# Second Opinions on Potential EA



## Abe Froman (May 20, 2016)

Greetings--

This is my first post here on TAM as I have been engaged in a very healthy/helpful discussion thread on LS. I have been reading through several forums on different sites and wanted to see if, since there is likely a different group of forum posters here, any difference in opinion and/or supporting information I can find from you wonderful folks here on TAM. 

In order to save space, I will simply link the LS thread below (I hope that's acceptable under TOS guidelines!) as there has been a lot of back-and-forth regarding my situation on that site (that way, all the responses may also be seen from myself and others). 

The LS thread is: 
Is this an Emotional Affair or am I just jealous? - LoveShack.org Community Forums

Mainly, I'm just curious as to getting anyone else's opinions/thoughts at this juncture as I'm terribly confused about everything that's taking place and some had indicated that TAM might be more of a site focused on reconciliation than divorce (which is my optimal choice--but it would also be very telling if the same diagnosis/treatment is confirmed here, as well). 

Thank you all in advance.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

My gosh......can't see what we could add. You have gotten good advice.......she's just not into you that much....other than as a stable provider. Reconciliation takes two...with most of the effort coming from the cheater. She truly is not wife material, no matter how much you care for her. If you were one of my sons. ....my advice would be to cut ties immediately and divorce asap. This will not ever get better.... and the thinking part of you already knows that.


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## becareful (Jan 28, 2016)

That's not a marriage; that's a birthday party with lots of cake eating.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

OK. I read your story.

You say you have tried talking to her. You have tried logic. She is in her own little fantasy world and it will take a dose of reality to shock her out of it.

Your last hope is to tell her she has a decision to make - him and the convention or you and the marriage. If she chooses him and the convention then you have your answer.

Go on-line and see if your State has divorce papers you can download. File in your part. Ask her to complete them. This may give her the shock of reality she needs to be done with her on-line nonsense. Sometime you have to be willing to loose the marriage to save it. Oh yeah - one condition of saving your marriage would be for both of you to stay away from on-line game chat groups.


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## ne9907 (Jul 17, 2013)

"*. Is my wife having an emotional affair? If so, how do I make her see it? I've read definitions of emotional affairs to her, shared several of these forum posts with her, and had countless arguments with her. We're already seeing an MC... I don't know what else to do.*"

Yes, she is having an emotional affair, and she is also conducting in a manner unbecoming of a married woman who loves and respects her husband
In short, she doesn't give a sh!t about your feelings.


Why do you want to salvage this marriage?

What is about your wife that you love?


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Quoted from your post

I love my wife and want to find a way to save our marriage, but I'm not sure I can keep going on like this.

You want to save the marriage, save yourself 1st. You can't save someone who is drowning but won't grab a hold of the floating device you keep throwing to them.

Throw it out one last time, start up the engine and start moving forward without them. If they grab on and want to try then give it a shot. If not, F them and let them drown.

If you want to jump in and drown with her then go ahead, it's going to be a hard lesson trying to get her to come back around.

Not going to say it hasn't been done, but most of the stories that have been successful (where the spouse stays and puts up with the crap until the WS comes back around) took A VERY LONG TIME and those people to me have either the biggest hearts in the world or are so codependent that no matter how many times you get kicked in the gonads (or women's private parts) you keep going back for more. If you want to be a part of hail Mary, miracle from up above crowd then just sink with her and hope she finally swims back to the surface.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

She is investing herself into a game, and other men. Label it what you want, but you need to enforce a boundary. You've told her what you want, she isn't going to provide it. She is disrespecting your boundary, how long are you going to put up with it?


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

Simple choice.

Her computer/phone or you.

What will she choose?


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Abe Froman said:


> Greetings--
> 
> This is my first post here on TAM as I have been engaged in a very healthy/helpful discussion thread on LS. I have been reading through several forums on different sites and wanted to see if, since there is likely a different group of forum posters here, any difference in opinion and/or supporting information I can find from you wonderful folks here on TAM.
> 
> ...


Yes. Its an affair


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Sounds like the ideal wife. I think she should stop working altogether,so she can devote more time to her interests. You can take on a second or third job to help out.
The poor woman is stretched to the max with a couple dogs and a part time job. This caused her to cheat.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Abe Froman said:


> Greetings--
> 
> *Some had indicated that TAM might be more of a site focused on reconciliation than divorce* (which is my optimal choice--but it would also be very telling if the same diagnosis/treatment is confirmed here, as well).
> 
> Thank you all in advance.


Wishful thinking. TAM is very harsh on Waywards. *THEY* [WW, WH] need to do the heavy lifting for Reconciliation to work. 
You are doing it for yourself and her. This is more than your broad back and legs can manage. She is dead-weight.....but only to you.

You love your wife. That is noble. 

You want her to be the one that you married. That women is a (fig)ment of your imagination. Oh, and she has no need of a fig-leaf in her self-portrait. She wants full-exposure.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Abe Froman said:


> Greetings--
> 
> This is my first post here on TAM as I have been engaged in a very healthy/helpful discussion thread on LS. I have been reading through several forums on different sites and wanted to see if, since there is likely a different group of forum posters here, any difference in opinion and/or supporting information I can find from you wonderful folks here on TAM.
> 
> ...


Your wife is a serial cheater.

She may also be physically cheating. Get tested for STDs, just in case.

And tell her you are getting tested and tell her it is because she has broken your trust and your faith in her.

You are feeling rightful concern about her fidelity. Why? Because she has no fidelity! None! At all!

I would recommend counselling, but as she will not admit she is a cheater, then counselling at this point would be problematic.

It's like trying to bail out a boat with an eggcup with a hole in the bottom.

You just get a tired arm, but the boat still sinks.

Sorry, but she shouldn't have started dating anyone, never mind got married.

She needs deep therapy, IMO.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Welcome to TAM, Abe. 

You will find this place to be much more harsh than LS. And my advice over there stands here as well.

Stop *****footing around, draw your line in the sand, and stick with it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

Sorry you are here my friend.

I read your thread on LS and your wife is serial Cheater. She will never change and you cant do anything about it. 

During your whole Marriage she was always looking for other men. 
You need to find yourself a better woman,more mature then this one.

Stay strong


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

I think a compromise can be reached. As long as she promises not to leave the house, buy her a webcam so she can talk to OM via facetime.

At least you'll know what she's doing..it may hurt for a little bit but you'll suck it up.

#hewantedadifferentopinionbygeorgegiveittohim


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Haven't read the other thread, but I'm guessing she's going to Blizzcon?

BC is notorious for hookups of the we've-been-talking-in-game-and-in-Ventrilo-for-months-and-now-it's-time-to-bang variety.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Your wife is a serial cheater who has been cheating on you off and on since the beginning. She has a counselor who thinks you're controlling because you are resistant to open relationships. Which is kind of funny considering you're already in an open relationship that you refuse to leave.

If you want a monogamous marriage, you aren't getting it with this woman.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

You have a classic parent-child relationship with this woman not a marriage. Your constant barrage of negative comments will only drive her further away and are counter productive. You can't control her you can only control you. Quit asking her if she wants you to leave, eventually she will say yes just see what you will do. Either stay or go because it is the right thing to do, but it sounds like an idol threat. Something more constructive would be find ways to bond together and get off the internet. All people need friends outside of the marriage, but they need to be friends of the relationship. Surround your marriage with like minded people that strengthens the relationship. You also need a joint plan to move forward, not you demanding but a joint effort. Set times to talk about progress, but have days where no relationship issues are discussed to allow you both time to heal. I believe that most relationships can be saved if both parties work to fix the problems. I can also tell you from experience that trying to do it on your own is an exercise in futility.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

you better go with her when she goes to that conference.

especially since OM is going.

when you tell her you are going it will be interesting to see her reaction.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I read you other thread from the get go. At this point you are enabling her, not helping her. If you agree to an open relationship she will later blame you for allowing her to do so. You don't know your wife as well as you think. There is a lot going on with her in suspect is rooted in FOO and CSA issues. Consider this


Thoughts on PBD

This was posted by an individual who while not a doctor has a great*
Insights into BPD and narcissists

1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction;
2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"
3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;
4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude and a double standard;
5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;
6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;
7. Low self esteem;
8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours;
9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;
10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;
11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);
12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;
13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"
14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;
15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;
16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);
17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and
18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she often "rewrites history" because she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.

*if most of those behaviors sound very familiar, it would be helpful for to know which are the strongest and most persistent. I

The poster would urge you that these traits are *common, it is the degree
Across all of these traits.*

Hat tip @Uptown*


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

When she is at the conference lose your keys.

Oh, nos! Now I have to get new locks fitted to all the doors whilst my wife is away from home!

Oh, nos! Now my poor wife will not have any keys to open the doors!

How sad would that be?


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

FYI surviving infidelity will yield the same answers. Although both LS and SI are heavily moderated (especially the wayward sections) the answers although less emotional are the same.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Just read the initial post in your other thread.

Dude. You're not crazy. Sending another dude pics -- and SHOWER pics, no less -- is somehow OK because there's no actual nudity...?

_THAT_ is f*cking crazy.

And his relationship status? Irrelevant.

Your wife is cheating, and her upcoming trip to wherever might as well be to Bang City.

File for divorce ASAP, and let her come home to divorce papers and new door locks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Jesus. I thought I came here with loose boundaries.....but YOUR wife? Damn man......

What exactly is in this for you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> Jesus. I thought I came here with loose boundaries.....but YOUR wife? Damn man......
> 
> What exactly is in this for you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He loves her.

He really, *truly* loves her.

And deep, deep down, he knows that she loves *him*, too.

But when he tries to square the circle (She loves me, yet she pulls *this* kind of stuff on me!) it isn't working for him any longer, as her lack of respect is starting to cause negative feedback for him.

It's very sad.

He is in love with a Rainbow Princess.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Did she go the the convention? If she did, he f-cked her. Hell if a chick was coming on to me like that, I would have. And if he didn't, its not her doing. 
I've got news for you Abe. When a woman pulls the "youre trying to control me" card, she's likely got the hots for someone and you're putting up road blocks that keeps her from feeling him inside of her. Believe me, it ain't real complicated Dawg.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

BTW, am I the only person who noticed on the other thread that Abe's wife sent inappropriate pictures to a TEENAGER?

Seriously, this woman has zero boundaries and seems to be very immature and completely incapable of having an actual marriage with anyone.

Abe, I realize you want the same love your parents had. I get it. I really do. The problem is that you are capable of that kind of love and your wife is not. For a marriage to work long term and for the spouses to have the kind of relationship your parents had, BOTH of them need to be absolutely committed. 

Your mom sold her house and sacrificed her lifestyle and financial security for your father and did everything she could to love, support, and care for him. Your wife won't even stop virtually screwing other guys for you.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Reading through the first page of your other thread, this is fairly simple to diagnose - less so to fix.

First of all, your wife was younger when she married you. 22, you said. While I'm certainly not against marrying young, it's also not terribly shocking when this sort of thing happens later on down the road. Married at 22, so I assume she was with you a few years younger than that, and that basically = a lack of experience in the dating world, and yes, with sex, playing the field, etc. My ex wife was also 22 when we got married, and we were together from when she was almost 17.

The age thing, coupled with her severe lack of self-esteem, depression, etc. REALLY = trouble just waiting to happen.

Add to that the world of MMO's - a place where people basically fantasize about this or that, and with real people. But with real people they have a major buffer in between. It's extremely easy to get to that "next level" with someone, because any sort of rejection isn't face-to-face so it's not nearly as scary.

And lastly, she's outright told you she'd "like" to have sex with this guy (but would respect your wishes if you were against that  )

So now she's going cross-country to a gathering of all these people she "knows" online, INCLUDING this dude she's told you she wants to have sex with, and has shared sketchy photos with. And you won't be there. This isn't just a guy who she's chasing after lustfully online - he's returned the sex chat and photos with her, too.

I ask you respectfully: what do YOU think she's going to do?

No matter what she says she won't do, or if she actually doesn't INTEND to do anything, or even if she's told herself nothing will happen - it probably will.

The way I see it, you really only have two options here, otherwise this will not end well:

She needs to stay home.

or

You need to find a way to go on this trip with her.

I realize the trip is paid for, as is her ticket. I realize a convention like this is a big deal. But your marriage should be a bigger one.

She's already outright expressed the dangers about this to you, and you've long ago recognized her behaviour is a danger to the marriage.

If she goes on this trip without you, this will not end well. And over your birthday, no less, and all paid for by you. Ouch.

As an aside - it's unlikely her behaviour will ever change, to be blunt. You may be able to curtail it this time, but it will likely rear it's head again some time in the future. Low self esteem, depression, etc. isn't "curable". It's alleviated, or masked with drugs, or it's something one learns to live with. My ex wife dealt with all of those, and also married young, and also found something to be obsessed with online - which led to infidelity and the end of our marriage.

At the time of our divorce, I had spent literally half of her life with her. I have not spoken to her in a few years, but I have seen a few pictures here and there (6 degrees of separation and all that) and she does not look happy. If I were a betting man, I'd put money on it that she hasn't changed a bit.

Now, all those years I spent with her, I loved her very much. Just as you love your wife. I forgave the "crazy", I empathized and sympathized with her issues. I was there for her. I forgave her numerous times (not for infidelity, but for all the other issues, like losing jobs, alienating friends and family, etc.) I learned to live with somebody who had these challenges.

Basically, I became a martyr, sacrificing my own life and happiness. Which is all well and good, because those are the vows we took, and I knew this going in.

However, these things rarely end well for the martyr. While one is living that life, you don't want to abandon this person. But the reality is, you can't fix them. You can't even help them, to be honest. You can be there for them, you can guide them in the right direction (you can lead a horse to water...).. You WILL get hurt.

And this is the perfect storm - married young, depression, low self-esteem, MMOs, online friends, major convention she's attending alone, OM will be there.

Frankly, if she insists on attending this convention alone, that should be it. If you can't go, and she still does - not good. If you can go with her and she resists that - not good.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> BTW, am I the only person who noticed on the other thread that Abe's wife sent inappropriate pictures to a TEENAGER?
> 
> Seriously, this woman has zero boundaries and seems to be very immature and completely incapable of having an actual marriage with anyone.
> 
> ...


Yeah. Especially a teen who was dating a girl his own age. That was even worse, IMO.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

hi, @MattMatt, 

His wife is not capable of the achieving the concept we would call love, just limerence. This site offers some good insight The Truth About Limerence Affairs - Joe Beam


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

JohnA said:


> hi, @MattMatt,
> 
> His wife is not capable of the achieving the concept we would call love, just limerence. This site offers some good insight The Truth About Limerence Affairs - Joe Beam


Sadly she may be capable of both the former and the latter.

But her overwhelming desire for the latter renders the former rather moot.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

@MattMatt, I doubt she is. And if she does it will not be with him, and it will only be an approximation of it giving the appearance on the surface but not the true reality of the nature of the relationship.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

JohnA said:


> @MattMatt, I doubt she is. And if she does it will not be with him, and it will only be an approximation of it giving the appearance on the surface but not the true reality of the nature of the relationship.


But it doesn't matter. She has broken the marriage.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

alexm said:


> Now, all those years I spent with her, I loved her very much. Just as you love your wife.


Here's the reality I keep harping on and it seems most guy just can't get the arms around it. They keep tlaking about how much they love her. Memorize this my man,
repeat it three times a day for three weeks and teach it to your sons, lest they, like you, will be relying on the completely irrelevant factor of how much they love her. Here goes, and remember three time a day for three weeks;

_"The only thing that will keep a woman committed to you depends only on how much she loves you; not on how much you love her."_


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Abe*
> Mainly, I'm just curious as to getting anyone else's opinions/thoughts at this juncture as *I'm terribly confused* about everything that's taking place and some had indicated that TAM might be more of a site focused on reconciliation than divorce (which is my optimal choice--but it would also be very telling if the same diagnosis/treatment is confirmed here, as well).
> 
> Thank you all in advance.



Abe
You got over 100 posts on the LoveShack forum and over 50 here.. Most were in agreement and you should not be “terrible confused” unless you are avoiding listening to their advice. Now you are here at TAM wanting to get reinforcement so that you can justify in your mind an R.

Here are a few cold hard facts about your situation that must be addressed by you:

*1	Your wife has proven for years that she does not repect you
2	You do not trust her*

Now the above are the two most important factors in real love and are mandatory for a successful relationship. You have neither of the two. Furthermore, you are acting too weak to stand up for yourself and do what is needed to put a stop to the destruction that she and you are doing to the marriage and to yourself. You have been called an ostrich and a doormat and that seems to fit very well with your behavior.

Your marriage is doomed unless you and her make an IMMEDIATE radical turn around that starts to build respect and trust. You are doomed unless you get the right help and then you do your part to be much more self-sufficient and less codependent.

You are going to have to do as much actions as you have talking. Talking without strong actions is not going to be a winner for you but will draw out a lot more of you being disrespected and torn down.

*Are you willing to take a very strong stand to stop the disrespect that you wife has been giving you for years?* If you are not then I do not think you can be helped.


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

Man sorry you are going through this.

Cant believe you are here even asking the question.

She needs to be kicked to the kerb ASAP.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Hey abe, where to next. Might try a C old forum. They will tell you this is normal and you will learn to like it.

OR

Abe you are not going to find a magic solution to your problem with your wife.

Like people have said you have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it. File for divorce and go from there.

Stop trying to save her from herself. The more you do this the more she will pull away.

If she ask why you filed for divorce just tell her she has cheated on you in the past and is in a EA now and you are not staying married to a woman you can not trust. THIS IS ALL YOU SAY NOTHING MORE DO NOT ENGAGE.

Read up on the 180 plan and put it to use, she will notice this.


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## Abe Froman (May 20, 2016)

Thank you to all who commented (even some of the more sarcastic comments). Here is where I stand right now: 

1. We are going to attend an MC session tomorrow afternoon and I am now to the point where I am starting to emotionally "check out". It is not that I don't optimally "wish" that things would work out (I still want that!), but it is that I simply cannot take the animosity, attacks, and emotional beatdowns much longer. 

2. I DO love my wife and do so genuinely. I mainly bring this point up to refute anyone who has insinuated that what I feel is not "real". I recognize that I have enabled my wife in many ways throughout the course of our relationship and accept the blame/responsibility for doing so. I know that I am far from blameless in this entire experience and have potentially created the proverbial "monster" with whom I am forced to deal. Regardless, everything I have done has been because I deeply care about and want the best for my partner. 

3. With all of that said, I am a bit conflicted at this juncture. While resentful of the fact that she "has" to do it, my wife has put forth what I would constitute a "good faith effort" into agreeing to some of the boundaries established by our MC. She has regularly put the phone down at 9 p.m. each night for almost a week (with a few blips here and there by a couple of minutes--one of which occurred last night and led to a rather testy exchange about "how" I reminded her that it was past 9 o'clock). The fact that she has been trying at least to some degree (although extremely resentfully) makes it difficult to really be aggressive with her in my exchanges. I suppose I'm torn about whether this is a sign of potential growth down the road or if it's a case of "too little, too late".


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Hi Abe, 

You need to establish a life for yourself. She can follow or leave. Not to do so is to die a little bit everyday. Welcome her to follow you, but the price is firm boundries. 

Is she still going to the convention? At this point I would actually be supportive. Although when she came home her belongings would be packed and in storage.


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## Abe Froman (May 20, 2016)

JohnA said:


> Hi Abe,
> 
> You need to establish a life for yourself. She can follow or leave. Not to do so is to die a little bit everyday. Welcome her to follow you, but the price is firm boundries.
> 
> Is she still going to the convention? At this point I would actually be supportive. Although when she came home her belongings would be packed and in storage.


JohnA--

Yes, she is still going to the convention. She spent almost the entirety of the weekend working on designing a graphic to put on a t-shirt of the character through Photoshop (she's still not entirely done with it...after about 30+ hours invested). She's purchased a ton of accessories/clothes for her cosplay outfit and has talked non-stop about it for weeks/months. 

Last night, we got into a bit of an argument (surprise, surprise) and she asked me to tell her specifically what I wanted her to do, etc... I said that I'm sick of telling her what I want her to do and that she should think about making offers of her own volition and I inquired as to whether she had ever considered saying something like, "I know that me going to this convention is upsetting to you...would you rather I not went?" OR "I know my talking to [OM] bothers you...would you like it if I stopped?"... She said the thoughts had NEVER crossed her mind because she thinks that they would be "unfair" and would involve "sacrificing things that don't need to be sacrificed". 

So that's that... 

BTW--to another poster, the convention is Magic City Con (in Birmingham, AL)...not BlizzCon.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Abe Froman said:


> "sacrificing things that don't need to be sacrificed".


Ahaha

Geez..


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

I bet she would get bummed or upset if you said you are going with her.
That would be all I would need to know.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

That about sums it up. What do you intend to do?



Abe Froman said:


> JohnA--
> 
> Yes, she is still going to the convention. She spent almost the entirety of the weekend working on designing a graphic to put on a t-shirt of the character through Photoshop (she's still not entirely done with it...after about 30+ hours invested). She's purchased a ton of accessories/clothes for her cosplay outfit and has talked non-stop about it for weeks/months.
> 
> ...


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

You cannot deal with crazy. To you her statements are insane, to her your statements are insane. 

At this point simply tell her you understand her viewpoint and drop it. Instead let's discuss seif-esteem. Self-esteem is rooted in your belief of being able to set and achieve a goal. One fundamental rule is to set goals that can be achieve and acceptance when they cannot. You set a goal to save this marriage, it cannot be saved. You need to accept this and re-set your goal on divorce. 
The reason I said drop it when discussing her viewpoint is because at this stage her viewpoint is meaningless. 

Abe you are deep into the rabbit hole. You need a plan of action and following it to get out. I am asking you to make a commintment to yourself. 

Begin reading about the 180 and start implementing it. Critical Readings For Separation and Divorce - LoveShack.org Community Forums
Now what state do you live in? State Specific Divorce and Custody Information - Divorce Source

Do you own or rent? 

What accounts are joint? How much debt do both of you have? 

You have not mention children, do you have any?

There are more questions but these are a good start.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Leave her


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

@ButtPunch the question is how


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

I agree with a earlier post that said to pack her crap after she is gone to the convention.

You need to stop arguing with her, stop engaging with her. STOP REMINDING HER IT IS 9PM!!!!!!!!!!

If she will not do it on her own, you can not make her. She is showing you how much she respects you and your marriage when she brakes the boundaries. Not at

all. Again stop engaging with her, leave her be. Be civil with her but that is it. Let her see by your actions what she is to expect not your words. You have said 

everything you could on the matter. Remember actions speak louder then words ever will.

If your goal is to win her back, you are doing everything you should not be doing.

Also, find another counselor. This one saying your wife has the right to talk with the AP is so wrong.

You need to read on the 180 plan.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Abe Froman said:


> With all of that said, I am a bit conflicted at this juncture. While resentful of the fact that she "has" to do it, my wife has put forth what I would constitute a "good faith effort" into agreeing to some of the boundaries established by our MC. She has regularly put the phone down at 9 p.m. each night for almost a week (with a few blips here and there by a couple of minutes--one of which occurred last night and led to a rather testy exchange about "how" I reminded her that it was past 9 o'clock).


 She has had emotional affairs (EA) with multiple other men which has included her exchanging full nude photos with them, and the best that you get from her is that she is resentful as she agrees to only "*some of the boundaries* established by our MC". Only some? Are you kidding me?

She has negotiated such that she gets to stay in contact with her most current affair partner until 9 p.m., and in less than a week she is already having blips and "a rather testy exchange" when she crosses even that weak line. The truth she needs to go full no contact for this to work. She needs to change her cheating lifestyle. When you let a cheater a compromise that allows them to still cheat but just not as much, you lose before you start.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

ThePheonix said:


> Here's the reality I keep harping on and it seems most guy just can't get the arms around it. They keep tlaking about how much they love her. Memorize this my man,
> repeat it three times a day for three weeks and teach it to your sons, lest they, like you, will be relying on the completely irrelevant factor of how much they love her. Here goes, and remember three time a day for three weeks;
> 
> _"The only thing that will keep a woman committed to you depends only on how much she loves you; not on how much you love her."_





Abe Froman said:


> I DO love my wife and do so genuinely. I mainly bring this point up to refute anyone who has insinuated that what I feel is not "real". I recognize that I have enabled my wife in many ways throughout the course of our relationship and accept the blame/responsibility for doing so. I know that I am far from blameless in this entire experience and have potentially created the proverbial "monster" with whom I am forced to deal. Regardless, everything I have done has been because I deeply care about and want the best for my partner.


Abe, I'm with you on this one, but Phoenix is right. That is advice I wish I would have had 8-10 years ago.

I would have said the exact same thing you did above, at that point in my life. With the benefit of hindsight, as well as seeing what the "real world" looks like, I can tell you that what I felt for my ex wife was not love, it was dependence. And that's not something anybody sees while it's happening, nor wants to admit should they actually realize it.

I did things for my ex wife to make her happy, because that's what I thought I was supposed to do. Not just to be a good husband, but also to surreptitiously attempt to remove all the negative in the relationship. I figured if I could balance the positive and the negative, things would work themselves out. Problem is, you're essentially feeding the beast. The more I did for her, the more she took advantage, the more the envelope got pushed.

Don't get me wrong, she was appreciative of the things I did and the forgiveness I showed for her "crazy", but she just kept on going deeper and deeper regardless.

That's the trap people fall into all too often. When boundaries are not established, or not stuck to, one person loses respect for the other - and it's almost always the one who pushes (or breaks) those boundaries, not the other way around.

And when there's no respect, it just makes it easier for that person to justify their actions.

My ex wife knew I loved her, and she cared about me, and yes, she loved me - but not in the way she was supposed to love me. At one point, she did, no doubt. But over time, when she figured out she could do what she wanted, when she wanted, and I failed to challenge her in any way - that was it.

Relationships and marriages are a partnership. No one thing should create such a divide between two people. In my case, it was two things - an online obsession (with a band) and working out/getting fit. I shared an interest in the band, but not to the degree my ex wife did. I had (and still have!) no interest in working out.

I lost my ex wife to those two things. Prior to those becoming a part of her life, we were truly a great couple. No re-writing of history required. The first 6-7 years of our 14 together, we could have written a book on how to be in a great relationship.

For the last 6-7 years of our marriage, they consumed her. I tried to share her enthusiasm with both, but couldn't. The music one was partially successful, as I did like the band and the genre of music, and it didn't require a lifestyle change. But over time, it became "her" thing, and I was less and less involved by the end - by her choice. Like your wife, she made many online friends, and I was relegated to an outside observer. And guess where she met the OM?

You're in the middle of it, RIGHT NOW. You're seeing it happen. I didn't. You're even partially funding it. I had red flags, but not to the degree that you do. All of this was happening in my marriage before smart phones, Skype, Snapchat, etc. Had it been happening now, I have no doubt my ex wife would have sent nude pics, racy texts, etc. All she had was email and PM's through the message board she was addicted to, and she wasn't very computer/internet savvy. Yours is sending racy pics and talking to guys through apps - you've caught her, and she hasn't denied it.

She's even told you she'd "like" to have sex with this one guy. WHO IS GOING TO BE AT THIS CONVENTION. What husband or wife in a good relationship wants to have sex with somebody else? And what husband or wife actually verbalizes this to their spouse? That is not a normal thing to say, let alone even think. One can fantasize, sure, but it's normally about somebody who is unavailable (ie. a celebrity of some sort). But to actually WANT to have sex with somebody else? To tell your spouse about it?

And now she's going to a convention where this guy will be, as well as all her online friends, engaging in fantasy-land video game stuff - without you there.

But she tells you she wouldn't do anything with him, so you're more or less okay with it.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Cancel the Internet and see what reaction you get.


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## Fenris (Mar 4, 2014)

Abe Froman said:


> "sacrificing things that don't need to be sacrificed".


Such as the marriage?


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## ne9907 (Jul 17, 2013)

I wonder what it is you love about her?

This is a serious question. Ask yourself: Why do I love this woman?

Love is about actions, love is not just a word. 

Even a dog shows in his actions they love you.

What does she do to make you feel loved.

When you answer truthfully, you will have your answer.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Abe,
You lit the fuse by buying her ticket to the convention, and in your state of denial you believe the dynamite won't explode.
Odds are slim my friend. If a PA is your line in the sand ,you're about to help her cross that line. Wet your fingers and pinch the wick. You'd be best served to cancel her trip ( if you have that ability) or set some hard and fast boundaries for her as consequences for going on it.


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

JohnA said:


> I read you other thread from the get go. At this point you are enabling her, not helping her. If you agree to an open relationship she will later blame you for allowing her to do so. You don't know your wife as well as you think. There is a lot going on with her in suspect is rooted in FOO and CSA issues. Consider this
> 
> 
> Thoughts on PBD
> ...



BPD and NPD are two totally different conditions. Is the person who wrote that, trying to lump the two together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Jus260 said:


> BPD and NPD are two totally different conditions. Is the person who wrote that, trying to lump the two together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They are both cluster B behavior disorders (DSM V).

They share many similarities.

Modern psychology loosely lumps them together.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Odds are slim my friend. If a PA is your line in the sand ,you're about to help her cross that line.


Damn right. I bet her soon to be lover, as well as her, are chomping at the bits waiting until he can melt into her puzzy.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Jus260 said:


> BPD and NPD are two totally different conditions. Is the person who wrote that, trying to lump the two together?


I wrote it, Jus. Very good question. Except for one trait, I created all of the 18 warning signs generally by giving two common examples of each of the nine BPD symptoms. The exception is #4, which is "a strong sense of entitlement." As you know, "entitlement" is one of the defining traits for NPD, not BPD. 

I included it only because, IME, I've never met a person having serious emotional regulation problems who does not exhibit a strong sense of entitlement quite often. Indeed, I don't know how it is even possible to have the emotional development of a 3- or 4-year-old -- as BPDers typically do -- and not experience a feeling of entitlement frequently.

With that exception, I usually strive very hard to keep BPD and NPD traits separate. This is important at this forum because, when an abused partner comes stumbling out of a toxic R/S with a BPDer or NPDer, the question he/she most wants answered is "Was I ever really loved or was it all fake from the beginning?" Whereas full-blown BPDers are capable of love, narcissists are not. Whereas BPDers are emotionally unstable, narcissists generally are not. And, whereas BPDers generally truly believe the outrageous allegations coming out of their mouths, narcissists do not.

The importance of these distinctions is why I generally object to nearly all of Shari Schreiber's numerous blog articles on BPD (except for two). She lumps BPDers together with narcissists and sociopaths and refers to all of them as "BPDers."


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

ButtPunch said:


> Leave her


He won't leave her. 



TRy said:


> She has negotiated such that she gets to stay in contact with her most current affair partner until 9 p.m., and in less than a week she is already having blips and "a rather testy exchange" when she crosses even that weak line. The truth she needs to go full no contact for this to work. She needs to change her cheating lifestyle. When you let a cheater a compromise that allows them to still cheat but just not as much, you lose before you start.


BTDT. I too pushed the boundaries immediately after they were set. 

Abe, I am somewhat in the water like your wife but nowhere as deep. Even in my shallow water, if I went to the convention I would hook up with my woman. IMO your wife is in way over her head.

You have two choices: Let her drown (go to convention and bang the other guy MULTIPLE TIMES) or drag her out of the water (go with her or no convention.)

If she is willing to divorce you if you "cancel" the convention, you have your answer as to where you are on her priority list.

You have one tremendous advantage. You know she is in the water. It's not hidden, but clearly put - I'd say "shoved" - in your face.

You are going to get splashed with water (rough times) no matter what is decided. You can try to save her by dragging her out of the water. If she goes back in, you have your answer. 

Time to act, not react.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> You are going to get splashed with water (rough times) no matter what is decided. You can try to save her by dragging her out of the water. If she goes back in, you have your answer.
> 
> Time to act, not react.


Why is it that most of the betrayed and future betrayed husbands seem scared shytless of any confrontation with their wife? What the hell the wife's going to do if you throw a kink in her plans? Call you controlling, talk nasty to and screw another guy? 
Some guys I guess are happy playing second or third string. But hey, at least you're on the team and she may throw you scraps occasionally.


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## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Tell her you are going with her to the convention and see her reaction. 

It will tell you EVERYTHING


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

eric1 said:


> Tell her you are going with her to the convention and see her reaction.
> 
> It will tell you EVERYTHING


That's too simple and effective Eric. Its like my wife said to me about my frustration at mother complaining to me about my sister in law, "She doesn't want advice. She just wants to vent"


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Why is it that most of the betrayed and future betrayed husbands seem scared shytless of any confrontation with their wife? What the hell the wife's going to do if you throw a kink in her plans? Call you controlling, talk nasty to and screw another guy?
> Some guys I guess are happy playing second or third string. But hey, at least you're on the team and she may throw you scraps occasionally.


I agree completely.

These guys seem to have forgotten a basic fundamental in life.....you can't expect someone else to respect you in life until you learn to respect yourself.

And that is all boundaries really are.....refusing to accept anything less than the basic respect any person deserves.

I see so many BS's talk about how their WS has destroyed their self-esteem/self-respect.

In many cases, it was actually gone long before, as the future BS consistently gave in and compromised on boundaries for years prior to the A.

All the A did was reveal that their self-respect had left the building long ago.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

You are wasting your money on MC my friend. Better spend it on a good lawyer. 

She is serial cheater and she was cheating on you your whole Marriage. She will never change. 

You said to her it was alright to have contact with this man but only limited hours. She can go and see him. You are really weak man,sorry.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Abe,
> You lit the fuse by buying her ticket to the convention, and in your state of denial you believe the dynamite won't explode.
> Odds are slim my friend. If a PA is your line in the sand ,you're about to help her cross that line. Wet your fingers and pinch the wick. You'd be best served to cancel her trip


 :smthumbup::smthumbup:
Quoted for truth. The time for the OP to take a stand is now if wants to make sure that it does not get physical.



Rubix Cubed said:


> You'd be best served to cancel her trip ( if you have that ability) or set some hard and fast boundaries for her as consequences for going on it.


 There should be no qualifier statement "if you have that ability", as a line in the sand needs to be drawn on her not going on this trip even if some of the money is non-refundable. Also, since crossing boundaries is something that she does on a regular basis, although she may agree to observe additional "hard and fast boundaries" to get the OP to agree to this trip, the OP should not think that these new "hard and fast boundaries" will actually have any real meaning once she sees the other man.

The OP's wife going on a trip out of town without him, where she will be seeing an emotional affair partner that she is still in daily contact with, and who she has stated that she wants to have sex with, cannot be agreed to by the OP under any conditions. This is the hard and fast boundary that has to be draw, her cheaters chant of "I will not be controlled" be dammed . The OP must make it very clear that he is willing to end the marriage over this, and if she is willing to go on this trip anyways, then he will know that the marriage is dead and needs to be done and buried.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

TRy said:


> :smthumbup::smthumbup:
> Quoted for truth. The time for the OP to take a stand is now if wants to make sure that it does not get physical.
> 
> There should be no qualifier statement "if you have that ability", as a line in the sand needs to be drawn on her not going on this trip even if some of the money is non-refundable. Also, since crossing boundaries is something that she does on a regular basis, although she may agree to observe additional "hard and fast boundaries" to get the OP to agree to this trip, the OP should not think that these new "hard and fast boundaries" will actually have any real meaning once she sees the other man.
> ...


 The "if you have that ability" was meant as would she even listen or care, not about ticket refunds or room cancellations. He'd have his answer either way, but that's what he's afraid of.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Your mge. as you know it WILL NOT SURVIVE THAT CONVENTION----on her own with a male that she is having an EA with----I am VERY willing to bet----her EA----turns into a PA---------you need to decide, whether you want this mge you are in, to survive----if you want the mge----then you have to take a hard line, and draw your line in the sand-----NO CONVENTION------------it seems a good number of your marital problems come from your wife and her game/role playing on the computer-----that also needs to END.-----she needs to either find a full time job, or get some hobbies----to occupy her time-------Hobbies that do not have males involved in the hobby------------IMHO----if she goes to the convention----Divorce needs to be put on the table


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

Uptown said:


> I wrote it, Jus. Very good question. Except for one trait, I created all of the 18 warning signs generally by giving two common examples of each of the nine BPD symptoms. The exception is #4, which is "a strong sense of entitlement." As you know, "entitlement" is one of the defining traits for NPD, not BPD.
> 
> I included it only because, IME, I've never met a person having serious emotional regulation problems who does not exhibit a strong sense of entitlement quite often. Indeed, I don't know how it is even possible to have the emotional development of a 3- or 4-year-old -- as BPDers typically do -- and not experience a feeling of entitlement frequently.
> 
> ...



The reason I asked is because I once took a look at the BPD Wikipedia page. After reading it, I realized I met more than enough of the criteria for BPD. That's why I was confused when I read your post about a sense of entitlement. I don't f*ck with people unless I'm provoked. I have a much lower tolerance for bullsh*t than most people. I really don't feel entitled to have anything from anyone. Most people think I should be asking for and expecting more. People at work think I'm weak. It's hilarious.

When I think of NPD, I think of attention wh0res who have no conscience. I wish I had no conscience. Then I wouldn't have to feel bad about everyone else's problems. I treat people the way I want to be treated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Jus260 said:


> I realized I met more than enough of the criteria for BPD.


Jus, you should be perfectly capable of spotting strong occurrences of BPD symptoms. They are traits we all exhibit to some degree -- and to varying degrees at different points in our lives. This is why it is so easy for us to know what these symptoms feel like from the inside and look like from the outside (when seeing them in other people). 

As far as "diagnosing" BPD -- in the sense that term is used in every medical field -- you and I cannot do that. Indeed, _nobody on the planet _can do it. No professional has yet proven what it is that causes some people to exhibit strong and persistent BPD symptoms. True diagnosis requires a determination of the CAUSE, not a description of the SYMPTOMS.

Hence, when psychologists say they have "diagnosed" BPD, what they are really saying is that they've determined that the symptoms are a 10 on a 10-point scale. That determination, which you and I are not qualified to make, is arbitrary and has value primarily only to the insurance companies (who don't want to pay for treatment) and judicial courts (who don't want to institutionalize people). Otherwise, it generally is of little value because a person whose symptoms are an 8 or 9 on the 10-point scale -- and hence "does not have BPD" -- likely is almost as miserable, and nearly as difficult to live with, as a person scoring a full 10 points.



> I really don't feel entitled to have anything from anyone.


As I noted above, "entitlement" is not a defining trait for BPD in the DSM-5. Rather, it is on my list of BPD warning signs only because my experience is that -- because a BPDer's perception of reality is so heavily reliant on whatever intense feeling he is experiencing at this very moment -- and because a BPDer typically perceives of himself as a victim who has been shortchanged by others, especially by loved ones -- he likely will feel entitled to his loved one's sacrifices, particularly when splitting that person black.

Moreover, keep in mind that -- even with the nine defining traits that are listed in the DSM-5 -- most are not exhibited strongly by every BPDer. That's why a person can be diagnosed as having full-blown BPD even when they exhibit only 5 of the 9 traits at a strong and persistent level.



> When I think of NPD, I think of attention wh0res who have no conscience. I wish I had no conscience.


I agree with you that BPDers can be very caring individuals who have a strong conscience that helps them distinguish right from wrong. The BPDers' problem is not lacking a conscience or being bad people. Rather, their problem is having little ability to regulate their own emotions, which results in their frequently having intense feelings that distort their perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations. Hence, BPDers typically become abusive not out of a desire to harm other people but, rather, out of a desire to protect themselves from a person who has triggered one of their fears.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Did we lose Abe?


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

blueinbr said:


> Did we lose Abe?


I think he's jumping from forum to forum hoping to find one that will say staying is his best choice.

LS basically gave him the same advice so he came here IMO. It's like the guy with cancer, keeps going from doctor to doctor and it's the same results. But he's going to keep going until he finds that one doctor who tells him, nope all the other doctors were wrong and you're 100% healthy.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Haven't read the other thread, but I'm guessing she's going to Blizzcon?


 @CH A quick google says that is in November. Long time to wait for an update on this thread. 5 months of Abe sweating it out?

Jeez. I could not do that.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

blueinbr said:


> @CH A quick google says that is in November. Long time to wait for an update on this thread. 5 months of Abe sweating it out?
> 
> Jeez. I could not do that.


She's a WoW crack addict then! Been there done that for almost 8 years. Almost every guy was all over the girls that came to those meets at blizzcon, if they were half way decent looking.

I've hosted almost a dozen clan meets through the years, from Counterstrike to WoW (last one was 6 years ago) since I lived close to the convention center. And the main hushed topic was if either the girls were hot/cute or not hot/cute.

Someone almost always hooked up each year. BTW, never asked and was never told if they were married or had BFs. The ones who never came, we always knew upfront if they were with someone already. The ones who kept their status vague, always seemed to show up for most of the meets. They LOVED BEING THE CENTER OF ATTENTION!

Was comical watching all these guys fawn over these girls. BTW, it is somewhat true about gamers having no social life lol, some of the flirting was just too funny. Oh the lines used....

OH, I would give DKP to win some loot off of you, hahahahahahaha, WTF. I just had to roll my eyes at times. OP, it's not all about the game!!!! BEWARNED already, I have 1st hand experience in seeing things happen or hearing about certain things or getting pics about certain things....

Even had a boyfriend show up at my house once with 3 other buddies asking for his GF. The look on his face was not of a person who was very happy to have to come and get her. And the look on her face was the oh crap I didn't tell him I was coming here with a bunch of guys.

Dammit, I just realized I paid for all the food and drinks (sans beer) all those times. Bastards!!


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

CH said:


> She's a WoW crack addict then! Been there done that for almost 8 years. Almost every guy was all over the girls that came to those meets at blizzcon, if they were half way decent looking.


Are these all young kids? What kind of age range could Abe expect the OM to be? Has to be close to his W, right?


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

blueinbr said:


> Are these all young kids? What kind of age range could Abe expect the OM to be? Has to be close to his W, right?


The ages ranged from early 20s to mid 30s for the entire group. I was on the older range of the spectrum. Most were in their mid 20s.

We had some dinner meets and seen from late teens (18, 19, 20, even some younger gents at 16 or 17) to 2 or so who were in their 40s at the time.

When it came time to talk about the game, there was no race, age, etc...bias.

And no, the OM could be younger (alot younger) or even older. Will never no unless you see them because some people lie about their age.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

To clarify, I wound up reading the initial post in his other thread and, IIRC, it's not Blizzcon after all.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

BTW--to another poster, the convention is Magic City Con (in Birmingham, AL)...not BlizzCon.[/QUOTE]



This is where she was going. It starts June 10th.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Abe Froman (May 20, 2016)

Update on where things stand and what has happened:

I have done my best to avoid posting on any forums as we have attempted to work through some of the challenges that have been described here and elsewhere. With that said, a great deal of what many have suggested might happen has indeed taken place. 

Shortly after my most recent posts, my wife and I had brief separations/fights with one of us leaving (though always returning for the night). One night, she flatly refused the 9 p.m. "curfew" and took her phone with her and left to talk with her friends until 7 a.m. the next morning (she managed to get back in the house as she had a key I was unaware of). On another evening, I left briefly due to a fight.

Regardless, looking back on those episodes now seems "petty". On May 31, we had what I thought was a major breakthrough in terms of healing our marriage. During a session with our MC, my wife said that she was tired of the fighting and genuinely wanted to commit to me and only me. She had earlier made the offer to stop contacting the OM the previous Thursday (prior to one of our fights) and I have to admit that I was both surprised, yet happy at her renewed commitment (at least in words). She indicated that she had a lot of personal struggles with flirtatiousness and that she knew that she had to work on her problems if she wanted to stay in our marriage--and that's what she wanted to do. Needless to say, on the way home from that session, I felt like maybe things might work out for the first time in a long time.

Later that night... about 4-5 hours after our session, I walked into my wife's bathroom as she was taking a bath and asked for her phone because it was 9 p.m. I took the phone downstairs to plug it in and happened to notice that one of the most recent apps she was using was a picture editor (Pixlr) and clicked on the app only to discover a picture of her thong being pulled aside to expose her genitalia. I immediately marched back upstairs and called her out on it, asked who she was sexting (it was the AP I had been trying to ignore and give her the benefit of the doubt about), and told her to "get out" (meaning both the tub and the house--and probably my life). 

I held onto her phone and took it into our office where I was working to cancel her flight for the upcoming trip. I contacted via email the trip organizers and asked if there was a chance for a refund, etc. Shortly thereafter, she came into the room and literally physically fought me for the phone (which I did not give up, though I did hang up and agree to not cancel her trip for the "rest of the night"). She sat down in front of the door (still naked/wrapped in a towel) and refused to let me leave. I contemplated crawling out of the 2nd-story window to just get away from her, but instead I broke down and called her names I'm not proud of and told her that "I don't need you.".

She was initially smarmy and almost "proud" of what she had done. However, after about 45 minutes, she opened the door and went downstairs to get a drink of water and tried to overdose on pain pills (Naproxen) or at least give the impression that she would. Needless to say, I forced her to spit them out and was just about ready to take her to a hospital to get her help. She calmed down...slightly..and we talked for a bit. I grabbed my suitcase and began packing...then took a brief shower and unlocked her phone's pictures, etc. She had convinced this guy to simultaneously take a bath where they shared pictures (no penis shot from him, but shots of what appeared to have him using a fleshlight, etc.), but she sent full nudity and a video of herself masturbating. I was appalled (obviously)...they also talked about what type of sex toys each liked, etc.

I came out of the bathroom and she was asleep on the bed. I continued to pack my things and she woke up and asked me what I was doing. I told her that I was leaving, that I had unlocked her phone and had seen what was said/sent. She begged me to stay and I told her that I would be leaving at 1:00 a.m. (about 40 minutes from that point). I offered to drive her down to her parents' house if she felt the need to be supported (I was genuinely scared she might hurt herself and wanted her to be in a loving environment--just not with me). She was reluctant, but agreed. 

We headed down to her parents house and I dropped her off after talking with her for a bit. I continued on to visit my Mom and we slept apart for the first time in our marriage as I told her that I could not sleep with her as she had already been with someone else that night. 

The next day, I returned to pick her up from her parents and we had a major talk in front of them. I told them what had happened in our marriage and our relationship. We talked for probably 2 hours together and they generally came down heavily on my side of the equation--though they obviously wanted us to stay together. She owned up to a lot of the mistakes that had been made and indicated on the way home that she was now "out of the fog" and wanted to do what it took to save our marriage. 

Since that time, I have not given her phone back and I have closely monitored her use of the internet. I later canceled her trip to Alabama for the convention and we told our MC about the situation (which had evidently escalated tremendously since we had started counseling). I still feel sick each and every day and am having a lot of triggers/flashbacks/negative feelings and confusion. We listed our house for sale (which we needed to do anyway) and I'm still not sure where we stand as a couple moving forward. 

After she found out that I had canceled her trip, she immediately began to get depressed/cry/etc. She had purchased a lot of materials/costumes/accessories for her cosplaying, etc. and they were arriving in the mail. The t-shirt she had designed showed up and she began to cry on that Friday (3 days after the date of discovery--a week ago today). I said that if you hadn't decided to talk about what sex toys you wanted to use with OM, maybe this wouldn't have happened. She became irate and we didn't talk--just as we were about to head to our first counseling session post-discovery. 

That Friday was HARD. She was infuriated with me for canceling the trip without her knowledge and because of how I stated how it was her responsibility for me doing so (agreed--it was not the most "artful" way of putting it). The two of us fought heavily in front of the MC that day and she almost refused to unlock the car doors on the way out to let me go home with her. Of course, it really didn't matter much as we only had gotten about 3 blocks down the road when she said that she had never wanted to hurt someone as badly as she wanted to hurt me at that point (and that I should be happy that she didn't have a gun). I made a taunting "baby cry" noise and she pulled the car over, hit me, told me to get out of the car (which I did), and drove off with a middle finger flashing my way. I was probably about 3-4 hours from home by walking and my cell phone doesn't get service in that area...so I was stranded and felt like I was never going to see my wife again. As I walked...I tried to hold it together, but I felt a degree of disbelief that "this was it". 

I walked for about 45-60 minutes and realized I couldn't get back the way I was headed, so I turned around and started walking a different direction to where I was hoping to get to a public library and maybe contact Uber/Taxi, etc. and try to get home. Just as I was returning to the same spot where this all started, she pulled up with our dog, and asked if I wanted a ride. I got in and the two of us fought on the way home, but I demanded that once we arrived that we would drop the attitudes, sarcasm, etc. and have a serious talk. 

She felt that I had not been receptive to the contrition that she had been demonstrating for the prior couple of days since discovery. She was sick of me "threatening" divorce (which wasn't really a hollow threat--I still plan on contacting a lawyer to at least know my options--though not necessarily with the intent to file as of yet). I told her that my response to her was due to what she did to me. We went back-and-forth, but eventually somewhat shut it down and spent the evening together (she had to unlock everything and replace the battery in the garage door opener as she had removed it--just in case I DID get home I wouldn't have a way inside as she was initially home to look up airline tickets for her trip again). 

We agreed to take the weekend to evaluate the situation. 

Over the weekend, she constantly fought to have me help her go back on the trip. Against what may have been my better judgment, I agreed. Now I know what everyone here is going to say about that, but I honestly viewed this situation as the "least" of our problems in some respects. In essence, the phone and her access to the Internet are far greater concerns to me than a 3-4 day trip. If I can manage/control those elements and avoid the resentment of having to deal with her being denied this trip, then I'm amenable to it. She asked for her phone for the trip and I flatly refused (after a pretty hefty fight and her throwing MY phone out our 2nd story window). I agreed to get her a GoPhone (talk/text only) for security purposes and a camera. 

The rest of the week was tense, but she was so focused on preparing for her trip and we were having so many house showings that we seemed to have our minds elsewhere. We did have 2 meetings with the MC and both were primarily focused on establishing rules of conduct for her on the trip and trying to put my mind at ease (as best it can be). We have another scheduled for Monday where the MC wants us to go over the trip in her presence (and not before). 

I drove my wife to her parents' house late last night and we did not encounter either of them, but we took a short "nap" and then headed to the airport. I gave her a kiss for the first time since the date of discovery (though we did have one "awkward" intimate session in the time since--where I have a bit of regret/guilt about still--I don't know if it was hysterical bonding or not) and she went on her way. She sent me a couple texts letting me know she was ok and had made it safely, but I have not heard anything today (despite being 10:51 p.m. on my birthday--no happy birthday wish, etc.). 

I've been staying with my Mom and quite a few members of my family have come to visit over the past 2 days. Tomorrow, I am going to visit her parents and hopefully it will be a healthy/productive talk. 

I have also been reading a lot about Histrionic Personality Disorder and was curious as to anyone's knowledgeable thoughts on the topic as it might pertain to my wife. 

Regardless...here I am. Still conflicted--we have been reading "Not Just Friends" together (both in audiobook/physical format) and we seem to be making some progress...yet...she's also 1,000 miles away at a convention...we're not sleeping together for the first times in our marriage...she's in the same location as the OM after what has happened... I want to keep the faith, but I've lost ALL trust. 

I guess now I'm just hoping/praying that when she returns, things can start to heal... no asking for the phone...no asking for the Internet... she's done well to this point since the discovery (I've sat beside her whenever she's gone online to ask questions on Facebook/look up information), but she is NOT getting her old phone back. I've told her that her asking for it will trigger me and piss me off... so she knows this. 

I just hope that things can "reset" once we get back together, but I'm scared. She has been saying a lot of the "right" things since the discovery and she has been good about going "cold turkey" with the phone. I just wonder how long it can last and whether our future together is workable. 

Thanks, as always for your support throughout this ordeal.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

My advice remains the same --

Divorce.

Give her the phone back, tell her to GTFO (and that she can go where the Hell ever she wants, including the convention), and file for divorce first thing Monday morning.

She's not going to stop.

ETA: Just finished reading the entire post. I see that she's currently away on the trip. That's fine and all, but you have to understand that -- right now, _right this very moment_ -- she's cheating on you.

As in really, actually, physically cheating on you. 

As in having sex w/ another guy.

Hell, maybe guys.

Seriously, man... wake the f*ck up already.

She's cheating, and if you honestly think otherwise, then YOU. ARE. DELUSIONAL.

Make sure that she comes home to new door locks and divorce papers.

Holy geez...

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sparrow55 (Apr 23, 2016)

Abe Froman said:


> Thank you to all who commented (even some of the more sarcastic comments). Here is where I stand right now:
> 
> 1. We are going to attend an MC session tomorrow afternoon and I am now to the point where I am starting to emotionally "check out". It is not that I don't optimally "wish" that things would work out (I still want that!), but it is that I simply cannot take the animosity, attacks, and emotional beatdowns much longer.
> 
> ...


pathetic


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## sparrow55 (Apr 23, 2016)

Abe Froman said:


> Update on where things stand and what has happened:
> 
> I have done my best to avoid posting on any forums as we have attempted to work through some of the challenges that have been described here and elsewhere. With that said, a great deal of what many have suggested might happen has indeed taken place.
> 
> ...




At this point, I have to ask. Do you have no dignity or shame ? 

She hits you, abuses you, threatens to kill you, insults you...And you still are together and sending her on the trip ? You are the one reading the affair books ?

What kind of lala land are you in?

She even colluded with the MC. You think she could not buy a burner phone or that she could meet her OM(s). Made a mistake reading this stupid thread. I thought NP5 was bad with his deluions. This guy makes him look like a noob.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Divorce. That's all I have to say on this one. She is at a conference with him? You and I both know what they are doing.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

I would hate to be married to someone i couldnt trust. Always wondering " what is she up to now". Good luck. You're going to need it.


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## becareful (Jan 28, 2016)

WTF were you thinking letting her go on that trip? Unreal. You just served up an opportunity for your wife to consummate her EA with the OM. Unfreakingbelievable. 

Just divorce her when she gets back, as neither of you are marriage material. Both of you are children playing house. No boundaries, no enforcement of said boundaries. She doesn't respect you. Why should she? You're weak and unprincipled.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Abe Froman said:


> Over the weekend, she constantly fought to have me help her go back on the trip. Against what may have been my better judgment, I agreed.


If you weren't clear before, you are officially her enabler.


> Now I know what everyone here is going to say about that, but I honestly viewed this situation as the "least" of our problems in some respects. In essence, the phone and her access to the Internet are far greater concerns to me than a 3-4 day trip.


No. Let's have it right. You are conflict avoidant. That's why you let her go. That's why you only posted once she was out there.

You also need to revise your ideas about "'least" of our problems" as together you've ensured "Potenial EA" is now guaranteed PA

EDIT:


> but I have not heard anything today (despite being 10:51 p.m. on my birthday--no happy birthday wish, etc.).


Because she does not give sh!t about you.

Happy birthday


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

If you truly knew what marriage was, you would have left her months ago.

Evidently you like the illusion of being in control. Knock yourself out.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

This is the worst update I have ever read on TAM. 

My friend do you have any respect for yourself ??? 

You are staying at your mother House while your wife is banging a lot of dudes. What is even worse YOU BOOKED HER A TRIP TO GO THERE. 

She is Cheating on you,throwing you out of the car in the middle of nowhere,attacking you,hitting you,abusing you and what else !!!

You are wasting your money on MC. Better pay your lawyer.

Divorce her and dont look back.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

So, she threw a fit and became physically abusive because you caught her cheating YET AGAIN and cancelled the trip she was scheduled to take so that she could finally fvck her long term EA partner. Then she convinces you she was "contrite" for a few days, makes up and agrees to some bullsh!t rules she won't follow anyways, and you book her a trip so she and her OM can fvck without your interference.

Either come back to reality and accept that your wife is a cheating wh0re and you've been allowing yourself to be manipulated by her or just accept and agree to the open marriage you have anyways.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Abe,

She doesn't love you - which is ok - you can't control that.

But you don't respect yourself. And that's on you.





Abe Froman said:


> Update on where things stand and what has happened:
> 
> I have done my best to avoid posting on any forums as we have attempted to work through some of the challenges that have been described here and elsewhere. With that said, a great deal of what many have suggested might happen has indeed taken place.
> 
> ...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> My advice remains the same --
> 
> *Divorce.*
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Abe, I developed a reputation for being known as Mr Reconciliation on TAM. 

But, dash it all, mate, I have to say I agree with Gus.

Divorce seems the only sensible way forward at this point.

Your wife is probably mentally deranged to some extent. All the Cosplay stuff and her fantasy of having it off with other men whilst her husband is only feet away? 

That is so disrespectful. But she is disrespectful of herself as well as you.

You deserve better. You need better.

The 180 might help save your sanity.

So sorry about your situation.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

Second opinions? You ask for second opinions right? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HV1JzxhDcY

You serious? WTF? crying and fighting to go to this trip and be sexy at a comic con...a PERFECT place for an EA to become a PA.

This week, hear me. THIS WEEK you file for divorce. This week you also get a TEMP RO. She threatened your life and abuses you.... Bro, dude... PADRE! you dont wait and see anymore. YOU RUN. YOU DO IT NOW, she thinks she has the upper hand, imagine how her fantasy world shatters when she is served with a RO, and all her **** is in a storage unit and a key to it is at her parents. You file for divorce and you get this scum, out of your life. You thik you love her, but man she is un loveable. You cant love HER, you loved the way she once made you feel, but now she makes you miserable. Your live dies NOW... That is the healthy path. Any other rationalization you have to keep at this is like what all others say. ITS A DELUSION.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

This is why your wife going to any of these events is such a bad idea. Hundreds of nerdy male virgins and silly girls looking for whatever they are looking for.

Busted! 12 Nerds Caught Staring at Cosplay Girls - CollegeHumor Post


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## Palodyne (Mar 3, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> This is why your wife going to any of these events is such a bad idea. Hundreds of nerdy male virgins and silly girls looking for whatever they are looking for.
> 
> Busted! 12 Nerds Caught Staring at Cosplay Girls - CollegeHumor Post


 I have never went to anything like that before. But after seeing what women dress like there I would probably be like this.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRJWnwxe8Iw LOL.

But seriously, OP letting your wife treat you in this manner is unbelievable. This woman is manipulative and when that doesn't work she is abusive. DO NOT accept her behavior. I am in full agreement with the others. You need to see a lawyer, file for divorce, and get an RO against her. She obviously has no problem doing physical harm to you to get her way. That is unacceptable.

You are going to have to face this. She is having sex this weekend with her other man. You know this is true. You saw the texts about what sex toys they want to use, and the masturbation videos. It can only get worse from here if you don't deal with this. Or you can continue to fight and argue with her, and maybe one night when she gets mad enough to do harm to you, she will be close enough to a hammer or knife to really let you have it. Don't take that chance. File, get the RO, and move on.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

IF YOU DON'T RESPECT YOURSELF THEN WHO WILL? It is clear that your wife has
no respect for you whatsoever and clearly thinks you are a fool who is quite easy
to manipulate.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

bryanp said:


> *IF YOU DON'T RESPECT YOURSELF THEN WHO WILL?* It is clear that your wife has
> no respect for you whatsoever and clearly thinks you are a fool who is quite easy
> to manipulate.


You should make that into your signature.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

If your wife cannot respect herself how on earth can she respect you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## river rat (Jan 20, 2012)

Oh, Abe. Man, do I feel for you. I understand how hard it is to sign the death certificate on a marriage. It took me years to come to that point. But in the final analysis, love and trust are so closely intertwined, that one can't survive without the other. I think you're there.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

There's a part of you that is trying to make you stay when it's not possible for you to stay.

Are you afraid of being alone? Are you afraid of making a mistake? Are you afraid of being unloved by her?

Whatever it is, you need to confront it in yourself head on and deal with it.

Because this marriage ended a long time ago, or never was to begin with. And you know that.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

Come on man, its monday please update that you a, have seen a lawyer, or B, you have an appointment to see one. And C, YOU HAVE GONE TO THE POLICE AND FILED A RO! 

Please dont let us down, and MOST IMPORTANTLY YOURSELF.


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