# Feeling a lot lost



## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

My husband has cheated on me … again. I don’t know what to do. Even if I did, I don’t know whether I have the energy to do it. I love him very much. He says that he loves me very much. He wants our marriage to survive this; and is willing to do whatever he can to save it. 

The first OW was someone he met online – the relationship started before we were married and then morphed into an EA that he carried on via email for the first year of our marriage until I fell pregnant with our first child. He had told me about a very passionate kiss before we got married (we took a break to rethink things before recommitting ourselves to the relationship), but I only found out the full story later by chance. There were actually secret meetings and phone calls, a ONS (stopping just short of sex) and, even after our marriage, a very emotional and romantic email exchange. When I found out by accident, I was devastated. I told him that I wanted a divorce, he (as non-confrontational as he is) fought back with how sorry he was and how he wasn’t going to let me throw away our relationship and family on something so stupid that he’d done. We went to MC and he went to IC. It was painful, but we grew up and grew together, had another son, and the affair became something of a badge that we had collected as a couple. Our experience together had made us stronger, more real and honest with each other. I can honestly say that I trusted him completely again. 

More than ten years later (after I was treated for a major depression that went on for almost two years) I found out that that, for a few months earlier this year, he had another affair. This time, the OW was someone known to me (son’s school friend’s mother). My WH says that he has never had sex with another woman since he met me. He admits to a lot of kissing and hugging, secret meetings, flirtatious texting with this second OW. I found out about the affair when the OWH contacted me on a family holiday. (It had already ended by then – mostly due to OWH’s suspicions.) The OW had apparently come clean and finally confirmed the EA and that there had been “kissing”. My WH first tried to minimise things - a few weeks later he was finally more honest about the extent of what had gone on. He says now that he doesn’t have any real feelings for her at all, that he is deeply ashamed, that he felt “out of control” and “in a fog”. He says that he deeply regrets what he did. 

In my calmer moments, I believe him. Sometimes I don’t. Mostly I try not to think about it at all. This second time is much worse. All the forgotten and forgiven hurt from the first betrayal has risen to the surface again. I am sad a lot, then I am angry and bitter a bit. Then I try to function normally - as normally as I can. My husband sits and holds my hands and says that he is so sorry, that he would do anything to save our marriage. He cries about how much he has hurt me, , then he holds me while I cry about how much he has hurt me, and he worries about the impact of his behaviour on our kids. I think he is genuinely remorseful (but then I think – what do I know?). I know that my depression wasn’t easy for him and that he did so much to keep our family functioning and healthy when I was getting well. I don’t know if I can trust him, don’t know if I should trust him. Am I stupid for even thinking of trying? He is a good dad and a good man. I want so badly to believe in him again. 

Anyone got any wisdom for me?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Grown, mature, experienced, dry-behind-the-ears, ADULTS do not stop at kissing and petting.

They had full body-on sex. Both of his affairs, they did this.

This is cheater script lies. They try to minimize the "outed" damage. Make it a forgivable offense.

NOT to spare you the details and pain, but to get him off the hook.

Your husbands boundaries were weak before you met him, after you married him.......and are still loose, still weak.

Pack his knap sack with peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, toss in a porcupine, a rat and a skunk. Hand it to him and tell him to have a nice life in a place that is not HOME.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Sorry but cheaters are notorious liars. 

Speak with the OW's H at length.

This is the second time. If it were me there wouldn't be a third


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

There are men that view sex as the most intense bonding experience there can be with their spouse. Your husband is not one of these. He is the other type of man that thinks of sex as a great feeling for them self, but don't really care WHO gives them that feeling.

There are women that look at it the same way. If he took the time to "kiss", they did everything they possibly could together.

There are good men out there, hopefully you can find one.

Sorry you are here.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mizzbak said:


> My husband sits and holds my hands and says that he is so sorry, that he would do anything to save our marriage.
> 
> Anyone got any wisdom for me?


Yes. Give him this list. Tell him once he completes it, you will consider giving him a third chance:
He must go to his parents with you and tell them what he's done and apologize.
He must go to your parents with you and tell them what he's done and apologize for hurting you.
He must contact OW's husband and apologize.
He must go back to IC and allow you to come to one session every month or two to get his IC's opinion on what's going on.
He must find a polygraph company and set up an appointment, for which you will set up the questions.
He must go to a lawyer and set up a postnup agreement so that if he cheats again he walks away with nothing.

If he's willing to do those things, you might have a chance.

And fwiw, when a cheater admits to kissing, they had at least made out. When a cheater admits to making out, they really had sex. When they admit to having sex once, they did it multiple times. This is true nearly every single time. So please don't do any of this without him taking a polygraph.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

He wants to do all he can to save the marriage.

Except not having sex with other women.

Please. Get tested for STDs.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

He's a serial, which means that it's time to pull the plug and move on. He's already shown you that he's not going to stop cheating -- from here on out, he's just going to get better at hiding it.

Also consider this -- for every affair that you DO know about, there are probably one or two that you've not yet discovered.

Oh and they're also lying -- adults don't meet up "just to kiss". They f*cked. Think about it... why put your marriage and family at risk unless you're going to go all the way?

I'll say it again:

THEY.

ARE.

LYING.

THEY.

F#CKED.

Dump the chump!

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

If he really valued you, he wouldn't have cheated again. He's a liar, and you can't trust him.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I like your Avatar..

I think I was a Tom Cat in another life!

Before that, a Saber Tooth Tiger.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Your post made me cry, and I'm not much of a cryer. My heart breaks for you.

I Agree to him following the steps listed above that include the poly. If he's serious, he will comply and there may be something here to salvage. TAKE. YOUR. TIME. 


I'm so sorry you are here, it sounds like we've got two ultimately very nice, but very imperfect people really struggling with problems that seem impossible to solve. I hope you all get lots of help and that a FUTURE reconcile might happen. TAKE. YOUR. TIME.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Here is a link for you, not to sweep the problem under the rug, but rather to help yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qng2BBXOMx4

Joyce herself has talked about forgiving, but not leaving yourself open to further hurt.


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## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

Your husband is full of BS, he's telling you only what he thinks you need to hear and saying it in a way that you fall for it hook line and sinker.

People who love one another don't do things that will cause devastation to the other person, it's really that simple.

You need to figure out why you are so reluctant to leave this horrible man who will hurt you without any regard for your feelings because he's only interested in satisfying his own selfish urges. 

Remember, he only stopped- if he even did- because you caught him. If you didn't he wouldn't have stopped either one of those other times and there's a good chance there's even more women he was with that you don't even know about because if you didn't catch him, he had no reason to admit it to you.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

turnera said:


> Yes. Give him this list. Tell him once he completes it, you will consider giving him a third chance:
> He must go to his parents with you and tell them what he's done and apologize.
> He must go to your parents with you and tell them what he's done and apologize for hurting you.
> He must contact OW's husband and apologize.
> ...


THIS! He got away with it to all intents and purposes and thinks not that you have a family, he will again. You do not have to make any decisions with regard to this WH. See how far he is actually able to go to save the marriage, but give him no free passes. If he is not willing to do all the things listed above, then you know your answer. You do not want to wake up in another 10-15 years with a man you despise, believe me this could happen when it is just you and him and no kids.


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## vel (Aug 27, 2016)

turnera's list is a very good starting point. I want to say 'just dump him', but I know it's hard, especially with the depression. You may think, if only I wasn't depressed maybe this wouldn't have happened... but never forget, it's NOT your fault!

And I think he's majorly lying. They totally fvcked. Get together with the OWH and see if your stories line up!


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

A prostitute will f... but they don't [normally] kiss - to intimate.

No saying he went all the way but he was definitely being intimate outside the marriage, and it wasn't him who came clean.
Your call if he's the person you still want in your life, or are things in a state where you could enjoy freedom from worrying about a wandering partner?


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

When he said this " how he wasn’t going to let me throw away our relationship" is a piece of work. He is throwing it away, then and now.

"secret meetings" = sex. If nobody is around, what keeps them from doing it? You know sex can be quick... we've all had our quickies.


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## Legend (Jun 25, 2013)

I wouldn't be in a rush to jettison this marriage, especially with children. I wonder if your depression was any kind of contributing factor (not blaming you, of course). You both need to agree wholeheartedly on radical honesty between each other. Needs aren't being met, communication sucks, he's a liar. Without 100% honesty on everything past and present, marriage cannot recover and grow. 99% won't cut it. If it were me, I'd polygraph his a$$ since he has proven himself to be a liar. He is likely giving you the G-rated version to avoid hurting you further and to increase his odds of reconciliation. If you don't know the whole truth, how can you recover, forgive, and love him?


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## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

Legend said:


> I wouldn't be in a rush to jettison this marriage, especially with children. I wonder if your depression was any kind of contributing factor (not blaming you, of course).


You're not blaming her, only suggesting that she once again forgive his serial cheating and constant lying and trickle truths because, well she was depressed so don't blame the poor guy for getting his own needs met because he's gotta deal with a depressed wife all day. Nice.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Miz,

Let me give you a heads up on Serial Cheaters... He never really stopped cheating on you after that 1st time before your marriage. Oh they will take a pause for 6 months maybe a year but they are always looking for that next time. The more realistic truth is... it just took 10 more years for him to get caught again. 

Oh BTW, there was sex. My own WW finally admitted to me that after months of kissing and groping with her AP she decided to have sex. _"The consequences didn't change." _Understand?


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

I want to thank you all for your words - those that were kinder and gentler and those that were harsher and more uncompromising. 

After I had read some of them, I started shivering so much that I had to curl up in a little ball on this rainbow shaggy carpet that we have in the study. The reality is that I have already thought everything that your words suggest. I've had the pictures in my mind to prove it. But do I still want to believe in him? Absolutely. 

This morning I woke up certain of some things:

Because I love my boys, I'm not going to make any decisions now. At heart, I'm a fairly analytical person - and when all the emotional seesawing is done, I need to make the best decision I can for me and mine. If I do decide to stay married, I won't agree to go on with our marriage as it is. 



turnera said:


> Yes. Give him this list. Tell him once he completes it, you will consider giving him a third chance:
> He must go to his parents with you and tell them what he's done and apologize.
> He must go to your parents with you and tell them what he's done and apologize for hurting you.
> He must contact OW's husband and apologize.
> ...


Thank you *turnera* for your list (I'm big into lists). He'd already agreed to take a polygraph (although thus far our local service providers seem reluctant to take on domestic interviews) and we discussed the idea of a postnuptial agreement in some detail this morning. He will choose an IC. I'm also going to start IC this week (my WH's idea) - I need a face to speak things to. I did realise that unless I shadow him 24 hours day for the rest of our married life, I will need to trust him at some point. So we're going to need a practical plan to make that happen. 

Re: the sex part. We had a long nose-to-nose discussion this morning (like a heart-to-heart, but with tissues). And I found out something very interesting. He saw sex with another woman as the final step that he wouldn't be able to come back from. I think that for him everything up until then was very wrong, but somehow not quite unforgivable. I know men and women are supposed to respond differently to EA's and PA's but I think that my response to him on this was pretty unequivocal. I don't actually care much whether he had sex with them or not. I care that he lived a lie with me. That he gave another woman the truth of who he is for the time that he lied to me and even after that. That is what has done the damage and made me doubt whether I can stay married to him. And I care that he tells the truth to me now in all its ugliness.

And I also realised one final thing. That if I do give him this chance and he lets me down again; then I refuse to feel ashamed. It would be very easy to walk away so that he can never hurt me again. I am not weak if I choose to believe the best about someone.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

These are the only women you found out about. Someone who is devoted and committed to you doesn't do this when things are bad. They work to make things better. He knows that there are no consequences and the worst that can happen is what he feels is already likely, divorce. He doesn't respect you or even more importantly himself. 

You will never feel comfortable again. You will always be wondering. This won't ever change. Not tomorrow, a week, a month or a year from now. You will always question the devotion of your husband or how much of this all has been a sham. The only way to not feel this way is to pretend. Like a 1950s wife whose husband comes home and drinks at the office and bangs secretaries, you will have to pretend that none of this ever happens. If you can't do that, it will never leave your mind and it will destroy your soul.

Kick him the **** out right now. Reclaim your life and tell him you'll be fair to him, but he isn't the person you thought you married. Cleanse yourself now or it will only be harder and more muddled later. Remember, you need to take control. Don't wait to let things settle down. That is what he want. What's the worse that can happen? You kick him out now, change your mind later and he has moved on? **** him. If he loves you and wants you to be happy, he would devote his life to doing what you need. And what you need is to reincarnate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So are you going to have him apologize to the parents?


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Mizzbak said:


> And I also realised one final thing. That if I do give him this chance and he lets me down again; *then I refuse to feel ashamed. It would be very easy to walk away so that he can never hurt me again.* I am not weak if I choose to believe the best about someone.


Miz,

I think most who choose R with a cheater come to terms with what you say above. I know I said the same words or very similar. My IC called it my emotional safety net... you won't/can't hurt me again... as the Chinese proverb says "Will See".


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> Sorry but cheaters are notorious liars.
> Speak with the OW's H at length.
> This is the second time. If it were me there wouldn't be a third


OK, did a brave/foolish/weird thing today and contacted the OW's H. Thank you Marc878 ... 

We had coffee and swapped information. Aside from various warning lights going off around meeting him while we are both in such a frankly emotional state, we did OK (although 2 emotional introverts in a coffee shop sounds like a music group). I remain fairly neutral about the OW. She has nothing to do with the promises that were broken that cause me such pain - the breaking yes, the promises, no. I respect her a lot less now after the conversation I had with her husband. (She made my husband's trickle truth look like a tsunami). I knew her a bit (not all that well) so I had heard how she spoke about her spouse before all this happened. I don't have a lot of time for people that whinge about their spouses to others. I think that if you have issues with your spouse then you discuss them with your spouse. Everything else is disloyal and just a waste of time. 

So the conversation was eye-opening. The OW's H is in a lot of pain, he is angry and all the things that you'd expect him (and me) to be. Some things I think he sees more clearly than me and others I think I see better than him. On the plus side (ish) - it would appear that my WS has been far more frank about things than his. And mine seems very much more committed to trying to save our marriage. 

On the not-so-great side, he also doesn't quite believe that they didn't have sex. He also told me a few details/perspectives that I didn't know. My WH definitely spoke to the OW more about our relationship then he told me he did (he knows my views on this - see above). The OWH knew some small things about me that I certainly hadn't told him. It was so surreal ... and sordid. I'm not actually uncomfortable about anything that I found out - in general terms, I knew it already. Just feel a bit like I was out in public and suddenly noticed toilet paper stuck to my shoe. 

I worry that I did him harm by telling him things that he didn't already know. He told me that all he wants is the truth. I told him what I had. I am definitely going to insist on a polygraph from my WH.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Mizzbak said:


> I want to thank you all for your words - those that were kinder and gentler and those that were harsher and more uncompromising.
> 
> After I had read some of them, I started shivering so much that I had to curl up in a little ball on this rainbow shaggy carpet that we have in the study. The reality is that I have already thought everything that your words suggest. I've had the pictures in my mind to prove it. But do I still want to believe in him? Absolutely.
> 
> ...


Bottom line -- for as long as he's telling you that he's not gone "all the way" w/ any of these women, he's lying to your face, and you're not going to be able to reconcile your marriage in any way that truly matters until he starts telling the truth, and ALL of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

Hi *tunera*

The parent issue is a bit complicated. Both sets are pretty far away. And his are currently waiting on a pretty serious medical diagnosis. (There have been better times for us to have relationship drama.) I want to talk to my folks, but am worried that this will make them both very worried (they have enough of their own worries right now) and also that it will make a future relationship between them and my WH very difficult if we reconcile. My dad is pretty judgemental when it comes to sordid ... and whilst I could tell my mom, she would definitely tell my dad.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

Legend said:


> I wouldn't be in a rush to jettison this marriage, especially with children. I wonder if your depression was any kind of contributing factor (not blaming you, of course). You both need to agree wholeheartedly on radical honesty between each other. Needs aren't being met, communication sucks, he's a liar. Without 100% honesty on everything past and present, marriage cannot recover and grow. 99% won't cut it. If it were me, I'd polygraph his a$$ since he has proven himself to be a liar. He is likely giving you the G-rated version to avoid hurting you further and to increase his odds of reconciliation. If you don't know the whole truth, how can you recover, forgive, and love him?


Yes, Legend, I 100% think that my depression was a contributing factor. I know that for a long time I was basically wrapped in a gentle woolly layer of numbness. It's hard to have a good marriage with anyone in these circumstances. Was it my fault that I was sick? No. Could I have gotten better quicker? Probably. Should he have handled my depression differently at the time? Yes - we've started to have several discussions around this and what we both should have done differently. Did he respond appropriately to how all this (my depression) made him feel? Absolutely not. What he did was wrong and incredibly destructive. And he absolutely understands this and owns it. If he didn't, I wouldn't even be prepared to consider reconciling with him.

And yes, the polygraph has become non-negotiable. I don't know that I care what the truth actually is, I care that I know it ...


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

Spicy said:


> Your post made me cry, and I'm not much of a cryer. My heart breaks for you.
> 
> I Agree to him following the steps listed above that include the poly. If he's serious, he will comply and there may be something here to salvage. TAKE. YOUR. TIME.
> 
> ...


*Spicy*, thank you. Your post made me cry back. I am battling so much with being so many different people. There's the one that keeps everything normal and even a bit smiley for my kids. There's the one that wrote my first post who cries ... pretty much always, if I let her. There's the one that nurses every new hurt (discovered or imagined) and is in a pretty foul mood all the time - frankly, she is a b1tch. There's the pragmatist who is prepared, once all checks and balances are in place, to take a chance on him and on trying again. And then there's the last one. Just trying to be real. Thank you for reminding me that she exists. Of all of them, I think she understands him best.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Re: your parents. First, you NEED your parents' support for this. Second, his relationship with them is HIS problem to deal with. He caused this. Third, if he were to APOLOGIZE to them, and do it sincerely, it would serve two purposes (aside from giving you your parents' support): It would teach your H a very valuable lesson, to look them in the face or to even hear their voice over the phone, and see what HIS actions have done; and it would teach them that he can have humility and sorrow and may make them willing to give him a second chance.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

I know you want to WISH that they didn't have sex. But the likelyhood is more so than not. Just as you didn't know about the time they spent with each other, you don't know what physical things happen - other than what he has told you. I saw text in my wife's phone about her and POSOM "Fu~~ing", yet both of them said "it was a joke". She has since admitted that yeah, they DID have sex, more than I knew at first. Because the tons of "friendly" text doesn't have to say SEX all the time - they were.

You should tell your husband... that IF you find out he is LYING about any sex in the future, that you will D him instantly. That he better come clean now... because eventually you will learn the truth, next week, next year... etc. That the continued lying of any sort will kill any chance of staying married.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Mizzbak said:


> Yes, Legend, I 100% think that my depression was a contributing factor. I know that for a long time I was basically wrapped in a gentle woolly layer of numbness. It's hard to have a good marriage with anyone in these circumstances. Was it my fault that I was sick? No. Could I have gotten better quicker? Probably. Should he have handled my depression differently at the time? Yes - we've started to have several discussions around this and what we both should have done differently. .


You're lying to yourself. :|

In your first post in this thread, you *clearly* state that this guy has been cheating on you since BEFORE you even married him, yet you're making excuses for him by claiming your depression contributed to his behavior this time. Your depression lasted for 2 years so it's obvious you WEREN'T depressed the *first* time he chose to cheat years ago, so what convenient excuse does he have for the first time he did it? And I hate to say it but god knows how many other times it's happened that you DON'T know about. In either event, don't make excuses for him by blaming your depression for being part of the reason he chose to cheat just because you want so badly to forgive him - again.

And do know that cheaters *lie their faces off.* If you only have proof of a kiss, that's ALL they're going to admit to. He's not stupid, he's not going to shoot himself in the foot and admit to having sex with these women if he doesn't have to. That's not rocket science. So of COURSE he's lying about not having sex with them. Jeez.

Since the local yokels are less than enthusiastic about giving a polygraph regarding infidelity, I highly suggest you throw your net much further out into the waters and find one who *does*. What's the point of doing a poly with an examiner who doesn't believe in getting the truth out of a cheating liar? You might as well have the mailman administer the poly. Don't waste you money with the locals.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Mizzbak said:


> My husband has cheated on me … again.
> 
> Anyone got any wisdom for me?


I only got that far. Words of wisdom, leave him.


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## ne9907 (Jul 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> Yes. Give him this list. Tell him once he completes it, you will consider giving him a third chance:
> He must go to his parents with you and tell them what he's done and apologize.
> He must go to your parents with you and tell them what he's done and apologize for hurting you.
> He must contact OW's husband and apologize.
> ...


THIS!!!

OP, would you feel okay elaborating on your depression issues?

Personally, I think you must go see a therapist, work on yourself. Most of us come here broken hearted because we believe the person we love is the only person who will LOVE us. This is not the case. I feel your pain, however, I also feel you are letting your husband manipulate you. Does he know he is manipulating you? I don't know. I do know that a man who cries because he is confessing to an affair is doing his best to manipulate you.....

His were crocodile tears. I am almost 100% sure of this. I feel for you, you will have a very difficult time detaching from this man. Be strong and work on you. Be you.


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## Sephirox (Sep 18, 2016)

I think you are giving your husband too much of the power play here. I feel like he cheated and his "remorse" and words of regret are bs, since this is not his first rodeo. He hasn't been held accountable so it is likely he will continue this behavior.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

I just wanted to give an update on where things are with me – for what it’s worth, my WH and I are still trying to R. Most days, it’s going quite well. Most days. (I am going to respond directly to the earlier comments here later - thank you all for them.)

Firstly, I told my parents what was going on. They were very supportive and told me that they both stood behind me no matter what decisions I ended up making. But, probably understandably because they have a vested grandchildren interest, they also both told me separately that they hoped that we'd be able to reconcile. I did realise that the first time this happened, I was too ashamed (go figure!) to tell people what was going on in my life. I felt humiliated and that everything had somehow been my fault. Whilst I don’t feel the need to humiliate my husband as part of his route to a possible reconciliation, I don’t feel any concern in telling anyone whose support I might need at this time. 

Secondly, as I said in an earlier post, I met with the OW's husband. We compared notes and I found out that I had been given a far clearer picture of the truth than him. I am not sure, but when I last communicated with him they were separated and it looked as though a R was unlikely. The OW has since written me an apology email. Which was weird. I responded (after a week or so) that I hoped that her life will come right. Her first marriage broke up because her husband cheated very blatantly on her. And I know that she feels very guilty about pursuing a relationship with my husband. I don't feel very much animosity towards her at all. This worries me slightly (am I nurturing a boiling pit of rage somewhere and haven't noticed it yet?). But really, this has become less and less about her. (I haven't stalked her online for at least a few days ...) My pain comes from my husband breaking his promise to me. She had not made me any promises. As far as I am concerned, my WH is 100 % responsible for his actions and decisions and their impact on me.

A few weeks ago, I followed up on another thread suggestion here and looked at my husband's Google location history (from his maps timeline). Wow. This lead to me being able to analyse a great deal about his comings and goings before and during the affair. Maybe I should make a separate thread about trickle truth, but even at an intellectual level, I was interested by how different fact and my husband’s recollections were. He minimised so much - for example, he would tell me that he’d been past her house on the way back from work 2 or 3 times for 20 minutes each time. Once I was able to see it on the map, it was more like 6 times and, while some of them were for 20 minutes, others were for almost an hour. 

After my first post, a lot of you challenged my "they only kissed" statements. I admit that I had doubts. Otherwise I probably would never have posted here. After I found out how much they could have been alone (he said someone else e.g. her kids were always at her house when he was there), I was becoming more and more convinced that they had had sex. My WH told me that he wanted to have the polygraph, and that he'd feel the same in my position. So I finally found a really nice examiner (Google search infidelity+ polygraph + mytown) and my WH actually did a polygraph. The whole experience was incredibly surreal. 

Anyway, it came back good. i.e. he wasn't lying about the fact that they had only kissed - no other sexual contact of any kind (I was pretty specific about what this could have been). The examiner also asked him whether there had been anything else of significance (statements of love etc.) that my WH hadn't already told me about. And the answer to that was also no. 

I’ll write up what I know of their affair “story” in the next post. For anyone who interested or who might learn something useful.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Mizzbak said:


> My husband has cheated on me … again.
> 
> Anyone got any wisdom for me?


Yes... Whatever you do, don't R with a serial cheater.



Mizzbak said:


> I just wanted to give an update on where things are with me – for what it’s worth, my WH and I are still trying to R.


:wtf:


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

I was re-reading my post of a few days ago and realised that "for what it’s worth, my WH and I are still trying to R" sounds a bit wishy-washy. 

If our marriage were a house (which has suffered significant fire damage), then we're currently living in the garage. We're now past the stage of agreeing that we actually need a completely new house and are currently in the process of drawing up plans. We have architects/therapists involved. And we're both trying to figure out how to do it much, much better next time. Do I think that my husband was the one who actually lit the match? Yes. Do I acknowledge that between my husband and I and some other marital/life debris there was a bunch of flammable stuff lying around? Yes. Am I still (somewhere in the back corner of my mind) reserving the right to throw in the towel and run home to mama? On not so great days, indeedy.

Anyway, I wanted to reply to some of the comments that you'd all made:



BetrayedDad said:


> Yes... Whatever you do, don't R with a serial cheater.
> :wtf:


I was first going to respond in kind with some kind of glib and hopefully witty quip. (DYK that EnviroKidz makes a crispy rice cereal with the cutest cheetah in its logo.)
Then I was sufficiently motivated to go and read some of your story, and so I will try and respond to your comment in a little more depth.

I suppose that all of us can be baffled by other people's relationships, especially marriages. Why some work (as weird, unbalanced and peculiar as they may seem from the outside) and others don't (as happy and normal as they looked - again from the outside). I think that in the end, it boils down to what each party gets for what they give. 

I am a pretty analytical person. So I can tell you with reasonable confidence that my husband's second affair used up less than 100 hours of his life (this is an exceedingly generous estimate.) His first affair (more than 10 years ago - why does that make me think of Donald Trump?) was considerably less resource-intensive - again, let's be very generous - another 30 hours. My husband and I have lived together for almost 15 years. As long as I can remember, he has gotten up first and made me a cup of coffee, which he brings to me in bed. (I am not a morning person.) On a weekend day, sometimes he brings me 2 or 3 cups before I drag myself out of bed because I absolutely have to. (I am really not a morning person.) If I assume that each cup of coffee he makes for me takes 5 minutes to make, then he has spent more than 400 hours making me cups of coffee first thing in the morning. It is perhaps a foolish example, but it is also real. And I have a very long list of many more examples. Should my husband be reduced to being only a "serial cheater" when I try to decide whether my marriage to him is worth trying to save? Or can I acknowledge that he is an imperfect human being who spends most of his life trying very hard to be a good one - and like me, screws up on occasion? Please don't think that this means I feel that his sin against me is small. It is huge. And he knows this and has owned up to it. 




Sephirox said:


> I think you are giving your husband too much of the power play here. I feel like he cheated and his "remorse" and words of regret are bs, since this is not his first rodeo. He hasn't been held accountable so it is likely he will continue this behavior.


Yes, Sephirox, I agree with you that he wasn't held accountable in the past. Our handling of his first affair was all wrong. He didn't really have to face consequences aside from some angst and guilt at the time. He got away with telling himself that it was an anomaly and would never happen again. Although he also went to therapy then, he didn't confront the cowardly, manipulative parts of himself that allowed him to cheat on me. This time round, he has had quite a different experience :

he had to take a polygraph to prove that he had disclosed fully and face up the fact that he can no longer expect me to just believe him and take his words at face value, possibly ever again
he has had to acknowledge that his actions and decisions have negated our marriage vows; and any action that I may or may not choose to take to follow up on that is out of his control 
I have realised that although I may still love him, this doesn't mean that it is the best decision for me that we remain married. I made this clear in a very unemotional context, and frankly I think this is the one that scares him the most.
he got away with a "temporary insanity" argument last time, this time he has had to admit that he has a fundamental character weakness 
this time, I haven't been "strong" and I have been brutally open about the extent of the damage that his infidelity caused to our marriage and me
last time, his actions were primarily against me, this time he has two sons in the equation as well. When I showed him proof that he had "used" them to see his affair partner more often and easily and that they had been at least partially aware that he was spending so much time with her, it had a big impact. 

I'm not sure that he has "the power" at the moment. To be honest, I feel like I'm the one that is automatically in the right. In fact, I've started to realise that with time, we have to switch back to being equal partners. But this will take a while. And as to his remorse being genuine - I think that he has far more empathy and understanding of where I'm at than before. Last time I was spun tales of "not really being in love with you before" and "feeling trapped"; this time I've seen a far more honest acknowledgement of a fundamental character failing. Right up front. No justification. Just - I'm so very sorry, I was a coward and bastard. I want to make this right. Please tell me how.



ne9907 said:


> THIS!!!
> 
> OP, would you feel okay elaborating on your depression issues?
> 
> ...


ne9907 - my depression was a pretty major one. I was never suicidal, but I was certainly emotionally unavailable for a large part of it. I was on some fairly strong drugs that definitely modified my personality during the time I took them, although I think that they were helpful in dealing with the depression. I just felt like a different person for quite a while. Coming out of it, I can tell you that my husband handled some of it wrong, in that he just kept taking up the load. He took over a lot of my domestic responsibilities to try and make things easier for me, but all that happened is that I felt less and less needed and relevant. So all in all, not a great situation. It is easy for me to see that he would reasonably have felt resentful and unappreciated by the time he started his affair. And yes, thank you, I am currently having IC. Do I think that he is manipulating me? Perhaps at the beginning when I first found out, although probably not consciously. Now, if anything I feel like I am the one with a more objective view, the one who is more in control.



She'sStillGotIt said:


> You're lying to yourself. :|
> 
> In your first post in this thread, you *clearly* state that this guy has been cheating on you since BEFORE you even married him, yet you're making excuses for him by claiming your depression contributed to his behavior this time. Your depression lasted for 2 years so it's obvious you WEREN'T depressed the *first* time he chose to cheat years ago, so what convenient excuse does he have for the first time he did it? And I hate to say it but god knows how many other times it's happened that you DON'T know about. In either event, don't make excuses for him by blaming your depression for being part of the reason he chose to cheat just because you want so badly to forgive him - again.


She'sStillGotIt, I did finally find a good, experienced polygraph examiner who confirmed my husband's truthfulness with respect to his recent affair and his interim behaviour. You're completely right that he didn't have my depression as an excuse the first time he cheated on me. I can find other "excuses" in terms of what was going on in both of our lives at the time, but actually what he did is not excusable. So the question is more about whether I can understand and forgive, rather than just excuse. For me there is a very big distinction.

I suppose the mental footwork that I'm guilty of at the moment is treating these as two separate situations. One happened more than 10 years ago. One happened this year. Yes, he was unfaithful in both instances, but the affairs played out very differently and happened under a different set of circumstances. I am not ignoring the past one because "It goes to show the character of the accused, your honour", but I can also admit that I am a very different person to who I was then (parenthood, if nothing else, has changed both of us). Therefore I must admit that he is also a different person. Clearly he still has the same fundamental character flaw that enabled him to cheat on me the first time, but if he has the strength of character to confront it now, then isn't this the better time to give him a second/third chance?


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Mizzbak said:


> Clearly he still has the same fundamental character flaw that enabled him to cheat on me the first time, but if he has the strength of character to confront it now, then isn't this the better time to give him a second/third chance?


How is it showing "_strength of character_" because he got caught and can't *lie *his way out of it? You've got the BH of the OW to talk to, google history that proves his whereabouts, and WAY too much proof that he can't just deny. How is *that *considered him 'confronting' it when the simple truth is that he has no choice BUT to admit it?

Sadly, it just sounds as though you're willing to try to talk yourself into believing just about anything to stay with him.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Mizzbak said:


> I am a pretty analytical person. So I can tell you with reasonable confidence that my husband's second affair used up less than 100 hours of his life (this is an exceedingly generous estimate.) His first affair (more than 10 years ago - why does that make me think of Donald Trump?) was considerably less resource-intensive - again, let's be very generous - another 30 hours. My husband and I have lived together for almost 15 years. As long as I can remember, he has gotten up first and made me a cup of coffee, which he brings to me in bed. (I am not a morning person.) On a weekend day, sometimes he brings me 2 or 3 cups before I drag myself out of bed because I absolutely have to. (I am really not a morning person.) If I assume that each cup of coffee he makes for me takes 5 minutes to make, then he has spent more than 400 hours making me cups of coffee first thing in the morning. It is perhaps a foolish example, but it is also real. And I have a very long list of many more examples. Should my husband be reduced to being only a "serial cheater" when I try to decide whether my marriage to him is worth trying to save?


Allow me to retort with an equally silly analysis. 

Let's assume tomorrow your husband decides to become a serial killer. He murders 2 people. If you add up all the time he spent stalking them, killing them and burying the bodies it might add up to 36 hours. However you have 15 years with him and he makes you coffee in the morning. So should be reduced to being only a "serial killer"? 

YUP.

P.S. - I love a good witty quip. Feel free next time.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Mizzbak said:


> I met with the OW's husband. We compared notes and I found out that I had been given a far clearer picture of the truth than him. I am not sure, but when I last communicated with him they were separated and it looked as though a R was unlikely. The OW has since written me an apology email. Which was weird. I responded (after a week or so) that I hoped that her life will come right. Her first marriage broke up because her husband cheated very blatantly on her. And I know that she feels very guilty about pursuing a relationship with my husband. I don't feel very much animosity towards her at all. This worries me slightly (am I nurturing a boiling pit of rage somewhere and haven't noticed it yet?). *But really, this has become less and less about her. (I haven't stalked her online for at least a few days ...) My pain comes from my husband breaking his promise to me. She had not made me any promises. As far as I am concerned, my WH is 100 % responsible for his actions and decisions and their impact on me.*


Mizzbak, this para stood out for me, particularly the bolded. This is all your growth with your eyes wide open... to direct any ill feelings at someone that you have absolutely no control over is wasted energy... but that said, you have no control over your husband's poor choices either. 

The only promise you can make is your's to yourself, every other promise ever made from someone to you may end up an unrealistic expectation that disappoints, this is why I say the strongest promise is the one you keep to yourself and how you will hold yourself honorable and accountable. 

Your husband broke his promise to himself to be many things for you, sadly you are left suffering the fallout from that broken self-promise. When that happens, all one can do is keep their boundaries clear and presentable so there is no question if those self-promises fall and you can focus on what matters... you.

Please continue to leave the hot coal on the ground... it will only burn you if you pick it up to throw, even with the slightest grip.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm curious to know what steps you have both taken to ensure there is no THIRD time.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I think people can change if they have a come to Jesus moment and stand to lose everything. Serial cheaters are probably the hardest to crack. You have to have a contingency plan in place to ensure if this happens again....it could, you know exactly what you are going to do and you will follow through on it. It should be a policy of 'three strikes and you are out'


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> How is it showing "_strength of character_" because he got caught and can't *lie *his way out of it? You've got the BH of the OW to talk to, google history that proves his whereabouts, and WAY too much proof that he can't just deny. How is *that *considered him 'confronting' it when the simple truth is that he has no choice BUT to admit it?
> 
> Sadly, it just sounds as though you're willing to try to talk yourself into believing just about anything to stay with him.


Looking back over my initial posts, there is something that I didn't make clear. When I found out about the recent affair from the OW's H, he only had a very small part of the story (one kiss, just the once and some emotional sharing ... again, just that once). My first reaction when I heard it was to minimise it and I remember thinking "that's not so bad" (please keep vomiting noises down to a dull roar). My husband "admitted" to this. I took this at face value (yes, I know, deep in denial and you can all beat me up about it later). For around two weeks I wallowed in fuzzy feelings of forgiveness and my WH and I spoke at length about why our marriage had allowed this, why we weren't in a better place etc. Then my WH confessed to me, without any other evidence coming to the fore, that the relationship was not a one-time emotional ONS and that things had been a lot more serious. 

This was prior to any Google history, credit card analysis etc. He was pretty honest. He didn't try and sugarcoat it. I got a lot of details. Not all of them quantitatively accurate - for example, he went past her house 6 times, not "around 3" and stayed for around an hour on 2 of these occasions, and not the "20 minutes to half an hour" he told me about (which as true for the other 4 times). But, there is nothing that I have found out since that he didn't tell me about at a generic level in this and subsequent more detailed conversations. For what it's worth, my IC therapist has since challenged me to recall any part of my life from 4 months ago (nevermind a part that I was really ashamed of) in quantitative detail and that was ... interesting.

Was he was calculating the probable likelihood of more evidence coming out and was looking to manage the damage as best he could. Possibly. Although you have to realise that my WH is seriously conflict averse. Ridiculously so sometimes. He also knew that the OW and her H were close to separation and she was unlikely to tell her husband more (the OW BH had already gone through all her undeleted emails and messages in detail). My WH didn't even know about the Google location history possibility then. He was very taken aback when I showed him how much I could find out that way a few weeks ago. And the Google location history, and credit card and cellphone records (when I later pulled them all together once the denial numbness had lifted and I was constructively ANGRY) corroborated what he had told me already. So, on the balance of probabilities, I think that he was driven as much by the need to be honest with me as he was by damage control.

Yes, I do think that I am putting a positive spin on things. But I don't think that I'm doing it blindly.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

@BetrayedDad - you strike me as a pretty black/white type of person. I'm more of a many shades of grey (absolutely no pun intended here). 

May I ask, on the continuum of undesirable/immoral spousal behaviour from "flirting a little with a colleague at the end-of-year office party" through ONS's and EA's and PA's to "having a whole other life and family with someone else", where you would put the line? That would be the line that decides whether you as the hypothetical betrayed spouse would even be willing to try and reconcile/repair a marriage. 

(Thank you - I have spent several edifying moments on the FBI pages understanding the differences between mass murderers, serial killers and spree killers. Anyone for Trivial Pursuit? :nerd


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Mizzbak said:


> May I ask, on the continuum of undesirable/immoral spousal behaviour from "flirting a little with a colleague at the end-of-year office party" through ONS's and EA's and PA's to "having a whole other life and family with someone else", where you would put the line? That would be the line that decides whether you as the hypothetical betrayed spouse would even be willing to try and reconcile/repair a marriage.


I suppose I try to be though in the past I have knowingly dabbled in the gray expecting that if I get burned again, I had no one to blame but myself. 

In my youth, my line was an PA. I let my ex get away with a prior EA and in hindsight it was a terrible mistake. The EA was just a prelude to more pain. Despite my repeated warnings on numerous occasions that I would leave if she ever had a PA she went and had one anyway. Later on, I discovered it wasn't her first. I should of left after the first EA and I assure you I will never make that mistake again. 

I do find some "sins" more forgivable than others I suppose. A PA is worse than an EA. Several PAs are worse than one. I do not reject reconciliation in its entirety. A TRUELY remorseful spouse is worth giving a second chance to. They are just exceptionally rare people. If the affair was very brief (less than say a month), not physical, the person fully confessed on their own without prompting, and they put in massive work to fix things then yes that person might be worth hanging on to.

In your specific situation? Absolutely not. You are too intelligent not to realize it is solely your codependence that is keeping you with him. That is not healthy for anyone and it's an issue you should seek counseling for. You are using the rationalization hamster in your brain to engineer an outcome that you can live with. If you spent half as much energy moving on from him, you would be in a far better place and a much stronger person.


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## NothingsOriginal (Sep 23, 2016)

Mizzbak said:


> ....Yes, Legend, I 100% think that my depression was a contributing factor...



No! *You absolutely cannot accept blame for his cheating.*

There are lots of things I'd like to say here, but I want this one to stand out loud and clear.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

Dear @turnera,

This is a really good question. A big part of my focus at the moment is in dealing with the past hurts ... never mind ensuring that future ones don't happen. But, we both agree that any possible future requires that measures be put in place. (Our old marriage is dead. Long live our marriage.)

I've been thinking about my behaviour around my husband's relationship with the OW, this SECOND time. At some level, I was so eager to prove that I trusted him (after the long-ago affair) that I ignored the rumblings of my own intuition. In December (before the affair started, or at least before either of them knew they were doing something overtly wrong) I mistakenly intercepted a WhatsApp from her to him. There was nothing at all improper about it, but I remember thinking that her tone was ... familiar. Like they were better friends than the picture of their relationship that I had in my mind. But I kept quiet. I wasn't really happy about them spending time together (initially they did this openly as they were part of a running group), but I felt like I couldn't object because this was for my WH's health... exercise is good etc. And I didn't want to remind my husband about his past infidelity - as in, it's done and over and we've moved on. I didn't want to drag up old feelings. 

Now, I have no compunction about this. It is like he is an alcoholic and always will be one. (He is the one who has used the addiction analogy.) That means that he can't have a none-couple based friendship with a woman, ever. No exceptions - always our friend. Never just his. Work colleagues are a bit more complex, but we've already discussed strategies for him managing any working relationships. We've agreed to follow a version of Dr Harley's Principle of Joint Agreement The Policy of Joint Agreement. I've made it clear that if I raise an issue in this context, it isn't (necessarily) because I'm accusing him of infidelity. Even if I'm uncomfortable, this makes it a critical issue because of his history. Honestly, I'd be happy for it to work the same the other way round. I don't want any other relationships (no matter how innocent they may be) to make my husband feel uncomfortable. 

Total transparency on all electronic forms of communication. Indefinitely. My husband is a pretty private person. Even when he doesn't have anything to hide. Me, I really couldn't give a continental. I know that this is probably artificial and that if he wanted to he could get around it, but basically for the next 50+ years if I want to read his phone, then I read it. Look at his email, then I look. Unless he can give me a really good reason. (Then see above). Location tracker on his phone - always on.. Although, this is the same for me. We have security concerns in our area, so this is pretty much a no-brainer from that perspective. It also means that if my husband is out riding his motorbike then I can worry less. (Or at least in a more geographically precise way.) Regarding these last two - I could have done them before. But I didn't look. Didn't even think to look. If I had, I would have seen the affair almost immediately it started. Now I do this already and will continue to do so. Like checking oil and water on my vehicle. Oh, and finally in this vein. My husband sometimes travels a lot during the day from client to client. So now (after recent, very stressed out check from my side) he has to log all off-site meetings in his work calendar - who, were and why. Helpful for tax purposes and also addressing "why were you here" concerns from a working-herself-up-to-angry wife. 

Anyone got any other suggestions?


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> I suppose I try to be though in the past I have knowingly dabbled in the gray expecting that if I get burned again, I had no one to blame but myself.
> 
> In my youth, my line was an PA. I let my ex get away with a prior EA and in hindsight it was a terrible mistake. The EA was just a prelude to more pain. Despite my repeated warnings on numerous occasions that I would leave if she ever had a PA she went and had one anyway. Later on, I discovered it wasn't her first. I should of left after the first EA and I assure you I will never make that mistake again.


If I am correct in assuming that you will never get into a relationship with your ex again, then why should her behaviour towards you decide how you treat anyone else that you have a future relationship with? I completely understand the "once bitten, twice shy" thing, but why should a future spouse/partner be treated worse than you treated your ex (i.e. not be given at least the same chance)? Future partners/spouses ≠ clones of ex (and therefore maybe deserve a second chance)? "Those who do not learn from their past are doomed to repeat it" can be read in many different ways (at the risk of sounding a bit too philosophical). 



BetrayedDad said:


> A TRUELY remorseful spouse is worth giving a second chance to. They are just exceptionally rare people. If the affair was very brief (less than say a month), not physical, the person fully confessed on their own without prompting, and they put in massive work to fix things then yes that person might be worth hanging on to.


Yes, exceptionally rare. No argument here. Lottery winners too. Still buy a ticket, sometimes. When I feel lucky. (And now I can't get rid of a small, excessively grumpy Clint Eastwood in the back corner of my mind.)



BetrayedDad said:


> In your specific situation? Absolutely not. You are too intelligent not to realize it is solely your codependence that is keeping you with him. That is not healthy for anyone and it's an issue you should seek counseling for. You are using the rationalization hamster in your brain to engineer an outcome that you can live with. If you spent half as much energy moving on from him, you would be in a far better place and a much stronger person.


Possibly codependence + 2 kids + in general, I actually really quite like him (infidelity aside he has been a damn good husband for almost 12 years). And also that fact that he really did only kiss the OW (during the second affair); although he had means and opportunity, he didn't have sex or fondle anything - polygraph proof. The first time, he had an even easier opportunity that he didn't take up. So, these were not PA's (as I understand them, anyway). And I was depressed, so was pretty much checked out for almost two years. And ... That's the bummer with mitigating circumstances - once they start, you just can't stop them. It's like an avalanche. 

Anyway, thank you for your words BetrayedDad. I hear them (I think) in the spirit in which they were intended. I appreciate your honesty and forthrightness. I hope that your relationship journey is easy and your way is clear. 

My husand just brought me a cup of tea and now I need to go to sleep (for we are currently on the Darker Side of the Earth).


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Mizzbak said:


> If I am correct in assuming that you will never get into a relationship with your ex again, then why should her behaviour towards you decide how you treat anyone else that you have a future relationship with? I completely understand the "once bitten, twice shy" thing, but why should a future spouse/partner be treated worse than you treated your ex (i.e. not be given at least the same chance)? Future partners/spouses ≠ clones of ex (and therefore maybe deserve a second chance)? "Those who do not learn from their past are doomed to repeat it" can be read in many different ways (at the risk of sounding a bit too philosophical).


Understand where I am coming from. I would never project the person my ex was on anyone else. My current girlfriend, whom I adore, has more decency in her pinky than my ex does in her entire body. I learned never to trust my ex again. I trust my current girlfriend implicitly. As long as she never gives me reason not too, I will continue to. There are other fish in the sea who don't need 2nd, 3rd, or 4th chances. No ones irreplaceable. In fact, QUITE the opposite. Sometimes the grass IS greener.



Mizzbak said:


> And also that fact that he really did only kiss the OW (during the second affair); although he had means and opportunity, he didn't have sex or fondle anything - polygraph proof. The first time, he had an even easier opportunity that he didn't take up. So, these were not PA's (as I understand them, anyway). And I was depressed, so was pretty much checked out for almost two years.


Sigh.... minimizing his behavior and blaming yourself is simply setting yourself for a false reconciliation. If you choose to pursue this course of action, you MUST accept the heinousness of his deed and NOT assume responsibility for HIS actions. HE HAS FREE WILL, NO ONE FORCED HIM TO TAKE THE COWARDS ROUTE AND CHEAT. 

FYI: Kissing his considered a PA (it involves physical contact) and to go one step further adults have sex. Polygraphs can duped and are certainly NOT definitive proof.



Mizzbak said:


> Anyway, thank you for your words BetrayedDad. I hear them (I think) in the spirit in which they were intended. I appreciate your honesty and forthrightness. I hope that your relationship journey is easy and your way is clear.
> 
> My husband just brought me a cup of tea and now I need to go to sleep (for we are currently on the Darker Side of the Earth).


I wish you luck. You seem to be a good soul, I'm sorry you are experiencing this pain. I know it all too well. My cure was to remove the tumor. YOU DESERVE SO MUCH MORE THAN HIM. I sincerely hope one day you will realize it. 

I visited England on vacation a few years ago. Fantastic trip, enjoyed it immensely!


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Mizzbak said:


> So I can tell you with reasonable confidence that my husband's second affair used up less than 100 hours of his life (this is an exceedingly generous estimate.)


Really? Like really really? I am as much as a numbers nerd as anyone, but to conclude that his affair took up to less than 100 hours of his life is deluding yourself. Lies, damned lies and statistics. That stat, assuming it has some sort of feasibility, is only representative of direct or tangible time spent with the other woman (talking, sexting, sexing, what have you). This doesn't include time spent thinking about her. Imagining her. Desiring her and fornicating thinking of her (whether it was by himself, or with you). Odds are, most of his day was consumed with her. He probably has a notebook with WS:hearts:OW. This time also does not include the time it takes for him to justify to himself hurting you AGAIN. Or really, ignoring the lack of integrity he has. It took him 10 years to get to a point where yo caught him a second time. He had integrity that whole time? Or he just got away with it. Whatever the case, his lack of morals and his love for you were the last two things that took up a significant amount of time.

Now, if you want to imagine that this is best for you, go ahead. The thought of not being with the guy you have is scary. The problem is that you aren't with him now. You are with a turd and he keeps on smearing himself all over you and you refuse to take a shower.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mizzbak said:


> It is like he is an alcoholic and always will be one. (He is the one who has used the addiction analogy.) That means that he can't have a none-couple based friendship with a woman, ever. No exceptions - always our friend. Never just his. Work colleagues are a bit more complex, but we've already discussed strategies for him managing any working relationships. We've agreed to follow a version of Dr Harley's Principle of Joint Agreement The Policy of Joint Agreement. I've made it clear that if I raise an issue in this context, it isn't (necessarily) because I'm accusing him of infidelity. Even if I'm uncomfortable, this makes it a critical issue because of his history.


He IS an alcoholic. But his drug is ATTENTION.

The inherent underlying truth here is that if he doesn't feel enough 'fuzziness' from you, if he doesn't get enough of a 'high' from you, doesn't get his ego stroked enough by you, HE WILL CHEAT.

It's an addiction, it's an illness, and IT DOESN'T GO AWAY. 

Not unless HE starts going to therapy - and LOTS OF IT. To figure out what, in his childhood, caused him to need to keep having his ego (or his 'fun sense') stroked continuously or else he 'has to' seek it out elsewhere.

We don't change who we are. Not without LOTS OF THERAPY. Without it, he will ALWAYS seek out a stroke of some sort, and it will have nothing to do with you.

There was a woman on a forum awhile back whose husband 'needed' a pretty, petite, sexy wife. Literally, he NEEDED it, for whatever reason was created in his childhood and childhood psyche. There was literally NOTHING she could do to remain this ideal he had created in his head. Because, guess what? She was human and she aged!

Until you two address what the hell's going on in his brain that causes him to seek out 'more,' you will continue to deal with one affair after another.

Unless, of course, you grow a pair and just move on. THEN, you just might become the woman of his dreams.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

turnera said:


> The inherent underlying truth here is that if he doesn't feel enough 'fuzziness' from you, if he doesn't get enough of a 'high' from you, doesn't get his ego stroked enough by you, HE WILL CHEAT.
> 
> It's an addiction, it's an illness, and IT DOESN'T GO AWAY.


100% god's honest truth here OP and to go one step further. 

It's a standard that is IMPOSSIBLE to live up to. He chases the exhilaration of a "new" relationship. He chases lust. The undying love you have to offer is boring to him and lacks appeal. 

Do you want to spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder? Playing warden? Trying to "keep him happy" so he doesn't leave you? That's not a relationship. It's a prison sentence. I personally would rather be alone. Seek help for your codependency OP. If he made you so happy for 12 years, why is he pursuing multiple women? That doesn't add up.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

To each his own but do you really want to spend the rest of your life looking over yours and his shoulders, that is no way to live, I would rather be divorced. Sorry.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

@turnera , @aine and @BetrayedDad - you are all correct. I cannot spend my whole life looking over my and his shoulder. It isn't in my nature; neither is it what I want my marriage to be. I had a very fruitful IC session since my last post which gave me a lot of clarity. Herewith some secondhand therapy + other updates:

#1. I had been thinking about my future in a very binary way. My choices were either divorce or a full commitment to my marriage with no future possible exit/reassessment. My therapist challenged me on this - actually, I don't yet know whether I will be able to get over the hurt my husband has caused me. I don't yet know whether, with the best will in the world and him doing everything he could possibly be asked to do to regain it, I can ever trust him again. I also believe that trust is an integral part of marriage. So a third choice is to just see whether we can reach a place of forgiveness and trust that would enable us to grow a healthy marriage going forward. It still requires a full commitment on my part (and obviously his) to trying, but it doesn't presuppose/pre-assume that all is forgiven and that things will work out in the end. Which is, I guess, actually just real life. 

#2. The measures that I spoke of in my last post - these are currently ongoing. They are a product of my response to my husband's recent behaviour and choices. If I still need them to be in place in 5 or 10 years, then clearly I haven’t been able to trust him as I should have. I settled on the analogy of these measures being a trellis/support post over which our marriage can grow. They are necessary now, not because I actually think there is even the vaguest chance that he is currently having an affair, but because they represent a commitment to redeveloping my trust in him (on my part) and earning back trust (on his).

#3. @turnera - I think I spoke earlier of the significant difference in my husband's mental state compared with that following my first DDay. He has been in IC now for some weeks, addressing why he had the affair and how he convinced himself that what he did was OK at the time. Several things have surfaced that reassure me that he is not just going through the motions. We've been more honest with each other in the past few weeks than ever before in our marriage - frankly, it sometimes sucks. Is it weird that this can be in a good way? I am in no doubt that, if it is possible to understand and control this part of himself, he wants this and will try with everything he has to do so. 

#4. My mental state - I won't deny that we are currently in circumstances that make it difficult for me adjust to the concept of divorce/separation. They are numerous and life-impinging. But I dispute (with great vigour) that I am unable to imagine a life without him and don't have the strength to live it if necessary. (Although, as he is the father of my children, I would never actually be entirely free of him, anyway.) 

Recently I challenged him with the fact that he hadn't actually chosen me over the OW; but rather that the path to her (two divorces, four children in broken marriages, considerable judgement from his family, a lot of financial and administrative mess, reputational damage) was actually just too much effort. He asked me if I thought that the path that he was currently on (IC; confronting this very weak and immoral part of himself; addressing all my questions about the affair, over and over again; dealing with my parents knowing about the affair, the polygraph, the intense electronic surveillance; starting to change the way that we interacted in the past (with him conflict-averse, at best passive-aggressive) to something a lot more functional) had been easy for him. He was quick to assure me that he would do all this all over again and anything more I asked; so this wasn't resentment. Just him wanting me to know that he was trying. Really, really hard. 

So no, it isn't that I can't imagine life without him, but more that I just can't imagine walking away as long as he is genuinely remorseful and willing to try to do everything he can to ensure a reconciliation. For the first time, we're both openly acknowledging that this doesn't guarantee that we'll still be married in 5 or 10 years time; but it has a far greater hope of it than just rug sweeping, closing our eyes tightly and hoping for the best (which I can say, based on personal experience, is not a good way to go).


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Mizzbak said:


> My husband has cheated on me … again. I don’t know what to do. Even if I did, I don’t know whether I have the energy to do it. I love him very much. He says that he loves me very much. He wants our marriage to survive this; and is willing to do whatever he can to save it.
> 
> The first OW was someone he met online – the relationship started before we were married and then morphed into an EA that he carried on via email for the first year of our marriage until I fell pregnant with our first child. He had told me about a very passionate kiss before we got married (we took a break to rethink things before recommitting ourselves to the relationship), but I only found out the full story later by chance. There were actually secret meetings and phone calls, a ONS (stopping just short of sex) and, even after our marriage, a very emotional and romantic email exchange. When I found out by accident, I was devastated. I told him that I wanted a divorce, he (as non-confrontational as he is) fought back with how sorry he was and how he wasn’t going to let me throw away our relationship and family on something so stupid that he’d done. We went to MC and he went to IC. It was painful, but we grew up and grew together, had another son, and the affair became something of a badge that we had collected as a couple. Our experience together had made us stronger, more real and honest with each other. I can honestly say that I trusted him completely again.
> 
> ...


Sorry you have gone through this again Mizzbak. No one deserves to be treated like you have.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

How are things now?


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