# Husband Being Demoted



## Starstarfish

I'm slightly hesitant to make this post, as thus far on TAM I've only made passing reference to indeed my own marriage and it's problems. I've never had "a thread" really that got into things. But - it seems its the time to make one. While this post is about a financial issue, its more complex than that, hence why I didn't put this in the finance issues section.

Basic info:

I'm 30, my husband is 33. We'll be married 6 years this December. We have one child, a three year old. There are no other children from previous relationships for either of us. My husband was previously married when he was younger, the marriage lasted two years. His ex was diagnosed BPD by a therapist, they tried MC, but she went off the rails, and things ended when she attempted assault with a deadly weapon.

But the story likely starts way before then. My husband was raised in a very religious home wherein there was a heavy emphasis on "enriching the faith." First and foremost by having large families (he's one of six, his mother was one of 12). (This led to some issues in H's house as apparently having enough food was an issue when they were kids - it's been openly discussed at family get togethers.) Secondly, there was encouragement about generational involvement in the clergy of the church. Thus my husband and his eldest brother entered seminary to become minsters. My husband did not complete his schooling (he would have gotten a Masters in Theology) because during his final year as noted above, his marriage ended. And thus, he was not "passed" on his assessment as a Vicar because of their feeling he'd be a poor example to the faithful given their stringent feelings against divorce. 

My husband then entered the "secular" world and now works in banking. He's had four positions in the six years we've been married. Each has been a "promotion" in the sense that each has consecutively had better pay. But - not all of these promotions were at his desire, but rather higher ups finding the "best place to utilize him." As in the end, it becomes reflected to people that while he is good at his job, there's a lack of passion. His DM told him as much once when he applied for a position, and she said he couldn't "sell her" that he really wanted it. In the end he doesn't feel it's what he "should be doing" (which I personally think relates back to a mourning about not going into the ministry) but he can't form an idea of what he'd rather do instead. 

H has mood swings between up-beat energy and soul-crushing ennui. He self-punishes for deemed failings at work or life in general by refusing to eat. Two years ago he had a panic attack at work, which facilitated him going to the hospital. He transferred into a different position (or was transferred there's some sort of grey line there) and things got better. He was told then to begin IC, but refused to go. About a year ago, he began another position, and things have gone downhill from there. Problems with his boss, problems with co-workers, he feels defeated and unable to fix the situation. I try to be sympathetic, I listen to him when talks about work, I've tried to attend events with him and be supportive and to help his business, I've tried to up the sex to help his stress level. 

Two weeks ago he had another "break" at work. He called me from work crying, and apparently one of his co-workers became aware of the situation, and called his boss to express her concern. HR became involved and has now made regular IC (first session is Monday) contingent on his continued employment. Which I thought was a positive, perhaps he'd get some catharsis, could talk through some issues, discuss strategies about dealing with people at work, it would be a move in the right direction. 

But Friday, his boss comes to him and explains that's not the end of it. Higher-ups no longer have the confidence in him to continue in his current position, and he's being "offered" a transfer. It was made rather painfully clear his option is to take this transfer or get fired. And this transfer will come with a $10,000 pay cut. He told me today. 

I'm in shock, and frankly I'm scared senseless. I have no idea how we are going to make that work. I'm scared for the future because I fear this will forever mar what is otherwise ten years of good employment and seniority at a good company. I'm angry that he refused to address the problem two years ago. I feel overwhelmed, helpless, and uncertain how I'm going to make it day-to-day without spending all my time worrying about money. It's 5 AM, I've been awake since 2AM, I'm nauseous.


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## ReformedHubby

I'm sorry you're going through this. I'm an employer of many people and it sounds like they are pushing him out. They've probably been documenting everything so that when the time comes to let him go they can say they did everything they could.

Your situation is tough. I would advise that he find another position elsewhere. Sometimes a change of scenery can do wonders. Hopefully this is all it takes to get him content with life again. 

However, if a change in scenery doesn't help, I'd advise that he continue counseling to improve his coping skills. If those don't improve he is not likely to find success no matter where he goes. I don't know how to say this without sounding harsh, but a grown man should not be crying about anything that happens at work. It ain't that serious.


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## PBear

While I mostly agree with RH, I'd take it one step further, and say that this should be a wake-up call to your hubby that he needs to start dealing with his issues whether his change of scenery is made (or seems to help) or not. 

You say you've been "supportive", which is great. But what about pushing him to get help from your side, not just from the employer? He doesn't need a "yes man" at home, agreeing to his vents about how things are at work. He needs someone to help him get help, even if that's not what he thinks he needs. 

C


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## LongWalk

Indeed, don't panic. He should take the transfer and begin applying for a new job with a new company. However, he should definitely stick with IC. Corporate life can be tough. Performance is an issue. Sometimes there are bullies. Bad business plans, etc. Your husband may not be totally at fault.

Be that as it may, most organizations have relatively short memories. If someone pulls himself together and does a credible job, he can earn a good reputation, sometime within a few months time.

It is great that you are so supportive. Smart to keep your sex life going if you enjoy it, for it would just be another blow for him to feel unwanted and unloved.

Do you work? A three-year-old can go to daycare. If you earn a decent income, you ought to be able to maintain economic stability.


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## Theseus

You realize that this is 2013 and your husband is not the only person in the home who is allowed to get a job, right?? Your son is 3, which means that within a year or so he can start pre-school. 

If you get a job also, not only will you make up for the loss in income from this demotion, but then you will take some of the burden off your husband. Being the sole breadwinner of the family is certainly a large part of his stress.

I sympathize with your husband because I have plenty of personal experience in working in a field that's against my nature and I have no passion for. You may be frustrated that your husband didn't follow through with IC, but keep in mind that NO amount of IC is going to make him happy with his job, if his heart is elsewhere.


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## Blonde

Identifying with your journey in some ways, only we went in the direction of "ministry" for the first 8 years of our 30year marriage. I want to talk about that fear you are having.

H has not had the emotional ups and downs of your H but he has what I would call "authority issues" which has led to frequent job losses over the years when he just will not focus his energy where his employer wants. 

I remember one time when gasoline went over $3 and my H was making 24K annually, single income, family of 10, I was soooo very tempted to worry. I had a talk with God about it and He comforted me.

God reminded me that He is my Father in heaven and He knows our needs.
God reminded me to trust Him.
God took away my anxiety and gave me peace.
Circumstances didn’t change but my heart had peace.
God wasn’t doing any hand-wringing over the price of gasoline.
God loves me and He is trustworthy. 
Matt 6:25-34 and Phil 4:6-7

H's earthly father had told him when he was a little boy “you’ll never be able to support a mama cat” and I believe my husband spent decades living under the power of that negative prophecy/”anti-blessing” by his earthly father.

A wife’s blessing alone cannot undo that.  I always knew he underestimated his own worth. He also engaged in self-sabotaging behavior which led to frequent job termination.

In the financial valley, the Lord shepherded us. He will do that for you too.


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## mablenc

I'm sorry this is happening but I think the employer is being very generous and caring. I'm surprised they didn't just show him the door. That means they are concerned for him a person. It sounds like he not only needs IC but a mental evaluation. Take advantage of this opportunity, since he's not listening to you about getting help. A demotion will mean less responsibility and hopefully less stress while he gets better. 10k is not as bad as getting terminated and more than unemployment benefits and he's getting help. 

Look at this as a temporary issue and it may be a blessing in disguise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mablenc

Also 10k minus taxes is going to be about 7 to 6k tops that spread out in the year is not too much of a hit, look into cutting cost now and you won't feel it as much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

He needs to address his stress and his coping mechanisms ASAP - face them and own them.

But, he also needs to start in a new job search and maybe a new business ares if banking doesn't do it for him.

Of course bad bosses can create tremendous stress in a job, but if he's not loving the work then instead if fighting to keep doing it, he needs to look at what will fulfill him.


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## Starstarfish

> You realize that this is 2013 and your husband is not the only person in the home who is allowed to get a job, right??


Yes, indeed, I do realize this. We were figuring out for a while about attempting to move back to my home state (where I'm teacher certified) to better the finances and my job prospects, and H went on an interview there. Unfortunately, the effort cost $600 and didn't pan out. But, I was applying for jobs "back there" when we were working in that mindset earlier in the year.

After it was obvious that wasn't going to pan out, I've refocused my efforts in finding a job myself here. I've been applying, took a class this summer to keep my teacher's license up to date, and have gone to several interviews. I'd been concentrating my efforts in finding a job in my profession (teaching) rather than other things I've done in the past (retail, office work) because of the requirement to complete so many FTE years of teaching work to keep my license. 

However, currently, I'm waiting on my transcript from that college course this summer to be able to submit to the state to get my license in -this state- which is kind of a hink in getting a better paying job in my field at the moment. 

And actually, before all of this came down, I had just started a job myself last Tuesday.  It's very few hours and doesn't pay a whole lot, but it's the first time I've had a job in my field (teaching) since moving here, so it's a least a move in the right direction. And I'm going today to hand in an application to supplement it with a part-time retail position (I'm hoping the employee discount will help me out with clothes for the teaching job.  After losing almost 50 lbs since January I have basically no clothes that are work ready.)

But as to the whole "allowed to get a job thing" there's actually a whole lot of background there that needs it's own post that I'll need to work on later today.


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## Pepper123

Many companies have HR programs that offer counseling not as a service, but to cover themselves. 

I work in insurance, and have seen many, many comp claims reported relating to instances just like your Hs... And as a manager I also think they are trying to push him out. They are taking the necessary steps to terminate with cause, and reduce any exposure to liability or stress claims.


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## soulsearch

star,


you are a poster I admire for your insightful and no holds barred advice. I haven't any advice, but I wanted to say that I hope this turns into one of those mole hills that look like mountains when you first face them.


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## mablenc

Pepper123 said:


> Many companies have HR programs that offer counseling not as a service, but to cover themselves.
> 
> I work in insurance, and have seen many, many comp claims reported relating to instances just like your Hs... And as a manager I also think they are trying to push him out. They are taking the necessary steps to terminate with cause, and reduce any exposure to liability or stress claims.


He's been asked to go to counseling and refused to a year ago, that alone would have been enough to terminate him. Plus most states are at will employment.


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## JustHer

Star, I know how you feel. When our basic needs get threatened, it is very scary.

You are doing everything you can, and I admire you for that. You are in a great position as you already have your education - good for you.

The only thing I can see, and you already know this too, is that your H really needs to go to counseling. You are probably trying to be gentle on his emotions knowing they are delicate, but you need to insist he goes. Lay down the law. You are half this marriage and he needs to make his mental health a priority - if not for him, then for you.


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## Pepper123

Honestly the best thing I think you could do now is the IC. I'm sure if he can turn himself around his employer would much rather see that than let him go.

We hear the 180 on here so much, and your H has to do the same thing here. Different process, but same line of thinking. If he could bounce around departments, he is obviously skilled, trainable, etc. I don't think his employer wants to lose him, but as of now he is a loose canon. 

Would it be possible for him to volunteer at church in some capacity to try and offset his missing fulfillment from not being in the ministry??


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## bunny23

Yeah this happens.. and I understand why you are upset. But honestly? It could have been a lay off or worse.. firing "at fault"
BTW that happened to me once and no it was no fair, yes it was terrible because I was ill .. but somehow I got through it (I actually got a better job)

I however, was not depressed, and to be honest I think your H is, it may have been a long time of working in that environment or whatever.. but I think he is dealing with depression and anxiety. I don't think counselling alone would fix this.

But I can imagine how it feels.. for someone to want to be preaching/involved with the church to finance? OMG.

I for one would never work like that- I hate anything "finance" and find it boring.
He however has a child and a wife, and ultimately needs to get his act together, IC is non negotiable here.

I would suggest you tell him to do as he's told by HR, and take this as a gift where he can work on his issues and find a more fulfilling career. I get that a 10k cut can be scary, but a firing usually leads to no unemployment.

Is he the only one working? I hope you are working too because with him being so unstable I would be making some financial plan real quick.


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## Starstarfish

Thanks to everyone who gave advice and thoughts so far. 

We are going to our first session tonight to meet with the counselor and she what she wants to suggest as far as an IC and possibly MC schedule to get through this. So, hopefully I'll have updates.


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## Starstarfish

So - H has begun IC and we've begun MC with it, and I can honestly say that I'm not sure if its making things better or worse. While I think it is a positive that things that likely should have been discussed a long time ago are finally coming out into the open, I'm uncertain how to deal with the emotional upheaval of some of the things that are getting said. That rather than giving me hope that we can work through problems together, there may be such a gulf between us on core issues we are doomed. And honestly, I never thought I'd find myself saying that. 

Here's some updates:

- From the time of this post til today, I've transitioned from being a SAHM to working two jobs. 

The first job is in my field (teaching) my second job is retail. I'm trying hard to keep a grip on the situation, but the truth is - its producing a lot of negative emotions. The issue isn't the working itself, I had already gotten my first job before the OP on this thread so was already in the process of returning to employment. I'm currently awaiting my license to be approved to transfer into a higher FTE teaching position.

I now have days I work from noon to 10 PM, I work every Saturday and Sunday. This extra work is helping to make up the gap from my husband's demotion, but the trade off is we now have little time together as when he doesn't work (evenings, weekends) I'm now working. 

I don't really enjoy retail, because while I have a personality that makes me good at it, I find it emotionally draining about all of the drama. Also its difficult that in my last retail position I was essentially the working manager of the store I was at for the last months I was there, and I'm now "low man on the food chain" wherein higher-ups and other co-workers talk down to me and handle me with kid gloves like I'm a moron. 

And in sum total, the situation is making me have a borderline level of resentment for my husband. I resent that he has no desire to "take ownership" of the situation - he has no plan about looking for a different job, getting more training, going back to school - nothing. He feels "it will all work out." Last night during our counseling session he told me that he doesn't feel he should need to have a plan to do any of the above, and asked "Why what he was doing wasn't good enough."

It isn't about anything being "good enough" - but I feel the goal for employment should be over the long course better positions with higher pay and becoming in some way more valuable to your employer as a means to have better job stability. I explained that if we want to accomplish goals (owning rather than renting, family vacations, savings, etc) everyone needs to be on the same page. That despite being the partner with the higher education, the fact is and will remain that because of my field, he'll always have the higher earning potential, even if/when I get a full time teaching position. Finances and banking just frankly pays better than teaching. 

He feels that he doesn't want any of those things, and therefore - he shouldn't need to work to accomplish them. He shouldn't need to get a job any better than the job he has, making the salary he is currently making (after the demotion), and my choice is to work towards the goals I have, or adjust my goals accordingly. His solution is to be more helpful around the house - to do the cleaning and the grocery shopping while I work. 

And I wish I could say I feel egalitarian enough to handle that role-reversal and feel comfortable with it, but frankly - I don't. A big deal was made when we were first married based on religious factors about men being the lead of the household, and how my employment should reflect the church's values (I turned down a job interview at a religious school of the "wrong kind" once years ago because of this, and I still hold a lot of resentment about it.). I feel like that mindset got me stuck in my last dead-end retail job, and now we've done a total 180 about the religious aspect of working now we stopped going to church, and yet the situation in the end is the same. 

I guess in the end, I just resent that my husband feels when he doesn't like his work or his job he can just "opt out" of having any plan, any ambition, and drive to do anything else. He can just draw a line in the sand and say, this is it, this is what I'm going to do. But I don't feel similarly empowered if I want our life to head anywhere. 

And now I sit and think - how do I go to work tonight and work another late shift with co-workers who treat me like an idiot, and customers who treat me like a sub-creature while my husband feels that's too good for him? That he has no desire to really build a life if it takes effort on his part beyond his comfort zone. How do I keep doing anything, and why bother.


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## A Bit Much

I just read your update and I'm sorry. You are in a very tough position, and I totally feel your frustration and angst in every word you typed.

Your husband is relieved. Relieved and content... he's not going to want to do anything about that, because he's feeling positive as opposed to how he was feeling 2 months ago.

Unfortunately, his content means the opposite for you. Having to experience change can be a good thing, but sometimes with it comes discomfort and a bit of pain. It sounds to me like you're the one in this that's getting the brunt of it. 

I don't know what to advise, as you have to do what you must to keep things afloat financially... especially if he has no intentions of doing his part. And while I'm not super religious, I get the dynamic you speak of. Your husband is NOT the head anymore. He's not trying to be, he has in fact given up his role in that area. It's difficult not to be angry about that and all that comes with his attitude. 

Keep talking about it in MC. It's going to help you through this and bring more clarity to how you need to proceed where he is concerned.


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## John Lee

I would just like to point something out from your last post -- now that you are working retail, you are in some senses in a similar position to your husband, i.e. working in a job you don't really like because your circumstances require it. Yet you don't seem to have empathy for your husband, rather you resent him. You seem to have one set of ideas about how he should treat his job, which he doesn't like, and a different set of standards for your own work, which in your mind is your husband's fault you have to do in the first place.


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## John Lee

I would also suggest that if your husband has been working in finance for some time, he probably makes a pretty good income, even after a $10,000 pay cut. If you're so strapped after that cut that it was difficult to pay the bills, then you may be living too expensive a lifestyle. You should give yourselves more financial breathing room -- that will also take some of the pressure off your husband. It is very hard to work in a long hours, demanding, high pressure field that you don't like (and that may even contradict your values) while knowing that your family is in jeopardy if you lose that job.


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## COGypsy

I'm guessing that the real problem isn't just this demotion. It sounds like this is a pattern of not being able or willing to do what has to be done. If he's already been shuffled all around and it's been made clear that this is his last shot, then it's really not a comparison between her dissatisfaction with having to have two jobs and his dissatisfaction with his career. He's deliberately blowing his opportunities while she's busting her butt to make up the difference. With a pattern of behavior like his, I think it would be hard _not_ to resent him. Maybe if he were trying to transition into what he wants to do or something like that it would be different, but that doesn't seem to be his inclination.


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## LongWalk

John Lee said:


> I would also suggest that if your husband has been working in finance for some time, he probably makes a pretty good income, even after a $10,000 pay cut. If you're so strapped after that cut that it was difficult to pay the bills, then* you may be living too expensive a lifestyle. You should give yourselves more financial breathing room -- that will also take some of the pressure off your husband*. It is very hard to work in a long hours, demanding, high pressure field that you don't like (and that may even contradict your values) while knowing that your family is in jeopardy if you lose that job.


Do you spend money on stuff you don't need? Many people do. It does not make you happier, contrary to advertising.

Let your husband coast for a while. But if you find yourself unwilling to have sex and your love dying, then you know that your instinctual desire for an alpha male trumps the life you have built with your husband. As you distance yourself from him, he will become even more beta and you will be in a negative cycle.

Do you think a really Christian sort of dude can be alpha? The only ones who come to mind for me are the aggressive mega church ministers who are out for money. Does sound like your husband is that type at all. He is not ruthless.

Does he play sports? Can you get him physically fitter? Maybe he will be more appealing if he is stronger?


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## John Lee

I mean it sounds a little like you think it's HIS job to accomplish YOUR goals. Have you ever considered how that might make him feel? Do you wonder if he might not resent you a little for that?

If you hate retail, working in banking may easily be five times more hellish (depending on what kind of banking). You make a nice speech about how you believe your husband should approach work, and then you turn around and complain about how much you hate your job. It seems a little hypocritical.


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## TikiKeen

Starstar, our H's pasts are similar, as are their situations. My H entered his "new passion" and failed two businesses in four years. I had to issue an ultimatum that I'd leave if he didn't re-enter his old line of work and also seek continuous IC due to the behaviors he had as a result of the depression he had/has.

He's giving up. The old tapes from his FOO are combining with the work messages ("you aren't worth a higher/better position, so settle for this or else"), and it's hellish.

I'm glad you're working, and wonder what you are doing about the resentment you have. Mine led me here, so that's why I'm asking. Sometimes all the gratitude in the world won't ease things; only action will.

Does he have any sort of spiritual guidance at all? You said you two completely left the church/religion, and that might be a good thing. But...what has replaced that sense of comfort, that faith-building? Are you willing to scout out a new religious home that suits you, with or without him? You might have to lead and take over being the household's spiritual leader for a while, but it seems like that's a huge hole that's left open.

Also, has the T referred him to a psych for meds or more complete assessment? It might be time for that.

For me, looking for things to be grateful for has helped, but hasn't completely done the trick. Even today, he shut down over money worries, and I felt so angry: he got us into this, and the time it's taking to get us out seems to reinforce the selfish decisions he made which landed us here. I (and you) cannot fix them. They have to want it. All I know is that changes didn't start happening until the pain and consequences for him were severe enough to motivate him.

Feel free to PM me any time.


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## RClawson

This story touches on so many different aspects of my own personal history that I hope I can lend some helpful advice.

Most Importantly: Your husband and his religious conditioning and the guilt associated with his inability to finish seminary. Forget the financial aspect. As John Lee stated buckle down and revise your budget. I have a strong impression your husband feels the need to help people through his profession. Working in the field of finance is just not going to coincide with that desire. What about using his education to get an advanced degree in counseling? What about being a Marriage and Family Therapist? What about a transition into becoming a Financial Recruiter or Headhunter. One of the most rewarding careers I ever had in my life personally and financially. I had no financial background but I love people and it made me successful and trusted in the industry. 

I agree with the other posters that he is being set up to be terminated or forced out because he will not be able to take another demotion or will just burn out. 

You: Quit taking the abuse at the retailer. You are a grown woman let them know they need to lose the attitude or you are walking. by the way I used to be a Buyer for one of the largest retailers in the country. I was very well respected. A couple of years ago due to the change in the economy I found myself stocking shelves at Target at Christmas. I established boundary's pretty quick with all the hot shots who could barely string a sentence together. Do not be afraid to lose that job (again budget issue).

Continue to be supportive and let your husband know you want him to be successful and content. I take this very seriously. I do not underestimate what kind of toll his failure could do to your marriage. I have lived it personally. I am more than willing to help in anyway I can so if you are in the US I am sure I can help him get connected to a network of people that can help him find a different opportunity or put him in another direction. Feel free to PM me anytime.


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## chillymorn

in sickness and in health for richer or poorer............

doesn't mean anything! just a bunch of balona!

when the man don't make the cash weather he is a good person or not.


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## Sanity

One of the most emotionally debilitating things that can happen to a man is losing a job or demotion. It really hit us to the core especially if the man has any shred of work ethic and provider tendancies. 

Having said this, your job as a wife is to encourange him and find solutions like adults and stop worrying about what you don't have and focus on solutions. Some solutions might involve cutting back the lifestyle and maybe you going back to work earlier than planned. Just try to work with the husband in a general direction. You both won't agree but both of you need to agree eventually on the same direction.


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## A Bit Much

Question~

How does one work with a person that says...

'It'll all work out' and is not doing anything? Magic 8 ball commentary isn't working to find solutions. How does one work with a person who has NO plans whatsoever for the future?

The OP is working 2 jobs. The 2 jobs aren't enough. She needs him to do more to help, and at least have a plan. He's NOT doing either. So now what?


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## COGypsy

Sanity said:


> It really hit us to the core *especially if the man has any shred of work ethic and provider tendancies*.


I think it's the lack of these things that is a bigger problem than a pay cut/demotion.


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## John Lee

A Bit Much said:


> Question~
> 
> How does one work with a person that says...
> 
> 'It'll all work out' and is not doing anything? Magic 8 ball commentary isn't working to find solutions. How does one work with a person who has NO plans whatsoever for the future?
> 
> The OP is working 2 jobs. The 2 jobs aren't enough. She needs him to do more to help, and at least have a plan. He's NOT doing either. So now what?


If a banking job plus two p/t jobs are not "enough" then the lifestyle is too expensive imo.


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## A Bit Much

'It'll all work out' doesn't solve the problem or even ease the mindset that there IS a problem. Is dismissing his wife's concerns helpful? That is my question.


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## John Lee

A Bit Much said:


> 'It'll all work out' doesn't solve the problem or even ease the mindset that there IS a problem. Is dismissing his wife's concerns helpful? That is my question.


It sounds to me like he's cracked under all the pressure, and I don't see any sympathy from his wife, I just see more pressure. He's worked a demanding job he hates and that goes against his values, and he's now been demoted. He's probably depressed. And he has expectations to meet for a lifestyle that his wife demands and that seems to be more than he wants.


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## A Bit Much

John Lee said:


> It sounds to me like he's cracked under all the pressure, and I don't see any sympathy from his wife, I just see more pressure. He's worked a demanding job he hates and that goes against his values, and he's now been demoted. He's probably depressed. And he has expectations to meet for a lifestyle that his wife demands and that seems to be more than he wants.


I disagree. I don't see her making any demands. She was a SAHM. She's now out working not 1 but 2 jobs. That's a solution... partially. That takes care of SOME of the financial changes that just occurred. What it doesn't take care of is her husbands attitude. The same attitude that got them to this predicament. He was steering the ship in this marriage from the beginning and he's essentially let go of the wheel. He's STILL at the same job... the one that's causing the cracking and doing nothing about it. That's worrisome because if he gets FIRED, he has no back up plan.

A woman places a lot on security in a marriage. She needs it, the same way a man needs physical intimacy. How can she support and encourage a man that has thrown all of that up in the air? All I'm saying is I understand being angry about the 'It'll all work out' response. That's not concrete. That's not even giving a clear vision of what's going to happen next. The security is lost.


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## Hicks

Kids?

IT's pretty clear that this is a bad choice of career for your husband. He hates it and it is making him miserable.

The most important thing in your life is togetherness with your family and your husband... It seems really a bad move to give up being a mother / wife in order to work 2 jobs and make $10,000.

Remember, this is a marathon and not a sprint.

Both of you should be in jobs that enhance yourselves, your family and your abilty to be a spouse / parent.

It seems to me that work and money are given way too much standing in your home rather than the concepts of happiness and fulfillment.


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## TikiKeen

Being homeless (which can be where they are headed if he is fired soon) doesn't lead to feeling to happy or fulfilled. If he doesn't pony up and be proactive about making decisions which benefit the marriage instead of just himself, there won't be a marriage. Instead, he's all frozen in fear, from the sound of it.


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## RClawson

Hicks said:


> Kids?
> 
> It seems to me that work and money are given way too much standing in your home rather than the concepts of happiness and fulfillment.


Amen!


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## Blonde

If it was me, I'd quit the retail job and focus on upgrading and polishing those teaching credentials (if that is your long term goal).

Your children and your husband can then have a bit more of your time and you won't have so much fodder for resentment.


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## 2ntnuf

star,

Good job taking the responsibility to get a second job. Hope you can change that retail position for something else and get some of the pressure off. 

Seems like you might need to check out your bills and where to cut back and so forth, just to prepare for something that may be inevitable for a little while. I'm going to suggest you take a look at this site: Dave Ramsey Homepage - daveramsey.com 

I've listened to his radio program and he seems like he really knows what he is doing. Maybe he or his team can help you?

I think your husband needs to find where his heart is with a career and pursue it. It may mean less pay, but more happiness. You will eventually have to decide if it's what you can live with.

I would replace that retail job asap. You don't need the added stress. 

Good luck, star. All my best wishes to you and your family.


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## RoseAglow

John Lee said:


> It sounds to me like he's cracked under all the pressure, and I don't see any sympathy from his wife, I just see more pressure. He's worked a demanding job he hates and that goes against his values, and he's now been demoted. He's probably depressed. And he has expectations to meet for a lifestyle that his wife demands and that seems to be more than he wants.


I agree that it sounds like he's cracked and is depressed, IME that is not the actual problem.

The problem is that he has not acted in a way that protects/supports him, his wife, and family. And worse- I am concerned that he actually just can't do it.

It is one thing not to like one's job- sadly, this is a reality for lots of people. It is another thing to not like your job but not do anything about it. That is a victim-martyr thing. But even that is survivable if it gets the job done.

It is a whole other issue when you have a young child and SAHM, and you begin a downward spiral at work, and you DON'T problem-solve or begin to create back-up plans. "Everything will work out" is NOT a workable "plan" when you are responsible for supporting a family.

Per the poster, the husband has been on a clear downward spiral at his job. He has been moved around, referred to counseling (which he refused!), and now has been demoted.

I am not sure if he just can't read the writing on the wall- which as a wife would be a HUGE RED FLAG- or if he can read the writing on the wall but for whatever reason is too debilitated to do anything.

I have seen this before among my friends and family. I hope that this is a one-off/job-related issue, where he might find his passion and become a more proactive, stable provider and happier person. I suspect though that if this was truly job-related and personality-related, the DH would have been much more proactive about changing jobs or improving his performance. 

Instead, I fear that actually this is the level at which the DH basically is able to do. He is more likely the kind of person who needs a LOT of hand-holding and the OP is going to have to be the driver/main decision maker, because her DH has very poor judgement and does not see the big picture.

I am not so sure that they are really going over on their lifestyle; I have family on Wall Street and in banks, and only the two Wall Streeters make really decent money. Everyone else makes a nice middle-class salary but well under 6-figures. This guy isn't a finance star- he is on his way out; a 10k cut could be significant, and if the OP is working 2 jobs they are probably having to pony up for child care as well. We need more information before I am willing to believe she is busting her hump to keep some kind of posh or even moderately extravagant lifestyle.

OP, your situation hits home for me, as it does for other posters. My DH and I have discussions at least monthly about the situation with a family member, who I suspect will end up living with us, and a dear long-term friend, who we struggle with trying to "help" but really just need to cut out of our lives. 

In both cases, the person just does not make decisions that lead to a solid, safe life (emotionally, financially, health-wise, etc.) Neither of them see the big picture- they can't understand why things happen (or more frequently, don't happen) for them. Their decision-making/lack of vision affects all aspects of their lives. And, in both cases, it didn't really become apparent until their early 30s, which was when they started to attempt to move out of the entry-level, $10/hr type jobs. They hit the Peter Principle level very early. I fear that is what has happened with your husband.

I think your best plan of action right now is to cut down to bare-bones and have a few contingency plans. It doesn't sound like your current situation is tenable for very long. I would expect your DH to be fired soon. Plan for the worst case. And definitely try to get him into treatment, because hopefully the underlying cause is treatable, such as anxiety, PTSD from his childhood, depression, etc.


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## Starstarfish

I think people are making a lot of assumptions assumptions about our financial situation. I'm hesitant to list exact numbers, but there's this idea we must have a lot of things we can cut out of the budget. We are actively looking at reducing our expenses, we've stopped using the CC. But a fair portion of our income each month goes to paying off doctor's bills and paying for medications. I also have student loans to pay. Our food budget may be higher than other's because of family food allergies, including managing our son's autism spectrum sensory disorder. 

Thanks for a assuming it must be frivolous unneeded female stuff that I'm forcing on my husband though.

The fact as it stands is that at present, I couldn't pay the rent and have us eat on what I make at my PT jobs. The fact that doesn't concern my husband with a what me worry thing yes agitates and scares me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## John Lee

Starstarfish said:


> Thanks for a assuming it must be frivolous unneeded female stuff that I'm forcing on my husband though.


I don't think I ever said it was "frivolous unneeded female stuff." Maybe your rent is too high. Maybe there are services that you can get cheaper or do without. Maybe you're leasing a nicer car than you need. Maybe you shop at Whole Foods and you can switch to Costco. I have no idea what your finances are, and you don't have to reveal them.

Your husband is not facing the problem, that much is clear. But it also sounds like a situation years in the making. Your husband has been stuck and miserable in this job for a long time, from the sound of things. I am wondering whether your relationship really made it possible for him to feel like he could do something else with his life. You seem to be stuck on the idea that he should be ambitious and want to advance in his job, regardless of what it is or how he feels about it. In the short term, yes, your husband needs to wake up and realize the problems that could be around the corner, but in the long term, you may need to reevaluate what you expect from him.


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## John Lee

Also, is he completely beyond the idea of going back and finishing the theology degree now? Some ministers can actually make a decent living, especially with the tax breaks. Did he completely grow beyond that idea or is that still what's in his heart?


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## RoseAglow

Starstarfish said:


> The fact as it stands is that at present, I couldn't pay the rent and have us eat on what I make at my PT jobs. The fact that doesn't concern my husband with a what me worry thing yes agitates and scares me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, his lack of concern/action is the big flag for me.

Honestly, just about every man I know- with the exception of my friend and a family member- would be sh!tting bricks if they were about to be fired, or even if they received a poor performance evaluation and felt their job might be threatened, when they were the main support of their family. 

For your DH, it sounds like there might be a psychiatric issue behind it, like anxiety/depression or maybe PTSD. Or, maybe he is also on the end of the autism spectrum and is missing social cues and he doesn't realize just how dire his situation is at work- this is pure speculation on my part, of course. 

But...either way, I think you are going to be the Responsible One, the Leader in your family. Maybe if your DH gets treatment he will improve...but you will always need to keep an eye on things.

It sounds like you really have your hands full! Come vent when needed!


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## COGypsy

John Lee said:


> I don't think I ever said it was "frivolous unneeded female stuff." Maybe your rent is too high. Maybe there are services that you can get cheaper or do without. Maybe you're leasing a nicer car than you need. Maybe you shop at Whole Foods and you can switch to Costco. I have no idea what your finances are, and you don't have to reveal them.
> 
> Your husband is not facing the problem, that much is clear. But it also sounds like a situation years in the making. Your husband has been stuck and miserable in this job for a long time, from the sound of things. I am wondering whether your relationship really made it possible for him to feel like he could do something else with his life. You seem to be stuck on the idea that he should be ambitious and want to advance in his job, regardless of what it is or how he feels about it. In the short term, yes, your husband needs to wake up and realize the problems that could be around the corner, but in the long term, *you may need to reevaluate what you expect from him.*


It's unreasonable to expect a grown man to work at least as hard as his wife is willing to in supporting their family? 

I think it's certainly reasonable to work together to find a way to switch careers and follow your dream. But when you've been earning at a particular level and have the responsibility of caring for a child with exceptional ongoing medical needs, I don't think you get the luxury of deciding to drop out of the game and just hope for the best. Sometimes you have to do what you don't want to do to support your family--even if it doesn't leave you happy and fulfilled.


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## LongWalk

The demotion with the pay cut may or may not mean termination is coming soon. Do you see signs that he will lose the position he now has?

I don't see switching careers to become a minister as realistic if you have a handicapped child. How many years will it take to pay off your medical bill debts? Does your family get health insurance through your husband's employer?

Are you losing attraction for him? If your sex life tanks, he'll likely take it as another sign that he is failing. But if you keep your sex life at its usual level, won't your resentment grow?

Please don't take offense at the questions about your budgeting. We had no way of knowing that you are actually already living frugally.


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## Starstarfish

My concern about his current position is that no one in upper management is talking about it. He currently has a position with a title no else has, it's a job undefined as far as specified responsibilities or outcomes. No one can answer about what if anything he'll be eligible for as far as incentive or performance based raises. If this were software it comes across as a Beta. 

As far as debt and medical bills, we have some on payment plans. Yes, currently our insurance is through DH employment, which is probably my biggest concern if he got fired, so we may look into the exchanges come January. Work already said the cost was going up 15% next year anyway.

I've made cuts in the budget, canceled magazines. I'd cancel the newspaper, but it's cost usually balances out with the coupons you get. I coupon, I shop deals. I thought about canceling my gym membership, but I think the $5 a week to go to yoga before my longest work day may help to preserve some part of my sanity. 

As for the rent, my grandmother lives with us, so we have some considerations we may not otherwise have, as we need a 2 bedroom with 2 baths, and need a lower. We held off on plans to move, but long term, our son will need his own room.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## julianne

I don't think the OP's expenses or "lifestyle" should be judged. Not enough information. For example if the OP lived in the SF bay area a small 2 bedroom apartment might cost $3k/month and a small, modest home can easily be a million or more. This would be in a reasonably nice area with decent schools, this is not even the most upscale areas.

OP, I am sorry you are going through this. Has your h mentioned a desire to change careers at all?


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## LongWalk

Since you do not answer the question about intimacy, this leads me to believe that your sex life is dead or dying. 

If this so, how is your husband accepting this? Is this an additional demotion?

If you are still intimate, are you becoming resentful that you are having sex as your desire wanes?

As far as your marriage goes, this will be as important as the financial issues, don't you think?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## COGypsy

LongWalk said:


> Since you do not answer the question about intimacy, this leads me to believe that your sex life is dead or dying.
> 
> If this so, how is your husband accepting this?
> 
> If you are still intimate, are you becoming resentful that you are having sex as your desire wanes?
> 
> As far as your marriage goes, this will be as important as the financial issues, don't you think?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Kind of a creeper question that doesn't have anything to do with her husband's employment, don't you think?


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## LongWalk

Creeper? How so. She is highly conscious of the importance of sex and intimacy. She specifically mentioned it in her first post. Read carefully before you accuse of others being inappropriate.

On TAM it is very common to see that a wife's loss of respect for her husband cause their sex life to tank. This opens up unmet needs that create an environment in which bad choices occur.

TAM is anonymous. You can discuss anything and if people only asked easy polite questions they wouldn't get far. I think the OP quiet sharp. She is thinking about this question. It is painful and she has perhaps not decided exactly what her conclusions are.

If the OP requests that the question be dropped, I will not pose it again. Here is what she wrote: 

*H has mood swings between up-beat energy and soul-crushing ennui. He self-punishes for deemed failings at work or life in general by refusing to eat*. Two years ago he had a panic attack at work, which facilitated him going to the hospital. He transferred into a different position (or was transferred there's some sort of grey line there) and things got better. He was told then to begin IC, but refused to go. About a year ago, he began another position, and things have gone downhill from there. Problems with his boss, problems with co-workers,* he feels defeated and unable to fix the situation*. I try to be sympathetic, I listen to him when talks about work, I've tried to attend events with him and be supportive and to help his business,* I've tried to up the sex to help his stress level*.


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## mace17

John Lee said:


> If a banking job plus two p/t jobs are not "enough" then the lifestyle is too expensive imo.


I don't know what type of banking job the husband has or how high up he is, but I can tell you from experience that lower levels of banking jobs (teller, loan officer, supervisor) don't pay enough to live on. I was unemployed for almost a year due to a layoff, and out of desperation I took a job as a teller. I lasted about 6 months and then had to find something that paid better because I made just enough to pay for daycare and that was it. There was not much point in me having a job just to pay for the daycare I needed to have the job. Unless you are quite high up in the banking world, the pay is not that good.


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## Starstarfish

LongWalk said:


> Since you do not answer the question about intimacy, this leads me to believe that your sex life is dead or dying.
> 
> If this so, how is your husband accepting this? Is this an additional demotion?
> 
> If you are still intimate, are you becoming resentful that you are having sex as your desire wanes?
> 
> As far as your marriage goes, this will be as important as the financial issues, don't you think?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Actually, I didn't answer that before because I typed my previous response on break at work, and didn't want the potential of a coworker seeing what I was typing and adding to any work drama. Work knows in general we are in counseling (I had to tell them why I can't work the closing Monday shifts due to my appointment), but I wanted to keep my sex life out of it.

Our sex life has waned only in regards to the fact that on days I don't get home until 11 PM, I'm not interested. But overall, I'd say we are still average at three times a week or so.

I suppose I compartmentalize things. If we ignore the elephant in the room, me and my husband get along fine. And this has been the MO for a long time, as long as "real" issues aren't discussed, everything is fine. My issue isn't that I don't desire him. I don't resent having sex with him despite this (and other) problem(s). I love him and frankly, why punish myself with no sex just to be more agitated about something else. 

My issue is that my husband has hated his job since before we got married, but refuses to do anything about it. I sympathize a great deal about working a job you hate. But for me, my goal is to make it temporary as I wait for my license. My husband has nothing else he wants to do, wants to make no effort to get a different job or even change careers. I'd support any of those things, if there were some sort of plan or direction. But a I hate this, it upsets me, but I can't or won't make any effort to change it is beyond frustrating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blonde

God grant me 
serenity to accept the things I cannot change
courage to change the things I can
and wisdom to know the difference


Starstarfish said:


> My issue is that my husband has hated his job since before we got married, but refuses to do anything about it. I sympathize a great deal about working a job you hate. But for me, my goal is to make it temporary as I wait for my license. My husband has nothing else he wants to do, wants to make no effort to get a different job or even change careers. I'd support any of those things, if there were some sort of plan or direction. But a I hate this, it upsets me, but I can't or won't make any effort to change it is beyond frustrating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


IMO you are wasting a lot of energy and sacrificing your own serenity fretting over something you cannot change (him and his job situation)

You have power over your own decisions, that's it.

And SSF, BTW I identify with the whole religious backstory... I made *huge* career sacrifices to be a SAHM and submissive christian wife and my H spent many years with constant job struggles and poorly paid for someone with his credentials.

His choices are his but if I was in your shoes I would not waste my time nor energy on a low paying miserable stopgap retail job for myself... How about getting a masters in education to increase your credentials and open more doors? In my case, my husband fought against me re-tooling for a decent well-paid job. At least your H is not undermining you that way...


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## A Bit Much

If I were SSF, and feeling pinched financially the LAST thing on my mind would be to pursue a Masters Degree. Maybe down the line when things settle down... if they settle down and finances weren't so up in the air. 

This is damage control. The 2 jobs are a way to stop the leak. No they aren't the greatest, no they aren't what one WANTS to be doing, but maybe it's what has to be done until another plan can be formulated.


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## sinnister

Is all of this because your husband feels slighted that he didnt have the opportunity to do what he truly loves? Very few of us do! What makes a man is picking yourself up and going to work to provide for your loved ones anyways.


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## Starstarfish

To clarify, I already have a Master's Degree, which I finished in January 2012 (I was completing my thesis during my SAHM stint, so it took me longer than it likely should have, alas. But it was finished. :smthumbup I took a Continuing Ed class this summer to keep up on professional development hours for my license. 

It's mostly just a waiting game on the paper work at this point. The state is still reviewing apps from August at this point, so ... who knows if it will be completed in time for this school year at that rate. 



> At least your H is not undermining you that way...


No, he isn't. It took me a long time though, I think to come out from under the shadow of the initial disapproval of my employment efforts early in our marriage and the moral failing/poor christian/bad wife vibe that was put on the whole thing. I have a streak towards co-dependency and thus, that original lack of acceptance affected me more than it might have another, and only after my own IC (which I originally started because of post-partum) a few years ago, was I able to deal with some of that, and find the "steam" to finish my degree and more actively pursue employment. 

For a long time, I focused more on DH not disapproving, and was in denial about the long-term feasibility of our finances, I think. The financial quandary is really just one aspect of the issues me and DH have, it was just the issue most pressing when I started this thread. I'm sure the entire situation likely needs more background, I'm just not certain where to start getting into even deeper waters.


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## Emerald

His breakdowns & some of his behaviors you have described could be indicators of a mental illness. Only a professional can dx.

Also, a lack of concern regarding your financial family financial future could be indicative of depression. Hopefully his IC can pinpoint the situation.


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## Starstarfish

I realize this thread generates interest in spurts, but to clear up some questions:



> Would it be possible for him to volunteer at church in some capacity to try and offset his missing fulfillment from not being in the ministry??


We tried that early in our marriage, he was the Treasurer for our former church, and I assisted him on the downlow. I helped make up spreadsheets, etc as between the two of us, I was the more Excel/Access knowledgeable. Issues were raised about my involvement, as the ministry is for men, and women should have no authority in religious situations. He would go to meetings and I wasn't invited. I made it slip once about my involvement by trying to explain when DH faltered answering a question about a chart, and the whole thing kind of imploded. 
When elections came around, someone else was elected the next time. 



> Let your husband coast for a while. Does he play sports? Can you get him physically fitter? Maybe he will be more appealing if he is stronger?


No, he doesn't play sports. Physically he's in fine shape. And contrary to this widely held TAM belief, a man being in "alpha" shape doesn't suddenly make all of the life issues disappear. No, I don't secretly long to be abused by a ripple-chested dark triad narcissist who hates me and I can't get enough of it. 



> I mean it sounds a little like you think it's HIS job to accomplish YOUR goals. Have you ever considered how that might make him feel? Do you wonder if he might not resent you a little for that?


How is having our child having his own bedroom and thinking about his future only my goal? Is it really that unreasonable to expect that would be his goal as well? If he resents me for expecting him to be concerned about his son, I'd say we have far deeper problems than just the bills. 



> Does he have any sort of spiritual guidance at all? You said you two completely left the church/religion, and that might be a good thing. But...what has replaced that sense of comfort, that faith-building? Are you willing to scout out a new religious home that suits you, with or without him? You might have to lead and take over being the household's spiritual leader for a while, but it seems like that's a huge hole that's left open.


He maintains his faith privately, does Bible reading, reads devotionals online, etc. I no longer find comfort in religion, to be honest. Not that I've become Atheist, but that attempting to conform to the social expectations of a group of people in order to communicate with a God who can hear every thought seems moot to me. I was raised Catholic, and I think part of me misses the feeling of mystery and wonder in faith. 

To feel as if I'm really going to be part of something more than myself, rather than just going to appease other human beings I don't like anyways. I feel as if to have a social spiritual life on the local scene, I have to be "fake" and pretend I'm someone I'm not. And I think lying to be religious seems ... way wrong. 

And honestly, its hard for me to ponder wanting to get back into the "Men vs Women" religious BS, considering that was at least a contributing factor to what lead us here to begin with.


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## LongWalk

The church spread sheet incident was a good illustration of a fault line within your relationship. Your husband has a traditional view of women. Yet he is unable to be that leader. You are able in fill in for him. This may cause him depression.

You say your husband need not workout. You are wrong. All of us need exercise. Endorphines improve our mood. You don't want your husband to be muscular. Why?

You have read about men changing themselves to be more attractive. You see it as a form of manipulation. In truth, you married a man whom you to some degree dominate. You are then dissatisfied that he is not more alpha. Remember to be good in the corporate environment you must have testosterone to defend yourself.

You should read Bagdon's thread

Whatever his faults your husband has integrity.


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## BFGuru

I don't know where you live, but I am separated from my husband and with his child support make barely over poverty level. I have two children on the spectrum and am following a highly specialized diet. I would be more than happy to talk with you about cost effective food items that have worked for us. And recipe share if need be. It doesn't all have to be expensive. Some of it is, but you cut costs where you can. Feel free to PM me if you are interested.


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## Starstarfish

> You say your husband need not workout. You are wrong. All of us need exercise. Endorphines improve our mood. You don't want your husband to be muscular. Why?


The original inference seemed to be if he worked out and was more muscular would I be more physically attracted to him in relation to the question if my love was dying and did I (or was I going to) refuse to start having sex. I've never been particularly attracted to muscular men, no. (Maybe that makes me unusual.) I do not feel a physical draw there. I've always had more of a draw towards personality and intelligence over your typical "alpha male" physical ideal. So would DH getting more visibly muscular make him more physically attractive to me, no. 

Would him getting more exercise and gaining some muscle be beneficial to him? I'm sure it would be. On a physical and mental level. However, I think the caloric intake and food issue needs to be addressed first, as his current solution is to not really eat any substantial breakfast and then go for early morning jogs (his father likes to jog, so, I'm guessing that's a learned thing.) I can only imagine the dip in blood sugar that occurs later doesn't help his mood at work.


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## LongWalk

How far does he run?


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## Blonde

Starstarfish said:


> To clarify, I already have a Master's Degree, which I finished in January 2012 (I was completing my thesis during my SAHM stint, so it took me longer than it likely should have, alas. But it was finished. :smthumbup I took a Continuing Ed class this summer to keep up on professional development hours for my license.


Awesome! Pat on the back for you!!!

As you are sharing, I identify very much with your story, only you seem to have woke up and smelled the coffee a lot earlier than I (when it comes to sexism to keep a woman "in her place" amongst evangelicals).

Something I hear in your story which sounds quite similar to mine is that I used to spend quite a lot of my time and energy "helping" him. You did it with the treasurer job. I "helped" my husband by looking at want ads (before the internet), polishing up his resume and cover letters and making them look and sound sharp and professional, collecting things like his reference letters, transcripts, certifications, list of publications into a portfolio for job applications...

I "helped" him get numerous jobs over the years. From my perspective, he sabotaged his jobs because of authority issues (didn't do what THEY wanted him to do but what he wanted instead). Hand in hand with that, the fact that I "helped" him set me up in a "mothering" kind of role. 

Finally, after the 9th job loss or so (2004 and I was emotionally devastated!- we had a family of 10 on a single income) I completely STOPPED helping him, absolutely REFUSED despite his attempt to triangulate me into it. He proceeded to find himself a series of short lived jobs and for @ 18mos was in the best paying job he ever had (6 figures) until he really went down in flames in 2008 in the great economic downturn (and miserable morals- using porn, going to strip clubs with his boss, and having an affair with the janitoress in her van in the parking lot). Keep in mind this is a CHRISTIAN man- never misses church on Sunday and believes that men are vastly superior to women and must be the leader and women need to be silent, blah blah BLECH! Was a missionary, was a professor at christian colleges.

So, boy do I hear you about church. I stay away too!

My husband's job issues, authority issues, immorality issues... a lot of it was related to childhood baggage. Abusive, rejecting, critical daddy, exposure to hard core porn since preschool (if not sodomized based on acting out he was doing in preschool). His daddy placed a high value on money and zero value on book learning (was a farmer who did not graduate high school). Accused his asthmatic son (my husband) of being weak, wimpy, and gay and wrote him out of the will along with his sisters. His brother inherited everything upon his dad's death in 2003. His dad would have been very proud of him making 6 figures and going to strip clubs with the boss and having an affair with the janitoress in a van in the parking lot. He reached the pinnacle of life according to his daddy.

Long story-eh?

All that to say, step out of the way and let your H hit his bottom. Stop trying to protect, mother, enable him. It just delays the inevitable...

During and after my H's descent into hell on earth... I basically did a 180- took care of the kids, went to school for myself, got a career going for me, spent time with friends, traveled some, got fit, got a new wardrobe, etc, etc, etc... Live my life and be happy and try as much as possible to tune out his crapola


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## LongWalk

Good post, Blonde.

Church is very hard for us atheists to embrace. If I lived in the Bible Belt I would consider going just to network. My impression of Sunday services is that at least some significant portion of the people attending are checking out the opposite sex, daydreaming, seeking affirmation.

How many times on TAM have the cheaters met a church? More than once.


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## Blonde

Yeah LW. It's awkward because I can feel this attitude coming from church people as if I am a project they need to work on... 

H is a member in good standing and I am the black sheep :scratchhead:

One woman went to great lengths defending him. After all, it's not like he's a SERIAL cheater still cheating. He ONLY did it in 1990 when he was a missionary and in 2008. She doesn't know about the sitting in bars in 2013 being solicited for sex often by different women by his own account and expecting me to be "proud of him" for his self control turning down all the wicked female temptresses...
(as if he wasn't flirting- do I look THAT DUMB )

Christian- pthooey! (BTW I still love God and consider myself a follower of Jesus but I only feel relief for withdrawing from church)


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## Starstarfish

> How far does he run?


I'm not 100%, as he does it before the rest of the house is up. (I generally get up at 6 or when Jr. does, whatever comes first.) But, to my knowledge, he originally used to head to the local park and ride and back, which is likely 5 miles round trip.



> During and after my H's descent into hell on earth... I basically did a 180- took care of the kids, went to school for myself, got a career going for me, spent time with friends, traveled some, got fit, got a new wardrobe, etc, etc, etc... Live my life and be happy and try as much as possible to tune out his crapola


I've been working on this to some degree. I am working on getting more fit (I've lost almost 60 lbs at this point), and I'm working on a new wardrobe piece by piece, using the employee discount from my retail job. The difficulty at the moment is my career being kind of "on hold" until my license gets processed, so I feel kind of "stuck." I'm not sure how until that's finished to not be worried about DHs crapola, as he's still the main income earner. 



> Yeah LW. It's awkward because I can feel this attitude coming from church people as if I am a project they need to work on...


This ... times five. It was about how I dressed, and how I spoke, and what I cooked, they were going to "fix" me. I was going to learn to be a "real woman."


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## Blonde

Starstarfish said:


> This ... times five. It was about how I dressed, and how I spoke, and what I cooked, they were going to "fix" me. I was going to learn to be a "real woman."


why you uppity woman, you! 

((((((((hugs))))))))


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## Thound

Yea Blondie is back!!!


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## Starstarfish

> why you uppity woman, you!


Apparently the secret to acceptance is less salt potatoes or pot roast and more strange combinations of cold noodles with mayo and things involving whipped cream that go in Jello-molds.


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## Starstarfish

Directing some personal answers from a discussion over here:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ole-financial-support-marriage-budgeting.html

I'd say that some of the issues hit on in that post have been part of the difficulty between my husband and I over the course of our marriage, we have different ideas of what a "Need" versus a "Want" is - a difference that only intensified during the time I was a SAHM. 

Specifically answering some of SA's questions here:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...l-support-marriage-budgeting.html#post5689161



> Did you & he talk about this before you married...or was it something that changed afterwards on his part ?


Yes, we talked about this prior to marriage, and he seemed to be "on board" to my dreams about having a house, going on trips, making memories, etc. But after we were married, and the further involved in church we got, the more this view changed or was presented differently. And discussions about money and "wants vs needs" started to have a morality discussion attached to them. 

My husband does seem to feel that because "Financial Security" is more of my concern than his, that any work towards accomplishing security (versus living paycheck to paycheck and having debt) is "for my benefit." Including working towards home ownership or renting a larger space so our son can get his own room. He sees that as working towards "my goals" because it isn't his goal.


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## ConanHub

Blonde has some really great advice. I feel for you with the whole church scenario. We started out in a church that seemed nice, but the longer we were there, the stranger it got. I noticed I was "closer " to God if I wore a tie! No kidding! Also, there was absolutely toxic people when it came to good marriages and financial issues. Infidelity was rampant and divorce.

Needless to say, my wife and I eventually got the hell out of Dodge before we accrued any permanent damage. I hope your H can get his act together, your concerns are very valid. Is the church environment affecting his ability to cope with real life? Hope the best for you. Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

Starstarfish said:


> *Yes, we talked about this prior to marriage, and he seemed to be "on board" to my dreams about having a house, going on trips, making memories, etc.* But after we were married, and the further involved in church we got, the more this view changed or was presented differently. And discussions about money and "wants vs needs" started to have a morality discussion attached to them.


 You sound you wanted the same things I wanted..how I envisioned our future...the home ownership, family vacations we could afford..making memories... 

But *HE* changed afterwards...kinda a "bait & switch" you never seen coming .....his views/ vision changing along with the religious conditioning...I can only imagine how you must *resent* the church's influence here - for messing with your intended shared marital dreams like this.... 



> My husband does seem to feel that because "Financial Security" is more of my concern than his, that any work towards accomplishing security (versus living paycheck to paycheck and having debt) is "for my benefit." Including working towards home ownership or renting a larger space so our son can get his own room. *He sees that as working towards "my goals" because it isn't his goal*.


On 2 separate pages here....What are *HIS Goals* StarStarFish? Can he even list them...and is there enough of a plan to even make them happen... even a seed of a plan.. .from reading this thread, it doesn't appear so much... 

I find your goals are very very very reasonable... any women /wife/ Mother would want the same, lets say except someone who wanted to live in a religious commune situation or working for a circus.... surely even in this Church ...most strive & live these same dreams...so I wonder what led to his changing his views so much...

It is a division you face for sure in this... and with his falling apart, this paycut...the medical bills, your sons care, college loans, needing special food for allergies, this is not an easy budget by any means.... you are carrying your marriage right now.. no easy answers on this one...is there.. 

That's great you have a Degree though! :smthumbup:.. as you continue working these 2 jobs...I hope you can find time to get your resume in other places so this can lead to 1 Job...to take some of the stress down...what else can you do right now ..... I hope it all works out.. 

Of course...it's not a joy to be stuck in a Job we don't like or enjoy... (like how your husband feels) but we have to make the best of it -when we have family... work behind the scenes while pushing ourselves every day to keep the finances rolling in till we can make our move - to another position.... If we all fell down on the job when we didn't like it...every other family we know would collapse... We need resilience in our work ethic too...just as you are doing now...working 2 jobs...you are a go -getter...and nothing wrong with a little venting during hard times.. you need an outlet too... this is a darker time for you & he right now.. at a true crossroads..


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## LongWalk

Have you watched the Bergman movie Fanny and Alexander?


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## Starstarfish

> But HE changed afterwards...kinda a "bait & switch" you never seen coming .....his views/ vision changing along with the religious conditioning...I can only imagine how you must resent the church's influence here - for messing with your intended shared marital dreams like this....


Yes, I do feel a kind of "bait and switch." I mentioned this during our last MC session. That I based hopes and dreams of our future based on what DH said were also his hopes and dreams, and then increasingly found out my vision wasn't accurate. And to me, it feels no less devastating than when men mention being "baited and switched" about sex. That I based my ideas about our compatibility on a vision that was false. And what I still struggle with was whether or not our time in church really changed his ideas, or just encouraged him to tell how he really feels, rather than presenting a "front" that he thought I'd find more acceptable. 

I resent being being given the "men are the leadership of the household" speech, that when I worked previously (before my son was born) I wasn't supposed to tell people or discuss it. But when things fall apart, I have to step into the role I was chastised about for so long. I don't know how not to resent that part of it. That I wasn't good enough, and I was a source of shame and embarrassment, until my input is required. 

Further, if I'm being totally honest, it makes me feel a level of retroactive jealousy. Not, as one might typically use the term to be jealous of a spouse's pre-marriage sexuality, but it makes me jealous thinking of the things that DH planned for and executed with his first wife. Caribbean honeymoon, furniture shopping, home planning. It makes me feel like I'm not "really" his wife, but some kind of concubine, that he has no interest in planning a life with me. No memories, no dreams. Like they didn't work out with her (the first wife) so why bother at all. 

Today, it's kind of all getting to me, and making me kind of depressed. A customer was over-the-top last night (it would be a whole story for a thread in and of itself), and I'm just sitting here, kind of overwhelmed by it all. It's hard to tell myself that getting yelled at like that is worth it, when I'm the only one who seems to care, and I'm not making much. 



> Have you watched the Bergman movie Fanny and Alexander?


Iisn't that like the longest movie ever made? No, I haven't.


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## LongWalk

It is on YouTube. The bait and switch is there. The marriage without joy or dreams
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blonde

Starstarfish said:


> Today, it's kind of all getting to me, and making me kind of depressed. A customer was over-the-top last night (it would be a whole story for a thread in and of itself), and I'm just sitting here, kind of overwhelmed by it all. It's hard to tell myself that getting yelled at like that is worth it, when I'm the only one who seems to care, and I'm not making much.


That job may *not *be worth it. If it was me, I would not put myself through a high level of stress and angst for dead end low paid work. 

I did do CNA work for awhile, but that was a steppingstone on the way to RN.

I felt bait and switched by Christianity because of all the nice passages @ husbands LOVE your wife and my H (seminary grad, missionary, and prof at Xan college) has had two seasons of unfaithfulness in the midst of decades of porn use.

Could have married a "worldly" guy and maybe done better :scratchhead:

So, bluntly, why are you martyring for the low pay and aggravation? Why not brainstorm and think of something a master degreed teacher can do on the side to earn a few bucks? How about tutoring? Or maybe some online business providing materials for homeschoolers?


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## Blonde

Starstarfish said:


> I resent being being given the "men are the leadership of the household" speech


Oh yeah, and women are stupid, easily deceived, and responsible for all the evil in the world 

IME you get to a point where you just kick YOURSELF for being such a sucker for terrible theology. You are sooooooo far ahead of me. I wasted DECADES in bondage to the crap.

My husband still gets on his bully pulpit about male superiority. OMG, you should hear his prayers sometimes :banghead: He prays for ME and its a good thing that burning at the stake is illegal or I'd be toast 

I couldn't give a rat's behind what he thinks anymore. Instead of getting angry, its amusing and I can't believe how stupid I was to actually buy the party line.... I am still a believer but I think God is horribly misrepresented by people who claim to represent Him/Her.

Resentment takes too much energy SSF. And its too hard on your own psyche and body. Take that energy and channel it into constructive activities that make you feel good about yourself.


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## Starstarfish

> How about tutoring? Or maybe some online business providing materials for homeschoolers?


The part-time teaching job I have now is for tutoring. 

In addition I applied and went through a first and second interview with a tutoring company, to do in addition. I thought it went well, but I got the thanks but no thanks email. They did imply it was because they are pretty saturated in my subject area at the moment, but if I could do test prep, they may have openings. (As its been a number of years since I took the "old version" of the SAT, I'd need to retake it and the ACT to be eligible for test prep.) I applied for a few tutoring positions at local community colleges as well.

(Lol, one has been "Open" since July, isn't posted as closed, and it never sent out the auto-message that it was filled, so I have no idea what went on there. Called HR once about it, and they were "reviewing prospects" and would be picking soon, that was in August.)

I hadn't thought about the homeschool curriculum thing. Do you have any more info about that? Are there particular companies that offer that? Or is it more of an individual start-up kind of thing?




> So, bluntly, why are you martyring for the low pay and aggravation?


I suppose, when I first applied, I thought it would be a win-win. Earn some extra money, while getting a great discount to fix the fact I had no clothes to wear after my weight loss. I think some part of me was under some misguided and naive thought that the relatively high price point of the merchandise at the store would scare away the kind of crazy I used to get at my last retail job. :rofl: I realized it just inspires customers with a different flavor of crazy - the entitled kind. 

:smthumbup:

On the upside, they finally updated the state DPI website to show that they are up to October 22 as the submit date they are currently looking at Initial Cert apps from. Meaning I should be in the next batch. (Mine was received Oct 29)


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## RClawson

"men are the leadership of the household"

From a religious standpoint this is a correct principle if they can "lead in righteousness". This is a tall order indeed for most men. Even "Christian" men. In order for this to work A strong wife is required to let said leader know when he is off the reservation and not walking in the ways of God. If those two principles are not in harmony then the first is not possible.


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## ReformedHubby

RClawson said:


> "men are the leadership of the household"
> 
> From a religious standpoint this is a correct principle if they can "lead in righteousness". This is a tall order indeed for most men. Even "Christian" men. In order for this to work A strong wife is required to let said leader know when he is off the reservation and not walking in the ways of God. If those two principles are not in harmony then the first is not possible.


I am very religious and the man shall lead the marriage scriptures have always bothered me. I also think a lot of men abuse it and use it as a license to bully. My primary gripe is that not everyone is equipped to be a leader. In a relationship if you want to lead you can't just say I want to lead because I have a penis. You actually have to demonstrate and prove that you are capable of leading. Its that way in any organization, even an organization of two. 

In all honesty I don't think most women would have an issue letting the man take the lead as long as the man is holding things down financially, making smart decisions for the future, and being a loving supportive husband.


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## LongWalk

My father had a very large and fragile ego. To compensate he engaged in projects and activities to save others and to save the world. Fine but not at the expense of your family and others.

The motivation for this quasi religious fanaticism is emotional insecurity. All the believers in a church or an entire nation can never betray you like individuals in real life. Thus, if you divorce your husband, he will rationalize and say that your betrayed the faith. He will consider you to be a bad person if you complain about his religious mania.

My mother struggled her entire life trying to understand why my father p!issed away a huge amount of time and money fighting two causes. In the end after many years, she concluded that the causes did not really exist as part of a plan; there was no plan. There was no possibility of success because success was defined unrealistically.

If my mother had left my father, he would have crumbled. She held the family together and even humored him while pressuring him to cut back his fanaticism. He never renounced his craziness, but as Alzheimer's crept up and stole his brain, he lost the manic energy.

I am only now facing the consequences. I am like my father. I have wasted so much of my life in emotional confusion. It was the model he gave me. I see it clearly since coming to TAM, but it does not restore my lost childhood.

You may be betraying your children by allowing him to pass on the message of his behavior. 

I think that you should be straight with him. He needs serious IC. If he understands that the priority is himself, family, work, then he need not fritter himself in the false community of church. 

I am an atheist but I understand how church gives people a anchor. You husband needs to understand that church is place for discussion and socializing. It is not a substitute for pratical values.


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## young_lady

SimplyAmorous said:


> I find your goals are very very very reasonable... any women /wife/ Mother would want the same, lets say except someone who wanted to live in a religious commune situation or working for a circus.... surely even in this Church ...most strive & live these same dreams...*so I wonder what led to his changing his views so much...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't ready this whole thread, but see alot of familiar themes with my XH. I never wanted or expected anything more than the average middle class life style, which considering we were both college educated and came from average middle class families, didn't seem at all unreasonable. In fact, in the beginning, his financial goals were loftier than mine.
> 
> That began to change when he realized that meeting those goals took work, delayed gratfication, self-discipline, sacrifce and occasionally doing things he was not thrilled about. He really just thought that all those things would just happen. When they didn't , I suddenly I became "all about money". When he left he said he thought we could have made it if...and I quote..."it wasn't for my *stupid* need for financial security". We also went through the church, man is the head of house phase...but it really was just used as a justification for him not to have to consider mine or our kids needs or interests.
> 
> Sounds to me like the OP's husband is doing the same thing. Financial concerns suddenly become unimportant or shallow when they realize they cannot achieve the goals without some work and sacrifice.
Click to expand...


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## Starstarfish

Just to note - we no longer attend church and haven't for two some years. Thus to a degree, some of the previous issues we had in connection are now mollified. (IE we no longer "roles of men and women" conversation.) The issue now is dealing with the after-effects of decisions made during that time "under the influence" including a lot of deep-seated emotional hurt on my part.

However, to explain how some of this worked in the past: 



> In order for this to work A strong wife is required to let said leader know when he is off the reservation and not walking in the ways of God.


Which only works if the "leader" recognizes the opinion of the wife, strong or otherwise as valid. This in itself was a bone of contention for some time during our relationship, as I wasn't seen as able to determine the "ways of God" as I was a convert to DH's denomination, which prides itself (as I think all Christian subgroups do) on knowing the "right way" to interpret the ways of God. As a woman, this group taught that I should have no authority, as a woman to whom they viewed my husband as "unevenly cleaved" the situation was worse. 

Which goes with ... 



> My primary gripe is that not everyone is equipped to be a leader. In a relationship if you want to lead you can't just say I want to lead because I have a penis. You actually have to demonstrate and prove that you are capable of leading.
> 
> In all honesty I don't think most women would have an issue letting the man take the lead as long as the man is holding things down financially, making smart decisions for the future, and being a loving supportive husband.


And here was our central issue. DH grew up being told his whole life that simply because he had a penis, he should be in charge. That his opinion, regardless of how smart or feasible it was or wasn't was inherently more valid. And that my only appropriate reaction as a "surrendered wife" was to simply accept it, and to assume he was doing things for the right reasons, and that God would guide him. 

However, this opinion was not the one he expressed when we were dating. After we got married, and the more involved in church we got, this opinion came out more and more. I got tired of being the "bad guy" and thus, after I was pregnant with my son, we tried things that way - I worked on being the "Donna Reed" complacent, SAHM. Except, there was never a blossoming of his leadership. Me stepping back didn't suddenly change his base personality or thought process, instead it led to no one "keeping things on the reservation."

It led, for example, to three subsequent purchases of used cars without doing a third-party inspection before purchasing them in a state with no lemon law. Why? Because DH has a fair touch of naivete, trusts people, and "had a good feeling." In each case, it led to having a car that cost a good deal of money for repairs almost as soon as it rolled off the lot (our record was three days, wherein one of these winning autos dropped its suspension while DH was driving. We then had to take that back to the dealer and pay -more money- for another used car.) 



> Could have married a "worldly" guy and maybe done better


I have this thought from time to time. When I see on Facebook friends who have spouses who are more grounded in this world versus the next, and how they are homeowners, going on family vacations, and seem genuinely happy. 

Thank you for your heartfelt insight, LongWalk. 

The frittering with hobbies and wasting money describes my FIL to a T. I always viewed it as his way to escape dealing with a wife he seems to want nothing to do with, and six children he has little in common with. This is more my fear for me and DH. 

Both of our sets of parents displayed dysfunctional marriages, though very different kinds of dysfunction. Mine was more of the loud, throwing stuff, disappearing for the weekend kind. 

My in-laws marriage is dysfunctional in a way that's far more subtle. They are roommates who aren't even really friends. They have no shared interests and no dreams. MIL openly bemoans they never have date night, as he's always busy "with something else." He won't take her to the movies as he "doesn't see the value in that." He has always driven nice cars (now he's got three - and his summer car is a brand new Mustang), but with a family of 8, they never had a dishwasher because that was a "frivolous" expense. He simply ignores her, and doesn't basically consider her. She talks, and he rolls his eyes.

And this is my greatest fear. My greatest fear is that is the example DH has, and that at his core, that's really the kind of marriage he wants and expects. When I've confronted him, he says that isn't true, but things he says from time to time give me pause.


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## Starstarfish

> I find your goals are very very very reasonable... any women /wife/ Mother would want the same, lets say except someone who wanted to live in a religious commune situation or working for a circus.... surely even in this Church ...most strive & live these same dreams...so I wonder what led to his changing his views so much...


To answer this part. I think because on his "original path" these goals would have been easier. In our former church, all male members serving as church assistants and teachers at the church school are considered ministers. 

They are thus considered clergy/ministers for purposes of taxes and further in addition to their salaries receive housing or a housing stipend and assistance purchasing/getting down payments on homes because of the encouragement to have large families. (Our record in church is 12.) Thus while many of these men at base don't make more than DH's salary, the additional perks allow them to have a situation that otherwise isn't feasible for others on the same amount of money. 

I think it's just easier for DH to go into the "your goals aren't reasonable" mode rather than finally delve into accepting that the past has had consequences that will require work to rectify. I think it gives him an out to not think about the past.


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## Blonde

Starstarfish said:


> He has always driven nice cars (now he's got three - and his summer car is a brand new Mustang), but with a family of 8, they never had a dishwasher because that was a "frivolous" expense. He simply ignores her, and doesn't basically consider her. She talks, and he rolls his eyes..


^^that is how my marriage was, only I didn't have proper hot water, clothes dryer, and kitchen, while H would drop 3K we couldn't afford on another antique tractor (he has 4 or 5 of them)


Starstarfish said:


> And this is my greatest fear. My greatest fear is that is the example DH has, and that at his core, that's really the kind of marriage he wants and expects. When I've confronted him, he says that isn't true, but things he says from time to time give me pause.


What a man "wants" and what he "needs" in order to be a healthy functional *adult* are often two different things methinks...

You don't have to have a marriage like your inlaws because you don't have to go along with it like your MIL does. She was complicit by doormatting for it. BTDT. 

I have the same husband but I no longer tolerate being deprived of things I need while he spoils himself.


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## LongWalk

It fascinates me that faith in miracles exists, immaculate conception being one of the more incredible tales but ever wine out of water. And this church calculates the tax advantages of an otherwise unreal lifestyle.

I can understand that it must almost feel like imprisonment to be that social network.


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## Blonde

Starstarfish said:


> And here was our central issue. DH grew up being told his whole life that simply because he had a penis, he should be in charge. That his opinion, regardless of how smart or feasible it was or wasn't was inherently more valid. And that my only appropriate reaction as a "surrendered wife" was to simply accept it, and to assume he was doing things for the right reasons, and that God would guide him.


That whole system keeps men arrested as entitled immature toddlers in adult male bodies IMO and IME. 

The "surrendered"/submissive wife is very much complicit in failing to stand up to him and be her husband's equal (and God intended the relationship to be equal. Just look at Gen 1:26-28 as well as the real meaning of help MEET/equal)


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## Blonde

Starstarfish said:


> I have this thought from time to time. When I see on Facebook friends who have spouses who are more grounded in this world versus the next, and how they are homeowners, going on family vacations, and seem genuinely happy.


Not sure that financial security is as much from being "worldly" as a fruit of maturity and "common sense"?

I've seen plenty of people outside church circles who are terrible with finances.

And SSF, appearances can be very deceiving... The old adage is true that "Money does not buy happiness". I have a cousin (who met her Christian husband at Bob Jones University) lives in a 2 million dollar home in the Hamptons and her husband once compared her unfavorably with me as they have a very burdensome stressful 10K/month mortgage, she gets her hairstyled at $250 a pop, covets plastic surgery, drives a Mercedes, etc... while he saw me as "low maintenance" driving around with my 8 children in my used 15 passenger bus and going home to my paid for <100K fixer upper house.

You should listen to Dave Ramsey on the radio sometime. It's shocking to me how people with very high incomes (6 figures) are still in debt up to their eyeballs living paycheck to paycheck.


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## Starstarfish

I always tended to discount Dave Ramsey because how he was the praised financial guru at the old church, (his series was what they used during financial seminars for couples, and his ideas on budgeting to donate/tithe monthly.) 

Here's our update after the past few weeks of IC/MC:

- We are working through some counselor-recommended work books together. He has a IC book about his anxiety issues, and we are working on one together about Food and Emotions (see below about why.)

- DH has started to put out job applications into other related fields/positions that he feels are more to his interests. We've agreed that at this time, any accepted positions have to at least be offering the salary/benefits of the current position.

- Things are starting to improve somewhat for me at my retail job. We've hired additional help for the holidays, so I'm no longer the "fresh meat." I've learned to find a peace with the Assistant Manager who is kind of a crank. (She isn't very sociable and seems to lack a sense of humor, and sees talking as laziness, so - I've learned to not attempt to engage her in any conversations above what is neccessary.) 

On the other hand, things are starting to look unsteady at my current tutoring position. They've hired another tutor, and are now discussing if we'll be on a rotation (cutting hours). We are supposed to have additional training soon, but don't seem to understand that because all of us work second jobs, we need more than four days notice. 

- We've had some open conversations about "triggering" conversations that DH and I have had in the past. One particular conversation several years ago was in regards to a budgeting discussion. DH expressed his thoughts that we should reduce the food budget, and that I had to "make sacrifices" if we were going to accomplish future goals. For a long time, I was simply angry and resentful about that conversation without thinking about why. 

I realized that it triggered me back to my childhood. Without getting into all the details right now, I had a step-father who was very controlling about money and by extension, food. He felt that because my biological father paid no child support for my upkeep, I was an undue burden on the family resources. And one way to reduce my burden was to ensure I wasn't having more than "my fair share" of food. He put locks on the fridge and the pantry. He thought my food allergies we "excuses" to get special treatment, so he'd sneak fish into my food to see if I'd react (which I did, often violently), because he thought it was "all in my head." It led me to disordered and emotional eating, as I learned to overeat as an act of defiance.

It took me years to realize that I was only punishing myself, and to overcome my overeating. But for me, food is still a sensitive subject, and that years ago when DH had said what he did, I internalized it as someone else who thought "you aren't worth feeding." 

- DH mean while has his own food hangups from childhood. As a child from a family of 8 on one income, food was a struggle. Physical locks weren't used to prevent people from accessing it, but instead the family religiosity was. It became a system of self-control where your guilt kept you from eating too much, because otherwise you are a sinner/glutton. 

DH then has a hard time as seeing food as something to be enjoyed, he expects it to have minimum costs for maximum benefit. (In a recent conversation, he told me has a calculated $ per calorie calculation, and food above that isn't "worth it.") Taste is mostly irrelevant. Hence the triggering conversation about food all those years ago. He has in his mind what we should be spending and sees costs above that as excessive. That it's a willful choice. 

When, really - the quality/nutrition of food we purchase for the price we pay I think is rather good (I'm a big coupon/sale matchup freak - bought a flat (12 pack) of chocolate soy milk at Whole Foods last month normally $3 each for only $1 each after a sale/store coupon/manufacturer's coupon/case discount matchup.) I think he also has a hard-time understanding why it's important to maintain our son's autism-support diet.

So, we now have a workbook we are working through together, where we can address these issues together, and understand that if we don't - we'll just keep triggering each other.


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## LongWalk

Food is source of conflict for many couples. My parents engaged in passive aggressive conflcts over food for their entire marriage.

Soy milk is great. Chocolate soy milk is full of sugar... minor thing but shows how people quarrel over food.

Are you concerned that your husband is becoming more religious? Is the church likely to become a refuge for him again?


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## Starstarfish

> Are you concerned that your husband is becoming more religious? Is the church likely to become a refuge for him again?


He isn't becoming more religious than he was in the past, if anything the religiousity has toned down compared to the beginning of our marriage. No, my bigger concern is that H is very conflict avoidant (while I denied it for a long time, he may indeed have some of the negative "Mr. Nice Guy" traits) and tends to turn to religion as a way to avoid conflict. 

For example, labeling self-interest as selfish, and thus, being able to avoid uncomfortable conversations with his boss. It also gives him this level of naivete where he trusts people "because he should" without realizing that other people don't share his moral standards, and thus - aren't playing by the same rules.

My concern is that rather than appropriately apply religious tenets (don't lie, cheat, steal, follow the Golden Rule - things Christian or otherwise, we can all agree are good rules to follow) while maintaining some common sense, it's sometimes used in place of common sense. My attempts to apply common sense (like don't trust used car salesmen) are at times met with resistance because of this "be the change you want to see" and "people aren't trustworthy if they are never trusted" kind of stuff.


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## LongWalk

Sounds like your husband could benefit from therapy and those books about not being a nice guy, upping sex ranking.


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## Starstarfish

I have no doubt some of that male-reinforcement stuff may indeed help him in his career aspirations and personally, but I don't think long-term it would do positive things for our marriage relationship. 

I'd be concerned he'd just replace God/religion with the holy word of Athol Kay about why he he's in charge and gets to make all the decisions. Just replacing one set of reasoning with a new set with different jargon. That rather than reading me Proverbs 31 about the perfect wife, I could get discussions about my "sh!t tests" and "not swallowing the blue pill" and how he should be "getting laid like tile." I can see it here on TAM, that people cling to stuff rather readily as the be and end all solution to all problems, and start throwing around the jargon as a weapon. I honestly don't need more of that. 

I think really, what he needs (and I'm hoping long-term his IC will help with) is developing his own person, separate from what other people (or God) expects from or wants for him. I think until he develops that, he'd just too easily replace one guru with another, and we'd circle around to the same point, just with a different "Bible."


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## RClawson

Starstarfish said:


> I have no doubt some of that male-reinforcement stuff may indeed help him in his career aspirations and personally, but I don't think long-term it would do positive things for our marriage relationship.
> 
> *I'd be concerned he'd just replace God/religion with the holy word of Athol Kay about why he he's in charge and gets to make all the decisions. Just replacing one set of reasoning with a new set with different jargon. That rather than reading me Proverbs 31 about the perfect wife, I could get discussions about my "sh!t tests" and "not swallowing the blue pill" and how he should be "getting laid like tile." I can see it here on TAM, that people cling to stuff rather readily as the be and end all solution to all problems, and start throwing around the jargon as a weapon. I honestly don't need more of that. *
> 
> I think really, what he needs (and I'm hoping long-term his IC will help with) is developing his own person, separate from what other people (or God) expects from or wants for him. I think until he develops that, he'd just too easily replace one guru with another, and we'd circle around to the same point, just with a different "Bible."


Amen!


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## LostViking

And what are you doing to address your own faults and become a better wife? 

You seem a bit prideful to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starstarfish

LostViking said:


> And what are you doing to address your own faults and become a better wife?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Isn't the purpose of TAM to discuss problems, identify them, and work on them to help with present or future potential relationships? 

My husband has over the course of the nearly six years we've been married displayed certain tendencies. I've had a long time pondering on them. Am I an armchair psychologist and my interpretations could be way off in some assumptions. But as I'm not privy to his IC, I can only surmise what her conclusions are.

Why does me honestly expressing my feelings on things make me prideful? It seems like one of those jargon labels for "women shouldn't complain."

As for what I've done with myself, I finished my degree, lost 60 lbs, and am now employed. Not sure if that makes me a "better wife" but, I'm sure it counts for something somewhere. I'm not perfect and have my own flaws, some of which I've openly discussed here or in PMS with others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blonde

RClawson said:


> Amen!


+1


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## LostViking

Starstarfish said:


> Isn't the purpose of TAM to discuss problems, identify them, and work on them to help with present or future potential relationships?
> 
> My husband has over the course of the nearly six years we've been married displayed certain tendencies. I've had a long time pondering on them. Am I an armchair psychologist and my interpretations could be way off in some assumptions. But as I'm not privy to his IC, I can only surmise what her conclusions are.
> 
> Why does me honestly expressing my feelings on things make me prideful? It seems like one of those jargon labels for "women shouldn't complain."
> 
> As for what I've done with myself, I finished my degree, lost 60 lbs, and am now employed. Not sure if that makes me a "better wife" but, I'm sure it counts for something somewhere. I'm not perfect and have my own flaws, some of which I've openly discussed here or in PMS with others.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I dunno. Just your tone. It's like you good / hubby a moron. Do you encourage him? Do you tell him you believe in him. After spending the day at work being told what a loser he is by his bosses, do you do the same when he gets home ? Or do you passively show your disappointment towards him? 

I'm just asking. I don't know what your conversation s with your husband are like, but it sounds like he has given up on himself, maybe because he feels you have given up on him? 

I'm just turning the thread on its ear and asking you to focus your radar back on yourself and look and see where you may have failed in the relationship. 

Congratulations on all those career achievements by the way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starstarfish

> I dunno. Just your tone. It's like you good / hubby a moron. Do you encourage him? Do you tell him you believe in him. After spending the day at work being told what a loser he is by his bosses, do you do the same when he gets home ? Or do you passively show your disappointment towards him?


I think it's the inherent nature of one-sided posting. If you come to TAM at least partly to vent, then - your posts will no doubt come across that you are great and your spouse is Satan, even if that's the farthest thing from the truth. 

H has never been told he's a loser by his boss, and really despite everything he's never officially (IE in writing) been given a poor review. But, he has an anxiety disorder (this is the only diagnosis I'm sure of from the IC, as it's been discussed in our MC) so he switches between two extremes:

- Mood A: Everything is perfect. Me and my co-workers and my boss are best friends, I'll never get fired because they like me. No one at our company gets fired, just transferred. 

- Mood B: Everything is wrong. Everyone hates me and thinks I'm doing a horrible job. I'll probably get fired today. I've seen so many people get fired. Mood B then dredges up the religious guilt about how things are happening as a punishment. 

Which as a third-party trying to bring comfort to that is extremely difficult as its seemingly impossible to figure out when we are going to be in one mood versus the next, so I never know what to say. If I express any concerns about things he tells me when he's in Mood A, I'm "bringing him down." If I tell him anything positive when he's in Mood B, I'm "giving him false hope." or "Don't understand the situation." 



> Do you tell him you believe in him.


When he gets into a downward cycle of "Mood B" he'll have a crash, and then "opt out" by having a mental break at work until he's assigned a less stressful position. He's done it twice. It's difficult for me to then say that I have full confidence that won't happen again. So do I believe in him? Yes. But, the past has left me wary. 



> I don't know what your conversation s with your husband are like, but it sounds like he has given up on himself, maybe because he feels you have given up on him?


H has had this emotional cycle since we've been married. Prior to marriage, he's confessed during MC his solution to his "Mood B" cycle was to drink heavily and physically injure himself DaVinci Code Opus Dei style to "cure" his fears and feelings of religious guilt. So, I'm not saying that perhaps some actions/reactions/inactions of mine haven't contributed since we've been married, but - there was a whole history there before I was in any way involved. 



> 'm just turning the thread on its ear and asking you to focus your radar back on yourself and look and see where you may have failed in the relationship.


I can think of a lot of ways I've made mistakes.

- I didn't address my blended post-partum/car-accident anxiety when I should have, which has led to lasting inter-family difficulties because I over shared about marriage problems during times I wasn't quite in my right mind. 

- I didn't speak up the first time H don't into his "Mood B" downward spiral. 

- I let my co-dependency tendencies keep me in fear of H's disapproval so that I took too long to complete my degree/gain my certification, because of the religious disapproval of me seeking a career. I hold resentment from conversations during that time. 

But is that "failing" in the relationship? Or are me and my husband like many couples, simply two flawed people trying to create a positive situation with some epic baggage? I don't feel either of us have "failed" our relationship, just that we've had some problems, and my concerns that if those problems aren't addressed, they'll get worse until they are unsustainable.


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## Blonde

I think you will feel better once you have a professional job which CAN support the family if necessary. That is where I am now (in my 50's). It's a great relief that I do not HAVE TO depend on my husband. He works and brings home good money now but there is a very long history of job issues (as I mentioned earlier, living out his daddy's rejection, criticism, and negative prophecies 'you'll never be able to support a mama cat')

H is 58 now and still engages in angst @ his job (is it secure???). I don't worry anymore. If he loses it he can retire, collect social security early, etc. We can get Obamacare for insurance  and I can keep going with my P/T nursing job making $25K. We also have three paid for houses- two of them bringing in rental income.

When you get a good teaching job, maybe you need to keep control of the finances and get a nestegg in place (if he is a spender)?


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## LostViking

Thank you for your clarifications, and I apologize if my directness insulted you. I was not meaning to insult you at all, but trying to get a clearer picture of the dynamic of your personalities. 

Is your husband under the care of a psychiatrist? Does he take medications to level his moods? 

You know, setting aside the anxiety disorder, some people are just not cut out for certain careers, yet they get stuck in that career due to necessity to put food on the table. We have one guy who works for my firm who is a hard working, standup, decent guy. He is well liked by all and very, very smart. But he isn't smart in the way that makes him a good engineer.

Most of us at our firm are math whizes, while this guy is more literary and artistic. He is exceptional at presentations, public speaking and interacting with clients, but he cannot not design a wheelbarrow much less a prostheesis (we are a bio-medical enginnering firm). 

He became an engineer because his dad and brother were engineers, and therefore he thought he had to be one too. Well, to keep it short, he is just barely above inept in his skills. He can get the job done, but it takes him two to three times as long to complete a project as it does some of our first year interns. I am really surprised that he has lasted in this company as long as he has. He should have never become an engineer. He is obviously very unhappy in his situation, but he and his wife have four kids and a mortgage , so....

Is this your husband's problem? Can he go to night school maybe and work on switching careers?


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## LongWalk

Viking,

Banking is much more of a herd activity. The banks have policies, guidelines. There may not be as much creativity involved.

Bankers have to get clients to accept fees that are unjustified. OP's husband may not feel fully comfortable being a hard azz. That is why the job is tough.

Part of the problem in this marriage is that the OP has so much more insight into her husband than he has into her. She is not comfortable with this. If he were to become more of Kay Athol dude, she would not like it because he is not subtle.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## DTO

Not sure if it was addressed earlier, but if he's been promoted 4 times in 6 years then he's probably increased his salary a great deal in a fairly short time. How is it that just one step back puts you guys at the edge financially?

Most companies are pretty flat these days. Four steps up is a big jump in responsibility and he might have simply overreached. I'm concerned that somehow you are sending a signal that he needs to keep striving for more. IMO, people just don't snap - they gradually drown under too much burden until that "last straw" drops. I see no reason then why he should have applied for a position for which his lack of enthusiasm was clearly evident.



Starstarfish said:


> I'm slightly hesitant to make this post, as thus far on TAM I've only made passing reference to indeed my own marriage and it's problems. I've never had "a thread" really that got into things. But - it seems its the time to make one. While this post is about a financial issue, its more complex than that, hence why I didn't put this in the finance issues section.
> 
> Basic info:
> 
> I'm 30, my husband is 33. We'll be married 6 years this December. We have one child, a three year old. There are no other children from previous relationships for either of us. My husband was previously married when he was younger, the marriage lasted two years. His ex was diagnosed BPD by a therapist, they tried MC, but she went off the rails, and things ended when she attempted assault with a deadly weapon.
> 
> But the story likely starts way before then. My husband was raised in a very religious home wherein there was a heavy emphasis on "enriching the faith." First and foremost by having large families (he's one of six, his mother was one of 12). (This led to some issues in H's house as apparently having enough food was an issue when they were kids - it's been openly discussed at family get togethers.) Secondly, there was encouragement about generational involvement in the clergy of the church. Thus my husband and his eldest brother entered seminary to become minsters. My husband did not complete his schooling (he would have gotten a Masters in Theology) because during his final year as noted above, his marriage ended. And thus, he was not "passed" on his assessment as a Vicar because of their feeling he'd be a poor example to the faithful given their stringent feelings against divorce.
> 
> My husband then entered the "secular" world and now works in banking. He's had four positions in the six years we've been married. Each has been a "promotion" in the sense that each has consecutively had better pay. But - not all of these promotions were at his desire, but rather higher ups finding the "best place to utilize him." As in the end, it becomes reflected to people that while he is good at his job, there's a lack of passion. His DM told him as much once when he applied for a position, and she said he couldn't "sell her" that he really wanted it. In the end he doesn't feel it's what he "should be doing" (which I personally think relates back to a mourning about not going into the ministry) but he can't form an idea of what he'd rather do instead.
> 
> H has mood swings between up-beat energy and soul-crushing ennui. He self-punishes for deemed failings at work or life in general by refusing to eat. Two years ago he had a panic attack at work, which facilitated him going to the hospital. He transferred into a different position (or was transferred there's some sort of grey line there) and things got better. He was told then to begin IC, but refused to go. About a year ago, he began another position, and things have gone downhill from there. Problems with his boss, problems with co-workers, he feels defeated and unable to fix the situation. I try to be sympathetic, I listen to him when talks about work, I've tried to attend events with him and be supportive and to help his business, I've tried to up the sex to help his stress level.
> 
> Two weeks ago he had another "break" at work. He called me from work crying, and apparently one of his co-workers became aware of the situation, and called his boss to express her concern. HR became involved and has now made regular IC (first session is Monday) contingent on his continued employment. Which I thought was a positive, perhaps he'd get some catharsis, could talk through some issues, discuss strategies about dealing with people at work, it would be a move in the right direction.
> 
> But Friday, his boss comes to him and explains that's not the end of it. Higher-ups no longer have the confidence in him to continue in his current position, and he's being "offered" a transfer. It was made rather painfully clear his option is to take this transfer or get fired. And this transfer will come with a $10,000 pay cut. He told me today.
> 
> I'm in shock, and frankly I'm scared senseless. I have no idea how we are going to make that work. I'm scared for the future because I fear this will forever mar what is otherwise ten years of good employment and seniority at a good company. I'm angry that he refused to address the problem two years ago. I feel overwhelmed, helpless, and uncertain how I'm going to make it day-to-day without spending all my time worrying about money. It's 5 AM, I've been awake since 2AM, I'm nauseous.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starstarfish

> Is this your husband's problem? Can he go to night school maybe and work on switching careers?


I've encouraged him to consider doing so since we've been married. But can't choose a career he'd like to pursue instead, so - can't make a choice about what to work towards. 



> Not sure if it was addressed earlier, but if he's been promoted 4 times in 6 years then he's probably increased his salary a great deal in a fairly short time. How is it that just one step back puts you guys at the edge financially?


The large majority of these promotions did not come with a significant increase in salary. 2 - 5% has been average. Which after taxes doesn't really amount to much. Any increase in salary has also been paired with a higher expectation in my student loan repayment. Our rent has increased each year, as have other bills. There was also the year where his promotion he earned a 5% raise, but the entire company had a 5% austerity cut, so that was a zero sum game. His latest promotion to his previous position (the one he was removed from) was the largest increase to date. 

We also made decisions (perhaps foolishly) based on the assumption of his new salary. Like purchasing a new vehicle because of the amount of driving required for his new position. (My car is paid off.) His old position gave him a mileage allowance. As that's a benefit for salaried employees, and he's now hourly, that's also gone. He now works in a different location and needs to pay $80 a month for a parking pass. 



> I'm concerned that somehow you are sending a signal that he needs to keep striving for more.


Is the expectation to strive towards home-ownership an unreasonable goal? It isn't about striving towards "more" but certain goals, yes. Goals that he told me he shared and were important to him before marriage. 

At the same time, while I was more than willing to pursue a career to help with those goals, my career aspirations, and indeed me working became a source of angst and embarrassment for him in our old church. So, if the bills keep increasing, and I'm not meant to work - where should the money come from? This is no longer our dynamic, as I'm now working, but was for several years. 



> I see no reason then why he should have applied for a position for which his lack of enthusiasm was clearly evident.


Again, we have bills that need to be paid, including paying for medical bills for our special needs child. He has lacked enthusiasm and genuine interest with every job he's had since we married, but at the same time has no interest to get training or schooling to do anything else.


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## LostViking

Do you feel you have come to the end of the road with him? Do you compare him to other men in his age group you know and find him lacking? 

That knowledge, if he is cognizant of it, must be depressing for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## manfromlamancha

This is an interesting thread that I particularly identify with from your husbands point of view. In my late 20's all the way to my early 40's I had what could be described as a stellar yet tumultuous career and with kids to raise felt equally anxious at work with almost the exact same mood swings as your husband. I was very good at job roles (in fact outstanding) and really bad at others where I would be given the same ultimatum as your husband. I was fired a few times and promoted and given awards even more times. The jobs I was fired from were not right for me and I was not the right person to do them. It took a very good mentor and the wisdom of my wife to help me see this and (partially) overcome my related anxieties. In time as I grew older this became much less of an issue although I still have twinges now in my 50's. Throughout this my wife was a rock (with respect to this - we had other problems). She not only believed in me but regularly told me so. She also told others including my coworkers and bosses so.

You were asked earlier if you regularly told your husband that you believed in him and your actual reply to this question was to tell us if you really believed in him (forget about whether you told him or not) - my take on your reply was, in the end you did not believe in him. If this is true then your relationship is truly over - religion or no religion, SAHM suppression or no suppression. You can only work on these aspects if you actually believe that your husband is capable of being great, is intelligent, funny and all or most of the things you value. In fact if you truly believe this you would tell him and a lot of your other problems would be well on their way to being solved. I wish you the best of luck and constructive self-reflection.


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## Blonde

Some of the above posts appear to me to make YOU responsible for your husband's career success or failure and how he feels about himself.

A crock IMO and IME

No matter how much of a "cheerleader" you are, it won't make or break him. My experience is cheerleading allows him to remain in denial and fail to look within and address whatever baggage keeps him in a cycle of failure. I think I posted near the beginning of the thread how helpful I was propping my husband up regarding careers. That is a dead end, just delays the process of him taking ownership of his own life.

You focus on YOU. You make YOUR life successful and happy. You can't "fix" this for your H.

So, teaching job for YOU and then look for a house to buy which your income only qualifies you for the mortgage. Keep the mortgage way below the maximum the bank will tell you and if possible make it a 15 year mortgage. Is your husband at all handy? Try shopping here: Fannie Mae REO Homes For Sale - HomePath.com


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## Blonde

If I was you SSF I would auto-REJECT any message which says "shame on you, you bad wife, it's your fault" whether it comes from religion or from TAM guys who want you to "mother" your husband to success...


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## Starstarfish

> Do you feel you have come to the end of the road with him? Do you compare him to other men in his age group you know and find him lacking?
> 
> That knowledge, if he is cognizant of it, must be depressing for him.


No, I don't feel I've come to the end of the road. I love my husband, and hence why I'm in MC (and arguably here on TAM as well) looking towards fixing our individual and mutual problems. 

If you mean do I say "Look at what so-and-so has?" I won't lie and say it hasn't happened. I don't try and make a habit of it. 



> If this is true then your relationship is truly over - religion or no religion, SAHM suppression or no suppression. You can only work on these aspects if you actually believe that your husband is capable of being great, is intelligent, funny and all or most of the things you value. In fact if you truly believe this you would tell him and a lot of your other problems would be well on their way to being solved. I wish you the best of luck and constructive self-reflection.
> Today 04:14 AM


Which problems do you feel would be solved? 

What things exactly did your wife do or say that helped, Manfromlamancha? You said you also had a mentor at the time, was that a professional (counselor etc?) 

To be fair, it seems like the theme here is that I should be the keeper for my husband's mental health. That I shouldn't express things that might upset or depress him, and that if I only thought this/or said that, he'd be "cured."

And to be honest, I feel like those same suggestions aren't made to men who express a wife may have some mental issues that require counseling to resolve. He's given the BPD checklist, told to "stop walking on eggshells" and told to disconnect himself from her problems. But - I seem to be getting the suggestion that I can fix all the problems, and worse, may be at fault for them, because I'm just not good enough as a wife.


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## Starstarfish

Seems we had cross-over posts there, Blonde. Thanks for the support.



> So, teaching job for YOU and then look for a house to buy which your income only qualifies you for the mortgage. Keep the mortgage way below the maximum the bank will tell you and if possible make it a 15 year mortgage. Is your husband at all handy? Try shopping here: Fannie Mae REO Homes For Sale - HomePath.com


You might be happy to know that Friday my license came through, so I can now start looking for a full-time teaching position. After the holidays, I'm also going to look into subbing on Mondays, when I'm not working my part-time teaching job and don't work my retail job as that's MC day. And apparently, lol, the district I'm working in has a major problem getting subs to come in on Mondays, so there should be lots of work. 

:smthumbup:

I was granted two licenses, because of my Master's, the general "Broad Field Social Studies" and one specifically for "History" core curriculum, so I can now also teach both regular, as well as Honors and Advanced Placement classes. 

Yes, once I get a full-time position, I was going to look into the "Good Neighbor" HUD program to see if we could find something. Thanks for also suggesting the Home Path website.  Really the biggest hurdle is coming up with a down payment, so if we could find something that would qualify for a low down-payment, that would certainly be a big help. Also, once I get into a full-time teaching position, we can work on loan forgiveness.


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## Starstarfish

My husband's handiness has never really been tested, as - in our apartment, we always call maintenance to fix things. (Our lease has so many stipulations about the security deposit, I figure I'll let them fix things, rather than doing any self-repairs and being blamed for anything later.)

Also, one of the ladies I work with at my present teaching job - her husband is a contractor, so if need be and we get a fixer-upper, I have an "in" for possibly getting work done.


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## LostViking

Blonde said:


> If I was you SSF I would auto-REJECT any message which says "shame on you, you bad wife, it's your fault" whether it comes from religion or from TAM guys who want you to "mother" your husband to success...


I sometimes laugh out loud when I read your posts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostViking

This is becoming a bit of the war of the sexes. I'm sorry if I steered it that way. I just feel a bit sorry for the guy. He seems like a decent guy who can't catch a break. 

Good luck to you Starfish. I hope you find some happiness at the end of your journey. I'm bowing out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blonde

LostViking said:


> I sometimes laugh out loud when I read your posts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sometimes I agree with you and other times I presume your advice came through the filters of however many failed relationships with women are in your past... (with the associated dislike and distrust toward women)


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## Blonde

Starstarfish said:


> My husband's handiness has never really been tested, as - in our apartment, we always call maintenance to fix things. (Our lease has so many stipulations about the security deposit, I figure I'll let them fix things, rather than doing any self-repairs and being blamed for anything later.)
> 
> Also, one of the ladies I work with at my present teaching job - her husband is a contractor, so if need be and we get a fixer-upper, I have an "in" for possibly getting work done.


Make sure you factor in costs for any repairs and don't over-pay for a fixer upper. My daughter is married to a very Un-handy husband (a social studies teacher ) and they rent now but when they buy she wants a house which is "finished". The other issue is even with a handy husband if you *depend* on him for repairs, it can be used against you IME. 

AWESOME if you can get in on the loan forgiveness program for teachers!


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## Starstarfish

I'm mostly using this thread as a diary/rant-box, so here we go. 

Having a mixed-emotion kind day. 

H heard back last week about one of the different internal jobs he's applied for, and was happy to realize he knew the hiring manager and that they'd previously worked together and had a good relationship. I thought good, that's a positive. :smthumbup:

He emailed his boss and requested he fulfill his prior promise to put in a good word. Like usual, said good word never manifested, so yesterday, H called and set up an interview for this Friday. Again, I thought good, great. 

Until last night, when I wake up in the middle of the night, and he's in the bathroom throwing up, and he's in there off and on the whole night. Coincidence? Maybe. He bought this triple fiber bread last time we were shopping, and then ate it as PB&J last night with this high-fiber stuffed pepper frozen dinner. I kind of off-hand commented about how that likely isn't wise. 

He's called in to work today, and I'm trying not to be angsty over it. But, honestly - I kind of am. I worry that he's self-sabotaging again. Also - while I perhaps shouldn't feel this way, it feels like more "opting out" to me. I had an emergency root canal last night, and still have to do the dishes, the laundry, take my son to a pre-planned activity, and go to work tonight from 4 - 11. I probably won't be home until midnight.

Not sure what if any feedback I expect or want, I just wanted to rant a bit.


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## Sandfly

Blonde said:


> Sometimes I agree with you and other times I presume your advice came through the filters of however many failed relationships with women are in your past... (with the associated dislike and distrust toward women)


Heh heh, What a charmer.


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