# Extreme incompatability, but wasn't always that way



## Aitrus (Mar 25, 2013)

So I've been ghosting for a while trying to find some guidance for my situation. Perhaps somebody here can help me.

I've been married to my best friend, my wife, for 15 years, and we've got 2 wonderful little girls. We're both 33, and she was my father's boss's daughter. Our parents babysat for each other when we were kids. We didn't date until high school, but we tied the knot before we graduated. Everything in our relationship is great - money, raising the kids, career choices, etc. We have small fights on just about most subjects now and then, but that's expected.

The problem is this: we're extremely sexually incompatable. Intercourse is physically painful for her, so we must always go slow. It's difficult, so it ends up being a chore. As a result of the pain, she doesn't want to have sex often. She also is very, very puritan in her views on things other than missionary-style intercourse - meaning that except for kissing and touching above the navel, absolutely everything else is taboo / obscene. This would include manual or oral stimulation as well, either giving or recieving. We are currently at 9 months without anything beyond a quick hug and peck hello and goodbye. 

It wasn't always like this - she was a wildcat when we were dating, and a lot of the above taboos were in play on a regular basis. That changed after the wedding - literally. Nothing on our wedding night, and nothing at all on our honeymoon. Didn't see so much as her underwear, much less anything else. She once told me that this period in her life was her "exploration" phase - her trying to figure out what she did and didn't like. Whenever we do have sex it's according to a very strict menu and script, and any deviation is instant ceasing of activities. When I try to tell her that I need more than just "insert tab A into slot B", and more than just once every few months, she said I was BSing her. She firmly believes that men don't "need" sex, it's just an excuse to get into a gal's pants.

Now, I am a very sexual and sensuous individual. To me intimacy is a core part of the relationship. I like cuddling, hugs, making out, etc. She's completely the opposite. Any affection I try to give her is rebuffed, or coldly tolerated. She says that she doesn't need that kind of affection, doesn't want it, and feels like I'm interrupting whatever it was she was doing for no good reason - it's annoying to her. It's gotten to the point where I might think about hugging her, but don't because I know I'll just get rejected, and so feel rejection even without having done anything.

We've gone to doctors to deal with the pain - to no avail. The pain is caused by a severe hormone imbalance, which causes her to be extremely dry. She describes it as having a sunburn. Lubrication doesn't work - it's like taking a hot shower and getting the water on the sunburn - it just burns more. Medications don't work - the only one that was even slightly effective killed off what little libido she did have. 

We've had dozens of conversations about this. I've suggested counseling, which she adamantly refuses to go to. It's gotten to the point where all the sides have spoken, all the facts, opinions and needs have been laid out, and each side understands the other. She understands that I'm not satisfied with what sex she is willing to have, refuses to consider even things she engaged in during the distant past, and disagrees that there's a problem. If there's a problem, then it's with me because she's fine with how things are. I have been told that I need to either accept her as is and stop trying to change her mind and actions, or we need to get a divorce.

I don't want to divorce my wife because of a lack of sex, yet I don't see any willingness on her part to bring me pleasure in the ways that are best suited to me. She only pleases me in the ways that best suit her, and I'd better be happy with it, or else... I am more than willing to do anything it takes to please her - my inhibitions are far and away beyond what her limits are - yet the only way she will be pleased is if I sacrifice my pleasure almost completely.

Any advice for me?

Thanks in advance.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Your wife does not care about your needs at all which basically means you are not that important to her.

Either tell her that this has to be fixed or get a divorce. Your only other option is to sacrifice your self this way for the rest of your life.


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## monkeysmommy (Dec 29, 2012)

I don't agree that your wife doesn't think that you're important or that you should jump to a divorce. However, I do not think that it is fair, to you, that before marriage she was a wildcat and now nothing. That is like false advertising!! Do you think that you would have married her if she was the way she is now? I am not sure what the answer is. It seems like you have tried talking to her about this, but get nowhere. 

Maybe you should let her know that you love her, but have needs and desires that are not being fulfilled. You could also compliment her on the things that you enjoyed and that she did so well before marriage. Letting her know that you miss that part of her. 

I also am inclined to think that something happened after the marriage. I can't say what that is, but it is very strange she would do all of these things and then AFTER marriage stop completely. Did she not have this medical condition before marriage? 

Best of luck to you ~


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

1. Live in a sexless marriage 

2. Sexless marriage and have affairs or go to prostitutes. 

3. Get a divorce 

Based on what you wrote, pick one.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You are subscribing to two incorrect notions.

First, divorce is a process. Sometimes you start that process to determine whether your wife wants her marriage or not... 

Second, you are being made to feel wrong and perverted for being a normal human man with an emotional need for sexual fulfillment in his marriage.

In order to have any chance of having a decent marriage, you have to admit to yourself that this is very important to you.

Now, by any standard a marriage involves both people "giving" and both people "recieving"... What you should give should equal what your wife needs emotionally, and what your wife should "give" should be what you need emotionally.

And until you have that as a the set up or definition of your marriage, you really do not have a very good marriage.


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## Aitrus (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks for answers folks. It's much appreciated.

I've often been told by my wife that if I loved her, I wouldn't ask her to do things that she doesn't want to do or is now uncomfortable doing. 

MM, you also asked if she had the medical condition before the marriage. The answer is yes, but at the time it didn't affect our sex. As the problem gradually got worse, with hurt feelings on both sides and ineffectual treatments leading to tears and frustration, it's eventually become an extremely painful topic to talk about. 

Not having actual intercourse dosen't bother me - I don't blame my wife for her condition - it's not her fault. What she can control, however, is her actions within the rest of our intimacy...or rather lack of actions. She feels that while it sucks that we can't have the intercourse we would like, she doesn't want to participate in anything other than intercourse. I could handle the situation if I were satisfied in other ways, but this isn't happening, and she is absolutely closed to the idea.

monkeysmommy, you also mentioned changes or events in the relationship. Yes, I think there were some events that I think contributed to this. 

First, she worked for a time at a women's health clinic, and she saw all kinds of issues walk in the door. We both get cold sores, and while in nursing school she learned that cold sores can be transmitted to genetalia, and that those same sores can cause cancers. She's not adverse to oral because of this - and because she professes a dislike for oral, either giving or recieving - so that option of fulfilling my needs is out.

Second, we went through a rough patch when our first child was born. She was hospitalized for a couple of months, and what made it worse is that I'm in the military and I ended up having to fly home from a warzone on a special flight to be by her side. There was lots of stress involved, both for her and myself. I have also been taken away from her at random times with only a few hours' notice to be gone for a day or two up to a month in length. I don't know how this affected her trust in me to be there when it matters, but I think it likely.

Hicks, it wasn't I that brought up the idea of divorce, it was she who asked if I wanted to separate. I do know that sex is a core part of any deep relationship I'm in, whether it be this one or another one. And I agree witht he "giving" and "recieving" to each person according to what they need emotionally and physically.

All that said, my wife disagrees with the idea that it's "give and take". She believes that you just enjoy each other as they are, that you don't try to get more out of them than they are comfortable giving, and that if you're not comfortable with that then why are you together? 

I think that one contributor to this is that we married young - I was 18 all of a month and still in high school, and she was 18 as well, but graduated the year before I. We both think that we shouldn't have married so young.

Then there's my kids - I grew up in a divorced household, and it was very, very rough for us. I don't want to do that to my kids. I don't want to be my father. 

And lastly, despite all the pain, I still love my wife. She's my best friend - but maybe that's the problem. She's my friend first and foremost, but not my lover. Not for a long time, anyway.

Maneo, your 3 options is basically what I've arrived at. I haven't cheated on her, but I've strongly considered it and rejected it each time.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Your wife has no interest in providing for your needs. You need to accept that. So far, you've thought that, if you could only explain things to her, she would finally understand your needs and begin to provide for them. She won't. So give it up.

The simplest answer is to file for divorce. There are other women you can have relationships with that would happily provide for your sexual needs. And, you would be rid of a woman who doesn't care about you all that much.

Another easy answer is to just shut up and deal with your life. You married a frigid woman who is either not sexual at all, or just not into you at all. I know that's easier said than done. But, it's an option.

Another option is to have affairs. That is self-explanatory.

Another option is to suggest an open marriage. You remain married to her, but you have sexual relationships with other women. If she really is as asexual as she claims to be, this would probably be a good solution for her. The pressure would be off her. She can focus on the kids, the house, and/or her job, and you can have your needs met. She could meet some of your needs, and other women could meet the needs she's unwilling to meet.

Now, most women would object to an open marriage. That's because they aren't really that disinterested in sex. They're just making a power play in the marriage. Your wife is sentencing you to a lifetime of celibacy. You have to decide whether you're going to give her that authority, or not.

I also recommend you go to Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits. and read the Primer to get some good advice.

Good luck.


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## Aitrus (Mar 25, 2013)

PHT, I did take a short look at it last night on Amazon. The negative reviews were very telling as to his approach. I'm not into mind games or power play in a relationship. Does this primer encourage that?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Aitrus said:


> I've often been told by my wife that if I loved her, I wouldn't ask her to do things that she doesn't want to do or is now uncomfortable doing.


Don't let her frame the issue that way. You would be more justified in saying that she is proving her disdain for you by refusing to meet your needs.

There is another option that I forgot to mention earlier. One of the posters here, MEM, has coined an approach he calls the thermostat. You can search for threads on it.

Basically, your wife is cold and you are hot. So your marriage is warm. Your wife likes it warm. But, it's you doing all the work. So your wife puts in a little and gets a lot in return, and you put in a lot and get back less than you put in. This makes you resentful and makes your wife see you as her servant.

But you can change this. The thermostat approach means that you start matching your wife's effort in the marriage. Not on sex. Some men make the mistake of withholding sex from a wife who has been withholding sex from them. That doesn't work because you would just be giving your wife what she wants.

You have to find your wife's currency. What is it that she needs from you? Is it money? Is it conversations? Is it entertainment? You need to identify your wife's primary need and give her less of it.

She will notice this right away. When she confronts you, simply tell her that you've decided that you have decided to give her the power she wants. She has the power to decide what temperature your marriage will be. If she wants a warm marriage, then she has to be warm, so that you will be warm in return. If she is cold, you will also be cold (withholding her needs) and the marriage will be cold.

Once she believes that you will meet her needs only insofar as she meets yours, she will be much more likely to take your needs seriously.

Good luck.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Aitrus said:


> PHT, I did take a short look at it last night on Amazon. The negative reviews were very telling as to his approach. I'm not into mind games or power play in a relationship. Does this primer encourage that?


It depends on whether you call giving women what they want manipulating them.

For example, men are more attracted to full, red lips and pert, round rear ends. Women alter their appearance by using lipstick and high heel shoes to make themselves more attractive to men. Most men wouldn't call that a mind game. We would just call it dressing sexy.

However, when it's reversed, people become uncomfortable. Women are attracted to men who are confident, assertive, and attractive to other women. Men can take advantage of these preferences by playing up to them. At a party, a man can be social and tell stories. If he can pull some interest from other women, perhaps resulting in another woman openly flirting with him, then his attractiveness will probably tick up in his wife's eyes. But some people will object to that as a mind game.

Some people also object to the common strategy of "fake it 'till you make it." But I think that objection is also misplaced. If you are not confident and assertive, you shouldn't just give up. You have to try to become more confident and assertive. And you have to start somewhere. So, you should fake it temporarily. But I don't think that's a mind game, either.

Also, Dalrock had a recent post on the issue of, once men understand what women want, the bitterness that can follow.



Dalrock said:


> Being a whimpering emoting wife-following beta shouldn't be your natural state, your “real self”. If it is, then *this* is your real problem, not learning the truth about the problem.


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## Aitrus (Mar 25, 2013)

Ah, I think I understand you now, PHT. I have to be who I really am, or should be if I'm not there now. It's up to her if she wants to remain with me, but I shouldn't compromise myself for her just to be beaten down time and again. 

When I mentioned mind games or power games, the scenario I had in mind was the thermostat approach you mentioned above. It's not that I'm against it ethically or anything, just that it didn't work for me. I actually tried that method once - and it failed miserably. I did indeed lower my temp to her level and explained that I wouldn't go halfway unless she went halfway, and she responded by lowering it further and throwing in a healthy dose of blame and hurt on the side. She felt that in a real relationship "you don't keep score of who owes who what".


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Aitrus said:


> All that said, my wife disagrees with the idea that it's "give and take". She believes that you just enjoy each other as they are, that you don't try to get more out of them than they are comfortable giving, and that if you're not comfortable with that then why are you together?
> .


Your wife can disagree with it.
I disagree with the weather forecast. But that doesnt' mean I am right. 

A marriage MUST involve give and take. Your wife MUST GIVE OF HERSELF to her husband in order to love him. This is core to the concept of love, and is not avoidable.




Aitrus said:


> And lastly, despite all the pain, I still love my wife. She's my best friend - but maybe that's the problem. She's my friend first and foremost, but not my lover. Not for a long time, anyway.
> 
> .


What is Love and what is marriage?

You love her, becuase you take action to love her.

The question is, does your wife love you?

I can assure you she does not, since she does not act lovingly toward you.

I can also assure you that your wife is not "non sexual" and all this... You need to create a loving marriage or eventually your wife will find a man to provide her with one.

She craves a loving marraige where she recieves love from you in a certain unique way and gives love to you in a certain unique way.


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## Aitrus (Mar 25, 2013)

I think you hit the nail on the head, Hicks. I love her, but I'm not recieving it in return.

Ok, so after a night of reading and thinking, here's my plan.

Step 1: Change me. I can't change her, so stop trying. Reference MMSLP for directions and guidance.

Step 2: 5 Love Languages - figure out what it is that she wants 
and needs from me so I can be sure I'm not spinning my wheels.

Step 3 - Be honest with myself and assess the situation. Give it time, this won't happen overnight. What do I really want? And am I getting it? 

Step 4: Is there progress? If not, then face reality and file for divorce. The kids will be fine as long as I'm involved in some way, so don't let them influence my decision.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Aitrus said:


> So I've been ghosting for a while trying to find some guidance for my situation. Perhaps somebody here can help me.
> 
> I've been married to my best friend, my wife, for 15 years, and we've got 2 wonderful little girls. We're both 33, and she was my father's boss's daughter. Our parents babysat for each other when we were kids. We didn't date until high school, but we tied the knot before we graduated. Everything in our relationship is great - money, raising the kids, career choices, etc. We have small fights on just about most subjects now and then, but that's expected.
> 
> ...


Alot of times they are satisfied with how things ARE. So they have no motivation for change. And they know they can get away with it.

I suggest some Athol Kay "sex rank", and getting outside and having a good time. Get that attention from other ladies, and it may just perk the wife up to do what she should be doing.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Aitrus said:


> When I mentioned mind games or power games, the scenario I had in mind was the thermostat approach you mentioned above. It's not that I'm against it ethically or anything, just that it didn't work for me. I actually tried that method once - and it failed miserably. I did indeed lower my temp to her level and explained that I wouldn't go halfway unless she went halfway, and she responded by lowering it further and throwing in a healthy dose of blame and hurt on the side. She felt that in a real relationship "you don't keep score of who owes who what".


Nothing works all the time. But, you have to try to be immune to the blame and hurt. Effectively running the thermostat method, or Athol Kay's MAP, or any other strategy, means that you just decide what you're going to do, and then give your wife the opportunity to react to you.

The thermostat method is effective and fast. But, it can lead to a blow up. It forces issues to a head very quickly. So, you have to be willing to withstand the blowing winds of your wife's emotional storm. It sounds like you caved too quickly. Lesson learned.

I really think the best strategy is the MMSLP. But, it's slow. Because it's slow, it's less threatening to women and feels more organic than simply something that's been decided and forced upon them. Some things, you can begin implementing immediately. Your wife will notice. But, becoming a stronger person, who is willing to stand up for himself and refuse to be treated like a servant in his own marriage will probably take you months. Just keep the faith and know that you can get there.

Good luck.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Aitrus said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head, Hicks. I love her, but I'm not recieving it in return.
> 
> Ok, so after a night of reading and thinking, here's my plan.
> 
> Step 1: Change me. I can't change her, so stop trying. Reference MMSLP for directions and guidance.


Absolutely.



> Step 2: 5 Love Languages - figure out what it is that she wants
> and needs from me so I can be sure I'm not spinning my wheels.


Good. But, be wary of what she says. Pay at least as much attention to what she does. Some women will react positively to things that they don't believe they care about. And sometimes, they won't react at all to things they believe they care about. So adjust your strategy to what she says AND what she does.



> Step 3 - Be honest with myself and assess the situation. Give it time, this won't happen overnight. What do I really want? And am I getting it?


Absolutely.



> Step 4: Is there progress? If not, then face reality and file for divorce. The kids will be fine as long as I'm involved in some way, so don't let them influence my decision.


I wouldn't say don't let your kids influence your decision. Kids are certainly hurt in divorce. But, you shouldn't let your wife use your kids to hold you hostage. You have to be honest about what will be best for your kids. Yes, divorce is bad. And you would certainly be noble to sacrifice some of your happiness so that your kids are better off. But, how will you feel if your kids end up in marriages that look just like yours? Probably lousy. Parents have a responsibility to model appropriate behavior for their kids. Kids tend to learn more from their parents than their parents are trying to teach. So consider that, too.

Good luck.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Aitrus said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head, Hicks. I love her, but I'm not recieving it in return.
> 
> Ok, so after a night of reading and thinking, here's my plan.
> 
> ...


This is an awesome plan! 100% perfect.

Meet her needs to the best of your abilities... Don't make her fill out the qestionaires from the 5LL's... Use trial and error to see what works. IF she smiles or reacts well you are hitting her love language.. If she reacts badly or not at all you are missing... You will find that it's better to meet her needs in small doess than try for grand slams every time.

In a month or 2 when you really see that you are meeting her needs, and acting in a masculine way, and she is really enjoying her life directly as a result of your purposeful actions.... This is when she will be more movtivated to meet your needs.. That's when you assert what you belive love, marriage, the nature of a man's need for sexual fulfillment and all of this to be

I have posted this before, and it's very important:
-- A wife has to feel safe enough to be sexual with you
-- A wife has to feel unsafe to be non sexual with you

Given all her sexual conditioning and hang ups, she has to know that submitting to her sexual side is a very necessary to maintain all that she has and enjoys in her life.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Aitrus said:


> When I mentioned mind games or power games, the scenario I had in mind was the thermostat approach you mentioned above.


Make no mistake, like it or not you are right in the middle of a mind game / power struggle. And she's winning.


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