# Co-Parenting Challenges After Divorce



## Thomas0311

Hi everyone,

A brief history, then a few questions as I seek advice for how best to navigate things. Four years ago (I was married at the time) I discovered my wife was in an emotional affair. We spent 9 months in marriage counselling, at the culmination of it I uncovered that her affair had continued during the counselling and had turned physical and that she had two other confirmed physical affairs earlier in our 8 year marriage, and one while we were engaged in college. A serial cheater. This was about 3 years ago, I took my ring off, and we separated. In the interest of my daughters (5 and 8 now), I chose to go the no contest route and we both decided to tell people we were unhappy together, and felt that divorce was best. I always kept my daughters in mind, during this difficult time... confiding in close friends and relatives about the extent of what had happened. I moved on, and focused on my daughters and being the best father I could.

My ex-wife has signs of BPD, it wasn't until I was on the outside that I started to recognize her need for chaos in her life. Reflecting back I see myself as a different man, and I was broken and confused the entire marriage, it was codependency for sure... once out of it I started to heal a great deal. I became a better father, son and brother. I became confident in myself and my role in my daughters lives. In that I've been felt empowered and like I have a say in their lives (ironically more so than I had in our marriage, where everything had to go her way or else). I have a great relationship with both of my daughters, particularly the 8 year old who thinks and operates (mentally) very much like I do. We have joint custody, but she has about 75 of the time with the girls (a decision I made 3 years ago based on my situation at the time... and knowing I didn't want my career to fall apart because of the divorce. She was a stay at home mom. I wish I had figured out a way to make 50% work (daycare, family help) but I didn't so I'm at where I'm at now). I get them every other weekend Thursday - Sunday. I attend all of their sports and never miss appointments (our youngest has a heart condition and receives a lot of medical care... has had 3 open heart surgeries).

My ex-wife showed signs of repeating her same patterns with her dating life after our divorce, but I just observed this through patterns I noticed passively, and what my daughters would say about their lives and interactions with people. She moved from affair guy (the last one) quickly to another guy, but neither knew about the other. They overlapped a couple months. That next guy she was with for 18 months and he was involved with her family and my daughters. I liked him and met him a couple times, he was respectful and my daughters seemed to like him. About the last six months of their relationship my ex-wife was on dating sites and a new guy came up (who she ended up marrying this last summer). The reason I bring this up is because my daughter asked me about a year ago "is it ok to kiss two different guys?" and odd question from a 7 year old. So I asked her why she asked. We talked about it and she explained to me that she's met both of these men and sees her mother being affectionate with both, and being told not to tell each of them about one another. I told her, best I could at a 7 year old level, how she shouldn't hide things from people, and that her mother is likely doing that not to hurt the feelings of the two men... I used it as a lesson for her to know that it's not something I agree with, but that mommy has a right to do what she wants with her life. However, she might end up hurting the feelings of those guys and if she really cares about them she should tell them. My daughter asked if she should tell them, and I told her no... because of this I felt the need to bring it up from a context of "none of my business what you do in your personal life but I'd want to know if my daughter was seeing this kind of thing... so here is what your daughter has said to me."

Here is the first big challenge I'm facing time and time again. Whenever I confront their mother about a situation I feel is a less than ideal parenting decision on her part... she ends up punishing the girls for the knowledge. In this case, the next time I saw my daughter she told me "Mommy says she's really in love with (new guy) and that we can't see (old guy) anymore." so I guess that kind of solved the "problem" but I wonder how my daughter sees all of this and what the impact is on her. Honestly, I hate getting in the middle of it, but this is the link where we are tied forever... at least to a great deal while the girls are so young. I've learned that it's best to avoid getting involved in her life... but at times I get so upset at what I see and I fear my emotions about it affect how I react. I'm only human. 

My ex-wife married the guy ("new guy" above) this last summer. I had an opportunity to meet with him for dinner for the first time. They told me 3 weeks before the marriage and then moved into a house in the same neighborhood that my ex-wife and I used to live in (which is kind of awkward... I'm not sure how it's not weird for her). I chose to keep all of my history with my ex-wife to myself... and focus our conversations about my daughters and just trying to get to know this guy who is now going to be a significant character in their lives. It was then that I found out about when they started dating and how... it was clear in his description, and romanticizing their "love at first sight" and that he had a previous marriage 10 years ago but hadn't dated at all because he was so picky about finding "the one"... it seemed to me that he had been blindsided by her ways, and I could relate to how her and I first started (it seemed so perfect at first). He didn't know she was still involved, and her children, with this other guy about half the time they were together before getting married. Anyway, that's about her character... the reason I mention it. I did grapple with this tug of war in my head at the time... wanting this guy to know the history and who I was as a father to my daughters. I got the impression he was told I abandoned them, walked out... his advice to me seemed to center around hanging in there and trying to be more active in their lives. So I spent a great deal of this meal describing just how active I had been and my philosophies on parenting and the rest. It was cordial.. I left it feeling good about the guy.

Since that time things have headed south. I think a part of it is my ex-wife painting me as wrong in everything and working to be a victim in every exchange we have. They both seem to be actively trying to remove me from the girls life... like they are bothered I'm around. The regular date nights I take my daughters on have been pushed aside. I get e-mails from my ex that seem to be written from him (it's doesn't sound like her) that point to a lot of power moves and are written almost as though I'm lucky to have the time with them I do. I find myself getting so agitated and resorting to an older self of wanting to tell people how she is... who she really is. To validate my position of feeling so taken advantage of in all of this. I know this is unhealthy and it only serves to get more mixed up in the drama. It's a constant struggle to deal with someone who has this disorder. If things are chaotic she gets nice about stuff... when I'm stand-offish and stern... she's proper and nice. She's so masterful at finding ways to rope me in, in very subtle ways... like agreeing, in front of my daughter, to allow me to take her to dinner only to then send me an e-mail saying "oh so sorry... we're focusing on our new traditions now... it's not going to work this month... lets try next month." and I know this is her own issues that this year the girls are with me for Christmas and she's upset over that.

Are there any books or support groups in dealing with this kind of stuff. Single dads trying to stand up for their place in kids lives... and how to manage the landmines that get thrown out there from BPD personality exes. I'd say 95% of the time I'm ok, and everything works... I set boundaries and stick to them and I just work what I can in my own relationship with my daughters... but in the time where we have to communicate or work together on things. She is persistent in causing havoc. So much so that at times i feels like co-parenting, or attempting to, is actually more damaging to my daughters than simply ignoring her and trying to go at everything devoid of interaction with her.

Maybe this was just a lot of venting... I could really use some feedback and advice. Last night was tough on me. My daughter noticed we hadn't been on a dinner date in a while... and she was so excited when her mom said yes. I can only imagine her let down... and I'm sure her mom is not making this easy on her. I have a call with my lawyer this afternoon about this. As I understand it... if for the last 3 years we've had a regular routine (I have records, about 22 dinner dates each year total) of these dinner dates in the middle of the 10 day period I don't have my daughters... even though it's not in our agreement, it's been established and is a beneficial thing for the girls. Since their marriage the frequency has been cut in half. I'm going to pursue trying to get some kind of legal process underway to... force her to allow her daughters to maintain that relationship with me. I'm already dreading how she's going to deal with that... and can anticipate a million ways shell make it miserable for my daughter and me.


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## Marc878

You are their father. If you're not getting your time give her one warning and then lawyer up.

Don't make idle threats. Her new H has no business interfering with your parenting time. 

If they don't comply put the hammer down quick


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## MJJEAN

Simply explain that your parenting time is not to be interfered with, parental alienation is not something judges look kindly on, and that you will get a lawyer involved, if necessary. Then follow through.


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## Thomas0311

You're right. My gut tells me that the underlying issue here is that her new husband views this all from a different scope (when really he has no legal say in things). He has primary custody of his 12 year old son, with his own ex-wife who, as I understood it, is rather absent from his life and she sort of comes and goes so he's taken on the main responsibility for their son... in that he has a lot more power, say and control over the custody - he may actually be sole custody and just give her visitation. (my ex started calling my time visitation recently). Ever since he entered the picture she's gotten bolder in how she handles issues with the girls and speaks as though she's somehow got more than a 50/50 say in their lives. Some of the e-mails seems to be written from him (not her) because of the tone and words don't fit with what I know of her. 

I'm hoping that my lawyer sends a shot against their bow (for lack of a better term on this) and they both get the point... so we can avoid a costly legal battle. I wouldn't be surprised if he has not even read our separation agreement of divorce decree... he's probably advising her based on her interpretation and summary of it. That could be a costly mistake on their part... will let you know what the lawyer says this afternoon.


Some of the words from her e-mails on this:

"Our level of contact established in the PSA and divorce decree is clearly defined. However, nowhere in the documentation does is state that I am obligated to provide you X number of date nights per month."

"To further illustrate our support of your relationship with the girls, on 1 September you stated: “Between the two of them I’ve taken them on 22 dinner dates (two to three hours apiece) in the last year, and 19 in the previous year, or once each month.” Even in your own words it is evident I support your relationship with the girls prior to, and post my marriage, going above and beyond our decree."

"It is very clear I am enabling and encouraging your relationship with the girls. And just like you I am trying to build a relationship with the girls. My hope is that you would in turn respect my relationship with the girls and my family. To use my right to focus on my family during this busy month against me is unfair and honestly, quite hypocritical."

Since they got married 5 months ago they have blocked 5 of 10 of these dinner dates that used to be so easy to schedule.


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## Lostinthought61

I would VERY VERY clear to new guy that you are their father, and nay traditions are yours to create and not his...and i would seriously think about going back to court and request 50/50.


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## Thomas0311

Xenote said:


> I would VERY VERY clear to new guy that you are their father, and nay traditions are yours to create and not his...and i would seriously think about going back to court and request 50/50.


As I understand it that is difficult to accomplish. The 50/50 split after another ratio has already been established. My lawyer said you basically have to prove that it's in the kids best interest to add time to you and remove it from the mother. That it's not as simple as "equal time is fair"... but rather requires a lot of evidence (such as what I'm collecting above) and then a costly battle in court. I would absolutely go that route if I thought it was possible to achieve. I'll ask the lawyer again on that one.

The thing I do have going for me there is that our split was based on my understanding that our youngest was at home and not in school. We talked about 50/50 once school happened, but that was never in writing unfortunately. She now says she doesn't recall those conversations. My lawyer advised me to stop the short business trips (I used to be away on 1-2 week trips about every quarter) and establish more routine and stability at home... I've done that in the last year. Maybe I'm in a better place now to have the custody reassessed.


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## browser

Save all the communications from your exwife that show she's preventing you from seeing them regularly. That, coupled with the amount of time you have spent with them, and possibly along with their own testimony to a law guardian should get you an updated order that clearly states when you will have visitation with them. 

This is not something you want to sit on for too long otherwise she can try to make the case that you were somehow ok with it, even though it's understandable why a person in your position would not want to rush right back to court.


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## Thomas0311

browser said:


> Save all the communications from your exwife that show she's preventing you from seeing them regularly. That, coupled with the amount of time you have spent with them, and possibly along with their own testimony to a law guardian should get you an updated order that clearly states when you will have visitation with them.
> 
> This is not something you want to sit on for too long otherwise she can try to make the case that you were somehow ok with it, even though it's understandable why a person in your position would not want to rush right back to court.


Yes, you're absolutely right... my initial reaction was to wait on this until January to see if the new year improved. I didn't want it to be an issue these holidays... but now that it's been two straight months of it, I'm going to move ahead with things, legally.


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## Bananapeel

There are a couple of ways to handle this. Doing the lawyer thing is great IF you have more money than your XWW because every time you go to court it is going to cost her money as well as you. If you can afford the legal costs more than she can then you have an upper hand that she will soon realize and that will prevent a lot of the unnecessary problems. And getting the parenting plan modified is not that difficult to do. 

Now as far as how to deal with your kids, well that's an entirely different matter. With kids your job is to be the best role model in their lives. That means that it is not your job to protect your XWW's secrets from your kids or to tell them that what she is doing is right when it clearly is not. Be the parent that is honest with your kids, but answer their questions in an age appropriate and non-judgmental way. I always tell my kids that I will never lie to them. If they came to me with a question about mommy secretly dating two guys I'd ask them if they think it is right or wrong and discuss how we shouldn't do things that can hurt other people. I'd also discuss whether it is better to lie to protect someone's feelings or better to not do things that we have to lie about.


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## Lila

@Thomas0311, you mentioned that you and your wife share legal joint custody but you opted to have the girls every other thurs-sun only. Do you make up the 50/50 by taking them for weeks during the summer? If not, did your child support represent the fact that your wife had the kids 75% of the time? I'm just trying to figure out why you can't just exercise your legal right to 50/50 custody/visitation as that's what's written in your agreement. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## arbitrator

*I'm in agreement with those of my TAM cohorts who advocate an absolute minimum of a 50/50 custody split!

Get this legal process in action yesterday! Please don't miss out on being an integral part of these most formative years of your daughters lives!

Years fron now, they both will absolutely laud you for it!*


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## Thomas0311

Just got off the phone with my lawyer and feeling good about a path forward as it relates to these dinner dates. My lawyer said that she is essentially hanging herself as it relates to this situation, and advised that we begin by sending notice to her counsel. Her latest e-mail she stated:



> When you dropped the girls off, [daughter] asked for a date on Thursday. I said no we have church. You asked for Wednesday. I said that might work but I need to check my calendar. I forgot we had a commitment that evening with [new husbands]'s colleague.
> 
> Moving forward dates night requests need to be written - putting me on the spot is unfair [me: then why did you agree to it at the time and nod your head when I said I'll be here at 5:00pm to pick her up!?]. I don't have my calendar in front of me, it gets everyone's hopes up, and *I don't want to make a unilateral decision without consulting [new husband]'s schedule.*
> 
> With respect to this week/month, we have already had this conversation. See emails below.


My lawyer said that my ex is clearly putting her new husbands position in her daughters lives above mine and that my daughter doesn't need to miss going to dinner with me to visit with her new husbands work colleague. She said that according to our separation agreement (which became our divorce decree) we must provide reasonable access to the kids so long as it's coordinated between us in advance... which is what I've been doing and she just keeps denying it.

My lawyer liked my idea of writing up a schedule for 2017 and outlining the 26 dates I would like to take my daughters to dinner. Above my ex's last e-mail she actually asked for it in writing, so hard for her to then reject it. Establishes my intent to continue this time and my coordination with her on it. I know my ex will hate seeing a schedule for the entire year... she'd prefer to nit pick and reject certain weeks when she feels necessary to express her control. My lawyer said that if she rejects my legal notice (being sent to her counsel tonight) to have the date night with my daughter this Wednesday, or my outlined plan for 2017 then our next step will be mediation attempt (agreement says we must first go that route before taking legal action)... but that if it gets that far she's going to start to cooperate, likely, because everyone at a mediation table will tell her she's being unreasonable if she's putting her new husband first in her daughters lives at the expense of their relationship with me.


In response to the current custody...

Our separation agreement (December 2013; later ratified in our divorce Jan 2015) says we have joint legal custody and therefore retain joint responsibility for the care and control, and joint authority to make decisions concerning the children. The primary residence is listed as wife subject to husband having said children for liberal periods of time throughout the year as set forth by...

"Both husband and wife shall have access to children at all reasonable and seasonable times and places, as agreed upon by parties from time to time and conditioned upon reasonable advance notice of intent to exercise said rights of access and visitation... specifically husband shall have right to children every other Thursday 6pm to Sunday 6pm, and two nonconsecutive one week periods over the summer. As well as the following holiday schedule"

It continues to split things up more 50/50 based on holidays and spring/winter breaks... but she ends up with about 75% of the days in total.

It's never been an issue to this point where she's decided to just withhold them from me for 10 straight days in a row... she seems to think she has the right to do that now because the decree doesn't specifically state I get these dinner dates, although we've done them ever since our separation. My lawyer says they are established and also fall within the right to have access to children at all reasonable and seasonable times and places, agreed upon by parties from time to time with advanced notice.

I asked again about my desire to get to a 50/50 split on the physical time with the kids and she said that will be difficult but not impossible. She said we need a change of circumstances in order to revisit it and then will need to outline why it's in the girls best interest to change the current schedule to fit the new desired one. She said most often this happens when the kids get a little older (into preteen and teen years) and they start to establish a desire and voice an opinion of spending more time with one parent they may be seeing less of. This will definitely be my oldest (turning 8 soon)... she keeps asking me why she doesn't get to see me as much as mom. She has been pleading to even the time out. Her mom tells her that the judge made it this way. I've been telling her, your mother and I had an agreement until you guys were in school after which you were supposed to spend equal time between us... unfortunately your mother and I cannot see eye to eye on it now, but it's because we both love you so much and want to spend as much time with you as possible. Then I assure her I'll continue to fight to get more time with her whenever I can. I'm trying to keep her out of it, and get her to stop asking her mom on a weekly basis. She was doing that last summer, and I think it took a toll on both my daughter and her mother. My daughter wants things to be fair, she is rather mature for a 7 year old... and in a way that's good but in other ways it's sad. I don't want her to grow up too fast or take on the responsibility of this all. I struggle with how to best address this with her when it comes up, though I feel I'm handling it well.


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## Lostinthought61

I hate to use threat but i would make it very clear as well to your exww that if new hubby does not want to knwo the real truth of why you divorced her then she better get on with the program.


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## Thomas0311

Xenote said:


> I hate to use threat but i would make it very clear as well to your exww that if new hubby does not want to knwo the real truth of why you divorced her then she better get on with the program.


That's not a bad recommendation, and I've never tried that kind of tactic... I've certainly considered it, and get that devil on the shoulder at times... then recognize what my goal is. Stability for my daughters. I've seen that chaos and feeding into her victim mentality, actually engaging with her in any way as it relates to conflict is exactly what she wants. It allows her to construct her own fantasy about how wronged she is by me, the world and everything. She has no accountability for her affairs, or her decision to continue them while we were in counselling, she's never apologized for it or admitted to any wrong doing - well after we separated she did only briefly in order to try and rope me back in. The few times I let her have it early after our divorce, calling her out for what she did... she would respond with "If you only knew what I've been through, you should hear what people think" (oh please). I honestly hope she changes, grows up... but back to my goal. Stability for my daughters. So the last thing I want to do is undermine or expedite the downfall of her marriage number two... where my daughters might then be exposed to all kinds of trauma. And a new pool of people she starts to date.

That said, I don't want to be a punching bag. My hope is to establish guidelines and routine while side stepping any situations where I become an catalyst for her need to destruct her life. Her husband will most likely end up on the wrong side of her poor decisions at some point... I just hope it's in 7-10 years when my girls are old enough to be almost out and on their own.


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## Marc878

Thomas0311 said:


> Yes, you're absolutely right... my initial reaction was to wait on this until January to see if the new year improved. I didn't want it to be an issue these holidays... but now that it's been two straight months of it, I'm going to move ahead with things, legally.


These things rarely get better. You need to move forceful and fast. Let them figure it out.


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## browser

Sounds to me like mom is trying to push you out of your children's lives. I suggest you read up on parental alienation, and watch for signs she's doing that. Even if she's not actively alienating, if your time with your daughters is being limited beyond what is reasonable you need to file a petition with the courts. If your attorney is not aggressive in this regard you may need to retain one that is.


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## Uptown

Thomas0311 said:


> My ex-wife has signs of BPD.... Are there any books or support groups in dealing with this kind of stuff?


Thomas, as you've already discovered, this TAM forum has numerous active members who want to support you -- based on their own experiences with BPDer ex-partners. In my case, for example, I lived with my BPDer exW for 15 years. 

Another good source of support, to supplement your support here at TAM, is the Co-Parenting after the Split forum at BPDfamily.com. That forum consists of members, like you, who must deal with their BPDer ex-partners because they have shared custody of the children. 

I suggest that, while you are at that website, you read two BPDfamily articles: Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and Leaving a Partner with BPD. I also recommend these free online articles: Fathers Divorcing, and High Risk Parenting, and Pain of Breaking Up, and Divorcing a Narcissist. 

As to a helpful book, I suggest you take a look at *Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder*. Although your divorce is already final, that book may contain useful tips on co-parenting and legal fighting. Before purchasing it, however, be sure to read some of the "Big River" reviews by people who have read it.

Finally, please keep in mind that -- if your exW is a BPDer -- it will be IMPOSSIBLE for you to build up a store of good will that you can later draw on during the hard times. Trying to do so would be as foolish as trying to build a lasting sandcastle beside the sea. The reason is that a BPDer's perception of reality is largely dictated by the intense feeling she is experiencing AT THIS VERY MOMENT. Hence, no matter what concessions and sacrifices you make today, any appreciation your exW feels will be washed aside by the next intense feeling flooding her mind. 

I mention this because it is important that you establish firm boundaries on the co-parenting and be quick to enforce them using your attorney. Being generous or lenient likely will only reduce the contact time with your child and buy you no real concessions in the future. Again, it is impossible to build up a lasting store of good will with a BPDer.


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## Thomas0311

Marc878 said:


> These things rarely get better. You need to move forceful and fast. Let them figure it out.





browser said:


> Sounds to me like mom is trying to push you out of your children's lives. I suggest you read up on parental alienation, and watch for signs she's doing that. Even if she's not actively alienating, if your time with your daughters is being limited beyond what is reasonable you need to file a petition with the courts. If your attorney is not aggressive in this regard you may need to retain one that is.


You're absolutely right. I'm pleasantly surprised how quickly my lawyer is acting as soon as I gave her the go ahead. She's very good, and sharp. Says things straight and usually gives me an idea of how the other counsel will react, because she's dealt with them quite a bit in other cases. She recommended we still push for the date night tomorrow night that my ex-wife agreed to and then backed out of stating her husbands scheduled meeting with a colleague was on her calendar. The letter went out last night, haven't heard a response yet. I'm wondering if I should just show up at her door at 5pm and ring the bell... ready to take my daughter out. My guess is, unless her lawyer tells her she has to, she's going to try to prevent it in any way she can. Just more evidence to pile up against her.


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## Thomas0311

Uptown said:


> Thomas, as you've already discovered, this TAM forum has numerous active members who want to support you


Wow, thank you so much for this all of this information and resources! 




Uptown said:


> Finally, please keep in mind that -- if your exW is a BPDer -- it will be IMPOSSIBLE for you to build up a store of good will that you can later draw on during the hard times. Trying to do so would be as foolish as trying to build a lasting sandcastle beside the sea. The reason is that a BPDer's perception of reality is largely dictated by the intense feeling she is experiencing AT THIS VERY MOMENT. Hence, no matter what concessions and sacrifices you make today, any appreciation your exW feels will be washed aside by the next intense feeling flooding her mind.
> 
> I mention this because it is important that you establish firm boundaries on the co-parenting and be quick to enforce them using your attorney. Being generous or lenient likely will only reduce the contact time with your child and buy you no real concessions in the future. Again, it is impossible to build up a lasting store of good will with a BPDer.


This is exactly what I've been dealing with. I wish I had this knowledge earlier on in the processes, because I've been seesawing on this never ending chaos with her. Advice and conventional wisdom in how to co-parent and deal with divorce and children all points to working together... giving and taking. Accepting that both sides need to give and sometimes you have to be first. I've been completely taken advantage of by her because of this. I described it to my friend as... it's like I become anxious every time things are going well or she's nice. At random moments during those times she'll surprise you in the most nasty ways. I could never tell if it was something in her own environment that tipped her, or if she just needs the chaos... but she always is at her worst when I'm being cooperative and giving in in ways that I assumed would have been reciprocated. I learned the hard way to stop this cycle, the best I could, but just keeping her at arms length... not saying thank you, or that I appreciate things... to always be skeptical when she's being nice. Compassionate, yet consistently strict in my view of things. These resources will be so valuable, and enlightening... I'll check them out!


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## Thomas0311

What is the advice on how to tell your children, and at what ages, why you're divorced. My older daughter is very inquisitive, her mind works a lot like mine. She's always trying to get to the bottom of stuff, and she's sensitive but curious about why and how. She's a bit mature for her age (turning 8 soon) and she tends to piece things together very well through deductive reasoning. She's aware of how her mother is... she shells off at the other home, and she's voiced being frustrated at times at how her mom says one thing but does another. She's being taught to act and appear a certain way but to hide what she really thinks about situations. With me, she opens up, because we explore the world together. I love hearing her thoughts on stuff and answering everything she wants to know truthfully. In this I've provided a safe environment for her to be herself, and it shows in our relationship. I make a point to tell her I'll always tell her the truth, and that she can ask anything.

At times she's asked about why we are no longer married in round about ways, but she uses language that her mother feeds her. One time it really got to me, about a year ago, when she said "mom drove by the old house and said she really misses it... she said we had to sell it because you left. Is she lieing?" I told her "your mother feels a need to make excuses for why we divorced; it had nothing to do with you or your sister... She broke a very important promise that people make when they get married... That is why it's so important that I teach you to be honest with people, especially those that you love." My daughter then asked "what promise did she break?"... I said "well, when you're married someday you'll have a husband and he will put you first in his life, and you'll do the same for him. You should be the top priority in one another lives. Your mom decided to put another man ahead of daddy. She was breaking that rule of marriage. I gave her a second chance to stop putting someone else ahead of me, but after many months she said she couldn't ... so because of that she chose to no longer be married."

I didn't know if that was too much... I was upset at the vision of my ex (I could see her doing this) driving by our old house, which is in the back of a neighborhood so no reason this would be random... just to create a moment of emotional turmoil for her daughters as she expresses how sad she was that we no longer live in that house. It's sickening.


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## Rowan

Thomas0311 said:


> At times she's asked about why we are no longer married in round about ways, but she uses language that her mother feeds her. One time it really got to me, about a year ago, when she said "mom drove by the old house and said she really misses it... she said we had to sell it because you left. Is she lieing?" I told her "your mother feels a need to make excuses for why we divorced; it had nothing to do with you or your sister... *She broke a very important promise that people make when they get married... That is why it's so important that I teach you to be honest with people, especially those that you love." My daughter then asked "what promise did she break?"... I said "well, when you're married someday you'll have a husband and he will put you first in his life, and you'll do the same for him. You should be the top priority in one another lives. Your mom decided to put another man ahead of daddy. She was breaking that rule of marriage. I gave her a second chance to stop putting someone else ahead of me, but after many months she said she couldn't ... so because of that she chose to no longer be married."*
> 
> I didn't know if that was too much... I was upset at the vision of my ex (I could see her doing this) driving by our old house, which is in the back of a neighborhood so no reason this would be random... just to create a moment of emotional turmoil for her daughters as she expresses how sad she was that we no longer live in that house. It's sickening.



The bold is pretty similar to what we told our son when my ex-husband and I divorced. Some variation of the following: "Married people aren't supposed to have other boyfriends or girlfriends. Daddy decided he wanted to keep having girlfriends. I wasn't okay with that, so we decided to get divorced." 

My friend, who is a marriage and family therapist, explained our divorce to her own children (our families have always been close) in a very similar way. "Mr. Rowan had a girlfriend. That's not okay to do when you're married, but he didn't want to stop. So Mrs. Rowan didn't think they could be married anymore."

Simple, honest, not too much information, fairly neutral in tone (not hostile or accusatory) and understandable for kids their age. The kids can, and may eventually, ask for further details later. I think it's fine to give them factual information, but keep it basic and neutral, and avoid anger or alienating the other parent. Basically, don't add drama and don't overshare. I think you did fine.


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## MJJEAN

Regarding your custody agreement, I think your lawyer dropped the ball. The agreement was signed when exW was behaving herself and not restricting access. NEVER assume that status quo will remain status quo. The first thing I learned when divorcing was that it is absolutely necessary to get specific when it comes to financials and child access just in case the other party changes their mind. The more specific you are, the less she can tamper with your parenting time without legal consequences. Vague language largely open to individual interpretation makes enforcement difficult. 

For example, my friends agreement states the standard weekend visits (Fri 6pm- Sun 8pm). It also includes 1 phone call per night between 8-9 pm and 1 weekday evening (Wednesdays) between 4pm-8pm. This guarantees him a certain amount of interaction with his kids regardless of his ex's mood. If she violates the order, it's a clear violation. When using language like "reasonable" there is no clear violation because "reasonable" is a vague term open to interpretation. She can always claim she thought she was being reasonable.


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## Thomas0311

MJJEAN said:


> Regarding your custody agreement, I think your lawyer dropped the ball. The agreement was signed when exW was behaving herself and not restricting access. NEVER assume that status quo will remain status quo. The first thing I learned when divorcing was that it is absolutely necessary to get specific when it comes to financials and child access just in case the other party changes their mind. The more specific you are, the less she can tamper with your parenting time without legal consequences. Vague language largely open to individual interpretation makes enforcement difficult.
> 
> For example, my friends agreement states the standard weekend visits (Fri 6pm- Sun 8pm). It also includes 1 phone call per night between 8-9 pm and 1 weekday evening (Wednesdays) between 4pm-8pm. This guarantees him a certain amount of interaction with his kids regardless of his ex's mood. If she violates the order, it's a clear violation. When using language like "reasonable" there is no clear violation because "reasonable" is a vague term open to interpretation. She can always claim she thought she was being reasonable.


I agree that life would be easier if things were more defined, however I think I won't have much trouble showing she's being "unreasonable"... our e-mails trails for the last 6 weeks have been me saying "hey, as we discussed Thursday works for a dinner date. I'll come pick her up at 5." and then she replies with "I'm sorry, but I checked my calendar and we are busy that evening, lets revisit this in January after the holiday season is over." to which I reply with "I'm also available days X, Y and Z... let me know what day works for you and I'll come get her at 5." to which she replies with "don't use my new marriage against me, I have a right to build a relationship with my daughters and their new step father. I'm sorry you'll have to wait till January to send another request." to which I reply "It seems unreasonable to say every date between now and January is tied up. I would think fostering a healthy and continuing relationship between your daughters and their father is a priority to you. Am I confused about anything here, how can we remedy this?" which at that point she just ignores my e-mail until the next cycle. This has gone on since early November. My lawyer said she's clearly being unreasonable. Our documents state that we must mediate before court action... so I'm guessing at a mediation table, she's going to have a difficult time explaining how she's not being unreasonable here. Am I wrong?


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## MJJEAN

Thomas0311 said:


> I agree that life would be easier if things were more defined, however I think I won't have much trouble showing she's being "unreasonable"... our e-mails trails for the last 6 weeks have been me saying "hey, as we discussed Thursday works for a dinner date. I'll come pick her up at 5." and then she replies with "I'm sorry, but I checked my calendar and we are busy that evening, lets revisit this in January after the holiday season is over." to which I reply with "I'm also available days X, Y and Z... let me know what day works for you and I'll come get her at 5." to which she replies with "don't use my new marriage against me, I have a right to build a relationship with my daughters and their new step father. I'm sorry you'll have to wait till January to send another request." to which I reply "It seems unreasonable to say every date between now and January is tied up. I would think fostering a healthy and continuing relationship between your daughters and their father is a priority to you. Am I confused about anything here, how can we remedy this?" which at that point she just ignores my e-mail until the next cycle. This has gone on since early November. My lawyer said she's clearly being unreasonable. Our documents state that we must mediate before court action... so I'm guessing at a mediation table, she's going to have a difficult time explaining how she's not being unreasonable here. Am I wrong?


Do I think she is being unreasonable? Yes. She could simply let your daughter come with you for her Daddy Date while she and her H go to their planned outing with his colleague. She could reschedule for you. She could do a lot of things, but she's not.

Will a mediator see it as unreasonable? Will the judge? That largely depends on their individual world views, their mood that day, and a host of other factors. Just like the rest of us, lawyers, mediators, and judges are human. That is why being specific is so crucial.

ETA: If you want my gut assessment, I think she has been in the victim chair with her new H and social circle. You were a bad husband and father. I'd bet $$ she's telling them all that you were neglectful, if not abusive at least mentally and emotionally. You're not fit to be around the kids, blah blah blah. You being an active and involved father might cause people to suspect the truth and she can't have that, so... Trust me, get specifics in black and white signed by a judge. This will NOT get better.


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## Thomas0311

MJJEAN said:


> Do I think she is being unreasonable? Yes. She could simply let your daughter come with you for her Daddy Date while she and her H go to their planned outing with his colleague. She could reschedule for you. She could do a lot of things, but she's not.
> 
> Will a mediator see it as unreasonable? Will the judge? That largely depends on their individual world views, their mood that day, and a host of other factors. Just like the rest of us, lawyers, mediators, and judges are human. That is why being specific is so crucial.
> 
> ETA: If you want my gut assessment, I think she has been in the victim chair with her new H and social circle. You were a bad husband and father. I'd bet $$ she's telling them all that you were neglectful, if not abusive at least mentally and emotionally. You're not fit to be around the kids, blah blah blah. You being an active and involved father might cause people to suspect the truth and she can't have that, so... Trust me, get specifics in black and white signed by a judge. This will NOT get better.


Your edit is a fear, and gut feeling, I have as well. I think it's why the new husband has noticeably removed himself from interacting with me, and why the e-mails (tone and language) now appears to be his, and not hers. She's not very intelligent, but he's much more strategic in how he operates... he may be buying into her victim mentality and (in his own way of feeling like he's helping) he's assisting her in undermining my ability to co-parent and be involved in my daughters lives. He may actually be much more dangerous than her, in this role... because of his history with his own son and past experience from legal encounters with his ex who he described as crazy and absent from his sons life. 

My ex-wife did show signs of making up excuses for her affairs, she claimed two of them raped her, but that didn't make any sense because the facts show that she slept with one of the guys twice and took my daughter to meet him (when her mother couldn't babysit) one time after her alleged rape from him happened (no one would take their 1 year old daughter to meet a man who raped them... right?). She also claimed to be raped by her father, and ex boyfriend in college in the middle of our discussions right at the end about her affairs. She was using these to deflect from her own guilt... I guess. At the time I took her seriously, it seems cold to ever consider someone may be fabricating abuse, but now I think that is most likely what she was doing. I don't doubt she would do the same in regards to me and our relationship. As another point to this, I told her post divorce that if I ever became aware that her biological father was left alone with my daughters that I would report it to social services (with my understanding that she said he had raped her as a child)... her reaction to being told this was to go visit him the following weekend (he lived two hours away) and make sure to tell the girls to tell me they saw him "but were never alone with him"

Question. Did I make a wrong move in not laying out why we divorced to the new father? It's now five months into their marriage... would my situation and relationship with my daughters benefit from him knowing the details? I have a write-up that is very logical, posted to a forum years ago, that outlines exactly what I encountered, uncovered and saw, as it was occurring. The reason I've never sent this to him is that putting myself in his shoes... he's going to think A)I'm making this all up, and B) he's not going to want to believe any of it... this is his new wife.


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## MJJEAN

Your exW seems like a chronic liar as well as serial cheater. Considering her H's experience with his former spouse and your exW's tendencies to lie and play the victim, imagine what she may have told him about you that he believes! Of course he thinks he's helping her and the kids by interfering. You're the bad guy, remember?

Yes, I think you were wrong not to reveal the truth to him when you first met. Too late now, though, because you are right that he would think you were making it all up and he wouldn't believe such things of his poor, sweet, oft mistreated, wife.


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## Thomas0311

MJJEAN said:


> Your exW seems like a chronic liar as well as serial cheater. Considering her H's experience with his former spouse and your exW's tendencies to lie and play the victim, imagine what she may have told him about you that he believes! Of course he thinks he's helping her and the kids by interfering. You're the bad guy, remember?
> 
> Yes, I think you were wrong not to reveal the truth to him when you first met. Too late now, though, because you are right that he would think you were making it all up and he wouldn't believe such things of his poor, sweet, oft mistreated, wife.


As a nuclear option I have her confession to the affairs on a recording (legal in my state to record one on one conversations with another party... something my lawyer recommended I do once I decided to separate). I was stupid not to use this in our divorce proceedings, but at the time I was looking to make things as easy as possible so as not to drag my daughters through an ugly contested divorce. Evidence to more of my concessions and being taken advantage of (I paid her spousal support for 2.5 years, thinking it would benefit my daughters and buy be favors... what a mistake - coincidentally she got married the month the payments stopped). Her own words (21 minute audio) surely couldn't be considered made up, but I wouldn't put it past her to try to say they were. In it I got her to remind me her social security number (for paperwork I was filling out on insurance). She admits to two of the affairs, and describes in detail her account of them (including physical encounters in detail), while she was thinking I was considering staying so long as she comes clean with everything. She suspects I have this audio, but doesn't know for sure. I've kept that private.


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## Cynthia

You can only co-parent with someone who want to co-parent with you. She obviously doesn't want to do that.

When you go to mediation, it would be good to have the paperwork state specifics about when you have the girls, rather than at her whim. I also don't see why you can't at least try for more time with the girls. It can't hurt.

Her husband obviously sees himself as her protector. If you tell him anything negative about her, he's going to defend her and become even more hostile towards you. Do not say a word about what she's really like or your past with her. That ship has sailed.


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## MJJEAN

I'd keep that recording private still. A scared and cornered animal will viciously attack. Go with modifying visitation to include specifics. If that fails, then consider the nuclear option.


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## turnera

Thomas0311 said:


> What is the advice on how to tell your children, and at what ages, why you're divorced. My older daughter is very inquisitive, her mind works a lot like mine. She's always trying to get to the bottom of stuff, and she's sensitive but curious about why and how. She's a bit mature for her age (turning 8 soon) and she tends to piece things together very well through deductive reasoning. She's aware of how her mother is... she shells off at the other home, and she's voiced being frustrated at times at how her mom says one thing but does another. She's being taught to act and appear a certain way but to hide what she really thinks about situations. With me, she opens up, because we explore the world together. I love hearing her thoughts on stuff and answering everything she wants to know truthfully. In this I've provided a safe environment for her to be herself, and it shows in our relationship. I make a point to tell her I'll always tell her the truth, and that she can ask anything.
> 
> At times she's asked about why we are no longer married in round about ways, but she uses language that her mother feeds her. One time it really got to me, about a year ago, when she said "mom drove by the old house and said she really misses it... she said we had to sell it because you left. Is she lieing?" I told her "your mother feels a need to make excuses for why we divorced; it had nothing to do with you or your sister... She broke a very important promise that people make when they get married... That is why it's so important that I teach you to be honest with people, especially those that you love." My daughter then asked "what promise did she break?"... I said "well, when you're married someday you'll have a husband and he will put you first in his life, and you'll do the same for him. You should be the top priority in one another lives. Your mom decided to put another man ahead of daddy. She was breaking that rule of marriage. I gave her a second chance to stop putting someone else ahead of me, but after many months she said she couldn't ... so because of that she chose to no longer be married."
> 
> I didn't know if that was too much... I was upset at the vision of my ex (I could see her doing this) driving by our old house, which is in the back of a neighborhood so no reason this would be random... just to create a moment of emotional turmoil for her daughters as she expresses how sad she was that we no longer live in that house. It's sickening.


You did fine telling her that. 

My H is kind of...off from normal, so things got confusing for our daughter many times. To make up for it, I spent a lot of time helping her to see that every person is different and have different issues from their own life that causes them to react differently. So when he does something that seems odd or hurtful, to remember it has nothing to do with her, it's just him doing his own reacting. It helped her still love him and also understand him better; most importantly, it helped her keep loving herself and not compromise herself to deal with him. She's now getting a PhD in psychological research, lol.


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## Thomas0311

Update on the Date Night issue...

My lawyer sent her counsel a letter Tuesday outlining my concern about how this established time has effectively been cut in half since her re-marriage, it also outlined how she is using her husbands calendar and colleagues as an excuse in saying the girls are unavailable to have dinner with me. The letter asked her to reconsider our previously agreed upon Wednesday (yesterday) dinner and mentioned that if we we cannot find a solution to work together on maintaining these Date Nights moving forward that I would have to enact the mediation clause in our PSA.

Her lawyer responded to mine that his client was repeatedly informed me that she has been open to discussing January date requests.

My ex-wife sent me a letter yesterday saying that she did not appreciate me getting our daughters hopes up in asking her in person for a dinner date (which she agreed to but later backed down from) and then said her solution to make things better was to insist that from now on I send all requests for dinner dates in writing. She followed up at the end with a statement about how I should keep in mind that spring activities will create hardship on us all as we try to maximize our time with the girls.

She's setting the stage to use spring sports as an excuse. The irony in this is that she started working recently and her mother is babysitting/watching the girls about 10 hours a week. I've asked her about picking up the girls from school and spending that time with them and she insists that her mother only does this occasionally and that it's not a routine thing. She's trying to hide the fact that she's now working, because she wants it to appear that she's at home with the girls more than she is. When we negotiated this years daycare schedule for our 5 year old my only request was that she only be in half day on Fridays that she is with me... but she went far and above out of her way to make that not possible. Signing stuff at the school without my knowledge and coordinating schedules with teachers while leaving me in the dark... she is threatened by any time I spend with my daughters. I suspect this is because she observes the great relationship I have with them and feels threatened by it?

Anyway... my response to her e-mail yesterday was to send the following:


> Date Night Schedule 2017
> 
> [ex-wife],
> 
> I have acted to maintain our established Date Night schedule, where for the last three years I have taken one of our daughters to dinner each 10-day period they are with you. Coordinating both verbally and in writing I've been flexible, providing multiple date options. Though with a recent increase in the rejection of said requests, the frequency of Date Nights has effectively been cut in half.
> 
> In order to remedy this, create cohesion, and preserve this healthy activity which we've agreed is important to prioritize in the girls lives, here is the Date Night schedule for 2017 (4:30pm - 7:30pm).
> 
> [daughter 1]
> 1) January 20th 2017
> 2) February 16th 2017
> 3) March 16th 2017
> 4) April 12th 2017
> 5) May 11th 2017
> 6) June 8th 2017
> 7) July 6th 2017
> 8) August 3rd 2017
> 9) August 31st 2017
> 10) September 28th 2017
> 11) October 26th 2017
> 12) December 7th 2017
> 
> [daughter 2]
> 1) February 2nd 2017
> 2) March 2nd 2017
> 3) March 29th 2017
> 4) April 27th 2017
> 5) May 25th 2017
> 6) June 22nd 2017
> 7) July 21st 2017
> 8) August 17th 2017
> 9) September 14th 2017
> 10) October 13th 2017
> 11) November 9th 2017
> 12) December 21st 2017
> 
> When a conflicts arise with one of the dates, we should communicate at least two weeks prior. This communication in advance allows us to discuss alternate dates with the focus being on continuing this valuable tradition for our daughters benefit.
> 
> No response is necessary if you concur with this and I will pickup DD on the 20th of January at 4:30pm at your house for our first "Date Night" of 2017 and drop her off at your house at 7:30pm. As we've arranged in the past, please send any homework along with them (on busy nights)... we have had fun working on it together during our dinner dates. I am excited about getting this important activity with our daughters back on track and appreciate your support.


I think she's kind of cornered herself on this... by asking for everything to be in writing. I'm curious to hear her response to this, which I'm guessing will be a rejection of it, in one form or another.


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## samyeagar

MJJEAN said:


> Your exW seems like a chronic liar as well as serial cheater. Considering her H's experience with his former spouse and your exW's tendencies to lie and play the victim, imagine what she may have told him about you that he believes! Of course he thinks he's helping her and the kids by interfering. You're the bad guy, remember?
> 
> Yes, I think you were wrong not to reveal the truth to him when you first met. Too late now, though, because you are right that he would think you were making it all up and he wouldn't believe such things of his poor, sweet, oft mistreated, wife.


The flip side to this is everyone knows that when an ex comes forward with a warning, that it is never fully believed, especially when it is a horrible monster of an ex...perfect setup that because that way if the ex actually does come forward with a warning...it is just confirming that they are a lying, horrible jealous, whatever else ex that they were portrayed as. Add in the natural human psychology that we tend not to want to admit that we made a bad choice, and it is almost self preservation to believe what the partner says about their ex, rather than have to admit that it is the chosen partner with the problem.


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## Cynthia

These date nights with your daughters are of extreme importance to their well-being. This isn't about you or your ex. This is about the emotional and even physical health of your girls. Please have a written agreement of when and how these are going to occur, legally drawn up, and signed by both of you.


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## Bananapeel

Thomas, I don't know what your financial situation is compared to your XW's but if you can afford the legal costs more than she can then it might behoove you to just go mediation/court so that she learns that fighting you over these issues is going to cost her money. Once that sinks in she can decide whether the hassle of giving you what you want is worth more than the money it is going to cost her to fight it.


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## Thomas0311

Bananapeel said:


> Thomas, I don't know what your financial situation is compared to your XW's but if you can afford the legal costs more than she can then it might behoove you to just go mediation/court so that she learns that fighting you over these issues is going to cost her money. Once that sinks in she can decide whether the hassle of giving you what you want is worth more than the money it is going to cost her to fight it.


I think this may be an effective tactic, and it is my goal to get this to mediation - I think that even if my lawyers letter scares her this time, she'll slowly work into the same patterns again and again. I have a lot of disposable income and no debt. Living well below my means at the moment. In all other things I pay 85%... but with mediation she selects three options and I get to choose from them. We split the cost 50/50 and must mediate at least 4 hours as long as someone doesn't feel resolved... that could certainly be more of a pain for her financially.


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## Thomas0311

CynthiaDe said:


> These date nights with your daughters are of extreme importance to their well-being. This isn't about you or your ex. This is about the emotional and even physical health of your girls. Please have a written agreement of when and how these are going to occur, legally drawn up, and signed by both of you.


You are absolutely correct. I have enjoyed this time more than anything else. When I get that alone time they really open up about their world, I get to hear all the fun in their lives, how school is going, what they think about. It's also individualized so they feel overjoyed to have my attention 100% devoted to them. When I have them together, they tend to compete with each other (typical siblings stuff) for my attention and often it's difficult to really get my youngest to open up because her sister is extremely talkative, outgoing, and inquisitive. Bossy, even. But in a very good way... for a girl.  I'm much more able to promote their self esteem and independence when talking to them individually. My youngest is much more talkative and outgoing when I have her one on one. Gets hyper even... it's so cute.


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## MJJEAN

You mentioned asking for extra parenting time when your ex is working and your daughter spends time in daycare or at Grandma's. In my state it's common for parents to ask for "first refusal"in their custody agreements. What that means is your ex has to ask if you can take the kid(s) and only arranges a sitter if you cannot and vice versa. Might want to ask your lawyer about including a "first refusal" clause.

Caution: Some daycare centers require a certain number of hours/days per week or the kid loses their slot. In that case, you wouldn't want to be too much of a stickler if that extra half day makes the difference between quality reliable daycare and not.


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## Thomas0311

Found mention of that in our PSA...

"In the event that either party will require overnight care from a third party (not including a relative related by blood or marriage) for the children while in his or her physical custody, then the other parent shall be offered the right of first refusal to provide custodial care for the children conditioned upon such other parent being available for such purpose. Compliance with this provision requires prompt communication between the parties."

So unfortunately her mother or husband wouldn't qualify.


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## MJJEAN

Thomas0311 said:


> Found mention of that in our PSA...
> 
> "In the event that either party will require overnight care from a third party (not including a relative related by blood or marriage) for the children while in his or her physical custody, then the other parent shall be offered the right of first refusal to provide custodial care for the children conditioned upon such other parent being available for such purpose. Compliance with this provision requires prompt communication between the parties."
> 
> So unfortunately her mother or husband wouldn't qualify.


So change the language if you're revisiting the legal agreement anyways. This "first refusal clause" seems to be only for overnights and allows for a 3rd party related by blood or marriage to babysit. The first refusal clauses I typically see are "first refusal", period. Day, night, degree of relation, none of that matters. If Parent A cannot mind the child(ren), Parent B gets first refusal. End of.


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## fall222

No need to speak to her about it anymore. Just go back to court get ordered the time you want and advise ex you will not forgo any time with your kids. 

As far as what she does and with who on her time you have no say in that. 

Yep they are trying to get rid of you. But I wouldn't worry too much. He law protects both parents equally unless you can prove one parent is unfit which is very hard to prove. Back to court you go!!


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## Thomas0311

Our PSA requires 4-hours of mediation prior to court in any dispute related to custody... but essentially that's just a step towards court (because if we don't agree then after mediation it is probably clear if one side isn't being reasonable). Every time I've stated mediation needs to take place, she's cooperated. I'll just need to bring that up more, and sooner... in these issues.


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## Thomas0311

My older daughter (7 year old, almost 8) is a very logical minded kid, and she is all about fairness and doing the right thing. Earlier this year she started telling me about situations where her mother had lied to her... often involving me, but sometimes just the interaction between them. 

One example:
DD: "Can I take toy X to Mom's this weekend!"
Me: "Nah, remember our rule, you need to bring back toy Y first"
DD: "It's lost, Mom says I lost it."
Me: "Where did you see it last?"
DD: "I had it in bed when I went to sleep, but when I woke up it wasn't there anymore."
Me: "Did you check on the floor, or around the bed."
DD: "Yes, I looked everywhere."
Me: "Well sometimes things get misplaced... that's ok. I'll tell you what, check again this weekend as hard as you can, and if it's still missing we'll just call it an accident. Then you can take toy X next week as long as this doesn't become a habit."
DD: "I think Mom is hiding them."
Me: "Why do you think that?"
DD: "She does that with our toys when she doesn't like something we've done."
Me: "So your toys go to time out to teach you?"
DD: "No, she always says we lost them, but really I know she took them."
Me: "I think she's trying to get you to address a concern about something else. What do you think that is?"
DD: "Yeah, but it's not fair... because she's lying."
Me: "Well, yeah... I suppose. 
DD: "I'm pretty sure she has toy Y, and she's making me look for it even though she has it."
Me: "Well lets ask her when I drop you off."
DD: "She'll just lie to you about it, she'll say it was my fault..."

So a conversation like this is pretty standard with my daughter... she's very insightful. I've become aware the last year that she's vented about her mothers actions that she doesn't understand... particularly the lying. Some of this can actually be turned into a good lesson of life just isn't fair sometimes and people don't always act as you expect, but you can find what motivates them and learn methods to accomplish your goal to make both you and them happy. She's too young for a lot of that though. I started to question myself... to make sure I'm not promoting this. Really, as I see it, this boils down to a personality clash... my daughter is wired a lot differently than her mother. She's just naturally a tune to a more structured, fair and on the surface way of doing things (which is actually a lot like me)... I think some of that is taught, but the majority seems to be hard wired. Her younger sister is so opposite... she's rather please people, and will fudge the truth to accomplish that goal. This daughters however, was never like that, fairness and bunt was always her way.

I suspect her mother is frustrated that she is more like me... and I think her mother is playing games with her in order to punish (teach, in her mind) her and try to get her to follow her not to cut and dry, or clear, set of rules.

Anyways, I'm digressing... the point here is. I had a conversation with my daughter not long ago telling her that calling her mother a liar isn't a good thing, but that she should rather get to the bottom of what is motivating her mother to act as she is. I thought about this later and wondered... I don't want to invalidate my daughters observations and feelings. I also don't want to be a platform to promote her growing up resenting her mother. Some earlier also mentioned the possibility that the kids are learning to play us against each other... I tend to think of this daughter as always being truthful. Her and I just sort of have that understanding of always being honest with one another (which is why she points so harshly to the lying). I try not to engage in the confirmation of lies (such as the "well yeah, I suppose" comment above) because I don't want her to start to excuse things that she can find work arounds for. 

In this case it may very well be that her mother is jealous she's enjoying a toy from my house (that behavior fits with her past)... but it could also be that my daughter really lost the toy and because of her observations of he's mom behavior jumps to the conclusion that mom is hiding them. It's easy to blame her, to me...

How does one find a middle ground with this? Any advice?


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## Bananapeel

Thomas0311 said:


> Our PSA requires 4-hours of mediation prior to court in any dispute related to custody... but essentially that's just a step towards court (because if we don't agree then after mediation it is probably clear if one side isn't being reasonable). Every time I've stated mediation needs to take place, she's cooperated. I'll just need to bring that up more, and sooner... in these issues.


Since you are in a somewhat hostile situation it will do better to just go ahead and tell your attorney to schedule mediation now so that your XW knows you are serious and she actually has real financial consequences for her actions. Then don't talk with her about resolving this outside of mediation (she'll try) and force the mediation to happen. It's OK to discuss this with your attorney and let them know that you are planning on forcing mediation as a preventative for future disputes and then your attorney will get the ball rolling.


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## Thomas0311

She replied to the note above negatively... stating that her new families life is too dynamic with too many unknowns upcoming on their calendars to commit to the entire year. Then said now that she knows my preferred dates, she'll do her best to accommodate but that I need to understand and be respectful of her relationship with her daughters and her time with them. She then talked about spring sports becoming a potential issue and said she's moved their bedtime forward to leave more time in the mornings, so she wants to reduce the dinner dates from 3 hours down to less. She said beginning of each month she'd let me know if the date I provided would work, and if not she'd allow me to ask for alternatives... ugh... I've been giving her 15 date nights options for the last two months, all of which has been rejected.

Forwarded this to my lawyer and said I'd prefer not to give her the opportunity to back pedal by arguing with her on this. I'd rather get the facts in front of a judge to show that her words don't match her actions... in that she's been actively working to undermine these date nights.

What's more, my daughters have been asking more and more about why these date nights keep getting cancelled. I have stayed as neutral as possible with them telling them their mother and I are working on a solution to why they keep getting pushed off. My older daughter then told me her mother asked her to keep a secret about them... she continued to say that her mother made up a conflict last Wednesday (dinner with a friend) and that friend never came to dinner, followed with "mom always lies, how can get away with this?" *When I asked her why that's a secret... she told me that her mother doesn't want me to know when she lies, and asked her daughter to keep it from me. What is so odd (yet fits everything I saw with this woman when married to her) is that she does so well at seeming proper on the outside. She projects working with people and compromising, but when it comes to actions she takes advantage of people and situations for her own gain. Her daughters are given a window into this world (because as she grew up her own mother did the same to her). My daughters are both becoming increasingly upset about this, as they compare the honesty issues between their mother and me. 

It's a difficult place to walk, keeping them out of this, while they also get wrapped up in it when their mother says ok to dates, only to later reject them for made up reasons (and then letting her own daughters know it's a game she's playing). er actual goal in this is for me to uncover enough of it to ask, fight or lash out at her over her selfish actions... in order to feed her personality disorder issues. It's difficult, because it's next to impossible to co-parent with someone like this. Any compromise made is then the new norm and slowly worked to get even more in the future. There is no such thing as building up good will... as I've done since her re-marriage in being more lienient to the date night times... which she's now trying to state are an accomodation on her behalf... and not what it really is (and important thin for her daughters development).

I hope I have enough now to take this to court.


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## Cynthia

It's a manipulation game with her and she is deliberately teaching it to your daughters. Get legal involved and put an end to her ability to interfer with your time with the girls. Perhaps it would be easier if you kept the girls overnight rather than only for three hours on date night. That is less disruptive to her schedule. Not that you should or do care about her schedule, but two can play the manipulation game and you can turn it back on her. Further, it would be easier for the girls since you would be able to continue with homework or whatever until a normal bedtime.

Speaking of bedtime, don't both households have the same bedtime schedule for the girls? Did she just make a major change in their routines without consulting you?

You are right that coparenting is not an option. She has set this up to be an adversarial situation and the only thing you can realistically do about it is to have this arranged legally, so she has no options, but to follow the parenting plan that is no longer flexible. She may have a problem with the lack of flexibility, but that is her own doing. She took advantage of your flexibility and used it again you and the girls. Now it's time to for you to push back and make this right. You're on the right path.


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## turnera

This will be the most important time in your life to spend money on legal actions, so don't hesitate to do so. 

Re: the girls, when they tell you something like this, don't talk about how you feel about it, but do talk to them about how it makes them feel. Help them work through their feelings on it and how they would like to be treated and how they'd like to act personally. They'll figure it all out, and see that you're not playing such games.


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## Thomas0311

More of the same...

Me:


> Little Pearls Dentistry just informed me that you called them a couple weeks ago and rescheduled appointments for the girls to be... Why did you not inform me of the change?


Her:


> Because the 16th doesn't work for me. I made the appointment without my calendar and we are busy. It will be changed again.


Me:


> Just so I understand, two weeks ago you changed a medical appointment for our daughter -- [DD5, due to her advanced heart condition, and blood disease medication, needs special medication during her dental appointments; it's anything but routine]. You decided not to inform me of this during or soon after, because your intent was to change it again. All this time has passed, without consulting me or asking what dates work for us both? I have asked numerous times (seven now, I believe) for you to coordinate and consult with me while scheduling appointments but you continue to neglect this responsibility. Can you please explain your reasoning behind this behavior?


Her:


> To state that I continually make appointments without your knowledge is a lie and hypocritical. Less than three hours ago you changed a critical medical appointment - cardiology - that was made months ago without "consulting" me or "coordinating with me" prior to you rescheduling said appointment. You can't have it both ways.
> 
> I will let you know when the girls' new routine dental cleaning date has been set.


The humor in this deflection, the cardiology appointment she says I changed three hours ago... she knows about it, because we had just discussed it

Me:


> You say you want to work together, but your actions don't align with that sentiment. So I have to ask questions, to protect the girls, in my legal right to be involved in important decisions in their lives. Calling me a hypocrite is not helpful and only works to cause tension, rather than fostering a productive environment in how to better communicate about the girls medical appointments.
> 
> When you take actions to exclude me from planning processes, including the scheduling of appointments -- many of which have had to be rescheduled because you didn't check with me during or immediately after scheduling them -- it shows a negligence towards my equal legal right to be involved in major decisions involving the girls You admit, below, that it is unproductive to set appointments without us coming together to make sure the time fits our calendars. Yet, when given ample time to decide you pick a date and later tell me (sometimes not at all). Why? I'm sorry, but your calendar doesn't take priority over my legal right to be involved in the planning and attendance of appointments for the girls.
> 
> I suggested a while ago setting up an online calendar for the girls that you and I have access to, as a place to put all of these appointments, events and activities for the girls. Maybe that would help alleviate some of these issues. Thoughts?


It's draining... I wish I just had legal papers to follow. Parallel parenting seems to be the best option with her. Working to accomplish that with the date nights (so we just have set schedule and don't need to coordinate weekly/monthly), unfortunately we will always have to communicate in some way about our daughter and all of her medical issues. I think most of that can be accomplished in a doctors office in front of doctors, where things tend to go much smoother.


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## Cynthia

Thomas0311 said:


> It's draining... I wish I just had legal papers to follow. Parallel parenting seems to be the best option with her. Working to accomplish that with the date nights (so we just have set schedule and don't need to coordinate weekly/monthly), unfortunately we will always have to communicate in some way about our daughter and all of her medical issues. I think most of that can be accomplished in a doctors office in front of doctors, where things tend to go much smoother.


Then stop. Handle it legally. Get it all written down properly and signed by a judge. You made these arrangements thinking you could work together, but she is making every attempt to exclude you and make you go away. There is no point in continuing to try with her. She is recognizing that you can't do anything about her behavior, so she will not improve. She will only get worse unless you do something legally to stop this behavior and get it all court ordered.


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## Thomas0311

You're right.


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## samyeagar

Thomas0311 said:


> You're right.


You are using far to many words with her. Reading back through the wall of text you and her had back and forth, exactly what progress was made?


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## Satya

I promise you, that if this comes straight from a JUDGE, she's not going to give nearly as much push back and deflection.

Get it done.

And continue to document everything.


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