# How to know when a marriage is over?



## sensitiveguy (Mar 25, 2017)

I met my wife at 29 and she was 24. Feels so young now. Married at 33 and 28. Kids at 35 and 30 and 37 and 32. We got along great up until kids. My wife does a great job with the kids but I feel she has completely changed. I believe the emotional stress of kids has changed her. She is just not the same happy go lucky person, but a negative, moody person. I feel I am a perfect person to unload stress on. I do admit guys are oblivious to many things that concern women. While she is thinking about various things for the kids I am on my computer doing work. However, I work from home and have a flexible job so I am around and available to help. She just sees me on the computer while she deals with the kids. She does not work much. The change from a positive to a negative person is concerning for me. Also, her parents, both her brother and sister are all divorced. They are all bad at communicating. When she is moody it is impossible to talk, just holds it in. She knows all of this. But she cannot change. She always says I need to meditate but she never does. Her excuse is that there is always something to do for the house or kids. No time. 

My hope is that when the kids both go to school full time things would change. Kids would be older we would have more time together and there would be less stress. But of course Covid is not allowing that to happen. Younger daughter should be going to first grade full time. Part of me just feels like we are different people now and the time is up. But the thought of only seeing my kids fifty percent of the time sounds horrible. I want to be with them always. My question, is the caring for young kids a specific phase in a marriage that is difficult on all marriages? Once they are older and more independent things go back a little bit to how things were before kids? Am I being too sensitive? Or is there just a shift that happen where we have lost what we used to have and I need to accept it and move on?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

It is a tough time during parenthood no doubt. Going from lovers to parents is a huge swing in dynamics that can be tough to navigate at times. Covid isn’t helping matters at all. Hang in there. Give it time


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I doubt the kids getting older is going to change her core personality. This is who she matured into.

There are millions of women with kids who are tired and have life stresses who remain happy, pleasant women. 

Life is long. There will always be some kind of stress.


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## sensitiveguy (Mar 25, 2017)

Livvie said:


> I doubt the kids getting older is going to change her core personality. This is who she matured into.
> 
> There are millions of women with kids who are tired and have life stresses who remain happy, pleasant women.
> 
> Life is long. There will always be some kind of stress.


What do you think then is the solution? To change from a positive person to a moody one is such a significant change. Why cannot she make another significant change back to positivity?


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## sensitiveguy (Mar 25, 2017)

Mr.Married said:


> It is a tough time during parenthood no doubt. Going from lovers to parents is a huge swing in dynamics that can be tough to navigate at times. Covid isn’t helping matters at all. Hang in there. Give it time


Do you believe it is a hard phase that we will get through or does this experience change a women forever? When we don't have the kids it is like old times. With kids it is hit or miss.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

If she reverts to her old self when the children aren’t around, that sounds like good news for you as they get older and become more self-sufficient. Some women deal well with all the stresses of being a mom, especially to very young, demanding children, and some don’t. I stopped after one child because I worked full-time and I felt that one was my limit. Maybe two is her limit. If so, be glad when each phase is over and you don’t have to repeat it.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Todd Feldman said:


> Do you believe it is a hard phase that we will get through or does this experience change a women forever? When we don't have the kids it is like old times. With kids it is hit or miss.


We got through it.... it definitely took some years. Young children are demanding mental and monetary termites that never stop. Your wife hasn’t had a break....


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lemme tell you a true story from my youth. This has stayed with me over the years and came to fruition when my kids were born (now 18 and weeks shy of 16)

When I was about jr high age and starting to come of age and see the bigger pictures of the world, my dad came home with a young kitten one day. 

For the kitten and I, it was love at first sight. She was very cuddly and playful and always wanted to be with me and play and frolic with me all day long and would cuddle up and purr and sleep with me at night. When I would come home from school she would meet me at the door and the cycle would continue all over again. 

As she grew older, one day she started making these weird growls and noises and would be sticking her butt up in the air all the time and would come up and rub her butt on your leg. My mom, who was never crazy about animals in the house in first place, was somewhat disgusted and broke it to me that she was in heat and explained with that was all about. 

Anyway, one day as someone was coming in the door, she darted between their feet and ran out into the wild like the devil himself was chasing her. She was gone for days and I was sick with worry and heartbroken. My wise old school-marm mother kept assuring me that in a few days she would turn back up on the steps. She was trying to be assuring but her tone of voice and expression indicated to me that she was not all that excited about the cat's return for some reason. 

As she always was, mom was right. One day we got home from school and there was the cat waiting on the front porch as if nothing had happened. 

I was overjoyed and relieved that she was home but it did not take me long to realize that something about her was "different." she was no longer as playful or as cuddly. She seemed distracted and disinterested. And she was no longer sleeping with me but was always roaming around the house all the time and was sleeping in different locations.

Finally mom told me that she had gotten knocked up by about every stray tomcat in the neighborhood while she was gone and that she was looking for a warm and safe place to have her kittens (that would later turn out to be on the pile of dirty clothes in the laundry hamper)

Now having a litter of kittens was exciting and entertaining and she turned out to be a very good and dutiful mother and took great care of the kittens and for awhile we had about 10 kittens of all different colors and patterns to play with. 

We found suitable homes for all the kittens and one by one they were all gone in time leaving just mother cat. 

(stay with me, I'm going somewhere important with this) 

When the kittens were gone I was kind of glad because now the cat and I could get back to playing and back to her cuddling and sleeping with me at night again.........

But nope. didn't happen. Now she was just another lazy, moody, brooding cat that layed around in the sunspot on the floor and came and went as she pleased. 

She longer chased the string. No longer batted the ball. No longer met me at the door wanting to play and frolick and no longer wanted to sleep with me. 

One day I *****ed to my mom about how much she had changed and was not longer playing or cuddling with me. 

My mom got very serious and told me to sit down that she had something important to tell me. 

She told me that when she was young and developing that the cat imprinted on me that I was her "person" and that she loved to play and frolick and cuddle with me, but once she was pregnant and had babies of her own, that now her priority and purpose had shifted to taking care of the babies and raising them. 

And that even now that the kittens were out of the house that much of the change in her persona and personality and her hormones and state of being were forever changed and that she would no longer be a playful, cuddly kitten but was now forever an adult, mother cat. 

She told me I would either have to learn to adapt and appreciate the few minutes of attention and interaction that the cat would now give me on her own terms, or I would have to get another young kitten if I wanted to play and frolick and cuddle all the time and that I would have to swap out one kitten after another in order to maintain that kind of entertainment with a kitten. 

Now I was probably about 13-14ish at the time but I could tell from my Mom's voice and serious face and eye contact etc that she wasn't really talking about cats. 

That was over 40 years ago and everything she said has proven to be completely on the money.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Men, women and babies all need to come with warning labels and instruction manuals and this needs to be something that is not hidden from the public narative. I'm beginning to think there is an actual international conspiracy to hide how much babies really do impact men, women and couples when they come onto the scene. I think it is a secret conspiracy to hide or at least seriously down play that impact so people are duped into having kids otherwise our species would die out in a single generation if people truly knew the impact. 

Women need to come with warning labels that they will morph into a completely different person when Baby arrives. That cute, cuddly, playful kitten that wants to be with you all the time and purrs and cuddles with you at night, will transform into a stressed, moody, anxious and serious person who is focused on the minutia of daily life and who will lose sleep and stress over whether clothes are sitting in the dryer too long after the delicate cycle is over. They need to have on their warning label that romance/sexuality with their partner will go from a high priority to somewhere between picking the blades of grass out of the cracks in the driveway and digging the Cheerios out of the seat cushions in the car behind the baby's carseat. 

Men need to come with warning labels that they priorities and hobbies and interests and their desire for romance and sexuality won't change hardly AT ALL with the arrival of Baby. If he was a horndog and a man of passion before Baby came along, he will remain so afterwards. He may learn how to warm bottles and change diapers and thaw out the frozen breast milk in the freezer, but he is still the same studhorse that wants to throw your legs over his shoulders and pile drive you with his ball sack slapping you in azz as he was before. 

And Babies need to come with warning labels that there are two phases to life in regards to children - there is the phase of your life before children. And there is the time of your life after children. Your world changes on dime the moment sperm meets the egg. Nothing is same afterwards. 

Ester Perel put it real well in her TED talk, one of the biggest ironies in the cosmos is Mother Nature makes us all horny and drawn to each other sexually to pair bond in order to bring offspring into the world and replicate ourselves.

But once that baby arrives, the first thing it does is destroy that sexual bond that brought us together in the first place.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Todd Feldman said:


> Do you believe it is a hard phase that we will get through or does this experience change a women forever? When we don't have the kids it is like old times. With kids it is hit or miss.


Now getting back to your specific situation. 

She is changed forever. She will never not be a mother. And once you think the kids are out of the house and you think you're on your own again (notice I didn't say when 'they' are on their own) then the grandchildren will start coming and it will cycle all over again but in a different manner. 

But honestly, it is a good sign that when the kids are gone that she can have little break-through moments of her old self. 

It is going to be different forever. But in some ways those changes can be positive and in some ways it may end up being good enough. 

But in other ways, things will suck and you will miss and even mourn your younger and childfree days. 

It *IS *a loss and you can go through an actual grief process of the denial, anger, depression etc. I did. I truly mourned the loss of my pre-child freedom and carefree lifestyle. I mourned the loss of happy, carefree, sexy wife that wanted to be with me and wanted to play with me all the time and wanted to cuddle up to me and purr at night. 

I did gain two great kids that I love dearly and that I enjoy watching grow and develop into individuals of their own and I look forward to them becoming their own persons in adulthood and the life adventures and experiences they had ahead of them. 

But the loss that I experienced with their arrival is real. It's ok to face and mourn that fact. It doesn't make you an asshole or a bad parent. It makes you human.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Todd Feldman said:


> Once they are older and more independent things go back a little bit to how things were before kids? Am I being too sensitive? Or is there just a shift that happen where we have lost what we used to have and I need to accept it and move on?


This depends on a million factors and the devil is in the details. 

Things will never truly be the way they were before because you will never not be parents now. You can have moments of intimacy and passion and personal connection.......... but the moment her mother ears hear a child cough or whimper or step out of bed, she will instantly switch back into mommy mode. 

As in all things in life, it is a matter of degrees. Yes, things are forever different and she will never again be that carefree, sex kitten that she was before kids. But as the kids become less dependent and less needy, some of her energies may shift back to a little more pursuit of personal fun and pleasure. 

We had kids later in life and by the time the kids were heading off to school, my wife's sexuality was getting that second wind right before pre-menopause and we actually ended up in the swinger lifestyle going to swinger clubs and parties and such for a number of years. 

HOWEVER there are unfortunately lots of couples that once that shift to parenthood is made, they are not able to reconnect as a couple. 

Again, matter of degrees. There are a number of women and even some men that never truly desired their partner but rather saw them as a means to end of having a home and family and once that was accomplished, they basically became a Spouse Appliance to provide a service whether that be rearing the children or paying the rent and they never have a personal, intimate relationship again. 

In those instances, you're probably better off cutting losses and moving on. 

However in most cases, with understanding and a willingness to work together to mutually provide for each others needs, they can learn to adapt and carry on. 

If they can understand where the other is coming from and what they are going through and each work with each other and help each other along, they can survive and even flourish. 

But if one is only seeing things through their own individual lens and is not willing to meet the other part way and is allowing their own resentment grow and taint the relationship, it can easily spell doom. 

As long as neither partner is an actual selfish, inflexible jerk that has to have their own way all the time, marital counseling can help. 

It helped us. It helped me see that I needed to adapt better and realize that I was not living in a sexual wasteland and desert but that it was more like a prairie rather than the lush jungle I was living in before kids. 

And it helped my wife understand that I really did have needs that were valid (HUSBAND'S LIVES MATTER) and that if she continued to steadfastly ignore and neglect my needs that she would end up as a single mother doing everything on her own. 

But marital counseling can only help each party effectively communicate their needs and the counselor can only explain how each's needs are valid. It cannot correct bad character and it cannot turn a mother into a sex kitten nor can it turn a virile man into another mother. 

It can help you work together to meet each of your needs to a degree where it is more costly to leave the marriage rather than remain in it. But it cannot transform your post-children lives back into your pre-children lives.


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## sensitiveguy (Mar 25, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> This depends on a million factors and the devil is in the details.
> 
> Things will never truly be the way they were before because you will never not be parents now. You can have moments of intimacy and passion and personal connection.......... but the moment her mother ears hear a child cough or whimper or step out of bed, she will instantly switch back into mommy mode.
> 
> ...


wow, your insight is well received. Great job explaining the marital relationship after kids. I applaud you for developing this understanding.


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## examp (Aug 6, 2020)

I notice your post just after mine and yours is the first I am replying to. I have my own problems but others are much easier to solve. From what I read of yours is that your wife needs space. You are working from home and on top of her all the time. When she says meditate she means space. I dont think it is the children. She cant unload to you because you are the problem. I dont think it will improve with time.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Todd Feldman said:


> Do you believe it is a hard phase that we will get through or does this experience change a women forever? When we don't have the kids it is like old times. With kids it is hit or miss.


it is hard when kids are small.You are supposed to love and enjoy them and be happy but in reality you exhausted all the time. Not just physically. Mentally you reduced to diapers, laundry, cartoons. You lose the sense of yourself. 
in my case things got better forme as children grew, start going to preschool, school. I started working.

does your wife have any time for yourself? Goes out with girlfriends, or for massage, yoga, or just walk or bike ride?
Do you have regular time for the two of you together, without kids?

are you helping with kids around the house after your work hiurs? I know that you were working and would like to rest instead. But the truth is she is working too. She can not close the Computer and say I’m done for today. She is at work 24 hours, and mentally it is very exhausting. That’s why the period when children are small is when the most resentments start. How you two deal with it, will affect the rest of your marriage.
It is a good sign that you see the problem and try to do something about it. 
Would she consider therapy for herself ? It doesnt have to be years of therapy, even couple months would be helpful. She recognizes that tgere is a problem when she says she needs to meditate. Frankly she can meditate in the evening, or take three minutes now and then. 
i think it is not too late for the two of you. talk about it together. Establish hours of your work, when your whole focus is work, and you are available to her only in emergencies. But after your work hours you join her in taking care of the family. Because she can not leave her job.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

double post


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Good Post! @oldshirt

Great analogy, one that I experienced, many times while growing up with....
Brothers and sisters, cats and dogs and all types of pets.

My advice on the topic of pets.
Spay them, neuter them, spare them getting mature, spare yourself the sorrow of losing them to their natural urges, that natural cycle of life.

Hopefully, neutering human (pets) or slaves, does not become the rage it was in ancient times. Mostly male eunuchs.

This could happen, history has a habit of repeating itself.

This, as each and every new generation of young are not prone to learning about some old story about some old past histories.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Honestly, I hear a lot of excuses here.

I know a ton of women in my life who are moms and they are just as sweet as they ever were. Or even more patient and kind as a result of the experience.

Sure moms of young kids are more tired and harried than if they didn't have young kids, but motherhood is no excuse for being a moody, bad partner.

Don't blame poor behavior management and personality on motherhood.


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## sensitiveguy (Mar 25, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Honestly, I hear a lot of excuses here.
> 
> I know a ton of women in my life who are moms and they are just as sweet as they ever were. Or even more patient and kind as a result of the experience.
> 
> ...


I agree, I believe it is a stress management thing. She needs to learn how to deal with stress. Unfortunately her whole family has the same problem. Which I only realized years after knowing her when kids came into the picture for her sister and brother. Brother is currently in rehab for alcohol with three kids and divorced. Sister is divorced and takes pain meds. Parents are still married but live separate lives. I do have to say they are all good people and always have been nice and good to me. Just do not know how to handle stress. I am afraid this so strong in her dna, she cannot overcome it.


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## sensitiveguy (Mar 25, 2017)

WandaJ said:


> it is hard when kids are small.You are supposed to love and enjoy them and be happy but in reality you exhausted all the time. Not just physically. Mentally you reduced to diapers, laundry, cartoons. You lose the sense of yourself.
> in my case things got better forme as children grew, start going to preschool, school. I started working.
> 
> does your wife have any time for yourself? Goes out with girlfriends, or for massage, yoga, or just walk or bike ride?
> ...


She always says she is too tired at night to mediate or do anything else other than vegge out. I used to work anywhere in the house because I just liked being near the kids even if I was not playing with them. She did not like that, so we communicated that. I always work in the office and close the door now. My job is a professor so my work life is super flexible. I can be available when she needs me. I have been there taking the kids out during the week since they were babies, then do work at night. I also bought her "dream" house in an expensive state. I feel like I am doing a lot, being the provider for the family but also being there when she needs me to help with the kids. But it is never enough for her I guess.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

You guys are young, and marriage and love are not a straight line. They have eddys and flows, that wax and wane constantly. PLUS, first 5-10 years with young kids is deadly stressful. Your routines are wiped away, and there is near constant exhaustion. One thing that we made absolutely a non negotialble was how we made time for one another. Love my kids to death, however, one week a year, my in-laws took both the kids and we went away. Became newlyweds for a week. I got some heat from my eldest as she thought that we should do two weeks with them, instead of one just Mom and Dad, and later that year, another week with the kids. Now that she is married, she sees that out of most of her friends, my wife and I are married longest, and do not have a divorce in our background. Decompression is a necessity. The body and the mind react to stress, and not in a good way.


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## examp (Aug 6, 2020)

Todd Feldman said:


> . I also bought her "dream" house in an expensive state. I feel like I am doing a lot, being the provider for the family but also being there when she needs me to help with the kids. But it is never enough for her I guess.


You haven't replied to me but as you go along you keep telling us more. Your last remark is quite revealing. I would have imagined that a 'professor' marries someone similar perhaps in a different field, I doubt this is the case here. I gather you overwhelm her. Buying her the best of everything isnt always the answer. As you say she needs something more, and until she gets it she wont get better.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

The stuff that Oldshirt wrote is great. And being a mother is more demanding than most other people can imagine. 

The following is also very significant:


Todd Feldman said:


> Brother is currently in rehab for alcohol with three kids and divorced. Sister is divorced and takes pain meds. Parents are still married but live separate lives.


She has not been taught how to communicate. What was _your_ family like?

I think you can't go back to how things were before, but you can make things better. 

)As to "when a marriage is over" in the thread title, I tend to say: it may be over if there's addiction, abuse, or infidelity, *for which the offender refuses to take responsibility*.)


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Todd Feldman said:


> She always says she is too tired at night to mediate or do anything else other than vegge out. I used to work anywhere in the house because I just liked being near the kids even if I was not playing with them. She did not like that, so we communicated that. I always work in the office and close the door now. My job is a professor so my work life is super flexible. I can be available when she needs me. I have been there taking the kids out during the week since they were babies, then do work at night. I also bought her "dream" house in an expensive state. I feel like I am doing a lot, being the provider for the family but also being there when she needs me to help with the kids. But it is never enough for her I guess.


Well, being tired in the evening - that's normal to the point. It sounds to me more like there is either depression or might be biological (like thyroid problems, that was my case).
The thing is nothing will change if she doesn't make a decision that things need to change. Are you both able to have a heart to heart talk about it? She needs to hear that this is affecting the whole family, and your future together. Sometimes that's what needed .

I know that you are doing a lot. But let me ask again - does she have any life outside of the house and children? Because if not, that can be one big depression trap for many women.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Laurentium said:


> As to "when a marriage is over" in the thread title, I tend to say: it may be over if there's addiction, abuse, or infidelity, *for which the offender refuses to take responsibility*.)


I think not taking responsibility, period, may be that point, regardless of what it's about. If there's a pattern of not taking responsibility, that tells me there's a nearly-complete lack of empathy for what their partner goes through. I'm learning more and more how difficult, and how important, empathy is. Just because it comes relatively easily for me doesn't mean it's that way for my partner. Empathy has its roots in our past, not our present. As you pointed out, early family relationships are very important.

That stuff "Tell me about your mother." "Tell me about your father." The cliche lines from movie scenes depicting a counseling session. They're not jokes after all. There's more than one thinks behind the answers to those questions.


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## examp (Aug 6, 2020)

I have already written I consider the marriage over when the woman doesnt need the man. A marriage is not a partnership. It is two people needing each other and the woman needing the man more. As we know in olden times one had more than wife but never more than one husband. Once she decides she doesnt need him even if she doesnt directly not want him it is over.


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## sensitiveguy (Mar 25, 2017)

Laurentium said:


> The stuff that Oldshirt wrote is great. And being a mother is more demanding than most other people can imagine.
> 
> The following is also very significant:
> 
> ...


My family communicates more, but my family problems are where her family is strong. My family uses passive aggressive techniques to get there way. Her family is good as being together but bad at romantic relationships. Mine is opposite. Pressure from family etc.


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## sensitiveguy (Mar 25, 2017)

WandaJ said:


> Well, being tired in the evening - that's normal to the point. It sounds to me more like there is either depression or might be biological (like thyroid problems, that was my case).
> The thing is nothing will change if she doesn't make a decision that things need to change. Are you both able to have a heart to heart talk about it? She needs to hear that this is affecting the whole family, and your future together. Sometimes that's what needed .
> 
> I know that you are doing a lot. But let me ask again - does she have any life outside of the house and children? Because if not, that can be one big depression trap for many women.


She does not really. I wished she would run do yoga etc. she knows she should but always says there is never time because of house and kids. When she is around her family she reverts to being nice again.


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## sensitiveguy (Mar 25, 2017)

WandaJ said:


> Well, being tired in the evening - that's normal to the point. It sounds to me more like there is either depression or might be biological (like thyroid problems, that was my case).
> The thing is nothing will change if she doesn't make a decision that things need to change. Are you both able to have a heart to heart talk about it? She needs to hear that this is affecting the whole family, and your future together. Sometimes that's what needed .
> 
> I know that you are doing a lot. But let me ask again - does she have any life outside of the house and children? Because if not, that can be one big depression trap for many women.


We have these conversation and she agrees which is good but never does anything substantial.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Todd Feldman said:


> She does not really. I wished she would run do yoga etc. she knows she should but always says there is never time because of house and kids. When she is around her family she reverts to being nice again.


Since talking is not doing anything, you'll need to make it really clear to her that either she does something about it or the marriage is in real jeopardy. Maybe she should take good look at possiblity of either therapy or therapy and medication.

Posters here bring their own experiences. My experience - as a woman who also at the moment (and on and off in my marriage) finds it hard to do anything extra besides what's a must. There are two reasons for this in my case: depression that comes from the years of slow desintegration of marriage, topped with auto-immune disorder. I lost joy in things that I used to like. So now I got tired of being tired, and besides going through divorce requires a lot of work and energy.: I started therapy and I also started medication. it seems to be working. Would she be open to that?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

In my opinion you have some people with social disorders that learn how to cope. Under ideal circumstances things take effort but are sustainable. Now add to that the stress and energy needed to raise children and you will see someone have to toss all their coping skills out the window as they struggle to just make it to the end of the day. 

This is what happens to bi-polar people. When things are calm and life has minimal responsibilities, they can get by from day to day. A bi-polar personality also lends itself to some super happy-go-lucky highs when things are ideal. Then once someone like that reaches their mid thirties those days are over and responsibilities have set in and are significant. They can no longer cope. The years of bi-polar mood swings have also taken an emotional toll psychologically on the nervous system. This person then becomes nonstop irritable and impossible to be social and/or patient.

I am NOT saying the OP's wife is bi-polar, but just using this as an example of how someone that seems normal at a younger age can drastically change and become impossible as the years go by. The irritation and frustration can have other sources, but you need to deal with those things quickly or else resentment and contempt will set in and your marriage is over. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## sensitiveguy (Mar 25, 2017)

Taxman said:


> You guys are young, and marriage and love are not a straight line. They have eddys and flows, that wax and wane constantly. PLUS, first 5-10 years with young kids is deadly stressful. Your routines are wiped away, and there is near constant exhaustion. One thing that we made absolutely a non negotialble was how we made time for one another. Love my kids to death, however, one week a year, my in-laws took both the kids and we went away. Became newlyweds for a week. I got some heat from my eldest as she thought that we should do two weeks with them, instead of one just Mom and Dad, and later that year, another week with the kids. Now that she is married, she sees that out of most of her friends, my wife and I are married longest, and do not have a divorce in our background. Decompression is a necessity. The body and the mind react to stress, and not in a good way.


Good to know. I hope we can get out of this phase soon. We have a 8 and 6 year old. I can't imagine not seeing them everday.


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## sensitiveguy (Mar 25, 2017)

badsanta said:


> In my opinion you have some people with social disorders that learn how to cope. Under ideal circumstances things take effort but are sustainable. Now add to that the stress and energy needed to raise children and you will see someone have to toss all their coping skills out the window as they struggle to just make it to the end of the day.
> 
> This is what happens to bi-polar people. When things are calm and life has minimal responsibilities, they can get by from day to day. A bi-polar personality also lends itself to some super happy-go-lucky highs when things are ideal. Then once someone like that reaches their mid thirties those days are over and responsibilities have set in and are significant. They can no longer cope. The years of bi-polar mood swings have also taken an emotional toll psychologically on the nervous system. This person then becomes nonstop irritable and impossible to be social and/or patient.
> 
> ...


I agree. Her life when she met me was easy and no stress. I believe I married her too young for me. I should have waited until 40. I am 43 now and she is 38. I did not realize her inability to deal with stress. She is aware of it. When she is not moody things are good otherwise. My hope is that when the kids go to school she will have more time to give to herself. Could be wishful thinking. She is aware of all the problems with her family and says she does not want to go that route. My kids are everything and I guess I am willing to be miserable with the kids.


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## sensitiveguy (Mar 25, 2017)

WandaJ said:


> Since talking is not doing anything, you'll need to make it really clear to her that either she does something about it or the marriage is in real jeopardy. Maybe she should take good look at possiblity of either therapy or therapy and medication.
> 
> Posters here bring their own experiences. My experience - as a woman who also at the moment (and on and off in my marriage) finds it hard to do anything extra besides what's a must. There are two reasons for this in my case: depression that comes from the years of slow desintegration of marriage, topped with auto-immune disorder. I lost joy in things that I used to like. So now I got tired of being tired, and besides going through divorce requires a lot of work and energy.: I started therapy and I also started medication. it seems to be working. Would she be open to that?


I feel like when the kids go to school full time she will have more time to take care of herself. She does not work much. I also had health problems when the kids came, Hashimoto, Lyme etc. That put a toll on the marriage as it was too hard to help me and the kids. Luckily, I discovered detox methods and cured myself. My energy and brain are doing great. I had the strength to figure out a solution. I am not sure she does.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Todd Feldman said:


> I feel like when the kids go to school full time she will have more time to take care of herself. She does not work much. I also had health problems when the kids came, Hashimoto, Lyme etc. That put a toll on the marriage as it was too hard to help me and the kids. Luckily, I discovered detox methods and cured myself. My energy and brain are doing great. I had the strength to figure out a solution. I am not sure she does.


it would be great if she joined you in the lifestyle change. I guess she is not there yet. 

Yes, when kids went to school that was like a new life. She might finally find the old self when that happens. Let's hope this will work for you!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Todd Feldman said:


> I agree. Her life when she met me was easy and no stress. I believe I married her too young for me. I should have waited until 40. I am 43 now and she is 38. I did not realize her inability to deal with stress. She is aware of it. When she is not moody things are good otherwise. My hope is that when the kids go to school she will have more time to give to herself. Could be wishful thinking. She is aware of all the problems with her family and says she does not want to go that route. My kids are everything and I guess I am willing to be miserable with the kids.


Regardless of what is causing the problems, you need to get to the source and deal with it sooner or later. This means finding a family therapist. Otherwise frustration turns to anger, then evolves into resentment, and culminates in contempt. Once you reach a stage where one of the two of you feel contempt for the other, then the marriage might as well be over. 

You think you can wait for school to start? Think again! Wait until you have teenage children in your house and you are dealing with their suicidal friends and drugs in your house. Then you find out later that it was your children that were the being bad influence. Right now you are in first grade and preparing for the tougher stuff that has yet to come. 

Yes I'll just put my head in the sand and once school starts with the kids going off to first grade it will all be better. Ummmm, No! Find a therapist and learn how to have a nourishing and healthy home for your family. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## sensitiveguy (Mar 25, 2017)

I agree, we continually talk about it, and she agrees but need to put my foot down on really working on herself. Her best friend had the same issue and almost got divorced, but she turned to yoga and changed her. I was like yes, please do that too. But never happen.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

I like the kitten analogy as well. I’ve always thought that women go through a series of “software updates” like Windows. There’s the dating, engagement, marriage, baby fever, mom, menopause and grandma updates. So like Windows, you get an update downloaded and some features are improved, some look different or are removed all together. Of course, if you get the “divorce” update, financially, you may be on the subscription plan if you know what I mean.

Attachment theory and family of origin are huge drivers of marital success or failure. Triggers that weren’t there before kids suddenly manifest as she sees the kids at the same age something terrible happened to her growing up. So she becomes avoidant with the husband and attaches to the kids instead. So an enmeshed relationship with kids starts because it’s emotionally safer (no criticism, no sex demands, you control the emotional intimacy level, no baggage, etc). This backfires of course when the kids become teenagers and/or move out.

I don’t advocate divorce but I would say it’s over when there’s no sexual desire/attraction, it’s apparent you’re just legally-obligated friends, they love you like a sibling and their primary goal is to not be alone. It’s all about longevity and avoiding the shame of being alone at that point. 

I recently read a new trend is “living apart together” where you’re not divorced but you don’t live together so that stress is gone.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## sensitiveguy (Mar 25, 2017)

aaarghdub said:


> I like the kitten analogy as well. I’ve always thought that women go through a series of “software updates” like Windows. There’s the dating, engagement, marriage, baby fever, mom, menopause and grandma updates. So like Windows, you get an update downloaded and some features are improved, some look different or are removed all together. Of course, if you get the “divorce” update, financially, you may be on the subscription plan if you know what I mean.
> 
> Attachment theory and family of origin are huge drivers of marital success or failure. Triggers that weren’t there before kids suddenly manifest as she sees the kids at the same age something terrible happened to her growing up. So she becomes avoidant with the husband and attaches to the kids instead. So an enmeshed relationship with kids starts because it’s emotionally safer (no criticism, no sex demands, you control the emotional intimacy level, no baggage, etc). This backfires of course when the kids become teenagers and/or move out.
> 
> ...


Software update is a good analogy. Grandparents change a lot too when they become grandparents.


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## sensitiveguy (Mar 25, 2017)

Last remark, is that I see this kind of behavior among my friends wives as well. I seem wives yelling at their husbands for very little in public. I have to say my wife never does that in public. Actually when her mom is around she is so nice. Only when no one is around. I see this as everyone facing the same issues, wife is overwhelmed and takes it out on the oblivious husband, who does not understand what wife is going through. Jealous that husband gets to keep his job and hobbies while she suffers. That the duty of the kids is always too much. Same thing happen to her brother and his wife. Wife became a huge "*****" according to her family and her nice brother suffered. Her sister is super mean to her ex and now boyfriend. That has always been the case though even before kids. She is kind of the black sheep. Seems like same thing. Seems like this is the norm at least in my surroundings.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Todd Feldman said:


> I am afraid this so strong in her dna, she cannot overcome it.


She can overcome it, but the thing is... she has to want to. She has to acknowledge the problem, want to fix it, and put in the work to fix it. This isn't in her DNA. Her parents were not taught how to communicate or handle stress, so she learned from watching her parents. Her parents probably learned from their parents, and so on. She CAN put an end to this cycle and learn to be better, if she wants to. If she doesn't, guess what your children are going to pick up on and repeat in their own relationships?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Todd Feldman said:


> Last remark, is that I see this kind of behavior among my friends wives as well. I seem wives yelling at their husbands for very little in public. I have to say my wife never does that in public. Actually when her mom is around she is so nice. Only when no one is around. I see this as everyone facing the same issues, wife is overwhelmed and takes it out on the oblivious husband, who does not understand what wife is going through. Jealous that husband gets to keep his job and hobbies while she suffers. That the duty of the kids is always too much. Same thing happen to her brother and his wife. Wife became a huge "***" according to her family and her nice brother suffered. Her sister is super mean to her ex and now boyfriend. That has always been the case though even before kids. She is kind of the black sheep. Seems like same thing. Seems like this is the norm at least in my surroundings.


If you think it's the NORM for wives to treat their husbands like **** I don't even know what to say.

Where I come from sure there are assholes, but generally, emotionally healthy adults expect not to be treated like **** and will not stay in marriages with absolute *****es.

I've also gotta say, especially as a mother and a woman who was a SAHM for 13 years (and has a lot of friends who were, as well), it's really amusing to see you guys sucked into believing that being a SAHM is soooo hard mentally and emotionally that you are making excuses for poor behavior from your partners.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Todd Feldman said:


> Last remark, is that I see this kind of behavior among my friends wives as well. I seem wives yelling at their husbands for very little in public


I know these two. But in my circles I see even more husbands who are barking at their wives. Either each of us lives in different universes, or more likely, each of us looks for what's familiar and fits their worldview.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Regardless of what is causing the problems, you need to get to the source and deal with it sooner or later. This means finding a family therapist. Otherwise frustration turns to anger, then evolves into resentment, and culminates in contempt. Once you reach a stage where one of the two of you feel contempt for the other, then the marriage might as well be over.
> 
> You think you can wait for school to start? Think again! Wait until you have teenage children in your house and you are dealing with their suicidal friends and drugs in your house. Then you find out later that it was your children that were the being bad influence. Right now you are in first grade and preparing for the tougher stuff that has yet to come.
> 
> ...



This! Badsanta is right, you have your head in the sand


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

Todd Feldman said:


> I agree, we continually talk about it, and she agrees but need to put my foot down on really working on herself. Her best friend had the same issue and almost got divorced, but she turned to yoga and changed her. I was like yes, please do that too. But never happen.


If your marriage issues are truly just a matter of poor communication, marriage counseling might help. But keep in mind, there is no "quick fix." The counselor - assuming they are good - needs time to observe how you both interact and make recommendations based on that. That takes time. You'll both have to make an effort to continue sessions for several months. 

I think - aside from that option - you need to get to the bottom of what's troubling your W, or leading to the latent hostility... basically determine whether this is something both of you can learn to improve on. 

--- If your W asks for help with the kids or time alone, or _SOMETHING_, and her attitude still doesn't improve after she gets what she asks for, then you most likely have bigger problems here than just miscommunication. Be wary of requests from her that only lead to more demands, not any sort of appreciation or improvement in her mood. I'm thinking the ideal might be for her to vocalize why she's unhappy and what you can do to help. Maybe you wake up earlier and let her sleep in a bit, and put the kids to bed by yourself so she can have time to do what she wants... something like that?

If you're the one working and bringing in $$$, she needs to respect that & give you space. If she doesn't want to watch the kids by herself from 9 to 5 (or whatever your hours are), she should go to work too.


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