# Starting to pull back



## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

I had a conversation with the beau last night, in regards to being cancelled on on Valentine’s Day. Long story, short: he didn’t have his daughter that week, so we made dinner plans which I got way too excited about. Daughter got upset, so he made plans with her and her sister, then cancelled on me with the thoughts that I wouldn’t think it was a big deal. It was, and it hurts, and it made me realize that this relationship means way more to me than it does to him, and so now I need to take the steps of pulling back a bit. How does one do that without resentment and going to the extreme of pulling back too much?


Valentine’s Day has always been kind of a painful day for me, and certainly nothing worth celebrating, so when I noted that he was kid-free that week (yay), and that was not only down to go out for a nice supper, but he’d been the one to suggest it (double yay), I was over the moon. I asked him last night if he had considered that I would have been more than happy to alter our plans and do a family dinner rather than a couple’s dinner, and the answer was no, he hadn’t considered that. I’m mostly upset that I wasn’t considered past the thought of, “oh, she won’t mind”. It makes me feel really unimportant, and I’m pretty upset about this realization. I just wish I’d have been considered, but I guess he’s not as considerate as I had thought. Am I making too big a deal out of this?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm not a big "holiday" person, so I don't get too excited - or too disappointed - about much of anything related to Valentine's Day. That said, I would still be upset about my guy canceling plans with me without discussion, regardless of what day those plans were for. 

You say this made you feel unimportant. Is this a one-off instance of him being clueless, or does it fit a pattern of actions that leave you feeling like you're unimportant to him?

I'm not saying he's wrong to put his children first. That's an admirable thing for a parent to do. But if this is an ongoing pattern of behavior that leaves you feeling like you're not being considered, then it might mean that you two simply aren't compatible. He might just not be able to offer you the level of consideration you want from a partner, either in general or because he has other primary commitments right now. It may just be that you aren't _both_ at a point in your lives to be able to build a relationship that's going to work for both of you.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

When a person shows you who they are, believe them. He has shown you that he doesn't consider you important enough to even consult about the cancellation of plans he initiated. He lets his daughter call the shots. Welcome to the rest of your relationship with this guy.

I think it's kind of creepy that kids expect their parents to be with them on Valentine's day. I don't understand why parents encourage this.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Ursula, I wonder if you can relate to this sentiment... typically when I feel annoyed or upset with an interaction, is usually when I have not presented myself in a congruent way. When I catch myself with that feeling, I try to consider what is bothering me about it and what I could do differently. This is usually about what, or how, I have communicated something (or sometimes, not communicated). The intention then, is not about changing an outcome, but instead learning more about how to get right with myself. 

So then, the flip side to this is that when I have responded with _congruence_, through communication and/or actions, I feel more grounded within myself and less swayed by external influences. And from that place, I am more open, confident, and aligned with what I'm about. The outcomes of an event may not change, but it's incredibly freeing to realize there's a choice (mentally/emotionally) with how we navigate them. These choices and experiences occur multiple times throughout our day with various interactions, so we're constantly encountering these opportunities to try out different ways of being. It's a constant, evolving cultivation of self.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

You are not making too big a deal out of it. He was very inconsiderate of you to make those changes without talking to you first. You are not demanding that he put you over his kids. Quite honestly, he owes you a true apology.

This biggest thing at this point is to determine if this was a one off (hey we all make mistakes, especially when it come to our kids) or a pattern. If the later, you might have to evaluate your relationships with him. Not your love. It's possible to love someone and not be compatible.

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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

His daughter and family come first. Now you know. It seems to me you two are a bit incompatible personality-wise.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Ursula said:


> I had a conversation with the beau last night, in regards to being cancelled on on Valentine’s Day. Long story, short: he didn’t have his daughter that week, so we made dinner plans which I got way too excited about. Daughter got upset, so he made plans with her and her sister, then cancelled on me with the thoughts that I wouldn’t think it was a big deal. It was, and it hurts, and it made me realize that this relationship means way more to me than it does to him, and so now I need to take the steps of pulling back a bit. How does one do that without resentment and going to the extreme of pulling back too much?
> 
> 
> Valentine’s Day has always been kind of a painful day for me, and certainly nothing worth celebrating, so when I noted that he was kid-free that week (yay), and that was not only down to go out for a nice supper, but he’d been the one to suggest it (double yay), I was over the moon. *I asked him last night if he had considered that I would have been more than happy to alter our plans and do a family dinner rather than a couple’s dinner, and the answer was no, he hadn’t considered that. I’m mostly upset that I wasn’t considered past the thought of, “oh, she won’t mind”. It makes me feel really unimportant, and I’m pretty upset about this realization. I just wish I’d have been considered,* but I guess he’s not as considerate as I had thought. Am I making too big a deal out of this?


Does he have any explanation of why he did not consider you? Does he think your relationship is more casual at this point? Or maybe he feels really comfortable with you, is that possible? I can think of a few reasons why a man would do this, but I don't know anything about your relationship so I can't say much about why he did.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Hey @Rowan, no, this isn’t a one-off thing. Along the way, there have been a few situations where he’s needed to cancel/reschedule. He has always been sorry to do so, and I’ve always been understanding because he’s a Dad with Dad-priorities, too. I would also say that feeling like a little less or a priority has always kind of been a thing. Example: when we’re together, and his cell phone gets a notification, he’s on it immediately most of the time, seeing what’s up or responding to a text. So, when I text him, I know he sees it right away, but he chooses not to reply sometimes for many hours. You aren’t wrong when you suggest that we might not be compatible at this time though. Something to chew on for now.
@Blondilocks, yeah, I know he’s showing me who he is, and it’s something that I’m going to monitor closely. He said last night that he knows he has to put his foot down with his youngest. I thought it was a little strange that she was so desperate to spend what’s more of a romantic day with her Dad. However, she probably just doesn’t want him to spend it with me.

Here’s something too though: recently, something happened with his youngest daughter, and he doesn’t want to tell me yet, and she doesn’t want me to know either. He’s been highly stressed out about this, too. There were 2 instances where both his Mom and his oldest daughter started to tell me, and I stopped them, stating that beau and daughter didn’t want me to know at this time. His oldest let a little too much slip, and so I now know that the police were involved. I told beau this, because I wanted him to know what I was told so that he wouldn’t be surprised later (things have a way of being found out). He let me know then that his oldest brother was also involved and that he wouldn’t be speaking to him for a very, very long time. My first thought: some kind of assault. Beau has confirmed that this absolutely ISN’T the case, which is a relief. SO, all that being said is a reason why beau wants to keep his youngest close and why he tends to really cater to her, which I understand to a point, but can’t understand fully because I really don’t know what’s going on. I do know that his youngest is now in therapy.


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## Rushmore410 (Oct 4, 2017)

Sometimes even if your SO doesn't make you choose between you or the kids it can feel that way. I don't know how long he has been a single dad or how long you have dated but maybe chalk this up as a stupid mistake. If you approach this with kindness and understanding he will be more likely to hear you and get that he screwed up.

He definitely owes you an apology and I don't write this toet him off the hook. I know as a single father I did everything for my girls and never wanted them to feel less then the most important thing in my life. 

I am remarried now and still struggle but am much better about balance in our lives. 

I hope this helps. Remember it most likely was totally about his insecurities and not anything to do with how he cares about you.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> When a person shows you who they are, believe them. He has shown you that he doesn't consider you important enough to even consult about the cancellation of plans he initiated. He lets his daughter call the shots. Welcome to the rest of your relationship with this guy.
> 
> I think it's kind of creepy that kids expect their parents to be with them on Valentine's day. I don't understand why parents encourage this.


Well, I'm totally with Blondilocks on this. 

Ursula, I think you said you have been dating this man for almost a year. You aren't someone he just met. This wasn't an evening your boyfriend usually has the kids, they weren't supposed to be with him on Valentine's Day (it's not like he was blowing them off to have dinner with you). The child didn't say anything about Valentine's Day until she heard YOU were going out to dinner with her father. Cue crying, and him showing her, and you, and the mother of the child-- that because she didn't want him going out to dinner with you, he'd cancel on you and take her instead-- which also included a schedule change with her mother. Add that this is a romantic holiday. It's not like it was her dad's birthday or Christmas or Thanksgiving or something. It's a couples holiday!

This is bad news. There are a few different ways this man could have handled the situation. That he chose this way, after dating you for so long, and that it's not the first time these kinds of things have happened do not bode well. Honestly, I'd be on my way out. Too much going on for this to be a healthy relationship for you anytime soon. 

Note: this is my opinion as a divorced mother who had children that age after divorce. I DO know what it's like.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Adding: I hope you cancel the flowers you were going to have delivered to him.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

@heartsbeating, yes I relate to that, and I think that’s partly what happened. When he mentioned dinner out a week ago, I showed genuine surprise and excitement, but did mention that I don’t usually do anything for V-day. Mostly, it’s because it’s generally been a depressing/painful day for me, and there’s no reason to celebrate that. I didn’t actually SAY that though. However, what he took out of that conversation wasn’t my excitement; it was my saying that I don’t usually do anything for that day, which is why he thought that cancelling wouldn’t be a big deal. So, it’s really both of our faults: me for not communicating well enough; him for not hearing my excitement.
@maquiscat, it’s not a one-off; this has happened before, just not on a special day. I do feel love for him, but have no idea how he feels about me, as we haven’t communicated that at this point. But yes, we simply may be incompatible.
@In Absentia, yes his daughter comes first, and I actually commend him for that. However, if he wants to be in a relationship, he needs to put that first every once in awhile too. Not all the time; that’s not what I’m asking for. I just simply want to be a consideration, and I want US as a couple to be a priority sometimes.
@leftfield, yes, when he suggested we go out for supper that evening, I showed surprise and excitement about the idea, but did mention that I haven’t celebrated that day for a long time. He remembered the latter part, and that’s the reason why he didn’t think it would be a big deal to me. Given your choices, I’d guess that he thinks our relationship is more casual than I think it is at this point. 
@Rushmore410, I understand what you’re saying, and I hope that he doesn’t feel that way. He’s been a single Dad for almost 2 years now, and we’ve dated for almost a year. When we talked last night, one thing he said is that he usually makes stupid decisions/mistakes. I approached the subject in an upset manner, but not with my guns-a-blazing. He gets that he messed up, and apologized numerous times to me. We were both crying on the phone last night, but I’m not sure he was upset about us; he started crying when talking about his youngest daughter. He said that things will get better, and that he has to put his foot down with his youngest. I just wish he would do that sometimes. Honestly, I do think this was just a stupid and innocent mistake on his part, and he really had no clue as to how this would affect me. He knows now though, I think and hope.
@Livvie, I do hear you, and your post struck a chord. I know this isn’t great news, and it’s hugely disappointing for me. I think that I think this relationship is way more important to me than it is to him. I’m not going to kick him to the curb just yet; I would like to see how the next month or two play out. I know he’s going through a LOT right now, but that doesn’t mean that he can just blow me off. I would love to know how he views this relationship and the position that I play in his life. I called the florist this morning to cancel the order, but am going to see how tonight goes (we’re seeing each other tonight unless the road conditions totally suck like they did last night. But, tonight will tell the tale of whether or not he gets his flowers on V-day.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Ursula said:


> Here’s something too though: recently, something happened with his youngest daughter, and he doesn’t want to tell me yet, and she doesn’t want me to know either. He’s been highly stressed out about this, too. There were 2 instances where both his Mom and his oldest daughter started to tell me, and I stopped them, stating that beau and daughter didn’t want me to know at this time. His oldest let a little too much slip, and so I now know that the police were involved. I told beau this, because I wanted him to know what I was told so that he wouldn’t be surprised later (things have a way of being found out). He let me know then that his oldest brother was also involved and that he wouldn’t be speaking to him for a very, very long time. My first thought: some kind of assault. Beau has confirmed that this absolutely ISN’T the case, which is a relief. SO, all that being said is a reason why beau wants to keep his youngest close and why he tends to really cater to her, which I understand to a point, but can’t understand fully because I really don’t know what’s going on. I do know that his youngest is now in therapy.


How long have you been dating this guy? 

Within an exclusive and committed relationship, I wouldn't be okay with being so very pointedly excluded from some (apparently) huge family secret. It's one thing to not tell you something that's none of your business. But this has evolved into you having to police _everyone else's _boundaries to keep from finding out something he doesn't want to share with you. For me, the red flag wouldn't be the desire for family privacy, but the extravagantly dramatic lengths you are being asked to go to in order to maintain that family privacy _for_ him/them. Is there always this much drama with this guy?


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Rowan said:


> How long have you been dating this guy?
> 
> Within an exclusive and committed relationship, I wouldn't be okay with being so very pointedly excluded from some (apparently) huge family secret. It's one thing to not tell you something that's none of your business. But this has evolved into you having to police _everyone else's _boundaries to keep from finding out something he doesn't want to share with you. For me, the red flag wouldn't be the desire for family privacy, but the extravagantly dramatic lengths you are being asked to go to in order to maintain that family privacy _for_ him/them. Is there always this much drama with this guy?


Rowan, we just passed 11 months, so not a short time, but not a long time in the grand scheme of things. His daughter was adamant that I not know what's going on, and he doesn't want to lie to her, so if she asks him if he's told me, he can honestly say "no" at this point. She's said that if I find out, she doesn't want to see me again. There's not usually a ton of drama no, but his divorce and the woman he's divorcing are quite the thing (heavy drinking, drugs, a divorce that's stalled). I'm not OK with being excluded from this secret, especially since it's obviously something that is dealt with on a daily basis. However, I had wanted to remain in this relationship and continue getting to know his daughters, so I complied. I'm going to have to see how the immediate future will play out at this point though.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

I don't like Valentine's Day, but even I was disappointed reading about your change of plans in the other thread. You are not overreacting at all. You are allowed to be upset and disappointed and you are right to be skeptical. 

He says that he needs to put his foot down and stop letting his daughter call the shots, but he doesn't seem to be doing anything about that. He could tell his daughter that he had plans with you first, cancelling those was his mistake, and that he needs to go back to the original plans but will see them the next day (or whatever). There is nothing wrong with a child learning that A) The world does not revolve around them, and B) That parents make mistakes too and have to clean up their mess. I'm guessing he won't, because he seems like he's all talk, but he does have options here.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

When a lover chooses to ever give way to their blood ties, you realize your own love ties to this person are oxygen poor.

Valentines Day is still a full 'Sunrise to Sunset' period, such that there is room to show respect and love for more than one Dear.

He could accommodate both of you, his daughter and yourself, this day.

He chooses not to. 

Hate him not for his weakness, leave him for his lack of grace.

You give him your most valuable possessions, your time, your love and your flesh, yet he pushes you out of the way when times get complicated?
He is that appeaser, and thou are not one who is appeased properly.

He expects you to be the adult and to be understanding?
And, he does not do this himself? 

He is a pawn, one in the middle, not a real person.

He, nor his loyalties are mature.

I do not see him as a bad person, I see him as a wisp, subject to the winds, a shadow of a man.

He is not available, he is yet taken by his own proclivities and needs.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

So sorry Ursula! This is all adding up to what seems like a dead end. I'm sure he is not going to change his parenting any time soon, and you'll always be last. I know that is just how it is when you are dating a parent, but this case seems even more than most have to deal with. :frown2:


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

No, you're not overreacting. See what tonight brings but please honor yourself by saying what you feel and not glossing over anything. Tell him straight up.

You're SUCH a sweetheart and while you have a great ability to see all sides of an issue, I think you tend to make allowances for others too much. 

Like you, I have no children. I firmly believe that children come first but with the caveat that there's got to be a balance. Easier said than done, I know.

Reminds me of a guy I dated long ago with a young adorable child--very spoiled. I kept store bought pudding in my fridge for her. Her dad said if she ate a good portion of her dinner she could have a pudding cup. She ate none of her dinner, complaining she wanted pudding. He caved and gave her pudding. I was instantly turned off--he catered to her and didn't stick to the rule. 

My example pales in comparison to your bf's daughter's issues (I truly hope she will be ok). But Dad needs to learn that she can't call the shots. You were a casualty and there's a history with this child and I fear this will be the status quo. It'll always be something with this child, I fear.

Good luck tonight. Be true to yourself.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

My opinion? She has attempted (with some success) to dominate your relationship with him from the beginning. I wouldn’t expect that to change unless he decides to let her know she can’t always have her way. This would have been a good time to do that. So, yes, that’s a fail on his part and may be a sign you need to cool the relationship down for awhile (or forever — depending).


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Thanks a bunch, @lucy999, I do plan on being straight up with him. He is a good guy, but he does some really goofy things that don’t sit well with me and those things need to stop. I’m sure I do things he doesn’t like too, and I’d happily accommodate if he’d let me know. You’re right though, I do make a lot of allowances, and I’m nearing the end of that for him, unfortunately. That’s really too bad about your ex’s little girl; kind of makes me wonder if she still wields the control now! And yes, I do hope beau’s youngest is okay, and I hope that I’m informed about what exactly is going on. He’s assured me that I would understand why she’s being so protected now if I knew. It’s obviously a major thing. Thanks for the luck!
@Openminded, it’s to the point where she’s succeeding very well at driving a wedge right between her Dad and I. I also don’t see it changing because him and I have actually had a similar conversation before, and things have yet to change. My mindset has already stepped back a bit with him, and I’m not going to be so readily available to him in the future.

Thanks everyone for all of the thoughts!


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

I have seen many divorced parents who parent from a position of guilt. They try so hard to show their love and loyalty they become blind to all else, and then the power all shifts to the child. If he is unable to set reasonable boundaries he is doing more harm to his kids then good, and the kids will learn to manipulate that to their advantage, as his daughter just did.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Cooper said:


> I have seen many divorced parents who parent from a position of guilt. They try so hard to show their love and loyalty they become blind to all else, and then the power all shifts to the child. If he is unable to set reasonable boundaries he is doing more harm to his kids then good, and the kids will learn to manipulate that to their advantage, as his daughter just did.


Oh Cooper, that’s exactly what he’s doing and has admitted so himself. He feels guilty for leaving the family (kids), and worries that his youngest will grow to hate him. She’ll definitely grow to not want to hang onto her parents anymore, but that’s a natural for teenagers. He has a few years to go for that yet, but I’m not sure we’ll make it to that point!


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## nypsychnurse (Jan 13, 2019)

Been there...done that...
I started dating my ex when his daughter was 20. I had concerns pretty early on as I had dated other dads with daughters, but never had these sorts of things happen until him...
Also worth mentioning that he had a son as well...but his son Never was an issue...
Even my therapist assured me that Dear Daughter would eventually grow up and get a life of her own...
Didn't happen...
I spent more than six years with this man...had an engagement ring on my finger and so did she...but when he blew me off on NYE to entertain her...that was it...His rationale? He couldn't leave her with nothing to do on NYE...
Never again....
Tread very carefully...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Do not send him flowers! Even if he gets on his knees and begs you to be his valentine. That ship has sailed. You do not want to reward bad behavior.

If you think it's bad now, just wait until he is actually divorced. Then the drama will escalate. She'll be mean, little daddy's girl on steroids.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

nypsychnurse said:


> Been there...done that...
> I started dating my ex when his daughter was 20. I had concerns pretty early on as I had dated other dads with daughters, but never had these sorts of things happen until him...
> Also worth mentioning that he had a son as well...but his son Never was an issue...
> Even my therapist assured me that Dear Daughter would eventually grow up and get a life of her own...
> ...


I agree with that. I’ve seen a lot of drama with some men and their daughters (never their sons — just their daughters). I consider that behavior to be a huge red flag because the situation rarely gets better. 

In my experience, Daddy’s Little Girl tends to stay that way no matter what her age is.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> Do not send him flowers! Even if he gets on his knees and begs you to be his valentine. That ship has sailed. You do not want to reward bad behavior.
> 
> If you think it's bad now, just wait until he is actually divorced. Then the drama will escalate. She'll be mean, little daddy's girl on steroids.


Absolutely!


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Ursula said:


> Cooper said:
> 
> 
> > I have seen many divorced parents who parent from a position of guilt. They try so hard to show their love and loyalty they become blind to all else, and then the power all shifts to the child. If he is unable to set reasonable boundaries he is doing more harm to his kids then good, and the kids will learn to manipulate that to their advantage, as his daughter just did.
> ...


Does he share custody? If so, he didn't leave them or the family. What was the reason for the divorce?


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

I'm so sorry for your disappointment. It's so hard when you think you're finally gonna get to be part of the party and then your invitation gets revoked. 

If it were me, I'd cancel the flowers and keep them cancelled. I'd also make myself unavailable for a few dates in the future. Or I'd probably even say yes to one and then cancel so he can see what that feels like. If he asks if you're pulling away tell him the truth, "yes, because it's become painfully obvious to me that I am not as important to you as you are to me, so I'm readjusting things so I won't get hurt by you anymore."

As a fellow parent I can say that he's making a HUGE error in the way he parents this girl. Even if the unthinkable happened and her uncle abused her she still needs to learn to get along in life and follow rules and social norms. She won't learn any of that with her Dad catering to her every whim because I guarantee when she gets out into the real world she'll find it a harsh reality to learn that not everyone will do the same catering as her Dad does. I hope her therapist makes this clear to him at some point. 

In the meantime, *hugs*


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Ursula said:


> I had a conversation with the beau last night, in regards to being cancelled on on Valentine’s Day. Long story, short: he didn’t have his daughter that week, so we made dinner plans which I got way too excited about. Daughter got upset, so he made plans with her and her sister, then cancelled on me with the thoughts that I wouldn’t think it was a big deal. It was, and it hurts, and it made me realize that this relationship means way more to me than it does to him, and so now I need to take the steps of pulling back a bit. How does one do that without resentment and going to the extreme of pulling back too much?
> 
> 
> Valentine’s Day has always been kind of a painful day for me, and certainly nothing worth celebrating, so when I noted that he was kid-free that week (yay), and that was not only down to go out for a nice supper, but he’d been the one to suggest it (double yay), I was over the moon. I asked him last night if he had considered that I would have been more than happy to alter our plans and do a family dinner rather than a couple’s dinner, and the answer was no, he hadn’t considered that. I’m mostly upset that I wasn’t considered past the thought of, “oh, she won’t mind”. It makes me feel really unimportant, and I’m pretty upset about this realization. I just wish I’d have been considered, but I guess he’s not as considerate as I had thought. Am I making too big a deal out of this?


No, especially after you talked to him he's got a problem after he made the date with you. And no your not asking to be before his kids but you had plans and he should have followed through because he has character.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

And don't be that passive aggressive person keep telling him straight out.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

@Livvie, he does share custody, and gets his youngest daughter for one week on, one week off. This is his week off. The reason for the divorce was just serious incompatibility…? I’m not sure how to describe it, but his STBXW drinks heavily and smokes a lot of weed, and I think the breaking point was when she got so drunk in front of the kids on a family vacation that she wasn’t even conscious. Family vacation: his parents, their 3 kids, their spouses and their 6 grandkids.
@notmyjamie, I like the idea of making plans with him and then cancelling. I was feeling okay last night, but things are sitting terrible again today. A few people have said to cancel the flowers, and that’s my immediate reaction. The other side of me wants to still send them A) because it’s a nice gesture that he would appreciate and B) to maybe make him feel a little bit badly for treating me the way he did, and I still acknowledge him and the day. I did get an invite out on Friday with a friend of mine, to go play pool. We’ve been out before, and it’s OK, but the friend is a man, and I don’t know how I feel about going to shoot pool with another dude on Valentine’s Day. I should be with my main squeeze, not another man.

Beau came over last night, and we had a good talk. He is genuinely sorry for his actions, and wishes that he could make things better. I told him that there was still things he could do to make that happen. I cried quite a bit, and he should be well aware of just how much this hurt me. One thing I did ask was if he’d have to ask his kids if I could join them for supper. It took a few seconds of realization on his part, but he then invited me along. I told him that I would let him know. But, I feel like I invited myself along, and as much I I’d love to be there simply to show his youngest that I’m not going anywhere, I won’t be going. He should have brains enough to have included me without heavy prompting. I did ask him what I meant to him, which he took as me wanting to hear those 3 little words, which he’s not ready to say. I actually just wanted to hear that I was an important person in his life. Apparently, I’m the kindest person he’s ever met, and I’m very important to him. It was nice to hear, although I don’t quite believe it at this point. I need to see some actions that match those words, and he has a very short amount of time to show me that before he can be single again.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Well. I'm imploring you to CANCEL the flowers to him. Do not send flowers to a man who cancels Valentine's plans the way he did. The flowers would be showing him in a very concrete way that he can treat you like that and you are STILL overly sweet to him. Take it from someone older than you, it's not a good idea. Not a good dynamic.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Chiming in again to worry a bit that after 11 months he can't yet say he loves you. 

How much time do you spend with him a week? Do you do sleep overs? Are you having a sexual relationship with him? Have you ever gone away together?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I agree with not sending the flowers.

But also, please don't accept plans in the future just to cancel them - that's childish/immature.

Regardless of his behavior, you can do the right thing without the pettiness.

And I'm very sorry he chose to treat you this way. 




Livvie said:


> Well. I'm imploring you to CANCEL the flowers to him. Do not send flowers to a man who cancels Valentine's plans the way he did. The flowers would be showing him in a very concrete way that he can treat you like that and you are STILL overly sweet to him. Take it from someone older than you, it's not a good idea. Not a good dynamic.


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## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

I ended my last relationship due to the same type of thing.... except her daughter was 20 yrs old!

I decided she must not be that into me. My relationship was only 4 months old, though


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Livvie said:


> Chiming in again to worry a bit that after 11 months he can't yet say he loves you.
> 
> How much time do you spend with him a week? Do you do sleep overs? Are you having a sexual relationship with him? Have you ever gone away together?


Yeah, I’m well aware that he’s a slow mover, and we all operate at different paces, but I’d think he’d feel some love for me at this point. He mentioned that his life isn’t where he wants it to be to be where HE wants to be. But, that would require that the matrimonial home sells and divorce papers are signed. I told him last night that that could be a few years yet, and he agreed.

As to your questions, we see each other for sure twice a week on his off weeks, but since the new year, he’s been suggesting we spend more time together, so it’s been a little more for the past couple months. We do sleepovers every second weekend, and we are in a sexual relationship. We’ve never gone away together, but have talked a few times about taking a weekend trip to the mountains this spring or summer. This is all I’ll be able to manage because the last few months have been pretty travel-heavy for me. I had gone to Europe for 3 weeks with one of my oldest girlfriends, to walk part of the el Camino de Santiago, and my sister and I went to Mexico in mid-January for a week. So, I’ve been away a lot! What I wouldn’t give to be back on the Camino, walking, and clearing my head!


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Ursula said:


> I had a conversation with the beau last night, in regards to being cancelled on on Valentine’s Day. Long story, short: he didn’t have his daughter that week, so we made dinner plans which I got way too excited about. Daughter got upset, so he made plans with her and her sister, then cancelled on me with the thoughts that I wouldn’t think it was a big deal. It was, and it hurts, and it made me realize that this relationship means way more to me than it does to him, and so now I need to take the steps of pulling back a bit. How does one do that without resentment and going to the extreme of pulling back too much?
> 
> 
> Valentine’s Day has always been kind of a painful day for me, and *certainly nothing worth celebrating,* so when I noted that he was kid-free that week (yay), and that was not only down to go out for a nice supper, but he’d been the one to suggest it (double yay), I was over the moon. I asked him last night if he had considered that I would have been more than happy to alter our plans and do a family dinner rather than a couple’s dinner, and the answer was no, he hadn’t considered that. I’m mostly upset that I wasn’t considered past the thought of, *“oh, she won’t mind”.* It makes me feel really unimportant, and I’m pretty upset about this realization. I just wish I’d have been considered, but I guess he’s not as considerate as I had thought. Am I making too big a deal out of this?


Did you happen to say things that convinced him you thought it was "nothing worth celebrating", i.e. no big deal? If so, might he rationally have thought you "would not mind"?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Regardless of what the day means to Ursula, they made plans together, which he then arbitrarily changed in order to accommodate his child.

Other than his daughter's death or a trip to the ER, there really is no scenario where his behavior is acceptable.



SpinyNorman said:


> Did you happen to say things that convinced him you thought it was "nothing worth celebrating", i.e. no big deal? If so, might he rationally have thought you "would not mind"?


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

SpinyNorman said:


> Did you happen to say things that convinced him you thought it was "nothing worth celebrating", i.e. no big deal? If so, might he rationally have thought you "would not mind"?


Yes, Spiny, that's exactly what had happened. I had told him that i hadn’t celebrated or made a big deal of V-day in many years , but that I’d be happy to go to dinner. What he got out of that is that it wasn’t a big deal to me, not that I was thrilled to go out with him. So it’s not all his fault, but he still could have included me without heavy prompting from me.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

*Flowers are cancelled!!! *​


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Ursula said:


> *Flowers are cancelled!!! *​


Love it!!!


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Ursula said:


> *Flowers are cancelled!!! *​


One more time Love it!!!


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

Maybe making heavy relationship demands on a married not to you man isn't the wisest thing to do. Let the guy at least get divorced. IMHO he did nothing wrong. He is prioritizing his kids at a very stressful time for them - their parents are planning to get divorced. IMO a proper man and father NEVER prioritizes a woman over his kids unless it is their mother. And if plans change for ANY reason to / for supporting his kids it is the proper and correct thing to do.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

If keeping his word and following through on commitments to others outside of his family is such a burden for him, then perhaps he shouldn't date and/or be in relationships until his children have left the house.

What is he teaching his daughter by dumping his girlfriend on Valentine's Day? That men are pretty easy to manipulate. Which, of course, she already seems to know.



2&out said:


> Maybe making heavy relationship demands on a married man isn't the wisest thing to do. Let the guy at least get divorced. IMHO he did nothing wrong. He is prioritizing his kids at a very stressful time for them - their parents are planning to get divorced. IMO a proper man and father NEVER prioritizes a woman over his kids unless it is their mother. And if plans change for ANY reason to / for supporting his kids it is the proper and correct thing to do.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

minimalME said:


> If keeping his word and following through on commitments to others outside of his family is such a burden for him, then perhaps he shouldn't date and/or be in relationships until his children have left the house.
> 
> What is he teaching his daughter by dumping his girlfriend on Valentine's Day? That men are pretty easy to manipulate. Which, of course, she already seems to know.





2&out said:


> Maybe making heavy relationship demands on a married not to you man isn't the wisest thing to do. Let the guy at least get divorced. IMHO he did nothing wrong. He is prioritizing his kids at a very stressful time for them - their parents are planning to get divorced. IMO a proper man and father NEVER prioritizes a woman over his kids unless it is their mother. And if plans change for ANY reason to / for supporting his kids it is the proper and correct thing to do.


 @2&out, believe me, I understand where you’re coming from, and I’ve always maintained that I commend him for being there as a Dad, and I actually think that he’s a pretty great Dad. BUT, if he really does want to be in a relationship, that relationship needs to have a spot on his priority list _sometimes_. Not all the time, but sometimes.

And I agree with @minimalME, he’s unfortunately teaching his daughter that men/people are easy to manipulate, and super-dooper unfortunately, he’s going to pay dearly for it when she gets to be a teenager, if things don’t change.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

2&out said:


> Maybe making heavy relationship demands on a married not to you man isn't the wisest thing to do. Let the guy at least get divorced. IMHO he did nothing wrong. He is prioritizing his kids at a very stressful time for them - their parents are planning to get divorced. IMO a proper man and father NEVER prioritizes a woman over his kids unless it is their mother. And if plans change for ANY reason to / for supporting his kids it is the proper and correct thing to do.


The dude isn't living with his ex. They have a custody schedule and separate lives. Sounds like it's just legal crap until the divorce is final. He's been dating Ursula for almost a year. Keeping to a date planned on a day the man didn't have his child per the schedule isn't making "heavy demands."

What isn't healthy is cancelling a dinner with your girlfriend because your child is jealous. Does "prioritizing" your child mean your child (!!!!) gets to run your life? Child decides who you can date/see/spend time with on days said child IS WITH THE OTHER PARENT? Because that's just ****ed up beyond belief.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

Don't think I've seen any TAM men criticize his actions with his daughters with dooms day predictions - only women. Maybe he's teaching them he'll always be there for them no matter what.

I'll agree with you minimalME - he shouldn't be dating Ursula. Get the divorce finished and the new life situations established before forcing another woman into their lives. Not impressed with him - he seems weak and pathetic to me. Now he's going to grovel and apologize and promise **** to Ursula to appease her for doing nothing wrong. Hell - she mislead him and is pissed he didn't read her mind on how she "really" felt. Gag.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

minimalME said:


> If keeping his word and following through on commitments to others outside of his family is such a burden for him, then perhaps he shouldn't date and/or be in relationships until his children have left the house.
> 
> What is he teaching his daughter by dumping his girlfriend on Valentine's Day? That men are pretty easy to manipulate. Which, of course, she already seems to know.





2&out said:


> Don't think I've seen any TAM men criticize his actions with his daughters with dooms day predictions - only women. Maybe he's teaching them he'll always be there for them no matter what.
> 
> I'll agree with you minimalME - he shouldn't be dating Ursula. Get the divorce finished and the new life situations established before forcing another woman into their lives. Not impressed with him - he seems weak and pathetic to me. Now he's going to grovel and apologize and promise **** to Ursula to appease her for doing nothing wrong. Hell - she mislead him and is pissed he didn't read her mind on how she "really" felt. Gag.


Yes, I should have spelled out for him that V-day has always been a painful day for me, but I figured that being pretty damn excited (and showing him that) that we had plans for the evening would be enough to see that I was excited and looking forward to spending time with him. He had initially mentioned buying some flowers and chocolate, and I specified that he really doesn’t need to buy me anything, and that all I really wanted was to spend time with him. It was my mistake that I thought that would be enough communication to get my happiness across. I don’t really feel that I mislead him, but I guess I just need to spell out what I’m feeling in the future. I’m actually not “pissed” at him; I’m sad that he doesn’t consider the relationship anything of a priority. And, I’m sorry that you’re gagging; hopefully you can get that under control soon!


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

I'm sad for you. Knowing your age and how much you wanted a family, your past, it hurts even more. It sounds like he 'loves' your kindness and good qualities, but is not ready for more--which from his perspective, I can see. But I also see yours.

He may be a guy who right now follows the path of least resistance. The 'not tell you thing'--there could be many reasons, but few of them are good. It still plays her against you. 

Valentine's Day, New Years' Eve are often times laden with hope and heaviness. Expectations lead to hurt. 

Do not second guess who you are and what you stand for--I think you are great.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

sunsetmist said:


> I'm sad for you. Knowing your age and how much you wanted a family, your past, it hurts even more. It sounds like he 'loves' your kindness and good qualities, but is not ready for more--which from his perspective, I can see. But I also see yours.
> 
> He may be a guy who right now follows the path of least resistance. The 'not tell you thing'--there could be many reasons, but few of them are good. It still plays her against you.
> 
> ...


Thank-you, you’re very sweet. And yes, there are a handful of holidays that are heavy on hope and expectations. NYE, we knew ahead of time that he would be spending it with his youngest, and that was OK with me because it was the plan and he didn’t make plans with me then cancel them. I spent NYE with 2 of my closest girlfriends, and had a nice evening anyways. Expectations do lead to hurt, but at some point, if you can’t rely on your partner sometimes, that’s not a healthy dynamic.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

2&out said:


> Don't think I've seen any TAM men criticize his actions with his daughters with dooms day predictions - only women. Maybe he's teaching them he'll always be there for them no matter what.


Perhaps you should read the thread again. The whole thread.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Ursula said:


> *Flowers are cancelled!!! *​


Good job.

Last night sounded painful with some revelations. I'm sorry. But you held your own. Again, good job.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@Ursula, 

I empathize with you. In a much lessor degree I went through some similar-ish times with EB. Now to be clear, I thought he was an AWESOME person and really liked him, but I was widowed and that's kind of an instant thing. Oh yeah there was estate stuff to finalize, but death is pretty instant. On the other hand, he was divorcing, and that is anything BUT instant. In addition, his exW wanted the D but would not lift a finger to actually get anything done (such as getting the house ready for sale). 

So like you I went through some days were I wondered "Just exactly how important am I here?" I am not sure if you are in this boat, but I definitely took a look at my own self on those days to make sure it wasn't me and my tendency to low self-worth. I mean, hey, I do okay but it does flare up from time to time! EB can testify!

In addition I also definitely took a look at him. He was in somewhat of a bind because he had a fairly unpredictable work schedule, had D things to take care of, and also had an adult child who needed some time and attention. With those 3 things pulling him away, I surely did have moments where I felt less important. 

BUT there were two pretty vital truths: a) As much as we cared for each other, we agreed to keep it on a friendship level until he was entirely untangled, available, and free to be with me. We made this agreement precisely because even in the stage of "there's just legal stuff to finalize" there will be times were he would have a legitimate obligation to others that he had to honor. So again, we talked it out and were clear but honest: we care but we are only friends until all is finished! b) When all WAS finished, and we started to date, I still had the occasional day of feeling "less important" and I realized that was at minimum partially me. So I put a reminder on my computer screen to "Remember who he is" and I would make an effort to remember the things he did do to show me he loved me and act like he cared about me. Now, love languages are different so sometimes he'd act in his love language and I would not recognize it, so I made that note for myself to remind me to look for his efforts, not look for my disappointments. Right?

In your instance @Ursula, it seems to me two things: a) He's not really available yet. In real life, there will be legitimate times that he can't "put you first" because he does have other obligations to honor. HOWEVER, in this specific event, he made a plan with you and thus his obligation was TO YOU. Life happens. My guess is that if he had considered you, contacted you, explained his dilemna, and included you somehow (like, "What do we do?" or "How can we navigate this?") it would have been okay with you, but because he EXCLUDED you, that's where the issue comes in. My though on this topic: he's not available yet. If you choose to continue to date him, know that you are choosing someone who isn't really available yet, and just accept that's the way it's going to be sometimes...which in my mind sucks. b) He may show you in some of his own ways that he cares about you, but if he can't say "I love you" yet, and if he is acting in ways that EXCLUDE you (rather than more and more including you) then I think there is an issue. Real families have weird things going on. Real families are messy. If the two of you were to become more committed, you would have the right to know the full mess to which you'd be agreeing...and you bring some of your own mess with you! 

So to my mind, the fact that he's excluding you and the fact that he's not available really does equal pull back. It's not the right time, right now. Who's to say what it may be in a couple years, when his D is done and he's been single a little while...but now is not the time. If you want, you may want to choose to continue to be friends and end the "dating" and sexual overnights. I think as long as you look at the 'man in the mirror' and deal with any part of this that might be your own self-worth issues, then all indications seem to be that this is someone to pull back from at this time.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

minimalME said:


> I agree with not sending the flowers.
> 
> But also, please don't accept plans in the future just to cancel them - that's childish/immature.
> 
> ...


To be clear, I gave that advise, not to be childish or petty, but to allow him to see it from a different perspective. I didn't mean make plans immediately and then cancel. I just meant that if something comes up in her life she should feel comfortable cancelling as it will give him a new perspective on things. 

When my Mom died, I had a coworker who was not at all supportive and in fact, would give me a hard time about not working extra hours. I came in on Christmas, my holiday off, to find I wasn't even needed. I said I was upset because my girls were home crying that I wasn't there. They were missing my mother a lot and then I left the house too. She did not get it at all. She was mad that I was upset about getting called in on my day off and felt I was using my mother's death just to create drama. 

Fast forward a couple years and she lost her mother. She came to me a short time later, during the holidays and apologized saying "I really just didn't get it until it happened to me. I was wrong back then and I'm very sorry"

That's why I recommended cancelling on him at least once. So he could understand how it feels to have that happen to you. Believe me, it wasn't to be childish. I also didn't recommend pulling back from making plans with him to be childish. He is clearly distracted by his daughter right now so @Ursula should scale back a bit to protect her own heart.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

notmyjamie said:


> To be clear, I gave that advise, not to be childish or petty, but to allow him to see it from a different perspective. I didn't mean make plans immediately and then cancel. I just meant that if something comes up in her life she should feel comfortable cancelling as it will give him a new perspective on things.
> 
> When my Mom died, I had a coworker who was not at all supportive and in fact, would give me a hard time about not working extra hours. I came in on Christmas, my holiday off, to find I wasn't even needed. I said I was upset because my girls were home crying that I wasn't there. They were missing my mother a lot and then I left the house too. She did not get it at all. She was mad that I was upset about getting called in on my day off and felt I was using my mother's death just to create drama.
> 
> ...


That's how I took it, and I'm so sorry to hear about your Mom.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

There have been a lot of good things shared in this thread and I'm not going to get into the details of the comments. I just thought I would share my thoughts on a few things. These thought are coming from a man and it appears that men and women see this situation differently.

Making plans and canceling on him as a pre-planned lesson or message is not a good idea. There is a small chance that it will have the desired result and a large chance it will have negative results. On top of that; do you really want to be that person?

This thread has made the 'cancelled flowers' seem much more important than they should be.

This man was clearly not considerate of you when he changed the valentines plans. And you were really excited about those plans. If I was in your shoes, I would tell him those two things clearly and explain my expectations. I would also tell him that he owes me a valentines celebration by x date. He should be able to plan an equal enjoyable experience on another day.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

leftfield said:


> There have been a lot of good things shared in this thread and I'm not going to get into the details of the comments. I just thought I would share my thoughts on a few things. These thought are coming from a man and it appears that men and women see this situation differently.
> 
> Making plans and canceling on him as a pre-planned lesson or message is not a good idea. There is a small chance that it will have the desired result and a large chance it will have negative results. On top of that; do you really want to be that person?
> 
> ...


I agree, and would not cancel on him just to cancel on him. However, in the past, I have gotten a last minute text from him about getting together that evening for supper. Because we don’t see each other often, I’ve always rearranged whatever plans (errands, not plans with friends/family) I have to accommodate him. I’m not doing that anymore. Even simply if I’m tired from the day, I will no longer feel obligated to rearrange my life to spend accommodate him. It’s nice that he thinks of me in those times, but I no longer have to feel obligated to say, “I’m sorry, I have other plans” or “I’m sorry, I’m exhausted”. 

As for owing me a post Valentine’s date, I really don’t care about that. I care that he cancelled on me without considering how I may feel. What I care about is that our relationship doesn’t seem to be a consideration all that much. He has 2 months max to prove to me in action, not just words that this means something to him; if after that time, he cannot or has not, I’m letting myself out of the relationship. 

And thank-you; I appreciate a man's perspective on things too!


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I think the relevance of the cancelled flowers is Ursula implementing, in a relatively simple way for (and to) herself, how she could pull back. Honey, I'd redirect that order and send them to yourself.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

heartsbeating said:


> I think the relevance of the cancelled flowers is Ursula implementing, in a relatively simple way for (and to) herself, how she could pull back. Honey, I'd redirect that order and send them to yourself.


I thought about that! But, just cancelled them in the end, as I don’t really need to spend that money on flowers for myself. Instead, I’m putting in an order to a Vietnamese place near my home, picking up my favourite wine and a snack sized bag of cheezies (yeah, wine and cheezies tonight; kongs for the dogs).

Spoke with the beau last night to let him know that I wouldn’t be joining him and his daughters for dinner, as I felt like I invited myself and that doesn’t sit well with me. He said a couple things that I hope stick in the future: that he should have just included me from the start, and then when I sadly started crying again, he said that he truly didn’t realize that he had upset me so much. I’m not one to cry easily, so on the odd occasion that it happens, he knows I’m pretty upset. He mentioned possibly coming over tonight, which I told him wasn’t needed (we’ll get to spend more time together if we just see each other Saturday through Sunday), but that I’m always happy to see him and it would be a nice surprise. We’ll see. I do have a somewhat nice evening planned: freelance design work, cleaning my house and the aforementioned wine and cheezies, probably with some Grey’s Anatomy. Feeling much better today, and things are sitting well with us, but I’m still going to keep an eye on him and how he responds to his daughter in the future, and won’t be scared to break things off if need be.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

@Ursula, you sound like you're in a good place! I'm happy for you.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

@Ursula. I hope you're evening goes well. I think it could be nice if he shows up unexpectedly. There is no law that says you can't also spend Saturday into Sunday together also. I think it might be time to stop discussing it with him...it just makes you cry and he has apologized. See what the next two months bring.

If it makes you feel better, I'm spending tonight with my boyfriend and his kids and ex-wife :frown2: LOL it's his daughters birthday and she invited us out but didn't tell us her Mom was included until a couple days later. Thankfully I get along with her fine so it's not a big deal. And I love his daughter so I'm happy to make her happy. It makes a good story though for years later. We spent our first Valentine's together with his wife :laugh:


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

minimalME said:


> @Ursula, you sound like you're in a good place! I'm happy for you.


Thank-you; I've learned a lot since my separation, divorce and now dating as a middle-aged woman, and you guys here have been with me through all of that, and I can't tell you all how much that's appreciated. 

Happy Valentine’s Day, everyone! :smile2:


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

notmyjamie said:


> @Ursula. I hope you're evening goes well. I think it could be nice if he shows up unexpectedly. There is no law that says you can't also spend Saturday into Sunday together also. I think it might be time to stop discussing it with him...it just makes you cry and he has apologized. See what the next two months bring.
> 
> If it makes you feel better, I'm spending tonight with my boyfriend and his kids and ex-wife :frown2: LOL it's his daughters birthday and she invited us out but didn't tell us her Mom was included until a couple days later. Thankfully I get along with her fine so it's not a big deal. And I love his daughter so I'm happy to make her happy. It makes a good story though for years later. We spent our first Valentine's together with his wife :laugh:


I remember reading that on another thread, and that'll definitely be an interesting evening! But, that's fantastic that you get along with his ex-wife, and it sounds like you have a great relationship with his daughter. How old is she?


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Ursula said:


> I remember reading that on another thread, and that'll definitely be an interesting evening! But, that's fantastic that you get along with his ex-wife, and it sounds like you have a great relationship with his daughter. How old is she?


She is 18 today so it's a big one. She is a great kid, I guess adult now. She is very sweet to want me there. In the beginning she asked her Dad if I would always be around and we made sure she had plenty of dinners or breakfasts out with him with me not there. But he also told her that I was an important part of his life so I would be around sometimes. Fast forward just a few months and she always asks where I am when he shows up alone. The same is not true of her Mom's boyfriend. So I have no issue celebrating her big day with her tonight. My guy and I will make a nice dinner tomorrow night.


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

Kids come first. I cant fault the guy for making them the center of his life.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Their wellbeing should definitely come first. But having a child dictate an adult's dating life and plans during the days the child *is with the other parent* isn't healthy.



Benbutton said:


> Kids come first. I cant fault the guy for making them the center of his life.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Ursula said:


> He said last night that he knows he has to put his foot down with his youngest. I thought it was a little strange that she was so desperate to spend what’s more of a romantic day with her Dad. However, she probably just doesn’t want him to spend it with me.


Never gonna happen. His little princess will always come first.

I've seen too many foolish men over-indulge their daughters and allow these kids to literally dictate every move they make. My niece did it with my brother for YEARS after his divorce, and scared off* numerous* girlfriends with her nasty little attitude before she finally got old enough to have her own adult relationships and was too busy with her own life to continue ruining his.

So if you want to wait 7-10 years when the little tyrant is finally in her own relationships, then you're golden. If you prefer a man who knows how to raise his kids without being a wimpy welcome mat that they wipe their feet on, then he's probably not the one for you.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

notmyjamie said:


> Fast forward just a few months and she always asks where I am when he shows up alone.


Oh I love this so much.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Ursula said:
> 
> 
> > He said last night that he knows he has to put his foot down with his youngest. I thought it was a little strange that she was so desperate to spend what’s more of a romantic day with her Dad. However, she probably just doesn’t want him to spend it with me.
> ...


I agree with this. The fact that it's already happened (the dynamic with the daughter) does not bode well. It was very revealing that your boyfriend was *crying* when he was talking to you about the Valentine's situation (and the crying wasn't because he hurt YOU). Reiterating here--- you've been dating him for almost a year. This isn't a new dating thing. And most importantly, your date was planned to occur on a day he wasn't going to be with the kids. It was their time to be with their mother. Him going out to dinner on an evening he was not with them, and was not supposed to be with them, had absolutely no real effect on his kids. He was not neglecting his daughter or spending less time with her because of it. He was not putting spending time with you over her. 

I think it's gross when a man has his primary emotional relationship in life with his daughter. I, too, have seen it. I've seen it a couple of times in intact families as well and it's almost even more disconcerting (the mother is ignored and the daughter is treated more like the spouse-- emotionally). I'm all for being the best parent possible and raising a child with the best possible love, care, attention, guidance, teaching, etc. But a parent is a parent and it's supposed to be ***different*** emotionally than an adult, intimate, lover type relationship. A parent isn't a partner and your child certainly should not be your life partner, emotionally. 

It's really interesting. You read all over how parents should make damn sure they take time as a couple to "hire a sitter" and have weekly date night, leave the kids with relatives and go on occasion weekend getaways, make sure they remember they are adults and lovers and sexual beings and not merely parents, work hard at staying connected as lovers after children. Make sure they have me time and hobbies because parents should still be people, too. A happy, full life as a parent includes that parent having a healthy and strong love life and adult life generally. Everything revolving around the kids is termed not healthy. 

Until they are a divorced adult???????

THEN they are not supposed to have a relationship with anyone but their child, even if they only have their children half time... child is suddenly supposed to be their "whole world".

That makes for a ****ed up and frankly unnatural dynamic for both parent and child.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@Livvie I totally get what you are saying. But the difference is that if the family is intact, the children are in a secure environment and can flourish. In that case, the children need to see and learn that mom and dad are in love and have their own connection with each other. This helps the kids model this when they become adults. 

But if the parents are divorced, kids don’t do well if the parents are more interested in new partners than they are in the kids’ well being. Kids feel a huge betrayal on behalf of themselves and the other parent. Kids are trying to cope with this new situation which they didn’t choose and they need more support than when the family was in tact.

Having said that, of course there are ways divorced parents can have a new relationship and still be a good supportive parent. It’s a delicate balance but can easily be achieved. 

I’m not sure what to say about Ursula’s guy because it sounds like his kids have gone through a total **** show and probably need better support that what he is providing. In some cases, it really is better to just not bring new people into kids’ lives if the situation is extreme. At least until the kids feel solid ground under their feet again emotionally.

The daughter seems needy and fussy but it also sounds like she may have been molested by her uncle or something. If that’s the case, I do think her dad should definitely be there for her and get her mental health in check more than he would need to in a less horrible situation.

Her entire future mental health kind of hinges on how things are handled now. I’m not saying he is handling things correctly, in fact it seems he isn’t. But if the child has been molested it’s going to cause her to act in extremely immature and manipulative ways. She’s just trying to gain back some power in her life. It’s tragic really and maybe he really should just focus on working through all of that.

I think you’re doing great handling yourself Ursula. And you have every right to be ticked off about all of this and how it affects you and your relationship with him. I’m just not sure he’s capable of being a good boyfriend to you right now.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Faithful Wife said:


> Having said that, of course there are ways divorced parents can have a new relationship and still be a good supportive parent. It’s a delicate balance but can easily be achieved.
> 
> Absolutely, like everything in life, it's a balance. Kids need to know that you're there for them, want to spend time with them, and that yes, you'll drop your new partner if they need you because that shows them that you love them more than the new partner. My boyfriend and I always say the kids come first. He's had to cancel on me before and I've had to cancel on him. Neither of us get upset because our kids don't abuse it. They aren't making us cancel over jealousy, they have true needs sometimes and it's our job to be there for them.
> 
> ...


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

Livvie said:


> Their wellbeing should definitely come first. But having a child dictate an adult's dating life and plans during the days the child *is with the other parent* isn't healthy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Neither is complaining about it. He obviously chooses his kids first and rightfully so.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Benbutton said:


> Neither is complaining about it. He obviously chooses his kids first and rightfully so.


Have you even read this thread?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Ursula how did the weekend go?


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

I can see all sides of the situation, and I’ve always commended him on being there for his kids when they need him. He’s a great Dad in that way. 

But, @She'sStillGotIt, @Livvie, I hear you when you say that the sort of dynamic where a parent lets a child run his life and call the shots, etc, is unhealthy. It is. I’m not a parent, and can tell you that while his youngest seems to want control of him, in reality, she doesn’t. What she really wants is stability and boundaries and her Dad to just continue to be there for her. What she doesn’t realize is that he is and can continue to give her all of what she needs and STILL be in a relationship with someone. I’m not 100% sure he even realizes this to be honest. 

@Faithful Wife, I definitely would not say that he’s more interested in me than in his daughters, but I feel like his youngest feels that way, and I really don’t know why. I’m not around them a lot, and he bows down to her wants at times. His kids have been through a lot, and don’t really have a lot of stability in their Mom from what I know. As to what the youngest went through, I’ve been assured that it’s not a molestation, which was what my brain also first jumped to. She is fussy and she is needy, and is also currently in therapy. In some regards, he handles things correctly; in some regards he really doesn’t. And, I do agree with you about him possibly not being ready at this time to be a good partner to me or anyone else. A little more time will tell though.

@notmyjamie, I’ve actually suggested to him that he stop telling her when we’re getting together and what we’re going to be doing. She’s 9; it’s not her business. He doesn’t like to lie to her, which I get, but just telling her that he’s seeing me on his off week would be enough information. Him seeing me stresses her out I feel, so I don’t know why he would give her details so she could stress out on the evening we’re getting together. However, this weekend was a bit of a stepping stone. We spent all day Saturday and a chunk of Sunday together. We were out Sunday afternoon, in a store, the youngest daughter called him twice. He didn’t pickup the first call, and not 5 seconds later, another one came in from her. Before he picked up, I asked if she knew that we were together and he said no. So, he didn’t tell her his weekend plans which was nice. So, hopefully this weekend will set a new trend of him not telling her every bit of information on his child-free time. And I do agree that if she truly DOES need her Dad when she’s with her Mom, he should certainly be there for her, but it should be an actual need, not just a jealous fit. 

I need to bear in mind that this is his first relationship since his separation 2 years ago, and he’s learning and feeling his way as he goes. He’s not perfect; nor am I, and I really do think he understands now just how badly he hurt me and us as a couple. I actually told him that I was *this close* to walking away. I’ve forgiven him, but haven’t forgotten, and will definitely be keeping a close watch on things in the future. His oldest turns 15 today, and her, her Dad and little sister are all going out for supper tomorrow. The oldest specifically invited me along, which I thought was super sweet. BF also stated that he wants me there. It’s sad, but I’m not holding my breath on it; we’ll see if it happens!

@Benbutton, I’m not intentionally complaining about it; I was hurt, badly, and even through a child’s jealous tantrum of not wanting her Dad to spend his time with me, he should have at the very least been considerate enough to let me know himself that plans were changing. I had to call him a couple days later, chat for awhile about various stuff, then when I brought up our awesome weekend plans, is when he said “yeah, about that….”. I will state again that I understand plans changing because his child(ren) are in need of him being there for them, and I commend him for being that man. What I don’t understand is the way he chose to handle this particular situation, which was all sorts of wrong.

@Anastasia6, it ended up being really nice! We spent Saturday afternoon cross-country skiing (his first time; I’ve been XC skiing for 15 years), and we had a great time; definitely going to do more of that. We went out for a supper at our favourite Mexican restaurant. Then we watched the last Harry Potter movie. Sunday he helped me get another batch of wine started (my new hobby), went out window shopping a bit, and that’s it. Pretty low-key, but that’s us, and it was nice. The rest of my weekend was spent freelancing and cuddling my dogs, one of who just got out of dental surgery this morning. She’s doing well: 4 teeth removed, 8 teeth left!

Okay, this was way longer than expected. Sorry guys!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

*" I had to call him a couple days later, chat for awhile about various stuff, then when I brought up our awesome weekend plans, is when he said “yeah, about that….”.*

Ok. This bothers me. When was he planning on telling you that he was cancelling the plans? It's as though he didn't even have the decency to *call you*. Is he a conflict avoider? Pair one conflict avoider with another and you've got trouble in River City.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> *" I had to call him a couple days later, chat for awhile about various stuff, then when I brought up our awesome weekend plans, is when he said “yeah, about that….”.*
> 
> Ok. This bothers me. When was he planning on telling you that he was cancelling the plans? It's as though he didn't even have the decency to *call you*. Is he a conflict avoider? Pair one conflict avoider with another and you've got trouble in River City.


He is a bit of a conflict avoider, yes, and has admitted that he’s not a fan of conflict. Neither am I, but would rather bring things up and deal with them then brush them under the rug. The above bothers me too though; another reason why I’m monitoring things now.


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## a_new_me (Dec 27, 2012)

I would never go a day without talking to my man.

A couple of days? Side piece.

Dump.


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## m.t.t (Oct 5, 2016)

my thoughts are at nearly a year I would think that your relationship would be a bit more advanced than what I'm hearing. But in saying that if you are happy not spending more time that is fine. I feel that him telling you that he thinks you are the kindest person he has ever met is maybe code for you will put up with most things. Him not actively showing or telling you that he loves you is a bit of a worry.

I would pull back like you suggested, and you should have always been putting yourself first. Canceling already made plans with family and friends to fit him in is never a good idea. This is why you are the kindest person. Stop being so kind! He should be sending flowers not you lovely Ursula


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

The guy is a prime candidate for getting back with his wife. There is no reason for a divorce to drag on this long. Especially, with his wife's drinking problem.

This is why it is not a good idea to get involved with people who are not officially divorced.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

m.t.t said:


> my thoughts are at nearly a year I would think that your relationship would be a bit more advanced than what I'm hearing. But in saying that if you are happy not spending more time that is fine. I feel that him telling you that he thinks you are the kindest person he has ever met is maybe code for you will put up with most things. Him not actively showing or telling you that he loves you is a bit of a worry.
> 
> I would pull back like you suggested, and you should have always been putting yourself first. Canceling already made plans with family and friends to fit him in is never a good idea. This is why you are the kindest person. Stop being so kind! He should be sending flowers not you lovely Ursula


Sorry, I may not have explained myself correctly: I absolutely DON’T cancel plans with family/friends to be with him. I have however, rescheduled errands for another night to be with him. And yes, I feel the same way: after almost a year, a person should know whether or not they love another, and if they don’t, that’s cause for concern. I still care about him, but am still going to monitor over the next little while.



Blondilocks said:


> The guy is a prime candidate for getting back with his wife. There is no reason for a divorce to drag on this long. Especially, with his wife's drinking problem.
> 
> This is why it is not a good idea to get involved with people who are not officially divorced.


This is something I’m really not worried about. He had a widow maker heart attack due to the issues in his marriage and how stressed out he was in said marriage. The reason that the divorce is stalled has nothing to do with him or his lawyer; it’s all to do with the fact that his ex is no longer paying her lawyer. She works part time when she actually works (which isn’t often), and spends most of her money and child support on alcohol and marijuana. Still something to keep an eye on in the future though. If his divorce continues to drag on, it’s not really something I want to be caught in the middle of.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Has a divorce complaint even been filed? He doesn't need to wait forever. If they can't come to an agreement on their own, he can have it set for trial. Whether or not she has legal representation is up to her.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

a_new_me said:


> I would never go a day without talking to my man.
> 
> A couple of days? Side piece.
> 
> Dump.


When I'm in a relationship I don't necessarily speak to that person every day. Especially if it is someone who has kids. We may text every day but talk on the phone every day? No.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Livvie said:


> Has a divorce complaint even been filed? He doesn't need to wait forever. If they can't come to an agreement on their own, he can have it set for trial. Whether or not she has legal representation is up to her.


He doesn't particularly want to go to court, but I'm going to look into this divorce complaint thing for Canada, and see if something can be done with that. Thanks!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

@Ursula, you have a part-time boyfriend. You have no idea how your relationship will work until you go full-time. You see him 8 days a month. That is nothing compared to 31 days. It's the day in and day out that tells you if this is the person for you. I don't think you two should be saying "I love you" until you actually spend real time together.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Ursula said:


> He doesn't particularly want to go to court, but I'm going to look into this divorce complaint thing for Canada, and see if something can be done with that. Thanks!




Why are you looking into it? Shouldn’t he be?


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> When I'm in a relationship I don't necessarily speak to that person every day. Especially if it is someone who has kids. We may text every day but talk on the phone every day? No.


Exactly, I don’t need or want to talk to him everyday; my life isn’t so exciting that there’s news to share! I’ve done this before with previous BFs, and we’ve literally just sat in silence because there’s nothing new to say. We’re both adults and we both have lives outside of one another. I give him space to do his thing; he gives me space to do mine.



Elizabeth001 said:


> Why are you looking into it? Shouldn’t he be?


Well, yeah he should be the one looking into it. My thinking was just that he probably isn’t aware that there’s something called a “divorce complaint”. I’ve never heard of it either TBH, and was curious.



Blondilocks said:


> @Ursula, you have a part-time boyfriend. You have no idea how your relationship will work until you go full-time. You see him 8 days a month. That is nothing compared to 31 days. It's the day in and day out that tells you if this is the person for you. I don't think you two should be saying "I love you" until you actually spend real time together.


This is very true, except that we’re lucky if we get to see each other 8 days a month; 4 is more like it with 2 overnights, so I guess that would be 6 days a month. We’ve been seeing one another more lately though, which has been nice. This summer (if we make it to summer) we’re planning on going away for a few days. For me, this will tell me how we get along seeing each other for 24 hours a day, multiple days in a row.

Went to his oldest girl’s birthday supper last night, and it was nice; we had a fun night. Around the time that I was getting ready to go, youngest daughter was told to go get her PJs on, and she was told 3-4 times. He took her iPad away and said that she wasn’t getting it back until she listened to him, and he was showing some frustration with her and finally putting his foot down. She was having none of it; not throwing a tantrum, but just not doing what she was told. For some reason, she wanted him to wait outside her bedroom door while she got into her PJs, which is odd. I mean, I know the kid watches horror movies, and maybe she’s freaked out by those. Maybe it has something to do with whatever she’s recently been through. Who knows, I just thought it was odd, and I’m glad that he finally started pushing back. I’m monitoring things closely!


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

IDK, but l think rather along the lines of contact every day is a good thing, it shows me that if I am apart of her life both she and l are thinking of that new level of commitment. I'm not saying not living my life but come hell or high water this is kinda a litmus test of sorts. Meaning exactly where in my life do you want to be, and if I'm not recipokating tells shows alot. 

It's like should I or shouldn't i, if l do then she'll think I am serious about her but if I don't then I leave my options open. I don't think many people want to be that kind of option.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Ursula said:


> For some reason, she wanted him to wait outside her bedroom door while she got into her PJs, which is odd. I mean, I know the kid watches horror movies, and maybe she’s freaked out by those. Maybe it has something to do with whatever she’s recently been through. Who knows, I just thought it was odd, and I’m glad that he finally started pushing back. I’m monitoring things closely!


Dad did good. I applaud him. I have to ask--why is a young kid (9? Did I get that right?) allowed to watch horror movies at such a tender age? 

And based on what you've told us, and I hope I'm wrong, I think she's manipulating Dad in this scenario. But there is hope based on how he held firm last night. 

I will say, though, from the albeit very limited info you've disclosed to us, I am not thrilled with the whole D process, or should I say stalled process. But you've got your head on straight. I'm not worried about you in the least.


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## a_new_me (Dec 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> When I'm in a relationship I don't necessarily speak to that person every day. Especially if it is someone who has kids. We may text every day but talk on the phone every day? No.




Communication is important. 
If you cannot do that, then buy a cat.

I have kids. I schedule everything. I also make time for everyone. I am only one person, but I have needs, and so does everyone else in my life. There are only 24 hours in a day.

Sorry OP, but he needs to give more. If he wont now, he never will. You will end up a pushover. 


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

a_new_me said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > When I'm in a relationship I don't necessarily speak to that person every day. Especially if it is someone who has kids. We may text every day but talk on the phone every day? No.
> ...


Nah, I’ll just keep being me. I don’t want to talk on the phone every day with anyone. If I’m dating someone who seems to need to talk to me every day, I stop dating them. 

Also PSA, no one needs to buy a cat. There are a dozen or more free cats who need homes in any area’s animal shelter.


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## a_new_me (Dec 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Nah, I’ll just keep being me. I don’t want to talk on the phone every day with anyone. If I’m dating someone who seems to need to talk to me every day, I stop dating them.
> 
> Also PSA, no one needs to buy a cat. There are a dozen or more free cats who need homes in any area’s animal shelter.




PSM me.. 


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

lucy999 said:


> Dad did good. I applaud him. I have to ask--why is a young kid (9? Did I get that right?) allowed to watch horror movies at such a tender age?
> 
> And based on what you've told us, and I hope I'm wrong, I think she's manipulating Dad in this scenario. But there is hope based on how he held firm last night.
> 
> I will say, though, from the albeit very limited info you've disclosed to us, I am not thrilled with the whole D process, or should I say stalled process. But you've got your head on straight. I'm not worried about you in the least.


He did do well, yup, I just hope it continues! I’m really not sure why a 9 year old is allowed to watch horrors; her big sister likes them, so it might just be a case of wanting to do what big did does. I was that way when I was that age too. I do think you’re right though that she’s manipulating her Dad, and I’m hoping that he can see through that soon. I’m also not thrilled with their divorce process and how much its stalled.




a_new_me said:


> Communication is important.
> If you cannot do that, then buy a cat.
> 
> I have kids. I schedule everything. I also make time for everyone. I am only one person, but I have needs, and so does everyone else in my life. There are only 24 hours in a day.
> ...


I agree that communication is very important, and we have good communication for most part. Of course there are things that could always be improved upon. Do I still want to talk to him everyday? Nope, I’m wth @Faithful Wife, in that if my SO needed to talk to me everyday, they couldn’t be my SO. Ain’t nobody got time for that! But, I’m not sure what your schedule is like: you may have time for that. I work full time, have 2 side gig businesses, have started freelancing for at least an hour a night, and also do bootcamp classes. Plus, I have 2 dogs that require my attention, not to mention my girlfriends and family. So yeah, time is limited in my life! That all being said, I’m monitoring things closely for the next little while. If things continue with his daughter the way they have been, I’ll have to bow out of the relationship, as I don’t want to be a pushover.


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## a_new_me (Dec 27, 2012)

You sound just as busy as me.
I manage constant doctors, therapists and educational and all fun things for 4. Plus I have my pets, extended family, friends ands am trying to squeeze in self care.

It is hard. I am always “booked”.

One of my gfs actually randomly showed up at my door today with some wine and she needed me. I had a date tonight and had to cancel on him because I fell asleep. Insomnia sucks. That was after my ex showed up at my house with a “i still love you” gift.

Just take care of yourself.
Make time for you.

X


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

a_new_me said:


> You sound just as busy as me.
> I manage constant doctors, therapists and educational and all fun things for 4. Plus I have my pets, extended family, friends ands am trying to squeeze in self care.
> 
> It is hard. I am always “booked”.
> ...


Yikes, sounds like quite the time of it that you’ve had lately, especially with the “I still love you” gift. Some guys just don’t get it. Good for you for squeezing in some self-care time; this is something that I’m still learning how to do.


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## a_new_me (Dec 27, 2012)

Ursula said:


> Yikes, sounds like quite the time of it that you’ve had lately, especially with the “I still love you” gift. Some guys just don’t get it. Good for you for squeezing in some self-care time; this is something that I’m still learning how to do.




It was a nice gift.

Make sure you do self-care. You deserve it 


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