# I can't stop bringing up our relationship



## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

A little backstory. Let me first say, I blame myself for my wife's infidelity. I broke her heart and trust when I continued to do photoshoots she didn't want me to do. I tried to justify to myself that the photoshoots were infrequent (years apart) and I made sure they were strictly professional. But the reality is, she said no and I did them anyway. This all started 5 years go. Thinking back, the photoshoots weren't repetitious. Of course, I did each one without her knowledge. I would get caught, she would be very upset, I would apologize, then maybe a year or two later I would do another. That was the pattern.

Last Oct (2016), I saw texts from my wife to a guy she reconnected with through Facebook that was pretty obvious of a relationship. After some questioning, she admitted to having a one-night stand with him.

I was devasted. We dated for 8 years and have been married for 15. She's all I ever known. I want to reconcile. We have 4 kids together and I still love her much. I want to work on me, us, and our marriage.

I gave her an ultimatum to cease all contact with him or I would divorce her. That lasted about two weeks. After another heated discussion, we decided that we would separate after the New Years because we wanted to give the kids one last family Christmas. During that time, she slept on the couch. I wasn't sure if she was still talking to him during that month. I had my suspicions but I couldn't prove anything.

In early Jan, she asks me what I am going to do. An argument ensues and I decide I would be the one to leave. I pack what I could and moved with my mom. I've been there ever since.

Since December I've been desperately trying to reconcile. Nothing I am doing is working. I've tried all the usual stuff; from flowers to no-contact to giving her space. It seems the more I try, the more she pulls away.

During these past 6 months, I've done some dumb stuff which confirms that she is still seeing the guy.

Yes, I know I am being naive. All facts point to a divorce. I realize that. I come to you to see if there is anything else I can do. 

I realize I am doing everything wrong. She dreads me picking up the kids because I want to talk about us. She says she needs more time. She says she still thinks about me, loves me, misses me. But every weekend I have the kids, she goes to see this other guy. She says they just hang out. When I asked if they do anything else, she says they just kiss and hold hands. I asked her if she's leading me on and she says no. Up to this point, I feel like she's been honest about what she's been doing with him. I asked her she's slept with him since that last time in Oct and she's said no. 

I know...I know...Divorce her. But I blame myself for this and I having a hard time letting go. She's moved on and I can't. Or has she? It's been 6 months since I moved out. Hasn't it been long enough


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

junomech said:


> A little backstory. Let me first say, I blame myself for my wife's infidelity. I broke her heart and trust when I continued to do photoshoots she didn't want me to do. I tried to justify to myself that the photoshoots were infrequent (years apart) and I made sure they were strictly professional. But the reality is, she said no and I did them anyway. This all started 5 years go. Thinking back, the photoshoots weren't repetitious. Of course, I did each one without her knowledge. I would get caught, she would be very upset, I would apologize, then maybe a year or two later I would do another. That was the pattern.
> 
> Last Oct (2016), I saw texts from my wife to a guy she reconnected with through Facebook that was pretty obvious of a relationship. After some questioning, she admitted to having a one-night stand with him.
> 
> ...


She called your bluff and she won. What you must do now is proceed with the D, if for no other reason than to show her you are a man of your word.


OP,
What has made you so desperately want this woman? Why now do you see the photo shoots as wrong, what is different? Could the fact that you cannot have her now have anything to do with it? It is in their nature for humans to want what they cannot have. You are making yourself not only available but weak and needy as well. Women do not care for weak men. If there is any chance for you to save your marriage you must be willing to move on. Focus on your child and yourself, show no interest in her at all. Do not initiate conversation, do not text, do nothing except what is absolutely necessary for your child.

I would also file for D immediately as a method of conveying to her that you will not be treated as a doormat. If she sees your sincerity and your strength she may decide she wants you after all, not likely but possible. If she does not then proceed with the D, fix your issues and then find a woman that appreciates what you bring to the relationship table.

You will never "nice" her back, it simply does not work as you have seen for the past 6 months. Be strong, be confident and let her see the man she is discarding, it is your final play. Lastly, do not accept blame for her A. You are to blame for problems in the marriage but her A was the absolutely wrong way to handle it. She has proven her character to be worse than the flaw she saw in yours by losing her honor, her integrity and breaking her solemn vow. That is on her, not you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you told her family that she's been cheating?


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

Your wife, of her own volition, decided to have an affair. Your wife has likely minimized that affair to you, as a single one night stand with some guy and nothing more. Your wife continues seeing him, despite you trying to make things right. It's over. 

I don't know all the details here. It's not clear what your "photo shoots" entailed, or what dumb stuff you've done over the last 6 months. I couldn't imagine it's worthy of her leaving the marriage (which she already has done, emotionally and physically), but again, I don't know the details and can't be sure. For others here to better help you, I suggest expanding on these things.

My advice: stop feeling guilty and giving your wife the upper hand in an inevitable divorce. Get what evidence you can of her infidelity, lawyer up, and fight for what's best for you and your kids. Reconciliation with someone who's checked out of the marriage is a lost cause more often than not, and without knowing more, I wager you'd be a fool for continuing to bark up that tree.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

It sounds like you're handling this the right way. You acknowledge that there are reasons that may have led your wife to have an affair, but no excuses, and you're demanding that she end it. 

You need to continue with the approach outlined in Surviving an Affair to bust up the affair and explain to your wife what you'll need from her to move forward to make sure she doesn't keep restarting the affair. You both need to implement extraordinary precautions in your marriage, as you both have poor boundaries around the opposite sex, and as you're seeing, this can destroy marriages. If the photo shoots you were doing included nudity and/or boudoir lingerie, etc., and that fact that you hid them from your wife and did them after she expressed that it was not ok with her, then you both have broken the trust in your marriage. The steps in the book include exposure to close family and friends, and the OM's wife if he has one, and his family, as well as full transparency required on both your parts. Your wife should not be able to continue contact with the OM without your knowledge. Every time she does she is starting back at square 1 and will be unable to work with you to repair the marriage.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

Her parent don't know yet. She was going to tell on Mother's day but ended up not telling them. She told her sister that we're separated. Nothing more.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Kissing and holding hands? Are they twelve?

That's a load of bull**** and you know it.

Also, what do you mean by "photoshoots" ...?


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

GusPolinski said:


> Kissing and holding hands? Are they twelve?
> 
> That's a load of bull**** and you know it.
> 
> Also, what do you mean by "photoshoots" ...?


I know...I know...Like I said, I am blaming myself.

The photoshoots consisted of artful nude, implied nude, & boudoir. And here is me justifying them. I only ever did one artful nude and made sure she brought an escort. I think I did 2 implied nude shoots, and about 4 boudoirs in the span of 5 years.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

junomech said:


> Her parent don't know yet. She was going to tell on Mother's day but ended up not telling them. She told her sister that we're separated. Nothing more.


If YOU want to stay married, you need to do this the right way. And please understand we've been helping people just like you for decades. We know what works and what doesn't. 

To get a woman to stop cheating, the man must immediately tell her to stop. And when she refuses immediately go to her parents, her siblings, her best friend, her pastor, and tell them that she's decided to cheat on you and you'd like to save your marriage and you'd like their help in talking to her, to show her they won't just accept this new guy she's brought in to tear up the marriage. You NEVER let the cheater tell his/her family - they will simply say it's all your fault and they 'had' to.

Will she be mad? Absolutely. But your marriage can survive her anger. It (obviously) can't survive another man in it.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

_anonymous_ said:


> Your wife, of her own volition, decided to have an affair. Your wife has likely minimized that affair to you, as a single one night stand with some guy and nothing more. Your wife continues seeing him, despite you trying to make things right. It's over.
> 
> I don't know all the details here. It's not clear what your "photo shoots" entailed, or what dumb stuff you've done over the last 6 months. I couldn't imagine it's worthy of her leaving the marriage (which she already has done, emotionally and physically), but again, I don't know the details and can't be sure. For others here to better help you, I suggest expanding on these things.
> 
> My advice: stop feeling guilty and giving your wife the upper hand in an inevitable divorce. Get what evidence you can of her infidelity, lawyer up, and fight for what's best for you and your kids. Reconciliation with someone who's checked out of the marriage is a lost cause more often than not, and without knowing more, I wager you'd be a fool for continuing to bark up that tree.


The dumb stuff I was referring to, which by own admission, was extremely stupid were the following:

1) One weekend when I had the kids, I took my daughter's phone, turned on tracking, and placed it in her trunk. I tracked her on Saturday and confirmed she went to his house. Only did it once.

2) I would connect to my computer at home via Google Hangout to spy. I justified it by telling myself I only wanted to hear the kids playing. I missed the everyday noise of a busy and playful house. Did it from Jan - March. Then I disconnected the webcam.

3) 3 weeks ago, she dropped the boys off at my place. I had a suspicion she went to his place afterward. About 30 mins later, I drove by and she was there. I turned on the camera phone, started recording, and confronted her. He told me to leave. I eventually did. There was no physical contact. I think I handled myself pretty well considering.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

junomech said:


> The dumb stuff I was referring to, which by own admission, was extremely stupid were the following:
> 
> 1) One weekend when I had the kids, I took my daughter's phone, turned on tracking, and placed it in her trunk. I tracked her on Saturday and confirmed she went to his house. Only did it once.
> 
> ...


Your wife isn't trustworthy. Why you are faulting yourself for no longer trusting her? I mean, she had a physical and emotional affair, in which she forfeited privileges of your trust. If it were my wife, I'd have more surveillance on her than would the CIA on a person of interest!

Now, about those photo shoots, what was up with them? Did you have an affair, or could that have been construed by your wife? I don't think either would give her the right to do what she did, but nevertheless, it is important to understand her behavior and its motivation.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Are you a professional photographer or did you just do these for fun?


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

They're having sex. Regularly. She only " needs more time" so she can see if her new relationship works. If it does, she's gone. If it fails, you're Plan B.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Expose
File for D
Move back into your home

Photoshoots are not the reason for your W infidelity. It is a convenient excuse. By your W logic if she did not clean the dishes as you asked a few times it is a green light for you to go have your ashes hauled by any woman willing. File D. 


Further, they are doing more than hand holding and kissing. You are plan B with a paycheck. Please file.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

junomech said:


> The dumb stuff I was referring to, which by own admission, was extremely stupid were the following:
> 
> 1) One weekend when I had the kids, I took my daughter's phone, turned on tracking, and placed it in her trunk. I tracked her on Saturday and confirmed she went to his house. Only did it once.
> 
> ...


How did she find out about #1 & #2


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Tell us some about these photo shoots. Who were you taking the photos of? Were did you go to take the photos of? Were you along with this person? How many hours/days did you spend on these photo shoots?


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

Chris Taylor said:


> Are you a professional photographer or did you just do these for fun?


I am a professional photographer. I mainly shoot weddings. The model shoots were mainly for fun and to experiment with different lighting conditions. I varied styles, things I couldn't on a paid gig.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Tell us some about these photo shoots. Who were you taking the photos of? Were did you go to take the photos of? Were you along with this person? How many hours/days did you spend on these photo shoots?


These photoshoots were mainly female models with a male model thrown in a couple of times. The majority of the model photoshoots were fashion/editorial and beauty/glamor. The locations of the photoshoots varied from my un-leased condo that me and brother own to my home studio to on-locations (downtown, warehouse district, etc). Sometimes I was alone with the model and sometimes a makeup artist and hairstylist was on set. As far as time, photoshoots would last no more than 2 hours. I hate idle time on photoshoots. I prefer to get in and get out. I don't need to take a million pictures of each look. More time behind the camera equals twice as much time behind the computer editing photos.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> Expose
> File for D
> Move back into your home
> 
> ...


What type of photo shoots, i would ask, sounds like OP overstepped boundaries broke her trust and now she is showing him what that feels like. Why is everyone glossing over the unwanted photography, was it nude, when she was changing, etc?


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> They're having sex. Regularly. She only " needs more time" so she can see if her new relationship works. If it does, she's gone. If it fails, you're Plan B.


I read this and it breaks my heart. I know you're right. Why am I still wanting to work this out knowing she is regularly having sex with him? 

She asked this weekend, why I still wanted her. I told her I felt she was my soulmate. I meant what I said. I ask myself everyday, why I continue to let her ruin me emotionally. She doesn't want to talk about us. She dreads me picking up the kids because I want to talk it through. She said she needs time. It's been 6 months. 

I can't bring myself to expose and file the D. it hurts too much to know I've lost her.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

aine said:


> What type of photo shoots, i would ask, sounds like OP overstepped boundaries broke her trust and now she is showing him what that feels like. Why is everyone glossing over the unwanted photography, was it nude, when she was changing, etc?


Yes I broke her trust. No, I never watched the models changed. And as said before, they weren't back to back nude shoots. Each one occurred years apart. 

Unlike her A now which she sees him at every opportunity. At least that's what I think.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

I will tell right now if you file she will either want to work this out or she will move on what you giving her is the right to screw around and keep you paying the bills, stop being a doormat and man up. you seriously need to take control of the situation and stop acting like a tool. you have serious been emasculated.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

aine said:


> What type of photo shoots, i would ask, sounds like OP overstepped boundaries broke her trust and now she is showing him what that feels like. Why is everyone glossing over the unwanted photography, was it nude, when she was changing, etc?


Two wrongs do not make it right. In fact, it makes it worse as we see here.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Let's not conflate his unauthorized photo shoots with her full-on sex with another man. No, junomech should not have lied. But an affair is not the appropriate punishment. 

junomech, at this point your best bet is to go scorched earth on her. Inform her family as well as your own. If this man is married or in any kind of relationship, expose it to his partner. File for divorce and have her served formally. You take control of the reins from this day forward. Get a court order stating that she cannot introduce your children to any new men for a period of X weeks. Stop pouring your heart out to her with all the soulmate talk. Even if you feel that way, you need to play this coldly. Right now she feels comfortable in the affair, knowing that she has you as a backup plan. Filing for divorce will pull that foundation out from underneath her and make her face some harsh reality: embarrassment in front of family, limited time with her children, loss of some financial security.

It may drive her closer to the other man--this is a risk. But this might cause him to pull away from her as she becomes dependent on him for a deep emotional relationship that he never intended to have. In any case, you cannot allow her to continue to sit on the fence. It shows you as weak in her eyes. She loses respect and interest in you every time you do. If anything, so her that you'll be just fine without her.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

Tatsuhiko said:


> Let's not conflate his unauthorized photo shoots with her full-on sex with another man. No, junomech should not have lied. But an affair is not the appropriate punishment.
> 
> junomech, at this point your best bet is to go scorched earth on her. Inform her family as well as your own. If this man is married or in any kind of relationship, expose it to his partner. File for divorce and have her served formally. You take control of the reins from this day forward. Get a court order stating that she cannot introduce your children to any new men for a period of X weeks. Stop pouring your heart out to her with all the soulmate talk. Even if you feel that way, you need to play this coldly. Right now she feels comfortable in the affair, knowing that she has you as a backup plan. Filing for divorce will pull that foundation out from underneath her and make her face some harsh reality: embarrassment in front of family, limited time with her children, loss of some financial security.
> 
> It may drive her closer to the other man--this is a risk. But this might cause him to pull away from her as she becomes dependent on him for a deep emotional relationship that he never intended to have. In any case, you cannot allow her to continue to sit on the fence. It shows you as weak in her eyes. She loses respect and interest in you every time you do. If anything, so her that you'll be just fine without her.


It is a risk because the guy she's seeing, according to her, was her best friend in high school. Someone I never heard about till this past October.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

Divorce sounds so final and extreme. She's said she needs more time. I want to give it to her the time she needs. It's the least I can do after the stuff I put her through. Am I wrong for that?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

junomech said:


> These photoshoots were mainly female models with a male model thrown in a couple of times. The majority of the model photoshoots were fashion/editorial and beauty/glamor. The locations of the photoshoots varied from my un-leased condo that me and brother own to my home studio to on-locations (downtown, warehouse district, etc). Sometimes I was alone with the model and sometimes a makeup artist and hairstylist was on set. As far as time, photoshoots would last no more than 2 hours. I hate idle time on photoshoots. I prefer to get in and get out. I don't need to take a million pictures of each look. More time behind the camera equals twice as much time behind the computer editing photos.


Why did your wife object to these photo shoots?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

junomech said:


> I read this and it breaks my heart. I know you're right. Why am I still wanting to work this out knowing she is regularly having sex with him?
> 
> She asked this weekend, why I still wanted her. I told her I felt she was my soulmate. I meant what I said. I ask myself everyday, why I continue to let her ruin me emotionally. She doesn't want to talk about us. She dreads me picking up the kids because I want to talk it through. She said she needs time. It's been 6 months.
> 
> I can't bring myself to expose and file the D. it hurts too much to know I've lost her.


Get the book "Surviving an Affair" by Willard F. Jr. Harley & Jennifer Harley Chalmers

Do what the book says to do. It a plan and explains the reasons behind each thing it says to do.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

junomech said:


> Divorce sounds so final and extreme. She's said she needs more time. I want to give it to her the time she needs. It's the least I can do after the stuff I put her through. Am I wrong for that?


It sounds to me like she does not believe that those photo shoots were just fashion shoots. You said that there was a nude, some semi nudes, etc. Plus you kept them secret from her. There would be no reason to keep them secret if they were on the up and up. At least that is probably what she is thinking. Is that what she has told you she thinks went on?

If you read the book I posted above, it will answer a lot of your questions.


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## Ckone1800 (Jul 13, 2015)

junomech said:


> Divorce sounds so final and extreme. She's said she needs more time. I want to give it to her the time she needs. It's the least I can do after the stuff I put her through. Am I wrong for that?




If you want to give her time, then also give her freedom. What you are doing now is giving her your permission to build emotion bonds and have sex outside of your marriage. 

If you end up back together, you will have no power to squash future infidelity. You cannot take back power you've already given away. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ckone1800 (Jul 13, 2015)

Duplicate. Sorry.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Why did your wife object to these photo shoots?


TBH, that question has been asked by me many times. Every time the answer is "I already told you!". She did once, years ago. I can't quite remember the answer. I can only guess now. Jealousy, insecurity, untrustworthy. But I think it was simple, "Because I told you No!" No explanation. 

If I try to ask her now, the answer above will be her response. 

I feel like I was pretty much an open book before that 1st nude shoot. A few months prior to the nude shoot, I asked her what she thought about me doing an artful nude shoot. I was careful in explaining it, showing her samples, the potential models, and ensuring a 3rd person would be present. It was a quick "No" from her.

The shoots I had before that 1st nude shoot were pretty much fashion and beauty/glamor. I was still learning my craft.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

junomech said:


> A little backstory. Let me first say, I blame myself for my wife's infidelity. I broke her heart and trust when I continued to do photoshoots she didn't want me to do. I tried to justify to myself that the photoshoots were infrequent (years apart) and I made sure they were strictly professional. But the reality is, she said no and I did them anyway. This all started 5 years go. Thinking back, the photoshoots weren't repetitious. Of course, I did each one without her knowledge. I would get caught, she would be very upset, I would apologize, then maybe a year or two later I would do another. That was the pattern.
> 
> Last Oct (2016), I saw texts from my wife to a guy she reconnected with through Facebook that was pretty obvious of a relationship. After some questioning, she admitted to having a one-night stand with him.
> 
> ...



Your problem is, you are blaming yourself for something she is doing. Did you ever cheat on her, no. She is the one cheating. 

Why did you move out. Really messed up doing that. If she wanted this new relationship she need to leave. Move back in. Tell her it is her turn to live away from the kids. Let her know that if she wants the new guy she can go live with him.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> It sounds to me like she does not believe that those photo shoots were just fashion shoots. You said that there was a nude, some semi nudes, etc. Plus you kept them secret from her. There would be no reason to keep them secret if they were on the up and up. At least that is probably what she is thinking. Is that what she has told you she thinks went on?
> 
> If you read the book I posted above, it will answer a lot of your questions.


I kept them from her because she said no and I wanted to do them anyway. When she did find out, I showed her all the proofs. There was nothing to hide after the fact. I showed her the communication between me and the model before and after the photoshoots. I wanted her to see that the whole process was professional. 

When we discuss the shoots now (they always come up), she thinks I was fooling around with the models. I don't know if she is just using that an excuse now or if she really believes I was having A's with these models. 

I invited her to numerous shoots. I wanted her to see how I worked on shoots. I wanted her to be more involved. She didn't want to.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

junomech said:


> Her parent don't know yet. She was going to tell on Mother's day but ended up not telling them. She told her sister that we're separated. Nothing more.


Why not. Read No More Mr Nice Guy. 

Let the parents know on both sides. 

Move back into your home.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

junomech said:


> I know...I know...Like I said, I am blaming myself.
> 
> The photoshoots consisted of artful nude, implied nude, & boudoir. And here is me justifying them. I only ever did one artful nude and made sure she brought an escort. I think I did 2 implied nude shoots, and about 4 boudoirs in the span of 5 years.


So what is the problem here?

It's not like it's sex acts you are photographing. Your wife used this as an excuse.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

ABHale said:


> Why not. Read No More Mr Nice Guy.
> 
> Let the parents know on both sides.
> 
> Move back into your home.


This one? No More Mr Nice Guy


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

junomech said:


> Divorce sounds so final and extreme. She's said she needs more time. I want to give it to her the time she needs. It's the least I can do after the stuff I put her through. Am I wrong for that?


She needs you to be a man about this. 

Stand up for yourself and be a man she can look up to not some lost puppy.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

junomech said:


> This one? No More Mr Nice Guy


Yes


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Also read up on the 180. Stop talking unless it has to do with the kids. 

MOVE back into you home. Never leave your home and kids. Big mistake on your part. She might be able to use against you in a divorce.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

ABHale said:


> She needs you to be a man about this.
> 
> Stand up for yourself and be a man she can look up to not some lost puppy.


So the "man" thing to do is file the D? What are some things I can do that are "manly" before the D?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

junomech said:


> So the "man" thing to do is file the D? What are some things I can do that are "manly" before the D?


I did not say that. 

If that is what it ends with so be it. 

The marriages that survived the affairs are the ones where the Betrayed Spouse was willing to lose the marriage to save it.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Man up means standing up for yourself and not letting her dictate what happens. 

You never cheated. 

She is cheating now and will not stop unless you change yourself. 

First thing, move back into your home. Tell her if she still continues contact with the OM she can leave, that you will no longer support her while she is cheating.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

If she wants a divorce she can file. 

Separate finances. 

Let the families know what is going on. 

You never need to file if don't want to. 

Move back into your home.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

junomech said:


> I told her I felt she was my soulmate.
> 
> She doesn't want to talk about us. She dreads me picking up the kids because I want to talk it through.
> 
> ...


Junomech,

I'll be up front with you. You've already lost her. And you keep digging the hole deeper and deeper. She's lost all respect and attraction for you because keep playing the "pick me" game. The more you chase her the further she gets away.

She cheated on you and she's still cheating. Those photo shoots don't have a damn thing to do with why she is doing this. She cheats because she wants to and because she is morally bankrupt. End of story. She want's more time because she knows you'll be waiting in the wings if her A doesn't work out.

Where is your anger?

I don't know if she'll ever turn around. I doubt it. But if she does, it will because you earned back her respect. Not because you begged her back. And if you're lucky, if or when she does turn around, you won't even want her back.

Implement the 180 to detach. Meet with an attorney and start the divorce process. Have her served ASAP. Separate your finances. Make an exit plan. Expose her to family and close friends. STOP contacting her unless absolutely necessary for the children.

Then wait and see what happens. A divorce takes months. In the mean time, get some counseling and lean on friends and family. Take care of yourself and exercise.

Keep posting for advice. You will be okay no matter what the final outcome.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I'm not even touching this one.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

junomech, when you file for divorce, the process takes many months to complete. It can be reversed at any point if she shows sufficient remorse. The act of filing shows that you mean business and are not to be trifled with.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

So let's say I tell her parents and immediate family. Will that seem like I am desperate now and grasping straws? After reading all the comments, I am coming to accept that this may very well be over. I don't want to seem weak anymore even though I've cried the past 2 hours re-reading all the comments?

I also want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I sincerely appreciate everyone's input.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> I'm not even touching this one.


Nothing to touch really. They are divorced already for all intents and purposes. Or at least the wife is acting as if that is her impression. It just seems like someone forgot to file the paperwork is all...


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

junomech said:


> So let's say I tell her parents and immediate family. Will that seem like I am desperate now and grasping straws? After reading all the comments, I am coming to accept that this may very well be over. I don't want to seem weak anymore even though I've cried the past 2 hours re-reading all the comments?
> 
> I also want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I sincerely appreciate everyone's input.


No it won't make you seem weak if you tell them quickly, calmly and factually what happened. It keeps her from re-writing your marital history behind your back and more importantly, her exposure is one of the necessary consequences of being a cheater. 

She'll be pissed at you. So what. To not do so is to rug sweep it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

junomech said:


> I know...I know...Like I said, I am blaming myself.
> 
> The photoshoots consisted of artful nude, implied nude, & boudoir. And here is me justifying them. I only ever did one artful nude and made sure she brought an escort. I think I did 2 implied nude shoots, and about 4 boudoirs in the span of 5 years.


I would be pretty annoyed if my husband took photos of naked women as well, especially when he had promised to stop. However, she is now cheating (and of course they have sex),and maybe she is wanting you as plan b. I think you made a massive mistake by moving out, I think you need to get your stuff and move back in.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

junomech said:


> TBH, that question has been asked by me many times. Every time the answer is "I already told you!". She did once, years ago. I can't quite remember the answer. I can only guess now. Jealousy, insecurity, untrustworthy. But I think it was simple, "Because I told you No!" No explanation.
> 
> If I try to ask her now, the answer above will be her response.
> 
> ...


Would you have been ok with her taking photos of naked men?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

junomech said:


> These photoshoots were mainly female models with a male model thrown in a couple of times. The majority of the model photoshoots were fashion/editorial and beauty/glamor. The locations of the photoshoots varied from my un-leased condo that me and brother own to my home studio to on-locations (downtown, warehouse district, etc). Sometimes I was alone with the model and sometimes a makeup artist and hairstylist was on set. As far as time, photoshoots would last no more than 2 hours. I hate idle time on photoshoots. I prefer to get in and get out. I don't need to take a million pictures of each look. More time behind the camera equals twice as much time behind the computer editing photos.


That was completely inappropriate for a married man.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

You hid the fact that you were in a room with naked women who were posing for you. You did this repeatedly, after your wife told you she was not ok with it. 

You hurt your wife. You both have poor boundaries around the opposite sex. 

If my husband did this, I'd be confused, hurt, and have to live with the fact that he was willing to hurt me and break the trust in our marriage. It would damage how I feel about him and our marriage. 

Your wife is losing her love for you, which is why she's turning to another man outside of your marriage. This doesn't excuse her affair, but you are right that you betrayed her first.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

You, as a married man, wanted to take naked pictures of other women. Your wife was not ok with it, so you lied and did it anyway.

So you've already shown that you can't be trusted. Sure, once your wife found out you apologized and showed her texts, but so what? What if you deleted communications? You can't be trusted.

And this has happened more then once, so clearly taking naked pictures of other women is worth lying to your wife.

Its true that your wife sleeping with another man is a huge overreaction to this and not justified. She needs to stop speaking to this guy.

But if i was your wife not only would I not believe you only took pictures but also that you have every intention of doing it again. 

Clearly neither one of you can be trusted.

I can't believe that the posters here railing on his wife would be ok with a wife taking pictures of naked men and lying about it. Nobody would believe that's all it was. 

So why was your wife not more important then taking naked pics of other women? Have you ever been unfaithful to her?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You do realise she'd have had to use another excuse for cheating on you?

1) My husband watches TV all the time
2) My husband doesn't understand me
3) My husband blah, blah, blah

You should not have lied to her, but cheating on you because of this?

That's not a valid response.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Would you have been ok with her taking photos of naked men?


Is his wife a photographer?

If not, then I am struggling to find the relevance here?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> You do realise she'd have had to use another excuse for cheating on you?
> 
> 1) My husband watches TV all the time
> 2) My husband doesn't understand me
> ...


While i agree that it's not a valid response, I don't see how my husband watches tv all the time and my hb takes naked photos of other women knowing I'm not ok with it and lies about it are comparable.

Doesn't even look like he made any money. He did it because he wanted to. Not ok for a married man.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

junomech said:


> So the "man" thing to do is file the D? What are some things I can do that are "manly" before the D?



Stop baby sitting the kids while she sleeps with her boyfriend (handholding -- really? c'mon man) . Move back home and tell her to move out and stay with her lover while you file for divorce. I am sorry you are going through this.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> While i agree that it's not a valid response, I don't see how my husband watches tv all the time and my hb takes naked photos of other women knowing I'm not ok with it and lies about it are comparable.
> 
> Doesn't even look like he made any money. He did it because he wanted to. Not ok for a married man.


:iagree:

He's a WEDDING photographer, guys- not a boudoir/playboy photographer. His wife never agreed to an arrangement where he spends his working day with naked women posing for him.

We trade certain freedoms when we get married, including the freedom to do whatever we want around naked members of the opposite sex. If the OP wanted an independent relationship where he can do whatever he wants, despite knowing it hurts his wife, instead of hiding it from her, he should have discussed this arrangement with her beforehand so she knew what she was getting into (and could take the liberties to do the same herself, which it seems she is).

This is an arrangement I would never agree to in my marriage, ever. It seems the OP's wife feels the same way. But since he went ahead and did it anyway, she now feels she is entitled to spend her time doing whatever SHE wants, including hanging around a naked man. 

This is what happens when you decide to live independently in your marriage and do whatever you want around the opposite sex, and hide it from your spouse.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> While i agree that it's not a valid response, I don't see how my husband watches tv all the time and my hb takes naked photos of other women knowing I'm not ok with it and lies about it are comparable.
> 
> Doesn't even look like he made any money. He did it because he wanted to. Not ok for a married man.


Photographers often do free work, this is for a number of reasons, trying different techniques, testing equipment, entering competitions, etc.

Gotta tell your wife or husband, though!


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

junomech said:


> So let's say I tell her parents and immediate family. Will that seem like I am desperate now and grasping straws? After reading all the comments, I am coming to accept that this may very well be over. I don't want to seem weak anymore even though wI've cried the past 2 hours re-reading all the comments?
> 
> I also want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I sincerely appreciate everyone's input.


All you're doing is helping them hide their affair. You are letting your weakness define you. Extremely unattractive and lowers your respect and status down to zero.

Like most betrayed spouses you are trying to blame yourself because you just don't see how she could do this. In essence you're making excuses for her behavior. There isn't any. She's having a sexual affair because she wants to. 

Moving out of your house was the worse thing you could've done. Get back in it!!!!!

Show some strength. You can't do anything until the affair end.

Full exposure to everyone at once without warning. This should have already been done.

You are laying back hoping it all goes away or fixes itself. 

You'd better wake the hell up!!!!! Or file D and move on with your life.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Jessica38 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> He's a WEDDING photographer, guys- not a boudoir/playboy photographer. His wife never agreed to an arrangement where he spends his working day with naked women posing for him.
> 
> ...


He is mainly a wedding photographer, which means that is his bread-and-butter work, but he does other stuff when a booking comes in.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> He is mainly a wedding photographer, which means that is his bread-and-butter work, but he does other stuff when a booking comes in.


He does not have to do "other stuff" that his wife does not agree to. A DJ who spins at weddings does not need to take additional gigs at a strip club or swingers' party. A group yoga instructor doesn't need to book private partner yoga lessons in a hotel room when offered. A bartender at an upscale restaurant doesn't need to take up an offer to mix drinks at a club after hours, if his wife is not ok with it. When you're married, your spouse has a right to know where you are and who you are with, and if she doesn't agree, you don't do it anyways and hide it from her.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> He does not have to do "other stuff" that his wife does not agree to. A DJ who spins at weddings does not need to take additional gigs at a strip club or swingers' party. A group yoga instructor doesn't need to book private partner yoga lessons in a hotel room when offered. A bartender at an upscale restaurant doesn't need to take up an offer to mix drinks at a club after hours, if his wife is not ok with it. When you're married, your spouse has a right to know where you are and who you are with, and if she doesn't agree, you don't do it anyways and hide it from her.


I'm sure he didn't agree to her screwing another guy.

Why are you trying to justify cheating under these scenarios?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Jessica38 said:


> He does not have to do "other stuff" that his wife does not agree to. A DJ who spins at weddings does not need to take additional gigs at a strip club or swingers' party. A group yoga instructor doesn't need to book private partner yoga lessons in a hotel room when offered. A bartender at an upscale restaurant doesn't need to take up an offer to mix drinks at a club after hours, if his wife is not ok with it. When you're married, your spouse has a right to know where you are and who you are with, and if she doesn't agree, you don't do it anyways and hide it from her.


He was an idiot. She is a cheater.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> He was an idiot. She is a cheater.


I'll also add that he was an idiot who repeatedly broke his wife's trust.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

manwithnoname said:


> I'm sure he didn't agree to her screwing another guy.
> 
> Why are you trying to justify cheating under these scenarios?


I'm not at all. There is no excuse for cheating. I'm pointing out that he broke his wife's trust, repeatedly. It damaged the marriage. I do think this is important to consider here. In no way do I think he's justified to lie repeatedly to his wife while spending time with naked women simply because he's a wedding photographer who takes on extra assignments. He broke his wife's trust. She could be so hurt she can't see straight. I know I would be.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Jessica38 said:


> I'll also add that he was an idiot who repeatedly broke his wife's trust.


That was the point I was making.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

manwithnoname said:


> I'm sure he didn't agree to her screwing another guy.
> 
> Why are you trying to justify cheating under these scenarios?


This is TAM, don't even go there. He broke trust so, every act is now equal. Just move along.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

I can't believe we've been led on this ridiculous tangent about whether it's okay to photograph nude women. He's a photographer. He wants to build his portfolio and gain experience in a competitive business. It doesn't matter whether he was paid or not. The is that he deceived her about performing the work. And that deception led her to believe that there was more involved that just photography. But let's be clear: his wife's deception was far, far worse than anything he did to her. 

junomech, please ignore all the noise in here about the propriety of photographing nude women. Every day women and men are photographed, painted, and sculpted in the nude. Artists and most people living in the 21st century know this, but some commenters like to return to 19th century mores when it suits their gender bias. 

The purpose of exposing to her family is so that they understand the real reasons for a potential divorce, not her sugarcoated reasons for it ("We grew apart", etc.). Her family's expression of shame over her behavior might serve to wake her up.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

junomech said:


> A little backstory. Let me first say, I blame myself for my wife's infidelity. I broke her heart and trust when I continued to do photoshoots she didn't want me to do. I tried to justify to myself that the photoshoots were infrequent (years apart) and I made sure they were strictly professional. But the reality is, she said no and I did them anyway. This all started 5 years go. Thinking back, the photoshoots weren't repetitious. Of course, I did each one without her knowledge. I would get caught, she would be very upset, I would apologize, then maybe a year or two later I would do another. That was the pattern.
> 
> Last Oct (2016), I saw texts from my wife to a guy she reconnected with through Facebook that was pretty obvious of a relationship. After some questioning, she admitted to having a one-night stand with him.
> 
> ...


I haven't read any of the responses yet. Let me just say this now:

STOP IT!

Get that ridiculous notion that you are to blame for her choosing to cheat on you! You may be responsible for lying about the photoshoots, but how on earth does that justify her cheating on you? Again, STOP THIS. 

Next, stop playing the "pick me dance". Detach! She won't respect you for being a doormat. 

Third. File for divorce now. You can always stop the divorce before it's finalized, but why would you?

She's having sex with this guy. Don't buy her claim that they only kiss. Bull feathers. 

-10th Engineer Harrison


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> I'm not at all. *There is no excuse for cheating.* I'm pointing out that he broke his wife's trust, repeatedly. It damaged the marriage. I do think this is important to consider here. In no way do I think he's justified to lie repeatedly to his wife while spending time with naked women simply because he's a wedding photographer who takes on extra assignments. He broke his wife's trust. She could be so hurt she can't see straight. I know I would be.


I agree that he should not have lied repeatedly the way he did. But she could have ended the marriage when he kept doing it, instead of cheating. I still see justification in this post.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This is TAM, don't even go there. He broke trust so, every act is now equal. Just move along.


I need to move along because you don't like my post? :wtf:


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

junomech said:


> Yes I broke her trust. No, I never watched the models changed. And as said before, they weren't back to back nude shoots. Each one occurred years apart.
> 
> Unlike her A now which she sees him at every opportunity. At least that's what I think.


Get this: this has NOTHING to do with her affair. Period.

She's cheating on you because she wants to, not because you took pics of models.

-10th Engineer Harrison


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

tatsuhiko said:


> i can't believe we've been led on this ridiculous tangent about whether it's okay to photograph nude women. He's a photographer. He wants to build his portfolio and gain experience in a competitive business. It doesn't matter whether he was paid or not. The is that he deceived her about performing the work. And that deception led her to believe that there was more involved that just photography. But let's be clear: His wife's deception was far, far worse than anything he did to her.
> 
> Junomech, please ignore all the noise in here about the propriety of photographing nude women. Every day women and men are photographed, painted, and sculpted in the nude. Artists and most people living in the 21st century know this, but some commenters like to return to 19th century mores when it suits their gender bias.
> 
> The purpose of exposing to her family is so that they understand the real reasons for a potential divorce, not her sugarcoated reasons for it ("we grew apart", etc.). Her family's expression of shame over her behavior might serve to wake her up.




*^This^*


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Not justifying, just pointing out that BOTH spouses in this marriage have poor boundaries with the OS and BOTH have caused significant damage. Trying to help the OP, who knows this, keep in mind that repairing the marriage goes deeper than the typical protocol in Surviving an Affair (which I'm usually the first to recommend). The history in the marriage shows that both are doing destructive things in the marriage (poor boundaries with the OS, breaking trust, etc.). 

If the OP wants to save the marriage, the independent behavior, lying, and his wife's cheating needs to stop, and both will need to learn how to implement precautions to keep history from repeating itself.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

junomech said:


> She asked this weekend, why I still wanted her. I told her I felt she was my soulmate. I meant what I said.


Man, I remember saying stupid things like this after d-day. There is NO SUCH THING as a soulmate. There is, however, a such thing as an @$$holemate (your WW and her OM).

-10th Engineer Harrison


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

junomech said:


> Divorce sounds so final and extreme. She's said she needs more time. I want to give it to her the time she needs. It's the least I can do after the stuff I put her through. Am I wrong for that?


Yes, you are.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Get the book "Surviving an Affair" by Willard F. Jr. Harley & Jennifer Harley Chalmers
> 
> Do what the book says to do. It a plan and explains the reasons behind each thing it says to do.


I have that book. I will burn it before I let another BH read it. I'd like to recommend Frank Pittman's "Private Lies" and "Grow Up". Others will chime in with their recommendations for BH's reading material. You need to become personally secure and confident. Forget about your lost marriage until you can get yourself firmly on your own emotional 2 feet.

-10th Engineer Harrison.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Tatsuhiko said:


> I can't believe we've been led on this ridiculous tangent about whether it's okay to photograph nude women. He's a photographer. He wants to build his portfolio and gain experience in a competitive business. It doesn't matter whether he was paid or not. The is that he deceived her about performing the work. And that deception led her to believe that there was more involved that just photography. But let's be clear: his wife's deception was far, far worse than anything he did to her.
> 
> junomech, please ignore all the noise in here about the propriety of photographing nude women. Every day women and men are photographed, painted, and sculpted in the nude. Artists and most people living in the 21st century know this, but some commenters like to return to 19th century mores when it suits their gender bias.
> 
> The purpose of exposing to her family is so that they understand the real reasons for a potential divorce, not her sugarcoated reasons for it ("We grew apart", etc.). Her family's expression of shame over her behavior might serve to wake her up.


Yes, it is ridiculous to admit that you broke your wife's trust by lying to her when you spent hours with naked women posing for you in the name of your "art." There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with lying to your wife REPEATEDLY because hey....you're an _artist_! You should be able to spend time in the company of naked women and if your wife doesn't like it, heck, she doesn't NEED to know because you're an _artist_! 

And if your wife is spending time naked in a hotel room alone with a man and assisting him in partner poses, you have no right to know or care because hey...she's a yoga teacher! It's her work! If you don't like it, that's ok, she can just lie to you so you won't even have to know! Men and women have been getting naked together for centuries...in fact, they've been cheating on each other for centuries too! So that makes it ALL ok! 

If your wife decides to dance naked on a pole, you shouldn't mind one bit! Women have been dancing naked for centuries! She is a _dancer_, so why should you mind if she dabbles in erotic dancing on the side here and there...oh you don't like it? That's ok, she can just LIE to you about where she's going when she takes her clothes off for the pleasure of other men. I mean after all, women have been doing it for centuries! It's totally acceptable and if YOU don't like it, suck it up! It's her art!

When a person is selfish, entitled, and doesn't care about the hurt and pain they cause others, and will lie to continue doing what they want to do, it doesn't matter if you justify it by calling it "art" or anything else...you damage the marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

junomech said:


> I kept them from her because she said no and I wanted to do them anyway. When she did find out, I showed her all the proofs. There was nothing to hide after the fact. I showed her the communication between me and the model before and after the photoshoots. I wanted her to see that the whole process was professional.
> 
> *When we discuss the shoots now (they always come up), she thinks I was fooling around with the models. I don't know if she is just using that an excuse now or if she really believes I was having A's with these models. *
> 
> I invited her to numerous shoots. I wanted her to see how I worked on shoots. I wanted her to be more involved. She didn't want to.


That's my guess. She thinks that you cheated each time. 

I would bet that if a female photographer came on here and said that she snuck off to do photo shoots of nude and semi-nude men she would be accused of cheating and lying to cover it up by just about everyone on this forum. 

I'm not saying that you did cheat. I'm saying that I can understand why your wife would think that you did cheat.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Get the book "Surviving an Affair" by Willard F. Jr. Harley & Jennifer Harley Chalmers
> 
> Do what the book says to do. It a plan and explains the reasons behind each thing it says to do.


Here's a preview video of things you'll learn about in the book.

{don't try to get your wife to watch this}

Can you move back home? There's no court order preventing it, right? If she wants to go, the front door is open but never leave your home unless the police make you.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> I'll also add that he was an idiot who repeatedly broke his wife's trust.


Okay, and she is an idiot who is still cheating on him.

This relationship is in the toilet. Time to wipe and flush.

-10th Engineer Harrison.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

junomech said:


> So let's say I tell her parents and immediate family. Will that seem like I am desperate now and grasping straws? After reading all the comments, I am coming to accept that this may very well be over. I don't want to seem weak anymore even though I've cried the past 2 hours re-reading all the comments?
> 
> I also want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I sincerely appreciate everyone's input.


Did you get the book that I suggested--Surviving an Affair? It answers all these questions that you are asking.

For example it explains why you have to expose and what you need to say when you do expose. 

It tells what she has to do to end the affair and go no contact.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Also~ saw you have 4 kids so I presume some are old enough to be told the truth about their lives

{also ~ don't leave telling her parents or the kids to her cause she'll just spin it by saying things like "we grew apart" or "sometimes daddy's and mommy's stop loving one another but we'll always love you kids" ~ that bullcrap. If she really loved her kids she wouldn't be destroying their family and security. 

Here's a thread that was linked to damagedguy over at MB just yesterday about exposing to the kids and Dr. Hartley's advice about that:

Exposing to Children - Marriage Builders® Forums

We can help you plan this. You've really made this hard by waiting so long to reach out for advice but with swift action you just might get a chance to save your marriage. The question comes down to the unfortunate fact that experience tells us that guys that roll over this much at the beginning usually have a tough time taking tough advice and are just unwilling to do a full exposure without any forewarning, snoop and hold their wayward spouse accountable, effectively insist on "no contact" and other things necessary to bust up the affair and get things back on track.

The ONLY way to work on your marriage is to get OM out of it. At this point, your wife probably won't end it herself so going after him by exposing to his family, his friends, his coworkers, his hometown {since they grew up together}, his minister, every person he's ever interacted with on facebook or other social media is the best way to get him out of her life.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

Quality said:


> Here's a preview video of things you'll learn about in the book.
> 
> {don't try to get your wife to watch this}
> 
> ...


I will concede that this book might be helpful to a BS who's a conservative Christian and needs someone to tell them what to do, rather than expect them to think for themselves. For the rest of the planet? Not so much. Of course, the OP's religiosity or lack thereof is unknown at this point (and should stay there if that's what he wants).

Willard Harley and his forum helped convince me that I really am an atheist.

-10th Engineer Harrison.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> They're having sex. Regularly. She only " needs more time" so she can see if her new relationship works. If it does, she's gone. If it fails, you're Plan B.


Plan B...

Until a new dude posoms up in her peripheral vision.

She has no reason to come back. All her eggs, her uterus and Fallopian tubes are in one basket. And that basket is in another man's hands.
She has thrown caution to the winds.

The funny thing about our alphabet.

It is led by alpha's as in plan A.

And it has to get to Z, before it starts over.

Just Sayin'


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Quality said:


> Also~ saw you have 4 kids so I presume some are old enough to be told the truth about their lives
> 
> {also ~ don't leave telling her parents or the kids to her cause she'll just spin it by saying things like "we grew apart" or "sometimes daddy's and mommy's stop loving one another but we'll always love you kids" ~ that bullcrap. If she really loved her kids she wouldn't be destroying their family and security.
> 
> ...


Great advice. I'd also recommend full transparency to make sure she's no longer in contact with the OM. You might also want to offer her full transparency of your devices as well. IMO, trust needs to be restablished on both sides in this marriage if it will have any chance of recovery.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

A different perspective on the Reconciliation Industrial Complex: https://www.chumplady.com/2014/02/m...lace-to-be-and-other-reconciliation-nonsense/


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

10th Engineer Harrison said:


> A different perspective on the Reconciliation Industrial Complex: https://www.chumplady.com/2014/02/m...lace-to-be-and-other-reconciliation-nonsense/


She is an excellent writer- I don't know how she turns infidelity into entertainment but she is the best place for betrayed spouses who have no intention of reconciling. Her post on her mother-in-law's defense of her son's cheating is by far one of the funniest pieces of writing I've come across in a long time.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

10th Engineer Harrison said:


> There is, however, a such thing as an @$$holemate (your WW and her OM).
> 
> -10th Engineer Harrison


That was a good one. Yoink! (the sound of grabbing something and stealing away with it)


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> She is an excellent writer- I don't know how she turns infidelity into entertainment but she is the best place for betrayed spouses who have no intention of reconciling. Her post on her mother-in-law's defense of her son's cheating is by far one of the funniest pieces of writing I've come across in a long time.


Chumpcheater isn't a great place for anyone. Feeding and inciting anger, vindictiveness and upset for profit isn't cathartic ~ it's pathetic. Certainly, the OP doesn't need to read her crap. She not a professional and she has no idea how to recover anything.

You are aware that Tracy is a typical madhatter {most typically someone who was wayward and then a betrayed spouse}. She cheated on her first husband then when the tables get predictably turned on her in her second marriage she goes ballistic about it. Cheating is only wrong when it's done to them whereas when the madhatter does it ~ it's always justifiable.

For those interested ~ here's my thread using the Universal Bull Detector on one of Tracy's blog posts where she reveals the details of cheating on her first husband.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/347642-now-its-chumpcheaterladys-turn-face-ubt.html


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

OP, how was your relationship before all of this started? And separately from the photo shoot issue.

Did you have a good sex life?

We're there other issues that regularly came up? 

Did you both feel in love with each other? If yes, what kind of evidence or memories make you feel that way? 

Do you feel she was a good wife? Did she feel you were a good husband?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> junomech said:
> 
> 
> > These photoshoots were mainly female models with a male model thrown in a couple of times. The majority of the model photoshoots were fashion/editorial and beauty/glamor. The locations of the photoshoots varied from my un-leased condo that me and brother own to my home studio to on-locations (downtown, warehouse district, etc). Sometimes I was alone with the model and sometimes a makeup artist and hairstylist was on set. As far as time, photoshoots would last no more than 2 hours. I hate idle time on photoshoots. I prefer to get in and get out. I don't need to take a million pictures of each look. More time behind the camera equals twice as much time behind the computer editing photos.
> ...


Nonsense! He did nothing wrong in undertaking those photo shoots, that said hiding it was certainly foolish.



junomech said:


> Yes I broke her trust. No, I never watched the models changed. And as said before, they weren't back to back nude shoots. Each one occurred years apart.
> 
> Unlike her A now which she sees him at every opportunity. At least that's what I think.


Although it's too late now you did yourself no favours by hiding this from your wife. I think in the first instance and ever after, you should have told her to stop being so uptight and get over it.

Taking pictures of people in photo shoots is not even close to cheating on someone sexually.

If I were you I would seek legal counsel and quickly divorce your morally bankrupt wife.



Diana7 said:


> Would you have been ok with her taking photos of naked men?


If she were taking photos of other naked men for art and not cheating on her husband, I can't see how that would be an issue to anyone who isn't sexually repressed.


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## Myrcenary (Apr 21, 2017)

Having grown quickly over a recent storm of my own (I have a post here), I see myself in your post. The pathetic and desperate attempts to win her back, thoughts of it being all your own fault, that gut wrenching feeling that you can't move on without her. Truth is, you are plan B. I've been there, just accept it.

I've heard the "kissing and holding hands" thing. That translates into they are having sex. Lots of sex. C'mon man. You really need to think about whether you could live with that if you guys worked things out. It will always be in the back of your head.

The photo shoots were just an excuse for her. Though YES, you should've told her!! Maybe it was what led her to do this but it's still no excuse to cheat. She should've just left instead.

If you're dead set on having a future with her, this is what you have to do. Man up. Just go silent on her, do not express your feelings. Only converse about the children. Show her (don't tell her, let her see) that you're living well. This will make you mysterious to her, and she will start to wonder and think of you, and possibly contact you more. My advice is, once (if) this happens continue to be cold and distant. I'd say even take it to the extreme, file the D. 

If she tries to reach out, don't bite at her first attempt. Make it last to the point where she's on her hands and knees and you feel she legitimately feels remorse and needs you back. She has to change and that will never happen when you're constantly in her face showing just how much you don't care that she cheated on you. You need to show her that you don't need her, and you also have to believe this yourself. Of course, don't expect her to come crawling back. But either way you won't look so pathetic in the end.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> That was a good one. Yoink! (the sound of grabbing something and stealing away with it)


No worries. I stole it from a BH on MB about 15 years back. For a BH, he sure came up with some good ones to lighten things up.

-10th Engineer Harrison.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

Quality said:


> Chumpcheater isn't a great place for anyone. Feeding and inciting anger, vindictiveness and upset for profit isn't cathartic ~ it's pathetic. Certainly, the OP doesn't need to read her crap. She not a professional and she has no idea how to recover anything.
> 
> You are aware that Tracy is a typical madhatter {most typically someone who was wayward and then a betrayed spouse}. She cheated on her first husband then when the tables get predictably turned on her in her second marriage she goes ballistic about it. Cheating is only wrong when it's done to them whereas when the madhatter does it ~ it's always justifiable.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I hadn't read that before. But now that I have, and assuming you've faithfully reproduced what she wrote... ...where did you get the impression that she's ever cheated?

-10th Engineer Harrison


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> You do realise she'd have had to use another excuse for cheating on you?
> 
> 1) My husband watches TV all the time
> 2) My husband doesn't understand me
> ...


Being alone in a room with a naked woman for any reason was a betrayal. Then his wife said she was very unhappy about it but he did it again anyway and deceived her. Her trust in him was broken. I am amazed that some of the men here think it was ok. Would you all be happy if you wife was alone in a room with a naked man? Probably not. There doesn't need to be sex for it to be a betrayal. 
I hate cheating of any sort, and both cheated and betrayed here in different ways.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

I cannot believe this thread!

You are a photographer - you need to expand your portfolio. Besides this, it appears to be your passion and you should be able to do this especially since you are not cheating and she is welcome to observe. She is being unreasonable to expect a professional photographer in the western world not to do glam shots, boudoir photography etc. Especially if he is good at it which is what you want to become.

Her cheating has nothing to do with this. It is to do with a lack of morals and and an itch in her loins! For those saying that trust needs to be established on both sides, the truth is while trust may need to be established by the OP, his wife needs to establish something much more than trust - she needs to develop morals!!!! Much harder.

You took pictures of male and female nude models at the worst and when she wouldn't give you a good valid reason not to, you did it without her knowledge. She reached out to some one she knew and fancied, shaved down there, got dressed up and perfumed up, went out, seduced him and ****ed him! And kept that from you. And probably did it much more than once - she is prepared to walk away from your marriage to continue fvcking him - so she really enjoyed doing what she did. And tried to justify her actions. Whole different ball game.

And now for what you did wrong:

YOU SHOULD NEVER HAVE LEFT THE HOUSE!! SHE IS ****ING ANOTHER MAN - SHE SHOULD HAVE LEFT!!!! GET BACK IN THE HOUSE NOW!!! Are you nuts ???? Kick her out.

The dumb things you think you did were not only not dumb but necessary to find out exactly what she is doing and lying about. Stop thinking they were dumb. 

You tracked her and the POSOM had the balls to ask YOU to leave !?!?!? WTF ?

Everyone needs to know what she is up to!!! Expose and don't worry about what she thinks. You have waited far too long. She planned and executed this deception. You need to wake up and see that.

Once you get back in the house and have secured evidence of her infidelity, protect yourself legally, file for D and do the 180 to heal yourself. You have left yourself exposed to being accused of abandonment and she could trump up a fake DV charge if you try to go back so be armed with a VAR and have friendly witnesses around.

As others have told you she and the POSOM are ****ing regularly - for you to think otherwise is ludicrous. She is not the person you think you married. Your post should have read "my wife developed an itch which she scratched and is now trying to justify it" and not about your photoshoots etc. It has nothing to do with that.


I hope this wakes you up man and that you can reclaim your balls.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> He is mainly a wedding photographer, which means that is his bread-and-butter work, but he does other stuff when a booking comes in.


No he said that he did this for free to give him 'experience'.:|:|


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

manwithnoname said:


> I'm sure he didn't agree to her screwing another guy.
> 
> Why are you trying to justify cheating under these scenarios?


Its not trying to justify cheating, it's showing that both cheated and deceived in different ways.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Tatsuhiko said:


> I can't believe we've been led on this ridiculous tangent about whether it's okay to photograph nude women. He's a photographer. He wants to build his portfolio and gain experience in a competitive business. It doesn't matter whether he was paid or not. The is that he deceived her about performing the work. And that deception led her to believe that there was more involved that just photography. But let's be clear: his wife's deception was far, far worse than anything he did to her.
> 
> junomech, please ignore all the noise in here about the propriety of photographing nude women. Every day women and men are photographed, painted, and sculpted in the nude. Artists and most people living in the 21st century know this, but some commenters like to return to 19th century mores when it suits their gender bias.
> 
> The purpose of exposing to her family is so that they understand the real reasons for a potential divorce, not her sugarcoated reasons for it ("We grew apart", etc.). Her family's expression of shame over her behavior might serve to wake her up.


There was no reason for him to do this, he admitted that he did some of these naked photo shoots for free. It's completely inappropriate for a married person to be alone in a room with a member of the opposite sex who is naked. There is no way that my husband or I would do this if we were photographers. 
This set up her lack of trust after he did it again and lied. People have been doing all sorts of wrong things for centuries, doesn't make them right. 
She is now cheating which is very wrong, but he cheated as well in a different way and rocked the trust.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Is his wife a photographer?
> 
> If not, then I am struggling to find the relevance here?


Oh ok so if you take photos its ok for you to spend hours alone in a room with a naked person. That's a good excuse.I don't care what he does, what he did was completely wrong . I would love to see the men's faces here if their wives said they were taking up photography and spending 3 or 4 hours alone in a room with a naked man. I suspect that most men here would freak. I can't believe that some men here this is in anyway OK.Its a betrayal and completely wrong.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

Sheesh. It all goes back to these photoshoots. While some were free to gain experience, others were for paying clients. Why can't some of you see past the word "nude"? Men and women browse pornography every day. Are we going to compare tasteful nude shoots to pornography? I think not. I wasn't trying to get into these models vaginas. I treat every shoot as work. I had no interest in sleeping with these people. I'm not trying to justify me lying to her about them. Understand that there are huge differences in nude shoots. They aren't all spread eagle and show everything to the camera. That's actually distasteful and actually rude to ask a working model or paying client to do anything that vulgar.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> OP, how was your relationship before all of this started? And separately from the photo shoot issue.
> 
> Did you have a good sex life?
> 
> ...


It was actually pretty well. We had an active sex life and I thought we genuinely were in love with each other. We kissed each other goodbye in the morning. We would send each other texts throughout the day. We would talk about the things that happened to each other at work. I did my best to listen to her when she had issues at work. I took up slack at home when she had to work late (cook dinner, kids homework, getting kids ready for bed). We shared responsibilities.

As far as being a good wife/husband, we did the best we could for each other. There was always room for improvement, but we made it work.

I had no idea she was falling out of love with me. She kept that pretty well hidden from.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

Update: I told her sister everything tonight. Her sister has known we've been separated since January but she didn't know the details. I plan to tell her mom and dad tomorrow evening. I am lawyering up and getting ready for the inevitable angry talk/texts from her.

I confided everything to her sister. The photoshoots, the lying, and the affair. I believe I was honest and open with everything that has happened leading up to this moment.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> There was no reason for him to do this, he admitted that he did some of these naked photo shoots for free. It's completely inappropriate for a married person to be alone in a room with a member of the opposite sex who is naked. There is no way that my husband or I would do this if we were photographers.
> This set up her lack of trust after he did it again and lied. People have been doing all sorts of wrong things for centuries, doesn't make them right.
> She is now cheating which is very wrong, but he cheated as well in a different way and rocked the trust.


Alone. Except for the two models, the make-up person, the... say! Maybe they were having an orgy!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

junomech said:


> It was actually pretty well. We had an active sex life and I thought we genuinely were in love with each other. We kissed each other goodbye in the morning. We would send each other texts throughout the day. We would talk about the things that happened to each other at work. I did my best to listen to her when she had issues at work. I took up slack at home when she had to work late (cook dinner, kids homework, getting kids ready for bed). We shared responsibilities.
> 
> As far as being a good wife/husband, we did the best we could for each other. There was always room for improvement, but we made it work.
> 
> I had no idea she was falling out of love with me. She kept that pretty well hidden from.


I wonder! I wonder if the reason she was suspicious of your photographic work because she was already cheating on you?

Cheaters often suspect their faithful spouse of cheating. It makes them feel better about their cheating.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

In any case it's all over red rover. Sorry to say but even if you get back together you will wonder about and imagine everything - you will live in the past and the future simultaneously. All of it disrupting the present.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> There was no reason for him to do this, he admitted that he did some of these naked photo shoots for free. It's completely inappropriate for a married person to be alone in a room with a member of the opposite sex who is naked. There is no way that my husband or I would do this if we were photographers.
> This set up her lack of trust after he did it again and lied. People have been doing all sorts of wrong things for centuries, doesn't make them right.
> She is now cheating which is very wrong, but he cheated as well in a different way and rocked the trust.


Professional photographers can and DO keep it professional. I've done photography a long time ago - with sexy and nude models. With or without other women or men. ie: 1 on 1.

It's a non issue when you are a pro... or someone learning the skills. And when you are LEARNING - you do the photo-shoots for FREE.

You're not photographers. And you seem to view so many things as deviant sex.


Yes, there are scammers out ther "let me take nekid photos of you" to get into pants. Its not difficult to spot the real ones from the fakes... and experienced models do know how to keep it professional.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

@junomech : the nude photoshoots have nothing to do with her cheating. It would have happened. That is just what her brain has chosen to use as the excuse to justify her actions against you.

And even if it was a possible reason why she did - and you proved otherwise. Her pride tells her "you must have cheated. Otherwise - what I did was horribly wrong". She'd rather blame YOU - than blame herself for her actions.

Who really knows.

You moving out - gave her and the OM more time to have sex and bond... it made things worse. You are here now.

Oh... the "we're just holding hands" since you moved out. That is pure 100% crap. I got a line kind of like that too.

PS: Unless you have a court order. You can go INTO YOUR HOUSE when EVER YOU WANT! AFAIK... if you find the OM there, it may be in your right to file trespassing charges against him.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> No he said that he did this for free to give him 'experience'.:|:|


That IS what professional photographers do.

I have worked with them for 30 years.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

badmemory said:


> Junomech,
> 
> I'll be up front with you. You've already lost her. And you keep digging the hole deeper and deeper. She's lost all respect and attraction for you because keep playing the "pick me" game. *The more you chase her the further she gets away.*
> 
> ...


Yeah, this.

When my ex wife left, I did the same as you (well, I never spied on her or anything) and it just served to strengthen her resolve.

There was an OM that I didn't know about at first, and I got the "I just need some time" BS.

And the reality is that that time was spent figuring out which direction she was going to go. I made it easy for her, without even knowing.

It's typical of most affairs where the person does actually leave for somebody else. Like any other relationship, it's new and exciting at first, and you're getting to know somebody. Which means they don't always work out. But they'll often keep you around as Plan B.

I have very little doubt that if the OM turned out to be a ****, she'd have come back to me. I also have little doubt that if I had completely ignored her at that time, her decision would have been much more difficult.

But instead, I went all puppy-dog on her for the first few months. Then I suddenly detached. I literally woke up one day and thought to myself, "this is stupid, what am I doing?". Then within the next couple of months, I had started dating. And lo and behold, she changed her tune. She started acting overly nice to me, asked me 20 questions about who I was dating. We still had some contact at the time because we were going through the separation and divorce process, and we had shared pets.

It's the hardest thing to do, the 180, especially when you're still hurting. It's also much easier said than done.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Neither of you acted properly in regards to the photo shoots.

For starters, you should NOT have gone behind her back. Obviously. Even though you disagreed with her, and tried to convince her it's completely professional.

That said, you tried to get it through to her that it's part of your job. Even though those were unpaid gigs, it's about practicing your craft. I know numerous professional photographers, and a few of them do nude and boudoir style photos. Two of them are women.

However, I do have to say that you mentioned at least one of the shoots, it was just you and the subject - not cool. Really no matter what kind of photography you're doing, you should always have somebody else there, or they should. From a professional standpoint in addition to a personal one. And especially if it's boudoir/nude.





junomech said:


> TBH, that question has been asked by me many times. Every time the answer is "I already told you!". She did once, years ago. I can't quite remember the answer. I can only guess now. Jealousy, insecurity, untrustworthy. But I think it was simple, "Because I told you No!" No explanation.
> 
> If I try to ask her now, the answer above will be her response.
> 
> ...





junomech said:


> I kept them from her because she said no and I wanted to do them anyway. When she did find out, I showed her all the proofs. There was nothing to hide after the fact. I showed her the communication between me and the model before and after the photoshoots. I wanted her to see that the whole process was professional.
> 
> When we discuss the shoots now (they always come up), she thinks I was fooling around with the models. I don't know if she is just using that an excuse now or if she really believes I was having A's with these models.
> 
> I invited her to numerous shoots. I wanted her to see how I worked on shoots. I wanted her to be more involved. She didn't want to.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> Being alone in a room with a naked woman for any reason was a betrayal. Then his wife said she was very unhappy about it but he did it again anyway and deceived her. Her trust in him was broken. I am amazed that some of the men here think it was ok. Would you all be happy if you wife was alone in a room with a naked man? Probably not. There doesn't need to be sex for it to be a betrayal.
> I hate cheating of any sort, and both cheated and betrayed here in different ways.


OP clearly states he was paid for some of those shoots and did others to build his portfolio and expand his demonstrable skills. Considering how much women pay to have a pro take a series of boudoir photos to give their SO's or to remember when as they age, I think OP was right to do the work. Not to mention the women who want to work in the sex industry and who need quality nudes and seminudes. OP built the skills necessary to his profession.

His wife's infidelity had nothing to do with his photo shoots. Really, it didn't. How do I know? Because if she was actually THAT upset about the shoots she'd have filed for divorce rather than cheat while trying to keep OP around as her backup plan. The shoots are merely her excuse to do with she wanted to do anyways.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Originally Posted by tatsuhiko
> i can't believe we've been led on this ridiculous tangent about whether it's okay to photograph nude women. He's a photographer. He wants to build his portfolio and gain experience in a competitive business. It doesn't matter whether he was paid or not. The is that he deceived her about performing the work. And that deception led her to believe that there was more involved that just photography. But let's be clear: His wife's deception was far, far worse than anything he did to her.
> 
> Junomech, please ignore all the noise in here about the propriety of photographing nude women. Every day women and men are photographed, painted, and sculpted in the nude. Artists and most people living in the 21st century know this, but some commenters like to return to 19th century mores when it suits their gender bias.
> ...


When my ex wife first left, I didn't know there was an OM. She told me the day she moved out to not tell anyone. She was going to her sisters, but did not want the rest of her family to know. I listened to her, and I don't know why. If her parents or brother phoned the house, I would just say she's out, and then I'd let her know that they called. That's how stupid I was.

It took a couple of months for it to come out that there was an OM. The last contact I ever had with her father, via email, I told him everything, and I mean everything, as I knew it.

Up to that point, he was cordial and helpful to me, and genuinely sad that I was not around anymore. We had had a good relationship over the years, and he continued it afterwards in regards to the separation and divorce (never got involved in the personal aspect of it all, nor did I want him to).

His daughter continually dropped the ball in regards to many things (ie. she was too busy with her 'new' life to bother with paperwork, loose ends, her taxes, etc.) and both he and I had to keep bailing her out.

In any case, both he and I reached the point where enough was enough, and I let loose on him with all her crap. He was a smart guy, I knew he already figured it out on his own, but all the same - I need somebody to hear all the details, so I did. Was the best I'd felt in months. Never heard from him again.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> You hid the fact that you were in a room with naked women who were posing for you. You did this repeatedly, after your wife told you she was not ok with it.
> 
> You hurt your wife. You both have poor boundaries around the opposite sex.
> 
> ...


I concur, your put your work and what you wanted to do before her and your marriage, this is the fall out. Trust was broken because you hid it. All the people going on about what she did seem to gloss over this fact. What she did was a very poor choice in response, two wrongs never made a right but it appears both of your boundaries and respect for one another is zero, better both of you move on and meet someone else who appreciates each of you and respects your boundaries.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Diana7 said:


> No he said that he did this for free to give him 'experience'.:|:|


Which is what photographers do. My future SIL is a photographer, and he's had to do lots of 'free' shoots so as to (1) get better and (2) get a portfolio.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

10th Engineer Harrison said:


> A different perspective on the Reconciliation Industrial Complex: https://www.chumplady.com/2014/02/m...lace-to-be-and-other-reconciliation-nonsense/


Yeah, I read it.....

And I fired my cannons.....over there.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

alexm said:


> "This is stupid, what am I doing?". Then within the next couple of months, I had started dating. *And lo and behold, she changed her tune. She started acting overly nice to me, asked me 20 questions about who I was dating.* We still had some contact at the time because we were going through the separation and divorce process, and we had shared pets.
> 
> It's the hardest thing to do, the 180, especially when you're still hurting. It's also much easier said than done.


Oh yeah..

Memories descend upon her:

The memories of her holding you, kissing you, knowing every inch of you....in detail.

Thinking to herself....is his new women pretty? Is she thinner then me? Is she better in bed than me?

The pangs of jealousy come to the surface. Initially, they are pangs of doubt, insufficiency...

Her eyes change from their original color to green eyed....

The possessiveness that she felt years ago, resurfaces.

Then, all that goes South....and from the North of Canada, North of @Hope1964, the Tundra..... the angry She-Bear comes into focus. She ambles out of her snow cave.

And the "How dare you's" burst out of her subconscious. "How dare you get a life...I hate you's" dribble off her frontal lobe and onto her chin, only to land at your feet.

Little pools of thick saliva in the hot sun, slowly evaporate.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

junomech said:


> Sheesh. It all goes back to these photoshoots. While some were free to gain experience, others were for paying clients. Why can't some of you see past the word "nude"? Men and women browse pornography every day. Are we going to compare tasteful nude shoots to pornography? I think not. I wasn't trying to get into these models vaginas. I treat every shoot as work. I had no interest in sleeping with these people. I'm not trying to justify me lying to her about them. Understand that there are huge differences in nude shoots. They aren't all spread eagle and show everything to the camera. That's actually distasteful and actually rude to ask a working model or paying client to do anything that vulgar.


But it hurt your wife, who didn't agree to this arrangement where you spend hours working with naked women. And you repeatedly did it anyway and lied to her about it. 

There was a post here a while back about a guy who was into partner acroyoga and his wife was concerned because he was spending time working 1 on 1 assisting another woman in poses. It hurt her and upset her, and he told her upfront about it. He loved this gig but realized that it wasn't worth hurting his wife.

Marriage is showing extraordinary care for your spouse. If you're doing something that hurts your spouse, you don't lie so you can continue doing it. You simply stop doing it. The fact that you continued to do it means you were willing to continue hurting your wife. That damaged the marriage. Does it excuse her cheating on you now? No. But to repair the marriage, which it sounds like you hope to do, you both need to make changes to stop doing whatever you want, even if it hurts your spouse.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, it's not about the photo shoots. It's about the "Independent Behavior" and lying about it. Have you owned up to that?


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Jessica38 said:


> But it hurt your wife, who didn't agree to this arrangement where you spend hours working with naked women. And you repeatedly did it anyway and lied to her about it.


And this would have been a reason to divorce, but still isn't an excuse to have an affair and keep OP loosely on the hook in case her new relationship fails.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> And this would have been a reason to divorce, but still isn't an excuse to have an affair and keep OP loosely on the hook in case her new relationship fails.


Agreed, but not everyone does the "right" thing, as we know well on TAM. First, a spouse is hurt, then resentment sets in. Needs stop being met because when a spouse is hurt and resentful, she's not motivated to meet needs. Spouses begin living like roommates, together for the kids. And this leaves both spouses at risk of having their needs met outside the marriage.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Jessica38 said:


> Agreed, but not everyone does the "right" thing, as we know well on TAM. First, a spouse is hurt, then resentment sets in. Needs stop being met because when a spouse is hurt and resentful, she's not motivated to meet needs. Spouses begin living like roommates, together for the kids. And this leaves both spouses at risk of having their needs met outside the marriage.


 I know this well. I had multiple affairs during my first marriage. My exH also had multiple affairs. How and why it happened doesn't change the fact that the affair is NOT, in any way, the fault of OP.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

It easy after years of reading this stuff to infer that there is much more to this photography stuff than meets the eye and if his wife were here posting about it we'd all be shredding the independent behavior, telling his wife to trust her gut and speculating that there was a lot more going on.

If I were coaching them, I'd even encourage the original poster to take a polygraph to test his willingness to back up his claims of innocence by giving his wife reassurance that nothing ever did happen at ANY of these photoshoots {or any others she may not even know about}.

On the other hand, after years of reading this stuff, it's also easy to infer that this is just another betrayed husband taking his wife's rationalizations, justifications and history rewrite to heart and taking on too much blame for her affair. Sure she didn't like him doing these kind of photoshoots but, absent the need to excuse her cheating, she was probably more of a "don't do it but if you do, just don't tell me about them because it bothers me" situation. She probably kind of understood these photo shoots were a part of a professional photographers job; and, thus, really didn't believe them to be divorce worthy or get all that furious about them {untll she needed to be}. They just became a convenient thing to blame or gaslight her betrayed husband about in hindsight while manipulating him to move out of the house, keep her behavior a secret and pre-empt him in any potential custody battle by making him the "abandoning" spouse. She can also now try to say "it was never about the OM, he was irrelevant, my marriage was over long before OM came along because my husband was controlling, neglectful, yada, yada, yada AND he took photos of naked women when I told him not to". Now that he's been moved out 6 months, she no longer needs that because she can just say she didn't start any relationship with OM in real life {online flirting and sexting won't count in her mind} until AFTER she was already separated. 

So two ends of the spectrum but for the sake of OP who is here getting advice and for his children, I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt because really he can't change what happened in the past anyway whereas his wife CAN CHANGE what she is doing in the PRESENT and we might be able to help him facilitate that {or help him facilitate a more amicable honest divorce based upon adultery and the truth instead of this fiction that OM had nothing to do with it}.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> I know this well. I had multiple affairs during my first marriage. My exH also had multiple affairs. How and why it happened doesn't change the fact that the affair is NOT, in any way, the fault of OP.


There's a difference between faulting someone for something and pointing out the conditions in the marriage that make it at a higher risk of an affair, and make it possible. In Lovebusters, for example, independent behavior, where spouses do what they want without taking their partner's feelings into consideration, and living a life without openness and honesty, is discussed as a major way to damage the marriage. An affair is the ultimate act of independent behavior. The OP was certainly guilty of committing his own acts of independent behavior, though not as extreme as an affair. 

Dr. Harley says in Lovebusters and His Needs, Her Needs that there are reasons for an affair, but no excuses. He says independent behavior in marriage will damage the marriage. His perspective makes the most sense to me so I'm sharing it here.

Gottman says something similar:

"Based on this research, Gottman has found that there are two key ingredients in the success or failure of any relationship: trust and betrayal.

“There are lots of ways to betray somebody,” says Gottman, “For example, just lying is a betrayal. Not being transparent – being hidden – is a way of betraying.”'

https://www.gottman.com/blog/trust-and-betrayal/

"It’s a fair question. It’s easy to lump “betrayal” and “infidelity” into the same bucket. Indeed, affairs, even emotional ones, require a duplicity that tears at the fabric of commitment. But the affair is never the beginning of the betrayal. It’s simply one of the possible outcomes.

No question, infidelity is the juiciest and most interesting of betrayals – that’s why you love to absorb The Good Wife and Scandal and Homeland and Grey’s Anatomy and evenBetrayal from the comfort of your living room. But, it’s not the most common, nor the most dangerous form of betrayal. 

The most damaging betrayals are the everyday ones. The ones that pile up over time as you and your partner consistently ask and answer the question,“Can I trust you?”'

https://www.gottman.com/blog/b-is-for-betrayal/


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

junomech said:


> So let's say I tell her parents and immediate family. Will that seem like I am desperate now and grasping straws? After reading all the comments, I am coming to accept that this may very well be over. I don't want to seem weak anymore even though I've cried the past 2 hours re-reading all the comments?
> 
> I also want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I sincerely appreciate everyone's input.



Do not come across as pleading with them for help. Simple tell the true so you cheating wife can not spread a lie.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

Quality said:


> It easy after years of reading this stuff to infer that there is much more to this photography stuff than meets the eye and if his wife were here posting about it we'd all be shredding the independent behavior, telling his wife to trust her gut and speculating that there was a lot more going on.
> 
> If I were coaching them, I'd even encourage the original poster to take a polygraph to test his willingness to back up his claims of innocence by giving his wife reassurance that nothing ever did happen at ANY of these photoshoots {or any others she may not even know about}.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this. I came here asking for advice on what I should do to reconcile. I've fessed up to my wrong doings and am willing to work on getting past this. She continues to see the OM with no regard to me. I think she's just leading me on even though she says she isn't. She says she misses me and thinks of me, but only when I ask. She's tired of talking about our relationship all-the-while saying she still wants to talk or keep in touch. She just doesn't want to talk about us anymore. I think I said this before, but she said she dreads me picking up the kids every other week because she knows I want to talk about us. 

Apologies for talking in circles. I just want everyone to understand that my attempts to communicate to her are failing. Any ideas to break this cycle would greatly be appreciated.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

junomech said:


> Thank you for this. I came here asking for advice on what I should do to reconcile. I've fessed up to my wrong doings and am willing to work on getting past this. She continues to see the OM with no regard to me. I think she's just leading me on even though she says she isn't. She says she misses me and thinks of me, but only when I ask. She's tired of talking about our relationship all-the-while saying she still wants to talk or keep in touch. She just doesn't want to talk about us anymore. I think I said this before, but she said she dreads me picking up the kids every other week because she knows I want to talk about us.
> 
> Apologies for talking in circles. I just want everyone to understand that my attempts to communicate to her are failing. Any ideas to break this cycle would greatly be appreciated.


Dude...the only one leading you on is you. From everything you have said, she is being pretty damned straight forward that she no longer considers herself in a romantic marital relationship with you, and that she is with the other man now. I know you don't want to hear it, but the only way to break the cycle is to remove yourself from it.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

junomech said:


> Thank you for this. I came here asking for advice on what I should do to reconcile. I've fessed up to my wrong doings and am willing to work on getting past this. She continues to see the OM with no regard to me. I think she's just leading me on even though she says she isn't. She says she misses me and thinks of me, but only when I ask. She's tired of talking about our relationship all-the-while saying she still wants to talk or keep in touch. She just doesn't want to talk about us anymore. I think I said this before, but she said she dreads me picking up the kids every other week because she knows I want to talk about us.
> 
> Apologies for talking in circles. I just want everyone to understand that my attempts to communicate to her are failing. Any ideas to break this cycle would greatly be appreciated.


I strongly recommend downloading Surviving an Affair. The steps outlined will help you get your marriage back on track. You'll need to bust up the affair first with exposure, then you'll need to implement extraordinary precautions and full transparency to create an interdependent marriage. You'll need to commit to spending 15 hours a week together so you're both getting your needs met by each other. I know it's hard to stop talking about the relationship, but if you put your energy on blowing up her affair and staying positive and strong, she will know she can depend on you and turn toward you. This is only if you still want to reconcile, which it sounds to me like you do. Is that right? If so, you can turn this around but you'll need to do the steps and not let your emotions get the best of you (easier said than done, I'm sure).


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> There's a difference between faulting someone for something and pointing out the conditions in the marriage that make it at a higher risk of an affair, and make it possible. In Lovebusters, for example, independent behavior, where spouses do what they want without taking their partner's feelings into consideration, and living a life without openness and honesty, is discussed as a major way to damage the marriage. An affair is the ultimate act of independent behavior. The OP was certainly guilty of committing his own acts of independent behavior, though not as extreme as an affair.
> 
> Dr. Harley says in Lovebusters and His Needs, Her Needs that there are reasons for an affair, but no excuses. He says independent behavior in marriage will damage the marriage. His perspective makes the most sense to me so I'm sharing it here.
> 
> ...



There is only a risk of an affair if the person in question has poor morals or a weak character. That is why you see people in the same exact situation where one cheats the other doesn't. The one that didn't has good morals and a strong character.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

There is a higher risk of developing feelings for someone outside of the marriage when your needs are not being met in the marriage. While I agree that a PA is the result of acting on these feelings and is a sign of weakness and poor morals, lying and betrayal in marriage is also a sign of weakness and poor morals. And for many spouses, an EA can be just as damaging as a PA. Added to the fact that most marriages suffer from infidelity (over 60%), many of us marry our spouses not knowing the full extent of their morals and strength, so it bears repeating that strong boundaries are needed to protect the marriage from infidelity. Strong boundaries include appropriate behavior around the opposite sex, openness and honesty in marriage, and telling our spouse where we are and who we are with.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

junomech said:


> Thank you for this. I came here asking for advice on what I should do to reconcile. I've fessed up to my wrong doings and am willing to work on getting past this. She continues to see the OM with no regard to me. I think she's just leading me on even though she says she isn't. She says she misses me and thinks of me, but only when I ask. She's tired of talking about our relationship all-the-while saying she still wants to talk or keep in touch. She just doesn't want to talk about us anymore. I think I said this before, but she said she dreads me picking up the kids every other week because she knows I want to talk about us.
> 
> Apologies for talking in circles. I just want everyone to understand that my attempts to communicate to her are failing. Any ideas to break this cycle would greatly be appreciated.


Stop trying to. She has to want to talk to you about the marriage. She won't as long as you do. 

Due a 180 and just be there for your kids. 

Also, if you have any female friends see if one will go to dinner with you. If she is a close friend and you trusted, let her know in as few words possible what is going on. Companionship has comfort in it. You need someone to lean on a little. 

If the above is not to your liking, talk with family. 

If she finds out you are moving on it will force the issue. Her being handed divorce papers will do the same. Either way it will bring her true self forward. She will either talk about reconciliation or she will favor the divorce. That is where you have to be willing to lose the marriage to save it. The longer you wait, which it has more then likely been to long, the stronger the feelings for the OM.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

junomech said:


> I came here asking for advice on what I should do to reconcile.
> 
> I just want everyone to understand that my attempts to communicate to her are failing. Any ideas to break this cycle would greatly be appreciated.


You've been given the advice, you're just choosing to ignore it.

As a BS, you shouldn't be asking how to reconcile; you should be asking how to get to the best *outcome* for you. That might be R or it might be D. However, since your wife is actively cheating and is not remorseful, that only leaves you with one option - unless she stops contact and demonstrates remorse. But you don't want to hear it.

Stop moping around, pick yourself up and go forward with divorce now. Stop all non essential communication with her. Don't allow yourself to be her plan B. Wait and see what she does. If she doesn't turn around, finish the D.

That's the consensus of advice. Your choice on whether to accept it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

badmemory said:


> You've been given the advice, you're just choosing to ignore it.
> 
> As a BS, you shouldn't be asking how to reconcile; you should be asking how to get to the best *outcome* for you. That might be R or it might be D. However, since your wife is actively cheating and is not remorseful, that only leaves you with one option - unless she stops contact and demonstrates remorse. But you don't won't to hear it.
> 
> ...










[/url]via Imgflip Meme Generator[/IMG]

Put like that, the idea somehow seems less than appealing...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

SunCMars said:


> And the "How dare you's" burst out of her subconscious. "How dare you get a life...I hate you's" dribble off her frontal lobe and onto her chin, only to land at your feet.
> 
> Little pools of thick saliva in the hot sun, slowly evaporate.


Yep, exactly like that. Was rather fun to witness, TBH.

And telling her father every last little detail, too. I didn't want to hurt the poor guy - we had a good relationship, even afterwards - but it became clear that she was feeding him a load of BS. Whether he believed me or not, I don't know. He was/is MENSA-level intelligent, so he likely did the math and arrived at that conclusion at some point in the future.

He actually reached out to me about 2-3 years ago, but I had long ago embarked on my new life, and didn't feel it was appropriate to engage in any sort of relationship with my former in-laws.

I do still feel bad for him, though. He's a genuinely good person, highly intelligent, the hardest worker I've ever seen, retired at the top of the food chain of a major computing company, and one of those guys that's everybody's friend and loyal to a fault.

His three children all grew up to be cheaters. Oldest son, a serial cheater. 2 daughters who cheated on their husbands. Former SIL's husband never found out, and last I heard, they were still together. Not one of his good genes seemed to have passed on to any of them.

Anyway, OP - when you're in the right (or not in the wrong, as it were), things have a way of working themselves out. Telling your sister in law is a good first step. She may believe you, she may not. But it doesn't matter - you told her the truth, and that's all you can do.

I lost a lot of friends during my divorce, including some who simply didn't believe me. But many did, and had my back.

And more than one came crawling back over the years, once my ex wife could no longer hide the truth. I bumped into one person a couple of years afterwards, and they apologized to me - said they thought I had cheated on my ex wife, not the other way around. They had stopped talking to me at that time, and continued to be friends with my ex wife and the OM. This woman actually had the gall to tell me that she figured it all out when the OM was talking about when they met - some 2 years before we split up.

And no, we're not friends. I think I said "Well, nice to see you, then" and walked away.

Hold your head up high, OP. You'll win some, you'll lose some - but the ones you lose, you'll figure out weren't worth keeping, anyway.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

You can't work on your marriage or talk to her about your marriage while your wife remains in an ongoing affair.

The ONLY way to save your marriage {or get to a point where you can even assess and attempt to save it} is by:

1. NO CONTACT WITH OM FOR LIFE ~ which means you have to bust up the affair and your best and pretty much only weapons are exposure and moving back home and doing whatever you can to interfere with her affair until either she ends it or OM moves on to more available, less complicated women {that don't have 4 kids and a angry husband}. OM can date anyone he wants {I presume he's single}. What you don't do is move out and give her 7/7 custody where you babysit the kids for an entire week of fun with OM. 

2. See objective number 1.


My guess would be that after all this time your wife has already gotten used to you being out of her life and she's no longer that "undecided" about what she wants. When you expose and try to interfere with her affair, it's likely she'll be the one to file to protect OM. So what. If that's what she's gonna do, then you're better off getting on with it. However, exposure often has a delayed effect and makes the once secret and tantalizingly illicit love affair more of a public disgusting and vile relationship that some {not all} SHOULD frown upon. They'll then have to walk around in shame and fear looking anyone in the eye, lest they see judgement {and they'll question every glance wondering if it was "judgmental"}. When the affair becomes not so much fun anymore and the fantasy is crushed, real life and real stress seeps in and they start to get insecure with each other {their relationship is based upon a foundation of lies so this is the natural succession of affair relationships}. Suddenly, with family members and kids complaining and affair partners acting weird, the whole thing might just crumble and they realize what they are losing and come to their senses slightly and consider stopping the divorce and reconciling. Doesn't happen all that often but if it's gonna happen, you might as well get that ball rolling now because LIMBO will get you nowhere.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> I know this well. I had multiple affairs during my first marriage. My exH also had multiple affairs. How and why it happened doesn't change the fact that the affair is *NOT, in any way, the fault of OP.*


In this case, OK..

In no case?

Not to this chemist, alchemist.

You can put two substances in a beaker or pressure vessel and no reaction will occur.

You can put, or you can have two people in close proximity and nothing will happen.

If you provide the catalyst for a heterogeneous solid admixture to form, you are to blame. It is blasphemy here, I know.

If you are the catalyst for these two people to react and couple down their pubes to the molecular level, then you have a hand in this. Without your freakin' existence, it might not have occurred. You caused this.

I know, I know....people have free will and make their own choices. I frankly dispute this notion of free will. Look at the world. Look at the chaos, the mayhem, the slaughter of innocents.

Oh, then throw in drugs, alcohol, AA medications, illiteracy, crazy environments, crazy exposure and upbringings. broken homes, CSA, Autism, Spectrum Disorders, etc., now you see why some have no control over any of their emotions.

Not an excuse, just reality.

I was kind enough not to bring in Esoteric Forces acting upon our psyches. We are not alone on this plane of consciousness. Nope!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

junomech said:


> A little backstory. Let me first say, I blame myself for my wife's infidelity.


I got this far and stopped reading.

Until you get past this problem, there's no hope that anything is going to turn out even remotely like you want it to.

Did you put his penis into her vagina against her will? If not,


STOP BLAMING YOURSELF.

Once you've accomplished this, let us know.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

alexm said:


> Anyway, OP - when you're in the right (or not in the wrong, as it were), things have a way of working themselves out. Telling your sister in law is a good first step. She may believe you, she may not. But it doesn't matter - you told her the truth, and that's all you can do.


It felt good to tell my SIL. Like a huge weight off my chest. She was going to go visit with her last night but my W didn't answer her text till late. I think she is planning to go there tonight. When I woke up this morning, I immediately starting to 2nd guess myself but what's done is done and I have to prepare for what happens next. I thought I would feel more distraught about the coming storm. Everyone's words here on this board, good and bad, are helping me cope.

I don't want to be the Plan B anymore.

Where can I find more information on this 180 thing?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The 180 U Turn - Affaircare


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Pay special attention to the part where it says
"You have to do the 180 list NOT to be manipulative but because it’s the right thing to do for you. You have to heal from this experience."


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

Ugh. I should have started the 180 list months ago! But as I am reading through it I feel ill having to do them. I have to be strong and keep my mind occupied. It's the idle moments throughout the day that plague me. I wish I wasn't so hung up on her.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Why ARE you so hung up on her? You do realize that many women find this type of puppy love totally unattractive, right?


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

Because she's all ever known and my only adult relationship. It sucks that I am. I realize it. I'm trying to get over her.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> There is a higher risk of developing feelings for someone outside of the marriage when your needs are not being met in the marriage. While I agree that a PA is the result of acting on these feelings and is a sign of weakness and poor morals, lying and betrayal in marriage is also a sign of weakness and poor morals. And for many spouses, an EA can be just as damaging as a PA. Added to the fact that most marriages suffer from infidelity (over 60%), many of us marry our spouses not knowing the full extent of their morals and strength, so it bears repeating that strong boundaries are needed to protect the marriage from infidelity. Strong boundaries include appropriate behavior around the opposite sex, openness and honesty in marriage, and telling our spouse where we are and who we are with.



Not going to thread jack so I will leave it at this. People cheat because of the way they have been brought up and life experience. The problem is they hide behind a mask so they can find someone to marry. They may even tell themselves I won't act like that once I am married. This goes for men and women both, more so for men. Once a guy has been with 6 to 8 different women it is impossible for him to truly bond with his wife. He can love with all he has but the real bond between husband and wife will not form. The same goes for women with the exception the number is slightly higher. That is why when we start dating we all remember our first love and why that first love can pose a danger to a marriage. Each time we broke up after that it was easier and easier. Hardening of the heart or not being able to bond with your mate any longer, its the same thing. 

This is why it is important to know about past of the person you want to marry, it is a good indication of how the marriage will turn out. I am not talking just about how sexually active one is either. But one needs to REALLY know the person before they marry / move in with them.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

ABHale said:


> This is why it is important to know about past of the person you want to marry, it is a good indication of how the marriage will turn out. I am not talking just about how sexually active one is either. But one needs to REALLY know the person before they marry / move in with them.


I'm still wrapping my head around this. I'd never heard of this OM until last year. Apparently, they went to school, from elementary to high school and that they were best friends in high school. I had no idea. She never once spoke about him. I knew her other high school friends. But not this OM.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

junomech said:


> Ugh. I should have started the 180 list months ago! But as I am reading through it I feel ill having to do them. I have to be strong and keep my mind occupied. *It's the idle moments throughout the day that plague me.* I wish I wasn't so hung up on her.


Junomech,

Any BS who has to endure an actively cheating spouse goes through this at first; when you try to convince yourself you're somehow at fault. And it's even more reinforced when your WW doesn't even want to talk to you. It's human nature.

You have to find your anger and use it to strengthen your resolve. Your WW has done the despicable thing. You haven't.

Start looking forward instead of back. Make an exit strategy. When you have to see your wife, act like you don't have a care in the world, but don't initiate conversation with her. Have her served asap without telling her first. Time for her to face the new reality she has created. That starts with a metaphoric slap in the face.

Hang tough.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

I have to keep reminding myself: 

- She doesn't want to talk me about us.
- She dreads me coming over.
- She hasn't shown any remorse.
- She's double-dipping in our joint account.
- She pays for their meals and drinks.
- She spends every available moment with OM.


I will work on my exit strategy. I'm all for a R, but she's going to put in as much work as I am.


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## Ckone1800 (Jul 13, 2015)

junomech said:


> I have to keep reminding myself:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




She will not put in the work needed, it's just not in her to do so. 

More importantly, you are helping support her relationship outside of marriage? Stop that!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

manwithnoname said:


> I need to move along because you don't like my post? :wtf:


That was an ironical interjection, poking gentle fun at some people who seem to be excusing his wife's affair.

It wasn't aimed at you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@junomech Did you ever invite your wife to one of these shoots?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

junomech said:


> I will work on my exit strategy. I'm all for a R, but she's going to put in as much work as I am.


Read this. Then read it again. Compare what the first sentence says to what the second sentence says.

Do you see the problem??????????


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> @junomech Did you ever invite your wife to one of these shoots?


Yes. On more than one occasion. I used to have a home studio and had many sexy/glamor shoots there. Albeit none of them were nude, but she saw me working with a models first hand. I treat every shoot with the utmost professional courtesy.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

junomech said:


> I'm still wrapping my head around this. I'd never heard of this OM until last year. Apparently, they went to school, from elementary to high school and that they were best friends in high school. I had no idea. She never once spoke about him. I knew her other high school friends. But not this OM.


If that is the case,* why would she keep this man, this good high school friend of hers, as a perfect secret from you?* :scratchhead:

This is starting to smell like some decidedly old fish. 

There is more here than meets the eye.

It's possible he was her lover for a long, long time and that her affair has nothing to do with the shoots.

You might need to consider having the DNA of your children tested.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

junomech said:


> Yes. On more than one occasion. I used to have a home studio and had many sexy/glamor shoots there. Albeit none of them were nude, but she saw me working with a models first hand. I treat every shoot with the utmost professional courtesy.


So, she should have known there was no impropriety involved?

So. What was her game?

Something doesn't add up about her behaviour.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

junomech said:


> I have to keep reminding myself:
> 
> - She doesn't want to talk me about us.
> - She dreads me coming over.
> ...


- 180 180 180 . 
- 180 180 180 . Move back in. She is free to leave. 180
- 180 180 180
- Separate your finances now. Only put in joint account half of mortgage, half utilities and half what's needed to cloth and feed kids. Cancel all joint credit cards. 
- Quietly document what she is spending on lover chump from joint account. You get that back should you divorce 
- File tomorrow. Have her served while she is with him. Expose to everyone in family.
- 180 180 180


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

junomech said:


> I'm still wrapping my head around this. I'd never heard of this OM until last year. Apparently, they went to school, from elementary to high school and that they were best friends in high school. I had no idea. She never once spoke about him. I knew her other high school friends. But not this OM.


Junomech, it is more so about character and morals. You can get an idea about a person by the movies and the jokes they like. If they have friends that mess around and they are ok with it. 

The problem with your wife from what I see is that she just flat out refused to let you do something that a person in your profession does as part of the job. Even when you offer for her to be at the photo shoot, she refused to attend.

Then she turns around and cheats and still is. This is where you have to make a stand by moving back into your home. You have to stop supporting her cheating. If she wants space, let her know she can move out at any time she wants.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

junomech said:


> So let's say I tell her parents and immediate family. Will that seem like I am desperate now and grasping straws? After reading all the comments, I am coming to accept that this may very well be over. I don't want to seem weak anymore even though I've cried the past 2 hours re-reading all the comments?
> 
> I also want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I sincerely appreciate everyone's input.


OP,
You are desperate. That is the reason for your behaving so timidly, accepting blame for her A and your willingness to "give her time". The unpleasant truth is however that you are completely incapable of changing her. I know it seems insurmountable, facing what you have lost but it is not. There are many here that have survived what you are going through and have come through on the other side. It is not the end of the book but simply the end of this chapter. She, for whatever reason, believes she has found solace, happiness, joy, contentment or whatever it is she thinks she has found with this man. The tragic reality however is that what she has truly found is that she lacks character, honor, dedication and honesty or, more importantly, you have realized that.

Let me ask you this do you believe that a person so devoid of integrity will ever find happiness? Do you believe that the OM, who wantonly broke up your family, will ever be the loyal, committed mate she desires? She became angry at you for taking photographs, do you not think his transgressions will far surpass your own? How will she like that? Will she find yet another unknown "best friend" to run to when he decides to break up another family by being with another man's wife? Will he be crushed when she finds this OM? In the final analysis do they not deserve one another?

You will heal from this and you will live and move on but she is destined to relive this scenario throughout her life. Her intellect demands it. It is quite regrettable but it is her fate. Focus on your children and improving yourself and, in time, you will find a woman that will have character, integrity, honor and honesty. All is not lost, some but not all. Strength and good fortune to you.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Separate joint accounts. Change your passwords and stop letting her use your money to cheat.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Hope1964 said:


> Why ARE you so hung up on her? You do realize that many women find this type of puppy love totally unattractive, right?


Because it's a natural reaction.

When my ex wife split, it was sudden - to me. I was still in love with her, enjoyed her company, never thought twice about being apart. Then it happened.

She had months, if not years, to detach herself from me and the marriage. I had minutes, days, weeks.

It took a couple of months, but I got there. It's not uncommon, and very very natural when your world suddenly changes like that, with no warning (or all warnings in hindsight).

This type of thing is like death. When someone close to you dies suddenly, you didn't have a chance to prepare. You don't know what to do. Everything changes. My father passed away 20 years ago, but he had open heart surgery in the early 80's and was told he'd get another 10-15 years. So we had time to prepare. We knew it was coming, and when it did, it wasn't a shock.

And as we all know, shock affects one's reasoning in many different ways. It's our brains way of coping with 1000 different things at once - which is exactly how I'd describe the seconds following my ex wife telling me she wanted a divorce. I didn't believe her at first. Took me a solid hour to process it. I sat down and stared the the TV, no joke. Another few weeks to realize she was dead serious. Another couple of months to realize she wasn't coming back.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

OP, with the recent post about her knowing the OM since elementary school~ High school that YOU NEVER ever heard of. That a MAJOR red flag.

My opinion, she never loved you like she loved the OM. I doubt she'll ever want to R with you... maybe a year or so from now, when you are out dating other chicks and her OM relationship what kind of tramp she is to friends and family. Really, you need to get ANGRY and move on with your life.

She is the ONLY woman you have experienced? This is why I recommend people to date and have sex with several people before marriage.

How old are you? 38~40years old? Time for you to change your life for the better.
1 - your marriage was always a lie. Your tears are worthless to her. She doesn't care. Think about how she is is? If you got injured and needed medical care, she would likely NOT call 911.
2 - get angry. She has wasted about 23 years of your life, being in love with someone else. What happened? Did she get pregnant when you were just dating, and you did the "honorable thing" and married her?
3 - YOU need to experience other women. Star the divorce. Go to the gym, lose 50 lbs by going to the gym 5~6 days a week for 1~2 hours. (unless you are already fit) Many have kids-day-care rooms.
4 - do MORE nude photography.
5 - any other hobbies you always wanted to do?
6 - start imagining starting your life... with likely a younger and better woman. I was 40 when I met my wife - when she was 25. A few years later, she would cheat on me. We're still in (R). I've had 100+ women before her, which she is aware of. I threw her out of my home. I started dating... (R) is tough and it was a 2+ month affair before I caught one, and it lasted another 5 months as we crashed several times. Its still a challenge and we both have wounds to heal. BUT your wayward wife - she's been cheating on you for over 20 years. The simple fact she NEVER said a word about him, is a major problem.

My wife knows my past relationships, some I am still friends with to some degree. I've not hidden past relationships from her.

IMHO, you never had your wife since day one.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

junomech said:


> I have to keep reminding myself:
> 
> - She doesn't want to talk me about us.
> - She dreads me coming over.
> ...


Go to the bank and tell them that she can't move money out more than $50 at a time without your signature. Or else leave enough for her to pay the bills and don't give her any more money until the beginning of next month.


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> You hid the fact that you were in a room with naked women who were posing for you. You did this repeatedly, after your wife told you she was not ok with it.
> 
> You hurt your wife. You both have poor boundaries around the opposite sex.
> 
> ...



Comments like this remind me of an article I read a while back. It assesses the fact that compared to German culture, the North American culture sexualizes all nudity. The author from Canada but married to a German. German saunas are nude and co-ed. The author was freaked out by this but admitted there is absolutely nothing sexual about saunas in Germany.

I often think if we could figure out how to desexualize the human body, we would be better off. That's probably right up there up with eliminating the drinking age and Jews and Palestinians getting along. It could never happen. 
The article is here: German Saunas: Why My First Visit Will Be My Last One


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

@Jus260, I guarantee you there was nothing asexual about the boudoir photos the OP was taking- they are SUPPOSED to be highly sexy and desirable. That's the reason women have them taken, often to give as a special arousing gift to their sexual partner/spouse. 

Nothing like sitting in a sauna for health reasons and deep sweating. That's more akin to going to the gynecologist's office, which I fully believe is not sexualized by most doctors.

And I'm sure even German wives would feel deeply hurt if they told their husband's they were not ok with them spending their working day with naked women posing sexily for them, and their husbands did it anyway and lied to them about it. If my German grandmother were still alive, I'd ask her to confirm, but I can pretty much guarantee if my grandpa were having this way she'd feel deeply hurt and betrayed.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Jus, I agree. It's the puritanism we came over here with. Not that healthy, IMO. It also blindly ignores history and sociology and human nature. Look at Texas - most conservative, prim and proper state, the ONLY sex ed it teaches is abstinence, if it even brings it up. And quess which state has some of the highest pregnancies in the country?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Jessica38 said:


> I guarantee you there was nothing asexual about the boudoir photos the OP was taking- they are SUPPOSED to be highly sexy and desirable. That's the reason women have them taken, often to give as a special arousing gift to their sexual partner/spouse.


Doesn't mean HE was being sexual. HE was doing art. Like nearly the whole rest of the world does but is somehow frowned up in America.



> Nothing like sitting in a sauna for health reasons and deep sweating. That's more akin to going to the gynecologist's office, which I fully believe is not sexualized by most doctors.
> 
> I can pretty much guarantee if my grandpa were behaving this way she'd feel deeply hurt and betrayed.


We've had quite a few American women come here and say their husbands won't let them see a male gynecologist.

And what you're talking about with your grandparents is the LYING that was going on. Which has already been discussed and admitted was wrong.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

turnera said:


> Doesn't mean HE was being sexual. HE was doing art. Like nearly the whole rest of the world does but is somehow frowned up in America.
> 
> It doesn't matter if he felt aroused or stimulated by the naked women or not- his wife didn't like it. He knew this and was willing to hurt her anyway.
> We've had quite a few American women come here and say their husbands won't let them see a male gynecologist.
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Nobody is denying that if the spouse doesn't like it, don't do it. You keep trying to make it about him doing something akin to having sex with someone else when, for him, it wasn't.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

turnera said:


> Nobody is denying that if the spouse doesn't like it, don't do it. You keep trying to make it about him doing something akin to having sex with someone else when, for him, it wasn't.


I agree the two are not comparable. However, to HER, his behavior broke her trust. That had to cause damage in the marriage, as the OP is now seeing, especially when it happened repeatedly. Both are guilty of independent behavior in the marriage, with her affair being the ultimate act of IB and betrayal. The OP wants to save his marriage. To do this, he will need to change his view of marriage to create one of openness and honesty, and eliminate IB if he is to expect the same from her. 

She has no excuse for engaging in an affair. To fix the situation, this affair has to be blown up and ended. But to move forward, they both need to eliminate the IB and practice openness and honesty to create an interdependent marriage. That means the OP will have to stop doing whatever he wants, even if it means sacrificing erotic art, for the sake of his marriage. He's been doing this for years, so it's going to take serious change on his part too. Not just hers (though again, her affair is NOT OK or justified in any way).

When a marriage has suffered an affair, the couple needs to create a new marriage if it is to recover. This is very true here, IMO.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

junomech said:


> I'm still wrapping my head around this. I'd never heard of this OM until last year. Apparently, they went to school, from elementary to high school and that they were best friends in high school. I had no idea. She never once spoke about him. I knew her other high school friends. But not this OM.


That is because OM was more than a "friend" in high school. My wife never mentioned the sexual relationships she had in high school. She never brought them up and I did not ask. Also why she is dating this OM now - he is familiar - not a total unknown.

File for divorce. Maybe that will shock her out of it, maybe not. At least you will know the truth about how she feels.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Your next 10 moves, starting TODAY, should be:

1-Move back home
2-Move back home
3-Move back home
4-Move back home
5-Move back home
6-Move back home
7-Move back home
8-Move back home
9-Move back home
10-Move back home


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skerzoid (Feb 7, 2017)

Your next ten moves after moving back home or even before moving back home:

1-File for divorce and have her served.
2-File for divorce and have her served.
3-File for divorce and have her served.
4-File for divorce and have her served.
5-File for divorce and have her served.
6-File for divorce and have her served.
7-File for divorce and have her served.
8-File for divorce and have her served.
9-File for divorce and have her served.
10-File for divorce and have her served.

She is sitting on the fence and you need to knock her butt off, one way or another. You have got to get out of infidelity NOW! This limbo you are in is self inflicted. Man up and rip the band-aid off.


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> @Jus260, I guarantee you there was nothing asexual about the boudoir photos the OP was taking- they are SUPPOSED to be highly sexy and desirable. That's the reason women have them taken, often to give as a special arousing gift to their sexual partner/spouse.
> 
> Nothing like sitting in a sauna for health reasons and deep sweating. That's more akin to going to the gynecologist's office, which I fully believe is not sexualized by most doctors.
> 
> And I'm sure even German wives would feel deeply hurt if they told their husband's they were not ok with them spending their working day with naked women posing sexily for them, and their husbands did it anyway and lied to them about it. If my German grandmother were still alive, I'd ask her to confirm, but I can pretty much guarantee if my grandpa were having this way she'd feel deeply hurt and betrayed.


This is a severe thread hijack. The photo shoot part of his story probably needs its own thread in the Sexi n Marriage forum.
Years ago, I went to a strip club. It was when I was in college and single. I don't know if it's like this for everyone, but afterabout 10 minutes, the nudity really isn't that shocking anymore. Of course if someone were to start grinding on you, that would be different. I believe it is possible to be in a room with naked women. That's coming from someone who absolutely sexualizes the female body clothed or unclothed. I would prefer it to be otherwise but it is what it is. 

I don't know much about German culture. I just happened to find that article one day. I thought it was interesting. I know I have to make my 8 and 5 yr old wear clothes. In my experience kids have no problem with nudity until you tell them nudity is wrong. I distinctly remember my cousin in Georgia walking in on my when I was putting on my pajamas when I was 5 years old. I'm still pissed about that.

I also recommend her article about having knee surgery in a German hospital.


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

turnera said:


> Jus, I agree. It's the puritanism we came over here with. Not that healthy, IMO. It also blindly ignores history and sociology and human nature. Look at Texas - most conservative, prim and proper state, the ONLY sex ed it teaches is abstinence, if it even brings it up. And quess which state has some of the highest pregnancies in the country?


I had no idea texas was that screwed up. Breastfeeding is the most natural thing ever. In other cultures, it's normal to feed in public. I'm aware of that fact but I still have to make myself not look when a woman has a blanket over her shoulder. Even without the blanket, that's normal everywhere else in the world. Remove the blanket and you'll be harassed or arrested.

The weird thing is, if our culture wasn't like this, he would have never been approached to take those photos.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

I am disappointed. My SIL went to my house last night to drop off something to my wife. Because the kids were running around, she didn't feel it was appropriate to discuss anything in front of them. When she left, she asked her to walk her out. That's when she asked her about us. She wanted her to admit to the affair. But the wife didn't. The SIL mentioned she couldn't even look her in the face when they talked. My SIL tried to get her to admit/talk about the breakup, but the wife refused. When the wife asked her when my SIL and I talked, she said it didn't matter. We could have talked yesterday or 2 months ago. I can see what she was trying to do. The SIL wants to be biased and let my wife come forward with why she hasn't tried to R. I'm disappointed because the SIL didn't come right out and tell her what she knows and ask WTF. 

It's ok. I'll be ok. I can't expect anything. I shouldn't expect anything. This just proves the wife is ashamed and embarrassed. I want to tell her parents but I highly doubt it will have any impact on the wife. 

This morning I couldn't shake this grief spasm. It finally started to go away. Sometimes it can last for 5 minutes to hours on end. What's a grief spasm? A term coined in a book called "Getting Past Your Breakup". Basically, you get so overwhelmed with your thoughts, that you can't function. Not quite a panic or anxiety attack.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

junomech said:


> I am disappointed. My SIL went to my house last night to drop off something to my wife. Because the kids were running around, she didn't feel it was appropriate to discuss anything in front of them. When she left, she asked her to walk her out. That's when she asked her about us. She wanted her to admit to the affair. But the wife didn't. The SIL mentioned she couldn't even look her in the face when they talked. My SIL tried to get her to admit/talk about the breakup, but the wife refused. When the wife asked her when my SIL and I talked, she said it didn't matter. We could have talked yesterday or 2 months ago. I can see what she was trying to do. The SIL wants to be biased and let my wife come forward with why she hasn't tried to R. I'm disappointed because the SIL didn't come right out and tell her what she knows and ask WTF.
> 
> It's ok. I'll be ok. I can't expect anything. I shouldn't expect anything. This just proves the wife is ashamed and embarrassed. I want to tell her parents but I highly doubt it will have any impact on the wife.
> 
> This morning I couldn't shake this grief spasm. It finally started to go away. Sometimes it can last for 5 minutes to hours on end. What's a grief spasm? A term coined in a book called "Getting Past Your Breakup". Basically, you get so overwhelmed with your thoughts, that you can't function. Not quite a panic or anxiety attack.


You are being way to passive in all of this. You should immediately inform all your family and hers that your wife continues to step out of the marriage with a bum who can't even buy her drinks or dinner - she seems to be paying for that with YOUR money. Waiting for her to admit to her own family that she is a cheater ? You will wait a long time. When she finally does admit she stepped out she will blame you of course. Who cares? Whatever went wrong with her she should have divorced you first. Classic cake eater. 

You might start to feel better in all of this if you wake up and start controlling the events occurring in your life instead of passive waiting for her to change her mind. Ain't happening. Why should she? She has you subsidizing her infidelity and watching the children. 

Move back home and file. Inform everyone immediately. It might wake her up and maybe she may regret and feel truly remorseful for what she has done Then you can decide if YOU WANT her back. If she does not wake up , well. .. Do you want to continue to stay married to a women who has continuous given her self to another man ? While you pay for it?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@junomech Have you seen a divorce lawyer yet?

You should, just to check out what your legal position is.

In fact, make a list of the top five divorce lawyers in your town and get an initial consultation with each of them.

This will help you find the best one for you and your particular circumstances.

It could also block your wife from retaining their services, but that's just an unfortunate side effect.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> @junomech Have you seen a divorce lawyer yet?
> 
> You should, just to check out what your legal position is.
> 
> ...


I am in the process. I have lawyer buddy getting a list for me now.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

junomech said:


> Sheesh. It all goes back to these photoshoots. While some were free to gain experience, others were for paying clients. Why can't some of you see past the word "nude"? Men and women browse pornography every day. Are we going to compare tasteful nude shoots to pornography? I think not. I wasn't trying to get into these models vaginas. I treat every shoot as work. I had no interest in sleeping with these people. I'm not trying to justify me lying to her about them. Understand that there are huge differences in nude shoots. They aren't all spread eagle and show everything to the camera. That's actually distasteful and actually rude to ask a working model or paying client to do anything that vulgar.


It's not right for a husband or wife to spend time alone with someone else of the opposite sex who is naked. I find it amazing that some here thinks that is ok. The fact that you are a wedding photographer is irrelevant. Pornography, whether you think its ok or not, isn't being with the person in the same room for several hours. So calling it 'tasteful' makes it ok? Wow. Thankfully many husbands would not do as you did. You crossed the line.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> When a marriage has suffered an affair, the couple needs to create a new marriage if it is to recover. This is very true here, IMO.


However, in this case, the wife is not interested to end her affair and work on the marriage. She has apparently been clear about that to OP. At this point, it doesn't matter much anymore what led to her having an affair. OP needs to come to terms with that. OP asking his wife what they do when they are together indicates to me that he is in denial.


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> It's not right for a husband or wife to spend time alone with someone else of the opposite sex who is naked. I find it amazing that some here thinks that is ok. The fact that you are a wedding photographer is irrelevant. Pornography, whether you think its ok or not, isn't being with the person in the same room for several hours. So calling it 'tasteful' makes it ok? Wow. Thankfully many husbands would not do as you did. You crossed the line.


So you're basically restating what 1/2 on here have already said. What's the point of your post? You can compare my lying about photography to any inappropriate behavior; drinking, gambling, video games, pornography, working to much, not listening, etc. 

How is your reply any help to the issue at hand? I recognized my faults. But, I did NOT sleep with anyone.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

Can someone stop the threadjack by the two nuns, please?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> It's not right for a husband or wife to spend time alone with someone else of the opposite sex who is naked. I find it amazing that some here thinks that is ok. The fact that you are a wedding photographer is irrelevant. Pornography, whether you think its ok or not, isn't being with the person in the same room for several hours. So calling it 'tasteful' makes it ok? Wow. Thankfully many husbands would not do as you did. You crossed the line.


He is not merely a wedding photographer. So your continuing to raise this point is what is irelevant. 

And was he making pornography? You are the first person to make that connection.

Picasso and other artists also spent hours, days, weeks, even, alone with nude women. 

Would you find that objectionable, too?

And he was alone at these shoots (though often not alone, as other people clothed, before you get any ideas, were in attendance) only because his wife declined his invitation to attend them.

Your harping on about the fact that he is a "wedding photographer" is getting close to being a threadjack so, speaking as a moderator, please stop this.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

junomech said:


> How is your reply any help to the issue at hand? I recognized my faults. But, I did NOT sleep with anyone.


It is called false equivalence with a touch of straw man arguments. Just let it go.

We have people on this board who don't think fully clothed opposite sex friends are okay in a marriage. We have others who have argued flirting is okay if it doesn't cross a line. You said, unless it changed, all but one were escorted. You were a photographer who took nude photos sexualized or not and lied. Your lie was bad, trust was broken.


She should have divorced you for the lies or taken nude photos with your best friend after telling you a lie. No, escalating to an affair before talking it out or giving you an ultimatum is ridiculous. Yes, even if she knew you wouldn't listen.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> That was an ironical interjection, poking gentle fun at some people who seem to be excusing his wife's affair.
> 
> It wasn't aimed at you.



If that is the case, I do apologize to @phillybeffandswiss


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

It's the internet dude, no worries. I would have explained it myself, but I wanted to wait until we had more information. These types of threads get toxic real fast.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

junomech said:


> I'm still wrapping my head around this. I'd never heard of this OM until last year. Apparently, they went to school, from elementary to high school and that they were best friends in high school. I had no idea. She never once spoke about him. I knew her other high school friends. But not this OM.


Do you have a copy of one of her yearbooks? Is it even true, is why I'm asking.

-10th Engineer Harrison


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## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

junomech said:


> I have to keep reminding myself:
> 
> - She doesn't want to talk me about us.
> - She dreads me coming over.
> ...


Hold it right there, Bucko!!!

Go to the bank RIGHT NOW and cancel your joint credit cards!! Don't pay for her fling.

-10th Engineer Harrison


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> It's not right for a husband or wife to spend time alone with someone else of the opposite sex who is naked. I find it amazing that some here thinks that is ok. The fact that you are a wedding photographer is irrelevant. Pornography, whether you think its ok or not, isn't being with the person in the same room for several hours. So calling it 'tasteful' makes it ok? Wow. Thankfully many husbands would not do as you did. You crossed the line.


First off you need to read his posts. 

He has explained this already. When he did the nude session the model had a friend with her, it was the only way he would do it. His wife has also been present during some of his other sessions just not the nude ones. But it was never just him and the models. 

His wife is ****ing another man and you think his photographing models is the same. Not even close.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Diana7 said:


> It's not right for a husband or wife to spend time alone with someone else of the opposite sex who is naked. I find it amazing that some here thinks that is ok. The fact that you are a wedding photographer is irrelevant. Pornography, whether you think its ok or not, isn't being with the person in the same room for several hours. So calling it 'tasteful' makes it ok? Wow. Thankfully many husbands would not do as you did. You crossed the line.


You have a weird opinion of what is pornography.

T/J over.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you canceled the bank accounts yet?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It is called false equivalence with a touch of straw man arguments. Just let it go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ha ha I actually do believe it is terrible to have opposite sex friends if you're in a serious relationship unless your spouse is always free to join and you aren't going out alone with them

OTOH I see absolutely no problem with strip clubs. Went a million times on the road - always told w before and talked after - never in a million years did I even think of cheating nor did she - it literally never crossed our minds

Researched getting boudoir photos for the w - contacted one across the country because her photos were so well done - she was flattered and provided a local photographer. I would have had no problem if my w did the shoot without me - in fact I expected it - bit never pursued it because w is too modest to enjoy that

Anyway my point is there are a million opinions about this and none are remotely relevant to this thread


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My H took his clients to strip clubs. He always told me about them. Sometimes I went. We went to adult toy stores. We watch those shows on HBO about sex. We trust each other not to cheat. When H says "I'm gonna go see if those 20 year olds will take me home with them," I just laugh and say 'go ahead, if they'll have you.'


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

junomech said:


> So you're basically restating what 1/2 on here have already said. What's the point of your post? You can compare my lying about photography to any inappropriate behavior; drinking, gambling, video games, pornography, working to much, not listening, etc.
> 
> How is your reply any help to the issue at hand? I recognized my faults. But, I did NOT sleep with anyone.


There are many levels of cheating and acting badly.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

turnera said:


> My H took his clients to strip clubs. He always told me about them. Sometimes I went. We went to adult toy stores. We watch those shows on HBO about sex. We trust each other not to cheat. When H says "I'm gonna go see if those 20 year olds will take me home with them," I just laugh and say 'go ahead, if they'll have you.'


That's ok for you, but many husband and wives don't act that way. I would never marry a man who thought that was ok and I wouldn't expect a man to marry me if I did.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

turnera said:


> You have a weird opinion of what is pornography.
> 
> T/J over.


I know what it is.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

OnTheRocks said:


> Can someone stop the threadjack by the two nuns, please?


Not a nun, a very happily married woman with a husband who would never act that way.Thank God for the good men. 
I would LOVE to see your faces if your wives declared that they were going to be spending hours alone with a naked man to photograph them. LOL


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Thank God for good men who are safe and free to meet their wife's needs and are a good match to HER sense of morality, whatever it may be. And not necessarily the sense of morality of a group of people who believe that only THEIR view of morality is the right one.

If my H said he was going to spend hours alone with a naked woman to photograph her, AND PHOTOGRAPHY WAS HIS JOB, I would kiss him and say 'do a great job!' and go on my way to my own job. Because *we* trust each other and don't assume that any (gasp!) sight of the other sex's naked body immediately means sex, debauchery, treachery, or sin.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Anyway my point is there are a million opinions about this and none are remotely relevant to this thread
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, which is what I said with different words.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Not a nun, a very happily married woman with a husband who would never act that way.Thank God for the good men.
> I would LOVE to see your faces if your wives declared that they were going to be spending hours alone with a naked man to photograph them. LOL


With a chaperone, a paying job or with your spouse there as well on a few occasions? My face would look the same way it does when my wife goes to her corporate job. You know, where people cheat fully clothed in parking lots and during lunch breaks.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Jus260 said:


> This is a severe thread hijack. The photo shoot part of his story probably needs its own thread in the Sexi n Marriage forum.
> Years ago, I went to a strip club. It was when I was in college and single. I don't know if it's like this for everyone, but afterabout 10 minutes, the nudity really isn't that shocking anymore. Of course if someone were to start grinding on you, that would be different. I believe it is possible to be in a room with naked women. That's coming from someone who absolutely sexualizes the female body clothed or unclothed. I would prefer it to be otherwise but it is what it is.
> 
> I don't know much about German culture. I just happened to find that article one day. I thought it was interesting. I know I have to make my 8 and 5 yr old wear clothes. In my experience kids have no problem with nudity until you tell them nudity is wrong. I distinctly remember my cousin in Georgia walking in on my when I was putting on my pajamas when I was 5 years old. I'm still pissed about that.
> ...


I saw that article as well, some time back.

I'm used to nudity and being in non-sexual nude situations. Yeah, in the USA - we are hung up on sex. Strip clubs don't make money with guys just sitting there. They make money by guys (you) buying drinks and paying for lap-dances or renting out the Champagne room.

Nude art is not porn. 
There is also sexual photography that is still artful. I know a guy who does BDSM/rope "shibari" - which requires him to be physical with his model to tie them up. The photos and poses of his models are top grade stuff. There is no sexual intercourse in any of his thousands of photos. There maybe a single woman, two women or a man (rare). He's even tied up my wife once. Women come up to HIM to model for him. He does both free and charges.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Not a nun, a very happily married woman with a husband who would never act that way.Thank God for the good men.
> I would LOVE to see your faces if your wives declared that they were going to be spending hours alone with a naked man to photograph them. LOL


*MODERATOR WARNING:*

@Diana7 Please desist with these threadjacks.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Being naked with one that is not your spouse is a sin for Christians and Muslims both. 

Let's not throw stones because of ones beliefs. I do believe in Christ and am not by any means best I can be. Just like everyone else I am a sinner. 

Also like everyone here, I try and help if I can. I am not here to judge if ones beliefs are wrong or right, that is between that individual and God. 

So can we get back to trying to help the OP now.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Anything not dealing with that fact that the OP's wife cheating is jacking the thread. 

This is not a debate of nude photography or what is or isn't porn. 

This is not helping the OP.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Not a nun, a very happily married woman with a husband who would never act that way.Thank God for the good men.
> I would LOVE to see your faces if your wives declared that they were going to be spending hours alone with a naked man to photograph them. LOL


Diana this is touching a sore spot with you it sounds like. But it is not helping the OP. OP has already say he should not of done this behind his wife's back. Also his photo sessions didn't give his wife the right to cheat on him. We need to move past this point and see what advice the OP can use going forward.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Not a nun, a very happily married woman with a husband who would never act that way.Thank God for the good men.
> I would LOVE to see your faces if your wives declared that they were going to be spending hours alone with a naked man to photograph them. LOL


Diana, TAM is full of people that at one point believe this. They don't any more. I would say Junomech was one of them that never would have believed his wife could cheat on him, here he is.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ABHale said:


> Diana this is touching a sore spot with you it sounds like. But it is not helping the OP. OP has already say he should not of done this behind his wife's back. Also his photo sessions didn't give his wife the right to cheat on him. We need to move past this point and see what advice the OP can use going forward.


No not a sore spot, I just am amazed at what some married people think is appropriate behaviour. Makes me grateful for a good man. I would never treat him that way. 

I never said it excused her affair,I hate cheating, but it would have deeply damaged the marriage and the trust.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ABHale said:


> Diana, TAM is full of people that at one point believe this. They don't any more. I would say Junomech was one of them that never would have believed his wife could cheat on him, here he is.


He was unhappily married for 23 years and he didn't cheat. That's the sort of man he is. We don't even look at porn.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

MODERATOR WARNING:-

A post which was a threadjack was posted after a warning not to threadjack.

*You have been warned.* 

If you either cannot or will not desist in threadjacks then further action will be considered by the moderation team.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> No not a sore spot, I just am amazed at what some married people think is appropriate behaviour. Makes me grateful for a good man. I would never treat him that way.
> 
> I never said it excused her affair,I hate cheating, but it would have deeply damaged the marriage and the trust.


Some yes it would. Most it would not. The fact that his wife had attended sessions were the model was barely clothed suggest that she is using this as an excuse.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Junomech, how are you today?


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## junomech (Jun 5, 2017)

ABHale said:


> Junomech, how are you today?


At this moment, I'm feeling better. Thank you @ABHale for following up. That means a lot.

I started reading _ "Surviving an Affair" by Willard F. Jr. Harley & Jennifer Harley Chalmers_. Thank you @EleGirl for the recommendation. It was hard to get through the first few chapters because it hits so close to home. I'm starting to come to terms with what is happening and making preparations to protect myself. 

UPDATE: She never called me (her sister said she would) and I haven't reached out to her. I intend to expose her affair to her mom and dad by weeks end. I scheduled a meeting with a recommended divorce attorney tomorrow.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Exposure is your only option. Don't worrying bout pushing her away. She's already gone.

If the other man is married inform his wife.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

junomech said:


> At this moment, I'm feeling better. Thank you @ABHale for following up. That means a lot.
> 
> I started reading _ "Surviving an Affair" by Willard F. Jr. Harley & Jennifer Harley Chalmers_. Thank you @EleGirl for the recommendation. It was hard to get through the first few chapters because it hits so close to home. I'm starting to come to terms with what is happening and making preparations to protect myself.
> 
> UPDATE: She never called me (her sister said she would) and I haven't reached out to her. I intend to expose her affair to her mom and dad by weeks end. I scheduled a meeting with a recommended divorce attorney tomorrow.


Good for you! I'd bet you feel a bit better already!


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Do not let her know what is going on until you are read to do it. 

You have to move back into your home man. 

You have to separate your accounts.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

junomech said:


> At this moment, I'm feeling better. Thank you @ABHale for following up. That means a lot.
> 
> I started reading _ "Surviving an Affair" by Willard F. Jr. Harley & Jennifer Harley Chalmers_. Thank you @EleGirl for the recommendation. It was hard to get through the first few chapters because it hits so close to home. I'm starting to come to terms with what is happening and making preparations to protect myself.
> 
> UPDATE: She never called me (her sister said she would) and I haven't reached out to her. I intend to expose her affair to her mom and dad by weeks end. I scheduled a meeting with a recommended divorce attorney tomorrow.


I hope that the book helps you. I know it helped me immensely. 

My thoughts are that you need to expose the affair and then go to Plan B.

If there is any way for you to move back into your home, you need to do that too, before you expose and go to plan b. It is still your legal residence. So you have all the right to move back.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

ABHale said:


> Do not let her know what is going on until you are read to do it.
> 
> You have to move back into your home man.
> 
> You have to separate your accounts.


Expose without warning!!! Let them deal with it. Did they give you any warning?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Juno, you realize that you have nothing to do with your wife actions now, right.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Look at the link on proper exposure. 
Exposure 101 - Your Most Powerful Weapon - Marriage Builders® Forums

As stated.... and it cannot be stressed enough. MOVE BACK INTO YOUR HOME.

It's YOURS, you PAY FOR IT! You are NOT the cheater! And when you talk to the lawyer, look at ways of getting her evicted - and filing R.O. to keep the OM away from YOUR KIDS!

Oh yeah, my wife and her family was pissed when I exposed (I did it wrong) but guess what, I didn't and still don't give a damn about doing it. Oh well, reactions from her actions...

Good luck!


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

What is going on junomech?


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

OP.....

As another poster stated above......exposure and filing are your only real course of action left here.

The unfortunate consequence of the months of playing the 'pick me' dance with your horrid WW is that she now feels emboldened and in charge....figures there is no way you are going anywhere so she can take her time to try out OM while you will just keep pining away.

Expose and file.ASAP......show her in no uncertain terms that her days of cake-eating and fence-sitting are gone for good.


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