# Senior sex



## tx_bluesfan (Jun 28, 2013)

So I am 63 and DW IS 69. She loves me dearly but sex is just not important to her. She really has no need for my touch nor does she understand my need for her touch. 

She is up for a quickie about once a week but only for my benefit. This helps with my physical needs but does nothing for my need to feel wanted, needed, or desired. 

I know that this is the best she is capable of and it will not change but these quickies when she just lays there in a pitch black room, flat on her back, dead silent - wanting only for me to hurry up and finish is killing me. 

I’m sure I’m not the only guy that has had to watch my sex life disappear. Guess I’m looking to others for advice on how you have managed in your marriages. I guess sex eventually dries up in every relationship as we get older

Thanks for your thoughts


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

Good question......I think you are going to hear some stories about how they still rock each other's world and some stories about how the physical act doesn't mean as much as the overall mental connection. You and your wife are obviously in different camps. This is just something you are going to have to work out with your spouse and decide if you can live with the answer.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

tx_bluesfan said:


> So I am 63 and DW IS 69. She loves me dearly but sex is just not important to her. She really has no need for my touch nor does she understand my need for her touch.
> 
> She is up for a quickie about once a week but only for my benefit. This helps with my physical needs but does nothing for my need to feel wanted, needed, or desired.
> 
> ...


Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't dry up. If it is important to you, you need to tell her. If she doesn't get it or has some valid reason (pain, dryness, etc) then I would suggest you have some couples counseling. Sex shouldn't dry up just because you are getting older and have been in a relationship for some time. What does dry up, seems to be mutual respect and understanding. After a long time people tend to take their SO for granted. Perhaps she needs reminded that sex is still important to you and it isn't because you are some horn dog. You actually want to be close to her and to feel she wants to be close to you. It is how you feel connected to her. She is after all (or should be) the only person in the world you share this experience with.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

No it’s not normal. Granted lots of women beyond menopause aren’t feeling as frisky as they once did but that doesn’t mean sex is over!!!! 

Just like older men sometimes need a boost to get things going, older women need a boost to consider getting things going. You’re going to have to put more effort into finding the matches before you try to light the fire!

I think your wife is being unreasonable and self centered. She can’t have been living in a box all these years and not understand sex is a lot more than tab A slot B shake till it foams. 

You don’t mention how long you’ve been married nor what you sex life was like prior to dotage onset so if this is not much of a departure from the rest of the marriage, I believe you bed has done been made. But it doesn’t mean you’re stuck with this wife. I hear healthy active males in those 55+ communities get a ton of action.

However, if her starfish sex offering is relatively new, menopause onset, you’re going to have to let her know this will not work for you.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

I guess if normal is >50% of women in relationships maybe it is not normal. 

OTOH, I bet close to or more than 50% of 70 year old have no or minimal interest in sex.

From Psychology Today:



> A sizable minority of women are still sexually active into their 80s, giving the lie to the belief that older people no longer have sex.
> 
> Among women 70-79, 34% said they had sex or masturbated in the last year, compared to 14% of those 80-90 years of age. Not surprisingly, marital status makes a difference. More than 41% of 80- to 90-year-old women who lived with a partner reported some sexual activity in the previous year.
> 
> Interest in sex doesn’t simply end at 70—or even 80 or beyond—as many of us assume. We now know that the most important predictor of sexual interest and activity in a person’s later years is frequency of sexual activity earlier in life: If sex is central to a person’s happiness at age 30, it will probably still be so at age 60.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Granted lots of women beyond menopause aren’t feeling as frisky as they once did but that doesn’t mean sex is over!!!!


Certainly sex is not over, but it is different than 25+ years ago. The old formula of foreplay, penetration and 2 orgasms (preferably simultaneously) doesn't work or happen for us anymore. And nowadays "sex" is a much broader term than it was. And while it was always very cerebral, it's more so now. 

Occasionally when she's not feeling super frisky, rather than accepting starfish sex we'll have some naked time. Basically foreplay and see where it leads. If she still doesn't get her frisky on at the very least she'll provide eye candy and boobs for me to take care of myself on to. That works great occasionally and does provide good emotional connection, and if she were unwilling, well, we'd have problems.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

*runs off to look up what 'starfish sex' means*


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## Ms. Hawaii (Mar 28, 2018)

Wow people still have sex in their 60s??


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

Ms. Hawaii said:


> Wow people still have sex in their 60s??


......smart ass......


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

Ms. Hawaii said:


> Wow people still have sex in their 60s??


Before my marriage headed for divorce a year ago, I would have even said the same about people in their late 30s lol


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

What old people still have sex? You don't say. 

I will let you know in 20 years what I think of old people sex. :laugh:


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Ynot said:


> Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't dry up. If it is important to you, you need to tell her. If she doesn't get it or has some valid reason (pain, dryness, etc) then I would suggest you have some couples counseling. Sex shouldn't dry up just because you are getting older and have been in a relationship for some time. What does dry up, seems to be mutual respect and understanding. After a long time people tend to take their SO for granted. Perhaps she needs reminded that sex is still important to you and it isn't because you are some horn dog. You actually want to be close to her and to feel she wants to be close to you. It is how you feel connected to her. She is after all (or should be) the only person in the world you share this experience with.


This is great advice. Renewed communication sounds like it will be fruitful. I'm 56, at 63 you're my hero 😊.

Good luck!


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

gowithuhtred said:


> This is great advice. Renewed communication sounds like it will be fruitful. I'm 56, at 63 you're my hero 😊.
> 
> Good luck!


I am 57. The OP is 63. But just so you know. sometimes no amount of communication is going to change anything. In the end it, whatever you do is your own choice. Some people resign themselves to living the rest of their life in sexless or relatively sexless marriages. Some people decide life is too short and move on.


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## LuckyM (Apr 8, 2018)

An interesting thread. Don't know the answer, but what would happen if a senior single man in decent shape and looks meets a similar such lady, should he expect some modicum of sex or physical closeness? I have read many times that senior women have given up on sex or any gratification and just want to be companions? Or does it depend on the
culture or individual? Europeans are different from Americans I think. Because it is one thing when a long married couple tires of each other, and another unlikely situation when two single seniors find each other attractive and----go at it.
The cliche that men seek younger women is true up to a point for many reasons. Much harder to meet someone compatible the older we get, I have found, sadly. The social landscape is very different.


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## Ms. Hawaii (Mar 28, 2018)

stillfightingforus said:


> Before my marriage headed for divorce a year ago, I would have even said the same about people in their late 30s lol




I’m in my early-mid 20s and I’ve always thought that people stopped having sex in their 60s. I guess I learned something new!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Ynot said:


> I am 57. The OP is 63. But just so you know. sometimes no amount of communication is going to change anything. In the end it, whatever you do is your own choice. Some people resign themselves to living the rest of their life in sexless or relatively sexless marriages. Some people decide life is too short and move on.


Just so you know, imho the above are the obvious possibilities. 

Let's give this situation some hope and encouragement. I vote for this working out and say there's plenty of evidence the OPs relationship with W comes out stronger on the other side. (Good, clear) communcation may work just fine, with a little or lot of romance mixed in.

OP is still my hero.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

gowithuhtred said:


> Just so you know, imho the above are the obvious possibilities.
> 
> Let's give this situation some hope and encouragement. I vote for this working out and say there's plenty of evidence the OPs relationship with W comes out stronger on the other side. (Good, clear) communcation may work just fine, with a little or lot of romance mixed in.
> 
> OP is still my hero.


I know those are possible outcomes. I always hope couples, especially long term couples can work things out. But sometimes it just isn't meant to be for one reason or another. It is best to be aware of your options so you can make the correct choices.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

anonmd said:


> I guess if normal is >50% of women in relationships maybe it is not normal.
> 
> OTOH, I bet close to or more than 50% of 70 year old have no or minimal interest in sex.
> 
> ...



Well, you learn something every day!
Wife and I will hopefully continue to prove this true to infinity and beyond!


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Ms. Hawaii said:


> I’m in my early-mid 20s and I’ve always thought that people stopped having sex in their 60s. I guess I learned something new!


That is just sad. Where on earth would you have ever heard such a thing? People have sex for as long as they are physically able to and sometimes beyond that. You do realize that those Viagra commercials are not aimed at people like the actors and actresses that do them don't you. Do you think there might be some reason why they tell users to "ask your doctor if you are healthy enough for sexual activity before using Viagra"


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

tx_bluesfan said:


> So I am 63 and DW IS 69. She loves me dearly but sex is just not important to her. She really has no need for my touch nor does she understand my need for her touch.
> 
> She is up for a quickie about once a week but only for my benefit. This helps with my physical needs but does nothing for my need to feel wanted, needed, or desired.
> 
> ...


OK, I am 69 and my Dear W is 68. When I was 61, I came very close to divorcing my wife, because I was in a sex starved marriage. I could have said everything you did, but would have added that she emotionally abused me after sex (which was very infrequent) when I was emotionally vulnerable. If fact it got to the point where she stopped having sex with me at all. Your wife is still at least having sex with you, count your blessings, there are lots of guys out there that would exchange a weekly quickly for no sex at all, ever. 

Three books made a huge impact on my life and my marriage; MW Davis, the Sex Starved Marriage, Glovers' No More Mr. Nice Guy, and Chapman's the 5 Languages of Love. I would suggest you get an read each of them as they might help. Another book that my wife read (but I found pretty depressing) was Still Sexy after All These Years. It is a serious of interviews with women over 50 who have husbands who have died, divorced, medical conditions, etc so they don't have a traditional sex partner and what those women have done to retain either a degree of sexuality or sensuality in their life. 

What helped save my marriage was my giving my wife space, and Getting a Life, which is code (MW David and Glover) for improving myself and gaining confidence and a feeling of self worth. That makes a man much more sexy to a woman. Still my wife is LD compared to me and even with her realizing other women she knew were telling her how attractive I was and lucky she was to have me, she didn't want to have the level of sex I needed. I talked to her about non-sex things (sensual) she could do so that I would feel emotionally connected to her, but she just could not do that either.

Ultimately, we got into marriage counseling with a very good sex therapist who really helped save our marriage. During one session the ST asked my W what she thought would happen if we never had sex again? After a lot of avoidance, my wife said we would probably divorce at some point. The ST asked me if I had every thought of divorce. I said I had, I had looked up the divorce laws in this state and that I had made a promise to myself that by my 62nd birthday, I would be in a loving and sexual relationship with a woman and while I wanted it to be my wife, if she couldn't, then I would divorce her and find someone else.

The ST first helped me define what a "loving and sexual relationship" was. Then the ST helped my wife and I negotiate what my wife was capable of doing to supply that "loving and sexual relationship." That is how we set boundaries on acceptable behavior toward each other. Kind of brutal, but it worked and allowed us to slowly rebuild our marriage.

You are in a similar but different situation, but I would suggest you work on yourself and that you and your wife get some marriage counseling with a good sex therapist to help you refine the way you treat each other. Also learning how to communicate your needs to each other and how serious those needs are to a healthy marriage.

Prior to retirements, one of the things I did was setting up marriage counseling with a regular counselor (who has a specialty in life transitions) for my wife and I. The idea was to explore and define expectations as we get older and as medical and other problems occur during the aging process. There will come a time when medical conditions get in the way of sexual intercourse and so some form of "sexual outercourse" or sensual intimacy may be the only option. At your wife's age, that is something to think about and be prepared for.

Good luck. Use this as an opportunity to improve yourself and your relationship with your wife. She at least cares enough to have sex with you even if her heart isn't in it.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

tx_bluesfan there is no one standard regarding sexuality. Some women say they want to retire from being sexual. All they want is an activity partner to travel with and eat meals in restaurants. Some women want someone mostly to share the expenses. The more i hear about older women, the more I hear that sex isn't on their want list. Of course there are exceptions. BTW, I have a few years on you and things literately "dried up" with her several years ago.

Now I am the handyman, cook, bill payer, etc. I quit trying anything romantic. She moved to the spare bedroom several years ago. My W watches TV all day and that is about it.

Is till have a burning physical desire, which when ignored, lead to frustration and eventually resentments. I tried anti depressants. They didn't help. Now I go to the gym, ride my bicycle, and do things alone. After 50 yrs I am ready to pull the plug.

Young at Heart is about the only one to successfully turn things around.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

I suggest that you have a frank talk with your wife. That is what we did to find out why my wife did never initiated sex. There were four reasons. The first was that she was self conscious or her body and did not find my old man one attractive either. We used to be a very attractive couple in our younger days. The second was that my wife found intercourse painful and withholding it from me made her feel bad so she avoided sex. The third reason had to do with women who are Proactive versus Reactive. Proactive women initiate sex while Reactive ones start off not in the mood but shortly after starting sex, become horny. My wife is Reactive. I made her realize that she always had a great orgasm once the sex started and to keep that in mind. It is amazing how she can go from not in the mood to one or more intensive orgasms in under a few minutes. 

The last reason was that we were both masturbating too much. With our physical limitations and medical issues it was far easier to just masturbate. Often one or both of us were not in the mood. We did a few things to fix our sex life. I started to show how desirable my wife was, as she is now, both verbally and physically. She once asked me how I can be attracted to her current body. My reply was that when I see her, I still picture the young hot girl I married. I love her, not what she looks like. We set the weekend for sex time. That allowed us, mostly me, to not masturbate a few days before the weekend. I also talked my wife into bringing BOB into our bed. Her Battery Operated Buddy gives her very intense, bordering on painful, orgasms every time whether she is in the mood or not. I also told my wife that I did not need intercourse and in fact prefer oral or whatever gives her the most sexual pleasure. After all, I do not need my ego stroked by being the only thing that makes her orgasm. 

Around here there are doctors who specialize in treating men and women with low sex drives. There is help if the person is willing to seek it. One woman we know went to a doctor and treated her to get her libido back. However your wife must want to feel horny again. Some women are just done with sex and do not want to have to want it anymore. There are women in their 80's here who are still sexually active and say that their orgasms are the best they ever had. If you both want a better sex life, there are ways to fix it. We have done so, and we are 67 and 66 while married for 46 years. 

Great sex is borne of great communication. My wife and I both know what the other likes, our sexual fantasies and what buttons to press. We also know that sex, even cuddling, releases the hormone Oxytocin which emotionally bonds a couple together. It is the same hormone that bonds a mother to her child. Very powerful stuff and why sex often turns into love. Without it there is no desire for intimacy and you end up being friends rather than lovers. So make sure you cuddle and have sex as much as possible, even if you just cuddle for a few minutes. Sometimes my wife and I will just stay dressed and cuddle in bed for 15 minutes talking about our life together and how happy we are. Intimacy is something you have to work at and from our perspective nothing succeeds like success, so we have been doing something right for all these years. First step is a heart to heart talk. Good luck and hope it works out for you as it did for us.


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## tx_bluesfan (Jun 28, 2013)

OP here. First of all...thank you for your thoughts. I read here often. I love my wife very much and I know she loves me. I have no interest in starting over with someone new at this stage of the game. 

I do consider myself fortunate that we do have a sex life. DW is certainly orgasmic. As a guy, I would think that the wonderful feeling of orgasm would be, on its own, enough reason to want and desire sex. But it is not for her. 

I know her well enough to know she is being as honest with me as possible when she tells me that she just has zero libido. I am 100 percent sure that counseling would not change that. 

The point of my post is not lack of sex. It’s that feeling of not being desired. It’s one thing to be “willing” to have sex but it’s quite another to “want” to have sex. I could take care of my physical needs on my own. But that does nothing to satisfy my need to feel desired, to feel wanted and to feel needed. 

I know my situation will not change just as other men have stated. I think it is difficult for women to understand that most men need to feel desired. 

Often, when we have sex, I see that she has zero interest and I just feel like stopping and walking away. I don’t understand why it is so hard for her to understand my need - even if it is impossible for her have the feelings for me that I crave

I wish I knew better how to cope with this. Thanks again for all of the thoughts.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

tx_bluesfan said:


> I wish I knew better how to cope with this. Thanks again for all of the thoughts.


The only way to cope with this is to recognize that you are making the choice to stay with her. Which means you are doing this to yourself. She is not doing anything to you. You are doing this to you.

Whenever you find yourself thinking "I wish she wanted me", slap yourself hard on the cheek. Go to a mirror, look at yourself and say "stop it". Do not allow those thoughts to linger. You have decided to stay in a marriage with a woman who does not desire you sexually. This might well be the best choice for your life. Not saying it is a mistake to stay. Just saying that if you are going to stay, you do not get the luxury of telling yourself "woe is me, how did this happen to me?" It happened because you want to stay with her for all the other reasons that she brings joy to your life. Or because of whatever loss or pain you fear would arise if you left her. Own your choice.

I decided to stay 13 years ago. I have NOT taken my own advice. Not accepting it has destroyed me as a man and as a person. Do not follow in my ill-fated footsteps. Make a choice. Then own it.

And FWIW, I think no sex at all is much easier to tolerate than occasional sex that your wife clearly does not enjoy. We have only had sex about 3 times in the past 3 years (I feel she is entitled to sex on her birthday or Valentine's day or our anniversary if she asks for it). Much less painful than the years when we had sex 4 or 10 or 12 times but I asked for it 40 or 50 or 100 times.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

STD/STIs are growing the most in the elderly population, like 70s and 80s. They are all having unprotected sex and spreading infections!!! True fact. Yes, older people have sex, a lot of it.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Ms. Hawaii said:


> I’m in my early-mid 20s and I’ve always thought that people stopped having sex in their 60s. I guess I learned something new!


Some have stopped, none stopped wanting....


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## Randy2 (Jul 19, 2016)

tx_bluesfan said:


> OP here.
> 
> The point of my post is not lack of sex. It’s that feeling of not being desired. It’s one thing to be “willing” to have sex but it’s quite another to “want” to have sex. I could take care of my physical needs on my own. But that does nothing to satisfy my need to feel desired, to feel wanted and to feel needed.


Our situation is not as distant as described by the original poster. But my wife is similarly non-communicative in bed. She is better out-of-bed with occasional sensual/sexual banter. 

I have discovered that my-male-mind is pretty easy. I don't expect her to moan, talk, and scream like a movie actress. But I can get the occasional, "Mmmm, yes" or "Just like that" or "Keep going, don't stop", by actually ASKING HER to say those words ahead of time. The more often she says those words, the more see SEEMS to me to believe them. I may be deceiving myself, but hey, it sure feels good, so I'll keep doing it. And she SEEMs to be enjoying it more too.

Just asking her to be "more sexual" or "more communicative" or "desirous" doesn't work. Asking for the actual words does work and connects the audio to the visual to the physical, so it sure doesn't feel like starfish sex.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think there's a lot of variation in this. We are both in our 60's and have regular sex - I don't even think the frequency has changed since we were younger. What has changed is the variety. It is much more routine, which I bemoan to some degree, but have to admit that if he threw me around the bed, I'd probably fracture something....

Anyway, for us, we have 'settled' into a consistent pattern. My H says he loves it - 'we've got a great system, why change it?' lol - and I miss the excitement of the variety, but am careful what I wish for.

Perhaps you could try to change it up in age-appropriate ways? Female-targeted lubricant, for example? Add some more romance to the 'system?'


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## pushing50 (Aug 5, 2010)

Holdingontoit said:


> The only way to cope with this is to recognize that you are making the choice to stay with her. Which means you are doing this to yourself. She is not doing anything to you. You are doing this to you.
> 
> Whenever you find yourself thinking "I wish she wanted me", slap yourself hard on the cheek. Go to a mirror, look at yourself and say "stop it". Do not allow those thoughts to linger. You have decided to stay in a marriage with a woman who does not desire you sexually. This might well be the best choice for your life. Not saying it is a mistake to stay. Just saying that if you are going to stay, you do not get the luxury of telling yourself "woe is me, how did this happen to me?" It happened because you want to stay with her for all the other reasons that she brings joy to your life. Or because of whatever loss or pain you fear would arise if you left her. Own your choice.
> 
> ...


I swear I'm going to have this framed, matted, and hung on the wall. Or I'll screenshot it and use as my phone's wallpaper. In any event, you spoke something I've needed to hear for *years*, and am just now coming to terms with.

(but I would still love to throttle whatever minor deity in the relationship pantheon decided this was a good path for my life)


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

tx_bluesfan said:


> So I am 63 and DW IS 69. She loves me dearly but sex is just not important to her. She really has no need for my touch nor does she understand my need for her touch.
> 
> She is up for a quickie about once a week but only for my benefit. This helps with my physical needs but does nothing for my need to feel wanted, needed, or desired.
> 
> ...


*I feel for you, friend! But I'm of an opinion that it doesn't necessarily "dry up" in every Senior relationship!

But if that's truly the extent of one's love life, then I guess that I'd just rather remain single!*


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

tx_bluesfan said:


> She is up for a quickie about once a week but only for my benefit. This helps with my physical needs but does nothing for my need to feel wanted, needed, or desired.


I want you to want me.
I need you to need me.
I'm begging you to beg me...

That tune sound familiar? It should because it is a rather old tune and it gets older each time you hear it! 

Ask your wife instead if you make her feel "wanted, needed, and desired?" Odds are you would be very surprised by her answer. She likely feels old, undesirable, and rather used so that you can take care of your physical needs. Reality is you find your wife very desirable and attractive. Work on better ways of letting her know that and try to attribute your "physical needs" to a more positive form of energy in the relationship that will help give her more confidence in herself. 

If you build her confidence she would probably learn to enjoy toying with your mind and being much more playful with you during times of nonsexual intimacy. That should be your goal! 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

So, at 63 (me) and 62 (wife) are we having senior sex? For what it's worth, I would have no issue daily. The tough part is getting the wife to understand that sex for a guy is not just a physical thing, but a connection. It's so odd, since we're told women are more emotional than men, that us guys are more logical. My wife can list a zillion things she does that show, in her mind, that she loves me. But nearly all of those could be done by someone you could hire. It's so strange that a woman married to a guy wouldn't find happiness & joy in doing something that makes him feel so much better for a day or two. Even if one had zero libido, where there's zero arousal, isn't sex with your partner just like anything else you might do just because you know it makes him or her happy? 

There is no question my wife was expecting my sex drive to slow down as I got older. To some extent our sex life has become a duty to her, and it's become obvious at times that she's resented it somewhat. But after a recent crisis, I believe she's coming around to understand how there's a benefit to "us" not just me, and even with zero libido, it can, and should, be something that both of us can find happiness in. If that makes any sense at all. 

I should add that functionally she's no different today than she was 40 years ago. In fact, she's much less likely to feel soreness after sex, and still every bit as orgasmic from oral sex, maybe even more so, than long ago. It's just that, for her, once a week would be just fine.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I wonder -- did you ever have common understanding of your feelings about sex? It seems odd to me that this comes up after all these years.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder -- did you ever have common understanding of your feelings about sex? It seems odd to me that this comes up after all these years.


Is that regarding my post? If so, it's the sort of thing that's been an issue off and on pretty much since the beginning. I think there's more common ground now than ever before, which is a good thing, better than drifting apart and wondering what happened.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> Is that regarding my post? If so, it's the sort of thing that's been an issue off and on pretty much since the beginning. I think there's more common ground now than ever before, which is a good thing, better than drifting apart and wondering what happened.


Well I guess I asked because I think it is rare for an issue like this to be solely drive related. Issues of relationship require context of the entire marriage.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

tx_bluesfan said:


> So I am 63 and DW IS 69. She loves me dearly but sex is just not important to her. She really has no need for my touch nor does she understand my need for her touch.
> 
> She is up for a quickie about once a week but only for my benefit. This helps with my physical needs but does nothing for my need to feel wanted, needed, or desired.
> 
> ...


It all depends on what you and your wife need. I am 70 and my wife is 69, we are a typical HD/LD couple. Some of the best insights I have gotten recently are David Schnarch's book Intimacy and Desire. It is kind of a gut wrenching read, as his initial statement is that the LD partner (Your and my wife) controls the frequency of sex just about always. The first several chapters will rip your heart out. In later chapters, he tells you how your wife, if she wants to, can change her desire. He is big on developing a collaborative relationship and emotionally growing what he calls your four points of balance. That plus very emotionally significant sex is the way to reprogram your mind and your spouses level of desire.

Do I think that this is a cure all? NOPE. Does it give you insights? Yes. My wife and I have done a Gottman Art and Science of Love weekend. We have each read MW Davis book the sex starved marriage. We also have worked with a marriage counselor that was a sex therapist. I would advise doing all for you and your wife, if she will. Out of all of this there are some overlapping areas and when you hear the same concept explained from a different perspective it often makes more sense and allows you to incorporate the concept in your relationship with your spouse.

It takes two to either make or destroy a marriage. If you wife cares about staying married and you can't stay in a marriage that doesn't have the sex you need, then things will eventually lead to divorce.

Before you come to that conclusion, I also recommend you Read and study Glover's book No More Mr. Nice Guy. Glover describes a nice guy as someone who is clingy and codependent on his wife's sexual validation of himself and his ego. Glover points out ways (as does MW Davis and Schnarch) for a man to work on changing himself for the better that will decrease his need for emotional validation by his wife and allow his wife the freedom she needs to choose if she wants to be more sexual, rather than feeling constantly pressured into sex with her husband.

Good luck

Been there and done that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

OP, was you wife always like this? Did she always just want this sex in one position in the dark? If she was then I guess there isn't much you can do to change things now. 

We are age 63 and 62, we have regular sex which we both enjoy. . 

I wish I could tell your wife that she doesn't need to 'feel' like sex to have sex AND make it enjoyable for you. You say that she loves you very much, but the reason why I made the decision when I married that I would never refuse sex, and that I would make sure that he enjoyed it, was because of my love for him. Who cares if I don't always 'feel' like it, it's very important and it enables us to connect emotionally as well as physically. I definitely feel that loss of connection if we haven't had sex for a while, so I know that's true. 

I do sympathise, and I wish your wife would make more effort. Please tell her how deeply you feel and how this is affecting you. I think its very selfish to know that your spouse is suffering in this way and not make any effort to make it better.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> OP, was you wife always like this? Did she always just want this sex in one position in the dark? If she was then I guess there isn't much you can do to change things now.
> 
> We are age 63 and 62, we have regular sex which we both enjoy. .
> 
> ...


No need to quote you to my wife... you just quoted ME. Everything you said, I brought up. Too funny in a way. It's unreal. Pretty much exactly what you said; that her enjoyment of sex shouldn't have to come from the physical act itself but the result, how it makes me feel, which improves how we feel. I've upped my game dramatically in terms of doing things with her around the house, figuring that 20 minutes of extra time working with her in the kitchen might allow her to feel less tired for 7 minutes of sex.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Casual Observer said:


> No need to quote you to my wife... you just quoted ME. Everything you said, I brought up. Too funny in a way. It's unreal. Pretty much exactly what you said; that her enjoyment of sex shouldn't have to come from the physical act itself but the result, how it makes me feel, which improves how we feel. I've upped my game dramatically in terms of doing things with her around the house, figuring that 20 minutes of extra time working with her in the kitchen might allow her to feel less tired for 7 minutes of sex.


I don't think that tiredness has much to do with it to be honest.

How long have you been married and has she always been this way?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> I don't think that tiredness has much to do with it to be honest.
> 
> How long have you been married and has she always been this way?


I think sex has always been a disappointment for her. Everything else, in her mind, that led up to it was thrilling, fun, risky, whatever. But actual sex itself was assuredly a big letdown for her. Which I think led up to some of the issues I brought up in the "diary" thread, because with me, everything was settled down and no longer exciting, and piv "sex" became something that just wasn't much fun for her. That really hasn't changed in 40+ years. The odd thing is that she is typically multi-orgasmic during oral sex. But, once every 6 days or so is enough for her. 

Still have some issues sharing this much detail in an on-line forum, but I really appreciate the kindness and empathy that you've shown. Thank you.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Casual Observer said:


> I think sex has always been a disappointment for her. Everything else, in her mind, that led up to it was thrilling, fun, risky, whatever. But actual sex itself was assuredly a big letdown for her. ......and piv "sex" became something that just wasn't much fun for her. That really hasn't changed in 40+ years. The odd thing is that she is typically multi-orgasmic during oral sex. *But, once every 6 days or so is enough for her.*
> ....


I hate to break this to you, but sex more than once a week in a 40+ year relationship is actually not too bad, all things considered.

Let me back up a bit, my wife and I ended a sex starved marriage (yes no sex for months at a time, typically sex less than 4 times a year) with the negotiating help of a sex therapist. My boundary for staying in the marriage was loving sex twice a week. That was incredibly hard for me to accept, but as the sex therapist told me after no sex for months, what would I have said if my wife offered to have sex with me once a week, or better yet twice a week. We have both accepted this compromise and commitment to our marriage for the past 8 years. 

There are lots of guys on this forum who are in true sex starved marriages that would be thrilled to have a woman that wants sex once a week. Yes, it might not be enough for you or me, but it is not as bad as you think nor way out of the normal range for older couples.

My suggestion is that you figure out if it is the frequency or the lack of emotional engagement that is most troubling to you when it comes to sex with your wife. What if she developed her own passions and started really sexually desiring you, but only once of week........would you ask for more or could you find happiness.

Once you figure out what you really want talk to your wife, tell her his is a serious topic and you want it treated seriously. Explain your feelings, your emotional needs and suggest that you would like the two of you to talk to a sex therapist to see if you and her can find happiness together rather than constantly avoiding talking about the elephant in the room.

Good luck.

My wife and I went to marriage counseling with a sex therapist when our children left home and we were empty nesters, but by then we had lots of issues and years of bad habits. Then after we retired, we decided to do a "marital tune up." Sort of like before you take your car on a long road trip, you take it in for a complete check up. Well marriage counseling before/during early retirement is a good way to tune up some loose ends in a marriage as well.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Casual Observer said:


> I think sex has always been a disappointment for her. Everything else, in her mind, that led up to it was thrilling, fun, risky, whatever. But actual sex itself was assuredly a big letdown for her. Which I think led up to some of the issues I brought up in the "diary" thread, because with me, everything was settled down and no longer exciting, and piv "sex" became something that just wasn't much fun for her. That really hasn't changed in 40+ years. The odd thing is that she is typically multi-orgasmic during oral sex. But, once every 6 days or so is enough for her.
> 
> Still have some issues sharing this much detail in an on-line forum, but I really appreciate the kindness and empathy that you've shown. Thank you.


If sex has been such a disappointment to her, what has she done to try and make it better? It takes effort from both of you.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

tx_bluesfan said:


> So I am 63 and DW IS 69. She loves me dearly but sex is just not important to her. She really has no need for my touch nor does she understand my need for her touch.
> 
> She is up for a quickie about once a week but only for my benefit. This helps with my physical needs but does nothing for my need to feel wanted, needed, or desired.
> 
> ...


If she truly loves you, she can go to the trouble of faking a little more enthusiasm.

If you don't like family but go visit them anyway because you love her and know how much that means to her, do you go but sit quietly in the corner not talking to anyone?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> I hate to break this to you, but sex more than once a week in a 40+ year relationship is actually not too bad, all things considered.
> 
> Let me back up a bit, my wife and I ended a sex starved marriage (yes no sex for months at a time, typically sex less than 4 times a year) with the negotiating help of a sex therapist. My boundary for staying in the marriage was loving sex twice a week. That was incredibly hard for me to accept, but as the sex therapist told me after no sex for months, what would I have said if my wife offered to have sex with me once a week, or better yet twice a week. We have both accepted this compromise and commitment to our marriage for the past 8 years.
> 
> ...


OK, once a week is the most my wife would expect to, well, put up with, all things being equal. By her own choice, it might be once a month. We came to terms with things some time ago, but it's only recent that she's understood more sex is better for "us" not just me. She knows my feelings. She did not understand the emotional connection. It's really strange but women think guys are into sex purely for the physical act, and bam, it's over. She's always understood that I'm in a better mood, do more things around the house, and in general a much nicer person when there's regular sex. And yet could not make the connection that she benefits greatly from that and even if sex doesn't do anything wonderful for her in a physical sense, that there should be joy for her, in her mind, doing something that brings us closer together and better. 

She finally, now, maybe, gets that. Gets that it's not just 7 minutes but the entire next day that things are better for us. That it shouldn't be seen as a sacrifice on her part, or a "wifely duty" sort of thing. It's going to be subject to constant re-examination, obviously. Too easy for her to slip back into her old ways. But I think, finally, she gets that I have a need to feel loved physically that results in a more spiritual sort of love, a desire to cuddle more, to say nice things to her because, I was going to say my, but it's not really my, it's "our" needs are being taken care of.

And yes, the case could be made that I'm too HD for her, but that's been the case all along. I've provided no surprises to her. And she knows I'm 100% faithful.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> OK, once a week is the most my wife would expect to, well, put up with, all things being equal. By her own choice, it might be once a month. We came to terms with things some time ago, but it's only recent that *she's understood* more sex is better for "us" not just me.


I will ask this as gently as I can. Does she "understand" this or does she accept that YOU think this? 



> She knows my feelings. She did not understand the emotional connection. It's really strange but women think guys are into sex purely for the physical act, and bam, it's over. She's always understood that I'm in a better mood, do more things around the house, and in general a much nicer person when there's regular sex. And yet could not make the connection that she benefits greatly from that and even if sex doesn't do anything wonderful for her in a physical sense, that there should be joy for her, in her mind, doing something that brings us closer together and better.
> 
> 
> She finally, now, maybe, gets that. Gets that it's not just 7 minutes but the entire next day that things are better for us.


Well now. Here's the rub. If it were, indeed, better for her half of the "us", she would not be struggling to "get" it.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I will ask this as gently as I can. Does she "understand" this or does she accept that YOU think this?


For *now* she understands this. But that will change over time. While it seems wrong and shouldn't be needed, I think it's something I'm going to have to have her put in writing. Because it will come up again. 


Well now. Here's the rub. If it were, indeed, better for her half of the "us", she would not be struggling to "get" it.[/QUOTE]Don't agree with that. We don't always make rational decisions. She does know that it's better for "us" but it's tough to get past a certain amount of resentment due to invasion of her bubble. People here might want to make fun of my references to her having a bubble she lives in that protects her from different ways of looking at things, but trust me, it's very real.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Well now. Here's the rub. If it were, indeed, better for her half of the "us", she would not be struggling to "get" it.


Depends on what you mean by "better". Clearly, his wife does not much enjoy the sex (at least not when combined with the effort she has to make to motivate herself to say yes and whatever internal reaction she has afterward - so she may enjoy it in the moment but not enjoy the whole package of before, during and after). But she might find the net result of her discomfort with sex plus hubby being incredibly happier is a "better" outcome than her slightly enjoy the freedom from sex but hubby being terribly unhappy.

One could analogize to diet and exercise. We all know it is "better" for us if we eat healthy foods and get some exercise. Some of us face the choice and decide it is better to eat healthy and exercise even if we don't much enjoy doing it, because the benefits are worth the discomfort. Some decide the benefits are not worth the cost and sit on the couch eating ice cream and candy. I don't think it would be fair to say that everyone who chooses to exercise enjoys the exercise itself. Some like it. But some hate it, but like the health benefits, additional attractiveness, etc. so they do it anyway.

To me, this is at the heart of the debate over whether low drive people should only have sex when they "want to" or "feel like it". Are we really telling people to only have sex when they want it for the sensation, and to ignore the impact on their partner entirely? Or are we saying to do it only when you "want to" when taking into account how happy it will make your partner?

Would we say the same thing to someone overweight and out of shape? Only exercise when you feel like the sensations at the gym will be pleasant ones?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Depends on what you mean by "better". Clearly, his wife does not much enjoy the sex (at least not when combined with the effort she has to make to motivate herself to say yes and whatever internal reaction she has afterward - so she may enjoy it in the moment but not enjoy the whole package of before, during and after). But she might find the net result of her discomfort with sex plus hubby being incredibly happier is a "better" outcome than her slightly enjoy the freedom from sex but hubby being terribly unhappy.


The point I was making is only to ask the OP if she really agrees with it being better for them both or if she is merely accepting it for himself. The former is workable. The latter will fall apart. It is difficult to imagine effective communication when he is telling her what is better for "us" without inquiring as to her version of what is better for her half of the us.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Got it. Yes, the HD should not assume that their happiness would outweigh the LD's unhappiness. That needs to be discussed openly. Problem is, as discussed in other posts, few LDs will admit that having sex is a net negative for the couple. Because if they admit how much they dislike sex with their partner, they realize that could be the end of the relationship. So a bunch of them hide the truth.

You are absolutely correct to advise HDs to communicate in a warm and friendly manner so as to maximize the chances that they can get the LD to admit the truth. Once the truth is out in the open, they can both make evidence-based decisions.

And for the HD, do as I say and not as I do. Spend 3 - 6 months earnestly trying to resolve the mismatch. If it isn't fixed by then, leave.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> If she truly loves you, she can go to the trouble of faking a little more enthusiasm


I mean is she supposed to moan and scream "faster" and"harder" to either get him to cum faster or tire his ass out quickly? Then when he's done is she supposed to fake wanting to cuddle with him too? 

"Faking it" will always backfire. Either she will end up resenting him or give up on it entirely. Desire shouldn't be faked but that's not to say something else can motivate her to enjoy the act. 

She may not sexually desire her spouse but maybe she desires something else that could bring her enjoyment during the act. Massages are what comes to mind.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Got it. Yes, the HD should not assume that their happiness would outweigh the LD's unhappiness.


Following immediately after what I wrote I have to wonder if this is intended to have something to do with what I wrote? I am thinking not since it does not seem to.



> That needs to be discussed openly. Problem is, as discussed in other posts, few LDs will admit that having sex is a net negative for the couple. Because if they admit how much they dislike sex with their partner, they realize that could be the end of the relationship. So a bunch of them hide the truth.


Mmmm admit that the HD partner's preference is the better of the two. Seems to me that either could do the changing, yah? LD puts out more. Sure. Or HD "gets over it" so to speak. The point is effective communication is better when both positions are understood to have merit.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> I mean is she supposed to moan and scream "faster" and"harder" to either get him to cum faster or tire his ass out quickly? Then when he's done is she supposed to fake wanting to cuddle with him too?
> 
> "Faking it" will always backfire. Either she will end up resenting him or give up on it entirely. Desire shouldn't be faked but that's not to say something else can motivate her to enjoy the act.
> 
> She may not sexually desire her spouse but maybe she desires something else that could bring her enjoyment during the act. Massages are what comes to mind.


Agreed. She should never fake orgasms or scream "faster" and "harder".

She should, however act like she enjoys (some part of it) it and isn't bored to death and checking her watch, wondering when it's going to be over.

More like the way you'd like a guy to act when visiting your relatives when you know he's not enthused about the prospect. 

Approach it with a positive attitude and make the best of it.

Like that.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Following immediately after what I wrote I have to wonder if this is intended to have something to do with what I wrote? I am thinking not since it does not seem to.
> 
> 
> Mmmm admit that the HD partner's preference is the better of the two. Seems to me that either could do the changing, yah? LD puts out more. Sure. Or HD "gets over it" so to speak. The point is effective communication is better when both positions are understood to have merit.


But, the HD has generally already let how they feel be known.

It's the LD who hasn't fessed up.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> But, the HD has generally already let how they feel be known.
> 
> It's the LD who hasn't fessed up.


Or the LD has fessed up and doesn't accept that consequences are long term and not what's convenient right here & now. But ultimately I think we've made too much of micro-managing HD/LD as if it were some entirely separate thing on its own, and not part of a much larger picture in which one's HD desires might be offset, in terms of displeasure, by many other things that occur better as a result of a more-frequent sexual relationship.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Agreed. She should never fake orgasms or scream "faster" and "harder".
> 
> She should, however act like she enjoys (some part of it) it and isn't bored to death and checking her watch, wondering when it's going to be over.
> 
> ...


C' mon buddy. Comparing sex to visiting relatives is not even remotely the same. One feels like having someone use your body for their pleasure, the other is sitting through a bad conversation. Not. Even. Close.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> For *now* she understands this. But that will change over time. While it seems wrong and shouldn't be needed, I think it's something I'm going to have to have her put in writing. Because it will come up again.



Woa Well. I can honestly say I would not expect this to go well long term. Have you considered marriage counseling.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

We were at a family dinner this weekend. When we returned home, I turned to my wife, and told her how grateful I am to be married to her, and in love. And know that the love and sex are reciprocated. I said, in looking at another couple at the table, that I do not know how I could live like the two of them. No visible passion, or like for that matter. They seemed to be talking AT one another, instead of TO one another. I am a passionate man. I cannot live my life without it. Sex? I look at other women, and I know in my heart of hearts that I would never find what my wife and I have together. And it is not some unspoken thing. We acknowledge that we are different from our friends and a lot of our family. (Funny, one of my wife's gf's asked if we STILL had sex once in a while, when my wife said, every other day, her friend said that we were lying. Nobody over 60 has sex. I do, and if I am any judge, we do it quite well.-aside from the knee and joint pain)


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> C' mon buddy. Comparing sex to visiting relatives is not even remotely the same. One feels like having someone use your body for their pleasure, the other is sitting through a bad conversation. Not. Even. Close.


Well then, assuming that a woman agreed to have sex with her husband (for whatever reason), shouldn't she do something other than just lay there unmoving while checking her watch? Surely there's something short of faking orgasms, screaming and moaning?

If my wife agrees to have sex with me, is there any reason I should expect her to put a little effort into it? 

Sure, she just may not want to have sex. In which case, she should just say so.

From the man's perspective, is it ethical to have sex with a woman who doesn't have an orgasm as a result (or scream "faster", "harder')? 

BTW, I think that there are plenty of people (of both genders) who would be happy to have their SO *use* their body for the SO's pleasure.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> Problem is, as discussed in other posts, few LDs will admit that having sex is a net negative for the couple. Because if they admit how much they dislike sex with their partner, they realize that could be the end of the relationship. So a bunch of them hide the truth.





NobodySpecial said:


> Mmmm admit that the HD partner's preference is the better of the two. Seems to me that either could do the changing, yah? LD puts out more. Sure. Or HD "gets over it" so to speak. The point is effective communication is better when both positions are understood to have merit.


No, the HD's preference is NOT the better of the two.

The problem is that the HD has made clear that they would like to have more sex.

If the LD admits that they dislike sex with their partner, then everyone's in a position to decide if the HD should "just live with it" (which they've already been doing until this point), a compromise can be reached that both can live with, the LD can decide to "put out more" or they can separate.

But, until the LD is honest about their position, that can't be done.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> BTW, I think that there are plenty of people (of both genders) who would be happy to have their SO *use* their body for the SO's pleasure.


I think it goes back to the original reasons a woman might have found sex desirable. If the point was to attract a mate, once that job is over, feelings about sex might change in a significant way. It was a tool. This is probably especially the case for someone who found very little pleasure in the act itself but did enjoy the chase. The person for whom sex was both an enjoyable and intimate thing might be more inclined to continue such feelings long term. It's unfortunate that such possible clarity comes so late in life.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Casual Observer said:
> 
> 
> > For *now* she understands this. But that will change over time. While it seems wrong and shouldn't be needed, I think it's something I'm going to have to have her put in writing. Because it will come up again.
> ...


I'm very HD, and if my husband did this, he'd be using a fleshlight indefinitely.

Gross


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Well then, assuming that a woman agreed to have sex with her husband (for whatever reason), shouldn't she do something other than just lay there unmoving while checking her watch? Surely there's something short of faking orgasms, screaming and moaning?
> 
> If my wife agrees to have sex with me, is there any reason I should expect her to put a little effort into it?


If someone is going to go down the route of having sex with a partner who does not desire them, and they wish for them to "put in effort", then they need to define "effort'. OP, and other men who are in the same situation, should communicate exactly what actions they need from their wives during sex to feel desired. Is it kissing? Then say so. Is it smiles? Then say so. Is it dirty talk? Then say so. Is it moaning? Then say so. 

How many men do you think actually do this? My guess is very few because to many, it feels just as bad to know their spouse is faking enjoyment as it is to be rejected. Both can crumble the ego if they let it. 

A better conversation would be one where both parties discuss what they each find pleasurable and what they don't and then find common ground. These pleasurable actions may not be sexual in nature but they bond the couple. Tantra is a great example. Some versions of it just have the couple hugging. They may sit there staring into each other's eyes. There's no sexual penetration or sexual touching but the couple still feels emotionally bonded. 



> Sure, she just may not want to have sex. In which case, she should just say so.


I'm pretty sure OP's wife had told him she doesn't want to have sex as often as he does but goes along with once a week as a compromise. 



> From the man's perspective, is it ethical to have sex with a woman who doesn't have an orgasm as a result (or scream "faster", "harder')?


If they are in agreement, then there is nothing unethical about it. 



> BTW, I think that there are plenty of people (of both genders) who would be happy to have their SO *use* their body for the SO's pleasure.


Again, that's fine and dandy for people who have communicated and agreed with each other their expectations. 

Btw, I don't think a woman can * use * a man that doesn't desire to have sex unless she's the one penetrating him but that's a topic for another thread.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> Well then, assuming that a woman agreed to have sex with her husband (for whatever reason), shouldn't she do something other than just lay there unmoving while checking her watch? Surely there's something short of faking orgasms, screaming and moaning?
> 
> If my wife agrees to have sex with me, is there any reason I should expect her to put a little effort into it?
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree with this. It must be awful to have a spouse who shows no enthusiasm at all and clearly just 'gives in' to shut their spouse up occasionally. 

I don't care if I 'feel like it' or not, when my husband wants to have sex, I make the effort for him because I love him and care about him. I don't know, we have all got so self centered these days. Why cant we make that effort for their sake and for our marriages sake even if we may not 'feel like it' at that point in time? So much of marriage is about giving and being unselfish.
I WANT my husband to enjoy our sex life, and that includes never rejecting him for sex and making sure that he KNOWS I like having sex with him. Yes that can occasionally take effort and putting him first above what I may 'feel' like at that time, but so what? Its good for us to think of others before ourselves and feelings often lie anyway.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> I'm very HD, and if my husband did this, he'd be using a fleshlight indefinitely.
> 
> Gross


My husband jokes with me that I am a computer or a robot. So I will comment in the most robotic of ways. It just won't be effective.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I absolutely agree with this. It must be awful to have a spouse who shows no enthusiasm at all and clearly just 'gives in' to shut their spouse up occasionally.
> 
> I don't care if I 'feel like it' or not, when my husband wants to have sex, I make the effort for him because I love him and care about him. I don't know, we have all got so self centered these days. Why cant we make that effort for their sake and for our marriages sake even if we may not 'feel like it' at that point in time? So much of marriage is about giving and being unselfish.


Yah. But from the stand point of this husband seeking help with his wife, that attitude and a twenty dollar bill will get him a Starbucks.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> If someone is going to go down the route of having sex with a partner who does not desire them, and they wish for them to "put in effort", then they need to define "effort'. OP, and other men who are in the same situation, should communicate exactly what actions they need from their wives during sex to feel desired. Is it kissing? Then say so. Is it smiles? Then say so. Is it dirty talk? Then say so. Is it moaning? Then say so.


So, when a guy initiates sex with his wife, he just needs to toss in "move around occasionally and don't check your watch"?

Because this might not have occurred to her on her own?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> So, when a guy initiates sex with his wife, he just needs to toss in "move around occasionally and don't check your watch"?
> 
> Because this might not have occurred to her on her own?


I wonder what would happen if instead of insisting I want more sex or whatever someone just straight up ASKED do you even want to have sex with me? I wonder if said someone really wants to know.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder what would happen if instead of insisting I want more sex or whatever someone just straight up ASKED do you even want to have sex with me? I wonder if said someone really wants to know.


Yes, I wanted to know. Her answer was, “I want sex, just not the sex you’re giving me now”. (This being TAM, she never cheated.) We eventually got our issues worked out and found our new normal.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > If someone is going to go down the route of having sex with a partner who does not desire them, and they wish for them to "put in effort", then they need to define "effort'. OP, and other men who are in the same situation, should communicate exactly what actions they need from their wives during sex to feel desired. Is it kissing? Then say so. Is it smiles? Then say so. Is it dirty talk? Then say so. Is it moaning? Then say so.
> ...


If he's not getting the quality of sex he wants he can 

1) communicate his expectations to his wife. If his expectations are for her to "move around occasionally " and not "check her watch", then he needs to tell her this. 

2) ask his wife why she's not doing those things. If it's because she doesn't find the acts particularly enjoyable then look for ways to make things mutually satisfying. If it's because she hates him or sex, then stop asking her for sex. There are deeper problems in the marriage

I still don't understand how dancing around the issue is better than directly speaking on the subject.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder what would happen if instead of insisting I want more sex or whatever someone just straight up ASKED do you even want to have sex with me? I wonder if said someone really wants to know.


An interesting question whose answer does not necessarily mean the same thing to each party. To the HD person, if the LD person answers yes, they'd like to have sex, just not as often. And the "not as often" turns out to be once every few weeks. Is that answer really yes? To the HD person, it's likely a solid no. And to the person answering yes, but not very often, it could also be a "no" but represent what they could suffer through. 

Depending on the couple, sex every three weeks might be either completely satisfactory of rank as a sexless marriage in which neither person is happy. 

One of the issues here on TAM, from my perspective, and I realize I have very few posts... is that people tend to identify with one side or the other. There is very little emphasis on what both parties might individually improve upon. When I, and a few others, have made suggestions that certain changes or compromises by one party would make their own life better, it tends to get shot down. As always, there are deeper problems than appear on the surface. But sometimes I think we're better off if we don't act like that's the case and at least start by addressing the surface problem.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> An interesting question whose answer does not necessarily mean the same thing to each party. To the HD person, if the LD person answers yes, they'd like to have sex, just not as often. And the "not as often" turns out to be once every few weeks. Is that answer really yes? To the HD person, it's likely a solid no. And to the person answering yes, but not very often, it could also be a "no" but represent what they could suffer through.
> 
> Depending on the couple, sex every three weeks might be either completely satisfactory of rank as a sexless marriage in which neither person is happy.
> 
> One of the issues here on TAM, from my perspective, and I realize I have very few posts... is that people tend to identify with one side or the other. There is very little emphasis on what both parties might individually improve upon. When I, and a few others, have made suggestions that certain changes or compromises by one party would make their own life better, it tends to get shot down. As always, there are deeper problems than appear on the surface. But sometimes I think we're better off if we don't act like that's the case and at least start by addressing the surface problem.


*I* think the issue with TAM is that people label instead of looking at what is in front of themselves, that being, their spouse.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

CharlieParker said:


> Yes, I wanted to know. Her answer was, “I want sex, just not the sex you’re giving me now”. (This being TAM, she never cheated.) We eventually got our issues worked out and found our new normal.



My preface, I'm not picking on OP's answer specifically just using that answer to dig deeper.

Re the posted answer:

This answer demonstrates a common situational deflection men normally contend with and accept, take the blame, and start the feel bad loop start that often spirals out of control, and takes the focus off the W (or either SO depending on roles in this exchange). Which is many times the SO's intention. 

Here goes;

Her answer was, “I want sex, just not the sex you’re giving me now”.

Let's look at that.

H is saying he wants sex more often, so he asks why not.

Her answer "yes I want sex" you silly man. As in "I can't be the reason we're not having more sex, it's not me, it's all you fella."

Further; ""just not the sex you're giving me". 

As in "here's a reminder, it's not me in any shape or fashion not wanting to have sex, you personally are killing my natural lusty self". "you're not giving me ie not DOING TO ME" 

Like it's all on him. But all W say "I'm an equal sexual person" right? So accept the equality, not abscond when convenient. 

Her answer provided completely deflects any responsibility from her, encourages H to shoulder ALL the blame and reasons she can't, just can't (hand across forehead), can't, want to have sex, how dare he keep asking her,.

Notwithstanding:
If she wants to have sex, continue frequent sex, and keep her sex life with dear hubby fresh and passionate, her man, her partner;

at any time there was a lackluster feeling just starting, SHE could SPEAK UP, COME UP WITH IDEAS AND PASSION INJECTING STEPS she wanted H to do, say, go out dress up, SOMETHING, anything, to keep their encounters happy for both.

Just anything, because as the equal partner role she wants to hold, that comes with a responsibility to SAY SOMETHING if needed.

Not wait until Hs sexual meltdown turns into a problem, then say, "well of course honey, but it's ALL YOU that's killing my naturally lusty self, I'd want to, if you just weren't personally killing my libido".

As she smiles meekly and says "I do want sex, just not the sex you're giving me". 

As in "dammit, I'm an equal partner, but not in this. This is all your fault.
But don't ever treat me as if I'm not an equal partner in our life together.

Whhaaat??


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder what would happen if instead of insisting I want more sex or whatever someone just straight up ASKED do you even want to have sex with me? I wonder if said someone really wants to know.


I think that most HD males do not want to know. Which is why we are so good at ignoring all the red flags for so long.

I have overheard a couple of my wife's friends say, when they did not realize I was within hearing range, "don't you miss the hot guys we used to hookup with before we got married to our husbands?" If you are overweight and out of shape, you could hear that and figure "I will watch what I eat and exercise more and maybe I'll become hotter and get more sex". If you are already at the appropriate weight and do go to the gym regularly, you might not be willing to invest is whatever it might take to get you from where you are to "hot enough". I am guessing that for a substantial portion of women, there is nothing that the median height / weight / looks male could do to become "hot" in her eyes.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> I think that most HD males do not want to know. Which is why we are so good at ignoring all the red flags for so long.


Bingo. Must be the front row.



> I have overheard a couple of my wife's friends say, when they did not realize I was within hearing range, "don't you miss the hot guys we used to hookup with before we got married to our husbands?" If you are overweight and out of shape, you could hear that and figure "I will watch what I eat and exercise more and maybe I'll become hotter and get more sex". If you are already at the appropriate weight and do go to the gym regularly, you might not be willing to invest is whatever it might take to get you from where you are to "hot enough". I am guessing that for a substantial portion of women, there is nothing that the median height / weight / looks male could do to become "hot" in her eyes.


And most men simply will not accept that the properties you think you need to be hot aren't. And your wife didn't marry you to be hot. But somehow wanting nice, stable family over hot is something worth being crucified for.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> And your wife didn't marry you to be hot. But somehow wanting nice, stable family over hot is something worth being crucified for.


It definitely is worth being crucified for, IF she wasn't honest before marriage and during the marriage. Especially if she pretended to find him hot in order to bait him into marriage. Saying things like "smart is sexy" or "your sense of humor is so attractive". Those kinds of lies are most definitely worth being crucified for. 

If she told her soon-to-be-husband "you must realize I don't find you all that hot, but I want a nice stable family man to be the father of my kids. You are OK if sex isn't the most important aspect of our relationship, right?" then there is no reason to blame her for his decision to get married. But if she says "I never felt this way about any other man", and then grabs his hand and pulls him toward the bedroom, then yes she is guilty of fraud.

The crucifying part doesn't get triggered until she spends years of internal discussions and marriage counselling repeating the lie that she does find him hot, she just can't seem to find the time in her busy schedule, or clear her mind of all the responsibilities and "to do" lists that distract her from concentrating on his delicious body.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> It definitely is worth being crucified for, *IF she wasn't honest before marriage and during the marriage*.


What does that even mean? Did you guys sit down with a spreadsheet before marriage and line up:

# of times we have sex per week: ave 3/4
# of kids: 2 1/2
who sweeps: wife
who cleans garage: husband




> Especially if she pretended to find him hot in order to bait him into marriage. Saying things like "smart is sexy" or "your sense of humor is so attractive". Those kinds of lies are most definitely worth being crucified for.
> 
> 
> If she told her soon-to-be-husband "you must realize I don't find you all that hot, but I want a nice stable family man to be the father of my kids. You are OK if sex isn't the most important aspect of our relationship, right?" then there is no reason to blame her for his decision to get married. But if she says "I never felt this way about any other man", and then grabs his hand and pulls him toward the bedroom, then yes she is guilty of fraud.


Or change. Don't forget we can crucify for change. Does HE actually become a complacent person? That happens too.



> The crucifying part doesn't get triggered until she spends years of internal discussions and marriage counselling repeating the lie that she does find him hot, she just can't seem to find the time in her busy schedule, or clear her mind of all the responsibilities and "to do" lists that distract her from concentrating on his delicious body.


Whatever. I was not speaking specifically of any of these things. 

I won't lie. The crucifying part seems to come from the dude being a pansy who can neither **** nor get off the pot. You would not see an actually sexy guy put up with that.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> My preface, I'm not picking on OP's answer specifically just using that answer to dig deeper.
> 
> Re the posted answer:
> 
> ...


Or, instead of RedPilling the answer to make sure them wimmins is accountable, he can just delve into what kind of sex the woman he says he loves DOES want, and they can work on it together.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Or, instead of RedPilling the answer to make sure them wimmins is accountable, he can just delve into what kind of sex the woman he says he loves DOES want, and they can work on it together.


Yes!

They must "delve" which would include her communicating physical or verbally, preferably both, in their explorations of wild monkey porn sex (or long, slow, passionate) that works for both. 

And eliminates the circumstances of a long sex drought and then her saying hey it's all your fault I have no sex drive.

The "you don't give me good sex" is a go to statement, many times.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Yes!
> 
> They must "delve" which would include her communicating physical or verbally, preferably both, in their explorations of wild monkey porn sex (or long, slow, passionate) that works for both.
> 
> ...


Of course, it is hard to give good sex to a starfish....so there is that....


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> of course, it is hard to give good sex to a starfish....so there is that....


😁😁😁


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder what would happen if instead of insisting I want more sex or whatever someone just straight up ASKED do you even want to have sex with me? I wonder if said someone really wants to know.


Well, they might not WANT to know, but they'd probably prefer to hear that than just getting an endless list of obvious lame excuses.

And, doesn't the person who doesn't want to have sex have a certain obligation to let their partner know the truth regardless of whether the HD wants to hear it or not?

I mean, a wife may not WANT to hear that the reason her husband doesn't want sex with her is because she's 400 lbs or it's because she has terrible body odor, but he's supposed to tell her anyway. Right?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> If he's not getting the quality of sex he wants he can
> 
> 1) communicate his expectations to his wife. If his expectations are for her to "move around occasionally " and not "check her watch", then he needs to tell her this.
> 
> ...


Direct communication is optimal.

I just don't see why, if a woman agrees to have sex and then proceeds to just lay motionless while checking her watch, it's somehow primarily the man's fault for not being specific enough in his communication.

If a woman was telling you about how she was talking to her husband, he was watching TV, she said "you're not listening to me" and he said "I am"; would the first response be that she's at fault for not specifically asking him to turn off the TV and look at her while she's talking?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > If he's not getting the quality of sex he wants he can
> ...


 I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous Li silly. You are using the most extreme of situations to try to make a point that wasn't even the point. You know better than this


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Well, they might not WANT to know, but they'd probably prefer to hear that than just getting an endless list of obvious lame excuses.
> 
> And, doesn't the person who doesn't want to have sex have a certain obligation to let their partner know the truth regardless of whether the HD wants to hear it or not?
> 
> I mean, a wife may not WANT to hear that the reason her husband doesn't want sex with her is because she's 400 lbs or it's because she has terrible body odor, but he's supposed to tell her anyway. Right?


I don't know. Is he "supposed" to do that? Is he supposed to decide for her what she wants out of marriage?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> he can just delve into what kind of sex the woman he says he loves DOES want, and they can work on it together.


Well, he can delve into what kind of sex the woman he says he loves DOES want.

Or, she could actually tell him.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't know. Is he "supposed" to do that? Is he supposed to decide for her what she wants out of marriage?


?

I'm guessing that this is in reply to

"I mean, a wife may not WANT to hear that the reason her husband doesn't want sex with her is because she's 400 lbs or it's because she has terrible body odor, but he's supposed to tell her anyway. Right?"

Which was a supposed response to a woman asking her SO why he doesn't have sex with her.

Should he answer with the truth even though she may not want to hear it?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous Li silly. You are using the most extreme of situations to try to make a point that wasn't even the point. You know better than this


I agree that it's silly.

I think it was silly to propose that a woman appearing bored during sex was the man's fault for not specifically telling her what he wanted her not to appear bored.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > If he's not getting the quality of sex he wants he can
> ...


But buddy, you are making assumptions left and right. Never assume that your spouse thinks the same way that you do. It's not about how she or he SHOULD behave based on your expectations. It's about expressing those expectations so that there is no need for assumptions. 

This is also not about placing blame. This is about trying to get your needs met. If a woman wants her husband to turn off the TV so she can feel like he's giving her his undivided attention then yes, she SHOULD say exactly that. If he chooses to ignore her then she has to consider why. But she absolutely should communicate with him her need for a partner who listens to her without being distractions.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I mean, a wife may not WANT to hear that the reason her husband doesn't want sex with her is because she's 400 lbs or it's because she has terrible body odor, but he's supposed to tell her anyway. Right?


He can tell her "I need a woman who keeps herself fit to feel sexual desire". Boom, done. Now it is up to her to decide whether or not he's worth putting the effort to lose the weight or not.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Lila said:


> But buddy, you are making assumptions left and right. Never assume that your spouse thinks the same way that you do. *It's not about how she or he SHOULD behave based on your expectations. It's about expressing those expectations so that there is no need for assumptions. *
> 
> This is also not about *placing blame.* This is about trying to get your needs met. If a woman wants her husband to turn off the TV so she can feel like he's giving her his undivided attention then yes, she SHOULD say exactly that. If he chooses to ignore her *then she has to consider why*. But she absolutely should communicate with him her need for a partner who listens to her without being distractions.


The examples given are pretty linear up until this point. The thing oft ignored is the context of ones entire life.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > But buddy, you are making assumptions left and right. Never assume that your spouse thinks the same way that you do. *It's not about how she or he SHOULD behave based on your expectations. It's about expressing those expectations so that there is no need for assumptions. *
> ...


 Exactly. Like maybe the reason she just lays there is because all he really has ever cared about is getting himself off, and she just gave up on any of it being about her, so she just waits for him to finish making himself feel good.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> I think that most HD males do not want to know. Which is why we are so good at ignoring all the red flags for so long.





NobodySpecial said:


> Bingo. Must be the front row.


I just don't get this.

I don't understand why the fact that someone may not like the truth is an excuse for them not to be told the truth.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I won't lie. The crucifying part seems to come from the dude being a pansy who can neither **** nor get off the pot. You would not see an actually sexy guy put up with that.


As we might have guessed from the start, it's the guys fault for not being sexy.

A *real* man wouldn't put up with it.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> > I won't lie. The crucifying part seems to come from the dude being a pansy who can neither **** nor get off the pot. You would not see an actually sexy guy put up with that.
> ...


 Did that red pill go down OK sweetie question


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> He can tell her "I need a woman who keeps herself fit to feel sexual desire". Boom, done. Now it is up to her to decide whether or not he's worth putting the effort to lose the weight or not.


But, apparently, if he doesn't tell her that, it's because she doesn't want to hear it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> As we might have guessed from the start, it's the guys fault for not being sexy.


Ya know. It is not actually about fault. But how many people do you know what to have sex with people who aren't sexy?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> Did that red pill go down OK sweetie question


That wasn't what I said.

That's what @NobodySpecial said.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> That wasn't what I said.
> 
> That's what @NobodySpecial said.


It seems like you are twisting yourself up in a knot to lay some kind of blame on a woman who wants something different from marriage than her husband does. I am saying, a lot of these guys have all the info that they need. But somehow, his asking for more and her responding is not good enough.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > He can tell her "I need a woman who keeps herself fit to feel sexual desire". Boom, done. Now it is up to her to decide whether or not he's worth putting the effort to lose the weight or not.
> ...


There are many reasons why he wouldn't tell her. Could be he doesn't want to hurt her feelings. Could be they have an otherwise great relationship and he doesn't want to ruin that. Could be that he's afraid she'll leave him. There are many possibilities some with risks he may not be willing to take.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

This happens from time to time.

I have a great marriage, plenty of sex. Never been wronged by a woman.

And I get involved in one of these exchanges, start realizing just how totally un-empathetic women are towards men and I start thinking it's time to give up women.

Then I realize that I'm just getting pissed on principle and that's silly when I'm doing just fine.

But, I'm in the mood where I'd totally recommend to other men that, however much they think they need sex, it's just not worth it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Lila said:


> There are many reasons why he wouldn't tell her. Could be he doesn't want to hurt her feelings. Could be they have an otherwise great relationship and he doesn't want to ruin that. Could be that he's afraid she'll leave him. There are many possibilities some with risks he may not be willing to take.


It could be simply that s/he have to established that trust is safe in the relationship, particularly on certain subjects. When a reaction to truth is overwhelmingly negative, this is a great barrier to truth.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> What does that even mean? Did you guys sit down with a spreadsheet before marriage and line up:
> 
> # of times we have sex per week: ave 3/4
> # of kids: 2 1/2
> ...


Number of kids? Yes.
Who takes out garbage? Yes.
Who works full-time outside the home and who focuses mainly on staying home with the kids? Yes.
Sex? I told her I was not as experienced sexually as I hoped to be, and I wanted marriage to be the context for me to make up for lost time. She said that would not be a problem, since "smart is sexy" and she never felt about anyone else the way she felt about me.

So yes, we did discuss our visions for how our life together would be, in a fair amount of detail. Then sex pretty much stopped the day we said "I do." 

I understand, I should have had the marriage annulled the day the plane touched down in the US on the way back from our honeymoon. And I realize that a healthy or sexy man would not put up with what I accepted. And I realize I am unf***able. But that doesn't mean that my wife does not bear some of the responsibility for how we found ourselves here.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Number of kids? Yes.
> Who takes out garbage? Yes.
> Who works full-time outside the home and who focuses mainly on staying home with the kids? Yes.
> Sex? I told her I was not as experienced sexually as I hoped to be, and I wanted marriage to be the context for me to make up for lost time. She said that would not be a problem, since "smart is sexy" and she never felt about anyone else the way she felt about me.
> ...


Sounds like you got played. Is there some more information you need? Does anyone NOT think your wife bears responsibility? Does this sound like a pretty standard situation?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> If a woman was telling you about how she was talking to her husband, he was watching TV, she said "you're not listening to me" and he said "I am"; would the first response be that she's at fault for not specifically asking him to turn off the TV and look at her while she's talking?


My wife says those exact words. Please look at me while I am talking to you. Do we have to turn off the tv? And when she asks, I focus on her.
When I ask her to listen to me, she generally tells me it is too late and I am too tired. Or that my stories go on too long and I should get to the point quicker. That is OK. That helps me not feel so guilty that she had to ask me to pay attention to her when she wants to talk to me.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> My wife says those exact words. Please look at me while I am talking to you. Do we have to turn off the tv? And when she asks, I focus on her.
> When I ask her to listen to me, she generally tells me it is too late and I am too tired. Or that my stories go on too long and I should get to the point quicker. That is OK. That helps me not feel so guilty that she had to ask me to pay attention to her when she wants to talk to me.


Do you two even like each other?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> It seems like you are twisting yourself up in a knot to lay some kind of blame on a woman who wants something different from marriage than her husband does.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with woman wanting something different from from her marriage than her husband does.

As long as she tells him the truth.



NobodySpecial said:


> I am saying, a lot of these guys have all the info that they need.


You seem to propose that, rather than expecting her to tell the truth, he should just go with the worst case scenario. 

He probably should, though that's going to come at a cost of some fixable marriages not being fixed.



NobodySpecial said:


> his asking for more and her responding is not good enough.


It's plenty good if she responds honestly. 

If he asks for more sex and she avoids telling him the truth because she knows he may leave her if she does. That's not good.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Ya know. It is not actually about fault. But how many people do you know what to have sex with people who aren't sexy?


Tons and tons. Lots and lots of guys want to have sex with any female who is willing, and her being sexy is a bonus but not a requirement. Guys who are not totally hot prefer sexier partners to less sexy partners. But only have sex with women I think are particularly sexy? Most of my friends wish they had that luxury.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Do you two even like each other?


My wife is a wonderful warm hearted person. All her customers and co-workers love her. She takes good care of her friends when they have health issues. She would take good care of me if I had health issues. She is devoted to our children. She has many great qualities. And we generally have the same taste in music, food, and other areas of popular culture. Now that I have taken sex off the table, we enjoy our time together on weekends and don't have much conflict. 

Except when she wants me to treat her the way I did at the beginning of our marriage. Totally devoted to her. No thought for myself. Never disagree. Never raise my voice. Never allow my irritation with her to show. I told her that person is dead. She killed him. She cut off his oxygen supply and he died. She doesn't like that. She wants him back. Every so often she asks if he will ever return. I tend to redirect the conversation at those times. I figure if she was never honest with me about whether we would ever have more or better sex, then I don't owe her an honest answer to her question, either. Yes, that is petty and spiteful of me. And comes off on the forum as if I don't care for her at all. I do care. 

I just don't feel guilty about setting boundaries a fair bit farther away from her than they were at the start of our marriage. And zealously defending against any attempt on her part to get me to move closer to her. I love her. I like her. But I don't trust her. Or I should say, I don't trust her PTSD not to arise if I appear to be moving closer. And for me, the benefit of moving closer is not worth the cost of dealing with more PTSD. 

There are aspects of this relationship that I enjoy much more than I enjoyed the previous version. She holds my hands more. Cuddles up next to me in restaurants. Lets me hug her. I am not willing to risk any of that by moving toward a more open and honest relationship. I calculate that I can handle my needs never being met better than she can. So I don't want to kill her hope that if she keeps holding my hand I will go back to being more docile. I won't. But I feel no obligation to make that explicit. As you say, she has all the information she needs if she were being honest with herself. If she wants to pretend, I am happy to let her.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> OK, once a week is the most my wife would expect to, well, put up with, all things being equal. By her own choice, it might be once a month. We came to terms with things some time ago, but it's only recent that she's understood more sex is better for "us" not just me. She knows my feelings. She did not understand the emotional connection. It's really strange but women think guys are into sex purely for the physical act, and bam, it's over. She's always understood that I'm in a better mood, do more things around the house, and in general a much nicer person when there's regular sex. And yet could not make the connection that she benefits greatly from that and even if sex doesn't do anything wonderful for her in a physical sense, that there should be joy for her, in her mind, doing something that brings us closer together and better.
> 
> She finally, now, maybe, gets that. *Gets that it's not just 7 minutes* but the entire next day that things are better for us. That it shouldn't be seen as a sacrifice on her part, or a "wifely duty" sort of thing. It's going to be subject to constant re-examination, obviously. Too easy for her to slip back into her old ways. But I think, finally, she gets that I have a need to feel loved physically that results in a more spiritual sort of love, a desire to cuddle more, to say nice things to her because, I was going to say my, but it's not really my, it's "our" needs are being taken care of.
> 
> And yes, the case could be made that I'm too HD for her, but that's been the case all along. I've provided no surprises to her. And she knows I'm 100% faithful.


7 minutes for sex?:scratchhead: Are you kidding me? Am I the only one who thinks this might be the problem?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> This happens from time to time.
> 
> I have a great marriage, plenty of sex. Never been wronged by a woman.
> 
> ...



So you think that telling a man to communicate more effectively is being unempathetic? 



> But, I'm in the mood where I'd totally recommend to other men that, however much they think they need sex, it's just not worth it.


 I agree. Any man who can't express himself directly and ask for what he needs should avoid women at all costs. Saves a lot of heartache all around. 

My ex husband couldn't communicate his needs worth a piss and he ended up resenting the hell out of me for it. I wonder if our relationship would have been saved had he actually been able to express his needs effectively rather than expecting me to figure it out. We'll never know but I hope the discussion on this thread will help someone else avoid the same thing.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> This happens from time to time.
> 
> I have a great marriage, plenty of sex. Never been wronged by a woman.
> 
> ...


Buddy, perhaps if you have never experienced some of the dynamics discussed here, that’s why it seems there is a lack of understanding what NS and POI are saying.

I can see why it looks to you like a lack of empathy, but I think it’s your inability to directly relate that makes you unable to empathize with what they are saying and therefore unable to understand. Then you apply what you think they mean, but I don’t think you have it right.

Basically, if you have no way to understand what it’s like to be a man like they are describing, then you won’t be able to “hear” them. 

Not saying men who are like they are describing can hear them either, but men who used to be like that (or perhaps who have a father or brother like that) and women who have been with men like that do understand what they are saying.

You do not seem to be getting what they are saying because you are unaware of what men like that are like in a relationship. So it seems to you that they are talking about one thing, but they are talking about something else.

ETA: yes, we women are sometimes unaware and unable to empathize with what it’s like to be with a woman who is certain ways also. It’s built in to our lack of understanding.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> Casual Observer said:
> 
> 
> > OK, once a week is the most my wife would expect to, well, put up with, all things being equal. By her own choice, it might be once a month. We came to terms with things some time ago, but it's only recent that she's understood more sex is better for "us" not just me. She knows my feelings. She did not understand the emotional connection. It's really strange but women think guys are into sex purely for the physical act, and bam, it's over. She's always understood that I'm in a better mood, do more things around the house, and in general a much nicer person when there's regular sex. And yet could not make the connection that she benefits greatly from that and even if sex doesn't do anything wonderful for her in a physical sense, that there should be joy for her, in her mind, doing something that brings us closer together and better.
> ...


Yea, she must be wore out. No wonder its so infrequent (chaffing).


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Dude, your old lady isn't into 'it' or you. She is old so it maybe menopause or she may not find you very appealing. You can always join a gym and see what that does for you. Or you can just go onto pornhub and take care of things yourself. The women are younger and bouncier and they are always very enthusiastic. I mean wrinkled old lady or bouncy babes? As an incentive, there is no talking or arguing needed.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> This happens from time to time.
> 
> I have a great marriage, plenty of sex. Never been wronged by a woman.
> 
> ...


It's not lack of empathy, believe it or not. I feel quite bad for guys who have been raised with or accept an ethos that being a Good Guy gets you ahead in life. If someone was asked as a teen, what do you stand for? What is important in your life long term? Where do you want to be? If you said I want a nice home life, married and kids, whatever adult(s) is around would be nodding their heads like yah. If you said I want a nice home life copious amounts of sex, those same adults would be not best pleased. I was sitting in a parent group at the high school which was organized to discuss issues facing teens. (There was a lot of great info on drug risk which was new to me. I thought I knew more than I did!) Eventually the topic of teen sex came up. Parents of boys (except me) were all focused on how to keep them from being distracted by girls and how to get them to avoid sex and sexual thoughts. When I said, well, boys (and girls too if you want to know the truth) want to have sex and rightly so. What is a parent to do to help them understand channeling that energy, you could have sliced the air with the evil vibes coming at me. Good Boys and Girls don't feel sexual until they are 30 and married, I guess. I think all these parents forgot about being teens themselves.

So these gents walk the right road. Get married. And find themselves tethered to someone? a situation? that Is Not what they were told was the reality of marriage. And it sucks. Hard.

But that does not change the reality. When you think of the things you stand for. What do you do when they are challenged? Let's say, for example, you deserve a promotion at work. But your boss is a jerk. Do you go to your boss and say, dude, I really deserve a promotion. You might. Once. And when that is not forthcoming, you do something else. WHATEVER the boss' reason, no one would advocate continuing to beat the boss over the head with conversations. You might attempt to understand the obstacles for a bit.

The thing is, hanging around and being a Good Guy won't work to get what is wanted. It just won't. The focus on blame detaches the person from solutions. Your wife has bought a different ethos of marriage. Add that sucks. And/or there are any of a zillion reasons, situations, entire marriage and life contexts that drive it. But saying over and over, I want more sex, better sex... WHY???!!!?? Will Not Work. If your kid were being bullied, and you continually asked the bully to stop. Asked the bully why they were doing it, but never DID anything, one might conclude that your child not being bullied is not really one of your core values, something truly important to you.

By the time people come here with a lack of sex problem, its been years in the developing, decades even. You wish you could drag them back to when it first started and say DUUUDE is this the life you want? But he made all the Right choice. Kids first. I made a vow. Etcetera. 

My husband is very disorganized. I often wonder if he wouldn't be happier as a vagabond, travelling in a van with nothing but where the next meal is coming from to worry about. But that is not the life we live. I have tried over the years to GET him to use habits and systems to do the things that family life requires. And he does. And he will. For a while. But it is not part of who he is. So it falls to the wayside eventually. I pulled my hair out trying to get him to be something else. But he isn't. I had to accept that he never will be. I either take on the lion's share of the practical (and then some), and enjoy the best parts of him, or get out. Two very obvious choices. I could keep beating him over the head with how wrong it is. But It Won't Work.

So some of these sexless dudes. They think they are un-f-able. Maybe they are. By HER. Water under the bridge? I don't know. But the things I know are, placing blame will only engender bitterness. Whether placing blame entirely on oneself, or on ones wife. Or really worrying about blame at all. How about standing up for oneself and saying sex IS important to me. It is core to me, and without it, I am OUT. The truth is, many of the men who come here want a softer, easier solution. One that gets them everything they want, 100% of their retirement, the picket fence and kids. AND a wife who is sexy in the bedroom. But sorry, Chuck, you can't have that. And just placing more reasons to be bitter about their wives, if they had Just Said. Do you really think that just saying would make a difference compared to the actions of a decade or two?

If women came on here with how to I get my husband to stop pestering me for sex, I would have different words. Words that woman would never hear as she was deluged with what a horrible and unloving person she is for denying her husband. Words that have elements of that same message in them. About how she can be the one to bridge a building gap of resentment and pain to a more truly intimate relationship. But those posts don't come. And on the rate occasion that they do, the poster is driven off.

Those are my thoughts.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NS is absolutely correct. You only get one real vote in life. You get to vote with your feet. If you are not getting enough sex in your relationship, and you ask for more, and you don't get more, then vote with your feet and leave. If you vote with your feet and stay, you are being cruel to both of you.

Yes, you (me) may desperately want an easier solution that does not require financial sacrifice, sacrificing time with the kids, etc. But life sucks and then you die. So leave or accept. Do not stay and complain.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> I just don't feel guilty about setting boundaries a fair bit farther away from her than they were at the start of our marriage. And zealously defending against any attempt on her part to get me to move closer to her. I love her. I like her. But I don't trust her. Or I should say, I don't trust her PTSD not to arise if I appear to be moving closer. And for me, the benefit of moving closer is not worth the cost of dealing with more PTSD.


I totally get this. When you have had your hands slapped ad finitum for reaching out, you simply CANNOT trust that it won't be slapped again. The idea that one should just lay in the middle of the street indefinitely is not feasible. 

When I was 3 or 4, we got a dog that grew to be very big. He was playful but, of course, bigger than I was. I was dragging a rope around the yard, running in a big circle, and he was chasing it and pouncing. I tripped, and he ran right over me in his excitement. I of course started wailing, which excited him more. About the time I would get upright again, he'd come back around and knock me over again. After a few times, I stopped trying to stand up and just curled up and crying while he kept running over and over. I learned that standing up would only mean getting knocked down.

If someone had implied I was silly or bad for not continuing to stand up....yeah, no.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> NS is absolutely correct. You only get one real vote in life. You get to vote with your feet. If you are not getting enough sex in your relationship, and you ask for more, and you don't get more, then vote with your feet and leave. If you vote with your feet and stay, you are being cruel to both of you.


The sad and further sucky thing is that if that willingness was clear after decades of other habits/routines/expectations... whatever, it might have actually worked to get the desire met.



> Yes, you (me) may desperately want an easier solution that does not require financial sacrifice, sacrificing time with the kids, etc. But life sucks and then you die. So leave or accept. Do not stay and complain.


Sure does not seem healthy to me.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> How about standing up for oneself and saying sex IS important to me. It is core to me, and without it, I am OUT.


That can be difficult to do without having it sound like a threat to divorce but still sound like you really mean it.

"No, I don't want a divorce, but it could happen. Unless things change we're simply not going to be able to stay together, and you know it too."

We weren't sexless but after the hormones left the building sex didn't "just happen" like it used. We both had a hard time adjusting to that and it caused problems and friction, in the bedroom and out of it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CharlieParker said:


> That can be difficult to do without having it sound like a threat to divorce but still sound like you really mean it.


So. You want to sound like you really mean it. Without meaning it? Like, maybe, hoping, praying for that softer way?

ETA: It IS a threat to divorce. Not goal A. But there it is.



> "No, I don't want a divorce, but it *could *happen. Unless things change we're simply not going to be able to stay together, and you know it too."


That was darned close to what my DH said. This is decades ago. But he did not say could happen. He said will happen.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> NS is absolutely correct. You only get one real vote in life. You get to vote with your feet. If you are not getting enough sex in your relationship, and you ask for more, and you don't get more, then vote with your feet and leave. If you vote with your feet and stay, you are being cruel to both of you.
> 
> Yes, you (me) may desperately want an easier solution that does not require financial sacrifice, sacrificing time with the kids, etc. But life sucks and then you die. So leave or accept. Do not stay and complain.


You can stay and complain. Just like some spouses stay and complain about a spouse who won’t hold down a job or who has an addiction. It’s just that doing so will only continue to make you unhappier. In your case, I know you have chosen your fate.

In the case of mismatched desire where the man is (seemingly) the higher drive partner, I think one big part of the problem is that both men and women are generally unaware when they get married that over time, men’s desire tends to remain high but women’s desire wanes in an LTR. And that this fact is going to become present in their relationship and that they will both need to be prepared to deal with it.

Unfortunately, when the man starts noticing the lack of desire from his wife, he does very unsexy things in response.

The woman bears some responsibility here, but generally she doesn’t know why her desire has dissipated other than that she can see he is being unsexy. What is she supposed to say? “Um, you’re telling me you want more sex, but you are unsexy. Just because you still think I’m sexy, doesn’t mean I feel the same.”

I don’t know if the shelf life of a woman’s desire in an LTR is a biological thing or a thing that happens because husbands tend to become unsexy. It very well could be biological, and if it is, then what is she supposed to do about it? Maybe as we are told constantly that men are wired to spread their seed far and wide, maybe women are wired to only find men sexy for 3 years at a time. That is certainly what the statistics seem to tell us.

So ignorant of these statistics, young men and women fall in love, both thinking their high desire for each other will remain the same and become stronger. Neither of them realize the shelf life of her desire has an end date coming soon, and in order to circumvent this certain steps will have to be taken. Without that information, they do the usual ignoring of each other’s needs, taking each other for granted, being annoyed with toothpaste on the counters, they have 3 kids.....oops, no more sex. His desire remains high, hers tanks.

Maybe the upcoming generations will be armed with this knowledge and will know they either need to move on after 3 years, or they need to find out how she can keep seeing him as sexy over time. And while the women will have to be able to communicate what is sexy to them, the men will need to be able to do much more than communicate.

It may seem unfair, but hey it’s how we are wired. Be sexy forevermore or we won’t be hot for you. That’s our wiring. For men it seems to be continue being the woman I love and I’ll be hot for you forevermore. Which seems sweet and all that. But it’s also no struggle for them. They are wired to “want her” regardless of time passing (if we believe all the rest, then we also understand men are wired to “want any her”). 

For myself, I am HD, and my drive has remained very high for decades at a time. But that was with a man who was sexy foevermore. At one time I was trying to explain what made him so solidly sexy like that, to maybe help others see what it could look like. Some enjoyed my tales, others felt I was describing something too difficult to achieve or that “if she doesn’t want me how I am then forget it”.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> So. You want to sound like you really mean it. Without meaning it? Like, maybe, hoping, praying for that softer way?
> 
> ETA: It IS a threat to divorce. Not goal A. But there it is.
> 
> ...


Yes, I think I said will to. Right not a goal, but it is going to happen. I didn't want it to sound like "F me or else", because I don't think that would work, plus it's kinda icky.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CharlieParker said:


> Yes, I think I said will to. Right not a goal, but it is going to happen. I didn't want it to sound like "F me or else", because I don't think that would work, plus it's kinda icky.


Yup. And it is really a whole lot different than I don't except a marriage devoid of sexuality....


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Yup. And it is really a whole lot different than I don't except a marriage devoid of sexuality....


And if you actually would never divorce, then you don’t have any bargaining chip. So it’s pointless to say it if is isn’t true.

That’s where “I won’t accept” comes in and people hope it will work. But it doesn’t. Because what you will accept is what you are accepting.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> And if you actually would never divorce, then you don’t have any bargaining chip. So it’s pointless to say it if is isn’t true.


I think it is worse than pointless. I think it sets the stage and the attitude that the person DOESN'T mean what they say. That they DON'T stand for what they believe in. And respect begins the slow and steady spiral down into the tank. 



> That’s where “I won’t accept” comes in and people hope it will work. But it doesn’t. Because what you will accept is what you are accepting.


Ayuh. 

People think of acting direct in this way is somehow Unnice or unloving. It isn't. Loving does not mean giving up yourself in order to please someone else. That is a dysfunctional view of loving, in my opinion. And if the person cannot accept who you are, then they cannot love you back properly! That goes for a man who views sexuality as important. And for a woman who does not.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> For myself, I am HD, and my drive has remained very high for decades at a time. But that was with a man who was sexy foevermore. At one time I was trying to explain what made him so solidly sexy like that, to maybe help others see what it could look like. Some enjoyed my tales, others felt I was describing something too difficult to achieve or that “if she doesn’t want me how I am then forget it”.


For me, it would definitely be too difficult to achieve. I used to exercise regularly and never got bigger muscles or the inverted vee shape. I was functionally quite strong (I could pull tent stakes out of the ground that my much larger buddy with the personal trainer couldn't budge, push my riding mower up steep inclines, etc), but not bulky or ripped. For me, to look hotter would have required hours and hours of gym time and probably some supplements. And cutting all sweets out of my diet. And even then I would never be taller or well endowed. I would honestly rather be miserable than have to go to that much effort for her to find me attractive. Which is unmistakable and sends her respect into the toilet. Or maybe what it does is send the distinct message that sex with her isn't worth all that effort. Which is not all that flattering to her. And reinforces her thought / feeling that sex with her isn't as important to me as I claim.

I do think women's desire generally dissipates in long term relationships. And I think most women do not find the median / average man attractive. That puts the typical guy who wants regular sex as part of a long-term marriage in a difficult position. But it is what it is.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> For me, it would definitely be too difficult to achieve. I used to exercise regularly and never got bigger muscles or the inverted vee shape. I was functionally quite strong (I could pull tent stakes out of the ground that my much larger buddy with the personal trainer couldn't budge, push my riding mower up steep inclines, etc), but not bulky or ripped. For me, to look hotter would have required hours and hours of gym time and probably some supplements. And cutting all sweets out of my diet. And even then I would never be taller or well endowed. I would honestly rather be miserable than have to go to that much effort for her to find me attractive. Which is unmistakable and sends her respect into the toilet. Or maybe what it does is send the distinct message that sex with her isn't worth all that effort. Which is not all that flattering to her. And reinforces her thought / feeling that sex with her isn't as important to me as I claim.
> 
> I do think women's desire generally dissipates in long term relationships. And I think most women do not find the median / average man attractive. That puts the typical guy who wants regular sex as part of a long-term marriage in a difficult position. But it is what it is.


I wonder if what FW meant when she said "what that looked like" had anything to do with looks. For myself, I see no reason to think looks play a very big part in long term attraction or really attraction in general. It's relative. I mean, did the guy you married get radically LESS good looking? If there was sex before, and now there isn't, maybe it isn't that. ALthough that does not sound like your situation. I think the gym can have great benefits when it feels to oneself that they look and feel good. If they look ripped, that is icing on the cake. But lord it is not going to do much if it makes you feel worse!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Holdingontoit said:
> 
> 
> > For me, it would definitely be too difficult to achieve. I used to exercise regularly and never got bigger muscles or the inverted vee shape. I was functionally quite strong (I could pull tent stakes out of the ground that my much larger buddy with the personal trainer couldn't budge, push my riding mower up steep inclines, etc), but not bulky or ripped. For me, to look hotter would have required hours and hours of gym time and probably some supplements. And cutting all sweets out of my diet. And even then I would never be taller or well endowed. I would honestly rather be miserable than have to go to that much effort for her to find me attractive. Which is unmistakable and sends her respect into the toilet. Or maybe what it does is send the distinct message that sex with her isn't worth all that effort. Which is not all that flattering to her. And reinforces her thought / feeling that sex with her isn't as important to me as I claim.
> ...


I do place a high value on looks, but what looks good to me may not look good to others. So it’s kind of hard for guys to know what we are talking about anyway since there is so much variation.

But yes, to me the bod really matters, and dad bods don’t cut it.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I mean, did the guy you married get radically LESS good looking? If there was sex before, and now there isn't, maybe it isn't that.


The lack of desire is not because his looks changed. She never found him sexually attractive. But she saw him as an excellent provider and co-parent. So she found it tolerable to have sex with him. The sex was "good" for her because it brought her closer to her goal. Once she got the ring and the babies, it became harder for her to overcome her lack of underlying physical attraction. The sex wasn't as good for her because it no longer brought her anything she did not already have.

Not saying this is always conscious. Not saying all these women are pulling intentional bait and switch. Just saying that feelings tends to change when the power dynamic changes. My wife is by every indication more in love with me and more attracted to me today than she was when we first got married. And I was much "nicer" to her back then. Now that I have withdrawn from being such a puppy dog, she treats me better even though I treat her less well. She has to "earn" my time and attention. And she seems to have convinced herself that she loves me more despite having to put out much more effort to receive less in return.

If this "love and sex" stuff were easy or straightforward, we wouldn't need this forum!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> The lack of desire is not because his looks changed. She never found him sexually attractive. But she saw him as an excellent provider and co-parent. So she found it tolerable to have sex with him. The sex was "good" for her because it brought her closer to her goal. Once she got the ring and the babies, it became harder for her to overcome her lack of underlying physical attraction. The sex wasn't as good for her because it no longer brought her anything she did not already have.
> 
> Not saying this is always conscious. Not saying all these women are pulling intentional bait and switch. Just saying that feelings tends to change when the power dynamic changes. My wife is by every indication more in love with me and more attracted to me today than she was when we first got married. And I was much "nicer" to her back then. Now that I have withdrawn from being such a puppy dog, she treats me better even though I treat her less well. She has to "earn" my time and attention. And she seems to have convinced herself that she loves me more despite having to put out much more effort to receive less in return.
> 
> If this "love and sex" stuff were easy or straightforward, we wouldn't need this forum!


Sounds like a fun marriage.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Sounds like a fun marriage.


As I have said many times, my participation on this forum is not aimed at improving my marriage. It is to set a shining example of exactly what a man should NOT do.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> . I hear healthy active males in those 55+ communities get a ton of action.
> 
> .


Oh really?????

I just turned 55 a little while ago. What is the address if this community????? :-D


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Oh really?????
> 
> I just turned 55 a little while ago. What is the address if this community????? :-D


The Villages, northwest of Orlando, Florida.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CharlieParker said:


> Yes, I think I said will to. Right not a goal, but it is going to happen. I didn't want it to sound like "F me or else", because I don't think that would work, plus it's kinda icky.


Yah. But.  The way my husband put it was not f me or else. It was, I did not enter a marriage planning it to be sexless or even lacking in good sex. I will not live my life in that kind of marriage. I want an awesome sex life. I want it WITH YOU. I will do what it takes to achieve that. But I will not go on for years without a healthy sex life. That would end our marriage.

ETA merely f'ing him would have been inadequate a solution, a distraction from the REAL goal, an engaged and engaging sex life.


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## leon2100 (May 13, 2015)

i'm 77 wife is 75... married 54 yrs … been having sex for over 55 years. Sex is not better or worse at this age... it's just different. Twice a week... lots of lub and a good clit vibrator. Life is great!!


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

At 55, I would say my sex drive has become less. Used to desire sex almost every day (up to age 30 or so). Then desire dropped to 3-5 days a week (age 30-45). Now, I am pretty happy with 1 - 2 times a week. Good thing about my sex drive dropping is that now my wife and I are more closely matched in that regard. I might have desired more sex when younger, but it wasn't always happening.

I have some buddies that are about 65. They report the same thing. They are down to 1-2 times a month and they are OK with that.


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## leon2100 (May 13, 2015)

I chuckle at those who don’t believe those of us over 60 (77 & 75) are still having great sex. However, it is my perception that many in their 20s and 30s won’t be having sex when they get to your 60s. They're just to damn fat and lazy.

I’ve never witness so many obese 20 – 30 years old’s as I do today. I’m not talking about fat people, but grossly obese!! This obesity, for many will lead to diabetes, heart disease, arthritic joints, reduced flexibility etc. But don’t worry… your good doctor will have a pill for your “disease.” But those drugs lead to all kinds of sex problems for both men and women.

Good health isn’t a given. If you have it, don’t abuse it. Most of us can thank our parents for good health from their good genes. Some health problems can’t be prevented, but for the self imposed obese who go out in public in only sweat pants, you better enjoy the sex in your 20s and 30s cause I doubt you’ll be doing it even in your 60s.


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## Ms. Hawaii (Mar 28, 2018)

leon2100 said:


> i'm 77 wife is 75... married 54 yrs … been having sex for over 55 years. Sex is not better or worse at this age... it's just different. Twice a week... lots of lub and a good clit vibrator. Life is great!!




You can still have sex in your 70s? Wow I had no idea lol!


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

At my bachelor party, my wife’s grandfather (around 71 at the time) joined us at the strip club. We kept putting dollars in front of him with the strippers and buying him lap dances. As we were leaving, he said that he’d popped a Viagra and his wife was waiting for him. LOL

BTW, I hope to retire in The Villages! Remember, no glove no love!


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Ms. Hawaii said:


> Wow people still have sex in their 60s??


I turn 60 in November. And I sure hope so!!!!


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