# What is it with some of the men here?



## AnnieAsh

I'm all for a person (man or woman) standing up for themselves, being honest and forthright, demanding to be their partner's priority sexually and emotionally. But this alpha stuff is absolutely KILLING me! 

I'm not unique or especially smart. I am sure I fall right in the middle of the ever present and all knowing "bell curve." The idea of my husband ignoring me, going out at night without talking to me, stopping what little he actually does around the house, that's supposed to make me want him more? It makes me HATE him. It makes me want to RUN. 

The times when I am most attracted to him is when he is looking at me like I'm the only person in the world. When he cares how I think and feel. When I'm his priority. It makes me so sad to see these men reading nonsense about the 2/3 rule and other tripe. You know what, he already has given me 2/3 of what I've given to him and I am about this close to smacking him right now! lol 

Ugh...I'm rambling and venting and having a tough night. I read those rules the alpha follows and it fits my husband to a tee and we are teetering on the edge of chaos right now. I want to scream: you're the father of my children! I want to make this work! Help me! 

So if you want to stand up for your right to watch porn whether or not your wife likes it, and flirt with other women to up your sex rank, and treat your wife like she's expendable, then DO NOT GET MARRIED. Whew. Crazy rant over.


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## waiwera

Amen!


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## Lyris

I think the idea of a simple formula that is under your control and promises you more sex is very attractive to a certain type of man in a certain type of situation. 

And not only does is let them off the hook from doing their fair share of housework, it also claims that women prefer having to all the sh*tty, boring, everyday tasks themselves and will automatically go weak at the knees if their men refuse to demean themselves with such things.


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## biola

AnnieAsh said:


> I'm all for a person (man or woman) standing up for themselves, being honest and forthright, demanding to be their partner's priority sexually and emotionally. But this alpha stuff is absolutely KILLING me!
> 
> I'm not unique or especially smart. I am sure I fall right in the middle of the ever present and all knowing "bell curve." The idea of my husband ignoring me, going out at night without talking to me, stopping what little he actually does around the house, that's supposed to make me want him more? It makes me HATE him. It makes me want to RUN.
> 
> The times when I am most attracted to him is when he is looking at me like I'm the only person in the world. When he cares how I think and feel. When I'm his priority. It makes me so sad to see these men reading nonsense about the 2/3 rule and other tripe. You know what, he already has given me 2/3 of what I've given to him and I am about this close to smacking him right now! lol
> 
> Ugh...I'm rambling and venting and having a tough night. I read those rules the alpha follows and it fits my husband to a tee and we are teetering on the edge of chaos right now. I want to scream: you're the father of my children! I want to make this work! Help me!
> 
> So if you want to stand up for your right to watch porn whether or not your wife likes it, and flirt with other women to up your sex rank, and treat your wife like she's expendable, then DO NOT GET MARRIED. Whew. Crazy rant over.


From what I understand about the Alpha rules touted here,it is for men whose wives do not prioritize their needs in the marriage and so this dynamic MIGHT turn the tables for them.A complete man is one that has both alpha(leadership,organisation,sexually agggresive) and beta(doing chores,affectionate,great listener) traits,and applies them at the appropriate times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## biola

^ur husband doesn't seem to have found that balance!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WyshIknew

biola said:


> From what I understand about the Alpha rules touted here,it is for men whose wives do not prioritize their needs in the marriage and so this dynamic MIGHT turn the tables for them.A complete man is one that has both alpha(leadership,organisation,sexually agggresive) and beta(doing chores,affectionate,great listener) traits,and applies them at the appropriate times.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know I've posted this before, but I do agree with biola and I think it bears repeating.

Mrs. Wysh calls me her Balpha c0cky cook.

She thinks I am the correct 'blend' of beta and alpha and I do most of the cooking.


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## Halien

To be fair, the context of the alpha discussion you refer to reflects some more extreme discussions that seem to dominate the Men's Club in recent months, while the context seemed very different before. When I first joined the site, I was simply stunned to read about some of the tragic role imbalances that men and women described. But for many men, it seemed that they had so elevated their wife's needs without fair consideration of their own, that they had virtually no voice in the marriage relationship. Many tried to do more favors to win her affection, but little of the change was directed inward, towards growth. While I haven't read the books often cited, and personally disagree with any plan that does not involve honoring each other as life partners, I do think there is a place for discussion on how to grow as men. Sadly, our culture offers little to young men on how to find a balanced path through the deluge of sexuality from the media, comical portrayals of happily married men, and the vacuum of being a strong man in today's society.

It is possible to be both sensitive and have an inner core of leadership as a man, although far too many threads mysteriously imply that the two have to be mutually exclusive. Or at least some made the assumption that this is what is being proposed any time you talk about growing the alpha element of your personality.


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## Gaia

Just because I feel sorry for ya and to make sure you arent the thread killer... 


I do agree that the media and our culture seems waay out of whack with how men and women should be. From what I seen its awesome to be an ass and a tramp or in case of marriage commercials..... The womans a heartless bytch and the mans a doofus who is wrong to inconvienence her with something so little as a cough. 





Yeah... I think im just prattling on but eh....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

AnnieAsh.. did you see my newer thread...








http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-c...thy-praise-honor-minus-alpha-beta-debate.html









I agree with you, all the Alpha praise gets on my nerves...... I get why some men NEED to turn it around on some of their wives though, depending on the situation at home.....if their wives have slowly grown into a entitled cold uncaring woman -ignoring his needs / taking him for granted...allowing her the upper reign....

It's an avenue to get some leverage back in their marriage.. so she'll finally look up & say.... "







what's gotten into you, you don't help me anymore, you don't care"....puts a little *fire* &* chase* on HER end... for him....bringing those questions on....something he couldn't reach her with before...with his "giving" efforts ... This is not your situation at all though....why these write-ups Repulse. They Repulse me also. 

For some Men... even all of that is hard to do, because it goes against everything in them, what they have been taught, so even reading all of this dribble wouldn't turn such a man into an A$$hole... but if a man was already an A-hole, then his advice ....well, you might as well run for the Divorce papers .... Ain't no working with a self conceited monster like that. 

It's mostly Adex's threads that want us to







and







....some unbalanced/ ugly teachings for sure... against anything that remotely sounds like a Good man/ Husband/ Father .


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## Caribbean Man

Gaia said:


> Just because I feel sorry for ya and to make sure you arent the thread killer...
> 
> 
> I do agree that the media and our culture seems waay out of whack with how men and women should be. From what I seen its awesome to be an ass and a tramp or in case of marriage commercials..... *The womans a heartless bytch and the mans a doofus who is wrong to inconvienence her with something so little as a cough. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah... I think im just prattling on but eh....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


^^^^
*Touché* 

Haha!


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## Gaia

That one was one of.... Think it was a mucinex or however its spelled... One of them commercials.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude

SimplyAmorous said:


> It's mostly Adex's threads that want us to
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....some unbalanced/ ugly teachings for sure... against anything that remotely sounds like a Good man/ Husband/ Father .


They are nonetheless a welcome and entertaining addition to this forum for me. Especially stuff like this:



Adex said:


> I haven't been to this site for a week and a half and it's good to see this thread still close to the top. RECOGNIZE THE POWER OF THE ALPHA.:smthumbup:


Heh

@AnnieAsh

This forum is normally quick to advise on those who fall too much on either spectrum of being too nice or too much of an a$$hole anyway. To be honest I wouldn't worry about it


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## Caribbean Man

Halien said:


> When I first joined the site, I was simply stunned to read about some of the tragic role imbalances that men and women described. *But for many men, it seemed that they had so elevated their wife's needs without fair consideration of their own, that they had virtually no voice in the marriage relationship. **Many tried to do more favors to win her affection, but little of the change was directed inward, towards growth. *


^^^^^^
THIS.

What does it cost a woman, or even another man if a man decides to improve himself in a way that he sees fit?
Nothing.[ _Theoretically_ ]

What does it cost a man, or another woman if a woman decided to assert her position in an abusive relationship and improve herself?
Nothing.[_Theoretically_ ]

I have only read a few sections of the books , and most of it does not apply to our marriage because that level of dysfunctionalism does not exist in our marriage. But I would not for one minute think that it does not exist in_ any _marriage , because I have seen it at work in real life.

But maybe the OP is right. 
Maybe its all just masculine amphigory , designed for men who shouldn't be married.
So here's my advice,
Maybe the weak doormats who are inclined to believe such
" _poppyc*ck_ " should just do themselves a favour.
Don't dump the books, just dump the women, after all they do deserve much better in life than you [ weak men ] could ever give.
Work on yourself
And get a _real_ life...............


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## Caribbean Man

RandomDude said:


> @AnnieAsh
> 
> *This forum is normally quick to advise on those who fall too much on either spectrum of being too nice or too much of an a$$hole anyway. To be honest I wouldn't worry about it *


Touché,
_Again_....


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## ATC529R

sheez.....

I never frequented the alpha or 180 threads.....but if thats the advice they are giving I feel sorry for those, and their SO, who take it........


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## Lon

Upping the alpha is really a conversation that shouldn't leave the men's clubhouse. And as someone who has tended to be a doormat most of my life, understanding "alpha" (or what I like to think of as that elusive masculine charm, charisma, or strength of character that generates attraction in the opposite sex) is of critical importance to me being able to make the life I want, in regards to relationships.


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## Gaia

I disagree lon. With the first part that is. I am of the opinion that either gender can discuss what they wish wherever and whenever they wish. Upping the alpha can appky to women just as it does for mn. There are doormats in both genders.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man

Lon said:


> Upping the alpha is really a conversation that shouldn't leave the men's clubhouse. And as someone who has tended to be a doormat most of my life, understanding "alpha" (or what I like to think of as that elusive masculine charm, charisma, or strength of character that generates attraction in the opposite sex) is of critical importance to me being able to make the life I want, in regards to relationships.


.............or even if you should decide to stay single for the rest of you life. 
It is still applicable any way you look at it.
Take what you think is good for you and reject the rest.
Simple , conventional wisdom.


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## Caribbean Man

Gaia said:


> I disagree lon. With the first part that is. I am of the opinion that either gender can discuss what they wish wherever and whenever they wish. *Upping the alpha can appky to women just as it does for mn. There are doormats in both genders*.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: X 100%........and have said so _ad nauseum_ on this site.


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## Deejo

It really does make one wonder what the hell those boys are thinking when you contrast it against all of the threads from men posting here that get laid like tile for being 'Yes men' and jumping into housework with gusto and vigor.

Oh wait ...

Want to have more sex? Men, stop helping with the chores | The Sideshow - Yahoo! News

:FIREdevil:


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## anotherguy

Shall I defend the alpha thing? Me.. perhaps the biggest outspoken critic of it? Annointed 'white knight' and 'beta' according to the apostles of the creed, game, 180, primer, 'laid like tile', MAP and such?

--

The first thing is, I have little doubt that it can work when applied sensibly to a broken and dysfunctional relationship - with sensible people. And it isnt about being an a$$wipe, though it can seem that way when trying to make a point to someone that 'hasnt seen the light'. I have read a fair amount of it just to know what I am talking about and a good amount of ithis is juvenile and jargon-filled nonsense - but there are sensible things in there too such as fostering friendships and improving yourself. This really is for people with severe relationship problems, self esteem issues - and it is not, despite the insistance of its adherents - a recipe to shoot for in a healthy relationship - and my belief is that is should not be advised when there are other significant issues going on. A hallmark, by the way of much of the self help tripe of all stripes - is embedding a kernel of truth in a larger pseudo-intellectual framework of crap - often obscured by made up 'language' to describe it. (See, 'who moved my cheese', 'the secret', 'the rules of the game', 'he THINKS hes not into you', etc etc.. ad nauseum...)

My problem are the dedicated accolytes of these get laid tactics that whip it out at every opportunity - eager to help. 

1st post: "My wife sits on the couch with a spoon and a gallon of ice cream, the house is a mess except when I clean it, and we havent had sex in 6 months."

2nd Post: "Your alpha/beta is out of balance. Go Read MMSL. Formulate a plan and come back and we can talk about when to reveal the MAP to her. Not yet. I hear you brother. Its not hard, you just need to stop being a doormat. I have lived it and this works."

3rd Post: "OK! I looked, and I think you guys are onto something. I am 19 and after the kid came (guess I really SHOULD have worn a condom huh?) she was always, like, complaining, and like 'that hurts' (something about a 3rd degree episiotomy?). Our baby is 7 months old now and all she says is that she it 'tired' I mean normal parents have sex with kids tright? She also complains alot like when I lost my job I had a chance to play alot of online games and all she does now is eat ice cream and get fat. I havent smoked pot in almost 2 months now, mostly because we are broke and we need formula, but last time I tried to have sex she simply said 'no'. I am almost at the end of my rope. I asked her when she was going to go back to work and now she is giving me the silent treatment. I am getting nowhere with her."

4th post: "Stop it with the alpha nonsense, it is pure BS."

5th Post: "Here comes Mr. Beta again. Clearly - the OP needs to ensure his wife understands the consequences of not meeting his needs, and he has to follow through on his promises. Get out of the house, get his life in order. If she asks why simply look her in the eye and state your case and stand firm. If she doesnt hold up her end of the deal - leave. This isnt difficult or complicated. Yeah, they have other issues - but 6 months without sex is NOT normal."

Silly exaggeration right? Not by much. When you see this kind of 'advice' - you just hate to see someone possibly making a bad situation worse - and any attempt to root out the real situation is called out as a waste of time. 

really - I should just stay away.. and left the board a couple months ago for that very reason and took a peek last week. (oops). Its just some stupid internet forum - but unfortunately it is no game when real lives and families are involved. *sigh*. I do think the moderators, who also push this unfortunately - do rarely inject a little balance - though perhaps not frequently enough for my liking.

Again - the people who push it have used it with some success. That means 1) they had a really screwed up relationship maybe still do, and 2) It 'worked' for them whatever that means to them. Those points do not automatically make it an effective prescription for others in all cases, sorry.

God I'm such an insufferable, pontificating, self righeous windbag. I hope my posts dont get as bad as 'Simply Amorous'.  (That was a joke)

Oh... is this the womens room? Gads I went in the wrong restroom too? THIS is shaping up to be a disaster.


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## Bottled Up

AnnieAsh said:


> I'm all for a person (man or woman) standing up for themselves, being honest and forthright, demanding to be their partner's priority sexually and emotionally. But this alpha stuff is absolutely KILLING me!
> 
> I'm not unique or especially smart. I am sure I fall right in the middle of the ever present and all knowing "bell curve." The idea of my husband ignoring me, going out at night without talking to me, stopping what little he actually does around the house, that's supposed to make me want him more? It makes me HATE him. It makes me want to RUN.
> 
> The times when I am most attracted to him is when he is looking at me like I'm the only person in the world. When he cares how I think and feel. When I'm his priority. It makes me so sad to see these men reading nonsense about the 2/3 rule and other tripe. You know what, he already has given me 2/3 of what I've given to him and I am about this close to smacking him right now! lol
> 
> Ugh...I'm rambling and venting and having a tough night. I read those rules the alpha follows and it fits my husband to a tee and we are teetering on the edge of chaos right now. I want to scream: you're the father of my children! I want to make this work! Help me!
> 
> So if you want to stand up for your right to watch porn whether or not your wife likes it, and flirt with other women to up your sex rank, and treat your wife like she's expendable, then DO NOT GET MARRIED. Whew. Crazy rant over.


The Alpha / Beta stuff is real IMO... I've experienced it myself in my relationship. Problem is, it gets blown out of proportion or misconstrued sometimes when being recommended as a solution, and often also gets misunderstood in it's interpretation as a result (like here, with you). 

Thing is, alpha and beta traits are biologically proven, indisputable aspects of primal nature... and we as humans are not above having primal needs simply because we are also intellectuals. We too are very much an evolutionary bi-product of nature's environments. But the name of the game with "alpha and beta" is all about *BALANCING* the two traits. And the proper mix of "balance" is also unique to everyone's individual relationship situation, because we all are individualistic in our needs. So what YOU need as an individual is different than what another woman might need for example, and figuring out that perfect blend for YOUR needs is your husband's job, and he's responsible for bringing that blend to the table.

See, you're only focusing on one aspect of it, the "alpha" and in the process overlooking the uniqueness of your own, individual situation. Because it sounds to me that in YOUR case, your husband seems to be lacking in beta aspects of providing you relationship comforts and security. For example, maybe you as an individual only require like 30% alpha and 70% beta in a guy to be truly happy with him, and your husband is like 70% alpha and 30% beta... that would be creating the problem for you in your situation.

So you need to really think about your own situation rather than hopping on the "alpha-bashing" bandwagon, because denying that you need any alpha in your life is simply ignorant and blind to the facts. You just need a different balance of it all than what's currently being presented to you.

Good luck.


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## Acorn

AnnieAsh said:


> The times when I am most attracted to him is when he is looking at me like I'm the only person in the world. When he cares how I think and feel. When I'm his priority.


I always thought the whole "up the alpha" strategy was meant to be applicable when a wife is not attracted to to the guy, when she doesn't care how he thinks and feels, and he's not the priority.

In other words, to destabilize a relationship where the wife is taking the husband for granted.

I did not think it was meant for every situation? Why would you want to destabilize a mutually happy relationship?


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## anotherguy

Deejo said:


> It really does make one wonder what the hell those boys are thinking when you contrast it against all of the threads from men posting here that get laid like tile for being 'Yes men' and jumping into housework with gusto and vigor.
> 
> Oh wait ...
> 
> Want to have more sex? Men, stop helping with the chores | The Sideshow - Yahoo! News
> 
> :FIREdevil:


:lol: As usual, the headline is totally at odds with what the study says. 'stop helping with the chores' is not at all the same as 'assuming traditional gender roles.'  The study, in fact highlights balanced relationships. 

see original: http://www.asanet.org/journals/ASR/Feb13ASRFeature.pdf


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## naga75

i think the whole alpha/beta stuff is misunderstood and misused, mainly.
so, i have always been a pretty natural leader and very independent.
i would do what i wanted, go where i wanted, and say what i wanted. if you didnt like it, oh well, thats just me.
so, women like outspoken leaders, right? a man that "takes charge", right?
not so much. not when my wife is telling me, "hey you need to be considerate to my opinion and feelings", and im like, "i hear you but i am the man of the house head honcho big tiger and i will do whatever the fk i want".
that is the way a lot of the people on this site (and in general) portray "alpha".
inconsiderate. but i dont think it is. and i have finally matured enough to understand that.
what my wife wants is a leader of the FAMILY. not a guy who does whatever he wants, whenever he wants, regardless of what anyone else thinks. thats not alpha, thats just A$$HOLE.
so now, i dont do whatever i want, whenever i want. that mentality drove my wife away from me for years and laid the stage for her two year long affair. what i do is lead our family, and make decisions that are in OUR best interest. and my wife acknowledges and yes APPRECIATES it. thats what alpha is. to me.
and i aint afraid to scrub a dish or change a stinky diaper.


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## Lon

even single men, who choose to be or not, have relationships with other people at all times. I don't know if it's useful or practical for women, nor does it matter to me, because I'm not a woman, but if you are a woman who thinks its useful info and you peruse the men's section don't complain about it being mysoginistic or that it's about treating others like crap.

Then again, I just noticed this is the ladies section, so I'll just shut it


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## Mavash.

AnnieAsh said:


> The idea of my husband ignoring me, going out at night without talking to me, stopping what little he actually does around the house, that's supposed to make me want him more? It makes me HATE him. It makes me want to RUN.


You're missing the point of what it means to become more alpha. Most of these men have wives who ignore them, go on GNO, give their phones more attention than them, and do very little in terms of housework.

Being alpha gives these wives a dose of their own medicine. It destabilizes the relationship to wake up these wives who are taking their husbands for granted.

If you're a good wife already then yes it isn't fair and it would make you hate him. There is no reason for a man to become more alpha if his basic needs are being met.


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## Deejo

anotherguy said:


> The study, in fact highlights balanced relationships.
> 
> see original: http://www.asanet.org/journals/ASR/Feb13ASRFeature.pdf


As do I. 

People hear from theses messages or themes what they wish. I don't care about what they 'hear'. I care about what they do and what results they get.

Men want their wives to love, respect, and desire them.
In order to make that happen they likely need to make changes to their own behavior, conduct, and self perception.

People fixate on the words and phrases from a polarizing, and inflammatory few. Not much I can do about that.

Most of the crap that people ascribe to the whole 'alpha' arena isn't even intended for married men. It's balls and brass language intended for young men who haven't a clue how to date. They are called 'AFC's' Average Frustrated Chumps. Not a phrase that gets used, nor should it, around here at all. It's the very reason Mr. Kay wrote MMSL Primer in the first place.

And as Acorn said, for any men already in a happy, fulfilling, 'balanced' relationship, the message isn't intended for them. If it ain't broke, it don't need fixin'.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Personally, I think following Alpha rules has the effect of making men reliable, stable, accountable and present in their relationships. You could call it any other thing, but honestly, being Alpha sounds a lot better than being reliable, stable, accountable and present in their relationships ;-)

A woman could do with being Alpha as well. The main thing is that it reduces static in a relationship by strengthening characteristics related to being connected physically and emotionally, while increasing sense of self. When it comes to women, the term of course cannot be Alpha, it's usually equated with being a team player, or being a feminist, or just 'not being psycho,' or having the whole package.

Call it what you will. It is what it is.


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## COguy

I will be the poster boy for "alpha" talk. As has been mentioned, the messages get distorted and people get fixated on phrases outside of original intent.

I think the crux of books like "No more mr. Nice guy" and "married men sex primer" are that, you must find a balance between Alpha and Beta characteristics. 

100% alpha looks like this: arrogant a$$hole, only cares about his needs, demanding, aggressive
100% beta looks like this: pushover, doormat, only cares about pleasing others, lacks conviction

Neither makes for a good relationship. If you look at the average profile of the guy on this message board though, he is a super-beta doormat. Typically a pure Alpha male isn't going to be on a relationship forum asking how he can be a better mate. So for the majority on this board, who bent over backwards for their spouses and essentially got sh*t on, we needed to have a lifestyle change.

For me it meant, standing up for myself, not doing things to get something in return, not spending my time and energy doing things for her when I was getting a fraction of that in return, prioritizing my needs first instead of hers, spending time for myself, gaining confidence, setting boundaries, and importantly, sticking to them.

I've applied these principles to my dating life and I think it's made me much more attractive and a much better long-term prospect. Why? Because I'm a healthier individual for it.

You're problem seems to be different however. It seems that your husband is more on the alpha side, and so instead of focusing on the things I focused on, he should be looking to do the opposite. eg, making more time for you, doing more around the house, being more understanding in confrontations, making sure that he puts you first at times, etc.


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## anotherguy

Deejo said:


> People hear from theses messages or themes what they wish.


Agree, but they also hear what they are told, like "(study says)stop helping with the chores (to have more sex)" when that is, in fact, not even close to what it says. 

People do tend to believe what they want and we all have confirmation bias.. but that does not absolve us from being dilligent about our biases and conservitive about applying advice to others lives and speaking first and thinking later.

We also dont need to be grim and humorless. This is supposed to be fun. :smthumbup:


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## AnnieAsh

If a man marries a woman who goes out and grinds on random dudes in bars, then he needs a whole lot more help than computing who says I love you the most. 

If a man is left to do all the housework while his wife plays on Facebook, then he needs more help than the "golden ration." 

If a man has been sexless for YEARS, then he needs more help than some poorly written e-manual. 

I can jump on whatever bandwagon I'd like. I do not want a leader, I want a husband and a partner. I want to be in love with my husband. Game playing does not create love in a marriage. Sheesh.


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## Bottled Up

AnnieAsh said:


> I can jump on whatever bandwagon I'd like. I do not want a leader, I want a husband and a partner. I want to be in love with my husband. Game playing does not create love in a marriage. Sheesh.


Again, you're misconstruing the ideology, which shows how little about it that you actually know. The teachings of MMSL, albeit using terminology like "gaming your wife", is not _actually_ about treating your wife like a game or a toy. But you clearly make no attempts to truly draw that distinction, but rather, seem comfortable seeking shelter under your own skewed interpretation of what you _think_ it is. And that's fine, stay delusional if you want... but the fact is that MMSL's core fundamentals are all about saving marriages, by teaching men to be the best husbands they can be.

And if you're happy with your husband as he is, then that's fantastic... he's already doing it right. But for the other unhappy relationships, there's MMSL.


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## Caribbean Man

AnnieAsh said:


> If a man marries a woman who goes out and grinds on random dudes in bars, then he needs a whole lot more help than computing who says I love you the most.
> 
> If a man is left to do all the housework while his wife plays on Facebook, then he needs more help than the "golden ration."
> 
> If a man has been sexless for YEARS, then he needs more help than some poorly written e-manual.
> 
> I can jump on whatever bandwagon I'd like. I do not want a leader, I want a husband and a partner. I want to be in love with my husband. Game playing does not create love in a marriage. Sheesh.


Its not about game playing or creating love.
It's about a man faced with such a situation in his relationships,taking the necessary steps to fix himself, regardless of what his wife or anybody else thinks.
In doing this, he is dealing with his internal faults that crippled his manhood and enabled his spouse to disrespect him.


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## Coffee Amore

Jaquen's post from a few weeks ago captures what I think about this phenomenon.



jaquen said:


> "Alpha men", as they're described in the various books, wouldn't likely be on TAM, spending countless hours trying to hock the alpha male perspective. They'd be too busy enjoying the fruits of their alphaness.
> 
> Books like MMSL primer and NMMNG are, by their very nature, targeted toward mostly weak, spineless, doormat men who need some guidance, and hand holding, toward embracing basic concepts like self respect, self care, and common sense. They tell you something that should, if your brain is working correctly, come naturally; if you don't let a woman steam roll over you, she is going to have more respect for you; if you actually get off your fat ass and chisel out a decent body, your wife will likely find you more attractive. Yes, major revelations indeed. Obvious party of one, your table is ready.
> 
> The alpha debates continue because they're fueled primarily by weak men who need to believe that they can become strong men. These men are in a constant battle to not feel inferior, weak, rolled over. They're not truly "alpha" anything, just on a constant quest to not be beta/sigma. They are terrified men mostly, men who were screwed over, allowed themselves to be screwed over, and are so petrified that something inside of them will always lead them down a road to being screwed over again. They have to cling hold, for dear life, to the principles espoused in these books, lest they drift back toward Doormatville. These are the men who need to believe strongly in "us vs them" mentality. They need to romanticize the college frat boy, or the high school football quarterback, the men they assumed were the prize, the men they wanted desperately to be. The weak man will spend more time thinking about how much ass the frat boy got 20 years ago, because he just can not get over his feeling of inadequacy. He has to believe, deep down, that there is a "frat boy" inside, a way to unlock his "true" self, and then maybe, just maybe, women will want him, like they did Mr. Jock, or Mr. Financier, or Mr. Quarterback. Everyone wants to be the star of the team, and this whole "alpha male" culture promises that you, too, can be the star.
> 
> It's alluring, and seductive, and creates following of men who will fight tooth, and nail, to hold on to these simplified, limited views. We all need something to believe in, and they need this.
> 
> Few want to hear the real truth.
> 
> That no, you aren't Mr. Quarterback, and you never will be.
> 
> Yes, "alpha men" do get cheated on.
> 
> The reason the jocks got "laid like tile" is because they looked better than you, and played a sport that many, male and female, young and old, romanticize.
> 
> "Hot" guys get laid more, because they're hot. This includes "hot" accountants who do dishes. "Hot" dudes who don't drink. "Hot" engineers who don't know jack about football. "Hot" actors who are in touch with their sensitive sides. "Hot" nerds who love to play WOW. "Hot" shy loners who still have trouble communicating. "Hot", genuinely nice guys. You'd be surprised how much of this alpha/beta/sigmaphigamma theory goes flying out the window when a guy is "hot".
> 
> No, your wife didn't cheat on you with a 6' 1'' alcoholic. She just as likely cheated on you with regular Joe from the office, who treated her like a desirable human being, didn't take her for granted, made her feel young again, and looked good in a pair of Dockers.
> 
> The best you can do is look in the mirror, and get real. Do you look like sh*t? Correct that. Are you actually being true to yourself? Nope, than fix that. Nothing will ever improve you better than actually discovering what makes you tick, and owning that. It helps create a confidence in you that will be very difficult to break. It helps you feel more comfortable in your own skin, to own exactly who you are, unashamed. It's amazing how tough it is to be a doormat when you're living your authentic self.
> 
> Stop obsessing about the jocks of your youth, the frat guys of your salad days, or the wall street broker of your dreams. You're spending more time thinking about them than they ever thought about you, or that the women they phuck ever even thought about them. You are obsessed with the "alpha" men. You are obsessed with discovering their "secret". Your whole life is becoming a race to be like some young, handsome man you once recalled having no problem landing women.
> 
> Trouble is, you're not him. And guess what? It's been 20 damn years. He's not him anymore either.


----------



## Bottled Up

Coffee Amore said:


> Jaquen's post from a few weeks ago captures what I think about this phenomenon.


Oh yes Coffee Amore, Jaquen is so credible...

_*"Alpha men", as they're described in the various books, wouldn't likely be on TAM, spending countless hours trying to hock the alpha male perspective. They'd be too busy enjoying the fruits of their alphaness.*_

Yet Jaquen himself is here on TAM, posting away routinely... So I wonder where this puts Jaquen within the confines of his own opinion?

_*Books like MMSL primer and NMMNG are, by their very nature, targeted toward mostly weak, spineless, doormat men who need some guidance, and hand holding, toward embracing basic concepts like self respect, self care, and common sense. They tell you something that should, if your brain is working correctly, come naturally; if you don't let a woman steam roll over you, she is going to have more respect for you; if you actually get off your fat ass and chisel out a decent body, your wife will likely find you more attractive. Yes, major revelations indeed. Obvious party of one, your table is ready.*_

Ironic how Jaquen states these things should just come naturally to anyone with a "brain that is working properly", yet everything we as individuals learn in life is subject to conditions and influences of how we're raised, our surrounding environments, and even the toll that media and marketing takes on shaping our minds and culture. 

Perhaps Jaquen has been blessed with a God-given gift of perfection, but for the rest of us "weak, spineless, doormat men" who were not so blessed with that heavenly gift, there's the self-help books and forums like TAM.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Bottled Up said:


> Again, you're misconstruing the ideology, which shows how little about it that you actually know. The teachings of MMSL, albeit using terminology like "gaming your wife", is not _actually_ about treating your wife like a game or a toy. But you clearly make no attempts to truly draw that distinction, but rather, seem comfortable seeking shelter under your own skewed interpretation of what you _think_ it is. And that's fine, stay delusional if you want... but the fact is that MMSL's core fundamentals are all about saving marriages, by teaching men to be the best husbands they can be.
> 
> And if you're happy with your husband as he is, then that's fantastic... he's already doing it right. But for the other unhappy relationships, there's MMSL.


Uh the point was that I am UNHAPPY in the relationship. That he either consciously or unconsciously embodies the ideals touted as Being The Man and as a result, I am UNHAPPY IN MY MARRIAGE. The advice give in the so-called primer? My jaw dropped when I read it because J just naturally does some of the stuff. And the overwhelming sexygoodtime vajayjay tingles I used to get for him? I'm finding it harder and harder to get them for him. They are still there! But not from anything HE does. In face, I'd say IN SPITE of what he does, they still exist. 

So what do you tell the woman whose marriage sucks because of those things which you worship as the manly arts? Or excuse me...gaming your wife, but you know not REALLY gaming your wife. 

Alas I am so delusional. I'll just get back in the kitchen and make a pie like a good little woman.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Thanks for reposting Jaquen's words, Amore. It made a lot of sense to me. And I'm totally calm now! lol


----------



## joe kidd




----------



## Tall Average Guy

AnnieAsh said:


> If a man marries a woman who goes out and grinds on random dudes in bars, then he needs a whole lot more help than computing who says I love you the most.
> 
> If a man is left to do all the housework while his wife plays on Facebook, then he needs more help than the "golden ration."
> 
> If a man has been sexless for YEARS, then he needs more help than some poorly written e-manual.
> 
> I can jump on whatever bandwagon I'd like. I do not want a leader, I want a husband and a partner. I want to be in love with my husband. Game playing does not create love in a marriage. Sheesh.


If this is what you think MMSL is all about, you need to read up more on it.


----------



## Mavash.

AnnieAsh said:


> Uh the point was that I am UNHAPPY in the relationship. That he either consciously or unconsciously embodies the ideals touted as Being The Man and as a result, I am UNHAPPY IN MY MARRIAGE.


This to me is like going to the dentist because your car is broken. Sounds like your husband sought the wrong tool for the problem. Not all women respond to alpha (I don't) and yes we have had marriage problems. 

I see your point I'm just saying it's not the tools fault the user picked the wrong one.


----------



## Bottled Up

AnnieAsh said:


> Uh the point was that I am UNHAPPY in the relationship. That he either consciously or unconsciously embodies the ideals touted as Being The Man and as a result, I am UNHAPPY IN MY MARRIAGE.


I know you're unhappy – when I said _"And if you're happy with your husband as he is, then that's fantastic... he's already doing it right. But for the other unhappy relationships, there's MMSL."_ I was talking about a hypothetical situation, as in any woman out there, not actually "you" as in AnnieAsh per se. But I see how that is confusing now that I re-read it, so sorry for misleading you on my point.

What I was saying to YOU (as in the AnnieAsh) earlier in this thread, is that in your case alpha is the problem, not the answer. Too much alpha, not enough beta. All of which is still relevant to the MMSL discussion.

MMSL is not just about alpha, it's just what most people harp on from it. Because it IS usually the area a man needs to focus on to improve his sexual relationship with his wife.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Tall Average Guy said:


> If this is what you think MMSL is all about, you need to read up more on it.


I can't! I have to go make a pie!


----------



## Holland

Lon said:


> Upping the alpha is really a conversation that shouldn't leave the men's clubhouse. And as someone who has tended to be a doormat most of my life, understanding "alpha" (or what I like to think of as that elusive masculine charm, charisma, or strength of character that generates attraction in the opposite sex) is of critical importance to me being able to make the life I want, in regards to relationships.


The problem with this is that all this alpha stuff is spouted by men that are not doing so well. If men were not so scared of women and actually listened to what they want then they (the men) might get somewhere.

Listening to the rantings of unbalanced men telling you what women want v's listening to women about what they want, no brainer.

Lon I hope you do get all you want, you always come across as a good guy. Oh and I get the needed to talk to same the same gender about issues but it is the quality of those that you talk to which is important.


----------



## Bottled Up

AnnieAsh said:


> I can't! I have to go make a pie!


Ok, you're obviously not even trying to understand at this point. Mock it all you want, but don't go creating a thread topic asking a question if you're not even capable of handling the answers.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Bottled Up said:


> Ok, you're obviously not even trying to understand at this point. Mock it all you want, but don't go creating a thread topic asking a question if you're not even capable of handling the answers.


I have researched it, like I've researched numerous other self help guides and programs. You have explained it to me (much appreciated), but after your explanation I still don't agree that it is the best material to foster love and respect within a marriage. Is that a bad thing?


----------



## naga75

I think the majority of what jaquen wrote was correct. 
Certainly about finding your confidence (if youve lost it, which those of us with cheating wives almost certainly have).
Although, i can see myself in some of what he wrote, at least at this fkd up point in my life, i must say...
Im about as far from a "spineless weakling" as one can get. An i got the scars to prove it lol. 
I was a doormat. Because i thought i was being a "good husband" by showing my love and devotion to my wife in the way i thought "good husbands" did. 
She took full on advantage of it. 
MMSL taught me how to stop this from happening. It didnt teach me how to be a "real man". I had a pretty good grasp on that. If you dont beleive me, come on out to my property this weekend and help me build fence or wrestle a wild calf that needs to be doctored.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bottled Up

AnnieAsh said:


> I still don't agree that it is the best material to foster love and respect within a marriage. Is that a bad thing?


Not a "bad" opinion at all, because I also don't believe MMSL to be the-all and end-all of relationship guidance. I actually like to promote a blend of 3 books as a total consideration for relationship awareness, in _"His Needs, Her Needs"_, _"The 5 Love Languages"_, and _"MMSL_".

Not one of these books alone is the absolute answer, but all 3 of them have a real place for practice within every relationship IMO. But MMSL very much has it's role of importance I believe.


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## Zatol Ugot?

annieash said:


> i can't! I have to go make a pie!



View attachment 2301


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## Lon

Holland said:


> The problem with this is that all this alpha stuff is spouted by men that are not doing so well. If men were not so scared of women and actually listened to what they want then they (the men) might get somewhere.
> 
> Listening to the rantings of unbalanced men telling you what women want v's listening to women about what they want, no brainer.
> 
> Lon I hope you do get all you want, you always come across as a good guy. Oh and I get the needed to talk to same the same gender about issues but it is the quality of those that you talk to which is important.


nope, listening to women will get me half way where I will end up, observing successful men will get me the rest of the way.

I am a good guy, and behind the keyboard I feel like my personality shines through. I am comfortable with myself here, I feel I treat others appropriately and I understand the consequences of what I post and how others react. But in the real world I struggle with those issues I listed because my niceguy passive doormat traits interfere, and that is what I'm working on in myself to change. I am still a good guy IRL too but I need help from other good guys that have been stuck behind the same obstacle to get past it - and believe me my source of inspiration is not the other niceguys stuck in their niceguy ways on TAM, my inspiration comes from the ones who have chosen to break out of that and who have shared their success stories along the way. I also look to other recovered nice guys who are a little farther along, but when I look too far along I am not ready to accept all I see. And a part of that process, to me, is being able to pay it forward by sharing my own success stories.

The rhetoric you see from the men on TAM here is just a part of the process of self change that we've chosen to use. It may look ridiculous to you, but to me it is an important part of the things in life I've always rejected which I now have to revisit in order to understand and integrate.


----------



## Bottled Up

Lon said:


> nope, listening to women will get me half way where I will end up, observing successful men will get me the rest of the way.
> 
> I am a good guy, and behind the keyboard I feel like my personality shines through. I am comfortable with myself here, I feel I treat others appropriately and I understand the consequences of what I post and how others react. But in the real world I struggle with those issues I listed because my niceguy passive doormat traits interfere, and that is what I'm working on in myself to change. I am still a good guy IRL too but I need help from other good guys that have been stuck behind the same obstacle to get past it - and believe me my source of inspiration is not the other niceguys stuck in their niceguy ways on TAM, my inspiration comes from the ones who have chosen to break out of that and who have shared their success stories along the way. I also look to other recovered nice guys who are a little farther along, but when I look too far along I am not ready to accept all I see. And a part of that process, to me, is being able to pay it forward by sharing my own success stories.
> 
> The rhetoric you see from the men on TAM here is just a part of the process of self change that we've chosen to use. It may look ridiculous to you, but to me it is an important part of the things in life I've always rejected which I now have to revisit in order to understand and integrate.


Poetic Lon. <applause>


----------



## Holland

Lon said:


> *nope, listening to women will get me half way where I will end up, observing successful men will get me the rest of the way.*
> 
> I am a good guy, and behind the keyboard I feel like my personality shines through. I am comfortable with myself here, I feel I treat others appropriately and I understand the consequences of what I post and how others react. But in the real world I struggle with those issues I listed because my niceguy passive doormat traits interfere, and that is what I'm working on in myself to change. I am still a good guy IRL too but I need help from other good guys that have been stuck behind the same obstacle to get past it - and believe me my source of inspiration is not the other niceguys stuck in their niceguy ways on TAM, my inspiration comes from the ones who have chosen to break out of that and who have shared their success stories along the way. I also look to other recovered nice guys who are a little farther along, but when I look too far along I am not ready to accept all I see. And a part of that process, to me, is being able to pay it forward by sharing my own success stories.
> 
> The rhetoric you see from the men on TAM here is just a part of the process of self change that we've chosen to use. It may look ridiculous to you, but to me it is an important part of the things in life I've always rejected which I now have to revisit in order to understand and integrate.


Yes I agree however what I said was that it is the quality of the men having the discussion that is important. Discussing women and how to have a good relationship with them, with men of poor character or that are bitter and jaded, is not going to be a winning formula.


----------



## Deejo

Lon said:


> The rhetoric you see from the men on TAM here is just a part of the process of self change that we've chosen to use. It may look ridiculous to you, but to me it is an important part of the things in life I've always rejected which I now have to revisit in order to understand and integrate.


Although it doesn't bother me a bit, I would like to see a stop to the shaming of men that most definitely do NOT fall into the category of 'some men' to whom the OP is referring, but do want to better themselves whether it is to improve their marriage, or let go of a very bad one.

My advice to the OP would be the same as I give to guys that come here with overbearing, disrespectful, and unloving wives.

Don't encourage it. Don't tolerate it.


----------



## Lon

Holland said:


> Yes I agree however what I said was that it is the quality of the men having the discussion that is important. Discussing women and how to have a good relationship with them, with men of poor character or that are bitter and jaded, is not going to be a winning formula.


I guess we just have different TAM members in mind, the ones I follow are not of poor character, they may occasionally be bitter or sound jaded, but they are becoming more aware of when they do and do something about it.


----------



## anotherguy

Bottled Up said:


> Again, you're misconstruing the ideology, which shows how little about it that you actually know. The teachings of MMSL, albeit using terminology like "gaming your wife", is not _actually_ about treating your wife like a game or a toy...


Not so fast. 

This in fact - is one of my problems with all of this. 

Language matters.. it matters quite a lot in fact. It shapes how people think.

Again - the nonsensical made up jargon hides this to a small degree, but when someone says 'laid like tile'... then sorry... no... it is not the same as stating that what you _really_ are after is a loving balanced relationship. It is not so simply written off as hyperbole or analogy or allusion. 'Its important to have your sex rank higher than hers' and 'gaming your wife' and 'im at phase 3, going for 4' have consequences if you are led to think that in those reprehensible terms. I dare anyone to deny it.

but enough. Its all so exhausting! 

Think I'll go home and jump the wife. See if I actually 'got game'.  Thank goodness its not a competition.


----------



## Hope1964

Just like anything, people can take what they want from MMSL and leave the rest. It's going to resonate with some people more than others, just like any self help book *shrug*


----------



## Bottled Up

anotherguy said:


> Not so fast.
> 
> This in fact - is one of my problems with all of this.
> 
> Language matters.. it matters quite a lot in fact. It shapes how people think.
> 
> Again - the nonsensical made up jargon hides this to a small degree, but when someone says 'laid like tile'... then sorry... no... it is not the same as stating that what you _really_ are after is a loving balanced relationship. It is not so simply written off as hyperbole or analogy or allusion. 'Its important to have your sex rank higher than hers' and 'gaming your wife' and 'im at phase 3, going for 4' have consequences if you are led to think that in those reprehensible terms. I dare anyone to deny it.


I'm not denying I want to get laid like tile, but I'm not objectifying my wife in the whole process of it either. Women like to get "laid" just as much as men do, so why does that "jargon" have to be taboo??? Sex is a healthy aspect of any LOVING balanced relationship.

The whole "sex rank" thing makes perfect sense too. It's just a way of simplifying things to understand how primal nature works. Brad Pitt doesn't date the Honey Boo Boo's mother type... know what I'm saying? It's reality, and I don't see how anyone can deny THAT!

Yes, exhausting indeed - such is forum life


----------



## Red Sonja

Holland said:


> Listening to the rantings of unbalanced men telling you what women want v's listening to women about what they want, no brainer.


Quoted For Truth.

My personal caveat … if when asked, your woman (or man) refuses to tell you what s/he needs/wants then *they are gaming you*. Mature adults do not “game” other adults.

P.S. The answer "I don't know" (what I need/want) is also a game ... a guessing game.


----------



## Runs like Dog

I have nothing to prove or demonstrate to anyone. I'm older than you, I'm tougher than you. Age and ruthlessness always beats youth and enthusiasm. Everyone thinks they are the hardest hard like they just thought it up; I've buried people who's selflessness, compassion and humility would shame you.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Lon said:


> I guess we just have different TAM members in mind, the ones I follow are not of poor character, they may occasionally be bitter or sound jaded, but they are becoming more aware of when they do and do something about it.


Lon,
_You really do have a lot of patience!_


----------



## FalconKing

Sigh...

Let's suppose that I was married to a woman who was very demanding and independent. To an extreme fault. Let's say she got a hold of some reading material that made her feel empowered and righteous in her behavior. Do you know what? I wouldn't be angry with the material. I would feel foolish, personally. I would be angry with her. Because I would know that the things in that material would be very helpful to a woman who was being mistreated by her husband. My wife found it and used it as a way to justify mistreating me. She's the one I would be upset with. Not some female author I never met who obviously wanted to help women in dysfunctional marriages. If you are christian do you hate the bible anytime someone uses scriptures to justify them doing really horrible and selfish things? You can't blame tools for how people use them. But it's up to you. Your crusade against this will have little effect on your marriage. And a manipulative person will just find another tool.

Let me make a thread about how stupid I think something is that a lot of women have used to turn around their dysfunctional marriages. I wonder how I would look.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Runs like Dog said:


> I have nothing to prove or demonstrate to anyone. I'm older than you, I'm tougher than you. Age and ruthlessness always beats youth and enthusiasm. Everyone thinks they are the hardest hard like they just thought it up; I've buried people who's selflessness, compassion and humility would shame you.


Is this directed at ME? :scratchhead:


----------



## Caribbean Man

FalconKing said:


> Sigh...
> 
> Let's suppose that I was married to a woman who was very demanding and independent. To an extreme fault. Let's say she got a hold of some reading material that made her feel empowered and righteous in here behavior. Do you know what? I wouldn't be angry with the material. I would feel foolish, personally. I would be angry with her. Because I would know that the things in that material would be very helpful to a woman who was being mistreated by her husband. My wife found it and used it as a way to justify mistreating me. She's the one I would be upset with. Not some female author I never met who obviously wanted to help women in dysfunctional marriages. If you are christian do you hate the bible anytime someone uses scriptures to justify them doing really horrible and selfish things? You can't blame tools for how people use them. But it's up to you. Your crusade against this will have little effect on your marriage. And a manipulative person will just find another tool.
> 
> *Let me make a thread about how stupid I think something is that a lot of women have used to turn around their dysfunctional marriages. I wonder how I would look.*


:iagree:
, 
Misogynist? 
Woman Hater?
Not a man of good character?
* Sigh *,
"..._*I'll do it for a dollar*_..."


----------



## AnnieAsh

FalconKing said:


> Sigh...
> 
> Let's suppose that I was married to a woman who was very demanding and independent. To an extreme fault. Let's say she got a hold of some reading material that made her feel empowered and righteous in here behavior. Do you know what? I wouldn't be angry with the material. I would feel foolish, personally. I would be angry with her. Because I would know that the things in that material would be very helpful to a woman who was being mistreated by her husband. My wife found it and used it as a way to justify mistreating me. She's the one I would be upset with. Not some female author I never met who obviously wanted to help women in dysfunctional marriages. If you are christian do you hate the bible anytime someone uses scriptures to justify them doing really horrible and selfish things? You can't blame tools for how people use them. But it's up to you. Your crusade against this will have little effect on your marriage. And a manipulative person will just find another tool.
> 
> Let me make a thread about how stupid I think something is that a lot of women have used to turn around their dysfunctional marriages. I wonder how I would look.


If a bunch of women posted and gabbed about a book that told women to make sure you're hotter than your husband. Make sure men hit on you in front of him. Make sure he knows he's easily replaceable. Go out without him and don't tell him where you are going (say what!?) Don't do things for him. Make sure he comes to you FIRST for affection/confirmation/sex, I'd say the SAME THING. Are you KIDDING me? How is that going to make your husband love and respect you? How is that going to encourage a strong and balanced healthy relationship? 

If this stuff is what you believe(and I am encompassing all of the material suggested to males on this forum), then more power to you. What difference does it make if I agree or not? But to lil Annie, it is repugnant and juvenile. TO ME. 

And what crusade? I made one post on what I thought was a forum not as trafficked as others. I woke up to 3 pages! Seems like others are making it THEIR crusade that I agree with ideas preached. I don't. I can't.


----------



## FalconKing

AnnieAsh said:


> If a bunch of women posted and gabbed about a book that told women to make sure you're hotter than your husband. Make sure men hit on you in front of him. Make sure he knows he's easily replaceable. Go out without him and don't tell him where you are going (say what!?) Don't do things for him. Make sure he comes to you FIRST for affection/confirmation/sex, I'd say the SAME THING. Are you KIDDING me? How is that going to make your husband love and respect you? How is that going to encourage a strong and balanced healthy relationship?
> 
> If this stuff is what you believe(and I am encompassing all of the material suggested to males on this forum), then more power to you. What difference does it make if I agree or not? But to lil Annie, it is repugnant and juvenile. TO ME.
> 
> And what crusade? I made one post on what I thought was a forum not as trafficked as others. I woke up to 3 pages! Seems like others are making it THEIR crusade that I agree with ideas preached. I don't. I can't.


I guess you missed the whole bit about being in a dysfunctional marriage.


----------



## Caribbean Man

AnnieAsh said:


> If a bunch of women posted and gabbed about a book that told women to make sure you're hotter than your husband. Make sure men hit on you in front of him. Make sure he knows he's easily replaceable. Go out without him and don't tell him where you are going (say what!?) Don't do things for him. Make sure he comes to you FIRST for affection/confirmation/sex, I'd say the SAME THING. Are you KIDDING me? How is that going to make your husband love and respect you? How is that going to encourage a strong and balanced healthy relationship?


Well Annie,
The truth is that even when women come here on TAM with dysfunctional relationships...
There are a bunch of us here who hit them with the * 2 x 4 * and tell them to do the exact ,same thing.

In fact,
You can just go back one page to page 4 , Post # 54 by the moderator Dejoo,

"....._*My advice to the OP would be the same as I give to guys that come here with overbearing, disrespectful, and unloving wives.*_

*Don't encourage it. Don't tolerate it*...."

You will get the TRUTH.

Of course ,
That is if you are _still_ interested in it.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: What is it with some of the men here?*



AnnieAsh said:


> If a bunch of women posted and gabbed about a book that told women to make sure you're hotter than your husband. Make sure men hit on you in front of him. Make sure he knows he's easily replaceable. Go out without him and don't tell him where you are going (say what!?) Don't do things for him. Make sure he comes to you FIRST for affection/confirmation/sex, I'd say the SAME THING. Are you KIDDING me? How is that going to make your husband love and respect you? How is that going to encourage a strong and balanced healthy relationship?
> 
> If this stuff is what you believe(and I am encompassing all of the material suggested to males on this forum), then more power to you. What difference does it make if I agree or not? But to lil Annie, it is repugnant and juvenile. TO ME.
> 
> And what crusade? I made one post on what I thought was a forum not as trafficked as others. I woke up to 3 pages! Seems like others are making it THEIR crusade that I agree with ideas preached. I don't. I can't.


when you put it that way it actually just opened my eyes for a moment, most of those things sounds like a woman with a lot of self respect who expects to be treated the way she knows she deserves to be treated and holds her partner to high standards. I think I would be able to trust a woman like that who is clear and strong, and honestly I think at some level that is deeply what I've been craving in a partner the whole time.

Now in a long term commitment I wouldn't expect her to hold my replaceability over me as a weapon, but if she thinks I'm not good enough it would be better for us both for her to get out sooner rather than later. And as for men being the ones to initiate first, isn't that how it goes already? As long as if I have to beg isn't that better than the w begging but being turned down? As long as when the first to initiate is responded to, I see no problems with being the cool one (especially where being the hot one was not working for either)

Anyways, I just wanted to reply because what you described actually appealed to me a lot, so I think the point may have backfired...


----------



## Caribbean Man

FrenchFry said:


> There are so many texts and e-books and blogs right now that all are getting wrapped up into this debate and not all are created equally. Personally I'm fairly frustrated right now that this board is turning into a dumping ground for PUA/MRA dillholes and that adding them to the discussion is diluting any real alpha-beta discussion that could possibly be fruitful for either side.
> 
> Do you really think though that women appreciate having to read posts on a marriage board copy pasting from a website where one of the title articles is called "The Sixteen Commandments of Poon?" Do you really expect women to go into those threads, read them, read the comments of the men that bobble their heads and chant *alpha alpha alpha* and expect women to not be completely turned off by this?
> 
> Defend it as "men talk" all you want, however, the women on the board are reading this too. Because I realize men are in fact, reading this board as well and are also legitimately looking for help in their marriages, I don't sit around and spam radfem articles and studies proving that men are simpletons and actually like it when you act like a domineering *****. But women are supposed to see that, gloss over it like "oh that's men tee hee" and also "not take it seriously."
> 
> The crazy thing about this paragraph though is that there really isn't a book or blog that is sedan-ed around on this website that caters exclusively towards women like there is for men. When that happens, I'll be happy to have these same kind of discussions as to why men find Chateau Poontiste so distasteful as well.


Well French,

I've seen people post about much more * disgusting* things than MMSL and NMNG here.
People post about their love for porn and quite a few women here hate porn.
People glorify anal sex here and I know you hate it, and are turned off by the idea.
Me too, but I don't think that they should not talk about it because it offends me.
People post about sex during their menstrual cycle and some people are disgusted by it.
I've even read threads of men who actually like giving oral to their spouses during her menses.
Still ,others glorify casual sex and others say they are turned off by it.

I don't think anybody's stopping either you or anybody from posting anything , except those that contradict forum rules.

Live and let live.
Yes?

Personally ,I won't mind if you posted your Radfem articles too...
If that is what _you_ believe in.

who knows, it too might make for some very interesting discussions!


----------



## Gaia

AnnieAsh said:


> If a bunch of women posted and gabbed about a book that told women to make sure you're hotter than your husband. Make sure men hit on you in front of him. Make sure he knows he's easily replaceable. Go out without him and don't tell him where you are going (say what!?) Don't do things for him. Make sure he comes to you FIRST for affection/confirmation/sex, I'd say the SAME THING. Are you KIDDING me? How is that going to make your husband love and respect you? How is that going to encourage a strong and balanced healthy relationship?
> 
> If this stuff is what you believe(and I am encompassing all of the material suggested to males on this forum), then more power to you. What difference does it make if I agree or not? But to lil Annie, it is repugnant and juvenile. TO ME.
> 
> And what crusade? I made one post on what I thought was a forum not as trafficked as others. I woke up to 3 pages! Seems like others are making it THEIR crusade that I agree with ideas preached. I don't. I can't.


Ok there are TONS of books out there exactly like this for women and even more that encourage a woman to basically treat her man like crap, put him in a cuckhold position and say that he better like it or else.

Now as I said before.. Either gender can whine, complain, discuss, ect wherever they want whenever they want imo and the ones who believe one gender or the other should shut it... Can shut it themselves imo.

There are mysoginists on both sides of the gender pool. Any advice that encourages treating ones partner like a doormat is advice I am against. If it encourages one to assert themselves and establish boundaries in a healthy way... Im all for it!

I think Annies complaint is about those who twist what should be good advice into something tetrible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FalconKing

FrenchFry said:


> There are so many texts and e-books and blogs right now that all are getting wrapped up into this debate and not all are created equally. Personally I'm fairly frustrated right now that this board is turning into a dumping ground for PUA/MRA dillholes and that adding them to the discussion is diluting any real alpha-beta discussion that could possibly be fruitful for either side.
> 
> Do you really think though that women appreciate having to read posts on a marriage board copy pasting from a website where one of the title articles is called "The Sixteen Commandments of Poon?" Do you really expect women to go into those threads, read them, read the comments of the men that bobble their heads and chant *alpha alpha alpha* and expect women to not be completely turned off by this?
> 
> Defend it as "men talk" all you want, however, the women on the board are reading this too. Because I realize men are in fact, reading this board as well and are also legitimately looking for help in their marriages, I don't sit around and spam radfem articles and studies proving that men are simpletons and actually like it when you act like a domineering *****. But women are supposed to see that, gloss over it like "oh that's men tee hee" and also "not take it seriously."
> 
> The crazy thing about this paragraph though is that there really isn't a book or blog that is sedan-ed around on this website that caters exclusively towards women like there is for men. When that happens, I'll be happy to have these same kind of discussions as to why men find Chateau Poontiste so distasteful as well.


Well FF, I understand where you are coming from. But should the whole notion of it be held accountable for the foolishness and arrogance of some men? I told someone before. The blogger of Chateau is a just a bitter man. And when other men become bitter they will seek such things. I don't live and strive for sleeping with as many men(WOMEN I MEAN...thanks Gaia) as possible. I don't have resentment against women. I do want men to feel empowered and not be emasculated. Maybe a lot of those guys do too but they are fVcked up in the head. We are not all saying the same thing. If 2 people take boxing and one of them beats up people in the street for laughs and the other uses it for self defense, is boxing bad?? 

As far as your last paragraph, I think the sexless marriage problem is probably something more men suffer from than women. I am not discounting that women do not have this problem. The OP is a prime example. But people often speak of it because it is supposed to help with this and women who use sex as a weapon. I think.


----------



## Gaia

FalconKing said:


> I don't live and strive for sleeping with as many men as possible.


So your finicky with your men eh?




:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FalconKing

FrenchFry, what is PIV?


----------



## Drover

I would say neither you, nor the writer of the rules, understands alpha.


----------



## FalconKing

FrenchFry said:


> The people re-posting the bitter man manifesto and actually trying to say it has credulity in any and all marriages should be the ones getting called out, not just from women who don't like the alpha-beta debate but by the men who feel like this is thoroughly unrepresentative of how a man should strive to be.
> 
> Bitter people get no passes from me for posting bull****.


I agree with you. I would like to point out though that for every bitter man on this board there is also a female poster justifying a wife being able to treat her husband any kind of way. And threads like this come up every few months. And it's usually women who want to have a sexually fulfilling marriage and there husband is not on board. Or their husband they find to be manipulative and controlling. So obviously a book telling men to man up to have a sexual marriage would infuriate them. But why take the time to let people know how much you don't like it? Maybe because it's easier than fixing other issues.


----------



## FalconKing

FrenchFry said:


> Oh! Gaia posted it then it went away! PIV= Penis in Vagina.


Oh ok.

Well to be honest, if you posted something like that I wouldn't think much of it personally. You are just a maverick anyway. A polite one


----------



## Gaia

FrenchFry said:


> Oh! Gaia posted it then it went away! PIV= Penis in Vagina.


Lol I went to edit and hit delete by accident then got caught up with discussing eggs with gate... Lmao
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tigger

I think this alpha stuff is just used either to get power back when a man is feeling weak or used to cover up insecurity and get power over someone else to pump up a deflated ego.

The real problem is that people of both genders are just too selfish. Stop being so selfish and self-absorbed, a lot of these problem would disappear.

Too bad my Dad isn't still alive. He was a true man's man. Lots of character, integrity, worked hard for 40 years at the same place, served his country, never stepped out on my mother, never disrespected my mother.

He led the family. He didn't have a big chip on his shoulder and this feeling of entitlement so many have today. 

The mold was broke with him and no book or course can teach what he had.


----------



## AnnieAsh

bandit.45 said:


> Why are the feminists going after the Boy Scouts now? Can't young men have one place they can calle their own. WTF?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The best part is that you posted that in the ladies forum . 

I don't get what the big deal is? What does it matter if one lowly SAHM doesn't agree with the ideals? 

And I was gonna bring punch and pie for everyone...darn.


----------



## I Notice The Details

humanbecoming said:


> Exactly. And real men don't play games. Those are for little boys out to make their wee wees feel good for a few minutes.
> 
> A man who is real husband material knows a relationship is give and take, and gives 100% of what's needed, to a woman who likewise gives 100% of herself. Anything less is dysfunction.


Perfect. Well said!


----------



## Halien

Deleted two pages of thread hijack, a violation of forum rules.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Here is a Perfect Example  of what is wrong with some of the men right here on TAM.

Hint; _Skip the first two paragraphs and jump to the third, that's where the action starts!_


----------



## I Notice The Details

Caribbean Man said:


> Here is a Perfect Example  of what is wrong with some of the men right here on TAM.


I tried your link but it said "page not found". Can you post it as an image?


----------



## Caribbean Man

I Notice The Details said:


> I tried your link but it said "page not found". Can you post it as an image?


Its working now, try it.


----------



## I Notice The Details

Caribbean Man said:


> Its working now, try it.


Got it now....and I agree!


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: What is it with some of the men here?*



Tigger said:


> I think this alpha stuff is just used either to get power back when a man is feeling weak or used to cover up insecurity and get power over someone else to pump up a deflated ego.
> 
> The real problem is that people of both genders are just too selfish. Stop being so selfish and self-absorbed, a lot of these problem would disappear.
> 
> Too bad my Dad isn't still alive. He was a true man's man. Lots of character, integrity, worked hard for 40 years at the same place, served his country, never stepped out on my mother, never disrespected my mother.
> 
> He led the family. He didn't have a big chip on his shoulder and this feeling of entitlement so many have today.
> 
> The mold was broke with him and no book or course can teach what he had.


As I said before a lot of people are missing the point of alpha. This IS alpha. The 'alpha stuff' you're referring to is somewhat games and nonsense, but also somewhat men who don't know how to be the man your father was trying to get there. Don't fault them for that.


----------



## Deejo

That conversation pretty much took place, FF.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...-once-month-why-should-i-have-more-often.html

Women don't like the thought of being manipulated, controlled, gamed, or disrespected.

I know that.

Men? If all of those behaviors I listed above, were practiced by women with the goal of making their men _happy and attracted_ to them ... you wouldn't hear a peep. If you are taking steps to make yourself happy, and as a corollary, that means I'm happy too ... then I'm not going to complain.

Yet, here we are. And here no doubt we will remain. And that's ok.



FrenchFry said:


> True enough, nobody is stopping me. The thing is though, if I went around posting stuff like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and a choir of women followed me around saying "SO RITE!" tell me I'm wrong if the men here wouldn't be scratching their heads and thinking "what is it with some of the women here?"
> 
> I don't post that stuff here because while I find it intellectually challenging and worldview shaping, posting things like "all PIV sex is rape" has almost nothing to do with the marriage issues that might need real advice, just like I find posting PUA rules of poon is silly as all get out.
> 
> I know I have no power to stop people from posting silly stuff, but I absolutely see how OP is like "well wtf" when people post silly stuff and they have a bunch of people saying "YEAH! AWESOME!"


----------



## Jasel

Lon said:


> nope, listening to women will get me half way where I will end up, observing successful men will get me the rest of the way.
> 
> I am a good guy, and behind the keyboard I feel like my personality shines through. I am comfortable with myself here, I feel I treat others appropriately and I understand the consequences of what I post and how others react. But in the real world I struggle with those issues I listed because my niceguy passive doormat traits interfere, and that is what I'm working on in myself to change. I am still a good guy IRL too but I need help from other good guys that have been stuck behind the same obstacle to get past it - and believe me my source of inspiration is not the other niceguys stuck in their niceguy ways on TAM, my inspiration comes from the ones who have chosen to break out of that and who have shared their success stories along the way. I also look to other recovered nice guys who are a little farther along, but when I look too far along I am not ready to accept all I see. And a part of that process, to me, is being able to pay it forward by sharing my own success stories.
> 
> The rhetoric you see from the men on TAM here is just a part of the process of self change that we've chosen to use. It may look ridiculous to you, but to me it is an important part of the things in life I've always rejected which I now have to revisit in order to understand and integrate.


This is kind of how I feel. I used to think the whole alpha/beta argument was ridiculous. After paying closer attention to women, the relationships of people I know, reading about relationship and observing men who have an easier time with women I no longer feel that way. I think it has a lot of merit. Much moreso than people are willing to give credit (because once again I was the same way).

I spent way too many years listening to women say what they want while ignoring the fact that many women either don't seem to know what they want no matter what they say. Or they say they want A, B, or C and go for D, E, or F instead. Sometimes even after they got the A, B, and C they claimed they wanted so much they'd go for something completely different or get sick of what they had. 

I should have spent MUCH more time listening to and watching men who did well with women and had good relationships instead of listening so much to women themselves. More often than not it was a recipe for frustration, confusion and disappointment.

But like others said, there are some people who read into the concept of alpha/beta what they want to. I have a friend who has always been insecure with and jaded towards women. He got on the whole PUA/alpha male trip and basically just started treating women like absolute $h!t. Because that's what he thought worked, what being an alpha male was, and would get him women (it didn't btw).

To me the entire alpha/beta deal is more so about self improvement in order to be more satisifed with yourself and have better interpersonal relationships, and not just with women. Getting laid/picking up women IMO is a positive side effect that a lot of men strive for and is usually their main goal but IMO that should not be the main purpose. It's not about being a d!ck or being a doormat but finding a healthy balance between a seperate set of positive personality traits. It's not to help you crap on women while feeling good about yourself.


----------



## Lon

Jasel said:


> This is kind of how I feel. I used to think the whole alpha/beta argument was ridiculous. After paying closer attention to women, the relationships of people I know, reading about relationship and observing men who have an easier time with women I no longer feel that way. I think it has a lot of merit. Much moreso than people are willing to give credit (because once again I was the same way).
> 
> I spent way too many years listening to women say what they want while ignoring the fact that many women either don't seem to know what they want no matter what they say. *Or they say they want A, B, or C and go for D, E, or F instead*. Sometimes even after they got the A, B, and C they claimed they wanted so much they'd go for something completely different or get sick of what they had.
> 
> I should have spent MUCH more time listening to and watching men who did well with women and had good relationships instead of listening so much to women themselves. More often than not it was a recipe for frustration, confusion and disappointment.
> 
> But like others said, *there are some people who read into the concept of alpha/beta what they want to*. I have a friend who has always been insecure with and jaded towards women. He got on the whole PUA/alpha male trip and basically just started treating women like absolute $h!t. Because that's what he thought worked, what being an alpha male was, and would get him women (it didn't btw).
> 
> To me *the entire alpha/beta deal is more so about self improvement in order to be more satisifed with yourself and have better interpersonal relationships, and not just with women*. Getting laid/picking up women IMO is a positive side effect that a lot of men strive for and is usually their main goal but IMO that should not be the main purpose. It's not about being a d!ck or being a doormat but finding a healthy balance between a seperate set of positive personality traits. It's not to help you crap on women while feeling good about yourself.


yep, same as I feel - there is a LOT of value in listening to women say what they want, also a lot of value in watching them act upon those desires, but there is just as much value in observing successful men (the same kind of successful men that women say they are looking for, the kind like Tigger's dad) and trying to learn how to succeed in your own way. I think the problem with how the whole gaming thing comes across is that most people see that because it is self-centered that means it is about being more selfish - which for some (especially PUAs) that is the case, but for recovering niceguys it is really about getting out of the passenger seat before their life is over.


----------



## bandit.45

Lon said:


> yep, same as I feel - there is a LOT of value in listening to women say what they want, also a lot of value in watching them act upon those desires,* but there is just as much value in observing successful men (the same kind of successful men that women say they are looking for, the kind like Tigger's dad) and trying to learn how to succeed in your own way.* I think the problem with how the whole gaming thing comes across is that most people see that because it is self-centered that means it is about being more selfish - which for some (especially PUAs) that is the case, but for recovering niceguys it is really about getting out of the passenger seat before their life is over.


What about the successful, self-made guys who have been cheated on and taken to the cleaners by their wives? We've seen a slew of them on this forum. This fact alone seems to pose questions to this statement.


----------



## Thundarr

The joke isn't on the guy who reads alpha crap and buys into some of it or on the guy who didn't need read it because he's already the type. 
The joke is on the women who sees it for the dribble it is in theory yet find some men more attractive without knowing it's because they read it. 
The joke is on the doormat who sees it for the dribble it is in theory yet finds his wife sleeping with a jerk later on who read it. 
The joke is sometimes on whoever finds it the most offensive.

See it for what it is. A load of dribble with some legitimate concepts in human nature that some guys should read.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Thundarr said:


> The joke isn't on the guy who reads alpha crap and buys into some of it or on the guy who didn't need read it because he's already the type.
> The joke is on the women who sees it for the dribble it is in theory yet find some men more attractive without knowing it's because they read it.
> The joke is on the doormat who sees it for the dribble it is in theory yet finds his wife sleeping with a jerk later on who read it.
> The joke is sometimes on whoever finds it the most offensive.
> 
> See it for what it is. A load of dribble with some legitimate concepts in human nature that some guys should read.


:iagree:

In-frigging-deed. But don't ever write logical things again. Some people love the blue pill too much, you cannot change it.


----------



## bandit.45

Thundarr said:


> The joke isn't on the guy who reads alpha crap and buys into some of it or on the guy who didn't need read it because he's already the type.
> The joke is on the women who sees it for the dribble it is in theory yet find some men more attractive without knowing it's because they read it.
> The joke is on the doormat who sees it for the dribble it is in theory yet finds his wife sleeping with a jerk later on who read it.
> The joke is sometimes on whoever finds it the most offensive.
> 
> See it for what it is. A load of dribble with some legitimate concepts in human nature that some guys should read.


That's some reverse osmosis right there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LittleBird

Lyris said:


> I think the idea of a simple formula that is under your control and promises you more sex is very attractive to a certain type of man in a certain type of situation.
> 
> And not only does is let them off the hook from doing their fair share of housework, it also claims that women prefer having to all the sh*tty, boring, everyday tasks themselves and will automatically go weak at the knees if their men refuse to demean themselves with such things.


I never thought I'd agree with Mama Lyris....but I agree with Mama Lyris. 

:iagree:


----------



## that_girl

I'm done with men.

No joke.

Done. 

Nothing good (besides my kids) has come to me in my life from loving a man. From birth to now. I'm not jaded, I completely believe in love. I'm just done with men.


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: What is it with some of the men here?*



Thundarr said:


> The joke isn't on the guy who reads alpha crap and buys into some of it or on the guy who didn't need read it because he's already the type.
> The joke is on the women who sees it for the dribble it is in theory yet find some men more attractive without knowing it's because they read it.
> The joke is on the doormat who sees it for the dribble it is in theory yet finds his wife sleeping with a jerk later on who read it.
> The joke is sometimes on whoever finds it the most offensive.
> 
> See it for what it is. A load of dribble with some legitimate concepts in human nature that some guys should read.


The stuff that actually talks about alpha isn't dribble. The stuff that talks a bunch of crap about ridiculously manipulative games and just being an obnoxious ******* is dribble...and really has nothing to do with alpha anyway. Alpha is about leadership and confidence, not being an *******.


----------



## LittleBird

that_girl said:


> I'm done with men.
> 
> No joke.
> 
> Done.
> 
> Nothing good (besides my kids) has come to me in my life from loving a man. From birth to now. I'm not jaded, I completely believe in love. I'm just done with men.


Half tempted to join you. 

I could finally get some good oral.


----------



## Lon

that_girl said:


> I'm done with men.
> 
> No joke.
> 
> Done.
> 
> Nothing good (besides my kids) has come to me in my life from loving a man. From birth to now. I'm not jaded, I completely believe in love. I'm just done with men.


half of people are men, and I suspect they are not done with you  (I'm not going to suggest if that is good or bad, just a fact).

I would like to say I'm done with idiots, but alas they are still all around.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> The joke is sometimes on whoever finds it the most offensive.


...and the funny part is that some of them find it offensive while at the same time proposing radical feminist ideals as _the_ solution to the problem.
Ha ha.

Clearly , as has been said from time to time here,the answers lie somewhere between.
I think most men are intelligent enogh to apply what works,and dump the rest.
Conventional wisdom says:
"..._Half a loaf is better than none_.."

For the man who is unable to differentiate,
The joke is _also_ on him.


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: What is it with some of the men here?*



Coffee Amore said:


> Jaquen's post from a few weeks ago captures what I think about this phenomenon.


Disagree entirely. Men can learn. Men can evolve. We're all learning and growing every day. Yes a lot of what is written is crap but a lot is not. The bad stuff is about emulating a puffed up jock-badboy-fratboy. The good stuff is about finding your strength and confidence and improving yourself...learning not let yourself get run over. A lot of men are just trying to do what they think is right...what they learned growing up...and don't even realize they're getting run over or used. Alpha is not about being a puffed up *******. And the women that take that from what is being written often do so out of their own insecurity and defensiveness or just misunderstanding.


----------



## that_girl

Lon said:


> half of people are men, and I suspect they are not done with you  (I'm not going to suggest if that is good or bad, just a fact).
> 
> I would like to say I'm done with idiots, but alas they are still all around.


Ha. Thanks, Lon. But I'm done. Promise


----------



## Caribbean Man

Lon said:


> *I would like to say I'm done with idiots, but alas they are still all around.*


:smthumbup:

Sounds like you have done the necessary homework and passed the with flying colours...

More power to you!


----------



## Deejo

Apologies, I linked the incorrect thread in my post above. This is the one I intended to link with regards to French Fry's point. Both shared similarities. Both were lengthy discussions.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...cuss-how-we-could-help-men-want-sex-less.html


----------



## that_girl

Deejo said:


> Apologies, I linked the incorrect thread in my post above. This is the one I intended to link with regards to French Fry's point. Both shared similarities. Both were lengthy discussions.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...cuss-how-we-could-help-men-want-sex-less.html


 :rofl:

Lame. I need someone who wants sex a lot.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> Apologies, I linked the incorrect thread in my post above. This is the one I intended to link with regards to French Fry's point. Both shared similarities. Both were lengthy discussions.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...cuss-how-we-could-help-men-want-sex-less.html


Posted by; *miss-understood*.
06-13-2011 @09.00 Post # 8

_nader, we women pay a high price for sex. 

In our current culture, it's the norm for us to be expected to "suck it up" and clean it all up, and not complain or burden the men with the details. we go to the doctor once a year to be cranked open to have our cervixes scraped with a brush. to monitor vaginal health (and to monitor the HPV that's spread via sexual contact, that does virtually nothing to men, but can cause deadly cervical cancer for us). We go in for cone biopsies, having our cervical cells cryo-freezed off, we go in for all the antifungals and antibiotics from BV, yeast infections and UTIs that are not sexually "transmitted" but come about from having sex (set off by having sex).

Modern men have been shielded from the messiness and everything that women do for sex. 

Men don't have to bear this expense (and itchiness, and pain from "procedures", and UTIs). And I haven't even mentioned pregnancy yet, and ectopic pregnancy (I have 2 friends who nearly died because of ectopic pregnancies) and abortions.

All because of sex. Which is fun and games for the men. And carries a high physical price for women. We've just been told to hide it, in our current culture. 

Men should at least respect these basic biological facts. And women's bodies. 

I mean, when was the last time a dude had sex and then worried about it for the next several days AFTER. Or got on the phone with his girlfriends the next day to say, "OMG, we had sex last night. And now it's itching and burning - I think I have UTI coming on from it, ugh". Or how often do dudes fret and look at the calendar, and wonder what they're going to DO because their period is late. (Married or not.)

Or how often do thy sniff and around for days after (when using the restroom) because they feel a BV infection coming on. 

No - they have sex and then feel like heroes! And feel great the next few days. They have nothing to clean up and look after. 

All I'm saying is - recognize it, and respect it. And ladies, stop pretending and hiding/downplaying it. Sex has some pretty serious negative affects on women's bodies, as well as some positive. Let's be honest about it._


Hmmmm,
Where have I seen this type of logic recently?:scratchhead:


----------



## Caribbean Man

Drover said:


> Disagree entirely. *Men can learn. Men can evolve. We're all learning and growing every day. Yes a lot of what is written is crap but a lot is not. The bad stuff is about emulating a puffed up jock-badboy-fratboy. The good stuff is about finding your strength and confidence and improving yourself...learning not let yourself get run over. A lot of men are just trying to do what they think is right...what they learned growing up...and don't even realize they're getting run over or used.*


THANK YOU!
This is what I have been saying everytime the topic comes up.
Human beings can and do evolve. It is how we got here. The process of evolution is what helped form some of our social constructs, and to a certain extent _even_ some of our biology.
One hundred years ago, the concept of a " nucleus family " was inconceivable.
Duh!


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Deejo said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...cuss-how-we-could-help-men-want-sex-less.html


Ummm, okay, barf?

Are there people like that, really? I have only seen an approach like this in RadFem forums(okay they were a bit harsher than this, but still same logic)(yes i read some radical feminist stuff and my soul died.)


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Caribbean Man said:


> THANK YOU!
> This is what I have been saying everytime the topic comes up.
> Human beings can and do evolve. It is how we got here. The process of evolution is what helped form some of our social constructs, and to a certain extent _even_ some of our biology.
> One hundred years ago, the concept of a " nucleus family " was inconceivable.
> Duh!


And as they learn and grow, they influence those around them. Hence the importance of knowing Married Game in a LTR/marriage.


----------



## Deejo

Point I was trying to make, is it's easier to get caught up in the argument than it is looking for a solution.

That OP that thread wanted to know why men who were unhappy with their frequency wouldn't look for a solution in consciously reducing their drive.

Much like FF's post, it is a logical step that cannot be made with logic by a man.

I think the same thing applies to those who despise the 'better man' 'alpha' course of action with every fiber of their being.

They CAN'T understand it. But railing against something that one claims to be stupid ... yet demonstrably yields results; is the equivalent of wondering why men don't want to take steps to lower their libido.

It is a chasm that cannot be bridged.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> I think the same thing applies to those who despise the 'better man' 'alpha' course of action with every fiber of their being.
> 
> They CAN'T understand it. But railing against something that one claims to be stupid ... yet demonstrably yields results; is the equivalent of wondering why men don't want to take steps to lower their libido.
> 
> It is a chasm that cannot be bridged.


A term comes to mind;

_Confirmatory Bias_.

We all have it. But it takes a certain level of maturity and honesty to objectively evaluate the stuff we either don't understand or strongly dislike.

This is one of the character traits makes a marriage _work_, or fail.


----------



## Lon

you know Annie, it just clicked in for me that you were also the OP of the thread where you stated your H bores you sometimes. Many guys (99.9% of betrayed spouses) on this thread were also that guy who lost their W's attraction, and we all KNOW why, it's because we refused to be the alpha guy for too long, we have taken a female-like repulsive approach to the a-hole like qualities being espoused by the man-up genre... and how has it worked out for us? If your H is a bore, it's because he has tempered himself to the point where he won't offend. Meanwhile, has he actually done anything of those breaking out exercises in NMMNG? do you have any actual experience of him being an a-hole because of the advice available? What exactly would be YOUR advice for your H to find a way to become more fun and break out of his boring routine that would actually make you swoon for him again?


----------



## Tigger

Drover said:


> As I said before a lot of people are missing the point of alpha. This IS alpha. The 'alpha stuff' you're referring to is somewhat games and nonsense, but also somewhat men who don't know how to be the man your father was trying to get there. Don't fault them for that.


That is the point. My father was true alpha, not this fake score keeping, whiny, passive aggressive, game playing, selfish, entitled alpha that is being passed off as true alpha.

I couldn't fathom my father being like so many of these weak men today coming home and playing video games and whining about how unfair everything is.

Man up and grow up!

He would be out working on the car or doing some building project or writing or organizing his fishing gear or doing volunteer work for veterans.

You don't need some slick book or course to be alpha. 

Go find some elderly gentlemen who worked a hard days work for 40 years and was married to the same woman for 50 years and sit down and listen. Those men are the true experts.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Tigger said:


> You don't need some slick book or course to be alpha.
> 
> Go find some elderly gentlemen who worked a hard days work for 40 years and was married to the same woman for 50 years and sit down and listen. Those men are the true experts.


Weirdly enough, no. Don't get me wrong they knew what they were doing. But the rules have changed since then. Now is the age of uninhibited female hypergamy and feminism. The game has changed, thus the players have to change.


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: What is it with some of the men here?*



Tigger said:


> That is the point. My father was true alpha, not this fake score keeping, whiny, passive aggressive, game playing, selfish, entitled alpha that is being passed off as true alpha.
> 
> I couldn't fathom my father being like so many of these weak men today coming home and playing video games and whining about how unfair everything is.
> 
> Man up and grow up!
> 
> He would be out working on the car or doing some building project or writing or organizing his fishing gear or doing volunteer work for veterans.
> 
> You don't need some slick book or course to be alpha.
> 
> Go find some elderly gentlemen who worked a hard days work for 40 years and was married to the same woman for 50 years and sit down and listen. Those men are the true experts.


So you're anti reading? No some people do not have a good role model. Or may have had a role model who was OUTSTANDING in some aspects of life but poor at others. Or had a role model who was simply a poor teacher. 

I'll tell you about a family member who got 99percent of it, but has really screwed up relationships with women because his parents were simply very old school and all affection, all man-woman discussion was kept private. He's very alpha but has no idea how to relate to women. That's an example.

Numerous others were raised primarily by divorced women, and brought up learning to please women...ie. learn to be doormats. I tend to be very alpha in most other aspects of my life but yes, was a doormat.

There's nothing wrong with reading to learn to work on your weaknesses. And implying there is, is well...just dumb.

And yes, I agree as stated above that the game playing nonsense is not really alpha. It's crap. But personally I've been helped a lot and my wife would agree, as would many wives here.


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: What is it with some of the men here?*



Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Weirdly enough, no. Don't get me wrong they knew what they were doing. But the rules have changed since then. Now is the age of uninhibited female hypergamy and feminism. The game has changed, thus the players have to change.


Goof point too. Most women do not want to think like or put up with what their mothers did.


----------



## Runs like Dog

that_girl said:


> I'm done with men.
> 
> No joke.
> 
> Done.


_I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission. And I want to help you._


----------



## Tigger

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Weirdly enough, no. Don't get me wrong they knew what they were doing. But the rules have changed since then. Now is the age of uninhibited female hypergamy and feminism. The game has changed, thus the players have to change.


So you have done that and they had nothing to teach you? You've sat down with a hard working elderly gent and had a good talk about life?


----------



## Tigger

Drover said:


> So you're anti reading? No some people do not have a good role model. Or may have had a role model who was OUTSTANDING in some aspects of life but poor at others. Or had a role model who was simply a poor teacher.
> 
> I'll tell you about a family member who got 99percent of it, but has really screwed up relationships with women because his parents were simply very old school and all affection, all man-woman discussion was kept private. He's very alpha but has no idea how to relate to women. That's an example.
> 
> Numerous others were raised primarily by divorced women, and brought up learning to please women...ie. learn to be doormats. I tend to be very alpha in most other aspects of my life but yes, was a doormat.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with reading to learn to work on your weaknesses. And implying there is, is well...just dumb.
> 
> And yes, I agree as stated above that the game playing nonsense is not really alpha. It's crap. But personally I've been helped a lot and my wife would agree, as would many wives here.


Of course I am not anti reading.

I am anti snake oil salesman.

Self proclaimed experts wanting to separate you from your money.

Old school alpha men didn't learn how to be a man from a book.


----------



## Holland

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Weirdly enough, no. Don't get me wrong they knew what they were doing. But the rules have changed since then. Now is the age of uninhibited female hypergamy and feminism. *The game has changed, thus the players have to change*.


This is the part that makes me want to vomit just a little bit. 

The viewing of it all as a game and that women are to be played. Yuk, off putting, just yuk.


----------



## AnnieAsh

I have no idea where my thread has gone lol. 

Hiya Lon!  Thanks for taking the time to write to me.

It sounds like I am making this up but my husband is a 6'2, burly federal agent. He has served in a war zone...he has seen some grizzly stuff. He deals every day with some bad people who HATE him just because of the uniform he wears. He has done undercover work, jumped out of planes, carries a gun everywhere he goes. He is authoritative and methodical.

The problem is all those things that make him a bada** agent? Make him a less than stellar husband. There is no tenderness, no affection. He has, in the past, pushed me away from him. Kisses and hugs are rejected. Now, I will say it's gotten better since the whole EA debacle because he doesn't actively push me away. He just doesn't initiate. 

He has not tempered himself. I am no shrinking violet. He knows slow gentle love is not what I need. I'm a handcuffs kind of gal. And let me stop right there before I get too graphic lol. 

What would make me swoon is: spontaneous affection. Making love anywhere else but our bed. Long conversations like we used to have. His eyes lighting up when I walk in the room. A little help and appreciation around the house. 

Things were going well but...work got in the way. He puts off our date nights. And being quiet little Annie I try REALLY hard not to complain.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Tigger said:


> Of course I am not anti reading.
> 
> I am anti snake oil salesman.
> 
> Self proclaimed experts wanting to separate you from your money.
> 
> Old school alpha men didn't learn how to be a man from a book.


Lol, they could get away with more stuff than you, believe that. Even a milquetoast was able to marry and he would be set for life. Now that milquetoast will be ridiculed, humiliated, cuckolded, divorced and taken to the cleaners.

I get that you are trying to be idealistic. But idealism died a long time ago. Weren't you at the funeral?


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Holland said:


> This is the part that makes me want to vomit just a little bit.
> 
> The viewing of it all as a game and that women are to be played. Yuk, off putting, just yuk.


I'm sorry I didn't get the memo that using analogies was prohibited.


----------



## Runs like Dog

You know it's bit like that 'reality' show from 10 years ago "The Mole". There is one enormous flaw in the structure of that show. The BEST strategy to winning is to play AS the mole even when, especially when you're not. Dealing with relationships can be a bit like that. Not exactly gaming the game but operating in a way with the best possible worst case as the goal. If you say you are 'a man' and act like you are then the odds are you'll succeed in ways that reflect you are.


----------



## Lon

AnnieAsh said:


> I have no idea where my thread has gone lol.
> 
> Hiya Lon!  Thanks for taking the time to write to me.
> 
> It sounds like I am making this up but my husband is a 6'2, burly federal agent. He has served in a war zone...he has seen some grizzly stuff. He deals every day with some bad people who HATE him just because of the uniform he wears. He has done undercover work, jumped out of planes, carries a gun everywhere he goes. He is authoritative and methodical.
> 
> The problem is all those things that make him a bada** agent? Make him a less than stellar husband. There is no tenderness, no affection. He has, in the past, pushed me away from him. Kisses and hugs are rejected. Now, I will say it's gotten better since the whole EA debacle because he doesn't actively push me away. He just doesn't initiate.
> 
> He has not tempered himself. I am no shrinking violet. He knows slow gentle love is not what I need. I'm a handcuffs kind of gal. And let me stop right there before I get too graphic lol.
> 
> What would make me swoon is: spontaneous affection. Making love anywhere else but our bed. Long conversations like we used to have. His eyes lighting up when I walk in the room. A little help and appreciation around the house.
> 
> Things were going well but...work got in the way. He puts off our date nights. And being quiet little Annie I try REALLY hard not to complain.


So why are you worried at all about him alpha'ing up at all, he's as alpha as they come, except he is still sticking around, which means he feels a sense of duty to be there. So he atleast has a little beta there to work with, manning up isn't the thing he needs, what he needs is a spouse who will challenge him while keeping him grounded (and maybe you have tried in your ways, but it doesn't translate). Or maybe he just needs to unwind, when is the last time he took a long, pleasure only vacation? When he shows you love, how does he do it, what is is giving and receving love languages and what are yours?


----------



## Holland

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> I'm sorry I didn't get the memo that using analogies was prohibited.


There was no memo AFAIK

However the gaming reference is really baseline. It seems to come across as a mindset and sadly the weaker men (the very ones that are in an alpha frenzy) take it literally. This is where they screw up because playing it as a game will never see them with a quality woman so they are destined to live in weak world forever. 
They will end up with the nasty ones that will stomp all over their alpha less arse.

Any woman with some dignity and self esteem will run a mile from a game playing jerk.


----------



## Tigger

Runs like Dog said:


> You know it's bit like that 'reality' show from 10 years ago "The Mole". There is one enormous flaw in the structure of that show. The BEST strategy to winning is to play AS the mole even when, especially when you're not. Dealing with relationships can be a bit like that. Not exactly gaming the game but operating in a way with the best possible worst case as the goal. If you say you are 'a man' and act like you are then the odds are you'll succeed in ways that reflect you are.


That is the problem. You need to turn the tv off and go do something. Be involved in something.

You can't learn to be a man from a tv show.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Lon...the point was the fact that everyone throws that advice around like that...I don't believe that it helps fix sucky marriages. Clearly, J reading those books would be even MORE detrimental to our relationship. The fact that being a good husband does not equal GAMING YOUR WIFE. Whew. That was the point. 

Let's say...between the two of us...he unwinds a little more. He goes out with his friends, plays his games, sometimes at work they go to Starbucks and chat. 

We did the marriage builders questionnaires. My important needs are conversation, sex, and recreational companionship. His were honesty, domestic support (since he is gone so much) and I believe sex or recreational companionship.

ETA: I don't mean for anyone here to solve my problems. The thread started as a rant...and now it seems like some men are insulted that I think that stuff is puerile. To each his own! I was really addressing it to the ladies of the forum, but I greatly appreciate you trying to help me! I really do


----------



## Tigger

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Lol, they could get away with more stuff than you, believe that. Even a milquetoast was able to marry and he would be set for life. Now that milquetoast will be ridiculed, humiliated, cuckolded, divorced and taken to the cleaners.
> 
> I get that you are trying to be idealistic. But idealism died a long time ago. Weren't you at the funeral?


There it is, that whining about how unfair things are now.

Not alpha.

Do you have any manly hobbies like woodworking, growing things, home repairs, fishing, hunting?

Do you know how to change a tire on a car?


----------



## FalconKing

Holland said:


> There was no memo AFAIK
> 
> However the gaming reference is really baseline. It seems to come across as a mindset and sadly the weaker men (the very ones that are in an alpha frenzy) take it literally. This is where they screw up because playing it as a game will never see them with a quality woman so they are destined to live in weak world forever.
> They will end up with the nasty ones that will stomp all over their alpha less arse.
> 
> *Any woman with some dignity and self esteem will run a mile from a game playing jerk*.


Yeah. I agree with that. I tend to avoid women who fall for a lot of that foolishness. I like women who see through B.S.


----------



## FalconKing

Tigger said:


> There it is, that whining about how unfair things are now.
> 
> Not alpha.
> 
> Do you have any manly hobbies like woodworking, growing things, home repairs, fishing, hunting?
> 
> Do you know how to change a tire on a car?


I've been in some fights.... 

More so just been punched in the face a lot.


----------



## Lyris

FalconKing said:


> I've been in some fights....
> 
> More so just been punched in the face a lot.


That reminds me of a quote from Friday Night Lights I always liked. Matt Saracen says he never gets up close during fights, he just stands at the back yelling stuff.

Good to see you FK! You haven't been around much this week.


----------



## Tigger

Holland said:


> This is the part that makes me want to vomit just a little bit.
> 
> The viewing of it all as a game and that women are to be played. Yuk, off putting, just yuk.



That is what the snake oil salesmen are selling. Treat women like garbage and you can have sex with 50 super models and the guys just lap this up like a dog with a meaty bone.

It is just selling more selfishness

Seriously no real man would feel the need to put up a web site with a book or course and say look at me look at me I'm an expert, I claim to have had sex with 100s of hot women and if you buy this course you can do that too!

but look at me look at me I'm an expert so you should buy this.

good grief people wise up.


----------



## FalconKing

I'm more interested in men writing books on how to keep a healthy sex life for years with ONE woman. Sleeping around with a bunch of random people is not that difficult. Just be around a lot of alcohol, have good hygiene and be able to hold a decent conversation.


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: What is it with some of the men here?*



Tigger said:


> Of course I am not anti reading.
> 
> I am anti snake oil salesman.
> 
> Self proclaimed experts wanting to separate you from your money.
> 
> Old school alpha men didn't learn how to be a man from a book.


Again there are some that are pretty bad and some very good...like books on ANY topic. But generalizing them all as useless or scams is pretty ridiculous. How many have you actually read in their entirety before condemning them all?


----------



## Tigger

Drover said:


> Again there are some that are pretty bad and some very good...like books on ANY topic. But generalizing them all as useless or scams is pretty ridiculous. How many have you actually read in their entirety before condemning them all?


I don't think you are getting it. You don't learn how to be a man from reading a book.


----------



## Drover

*Re: Re: What is it with some of the men here?*



Tigger said:


> I don't think you are getting it. You don't learn how to be a man from reading a book.


Good to know you're perfect and books have nothing to teach you. You know everything you need yo about being or becoming the perfect woman. I have to wonder why you're even here?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *Tigger said*: I don't think you are getting it. You don't learn how to be a man from reading a book.


I want to interject something here... Many do not have the generous loving giving role model of the Father you grew up with.... many of us lacked....even I ...but in the female role... I will be the 1st to say.. BOOKS were a treasured friend to me

... Books taught me how to be a Mother even....sure... instinct was leading as well.. but I had no Mother to admire & look to -to mold myself after (maybe my Grandmother)... but darn it...I wanted to be the Best.. so I threw myself into Books... I knew as much as any older mother because of all I read. 

Books also helped me overcome some Anger issues, Books helped me understand Forgiveness, Books helped me be better in Bed !! 

Men can learn from a Good book - to understand where he is failing, the why's behind his motivations...and the psychology to change, to be the best man he can be. 

To education & come to understand yourself is Power... Not everyone had a Father like yourself. So we need to brave it alone and read books written by GOOD men like that... to inspire.


----------



## Holland

Books can be a great source of knowledge. Me, well I come from the school of hard life lessons and books to add to the knowledge.

But some of these alpha up websites are just plain stupid. They appeal to the lowest common denominator type of man looking for sex.
Like FK said, sex is not that difficult to find.

However if a man wants love, sex and a decent life partner they are sadly mistaken if they think such gems as "the 16 commandments of poon" and the like offer real life educational material.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I'm copying & pasting my opening post ...








as I feel this captures the Perfect Man , with the perfect balance. 

Screw the Poon ...that's the "Players manifesto". 



> I stumbled upon this Blog....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7 Traits of a Real Man - One Fathers Quest to be a Better Dad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It just captured the essence & spirit of How I personally view the very best of MEN...
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> One of the blog replies said this >>
> 
> 
> 
> "This is truly a genderless list. If all of us could strive to be less self-involved and more outwardly tuned, we'd be the humans we all have the potential to be. Most importantly, the world would be a far better place for our children."
> 
> 
> 
> Now that I agree with .... Wanted to share this...
> (I added the quotes & my own little addition with *#8* & *#9* below)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *1*.... *Integrity* – Integrity is more than being honest. It’s a lifestyle set on striving towards moral excellence. Real men say what they mean and mean what they say. They are the same person whether or not others are watching. They are trustworthy, dependable, and unwavering.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *2*....*Compassion* – Compassion is sympathetic consciousness of others’ distress together with a desire to alleviate it. In other words, you feel compelled to help someone who is hurting. Men aren’t often viewed as being compassionate, but it is a trait that helps us to become more connected to the people around us. Real men turn their compassion into service and work to make the world a better place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *3*.... *Confidence* – Real men are confident. Many people confuse confidence with arrogance and self-centeredness. Real men know the difference. Confidence is about being self-assured and self-aware. Confident men have faith in their abilities and knowledge. They don’t need to tear others down in order to build themselves up. They earn people’s trust with their radiant, inner strength. When a they walk into the room, everyone takes notice.
> 
> *4*....*Self-control* – Hardly a day goes by without a news report about some high-profile man who has been destroyed by sex, money, and/or drugs. Too many men lack self-control, but it is the foundation of a virtuous life. Self-control starts with focus and ridding yourself of distractions. Doing this isn’t easy because temptations lurk around every corner. Real men are able to tame their desires and channel that energy into positive pursuits.
> 
> “Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude.” William James
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *5*....*Perseverance* – Perseverance is the product of self-control. It is courageous resistance against difficult circumstances. Perseverance is only developed through trials. Real men endure the trials and emerge stronger. They never give up."
> 
> "Sometimes you must cross a bridge and other times you need to burn it. But, always keep building one and never lose your faith in life". ~Dodinsky.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *6*....*Bravery* – Bravery is the courage to do what is right regardless of the circumstances. Nothing is ever accomplished with an attitude of passivity. Real men stand up in the face of adversity.
> 
> "Look at hopelessness in the face and say: "We are simply not meant to be together. Hold courage's hand and walk away". ~Dodinsky
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *7*....*Humility* – Today’s breed of young men loves to let everyone know how much swagger they have. They thump their chests and proclaim to the world, “I’m a Big Deal. Look at me!” Real men understand the value of being humble and letting someone else’s light shine. They realize that humility is more endearing than self-importance.
> 
> Humility indicates that you are ridding yourself of the poison of self-centeredness. Besides, humility softens the blow when someone knocks you off your pedestal.
> Acquiring all of these traits takes time and dedication. However, our society would benefit greatly if all men strove to possess them.
> 
> *8*.... *A Real Man has Charisma, Passion, & Reliability* ...A real man is not afraid to show his emotions - for he is secure in himself. A real man knows what he wants from life...and always puts his woman first. A real man knows how to treat his woman, and will go out of his way for her. You can put all of your faith in a real man, because he will not fail you. Although these type of men sound like they are from a fairy tale, they do exist.
> 
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> *9.*...*Real Men Protect & Provide*. In the same way that most women are appear programmed to protect & nurture their children/loved ones.... Real Men are programmed to Protect & Provide for the women & children in their lives. Real men do protect women & our society should back them up on it.
> 
> The physical-strength advantage that most males have over most females puts them at a huge advantage over women – advantage that, unfortunately, gets abused by some men. Thankfully, the majority of men are not like this -therefore we should be careful to not generalize treating all men as potential predators or evil.
> 
> “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.” ~ Edmund Burke
Click to expand...


----------



## AnnieAsh

French Fry, get out of my head, woman! I always enjoy reading your posts btw! 

I definitely need to speak up more. I'm very sociable and talkative but when it comes to telling my husband to shut the eff up and LISTEN to me...I become a mute! I have this intense fear of being a nag and have gone the opposite direction. 

All that talk about female hypergamy and the limbic system...I just sort of shake my head. Hopefully I can remain in control of my ladybits and not drop trou for the next player that comes along!


----------



## Caribbean Man

It's 9.30 PM down here.
Its Saturday night and in our house, Friday , Saturday and Sunday nights are dedicated to my wife's sexual pleasure.

We had a great time earlier this afternoon, doing some fun things and now , she's inside getting impatient.
She tells me its time to log off.
So I'll do the " beta" thing and listen to my wife.

However, in the bedroom,
She definitely wants the _ALPHA_.....

Have fun and we'll catch up tomorrow.
Goodnight!


----------



## Tigger

SimplyAmorous said:


> To education & come to understand yourself is Power... Not everyone had a Father like yourself. So we need to brave it alone and read books written by GOOD men like that... to inspire.


Nobody has to go it alone.

That is part of the problem of society. We aren't connecting anymore.

A man can join a male civics group and learn to lead, build, create which is what men are supposed to do. There are men out there willing to be role models. Men have to just turn the tv and computer off and go find them.

I'm finding it hard to believe that people really can't think far enough out of the box to see this.


----------



## bandit.45

This is goofy thread. I don't know where I rank on the manly scale.

I hunt, I fish, I like chopping wood, I love running a chainsaw, I'm a passable handyman, I can frame and build a garage, I can get an older model car up and running if need be, I can re-roof a house, I can sweat copper piping, I can drywall, I can start a campfire without matches or a lighter, I like to lift weights and work out, I like to play guitar and sing old honky tonk country songs...

I hate fighting, hate posturing, hate false machismo, hate dog fighting...

I love and adore women, I love how they smell, taste and feel. I love looking at them and talking sweet to them and making them feel good to be in the same room with me...but I'm no woman's emotional slave or boot-scraper. I expect a woman to treat me with respect as I treat her with respect. 

I'm me, and I will not be pigeonholed or categorized or offput because of my beliefs. I'm not an alpha or beta, or omega or whatever...

I'm just a dude, and I apologize to no one for who I am.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandc

Annie!

I really have nothing to add here. My wife says I'm very alpha but I feel like I'm a beta. So I guess I have that balance. 

I just mostly am glad to see you still hanging around the joint. You and hubby still on the road to R?


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## Thundarr

Tigger said:


> I don't think you are getting it. You don't learn how to be a man from reading a book.


Men learn how to be men from their fathers. *wait.....No they don't*. When their fathers don't know what the hell to teach them or aren't around or are too drunk or high or are taking orders from mom then where do they learn it? They don't.

My dad didn't teach me crap about women but my first wife did and I learn fast. My current (2nd) wife of near twenty years thinks I'm pretty spectacular and I know she's freaking awesome but she wouldn't have liked who I was before I took doormat-101 (the ex). 

Like Caribbean Man said, anyone who's actually going to be a man has to know what information to use and what to throw away. By the way, what I've seen on TAM is the only alpha lit I've read.


----------



## Deejo

So ... before we get further lost in this wonderful argument, after reading a number of your posts Annie, it seems relatively clear to me that you do WANT your husband. You do love the man. You just want less of the badass. 

That a fair assessment?


----------



## Holland

bandit.45 said:


> This is goofy thread. I don't know where I rank on the manly scale.
> 
> I hunt, I fish, I like chopping wood, I love running a chainsaw, I'm a passable handyman, I can frame and build a garage, I can get an older model car up and running if need be, I can re-roof a house, I can sweat copper piping, I can drywall, I can start a campfire without matches or a lighter, I like to lift weights and work out, I like to play guitar and sing old honky tonk country songs...
> 
> I hate fighting, hate posturing, hate false machismo, hate dog fighting...
> 
> I love and adore women, I love how they smell, taste and feel. I love looking at them and talking sweet to them and making them feel good to be in the same room with me...but I'm no woman's emotional slave or boot-scraper. I expect a woman to treat me with respect as I treat her with respect.
> 
> I'm me, and I will not be pigeonholed or categorized or offput because of my beliefs. I'm not an alpha or beta, or omega or whatever...
> 
> I'm just a dude, and I apologize to no one for who I am.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're ace :smthumbup: and what a good man should be.


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## Thundarr

I agree with SimplyAmorous' list.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/66716-what-some-men-here-10.html#post1415275

1.... Integrity
2....Compassion
3.... Confidence
4....Self-control
5....Perseverance
6....Bravery
7....Humility
8.... A Real Man has Charisma, Passion, & Reliability
9....Real Men Protect & Provide

FrenchFry has an awesome post just before this.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/66716-what-some-men-here-10.html#post1415225


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## bandit.45

Thundarr said:


> I agree with SimplyAmorous' list.
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/66716-what-some-men-here-10.html#post1415275
> 
> 1.... Integrity
> 2....Compassion
> 3.... Confidence
> 4....Self-control
> 5....Perseverance
> 6....Bravery
> 7....Humility
> 8.... A Real Man has Charisma, Passion, & Reliability
> 9....Real Men Protect & Provide
> 
> FrenchFry has an awesome post just before this.
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/66716-what-some-men-here-10.html#post1415225


And just which planet do we find a man with all these traits? Its hard, hell, damn near impossible for a man to have all these traits in equal measure. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holland

bandit.45 said:


> And just which planet do we find a man with all these traits? Its hard, hell, damn near impossible for a man to have all these traits in equal measure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My partner has all these traits and more, they are not in equal measure but IMHO that does not matter.
He, like all humans is not perfect but wow he is amazing and yes has all these traits. 

He is in his 50's if that makes a difference and he readily admits he is a different man now than he was 20 years ago but like many of us he has learnt through his life journey.

Clearly most people mature as they age but the basic core of who they are is set in childhood. Even if they are not all that and more (as above), they just have to be able to recognise what is a good quality v's what is a poor quality and strive to work towards being a better person, that is the important part.


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## Thundarr

bandit.45 said:


> And just which planet do we find a man with all these traits? Its hard, hell, damn near impossible for a man to have all these traits in equal measure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Somewhere between Mars and Venus maybe . Na it's a target and hitting 90% of it 90% of the time is pretty good.


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## AnnieAsh

Deejo said:


> So ... before we get further lost in this wonderful argument, after reading a number of your posts Annie, it seems relatively clear to me that you do WANT your husband. You do love the man. You just want less of the badass.
> 
> That a fair assessment?


I cannot say that I am IN love with him right now. I can say I love him as a person and the father of my children. But romantic loving feelings are missing right now.


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## I Notice The Details

Thundarr said:


> Like Caribbean Man said, anyone who's actually going to be a man has to know what information to use and what to throw away.


:iagree: We all need to keep evolving and learning in our relationships to make them work longterm. I think it is good to be exposed to many different points of views, and then to keep the ones that are TRUE to ourselves. I think TAM really helps us do this.


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## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> 1.... Integrity
> 2....Compassion
> 3.... Confidence
> 4....Self-control
> 5....Perseverance
> 6....Bravery
> 7....Humility
> 8.... A Real Man has Charisma, Passion, & Reliability
> 9....Real Men Protect & Provide


Ok.
Let me get this right.
The ladies on this thread are saying that these are the qualities the look for in a real man. This is what they desire.

So the problem , according to them is that men somehow don't possess theses qualities, and are fooling themselves with this whole " alpha-beta " stuff.

Here's the irony.


1] *FalconKing*. A very witty , intelligent and fun man who I'm sure have most of these qualities, had an extremely bad relationship with a woman who presented herself to him as wanting a man with these qualities.

2]*Thundarr.* Undoubtedly a witty , intelligent man who understands well the dynamics of relationships, had a first wife who he put on a pedestal and she treated him like dirt.

3]*Lon,* a very intuitive guy, extremely patient and respectful towards everyone. Knows exactly whathe wants for himself and his son. Has a stable job and is a very open minded , caring man.Never the player type, respects marriage and has the potential to be a great husband . 
His wife cheated on him and left him.Not only that, her infidelity did a number on his self esteem , just like any other man in his position.

4]*Bandit .45*, A self made, confident man, with all of the above qualities and more. His wife _still _cheated on him.

5]*naga75*. In his own words "..._I was a doormat. Because i thought i was being a "good husband" by showing my love and devotion to my wife in the way i thought "good husbands" did. 
*She took full on advantage of it*_...."


6]*The moderator Dejoo*, one of the most insightful , objective men on the forum, in his own words:
"... _Fact of the matter was, all SHE was interested in was sex ... the prevention of it, and anything that could conceivably lead to it. 
And yes, it can lead to shameful feelings when the person who used to gleefully jump on the hood of a car when you simply gave her a sly look, now rolls her eyes and makes you feel like a pervert for wanting to hold her hand_...."


Sooooo,
Can any woman on this thread honestly say that something is wrong with these men?
Their story is replicated hundreds of times by other men on TAM.
The exact , same script.
What is wrong with the men of TAM is not that they are trying to be Alpha , or that they appreciate and understand Athol's MMSL.
They are trying to help themselves and they have every darn right to do so, given their experiences.

What is wrong with these men is that they have been burnt by women just like yourselves whom they put on a pedestal and would have given their very own lives for.

What is wrong with these men is that they understand the
" doublespeak ." They know there is a huge difference between what some women say they want and what they are sexually attracted to. They know from life's experience that only a rare breed of women. like Simply Amorous and Scarlet Begonias know how to love and appreciate a genuine " nice guy", and treat him with the RESPECT he needs, to keep his self esteem and manhood intact.

What is " wrong" with these men is that they have tried having all of those " good qualities " and more ,to please their women, and still ended up being badly burnt.

In comes the MMSL, NMNG and all the other self help "Alpha " stuff.
The problem is not the books , but the situation that led these
good men to the point of frustration in their lives, where they felt that they needed outside help because they were blindsided by the women they loved.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Was there any Game, MMSL, self-help, dating advice books 50 years ago? Hell, no.

Believe it or not, the western world's new approach of life created PUAs, Married Game afficionados, snake oil salesmen(as you put it.)

There is only a finite amount of time your innocence and naivete can get preyed upon before you become -a snake oil salesman,a calculating predator-(as you put us) yourself.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Was there any Game, MMSL, self-help, dating advice books 50 years ago? Hell, no.
> 
> *Believe it or not, the western world's new approach created PUAs, Married Game afficianados, snake oil salesmen(as you put it.)*


"..._To every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction_..."

" III law of motion." *Sir Lawrence Issac Newton*,
English Physicist, Mathematician and Philosopher.


----------



## Deejo

AnnieAsh said:


> I cannot say that I am IN love with him right now. I can say I love him as a person and the father of my children. But romantic loving feelings are missing right now.


Ah, still hopeful. But not looking for the exit, or a sweeter badass ... just yet.

Frustrating, isn't it? When you want to make things better, and your partner is at best, indifferent.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

bandit.45 said:


> And just which planet do we find a man with all these traits? Its hard, hell, damn near impossible for a man to have all these traits in equal measure.





> *1*.... Integrity
> *2*...Compassion
> *3*...Confidence
> *4*...Self-control
> *5*...Perseverance
> *6*...Bravery
> *7*...Humility
> *8*...A Real Man has Charisma, Passion, & Reliability
> *9*...Real Men Protect & Provide


My husband shines in the majority of those traits but I KNOW he is tipped more







... 

I think everyone could look at those traits, and Identify with some and know where they lack & could step it up....if they are honest with themselves... it's just something to work on, to strive for. 

Where Mine could step it up is.... showing a more outward *Confidence* ... he is not one to talk himself UP to anyone but I know he has confidence in himself because I hear him go on how he can do a better Job than some Jokers (and he does excellent thorough work)... he does LIKE himself....but when he walks into a room, it's not like his "presence" is causing a stir. 

As far as *Bravery*... he'd probably only risk his life for his family, or a loved one. He's been too passive in the past with me....Not any more. 

And *Charisma*... I love him as he is ...but he'd never care to step in the shoes of a Boss or Leader for instance....(which I tend to think of when I hear the term "Charisma")....that's just not his strengths...he's not the "Life of the Party" type...more the guy in the background who throws a dry humored comment now & then, faithful as the morning sun /the Peacemaker type. Very funny but would be more comfortable mentoring "one on one"- not leading a pack of men to victory or anything. 

Other than that...he's ALL of the above...in spades... it's very admirable...why I gush so much ....and you know us women >> IF there is something to complain about, we'll find it !! I am no different, believe me - in fact I am not all that easy to please...I can even be a bit demanding. 



> *Holland said:* He is in his 50's if that makes a difference and he readily admits he is a different man now than he was 20 years ago but like many of us he has learnt through his life journey.


I know it's not the norm ....from reading so many stories here.... but I'd have to say my husband is the same wonderful man NOW that he was when we met 31 yrs ago... if anything, he is very very consistent. He's grown in *Confidence* I'd say as our journey went forth.....but the rest was there then...as it is now. 



> *Caribbean Man said*: They know from life's experience that only a rare breed of women. like Simply Amorous and Scarlet Begonias know how to love and appreciate a genuine " nice guy", and treat him with the RESPECT he needs, to keep his self esteem and manhood intact.


 I've always been a little


----------



## argyle

....what is up with these men? A bunch of things (besides being pigs or exceptionally foolish.)

Many of them are simply frustrated, because, in a much cleaned up translation of my wife's opinion, they come from a culture where women think it is OK to say no to sex with their husbands. It really isn't - and is grounds for divorce, but these men, rather foolishly, stay anyways.*

Others are trying to fit in with the crazy/instincts found in many women. Y"know, the part where fit confident men who ignore women gather tons of admirers. And, honestly, this works well, particularly on crazy women. I've seen successful career women stalk unemployed bisexual slugs living with their married-to-someone else baby mamas simply because they were treated sufficiently badly. This does rather ignore the question of whether or not you should bother with crazy women. I personally suggest finding someone saner, but I am not exactly qualified to throw stones. The truth is that most women do prefer a man who stands up to her, at least occasionally. However, only some women will only date men who make themselves emotionally unavailable.

Still others have failed to maintain limits and have gradually molded themselves according to their wife's requests and then realized that they are no longer the assertive men their wives fell in love with. In practice, they need to create balance - but true balance can be much further towards refusing their wife's requests than their current state. Sometimes much further than their wives would expect. This may be a failing in some men, where they tend towards either a dominant or submissive role and switch in a binary fashion when they start accepting their wife's requests. These men may do better in r/s with some women by defaulting to being difficult,

Lastly, some men are highly dominant aggressive 'people' who rarely compromise and treat women badly. Does this work? Often. Always? No. But more often than the 'timid, beaten down slug' personality succeeds in marriage. 

In the end, it is probably more sensible to find a personal style and limits that work with one's personality and not bother too much about keeping one's wife. The reality is that a lot of people have exaggerated expectations regarding marriage and trying to conform to those expectations is not really workable. If she leaves, so be it, changing more won't help. Women are highly replaceable. Just make sure you have a good prenup.

--Argyle
*...seriously...sex isn't that unpleasant as a rule...if it is...get counseling. Other than that, the...no is not allowed, excepting serious schedule constraints or actual vomiting, is a simple way to reduce the odds of divorce while spending maybe 15 min a day. Seriously, regular denial of sex in a married r/s is not much better than adultery in my opinion.
...if emotional needs aren't being met, consider assertive communication.


----------



## Thundarr

argyle said:


> Lastly, some men are highly dominant aggressive 'people' who rarely compromise and treat women badly. Does this work? Often. Always? No. But more often than the 'timid, beaten down slug' personality succeeds in marriage.


It's mind blowing how simple it is. 
- Don't dish out sh!t and don't take sh!t.
- Don't let you or your spouse be an @ss and if you are apologize and do better.
- Don't live in fear. It it's not what it should be then fix it or move on. Know your boundaries.

Do these things and you respect yourself, you're respected by others. There's no point in being with or around people who think poorly of you and there's certainly no point in being someone you think poorly of. Give that a label.


----------



## goodwife4

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'm copying & pasting my opening post ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as I feel this captures the Perfect Man , with the perfect balance.
> 
> Screw the Poon ...that's the "Players manifesto".



*I would like a husband who was half as good as this sounds*, but alas i do not believe i will ever have this man, and as someone said in another thread "men get married thinking women will NEVER change, and women get married thinking they can change the man"

i would just like respect and someone who put as much thought into the other person as i did or do.

its sad but i would be happy with that


----------



## sandc

goodwife4 said:


> i want this man !!


Sorry hun, I'm married.


----------



## Lon

SimplyAmorous said:


> My husband shines in the majority of those traits but I KNOW he is tipped more
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> I think everyone could look at those traits, and Identify with some and know where they lack & could step it up....if they are honest with themselves... it's just something to work on, to strive for.
> 
> Where Mine could step it up is.... showing a more outward *Confidence* ... he is not one to talk himself UP to anyone but I know he has confidence in himself because I hear him go on how he can do a better Job than some Jokers (and he does excellent thorough work)... he does LIKE himself....but when he walks into a room, it's not like his "presence" is causing a stir.
> 
> As far as *Bravery*... he'd probably only risk his life for his family, or a loved one. He's been too passive in the past with me....Not any more.
> 
> And *Charisma*... I love him as he is ...but he'd never care to step in the shoes of a Boss or Leader for instance....(which I tend to think of when I hear the term "Charisma")....that's just not his strengths...he's not the "Life of the Party" type...more the guy in the background who throws a dry humored comment now & then, faithful as the morning sun /the Peacemaker type. Very funny but would be more comfortable mentoring "one on one"- not leading a pack of men to victory or anything.
> 
> Other than that...he's ALL of the above...in spades... it's very admirable...why I gush so much ....and you know us women >> IF there is something to complain about, we'll find it !! I am no different, believe me - in fact I am not all that easy to please...I can even be a bit demanding.
> 
> I know it's not the norm ....from reading so many stories here.... but I'd have to say my husband is the same wonderful man NOW that he was when we met 31 yrs ago... if anything, he is very very consistent. He's grown in *Confidence* I'd say as our journey went forth.....but the rest was there then...as it is now.
> 
> I've always been a little


SA, I like your post because I relate a lot to your hubby, as for that list of traits

1.... Integrity - yep think I got this largely covered but room for improvement

2...Compassion - have bounds of compassion, but would love to feel more powerful and energized to take action more

3...*Confidence* - well I too have a lot of quiet confidence in myself, but it takes a rare breed to actually look and see it as confidence, most people expect it to look something like how James Bond treats a lady. I lack, no am devoid, of a certain kind of confidence that I think is out there somewhere.

4...Self-control - way too much of this

5...Perseverance - well I have this at my disposal but just don't often have a lot of initiative, when I get in my groove I can be incredibly persistant, but I haven't felt that way in a long while, something I'm working on.

6...Bravery - sure, I'm brave, I can be bold when I need to be but I am so good at avoiding risk in the first place I find myself not having to call upon my bravery very often so it is probably atrophied a lot.

7...Humility - one of the more important things I try to hold.

8...A Real Man has *Charisma*, Passion, & Reliability - I have zero charisma, I have a lot of passion I just can't wear my heart on my sleeve so people never get to experience my passion unless they are willing to look for it... reliability: well I can be deadly reliable but it seems to be in an unused cupboard along with perseverance.

9...Real Men Protect & Provide - my prime directive, I'd like to be better at both, and since I've been so successful at mitigating risk protecting rarely means physical force, but if need be I will expose my teeth.

SA, your H has got the confidence, he doesn't need to work on it just to know it - you are wise enough to not expect him to objectify those people around him, he doesn't need to use others as target practice for his confidence training. Confidence is merely not letting other people hold you back from your goals, and how has your H allowed others to hold him back?


----------



## Caribbean Man

Now I personally don't think that Chateau Heartsie's PUA / player website was designed for any serious , mature , long term relationships. I have said before that its main target is 20-something yr old single males , on the prowl for casual sex and fwb with women so inclined.

But ,Something that puzzles me with this whole discussion about 
Chateau Hartsie's " 16 commandments of poon " and other PUA description of women and how they should be treated is this.

How come some women here who are so offended by it , at the same time say that they have absolutely no problem porn?:scratchhead:
In fact many of them enjoy porn in their solo sessions and with their partner.
Am I missing something here?
If Chateau Heartsie's " 16 commandments of poon " is so degrading to women....
Then how can they enjoy porn, where women's gaping holes and splattered faces are the norm ? What about porn, in their opinion is so * respectful * to women when compared to Chateau Heartsie?

I call BS on that , looks like a clear double standard to me.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Lon said:


> SA, I like your post because I relate a lot to your hubby, as for that list of traits
> ......
> 2...*Compassion *- have bounds of compassion, but would love to feel more powerful and energized to take action more


 I bet your young son will give plenty of opportunity here through the years.











> 4...*Self-control* - way too much of this


 Strange as it may sound, I feel my husband has too much self control also.....he sure did in the past...who says that [email protected]#$% ... I've joked how he needs to loose it more often. 

On Thanksgiving, BIL was pushing Politics on him ... they disagree...I knew his temperature was rising  I started







, not being able to stop because I ENJOY seeing him get mad once in a while (he just doesn't get fired up a lot)...suddenly he's more boisterous -still "controlled " enough...but once he gets wound up...he's pretty darn direct/ articulate & firm, will tell you what for... I just ENJOY seeing it ! I find it amusing sometimes- if it's not directed at me ! 

Once in a while he'll tell a co-worker off...still a little steamed when he gets home....I'll be so proud of him & he'll always say to me...he HATES that he has to get like that... because , once again... people are A-holes .



> 6...Bravery - sure, I'm brave, I can be bold when I need to be but I am so good at
> *avoiding risk* in the first place I find myself not having to call upon my bravery very often so it is probably atrophied a lot.


Neither one of us are big risk takers.. we carefully count the cost of any outcome, if it's not in our favor, we might lay it down. Except for those things worth the risk of course. 



> 7...*Humility* - one of the more important things I try to hold.


 If any of these characteristics are lacking in this world...more need to claim this one. 



> 8...A Real Man has *Charisma*,* Passion*, & Reliability - I have zero charisma, I have a lot of passion I just can't wear my heart on my sleeve so people never get to experience my passion unless they are willing to look for it... reliability: well I can be deadly reliable but it seems to be in an unused cupboard along with perseverance.


 Yeah, I don't think many look for Passion in others... they will notice it when one's living it / expressing it ...but rarely try to unearth it in another. 

I guess that is just talking openly about what you love/ enjoy ... what you excel at, helping another with your skills...if such an opportunity arises. 

One of my favorite quotes is about passion...












> SA, your H has got the *confidence*, he doesn't need to work on it just to know it - you are wise enough to not expect him to objectify those people around him, he doesn't need to use others as target practice for his confidence training.


 I LIKE what you say here...a couple guys at work, they do this regular "target practicing" you speak of here ... I get to hear it all...it's very obvious what is happening... but so true...he never rises to that level, he IS what he is, doesn't feel he has to prove anything..to anyone. I so do dig that. 



> Confidence is merely not letting other people hold you back from your goals, and how has your H allowed others to hold him back?


 I don't believe he has. But really, I think separate, we wouldn't be where we are, it's together...we've always encouraged each other .....building each other up...this helps...a lot.








Lon for taking the time to "dissect" those qualities. :smthumbup:


----------



## Created2Write

I haven't read the whole thread, but I wanted to list a few of the reasons I am so attracted to, and in love with, my husband(in no particular order):

- He's safe, in so many ways. We're compatible spiritually, sexually, politically...I know that my opinions won't be shot down just because they're different. I know that, for the most part, he and I will agree on most things. But he's also safe emotionally, meaning, because we're so compatible, I know that I can express my feelings and he will take them seriously. I won't be criticized or belittled for being sensitive. This sense of safety and security brings trust. 

And, physically, he's safe. I am never afraid to be out with him. In fact, I pity the person who tries to pick a fight with him. He's never lost a fight in his life, and my dad was his Kung Fu instructor so...yeah.  He's very confident, something I have always admired in men and makes them so much more attractive.

- My husband is physically attractive. He takes care of himself, for the most part. He keeps himself clean shaven, showers almost daily, smells nice, works out and eats healthy. I admire the pride he takes in how he looks. 

- My husband works really hard at his job, and is willing to put in as much time and effort as it takes to provide for us. He has big goals and dreams, and some of them are to help make some of my own dreams come true. This tells me that I am an essential part of his life, and that he's including me in his dreams and future plans. It makes my heart melt. 

- He doesn't lie. He doesn't do things to intentionally hurt my feelings. He doesn't flirt with other women. He doesn't even check out other women. He has eyes for me, and me alone. And while I may be cute, I have seen women when we're out on dates who are like...super hot. Even _I'm_ having a hard time not looking, but he never looks. And it's not because I would hit him or make a big deal about it if he did, it's just a choice he's made. One that I utterly respect and makes him even more attractive. 

So, alpha or no, these are some of the things that make my husband so desirable to me.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Created2Write said:


> And, physically, he's safe.* I am never afraid to be out with him. In fact, I pity the person who tries to pick a fight with him.*


Ha ha!
You said that just like my wife!


----------



## ComicBookLady

Somewhat along the same lines as OP, I'm having difficulty with the fact that A LOT of the men's issues brought up here could be solved by learning simple listening/validation techniques (an area most men are not naturally equipped) and then compromise, but they will NOT listen to those suggestions, they instead listen to what most of the other men suggest which is either "Dump that b****" or "She's selfish" or "Kick her out of the house and show her who's boss" type of responses. 

Why do a lot of men think that treating his wife WORSE will solve the problem? I don't understand.  And it's sad to see these situations come and go without the guy at least TRYING to listen to or validate his wife's feelings. They seem to find it easier to end their marriage. Is it pride? If so, is pride so valuable that they'd rather end a family rather than admit they could grow into better people for their wives?

Sorry for the vent!


----------



## Goldmember357

Agreed its absurd.

Basically its a way for some men to cope and they play up this imaginary world. Its really rather sad as its removed from reality. I have no idea where to begin in why these notions of "alpha" are negative. 

That's why I avoid the men's section.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hawx20

humanbecoming said:


> Exactly. And real men don't play games. Those are for little boys out to make their wee wees feel good for a few minutes.
> 
> A man who is real husband material knows a relationship is give and take, and gives 100% of what's needed, to a woman who likewise gives 100% of herself. Anything less is dysfunction.




This is completely true.....in a perfect world. Most men, like myself, are here because we are not completely happy in our marriage. There are some of us who are here because we dont play games, we are husband material, and we give 100% to our wife and kids, and its just not enough.

You want to know what our reward is? Very little sex, being totally unappreciated, and feeling unloved. 

I always have said that its hard to be treated great in a relationship. Its easy to be treated like crap. When you are treated like crap by your SO, most people work like hell to get that person to love them. On the flip side, when you are treated the way every woman says they want to be treated, its so easy to let that go to your head. When they are bad to you, you only have one direction to look forward to....UP. When you are treated great, you are given free reign to do whatever and most people cant handle that.

You sound like a woman who can handle it and appreciates a husbands effort to be the best man/husband/father he can be. Unfortunately for many of us men here, we do not have a wife like you. Hell, I couldnt care less if i'm alpha, beta, omega whatever....all i know is i gotta do what i gotta do. If that means being alpha, then i'll do it. Some women, though they will never admit it or even know it, want alpha men. Beta is boring. A man who is boring has her wifes legs closed, her heart is questioning her love, and her mind wanders to someone else.

All you women who are saying we live in a fantasy world dont know what you are talking about. Everything is relative to your situation. Some of you women have fantastic husbands and the better he is to you, the better you are to him. You are lucky people. Some of us though, have the opposite. The better we are, the less we are shown that we are loved.

So in closing, you wonder what is up with some men here. The answer is not every woman is like you. Dont judge a man when you havent walked in his shoes. Please understand that not every woman thinks they way some of you do. If every woman loved their husbands for being the best man/husband/father they could be and showed them that love everyday.....well, sites like this wouldnt have very many members. All I know is, I sure as hell wouldnt be here.

For proof of what I say, let me guide you to this thread. It pretty much explains my post.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/66504-husband-claims-i-am-not-affectionate.html


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## SimplyAmorous

> *Hawx20 said*: You sound like a woman who can handle it and appreciates a husbands effort to be the best man/husband/father he can be. Unfortunately for many of us men here, we do not have a wife like you.


 I agree with all you say in your Post Hawx20, but Humanbecoming is a man. I am one of the fewer women on here that prefers Beta over Alpha (probably because an Alpha & me would fight too much)... I know what works for ME. 

I hate to see Good men mistreated, I think every man should leave those women in the dust, sometimes they pine for Mr Alpha till they get a taste of how he is and will miss what she had....cases of that too...when we take another for granted, it is an ugly thing. I am even guilty in the past to some degree, but it was never all that bad, from his own admission. 

Here is a good thread that might help you - turn the tables just a little >>


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## hawx20

LOL sorry, just assumed and I am a little unhappy about my wife this morning so I vented.

I really didnt give a crap about being alpha or beta in my life. I am a strong, caring, and intelligent man. I do what I feel is right and treat my family the best I can. 

I wish I didnt feel like I had to play games or be a domineering man to get my wife to respond more to me. Truth is, the less I show my wife, the more she responds. The more I show I want her, the less she responds. 

That was my whole point. Its relative to your own situation. In my mind, if a man does everything hes supposed to in a marriage, he should be rewarded with her love. Unfortunately for me and others, it doesnt work out that way.


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## Caribbean Man

hawx20 said:


> *You want to know what our reward is? Very little sex, being totally unappreciated, and feeling unloved. *


:iagree:

That's the point of this whole Alpha/ Beta debate.
If that " crazy " type of dynamic didn't exist in marriages then husbands and men would not have to react or pretend to be
"Alpha " or whatever in order to get their needs met.
" _Craziness_ " cannot comprehend and doesn't respond to logic.

Plain and simple.

There are men who work all day , come home and help with the house work, put their wives needs first whist their basic needs such as sex and intimacy are being met with scorn from these women. They treat their husbands worse than dogs.

It does not exist in our marriage, but I think it is dishonest to say that it does not exist and that something is wrong with men in those situations if they decide to try WHATEVER , sometimes out of desperation, to change the dynamics and fix the situation.

BTW: _Humanbecoming is a male._


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## Caribbean Man

hawx20 said:


> *In my mind, if a man does everything hes supposed to in a marriage, he should be rewarded with her love. Unfortunately for me and QUITE A LOT OF OTHER MEN , it doesnt work out that way.*


There.
I fixed it for you!


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## thegatewalker

*Re: Re: What is it with some of the men here?*



humanbecoming said:


> Yes, yes, I'm glad you do not have a woman like me. I mean, the nightly coin toss alone to see who is on top would be just too darn stressful, ya know?


Me and gaia just fight about it who ever has the energy can be on top. Glad some one thinks very highly of you.


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## thegatewalker

*Re: Re: What is it with some of the men here?*



Caribbean Man said:


> :
> BTW: _Humanbecoming is a male._


Outch


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## Gaia

thegatewalker said:


> Me and gaia just fight about it who ever has the energy can be on top. Glad some one thinks very highly of you.


To clarify.... This fightingbconsists of playful biting, wrestling, ect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

humanbecoming said:


> Yes, yes, I'm glad you do not have a woman like me. I mean, the nightly coin toss alone to see who is on top would be just too darn stressful, ya know?



I told you your posts were feminine!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mildlyperplexed

There should be a male/female symbol next to the name. Its really hard to tell if the poster is a man or woman sometimes. People online often mistake me for a man for some reason.


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## Shadow_Nirvana

mildlyperplexed said:


> People online often mistake me for a man for some reason.


Is that why you became mildlyperplexed?


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## Caribbean Man

Gaia said:


> .... This fightingbconsists of playful biting, wrestling, ect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't want to hijack the thread,
But this sound like something for the 
" _http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/65992-objectification-dominance-being-man.html_" thread....:rofl:


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## Gaia

Caribbean Man said:


> Don't want to hijack the thread,
> But this sound like something for the
> " _objectification, dominance and being a man_" thread....


:rofl: or something in the sex forum.... Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Created2Write

I will say this: if my husband was a total doormat, and let me walk all over him, he wouldn't be any of the things I listed in my post of why I love him and find him so desirable, and that would cause me to drastically lose respect for him. And, personally, I don't see a man bettering himself and enforcing boundaries within his relationship as treating his wife _worse_. In the cases I have seen here, the wife(from the husband's perspective of course) is usually completely irrational when it comes to her expectations and demands, and is usually mean and overbearing in how she treats him. In such a case I absolutely think it's imperative that the husband find a sense of inner strength in learning to stand up for himself, and find happiness and confidence in who he is. Not only is that better for him, but it IS better for her. 

Now, the flirting with other women to "up his sex rank" is absurd and, frankly, shallow. My husband doesn't have to flirt with other women to "up" his sex rank. If he went from being a doormat to being a confident man, from being a slob to taking care of his appearance, from gaining weight to losing it, that _alone_ would up his sex rank. I watch the women in the places we go. He gets checked out a lot. He doesn't need to flirt to prove to me that other women would want him. 

As for helping with the chores...that's a personal preference, imo. If the man is helping with the chores out of his own choice, then I don't think there's anything beta about that. If he's doing it just to get his wife to stop nagging, then he needs to say no and stick to that until he can say yes of his own accord. 

And, just to add, I would say everything here about a woman who was being a doormat too.


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## mildlyperplexed

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Is that why you became mildlyperplexed?


No, it was the time I was organizing an attack (in a pc game) on teamspeak and someone accused me of being a child because women don't play games XD

I thought my husband was actually going to wet himself laughing!


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## ChiGirl

To me this whole alpha thing is how a man approaches his family and wife, and the issues that come up in a marriage.

My STBX turned into a little coward and sheep after we got married.. while also going out all night etc. It was an insecurity thing that ruined our marriage.

Being a man to me is opening doors, taking care of the major things together (and not hiding out while your wife pays the bills), having integrity, and in general being in a 50/50 relationship.


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## argyle

...that's definitely the important part of being a man. I tend to separate that part from being an 'alpha' - which I equate more to behavioral stuff for wolves - basically learning how to assert dominance. I think that 'alpha' is a loaded term - and that too many women confuse 'alpha' with 'ideal man'. Then they start listening to these forums and complain that 'no real alpha' would do XYZ because their husband doesn't.

I think that it is better to separate being an alpha from being a good man. My impression is that being a good man (honest, competent, loyal, assertive blah) is a good thing in many marriages. Women who have a problem with a man of poor character have my deepest sympathies. Personally, I class standing up to your wife in the 'being a man' category. OTOH, screaming arguments can fit into the alpha box, depending on the woman. It is important for men to hold themselves to being good men.

However, even though, realistically...some of the 'alpha' stuff in the forums really is based around being a jerk...because jerks tend to be dominant...that stuff works on some women. Some of my ancestors were complete jerks to their wives and mistresses - and their marriages worked. 

Some fraction of the female human race absolutely needs to feel dominated in one way or another to be attracted to a man. For some, that's being ignored or cheated on, for others...ordered around, or slapped around, or threatened, or left to do the housework. This isn't surprising. By the way, even if you're perfectly assertive and take no 'sh*t', most of these women will ignore you unless you conform to their needs.

Oh well, as long as her need isn't inherently destructive, why worry - s'not so much worse than foot fetishes. Now, some women tend to see men who aren't providing their particular need as inherently broken and wrong. Those women might be better off as just seeing those men as sexually incompatible. They may be great husbands - just not particularly stimulating. The men may be wise to look at their wives under the assumption that their wives may have an odd fetish or two and figure out which behaviors actually seem to help. Truthfully, my gut instinct for successful 'alpha application' involves finding out her parent's dynamic and duplicating it.*

OTOH, people who think there's a single formula to applying dominance to all marriages or that alphas are necessarily ideal husbands are just wrong. Most women won't tolerate being cheated on. A fair number will dump calm, quiet, and loving engineers for unemployed bisexual slugs who refuse to admit that they're sleeping together. (Woman...you aren't a girlfriend...I won't even be seen with you because a potential girlfriend/boyfriend might be turned away if you're around me. -so she follows him across the country, dumps the successful prospective fiancee...and stalks him at his baby-mama's.)

--Argyle
*As my wife keeps telling me, and as her father did with her mother, that would involve punches. Words don't work. Neither do actions. I'll pass. I don't need to be her perfect husband.


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## FalconKing

Hey Annie I got this from another thread:



AnnieAsh said:


> Ummm...ok...I don't know why everyone jumps to the awful conclusions they jump to.
> 
> JD, if it is any consolation, during my pregnancies I could not STAND for my husband to kiss me on the mouth, lick or suck my nipples, or finger me. There was something about his scent and the feeling of his mouth and I would literally vomit from a French kiss. Then, one day his father came to give me a hug and a kiss on the cheek and boom! I threw up again. Men just ugh turned my stomach while I was pregnant. Then I gave birth and it went away almost instantly. It was bizarre...........


You think this may have something to do with your husband's ALPHA attitude towards you? Just a thought.


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## AnnieAsh

FalconKing said:


> Hey Annie I got this from another thread:
> 
> 
> 
> You think this may have something to do with your husband's ALPHA attitude towards you? Just a thought.


Falcon, huh? My pregnancy hormones? From YEARS ago? When I came to him in tears because I was so confused? When HE assured ME that it was temporary and that the same thing happened to his sister (she could not stand the feeling of stubble on her skin, drove her insane.)


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## *LittleDeer*

I'm with created2write

And if my man was flirting with other women it would show me he lacked character and judgement and wasn't very confident, as flirting us usually about boosting sexual confidence. That is a total turn off to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FalconKing

AnnieAsh said:


> Falcon, huh? My pregnancy hormones? From YEARS ago? When I came to him in tears because I was so confused? When HE assured ME that it was temporary and that the same thing happened to his sister (she could not stand the feeling of stubble on her skin, drove her insane.)


It still could have hurt him though. It's just something to think about. In order for something like that not to hurt you, you have to be bigger than that and disconnect emotionally. It's hard to re-engage. Especially if it happens multiple times. If that happen to me, something definitely in my marriage would die. You minimize because if a woman is already having an emotional and difficult pregnancy the last thing you want to do bring up is your needs. So you don't make a big deal out of it, so as to not pressure her. Then she too may not think if it as a big deal. But then you are stuck. Because you minimized all of that rejection and disgust someone has showed you. If you do ever bring it up it just seems petty. So you just tuck it away and disconnect a little bit and numb yourself. But this most obviously has an effect on the marriage. All speculation but this would have really bothered me.


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## Quantmflux

Here is the thing though... If you're a guy being treated like a doormat by a woman who doesn't seem to care, can that *really* be truly fixed by trying to be something you're not and play acting these odd games? Especially if, as women say time and again, they aren't all wired to respond the same way?

I mean I suppose if the problem really is that the woman just wants some "me Tarzan!" action then it might work, but wouldn't/shouldn't you already know that about her? And can you really keep it up forever? And would she even really accept it coming from a doormat?

If I walk up to the biggest guy I know and suddenly "act tough" he isn't going to say "oh man... Yeah you ARE a badass!" unless it was at gunpoint because clearly badass isn't who I am.

These women know what they married. Either it was some kind of bait and switch and you're almost surely better off leaving, or something has gone wrong that will take much more than simple playbook psychology to fix.


----------



## AnnieAsh

FalconKing said:


> It still could have hurt him though. It's just something to think about. In order for something like that not to hurt you, you have to be bigger than that and disconnect emotionally. It's hard to re-engage. Especially if it happens multiple times. If that happen to me, something definitely in my marriage would die. You minimize because if a woman is already having an emotional and difficult pregnancy the last thing you want to do bring up is your needs. So you don't make a big deal out of it, so as to not pressure her. Then she too may not think if it as a big deal. But then you are stuck. Because you minimized all of that rejection and disgust someone has showed you. If you do ever bring it up it just seems petty. So you just tuck it away and disconnect a little bit and numb yourself. But this most obviously has an effect on the marriage. All speculation but this would have really bothered me.


You sound like a very physically affectionate man, who has a good grasp on his feelings  

Part of the reason I am on this site is because my husband is NOT physically affectionate. For a good part of the marriage, I was content to initiate all the physical affection outside of the bedroom because he never rejected me. Then, he got wrapped up in work and just kinda...stopped any non-sexual affection, started telling me I was like a teenager. 

This started happening when the youngest was just out of toddlerhood so...maybe 2 to 3 years ago. Then I stopped initiating and well...here we are.

I know his parents were not physically affectionate when they were together. None of his siblings can recall them ever groping each other playfully or kissing. Maybe since that was his model, that's what he expected in his own marriage.


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## Caribbean Man

AnnieAsh said:


> Part of the reason I am on this site is because my husband is NOT physically affectionate. For a good part of the marriage, I was content to initiate all the physical affection outside of the bedroom because he never rejected me. Then, he got wrapped up in work and just kinda...stopped any non-sexual affection, started telling me I was like a teenager.
> 
> This started happening when the youngest was just out of toddlerhood so...maybe 2 to 3 years ago. Then I stopped initiating and well...here we are.
> 
> I know his parents were not physically affectionate when they were together. None of his siblings can recall them ever groping each other playfully or kissing. Maybe since that was his model, that's what he expected in his own marriage.


If you husband does not respect you, does not show affection ,ignores you , spends too much time on work and generally treats you badly , then absolutely none of this NMNG , MMSL or the " Man up Alpha concept " can apply to your situation ,and should be used to bring balance or change that dynamic. That would be like giving a hyperactive child candy, expecting in order to keep them still .

You might be better off applying these concepts to yourself ,because you are the one he is treating like a doormat.
If he doesn't think he has a problem because that's the way he was conditioned from a child , then counseling may be in order for him.

Was he this way before you married him?
Did you ,like some women ,marry him because you thought you would be able to change that part of him?
I'm not saying the fault is yours. Clearly , this is HIS problem . However , clearly his treatment has affected you negatively so you need to work on you., so that whatever the outcome , you would no longer tolerate disrespect and abuse from him or any other person.

Time to " Man up ", and stop accepting his behavior.


----------



## Thundarr

Quantmflux said:


> I mean I suppose if the problem really is that the woman just wants some "me Tarzan!" action then it might work, but wouldn't/shouldn't you already know that about her? And can you really keep it up forever? And would she even really accept it coming from a doormat?
> 
> If I walk up to the biggest guy I know and suddenly "act tough" he isn't going to say "oh man... Yeah you ARE a badass!" unless it was at gunpoint because clearly badass isn't who I am.
> 
> These women know what they married. Either it was some kind of bait and switch and you're almost surely better off leaving, or something has gone wrong that will take much more than simple playbook psychology to fix.


Wonder about the success rate when doormat converts to anything else midstream. It can't be high. I'd say more doormats hit bottom (get cheated on and left) before they pick up the pieces and reassemble themselves into something with a backbone.


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## Caribbean Man

Thundarr said:


> Wonder about the success rate when doormat converts to anything else midstream. It can't be high. I'd say more doormats hit bottom (get cheated on and left) before they pick up the pieces and reassemble themselves into something with a backbone.


And you are quite correct.
So the idea behind this " alpha" concept if for that doormat to fix himself / herself .
Whether or not the spouse decides to change their behaviour towards them, because of it, is inconsequential.
What matters is that they stop being a doormat, demand respect and move on with their lives so that in future relationships, they would not tolerate any type of abuse.
Ending an abusive relationship does not fix being a doormat.
But looking inside and changing obsequious , servile, self depreciating behavioural traits and replacing them with more dominant , assertive ones, surely does.

Simply telling a doormat to " man up" or " have some self respect" cannot work because if hey knew how to do that, they would not have been a doormat in the first place.
Nobody decides they want to be a doormat in a relationship. They want to please their partners and have their partners / people look at them in a certain way.So they do nice stuff and put their needs last.
Their needs never gets met and they accept that they are lesser in the relationship so they accept lesser than optimum treatment.
The abusive spouse often times have no idea of how hurt and emotionally unfulfilled the doormat is.
The doormat needs to take drastic action in an attempt to change themselves and the dynamics of the relationship.


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## Tall Average Guy

Quantmflux said:


> Here is the thing though... If you're a guy being treated like a doormat by a woman who doesn't seem to care, can that *really* be truly fixed by trying to be something you're not and play acting these odd games? Especially if, as women say time and again, they aren't all wired to respond the same way?


That assumes that a person cannot change. Perhaps that is true, but I see no reason not to try. Further, what you call games is often about setting boundaries. So a man may need to practice in the beginning to make a real change. Fake til you make it if you will. 

That cannot be a bad result, regardless of how women are wired.


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## FalconKing

Thundarr said:


> Wonder about the success rate when doormat converts to anything else midstream. It can't be high. I'd say more doormats hit bottom (get cheated on and left) before they pick up the pieces and reassemble themselves into something with a backbone.


Unfortunately, I think it's usually like this. Something has to be broken all the way down before it can reassemble into something else.


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## Caribbean Man

Tall Average Guy said:


> * Further, what you call games is often about setting boundaries .*


:iagree:

Quite a lot of people miss that pertinent point in the whole debate.

To assume that because a person has been a doormat for his entire marriage he/she cannot change and set proprer personal boundaries is a bit simplistic.

Every single day my wife is a different woman, and I have to respond to these changes. The man I was 18 years ago when we got married is no longer around. If he was she would probably left him a long while ago, because she too has grown tremendously.
Can it be that she's " playing games?"
Can it be that I'm " playing games?"
Can it be that we're both fooling ourselves?
Whatever it is, ITS WORKING.
Human beings are quite capable of adaptation and change, it is what caused us to survive when other species went extinct.


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## Wazza

There is a lot in this thread.

Totally agree with Annie's original point that unbridled so-called alpha is pointless. Haven't felt the need to read MMSL or NMMNG, but from what others report the basic concept of them seems sound. 

Thing is, I want my wife to have a relationship with ME, not with some fantasy of what I could have been. And while I work on myself, the fundamentals of who I am have mostly not changed all my adult life. I have become more confident and assertive, but I think that is maturity. I guess you could say it is more alpha in a sense, but I cringe at the thought of that.

Also, the grass often looks greener on the other side. So however good my wife is, she is not perfect, and at times I am going to see people with qualities I wish my wife had, and be attracted to them. I still want what my wife has, but I already have it so it's easy to take it for granted and obsess about what I don't have. So for someone with an alpha husband the beta thing needs focus because that is what she is missing. For someone with a beta husband, it's the alpha that needs work.

For me at that point, marriage becomes an act of will to honour the commitment that was made. I do so happily, because I remember what it felt like to think I had lost my wife when she had the affair. Maybe I had to go through that near death experience, and so did she, to appreciate what we really have, and how much worse off I would be without it.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Hiya Wazza! Thanks for posting!


----------



## MEM2020

AG,
I howled when I got to the real story below. 

All new posters should be greeted with:
- welcome, glad you are here and hope that as a group, we can help you
- we have some questions that we typically ask as they provide more context and allow us to make comments and observations that are relevant to your situation 

For example: 
How did things start, when did they get tough? 

What positive things do you each bring to the marriage?
What negative things do each of you contribute?

If things have been tough for a while, what have you done so far to address them?
Talked to spouse, read books, marriage counseling MC or individual counseling IC.

Perhaps the member could then share their own example, or reference a book that helped them. 




QUOTE=anotherguy;1410854]Shall I defend the alpha thing? Me.. perhaps the biggest outspoken critic of it? Annointed 'white knight' and 'beta' according to the apostles of the creed, game, 180, primer, 'laid like tile', MAP and such?

--

The first thing is, I have little doubt that it can work when applied sensibly to a broken and dysfunctional relationship - with sensible people. And it isnt about being an a$$wipe, though it can seem that way when trying to make a point to someone that 'hasnt seen the light'. I have read a fair amount of it just to know what I am talking about and a good amount of ithis is juvenile and jargon-filled nonsense - but there are sensible things in there too such as fostering friendships and improving yourself. This really is for people with severe relationship problems, self esteem issues - and it is not, despite the insistance of its adherents - a recipe to shoot for in a healthy relationship - and my belief is that is should not be advised when there are other significant issues going on. A hallmark, by the way of much of the self help tripe of all stripes - is embedding a kernel of truth in a larger pseudo-intellectual framework of crap - often obscured by made up 'language' to describe it. (See, 'who moved my cheese', 'the secret', 'the rules of the game', 'he THINKS hes not into you', etc etc.. ad nauseum...)

My problem are the dedicated accolytes of these get laid tactics that whip it out at every opportunity - eager to help. 

1st post: "My wife sits on the couch with a spoon and a gallon of ice cream, the house is a mess except when I clean it, and we havent had sex in 6 months."

2nd Post: "Your alpha/beta is out of balance. Go Read MMSL. Formulate a plan and come back and we can talk about when to reveal the MAP to her. Not yet. I hear you brother. Its not hard, you just need to stop being a doormat. I have lived it and this works."

3rd Post: "OK! I looked, and I think you guys are onto something. I am 19 and after the kid came (guess I really SHOULD have worn a condom huh?) she was always, like, complaining, and like 'that hurts' (something about a 3rd degree episiotomy?). Our baby is 7 months old now and all she says is that she it 'tired' I mean normal parents have sex with kids tright? She also complains alot like when I lost my job I had a chance to play alot of online games and all she does now is eat ice cream and get fat. I havent smoked pot in almost 2 months now, mostly because we are broke and we need formula, but last time I tried to have sex she simply said 'no'. I am almost at the end of my rope. I asked her when she was going to go back to work and now she is giving me the silent treatment. I am getting nowhere with her."

4th post: "Stop it with the alpha nonsense, it is pure BS."

5th Post: "Here comes Mr. Beta again. Clearly - the OP needs to ensure his wife understands the consequences of not meeting his needs, and he has to follow through on his promises. Get out of the house, get his life in order. If she asks why simply look her in the eye and state your case and stand firm. If she doesnt hold up her end of the deal - leave. This isnt difficult or complicated. Yeah, they have other issues - but 6 months without sex is NOT normal."

Silly exaggeration right? Not by much. When you see this kind of 'advice' - you just hate to see someone possibly making a bad situation worse - and any attempt to root out the real situation is called out as a waste of time. 

really - I should just stay away.. and left the board a couple months ago for that very reason and took a peek last week. (oops). Its just some stupid internet forum - but unfortunately it is no game when real lives and families are involved. *sigh*. I do think the moderators, who also push this unfortunately - do rarely inject a little balance - though perhaps not frequently enough for my liking.

Again - the people who push it have used it with some success. That means 1) they had a really screwed up relationship maybe still do, and 2) It 'worked' for them whatever that means to them. Those points do not automatically make it an effective prescription for others in all cases, sorry.

God I'm such an insufferable, pontificating, self righeous windbag. I hope my posts dont get as bad as 'Simply Amorous'.  (That was a joke)

Oh... is this the womens room? Gads I went in the wrong restroom too? THIS is shaping up to be a disaster.[/QUOTE]


----------



## anony2

I am a female and I read No More Mr. Nice Guy AFTER my husband had gotten it, read it, and recognized some of the symptoms that it covers in the book in me. I loved the book. I would recommend it to every man AND woman out there. 

I have not read MMSL though, but my husband has it. I recommend reading ANY book that you think MIGHT help. Even if it is books that you normally do not think would help...take what you want and leave the rest.


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## Created2Write

anony2 said:


> I am a female and I read No More Mr. Nice Guy AFTER my husband had gotten it, read it, and recognized some of the symptoms that it covers in the book in me. I loved the book. I would recommend it to every man AND woman out there.
> 
> I have not read MMSL though, but my husband has it. I recommend reading ANY book that you think MIGHT help. Even if it is books that you normally do not think would help...take what you want and leave the rest.


I agree.


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## Fledgling

Still new to the boards and have skimmed through this thread and had a couple of thoughts. There is alot of talk about being a doormat. This seems to imply that a spouse let's his/her partner have their way all the time to avoid drama. However I honestly think that often times we don't have strong feelings on a matter either way and just let the other spouse take the lead. Then, when the marriage hits the skids we look back at all the times we let the spouse take the lead, and become resentful that our needs suddenly weren't met when in actuality, at the time, we just didn't care enough (or weren't knowledgable enough) to give an opinion that our husband/wife would have been happy to compromise on. We may develop an opinion later on, but that doesn't mean we started out with one. That's not being a doomat or that your spouse steamrolls you..

Then there's the whole "work on yourself" aspect That's great to an extent. But alot of people will work on themselves at the expense of the marriage. What's your motive in working on yourself? To increase your personal happiness independent of your spouse, or to work on yourself in a way that strengthens your marriage by acknowledging your faults (which by default would raise your happiness with your marriage)? As someone in another thread said alot of these roadmaps, plans, and assertiveness coaching involve alot of power plays that actually put more of an onus on your spouse than they do upon you.


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## FalconKing

MEM11363 said:


> AG,
> I howled when I got to the real story below.
> 
> All new posters should be greeted with:
> - welcome, glad you are here and hope that as a group, we can help you
> - we have some questions that we typically ask as they provide more context and allow us to make comments and observations that are relevant to your situation
> 
> For example:
> How did things start, when did they get tough?
> 
> What positive things do you each bring to the marriage?
> What negative things do each of you contribute?
> 
> If things have been tough for a while, what have you done so far to address them?
> Talked to spouse, read books, marriage counseling MC or individual counseling IC.
> 
> Perhaps the member could then share their own example, or reference a book that helped them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anotherguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shall I defend the alpha thing? Me.. perhaps the biggest outspoken critic of it? Annointed 'white knight' and 'beta' according to the apostles of the creed, game, 180, primer, 'laid like tile', MAP and such?
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> The first thing is, I have little doubt that it can work when applied sensibly to a broken and dysfunctional relationship - with sensible people. And it isnt about being an a$$wipe, though it can seem that way when trying to make a point to someone that 'hasnt seen the light'. I have read a fair amount of it just to know what I am talking about and a good amount of ithis is juvenile and jargon-filled nonsense - but there are sensible things in there too such as fostering friendships and improving yourself. This really is for people with severe relationship problems, self esteem issues - and it is not, despite the insistance of its adherents - a recipe to shoot for in a healthy relationship - and my belief is that is should not be advised when there are other significant issues going on. A hallmark, by the way of much of the self help tripe of all stripes - is embedding a kernel of truth in a larger pseudo-intellectual framework of crap - often obscured by made up 'language' to describe it. (See, 'who moved my cheese', 'the secret', 'the rules of the game', 'he THINKS hes not into you', etc etc.. ad nauseum...)
> 
> My problem are the dedicated accolytes of these get laid tactics that whip it out at every opportunity - eager to help.
> 
> 1st post: "My wife sits on the couch with a spoon and a gallon of ice cream, the house is a mess except when I clean it, and we havent had sex in 6 months."
> 
> 2nd Post: "Your alpha/beta is out of balance. Go Read MMSL. Formulate a plan and come back and we can talk about when to reveal the MAP to her. Not yet. I hear you brother. Its not hard, you just need to stop being a doormat. I have lived it and this works."
> 
> 3rd Post: "OK! I looked, and I think you guys are onto something. I am 19 and after the kid came (guess I really SHOULD have worn a condom huh?) she was always, like, complaining, and like 'that hurts' (something about a 3rd degree episiotomy?). Our baby is 7 months old now and all she says is that she it 'tired' I mean normal parents have sex with kids tright? She also complains alot like when I lost my job I had a chance to play alot of online games and all she does now is eat ice cream and get fat. I havent smoked pot in almost 2 months now, mostly because we are broke and we need formula, but last time I tried to have sex she simply said 'no'. I am almost at the end of my rope. I asked her when she was going to go back to work and now she is giving me the silent treatment. I am getting nowhere with her."
> 
> 4th post: "Stop it with the alpha nonsense, it is pure BS."
> 
> 5th Post: "Here comes Mr. Beta again. Clearly - the OP needs to ensure his wife understands the consequences of not meeting his needs, and he has to follow through on his promises. Get out of the house, get his life in order. If she asks why simply look her in the eye and state your case and stand firm. If she doesnt hold up her end of the deal - leave. This isnt difficult or complicated. Yeah, they have other issues - but 6 months without sex is NOT normal."
> 
> Silly exaggeration right? Not by much. When you see this kind of 'advice' - you just hate to see someone possibly making a bad situation worse - and any attempt to root out the real situation is called out as a waste of time.
> 
> really - I should just stay away.. and left the board a couple months ago for that very reason and took a peek last week. (oops). Its just some stupid internet forum - but unfortunately it is no game when real lives and families are involved. *sigh*. I do think the moderators, who also push this unfortunately - do rarely inject a little balance - though perhaps not frequently enough for my liking.
> 
> Again - the people who push it have used it with some success. That means 1) they had a really screwed up relationship maybe still do, and 2) It 'worked' for them whatever that means to them. Those points do not automatically make it an effective prescription for others in all cases, sorry.
> 
> God I'm such an insufferable, pontificating, self righeous windbag. I hope my posts dont get as bad as 'Simply Amorous'.  (That was a joke)
> 
> Oh... is this the womens room? Gads I went in the wrong restroom too? THIS is shaping up to be a disaster.
Click to expand...

I think stuff happens all the time. But it just makes me made that people shift blame from those involve in their marriage to an author. But honestly, I think it goes back to people getting married for the wrong reasons a lot of times. 

If you were in a relationship where you did all the heavy lifting, marriage is not going to make the taker in the relationship suddenly become a giver. Why would it? You gave them the ultimate reward by legally and spiritually promising to be by their side for the rest of your life. There is nothing to change back to normal or healthy because it was never really that. One of my friends has only be married for a year. His now wife was a woman he met at a club and it evolved from casual sex into a relationship. She already has a kid. One that she had from a one night stand. They moved in together and he started paying her car note. They fought about sex because once she got comfortable in the relationship she no longer wanted to have it. A few of us think she was cheating on him for a while. They broke off the engagement twice because she would have these fits of rage. We did an intervention and told him that marrying her was a big mistake. He defended her to us and then married her anyway. At the wedding she didn't even look at him. She just wanted to take pictures and have everyone see how beautiful she was. They are having problems now. Who would've guessed that? Every time he complains about his marriage I just want to smack him side his head. If he came to this forum. The advice given here would cause him to get a divorce. Because why would she change if all he has done is reward her behavior? And he doesn't want to get a divorce because people like that have to prove to themselves that even in the face of those odds, being married was the best thing they could do and hence they see it as special. Oh and she is pregnant. 

BTW my body is 6'2 and ripped. He played division 1 college ball. But somehow he convinced himself it was time to get married being that he was almost 30. So she came along and there ya go.


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## MEM2020

I believe most people have a very wide potential range of behavior from very good to pretty bad. 

I certainly believe that is true of my wife.

Very simple example. My wife's default behavior is in appropriately controlling. We watch a pilot show together and I like it and she doesn't. Sometimes she will do this routine where she says 'you don't really like that show do you?' 

Because if you hooked her to a polygraph she doesn't want ME to watch it. 

Early in our marriage I would get angry and we would fit. 

Now I just flip the polarity of the discussion. Instead of responding to her request for me to 'agree that it is not a good show, and therefore choose not to watch it', I slide in humor mode and go down two tracks:
- I talk about my favorite scenes from the pilot and ask for her input and
- I say things like 'the show is so much better now then the pilot, you should catch up'

This is all done with a light smile and a bit more flair than a normal convo. 

Note: in reverse absolutely none of this happens. If she likes a show that I don't, I tell her I am glad she found a show she likes. 




[ QUOTE=MEM11363;1431808]AG,
I howled when I got to the real story below. 

All new posters should be greeted with:
- welcome, glad you are here and hope that as a group, we can help you
- we have some questions that we typically ask as they provide more context and allow us to make comments and observations that are relevant to your situation 

For example: 
How did things start, when did they get tough? 

What positive things do you each bring to the marriage?
What negative things do each of you contribute?

If things have been tough for a while, what have you done so far to address them?
Talked to spouse, read books, marriage counseling MC or individual counseling IC.

Perhaps the member could then share their own example, or reference a book that helped them. 




QUOTE=anotherguy;1410854]Shall I defend the alpha thing? Me.. perhaps the biggest outspoken critic of it? Annointed 'white knight' and 'beta' according to the apostles of the creed, game, 180, primer, 'laid like tile', MAP and such?

--

The first thing is, I have little doubt that it can work when applied sensibly to a broken and dysfunctional relationship - with sensible people. And it isnt about being an a$$wipe, though it can seem that way when trying to make a point to someone that 'hasnt seen the light'. I have read a fair amount of it just to know what I am talking about and a good amount of ithis is juvenile and jargon-filled nonsense - but there are sensible things in there too such as fostering friendships and improving yourself. This really is for people with severe relationship problems, self esteem issues - and it is not, despite the insistance of its adherents - a recipe to shoot for in a healthy relationship - and my belief is that is should not be advised when there are other significant issues going on. A hallmark, by the way of much of the self help tripe of all stripes - is embedding a kernel of truth in a larger pseudo-intellectual framework of crap - often obscured by made up 'language' to describe it. (See, 'who moved my cheese', 'the secret', 'the rules of the game', 'he THINKS hes not into you', etc etc.. ad nauseum...)

My problem are the dedicated accolytes of these get laid tactics that whip it out at every opportunity - eager to help. 

1st post: "My wife sits on the couch with a spoon and a gallon of ice cream, the house is a mess except when I clean it, and we havent had sex in 6 months."

2nd Post: "Your alpha/beta is out of balance. Go Read MMSL. Formulate a plan and come back and we can talk about when to reveal the MAP to her. Not yet. I hear you brother. Its not hard, you just need to stop being a doormat. I have lived it and this works."

3rd Post: "OK! I looked, and I think you guys are onto something. I am 19 and after the kid came (guess I really SHOULD have worn a condom huh?) she was always, like, complaining, and like 'that hurts' (something about a 3rd degree episiotomy?). Our baby is 7 months old now and all she says is that she it 'tired' I mean normal parents have sex with kids tright? She also complains alot like when I lost my job I had a chance to play alot of online games and all she does now is eat ice cream and get fat. I havent smoked pot in almost 2 months now, mostly because we are broke and we need formula, but last time I tried to have sex she simply said 'no'. I am almost at the end of my rope. I asked her when she was going to go back to work and now she is giving me the silent treatment. I am getting nowhere with her."

4th post: "Stop it with the alpha nonsense, it is pure BS."

5th Post: "Here comes Mr. Beta again. Clearly - the OP needs to ensure his wife understands the consequences of not meeting his needs, and he has to follow through on his promises. Get out of the house, get his life in order. If she asks why simply look her in the eye and state your case and stand firm. If she doesnt hold up her end of the deal - leave. This isnt difficult or complicated. Yeah, they have other issues - but 6 months without sex is NOT normal."

Silly exaggeration right? Not by much. When you see this kind of 'advice' - you just hate to see someone possibly making a bad situation worse - and any attempt to root out the real situation is called out as a waste of time. 

really - I should just stay away.. and left the board a couple months ago for that very reason and took a peek last week. (oops). Its just some stupid internet forum - but unfortunately it is no game when real lives and families are involved. *sigh*. I do think the moderators, who also push this unfortunately - do rarely inject a little balance - though perhaps not frequently enough for my liking.

Again - the people who push it have used it with some success. That means 1) they had a really screwed up relationship maybe still do, and 2) It 'worked' for them whatever that means to them. Those points do not automatically make it an effective prescription for others in all cases, sorry.

God I'm such an insufferable, pontificating, self righeous windbag. I hope my posts dont get as bad as 'Simply Amorous'.  (That was a joke)

Oh... is this the womens room? Gads I went in the wrong restroom too? THIS is shaping up to be a disaster.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]


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