# Updated situation on sexless marriage



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

So I posted a few months back about the sexless marriage and the lack of affection from my wife. How I was staying in the marriage for my two kids, etc.

You may not like what I have to say and I'm not looking for advice per se but just an update and welcome comments, similar experiences, etc

Some things have changed since then: 

1) Gave her an ultimatum of let's spend more time together, more affection, more intimacy. 

She said that she didn't feel close because we didn't spend anout time together. She says that she doesn't have a high sex drive but will try to make small steps and we will have sex in the near future. I said that pretty much needs to take place or our marriage is doomed. We will be headed for divorce.

No...she is not cheating and doesn't have any male friends. I did my due diligence snooping to make sure I wasn't wasting my time with someone who is just stringing me along.

2) I have made a close female friend during this process. She is married too and in a similar situation. We have not had sex but we do email quite a bit and support each other. Without her, I was too needy with my wife. Now I feel more like the person I was before the marriage started going south. I don't give a **** if anyone approves of my friendship. It's been great for her and I. My friendship with this women hinders nothing in my marriage. Maybe it would for other people but not me.

So that's it. I'll see what happens. In the meantime we are being the best parents we can for the kids and trying our best to get closer. If this doesn't work out, we will get a divorce. 

Thanks for listening. Comments are welcome; advice not needed at this point. Maybe later if something comes up.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Wife clearly tells you the EN she needs met in order to feel closer and more intimate, you get a girlfriend and start an EA instead. 
Doesn't sound like things will work out well but good luck anyway.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

Cobalt said:


> So I posted a few months back about the sexless marriage and the lack of affection from my wife. How I was staying in the marriage for my two kids, etc.
> 
> You may not like what I have to say and I'm not looking for advice per se but just an update and welcome comments, similar experiences, etc
> 
> ...


Why are you shying away from advices ? 

Do you think that everything is under your control ?


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Comments are welcome? Goody! Here's mine:

"Not only am I not going to meet your emotional needs wife, but I'm going to devote my emotional energy (you know, the kind you said you needed to turn you on?) to another woman all the while complaining about how my frigid wife won't fvck me on the Internets and to my married AP." 

Sounds like a legitimate solution. I don't see how this can backfire at all.

Good luck.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

SweetAndSour said:


> Why are you shying away from advices ?
> 
> Do you think that everything is under your control ?


Possibly because he knows his solution is utter bvll crap and is already on the defensive about it as his offense.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I cannot judge you because I really can't put myself in your shoes. However, I know what it is like to feel unrelating emotional pain when a parent cheats and cannot provide the full emotional support that children need. I feel that should be avoided at all cost. D would have been better for me and my siblings than to endure the emotional and physical absence of a father. 

Some comments and opinions - the EA is a distraction, as you said. It may interfer with your attempt at a resolution with your wife and steals the involvement that should go to your children. They are innocent and don't deserve that. . You are getting some of your intimacy needs from this woman and there is a high chance that in could turn into a PA. It could actually make it possible to stay in your marriage if your wife does not find out. 

Affairs are selfish, deceptive, inexcusable and are tumultuous to the lives of children. You may regret your decision to have an EA/PA. You seem like a good man who has tried to fix your marriage, it would be a sham to be left with guilt because you did not make a child friendly D which takes as much effort as what you give to the OW.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> Possibly because he knows his solution is utter bvll crap and is already on the defensive about it as his offense.


Well.. All I hear is he needs sex. (I understand I need sex too)

He has a sexless marriage..... 

Or put it better, his kids home is not such a safe, solid place for the kids.

But he doesn't say how it got there.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Miss Taken said:


> Comments are welcome? Goody! Here's mine:
> 
> "Not only am I not going to meet your emotional needs wife, but I'm going to devote my emotional energy (you know, the kind you said you needed to turn you on?) to another woman all the while complaining about how my frigid wife won't fvck me on the Internets and to my married AP."
> 
> ...


Indeed. Of course, he has little to lose at this point. He wants to spend more time with his wife, who gave lukewarm - perhaps even dismissive - response to his suggestion.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Cobalt, you're playing with fire. I get that it's a confidence boost but you're in a place many affairs start from.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I know his wife is no saint. Personally, I can't imagine depriving my spouse of sex especially if the relationship is going well. I am a very sexual person. 

At the other end, I can imagine not having one's emotional needs in a general sense met in a relationship. Sex is an emotional need in addition to the things we all come to expect or attribute to emotional needs.

All of that said, I do not think this is a legitimate solution. Even if the marriage is crap - (and if it is crap one does no service to the kids, staying together for the kids). But an affair - call a spade a spade but this has the makings of an emotional affair is just making sh!t worse for the kids should they catch wind of what is going on regardless of the state of the marriage.

If it's broken try to fix it. If that's not possible **** or get off the pot. Don't involve third parties. (Of course, this is yet another comment, not advice).


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Just a thought, and speaking as someone who cheated on his wife while in a similar situation as you... Why not just end the marriage first? You'll say you're staying for the kids, but think about what you're modeling to the kids as a "marriage". Is this what you hope they'll have for themselves? Because that's what you're setting yourself up for.

The other aspect is that when things blow up and your emotional (or physical) affair is exposed, it will likely poison what could otherwise be an amicable split. This will damage your kids much more, in the end.

In summary... Either be in your marriage or be out. Straddling the fence will only bust your balls.

C


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PBear is the man.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

woundedwarrior said:


> Usually you end up with neither woman in the end and your kid is SOL. Think about it.


Sadly, sometimes that is the BEST of all possible outcomes. For everyone.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> PBear is the man.


No, definitely not. And I forgot to add one more note.

Leave while you still have your integrity. Once that's gone, you will forever be "a cheater". In any new relationship, you'll have to chose between being honest about your past actions or being "safe" from an ethical partner rejecting you for your past.

C


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Wife clearly tells you the EN she needs met in order to feel closer and more intimate, you get a girlfriend and start an EA instead.



*A FRIENDSHIP IS NOT AN EA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Sorry, I just wanted to make a course correction because I already see the direction the thread is going. One person was already calling it an "EA/PA". Sheesh :slap:

It could be an EA, but it's not clear from the description the OP gave. It's not fair to simply assume any friendship with the OS is automatically an EA.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Theseus said:


> *A FRIENDSHIP IS NOT AN EA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> Sorry, I just wanted to make a course correction because I already see the direction the thread is going. One person was already calling it an "EA/PA". Sheesh :slap:
> 
> It could be an EA, but it's not clear from the description the OP gave. It's not fair to simply assume any friendship with the OS is automatically an EA.


Thank you Theseus.

I know people are trying to help but sometimes they jump to conclusions. She is a friend but not an EA in my opinion. People may have different criteria though so call it what you want. I know what it is.

Let me clarify another thing: Some times people will give their opinion and I won't agree and then they are like: "than why are you asking for advice?" 

That's why I am not specifically asking for advice but all comments are welcome. This is an open forum. I'm just giving my background for people to refer to when I chime in on their threads.

Thank you all for caring enough to answer.  I may not agree with everyone but I appreciate your time nonetheless.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Wife clearly tells you the EN she needs met in order to feel closer and more intimate, you get a girlfriend and start an EA instead.
> Doesn't sound like things will work out well but good luck anyway.


I think you read it wrong. I told HER what sexual and EN I needed met, she was like "I am who I am....deal with it". 

That doesn't work for me so I basically said change or I am going to file for divorce. She then said she will try to change in small steps, be patient, etc. I agreed and now were are in that process.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Miss Taken said:


> Comments are welcome? Goody! Here's mine:
> 
> "Not only am I not going to meet your emotional needs wife, but I'm going to devote my emotional energy (you know, the kind you said you needed to turn you on?) to another woman all the while complaining about how my frigid wife won't fvck me on the Internets and to my married AP."
> 
> ...




Did you read my post or someone else's?


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

SweetAndSour said:


> Well.. All I hear is he needs sex. (I understand I need sex too)
> 
> He has a sexless marriage.....
> 
> ...


How is my home "not safe for kids"?

Are you projecting? :scratchhead:


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Indeed. Of course, he has little to lose at this point. *He wants to spend more time with his wife, who gave lukewarm - perhaps even dismissive - response to his suggestion.*


Correct....but after my divorce suggestion she is willing to try. She seems sincere. We'll see. I would love to get this straightened out with her. I really love her.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> Cobalt, you're playing with fire. I get that it's a confidence boost but you're in a place many affairs start from.


Point taken. Thank you.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

woundedwarrior said:


> My ex wife tried that solution too, lean on a "friend" of the opposite sex, who can better understand your situation etc., Phone calls became meet ups, became sex. Cheating, EA or PA is like pressing that definitive "NUKE" button on your marriage and watching the mushroom cloud. Usually you end up with neither woman in the end and your kid is SOL. Think about it.


I will think about it but I have no plans on letting it get that far. Thanks!


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Cobalt said:


> Thank you Theseus.
> 
> I know people are trying to help but sometimes they jump to conclusions. She is a friend but not an EA in my opinion. People may have different criteria though so call it what you want. I know what it is.
> 
> ...


You obviously know the contents of the emails more than any of us. So all I'd ask is what your wife's response would be, if she saw your entire communication thread? Would she says its just harmless communication?

C


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

PBear said:


> You obviously know the contents of the emails more than any of us. So all I'd ask is what your wife's response would be, if she saw your entire communication thread? Would she says its just harmless communication?
> 
> C


Nope.

but she wouldn't like my posting our business on this forum either. Or things I tell my close male friends. Or sexual fantasies about other women.

She doesn't need to know everything. I don't know what she tells her friends or family either. 

Finally, just because you or even the majority of people here would not agree with an OSF, that doesn't make you right. That's just your opinions.


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## spunkycat08 (Nov 14, 2013)

Cobalt said:


> Nope.
> 
> but she wouldn't like my posting our business on this forum either. Or things I tell my close male friends. Or sexual fantasies about other women.
> 
> ...


Ok...

So what are you going to do about this?


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Tread very carefully my friend, the ice grows very thin where you are walking.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

spunkycat08 said:


> Ok...
> 
> So what are you going to do about this?


read the OP



NoChoice said:


> Tread very carefully my friend, the ice grows very thin where you are walking.


noted  thanks


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Hey Cobalt,
> 
> I have a wife and two kids just like you. My marriage has been in some tough spots, and just like you I found a female friend to talk through things (yes she was just a friend) and my wife was privileged to all our conversations. But my wife did not like me having this female friend and insisted i end the friendship which I did, even though I felt I needed someone who had a similar situation as me....
> 
> ...


Great post! Thanks BS....I may take you up on that! 

I think people may get the wrong impression that I'm forsaking my time or emotions with my wife on this friend. That is not the case. My wife and I spend every night together with our kids, and when they are with their friends, my wife and I spend time together watching movies or going out for dinner. I want to be intimate with her physically and emotionally. She's not there yet but it has gotten better since I joined here a few months ago and laid it on the line for her. I also see a therapist.

I'm trying...she's trying and we hope to be where you guys are someday, brother. :smthumbup:


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## Majestic Starman (Nov 24, 2013)

I agree completely that a friendship does not automatically equate to an EA, so those that responded in kind (imo) come off as judgmental - you're drawing a conclusion without all of the facts.

None-the-less, based on the facts that you did offer, by and large, I agree with most everyone here. You're on a very slippery slope Cobalt... discussing your marriage issues with a female friend - that is without a doubt one of the first steps towards an EA. If that's what you need, get that kind of help professionally. If you start having thoughts about this other woman during the times when you're not together, or find yourself wanting to spend time with her when you are apart, then I think you've slipped on this slope. 

Also, I think that coming onto discussion forum, posting your issues, and specifically telling people not to offer advice seems manipulative and controlling to me. This place is like virtual group therapy. You're here because you (whether consciously or not) want or need help and/or guidance. Be willing to accept it.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Cobalt said:


> Nope.
> 
> but she wouldn't like my posting our business on this forum either. Or things I tell my close male friends. Or sexual fantasies about other women.
> 
> ...


Just as an FYI, I have female friends. One of my closest friends is a woman, actually. And I have other female friends who I talk to regularly, go running with, etc.

But, when you preface your description of your relationship with "we haven't had sex", that raises big red flags. At least in here. Which is why I asked if the communication between you and your friend is on the up and up. Only you and your friend know the contents of that communication. Does it include flirting? Does it cover sexual issues? 

In any case, you're the one that has to live your life, and I wish you well. Likely, just by being here you'll be aware of some of the warning signs, and can keep from veering off the "healthy" path.

C


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Cobalt said:


> 2) I have made a close female friend during this process. *She is married too and in a similar situation. We have not had sex but we do email quite a bit and support each other.* Without her, I was too needy with my wife. Now I feel more like the person I was before the marriage started going south. I don't give a **** if anyone approves of my friendship. It's been great for her and I. *My friendship with this women hinders nothing in my marriage. Maybe it would for other people but not me.*


 Just keep this in mind.. one of the Best threads on TAM...

*>>* http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/21172-never-say-never.html

Personally I KNOW I would fall in that situation.. no doubt about it.. I'd have to get out 1st.. Just saying..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cobalt said:


> She is a friend but not an EA in my opinion.


Do you tell her things you'd be ashamed for your wife to hear?

Yes?

Then it's an EA.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cobalt said:


> That doesn't work for me so I basically said change or I am going to file for divorce. She then said she will try to change in small steps, be patient, etc. I agreed and now were are in that process.


Then explain what's wrong with handing your LB questionnaire to her so she can see what you're unhappy about.

And why you can't give her one to fill out. Do you only want HER to change to please YOU, or are you really interested in a fulfilling relationship that BOTH of you enjoy?


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

Cobalt said:


> How is my home "not safe for kids"?
> 
> Are you projecting? :scratchhead:


Don't take me wrong. If I was projecting with the experience I have, I would be telling you to "loose that ***** and she is definetely cheating on you" but I saw what a divorce does to kids.

Your kids will loose their home, their core family probably in a year or so. It is brewing under their feet. Thats pretty unsafe. Poor kids.

May be I missed some of the things you wrote but I still can't understand why your family is heading there. 

If my girlfriend behaved like your wife or had an EA like you do, I'd leave her. 

But as a father, I'd look for ways to avoid oncoming disaster. I'd take my wife of so many years and mother of my kids more seriously as a partner for solving the problems together. 

Your wife is distant, frigid but no suspicion of any affairs on her part, is that all ?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You still need to read No More Mr Nice Guy.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Majestic Starman said:


> I agree completely that a friendship does not automatically equate to an EA, so those that responded in kind (imo) come off as judgmental - you're drawing a conclusion without all of the facts.
> 
> None-the-less, based on the facts that you did offer, by and large, I agree with most everyone here. You're on a very slippery slope Cobalt... discussing your marriage issues with a female friend - that is without a doubt one of the first steps towards an EA. If that's what you need, get that kind of help professionally. If you start having thoughts about this other woman during the times when you're not together, or find yourself wanting to spend time with her when you are apart, then I think you've slipped on this slope.
> 
> Also, I think that coming onto discussion forum, posting your issues, and specifically telling people not to offer advice seems manipulative and controlling to me. This place is like virtual group therapy. You're here because you (whether consciously or not) want or need help and/or guidance. Be willing to accept it.


Thanks for the reply. 

I am getting professional help and I told my therapist about my OSF. As far as the advice thing, feel free to offer advice and opinions but I am in a better place now than I was when I first joined here seeking advice. My wife and I have a plan. I'm not going to keep second-guessing it. 

I didn't mean to come off that way.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

PBear said:


> Just as an FYI, I have female friends. One of my closest friends is a woman, actually. And I have other female friends who I talk to regularly, go running with, etc.
> 
> But, when you preface your description of your relationship with "we haven't had sex", that raises big red flags. At least in here. Which is why I asked if the communication between you and your friend is on the up and up. Only you and your friend know the contents of that communication. Does it include flirting? Does it cover sexual issues?
> 
> ...


Thank you very much!

Most of our communication is via email. We don't talk about sexual issues. It did get flirty a few times but we have squashed it when it does. I think if we were both single then it may be a different story. We both love our spouses and support each other to that end.

I have had OSF my whole life so this is not anything new to me. I really enjoy the company of women.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Just keep this in mind.. one of the Best threads on TAM...
> 
> *>>* http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/21172-never-say-never.html
> 
> Personally I KNOW I would fall in that situation.. no doubt about it.. I'd have to get out 1st.. Just saying..


Cool...I'll check it out...thanks!



turnera said:


> Do you tell her things you'd be ashamed for your wife to hear?
> 
> Yes?
> 
> Then it's an EA.


Yes.



turnera said:


> Then explain what's wrong with handing your LB questionnaire to her so she can see what you're unhappy about.
> 
> And why you can't give her one to fill out. Do you only want HER to change to please YOU, or are you really interested in a fulfilling relationship that BOTH of you enjoy?


We didn't use a questionnaire but we have both expressed our concerns and needs. Now we need to let it play out.



SweetAndSour said:


> *But as a father, I'd look for ways to avoid oncoming disaster. I'd take my wife of so many years and mother of my kids more seriously as a partner for solving the problems together. *
> 
> Your wife is distant, frigid but no suspicion of any affairs on her part, is that all ?


That's exactly what we are doing. I have wrote that several times.

I don't understand your last question. Could you re-phrase it?



turnera said:


> You still need to read No More Mr Nice Guy.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

If your wife was having the same kind of conversations and friendship with a man, would you be Ok with it?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cobalt said:


>


Then explain the circumstances that resulted in her no longer having sex with you.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

turnera said:


> Do you tell her things you'd be ashamed for your wife to hear?
> 
> Yes?
> 
> Then it's an EA.


 Does your wife know the full extent of your relationship with this other woman? If not, then this is another indication of an EA.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

@OP: The problem with a sexless marriage is that the spouse that denies you sex is misusing your marriage vows. They have turned your vow of monogamy and turned it into a vow of celibacy. That was not the deal.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

TRy said:


> Does your wife know the full extent of your relationship with this other woman? If not, then this is another indication of an EA.


No she does not. I think the fact that she seems to be trying to make this work rather than "deal with it" attitude is making me re-evaluate the OSF. It will be hard to not have contact with her...



turnera said:


> Then explain the circumstances that resulted in her no longer having sex with you.





TRy said:


> @OP: The problem with a sexless marriage is that the spouse that denies you sex is misusing your marriage vows. They have turned your vow of monogamy and turned it into a vow of celibacy. That was not the deal.


She has given me reasons ranging from: low libido, holding grudges over arguments 5-10 years ago, too tired, no time because of work and kids, etc...

@TRy: I agree. I have pointed this out. She said she will try. We will see.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

It sounds like you kind of have a plan.... but no actual action. Shouldn't the plan have steps/actions/accountability? 

Seems like it should be more than going out to eat or watching a movie. Although those are nice "quality time" activities.... those are things you would do anyway, regardless of the sex life. 

Maybe ask her for a few "hot date" ideas. Things that would be exciting for her..... and see if you can make them happen. Kind of like making points in her mind. The more points you make.... the better chance of her wanting sex. 

Does she go to therapy too? I think it would be important to see her working at figuring out the sexless thing.... her excuses are lame and she should SHOW that she cares by taking action. 

Just saying it, and waiting to see how it plays out seems like the same as doing nothing. 

Good luck. And ya, there should be no problem having a OSF.... but if you've always had OSFs.... wouldn't wifey be ok with it?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cobalt said:


> No she does not.


Another sign it's an EA.



Cobalt said:


> making me re-evaluate the OSF. It will be hard to not have contact with her...


The BIGGEST sign it's an EA.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Cobalt said:


> Thank you very much!
> 
> Most of our communication is via email. We don't talk about sexual issues. It did get flirty a few times but we have squashed it when it does. I think if we were both single then it may be a different story. We both love our spouses and support each other to that end.
> 
> *I have had OSF my whole life so this is not anything new to me. I really enjoy the company of women. *


Could this possibly have anything to do with why your wife is uninterested in having an intimate relationship with you?


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

SunnyT said:


> It sounds like you kind of have a plan.... but no actual action. Shouldn't the plan have steps/actions/accountability?
> 
> Seems like it should be more than going out to eat or watching a movie. Although those are nice "quality time" activities.... those are things you would do anyway, regardless of the sex life.
> 
> ...


She said before when we talked about it too much and I was too pushy. We are going to try it her way and see what happens.

I agree, I would like to have a plan and if this "let's be spontaneous and give her a chance to make the first move for a change" doesn't work out then I will insist on a plan or a divorce. I am willing to be more patient since we have kids. 

She is not in therapy and doesn't want to be.

She wouldn't be ok with this OSF under our current circumstances.

thanks!


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> Another sign it's an EA.
> 
> The BIGGEST sign it's an EA.


OK...call it whatever you want



Blondilocks said:


> Could this possibly have anything to do with why your wife is uninterested in having an intimate relationship with you?


absolutely not. I listed all of the reasons in another post.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

Cobalt said:


> I don't understand your last question. Could you re-phrase it?


Sure.......

I said, I understand that your marriage is lame but I don't understand how that take you to exit so quick like talking about divorce and feeling justified to have a special (girl) friend. 

On another note, I understand that your marriage is in serious trouble. I try to believe that it can be fixable.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Having an emotional affair.

Yet says he wants to save marriage.

Yet doesn't want advice...

Because he doesn't give a sh!t what any of us think.

And so you started this thread because?


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

So give yourself a mental time limit.... I get the "wait and see if anything changes" thing now. A month? 2 months? Then, try it your way.... schedule events and invite her to join and if she doesn't....then file. 

I think in the meantime, sneak some stuff in.... like TRY to be spontaneous and see if it flies. Plan a date, something fun to look forward to. I guess, woo her. Sometimes when it doesn't look like the other person is really doing anything, you just keep trying and see if it sparks SOMETHING. Maybe not a cure for the whole problem, but maybe enough to get the happy feelings, the lovey feeling going.... maybe. 

This way, if you do end up getting a divorce, you can go with your head up knowing that you've tried everything you can think of....regardless of whether she tried or not.

ETA: Ask her if there is anything that you don't usually do that she wishes you would. Who knows?" It could be random things that you wouldn't think she cares about.... like putting gas in her car for her, or starting her car in the morning before she leaves for work. Not become her maid, but handle a couple little things that make her feel looooooved.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cobalt said:


> She has given me reasons ranging from: low libido, holding grudges over arguments 5-10 years ago, too tired, no time because of work and kids, etc...


This is why you might benefit from the book. It talks about how you can lead your family. And the book Married Man Sex Life Primer goes into further detail about how you can start to become ATTRACTIVE to her again. So that she WANTS to have sex with you. You've become part of the furniture. 

If she still loves you, this is completely reversable. She's given you valuable information that you can act on. No, this is NOT all on her. You're both responsible for the poor state of your marriage.

You guys haven't resolved past issues; that means your communication style needs a big overhaul. She's tired; are you sharing home chores 50/50 or does she tend to keep doing things once you're both home while you don't? How many times a month do you take over the kids so she can go out and do what she wants by herself, or take them away from home so she can unwind at home without being 'on' for the family?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

*"I know people are trying to help but sometimes they jump to conclusions. She is a friend but not an EA in my opinion. People may have different criteria though so call it what you want. I know what it is.*"

Pardon my French, but you don't know diddly. On the 14th you were posting that you and your lady friend were in a big fight because she was jealous of you possibly flirting with another coworker.
NOOOO! This isn't an EA. Uh-uh.

NOOOO! Your wife couldn't possibly be distancing herself because she feels she's married to the town *****.

Just keep on keepin' on and see where your policy of recruiting OSFs gets you. My bet is Divorce Court.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cobalt,

She's afraid to tell you the truth which is both simple and painful: she's simply not that into you

And that's a combo deal. A lack of raw desire, lack of respect and lack of getting a good feeling just from being in your presence. 

I do believe that your approach to this situation is hurting you. For example: 
- you explicitly promise not to sleep with anyone else 
AND
- are in some sort of EA 

The simpler, cleaner and more honest message goes like this:
- we can either work on this desire issue together - which means you need to be totally honest about what's causing the lack of respect and desire
OR
- we take all the pressure off you - and I'll get my needs met outside the marriage 

If she would rather divorce than accept either option, than you have your answer. 

If she chooses option 1, you need to apply some common sense to 
what she says. 

The biggest game (deception) in these type situations is the game of resentment. It's simple:
- I have resentments 
And
- Won't go to counseling 
And
- Have no idea if I'll ever get over them 

The resentment game allows her to avoid telling you why she isn't attracted/doesn't respect you. 







Cobalt said:


> OK...call it whatever you want
> 
> 
> 
> absolutely not. I listed all of the reasons in another post.


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> *"I know people are trying to help but sometimes they jump to conclusions. She is a friend but not an EA in my opinion. People may have different criteria though so call it what you want. I know what it is.*"
> 
> Pardon my French, but you don't know diddly. On the 14th you were posting that you and your lady friend were in a big fight because she was jealous of you possibly flirting with another coworker.
> NOOOO! This isn't an EA. Uh-uh.
> ...


so angry! :lol: grrrr....


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

SunnyT said:


> So give yourself a mental time limit.... I get the "wait and see if anything changes" thing now. A month? 2 months? Then, try it your way.... schedule events and invite her to join and if she doesn't....then file.
> 
> I think in the meantime, sneak some stuff in.... like TRY to be spontaneous and see if it flies. Plan a date, something fun to look forward to. I guess, woo her. Sometimes when it doesn't look like the other person is really doing anything, you just keep trying and see if it sparks SOMETHING. Maybe not a cure for the whole problem, but maybe enough to get the happy feelings, the lovey feeling going.... maybe.
> 
> ...


Excellent advice and my plan exactly. Thanks!



turnera said:


> This is why you might benefit from the book. It talks about how you can lead your family. And the book Married Man Sex Life Primer goes into further detail about how you can start to become ATTRACTIVE to her again. So that she WANTS to have sex with you. You've become part of the furniture.
> 
> If she still loves you, this is completely reversable. She's given you valuable information that you can act on. No, this is NOT all on her. You're both responsible for the poor state of your marriage.
> 
> You guys haven't resolved past issues; that means your communication style needs a big overhaul. She's tired; are you sharing home chores 50/50 or does she tend to keep doing things once you're both home while you don't? How many times a month do you take over the kids so she can go out and do what she wants by herself, or take them away from home so she can unwind at home without being 'on' for the family?


OK...ok...you win!  I'll read those goddamn books! 

I'm real good about taking the kids and sharing chores. She has no complaints in that dept.



badsanta said:


> Ummm.... This one jumped out at me. It is proven in marriages that there will always be issues that are somewhat irreconcilable, but you should never give up engaging in conversations to try to reconcile are alleviate some of these issues.
> 
> If you want to get your wife's attention, start tackling some of these old problems and do not blow this off as if the statute of limitations has made them into a moot point.
> 
> ...


Thanks again Santa for some great insight. :toast:

I think that we have talked about the grudges and it ends up being a "that's the way you remember it" argument. 

I'll talk to my therapist and see if re-visiting that is the way to go. Last time she told me not to and focus on now.


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I wonder if her aversion to intimacy is revealed by the personalty traits you reveal by the tone of this thread and your posts. You seem to know what you know and want what you want. If true, forming an intimate and trusting relationship with you would be difficult. The normal give and take, mutual accommodation and compromise of a loving relationship is missing. 

Ultimatum's usually don't work. They back people up into a corner and they resist. Your wife may appear to yield but at the same time she may be planning to get out and needs more time. 

If you don't change, your marriage will die, if it hasn't already. You will have to change anyway. If you D, you have to make yourself attractive to women. You want a psychologically healthy woman so you will be happy.


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> I wonder if her aversion to intimacy is revealed by the personalty traits you reveal by the tone of this thread and your posts. You seem to know what you know and want what you want. If true, forming an intimate and trusting relationship with you would be difficult. The normal give and take, mutual accommodation and compromise of a loving relationship is missing.
> 
> Ultimatum's usually don't work. They back people up into a corner and they resist. Your wife may appear to yield but at the same time she may be planning to get out and needs more time.
> 
> If you don't change, your marriage will die, if it hasn't already. You will have to change anyway. If you D, you have to make yourself attractive to women. You want a psychologically healthy woman so you will be happy.


:lol:

ok......whatever


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cobalt said:


> I think that we have talked about the grudges and it ends up being a "that's the way you remember it" argument.


It is completely in your control whether you have an ARGUMENT, Cobalt. Most women hate arguments because men are typically more aggressive and usually the women get pushed into the ground during arguments. So even if you OR she was right, in the end, she ends up thinking BAD thoughts when she thinks of you in that circumstance. 

We often tell people, do you want to be right or do you want to be married?

Why can't you just ASK her what her recollection of the incident is, and then just shut up and LISTEN? I can't imagine a sexier thing for a man to do than just ask and then be quiet and listen. Instead of not having to win the argument or refuse to accept her side.

Most likely, she doesn't even care about who was right or wrong. She resents you, YEARS LATER, because you wouldn't back down and you insist on pushing your point. In other words, you care more about being right than pleasing your wife. 

At least that's what SHE sees when she looks at you.

And thus, that's why your relationship is suffering. IMO.

But kudos for coming here and trying to learn. Good first start.


----------



## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

So, you are talking to a woman who is having the same issues with her husband, and keeping that fact from your wife. I don't see how anything could go wrong, blow up in your face, or cause any problems at all. Good luck.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> It is completely in your control whether you have an ARGUMENT, Cobalt. Most women hate arguments because men are typically more aggressive and usually the women get pushed into the ground during arguments. So even if you OR she was right, in the end, she ends up thinking BAD thoughts when she thinks of you in that circumstance.
> 
> we often tell people, do you want to be right or do you want to be married?
> 
> ...


First, thanks for some very good points. I appreciate it. 

I boldfaced a line that seems to be pervasive on these forums is the jumping to conclusions part and subsequent admonishment. I HAVE had MANY conversations about HER side. I've been going to a therapist (a woman) for FOUR years. She has helped me and gave me all of these suggestions which I did already.

So please......before you say something like "just shut up and listen instead of trying to win and not accept her side" maybe get your facts straight, ok?

If I seem annoyed, it's because half of the advice I get here has this nasty tone to it with all kinds of predetermined answers. Maybe SOME people here inject their own bad experiences when trying to give advice. I'm just going to ignore those kind of replies from now on ad concentrate on people who seek first to understand.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Cobalt...the thing is, there are no answers anyone can give you. Each situation is unique. But there are people here who have been in or are in sexless relationships, and some who have moved on from those relationships, and some who have improved a sexless relationship and lived to tell about it. The last category is the smallest one. All we can do is tell you what we lived, heard, or what worked and didn't work for us...and that's what people are doing. So you are hearing from some people here who went through HELL because of a sexless marriage and/or cheating, and what do you expect their "answers" to you would be? The point is...there are no real doctors here and no one who actually knows you or your wife, so there are no actual answers anyone can give you.

So that leaves you here like the rest of us...just sharing our story and perspective.

The nasty tone you "hear" is actually a phenomenon of message boards like this one. A lot of people who have been hurt by something, when talking about what hurt them, tend to sound this way. Be compassionate. We understand that you are hurt like that, too and you may not want to listen to the advice some of us wish we had listened to when we were in your position.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cobalt said:


> So please......before you say something like "just shut up and listen instead of trying to win and not accept her side" maybe get your facts straight, ok?


Did you just not say you've discussed the same subjects multiple times and keep ending up in an argument? Hard to listen if you're arguing.

Get my facts straight? My, aren't you the combative one? Case in point.

Look. Take our advice or leave it, no skin off our nose. But the reason most people can't fix their own problems is they are too close to it. The beauty of a place like this is that we don't have your baggage and when we hear your story, we see the holes in it because we're not blinded by our need to look good.

Most people who come here naturally paint themselves in the best possible light. It's human nature. You say thank you a lot to us, yet you won't concede on things like this. You have to keep showing us that you know better, you know a lot, you don't do what we say we see you doing, etc. Fine. Do that.

But what are you really doing here, if you care more about not being perceived as doing anything wrong?

We all have a lot to learn, Cobalt. And the best way to do that is to start with humility.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cobalt said:


> If I seem annoyed, it's because half of the advice I get here has this nasty tone to it with all kinds of predetermined answers.


So? 



Cobalt said:


> Maybe SOME people here inject their own bad experiences when trying to give advice.


So?



Cobalt said:


> I'm just going to ignore those kind of replies from now on and concentrate on people who seek first to understand.


Good luck with that.

Let me ask you something. You accuse us of attitudes. Do you not find that ironic?


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Cobalt...the thing is, there are no answers anyone can give you. Each situation is unique. But there are people here who have been in or are in sexless relationships, and some who have moved on from those relationships, and some who have improved a sexless relationship and lived to tell about it. The last category is the smallest one. All we can do is tell you what we lived, heard, or what worked and didn't work for us...and that's what people are doing. So you are hearing from some people here who went through HELL because of a sexless marriage and/or cheating, and what do you expect their "answers" to you would be? The point is...there are no real doctors here and no one who actually knows you or your wife, so there are no actual answers anyone can give you.
> 
> So that leaves you here like the rest of us...just sharing our story and perspective.
> 
> The nasty tone you "hear" is actually a phenomenon of message boards like this one. A lot of people who have been hurt by something, when talking about what hurt them, tend to sound this way. Be compassionate. We understand that you are hurt like that, too and you may not want to listen to the advice some of us wish we had listened to when we were in your position.


Good post. Thank you! I will reflect upon this.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

turnera said:


> Do you tell her things you'd be ashamed for your wife to hear?
> 
> Yes?
> 
> Then it's an EA.



Then I guess I'm guilty at some point or the other of having an "EA" with my friends, my parents, and my children. And so is my spouse.


----------



## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

scatty said:


> So, you are talking to a woman who is having the same issues with her husband, and keeping that fact from your wife. I don't see how anything could go wrong, blow up in your face, or cause any problems at all. Good luck.




Since the OP already had no sex life and is now on the brink of divorce, please tell us how this could "blow up" or get any worse.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Scandal, shame, losing the respect of your kids or family or friends, the wife finding out and taking him to the cleaners...


----------



## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

I know exactly where you're coming from and no one here will be sympathetic unless they've experienced it.

If this is the way she has become, then that's her choice. She knows the possible consequences. She's not going to change. People rarely change long term. And honestly is it even fair to expect her too? She is who she is. I spent YEARS trying to get my wife to come back around. All for nothing.

Either divorce or decide you're going to live with things the way they are. If I had it to do over again I would've left her after the first 6 months of no sex, much less letting it go on for years.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Cobalt said:


> So I posted a few months back about the sexless marriage and the lack of affection from my wife.
> 
> Some things have changed since then:
> 
> ...


It's good you told her you want to spend more time together since she says that is lacking. Women do need an emotional connection in a LTR. Have you had sex yet? How often do you have sex? How long does "in the near future" mean?




Cobalt said:


> 2) I have made a close female friend during this process. She is married too and in a similar situation. We have not had sex but we do email quite a bit and support each other. Without her, I was too needy with my wife. Now I feel more like the person I was before the marriage started going south. I don't give a **** if anyone approves of my friendship. It's been great for her and I. My friendship with this women hinders nothing in my marriage. Maybe it would for other people but not me.


You are ripe for an affair. So is the other woman. Just saying. 

I hope you and your wife can work on this. If not, consider getting out. Sexlessness can destroy a relationship when one partner wants it and the other doesn't.


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Theseus said:


> Then I guess I'm guilty at some point or the other of having an "EA" with my friends, my parents, and my children. And so is my spouse.


:rofl:



BeachGuy said:


> I know exactly where you're coming from and no one here will be sympathetic unless they've experienced it.
> 
> If this is the way she has become, then that's her choice. She knows the possible consequences. She's not going to change. People rarely change long term. And honestly is it even fair to expect her too? She is who she is. I spent YEARS trying to get my wife to come back around. All for nothing.
> 
> Either divorce or decide you're going to live with things the way they are. If I had it to do over again I would've left her after the first 6 months of no sex, much less letting it go on for years.


I was going to stay together for the kids but I realized that is not going to work for me. When I brought up how much this is affecting our relationship, she said she would try to change but to be patient. This is after a year of saying she would not change.

She says she loves me, is attracted to me and wants to be married but doesn't have a desire for sex. She said she will keep trying.



Jellybeans said:


> It's good you told her you want to spend more time together since she says that is lacking. Women do need an emotional connection in a LTR. Have you had sex yet? How often do you have sex? How long does "in the near future" mean?


We have sex now like once every 2-3 months.

I don't have exact dates but if I see incremental improvements then I will stay until we get this squared away. If not, then we will divorce.[/QUOTE]




Jellybeans said:


> You are ripe for an affair. So is the other woman. Just saying.
> 
> I hope you and your wife can work on this. If not, consider getting out. Sexlessness can destroy a relationship when one partner wants it and the other doesn't.


Yes, I know. I even told my wife that I can't live like this because either of us could be ripe for an affair but she says she has absolutely no desire for sex with anyone. I do....and my female friend does as well but we are discussing stricter boundaries or ending our friendship if we can't follow them.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Cobalt said:


> We have sex now like once every 2-3 months.




I'm sorry.



Cobalt said:


> Yes, I know. I even told my wife that I can't live like this because either of us could be ripe for an affair but she says she has absolutely no desire for sex with anyone. I do....and my female friend does as well but we are discussing stricter boundaries or ending our friendship if we can't follow them.


Remember that the other woman has a husband. So you don't want to go there at all. 

Re: your wife - have you suggested an open marriage (where you can sleep with other women)? Not saying I advocate this but I have heard of cases where one person allows them for the other if they aren't willing to have sex.

If things don't improve, divorce is an option, too.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Jellybeans said:


> I'm sorry.
> 
> Remember that the other woman has a husband. So you don't want to go there at all.
> 
> ...


uh yeah.....that's not good  2-3 months is not cutting it.

Not going there with the OSF....unless we both get divorced, then I'm not promising anything (watch we get 10 posts that this kind of thinking is why my marriage is bad  )

We both don't want an open marriage. It's either we work it out or divorce.

Thank you.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Jellybeans said:


> Re: your wife - have you suggested an open marriage (where you can sleep with other women)? Not saying I advocate this but I have heard of cases where one person allows them for the other if they aren't willing to have sex.


I've always wondered about open marriage arrangements that start under these circumstances (MD/HD spouse isn't getting enough attention from his/her LD spouse). I mean... it seems like most of them would be on pretty shaky ground from the start.

And does the LD spouse get to "play" as well? And how devastated should the MD/HD spouse be when the LD spouse indicates a willingness -- or outright desire -- to do so?



Jellybeans said:


> If things don't improve, divorce is an option, too.


Word.


----------



## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

turnera said:


> Scandal, shame, losing the respect of your kids or family or friends, the wife finding out and taking him to the cleaners...



Even if it is an EA, it's unlikely any or all of the above would happen. Heck, even if it's a PA. This isn't the 1940s anymore. 

Actually, fear of all of those are probably the reason why the OP (and many others) drag their marriages out far longer than they should.


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## Fightforyourmarriage346 (Jan 18, 2015)

I am sorry about your sexless marriage. I just want to say this as a wife. Sometimes we woman feel tired of giving and giving, and we want to be on the getting side. I mean most woman out there they do the cooking, cleaning, taking care of kids, homework, trying to be the wife that he always dreamed about. but what about our desires, and our dream husband? I mean, do you guys ever do your homework about the type of husband we wanted, or what we want? maybe we want you guys to help more at home, or buy something nice, like a nice outfit or jewelry or something, surprise us, or take us out to some place we want to go. maybe if we are happy, and you guys tender to our needs, treat us like queens, the sex will come naturally. your friendship with the other woman, even though you are not having any sexual relationship, there is some sort of pleasure there, it will only take the feelings you have for your wife less and less. like you said, you stayed in the marriage for your kids. you dont' want to find yourself 10 years from now regretting the loss of your spouse or children. think deeply and fight for your marriage and children.

Homepage


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

turnera said:


> Do you tell her things you'd be ashamed for your wife to hear?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If this is the benchmark then I'm single!

Whopeeee!!!


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera is on ignore  sorry...I had enough


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yay! I can say whatever I want now! lol

fwiw, I don't make announcements of people I put on ignore; I don't need to 'make a statement' about that person just to look better. I just don't read their stuff.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Why is tunera still allowed to post in my threads? 

I'm filing a restraining order against her bad advice!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You have to go thru the obligatory drilling to establish TAM street cred. After 50 pages of DIY solutions that don't work for hardcore cases you get to join the Indifference Corps and if you're in really pi$$y mood you get to join the elite Vengeance Brigades 

Now where do I buy a high voltage electric eel?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cobalt said:


> Why is tunera still allowed to post in my threads?
> 
> I'm filing a restraining order against her bad advice!


What difference does it make if you cannot see what she says?


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Cobalt would never put anyone on 'ignore'. He'd have to give a sh*t, first.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Blondilocks is now also on ignore


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## spunkycat08 (Nov 14, 2013)

Cobalt said:


> Blondilocks is now also on ignore


OP:

Is this behavior of yours necessary?

The behavior I have seen lately


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I believe Cobalt is playing (as am I).


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Woooosh. Don't you hate having to explain a joke? I sure did not get it!


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## spunkycat08 (Nov 14, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> I believe Cobalt is playing (as am I).


Ok...

Not part this clique.

So I do not pay that much attention.


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## BrokenLady (Jan 19, 2015)

I'm new here so please forgive if I do something wrong.

Was your wife sexually confident before you had kids? I used to be very proud of my body, then health issues, scars etc. weight gain from kids, boobs not being as pert as they once were etc. makes me very insecure. My husband likes skinny women, makes comments about over weight ladies. He's so insecure that he won't take the kids to the pool because of his 'middle aged spread'. It's all given me a complex. 
If your sex life has only deteriorated since having kids it could be insecurity. Has her body changed a lot? Has she had her hormones tested. Often kids & age makes them out of whack resulting in no sex drive. My friend had hormone therapy & it turned her into a "Randy Teenager", her words!!
Have you tried close activities, massage etc. without going all the way? Make her feel like you love her body. If she's heavier voicing your pleasure at increased bust size etc. could make her feel sexier. It's horrible to know you're not attractive to your husband, even if it's just in your own head ;-(


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Cobalt said:


> :lol:
> 
> ok......whatever


You kind of proving her point . Is this how you have been reacting to your wife's complaints, you will be another victim of "Walkaway Wife Epidemic"...


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Ouch! Got my sympathies. Will she go to counseling with you? Sorry if already answered and I missed it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

spunkycat08 said:


> OP:
> 
> Is this behavior of yours necessary?
> 
> The behavior I have seen lately


see below 



Blondilocks said:


> I believe Cobalt is playing (as am I).


of course











NobodySpecial said:


> Woooosh. Don't you hate having to explain a joke? I sure did not get it!


yes  I try to lighten the mood a little with my off kilter humor.

I love everyone here!


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

hang on...I will answer the other posts above later tonight. good questions!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> You kind of proving her point . Is this how you have been reacting to your wife's complaints, you will be another victim of "Walkaway Wife Epidemic"...



If :lol: 'ing at one's wife caused Walkaway Wife Syndrome my wife would be driving the Mars Observer buggy trying to get as far away as possible from me :lol:


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

john117 said:


> If :lol: 'ing at one's wife caused Walkaway Wife Syndrome my wife would be driving the Mars Observer buggy trying to get as far away as possible from me :lol:


Walkaway wives do not always walk away, at least not for a long time. They might distance themselves, stop sex, hold grudges and resentment, stop talking and working out issues and wait it out until they can leave or just get comfortable as roommates but lose any attraction or desire for a romantic relationship.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Good thing the weather forecast called for frigid with scattered vengeance... A Sarcasm Advisory is also in effect.

After a less than pleasant weekend alone after the girls went back to college J2 opined that I behave this way because she. won't have sex with me... Seizing the opportunity I patiently and kindly explained to her that (a) the one thing worse than no sex is sex with someone who's not into it and (b) that it's not like her actions can hurt me any more than what she's already done and (c) I'm well past anything of the sort anyway.

J2 surprised me by *not* bursting in Lifetime Movie Network tears and only blurted "well you have hurt me too". I smiled and walked away.

Mental note to self to call NASA tomorrow and find out if the Mars Observer is right-hand-side drive. How considerate of me.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I understand you were joking. I'm not blind, you had a :lol:

Just figured it could be helpful to the OP if he didn't know what walkaway wife was and thinks if she's not physically gone, she's not "walked away" Wasn't a direct statement to you, just using your quote as reference.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I know, it's just I had the Mars joke ready to roll 

Today I had my dental exam at a new practice we switched to. The lady dentist looked to be about 16 years old.. So she did that exam with the needle to assess gum health (not great). So she droned on 2, 3, 2... 2, 2, 2.... With bleeding... 2, 3, 3... 2, 3, 4...

When she was done she asked how I am doing. With a straight face I told her lots of 2's and 3's and bleeding, sounded like my high school transcript... She nearly fell off her chair laughing.


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

BrokenLady said:


> I'm new here so please forgive if I do something wrong.
> 
> Was your wife sexually confident before you had kids? I used to be very proud of my body, then health issues, scars etc. weight gain from kids, boobs not being as pert as they once were etc. makes me very insecure. My husband likes skinny women, makes comments about over weight ladies. He's so insecure that he won't take the kids to the pool because of his 'middle aged spread'. It's all given me a complex.
> If your sex life has only deteriorated since having kids it could be insecurity. Has her body changed a lot? Has she had her hormones tested. Often kids & age makes them out of whack resulting in no sex drive. My friend had hormone therapy & it turned her into a "Randy Teenager", her words!!
> Have you tried close activities, massage etc. without going all the way? Make her feel like you love her body. If she's heavier voicing your pleasure at increased bust size etc. could make her feel sexier. It's horrible to know you're not attractive to your husband, even if it's just in your own head ;-(


She was definitely more sexually confident before kids.

She and I are workout fanatics and at the risk of sounding conceited have very good physiques so that's not an issue. I think she is so effin hot!

I have given her massages and it is a good segway (sp?). I will keep that more top of mind. Thanks!


----------



## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Ouch! Got my sympathies. Will she go to counseling with you? Sorry if already answered and I missed it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We went 4 years ago and it was a disaster. We always ended up in a fight afterwards.

I go to therapy on my own. She doesn't want to.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

john117 said:


> Good thing the weather forecast called for frigid with scattered vengeance... A Sarcasm Advisory is also in effect.
> 
> After a less than pleasant weekend alone after the girls went back to college J2 opined that I behave this way because she. won't have sex with me... Seizing the opportunity I patiently and kindly explained to her that (a) the one thing worse than no sex is sex with someone who's not into it and (b) that it's not like her actions can hurt me any more than what she's already done and (c) I'm well past anything of the sort anyway.
> 
> ...


:rofl::rofl: This is just outstandingly side splitting funny.... and could only have been authored by J1 inspired by J2.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cobalt,
The post below is quite helpful. 

The most common narrative in a sexless marriage (less than 10 times per year) is this:

I have very little drive, but I am attracted to you. 

The reason that narrative is so common is that both spouses want to believe it. Unfortunately it's rarely true. 

And it allows both folks to avoid the very personal and painful conversations about desire.

The HD spouse avoids them because the things they might hear are likely very painful. And the LD avoids them because they fear the truth may lead to divorce. 





Cobalt said:


> She was definitely more sexually confident before kids.
> 
> She and I are workout fanatics and at the risk of sounding conceited have very good physiques so that's not an issue. I think she is so effin hot!
> 
> I have given her massages and it is a good segway (sp?). I will keep that more top of mind. Thanks!


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Cobalt,
> The post below is quite helpful.
> 
> The most common narrative in a sexless marriage (less than 10 times per year) is this:
> ...


It could be something like 

I am physically attracted to you but my drive is dependent on my emotional connection with you and past resentments so until/unless those are repaired, I am LD. 

But it sounds like she is trying to say what the issues are, if he can listen to them. Now that his friend is gone he can devote his energy to his wife.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That has just enough threat / blackmail / transactional undertones to make me a bit uncomfortable.

Especially the Swiss Army knife "past resentments" clause. In other words a self fulfilled prophecy.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It's impossible to know whether those resentments are a real part of the problem without knowing specifically what they are. 

For example, was a guy on TAM whose wife claimed their sex life was broken because he forgot to change the batteries in their digital camera 10 years earlier when they went to a friends house because that friend was having a birthday party for their child. 

BTW: the guy profusely apologized in the moment - ten years ago - it was an honest mistake. And plenty of other folks had cameras and took photos....

Specifics are helpful.....





QUOTE=SlowlyGoingCrazy;11578306]It could be something like 

I am physically attracted to you but my drive is dependent on my emotional connection with you and past resentments so until/unless those are repaired, I am LD. 

But it sounds like she is trying to say what the issues are, if he can listen to them. Now that his friend is gone he can devote his energy to his wife.[/QUOTE]


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> It's impossible to know whether those resentments are a real part of the problem without knowing specifically what they are.
> 
> For example, was a guy on TAM whose wife claimed their sex life was broken because he forgot to change the batteries in their digital camera 10 years earlier when they went to a friends house because that friend was having a birthday party for their child.
> 
> ...


What someone says and what someone hears could be much different. That guy's wife may have explained a pattern of being let down and used that time as 1 example. He _heard _that she was withholding sex because of the camera. Unless the wife was also here saying that was the reason, I would be skeptical. 

As far as it being transactional, I don't think so. Lots of people need to feel emotionally safe and vulnerable to have good sex. If that trust was lost and those walls went up, they need to be worked on first.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It could be something like
> 
> I am physically attracted to you but my drive is dependent on my emotional connection with you and past resentments so until/unless those are repaired, I am LD.
> 
> But it sounds like she is trying to say what the issues are, if he can listen to them. Now that his friend is gone he can devote his energy to his wife.


Or it may be that she doesn't enjoy being married to him and has a list of resentments that she hasn't vocalized (common with women). The more a woman resents her man, the less attracted she is. And women rarely have sex unless they're attracted.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yep - that's where the mechanics work - he helps with kids/bills - but the emotions don't. 



QUOTE=turnera;11578898]Or it may be that she doesn't enjoy being married to him and has a list of resentments that she hasn't vocalized (common with women). The more a woman resents her man, the less attracted she is. And women rarely have sex unless they're attracted.[/QUOTE]


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Think of it this way: It may not be that she is LD. It may be that she has an emotionally based sex drive. This is so common for women. 

I'll make a generalization and say that if a man married a woman who was 120lbs, then she gains 200lbs, he may still have a sex drive but may struggle to find her physically attractive. She just doesn't turn him on anymore.

That's what happens when a man is emotionally unaware, cold, detached, complaisant, etc. To his wife, it's like he gained 200 lbs. Until he's THAT man again, the man that gets her motor running emotionally, she won't want him physically.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Cobalt, has your wife talked with her physician about the low desire? Has she stated she has resentments? Has she ever questioned your having OSFs? There is something causing this lack of desire & I haven't seen a post that alludes to the cause.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Blondilocks said:


> Cobalt, has your wife talked with her physician about the low desire? Has she stated she has resentments? Has she ever questioned your having OSFs? There is something causing this lack of desire & I haven't seen a post that alludes to the cause.


I think the original post points to a cause. If he chooses to connect with another woman emotionally rather than focus on the issue with his wife, I don't think it's much of a stretch to image other poor choices he's made that have cut off her desire. He may say otherwise, but his choice is telling.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SurpriseMyself said:


> That's what happens when a man is emotionally unaware, cold, detached, complaisant, etc. To his wife, it's like he gained 200 lbs. Until he's THAT man again, the man that gets her motor running emotionally, she won't want him physically.


Or aggressive or condescending or combative or snide.

I'll pull out the old Love Bucket analogy again. You meet your partner's Emotional Needs and it fills up their Love Bucket; when they look at you (like when you're dating and being extra nice to each other) and feel love. Then you get together and you start to take each other for granted; feel entitled to do a little Love Busting (things that you know harm your partner). Each LB pokes a hole in that bucket, and a little bit of the love drips out of the hole. You do a few more LBs and a few more holes show up. Since you're not addressing those LBs by no longer DOING them, purposely or unintentionally, they don't heal up. Even if you keep showing love by meeting the ENs, your partner is still losing love (and attraction) for you because, well, you won't stop LBing, them, dammit. 

Eventually, if you LB enough, all you have left is an old, holy bucket that NO amount of love or meeting ENs can ever fill; the love just keeps right on flowing out the gaping holes.

For a woman, that usually translates into not wanting to, or being ABLE to, have sex with that man. She has to be attracted to him to want to have sex with him. The only solution is to find out the truth, find those LBs (we all have 'em), and eliminate them. Once you do that, the other person starts feeling more and more relieved, more loved, and starts to want to return the favor. 

Of course BOTH of you should be doing this. But if only one of you is here or only one of you is willing to address the issue, well, the responsibility falls on your shoulders to get the ball rolling.

I've seen it work. Swiftly.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

The 'not feeling close because of not spending enough time together' is too vague to be useful. Why and when did it start? What's preventing increasing time together? 

We need info, dadnabit.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> *It could be something like
> 
> I am physically attracted to you but my drive is dependent on my emotional connection with you and past resentments so until/unless those are repaired, I am LD.*
> 
> But it sounds like she is trying to say what the issues are, if he can listen to them. *Now that his friend is gone he can devote his energy to his wife*.


Correct first paragraph--thanks!

Last sentence is off because my wife does not like me too be too "try hard" and "force romance" She even gets embarrassed when I compliment her. Trust me, I put a lot of time into her, regardless of the OSF.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

A woman who gets embarrassed over a compliment is a woman who isn't used to getting them. Unless, the compliment is vulgar.

What I am going to suggest may be counter-intuitive but what about implementing the 180? She doesn't want you to chase her, so let her chase you. Just don't get your kicks on route 66.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It could be something like
> 
> I am physically attracted to you but my drive is dependent on my emotional connection with you and past resentments so until/unless those are repaired, I am LD.
> 
> But it sounds like she is trying to say what the issues are, if he can listen to them. Now that his friend is gone he can devote his energy to his wife.


:iagree:

I am normally very high drive and would want sex every single day, but in the last couple weeks, I have had zero sex drive because I don't feel emotionally connected to my husband. The thought of having sex with him does not at all sound appealing right now. Emotions are a big part of sex for many women.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Cobalt 
What was it about your interaction with the OW that drew you in? How did she make you feel? She talked about her problems, I assume and you did the same. You were empathetic and compassionate with each other. Do you see a way of having a connection with your wife in that way? 

Look at yourself and your reactions to the help you solicited. If someone says one thing that you don't like, they are beneath your consideration. The people who agree with what you already think are praised for their insight. You have less than 200 post and you already have people on your ignore list. How did these people manage to piss you off after your short tenure on TAM? 

Are you the same with your wife? Ignore her when she doesn't live up to your standards. Overpowering, doctrinaire, righteous and fault finding (but not personal faults) comes to mind. 

I don't think your wife is the problem, you two are incompatible. A woman who is more like you might be better. A strong woman with a thick skin, who can give you as good as she gets. Probably not the type of woman you would consider. A relationship with yourself, how would you like that? 

Want more out of life, then give away what you want without expectations. You don't get more than that. First, be kind to your wife, consistently, just because that's the way people should treat each other. Listen to her without judgement and censure, pretty much the way you want people to treat you in this community. Validate her feelings and needs even though they are different from what you expect.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Think of it this way: It may not be that she is LD. It may be that she has an emotionally based sex drive. This is so common for women.
> 
> I'll make a generalization and say that if a man married a woman who was 120lbs, then she gains 200lbs, he may still have a sex drive but may struggle to find her physically attractive. She just doesn't turn him on anymore.
> 
> That's what happens when a man is emotionally unaware, cold, detached, complaisant, etc. To his wife, it's like he gained 200 lbs. Until he's THAT man again, the man that gets her motor running emotionally, she won't want him physically.


This is absolutely target on. Men gripe about lack of sex but ladies need more than just wham-bam. They have to have an emotional connection, they have to know they are loved and wanted by their husbands. If they feel unwanted for everything but sex they feel used and unloved.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Two years ago I would have bought it. Since joining TAM I have my doubts. I'm not talking about having a totally unresponsive emotional zombie husband, but more of the "my wife is my best friend and my marriage is perfect except for sex" type posts that seem to be so common.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Anonymous07 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I am normally very high drive and would want sex every single day, but in the last couple weeks, I have had zero sex drive because I don't feel emotionally connected to my husband. The thought of having sex with him does not at all sound appealing right now. Emotions are a big part of sex for many women.


yep. I can sit the whole day at my desk with my legs crossed tight, horny like hell. Then in the evening he pouts and barks at me, and I am dry like a desert


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

john117 said:


> Two years ago I would have bought it. Since joining TAM I have my doubts. I'm not talking about having a totally unresponsive emotional zombie husband, but more of the "my wife is my best friend and my marriage is perfect except for sex" type posts that seem to be so common.


Interesting that your quote is from the man's perspective. Maybe he does think the marriage is perfect. I'm thinking she doesn't. Deep down something is missing in how she feels about her man.

It may be that love and bonding and trust have broken to the point that, while you can be friends and raise kids together, the pilot light has gone out. Once it does, once the line has been crossed, I don't know if there's a way to reignite it. 

Speaking from my own experience only, although I dare say many women on this site find themselves here too, I can safely say that I've been trying for years now. I tried communicating, posting here, reading books, talking to friends. My H did none of those things, even as he said clearly that he doesn't want us to divorce and wants our marriage to work. But years go by without him really doing anything differently, so his words didn't match his actions.

He is finally, at the 11th hour (as I was leaving to go sign a lease on an apartment so I could move out), he opened up to me. He admitted that many of the things I've been saying for years he now believes (after reading the 5 love languages) and that he is sorry he didn't listen to me, accused me of always wanting to be right instead of to save our marriage, etc.

I don't know if I've crossed that line, but I have my doubts that what he can do at this point will be enough. That's the sad truth of it. Marital problems are not resolved with more of the same or waiting them out. Shrugging your shoulders and saying, "she's my best friend and we have a great marriage except for sex" is, to me, willful blindness. On the other hand, the LD spouse must really be willing to look inside themselves and understand why they are where they are, why they are LD. It takes two to fix a marriage, no matter what the problems.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

john117 said:


> Two years ago I would have bought it. Since joining TAM I have my doubts. I'm not talking about having a totally unresponsive emotional zombie husband, but more of the "my wife is my best friend and my marriage is perfect except for sex" type posts that seem to be so common.


But again, we don't have the wife's side and unless you know both you don't have the full picture. There are other reasons that are just as likely. 

Walk-away wives usually spend a lot of time trying to say what the problem is, they just aren't heard. By the time they stop sex they've also stopped talking and trying so he doesn't remember the complaining from before he just notices the sex and intimacy stopped.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Sign the lease. Your husband is hoovering you and will only do the minimal to make you think he's 'getting it'. Before you know it, it's back to business as usual. If he truly starts doing the work, you can always get back together.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

slowlygoingcrazy said:


> but again, we don't have the wife's side and unless you know both you don't have the full picture. There are other reasons that are just as likely.
> 
> Walk-away wives usually spend a lot of time trying to say what the problem is, they just aren't heard. By the time they stop sex they've also stopped talking and trying so he doesn't remember the complaining from before he just notices the sex and intimacy stopped.


so true!!!!!!!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> This is absolutely target on. Men gripe about lack of sex but ladies need more than just wham-bam. They have to have an emotional connection, they have to know they are loved and wanted by their husbands. If they feel unwanted for everything but sex they feel used and unloved.


And they have to feel SAFE. Many men interact with women the same way they do their friends, but many women perceive this (bantering, having to win a discussion, etc.) as an attack and begin to feel unsafe - and thus unloved. 

I often relate men to dogs and women to cats. BIG generalization here, but...Men are upfront, in your face, having fun. Women are more reserved, watching for signs of danger, and easy to frighten and pull away. They usually don't fight back - they just stop participating. And the man takes it for lack of caring.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Interesting that your quote is from the man's perspective. Maybe he does think the marriage is perfect. I'm thinking she doesn't. Deep down something is missing in how she feels about her man.
> 
> It may be that love and bonding and trust have broken to the point that, while you can be friends and raise kids together, the pilot light has gone out. Once it does, once the line has been crossed, I don't know if there's a way to reignite it.


I was one of those women. I haven't been in love with my H for at least 15 years, due to his Love Busters. But after 2 MCs and a LOT of work on my part, I finally learned to start speaking up and being honest. And letting him see just how close to leaving I've been. I've told him ad nauseum before, but this time I've been open, without fear of repercussion (meaning REALLY ready to walk), and finally...he got it. He helps around the house, he doesn't leave trash around for me to pick up, he helps fix things, he no longer barks at us (at least rarely)...he's being mindful. 

And for the first time in a LONG time, I'm considering NOT leaving. Just like Cobalt, he's a good person. He just wasn't handling dealing with ME very well. But he's earnest, and he's learning. And that alone melts my heart a little.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"And they have to feel SAFE. Many men interact with women the same way they do their friends, but many women perceive this (bantering, having to win a discussion, etc.) as an attack and begin to feel unsafe - and thus unloved."

Yep. Women do not want to make love with someone who treats them like a guy or like their brother would. Brothers are great but most women won't put up with the same nonsense from their husbands.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Speaking from my own experience only, although I dare say many women on this site find themselves here too, I can safely say that I've been trying for years now. I tried communicating, posting here, reading books, talking to friends. My H did none of those things, even as he said clearly that he doesn't want us to divorce and wants our marriage to work. But years go by without him really doing anything differently, so his words didn't match his actions.
> 
> He is finally, at the 11th hour (as I was leaving to go sign a lease on an apartment so I could move out), he opened up to me. He admitted that many of the things I've been saying for years he now believes (after reading the 5 love languages) and that he is sorry he didn't listen to me, accused me of always wanting to be right instead of to save our marriage, etc.


Well you hit on something. Actions speak louder than words and people often change at the 11th hour. So the content emotionally withdrawn husband and the content chastity belt wife are peas in a pod. The husband ready to leave over no sex and the wife ready to leave over no emotional connection are also peas in a pod. In other words, the gender divide distracts us from the real problem which is people only listen and take their spouse seriously when they start taking actions rather than just voicing frustration. IMO anyway.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> I was one of those women. I haven't been in love with my H for at least 15 years, due to his Love Busters. But after 2 MCs and a LOT of work on my part, I finally learned to start speaking up and being honest. And letting him see just how close to leaving I've been. I've told him ad nauseum before, but this time I've been open, without fear of repercussion (meaning REALLY ready to walk), and finally...he got it. He helps around the house, he doesn't leave trash around for me to pick up, he helps fix things, he no longer barks at us (at least rarely)...he's being mindful.
> 
> And for the first time in a LONG time, I'm considering NOT leaving. *Just like Cobalt, he's a good person*. He just wasn't handling dealing with ME very well. But he's earnest, and he's learning. And that alone melts my heart a little.


You're off ignore







thank you!


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Cobalt, has your wife talked with her physician about the low desire? Has she stated she has resentments? Has she ever questioned your having OSFs? There is something causing this lack of desire & I haven't seen a post that alludes to the cause.



Good question. Yes she has. Her physician said she is a Type A personality that needs to get things done: her work, kids, dogs, etc but puts our intimacy on the back burner. She said it's very common. My wife agreed but she says that she just doesn't have that strong of a libido.

She is on Prozac and has tapered down to a lesser dose to see if that will help with the sexual side effects of that drug.

Before anyone says anything: yes...I help A LOT around the house. In fact, I'm about to go downstairs and greet the kids when they get off the bus and get them started on their homework, take my son to 2 hrs of basketball practice, make dinner for everyone tonight, and get my own works stuff done. I know it's hard to believe but she has no complaints about me helping out and making her life easier.  I ask all the time too.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> A woman who gets embarrassed over a compliment is a woman who isn't used to getting them. Unless, the compliment is vulgar.
> 
> What I am going to suggest may be counter-intuitive but what about implementing the 180? * She doesn't want you to chase her, so let her chase you. * Just don't get your kicks on route 66.


I don't want to play those games with my wife.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

I'll get to some others later. Gotta go..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cobalt said:


> You're off ignore
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You love me! You really love me!

lol


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Cobalt said:


> Before anyone says anything: yes...I help A LOT around the house. In fact, I'm about to go downstairs and greet the kids when they get off the bus and get them started on their homework, take my son to 2 hrs of basketball practice, make dinner for everyone tonight, and get my own works stuff done. I know it's hard to believe but she has no complaints about me helping out and making her life easier.  I ask all the time too.


But it still has to be more than that. There has to be an emotional connection, her feeling loved. Do you know her love language? 

My husband is great at helping around the house, even in the last few weeks, but it doesn't do much for me. I do highly appreciate it(honestly I really do), as I can be overwhelmed otherwise(our wild toddler is a handful and a big tornado), but there has to be more. I have to feel safe and loved, which has not been happening, so I have basically no desire to have sex.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Walk-away wives usually spend a lot of time trying to say what the problem is, they just aren't heard. By the time they stop sex they've also stopped talking and trying so he doesn't remember the complaining from before he just notices the sex and intimacy stopped.



Grown women should be capable and willing to express themselves in near real time. Maybe it's an unrealistic expectation I suppose...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

john117 said:


> Grown women should be capable and willing to express themselves in near real time. Maybe it's an unrealistic expectation I suppose...


A lot of them do and still aren't really heard, or they are told their complaints aren't valid enough or that it's not the real reason for being upset.  

Others may not, lots of reasons there too
They feel like it doesn't matter because they just want to detach and leave as soon as they can
They don't trust him anymore with her feelings because he spent so long ignoring them
They feel like 'oh _now _you want to help around the house (or whatever said complaint was) when you think it will get you sex again but you weren't willing to do it for me before?!'
They know from experience that speaking about the things that hurt them just turns into a fight and a fact debate that gets nowhere so they don't bother.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

john117 said:


> Grown women should be capable and willing to express themselves in near real time. Maybe it's an unrealistic expectation I suppose...


And yet walkaway wives is the second-most written about phenomenon in marriages (after infidelity) precisely BECAUSE the women continue to say what they're unhappy about (until they give up and shut up) and the men continue to ignore them.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cobalt said:


> Before anyone says anything: yes...I help A LOT around the house. In fact, I'm about to go downstairs and greet the kids when they get off the bus and get them started on their homework, take my son to 2 hrs of basketball practice, make dinner for everyone tonight, and get my own works stuff done. I know it's hard to believe but she has no complaints about me helping out and making her life easier.  I ask all the time too.


Maybe that's not how she receives love? Maybe she's content doing the housework and wish you'd buy flowers instead. Or have meaningful safe conversations. Or not interrupt her. Or buy her a weedeater (snuck that one in there; I asked for 5 years for a new weedeater and got perfume and jewelry instead). 

Point is, you have no CLUE what makes her feel loved and not LB'd because you're not her. You could be killing yourself on housework and she doesn't even notice it because it's not what makes her tick.

That's why the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires are so vital for marriages. To REALLY get the REAL answer from your spouse one what would make you happy (and horny) in your marriage.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

Anonymous07 said:


> But it still has to be more than that. There has to be an emotional connection, her feeling loved. Do you know her love language?
> 
> My husband is great at helping around the house, even in the last few weeks, but it doesn't do much for me. I do highly appreciate it(honestly I really do), as I can be overwhelmed otherwise(our wild toddler is a handful and a big tornado), but there has to be more. I have to feel safe and loved, which has not been happening, so I have basically no desire to have sex.


She doesn't like all that "lovey-dovey" talk. I would love to be able to express myself like that to her but she doesn't want it. She says it's not me, it's her and has assured me that there's no one else. I told her if there was, we could end this amicably but she says she loves me and wants to be together....just without the sex part.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> Maybe that's not how she receives love? Maybe she's content doing the housework and wish you'd buy flowers instead. Or have meaningful safe conversations. Or not interrupt her. Or buy her a weedeater (snuck that one in there; I asked for 5 years for a new weedeater and got perfume and jewelry instead).
> 
> Point is, you have no CLUE what makes her feel loved and not LB'd because you're not her. You could be killing yourself on housework and she doesn't even notice it because it's not what makes her tick.
> 
> That's why the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires are so vital for marriages. To REALLY get the REAL answer from your spouse one what would make you happy (and horny) in your marriage.


She doesn't want to do questionnaires.

I don't interrupt her. I'd be ecstatic if she opened up to me.

I know you desperately want to find me at fault here but when you do write something that is actually happening, I'll let you know.

You're close to going back on ignore.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Where did I say you were at fault? Those were just suggestions I threw up in the air because they are common complaints of many women who come here. Where'd that chip come from, anyway?

I said that you MAY not know how to read your wife, which is the exact same thing I would say about 75% of all OTHER men in the world. We don't come with instruction booklets. 

And you could fill out the questionnaires FOR her, if you wanted to. You should know her well enough. They guide you through it, like writing down stuff your wife has said throughout the marriage, to help you refine your knowledge of what she's really thinking. 

And I'm gonna say it again. Women stop wanting sex because they stop admiring their man, in a primeval kind of way. Maybe you do too MUCH help around the house, and you've relegated yourself to 'busboy' status because of it. MMSLP describes this in detail. I know you think you know too much to have to read, but you'd be surprised at what you don't know. Women want sex when they see a sexy man in front of them, when they aren't sure they're gonna get to keep him, when he looks attractive to other women, when the man steps in and leads, when she's left wondering how to please him. You can get all that in depth in MMSLP.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cobalt said:


> She doesn't like all that "lovey-dovey" talk. I would love to be able to express myself like that to her but she doesn't want it. She says it's not me, it's her and has assured me that there's no one else. I told her if there was, we could end this amicably but *she says she loves me and wants to be together....just without the sex part*.


She is telling you exactly what she wants. The status quo. What are you going to do with that information given that she does not want to consider what you want?


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> Where did I say you were at fault? Those were just suggestions I threw up in the air because they are common complaints of many women who come here. Where'd that chip come from, anyway?
> 
> I said that you MAY not know how to read your wife, which is the exact same thing I would say about 75% of all OTHER men in the world. We don't come with instruction booklets.
> 
> ...


ugh......ok you win  Where do I find this MSRP or whatever it's called.



NobodySpecial said:


> She is telling you exactly what she wants. The status quo. What are you going to do with that information given that she does not want to consider what you want?


Already answered that about 10 times. sorry


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cobalt said:


> ugh......ok you win  Where do I find this MSRP or whatever it's called.
> 
> 
> 
> Already answered that about 10 times. sorry


It was sorta rhetorical.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

If she suspects anything going on, you being on your e-mail too much or feels like she can't trust you then that would be a place where you could work on. I know you probably think your talking to the OW was sneaky and she didn't know anything but a lot of times people will just have a feeling that something is not right and feel they can't trust.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

turnera said:


> Maybe that's not how she receives love? Maybe she's content doing the housework and wish you'd buy flowers instead. Or have meaningful safe conversations. Or not interrupt her. Or buy her a weedeater (snuck that one in there; I asked for 5 years for a new weedeater and got perfume and jewelry instead).


What if you'd gotten the weedeater... AND perfume and jewelry?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

GusPolinski said:


> What if you'd gotten the weedeater... AND perfume and jewelry?


I would have ignored and perfume and jewelry, since I have no interest in them, and thanked him a LOT for the weedeater (which I did).


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> What if you'd gotten the weedeater... AND perfume and jewelry?


You need to fill out the LB questionnaire, you Neanderthal.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books


thanks. 



I hope there's pictures in it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Every house we've had has fallen apart. DH prefers to sit on the couch or in bed and watch tv all day. He wants me to sit right beside him. He likes fancy clothes, nice cologne, jewelry. Yes, he's metro. I want a clean orderly house that I'm not ashamed to let people into (like I was when my childhood home fell apart after my dad left). 

Every year, for decades, he'd buy me perfume and clothes and jewelry and I'd buy him tools (his excuse for not taking care of the house was that he didn't have any decent tools). None of it got used. 

Then I read HNHN and got educated in what marriages are supposed to look like. I gave up on getting a decent house (fwiw, ours is 4700 sq ft on the richest street in the very nice neighborhood, yet I'm ashamed to invite anyone over) and started buying him new clothes and cologne and jewelry. He lapped it up. But didn't reciprocate.

About 4 years ago, DD24, who knew what was going on, told him he'd better start paying attention to me when I said I wanted a new tool or bookcase or weedeater. She basically strong-armed him into getting me what I asked for instead of what he wanted to get. Since then, I've finally gotten the weedeater, a new BBQ grill, and a new vacuum this year (he refused to replace the 20+ year old Panasonic one because he said nothing else was as good as it was - even though I had to tape it together with duct tape, it was missing a wheel, and it made the house stink). 

Of course, he also got me a brand new camera I didn't ask for, and will never use and about 20 accessories to go with it, because it's what HE wanted. 

But I am FINALLY starting to be able to look at him without thinking of nothing else but leaving him.

Because after 35 years, he's finally LISTENING to me.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Cobalt said:


> You need to fill out the LB questionnaire, you Neanderthal.


Sad Gus is sad.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> Every house we've had has fallen apart. DH prefers to sit on the couch or in bed and watch tv all day. He wants me to sit right beside him. He likes fancy clothes, nice cologne, jewelry. Yes, he's metro. I want a clean orderly house that I'm not ashamed to let people into (like I was when my childhood home fell apart after my dad left).
> 
> Every year, for decades, he'd buy me perfume and clothes and jewelry and I'd buy him tools (his excuse for not taking care of the house was that he didn't have any decent tools). None of it got used.
> 
> ...


okay


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

turnera said:


> Where did I say you were at fault? Those were just suggestions I threw up in the air because they are common complaints of many women who come here. Where'd that chip come from, anyway?


Turnera, you have given some sound advice, but throughout this thread your tone comes off as someone who is convinced that the OP is at fault and you are trying to find anything possible to pin on him. Maybe that's not your intention, but that's the vibe I get.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

turnera said:


> And yet walkaway wives is the second-most written about phenomenon in marriages (after infidelity) precisely BECAUSE the women continue to say what they're unhappy about (until they give up and shut up) and the men continue to ignore them.



There are ways to express oneself and be heard. 

There are ways to communicate in succinct ways without fluff.

There are ways to communicate without resorting to emotional terrorism.

But again, I may be too optimistic in expecting all this. All I read in TAM is about eternal passion, soul mates, etcetera and yet those soul mates don't comprehend each other a few years later? 

Pragmatism and honest communication is what's needed, not melting like butter when Mr. Right appears. Could it be that expectations are to blame?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

turnera said:


> I said that you MAY not know how to read your wife, which is the exact same thing I would say about 75% of all OTHER men in the world. We don't come with instruction booklets. .



Reading people is very easy. The hard part is taking the right action.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm trying to get him to accept the fact that he, too, can be looking at his side of the street. He's the one saying he has a sexless marriage. I've tried repeatedly to get him to understand that psychologically speaking, women typically stop having sex with their husbands because of SOMETHING going on in the marriage. Which is usually something the OTHER person is doing. 

So if he's here saying he'd rather not have a sexless marriage, I'm saying so what are you doing to look at YOUR ACTIONS to see how those actions (verbal, physical, intimated) tie in to your wife's feelings about you and about the marriage.

He's the one who keeps trying to make jokes, deflect, or blame the messenger. As I've said, no skin off our nose if he listens or not, but we give advice because we know what works. And what works first and foremost is humility and a DEEP level of introspection into one's own side of the street. When I first came to forums, I was convinced my H was abusive, because I was so miserable. But when I finally learned more about happy marriages, and looked at my side, I saw that at least half of our problems were because of me. And I've worked hard to fix that stuff in me. And it's working.

When I call him out for actions he takes, well, that's calling him out for actions he takes (or doesn't). Ok, then, he IS at fault, for at least half of the state of his marriage!

I'm sorry if he doesn't like hearing that, I'm sorry if it offends his sense of self, but if he wants what he seems to have come here for, fixing his sexless marriage, at some point he needs to stop defending and deflecting, and take a look at himself.

He's finally doing some of the things people have been suggesting to him since he got here. Good. I hope he sees a difference.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

john117 said:


> Reading people is very easy. The hard part is taking the right action.


And considering that probably 2/3 of us come from SOME sort of dysfunction in our childhood, it's a safe bet that one, or both, of us in a marriage will have trouble taking the right actions.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Who cares about about fault. He can only change his actions in the hopes of a different reaction.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I have proposed at least half a dozen things he can be doing differently and he has responded with quips about why he doesn't need them, why they won't work, why I'm wrong...it's his choice, but at least now he's agreeing to at least read a book. Good enough for me.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

turnera said:


> I have proposed at least half a dozen things he can be doing differently and he has responded with quips about why he doesn't need them, why they won't work, why I'm wrong...it's his choice, but at least now he's agreeing to at least read a book. Good enough for me.


Welcome to the internet! Imma gonna keep doing the same stuff then whine when I get the same reaction.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

*shrug*

He's the one complaining.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> I'm trying to get him to accept the fact that he, too, can be looking at his side of the street. He's the one saying he has a sexless marriage. I've tried repeatedly to get him to understand that psychologically speaking, women typically stop having sex with their husbands because of SOMETHING going on in the marriage. Which is usually something the OTHER person is doing.
> 
> So if he's here saying he'd rather not have a sexless marriage, I'm saying so what are you doing to look at YOUR ACTIONS to see how those actions (verbal, physical, intimated) tie in to your wife's feelings about you and about the marriage.
> 
> ...


:rofl: omg.......what hubris


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> I have proposed at least half a dozen things he can be doing differently and he has responded with quips about why he doesn't need them, why they won't work, why I'm wrong...it's his choice, but at least now he's agreeing to at least read a book. Good enough for me.


I _might_ read it  nothing is set in stone.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> *shrug*
> 
> He's the one complaining.


 :lol: you're the one who keeps coming back to my threads.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> I might read it nothing is set in stone.


Suit yourself. It's _your _sexless marriage.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cobalt said:


> :lol: you're the one who keeps coming back to my threads.


Yep. Because SOMEbody is reading this thread and learning from it.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> Suit yourself. It's your sexless marriage.


I'll try and forge on without your expertise


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> Yep. Because SOMEbody is reading this thread and learning from it.


This is starting to feel like an EA  we need to stop


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T,

There's a quote that comes to mind in this type of thread.

From 'White men can't jump': You'd rather look good and lose, than look bad and win






turnera said:


> Yep. Because SOMEbody is reading this thread and learning from it.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

john117 said:


> There are ways to express oneself and be heard.
> 
> There are ways to communicate in succinct ways without fluff.
> 
> ...


All of these do not matter if nobody is listening.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> All of these do not matter if nobody is listening.



True, but guy-talk aka straight to the bone dude here's the problem is a lot easier to hear than girl-talk aka let's stop doing this and that and if he's smart he'll figure it out...


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Cobalt, you enjoy using sarcasm and irony a lot here, and that can be fun. Is there a chance that you are using it (or used to) in your marriage, and it is getting between two of you? Sarcasm is fun at the parties, with friends, on the forum, but it can kill communication in the relationship if overused.

again, I a, mot saying you are doing it, just brainstorming. You seem to be a little touchy whenever someone tries to suggest that there might be reason for her lack of sex ( and these reasons can be very subjective)


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> Cobalt, you enjoy using sarcasm and irony a lot here, and that can be fun. Is there a chance that you are using it (or used to) in your marriage, and it is getting between two of you? Sarcasm is fun at the parties, with friends, on the forum, but it can kill communication in the relationship if overused.
> 
> again, I a, mot saying you are doing it, just brainstorming. You seem to be a little touchy whenever someone tries to suggest that there might be reason for her lack of sex ( and these reasons can be very subjective)


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

john117 said:


> True, but guy-talk aka straight to the bone dude here's the problem is a lot easier to hear than girl-talk aka let's stop doing this and that and if he's smart he'll figure it out...


I guess you should marry a guy next time! Lol

On a more serious note - not all guys are straight talk, many simply avoid talk at all, or yell, or use sarcasm, etc. and not all the women are washy washy, many of us are straight talk and still is not clear enough.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> Cobalt, you enjoy using sarcasm and irony a lot here, and that can be fun. Is there a chance that you are using it (or used to) in your marriage, and it is getting between two of you? Sarcasm is fun at the parties, with friends, on the forum, but it can kill communication in the relationship if overused.
> 
> again, I a, mot saying you are doing it, just brainstorming. You seem to be a little touchy whenever someone tries to suggest that there might be reason for her lack of sex ( and these reasons can be very subjective)


We use a lot of sarcasm and goofing on people on stupid reality shows....but not when we are discussing our marriage, the kids, money, etc

I see the_ other_ people as being touchy/serious and I'm trying to inject some humor. When I see some advice that doesn't look like someone trying to project their own bad experiences with their husband on to me, I'll listen. And I think it's funny when some people get indignant with me.  see it how you like though....it's all words on the computer screen at the end of the day.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

It is not necessary projection. Look at this as brainstorming, we are tossing ideas, so you can take one after another , chew over them and eliminate them, until you either find the right one or realize it is really not you, it's her. So far you present yourself as perfect husband. And maybe you are, maybe you are not, we do not know that part.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> It is not necessary projection. Look at this as brainstorming, we are tossing ideas, so you can take one after another , chew over them and eliminate them, until you either find the right one or realize it is really not you, it's her. *So far you present yourself as perfect husband.* And maybe you are, maybe you are not, we do not know that part.


That's pretty much what I do: I like the posts that are helpful and put the other people on ignore  

j/k

I admitted having a OSF :scratchhead: I know I'm not perfect.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

WandaJ said:


> Cobalt, you enjoy using sarcasm and irony a lot here, and that can be fun. Is there a chance that you are using it (or used to) in your marriage, and it is getting between two of you? Sarcasm is fun at the parties, with friends, on the forum, but it can kill communication in the relationship if overused.
> 
> again, I am not saying you are doing it, just brainstorming. You seem to be a little touchy whenever someone tries to suggest that there might be reason for her lack of sex ( and these reasons can be very subjective)


My point, said much more eloquently and less antagonistically. 

Thanks, Wanda.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

*"Of course, he also got me a brand new camera I didn't ask for, and will never use and about 20 accessories to go with it, because it's what HE wanted."*

Sorry to threadjack but:

Turnera, you're dropping the ball here. Your house is falling down around your ears and you're ashamed of it. Buy your own damn birthday present as in getting some repair done and then thank your husband for the gift.

Thought you said your husband is a minister? So why does he want to look & smell like some dandy?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Cobalt said:


> That's pretty much what I do: I like the posts that are helpful and put the other people on ignore
> 
> j/k
> 
> I admitted having a OSF :scratchhead: I know I'm not perfect.


The OSF is a result of miserable marriage. we are trying to figure out what made it miserable - was it simply your wife's LD nature that screw everything up, or was there more to it. But that's for you to figure out.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Blondilocks said:


> *"Of course, he also got me a brand new camera I didn't ask for, and will never use and about 20 accessories to go with it, because it's what HE wanted."*
> 
> Sorry to threadjack but:
> 
> ...


He's not a minister. He's a salesman.

I recently took over paying the bills and have started a budget and am using an envelope system to save up money to pay for house repairs. Will not charge anything else, and our income barely pays our bills (his jobs have gotten worse and worse over the past 10 years), so it's $5 here and $5 there until I can afford it. My goal this year is to get us as much out of debt as I can. I've set up a bookoo.com account and am starting to sell stuff toward that end. I'm cutting up his new credit cards as they come in. I'm refusing to spend money. I'll get there.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> He's not a minister. He's a salesman.


Maybe he's a minister and a salesman, like Elmer Gantry


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

Your avatar,... Cobalt.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

SweetAndSour said:


> Your avatar,... Cobalt.


I meant, is it you in your avatar, cobalt. If it was you I wondered about your expression.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

SweetAndSour said:


> I meant, is it you in your avatar, cobalt. If it was you I wondered about your expression.


haha,,,no. That's Jason Statham. Didn't want to put my pic up so I chose one that people say I look like


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