# Does a Loyal Spouse Really Ever Change?



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I wonder how long this thread would be "allowed" to exist without howling and pandemonium breaking out? After all, it is reasonable and okay for a Loyal Spouse to make sweeping judgements about "all betrayers" but could a Disloyal ever get away with this? Could we ever even suggest one disparaging thought without being told we are blameshifting? Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe one of the reasons that EI, and Regret, MrsAdams and I were able to successfully reconcile with our Loyal Spouses is that they were willing to a) not villify us and b) just look at their side. 

We (the Disloyals who have kind of stuck it out) have all said a zillion times that what was on our side of the street was ours and ours alone. Full weight and responsibility for the consequences of cheating fall squarely on us. But that in no way excuses Loyals from what may or may not fall on them! I know for a fact that one of the reasons I am with my Dear Hubby is that he did not just point fingers and blame me, but we worked TOGETHER as a team to see, "Well I do tend to close down when I'm grieving" "Well I do tend to get needy when I'm grieving" "Here's what I can do about my shutting down" "Here's what I can do about my neediness." 

Now we can debate for a month of Sundays, and we can disagree for a month of Sundays--doesn't bother me one bit. But what DOES bother me is one group (Loyal Spouses) acting as if it is 'okay' or even normal to cut down another whole group (Disloyal Spouses)! 

I suspect I'll get into some deep doodoo, and yet a thread JUST LIKE THIS is on page 9, talking like this about Disloyal Spouses. If that thread can stay up, I wonder if 9 pages of disparaging Loyals would be equally tolerated??

IF NOT, then I'm sorry but I'll call a spade a spade: in my opinion that's hypocritical.


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## MoonBay (Mar 10, 2013)

I don't think it's okay to constantly tear down a former disloyal who is doing their absolute best to reconcile with their BS. If they've realized how wrong their choice was, why continue to tear them down when they're doing their best to get help and prove loyalty and commitment to their spouse once again?

From the posts I've read from my time on the site, the former disloyal spouses do own the fact that the decision to cheat was 100% on them.

However, there were problems in the marriage that both spouses should work on if they want to truly reconcile. It's not solely on one spouse to, in a sense, be a slave to the other if they want to reconcile.

They should both acknowledge issues that were in the marriage and work TOGETHER to realize what problems were happening on both sides and repair it.

I think that's a point a lot of people miss when it comes to reconciliation. Both spouses must be equally committed to addressing their parts in the problems in their marriage.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Ha ha, nice turnaround AC.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Had my husband and I NOT started communicating as we should've been all along, we wouldn't have reconciled. Oh, we may have continued living with resentments building again, but for our marriage to be rebuilt, we had to work together. I had to learn how to be more understanding about his mental health... and he needed to stop using it as the excuse to push us (the kids and me) away. I had to make the effort to tell him how I was feeling, whether it was about needing more hugs and kisses rather than pinching my breastfeeding or behind, bruising it...or just needing him to make meals on occasion. And he needed me to really listen when he came home from doctor appts. and to pay attention before he goes to the appts. so he knows if there is an issue that needs to be discussed. If none of this occurred, we couldn't have reconciled. We both cheated. We both own that. We both own what we did that led to the breakdown of our marriage, and agreed what was needed from each other.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

With all due respect, I call "baloney" on you post.

Until you walk a mile in my shoes you can never never never never never never never never ever possibly know what I went/go though. 

So you are disqualified. 

But because I respect you as a poster, I will try to help.

An analogy...

Let us say you had your best friend/roommate in your car. She was tired and wanted to sleep and asked you drive easy for a while. She falls asleep and instead you decide to rip around at crazy speeds, running stop signs, passing stopped school buses letting kids out...and your kicking your head back, laughing and feeling invincible. You have never felt like this before and may never again. But you love the feeling!!

Then, you lose control further and crash. Your best friend/roommate loses her legs in the accident and you are without a scratch. 

Feel bad? Of course.

Wish it hadn't happened? Absolutely.

But your only sorry due to the crash.

You want to help your friend and be with her. You'll make it right. You'll never drive like that again- or at least try not to. 

But what about her? She can never run again. Never. She can never jump and spin and skip and take 2 stairs at a time again. For now, she's a total cripple.

Ever been a cripple? No.

Know what it's like to become a sudden invalid? No.

Oh sure, with surgeries and such your friend can learn to walk again. Maybe, just maybe, if they are deeply courageous and fortunate they can get prosthetic blades and even run a bit.

But that's about it. For the rest of their lives they will never be able to do the things they used to. Never. Only a part of.

And what about you?

Can you sill run, dance, jump, spin.... Oh yes. You can. Like nothing even ever happened. 

So are you remorseful? Maybe. And even so, can you have your legs cut off and get down in that wheelchair? Well, can you? CAN YOU??

No. You cannot. 

And you never will.

Never.

Your life goes on as fully as before, but your friend's never will. And you will never get it. Never know the silent triggers that hit. Never see the video of you driving so joyfully and carelessly that plays in your friend's mind over and over and yet over again. You don't even get to see it once. But then again, you produced and directed the video. Hell, you even starred in it. Top billing.

So you can think it so unfair for those invalids to be critical of those of you with both your legs on and with dancing shoes snuggly on all you want to, but your revolver has no bullets in it.

I mean, you shot them all into your best friend's back. Look closely, they're still there. Even if they don't mention it. They're still there.

So I will be critical as I have _earned_ that right.

Lastly, and I mean this with all my heart- I am simply telling you how it is. I have no grudge against you or any other betrayer here.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

My bell curve comment on the other thread applies equally here.

Most non-cheating spouses won't change, nor will they take responsibility for the cheating that did transpire.

Some will, following along the curve.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

I wish I could get Mrs. Gus to post here.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Thatbpguy, AC HAS been on the other side. So, yes, she DOES know what she's talking about. And she's right. In order for the marriage to be rebuilt, both sides need to work together. Otherwise, what the point? Oh, and my husband did the same thing I did... turned to an OSF for emotional support. So, yes, I've been on both sides, too.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Thatbpguy, AC HAS been on the other side. So, yes, she DOES know what she's talking about. And she's right. In order for the marriage to be rebuilt, both sides need to work together. Otherwise, what the point? Oh, and my husband did the same thing I did... turned to an OSF for emotional support. So, yes, I've been on both sides, too.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


I do get what you are saying. I am not as heartless as I may appear.

But, to me, there is a flaw in what you say.

Now, I want to say that I may be wring but in my direct experiences with revenge betrayals, they are borne out of just that- revenge. The original betrayer doesn't feel the same full sense of the revenge betrayal as they were the cause of even that. The original betrayal seems to carry more weight.

And for those who can still make a go of it, what a wonderful blessing. I tried. Twice. Bleeding all the way to the bitter end.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

My first wife was righteous in her judgement of cheaters, until she became one. It's not like cheaters were a group of 100% deviants before but then a group of 100% descent people with poor judgement and reasons afterwards. It's somewhere between those extremes.

The reality is that good people learn from their mistakes and especially from the ones where they caused someone else pain. People who justify and blame shift rather than owning what they do (or have done) to others fit the definition of a bad person to me. 

Serial cheaters, physical abusive men and women, people who who tear down others to feel better, bullies, scam artists, etc. These are all low character things that many people do. Now there are a few more subtle items as well that I think show lack of character. Blanket statement judgements are one of those and it sure is easy to fall into.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> I do get what you are saying. I am not as heartless as I may appear.
> 
> But, to me, there is a flaw in what you say.
> 
> ...


And I respect the fact that you tried. I also would have respected you had you felt it just couldn't be done, for your own marriage, even without attempting to reconcile. 

I'm sorry, thatbpguy, but reading your posts, I see sugar-coated insults to our character. Seriously. You put each of us who have successfully reconciled with our spouses, and built stronger relationships with them, into the same little box as those who were not remorseful and chose their AP over their spouses. We. are. not. your. ex-wife. 

As for my husband, it wasn't born out of revenge. However, some could view it as such. We weren't communicating. He felt we were too far gone at that point, and he was chatting with a woman we had both met in a game. We both had, at one point, considered her a friend. He needed someone to talk to... she was there, I was not. You don't think it's gutwrenching to see my husband say that she was sexy and beautiful, when he hadn't uttered those words to me in YEARS, even before my own EA? Well, fortunately for me, my husband agrees with me.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> thatbpguy.....So you are saying that infidelity has levels ? Some are worse than others?
> 
> My husband went LOOKING to have an affair....yes i emasculated him, yes i took away all self esteem..but he still knew exactly what he was doing. His affair was just as wrong as my affair.....Did I deserve it? Yes I did...
> 
> ...


Yes and no- I am going to be two faced here...

When I was mod at the other board I had a lot of private interaction with posters as this whole subject was like therapy for me. 

It was the general opinion that revenge betrayals were more understood by the now betrayed as they realized they caused it. Since all trust was lost in the relationship the revenge betrayal lost it's meaning to a certain degree. Now, to be sure, two wrongs never make a right and I have zero tolerance about revenge betrayals, but there does seem to be a difference.

One last thought...

I actually can understand how some betrayals can be heavily caused by the betrayed. And sometimes I can not find it within me to fully fault the betrayer in extreme circumstances. It is still totally wrong, but understandable. 

Honestly, I'm not a total ogre. I mean, I only _look_ like Shrek.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> thatbpguy.....So you are saying that infidelity has levels ? Some are worse than others?
> 
> My husband went LOOKING to have an affair....yes i emasculated him, yes i took away all self esteem..but he still knew exactly what he was doing. His affair was just as wrong as my affair.....Did I deserve it? Yes I did...
> 
> ...



nobody deserves to be cheated upon. not in revenge, not for any reason. leave the marriage instead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Any problems in a marriage are the problems of both spouses equally. But the blame is not often equal. When the problem is infidelity, the blame falls squarely on the DS, and it is up to both to solve the problem. For all other types of problems, those threads can be posted in one of many forum sections that are not CWI.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> the old saying Marriage takes two to make it and two to break it is certainly accurate..


This is a paradox and only one of these can be true. It takes two to make it is true.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Thatbpguy, AC HAS been on the other side. So, yes, she DOES know what she's talking about. And she's right. In order for the marriage to be rebuilt, both sides need to work together. Otherwise, what the point? Oh, and my husband did the same thing I did... turned to an OSF for emotional support. So, yes, I've been on both sides, too.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


There are some of us who have been loyal and also disloyal spouses.

This might give us a unique take on things. Personally it's a take I'd rather not have, but it is what it is.

And for people who say "I would never, ever cheat!" I used to think that. But I did cheat. Yeah, it was an accidental revenge affair, but it was still wrong. And I owned up to it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> of course revenge affairs are more understood...especially if committed by a betrayed husband!
> 
> would that be the case if committed by a betrayed wife?
> 
> ...


I took full responsibility for my revenge affair. It was wrong. I should never have done it.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> of course revenge affairs are more understood...especially if committed by a betrayed husband!
> 
> would that be the case if committed by a betrayed wife?
> 
> ...


Revenge affair understood? Most of us men aren't wired to handle another mans junk in our wive's junk. It would be a constant replay. Similarly I think most women aren't wired very well for their man to feel love for another woman. That's why I think revenge is more often rationalized when it's the man doing it. The act of revenge make the person he cheated with a means to an end. Obviously not love.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> of course revenge affairs are more understood...*especially if committed by a betrayed husband*!
> 
> would that be the case if committed by a betrayed wife?
> 
> ...


I feel like I really need to preface this all with only sometimes, my opinion only, my perception only, etc etc. Particularly in light of recent threads.

I have seen some posts where a betrayed husband who goes on to engage in a RA and some of the posters replying back with the tone of, "having an RA was not the right thing to do but who could hardly blame you after she emasculated you?" OTOH, the same type of post from a BS/wife who engages in a RA.... well, the tone in response is often along the lines of, "it's absolutely wrong and your now BS should kick your azz to the curb and not look back."

Generally speaking about those who may think in those terms in regards to adultery, those types also tend to think of promiscuous men as players and promiscuous women as s*uts or wh0res. The latter terms are far more negative than the former. 

My FIL is one of those people who thinks this way. He knows his son, my WS, cheated and although he did not find the behavior overwhelmingly acceptable, I can only imagine his reaction if I had been the WS or say, his daughter had been the WS instead of the BS in her recently ended marriage of 30 years. They would have iced her out for a period of time, maybe even a long time (they are good at the silent treatment, etc) but if it were me who cheated on their son, I would have been dead to them whether we stayed together or not.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

TryingToRecover said:


> I feel like I really need to preface this all with only sometimes, my opinion only, my perception only, etc etc. Particularly in light of recent threads.
> 
> I have seen some posts where a betrayed husband who goes on to engage in a RA and some of the posters replying back with the tone of, "having an RA was not the right thing to do but who could hardly blame you after she emasculated you?" OTOH, the same type of post from a BS/wife who engages in a RA.... well, the tone in response is often along the lines of, "it's absolutely wrong and your now BS should kick your azz to the curb and not look back."
> 
> ...


You point out a double standard and I agree completely that it's there. But there's an opposing double standard to match it. If you'd fallen in love with another man but not had sex with him, your husband's mother-in-law (your mom) would be semi rationalize it as being your husbands fault for not making you happy. Now if your husband had an emotional affair then his mother-in-law would want to choke the life out of him.

You made a point to express that the comment was only your opinion so I'm doing the same. It's my opinion that while there are indeed double standards, they are often offsetting.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Thundarr...I was quoting thatbpguy...those were his words.....not mine


Apologies then . I'm a fan of the reconciliation you and your husband have accomplished.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

TryingToRecover said:


> I feel like I really need to preface this all with only sometimes, my opinion only, my perception only, etc etc. Particularly in light of recent threads.
> 
> I have seen some posts where a betrayed husband who goes on to engage in a RA and some of the posters replying back with the tone of, "having an RA was not the right thing to do but who could hardly blame you after she emasculated you?" OTOH, the same type of post from a BS/wife who engages in a RA.... well, the tone in response is often along the lines of, "it's absolutely wrong and your now BS should kick your azz to the curb and not look back."
> 
> ...


My response to a woman in a revenge affair? Same as to a man. "Well, that probably wasn't the wisest thing you ever did, and it was wrong, but I can see why it happened."


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> My response to a woman in a revenge affair? Same as to a man. "Well, that probably wasn't the wisest thing you ever did, and it was wrong, but I can see why it happened."


That's the outside looking in response though. The question is what's the response of most men when their wife has a revenge affair vs the response from most women when their man has a revenge affair. More times than not, a man will get hung up on the POV aspect worse than the woman. It's a double standard. In that regard it seems unfair. But I think there are opposing double standards that are equally unfair.

I'm sure it seem like I'm getting off on a tangent. Maybe I am?


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> I wonder how long this thread would be "allowed" to exist without howling and pandemonium breaking out? After all, it is reasonable and okay for a Loyal Spouse to make sweeping judgements about "all betrayers" but could a Disloyal ever get away with this? Could we ever even suggest one disparaging thought without being told we are blameshifting? Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe one of the reasons that EI, and Regret, MrsAdams and I were able to successfully reconcile with our Loyal Spouses is that they were willing to a) not villify us and b) just look at their side.
> 
> We (the Disloyals who have kind of stuck it out) have all said a zillion times that what was on our side of the street was ours and ours alone. Full weight and responsibility for the consequences of cheating fall squarely on us. But that in no way excuses Loyals from what may or may not fall on them! I know for a fact that one of the reasons I am with my Dear Hubby is that he did not just point fingers and blame me, but we worked TOGETHER as a team to see, "Well I do tend to close down when I'm grieving" "Well I do tend to get needy when I'm grieving" "Here's what I can do about my shutting down" "Here's what I can do about my neediness."
> 
> ...


I'm a BS and get what you're saying. 

I don't believe I'm guilty of cutting down WS's on TAM but I know for a fact I am very guilty of using my WS's affair to cut him down during arguments (even arguments totally unrelated to the affair) despite all of the effort he has made in reconciliation. I have done my utmost best to stop doing this, particularly in the last 4-6 months. I can admit now I was using it as my trump card, get out of jail free card....whatever "worked." No matter what I did, whatever he was doing was worse because he chose to cheat.

I have since realized that although I have the right to be angry about the affair, I don't have the right to beat my WS over the head with the affair or verbally accost him at will. Especially during arguments that have nothing to do with the affair. But also during discussions or arguments over the affair. What I was doing certainly wasn't constructive or helping anyone, not even me.

Pre-affair I was severely depressed and grieving over a few life issues and at the time I refused to do anything about it. The vast majority of the time I spent crying or angry, mostly acting out angry; I'm sure I was a real "joy" to live with. Our communication was terrible and we never did anything enjoyable together, the latter of which was very often my choice as I didn't enjoy being around anyone and made that abundantly clear at times.

Did I deserve to be cheated on? No, but my WS owns that awful choice. However, I can admit the state of our marriage was, in fact, BAD and I didn't do anything to make it better, knew it was in the pits and really "didn't care," or so I chose to believe at the time. I had pretty much convinced myself I didn't care about anything, I was in a very bad and very uncooperative state but it was my choice to be like that and STAY like that despite knowing things were not going well.... or actually, unbelievably bad.

I'll never take responsibility for WS's choices and he can't be held responsible for mine, but I can certainly see the fire that was our bad marriage and the gasoline I poured on it almost daily. He also was no saint pre-affair but I'm definitely not blameless as it pertains to the state of our marriage.

Hope that makes sense and wasn't just a bunch of rambling.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

TryingToRecover said:


> I'm a BS and get what you're saying.
> 
> I don't believe I'm guilty of cutting down WS's on TAM but I know for a fact I am very guilty of using my WS's affair to cut him down during arguments (even arguments totally unrelated to the affair) despite all of the effort he has made in reconciliation. I have done my utmost best to stop doing this, particularly in the last 4-6 months. I can admit now I was using it as my trump card, get out of jail free card....whatever "worked." No matter what I did, whatever he was doing was worse because he chose to cheat.
> 
> ...


Comments like yours should be required reading for BSs at TAM who participate in CWF section. Point being that all BS's and all WS's are unique to their situation. The WS posting and asking for advice (or blame shifting often) is not my WS and is therefore not the recipient of my anger.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: Does a Loyal Spouse Really Ever Change?*



TryingToRecover said:


> My FIL is one of those people who thinks this way. He knows his son, my WS, cheated and although he did not find the behavior overwhelmingly acceptable, I can only imagine his reaction if I had been the WS or say, his daughter had been the WS instead of the BS in her recently ended marriage of 30 years. They would have iced her out for a period of time, maybe even a long time (they are good at the silent treatment, etc) but if it were me who cheated on their son, I would have been dead to them whether we stayed together or not.


My ex FIL was one who had an affair early in his relationship, and I dont think he ever felt remorse or even in the wrong. The apple fell close with his daughter, whose affair he pretty much believed was somehow my fault.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> You point out a double standard and I agree completely that it's there. But there's an opposing double standard to match it. If you'd fallen in love with another man but not had sex with him, your husband's mother-in-law (your mom) would be semi rationalize it as being your husbands fault for not making you happy. Now if your husband had an emotional affair then his mother-in-law would want to choke the life out of him.
> 
> You made a point to express that the comment was only your opinion so I'm doing the same. It's my opinion that while there are indeed double standards, they are often offsetting.


You're probably right in a general sense and I get what you're saying but personally, my MIL would side with her children in almost any situation, to the point of defying all logic. She has never liked anyone her children have been married to/in a relationship with. 

My own mom, well.... she's different. My mom has been married multiple times and all of her divorces due to adultery, or adultery being the final nail in the coffin. She has been a WS, BS, madhatter, single OW and her view on adultery is mostly one of a WS with no apparent remorse. Her take on my WS's affair is basically that I should have dealt with the issues I was experiencing she wants to believe sent my WS looking elsewhere . My WS has attempted to correct her on this but it falls on deaf ears. I suspect part of that is her maintaining her role as being mostly non-supportive of me, which goes back decades.

Around the time of dday, I would have LOVED it had my mom wanted to choke the life out of my WS. Well, not literally but had she taken up for me and supported me in that manner I likely would have fallen over from shock!

Being a mom myself and our oldest (early 20's), she had a longer term boyfriend who eventually cheated on her and I wanted to, as you said, choke the life out of him. Taking that point of view I can definitely see what you're saying.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

Lon said:


> My ex FIL was one who had an affair early in his relationship, and I dont think he ever felt remorse or even in the wrong. The apple fell close with his daughter, whose affair he pretty much believed was somehow my fault.


Although my WS does is not 100% certain, he believes his father cheated and perhaps several times. WS said in retrospect a lot of the signs were there. If he really ever did cheat and my MIL ever found out, it was definitely all rug swept. Then again, his parents pretty much rug sweep everything.

WS has been dealing with his FOO issues in IC and has come a long way.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

I think the betrayed gravitate toward generalizations like "cheaters are bad", "I hate cheaters", to avoid coming right out and saying "my spouse bad", "I hate my spouse".

Its tough enough being betrayed, but to constantly have to name your spouse as the infidel get to be too much. Easier to lash out at "cheaters".

Also, a BS is in pretty dire need of something to feel good about. Hence, the new-found superiority complex in the area of loyalty.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> Since my revenge affair seems to become part of the topic, I will address it. First, any kind of an affair is a choice of the ws. The better and more honorable option is too divorce. During a period after my wife's affair, I thought in reality it was too much for me to deal with, divorce would be the best option. For a long time after her affair, I felt she was sorry, but not remorseful, and felt the whole thing was rug swept. A post from another thread:
> 
> *the WW told her husband all of the sexy details including how good the OM was in bed and how good he made her feel.
> 
> ...


Great post John - glad to see you are in a different place from when you started posting here. No one should judge you for the RA I certainly don't. From Mrs.JA's posts she does seem genuinely sorry and remorseful and forgiving of your RA. I'm just glad you and your wife were able to move forward.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

I am working on communication. It's an area that we had problems with prior to his affair. Sometimes I was too blunt - there's a nicer way to say things - but on the other hand, sometimes I didn't address issues right away that needed to be brought up, and I'd let those issues "simmer" and I'd get upset about them when I should have been discussing them sooner. 

My husband is working on his communication issues, too, but that's for another thread. I'm owning my end of the problem here. 

I'm also happy to say that my husband likes hugs. And he has asked for more of them. I wasn't giving him enough. I was falling down in the hug department. Guilty as charged. I'm very lucky to have a husband who's a hugger, and I didn't appreciate it! Now I am hugging. And hugging. And (well, this was my idea) if he's sitting down, he has to tolerate a smootch on the top of his head along with the hug. Tough. He just has to deal with it.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> IF NOT, then I'm sorry but I'll call a spade a spade: in my opinion that's hypocritical.


Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't think there really is any "loyal spouse" that would say there wasn't problems in the marriage on both sides.

But when the other side decides to gratify themselves outside the marriage, that act, which can inflict a great amount of emotional pain, tends to render the fact that the problems could have been discussed null and void. At least for a while while the pain is raw and, well, painful.

EVERY marriage has their problems. I tried to work on our marriage, tried talking about it(even though I wasn't the one that cheated). But once I found out she was cheating, then she took it a step further.

So no, BS's are not always innocent with regards to the state of the marriage. But for some/most of us, once our spouses gratify themselves with someone outside the marriage, well sorry to say, you took it a BIG step further adding a much LARGER problem, IMO. So when you say its hypocritical, its not really. Because the problems in the marriage, and getting f*****d by someone other than your spouse are two completely different problems at two completely different levels. (sorry I had to put it that way in the last sentence, but that's the way it is and that's the way people need to be reminded of just what cheating is)


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> of course revenge affairs are more understood...especially if committed by a betrayed husband!


Not to me. Its just as bad. 

But it does put a different spin on your H giving you a second chance. Because once he cheated too, there is no second chance to give. You both ended up cheating. 

So I never knew JA cheated, even in revenge. So IMO you both decide to reconcile, make it a good marriage again, and neither of you can claim the "I gave him/her a second chance" You BOTH gave each other a 2nd chance.



> would that be the case if committed by a betrayed wife?


Sure would. I don't discriminate based on gender with cheating.




> Look...I am totally and completely to blame...when my husband had his revenge affair


No, you are not. Its no excuse.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Couple angles in this thread. 
One angle is the bashed of WS’s in this forum. For me, it’s situational. I look for signs of remorse and signs the WS is being proactive at trying to help their BS rather than trying to protect themselves. So, I don’t bash. The other kind though, that blur marriage issues with ‘why’… I’m not so kind. And I get the cripples here still in pain. A WS is a target for that pain. Should be expected. Rather than defend, maybe try to give them some tools to help move beyond that pain.

Second angle. The BS changed drastically post DD. That’s what most WS don’t seem to get. Your BS is not, nor can they ever be, the same person again. Trauma does that. You poisoned them, and they rotted inside. There can be healing, but there will always be scars. Whoever you think you knew before, they aren’t that person anymore. I like the anti-hero analogy. Fallen hero, corrupted now, hollowed out. They will rebuild, but into what? The WS introduced a lot of very strong dark feelings where there previously weren’t toward them. Individuals handle this differently… A WS can’t control or direct it. 

To date myself with “leave it to beaver references”. What happens to Ward Cleaver when he discovers Jane has been screwing like crazy any swinging d!ck that knocks on her door. Ward understands Beaver and Wally will be lost to him and that he’ll actually have to move out and pay Jane if he leaves. So now he’s a kind of hostage. And she’s sorry? Ward won’t be the same, that drink and pipe ready for him when he gets home loses it value. The world is a darker place where it’s no longer “us” against it… June is across that trench too. It’s him against the world. And keep in mind that is a surreal world of bliss for a man… reality is most wives are no where near June Cleaver angelic to start with. They are typically nagging, nearly sexless, and entitled princesses with what ‘they expect any man they’d be with’ would provide. Remember WS’s are selfish as a common theme.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Racer said:


> Couple angles in this thread.
> One angle is the bashed of WS’s in this forum. For me, it’s situational. I look for signs of remorse and signs the WS is being proactive at trying to help their BS rather than trying to protect themselves. So, I don’t bash. The other kind though, that blur marriage issues with ‘why’… I’m not so kind. And I get the cripples here still in pain. A WS is a target for that pain. Should be expected. Rather than defend, maybe try to give them some tools to help move beyond that pain.
> 
> *Second angle. The BS changed drastically post DD. That’s what most WS don’t seem to get. Your BS is not, nor can they ever be, the same person again. Trauma does that. You poisoned them, and they rotted inside. There can be healing, but there will always be scars. Whoever you think you knew before, they aren’t that person anymore. I like the anti-hero analogy. Fallen hero, corrupted now, hollowed out. They will rebuild, but into what? The WS introduced a lot of very strong dark feelings where there previously weren’t toward them. Individuals handle this differently… A WS can’t control or direct it. *
> ...


The consequences of infidelity are beyond everyone's control. When you damage someone on this level you do change them forever. That is the sad reality of acting without thinking or acting entitled to the affair because of perceived defects int he marriage or relationship.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Why must we try and put people in singular boxes.

There are loyal spouses who are a$$hats in every other aspect of their life and behavior.

There are loyal spouses who are amazing people in almost every way but their disloyal spouse still cheats.

There are disloyal people who are just entitled, narcissistic jerks who see the world as their own personal candy store without any restrictions on what they should be allowed to eat.

There are disloyal people who are good people. They love their spouse, love their family, are good citizens, but have something inside themselves where they let themselves falter during a time of weakness. It doesn't excuse what they did, but they are not the same as the entitled person.

I'm harsh on SOME cheaters. I'm more lenient on others. I do believe the "bad" cheaters out number the "decent" cheaters, but that's just an opinion from the cheaters I've known. I know I could never R with a cheater, but that's something from within me. My issue is once trust is broken, I can never fully trust again. It's an odd circumstance, trust is precious and once trust is broken, the only way to regain trust is to trust. I know that sounds convoluted, but it's not.

There are a number of problems in most marriages where cheating happens. The BS doesn't get elevated to "angel" who is pristine white with no flaws, just because cheating happened. They still had issues in the marriage, but the cheating has to be dealt with as an isolated issue first, then both spouses can look at the marriage from a 50/50 standpoint.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> *The more remorseful I have become...the more my husband trusts me.* The more he trusts me, the more he lets go, the more he lets go, the closer we become, the closer we become, the more he helps me do the work.


No truer words.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Dad&Hubby said:


> There are a number of problems in most marriages where cheating happens. The BS doesn't get elevated to "angel" who is pristine white with no flaws, just because cheating happened.


Agreed, and then you lost me...


> They still had issues in the marriage, but the cheating has to be dealt with as an isolated issue first, then both spouses can look at the marriage from a 50/50 standpoint.


Why? Let’s think about this. Whatever the issue was prior to the adultery obviously wasn’t something the BS wanted to change or work on. What make you think post adultery that they would be even more encouraged to change this? And what is 50/50? Even during the affairs, its normal script for WS’s to magnify issues to use as excuses for their own behavior. So is it really a critical marriage problem or is it an excuse and really just a pet peeve?

And well… you are dealing with a much changed BS. Things they might have ‘given up’ out of consideration for the WS are re-introduced. And if the WS is remorseful, they too aren’t the same as before. Basically, those pre-affair problems are muddy waters and there are muddy waters ahead with new behaviors and perceptions of ‘right and wrong’. Essentially, the dynamics aren’t the same anymore. So, you can’t address problems until the new dynamics sort out to ‘how it is now’. 

Example; Pre-affair, wife nagged and asked me to give up hobbies. Post-affair, I recognize a guy who doesn’t “do stuff” isn’t attractive. So I do my hobbies, she nags, I don’t care. Her short term ‘poor me’ pales in comparison with the longer term difference of seeing a husband who goes out and has adventures versus a stay at home picking up around the house. So she nags about the house… too f’n bad. What she wants is no longer my priority; trying that path brought me misery.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Racer said:


> Agreed, and then you lost me...
> 
> Why?


Because, the problems which could have been/should have been worked out before someone went out and got it on with someone else now take center stage.

Now you have 50/50 responsibility in the marriage, plus one instance of infidelity.




> Let’s think about this. Whatever the issue was prior to the adultery *obviously wasn’t something the BS wanted to change or work on*.


Wrong. I always tried to get my x-wife to become more involved as a couple. Talked to her about it, kept bringing up her constant rejections of my initiation of affection, sex, etc. Nothing worked.

So I chalked it up to the daily trials of parenthood. 

So here you are putting it on the BS. Sometimes the BS likes the status quo or doesn't think there is a problem, others do.




> What make you think post adultery that they would be even more encouraged to change this?


That depends on the cheater. If they want to save the marriage, then they have to deal with that huge elephant in the room before they can work together on the marriage. If the elephant is still there, you are going to be worried about all of its sh*t to clean up, much less stomping you into the ground.




> And what is 50/50? Even during the affairs, *its normal script for WS’s to magnify issues to use as excuses for their own behavior*. So is it really a critical marriage problem or is it an excuse and really just a pet peeve?


Yes, its critical. If they are magnifying issues to justify their behavior, as you just said, then not dealing with their behavior first is nothing but cowtowing and validation of their infidelity.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Lon said:


> *Any problems in a marriage are the problems of both spouses equally. * But the blame is not often equal. When the problem is infidelity, the blame falls squarely on the DS, and it is up to both to solve the problem. For all other types of problems, those threads can be posted in one of many forum sections that are not CWI.


I don't believe the bolded. I believe that if the problems were created or started during the marriage, both _may_ be equally responsible, but this is not a blanket statement that fits all. How can you blame a spouse for problems that the other spouse had/ existed prior to the marriage and they brought them into and continued them within the M. They weren't truthful from the start and hid these issues from the other, so how can you say the naive/ uninformed one is responsible for something they didn't know about and had no knowledge or part of?? 

This happened in my M, where my WW was cheating from the beginning and prior to our M (and has a history of it that I didn't find out until just recently), so I don't think we ever even had a M from the start, just a legal civil union. When she chose to step out on the M, no matter how much she claimed had changed within its dynamic, or I was responsible for, when it existed since before she met me how can I be responsible for that?? Is someone responsible for what their spouse did with an exe before they had ever even met them? Like I say I don't believe it is a one size fits all responsibility pattern, and it takes 2 to marry but only 1 to divorce.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Racer said:


> Why? Let’s think about this. Whatever the issue was prior to the adultery obviously wasn’t something the BS wanted to change or work on. What make you think post adultery that they would be even more encouraged to change this?


Well Racer,

In theory; maybe because the BS is wise enough to realize that if he/she is going to attempt R; what's the point of having the same ole marriage. There needs to be a re-set or you might just as well go on with a D.

But that's just a theory. In reality, I think you, like me; have found that to be easier said than done.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Racer said:


> Agreed, and then you lost me...


I was just saying that a BS doesn't instantly get absolved of any and all poor behaviors simply because they were cheated on. Now, immediately after Dday isn't the time to address them, but that goes into the next point.



> Why? Let’s think about this. Whatever the issue was prior to the adultery obviously wasn’t something the BS wanted to change or work on. What make you think post adultery that they would be even more encouraged to change this? And what is 50/50? Even during the affairs, its normal script for WS’s to magnify issues to use as excuses for their own behavior. So is it really a critical marriage problem or is it an excuse and really just a pet peeve?


I completely agree with you. Maybe I wasn't clear in what I was trying to convey...see below



> And well… you are dealing with a much changed BS. Things they might have ‘given up’ out of consideration for the WS are re-introduced. And if the WS is remorseful, they too aren’t the same as before. Basically, those pre-affair problems are muddy waters and there are muddy waters ahead with new behaviors and perceptions of ‘right and wrong’. Essentially, the dynamics aren’t the same anymore. So, you can’t address problems until the new dynamics sort out to ‘how it is now’.
> 
> Example; Pre-affair, wife nagged and asked me to give up hobbies. Post-affair, I recognize a guy who doesn’t “do stuff” isn’t attractive. So I do my hobbies, she nags, I don’t care. Her short term ‘poor me’ pales in comparison with the longer term difference of seeing a husband who goes out and has adventures versus a stay at home picking up around the house. So she nags about the house… too f’n bad. What she wants is no longer my priority; trying that path brought me misery.


When I said the 50/50, I'm simply using the term 50/50 as inter-marriage issues. Issues where both parties have accountability and responsibility. Such as when you discuss your hobbies. Your wife is responsible for her damned if you do/damned if you don't attitude towards you. You're responsible for how you react to her. (PS I think you're doing the right thing).

What I was saying is that immediately after Dday, the cheating has to be dealt with. The WS needs to fix the issues within themselves as to why they cheated (this is assuming a WS who the BS is willing to R with and the WS is doing the right things). The BS has to address the things within themselves as to move past the hurt etc. etc. (I'm not going to list out everything involved, I think you get the point).

Once both people are on somewhat of a stable ground, THEN the WS and the BS can work on the problems that existed before the cheating occurred.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I want to go back to the beginning of this thread..I have thought about it all night.
> 
> I was not quite sure where AC was going with this topic.i responded the way I thought was fitting but the more I have thought about it the more confused I have become.
> 
> ...


Mrs.JA fantastic, absolutely fantastic post. You also need to realize you are rare. i'm glad you and JA made it. :smthumbup:

Your posts add so much to this forum. Thank you for putting yourself out there without excuses but in total truth. Like I said before I can see though this computer screen why he stuck with you. That was the wise thing to do.


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

Mrs. Adams just a question.

Was an issue for Mr. Adams the answer to the question "Why?" 

From your writings I understand that the true healing really started when you understood what Mr. Adams was looking for in Remorse, even though you had worked through the years on making your marriage strong.

Was it also an acceptance by Mr. Adams of the answer that there is no true answer to the question as to "why" the infidelity occurred, i.e. no real reason but as you have stated your selfishness at the time?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Squeakr said:


> I don't believe the bolded. I believe that if the problems were created or started during the marriage, both _may_ be equally responsible, but this is not a blanket statement that fits all. How can you blame a spouse for problems that the other spouse had/ existed prior to the marriage and they brought them into and continued them within the M. They weren't truthful from the start and hid these issues from the other, so how can you say the naive/ uninformed one is responsible for something they didn't know about and had no knowledge or part of??
> 
> This happened in my M, where my WW was cheating from the beginning and prior to our M (and has a history of it that I didn't find out until just recently), so I don't think we ever even had a M from the start, just a legal civil union. When she chose to step out on the M, no matter how much she claimed had changed within its dynamic, or I was responsible for, when it existed since before she met me how can I be responsible for that?? Is someone responsible for what their spouse did with an exe before they had ever even met them? Like I say I don't believe it is a one size fits all responsibility pattern, and it takes 2 to marry but only 1 to divorce.


I am not responsible for another person - how my spouse acts, reacts, feels, does: all on her. So while the blame, or cause, of a problem is never mutual - it is always an individual root cause - the problem to deal with IN A MARRIAGE is for both to deal with. My ex cheated on me, that was her choice - she had other paths she could have taken but she decided to follow that one. I refuse to accept responsibility for that, yet there I was now having to make my own choice and figure it out within the marriage. Both of us had to deal with it, we were still equally responsible for the state of the marriage.

My actions, and lack thereof, prior to her infidelity certainly affected a number of available paths she could have taken but chose not to, I will accept the blame for not offering an appealing looking option for her to look down.

But blame and consequence are completely different things. Life is not always fair - we sometimes have the responsibility of dealing with the consequences of other peoples actions - that is an inescapable fact of life and one that is even more crucial after entering into marriage with another.


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

Yes, thank you for your response. 

I have always been an analytical person, ie. cause and effect and this accepting the answer of "because" always "Haunts" me. I am forever looking a reason.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Truth seeker...your comments have touched me in a special way. I know you are a straight shooter. I know you can be very hard on others ...quite frankly..you scare me.
> 
> I have since coming to tam...tried to be as honest as I possibly can. I don't want to paint a picture of myself that is not real. Oh..I am a good person...but I did a horrible thing...and I am well aware what my selfishness nearly destroyed. I want acceptance...for who I am...not who I was...I don't like who I was either...so I understand how injured spouses see me as the devil.
> 
> ...


Mrs.JA I'm a straight shooter but I don't consider myself nasty or a "WS headhunter". you can look at my previous posts to confirm that. I've seen infidelity from every angle you can imagine from the remorseless wife of someone close to me having a baby with another man to someone lying on their deathbed crying out that their spouse was cheating as they lay there dying. In addition I have been cheated on in a LTR. So I call bs when I see it.

My opinion might be the minority but i don't view all affairs the same for example a person who has a ONS v. a person who cheats for an extended period of time perhaps even years are not the same thing to me. *You made ONE bad decision and have spent 30 years looking for a solution* that is most certainly not the same thing as some other WS we have seen here - you are not in their category. you have NEVER once blamed your husband. You *DESERVED* a second chance in my view and JA was smart enough to give you one. You are one of the good guys and please keep posting here.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> the old saying Marriage takes two to make it and two to break it is certainly accurate..


The fact that marriages go through hard times doesn't mean they are broken. That's life. Sometimes it's tough. My wife and I made various life decisions, as a couple that put short term pressure on us for long term gain. I honoured the commitments I had made. Her decision, unilaterally, was to not talk about it when she found things hard, and have an affair. This was not a single night of indiscretion in a moment of weakness. This was over six months. 

So it took one to break our marriage.



thatbpguy said:


> With all due respect, I call "baloney" on you post.
> 
> Until you walk a mile in my shoes you can never never never never never never never never ever possibly know what I went/go though.
> 
> ...


Yep. Exact same scars. Don't let it break your life. When those legs get amputated, you can either sit back in your wheelchair and grow bitter, or you can be Douglas Bader and reach for the sky.

In my twenties, I believed the perfect relationship would make me happy and secure. I now believe that I have to find those things within, and it works much better. 

By the way, I think in the end my wife paid a price too. More than me in some ways. The shadow of the affair is always in the background, she has to live with herself, and being a person with a conscience, she finds that hard. And she's always a little afraid I may still decide to leave.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

A couple of comments after thinking about MJA's post.



Mrs. John Adams said:


> Infidelity changes everyone. It takes away a sanctified part of a marriage...trust, hope, faith, innocence, purity, assurance...on and on.
> 
> You can capture those things again...with a new relationship after divorce...or you can rebuild them with the WS. Either way...it takes time and effort to do so. It is not easy to overcome.


I never captured them again in the same way, but I don't think they would return in another relationship either. 

If it's not too personal a question, I would be very interested in Mr JA's views of what trust means in your situation.



Mrs. John Adams said:


> JA is quiet and analytical...he is serious...he is also a grudge holder..and a very distrusting person by nature. He is confident and a non worrier.
> 
> I am exuberant...I love to have fun...I am friendly and outgoing. I bury things that hurt me...I trust easily..and I am always the first to say I am sorry. I worry about everything and am terribly insecure.
> 
> So we are opposite. I admire him for who he is and he loves me because if who I am. He is strong where I am weak and vice versa.


Ouch. This is us. Except you at least came clean at once. Mrs Wazza never did 100%. Just sat on it and hoped it would all go away. Which is exactly what gets an analytical person like me digging. 

But is Mr JA holding grudges? If that were me, inside my head I am simply aware that what happened once can happen again. The guard will never again be totally lowered.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Whats all this talk about change....hell I thought we all subscriped to the montra in the right hand corner at the top of every page on TAM...." Because the only constant in life is change".

So whats up with that.







I just read the thread title


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Y'all have awesome husbands. If it were to happen to me there would be no 2nd chance. I'm to insecure to stay married to someone who cheated on me. I would spend all my waking moments spying and analyzing every word spoken and every action taken, but that's just me.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> I wonder how long this thread would be "allowed" to exist without howling and pandemonium breaking out? After all, it is reasonable and okay for a Loyal Spouse to make sweeping judgements about "all betrayers" but could a Disloyal ever get away with this? Could we ever even suggest one disparaging thought without being told we are blameshifting? Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe one of the reasons that EI, and Regret, MrsAdams and I were able to successfully reconcile with our Loyal Spouses is that they were willing to a) not villify us and b) just look at their side.
> 
> We (the Disloyals who have kind of stuck it out) have all said a zillion times that what was on our side of the street was ours and ours alone. Full weight and responsibility for the consequences of cheating fall squarely on us. But that in no way excuses Loyals from what may or may not fall on them! I know for a fact that one of the reasons I am with my Dear Hubby is that he did not just point fingers and blame me, but we worked TOGETHER as a team to see, "Well I do tend to close down when I'm grieving" "Well I do tend to get needy when I'm grieving" "Here's what I can do about my shutting down" "Here's what I can do about my neediness."
> 
> ...


Many times on here we folks that have been betrayed, hear from "remorseful" waywards, how they take full ownership BUT..... (and then they proceed to shift blame, list reasons, minimize, justify, gas light etc..)

They claim to take ownership of the choice to have an affair, and then insinuate that the state of the marriage forced them into it. When a BS sees another BS getting blame shifted, no matter how subtle, it doesn't sit well. 

It sounds like your reason was your husband shut down or something like that... and you got him to buy in, good for you.

If I want to 'cut you down' as you call it, then I will.. I see it as more of an attempt to get you to stop using your husband not being perfect as a crutch .. and not take 90% of the blame for your cheating and dumping 10% (or any) on him. Take 100% of it, since you probably never asked your husband and got his approval. It's not complicated, but for some WS, even ones in R, it seems to be lost.

This whole post is you subtly trying to get your point home, that the loyal spouse isn't always innocent, they are human and have faults and in many cases helped drive the spouse to cheat and now they need to own what they did to cause that and correct it. Did it make you feel better to type all that? Did you convince yourself that disloyal and loyal are the same exact thing? You knew you'd piss off loyal spouses that don't want to take on any of the blame for being deceived by a lying cheating partner. Seems like a self serving post to me, way to be selfish and poke the bear.. great job.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

@AC, thats some deep stuff...especially from the guy with the cheating wife that use to slap his old lady around.

But then again some loyal spouse didn't do sh1t to get screwed over by their spouse....some folks are just broken.

I mean... I mean... I'm sitten here... just sittin here on the bench, think about what you wrote and I get it!

But some loyals really got the short end of the stick when their waywards got off on screwing them over. Some people are just broken.

We all need to change. me and the old lady did and were better off for it.

peace out


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Seriously, russell? THAT'S what you got from AC'S post? No, she wasn't putting blame for the affair on her husband at all! She was fully responsible for that. No, what she was saying is they both screwed up in the marriage itself, but she chose a destructive path, rather than trying to get things worked out with her husband. She screwed up and he gave her a second chance, and they worked together to repair the damage they both did, while she did the work to repair what the AFFAIR did. 

Tbh, I agree with AC. Too often, the LS is raised up as a saint, even if he or she was a horrible person before the affair. Not one of us is a saint. We are all human, both loyals and disloyals. A disloyal spouse cheating does not automatically raise the loyal spouse to sainthood, period... nor does it drop the disloyal to scum of the earth, automatically. That's what she's saying. You don't have to agree, russell. But it's the truth. Nobody is a saint... nobody.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Besides AC, what do you know any way...youve only been around 7 months longer then I have.

I used the smile twice cuz I like you.

Hows your old man doing anyway?


Cant believe I'm still here...and your *back*:rofl:


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Seriously, russell? THAT'S what you got from AC'S post? No, she wasn't putting blame for the affair on her husband at all! She was fully responsible for that. No, what she was saying is they both screwed up in the marriage itself, but she chose a destructive path, rather than trying to get things worked out with her husband. She screwed up and he gave her a second chance, and they worked together to repair the damage they both did, while she did the work to repair what the AFFAIR did.
> 
> Tbh, I agree with AC. Too often, the LS is raised up as a saint, even if he or she was a horrible person before the affair. Not one of us is a saint. We are all human, both loyals and disloyals. A disloyal spouse cheating does not automatically raise the loyal spouse to sainthood, period... nor does it drop the disloyal to scum of the earth, automatically. That's what she's saying. You don't have to agree, russell. But it's the truth. Nobody is a saint... nobody.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Hyperbole... Nobody is raising loyals to saintly status, or demoizing the WS to scum of the earth.. we are just keeping it real.

Two people.. 50/50... one being honest, one sneaking and lying and not playing by the rules. I'm not going to ever blame the person that's being honest for the lies the other one tells. No matter how anyone tries to spin it or twist it.. 

How does a person know the marriage is screwed up if the partner is lying to them, not communicating, and sneaking and cheating? The cheater is often times trying to keep things 'normal' so the spouse doesn't catch on that they are cheating, and upon discovery.. Boom, now the marriage problems are going to finally be discussed. Great... excellent timing.

We've had this conversation a million times on here.. the marriage had a little fire, so the wayward tried to put it out with gasoline and forgot to mention to you that the house was burning down, until you came home one day to a pile of ashes. Then they tell you it's your fault because you didn't put out that little fire they mentioned years ago around the same time they started cheating on you.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Basically some WS' on here get upset because they aren't always shown in the greatest light.. go figure. People on here make generalizations, like 'all cheaters do x', well go figure.. it's odd because when you look at it, they do have a similar script they all follow... They blame shift, they trickle truth, they gas light, and when someone calls them out, we're mean and not being nice to the poor waywards. Are there some on here that show true remorse? Probably, do I believe them? No.. Why not? Because I don't know them, and they've been known to cheat and lie in the past, so that's all I have to go on. They use nice words, and can use charisma to get people to like them and agree with them... People need to jump to their defense, and they can eat up the attention.. feel special. 

Like as a BS, I need some former wayward giving a lecture on how to be kinder to cheaters, because loyal and disloyal are the same thing now.. 

I got the tone of her original post.. so I gave her the reaction she was looking for. I know how to feed trolling posts.. I have experience on message forums. I know she has a great reputation as someone that's helped people, that's awesome.. I love people that help me then kick me when I'm down.. then help again, then kick.. as long as it makes them feel special, what the hell...

edit: For those that haven't figured it out, the title of this thread is mocking another thread...


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

TryingToRecover said:


> I feel like I really need to preface this all with only sometimes, my opinion only, my perception only, etc etc. Particularly in light of recent threads.
> 
> I have seen some posts where a betrayed husband who goes on to engage in a RA and some of the posters replying back with the tone of, "having an RA was not the right thing to do but who could hardly blame you after she emasculated you?" OTOH, the same type of post from a BS/wife who engages in a RA.... well, the tone in response is often along the lines of, "it's absolutely wrong and your now BS should kick your azz to the curb and not look back."
> 
> ...


I do indeed consider cheating wives to be *****s/sliuts. And it is my feeling that slapping that label on them should constitute the entire effort the BH makes to "understand" why their wife ended up f*cking another man.

I consider cheating husbands to be garbage (dont find the gender based terms for them to be harsh enough). Similar statement vis-vis her "understanding" why he......

One more thing. I like MrsAdams. She is the exception that proves the rule (above).


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Hyperbole... Nobody is raising loyals to saintly status, or demoizing the WS to scum of the earth.. we are just keeping it real.
> 
> Two people.. 50/50... one being honest, one sneaking and lying and not playing by the rules. I'm not going to ever blame the person that's being honest for the lies the other one tells. No matter how anyone tries to spin it or twist it..
> 
> ...


Utter nonsense. I've seen other threads where the disloyal has been told that he or he is scum, even when showing remorse. I've seen disloyals told they are the worst possible people, even when their spouses are on here saying otherwise. And I have seen disloyal spouses told that there is no way in hell they could ever change, that disloyals only pretend to change because they have too much to lose, otherwise. So, spare me the tripe that WS are not demonized. I've seen it myself.

As for the problems in the marriage... some do try to discuss beforehand, some don't. Percentage? I really don't know. Still, it doesn't mean all of them didn't try. Now, for my own marriage... He started working at a new job. It was stressful, so he would wind down by gaming. I had no problem with this. About a year later, he had a breakdown. This breakdown happened a month before our youngest child was born. He continued to sppiral downward and I had no idea how to reach him. I was taking care of 2 babies (newborn and another under age 2) as well as our oldest child. I couldn't handle it. ME, not him. And I began confiding in someone I believed to be a friend... and it escalated from there. In the beginning, before my EA, I would ask him, often, how he was feeling that day. Each time, I got "I'm fine." or other such responses. He wasn't fine. NOt by a long shot. And he wouldn't open up to me. Again, this was BEFORE I even began talking to anyone else about him and me. 

But things did change after everything came out into the open. It took time, but we are much improved, now. I screwedup when I turned to others for the emotional connection I needed from my husband. But, we BOTH screwed up by not communicating as we should have.

You don't have to agree. You don't have to believe. Frankly, I don't care. I'm just tired of seeing the garbage spewed, especially when a disloyal spouse IS truly doing what he or she needs to do.


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## sammy7111 (Apr 19, 2014)

Way does the loyal spouses have to change there not the one cheating
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Utter nonsense. I've seen other threads where the disloyal has been told that he or he is scum, even when showing remorse. I've seen disloyals told they are the worst possible people, even when their spouses are on here saying otherwise. And I have seen disloyal spouses told that there is no way in hell they could ever change, that disloyals only pretend to change because they have too much to lose, otherwise. So, spare me the tripe that WS are not demonized. I've seen it myself.
> 
> As for the problems in the marriage... some do try to discuss beforehand, some don't. Percentage? I really don't know. Still, it doesn't mean all of them didn't try. Now, for my own marriage... He started working at a new job. It was stressful, so he would wind down by gaming. I had no problem with this. About a year later, he had a breakdown. This breakdown happened a month before our youngest child was born. He continued to sppiral downward and I had no idea how to reach him. I was taking care of 2 babies (newborn and another under age 2) as well as our oldest child. I couldn't handle it. ME, not him. And I began confiding in someone I believed to be a friend... and it escalated from there. In the beginning, before my EA, I would ask him, often, how he was feeling that day. Each time, I got "I'm fine." or other such responses. He wasn't fine. NOt by a long shot. And he wouldn't open up to me. Again, this was BEFORE I even began talking to anyone else about him and me.
> 
> ...


You say you screwed up, then you say BOTH... it sounds like you were communicating, but not with your husband, you were telling all your problems to your boyfriend. That's not *both *of you not communicating, that's you *communicating with the wrong person*. So if you want to do what you truly should do, stop blaming your husband for your affair.. 

I'm not trying to be a saint, or say you're scum, I'm just being honest and communicating. Communicating because it's two of us, being honest.. if all of the sudden one of us shuts down, and stops talking, and goes to someone else and tells them secrets, that's no longer us communicating.

Basically, asking if your husband is fine, and he says yea... NOT ENOUGH!!!!! Next time, mention to him that you have a boyfriend, watch how he all of the sudden seems to take an interest.. begins to 'care'.... (sigh).. Did you mention how you felt? Did you tell him in a way where he actually knew you were about to blow up the marriage?? I bet you didn't.. I bet it wasn't that big of a red flag you were waving, just enough so you could say you tried. You got off talking to the other guy, and you pinned it on your H..


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

sammy7111 said:


> Way does the loyal spouses have to change there not the one cheating
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So the WS can continue to convince themselves that the loyal spouse drove them to cheat, they made the choice and they own it, but it's because they tried to tell the spouse they weren't happy and the spouse said "I'm in the middle of a raid, can you wait until I kill the dragon please", so that was pretty much the same as saying 'why don't you go out and have a relationship with someone new, have sex in our bed too'.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

russell28 said:


> You say you screwed up, then you say BOTH... it sounds like you were communicating, but not with your husband, you were telling all your problems to your boyfriend. That's not *both *of you not communicating, that's you *communicating with the wrong person*. So if you want to do what you truly should do, stop blaming your husband for your affair..
> 
> I'm not trying to be a saint, or say you're scum, I'm just being honest and communicating. Communicating because it's two of us, being honest.. if all of the sudden one of us shuts down, and stops talking, and goes to someone else and tells them secrets, that's no longer us communicating.


Go back and read, russell. We BOTH weren't communicating as we should have BEFORE I started talking to someone else. And read again. I was talking to him, and getting nothing. Zero. In that respect, we BOTH dropped the ball. We BOTH had to learn how to communicate effectively. THAT is the part that is on both of us. Once the communication turned to the other guy, that is the part that is on me. And that is where I have to be alert to be sure I don't start confiding secrets in someone else. WE need to stay connected by communicating, regularly. *I* need to watch myself to be sure I am not talking to anyone about anything that should remain between him and me.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

What if you talk to him and get nothing? Zero.. What will you do then?

When you talk to him, will you be completely honest, or only give him a tiny glimpse of what you are really feeling?

Are you sure you didn't blow up some of these pre affair communication problems in your head, to help justify acting in such a horrible way towards your family?

Do you realize, 'lack of communication' is one of the more common justifications/reasons cheaters use to make it feel like they are justified in having an affair? (My husband never talks to me anymore). 

Did you really want to talk to your husband? Or did you prefer talking to the new exciting guy you had an affair with at that time?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Basically, asking if your husband is fine, and he says yea... NOT ENOUGH!!!!! * Next time, mention to him that you have a boyfriend, watch how he all of the sudden seems to take an interest.. begins to 'care'*.... (sigh).. Did you mention how you felt? Did you tell him in a way where he actually knew you were about to blow up the marriage?? I bet you didn't.. I bet it wasn't that big of a red flag you were waving, just enough so you could say you tried. You got off talking to the other guy, and you pinned it on your H..


1. There is no "next time". Dont even go there. You are baiting, plain and simple, by even implying such.

2. Yes, I did tell him I was frustrated. I do admit that it wasn't as often as I should have. Again, something that has been rectified.

3. The "How are you?" "I'm fine" was an EXAMPLE. A daily example, but an example nonetheless. Yes, I did press for more. I often did tell him I could tell he's not doing "fine", and try to get him to talk about what was bothering him at that moment. Sometimes I would get a straight answer, but more often than not, I would get "Don't worry about it."... and if pressed further, he would snap. Before anyone gets all workd up, no, he never hit me nor the kids. When I say snap, I mean with words... yelling, arguing, etc. And sometimes, I argued back. I have a temper, too. Other times, I would stand silent and seethe. 5 minutes after blowing up, he'd act as if nothing happened. (He tries this now, but I don't get sucked in. I tell him it doesn't work that way and we talk about it... a bit more rationally.)

4. I'm not pinning a damn thing on my husband....except his own EA.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> 1. There is no "next time". Dont even go there. You are baiting, plain and simple, by even implying such.
> 
> 2. Yes, I did tell him I was frustrated. I do admit that it wasn't as often as I should have. Again, something that has been rectified.
> 
> ...


You have a temper, he could have cheated and said it was all on him, 100%... BUT, you did have a temper and would nag him all the time "how are you feeling", constantly.. 

BUT, if he did have an affair, it would not be because of you nagging or having a temper, or not communicating, it would be because of his lack of boundaries, his lack of self control, his poor decision making abilities, his lack of self respect, his lack of respect for his family (see where I'm going with this?), his selfishness, his entitlement etc... 

The lack of communication was the cause of the lack of communication, your lack of boundaries and dishonest communcation was a factor in your cheating that your husband had no insight into, no control over and no choice in the matter. So next time you mention it, leave him out of it. Say I, say me... leave out the "but he..." and I will be nicer to waywards.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

russell28 said:


> What if you talk to him and get nothing? Zero.. What will you do then?


Talk to an old family friend... a woman who has been like a second mother to us through the years. See if she has ideas on how to get through to him. If she is unavailable, I will talk to her daughter, who is a pastor's wife. I know...your next quetion is "Why didn't you do that before?" Because we had lost contact with each other shortly before my family had moved out of state. We recently reconnected a couple years ago.



russell28 said:


> When you talk to him, will you be completely honest, or only give him a tiny glimpse of what you are really feeling?


I am completely honest. He knows when I am pissed off and when I am in a good mood. I don't hold back anymore.



russell28 said:


> Are you sure you didn't blow up some of these pre affair communication problems in your head, to help justify acting in such a horrible way towards your family?


Yes, I am sure I didn't blow them up. I had started talking to my mom about the problems, but she had her own issues she was dealing with. Even then, as strange as it may seem, I didnt want her to know all because she would've pushed for the kis and me to move back to my home state, without him.



russell28 said:


> Do you realize, 'lack of communication' is one of the more common justifications/reasons cheaters use to make it feel like they are justified in having an affair? (My husband never talks to me anymore).


Yes? And? There is no justification for cheating. The guy I was talking to knew about my husband's mental health problems. We met him online, on a game. Yes, we. I met him through my husband. I felt "safe" talking to this guy because I saw him as a mutual friend in the beginning.



russell28 said:


> Did you really want to talk to your husband? Or did you prefer talking to the new exciting guy you had an affair with at that time?


Sigh.... yes, I did want to talk to my husband. I wanted to hear more than "I'm fine" and "What's for dinner". I wanted to do more than go for walks by myself with the kids while he slept for hours on end. Yes, I wanted more from/with my husband.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

russell28 said:


> You have a temper, he could have cheated and said it was all on him, 100%... BUT, you did have a temper and would nag him all the time "how are you feeling", constantly..
> 
> BUT, if he did have an affair, it would not be because of you nagging or having a temper, or not communicating, it would be because of his lack of boundaries, his lack of self control, his poor decision making abilities, his lack of self respect, his lack of respect for his family (see where I'm going with this?), his selfishness, his entitlement etc...
> 
> The lack of communication was the cause of the lack of communication, your lack of boundaries and dishonest communcation was a factor in your cheating that your husband had no insight into, no control over and no choice in the matter. *So next time you mention it, leave him out of it.* Say I, say me... leave out the "but he..." and I will be nicer to waywards.


Wow... something AC, MJA, and I have been saying. The affair is on the wayward. And the communication breakdown was due to both parties not communicating. Go figure. 

As for the "next time" comment.... it is something we have moved past, together. We have worked on our boundaries and communication, together. And each time we have ever mentioned the affairs, it is fully acknowledged by each of us that mine was 100% my own and his was 100% his own. Apparently, this seems to get lost in translation when typing on here. At any rate, "next time" is unlikely. We haven't discussed either EA in over a year.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Communication can be a big part of it. But even if one partner is communicating, working on the relationship, working on themselves, etc... it may not matter. Even if both people are otherwise upstanding people, it may not matter. If even one partner gives up, or somehow a rift forms and the two cannot come together to repair it, then the relationship is like a dying star with outcomes to match.

I had every excuse and several opportunities in our 14 years together, but I never allowed myself the wiggle room to slip into an affair. She... otherwise the most do-good person I know, gave herself an inch and fell head-over-heels for a married man. 

The hole in our relationship may have been there, and I may have been ignoring it for a few months preceding the affair, but she had been ignoring the hole for years as I tried to carry our relationship on my back. A few months of me giving up, and a lot of other things aligning into place, was all she needed to do something she abhors. And she never spoke or worked with me as I had with her... she just did what she wanted and what she felt entitled to do.

I try not to judge other people too harshly, to understand where they come from, and to understand how I too could come to be in such a situation. I have a hard time doing that when it comes to infidelity. I'm not perfect. Your partner may not be perfect. But talk to them, work with them, or part with them. Betrayal does not need to enter the mix.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

I guess it all boils down to this: if the loyal spouse was not doing their part in the M, the "tempted to cheat" spouse should have talked to the loyal spouse about not doing their part. If the loyal spouse still refused to do their part, then the cheating spouse had 2 choices:

1. Accept that the loyal spouse couldn't or wouldn't change, and stay M and be faithful.

2. D the loyal spouse and be free to taste what is no longer forbidden, since they are not M anymore.

AC, I know you own what you did and obviously your Mr. AC had problems prior to your cheating. I'm glad you worked it out. But you had the option of being faithful and staying, or D'ing him. You sound self righteous to me.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Thound said:


> Y'all have awesome husbands. If it were to happen to me there would be no 2nd chance. I'm to insecure to stay married to someone who cheated on me. I would spend all my waking moments spying and analyzing every word spoken and every action taken, but that's just me.


Thound, 

Just so you know, I totally hear ya--it would be a deal breaker for you, and you'd spend your life feeling like you had to "check up" which is no way to live. 

However, speaking as a Disloyal Spouse, I'd be willing to allow you to analyze every word I spoke and every action I took for the rest of my life. That's what I'd consider "transparency"--not just allowing you to see everything, but SHOWING IT to you. That's what I'd consider the minimum a Disloyal should do, and to this day that's the way I let Dear Hubby in on my whole life. 

So again, I hear you. It's a deal breaker for you and you would not choose to live like that. I'm hoping you can see why I think my Dear Hubby is a hero.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Okay as you've seen, I have not been on this thread very much and I haven't been commenting, on purpose. I really did not want to add gasoline to the fire, so I purposefully stayed away and just let the thread take on the life of it's own. 

The reason I started this post was a little sarcastic because there is another post on this forum entitled "Does a Betrayer Ever Really Change?" and that thread and title are an example of the way it often seems like Loyals can portray Disloyals any way they want, using any derogatory terms, but the reverse would never be tolerated. And please note, I said it's AN EXAMPLE; in real life that thread has been on the verge of being civil. But I thought if I turned the tables a little, and actually spoke out loud how hypocritical it seems to me, that maybe by SEEING it in a thread title, other people would see it too. 

I mean let's be honest, it's the golden rule! If you don't want people to treat YOU that away and speak of YOU that way, then don't speak of THEM that way! Right?

So to answer some specific points people brought up:

*Gus*--I knew you'd get it! I wish MrsGus would post here too.
*MrsJA*--I knew you would too. You're a woman I greatly admire and when I grow up I want to be just like you (lol)
*Maricha*--chick you are fearless! I love how you say it like it is and speak right out for what you think and believe. I wish I was as brave as you sometimes. 
*Thundarr*--your contributions are always welcome!
*Tryingto Recover*--your posts made sense to me
*MattMatt*--I like seeing you around TAM. You always add in a positive way. 
*Forest*--I think you have a good point there. That's what I think too, and thus I try to just consider where it's coming from.
*Truthseeker*--I've always actually admired you too. You pursue the truth ruthlessly but your not a jerk about it. I can deal with that because honesty is something that can be built on even if ya disagree on a few things. 
*vellocet*--I think you just want to argue  Now don't take that wrong; my own Dear Hubby also likes to take the contrarian point sometimes just to make a person think or challenge beliefs that aren't thought through. Still, I will be honest and say that a lot of times what you write has the sting of angry acid to it. I don't really like arguing much. We can disagree but at a certain point it feels hurtful to me. So that's just the way I am. 
*Racer*--your contributions usually leave me thinking. I agree with you that after an affair, the BS is never the same. This is 100% true. But neither is the WS and if there is reconciliation, the marriage is never the same. I have news for you: innocence is shattered on both sides. If I did it once, that means unless I'm vigilant every second of every day it is possible I could do that again. I'll never trust myself entirely again. 
*Dad&Hubby*--you nailed it! No need to say more.
*Squeakr*--honestly I agree with you. I think before the affair, what happened in the marriage was "our" fault, based on I'm responsible for MY actions and he's responsible for HIS. Sometimes one spouse really is an angel and the other just is evil incarnate--but that's rare. It's more likely that one is a controller and the other is co-dependent (or something) and both have their own demons to face that are entirely within their control but they want to blame their spouse. I'm just not responsible for how he felt or how he chose to act, but neither is he responsible for how I felt or how I chose to act IN THE MARRIAGE (the affair is entirely not being discussed here). 
*Lon*--I'm just saying, you got it man! I'm tickled to see someone write it so clearly. 
*johnAdams*-- Hi nice to see you on my thread! Thanks for being open. 
*Wazza*--that's us too. Dear Hubby is an INTP with some J, and I'm I with some ENFP. He thinks and analyzes...I live and laugh and love. I learned to be more cognitive from him, and he learns to enjoy the sunshine from me. 
*russell*--I honestly think you're looking for a fight (not like vellocet, who I think enjoys the strategy of an argument and presenting his case). I don't think you read what was written with the hopes of understanding me. If you look at the entirety of what I've written, you would KNOW that when it comes to my affair, that is on me. 100%. Not one drop of that choice was on my Dear Hubby, and he is the absolutely 100% innocent victim of that decision. That is a boulder to bear, and I bear it with joy because he was compassionate enough to offer me another chance. I will NEVER repay that debt and not a day goes by I don't think of it years and years later now. 

The problem is that people ask Disloyals "WHY!!??" "Why did you do that?" "What were you thinking?" "How did that happen?" (Shoot I ask myself that!) And when we try to answer, then "Oh you're just blameshifting." Well, let me ask you this; how am I supposed to attempt to answer this question? How am I supposed to evaluate it so I can learn from it to never do it again? 

If I try to evaluate what happened, and why, and when, it happened in the dimension of "Time" and "Time" is linear! That means "first THIS happened...then THAT... and THAT lead to THE OTHER" right? So a timeline seems appropriate. And in a timeline I might think "this event occurred, which contributed to this event occurring, which lead to this event occurring" is the way some people look at a timeline: a calendar, a line with marks on it, a list. 

So please NOTE once and for all. My Dear Hubby DID NOT make me cheat not do I ever suggest he is any portion responsible for what I chose. Nope. He is, however, responsible for his side of the street. I'm responsible for me and my side and my choices and my benefits and costs...and he is just as responsible for his side and his choices and his benefits and costs. 
*theguy*--I'll just say I like your style. I particularly agree with some folks got the shaft, and some folks are just broken. But in the end, you're right, we all need to change. Peace out, man.
*nuclearnightmare*--I'm just going to say it. You just called me a name that hurts me to the core, and you don't even know me. My affair was online, am I less of a slvt? Do you feel better or more like a man because you put me down? Hope so, because what you accomplished was making those names ring in my head. 
*Cabsy*--I hear ya and I think you have it right. I appreciate that you try not to judge and you do your best to not be harsh, and I also understand that in pain sometimes you may be harsh because you're human. Glad you chimed in. 
*ImFarAboveRubies*--well I'm sorry to hear you think I sound self-righteous. I probably better examine that in myself, maybe I am. 

I think one piece that's sort of missing in this picture though is that I agree with you 100%. When things were not going great between us, I did try to talk to Dear Hubby OUT LOUD, and not hinting but coming right out and bringing it up honestly. At the time I didn't want to divorce him or think that was an option, so I was trying to accept "this is what life will be like in our marriage" and here's where I went wrong--the first little step off the path--choosing an activity that did not involve him. 

My mind was not thinking "Hey I'll exclude him and keep it a secret" either. I just liked this game and he didn't really, so no biggie: when he did X I did Y. BUT my mind was also not thinking correctly about marriage! I was not in the mindset that everything I do and everything I say and ALL OF ME should include and embrace my spouse. We may not do everything together (like Dear Hubby is a brilliant painter, and I just am not!) but when he paints I watch! Or when I do my talent, he tries it. Of course there is more involved, but that is just one of the things that I can say to people (now) "Hey whoa, you don't know it but you are setting yourself on a potentially devastating trajectory just from starting an activity that will gradually exclude your spouse! You'll have things in common with others, and you vowed to forsake all others!" 

Anyway, I regret that I sound self-righteous. That's actually the opposite of what I had hoped to sound like.  I will re-read my posts and see if you have a point.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> *russell*--I honestly think you're looking for a fight .


That's what you wanted by creating this thread, to start a flame war. I was helping you along.

This thread was mocking another thread, and intended as another blame shifting thread, pointing out how the BS is also to blame for affairs. It's subtle, but there...

"My affair is all on me 100%..... BUT my husband wasn't perfect, I should always add that disclaimer whenever mentioning my affair" "I cheated, did I mention my husband never wanted to go for walks with me but my other man did?"

It gets old and tired.. You're a WS on a forum about infidelity. Guess what, without people like you, this forum woudln't even exist. What do I mean by people like you? I mean people that are in a fog. Today the fog is you believing your intentions weren't to inflame, and that you're somehow helping betrayed spouses by feeding your own ego and justifying your affairs because life is hard.

If you don't want a fight, don't go looking for fights, that would be my advice.

_
"I'm responsible for me and my side and my choices and my benefits and costs...and he is just as responsible for his side and his choices and his benefits and costs. "_

Here's a good example... the cost he paid was because of the choice you made. So your choice, was responsible for his cost. That's not 50/50... So what you need to see is that you are also responsible for his costs and benefits with your choices, and vice versa.

You _could _say the above like this:

"I'm responsible for me and my side and my choices", and leave it at that.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

russell28 said:


> "My affair is all on me 100%..... BUT my husband wasn't perfect, I should always add that disclaimer whenever mentioning my affair" "I cheated, did I mention my husband never wanted to go for walks with me but my other man did?"
> 
> It gets old and tired..


I don't really care whether its old and tired, I care whether it's true. 

I posted earlier that Mrs Wazza, unilaterally, chose to have an affair. I don't believe any of the pressures she was under justified her affair, and I think it arose, in part, from weaknesses she has as a person.

That said, they were genuine pressures. Much more serious than "my husband never wanted to go for long walks...". They don't excuse what she did, but they are extenuating circumstances, and they give me reason to believe that she is capable of fidelity.

There's nothing wrong with recognising your spouse's weaknesses and helping her (or him) overcome them. I don;t think affair-proofing your marriage means you accept blame for the last affair.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Funny, it's not ok for AC to create this thread, asking if loyal spouses ever change. But it's perfectly fine for someone to say that disloyal spouses never change, only pretend to. You see nothing wrong with this, russell?

Just to be clear, here, was your "I cheated, did I mention my husband never wanted to go for walks with me but my other man did?" directed at me? If so, you got that completely wrong. OM never went for walks with me. I never saw OM. The only ones I ever walked with were my kids. And when I say I never saw OM, that's the truth. I never met him in person. Ever.

My thought is that you are in your own fog. But that's JMO.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I don't really care whether its old and tired, I care whether it's true.
> 
> I posted earlier that Mrs Wazza, unilaterally, chose to have an affair. I don't believe any of the pressures she was under justified her affair, and I think it arose, in part, from weaknesses she has as a person.
> 
> ...


So you accept that if the going gets tough, your wife can use that as a reason to cheat on you.. but as long as you work hard to remain a close-to-perfect spouse, and life remains easy, you may be fortunate enough that she'll remain faithful? I don't think you affair proof a marriage, you can only affair proof yourself, and a start for waywards would be to stop looking at the other person, and to look at themselves, since the other person wasn't the one that strayed and they were in the same marriage.

Two people share a car, they put dents in it and take it for granted.. one night one of them steals a new car, crashes it into the old car.. then when the other spouse wants to know what happened to the car, why is it smashed, they remind you that you put some pretty big dents in it. The reason it gets tired and old and annoying, is because it's the same old song and dance routine. At the end of the day, one person is claiming to have tried honest communication, but that person claiming to have tried honest communication is also a person that's proven they will lie and deceive, so it's often difficult to buy into it. 

In my case, I got the 'never wanted to go for walks' thing... She'd ask like this "I'm going for a walk, I'll be back in about an hour".... a few months before dday, she started to ask like this "I'm going for a walk, want to come? We can talk and then grab a coffee".. guess what, I was like "sure" and went for walks. We were starting to reconnect, because she decided at some point she was actually going to work on our marriage instead of making excuses and reasons to cheat. One of the 'reasons' I got was that I never wanted to walk or talk... she later admitted that those were her needing to justify getting close to the guy at work. That's a big step... being honest with yourself.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Funny, it's not ok for AC to create this thread, asking if loyal spouses ever change. But it's perfectly fine for someone to say that disloyal spouses never change, only pretend to. You see nothing wrong with this, russell?
> 
> Just to be clear, here, was your "I cheated, did I mention my husband never wanted to go for walks with me but my other man did?" directed at me? If so, you got that completely wrong. OM never went for walks with me. I never saw OM. The only ones I ever walked with were my kids. And when I say I never saw OM, that's the truth. I never met him in person. Ever.
> 
> My thought is that you are in your own fog. But that's JMO.


The OM didn't walk with you and your kids? Really? My wifes OM didn't go for walks with her either.. 

Did you meet your OM in Azeroth and sneak off to the Molten Core together?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

russell28 said:


> So you accept that if the going gets tough, your wife can use that as a reason to cheat on you.. but as long as you work hard to remain a close-to-perfect spouse, and life remains easy, you may be fortunate enough that she'll remain faithful?


No. Read my post that you quoted again.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Wazza said:


> No. Read my post that you quoted again.


Ah, I missed the part where you are helping her learn to be faithful so next time there are pressures she won't stray.. got it. That's where I'm at in my R, hoping my wife can learn enough and feel enough pain from her choices to not want to go that route again. I think an important start is not looking too deeply at what I was doing, and looking more closely at what she was doing. To not have a footnote on every point about her weaknesses, that include something about me causing that or forcing that weakness to be exposed.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Ah, I missed the part where you are helping her learn to be faithful so next time there are pressures she won't stray.. got it. That's where I'm at in my R, hoping my wife can learn enough and feel enough pain from her choices to not want to go that route again. I think an important start is not looking too deeply at what I was doing, and looking more closely at what she was doing. To not have a footnote on every point about her weaknesses, that include something about me causing that or forcing that weakness to be exposed.


Still not getting it. It's not that you missed a bit. It's that you misunderstood or misrepresented what I said.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Did you meet your OM in Azeroth and sneak off to the Molten Core together?


Yes to Azeroth, no to MC. Raids were always a group thing, and my husband was often there: he'd tank, I'd heal him. Same with instances. Dailies and/or leveling it depended who was there. Often, I was in a group with my husband, but occasionally, OM was there, as well.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

It's rare that when someone that cheats, they'll admit they did it because they wanted something different, some strange exciting sex.. attention, new flesh... they were bored, wanted an escape, a rush, it felt good, they THEN came up with the reasons why you were a bad spouse, why you didn't walk and talk with them enough, to justify what they were doing after they got caught. As they built up the resentments to push a spouse away, they also build up a list of reasons why cheating is okay. It's rare and difficult for them to shed that list, because it's painful to look at themselves and see the horrible person they are capable of being. They used that list to protect themselves from the pain their actions and choices will cause, and need to cling to it. To not repeat, and some day fall into the same trap, they need to shed that list of bullcrap reasons, and come clean on the real reasons. Stop saying they cheated and own it, *BUT*.... Say you're sorry without the 'you should be sorry too' disclaimer, it's hard enough being betrayed, a BS doesn't need waywards telling them they helped to cause it, that's just more head games and putting your crap on someone else.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

No, they never change! Nobody changes ever! 

(I kid).


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Likewise, a WS who is truly making the effort to do what is necessary to reconcile does not need a bunch of BS telling him or her that they will never change... that it's not possible. Contrary to what some may believe, it IS possible.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

To summarize, next time you want your husband to spend time with you, instead of saying "Want to do something?" and if he doesn't say "sure", you cheat... Do this instead, say "Lets do something together or I'm going to go to a motel room with this nice guy I work with and bang him because I'm kind of bored with you, I've been banging you for years/decades and I'd like to experience something different, so please say no to doing something together so I can use that as my excuse to bang OM"


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

russell28 said:


> That's what you wanted by creating this thread, to start a flame war. I was helping you along.
> 
> This thread was mocking another thread, and intended as another blame shifting thread, pointing out how the BS is also to blame for affairs. It's subtle, but there...


I don't see it like that at all. Everyone is able to post any kind of thread on TAM. And there are hundreds of posts that are started on TAM where the subject is flipped. 
Example: "What turns men on?" and later "What turns women on?"

This thread isn't mocking. Just as those threads aren't mocking. And TAM would be boring as hell if there was only one viewpoint on a subject matter. 



russell28 said:


> "My affair is all on me 100%..... BUT my husband wasn't perfect, I should always add that disclaimer whenever mentioning my affair" "I cheated, did I mention my husband never wanted to go for walks with me but my other man did?"
> 
> It gets old and tired.. You're a WS on a forum about infidelity. Guess what, without people like you, this forum woudln't even exist.


So... Affaircare isn't allowed to post? This is an open forum and all members (unless they are trolls) are welcome to post. Also, no one is perfect. No one on this Earth. So her saying her husband isn't/wasn't perfect is hardly offensive. 



russell28 said:


> Today the fog is you believing your intentions weren't to inflame, and that you're somehow helping betrayed spouses by feeding your own ego and justifying your affairs because life is hard.
> 
> If you don't want a fight, don't go looking for fights, that would be my advice.


AC isn't "looking for a fight" but based on your posts to her, it seems that maybe you are.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Likewise, a WS who is truly making the effort to do what is necessary to reconcile does not need a bunch of BS telling him or her that they will never change... that it's not possible. Contrary to what some may believe, it IS possible.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


It IS possible, I've seen it here. I don't remember Regret ever blaming Dig for her affair.. and Miss JA, but she's an exception since she deviated from the script, those are two I can think of.. so it's pretty rare.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> I don't see it like that at all. Everyone is able to post any kind of thread on TAM. And there are hundreds of posts that are started on TAM where the subject is flipped.
> Example: "What turns men on?" and later "What turns women on?"
> 
> This thread isn't mocking. Just as those threads aren't mocking. And TAM would be boring as hell if there was only one viewpoint on a subject matter.
> ...


She took issue with the 'loyal''s cutting down the 'betrayers' in that thread, that's why she created the thread.. You can believe she's not mocking, I don't get that vibe. She mentioned she was going to get accused of blame shifting, so she saw it coming. I never said she wasn't allowed to post. I think she ever said something about seeing how long the thread would last. This is how she helps betrayed spouses, by showing us how we need to be nicer to her and her list of approved WS' because they are all special and that thread didn't make her feel special.


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

Russell, I came to TAM because I suffered through four years of major depression. I was always emotionally impaired, and sometimes so paralyzed I could literally not get up. I abandoned my wife is spirit, leaving her to carry me emotionally and financially. I think any fair observer would say I was the source of any problems in our marriage.

My wife did not cheat.

So right now, the problems and the responsibility to heal and make amends are on me. And I accept the burden gratefully.

Now suppose she had had a one night stand instead. 

How would we address my contribution to our problems then? If my hypothetical wandering wife came to TAM full of remorse, what would you tell her? That she could never after discuss my four years of impairment and abandonment? 

The day before the hypothetical one night stand it would be 90% on me. The morning after it would be... what? Off limits forever?

I truly don't understand how a WS is supposed to heal if he or she cannot discuss anything in his or her marriage but the affair.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

russell28 said:


> She took issue with the 'loyal''s cutting down the 'betrayers' in that thread, that's why she created the thread.. You can believe she's not mocking, I don't get that vibe. She mentioned she was going to get accused of blame shifting, so she saw it coming. I never said she wasn't allowed to post. I think she ever said something about seeing how long the thread would last. This is how she helps betrayed spouses, by showing us how we need to be nicer to her and her list of approved WS' because they are all special and that thread didn't make her feel special.


She said those things because she has been around TAM long enough to know that anytime a spouse who cheated posts, they get flamed and told they are only feeding their ego/that they aren't helping/and asked why are they posting.

It's par for the course.

It takes balls for a person who cheated to make a post on TAM and they always end up receiving the kind of comments you made. They get insulted and oftentimes become the scapegoat of other peoples' projections.

It's business as usual.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> I wonder how long this thread would be "allowed" to exist without howling and pandemonium breaking out? After all, it is reasonable and okay for a Loyal Spouse to make sweeping judgements about "all betrayers" but could a Disloyal ever get away with this? Could we ever even ameshifting? Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe one of the reasons that EI, and Regret, MrsAdams and I were able to successfully reconcile with our Loyal Spouses is that they were willing to a) not villify us and b) just look at their side. suggest one disparaging thought without being told we are bl
> 
> We (the Disloyals who have kind of stuck it out) have all said a zillion times that what was on our side of the street was ours and ours alone. Full weight and responsibility for the consequences of cheating fall squarely on us. But that in no way excuses Loyals from what may or may not fall on them! I know for a fact that one of the reasons I am with my Dear Hubby is that he did not just point fingers and blame me, but we worked TOGETHER as a team to see, "Well I do tend to close down when I'm grieving" "Well I do tend to get needy when I'm grieving" "Here's what I can do about my shutting down" "Here's what I can do about my neediness."
> 
> ...



IMO this forum is and used almost entirely by BSs...If you are looking for forgiveness or someone to pay homage to your Dispicable and dreadful acts ..you are sadly in the wrong place.


THE ONLY REASON EI...Regret and Mrs Adams were successful .in R ..IS THAT THEIR BHs CHOOSE TO R...it was not their decision....

I myself refused to let my EXWW have her [email protected]#fest and come home after lying and betraying me for 18 months and doing things with OM that were never offered to me for 22 years...

I left nothing but SCORCHED EARTH...that was MY decision not hers...The decision to destroy 2 families and have a A with her boss...that was her decision...not mine.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

russell28 said:


> It IS possible, I've seen it here. I don't remember Regret ever blaming Dig for her affair.. and Miss JA, but she's an exception since she deviated from the script, those are two I can think of.. so it's pretty rare.


And yet, Regret got jumped until Dig showed up and told them to knock that sh!t off. As for MJA, well, she's gotten jumped a lot, too... and maintains her stance. And I've seen MrJA come and say to knock off the beatings, too. Still, there are some on here who feel that a WS cannot be redeemed, no matter what is done to prove otherwise. Things like not using private browsing (I never have anyway), not deleting browsing history (I didn't until he said to do it anyway because it was slowing things down. Even so, I don't do it everyday), giving passwords (he has them, and even the ones he doesn't know, he can still access on my phone because they are stored in there), and so many more. My husband and I have the new Galaxy S5 phones. We set it up so each of us can open the phones with fingerprint identification... mine is stored in his and mine and his is stored in both as well. So, while I don't frequent this forum as much as I used to, and don't talk about what we did as much as I used to, it doesn't mean WE haven't taken steps, together, to ensure we stay connected. It doesn't mean either of us has forgotten what happened. And it doesn't mean or relationship hasn't improved. It does, however, bother me when some imply htat, because their spouses did X, then that is absolutely true for all. It's not. 

And, russell, as for the comment "Lets do something together or I'm going to go to a motel room with this nice guy I work with and bang him because I'm kind of bored with you, I've been banging you for years/decades and I'd like to experience something different, so please say no to doing something together so I can use that as my excuse to bang OM" ....yes, let's do that. Even when there is no way that's happening, sure, say that. Yuck.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

As to AFFAIRCARE's statement...Dear Hubby did not point fingers...we worked as a TEAM...


My I ask one simple question to you...Whos Team Were You
Playing On when You Were HAVING SEX WITH THE OTHER MAN...

Your team...your husbands team...or the other mans team...

???


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

badkarma2013 said:


> As to AFFAIRCARE's statement...Dear Hubby did not point fingers...we worked as a TEAM...
> 
> 
> My I ask one simple question to you...Whos Team Were You
> ...


Thank you for proving my point.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

owl6118 said:


> How would we address my contribution to our problems then? If my hypothetical wandering wife came to TAM full of remorse, what would you tell her? That she could never after discuss my four years of impairment and abandonment?
> 
> The day before the hypothetical one night stand it would be 90% on me. The morning after it would be... what? Off limits forever?
> 
> I truly don't understand how a WS is supposed to heal if he or she cannot discuss anything in his or her marriage but the affair.


We would tell her that the A is her issue and problem and she need to make amends for and help you to heal from it, juts as much as you need to help her from your issues, for which she is not responsible either.. If, as you admitted, the problems pre-A were yours, then she has really nothing to discuss about them except to assess how to help you heal from them, but to help you in your healing and she has no responsibility for your issues, as you said they were wholly yours and she couldn't do anything to change them.

The A would then be all on her and if she was to elect to discuss the M per-A and why she chose to cheat, she would be doing such solely for the needs of blame shifting in this case, as she didn't contribute to the M issues. Your hypothetical is not the usual situation we see here on TAM, where one party is the responsible party for the issues in the M prior to the A.

Although, like in pretty much every other case on TAM, in order for the WS to heal they need to fix their issues and problems just as does the BS. Your issues and her issues are completely separate and need to be addressed as such. I know the world is not a bubble, but we don't let the BS rewrite the the M pre-A to place all blame for its issues squarely on the WS, nor should we allow the same in the WS case. Infidelity is different than other issues in a M, as no matter if you can fix the issues that existed prior to the A, if you can't ever get past the A, it is a moot point to try and fix the issues prior first. You need to address the A first to see if it is even possible to rectify the M.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

To the original question:
Does a Loyal Spouse Really Ever Change?

well I have and for the better in a few ways;
I don't trust blindly anymore
I do not take disrespect from my WW anymore
We are in R and communicating better (still working on it)
I used to be doormat not so much anymore (Thanks to TAM) still have a ways to go by TAM standards
used to be codependent big time, now - a lot less (still working on it)

So yes the Loyal spouse can change.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

badkarma2013 said:


> THE ONLY REASON EI...Regret and Mrs Adams were successful .in R ..IS THAT THEIR BHs CHOOSE TO R...it was not their decision....


 This is not true. The reason they were successful is that they and their BS both chose to R and commit to it fully. The BS is just one piece of the puzzle in this case. 

I tried R and can tell you I was committed in my attempt, but my WS accepted my offer as something she deserved and took advantage of it. Finally after 2 years and her making no attempts, other than slight concillations here and there, the R is officially off the table and we are now on to the D path. The same result could have happened in our case if my WS was fully committed but I was not and just coasted through the attempt expecting everything from her and little effort on my part, even though I was offering the opportunity. So I say again it is because BOTH parties committed and that is why it worked.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

badkarma2013 said:


> IMO this forum is and used almost entirely by BSs...If you are looking for forgiveness or someone to pay homage to your Dispicable and dreadful acts ..you are sadly in the wrong place.
> 
> 
> *THE ONLY REASON EI...Regret and Mrs Adams were successful .in R ..IS THAT THEIR BHs CHOOSE TO R...it was not their decision....
> ...


Do you think that would even have been possible, had their spouses not:
a) not villified them and 
b) just looked at their side.

I don't think so. If the prevailing tone of the reconciliation had been "I'm better than you, no matter what you try to do. You are at my mercy, and must do anything and everything I say, no matter what", reconciliation wouldn't have occurred. Period. Instead, they looked at the marriage, before their wives cheated, for clues that they missed... and worked on THOSE. The wives looked inside themselves and worked on themselves. Together, they worked on the marriage, to repair/improve what was lacking before.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> *vellocet*--I think you just want to argue  Now don't take that wrong; my own Dear Hubby also likes to take the contrarian point sometimes just to make a person think or challenge beliefs that aren't thought through. Still, I will be honest and say that a lot of times what you write has the sting of angry acid to it. I don't really like arguing much. We can disagree but at a certain point it feels hurtful to me. So that's just the way I am.


Well you did start a thread insinuating that those with our POV are hypocrites.

For the most part I agreed with you in that I don't think there is a BS here that won't acknowledge they had a role to play with problems in the marriage.

Was pointing out that when someone cheats, then those problems that could have/should have been talked about before the infidelity, at least FOR A WHILE, become null and void to the BS because of the intense pain caused by the cheating. Once the cheating is dealt with, then a BS can begin to take their part of the responsibility in the marriage.

What I say has an angry acid to it? Hey, what can I say. That's the kind of emotions that infidelity brings about.

I have to ask, what exactly did I say that was hurtful to you?


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Funny, it's not ok for AC to create this thread, asking if loyal spouses ever change. But it's perfectly fine for someone to say that disloyal spouses never change, only pretend to. You see nothing wrong with this, russell?


I know you asked this of Russell, but I'd like to answer.

Its perfectly ok for AC to post this. There IS truth to what she is saying.

But the problem is, there are two people who are responsible for how their marriage turns out, but in most cases you have one of them that takes it a HUGE step further with an act that has more devastating and long lasting effects....for most people.

I have already said, I can look within myself of any problem I might have in a relationship. But once they cheated, then those problems WILL take the back burner until what to do about the cheating is figured out. Once that is addressed, one way or the other, the BS can, and should, work on their responsibilities to the relationship.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

One thing's for sure. The loyal spouses often change from a somewhat contented spouse with peace of mind to a despairing, depressed spouse with absolutely no peace of mind.

Now that is some change, for ya.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

owl6118 said:


> Russell, I came to TAM because I suffered through four years of major depression. I was always emotionally impaired, and sometimes so paralyzed I could literally not get up. I abandoned my wife is spirit, leaving her to carry me emotionally and financially. I think any fair observer would say I was the source of any problems in our marriage.
> 
> My wife did not cheat.
> 
> ...


If your wife had a ONS, the new problem would be the broken trust. It doesn't sound like your wife has broken your trust and betrayed you, in spite of your health issues. It appears she gets the whole 'in sickness and in health' thing and isn't going to use it as her excuse to cheat. Good for her. If she did cheat, then it would be on her, and have nothing to do with what your problems are. She's proof that a spouse can be less than perfect, and you can remain faithful to them.

Your poor health is not justification, or a reason to cheat, as your wife has proven. If she does cheat, and I hope she never does, I sure hope she won't lie, deceive and sneak, and then blame you for things that you were kept in the dark about. Using your health as her crutch, her 'reason' for cheating.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Forest said:


> One thing's for sure. The loyal spouses often change from a somewhat contented spouse with peace of mind to a despairing, depressed spouse with absolutely no peace of mind.
> 
> Now that is some change, for ya.


I know it has changed me for the worse. More introverted at times, no longer like being around more than 1 person, lost all faith and trust in people, more of a suspicious mind now, become less optomistic...


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Do you think that would even have been possible, had their spouses not:
> a) not villified them and
> b) just looked at their side.
> 
> I don't think so. If the prevailing tone of the reconciliation had been "I'm better than you, no matter what you try to do. You are at my mercy, and must do anything and everything I say, no matter what", reconciliation wouldn't have occurred. Period. Instead, they looked at the marriage, before their wives cheated,* for clues that they missed... and worked on THOSE*. The wives looked inside themselves and worked on themselves. Together, they worked on the marriage, to repair/improve what was lacking before.


They missed the clues, because they didn't know they were playing a mystery game. How about the cheating spouse work on boundaries, self control, lying, sneaking, manipulating people, abusing people that love you etc.. and worry less about what the spouse was doing prior to the affair, because it usually pales in comparison. Once they stop playing Clue, and start being honest, then they can work on the marriage together. You can't work on something together when one person is being less than honest. The something that was lacking was respect for the spouse and marriage and honesty, once that is restored, then there is some small glimmer of hope. In many cases, the problems in the marriage were a few minor cuts in the arm and the affair solution was to cut off the arm and watch the spouse bleed out, then when they are found out.. they remind the spouse about the small cuts, as the betrayed spouse is standing in a puddle of blood..


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: Does a Loyal Spouse Really Ever Change?*



Affaircare said:


> The problem is that people ask Disloyals "WHY!!??" "Why did you do that?" "What were you thinking?" "How did that happen?" (Shoot I ask myself that!) And when we try to answer, then "Oh you're just blameshifting." Well, let me ask you this; how am I supposed to attempt to answer this question? How am I supposed to evaluate it so I can learn from it to never do it again?


I think the answer is really apparent to the betrayed spouse: at that place in time it seemed like a rewarding decision to give in to your lust and throw consequence to the wind, you were foolish and selfish and succumbed to your weakness, and chose to not care about your commitment to your spouse or your marriage.

I think that is the only acceptable answer, and any response other than that IS blame shifting and avoiding culpability.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

russell28 said:


> They missed the clues, because they didn't know they were playing a mystery game. How about the cheating spouse work on boundaries, self control, lying, sneaking, manipulating people, abusing people that love you etc.. and worry less about what the spouse was doing prior to the affair, because it usually pales in comparison. Once they stop playing Clue, and start being honest, then they can work on the marriage together. *You can't work on something together when one person is being less than honest.* The something that was lacking was respect for the spouse and marriage and honesty, once that is restored, then there is some small glimmer of hope. In many cases, the problems in the marriage were a few minor cuts in the arm and the affair solution was to cut off the arm and watch the spouse bleed out, then when they are found out.. they remind the spouse about the small cuts, as the betrayed spouse is standing in a puddle of blood..


That, in bold, I can agree with. This applies to the BS, too. Don't try reconciliation unless it's what you really want to do. If you know you don't want to, be honest and tell the WS that there is nothing he or she can do that will change your mind. If you need time apart, say so and do it. But be honest.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

It’s been said that a WS will never understand what a BS goes through. The same can be said for a BS who isn’t a Madhatter. They will NEVER understand what a remorseful WS goes through after cheating. I imagine that for some it’s really hard to look in the mirror. I imagine the guilt, shame, self-loathing, regret; sorrow for hurting one’s loved ones isn’t a light load to carry either. Yes, they brought it on themselves but that doesn’t negate how painful it is for them as well.

I for one would not want to look at the faces of my children as my spouse has had to and know that my actions caused that pain. I would not want to reflect back on family videos and seeing how light, happy, and innocent he was before I cheated. Only to look at him now and see how angry, hardened and older he seems and knowing it was my fault. My spouse has done this and I know he has to live with that. I know it causes him a lot of angst to know he's the cause of that. As a father, his duty is to protect our kids from harm and to know he caused it tears him apart.

It is true that being betrayed changes you. However, I disagree that the negative changes have to be permanent. An affair is 100% the fault of the one who cheats. Although not fair, although they didn’t ask for this burden, betrayed spouses have 100% responsibility to THEMSELVES to heal for THEMSELVES. I’m not talking about the marriage. It's true the WS has to carry the burden and lighten the load of the BS to heal a marriage after infidelity. However the duty to heal yourself remains whether you stay married or not.

You can’t control what cards you’re dealt with in life or what bad things people do to you but you can control WHAT YOU DO ABOUT IT. I have a low tolerance for people that use painful experiences in life to remain stuck forever. Betrayed spouses CAN heal from infidelity whether they R or D. In a perfect world, nobody would HAVE TO heal from infidelity but we all know it isn’t a perfect world. 

I am sure I’ll get flamed for this but I don’t see enough long-time posting BS’s on this site taking responsibility for their HEALING. It seems acceptable to continue to remain hurt, bitter, enraged, sad, depressed for years after an affair. Many people seem stuck in the same despair they felt on Dday. As a BS, I can’t relate to it. This won’t win me a popularity contest but I find a lot of BS’s on this forum to be toxic. Surely, the pain they endured is justified but I don’t think holding on to it forever and spewing venom is. I do think I tend to be a more resilient person than most but a big part of it is that I don’t want to live a life in pain or anger. 

A BS’s anger and pain from being betrayed IS NOT an insurance policy against further indiscretions in their marriage. I feel like some BS’s refuse to move forward in their healing as if they fear that letting go of some of the hurt and anger will cause their WS to forget what happened and make it easier for them to cheat on them again. Similarly, that being willing to move forward in your own healing is akin to justifying the affair or rug sweeping it. I disagree with this stance wholeheartedly.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

One other thing to point out, once you start to travel down the blame road... the 'prior marriage issues' thing, lets remind ourselves that it can go both ways.

Your spouse drinks too much? Can they blame the state of the marriage prior to drinking? Could it be you caused them to drink? 

Spouse doesn't want to spend time with you, could it be you've become cold and distant as you've grown closer to that person you've been seeing?

Spouse doesn't listen when you talk, could it be because you aren't giving them the whole story and just clues, and you're being inconsistent with it, being happy for weeks, then out of the blue, ILYBINILWY, and then boom, it's all happy and normal again after the betrayed person says "are you cheating?" and the person cheating says "don't be silly". It's your fault they don't talk to you, you're mean when you cheat.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

good post op, interesting take on it

It all depends on HOW bad the loyal wants to make it work...

I am going to step out WAY OVER a limb here...I mean, I am hanging by a thread over this limb...but generally if an infidelity happens, the marriage wasnt in that great a shape to begin with...there always seems to be a cheater and their unattentive low drive works too much spouse...so, how hard does a loyal typically want to work to make a fumbling marriage work AFTER infidelity???

Its funny as I am a happy cheater-basher...R to me is just so NOT worth it...however, I do really like most of the waywards who post here and who have made R work...it gives my cynical arse a little hope in the institution of marriage


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Miss Taken said:


> It’s been said that a WS will never understand what a BS goes through. The same can be said for a BS who isn’t a Madhatter. They will NEVER understand what a remorseful WS goes through after cheating. I imagine that for some it’s really hard to look in the mirror. I imagine the guilt, shame, self-loathing, regret; sorrow for hurting one’s loved ones isn’t a light load to carry either. Yes, they brought it on themselves but that doesn’t negate how painful it is for them as well.
> 
> I for one would not want to look at the faces of my children as my spouse has had to and know that my actions caused that pain. I would not want to reflect back on family videos and seeing how light, happy, and innocent he was before I cheated. Only to look at him now and see how angry, hardened and older he seems and knowing it was my fault. My spouse has done this and I know he has to live with that. I know it causes him a lot of angst to know he's the cause of that. As a father, his duty is to protect our kids from harm and to know he caused it tears him apart.
> 
> ...


I only get enraged on this forum when I see BS getting blamed for spouses cheating on them. I'm actually doing well in my R, and considering where I was a year ago, I think things are positive. My wife is doing the hard work, and she knows not to blame shift, she tried that route and it didn't work out so well..
Sure I was controlling and jealous, but not because I was an ahole, but because she was a flirt and a tease and didn't understand boundaries, like not making friends with males at work, not letting them give you back rubs, wearing appropriate clothes to school functions (look like a mom not one of the 15 year olds) etc... So it's personal, I got blame shifted like many BS' and I hate to see others getting it, even the ones that were monsters and played warcraft and drank and didn't go for walks or talk enough.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I see the rabbit hole spiraling down when it comes to this blaming game that is for sure.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

missthelove2013 said:


> good post op, interesting take on it
> 
> It all depends on HOW bad the loyal wants to make it work...
> 
> ...


Reconciliation?
True reconciliation by definition means the WS has changed. Anything less is false reconciliation. It means the WS understands no matter what happens, cheating is not an option that can work. Sometimes it means the BS has changed as well. The BS can change in ways that make the marriage better but the BS can not assume any responsibility for their partner's choice to cheat. That would be false reconciliation as well.

There should never be infidelity even in a terrible marriage. It's simple really. Until the relationship ends, another one cannot begin. And certainly two cannot exists simultaneously.

I get that examination of everything that led to infidelity is important and that it's a part of reconciliation. But it only works if the BS and the WS both know that the act of cheating can never be justified as okay. It can never be an excused option and was always a bad choice made by the one committing it.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> It’s been said that a WS will never understand what a BS goes through. The same can be said for a BS who isn’t a Madhatter. They will NEVER understand what a remorseful WS goes through after cheating. I imagine that for some it’s really hard to look in the mirror. I imagine the guilt, shame, self-loathing, regret; sorrow for hurting one’s loved ones isn’t a light load to carry either. Yes, they brought it on themselves but that doesn’t negate how painful it is for them as well.
> 
> I for one would not want to look at the faces of my children as my spouse has had to and know that my actions caused that pain. I would not want to reflect back on family videos and seeing how light, happy, and innocent he was before I cheated. Only to look at him now and see how angry, hardened and older he seems and knowing it was my fault. My spouse has done this and I know he has to live with that. I know it causes him a lot of angst to know he's the cause of that. As a father, his duty is to protect our kids from harm and to know he caused it tears him apart.
> 
> ...


Please know that I am not "flaming" you and I appreciated your post. 

However, on a scale of 1-10 a betrayer who is genuinely remorseful probably never reaches beyond 4. The betrayed hits close to 1 billion. I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic, but for those who didn't betrayed who didn't bring the betrayal upon themselves, the emotional, physical and psychological damage is deep and permanent. For the betrayer, it was fun, wild and deeply exciting. Then those who are genuinely remorseful are sorry, but that's about it. And remorse is a temporary state of feeling. Not to downplay it fully, and I fully accept the fact people can be really sorry after the fact for their wild time that brought them unbound joy, but feeling some remorse doesn't compared to a lifetime of damage to those who loved and trusted. 

All that to say I think it's a blessing for those who can refrain from betraying again and work to rebuild their marriage and family.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Miss taken..I agree with much of what you said...but would like to add this...
> 
> We here on tam get really hung up on the way we word things ...and some of us get really sensitive about the way we approach the "process and script" of how things should be done.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this as it pertains to reconciliation (which I am now in the process of attempting). I do think the BS and the WS help each other to heal. I also think that much of the onus is on the WS in cleaning up the mess that the affair caused. That being said, I feel the BS still has to decide whether they will forgive, move forward and heal - and to what extent they will do so. So that's where I think a BS is also responsible for their own healing.

Further, I also think it really applies in the event of a divorce where there is no reconciliation and the WS isn't involved in the BS's healing. In that case, while not fair the BS has full responsibility over their own healing. I do believe it's possible for a BS to fully heal from infidelity whether they remain with their spouse or not.

There are many treacheries to the person and spirit that can be inflicted on us by another; where the perpetrator does not carry the load but the victim heals and becomes a SURVIVOR. CSA for example is one where there is absolutely nothing fair about it. The predator is 100% responsible for the harm they caused to their victim. Often, they do nothing to make amends (as if that's even possible) or help their victim to heal. The victim carries that burden with them and unfortunately, are the only ones that can heal themselves. Many people don't accomplish that it's true, but many do (I was one). This too is possible with infidelity in my opinion.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

vellocet said:


> Well you did start a thread insinuating that those with our POV are hypocrites.
> 
> For the most part I agreed with you in that I don't think there is a BS here that won't acknowledge they had a role to play with problems in the marriage.
> 
> ...


You are a perfect example of what I wish people could be like on TAM. Just to be clear, vellocet, you have never said anything to me or about me that had the angry tinge to it. That I know of, you've been pretty respectful even though I think we have disagreements in our overall views. I'm completely cool with that. You don't resort to swearing, name calling or degrading, and overall, you state your case with some "enthusiasm" shall we say?  

My comment about the angry tinge thing was not what you have said to me (personally) but rather "I can still hear some pain and anger in the responses sometimes." Make sense? In other words, it's not impartial nor raging defensive--just still hear some hurt sneaking in now and then. And frankly, I think it's reasonable considering how you were treated and what happened! Also, from what I've observed, you're mellowing a bit as you go alone further, which again to my mind seems normal. That is to say, your view is still your view--that doesn't change--but the way you present it is becoming more mature and respectful. 

So let's be clear. I have no problem with you. I think we may disagree on some things, fundamentally, and that's fine too. That I know of, you've never personally written anything hurtful about me. (Of course, I don't read "every" thread! :rofl: )


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Squeakr said:


> I see the rabbit hole spiraling down when it comes to this blaming game that is for sure.


Yep I see that too


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Please know that I am not "flaming" you and I appreciated your post.


Thank you! Much appreciated. 

The following isn't a flame either. 




thatbpguy said:


> However, on a scale of 1-10 a betrayer who is genuinely remorseful probably never reaches beyond 4. The betrayed hits close to 1 billion.


I can't argue with this as I don't know what you feel about what you experienced. Similarly however, I don't know what a WS feels and have a really difficult time placing a number or rating on one's pain. We all experience things differently.



thatbpguy said:


> I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic, but for those who didn't betrayed who didn't bring the betrayal upon themselves, the emotional, physical and psychological damage is deep and permanent.


I can still remember who completely gutted I felt when I found out he was cheating on me and for the first several months into our separation. However, things do and are getting better. I don't agree that the psychological damage is permanent or that it has to be. 



thatbpguy said:


> For the betrayer, it was fun, wild and deeply exciting. Then those who are genuinely remorseful are sorry, but that's about it. And remorse is a temporary state of feeling.


True but aren't every emotions temporary? Excitement and fun are also temporary states of feelings. I went to the fair last week and it was exciting and fun, I was pumped full of adrenaline and energy but right now, I just feel kind of "meh". I don't think WS's do experience deep sorrow and remorse over their actions every single day. However, I don't feel happiness, sadness, anger or boredom every day, all day 24/7 either. I feel a wide range of emotions on a daily basis. It doesn't make those states any less meaningful to me in the moments that they exist. 

The way we feel about things can also change drastically. What was once fun can later feel completely destructive. What was grunt work or felt boring at the time can be remembered with rose-coloured glasses as being a fulfilling and rewarding experience.

While I've never cheated, I can also think back about things that were fun and exciting at the time but I now deeply regret doing, when I think back about them. Some of them didn't even have long term consequences or hurt anyone either except for the way I felt about myself. 



thatbpguy said:


> Not to downplay it fully, and I fully accept the fact people can be really sorry after the fact for their wild time that brought them unbound joy, but feeling some remorse doesn't compared to a lifetime of damage to those who loved and trusted.


I don't want to make light of your pain or anyone else's. I do realize we all cope and recover from things differently. Some people wipe the dust off their shoulders easier than others do. I believe I am one of those some people. So a lifetime of damage just sounds really extreme for *me*. I do not want that for myself. I don't want to be damaged for the rest of my life, yuck so I am taking responsibility in my own healing NOT to be whether I reconcile successfully or not. I don't think my speed of healing is the responsibility of my spouse but his efforts certainly have helped.

Like I said before, you can't always control the bad things that happen and sometimes people even take your power away and inflict harm onto you as with abuse or cheating. You might not have been able to prevent that from happening but you can choose what you do about it.

As a child, I was molested by my step-father. I could have easily used that to become promiscuous, do drugs, hate men, maybe even prostitute myself or star in porn or become a child abuser myself. OR, I could take the route of knowing what happened to me wasn't my fault but my healing is my job. So went to counseling, read books, attended support groups, journaled, cried, got angry let out my emotions in healthy ways, made peace with what happened and moved on from it.



thatbpguy said:


> All that to say I think it's a blessing for those who can refrain from betraying again and work to rebuild their marriage and family.


Agreed.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Miss Taken said:


> There are many treacheries to the person and spirit that can be inflicted on us by another; where the perpetrator does not carry the load but the victim heals and becomes a SURVIVOR. CSA for example is one where there is absolutely nothing fair about it. The predator is 100% responsible for the harm they caused to their victim. Often, they do nothing to make amends (as if that's even possible) or help their victim to heal. The victim carries that burden with them and unfortunately, are the only ones that can heal themselves. Many people don't accomplish that it's true, but many do (I was one). This too is possible with infidelity in my opinion.


This is exactly the situation from my first marriage. My exH is a serial cheater and abusive, and I use the current tense verb because he did not apologize, did not change, did not stop, and to my knowledge is still an active cheater and abuser (physically, mentally, verbally, emotionally). He has done nothing to make amends, but during the divorce process and afterward I did heal and learn quite a bit. Obviously not EVERYTHING but then again, who has nothing to learn? LOL I hope I keep learning and growing my whole life.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

thatbpguy, 

I generally do not reply to you much because so much of what you write and how you write it sounds angry to me. But I appreciate the restraint you've shown in this thread, and there were a few things you wrote that I think are inaccurate, so I'd like to share with you my thoughts and see if it might help you understand 'the other side' so to speak

You wrote:


> I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic, but for those who didn't betrayed who didn't bring the betrayal upon themselves, the emotional, physical and psychological damage is deep and permanent.


I would like to be clear: we are in agreement that the disloyal person brought it on themselves. Where we disagree is that the damage to the loyal is deep and permanent but the damage done to a disloyal is shallow and temporary. 

I cheated I think it was four years ago now, and I've been here on TAM for most of that time. Emotionally, after four years, I still feel immense sorrow, grief and regret. I feel aversion and disgust for my own self sometimes. I feel like the woman who has the scarlet A tattooed on her chest and it's deserved. I feel panic every day if this will be the day he has had enough and leaves. I cry every day (sometimes because hurtful things were said and somehow people think I deserve to be treated like that). Physically, I've lost my hair. I don't sleep well to this day--I LIKE sleeping and I do sleep but when it's 2am and my mind is whirling, well nothing I can do!. Psychologically this is nothing like being a loyal spouse--which I thought was closer to feeling like PTSD. This is more like long term torture, some internal and some external. 

Having been on both sides, it took longer to recover from being betrayed, but it was much easier and I was allowed to recover. Being a disloyal, I am never, EVER allowed to recover. If I do or try to explain how I got there and how to avoid it--well there's that scarlet A again. It's like living in perpetual unforgiveness and everyone thinks that justified. 




> For the betrayer, it was fun, wild and deeply exciting. Then those who are genuinely remorseful are sorry, but that's about it. And remorse is a temporary state of feeling.


This I just disagree with...pretty much every sentence. When I was in the midst of my affair, for which I'll never be forgiven, we watched TV together. We played a game together (and no it wasn't WoW). It wasn't wild or "deeply exciting." Any fun I had was because I enjoyed the things of my own accord. I'd enjoy them if I was alone! I can't speak for every disloyal, but what happened for me was not a pursuit of "I want to get my passion on!" I was doing an activity I enjoyed with someone who had a similar interest so we had things to discuss. He expressed interest in me. I was shocked and unprepared for anyone expressing care for me other than my husband, and I did not have guards in place. I grew to enjoy someone who liked some things I liked and who liked me. 

And again I can't speak for every disloyal, but for me genuine remorse is not just a temporary "feeling" of sorry. Man, that's not even real in my book! Let's see, four years now and every single day I enact changes I've made. Every single day I care for my Dear Hubby, who is extremely ill. Every single day we enjoy things together. Every single day I take the time to come on here and write to people. Every single day I sorrow over what I did. Every single day I'm grateful for what he did. Every single day I don't just do "the same old things" but vigilantly evaluate myself and my decisions. Every single day I share everything with Dear Hubby (meaning not only that he has access if he wants, but also that I interact and share myself and my life with him). Every single day I think of what his love language is and DO THAT. Every single day it's on my mind. Every single day I'm reminded of who I am by someone. Every single day I'm called some sort of name. Every single day I'm blamed for someone else's disloyal. Every single day I struggle and have to get my own mind "back on track." Every single day I have to remind myself what is important to me. 

So I'd say the remorse is long term and permanent.



> Not to downplay it fully, and I fully accept the fact people can be really sorry after the fact for their wild time that brought them unbound joy, but feeling some remorse doesn't compared to a lifetime of damage to those who loved and trusted.


I think I'll just leave my previous statements above to address this quote. The damage on the disloyal side is also a lifetime. Yep I suspect you're going to say I brought it on myself, and you're right. I did. I'm just telling you so you maybe you can change your view that it was all joy and passion in the affair, and afterward we get to just skate around easy compared to loyals. In my opinion, I think people overall want someone who can see their mistakes, accept them anyway, and see value in who they are. I want that. I suspect YOU want that as well, even here among anonymous strangers: that we'd see some of YOU and recognize you are not the skeletons in your closet, but you grew from those mistakes and are who you are today--and now we value your comments and contribution. I used to hope that some day that would happen here at TAM, but I'll be honest, after the past couple of days I HONESTLY do not think that's possible for disloyals. 

Frankly, I think that is incredibly sad.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> My comment about the angry tinge thing was not what you have said to me (personally) but rather "I can still hear some pain and anger in the responses sometimes." Make sense?


Ya, not a problem. Although don't mistake that for me being in pain, because I excised that cancer long ago.

Some anger? Ya sure, I can admit it. Sometimes the stories of infidelity just rub me raw.




> In other words, it's not impartial nor raging defensive--just still hear some hurt sneaking in now and then. And frankly, I think it's reasonable considering how you were treated and what happened! Also, from what I've observed, you're mellowing a bit as you go alone further, which again to my mind seems normal.


I think I am. Why? Because there are some great people here. And yes, I have to admit (gulp), on the wayward side too. But you guys are the few and far between, IMO.




> So let's be clear. I have no problem with you. I think we may disagree on some things, fundamentally, and that's fine too. That I know of, you've never personally written anything hurtful about me. (Of course, I don't read "every" thread! :rofl: )


No problems, you are alright. I may disagree with WS's in general, but I still can see some of the points.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

_nuclearnightmare--I'm just going to say it. You just called me a name that hurts me to the core, and you don't even know me. My affair was online, am I less of a slvt? Do you feel better or more like a man because you put me down? Hope so, because what you accomplished was making those names ring in my head._

Affaircare:

I'm sincerely sorry what I wrote hurt you in the way you describe. My comments were not aimed at you. I hope the words cease ringing, and I hope you can forgive me.

I don't caveat my comments to any great extent, because I think that would make posting here tortureous, or even so for the reader. but these are not very simple issues so the wrong impression can sometimes be formed. so here are a couple more comments that might be clarifying:

-- yes. IMO emotional affairs are not the same as physical affairs. I'm very rigid and judgemental vis-a-vis PAs. Not able to be so sweeping on EAs because the circumstances and nature of them can vary so widely. the comments I made pertain to _physical affairs_

-- as for my use of terms wh**re, slvt, garbage - if the WS in question is a serial cheater, then I mean exactly what I said. If it is the first time or a ONS then I emphasize more that the BS should "label" their WS as such so that they don't go into never ending fretting on why the WS cheated, and instead start the detachment process and find a better partner, someone that loves and respects them in a much more reliable way. i.e. happiness will come more quickly by moving on IMO.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

missthelove2013 said:


> good post op, interesting take on it
> 
> It all depends on HOW bad the loyal wants to make it work...
> 
> ...


In many cases, the marriage isn't all that horrible, others would kill to trade places with the spouse that cheats.. but they still aren't happy, because they want something different, something new and exciting. My wife admitted after the fact that she blew stuff out of proportion, made small annoyances into big issues to justify her feelings for the OM. That sounds more believable to me than when she first started with the bull crap blame shifting.. not wanting to go for walks garbage, that I reminded her I had been doing for the six months before dday when she actually asked me to go with her.. Part of getting out of fog is seeing those things for what they are. Marriage is not perfect, surprise. Humans aren't perfect, surprise.. In my case, my wife wasn't happy, and it really had less to do with me and more to do with her. She needed to not look to another man to find her happiness, she needed to look at what she had and appreciate it and stop with the grass-is-greener thought process, stop hanging with cheaters, stop making excuses and reasons, stop trying to attract men to flirt with, stop flirting with men, stop looking to cheat basically.. and stop blaming the spouse that remained faithful for you not being able to remain faithful. Build boundaries, respect yourself and your spouse and your marriage. Learn to love all the little quirks about them instead of building up resentments. Be honest with them, don't pretend you're fine if you're not. Don't gloss over things, and drop hints, tell it true, tell it all, don't tell half the story then blame your partner for being in a funk. Cheaters have often proven they can lie and manipulate without thought of consequence, so when talk is of marriage problems, the one that's been sneaking and lying and cheating doesn't really have much moral ground to stand on.

I think in my case, proof would be that we are in R, after a 5 year LTA.. how horrible could our marriage have been? If there were not good times, no love, no feelings, no bond.. would we be able to be here a year past dday? I wouldn't if my wife was still talking crazy blaming me for stuff I wasn't getting all the truth about.. If she wants to say that I did something or do something, that bothers her, fine, but don't try to link that thing to a choice made to cheat that didn't involve me. I'll own that thing, but that's part of relationships.. working on things... honest things... real things, not phantom things and stuff used to throw you off the track, and excuses kept as a 'just in case' backup plan in case they get caught. "you were never there for me" is a classic. I was never there for her, only at the birth of each child, drove her everywhere for 10 years while she was afraid to drive, taught her to drive, would drop anything and run to her if she ever just asked. But she didn't want me to be there for her, she was bored with me.. the new guy at work, he was 'there' for her. I boiught her the dream car she wanted.. I washed it for her.. I fixed her car, she gave him a bj in it... I bought her a house, she brought him to it and slept with him in the nice mattress I got so she could get a nice nights sleep. He was there for her when she sent me and the kids to be away for the day, so she could 'clean' the house... When they took the day off from work, something I asked her to do many times.. she'd make up reasons why that's crazy. I'd ask to get a motel for the day, again, crazy.. not so crazy with him tho. I wasn't there for her. I told her I wouldn't trade her for a supermodel, because I love every inch of her.. she probably told that same thing to her boyfriend.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Miss Taken said:


> some BS’s refuse to move forward in their healing as if they fear that letting go of some of the hurt and anger will cause their WS to forget what happened and make it easier for them to cheat on them again.


In my own journey toward healing, I realized that I was doing just that. I did feel like I had to keep reminding him about what he did, so that he would not do it again...I thought that by staying I was giving him permission to cheat on me again.

Now I realize that Mr. IMFAR could cheat at any time, whether I let go of it or not. Whether he is faithful or not is on him, not on me. What has helped me let go of the infidelity more is the realization that I will be OK. There will be no more chances, immediate D. I have a life of my own, friends, interests, children who love me, intellect to re-learn the career I left to raise our family, and on and on.

To add to what others have said, regarding preexisting problems in the M prior to the decision to have an A: In my M there were definitely preexisting problems, which I tried to address prior to H's EA.

He was a conflict avoider, and left the room every time I tried to address any M problems. He acted like there were no problems, but that _I was the problem, for talking about problems that didn't exist._

He never told me what he was unhappy with, stuffing his feelings. He felt attacked whenever I tried to communicate my issues. I can't be blamed for his refusal to talk about anything unpleasant, and his ignoring his own feelings.

After the A: He realizes his conflict avoidance led him to stuff his own feelings and eventually justify his A. That is all on him. Whenever he behaves in a CA or passive agressive way, all my triggers get pushed, and the A comes to the forefront in my mind, because I know that those are the very reasons he was open to the A. He is more assertive now, thank God, and that leads me to think he will be less likely to have another A, but work on the problems in our M. He is willing to discuss problems: my problems and his problems.

Also, I want to commend and thank those of you BS-es who are posting who are so much more articulate than I am, and who have attempted to "push back" on the blaming the loyal spouse for the A. Some of us "loyals" already had struggles in our M, largely due to our selfish, self centered spouses, and we were hanging on by our fingernails, trying to make the best of an already difficult M, and the A added a dump truck load of more sh*t on top.

If my FWS wasn't doing his part of the work, after all I put into the M and sacrificed for him and our children, I would be thinking, "Why bother, when I know how this story ends...him dumping me and our children to the curb for a pretty face and lying lips that have already lied and cheated on her own husband."

As long as he does his part, I will keep working on myself, and trying to be a better spouse.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> thatbpguy,
> 
> I generally do not reply to you much because so much of what you write and how you write it sounds angry to me. But I appreciate the restraint you've shown in this thread, and there were a few things you wrote that I think are inaccurate, so I'd like to share with you my thoughts and see if it might help you understand 'the other side' so to speak
> 
> ...


Interesting.

I sure hope I am not an angry person. I have a lot of fun and laugh a lot.

But I guess a lot of this hinges on two things:

1) The view of the betrayed as opposed to the betrayer.

2) The level of which the betrayed brought it upon themselves.

From the view of the betrayer, pffffffftt, forget about it. No disrespect, but it is a world betrayed are condemned to that cannot be comprehended. 

But I am also not ignorant of the fact many betrayals are the response of a very poor marriage. I mean, while there is no true excuse for betraying, there can be some mitigators that makes it understandable. For example, if someone was abusive and negletful in their marriage and their partner sought comfort elsewhere, OK, that's pretty $hitty, but I can certainly understand how it happened. But many betrayed did not bring it upon themselves. Not that there perfect but had marriages good enough to not deserve anything like a betrayal.They had spouses who were made a decision to betray for themselves and themselves only. Brutal and cruel betrayals. I am one in that catagory and it is for those I speak for. So if I am harsh or militant in my views, I make no apologies but I also mean no harm or offense.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

I think many here may have forgotten what i like to call the Golden Rule for the fallout of a WSs Affair....


No one should EVER confuse Forgiveness with Reconciliation for they ARE NOT THE SAME THING!


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> I wonder how long this thread would be "allowed" to exist without howling and pandemonium breaking out? After all, it is reasonable and okay for a Loyal Spouse to make sweeping judgements about "all betrayers" but could a Disloyal ever get away with this? Could we ever even suggest one disparaging thought without being told we are blameshifting? Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe one of the reasons that EI, and Regret, MrsAdams and I were able to successfully reconcile with our Loyal Spouses is that they were willing to a) not villify us and b) just look at their side.
> 
> We (the Disloyals who have kind of stuck it out) have all said a zillion times that what was on our side of the street was ours and ours alone. Full weight and responsibility for the consequences of cheating fall squarely on us. But that in no way excuses Loyals from what may or may not fall on them! I know for a fact that one of the reasons I am with my Dear Hubby is that he did not just point fingers and blame me, but we worked TOGETHER as a team to see, "Well I do tend to close down when I'm grieving" "Well I do tend to get needy when I'm grieving" "Here's what I can do about my shutting down" "Here's what I can do about my neediness."
> 
> ...


It would make no sense to have a long thread disparaging loyal spouses, as loyalty is almost universally considered a good trait, as long as it is a good person or good cause you are loyal to. You would have to come up with a negative quality of loyal spouses, then people would disparage based on that quality.

I think your thread should have asked "does a (neglectful, uncommunicative, inattentive, abusive - insert your own negative attribute) betrayed spouse ever really change?"

I think it is almost universally accepted that cheating and lying are wrong. If anyone can think of a country or religion or culture where cheating and lying are considered good, or even are not considered wrong, let me know. Even my cheating wife did not like cheaters. So having a thread that disparages cheaters makes some sense. On the other hand, disparaging former cheaters does not.

When I refer to cheaters, I am referring to cheaters who still are cheating, or at the time they were cheating, not to those who have stopped cheating.

Anyway, I have been told this is a rough crowd here on this forum.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Forest said:


> One thing's for sure. The loyal spouses often change from a somewhat contented spouse with peace of mind to a despairing, depressed spouse with absolutely no peace of mind.
> 
> Now that is some change, for ya.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

-sammy


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> Yes, and being sorry and remorse are not the same thing either.


Mr Adams... I know your story ,as by now you more than likely know mine...As having communicated with you and Mrs Adams..I have the upmost respect for you both.....You made it!


However your case is an anomaly as most cases of a BH go...

After much soul searching and research, i have found that approx. 70-75% of BHs file for divorce and the number roughly goes to 80%+ in 2-3 years....after their WWs affiair is discovered.

In MY CASE...I refused to spend (more than likely ) YEARS of trying to R..endless triggers and the the NIGHTMARE that played in my head after seeing pictures of her and the OM..

Again I applaude you both but we ALL have dealbreakers and that was mine..as ( in the case of most BHs ) we can NEVER get over the lies and betrayl and deceit our WWs brought into our lives...

NOR should I have to..


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

I give him full credit....no man has worked to achieve forgiveness like this man...it was his determination, his commitment, his persistence, his perseverance that kept us going...and I will forever be grateful. He is not a perfect man...but he is my hero. 

AS he should be HERO to us all.....


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

I was totally devoted to him...i did my best to prove my devotion...i did my best to heal him and build him up. One of the saddest parts of our story is the awful things I said to him after my affair....i told him so many things i should have kept quiet. I was so insensitive to what my words were doing to him. I wish i could take them all back...and these are the things he plays over and over in his mind...


I think most men here Want to know....I needed to know the depth of the lies and how far the betryal went..to what end...

I found out more than I bargained for...

BUT I had rather be miserable with the TRUTH than HAPPY with LIES....

It made my decision for me as it does most BHs here...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

badkarma2013 said:


> Mr Adams... I know your story ,as by now you more than likely know mine...As having communicated with you and Mrs Adams..I have the upmost respect for you both.....You made it!
> 
> 
> However your case is an anomaly as most cases of a BH go...
> ...


I think each BS has the right to decide wither their partner's infidelity is a deal breaker. Totally agree with you about that.

What I often see in TAM is people being encouraging. "Leave the cheater, there is a good woman / man out there for you like you deserve." Fine words, but I sometimes feel it's a bit like saying "Don't worry that Santa isn't real, there's another Santa out there for you." I don't believe you can find someone who is guaranteed not to cheat. There is always risk.

That doesn't necessarily mean you stay with your wayward, but for me it made the decision less clear cut.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I think each BS has the right to decide wither their partner's infidelity is a deal breaker. Totally agree with you about that.
> 
> What I often see in TAM is people being encouraging. "Leave the cheater, there is a good woman / man out there for you like you deserve." Fine words, but I sometimes feel it's a bit like saying "Don't worry that Santa isn't real, there's another Santa out there for you." I don't believe you can find someone who is guaranteed not to cheat. There is always risk.
> 
> That doesn't necessarily mean you stay with your wayward, but for me it made the decision less clear cut.


:agree: I so agree with this, as the statistics out there about cheating show that lots of people are cheaters, and the older you get, finding a partner that is not touched by infidelity gets less and less it seems. It is always stated that there is someone out there that won't betray you, but how do we know. If the person is single at a late stage in life, they are generally so because they have either gone through infidelity (as BS or WS), have been widowed, or they have possibly have something off about them that has kept them from finding a spouse. I therefor agree about the lines becoming less and less clear cut, and it makes it worse when I see the people on here come forth and admit they were betrayed in their first M and then became the betrayer in their next M, or found another cheater for their next M. 

Seems that the odds are stacked against us BS to find another loyal non-cheater for our future relationships.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> The problem is that people ask Disloyals "WHY!!??" "Why did you do that?" "What were you thinking?" "How did that happen?" (Shoot I ask myself that!) And when we try to answer, then "Oh you're just blameshifting." Well, let me ask you this; how am I supposed to attempt to answer this question? How am I supposed to evaluate it so I can learn from it to never do it again?


I think it depends on the answer for the "Why?" Some answers are blame shifting, and others are the truth.

Answer: Selfishness. (Truth)
Answer: Vanity (Truth)
Answer: Weak boundaries (Truth)
Answer: Felt Unhappy in the M (Truth, but blameshifting...he avoided communication, therapy, etc. which would have made his side of the M happier)

These truths are not enough. The wayward needs to ask deeper questions: Why am I selfish? Why am I so vain? Why do I have weak boundaries? Why do I prefer to have self pity, and avoid conflict, communication and therapy?

I get some relief that he can admit his selfishness, vanity, weak boundaries, and self pity. But until he gets to the root of those, so he can deal with them, I have my doubts that he is affair proof, and has really changed, but I wonder if he has merely put a bandaid on the gaping wound in his character that allowed him to cheat.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

Wazza;9157634]I think each BS has the right to decide wither their partner's infidelity is a deal breaker. Totally agree with you about that.

What I often see in TAM is people being encouraging. "Leave the cheater, there is a good woman / man out there for you like you deserve." Fine words, but I sometimes feel it's a bit like saying "Don't worry that Santa isn't real, there's another Santa out there for you." I don't believe you can find someone who is guaranteed not to cheat. There is always risk.

That doesn't necessarily mean you stay with your wayward, but for me it made the decision less clear cut. 




As for myself I would Never try to influence someones decision to Go or Stay...

However ..I truly believe that there comes a moment of clarity, with each BH here... that YOU KNOW if you can continue in the 
marriage or not...

Mine was when I saw the pics of my WWS affair with the OM
...I knew at that second there would be no R...and no more Marriage...

As i have stated the decision to have an A with her boss and destroy 2 families..was HERS and hers alone..

The decision to burn everything to the ground was mine..not hers.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Sadly, both change in unexpected ways too. 

In my case, Mr Disloyal has become a model citizen of a remorseful spouse. 

Mrs. Loyal has become a model of a distrusting spouse. 

Mr. Disloyal has fallen back so far in love with what he feels he has lost.

Mrs. Loyal, loved so deeply, has fallen out of love, as the betrayal was just so unbelievable.

Both struggling with our demons as we both have changed, and trying to work on ways to evolve into being better people towards each other. 

But no matter what, we can never go back to who we were to each other pre d-day...

-sammy


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

sammy3 said:


> Both struggling with our demons as we both have changed, and trying to work on ways to evolve into being better people towards each other.
> 
> *But no matter what, we can never go back to who we were to each other pre d-day...*-sammy


[sigh]


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Squeakr said:


> :agree: I so agree with this, as the statistics out there about cheating show that lots of people are cheaters, and the older you get, finding a partner that is not touched by infidelity gets less and less it seems. It is always stated that there is someone out there that won't betray you, but how do we know. If the person is single at a late stage in life, they are generally so because they have either gone through infidelity (as BS or WS), have been widowed, or they have possibly have something off about them that has kept them from finding a spouse. I therefor agree about the lines becoming less and less clear cut, and it makes it worse when I see the people on here come forth and admit they were betrayed in their first M and then became the betrayer in their next M, or found another cheater for their next M.
> 
> Seems that the odds are stacked against us BS to find another loyal non-cheater for our future relationships.



:iagree:

-sammy


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I think each BS has the right to decide wither their partner's infidelity is a deal breaker. Totally agree with you about that.
> 
> What I often see in TAM is people being encouraging. "Leave the cheater, there is a good woman / man out there for you like you deserve." Fine words, but I sometimes feel it's a bit like saying "Don't worry that Santa isn't real, there's another Santa out there for you." I don't believe you can find someone who is guaranteed not to cheat. There is always risk.


Got a laugh from me... and very true. Some guys don't move so fluidly between women, and for them I think, even the idea of finding someone new, let alone someone "safe," doesn't even seem like a possibility in their current state of mind. For those guys, they may need to hear that... yes, it's actually pretty easy to find another person. But even if you find a good one... as Wazza said, there is still risk.

It's easier to be angry, dismiss people, or seek "safety" elsewhere, than to accept the risk that is always there anyway. Sometimes you can't even trust yourself. We are human, we're not perfect, and sometimes we might even do things that would make us hate another person on a different day. It's also hard to grasp how an otherwise good person makes the series of mistakes leading to an affair. Even if there are contributing factors, and even if each step is understandable on its own, the whole picture often doesn't add up. There are usually many chances to stop, or at least slow down, but typically the WS steps on the gas instead. That highlights the weaknesses in the WS, and you wonder when/if/how/why they'll crack again.

I've now experienced infidelity first hand, I've seen it in my parents' relationships, among my friends/family, and a million different ways in media/entertainment. I thought it would be a deal-breaker for me, and maybe it still is - I don't know. I wouldn't be trying to R if I thought my WS was a bad person rather than a person who made bad decisions. One thing I liked in my WS was that we viewed infidelity in the same way. To this day, as if she doesn't even remember what she did, she'll talk about another person's infidelity with no self-awareness.

Whether or not you wish to associate with certain types of people a personal decision, and being hurt is infinitely worse when someone hurts you after you've let them into your heart, but most people who do bad things are not bad people. When you see both the good and bad in other people, and recognize those qualities in yourself as well, life becomes a lot less frustrating. Besides, seeing only black/white is boring.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Cabsy said:


> To this day, as if she doesn't even remember what she did, she'll talk about another person's infidelity with no self-awareness.


That was a very fine and interesting post.

My eye was stuck on the part I have quoted.

Why do you think that is?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I think each BS has the right to decide wither their partner's infidelity is a deal breaker. Totally agree with you about that.
> 
> What I often see in TAM is people being encouraging. "Leave the cheater, there is a good woman / man out there for you like you deserve." Fine words, but I sometimes feel it's a bit like saying "Don't worry that Santa isn't real, there's another Santa out there for you." I don't believe you can find someone who is guaranteed not to cheat. There is always risk.
> 
> That doesn't necessarily mean you stay with your wayward, but for me it made the decision less clear cut.


Usually "leave the cheater" chants at TAM are directed at BSs who seem to heading toward false reconciliation. Threads where there's evidence of the WS having remorse and doing heavy lifting hear more "good luck, stay strong" chants.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> That was a very fine and interesting post.
> 
> My eye was stuck on the part I have quoted.
> 
> Why do you think that is?


Funny, but that is exactly what caught my eye as well, as my WW will do the same thing and I will give her the look. She knows she shouldn't say anything, and then she will backtrack and state, yeah I guess I am not one to talk, and the sad part is I think she doesn't even believe it but says it to appease me. She still thinks she walks some moral high ground that other WS don't because in her mind she justified all her EA/PAs.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Funny, but that is exactly what caught my eye as well, as my WW will do the same thing and I will give her the look. She knows she shouldn't say anything, and then she will backtrack and state, yeah I guess I am not one to talk, and the sad part is I think she doesn't even believe it but says it to appease me. She still thinks she walks some moral high ground that other WS don't because in her mind she justified all her EA/PAs.


It seems to me that were I a "changed" person and genuinely remorseful I would never lose sight of my past.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> It seems to me that were I a "changed" person and genuinely remorseful I would never lose sight of my past.


My WW is neither changed or remorseful. She even writes that what she wants is to be honorable, truthful, moral, and caring. When she was asked about this by her counselor, she lied about everything related to writing it, wouldn't own her faults (even when proven to exist) and said she didn't really care what she did to me or my family and was just upset for the things she was caught for. SO she knows what she is doing when she makes those statements.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cabsy said:


> I've now experienced infidelity first hand, I've seen it in my parents' relationships, among my friends/family, and a million different ways in media/entertainment. I thought it would be a deal-breaker for me, and maybe it still is - I don't know. I wouldn't be trying to R if I thought my WS was a bad person rather than a person who made bad decisions. One thing I liked in my WS was that we viewed infidelity in the same way. *To this day, as if she doesn't even remember what she did, she'll talk about another person's infidelity with no self-awareness.*





thatbpguy said:


> That was a very fine and interesting post.
> 
> My eye was stuck on the part I have quoted.
> 
> Why do you think that is?





Squeakr said:


> Funny, but that is exactly what caught my eye as well, as my WW will do the same thing and I will give her the look. She knows she shouldn't say anything, and then she will backtrack and state, yeah I guess I am not one to talk, and the sad part is I think she doesn't even believe it but says it to appease me. She still thinks she walks some moral high ground that other WS don't because in her mind she justified all her EA/PAs.





thatbpguy said:


> It seems to me that were I a "changed" person and genuinely remorseful I would never lose sight of my past.


Since these posts are all related to each other, I wanted to address it all at once. What I'm gathering from what Casby said is that his wife had the view that infidelity is a horrible offense to marriage, and she talks about others who have been unfaithful in that tone. If I misunderstood, Casby, I apologize. Now, assuming, for a minute, that this is what he meant, I fail to understand why it's not ok for a fWS to have that position, even after infidelity. I do. It disgusts me when I hear about it, whether people I know of IRL or of celebrities. So, unless I am misunderstanding this, I, as a fWW, am not "allowed" to feel strongly that it is a wrong path, and am not "allowed" to voice this opinion? I submit that because I HAVE been disloyal to my husband, I absolutely can say it's wrong. That's not saying that a loyal spouse cannot. What I'm saying is that remorseful disloyals who have that view, that infidelity is wrong, etc., haven't lost sight of what they have done. More often than not, they are fully aware, and very remorseful, and don't want someone else to go down that path BECAUSE they know what it's like.

Again, I apologize if I misunderstood the tone of this exchange above. If I got it wrong, please, let me know.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> My WW is neither changed or remorseful. She even writes that what she wants is to be honorable, truthful, moral, and caring. When she was asked about this by her counselor, she lied about everything related to writing it, wouldn't own her faults (even when proven to exist) and said she didn't really care what she did to me or my family and was just upset for the things she was caught for. SO she knows what she is doing when she makes those statements.


Amazing.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Since these posts are all related to each other, I wanted to address it all at once. What I'm gathering from what Casby said is that his wife had the view that infidelity is a horrible offense to marriage, and she talks about others who have been unfaithful in that tone. If I misunderstood, Casby, I apologize. Now, assuming, for a minute, that this is what he meant, I fail to understand why it's not ok for a fWS to have that position, even after infidelity. I do. It disgusts me when I hear about it, whether people I know of IRL or of celebrities. So, unless I am misunderstanding this, I, as a fWW, am not "allowed" to feel strongly that it is a wrong path, and am not "allowed" to voice this opinion? I submit that because I HAVE been disloyal to my husband, I absolutely can say it's wrong. That's not saying that a loyal spouse cannot. What I'm saying is that remorseful disloyals who have that view, that infidelity is wrong, etc., haven't lost sight of what they have done. More often than not, they are fully aware, and very remorseful, and don't want someone else to go down that path BECAUSE they know what it's like.
> 
> Again, I apologize if I misunderstood the tone of this exchange above. If I got it wrong, please, let me know.


While your post is a fair one and well received by myself, I suppose it's about having some humility.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Maricha75,
For me, my WW is neither remorseful or sorry for what she did. She doesn't just make statements that it is wrong, but pass judgement against those others that are cheating as if she has some moral high road. It is one thing to say "infidelity it wrong, and I know this as I have done it" than to say "Wow she is a real slvt for sneaking around and cheating on her H. Does she have no shame?" My wife does the latter and thinks nothing of it. The whole glass house thing??


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Since these posts are all related to each other, I wanted to address it all at once.


I'm glad you asked this. I was wondering this myself. It seemed like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. A FWS condemns infidelity and they're a hypocrite. But if they were understanding of it or trying to justify it, then they'd be justifying the unjustifiable and likely to cheat again.



Squeakr said:


> Maricha75,
> For me, my WW is neither remorseful or sorry for what she did. She doesn't just make statements that it is wrong, but pass judgement against those others that are cheating as if she has some moral high road. It is one thing to say "infidelity it wrong, and I know this as I have done it" than to say "Wow she is a real slvt for sneaking around and cheating on her H. Does she have no shame?"


Glad you cleared this up. This makes sense to me.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> So are you remorseful? Maybe. And even so, can you have your legs cut off and get down in that wheelchair? Well, can you? CAN YOU??


Are you implying that the cheater should let the loyal cheat, and then all would be fair? I'm not sure I understand the point you're making.



thatbpguy said:


> So I will be critical as I have _earned_ that right.


But what does it get you? Is it conducive to the continuing relationship to perpetually beat your spouse over the head for having cheated?

Not being argumentative, just interested in furthering discussion.

Edit... this may have already been answered. I didn't read the whole thread and sort of got hooked by the passion in your reply.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> It seems to me that were I a "changed" person and genuinely remorseful I would never lose sight of my past.


Right? She is self-righteous sometimes. She'll complain about someone doing something, then she'll do it herself, but for her there is a valid exception so it's okay. She also hates, hates, hates being wrong or doing the wrong thing. So if she is in the wrong, either she doesn't acknowledge/think about it, she rationalizes it, or she becomes super defensive. I think it might be impossible for her to be the bigger person in an argument.

Even if she learns a lesson, she sometimes can't recall it when needed because her wheels are so busy spinning. Her mind is basically a counter-productive maelstrom of perpetual worry, paralysis, and self-sabotage. 

And she has poor memory. The memories she makes up tend to reflect well on her, though. 

Maricha: It's not that she can't still hold the view that betraying a loved one is abhorrent just because she's cheated. I hope she still holds that view. I'm just saying, at one point... she forgot she held this view. Or she didn't care. 

When she talks like it never happened, I feel like maybe she has forgotten again. And in that moment, she has forgotten. There's no self-awareness, she's judging this other person for doing the same things she did, and those things she did are not present anywhere in her mind. I haven't forgotten and always remember.

Like thatbpguy said, you'd think she'd remember her past; but instead, as Squeakr said, she might need "the look" to remind her. What's that about people who can't remember the past being condemned to repeat it?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Are you implying that the cheater should let the loyal cheat, and then all would be fair? I'm not sure I understand the point you're making.


No. Not at all.



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> But what does it get you? Is it conducive to the continuing relationship to perpetually beat your spouse over the head for having cheated?
> 
> Not being argumentative, just interested in furthering discussion.
> 
> Edit... this may have already been answered. I didn't read the whole thread and sort of got hooked by the passion in your reply.


Although I see your edit, it simply allows me the freedom to critique freely.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Cabsy said:


> Right? She is self-righteous sometimes. She'll complain about someone doing something, then she'll do it herself, but for her there is a valid exception so it's okay. She also hates, hates, hates being wrong or doing the wrong thing. So if she is in the wrong, either she doesn't acknowledge/think about it, she rationalizes it, or she becomes super defensive. I think it might be impossible for her to be the bigger person in an argument.
> 
> Even if she learns a lesson, she sometimes can't recall it when needed because her wheels are so busy spinning. Her mind is basically a counter-productive maelstrom of perpetual worry, paralysis, and self-sabotage.
> 
> ...


Did you marry my ex?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Maricha75,
> For me, my WW is neither remorseful or sorry for what she did. She doesn't just make statements that it is wrong, but pass judgement against those others that are cheating as if she has some moral high road. It is one thing to say "infidelity it wrong, and I know this as I have done it" than to say "Wow she is a real slvt for sneaking around and cheating on her H. Does she have no shame?" My wife does the latter and thinks nothing of it. The whole glass house thing??


Squeakr,
are you guys trying to reconcile; because that sounds like false reconciliation. If she justifies her actions as less wrong than other WS then she's not owning very much.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> Squeakr,
> are you guys trying to reconcile; because that sounds like false reconciliation. If she justifies her actions as less wrong than other WS then she's not owning very much.


In a word. NO. We, or to be truthful, I tried to R for a while. She is unremorseful and wants to rugsweep and blame shift everything with no heavy lifting, so yes you are right it is and always was false R for us. I have also realized I can't live with the disrespect and shame she brings into our lives with her actions and lack of. We have decided it is futile so now we are prepping the documents for D. So much to do in our state, we have kids, and it takes a year to D, so we are on our way to D with lots of issues to resolve..


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> In a word. NO. We, or to be truthful, I tried to R for a while. She is unremorseful and wants to rugsweep and blame shift everything with no heavy lifting, so yes you are right it is and always was false R for us. I have also realized I can't live with the disrespect and shame she brings into our lives with her actions and lack of. We have decided it is futile so now we are prepping the documents for D. So much to do in our state, we have kids, and it takes a year to D, so we are on our way to D with lots of issues to resolve..


Sorry to hear. Glad you tried.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> Sorry to hear. Glad you tried.


Glad someone is!! LOL


No Seriously I can at least walk away with my head high, as i know that it truly wasn't me and I did give it my full effort. Since she was given another chance by me and chose to not utilize to her full ability, I can show that I at least maintained my presence and half of the M throughout its duration. The only regret I have is that I didn't decide to D a year earlier and drug this out 1 year too long (hate to say I wasted it, as I did get 1 more year with full time with my kids, but hat will change with D). The first year wasn't as bad as the second, as she was somewhat trying during the first year, but year 2 she just flat out quit trying and wish we would have stopped after 1 year of trying.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

It's not about throwing it in her face repeatedly. From my perspective, she is throwing the damage she caused to our relationship in my face by constantly demonstrating a lack of awareness, understanding, and repentance. When I see her do these things, it serves as a reminder to me of the traits that led her to stray, and how can I have hope for the future... especially since I am no long content with a mediocre relationship. Never talking about it again and not acknowledging the behavior patterns that led you down the wrong path... sounds like rugsweeping. There has to be a balance between talking about issues, working through them, and moving past them. 

Besides, she's often the one who casts stones at other adulterers. I'm simply reminding her that she lives in a glass house.


thatbpguy said:


> Did you marry my ex?


Not unless you divorced her at 16. But seriously, there do seem to be a lot of common trends in waywards. Good luck, Squeakr. I feel where you're coming from.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Anyone can change for the good and the bad it really is their choice and how much patience you have in waiting for them if they turn bad.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

love=pain said:


> Anyone can change for the good and the bad it really is their choice and how much patience you have in waiting for them if they turn bad.


"patience"
interesting word for this thread.
me and the old lady have decades of patience for each other.

Actually it was worth the phucking wait! I think me and Mrs. the-guy always had a bigger picture in mind...even after all the crap like smacking the crap out of her and phucking around on me!

Sh!t...thank God for change guys or my story would have turned out a lot different.

The point here is waiting for each other to turn good, hell we started out bad, it wasn't a matter of waiting for the bad, it was waiting for the good.

After 20 yrs it finally showed up, and we both had something to do with that sh!t....hell, *I* wasnt going to do it alone. it took the both of us to pull off the crazy M and turn it into what it is today.

Getting back to "patience"..... what kind of power is out their that keeps two phucked up poeple together and end it like this (in a good way)....

I mean I truelly believe I will never drop my old lady ever again.... but then again if she phucks around again all bets are off...I believe we both get it this time. when you get at a certain age the risk out ways the reward, so you *learn" the worth of ones actions.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Usually "leave the cheater" chants at TAM are directed at BSs who seem to heading toward false reconciliation. Threads where there's evidence of the WS having remorse and doing heavy lifting hear more "good luck, stay strong" chants.


Time and again I have discussions with TAMsters who insist all cheaters are defective people. I have even been told , more than once, that my own reconciliation is false. (The affair was 24 years ago).


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Squeakr said:


> Maricha75,
> For me, my WW is neither remorseful or sorry for what she did. She doesn't just make statements that it is wrong, but pass judgement against those others that are cheating as if she has some moral high road. It is one thing to say "infidelity it wrong, and I know this as I have done it" than to say "Wow she is a real slvt for sneaking around and cheating on her H. Does she have no shame?" My wife does the latter and thinks nothing of it. The whole glass house thing??



My h too follows in line with the latter kind of thinking then adds, "See honey, everyone has problems in their marriages, we just have to work through them, we can do it! I love you!!! "

:slap:

-sammy


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

the guy said:


> "patience"
> interesting word for this thread.
> me and the old lady have decades of patience for each other.
> 
> ...


This is good to read from you Mr. The guy ! Just sorry it took you & Mrs so long to get it together. But like "they" say, 'better late than never.'

I was one of the lucky, I spent almost 30 years of good years shared with my family in a happy marriage...but, hmmm??? maybe I'm not, maybe the likes of you, and the Mr & Mrs JA that had to work a life time at a marriage, is in a better place than those who didnt...

-sammy


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

The thing that bothers me the most is that when a WS comes on here and tries to talk about the problems in the marriage. It doesn't matter that you aren't trying to use the problems to excuse the A, you will *always* be called out for either blameshifting or rewriting the marital history. I never tried to excuse my A, I never referred to it as a mistake. I've also rarely talked about the issues in my M due to the above. What I find even funnier is when the BS comes on here and backs up their WS. Then the BS is a doormat or some other derogatory name. I sometimes wonder why a WS would even bother posting on this forum. I generally stay out of CWI. It just isn't conducive to my healing.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> The thing that bothers me the most is that when a WS comes on here and tries to talk about the problems in the marriage. It doesn't matter that you aren't trying to use the problems to excuse the A, you will *always* be called out for either blameshifting or rewriting the marital history.


Depends on how the WS is telling the story. I think a lot of times the WS doesn't THINK they are blameshifting and probably needed a better way of telling their story.

Because it always comes in the form of "I am not excusing my affair, *BUT*....."

Because I think here is what a lot of us BS/fBS see. That you are telling your story of cheating on your spouse (and I haven't read your story so this isn't directed at you, just in general), but in focusing on that too many WS's start telling the back story to indicate just what LEAD to the affair. That is seen as blameshifting or justifying.

I really don't know how one can tell a backstory without it looking like that. I just don't know

I suppose if a WS simply said their marriage wasn't in a good place that might be taken ok. But too many times the WS starts rattling off what their BS did wrong or didn't do, and start making it about the BS's behavior before the cheating.




> I never tried to excuse my A, I never referred to it as a mistake. I've also rarely talked about the issues in my M due to the above.


Then I'm not sure what could have been misconstrued as blameshifting in your case.




> What I find even funnier is when the BS comes on here and backs up their WS. Then the BS is a doormat or some other derogatory name.


Well I'm never going to call a BS a derogatory name. I'm forever in their corner.

But it all depends on how the BS is handling it. If the BS has been gaslighted to hell and its obvious that they are simply wanting to slobber all over their WS and the WS has the BS wrapped around their finger, then they ARE being a doormat and the WS IS walking all over them.

I think those are rare. A BS working on the marriage is not a doormat. But if the WS is calling all the shots and the BS is the one bending over backwards to fix things, then they are being walked on.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> ....and infidelity needs a cracked marriage to occur.


Mine wasn't.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> My dear friend...it was...there is no perfect marriage....and there was something lacking or she would not have made the choice she made...it could have been and probably was within her self...but that affected the marriage.
> 
> My husband had no clue ...oh he knew something wasn't quite right...but he did not know my state of mind. He says he was fat dumb and happy...and I pulled the rug out from under him.
> 
> ...


This is true- there no perfect marriages or perfect people.

What I was conveying was that I was lustfully in love with my wife and she knew it. I was always home for dinner, took a daily interest in her and she lacked for nothing aside for money. I was willing to help her with anything if she bothered to tell me.

In other words, I did nothing (aside from not being perfect) to bring this on. I realize that in most cases betrayals arise out of poor-fair marriages, but not in my case. And she has confirmed that as has my daughter. She was chasing money and loved men. That's all there was too it, really. She just wanted a different lifestyle where she could travel the work carefree and live in the lap of luxury. I couldn't giver her that. So she went looking for it.

As I look back there are things I wish I had done differently, but I doubt it would have made a big difference.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> Mine wasn't.


Agreed. Sometimes it just needs a cracked person.

Or possibly in saying infidelity needs a cracked marriage, that the person doing the cheating just isn't suited for marriage, therefore the marriage is cracked.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> And that I can agree with...the crack was within her....absolutely
> 
> In our case..I was the crack...I don't know why or how it got there..I was happy..and then I wasn't...
> 
> ...


If I may ask a personal question- was it depression?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I don't know...sometimes I wonder about it myself....I wish I could tell you.
> 
> He knew I was felling bad about myself which is why he suggested I go back to school...and I was excited about it....but I sure wish now I had just stayed home where I belonged in my own little world...where I was safe.
> 
> But we never know do we...


After my wife's second betrayal she tried to kill herself with a knife and I had to restrain her. I took her to a psychiatrist and she was diagnosed with mederate to severe depression. She got some treatment and meds that helped, but still went on to betray again.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Maybe your wife has always had Some issues and you just didn't know it.


Perhaps. If so I have never heard of what they might be.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Same as thatbpguy… our marriage was in good shape. Then because of her own issues, she stopped having sex regularly and saw it as manipulation or being used. That started a whole chain of dynamics and attitudes culminating in our son being molested (which threw her off into the deep end). I didn’t react ‘wrong’; I wasn’t happy about a sexless marriage and acted like I was unhappy. Oh, and for additional mental jollies for her, I opposed the place she sent him where he got molested; She had to prove to herself I didn’t control her so she sent him there anyway… I protected my son too from her inquisition and mental torture in her need to pacify her own distress and triggers. 

She let that feed her ‘just wants sex’ thing and “is against me” perceptions. And she reacted worse and worse instead of addressing and issues that stemmed from within her that started it all. That issue predates me; rape victim (and probable sexual abuse victim). BIL’s story isn’t substantially different except his wife (my wife’s sister) went to alcohol instead of hookups. 

Those old traumas issues create a ‘control’ thing where they somehow need to prove they ‘have a spine’ by not allowing others to get what they want from them. Denial, even of things that are in their interest like SIL’s rehab attempts, were more about rebelling against others wanting this out of them. “I won’t be controlled!” is the crazy battle cry as they flush themselves down the toilet to prove no one can tell them how to live.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Pride is a double edged sword. Sometimes it helps save a marriage and sometimes it destroys one.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> This is true- there no perfect marriages or perfect people.
> 
> What I was conveying was that I was lustfully in love with my wife and she knew it. I was always home for dinner, took a daily interest in her and she lacked for nothing aside for money. I was willing to help her with anything if she bothered to tell me.
> 
> ...


Thatbpguy,

I could have had the same argument. Our WSs may have had a different perception in our cases (and Racer's).

I strongly agree with the bolded statement.

Just as every WS has shades of gray in the extent of their cheating, I believe that there is a spectrum of gray in their perception of their marriage quality.

In my mind I had a wonderful marriage of 20 years. It changed during the affair time. Was it me or the affair that caused the change? Those final 3 years were a b!tch. 23 years total.

Looking back on the 20 good years, I can see signs of a weak person with traits of BPD. Not an excuse or a diagnosis, just an observation.

It seems some waywards just need to try it out. I wonder if it is an internal clock that finally causes it to happen.

The experience also became a great "teacher." It taught me about myself and fidelity. It also opened the door for me to try a new path, and experience a different life. I am grateful for the new path just as much as I am for the years leading to it.

Life can suck. We all hit the bottom sometimes. Success is determined when we decide to get back up and move ahead.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> With all due respect, I call "baloney" on you post.
> 
> Until you walk a mile in my shoes you can never never never never never never never never ever possibly know what I went/go though.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Simply one of the best posts I have seen on TAM. Bravo :smthumbup:


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> The thing that bothers me the most is that when a WS comes on here and tries to talk about the problems in the marriage. It doesn't matter that you aren't trying to use the problems to excuse the A, you will *always* be called out for either blameshifting or rewriting the marital history. I never tried to excuse my A, I never referred to it as a mistake. I've also rarely talked about the issues in my M due to the above. What I find even funnier is when the BS comes on here and backs up their WS. Then the BS is a doormat or some other derogatory name. I sometimes wonder why a WS would even bother posting on this forum. I generally stay out of CWI. It just isn't conducive to my healing.


That's because many WS use the state of the marriage as the reason they cheated, and then they take the next step and insinuate that the betrayed spouse was somehow more responsible for the state of the marriage than they were, and somehow this betrayed spouse that is being decieved, lied to, tricked and snuck around on, one day is supposed to believe that the lies and manipulation happened AFTER the bad state of the marriage, and not before, they caused it, which to me seems a tad assinine... to talk about problems in the marriage, insinuate that the betrayed spouse is to take a big portion of the blame, and ignore that the wayward spouse is being sneaky and less than honest.. They have proven a few things, they can manipulate, they can lie, they can shift blame to you for choices they make that you were unaware of. That's the simple point that gets lost in these blame shifting threads.

It takes two to make a marriage bad, and after we find out one partner cheated, why do we assume the one that's shown more integrity and been faithful is the one that initiated the downfall of the relationship and not the one that wasn't happy and was hiding it and sneaking out for an 'escape from reality'?? They'll say "we tried to talk about it", but they always leave out the boyfriend or girlfriend, and give the BS half the story, just enough to confuse and push them away a bit.

I still can't blame the one being decieved, for the deception.. so talk about marriage problems in the marriage problem forum, don't tell me marriage problems is why you cheated, especially if you leave out the part about you being too flirty, having poor boundaries, being selfish and not caring about lying and sneaking etc.. etc.. The WS often hides the fact they aren't happy from the spouse, they internalize everything and build up resentments and eventually use those as justifications. When they take those built up resentments, and mention them in the context of infidelity as 'we had problems in our marriage', that's bullcrap.. the problem was you cheated as a solution instead of working on it or leaving, period.

So yes, this forum is bad if you don't want to hear truth, and would prefer to just blindly kiss the buttocks of any former WS that posts, even if they are trying to blow smoke up your behind...

I respect a WS that can talk about having an affair, without bringing up the sate of the marriage prior to the affair but instead talks about the weaknesses and character issues and things that led them to have poor boundaries, low self respect things like that.. not things about what the BS was doing prior to being cheated on. My wife says things like "I should have told you I was feeling like that"... that's they key right there, she should have told me, not him.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Agreed. Sometimes it just needs a cracked person.
> 
> Or possibly in saying infidelity needs a cracked marriage, that the person doing the cheating just isn't suited for marriage, therefore the marriage is cracked.


Thank you for saying this. Was also true in my marriage. I was not perfect nor was the relationship but was nothing bad and we were the envy of all our friends. She was the light of my life and treated as such but she was broken person with huge men hating attitudes. She only cares about herself first. She cheated not because she was unhappy and told me as such. Just was wanted what she wanted. 



I have nothing but respect for cheated spouse who forgive and keep their marriages. I respect that is their decision even if I don't agree. I wish more of that type of respect was given back to those of us who cant forgive and reconcile. It's also a legitimate choice.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Thank you for saying this. Was also true in my marriage. I was not perfect nor was the relationship but was nothing bad and we were the envy of all our friends. She was the light of my life and treated as such but she was broken person with huge men hating attitudes. She only cares about herself first. She cheated not because she was unhappy and told me as such. *Just was wanted what she wanted.*
> 
> 
> 
> I have nothing but respect for cheated spouse who forgive and keep their marriages. I respect that is their decision even if I don't agree. I wish more of that type of respect was given back to those of us who cant forgive and reconcile. It's also a legitimate choice.


To her credit, she was honest in admitting the bolded part.

Do some waywards really believe in the stories they tell themselves? 

God bless those waywards that realize what they have done.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

russell28 said:


> That's because many WS use the state of the marriage as the reason they cheated, and then they take the next step and insinuate that the betrayed spouse was somehow more responsible for the state of the marriage than they were, and somehow this betrayed spouse that is being decieved, lied to, tricked and snuck around on, one day is supposed to believe that the lies and manipulation happened AFTER the bad state of the marriage, and not before, they caused it, which to me seems a tad assinine... to talk about problems in the marriage, insinuate that the betrayed spouse is to take a big portion of the blame, and ignore that the wayward spouse is being sneaky and less than honest.. They have proven a few things, they can manipulate, they can lie, they can shift blame to you for choices they make that you were unaware of. That's the simple point that gets lost in these blame shifting threads.
> 
> It takes two to make a marriage bad, and after we find out one partner cheated, why do we assume the one that's shown more integrity and been faithful is the one that initiated the downfall of the relationship and not the one that wasn't happy and was hiding it and sneaking out for an 'escape from reality'?? They'll say "we tried to talk about it", but they always leave out the boyfriend or girlfriend, and give the BS half the story, just enough to confuse and push them away a bit.
> 
> ...


If a cheating spouse starts off with "I was miserable" or "my spouse was this or that" I tend to tune out the rest of what they have to say. That is blameshifitng - period. What I also find perplexing is that BOTH spouses were in the unhappy marriage but only ONE cheated. Waywards never really grapple with that do they? I think there is this sense of entitlement and lots of people enable this by telling the BS well they were unhappy so what did you expect. The question I always ask is lets say a few years down the line the BS is unhappy and cheats I wonder how many WS offer the same forgiveness they are seeking? :scratchhead:


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> If a cheating spouse starts off with "I was miserable" or "my spouse was this or that" I tend to tune out the rest of what they have to say. That is blameshifitng - period. What I also find perplexing is that BOTH spouses were in the unhappy marriage but only ONE cheated. Waywards never really grapple with that do they? I think there is this sense of entitlement and lots of people enable this by telling the BS well they were unhappy so what did you expect. The question I always ask is lets say a few years down the line the BS is unhappy and cheats I wonder how many WS offer the same forgiveness they are seeking? :scratchhead:


They use that as part of the reason, you didn't cheat so they must've been doing fine, you obviously weren't, because they cheated. Proof you were a bad spouse, not perfect therefore pushed them to cheat.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

russell28 said:


> They use that as part of the reason, you didn't cheat so they must've been doing fine, you obviously weren't, because they cheated. Proof you were a bad spouse, not perfect therefore pushed them to cheat.


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Bases on their reasoning you should have gone out and cheated and then you would have been an unhappy aggrieved spouse as well.

The WS knows how to stack the deck in their favor don't they? They get the thrill of the cheat and get to be the victim at the same time. Interesting isnt it?


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Truthseeker1 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree: Bases on their reasoning you should have gone out and cheated and then you would have been an unhappy aggrieved spouse as well.
> 
> *The WS knows how to stack the deck in their favor don't they? They get the thrill of the cheat and get to be the victim at the same time. Interesting isnt it?*


I never implied Joe was the reason I cheated. I did it, I own it. I made a horrible choice and hurt a good man. 

As to the part I bolded, some of us do get to do that. Those of us that have spouses that had a RA. Maybe victim is too strong a word but, I did get to feel like what it's like to be on the other side. Just like Joe thought we were fine when I cheated, I thought we were working on things when he cheated.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> I never implied Joe was the reason I cheated. I did it, I own it. I made a horrible choice and hurt a good man.
> 
> As to the part I bolded, some of us do get to do that. Those of us that have spouses that had a RA. Maybe victim is too strong a word but, I did get to feel like what it's like to be on the other side. Just like Joe thought we were fine when I cheated, I thought we were working on things when he cheated.


Pidge I've read some of your posts and from what I read you NEVER blamed your husband. You owned it so that post absolutely does *not* apply to you.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Pidge I've read some of your posts and from what I read you NEVER blamed your husband. You owned it so that post absolutely does *not* apply to you.


Thank you.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> If a cheating spouse starts off with "I was miserable" or "my spouse was this or that" I tend to tune out the rest of what they have to say. That is blameshifitng - period. What I also find perplexing is that BOTH spouses were in the unhappy marriage but only ONE cheated. Waywards never really grapple with that do they? I think there is this sense of entitlement and lots of people enable this by telling the BS well they were unhappy so what did you expect. *The question I always ask is lets say a few years down the line the BS is unhappy and cheats I wonder how many WS offer the same forgiveness they are seeking?*


I did. And even while I was able to forgive him, I couldn't forgive myself, and couldn't grasp how my husband was able to forgive me. You know that second mother I mentioned earlier in the thread? It took her, my mom, my dad, and my sisters to break through to me, to understand and accept the forgiveness offered. Even now, it amazes me. And I don't feel as though I am walking on eggshells, waiting for the other shoe to drop, etc.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> Thank you.


You're welcome.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> I did. And even while I was able to forgive him, I couldn't forgive myself, and couldn't grasp how my husband was able to forgive me. You know that second mother I mentioned earlier in the thread? It took her, my mom, my dad, and my sisters to break through to me, to understand and accept the forgiveness offered. Even now, it amazes me. And I don't feel as though I am walking on eggshells, waiting for the other shoe to drop, etc.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


If I remember correctly you both had EAs. I don't think my post applies to you either. You never justified anything and never seemed entitled to me.

I've know of a case where the wife *had a child with the OM* and told her husband wives have affairs every day and husbands get over it so why couldn't he? And used the poor state of the marriage as her justification for her affair. BTW she still has no remorse to this day. My post refers to people like her.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

How about asking both a BS and wayward:

"What is the worst thing that ever happened to you?"

I, like many here would say my spouse's affair. It is the worst thing that has happened to me in my life. Pretty serious stuff. For the betrayed, this really did "happen to you". Outside of your control. Caused by another without your permission or input. It was a fate decided for you, by your spouse.

Lets say that a wayward then chimes in that the affair was also the worst thing that has ever occurred in their life. Now, we can point out that the affair didn't really "happen to you" in their case. It was something they chose to do. Very different than the situation visited upon their spouse.

Ultimately, They (the wayward) had control over the matter, made the choice, and caused it to happen. They also controlled every aspect of the situation. Its duration, its acts, its impact on their spouse and family. All those factors were of lesser importance than whatever thrill of satisfaction they derived from the affair. Forgotten, disregarded collateral damage.

That's is a magnum load of responsibility that most waywards would rather not delve into.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Clearly for me it was being betrayed. It destroyed me, our marriage, our family, our daughter, and has been a life long prison sentence.

If I were to try and guess what my ex would say, that'd be tough. If she were honest it wouldn't be her first betrayal as she thought she had met Mr. Moneybags in the flesh and after wrote him letters about how exciting it all was. Maybe it was the third betrayal. It was with some guy fresh out of prison and she was taking off her wedding ring and just playing the prostitute. I think she regrets slinking so low.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Sammy...you have to work a lifetime to have a good marriage regardless if infidelity occurred or didn't.
> 
> Infidelity just makes it more difficult. Good marriages don't just happen...two people have to put the relationship above everything else...when that doesn't happen...the marriage isn't as strong as it should be and could be. In our case...it was a hard lesson learned....I never take for granted the relationship we have...and I appreciate so much the chance he gave me to honor him for the hero he is to me.



See, this is were I differ, my neighbor and very close friend of a marriage of 46 years, my mom of a marriage of 62 years, my aunts of marriages 57... yes, one has to work at marriages...but, these marriages I speak of were easy marriages, not marriages that had to be worked at everyday and asked "How are you ??? What am I doing wrong or right today? How can I love you more today? What mistakes I have learned today?" Constant checking non stop of how one is in the marriage... but marriages of comfort, knowing they were keepers, a safe place... we all spoke how we felt they were easy. Easy to relate to, easy to get along with, easy to have the same wants and dreams. Easy facing the same directions... having each other back without a huge assault constantly being apart of it all. I'm not an idiot to think there isnt a certain degree of work that needs to be done in a marriage, after all, I was a faithful spouse, for almost 30 years, I did learn learned skills how to deal with issues...

So maybe it's the the right path, hurt each other in the the very beginning, proving what one can do to each other, than letting each other believe other wise...maybe it keep the complacency at bay... 


-sammy


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I have changed in one fundamental way. If I ever marry again.....IF.....I will not be faithful I one way: tolerance.

If I marry again she can expect me to devote the rest of my life being the man she needs. I will devote myself very day to bringing her joy and making her know she is loved above all others. That is a pact I have made with myself.

But...

I have $7,000 in a money market account. It has been there for a year or so. I keep it right at $7,000 on the nugget. The monthly interest I make off it gets skimmed off to other accounts. My next wife, if there is one, will never get to enjoy this money. ,

It is my "bail" money. No, not to bail myself out of jail, but to have something to fall back on if I have to bail out of the marriage and post a hasty exit.

My future wife would be made very ware of this. There are specific behaviors I will not tolerate, and if she does violate these behaviors....I am gone. Gone so fast she will not have time to catch her breath.

If I catch wind of her flirting or talking inappropriately to man she works with, and I have eyewitness proof....gone.

If I catch her acting like a dirty slvt with another man or men at a party or social gathering, she will be left there and when she gets home she will not find me there. All she will know. If what happened to me is what information she gets from my lawyer when she is served.

I catch her dirty dancing with another man at a club or party....I'm gone.

No GNOs at bars or nightclubs....period. I don't mind if she gets together with girlfriends for happy hour on a Friday after work as long as she's home by 8:00 pm. The subject of GNOs will be brought up pre-marriage. She will be informed that I will not tolerate them....period, and if she has a problem with that...wedding off. I'm not going there. I'm just not. She can marry one of her BFFs. 

I will be 100% transparent with my e-mails, texts and phone, and I will expect the same in return. If she has a problem with that? Fin. 

Spy hardware and key loggers will be installed on our computers. I catch her talking, sexting, having an internet affair....I will be packed, in my truck and vacated for the house so fast the resulting vacuum of air will implode the living room.

I catch her in contact with old boyfriends or ex-lovers without my prior knowledge? I'm gone. Vanished. A ghost. 

Vacations, alone, out of the country without me? Not going to happen. She will return to an empty house.

I come home and catch a man, outside of her siblings, in my house alone with her, I will calmly ask her to call an ambulance. The next day or two after I bail myself out of jail for aggravated assault, I will return home, pack up and be gone within an hour.

For the first five years of the marriage, all my personal belongings (rifles, guns, tools, and keepsakes) will be stored in my enclosed 12 foot trailer sitting in the back yard or carport. She screws me over all I have to do is back the truck up to it, hook it up, throw my clothes in the back and I am history.

That is what my next wife has to look forwards to. Romantic huh?


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Re: Does a Loyal Spouse Really Ever Change?*



bandit.45 said:


> I have changed in one fundamental way. If I ever marry again.....IF.....I will not be faithful I one way: tolerance.
> 
> If I marry again she can expect me to devote the rest of my life being the man she needs. I will devote myself very day to bringing her joy and making her know she is loved above all others. That is a pact I have made with myself.
> 
> ...


....romantic? ...nope.

....realistic and understandable?

....absolutely!!


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> I have changed in one fundamental way. If I ever marry again.....IF.....I will not be faithful I one way: tolerance.
> 
> If I marry again she can expect me to devote the rest of my life being the man she needs. I will devote myself very day to bringing her joy and making her know she is loved above all others. That is a pact I have made with myself.
> 
> ...



Nothing like having your Self Esteem DESTROYED..Your self worth crushed and nothing left of 2 families but SCORCHED EARTH, to quickly change ones mind about how the NEXT game will be played..

The woman i am with now understands these terms..as she is also a BS...

ANY HINT OF THE ABOVE and its Goodbye MOTHERF%@KER...

I can promise you this...i will never look back , not for one second.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I've know of a case where the wife *had a child with the OM* and told her husband wives have affairs every day and husbands get over it so why couldn't he? And used the poor state of the marriage as her justification for her affair. BTW she still has no remorse to this day. My post refers to people like her.


My way of "getting over" such a thing would be to kick her to the curb -- hard, immediately, and forever.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> My way of "getting over" such a thing would be to kick her to the curb -- hard, immediately, and forever.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


They have 4 others kids and can not afford to split up. He did disestablish paternity and engaged in at least one RA. Which drove her crazy - she was offended he would cheat and said you can not live in this house if you are cheating. You can't make this stuff up. It is a pretty destructive relationship, I do not think they have done one thing to even try to make things better. So they live together making eachother miserable everyday.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> GusPolinski said:
> 
> 
> > My way of "getting over" such a thing would be to kick her to the curb -- hard, immediately, and forever.
> ...


Sorry, wouldn't matter to me, and any children involved would be better off seeing their parents live apart instead of watching them slowly destroy each other.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Sorry, wouldn't matter to me, and any children involved would be better off seeing their parents live apart instead of watching them slowly destroy each other.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


:iagree::iagree: Agree 100% I was told he could not afford the divorce. Oh get this the OM and the wife planned their get away and were going to be together forever. Ahh true love. But guess what the OM sent her packing and ran home to his wife. Are you shocked? Looks like he just wanted to fool around. I'm stunned.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> I have changed in one fundamental way. If I ever marry again.....IF.....I will not be faithful I one way: tolerance.
> 
> If I marry again she can expect me to devote the rest of my life being the man she needs. I will devote myself very day to bringing her joy and making her know she is loved above all others. That is a pact I have made with myself.
> 
> ...


Wow, yeap bandit, 

Guilty before charged... I never ever want to take on another person infidelity. Double whammy, if you "do" marry again & it's a BS, not only are they hurt the first time around, but to live in the shadows of of a ww... no thank you, Ill past, I'll stay with the hugs from my Saint Bernard...

-sammy


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

sammy3 said:


> Wow, yeap bandit,
> 
> Guilty before charged... I never ever want to take on another person infidelity. Double whammy, if you "do" marry again & it's a BS, not only are they hurt the first time around, but to live in the shadows of of a ww... no thank you, Ill past, I'll stay with the hugs from my Saint Bernard...
> 
> -sammy


You don't know what you're missing. 

All of that is a cheap price for my special brand of lovin'.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Haven't read through the entire thread yet (I know, I know), but I'll ask a question that may not have been asked just yet... (and everyone feel free to answer)

What would you say it is that makes a spouse "loyal"?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> How about asking both a BS and wayward: "What is the worst thing that ever happened to you?"


The worst thing that happened to me was being 12 years old and having my own mother scream at me for hours, then hit me with a broom handle until she got tired. I had bruises from my shoulders to my knees because as she got tired, she'd "miss" and swing high or low. Then she'd put me on the basement stairs until I "repented" and I had a hard heart and would never apologize for whatever sin I had supposedly committed...so I frequently was forgotten on the basement stairs. 

The second worst thing that occurred to me was being raped in college. 

Those events were foundation-shakingly painful. And after those two things, the third worst thing that happened to me was when I got irrefutable proof that my first husband had cheated...and as I dug deeper, discovered he'd been cheating with different women for our whole marriage. 



> What would you say it is that makes a spouse "loyal"?


I would say 100% of my spouse's affection and loyalty. 

On April 7th, my friend's husband had a major heart attack, and he had been in a coma ever since. Yesterday he died. This time when my Dear Hubby and I heard, we were both upset, but now I know him and he knows me. I gave him the space to be quiet and think about it, and I asked for what I needed: to be held. He held me while he was quiet, and on the occasion would ask "How are you doing?" and I would tell him the truth. 

The reason this is relevant is that prior to my EA, we did not know each other and did not know how the other person "grieved." We took the time to recover and did the work to have an open, honest marriage and now I know how to give him 100% of my affection and loyalty, but also that I just as equally have 100% of his affection and loyalty.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> The worst thing that happened to me was being 12 years old and having my own mother scream at me for hours, then hit me with a broom handle until she got tired. I had bruises from my shoulders to my knees because as she got tired, she'd "miss" and swing high or low. Then she'd put me on the basement stairs until I "repented" and I had a hard heart and would never apologize for whatever sin I had supposedly committed...so I frequently was forgotten on the basement stairs.


That's terrible for a parent to do.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

No doubt. I know someone whose aunt used to make her, her brother, and her cousins (the aunt's children) kneel on uncooked rice when they "misbehaved" similarly.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> What would you say it is that makes a spouse "loyal"?





Affaircare said:


> I would say 100% of my spouse's affection and loyalty.
> 
> On April 7th, my friend's husband had a major heart attack, and he had been in a coma ever since. Yesterday he died. This time when my Dear Hubby and I heard, we were both upset, but now I know him and he knows me. I gave him the space to be quiet and think about it, and I asked for what I needed: to be held. He held me while he was quiet, and on the occasion would ask "How are you doing?" and I would tell him the truth.
> 
> The reason this is relevant is that prior to my EA, we did not know each other and did not know how the other person "grieved." We took the time to recover and did the work to have an open, honest marriage and now I know how to give him 100% of my affection and loyalty, but also that I just as equally have 100% of his affection and loyalty.


This is more or less the reply that I expected (or, at least, hoped) to receive.

More tomorrow. I'm tired.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> More tomorrow. I'm tired.


AKA, I'm an old man.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> AKA, I'm an old man.


Ha! Older than some, younger than others. But still... I won't deny that I'm getting there.

Some days more quickly than others.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I think each BS has the right to decide wither their partner's infidelity is a deal breaker. Totally agree with you about that.
> 
> What I often see in TAM is people being encouraging. "Leave the cheater, there is a good woman / man out there for you like you deserve." Fine words, but I sometimes feel it's a bit like saying "Don't worry that Santa isn't real, there's another Santa out there for you." I don't believe you can find someone who is guaranteed not to cheat. There is always risk.
> 
> That doesn't necessarily mean you stay with your wayward, but for me it made the decision less clear cut.


Wazza

I think the data still show that most women do not physically cheat on a husband during their lifetimes. But it's true that one has no guarentee they have chosen we'll, minimized the chances to the extent needed.

Something occurs to me though. Once one side breaks their vows, I think the other sides vows lose their meaning. To stay with someone that has betrayed you....ok. but why commit to them in the same way again. I.e. I think I'd feel better if I agreed to stay but did NOT agree to remain sexually exclusive. That's the only way I think I could stay and maintain my self-respect. Ppp the BS
Should not be expected to put all their sexual eggs in one basket again, so to speak.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

nuclearnightmare said:


> Wazza
> 
> I think the data still show that most women do not physically cheat on a husband during their lifetimes. But it's true that one has no guarentee they have chosen we'll, minimized the chances to the extent needed.
> 
> ...


The data I see increasingly suggests that both genders cheat equally. I tend to subscribe to the theory that women were once less willing to admit it, hence the statistical difference. It makes sense to me that for every act of heterosexual infidelity there is a woman involved.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> It makes sense to me that for every act of heterosexual infidelity there is a woman involved.


That's a sound theory but it doesn't mean that the woman is always committing infidelity. If she is single and not in a committed relationship then she is not truly committing infidelity but merely having intercourse with someone whom is. Thus her actions wouldn't count for that statistical against women (and the same would hold true with the genders reversed).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> That's a sound theory but it doesn't mean that the woman is always committing infidelity. If she is single and not in a committed relationship then she is not truly committing infidelity but merely having intercourse with someone whom is. Thus her actions wouldn't count for that statistical against women (and the same would hold true with the genders reversed).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If anyone wants to go on the search for the person who is guaranteed not to cheat, it's their choice but I reckon it's quixotic. I may be wrong. 

I don't want to get too distracted by unresolvable speculation about statistics. To be honest, I suspect nuclearnightmare went there because he is male and would like it to be true that there is a greater chance of a female being faithful than a mail. I don't think it's true, but even if it is I don't think it changes my basic conclusions.

Relationships are hard. There is no certainty, however much we might want it.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> If both husband and wife agree to whatever the arrangement in marriage then it is between them and none of my business.
> 
> We have known couples in open marriage and who are swingers, most are now divorced. I can think on one couple who tried to talk us into it. They told us how it made their marriage so much stronger. They are now divorced. Play with fire, you get the results.
> 
> Being a basic, old fashioned type guy, I certainly do not think it is asking too much to have a faithful spouse. All of us here can rationalize that all of us are capable of cheating. While that is probably true, I still think the majority of people can be and are faithful.


I also knew a couple like this - not married but living together for years. The guy was a total wreck his gf loved the lifestyle but it destroyed him but he never had the strength to leave her. He seemed sad all the time. When I spoke to her she told me that she would leave for weekends to spend with her new conquest while he sat at home. Didn't get it myself. why be in a relationship if you want to sleep around.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: Does a Loyal Spouse Really Ever Change?*



GusPolinski said:


> Haven't read through the entire thread yet (I know, I know), but I'll ask a question that may not have been asked just yet... (and everyone feel free to answer)
> 
> What would you say it is that makes a spouse "loyal"?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


has/puts faith in their marriage.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Oh and she didn't refer to it as swinging but being a member of the "polyamorous community."


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Loyal= putting the wants and needs of your spouse before your own, have their best interest at heart, stand up for them, protect them



:iagree:

This is exactly how both partners in a marriage, or in any committed, monogamous relationship should strive to be. When only one partner, in the relationship, is consistently living in accordance with these ideals, resentment will eventually begin to fester.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Loyal= putting the wants and needs of your spouse before your own, have their best interest at heart, stand up for them, protect them


I thought about this for a while. I see loyalty very differently. For me it is about living up to the commitments I made when I married.

To that extent things got very complex after the affair. First of all, like many here, I took the approach of the old marriage being dead, and I needed to rebuild something new. Second, as I though through things, I realised how little either Mrs Wazza or I had understood marriage at the outset. There was a lot we needed to talk about. 

This forced me to redefine what I meant by marriage, and forge a new deal with Mrs Wazza. Some things did not change. Our marriage is to be monogamous for example. Other things did change. I still believe in marriage for life, but I am more prepared to countenance divorce should the need arise, and I actively consider it in my planning. 

Regarding your definition of loyalty....I do most of that, but I will not put Mrs Wazza's needs before my own. I will seek to care for both of our needs. I think one of the original problems in our marriage was that I put her needs first too much. It led to some things being taken for granted. 



Mrs. John Adams said:


> Now we are loyal to each other....but he did change after my affair. He made sure I knew he wanted me. ...and he makes sure of it everyday.


You don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but how does this match up with his revenge affair? Sorry, I know it is painful question. As I understand your guys journey, you know he wanted you before you had your affair, but you took him for granted. So what changed? Or have I got that all wrong?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I have this feeling that a BS saying anything hurtful to Mrs John Adams would be the beginning of a verbal beat down and humbling experience from Mr John Adams. :smthumbup:


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> The nice thing about us both being here is you get both perspectives...and we hope it helps.


It's rare and priceless. Almost everyone here including me could re-write our stories if we wanted to (I'm not confessing to that btw) to suite our egos or who we wanted to be instead of who we were. But you and Mr JA are held accountable by each other.

After enough posts, sincerity is more clear however newcomers to TAM get what they get, words from anonymous strangers. They haven't been here long enough to weigh credibility.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

And just in case....I was not trying to attack, I am considering truths. If it came across as attacking I apologise.

It's sometimes hard to know when to "go there" and when not with this subject matter. I wrote earlier I had to reconsider what marriage meant, and I guess for me that is a continuous process.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Honestly I think that the general idea is that each spouse puts the needs of his/her spouse before his/her own. So, if I'm putting Mrs. Gus' needs ahead of my own, and she's reciprocating, both of us are having our needs met by the other.

But what's the other half of this? Duh. Communication. If I feel that Mrs. Gus isn't meeting my needs, I have to tell her, and vice versa. Thankfully, we've gotten much better at this.

Now, once infidelity has reared it's ugly head, it can be very difficult for a BS to put his/her spouse's needs before his/her own, as well as trust in the ability/willingness of his/her WS to do the same. Even still, once reconciliation has been selected as the chosen path, I'd think that all due effort would be put forth *by both parties* in order to re-establish all facets of the marital bond.


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

I don't know what makes a person loyal. In a sense, I think it is like courage in combat for soldiers. We are all loyal and all intend to be loyal and all think we will be loyal--until we are tested, and some of us find at that moment of testing--and it might take a very particular kind of test that comes only by bad chance-- that we are not.

Just like soldiers are all brave and think they are brave and want to be brave. But in combat some soldiers are not.

And it does not go to being good or bad people. Some loyal people can have a host of other character defects, some very serious. And many people who at one time were disloyal in their marriages, are, in fact, truly good people.

As I have gotten older and made mistakes and faced responsibility for other serious forms of abandonment I have committed against those I love, I have thought a lot about loyalty. I have not had an affair. I have been sexually loyal to my wife without fail. I have felt the earliest flickers of emotional disloyalty. But good boundaries have helped me stamp those embers out rather than blow on them and nurture them into a flame.

So where do good boundaries come from--or, not the boundaries themselves, but the commitment to policing them and keeping them? For me, it seems closely tied to empathy. I think for me, it is the anticipation of the pain that my beloved one would feel were I to betray her, that keeps the idea of betrayal from ever having any glamor or fantasy. In war, truth is the first casualty they say. In betrayal, empathy is the first casualty. Long before the act of betrayal is consummated.

But we all have our weak spots. My boundaries against infidelity are good. My boundaries against the seduction of self-pity and self-absorption and depression were not good. And that is how I inflicted harm to my loved ones and my marriage.

I live in a glass house. I try to stay away from stones.


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

One other thought. I think we need two different words, because there are really two different ideas here.

One is Fidelity. In this context, a spouse is being faithful by not having a sexual or emotional affair. To me fidelity is a very praiseworthy virtue, and one I highly value. But I also think that for a lot of people, it is like the ability to jump high or tell a good joke--it is just a trait they have. It is not actually a lot of work for them. They just kind come with a bias toward fidelity.

The other is Loyalty. To me, Loyalty is more complicated and rich and nuanced. It is active, not passive. To be faithful is a negative choice, its NOT doing something. To be loyal is active. It includes sexual and emotional fidelity, but beyond that it includes a passionate attachment to the happiness and best interest of your partner above your own. Feeling her pain more than your own. "Cut her, hurt me."

I have always been faithful, but I have not always been as truly Loyal as I want to be. Sometimes I valued my own pain more than anyone else's. That was not loyal. And I regret it very much and don't want to be that person again.

So does the faithful spouse ever really change? No, or, only for the worse. Faithful is a zero sum game. You are or you are not. You are in a state of fidelity, or of infidelity.

Can the "loyal" spouse become more loyal? Absolutely. Especially if he or she was faithful, but nevertheless, a long way from completely loyal in all senses at some point on the journey.


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