# after d-day stuff..



## elph

a short version of my story..
been together since HS. dated on/off for 10 years..married in 2004. 1 3yr old boy.
noticed her texts messages slowly rise since mid last year, but thought nothing of it till it hit the 4000 mark..in jan.11. went back to review and noticed a high percentage to one of her coworkers... he was in unhappy marriage and was on verge of geting divorce (which he filed for in dec.10). found evidence of sext pics dating to late sept. (timestamped with pic message sent 1 min after)
. late jan i confront about the txts (not the pic i found that out later) she denies, just friends, no attraction etc.
decide to use software for blackberry to log texts (which shesbeen deleting) got 4 days worth of stuff...

finds out they have been together but for unknown amount of time..i sit on this info trying to gather more, hoping shell wake up and leave him...start doing reserch on affairs and how to handle them properly...

anyway. decided i want to save the marriage. so i confront her with my evidence on sunday...at first she denies, then says its only a EA. then i bring in other text that establish a PA (in that time she says its not cheating because no physical stuff, its not a big deal, and they broke it off weeks ago...all untrue, also said only lasted 2 1/2 months)

she does the phone call to let him know i know about affair...she cant transfer or anything i know hes not willing because hes a dept. head. but she made the decision to break it of (reluctantly) and so far stay for her family( not really me, but son..has no where to go and she knows i wont let her take him)

shes showing signs of transperancy, letting me see all texts, informing me of stuff, though shes undecided if she wants to stay in marriage. weve been going through therapy and have session next tues.

but heres my big problem and the issue i have right now.

Watching her get over the heartbreak of losing the other relationship/friendship. its killing me because shes so not engaged with me besides small talk. shes angry and says she hates me...but shes trying...she says shes lost and depressed. i dont know if they talk at work (the work together 3 days). i sent him a stern warning that i know about them and he should move on or ill go to his exwife who works for same company as well as his mom(hes a big mamas boy)

any advice how to get through this phase because i really didnt expect it to be so hard, even with a month of resaerch and prep...


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## HurtinginTN

You won't be able to get rid of the intense pain. If you are able to find a magic pill, please let me know. I'll trade my house for it.

Spend time with your child. Those little smiles and laughs are the best medicine in the world.

Work out hard. The physical pain of the soreness helps take your mind off of the emotional pain somewhat.

Get selfish. Meaning do some things you enjoy to do. 

Music also helps somewhat.

I'm sorry you are here. You are not alone. It's a rough ride.


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## Bigwayneo

Do some more research. If she wants to stay with you she needs to quit her job. Break ALL contact with the OM. that is the only way you can get things moving forward. I/myself passed up a job because the OM would work at the business next to me. But if she really wants to work things out... No contact has to be done.


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## jnj express

Who you need to tell or threaten him with,is the HR dept, of his company, or the company CEO---the last thing that company wants to face is the bad publicity/possible sexual harrasment lawsuit caused by one of its dept heads----he has a whole lot to lose here

But in all reality, there must be NC---so basically is she is still seeing him everyday, you have a problem---so either she leaves the job, or he gets transferred-----you can put a lot of pressure on whoever you want, cuz he has wrecked your family

They will come back at you to some extent, that your wife willingly participated, and you can counter she was seduced, and coerced---you are in a strong position---but you need to go after them YESTERDAY

As to your wife---you can' force her to do anything--if she is staying for the kid only, and hates you---you are gonna live a miserable life---so you need to start, an extremely strong 180, and see where all of this leads in time

But the one thing you must do is get the NC in place


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## elph

Well in this economic climate she's not going to leave her job. Nor do I wnt her to. She's been with the company 14 years, opened her store and is well loved. 

I actually found out just a bit ago from her mom ( who Im blessed to have as an in-law) told me he's completely backed off and maybe putting in for transfer. My wife is disappointed that I stood up to him. Even more so shes angry because he didnt " fight" for her. 

She hates me, but she said alot of things in anger. She's always been a dirty fighter and I should've clarified that. but she's upholding her part with the transparency thing. I do appreciate all the advice but how does one deal with watching them go through the heartbreak they deal with while having the willpower to go on?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express

That's the problem isn't it---she hates you---your last post nailed it---he wouldn't fight for her---and she wanted him to, as to you, you trampled on her man--You made her lover go away----you know where you stand---you the loving H., your the bad guy

Hopefully her actions will speak louder than her words, and maybe out of the ashes, somewhere down the line---you will have a mge.

Can you go thru life knowing she allowed another to have her, can you go thru life knowing she preferred him to you---how do you intend to reconcile yourself, to what she has done to you

Also know this, and it is important to your future---if you do not handle this very strongly, and I do mean strongly, so that she percieves no weakness in you---for if she percieves weakness in you, she will cheat again, knowing she can, and you will do nothing, cuz you basically slid this A. under the rug for her---she has to be accountable---she obviously is staying for the kid as she has stated, but if she truly hates you, and continues to do so---your kid is way better off, with a D., and split homes----you have a lot to think about, as to how you wanna play this out


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## elph

jnj express said:


> That's the problem isn't it---she hates you---your last post nailed it---he wouldn't fight for her---and she wanted him to, as to you, you trampled on her man--You made her lover go away----you know where you stand---you the loving H., your the bad guy
> 
> Hopefully her actions will speak louder than her words, and maybe out of the ashes, somewhere down the line---you will have a mge.
> 
> Can you go thru life knowing she allowed another to have her, can you go thru life knowing she preferred him to you---how do you intend to reconcile yourself, to what she has done to you
> 
> Also know this, and it is important to your future---if you do not handle this very strongly, and I do mean strongly, so that she percieves no weakness in you---for if she percieves weakness in you, she will cheat again, knowing she can, and you will do nothing, cuz you basically slid this A. under the rug for her---she has to be accountable---she obviously is staying for the kid as she has stated, but if she truly hates you, and continues to do so---your kid is way better off, with a D., and split homes----you have a lot to think about, as to how you wanna play this out


you know, im going through personal therapy to, and my therapist is set on rebuilding my confidence...and she sbeen worth every penny.shes got me beliving in the best parts of my self, most importantly my will power to get through this...the tenacity ive shown to fight for my wife and family...
im definitely not letting her off the hook. i want her to heal from her breakup, then we can turn our attention to not only what she did wrong, but how its affected me and our son...but i know shes slowing coming out of the fog, and i want her mind to be clear when we get to the next step..

i know she doesnt really hate me...it was one of those anger things, we have a vacation planned for next week where were leaving town for a few days..and shes leaving her cell phone at home just as a sign of good faith, as well shes been talking aobut my birthday that comes up shortly after....its just watching this part of the process....

we broke up for a bit before we came back to each other to get married...and she dated this one *******...i mean he was a total ****..even abused her...but in the begining of thier relationship it was totally rosey...she told me all about after we got back together...

that stuff wasnt easy but i got over it..i figure itll be similar just a bit on the harder side


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## LuvMyH

elph,

You seem to have a good, healthy attitude about the situation. Keep in mind that the relationship she's mourning is a fantasy. To say that she preferred him to you would be wrong. She doesn't know the reality of living with him and loving him after the honeymoon phase. 

From what you've posted, it seems you're on the right track. Just keep it up. You can't control your wife's emotions, only yours. Be her friend and work on making improvements in your marriage. If things don't work out, you'll know you did what you could. 


I'm glad you're going on vacation. When my husband and I went away together for the first time after D-day, it was a great escape. I hope things work out for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express

Hey E---I hope it all works out, you want it badly---but you musn't do her heavy lifting---you can't want her part of the R---she has to be selfless, not selfish, which she has been---- No matter what you want, you can't live in a loveless marriage---watch her actions they will tell where all of this is going----be strong


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## the guy

LUvnyH makes alot of sense, see she just lost a fantasy, the excitement and all the trills are gone. Granted if time would have allaowed the reality of what a jerk this guy was would have set in and there would have been a good chance that you would have never known. She would have gone back to you knowing what a great man she had married and thing would have been great.

Well it didn't go down that way and you cut her fun right when it was just getting started. She is addicted and with time she will come down. Right now be firm but fair. until the drug of the OM is completelt eliminated she will struggle. I have the same probloem with booze. If I could just stay away from it I'd get over it.

Back to your wife, she not only lost her best friend but she has to deal with what a jerk he really was and that she even fall for him.

So be your wifes best friend and find out what caused her to stray, what was missing in your marraige and fix it. Make the changes that are needed in rebuilding the marraige. Once you both make the changes to have a healthier marriage she will enjoy them and hopefully stay in it.

Give hope that things will change for the better and the need for her step out will be eliminated.


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## elph

This weeks been tough. I've been going the 180 route. Like I said we have a therapist appt this tues. It's actually our third. So we started seeing her before I came out and knew what was going on. My wife has told me everthing I did wrong regarding our marriage. How I was to critical and lecturing. How I seemingly neglected herb all kinds of thinks if actively tried to change. But she's still in the fog. We had a long all oven the place conversation. About how it started and some details. Some things dint add up. And her ficus is on not losing her job or me going to her employer. She also says she lost. Not in love with me but loves me. Doesn't know what will happen. I asked her if the OM makes her happy and she said yes , she couldn't explain Joe and just said he she has these intense feelings. She hasn't committed to him bur not to me either so it's been difficult. she says there's hope but doesn know. I k ow he OW is scared of me going to bosses. But it hasn't quite kept him at bay. But I think I can sweat it out. Thanks for the advice ppl
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express

You need to tell her---You know you cannot stop her from cheating---and you have no intention of trying---but you also tell her you will not SHARE her---so she needs to make some kind of decision NOW

She has no reality with her lover---they do nothing but whisper sweet nothings, and play with each other----she has no emergencies with him, no sweating over bills to pay with him, no hauling kids around with him, no goint to teacher conferences with him, no worrying about plumbing with him----it is all lovey--dovey----but guess what if she ends up with him the grass will not be greener, it will be a dirty shade of brown---97% of A. related hook-ups FAIL

She then becomes a cheating, divorced, single mother who will now have to work all the time, take care of kids when she comes home tired from work, and she will be to tired to socialize, ---plus no solid guy is gonna take her on---she will have a series of ONS's not knowing who she is waking up next to---that is what she is looking at---

She is not looking at a very nice lifestyle if she goes off with her lover---but that will be her problem--

-you do what you must do, and what is best for you


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## Tourchwood

how can you be with a person that does not want you? or not sure if she want to be with you?


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## ahhhmaaaan!

I totally agree with Tourchwood-WHY?


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## elph

Tourchwood said:


> how can you be with a person that does not want you? or not sure if she want to be with you?


Well as most thugs it's alittle complicated. She keeps telling me she doesn't deserve me. And this week is vacation which means she will have no physical contact with him. She's really hoping to use this week to heal and get over it. And she's very well aware that it's a fantasy, and she has these intense feelings to get over. While she's been doing that I've been keeping up with my 180. Which I think is why she's in the don't deserve you mode. We had a long talk about some of this stuff. And she hasn't shut the door on our marriage, but she can focus on it at the same time along with her feelings. Guilt may finally be setting in. As well she's so afraid of damaging our son. Every time he can when he sees us hig or pass each he hugs too or gets us to hold hands. That's hitting her hard and she may be starting to realize the effect it's having. 
While my wife is saying it just happened and he affairs only been since Jan. ( which is questionable). I know as a guy that he's been setting this up. Playing her protector at work. And even though she's telling me he's not better than me on a whole bunch of levels, she's still emotionally with him. And let's not get into the sex thing because that's just been racking my brain. 

At the end of the day, I k ow my wifes character and soul. And I know how strong I am. And that I have the capacity to trust and forgiven the future. But I also know we need to go through all the steps to do it. And the first step is her withdrawal and rehab. If she gets through that. We should be gravy. But well see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

Just a perspective here, vacations are awsome. 4weeks after d-day we spent 5hours in the car driving to Vegas. there was so much that needed to be said that the radio wasn't on once. 

That was some healing sh*t that went in that car for 5 hours, I remember talking about the good times and we finished up on the future as we rolled throught the desert... it was great.

So point is take the time for a long @ss drive together and stay away from the A stuff at first, get her comfortable. Once we got to the room we talked alot about the details and just got through the pain again, but it was nice to order room serves and hang out in a hotel room (naked) for 48 hours. Something about hanging out naked in a suite just makes you open up I guess.

The two rules we had were no cell phone and no anger. We really reconnected in all the right ways. 

The thing is when your in the middle of the desert there is something that just puts everthing back together, IDK it was wierd.

My wife's only concern was when I pulled of the highway to piss, she asked me if this was the spot I was going to bury her LOL.

Man I highly recommend a long drive to a nice resort with room serves. Stay away from the cell phone and lap tops and watch dirty movies and eat and have sex and talk ..it did us a world of good.


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## Tourchwood

ELF
what the Heck, you are talking about rehab like she is a drug addict or some snif snif abuse, and mixing some alcohol to her crystal myth.

the Woman Cheated, she went naked in front a guy and did him fully know the consequences to her action. has nothing to do with rehab or emotions or they way person grown up.
if this happened in Iran or Pakistan she will stoned to death no time for being remorse or rehab.
its your life, and you choose. anything can be fixed except cheating.


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## the guy

I disagree, when it come to cheating you can fix it. You can make the dicisions that you can control you and in preventing your self from being a doormat and being use by changing your self and moving on. Just like she can fix her self and make the dicision in stop being a sl*t and repairing her thought process. Just like junkies they to can be healed.

I believe behaviors can be modified and it is only up to the individuel to make the change. For most it take professionals to help them but with great self control one can leave there cheating spouse to be happy and vise verseve, a cheating spouse can stop slepping around to be happy. 

I just really believe that if one has a unhealthy behavior they can fix it, but they have to want to first and for most. 

For DS I can see how the fog can prevent them from saving a marriage and follow a path of family destruction. But if they wanted to they can change and save the family/marriage.

In life the only things that can't be fixed are death and taxes.


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## seeking sanity

One of the many hard things in all of this is that you need to let her sort through her grief over the loss of that relationship before she'll be able to come back to you.

It really sucks.

This link may help her, if she's willing to read it:

SurvivingInfidelity.com - Support for those affected by Infidelity


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## elph

seeking sanity said:


> One of the many hard things in all of this is that you need to let her sort through her grief over the loss of that relationship before she'll be able to come back to you.
> 
> It really sucks.
> 
> This link may help her, if she's willing to read it:
> 
> SurvivingInfidelity.com - Support for those affected by Infidelity


I don't think shell read it but its a good resource. 

As to the previous poster. I read some thing by pit in stomach that correlated it to an addiction in alot of ways. It made sense. My wife has these feelings for another man. As she continues to talk about it, it went from love to now an infatuation. She is mouring the abrupt ending of that relationship. That's the tough part. She loves me. There is no doubt. And since she works with him it makes it much harder. She's not a cruel person and doesn't want to hurt anybody. And she wants to be comfortable at work and not jeapordize her job. 

Is she trying to maintain some sort of friendship since they were friends before all this? Possibly but she slowly coming to realize that may not be the wisest choice. And while she hasn't committed 100% to saving the marriage, because of the confusing feelings she has, were still going to go to counseling. 

She made an interesting statement to me tonight. 
She said part of her is afraid because she may be missing an opportunity at happiness. She doesn't know if being with him will make her happy. Or if getting together with him could be the biggest mistake of her life and losing me as well. But she also realized it would be easier to get over her feelings for him and that future then it would be her feelings of being with or losing me. 

Take of that what u will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvMyH

I agree with RWB. There really needs to be no contact. Any progress she makes in coming out of the fog will probably be set back when she sees/talks to him. Is there nothing that can be done about the job situation?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express

There can be no contact with the OM----there must be some accountability---and if your wife still wishes to keep feelings for the other man---then she is still A. mode---HE MUST BE GONE---her getting rid of him in her mind is hard---and as long as she sees him at work, he will not be out of sight, out of mind---you cannot even think about starting R. until her is completely GONE---NC, starting YESTERDAY---if you allow it to continue---you are just fooling yourself, and you are in for major problems, not that you don't have them already

It may be an addiction, but its kinda funny in that if the AP does something to turn your spouse off---that A. is ended NOW---so I am not really sure where it all fits, but this addiction can/does end, and in your case it must end NOW


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## elph

The job thing is fail. She's been at her store for 14 years. And he's a department head. Unless he transfers it's a moot point. And she isn't going to leave. She's got way to much invested. 
As for the no contact, it's been difficult. She says she's trying but is resentful. We leave for a few days to Monterey and she's leaving the phone and texting at home. After vacation I may escalate it to say again if it's him. U go, and let that be. We've been talking alot. And she doesn't know what her feelings are. But she's afraid of losing me too. And your right. So long as she stays in contact it draws it out. But at the same time she has to want to save the marriage. I've been supportive, caring and compassionate. And all those things she fell in Love with. But he's a roadblock. I think shell come around and decide to do the things nescasary of her on volition. Well see how the rest of the week goes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The 13th_Floor

elph said:


> The job thing is fail. She's been at her store for 14 years. And he's a department head. Unless he transfers it's a moot point. And she isn't going to leave. She's got way to much invested.
> As for the no contact, it's been difficult. She says she's trying but is resentful. We leave for a few days to Monterey and she's leaving the phone and texting at home. After vacation I may escalate it to say again if it's him. U go, and let that be. We've been talking alot. And she doesn't know what her feelings are. But she's afraid of losing me too. And your right. So long as she stays in contact it draws it out. But at the same time she has to want to save the marriage. I've been supportive, caring and compassionate. And all those things she fell in Love with. But he's a roadblock. I think shell come around and decide to do the things nescasary of her on volition. Well see how the rest of the week goes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Elph,

Her being in the same office with him 3 days a week is like putting heroin in a drug addicts face. There's a HUGE difference in what you think won't happen, and what you HOPE won't happen. Why take the chance? What is more important to you, your wife's job, or your marriage. It's really that simple.


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## oaksthorne

:iagree:


elph said:


> Well as most thugs it's alittle complicated. She keeps telling me she doesn't deserve me. And this week is vacation which means she will have no physical contact with him. She's really hoping to use this week to heal and get over it. And she's very well aware that it's a fantasy, and she has these intense feelings to get over. While she's been doing that I've been keeping up with my 180. Which I think is why she's in the don't deserve you mode. We had a long talk about some of this stuff. And she hasn't shut the door on our marriage, but she can focus on it at the same time along with her feelings. Guilt may finally be setting in. As well she's so afraid of damaging our son. Every time he can when he sees us hig or pass each he hugs too or gets us to hold hands. That's hitting her hard and she may be starting to realize the effect it's having.
> While my wife is saying it just happened and he affairs only been since Jan. ( which is questionable). I know as a guy that he's been setting this up. Playing her protector at work. And even though she's telling me he's not better than me on a whole bunch of levels, she's still emotionally with him. And let's not get into the sex thing because that's just been racking my brain.
> 
> At the end of the day, I k ow my wifes character and soul. And I know how strong I am. And that I have the capacity to trust and forgiven the future. But I also know we need to go through all the steps to do it. And the first step is her withdrawal and rehab. If she gets through that. We should be gravy. But well see.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree:
It has been a year and a half since d-day. It's taken all that time for my H to see his A for what it was, a fantasy. He now sees the OW for what she is too. Really great people don't go after other peoples spouses. She is no longer the poor little girl with a bad marriage, who needs to be rescued. He sees her for what she is, a selfish predator of other peoples happiness. He truly wishes he had never met her and listened to her flattery. He tries every day to make it up to me. If you keep doing just what you are doing, I think you will give your marriage it's best chance to recover. She is a lucky woman, hopefully she will come to appreciate it more fully .


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## elph

oaksthorne said:


> :iagree:
> 
> :iagree::iagree:
> It has been a year and a half since d-day. It's taken all that time for my H to see his A for what it was, a fantasy. He now sees the OW for what she is too. Really great people don't go after other peoples spouses. She is no longer the poor little girl with a bad marriage, who needs to be rescued. He sees her for what she is, a selfish predator of other peoples happiness. He truly wishes he had never met her and listened to her flattery. He tries every day to make it up to me. If you keep doing just what you are doing, I think you will give your marriage it's best chance to recover. She is a lucky woman, hopefully she will come to appreciate it more fully .


And that's he big kicker. She says it just happened. That's the fog talking. She knows it's a fantasy. She has no real future planed with him. Paying bills. If he snores. Being a part time mom. and as much as she says he's a nice guy with a few self esteem problems, I've called him out for what he is and has done. Just because his marriage failed doesn't mean he goes after another mans wife and tries to destroy another family. He has no honor. no respect. And will show that toward her once the honeymoon phase is over. That said I'm not going to allow this to continue in my home either. It's her affair. Not my sons. 
As well Ive seen some of the texts he sends. He's getting desperate and angry. He now says I'm using my son as a way to hold on to her like some sick weapon amd her love for her son is jay another tool. Forget the fact it's my son too and I want only the best. 
He has crossed the line with developing too much of a friend ship. The. He crossd it going after my wife. But implicating my son in anyway is an act of war. 
He's lucky I have honor. That I'm not going to jeopardize time with my son just for his petty crap. Else while I woulda gone all goodfellas on his ass. But the best way to get to him is his job, family, and ultimately work it out with my wife. 

Sorry. Just had to vent a little. **** that dude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tourchwood

kick your wife out, or take your son and leave.


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## The 13th_Floor

elph said:


> And that's he big kicker. She says it just happened. That's the fog talking. She knows it's a fantasy. She has no real future planed with him. Paying bills. If he snores. Being a part time mom. and as much as she says he's a nice guy with a few self esteem problems, I've called him out for what he is and has done. Just because his marriage failed doesn't mean he goes after another mans wife and tries to destroy another family. He has no honor. no respect. And will show that toward her once the honeymoon phase is over. That said I'm not going to allow this to continue in my home either. It's her affair. Not my sons.
> As well Ive seen some of the texts he sends. He's getting desperate and angry. He now says I'm using my son as a way to hold on to her like some sick weapon amd her love for her son is jay another tool. Forget the fact it's my son too and I want only the best.
> He has crossed the line with developing too much of a friend ship. The. He crossd it going after my wife. But implicating my son in anyway is an act of war.
> He's lucky I have honor. That I'm not going to jeopardize time with my son just for his petty crap. Else while I woulda gone all goodfellas on his ass. But the best way to get to him is his job, family, and ultimately work it out with my wife.
> 
> Sorry. Just had to vent a little. **** that dude.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


O M G...

Elph,

Him using your kid to make yourself look bad is an extremely LOW blow. You can NOT take that! Show up at his work and get him FIRED like NOW! Now you seriously have me pissed. This guy is using every tactic he can to break up your marriage and all you're worried about is your wife's job! 

Elph - Meet your son's new step father, the OM. Is that what you want? Unless you stop his bull****, that's what might happen! I'm almost begging you, bro. If you're going to save your marriage, do it the right way. I feel like wacking this guy for you...


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## jnj express

I think you need to put a stop to all of this--cuz now he is threatening to pull your family apart by attacking your relationship with your son

Hopefully you have a copy of that e-mail---send the guy a letter stating the following (do not tell your wife what you are doing) tell this scum--that he has crossed the line, and is interfering in your relationship with your children---tell him he is to go NC with your whole family NOW---if that does not happen you will file a legal action against him for INTENTIONAL INFLICTION OF EMOTIONAL DISTRESS---also get your wife the He*l out of that job---it doesn't matter anymore what she has invested in that job---your relationship with your son is being challenged, and she is the conduit that is allowing it to happen---THIS FREAKIN GUY SHOULD NOT EVEN BE IN YOUR LIFE

IMHO---you should not go to monterey with your wife, nor anywhere else---you need an extremely hard 180, and you need to tell her to wake up, get into the mge, or get the he*l out now---what are you waiting for--are you waiting for her and her scumbag lover to wreck your life BEYOND REPAIR


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## elph

We had a good therapy session last night. And amongst the stuff we talked about the therapist said that if she left me for him, the relationship wouldn't last because it isn't a fresh relationship. There would be too much baggage. And my wife seemingly took that to heart. 

As for the text don't have them save because they were on her phone. And if I communicate with him then shell hear about it two seconds later. But I will communicat w with him again. Then I'll send everything I have to his soon to be ex wife. His mom ( mommas boy) and finally his job, although since his future ex works for the same company I think shell take care of it for me. 

This is tough because if I affect her job she's pretty much said it's over. That's something I want to avoid as well as it's hard enough to get a job now. And unfortunately she's also mentioned suicide several times over the past week and i don't want to push her over. She's as much said her son is the reason that's keeping her from. 

She's afraid of making a mistake if she leaves and realizing he was the wrong man. And that I will have moved on. I told her that's a possibility and part of the consequences of her actions. I know she's spilt in between. And that there is love for me there. She has said as much. But she can't get over feelings for him. The therapist said she has to reestablish boundaries at work. But I don't think she can do it. The therapist also said I shouldn't be focusing on him but on my marriage. Therapist is out of her mind. ESP if my wife is in between. But I'll sti go after him. Well see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express

You are being manipulated every which way there is to manipulate someone---the suicide crap is BS, manipulation,---the love for you is BS manipulation-----ONE DOES NOT CHEAT AND HAVE A's on someone they LOVE---her constant me, me, me, is manipulation of you

Here is where you are and what you need to make plain to her-----She is a grown woman, and you know you cannot control her----so she is free to do whatever she wants---what she also must know is that you will NEVER SHARE HER WITH ANOTHER MAN---so if she does not stop NOW---this mge is over

Stop letting her make the decision---This is YOUR life---you need to make decisions about YOUR future---your counselor is also off-base---THERE IS NO MGE. TO WORK ON, as long as she is in contact/has feelings for another man----you can only have a mge where only 2 are involved, and they love each other, not other people---IMHO---you probably need a new counselor---ACTUALLY YOU DON'T NEED ANY COUNSELOR UNTIL SHE GOES NC, and DECIDES TO WORK COMPLETLY ON THE MGE.

This is never gonna work--if she stays at her job---so if I were you, maybe you should just file for D now---what is it that you don't understand about she has to be completely away from her lover ALL THE TIME, FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE---she can't forget him if she sees him everyday, and is in contact with him

You keep stating she has to stay at work--what is it---the money---IT BOILS DOWN TO THIS---MGE---- OR---- JOB, AND CONTINUED CONTACT---it can't be any plainer than the nose on your face

You need to stop manking excuses for her---she is selfish, and she is still all about me,me,me, with her little drama---you know she is no more gonna commit suicide than you are----time for you to wake up---AND DO WHAT IS BEST FOR YOU


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## The 13th_Floor

She'll commit suicide? I'd tell her to go jump off a bridge then. She won't. If this affects her job she'll leave you? Wow, she's pulling out ALL the stops to manipulate you.


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## seeking sanity

I don't find all this projection by other posters anger to be anyway helpful. 13th floor - telling her to jump off a bridge is complete bs. I've had a suicidal spouse and I can tell you that being in f*cking emergency room after she's OD'd isn't a pleasant life experience. Don't trivialize it.

She's communicating her feelings. They are hard to hear, but people are complex, emotional creatures. Just because her feelings are not what he wants to hear, doesn't mean they should be dismissed. 

From her point of view, she's unsure if she can be happy with him. She feels a connection to another man, and it stirred things in her she thought were long gone. Does it suck? Absolutely. But taking the position that she shouldn't have those feelings is pointless because it doesn't address reality. 

You have a couple choices: 1. Leave/separate. If dealing with it is too much, you are totally within your rights to leave. A lot of people can't handle it, and there is no shame in choosing to exit the relationship. 2. Wait it out. Be a loving, supportive spouse and help her get through the withdrawal. Affairs are similar to drug addiction. She's an addict that is withdrawaling from her fix. It takes time to get a clear head space. 3. Wait it out conditionally (what I'd recommend) - Be there if she adheres to some conditions. I'd clearly state them - no contact, passwords, etc.

Something like: "Honey, I know you are struggling to figure things out. I'd like our marriage to work and I think we should at least give it a shot. I'm willing to support you as you work through your feelings. But I have conditions. They are x, y, and z. As long as you honour those, I will support you and give you the time you need. I'll also respect any decision you come to. However, if you violate my boundaries, I'm going to file for divorce."

It's up to you.


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## elph

Thank you seeking sanity. That is really the path I've been following. Doin the 180 is difficult but as her husband I am also her best friend. Which I've been acting more of. It hasn't been easy, and as she's taking more I've an active role in her withdrawal she has also started talking more of her own volition. 

But the story gets weirder. Her mom, who knows, was shopping at the store they work, saw him and confronted him. She told him to back off and said that he was destroying her relationship with her son. He then threw her under the bus and said he was going through therapy over it, his mom found out and wasn't happy, said she was damaged goods and he only wanted to be with her when she was whole and she needs therapy. 
That was Thursday morning, right before we went to Monterey. She left her phone at home and we had a lot of time to talk, or more importantly she talked and I listened. She used my phone to call him with me in the room to ask a few last questions while she seemed closure. But got off the phone angry but ready to let the healing begin. Now she works with him on tues, but shes gonna enlist some co workers to help her out to avoid him/ get through the work day. 

She seems serious about healing there. And while we stile have plentyof work to do on our marriage, it seems as if the biggest roadblock maybe out of the way because he said he was totally backingoff. Well see, but so far so good
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Elph, sorry to say this but you are in the fog of a bertayed spouse , in simple language you are a doormat . All it needs is for OM to say some nice words to your wife and she will be in his arms. If you think all is well and on track to save your marriage then ...don't , you are deluding yourself. If you read the posts of the affairs that succeed in breaking up marriages you will read the same pattern in yours. Where on earth does your wife get to phone the OM to get closure : stop being weak, stop being a doormat and start taking control, when your wife restarts the affair what will you say then? Set the boundaries high, boundaries designed to protect your marriage . For a start insist she leaves her job, no debate, if she does not you may as well divorce her now. Buy "surviving an affair" by Harley, save your marriage or carry on as you are and lose your wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sdesruiss

Elph. In many ways, I am in a very similar situation as you. I have been with her for 20 years and now I don't even know who she is. I feel like she is ill and I am trying to help her get better. Maybe that's not reality, but it is hard to watch someone you love, fall apart right in front of you. Keep your head up.


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## elph

Eli,
you may be right to a degree...i know i keep hoping for the best. after all, who wants their marriage to end. and i am trying to be a loving and compassionate and supportive spouse while she tries to heal, that way, when and if it comes time to heal our marriage, we can focus on what ive been through.

the kicker is that part of her wants to save the marriage. she has said as much. and part of her just wants to breathe for while. 
i know that sounds odd, or even like a red flag...but hear me out a bit.
she went from living with her parents to moving in with me...shes never had her own place or anything...which to me shouldnt make a big difference...but part of her wants to deal with that aspect of life...the thing is shes afraid of losing me in the process...

weve been together for 17 years..over half our life...and this stuff has been really hard...i dont want to let her go...after her mom confronted him, it seems like this first phase might be over...shes got a long road ahead...but if he really backs off, it will be so much easier...the whole weekend she said how hurt she was, and how it felt to be dumped...the one conversation she had that i listedn to confirmed everythng shes been saying...i know shes got the love you , but not inlove with you thing going on...and i believe that if hes outta the picture and she heals herself, then eventually we can find that love again...but she has to have a clear head...i also know that the co worker thing can be done...but she has to stick to her boundaries...and him too...

but its breaking me because of how patient i have to be....to watch her deal with this, it tough...because i know i we can be happy again.
iv already done alot of healing on my own...but still want to be able to trust her again...i need to toughen up and know the 180 will help..its just watching her withdrawl is hard...she went form wanting to clock him, to wanting to just cry...she told me alot of it was about intensity...but that she misses him, but whes really trying to heal...and even with that there is no guarenttee thatll fix our marriage..but ill try..


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## 8yearscheating

I know your feelings and just want to start with NO ONE posting on here knows your wife or you or the complete details of your situation. This site is filled with angry and negative people who feel that it's all about taking a tough love do it now or get out position. The first rule to surviving an affair should be to do no harm to the one you love if YOU want to make it work. Your wife is just starting to come out of the fog. Her feelings of not being worth your devotion and love are the first stages of guilt and remorse for what she has done to you and your marriage. The conflict she's facing of her own selfish needs to be made to feel needed, attractive and loved by the OM are just beginning to come into the stark light of reality that it was false and a very bad blow to the integrity and good person she thought she was. She is still in some way reaching for the happiness she thought she had and is mourning the loss of the OM. It is extremely difficult for the DS to feel any sympathy for this because of the pain you feel over the betrayal and knowing she feel love with someone other than you and shared her body. Three severe blows to your trust, security and past faith in her. But back to the do no harm idea. Verbally abusing or punishing her is NOT going to help her fall in love with you. Being a rock of support, compassionate of her feelings and setting firm boundaries will bring her back. All of things she said about your marriage being bad were two things, her justification for the affair AND in a very small percentage of truth that you can use to work on you to be the better person than the OM and start working toward a marriage she WANTS to be in. Her fog caused her to use a very black brush to paint you. You need to look for the grains of truth in them that state what she wants and needs. She needs to do the same with you but is just starting to have the strength to do so. It sucks and it's back asswards but it will continue to get better as she comes out of the self pity phase and begins to want to save the M and be the person you do deserve. It takes time for her to come to these realizations and begin to heal her self. I think she's moving the right way. Set the long term goals and boundaries/needs you have and then tell her you won't punish or hammer her for progress as long as you see she is seriously trying. If you talk about the A, keep on flat emotion on your part and thank her for her honesty - a big first step in creating a 100% open and honest relationship that is required to make a lasting marriage. Praise her positive efforts. I support you in whatever decisions you make. Ignore the negative angry BS you see on here. None if it will lead to what you want. On trust, trust but verify to insure she doesn't slip backwards and so that you can begin to believe she is worthy of your trust. Just don't be in her about it unless your sure she is not backsliding. Good luck. Keep the faith and hope and let time work for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seeking sanity

:iagree:


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## elph

Thank you for the positive words. 

I should let it be known that I am not 100% perfect here. I put a program on her phone that can monitor her texts even if she deletes them. I can't trust her right now and sure as he'll can't trust them. I did it right after d day. There were just txts to him. He only txt her work stuff. Then last week as her vacation started it was alot of miss u love u stuff. Till my wifes mom confronted him right before we left to Monterey and that was a very good trip. She didn't bring her phone. But I allowed her to call to get some answers. I remained in the room as he call went on. And like I said he didn't help himself none. Her mom told him to back off because it was hurting the family amd her relationship with our sun. My wife talked all weekend as she was starting to heal. And not talking because I was asking questions( tho I did that too) but talking because she wanted to. That makes me feel she's starting the withdrawal and healing phase. She let her best girl friend/ coworker in on the info for support. Her bff position is non judgmental and just wants my wife to be happy. She had no allegiance tothe OM. 
But he did go to the bff after the confrontation to get info and send info to my wife. 

I read the texts from yesterday. And it seems as if they may use the bff to communicate through. She told her bff to tell him that she misses him so much and they wish they could talk, if only to get answers. I don't know if this will be come a recurring theme or if my wife is just dealing with the healing process. Since he abruptly ended it amd basically dumped her I understand some of what she's feeling because she would want closure. I'm just hoping that's shes not trying to keep it going. He was told to backoff. And like I said earlier, threw my wife under the bus when talking to my mother in law. 

I've only got 2 things left in my arsenal left. Going to his soon to be ex wife, who also works for the same company but different store, and going to her boss/ store manager. Both are basically death blows that will truly end the marriage in my wifes eyes, and while could get him transferred can also backfire and do the same to her. Which I don't want. I'm hoping she is just on the path to healing. That he does back away and my wife does grow as she says she wants to. I know it's a Longshot. But I'm also trying to think of different living arrangments and how to afford stuff if we separate. I of course hope if it came to that that she would wake up and realize the grass isn't greener, but I'm deathly scared of all that too. The worse part is she tells me how great I am and a good father etc. And if you saw this guy, he's a chud. The only things he's got onme is height and anything that may go with that. ( he's 6 2 I'm 5 7). And believe me that's a whole frustration in and unto itself. 

Not gonna lie too. I'm dying inside. Some days I'm strong. Other days I just want to go after him and eliminate him so that here's no choice but to get over him, if you know what I mean. 
Arghhhhhhhh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seeking sanity

There's a saying on another board - No Contact = No New Hurts. Closure is a false idol in that the "one more talk" never provides the finality they are looking for. It's the equivilent of more more cigarette, one more drink, one more hit... 

At some point, you'll need to decide your boundaries over continued contact. For me, I would make no contact a line in the sand. As much as I subscribe to understanding and empathy, there is a cost to your soul in all of this. And if she is continuing to talk with him, then the affair is still active. 

Keep on the 180. Decide what you can and cannot put up with.


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## elph

seeking sanity said:


> There's a saying on another board - No Contact = No New Hurts. Closure is a false idol in that the "one more talk" never provides the finality they are looking for. It's the equivilent of more more cigarette, one more drink, one more hit...
> 
> At some point, you'll need to decide your boundaries over continued contact. For me, I would make no contact a line in the sand. As much as I subscribe to understanding and empathy, there is a cost to your soul in all of this. And if she is continuing to talk with him, then the affair is still active.
> 
> Keep on the 180. Decide what you can and cannot put up with.



i wish i would have made the connection between closure and one more drink sooner, thats a good one...

and i agree, contact equals affair...

she went back to work today. she supposed to work with him tues and thurs. so well see if he truly backs off. my wife says shes angry and hurt over this and how she dumped him and in such a calm manner...she believes he was going to do it for a while...but i still think shell try to talk to him...just because thats what people who get dumped do. 
as well she has a counseling session tomorrow. so well see how that goes. 

ive been wishy washy on my 180 , but tonight i held firm. talked alittle bit about the day, acknowledged the elephant in the room briefly (her going back to work), but the rest was small talk and playing with the kid....the big thing for me is when she went to sleep, there was no kiss goodnight or i love u to her...

i have my up and down days...and im hoping there is no incident..i dont think shed tell me at this point...but maybe she will, with only 75% truth....

well see how it goes...

as this whole ordeal has gone on, i find my self becoming numb to think about it...and i guess that helps..but at the same time, the anger at my wife is starting to brew again...and i ve really become more worried about my son...how this will all effect him..

i still think once the fog has lifted we can be okay...its just so hard being patient...


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## jnj express

How long do you intend to wait on your wife----she still has feelings for him----I understand that AP's usually can't cut things out COLD TURKEY---but she isn't doing anything to help---you I am willing to bet are still in 2nd place

Big loser here is your son, her own flesh and blood child---what is there that she doesn't see in re:she may wreck her sons life, scar him forever, and cause him to be tossed back and forth tween 2 unhappy parents----IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THIS SHOULD HAVE ENDED

IMHO---as long as she works with this guy---the A. will continue---her feelings for him will not go away----he is right there getting his own time in with her, and you can do nothing about it----like it or not you are in a job, vs, marriage conflict---and you could very likely lose if she does not leave her job, or move to another store

Your MIL, allegedly laid down the law to him---means nothing---if they are still in love, and working together---they will get together

You have to take a harder approach, and stop with this----I am scared to do this, or scared to do that----Right now YOU DO NOT HAVE A MGE---so what are you scared of---you can't make things any worse than they already are----and yes your wife must come around on her own---but she also must be accountable


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## oaksthorne

jnj express said:


> You are being manipulated every which way there is to manipulate someone---the suicide crap is BS, manipulation,---the love for you is BS manipulation-----ONE DOES NOT CHEAT AND HAVE A's on someone they LOVE---her constant me, me, me, is manipulation of you
> 
> Here is where you are and what you need to make plain to her-----She is a grown woman, and you know you cannot control her----so she is free to do whatever she wants---what she also must know is that you will NEVER SHARE HER WITH ANOTHER MAN---so if she does not stop NOW---this mge is over
> 
> Stop letting her make the decision---This is YOUR life---you need to make decisions about YOUR future---your counselor is also off-base---THERE IS NO MGE. TO WORK ON, as long as she is in contact/has feelings for another man----you can only have a mge where only 2 are involved, and they love each other, not other people---IMHO---you probably need a new counselor---ACTUALLY YOU DON'T NEED ANY COUNSELOR UNTIL SHE GOES NC, and DECIDES TO WORK COMPLETLY ON THE MGE.
> 
> This is never gonna work--if she stays at her job---so if I were you, maybe you should just file for D now---what is it that you don't understand about she has to be completely away from her lover ALL THE TIME, FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE---she can't forget him if she sees him everyday, and is in contact with him
> 
> You keep stating she has to stay at work--what is it---the money---IT BOILS DOWN TO THIS---MGE---- OR---- JOB, AND CONTINUED CONTACT---it can't be any plainer than the nose on your face
> 
> You need to stop manking excuses for her---she is selfish, and she is still all about me,me,me, with her little drama---you know she is no more gonna commit suicide than you are----time for you to wake up---AND DO WHAT IS BEST FOR YOU


Always listen and take seriously any talk of suicide. Mental health counselors know this from experience, if a person talks about it they are thinking about doing it. The one thing I do agree with in this post is that there needs to be NC.


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## KathyGriffinFan

This is my first venture to this side of the forum. I have to agree with others that it seems like you're almost being used as a doormat.

There is no accountability on her part, just a husband that has been wronged and keeps supporting this behavior by not putting his foot down and setting boundaries and explaining his own needs. 
This does not seem healthy, standing idly by as someone decides what to do with your life.

From all that you have said, it truly sounds that your wife does not want to be in the marriage anymore. As you yourself pointed out, she has nowhere else to go.

I think that although you want the marriage to go on, you have to ask yourself the bigger question of what is the best for you in the long term. 

I'm all for saving marriages, as my own marriage has not been easy and a piece of cake, but this would be way too much for me to take. Although it would pain me to no end, I'd have to move forward with them out of my life. I could not sit and wait for someone to figure whether or not they want to be with me.


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## elph

my goal is that if shes in the fog to help her out, and it seams as if shes trying to heal...to that affect and from something else ive read about an affair being like an addiction, im trying to help her get through it....some of the things shes said sounds like that phase...of course somethings she said sounds like shes still in the fog...

after the confrontation, when they had a discussion he was very calm...that really disturbed my wife and gave her the sense that he was planning it for a while, and it gave him an easy out...

shes now going through a full phase of emotions that is similar to being dumped...im sticking to my 180 because shell come looking for me..in theory...and shell find some solace but i want her to get the feeling that im slowiy moving on...

before the confrontation i gave her some rules , primarily, if you continue contact with him, or if you continue a relationship, you have to move out...i can live with her being in the house as long as shes healing and helping to raise our son...knowing that if/when her head clears, she will realize whats gone on...

the funny thing is my b-day was sun. and part of what she wrote in the card was 
"no matter what i love you so much and you are my best friend in the whole world. there are no words for what you are putting up with and what i am making you go through. you are the best person, man, husband, father, love and friend i will evr know. i love you and please have a fantastic birthday"

of course during the weekend, she shared the fact that he cant compare to me and that im better than him on so many levels...yet she was with him....

i dont know...read into that what you will...

ill be reiterating to her soon that she IS going to lose her best friend no matter what, unless she figures it out and decides to work on the marriage....but i want to see her attempt to heal as well as see how the 180 goes...


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## elph

well it looks like theres been a new wrinkle added to all this..

she went to her therapy session today and had a massive panic/anxiety attack...

looks like shell be put on meds..and out MC will turn into her IC.

any advice on how to handle this new development?


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## jnj express

You've stuck with her this long, and been there for her---you have put up with way more than many others would have put up with----so now she probably does need you ---so obviously just help her, as you would if she were sick, and you were caring for your sick wife

What triggered the panic attack---you might wanna ask the therapist---something caused it

That still does not change the fact tho!!!!!! That she MUST STOP CONTACT, and that means she CANNOT see him at work

You are very selfless, as you put up with her being with the other guy, even on your own birthday----what does that say to you-----We can and do give you all of our opinions, and you are getting advice from experts who all have walked the walk, they know of what they speak---but bottom line this is your life, and you have to decide how to live it, and you have to decide how much you can take!!!!!

Just don't sell yourself short---giving you a card with the sentiments that she wrote, even while spending your birthday with the other guy---is just plain driving a dagger into your heart, and then twisting it----you are a lot tougher than I ever would have been---no matter what stand tall


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## jnj express

One more thing---you taking care of your wife, due to her anxiety attack---that is reality---

---I very much doubt the other guy would/could do what is needed to take care of her---they have only fantasy together


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## elph

jnj express said:


> You've stuck with her this long, and been there for her---you have put up with way more than many others would have put up with----so now she probably does need you ---so obviously just help her, as you would if she were sick, and you were caring for your sick wife
> 
> What triggered the panic attack---you might wanna ask the therapist---something caused it
> 
> That still does not change the fact tho!!!!!! That she MUST STOP CONTACT, and that means she CANNOT see him at work
> 
> You are very selfless, as you put up with her being with the other guy, even on your own birthday----what does that say to you-----We can and do give you all of our opinions, and you are getting advice from experts who all have walked the walk, they know of what they speak---but bottom line this is your life, and you have to decide how to live it, and you have to decide how much you can take!!!!!
> 
> Just don't sell yourself short---giving you a card with the sentiments that she wrote, even while spending your birthday with the other guy---is just plain driving a dagger into your heart, and then twisting it----you are a lot tougher than I ever would have been---no matter what stand tall



i know what triggered the panic attack...
her mom had a big conversation with her before her session about the concept of letting me go and letting me move on...and that was a HUGE deal to her...the idea that i wouldnt be there for her affected her..that her mom told her that she cant be a cake eater basically...my wifes biggest thing is a fear of making the wrong decision...
there is obviously our history...17 years of it and all that i represent...while she says shes not "in love" with me and that she cant be married to somebody shes not "in love" with, there is a deeper love than that...id call it true love really and her thing with him is that " romantic love" that shes comparing it too...she doesnt want to lose me and all that because she knows deep down there is a chance...
at the same time he reperesnts that newness...the grass is greener...she thinks of him as an oppotunity to be "happy" even though she cant define what that "happy" is...shes afraid of missing an opportunity...and i think the fantasy world shes created...sure his and our kids hung out, and she was invited to some bbqs and such whith his parents and all while he was still married...and she wants that life...

but ive adapted to learning the things ive done wrong in our marriage...

she also kinds just wants to be on her own...because shes never been. she went from living with her mom, to moving in with me, to a year breakup where she moved in with some coworkers and friends who she ended up dating (he was abusive and that ended), to getting back with me and getting married...so shes never had her own thing going...

so that triggered it.

as for the birthday, there was zero contact the day before and on...
but the therapist said that shes surrounded by alot of intense people. me, him, her mom, her aunt. all badgering her and putting this preassure on...that we all need to back off...i of course will be 180ing her....that she needed the meds to help her get a clear head and that she was going through a personal crisis right now and would be the wrong time to make any decision...

so i made a vow to her to be as supportive as possible...and i will...i dont know how hell factor in...she tried to contact him yesterday during because he has had panic attacks before and she told me this...but she had a hard time because he had her number blocked...so there is a no contact thing in place but again, because she didnt initiate, shes having a hard time with it...

so im stuck between my ego and whats right..and basically i need to figure that out as well...

theres more but i just cant think of it right now...


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## elph

oh now i remember one thing..

its the guilt...

of our marriage and if she wants to be in it anymore..
and of her "relationship" with him...

hes said to her that one of the MANY reasons he left his wife was to be with her, so i think that if she doesnt leave me then she feels guilty because of how things progressed with him and things that might have been said before i found this out...i know she talked about leaving me...and he said he'd wait, but then again i know hes putting pressure on her and she feels guilty that she hasn't and that shes messed up his life...although his problems really are his own and he needed to figure out his stuff with his wife, regardless of mine...i pretty sure shes used the word soulmate with him and got caught up in it...and with the diagnosis of depression it really comes off as the affair being like a drug to fill a need for her...

so the guilt though is huge aspect...


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## KathyGriffinFan

elph said:


> she also kinds just wants to be on her own...because shes never been. she went from living with her mom, to moving in with me, to a year breakup where she moved in with some coworkers and friends who she ended up dating (he was abusive and that ended), to getting back with me and getting married...so shes never had her own thing going...
> 
> so that triggered it.
> 
> as for the birthday, there was zero contact the day before and on...
> but the therapist said that shes surrounded by alot of intense people. me, him, her mom, her aunt. all badgering her and putting this preassure on...that we all need to back off...i of course will be 180ing her....that she needed the meds to help her get a clear head and that she was going through a personal crisis right now and would be the wrong time to make any decision...
> 
> so i made a vow to her to be as supportive as possible...and i will...i dont know how hell factor in...she tried to contact him yesterday during because he has had panic attacks before and she told me this...but she had a hard time because he had her number blocked...so there is a no contact thing in place but again, because she didnt initiate, shes having a hard time with it...
> 
> so im stuck between my ego and whats right..and basically i need to figure that out as well...
> 
> theres more but i just cant think of it right now...


She contacted him to ask about his past experiences with panic attacks, but he has her number blocked.

Oy vey.

From an outside point of view, it does sound strange to say you're having a panic attack because the realization of impending divorce is hitting you, so you run to your phone to call the other man and ask about his prior panic attacks.


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## Eli-Zor

When she has sucked you dry she will move on to the waiting OM. All the good things you do for her mean nothing while she has a fantasy for the OM. 

While she works close him she will always put him first, put your foot down, one of them must go from the work place. If you are worried about finances think of not having her money when she divorces you, your marriage is worth considerable more than the money she earns.

Stop being a nice guy and roughen your edges.


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## KathyGriffinFan

Eli-Zor said:


> When she has sucked you dry she will move on to the waiting OM. All the good things you do for her mean nothing while she has a fantasy for the OM.
> 
> While she works close him she will always put him first, put your foot down, one of them must go from the work place. If you are worried about finances think of not having her money when she divorces you, your marriage is worth considerable more than the money she earns.
> 
> Stop being a nice guy and roughen your edges.


^I agree. I said it on another thread, but there is a fine line between being a loving husband supporting his wife during turbulent times and a doormat.

Elph, you sound like a wonderful man but I can't help but think your wife is just taking advantage of you and your understanding ways.


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## elph

i was aware of his issues a long time ago when they were just coworkers...its not particularly odd for me..and she was bad last night...i had to pick her up outside of the therrapist office..she couldnt feel her feet or hands..and i had to carry her to my car to take her home where she was puking for quite a while... 
i dont think the attack was caused by an impending divorce, because no decision has benn made...her mom thinks its a 50/50...i think the attacks were because of guilt and all the pushing on our part..she was simply overwhelmed...

a fro the "waiting"OM . i just dont think thats the case...my wife is a passive person and far from malicious...that isnt to say she hasnt been doing a bad thing...but using me like that just to go running into the arms of another man...not in that way..no. 
her recurring phrase is i dont want to hurt you or see you sad...has she though about leaving me. yes. has she done it. no...and i sure as heck think she hasnt looked past thenose on her face in terms of what kind of life they would have together...paying bills, sleeping, you know reality. not to mention, he comes with alot of baggage in terms of his soon to be exwife, who suspected but couldnt confirm that he left her for my wife...
for me to enter the workplace and create something there would most certainly rule in his favor...same with going to the soon to be ex..

the reality is, we get her on meds. she has several IC sessions, and since we started as MC the therapist has a sense of our relationship...i think the therapist will help her get some clarity and define what shes looking for..most importantly the concepts of "in love" and "happy". it seemed form our seeion that the therapist had a liking to me and our marriage and really wanted to see ti survive, and shes dealt with affaris before and can breakdown some reality for her. like in the last session where she mention that they were both unhealthy and would not be going into a fresh start relationship but an unhealthy one that would esseintially be doomed.


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## KathyGriffinFan

How are things going now?


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## The 13th_Floor

elph said:


> i was aware of his issues a long time ago when they were just coworkers...its not particularly odd for me..and she was bad last night...i had to pick her up outside of the therrapist office..she couldnt feel her feet or hands..and i had to carry her to my car to take her home where she was puking for quite a while...
> i dont think the attack was caused by an impending divorce, because no decision has benn made...her mom thinks its a 50/50...i think the attacks were because of guilt and all the pushing on our part..she was simply overwhelmed...
> 
> a fro the "waiting"OM . i just dont think thats the case...my wife is a passive person and far from malicious...that isnt to say she hasnt been doing a bad thing...but using me like that just to go running into the arms of another man...not in that way..no.
> her recurring phrase is i dont want to hurt you or see you sad...has she though about leaving me. yes. has she done it. no...and i sure as heck think she hasnt looked past thenose on her face in terms of what kind of life they would have together...paying bills, sleeping, you know reality. not to mention, he comes with alot of baggage in terms of his soon to be exwife, who suspected but couldnt confirm that he left her for my wife...
> for me to enter the workplace and create something there would most certainly rule in his favor...same with going to the soon to be ex..
> 
> the reality is, we get her on meds. she has several IC sessions, and since we started as MC the therapist has a sense of our relationship...i think the therapist will help her get some clarity and define what shes looking for..most importantly the concepts of "in love" and "happy". it seemed form our seeion that the therapist had a liking to me and our marriage and really wanted to see ti survive, and shes dealt with affaris before and can breakdown some reality for her. like in the last session where she mention that they were both unhealthy and would not be going into a fresh start relationship but an unhealthy one that would esseintially be doomed.


I talked to my wife's OM on the phone the second I found the hotel room reservation. Yea, I called WHILE they were in the hotel room. He tried to act like all hardcore until he realized I wasn't the p*ssy my wife described to him. God help him if I find out something else is going on. He deployed to the middle east 2 weeks after I caught them.

My point is, if you know where this guy works, who he is and what he's doing, why have you not shown up to his place of business and beat the piss out of him? I just don't get it. Let my wife's OM contact her again and I will massacre him....


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## AppleDucklings

a friend suggested to me that I should go to OW's place of work (a fast food store) order a meal and sit there and stare her down all night. Don't do nothing else, just stare her down, lol


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## elph

a little update...

right now im doing a 180 with her..ive backed off, per her therapist request. we had a last MC last week and today it switches to IC. at that session i was able to finally vent how ive been feeling about everything, and that spilled over into the evening...she gave me the whole i love you, not in love speech again, and that even if d----..i mean the OM wasnt in the picture it wouldnt change anything...something i know isnt right...got into an emotional discussion and vented alittle more, got angry and called her a ***** (though i didnt mean it, it felt good) we went back n forth, but went to sleep on peaceful terms...we havent brought it up since then...
we have been sticking to just the routine life things..raising our son, dinner, watching tv...the boring stuff...however, i keep conversations short..listen to good songs on the way home so i always enter with a smile on my face, and i dont say i love you anymore...but the big kicker is ive been reading alot latley..self help kinda stuff in front of her...she asks why and i tell her that i need to prepare my self to move on and be ready to be back out there whe she becomes my "ex-wife"

suffice to say she didnt like that comment one bit....


as for the affair it self. they still work together, but shes been put in different position. the OM has been going to his own therapy for his divorce and such...but his thrapist pretty much said that theres is an unhealthy relationship and doomed to fail in its current incarnation. (the OM once said a tight before we went to monterey that he didnt want a broken woman(my wife) that she needed therapy herself to become whole and thats what he wants, a whole woman[which makes me question my wifes motives a bit])

i did go to her workplace 2 weeks ago to answer a text she sent me, and since i was in the neighborhood i stopped by...suffice to say, he was at her office door....i walked in looked straight at him (hes 6'1" im 5'7") he couldnt look me in the eye...i said i need to talk to my wife...he kept his head down and you would think he was usain bolt with howfast he got outta there...the dissusion with my wife was basically i dont know who this person is, not the woman i fell in love with, shes loving caring trusting etc...

he has since been told to and has done blocked her cell and home number and there hasnt been any texts or calls for over a week...the only hint of contact that i can see at this point is my wife txt a coworker (whos also a best friend and went through something similar) to relay a message or two, but she also tells her coworker how shes having a hard time getting over the feelings, doesnt have the strength...typical withdrawl stuff...

i think that once she gets on her anti depression meds and gets a few IC under her belt, she come out of the fog and realize what shes got...ill give it 3 months more...after that, ill make the decision for her...


the only hard thing is the hormones...since we still live together and she still does her daily routing like its all good, i get a half naked wife walking around and that stuff is hard not to react to...

ive told her its been hard to deal with every thing, but im still her husband and all that goes with that, till i sign something that tells me otherwise...


oh as well, she tried to contact the OMs soon to be ex(they used to be friends and coworkers)...because there were rumors going around her store that she wanted to confront...but thats pointless since the ex wont believe anything she says anyway....


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## elph

The 13th_Floor said:


> I talked to my wife's OM on the phone the second I found the hotel room reservation. Yea, I called WHILE they were in the hotel room. He tried to act like all hardcore until he realized I wasn't the p*ssy my wife described to him. God help him if I find out something else is going on. He deployed to the middle east 2 weeks after I caught them.
> 
> My point is, if you know where this guy works, who he is and what he's doing, why have you not shown up to his place of business and beat the piss out of him? I just don't get it. Let my wife's OM contact her again and I will massacre him....


the reason i dont...and believe me i want too sooooo bad, is because i love my wife and son more than i hate him...
im not going to be the one to jeapordize her job, or miss time with my son because im in jail or something just for that ****er....believe me though i could turn it into a real good life lesson for him...but the reality, its just not worth it.....but that doesnt mean though if he comes after me i wount go all goodfellas on his ass ...


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## The 13th_Floor

elph said:


> the reason i dont...and believe me i want too sooooo bad, is because i love my wife and son more than i hate him...
> im not going to be the one to jeapordize her job, or miss time with my son because im in jail or something just for that ****er....believe me though i could turn it into a real good life lesson for him...but the reality, its just not worth it.....but that doesnt mean though if he comes after me i wount go all goodfellas on his ass ...


You don't have to beat his ass, but you CAN scare him with a few words. You're only 5'7, he's 6'1 and walked out with his balls stuck between his legs. I'm 5'10 175lbs and my wife's OM was 6'3 150lbs and believe me, him knowing that I caught them was bad enough. This OM is petrified of me and getting caught by his commander, but I don't care. As soon as my wife finally confesses (if she doesn't, I'll divorce her) I'm going straight to his mother and family to expose the affair. If he contacts her again, I'm going to his unit commander and JAG. He's only 20, he needs to learn.


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## elph

i have a few words for him...all related to his job...or what would be lack there of if he pisses me off...and hes going through a divorce that he initiated....would suck if he didnt have money to support his soon to be ex and his 2 kids...

and yes i will go there....F with my family, and ill F with his...


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## elph

it seems that they have gone further underground. shes using her friend/coworker to relay messages. hand written letters. 

so im pretty much fed up.

i still want to save my marriage, but it cant happen while shes still knee deep in the fog.
i went to the OM's soon to be ex wife and gave her some of the evididence. she already had her suspiscions that something was going on the latter part of their marriage, but this confirms it. she'll deal with him in her own way. custody and such like that, as she should. shes a smart cookie, and he'll have to deal with a life time of that, but he gets what he deserves. 
as well i think im going to confront him. not in a raging manner, but i have enough on him to get him fired at his job, so if doenst want to lose it he can transfer and stay the fk away from my wife...and im going to his mom(hes a mommas boy) its been said that she knows about it, but i think he modified the story to make himself look good. 

but at the same time im kicking it up a notch. per dr. harleys recommendation, im going into a modified plan B/180 . im writing her a letter discussing thta even though we have to live together right now, so long as she continues, shes lost her best friend,a nd any conversation will only be about our son. thats it. no real contact. im gonna go about my business, work on myself, the house, everything wlse that will make me a better man for the future. if that future is with her, then great, but if not..then somebody else gets a great guy, not a Mr. nice guy any more. wholl be strong and confident, with plenty of love to give. 

my wife has been going to therapy, to help her self, but i found out that its just a ploy to heal for him, since they were on "pause" till they both sorted out their issues.


not gonna lie, this hurts worse than almost anything inthe universe...but i have to do it because im tired of the lies, the sneaking around. of it all. im tired of seeing my sons happiness get drained from him because hes so worried about mommy. i know shes depressed and taking medication, but thats no excuse, heck its probably a side effect of the affair.

either way, i can handle it. itll be tough, and im going to miss her and what we had, but what we had is gone now. the woman i fell in love with is gone now.

i know it can, and she can be better, but not right now...

you guys will have to excuse me if i come back to this thread to vent as this goes on. or to need a little boost to help me power thru this...but i appreciate all that everybodys done, this forum has been so helpful.

btw, anybody know what happened to affaircare.com?


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## Eli-Zor

As you know her method of communication some direct action is required, contact the coworker let her know you are aware she is the relay for messages and that not only will you fight for your marriage you will name and shame those assisting in your wifes adultery. Let her know if this goes to a separation of any kind you will name and call as witness those who assisted in the break up. This is tough but follow through burn your wifes bridges to the OM , be very calm, controlled and very pleasant, do not accuse the friend. For interest does your state recognise adultry as a reason for divorce if so this helps you even more as you can subpoena the friend. 

Looks like the affaircare site is off, hope they are OK I guess in these tough times they are feeling it as well. They have been very helpful to a lot of folk here. Thoughts are with them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Have you exposed this to her family, you have to ensure they know she has gone underground and is continuing the affair, even though you have spoken to his wife do you have access to his facebook page . You must make his life very very difficult and as he is in the throws of a divorce it is the ideal time to work hard to make your wife unattractive to him.

Get your wife out of that job, as she is in contact with him you must assume even though you need her salary that it is lost to you if she leaves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

Eli-Zor said:


> As you know her method of communication some direct action is required, contact the coworker let her know you are aware she is the relay for messages and that not only will you fight for your marriage you will name and shame those assisting in your wifes adultery. Let her know if this goes to a separation of any kind you will name and call as witness those who assisted in the break up. This is tough but follow through burn your wifes bridges to the OM , be very calm, controlled and very pleasant, do not accuse the friend. For interest does your state recognise adultry as a reason for divorce if so this helps you even more as you can subpoena the friend.
> 
> Looks like the affaircare site is off, hope they are OK I guess in these tough times they are feeling it as well. They have been very helpful to a lot of folk here. Thoughts are with them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


here in CA, theres no fault divorce...so im screwd there. the only reason i know about all this is because of employee monitoring software i put on her phone.
as for her friend/coworker. she was in our wedding. she initally started off with wanting my wife to be happy. ironically enough she was the OW in an affair that produced a s
child, so as my wife looked to her for support, it was like asking advice on quiting cocaine from scarface...im going to have a nice calm discussion with her voicing my displeasure with her role in this...


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## Eli-Zor

Have your talk and let's see if she going to stop facilitating the affair. If not there are many ways to deal with her. You will be juggling a few items keep your head clear and watch your health.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

Eli-Zor said:


> Have you exposed this to her family, you have to ensure they know she has gone underground and is continuing the affair, even though you have spoken to his wife do you have access to his facebook page . You must make his life very very difficult and as he is in the throws of a divorce it is the ideal time to work hard to make your wife unattractive to him.
> 
> Get your wife out of that job, as she is in contact with him you must assume even though you need her salary that it is lost to you if she leaves.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


her mom, who matters the most, knows about the affair. i keep her very up to date. and shes already expressed the fact that if it continues, she loses her family, who also does our child care as well.
he doesnt have a facebook page...from what his wife tells me his family is his circle of friends and not much outside of that...

as for him, im going into his workplace. confront him, may go to a few other people of influence while im there who can help break this up....hes done alot of this using work time and rescources, which i dont think the company would appreciate...i think i can get him transfered pretty easily with that..if hes also a department head...and he would schedule my wife to work on certain days and deny hours to other employess just for that...thats sexual harrasment. his ass is mine, my only heisitation and the reason why i want him transferred is because he has two kids, and as a father, im not trying to take food out of their mouths...im gonna try to save her job, shes been there too long and has to much riding on it, so he should be the one to leave.

well see how this goes..thank you for your reply..


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## the guy

Just a couple of things to keep in mind when confronting OM.
It sound like you want to be civil witch is fine (not my way) so let him know what ever your wife has told him that the point is you do still love her and you are making every effort in repairing the marriage. Even though the OM may have heard differently and your wife wants to bail, you are asking him to give you and your son a chance in repairing the family by discontinuing the adultary.

Let him know you understand your wifes involvment, but you are not talking to your wife...you are talking to him and asking him to do the right thing and give your son his mother back and have the respect to leave a married woman along.

As far as the OM family, you want to come off as not vengeful but a concerned husband and father. Letting the OM mother know that you are asking for her support in ending the affair her son is having with a married woman and that if she does'nt believe you that she is welcome to see the proof you have.

Your main concern is getting there support in making this affair as inconvienent and uncomfortable as possible. That and removing the bad influences from your wife so that she can make a realistic disicision on what she wants for the family

Remeber always take the stand that you want support to repair the marriage and it has nothing to do with revenge. And that you only want to share your side of the story and that what ever anyone says ..you want the family to stay intact and you want the marraige to work out and if not at least have the influences that are effecting the dynamics of the marriage to be gone so that either way the family unit can have a healthy transition from a R or a D.

This is the first leveL of civility, level two is showing OM your gun collection. level three is a gas soaked rag in his gas tank with the break light wires connected to it. (this only works if the gas tank is on the passanger side of his car). Back in the day, they use to put the gas cap behind the licence plate.

Nothing says leave my wife alone like a burning car.


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## 8yearscheating

Tourchwood said:


> ELF
> what the Heck, you are talking about rehab like she is a drug addict or some snif snif abuse, and mixing some alcohol to her crystal myth.
> 
> the Woman Cheated, she went naked in front a guy and did him fully know the consequences to her action. has nothing to do with rehab or emotions or they way person grown up.
> if this happened in Iran or Pakistan she will stoned to death no time for being remorse or rehab.
> its your life, and you choose. anything can be fixed except cheating.


Get off it. This is not helpful or what he needs or wants to hear. He knows what she did and this just stirring his emotions unnecessarily.


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## 8yearscheating

Tourchwood said:


> kick your wife out, or take your son and leave.


This is again way off base. The man says he wants to R and you say kick her out. Go talk to a wall. You are not in any way helpful to E.


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## elph

the guy said:


> Just a couple of things to keep in mind when confronting OM.
> It sound like you want to be civil witch is fine (not my way) so let him know what ever your wife has told him that the point is you do still love her and you are making every effort in repairing the marriage. Even though the OM may have heard differently and your wife wants to bail, you are asking him to give you and your son a chance in repairing the family by discontinuing the adultary.
> 
> Let him know you understand your wifes involvment, but you are not talking to your wife...you are talking to him and asking him to do the right thing and give your son his mother back and have the respect to leave a married woman along.
> 
> As far as the OM family, you want to come off as not vengeful but a concerned husband and father. Letting the OM mother know that you are asking for her support in ending the affair her son is having with a married woman and that if she does'nt believe you that she is welcome to see the proof you have.
> 
> Your main concern is getting there support in making this affair as inconvienent and uncomfortable as possible. That and removing the bad influences from your wife so that she can make a realistic disicision on what she wants for the family
> 
> Remeber always take the stand that you want support to repair the marriage and it has nothing to do with revenge. And that you only want to share your side of the story and that what ever anyone says ..you want the family to stay intact and you want the marraige to work out and if not at least have the influences that are effecting the dynamics of the marriage to be gone so that either way the family unit can have a healthy transition from a R or a D.
> 
> This is the first leveL of civility, level two is showing OM your gun collection. level three is a gas soaked rag in his gas tank with the break light wires connected to it. (this only works if the gas tank is on the passanger side of his car). Back in the day, they use to put the gas cap behind the licence plate.
> 
> Nothing says leave my wife alone like a burning car.


you hit the nail on the head in so many ways...oddly enough on d-day, i sent him a text which i saved those exact things, about saving my marriage and family...he obviously scoffed at that. when my mother in law confronted him, the same things were reiterated, esp in concerns to my son...again it lasted for a few days...hes the father of two young kids, but doesnt seem to care. ill give him one chance...then i dont care what happens to him..and i hope his ex gets every demand she has, full custody, house, child support, the whole nine...funny thing is he doenst even know that ive gone to her...yet.

with the exception of the burning car, im pretty much going to do as you said. 
a civil interaction with his mother (who i found out lost her first husband the same way, to an affair) but ive also heard that shes a little psycho...

ill confront him in a very firm manner...with any luck he gets scared or angry and swings at me on camera on company premisis...then thats a total win!!!

unfortunately hes the one with the gun collection. (when our house was robbed he was going to take me to the range, this was a couple of years ago ) in fact i may just go get a restraining order as well, just to be on the safe side.

my goal is to save the marriage, but to my wife itll be to move on. 180 style...ive done all i can in the short amount of time since finding out (feb) but i can only do so much while this is going on...


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## Eli-Zor

If you have ready confronted him don't do it again he could carry on sucking your wife in out of delight as he thinks you can do very little. Change your strategy , key here is to get him to lose his job I know you are concerned about his children he however is not concerned about your marriage, you or your wife. Find out to whome you write a formal complaint to, if I recall you said she works for a department store, is this a store itself or head office, it is likely the head office HR team will ignore it however the local manager or general manager may not be of the same opinion especially if your note implies they are open to legal action and negative publicity. The note has to be finely crafted. 

You may end up having an unemployed wife and be married rather than being divorced and her having a job. Sorry the choices are tough,the only way out that I see is she leaves the job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Elph, I think you have all the right things and are using your head. You don't need and can't end up jail so consider those thoughts fantasies and hopefully some day you'll be able to focus on your marriage and forget the OM. I had the same thoughts, turn him into a woman with a hollow point and watch him bleed out. Put a few snap caps in my 45 and squeeze the trigger a few times holding it to his head and watch him **** his pants..on an on. All would have landed me in jail and would have convinced my wife I was nuts and drive her away. Personally I don't believe in the total context of a 180. It does nothing to show your wife how much she means to you and is deceitful and intimidating to her. Precisely what may have driven her to a point of wanting to have an affair. In your earlier posts you stated you were working on the why it occurred and trying to change yourself to make you the better person - the one she wants and it was obvious she noticed. I do think backing off and giving her room to think it through and process your position is good. I also think stating your requirements, boundaries and expectations for R and sticking to the are good as is stating D is the consequence of not going NC and full transparency. Shutting down communication and letting her know how you feel is counterproductive in my mind. It allows her to hide in the fog and not face what is happening to you. She is NOT facing he mirror when you take that approach IMHO. I wrote a long opinion using my own story in the thread Manning up should not be abuse in the mens clubhouse and I think it may help you decide what is best for you. Your wife is following the typical actions that my wife did made worse by the workplace and proximity. I agree it's best if she changes jobs, but it has to be her decision which sounds like that not an option. You going to her work and publicly confronting him may only serve to strengthen her resolve to go towards him because it severely embarrass her and could cause both of them to lose their jobs. If you want to confront him - do it outside the workplace and I would suggest by phone because face to face could result in more problems for you. A restraining order can only apply to you and your son unless your wife agrees to it for herself. I would contact the BFFl and nicely tell her she is interferring in your marriage by helping your wife maintain contact and you would appreciate it she would stop it. I would also tell her she is being as bad as the OM by helping him and is not being an honorable person or helping your wife or your son. Don't get into an argument or discussion with her. Just hang up after you stated your points. Same with the OM. DO NOT MAKE THREATS TO EITHER ONE. It won't help and could land you in court for a restraining order against you.

Stay your course but consider my points in the other thread about 180. My wife turned back to me quickly and we are doing very well. She had the same depression and emotional issues combined with a real problem facing conflict and resolving it with me. I too had a serious problem being too strong and aggressive in conflicts which drove her away and into his arms. It took both of us to find the way to R. It also took me making myself the better choice and a safe haven for her to turn to. Your are not being a doormat or too soft in my opinion. You maybe being manipulated but I'm not so sure it's not just her having a real hard breaking it off. That would be easier if the circumstances improved between the two of you. Please read my very long post on the 180 near the end of that thread.


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## elph

Eli-Zor said:


> If you have ready confronted him don't do it again he could carry on sucking your wife in out of delight as he thinks you can do very little. Change your strategy , key here is to get him to lose his job I know you are concerned about his children he however is not concerned about your marriage, you or your wife. Find out to whome you write a formal complaint to, if I recall you said she works for a department store, is this a store itself or head office, it is likely the head office HR team will ignore it however the local manager or general manager may not be of the same opinion especially if your note implies they are open to legal action and negative publicity. The note has to be finely crafted.
> 
> You may end up having an unemployed wife and be married rather than being divorced and her having a job. Sorry the choices are tough,the only way out that I see is she leaves the job.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



i think i followed some advice from affair care when i sent him the text. to get into his head, to let him know i know...that even if he scoffed at it, that i was there. hes continues to slip up. i continued to get more on him...

they work for a large grocery chain. in the store. she works(worked) in his dept. from 1-3 days a week. no longer as it was alterered when other employees complained about hours and picking up the slack when they worked together.

i know the manager of the store and his boss too. hes a save your self kinda guy. oddly enough neither the OM and the manager like each other at all. the OM feels threatend by him, and the manager has make comments to my wife. inappropirate ones too, but my wife is not a boat rocker...but like i said, the OM and manager dont like each other. the only problem is tht if i go to him, theres a 75% chance hed help my wife, but the OMs district boss who loves him may come to his defense...but with the text and phone records of the calls while on the jb are good enough, the complaints frome the other employess are just as good, i just dont know if i could get thier support. 


but i think i can rum up some support from the manager because he doenst want anything Fn up his store...and his dislike of the OM would make it easy...but my wife would be easier to replace..her getting another job, though may be really tough..


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## Eli-Zor

Elph if you scan some my earlier posts in other threads my suggestion is to run a plan A with elements of the 180. What I am concerned of is you must let your wife see the best side of you so when she is doing comparisons it is hard to find fault , the elements of the 180 are to strengthen you when are reaching breaking point. It may sound confusing but you can do most of the carrot of Plan A and a good portion of the 180 without them clashing.

Clear your head and get the strategy at home correct.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

Eli-Zor said:


> Elph if you scan some my earlier posts in other threads my suggestion is to run a plan A with elements of the 180. What I am concerned off and I suspect 8 is you must let your wife see the beast side of you so when she is doing comparisons it hard to find fault , the elements of the 180 are to strengthen you when are reaching breaking point. It may sound confusing but you can do most of the carrot of Plan A and a good portion of the 180 without the clashing.
> 
> Clear your head and get the strategy at home correct.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


one month before d-day and since then ive been being the best i could be. picked up the slack where i new i did wrong. focused more on he family, learned to keep my mouth shut. lost 17 lbs and now look like the new Bond (her words, you know what scene), ive kept up the majority of the 180. shes fluxed between healing and going back. hes been confronted. theyve "broken up" and gotten back together. 
shes started therapy and meds. she also said shes working on her self. but a text between her and her friend stated that they were on pause as both of them "get better' 
shes afraid of him losing interest, to which he always responds hes not going anywhere. shes also afraid/insecure about the soon to be Ex. 

im at the beaking point. 3 times in the past two weeks she left home for work, but i saw textx telling her boss shes running late or will be in an hour after her scheduled time. all while shes telling us shes getting better each day. shes still knee deep in the fog. its time to do somethng different.
i told her after d-day, that if she continues any kind of relationship with him, she loses me as a best freind (which she now considers me, not a husband as she sorts out her feelings)

odd too, she no longer says i love you, no more kisses. i think she thinks if she does that that shes cheating on him. im away for business right now, but it used to be when i left shed get all emotional, she couldnt go a day with out a few i love you texts to me...heck she was like that right up untill d-day, then boom it all changed. got the i love you not in love with you stuff...

shes told her therapist shes afraid of losing me as her best friend, but thas cake eating. that she would move out to find her self, but she doesnt have teh money,and doesnt want to lose time with our son. which i wont let her take.shes also told her therapist that shes not ready to deal with the guilt of what shes done, that itll probably break her....but she continues the behavior....

its really leaves me no choice...either she comes out, or i break free...but i can no longer watch this...

but i might as well make this as difficult as possible for him to, since he decided to mess with my family...


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## Eli-Zor

As you said if looks like their plan is to hold out and get together later, they must be in contact in other ways more than just through the friend. Go full hog you have everything to gain and nothing to lose, you may choose to let her know you will fight for full custody, you will never be friends, her family and his will reject her and you will do everything to prevent her from having your son near the OM. It's early days with her so rock his little world, his wife was the first step, let's see if you can make work life unpleasant for him and her.

Stay strong 

...these smartphones ... I was editing the many mistakes as you were posting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

Eli-Zor said:


> As you said if looks like their plan is to hold out and get together later, they must be in contact in other ways more than just through the friend. Go full hog you have everything to gain and nothing to lose, you may choose to let her know you will fight for full custody, you will never be friends, her family and his will reject her and you will do everything to prevent her from having your son near the OM. It's early days with her so rock his little world, his wife was the first step, let's see if you can make work life unpleasant for him and her.
> 
> Stay strong
> 
> ...these smartphones ... I was editing the many mistakes as you were posting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


these smartphones, have also been the key to her undoing...

oddly enough, when she sees the text records i have from it, shell probably get a new one...at that point though i dont care...she can do what she wants..

im more than willing to fight for my marriage, but there have to be boundries, and im not going to lose my self respect in the process...

you take away this whole affair, and my wfie has been everything ive ever wanted and needed in a wife. inside and out. i understand the logical stuff behind the affair. its just the emotional stuff behind it thats killing me. 

i know deep down, i get her out of the fog,and the woman i feel in love with is in there, and she can be better..but right now, its all about me,and saving her is on her shoulders...


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## 8yearscheating

Two thing for you elph - don't fall in into conspiracy theories about why she trying to get better or why she is not saying I love you. You are doing the same to her in the I love you department - what do you expect. Do you think it's possible she sees your cutting off all emotion and communication as your already gone? I think you know enough about her body language and half answers to know when she lying or telling a half truth. One of the unfortunate results of being where you are. Face to face, ask her why she has stopped saying I love you and bluntly ask if she's trying to get better for the OM or the marriage. You will know by the body language and the way she responds if she is being honest. Specifically let her know after that discussion you are at the end of your rope. You really want to R and think things can be alot stonger and better for both of you if you do. But she continues in contact and you it driving you to be all done. Draw up a separation agreement with her paying 1/2 the mortgage, home expenses and child support. If she has a car with payments tell her it's all her responsibility. Tell her you want her to get an apartment on her dime. Also stick to the point that this is not indefinite. If you don't see NC and a real attempt to R, it will be D in X months and you have already contacted a lawyer about it. The choice is completely hers, NC, transparency and working on R or separation with D shortly to follow. I still don't believe shutting down communication or not showing your feelings is good but it's your choice. I do believe in a firm plan and options to her and sticking to it so she makes her choice.


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## 8yearscheating

And don't hold the kid up as a weapon EVER. A momma bear gets real mean when you threaten her contact with her cubs. You will only drive her away with those threats. Sorry Eli - I disagree on that one.


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## 8yearscheating

On a side note - you said you were travelling on business. I know your job is your job. Has she ever voiced that she feels abandoned and left alone to deal with the kids? My wife sure felt that way and I always blew it off as I had no choice - it was my job. Pay attention elph - these little things make them feel unloved and ignored. More fertile ground to have the good things they want.


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## elph

ive actually seen the text message between her and her friend talking about their therapies and whos "getting better" faster...its a whole mess for a reason to get help...i dont say i love you because the 180 made so much sense...she doesnt say it because she "doenst want to confuse things" she used this same reasoning for sex...(which its so hard to shut down the hormones)

alot of what and why im about to do is based off a letter i read in surviving the affair...similarly constructed like the one for jon...except nobodies moving out...right now, the letter mentions that there is hope to rebuild a relationship, friendship or other wise, but it must come with NC first and foremost....

of course if i get him transfered or fired first that would help...shed be angry short term, but long term it maybe for the best


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## elph

8yearscheating said:


> And don't hold the kid up as a weapon EVER. A momma bear gets real mean when you threaten her contact with her cubs. You will only drive her away with those threats. Sorry Eli - I disagree on that one.


funny thing about your statement..about a month ago the OM got all angry and told her to watch out because i would use my son like some kind of "sick weapon" against her to keep her home and manipulate her...

ive actually dont nothing of the sort. ive told her shes free to go, but my son will not be going over to his house....plain and simple...

yet he did exactly what he said i was going to do, and it flew right over my wifes head


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## 8yearscheating

Answer to other people are tailored to keep the friendship going. Same with the OM. She will not be completely honest with either of them becuase she's still holding out hope for the A and her GF is supporting her in it. Don't read too much into it unless you ask.


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## 8yearscheating

Oh and my wife shut down all touches, I love you's, etc. from the beggining for the same reason. She's confused.


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## elph

8yearscheating said:


> On a side note - you said you were travelling on business. I know your job is your job. Has she ever voiced that she feels abandoned and left alone to deal with the kids? My wife sure felt that way and I always blew it off as I had no choice - it was my job. Pay attention elph - these little things make them feel unloved and ignored. More fertile ground to have the good things they want.


i actually only travel once or twice a year, for a few days at a time...nothing of consequence...so i know thats not an issue...

one of the biggest issues that ill recitify in the future, was sundays. during football season. 
she would take our son out on playdates, or with grandma to run errand ans have fun. occasionally she would be invited over to the OMs fanily house for bbqs. 

i never wanted to go. but its because i always had to do stuff around the house....id watch a little football, but then theres all the stuff my wief didnt do, tha i figured if i did, when she got home form work on the weekdays, she didnt have to stress about it and could focus on our son...little did i know that she took this as a form of neglect. that i shoudlve been spending time with my family, and shouldve confronted her about splitting the house work more evenly...

you live you learn i guess


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## 8yearscheating

Hind sight is 20/20 elph.


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## elph

8yearscheating said:


> Hind sight is 20/20 elph.


yes it is, and i can learn from it.

you know what just occurred to me too?
ill be heading home soon. my wife has therapy on tues. night, so the plan is on wednesday to give her the letter im working on. to expose those who need to know. basically dropping a bomb of my own. to confront the man face to face whos been messing up my life.

its probably the biggest risk ive ever taken.

itll either drive her away further. right into his arms. and the love of my life will be gone.

or save my marriage.


it wont happen over night. im ready for the anger and all the other emotions that will come with it. 

but id be lying if i said i wasnt scared. ****less.

i know i cant keep dealing with this. watching her have the affair, and the lies and how she misses him so much and loves him. all while she thinks i dont know about this.

i wish i had the patience to let her meds help.
i wish i had the patience to let therapy do its thing.
i believe she can come out of the fog shes in.
i dont think shes in for the long haul with this guy, despite what she says. (shes uttered terms like, i can totally be with you forever. and if it feels this way it has to be right!)

but im at wits end. ive punished myself enough by tracking her. once i do this shell adjust and i wont know whats what. she can lie to me all she wants. i wont know. but i have to be strong enough to not care. 

if this is saved, she'll pry herself away and be open and transperant. he'll be completely out of the picture, all the while ill be a stronger person. ill be the man she fell in love with again. ill be the best husband and father i can be because ive been working on my self. manning up, no more mr. nice guy.

but im terrified, if she does leave for ever. 17 years gone. and a son that will ask why things happened. and i cant lie to him. its just completely heartbreaking.

im just facing a little self doubt and fear right now...you will all have to excuse me...


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## lordmayhem

elph said:


> you know what just occurred to me too?
> ill be heading home soon. my wife has therapy on tues. night, so the plan is on wednesday to give her the letter im working on. to expose those who need to know. basically dropping a bomb of my own. to confront the man face to face whos been messing up my life.
> 
> its probably the biggest risk ive ever taken.


I wouldn't recommend confronting the OM in person because of the risks involved. For one, it may escalate into violence. Another is that he will probably lie to you anyway. And if he is married, it will give him a chance to spin his story and lie to his BW about the A, and tell her not to believe you because he will say you are crazy and a liar.



elph said:


> itll either drive her away further. right into his arms. and the love of my life will be gone.
> 
> or save my marriage.


It's very common for the WW to leave in a huff on DDay because her A has been exposed. It's usually not for very long once reality hits her in the face. If OM has been exposed to his wife, he will throw your wife under the bus. OM rarely leave their wives. If your WW leaves and is thrown under the bus, and realizes Mr Wonderful isn't leaving his wife for her, she will beg to come home.

More than likely, she will want to cake eat. Having the security of her M and enjoying her A with the OM. 



elph said:


> but id be lying if i said i wasnt scared. ****less.


This is a normal feeling at this time. But you must overcome this fear. I know, it's easier said than done.



elph said:


> i know i cant keep dealing with this. watching her have the affair, and the lies and how she misses him so much and loves him. all while she thinks i dont know about this.


You must be in agony because you are living in LIMBO. Watching how she is giving her heart to the OM is a terrible thing to witness. 



elph said:


> but im terrified, if she does leave for ever. 17 years gone. and a son that will ask why things happened. and i cant lie to him. its just completely heartbreaking.
> 
> im just facing a little self doubt and fear right now...you will all have to excuse me...


Fear of possiblity having to lose all that you have invested is normal. You've invested a lot of years, a child, and finances are possibly entertwined. Or the other choice is you can share your wife with the OM, knowing that she will have sex with him and give him her heart, and that she will eventually leave you for OM or find another OM who she will be able to leave you for.


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## Eli-Zor

Lordmayhem unfortunately this wife is planning to join the OM, they have a line of communication open and he is divorcing his wife, hence Elphs wife believes she has a place and OM to go to. The OM's wife is aware of the affair. What we need to do is work out a way to support Elph in breaking the wifes infatuation and ruin her fantasy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

A couple of things to help bolster your morale and courage. The meds she's taking don't take months to work. Unless it's litium or some other blood level build up med, the effects are within a week to 2 weeks max. From that standpoint sheis already starting to think a bit more clearly. Don't discount her comments that she wants to stay with you. If she didn't feel that way she would withhold those comments just like she withholding I loves you and touches. Let those comments give you hopwe that she's truly understands what's best, she is just having a difficult time beleiveing te alternative or staying wwith the OM is not greener and that you haven't already hit your limit becuase of the closing down and lack of contact your giving her. This is the part of the 180 - shutting down and not communicating that I beleive has a short term effect and eventually it pushes them away becuase she sees no hope or safe have with you. This si why I'm advocating opening the lines of communication so you can give ehr the sense your not gone yet, start to try and rekindle her love as well as letting her know your there for her 100% if she will just break contact. It willl make that option a hell of alot more attractive to her. On the other side of stnading your ground and stating your limits, lifting the shade and making her see the reality of the other option which is separation first and D soon to follow - she willfind that it is ugly indeed for her and not what she wants to happen. This will give her the strength to pull back and go NC It has to very real and show her the fulll effect of D. That is why laying out custody and visitation - her biggest fear of not being there to kiss your son good night or see him in the morning will have a HUGE impact on her. You won't be cutting her off from him, but the reduced contact will force her to examine a lot harder what she is doing. The second part of stating what it means financially to her by listing the payments she is expected to maintian as part of her continued support forher son and the commitment shehas already made to help with house payments, running expenses and child support as well as her car payments and credit card charges and the ost of another residfence or apartment- this will put her directly facing the reality for what her decision means long term to her financially. SHe will be broke, will get NO support from the OM and will be shocked at his response if she does ask. The grass on the other side will suddenly look totally burned out full of obnoxious weeds - not the greener pasture she is envisioning right now. A HARD dose of reality. Once my wife realized I would not suport her financially and how tough it would be for her, and lastly that she would be losing completely open and continuous connection with our daughter becuase I would not let her remove her from the home and the stability it represented - she turned very quickly. I did not want separationand told her it was the last thing I wanted to do because I felt it doomed the marriage. I specifically told her that no matter what I was not throwing the towel and giving up. I could not however be int he same house with her knowing she was still in contact and seeing him. I would break if that continued. It was a serious risk becuase she had continuously stated she was done and wanted to move out. Once she saw the ramifications of that decision staring her in the face, she decided it wasn't what she wanted and came back, started NC and transparency, we started in mC with value in it becuase she was ready to commit and she started seeing a psychiatrist who was also a therapist, got on meds and truly started working on herself and trying to completely understand why she did what did and confronting her guilt and remorse.

Again, I didn't want separation at all and especially not D and she knew it- I was not begging or pleading, just firmly stating my position and showing her I was the end of my rope. Decide or be gone. WHile your wife may decide it's best to end it, if she does she is actually already there now. I never had to pack her things or have her looking for an apartment - she knew what those costs would be. Packing her things was the next step and I had put a time period in my mind of 2 weeks. Not being viscious or angry or intimidating - just stating the facts clearly to her and leaving it up to her to make the choice. She complained that it was unfair for me to expect her to pay 1/2 the mortgage and upkeep becuase she wouldn't be living there. I calmly responded she made that commitment when she signed the mortgage with me and no choice but to continue splitting the payments until it was sold. I offered her the option of me deducting the monthly amounts from any profits on the house after the sale - but I was not going to eat her half. Again this was her decision and that was her responsibilty samewith her apartment costs and her car payments and insurance. Part of the deal was to set a payment schedule and separate out credit cards, bank accounts and all online charge accounts. She againbalked and asked if I didn't trust her. I told her that was unusual question in light of the fact she had given me no reason by continuing in contact. How could I trust her not to go off the deep end, clean me out and go on a cruise or trip to Hawaii? I couldn't risk that and she was giving me no hope or reason to trust her.

SO, facing the reality of the situation she was in and where it could ultimately lead was not intended to intimidate her and i told her that. It was just the reality of where her behaviour would lead if she continued.

I of course prayed and held my breath she didn't make the wrong choice becuase it was not what I wanted. But I also took solace in the fact that if she didmake the wrong choice, it was going to happen anyway and I had done all I could possibly do and huge amount more than most other men would have. Come whatmay, I was prepared. Behind all this was a review with my lawyer which I also told her about and a plan for a negotiated divorce to keep the lawyers from eating all of the money both she and I would walk away with if we used separate lawyers and it got ugly. Again, seeing I was prepared and serious left no doubt in her mind she had to make a choice. With your wifes recent statemtns to you, I'm very confident she will make the right one. Then you can start to work on getting her better and both of you healing.

Just my two cents - I think shes ready and just needs the reality staring her in the face and the gloss taken off the OM and A and where that will lead in the future and she will jum pff the fence and back into your arms.


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## elph

Lord mayhem. If I confront him itll be at his workplace. So there's no fear of retaliation. And I went to the ex. Just waiting for her to do her thing. Eli and years. I appreciate the comments and support. Your keeping my head o. Straight and focused. When I get home from Bangkok my mother in laws gonna giv me an update on the weekend and where her head is at. Plan is to give letter on wed. And then make all the necessary communications. Well see how that plan goes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

What's in the letter? Have a plan for care of the kids if she moves out.


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## lordmayhem

Eli-Zor said:


> Lordmayhem unfortunately this wife is planning to join the OM, they have a line of communication open and he is divorcing his wife, hence Elphs wife believes she has a place and OM to go to. The OM's wife is aware of the affair. What we need to do is work out a way to support Elph in breaking the wifes infatuation and ruin her fantasy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see. This is a situation where IF she was in one of those OW forums, she would be starting one of those "Happy Ending" threads where her MM is leaving his wife and she's going to go and move in with him. While the other OW in the forum are giving their congratulations. Sick, I know.

What I've seen in a lot of stories like these, then she is still going to be in contact with Elph, giving him hope, while the reality is that he is the safety net in case her relationship with her OM goes south. She'll also be on the emotional roller coaster and the very worst thing he can do is to chase her, beg and plead with her. We saw that with Lands thread. He tried to be so nice, he even helped her move out, continued to keep her on his health insurance, tried to date her, send her flowers, worked on her resume, and found her a new job. All to no avail. 

This wife is very deep in the fog. The way I see it is he needs to do the hard 180 and keep contact with her to bare minimum, email only about finances or kids. He needs to show that he is not the back up plan, that he is strong and attractive, and is moving on. Then let reality of her situation with OM hit her in the face. OM has been able to show her only the best side of himself, thats why its been a fantasy and not reality.


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## 8yearscheating

I agree with modified 180 based on what I described - it lays out the reality of the future and her options very specifically and is not begging or pleading. I don't agree with cutting off contact. That allows her to ignore him very easily and not face what this is doing to him or the reality of where it will lead. If that was going to work, it would have by now. He needs to make that relaity a hammer blow to knock her off the fence, not draw back and wait. If she has made up her mind, it will be clear in her response. The longer he waits the more entrenched she will become. Like I said in the other thread, don't play games, be direct honest and open just as you want her to be. Don't allow her to hide in the fog. Tell her she has a safe haven with you and you can work through it together. Leave the door open to the correct choice and discussion so you repond to her fears. Don't let her bury herself in them and stay in the fog.


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## 8yearscheating

I'll ad to what I said by saying ELPH has to make this decisions based on his own heart and gut check and what he can tolerate. If he feels staying his present course is right for him and her, do it. If he can tolerate waiting, do it. Keep working on yourself and listening very carefullly to what she says because even though she may be painting their past and him with a black brush, there are tidbits of what left her open to this. Change what you can and make yourself the better choice. Your call completely and not me or any one on here should drive your decisions.


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## Eli-Zor

It was Lands thread and the similarities therein that caused concern hence my statements that Elph's child is not to move out of his house nor ever see the OM . He must fight for primary custody, the finacial pressures as expained by 8 are good suggestions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

I agree Eli and they should be part of the seperation agreement along with rules for how and when she can come get the kids. He shouldn't have to write his life or the schedule for the help he gets caring for them to be jerked around based on when she's not with the OM!

I am such a crappy typist - boderline dyslexic in that. I have to go back and clean up my mistakes everytime.


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## elph

8yearscheating said:


> I agree Eli and they should be part of the seperation agreement along with rules for how and when she can come get the kids. He shouldn't have to write his life or the schedule for the help he gets caring for them to be jerked around based on when she's not with the OM!
> 
> I am such a crappy typist - boderline dyslexic in that. I have to go back and clean up my mistakes everytime.



U guys are awesome. I just landed this was the first thing I did. 

My plan is give letter Wednesday. Call OM mom. Text wifes friend then confront OM at workplace. 

Hardcore 180. Using plan B from surviving the affair

Read no more mr nice guy. And the N. U. T. S. books this weekend. Feelingstrong and empowereed. U guys have also helped tremendously. 

Saw a txt from heb to friend that they she wants to book a hotel room for lunchbreak tomorrow. Don't k ow if theyre gonna do it but she made mention of a long good talk with him that she looovvveeedd. My blood pressures rising. 

She has a therapy session tomorrow nite. Like it matters. She so in the fog it's scary. 

Heck I'm scared I'll lose her forever. I can't believe the stuff

As well as giving her the letter I'm going to give her all the texts I have since d day. If she changes phones it doesn't matter cuz I won't care. They'll be no point in chasing her. She's gotta come back to me. 

I'm going after his job screw it. I've been nice he's been told to back off by others. Now I MAN UP and do what should've been done inthe first place. Just very civil like. I'll keep u updated n thane for the advice guys n gals
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

I would confront her now, don't tell her what you are doing next , cancel and take her off the credit card and move all monies. She can't afford a hotel room if she is paying half the bills nor can she afford a new phone. Do not let ber know how you got the information.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

well she already kinda knows how because thats how i exposed her on d-day. with copies of the texts through the monitoring software.

i do this, ill show her all..all the lies and the sneaking.

like how i went to a dr.s appt to deal with a possible enlarged heart, and shes telling me how she loves me and were a team, while at the sametime texting him ...shes gotten goood at comparmentalization. 

as well there are text from him that im going to use to confront him, and that i sent to heis ex.

and that i see where her friend becomes an inbetween for communicaiton while theyre on the DL. 

andd where she leaves her normal time for work, but then texts her supervisor that she overslept and comes in an hour/ hour and a half late because shes with you know who...



i want to bring it all to the light of day, no more BS..


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## Eli-Zor

Suggest you let the supervisor know as well , it is time their lies are exposed.

There is nothing wrong in telling him you will fight for your marriage and family and will make his life hell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

so ive had to put this letter and exposure thing off till next wed.

i know people will say that i should just do it, but i need maximum impact, everything to happen all at once. 

the letter/texts. the call to the OM mom. the texts to her friends who helped. and the confrontation with the OM at his store with out my wife around...as well with the right people at the store so they find out too...TOTAL SHOCK AND AWE.


my wife will probably hate me, but thats kinda the point i guess, itll make it easier for me to 180 her...

but its funny, yesterday, they had some sort of break up...and get back to gether...ive seen this happen several times...


i think the OM mom was getting nosey, and while i think he still deflected things, she probably told him to back away until things with in my wifes life gets sorted out (like her decision to leave) but hes a mommas boy and i think whe he told my wife she didnt like it too much....


though last night i told her, that that MoFo has nothing on me. ive hit rock bottom and can only go up from here, ive learned what i did that impacted our relationship and im fixing it.

as well i told her there are a million women out there who would love to be in her place. house, stable job, beautiful healthy 3 yr. old boy. a husband who loves her...they make movies and shows about this stuff...


later she says what if shes making the biggest mistake of her life..
i told her theres only one way to find out..but there is no guarentee that ill be around when you figure that out....

now i just need some hot chick hitting on me at the right time to get her jealous...

today, i feel empowered again, tomorrow might be different, but one day at a time...


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## 8yearscheating

Update Elph?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

well lets see if i can sum this all up

tues. afternoon i contact HR, let them know about affair and that theyve been using company resources as well as hes been using his ability to schedule his dept. to make it easier to work same hours and days WHILE denying other employees hours. i follow that up with an email letter i got from another site by a memeber who works in hr as a lawyer.

wed morn. i leave work put letter in drawer to text her to look at it at the right time(when im gone) 
the letter is about howi realize all ive done wrong, ben willing to work on it cant stand lies cheating etc, most importantly we can no longer be friends because i told her any relationship with him, none with me...

go to work. Call the OM mom , leave voicemail send text. that same text is forwarded to my wife 20 in later.
tell her to read letter.
send text to best friendcoworker whos been helping.
text to 2 other girlfrinds who may or maynot know

go to job. talk to her supervisor (who knew alot) 2 more male coworkers.
then talk to store manager to tell and hopefully protect.
she texts and apologizes to OM mom for getting her involved. texts OM to say sorry will leave him alone (yeah right). apperently OM mom has known whats going on. 

get call from best friend who apologizes to me and didnt mean to get wrapped up. just wnated to be supportinve.


i go to family law appt. to get info on legal separation .

shes mad, hates me etc goes to friends house for a bit to breathe. comes home and goes to sleep.


she goes o work and finds out most ppl have found out. dont know yet of any repurcussions on OM yet. she went to manager of store to talk to directly. she apologizes for me bringing it in to the stoer. he said its not me who brought it in, it was her...


so right now and for the forseeable future shes angry. not speaking to each other..playing it by ear.
gonna be nice but avoid her

will be ready to file if necsasarry but for now well see how it goes


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## 8yearscheating

I hope it works out for you. While your waiting think about how she feels about what you've done. I know you feel justified and believe it was the only way to bring reality and it may have been. Put yourself in her shoes and be prepared.


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## elph

so my wife is getting her own phone and plan today...

her affair phone if you will, she says its because her friends wont text because they know her phone is bugged....

it just seems like one more step to trying to be with the OM. yet we did full exposure..

i just dont know, kinda bummed because i didnt know shed actually do it...

thats definitely the wrong direction if she wants me to trust her...

she just seems like shes so full of absolutes right now..

"like i know he doesnt trust me, so why fight it"..or "he says hes done with the marriage, so ill just go in my direction instead of going, wait a minute whats he doing he saiud he always be there"

agian i know its the fog, but still...


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## elph

and not 30 sec. after getting the number transfered into her own bill, she starts texting him...


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## 8yearscheating

SAme thing happened with my my wife 2 weeks after d day. This is precisely why I don't believe in the 180 as written. Set the criteria for getting back together, tell her you still love her and want to R. Leave her the option of that and then tell her if you continue in contact, you will move out. You will make your your own car payments and insurance, we will have separate bank accounts and credit cards. You will pay me 1/2 the mortgage and home expenses until the house is sold or I will deduct from you share. I won't pay for an apartment or your expenses while your cheating. If you continue, I will file in two months (or whatever time you want to set but set it short for her). Get a lawyer, get a seperation agreement and discuss how to do a one lawyer divorce. Lay it all out for her. The part I don't believe in is cutting off all contact or pretending to be done. That allows them to think he's done so I may as well continue - I want out anyway and makes it too easy.

Make your own mind up. DO what you think is best.


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## elph

well it seems we are done.

i lost it tonight
she cahnged her phone to her own plan but they wouldnt let her get a new phone because she was 11 months left in contract, so she had to keep her blackberry, which is still bugged.

so not a few mins. after getting the financial responsibility transfered, she started texting him..hi handsome, missed you...love you so much...

so when she got home i lost my ****...i told her about the text, essentially giving up everything..said some things i shouldnt have said, which blew plan a right out the water...how i m done and i dont want her in my life anymore...that kinda stuff thats been building up and you say in anger...

i wish i hadnt said some things but its to late now...


do i think we can fix it still. yes, but with a lot of work.

do i still want her. yes, because i know who she is at the heart of the matter...

but who she is now, i want nothing to do with,,,

ill try to get the balls up to file for legal seperation this week,,,because i dont beleive in divorce..itll sent her right into his arms. but it seems taht where she wanted to be anyway, and nothing i could do could change that,,,

exposure didnt seem to deter them, i can only hope HR can transfer him, or better yet, fire him...but i cant maker her want to be with me, so she loses me...like she cares


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## Eli-Zor

You are doing OK. Plan A includes the stick and zero tolerance of adultery, The steps you are taking are some of the many you will take , one item on its own does not stop the affair. She is in the height of her fantasy and will come down on her own time. Her being angry is good, her emotions are going to start causing her no end of pain. 

Your plan is to tighten the screws on her deceit. 

Filling for legal separation is an option as long as it is used to ensure she pays half of all bills, your son is never to see the OM and stays with you. Do not compromise on your sons wellbeing.

I suggest you call the OM or his mother again and re-enforce you will be fighting for your marriage and will not tolerate is intrusion into you family. Let them know you have and will provide evidence to his wife and that it will affect his divorce and custody of his children. 

Turn up the heat. Go to the doctor and make sure you are in good health, east good foods and breathe, this is but the beginning.

Are you able to access her full contacts list on the phone?


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## elph

Eli-Zor said:


> You are doing OK. Plan A includes the stick and zero tolerance of adultery, The steps you are taking are some of the many you will take , one item on its own does not stop the affair. She is in the height of her fantasy and will come down on her own time. Her being angry is good, her emotions are going to start causing her no end of pain.
> 
> Your plan is to tighten the screws on her deceit.
> 
> Filling for legal separation is an option as long as it is used to ensure she pays half of all bills, your son is never to see the OM and stays with you. Do not compromise on your sons wellbeing.
> 
> I suggest you call the OM or his mother again and re-enforce you will be fighting for your marriage and will not tolerate is intrusion into you family. Let them know you have and will provide evidence to his wife and that it will affect his divorce and custody of his children.
> 
> Turn up the heat. Go to the doctor and make sure you are in good health, east good foods and breathe, this is but the beginning.
> 
> Are you able to access her full contacts list on the phone?


her contacts were synced to the computer so they are also in my iphone...i know most of the people she works with too, and have started to talk to them about whats going on, getting the truth out there, about it and me.

but im angry now, and i see that fueling me to get away, because im tired of dealing with this.

i still love her ,but i will not tolerate it...by the end of the week im hoping to file separation papers...if she wants to be with him, then go.but get out of my house, im not going to watch this..

as for contacting the OM and OM mom..i may have to try again,well see.


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## Eli-Zor

There is a template that can be used to expose the affair to friends and asks for help protecting your marriage, it is written in a way that the recipients cannot accuse you of being controlling, scan my posts , if you cannot find it PM me I will check in the morning.

Be calm, do see a lawyer to cover your bases, don't tell her what you are doing and when ready enact your plan. Everything is fluid at the moment and up in the air , take your time you may not realise it now but you do have some advantages over her and a way forward, she will not be thinking clearly and in her foggy state will say and do things she will regret later on. How old is your son?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

He is three. As well she stopped wearing her ring a few days ago. So despite what's been told around her store, she's probably telling people our marriage is
over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seeking sanity

elph. I'm going to go against the advice here: Stop fighting this. She doesn't want to be married. You are living based on what you want to be true, not what currently IS true. She's in affairland, and you've made your best effort to shake her loose. Waiting and hoping keep you stuck. My wife was in affairland for a year. We separated. I moved on after 4-5 months of hoping things would change. It wasn't until after a reconciliation and another 1 year separation that she finally began to be the woman I married. And that only happened after I was dating others and fully expecting to get divorced. 

180 is for you, not to try to control her or the situation. What can you do for yourself to get some control over your own life?


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## elph

thank you eli and sanity..

looks like i have no choice but to file, just so i can try and get her out of the house, so i dont have to see this happen..
the 180/plan b seems like the only course to go...


not going to lie, the idea of him spending the night, or them going on regular dates out in the open sickens me, her wearing the clothes she wore for me, all the little special things we used to do and the plans we had...makes me just want to roll over..

but i have a precious little boy who needs me and i cant fail him. im scared to be a single parent. im scared to have this get dirty.

but i have no choice...


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## seeking sanity

elph said:


> not going to lie, the idea of hi, spending the night, or them oing on regualr dates out in the open sickens me, her wearing the clothes she wore for me, all the little special things we used to do and the plans we had...makes me just want to roll over..


Yes, that part of it f*cking sucks. It's very difficult but you'll get through. The little ceremonies of lovers that we feel are special and unique to us are hard to let go - clothes, places, routines. 

The one thing to remember is that you'll eventual meet another woman, and you get to go through all those things again too. This is not a death sentence. You get to have a new life too, after you've grieved. And it could very well turn out awesome.


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## 8yearscheating

Make it real tough financially and legally - make visitation and rules concerning contact for your son with oM till the divorce is final very strict. USE A LAWYER NOW! Set an end date to separation and discuss how the divorce will proceed according to your attorney NOW. The reality of D is your last chance. Start keeping a log.


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## ahhhmaaaan!

"do i think we can fix it still. yes, but with a lot of work."
-Dude, are ****ing kidding me. She's checked-out, bro. I really feel for you bro, but you're in some kind of fog yourself. You need to kick her ass out and move on. What is it going to take- Her making a video with him and sending it to your phone? Enough already!


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## elph

well,

i have an appoitment with a lawyer tomorrow to start to file for legal separation.

i don't want to do it. Lord knows i dont want to do it. but i need to get her out of the house. i can't sit back and watch this affair much longer. the lies and the deciet.

i love my wife more than anything. and would do anything to get her back. but in her current incarnation, thats just not what i want or need. as well, i can have my son put in such an uncomfortable position.

i thought i had the strength to wait it out. i know i do. logically. but the emotional side has taken its toll. its been 3 months since i found out, and have determined its been going on anywhere from 6-9 months..

the omw seems to think he'll lose his charm after a while, and his true colors and problems will shine through.

i hope shes right.

so its the plan b/180.

ive been getting stronger. "rebooting" my self if you will.

ill be a better person for who ever comes next.


and if me and my wife figure this out. itll be a much better marriage than ever before...











f**k this hurts.


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## 8yearscheating

I know it does Elph and you have a LOT to be proud of having held out this long. You don't deserve the way she is treating you. Head up, stay the course and hopefully she'lll wake up the reality hits her. I started this process right away and I know how hard it is. In my case it got my to come back, I hope and pray it does the same for you. You don't need to follow the 180, no deceit and play acting. If it's going to work it's becasue she knows you still want to try but won't tolerate having your heart torn out. She neds to know your a safe have and the better choice not that you've given up by pretending you have.


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## elph

The only thing iv. Given up on is the ability for Anything to happen while the affair is going on. I don't give up on her. But I've given up on the situation. If she truly is out of love with me. That's one thing. If our marriage was that bad that's another, but it wasnt we just didnt communicate the right way to each other to solve our problems. But nothing can be done while the fog is there. I know my wife is a good person. She's just made some really bad selfish choices 

I thing she's in there. But there is no hope with it right now. As well I can tell the bastard OM is starting to feed her info and such. She's bringing up words and topics that are completely out of character for her. I knows he's manipulating/controlling her. I've seen this before when she was in an abusive relationship when we broke up this guy is also starting to pit her against her family in order to break her away from her support. 

I'm not looking forwardto this. But it's a win win. So there's that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

i have not been dealing with this since last sept. i have determined its been going on since them, give or take a few weeks. i found out late feb. and instead of lashing out in anger i tried to keep an eye on the situation and learn all i can about affairs and try to deal with them.

has every decision i made been perfect. no. and i dont think youll find one person who has been perfect. 

my wife is actually not a cruel woman, shes quite the pacifist and hates confrontation. i have a very good grasp on the type of person she is. shes a good person who made a very bad decision. 

the kicker is if it was a bad marriage, it would be fixable, however, byt hte time that got determnied that things werent great, the affair was already on, so trying to get through that hsa been damn near impossible. 
she refers to me still as her best friend, something i have thrown aside, i have told her that he and i cannot exsist in the same universe...and there have been times where the affair stopped, she seemd to be reaching clarity, and then a couple of weeks later, he draws her back in.

she says shes numb from out relationship, from things i did or didnot do.ive looked back at those things, all of which are easily changeable(and alot of it was nitpicking really). and some was just me not meeting her emotional needs. i get that, life got the best of me and turned me from the loveable happy go lucky guy i used to be to a stressed out bitter dude with a chip on his shoulder...and there have been several other friends who have also told me this...

for the record i have filed for leagal separation, not because i want to, but because i dont want to watch this anymore...

is this situation hopeless. no. not at all.

i know my wife, i know what shes become. the change is in it self such a 180 turn...and ive seen this before.

when we broke up for a bit when we were younger, she started dating a guy...nice, sweet, treated her well, etc. later found out he had problems with alcohol...also found ou that he abused my wife....she would leave him and stay at my place, then a week later go back to him, then a while later that cycle would continue...that happened for several months.

the way my wife is acting now is very similar. all her responses to anything are text book fog. and alost of the way shes handling her self is just like back then...

thats how i know whats going on...

sometimes growth takes a process, and its not easy..if i could just kick her out i would, but i cant, and thats becauseof the law..and my son...

not everything is as black nad white as it seems...


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## 8yearscheating

Loverluvya I'm glad you know everything there is to know about two people from a few posts. I have to believe your marriage has or is ending. Not everyone's does even after a long separation. Believe your crystal ball is severely tainted with black paint. Elph knows what he wants and it's not your business to try and drive him away from it. This site is supposed to be about support. I believe Elph is a bigger man than someone who follows what others say to do. That takes real determination and bigger kahoneys than someone who follows advice like a lost puppy.
Stay the course in what you believe and want Elph!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

so heres the update as of today.

this weekend my wife saw i transfered some money to cover lawyer costs into our joint checking account. she asked and i tolder her, just one day early, that on tues she will be served witha standard petition for legal separation.

she started getting emotional, mostly confused as to what to do and what about our son, and a little shock to the fact that i did it.

i told her i didnt want to, i never wouldve imagined it, but she left mw with no choice. the affair is continuing, she chose him over me and our family, so i wanted her out sooner than later.

the rest of the day was a little talking. she was trying to goad me in to saying i would always be around. when she ends up hearbroken, or falls flat on her face. i just let her know i wouldnt be there to see if that happens.
while at target getting stuff, she asked if i would help her set up. i told her why would i help her if iwas the one who wanted her to stay, thell tha fker to help u.

she gave me some foggy lone about how if she would do it over again, she wouldnt get married, as a general rule, because they say marriage changes people. i told her kids change people,i suspected her change of view (she used to be very much into marriage, loved every moment ) was based off of hiding from the promises and guilt of the vows she took as well as being sa hindrance to being with ths OM.

she went to her girlfriends house to blow off steam (confirmed) and came back with a little attitude. meaning she talked to him and hes continuing to get his claws into her. im sure hell tell her exactly what he wants her to do. and itll get dirty. 

but im at the point i dint want to see this anymore..
so we start this process. and i keep trying to be the father possible.


oddly enough my thereapist was telling me on thurs. that shes worked about 2000 cases where infidelity was the theme...of those, only one got married. and they divorced a few years later..

everything is all foggy drug induced BS. so if i love i let her go, face reality, and hope she comes back pursuing...if not, well theres me and my son...


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## StrugglingMan

Good for you for filing. Stay strong Elph. No matter what you need to take care of you and take care of you son. Hit that 180 and let her twist in the wind.


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## 2xloser

I bet you get more and more comfortable about being without her once you're really _without_ her, too. 

Good for you for finally saying enough is enough; it's been a long time coming. Onward to better things for you.


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## ArmyofJuan

elph said:


> oddly enough my thereapist was telling me on thurs. that shes worked about 2000 cases where infidelity was the theme...of those, only one got married. and they divorced a few years later..


I think it's about 3% that actually marry their AP and the divorce rate is around 75%.

80% of people that get divorce during an A say they regret the D 2 years later (I think it was a Cosmo poll a while back).

She has no real future with the OM, it'll most likely die in 3-6 months once you are out if the picture. The AP can never live up to the fantasy the WS has in their head once it becomes a full blown relationship.


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## Saffron

So sorry elph, but I'm glad you're staying strong. Take care of yourself and focus on your son, you're doing the right thing. If my H was still wrapped up in the OW, I'd have to separate too. If I find out he's lying and still seeing the OW, I'd have to separate. Living with constant betrayal would take it's toll, so at some point one has to let themselves find happiness again. With or without their DS. 

Happiness should'nt be dependent on another person, so it's okay to choose to be alone with just your son. Someday, if the fog lifts and she comes back to you, make sure it's what you truly want at that time. I couldn't imagine the devastation of reconciling yourself to living a life apart, then letting the DS back into your life, only to have them leave again. Be careful and remember it's okay to put yourself first now. Do whatever improves your chances at finding peace and happiness. I wish you well.


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## Eli-Zor

Do not tell your wife any more.

Everything you do is to keep her off balance, she is now forewarned and the OM is guiding her. 

Keep quiet, smile , you are now implementing the art of war and she and the OM are your foe. The less intel they have the better, work to obtain independent evidence that helps secure your son.

Move the all monies to your account, she can't stop you and only if this goes to divorce do you have to share it out.

When it comes to the separation agreement the payment she makes includes all existing bills that are common and committed to mutually when you were together i.e. utilities, mortgage etc.

Hang in there this is going to get tough.


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## elph

i thank you all for the support.

it is tough. we all know weve never imagined this when we got married. its even harder when you know that your with the perfect person for you. 

ive never relied on my wife for happiness, shes always been icing on the cake, the way she balances me and completes me. the way weve grown together. i see this now more than ever. ive taken it for granted, but its too late for that chapter now.

my job is as a father, a role model, and a friend to my son. at some point, i hope we can become a family again. but right now, she doesnt want that.

the kicker is, as i learn, improve, and grow. i become better. elph 2.0 if you will. if she thought i was a good husband and father then, then boy she'll be missing out now.

and he, well, he just cant hang. 

ill update as things progress, and thank you for helping to keep me strong. i appreciate all opinions and strategies from people whove been through this and know what it takes to succeed.


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## elph

i know this sounds a bit odd...

but since informing her of the separation, shes gotten a little more touchy feely lately. noothing major, by no means. just touches of the hand or shoulder, or resting her head on my shoulders when were on the ground playing with my son.

she knows i told her i want her out sooner than later, that this legal move was made because i can not stand to watch, and will not tolerate sharing my wife or the affair. not because i wanted to do this, but because i had to do this.

shes talked about possibly her not needing lawyer, as mine could do all the nescasary paper work...

i dont know what any of this means, but i dont talk to her much at home except kid and house stuff...keeping it as limited as i can.

some days im thinking she actually wants out of the marriage. she hasnt been wearing her ring, but she never made and has addmitted to not even looking up, any legal maneuvers.we havent had any fights in a while. mostly because im kinda of avoiding her...but at the same time i find by sheer accident, myself doing a plan A again.

but then i hear the fog babble. and now shes late on her DMV renewal, one creditor is calling and another is starting to send notices...to me it says her focus is completely off...

i know that would be a good sign for me because that means when she moves out, reality will hurt that much more...
ive tried not to think about it, but i was looking at a calender and realized that if/when she moves out, ill mis her birthday and our anniversay for sure before the holidays 


any other perspectives or opinions?


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## Eli-Zor

Don't let her deceive you , her actions to you are all part of the cake eating. She is feeling uncertain but not enough to stop the affair, as for the lawyer fight for full custody , if she hires one the only compromise is shared custody and zero contact for your son with OM, your son stays with you.

Sadly I think your wife has a long way to fall, with the OM controlling her it may take a while, be prepared his could take months to years. 
Let financial reality settle in and move her out, please do not underestimate your position as long as you retain your son in your home and legally ensure she agrees no contact between your son and OM you have a distinct advantage.

She is still in la la land and thinks you will be around when she leaves , shatter that dream.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

but how do i keep no contact with the OM. ive heard about a morality clause for not having my son an the OM over the same night, but after that, i dont know...same with the family. i can keep them from baby sitting, but anything else?

california is a bit loopy with the laws here.


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## 8yearscheating

Talk to your lawyer about it.


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## ahhhmaaaan!

"resting her head on my shoulders"- Dude, you're waaaaaaaaay too nice to her. Didn't you say she came back with "attitude" after talking to scumbag? SHE'S STILL TALKING TO HIM!, and you let her snuggle up to you? O think YOU'RE in a fog, my friend.


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## elph

ahhhmaaaan! said:


> "resting her head on my shoulders"- Dude, you're waaaaaaaaay too nice to her. Didn't you say she came back with "attitude" after talking to scumbag? SHE'S STILL TALKING TO HIM!, and you let her snuggle up to you? O think YOU'RE in a fog, my friend.



actually she rested her head on my shoulders...i looked down and gave her a look, and she walked to the other couch.

only to sit there sulking a bit...stewing in her own juices.


today she was nice early in the day, but her and her mom got into it and i got the after math...

we started talking about money and how it woul dbe split even ly, then she brought up a amount that we used to buy our house, how it was left to US from her late uncle. she basically said that i mooched that money off of her. we used it to reduce debt an dput a down payment on a house , all while we were married. and i mooched off of her. 

now not only do i know shes in a fog, because money has NEVER been a big issue to her, but i know the OM is feeding her crap, esp. with a line like mooched. the only mooch my wife knows is the coach/commentator. (one of the reasons i loved her)

she then went on a tirade. called me a horrrible husband, a fee other things. talked about setting up a schedule for our son, and i laid down the law about the OM and the OM family. i am not going to waffle on those and ill take it as far as the law will allow me. 

and shes finallt started looking for a place, though i check the internet history to see the places that may be a bit too much for her, but whatever..her prob, i just reiterated she needs to get out sooner than later.


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## Eli-Zor

If she agreed the money she inherited was to be used on the house then she has no individual claim on it, your lawyer will back you on this. As far a the morality clause it can be written if she does cause contact between the OM and your son she then automatically gives you primary custody, again a hard nose lawyer will help you. As she is isolating you and her family if this is used correctly by your legal team it can help obtain custody of your son or at the very least place inhibiters on her and the company she introduces him to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

SOmehting i wrote on another thread that may help you.

It is too soon for you to make any serious decisions about whether to stay or go. You are still in state of shock and may feel completely differently after some time has passed and you see how he reacts to boundaries and expectations of him. Most disloyal spouses (DS) have a very hard time facing themselves and their guilt and often make comments about the marriage or the loyal spuse (LS) as being the reason why they had an A. Things like, not enough sex, you are not attractive, issues in the marriage you thought you had worked through on and on. The paint the marriage with a very black brush to justify their actions in having the affair. Keep in mind this is normal for a DS, wrong but normal. They can't accept responsibility yet. The other thing they will do is shut down answering questions and tell you to just get over it. Again, they don't wnat to face they have done and don't want to face the guilt and yur pain by discussing it. Both are completely the wrong way to start you on the recovery path. That is where you need to place the boundaries and expectations that you need to heal. Listen to the teleseminars and DON'T bury your feelings or allow him to avoid his. IF he doesn't figure out for himself how became so vulnerable and understand it, it will happen to him again. If he doesn't face your pain, fears triggers , etc. he will never understand how what he did effected you. You need to work through those issues, some on your on and a lot with his support. Forgiveness comes from looking forward and seeing him doing the actions AND words to help you heal. Also from transperency without you forcing him to do it. He needs to do it ofhis own free will and desire to reconcile. NOTHING can be forced or it useless. Make a list of what you need to start to build confidence, trust and love for him and discuss it openly with him. Explain that needs to his decision and his effort - you are not forcing him but it is the only way it can work for you. He needs to man up and facethe music and work necessary. You should NEVER attack him for what has happened. If you can't speak calmly and state the facts without starting with you did this or you made me feel this way, walk away and calm down. SAying you made feel useless with your affair is very different than saying when you ahd your affair it caused me to feel unattractive and like you didn't want me. The difference is you are owning having your feelings and not blaming him for them. Then suggest a way that he can use to better state his feelings and not cause you pain. Like " when you said I never supported you, it hurt because I feel like I really tried. Youa re right, Iw as not as attentive to your eneds as I should have been and I will try to be more attentive to your needs. You can help me by making sure you let me know you feel that way. You can also help me by not blaming me for your affair because of of marital problems. That was your decision alone.

Saying this way instead of " you screwed up, don't blame me for your affair" does two things, one he doesn't get defensive and draw back. Two, you have given him some guidance on how to avoid hurting you again without it being an attack. The last one will keep him opening up - you always need to thank him for being honest no matter how bad it hurts. Going offwill only cause him to withdraw and avoid being honest.

Slow and steady - no decisions. Give it time. DO only what you are comfortable with when it comes to cuddling and making love (not sex). Don't be fake - be open and honest.


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## 8yearscheating

Also, go listen to this and listen to some of theother teleseminars on this site http://beyondaffairs.com/MP3s/TS-2009-June30.mp3

Beyond Affairs Teleseminars


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## elph

well she started looking for a place to live. she was in tears yesterday because she realized she wouldnt be able to afford as much as the though or was used to, and may likely have to settle for a 1 bd, instead of two.. she said though , that it didnt change anything...


but i have a question. we were getting ready to go to a previous event, an dmy wife said to me that i looked nice. stupid me started asking a few questions, some with a sense of humor...

i made the mistake of asking the all to common, "do you think im still attractive and do you think the OM is more attractive"
my wife gave me a hell yes, followed by a no way, 

i made a joke about what i should put in my match.com profile. and then she said soemthing interesting, and this is where i need help. my wife said, just let your girlfriend know that im your best friend and she have to deal with me.

my wife still thinks well be friends after she moves out , but i dont think well even be friends.

the question is
a.is all that fog talk?
b. based off that snippet, do you think shes truly checked out, or if she just setting thing sup if/when the affair fails.


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## lordmayhem

elph said:


> the question is
> a.is all that fog talk?
> b. based off that snippet, do you think shes truly checked out, or if she just setting thing sup if/when the affair fails.


Yup. Definitely fog talk. I read that ALL the time. Some actually think they can be friends after all this, heck, some of them want you to be friends with the OM/OW. :scratchhead:

Watch Part 13 & 14 of Soulmate Shmoopies. It's a pretty good example of this.

Soul Mate Shmoopies

And many want you pining after them, ready to take them back in case their relationship goes south. It boggles the mind sometimes.


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## ArmyofJuan

elph said:


> i made a joke about what i should put in my match.com profile. and then she said soemthing interesting, and this is where i need help. my wife said, just let your girlfriend know that im your best friend and she have to deal with me.
> 
> my wife still thinks well be friends after she moves out , but i dont think well even be friends.
> 
> the question is
> a.is all that fog talk?
> b. based off that snippet, do you think shes truly checked out, or if she just setting thing sup if/when the affair fails.


She's most likely bluffing by being aloof because she thinks you are bluffing. When you actually start dating it will get her goat good.

My wife did that same thing and acted like she didn't care and even told me to have fun on one date when we were separated and she was seeing an OM. She text me twice during the date and drove by my house at 3am to see if I was home.

The date sucked but she was 10 years younger and the W was not happy about it.


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## elph

lordmayhem said:


> Yup. Definitely fog talk. I read that ALL the time. Some actually think they can be friends after all this, heck, some of them want you to be friends with the OM/OW. :scratchhead:
> 
> Watch Part 13 & 14 of Soulmate Shmoopies. It's a pretty good example of this.
> 
> Soul Mate Shmoopies
> 
> And many want you pining after them, ready to take them back in case their relationship goes south. It boggles the mind sometimes.


Those were interesting, to say the least.

i know that i have time history and a family on my side when it actually comes down to our relationship vs. their relationship. and i hope my wife is at least somewhere acknowloging the changes ive been making that created the vunerability in the relationship to have the affair.

its just going through that period when she moves out. i know he'll be over there. shell move closer to work so that creates "opportunities", not to mention him sleeping over. gettin to enjoy all the benefits i have for the past 17 years. right now thats the thing that kills me the most. its the intimacy...y0u cant take that stuff back.

the trust. yes, we can rebuild that.
the communication. we can make it better.
the honesty and openness. we can focus on that to improve the marriage. 

but the intimacy. thats really hard, because with the exception of the year we broke up, since high school, its been her and me. there is a specialness that would be really difficult to patch up. mind you i dont really care if anybody sees my wifes body parts. she has on several occasions while drunk, flashed her boobs...no biggie. 
but the connection, the things we did...

thats eating me up. because we grew together, that we know each other so well because we taught each other and learned from each other...

that just gets my blood boiling.

i dont know how im going to get over that. i know its not about the sex thing for her..its mostly EA. but still.
as well if we get together, how do i fight off the hormones, and not let those and my emotions get thier wires crossed...


so frustrating...


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## 8yearscheating

Time to heal for both of you. If and when that process starts, the first thing you will notice is when her love for you returns in a way that is so strong it's like when you were rabbits after first getting married. You make it making LOVE, not just sex. Keep both of your eyes open and looking into the others. The love will help you to over come those feelings. it's strength will blow your mind. Keeping your eyes open and focusing on her and her love will prevent the flashbacks. But one step a time my good man. First you have to get her out of the drunken stupor affair fog. Where are you at wiht the lawyer and giving her a seperation agreement? With telling her your plans for D if it doesn't change soon?


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## elph

the papers have been served. she hasnt responded yet. im not looking for a divorce, simply because i dont believe in it...there is also a very good possibility that well use my lawyer for all the paper work stuff and try to decide everything through mediation.
since legal separation and divorce are basically the same thing thats where we stand.

she got a bit emotional about moving out...but at the same time shes committed to the idea. and i know she is still very much in contact with the OM. 

im trying to plan A her while shes still in the house, but at the same time trying to keep a distance. im being nice, but not oertly so...in other wards were not fighting, and handling house and kid duties together, but ive made it know im not her friend, and that me and the OM will not share the same universe.

i think reality has dripped in a little...but not enough. and its gonna be hard to go NC with the little man, esp. because of schedules and child care and such..

im hoping that the stats from MB are right, that 95% of affairs die a natural chance. 

all i need is a chance. 
to reconcille, 
to get my feelings out.
to show her that ive changed
to give her an opportunity to show me that our marriage means something. 
and to have a better marriage.

she has been complementing me more..and i think shes scared to move out n her own...at the same time im sure hes building up her confidance..

but if what the OMX tells me is true, he cant keep it up for long...

and here ill be, improving my self, getting to be a better man and father, with 17 years of history and moment and injokes and comfort right here, with demands and N.U.T.S in hand, being no more mr. nice guy,

but being a better person than she could ever imagine...


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## 8yearscheating

My heart goes out to you Elph. I remember the feelings you describe and the pain. You are madly in love as I was when I was at that point and really she's not deserving of it. I admire your courage and sticking to your goals and I pray for the right outcome. I'm not a religous person, but I started going to church every week and praying to god for his help - there are no athiests in a foxhole in war. It gave me some peace. I also a great brother in law I could talk to and confide in. The sounding board helped me keep my sanity. I wish I could give you a truckload of hope to get you through. Have you eliminated your monetary support of any kind and closed any access she has to your funds? Let her live the paupers life she will end up with. Don't jump if she asks for help. If she asks, tell her she knows the requirements for getting back together and you can't live as second choice. Stick to it, it will be or it won't. Unfortunately it's all up to her now.


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## elph

The monetary thing is tricky. Her "uncle" who is very pro marriage and pro family decided very recently to give us both decent sums of money from his trust. In 2 individual checks to help ease the transition for us and our son. Suffice to say that will make things a lot easier for my wife to pay of her debts and live off her paychecks. me as well. But of course I want her to struggle. So the monetary thing is now a moot point and I don't see her blowing through the money unless the OM mooches off of her. I basically have to rely on the affair dying a natural death and hoping she realizes that the grass isn't greener. 

As well I hope your right about the intimacy part. She still walks around the house naked or partial and it drives me nuts. 
I guess that will be a very long conversation when it does happen. If she sticks to my rules ( 1. Make me feel special 2. No feelings of second place) then it should make it easier. But well have to get past the question and answers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

oh got another one for you..

my wife text me earlier today...

"i am so so so so so sorry for the pain i have caused 
i hope that some day you can find it in your heart to forgive me"


i pretty much laughed when i got this. and when i got home late, she was already asleep.

im guessing this is more guilt ridden fogbabble.


i mean forgive her? without a. doing any work. and b. what is the state of our relationship.

the only way im forgiving her is if we reconcile.
there is no way im going to appease her guilt. and just forgive her so she can move on...

one day this will be remorse...i hope


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## 8yearscheating

Tell her that. Forgiveness comes with a willingness to try and work things out and be 1000% commited to doing that. Step one is NC with OM and letter from her locking that in forever. THEN you can start to WORK on forgiveness.


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## ahhhmaaaan!

Damn elph... your still trying after all this **** she puts you through. I think you might be a type of masochist, while she's the sadist in the relationship... really.


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## elph

I'm not really trying. I'm setting up the cards to fall where they may. Shell be moving out soon and so as much as it hurts still having her in the house I've adopted the plan a mentality. She knows how I feel. I'm going to be the cool calm steady dude that she know and loved till she moves out. She knows that him and I can't EXSIST in the same universe. So when she moves, I'm done till he's out of her life. Total plan b. With the 180 I've been doing thrown in. 

It is hard but I've also got a 3 yr old that I have to set an example for. And at the same time I've learned alot about where my responsibility lies in terms of what happened in my marriage. I also feel as if Ive grown as a person and am continuing to do so. This is an opportunity for me to become a better man, father and hopefully husband. 

And if not, well then somebody will be getting real lucky in the future. And if my wife gets her head out of her ass, then if she puts the work in, outlr marriage can be better. 

I feel freed up either way with having to take an honest look at myself and my situation. Going forward I can easily focus on doing mybest. Even when the days are hard ( and there are still plenty of those). 





Never say die.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Who is your son staying with when she moves out?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

if her world schedule remains the same, ill get him 5 nights per week. alot of out routine will stay intact. 

baby sitter comes over at nine till130. wife would watch from 130-530-6, i get home, shell leave. rinse and repeat. except for weekends, i get him sat, day. she gets him sat night sunday.

if she changes schedule, she gets him early week, i get latter...

but hell be with me mostly...


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## Eli-Zor

I would suggest you keep your son over Sunday as well, she is moving so she moves out alone. Your son being in his own bed is comforting, it is not nice for him to go to a strange place once a week. Develop a firm rationale like the one I gave you and work hard to keep him at home every day. It is her problem she is moving out , she knows what to do to come home again.

Document everything including her alienating her mother and aunt , talk to your lawyer for advice on what is required for you to legally have sole custody. Do not treat you wife as an equal in this , at the moment the affair is your enemy and she is on the side of the affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Does this uncle that gave the money know what she is doing?


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## elph

yes, he is fully aware, though i think shes with holding information from him, ive tried to clue him in, but hes frail and old and i dont want to put his health at risk...

that said, he is very much behind the thought of us reconcillling. and i think the money was as much to help our son as well...


he really just wants us to get back together, and i think he thinks hes creating an opportunnity...but its his money and i cant tell him what to do with it..


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## elph

something else.

he gave the money knowing shes apt. hunting, 

but these past 3 days or so shes been a trip.

yesterday, she mentioned that i can come over for dinner..i gave her a very solid no. she got misty eyed.

last night i told her (in my plan A voice) that im here to listen if necsasary and not try to fix if somethings wrong.(lotsa work stuff unrelated to affair happening) and she said for now. and i repeated for now, until you move out...she broke down crying then.

and then this morning, she flips the script and i mentioned the fact shes leaving, and the biggest problem i have is not her "searching for herself" but to continue a relationship with the OM. 
her reply. Not everything revolves around the OM. i just want to get better for myself. if i stay here im miserable. but if i leave i may come to an understanding that leaving may be the biggest mistake of my life...plus ive already said im sorry, what else do you want me to do...


yeah, because th words just magically erase everything.


if anybodys read surviving an affair, then shes in total sue mode...

i can tell shes looking to hold on to what ever, she even said that im going to remain her best friend even if i dont want to..i have no idea how that happens, cant i just say that your gonna remain my wife even if you dont want to?

she also got emotional about her saying that i can at least be civil if she texts about our son. 

i think shes coming to the realization that im dead serious about holding my ground/ setting my boundaries about our relationship...that i will not bend when it comes to her relationship with him, but i think shes also starting to feel that sense of loss because shes giving me up for him..

that said, she had a panic attack at work yesterday because of all the stress.

she says she wants to be happy, etc. but she (and the OM for that matter) is on anti depressants/anxiety meds. that doesnt sound like happiness to me..

as well i was reviewing those "emotional needs" from the marriage builders....looking at those at best he can be 3, tops...i can when back to "full strength" can knock em all out the park...


i just have to, as my therapist says..

"sit back and watch the show"


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## Eli-Zor

Hang on there, this will flow up and down , she will suddenly strengthen and it will appear to you as if all is lost . Plan B , a hard one - IM in place and a schedule you determine. Have you enforced she pays half the bills? If not amend the agreement do not allow her to have funds to sponsor the affair.

A tip if the OM's name has to be mention refer to him as xxx(OM's wifes name) husband and correct her is she calls him by name e.g you mean xxx husband. If she complains smile and say he is her husband should we verify that with his wife and children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

the thing about that last part is that he moved out a bit ago and theyre are still in the middle of the divorce....

which just brought up a trigger of one time when my wife said they went over to his house...


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## elph

Just a little update.

My wife got approved for an apt. the friday before fathers day. she didnt tell me till the monday after because she didnt want to ruin it for me. that weekend we went and did alot of fun stuff for/with our son. If you were on the outside looking in, you wouldnt be able to tell that there is anything wrong.
that whole weekend, everyday, with out fail, she asked me a variation of the same question.

"what if in a year, i realize im making the biggest mistake of my lfe, do you think....?"

theres still hope for us?
we could start dating each other exclusively?
etc.

i told her simply, we have to see where i am at too.
that i would love to reconcile our marriage, and there is always hope, BUT...

i will not be second place, and i will not be your back up plan.


it feels odd, knowing there is a finite time limit to whats going on, has made it extremely easy to do the plan A. ive been nothing but kind and courteous. ive been patient and listening. ive been doing my best to exhibit the changes ive made since learning about this and the things ive done to help damage our marriage. i havent been perfect, and ive let a few snarky comments slip through, and when i try to apologize for letting the anger slip through, she gives me an "i deserve it" or "i understand, you have every right to feel that way"

ive also been applying some of the principals from "no more mr. nice guy" and N.U.T.S. and have gotten a pretty decent reaction. im not saying she back to finding me attractive in that way, but shes started acknowledging some of the changes.

she gets the keys on the 1st. i told her that once she moves out, thats it. im not her friend. im her sons dad. and it will remain so while the OM is still in your life. ill help set up my sons room, because i dont wan the OM involved with that. and maybe a few other things. unfortunatly shell be coming over to take over for the baby sitter several days a week and get some of her time in with our son, so no contact will be impossible. but she know i mean business. 

odd little aside. i got her a digital frame one year that shell be taking. i asked her if she wants me to take off some of the photos (like the ones of me). she said no. i asked, wouldnt that be ackward when the OM comes by? she said she didnt care, its her house and she can do what she wants...

probably doest mean anyting more than cake eating while sitting on the fence...

but two months ago she said theres no way wed ever get back together, and she couldnt wait to leave.

no shes crying when signing the lease, and telling me how miserable she is...

hopefully by the holidays, this affair will "die a natural death"


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## ahhhmaaaan!

As long as OM is in the picture she's not gonna come back to you, dude... and yes, you still are her back-up plan. You need to move on... I mean really move on. 

" shell be coming over to take over for the baby sitter several days a week and get some of her time in with our son"- Why doesn't she just pick him up take him back to her place? Your still allowing HER into your home? She should stay at her own place- you're still giving her too much leeway. She has the best of both worlds- a refuge for her daliances with OM, and your home to act as if you two are still together(keeping up the charade). Take the pictures out yourself... don't ask for permission.


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## Eli-Zor

Elph.

You must find a way to keep her out of your home, she must not see this as ready access even if you have to place your son in formal child care. Do not give it a year, this time frame allows her and the OM to cement their plans of a happy future all the while she is in your home cake eating. Go dark very very dark and do what ever you can to isolate her from your son and her family. It is critical you isolate her as soon as and do not hesitate to refer to the OM as the bad man , your son while young must not be exposed to the OM trying to play step dad.

Do not fall into trap of waiting in hope over a long period , my suggestion is file as soon as she is out the house and work to a plan that takes six months onwards. I understand in your state you cannot file for adultery however you can state that her adultery with xxx is the cause.

No half jobs Elph waywards like a year as it gives them the transition time that they control , her in your house is an no no. If she has to drive back and forth so be it , do not compromise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

FYI : There are a few posters on TAM and MB where the wayward moved out and as they had a gentle time including not paying their share of the finances they gathered enough funds and support from the OM to finally divorce. Don't give your wife any leeway. 

An open question does Californian law allow you to to sue to OM on grounds that he has caused the marriage break up? Check with your attorney and also do a background check on OM , your looking for acts of violence or anything to cause a rift if your son is around. You may not find much , if you don't look you never know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

ahhman, 

she still lives at home. as for the pics on her digital frame, i want to leave them on there. so when the OM sees them he'll have me in the back of his mind..ive learned that hes a really insecure, controlling person (thans to his EX) so anyting to get into his head, the better.

as for filing, i have filed and shes doing her response this week.heck, thats whats getting her out of the house. The year thing is just her lease. her mom already told her that if she "finds herself" before the year, she can negotiate out of that. her therapist has said the same thing as well.

as much as id like to minimize her being in the home. our babysitter (her aunt) does it over at our house . all the toys, backyard, playstructure, etc. is here. and the aunt as muchas said there is no way on earth shell watch our son at my wifes plae so long as hes in the picture. the aunt will not drive our son over there either.
as it is we cannot afford formal child care, and my son loves his auntie. that will not change.
it is an unfortunate compromise, but for my sons sake, it is necsasary. My MIL and aunt in law have been there since day 1., and have been exceptionally helpful, they are also on my side and have pretty much pushed their daughter/neice away while shes involved with him. but they are also not going to keep her away from her son, but they are trying to keep it to a minimum. shell only get him 2 days a week under the current agreement. 

as for teaching my son that the OM is evil. i will start doing that, or i should say that was the plan all along. and even though my wife will be coming over to watch him (my aunt has an afternoon job, so she cant stay after a certain period, so there would be nobody to watch him), shell also see the changes being made to the house. i wont ask about her, but the redone bedroom should raise an eyebrow. she can see me making changes and she can worry. i am moving on, but there will always be achance if only for my sons sake.

that said, there are already some ****** in the affair armor.
her mom told me about her lst therapy session. the therapist said some of the things she described about him have raised some major red flags in terms of controlling behavior. the therapist aslo told my wife to tell me this when she was ready...dont know what that means...

but im going to go as dark as humanly possible for my situation. i wont ask or speculat about her life. she knows my stance. i get home. she leaves. the funny thing is, because of the way her schedule is,and the fact she has to come to my house eats up time. she wont get too much with the om because by the time she gets hooem, its basically dinner then bed most nights. and that doesnt even mention the OMs schedule (heich the ex has been more that happy to give me. shes even fighting during the divorce so her kids arent around my wife)

it sure isnt going to be easy for them, and sure as heck not rosey. the fantsay already seems to be fading a little. his true colors are starting to show.

as my therapist says.

sit back and watch the show...


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## 8yearscheating

I agree with ELi - she is still sitting squarely on the fence. No financial support, no access anythime she wants it. I also agree, get child care. If she wants to visit your son it should be on your schedule.


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## elph

There is no financial support from me. But we can't afford childcare. Her aunt has been nice enough to be doing this ever since my wife went back to work. We give her a fraction of what actual childcare costs in the bay area. This cannot change. Alot of what will be going on works around my schedule but alot is also done to ease the transition for my son. This has been universally agreed on for what's best for him considering the circumstances. She's also agreed to the stipulations concerning the OM. I'm limit g as best as possible but she has a right to her son and her son wants to be around mommy. 

The best bet there is when he's at mommys house and crying out for me at night ( which he does ) and she has to explain why I'm not there. 

She's also not getting access when she wants to. It's what's available. Between the hours of 2-6 4 days a week, he would be unattended. This works so that he doesn't miss to much mommy time and there's some one to watch him till I get home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ahhhmaaaan!

While I understand your childcare situation, I can't stress enough she not have access your house. As you can see, I'm not the only one who agrees with this. I know you have your son's best interest, but she's the one who's actually benefiting from this arrangement. If this can't be helped, then as you said make changes around the house- take down all the pictures with her in them; get new stuff replacing them with new things; make changes that removes her "touch" from YOUR house. I know it might sound cruel, but you got to let her know that you're moving on at the present state... you need to drive this home to her- she needs to REALLY feel it.


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## elph

ahhhmaaaan! said:


> While I understand your childcare situation, I can't stress enough she not have access your house. As you can see, I'm not the only one who agrees with this. I know you have your son's best interest, but she's the one who's actually benefiting from this arrangement. If this can't be helped, then as you said make changes around the house- take down all the pictures with her in them; get new stuff replacing them with new things; make changes that removes her "touch" from YOUR house. I know it might sound cruel, but you got to let her know that you're moving on at the present state... you need to drive this home to her- she needs to REALLY feel it.



now thats what i was thinking. very noticeable changes. Shes taking the bed and mattress. so the bedroom gets redone. and i upgrade the mattress.(if she does figure it out, its no loss there because i wouldnt want it back and its a bit older anyway,)
all pics of marriage stuff come down. repainting, etc. not just that, but other whole lifestyle changes, since i will be a single father. streamlined way of dealing with things. mealtimes, house work. where she will struggle to adapt, mine will be seamless, if not upgraded. it will seem (and in reality be) like i dont need her around to live my life. 

i know shes already starting to feel the impact of whats going on. 

but we all know its when reality hits her in the face. when she hits rock bottom, thats when change might occur.

as for me, ive already changed. ive already adapted.
ill keep interactions with her to a bare minimum. just son stuff. but im not going to ask her about her day, and wont respond when she asks about mine. i get home, she leaves. 

its not the perfect plan B, but there are just somethings out of everyones control, and when you have small kids, its damn near hard, because the last thing anybody wants to do is scar them. 


i want to save my marriage, but im no going to damage my son in the process. he comes first. and in fact that care i think shows up and my wife notices. 

the OM can fulfill 3 Emotional needs, AT BEST.

i can fill all 10.

and until she wants those filled, i need to focus on my son and me.


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## 8yearscheating

Good post Elph, you are doing the best you can and it shows. I pray she gets her mind back and hits rock bottom as soon as possible. Your devotion is valiant and courageous.


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## KathyGriffinFan

I agree w/others on here about letting her in your house. I'm not completely understanding what your wife popping into your home to watch your child has anything to do with her aunt watching the child. I get that the aunt doesn't want to go to your W's place because of the OM, but what is preventing your W from watching your child at her place. 
She's not going to get how difficult this is going to be if she still has a presence in the home.
How can she miss her old life, when she's always there?


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## elph

there are logistic problems for moving my son from my house to her house on a daily basis, and then me picking up him everyday. this is concerning all parties involved. the reality is my house is far better suited for the care of my son. on a multitude of levels, but those two days hes at her place shell have to cope. i see no reason why my son has to suffer unescessarily. i dotn want him bouncing around the place all day long. . now when he starts preschool in sept. itll be a different story. but right now, we all want an easy transition for him.

everything else though will be gravy. shes been sick the past few days, so i have been on the ball for the small things to help her out. trying to meet those emotional needs. she brings up the fact that this will only be this way till she moves out. and i let her know, in an unwavering voice, that it is true. i remind her that so long as he is in her life. i am not. 

again, based off the MB emotional needs list. i can do all 10. he can do 3 on his best day. reality is slowly creeping in. shes already getting frustrated at allthe stuff she has to buy for her place. 

as well, im not moving out of the house till the last minute (probably gonna have to go short sale), or at least till after the holidays.shes not to happy with that because it means itll mean ill still live in adifferent city than her. and as much as i want to move back to where she is. its better to eek out what i an at the house with the back yard and all.before i move back to an apt.


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## ShootMePlz!

As long as she believes or you say/imply that you will be there when she is done screwing around there is no incentive to stop. I know you told her you won't be her back up plan but she has to believe that what she decides now is it!!! Your posts about what you have said still holds out the possibilty once he is gone. Cold shoulder talk kid and divorce stuff only!!


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## ahhhmaaaan!

^This is exactly what I mean. I can honestly bet that when you move away(sell the house) she'll come back to you because she's spent from having all that fun with OM... but I guess this is how you want to deal with it, and it really is YOUR call. Whatever works...


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## elph

As per dr. Harley , it was re recomended to let the WS know thatthere is a safe harbor, IF there is no more affiliation with the OM. Its even supposed to be stated in the plan b love letter. 
When she moves out, contact will only be related to our son. It's not a perfect situation, but my intent is to let her k ow the affair isn't tolerated. And if she comes out of the fog, and if she wants to reconcile, there'll be work to do. She's not gonna get off easy by no means. There is a plan. And it is set up to protect me and my son. The byproduct will hopefully be saving my marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

I think your taking the right tact ELPH. I don't believe in the 180. I do believe in setting the boundaries, sticking to them and letting her know IF she goes NC you will be there for her. Some interesting side notes from the beyondaffairs.com website - don't give a laundry list of requirements to R util they say they are ready to. Otherwise you are presenting a tough situation to come back to when the OM is all happiness and no restrictions.


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## elph

8yearscheating said:


> I think your taking the right tact ELPH. I don't believe in the 180. I do believe in setting the boundaries, sticking to them and letting her know IF she goes NC you will be there for her. Some interesting side notes from the beyondaffairs.com website - don't give a laundry list of requirements to R util they say they are ready to. Otherwise you are presenting a tough situation to come back to when the OM is all happiness and no restrictions.


your right. i do need to keep my mouth shut. though nothing ive said is not common sense.

taht said, she has been the one to post the questions about dating each other, or if theres hope for us...when she realizes shes made the biggest mistake of her life...


though thats just fog babble...i have been doing my best to be cryptic with talks of the future...one thing is for sure, im not the one bringing it up...
i like the 180, though ive customized part of it for my own needs, but i do keep future talk to a minimum, and always reitereate that we dont share the same universe, and if in a year i am available.

i dont know what her expectations are of me, but what ever they are im gonna blow them out the water...


i know shes not in love with me right now....but shes gonna realize that im not becoming just the man she feel in love with, im better...which of course means 1 of 2 things.

therell be some lucky lady out there that will get a more mature and fit man,

or better me will be able to have a better marriage, if she wants to get better too...(amongst other things)


----------



## seeking sanity

Having been through this for a difficult and prolonged period, the sooner you start f#cking someone else, the more likely she is to return. It will also make reconciliation MUCH easier, as you'll have a counter weight to the horrible mind movies.

It's not on marriage builders, but it more realistic.


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## elph

i had thought about that. seriously.

but at the same time, ive decided to hold my self to a higher moral standard.

once the legal separation goes through. then its all fair game. but until then, im going to focus on my son and building my life back up....

plus i work near a MAJOR college, and schools out for summer.

i think ill always have those mind movies...itll be up to my wife to help eliminate them...and there are very specific ways she can do that...

that said, im not opposed to making new female friends. im just not going to do it in a way that will confuse my son. hes the most important person here right now...


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## elph

last night got one of the best comments from my wife..

after her therapy session last night, she asks me and she asked her therapist (who had no appearant answer) why ive been so nice to her despite all the things shes done. shes confused, and doesnt know why. i simply told her i want to enjoy these last days before she moves out. that theres no point in fighting or me being an ass, it just makes things difficult and doesnt set a good example for our son.

she obviously doesnt know im in plan A, but it seems to be working well enough. last week she was hung over from girls night out, i made sure she was okay. but when she brings things up, i re-enforce the idea that were not going to be friends and except for kid stuff i wont be talking to her.

as well, she noticed that i got one of those axe body scrub things (on sale so why not) she asked why? just told her they were on sale. but then she went on to tell me there is nothing that i need to change, or that she didnt want me changing like there was anything wrong with me. i got a good chuckle out of it to say the least


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## KathyGriffinFan

I dunno why every time I read this thread, it reminds me of HurtinginTN's thread, almost exactly...


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## elph

ill have to look over that thread later and see if there is anything different.
i glanced at it a few days ago, but at 33 pgs, ill need more time.

from what ive gathered, and i could be wrong. it seems shes still living with him. but again, i could be wrong.

my wife is moving out. im letting her go to live her life nad find her happiness. the only connection im planning on having with her is our son. that said, im playing the odds that dr. harley states that all alffairs eventually die a natural death.

ive seen them fight on text before. how he manipulates her and controls her and esp when they fight, how he changes the subject randomly on her. plus ive gathered an amazing amount of onfo on the OM from his soon to be ex. 

i dont think itll survive to be perfectly honest. and if shes listening to her therapist, she (the therapist) has already pointed out 4-5 red flags about him. 

i also think the loss of her family and 1/2 the time with our son will factor in.

if im a betting man, and knowing my wifes true character. id say bythe holidays if not shortly after, it dies. not to mention i called in to the harleys a week or two ago, and they said as to them both being on anti depressants, the bet was that will also contribute to it.

but i could be wrong on all accounts. ill read that thread and see...

until then, working on my fine ass self...


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## pidge70

seeking sanity said:


> Having been through this for a difficult and prolonged period, the sooner you start f#cking someone else, the more likely she is to return. It will also make reconciliation MUCH easier, as you'll have a counter weight to the horrible mind movies.
> 
> It's not on marriage builders, but it more realistic.


All that does is make an already horrible situation worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

i think what seeking sanity was going for wasnt the actual act of sex, but moving on with someone else, or dating again to get the jealousy juices flowing, and using that to make the WS open their eyes and realize that theyre losing the BS, or even the competiton juices going too.. i think somewhere i read that if I, for example, started dating a hot blonde in college(my wifes an attractive brunette MILF), that that would also up my desireablilty factor and make her think twice...


while not right, the theory is sound. 

as you can see hear, alot of guys lose our minds when our onea nd only lets us know were not their one and only. we men are competitve by nature, buti think women are too. and so it gets to them a well.

i dont think sex is the answer. but if i put up a match.com profile (asi have joked) it may get to her (and kinda has).

but an intimate act could completely backfire. thats while ill refrain while were still married. after that...


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## pidge70

I speak from first hand experience. Then again, every situation while similiar is definitely not the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

ill definatley take your word for it. 

i dont think my wife would respond to well if i started sleeping around.

talking to other women, sure.

after all, she gave me the,
"i just want to see you happy"
and the"if it makes you happy, sure" lines, 

in response to the old
"how would you like it if ijust started dating or seeing other women" style of question.

i know for a fact she would get jealous. but i dont want to play that card just yet. after she moves out and after a transition with my son, i may hang out with some women...


funny thing.
some of my friends are her friends. and they work together.
they are on my side and on the side of seeing the marriage survive. they even mentioned such a scenario, or even making up one when we hang out for beers. like a woman coming over and chattin with me. 

thisis after we move out nad shes watching our son, and i go out with them. they would be more than happy to relay a nights worth of info on my behalf to get her jealous, with out jepardizing things.


is it manipulative...yeah, kinda. but just enough to get those feeling stirring. no more...

anythoughts on this strategy?


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## 8yearscheating

It's been so long with her. Normally i would say no. But....what is the down side? Would it reinforce her belief your done?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seeking sanity

pidge70 said:


> All that does is make an already horrible situation worse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes you're right that it's a bad idea while he's in the plan A stage. You're wrong if she moves out.

Here's why:

Once she moves out, and assuming she continues to see other man, the more he holds to a position of "noble suffering", the longer she instinctively knows he's still available to her, and the longer he secretly pines for his old life back, keeping him stuck.

It's not worth it. It really isn't. It's needless suffering.

If he starts to date, explore other relationships, have sex, it does three things: 1. He's distracted from misery, which is nice to get a break from (because idealism does not help you cope through long, cruel, sleepless nights); 2. he becomes more desirable as the bloom falls off the other man rose; and 3. If they do reconcile, it gives him an emotional defence against the awful mind movies which, at least for me, was crucial for me to get (mostly) past them. He had his own experiences, which somehow makes it just a bit easier to take. Otherwise it is so brutally unfair and cruel, it is a permanent emotional burden that will take years to get okay with.

He is in a very long, difficult journey. Not only has been cheated on but he is being rejected by a remorseless spouse. It seems likely to me they will come back together at some point, maybe months or years from now, during which time she's still likely to avoid/deny/blame shift, so he's going to have a long period of time to wait it out, until the fog finally clears. If he goes the "noble suffering" route, that period of waiting it out is going to be some much worse than it needs to be. Plus, if he doesn't bolster his self-esteem, he's likely to take her back under non-ideal circumstances. If/When she wants to return to the relationship, if he makes it too easy, she'll treat him like sh*t again. Being involved, even casually, with another woman, gives him enough edge to hold his ground.

I didn't make the rules, but in this particular circumstance, this is most likely how it plays out.

Listen, I've read a lot of stories of noble men, who hold to their values out of duty, or religion, or guilt. And while people validate them with "good for you, I couldn't do what you are doing", really it comes out of repressed, self-hating codependent place. Healthy people don't choose suffering as a way to prove their love.


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## seeking sanity

elph said:


> thisis after we move out nad shes watching our son, and i go out with them. they would be more than happy to relay a nights worth of info on my behalf to get her jealous, with out jepardizing things.
> 
> 
> is it manipulative...yeah, kinda. but just enough to get those feeling stirring. no more...
> 
> anythoughts on this strategy?



It's only a bad idea if you are doing it to make her jealous. If you are doing it to actually have fun and actually meet new people and actually start to move on, then it's a great idea.

She wants out right now. Why not respect her decision, accept it at face value, and move on? Why the subterfuge?


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## ahhhmaaaan!

elph... you must really be infatuated with this woman(your wife) to be fantasizing about getting back together with her- JUST MOVE ON ALREADY... geez. Why do you keep punishing yourself by doing this... dude, she's ****ing another man right in front of you, and your WISHING her, alomost WILING her to come back to you. She's stringing you along, buddy... if you've made such positive changes and keep talking about moving-on with your life, then why can't you stop talking about ways to win her back. Either by dropping weight; by going out; by hooking-up to make her jealous- clearly you haven't moved on. I'm not telling you this to be a [email protected]#K... I'm telling you this because I don't want you to make a fool out of yourself... SHE'S ****ING ANOTHER MAN AND THROWING IT IN YOUR FACE. Am I the only one who sees this. I know the other posters want to be supportive and all, but I know this is what they're thinking... they just won't tell you. You need a REAL cold shower to wake yourself up, my man. It pains me to see someone go through this type of denial.


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## elph

I'll tell you, it was our friends idea to do the going out girl thing. They work with my wife and subsequently with him. They HATE him. They didn't like him before but now they want blood. They love my wife and our family. And they mean well, but in their minds creating a situation that is somewhat passive in getting her head out if her ass and hopefully on the way to reconcilliation would be ideal for both u's and for adding misery to him if she left him. 

And ahhhhhmannn. I understand where your coming from. I really do. But it's not that black amd white and not that immediate. When my emotions were running the show yeah. But in the past months I've taken the time to learn, to plan. I know whats going on with them. I've figured out they're patterns, I know all about the OM. 

Am I moving in in the hardcore tradition sense? No. But I am gradually moving on. 
Am I holding out hope things will work out? Yes. Not only for me but for my son. He deserves a whole family and I hope to give that to him. 

The plan a is working. I am seeing doubt in my wifes eyes. I know she's still texting him and talking to him. I also k ow my wife has told him to back off a bit while she figures things out. She's told me this and the fact that her therapist has said the same. The kicker is the aforementioned red flags that the therapists has seen from him I. Not really listening to what my wife is asking him. Does that make a huge difference? No. But it's a small splinter in her mind that could add up later. 

Also, shes moving out soon. The lease is signed and she's buying new furniture. After that it's kid stuff only. 
I won't ask questions. But I know her. It'll get to her. Our son will get to her. Shell hold out till the end of th lease maybe. But he holidays are huge and shell react from that. 

How do I know this? 
I've seen this before. 

Years ago we broke up before we got married. She moved out for 10 months. 3 months after she moved out she started dating her roommate. ( of 4 who lived in same apt)
She said alot of things to me during that time. How were best friends,She was finding herself, etc. I was furious that she started dating a new guybecause, well because I'm a guy. We were dating for 8 yrs before that. Eventually found out he was abusive to her big time. Emotionally and physically. He also cheated on her multiple times and was an alcoholic. . She would leave and move back, then go back to him. That would happen several times. Shed lie alot during that time to protect him.Her family acted exactally like they are now. And she couldn't get away. She was addicted to him. All the while she was acting and saying the same things she saying now. Matter of fact I have several cards she gave me during that time. You would think they're brand new. 

That relationship ended when he slipped up and I took pics of her bruises and called the cops on him. We got back to gather 3 months later. An did alot of that healing during the holidays. But we didn't heal right which I think lead to issues today. 

But suffice to say. This is all very familiar in the way shes acting. The only difference is he's not abusive. But he is as controlling and manipulative. She just doesn't see it yet. 

Knowing her when she's had enough, she won't k ow how to leave and shell rely on someone else to do it for her. She's to passive that way and has never broken up witha guy before. ( except me)

So it's not that I don't hear you. But my wifes patterns suggest that there is a chance at reconcilliation. And the best way to do that is if were both healed first then we can heal together. Shell have a lot of work to do before we can do work. But it's possible. Till then I'll live my life amd I'll probably date once thee seperation paper go through. Till then I'll continue to heal and learn. 

Buti thank everybody for the advice and it'll all be taken into deep consideration.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ahhhmaaaan!

You mean to tell me she's done this to you BEFORE? Oh elph... Oh elph... no wonder why she keeps doing this to you.

"Knowing her when she's had enough, she won't know how to leave and she'll rely on someone else to do it for her."- This says it all. You've ALWAYS been her back-up plan. She's a very selfish and immature person- You deserve better, my friend... your son deserves better.


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## elph

She hasn't done this before. As in cheated on me. But her behavior is similar in terms of being inanaddictive situation. She went through court appointed therapy after that situation because it was an abusive relationship. And I was by her side for it. The therapist related the backa d forth of being in the abusive relationship like being in a whol different mental state. Very simmer to the addictiveness of the affair she's now in. 

Back then we were legitimately broken up. I was there for her because I was also her best friend. A whole different set of circumstances. 
Is she selfish. Right now yes. She's totally text book. But she's not a selfish person. At all. And she wasnt then. 

Is she immature. Yes. Her mom raised her well, but was her best friend at times when she should've been a parent. Always getting her out o class when she didn't study for a test. Amongst other things. 
That's is partially why she's moving out as well. Per ther therapists requests, she needs to learn to take care of her self. To grow up a bit. That I understand. If we were separation because of her little mid life crisis or her depression. That ileitis be one thing. But were not. And in reality no better way to grow that witha strong support system. 

Did she see me as back up back then. Probably. Though I didn't realize it at the time. We had several reasons for breaking up and at the time it was mutual. We really were taking space so there was almost this feeling when it happened that we may get back together. 
You won't hear me argue that she has alot of growing up to do. 

But at the same time. I k ow the outcome of this story. It's just a matter of how and when. Of the 17 years seven been together there have been far more good times than bad. We broke up for that year to take space. And yes this stuff now is killer. But she is a good person but she is consumed by the fog. She is addicted. 

Till that ends, there is no hope. 

When that ends, it may be a different story. Or I may have truly moved on. But rightnow. Plan A all the way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

They wouldn't be using anybodies feelings. They'd be making things up. So nobody would be affected but my wife. I wouldn't use a person just to manipulate my wife. But if ppl want to make up stories on my behalf. Well ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

i also wanted to add that your right. until we are legally separated, it would make me no better than her.

ill make new friends, but i think it would go against my character and beliefs to become something i oppose. i know some people think i should and they make really valid arguments, but i just dont think itll benefit either of us while were still legally married.

but once seperation papers do go through, ill be motherfrickin george clooney


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## elph

in california, a legal separation is very similar to a divorce. and really the only differences are a legal seperation allows you to maintain insurance or benefits (like if you filling out paperwork) as well its set up for those who dont want a "divorce" for moral or religeous reasons.

other than that, the same for all intents and purposes. oh and you can not remarry unless you get a divorce. so i could date. but if my wife wants to view it as the other way, thats fine too. she, at one point was encouragin me to go be happy and find someone. i wouldnt , but its funny to me.

as well, from what i gather, the OM doesnt seem to understand that were seperating and not getting a divorce like him.and his has stalled thanks to the ex wanteing everything. but to my understanding as well, hes starting to get controlling and somewhat posessive. he's won the prize, now he doesnt want to give it up. but once she gets out on her own, the hunt will be over and hell bore of it quick enough...


hahaha, what a douche


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## KathyGriffinFan

@ ahhhmaaaan!, I get where you are coming from, and I'm a woman! Hearing Elph's story is very frustrating. Kinda like you wanna grab him and shake him, lol. I find it that when I read an experience like Elph's, I always question WHY would you want to stay with someone who openly cheats on you and your marriage. I then have to remember that this isn't being done to me, but it's very frustrating to read nonetheless, because when you know someone is being hurt, you want them to get as far away from it as they can, not putting themselves in a position to keep getting burned again.


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## elph

kathy,

i appreciate what your saying. but she is moving out soon. so theres that. shes getting what she wants. im letting her go to "live her life' and "find herself"

ill have other focuses meanwhile. i know it is hard to view, and it seems like im not listening. but im going with the odds here. that all ive read and people have told me about hte fantasy and it being not real and how affairs dont last and how theyre in a fog.


now when it doesnt last. and she comes out of the fog and realizes what shes done. then what do i do?


my answer is to try and rebuild my marriage and family.

but there will be no blind faith here. no easy reconciliation. itll take lotsa work on her part. and then itll take work on our part as a team to make it a better marriage.

3 months ago i was a doormat.

i am no longer. 
im stronger, more confident and sure of my self and the plan. 

she wont just get my trust, but shell have the opportunity to EARN my trust. and hopefully well have an opportunity to be a family again...







as well i hope i have an opportunity to drop off a NC letter right to him at work. in front of everytbody, letting him know that if he talks to my wife again, shell file sexual harrasment if he makes her uncomfortable....thatll scare him for sure...i wanna see him cry loke a little ***** (which i knw for a fact hes done...)


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## elph

just a quick update.

we went to our first counseling session for our son. the point was how to help him deal with the seperation. how to talk to him and make him feel that it isnt his fault and the right words to use.

it went well.

ive been doing my hardcore plan A. and its been working tot he effect that ive wanted it to. its casting doubt. shes been noticing the changes ive made. though i still have to convince her of the big 2. Stubborness and not listening. though i think its her when it comes to those two things and i only seem stubborn when she doesnt get what she wants.

ive been discussing everything with my IC. she pointed out that my wife probably haves a narcissistic personality disorder. 
"a personality disorder characterized by extreme self-centeredness and self-absorption, fantasies involving unrealistic goals, an excessive need for attention and admiration, and disturbed interpersonal relationships. "

from dictionary.com

she gave me tips on how to deal with it IF we ever reconcile. which is nice because it would help me understand her more and help her get through it, as well as her depression...


that said. she'll be moved out by the end of the month. and quite frankly its made plan A so easy. i know that the OM cant compare. as well, its help me become a better person for my self. i dare say im actually gonna kinda enjow being by myself a bit. its not ideal, but im making lemonade out of lemons here.
as well, my thereapist has been doing a good job at making me realize that im not competing with the OM. that hes competing with ME. that the only thing i should focus on is being the best me. 
she is also helping me to detach, or unplug, or drop the rope, or what ever you want to call it. and its another thing that is having an effect on my wife.

she even told a coworker (whos kinda keeping tabs on her for me) thats not only is she afraid of me meeting someone else, but she thinks i may have already.


and of course the icing for now...


the OM went to counseling with the STBXW. (who i talk to regularly.) he told my wife that the ex called him controling and manipulative. (which the ex confirmed). that shes starting to see why. as well she used the term inconsiderate about him, and wondered aloud (with a little help from me) why the ex hasnt fought for him after she got papers served earlier this year...and then she admitied that he (while hes supposed to be backing off while she sorts through things {i.e. move out}) had been "shooting himself in the foot" and "raising red flags"


i cant wait to watch her fall on her face after she moves out...


and when i know shes dont, ill make her wait a little longer..


as ive stated, im not going to be her back up plan, anybodys second place...

and now im not going to be her rebound after the affair (i read that on a nother website)



i still give her till the holidays.

but im feeling good. and shes not. 

the only kicker is that i can do a complete plan B, but thats because of our son...but ill do the best i can..let him meet her needs, which hell fail at...


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## justsam

> im not competing with the OM. that hes competing with ME.


personally i think this is some psycho-babble bull**** telling you not to feel bad about yourself. but if it hepls you.


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## Eli-Zor

Thanks for the update, if Plan A start wearing you out change to Plan B, Plan A is only for a finite amount of time.


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## elph

actually, plan A isnt wearing me out at all. when she moves out, i go right into plan B. i think its the fact that there is a a definite timeline that is helping make it easier. im not in limbo. i have a direction, a plan.

but to her its simply this. you move out, im not even your friend any more. im our sons dad. thats it. the OM is your new best friend, hes your new everything since hes so great and worth leaving me for. have him take care of you when your sick or when you have a bad day. or put your furniture together, or when something breaks have him fix it...if he already not to busy with his own bull. he and i dont exsist in the same universe. and if you ever get your head out of your @ss, then maybe, MAYBE we can see where i am and if we want to rebuild our marriage and family. but if he is still in your life in ANY capacity, then dont even bother talking to me, unless it has to do with our son.


and i feel okay about that.


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## 8yearscheating

Your doing great ELPH. I agree with your IC and disagree with justam. You are the better person, don't have the baggage of the OM and are definitely not competing with him - he can't even begin to touch what you had with your wife and could have in the future. Keep it up, your spirits seem high which is great.


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## justsam

sorry if i came off like that. i just went through some stuff like that. people telling me i'm not in competition with other guy, but deep down inside it wasn't registering. i didn't mean anything about you. it's just that it didn't work for me because i knew i was competing with him.


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## elph

dont worry about it justsam, i know how it goes. 

i know EXACTLY how you feel. 

for the past few months, ive measured my self up against the OM. in everyway possible. the physical, the mental, the intangibles. like i was at the relationship combine. 

i re-evaluated my whole relationship with my wife. i re-evaluated how we were intimate together. EVERYTHING. from the obvious physical things. height ,looks, manhood. etc. 
how i treated my wife, if iwas romantic enough. everything i did for th epast 17 years vs. what hes been doing since the affair started 7+ months.
no stone has gone unturned.


then my therapist and somebody else said a few things to me.

1st. stop comparing your self to the OM like a guy compares things. my wife isnt a guy and doesnt view it that way. plain and simple. when i tried to look at things from a female point of view, alot of things disappeared. one of those big factors was that my wife wasnt trying to leave. she mayve said it in the texts. but the reality is, im kicking her out. and shes going, reluctantly. so there is still somesort of attachment/love for me. wheni had ahealth scare earlier this year. my wife was by my side. sure she was comparmentlaizing her affair. but she was ther sheding tears. 

the second my counselor told me was that he would be comparing himself and competing against me. it maynot be obvious to my wife. but if im doing it, then its a safe bet hes doing it to. esp. if he really wans a relationship with her. its like a rookie WR comparing himself to jerry rice. the rookie is new and may make a splash, but its still nothing compared to rices career. 

im jerry rice. hes the rookie.

he cant compare.


plus ive shown his pic to a bunch of other women...they are all scratching thier heads...so that helps too.


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## justsam

> for the past few months, ive measured my self up against the OM. in everyway possible. the physical, the mental, the intangibles. like i was at the relationship combine.


this is exactly what i was doing. as men, we always look at our physical attributes- how i'm better looking, or how i'm more athletic- that sort of stuff. no matter whar anyone said i couldn't believe she _chose_ this guy to ****-up what we had. i did end up kicking his ass though, and told her to go **** off. i felt i was totally disrespected, and there was no turning back. i have to admit that it felt good to knock his ass out. i'm not a violent person persay, but don't push my buttons 'cause you will get you clock cleaned.



> plus ive shown his pic to a bunch of other women...they are all scratching thier heads...so that helps too.


this was pretty funny though. i'm glad you've progressed the way you have.


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## elph

Man do I wanna kick his ass. Amongst other things. And I know I can take him too. But I'm not about to go to jail and miss time with my kid 

Maybe later. If things turn out alright I may. But well see
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justsam

if he presses charges you'll know how much of a ***** he really is. most men who get their asses kicked for ****ing another man's wife don't press charges though. they know this is the consequence when doing these things.


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## 8yearscheating

Don't do it Elph. I have thought seriously and am right now because of a trigger for restaurant of all things where my "supposed friend" had his 50th. Told the wife it was a trigger and don't want to go where someone i'd like to kill had a party. Would like to turn the SOB into a woman with a 45 hollow point and watch him bleed out! SOrry for the trigger rant. First time in a couple of months.


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## 8yearscheating

Going to the range at 9 AM tomorrow to burn off some of this frustration. Guess who my target will be!


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## elph

Triggers are all good. We all have them. 

And justsam, any honorable man wouldn't press charges. But this dudes a coward and a little *****. He talks tough but when confronted lowers his head and turns tail. He's already done it once. 


One day I'll get my chance. 
Also I want a chance at his family. The mom ESP. I've seen her texts to my wife. I see where the OM gets his personality. 

I should just post his phone number and let ppl vent on him. If we can't get to our own OM, we should be able to lash out at others , 4chan style.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

I'd be happy to. My numbers blocked so they can't see who's calling. Write a script if you want to. Would love to unload on your dirtbag for you. Same for your wife!


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## 8yearscheating

I'll tell him I do vasectomies with a 12 ga slug! I can shoot the nuts off a fly at 25 yards with a 45 so he should be no problem! He won't hear a 30-06 at 1000 yards - he'll just be a bag of **** on the ground. Better yet, I'll use a 50 cal 2000 yards so I can watch his head explode like a watermelon and his body fly fly 30 feet self propelled! Watch your back boy, you'll never see it coming! Ought to have his a$$ a quivering bag of fear in no time! For the wife, what kind of **** have you crawled in bed with? He's worthless and has 3 other stupid wenches just like you! Glad you like sloppy thirds and all the diseases that go with it! ASk your dirtbag to marry you and watch how fast runs he runs to the next state!


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## 8yearscheating

Of course, I'll expect a few to the OM's wife telling her he's still at it with someone else and one to him warning him I'm looking for my chance to make his nuts explode! His Ford truck will have seat warmers he'll never forget!


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## 8yearscheating

No phone records means no charges!


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## elph

Haha. I like your style. Mayb I will figure something out. Or start a while new post. The vent on someone else's OM thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

soooo, i kinda made an oopsie today ?

i went by my wifes soon to be place to drop something off because i though she might be there running errands and cleaning up...

and lo and behold devin is there, i mean the OM.

and even though i keep repeating to my self, drive away, drive away...i park.

head up to her apt. and knock on the door...

he was sitting on the floor eating lunch. i power past my wife and kick his food and tell him to get the F out. he starts saying (and repeating throughout the enounter, its her place its her place i dont have to leave)

so ii get in his face...little 5'6 1/2 me to 6'2" him and he backs away..my wif had to get in between us...and shes telling me to leave, and that ****y bastard just has that smirk on his face and he picks up the phone to call the cops. so i naturally kick it out of his hand. ( yes i kicked it..it was pretty awesome)

and he keeps repeating the same thing all while walking away from me...

she eventually tells him to leave, and he goes down stairs and calls the cops anyway.. my wife is frustrated and scared becasue she is moving in and doesnt want to disrupt her neighbors...

i keep trying to calm her down so she can listen to me tell her that hes won, im done and ill leave her alone till she moves out....

the cops come (one lanky white one one bulky black one) and the OM gets the lanky one, i get the bulky one...that is to say when i saw them i knew who they were because they used to come into starbucks when i worked there...

so i tell them what happened and the whole ordeal and that i know the law and such, and though i never layed a hand on him, i know they have a job to do. and he kinds laughs. he tells me basically that theyve seen this before a hundred times...and if he didnt have teh badge on him, hed let me have at...but it becomes a simple little procedure where they gather info...i dont know what the OM tells the lanky one, but again hes got that smirk on his face..

the lanky one comes over and talks to me how hes gonna get a restraining order...i inform him of my side...the lanky one tells me also how its an F'd up situation and that i got close to getting arrested. i told him i would accept responsibilites for my actions like a man. the lanky one says that hes sorry and that ive got to watch my self. while he would have no moral qualms about feeling the way i do and reacting, that i ve got to be smarter...i got the sense that the lanky one did not like the OM . that he could tell he was trying to play the role of the innocent victim and manipulate and control the truth of the situation..
the lanky one told me that if he does file a restraining order, just turn around and file one back. that itll effect him just as negativly as what he may try and do and that i should inform his employer that one is put into effect so i should let them know when i shop there...

the OM left. my wife calmed down. she wasa embarassed and ashamed...she got caught between two people and she didnt know how to handle it and couldnt make a choice . she kept telling me she was sorry so much and that she was going to tell him to leave her alone. and not bother her and that sehs done withthe whole situation.


i dont believe her, and i dont care...shell be out soon enough, and to be quite honest...


I FEEL AWESOME!!!!

i feel like there is a weight lifted off my shoulders.

i didnt hit him like i wanted to, but i didnt back down despite the physical disadvantages...

and he turned in to a snitching little coward. i showed him i have no fear. and if she wants to be with a little boy like that, then fine...

i kept telling her that he won. he got his little prize (words told to me to use by my therapist) that i hope he worth all this, because ive had enough. 



sure it wasnt the best way to handle things. sure i should have drove off. 

but even though i went for the short term rewards vs. the long term goal...i did what i needed to do.


and i told my wife that while i apologize for making a scene nd disrupting her neighbor. i dont apologize for getting in his face. and i dont apologize for stading up for my realtionship...and if shes angry and leaves for good. then fine.

oddly enough today she was going to file her response, and during the situation she told me angirly that she was gonna change it to divorce...

i asked her if she did.

her response..."no i wouldnt do that ive done enough"

and she still wants me to go to disneyland next week with her my son and the inlaws.

luckily im off to bangkok sat. till tues an then she leaves wed til sun and shell be out by the 3rd...


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## 8yearscheating

I'm glad you controlled yourself...ROFL! You've hit the mark where come or go your OK and that is a good feeling. Hold onto it and let the cards fall where they may. You may find she is honestly changing now because she has you to hide behind...snicker. She can tell him to get lost or might be back! Do file a restraining order if he does. Or better yet, ask your wife if she wants to file one for herself against him - a perfect way to keep him away.


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## elph

im holding her filing one if/when she decides to reconcile...that may be part of the condition of the NC letter. since they do work together...

although i found out from a co worker who i told this that my wife told her (with out any prompting) that the OM told my wife he may put in or has put n for a transfer and my wifes response was negligable at best...

it seems that shes been telling her coworker how hes been messing up and what ever...



and to be perfectly honest with you, seeing them having lunch on the floor together kinda killed off what love i have for he at this point. im sickend and disgusted because i was able to look this mofo in the eye again a drealize what an ugly cowardly F he is, and that shes thinking of leaving me for him!!???

im not saying that love cant return...but to be frank, shell have to bring it out of me, because its hiding and protecting itself....

i mean seriously calling the cops? when nothing really happened. i wouldnt be suprised if he said i was being violent to her, just to make himself look better....like hes some kind of knight in shining armor...


well that ****s all rust...


damn now im getting fired up again...


----------



## seeking sanity

Please go no contact with her. Remove yourself from her drama. Stop speaking to her. 180, 180, 180. Get a life of your own, new friends, hobbies, go on a date, go on a trip. Shut her down.

This is such a negative situation and, having been there, it is so much better when you remove it from your life. Expect to divorce. File the papers. Turn your mind to a new future. 

Escape from the BS man. It will consume you.


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## elph

seeking sanity said:


> Please go no contact with her. Remove yourself from her drama. Stop speaking to her. 180, 180, 180. Get a life of your own, new friends, hobbies, go on a date, go on a trip. Shut her down.
> 
> This is such a negative situation and, having been there, it is so much better when you remove it from your life. Expect to divorce. File the papers. Turn your mind to a new future.
> 
> Escape from the BS man. It will consume you.


weve already filed for legal seperation, she filed the response today...she moves out aug 3. 

thats all done...

ive been in plan A for the past few months and for the most part, its having its effect.

the plan B is coming, except its LC because of our little boy. the 180 has already been happening, also having an effect. she questions all the new clothes, or the waitress hitting on me sinday at outback...


honestly..all the plans tactics and strategies ive been doing, and its all goin off with out a hitch..today and the confrontaion made me feel great because i got to stand tall for how i felt and what i feel, and he acted like the coward i knew he was...


I AM AWESOME!!!


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## morituri

Elph,

Are you going for 2 years of Plan B?


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## Eli-Zor

You did what you did and hey, direct confrontation often works she can see him for what he is. She knows you know he is at her apartment and she will be rattled for a while, the drama add to her pressure, let the folk at work know of the confrontation. 

Every bit of pressure builds up on him and her and causes stress.


All you need to do is if he files counter file and see who your wife support, the man who loves her, the father of her child or her POSOM. 

Never look back with doubt , you did what few men would do , no regrets.


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## elph

Thank u Eli. 

And morituri. I'll plan b for as long as I think is necessary. Really I'll giveit a year. That's the holiday and a few birthdays

It won't be a perfect NC. But it'll be as close as I can get. 

And I agree about the stress. I told he that what love inhale left is being replaced with anger and she flew of the handle. Ou of fear I believe
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

I. Hate. Autofill.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

just an interesting update from last night/this morning.

2 things my wife said to me.

as we were talking about the incident.(and mind you this doesnt change her moving out and such, these are just interesting notes)


1. the OM was PISSED that shes not going to file a restraining order against me. he still will, and ill counter file and have it dropped off at his work in the middle of the day so people know what kind of coward he is, as well his soon to be ex wants to use that to help with her custody battle. He was hoping she would to further drive a wedge between us, and he thinks im unsafe and such. as well i found out he wasnt happy that i was laughing and chuckling with the police officers...

2. and kind of off topic.
my wife wonder why when i got out of the shower (or have been) covering up. i had no real reason, i just did. but she all of a sudden noticed. as well she mentioned how shes noticed the changes in me losing weight and getting in shape. she especially noticed it when i confronted him. she said i "puffed up " (like im fish or something)

i said i mayve, but i ts also because he shrank under the pressure of confrontation.



doesnt change anything, but then again...


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## 8yearscheating

Positive thoughts my good man! Grin at his stupidity!


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## elph

why thank you...

wither way i feel good.

im sure IF hes telling anybody about anything theres no way hes coming off as an innocent victim...hes a coward with all the world to see.

my only regret is that i didnt launch into the script ive had in my mind for the past month or so...but whatever.

i got it out of my system...


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## 8yearscheating

ANd I'm sure it feels damn good!!! Come what may, I think your wife will wake up!


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## elph

out o the country right now, but a few minor updates.

shes been out buying minor odds and ends for her apt. but shes been texting me how much misses me and hopes im okay while im away.

but talked to her coworker/friend/my spy.

apperantly she went up to her and told her about the confrontation. she said that she had never seen that side of me. her friend asked how. my wife responded with me getting loud, agressive and physical. that i "puffed up". her friend got a very strong impression from that conversation which makes me wonder if "manning up" in a very physical manner may turn the tide. 

after all, the OM has been able to project confidence and leadership in his VERY controlled enviorment of work with minimal effort. something i think made him look very appealing to her along with the manipulation of our marital problems. but i took him out of his confort zone. and he folded. im sure that hes pulling the whole "im a better man for not fighing" line. and under most condtions to me that would be the correct stance. but in this instance two things strike out at me.
a. the natural consequences of his actions he couldnt own up to like a man and instead ran to the police. 
b. a better man simply doenst go after a married woman. period.


as well the friend told me thatmy wife let her know that the OM HATES me. like a give a flying rats ass, but i think its great that im under his skin now. i went after his family, his job and him. successful or not, ive made this a war. he may win a battle when she moves out, but ill alwayswin this war, whether we get back together or not. but ill be ther in the back of his mind when she moves out. and though i wont be in any real contact, he wont know that. hell have to be reassured, because he knows shes leaving my house reluctantly. the pressure will mount. and if he still files the restraining order, then my counter will do enough damage, esp if can put my son in that.

also, a couple times before my wife leaves for work in the morning, ive caught her on my side of the bed just sitting looking at me. and friday she actually told me that shes gonna miss me (which is to be expected, cake eating or not)


but just another change ive seen in her.


more as it come.


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## 8yearscheating

WIshing you the best of luck E!


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## purrhotstuff

Elph, why are you still waiting on her to decide your future? Why are you so reliant on her decisions? She's off having an affair in your face, yet you still hold out hope for this? 

I ask this as respectfully as I can, but why is it not better to just end it and be alone ?


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## elph

I'm not nescasarily holding out hope. She is moving out and I am focusing on myself. 

But at the same time. I still love her. She's still the mother of my child. And I don't believe that she's 100% into him. I know my wife better than anybody else. I know she's still in the fog and I know the statistics work in MY favor. But she's gonna have to learn the hard way the grass isn't greener. I'm not accepting of this. Thata why she's moving out. She isn't doing it by choice. Same with the separation. She's using my attorney to take care of business. 

What's that tell u? 

By the holidays the affair should be over if I know her. She needs to grow up as is and this will force her to do it. 
After 17 years I know I still want to spend the rest of my life with her. But not while the affair goes on. Amd when it ends well have a lot of work to do to fix it. But it's possible


For once I'd like to be one of the success stories here. After all that's gone on I think it can happen. Alot of people wonder why I still hold out hope or deal with it. 
It's because that's what I do. 

I'm sorry for those whose marriages don't work out. But I have no desire to be part of that group and I think our marriage will eventually survive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Your patience, strength and sense of direction shows real character and integrity Elph. I'm also glad you are standing up for what you believe in because, as you know, there a LOT of people on here on here who believe it's not worth it. I'm glad to see you are stating your position and not doing what others are suggesting if it's not what you believe. I felt the same way despite an extremely huge amount of my wife's indiscretions, history and results - 20 years, three men and a daughter that is not biologically mine. I still loved her and knew I could whatever it took to get through it. It's a hard road but very rewarding as it progresses. Here's mud in your eye my good friend!


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## purrhotstuff

elph said:


> I'm not nescasarily holding out hope. She is moving out and I am focusing on myself.
> 
> But at the same time. I still love her. She's still the mother of my child. And I don't believe that she's 100% into him. I know my wife better than anybody else. I know she's still in the fog and I know the statistics work in MY favor. But she's gonna have to learn the hard way the grass isn't greener. I'm not accepting of this. Thata why she's moving out. She isn't doing it by choice. Same with the separation. She's using my attorney to take care of business.
> 
> *What's that tell u? *
> 
> By the holidays the affair should be over if I know her. She needs to grow up as is and this will force her to do it.
> After 17 years I know I still want to spend the rest of my life with her. But not while the affair goes on. Amd when it ends well have a lot of work to do to fix it. But it's possible
> 
> 
> For once I'd like to be one of the success stories here. After all that's gone on I think it can happen. Alot of people wonder why I still hold out hope or deal with it.
> It's because that's what I do.
> 
> I'm sorry for those whose marriages don't work out. But I have no desire to be part of that group and I think our marriage will eventually survive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All in all, she's with this other man. That's what have read in the last few pages of this thread. I say that as respectfully as I can, as I don't know you personally. 
Through out the thread, you've put down the other man and I understand that, but at the end of the day, the other man is having lunch in your wife's apartment, not you.

The affair has been going on since mid last year and you noticed over 4000 texts in January of this year. I guess I don't know what she's learning besides that she can be with whomever she wants, and you'll stand there waiting in the wings. Yes, maybe she won't get to talk to you once in a while, and she'll have a jealous moment from time to time but other than that, you're giving a year away of your life just standing idly by?
I guess I don't get what she's learning, but whatever works for you.


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## purrhotstuff

8yearscheating said:


> Your patience, strength and sense of direction shows real character and integrity Elph.* I'm also glad you are standing up for what you believe in because, as you know, there a LOT of people on here on here who believe it's not worth it.* _ I'm glad to see you are stating your position and not doing what others are suggesting if it's not what you believe._ I felt the same way despite an extremely huge amount of my wife's indiscretions, history and results - 20 years, three men and a daughter that is not biologically mine. I still loved her and knew I could whatever it took to get through it. It's a hard road but very rewarding as it progresses. Here's mud in your eye my good friend!


You are on the opposite side of the spectrum and that's fine, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with actually wanting someone to not be a door mat and stand by while their spouse gets to go and do anyone they want to. 
I wouldn't expect anyone to fold and give in to what others say on here, this is an online forum, you come here for perspective. 

I am very interested to hear what motivates someone to put their life on hold for year, to wait for a cheating spouse. I personally don't get it, but as with everyone else on here, you come here to listen to varying opinions and beliefs.

I don't think that people on here think "it's not worth it."
Many of us have experienced infidelity, or have caused, it. We aren't on this forum because it's not worth it.

I don't get your opinion, but I don't judge it, I don't criticize it, I don't even attempt to label it. Why do you? I noticed you had this penchant in another thread, I believe it was for HurtinginTN. If you feel that everyone on here, no matter what they go through, she be open to reconciliation, that's fine, you're entitled to that, and I don't even care enough to judge it, so why do you feel the need to say anything when someone has a different opinion? In the end, the OP is going to do what they want to do. Just like in real life relationships, I don't think I've ever had one conversation with a girlfriend that resulted in her doing what I said. She did what she was going to do, foolish or not. Same for everyone else on here. You come here to vent and discuss, and compare stories, but after all is said and done, you aren't going to listen to anyone on here. You're going to do what you intend to do.


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## 8yearscheating

Why would anyone, when the man has indicated he wants to R if it's possible, but is OK if it doesn't happen, push him the other way? Political correctness aside, who are people on this forum to spout their opinion when it is in direct contradiction to what he wants? You can call it perspective all you want - it's your opinion based on what you would do. I by the way am on the side of the spectrum that is based on what he wants. Others are on the opposite side.


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## purrhotstuff

8yearscheating said:


> Why would anyone, when the man has indicated he wants to R if it's possible, but is OK if it doesn't happen, push him the other way? Political correctness aside, who are people on this forum to spout their opinion when it is in direct contradiction to what he wants? You can call it perspective all you want - it's your opinion based on what you would do. I by the way am on the side of the spectrum that is based on what he wants. Others are on the opposite side.


You say that many on here are quick to attempt to give advice to end the relationship, so yes, by that, you are on the opposite end of the spectrum in that regards.

Secondly, just because that is what he wants, doesn't mean that anyone else with a different opinion can't express it.

If someone on here was being emotionally or physically abused but wanted to stay with that person, should everyone just shut their mouths and not give an opinion?

Look buddy, you say what you want and I don't care, I expect the same courtesy. That's all.

I will reiterate, you can't push anyone to do anything in regards to relationships. That's why many folks stay in abusive situations (I'm not talking about this thread, per se). If more people were able to be pushed in a certain direction, many would get out of the abusive relationships rather than stay in them. They'd follow the directions of relatives pushing them towards leaving a bad situation.

Again, say what you want, cool...but as long as I'm respectful, I'm going to say what I want to. We're all adults here, and in this situation, not one person is capable of being 100 percent right on, or capable of seeing the future. You may be pushing him in a direction that ends up being bad for him. Who knows? We all say what we think. 

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't want to thread hog.


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## elph

i dont think im being a doormat. 

ive been sticking to the surviving an affair plan A for the past month or so. i am seeing some doubt in my wifes actions. 
when she moves out, i go into a plan B.

while the texting mayve started, i dont have an actual timeline, but i suspect late oct, nov when the emotional affair started. I didnt find out till late feb. early march.

and the reality, im not giving her a year. thats her date based off of her lease. im giving her till legal seperation papers gothrough, but when she moves out, ive told heri so much as i wont even be her friend, just the mother of her child.

iemphatically believe that the plan B, 180 method will have an effect on my wife. that along with her counseling(of which the therapist is trying to get her to break away), her meds, and er family and my son will all have an effect on her relationship.
as well as the OM himself. ive gathered a great deal of info from his soon to be ex wife. a lot of things that my wife will not like, but she has to discover them the hard way.


so im not gong to sit around waiting. im moving on, but if she gets her head out of her ass, then the opportunity may present it self to reconcille.


or ill put it this way. 

se asked me a week ago.
what if i find someone that makes me happy? what right do she have to end it.
i told that she is the mother of my child, we will always be connected and he has the right to a complete family. 
and if she wanted bad enough to be with me, then she would have to fight for me. she would have to put in as much energy and effort that she did into the affair. she would have to be willing to go NC. to become transperant. to become totally honest. and to boost my ego.

if she ends it with him, then come back to me a month or so later, when shes gone through withdrawl, and prove to me, in action, not words, that she wants to be with me. i already told her that i wont be second place or her backup plan, and imost certainly wont be herrebound from the affair.


i know alot o people will say that i am, but i believe it when they say that an affairs like an addiciton, that the WS is out of their mind and is like on a drug or alcohol. i believe people make mistakes. and everybody should have a chance at redemption. but it will come with a price. there will be no blind leap of faith. but methodical healing.

i think my wife is starting to come out of the fog, or having moments of clarity. but she cant bring her self to end it because she still has feelings, and to be honest shes weak. thats been her biggest personality flaw since the day i met her.


everbody is entitled to their opnion and i appreciate them, even if i dont agree. 

i am just gonna err on the side of positive. just because i know mywife, andi know shes not completely herself.


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## elph

i also want to throw this out there.

if youve read survivng an affair, we are the jon and sue of that story. 
my wife has givn me all the fog babble. the ILYBINILWY speech. the i need to ind myself speech. 

she is very much a textbook affair. as well, i think life, the new baby and house got to her. im not saying any of this is an excuse, its all the worst thing iv ever been through, but after pounding my head against a wall for the first few months and doing absolutley everything wrong, ive changed up my strategy and it seems to be working. 

does this work for everybody? no. alot of people wouldnt deal with adultery. alot of people would just kick them to the curb.

but im not one of them.

if she really wanted out or to leave, she would have. as well and ill say it again, having been a child of divorce, i believe my soon should have the chance of a whole and complete family.

my wife has been on script with everything shes done, and her reactions to the things i do. there is no way we can fix the marriage while shes in the affair, so until that happens, shes getting kicked out.

and believe you me reality is affecting her. as well as the fact that i could theoretically date sooner than later.

all according to plan


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## sam83

Man I'm so sorry for your situation and I really know it's ur own decision but did u consider the facts that u the one who discover the affair not that she comes clean and the other fact she's not remorseful of what she did even she says she's sorry million times I don't believe in reconciliation at all but I know that it takes hard steps from her side not just giving her all time to fu*k him and find he don't deserve it then she can come back to u and try it out in my opinion that's too unfair to u 

after she moves out do yourself a favor and look for a nice woman to be with just regular dates not for ur wife Jealousy but for u and who knows u might end finding a new life u deserve 

I'm not judging or criticizing ur decision I just giving u my opinion and hope u find it helping u one day


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## BigBri

Dude... it seems that all the things you're doing are things to "win" her back, as opposed to making yourself better- FOR YOU.


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## 8yearscheating

I think he is doing both.


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## BigBri

C'mon... his only end is to have her back. Or else, he wouldn't be implementing these so-called "changes."


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## 8yearscheating

BigBri - I can tell you see no hope. Even if he is making a mistake - there have been tons of folks on here telling him he is. He is doing this based on his decision. Are you helping him?


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## BigBri

Its not about hope, my friend... its about being able to see things for what they REALLY are. I'm glad he's making all these "positive" changes, but it sould be for _HIM_, not to win _HER_ back. He needs to build confidence for _his_ benefit, not hers.


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## elph

one of the things i see on these boards that really bug me is when the conversation goes a certain way when it comes to the fact that the WS is the wife. i always see"bah blah bah ****ed him blah blah blah"

as a guy i know how powerful a statement that is. how we as males focus on the physical aspect being the more important part of the affair. and why im saying it does have an impact, its far to easy to go all black and white and classify all affairs motivation as the same thing.

the one thing ive learned, the one thing that has helped me cope, is understanding the why my wife did it and what she sees in him and her total perspective. i understand im getting only 50% of the answers, but for now its more than enough to paint a picture.

the big kicker is that women who enter into affairs do it for emotional reasons. in my wifes case my "neglect" is a big factor. she didnt enter into the affair because hes better looking or for more sex. our se life was already pretty good. she entered into it to get her emotional needs met. particularly, affection. since it was a co worker who pursued her (and all the evidence supports this fact) i know shes not in it for physical reasons. 

so it just bugs me when the conversations devolves into any sex related reason for the affair, and consequently, to dump her. i get it, theyve been physical. NO itsnot right.and i dont accept it. but to drop my wife after 17 years based off a knee jerk reaction of them being intimate would be foolish.


like any affair. its not all black and white. and gaining knowledge of the situation has been extremely beneficial in making sure i dont fly off the handle. 

because its not only me involved here. its my son. 

im not just fighting this war for me, im doing it for him.

that to me is sufficient enough reason alone. his mother s been out o her damn mindfor the past 7 plus months. butit doesnt make her a bad person, it makes a person whos made some bad choices.

ive read other posts where the WS is outright malicious. with a cold heart in both word and deed. i can tell you my wife is neither like that as a person, or in the way shes been acting.

the fact that shes in counseling, is going through depression and is on medication makes a huge difference. ive talked to her therapist, i know thedirection shes taking, both for short term and long term reasons.

i am not another one of those lost hope cases. and neither is she.


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## elph

BigBri said:


> C'mon... his only end is to have her back. Or else, he wouldn't be implementing these so-called "changes."


actually some of these "changes" have been implmented for my sons benefit as well. 

alot of these "changes" though, arent based of my wifes need. alot of these are getting myself back to the core of who i am.

one of my wifes complaints is that im no longer the person she fell in love with. a happy go lucky, take charge dont let the world get to you kinda guy. and i absolutely agree with that. since the birth of our son and purchase of the house, ive changed. and shes not the only one to notice. 

so im gettin back to who i am. it just happens to be beneficial to the wife.

ive lost weight. my dr. says thats good, because i have highbood pressure (And had it way before the affair) 

there are a few things that are new. things that ive been wanting to develop into for a while. this was just a kick in the pants.

and there are a few that are wife specific. she likes boxers, so i switched. (funny aside story. i asked the soon to be ex, what he wears, so that i wasnt matching up with him. she said, he has always worn tighty whiteys. hahahaahhaha, my wife confirmed it during one of her moments of clarity, but she didnt know that i knew)

but id say 75% of these changes needed to happen for my sake to begin with, or already were happening. the side effect is that it may get my wife back.


oddly enough, i have actually benn hit on by a couple women in the past month alone. one a cute red head parking attendant at my office. 

knowing that my relationship has a finite timeline (ie her moving out) has taken a tremendous weight off my shoulders and lets me navigate through the day with not only confidence, but a sense of relief.

that i dont have to deal with the bull crap anymore. that when she moves out, im not going to be paying attention to her or asking her questions. shes free to do what she wants. im really focussing on me and my son. ive already told her mom and friends i dont want to know. the only thing i want to know is when they break up. 


so these changes are being made for me. the side effect is it affecting my wife. as it should be.


----------



## morituri

elph said:


> *funny aside story. i asked the soon to be ex,.*


You mean your wife? If that is the case then why this song and dance of Plan A/Plan B?


----------



## elph

morituri said:


> You mean your wife? If that is the case then why this song and dance of Plan A/Plan B?


my bad, i shoulda clarified. the OMs soon to be ex.

funny thing too.

when i started asking suspecting things earlier this year, my wife would give me a list of reasons why not. hes a mommas boy, self esteem issues, too needy, a bubble boy who needs to be clean all the time, no friends...i pretty good list really.

the OMs ex proved all these to be true. she said, she never really noticed them before. but being where she is now, she completely agreed. everything my wife said is 100% accurate.

her theory, and really a general theory all around, is that at work, he can project what ever he wants. my wife says its his confidence and leadership and considerateness were the 3 biggest factors that made him attractive. he said all the right things, put me and our marital problems down enough and made himself look good to the point that she lowered her guard and BOOM! affair city.

now the thing that the OMX laughs about is as hes projecting this character of his, eventually his true colors will show. the neediness. the competition my wife will have with his mom. his selfish ways. the fact that he doesnt do anything unless he absolutley has too.

and unless its birthdays, mothersday, christmas, or valentines day. gifts and romance really are few and far between.

we basically sumise that he put up enough energy to rope her in, and has been coasting ever since...maybe 25% effort while she does all the rest. 

when i saw the fights they had via text message. he would change subject midway through, and she would be the one to apologize or "give in" as she says. and the fact that theyve had fights already says something to me.

the OMX has been quite the valuable resource in getting to know my enemy and from that makes me feel better because i really know that the bastard cant hold anything to me.

inferior all the way around


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## morituri

elph,

I thought of a funny idea to pi*ss the OM big time. Have a picture of his STBXW and you giving each other a cheek to cheek hug, with huge grins on your faces - as though the two of you did something nasty - and send it to his place of work.

Of course you shouldn't do this but still I can picture the idiot's expression if he saw it.:rofl:


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## elph

morituri said:


> elph,
> 
> I thought of a funny idea to pi*ss the OM big time. Have a picture of his STBXW and you giving each other a cheek to cheek hug, with huge grins on your faces - as though the two of you did something nasty - and send it to his place of work.
> 
> Of course you shouldn't do this but still I can picture the idiot's expression if he saw it.:rofl:


if he was still into her i totally would. or if she wanted him back. unfortuantly as you probably know, he served her

heres an idea we were tossing around.

he still doesnt know she knows about the affair. she hasnt told him and wants to do it in the coparenting couseling they do. (i know stupid she hasnt said anything blah blahblah)


but, and this works esp. after the confrontation, 

i would hang out at her house on the day he has the kids. and as he comes over to drop them off, well guess whos there talking to the OMX. and who know what they could be talking about.

well much like he tried to pull, he cant ask me to leave. plus hes now faced with the absolute certainty that she knows. and she will use it against him (compiling a log of things hes been dong, like on his kid days, dumping the kids off at grandmas while he goes to lunch with my wife) 

the look on his face would be priceless.

the lone reason not to. the kids would be there, and if he gets unpredictable, they shouldnt have to be subjected to anything bad in front of him. i want to get back at him...badly, but not at their expense. im not that evil.



and im still going off fumes from the confrontation...


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## morituri

Ah such wicked fantasies.

This one goes to all the OM out there. :moon:


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## Eli-Zor

Once you kick into plan B take all the photo's and pictures that have your wife therein and put them away, hang up photo's of you and your son, your MIL you and your son and the Aunt. It is a message that your wife will see and receive. It may be subconscious but it does effect them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

Eli-Zor said:


> Once you kick into plan B take all the photo's and pictures that have your wife therein and put them away, hang up photo's of you and your son, your MIL you and your son and the Aunt. It is a message that your wife will see and receive. It may be subconscious but it does effect them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


your reading my mind. 

as well as finally repainting the bedroom and getting a bedroom set and mattress, since im letting her take ours (which just gives me reason to upgrade, tempupedic maybe?)

conversely, she wanted me to add a whole bunch of new pictures to her digital frame shes taking. of us, and our family.

pretty sure the OM won't like that.hehe.


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## 8yearscheating

I'm still offering to read any script you want to him - blocked dialing number so he can't see who's calling. I could even go all drill sargent on his ass and tell him she has three other boyfriends and is only playing him and trying to figure out how many $ she can get from him. Plant a seed in his insecurity as it were.


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## elph

i also want to throw out there, that i have an awesome therapist, whos done dual role at helping me both with coping with my marriage and regain my confidence and sense of self.


it doesnt hurt shes a hot italian/armenin woman too...seriously, shes like 45 and disgustinly sexy...accent and all...

and married too...


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## morituri

she better not be a sex therapist.


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## 8yearscheating

Why, that could be fun!


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## 8yearscheating

Oh, that's right, he's supposed to wait till he's divorced!


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## morituri

8yearscheating said:


> Oh, that's right, he's supposed to wait till he's divorced!


and the therapist divorced as well.

No worries 8years, we all have our senior moments.


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## 8yearscheating

Young, dumb and full of come...Old age and treachery will overcome youth and vigor any day of the week!


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## morituri

8yearscheating said:


> Young, dumb and full of come...Old age and treachery will overcome youth and vigor any day of the week!


True, true. Now where did I put that little blue pill?


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## elph

A new update on this whole restraining order thing. 

I found out through her co worker that he either can't or it will get harder to get one against me because my wife will not sign off as a witness. 
So to my knowledge he won't be getting one against me. 


That has to piss him off. 

And Ina small way I think it sends a statement to him that my wife is not as committed to him as he thought. 
Of course it could mean nothing. But if i were him, I'd take it as something 

It's a small victory. And I'll take it. Even if it doesn't mean anything to our relationship. It pisses him off and that works for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

So far so good , wait and see what her does. Do all the co-workers know what is happening, hope they do as this causes stress in their affair world. Keep close to his for your next step is to legally enforce a no contact between him and your son. In one of the other posts you mentioned his wife has not told him she knows of the affair, while she may be on her own agenda be careful as she may never call him out on this which is to your disadvantage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

The OMX actually went into the store today. At the same time as my wife. (it was a coworkers last day)

Apperantly the OM text my wife that she had come in and my wife waited in her car, crying it seems. ( that coming from my MIL) 
There was no confrontation there, tho it would've been nice. After all their love is so great, shout it from the mountain top right?

As well the OM stayed in the back delivery area of the store, like the coward he is. 

He's scared of his ex, because she can still take him for child support and full custody. And she doesn't want him back. 

So when this party comes crashing down, he'll have nowhere to go. 

And quite frankly I still can't get over that my wife isn't backing him about the RO. Not because it helps me, but because it hurts him. To me he left his wife for mine. She didn exactly jump away from our marriage, and now she's being kicked out, and she's moving as slowly as possible. 


And one more thing. My wife, son, and MIL are going down to Disneyland this weekend. 
My son asked me to meet then there for sat. 
I told her if he texts, I'm heading right home and I'll walk right into that store and make him **** his pants 

Her response. He doenst know I'm going. And it's none of his business. 

Already lying and hiding things. 

Her coworkers husband, whis a vendor and my friend is going to ask next week whenthe OM is around if I made it down and had a good time. Justto make it aware that I went. Then well see how he acts, and her reaction. And thus their relationship will live by the sword and die by the sword. 


And I'm laughing. Because by then, shell be moved out, but he'll always wonder. Hahahaha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Elph, You may be relying to much on his wife leveraging OM not looking after his children to gain custody of her children and causing him pain. I don't think it will affect him at all he is in his selfish affair world. However I do think when you next see your wife apply pressure by mentioning he abandoned his children, they will know her name and face and blame her directly for taking their father away from them. Let her know she should be proud to be a marriage wrecker and is direcly responsible for the break up of two families.

Choose your own words and leave the seed in her head if she has any integrity left on her this will play on her mind, Futhermore there is nothing wrong in saying that the OM's wife was at the store and came to see her , ask her why she did not meet the wife. If she asks who told you , people talk , after all her affair is now common knowledge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

found out just a bit ago that my wife doesnt want the OM to even know that shes going to disneyland. 
i know they had talked about wanting to go together at one point, back when i could read their texts, but now shes hiding where she and her mom are going on vacation...


so now a little a lie about me going, turns into a bigger lie. i wonder why? why should she hide anything? i thought he was so perfect, after all why would he get mad?

im being facetious by the way.

and next week my friend will go up and ask her how was disneyland and if I had a good time while there, while the OM is within earshot....that should stir up the hive a little....



hahahaaha


----------



## elph

so disneyland went well

i accomplished my goals of having a great time with the family, keeping my mouth shut and focusing on my son, and just trying to be the best person i could be. i was tempted to be snarky on several occasions, and my wife saw it coming, but i said nothing and instead was just good. 

since disneyland is a trigger (they text about it alot) i felt great to face that fear head on.

and at some point, my wife even grabbed and held on to my hand.

sure its possible at some point she was thinking she wishes he was there...but its a definite that she was happy i was there...still leaving the good thoughts in her head.

this week, we are supposed to have the talk with our son toe explain whats going on. itll be one of the toughest things ive ever dealt with, but like everything else that has come of it, ill face that fear head on to..

the only bad part is that i feel the hate and anger start to creep in about this whole thing again, and i know that it will derail such hard earned changes...i just hope i can stay focused with the plan ahead...

i


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## 8yearscheating

Before you talk to the son, what is it your going to talk about. Unless she is committed to getting divorced, why would you say anything?


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## Shaggy

Don't let the good feelings and hope that Disneyland gave you make you soft in dealing with her. She's going to want you to soften the blow to your son when you tell him that she's abandoning her family for the OM. 

If you let her con you into making this easier for her, you're enabling the affair. She created this mess through her choices, it's hers to explain and make right to your son. Then she'll leave and have you pick up the pieces and try to make it not too scaring on him. 

I do not understand how any mother could do that to a child they love.


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## elph

I don't understand it either. 

We went to a therapist about this. Since there is going to be a dramatic shift in the living arrangements and such we had to find out how to tell him and help him cope. And I'm definitely not trying to make thus easy for my wife. Quitethe opposite. I'm hoping this will be part of what snaps her out of the fog. When he starts asking for me when hes over there and vice versa. 

I don't get it. Amd it's so unnecessary. But this is what my wife has chosen so she should receive the full effect of it. 
Like I said, hopefully this will help her out of the fog. 

I said in a different thread, my wife is not a bad person, she just made some really bad decisions. And this is one that she will never be able to escape. I'm hopin Thayer can reconcille by the time her lease is up if not sooner and it'll be nothing but a bad dream to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

The problem with separations is that more often than not they either lead to divorce or an emotional detachment which promotes the creation of secondary relationships (affairs). I just hope that in your case, it is the exception and not the rule.


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## 8yearscheating

You need to specifically ask her the question - Do you want our son to think we permanently separated? He will. What do expect me to tell him when he asks if your ever coming back? All I can say right now is no your not ever coming back. 

Yes you want her out of the fog. Don't let your son be a tool for doing it. Long term it could cause some real damage to how he feels about your wife and she needs to understand that is where this is leading.


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## elph

Well she's already got the affair. But from what I understand he's already starting to shoot himself in the foot. 

My hope is that I'll get the absence makes the heart grow fonder thing along with the missing her son thing. That's why I've been doing all this, like going to Disneyland. To try to re establish an emotional connection. 

And like they say, the grass isn't always greener.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sexuallyfustrated

8yearscheating said:


> I'll tell him I do vasectomies with a 12 ga slug! I can shoot the nuts off a fly at 25 yards with a 45 so he should be no problem! He won't hear a 30-06 at 1000 yards - he'll just be a bag of **** on the ground. Better yet, I'll use a 50 cal 2000 yards so I can watch his head explode like a watermelon and his body fly fly 30 feet self propelled! Watch your back boy, you'll never see it coming! Ought to have his a$$ a quivering bag of fear in no time! For the wife, what kind of **** have you crawled in bed with? He's worthless and has 3 other stupid wenches just like you! Glad you like sloppy thirds and all the diseases that go with it! ASk your dirtbag to marry you and watch how fast runs he runs to the next state!


:rofl::rofl:.....WOW:rofl:
Where is my offer to do that for me 
joking


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## 8yearscheating

Yes - but don't talk to your son without having the conversation I suggested FIRST with her. HE didn't do this and doesn't deserve her stupidity turning his world upside down.


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## elph

8yearscheating said:


> You need to specifically ask her the question - Do you want our son to think we permanently separated? He will. What do expect me to tell him when he asks if your ever coming back? All I can say right now is no your not ever coming back.
> 
> Yes you want her out of the fog. Don't let your son be a tool for doing it. Long term it could cause some real damage to how he feels about your wife and she needs to understand that is where this is leading.


Absolutely true on all accounts. I hope its that concept that helps pull her out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Gladly Frustrated!


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## sexuallyfustrated

elph said:


> I'm not nescasarily holding out hope. She is moving out and I am focusing on myself.
> 
> But at the same time. I still love her. She's still the mother of my child. And I don't believe that she's 100% into him. I know my wife better than anybody else. I know she's still in the fog and I know the statistics work in MY favor. But she's gonna have to learn the hard way the grass isn't greener. I'm not accepting of this. Thata why she's moving out. She isn't doing it by choice. Same with the separation. She's using my attorney to take care of business.
> 
> What's that tell u?
> 
> By the holidays the affair should be over if I know her. She needs to grow up as is and this will force her to do it.
> After 17 years I know I still want to spend the rest of my life with her. But not while the affair goes on. Amd when it ends well have a lot of work to do to fix it. But it's possible
> 
> 
> For once I'd like to be one of the success stories here. After all that's gone on I think it can happen. Alot of people wonder why I still hold out hope or deal with it.
> It's because that's what I do.
> 
> I'm sorry for those whose marriages don't work out. But I have no desire to be part of that group and I think our marriage will eventually survive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you serious. Sorry for what! It's your marriage, your life, your family. Do what YOU think is best for you. Your fighting for what you want at the same time you making it plan that her affair will not be tolerated. What ever the case Elph, do what you feel is the best for you.


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## elph

8yearscheating said:


> Yes - but don't talk to your son without having the conversation I suggested FIRST with her. HE didn't do this and doesn't deserve her stupidity turning his world upside down.


Were gonna have that conversation together but I'm gonna have her do most of the talking. This is her fault. It's heb job. 
One day I hope my son never understands that his mom chose another man over him. I hope she gets out of the fog she's in because before this she loved her son like no other. That's one of the biggest changes she's made. She slowly coming back. But still deciding to move out. She still infers that it's at the suggestion of her therapist. Which I actually understand because my wife has alot of growing up to do. But that's still only 25% of the reason to me. The rest is to be with him. To see where it goes though almost everybody agrees it's going to fail amd miserable. And shell be left to pick up the pieces. 

But that part, again if she's willing to do the work, we can do as a team.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Okay Elph - your doing the right thing by letting her make the decision and living with it.


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## elph

so my wife has started getting some of her stuff together, and shes planning to move the bedroom stuff out this weekend...


as much as i need this to happen to keep from going down a dark path, it feels alot like the day i found out about the affair.
and as much as i need the reality to set in for her to help get her out of the fog, the reality is setting in for me that there is a possibility of this ending completely. 

although i do have hope, and iknow my wife well enough, and have seen some progress, there are still some unknown variables.
like she could like living on her own. 
or she could break up with him, and in the midst of actually healing, find some one else.

but she mentioned again how she just feels lost and confused. and how shes gonna fall flat on her face.

the OMX called me today and told me how a totally different coworker mentiond that my wife said how controlling hes becoming.

i still place my bets that the holidays will be it. but this week is becoming alot harder than imagined. i want to be angry and start questioning everything because i might not get another chance. i want to yell and scream...

but as the 180 says, i cant back off of the hard earned changes. i have to avoid angry outbursts. as much as i want to get angry, if we fight before she leaves, then itll just justify it more in her mind, as opposed to giving her a good image to stick with until..


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## 8yearscheating

You can throw one offer to NC and stay home. Then shut up.


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## elph

That's not gonna happen. Shea committed to moving out because stuff has been bought and all that crap. 

And in reality, shea just not that far enough to get out of the relationship. So shell be off to fail on her own. 

We had the talk with our son tonight. 
And it happened just as I thought it would. I did most of the talking. My wife sat behind him hugging him while I told him how much we loved him, not his fault and how mommy and daddy rant getting along and mommys gonna move out. And he's gonna have two rooms. Etc. 

For 3 1/2 I think he handled it well. Reaffirmed the I love yous. I said I love you to my son and he replied with the I love you too. My wife said the same, but the response was quite different. She had to ask a do you love mommy because he wouldn't answer and he replied with a no. He understands what's going on if notthe words. And he verbalized that he wasn't happy. 

At this point I'm sick to my stomach. 

I hope that MFers worth it to her cuz right now I wanna beat the living s outta him. And I'm about as angry as I've ever been at my wife. I wanna say a whoever lotta stuff that'll pretty much destroy her. But I'm better off not 

For now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sexuallyfustrated

elph said:


> That's not gonna happen. Shea committed to moving out because stuff has been bought and all that crap.
> 
> And in reality, shea just not that far enough to get out of the relationship. So shell be off to fail on her own.
> 
> We had the talk with our son tonight.
> And it happened just as I thought it would. I did most of the talking. My wife sat behind him hugging him while I told him how much we loved him, not his fault and how mommy and daddy rant getting along and mommys gonna move out. And he's gonna have two rooms. Etc.
> 
> For 3 1/2 I think he handled it well. Reaffirmed the I love yous. I said I love you to my son and he replied with the I love you too. My wife said the same, but the response was quite different. She had to ask a do you love mommy because he wouldn't answer and he replied with a no. He understands what's going on if notthe words. And he verbalized that he wasn't happy.
> 
> At this point I'm sick to my stomach.
> 
> I hope that MFers worth it to her cuz right now I wanna beat the living s outta him. And I'm about as angry as I've ever been at my wife. I wanna say a whoever lotta stuff that'll pretty much destroy her. But I'm better off not
> 
> For now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just put my husband out tonight because he went to the OW house again and then lied to my face about it. I know how you feel and I am sorry that you are going through this. It's a scary thing for woman or man to have to go through and wonder how we will be able to handle being sole provider and mother and father. I wish I had more words to comfort you but I am at a lost myself and feeling all of a sudden sick to my stomach. Wishing you the best.


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## Chaparral

Good luck with your 180 Elph. I know how sad you are and I hope it works out before you've moved on. Praying for you . Over the years I've known mothers that have left their children but I'll never come close to comprehending it. I guess there just something completely missing in their psyche. As soon as possible get out and have some fun.


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## 8yearscheating

Just my opinion Elph, who gives a **** about what has been bought or plans made. After the discussion with your son and the way she is behaving, giving her a safe haven with a requirement of NC may be just what it will take to turn her. The 180 in my opinion creates a seperation and convinces them you are done.


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## morituri

8yearscheating said:


> After the discussion with your son and the way she is behaving, *giving her a safe haven with a requirement of NC may be just what it will take to turn her*. The 180 in my opinion creates a separation and convinces them you are done.


NC with elph or with the OM? If it's the former, that is worse than the 180 because that is a de facto telling her that he's done with her. If it's the latter, how is he going to be sure she abides by it?

In many cases, a separation is simply a prelude to divorce. It creates an emotional detachment and makes it easier for the unfaithful to continue with the affair but this time out in the open and with less guilt since for her "separated=single". I hope I'm wrong, I truly do.


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## Eli-Zor

His wife is refusing to stop the affair and has even had his son with her when she has seen the OM . Elph has little room to manouver , has a  wife who is unwilling to commit to the marriage and with advice from her IC wants to move out. He will switch to Plan B once she is out of the house, his son stays with him , it would have been preferable she did not see her family at all but as it is she will. 

She will have to get her EN met from the OM and from what I can read the OM is not doing that well at it, the Plan B is to protect Elph , if his wayward wife returns before the divorce is final then it is Elph's choice to take her back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

Eli got it mostly on point. 

She's still lagging on filing part of her separation papers. 

And I agree 8years. The money spent means nothing. But that's not her perception. 

The 180 is for my self. As well as preparing tobe a better dad and to prepare to date again at some point. Maybe even date my wife. 
Our plan b is slightly different because she will be able to see my won and have some contact with me because of it shell see the changes I've made. As for her EN I've done a good job the past month or two showing her I can do them. I've made it very clear what I want. That reconcilliation is possible but only if NC is established first. I have spy's at her jobto help me with that 

Shell also be getting my plan b letter which will lay everything out againand I'm going to send a letter to her therapist simply to explain my side of things so she knows where I'm coming fro. Should she need to steer th sessions that way. 

But for now it's protect me and my son she knows there's a safe harbor here, but there are requirements no compromise. 
Oddly enough I find myself talking alot ore firmly to her than ever to get her to listen. And I have to say I see a NOTICEaBLE change in her reaction when I do so. She's quite and kinda sits at attention. I talked to her somewhat gruffly of how I felt about the talk and what I want. She was Ina pissy mood nut when o changed my tone of voiceand got serious, it disappeared and she listened 

If we get back together, I may have some serious fun with this 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

I wish you the best of luck Elph. Praying for you my man. No athiests in a foxhole!


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## 8yearscheating

Are you requiring she be financially independant in this move out?


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## morituri

elph said:


> The 180 is for my self.


As it should be.


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## lordmayhem

You already know how these things usually play out. The secrecy and thrill that they got while sneaking around will be gone, and reality sets in. The affair become just another relationship, a relationship built on lies. Lies used to deceive everyone else. The grass only looks greener on the other side of the fence because its fertilized with bullsh!t.

I sincerely hope that you get the begging on knees, blubbering, mascara running down the chin moment. You've been here long enough to know the strict requirements she would have to follow to even get a shot at R. 

If not, then you can be secure in the knowledge that you tried and can move on with your life accordingly. Never live in FEAR that they will not come back like so many others do.


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## elph

8years. for the most part shell be on her own financially. the only thing she wont is auto insurance. since were combined ill still be paying that, but shes covering health insurance, so its a fair trade.

lord mayhem. your completely right. 
the one thing i have been doing, despite what others may or may not agree to how ive handled the situation in general is playing the statistics, and playing to the knowledge of knowing my wife. shes so text book its not even funny. and if what i under stand is true.

97% affairs die a natural death within 2 years (i estimate the real begining as oct/nov '10, not jan'11 like she says)
most affairs end in 6 months after exposure (that would be the holidays for us)
75% of couples try to reconcille or dont divorce after the affair (not just friends, by shirly glass)
50% of couples who stay together for the kids end up finding love again.

these are enough for me to give it a shot and become one of the more positive statistic.

and im not going to lie, i would love to get tehe crying on your knees moment. but more than that, i want denouncement of the OM. ive heard that sometimes the effects or feeling for the AP linger. i want her to denounce him for the waste of time, controlling manipulative, passive agressive mistake that he is. i want hate.

conversely i want her to pursue and praise me, like im god.

im not going to get it, but i will take a reasonable facsimile.

but one day at a time, and she still has to move out. 

and i have to keep all the images out of my head...


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## 2xloser

elph said:


> We had the talk with our son tonight.
> And it happened just as I thought it would. I did most of the talking. My wife sat behind him hugging him while I told him how much we loved him, not his fault and how mommy and daddy rant getting along and mommys gonna move out. And he's gonna have two rooms. Etc.
> 
> For 3 1/2 I think he handled it well. Reaffirmed the I love yous. I said I love you to my son and he replied with the I love you too. My wife said the same, but the response was quite different. She had to ask a do you love mommy because he wouldn't answer and he replied with a no. He understands what's going on if notthe words. And he verbalized that he wasn't happy.
> 
> At this point I'm sick to my stomach.
> 
> I hope that MFers worth it to her cuz right now I wanna beat the living s outta him. And I'm about as angry as I've ever been at my wife. I wanna say a whoever lotta stuff that'll pretty much destroy her. But I'm better off not
> 
> For now.


I literally got big giant tears in my eyes reading this. Ouch!!!!!!! I cannot imagine this scene going down in my home... I just can't. Sobering moment for me as I figure out what I'm doing in my own situation, even with a WW who DOES want R and doing the heavy lifting to be here. Thank you for posting your story.

I've watched your thread and your progression through this horrible journey, and you probably know I'm not in agreement with your course of action, but I absolutely respect it and recognize it is YOUR situation and your course and your life to lead, and no one else is living it day by day. I really do wish you the best and am hoping it turns out the way you envision and hope. I very much want to be wrong here and look forward to the day you are able to stand up and say "Told ya so, everyone!"


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## elph

So Plan A is almost over.

This weekend, i helped my wife move the remaining furniture shes taking to her place. 
WHAT!! helped her move you say, screw that. its her problem you say?

yeah, i know. but i wasnt gonna let that ******* anywhere near my house. and im Plan A till the very last. and it was beneficial through out the whole weekend.
on saturday, we moved the stuff together. as a team. i finished up my sons room. its nice, and i hope hes happy. i poked and prodded my wife for what little answers i could get. i even out right asked why him. 
she of course gave me an i dont know. but she then confirmed what i had known for a while. i asked if he gave her the "if i was your boyfriend" speech. and she said yes. but with a look in her eyes that said to me "how could i have fallen for it"
after the move we returned the uhaul truck. we gased it up and returned it. afterwards when we were driving to get some grub, my wife remarked how when i was pumping gas and when i was lifting some of the heavier stuff, she saw my arms work. she noticed how big they were getting. and how strong. she then broke down ans said if she doesnt figure stuff our, how somebody was going to get really lucky..(yeah, i know right)

sunday started out okay.
she told me how the OMX has been coming by her store the past few tuesdays. and this last time she saw them talking in the front of the store. well per my wifes story, they headed back in, but he had distanced himself far enough ahead of her to interecept his X that my wife felt like he bailed on her. her great protector took off to save his own face. but my wife also has it in her head that he may try to reconcille with the X. (something i think shes making up) 

she told me about that red flag, and that shes mentioned to her IC several others. the IC could only ask how many red flags was it going to take. I got no answer on that one. but after his little bail, they got into a fight. he called her style of fighting relentless (something he cant handle, but i can) in theory she also told him i went down to Disneyland. prob. to piss him off.

she then brought up the fact hes going to another store to train employees and theyre trying to make him transfer permanently . something my wife said shes not discouraging. 

the rest of the day was getting a few things for her apt. and taking our son out for some playtime.

she did try to lash out on sat. but i saw it coming and just kept my plan in mind. to not give into the fights, because thats what she wanted to appease her guilt. instead i was firm and took control of the situation. and she responded. 

i gave her my plan B letter this morning. shes coming by to pick up the last of the basics, and watch my son. and then itll begin tonight. 

well see how it goes from here. but i think i put in her enough knowledge of who i am and how i can be if she decides to help fix the marriage, i even listed waht was necessary in the letter...we can only see what happens next.


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## 8yearscheating

I think your right on the money ELPH. Let it play out.


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## KathyGriffinFan

Good luck Elph, I hope things work out in your favor.


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## sexuallyfustrated

What ever you want I wish you nothing but the best.


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## Chaparral

Good luck and stay STRONG!


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## ItHappenedToMe

elph said:


> And like they say, the grass isn't always greener.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."
What people forget is: "But the it still has to be mowed."
That is...there is always work to be done there, too.

There's a Cary Grant/Robert Mitchum movie of the same name. A decent thing to watch. 

Found it at my library.


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## elph

And So it happened. 

She moved out (for the most part) tonight. 

My modified plan b begins. It was a relatively emotional night. Thankfully my son was wired so he took some of the energy. And distracted things a bit. 

I think because I saw this coming and I know I've done my best to be the best I can be, it isn't hurting as much as I thought. 

Of course ask me tomorrow and it may be a lot different. 

And at the same time, I've got no choice but to embrace being a single father. If I can be a good single father and learn, I'll be a better father when I'm in a relationship. 

Of which, the count down begins. I'm still giving her the holidays.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Elph it will be tough for the next few days but it will get easier, go as dark as you can with your wife, even the slightest engagement from you feeds her and the affair.

I suggest you prepare yourself for a long haul or perhaps permanency , I truly hope your wife returns remorseful but for your own sake assume the worst , step away from her , get your life in order and live it the way you want to . Don't give yourself timelines when you think she may return, she may never come back , she needs to fall to rock bottom before she realises what she has done and often pride prevents them from doing what they know is right and they would rather live the lie unhappy than take steps to recover the marriage.

Sorry for the downer , it's your well being I am thinking of .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

one week since she moved out...

i found out the OMX FINALLY dropped the bomb on him. she told him that shes known about the affair. his reaction was the typical one youd expect. shifting, denial, modifiying or lying about facts. she told him she knew everything. but he just played the role of the OM like a fiddle...the best part is when he mentioned that our marrige is over and that were getting divorced....

but were just getting a legal separation. something my wife even made clear she would rather do as opposed to a divorce.


tonight, my son had his first night over at mommies house. ive been pretty good gong into this modified plan B. we havent talke about anything but drop off and pickups. now how are you's. her and her mom have been getting into it a bit lately too...

but i drop my son off. about 15 minutes later i get a call because hes losing his mind. 
so i head back to calm him down til he goes to sleep.

im there kinda quiet. not saying anything just watching tv.then my wife starts talking, and the next thing i know shes telling me a bunch of stuff on how its going. how shes miserable and hates her apt. then she goes into how shes going to take a leave of absence from work to sort things out and focus on our son. she tells me how shes so lost and confused. she still has feelings, but she doesnt know what love is.

she telling me how shes trying to take a breather from everything and that shes told the OM to back off, but hes trying to get closer and closer. i think shes even tried to break up with him and hes said not the kind of guy you just get rid of, and that it wount be that easy (or something to that effect)

shes telling me about her past few therapy sessions. how she feels like hes trying to come between her and her son...

but she cant bring herself to pull away completely.


i didnt say much. i just listened. but before i left, i reiterated my stance an dwhat i would expect should the day come.



suffice to say, i take everything with a grain of salt...but it was interestin none the less. 

and my son finally went to sleep, an 1 1/2 past his bed time...


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## 8yearscheating

She's leaning toward your side of the fence and that's good. I know your plan B but the one thing I would do is offer her safe haven. You will help shut him down permanantly if she will she will give you the nC letter to send. If he doesn't stop, you'll help her pull a restraining order. Just remind her your there to work it out if she chooses to do so. You may find it's it's enough to get her off the fence.


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## Chaparral

I agree. Have you talked to OM's wife? She definitely needs to be kept up to date about your wife wanting him to back off.


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## elph

oh the OM's soon to be ex has been quite the ally. she has no desire to be with him anymore and is moving on.

this morning she called to tell me how my sons first night went.

she went on to mention how between a text he sent her @ 930 and when i left @ 10 he text her an additional 7 times, with a hows it going, anything wrong.etc. BUT he also tried to call her 6 times too...

got that. she didnt respond right away, and he got all kinds of posessive.

she said to me this morning. 

"it looks like i've got a psycho on my hands"

i thing when she tried to break it off with him, he naturally got scared. but saying how he just can be gotten rid of is insane.

now im not getting my hopes up. in fact i know this will happen about 4 more times before shes done. but she also mentioned how shes still going to take time to sort herself out and that it doesnt mean were getting back together.

and thats fine. i just want her out of the affair, and we'll take it from there. that said, im still moving on. i cant be friends with her and watch her date other men either. 

but if i focus on my self, things will fall into place...

but the show isnt over yet...


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## turnera

She can always change her number if she wanted to...


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## elph

i would assume that would be part of the process when its truly over..but i think theyll go through this 4 more times, because my wife is weak. and hell talk his way back in, if he hasnt already today...that seems to be the pattern.


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## turnera

Have you told her that? Sometimes we aren't aware of our own weaknesses.


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## elph

im hesitant to give her too much info at this point till i know something positive, but it would all start with the NC letter.

the thing is, she doenst know that i would send a copy to HR. as well, but an uncomfortable look from him would prompt a sexual harrasment claim. but shes too passive to enact one. thats why id send to HR and make them fully aware of the situation.

as well, hes going to another store to train employees, and there is the posibility that they are forcing a transfer to that store. I believe my wife is relying on that to get her out of the situation. but it means squat till it happens.


i forgot to mention what happend last weekend. 

my son lost his **** 2 days in a row. the first day, i called my wife and had her listen to him cry for her to come home, or have me go drive and bring her back. after we showed him his new room the following day, i drove him home and it was more of the same thing. she called to check on him and heard him crying in the background.

it had to be the WORST SOUND IVE EVER HEARD.

it completely and utterly broke my heart in ways ive never been hurt before.
but at the same time it reinforced the strength i need to continue to fight for my family. its just a matter of her coming around.

of which, i think hes crying for her was the light that mayve shined through the fog.
but dont quote me on that. if it didnt, then he has a stronger hold from the dark side than i couldve imagined.

as well, hearing him cry like i did strengthened my hatred to a whole new level. hes now inflicted pain upon my son, he is now a marked man...


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## Whip Morgan

Sounds like interesting turn of events. Stay strong Elph. I would advise doing any physical violence against the now marked OM. Only leads to bad things. And don't let your hatred of this man overshadow your wife's role in harming your son.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

If they are still seeing each other and they work together, and you DO want to keep your marriage, you SHOULD go ahead and call her HR.


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## elph

oh, i contacted her HR the day before exposure day. i even emailed a letter that was suggested by a member on another site who worked for an HR department. it talked about possible violation of company policy and code of conduct. 
i believe and investigation was done and i heard it was inconclusive. BUT, he became a marked man at his company. i think somebody else phrased it as a legal liability. i think if they transfer him, its their sly way of getting out of a potentially bad situation. so for lack of a better term, they have a file on him.

of course that means they have a file on my wife too. but thats what she gets. fortunalty there are a lot of people who, while they disagree with what shes done, have her back and would help kepp her and jettison him in a heartbeat.


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## turnera

Sounds like the Catholic church.


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## 8yearscheating

Elph,
You've seem me post what I would "like" to do the OM. They are all fantasies that I will NEVER act on. I wouldn't waste my own life and that of my relationship with my kids AND my wife on the lowlife scum. I might scare the living **** out him if the opportunity presented itself with no witnesses but even that could get me jail time or a lawsuit and I'm not willing to risk it. He's done a great job of ruining himself. DO NOT waste yourself on him.


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## elph

looks like there was more to last night than i knew of. 

i got home after my son was dropped off and my wife let me in on more of last night.

she had gotten those texts and phone calls before i left. but there was one more. 

"im coming over"


this was at 1030. he arrived there. while my son was there. he was appearnetly furious. she said shed never seen the look in his eyes before. she tried to get him to go away because my son was there. but he wasnt listening. he though i was there. (which of course i was) and again because she essentially tried to break up with him that day, he had all kinds of thoughts in his head. 

she didnt go into to much detail of what else happened. he tried talking to her, but she was so exhausted that day that she had a hard time staying awake. and i guess he eventually left.

she told me this as she was crying. but at the same time she said she wanted to be honest with me, as well because it affected our son.

it took a lot of energy to hold back my anger, to keep my mouth shut. 

but i realized that now, the first thing my wife needed, was a safe harbor. that going dark may jeapordize her safety and the saftey of my son.

i guess ill have to wrry about that first, then the marriage after.


that said, we know whats going to happen if he lays a finger on my son. as well the OMX would love to hear about this in terms of the custory battle.

i also informed my wife of her power in this. how she could file a restraining order. how she can file a sexual harrasment claim.

she wants to see if hell back off like he said. 

i told her that hes already crossed the line, hes not going backwards. he wont back off, hes as much said it with the whole "not the kinda guy you send away" line.

but at this point ive no choice but keep a watchful eye on the situaltion.


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## 8yearscheating

Keep your cool. Your restraint last night deserves serious praise. Keep it up. She will take that safe harbor soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

elph said:


> looks like there was more to last night than i knew of.
> 
> i got home after my son was dropped off and my wife let me in on more of last night.
> 
> she had gotten those texts and phone calls before i left. but there was one more.
> 
> "im coming over"
> 
> 
> this was at 1030. he arrived there. while my son was there. he was appearnetly furious. she said shed never seen the look in his eyes before. she tried to get him to go away because my son was there. but he wasnt listening. he though i was there. (which of course i was) and again because she essentially tried to break up with him that day, he had all kinds of thoughts in his head.
> 
> she didnt go into to much detail of what else happened. he tried talking to her, but she was so exhausted that day that she had a hard time staying awake. and i guess he eventually left.
> 
> she told me this as she was crying. but at the same time she said she wanted to be honest with me, as well because it affected our son.
> 
> it took a lot of energy to hold back my anger, to keep my mouth shut.
> 
> but i realized that now, the first thing my wife needed, was a safe harbor. that going dark may jeapordize her safety and the saftey of my son.
> 
> i guess ill have to wrry about that first, then the marriage after.
> 
> 
> that said, we know whats going to happen if he lays a finger on my son. as well the OMX would love to hear about this in terms of the custory battle.
> 
> i also informed my wife of her power in this. how she could file a restraining order. how she can file a sexual harrasment claim.
> 
> she wants to see if hell back off like he said.
> 
> i told her that hes already crossed the line, hes not going backwards. he wont back off, hes as much said it with the whole "not the kinda guy you send away" line.
> 
> but at this point ive no choice but keep a watchful eye on the situaltion.


Praying for your family Elph, stay strong, be alert, pray and all will work out.


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## turnera

You may want to let the police know in advance.


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## 8yearscheating

That is a good idea Tunera. Making a brief stop at the local station and giving them a heads up your worried this guy might get violent with her becuase she trying to break off an affair with him, primes the pump so no matter bull he says if something happens, it will seriously questioned!


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## ItHappenedToMe

Elph, wasn't it part of the separation agreement that the OM COULD NOT BE THERE when your son was? Now that your wife has voilated it, doesn't that mean that your son does NOT go over there any more? 

Aren't there other repercussions, too?

If you need NCL examples, go to Affaircare.com and they have several under their "articles."

Scarlet


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## elph

the separation agreement hasnt been quite drawn up yet. as my wife still needs to talk to the mediator and set the schedule( per the mediators suggestion)

were not quite at NC yet. in fact were still far away. my wife is trying to handle this the passive way.. hoping things will iron themselves out on their own. 

they wont. but she wont listed to me. 

the only thing i can do is protect my son. 

i dont thing ill have a problem with the mediator stuff. especially now. 

the one thing she mentioned to our mutual friend which was relayed to me was that right now any talk of any future needs to stop, just because it adds to much pressure. which of course is odd, because not a month or so ago she was talking about a bunch of what ifs. but better to comply with something i aready knew. 


as much as i want to go no contact, i now have to be involved for both their safety. but im still going forth with my plan of moving on. im still trying to detatch emotionally since i have to, and heal myself for what ever may lie ahead.


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## turnera

Maybe you should suggest - strongly - that your son stay with you until this is ironed out. Maybe THAT will make her less passive about it.


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## ItHappenedToMe

:iagree: Yeah turnera!

I understand the message you received from the friend. It's one thing for HER to talk about the future, because she's trying to sound things out/work it out in her head. 

It's completely ANOTHER for YOU to talk about the future, because YOU are fixing things/maybe dictating things and she just wants a sounding board. 

It's the difference of how M/F process. Interestingly, Modern Family had Phil discovering this difference last night. Knowing when to supportively agree and when to solve the problem for her is like the intuitive use of 'The Force!' If you want, check ABC.com for the episode. Might help you understand! At least make you laugh. Chaulk it up to art imitating life...if a TV show can be considered 'art!'


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## elph

well, it looks like its been a month so i thought i throw down an update.

ive been working on detaching since that night. enforcing the fact that if hes in her life, i am not. 

its been a rough road. 
my wife took a leave of absence from work to sort her stuff our.
weve kept any contact and conversation to just about our son.
we also have had a revamped schedule so that she gets more time with our son, and conversley less time to be around the OM.
its been hard to know about things because she lives on her own, but at this point there are only a day or two a week they can maybe be together...of course they can text, but shes been on the ball about not having the om around with my son, because she knows what ill do if it happens.

that said, our son started preschool last week and we both wanted to be there. on his first day, we were the only "husband/wife" there. in fact you still couldnt tell there is problems. her birthday was the same day. i didnt give her anything, but i helped my son make something for her.

and then last week happened. 
thursday night on the way to a friends house to go out to dinner for her birthday, she got in a car accident. she was hit on the passenger side. and while there wasnt much damage, she seemed to have been affected. she claims not to have been on the phone at the time. (cell records confirm) and the intersection where she got hit has a notorius blind spot. (didnt see other car comting because of line of trucks on the street in the way)

anyway, she walked away unscathed physically, but emotionally shes been a wreck. she knows she hasnt been focused, that her concentration was off. she began to think what would have happened if our son had been in the car. it seemed to hit her to the core. 

i didnt arrive at the accident, but her friend did and her mom did. (i had son for night) as well i found out she called the om, who wanted to bail on his kids for the night to see if she was okay, but there would ve been hell with her friend and mom there, so he was told to stay away. during her traumatized state she told both of them how she needed to end it and she had to tell him etc.

the next night he came over to his house (hoping to get his booty call on at this point), and she told him. 

at this point she, in her words, "dumped" him. he told her that he want planning on quiting and asked if that made him selfish, to which she responded yes. that shes decided to focus on herself and her son. and shes going to ask for an additional month off to cope and avoid contact with him for now.

i dont think she has a plan for when shes going to return. she doesnt totally want to do this either, but she realizes that its what she needs to do. especially for her son. she also hasnt made any kind of commitment to return to the marriage. so i have no say as to the normal things i would ask for.


and thats the thing that kinda bugs me right now.

shes apparently had some sort of epiphany. and is trying to break away from the affair (and currently going through the withdrawal phase) and shes doing it for her sons sake.

but part of me is selfish. i wish she was doing it because the affair was wrong, and that she wanted to be with me. part of me thinks that because she isnt doing this 100% of her own accord, that eventually there will be resentment and lingering feelings.
and of course i wish i was the reason. i mean ill take what ever it takes to end it, but my ego wont just let it go.

is it wrong to feel that way?
if shes truly trying to end it, and she has a nice support system in place, what should i do to help her with the withdrawl syptoms?
ive already done what i can to show her what kind of guy i am and what kind of marriage she can comeback to, yet been distancing myself for my sake. or should i just leave her alone?


i know where her focus is, and when i went to pick my son up for a haircut, she started crying because she was sad but trying to fight through it. (nothng worse that watchin your wife cry over another man

anyway that that, an thanks for the help

the past few days have been a struggle for her, but she trying to stick to her guns. (i dont know exactaly how shes doing)


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## Eli-Zor

Thanks for the update. Be patient always assume she won't come back and plan your life such. I suspect this is round one of a breakup with OM there may be round two or even three , the OM as you described him on the past is not going to let go and the only person who can is her . The pressure on her as a single mom is going to climb and as there is continued family intervention it makes contact with OM less . The hormones will burn out over time . Every bit of pressure on her is a good thing as she has to face reality.

You can do very little for her unless she decides to commit to the boundaries of marriage .

Keep heathy for no matter how this goes you are going to need it to help you through the days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

i also want to add that she finally admitted to her aunt that she hasnt been following the advice that her therapist has been giving her, but now hopefully that will start to change...


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## morituri

Your wife doesn't see you sexually as a man but simply as the father of her son. Interestingly, women are often sexually attracted to a man whom they see is in a relationship with another woman. Don't try to make sense of it, just know that is is a fact with a great majority of women. If you don't believe me then look at Ing's situation in which he has already moved on but his wayward wife is now wanting to return to him, in large part, because he now is in a committed relationship with another woman. Am I telling you to start a committed relationship with another woman before the divorce is signed? Of course not, I'm simply stating an observation.


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## elph

Trust me morituri, your observation has been in my mind for the past week or so. As I detach I find that I may want to make new friends who happen to be attractive and of the opposite sex. 

At the same time, my wife has made comments about the changes I've made physically. Both in terms of working out, and wardrobe. Though I take her complements with a grain of salt. After all she finds the OM attractive, and he's a chud. So I question her tastes. 

At the end of the day, making friends of the opposite sex would defiantly rasie my value in her eyes. I think Athol covered it in his book how the effect works

Women are funny creatures that way. Now if I only had time
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

and as i anticipated, her break up with him didnt last long.

on tues she told me he text her asking to come over. she said she told him, "did you forget what we talked about the other day"

but by wedesday she was back to the same old speech, "doing what everybody else wants" and her being miserable..


funny but i thought she was doing it for her son. we got into a nother long lengthy "discussion". about how she doesnt even call him her boyfriend or have a name for the relationship, i asked what does he call you? his girlfriend?...she said its "gay". i told her that when we were boyfrind/girlfriend we ewre walking around proud.

her response. "its because we were doing it the right way"
then she went off to her therapy. 
saw her the next day to drop my son off, and she starts with a "i know theres no future and its not going to last, but i have to do this on my own"

WTF. its like standing on train tracks and seeing thetrain coming and not moving anyway. she finally admitted that thye have gone out on dates, but no where fancy (she declined to say where, but more on that later). wither way, they were back together, so everybody (family, friends) is pissed off at her again. 

two days later a NFL team shirt that she ordered came in (bucs) she was excited, despite the fact that i told her were not friends and that i dont care. she sent me a pic of it on. being in a jerk mood i made some comment about how it looked to small and and sheer and that herr boyfriend would enjoy that even though he doesnt like sports (loser fact #1). she the responded that theyll always be our team. and she misses watching football with me. then she sent me a pic of lifting said shirt of while showing off the girls. WTF? i asked her what was that for, and she said just because...

2 days later we were supposed to go to the zoo on sun, but instead i made it a father son trip. she lost her sht. because she really wanted to go. she was firing off on all cylinders, name calling, blaming, but she started off with her usual line...

"if you thought we were going to get back together then this....."

was the latest deal breaker (shes said it 3 times previous for other things) 

and then she went there...

im going to get my own lawyer, im filing for divorce. 

at that point i just said fine. go ahead, i give up. im over this. my therapist has said that i need to work on myself and regain who i am, and thats what im doing. 

she was taken aback and had no response. i told her to go ahead and file. it doesnt make a difference to me any more. im tired of deaing with this crap, and im not going to tolerate it. get a lawyer an file and well work it all out nad go our seperate ways. i then didnt here from her for the rest of the afternoon. 
i dropped him off that night and we didnt say much to each other than an update about our son and his day. her girlfriend was over there at the time just keeping her company. she left the same time i did. 

i was goin over to her girlfriends house the next day to watch football with her husband (were friends too) and she decided to show up with our son so he and their daughtere could play for the day and make cupcakes. and then she acted like nothing was wrong. but i had to reiterate that i wasnt trying to be a jerk, but if your talking to him, your not to me. end of story. and again, if your gonna file, file. ive accepted that the marriage is over and that theres nohope of us getting back together...

she looked suprised by my words. but remained cordial till it was time to leave.

and thats hw its been. she got back togehter or something with him. and were back to square one.

except its different this time. Im letting go. ive done all i can. i know that shes got 3 more break ups in her before it s final. i know that itll happen before the holidays. but i just have no desire to be around her right now. too much anger and frustration. and im starting to hate her at this point, and i done t want to, if anything for my son...

but ive dont all i can. 

time to start scheduling some me time and me events. do stuff ive always wanted to do. meet some new people. time to let go and move on. and if she comes back, fine, if not, well i have no control. ive given it up...i hope i can make it stick...





funny story too...her girlfriend was talking to me after we left and she relayed a story about them and some of thier "dates".
she said when it was time to go out to dinner soemtimes, he would call her and said to not bother and come over to his moms house because she had cooked dinner already. (loser fact #2)

i kid you not.
we already knew he was a mommas boy. and the STBXW called this one months ago. how he would fall into the patterns that bugged her about his family. and my wife wasnt just telling her friend that, she was complaining for sure. and its hilarious...

it reinvigorates me to really improve myself, not only to become better person, but to show her what shes giving up...and that i can cook my own meals..


what shes dong is beyond me, but im at the point where im just laughing and yet feeling a little pity because shes stupid enough to put herself through this...


----------



## morituri

If there is any justice to marital betrayal is how many times the unfaithful spouse trades down instead of up. Her ego has been stroked by POSOM (piece of sh*t OM) pursuing her and a loving husband who has shown a desire to forgive and reconciliate. Sadly for her she will end up like many cheating wives with neither husband nor lover.


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## Eli-Zor

You need to find a way of not responding to her, part of what is happening is she still has enough contact with you that then brings up conflict and she is able to rationalise that the OM is better. You have to work out a way of going dark and not being I'm her circle.

Work on yourself, assume she is not comming back, in your words and deeds prepare for a future without her. It may still work out or it may not , from what I have seen there is a greater chance of divorce once one person moves out of the house unless something radical happens. At the moment your wife is still feeding off you and seeing you enough not to feel the total loss of you in her life.

I suggest you draw a timeline as to when you want to formalise this , do not share this with anyone except your lawyer, if or when you take the step it must be unexpected and on your terms. You cannot sit back and be your wifes backup plan , she is currently content because she gets to play and knows in her heart you are there for her. You need to decide when to pull that security rug away from her. What is important for you is to do this when you are ready , she has no say in the timing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sam83

why don't u go and file first if u really let go this time why letting here decide when she is the cheater u should be the one who end this mess


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## elph

sam83 said:


> why don't u go and file first if u really let go this time why letting here decide when she is the cheater u should be the one who end this mess


I filed for separation a while ago. She keeps using the whole I change it to divorce thing as a threat. 

She can't afford a lawyer. And she's waiting on the estimate for her car accident. They may total it, which means shell have to get a new car after all the insurance stuff is taken care off. And that's more money. 

The reality is she's fence sitting big time. But I'm not taking it anymore and she's scared. She's lashing out. Shes afraid I won't be there when it fizzles out, something she knows is going to happen. It's quite sad and pathetic at this point. She's acting like a little spoiled child trying to have it all. 

Shell soon realize that if she continues, shell have nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sam83

I hope soon enough for ur own sake or else move on and find some one deserve ur love 

best of luck for u man


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## turnera

Go to cozi.com and set up an account for your son. Hand her the URL and password and tell her that, from now on, ALL COMMUNICATION about your son will be done ON THAT SITE. Tell her that you will not be communicating with her any more. 

And then DO IT!


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## elph

nice idea, but she niether uses a smartphone or has a computer...nor is she looking to get one. she just uses the one i have when she watches my son at my place (he loves his back yard ans such) 
and thats fine by me, she gets a computer, it would be just another way to go underground if she ever really figures things out...


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## elph

alll righty then...

so another update...


i found out a little later that during that zoo trip i mentioned, while we were at the zoo, she went to target/home depot with him...and his mom!

now shes often said that hes a mommas boy, but she really got a taste of it first hand. they rode in her minivan, and asa they talked she said it was like she wasnt even there, and when they went to check out, he was ilse away and came dashing to help her unload her cart...all while forgetting about my wife...she said it was quite the eye opener...

after that i hadnt talked to her much, except about our son...


last weekend was out 7th anniversary (or what should have been). she had our son and i was left to wallow. she had a couple of her girlfriends over to bake with their kids....and talk.

i found out the next day that she had broken up with him...again. but this time is seeming ly different the day after she got into a nother huge fight with him where he basically called her crazy and that she needed to heal becuse she was broken...

and she vented abit as well....

and the final little punchline....he was seen being a little too friendly with a coworker, who is basically a young, thinner version of his ex...nothing confirmed, but when she has questoned him, hes dodged them big time....

so this week shes been struggling a bit to get threw the withdrawl phase. theres been no sighn of going back, and everyday she tells me how getting stronger and all this other crap...she hasnt talked to him, and if she get the urge she has a note on her phone that reminds her that its all a game and he really doesnt care...

shes shown no signs of coming back to the marriage...but one step at a time i guess...

theres a bunch of other stuff im leaving out becasse im getting tired and cant remember them all

but thats it so far..i continue to work on my self, just in case, and keeping an eye...


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## Eli-Zor

Thanks, my thoughts are: you are still to close to her and her fantasy. She is building herself up to walk away from both you and the OM . I suggest while working on you start hardening the boundaries and work on ways to force more and more no contact with her . 

She is pretending she is single with your blessing , the sessions she has with her therapist is at your expense and is for her to move on without you. She is no longer your wife nor is she your friend . If she divorces you how are you going to behave ? As her friend who has free access to your home , act like you are divorced and step away from her .

Be prepared for the worst and do not support or communicate with her unless it is for your son .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

The best way to get her to care about you again is for you to turn your back on her.


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## elph

Eli-Zor said:


> Thanks, my thoughts are: you are still to close to her and her fantasy. She is building herself up to walk away from both you and the OM . I suggest while working on you start hardening the boundaries and work on ways to force more and more no contact with her .
> 
> She is pretending she is single with your blessing , the sessions she has with her therapist is at your expense and is for her to move on without you. She is no longer your wife nor is she your friend . If she divorces you how are you going to behave ? As her friend who has free access to your home , act like you are divorced and step away from her .
> 
> Be prepared for the worst and do not support or communicate with her unless it is for your son .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i see where your coming from with this, but in the past week she has done nothing but tried to fill her time to help her get through this. including scheduling a whole bunch of family based events...

the holidays are coming up. my wifes favorite time of year. and while i agree, she isnt my "wife" in terms of her mindset right now. she definitely sees me as her friend. (her best friend in her words, something the OM has had a huge problem with, something he vented to a coworker he didnt know i was in contact with)

that said, i agree with tunera, and it it was said by rob x, who was quoted it the "let her go" thread, from another forum entirely. 

his whole premise is sound as a pound, and something ive been using to various degrees with pretty interesting results (like me taking my son to the zoo)

in reality as shes healing, she doenst see me as an attractive altrnative at this point till shes through it. but after that, i have a chance to bring her back into the fold and we can work from there


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## turnera

Do you know what the biggest mistake is that a man can make when he wants a woman to desire him?

It's to be her friend.

Especially after they have once been lovers.

If you get pigeonholed into the Friend Zone, you'll never get out.

Tell her 'I love you, I want you, but I can't and won't be your friend while you test the waters with other men.' 

And then walk away.


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## elph

totally agree!

and as said as much, although it was 'as long as hes in your life, im not"

the thing is, there have been times when she talked to me, or made comments, that weren't just made with a friendly connotation. and were pretty much flirting. ( commenting on how ive been working out, look more defined or bigger. texted me her in a new outfit she got both with and without top)

sure, it could very well be cake eating, but she does know im serious about moving on. shes gonna heal from her break up, but she knows i may not stay around and is aware that its what me and my therapist have been working on.

ive dont my best to meet her emotional needs, but my needs havnet been met, and why not try and do so, after all, thats whet she did..

that said, im also balancing keeping a decent family life, esp. for my soon, who i think is just too young to deal with it.


that said, hes made several comments to her about coming home and leaving her place because he doesnt like it (of course he also says she doesnt have enough toys, so what can you do...hes 4)


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## turnera

The thing is, when she flirts with you, it's a perfect time to make your point - get a truth dart at her. "I really enjoy times like this, but it reminds me that what I want is a wife who will take me seriously and treat me with respect. You have done neither. Gotta go."

Leave her wanting more.


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## sadcalifornian

elph said:


> in reality as shes healing, she doenst see me as an attractive altrnative at this point till shes through it. but after that, i have a chance to bring her back into the fold and we can work from there


Your tenacity and optimism never cease to amaze me. No one knows our future, but I like your attitude.


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## elph

sadcalifornian said:


> Your tenacity and optimism never cease to amaze me. No one knows our future, but I like your attitude.


you know whats funny, my wife hasa often said (and i agree with) that my greatest strength and biggest weakness is my tenacity/stubbornness depending on what side of the coin your on. 

i have my mother to thank.
i cant stand her most of the time, but the one thing she gave me, more than anything else (besides life) was the determination to never give up. 

i had to learn the difference though between quitting, and quitting while your ahead...


and really, it can be seen either way. that i have that much faith in my knowledge of my wife and how affairs go that i know how its going to turn out...


or im too stubborn or stupid to let it go the right way and move on.

some days i feel like the latter, but most days i feel like the former.

not gonna lie, its tough as hell. and when the triggers kick in, or i start thnking about the intimacy thing...it messes up my day...

but ive learned alot...maybe one day ill make a kick ass thread, but until then...


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## sadcalifornian

Best of luck to you, elph.


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## elph

i think im getting to the point of weekly updates with the hope that they get more and more positive as we go along...
and why. i dont know. there seems to be less turmoil, and im hoping what progress i go through can help anybody see that there are so many variations of how affairs go, so many differenet details. and so many ways to handle it..

yet at the same time, the script seems to remain the same. the progression, the statistics...


as well, it just helps to get this stuff out. 

i also want to say, that this forum has been immensly helpful and positive and supportive (unlike others that i have visited) thank you to the members, the links, and the patience.


here we go...

it seems that she has done a fairly good job at trying to distance herself from the OM. for the record, still shows no sign of coming back to the marriage, so i cant be ultra inquisitive and make demands like id want to, but there is progress.
she is continuing her leave of absence from work. this may continue into early dec. after then shell have to face the music. 

shes telling coworkers and her supervisor that is it over. that she realized there is no future. i still think she harbors feeling for him, but there is nothing i can do at this point. but i think hes going to do the work for me...
he contacts her every couple of days, she tries to ignore him, but hes enlisted his sister to try to do some of the talking for him. 
but hes made things worse for himself.

i mentioned that he was seen fraternizing with a coworker. its an unconfirmed relationship, but hes been extremely defensive, and theyve gotten in a few fights since. but the big kicker is the one who "leaked" the info is one of our good friends. when my wife brought up the incident with him he started asking who told her, but she gave nothing up. he has since asked around his whole staff to try and figure it out. hes tried to ask questions on the sly, so worried about who the leak was. he finally confronted our friend who is the leak (but hes still not sure) and basically threatened to expose him. with what we dont know. as well, his girlfriend works at the same store, so thats unleashed a whole new set of problems for him. and in my wifes view, not only made him look like a total ass, but wonders why hes acting so defensive if nothings going on with the other female coworker...
as well, that same friend has gone to his boss (hes a vendor for her job) and the OMs HR department because the way the OM approched him could very easily be considered harrasment/bullying.

so thats ongoing, and with every text he looks worse and worse. 

that said, ive had to just keep my mouth shut and let it happen. let it continue to "die a natural death". as the holidays grow closer itll be hard not to do things with her, just because of our son, whos birthday is also right around the corner. but i am trying to still create a little bit of distance and filling my freetime with my own personal endevors. ive revamped my workout to give myself that extra oomph. knowing that not only is it helping my confidance (which is still kinda low) but is also getting my mind right if/when i begin to date. (which there has been an increase in random conversations with members of the female kind) 


well see how halloween goes...but my son is finally into it, and he got his real first case of candy...


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## sadcalifornian

Hang in there. I don't know whether you will get your W back or not. But, I see you as such a decent guy with class and fighting spirit, and no matter which way the dice falls, you will be OK. Keep you in my prayers.


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## Eli-Zor

Keep looking after yourself , thats all you can do for now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

elph said:


> knowing that not only is it helping my confidance (which is still kinda low) but is also getting my mind right if/when i begin to date. (which there has been an increase in random conversations with members of the female kind).


I made some real good female friends 6 months after my divorce who are also now friends with my girlfriend. While I enjoy spending time with my male buddies, the competitiveness between us can sometimes get to be a bit too much at times. So it's like a breath of fresh air when I get to spend some time talking to one of my female best friends about other non-sport related stuff.

Keep the non-sexual, non-romantic conversations with women going. Take it from me, nothing helps the poor battered male ego better than having a fun conversation with a good and kindly woman.


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## elph

somebody asked me for an update on how things were doing so i thought id throw it in here...


since my last update, everything seemed to be going good. my wief had apperently broken the affair, and we were talking. not to much because i was weary...

then right after thanksgiving i got that in the gut feeling again. 

she accidently left her cell acct. info in our sons travel bag. so i was able to log on....and i found out that things died down for a week or so, but then they were texting all over again. like things were normal. she was held accountable during that time for her location between me and her family, so out side of work the posibility of them getting together was like 5% chance. but the texting kept going.

i confronted my "wife" at that point on the phone while she was at work

now mind you she still hasnt recommitted to the marriage yet then, or now for that matter

she broke down then and there and said shed do anything to not lose me in her life (not husband or marriage though)

i found out later that day she went up to him in front of several employees and yelled and screamed at him that he ruined her life na d to leave her alone.

a few days later she changed her cell phone number and gave me the passwords to access the acct. 

now around that time the OM got in to/harrased a vendor who supplies the grocery store they work at (the vendor is also a good friend of mine too.)

a week later he got into a verbal altercation with an 80 year old customer to the point where the OM had to be held back (the man was also a freind of the family)

and then finally the day after she changed her number i called HR to let them know what she had done. they came in a week later to interview all but the OM. that same day he emailed his superiors and requested a transfer (out of emotional duress, which he later revoked 2 days later)

the holidays went well. she seems to be over or working past the situation, she disconnect her land line at night (verified by random calls from me)

but at the same time HR hasnt done squat and they are still working together. 
several employees that i know keep me updated on the situation. and a handful of people have let me know that he keeps trying to come up to her and talk to her and she walks away and wont take no for an answer.

as recently as 2 weeks ago. shes had several people walk her to her car to avoid him.


however, again they still work together. 

he isnt that special at his job, so either hr is just lagging or she spoke on his behalf. although not really actively. i know what your gonna say, then if he keeps bothering her, why doenst she just tell HR again, since its basically and sex harrasment case waiting to happen. 
1. shes passive. shes as much said that she doenst want to be the one to get somebody transfered or fired. but that inexcusable and crap because the OM would do it in a sec.
2. she sstill talking to him one way or another and it would comeback to bite her in the butt.


the reality is her actions still prove her decision. as lost and confused as she says she is, i think its more her identity and her perecption of her in my eyes.

i think shes very much still emotionally attached, if not involved. but her head is telling her other wise , as well as our son.

she is guilty until proven, and while nothing has shown up on her cell phone, there are still othr means.

my therapist has told me that the relationship is pretty much dead. if not physically, it died when i exposed it and they justhavent figured it out yet. 

my wife has broken up with him 5 times in the span of 4 months, and he just wont leave her alone. that said shes said something to him to keep him pursuing.

shes trying to break the addiction. shes listed dozens of reasons vs a hand ful as to stay or go.

but i think its her shame and pride that keeps the mess still going.

the only thing is i cant prove that shes talking to him.

but i shouldnt have to . she should prove to me that she isnt. if she wants to regain my trust. and she has tried, but its been more defensive and rug sweeping guilt vs remorse and returnt o the marriage.

so ive had no course but to truly drop the rope.

the past couple weeks weve only really seen each other for drop off s and pickups, and her moms birthday. 
and she seems a little afraid. 
complementing me on my haircut.
wearing jewelry i got her years ago i havent seen in a while.giving me dinner to take home when i pick my son up.

yet she still lives on her own. 

i know she doesnt want back in the house i live in and is maybe waiting me to move . (ill be short selling it soon)

but more than likely she is still emotionally attached to him and not attracted to me.

at this point it doesnt matter. i have no control anymore. it took my therapist months to get that through my head, i can only control myself. 

and i have new wardrobe for the new year. ive been working out like crazy (derailded during the holidays, you know how that goes) and actually alomost had a date with this hot young thing from jamba juice, but i chickend out and couldnt close the deal, but it felt good anyway.

ive come to terms that ive done all i can. im just going to focus on my self and my son. (which i have 5 nights of the week) ill be moving soon. and really cant do anything else. shell either want to comeback or she wont. (my therapist says its just a matter of time and the turn around may be quick)


she still hasnt filed the response papers as well.




i have to say this though. 

i wished i wouldve followed some of the advice i got here and on another site (check the letting go thread, theres a link there to the robX stuff)

i think that that really has the most effect. that said, before all of this i did my best to meet her emotional needs. esp when i though they had broken up. i showed her that i had gotten back to what made her fallin love with me, as well as figuring out what our main issues were. the setup to comeback couldnt be anybetter.


or the setup for another woman couldnt be better either.


----------



## elph

But ive learned this.

and affair will break you down. make you question everything about yourself. from the biggest to the smallest. every aspect of your relationship and your person.

i questioned the physical, the mental, the spirtual, the sexual.

and at the end of the day, you have to find it in yourself to rebuild yourself. by yourself. become stronger. become confident again.


that will be the key to finding love again. with your wife or someone else.


during that, try what you can. the 180 is a great start. and at the same time, LET GO.


let them go. let go of control. you have none, save yourself. thats where the focus needs to be.

i had spies everywhere, software on the cell. and it drove me mad. i was never this way, and the affair turned me into somebody i didnt like.

no wonder she didnt want to come back.

i became a controlling whining sniviling little *****. 

in a lot of ways i was no better than the vagina she was dating.


so you have to let go of that, let them go and let them fall on thier face. then only if they comeback, re engage the spying BS to confirm. but remember, they are guilty until they prove themselves innocent. 

and most of the scripts/statistics seem to be correct. theyre always exceptions. and most of the time the exceptions are how the BS handles it and sets a precedence for recovery or not.

im open to it. for my son,and because quite frankly, i still love her and want to continue our journey together. but i wont die if it doesnt.

im becomeing an alpha again, 


(of which websites like roissey (cheatau heartiste) and Athol (married man sex life) and some of their ilk have definatly helped me regain my confiedence and composure.


thats all i got so far, but im sure something else will pop into my head later.


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## MrQuatto

So Elph, it's been over 9 months now. You've been up and you've been down, then down more, then down even more.

After all that time, I don't see where things have changed for the better for you. I don't see where you are reconciling or divorcing, it seems youa re in a sort of limbo here. 

Am I missing something here? You say let go and I agree but I have seen that philosophy form you on more than one occasion. So WHERE ARE YOU?

Are you simply staying and hoping for the best, or filing or going for R or what here? A life in limbo is no life at all my friend.

Q~


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## elph

true enough, 

everytime she broke up with him, we (and by we i mean her family too) did all we can to support her and help her heal , knowing that if she was away from him that would hopefully get her out of the fog completely, and shed want to come back to the marriage. 


and she was good at it too.

a few weeks after she moved out she broke up and he came by . (his "im not the kind of guy you just send away" speech)
after her birthday, she said she did it for her son. 
on our anniversary, she knew there was no future.
and then the after thanksgiving breakup with the cell number change.


each time she lured me back.
each time i wanted to believe she was going to heal.
each time she had talked about a possible future.
each time, she did just enough to convince us it was over.

and each time he would pull her back in. or she would choose to not give him up.


each time i wanted to believe that she was a good person.


each time i was wrong. 

she would say how deep down she knew what was right, yet her heart kept her going back to him. she seemd determined to drive the car till the wheels fell off.

and each time i would be there in waiting.


then new years came and i said i was tired of being in limbo, wither were married or were not.

and each time we fought shed bring up the old..."if you though we were going to get back together, now this changes it". i cant tell you how many times i heard that. 

like i said, she hasnt even filed her response papers yet.

im not living in limbo.

the way i look at it is im a free agent. i go to the "highest bidder"

if its her, then she has to prove that she wants me to be her starting QB (and her my tight end...sorry, couldnt help it)

if not, then fine, i move on...or till then, i go play in the canadian league....no worries.ive got plenty on my plate for the new year. thinking of going back to school too. so the relationship is the least of my worries. i cant work on it by myself....


so yes, ive said this before.i was fooled, much like a bunch of has been. because we all want to believe. 


the only thing i believe now is that my wife isnt a special little snowflake...she just like everybody else...


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## bryanp

No consequences to their actions equals no motivation to change. Where should she change since there are no consequences? She has a husband who is constantly willing to endure humiliation and disrespect time and time again. The old definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results.

If the roles were reversed do you think she would have continued to accept this constant humiliation and disrespect from you? I doubt it. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


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## elph

heres the thing though...

everytime, pretty much, she broke up with him of her own accord,save the last time.

she did it...on her own. 

i didnt threaten her. i didnt encourage her. 

the only thing i said to her those times was, if hes in your life, im not.


it was only the last time when she did something to distance her self from him.

but as ive learned, its like any other addiction. you need a bigger high each time because youve grown acustomed to the it.

each time she did just enough to prove to us that it was over. listed a long list of what was wrong with him and his family. things he had said. , 

the last time she said she had though that they could be friends.

even her therapist has told her to go cold turkey...

the only thing weve been willing to do is help her heal. 

oddly enough she has several cousins whove gone through AA, and they all say the same thing....she has to hit rock bottom. 

they can tell shes trying to get out of it and break the cycle....theyve been there before, just with alcohol...

as of the last two weeks ive been trying to intoduce those consequences, our son has, in his own way as well.


she took a leave of absence sept-nov, for what we thought was to get a way and heal as well...we were all lied to...

at the same time she bonded with our son pretty good...

however the past month thats all been erased...hes a smart little 4 yr old and me and him have become so much closer...its like hes chosen me...and she knows it, and thats breaking her heart...

shes tried to stay the night to hang out with him and me, to no avail. shes tried to have me come over and fix stuff, to no avail.


im just not there any more. and my son is withdrowing from her to.


part of me hopes they both get transfered...heck, i kinda wish shed lose her job.

shed blame me, but we all know the truth..


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## Chaparral

The thing is one day this is allgoing to sink in and you will look at her like" Who the hell are you and what do you want?"

Whether or not she comes back inthe future, stopping with the OM doesn't mean anything. At this pace she will be seeing other guys before you see other women.

You can kill two birds with one stone. Go out onsome dates. Actually, by you sitting home al lthe time ,you are making yourself unattractive to your wife. You are not in the race. She doesn't have to do anything to keep you in line, keep you attracted to her.

You are really holding back reconiling or moveing on by sitting aronud waiting. You say you are moving on and what you have done is great, except fopr this one fatal flaw. You need to go out on some dates and then let her know you have with out being obvious of course.

Right now she thinks you can't live without her no matter how she acts/talks.

The best defenses a good offense. Time for you to quit sitting on the bench, get up to bat and start swinging the bat.

At the rate you are going now, I don't believe she will ever come back unless you do something. Jealousy is a prime motivator among people, especially women. Hell, there ready to go after each others throat over a pair of shoes.


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## elph

Yeah. I'm gonna hit that jamba juice up this week. Hopefully the girl will be working there. 

And I know what your saying. I remember in that link for the letting go thread where they had this great debate whether one should date or not. And an argument can. E made for or against. Morality. Legally, what have you. 

And it's tough when you don't feel like your quite there yet. I'd say I'm 85% But still hesitant. And quite frankly a little afraid. I mean it's. BEen 17 yrs since I date someone other than my wife. And that was in high school. I sucked at it then. Thought I'd. Ever have to deal with it again. And yet here I am. 


Soon enough I'm sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

The only caveat with dating is to keep it light and easy. The purpose is to have fun and not get into a rebound relationship. If the women you date know this, they'll be more apt to respect you for they will know that you have no hidden agenda with them.


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## turnera

I would (1) contact HR again and ask them why they didn't separate them and hint that you may, as her husband, consider legal action for the company's inaction to stop the sexual harassment (they hate that!), and (2) let her know your timeline is up and you are preparing to move on; that you've started noticing other women, so you know it's time to throw in the towel and get the legal papers in order. Then DO move on and see if she runs to catch up. Either way, you've got closure.


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## Eli-Zor

turnera said:


> I would (1) contact HR again and ask them why they didn't separate them and hint that you may, as her husband, consider legal action for the company's inaction to stop the sexual harassment (they hate that!), and (2) let her know your timeline is up and you are preparing to move on; that you've started noticing other women, so you know it's time to throw in the towel and get the legal papers in order. Then DO move on and see if she runs to catch up. Either way, you've got closure.


Agree and I suggest you start acting as if you are divorced , she is not your friend nor does she have access to your house. Go as far as you have , she will have to choose quickly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Carry on focusing on you as she has left you no choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

The one thing about contacting hr again is this. I don't know if she hasn't contacted hr on his behalf or at bare minimum asked him. OT to be transferred or tod them that she doesn't wanted to b the one who gets him transfered or fired. As well they know we're seperated, how can I act on her behalf to get that done. 

I don't want to go in bluffing. 

I'm assuming that theyre just waiting for one more complaint from her specifically. Since they know about the changed number they mayve given him a warning to leave her alone. The one thing I told them is that he's bothering her at home ( landline phone calls) and the rep told me they can't do anything about anything offsite. 

At this point I've. Been going with the other advice. I told her flat out, I'm not your friend. I'm your sons father. I'll do anything for him, but you've had your chance. It was set up to make it as easy as possible. (mind you by easy I mean my advancement on healing myself, she still would have to do the heavy lifting). I let her know that she had her chance. And have cut things down to bare minimum. 

My therapist also suggested 2 things. Look my best everytime I see her. And expect her to react angrily but take nothing less than her total submission. If not, it's not true remorse. That will be the key 

But really I'm. Not even looking for that now. If she comes back great. But it is time to get out there. Even if it's only casually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I would be contacting HR as a disgruntled spouse of THEIR EMPLOYEE, who had ANOTHER OF THEIR EMPLOYEES harass my wife.


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## morituri

File for divorce and have her served. Limit the contact and talk to only matters related to your son. You gain nothing by continuing with the status quo. It's time to cut your losses and move on with your life without her.


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## elph

Well I was at her house visiting my son. She called on the way back from her therapy and after I got off the phone with her I checked her caller Id. Sure enough he has called her several times last week 
I confronted her and she admitted to talking to him. 

I basically told her she f'd her self. HR was on her side. She could've gotten rid of him with a word. But since he calls from his cell he has records and can dispell anything she says. He's made himself invincible. So she'll have to deal. She had the audacity to tell me that when she's done she'll have no prob working there with him. She told me that shes no longer in love with him. She knows it's going to end soon and that her last two sessions have been really good. 

I laughed because if she knew it wasn't going to last then just end it now. I of course know that it's not that easy,brain chemicals and all. But still. 

Suffice to say I called the mediator today and have an appt for mon the 13. To start furthing the process. Shell get what she wants and I'll continue moving on 

Of course she wasn't happy when I told her. She said she's gonna get a lawyer and fight me on everything. Which is funny because everything's been decided for months Now. She asked me why we needed a mediator. That it's only there if your fighting. That we shouldn't need one. I reminded her that it's on step in the seperation process. 

She ten went on to tell me that if I didn't kick her out she probably would have ended it sooner. And asked again why we needed a mediator. It seemed like she wanted to avoid. 

I reminded her that he and I don't exsist in the same universe. She mentioned reconcilliation for the first time ever. I told her so long as they work together, so long as he's in her life in any capacity reconcilliation is IMPOSSILE!!! That I deserve to find somebody who wants to be with me. I'm tired of coming home to an empty house. I wanted reconcilliation and 
Are it as easy as possible ( by giving her the resources). Did what I could to get him out of there. 

Now she's out of chances. She has to transfer or get him transfered and beg for a second chance. 

It's sad and this valentines is gonna suck. But hey. Not my fault
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complexity

First of all, I'm so sorry you went through this elph, the heartache must've been unimaginable. 

You can't of reconciled with her being in love with another man, it's simply impossible. Most men would've gave up a VERY long time ago and she made a very bad character judgement by engaging with this individual. Even had you reconciled the feelings would've been there for a long time. A constant lingering thought of what if, anytime you have a hiccup in the relationship her mind will automatically revert to him. When the affair reaches a level where the cheating spouse falls in love with their affair partner, it's safe to conclude that this marriage is well and over. Their relationship however will not last, it's almost guaranteed. Like Mori says give her the divorce and move on with your life.

Valentine's day is here and you know what? it's just another day in the end.


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## MrQuatto

Any update Elph?


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## elph

Sorry. Been busy. 

Let's see, she cancelled mediation. Her excuse. She wanted her own representation. Which to date she still doesn't have. And still hasnt completely filed. 

Everything I hear from her is mostly a repeat of things she's been saying. How she's seeing more and more from him and her feelings are changing. Blah blah blah. 

I've been slowly creating more and more space. I try not to go over to to her place too early to pick my son up or on "her days". She's tried to spend the night on several occasions. It I've said no. Lotsa little changes that may or may not be getting to her. 

As well I've contacted a real estate agent to sell the house. I can't afford it on my own, and quite frankly am planning on moving back to our home town where she already lives to send our kid to school there. 

As well I've started apt hunting. She's says she wants to help me pack and find a place and such. She's sent me links to places that, while in the parameters of what I'm looking for, 2 bd 1 bath apt. The ones shes sent are over my budget by a couple hundred. No prob if I had a "roomate" but by my self a little tight. 

As sad as it is I'm also kinda excited to get my own place. A man place. 

At the same time her lease is up soon. And I was told by my mom in law that she's burning through her savings. 

As well he keeps pushing her to move in with him, near his mom ( who cooks. Leans and does laundry for him). But she hates where he lives. And doenst want to move in as well she knows what that'll mean for her and our son. 

So take from that what you will. The grass on the other side is sprouting weeds, while over here we've got a nice shady tree and might even see some beautiful flowers soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

You need to be looking for a new woman to go with your new home. Your wife couldn't treat you any worse if she tried.


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## bandit.45

Agreed. He's her puppy in a cage now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

you should move on. How can you trust her at all even if she gets back?


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## elph

At this point i think getting in a new relationship is not what I can handle. However anything else would be cool. 

As for trusting her. I wouldn't 100%. But that goes for all women now. But our shared history and our son work to her benefit if she's willing to do the heavy lifting if/when she wants back. 

That said, the ppl she work with and who "spy" for me tell me it isn't all puppy dogs amd rainbows. He's become needy amd clingy. Always hovering around her. He's pushing alright and it's been said that she's been pushing back. As well she got transferred out of her department that she loved working in to a different department. One she's not to find of. And she knows the affair has something to do with it. I don't think their relationship is gonna last. My therapist has said as much as well as all suppored info 



Oh one more thing I forgot, his soon to be ex told me about this thing be has called epididymitis. I told her about it because not only was I concerned but it could affect me. Oddly enough she didn't know he had it. She confronted him and boy did he not like it. Not to mention there was only one source. So he ended up texting his ex, who forwarded the text to me. It said please drop off kids at scheduled time, and please don't share my medical history with,,,(me). My case of epididymitis is my concern". Even tho it isn't. 
My wife found out about that text. The kicker is he told her that he laid in to his ex and put her her in her place. That he "handled" it. The reality is the text was the only communication they had. So she called him out on the text, the lie and the sharing of info. 
The ex got another text that said " you shared the text with ..(me). What's the point?"

He's become extremely cold to his ex, where he was trying to warm up to her a month ago. I know it doenst mean much. But now I'm in tha f'ers head. And that feels good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu

I just read this post. Im sorry Elf, she needs to go. The two of them deserve each other. Go and be happy.


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## elph

bandit.45 said:


> Agreed. He's her puppy in a cage now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd say from what I gather he's hardly been able to keep her in a cage. From what I understand he was used to calm fights with his ex. She would just walk away when it got to a point. My wife is quit the opposite. She's all spitfire and cursing and screaming. He can't handle her like I used to. I heard a voice mail he left once months ago after one of her lambasting. He sounded like a whiney little *****. Seriously. He was pandering and trying some passive aggressive manipulation stuff. Really weak stuff. Or as my wife said. He acts like a weenie. 

So different than I was. I might gotten a little beta after the birth of our son. But I was never that bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

But she's moving in with him while helping you find a place to live. My isn't that nice of her.

You see how fckd up that is don't you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

I don't know elph, it sure seems to me like you're still willing to wait around for her


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## elph

She isn't moving in with him. I'm sorry if I gave that impression 

She actually has no desire to move out of the city she lives in that's where we grew up and where we want our son to grow up. From what I've learned she's been telling him no its not going to happen. As well shed know that it would limit time with her son cuz there's no way in hell I'd let him around my boy. ESP after I learned how he is with his kids. 

The reference of how she's willing to help me move is one part guilt one part having a choice in where I move because she maybe thinking about where she'll move. Know what I mean. But it won't be that easy. Basically it's a sh1t test. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

Unless you can prove that the OM is a danger to your son, there is no way for you to legally prevent him from being around your son if your stbxw changes her mind and ultimately chooses to shack up with him.


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## elph

Almostrecovered said:


> I don't know elph, it sure seems to me like you're still willing to wait around for her


It may seem like it. But I've decided to not live in limbo anymore. If she decided to come back then there are things shell have to do. If not. Then she doesn't. Because we have a son well always have contact and its in his best interest that I act like an adult even if she isn't. 

As well, and as my therapist has said, I have an opportunity for growth. I should take advantage of it. Become a better person. It can only help me. And she'll either see it or somebody else will. I'm not gonna stop something from happening with someone else. But I'm not activly seeking it either. I'm starting to enjoy some of the quiet time I have to become a better person. 


At the end of the day, do I think well get back together? I'd say 75% chance. But so long as they're in contact, 0% chance. And I can't control that. Just myself. So that's what I'll worry about from here on out. The other stories. ( like the epididymitis just amuse me)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

morituri said:


> Unless you can prove that the OM is a danger to your son, there is no way for you to legally prevent him from being around your son if your stbxw changes her mind and ultimately chooses to shack up with him.


Your right. But that doenst mean I have to make it easy. Her family's on the same side too. And it's her aunt (who my son loves) that babysits for us. That would disappear. And she knows it. She also knows my flexibility with the schedule would change dramatically something that's been very beneficial to my son.

Oh and there have been a few incidents where my wife has been scared when they fight that is cause for concern she's even told her friend who would be witness for me if nescassary. So I'm making sure to cover those bases just in case. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## snap

Don't count on her friends supporting your case.

Also, don't assign any chances that you'd get together. Proceed as if she's gone.


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## Almostrecovered

the fact you're even giving odds, let alone really high ones tells me you are waiting for it to happen


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## elph

snap said:


> Don't count on her friends supporting your case.
> 
> Also, don't assign any chances that you'd get together. Proceed as if she's gone.


Her friends are also my friends. As well their daughter plays with my son alot. They'll fight for what's in my sons best intrest and as well they hate the OM. He actually got into a situation at work with my friend who was a vendor for the grocery store they work at. There's no love there at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

Almostrecovered said:


> the fact you're even giving odds, let alone really high ones tells me you are waiting for it to happen


I'm goin with the odds that ive read somewhere. I think it was not just friends by Shirley glass. As well with what I believe can happen. If she really wanted to be with him, we would've gone through the system by now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Please remember, guys, that they have a son. And if they can reconcile, it's better for the son. Some cheaters can learn. Maybe she will.


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## bandit.45

Sounds like an open marriage. 

She's banging him and stringing you along. Sounds cuckoldish to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

turnera said:


> Please remember, guys, that they have a son. And if they can reconcile, it's better for the son. Some cheaters can learn. Maybe she will.


Not if she's inconsistent in her motherly duties. Children NEED consistency in their lives. Divorce destroys that consistency in the short term but if BOTH parents are committed to create a 'new consistency' for their child(ren) then they will be fine.


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## elph

Bandit, Its not an open marriage. We don't live together, I've filed for legal seperation. Shes the one who hasn't taken it any further. And for the most part I've been progressing in terms of moving on. Is it my first choice? No. Would I like to reconcile? Yes. But I can only control so much. 

I understand how u may think this,and your not wrong for your opinion. As is anybody else who thinks I should just ditch her. However every situation is different. 
Being a child of divorce I resent my mother for her ending the marriage to my dad. I don't know the whole story, but I know her history since and it's not good. Mean while my dad is married and happy. My mom also ended thier marriage in her early 30s and intact mayve been cheating. At the time I was the only kid I knew who parents were divorced. And that happened right around puberty. 

Does this affect my decision? Yes. And if I can keep my son from dealing with what I did, I will. My wife has said that if she came back to the marriage she would be unhappy. Yet she tried to schedule things for us todo, and in her words she likes doing them. That said she's also said when I'm not around she misses me, but when I am she gets angry. 

It's all hogwash and her rewriting the history. 

I know her better than that. Even if she's acting like an alien has taken over her body. 
That said, the OM has learned a few tricks to about her and how to deal/manipulate her so she keeps coming back. ( like after a fight not communicating with her for a couple of days. My wife can't stand it and it works.) th reality is the OM put in all the effort in the beginning and he's been coasting ever since. It's been a low risk high reward situation for him till now. 

Again if she comes back and does the heavy lifting. We can make it work. If she doenst I'm cool too. All the learnin and healing I've done for myself works either way. 

Cuz I'm awesome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

elph said:


> Cuz I'm awesome.


Right you are!


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## Chaparral

This is interesting, looks like he caught it from someone maybe.


•In men younger than about 39 years of age, the causes are usually the same organisms that cause the sexually transmitted diseases of chlamydia (responsible for nearly 50%-60% of cases) and gonorrhea. The bacterial species are Chlamydia trachomatis and Neisseria gonorrhea, respectively.


•In those older than 39 years of age, the causes are usually coliforms, which are bacteria (such as Escherichia coli) that live in the intestines. These organisms also frequently cause bladder infections. Any age of men who participate in anal intercourse are more likely to get infected with E. coli or other fecal bacteria. Epididymitis is rarely caused by fungi or Mycobacterium spp.


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## elph

i have a whole theory ill go into late about this whole epididymitis thing between what his ex wife told me and such...but im busting ass here at work...

oh and barney stinson FTW!!!!


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## Kallan Pavithran

Dont loose your hope, wait for her to come to you. But how long can you wait like this? for ever? Is this a life?

All of us love our wife, but its time for you to love you more than anyone else.


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## warlock07

What if she does this again 3 or 5 years into R? By being there always for her when she falls, you are enabling her behavior.


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## Chaparral

She has rubbed your nose in this affair so long I can't believe she would have enough respect for you to ever come back and stay. Go find a girlfriend. Otherwise find a counselor and see why you can't move on.


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## elph

warlock07 said:


> What if she does this again 3 or 5 years into R? By being there always for her when she falls, you are enabling her behavior.


Hopefully I / we will be setting up a precedent for it not happening again. 
I know what lead her down the slippery slope. I've heard her reasoning for why she got caught up in the affair. And 50% of that reason is the OM. He went after my wife. When he realized our marriage was vulnerable he tailored his conversations toward how bad I am and how good he is. I found this out during my wife's break ups/moments of clarity. He even gave her the "if I was your boyfriend" speech. As well his ex told me of how much he would talk about her before they broke up. 

I believe my wife when she says she didn't mean to get into the affai. She didn't actively seek it out. She was weak and has crappy boundaries. And he took advantage of it. Once she became emotionally involved, he let up on the gas. 

He played her well, I'll give him that. The fog has done all the rest. 

I. An even pinpoint when our marriage started the down turn. Before that, we were very much in love. She just has no perspective on life, on how a new son and new house was going to affect out marriage. 

But know we know. If we were to reconcille it would definatly be different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

elph said:


> Hopefully I / we will be setting up a precedent for it not happening again.
> I know what lead her down the slippery slope. I've heard her reasoning for why she got caught up in the affair. And 50% of that reason is the OM. He went after my wife. When he realized our marriage was vulnerable he tailored his conversations toward how bad I am and how good he is. I found this out during my wife's break ups/moments of clarity. He even gave her the "if I was your boyfriend" speech. As well his ex told me of how much he would talk about her before they broke up.
> 
> I believe my wife when she says she didn't mean to get into the affai. She didn't actively seek it out. She was weak and has crappy boundaries. And he took advantage of it. Once she became emotionally involved, he let up on the gas.
> 
> He played her well, I'll give him that. The fog has done all the rest.
> 
> I. An even pinpoint when our marriage started the down turn. Before that, we were very much in love. She just has no perspective on life, on how a new son and new house was going to affect out marriage.
> 
> But know we know. If we were to reconcille it would definatly be different.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This may allbe 100% true but it doesn't mean sh!t to what is going on now. She has a new man. Move on.


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## warlock07

I hope he is right but at this point I think elph is delusional. This guy is in much worse fog than his wife ever was. Just my opinion elph


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## bandit.45

Elph,

I wouldn't even be talking to her or palling around with her if I was her husband and she treated me that way. Getting her help to find an apartment? Really? Tell her to f*ck off!

Your not her friend. You are her husband and you need to stand up to her and tell that she needs to stay away or rejoin you as a wife. 

Quit being a pussball! 

My God where has our society gone?...creating girly-men like this?


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## elph

bandit.45 said:


> Elph,
> 
> I wouldn't even be talking to her or palling around with her if I was her husband and treated me that way. Getting her help to find an apartment? Really? Tell her to f*ck off!
> 
> Your not her friend. You are her husband and you need to stand up to her and tell that she needs to stay away or rejoin you as a wife.
> 
> Quit being a pussball!
> 
> My God where has our society gone?...creating girly-men like this?


Actully I don't hang out with her. I see my son, yes. But we don't schedule any kind of family events. There are things that are unavoidable. School stuff. But we don't hang out. 95% of any conversations we have is related to our son. The rest is house related. 

As well she offered to help me. I don't need her help. It's her blatant attempt and trying to hold on to me at the same time. I'm not stupid. I see it coming a mile away. She's pushing apartments on me that she would like to live at. As in if we get back together. I can tell she's setting it up. But they're outside my budget. So there's that. 

I have to be a certain way with her, ESP when my sons around. It's common decency at best, avoiding court problems at worse. 

It seems that I'm delusional or in some kinda fog. And I'd agree with that mid last year. But I'm moving on. The door will be left open to a degree for my sons sake and for a desire to work it out. But I'm not holding in to that. I'm not looking for a relationship right now. But I wont stop it from happening either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Okay. Good. I withdraw the pussball girly-man statement.


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## elph

I like girls man , does that count? Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Peace.


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## Chaparral

elph said:


> I like girls man , does that count? Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Everyone is pulling for you Elph. Its just that we don't see much hope for your wife coming back. Even if she does, she has treated you as bad as any wayward I have seen here. Not that she has been as mean mouthed as some, but in total heart breaking disrespect. While you may not realize it, you have slowly been building a shield around your heart. One day you will look at her and wonder how and why you ever hesitated in putting her in your rear view mirror. 

Your biggest regret will be that you can't get the time back you've wasted. Look at the loser she is with, why would you want someone that had anything to do with him. He even has an STD, possibly from another man.

And number one, your son deserves much, much better.

The biggest thing keeping her away is she thinks you are sitting home pining away. GO OUT ON A DATE AND MAKE SURE SHE KNOWS IT. The prettiest girl you can find preferably that she knows if possible. Maybe there are some websites out there that can help with how to win back a girl but jealousy will always be your biggest arrow. If it doesn't work, nothing will.


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## turnera

My favorite way to get around this, if you have kids together, is that, when you have kid exchange, be all dressed up when you drop off the kids, and take off. You don't have to tell your spouse where you're going, or with whom. How would he/she know you're just going to hang out at the library?

Keep 'em thinking.


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## bandit.45

> My favorite way to get around this, if you have kids together, is that, when you have kid exchange, be all dressed up when you drop off the kids, and take off. You don't have to tell your spouse where you're going, or with whom. How would he/she know you're just going to hang out at the library?
> 
> Keep 'em thinking.


Yes!

Elph needs to hit the department stores and buy himself some cool threads, shoes and cologne. He needs to have one of the sales girls help him pick out and coordinate what he's going to wear. He needs to go hit a hair salon and get a new 'do. When he drops the kid off he needs to look and smell as fine as he can, then hit the clubs that night and flirt with as many chicks who'll talk to him.

Or he can stay at home alone and play Portal or some warcraft game that nerds like to play and be celibate for the next ten years.


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## warlock07

Somehow i have the suspicion that she will come chasing after him once he starts dating other women or once she realizes that he moved on.(Similar to how she runs after the OM after he stops communicating)

Until then, she will think of him as a back up option that she can fall back on if things don't work out with OM. The OM is not manipulating her. You are giving him way more credit than you should. Your wife is an adult that can make rational judgement.

Elph, I think you should close the door at some point. You don't want to teach your son that treating a husband like this is OK.


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## elph

Couple of things. 

My wife has never been that smart. Shes rather naive. My therapist had a word for it. Emotional immaturity i think. Or emotionally uneducated. 
She is actually really easy to manipulate. Because she uses her feelings more than logic. I've known it all these years and didn't use it that much. There was a few times I did. But never felt good about it. 

Also. Bought 3 new suits and such at Christmas time. A gift to my self 

Cue Barney Stinson.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

Oh and by the way,

U guys are awesome. I appreciate the concern and well wishes. 


More than you know. 




And f world of Warcraft, I'm old school d&d
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

As in...before computers were invented? lol


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## Kallan Pavithran

Wait man dont loose your enthusiasm, she will come to you when OM get tired of humping her and dump her when she ends up with some STDs. Pray to god for that to happen soon.


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## bandit.45

> Wait man dont loose your enthusiasm, she will come to you when OM get tired of humping her and dump her when she ends up with some STDs.


:rofl:

Kallan, you make my day sometimes!


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## [email protected]

In malayalam , kallan means thief!!


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## lordmayhem

This is now approaching the 1 year mark in this saga, sort of like HurtinginTN.

Sorry elph, but the fact that it's gone on this long shows you're not going to be able to let her go. Just like HurtinginTN, the first time she begs for R, you're going to cave. I hope that won't be the case, but it seems like you're just waiting out the affair by what you've posted.


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## elph

hey guys,


i understand what everybody's saying. i really do. and i am moving on very slowly in my own way.
on the flip side of that, everything ive read has said most affairs dont last more than 2 years. in my wifes case hes broken up with her once, and shes broken up with him 5 times. each time waiting longer to get back togther with him. her therapist as wemll as mine has saidits because she has touble breaking off these kinds of connections emotionally. logically, she sees it, and as her therapist has said, shes gone from seeing red flags to fire works. 
as well i think shes put her self in a pickle with it being work related. 

for all of us, logically, we would say she should just transfer or find a new job. heck if she wanted to she could force him to transfer when its all said and done. i personally think they should both be transfered and her company should wipe their hands of the situation, but at the same time would love to see him gone because hes faced zero consequences from this whole situation. his manager defends him no matter what and it makes him seem invincible.but she really doenst want to leave her store. so that inhibits her decisions. not making excuses, i just know how she thinks.


as for this whole epididymitis thing. the ex told me he got it in early 2010.well before the affair started. that the doctor said it was from lack of "release", that soldiers get it from time to time. i dont buy that either. anyway. they put him on powerful antibiotics, him and his wife were already kinda "dried up" in terms of sex, so they didnt do anything while he was on meds. so she never got anything and has been tested since then. since the 2 of the 3 ways of getting it are chlamidia or ghonnorea (the third being bacterial infection, mostly e.coli) are treatable stds with antibiotics. it was possible for the condition to come and go and be he end of it. its basically a male urinary tract infection.

my wife, since being with him has had several urinry tract or bladder infections. shes been on antibiotics every time to treat it. and oddly enough she had another one 4 days before i brought this up. she has been since tested and came up negative.the most likely reason she keeps getting the infections. because she doesnt finish her antibiotics all the way through, and the fact that hes rather large he "stretchs" her a bit which may lead to bacterial infections and well as pressure on her bladder....i know, way too much info, but thats what my curiosity gets me

the thing that gets me is, the ex wasnt at the dr.s office when he got examined, so he couldve lied about it. then he got pissy when he knew that i found out and tried to say it was none of my business. however we know that i have every right to know all things considered. but the thing is im in his head, and he fears me. its already been shown that im far smarter than he can ever hope to be, he knows that not only am i well researched, but also his ex will tell me everything. he also kow that if hes hiding anything else, i could find out. like how did he epididymitis in the first place. the more than likely scenario. he cheated on her before. 
him and his ex have an odd history. she was 29 he was 19 when they started dating. he was her first partner, and she says that she was his. but now its possible not his only. 

so thats the whole thing with the epididymitis. im the only one who hasnt been tested and thats because i just havent had time to get to a doctor. i have a check up next month and will do it then. though i also had a check up last april around my birthday, and they found nothing. (except im pre diabetic and was though to have an enlarged heart)


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## elph

now

as for the moving on and dating thing.
i di go out last night with a friend. talked to a few people, but nothing happened.

got messed up by drinking a little too much of this beer called racer 5. which i s odd cuz i can pack a way a 6 pack of regular beer no prob. but this stuff messed me up.

anyway, we waled back to my friends house and he went inside and i passed out in my car hoping to wake up in an hour to drive home.

well apperaently my friends girlfriend (who also work with my wife and are my "spies") came out and saw me passed out and texted my wife. 

i started getting a slew of texts worried about me, asking if i wanted to drive over (about 10 blocks from where i was parked) and spend the night. how i should just sleep there or call a cab, but not to do anything stupid. that she was scared for me. how she was working on "getting her head out of her ass".how hre and my son wouldnt know what theyd do if they lost me. and a few other things. i guess i text her back and told he i was fine and that i wouldnt do anything stupid. and was able to drive home (around 4 in the morning) and got home safe.

ive basically been recovering the whole day. but it was nice to get out. 

somebody made the suggestion on those days i drop off to dress nicer and not explain myself. something i already have in the works.

as well yesterday daytime i took my kid to the zoo. he had so much fun and was pointing out the animals and taking me to the exhibits. when we left he said maybe next time mommy can come with us.


i know not everybody agrees with what i do, and some people dont see my situation as salvageable. and it might not be. and i have to face the facts that i have to start moving forward. regardless. and thats not really a bad thing. im not completely holding out that we may reconcile. 

but when my son says that, THATS why i leave the door ajar to give the opportunity for it to happen, if shes willing to do the work and follow the foundation i have in mind for reconciliation. because he deserves a whole family.

some people say that im teaching him something negative by that, and i see that point of view, but i also think i can teach him how to go through adversity, how to handle bad situations with dignity, and how to show compassion and to look at the bigger picture as well as how to fight for your family.

also, if i get to the OM somehow, i can teach him about how you dont F with a mans family.


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## warlock07

> the fact that hes rather large he "stretchs" her a bit which may lead to bacterial infections and well as pressure on her bladder.


This guy is a masochist. I wonder what his breaking point will be? Elph. I am not sure how low your self esteem is but these are horrible words for any husband to hear. 


You said that you were in a fog, but now you are in a much better state. But is it possible that you are in a different fog now?


Can you tell us more about your counselor? I think he is a little bit too pro marriage here



> that she was scared for me. how she was working on "getting her head out of her ass".how hre and my son wouldnt know what theyd do if they lost me.


Yeah, right.I mean, how else can she show her concern about you other than f*cking this other guy. Your wife is manipulative here whether she knows it or not. Maybe she does not realize that she is doing it but she is manipulative. She is keeping you on the hook either in case the other relation does not work out or some emotional tampon. You said that she was emotionally immature. But how else is she going to learn from her actions if she will not face the consequences. You do something, face bad consequences, you stop doing that. If she is a slow learner(emotionally), it might take her a couple of extra times, but she will only learn once she faces the consequences. She will have to learn to be more mature But you think doing so is manipulative. I hate seeing such a good stand up guy like you going through such hell





> if shes willing to do the work and follow the foundation i have in mind for reconciliation.


with the way things are going right now, she won't. She will need to grow up a lot. But will she if she has no reason to?


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## bestplayer

"..*the fact that hes rather large he "stretchs" her a bit which may lead to bacterial infections and well as pressure on her bladder....*"

Any self-respecting man would throw up discussing these things about his wife . 
Honestly no one should blame OP's wife for the way she has been treating him because OP doesn't have any problem with that .


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## bandit.45

bestplayer said:


> "..*the fact that hes rather large he "stretchs" her a bit which may lead to bacterial infections and well as pressure on her bladder....*"
> 
> Any self-respecting man would throw up discussing these things about his wife .
> Honestly no one should blame OP's wife for the way she has been treating him because OP doesn't have any problem with that .


Is he self-respecting?

I'm beginning to wonder. He talks like he's her brother.


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## warlock07

bandit.45 said:


> Is he self-respecting?
> 
> I'm beginning to wonder. He talks like he's her brother.


I have a much worse words in my mind than brother. But I will keep quiet though. I see no point in insulting the OP.


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## elph

I don't like it. None of it. I only approach the problem of her urinary tract infections froma clinical point of view why she's had so many more since dating this *******. 
There is a bit of disconnect when I start trying to figure things out. 
Because, like everyone else, when you find out your spouse is having an affair, you want answers. I've gotten some from her, her mom (when they talk) and our friends. 

I'm very well aware how some part of her gets excited by this. Again her main reason for being with this guy is because he makes her feel special. So anything that stokes that emotional fire is ultimately good for her. My approach has to not contact her unless nesasscary. When I do drop offs I try to stay some what cold. And most definatly calm. 
And weve (myself and her family) been trying to show her the consequences of her actions. She tries to get me to do stuff for her when I drop off my son. Or to plan family time together. As much as it hurts I've had to decline alot. 
People may think I get off on this or enjoy it. I don't. Would I love to go into that store and beat him within an inch of his life for all to see. Hell yeah. Would I like to go off on my wife and leave her in a pool of her own emotional sludge. Absolutley. But the law protects him. And if I become "emotionally abusive" sh can use that against me. So my best bet is to keep quiet and bide my time. My main concer has to and has. Een for my son so I have to be very conscious how I act when he's around. 

As for my self esteem. When this whole thing started. I was in the red. But have battled back. I'm. Nowhere where I was before this. But I am better and stronger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

Also. 
Started the southbeach diet today. I'm currently 180. (at 5'7"). Need to get down to 165 (stupid good tasting winter foods/beer). Spring/summers coming sonic I'm gonna be out there again, got look my best / feel my best. This is something in doing for me, plus getting my health back on track for my son. 
Phase one sucks and won't be easy but I'll be happy to make it through a week. 
Nothing happens over night. Including my healing or my marriage dissolution or reconcilliation. But if I'm focused on the right things. The right things will happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Go to sparkpeople.com. Great site for health and losing weight.


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## Chaparral

elph said:


> Also.
> Started the southbeach diet today. I'm currently 180. (at 5'7"). Need to get down to 165 (stupid good tasting winter foods/beer). Spring/summers coming sonic I'm gonna be out there again, got look my best / feel my best. This is something in doing for me, plus getting my health back on track for my son.
> Phase one sucks and won't be easy but I'll be happy to make it through a week.
> Nothing happens over night. Including my healing or my marriage dissolution or reconcilliation. But if I'm focused on the right things. The right things will happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here's is exactly your problem. Your focused on the wrong things. She is not coming back until you turn on her. 

You called him an a$$ hole, him and your wife are two peas in a pod. While you are suffering shes riding HIM. It would have been kinder if she had ran you over with a truck. There is only one possible thing you control that could possibly have an effect and thats to start hanging out with other women and make sure she knows it. You can't do that because she has ripped off your manhood and you have lost your courage. 

Lastly, reread your thread, and grade yourself on how much progress you have made. I say little or none.

Then grade yourself on what a good father should have done. I say just about as bad an exampl as possible.


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## elph

chapparal said:


> Here's is exactly your problem. Your focused on the wrong things. She is not coming back until you turn on her.
> 
> You called him an a$$ hole, him and your wife are two peas in a pod. While you are suffering shes riding HIM. It would have been kinder if she had ran you over with a truck. There is only one possible thing you control that could possibly have an effect and thats to start hanging out with other women and make sure she knows it. You can't do that because she has ripped off your manhood and you have lost your courage.
> 
> Lastly, reread your thread, and grade yourself on how much progress you have made. I say little or none.
> 
> Then grade yourself on what a good father should have done. I say just about as bad an exampl as possible.






heres the thing about going out and hanging out with women or finding a new girl. it takes abit of confidence to do so. and as anybody knows, an event like this rips it away from you. you have to build it back up. for some people, its quick, others its a lot longer. without confidence women dont want to be around you. period.
and believe me im starting to get to that point. 

the other kicker about that is that i have my son 5 nights a week. so actually getting out is difficult. and all my friends. married. so the social network is a little thin. but i try to chat women up when im out running mundan errands, i take advantage of what i can. 

it might not seem like it in my posts, but there have been changes, small and incremental as they are. but the first change is my mindset. and like i said above with confidence, it takes time. im not one of those guys who can flick it on and off like a switch. i can just say screw it and move on like others who are apearently better than me. ive been with my wife for 17 years, its just not that easy. but im getting there. 

how ever i will take exception to the kind of father i am. 
my job has to lessen the impact this has had on my son. weve maintained a routine similar to what i t was like before all this happened. this came at the advice at multiple psychologists and counselors. it hasnt been easy, to watch him cry when he just wants mommy to come back home. or when he asks if she can go to the zoo with us next time, and i have to tell him no.

i may not be father of the year, but im dong the best for my son, including trying to keep some sort of stability amongst all this chaos.

you might not agree with the way i handle my wife, fine.
but when it comes to how i deal with my son, id day he has quite the advantage that i didnt have when my parents got divorced. and he is what matters most.

i work with what i got, i may make some mistakes, and i may be stubborn and it may take a while to grow and heal. but the kind of father i am i will take exception to.


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## morituri

So is April going to be the month that you file?


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## elph

I already filed for legal seperation in June. I scheduled mediation which she cancelled so she could get representation. She has neither completely filed a response nor sought legal counsel yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

elph said:


> I already filed for legal seperation in June. I scheduled mediation which she cancelled so she could get representation. She has neither completely filed a response nor sought legal counsel yet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And she's not likely too either because you're still the back up plan. She has no reason to move forward to anything because she's enjoying her cake. She gets to bang OM while keeping you in reserve. She knows she's got you hooked to her through your son and that you're faithfully waiting out the affair.

No hurry at all.

So if your son was going thru what you're going thru, what would you advise him after seeing the pain and agony he's going thru while his wife cuckolds him?


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## elph

if my son was going through this, id tell him to decide what he wants and to do what he thinks is necessary for his given scenario. 

id also tell him that affairs dont last and that he has to decide if he would truly want her back. and at what cost. 


but again, you assume that i enjoy whats going on. 

ill state where i stand again.


i am trying to move on. im sorry its not as fast as some people would like.
there have been times when she broke up with him, times when she seemed adamant to move on, even having HR involved at her work. im not saying i would have gotten back together with her then, but i am saying that if she put for the "heavy lifting" then there could be a chance if she wanted to come back.

but because there is a son involved, whos dad had been the child of divorce. my perspective is alittle different than just "dump the ***** and move on"

nobody wants to believe that im taking steps, then fine. but i am.

but they arent as immediate and grandiose as people seem to require.

to even get back out there, to be with another woman takes some emotional enrgy that i cant muster up as easily as some. sorry.

does my wife use the fact that we have a son as a way to get to me and or come back to the marriage. yes. 
if there is a chance at reconciliation, i will CONSIDER it, but that is based of the same basic premise that everybody seems to state in order for reconciliation to happen.
no contact
transperency/honesty/openness
etc...

i realize i have no control over what happens. that the only thing i have control over is myself.everybody seems to think that im the same as i was on d-day. but i know that im not. i know there've been changes. i know that i am already starting to move on, flirting a litlle with women here and there. 

but its also just not that easy.
again, i have my son 5 nights a week. ontop of the other things that make it hard to meet women.that said, im not exactally 100% confident in myself, nor am i emotionally available to even want to be in another relationship. hell that s the last thing i need at this point.not only that i havent dated anybody else in 17 years, i just cant get right back up on the saddle ya know.

for all intents and purposes we are heading our seperate ways.

im selling the house and getting my own place. trying to do my own thngs. but our son is still the main priority and there are times when contact is unavoidable. we keep a normal as possible routine for him. so he gets to see both of us as much as possible. 


as well everybody acts like my wife is some viscous harpy intent on destroying all that comes in her path.thats not the case. im not saying she perfect, obviously. but shes not one of those who is looking to just up and runa way with teh OM and start a new life with the OM. if she was, she woulda done it already. and as i mentioned, shes broken up with him 5 times, all of her own accord. and with nobody else pressuring her. The OM thoght knows exactly how to push her buttons to bring her back into the fold. (the old ignoiring trick, which has always worked really well). shes usually a good person, a good person who had a complete lack of boundaries, a good person who has made some horrendous decisions. a good person whose insanely naive. good person who went down that slippery slope, and by the time she realized what was going on, her emotions were all involved.

im not saying that what shes doing isnt wrong. and im not trying to defend her. her actions speak plenty. but i also take the whole view of who she is, at teh begining of the affair and for those first 6 months, she was the "alien who possesed my wife " kinda person. as my therapist said. right now shes a different person, totally self absorbed. but i aslo know the woman i married is in thre somewhere.

and if she comes out of it and wants to work on it, again, ill give it consideration, based off what shes willing to do.




but until then, if i find someone, or get my self n a nice situation, i sure as heck wont be saying no.


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## snap

elph said:


> if my son was going through this, id tell him to decide what he wants and to do what he thinks is necessary for his given scenario.


So essentially, you would not give any advice to your son.


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## snap

Elph, you are not in control of your life, you are being strung along.

Yes, your wife does not wish you ill. She simply does not give a flying f*ck about you, your feelings or your sanity. She is not a victim, she is not being forced into it, she is not manipulated. She choses him over you willingly. For her, you're a lawn chair, useful at times but OK to leave in the backyard under rain.


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## Chaparral

Yes you do just get back in the saddle. You get thrown and you get back again and again until you get it. Seventeen years meant nothing to your wife. She picked another man over your seventeen years. The only way she will come back is if the OM dumps her and she can't find another man. You have lost all her respect by sitting around waiting for her. What will happen if she breaks up with him is that she will leave you both in the dust.

There are as many ways to meet women as there are women. You have your son 5 nights a week. People with kids go out. They get babysitters. This is just an excuse. You and your wife never went out?

Finally, like so many others, make it where your wife no longer sees you. Drop off your son at parents house or some neutral spot where you do not come into contact with her. Say nothing about anything with her thats anything but divorce and your son. Tell your lawyer to go ahead with the divorce. You can always stop it. She can't stop a divorce by trying to ignore it.


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## Eli-Zor

"
Finally, like so many others, make it where your wife no longer sees you. Drop off your son at parents house or some neutral spot where you do not come into contact with her. Say nothing about anything with her thats anything but divorce and your son. Tell your lawyer to go ahead with the divorce. You can always stop it. She can't stop a divorce by trying to ignore it."


only when she sees you actively moving on will she realise that time is up. At the moment she has two men chasing her and is enjoying it . I said once before you should go dark , assume you are divorced and work out a way to do the weekly handover of your son . 

Your actions will say more than any words spoken .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

Eli-Zor said:


> "
> Finally, like so many others, make it where your wife no longer sees you. Drop off your son at parents house or some neutral spot where you do not come into contact with her. Say nothing about anything with her thats anything but divorce and your son. Tell your lawyer to go ahead with the divorce. You can always stop it. *She can't stop a divorce by trying to ignore it*."
> 
> 
> only when she sees you actively moving on will she realise that time is up. *At the moment she has two men chasing her and is enjoying it* . I said once before you should go dark , assume you are divorced and work out a way to do the weekly handover of your son .
> 
> Your actions will say more than any words spoken .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

He's allowing the cake eating because he's hoping to wait out the affair and willing to accept the OM's leftovers. In his case, just like HurtinginTN, hurthusb, marksaysay, etc, he's using his child as the reason not to move on. Like those other guys, he thinks he's making progress because he can flirt with other women a little bit. That's not progress, that's pretending to make progress.

Real progress would be proceeding with the D and actually showing his WS that he can move on without her, which would actually be kicking her off the fence that she's sitting on. Only if she actually sees that he's not the back up plan anymore will there ever be a chance of her moving out of the fog. As long as he's willing to sit there and wait out the affair, nothing will ever change. Geez, he even know how many times she breaks up with OM and he breaks up with her.


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## Shaggy

elph - if the old ignoring trick works so well - then why don't you go completely dark on her? 

only talk about your son - but even then only via email or text. Take a while to respond and then only respond in the most direct simplest way.

You're wife is still with him - because she chooses to be. She chooses to be with him because she is getting away with it. You haven't filed for divorce, you continue to answer her phone calls etc.

You talk like this is something she'll grow out of. The trouble is, it has gone on so long that it has become her new normal life. You around for emotional support etc, and him around when she wants a man.

you need to break the cycle, you need to play the ignoring trick as you say.


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## zsu234

I'm stunned at how utterly emasculated this generation has become. 40 years of radical feminism have created a population of beta-cucks. I see this story after story. This nation is in big trouble!


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## warlock07

> as well everybody acts like my wife is some viscous harpy intent on destroying all that comes in her path.thats not the case. im not saying she perfect, obviously. but shes not one of those who is looking to just up and runa way with teh OM and start a new life with the OM. if she was, she woulda done it already. and as i mentioned, shes broken up with him 5 times, all of her own accord. and with nobody else pressuring her. The OM thoght knows exactly how to push her buttons to bring her back into the fold. (the old ignoiring trick, which has always worked really well). shes usually a good person, a good person who had a complete lack of boundaries, a good person who has made some horrendous decisions. a good person whose insanely naive. good person who went down that slippery slope, and by the time she realized what was going on, her emotions were all involved.



Elph, we are not looking to attack you. But just remember the quote above. You will be looking back on it and realize how stupid it is.
As I said before, your wife is not one of these psycho bipolar wives that are hell bent on destroying their ex husbands. In actuality, that would have been better for you. You would have no problem moving on. It does not make it any better for you that she is nice and cares for you(On a very very superficial level). Her emotional maturity(or lack of it) does not make it any better for you. It is like you saying "She is not killing be intentionally, so I wouldn't mind her killing me by accident." 

You need to stop considering her your friend. She is poisonous to you, your self esteem and your own improvement. I mean with people like her, you won't even need enemies.


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## lordmayhem

elph said:


> as well everybody acts like my wife is some viscous harpy intent on destroying all that comes in her path.thats not the case. im not saying she perfect, obviously. but shes not one of those who is looking to just up and runa way with teh OM and start a new life with the OM. if she was, she woulda done it already. and as i mentioned, shes broken up with him 5 times, all of her own accord. and with nobody else pressuring her. *The OM thoght knows exactly how to push her buttons to bring her back into the fold. (the old ignoiring trick, which has always worked really well). *shes usually a good person, a good person who had a complete lack of boundaries, a good person who has made some horrendous decisions. a good person whose insanely naive. good person who went down that slippery slope, and by the time she realized what was going on, her emotions were all involved.
> 
> im not saying that what shes doing isnt wrong. and im not trying to defend her. her actions speak plenty. but i also take the whole view of who she is, at teh begining of the affair and for those first 6 months, she was the "alien who possesed my wife " kinda person. as my therapist said. right now shes a different person, totally self absorbed. but i aslo know the woman i married is in thre somewhere.


It would have been better for you to detach if she simply did run away into the arms of the OM. Instead, she's more sly and keeping you as the back up plan. She's a cake eater. To me, that's even worse because that's f*cking with your emotions and those of your child. It's a pity that you can't be alpha like the OM, which is why she keeps running back to him over and over and over again.










And with that, I shall bow out of this thread. It's been repeated over and over again. Some BSs simply can't get out of their own fog.


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## elph

a couple of things.

ironically enough everybody tells me to move on, that she'll notice...

i get that im not doing it as fast or as immediate as everybody would like, but i am.

my mother n law called me just a few ago to let me know some stuff (wife tells her mom things, mom tells me things, and she doenst know it) anyway. i listed my house yesterday. because i had to be there for some showings i didnt have time to pick up my son.(3 yesterday 3+ today) so my wife had to drop him off. they (her and my MIL ) got there a little before me, so that they could make my son dinner (again because of time)

from what she told me my wife was shocked to see how the house was made ready for sale. that things were taken off walls, and stuff was started to be packed up. she knew i was gonna do it, and that i am looking for a place, but it hit her right in the face.she also knows that ive been doing it all by myself (unlike the OM, who has his mommy do everything for him).she then saw dinner that i had prepared for myself (stupid fricken southbeach diet) as well as a menu plan for the rest of the week on the fridge with the south beach book near by.

my MIL basically said that my wife became very pissy, but scared at the same time. all those things hit her at once. as well as a few other things.

Ive told her i dont need her help for anything. i have said as much that i am moving on in my own way, and alot of it starts with getting my own place. shes now starting to see it. and she knows what it means. with out the house, its one less thing she can loard over me since its still in both our names...





also about the OM being alpha.

it maybe true he played that to his advantage in the beginning (him being a supervisor and all) but she learned that it was just an image he puts up at work. shes confided in her friend (whos also mine and the girlfriend of who i went out drinking with sat.)just how much of a "whiney little *****" he is. and this isnt the first time im hearing this. His ex (who ive become good friends with) has let me know that in their relationship he had his moments where he played the good husband/father, but she was to independant for him. when they fought, shed just walk away and leave him to pout like the little mommas boy he is.
i getthat same feeling form the texts i was able to get last year. he would often say "sorry for being so emo" or "thanks for letting me get that out" or my favorite "i needed to get that off my chest, im sorry if i got to teary eyed"

seriously. he said these things.


listen, i know i became a whiny clingy little ***** in the beginning. and in reality thats not who i am, i usually have my **** together. but as weve learned, affairs can do that, and it takes a while to heal from the damage.

im listening. i get what everybodys saying. it just moves at it s own pace.

a much as i try to interact with other women, they can smell needy or clingy from a mile away. they know when somebody their dealing with isnt confident with themselves. and we know how much condifence is attractive.

the fact is it isnt easy for me to just flip it on and off like a switch, like it may be for others. and ive said it before, i take my son into heavy consideration. im not hiding behind him. i just remember what it was like when my parents got divorced. it was mean and nasty. they fought over every little thing, to the point where they hated each other. and my mom was immensly selfish during that whole process. the divorce F'd me up. and i never want to see my son go through that or see his parents gt to that level. 
Ive been tremendously snarky and cutting with my wife most of the time when i see her. to the point where we get into fights. ive had to learn to hold my tongue. but id rather let my wife go than see my son go through what i did. 

i know how everybody says shes poison, even if she herself doenst consciously know what shes doing, even if all shes doing is following her "feelings". I get it. but certain things just dont happen over night. 

as our schedule stands, our son sees both his parents almost everyday. theres really no couple of days here, couple of days there. its also because we cant afford that kind of child care. so shell be with him till i get of work and pick him up or whatever. and since she works at 4 in the morn. she cant have him over except on her days off.i keep out discussions brief and about our son. and have brought up moving forward with the separation. i want to go through mediation, and avoid the courts. everything is in place money and schedule wise, the paper work just needs to be done...


----------



## Chaparral

chapparal said:


> Yes you do just get back in the saddle. You get thrown and you get back again and again until you get it. Seventeen years meant nothing to your wife. She picked another man over your seventeen years. The only way she will come back is if the OM dumps her and she can't find another man. You have lost all her respect by sitting around waiting for her. What will happen if she breaks up with him is that she will leave you both in the dust.
> 
> There are as many ways to meet women as there are women. You have your son 5 nights a week. People with kids go out. They get babysitters. This is just an excuse. You and your wife never went out?
> 
> Finally, like so many others, make it where your wife no longer sees you. Drop off your son at parents house or some neutral spot where you do not come into contact with her. Say nothing about anything with her thats anything but divorce and your son. Tell your lawyer to go ahead with the divorce. You can always stop it. She can't stop a divorce by trying to ignore it.


I forgot (I think) to make a major point. When it comes up that your wife wants to go on a family outing, tell her this in a nice,even humourous way that she is no longer a part if this family. She is now part of the OM's family and can have lots of outings with them.

You HAVE to use psychology. All is fair in love and war and the OM is killing you in this battle. He just has more grit and determination to go after what he wants.


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## Chaparral

"Ive been tremendously snarky and cutting with my wife most of the time when i see her. to the point where we get into fights. ive had to learn to hold my tongue. but id rather let my wife go than see my son go through what i did. "

What she sees when you do this is what I see. A man being b!tchy. Never ever let her see you whine which is what snarky is. What kind of man even uses the word snarky. Have youever seen astrong man talk to a woman this way? Reread the 180.

Number thirteen :
Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive................. Can you say why this is true? 

You've been reading "How to Run Your wife Off"


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## elph

chapparal said:


> "Ive been tremendously snarky and cutting with my wife most of the time when i see her. to the point where we get into fights. ive had to learn to hold my tongue. but id rather let my wife go than see my son go through what i did. "
> 
> What she sees when you do this is what I see. A man being b!tchy. Never ever let her see you whine which is what snarky is. What kind of man even uses the word snarky. Have youever seen astrong man talk to a woman this way? Reread the 180.
> 
> Number thirteen :
> Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive................. Can you say why this is true?
> 
> You've been reading "How to Run Your wife Off"


My wife is the one who used the word snarky. And my therapist agrees I need to stfu.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Even though its not true you need to convince her you are moving on without her.. You need to make her miss you, not ***** her out. You can even show a little sadness about how great things used to be. Of course she has to accept you care to much for her to be able to be friends when this is all over. Get it? 

As far as dating goes, there are websites out there that can help you. Hell there is even websites out there that teach you how to pick up married women. Check that out and see if OM used those techniques. A car salesman in New Orleans stole Knutwiilies wife that way.

DO not go after married women!

The point is to always show her your good side and that you can get along with out her because in the end you are strong,dependable, loveing and attractive and not a POSOm.

In other words you're cool and he's not, he's a cheater. And if he cheated once he will cheat again.


----------



## elph

chapparal said:


> Even though its not true you need to convince her you are moving on without her.. You need to make her miss you, not ***** her out. You can even show a little sadness about how great things used to be. Of course she has to accept you care to much for her to be able to be friends when this is all over. Get it?
> 
> As far as dating goes, there are websites out there that can help you. Hell there is even websites out there that teach you how to pick up married women. Check that out and see if OM used those techniques. A car salesman in New Orleans stole Knutwiilies wife that way.
> 
> DO not go after married women!
> 
> The point is to always show her your good side and that you can get along with out her because in the end you are strong,dependable, loveing and attractive and not a POSOm.
> 
> In other words you're cool and he's not, he's a cheater. And if he cheated once he will cheat again.



its funny you mention stuff like this...

i dont know how i stumbled on it but ive seen alot of sites like that, PUA stuff, manosphere stuff...i think it started with athol, then to rossiey...and continued on.

actually i enjoy alot of stuff they write, esp. athol...that MMSL book is gold.

as for the OM. since he had been married for the past 8 or so years, i dont think that he used any special techniques. so far as i can tell, he just used stuff i used to use in high school. 

pretend to be the friend, learn all you can, listen to the complaints, say exact opposite. find out whats missing and focus on that...hook em, then put it on cruise control and theyll do all the work ....


seriously. i did this stuff in high school.It just so happens that my wife is really easy prey.


shes nice, real nice..almost too nice for her own good. her manager has pointed this out, that shes just too casual around people,a nd some can misconstrue that as something else...shes not flirtatious. shes more awe shucks kinda girl who doesnt make do much makeup. shes got and incredible rack, but doenst wear much to accentuate it. 
but that naiveness is often a flaw as well.

when we broke up some time ago,before we got married. she dated this guy. he was very similar to the OM. hed tell her what she wanted to hear. and at the beginning seem one way, romantic and involved with her. found out he was manipulating her. and in fact played her the whole time. he was cheating on her (of course the fact that he had 3 kids with 2 diff women shoulda been a red flag too). he then played the same ignoring games, and she kept going back for more...this guy was the typical bad boy...except he became both physical and emotionally abusive. and she kept going back to him despite the fact that she would be beaten. he was eventually arested and sent to jail and she was able to come out of it. shorly after we got back together and the rest is history. (and for the record, i saw a few girls during that time, but nothng too serious)

My wife has issues, alot stems from her kinda being abandoned by her dad, and her fear of that.
alot of how she acts now is eerily similar to how she acted back then. 


anyway, 
you are right though, i need to continue to shut up. something ive gotten better at, and keep it cool.

the thing is im excited to move out of this house and get my own place...i havent hid that fact. it kinda helps me move on in its own way. so it really wont take much convincing on my part...

which is what ive been trying to relay...


ive been a bit slow on the uptake...but things are a changin...


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## warlock07

So this is not the first time she is doing this?


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Omg................omg........................omg..................


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## Shaggy

Elph - why can't you play the ignoring game too? I don't mean be nasty - I mean be happy and unavailable for her. 

You keep going back to how well that works with her - so why don't you use it too?


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## elph

warlock07 said:


> So this is not the first time she is doing this?


Doing what? 

This is not the first time she's chosen the wrong person. Yeah. She's not the best judge of character and not to worldly wise. I have to say she generally has a good head on. Her shoulders but she was a little sheltered. I love my mother in law, but she did her no favors by not being a better teacher to her about people and the way the world is. Unlike my mom who was no bull shtter. 

But if your emplying cheating. No. We were broken up at the time. We had kinda drifted apart. She moved out and later started a relationship with him. He was a smooth talker too, but a heavy drinker. ( oddly enough the OM is quite the drinker too. I found out that he lost a bunch of weight at the beginning of the affair/divorce papers being served. But has put on 30 lbs and has a bit of a gut. Also when he used to go over to her house he'd bring alcohol. This guy pulled the same game. Told her what she wanted to hear. Found out about about our relationship and just used that. Also though, unlike the OM, he had other women after him. Like I said be was a player, and my wife thought that it made her feel special that he picked her, and be was the bad boy so she thought she could change him. All typical stuff for a girl in her mid 20s Unfortunatly. 

My wife's biggest weakness is her self esteem. Even more so since she put on weight after the baby. (oddly enough, right before we broke up she had also put on a decent amount of weight). She's never been comfortable with herself despite me telling her how beautiful I thought she was. Tho I did always worry about her weight it was for health reasons, since I have high blood pressure. I'm just more of a health based kinda guy. My wife has "issues" and they basically stem from her father leaving and her low self esteem. 

She's also fairly predictable. I've seen this before in her. Her attitude with the OM is similar how she was when she was with the jerk. Only when that event had passed did she realize exactly what had happened. But I know that she views the affair as "different". Simply because the OM hasn't beaten her yet. But from the outside looking in. We see similar things. And it's not just me. She has friends that were around for that situation who have tried talking to her. We all know how the mindset gets for affairees. So logic just doesn't get through. 

As everybody has stated. I have to hit her emotionally. And with the moving and house selling thing, the diet nd working out, it's all coming to fruition. My contact has lessened Nd I know everybody says just ignore her. It's not quite that easy. But I'm not picking up the phone to call her. Unless its about our son, and if I can limit it to texts I do. (she doesn't do email). I keep convos brief and to the point. If I pick up at all. So this stuff is starting to happen. 

I know my wife pretty well. The only thing I didn't know is how poor her boundries were or how easily she could get into something like this. That was my fault for being dumb about thinking that marriage would protect a relationship. The rules don't change just because you put a ring on it. ( sorry beyonce). 

I've definatly learned alot. And if reconcilliation were to ever happen, you can bet things would change. 


That said some of the best stuff I've learned has come from both athol ( married man sex life) and this blogger called roissey. Look up roisseys maxims of his website chateaus heartiste. 

Better yet when I get a chance ill post em later. It's good stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You don't HAVE to do anything. Except decide what you will accept in your life and move toward THAT.

Stop trying to play games with your wife. You can't control her and you can't make her want you. And if you somehow figure out how to make her choose you without it being her idea, you're just postponing another affair til down the road.

Any reconciliation has to come from HER (assuming you still want her at the time), after a long hard period of self-reflection and acknowledgment of her problems and faults. Any R before that is a false one.


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## elph

turnera said:


> You don't HAVE to do anything. Except decide what you will accept in your life and move toward THAT.
> 
> Stop trying to play games with your wife. You can't control her and you can't make her want you. And if you somehow figure out how to make her choose you without it being her idea, you're just postponing another affair til down the road.
> 
> Any reconciliation has to come from HER (assuming you still want her at the time), after a long hard period of self-reflection and acknowledgment of her problems and faults. Any R before that is a false one.


Exactaly...

it took me awhile to get the control thing and to let go of that..

as well i was way to tailored to the specifics of my wife...

my therapist put it a good way.

anything you do to attract any woman, will also attract your wife. and that starts with confidence, and being your best. when you do that not only will your other women be attracted to you, but so will your wife, and ultimatley shell feel the competition as only women do. not only will she gravitate towards you, she WANT reconcilliation, but shell also put her best effort forward. because thats what women do when they want a man.


btw, my therapist is a woman.





also, does anybody ever see the word therapist and think "the rapist" like from the Saturday night live celebrity jeopardy skit?

i see it everytime and think it in sean connerys voice.


----------



## warlock07

Anyone into Arrested development?

Arrested Development - Analrapist 1 - YouTube


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## Shaggy

Elph and what would you do if she did come back? It sounds like just a matter of time until she sleeps with another guy. She has no boundaries at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

Shaggy said:


> Elph and what would you do if she did come back? It sounds like just a matter of time until she sleeps with another guy. She has no boundaries at all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i outlined earlier what i would do and what would be required of her if she came back.

as for the boundaries part. 

from this one time, i would hope shed learn. and i think thats something we would have to work on together. so that it doenst become an issue. 

as well shes not the kind to just sleep around. if we complete the seperation, then shes gonna do what shes gonna do. but if we reconcile, ive always said itll be alot of work 25% dealing with the affair and getting answers, and 75% dealing with the marriage and making sure it doenst happen again. Thats a team effort. 

if she does her part in the begininng, the so called heavy lifting. then it will make my part all the more easier. 

Then the rest is just doing what i should have done in the first place...as well as doing what she should have done in the first place. 

i think on a relationship level, Dr. harley put out a good book about the 10 basic needs thats a good starting point.
as my point of refernce, Athols book is fantastic. 

from hers, well there is a book about dealing with affairs and what she needs to do that i have ill give her to read, but as to how to deal with marriage from a womans perspective...i have no clue (book wise)


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## LabTool

> from this one time, i would hope shed learn. and i think thats something we would have to work on together. so that it doenst become an issue.


How many times have you hoped she'd learn?. I think you both don't learn.


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## elph

LabTool said:


> How many times have you hoped she'd learn?. I think you both don't learn.



well considering this is the first time shes cheated on me, id figure she'd eventually learn from the experience and not do it again...

do i think she can, yes.

i did.

when we first started dating waaayyy back when she was 17, i was 18. i screwed up and cheated on her a few times because i was drunk, and for once in my life i actually had more than one woman who thought i was attractive. i didnt know how to handle the situation. 

i have learned from that, and have never been tempted to do it again.



if your talking about learning form picking the wrong guys. well if we get through this, itll hopefully be amoot point. but if not, im sure shell contimue to pick the wrong guys over and over again, because shes too naive and trusting. i think she differentiates the wo different situations because there is no physical abuse involved. but really the guys are eerily similar.


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## LabTool

Seriously?, this is what you said.



> in my wifes case hes broken up with her once, and shes broken up with him 5 times. each time waiting longer to get back togther with him.


and you've been taking her back all these times while hoping she'd learned her lesson. Anyway, deep down you probably like all this drama. So enjoy yourself.


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## elph

LabTool said:


> Seriously?, this is what you said.
> 
> 
> 
> and you've been taking her back all these times while hoping she'd learned her lesson. Anyway, deep down you probably like all this drama. So enjoy yourself.


Actually, you are incorrect on all levels. 
I have not been taking her back at all. Neither has she come back to the marriage. She's broken up with him, each time and attempt to get away. She's lasted days or weeks without talking to him. Her family has been there for support. But at no time have we gotten back together. In fact it was suggested by her therapist, and mine as well on seperate occasion, that she should take a little time to herself when she does really break up with him, some time to clear her head and get over it. Heal. Because as much as nobody wants to admit, if she came back to the marriage too soon, even though we are still married, the effect would be similar to a rebound. 

And again she has things she would need to do before she could come back. 

Secondly, to even suggest that I like this bull**** drama is beyond insane. To think I like seeing my son cry when his mommy isn't there in the morning, or having to pick him up at the height of a fun day or if he's tired from a days events, is preposterous. 

Because I end up informed about the things that are happeneing doenst mean I like the drama, it just means that I use the knowledge as not only a defense mechanism, but as a way of trying to fix the situation. I've always been insatiably curious. I won't apologize for that. 

But to think I like this?



Well at least you got the tool part right in your name.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

elph, people are just trying to ensure that you're not be used. It is VERY common for BHs to take back their wife too soon or with no restrictions. People are trying to protect you from doing so. Carry on.


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## bandit.45

Go on with the divorce. Even if she does eventually rid herself of the OM she'll just jump on another guy before coming back to you. 

You need to absorb the fact that you will always be #2 to her.... Never #1.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

You and your wife have not lived together for many months now and the two of you co-parent your son on different days and times. Like it or not elph, you are living like a divorced man except that legally you are still married to her.

You have been more than patient with your cheating wife considering that she's continued contact with the OM - EA still going and possibly PA - for despite claims to the contrary, nobody is actually watching her 24/7. The result has been cake eating on her part because she knows that if she begs you to come back that there is more than enough chance that you will say yes to her.

Frankly your wife is in no condition to be in a committed relationship like marriage and the sooner you accept this truth, the sooner you will realize that the marriage is dead and needs to be buried - divorce.


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## elph

turnera said:


> elph, people are just trying to ensure that you're not be used. It is VERY common for BHs to take back their wife too soon or with no restrictions. People are trying to protect you from doing so. Carry on.


Believe you me there is no way that she comes back with out restrictions. There are very specific things that will need to happen if it gets to that point. And I will accept nothing left. Things that will OT only help with some of the healing. But also show me where her head lies. As well as getting back at the OM in a way that would have longer lasting repercussions. 

Oh she's not getting off easy, by no means. 

But not in a way that will further damage things, but bring about some long lasting change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

elph said:


> Believe you me there is no way that she comes back with out restrictions. There are very specific things that will need to happen if it gets to that point. And I will accept nothing left. Things that will OT only help with some of the healing. But also show me where her head lies. As well as getting back at the OM in a way that would have longer lasting repercussions.
> 
> Oh she's not getting off easy, by no means.


She may know this but emotionally it seems that it has been not been registering until lately with the changes you are making to move on with your life. It can be argued that if you had done this from the very beginning, you may have found yourself light years ahead of where you are at this very moment.

In order pass your criteria for re-entry into the marriage, it may take her a very long, long time of counseling and therapy. How long are you willing to wait for that to happen elph? By that time that happens, you may no longer have enough love left in your 'love bank' needed for the hard work or reconciliation. Something to think about.


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## elph

morituri said:


> She may know this but emotionally it seems that it has been not been registering until lately with the changes you are making to move on with your life. It can be argued that if you had done this from the very beginning, you may have found yourself light years ahead of where you are at this very moment.
> 
> In order pass your criteria for re-entry into the marriage, it may take her a very long, long time of counseling and therapy. How long are you willing to wait for that to happen elph? By that time that happens, you may no longer have enough love left in your 'love bank' needed for the hard work or reconciliation. Something to think about.


i believe that if the no contact is put into place and wither she transfers or he transfers (or gets forced out, as he is on a short leash now with several district managers coming trough on the situation), if those first two things happen, then wed move onto a phase two, which while not really easier, adjusts where the pressure and the stress will come from.

i know im not explaining it right, but basically, say she goes NC, and there is no longer any workplace problems, and she begs to come back and work on the marriage, then we establish a plan for understanding the affairs and the whys (for the most part) thatll take 25% of the plan (As well as answering questions and such other stuff.

then comes the bulk of the work, the 75%. resestablishing the marriage. reconnecting. re-learning how to make a relationship work. re-learning how to communicate. learning how ro re-build attraction and how everyday life plays into the relationship. things that i wish they gave you a book on, but they dont, most people have to find out the hard way.

and yes part of this will also be her doing the heavy lifting in terms of showing (not saying) her dedication to me, the family and the marriage. obviously re-establishing boundries. and creating marriage V2.0

Ive dont a lot of learning and healing on my own, alot that will help with my side of the process. shell have to do the owrk then. of course counseling will be part of this, but so will building new experiences. If we gt to the part where shes actively involved in rebuilding the marriage and the NC stands, then my patience is exponential. something i learned once i had my son...you have to be a zen master dealing with kids sometimes.

i know a lot of people wont agree with this...but this of course is providing she hits all the predesignated requirements, all the things weve read about in books and on websites. 
the rest is just building the relationship.


and while my "love bank" isnt infinite and has been dwindling, i look at my son and see that if we can make it work, itll be worth the effort. 

i know ill have to rebuild my love for her too, where as shell have to redefine what love is, as opposed to infatuation, and how being "in love' isnt the be all to end all of a relationship.


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## ShootMePlz!

*06-06-2011, 04:40 PM 

the rest of the day was a little talking. she was trying to goad me in to saying i would always be around. when she ends up hearbroken, or falls flat on her face. i just let her know i wouldnt be there to see if that happens.*

Wow I didn't realise how long she has strung you along!!! Lets face it she knows you are going no where....if she thought you were serious she might actually drop the guy. You are actually doing the OM a favor by still being around as plan B(second choice). It allows her do continue getting her fix(OM) and his fix (sex with your wife) for all this time. If you are serious just cut all contact with her.....she will fold but until she believes you are serious she will not stop!!!


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## Saffron

elph said:


> i believe that *if the no contact *is put into place *and wither she transfers or he transfers *(or gets forced out, as he is on a short leash now with several district managers coming trough on the situation), if those first two things happen, then wed move onto a phase two, which while not really easier, adjusts where the pressure and the stress will come from.
> 
> i know im not explaining it right, but basically, say she goes NC, and there is no longer any workplace problems, *and she begs to come back and work on the marriage*, *then we establish a plan for understanding the affairs and the whys *(for the most part) thatll take 25% of the plan (As well as answering questions and such other stuff.
> 
> *then comes the bulk of the work*, the 75%. resestablishing the marriage.* reconnecting. re-learning how to make a relationship work. re-learning how to communicate. learning how ro re-build attraction and how everyday life plays into the relationship*. things that i wish they gave you a book on, but they dont, most people have to find out the hard way.
> 
> and yes *part of this will also be her doing the heavy lifting in terms of showing (not saying) her dedication to me, the family and the marriage. obviously re-establishing boundries. and creating marriage V2.0*Ive dont a lot of learning and healing on my own, alot that will help with my side of the process. shell have to do the owrk then. of course counseling will be part of this, but so will building new experiences. *If we gt to the part where shes actively involved in rebuilding the marriage *and the NC stands, then my patience is exponential. something i learned once i had my son...you have to be a zen master dealing with kids sometimes.
> 
> i know a lot of people wont agree with this...*but this of course is providing she hits all the predesignated requirements*, all the things weve read about in books and on websites.
> the rest is just building the relationship.
> 
> 
> and while my "love bank" isnt infinite and has been dwindling, i look at my son and see that if we can make it work, itll be worth the effort.
> 
> i know ill have to rebuild my love for her too, where as shell have to redefine what love is, as opposed to infatuation, and how being "in love' isnt the be all to end all of a relationship.


I'm sure you're already aware of this Elph, but the bolded portion of your plan/hope are unknown variables dependent on your wife's future actions, feelings, and decisions. It reads like an abstract math problem . . .

IF NC x^(a+b) = (x^a)(x^b)WHETHER a,b ≥ 0 AND b = 0 x^(a+0) = (x^a)(x^0) = (x^a)e = x^a, THEN x^(a+k) = (x^a)(x^k). THEN x^(a+(k+1)) = x^((a+k)+1)DEPENDS = x^(a+k)x= IF [(x^a)(x^k)]x = (x^a)[(x^k)x] = (x^a) BUT (x^(k+1)) HEA.


From reading other posts, it seems people want to make sure you're making plans for the very strong possibility that your wife never puts NC into place and begs for R. Do you have a time limit in mind to put an end to your waiting?


I understand the desire to wait and make it work for you son, most parents will do anything for their children. Just keep in mind that a healthy relationship between parents, even divorced ones, will be better role modeling for your son than a dysfunctional marriage. I'm sure you'll know when holding out hope is doing more harm than good.

I saw the quote below and thought of your wife. Until she changes her mind, nothing will change . . . at least until you've changed your mind. 


“Those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.” 
― George Bernard Shaw


----------



## elph

Shootmeplz-

actually things are different, including how we communicate. timely as this story may be.

i went to pick up my son tonight. well he pretty much lost his ****. he though he was going to spend the night at mommys, but because she has to wake up at 4, there would be nobody to watch him.
as he broke down, i just stood there, silent.
i watched her try to calm and console him. eventually he calmed down, i didnt say to much. but i did 2 things. i reminded her of something he said last year. he said if this affected my son, that he would back off.he didnt, but just proved what a great honest guy he is. the second thing i said was to text him when i leave (because i know she will) and tell him he was wrong. our son isnt adapting...at all. (i know he told her that, as he also told his ex wife that their 2 kids would adapt as well)

i said it quitely, but with a low growl, then took my son and left.

but i could see the tears in her eyes as i left, from both the her sons behavior and the fact that she knew i was right.

i have seen changes in her, but iam also smart enough to know when the right time to say or do things. months ago, even the harm and tears from my son couldnt pull her away, i knew if he couldnt, i wouldnt be able to.they say thats is acommon thing with ppl in affairs...as well no contact with her, obviously, would be impossible.



Saffron, the obvious answer is 1. easy math.

as in one person all by them selves. im preparing for that fact, and gettng my own place is a part of that. they put up the for sale sign up in my yard. that one hit kinda hard...but i also have the feeling that the point when ive moved on will be something i notice more in hind sight, because i will have just done it...no real fanfare, things like my day to day will just be different...


----------



## snap

Elph, you are holding it not for the sake of your son. This is just a pretext, not a true reason. The boy is in pain from this limbo as well, and no amount of quiet growling at your wife going to change much.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

He is a good drama artist...
Lives in fantasy world he created by day dreaming.


----------



## elph

snap said:


> Elph, you are holding it not for the sake of your son. This is just a pretext, not a true reason. The boy is in pain from this limbo as well, and no amount of quiet growling at your wife going to change much.


No my son is one huge main reason why I keep the possibility open. Because I was a child of divorce. An ugly nasty divorce. And growing up I was the only kid I knew who's parents were divorced. It sucked then and it sucks now. And I don't want my son to ever know what it's like, or the pain and problems associated with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Will_Kane

I had to laugh. I looked at your post above about the 75% this and the 25% that and the v2.0 and I thought, what is this, some kind of messed up math problem? Then scrolling down a second later, Saffron said the same thing.

Elph, you are deep in the fog. It's way past time for you to let this go and move on without her. I looked back a page or two and you posted that she's broken up with the OM five times already, of her own accord. Like you were so proud of her that she did it all on her own. Five times? Really? Snap out of it already. You seem like a good guy. We are on your side. Time to let her go and move on.

Just last night you told her two things. The OM lied and was wrong. She teared up. Big deal. Now, if she said, yes you're right, I'll never see him again, I could see where you would be happy with the result of the two things you told her in a "quiet growl." But after all this time she teared up? That's it?

It's your wife, it's your life, you're too wrapped up in the little details - I said this, she said that, blah, blah, blah. Look at the big picture. You're making no progress. At this rate, she'll come back to you after your son has graduated college.

Did you ever see the TV show Seinfeld? There's a character, George, who always makes the wrong decision. On one show, he decides to do the opposite of whatever he feels is right. Well, I think it's time for you to start doing "the opposite." Because doing what you feel is right has not worked and is not working.


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## elph

Will_Kane said:


> I had to laugh. I looked at your post above about the 75% this and the 25% that and the v2.0 and I thought, what is this, some kind of messed up math problem? Then scrolling down a second later, Saffron said the same thing.
> 
> Elph, you are deep in the fog. It's way past time for you to let this go and move on without her. I looked back a page or two and you posted that she's broken up with the OM five times already, of her own accord. Like you were so proud of her that she did it all on her own. Five times? Really? Snap out of it already. You seem like a good guy. We are on your side. Time to let her go and move on.
> 
> Just last night you told her two things. The OM lied and was wrong. She teared up. Big deal. Now, if she said, yes you're right, I'll never see him again, I could see where you would be happy with the result of the two things you told her in a "quiet growl." But after all this time she teared up? That's it?
> 
> It's your wife, it's your life, you're too wrapped up in the little details - I said this, she said that, blah, blah, blah. Look at the big picture. You're making no progress. At this rate, she'll come back to you after your son has graduated college.
> 
> Did you ever see the TV show Seinfeld? There's a character, George, who always makes the wrong decision. On one show, he decides to do the opposite of whatever he feels is right. Well, I think it's time for you to start doing "the opposite." Because doing what you feel is right has not worked and is not working.



couple of things...the numbers thing isnt an absolute, i just deal with stuff better when i can visualize it...numbers or stats are just easier for me...i sucked at most math in school, except for geometry, which i aced...


as for the do the opposite, or no progress,

thats where im going to have to say your wrong.

if this were september, under one of her "breakups" i would have handled my sons tantrum myself, instead of let her deal with it. i wouldve stayed longer to talk it over, or become enraged and start a huge fight...i dont think the point of the low growl came off here like i wanted...it was a manner of communicating to her while both being firm but not making a scene while my son was in the room...again, if this had been 6 months ago, id be trying to talk it through, my reactions totally different.

i keep things to a minimum...but i had to say something on behalf of my son and why hes acting the way he did...she may see it, but its still not translating in that immature mind of hers...but it was a point i needed to get across anyway...

im very conscious of the way i act around her...esp when im angry...but as i have had to learn...i just need to shut up....thats definatley a 180 from where i was months ago...and it aint easy, because im a talker (or lecturer as she would say)


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## Chaparral

Your son needs counseling. I doubt what your son is going through now could be better than divorce. And your wife needs to be told exactly what she has wrought on her sons life.


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## turnera

I understand why you want your wife to have to deal with her son's tantrum...to TEACH her a lesson, to make her come around, to _get the result you want._

But letting your child suffer while you stand at a fair distance watching is close to abusive. 

I'm sorry, I usually agree with what you're doing. But not when you're using a child to achieve your goal.

My brother nearly killed himself because of what our parents put him through and I've been dealing with it in therapy my whole life. Don't do that to your son.


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## TDSC60

elph said:


> No my son is one huge main reason why I keep the possibility open. Because I was a child of divorce. An ugly nasty divorce. And growing up I was the only kid I knew who's parents were divorced. It sucked then and it sucks now. And I don't want my son to ever know what it's like, or the pain and problems associated with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Quite using your son as an excuse not to act. Your son knows the pain and problems associated with divorce right now. HE IS LIVING IT. Mommy lives in one place, Daddy lives in another and he goes out and back between them. In his world you are divorced already.

Now show him how to act like a man. File the divorce papers.


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## Chaparral

TDSC60 said:


> Quite using your son as an excuse not to act. Your son knows the pain and problems associated with divorce right now. HE IS LIVING IT. Mommy lives in one place, Daddy lives in another and he goes out and back between them. In his world you are divorced already.
> 
> Now show him how to act like a man. File the divorce papers.


That could actually end the stalemate in your favor.

Is stalemate a pun?


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## chaos

Dr David Walsh said:


> *Children need consistency*. Parents who fail to provide this do not do their children any favors. Children will often pit one parent against the other in a process called triangulation.
> 
> What is even more harmful is when separated or divorced parents sabotage or criticize one another. This puts children in the position of having to choose sides.
> 
> That said, it isn't easy negotiating parenting strategies after a divorce. I would suggest that you calmly share this response with your divorced spouse and invite him to discuss how the two of you can agree on some common ground rules for your children that you both agree to enforce. Remind him that this is for the children’s benefit, not as a favor to you. You might also want to see if he is willing to meet with a neutral third party to see if he or she can help you come to a working agreement


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## elph

turnera said:


> I understand why you want your wife to have to deal with her son's tantrum...to TEACH her a lesson, to make her come around, to _get the result you want._
> 
> But letting your child suffer while you stand at a fair distance watching is close to abusive.
> 
> I'm sorry, I usually agree with what you're doing. But not when you're using a child to achieve your goal.
> 
> My brother nearly killed himself because of what our parents put him through and I've been dealing with it in therapy my whole life. Don't do that to your son.


For what it's worth, this was a situation that my wife had created. She mentioned an upcoming change in schedule but he mistook it as last night. She had to explain the difference I. What was happening. It was something that we agreed to(a style of parenting) so that we wouldn't step on each others toes or back track from what one of us may have had in mind. It basically allows for the action to happen and if we want to change the rules or something, we talk about it later and decide. That way there is no power struggle or contradiction and it come in like a united front. I've seen plenty of parents say one thing, then have the spouse say other wise right in the moment creating a conflict. Unless of course there's some sort of immediate threat. 
That's why I let her handle it. But when I deal with my son I get easier and more immediate results. Her. Not so much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

This is something we whole heartedly agree with. That's why we keep his routine as normal as possible. We try to keep improper discussions away from him. And constantly give him as much live and support and reassurance as possible. 

But he's a smart kid. He tried to get us around each other as much as possible. And always tried to get mommy to spend the night. But we do as delicately as we can to explain why she can't. For 4 years old he understands as much as he can. But at least we're not turning into my parents. 

And please believe when I say that everybody's advice and care doenst go unheard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

You do not allow her itno your house now right? She doesn't have a key does she?


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## elph

ive been a way for a little, i needed a break just because it can be depressing after awhile..

so a quick update here...

since my last post ive had to put our house up for sale since i cant afford to live in it by myself...we have a buyer and are currently in the short sale process..

because of that ive had to go looking for an apartment. its been a tough search because my credits taken a hit, as well it seems now in CA you need to make 3x your rent...which sucks. i carry almost no debt, but what ever...the other hard pard is because i have our 2 cats as well, alot of places dont allow any pets. i know, just get rid of the cats, but ive had them for 11-13 years now, they wont get adopted, and their really good cats (one thinks its a dog sometimes). theyre family, and i dont give up on family...

i lost out on some really good places, but finally got one and im moving in a few weeks...its definalty smaller than my house, but all of this moving and stuff had helped keep my mind on other things...including adjusting my living situation..the good thing is get to go through all the crap we had and get rid of things, as well the apartment is a few blocks away for my aunt in law (who baby sits) and what will be my sons school....


as well i signed up for the warrior dash here in northern Cali. so ive started getting in shape for that (insanity+resistance training+a run occasionally) that happend in late oct. and its really helped give me some focus and direction...



AS for the marriage. as it stands no progress has been made. no mediation, and my wife still hasnt gotten a lawyer. weve kept things to drop offs and pickups, but weve had to attend a few school functions together and a family event too as well. shes been warm with me then, but latley, shes kinda ramped it up alitlle. i think because im getting my own place and such she knows which direction that will ultimatly lead.

AS for her relationship, he coworkers and some of our friends have told me that its over...they avoid each other at work. shes been under alot of scrutiny from her boss, but i also found out he threatened to transfer her if she has HR come in again for any reason...the OM has been working less hours and from what his STBX told me hes been contacting her more and more, though shes been pressing for divorce because she found somebody else, he has dodged her and her lawyer.

my wifes mother has also insinuated that its over. shes been spending more and more time with her family. trying to keep busy and "heal".

but then her mom also told me something new that changed the game a little.

her therapist (and technically mine before hers about 6 months ago) diagnosed her with Borderline Personality Disorder...or at least signifigant traits of...the only two that dont line up are long relationship and long employment...other then that she right on Que.

ive dont a little research on it and i definetly see it, but thenagain, i always that it was just a woman being a woman...

her mom told me shes actively trying to understand and deal with it, as opposed to shoving it off. 

so we had a BPD having an affair with a narcissist. and both her therapist and mine in 2 seperate occasions said it was dynamite just waiting to explode (her mom also told me they had a huge fight and he called her "sick in the head" and was the reason he was haveing other issues in his life)..


all that and i have gone out on a couple of dates...nothing big, and quite frankly i just felt uncomfortable the whole time...


so im slowly moving in a direction of my own...she hasnt moved one way or another about our marriage, but seems to be done with the OM, and the summers here and instead of planning a family vacation, im moving into a smaller apartment (albeit back in our hometown and in a nice neighbor hood). that also said, taking my son out on playdates with some of his classmates and their parents has helped make some new friends (for me and my wife) and my son seems to be dealing with it ok. he also seems to be along a bit further than the rest of his classmates, esp. in arts and crafts, vocabulary and critical thinking...



so thats where im at right now.


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## Chaparral

Good luck Elph. The dating is big progress even if you are not comfortable with it yet , that will change for the better.

Look up Pidge, she ahs BPD, and is very knowledgeable.

I can't remember the thread right now but another poster is divorcing a BPD victim because she has it really bad and he has had to give up .

Be strong and keep on being a good dad.


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## keko

elph said:


> she hasnt moved one way or another about our marriage, but seems to be done with the OM,


Haven't read your story yet but just this part shows how much of a fence sitter she is.


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## elph

i wont deny that shes a fence sitter, but my therapist has told me that its likely that her therapist has told her to take some time to "clear her head' and heal so if she does decide to comeback shell be in abetter place mentally...something shes been working on with me so if it does happen, i can handle it from a better place and not just a place of anger and resentment...


her mom though has also reminded me that her lease is up in july as well, and she didnt want to comeback to the house because now it harbors all kinds of bad memories and such...


so who know what direction shes gonna take...


and chapparel, thanks for theinfo on pidge...ill look that up as well.


the one thing ive read about BPD and what my therapist tells me is its not easy...in alot of ways its like dealing with a child...

like i said earlier, to me it just seemsed like her being a woman, and really has never bothered me...but the need to constantly fill a void externally that can never be filled is a challenge. 

the one thing my therapist suggested, something shes an expert in, is if (big IF) we get back together is that i must, in very black and white, define the boundaries and adhere to them with no flex....much like with a child, everything else ive dealt with her in the past 18 years has been a breeze...but now knowing these things i could adjust and be more conscious of how to deal with her...that said i must understand one of the biggest problems i face with BPD is that she is emotionally immature and her ability to feel remorse may never come, her ability to be introspective might never be there, and thats just something i might have to accept.


well see, time to keep packing....


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## keko

elph said:


> i wont deny that shes a fence sitter, but my therapist has told me that its likely that her therapist has told her to take some time to "clear her head' and heal so if she does decide to comeback shell be in abetter place mentally....


Sounds like she's on the market for another/better OM.


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## bandit.45

If she has BPD.......run.


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## turnera

elph, BPD is just one rung lower than multiple personalities, and that is just one rung lower than the worst of the worst - psychopaths.

Read some more threads to see the men who have moved on...and kicked themselves for waiting so long.


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## elph

turnera said:


> elph, BPD is just one rung lower than multiple personalities, and that is just one rung lower than the worst of the worst - psychopaths.
> 
> Read some more threads to see the men who have moved on...and kicked themselves for waiting so long.


Heres the thing though. Something my therapist told me. She said that ayer ability to maintain a long term relationship and employment sets her apart from the normal high level BPD. As well she's making a conscious decision to deal with it as opposed to denying. So they've labeled her with traits. Not full blown. Plus. I've never had a problem with her and how she acts with the exception of this affair. My therapist assumes that this episode seems to be triggered by high stress. In this case the birth of our son and a few things elated to afterwards. 

As well her biggest issue related to her bpd is abandonment. (as opposed to rejection with the narcissist.) as my sons gotten older to he's gravitated toward me which seems to affect her. 

But again, I will say this. In all honesty. In the 18 years we've been together, it's never been an issue and any crap she's thrown my way, I've dealt with. But I will read those threads. Just because knowing is half the battle. 



Yeah, I said it. (g I joooooeeee)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

Oh and to throw it out there, her parents got divorced when she was a toddler. I've been with her since we were 17 and I've never met her father. I don't think she's had contact with him since she was 14-15. And he moved out of state and married into a family with other daughters he took on as his own 

So to say she has daddy issues with abandonment issues is where it lies. But again. It's never been a problem till now. 


Coupled with the fact her mom somewhat shielded/coddled her doenst help. But it is what it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

I was abandoned by my mom when I was six.

I never cheated on my wife.

Excuses. Thats all your wife is. 

And that's all you are... excuses. 

Hell, you two were custom made for each other, and in some ways you're even worse than her....because you support and perpetuate the excuses. 

Stand up for what is right once in your life and divorce this hag.


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## turnera

elph said:


> It's never been a problem till now.


Just so you know, for a female, daddy issues are THE ISSUE with females. They have ALWAYS been a problem; she just found a way to compensate for them.

My dad left when I was 12, married when I was 16, and told me as soon as he was married (obviously prompted by the She-Devil) that, since I was 16, I could drive to see him from now on. And then he promptly adopted She-Devil's 16 year old son, and She-Devil made a point of pointing out every year how her son now stood to inherit anything my dad would have left (after She-Devil got done with it). To say that my daddy issues were the core of my persona would be a huge understatement.

Don't say they haven't been an issue. They have.


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## bandit.45

turnera said:


> Just so you know, for a female, daddy issues are THE ISSUE with females. They have ALWAYS been a problem; she just found a way to compensate for them.
> 
> My dad left when I was 12, married when I was 16, and told me as soon as he was married (obviously prompted by the She-Devil) that, since I was 16, I could drive to see him from now on. And then he promptly adopted She-Devil's 16 year old son, and She-Devil made a point of pointing out every year how her son now stood to inherit anything my dad would have left (after She-Devil got done with it). To say that my daddy issues were the core of my persona would be a huge understatement.
> 
> Don't say they haven't been an issue. They have.


Did your issues lead you to cheat on your spouse?


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## iheartlife

elph, not sure if you spotted this BPD discussion, maybe you might find it parallels your situation / highlights the issues you were having

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...n/48178-its-official-im-getting-divorced.html


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## Eli-Zor

Elph

Thanks for the update. Setting up your own home is an opportunity for you to stake your home and exclude your wife from it. I understand in the past your wife has had access to your house for various child reasons , the day you move is the day you bring that intrusion on your home to an end.

I would also suggest you let go of your wife , your in limbo while you maintain contact and a live in a pretend marriage . You wife is very comfortable with this status and will continue to be for years. Go to mediation and force a closure . The end result is your wife will be made to decide she is with you and commits or she is not. 

I don't have the power to tell the future I can however give you an observation: your wife is very content with the status today , she has you , she very likely still has the OM your just not aware of the contact , she has her mother , her therapist , her friends all giving her reasons why she is like this , reasons such as she is ill, she is confused. Her life is full of excuses included her now perhaps BPD traits .

She wants to be with you but not prepared to step up to the mark. I will say this plainly , she is looking for sympathy and has no intention of changing while you maintain the status quo.

Get the process for divorce running , this will give you a time schedule to run to. I have said before you must go dark on her , your reason then was your son , that reason will never go away unless you make and implement a plan to work around it . The day will come when you find a woman who is interested in you and having your wife hanging around will not help you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

iheartlife said:


> elph, not sure if you spotted this BPD discussion, maybe you might find it parallels your situation / highlights the issues you were having
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...n/48178-its-official-im-getting-divorced.html


Thank you for that link, it was a very interesting read. I'll say uptown sure knows his stuff, lead, I believe by a mountain of experiance. 

I ve what he says about the therapist roles in all this. But this seems to be where my wife's situation seems to deviate. 
My therapists started to referring to these behaviors without giving it a name 6 months ago. She just refered to her as emotionally immature. And again, said he ability to maintain long relationship and employment sets her apart. 
Also when my MIL told me about it, it came about because my wife told her, as she was told by her therapist. 
This is where the deviation starts because there has been no problem tackling it head on by either therapist (as opposed to dodging the situation) and conversely my wife has also tackled it head on trying to understand and deal as opposed to denying it and saying everybody else is crazy (per convos with my MIL). 

It seems that most BPDers avoid and deny. And that hasn't been the path my wife has taken. She's been determined to continue treatment as opposed to running away. 

As some key else tried to state that I'm making excuses. I'm not. Even tho they seem to be related, I'm handling the affair and the BPD as two seperate things. 
The affair is an event, the BPD is part of who my wife is. And for the past 18 years it hasn't been a problem. Mostly because it hasn't reared its ugly head. She's never been the controlling type ( and i think some might refer to her being subtlety manipulative, like she mayve been during the affair) but I look back and see how that's not been the case. As a matter of fact I could say that before the birth of our son I'm the one who's been a little more " controlling". Or really, just more in charge or "alpha" if you would. Something that not only she found attractive, but a dynamic that worked very well in our relationship. (and one that I think works in general for most. See MMSL and athols stuff) 

The affair itself and her actions are its own seperate issue to me because with it she's acted out of sorts during. (the fog). Do I believe that her BPD mayve contribute to it? Yes. I'm sure it mayve led to her getting into that situation because of her issues. However I'd be a chump to allow that to be an excuse from her. And from what my MIL is saying, she's not using it as one. She's looking at the BPD as to why she's felt certain things at certain times (the last time she had depression at the loss of her uncle back in the mid 90s) and how she deals with other people. As well how it mayve contributed to the relationship she was in when we broke up years ago before we got married (that one was with an physically and emotionally abusive ass) and now with the narcissist she was in an affair with. (as labeled by both her therapist and mine). 

Again, this recent diagnosis isn't an excuse. And nobody is shying away from it. Which really is a first from her, she's doing her research and even confronting her mom in her role in it, something that my MIL says hasn't been easy. 

I guess I can be labeled as many things. And maybe because in the past I've never seen these traits come out as they have recently , I could just be a fool. But I've always had a good handle on my wife. I just thought she was being a woman. Or at worst a spoiled little brat. (her being an only child). I now see that it was the emotional immaturity part showing itself. But it's never been a major issue. Never interfered with our relationship or how we dealt with things. And when that immaturity did show I would be for minor things of what lead to her passive attitude about certain issues, but that just because im a much more direct headstrong kinda guy. 

The question then beckons. If it hasn't been an issue these past years, why should it be now? Obviously I would take it into account when dealing with her and her sh!t tests. And any other crap she dishes out. Just like before. And in fact having a name just helps deal with her issues more directly. The reality is I made a vow in sickness and in health. If this is a sickness it something that I've dealt with very well. And like somebody said, we might be custom made for each other. But not in a way that was detremental to each other. Quite frankly with the exception of the affair we were quite happy. We had our little issues or problems, but no different than any other married couple. (what's for dinner, where to go on vacation,etc)

But at the end of the day, the affair is the bigger issue. Dealing with that has been the far bigger problem. To me the BPD is part of who my wife has been all these years, and it hasn't detered the way I've felt about her then and won't change now. That might be codependency, it might be a symbiosis. It might be something that has just worked all these years. 

The affair though was prompted by her ,as she said in the past , by my critisism and neglect and lack of romance. . Something that she's now seeing as exaggerated in her head ( per her therapists recommendations). However the only thing that was correct was the declining romance ( something that SMS to happen to most couples after birth of first child)
In fact we were like every other normal couple. The affair she has said was inexcusable. It was because she lacked boundaries. That sh allowed herself to be manipulated like before ( the relationship with the abuser) that she fell for the OMs pseudo confidance/caring bull. When in fact he was just a selfish controlling and manipulative mamas boy. 

She may be trying to grasp the situation. And understand the whys of both the affair, and the BPD. As well as how to handle it when it comes to our son. She maybe tying to heal. And possible she may try to come back to the marriage. If she does nothing changes in my requirements of what I expect from her, BPD or not. But she may find that the longer she has taken, the harder it is for her because I've been regaining those things that I was before we started dating. The confidence. The "swagger" if you will. And she knows at some point that means trouble for her. And all the wonderful ladies out there. I've been healing. And there's no way that's not a positive no matter what happens. 

I'm not looking to getting back together like before, but instead looking at this with a chance to grow as a person. If we do decide to continue the family and the marriage it would be very easy to see how, if she meets my requirements, this could be a better marriage. 
And if she doenst, it's very easy to see how I'm gonna make somebody else a very lucky woman. Because they will be getting a much wiser much more complet person than I was 18 years ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

One more thing I wanted to add about the BPD thing. My therapist has said once the diagnosis has been made, in this case there's no reason to keep referencing it to her. Unlike others she isn't trying to convince me that I'm crazy or wrong or gas lighting. She has taken the responsibilty to see that she's the one that had the issue and now it's a matter of her therapist tackling all the little details that revolves around that. That her stepping up and dealing with it already sets her apart and gives her a better chance at dealing with it than others. 

And in some weird way, I'm kinda proud of her for dealing with it like the way she has because it definatly shows some growth on her part. If not for our relationship. But for her as a person. For as much as I am angry and resentful and some what hate filled at the situation and the OM and her involvement. I do still care about her. And outside of this she still is a good person who has made some insanely stupid selfish decisions. and she is still the mother of my child and instill want her to be as good as a mom as she can be. Even though she can't teach him squat about morality. 

There are times when I wish she would just go away and I could care less about her. But then there are times when I do care and can't forget about our 18 years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

The concern I have for you is you are not calling a time out, your analysis today like your analysis of your situation in your previouse posts is fairly accurate , the missing now is your plan of action. Your wife has had her day and yet is still not changing nor is she showing signs of returning to the marriage, she is weaning herself off you not visa versa. At the end of the day your wife will be the one to D you when she is ready. 

To give yourself and your marriage the best chance the dynamics have to change. One can procrastinate forever , taking tough action brings the cold light of reality to your wife and gives you the choice to take the road you want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

So from what I can infer by your post above, the BPD is the new, fashionable reason to be forgiving towards your wife who is still actively cuckolding you.

Instead of giving you more reason to end the mariage, this BPD theory has given you just another hole to bury your head in.

Elph you are something else.

KING OF DENIAL 

:allhail:


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## happyman64

Elph,

EliZor is right. You have put your life on hold for over a year and that my man is insane.

I read your whole thread today.

I understand you love your wife. That woman has no longer been your wife for over 2 years.

i also see that you think of your anniversaries and that you have been married for over 18 years. And no you are not married 18 years because she ditched you over a year ago.

I am not saying this to hurt you but to show you that you are stuck in limbo and you are acting as if you are still in a marriage.

I think it is admirable the love you have for that woman but if it is not returned then you are only kidding yourself.

She is a big time fence sitter. It is time to shake it up my man.

File for divorce, move forward to egt out of limbo and do not let her put it off. That is one thing she could do for you if she has any love left for you at all.

She owes you that! A clean quick divorce. 

That will give her what she needs in order to fix herself. She is worthless to you as a woman.All she is good for is to be the mother of your son.

*And Elph, she is incredibly selfish!

And she does not deserve you!

Go find a great woman that will love you forever!*

Print this message out and send it to her when you ask for a quick divorce.......

HM64


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## morituri

Be careful with the dating. It would not be fair to any woman you get involved with if part of your heart was still pining for your cheating wife.


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## elph

bandit.45 said:


> So from what I can infer by your post above, the BPD is the new, fashionable reason to be forgiving towards your wife who is still actively cuckolding you.
> 
> Instead of giving you more reason to end the mariage, this BPD theory has given you just another hole to bury your head in.
> 
> Elph you are something else.
> 
> KING OF DENIAL
> 
> :allhail:


And you sir are an ass. 

Actually no where did I say it was fashionable. Nor did I use it as a reason or an excuse. The only part you got right is that it is new. 
I actually said it doenst give her a reason or an excuse. 
I said it was the reality of a part of her. But it doenst influence things one way or the other. The affair is the problem in my eyes. If my wife has had BPD her whole life and it hasn't been a problem then I don't see why it should be a problem now. I understand other people have had relationships with BPDers and it has worked out because things got extreme and the left. And they had every right. Things like this can affect people like any other major change and how people deal with it is their personal decision. To condemn all who have it seems extreme. And should be a case by case basis. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. The only answer though is to gain as much knowledge as possible and make a educated decision based off that 

So no, the BPD doenst change a thing. The only thing that changes is How I deal with her going forward. Marriage or not. I still have to interact with he regarding our son. 

And I appreciate everybodys comments. As I've indicated. There've been a couple of dates. And yes I understand the thoughts on those. I guess really I could just call them social interactions because I wasnt really looking for anything but to get out of the house. My focus is getting situated in the new place. Then going back to school. Because my job is boring the crap out of me. Then to continue to focus on myself n my son. ( lotsa summer plans, soccer, art classes, playdates). What my wife does is her business and I have no control over. There could be things my MIL isn't telling me. Or she knows something and is trying to help. My therapist (or psychologist really) says what my wife is doing post affair is sound and smart because if she does decide to come back a clear head is nesacarry) but I'm not counting on it. 

And I've gotten in to the show how I met your mother. And Barney is awesome. So maybe I'll make my place look like his. But a bit more kid friendly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

O gee, sorry elph. 

I forgot it was our job to butter your a*s and make you feel good about letting your woman own you. You know what, go on the way your going, and maybe in five or six years she'll get tired of her boyfriend and get off the fence and go back to being an ideal wife...if she doesn't hook up with a second OM first. 

Unbelievable....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

It's nobodies job to butter anything. But I think there are posters here who e done a far better job at offering constructive critisism with coming off like an ass. I don't know what your spouse did to u. And I'm sure your probably one of those who takes an extreme stance on infidelity. And that's your right. But to assume that every situation is just like yours and should act accordingly is unbelievable. 

Everybody deals with infidelity thier own way. Because I'm not firing off at this point and scorching the earth in fury doenst mean I'm not trying to handle things. But I have a son to take into account so I can't just go off and bail. If I didn't have him, I would be a whole different thing. 

I am furthering my life and quite frankly am enjoying having the time to myself. I actually have time to do things on my own. Catch up on stuff I've been wanting to do. And because I have a good relationship with my MIL and aunt in law. I can get them to babysit with little problem. I don't like the down sizing I have to do but I'm lucky I have a therapist who's helped redefine my mindset to look at it as a positive not a negative. Luckily I was a pretty independent person before I met my wife. So that kinda stuff hasn't been a problem. 

She was never ideal. I often considered her a spoiled little brat sometimes because she could come off as a 4 year old. Now having a 4 year old I find that to be quite the truth. I dealt with her as such then and somehow that always seemed to work. 

When that relationship fails (if it has t already) shell find herself like a lot of WS wondering what's next. But she'll have a son who's already rejecting her and a husband who has started to move on. The problem is my son still asks if mommys coming back. Who still wants his family back. So long as that's something he might want, I may honor it. BUT it will be on my terms and nothing else. Pure black and white. If not then no loss at this point. I've become accustomed to and am enjoying being on my own. And once I really get in shape and truly get my swagger back. Then the world is my oyster. And she'll have to compete with the younger better looking women out there. Either way it's all the same to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Oh Elph,

I just hope you do not get disappointed. It is like your wife decided to move out of the house and start dating but she forgot she was married and has a child......

I do not worry about the posom, I worry about the next one or two as she tries to find herself. And sadly she is going about it the wrong way.

But if you can live with it and let her keep you hanging that is your choice.

And I get it, Elph 2.0 is in the making. I just hope your next clone kicks her ass, tells her to grow up and finds a new beautiful woman who is not selfish and knows who she is.

Like I said, you deserve it, dont't you think so too?

Hm64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

elph,

bandit.45's stbxw had an affair in year 3 of their marriage. He chose to forgive her, go through some heavy duty counseling (shelling out thousands of dollars) and finally recovered. Sadly, at the end of last year, she started an EA with another man. She was going to go meet the OM in San Diego to turn it into a PA when bandit found out and called her out. He considered giving her another chance except that she still chose to go out to meet the OM and have a whole weekend of sex with him. From that point on, bandit realized it was useless to try to reconcile with her and proceeded with filing for divorce. He dedicated himself to 21 years of marriage to a woman who was not worthy of being his wife.

His harsh words to you are his way of warning you not to make the same bad choice he made. It's one thing to be betrayed once, but twice betrayed is very damaging to a loyal spouse. And speaking frankly, your wife has shown she may never be ready for marriage because she is a broken woman, and now more so with the possibility of her having BPD.


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## bandit.45

Thanks Mori. I can be too short sometimes. 

Elph, you are living in an open marriage with a woman who cannot commit to you. Either get a girlfriend of your own or live as a cuckolded monk, and safety net for an unworthy person. The BPD has nothing to do with anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

There is a reason why morituri is one of my favorite posters on this board. And he proves it once again. 

Therefore I apologize bandit for reacting harshly. Now knowing your story I understand. And with that knowledge I can handle things better. 


Here's something my therapist asked me when we brought up the BPD thing. 
She asked that if the affair wasnt an issue, would it affect my issue to be with my wife. I said no. To me I've been dealing with it for quite some time and makes her the same to me either way. No different than if she had a disease or other ailment. I had married her knowing who she was. This just gave it a name. But has t changed her or the way I deal with her in that regard. In alot of ways she's still the same person I married. 

However the affair is a different story. That's what has to be dealt with. The BPD is a non issue to me. 

Also it's funny you mention the broken thing. 

Some time ago she told me a fight they had.(this was last year) he said to her " I don't want a broken T, I want a fixed T" 
I laughed because I told her that it was interesting that he wanted her to change and he basically told her she was flawed and didn't accept her for who she was or she wasnt good enough. It was a matter of time before he started commenting on her weight. (something I found he did with his exwife frequently. My wife is shaped differently and not thin by no stretch but she's voluptuous and thick like I like em. But has been putting on weight since the affair started )

I guess she's broken. She's definatly not the same because of the affair, but at the same time many things are. 

I get bandits learyness. I totally do. 
But I've also learned that regardless of this outcome everybody has the potential to cheat. I do she does my next girlfriend does. 

But if I handle my business, a lot like dr Harley and athol suggest, then I minimize the possibility. The only differnce is me and my wife has history and I have insider info on her.and a son. Other than that. It's all the same
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elph

happyman64 said:


> Oh Elph,
> 
> I just hope you do not get disappointed. It is like your wife decided to move out of the house and start dating but she forgot she was married and has a child......
> 
> I do not worry about the posom, I worry about the next one or two as she tries to find herself. And sadly she is going about it the wrong way.
> 
> But if you can live with it and let her keep you hanging that is your choice.
> 
> And I get it, Elph 2.0 is in the making. I just hope your next clone kicks her ass, tells her to grow up and finds a new beautiful woman who is not selfish and knows who she is.
> 
> Like I said, you deserve it, dont't you think so too?
> 
> Hm64
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just wanted to take an extra moment to say thank you for your advice too. 
I do deserve it. As well to live the best life possible and give my son the best life possible. Maybe all will be one in the same. It I'm prepared for them Not to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko

elph said:


> I just wanted to take an extra moment to say thank you for your advice too.
> I do deserve it. As well to live the best life possible and give my son the best life possible. Maybe all will be one in the same. It I'm prepared for them Not to be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Also think of the example you're setting for your son. Its understandable you want the old days back but do you want your son to go through the same situation and stay in limbo for years?


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## elph

keko said:


> Also think of the example you're setting for your son. Its understandable you want the old days back but do you want your son to go through the same situation and stay in limbo for years?


Thanks keko. As well I also don't want him to grow up with the long term problems either I or my wife has having come from divorced families and to have the same resentment I have towards my mom. So really it's just all kinds of messed up 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Elph, I have fussed at you before for several things. But frankly, I find the posts you have made in this last update to be remarkable and I think you are getting a lot of heat for your earlier behavior.

That you have had two dates, though not anything to write home, about is great. There is life after infidelity. As a matter of fact if it weren't for infidelity, I would not have my two wonderful kids.

(@ bandit, its not too late for you to get this message, find a younger woman, and find what the most wonderful thing in the world is, this is the second time you have been given the oppurtunity)

Another ray of light you are showing, is the realization that there are younger, better women out there than your wife if she doesn't come around. Actually, seeing you moving on would help her in many ways whether that be with you or not.

A good way to find a good woman is to go to places where available women can see you with your son and see what a great father you are. That, as you have read, raises your sex rank.

I think it is taking you a long time to move forward but you are young and you can afford to get this right. Where your wife is screwing her self, is leaving you alone to realize how well you can do with out her. And giving you to much time to think about what she has done to you with out giving you any kind of reward for staying loyal to her.

I do agree with some of the other posters in that I think right now, there is more of a chance that she will find a new OM than that she will come back to you. The only way I can see, that would change that, is if you start dating and she gets jealous.

What did she say abut your two dates? How is she treating you? Does she want to be around you?

Do what you think is right for your family Elph
Good luck to you and your son,

Chap


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## turnera

bandit.45 said:


> Did your issues lead you to cheat on your spouse?


 No, they didn't. But daddy issues and willingness to cheat are two separate issues. Once a person DOES cheat, you need to keep the others issues in mind when dealing with the cheater.


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## turnera

bandit.45 said:


> Thanks Mori. I can be too short sometimes.


bandit, we know your pain and understand your POV. But when you try to give advice and you do it by humiliating the poster, they have no choice but to defend themselves - and forget all about what you were saying, valid advice or not.


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## turnera

elph said:


> Thanks keko. As well I also don't want him to grow up with the long term problems either I or my wife has having come from divorced families and to have the same resentment I have towards my mom. So really it's just all kinds of messed up
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Think of what things you would want your son to know, to be able to grow up happy and healthy. Key issues. Then decide your future actions according to those things. If what you do to keep your wife goes against those things, you are teaching him that just keeping a warm body by you is more important than keeping your integrity and dignity. Because he WILL turn out just like you. If you can keep her while still doing the right things, great. But if you find yourself going down that slippery slope and giving up your rights, dignity, or integrity just to keep her...think twice, ok?

Just remember that it's not the divorce that screwed you up - it's how your parents HANDLED the divorce that screwed you up. Your son CAN handle a divorce because he has an amazing dad to make up for it. If it comes to that.


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## elph

hey everybody,

i just wanted to give an update to the situation at hand...

there have been things both good and bad..


first the good. 

basically two weeks ago i got a text from my wife saying that she hated me and wanted me to leave her alone...at 7 in the morning.
i called her to ask her ehat it was all about and basically got it our of her that the text was meant for the OM. we got into a fight over it, and i basically came down to me saying make an appointment with the mediator, or ill make an appointment with the judge (for the legal seperation still pending)
my wife would go on to have a major panic attack later that morning. inbetween then my friend had called to let me know that she had been talking to my wife the past few days after her last therapy session how she was ready to comeback and make it work...but before then(and after our fight) she went up to the om in front of everybody and told him she hated him and ruined her life (cofirmed by other coworkers)

suffice to say weve started the long painful process of reconciliation. 

ive laid down the rules. ive set the boundaries according to the most common techniques that work. ive continued my own self improvement for my self, a letter of no contact has been written and will be sent certified mail to the OM (and im planning on sending a copy to her HR department) and were talking about getting a bigger place together....but most importantly my son is soooooooo happy that were going to work it out. his art has changed and the things he draws. his story lines for the toys he plays with have also altered. when she told him "how would you like it if mommy moved back?" he was so happy. 


now the bad news. 

2 days after all this i find out that my company is folding and ill be laid off at the end of the month...so the job search starts. this doenst help the stress level of things, but my wifes maternal instinct has kicked in big time. shes often say sthat one of the things she wanted the most was to be able to take care of me...im a pretty independant person so its been hard, but shes bending over backward to help...as well shes been pretty upfront about things and has answered any question i ask, even though its been somewhat uncomfortable. she cancelled her cell, got a new number under my family plan.

little things have changed in her and shes been pretty enthusiastic at starting over...we start seeing a counsleer in 2 weeks (shes on vaca right now)

i expect alot of hiccups and bad days. as well i expect some good days. and a few drunken nights...

and of course i ilive by the trust but verify creed right now..

ill try to update as this goes along, maybe even starta new thread int the other forum...

but at the same time i want to say thing you everyone for words of advice and wisdom as well as some of the negativity thrown my way...

this has been an awesome forum and i hope whatever i go through from here i can use to help others as well.


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## Chaparral

You have been through hell. I hope and pray you can pull this off and your family can heal. Good luck and best wishes. If you can work it out it will also give others hope.

Congratulations, it looks like you might just pull it off.

If you start a new thread be sure and put a link to it on this one?

Did you ever go out with anyone else? Did she find out?

Oops forgot yu had gone out ar least a couple of times. Did WW find out about that?


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## Shaggy

Maybe you should both be moving to a new town to get away from the OM permanently?


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## elph

Shaggy said:


> Maybe you should both be moving to a new town to get away from the OM permanently?


Chap- oddly enough that Saturday when she lost it I was gonna ask my sons soccer coach out. She's this cute afghani girl. But then I took him to soccer and she want there that day. My wife did come to one of the soccer classes and notices and mentioned that ot only was i talking to her a bit much but hat i stayed at a distance away from my wife She did know that I hung out with one of my sisters friend. 



As for moving to a different city, we're actually moving back to our home town. The house we bought was about 15-20 away. The OM is actually from a different city. As well her mom and aunt (outr babysitter) lives in our hometown. As is her job. So if anything I'm going to defend my territory in more ways than one. The goal is to set up a case where the company will have. I choice to transfer him. That's where the letter of. I contact will come in. He just got in trouble for threatening the job of one of his underlings. Something he cannot do. Hr was called in on that one again. That co worker appearently is going to escalate because he was t happpy with the result. The guy is on a thin wire. Though I don't know what it's gonna take. But Once she moves back in, and her company knows everything already , I'm pretty much gonna make an issue of him being there
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

You seem to be putting a great deal of faith in her - she's lied and lied to you for a long time. Don't get fooled by a false R.

what if she changes her mind again and runs back to him - are you sure this isn't some lovers tiff?


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## Eli-Zor

It is always good to see an update from you Elph. 

Sorry about the job, try sort out a new one pronto , you don't want this distracting you. 

As for the way forward:

I don't think you should go to counseling for a good while , with your wife's affair history, her continual contact with the OM and her being out of the home for so long the only way forward is for your wife to prove in her every day actions that she is in love with you. The word is "love" not acting out her perception of love or trying to second guess you. 

Elph I say this with the respect to you; because you are in love with your wife does not mean she is in love with you or has even grasped what she has done to the feelings a married couple should have for each other. 

Do not forget what actions she took to protect her affair, from having the OM at her apartment and exposing your son to him.

She spent a lot of time in therapy yet all it would have taken was a set of standard steps to get the OM out of her life and she did none of these. I think her therapy was an excuse to hide behind taking definite steps to stop the affair and your final ultimatum where she knew you would no longer be plan B is what changed her. 

Tread careful and do not hesitate to file properly if she is not doing everything to protect your marriage and evidence her love for you, there are no slip ups or second chances, no maybes or negotiations. She is a big girl and knows what to do to save your marriage, enough people including you, her mother, her aunt and her friends have told her. 

If she thought it was hard work with the affair, guess what; working on rebuilding your marriage is going to be much harder for both of you. Be patient, have zero tolerance if she contacts the OM in any way and be very prepared to walk away. 

Your marriage can survive and be a better one, continue to focus on yourself and your son, take each day as it comes.

Wishing you the very best.


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## warlock07

Still think you took her back very easily. IC is good but learning the hard way is even better for someone like your wife. All it took for her was to ask to come back!!


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## elph

Shaggy said:


> You seem to be putting a great deal of faith in her - she's lied and lied to you for a long time. Don't get fooled by a false R.
> 
> what if she changes her mind again and runs back to him - are you sure this isn't some lovers tiff?


you raise very good points. 

but i dont think im putting any faith in her at all...she hasnt earned it. im putting faith in my self to give it an honest go. i can say for sure that im approching this with a weary and watchful eye...any defensivness, and hesitation, and closed doors and i will either break them down or keep them shut and walk away.

but in this case were looking for a place together. and if it sours, ill leave this time. even though my job is questionable..i have enough saved up...

as for it being a lovers tif.

to myrecords theyve broken up and gotten back together 6 times in the past. my sources (spies at her job, including a department mangaer who LOATHES the OM) said that shes been avoiding him and hes been trying to weasel his way back in. acordding to my wife and another source, theyve been "done" since marchish and shes been following the advice of her therapist of giving herself some time to heal...so its not a spare of the moment thing, but the threat to take it to court mayve been the final straw. shes been talking about coming back with her friend for some time..


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## elph

Eli-Zor said:


> It is always good to see an update from you Elph.
> 
> Sorry about the job, try sort out a new one pronto , you don't want this distracting you.
> 
> As for the way forward:
> 
> I don't think you should go to counseling for a good while , with your wife's affair history, her continual contact with the OM and her being out of the home for so long the only way forward is for your wife to prove in her every day actions that she is in love with you. The word is "love" not acting out her perception of love or trying to second guess you.
> 
> Elph I say this with the respect to you; because you are in love with your wife does not mean she is in love with you or has even grasped what she has done to the feelings a married couple should have for each other.
> 
> Do not forget what actions she took to protect her affair, from having the OM at her apartment and exposing your son to him.
> 
> She spent a lot of time in therapy yet all it would have taken was a set of standard steps to get the OM out of her life and she did none of these. I think her therapy was an excuse to hide behind taking definite steps to stop the affair and your final ultimatum where she knew you would no longer be plan B is what changed her.
> 
> Tread careful and do not hesitate to file properly if she is not doing everything to protect your marriage and evidence her love for you, there are no slip ups or second chances, no maybes or negotiations. She is a big girl and knows what to do to save your marriage, enough people including you, her mother, her aunt and her friends have told her.
> 
> If she thought it was hard work with the affair, guess what; working on rebuilding your marriage is going to be much harder for both of you. Be patient, have zero tolerance if she contacts the OM in any way and be very prepared to walk away.
> 
> Your marriage can survive and be a better one, continue to focus on yourself and your son, take each day as it comes.
> 
> Wishing you the very best.



everything you said and then some...i laid down the rules for what i need to happen. i dont espect perfection, but i expect effort...some days will be better than others..

i gave her this book


How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful By Linda J. MacDonald 


i think its a great start for her to understand things in plain english...that said, i have to be patient to and not beat her over the head. we not only have to heal from the affair, but heal the marriage as well.

weve been talking about what went wrong, but shes also brought up things that were really WTF moments for her in the affair, how she was "caught up" 

ive told her that she wasnt caught up, but she knew exactly what she was doing adn that that excuse wasnt going to cut it. 

she knows what that means now. 

i dont know, i can remember, it was along time ago..things like that are banned from discussion. only truth. no matter how much it hurts.

so far, do i thing shes trying. yes. is she minimizing, possibly. does she want to make thing right? yes. shes agreeed to a whole buchof Bullcrap ive thrown her way that will make me feel better. 
like disposing of all her unmentionables...all of them..

she gave me a little trinket he bought her a long time ago. a buddy christ figure, and told me i can do what ever i want with it short of gong on a homicidal rampage in her store...( funny aside to that, when he gav ti to her, her first though was WTF am i supposed to do with that?)

these are small things, but a step in the right direction. 

so im cautiously opptomistic. so long as she keeps bringing it and is ready to pull the trigger at work, then so be it. if not, then ill go full napalm.


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## turnera

I suggest that you tell her you want a post-nup - if she ever cheats again, she walks away from the marriage with nothing. Now. See what she does.


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## Acabado

How many times did she broke up with OM only to go back to him? 


> she went up to the om in front of everybody and told him she hated him and ruined her life (cofirmed by other coworkers)


When was the last time she did *exactly this*? Was it January, February? She's addicted to drama, she got addicted to two men fighting for her, the possible RO, the police, coworkers all full aware, HR involved, BW there, tons of huge public scenes, MIL on her side no matter what, the pity parties, your son crying so many times. She didn't care for your son, ever, except to state it and drop cochodrile tears. She didn't care to wreck another marriage, she didn't care about her reputation, she didn't care about you.


> suffice to say weve started the long painful process of reconciliation.


For Peter's sake, let her make the search, let her find out the books, to get help online (Marriagebuilders?, survivingInfidelity? Divorcebusting?), let her wint you back. You layed the rules more than one year ago, she has been going IC. Stop carrying her like a child. Keeep her at arms lentgh. Wait for her to become humble enough. You behaved as her backyp plan from the very beginning, she knew she had you no matter what. By agreeing to R so easyly you confirmed (on more time) she doesn't have to do the heavie lifting.


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## elph

Acabado said:


> How many times did she broke up with OM only to go back to him?
> When was the last time she did *exactly this*? Was it January, February? She's addicted to drama, she got addicted to two men fighting for her, the possible RO, the police, coworkers all full aware, HR involved, BW there, tons of huge public scenes, MIL on her side no matter what, the pity parties, your son crying so many times. She didn't care for your son, ever, except to state it and drop cochodrile tears. She didn't care to wreck another marriage, she didn't care about her reputation, she didn't care about you.
> For Peter's sake, let her make the search, let her find out the books, to get help online (Marriagebuilders?, survivingInfidelity? Divorcebusting?), let her wint you back. You layed the rules more than one year ago, she has been going IC. Stop carrying her like a child. Keeep her at arms lentgh. Wait for her to become humble enough. You behaved as her backyp plan from the very beginning, she knew she had you no matter what. By agreeing to R so easyly you confirmed (on more time) she doesn't have to do the heavie lifting.



listen you raise very valid points. and yes, shes done the public thing before. it seems that with everybreak up theres been more and more stuff put between them. each time hes weasled his way back in. by saying something to her that willmake her angry, not calling, then waiting a few days. the differnece this time is that my wife recognizes the games hes playing. 


and yes, i laid down terms a while back, and reiterated them and held solid on them. and still they are not waverying.

everybody seems to think that i let her in easy. no this has been months in the making. and actually, once i got my own place and started showing that i could live with out her, she started kicking things into high gear. her friend (technically ours and one of my "spies") she talks to about her therapy sessions after wards. she doenst know the things she tells me. ive heard about the slow progress back, the realizations shes been coming too. 

the one thing ive noticed for people who go through this kinda thing, the one thing you look for when you know its time to reconcile, is remorse. NOT guilt. not fear. but remorse.

there wsa a list i printed out, i thing it was from pit of my stomach's, and shes hitting the head square on. thats the difference. its not about her now. in fact she text me this morn about how she wants to earn back my trust. she wants to rebuild our foundation, one brick at a time, but it starts with my building.


thats the difference.

and i understand about not holding her hand and making her work.
but i know my wife well enough. shes not and never has been a self starter. you point her in the right direction, she can take it from there. give her the keys, and shes okay.

shes a little immature that way. maybe part of the borderline thing...but she still has to read the books, still has to put forth the effort and energy, and it HAS TO be more than she put into the affair. and i know exactaly how much that is and what it feels like.

shes not getting off easy. at all.

im gonna make her work for it, make her work to recover fromthe affair.

and then were both gonna work on the marriage, together.


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## husbandfool

Ugh. After reading this I have no idea why you took her back.
But, I wish you good luck.


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## husbandfool

Ugh. After reading this I have no idea why you took her back.
But, I wish you good luck.


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## Plan 9 from OS

elph said:


> Chap- *oddly enough that Saturday when she lost it I was gonna ask my sons soccer coach out. She's this cute afghani girl. But then I took him to soccer and she want there that day. My wife did come to one of the soccer classes and notices and mentioned that ot only was i talking to her a bit much but hat i stayed at a distance away from my wife She did know that I hung out with one of my sisters friend. *
> 
> 
> 
> As for moving to a different city, we're actually moving back to our home town. The house we bought was about 15-20 away. The OM is actually from a different city. As well her mom and aunt (outr babysitter) lives in our hometown.  As is her job. So if anything I'm going to defend my territory in more ways than one. The goal is to set up a case where the company will have. I choice to transfer him. That's where the letter of. I contact will come in. He just got in trouble for threatening the job of one of his underlings. Something he cannot do. Hr was called in on that one again. That co worker appearently is going to escalate because he was t happpy with the result. The guy is on a thin wire. Though I don't know what it's gonna take. But Once she moves back in, and her company knows everything already , I'm pretty much gonna make an issue of him being there
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OP, I skimmed through this entire thread. I read every response you made plus skimmed a few comments to your posts. It was painful on a number of levels. I felt bad for how you were given such a raw deal by your wife. But I also noticed that you did exactly what you did not want to do - became a fall back plan for your wife. That was painful to see. I know you stated that your wife is going to have to do all of this heavy lifting, etc. etc. But based on everything we know in this thread - or at least from the posts that you've made - that you will let her off easy in the end. I'm sorry, but that's the way I see it. But take my advice for what it's worth. I've been married for 15 years and have 3 kids. We've never cheated on each other, separated nor divorced. I may not know what it's like to go through a divorce, but I've been through the "war zone" known as marriage. What has worked for my wife and I are that we strive to Love, Respect and Communicate with each other. IMO, these 3 are the most important components within a marriage that results in a stronger, deeper commitment over time. This is what you and your wife must do in order to reconcile this marriage - if possible. Metaphorically speaking, your wife needs to crawl a mile on broken glass to prove that she wants this marriage to work. Frankly, I don't think you have the stomach to see her do this. Again, I apologize for writing this but I believe this to be true.

Do you know what irritates me? You basically allowed your wife to spend well over a year having a long term relationship with another man while still married to you, and the moment she FINALLY sees you getting ready to move on from her by chatting up a cute girl, she immediately pounces on you and asks you to R. Funny how that works, isn't it? She constantly talked to you the whole time - while letting you know how "stretched out" the OM makes her feel after they have sex - constantly gauging you to ensure that you always stayed behind to pick up the pieces when she knew she was going to crash and burn. Yet the sight of and the thought of you getting friendly with another woman must have sent her over the edge. I feel bad for you. I really, really do. For your sake, I hope this R works for you because you sure as hell invested A LOT of time to bring it about. But I'll be honest with you, I think it's going to fail because I think she will lose respect for you again once she becomes more comfortable. And I do not believe that you will hold her feet to the fire about how hard she should work to make it up to you.


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## turnera

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Do you know what irritates me? You basically allowed your wife to spend well over a year having a long term relationship with another man while still married to you, and the moment she FINALLY sees you getting ready to move on from her by chatting up a cute girl, she immediately pounces on you and asks you to R. Funny how that works, isn't it? She constantly talked to you the whole time - while letting you know how "stretched out" the OM makes her feel after they have sex - constantly gauging you to ensure that you always stayed behind to pick up the pieces when she knew she was going to crash and burn. Yet the sight of and the thought of you getting friendly with another woman must have sent her over the edge. I feel bad for you. I really, really do. For your sake, I hope this R works for you because you sure as hell invested A LOT of time to bring it about. But I'll be honest with you, I think it's going to fail because I think she will lose respect for you again once she becomes more comfortable. And I do not believe that you will hold her feet to the fire about how hard she should work to make it up to you.


I was thinking the exact same thing.

What about the post-nup? Perfectly understandable to expect from her, given the enormity of what she's done. If you catch her cheating again, she's gone with none of your money, your retirement funds, the house - just gone. That way, either she'll be too afraid to cheat again, or she'll cheat and you'll get to keep everything. 

If you truly were ready to lose her, you should have no problem telling her you want her to sign one. 

Or are you really just afraid of losing her?


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## elph

Plan 9 from OS said:


> OP, I skimmed through this entire thread. I read every response you made plus skimmed a few comments to your posts. It was painful on a number of levels. I felt bad for how you were given such a raw deal by your wife. But I also noticed that you did exactly what you did not want to do - became a fall back plan for your wife. That was painful to see. I know you stated that your wife is going to have to do all of this heavy lifting, etc. etc. But based on everything we know in this thread - or at least from the posts that you've made - that you will let her off easy in the end. I'm sorry, but that's the way I see it. But take my advice for what it's worth. I've been married for 15 years and have 3 kids. We've never cheated on each other, separated nor divorced. I may not know what it's like to go through a divorce, but I've been through the "war zone" known as marriage. What has worked for my wife and I are that we strive to *Love, Respect and Communicate with each other.* I*MO, these 3 are the most important components within a marriage that results in a stronger, deeper commitment over time. This is what you and your wife must do in order to *reconcile this marriage - if possible. Metaphorically speaking, your wife needs to crawl a mile on broken glass to prove that she wants this marriage to work. Frankly, I don't think you have the stomach to see her do this. Again, I apologize for writing this but I believe this to be true.
> 
> .



Everybody is entitled to their opinion and point of view. im not offended.

i agree with those 3 key points as well. the love has always been there. the respect has wavered after the birth of our son, and the communication needs the most work.

that said, people seem to question why i took her back. of how it seemed to just happen over night.

it didnt. 

i know from other sources, that it had building for months. 

one of the things my therapist (and hers ) had said is to take time to heal before coming back to the relationship. 
i had been doing that, and its a path she started after march. 

i remember some ways back people saying"just file for divorce, itll knock her off the fence"

i do something similar and basically force her to go to the mediator or to the judge, that advice works, and now people arent happy with that. i just dont get it.
i got to a place where i was ready to move on, both inside and out. its really something you cant fake, and everybody gets there in thier own time and way. and along the way, i took the red pill (thanks ATHOL)



why did i take her back? i took her back because i know her better than anybody, i know her true character, not this 'alien pod person' she had become. i took her back because i could see in my sons eyes how much he wanted his family back and i knew how much is worth it to him to try.

if no body agrees thats fine. 
ive aslo learned that a lot of people have very extreme views whenit comes to cheating, and thats cool too. but not everybody sees it that way.

i dont see my wife as an evil person. she never has been. a bit weak minded, sure. but not evil. Shes made some horrendous mistakes. things she will regret for the rest of her life. Things i will never forget. 

will i make her crawl through glass to make this work.ABSOFRICKENLOUTLY!!! shes can do the heavy lifting away from me, but if i dont see it, it dosnt matter.

my therapist gave me on huge peice of advice through all this, and moreso once she figured out she was borderline.

the most important thing i can do is set hard boundaries. not only is it best for her, but for the marriage. set them and dont waver. let her get mad, but dont waver. not only will it create a better enviorment for her, but for the marriage, the respect will strenghten, and it will allow for stronger communication, because youll be forced to talk about things. 

there are now rules set. they used to be unspoken, or assumed. now we cut to the chase. 


one last thing. we didnt get the first place we were looking at. my wife is heart broken about it. she sent me these long texts about how her credit (or our credit) is screwed up now, and how hard it might be. how her selfishness desrtoyed all that we had worked for . how she deserves to be out on the street and how me and my son dont deserve any of her bad karma. 

its been weighing heavily on her all day, to the point where she got herself into another panic attack.

the only thing i could do was agree with her. cus it is her fault. but like eveything else well get through it, if shes williing to work and deal with the consequences.

and everytime i hear my son talkaboutgetting ALL of his toys in a new room and how happy he is now that mommy and daddy and him can do things together again, the more i know itll be worth the effort. 

it might fail now, or it might fail in 12 years. or it might succeed. but i wont know unless she tries.


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## elph

turnera said:


> I was thinking the exact same thing.
> 
> What about the post-nup? Perfectly understandable to expect from her, given the enormity of what she's done. If you catch her cheating again, she's gone with none of your money, your retirement funds, the house - just gone. That way, either she'll be too afraid to cheat again, or she'll cheat and you'll get to keep everything.
> 
> If you truly were ready to lose her, you should have no problem telling her you want her to sign one.
> 
> Or are you really just afraid of losing her?


i emailed my lawyer and am awaiting a response on a post nup.


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## happyman64

You know what Elph.

Good for you!

But please remember this.



> "You won't know unless she tries"


You will not know unless you try too!

Good Luck Buddy!


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## elph

happyman64 said:


> You know what Elph.
> 
> Good for you!
> 
> But please remember this.
> 
> 
> 
> You will not know unless you try too!
> 
> Good Luck Buddy!



yeah, but i already know i'm gonna try. i can try till the cows come home. but if she tries, does that heavy lifting, and does it with genuine sincerity... then i thing well be okay.

she called me again just a little bit ago crying. i thing with the apartment hunt and all its hitting her like a ton of bricks what shes done. 

i told her we could solve this in one quick move...just go up to the OM and kick him in the balls (and let me put it on youtube  ) actually wouldnt solve anything, but it'd make me happy...


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## happyman64

elph said:


> yeah, but i already know i'm gonna try. i can try till the cows come home. but if she tries, does that heavy lifting, and does it with genuine sincerity... then i thing well be okay.
> 
> she called me again just a little bit ago crying. i thing with the apartment hunt and all its hitting her like a ton of bricks what shes done.
> 
> i told her we could solve this in one quick move...just go up to the OM and kick him in the balls (and let me put it on youtube  ) actually wouldnt solve anything, but it'd make me happy...


That would make a lot of us happy too!


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## turnera

Just so you know, I'm all for people reconciling. As long as you're smart about it. The post-nup, a polygraph, some sort of legal agreement, will give her notice that you're seriously not willing to give her a million chances. That you love her, but require respect. She has to EARN your respect back, and it won't happen overnight. You need to see a good year of her contrition and her willingness to be open and transparent so that you can heal. Just keep that in mind, ok?


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## Plan 9 from OS

> i agree with those 3 key points as well. the love has always been there. *the respect has wavered *after the birth of our son, and the communication needs the most work.


I think out of those 3 things, the lack of respect was the worst. But I can only go on what you write and I'm sure you know your situation a whole lot better than I do. But if I were you, I would seriously hold her feet to the fire and demand to know why now - of all times - does she bring up R. I would also stress why she insisted on trying to manipulate you away from exploring this potential situation with the woman soccer coach. I see red flags - like hurricane flags fluttering in the wind. You deserve to know and you should demand it. I'm not advocating you become ******* and demand your pound of flesh; however, you need to come to the bottom of why is she trying to keep you away from dating when she spent roughly 18 months shacking up with a guy that "completely filled her up and more". Yeah, I'm playing up the sex part that she shared with you primarily to get you to think this through a little more. 

The last thing you should do is reconcile with your estranged wife for the sake of your son. I don't think your son should see his parents live to regret getting back together - especially his father who put up with so much in an attempt to "win her back".


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## elph

turnera said:


> Just so you know, I'm all for people reconciling. As long as you're smart about it. The post-nup, a polygraph, some sort of legal agreement, will give her notice that you're seriously not willing to give her a million chances. That you love her, but require respect. She has to EARN your respect back, and it won't happen overnight. You need to see a good year of her contrition and her willingness to be open and transparent so that you can heal. Just keep that in mind, ok?


you and i are totally on the same page...


and Plan 9... 

these conversations about possibly getting back together started a few months ago, but she was heeding her therapists advice of taking time to heal...at some point my therapist who agreed with hers also said that i should back off and giver her the chance all while healing myself. of course during the process of that, i was starting to get a little horny...

so it didnt just happen over night...as well my son started acting out a little more. when it was pick up time he cried how he didnt want to go to whoevers house...

and lastly, once i got out of our old house, the house that had so many bad memories, it also signaled a chance at a fresh start...she wansnt going to move back there, and i wanted out too, so i listed it, and moved a little early than i would have...but not because of my wife...because of my cats...its harder to rent with cats so i wanted a place ready just in case the bank pushed all the paper work through...i didnt want to be without a place.

(that said my cats are starting to piss me off, but thats a whole nother topic)


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## KathyGriffinFan

elph said:


> you and i are totally on the same page...
> 
> 
> and Plan 9...
> 
> these conversations about possibly getting back together started a few months ago, but she was heeding her therapists advice of taking time to heal...at some point my therapist who agreed with hers also said that i should back off and giver her the chance all while healing myself.


Did the therapist also tell her to continue to see the OM? Was that healing too?

Did I read correct that the day she broke up with him, for the 6th or 7th time, she got back together with you and you're now heading down the path of R? Sorry to seem skeptical, but at the very least, listen to others and cover yourself financially.

Your story sounds very similar to HurtinginTN and I think I gave up on it last year. When you read a story on here and stick with it, inevitably you become attached to the virtual stranger and root for them. I was done with this thread last year because it was just so frustrating to read. 

It was reading the same thing over and over again for months. It read like a broken record. You might as well just put:

_I'm moving on slowly. Wife wanted to talk. She told me about the OM. We fought. They broke-up. They aren't seeing each other. Never mind, they got back together. I think things are changing. I'm exercising._

It was that on every page, lol. It became redundant to read and I have no idea how you put up with it for so long. I think if you had really put an effort into the 180, you may have nipped this a longgggg time ago, but you couldn't rip yourself away and let it fester, being roped back in to an argument time and time again. Tipping your hand every time that you aren't going anywhere.

Well, as far as the positive goes, I hope you guys make it and she turns around and treats you right. 

I was a BPD'er when I was younger. Probably from 19-24 were my worst times. I'm a few years older and was the small percentage that grew out of it, although I still have my moments. If you recognize that she may not be progressing with it, you may want to read "I Hate You - Don't leave Me." Very good read on BPD.

BPD'ers tend to see things in black and white, with them there is no grey. I'm surprised she didn't shift you to the friend zone after discussing some very personal things between her and the OM. Let me tell you one thing, if she starts to get better, she's going to analyze your relationship and may see it as unhealthy.

You know what the joke is right? _No one stays with a BPD'er, that isn't very unhealthy themselves._ Think about that.

If my husband were a "healthy minded" individual during my 19-24 years, he would have left me. He stayed because he was just as damaged, albeit, in his own way. We both acknowledge that if we weren't so damaged then, one of us would have broken up with the other one. Luckily, we both got over our issues around the same time. Otherwise, we wouldn't have made it. If I got healthy and he was still having his issues, which also led him to remain with me during 5 very turbulent years, I would have seen the light and walked out. As it was, it was very hard to stay.

Good luck Elph. Please update us when you get a moment.


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## elph

So Chapparal asked me how it was going a few weeks back, and ive been so busy witht he holiday that i waanted to give an update as to how were doing now...


we got a nice house in our hometown in a nice part of the school district. we also live close to some of my sons preschool classmates and have neighbors with kids my sons age. 

its taken a little while to get back in the flow of things. some stuff has been really easy. some stuff has been not so much. 

I have placed very strict boundaries on what isnt allowed. and we all know what that is. because shes back on my family plan checking the phone is easy. she also leaves it out everynight free for me to check. nothing is deleted, everything else has been pretty much an open book in those regards. so "trust but verify' has been in full effect. on that front, everything looks good. shes also been accountable for her time, where she is and with who.

we have a few counseling sessions under our belt. the holidays slowed things down a bit, but communication is being opened up. some parts are slow because our therapist is trying to have us avoid talking about the affair at home and with out her around. some of it does slip out, but the focus has to be on the marriage part and fixing what went wrong.

that said, there have some pretty big fights. she assumes i havnet changed, and i assume shes outta her mind(lol)
but in reality the fights are mostly over home stuff. the few that weve had about the affair is more about the aftermath stuff (me showing more emotion mostly. which i have to explain that im a little on the guarded side)
but shes also trying. our communication is better, not perfect, but better. shes definitaly kicked up helping around the house. other little things where shes been not so great in the past. shes putting it there...

and making it up to our son. 

thats been a HUGE part of whats been going on.

the change in his attitude and behavior has been amazing. every morning he asks if mom is here and what were doing today. he wants to do everything together. he started pedaling on his bike (finally) and now he loves going riding around the block together...the way he plays with his toys, the pictures he draws...all sooooooo improved. also weve made good friends with the neighbors, (both young married couples) and having that positivity has helpd.

at the same time, a pair of good friends have been having normal marital problems. and watching them go through there issues the past couple of months has made her realize how lucky she is...

its not all wine and roses. and we still have a long way to go. we have a lot to talk about still, things i need to get out, handle, issues that led her to do what she did...

there are times when shes sorry, times when shes remoreseful, and times when shes just a *****. 
times when i wasnt to hang out wither her, have fun, live normally, and days where i want nothing to do with her...and i tell her and she backs off..

by the way she talks about him when it does come up, i get the impression that shes completely over him...
i saw her phone bill from march to when she signed back on the family plan....and it pretty much confirms that it pretty much ended when she said...though it also looked like he tried to get her back a few times, and from what ppl tell me at her job he treats her indeferently...like the kind of guy who acts like hes better, or as one person put it, ha acts like he broke up with her...the exwife told me hes upped the level of douchiness to her too...and he wasnt so great to her around the holidays.



Its a process that moves alot slower than id like. but im a go go go kinda guy. there are days when its brutally exhausting. i definitaly have to remember that there is a time and place for certain things, and sometimes when i trigger, i just have to file it, and bring it up at a better time...


and for those who may be curious (because were all human) we have had a few bouts of "intimacy" helped by a bit too much wine. and yes those thoughts creep in..the day after. i really cant get hung up on them at the wrong time..cuz it really does a number on my head..


but we are progressing forward. im seeing what i need to see, and when i dont or i question somethng, i try to bring it up at the right time and handle it.

and sometimes, because of the low grade BPD, its like dealing with a child. not maddeningly so, but its pretty much the same issue we had before. her expectations. someitmes she still thinks things should be like they are int the movies or soemthing...then i bring her back down to earth. and talking about it helps. as does the zoloft...again, not perfect, but shes trying. and most of the time, i do see the effort. i see her willingness. it doesnt always work, but i see it..


so that the update on our road to reconciliation.

if anybody has any questions, ill do the best i can to answer...


and happy new year...


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## Shaggy

Why is she still working with him?


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