# Sexual Disconnect: Stage 1 to Stage 4 defined



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Feedback welcome  

Recently a poster suggested using a Stage 1-4 structure for diagnosing an LD spouse's level of dysfunction. Below, I took a crack at defining the degree of sexual disconnect between a married couple. I have tried hard to capture the common contributions of both the HD and LD spouses. 

For this draft I am minimizing use of sexual frequency numbers and primarily defining the stages in terms of common toxic behaviors that seem to come with the territory because it is this dysfunction that often does more damage than the disconnect itself: 
- Lying, tolerating lies or even encouraging dishonest answers to our questions
- Making and accepting statements that totally contradict objectively observable events
- Blameshifting
- Treating your partner with sexual contempt and tolerating sexual contempt (giving or receiving corpse sex - kiss less sex, hurry the hell up sex, etc.)
- Crazily bidding up the 'value' of marital sex in a degrading manner

The term sexual 'gap' refers to the difference in desired frequency, engagement level and/or desired sexual activities. 

Stage 1: (both spouses are working towards or have reached a workable compromise)
- The gap is causing sexual tension and conflict, but isn't substantially harming the rest of the marriage
- Both spouses are making an effort to keep it manageable
- A mutually tolerable frequency has been agreed and the LD partner signals their receptivity to minimize incidents where they reject their HD partner 
- It is neither compulsively discussed or obsessively avoided. 
- The gap is painful but sincere - it isn't driven by sadism, manipulation, etc. 

The LD partner does not:
- Believe that they are the first, last and only word on whether or not sex is happening
- Flirt and forget, or worse tease and pretend can't understand why that is hurtful
- Seriously exaggerate the amount of sex they are having
- Demonize their HD partner for having a higher drive or 'ONLY caring about sex'
- Pretend they think the HD partner is happy with the status quo

The HD partner does not:
- Create a hyper-sexualized environment via unwanted groping, leering, comments etc.
- Try to force a higher level of frequency/activity by tolerating a high rate of rejection or begging/groveling or whining
- Participate in degrading sex with a partner who: (1) won't kiss them or (2) just lies there or (3) otherwise makes it clear they wish they were doing anything else 
- Pressure their LD partner to tell them how great it was afterwards
- React negatively when it is clear their partner partner didn't reach the rapture

Stage 2: Is characterized by (1) a steady increase in HD 'fixer' behaviors and (2) a steady decrease in the frequency of fully engaged, mutually positive sexual activity
- Deception/self deception are increasing as are boundary erosion and sadism 
- The size/duration of the gap is spilling outside the bedroom 
- Both partners have accepted frequent sexual rejection as the 'new normal' 
- Both partners are digging in: the HD is pouring more time and effort into 'fixing' their interaction, and the LD partner is now shutting down communication about it

The first signs of patterned LD partner cruelty have appeared: 
- They up the ante, trying to find their HD partners boundaries: for example if the LD partner comes first, they stop sex before the HD partner comes
- Flirting/teasing and then not following through 
- In 'talks' they exaggerate frequency and blame shift
- Insulting the HD partner for 'ONLY' caring about sex 
- Engaging in public displays of affection that imply the marriage is sexually healthy 
- Claiming the overall marriage is fine 

The HD partner, boundaries crumbling is now trading respect and self respect for sex: 
- Performing an escalating series of actions to try to raise the frequency/activity
- Tolerating a high rate of rejection in the hope of hearing yes
- Engaging in some level of begging/groveling/whining
- Enabling some level of degrading sex with a partner who: (1) won't kiss them or (2) just lies there or (3) otherwise makes it clear they wish they were doing anything else 
- Is unwilling to force a 'real' talk - fearful of what they will hear
- Is showing a level of weakness to their LD partner that is toxic to respect and love 

Stage 3: The marriage is now technically sexless at 10 or fewer times a year
- The overall marriage is now seriously impaired
- The HD partner is still trying but is more depressed/demoralized than anxious/angry 
- The LD partner has lost empathy and respect for their HD spouse
- Both partners accept the LD partner having total sexual control 
- This situation typically stays the same or worsens unless a major event happens (an affair, last child leaves the house, major illness) 

Stage 4: The HD partner has lost hope and no longer tries to date/romance/excite their LD spouse. Sex remains less than 10 times a year.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Hi MEM missed you. Glad to see you back. Hope you will stay. :=}
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thanks Catherine,
I missed all of you also. 

Glad to be back. Hope you are well.




Catherine602 said:


> Hi MEM missed you. Glad to see you back. Hope you will stay. :=}
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uncool (Dec 12, 2010)

I don't think I'm really that HD... I'd be ecstatic with once week. it's just that my wife is a very hard LD. 
My marriage is at a hard stage 3 while I'm entering a stage 4 (aka considering divorce)

So now what? counseling?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The objective after stage 3 would be or should include payback or revenge or Anon's SAT-busting word (comeuppance ) for years wasted. Divorce to many LD's is like being locked in a candy store overnight for stealing candy, not a major deterrent. Not with divorce laws and practices the way they exist in the USA at least.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

by Allah, now here come another legal discussions...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uncool,
Most folks end up in Stage 3/Stage 4 because they aren't willing to assert themselves in a manner that might destabilize the marriage. 

I imagine you now realize that putting huge effort into getting your wife to have sex with you it comes across as 'weak and needy': most wives find 'weakness' a huge turn off. Which is why engaging in (1) corpse sex, (2) kiss-less sex and (3) hurry the hell up sex, is toxic. It is weak and selfish and bad for both of you. 

What have you done to demonstrate strength and assert yourself despite her clear opposition? Are you willing to destabilize the relationship even if that 'might' cause her to leave? 

Why is she doing this:
- Is this problem based on core sexual incompatibility: (physical attraction, behavioral stuff - too gentle - too rough - too fast - too slow - too chatty - too quiet)
- Or is the main problem outside the bedroom, but it is now killing your sex life?
- Which of you is the more 'controlling' spouse? How does that show itself? 
- What happens when you have conflict? 
- In what situations does she put YOUR needs first? 
- When do you put her needs first? 
- What have you done to be certain she isn't having an affair? 

------




uncool said:


> I don't think I'm really that HD... I'd be ecstatic with once week. it's just that my wife is a very hard LD.
> My marriage is at a hard stage 3 while I'm entering a stage 4 (aka considering divorce)
> 
> So now what? counseling?













uncool said:


> I don't think I'm really that HD... I'd be ecstatic with once week. it's just that my wife is a very hard LD.
> My marriage is at a hard stage 3 while I'm entering a stage 4 (aka considering divorce)
> 
> So now what? counseling?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> by Allah, now here come another legal discussions...


There is a reason half the marriages in the USA end in divorce and it is not because of Coke vs Pepsi arguments. In the USA at least divorce is often a contact sport...


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Wow, MEM I have been cogitating on the causes for and solutions to my sexless marriage for more years than I care to remember and, I have never seen the evolution of a sexless marriage more succinctly explained … _*you nailed it*_.

I am 3 years into your “Stage 4” (26 year marriage in total), although I do still go on dates with my H. However the dates are more like doing “stuff” with a good friend. And, I have long since lost any fear of destabilizing our relationship; it is not a real marriage in any case; more of a financial partnership.

I just don’t see any point (positives) in dissolving the marriage because I would lose half of what I worked hard to accumulate, combined assets provide for a better life and there is no “other man” out there just waiting for me to meet him. Fifty-six year old women have no “rank” in the dating pool no matter how good-looking/fit they are and no matter how many of my DD20’s friends think I am “hot” :rofl:.

I am a realist and pragmatist. I had my chance at having a true marriage, it didn’t work out and I have long since learned to accept it and accept that it will never happen for me. I have the finances to do most anything I desire and I live a full life, with the exception of that one thing.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The crazy European in me hollers "to ruin! To ruin!"...

What makes you think that if you're taken for granted in the bedroom you won't be taken for granted at the bank?

I'm quite convinced that when Rupture #2 comes knocking in a couple years it won't be because of sex (or lack thereof ) but because of grossly different and irreconcilable financial views. Good sex may help overlook small stuff but we're talking TEPCO level disaster looming... If she won't listen to the Fidelity dude I doubt she'll listen to her husband or her favorite male figure (Anderson Cooper LOLZ)...


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

john117 said:


> There is a reason half the marriages in the USA end in divorce and it is not because of Coke vs Pepsi arguments. In the USA at least divorce is often a contact sport...


well, you know, I am sure all those lawyers need to make a living too.. 

*too much watching L.A Law in the early 90s*


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Red,
I believe that entering stage 2 requires both spouses to engage in dysfunction. At minimum one exhibits dysfunction and the other enables. This isn't the occasional 'misfire/'mistake'. This is patterned - representing both folks making a choice. 

The list below is a representative sample of me or Mrs. MEM initiating dysfunction. 

Her Stage 2 overtures:
- Twice in our first few months together Mrs. MEM raised a topic we were having conflict over immediately before sex. This was after getting in bed undressed and just as we began to kiss. Both times I stopped, started to dress and calmly said: "oh you want to talk about that, lets dress and go downstairs." She completely stopped doing that for more than twenty years. 
- After that twenty plus year hiatus, she blatantly attempted to use sexual leverage twice in the space of a few months. I immediately called her on it both times and told her to 'tread lightly'. I was beyond furious about one of those two incidents, and raised it repeatedly to reinforce the feedback. We just reached the one year mark without any more game playing. 

My Stage 2 overtures (this part is harder to type):
- Once during our 5th year, I made comments about our 'activity mix' when she was already stretching a LOT to meet my desired frequency. I was WAY out of line and she ***** slapped me hard enough to make my head ring. 
- A few years back I brought a 'not so loving' attitude to bed a few times. Once it was a very selfish mindset, and once coldly angry. She dealt with the selfish via very pointed body language. But she took the emotional blowtorch to me over the 'angry'. Fully deserved. 

And a couple rounds of 5150 behavior with my W suggesting (out of the blue) we stop having sex and me immediately agreeing she shouldn't do anything she didn't want, and promptly offering to outsource. Primal stuff - merely the idea (as it never happened) of me sleeping with another woman seemed to be an intense turn on for her. 

---------
One of the most challenging situations is when an LD spouse slowly but steadily ratchets the frequency down, way past the point of sexual starvation. The primary dysfunction here is that the LD gaslights their HD partner: They deny a loss of attraction, and a strong desire to avoid sex. Because their statements are so totally at odds with their actions, the LD partner is determined to avoid any discussion of sex. 

For the LD to succeed the dysfunction dynamic is typically:
1. The HD doesn't force a candid conversation fairly early on. 
2. The LD skillfully resists candid conversation - despite knowing that it is increasingly cruel to keep their HD partner in the dark. 

The 'talk' needs to be short. I have written some draft talks for folks over the years, maybe practice makes perfect:

HD: 
I would like to have a short but important discussion. The good news is:
- I only need about 5 uninterrupted minutes of talk time 
- I don't expect you to reply, though you are welcome to do so - AFTER giving me the 5 minutes needed to finish
- What I am about to say is straight from an email that I will send you later today 

I started with an email because prior conversations about our sex life seem to have produced nothing but negative feelings. Because of that I decided to limit today's discussion to my boundaries. My biggest mistake regarding our bedroom difficulties, was convincing myself that it was better to suspend my boundaries indefinitely as an act of faith in our marriage. I apologize for that, it won't happen again. Going forward:
I will not allow conversations to continue when I am certain that what I am hearing is completely different than what I am experiencing. 
If we deadlock over differing perceptions of what is 'happening', we will agree to keep a log of the disputed event(s). While keeping 'score' isn't ideal, it is far less toxic to me then having repeated discussions which end with me convinced that one of us is losing their grip on reality or worse that one of us is not being truthful. 
I will not participate in situations that are corrosive to my mental well being. A situation is corrosive if it commonly includes: (A) explicit rejection, (B) a pattern of communication that requires increasingly large 'leaps of blind faith' to accept.
Equally corrosive is a situation where one person wants a co-parent and a romantic, emotionally and physically intimate partner and the other prefers a co-parent/high quality roommate. 
This means the romantic part of our marriage is on indefinite hold until (A) you WANT to try to resurrect it and (B) we are BOTH willing to freely discuss and reach agreement on what constitutes a mutually positive physically intimate relationship.
I will not engage in publicly deceptive behavior by acting as if everything is ok between us when socializing with friends and/or family. 
If asked 'how we are doing' I will either remain silent or explain that we are no longer living as husband and wife. 
For now I will tolerate a co-parent/roommate arrangement. What that means is a true 50/50 split on everything: (A) discretionary spending, (B) total workload factoring in work, commuting and home responsibilities. I will take a first crack at a schedule and division of responsibilities. 




john117 said:


> The objective after stage 3 would be or should include payback or revenge or Anon's SAT-busting word (comeuppance ) for years wasted. Divorce to many LD's is like being locked in a candy store overnight for stealing candy, not a major deterrent. Not with divorce laws and practices the way they exist in the USA at least.










Red Sonja said:


> Wow, MEM I have been cogitating on the causes for and solutions to my sexless marriage for more years than I care to remember and, I have never seen the evolution of a sexless marriage more succinctly explained … _*you nailed it*_.
> 
> I am 3 years into your “Stage 4” (26 year marriage in total), although I do still go on dates with my H. However the dates are more like doing “stuff” with a good friend. And, I have long since lost any fear of destabilizing our relationship; it is not a real marriage in any case; more of a financial partnership.
> 
> ...


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

I am at stage 4.. What comes after that???


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

ladybird said:


> I am at stage 4.. What comes after that???


divorce.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It seems to me once one reaches stage 3+ stopping any sexual activity with the LD partner is preferable to infrequent sex followed by drought. Let it go the first time for 2-3 months or more and then in the event there is hope for improvement both can work from that starting point. If not, get your dance card stamped 'Stage 4' and be done with it.

I never had what one would call 'meaningless sex' (three cheers for Dr. John The Committed here :rofl but I can't attach a better label to such cases mentioned above other than meaningless.


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## soulsearch (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: Re: Sexual Disconnect: Stage 1 to Stage 4 defined*



Red Sonja said:


> Wow, MEM I have been cogitating on the causes for and solutions to my sexless marriage for more years than I care to remember and, I have never seen the evolution of a sexless marriage more succinctly explained … _*you nailed it*_.
> 
> I am 3 years into your “Stage 4” (26 year marriage in total), although I do still go on dates with my H. However the dates are more like doing “stuff” with a good friend. And, I have long since lost any fear of destabilizing our relationship; it is not a real marriage in any case; more of a financial partnership.
> 
> ...


This has to be one of the saddest things I've read. It's like giving a starving person a potato chip bag that contains nothing but air.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Red Sonja said:


> I just don’t see any point (positives) in dissolving the marriage because I would lose half of what I worked hard to accumulate, combined assets provide for a better life and there is no “other man” out there just waiting for me to meet him. Fifty-six year old women have no “rank” in the dating pool no matter how good-looking/fit they are and no matter how many of my DD20’s friends think I am “hot” :rofl:.
> 
> I am a realist and pragmatist. I had my chance at having a true marriage, it didn’t work out and I have long since learned to accept it and accept that it will never happen for me. I have the finances to do most anything I desire and I live a full life, with the exception of that one thing.


Hey Red-

Also at stage 4.... I feel about the same. I am only 46 though. What woman would want a Divorced man with a young child. A broken man who would be broke after a D. I don't know where I would rank. 

The difference for me is that my wife tells me I can have sex with other women. Hasn't happened yet. I do have several female friends though. Now they do know my situation. I know I am bordering on an EA. It's not cheating because my wife knows about my friendships.She acts like its no big deal. I really don't get it.

Red...56 is not old. I know several women in their 50's who are hot. If they have money? I wouldn't mind having a sugar momma. lol. Too bad your in California


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

MEM----

Is there any hope for a marriage once it reaches stage 4?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Not without serious fireworks. Stage 4 by definition is a multi year project and by the time the couple ) optional) is in this place they have a lot more to worry about than sex.

The LD partner knows this and that's how things stay as they are. It's quite simple actually.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Trickster,
I hope you find this response to be helpful. 

Reconnecting: Possible Outcomes
When people ask, what happens after Stage X,Y,Z I have no idea what to tell them because I don't know what they define as an acceptable outcome. From the high bar of (1) below down to (4), every HD partner has a different view of what's workable. These are just sample points on the continuum describing a range of HD expectations/experiences. I used my specific situation - for example 3 below. 

The thing is, you have to define what IS an acceptable outcome for yourself before initiating a talk with your partner. Otherwise they might say NO because they don't think they can meet your expectations or say YES thinking you have a lower bar than you actually do. 

My partner must demonstrate a strong sexual response to me by:
- Initiating occasionally 
- Quickly getting aroused (hard/wet) when I initiate
- Having at least one orgasm when we connect - or at the very least explain why they are so screwed up they can't even validate my ego by rapturing on command

2. My partner needs to: 
- Be engaged and fully present
- Let me touch/stimulate them even if they cannot orgasm
- Touch and stimulate me 
- Show a genuine desire to connect - they don't have to initiate - but do have to respond
- Be honest with me about likes/dislikes and how they feel

3. My partner needs to bring love and the desire for closeness to bed. Needs to be:
- Totally engaged and want to be held, kissed and touched 
- Genuinely glad to be close to me
- Happy to please me physically
- Openly appreciative of the results of my running/lifting and
- Even happier to mock my vanity when she catches me lingering shirtless at the mirror 
- Not resentful that I reach the rapture when she mostly cannot
- Open connecting when I initiate 
- If we get close to a week since the last time - she gently prods me 
And I am:
- Totally accepting of her physical/sexual limitations: (vulvodynia* has meant intercourse completely, and most likely permanently, stopped a year and a half ago) 
- Accepting that her Vulvodynia pain combined with very low (menopause) hormone levels means that: (A) it's a win if I can even get her a little turned on, (B) an orgasm is maybe a 1 in 20 outcome.
- Understanding that her cardiac issues make HRT unacceptably risky 
- Grateful that she trusts me enough to say to me: I am here for you. Unless I tell you that I am 'out of commission' for one reason or other, I am glad to be 'with' you whenever you want. 
- Glad to lie side by side in a lightly sexual 'affectionate tangle' that creates a pleasant heat but not a frustrating level of desire most nights.
- Careful to conceal the anxiety surge that comes right after my orgasm as the inevitable questions bubble up inside: Was it 'bad' for her? Does she wish I would lose interest? Did I eat enough blueberries today? Does she really 'want' to do this - like she says, or is it simply a steady application of marital 'crazy glue'? But these are my anxieties to manage - telling her would be wrong. She is doing something amazing - giving me all that she has. So afterwards I just say - the same thing I have said for 20 years: thank you for loving me. 

4. I am at the point where it is ok if my partner does one or more of these:
- No kissing 
- Corpse sex
- Hurry up and finish

















Trickster said:


> MEM----
> 
> Is there any hope for a marriage once it reaches stage 4?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Trickster,
> 4. I am at the point where it is ok if my partner does one or more of these:
> - No kissing
> - Corpse sex
> - Hurry up and finish


Then we must have missed a stage. A few months ago I decided that I was not going to play along when Dr. Mrs. LD's chromosomes aligned with the stars and she was in the mood. After a couple of months she started initiating very often, but in the name of scientific research I decided to play uber-LD and :sleeping:... That caused serious marital fireworks (I guess the world reciprocity or tit for tat is not in her vocabulary). I 'gave in' :smthumbup: a couple times and that was the best nookie we had in many years. Repeat a few weeks later to get some additional data points.

It turns out that you will not be reading about my success in Nature because the results were not repeatable. After a couple of times she went back to her usual attitude towards nookie :sleeping: only to come back and start initiating after the requisite time. This time I decided to heck with it and continued my Angry Birds research. Boy was she fuming. I pointed out to her my usual position etc and she was livid. Rejection does hurt I guess. 

Since it is not difficult for me to act indifferent, I found out that it really infuriates her :smthumbup:. Pity that she puts so much mental effort to avoid nookie most of the time, without realizing there's far less effort to have nookie. 

So, I would suggest that you reconsider #4 above... As I said, I never had meaningless nookie, but the last couple times, it really felt meaningless. And she knows. As Ron White would say, "you can't fix stupid".


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
Funny stuff happens in long term marriages. At some level Mrs. MEM knows that it is best to play nice and play carefully in the bedroom. 

Still - the crazy sh!t you are describing - is really a control issue more than anything else. Mrs. MEM went pretty much insane on control issues over the last few years. Everything but sex. The cynic in me says: Of course she didn't jack with your sex life, she knows that it gives her sooooo much leverage with you. 

Partly my fault. Every now and then when she was being very difficult - but not caustic I would laugh and say 'you are Soooooo lucky you are good in bed'. And she would just smile. 

At her craziest, she was willing to get into a full scale protracted brawl with me over an amount of discretionary income that I earned in less than one hour. Discretionary income. Not gross. Not take home. 

One hour of: Take home minus all normal expenses. This mind you - while she is the stay at home mom to a sophomore and senior in HS. We had one too many of blow outs like that. And then we had a couple conversations about not doing things (things I wanted, not things she wanted) because 'I wasn't working'. Each time I responded with 'you mean because neither of us is working right'? 

I just helped her finish her resume today. 

And when she was being crazily aggresive with me about many small issues, what saved her from me finding a lawyer and filing was:
- love - very powerful stuff
- on the money front she was always very responsible herself 
- at the absolute nadir - I sent her an email saying that if we parted ways, she had agreed that my inheritance was not a marital asset and would not be split, otherwise all else was 50-50. The inheritance was 10% of our net worth. She was beyond shocked - but immediately agreed that she was fine with it. 

Suddenly the woman willing to go to the mat with me over $20 or $200, is now getting cut out of her half of a bit more than 200K. And her response is a meek - that's fair. 

John: here's my parallel to your post above. I could not get my W to stop with the crazy fuvking behavior about money.....until....I quit working and said - no more - you want to control the money - then go out and earn it. I'm not going to support you anymore. Oh and FYI: control means the 'new money', I earned the assets we have so any control over that is joint....

I seriously doubt the accuracy of your comment about how your wife would respond to you outsourcing sex. She wouldn't go on a couple thousand dollar shopping spree. She would freak. Loss of control. That is why you withholding caused the response it did.










john117 said:


> Then we must have missed a stage. A few months ago I decided that I was not going to play along when Dr. Mrs. LD's chromosomes aligned with the stars and she was in the mood. After a couple of months she started initiating very often, but in the name of scientific research I decided to play uber-LD and :sleeping:... That caused serious marital fireworks (I guess the world reciprocity or tit for tat is not in her vocabulary). I 'gave in' :smthumbup: a couple times and that was the best nookie we had in many years. Repeat a few weeks later to get some additional data points.
> 
> It turns out that you will not be reading about my success in Nature because the results were not repeatable. After a couple of times she went back to her usual attitude towards nookie :sleeping: only to come back and start initiating after the requisite time. This time I decided to heck with it and continued my Angry Birds research. Boy was she fuming. I pointed out to her my usual position etc and she was livid. Rejection does hurt I guess.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> Funny stuff happens in long term marriages. At some level Mrs. MEM knows that it is best to play nice and play carefully in the bedroom.
> 
> Still - the crazy sh!t you are describing - is really a control issue more than anything else. Mrs. MEM went pretty much insane on control issues over the last few years. Everything but sex. The cynic in me says: Of course she didn't jack with your sex life, she knows that it gives her sooooo much leverage with you.
> ...


Money is not a cause of conflict in our relationship - for the time being. Rapture 2 will change that once the feasibility of paying for a mansion and two private college tuitions will dawn upon us. 

In general, tho, our situations are quite different. Mrs. MEM is not afflicted with BPD and that adds a new dimension to the game. It's not even about control. Its not about sex. It's all about adjusting to the financial realities of 2015 versus 2000. 

In 2000 we had a rosy employment picture, freshly minted doctorate degrees in difficult fields, stable jobs, two young kids, etc. 2015 is quite different and none of the above applies. Normal people see it and adjust, especially when buyers for high end homes will not be as plentiful as in the past. But BPD causes serious lapses in forward thinking so a major argument is required to get her to downsize.

In terms of predicting behavior it is not so difficult. Again, dealing with a BPD is about as complex as Sim City, simple stuff. Outsourcing sex would work about as well as it did for her cousin. His wife turned LD on him after marriage and a kid, them put on some serious weight all while siphoning away a good part of his executive director salary. He fell for it, had a brief affair, captured by a private eye, divorce, cleaners, lost his job due to stress, his house, etc. His ex promptly lost the extra pounds and remarried. He moved across the country tho he hooked up with a therapist and eventually married her... Hee-larious


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

john117 said:


> ...His wife turned LD on him after marriage and a kid, them put on some serious weight all while siphoning away a good part of his executive director salary. He fell for it, had a brief affair, captured by a private eye, divorce, cleaners, lost his job due to stress, his house, etc. His ex promptly lost the extra pounds and remarried. He moved across the country tho he hooked up with a therapist and eventually married her... Hee-larious


scary stuff.. If I am a young man living in your country, I won't bother getting married at all.


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## herblackwings (May 16, 2013)

Red Sonja said:


> Wow, MEM I have been cogitating on the causes for and solutions to my sexless marriage for more years than I care to remember and, I have never seen the evolution of a sexless marriage more succinctly explained … _*you nailed it*_.
> 
> I am 3 years into your “Stage 4” (26 year marriage in total), although I do still go on dates with my H. However the dates are more like doing “stuff” with a good friend. And, I have long since lost any fear of destabilizing our relationship; it is not a real marriage in any case; more of a financial partnership.
> 
> ...



Wow I'm in track to living your life only I'm 34 and male. Did u stay for kids? That's where I'm at. We are a business partnership makeing some good moves that will have big benefits down the road.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Scary indeed. This guy was Ivy League educated, amazingly smart, yet he was wiped clean. Also suffered depression and a heart attack and was involved in a DUI. 

Thankfully Dr. Mrs. LD is not that cunning, and luckily for her, I have no energy for affairs  but there's deeper pleasure in achieving what her cousin's ex accomplished, and she knows that too. So for now we are set. Tomorrow never knows.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

MEM

After about a month moratorium on sex, things have changed for now. Part of the reason of the moratorium was she told me I was free to have sex elsewhere. Although that should make most men happy, to have a license to have an A, it did hurt that she was so against sex she would say that. I don't want to force sex on her....EVER! So all affection, intimacy, complements, doing nice things....Everything stopped. I even stopped making dinner, which is something I enjoy doing. I was punishing myself because I had to eat my wife's cooking.

So last week, I just told her "I we are sex tonight". She said OK. So we did.

What I have been doing recently:

I am going out to more events/fundraisers with acquaintances.

Occasional happy hours

Lunch dates with female friends.

Although things seen a little better this past week. My wife even initiating, something seems odd. I feel like we are friends with benefits now. I don't feel that sex is bringing us closer. I was trying that before with more sex and it backfired on me.

I am just at a point where I know I will be needing friends. I don't want to be alone in some small apartment.

What phase is this on your list MEM?


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Trickster said:


> MEM
> 
> After about a month moratorium on sex, things have changed for now. Part of the reason of the moratorium was she told me I was free to have sex elsewhere. Although that should make most men happy, to have a license to have an A, it did hurt that she was so against sex she would say that. I don't want to force sex on her....EVER! So all affection, intimacy, complements, doing nice things....Everything stopped. I even stopped making dinner, which is something I enjoy doing. I was punishing myself because I had to eat my wife's cooking.
> 
> ...


So, find some friends. Join a group.

I'm not sure most guys would think having that permission is a good thing. It would be a no go for me. I would be done. Call me old fashioned but I'm not interested in having sex with somebody I wouldn't want to explore a relationship with. What kind of woman would want to get in the middle of your situation?

_Posted via *Topify* using Android_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
Do you view your conflict with your W as primarily driven by the relative weight each of you places on:
- social status 
- the contribution that a large, expensive home makes to your social status

Mrs. MEM places a high weight on certain social status metrics, but not others. She heavily weights 'high quality maintenance'. So we both keep the house and yard up and she is happy. 







QUOTE=john117;4077401]Money is not a cause of conflict in our relationship - for the time being. Rapture 2 will change that once the feasibility of paying for a mansion and two private college tuitions will dawn upon us. 

In general, tho, our situations are quite different. Mrs. MEM is not afflicted with BPD and that adds a new dimension to the game. It's not even about control. Its not about sex. It's all about adjusting to the financial realities of 2015 versus 2000. 

In 2000 we had a rosy employment picture, freshly minted doctorate degrees in difficult fields, stable jobs, two young kids, etc. 2015 is quite different and none of the above applies. Normal people see it and adjust, especially when buyers for high end homes will not be as plentiful as in the past. But BPD causes serious lapses in forward thinking so a major argument is required to get her to downsize.

In terms of predicting behavior it is not so difficult. Again, dealing with a BPD is about as complex as Sim City, simple stuff. Outsourcing sex would work about as well as it did for her cousin. His wife turned LD on him after marriage and a kid, them put on some serious weight all while siphoning away a good part of his executive director salary. He fell for it, had a brief affair, captured by a private eye, divorce, cleaners, lost his job due to stress, his house, etc. His ex promptly lost the extra pounds and remarried. He moved across the country tho he hooked up with a therapist and eventually married her... Hee-larious [/QUOTE]


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> So, find some friends. Join a group.
> 
> I'm not sure most guys would think having that permission is a good thing. It would be a no go for me. I would be done. Call me old fashioned but I'm not interested in having sex with somebody I wouldn't want to explore a relationship with. What kind of woman would want to get in the middle of your situation?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using Android_



When it comes down to it, I would want to have an affair. Most of the women in my circle would never want to be an AP. One did say she would be first in line once I D. Provided that I was emotionally stable afterwards. 

I am joining groups. I just started to volunteer at an animal shelter. A very large one. So far, I like it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T,
Is your wife open/honest enough to tell you what she likes/dislikes about the physical part of your marriage? 

Does she like giving or getting non sexual affection: 
- Hugs
- Lying next to each other bodies touching/lightly caressing or holding hands while reading or watching tv
- Back rubs
- Back scratch

Are there parts of a sexual encounter she likes?
- Kissing
- Giving/getting certain types of foreplay

Has she honestly told you what aspect(s) of sex with you she dislikes? 

I understand you have a frequency disconnect, but perhaps that is amplified by differing expectations of what makes a good encounter. 

What would you be ok with in terms of an 'encounter' with your W? 
Does she know what your definition of 'ok' is? 

My W definitely knows what I am ok and not ok with. 

Her asking to defer until tomorrow = perfectly fine.
Her agreeing and then radiating disinterest = would cause an immediate cessation of activity by me. And then I would ask her:
- are you ok? 
- are we ok? 
- did I do something to throw you off stride?

She really doesn't do that though. 

I think it helps that she does't have to pretend that she is more turned on than she actually is. If she is feeling pain down below or nipple sensitivity she tells me and knows that I want to know. 

So I believe that we have a very honest experience that is physically quite one sided, but seems emotionally beneficial to both of us. 






Trickster said:


> MEM
> 
> After about a month moratorium on sex, things have changed for now. Part of the reason of the moratorium was she told me I was free to have sex elsewhere. Although that should make most men happy, to have a license to have an A, it did hurt that she was so against sex she would say that. I don't want to force sex on her....EVER! So all affection, intimacy, complements, doing nice things....Everything stopped. I even stopped making dinner, which is something I enjoy doing. I was punishing myself because I had to eat my wife's cooking.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> Do you view your conflict with your W as primarily driven by the relative weight each of you places on:
> - social status
> - the contribution that a large, expensive home makes to your social status


Hard to tell what the real cause of the conflict is. It reminds me a great extent to the conflict in the Middle East or former Yugoslavia. After a few centuries nobody knows for sure.

Social status is funny, since we have nearly zero social life to begin with. She works from home most of the time and her colleagues are mostly overseas. I work outside the home in a normal 9-4 job :lol: Both of us agree to not socialize with coworkers, as in this day and age of corporate layoffs two spouses working and a super nice house are an invitation for layoff ('you're ok, your wife works'). She entertains a bunch of ex-pats every couple years, I rarely have anyone over except a couple of trusted friends, and that's it. Any social benefit for the house is largely innate, that is, our enjoyment in owning such a fine property. 

She probably feels I am not worthy of such a social status, since i could easily live in a cardboard box. Growing up poor (lower middle class) in a not so economically pleasant part of Europe will do it to you. 

I would say out of the vast multitude of ways we disagree on...  I could pick a few key ones:

- not spending every last dime we have on the house
- not spending every waking hour I have working on the house 
- not spending the rest of my time on the threadmill
- not killing myself to advance in my career (like it matters, I already make about 15% more than her and she makes very good money)
- not being ambitious enough (true that)
- in general, being content with life, such as it is
- not being mature enough (true that, I am at home with the 25 year old crowd)
- not having been in 'difficult' situations like job loss, etc (memo: try being very good at your job and very polite, it usually helps)

Her idea of a great life is to work ('work' actually) for 14-15 hours a day in her home office (of which maybe 6 are real work the other is either make work or watching CNN) then throw some food together, go for a couple hours walk, come back, and sleep. No motivation to do anything interesting or fun in life. Fun is to go on vacations once a year and there the primary focus is to buy art, not enjoy the trip or new surroundings). Sex is something do do a bit more often than vacation (i.e. a few times a year )

Personally I don't care about our differences - We have had those 30 years ago and we did very well. But in the last 5 or so years (post Rapture) the lack of emotional connection makes ignoring any undesired behavior very difficult. And, we'll eventually hit the point of no return.


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## Aldrin (Aug 25, 2013)

Mem, that was such an artful post, you really captured it perfectly... thank you. I continue to reread it... it doesn't fit my situation perfectly but close enough. 

I'm stage 3-4 at 29 years old, it's sad. Married 5 years with a daughter. My relationship with my wife has eroded beyond repair as a result. Talk of having a second child is suspended indefinitely in this house. It's an offensive subject to me. I married my wife because she was an amazing lover but once the ring went on, it was a vow of celibacy. Until she wanted kids of course but unfortunately she got pregnant after a whole two days of us trying, the sex then promptly dropped off once again. I felt like a sperm donor. The upside here is I have successfully linked the "I want a second kid" argument to "We never have sex"... and guess what? We don't have either conversation anymore. I guess there is a plus side here. 

I work all day for a tech giant, shes a stay at home mom with her big house, car and nice things. It's a joke looking at her social media statuses too, so happy and gushing about everything. She looks like a super model, has a million selfies of herself and us all of her facebook, but hey, she has body image issues OK? Lay off... :rofl: 

I loved the note about public displays of affection, *love that one*, talk about salt in the wounds my wife is the WORST with that. All about the image, all about the status... not a single **** given. Life's a sick joke, back to work, thank you for helping one poor soul breath a little easier today, cheers.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Why have plain sex when you can have "Call of Duty 6: Marital Warfare"???

I'm not the one to suggest NMMNG or MMSL or the like, but at under 30 years, there might yet be hope. Crank up the ole' indiffer-o-meter to 170, or 175 (maxes at 180) and chug along.

At that age maybe it will work, and as the LD Cure Brigade would say, maybe she'll see the light (of course one would wonder whether it's the light she sees or the demise of Dolce Vita...)

Don't make it easy for them. Maybe some spouses take the 'militant LD' position, so be prepared to counter that. 

The objective is to NOT get into steady state.


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## Aldrin (Aug 25, 2013)

Dig that John. I'm calling myself Dr. No these days. I have been saying no to everything. I have even been saying no to things I wouldn't mind doing, just to say no. I use the same excuses she does too... "I'm tired..." is my favorite one.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Aldrin said:


> I use the same excuses she does too... "I'm tired..." is my favorite one.


Not tonight, honey. I have a few hundred aliens to kill in Halo 4...

:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> T,
> Is your wife open/honest enough to tell you what she likes/dislikes about the physical part of your marriage?
> 
> *not really....Even when I was initiating everyday, she didn't say anything. She will never tell me what she wants me to do to her. I have to guess*
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Trickster,
That is a tough situation. I tolerated a 5 day cycle for over a year at one point. It was a bit easier because I let myself get out of shape and when she complained, I didn't address it until the end of that timeframe. When I did address it, things got better. 

I could tolerate that now. Partly because she has been a great partner (and a giving sexual partner) for most of our marriage. And partly because I truly don't blame her for having vulvodynia and a severe shortage of hormones. 

It is nice that she trusts me to 'tread lightly' on frequency so she doesnt get anxious about affection. 

I am confident my wife really loves me. Equally confident that I if I pushed her too hard on frequency, she would start to question how much I love her.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

herblackwings said:


> Wow I'm in track to living your life only I'm 34 and male. Did u stay for kids? That's where I'm at. We are a business partnership makeing some good moves that will have big benefits down the road.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I was ready to leave long ago and then we "inherited" a five-year-old child and I committed to raising her; I do not regret the decision. It was just fate, bad luck or whatever you want to call it that this happened when it did.

You are male, so I understand you staying for the kids as most likely you would not get adequate custody under the judicial system that is present in most jurisdictions. However, a divorced male is more likely (statistically) to find another relationship later in life than a woman. That is if you can endure the sexless-ness until your children are of age and not let it affect you psychologically, which is very difficult.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Feedback welcome
> 
> Recently a poster suggested using a Stage 1-4 structure for diagnosing an LD spouse's level of dysfunction. Below, I took a crack at defining the degree of sexual disconnect between a married couple. I have tried hard to capture the common contributions of both the HD and LD spouses.
> 
> ...



So true, so totally true. :iagree::iagree:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Red,
Your story was hard to read. Sorry for you. 

The question I sometimes ask myself is: What would I do if: I loved my wife just the same but my desire for her disappeared? 

I 'hope' I would have loved her enough to share the pain by opening the marriage. 
I am pretty sure - if my desire died - I would not have even tried to duck and dodge, evade and avoid. Also pretty certain that she would not have allowed me to. 

Once a physically healthy partner realizes they want to eliminate the sexual part of a marriage to the degree possible, their choices are difficult:
Telling the HD spouse the truth puts the bond of monogamy, and the stability of the marriage at grave risk.
The acknowledgement almost guarantees the HD partner will initiate a series of conversations about: 'which of us is broken'? 
In a way, I am guessing that the LD partner rationalizes it as allowing the HD partner to absorb the truth at whatever pace they are most comfortable with. 
Of course they may also, perversely, like all the extras they get from being 'chased'

And Red,
My guess is that the reason you think you can't play in the 'dating market' is your H has relentlessly eroded your self confidence via the acid bath of rejection. 



QUOTE=Red Sonja;4022146]Wow, MEM I have been cogitating on the causes for and solutions to my sexless marriage for more years than I care to remember and, I have never seen the evolution of a sexless marriage more succinctly explained … _*you nailed it*_.

I am 3 years into your “Stage 4” (26 year marriage in total), although I do still go on dates with my H. However the dates are more like doing “stuff” with a good friend. And, I have long since lost any fear of destabilizing our relationship; it is not a real marriage in any case; more of a financial partnership.

I just don’t see any point (positives) in dissolving the marriage because I would lose half of what I worked hard to accumulate, combined assets provide for a better life and there is no “other man” out there just waiting for me to meet him. Fifty-six year old women have no “rank” in the dating pool no matter how good-looking/fit they are and no matter how many of my DD20’s friends think I am “hot” :rofl:.

I am a realist and pragmatist. I had my chance at having a true marriage, it didn’t work out and I have long since learned to accept it and accept that it will never happen for me. I have the finances to do most anything I desire and I live a full life, with the exception of that one thing.[/QUOTE]







Red Sonja said:


> Wow, MEM I have been cogitating on the causes for and solutions to my sexless marriage for more years than I care to remember and, I have never seen the evolution of a sexless marriage more succinctly explained … _*you nailed it*_.
> 
> I am 3 years into your “Stage 4” (26 year marriage in total), although I do still go on dates with my H. However the dates are more like doing “stuff” with a good friend. And, I have long since lost any fear of destabilizing our relationship; it is not a real marriage in any case; more of a financial partnership.
> 
> ...


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

Aldrin said:


> ...I'm calling myself Dr. No these days. I have been saying no to everything. I have even been saying no to things I wouldn't mind doing, just to say no...


I'd be interested to hear if this works. Have others had success with this? Let's hear successes and failures. I tried it, at least to some degree years ago, and without benefit.

It seems like it might work as


A tool to get her attention: "Why are you so negative?" "Well, dear..." or
Driving the relationship into a state of insecurity, for people who can only become aroused in such an insecure place.
 Otherwise, it's hard to see upping confrontation and power struggles as things likely to work.

If you're a reasonable and rational person, you start with


"I'm reasonable, you must be reasonable, let's work from there."
Then, the Dr. No approach, "I'm taking away my reasonableness until you show up ready to be reasonable."
 The problem, is _*the situation isn't rational*_, so if #1 didn't work, #2 might be even less likely to. I think figuring out how to make things rational should be the focus. (I know. Seems impossible. Why am I even posting this?)

I just heard the other day that lots of women felt unloved, because their fathers withdrew all physical affection when they turned 10, or so, because their fathers feared feeling sexual toward their daughters, and how upsetting that was. Or maybe something really bad sexual did happen. Or maybe about a million other things.

Human nature being what it is, I'm guessing you could begin hours of talks with your wife, and the one thing you most need to hear will be the one thing she will try not to reveal. Maybe she's afraid you'll leave her and is cutting her attachment to you, in anxious preparation, making a "self fulfilling prophecy"?

You mentioned anxiety and depression in your other posting. I think you have some difficult detective work ahead of you, but if the Dr. No thing doesn't work, that's another path to try, if you feel there is any love worth trying to build on.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Red Sonja--

This is your quote from your thread 

*"Most women have negative body image issues (even VS models ) and there are a myriad of reasons why. That said, I want this thread to be about what we as women like about our bodies; to focus on the positive. Bear with me; this is supposed to be good therapy. 

The rules are:
1. It must be a feature that you truly like and would never change.
2. Could be anything, from your nipples, your ears to how you look in yoga pants.
3. Tell us why you like the feature.
4. No negatives, i.e. no saying I like X-part but …
5. Truly look at yourself and look for positives.
6. It must be about something you genuinely like and not something you have only been complimented on (because sometimes we don’t believe it).

Anyone game?

I’ll start …

My feet: because they are small and callous-free.
My hair: because it is healthy-looking and very shiny.
My butt: because it is round, tight and high.
My neck: because it’s long.
My skin: because it is smooth, even toned and has never produced a pimple; also because I don’t need foundation.
My height: I am 6’ and up in any type of heels, this one I am not sure of the reason however I enjoy being tall.
My bones: because they are small (e.g. 6” wrists)
My nails (feet and hands): because they are smooth and white."*

You seem confident to me. I can understand what happens from the lack of love and affection from a spouse. It affects everything I do with other people in general. I believe that I am undesirable and unlovable. 

What can I possible offer another person. If our LTP doesn't desire us, something must really be wrong with me!

I do like all your positive traits. You have a lot to offer, even at your age. 

Have you ever been on a vacation without your husband? Say with friends? Even by yourself?


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Trickster,
> That is a tough situation. I tolerated a 5 day cycle for over a year at one point. It was a bit easier because I let myself get out of shape and when she complained, I didn't address it until the end of that timeframe. When I did address it, things got better.
> 
> I could tolerate that now. Partly because she has been a great partner (and a giving sexual partner) for most of our marriage. And partly because I truly don't blame her for having vulvodynia and a severe shortage of hormones.
> ...


I am working on showing more affection and not expect sex. Last night I was doing that with my wife. When I went to bed, I had to read a book (Mad River) to take my mind of of sex. So my wife comes to bed and starts kissing me and kissing my neck. she says she is trying to show more affection. So by now, I am so ready to have sex. I know she wasn't. I move her hand down to touch me to let her know that she still turns me on and moved her hand away after 30 seconds or so. We just had sex the night before, so I knew she didn't want sex again. 

I honestly don't know anymore how to interpret that...Now it's 4 in the morning and I've been awake for over an hour. Can't sleep. I wake up with erections even the morning after sex.

At least when we stopped for a month, my libido stopped.I stopped getting erections. The beast is awake again. I hope I don't have to wait another 3 days.


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## committed_guy (Nov 22, 2011)

We are definitely Stage 4.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Trickster,
It is a common and painful (HD/LD) dilemma when having sex increases the HD partners drive while triggering an extended refractory period for the LD partner. My W and I have the same challenge. 

What helped us to use 'touch' to bond, not clash is a combination of education and compromise. You need to teach her how to give affection that you enjoy - and don't get aroused by. 

A typical night for us:
I want sex, but only if she wants it. If she cues me, I happily initiate. But we connected recently enough that I know she almost certainly won't. She doesn't cue me, so I do NOT radiate a sexual vibe at her. We give each other non-sexual affection/and we lie in a light tangle. I might put my head in her lap for a back scratch - usually a pretty long one.

A less common situation is my desire level is high enough that I am ok with her desire level being low. I make eye contact, smile and tilt my head. A rapid, typically painless exchange occurs during which we assess the strength of each others preferences. If she clearly doesn't want to, she will ask 'is it ok if we connect tomorrow'? 

My rules of engagement:
I don't vibe her or initiate in any way on nights she is tired/upset.
I don't grope or initiate by putting her hand on my rocket (she dislikes both).
When I initiate - it is more of a: I miss you - than a 'we need to do it right now'. When she had more drive/desire I would 'take her' - that was more fun for both of us. 
When she defers - I do not ask/expect a 'reason'. If she isn't tired or upset, the REAL reason is likely 'she just doesn't want to'. 
Separate non sexual affection from sex: in giving and receiving
Substitute non sexual affection for sex 

Her rules of engagement:
Defer, don't reject - but follow through
Substitute non sexual affection for sex (giving and getting)
Never tease (she knows where and how to touch - that is soothing and not arousing)
She will routinely volunteer: 'Is it ok if we connect tomorrow'? This means: I know your drive is higher than mine, thank you for not crowding me. And it is also a way for her to gauge if frequency is becoming a sore spot.
Don't pretend: to O, to be turned on when she isn't 
Don't play dumb 



UOTE=Trickster;4132025]I am working on showing more affection and not expect sex. Last night I was doing that with my wife. When I went to bed, I had to read a book (Mad River) to take my mind of of sex. So my wife comes to bed and starts kissing me and kissing my neck. she says she is trying to show more affection. So by now, I am so ready to have sex. I know she wasn't. I move her hand down to touch me to let her know that she still turns me on and moved her hand away after 30 seconds or so. We just had sex the night before, so I knew she didn't want sex again. 

I honestly don't know anymore how to interpret that...Now it's 4 in the morning and I've been awake for over an hour. Can't sleep. I wake up with erections even the morning after sex.

At least when we stopped for a month, my libido stopped.I stopped getting erections. The beast is awake again. I hope I don't have to wait another 3 days. [/QUOTE]






Trickster said:


> I am working on showing more affection and not expect sex. Last night I was doing that with my wife. When I went to bed, I had to read a book (Mad River) to take my mind of of sex. So my wife comes to bed and starts kissing me and kissing my neck. she says she is trying to show more affection. So by now, I am so ready to have sex. I know she wasn't. I move her hand down to touch me to let her know that she still turns me on and moved her hand away after 30 seconds or so. We just had sex the night before, so I knew she didn't want sex again.
> 
> I honestly don't know anymore how to interpret that...Now it's 4 in the morning and I've been awake for over an hour. Can't sleep. I wake up with erections even the morning after sex.
> 
> At least when we stopped for a month, my libido stopped.I stopped getting erections. The beast is awake again. I hope I don't have to wait another 3 days.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Trickster said:


> Have you ever been on a vacation without your husband? Say with friends? Even by yourself?


I do both, I decided long ago that I was *not *going to stop enjoying life. H is always invited along on my excursions, he mostly declines. Last time I got him out of the house was in 2007 for a Venice to Pisa bicycle trip and an Alaska cruise in 2012. I go on trips (hiking/climbing or bicycle trips mostly) once per quarter. Strange thing is that’s the only time I get sex, i.e. upon my return :scratchhead:. H seems content to mostly stay home … going on his daily marathon bicycle rides (alone) and then coming home and comparing his route statistics against his ex-pro-racer friends.



MEM11363 said:


> The question I sometimes ask myself is: What would I do if: I loved my wife just the same but my desire for her disappeared? I 'hope' I would have loved her enough to share the pain by opening the marriage. I am pretty sure - if my desire died - I would not have even tried to duck and dodge, evade and avoid.


Mr. Red does not “talk” about relationships or sex or his emotional needs, the most he say is that “everything is fine” or my favorite  “why can’t you just be happy?” We don’t fight and have the same financial philosophies. I have had two psychologists tell me that he is “highly narcissistic” and I know from experience that he is a covert-aggressive type personality. With that factored in perhaps he withholds sex as a control/power mechanism or maybe he has intimacy fears? Who knows? I stopped trying to figure him out long ago.



MEM11363 said:


> My guess is that the reason you think you can't play in the 'dating market' is your H has relentlessly eroded your self confidence via the acid bath of rejection.


Agreed, going from “like rabbits” (before marriage and 3 years after) to “once a quarter if I’m lucky” for the last 23 years does a number on self-confidence. I know objectively that I am attractive and very “well preserved” rofl for my age, due to a combination of genetics and life-long fitness and, I get plenty of male visual attention when I am out and about. *If I just wanted sex then I could get it but that is not what I want.* When I first came to TAM, *Mach’s *posts and his “play-a websites” taught me about my sex rank and, it’s zero, zip, nada. That and the re-marriage by age statistics are discouraging.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If you're at this stage then why not turn to marital fireworks, marital warfare, or outright indifference?

Is there a point in staying married if you're miles apart in terms of everything else? 

In my case I mentioned I like the financial aspect of staying together (college tuition ), but if you don't have this why bother?


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## Thepoet (Sep 8, 2013)

uncool said:


> I don't think I'm really that HD... I'd be ecstatic with once week. it's just that my wife is a very hard LD.
> My marriage is at a hard stage 3 while I'm entering a stage 4 (aka considering divorce)


I would have thought once a week was LD, but I guess maybe I am slanting that because I prefer 2-3 times daily. Has anyone compiled a list of averages or found some other study which gives such? edit: I suppose there would need to be a list for each age group as it would vary wildly between them.

as to your situation, personally I would leave, but that's just me.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Well written.. 
I would just add though is that how it might be for ‘normal’. My wife has a traumatic rape in her background. I also understand it’s similar for sexual abused children. 

Sex is control for her. Control over her is a fear. <== big f’n problem when they see you wanting sex is an attempt to subvert and control them. So when stage 1 is hit and the HD starts making comments about the sex issue.... rabid responses and escalations through your stages. 

I’ve seen all those stages. Sex was awesome until she got what she wanted: The proposal. Then tapered down and became a reward/punishment system. Then after kids, when I started becoming vocal... it really became a commodity I had to ‘earn’. That when all the testing and demeaning stuff went off the charts with a totally different public persona. Eventually she became demeaning in public. So I went turtle; Stage 4. For me, I went through it much slower as I adjusted to the changing landscape of a now looney wife who treated me as an enemy and sexual predator. 

And she was a SA (serial adulterer). Still a control thing but it’d take a lot to put it in any coherent way that someone who isn’t messed up might understand. Crazy ideas I still can’t wrap my head around because they lack any reason and are illogical. Sort of a “I had to prove to myself I had a spine” which seemed to be more about ideas of control (from me over her) blending and crossing over to reasonable expectations of any relationship were some sort of ploy or attempt to control her. All those lines blended into “bad stuff” for her, so she rebelled and did everything opposite to prove some point to herself and maintain the illusion of control. 
And because she doesn’t talk about it and what’s really going on.... I was just flopping around the background knowing something was seriously wrong without being able to figure out what was going on.... Until DD and lots and lots of digging.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

This does not sound normal even for a stage 4... Are we sure there's no personality disorders involved? Esp the part about doing the opposite of the logical action...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
Your post below was very funny. That type of humor is a strong gauge of sanity. By that measure you are very sane. 

We don't entertain much either - but the house/condition of the house is a huge deal to the Mrs. 

A month back I trimmed a tree in a way that didn't 'look good' to her. She almost stroked out. Once she returned to sanity - which took an entire day - I repeatedly offered to conduct an opinion poll on a random sample of neighbors as they walked by the house. 

The poll was going to consist of two questions:
1. Of the trees you can see in our front yard (about 20), can you point to those which appear to have been recently trimmed?
2. Of the trees that were trimmed, do any look odd/or unnatural? 

She did not find this offer nearly as amusing as I did and firmly declined. 

The 'professional' tree trimmers come next week. To be fair they are removing some good sized trees that I have neither the skill nor tools to cut down, chip and stump grind. Some have 8"-12" diameter trunks. 

On the plus side, when looking at homes back in 2003 I suggested a price range from X to almost 2X. And she bought a house at the very bottom of that range. 

She will gladly volunteer us to drop $500 to take her extended family out to dinner - this the 'youngest child' showing her siblings: - how 'well' she married and
- that she can easily get her H to do what she wants

And on the same vacation where we pick up that tab, she engaged in a relentless, no-holds barred, and ultimately futile battle with me in an attempt to save a couple hundred dollars on a hotel room. 

And once she realized how indefensible her behavior was, she did something I had never before seen in our 20+ years together. She got 'turned on' at the thought of having sex with me if we 'both apologized'. Her idea. Big bright arousal smile. We DO have less sex than ideally I would like. It feels like a fair compromise to me, and she says the same. And it is true that when I am super tense, sex is fantastically relaxing. 

And as I felt my hydraulic system fire up, the Big Head, cut the master circuit breaker feeding the 'little head'. I slowly backed out of the bed, walked into the bathroom and performed a manual release. When I returned she repeated her offer. I told her I had 'taken care of myself', she then offered a backscratch and I declined. At that point she visibly deflated and we both went to sleep miserable.

At the end of that trip, my view of our marriage and her control issues was irreparably changed. She attempted for months to play the 'miscommunication card'. 

I finally said: You dug a very deep hole wreaking havoc along the way. Then doubled down by offering me a 'sex for respect' trade. And yet somehow you seem unable to refrain from continung to dig deeper still, using your miscommunication card. 





john117 said:


> Hard to tell what the real cause of the conflict is. It reminds me a great extent to the conflict in the Middle East or former Yugoslavia. After a few centuries nobody knows for sure.
> 
> Social status is funny, since we have nearly zero social life to begin with. She works from home most of the time and her colleagues are mostly overseas. I work outside the home in a normal 9-4 job :lol: Both of us agree to not socialize with coworkers, as in this day and age of corporate layoffs two spouses working and a super nice house are an invitation for layoff ('you're ok, your wife works'). She entertains a bunch of ex-pats every couple years, I rarely have anyone over except a couple of trusted friends, and that's it. Any social benefit for the house is largely innate, that is, our enjoyment in owning such a fine property.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Reality can be funny at times, tho I find humor distracts people from plots occurring in the background... Which is good.

My wife is not one to apologize or offer make up anything. If she did she may have had better luck in corporate America . In times past I would indulge her desire for things material and that would put her more "in the mood" but even that is not happening much. College tuition payments tend to put a damper on such efforts.

With BPD tho, such behaviors are expected and par for the course. So you really can't win using logic in an indefensible situation. The only thing that works is heavily enforced boundaries and predicting / ignoring behavior.


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