# Just Leave! Why is divorce portrayed as so simple?



## Emerson (Oct 6, 2008)

I've been reading a lot of posts on this board lately and I find it very, very helpful.

The thing I'm having a really hard time with is how often people say... "then leave". As in get divorced/separated/move out, etc.

I am having problems in my relationship right now, but I don't take "just leaving" so lightly. 

I'm not writing this from a "holier than thou" viewpoint. I'm writing it as I think through my own options.

A separation/divorce is a huge deal to me and the thought of ending my marriage makes me feel like I have been "defeated". 

When I think of myself getting divorced, I think of all the negatives. I think of our children not living with both parents and being shuffled back and forth. I think of breaking everything apart financially. I think of how I will be treated by my husband's family whom I have grown close to. I think of how people who know us will act and think. I think about how I will feel if my husband dates or gets remarried. I think about all the future plans that will never come to be.

Everything about the thought of divorce just makes me feel awful. So, I'm wrestling with my own discontent now in comparison to all the factors of divorce. My thought keeps coming back to "even though I'm probably not as happy as I could be, maybe I could go on like this rather than go through a divorce". 

I guess I'm just ranting because "just leave" is an easy thing to write, but when you are faced with all the realities of what it entails, it's not such an easy answer.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Emerson

Thank you for your post. Because we live in a disposable society we have grown accustomed to not putting work into the things that challenge us and just give up. In most all of my posts I encourage people in troubled marriages to give recovery of the marriage everything they have and if it fails leave nothing in the tank. Please see “When is Enough, Enough”. At least that way if it fails both parties can say “we gave it all we had.” Divorce affects so many around us and can have a copy cat effect on others. It hurts families, children and friends. It can bring financial woes, loss of confidence, self doubt and failures into to other parts of one’s life. Bravo for your post, if more people truly thought about the true impact of divorce a lot more marriages would stand a better chance. Bless.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

If you read my posts normally my first responce is to do everything you can before divorce. Therefore in your mind you have no regrets.

There are exceptions to this. Physical, mental, sexual and emotional abuse. Plus Affairs physical or emotional that seperate people in a way they can never be heal. Also substance abuse I do not take lightly.

I grew up in a home that "didn't believe in divorce". I would have been better of in a different situation and often prayed that my parents would seperate. 

Being a part of a "whole" family isn't always better, trust me.

There are many tools out there now to help people. Marriage is being more PC. Less people are cheating because they are not "stuck" with what they have. Women no longer can be raped or beaten at will by their husbands. Volenteer someday at a violence no more shelter and see what some people stay with and go through.

They made divorce easy because of the marriage problems. They might be a different set of problems but they are less then they were and people can get out of seriously bad situations.

Sometimes people on the forums are looking for only the answer they want. Sometimes the answer is just leave. They already want only that and want support for the backbone.

You are also dealing with Members: 2,867, Active Members: 1,284 on this forum alone. That many points of view.

draconis


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## Savetherock (Aug 27, 2008)

I have to go with Draconis on this. First, I will say I am going through a divorce now with someone I love so much. But she has just lost her feelings without explanation. I fought for a while to be everything she wanted. Then I realized how that was wrong. So I started fighting for myself. She still feels the same. She loves me but its not the same in her eyes. I can't live in a love-less relationship no matter what the cost. 

When I read your post this is what I see:



Emerson said:


> A separation/divorce is a huge deal to me and the thought of ending my marriage makes me feel like I have been "defeated".


Seems like a self esteem issue. Is losing in a game you can't win defeat? If you feel you have given it all you can until you are about to lose yourself then you have not been defeated. Losing yourself for someone else is defeat. This is all more about me than you as I don't know your situation.



> When I think of myself getting divorced, I think of all the negatives. I think of our children not living with both parents and being shuffled back and forth.


Sounds like a big inconvenience. Have a lot of friends that would have rather lived in two houses then live with their parent's resentful "stay together for the kids" marriages. 



> I think of breaking everything apart financially.


Yeah, money, hate having to spend more too.



> I think of how I will be treated by my husband's family whom I have grown close to. I think of how people who know us will act and think.


There's the self esteem again. What will my friends and family think of me? What does everyone think of me. Will they judge me? Will they hate me? THEY THEY THEY. I know how that hurts. 



> I think about how I will feel if my husband dates or gets remarried.


Yeah, Jealousy and ownership are natural feelings evoked by our ego. I shiver at the thought of when I see my wife with another man. Haha, I just said MY wife.



> I think about all the future plans that will never come to be.


Oh yes, the traveling, the 2 kids, the growing old, the house in Napa, the retirement pub. I also wanted to be a Civil Engineer when I was in H.S. Now I don't.

All these are big inconveniences. But big as they may be, they wont take away who you are. Staying in a marriage when it is not good for you will. I find it funny that of all the things you mentioned why you DON'T want a divorce, you didn't say anything along the lines of "I want to be with him". Not saying you don't. But then again I don't know your situation, just this one post.

A lot of people say everyone looks at marriage a lot lighter these days. And it is very true. But, I think there are more people coming into relationships and marriage with higher expectations than the past. This isn't necessarily a great thing as my mom always told me "don't expect nothing". But there are now avenues for men and women to get out of loveless and abusive relationships unlike in the past.


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## Savetherock (Aug 27, 2008)

P.S. I'm not saying that the way I feel is how Draconis feels. Or how any one else but me should for that matter. Just that I agree with his opinions on escaping abuse, be it mental or physical.


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## Emerson (Oct 6, 2008)

Thank you for the comments. 

I agree 110% that divorce is a necessary thing in cases of physical, mental, sexual and emotional abuse as well as those relationships where neither spouse really even likes the other.

I too have a Mother and Stepfather who have almost despised each other for the last 25 years. I don't understand why they choose to be unhappy. They are both now in their 70's and have received almost no enjoyment from each other. I wish they would have divorced decades ago. I'm sure they didn't get divorced primarily because of financial reasons (they are already a my money-your money kind of couple since they both owned substantial assets before getting married). Secondarily, I know my Mom will not due to religious beliefs.

Perhaps my post stems from my own situation. I would prefer to be with another man, but my marriage is really pretty good. The problems are really pretty minor. I think I just want my marriage and the other guy. 

SavetheRock likely hit the nail on the head. I think I do have self-esteem issues which is why I enjoy the devotion/attention of my "other guy". hhmmm... something to think about more...


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

Keep in mind all the work you do for or to the other guy than that much is stolen from your marriage.

draconis


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

draconis said:


> I grew up in a home that "didn't believe in divorce". I would have been better of in a different situation and often prayed that my parents would seperate.


I did too. Bad situation. But then i was thinking about it the other day. Dont you think the assumption that things would have gone better is based on the idea that something normal would have emerged? and really, with dysfunctional parents, what are the odds that anything normal, or better, would come out of it? when i really sat down and thought about it, if anything odds are things would have gotten worse with divorce.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

ljtseng said:


> I did too. Bad situation. But then i was thinking about it the other day. Dont you think the assumption that things would have gone better is based on the idea that something normal would have emerged? and really, with dysfunctional parents, what are the odds that anything normal, or better, would come out of it? when i really sat down and thought about it, if anything odds are things would have gotten worse with divorce.


In my situation things could not have gotten worse and in fact I was kick out at 17 and lived in my car throught the winter while maintaining an A average in school and used a gym membership so I'd have a place to shower. Even that was better than living at my house.

draconis


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

following the "why do we make it so easy to divorce" thought, why don't the ones who want to separate just file then. i've been living my own personal hell of a separation, wondering almost daily "if my changes aren't adequate to get back together, why don't you just file? i don't want that, but she must.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

I think if I read it right, now in New York you have to be seperated for a year to divorce. I think that is a good idea.

draconis


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## Savetherock (Aug 27, 2008)

18 Months in NJ
6 months in CA
0 in UT


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

3 months in maine but they can make you wait additional time. In my first divorce the judge refused to divorce us for 9 months because we were so civil and polite to each other. He said in over 20 years he'd never seen a divorcing couple that nice to each other. lol.

draconis


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

drac-
ha! if me & beth were in maine, they'd make us stay together...we are having the best part of our relationship right now!


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

My ex-wife and I knew we where not going to be that happy couple but that we were friends before and with a child there was no reasons not to stay friends. At one point in the court hearing she and I let the court without the lawyers to discuss our situation. I think it was the fairest thing to do, but the judge felt it meant we had hope, since we were willing to work on stuff still. I had been awarded custody of my son and all but the stuff she came into the marriage with. I offered more because it was fair. I also declined child support too, although I don't know if I would have gotten any at all. But the judge was impressed never the less because we saw what was the best interest for all involved.

draconis


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## trying2cope (May 26, 2008)

Emerson, I completely understand your attitude and don't know if it means you have a "self-esteem" problem. To be thinking of your children and your family is only natural when you reach a crossroads in your marriage. It would be a pretty selfish attitude to think only of yourself. I think that society makes it seem so "easy" to just get a divorce. As if everyone will be better off. I read in a book (I think it was Divorce Busters)...people shouldn't stay in their marriage for the children, but they should be happy in their marriage for their children. Marriage is a commitment that I think people give up on when it's gets hard. I'm not saying that there aren't reasons to get a divorce, I just think people need to think/try a little harder before they take what they think is the easy way out.


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## Greatermindset (Oct 13, 2008)

Emerson, I think what you've shared with us has taken a lot of courage to admit certain things about your relationship. I respect and honour what you say, and I can tell you're a person who has a heart of gold that cares about their family.

I hear your cry for help. I'm a little concerned about the attention we're giving to the divource topic tho, as generally we move towards what we focus on. 

If you're willing to turn this relationship around, would you be willing to hear what myself and others may have to say? I'm sure there are plenty of people who care for the happiness for your family who would be able to help in one form or another. I've seen couples that were on the verge of divource who were able to take their relationship and turn it right around who are still very much in love till this day. It takes a certain understanding about some principles tho, one that I'm willing to share if you're willing to listen.

We'll also need more information about your relationship, so we have a better understanding. If you prefer to do this in pm, I can assist. But if you're willing to do this in public, I'm sure a lot of people will be able to relate to what you're going through and may possibly help them also turn their relationship around too.


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## Emerson (Oct 6, 2008)

Greatermindset said:


> If you're willing to turn this relationship around, would you be willing to hear what myself and others may have to say? ......... It takes a certain understanding about some principles tho, one that I'm willing to share if you're willing to listen.
> 
> We'll also need more information about your relationship, so we have a better understanding. If you prefer to do this in pm, I can assist. But if you're willing to do this in public, I'm sure a lot of people will be able to relate to what you're going through and may possibly help them also turn their relationship around too.


Please continue, I'm willing to answer publicly.


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## Greatermindset (Oct 13, 2008)

Emerson said:


> Please continue, I'm willing to answer publicly.


I applaude you for being brave and wanting to do something about your relationship. Others, feel free to give her the credit she deserves.

I want to introduce to you some basics that everyone has, regardless if they're single, married, christian, jewish, muslim, male, female, etc. These are the *6 human needs*. Once we have established this, we can build on top of it, how relationships fit into it and understand the real problems so they can be addressed.

The 6 human needs are:

1. *Certainty* - Everyone requires a sense of certainty in their life, may it be the house over their heads, the food they eat, love from a spouse, the job they have in order to function.

2. *Uncertainty / Variety* - While people need certainty to function, we also need some uncertainty to spice up our lives, to give juice to what we do.

3. *Significance* - Everyone needs to feel important at one stage or another

4. *Love and Connection* - Everyone needs to feel loved and connected with other people.

5. *Growth* - Everything either grows or it dies. In relationships, it's important we're evolving upwards and growing.

6. *Contribution* - In order to feel alive, we have to look beyond ourselves, to know we made a difference to someone else.

These 6 human needs everyone has in one form or another. Some people value certain needs over others. The first 4 human needs are needs of the personality, while the last 2 are the needs of the spirit.

When 2 or more needs are met, it becomes a habit. When 4-6 needs a met, it becomes an addiction. These needs can either move a person for better or for worse.

As a starting point, it's a good exercise to reflect how this applies to your life to help better understand how this works. In this case, lets apply it to relationships, specifically your spouse. Rate each section from 0-10. In some cases it may go negative, but let's try to stick with 0-10. 0 being absolutely nothing, while 10 is being absolutely outstanding.

I encourage you to answer this as truthful as possible. We can only move forward when we're honest to ourselves and not deluding ourselves. At times, the honest truth may not be pleasant, but it will set you free. Once we know where we are at, we can start looking at where we want to go.

If your spouse can also participate, all the better. Keep in mind, this is not a bashing session. This is about being honest enough and loving them enough to show them how you really feel. If you're hearing your spouses words and they're not great, don't take it the wrong way. Know this is your opportunity to show you love them enough to do something about it.

In your current relationship with your spouse - How much :
1. certainty do you get?
2. variety do you get?
3. significance do you feel?
4. love and connection do you have with your spouse?
5. growth do you have in this relationship?
6. contribution do you feel you giving to this relationship?

Emerson, let us know what your answers are to the exercise above. Others are encouraged to do the exercise too. You can either post up your answers publically to show your support, or keep them private. I'll continue once this exercise has been completed.


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## Emerson (Oct 6, 2008)

Thank you, Greatermindset. This is my first exposure to the 6 human needs in such a format. 


In your current relationship with your spouse - How much :

*1. certainty do you get?*

8 - I could answer 10 if it were only "house over their heads, the food they eat, the job they have". Factoring in "love from a spouse" brings my response down. I know he does love me; it's just not that apparent. Most of the time when he tells me it just seems more like a word to say, like 'good bye'.

*2. variety do you get?*

3 - It's pretty dull. In 9 years of knowing him, I have only received flowers once, one rose on our first date. If we have a "date", I'm the one that plans it. I've talked to him about this a number of times and he says, "I know" and that's all the farther it goes. Variety comes from what our children do mostly.

*3. significance do you feel?*

7 - Compliments are nearly non-existent. I never hear that I look good today, etc. One day I asked him if he likes my hair. I thought this would be an easy one for him since I get a lot of compliments from other people on my long, wavy hair and I think it's pretty too. His response when I said "Do you like my hair? Not just right now, but in general?" He said, "As compared to what?" Talk about trying to feed him a chance for a compliment and he just swats it right out of my hand!! Given all of that, I still responded highly because while he doesn't compliment or put me on a pedestal in any way whatsoever, he doesn't belittle or criticize me ever either. Even when I know I need to lose weight (and I'm working on it and seeing progress) he has never said anything to me about being overweight. Once in a while he will even say, "okay, you are pretty smart" when I find solutions to everyday problems (not the relationship kind!).

*4. love and connection do you have with your spouse?*

7 - I feel a strong friendship connection. I enjoy being around him; he does things to make the kids laugh and usually makes me laugh more. We have similar interests. I feel like if we were confronted with a difficult situation, he'd be there to hold me. I don't feel much of a passionate connection. He doesn't like to do any kind of public affection like putting his arm around me or holding my hand. Lately, one of our children was with him in his vehicle and I met him to get her. We were in a parking lot near some busy streets in the small town where we live. While I gave him a short kiss I saw him looking around to see if anyone was looking. I just said "who cares if someone sees you giving your wife a kiss!".

*5. growth do you have in this relationship?*

4 - I don't feel like our relationship is growing. I feel like we are in the parental stage of our marriage. When I've asked for more affection and "loving deeds" he says that he wants are children to feel loved and so all his affection goes to them and there's just not that much left over. I am glad that he is so loving with our children. I too want them to know everyday that their mom and dad love them. I'd just like a few minutes of his affection too. I'm very happy that he's a very involved Dad.

*6. contribution do you feel you giving to this relationship?*

I'm a little uncertain what this one is asking.


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## Greatermindset (Oct 13, 2008)

Hi Emerson,

It's good to see you do the exercise. Being your first time, there's a few things I need to clarify to ensure you and possibly others who are also doing this exercise privately to understand the 6 human needs properly.

The 6 human needs can be applied to different groups of people or select individuals. An example of this (and to keep it simple related to relationships in marriage) is a wife may score her love and connection with her family as a 6, but if we look carefully, she may only score love and connection with her husband as a 3 and a love and connection with her young children as a 9. By applying the 6 human needs to specific areas, we're able to gain a much more clearer picture.

The score for significance could be reviewed. While you may feel significance with your friends and people who compliment you on a daily basis, the score probably doesn't reflect how significant your husband makes you feel. So please review the score.

Other areas I could clarify better, are the definition of "Love AND connection". It's very important that we include love when applying this to the relationship with your spouse. While you may have connection, it's not fulfilling if there's no intimate love or passion in it. Our purpose for this exercise to help help your relationship (and others) to move towards having a intimate and passionate relationship. So just update the score to reflect this.

Contribution is an area where people may have difficulty with as it's an area in their life they don't nessecarily consider much. You doing this exercise definitely has shown you're willing to grow, and it's helping your soul to evolve. So I applaude you (and others who are participating) for that.

So to help clarify Contribution in regards to relationships with your spouse, consider the question as "How much do you contribute to the growth of your spouse in being a better husband?" This question focuses beyond yourself in what you get, and more on what you can give. When you feel like you're contributing, it helps you feel like you're making a difference and feel more alive.

So just review your answers, you don't have to do the whole thing again, just the areas that need updating, but if you want to, you're welcome to do so. 

While you're updating that, also note on the side, what score do you need to feel at least comfortable with where you want to be.

Once you've done that, I want to give you something else to do. It's for 2 reasons. The first reason is to It's to being fair to your husband, cause I'm sure he's not a totally bad person and he's great in some ways. The 2nd reason is to provide a bit of balance.

So the question I want you to ask is, *What's some things that you absolutely love about your husband?*

It might be that he works harder at work to ensure that you and the family is provided for. It may be he makes extra effort to see your parents and to please you when it's not necessarily what he wants to do during christmas.

Once the answers have been reviewed, we'll continue and how the 6 human needs effects you.


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## AZMOMOFTWO (Jun 30, 2008)

Well I agree with you, but on the other hand I think some partners put their spouse through too much. In my case, I'd had enough. I tried 110% to fix things only to find out he was having an affair. Having discovered that, I told him to leave and changed the locks. Even if I'd not discovered he was having an affair I'd had a timeframe in mind to kick him out. Its not to say I don't believe in marraige, I do. Here is my perspective. My mother talked about her teenage years and the toll her parents' marriage took on her. Her father went through a midlife, she was sure he had a girlfriend or too. My grandmother worked swing shift so he'd leave my mom at home alone and tell her not to tell her mother he went out. This went on for a long time, my grandmother took to following him. She was obsessed with figuring out what he was doing on and my grandfather really didn't care. Both started to ignore their only daughter, my mother. My mother begged her mother to leave her father, told her it wasn't fair what he was doing. Eventually they got a divorce but it was worse both still played head games with another. My grandmother was a beautiful woman, other men began to ask her out and she said no. It went on for a couple of years and my mother was the one who was hurt the most. It was that I had in mind when I decided to ask my husband to leave. 

Now in our case, my husband realized he lost everything he wanted and we have reconciled. But even he said he had to lose it all to realize just how much he had. He's working hard to repair it and I do believe in second chances. 

In case you wonder what happened to my grandparents, my grandfather suffered a massive stroke during this my dedicated grandmother remarried him and cared for him for the next 40 years. The stroke changed my grandfather, and he became a better person. In fact, I am very proud of the man my grandfather eventually grew up to be. Too bad it took something that nearly took his life to realize what it all meant. 

In most cases I think people leave too soon but in the case of an affair, abuse, or neglect enough is enough.


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## Emerson (Oct 6, 2008)

[
In your current relationship with your spouse - How much :

*1. certainty do you get?*

8 - I could answer 10 if it were only "house over their heads, the food they eat, the job they have". Factoring in "love from a spouse" brings my response down. I know he does love me; it's just not that apparent. Most of the time when he tells me it just seems more like a word to say, like 'good bye'.

*2. variety do you get?*

3 - It's pretty dull. In 9 years of knowing him, I have only received flowers once, one rose on our first date. If we have a "date", I'm the one that plans it. I've talked to him about this a number of times and he says, "I know" and that's all the farther it goes. Variety comes from what our children do mostly.

*3. significance do you feel?*

Lowered to 5 - He doesn't make me feel significant but he doesn't make me feel insignificant either. 

Written in last post:- Compliments are nearly non-existent. I never hear that I look good today, etc. One day I asked him if he likes my hair. I thought this would be an easy one for him since I get a lot of compliments from other people on my long, wavy hair and I think it's pretty too. His response when I said "Do you like my hair? Not just right now, but in general?" He said, "As compared to what?" Talk about trying to feed him a chance for a compliment and he just swats it right out of my hand!! Given all of that, I still responded highly because while he doesn't compliment or put me on a pedestal in any way whatsoever, he doesn't belittle or criticize me ever either. Even when I know I need to lose weight (and I'm working on it and seeing progress) he has never said anything to me about being overweight. Once in a while he will even say, "okay, you are pretty smart" when I find solutions to everyday problems (not the relationship kind!).

*4. love and connection do you have with your spouse?*

Lowered to 3 - From your last explanation it sounds like I should be think of a "Intimate and passionate love connection"). Well, this is nearly non-existent except during those intimate moments. He is never flirtatious even when I am trying to be. In this area, we are just dull, dull, dull... I've talked to him about my need/desire for more romance and he told me "being romantic is not in my nature". 

Written in last post - I feel a strong friendship connection. I enjoy being around him; he does things to make the kids laugh and usually makes me laugh more. We have similar interests. I feel like if we were confronted with a difficult situation, he'd be there to hold me. I don't feel much of a passionate connection. He doesn't like to do any kind of public affection like putting his arm around me or holding my hand. Lately, one of our children was with him in his vehicle and I met him to get her. We were in a parking lot near some busy streets in the small town where we live. While I gave him a short kiss I saw him looking around to see if anyone was looking. I just said "who cares if someone sees you giving your wife a kiss!".

*5. growth do you have in this relationship?*

4 - I don't feel like our relationship is growing. I feel like we are in the parental stage of our marriage. When I've asked for more affection and "loving deeds" he says that he wants are children to feel loved and so all his affection goes to them and there's just not that much left over. I am glad that he is so loving with our children. I too want them to know everyday that their mom and dad love them. I'd just like a few minutes of his affection too. I'm very happy that he's a very involved Dad.

*6. "How much do you contribute to the growth of your spouse in being a better husband?" * This question focuses beyond yourself in what you get, and more on what you can give. When you feel like you're contributing, it helps you feel like you're making a difference and feel more alive.

6 - I really try to make communication available and try to be open to what he has to say without getting upset. I am not someone who can keep things bottled up so I usually have to talk about it with him if something in our relationship is bothering me. I have told him what I would like; I've shared with him how I would like a marriage to be/make me feel. I have asked him what things about our marriage are not great for him. He said that prior to the last 6 months or so, the infrequency of lovemaking was a problem. I must have gone through some kind of hormonal change, because now I can't seem to get "satisfied' and he is now complaining that my requests are too often! :scratchhead: He also would like more dates. Other than that, he said everything was fine for him. For Father's Day, I bought him a set of golf clubs (and myself one) so that we could take time off work and have golf dates. I thought this would be fun and the kids are already in daycare so we don't need to find a babysitter. We did it once and it was fun. We do go out for a meal every once in awhile, but it's always me lining everything up. I guess I feel like I'm just always putting pennies into the jar and none are ever coming back to me (if you know what I mean). In the past month, I've started sending in little text messages occasionally which he says he enjoys. He sent me (us) one when I was away for the weekend with the kids. I plan to do something for him this weekend that he's thought of doing himself for years but just never has done it. It's nothing major, just a little helpful act. I was going to include a note with it like "love you!". 

I do feel like I try. I firmly believe that you should treat others how you want to be treated. Unfortunately, even though I've told him as blatantly as possible (without leaving a list of nice things he could do for me)-- he just doesn't seem to get it!

I'm ready to ask him if he wouldn't mind seeing a counselor because I feel like I keep saying the same things over again and he does nothing. _While at the same time, I have TOM who will do almost anything for me and just keeps filling my jar up with pennies..._

*With what score am I least comfortable?*

The love and connection (intimate/passionate love connection) score. To me, the intimate/passionate love connection is what should set spouses apart from any other kind of relationship you have in your world. Is it naive to think that after your married you should still try to treat each other as if your still trying to 'catch' them????

*What are some things that you absolutely love about your husband?*

He makes me laugh
He is a fantastic Dad
He is -plain and simple- a _nice_ guy
We have similar interests/likes
Have similar views of most things (We NEVER argue)
He reads a lot so he's very knowledgable about a lot of topics
He enjoys shopping (I'm not much of a shopper, but when I have to go, it's nice that he's patient)
He rarely gets upset.
He doesn't talk negatively about people.
He sees me as an 'equal' in our marriage, not like he's the husband and therefore, _the head of this household!!!_
I think he looks good.
He will do a lot of things most men probable wouldn't (doesn't mind carrying my purse, will offer to stay and help when I'm hosting a lady's party, wants to take the kids to the dentist or first day of school so that he can experience it too)


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## Greatermindset (Oct 13, 2008)

Hi Emerson,

I took the time and gave your post a lot of thought. It's good that you've been able to map it out. Right now you have a base or a foundation to see where you are now, which is a lot more than other couples in a simular situation. We'll exam foundation a bit more closely in a moment.

One thing I should point out tho, you're not alone in this relationship pattern. A lot of couples find themselves where you are. The relationship dwindles from a once passionate relationship to an OK relationship and the couples don't even realise why. OK relationships tend to get poor results. I can tell by your character and the effort you've put in your response that you're not willing to settle for an OK relationship. You have a higher standard and desire something more from your relationship with your husband which I totally respect.

In the 6 human needs scores, when the majority of the scores are in the ranges of 6s, 5s, 4s, it's an indication the relationship has turned into friends. When they're at 3s, 2s and 1s, what you have is a room mate. (revised) The passion just isn't there, but you know the person cares for you.

So now that we have your scores for the relationship between you and your spouse, we need to look at something else that determines how you may respond to certain situations. The answers that you give here won't be used to judge you or to point out your behaviour is wrong. It's to help to understand the responses to certain situations and see where they lead us.

What we'll look at next are the 2 dominate human needs.

Everyone has 2 dominate human needs from the 6 human needs. These will vary from individual to individual. The order of the needs also plays an important role. One may value variety and certainty in that order, while another may value certainty followed by love and connection. Depending on the order of their 2 dominate human needs, will determine their perspective and the actions they take. The first person may like to travel a lot, while the second person may just want to be secure and loved. 

I'll give you an another example, of a simular set of human needs, but the order of human needs has a drastic difference. In terms of relationships, one wife has certainty and love and connection in that order as her dominate needs, while another wife may have love and connection followed by certainty.

The first wife needs to feel certain, before she can truely give love and connect. The second wife will give love and connect in order to obtain certainty. That little distinct order is a world of difference.

*So now you have a good understanding of the 6 human needs and the 2 dominate human needs, what are your 2 dominate human needs? and in what order?*

Next we're going to have to get down to the nitty gritty. I'm going to ask you a number of questions to try to reveal the source of the problem. They'll be spread out over a number of posts cause the questions asked are based on the answers received. This is where real life face to face communication is good, but we'll make the most of what we have here on the forums.

*In your opinion, what do you think where the problem is with the relationship with you and your husband?*


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## Emerson (Oct 6, 2008)

Thank you Greatermindset for taking the time to help me through this.

My 2 dominate needs are: certainty and love and connection, in that order.

I think the problem with our relationship is that we have settled into our roles as parents and 'adults' and we have neglected to remain lovers. I am just as much at fault as he is, but in the last 6 months I feel like I've stepped back and questioned if this is how I want to live the rest of my married life. I suppose that is why after, 8 years, I called TOM.

TOM's love is so deep and passionate. He is hurting so much as I push him away again and again. I am tearing myself apart between what is best for me, my children, my family, my future and how my actions are going to affect other people. I just realized this is the "certainty" need coming out and clashing with the "love and connection" need. I have exactly the life I hoped to have, it was just supposed to have been with TOM as my husband. Things didn't work out that way. Do I just accept that my heart will always really be with TOM, but I need to stay with my responsibilities. My husband is a wonderful man; it seems like no matter how hard I have tried in 8 years to put TOM out of my mind/heart, he has strongly remained there anyway. I have remained there for him too even though he has thought for the last 8 years that I disliked him.


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## Greatermindset (Oct 13, 2008)

Hi Emerson,

Tom is seems to be meeting a number of your human needs which is why you're drawn towards him.

Being in such a stable relationship, he's probaly meeting the following needs with scores of 7+:

Variety - Something different for a change, and who knows how he'll suprise you
Love and Connection - You beleive he'll offer you the love that you need
Growth - Having this love and connection, you beleive he'll make you grow into a better person
Contribution - Being loved and having your needs met, you want to give back in a way that he'll respond to, so he'll grow into a better man for you.

Heading down this path will have consequences tho, and it will manafest into a lot of pain. Some that you've already described, but I'll list a few here.

* You'll be torn as you question yourself if you made the right decision
* It will trigger off all your fears
* It will destroy both yourself and your husbands self worth and feeling like failures
* Your kids will be torn apart, as they'll love you both very much and may feel they need to take sides or worse, they'll shut down and repress how they feel. Stinting their growth in their soul and as human beings.
* Your kids will be either brought up with another person as a father or they'll be brought up without you.
* You'll probably make the same mistakes made in this marriage and carry it over into the next relationship
* Many nights crying with guilt on what the family has been put through
* It will cost you both financially, a lot more than what you both think.

There's probably more, but this gives you an idea.

So knowing that Tom can meet your needs, while at the same time knowing the actions to move towards Tom can cause a lot of pain, it's fair to say you're torn in some way between the two.

I'll talk more about Tom a little on how he influences you more later on, but lets have a look at some other areas.

Just a few questions, so we understand the situation better.

** How old are the kids now?*

** What are some of the things that you think your husband loves about you?* List as many as you think of. This is probably best to be answered by him, if he's able to participate. 


Your husbands needs, are probably scored very simular to you as yours are with him, not exactly the same but you get the idea. 

** When your husband isn't having his needs met, how does he cope with it? Does he turn to work? Watch TV? Go out drinking with friends? Spend time with the children?*

** How do you cope when your needs aren't being met? Besides thinking of Tom, Do you call your mother? Talk to a girlfriend? Go to the kids for love? Eat food for comfort? Drink?*


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## Emerson (Oct 6, 2008)

Greatermindset, here are answers to your questions.

** How old are the kids now?*

_Our children are 5 and almost 3._

** What are some of the things that you think your husband loves about you?* List as many as you think of. This is probably best to be answered by him, if he's able to participate. 

I asked him last night, "What are some things you love about me?" Here is response word for word. Immediately he said "Your sense of humor", then there was a 30-45 second pause and then "your kindness" and "your gentleness". After about 2 minutes of silence as he tried to think of other "answers", I just felt an overwhelming sadness and felt like I was about to cry. It felt awkward also. I went from the living room where we were sitting to the kitchen to get a glass of water and returned. He didn't say anything else when I returned. I was really surprised by his answers and lack of depth. After living with me for 8 years, I would have thought he would have more specific answers. Again, no pennies added to my jar. I expected him to ask the question back to me as to what I love about him, but he never did.

** When your husband isn't having his needs met, how does he cope with it? Does he turn to work? Watch TV? Go out drinking with friends? Spend time with the children?*

He spends hours and hours on the internet (His work is seasonal so during the winter, it is very common for him to literally spend the whole day (he seems to wake somewhere between 9:30 and 10:30 AM) while I'm at work as well as the time between midnight and 3-4:00 AM on the internet. At one point I was "monitoring" what he was looking at but he wasn't looking at porn or having an affair or anything. It seemed very excessive and I was suspicious.

** How do you cope when your needs aren't being met? Besides thinking of Tom, Do you call your mother? Talk to a girlfriend? Go to the kids for love? Eat food for comfort? Drink?*

Besides TOM, I go to the kids for love.


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## Greatermindset (Oct 13, 2008)

Hi Emerson,

I can see why you're so concerned. In the current state of the relationship, your husband isn't having his needs met and you're not having your needs met. When you both aren't meeting each other's needs, you both look for it from an external source.

When this happens, you both stop relating and the relationship breaks down. I've got a few more questions, just so we can follow through and see what's exactly happening. We'll see what this does, and what we can do.

*While your certainty is an overal 8 in the scheme of things, would it be fair to say, when you've tested him for his love and he hasn't stepped up, your certainty for him decreased?*

*How did you feel when this happened? Did you get scared? Pulled back?*


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## Emerson (Oct 6, 2008)

Greatermindset,

What did you think of my husband's response to the things he loves about me?

*While your certainty is an overal 8 in the scheme of things, would it be fair to say, when you've tested him for his love and he hasn't stepped up, your certainty for him decreased?*

I think when I was thinking certainty in our relationship I was not thinking of the husband-wife relationship entirely. I was thinking that we have adequate means to pay bills, I don't worry from one month to the next about money, he's not an alcoholic, he doesn't ever go out with friends (he doesn't really have any), he doesn't gamble, he doesn't drink excessively, my family likes everything about him, he is well-respected in the community, etc. Do I feel certain of his love for me?? No, not really...only in the sense that he has told me when I straightout asked him. I had this discussion with him about a month ago. I told him that I love him, but I find it really hard to be "in love" with him because I don't feel any romance, passion, etc. He said, "you know I love you, don't you" and I really didn't know. It's not all that apparent. So if I were to score certainty without all the other relationship factors I listed about and solely on how certain I am in his deep intimate love for me, I would score it a 2. How do you feel certain about something that is so rarely initiated? When he does come over and give me a hug or kiss I always wonder how much he really feels it and how much he's doing it out of an obligation.

*How did you feel when this happened? Did you get scared? Pulled back?*

I have never felt scared. I may pull back because I get so frustrated, discouraged and annoyed. We have probably had the "I need more romance/affection/love" discussion about 6 times in the last 6 months. I remember him going out of the way to come over and kiss and hug me the next day after one of those discussions. So out of expressing my concern/frustration/unhappiness so many times, I have received one act where it seemed like he really tried. Most of the time, NOTHING changes. Not even for one day! Now I just feel discouraged and hopeless. It's really hard for me to feel like we have a future together when I can't imagine living a marriage with so little "certainty of intimate love" for the rest of my life. I know he loves me, but I think he does more in the sense that I'm the mother of his children and the person he married rather than a deep intimate love. Because of TOM, I feel like a know the difference. I just want my husband to feel and treat me the way TOM does and everything would be fine.


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## Greatermindset (Oct 13, 2008)

Hi Emerson,

I understand how you feel. Let me share with you something about men.

Men are seeking an unconditional love, a love that most men haven't experienced but from their mother.

The interesting thing is, women love their children unconditionally, but rarely the same to their man. Women beleive their children will always be there, but their man won't. If they gave their unconditional love to their man the way the give to their children, they'll have the same ongoing unconditional love, but very few woman will ever do that. Women hold back cause they're afraid they're going to get hurt. Their children will also hurt them, but they seem to forget that too. It becomes most apparent when they may be at their weakest, and I don't mean in the current stage, but when they're much older, and they feel they have nothing left to live for besides their children, only to realise the children aren't there for them when they most need them. At the point they'll feel like they've been cheated in life, when the truth is, they've only cheated themselves, by holding back the love they were born to give. Tom is just avenue that you think is a solution to meet your love and connection, when it's really just another way of cheating yourself in your marriage.

When you give your love without expecting anything back, it's one of the purest forms of love there is. Even tho you may not feel it, your husband just wants to get to a place where there is love. He doesn't want to hurt you, nor does he want to be hurt. Right now you guys are just hanging on for survival. He doesn't feel like he can succeed in making you happy.

Men live for one thing, and one thing only. You might be thinking of sex, and while he sure does live for it, but it's not the #1 thing. *He lives to make his woman happy, period*. When he can make you happy, he feels successful. When he's not able to, he feels like he's failed. *The result when he fails is his certainty, variety, significance, love & connection, growth, and contribution diminishes*.

One way for you to meet certainty and significance in your relationship is the be happy for your husband and appreciate the things he does for the relationship. Show him that he can succeed in making you happy. This in turn will help meet his human needs with the relationship. If they don't feel like they can succeed, he'll leave physically, for their work or have an affair. Thank God your husband hasn't taken that route, but as you've explained, his way of leaving is by going on the internet. Some men will threaten to leave the marriage if their needs have dimished so low, they may threaten to leave to marriage in order to regain some certainty and significance.

I've heard a lot of couples in trouble tell me that they always gave them everything. The truth is, they each other everything except for what they needed. Once they realise this and put down their fear and hurt, then they can start building on a passionate and intimate marriage from a place of love.

So I ask you Emerson (and others who are reading this). *What is it that your spouse needs, and what are you willing to commit to him to meet his 6 human needs?*


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## Emerson (Oct 6, 2008)

Greatermindset said:


> *What is it that your spouse needs, and what are you willing to commit to him to meet his 6 human needs?*


I've asked him what he is lacking or what I can do for him to improve our marriage and he says nothing. So how am I supposed to know what he needs?

I don't think that "living to make me happy" is even in the top 5 of his list for what he lives for! Your last post seems nothing at all like my husband's way of thinking. I think he's thinking... "You agreed to marry me, I haven't changed and I don't see why I have to do anything different."

Except for the last week, I have been exceedingly nice to him for the past two months and I haven't received one nice gesture in return. Again, I am feeling like...is this how I have to live the rest of my marriage? Pretending everything is wonderful when I really don't feel that way. Giving, giving, giving and getting mediocrity in return?

I know a lot of women in their 60-80's that have lived the way you are describing-waiting on their husbands hand and foot and getting nothing in return. They are often the nicest, sweetest, most giving people. More often than not, they were married young and had/have no way to support themselves. They are taken for granted by their husbands, treated unlovingly and are often shown very little true respect by their husbands. Their husbands seem to think they are entitled to having their wives as their "servants". I have no desire to be like these women. 

A mother/child relationship may be based on unconditional love but it is very often not one sided. As I am typing this my 5 year old just came up behind me and gave me a hug and a kiss for no reason. I may love unconditionally but there is no doubt that my children love me incredibly even though they aren't always happy with me. They will "clean" the living room (put everything on the couches) and say "surprise, Mom, we cleaned the living room!". I am always being given pictures that have been drawn "just for me". I know that there is no one else in this world they'd rather have as their Mother. They do nice, thoughtful things for me and I can "feel" their love in their voices, gestures and actions. I can't think of the last thoughtful thing my husband has done for me or the last time I have really "felt" his love.


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## Greatermindset (Oct 13, 2008)

Emerson said:


> I've asked him what he is lacking or what I can do for him to improve our marriage and he says nothing. So how am I supposed to know what he needs?


I'd suggest rephrasing the question, but don't give up. Maybe ask him if he in a blissful marriage where he was "in love" again, what would need to happen?



Emerson said:


> I don't think that "living to make me happy" is even in the top 5 of his list for what he lives for! Your last post seems nothing at all like my husband's way of thinking. I think he's thinking... "You agreed to marry me, I haven't changed and I don't see why I have to do anything different."


You've got a right to your opinion. I don't believe that your husband doesn't live for your happiness. I'd say atm he's so focused on the problems on how to survive, he hasn't really had a chance to find a solution to a loving and intimate marriage.



Emerson said:


> Except for the last week, I have been exceedingly nice to him for the past two months and I haven't received one nice gesture in return. Again, I am feeling like...is this how I have to live the rest of my marriage? Pretending everything is wonderful when I really don't feel that way. Giving, giving, giving and getting mediocrity in return?
> 
> I know a lot of women in their 60-80's that have lived the way you are describing-waiting on their husbands hand and foot and getting nothing in return. They are often the nicest, sweetest, most giving people. More often than not, they were married young and had/have no way to support themselves. They are taken for granted by their husbands, treated unlovingly and are often shown very little true respect by their husbands. Their husbands seem to think they are entitled to having their wives as their "servants". I have no desire to be like these women.


I hear what you're saying, and it's great that you're putting in the effort. You may need to change the approach of what or how you give, if a certain way hasn't been working. The goal is to meet his needs, while meeting yours at the same time. Your perception of what he needs, may not be the actual thing that he needs. I've never heard of a married couple wanting a divource when all 6 needs are being met by each other.



Emerson said:


> A mother/child relationship may be based on unconditional love but it is very often not one sided. As I am typing this my 5 year old just came up behind me and gave me a hug and a kiss for no reason. I may love unconditionally but there is no doubt that my children love me incredibly even though they aren't always happy with me. They will "clean" the living room (put everything on the couches) and say "surprise, Mom, we cleaned the living room!". I am always being given pictures that have been drawn "just for me". I know that there is no one else in this world they'd rather have as their Mother. They do nice, thoughtful things for me and I can "feel" their love in their voices, gestures and actions. I can't think of the last thoughtful thing my husband has done for me or the last time I have really "felt" his love.


I'm very touched by your relationship with your children. The unconditional responses you've received from your children is from what you've instilled in them by your actions. Tho giving this love to your children is not a bad thing, if they're rank higher in your marriage than the husband, then the husband may not be feeling you're his #1 in your life.

I ask this in a sincere manner, how does your husband feel in terms of his relationship with you when you're giving an unconditional love to the children and not to him?


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## Emerson (Oct 6, 2008)

Greatermindset said:


> I ask this in a sincere manner, how does your husband feel in terms of his relationship with you when you're giving an unconditional love to the children and not to him?


I'll have to think about this for awhile. The parent/child and husband/wife relationships just seem so different. I am having trouble relating the two.


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## Greatermindset (Oct 13, 2008)

Emerson said:


> I'll have to think about this for awhile. The parent/child and husband/wife relationships just seem so different. I am having trouble relating the two.


Let me guide you to find the commonality for unconditional love and help take you back there. There are some slight differences, but if you feel from your heart instead of think from your head, you'll find the answers. 

Think of the time when you first met your husband. 

Did you both fall in love?
What were you willing to do for him?
What were some of the things you did that made him feel special and important?
What was he willing to do for you?
What were some of the things he did that made you feel special and important?


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## Emerson (Oct 6, 2008)

I've thought about your last questions.

I really don't think much as changed between us since we initially fell in love. On the surface we are a very good couple and have a very good marriage. 

I think I have changed. I want to feel something now that wasn't an issue in the past. It's not like my husband isn't doing something...he just never done it and it's never bothered me before. I've been reading the Five Love Languages book. I'm not quite in the middle of it yet. So far, I really don't know which language I am and I have no idea what language he is. I even talked to him about it, showed him the book and we, together tried to decide what language each of us "spoke". Neither of us could decide on his love language at all. I seem to speak a little of all of them, but none are jumping out at me. I know I need physical touch like hand holding, a casual caress and eye contact. I had a realization last night and this morning--Ultimately, I use s_x with him as a way to get him to give me physical touch. I usually initiate all physical contact and if I didn't, we would almost never touch. Even during the day, I am the one that goes to kiss, hug, or tries to hold his hand. I usually get a "peck kiss" and the hand holding is quickly "shaken off".

He hasn't changed. This is really the way it has always been. It's just never bothered me like it has in the past 6 months.

I was 25 and he was 29 when we met. We met through an on-line dating website and both "fit the bill" for what the other person was looking for very well. There were limited "romantic options" in the rural area where he lived (where we now live). While I was living in a metro area, I wanted to get back to a smaller town in the same area of the state where he lived. We have very similar backgrounds, characteristics & interests and found each other attractive. In my 'ad' I was very blunt and specific about who I was and what I was looking for. His response email was very similar to mine in terms of specifics and depth of description (it wasn't a "I like that too" kind of letter). I think we 'spoke' to each other in terms of what we each wanted.

We were (are) a good fit for each other. I think this is what really led us more than our hearts. _It was a smart match you could say._ It is still a _smart match_ but I think I'm starting to feel the effects of not having gone the traditional relationship route. I think we both _decided_ to be in love before we ever _REALLY_ were. You could say we hired each other based on our resumes before we even had an interview. The face-to-face meeting _sealed _the deal. We had spoken on the phone for about 2 weeks before we met in person. About 9 hours after meeting me, he told me he loved me. We were talking marriage after less than 2 months. We were engaged six months after meeting and married about 9 months after that (at ages 27 and 31). 

While some of you may think that we just jumped into it too fast, I really don't think so. We were getting older, wanted the same things out of life and each found the person that met most of their "wants" for a spouse. We are a good pairing. Our families were both extremely happy with our choice too.

Unfortunately, the heart can only be talked into what the mind is thinking for so long. While I do love him and care about him, I just don't feel a sense of peace when I think of being married to him for the rest of my life. My mind is at peace, but I literally feel pressure in my heart when I think about it.


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## MommyFirst (Oct 27, 2008)

Greater,
I need your help! I am in roughly the same place. I am in a miserable marriage but am deathly afraid of divorcing because I am a teacher and I see the effects of divorce every day. I have two small boys, ages 2 and 3. I have absolutely no relationship with my husband. He was just away for the weekend and I didn't even miss him at all. In fact within ten minutes of him being home I was screaming at him, which I know is terrible for my kids. I want to get a divorce because I think I deserve to be with someone who I can be happy with or even just be alone but I don't want to do that to my kids. Something has got to change here. I can't take this much longer. This has been going on far too long and there are innocent victims here who are getting older and understanding more and more. Can you email me? Thanks.


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## Ashley (Oct 21, 2008)

Mommy first, its much worser for the kids to have you feeling unhappy in a loveless marriage fill with screams and cry, than a divorce.
I will not be a problem for them since they will be with you most of the time and dad will only have them a weekend a month or 2.
Get a divorce since there is no love at all and you dont want to stay married. You are using your children as an excuse and keeping them hostage in a bad marriage.
It is a very very bad idea for their future and well being.
Your husband being often away, they will always be with mummy as they use to.
There will not be so much divorce if people were waiitng before getitng married that they know more about life and about what they really want wiht it, and knowing themselves better and not marrying under the age of 28.
Children living in a bad marriage are much more traumatised than children from divorced parents. Also your kids are too young to even realise what is going on. But i can tell you that going through a very violent divorce is hard for the kids, and living with parents who fight in a loveless home is the sadest and hardest childhood you could offer your babies. Be alone for a while and found another man who will love you and that you will love and that will make your kids feel good too, and they will not get much effect of having divorced parents.


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## Greatermindset (Oct 13, 2008)

Emerson, good to hear that you're open minded to ideas and your'e reading up on other materials which may assist. 



Emerson said:


> Unfortunately, the heart can only be talked into what the mind is thinking for so long. While I do love him and care about him, I just don't feel a sense of peace when I think of being married to him for the rest of my life. My mind is at peace, but I literally feel pressure in my heart when I think about it.


It's been a whlie since this last post was made, and while I hear you, I'm just wondering if you've had any more talks with your husband since then. What did you guys talk about and what was the responses?

Also is there anything in particular that's holding you and your relationship back that may have not been mentioned earlier?


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## Greatermindset (Oct 13, 2008)

FirstMommy, I've sent you a PM as I don't have your email. I hope you're able to receive a email notification from the message board.

I understand you're going through a tough time (in some cases a living hell) and you're seriously considering a divource. I wouldn't recommend it without trying everything first. Running away rarely solves anything. The main problem with running away and not trying everything first is, you take you to the next relationship with extra baggage.

I agree you deserve a lot more from what you're feeling in your current relationship. Everyone deserves to be loved.

You have a great opportunity here to reflect deeply into the situation and search for a solution. You can either respond back here (maybe a new thread) or via my PM message which I now have email notification turned on.


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

Ashley said:


> Get a divorce since there is no love at all and you dont want to stay married. You are using your children as an excuse and keeping them hostage in a bad marriage.


ashley, did you just offhandedly tell this woman to get a divorce???

without even delving into the REASONS she is unhappy???


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## Greatermindset (Oct 13, 2008)

voivod said:


> ashley, did you just offhandedly tell this woman to get a divorce???
> 
> without even delving into the REASONS she is unhappy???


I believe Ashley had her own issues to sort out and the advice given wasn't her best. While she is banned, I hope that she does resolve her issues and finds love again. Not saying what she did was right, just saying she's coming from a lot of pain. I hope this provides a better insight in where she's coming from.


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

Greatermindset said:


> I believe Ashley had her own issues to sort out and the advice given wasn't her best. While she is banned, I hope that she does resolve her issues and finds love again. Not saying what she did was right, just saying she's coming from a lot of pain. I hope this provides a better insight in where she's coming from.



whaaat? banned? okay, "while she's banned???" is there some sort of sentence she has to complete before coming back? i sure do miss her jaded advice.


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## Greatermindset (Oct 13, 2008)

voivod said:


> whaaat? banned? okay, "while she's banned???" is there some sort of sentence she has to complete before coming back? i sure do miss her jaded advice.


lols, I like your sense of humour. I'm sure we'll come across more advice like hers in our lifetime


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## Emerson (Oct 6, 2008)

Greatermindset said:


> Emerson, good to hear that you're open minded to ideas and your'e reading up on other materials which may assist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We haven't had any more talks because I always initiated them. I'm at a point where I don't feel like putting much effort into my marriage. We are not unhappy; we don't fight about anything; we are kind to each other. I love him because he is a wonderful person and great father. I just wish I was married to someone else. My relationship with TOM has intensified in the last 2 months (back to what we felt like 8 through 14 years ago).

I feel like both men really do love me and I know that whichever road I go down neither man will be happy nor will I be happy. If I stay married, TOM will be devastated and I know that I am not where I truly want to be (what I'd do if my actions did not affect anyone else in the world).

If I don't stay married and choose TOM, I know my husband will be devastated and I'll hurt my children, extended family and friends; I will not be at peace knowing I caused all of this with a choice I made. 

So, I'm left thinking my best option is to put my own feelings aside and choose what affects the least number of people. 

It's just so depressing to think there's no "dress rehearsal in life" and I'm allowing my life to be directed by what everyone else thinks/feels.


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## Greatermindset (Oct 13, 2008)

Hi Emerson,

I can understand right now you're feeling like you're compromising your life, and in order for you to feel alive again (short term anyways) is to be with Tom. You do have a greater awareness of the consequences, and deep down you know that you can attain a brief moment where you can meet your needs, but you know it's not a sustainable means to meet them, so I honor you for being honest about the situation.

Up to now, we've been "trying" to get your marrage back on track. "Trying" will never work. We either do it or we don't. In order for your marrage to turn around, you'll need to fully commit. I'm not saying you haven't been taking action. I honestly believe you have been "trying". The thing with trying tho, it wears you down and eventually you'll give up.

I'll quickly mention the 3 levels of relationships. It'll help you understand where your relationship is at and what level it needs to be at to turn this around.

A Level 1 relationship is when both individuals are in the relationship for their own personal needs.

A Level 2 relationship is when the couple are in it for exchange. Like I'll only do this when they'll do that.

A Level 3 relationship is when the couple are giving to each other unconditionally

Emerson, where is the relationship currently at?

Next thing is, we'll need to look at your husband so we can understand him better. We need to look at it from his point of view, so I'll need you to pretend that your him and provides scores that he would provide if he would provide, not scores that you would provide. Like the previous exercise, scores range from 0-10. 0 being absolutely none, while 10 being absolutely abundant.

So in his eyes, in the relationship he has with you:

** How much certainty does he have with you?
* How much variety does he have in the relationship with you?
* How significance does he feel?
* How much love and connection does he have with you?
* How much is he growing in this relationship?
* How much contribution does he feel he's making to grow the relationship?​*


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## Emerson (Oct 6, 2008)

I feel like I am in a really strange place in my marriage right now. I have no desire to work on anything in the marriage, yet I feel at peace with doing nothing. I don't feel the annoyance with my husband that I felt in the last few months. I feel like being nice to him; I don't want to look for faults. I have actually felt good about his lack of desire to touch, be romantic, etc. because I really don't want him to do any of those things with me. I don't want to have any talks anymore about what I'm not getting, but would like to get. I am likely feeling this way because I'm growing (or drifting) away from him. I'm okay with being roommates while raising our children, for now. At the same time, thoughts of TOM fill my head and heart. I realize I have stopped trying in my marriage.

It took me a few days to respond to this post partly because I'm not sure I care anymore what happens with my marriage and partly because I wanted to find a way to ask him these questions without him getting suspicious. I wasn't able to think of a way to directly ask him the questions so I'll give it a shot from his perspective. 

A few weeks ago, I completed a marriage questionnaire on the eHarmony Marriage website. He completed it also through an email invitation I sent through the eHarmony site. Although the site called it a "free communication report" there were only 3 free sections and I haven't paid to see the rest of it. The three sections were "Conversation, Conflict Management and Interdependence". From the report, it appeared that everything with our relationship is just fine in these three areas for him. If he read the report, he should definitely have concerns with the way my answers differed. He hasn't said anything about the whole experience so I'm not sure he's even realized there is a report. I don't have any desire to talk about it.

For conversation, his report said "You are comfortable with how you and your wife communicate, and you feel that your conversations lead to increased understanding between you." For conflict resolution, his report said "Arguments between you and your wife have sometimes resulted in discord and turmoil. But more often than not, you two have found ways to successfully manage conflict so that it leads to an agreeable outcome." For interdependence, his report said "You experience a deep-seated interconnection with your wife, being able to rely on her without concern that she feels imposed upon. The balance of time spent together and apart feels really good to you."

That's the same way I think he would answer the questions posed above. I think he'd answer 9-10 for all of them because as far as he is concerned everything is fine. He's an easy guy to please and he rarely has much of an opinion on anything. He's very agreeable and easy to get along with. 

I read another recent post on this forum about being a nice guy or too nice. I think that is what his problem is--he knows his personality is that of a nice, "good" guy, he's very honorable and agreeable. I think he thinks that being a good person should be enough. There shouldn't be any reason to have to do things to 'woo me'.

I'm just losing desire to want to do anything with my marriage anymore. I just want to be "friends" and still remain close so our children don't see controversy with their parents, but I don't want him for a "lover" anymore (I really don't if I ever saw him as a "lover"). I definitely think husbands/wives should be lovers. What's keeping me here more than anything is how much pain divorcing will cause for so many other people. I really love my husband and I don't want to see him hurt. I just don't want to feel so "empty" in a marriage.


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## voivod (Aug 7, 2008)

maybe if you took "baby steps" of intimacy, you guys would end up being lovers. i'm not saying it's all on you, but just maybe a little something to boost the libido...

i'm saying that because i am not sure how my wife sees sexuality the same as she used to. i don't think she sees me the same as i used to be, although physically i'm closer than i've been in years. i just think all the crap i've pulled over the years has taken it's toll.

so if i'm fortunate enough to win a place back in her heart, i'm gonna have to stoke the fires, i think. maybe that's what you need???


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