up, and would be happy to do new things that SHE was interested in, but she has zero suggestions and when I ask, she seems bummed that I asked. She feels my asking means I am not happy with the current sex and her feelings get hurt.


Sounds to me that your in not that bad of a position. How much of y’all physical touch is nonsexual? Do y’all touch intimately without the expectation of sex ?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Just my personal opinion - 'compatibility' is also an excuse.

Very, very few people will find a mate who is everything (100%) they want.

I simply don't think that's realistic or reasonable.

I don't care how many questions you ask or how much sex you have prior to marriage. People change.

If your wife (the person you chose to marry) enthusiastically gives you the best sex she can, and that's a disappointment to you, then perhaps your lack of contentment/thankfulness is the problem.

If you find her boring and constraining, then perhaps pornography and comparing sex lives online (or with your buddies) should be limited or completely done away with.



Cletus said:


> My wife will tell you exactly what she finds genuinely pleasing.
> 
> It's so vanilla Ben and Jerry don't have a name for it. Is that lazy? No, she will put in plenty of effort in making sure that doing that limited menu is as fun as she can make it. Which to someone less vanilla, like our OP here, will always find boring and constraining.
> 
> The fault isn't with his wife. It is their compatibility.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Mr.Married said:


> Sounds to me that your in not that bad of a position. How much of y’all physical touch is nonsexual? Do y’all touch intimately without the expectation of sex ?


yes, quite a bit actually.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Married_in_michigan said:


> To be honest, with her having the lower drive of the two of us, I would have thought spicing things up would be beneficial for her as well, but she seems less interested in that and would be fine with vanilla sex most of the time.
> 
> Any thoughts from anyone?


Well, it seems you thought wrong.

Don't think I don't have empathy for you man, 'cause I have a surplus. 

Now you get to decide if you can find a way to share equally in the pain of incompatibility - if you can find a way to not feel the almost automatic guilt associated with taking sexual pleasure from making your partner uncomfortable. A skill I would not be surprised to find that you cannot develop. 

Just let's be very clear here - you will almost certainly not change her to your liking. That task is will nigh impossible unless you are willing to leave and she is unwilling to lose you over this. Even then, resentment is sure to follow.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

A couple things...

When you keep talking about wanting to try new things, this will make her feel like your unhappy with your sex life. No matter what you say, she will feel like your not happy. And if she is trying, and you keep suggesting new things... that’s a recipe for resentment and for her to just want to give up entirely. 

From my own personal experience... when I feel empowered and sexy it boosts my confidence and self esteem and makes me feel like I can take over the world. When a man is full of moans and compliments it makes me want to please him more, gets me excited to have sex etc. when a man is full of suggestions... no matter what it makes me feel stupid and bad at sex, and that clearly your unhappy. 
My point is, Nothing is better than feeling like your your parents best sex. And no one or no thing compares. But when you’re watching porn, and movies and all these things it makes us feel bad. 

My suggestion is, stop suggesting things to her. Stop watching steamy movies. If you want to spice things up, do it. But don’t talk to her about it. Make it spontaneous. And do NOT do things you know she won’t like. 

And let me just say that it’s not the toys and positions and things that make sex good, it’s the passion. It’s the hair grabbing, staring into each other’s eyes, whispering harder, or yes right there. You get my point? It’s the people that make sex good, not the toys. Toys and such are fun.... with people who are passionate and into it,


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Girl_power said:


> My suggestion is, stop suggesting things to her. Stop watching steamy movies. If you want to spice things up, do it. But don’t talk to her about it. Make it spontaneous. And do NOT do things you know she won’t like.


Just make sure that your wife is of the personality type that prefers to be surprised. This behavior puts my woman into immediate fight or flight mode.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> A couple things...
> 
> When you keep talking about wanting to try new things, this will make her feel like your unhappy with your sex life. No matter what you say, she will feel like your not happy. And if she is trying, and you keep suggesting new things... that’s a recipe for resentment and for her to just want to give up entirely.
> 
> ...


Damn you girls can always get straight to the point while I’m trying to figure out how to say it 🤣🤣🤣😁

My wife’s response is exactly as you put it ....


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> To be honest, with her having the lower drive of the two of us, I would have thought spicing things up would be beneficial for her as well, but she seems less interested in that and would be fine with vanilla sex most of the time.
> 
> Any thoughts from anyone?


You are probably up against the dynamic of your efforts likely making your wife feel increasingly inadequate. I would suggest toning it down and allowing things to be natural for the majority of the time (perhaps introducing a little novelty here and there). 

A good question to ask yourself is how keeping things natural can be very novel for you and yet very simple for the wife? 

Coconut oil is very natural! Sometimes one can have an accident and put way too much coconut oil, you know because it is a learning process! Such a simple mistake! 

Badsanta


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Massage is a awesome gateway to other play. Yes coconut oil is great. Cold pressed all natural from Amazon


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Just make sure that your wife is of the personality type that prefers to be surprised. This behavior puts my woman into immediate fight or flight mode.


Well there is a big difference between spontaneous sex in the shower, versus a spontaneous finger in the ass. You need to know your wife’s limits and comforts. 

We want you to take the lead. But when you start doing crazy stuff that you know we don’t like, we get more reserved and our trust goes out the window when you start doing things that you know we won’t like.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

@Girl_power is hitting on some big points. There was a time when I would have said my wife was vanilla as well. I have learned that the problem was I didn’t understand how to activate her sexuality. Getting her to be more spicy wasn’t about asking her about, getting permission for, trying to describe why, or anything like that. It was about making her feel safe, knowing she couldn’t “fail” at sex, knowing I desired her, and her falling into my pursuit. My wife will do pretty much anything these days but knows she is not responsible for the permission of it. It’s hard to explain but I think she enjoys that I have the accountability for her sexuality.
My wife doesn’t want to talk about it much... she just wants it done to her without being responsible for it.

Does that make sense???


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

badsanta said:


> You are probably up against the dynamic of your efforts likely making your wife feel increasingly inadequate.


Funny how when the spouse telling you that you are making them feel inadequate about sex has zero problem suggesting we need to “spice up” our lifestyle with upgraded car/house/vacations/toys/standard of living. That puts pressure on me and makes me feel inadequate for my breadwinning. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

I feel your pain. And the answers always kill me. Surprise her, but make sure she likes it first, but don't mention it or she'll feel inadequate. Somehow this is the only time you're not supposed to talk with your spouse about your feelings.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Mr.Married said:


> Damn you girls can always get straight to the point while I’m trying to figure out how to say it 🤣🤣🤣😁
> 
> My wife’s response is exactly as you put it ....


Maybe because 'you girls' understand the wife more than the men on here


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

aaarghdub said:


> Funny how when the spouse telling you that you are making them feel inadequate about sex has zero problem suggesting we need to “spice up” our lifestyle with upgraded car/house/vacations/toys/standard of living. That puts pressure on me and makes me feel inadequate for my breadwinning.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Not the same issue. Sounds crappy and entitled, why are you still in the relationship?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Any thoughts from anyone?


Watching porn with your wife as a thing to spice up your sex life, for the most part is counterproductive. Since watching pornography together is a mostly passive act (not spicy), which also diverts attention away from each other.

If you're hoping to improve your sex life with your wife. You would do well to listen to your wife, by concentrating your efforts in sexual actions towards her and you when she is aroused, that are physically present and shared in the moment.

That said if you really want some decent advice, you'll need to be more forthcoming on what you actually want your wife to do and how you have approached such things in detail.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Not the same issue. Sounds crappy and entitled, why are you still in the relationship?


Actually they are and was pointed out by our counselor in MC. Women DO put pressure on the guy if they are the primary breadwinner and she is not working.

My point is there is a double-standard. If I make the case to spice things up, she feels pressured and has to make a lot of effort but disagrees because in her mind there is nothing wrong. I’m being selfish. Contrast that with a major feel-good purchase. If I feel we don’t need a brand new house and I’ll be on the hook for prepping it, repairing it, closing, etc yet have no motivation but she keeps telling me how bad she wants it. It’s the same thing.

You can replace house with lingerie... same thing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

aaarghdub said:


> Actually they are and was pointed out by our counselor in MC. Women DO put pressure on the guy if they are the primary breadwinner and she is not working.
> 
> My point is there is a double-standard. If I make the case to spice things up, she feels pressured and has to make a lot of effort but disagrees because in her mind there is nothing wrong. I’m being selfish. Contrast that with a major feel-good purchase. If I feel we don’t need a brand new house and I’ll be on the hook for prepping it, repairing it, closing, etc yet have no motivation but she keeps telling me how bad she wants it. It’s the same thing.
> 
> ...


I agree. 

And just like a lot of men don’t realize constantly talking to their wife about spicing things up makes them feel bad. Women also don’t realize talking about getting new things and upgrades makes their husband feel bad. 
That’s why we communicate. That’s why we always try to learn the ins and outs of our partner.

Relationships shouldn’t be tit for tat though. Then you guys will forever be against each other.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

aaarghdub said:


> Actually they are and was pointed out by our counselor in MC. Women DO put pressure on the guy if they are the primary breadwinner and she is not working.
> 
> My point is there is a double-standard. If I make the case to spice things up, she feels pressured and has to make a lot of effort but disagrees because in her mind there is nothing wrong. I’m being selfish. Contrast that with a major feel-good purchase. If I feel we don’t need a brand new house and I’ll be on the hook for prepping it, repairing it, closing, etc yet have no motivation but she keeps telling me how bad she wants it. It’s the same thing.
> 
> ...


No, it really isn't the same thing. 

Your wife demanding expensive things and demanding you pay for them, while not contributing at all, herself, is crappy and entitled (like I already commented) and makes me wonder why you continue to stay with such a terrible person and/or why you don't just blow off her insane demands..

It's not at all, though, like a man who has a nice sex life with his wife (wife who is not acting crappy and entitled at all) who wants to "spice" things up by watching porn or steamy movies when that's not anything that is actually a turn on to his wife. 

It's beyond being as different as apples and oranges. Those two scenarios are in different universes.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Married_in_michigan said:


> My wife seems ok to try new things, but seems to often raise concern about anything that is directing our attention away from each other.


She's given you the key. Sex to her is not about the mechanics and trappings. It is about the emotional connection. The way you're approaching sex is too mechanical for her and makes her feel that any woman would do for you hence her feeling 'used' comment. Some couples get off on circus sex where people like your wife actually value sex as an expression of love.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I think all the complaints about “vanilla sex” are from people that either aren’t creative enough to make it fantastic- or have watched so much porn they’re stuck in fantasy land where sex has to be a carnival show to be enjoyable.

I mean there are still a million variations in foreplay and other things such that a conclusion via missionary style is still perhaps the greatest and most enjoyable of all sex acts.

Throw out the porn and learn to just focus your mind and all of your senses on your wife. Frankly, I don’t see how you could be dissatisfied with that. If you are, there’s something wrong with YOU, not her. Of course this presumes she is a normal attractive woman who loves you, can respond, and digs you physically.

If a man gives up masturbation he will also learn one important truth and that is: every moment with your wife is TRULY, a gift from God.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Livvie said:


> No, it really isn't the same thing.
> 
> Your wife demanding expensive things and demanding you pay for them, while not contributing at all, herself, is crappy and entitled (like I already commented) and makes me wonder why you continue to stay with such a terrible person and/or why you don't just blow off her insane demands..
> 
> ...


Men can demand different sex the wife doesn’t like. Women can demand new things and cars and houses. 

Women can suggest an upgrade on her car, or their bathroom. Men can suggest spicing up their sex life. 

Your being incredible biased by your choice in words. 

Being entitled... thinking you deserve anything is never good. But we are talking about feelings. How it makes me feel when my partner constantly talks about spicing up our sex life. It makes me feel inadequate. It makes me feel like he is not happy with our sex life. 
It makes him feel inadequate when his wife wants new things. It makes him feel like he is not providing good enough, like she is unhappy with the life they created. 


We are talking about how something makes you feel.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Given your lack of response to myself and others in this discussion @Married_in_michigan while you continue to post elsewhere, it's pretty clear you're not looking for solutions to your problems at all. So with that being the case, why do you bother posting about your woes in the first place?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

My entire world changed the day I accepted the fact that people are aroused and find stimulation and pleasure in many things and many people that are not solely focused on missionary PIV with only one person forever and ever. 

My wife finds other men and women attractive and gets sexual arousal from other people whether it is watching glamorous movie stars/rock stars/ pro athletes or watching porn or socializing and engaging in conversations flirtation etc in real life.

I am a healthy, vigorous man; I like women and appreciate their beauty and sexuality and sensuousness.

Those are simply facts. I am not her end-all-be all source of sexual arousal and she is not mine. 

The day I accepted and embraced that fact, changed my life forever. 

Human sexuality is not focused on one single person. I expands across the cosmos and encompasses a billion different things.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Personal said:


> Given your lack of response to myself and others in this discussion @Married_in_michigan while you continue to post elsewhere, it's pretty clear you're not looking for solutions to your problems at all. So with that being the case, why do you bother posting about your woes in the first place?


Sorry...did not mean to go quiet on this post. I actually carefully read each and every reply. I just did not always see a need to respond. Maybe I should to at least express thanks to the person providing some advice. 

I found in general, the responses feel into a few categories:

1. The advise was good, and I need to soak it in and decide what it means to me
2. Some advise was good, but not applicable to my situation..due to parts of my marriage dynamics that I could not articulate in the original post. I get why the person responded the way they did, and when a look at the issue from the outside, I see why they say what the say, but its not exactly a fit in my situation. 
3. Some responses were very one sided...only about what I should do to make my wife happy. I am 100% in agreement that marriage is a two way street and that my wife should be happy and fulfilled, but I also expect a fulfilling sex life for myself, which includes some expectations from my partner (even if that is considered selfish). 


In summary, for me, my sex life needs to include a fair amount of eroticism, sexual energy, horny sex. I also know my wife very, very well. We have been together for many years. I feel stuck, that I see a difference in how my wife actually responds sexually to what she wants and expresses as an ideal. 

My hopes when I post in TAM, is to learn from all the people who respond and try to understand how I apply that to my marriage.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> She's given you the key. Sex to her is not about the mechanics and trappings. It is about the emotional connection. The way you're approaching sex is too mechanical for her and makes her feel that any woman would do for you hence her feeling 'used' comment. Some couples get off on circus sex where people like your wife actually value sex as an expression of love.


Emotional connection is a great thing...no argument, BUT...for me sex also needs to include eroticism, exploring, novelty, energy, etc.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

I think that's awesome that you're willing to try new things. I would not be opposed to any of it. Why is she freaking out over steamy movies? She shouldn't be so uptight. Let her know that you find her so sexually attractive, etc....then have a talk about her turn ons...what gets her in the mood, and then try it. Maybe even visit a sex shop, they have a ton of stuff, outfits, etc. Maybe that would be a fun thing to try if she's open to it.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

GC1234 said:


> I think that's awesome that you're willing to try new things. I would not be opposed to any of it. Why is she freaking out over steamy movies? She shouldn't be so uptight. Let her know that you find her so sexually attractive, etc....then have a talk about her turn ons...what gets her in the mood, and then try it. Maybe even visit a sex shop, they have a ton of stuff, outfits, etc. Maybe that would be a fun thing to try if she's open to it.


She has no issue talking about what turns her on, and she does get turned on from steamy movies, but she does not think it is ok. She has some guilt and shame that come into play. We do have a ton of sex toys, but that also has become an issue. Not related to this thread, but my wife feels "bad" that she needs a vibrator to orgasm (although I have zero issue with it), so she wants less sex toys involved. 

The bottom line...the things that turn my wife on, also are things that she feels are "wrong", so her idea is to to avoid and just live with not being very turned on and sex just being something about being close, but leaves me in a sex life that is not very exciting and often lacks eroticism and sexual energy. 

I know EXACTLY what turns my wife on, and she gladly admits and agrees about it, but she intentionally wants to avoid these things. She keeps hoping our sex life can be fine, even if she represses her sexual self. She is relying on the hopes that feeling close and physical pleasure will be enough to carry the sex life. That does not work for me. The part going on "between the ears" is key to me


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

Married_in_michigan said:


> She has no issue talking about what turns her on, and she does get turned on from steamy movies, but she does not think it is ok. She has some guilt and shame that come into play. We do have a ton of sex toys, but that also has become an issue. Not related to this thread, but my wife feels "bad" that she needs a vibrator to orgasm (although I have zero issue with it), so she wants less sex toys involved.
> 
> The bottom line...the things that turn my wife on, also are things that she feels are "wrong", so her idea is to to avoid and just live with not being very turned on and sex just being something about being close, but leaves me in a sex life that is not very exciting and often lacks eroticism and sexual energy.
> 
> I know EXACTLY what turns my wife on, and she gladly admits and agrees about it, but she intentionally wants to avoid these things. She keeps hoping our sex life can be fine, even if she represses her sexual self. She is relying on the hopes that feeling close and physical pleasure will be enough to carry the sex life. That does not work for me. The part going on "between the ears" is key to me


Why does she feel ashamed about what she wants?


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

GC1234 said:


> Why does she feel ashamed about what she wants?


Her upbringing and religious guilt


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

I will share an analogy that came up a few years ago in MC


My wife has vocalized that the ONLY food that she really loves is pizza. Based on her preferences, upbringing, taste buds....pizza is the only food that she actually gets excited about. (imprinting she has no power to change)
She eats other foods, but there is no emotional response, they may taste ok, fill her up, provide fuel for her body....but not something that generates any anticipation
My wife has decided that desiring pizza, or eating it....is wrong. She is wrong for liking it and wrong if she thinks about it, and wrong if she eats it
We have then decided that eating a meal is sacred to our marriage, and that you only eat a meal with your spouse....you do not every enjoy a meal with anyone else
Since pizza is wrong, I (her husband), shall also not ever eat pizza, should not express interest in pizza, and for SURE, should never encourage my wife to think about, like, or eat pizza.
Again, even with all that is said above, pizza is still the only food that sparks any real interest for my wife, although the interest in pizza is wrong.
Wife tells me that we will still eat meals together, and even fairly often, but they will be more about just fuel for our bodies, maybe not bad, but we will stay clear of the really good stuff (pizza), as well as not even talk about how we actually like and want pizza. We will accept that we just don't have meals that are our real cravings, and we settle for mediocre meals. 
Obviously, since it is a sacred part of our marriage, I also do not have any exciting meals with anyone else. I just accept that meals are never something we enjoy to the fullest extent, and we never really get to be excited about meals (if its not pizza, not likely to generate any excitement). 
I ask my wife to try new foods (Thai, Mexican, etc) and maybe find another food that she LOVES, and is "ok to like and eat", but everything I suggest has no appeal. She will try it, but does nothing. I then bring up again pizza, but makes her upset that I would suggest she do something she does not like.
I realize, her imprinting is beyond her control. She loves pizza and not many other foods. I can often every food on earth, but pizza is what she likes, but pizza=wrong


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Are you the member whose wife will only have sex in the closet?


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Are you the member whose wife will only have sex in the closet?


no...thats not me. We actually have sex often (which causes some confusion on TAM response to me), and we try new things, use toys, different positions, etc. The issue (which many people tell me is selfish), is that I want 100% of my wife in our marriage. I want her full eroticism, I want sex where she is fully mentally vested and engaged. I want excitement. In my marriage, the only route to that I see, if if we (as a couple) make sex stimulating to both or our sexual selves. if we ignore her "turn on's" (because she feels they are wrong), we are not living to our potential and I feel like I have a "less than" sex life. Maybe it is better than people who have no sex, but I dont compare myself to other. I am looking at my life and my situation.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Have you considered a sex therapist who is well versed in the Bible? A female therapist may be able to help your wife deprogram/reprogram herself. 

I'm sure the food thing will prove to be an advantage in helping her keep her weight under control; but, it sure makes life boring. God never said we couldn't enjoy our lives.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

So if I am reading this correctly, you want someone that -
-has more spontaneous desire and is more horny and passionate when it comes to sex.

is more aroused by a wider variety of things and embraces novelty and variety.
is aroused by and comfortable with visual eroticism ie porn, steamy movies etc and has no shame or reservation about it.
is uninhibited and less anxious about their desires and has no shame or reservation in embracing or expressing their desires.
-is more assertive and has no reservation in pursuing their desires with you.
-is not so preoccupied with "emotional connection" between the two of you and more open to being aroused by outside factors that don't necessarily have to be about your emotional connection but can be just for the sake of arousal and stimulation and pleasure itself. 
- excited to try new things and explore new pleasures and expand the sexual repetoire and not have any shame or inhibition or fear of that. 

I can go on but I think I am getting the gist of it. 

The catch here is the person being described above is a DUDE. If those are the things you are really wanting, you are basically describing male sexuality. 

People who are aroused by external factors, are openly expressive and assertive in their desires and have no shame, fear or inhibition of their desires and fully embrace novelty and variety and have no shame or fear associated with that, usually have a penis. 

One of that challenges that we all have (male and female) is on a certain primal level we want a partner that is the opposite gender reflection of ourselves. We want a partner that is like us but carries the plumbing of the other sex. 

The problem there though is boys are boys and girls are girls. we are not mirror images of each other with different naughty bits even though at times we like to think we are. 

If you want someone with a primarily masculine sexuality, you may need to either turn bi/gay or go poking around the truck stop looking for Large Marge in an 18-wheeler (hey, I'm not knocking it. the most dynamic and passionate lover I have ever been with was a female OTR trucker who is now in a same-sex marriage with another woman) 

But if you are going to want a female sex partner, you're going to have to learn to adapt and work with female sexuality.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Have you considered a sex therapist who is well versed in the Bible? A female therapist may be able to help your wife deprogram/reprogram herself.
> 
> I'm sure the food thing will prove to be an advantage in helping her keep her weight under control; but, it sure makes life boring. God never said we couldn't enjoy our lives.


over the last 12 years, we have seen 5 different MC, two of which were sex therapist (specifically). Unfortunately, neither were very biblical versed and took a direct stance against that, which caused my wife to quickly lock up about the subject. She just wrote them off as not understanding the importance of her beliefs.

Part of what is so difficult for me, is that after a ton of research (like many of us on TAM do about sex, as it is an area of great interest to us), I am living with a firm belief (at least currently), that human sexuality has some level of imprinting that we cannot control. We can abstain from something we enjoy with will power, but we cannot convince ourselves to get turned on by one thing versus another. We may have natural changes over our life and phases we go through, but it is not consciously controlled. 

For example, I have no sexual turn on about thinking about getting a blow job. I can see it, think about it, hear someone talking about it, but it does not cause any excitement for me. On the other hand, a woman masturbating will get me going every time, with almost no exception.

If I decided that being turned on by women masturbating was wrong, that does not mean I can make my subconscious stop being aroused by it. I can choose to avoid it, and try to distract myself if I think about it, but I cannot force my mind to react different to it. In the same way, I dont think I can convince myself to get turned on by a blowjob, no matter how much I may tell myself I should. Just does not work that way. 

It adds to my perception of this issue, that the things my wife does get turned on by, are very "normal" mainstream stuff that 100's or articles would put in the top ten things many, many women get turned on by...so therefor not things can agree are "odd" or justify such negative feels about. With that said, she is her own person an entitled to feel how she feels, but it leaves me feeling that I live a lesser sex life because of it. Is that selfish on my part.....yes, but it is still my truth. 

Many people tell me to just be happy with what I do have, and its better than many others. That probably is true, but like anything else, it is not so easy to actually accept that emotionally. Logically yes, emotionally no.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> So if I am reading this correctly, you want someone that -
> -has more spontaneous desire and is more horny and passionate when it comes to sex.
> 
> is more aroused by a wider variety of things and embraces novelty and variety.
> ...


so.....I often ponder this and some days I would agree completely with your assessment, then other days I feel that society tells us that your model is the norm and the reality, but its cultural conditioning and not really the way men and women work. Since this has been a hot topic for many years for me, I have been on a TON of forums, blogs, group discussions, MC, etc, and they all very on if the majority of men/women actually fit into these ways of thinking about sex or not.

I also have met multiple women (not just a couple), who would not agree at all, and are very sexual.

I also had a very great, but also complicated situation in my marriage that caused some great things and some anguish. My wife (on her own accord), took testosterone for nearly 12 months in 2018/2019. Everything was 100% different. Now...that leads to your theory....pump her full of testosterone and he sexual self will gravitate more towards that of a "typical" male, but it was very remarkable to see her full sexual self. Some argue that is was not herself, since she was on hormones, but my detailed study of hormones seem to be that they enable, but dont actually change the mental inter-workings. They may make you think more about sex, but do not change what you do or do not like about sex...more about making it front of mind more often. 

With no pressure from me, and on her own, she started testosterone again this week (after being off for 10 months or so). Will be interesting to see the dynamic that plays out


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> In summary, for me, my sex life needs to include a fair amount of eroticism, sexual energy, horny sex. I also know my wife very, very well. We have been together for many years. I feel stuck, that I see a difference in how my wife actually responds sexually to what she wants and expresses as an ideal.


So you want more and feel stuck, yet you're still terribly lijght on sharing any specific details.

Absent you addressing specifics of what you want and explaining in detail how you approach bringing up each of those new things, and much more related to your interactions regarding sex with your wife. I can't share my experience in very specific ways which may help you, because I don't know enough to help in detail.

To be frank I have decades of experience through a few ongoing sexual relationships including two marriages, of successfully encouraging and generating sexual desire. In those women to try new things sexually, including doing things that some think are more extreme sexually.

For example 2nd wife who I have been with for over 24 years now, currently share the following sexual activities amongst others:

Anal sex for her, including ejaculating in her behind. She takes my penis in her mouth after it has been in her back door, she rims me and gives me prostate massages. She lets me ejaculate on her face, in her mouth or anywhere else I like. She puts my testicles in her mouth, she swallows my semen while having her finger in my behind. I fist her vagina past my wrist and can get four fingers into her behind for anal play. I give her golden showers and pee in her mouth, We sometimes look at porn together, we also sometimes make our own porn. She flashes me (sometimes wearing no knickers) when we'e out and about and alone, we sometimes share sex together in public places if there's nobody about as well. She wears butt plugs for me, and lets me stick other phallic objects inside her. She receives oral sex on her vaginal area and often with some fingers in her back door for good measure. We share lots of vanilla sex, with missionary being a terrific way for her to orgasm frequently from penis in vagina sex. We also sometimes use restraints and sensory deprivation and biting her nipples when she is highly aroused is a thing for her as well.

The thing is none of that, except for the vanilla stuff happens by accident.

When I met my wife she had only recently lost her virginity at close to turning 26. She had never orgasmed through shared sex, and was hesitant to even have a penis in her mouth. Yet I have taken her on that journey which is still changing, because my approach has generated trust and high desire from her.

Of which I have taken other women on similar journeys as wel, and mutually shared as first time experiences all of the same and some more with my ex-wife as well. Such things have been the norm for me, with a variety of different women.

So given that experience I figure I might be able to help you, if I have a better understanding of what you're after, and knew more about what you are doing in detail. So I could then offer you more specific help, that may help you to generate more comfort, trust and high desire from your wife, versus your current approach which is getting you nowhere.

That said if you want a different outcome.You would do well to be open to new ways of thinking, and be prepared to approach such things differently. Of which here's a pro tip, the way you were using porn with your wife, didn't do you or her any favours.

P.S.I just want add that in my marriage, despite all the bells and whistles. Vanilla sex missionary, where we are kissing each others mouths deeply remains the best.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

@Married_in_michigan has your wife ever had an eating disorder?


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Personal said:


> So you want more and feel stuck, yet you're still terribly lijght on sharing any specific details.
> 
> Absent you addressing specifics of what you want and explaining in detail how you approach bringing up each of those new things, and much more related to your interactions regarding sex with your wife. I can't share my experience in very specific ways which may help you, because I don't know enough to help in detail.
> 
> ...


ok....I accept and will write back some more specific details as soon as I can. I appreciate your candor and willingness


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Many people tell me to just be happy with what I do have, and its better than many others. That probably is true, but like anything else, it is not so easy to actually accept that emotionally. Logically yes, emotionally no.


Clearly, you understand the problem intellectually. You just don't yet really believe it down in your gut. 

It took me almost 30 years to really, truly, fully embrace everything you posted above as the actual nature of my wife. The only sad part is that once you stop fighting it inside, even if just a little, then all hope comes crashing down around you. Acceptance, necessary for the long haul, can also be a little grim. But you can bounce back, and learn to take what enjoyment is within her capacity without resentment. Knowing that she isn't intentionally doing this to hurt you is a first step, and that one you seem to have well in hand. 

It seems to me you're not quite there yet, if anything in my experience is applicable to yours.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> I agree.
> 
> And just like a lot of men don’t realize constantly talking to their wife about spicing things up makes them feel bad. Women also don’t realize talking about getting new things and upgrades makes their husband feel bad.
> That’s why we communicate. That’s why we always try to learn the ins and outs of our partner.
> ...


I do feel it helps to point out that one hearing their SOs desire for this or that (material item, emotional, sexual, or whatever) shouldn't automatically feel defensive or put upon.

Unless it's been repeated five thousand times with an attitude.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Married_in_michigan said:


> The issue (which many people tell me is selfish), is that I want 100% of my wife in our marriage. I want her full eroticism, I want sex where she is fully mentally vested and engaged. I want excitement. In my marriage, the only route to that I see, if if we (as a couple) make sex stimulating to both or our sexual selves. if we ignore her "turn on's" (because she feels they are wrong), we are not living to our potential and I feel like I have a "less than" sex life. .


I get where you are coming from 100% and am in a very similar circumstance with my wife, although menopause and some medications etc are also impacting her general libido as well. 

Here's the thing I have come to realize about women - almost every thought, action and feeling many women have are tempered with fear, shame, guilt and anxiety. some may have more and some may have a bit less, but it is a driving force for pretty much all. 

One thing that a man other than Woody Allen can't grasp is that a woman could be walking to the mailbox to get the daily mail and she is going to be worried if she is wearing the right shoes and the right clothes to pick up the mail. Will someone see her? Will they think she is walking too fast or too slow and think she is either angry or lazy? Will they think she is being lazy and waited too long to pick up the mail? Will someone try to approach and talk to her at the mailbox but she hasn't done her hair or make up yet? Will there be a big spider inside the mailbox? Will there be an unexpected bill in the mail? Will a serial killer pull up beside her, chloroform her and throw her in a van and take off with her? Who will take care of the kids until the father gets home if she is kidnapped? Speaking of the kids, are the kids falling down the basement steps or setting a fire or choking on a Tootsie Roll right now while she is enjoying the warmth of the sun on her face while getting the mail? Oh why didn't she walk faster so she could get back in the house and prevent the fall/fire/obstructed airway? How could she be so selfish??

This is what goes through a woman's mind when she goes to the mailbox every day. And now you want her to be passionate and uninhibited and adventurous without fear, shame or anxiety in bed??????? If the kid chokes on the Tootsie Roll while she's in the middle of her own orgasm, she'll never be able to live with herself again. 

Life for a woman is all about mitigation of shame and fear and the crux here is very few things in the world generate as much shame and fear as their own sexuality. Yes, a lot of it is imprinting and programming from Aunt Beulah and the church etc but some of it simply comes from owning ovaries and a million years of evolution. A million years ago, who's offspring survived to pass on the genes - the woman who worried about things and was vigilant and protective? Or the one who was into her own pleasure and excitement and got down with whoever she felt like with wild abandon in the moment? 

Again, if you want continuously adventurous, uninhibited, passion with variety and novelty but without shame, guilt or inhibition, you are going to have to turn bi/gay and start getting with dudes. 

But if you want to stick to female partner(s) you're going to have to learn to live with a degree of shame, guilt and fear and much of your life will revolve around trying to mitigate those things as much as possible.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> over the last 12 years, we have seen 5 different MC, two of which were sex therapist (specifically). Unfortunately, neither were very biblical versed and took a direct stance against that, which caused my wife to quickly lock up about the subject. She just wrote them off as not understanding the importance of her beliefs.


I'm an atheist, yet I am not surprised by your wife's reaction at their dismissal of her beliefs. Yet I am surprised by their approach, since validation and acknowledgement is essential in connecting with her.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Again, if you want continuously adventurous, uninhibited, passion with variety and novelty but without shame, guilt or inhibition, you are going to have to turn bi/gay and start getting with dudes


No it doesn't have to be that way. I've had all of that with all of my longer term sexual partners and some others besides.

Of which my ex-wife had a parade of extreme Catholic guilt and hang ups. While my wife had extreme Catholic guilt, hangups and some sexual aversion thrown in for good measure as well (plus she even had some ambitions to become a nun). As had some of my other sexusual partners (except for the nun bit), yet I got past that with all of them.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I want 100% of my wife in our marriage. I want her full eroticism, I want sex where she is fully mentally vested and engaged. I want excitement. In my marriage, the only route to that I see, if if we (as a couple) make sex stimulating to both or our sexual selves. *if we ignore her "turn on's" (because she feels they are wrong),* we are not living to our potential and I feel like I have a "less than" sex life.


You know that right there has potential for tease and denial! 

When I played around with this and forbid my wife to take off her pants, that was the first time she had multiple orgasms! 

Desire needs distance. With some creative "so close but yet so far" ideas of eroticism within the tease and denial realm of strategy, you might have some serious opportunities!

A good topic to read would be tantric sex. Think about using nonsexual intimacy (massage and emotional closeness) to energize someone sexually to their breaking point and then try to push beyond that.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

But be prepared to skip through tantric music suggested by Alexa, save tantric sex music you like. 

That can take a while.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

The soundtrack to movie Burlesque is always an easy win re music, for a while.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I also have met multiple women (not just a couple), who would not agree at all, and are very sexual.
> 
> I also had a very great, but also complicated situation in my marriage that caused some great things and some anguish. My wife (on her own accord), took testosterone for nearly 12 months in 2018/2019. Everything was 100% different. Now...that leads to your theory....pump her full of testosterone and he sexual self will gravitate more towards that of a "typical" male, but it was very remarkable to see her full sexual self. Some argue that is was not herself, since she was on hormones, but my detailed study of hormones seem to be that they enable, but dont actually change the mental inter-workings. They may make you think more about sex, but do not change what you do or do not like about sex...more about making it front of mind more often.
> 
> With no pressure from me, and on her own, she started testosterone again this week (after being off for 10 months or so). Will be interesting to see the dynamic that plays out


I think we are all very sexual. Like I said above, some will have more and some will have less, but all will be impacted to one degree or another. 

But I don't care how horny and sexually liberated and uninhibited a woman is, her sexuality is still tempered by guilt, shame and fear to a degree. If some gal were to completely unleash her sexuality and exorcise all fear and shame , she would be Sheena The Goddess of Power and would rule the world while we all bow down to her greatness. 

Interesting you mention testosterone. My wife also had testosterone injections for about year several years back. It was like living on a porno set. Best year of my life ;-) 

I kind of agree that she did not necessarily reinvent the wheel or anything, but was a lot more assertive and expressive and a lot less inhibited and reserved. She was like..........well, a dude in many ways. She was into porn. she was sending me pictures of her junk. She was watching porn and then telling me the things she was wanting to try from the porn. She would walk into a room and want to get down right then and there. We were in the swinging lifestyle at the time so you can imagine how that played out LOL She even wanted to stick stuff up into me. I agreed to try a finger one time, but quickly discovered not my thang and I had to draw the line there. 

So yeah, in many ways it was like being with a dude that had tits and a jay-jay :-D 

If she's getting the T again, I would advise be patient and see how that plays out and see if she does become more assertive and expressive and less inhibited. 

My further advice would be to not draw any further attention to it and not really say anything about it or put any kind of pressure on her, and rather just let her sexuality play out organically as she does the treatment. If you bug her about it, that will just make her more self conscious of it. Just take it as in comes (no pun intended)


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> No it doesn't have to be that way. I've had all of that with all of my longer term sexual partners and some others besides.
> 
> Of which my ex-wife had a parade of extreme Catholic guilt and hang ups. While my wife had extreme Catholic guilt, hangups and some sexual aversion thrown in for good measure as well (plus she even had some ambitions to become a nun). As had some of my other sexusual partners (except for the nun bit), yet I got past that with all of them.


But yet these are all "EX" partners............


But anyway, I wasn't being literal of course but rather pointing out that the things he wants his wife to be are typically male sexual traits. If women were to suddenly become like dudes, society as we know it would collapse into chaos and ruin.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

so I am going to try to be more transparent and specific:

Been together with my wife for 20+ years. We have three children, but youngest is almost 18, so not in childcare mode at all. 

We are in our mid-40's

We are not overly wealthy, but money is not an issue and no strains around money stuff.

We very, very argue or even have any tiffs about anything other than sex. We have a lot of nonsexual touch, affection, quality time, etc. (not saying its perfect, but I dont think either of us would claim there are other major factors)

There are no health issues, family issues, no history of abuse, trauma, no ill family members, nothing outside that is a major factor is life now, or anytime we have been together. 

We have some type of sexual time together on average 12 times each month. That can include PIV intercourse, oral sex, mutual masturbation,. manual stimulation, some anal play, and any combination. We do try different PIV positions, but tend to go with missionary, her on top, reverse cowgirl, and her favorite (her laying on her belly, and my coming in from behind). Occasionally traditional "doggy style", but not a ton. 

We have sex toys. A few vibrators (both phallic and bullet style), as well as a Womanizer. My wife ONLY orgasms with a vibrator (other than maybe 5 or 6 times in our entire relationship). In 20+ years, she has only had an orgasm without a vibrator during solo masturbation 3 or 4 times. (meaning its not just something within partnered sex, she does not feel she can reach orgasm without vibrator even on her own).

My wife does not solo masturbate often (can go a few months in between). She says she either often just does not need it as often, or she feels if she does masturbate, she will "have her fix" and then not need partnered sex for a while, so she does not do it often (will add some disclaimers in a later section of this post).

I masturbate fairly frequently, but find I dont really enjoy much...just leaves me wanting the real thing. It end sup being more of a "snack: to tide me over

My wife presents as a person with very "reactive" desire. Very rarely horny on her own, but will get worked up after sex starts. I did notice, that she does get somewhat horny when she ovulates (often 13 days or so after the day her period starts, she has one day she is "horny", although it can often be fairly mild. 

My wife is the primary initiator of sex, as I felt so rejected too many times, that I stopped and waited for her to be in the mood. This is difficult, as she is more reactive sexually, so does not lend itself to be the initiator, or causes her to initiate because its been a few days, more than because she is aroused. 

Wife came from a evangelical christian family and is fairly active in the Christian Church. Her spiritual beliefs weigh in a lot on her sexuality

As stated above, once having sex, my wife will normally get aroused physically, and many times mentally, but seems only about 50% mentally (compared to times I have seen her at 200%). 

With vibrator assistance (which we use 99.9% of all sex), wife has orgasm 95% of the time. It sometimes takes some work, but rare to end without one (unless we have both had too much to drink, and sometimes both never finish, but its not an issue as those times we never got far enough along for it to feel pent up).

From the very beginning of our relationship, although she did not discuss or admit, my wife has always gotten very turned on by the idea of her having sex with a woman. She is always only on the receiving end (receiving oral or getting fingered). There have been many occurrences of this turning her on (scene in movie, scene in a book, hearing about it, etc). She denied this for many years, or hid it. I have always known, due to some very obvious events, but only in the last couple years has she been open talking about this. 

She considers herself straight/heterosexual, and finds men sexually attractive, has only dated men, gets turned on by PIV, and feels very confident that she is not bi/lesbian, but when she does fantasize or get really turned on, it is almost always about girl/girl sex. 

For nearly a year in 2018/2019, she tool bioidentical hormones (testosterone injections). She was like a teenage boy. She was constantly horny, masturbated a ton, was all over me, and very verbally open and talkative about her sexual thoughts and desires. During this time, we had many in depth conversations and she basically said, anytime she fantasizes (which she says is not much when she is not on testosterone), is almost always about sex with a woman. She even went as far to say she often thinks about this while the two of us have sex, especially is she is not terribly horny to begin with. It helps her reach orgasm. She feels very guilty about this, as she feels it is wrong. Even while on testosterone, she felt guilty that her mind went to gril/girl sex..and mentioned it a few times. 

Now being off the T therapy, I realized that she likely does not masturbate as much as she would, as she tries to avoid the fantasy and feeling guilty about it

I know some on TAM are going to jump all over this and tell me she is a closet lesbian, but to be very honest...I dont think that is the case. I think it is just that is really happens to turn her on, and not much does it such a strong way.

so...as the high drive partner, I wanted more passion, energy, and excitement, so I have tried to offer porn, steamy netflix, and other lesbian options, knowing it gets her hot, but it makes her feel guilty, so she prefers I not. 

I have offered many non-lesbian sex ideas, and she is open to trying, but never seem to excite her much. She will get aroused, and we have sex, but to get 100% of her and totally engaged only seems to happen when she gets really horny from thinking about girl on girl sex.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> * If *women were to suddenly become like dudes, society as we know it would collapse into chaos and ruin.


''If''......lol, look around, the 60s turned women into men with the sexual liberation movement and, yada, yada, yada, we have chaos and ruin.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> But yet these are all "EX" partners............


No they're not!

I have been with my current (2nd) wife, for a bit over 24 years and been happily married to her for 21+ years so far.

All while we've weathered raising two children together including one wit a terrible mental illness and related metabolic condition. My wife is also a cancer survivor as well, while we've been through many other significant experiences as well.

Yet through all of that we have shared a splendidly rich sex life that has always been evolving and still is without abatement. Despite her not having sex until just before I met her, when she was near 26, with a banner parade of Catholic guilt, hang-ups and sexual aversion.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> ...her favorite (her laying on her belly, and my coming in from behind)


From what I have read the positions in which one partner is facing away from the other are the ones that best facilitate fantasies that are primarily based on partner replacement. 

So if your wife is aroused by the idea of exploring her bi-sexuality but feels that it poses a risk to the marriage and is too shameful, there may not be much you can do about it aside from encouraging/accepting her mentally fantasizing. 

You might want to explore incorporating a blindfold, headphones, and some ASMR recordings that is likely to help trigger her fantasies. I just checked and Spotify actually has a good library for this with one being "ASMR Cherry Crush" you might want to try.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

OnTheFly said:


> ''If''......lol, look around, the 60s turned women into men with the sexual liberation movement and, yada, yada, yada, we have chaos and ruin.


The late 60s/early 70s were a time of social, economic and political change, but women did not become like men. They achieved more social/economic/political rights and equality, but their personas and sexualities are still a long ways from being like men. 

If women become just like men sexually, then executive board meetings will become orgies on the conference room table. Pizza delivery guys will actually be getting laid while delivering pizzas. Dudes will never drive by a woman with a flat on the road because helping her change a flat will always result in at least a BJ. One job opening at a TV cable or satelite company will result in 3,000 applications because every guy will want to be a cable guy because every chick will pay for the cable via a romp in the bedroom after the cable/satelite is hooked up. quarterly reports will all be late because any time the boss asks for the reports to filed, the secretary will say, "you know what'cha gotta do first!" Patients will be dying in hospitals because all of the doctors will be banging it out in the call rooms and all of the nurses will be blowing and giving repeated bed baths to all of the somewhat healthy patients. The automobile industry will change because all of the cars will go back to big bench seats. 

Science and research and technology will come to a screeching halt because women will start actually screwing nerds. 

In essence, nothing would get accomplished because everyone would be screwing all the time.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> No they're not!
> 
> I have been with my current (2nd) wife, for a bit over 24 years and been happily married to her for 21+ years so far.
> 
> ...


My mistake. I thought your reference to wife and exwife were the same person.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Married_in_michigan said:


> so I am going to try to be more transparent and specific:
> 
> Been together with my wife for 20+ years. We have three children, but youngest is almost 18, so not in childcare mode at all.
> 
> ...


My wife was also raised in a very conservative christian family where sex was a very negative and taboo topic. 

But she was also had a pretty strong libido and we had great sexual chemistry. Once she moved out of her parents house at collage age she stopped going to church on her own and got out of that environment and got more into the college party scene, 

I am somewhat spiritual and technically am a bit of a believer but I am not "religious" at all. (Christ himself was not 'religious' and was hung for it, but that's a whole other topic) 

But anyway, where I am going is she got out of that environment and away from those people. 

When we were at about the ten-year mark in our marriage, we started dipping our toes into the swinger lifestyle and started attending swinger clubs and parties and events and many of those people started becoming our friends and associates outside of the bedroom as well as in it. 

There is an old saying that you are the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with. Well when you are around people that are very open and accepting and sex-positive, you tend to naturally become more sex-positive and open minded and accepting of things that are not necessarily part of the religious narrative, 

One of the things my wife swore on her mother's grave that she would never do would be to touch another woman and that she was 110% straight and that she would never under any circumstances ever be sexually attracted to another woman. 

.........yeah, that lasted until that one night she was going down on this one gal that came so hard that she was super sensitive and cause pain and we had to physically pull my wife off of her and tell her to stop. 

My point is what my grandmother always used to say and that is, "you are the company you keep." If you exist around a bunch of church ladies and Aunt Beulahs that tongue-click and shake their heads and scowl at the idea of sex with the lights on in any other position than missionary on a Saturday night, it's going to be a bit of an uphill battle for a well indoctrinated church girl. 

When my wife got out in the real world and was around clean, good looking, well educated, professionals with well adjusted, high achieving children and realized they weren't park perverts and were not depraved sex maniacs and were not disease infected scourges of society that the church ladies would have you believe, she embraced her sexuality and embraced her appreciation and desire for the beauty and sensuality of women and accepted that we are all aroused by and appreciate many things and that sexuality is not a tiny pidgeon hole of one or two sex acts with one person centered on "emotional connection" for our whole lives.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I know some on TAM are going to jump all over this and tell me she is a closet lesbian, but to be very honest...I dont think that is the case. I think it is just that is really happens to turn her on, and not much does it such a strong way.


She is bi-sexual, who wasn't admitting this even to herself until now. Nothing wrong with that.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

badsanta said:


> From what I have read the positions in which one partner is facing away from the other are the ones that best facilitate fantasies that are primarily based on partner replacement.


Nope, not neccessary. They just push the right buttons....


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Married_in_michigan said:


> We have some type of sexual time together on average 12 times each month. That can include PIV intercourse, oral sex, mutual masturbation,. manual stimulation, some anal play, and any combination. We do try different PIV positions, but tend to go with missionary, her on top, reverse cowgirl, and her favorite (her laying on her belly, and my coming in from behind). Occasionally traditional "doggy style", but not a ton.


All right, so pardon me if this offends, but this is starting to sound like someone who has no idea of exactly how good a sex life he has already.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Cletus said:


> All right, so pardon me if this offends, but this is starting to sound like someone who has no idea of exactly how good a sex life he has already.


so.....as I tried to say in one of the above posts, it is all relative. I fall into the trap often of wanting more, and normalizing what I have as not enough. I know...some will say I should just be happy and I have it better than others, but I have actually seen the grass on the other side of the hill...and it is fantastic....and I want it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Married_in_michigan said:


> so.....as I tried to say in one of the above posts, it is all relative. I fall into the trap often of wanting more, and normalizing what I have as not enough. I know...some will say I should just be happy and I have it better than others, but I have actually seen the grass on the other side of the hill...and it is fantastic....and I want it.


Then I doubt your wife will ever satisfy you. I'm not sure anyone will. The problem is yours to fix, not your mate's. If you cannot find happiness in a sex life better than 95% of the population, that should be cause for some very deep introspection into your requirements for satisfaction.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cletus said:


> Then I doubt your wife will ever satisfy you. I'm not sure anyone will. The problem is yours to fix, not your mate's. If you cannot find happiness in a sex life better than 95% of the population, that should be cause for some very deep introspection into your requirements for satisfaction.


I agree with the above. 

She is already producing at a level that most 40something women that have been married 20+ years won’t even approach. 

And now she is undertaking an elective hormonal manipulation. 

This is kind of like the classic Charleston Heston movie “The Ten Commandments” where the Pharaoh orders the slaves to make bricks without straw. 

The T injections may bump her libido and assertiveness for awhile, but like the bodybuilders who take PEDs, as they get artificial levels of T, their bodies start shutting down their own natural production and the longer it goes on, the beneficial effect occurs and the side effects become more prominent. 

One of things we all have deep inside us is we always want “more.” We innately want more, we want better, we want faster and we want it with less effort.

You can apply that to anything - money, cars, motorcycles, guns, works of art- whatever it is you are into. Whatever you are into you will always want more of it. 

No one can or even should tell you to settle or to accept less than what you believe you need. 

You will have to decide whether she is good enough for you vs whether you you can achieve more and better. 

Do you have the $$ available for different young sugar babies and escorts etc for another 15 years until your own hormones and your own libido tank? 

Are you good looking and successful enough that you would be able to date enough 30 year olds until you find one that is a sexpot that would be with you full time? 

Are you willing to discard this woman and this relationship to find other chicks? (Even if you hook up on the downlow, you have to expect to get caught eventually). 

These are the questions only you can answer.


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## Deguello (Apr 3, 2015)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Curious what everyone take is on couples being open to trying new things, sexually, in their relationship. As the higher drive partner, I often am interested in trying new things in our sex life. My wife seems ok to try new things, but seems to often raise concern about anything that is directing our attention away from each other. For example, I think it is fun to watch steamy movies together, but sometimes my wife will say she feels "used" if we get turned on by a movie and then have sex. She will say "you got turned on by watching other people". She admits she can also get turned on seeing sex, but prefers not to watch steamy movies (or at least most of the time she prefers not to).
> 
> I struggle with this some. She is not wrong when she says that I got turned on from the movie, but it is in no way saying that she does not turn me on. For me, it is just the idea of novelty and enjoying getting turned on. My wife and I often get into ruts when there is not a ton of passion in our sex life, and as the higher drive partner I often seek out seeing sex (on TV/movies/porn), reading about sex, talking about it. I do not get a ton of sexual expression from my wife outside of the act itself.
> 
> ...


Make sure that she is free,take her by the hand,lead her to the by the hand and lead her to the bedroom undress her slowly kissing her as you remove each garment, make her beg for it


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

I put a lot of thought last night into the feedback from TAM. I think me "real" struggle is not that I dont get enough actual sex acts, but that I feel (I know feelings are not always reality), that my wife does not truly share her full sexual self with me. I have seen glimpses of it, it rare moments, but I have always lived under the idea that she keeps much of her sexuality and sexual thoughts to her self and is "fake" with me. I think a lot of this has stemmed from me knowing (even though she did not admit for many years), her bi curious fantasies and how much she drifted off into fantasy while we were having sex together. Oddly....I am totally ok with it, BUT want it to be something she is totally open to me about and not just things she mentions only on occasion after too much wine, then retracts and pretends its not the case. 

I keep pushing for more sexual exposure for her, in the hopes she will fully share herself 100% with me.

It seems she keeps her innermost desires to herself, and only partially opens up to me. Knowing that on some occasions she fully opened the door (even if it closed quickly) makes me know its there, then unconformable when she acts and says its not. I feel like she is keeping part of herself from me, and it causes me to question why...then I want badly to bring it to the surface.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Not in mommy mode. Our youngest child is 17, so fairly independent and doing his own thing. My wife actually seems to like sex more than she did in the past, but would always choose no frills PIV and that is it. She is open to other things, but no real passion about it. Her ideal sex is always PIV...no foreplay, not much build up outside the bedroom prior. I would prefer spicing things up, and would be happy to do new things that SHE was interested in, but she has zero suggestions and when I ask, she seems bummed that I asked. She feels my asking means I am not happy with the current sex and her feelings get hurt.


After rereading this thread, I think you need to realize that most women just don’t see sex the way we do. Like some people don’t want a fancy breakfast, they just want coffee. They’ve always just wanted coffee not a buffet. Coffee is just fine, it’s scratches the itch. Deep down there very well maybe be some negative imprinting but this is how they are.

Guys want their wives to express “how much they love them” through sex... and how does one do that? As a lover, not FWB and with frequency and intensity. Unfortunately, most guys get the FWB and depending on the relationship the B’s are not the same. Guys want women to make love to them too but for some reason women have a negative perception of this notion and is likely incorrectly tied to porn. I don’t think it’s the sex acts per say that drive men to porn. It’s a desire visualized that their partner actually felt that way about them.

Guys are confused to hear their partners say how they love them more and more each year but then it rings hollow in the bedroom. It’s this friend-zoning that kills the guy. Are you having sex... yes... but it’s like a FWB-situation. There’s no passion, just get each other off or get him off so he leaves me alone. I think this is especially true of women who have avoidant personalities or trauma in their past. 

Don’t get me wrong there are guys that suck at this and women who take tremendous pride in knowing their partners would never go anywhere else because of how good they have it and they work at it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I keep pushing for more sexual exposure for her, in the hopes she will fully share herself 100% with me.


An interesting concept that I read in a book by a therapist was that, "sexuality does not play by democratic rules of fairness." More often than not it tends to be unbalanced and unfair in a way that is designed to push self development forwards. So you are struggling with something which is exactly where sexuality thrives! It is that "struggle" which is kind of like the fountain of youth that powers desire in your relationship. If it were not there then your desire may subside. 

So you may wish to view this problem as something positive and go so far as to even nurture it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I put a lot of thought last night into the feedback from TAM. I think me "real" struggle is not that I dont get enough actual sex acts, but that I feel (I know feelings are not always reality), that my wife does not truly share her full sexual self with me. I have seen glimpses of it, it rare moments, but I have always lived under the idea that she keeps much of her sexuality and sexual thoughts to her self and is "fake" with me. I think a lot of this has stemmed from me knowing (even though she did not admit for many years), her bi curious fantasies and how much she drifted off into fantasy while we were having sex together. Oddly....I am totally ok with it, BUT want it to be something she is totally open to me about and not just things she mentions only on occasion after too much wine, then retracts and pretends its not the case.
> 
> I keep pushing for more sexual exposure for her, in the hopes she will fully share herself 100% with me.
> 
> It seems she keeps her innermost desires to herself, and only partially opens up to me. Knowing that on some occasions she fully opened the door (even if it closed quickly) makes me know its there, then unconformable when she acts and says its not. I feel like she is keeping part of herself from me, and it causes me to question why...then I want badly to bring it to the surface.


I understand where you are coming from and often feel the same way with my wife. 

The catch here is you are not entitled to 100% of her sexuality nor is she entitled to 100% of yours. 

We all have our inner deep dark secrets and they are our own. We are not obligated to disclose our every thought, our every whim, or our every fantasy or desire, even with our spouse. Often times people intentionally keep their deep dark desires from their spouse for fear of judgement or fear their spouse will think less of them or be disgusted or whatever. 

This can have a very dark side. If you go to infidelity sites you will frequently see scenarios where people did things with some random in a bar that they would never do with their spouse. Part of that is women often don't want their spouse to know the "dirty girl" part of them even exists but they don't care what the biker in the lady's room of the bar thinks of them. 

But I get where you are coming from in wanting her to release the dragon with you more. I think your best bet is to make it as safe for her as possible to be herself. That is easy to say but the slightest thing can cause that door to slam shut. One slightly negative or judgemental comment about homosexuality/bisexuality 18 years ago could cause her to never mention it again.

Any kind of pressure for her to divulge her inner desires and secrets can cause her to lock up tighter than Fort Knox. 
For me what helped unlock a whopping total of 3.027% of my wife's fantasies was acknowledging that all of us have our own deep dark desires and as long as one isn't actually acting on the desires that would hurt someone or that are outright illegal or harmful, they are all fair game. It's ok to think anything and feel anything that you want and that it's normal and natural even if it is kinky and raises eyebrows of church ladies. 

I would also encourage you to explore and come to terms with your own ideas and attitudes about female bisexuality and determine with what you are ok with and what you are not and share that with her. Are you truly ok with her fantasizing about a chick going down on her while you are going down on her?? Are you ok with watching bi/lesbian porn with her and her being aroused more by the imagery and fantasy than your own foreplay? Are you ok with her expressing her fascination with other woman while you two are together? 

And the biggee here is would you be ok with any kind of experimental with other women in real life? Would you be ok with her exploring with another woman or would you consider that the same as infidelity? Would you be threatened and insecure? Would you be disgusted? Or would you be accepting, embracing or even enthusiastic about that? 

Most importantly what would your boundaries and hard limits be?

Some times the best way to get people to be more open about their desires and fantasies is to be upfront and honest about what your own boundaries and limits are. 

For example if you were to say your hard limit was she could not have an actual bisexual relationship with a woman without you present but everything else is fine - that may not necessarily cause her to bring home another chick and have you watch, but it might make her more comfortable about fantasizing in her own head or watching bi/lez porn with you. 

The TLDR takeaway here is -

- You are not entitled to all of her sexual ideas, desires and fantasies. Some of her sexual thoughts are none of your business. She is entitled to her privacy in some matters. 

- Don't interrogate and bug her about it.

- Be open and honest about your own acceptance levels and your boundaries and hard limits.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> so I am going to try to be more transparent and specific:


Thank-you I appreciate it and would have responded sooner, if I I didn't have other things to deal with.



> Been together with my wife for 20+ years. We have three children, but youngest is almost 18, so not in childcare mode at all.
> 
> We are in our mid-40's
> 
> ...


I don't think either of you are in a terrible place, yet some things could be improved and addressed as follows below.



> We have sex toys. A few vibrators (both phallic and bullet style), as well as a Womanizer. My wife ONLY orgasms with a vibrator (other than maybe 5 or 6 times in our entire relationship). In 20+ years, she has only had an orgasm without a vibrator during solo masturbation 3 or 4 times. (meaning its not just something within partnered sex, she does not feel she can reach orgasm without vibrator even on her own).


Given that your wife has orgasmed without a vibrator on very limited occasions throughout your relationship together. I am wondering if either of you are interested in foregoing the motorised devices for a time to explore getting there without such aids, after other things have been addressed?



> My wife does not solo masturbate often (can go a few months in between). She says she either often just does not need it as often, or she feels if she does masturbate, she will "have her fix" and then not need partnered sex for a while, so she does not do it often (will add some disclaimers in a later section of this post).


My wife barely ever solo masturbates either, yet we share a splendid sex life together. So I don't think your wife seldom ever masturbating, needs to be an impediment to either of you sharing a better sex life together.



> My wife presents as a person with very "reactive" desire. Very rarely horny on her own, but will get worked up after sex starts. I did notice, that she does get somewhat horny when she ovulates (often 13 days or so after the day her period starts, she has one day she is "horny", although it can often be fairly mild.


Given the above, what follows as quoted below, isn't helpful if you want to share more things sexually with your wife.



> My wife is the primary initiator of sex, as I felt so rejected too many times, that I stopped and waited for her to be in the mood. This is difficult, as she is more reactive sexually, so does not lend itself to be the initiator, or causes her to initiate because its been a few days, more than because she is aroused.


Now it's perfectly understandable that you have withdrawn form initiating, in the face of repeated rejection.

Yet such actions are passive aggressive (and being that way is natural and we all do it sometimes) which certainly doesn't generate more sexual desire. And more importantly it doesn't generate trust and a feeling of safety either, where one can be vulnerable and open to doing more.

Likewise given that your wife is more reactive in her sexual desire, your leaving the field, removes a substantial driver for her desire.

So with your wife being the primary initiator, she is initiating sex in order to in part pacify you and quell your complaints, while getting to have a sex life. Make no mistake that is not the path to having a more fulfilling sex life. Getting her back for rejecting you, by forcing her to be the primary initiator comes at a cost. Of which you are fortunate that she hasn't given up on initiating sex with you herself.

If you want more sex, you will have to abandon being passive aggressive about it. If you want a better sexual relationship you will have to be more sexual and afford a situation where there is more safety and trust for her and yourself.

To start you need to initiate more frequently and do it in a way that makes your wife feel desired for herself. Likewise you will need to be okay with rejection and by being okay with it, you will help build some trust and a sense of safety.

I sometimes reject my wife's sexual advances and it's okay, just as it's okay when she sometimes rejects my sexual advances. The right response in the face of rejection can sometimes be "well you're going to miss out". Or " that's okay, next time you'll get lucky when I have my way with you", in other words it's helpful to accept it with good humour.

This will take time to rebuild, since there are issues with your feeling rejected and issues with your response to that rejection. You will both need to feel safer and trust each other more, and you would both do well to be okay with rejection.



> Wife came from a evangelical christian family and is fairly active in the Christian Church. Her spiritual beliefs weigh in a lot on her sexuality


While ever she continues to have her spiritual beliefs, there's little chance that those beliefs will never weigh strongly upon her. And even if she were to lose her faith, such things like that don't go away easily when that happens.



> As stated above, once having sex, my wife will normally get aroused physically, and many times mentally, but seems only about 50% mentally (compared to times I have seen her at 200%).


You know it's okay for shared sex to not always be spectacular or especially wonderful?

In fact one of the nice things that I find in an ongoing long running sexual relationship. Is our sexual experience is variable which makes the splendid times splendid.

That said is your perception of her being at 50%, just your perception of where she is at? No one can bring you want, when you presume they are holding back inside their head. Plus absent actually being able to read her mind, you cannot know what is always in her head.

I encourage you to try and trust her for what she brings and accept it as it comes.



> With vibrator assistance (which we use 99.9% of all sex), wife has orgasm 95% of the time. It sometimes takes some work, but rare to end without one (unless we have both had too much to drink, and sometimes both never finish, but its not an issue as those times we never got far enough along for it to feel pent up).


This is something worth exploring in terms of the dynamic of it. Her feelings on her orgasm, your orgasm etc? Plus your reliance on motorised aids as a couple to bring orgasm for her.

Of which I think that either of you missing an orgasm on occasion, isn't a big deal. Plus if you are both comfortable with her getting off that way, it's a great aid for you both.



> From the very beginning of our relationship, although she did not discuss or admit, my wife has always gotten very turned on by the idea of her having sex with a woman. She is always only on the receiving end (receiving oral or getting fingered). There have been many occurrences of this turning her on (scene in movie, scene in a book, hearing about it, etc). She denied this for many years, or hid it. I have always known, due to some very obvious events, but only in the last couple years has she been open talking about this.
> 
> She considers herself straight/heterosexual, and finds men sexually attractive, has only dated men, gets turned on by PIV, and feels very confident that she is not bi/lesbian, but when she does fantasize or get really turned on, it is almost always about girl/girl sex.
> 
> ...


If she wants to go there with the women side of things, that is up to her. Encouraging her to explore that side of things when it makes her feel guilty and uncomfortable is a lot to unpack and may well lead her away from wanting you.

So if it makes her feel guilty, then steer her in different directions, if you want things then go there. That said this side of things and the mechanics of how to encourage her to go different ways and do different things. Will work better with a foundation of trust and safety as addressed further above.

So pending you fixing that as a foundation, I'll leave that stuff out of this for now.



> I have offered many non-lesbian sex ideas, and she is open to trying, but never seem to excite her much. She will get aroused, and we have sex, but to get 100% of her and totally engaged only seems to happen when she gets really horny from thinking about girl on girl sex.


That said in saying I will leave it off, can you share how you offer such ideas, and share in what context and situations they are offered? Are they brought up while being sexual or outside of that etc?



Married_in_michigan said:


> I put a lot of thought last night into the feedback from TAM. I think me "real" struggle is not that I dont get enough actual sex acts, but that I feel (I know feelings are not always reality), that my wife does not truly share her full sexual self with me. I have seen glimpses of it, it rare moments, but I have always lived under the idea that she keeps much of her sexuality and sexual thoughts to her self and is "fake" with me. I think a lot of this has stemmed from me knowing (even though she did not admit for many years), her bi curious fantasies and how much she drifted off into fantasy while we were having sex together. Oddly....I am totally ok with it, BUT want it to be something she is totally open to me about and not just things she mentions only on occasion after too much wine, then retracts and pretends its not the case.


Are you asking too much?

Should you appreciate what your wife shares with you, instead of longing for what you think she doesn't share?

Should you make things better from that starting point, going forward?

On her fantasies, they are hers. So I encourage you to let them be hers, and let them be her responsibility to share or pursue. If she wants it with you and she feels safe with you in terms of sexual vulnerability she will bring it to you if she wants to.

It's okay for her to have her own places within herself.

Likewise you don't have to fear what hasn't happened or compare yourself with things that aren't there.

If she ends up choosing women that is on her and for you to deal with only if it happens.



> I keep pushing for more sexual exposure for her, in the hopes she will fully share herself 100% with me.


Pushing for more sexual exposure, isn't the path to having her share herself more fully with you.

Pushing for more safety so she feels free to enjoy more sexual exposure is the likely path to having her share more of herself.

Making her feel she can trust you more and be exposed without fear and, affording a sexual relationship that passive aggression does not have purchase is a better path for what you desire. While also expressing sexual desire for her, without fear of rejection will go a long way.



> It seems she keeps her innermost desires to herself, and only partially opens up to me. Knowing that on some occasions she fully opened the door (even if it closed quickly) makes me know its there, then unconformable when she acts and says its not. I feel like she is keeping part of herself from me, and it causes me to question why...then I want badly to bring it to the surface.


One thing that is worth addressing here is the fact that she should feel free to hold back, or to share as she feels comfortable doing so. Shame and some fear does lead to hesitation and that is understandable.

Plus a relationship is a journey where one has an opportunity to continue to learn about who they are with.

I certainly don't know all of my wife's innermost thoughts from the past, and her ever changing ones along the way through to today. Nor does she know mine in the same way either.

Yet that affords us the opportunity to share some more that we have inside when we feel safe to go there, which drives the changing nature of our sexual relationship along the way. Through the acceptance of who we are and what we are willing and unwilling to do. Which gives us both the opportunity to explore more together, if we want to when we are ready.

Being passive and passive aggressive, while holding back on desire. Would see an end to the sexual growth, that we continue to share.

At the end of the day it should be okay for your wife to open and close doors variously, to allow glimpses of more and to feel uncomfortable with how that makes her feel as well. It is that being okay with such things, which makes more in the future okay.

You can push and push on your timetable without addressing initiation issues to no end, or afford your wife acceptance and safety for her timetable. The latter is more likely to see what you want, while the former is more likely to see you frustrated.

I also want to make it clear pushing isn't always a bad thing either, so I'm not saying don't push, just be mindful of it at times and don't be shy of pushing when it encourages her.

Plus I will again remind you, that you are fortunate that your wife opens such doors and affords you glimpses, even in the face of you unwillingness to initiate yourself and want to push her. That said until the passive aggressive dynamic is resolved she is right to keep much inside herself.

Likewise you may not appreciate what she keeps inside, since opening Pandoras box, may not be to your liking in the end. So be careful of what you wish for.

At the end of the day though, I think you both can make things better and richer sexually which can include bringing new things, if you both work together on adjusting behaviours and expectations.

I think taking this one step at a time is the best way.

So address initiation, rejection issues first and continuing on from that, address safety and trust. Then get into the mechanics of sharing more things and change. Plus orgasm as something you both may want to explore further in the future as well.

For what it's worth my wife and I think you can bring improvements to your sexual relationship, that will help you both share better sex together going forward. And we also think you are in a position, where you still have an opportunity to address this.

I hope this helps a little.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Personal said:


> Thank-you I appreciate it and would have responded sooner, if I I didn't have other things to deal with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for the thorough response. I need to read through it a couple times and gather my thoughts on your feedback.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Personal said:


> Thank-you I appreciate it and would have responded sooner, if I I didn't have other things to deal with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


so... A couple takeaways for me and some thoughts:

- I need to get past the rejection issue and be willing to initiate. I agree with this, but can admit it is a hard step. The past rejection has really eaten away at my confidence in this area

-The total dependency on vibrator is still something I struggle with how to handle. I dont have an issue with sex toys, but when I know that her dependency on it bothers her (from her own words) and causes limitations on what type of sex works and when, it leaves me feeling like it would be best to work towards satisfying sex without the need of the toys. The problem with this issue:
-She has to want to work on this, and as the LD partner, "working" on sex is not often a priority. Often seems easier for her to just live with it
-If she does decide to tackle this, only avenues that seems to have worked for others is either stopping cold turkey and hoping over time that her body will respond to non-vibrator stimulation (which many experts say it will, but can take some time and some frustrating sexual experiences), or she can choose to actively "retrain" her body, which most people say is best done by learning to masturbate without the toys, then moving on to reaching orgasm with a partner without the toys. Both options involve "working" on this, which she is no likely to take on.

Can we live with keeping the sex toys as part of every experience...yes, but has some downsides. 

Being more open with each other about our sexual thoughts and fantasies and so forth....I understand what you wrote to me on this, but the bottom line is that for me, if there is not full openness, transparency, and mutual sharing...things are less than they can be and I will continue to feel unfulfilled. 

Is she obligated to share at this level.....no....but it will always leave me feeling like part of our relationship is lacking


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Ok so while some women don't need vibrators many women do. 

I think some of her hesitancy may be your attitude toward what make her feel good. I can tell you that I rarely have PIV orgasm and while oral is ok it is completely different and I can't take it that often. Oral sex comes in many flavors. One if something is in my vagina or my partner is using his finger to activate my A spot/G spot then the orgasm ca be pretty good if I can get out of my own head and enjoy but that kind of sex is hard for me to just enjoy and not feel selfish. But also oral can be like a real minor orgasm if only the clitoris is focused on as it simply overstimulates the area and doesn't build to a real satisfying event. Same with a vibrator by the way. 

So your idea that you want her to enjoy sex without her vibrator IS telling her she isn't good enough and you don't enjoy her as she is. Also watching sexy movies only works for some women. I'd add that I wouldn't like that either. It isn't that I"m opposed to sexy movies but using it as part of our sexual routine wouldn't be for me. And I don't think I'd ever get comfortable with porn as part of our sexual habits. 

Me and my husband have sex frequently, more frequently than early in our relationship. One of the things that happened to facilitate this was becoming more open with toys and him making it ok. Now that I can have great orgasms I certainly am more interested in sex. I wasn't a one to turn down a bunch before but now I often times initiate. Him making toys and needing something more than PIV made being open and exploring much easier and our sex life has improved. I never thought he'd be as open and ok as he is and I wish we had discovered this the 1st week of our relationship. 

So what are some things he has done to make this happen. We got a we vibe. It has limited positions for us but it is really a great toy with a vibrator inside and out and room for a Penis to make it more and push it into my Gspot. Not only has this little invention given me an explosive orgasm it made me open to PIA. Second often times the vibe is used for foreplay and after play. He can get there fairly quick which I don't mind but then I'm not there yet as I can take a while. Often when he finishes if he knows I haven't then he'll just grab the vibe or another toy like a but plug and go to work. We don't talk a or communicate a lot during sex it isn't our style but we often times to after reports. So him just doing it, not asking do you want me to use the...... and when I mention feeling weird about taking so long he makes it plain it is no big deal. Sometimes he even mentions that he realizes I went for several years without many orgasms (looking back now I don't think he knew at the time).

Anyways you talk about wanting more and wanting more adventure and such but you are also talking about taking away from her not adding. Bottom line some women simply can't or have a very hard time achieving orgasm without some assistance. I don't know what experts you were reading but I'd re think you plan of action. Good Luck.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I gotta say, you're putting up with a lot. It just seems simpler to have as much sex as possible, varying ways, and let the enjoyment while practicing ease everyone through the perceived problem(s).

Not dwelling on it, or her, really, but you, and you two together and plowing forward. 

Take the narrative out of her control. Have sex as you'd like.

Rinse, repeat.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> Ok so while some women don't need vibrators many women do.
> 
> I think some of her hesitancy may be your attitude toward what make her feel good. I can tell you that I rarely have PIV orgasm and while oral is ok it is completely different and I can't take it that often. Oral sex comes in many flavors. One if something is in my vagina or my partner is using his finger to activate my A spot/G spot then the orgasm ca be pretty good if I can get out of my own head and enjoy but that kind of sex is hard for me to just enjoy and not feel selfish. But also oral can be like a real minor orgasm if only the clitoris is focused on as it simply overstimulates the area and doesn't build to a real satisfying event. Same with a vibrator by the way.
> 
> ...


so..I would love to continue some dialog with you. I feel you have some good insight, but I do feel a bit misunderstood. I introduced the toys/vibrators into our sex life, and I have no issue with them being included. She (my wife), is the one who has issue with it. But then her having the issue with it, causes me to want to fix the issue, since it impacts or sex life.

If my wife did not mentioned many times that SHE does not like feeling dependent, and reminding me that sometimes she declines sex or chooses to not start because she feels the only option is the vibrator, I would never even bring this up. To be honest, I like that when sex toys are included, so are powerful orgasms and sexual experiences that almost ALWAYS have orgasms. 

When SHE constantly tells me that using a toy is a barrier in our sex life, my reaction is to try to find a way that she can have satisfying sex without the toys. It is NOT about my not wanting them.

The two main things that seems to happen:
1. If she feels anywhere is within 5 miles of us and may hear the vibrator, sex is off the table. She OFTEN says "I wish I could cum without it, so we could have sex more often without having to wait until we are alone"

2. She feels (her words), that it limits the types of positions, sex acts, and other parts of sex. 

This entire conversation on sex toys is a reaction to her regularly reminding me that she does not like needing them.

Not only have I always explained that I am fine with them, I have NEVER mentioned that I want her to stop using them. I HAVE given her some literature about some experts suggestions on how to retrain your body to orgasm without toys, but this was only after she made mention to me many times that it bothered her to feel dependent. She actually told me that she really felt loved that I cared enough about her sexual pleasure to take the time to try to help her find options to something that bothered her. 

bottom line...I have no issue with sex toys, but I do care if it causes her to feel bothered and takes away from our sex life. Knowing that makes me want to find a solution.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

@Married_in_michigan ,

I'm getting the feeling W is using this as a functional crutch to plain old avoid having sex with you my friend.

Be helpful to her and yourself. Get her a fantastic, may cost a bit, premium couple of vibrators, ultra quiet, and give them happily to her. 

Make it a big deal. Don't wait for sex time, or even be in the bedroom, but just a great guy, giving a great few presents "so this challenge can be put behind us and never mentioned again".

I'm sure you have Alexa and other music in the bedroom as background sound when it's desired and to provide a little sound masking, no worries. 

And get this verbal obstruction behind you. 

The key thing to be prepared to observe is:

1. Is she willing to let this go, have the solution work and move ahead?
2. Or, and this is a big one....how quick does W bring up yet another perceived problem to use as an obstruction or excuse to avoid sex.

Maybe she'll go through a list, and her plan is to just keep you off balance forever to put it back on you why there's not enough sex.

Sadly, it does sound like this.

Good luck!


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> @Married_in_michigan ,
> 
> I'm getting the feeling W is using this as a functional crutch to plain old avoid having sex with you my friend.
> 
> ...


good suggestion..could not hurt. I will look online and check reviews for ultra quiet. I do not mind spending the money if she will be happy.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> -The total dependency on vibrator is still something I struggle with how to handle. I dont have an issue with sex toys, but when I know that her dependency on it bothers her (from her own words) and causes limitations on what type of sex works and when, it leaves me feeling like it would be best to work towards satisfying sex without the need of the toys.


This is my opinion on that comment. For some the importance of sexuality is more about feeling an emotional connection. When making that connection seems problematic, using a vibrator to try and help facilitate things probably feels very unsettling.

If the emotional connection is present, then the idea of playing around with a vibrator is likely not going to be much of an issue.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> 2. Or, and this is a big one....how quick does W bring up yet another perceived problem to use as an obstruction or excuse to avoid sex.


Sigh... They have sex 12x a month and if it wasn't for his wife, the OP wouldn't have any sex at all since she is the one who has to initiate it.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> good suggestion..could not hurt. I will look online and check reviews for ultra quiet. I do not mind spending the money if she will be happy.


So instead of addressing your problems in order, you are going to put the cart before the horse. Do you want to improve your sex life, or are you determined to keep the status quo?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Married_in_michigan said:


> so... A couple takeaways for me and some thoughts:
> 
> - I need to get past the rejection issue and be willing to initiate. I agree with this, but can admit it is a hard step. The past rejection has really eaten away at my confidence in this area
> 
> ...


I'm a bit surprised that your response is mostly about her vibrator use.

If you want a better sex life with her, you need to fix your lack of initiation which is an insufficient expression of desire first. Then by way of accepting rejection and listening to her, while easing up on bludgeoning her with your solutions for your problems on how to fix her. Provide her a safe place and build greater sexual trust with her. Before you go down any other paths.

Now on her reliance on other aids, I hope you realise that your wife has made it pretty clear in a way that is mindful of your ego. That she wishes you could step up to the plate and get her to orgasm without her having to rely on a vibrator.



> Being more open with each other about our sexual thoughts and fantasies and so forth....I understand what you wrote to me on this, but the bottom line is that for me, if there is not full openness, transparency, and mutual sharing...things are less than they can be and I will continue to feel unfulfilled.
> 
> Is she obligated to share at this level.....no....but it will always leave me feeling like part of our relationship is lacking


As long as you remain wrapped up in feeling she ought to give you what you feel entitled to, you will never be able to provide a safe place for your wife to be more open with you.

If you want more, you need to afford her the trust and safety to share more with you. Unless you do that for her, you are never going to get what you desire from her.



Married_in_michigan said:


> good suggestion..could not hurt. I will look online and check reviews for ultra quiet. I do not mind spending the money if she will be happy.


So in the face of your wife not being happy about, having to rely on motorised aids to have an orgasm with you. You think it's a good idea to double down on what she isn't happy about, by wanting to buy her more vibrators.

Do you not see the disconnect here? Do you not see that while ever you continue to ignore what your wife shares with you, things won't improve?

Are you determined to fail?

If you want your wife to share more and better sex with you, you need to step up to the plate and act accordingly.

Which means sharing the responsibility of initiating sex, instead of passively waiting for your wife to always do it. Otherwise make no mistake, your lack of effort and being butt hurt about things, make it look like you don't really want sex with your wife.

At the end of the day make no mistake, if you want better sex. You ought to do more to enhance your connection with your wife, instead of reinforcing the disconnect.


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## Where there's a will (Feb 10, 2014)

Taking this right back to the beginning. She is applying focus on herself and letting emotions define reality. Until that changes then the marriage will not restore. A number of women treat marriage as a game, they put out, secure the deal, then switch off because feelings take over. Men go crazy, they remain constant, their partner still loves them but not enough to be in love. The vows at a wedding are promises of selfless service on both sides. If this is not the mindset there is no future. Have the talk.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

aine said:


> Maybe because 'you girls' understand the wife more than the men on here


well that is pretty obvious. Men just keep trying new things, and hoping ONE OF THEM will work.

Steamy movies might be "steamy" to you, but not so much for her.
BUT there might be other movies or books or other play games that WOULD be steamy for her. Your trick is to figure out what they are. 

I have pointed out in other threads....some women do not feel sexy at all, either emotionally, or feel good that way about their bodies. They honestly can not believe you are still horny for her....so you want to try to reinforce her self image a little too along the way.

you could try this website, to find out if there are any mutually kinky things you both would like to try:






MojoUpgrade | Try new things







mojoupgrade.com


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Not in mommy mode. Our youngest child is 17, so fairly independent and doing his own thing. My wife actually seems to like sex more than she did in the past, but would always choose no frills PIV and that is it. She is open to other things, but no real passion about it. Her ideal sex is always PIV...no foreplay, not much build up outside the bedroom prior. I would prefer spicing things up, and would be happy to do new things that SHE was interested in, but she has zero suggestions and when I ask, she seems bummed that I asked. She feels my asking means I am not happy with the current sex and her feelings get hurt.


Suggestion for you. Lelo. Great products, expensive but well with it. Mrs. NLLH loves it as it rolls her eyes back in her head literally.

Just surprise her with it. Ladies speak up.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Just surprise her with it. Ladies speak up.


If I were to surprise my wife with a Lelo vibrator or any other kind, she'd quickly ask me to return it.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Personal said:


> If I were to surprise my wife with a Lelo vibrator or any other kind, she'd quickly ask me to return it.


Oh no. A Lelo will change her tune. Trust me.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Oh no. A Lelo will change her tune. Trust me.


Thanks, but we've got this.

My wife orgasms easily through PIV sex, or oral sex, or the use of digits etc. She also orgasms via PIA sex as well. All without the use of any motorised aids.

That said she has tried various vibrators of differing rpm's, including high end ones. And all of them have made her feel numb and uncomfortable.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Mrs. NLLH loves it as it rolls her eyes back in her head literally.


Oh and I'm glad you are both happy with it.


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