# I don't know what to do



## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

I am thinking of leaving my husband and I don't know if I'm making the right decision. I'm not happy in the marriage but I keep asking myself "Is this as good as it gets in a marriage?" "Should I really be complaining?" "Could it be worse and I should be happy with what I have?"

I feel alone most of the time. The most recent fight started a couple of nights ago when I was upset and crying about something. My husband's idea of comfort was to say a couple of things (which I guess was an honest attempt on his part to console) but then after about 10 minutes of nobody speaking I realized he had fallen asleep. I was extremely hurt by this and told him I was done with our marrriage.


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## rr25 (Apr 24, 2010)

I know exactly how you feel. Especially is this how good it gets and I should be happy withwhat I have. 
For me I have a niggling doubt that marriage can be much better than this for me anyway. Life is hard enough to live through without the unhappiness from within the family home.
How long have you felt this unhappiness in your marriage?
With your husband falling asleep I doubt he meant it as hard as that is to say for even me. Men I have I have found do not have the sensetive factor, and can be very cold with what they say.

My mother once said once you set the divorce in motion its very hard to stop. Why not try relationship councilsing. Have a neutral side to which can look at both emotions objectively without being personal involved.

I hope I have said something to help you.


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

If you have to ask that, apparently the love is not unconditional.... Maybe you should check out a book called the love dare, it can change everything.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

rr25

Thanks for your reply. I don't really have anyone to talk to and I feel so alone. It's hard to recall exactly when the unhappiness set in but I'd say I've felt this way alot in the last 4 years or so. I know that men don't really have the sensitive factor but you know, I read some posts online from men who say some sensitive things and I think, if they are capable then why isn't my husband? He had to have known that falling asleep at that point and time would not be a good thing to do, yet he did. What upsets me even more is knowing that he wouldn't have fallen asleep if he thought he might be getting sex.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

pochael

Forgive me but I don't believe that you can love your spouse unconditionally. If you do, you sacrifice your own happiness.


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

jtk, I used to think like you did. But it was not until I knew what unconditional love really meant, that I knew I could. And to be very frank, I have a marriage now, that most people could not even dream of. And you will never be able to have that, and your spouse will never be able to give it because you have conditions. 
First, Love is a choice... The reality is this. True love is not determines by the one being loved but rather by the one choosing to love. The Bible refers to this kind of love by using the Greek word agape. It differs from the other types of love which are Phileo (friendship) and eros (sexual). Both of these have their place in marriage, but if your togetherness totally depends on having common interests or enjoying a healthy sex life, then the foundation of your relationship is unstable.
Unconditional is or Agape love is "in sickness and heath" love, "for richer or poorer" love, "for better or worse" love. It is the only kind of love that is TRUE LOVE.
You really need to get that book. It will teach you things that our parents could never teach. And it will change your life.


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

And I must say, how can you possible sacrifice your own happiness for someone you love? Did you know if there was ever a word that was the opposite of love it is selfishness?

Think about it.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

How can you be truly happy in your marriage, without conditions? Anyone who loves someone should want that love to be returned to them. If you love someone unconditionally you are saying that you are willing to accept any and all treatment that they dish out to you. Who can be truly happy giving unconditional love to someone that cannot or will not return it? What about your own happiness? Maybe it's me, but I could not be completely happy giving unconditional love to someone who does not return it. My kids are the only ones who get my unconditional love.

My husband and I have watched the movie based on that book, 'Fireproof'. We both clearly got the message but only one of us tries to remember(and live by)that message on a daily basis. It takes two to make a marriage work.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jtk said:


> I don't believe that you can love your spouse unconditionally. If you do, you sacrifice your own happiness.


 Interesting statement, I wonder how others feel about this comment/quote in thier own situations? 

Does your husband have any idea how you are hurting inside ?? Men are often clueless, and talking & sharing is usually NOT their best traits. But that does NOT mean they do not "feel" or not care when sometimes we feel this way. 

At least give him the opportunity to FIX what he can from his end - if he is willing, to help you feel more Loved, and Fullfilled in this marraige. Maybe you both have drastically different Love Languages >>>> Maybe he feels *most* loved when he is physically touched (sex) and maybe you feel *most* loved when he is giving you "Quality Time" (also Quality communcaiton /listening) - and you are both missing it -with each other , and need a little information to help you see HOW the other feels. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-languages-how-does-affect-your-marraige.html


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

So are you saying you have no happiness because your children are loved unconditionally? I am sure that they at times get on your nerves, upset you etc... But because of your unconditional love you are still there. You still love them no matter what. Because you choose to. 

I agree it takes 2, but it must start with one. Watch the movie again. Trust me, I was the husband that took advantage of the wife. I never really cared to heat what she had to say, as long as she was waiting on me hand and foot etc.. I was a flat out Turd... But if I did not love my wife unconditionally, if I had conditions as I did before, her affair would have been the end to us both. And my affair would have done the same. But, because we were blessed to read the book and do the 40 dares, we learned what we THOUGHT we knew. We both thought we knew what selfishness, kindness, unconditional, all was. BOY WERE WE IGNORANT. This book taught us the true meanings.... And it is awesome. In fact the intimacy is outstanding.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

SimplyArmorous

Thanks for your reply also. My husband should have EVERY idea how I'm hurting inside. I've screamed it, I've told him calmly, I've threatened to leave him if things didn't change...I feel like I have put so much effort into making this marriage work it's not funny. I initiate the conversations about 'us', I've searched the internet for information, read books, printed 'questionaires' for each of us to fill out to analyze our relationship, you name it.

You hit the nail on the head. His main complaint: Not enough sex. Ok, I totally accept that sex is a big part of marriage and important to a guy. BUT, it is not the foundation. My main complaint: No emotional support. So, we came to an agreement, I give him what he wants, he gives me what I want. That lasted for a very short time before he started slacking on his end. And now, I am at the point where I could not give him a second chance and try that route again. Why? Because to have sex with him would just be going through the motions and leave me feeling worse than what I already do. When everything else in the marriage is lacking, sex is just sex.


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## PeasNCarrots (Apr 5, 2010)

Jtk, In the first breath you say....
"I don't believe that you can love your spouse unconditionally. If you do, you sacrifice your own happiness."

In the next you say....
"My kids are the only ones who get my unconditional love."

Please tell me what the difference is? And if your H has to earn your love, do your kids also have to earn your love?

Love does not always equal happiness. UNCONDITIONAL love is just that, loving someone without EXPECTING anything in return.


You seem to be equating conditions & happiness with love and thats not how it works. 

From what I understand, and I havnt seen "Fireproof" yet, but from what I have read about it, it is used widely in couples counseling within the christian religion. So.... as a christian weren't you always told that god/ jesus loves us all UNCONDITIONALY? No matter our sins?

I'm not saying that you dont deserve happiness, we all do. You have valid feelings and have gotten some valid advice. I would look into counseling for yourself AND for the 2 of you. Sounds like maybe there are self-esteem issues for you. Do you have any friends near you? A way to at least get away from hubby and kids to get a chance to center yourself? Part of making a happy marriage is being happy yourself.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

Pochael

I appreciate that you are trying to help me, I really do. I hope that you are not taking my disagreeing with some of your points as rude. I am trying my best to figure out my situation and also to still hang on to some of the things that I feel so strongly about.

My children are loved unconditionally because they are my blood, a part of me, we have a bond that nothing can break. I don't believe you can have that with someone that is not your blood, it's just there, it exists.

The bond that you have with your spouse can be strong also, but it can be broken. Hurt will tear away at it until there's nothing left.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

PeasNCarrots

My husband nor my kids have to earn my love. My kids will always have it. My husband, on the other hand, has to return it. Are you suggesting that I have self esteem issues because I want what I give returned to me? Let's suppose that my husband was physically abusive to me. (This is not the case, just an example) Should I continue to stand by and love a man unconditionally who beats me or beats my children?


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

Jtk, No worries. I would never think you are being rude. At least you are searching for a solution. And to be honest no one can help unless you have feedback to what we say. 
Now. I am a husband. And trust me, I know what you are saying. In fact, if you and your husband went right this second and had sex, when he is done, he is done. In 5 minutes if you asked him for sex again, I am almost sure the answer is no. Because he can't. However, each and every thing can be drawn to selfishness. And please in no way am I saying you are the problem. We are all selfish, it has been ingrained since birth. 
Maybe you are not the one that needs to read the Love Dare... Maybe you should give it to him. If you think he will read it. 

I would never have changed my life, my love... If it were not for losing the most precious thing in my life at the time. Maybe, just maybe you should turn the tables on him. 

But when you talk about blood. That is just a saying. Again we choose to love. And I know it is something that most do not understand. But whatever you invest your time money and effort into is what your focus and interest will be. Your children are loved uncontionally it is because you chose to love them, and invest your time money and effort. Buy the dare and give it to him. see what happens. But until he can realize these things... it will never change.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

Pochael

One of the things that hurts the most is that he doesn't have the same desire that I did in saving the marriage. He knew things weren't right with us, had voiced to me that he was extremely unhappy with the lack of sex, yet didn't take the initiative to do anything or come up with ideas to fix it. To me, when I go to him and tell him I can't live like this anymore and our marriage is in danger, and he does nothing about it, that tells me he doesn't care. I understand that he doesn't have any answers, but he makes no attempt to find them either. Another thing that makes me doubt his love for me.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

Also, reading makes my husband fall asleep :/


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

Well. I hate to hear that. And I also understand. When I came to my senses, one day I read my wifes journals... If I would have had a gun, I would have shot myself. It crushed every molecule in me. I have come to realize that men are wired with a respect/pride module. It is just unfortunate that we never realize it until it is too late. Our wives are to complete us, we become one. But when selfishness gets the better of us, the pride/respect part is unaffected. And it equals an ass..... 

I used to think because I provided a beautiful home, money cars, etc.. I was a great husband. And she should wait on me hand and foot. But my goodness, I was a bonehead. I neglected the simplest things... Attention, intimacy, etc... The easiest things and I did not give them. Heck, I wish I would have known that 20 years ago when we first got married, my life would have been much better. Instead I killed myself to provide. Where I could have been middle class easily, and enjoyed.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

Well, i don't have journals but if I did I would have already said everything in them to my husband pertaining to our marriage and how I feel. My head is telling me that even though he says he loves me and doesn't want me to leave, that it must be out of convenience or some other reason because if he really loved me he would work harder at making our marriage better. That's why I think it would be better to end it and stop fooling myself. I'm so glad that you were able to turn your life and your marriage around.


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

Thanks... But it is hard to be glad at times, when I see some other bone head out there that just cannot grasp reality... There really has to be something that will change him. Or make him wake up. I really loved my wife, but I did not do it either. 
I know it sounds weird. The bad part is, I would have said back then that I would have changed if she was more sexual etc.. But that is just not true. So, I cannot sit her and tell you to give in and he will change. It won't, it will drive you further away. Maybe hold out on the sex. And tell him when he starts complaining, that you need to be intimate to do that. I dont know. I wish I knew the answer.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

Pochael

Can I ask, what was it about the book that changed the way you see your marriage? Was the book completely responsible for it or were there other factors? If men are wired to associate sex with love what can possibly happen to change that? Do you now hold as much importance in intimacy and connectedness and support as your wife or do you just show it because you know that it's important to your wife?


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

NO WAY.... I learned so many things. I can type for a year here. But let me give you a few examples. Here are some of the things I learned. But when I say learned. It teaches you in a way that is so obvious, and I was totally ignorant. 
Love is patient, love is Kind, Love is not selfish, love is thoughtful, love is not rude, love is not irritable... But this is the face of it. It was what each one of those defined them. It was in such a way that I felt like a first grader. This thing started out for my wife, but there was a time when there was no saving the marriage. She was already gone. And the response from others about the changes that were obvious in my everyday life really made me realize how much of a better person I was. How, I had no worries in life, no matter what they were. Again, I can go on forever about this. But at the end of each lesson (that takes no more than 10 minutes) there is a specific dare that has to be done that day... All I can say is that it works. But I will also tell you what hit me hard. Was leading your heart, not following it. The heart is out for the moment, it is the most decietful thing there is.... So when you follow your heart, you will never be happy but for the moment.


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## Lyn (Mar 10, 2010)

Unconditional love is what you give your children. For a spouse to have a blank check to act anyway they please and expect you to put up with it is exploitation.

There are lows even in the best of marriages. Discussing heavy issues at bedtime is a recipe for disaster since everyone is tired, sleepy, not at their best. Try discussing this in broad daylight when you both are well-rested.

Best,

Lyn


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

Lyn,

I totally agree about not discussing things at bedtime. The thing is though, this wasn't something that I was trying to initiate at bedtime. Something had happened concerning one of my kids which triggered an emotional upset for me. My husband should have been there for me.

I also agree about the unconditional love, it's not possible with your spouse.

Thanks for the reply.


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

Well, let me ask you this. Do you believe in God? Do you think he loves you unconditionally? Of course. Trust me, he does not love us because we are so lovable, but because he is so loving. 

jtk, you still love your husband based on what you are going through. You are still choosing to love him. And I agree with you, his way of love is not the same as yours. He needs to be taught how to express love. You are to complete each other. And until he can understand what goes and comes with that, then you are stuck. 

And as I said earlier. Maybe you should get the book for him.
But you should as well. I promise you will learn things that you think you know...


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

And I also want to point out. When you say you cannot love your husband unconditionally because you sacrifice your own happiness. 

I guess a better way for me to explain, you will never be happy with conditions. You will have such high expectations for your spouse and low standards for yourself... That is the core of selfishness.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

Pochael

We fall in love when certain conditions are met. When those conditions are no longer present or pain is inflicted, the feelings of love wane. How we feel about our spouses, is directly related to how we are treated. To me, loving my husband unconditionally would be setting low standards for myself. I do not think it selfish to expect love in return for the love that I give. It is human nature to want to feel loved. 

As for God, I really don't know if he exists or not. I do know that the Bible is full of contradictions. I also know that I am not here to determine whether or not he exists. I will make that determination if and when that time comes.

As far as getting the book for him, I may do that. I'm at the point now where I'm just trying to work through my feelings. I'm tired of being the only one to care and each time I go to him about fixing things I hate that I did it. If I see no action on his part then I wonder if it's even worth it. I need something from him to prove to me that he even cares anymore. I guess that's where your unconditional love comes in, the feelings that I just spoke about would not exist and therefore uncomplicate things, and of course, uncomplicated things are so much easier to deal with. But easier is not always the answer.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Well, I feel Pochael's wife is very BLESSED that he discovered "the Love Dare" & committed himself to it , that His eyes & heart has been awakened & He continues to walk in it. BUT if he didn't learn all of these valuable lessons & contunued to be oblvious to her pain, I would never call his wife "Selfish" if she bailed, or choose to leave the marraige. A human being can only take so much Rejection & heartache until common sense will push him/her to action for the betterment of their own existence, even GOD desires us to be Happy & fullfilled, especially IN Marraige. At least the God I believe in, DOES.

I also feel Love generally IS conditional in many ways, most unspoken, many not even considered. Not everyone puts HIGH unmeetable standards on their spouses, I disagree with this. Obviously we all make mistakes & miss it sometimes. And we should be there to forgive if the spouse is seeking this and wants the relationship to be restored. 

To ask if one believes in God and point to His Loving us "Uncondtionally", I also have my issues with this. As, on this earth, supposably We are taught HE loves us unconditionally, BUT we are required (under Christianity) to meet some very specific "conditions" ,in order to be "Saved" and NOT cast out by God into Hellfire. (Even being "Good" is not enough for Him! You *must *believe Jesus WAS born of a virgin, 1 very specific condition) 

Even God has condtions for a Healthy relationship, respect between Creator and creation, why would marraige be any different ?  

No matter what my children did to me personally, I would NEVER EVER send them to a burning Hell for Eternity, but we are taught that a "Loving" God who loves "Unconditionally" does this. It is scriptually not so: http://www.darrelldumas.com/misconception_of_unconditional_l.htm


Some here may use the term "conditions", others may use the term "Deal breakers". I do not see any spouse as Selfish if she is being mistreated, ignored, possibly married to an Alcoholic, so many examples. Why is the spouse who has been LAZY & uncaring to the needs of the other, also not equally as Selfish??

I still feel the Love Dare is definetly worth the effort, I agree it has saved countless marraiges, just look at the reviews! 

But to assume "everyone" will respond similarly is just not realistic. No more realistic than God's creation all loving & honoring HIS many decrees, even in the face of the Love & forgiveness available on this earth. Amazon.com: The Love Dare (9780805448856): Stephen Kendrick, Alex Kendrick: Books


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

The fight that we had before this one, I was done and making plans to leave. He came to me saying that he didn't want me and the kids to go. I told him fine, if saving this marriage is important to you, then you can agree to marriage counseling AND make all of the arrangements to get it set up. (I guess in my eyes him doing this would prove to me that he cared 1. Because I know that its hard for a guy to talk about his feelings 2. To admit defeat and ask for help. 3. Because most of the things in our marriage have been left to ME to figure out and handle and get the ball rolling on.) Well, it ended up that I got the counseling set up myself because he came to me with so many questions about it that I just took over. (I shouldn't have done that) We went to one session and then the office closed for a week because of a holiday. We were supposed to set up another appointment when they opened back up. I purposely didn't make a move this time to see if he cared enough to take the initiative and make the call to set up another appointment. He did not, so we haven't been back.


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## PeasNCarrots (Apr 5, 2010)

Jtk.

In no way did I mean to offend you. I to have alot of the same issues with my SO. Other than the sex thing... I cant seem to get any.

My point in the whole thing is that loving someone unconditionaly means loving them in spite of their shortcomings.

Have you ever heard someone say you can love someone but you dont have to like them? And yes, even your children. 

Example: I have a son who is 20 and left my home because I refused to let him be irresponsible, he wants to remain 12 years old and let everyone do for him, and when forced to behave as an adult, goes to the next person who is willing to "baby" him. I love my son with everything I am, would walk to the ends of the world for him, literally kill for him. BUT I dont like the person he is becoming. That doesnt mean I dont love him.

Most of what I said in my previous post was geared more to giving you something to think about. Right now you have 2 issues, do you love your H & do you want to work on the marriage or leave. Reslove the one ( weather or not you love your H) and then decide on the other. You can love your H and it still might be in your best interest to leave and divorce.

Please, Please dont think I was judging you, your H, or your children because that was the furthest thing from my mind... 

BTW.... Pochael... I would love to pick your brains sometime!!!! lol I think every woman here would!!!


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

PeasNCarrots

When I posted here I was prepared to consider things that I may not agree with or hadn't thought of and also to look at other points of view as well as defend my own beliefs. I was just curious as to why you mentioned self esteem problems.

I understand the whole 'loving someone but not liking them' and yes, I have experienced this with my children. You can love someone in spite of their shortcomings but the love between you and your child and the love between you and your spouse are very different. The bond between a mother and child is powerful, unique and unconditional and there will never be another relationship that is equal to it. The love between you and your spouse can be powerful also but in a different way and to me, has conditions. That is the difference.


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## Lyn (Mar 10, 2010)

If it's something fresh and there is emotional distress, then, certainly, it has to be addressed when it's happening. In general, though, we have found that not discussing issues, especially regarding the kids, when we are tired at the end of the day has helped the way we communicate, tremendously.

Best, 

Lyn


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## PeasNCarrots (Apr 5, 2010)

Jtk,

I guess it was the "feel" I got from your post and maybe "self-esteem" was the wrong word.

It seemed as if you were questioning your own thoughts and feelings.

And probably, if I had waited to post and seen more of your thought process I wouldnt have even gone there! lol

My bad.....


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

PeasNCarrots,

No hard feelings. I AM questioning my thoughts and feelings to an extent. I am questioning if I am expecting more out of my spouse and more out of the marriage than what is reasonable. When I'm thinking rationally, I don't think that I am. When I am so confused that my thoughts are all scattered then I begin to wonder. Right now I don't think my expectations are too high, what I DO wonder is if I would find a man who is capable of living up to those standards. Do I search for that or 'settle' and learn to be happy that even though things aren't right, they could be worse. I'm 37 years old and not getting any younger.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

This book sounds perfect for your situation , I never read this but another by the same author, I found it very very good. They have a used one on here for 66 cents plus 3.99 shipping, go for it! 


Amazon.com: Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay: A Step-by-Step Guide to Help You Decide Whether to Stay In or Get Out of Your Relationship (9780452275355): Mira Kirshenbaum: Books


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

I appreciate your recommendation SA and I may look into that eventually. Right now I don't have the means to order online though.


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## PeasNCarrots (Apr 5, 2010)

HHmmmmm its like reading my own mind here... lol

At almost 42 I have a couple of years on you. Believe it or not in my first marriage I felt EXACTLY like you. I had the same questions about my feelings and expectations. Felt like if my H loved me he would spend more time with me, the kids, do important chores I asked of him, etc. Figured if he didnt then there HAD to be somebody out there that did want that life with me, that would love me that much, etc. So I told him I wanted a divorce, not that I didnt love him because I did, but I wanted happiness.....guess what... its not that easy to find someone that wants and thinks like you do. Men are just not the same animal that women are. Rarely do you find a man that thinks like we do. So then what? You settle for someone that MAY have a little more emotionally in common with you. Do you then wonder if you could have saved your marriage? 

I am now in a relationship that I am not happy with, the forever quest to find the man that wants the same thing. I have realized that Im not going to find that perfect man, but that maybe with some work I can make a better relationship and become happy. Prince charming wont just fall into your lap.... theres a reason they call them "fairy tales". Sometimes you have to work REALLY hard to get what you want and sometimes your desires change.

I dont think deciding to stick it out and trying to salvage what you have is setteling. Its being determined to try as hard as you can to make the best relationship you can. 

I know the feeling of "letting grass grow under your feet" but people in their 80's find love...... until you are dead its never too late.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

PeasNCarrots said:


> I am now in a relationship that I am not happy with, the forever quest to find the man that wants the same thing. I have realized that Im not going to find that perfect man, but that maybe with some work I can make a better relationship and become happy.



I will have to do a lot of soul searching in order to determine this. Will I be able to place less importance on NEEDING my husband to show me compassion, understanding and support? Will I be able to work through the feelings of resentment that have built up and actually enjoy a sex life with someone who leaves me feeling so empty, knowing that as long as he is getting sex he is fulfilled? I don't know. I kind of have an all or nothing kind of attitude in that I wonder if I would be better off single. At least I would not be giving all of myself to someone who can't return it. No relationship = No expectations. No expectations = no disappointment. It's a lot to think about.


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

jtk, I have to disagree with this statement... "We fall in love when certain conditions are met." We do not "fall in love per-say. We choose to love. That choice may be made based on certain decisions. Also, as for the Bible being full of contradictions, I have read it, I study it. And I have not found any. In fact the only people that say that are ones who do not read it at all, or are only taking from it what they believe works best for them. 

But I am here to help you where I can. So, this discussion can continue another time if you would like.

With all that said. I can completly understand where you are. I have seen it first hand with my wife, and with myself. You husband, seems has become completely dependent on you for many things. And you supply him with every need he has. And there are times that in your mind it is so easy to just show you love but those thoughts are simple to you. Maybe not to him. There has to be something that would be a wake up call to him. That will awake the emotions that once existed. Now, the Dare was a God send to me, because it taught me certain things I just took for granted. It opened my eyes to what certain things truly mean. For example, in my past, I thought I was one of the kindest people there was. But I did come to learn a whole bunch of my kindness was selfish (what an eye opener). I used to think to show love, it was the big things. But now I have learned that is not the case. Not at all. Just doing things like sitting in the hot tub with her. Sitting out her coffee cup in the morning before I leave, just listening to her when she speaks, And I can go on and on. In fact, I have not bought a piece of jewlery for her for a looong time now which was my normal love offering, and replaced that with the little things. And it has made the world of difference. Among other things.. But I do have to tell you. The love dare (even available at walmart) is scripture based. 

Simply- My love is unconditional. Now, if she went and had another affair, I probably would not be here anymore, but that does not mean I do not love her. I just do not want to be walked on... LOL. I also believe that jtk's love is stronger than she thinks. SHe is not choosing not to love him, she is fighting if she wants to stay. Which means there is love. And if she left, I am sure she would still love him, but not want to be with him. We are born with needed to be known and loved. But our own selfishness does come into it. We think they should love us the way we want to be loved. How do we know what they are taught about love? I mean, I got married when I was 18 and she was 16. And I thought I loved her but she disagreed. But because I love her unconditionally, I took notice of things. I did not sacrifice happiness to show her things she needed. But, if I love her. Then I should do things that make her feel that way. But here is the funny part. I love it more than she does, because I see what it does to her. And yes the sex is better. So in my own selfish way, I actually did it for myself. LOL. 

And anytime anyone wants to pick my brain go for it. 

jtk, again this is your post. the dare gave me lessons to what I took for granted.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

Pochael

I totally agree that my husband needs a wake up call. I just don't think that anything will wake him up. I would have thought that watching 'Fireproof' would be the wake up call. The husband in that movie very unselfishly put his own needs aside and focused all of his energy on giving his wife what she needed. If my husband were to do that on his own it could save our marriage. How can he not know this after watching the movie and seeing the outcome. That makes me wonder if getting the book would even be benefit us. 

He is so focused on the sex. I don't have the highest sex drive and what I do have is heavily affected by stress, etc but it is severely affected by the way I am treated. I try to understand how important it is to a man but then when I think about what a high priority is placed on it by men, it sickens me. Love is so much more than sex and I am the only one in the relationship that sees this. Or maybe he did get the message from the movie and is just too selfish and obsessed with sex to put it aside for the moment and focus on the foundation of our marriage. Once the resentment is healed then the only thing left in the way of the sex is the 
stress, which would be alot easier to work through than the resentment and I would then become the one that is willing to concentrate on his needs.

Maybe he's just not getting the wake up call because he doesn't love me anymore..


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

pochael said:


> Also, as for the Bible being full of contradictions, I have read it, I study it. And I have not found any. In fact the only people that say that are ones who do not read it at all, or are only taking from it what they believe works best for them.


 To Pochael: 

I have read it too, more than I care to admit, I used to collect Bibles & give countless Life Application Bibles as Gifts. I have struggled with MANY contradictions over the years. It is quite obvious the Bible is NOT clear on many many issues (even scriptures supporting Original sin can be confused with other scriptures claiming we were indeed born "innocent", NOT in sin). What gives? - WHO decides which to take literally and which to take figuratively, or was it only meant to be a Parable for learning. 

Thou shalt not Kill -used to be thou shalt not Murder (they can have different meanings entirely). It clearly tells us in Ecc "there is a Time to Kill". Man replaced Murder with KILL & this is one of the commanments! No wonder Christians are so DIVIDED on the death penalty, War, etc. Imagine how much else has been changed/lost over the years! Do we/you really claim to know? Generally, we just (blindly) trust what we have been taught. 

Umteem Denominations (Wikapedia claims 38,000, other sites up to 33,000!), Calvanism, Catholics, Protestants, even Jews & Christians, all reading nearly the SAME TEXT but such vastly different conclusions. Jew & Christians interpret Genesis completely different, how are you/we/anyone to know for a FACT which is correct? 

Every Christian "cherry picks" the Bible to some degree, we generally see what we want to see. 

If you indeed have & possess "unconditional" love, you are MORE loving than your own Creator, because according to the Scriptures, He does NOT have that for mankind. Those who even suggest this are seeing what they "want " to see or have been taught Biblically (cherry picking again), and completely missing (sometimes ignorning) the contradictory scriptures that say otherwise. 

Sorry to get off the beaten track here , I just wanted to point out that I also have read & studied the Bible & have a different "take" on what IT says.


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

jtk- I would disagree that he does not love you. I am sure he does. However, as people would say he has an odd way of showing it. 
Just curious, have you tried to go and "date" again? I Know a number of marriages stop dating and the person you fell in love with you were dating. Try it. And when it comes to sex. You need to let him know that you usually serve him as a wife even when you do not want to. And until you feel intimate you are not going to give into it anymore. I do not believe that is using sex, because you are trying to make things better. 

Simply, I would love to get into this with you. I love the challenge. However, this is not the place for it. And I have to say. God does love unconditionally. But he cannot change your will. And when your will is not to believe what he gave us, then you have a whole new outlook. But again, please if you want to continue this specific discussion, let me know but lets respect jtk space.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

Pochael

My husband and I have very seldom gone out. The reason for this is because of the children. I never really had someone to watch them while we went out. Also, my oldest has had issues for a long time that have prevented me from leaving him with someone, even for a couple of hours. My son's issues have put a huge strain on the marriage also. Just another reason that i feel unity and communication is so important to have in our marriage, because we do have a lot of struggles that other couples may not also face, or face to the same extent.


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

Maybe the investment should be as an entire family then... You hubby and kids. 

I don't care what anyone says. Whatever you invest your time money and energy into is where you interest will be... So, if you can get him to do something with you guys, maybe that will start to open his eyes.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

He usually does do things with us, we spend quality time together as a family, yet our marriage is still rocky in other areas. So, I'm not sure how getting him to do something with us will help.


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

Remember, what ever you invest your time money and effort is what will get your attention. 

So I guess what I am saying is, that maybe you need to find activities that allow the children to do things that also give you and him some time...

For example, my wife and I take the kids fishing. While they fish we keep an eye on them, but we sit there and talk etc..

Another thing we do is the kids ride bikes and we walk. The intent is really exercise but it is great time for her and I. 

So we look for activities that involve the kids but also allow us some time. 

Also, now that the weather is getting good. We will start doing the drive-in as well. Which is always great. The kids always want to be outside the vehicle on a blanket or chairs and we just stay in the car.

Anyway, you need to be creative in coming up with activities. Make them look as just for the kids, but in your own way it is showing him without being obvious... LOL.


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## Lyn (Mar 10, 2010)

Mini-golf and pizza are my recommendations.

Lyn


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## seahorse (Apr 10, 2010)

@jtk

To suggest your legitimate needs can be minimized or eliminated through the power of positive thinking, by doing nice things for him, or by having a date night once in a while is not only laughable, it is downright dangerous and will lead you deeper into isolation, frustration, and despair. I applaud you for showing boldness on this forum. I would encourage you to continue demonstrating the same level of boldness with him. So at least be encouraged that you have supporters here on this forum who sympathize with your plight.

That said, some thoughts:

1. For now, keep viewing him as PARTNER and not ADVERSARY. You must do this or dialogue is not possible.
2. Choose to forgive him but continue to insist [with kindness] upon your legitimate needs. Do not back down.
3. Ask him if he has unmet needs he hasn't expressed. If yes, get him to open up about what they are. Dig a little. 
4. Get him to be very honest about attraction. Is he feeling it, and if not, why not?
5. If hubby still refuses to communicate but continues to expect sex on demand, I would either cut off the sex or seek a temporary separation by moving out for a while.

You will learn a lot about your husband's mind once he is under some real pressure. If he doesn't feel pressure after all of this [above], then he's already left you. 


Good luck.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

seahorse said:


> @jtk
> 
> To suggest your legitimate needs can be minimized or eliminated through the power of positive thinking, by doing nice things for him, or by having a date night once in a while is not only laughable, it is downright dangerous and will lead you deeper into isolation, frustration, and despair. I applaud you for showing boldness on this forum. I would encourage you to continue demonstrating the same level of boldness with him. So at least be encouraged that you have supporters here on this forum who sympathize with your plight.
> 
> ...


Thanks Seahorse, it's good to know that someone can get a good feel about where I'm coming from and empathize. 

You brought up some good suggestions that will definitely be considered.


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## Lyn (Mar 10, 2010)

jtk,

I'd like to clarify and say that first of all, I wholeheartedly agree with Seahorse and my remark about pizza and mini-golf was intended only as a suggestion for a family activity, not the answer to your very serious issues.

I understand the conflict with the "positive thinking" scenario, having become a victim of it, myself, back in the 80s. There is nothing more empowering than facing reality, rolling up the sleeves and dealing with it. Denial keeps us passive in situations where we should not be.

You can't live a marriage out through your children/family. It's not healthy for them, let alone yourself.

Best,

Lyn


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

Lyn,

I understand and your suggestions are appreciated. In actuality, what pochael suggested might not be the answer, but it is a good tip when finding the time to talk alone has been a big issue.


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

jtk,

I to would like to clarify... I still stand by my words. 

as seahorse said
1. For now, keep viewing him as PARTNER and not ADVERSARY. You must do this or dialogue is not possible. 
I have said this in a number of different ways through this post.
2. Choose to forgive him but continue to insist [with kindness] upon your legitimate needs. Do not back down. .
As I put it- You need to let him know that you usually serve him as a wife even when you do not want to. And until you feel intimate you are not going to give into it anymore. I do not believe that is using sex, because you are trying to make things better. 

3. Ask him if he has unmet needs he hasn't expressed. If yes, get him to open up about what they are. Dig a little.
4. Get him to be very honest about attraction. Is he feeling it, and if not, why not?
5. If hubby still refuses to communicate but continues to expect sex on demand, I would either cut off the sex or seek a temporary separation by moving out for a while.
And again my point. - You need to let him know that you usually serve him as a wife even when you do not want to. And until you feel intimate you are not going to give into it anymore. I do not believe that is using sex, because you are trying to make things better. 

These are some good ideas. But I have a question on your response... Are you looking for input, or just someone to agree and justify what you have already decided? And please do not misunderstand. But it seems that the only real response you have had with anyone is the person that justifies your own thoughts. 

Because in my suggestion, maybe your husband is as confused as you are. And please, do not for one second think I do not empathize, because if I didn't I would not be commenting.


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

I just seen your latest post. Of course after my post. I am not in anyway suggesting this is the solution. I just believe before any drastic moves such as seperation etc.. you try a few things that are door openers. Because it would be a horrible thing if a decision was made that was harsh and then you start to question yourself.

I hope I am saying that right.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

pochael said:


> These are some good ideas. But I have a question on your response... Are you looking for input, or just someone to agree and justify what you have already decided? And please do not misunderstand. But it seems that the only real response you have had with anyone is the person that justifies your own thoughts.


I am looking for answers, I am looking for understanding and I am looking for clarity. I don't feel that I have only responded to those who justify my own thoughts. I came upon this board about 3 days ago and started reading. I then decided to start my own thread. I have since been following this thread along with a few others (and responding to those who respond to me) and have been reading everything I can. I have found there are different opinions and I have been trying to look at all the different points of view. I have refrained from commenting on other's threads as I don't feel comfortable giving advice when my own world is so screwed up right now. I've been given some great advice and have not made a concrete decision as of yet. I tend to analyze everything (maybe this is one of my faults) and a lack of response doesn't mean that I'm not thinking about all of it.


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

This is tough situation to be in. I just thank God, he gave me the "wake up" call. I hope the same happens with your husband. 

You know, there is something funny that my wife and I did. And her expectations were way off. We both wrote what our version of the most perfect day was. It had to include everything in our lives. For example, each other, kids etc... Maybe you should write what yours is and have him do the same. Or just ask him to do it. But I will tell you some people are more open to writing but not face to face.... But you do have to at least get something out of him.... Just how is it best to be done.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

Just a quick update. I made the decision to give my marriage another chance. Broke the silent treatment that I was giving to H and told him I am willing to work on his needs if he is willing to work on mine. 

We talked and he was very receptive. Told me he wasn't going anywhere and was in it for the long haul. We do have a lot of issues to work out and finding the time around a busy life will be a challenge, I do know that. 

But hopefully, things can start progressing in the right direction. 

Thanks to everyone's great advice and I'm sure alot of it will be worked into the plan to get saving this marriage off to a good start.


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

That is awesome... In my past experience, human nature is to do something for a week or 2 and then it fades. 

You will need some assistance and direction. As I mentioned before the book called the Love Dare is a great step by step with specific things that need to be done each day. 

But, even if you do not look at that. Please find something to give you direction.

Good Luck and God Bless.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jtk said:


> Broke the silent treatment that I was giving to H and told him I am willing to work on his needs if he is willing to work on mine.


 Always - Always - Always & Forever commit yourself & your husband to do the same -- no matter what happens down the road, no matter the issue, no matter the hurt, don't let any silent treatments go beyond a few hours, at the longest, over night. 

Good for you! See he was receptive! So often when we are NOT talking -and for days, we imagine all kinds of bad things from our spouse, things are blown up horendously in our minds, & this keeps moving us further & further away. 

But deep down, they WANT the same as we do, just too darn stubborn sometimes to "Break the silent treatment". It is as simple as that -for some. We all want the other to cave first, maybe it makes us feel "more loved" but as you can see, He Loves you very very much & is committed to the marraige!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jtk said:


> Lyn,
> 
> I totally agree about not discussing things at bedtime. The thing is though, this wasn't something that I was trying to initiate at bedtime. Something had happened concerning one of my kids which triggered an emotional upset for me. My husband should have been there for me.
> 
> ...


 The first few years of my marriage, I would cry when I felt slighted by my husband. At first, it upset him and he tried to comfort me. After a few years, he realized that I did it (intentionally or not) as a 'trick' to get him to prove love to me. So he quit responding. He stopped caring if I cried because it made him feel manipulated.

Think about it.

Your husband no longer responds because, when he sees you, he sees a nag, a mother, a disappointed woman who does not admire him. Why should he even bother?

You two are at opposite corners in the boxing ring. 

Unless you change the way you interact, it will never improve.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jtk said:


> Pochael
> 
> My husband and I have very seldom gone out. The reason for this is because of the children. I never really had someone to watch them while we went out. Also, my oldest has had issues for a long time that have prevented me from leaving him with someone, even for a couple of hours. My son's issues have put a huge strain on the marriage also. Just another reason that i feel unity and communication is so important to have in our marriage, because we do have a lot of struggles that other couples may not also face, or face to the same extent.


 Another reason he has no desire to meet you halfway. 

HIS life ended when you had kids. His life as your husband. Now, he is just some guy who works to pay for you and the kids. Whatever goals HE had in life are now out the window, because your whole life revolves around the kids. Because you make no effort (I assume) to be creative and FIND alternatives to someone caring for your kids so you and your husband can have quality time together.

He gets that. He is now #4 (or whatever number is right after you and the kids). So he has given up.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Read your last update. That's good. As I suspected, he just feels left out. Many men do, especially if you have a special needs child.

What to do?

Go to marriagebuilders.com and print out two copies of the Love Buster questionnaire. Both of you fill it out. Share. Then learn what YOU do that he doesn't like, and STOP doing it! All of it! 

Him too.

Both of you should spend a good two months concentrating on NOT LBing each other, so as to change your habits.

Once you do that, go back to marriagebuilders and print out two copies of the Emotional Needs questionnaire, fill it out, and share. Then start working to meet your spouse's top 5 ENs. Whatever they are. Whether you agree with them or not. They are HIS ENs, not yours. He has the right to have whatever ENs he has (within reason of course) - YOUR job, as his spouse, is to be the ONE and ONLY person meeting those needs.

Note: Do NOT do this part before you have eliminated the LBs. Pointless.

Finally, FIND A WAY to start spending time together without the kids. You HAVE to, or you will have no marriage. And once the kids are gone, you will be total strangers, and you'll divorce anyway. You should be spending at least 10 hours a week together without the kids. Find a way.

I promise you, if both of you are sincere on fixing your marriage, taking these three steps will save and dramatically improve your marriage.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> Another reason he has no desire to meet you halfway.
> 
> HIS life ended when you had kids. His life as your husband. Now, he is just some guy who works to pay for you and the kids. Whatever goals HE had in life are now out the window, because your whole life revolves around the kids. Because you make no effort (I assume) to be creative and FIND alternatives to someone caring for your kids so you and your husband can have quality time together.
> 
> He gets that. He is now #4 (or whatever number is right after you and the kids). So he has given up.


You know, the other night when H and I talked I specifically asked him to tell me all of the ways he felt unfulfilled by me and he just said that the lack of sex was the only thing, that I was a perfect wife in every other way. 

But I do believe that he may feel like my life revolves around the kids because he has voiced on occasion that we don't ever get the chance to go out by ourselves. 

Then again, I have pounded into his head that he assumed the role of step-dad when he married me and I told him that if he didn't want to assume that role then he needed to let me know and we should call it quits.

Maybe he doesn't feel comfortable enough to tell me that he feels like the kids always come first. Or maybe it just doesn't bother him enough to consider it a problem.

Either way, I know that's a big stress on our marriage. As far as finding alternatives for someone to watch the kids, there are a couple of reasons for this: I simply cannot think of any alternatives and I believe if this really was a big issue for him, he would offer suggestions or help me think of some alternatives. 
Granted, he has thrown a few ideas out there, but non of them have been feasible and that's as far as it got. The closest we get to any alone time is when the kids go to bed and even that is interrupted because my oldest is up and down alot of the time.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You are making a LOT of assumptions for HIM. 

That's one of the worst things you can do, because you choose actions based on assumptions, and he knows you do, and so he shuts down. 

He TOLD you your life revolves around the kids. If he says that out loud, you can darn well bet it is a BIG issue for him. But he has shut down because he told you and you didn't change anything.
You say he has made suggestions, and none of them have been acceptable or doable for you. So you are teaching him that you want what YOU want. Again, he shuts down.

A note about the lack of sex: when one of your top 5 Emotional Needs isn't getting met, you forget about EVERYTHING ELSE. That becomes the ONLY thing you care about. So you can bet there are a lot of other things he is unhappy about, but until you meet this #1 EN, he won't even consider talking about anything else.

That's like for me. My #1 EN is organization of my house. That's because my husband shoves papers, electronics and a million other things he never deals with into every nook and cranny of the house. Drawers and drawers and drawers full. Boxes and boxes full. A 3-car garage we can barely walk in, because the rest if FULL of his crap.

So, nothing else matters to me but getting the house under control. For our 30th anniversary a couple weeks ago, he said 'tell me what you want and we'll go buy it.' I said, 'you KNOW that the only thing I want is to get the house under control.' He said ok. He hasn't picked up a single piece of paper. So I hate him for it. 

Your husband is likely feeling the exact same way.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> You say he has made suggestions, and none of them have been acceptable or doable for you. So you are teaching him that you want what YOU want. Again, he shuts down.


I have responsibilities to my children also. We should both WANT what's best for them. As parents. Somebody has to be the objectionable one as to what's doable. My son's therapist considered doable to be leave my child screaming and crying outside of my LOCKED bedroom door at night. No way. I'm all for something reasonable. I'm willing to compromise. But as parents we have to make some sacrifices for our kids.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

How old is this child who is screaming and crying outside a locked bedroom door? And, why does it bother you? Are you uncomfortable with teaching the child independence at night and boundaries from mom and dad's bedroom? I have a 9 year old who is different... definitely marches to the beat of his own drummer and that is what is so special about him (pediatrician wanted him tested at age 4 but his dad refused). His confidence has soared with enforced boundaries at my house with me and his stepfather (while at dads house, dad still stays by his side until he is all the way asleep). He craves and thrives with the structure and expectations that his stepdad and I have here. 

I think the priority should be the parental unit, not the children. I believe that is what the therapist was trying to suggest. Perhaps your husband feels this way as well and is hurt that you dont. 

You can want what is best for your kids, but you cant kill your marriage in the process... what does that teach the kids?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't know you or your son's issues, but I will tell you that, in most cases, letting a child scream outside a locked bedroom is not going to permanently harm the child. In fact, giving in to a child and perpetuating its throwing tantrums, barring medical reasons, can in fact harm the child.

Like I said, I don't know your son's medical issues, but in typical households, the parents will teach the child that screaming and crying outside your room won't get you anything but tired.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

toolate said:


> How old is this child who is screaming and crying outside a locked bedroom door? And, why does it bother you? Are you uncomfortable with teaching the child independence at night and boundaries from mom and dad's bedroom?


My son was probably about 7 at the time. He has ADHD and anxiety and suffers from panic attacks. 

Funny, at the next session, I voiced to the therapist how much I didn't like her suggestion of locking my bedroom door and basically ignoring my child. She then said that she didn't agree with that approach either and that she never told me to do that. 

Well, she did tell me that, my husband was witness. As a matter of fact, my H didn't agree with that approach either.

During the course of therapy, the therapist presented us with several approaches to try in dealing with my son. Alot of the times it involved trips to his room to check on and reassure him in intervals of about 2 mins. apart. 

THAT in itself caused problems in our marriage. No time to ourselves, being tired and frustrated, etc. And as much as my H may have felt like the kids came first, I felt the same way also. My son WAS high maintenance, dealing with him was VERY stressful and time consuming which took away from us but what can you do? 

If I had a child with a physical handicap, would I be required to slack on his needs and put my marriage before that? No, sometimes you have to spread yourself a little thin in order to be everything that you need to be for everyone. 

And now I am seeing all too often, parents who are so self-absorbed and worried about their own happiness, that their kids are left to fend for themselves and it turns into a sad situation. There can be a happy medium. But that's a whole different topic.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

But you don't HAVE a happy medium. You have an UNHAPPY husband who will eventually - probably sooner rather than later - either leave you or start cheating on you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No one is telling you to ignore or abandon your son. Rather, to educate yourself on options that can get you ALL what you need. There's a ton of information available to you. Instead, you keep to what makes you feel good and feel like a good mother - constant reassurance for your son, at the expense of your husband.

I'm the first person to ALWAYS tell people that the child comes first. Just read my posts. I've told people to divorce because the spouse is unwilling to share. But it looks more like YOU are unwilling to share.

You have options, there are plenty of ways to work on your son's anxiety issues that don't require you spending every.single.night catering to him until he falls asleep.

You are not helping him by creating this expectation in your 7, 8, 9 year old that he has to have his mother's constant attention to feel safe. He's practically in junior high, for heaven's sake.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> No one is telling you to ignore or abandon your son. Rather, to educate yourself on options that can get you ALL what you need. There's a ton of information available to you. Instead, you keep to what makes you feel good and feel like a good mother - constant reassurance for your son, at the expense of your husband.
> 
> I'm the first person to ALWAYS tell people that the child comes first. Just read my posts. I've told people to divorce because the spouse is unwilling to share. But it looks more like YOU are unwilling to share.
> 
> ...


As a matter of fact, he IS in jr. high. He's almost 13 now.

From the time that my son was first diagnosed, I've done nothing but educate myself. 

I was also having a hard time dealing with the fact that he even had these disorders. All the while dealing with it on my own because my husband wasn't the greatest support system.

Did he once take it upon himself to find out all he could about what my son was going through and ways to handle it? No. 

Our lives changed at that moment. There was alot that needed to be done and I was the only one doing it. So, yeah I kind of resented the fact that my husband felt slighted by the things that were happening and he tried to throw out ideas without even educating HIMSELF, so that he could be more able to make EDUCATED decisions. 

Marriage is supposed to be a unity, a partnership, a commitment - not expecting me to handle everything and then sit back and complain when it's not to your liking. 

Or trying to voice to someone something, that you consider to be a good approach when you haven't even taken the necessary time to gain a decent understanding of the situation, but whatever.

I've found that when it comes to children and the way they should be raised, someone is always going to judge you and tell you what you're doing wrong and how their way is so much better. And there are a million different views on parenting, who's to say who's right and who's wrong.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So...he is 12 and you still have to put him to sleep every night?


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> So...he is 12 and you still have to put him to sleep every night?



Your idea of 'help' leaves alot to be desired.

I don't appreciate your condescending and sarcastic attitude and I am done with this conversation.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm not being condescending. It is your own sense of guilt and acknowledgment that others do not share your parenting view that makes you feel attacked. I'm trying to understand your situation. 

If you are truly having to put a 12 year old to sleep at night - and you tell us that your husband has withdrawn from you - it is entirely likely that you have options to change your family dynamics that you have not explored - or will not.

You tell us that your husband admits he feels left out. Yet you do not explore how to stop that from happening. Because it would require you to change how you parent.

No one is saying you are a bad mother. I, personally, am asking you to take a hard look at your situation and ask yourself honestly what the true payoff is for what you are doing.

Many times, women will develop patterns or ways of life that 'feed' them emotionally. Oftentimes, that involves convincing themselves that they HAVE to ignore their husband in order to 'protect' their child. In reality, there ARE other options that can allow you to have both.

I'm not trying to criticize you. I'm trying to warn you.

If you don't listen to your husband, and at least honestly ask yourself if you COULD change your current pattern regarding your children vs. husband mix, you will very likely _lose your husband._

And IMO, if a 12 year old boy is that attached to his mother and incapacitated as to everyday operations, he is either (1) needing other medical attention or diagnosis or (2) that way because his mother has grown attached to this particular pattern and is perpetuating it.

JMHO


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## lola_b (Aug 28, 2009)

I think as women, we tend to expect certain things from our husbands (without telling them what we want) and when we don't get it...we get mad, angry, upset, etc. and it's not really fair. I think a lot of men have a hard time with expressing their feelings. I think there needs to be a lot of communication between the two of you and to accept what you say to each other without over reacting and try to explain to each other how you think it will improve things. I don't have any kids, but I'm pretty sure it's tough to spend equal amounts of time with your husband and kids equally. I would suggest really trying to get out for a date night a couple of times a month or even go out for a walk with the family, but walk beside your husband and walk hand in hand, or maybe even watch a movie as a family, but sit beside your husband and cuddle up. Sometimes, we have to give others what we want ourselves in order for them to see what we want. 

I think you should pick up The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands and the Proper Care and Feeding of Marriage, both by Dr. Laura Schlessinger.


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## Advocado (Feb 24, 2010)

jtk - I really do feel for you as there have been many times I've read your posts and wondered if we were married to the same man! I too want my husband to pick up on my signals, learn from past mistakes and to want to listen, rather than feel obliged. However, like Pochael I am glad to hear you are both willing to give the marriage another go, and assuming you manage to stay on track do post as to how you kept up the momentum as it's so easy to fall back into old habits and end up back at square one. 

I do not have a special needs child but am wondering if there is anyone who you can "train up" to become a regular sitter for your son. Is there perhaps a teacher/helper/adult he spends time with at school for example who might be willing to earn some extra cash by coming over to the house and babysitting your son whilst you and/or your husband are on hand. Stage two, you and/or your husband are still in the house but out of your son's sight/ear shot. You could maybe start with just short periods of just 10 minutes and gradually let it go on for longer. Maybe you and your husband could progress to have a 1 or 2 hour date in your own bedroom without fear of interruption! If this goes well, the aim is for you to gradually get to the point where you and your husband are out of the house for a short time and to build up the lenght of time in small steps. 

If there's no one you know who might fit this role, i believe there are respite care organisations who should be able to help, having staff experienced in handling children with your son's health issues. Maybe you could make some enquiries. 

Obviously something like this will take time - firstly your son needs to get accustomed and comfortable to having someone else in the home fulfilling his needs, and you yourself will need time to adjust and feel confident that he'll be well taken care of. Over time, it could result in both your son and youself feeling more independent which would be a good thing.

Additionally, I think it important that aside from getting time apart from your children to spend quality time with your husband, you should also seek to gain some "me" time on your own/pamper yourself as a priority.


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## jtk (Apr 24, 2010)

Advocado said:


> jtk - I really do feel for you as there have been many times I've read your posts and wondered if we were married to the same man! I too want my husband to pick up on my signals, learn from past mistakes and to want to listen, rather than feel obliged. However, like Pochael I am glad to hear you are both willing to give the marriage another go, and assuming you manage to stay on track do post as to how you kept up the momentum as it's so easy to fall back into old habits and end up back at square one.


It's easy alright, and it's already happened. Not 6 days into it and already back to square one. Some may think 6 days is not long enough to give it but in my defense, this 'starting fresh' processes has been re-starting again and again and again, with the same outcome.

I appreciate your understanding and help, but I don't think our marriage is going to work out. At this point, I've done everything I can think of to get back on track and it's not happening. I am lacking another person in the relationship that is willing to apply enough effort. 

I sincerely hope that you and your H can work things out.


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## McGraw (Mar 2, 2009)

Its amazing that though through this forum we are trying to help one another, and we are learning at the same time---the suggestion for reading the book 'the love dare' is what I am referring to---wow, thanks for mentioning it, pochael...it can definitely help us all. And for jtk, good luck to you, I know how hard it can be, believe it. I've been there. Counseling helped me to see and understand after all the crying, begging, cursing, and praying didn't work. I wish you the best......


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