# Ok, I am ready to confront! Advice needed ASAP pleeeeease.....



## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

My most recent thread is at:

talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/53127-impossible-keep-quiet-wait-2.html

and here is my most recent post on that thread. I need advice quick. Please don't be diverted from the issue, the issue is not particularly porn. The real issue is that I have been in a kind of limbo since June 2011. And detaching from June 2012. And that a condition of our relationship was that he would not lie to me ever again. He agreed and promised he never would. I have had many triggers, much upset, much heavy lifting, while he has not given me what I needed throughout.

A bit of background: June last year, 2011, was when he became angry and defensive and stopped discussing openly with me, where I had hit a certain point on the 'subject'. DD was only May 2011! So the last year + has been hell! But please understand, I thought this was the man of my life, my soul mate. And he has issues. Without the infidelity I could easily and happily cope with the issues. With the infidelity, it makes them impossible and compounds them 10 fold. 

June this year he made a decision to.not discuss it at all any longer. He didn't offer any amnesty of 'get anything you want out the way now because come June the talking is over' NO, he just told me June it would be never discussed again, and if I tried to discuss before June it it was the same anyway. Anger, refusals, and fall outs. So since June, I have been detaching in order to make my break as pain-free as possible for me for when I can't be bothered going on any longer. 

I desperately need advice on the confrontation.

Post:



Ok....another bloody update! 


yargh!


The subject of his 500 meg of data all being used up came up. He got a txt while I was with him from his mobile contract provider. I asked him what he been using it on. He said watching videos and stuff. I raised my eyebrows and asked what videos. He said news and stuff. Nb. He is a news junkie BTW. Reads up on it every morn, every day. BUT....little does he know, I know different. His mobile contract goes from 2nd of each month. He is not even half way thru month. So...I ask him what he has been watching....does he watch porn? He says no, he cannot watch it due to block on his phone by network provider. To change it he has to have a credit card or go down to the store, he can only watch on WiFi. I ask him 'so do u watch porn with WiFi?' he says no. He 'hasn't watched porn since I asked him not to watch on my computer in August 2010'. He said he hasn't watched any since then! What a liar! I asked him specifically, have u watched it on my WiFi. He said no. I asked him really? He said no. I asked him did he watch it when I went out yesterday? He said no! And then proceeded with the 'not since u asked me not to. Not watched any since then.' Liar! Total and outright liar!

So, what do I do now? 

I asked him also if he taps in to WiFi at home anywhere, he says no. There4, if he does not, and it is a big task to change on his service provider for watching 18 + stuff, where was he watching it at 6-7am on those mornings I know he did? And the afternoons I know he was? And the evenings? And I am almost positive we were not together, that he was not at my house. So, where was he? 

I want to confront him tomorrow. Neither of our kids will be around, and I have enough to confront him on I feel. Firstly, he was told never ever to lie to me again. He was adamant he would not. After the pack of lies I have been told, and the fact I take honesty and trust very seriously, the fact he has just outright lied is a SERIOUS issue. That is a deal breaker. There4 to confront him tomorrow, he will not be expecting me to know of his high porn usage. 

I will tell him I know he looked at it as soon as I left for a few hours yesterday. I can explain that away on my WiFi if necessary. I can pretend I can see a log. Though I will not tell him how I know. Not unless I absolutely have to. And even then it will only be because he walking out the door and to bring him back to the conversation again.

And then when he admits to that, but that is the only thing he admits to (which it will be), then I will have to give him the times and dates he was looking at it, and see what he says. And indeed, where was he? How was he viewing it at home if he has no access through WiFi and no access through service provider?

The issue is, he lies to me, and he is accessing it somewhere when he should be at home. Was he at home? I can't imagine he was anywhere else, but if he wasn't, where was he? I want to surprise him, but I also want to be clever about it. But I also believe to look at it that frequently, and the times he was, he would have to have been at home. But then again, I don't know how he could have accessed it at home. I just need him to fess up! 

...so, should I confront him now? Or should I wait and see if I can get more on him? If I get more on him I need a keylogger for his phone. That will be easy cos I will demand his phone and then go off and look in it for however long I need. But I will have to subscribe and download exactly what I need there and then. And then install it. There4 I will need to know exactly what, and how to do it, and then download on his phone without him knowing. All over the pretense of me wanting to 'look through his phone'. And money tho...wasted. Especially if I am ditching him.

If I confront tomorrow, and he doesn't win me over, I will save myself the expense of the keylogger and just ditch him.

What are your thoughts on confronting now? How does it look to you? I know I should ditch him so I can do without black and white advice, no offense intended, my problem is I need to have the conviction to stay ditched. And so advice in these developments is welcome.

Please post here, and I am also going to put a new thread for this post, as I really need as much input and info before 4pm tomorrow as possible. That is his DD! 

At least I hope so. I so do not want him to worm his way out of this one. It is very difficult tho when it is who u thought was the love of your life....as I am sure every single one of you know.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Remains I'm trying to make sense of your thread so correct me if I'm wrong.

1) Your issue isn't exactly the porn but the fact he lies to you when you had an agreement that there will be total transparency
2) you mention that he has to change his contract with his service provider to watch this stuff, but you don't think he has?
3)If he said he's watching videos and stuff, that could mean youtube as well and they do consume a lot of data

Unless you're certain that he's changed his contract to allow him to view 18+ content and to access your WIFI, I would hold off confronting for a bit.

P/S I share your scepticism that he's gone cold turkey over the porn, but the evidence doesn't have a smoking gun (unless I'm wrong there again).


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Remains, you may catch him in yet another lie. Or, you may not.

The point is now that he has given up on reconciling. He is not open with you emotionally, period. This might be because he's hiding something. Or, it just might be, it's not something he is choosing to do, with you. 

He drew a bright line in the sand when he said it could no longer be discussed. He is basically putting a deadline on your healing. 

At some point it seems to me, there is nothing to 'confront.' There is only, 'I have sadly come to realize that you do not want to be what I need in a spouse; you cannot be fully open to me. Maybe you think you are being open, but no matter how we try to reach consensus on what that means, it isn't what I need. You are my love, but you are not showing me the love that I need.'


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Complexity, 1. Yes. 2. No. It is effort to remove the 18+ blocker but he can watch on WiFi. He has no WiFi at his house. I have evidence of 13 times in 12 days, from 11th July, all while at 'home', his house. He has a daughter, and I have kids so when we can't be together it is for those reasons. The times of searching are from 6-7 am (that is on a work day, he wakes for work at 6.30am at his), 5pm, 7pm, 9pm, all when we are not together. And I know he has not lifted the blocker. I checked last night. So how was he watching it on his phone at his house? (my initial post in 1st thread, link above, puts in more detail. Another long.post tho. I seem incapable of summarising well, or at all!) 3. Yes, he uses a lot of data. He is always on his phone looking at news, videos etc. But I know for a fact, he has watched excessive porn the last few wks. I can view anything he has to search on Google. Not each web page, just the search. I went out to take my children to their holiday camp yesterday. Within 3 mins of me leaving the house he was searching porn web sites. And yet he has 'never looked at any since I asked him not to on my computer'. That was August 24th 2010.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

BTW Complexity, with regards to 2. those 13 times, he spends half his week at my house so 12 days in reality is only 6 or less. I will put the detail in tomorrow if it is of use or interest.

I heartlife, I have read over your post quickly, it came up after I replied to Complexity, it is very late now over here, stupidly late, but I agree wholeheartedly.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

He is just lying, sorry. What do you want? He has already proven that he will lie to your face and do whatever he wants when you are out. That's the issue, not the porn. Don't confront him about it. Just tell him you know. Period. He sounds like he will minimize whatever you find anyway.....

Sorry you are going through this. You deserve better.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> He is just lying, sorry. What do you want? He has already proven that he will lie to your face and do whatever he wants when you are out. That's the issue, not the porn. Don't confront him about it. Just tell him you know. Period. He sounds like he will minimize whatever you find anyway.....
> 
> Sorry you are going through this. You deserve better.


Oh absolutely! The issue is nothing to do with the porn and completely about the outright lying. How can there be trust when bare faced lies are told. 

I have always been very clear about where I stand on lying. Very. I have been clear also that any more lies following his infidelity and the hell that surrounded that would be a dealbreaker. I have known he lied about lots of issues in that, they didn't make sense. The pieces did not fit. And I have struggled to come to terms with that...I had no real proof, only what my head and my gut were telling me. And although I have known I had to leave, it has been so difficult to. The love he shows me is just wonderful, however I have not felt it really to any great depth. Being with him is great, so long as all is hunky dory and I have no issues I need or want to discuss. I have just been waiting for that dealbreaker to arrive. And upping the ante these last couple of weeks on the snoop war! Coming accross his Google search history was a magic find!

I want to confront though! I need to know how he was watching porn at the times he was not with me. And there are many. He has no way of accessing it at his house...so where was he? 

Yes he will minimise everything, however, if it is a minimal issue, why would he feel the need to lie about it?


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

OK I have a clearer picture now. In that case you can confront when you feel like.

Out of curiosity though, was his porn use associated to his affair or is this something you just object to in general (I know this isn't about the porn)


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Remains said:


> I want to confront though! *I need to know how he was watching porn at the times he was not with me. *And there are many. He has no way of accessing it at his house...so where was he?
> 
> Yes he will minimise everything, however, if it is a minimal issue, why would he feel the need to lie about it?


Remains~

You can confront if you want to, but may I make a suggestion? You say you "need to know how he is watching porn when he is not with me" and yet you know he is a liar. So you are going to ask a person whom you know is a liar to tell you...what? The truth? Doesn't that seem foolish? :scratchhead:

And frankly, why do you need to know "how" he does it? What do you care? See the problem here is plain and simple: 

You can not control him and make him stop. Period. 

He wants to watch porn. You are not his police officer or his mommy, so you can't make him stop. He is perfectly aware that the cost of lying to you is losing you, and he made the decision to lie and watch porn anyway! 

So confront if you want, but don't expect the truth out of, not only a known liar, but someone who has blatantly demonstrated he is a CHRONIC liar! Expect...you tell me... "another lie"! Right!  

I personally suggest you print out the Google searches with the dates and times, keep the original in a safe place and another stored on a harddrive safely somewhere, and you throw down the papers and say, "I will no longer tolerate being treated with such disrespect and dishonesty. You knew the cost of both watching porn and lying to me, and here is the proof you did both. I'm tired of your lies and I'm tire of YOU. Goodbye and DO NOT contact me again." Then change your cell phone, your email, unfriend him on Facebook and carry on with your life and don't look back. 

Seriously.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Complexity said:


> OK I have a clearer picture now. In that case you can confront when you feel like.
> 
> Out of curiosity though, was his porn use associated to his affair or is this something you just object to in general (I know this isn't about the porn)


I am just worried that if he gives me a plausible or wishy washy answer then I will accept he 'needed' to lie. On the other hand, if I don't put my foot down now, he will know that I don't mean my stance on lying to me, and he can do it with no consequence.

My worry is, is this too soon to confront? The porn can be, most likely, easily explained and weasled out of. Right now I am adamant that when I confront, that will be it. Over. But he is very good! One of the best! In many ways. He can talk a very good talk. He is also immensely loveable. No way would I put up with stuff I have from anybody else. He just seems to have won me round every time! I have been a total sucker for him. And a total idiot. 

I want to get spyware for his phone, so I can see if he still has contact with AP or anyone/anything else he shouldn't. But then if lying is a dealbreaker, spying on his phone is a pointless waste of money. I just don't want to waste anymore heartache and time over this man. And when I leave, I want to have the conviction to stay gone. I am worried this porn issue won't be enough for me.

His porn use was not associated with A as such. But he was neglectful throughout, understandably so, and porn was also part of that. When I found it in 2010, the issue was, it was on my NEW computer, I found out after coming out of hospital, he was at my house preparing dinner, peparing for looking after me, he went home to prepare while I had my operation and when I got out, earlier than expected, and texted him, he couldn't leave the house for at least 20mins. So I had to wait longer to see him when I needed him, because he used time 1st on porn, and then pepared dinner etc after porn! I found he had been consistently watching it for some time. On my computer!

I was also annoyed as he had not cleared files. My son could easily find that stuff on my computer. 

And no, I don't like porn. If it was up to me it would not exist. I think it has a corrupting influence in the mind. But do I understand and accept it? Yes. Just about.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> Remains~
> 
> You can confront if you want to, but may I make a suggestion? You say you "need to know how he is watching porn when he is not with me" and yet you know he is a liar. So you are going to ask a person whom you know is a liar to tell you...what? The truth? Doesn't that seem foolish? :scratchhead:
> 
> ...


I know I will be confronting a liar, and I don't for 1 minute think I will get a totally honest response or answer, however liars can easily give the game away, can stutter and falter. They can also be blindsided. And he most likely will. Unless of course I gave the game away last night. But I acted very 'normal' after he told me his big fat lie, and that is not like me! At all! If I confront him I will be watching him very carefully. Watching what he does when he lies. 

I need to know how he watches it because he does not have a computer. He has a phone, his mini computer. He watches it while not with me, and when he is supposed to be at home with his daughter. His network provider has a 18+ block on, I know it is still there, and so he cannot watch it on his mobile internet. I had verified this also. He can only watch it on WiFi. 

SO...HOW IS HE WATCHING IT? Is he at someone else's house? Has his daughter gone to one of her friends for a sleepover? If that is so, and he is at someone else's house...at 10.42pm, 9.21pm, 6.15, 6.20 am before going to work, then who's house is he at? That is what I want to know...what excuse will he give for being able to access it at 'home' when he patently and obviously cannot?

I have never ever told him he cannot watch porn. I have only asked him not to on my computer. I don't police him, or expect to. I am very open, open about porn, I don't like it, I find it distasteful, but I have watched it before. I have even told him so when he asked what I am up to. I am honest. I expect honesty in return and make no bones about it. 

I am concerned regarding his excessive porn use over the last month. I am concerned about how he has accessed it due to the reasons above. If he had lifted his 18 blocker off his phone there would be no concern. But he has not. So, how has he accessed it? Porn in itself is not a dealbreaker! Lying is.

And I like your suggestion at the end...though I plan something slightly more devious. I hope to get answers from him but if I show him all I have and how I have it he will fit all answers around that. I have made that mistake far too many times. I also expect lies too, as he will not know what I know or how, so that I can see his behaviour when he lies...that should hopefully confirm other things to me too I hope. So, the plan is, to either hold off confronting and put spyware on his phone so I can get more evidence of what, how, when, who. Or just forget that expense and confront sooner. When he has painted my newly plastered wall  . I will tell him I know he has watched porn, and he will have to tell me when and how. And he won't be leaving til he does. Hopefully then I may get some answers...even if it is only his patterns of behaviour when he lies. That will most likely be it. But you never know....

I am extremely tempted to install stuff on his phone though. I want to know if he is still in touch with his ex, his AP.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

I have not keep up with the situation, but how do you know he was watching porn at those hours if you don't have spyware on his phone?


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

costa200 said:


> I have not keep up with the situation, but how do you know he was watching porn at those hours if you don't have spyware on his phone?


I have access to his googlemail account. A long time ago I enabled 'web history' on it, but it didn't seem to log much. It seemed to only log Google map searches which were few and far between. I stopped looking. The other day I saw on my Google page I was logged on to his email and panicked, logged off. Then it occurred to me that it may have been logging my web searches. I checked it and all his searches were on there since June 7th! It doesn't log all pages visited, only searches. And of course he has to search for porn as he doesn't have saved links, deleted the porn history, and so has to search each time. Caught! 

And instead of saying yeah i've watched a bit of porn he says No, not since you asked me not to on your computer! Tw*t!


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

Remains said:


> I want to get spyware for his phone, so I can see if he still has contact with AP or anyone/anything else he shouldn't. But then if lying is a dealbreaker, spying on his phone is a pointless waste of money. I just don't want to waste anymore heartache and time over this man. And when I leave, I want to have the conviction to stay gone. I am worried this porn issue won't be enough for me.


remains, i am just coming to your story, but my first take was along the lines of iheartlife -- the fact that you've been forbidden to ask questions or talk about this situation speaks volumes, and i think you already have a platform there for a strong statement about your willingness to go forward (or not).

with regard to confronting about the specifics, i think your suspicions about the porn watching and lying are exactly right and i wish that you had some harder evidence. i'm thinking about what you've said about his ability to win you over by weaseling, which makes me feel cautious for you.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Remains........I couldn't find out how my H was printing shipping labels when my PC was the only one that had a printer in the house - and it was off and passworded.

What did he do? Disconnected it from my desk while I was out, installed it on his PC, printed whatever he wanted and then hooked it all back up in the study before I got home. So he could continue the silent treatment without having to ask for help from me.

I suspect your H has found a way to circumvent whatever controls you think are in place. You are spending so much time and energy trying to have a good reason to leave. Waiting for that one last bit of proof to set you free.

But you can be free now. You can stop the craziness and realize, he will find a way. Isn't that enough to know?

Sorry you are having to stress like this. I am doing the same thing and getting tough love here on TAM this time. Please take care of yourself.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

:iagree: :iagree: 

LostWifeCrushed has hit the nail on the head. You are driving yourself crazy to find out "how" he does it, and that's somewhat irrelevant. He does it and you will not tolerate dishonesty. 

"Nuff said.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Remains said:


> I am just worried that if he gives me a plausible or wishy washy answer then I will accept he 'needed' to lie. On the other hand, if I don't put my foot down now, he will know that I don't mean my stance on lying to me, and he can do it with no consequence.
> 
> My worry is, is this too soon to confront? The porn can be, most likely, easily explained and weaselled out of. Right now I am adamant that when I confront, that will be it. Over. But he is very good! One of the best! In many ways. He can talk a very good talk. He is also immensely loveable. No way would I put up with stuff I have from anybody else. He just seems to have won me round every time! I have been a total sucker for him. And a total idiot.
> 
> ...


OK I understand your dilemma. Then again, is it wise to remain with someone that's a master deceiver?. You know in your heart that he can weasel out of any situation and your infatuation with him seems to make you "get over it". I guess we train others how to treat us and he will only get more inventive with his stories and excuses. I just get the sense that your relationship is a constant cat/mouse struggle.

I'm not entirely sure that you're ready to leave him Remains nor am I frankly in a position to tell you do so. I can see that you dearly love this man but no one wants be Sherlock Holmes with their partner for the rest of their lives. Regarding the spy software, one member tried it here and it ended sending alert messages to his WS. All these spy software programmes aren't exactly legal so they're just used for "comedic" purposes, at least the commercial ones. 

I don't know what else to say but to recommend you have a heart to heart discussion with him as to where your relationship is going. If he is cheating and has an ounce of honesty, he'll be compassionate enough to let you go. 

I wish you the best Remains.


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

He could be using any neighbors Internet that isnt password protected. Extremely easy to do.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

MrsOldNews said:


> He could be using any neighbors Internet that isnt password protected. Extremely easy to do.


Why didn't I think of that???

He can pull up software on the computer that detects wireless networks, and if they aren't passworded (or maybe he easily guessed one) bingo, he's on the Internet.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

MrsOldNews said:


> He could be using any neighbors Internet that isnt password protected. Extremely easy to do.


The only way that could happen is through BT Open Zone. Most wireless networks are automatically password protected for security reasons. One guy was recently arrested for viewing child pornography. In the end, it turned out his neighbour was using his wireless network to view the stuff. Remains check your credit card statement and see if any payments were made to BT Open Zone. It's a pay-as-you-go service.

P/s the usage date wouldn't go to his network anyway, it would go the owner's.


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

Complexity said:


> The only way that could happen is through BT Open Zone. Most wireless networks are automatically password protected for security reasons. One guy was recently arrested for viewing child pornography. In the end, it turned out his neighbour was using his wireless network to view the stuff. Remains check your credit card statement and see if any payments were made to BT Open Zone. It's a pay-as-you-go service.
> 
> P/s the usage date wouldn't go to his network anyway, it would go the owner's.


I though most weren't pw protected unless you do it. There are three out of the 7 wireless networks I pick up by my house that aren't pw protected. It takes a few seconds to connect. The one that aren't pw protected usually aren't named either so it's easier to pick them out to use. I have a personal hotspot on my phone that I use on my laptop but sometimes when my phone is dead I use the neighbors Internet.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Perhaps you may be right. It's just that most routers can't be accessed without the password that comes with them. If you plug it and go, it'll automatically ask for a password to let you access the network. Maybe the older models will allow you to, but I just tried it now, no dice. Who knows anyway, it's a possibility.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Remains......did you say he can only watch it by wifi? You have to know this is soooooooo easy to do.

Don't keep fixating on the 18+ ISP block. It's pretty easy to get another account. Its only like 20 bux a month. You keep spinning around about HOW. Just think about it......there are like a gazillion ways.

He's an old pro at this and knows you are only looking at his KNOWN accounts.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

When we first moved in, we used our neighbors wifi (with permission). No password. It has nothing to do with the router, only the settings you set up on the router. ANY router can be set to log on without a password.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

MrsOldNews said:


> He could be using any neighbors Internet that isnt password protected. Extremely easy to do.


I thought of that too. I asked him the other night when I was at his house, I also verified myself the night before as he was sleeping that there was not a WiFi connection he could tap into. There was not. And when I asked him about it, the same night I first asked him about watching porn, he confirmed there was no WiFi....however....that was actually not the case. Which is why the searches had stopped about 2 weeks ago. See below...


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Thanks for your replies all. And thankyou for the advice. You are all correct in what you say and suggest. 

Complexity you are correct in that it seems to be a constant cat & mouse struggle, though maybe that is all on my part, my need to talk and his refusal. My thinking I can catch him out. Which goes on to the Sherlock Holmes in me, my wish to not be deceived again, my snooping and prying to see if there is anything he hides from me, to catch him out...because I do not really trust him. But he has created the mistrust, and he is not doing the necessary work to rebuild it. And so the mistrust is never, or rarely, eased. And yes, I love this man dearly. Desperately want it to work out with him, we are great together, have so much fun (in between the fall outs), he is everything I have ever wanted in a man. If only this one issue of trust wasn't such a major issue. 

Lostwifecrushed, that is exactly it. I am waiting for the kick up my a$$ to set me free. 

So....I cannot keep my mouth shut! The subject kind of came up again last night. So I figured I may as well confront now. It is a good a time as any.

I asked him again about the porn. Same answer. I asked him about watching it at my house, same answer. I asked him about watching it at mine when I was out for 3 hours taking my kids to their holiday, same answer. I said I knew he had watched it. He still blank denied. I said I knew and he needs to be straight with me. Still denied. He said he had never ever looked in it on his phone. Never! (he got his new phone last July). 

So I took his phone and started typing in the 2 searches I knew he did. They came up on predictive before finishing the word. I told him I knew he was accessing it within 3 minutes of me leaving the house on Sunday. He was desperate to watch. So much so that I did not get the usual loving goodbye, I got a swift goodbye, the door closing, no wave from the window. I brought up when I was in hospital 2010. If he is looking outside the relationship it is detrimental. If it affecting his loving of me, it is detrimental. So he was pacing, he was accusing me of everything he could, lecturing him, policing him, I am not his mum, I am a nag, I won't allow him any freedom, I won't do this, won't do that. All designed to put the problem back on to me and not address the real issue of his lying or answer when and how. I would not take the bait. I am his lover, his partner, not his mum. His mum has no interest in his lies, his watching porn. I have invested in him, I should be able to trust him. Totally. He should be honest with me. Totally. If he was doing nothing wrong, why hide it? I have never told him he cannot watch porn. Never. Porn is not a dealbreaker. Lying is. (I told him that last bit also before confronting him, he still adamantly denied watching. I told him several times that lying to me is a dealbreaker. He still lied.)

So, it turns out he only knew he could access porn on WiFi after I told him! I found my 13 year old son accessing it on his phone, circumventing the block I put on the internet provider and accessing it through my WiFi. I put parental controls on his phone. And so my partner found an unprotected WiFi connection from his neighbour. Students. And has been watching it since then. That must be at least for 6 months. And the looking was very regular. It seems every morning and every afternoon and every evening he was not with me. That is excessive IMO. That is bordering on addiction. And only a few times at my house. Barely at all, but then he would not have the opportunity. Those neighbours moved a few weeks ago which is why the searches stopped. The new people are password protected. Which will also be why he was so desperate to see me go on Sunday, no loving, just 'when r u going, u need to get going, no I won't come with you, and a very swift 'bye' and swift door closing. Desperate to get his fix he had been denied of for the last 2-3 weeks.

So we argued, he refused to talk, only threw accusations at me. Total refusal to discuss like 2 adults. I was happy when he told me. He told me what I didn't know, how long he had been searching it. I would have discussed. And probably not ditched him for lying too! That was NOT in my plan. But he just paced angrily. Accused. Walked out.

So that is where I am now. I am telling myself not to contact him. He lied so easily and so fully. Even when questions I was asking would be leading, like I knew something, he didn't come clean. Only when evidence produced did he come ,clean. There4 I know he continues to lie easily. I know if I get back with him I will be more uneasy than before. And yet here I am having to remind myself, TELL myself, not to contact him. We have no future. I know that. If I let this go I have no leg to stand on with regards to my requirements and needs. I would forever be untrusting of him, disbelieving, and snooping. And yet I want him back. This is so crap!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Yesterday after work he asked if I wanted to go out for a drink with him. I refused at 1st, I don't want idle chit chat. And then I accepted, told him I would come but we will use the opportunity to talk. And he had better talk! 

So, we talked. Had a really good talk. It was good. I softened. And then I remembered my continuing issue with him, the nagging doubt. The continual gut feeling. The issue that causes him to refuse to discuss 'it' with me. I have always believed he has not given me the full truth on his A with his ex. I think he slept with her more times than he admitted, and the last time being much later than admitted, or slept with someone else, or continued to text her in order to set up meetings but she refused to sleep with him and he continued to fish. At one point I was so utterly positive he slept with her again I would have laid my life on the line. 

I have almost believed him about the number of times over the last 6 months, but every time I have brought up that there is something else he refuses to tell me, he accuses me of thinking there are more than the 4 occasions he tells me about. I say it is not necessarily that, I don't know what it is, but I know there is something. He bangs on about me thinking more than 4 times or someone else, when I just bring up 'something' he is not being straight with me about, the situation, the relationship, his wanting more, whatever. But he brings it back to that every time. And so I am suspicious of that. 

He also tells me he needs me to just believe him, and if I don't believe him then we r over. And that I should just go. I have told him point blank I don't believe him. We were not over. He did not tell me to go. 

So, I brought it up again last night in our talk. As soon as I did he did a big swallow, that one with the big lump in his throat, and then he went dark and started turning on to me. Exactly as he did with the porn question when I pushed for the truth. I told him I know he is lying, begged him to tell me. He nearly did I think. Went quiet. Thoughtful. But he did not.

Last night we had the most amazing sex, twice, again this morning. And then I called him to ask him of a number. I saw it last night when he was asleep. It transpired it was nothing, but he proceeded to go completely off the deep end that I was asking him! Told me I ruined the day.

I have had enough. Told him as much. Told him if I am going to question him, snoop, after he makes me uneasy, lies to me, causes the need in me, he needs to accept it. Or he can fu*k off! Told him how dare he, the audacity of being angry with me after 3 days of lies from him! He ruined our day. Not me. I was very very angry. As soon as he got my anger he immediately came down from his stance of anger and blame and apologised. I told him he can f off anyway. I ignored his calls.

He came to mine on his lunchbreak. I was angry, didn't entertain him...though not for long. We had sex again. I just cannot resist him! 

And then I thought oh no...lay down rules now. While you have the upper hand in the situation. There is another issue I want to ask him of. A snoop I cannot access. And I want him to show me so I can see for myself. I told him I have other stuff I want to ask him at some point soon. He said ok. Then I remembered the lying patterns of last night. My heart sank. I know I will never get the truth on that. I know he will never tell me. 

So I told him so. And told him I don't want to be with him anymore. I can't do it any longer. I can't be bothered fighting for everything I need any longer.

Let's see how long I can keep this one up for! I will take bets. The lowest odds will be on me seeing him this evening.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I don't understand, I have left 2 updates, over a couple of days, venting, rambling, upset, confused, knowing what to do but not, wanting advice on a situation, thoughts, confirmation, and yet no replies. Can anyone explain? 
Am I being paranoid or is my story dull/not require an answer/do I sound like I don't need any input whatsoever? I just don't get it. 
Enlighten me!


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Your story isn't dull, and I've read every word. But he has not changed, your situation has not changed. You are still trying to get him to admit something that you apparently already know. Are you hoping that someone can think of a way to trap him in the lie? Unfortunately, on this forum, more than one cheater has been confronted with _video_ and _audio_ evidence of cheating and scoffed that the evidence was doctored. The answer with such people is to stop wasting your breath.



> He also tells me he needs me to just believe him, and if I don't believe him then we r over. And that I should just go. I have told him point blank I don't believe him. We were not over. He did not tell me to go.


The two of you appear to be in a cold war standoff. Who is going to blink first?

If it were me, I would blink. Because other than the sex, you don't write of any warmth or affection coming from him to you. Or should I say, the honesty isn't just about this, there seems to be no openness or communication about anything, as if you were roommates.

I could not live with that. I would go to a lawyer, get the advice I needed on dividing assets, etc., I'd find a cheap place to rent, I'd move money from the joint checking, and then I'd leave.


I can't speak for anyone else, but I've said my piece on page 1 of your thread. I stand by the advice I gave before.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Your story isn't being ignored - I'm honestly not sure what to suggest to you that you aren't already doing.

If the issue isn't him watching porn, but lying about it - have you explored reasons why people lie in such situations?
Is it?

- embarrassment out of fear of judgement ? - could it be the particular porn type he likes?

- is he super private and doesn't reveal anything to others?


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Same. You're in limbo Remains, I'm not sure what else to say. 

It perhaps doesn't help being intimate with him if you're trying to convey anger at his deceit. You're sending mixed signals that way. So far he's faced no consequences for his actions.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> Your story isn't dull, and I've read every word. But he has not changed, your situation has not changed. You are still trying to get him to admit something that you apparently already know. Are you hoping that someone can think of a way to trap him in the lie? Unfortunately, on this forum, more than one cheater has been confronted with _video_ and _audio_ evidence of cheating and scoffed that the evidence was doctored. The answer with such people is to stop wasting your breath.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks iheartlife. And I appreciate your honest words. Yes I think that thought has crossed my mind also...I get the advice, and yet the situation continues. And so as a reply, it is difficult to write anything else I guess. Because nothing has changed. I just stay in this limbo of knowing, hoping it were not true, the only truth I know is the facts don't make sense, his answers don't make sense, nothing is definitive just that is doesn't make sense. The truth screams at me from my gut. But I remain here. In limbo. The only thing you are wrong on is the love and affection. He shows me great love. Huge amounts of love. And care...in every way except the need to talk and the need for the truth that I feel I know but he tells me I am wrong on. As I have said, he is my perfect man. Everything I have ever wanted. Warm, loving, caring, funny, so very very helpful, he cooks for me, does all those things that a woman wants helping wise that makes her feel loved, part of a team, and thus the love returned is huge. His love I believe is now sincere. That is what keeps me here. I can't see me ever finding another man who has all those qualities, makes me laugh as much, is loving to me in so many ways. But if it is now sincere, what does the past tell me about my future? And the need for the truth is so much more than just that. The need is about knowing. Knowing why I am here with him, and why he is. Is he here only because she didn't want him back? And is she the one he most desires? I don't want to be his 2nd best. And if he still cannot tell me the truth, does that mean that his liasons or his feelings are not dead and buried? I think it is his feelings that are not. And I won't be 2nd best.

And you are right, he isn't very open. I try to communicate. To get him to open up takes effort, and I have given that effort. I have given it when he does not deserve it. He has his issues, and being open and upfront is one of them. I could happily live with that, but after his past performance, that makes it difficult to believe that as soon as an issue arises, or a temptation, that he will talk with me. I know he will not. And I don't know what he would do in the face of that. He is far too risky.

He is pretty much transparent with me now. I think that part of his life is over now. He even came back in Nov last year with my name tattooed on his arm. But I cannot continue in the not knowing. Not having the truth. I find myself in limbo.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Your story isn't being ignored - I'm honestly not sure what to suggest to you that you aren't already doing.
> 
> If the issue isn't him watching porn, but lying about it - have you explored reasons why people lie in such situations?
> Is it?
> ...


Thankyou Shaggy.

I was worried about that lie not being enough for me to ditch him for that very reason. That it is easily explainable by the fact that it is something hidden through fear, embarrassment. But I pushed for that truth, I really did. My questions became leading upon not getting it. Almost obvious I knew something. He continued to deny. Only when the evidence slapped in his face did he come clean. And yet I have never had a problem with porn, at least not as far as he is concerned. I have asked him not to watch it on my computer, it was new, my kids used it, and I have told him I was watching it myself when he asked what I was up to once a couple of years ago. He had no reason to lie to the n'th degree. 

I have seen how convincing he lies, and his behaviour pattern. That now convinces me further on my gut feeling I have written about above, that he is hiding the reality of the situation of his A, how he feels about her, or the number of times, that the final time was not that at all and it was actually much later. And there are a few big things, red flags, that point to other times.

And yes, he is private on 1 level, on any deep level he is private. He does not like to show certain weakness...though we are all like that to some degree.

The porn he watches, I don't know. I don't believe it is anything too gross and out there.



tacoma said:


> Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry Tacoma, I am not the quickest man on the field. I don't get what you mean or what you are getting at. Please explain


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

Men typically look at porn to enhance the process of masterbation, if he's spending time on porn sites then he's most likely spending that time masterbating. So, the larger question is, are you ok with him spending that much time masterbating... Without you?

On the issue of lying or being a liar, people tend to lie when a question is deeply personal, especially if the person feels badly about the activity, maybe that should be explored a little more. Does he lie about other aspect of his life?

Also, since we are talking about "porn", would you be ok if he simply read porn to enhance masterbation? Something like the book '50 Shades of Grey', a pornagraphic book now read by millions of women. Would that make you a little more comfortable?

I'm asking these questions because you are getting ready to confront him over an issue that I'm not sure you are clear on. Is the culprit porn, or just graphical porn, or masterbation without you, or lying? And if it's lying that's the problem then is it universaly being a liar or is it just about lying when something embarrasses him? And does that make a difference or is there no distinction between the forms of lying?


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

tacoma said:


> Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ahh, do u mean being intimate with him and offering no consequence for his actions?

Yeah, you are right. Complexity, you are right. I have tried hard to give consequences. Very. I have ditches him many times on the issue of knowing there is more to his A than he is letting on. But yes, here I am, still with him. I offer no long standing consequences. But the problems we have had over this issue are huge. Being the kind of person he is I would think he would have run off by now due to this issue coming up. That or have confessed. He has done neither. That makes me then question that maybe he is telling the truth.

On the other hand, if he is lying, and wants to be with me desperately, which I think he does, he could be hiding this final truth knowing it would do much damage. Or just due to fear, just like the porn. Lie to the n'th degree. He knows I know, he knows, but he will not come clean. Not until the evidence is thrown in his face. 

It probably isn't even as bad as I imagine. If he came clean I could live with that as he is all I have ever wanted. He knows it nears the end. I have told him so. I have told him I cannot be with someone who lies to me. Told him all I feel on many occasions. He knows. I do not. I have told him the ice is thin. He is quiet. I know I near the absolute end. I have known for some time. I just need to find a place to make it as easy on me as possible. 

He came over last night to get his things. I cannot do the goodbye thing. I want him out and stay out. No more pain!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Tony55 said:


> Men typically look at porn to enhance the process of masterbation, if he's spending time on porn sites then he's most likely spending that time masterbating. So, the larger question is, are you ok with him spending that much time masterbating... Without you?
> 
> On the issue of lying or being a liar, people tend to lie when a question is deeply personal, especially if the person feels badly about the activity, maybe that should be explored a little more. Does he lie about other aspect of his life?
> 
> ...


It is only about the lying. That is all. I understand people's need to lie about certain things. But this situation hinges on lies he has told me about his A. He filled me with lies throughout, gaslighting. I told him no more BS from here. He promised none. He has. And not just on the porn. But the only stuff I know about is what I knew to be true before asking and he told me it was not. They were all understandable lies, but lies all the same. On the other hand, they were not understandable. Easy to say, yeah I did. Slight embarrassment but if an honest person, they would not take that lie to the n'th degree. Swear on his daughter's life! 

It is only about the lies. And the facts that don't make sense, his answers, his behaviour traits when he lies, all point to knowing there is something else he will not tell me! And so I make my own plausible answers. And everything fits!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I have just read Bronwen's updates on her thread and been given an idea. I think at this time it would be appropriate.

Also, I wanted things to be good when we split. Good for him anyway. I want the pain to be felt as he has felt very little and put me through so much. And since I found out about the porn and confronted I have been distancing, getting to a place of ease for me. Thinking a lot about what to do and how to do it. And yes, sex too. But it has been different. And he has been wanting me, loving me, expressing his love to me in ways that are even more intense than ever before. In ways that have not been done with such frequency.

He has gone away for a week with his daughter. I don't miss him, and the longer he is away the more anger I feel at the way he has treated me. How he takes me for a fool. Though I am more angry at myself for allowing it. He left on Monday, and gets back Friday. I intend to go dark on him. Ignore his texts and phone calls, leave him worried and floundering miles away and unable to do anything about it. And when he gets back I will be away with my children, which he already knows. And I intend to have nothing more to do with him. Unless he gives me all he is hiding from me. Though I don't expect that, and if he does, he won't give me his all anyway, and I will never know if it is all the truth or not due to his ability to lie. And to lie over something so insignificant in the way that porn is not an A, when I obviously know, to lie until the evidence means he cannot deny any longer. And only then tell the truth. But I don't have evidence. I don't have anything other than gut feelings from his behaviour and the circumstances that don't add up. 

Going dark on him will be the road to the truth and the end. Or just the end. I hope.

Though I am still desperate to put spyware on his phone. I would like to know if they still correspond! I need to know!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I have had 4 texts and 12 missed calls on my phone so far today, over about 2 1/2 hours, along with however many on my home phone. I am doing the right thing, but it is so difficult when the situation is your own. Easy to see what someone else should be doing.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

74 missed calls yesterday on my mobile along with probably about 50-60 on my landline. And many texts. I even had his mum call me! He told her he is having trouble getting through to me! I told her he knows exactly why he can't get through.

He is back today from holiday, but I am away today for a couple of days with my children. So he has a couple more days of panic and upset to go yet. It is just a small taste of what I have been through in one way or another for the past 3 years. And I should not have been put through what I have been for the past year since DD, but he did all the same. Taking control is empowering. Will I ever get the truth out of him? Probably not. As has been discovered through his lying of something that isn't even too bad, not an A, just porn. He will lie til the evidence is in his face, and only then come clean. So I am on a hiding to nothing trying to get him to volunteer the info with nothing but circumstantial evidence and gut feeling to go on. And his patterns of behaviour over his lies are all the same. The porn issue gave me that.And so he can feel some of the pain instead. The wanting to talk, and my refusal. The wanting to sort, and my refusal. The not knowing, and being unable to find out. I almost feel sorry for him. He was in a state yesterday, or so he texted. Almost talked with him at one point. This morning I have had about 7 missed calls and several texts. And I almost talked to him again. But he does not deserve me to. He doesn't deserve to know. He doesn't deserve decent and respectful and loving behaviour, which is what he has had from me the past 3 years. He doesn't deserve honest chats about what is wrong, what the issue is, about anything. He deserves limbo.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Good for you, stay dark , waywards dislike not being in control and more so when they dont know what your doing. Use this time as a practice run for permanent seperation, he can change and evidence the change or you will be on your way without him .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Absolutely Eli-zor, well said.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> Good for you, stay dark , waywards dislike not being in control and more so when they dont know what your doing. Use this time as a practice run for permanent seperation, he can change and evidence the change or you will be on your way without him .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Okay how are you getting his browse history. If you are finding files that means he is downloading them. So either he is paying for it or he is using a torrent site. The most popular one right now since the death of demonoid would be Download music, movies, games, software! The Pirate Bay - The galaxy's most resilient BitTorrent site . 
A look for things such as bittorent, utorrent, limewire, and any other sort of filesharing software. 

If you want to know exactly when and where a file was put on the computer. Just right click on it and go to properties. It will list the date created (the date it was put on the computer and i think the time even, the last time it was modified, and the last time it was accessed (or watched). 
Start writing that stuff down. 
One way he could be accessing porn without you knowing is if he is using a proxy server. The proxy server acts as a middle man. Your device connects to the proxy, which is an actual computer. Your ISP sees the connection between you and the proxy. Then you start browsing, you type in an internet address and the info is sent to the proxy that then goes out connects to the porn site and then sends the data back to your computer. There by circumventing a porn block. This has not been pulled off on 3g connections using Iphone or android. It has been pulled off in the Iphone and android over a wifi connection.

I am just a little concerned that you might be getting bad info. He certainly is looking up porn and such. I just want to make sure you're not finding stuff and getting the wrong idea from them.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Thanks badbane, tho I am not quite sure what you are getting at. Are.you saying that I could be finding things on my computer that he hasn't actually looked at? 

Regardless though, the porn issue is cleared up...eventually. I knew he was watching it as I was tapping into his Google account, I had activated search history and saw each time he searched. I just couldn't work out how he was watching it at his as he had no WiFi and a block on his phone that would take effort to remove. So it wasn't. He was tapping into his student neighbours WiFi, no password. But they moved and the searches stopped. As soon as I confronted him with irrefutable evidence he came clean. The issue was his ease of lying, his promises of no more lies since DD, and his pattern of behaviour when he lies.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Ok, so, more TT! He turned up at my house last night while I continued to ignore him. He was a little drunk. I continued in my coldness. I was clear I have no more interest in him due to knowing there is other stuff regarding his A that he is not telling me. He carried on with the insistence on only being 4 occasions with his ex. Every time I bring up that there is stuff he is not telling me, he brings it down to that. So I know he is BSing me as he twists what I say so that he can answer it. I asked him a couple of things. Get angry because here I am asking again. I have had it with squeezing blood from a stone. He has to offer it. And so I forget what I say and ask him about a particular meeting where he bumped into her and that was it. He went totally cold on me following this meeting. The meeting was in Feb of last year, I found out about it in May, June last year. 

It turns out he said to her it would be nice to see her again = let's meet for a f*ck. She asked if he was still with me. He said yes. She said I am not prepared to share u and that I don't want to be with someone who cannot choose. When he left, she texted him saying don't be a stranger. He deleted the text. From what he gathered from the words she said she was leaving an opening for them to get back together again. He didn't take it.

That is what he told me anyway. I don't know if I believe it. What's your opinions on this?

Edit: I have just called him up because the bit about not wanting to be with someone who cannot choose makes no sense to me. It seems he asked her to get back together. But he says that is not correct, that is not what he meant. And that that is not what was said. He fished for sex, she asked if he was in a relationship, he said yes. And she said she was not prepared to share him with anyone. 

I am inclined to believe this. He was drunk last night, and he only said that bit once at the beginning. When I got him to go through it fully, several times, that didn't come into it again. And he says he cannot remember saying that last night. Also, he has always stuck by the fact she wrote him 'dont be a stranger' and if he was trying to get back with her and she refused, she would not send something like that.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

However I am done now. Some of the things he said last night were unforgivable, and so is the way I have had to squeeze every drop from him while giving my all. And the fact he fished for sex at that time. That was not a good time. If she had agrees to sex they would still be at it now and he would never have become the devoted man he is now.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

This was edited after one that follows. Feeling crap. more crap. and crap again.

I ditch this thread. and I ditch my profile on a site that only gives a sh*t about someone who has discovered a red flag/s and doesn't know what to do. And then most batter them with the one box that fits all. The same advice regardless of situation and circumstance. Don't get me wrong, it is all very good advice in a certain situation. Most situations. But the black and white, the bloodthirsty, the whitewash, is just quite shocking sometimes. And yes, the lack of support when someone seems to be 'ok' and knowing, is rubbish. I bloody give up! I read this site for help initially, and to help others also. I am an understanding person, see from ALL points of view, and so am extremely empathetic to all situations. Others r not tho, whitewash city.

And yes. I am pis*ed off. I hope for advice too, or just a little support. Or anything. Nothing.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Crap!


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

You've been drinking?


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Remains, I get that you're frustrated and it sucks that your thread isn't receiving as much attention. I suppose many of us have become too desensitized to deal with the "less dramatic" forms of infidelity. 

Non the less, I've been trying to mull a reply. I think the central problem is that you've had a false start to your reconciliation. You've conflated his recent dishonesty with the affair. While both are concerning issues, it isn't conducive to apply events in the past to validate your suspicions in the present. While that's perfectly reasonable and logical to do, he'd think, rightly or wrongly, (rightly in your circumstances) that you're holding it over him. I don't think he comprehends what TT does to a BS. I believe in his mind, he thinks that you've both moved on from the past so there's no need to rehash it, i.e if nothing happened (with the ex sexually) there's no need to talk about it. He suspects complete disclosure will cause more harm than good. He superimposes the "clean slate" mentality without offering you a chance for closure. Coincidently he doesn't realise it does more harm than good and his recent porn usage only acts as a trigger.

Did you have him read any resources to help you get over this? I feel like he's rugswept his actions

Regarding his explanation, it's contradictory in several ways. 1) Why did he fish for her if he wants to be with you?. 2) Since when did your relationship become an issue to their affair? If she didn't want to be with him while you're together, why did she say "don't be a stranger" . I'm confused on that part too.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

cheatinghubby said:


> You've been drinking?


Yes. 'fraid so. 

Drinking due to my sh*thead of a man who is the biggest arse that walked the planet. I have said on every one of my threads how he is all I ever wanted in a man if it was not for this. But as my resolve grows stronger, I realise more of the negatives. So true, u don't really and truly know someone til u split up from them. Then the full extent comes out. The true colours come forth. And so I am drinking tonight. And very pis*ed off. And so being rather *****y as a result. not like me at all.

His parting shot night before last was because I told him to leave. Never asked him to come over in the 1st place. His parting shot was that one of my friends had asked him for his number one night, a drunk night. 'And it is not who you think it is'. So I was pis*ed off. I refused to talk to him til he told me who and when. Also told him I did not believe him and he just making it up. Could not imagine any one of my friends doing that. None fancied him for starters, a couple of them can't stand him due to all upset and stress he has put me thru, and they much younger than him so NEVER!, and only 2 others around same age I been out with and drunk to that extent, 2 of my best mates. One is absolutely against cheating to any degree, all her boundaries r well in place, the other is more grey, but would never ever ask him for his phone number. ridiculous! She would have bigger fish to fry, and just would not fancy him at all, and asking him for his number would absolutely not be her style.

As he told me that, he was leaving my house, and scorned at me, 'ha, you will never be able to look at your friends again without wondering which one it was that tried it on with me'. And he would no way tell me who. Unforgiveable. He also told me he still had my door key. I asked for it back. He refused. I was after him down the street at 3am begging for my door key back and ended up calling the police before he gave it to me. The stress and upset he has caused in my life is too big to mention, and then my only solace of my friendships he tries to ruin too. What a basta*d of the highest order. All because I threw him out due to him coming unannounced and giving me another hurtful bit of TT. Very hurtful.

He told me the next morning (yesterday) he made that up so I would call him and not ignore him. He said sorry. I said it was unforgiveable.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Complexity said:


> Remains, I get that you're frustrated and it sucks that your thread isn't receiving as much attention. I suppose many of us have become too desensitized to deal with the "less dramatic" forms of infidelity.
> 
> Non the less, I've been trying to mull a reply. I think the central problem is that you've had a false start to your reconciliation. You've conflated his recent dishonesty with the affair. While both are concerning issues, it isn't conducive to apply events in the past to validate your suspicions in the present. While that's perfectly reasonable and logical to do, he'd think, rightly or wrongly, (rightly in your circumstances) that you're holding it over him. I don't think he comprehends what TT does to a BS. I believe in his mind, he thinks that you've both moved on from the past so there's no need to rehash it, i.e if nothing happened (with the ex sexually) there's no need to talk about it. He suspects complete disclosure will cause more harm than good. He superimposes the "clean slate" mentality without offering you a chance for closure. Coincidently he doesn't realise it does more harm than good and his recent porn usage only acts as a trigger.
> 
> ...


Thanks Complexity, I always appreciate your answers. They are considered and meaningful. I will try to answer point by point.

1. Rightly, not wrongly. I have always known that he was holding stuff back. Not giving me the whole truth. His pattern of behaviour (lies) over the porn, no big issue, gave me a stronger resolve over past issues that nag at me, that I know, totally know, that he is being dishonest about. Hence my going dark on him last week and ignoring him. Hence my having had enough. I don't even care anymore. I just read in someone's post about why their ex and AP split, 'that neither of them had it in them to resolve issues' or words to that effect. That is what he is. And what I am not. I fought to resolve, he fought to not. But he cheated! He has been devoted since, loved me, but as I told him that is not enough. You cannot move forward if your past is lies. You cannot build, rebulid, u relationship if its foundation is lies. it needs truth and honesty. I begged for honesty. I did not get it. 

I agree with the rest of what u said, but only in as much as his words. He accused me if rehashing the past and dragging it up etc. But that was his attack in order to defend. And I knew it. And so I would not accept his attack. I have never been unreasonable. Never bashed him with it. I am not bitter. I have only tried to talk. So, ne knowing it, going dark, has now produced my previous post of what further TT came out 2 days ago. And that makes a BIG difference. He would still be screwing her now if she allowed it. 

He believes complete disclosure will do more harm than good. You are right. But not in the way you mean. It will do more harm because at this stage it is too late. He has had his chances. Over & over he has had them. And now it will do more harm because there is more bad things to tell, ve has had a year to tell them, and instead I have had lies. There are much worse things. As I have outlined above of the next bit of TT he told me the other night. I believe that is just the tip if the iceberg. And I know I am not wrong. Just like all the other stuff I have known and been completely correct about. 2 years ago I didn't truly trust my gut, believed in the not quite believeable. Now I trust. Fully. I know myself, I am self aware, and I know what is real and what is paranoia. This is not.

He wants a clean slate to hide from his lies. And for that reason only. Hence his lack of empathy and contrition, and his use of attack to defend. He has done this since 1 month after DD.

And the porn usage wasn't a trigger, he knew porn was not an issue, it was the lies. The propensity to lie and continuously lie until the evidence is in his face. That was the trigger. And rightly so. As that triggered me going dark, which then triggered a bit more truth coming out.

As for your questions, 1. I don't know. I think he is still lying to me. I think he wanted to get back together with her, plenty to point to that, and she refused. Whig would explain the 'I don't want to be with someone who can't make their mind up'. I feel he has only cared about me once she closed the door fully on him. 2. I am not quite sure what u mean in this question. I think there are a few typos. But....I think she was happy to have sex with him (4 times in all over 9 months) while it was meaningless. But she knew he still loved her (evidence to suggest this) and she didn't want to carry on with someone on that basis. I think she had a little more, not much more but a bit more, moral integrity and care for him than he did for me. She knew he still loved her (she dumped him for someone else before I met him) and she did the right thing for him to move on....eventually. He never did the right thing by me! Proclaimed love for me right the way through while treating me like sh*t one minute and thoroughly loving the next.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I know it is a long post above, maybe convoluted, I don't care if no one reads it/responds...actually I do really... but it is good to get it down. Helps to make sense of it all. Thankyou for replying, because I have just had a further realisation hit me while I am doing so.

I have thought so much about it all, every possibility. I should have been a lawyer! I have gathered much evidence, and I have listened and watched him while answering intently. I also paid HER a visit back in July last year. I take what she said with a pinch of salt, not only is she covering her ass but she covering his too. But we chatted. And she gave a few things away in what she said. Just as he did when I told him I went to see her. Many things trigger and point to what I know to be true, and what I know he is not telling me. 

And I don't even care anymore. And I think he knows it. He is still trying to play his games with me tonight to draw me back in. They don't wash no more. Yes I do still care really, but in a very detached way. He will have to pull some major magic out of the bag, along with the whole truth, in order for me to even give him the time of day. And I know that won't happen. We will see what happens next week.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Remains said:


> Thanks Complexity, I always appreciate your answers. They are considered and meaningful. I will try to answer point by point.
> 
> 1. Rightly, not wrongly. I have always known that he was holding stuff back. Not giving me the whole truth. His pattern of behaviour (lies) over the porn, no big issue, gave me a stronger resolve over past issues that nag at me, that I know, totally know, that he is being dishonest about. Hence my going dark on him last week and ignoring him. Hence my having had enough. I don't even care anymore. I just read in someone's post about why their ex and AP split, 'that neither of them had it in them to resolve issues' or words to that effect. That is what he is. And what I am not. I fought to resolve, he fought to not. But he cheated! He has been devoted since, loved me, but as I told him that is not enough. You cannot move forward if your past is lies. You cannot build, rebulid, u relationship if its foundation is lies. it needs truth and honesty. I begged for honesty. I did not get it.
> 
> ...


Sorry, my English tends to spaz out on internet forums lol. What I meant to say was, if she initially had no problem sleeping with him while you two were committed, why did it become an issue all of a sudden? If he cheated on you because he still had feelings for her and she began to reciprocate those feelings, why did he reject her opening (relationship wise that is)? 

Now, he had the chance to go back with her but didn't, which brings the issue as to why he epically F'd up your reconciliation. Logic would dictate that because he gave up his ex for you, it means that you have more worth to him. Then why did he drag his feet with the reconciliation and say all those nasty things? By all measures your terms to reconcile weren't that punishing, not that you intended that in the first place. But his actions with the TT, the deceit regarding the porn issue and lately these callous parting shots, suggest that he doesn't know what he wants... His casual attitude towards your hurt in all honesty suggest that he sees you as dispensable. Do you think you were the rebound girl to him? Because a person who's felt genuine remorse for his actions and actually values their partner doesn't say those things, even while intoxicated.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Complexity said:


> Sorry, my English tends to spaz out on internet forums lol. What I meant to say was, if she initially had no problem sleeping with him while you two were committed, why did it become an issue all of a sudden? If he cheated on you because he still had feelings for her and she began to reciprocate those feelings, why did he reject her opening (relationship wise that is)?


Thanks C. I honestly don't know, I think it is wrong too. The only way I can work out reality is by looking at the facts and sifting thru what he says and decide what is real and what is not. He has taught me those skills. I don't see that as a relationship. So, the facts are, he screwed her 4 times over 9 months. Jan, Feb, March, July. He bumped into her in Jan/Feb and requested more sex. This is where I am uncertain. And you are right, why would she refuse after not giving a sh*t all the other times. Especially if she was telling him she not prepared to share him, & giving opening to start relationship again. I think he was either begging her back to start relationship, or they did have sex again. I think he is completely lying about what was said. At that time, his behaviour was completely cold to me, and mean. No love. Same as each time he had sex with her. When I found out he bumped into her I pieced the 2 together. So, I believe to behave that way he either had sex with her or was rejected. 



Complexity said:


> Now, he had the chance to go back with her but didn't, which brings the issue as to why he epically F'd up your reconciliation. Logic would dictate that because he gave up his ex for you, it means that you have more worth to him. Then why did he drag his feet with the reconciliation and say all those nasty things?


Agreed. But I don't think she gave him an opening to get back together, I think he has made that up so it looks better. I am even beginning to doubt 'dont be a stranger' text. 
I think she rejected him. Or had sex with him. I think these are the only possibilities that fit. And if she rejected him, it was him trying to get back together with her, and that she did actually say she refuses to be with someone who cannot make his mind up. If they had sex, that would fit too. But it is all very elaborate, mind you, he is good at making up these elaborate stories in order to satisfy the question. He admits to a wrong that is not as bad as the real one. I think I have it! Yes, it all fits, and yes, he had sex with her again! He must have. Why would she suddenly find morals if she did actually want to get back with him. And if he doesn't care enough about me to not cheat, why would he not get back with her. She did tell me though when I reminded her of 'dont be a stranger' and accused her, she looked at me with (feigned?) shock and said 'uh no! I'll tell u what I texted him. I told him not to contact me again'. This would fit with him being totally rejected. But I don't know what I believe. Trying to fathom it out does cement my anger and resolve to have nothing to do with him tho. I've allowed too much crap from him. He should come with a mental health warning.

He drags his feet on R because he can. And to avoid all his lies. The more he talks with me, the more likely he will trip up. Therefore he refuses to talk. Easy. He refuses to talk, I refuse to be with him.

He says nasty things because he is childish. 



Complexity said:


> By all measures your terms to reconcile weren't that punishing, not that you intended that in the first place. But his actions with the TT, the deceit regarding the porn issue and lately these callous parting shots, suggest that he doesn't know what he wants... His casual attitude towards your hurt in all honesty suggest that he sees you as dispensable. Do you think you were the rebound girl to him? Because a person who's felt genuine remorse for his actions and actually values their partner doesn't say those things, even while intoxicated.


I know I was the rebound. He told me he had dumped her as she cheated on him. But that was made up to make him look better. He absolutely cannot deal with rejection or admit to being rejected. And I agree with u on you final bit. I was shocked, could not believe he stooped so low whether true or not. To say it and then refuse to say who, just for attention! I thought he truly cared. He behaved like he did in every way except giving me what is necessary for R. But he is closed, he is difficult, has issues. And so I hoped this was his personality rather than my gut screaming he lies! 
Yes, I think I am dispensable. I know I am. And I know I did not punish him after finding out. I should have. The biggest upset he will have over our split is fact he got my name tattooed on his arm. And he will now have to get it removed.
That is how dispendable. 

He is already playing his games. He loves attention, even negative attention and especially negative attention when we fall out, any attention is better than none. He hates being ignored, as does anyone, but he deserves it by ignoring my needs. He absolutely hated me doing that when he was away. In my stupidity I haven't continued unwaveringly upon his return. I need to make a plan. And the plan needs to be 'ignore him, permanently.' 

Thankyou Complexity for pointing those things out. And yes, none of it, his version, makes sense.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

It's pretty clear from what you've written he's been deceitful from the outset Remains. His excuses and stories have all been fanciful. I do agreethat he was the one dumped. She wanted nothing to do with him and it completely killed his ego. In the process, I think he wanted validation by making you fall for him. I don't know if the tattoo thing was out of love, or was designed to make his ex jealous. In all honesty, there's something "wrong" with his character.

I understand you dearly love this man hence why you put up with so much of his nonsense. However, I don't think the relationship is redeemable. You can do so much better than this Remains. If he matures and really reflects on his life, maybe I can see you getting back together. In the meantime however, you're just wasting your life with someone who has a highschool maturity. 

I think you should continue with the 180. It's opened your eyes to his true character. Maybe it'll make moving on much easier. I hope you stay strong and not capitulate to his manipulation.

I wish you the best Remains.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Thank you so much Complexity. Thankyou for your replies. It had helped me work through some of it. And I needed that to strengthen my resolve. Thankyou. I am staying strong. He is still trying to come over, he went out with his friend tonight and was calling me after. I ignored. I did call him today to get the truth out of him, a realisation hit me that made the truth so obvious. I had to call him. But he was not for budging. Used his tactics of when I point out a negative, how awful he is being, he then throws something at me. Something nasty or like sticking his tongue out 'well u do that too & u do it worse than me' kind of playground mentality. I didn't get sucked in or sidetracked. I haven't been. Very pleased with myself. All I want from him is the truth now. I won't be involved in the tit for tat. Only the truth will initiate a conversation from me with him. And I am not holding my breath.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

P.s. we have never broke up this long before. I have never not seen him when he is free for more than a day or 2, partly due to my intense paranoia he will see someone else, but also my desire for him. He has been like a drug for me, knowing he is bad for me bit unable to refuse. He will be realising I am serious. And he is beginning to use tactics of not caring and glad we split cos he has come to a few realisations about me over the years (!!! absolutely laughable) in between wanting & calling & texting. He is so juvenile.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I think I am about to get it all tonight. All the crap. I should be bracing myself, but I am indifferent.

I sent texts to his mother a few days ago to tell her that there is nothing wrong with me, with my need to sort, with knowing he continues to lie. Because now I have been proved right, some more TT has come out. She had basically given me his words of criticism the last few times I spoke to her - she had been extremely supportive at the beginning and then turned. She said to me a few times his exact words to me, I have to let it go, I have to stop dragging it up - and then his parents met mine, they got on really well, and she was told stuff from my childhood. She called me specifically to tell me after meeting them how nice it was and that 'oh it all makes sense now' with regards to how I had dealt with her son's infidelity. God I was angry! I am self aware, I know what is my screwed up crap, and refusing to believe his lies and trying to make sense of the 'story' was not my childhood crap. She belittled and demeaned all I have gone through and all my efforts to get over 'it' in the same way he did. He said, well tell her then, if it upset u tell her otherwise it will eat at you. He was right, so I did. I called her to say to her that what she'd said upset me, all I have ever done is try to sort, all I have ever some is try to fix. And he has refused to talk to me since June last year. Only 1 month after it all came out. She seemed genuine in her reply. Which is kind of where this thread started. 

I went cold on him, genuinely, he got his mother to call me to find out why I would not talk to him! 

Then more came out on his return from hol. So I was vindicated. I sent her a text. Saying that all I was after was the truth, nothing to do with my childhood, all I ever wanted was truth, and he has fought it all the way. And painted me into something else. I was right to fight. I won't be in a relationship that is based on lies. I finished by saying how much I appreciated her support at beginning, my mum never cared but she did, I was hopeless and empty and she helped me enormously and I won't forget that. 

No answer.

I was ambiguous in my 1st text, didn't go.into details, she never replied. I knew she was seeing him nxt day so I texted saying he was requesting more sex so far into our relationship...that is what I knew was wrong in what he told me. I was never wrong. All I tried to do was fix and all I got was accuasation. 

He told me that day his mum asked him 'tell Jo to stop texting me' He told me that yesterday. I felt guilty.

Today...I felt anger. So much anger. He has caused the rift between me and his mum by his words, his mum has a tainted view of me cos of him, and she told him to tell me to not text! How dare she, after all she painted on me. He came over this evening, I showed him my 'awful texts' to her, he said they ain't bad. Nothing bad. She should have responded. And it is all true! I was diplomatic on the 1st txt, and after no response and a night to sleep on it, I was diplomatically angry in the next one. He then texted his mum tonight saying she should read again and all I say is true and she should not ignore me! 

Bloody hell! This is a turn up for the books. I have been so different this time of splitting. I don't want.him back. He knows. He truly knows.

This is where it all comes out. If it ever will.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Best of luck Remains, keep us posted!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Thanks Complexity. You really are a diamond. Even though I have been a stroppy and boring and overly long and convoluted story teller.

I absolutely, totally, and conclusively appreciate your input and your effort to respond. I appreciate more than u can comprehend. Thank you. Xxx


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Nothing new. sigh. He is downstairs on the sofa. Feeling lucky he ain't out the door.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> He would also say things after being exposed like I don't think you will ever get over this.
> 
> I wish I could turn back the clock. Yadda yadda.


I just read this on another thread. I think Sara says some very apt comments. 

This is my man down to a tee. Oh so many times I have heard this! TRIGGER! 

I read this and went downstairs and threw him out. Thankyou Sara.

P.S. When I went down, he didn't think I had gone to ask him to come upstairs to bed, like I would do. He said to me, I sat down and without saying a word, he said 'you've come to throw me out haven't you?' 

How telling. How profound. He told me absolutely nothing new tonight. I told him days ago, reiterated today, if nothing new then he out the door (I meant re. her & his feelings to her and his efforts to change i.e. a counsellor). But he seemed genuine. Just like all the other times. So glad I have this place to read, remind, and vent. 

I asked him tonight also what he plans to do to change way he behaves. He said same as last 3 yrs. He is different now. He wants to be different. Doesn't want to be that man anymore. 
Yawn......


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

You're very welcome Remains. Your story isn't "boring" at all. 

Regarding the broken record, "promises are most given when the least is said". Coincidence, he had nothing new to say. I don't understand why he looks at the past 3 years as some sort of accomplishment? :scratchhead::scratchhead: Is he trying to insult your intelligence?

Eitherway, look at it like this, his promises are like clouds and fulfilment is rain. Unless you see some major flooding, I wouldn't budge an inch. He's still sticking to his rug sweeping tactics and charm offensive hoping you'll relent. Don't give him another opportunity like the last time. I suspect he's a very patient and calculating man. By playing the waiting game and being shrewdly casual about the row, he'll guilt you into thinking that you're blowing things out of proportion. That's why he's been so immature lately.There's something very condescending about his attitude in all of this. Perhaps this stems from not facing any serious consequences for his initial cheating and then the lying. He looks at your current problem as a minor blip and you'll eventually "get over it" like the last times.

You need to start taking concrete steps to get out of this limbo. In the current state, he's got the upper hand because you said it perfectly yourself, "he loves attention, even negative attention and especially negative attention when we fall out, any attention is better than none". You need to cut him off completely for an extended period. I don't know if the house is jointly owned, but perhaps you should consider no more visits until you see some genuine change.

Stay strong!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Thanks again Complexity. I agree, he is just waiting patiently for me to crack. Waiting for me to start missing him. And no, I won't be budging an inch. And I won't be having him round to my house again. I gave him the opportunity, he wanted to come and talk to me, made it absolutely clear he should not come if he has nothing new to say. 

BTW this time is different to all others. 1. It has lasted longer. I know it's not been long anyway, but this is long for us. and 2. I haven't been engaging with him like I would normally. Normally he would get a lot of angry texts, I would answer his to me. This time I have ignored just about every text he has sent. 

So many times we have fallen out & I have said I expect him to give it all up, I won't talk to him til he does, and he has said ok then, let's talk. And he just says the same stuff! He thinks I'm an idiot! 

So now, no more opportunities. He used it and blew it. Treated me like a fool again. I just want him to stay away from me now and no contact. I keep asking him to leave me alone but he will give the odd text here and there. Then I am reminded of something and get angry at him again and send an angry text. That happened once yesterday, and then last night when I threw him out. Other than that I have ignored. I am very pleased with myself  I am looking forward to time moving on, and me moving on. I wish it would hurry up!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Oh, and p.s. I didn't realty get what you meant by this bit: 

"Regarding the broken record, "promises are most given when the least is said"."

"Coincidence, he had nothing new to say. I don't understand why he looks at the past 3 years as some sort of accomplishment?"

Were these 2 bits connected?


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

It's an archaic saying. He's the broken record with nothing new to say. The last was in reference to his initial promises and looking at his previous attempts to "change" as some sort of an accomplishment.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Thanks Complexity for your support. 

I have no interest in snooping on him since my decision. Until today. I didn't give him a goodnight last Weds (22nd) as I fell asleep in front of tv, and last Thurs was when I began to ignore him. As I have said, I tapped into his email search history due to him giving passwords etc. Found he changed all his passwords on phone and.email on 28th. I changed them to tap in today. Suspicion high. Didn't care he would find out imminently. As far as he knows I see his email and phone records. Not his search history.

He was searching 'online dating' on Sat just 3 days after I told him no more us. As well as much other stuff. Confirmed are my intentions to leave and stay left. Confirmed are my thoughts that 1 woman will never ever be enough for him. And he tries to tell me his heart is breaking. 

Thankyou to snooping and not giving a sh*t. Thankyou to gut feeling always being right. And Thankyou to advice and comments to my getting stuff down and making sense of it all. Thankyou Complexity! Xxx


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

You should be proud of yourself Remains. You did all you could to fix the relationship even though you weren't at fault. I'm glad you saw him for who he is and got out of this nightmare. I don't know if you want to dig up any more old skeletons, but I wonder if you confirmed with his ex the reason why they broke up? was she the one who cheated or was it the other way around? Because his behaviour doesn't indicate this person experienced the pain of infidelity. 

Nevertheless, you handled yourself perfectly and a lot of Betrayed spouses can a learn a lesson from reading your thread, especially those who are stuck in limbo. Keep us updated with your thoughts/frustrations/recollections,I'll still read and reply. 

I wish you the best again.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Complexity, I have tears in my eyes as I read your response. I thank you. 

as for digging up old skeletons, I called him today as I found them. He cdn't answer as still at work....thank god. I was at a funeral this afternoon of a friend so I had no time to address it. I was almost late for the funeral due to my snooping and finding. I called him after the wake and told him I need to speak to him...arranged for tonight or tomor morn. My kids are at my parents. So arrangement became tomor morn. No talk after drinking is good! I have since texted him that I don't wanna meet tomor.

What is the point? He is only gonna tell me crap...and the stuff he been looking up, searching on the internet, is not good. Stuff that was fuelled by intimate chats before he went away, and then the moment I don't want to be with him any longer he is looking up online dating. He went on match.com. Tho I don't think he set up a profile....yet. I tried sending passwords to email accounts, he has 2, but nothing. Even so, he has looked it up only 2 days after we split. NOT GOOD! 

So...I won't bother meeting him tomor. Waste of time.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Also, re. ex, she never said he cheated on her. I asked her if he ever did and she laughed and said 'I really don't know....but he always found someone quick when we split' , she also said that he had a problem with commitment. This all makes sense.

I think she probably gave up on him at some point but continued to have sex with him (he says by year 3 they saw each other 1 X per week, and they were together 5 yrs. He says he cheated on her once. Just a ONS). But I think she carried on without telling him they not an item anymore. I think she probably was a very similar person to him and they carried on with each other knowing what the other was like. I think that because she stopped caring about him, but gave him porn sex, he was hooked. And didn't give a sh*t. And he became a doormat. 

As soon as I gave him the same, talking of fantasies, becoming very intimate, he was suddenly overawed with me, I got more loving words than ever before in our time together. That came only on the last few weeks. He loved me immensely and totally and completely when I gave him dirty fantasy sex. And only then. The utter love he gave at that point was immense.

When I say dirty fantasy sex, I mean just spiced up. It was fun, and nothing bad, just that I had detached. 

The love has gone. Well and truly. I now know what he is like, what he gets off on, his weird love.

I believe that all of that could have come from us, we cd have explored and loved every minute of it, but when one is so.closed and lacks in morals and boundaries there is nothing to explore, nothing to enjoy, and nothing to grow together with.

Terrible shame.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I am having a realisation and so need to write it down before I forget. The realisation is due to anger and defensiveness being huge red flags. His refusals to speak with me, to discuss, I think all stem from his desperation to get back with her and him being unable to tell me so. And so he gets angry if I bring it up, because he cannot admit it. And talking about it means opening up his lies for discussion. Which he refused to do so many times.

He said to me the other week when he came over to mine to 'talk' and I later threw him out, he was drunk and got angry at discussing (which also suggests that this latest revelation was a lie too), he said that on that meet, the bumping into her in Feb last year, when he said it would be nice to see her again (=sex please?, his latest revelation. He had always insisted nothing had happened and they just chatted) and she replied she is not prepared to share him with anyone. He also said that night, she said 'I am not prepared to be with someone who doesn't know what he wants/can't choose'. He went back on this, said he didn't say it, or that he didn't mean to say that. That that is not what he meant. But it all makes sense when you consider the following.

He was the one who got angry that night, the other week. 

It would tie in with other things. When I saw her in July 2011, supposedly a full year since he last had sex with her and requested sex (tho now I know it is Jan/Feb 2011, apparently, when he last requested sex) she said 'he loves me and always will...he has told me he will always love me EVERY TIME I have seen him'. I clarified 'every time?', she said yes. He gave me some rubbish at the time about her wanting to think that, needing that. But he had not seen her for sex in a full year, apparently, not contacted her for sex since July the year before I saw her (or Jan/Feb that year now), 'why would anyone say that, a year after last contact, even the most deluded?' He said usual BS, I don't know, u will have to ask her, she wanted to think that, she needed that, she wanted to think she had some hold over me (I think the latter is true so far as she did have a hold over him, all from him though, his desire, his love). We were going on holiday shortly after I saw her. He asked 'why would you want to go with me now, I am worried'. I think he said that because all she said was true, and that he was concerned about what else was said, that the real truth came out. He also never said anything she said was preposterous. But he did when I made something up. So therefore, all she said to me was true. 

At the time of 'bumping into her', Jan/Feb 2011 he went cold on me, rejected me. Yet that didn't tie in with nothing going on but chat. He now says he requested sex and was turned down, but also that she left an opening for him to choose me or her. And her texting after the meet, 'don't be a stranger' and him ignoring it. That doesn't tie in with such coldness to me. Just a rejection from her of a meet up sex does not explain those cold patterns of behaviour, just the same as the times he did have sex with her. Neither of those make sense with his coldness to me. Either they had sex, or he proclaimed his undying love and she told him no way will I ever go back with you.

She also explained when I visited her how some people cannot be friends after a split, and they were one of them. I asked her about the 'don't be a stranger' text and she said 'uh...no! I told him not to contact me again'. I don't know if she was just denying a come on to my man, but what she says makes more sense than him. 

In my texts to his mum the other night, he read them, he didn't flag up anything as untrue. He sent a text to his mum saying that all I said was true. That suggests he would still be seeing her now if she happily did that. And that if they are not back together within 6 months it is only because she would not have him back.

His anger and defensiveness has come out so often, with regards to the things that don't make sense. 

I trust my gut, but find it difficult to rid myself of him. He is all I ever wanted in a man. But I don't trust him one bit. I don't believe anything going wrong now, but how can I continue forward with a past based on lies.

I am a total fool!

I know I have forgotten some of the angry, obvious things, I will edit them in if I remember them.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

I might be way off base here but do you see a correlation between sex and love for him. You mentioned in your previous post that he was most loving to you when you gave him essentially pornstar sex. Similarly, he was still hooked to his ex because of the wild sex she was giving him. 

Do you think he loved you as a person or was it more to do with driving him crazy in the bedroom?. I don't want to say he's a sex addict but with the early morning porn, the recurrent sex issue and his continued infidelity, do you think there might be more to his cheating than simply his ex? And you found out he was on dating sites already?


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Complexity, you are absolutely correct! I have believed for a long time that it is the sex he is addicted to. The sex equates to the love. That is why he couldn't give her up. That is where many of his problems lie. He is a very very sexy man (in himself rather than in the sense to look at). He loves sex, he loves great sex, and sex with him is great. I think he is highly sexed, but sees sex as something different to love (I am not even sure if he can love)...it is difficult to explain, some of his attitudes have rubbed off on me at different times in our relationship. I have felt what he seems to feel, his attitude, his ways. When I have gone cold and distant but can't give him up. I have always felt on the back foot with him, kept on my toes, mostly insecure, and the desire has been huge. The only time I felt totally secure with him (for a short period) I felt the desire for sex with him constantly subside hugely. It was weird. 

I have felt frequently that he turned into her, and I became him. He was my ******* (her name). We mirrored his last relationship, but in opposites. I adored him, would have done anything for him, and he was not that bothered, at the beginning anyway. But I didn't accept for very long, he accepted her, no question, for 5 years.

She gave him great sex. He didn't have to request anything, she knew what to give and when to give it. I think this is a skill that most people don't have. I remember when I was younger and my first real education in a man, he was a bast*rd! But he was amazing in bed. I never found another like him, and came to the conclusion that you can only have amazing sex with a bast*rd...as far as my knowledge has served me, I have found nothing to the contrary. He is my second massive education in men and life. But a very different education. He is kind and considerate (at least he is now. When I met him he did some unbelievable shi**y things, things that could easily have happened from the bast*rd), but since he became dedicated to me he is the real him (or at least that is what I would hope he is). He is a most lovely man in many ways, he just has this inherent weakness. I think it could possibly be kept under control, but he would have to be kept on a very tight leash. And he has been fairly happy so far with the leash, and the rules. But as soon as the rules become awkward or impossible, that then makes them pointless. And I never did fancy having a relationship where there had to be rules, regulations and control in place. Just basic considerations.

When he first came out with it, that he had slept with her, his first reason was (only time he said it - I find these first statements, first answers, are the most correct as he hasn't had time to consider it and it just pops out) that she was a good sh*g. He since modified this so as not to hurt my feeligs and make me feel inadequate, but that is the only (maybe?) reason he stayed with her. He is absolutely hooked on sex. And great sex to boot. And he is great to have sex with...but that is not the be all and end all for me. 

But it is very difficult to leave when not only he possesses all the characteristics I have ever wanted in a man, but also brilliant in bed too. I spent a very long time with a man who was neither, so meeting this man was as if all my Christmases had come at once. Not for very long though! The fundamental issues of loyalty, honesty and decency are not out weighed by these characteristics sadly (or not).

The other week before he went away, we talked personal fantasy stuff, he says he has never felt able to speak like that with anyone before (I have, and it is a great bonding time to have, to be able to do that together), it was great to speak so intimately and I loved it, as did he. And yes, I saw a big transformation in him. He definitely gushed at me like never before.

I believe his ex was the female version of him. Hooked on sex. Sex was all that made her real (as far as he tells it) and all her very being was hung on being attractive to men. I believe she was brilliant in bed, did all the right things at all the right times, and so he overlooked all her faults. I cannot overlook all his.

I definitely believe, truly, that he has a complete weakness for sex, that this comes before any other considerations. I think all she would have to do is click her fingers and he would be there. I don't think he would want another relationship with her (hmmm, I don't know actually, if she offered him a proper relationship rather than what they had which 1 night a week for the final 2 years, I think I would be ditched in a flash), but I don't think he could refuse a night with her here and there. I don't think great sex with deep love counts for him. It is there, a given, it is taken for granted. He wants her because she is much more elusive. He had to work hard for her, and oh my, he did. And she completely took advantage of him. He dropped anything for her, to help her out with whatever she needed, and he got very little in return. I think she treated him 'mean' (she kept him on the hop, on the back foot) and kept him very very keen. 

You value most what you have to work hard for.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

I think you made a very interesting point about your previous relationship. It was so unsatisfying that it made you put your current H on such a high pedestal. You've convinced yourself there's nothing better out there for you. 

Hypothetically speaking, had your previous relationship been satisfying, would've you even gotten with a person who's 1)a cheat, 2) came from a very messy relationship and 3) clearly has issues with sex and how it shapes relationships for him? Do you think there might be problems with your self esteem and it isn't really those qualities that you listed that keeps you latched on to him? Because if you notice, those qualities are conspicuously intertwined with him "getting some". Are they really innate or just relative to his sexual satisfaction. 

His ex had him pegged because she knew there was nothing beyond his sexual lust. Ideally he should've been very attractive to her outside the bedroom but she perhaps saw how superficial all of those things were. He still yearns for her validation but she will never give it to him. She simply has no respect for him. I wonder if you decided to go celibate for a while, would he keep up with the romance or will he go right back to those dating sites?


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

You make a very good point. When I have spoken to my friends they have said that about the previous relationship...that there is better out there. That my previous relationship was so very unsatisfying that I have convinced myself of that. And I do believe that is correct to some extent. Although other friends have said we were made for each other, my mum has said how good we are together, his parents feel the same. And we really are good together. Really good. We compliment each other perfectly I think in just about every way. And I don't believe I am the easiest person to be with, I do need a particular kind of person (as we all do to some degree, but me more than the average I think - I am feisty but very soft and loving, highly decent but also naughty, controlling but don't like a doormat, I love the way he stands up to me and he does it in such a great way and we get on magnificently). I believe my past relationships have glued me here in some way, probably a large way, but the way we interact and get along together is second to none.

Had my previous relationship been satisfying, in the same way, I wouldn't be split with my previous now. And if we were split, no, I probably wouldn't be with my current now either due to all the issues at the beginning of our relationship, or too-ing and fro-ing over being split. 

If he was as he is now and I found out he cheated? I would probably have given him another chance. Purely due to how great it is being with him. But when I got with him I didn't realise he was out of a messy split, he lied to me about his previous relationship, told me he had dumped her, and that he no longer had feelings with her. I had absolutely no idea of the extent to which he felt about her. I think he still does. I think that is why she stopped seeing him, because she didn't think it was fair on him due to how he felt about her..."we couldn't remain friends after we split"...and he has said about them talking of each of them moving on (never talk of getting back together, just a regret it hadn't worked out better and that they had both move on...BLOODY HELL! ANOTHER EPIPHANY! Yes, it was definitely him wanting to get back together and her talking of moving on, that they had both moved on, and they would continue to move on. So many times he has worded things in this way, that it was a mutual decision, or that he ended it, they don't make sense, and then it comes out that actually what I thought was the case...was actually the case! Every time!)

(I am not sure I understand this bit, but I will answer as I understand it. Correct me if I am wrong)Those qualities he has, they are innate in him. He doesn't use them to gain sexual satisfaction, I think being charming is inherent in a cheater, which is why it is difficult to see what is real in him, what is cheater in him, and what is not. He is not an average cheater type. He has not turned nasty as soon as he got what he wanted. He has put up with much 'aggravation' in the form of me addressing the issues, talking, questioning his lies, that he has tried to fight against and been unable to quash, and he is still here. He behaves totally adoring of me in every way, and not just to get sex. He helps with all the little things around the house, we do them together, and he gets up straight away to fix something if it needs doing. He is side by side with me in all I do. He is a total team player. He is ace! 

I definitely have problems with my self esteem, but that is tempered by my need to not be sh*t on, and so although I have put up with a lot, I have never put up with it lightly. 

And I have wondered that about his ex also. I think she had him sussed. I think he has given her a bad press...he cannot handle rejection or admitting he was rejected...hence the lie about how they split up. He also lied about why he and the one previous to his ex split up. She basically dumped him, but he told me that he had dumped her. I think his ex did not find him attractive outside the bedroom...not in the end anyway. He did say once that he thought that she thought he was not good enough for her. And I don't think he was at the time. I wonder now though...he is doing well for himself...I wouldn't be surprised if I saw them 2 back together one day soon. I think he will always hold a torch for her.

Sad. But probably true.


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