# Do men have female friends they don't want to sleep with?



## I'mAllIn

I'm having an ongoing discussion with a group of friends started by an article we read in some random magazine. The article said that it's actually good for people to have opposite sexmale friends. The basic premise of the article was that harmless flirting and the ability to ask opposite sex friends advice and questions was a good thing, as long as there are clear boundaries and no secrets.
However, some of my male friends say no heterosexual man has female friends that they wouldn't sleep with if given half a chance. Do you guys feel that's true?


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## uphillbattle

For the most part this is true. If a guy keeps talking to a female as a "friend" for a long time its because he is waiting for a moment when that door opens to the bedroom. Yes there are exceptions to this rule, but they are rare.


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## Entropy3000

I'mAllIn said:


> I'm having an ongoing discussion with a group of friends started by an article we read in some random magazine. The article said that it's actually good for people to have opposite sexmale friends. The basic premise of the article was that harmless flirting and the ability to ask opposite sex friends advice and questions was a good thing, as long as there are clear boundaries and no secrets.
> *However, some of my male friends say no heterosexual man has female friends that they wouldn't sleep with if given half a chance. Do you guys feel that's true?*


Close enough. Many men would not act on this impulse but they could be pulled into an EA that could lead to taking action.

I think having *close* opposite sex friends in a marriage is asking for trouble. Why take the risk? The divorce rate is extremely high now. Infidelity is very high. Why go there? Married men are not entirely safe however, single men are for the most part out to repopulate the planet at some level or another. So a single male friend for a married woman is especially risky in my opinion. Some men prey on married women as easy targets. It almost always starts out as a friendship unless the woman is looking for some quick sex. 

There are articles on every subject that suggest all sorts of things. Is the articale about married people or about people dating? There is a big difference.

Please post the link to the article.


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## PBear

I have a number of female friends that I don't want to sleep with. I can understand some people's hesitation, but if my SO told me that I wasn't allowed to go for lunch with one of my friends, we'd be having words.

I always shared when I was doing something with my friends, and my texts are always on the up and up. My stbxw knew my female friends (they were co-workers who became friends for whatever reason), and I knew their husbands. Did activities with their husbands as well, separate from my friends.

When I did cheat, it was with someone totally outside my social circle. Can I say that if one of them made a pass at me I wouldn't respond? Well, I can say that it would be no more likely than any other woman. I guess the risk is the whole emotional affair, but again, what's the option? Eliminating contact from half the worlds population?

C


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## I'mAllIn

Entropy3000 said:


> Close enough. Many men would not act on this impulse but they could be pulled into an EA that could lead to taking action.
> 
> I think having *close* opposite sex friends in a marriage is asking for trouble. Why take the risk. The divorce rate is extremely high now. Infidelity is very high. Why go there? Married men are not entirely safe however, single men are for the most part out to repopulate the planet at some level or another. So a single male friend for a married woman is especially risky in my opinion. Some men prey on married women as easy targets.
> 
> There are articles on every subject that suggest all sorts of things. Is the articale about married people or about people dating? There is a big difference.
> 
> Please post the link to the article.


The article was about married people. We read the article at a coffee shop, and now I can't find it on line, but I'm still looking. I think the magazine may have been older as I remember it having spring type advertisments in it.
I do agree with you that married people with single friends of the opposite sex is a little dangerous. But then you beg the question-if you have a married opposite sex friend and they divorce does that mean you have to end the friendship?


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## Halien

I think you have to realize that people on forums can have completely different lives, where something that seems odd to one might be completely normal to another. All of my female friends that I see face to face are part of my business networking.

That said, several are pretty close friends, but I would not sleep with them. Maybe it would've been different when I was in my twenties, but I value the relationship more that getting into a nightmare situation that would ruin our lives. It would ruin our lives, so I just don't go there in my thoughts. Seems that in my state, people who cheat tend to lose half their retirement as a result, so a hormone-induced encounter is a very expensive proposition.

One example is an HR manager in a division that I used to work in. When my daughter wanted to discuss HR certifications as a possible backup plan to her college degree, I had no qualms about setting up a web meeting to talk to my friend. Early in the friendship, she seemed to be pushing it into dangerous ground, but I'm good at playing dumb - it comes natural 

My wife has several male friends from her profession, also. the key is that we both know about each other's opposite sex friends, and we are both open-book about emails, phones, and social media.

Maybe its worth mentioning that my wife and I both have a zero-tolerance policy for cheating. One cheats, the marriage is done. Reconciliation might be possible, but the point of view is that you can't be in a relationship with two people at the same time and consider it a marriage.


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## nice777guy

I've done a LOT of reflecting on this over the last 2 years.

I think men and women can truly be just friends.

There are some women that I've known for many years that I'm truly just friends with.

There are women I work with who I consider to be friends.

In most cases, I find these women to be attractive.

I flirt with some - and not with others.

Now - I will NOT say that I could never see myself crossing a boundary - mine or theirs - at some point. But - it hasn't happened yet and I have no "secret plans" in place. 

I used to joke with one of my friends that I was actively working a 10 year plan to seduce her - that way it would be subtle enough that she wouldn't catch onto me.

Now - my (STBX)W "friend zoned" me for all of High School. In THAT case - I was truly working and plotting and scheming almost the whole time to get out of that zone! Took me all of four years - but I finally broke through the barrier.


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## nice777guy

I'mAllIn said:


> But then you beg the question-if you have a married opposite sex friend and they divorce does that mean you have to end the friendship?


Ha!!!

Now THAT'S an interesting question!

That girl I chased in high school and I will celebrate our 17th anniversary in December - shortly before we will finalize our divorce sometime hopefully in January!

So far - my married female friends have probably given me "more" attention - mostly electronic (Facebook, e-mails) than they have in a long time. They check in on me - ask me how things are going - and once in a blue moon mention setting me up when I'm finally single!

BUT - to quote one of my favorite movies - "I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd" - especially with those who I've known for a long time.

I had one friend ask me to meet her for lunch about a year ago. Looking back - I wish I would have gone. It would have been fine.

I have another friend who is married and I've known for a long time who is frequently teasing me about how I don't leave the house enough. Her - I'm avoiding - because I'm not convinced that her marriage is stable - despite her telling me otherwise.

Would LOVE to hear more thoughts on this.


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## Entropy3000

I'mAllIn said:


> The article was about married people. We read the article at a coffee shop, and now I can't find it on line, but I'm still looking. I think the magazine may have been older as I remember it having spring type advertisments in it.
> I do agree with you that married people with single friends of the opposite sex is a little dangerous. *But then you beg the question-if you have a married opposite sex friend and they divorce does that mean you have to end the friendship?*


Maybe. I have opposite sex friends and colleagues. I learned I cannot have close female friends the hard way.

It comes down to how you define friendship and what commitment that friendship entails.

Does it involve hanging out with that person one on one? Like meeting up with pseudo dates?

Does it involve being alone with that person at their home or yours?

Are there private little secrets shared by you and that person separate from the spouses.

Is there flirting and sexual stuff discussed? Are personal things discussed about the marriage?

How often is the contact. I have friends I don't contact for weeks or months sometimes. I may have an exchnage of a few emails, usually to a group of us. 

If this involves texting exhanges more than two or three in a month for a guy this is unusual. If it is many texts everyday then that is an affair. I would not be texting a guy just to chat. I may make a comment on facebook. I have facebook chat turned off.

The thing is at least for me anytime I invest in other folks is time I do not invest in my family, my work or my hobbies. My wife is my best female friend. I am her best male friend. That works for us. There may be female friends I see in a group but I never go meet up with a female friend for non work purposes. What needs am I trying to get met if I do?

For many they are just continuing the single kind of life style they had when they were dating. Even when they had a steady mate they were still very free as they are single. But for many when you get married there is a commitment to have boundaries that will prevent problems from surfacing.

Again what is the nature of that friendship and what investment is one putting into that relationship. I persoanlly think that the appearance fo inappropriate behavior can be very damaging. All marriages have their ups and downs. A spouse running to an opposite sex friend after an argument with a spouse is a very bad idea indeed for example.

So for me I would find it odd if my wife said after coming in late. "Yeah Bob and I decided to go out to a movie after we had dinner." "Then we stopped into the bar for a few drinks." "He and I are driving up the coast this weekend to the wine country while you are at work." "No just the two of us." "He wants to talk to me about the trouble he and his wife are having so we need some space to have a real chat about it."

Now take that same conversation and substitute Mary for Bob. She for He. Husband for wife. A whole different message is given. Why do you think that is?


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## Entropy3000

nice777guy said:


> I've done a LOT of reflecting on this over the last 2 years.
> 
> I think men and women can truly be just friends.
> 
> There are some women that I've known for many years that I'm truly just friends with.
> 
> There are women I work with who I consider to be friends.
> 
> In most cases, I find these women to be attractive.
> 
> I flirt with some - and not with others.
> 
> Now - I will NOT say that I could never see myself crossing a boundary - mine or theirs - at some point. But - it hasn't happened yet and I have no "secret plans" in place.
> 
> I used to joke with one of my friends that I was actively working a 10 year plan to seduce her - that way it would be subtle enough that she wouldn't catch onto me.
> 
> Now - my (STBX)W "friend zoned" me for all of High School. In THAT case - I was truly working and plotting and scheming almost the whole time to get out of that zone! Took me all of four years - but I finally broke through the barrier.


You are emotionally transitioning from being married to being single. I think this impacts your views on this. I am just saying you are seeing things from a different perspective these days. In no way am I being critical here. Just an observation ... from my current view.


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## I'mAllIn

There's no doubt in my mind that if one person in a male/female friendship suddenly becomes more available than the other it seriously changes the dynamic for everyone involved. The suddenly available person no longer has the same limits on their behavior, so if there was any attraction at all I think there would be less inclination to control it. If the still committed friend knows there is attraction and is smart at all there would have to be some concern for the friendship changing, and for the spouses of both I'd think freaking out would be in order (I've recently been in this spot). When both parties are happily committed it's highly unlikely that both would experience a sudden moment of weakness at the same time and find each other so irresistable that they couldn't control themselves. When only one is committed and the other is suddenly free to do as they please or even maybe looking for a revenge hook up all bets are off.

This isn't the article that started our debate, but it's one I found during the ongoing conversation that I really agree with:
Can Men and Women Be Friends? | Psychology Today


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## Entropy3000

I think we can all agree that there needs to be clearly defined agreed upon boundaries around this topic. What different couples agree to will vary for many reasons whcih makes sense.
This also probably evolves over time. I think it is easiest to have boundaries from the get go as opposed to trying to put the genie back in the bottle.


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## nice777guy

I'mAllIn said:


> There's no doubt in my mind that if one person in a male/female friendship suddenly becomes more available than the other it seriously changes the dynamic for everyone involved. The suddenly available person no longer has the same limits on their behavior, so if there was any attraction at all I think there would be less inclination to control it. If the still committed friend knows there is attraction and is smart at all there would have to be some concern for the friendship changing, and for the spouses of both I'd think freaking out would be in order (I've recently been in this spot). When both parties are happily committed it's highly unlikely that both would experience a sudden moment of weakness at the same time and find each other so irresistable that they couldn't control themselves. When only one is committed and the other is suddenly free to do as they please or even maybe looking for a revenge hook up all bets are off.
> 
> This isn't the article that started our debate, but it's one I found during the ongoing conversation that I really agree with:
> Can Men and Women Be Friends? | Psychology Today


Entropy - no offense taken. If I thought I had the answers - I wouldn't be turning it over in my head so much. Kind of fun and interesting stuff to think about! Much more fun figuring out male/female stuff than it is going through the kitchen and arguing over spatulas!!!

I'mAllIn - I agree - a change in availability increases the risk greatly. I've had one friend - who is in a weaker marriage - who's husband became concerned about our friendship once I was officially on the road to divorce. She was truly just a friend - but both she and I understood and respected her Husband's newly established boundary and are now no longer speaking.


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## I'mAllIn

I think the main thing I'm finding in the discussion between my friends (male & female, married & single, all ages) is that the answer to this question is so much about their level of confidence in their relationship(s) and their past experiences. The younger ones who are either still single or in new relationships and have not been hurt are more sure that it's stupid to think that every man wants to sleep with his female friends. The ones who have been burned wouldn't trust their wives with a Tibetan Monk. I have a male friend that most people would not trust as far as they could throw him and I talk to him about everything, but because I've never given my husband one minute of reason to doubt me he doesn't. He on the other hand recently had a little freak out, so I watch him like a hawk. Just depends on experience I think.


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## Shaggy

Well' there are the fat ones...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000

I'mAllIn said:


> There's no doubt in my mind that if one person in a male/female friendship suddenly becomes more available than the other it seriously changes the dynamic for everyone involved. The suddenly available person no longer has the same limits on their behavior, so if there was any attraction at all I think there would be less inclination to control it. If the still committed friend knows there is attraction and is smart at all there would have to be some concern for the friendship changing, and for the spouses of both I'd think freaking out would be in order (I've recently been in this spot). When both parties are happily committed it's highly unlikely that both would experience a sudden moment of weakness at the same time and find each other so irresistable that they couldn't control themselves. When only one is committed and the other is suddenly free to do as they please or even maybe looking for a revenge hook up all bets are off.
> 
> This isn't the article that started our debate, but it's one I found during the ongoing conversation that I really agree with:
> Can Men and Women Be Friends? | Psychology Today


I absolutely believe men and women can have friendships. Certainly while being single it is a must. I think there can be platonic relationships with the usual sexual tension.

The article is in no way at odds with what my stance is. My stance is about opposite sex friends in the context of marriage. Seemingly two contradictory ideas can co-exist. Once a man is married and his best friend becomes his wife, he has less need for that close external female freindship. He has a close female friend. This is a good thing.

I love the picture that goes with the article. Pick out the married couples please? Yeah I know marriage was not the point.

So if we assume that in any given opposite sex relationship there is for the sake of argument a 95% chance it can stay platonic, does that mean it is prudent to have that relationship in the context of a marriage? How about having five close opposite sex friends at that 95% ? Hmmm the odds are getting dicey now. Of course it is not about predictable per centages. It depends on so many other factors. A spouse is going to have a level of vulnerablitiy to an EA that will vary from day to day, month to month and year to yearts based on married life and related challenges.

So sure there are all sorts of benefits with opposite sex friends. But friends with benefits is always lurking. It is a matter of risk versus reward. How important is fidelity to a given relationship? What is the cost of having the additional boundary of not having any close opposite sex friends. Priorities. YMMV.


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## nice777guy

I'mAllIn said:


> I think the main thing I'm finding in the discussion between my friends (male & female, married & single, all ages) is that the answer to this question is so much about their level of confidence in their relationship(s) and their past experiences. The younger ones who are either still single or in new relationships and have not been hurt are more sure that it's stupid to think that every man wants to sleep with his female friends. The ones who have been burned wouldn't trust their wives with a Tibetan Monk. I have a male friend that most people would not trust as far as they could throw him and I talk to him about everything, but because I've never given my husband one minute of reason to doubt me he doesn't. He on the other hand recently had a little freak out, so I watch him like a hawk. Just depends on experience I think.


Your husband may trust you - but if he has reason to not trust this guy (like - if the guy has a penis - and most do - just assume he does and don't ask to see it or anything) - then there is still a problem.


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## Zzyzx

I don't waste my time with female friends outside of the workplace or social milieus I might find myself in (e.g., bars, social dancing, church, etc.). Gives me the wrong mentality around women, I don't want to be friendzoned, I need to keep my edge and being just friends kills that.


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## Entropy3000

Shaggy said:


> Well' there are the fat ones...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

There is some validity here. While not PC the hotter the wife the more risk of a male friend wanting to bed her. That said many men are any port in a storm.

So if your wife is truly pretty hot and she has a bunch of close single male friends you know what is going on in their heads. Your wife is loving the attention and yeah the bonding with "friends". Especially that thoughtful hot guy who is always there for her and sends her little gifts.


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## Lon

I think it possible for a man to have close female friends, but to be a man's friend means he respects you and values you - 2 of 3 things necessary for a man to want a relationship with, the other being physical attraction. What this means is that a man's female "friends only" are probably not physically attractive to him (most likely what Shaggy said) I think there is ALWAYS some sexual tension in such a relationship, because if its not a sexual attraction between each other it is the very social assumptions discussed in this thread, that there is somehow an inappropriateness of such a friendship.


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## Entropy3000

I'mAllIn said:


> I think the main thing I'm finding in the discussion between my friends (male & female, married & single, all ages) is that the answer to this question is so much about their level of confidence in their relationship(s) and their past experiences. The younger ones who are either still single or in new relationships and have not been hurt are more sure that it's stupid to think that every man wants to sleep with his female friends. The ones who have been burned wouldn't trust their wives with a Tibetan Monk. *I have a male friend that most people would not trust as far as they could throw him and I talk to him about everything, but because I've never given my husband one minute of reason to doubt me he doesn't.* He on the other hand recently had a little freak out, so I watch him like a hawk. Just depends on experience I think.


Yes. Less experience can leave people very naive. 

So you are leaving it up to your husbands reaction to your friends and you are very confident in yourself so you do not see the risk in this guy who most people think should not be trusted. Hmmmmmm. So you are looking for your mate to regulate your activities with the opposite sex by c0ckblocking when he feels there is a threat. Interesting. Would your husband be "controlling" if he objected? Serious question. Or would you understand and cool the friendship?

I have not been burned but I would not trust the Monk either. I do trust my wife. No the men. But again, I was the one who let myself fall into an EA. It happens in such subtle ways you are in deep before you realize it and then the chemicals make it feel ok even when it is not.

My wife talking to another man about everything would be a level of unfaithfulness for me. Certainly inappropriate. Not judging you. Does your husband know this?

But you make very valid points. It is a shame that folks have to be burned to see the risks involved. I confess my TAM persona is a tad more conservative than my real life. I do have better boundaries than I used to.

I find this particular topic to be highly pertinent to a pro marriage forum.


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## Entropy3000

nice777guy said:


> Your husband may trust you - but if he has reason to not trust this guy (*like - if the guy has a penis* - and most do - just assume he does and don't ask to see it or anything) - then there is still a problem.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## that_girl

My single fat friends get more sex than my skinny ones. Just sayin'.

And I do think men and women can be friends if it's in the right context. I have a male friend that I've never wanted to sleep with...it just never went there. We collaborate on work (art, writings, etc) and over the years became good friends. 

My husband has a female friend (who is now a close friend of mine) and they never dated or wanted to have sex. They just got along well. He has another female friend that he doesn't hide from me and he doesn't want that way, they just talk about cars. She hangs out with his group of friends and has her own boyfriends (a lot of boyfriends...lol...) I don't like her much because she's flakey, but hey, not my friend.


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## I'mAllIn

Entropy3000 said:


> Yes. Less experience can leave people very naive.
> 
> So you are leaving it up to your husbands reaction to your friends and you are very confident in yourself so you do not see the risk in this guy who most people think should not be trusted. Hmmmmmm. So you are looking for your mate to regulate your activities with the opposite sex by c0ckblocking when he feels there is a threat. Interesting. Would your husband be "controlling" if he objected? Serious question.
> 
> I have not been burned but I would not trust the Monk either.
> But again, I was the one who let myself fall into an EA. It happens in such subtle ways you are in deep before you realize it and then the chemicals make it feel ok even when it is not.
> 
> My wife talking to another man about everything would be a level of unfaithfulness for me. Certainly inappropriate. Not judging you. Does your husband know this?
> 
> But you make very valid points. It is a shame that folks have to be burned to see the risks involved.


Ok somehow my post came across to you differently than I intended decause that isn't at all correct. My friendship with my male friends evolved gradually in the same way that my friendships with my female friends did, and for the same reasons, not because he was male, or because I was looking to test my husband's boundaries. I don't wait for my H to react to decide what is and isn't appropriate, I have personal boundaries that have kept me faithfull to my H for 21 years which is most likely what makes me confident enough to have friendships with a man. I don't know if my husband would so much be controlling if he objected, but he would most certainly push back when I said I was going to see them, or flat out tell me that he was unhappy with it. 
You say that you would be unhappy if your wife talked to a male friend about everything. For me, one of the advantages of an opposite sex friend is having someone to ask about the things I don't understand about men. The other advantage to a male friend over a female is that they are much less likely to turn it into drama and talk to other friends about it. To be clear though, I never ever talk to him about anything I have not already talked to my H about. During a recent tough time in our marriage my friend gave me some male perspective, and a single piece of advice that most allowed me to move forward with my husband. And yes, my husband knew I talked to him about it.


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## Entropy3000

I'mAllIn said:


> Ok somehow my post came across to you differently than I intended decause that isn't at all correct. My friendship with my male friends evolved gradually in the same way that my friendships with my female friends did, and for the same reasons, not because he was male, or because I was looking to test my husband's boundaries. I don't wait for my H to react to decide what is and isn't appropriate, I have personal boundaries that have kept me faithfull to my H for 21 years which is most likely what makes me confident enough to have friendships with a man. I don't know if my husband would so much be controlling if he objected, but he would most certainly push back when I said I was going to see them, or flat out tell me that he was unhappy with it.
> You say that you would be unhappy if your wife talked to a male friend about everything. For me, one of the advantages of an opposite sex friend is having someone to ask about the things I don't understand about men. The other advantage to a male friend over a female is that they are much less likely to turn it into drama and talk to other friends about it. To be clear though, I never ever talk to him about anything I have not already talked to my H about. During a recent tough time in our marriage my friend gave me some male perspective, and a single piece of advice that most allowed me to move forward with my husband. And yes, my husband knew I talked to him about it.


Your answer seems consistent with what I was thinking. I hope this continues to work for you. In general talking about marriage difficulties to another man is very risky. You said everything. I guess thst includes sexual things too. I would just say, that it is great that you guys are having success but would advise folks not to try this at home unless they have really thought it through.


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## ren

We have several mutual female friends who are sexually attractive, in an entirely different context I would sleep with them. I don't want to sleep with them though, I just appreciate that they are hot and capable of arousing me. A few of them are actually married or in LTRs and we are also friends with their partners, I've had conversations with them where the attractiveness of our women is openly acknowledged and it's really not a big deal. It's like it's just a fact of life we accept, hot girls are hot and we each have one that loves us.


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## I'mAllIn

ren said:


> We have several mutual female friends who are sexually attractive, in an entirely different context I would sleep with them. I don't want to sleep with them though, I just appreciate that they are hot and capable of arousing me. A few of them are actually married or in LTRs and we are also friends with their partners, I've had conversations with them where the attractiveness of our women is openly acknowledged and it's really not a big deal. It's like it's just a fact of life we accept, hot girls are hot and we each have one that loves us.


See, this I understand. I refuse to believe that all opposit sex friendships must be viewed as a threat. Even if there is sexual attraction or even sexual tension doesn't mean that it has to be acted on. Those of us on my side of this debate believe self control and a personal belief in right and wrong aren't dead.


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## Ten_year_hubby

I have a several close female friends and under the right circumstances, I would sleep with any of them. I have a deep personal affection for each of these women and they're not bad to look at either.


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## Entropy3000

I'mAllIn said:


> See, this I understand. I refuse to believe that all opposit sex friendships must be viewed as a threat. Even if there is sexual attraction or even sexual tension doesn't mean that it has to be acted on. Those of us on my side of this debate believe self control and a personal belief in right and wrong aren't dead.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/33452-ed-what-am-i-doing-wrong.html#post457222

Just be very careful. I hope you are not sharing this stuff with other men. Playing just the tip is actually a lot of fun.


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## Runs like Dog

If he's gay, yes. Otherwise, no.


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## nice777guy

Entropy3000 said:


> Just be very careful. I hope you are not sharing this stuff with other men.


OK - so YOU are suddenly the morality police?

She obviously has some questions about life right now. Thinking you must be fairly interested in her for having connected those two threads.

Pisses me off when someone comes here and expresses DOUBT - which usually means they are THINKING THROUGH THINGS. And then some smug know-it-all jackass comes along pretending to know EXACTLY how everyone else should be living their lives!

Wow...do you really think that helped...??? Really?


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## Entropy3000

nice777guy said:


> OK - so YOU are suddenly the morality police?
> 
> She obviously has some questions about life right now. Thinking you must be fairly interested in her for having connected those two threads.
> 
> Pisses me off when someone comes here and expresses DOUBT - which usually means they are THINKING THROUGH THINGS. And then some smug know-it-all jackass comes along pretending to know EXACTLY how everyone else should be living their lives!
> 
> Wow...do you really think that helped...??? Really?


I really think she is playing with fire. So yeah, maybe I can get her to think about the context of her question. This is a forum. I reserve moral judgements for animal and child abuse and the like. I am sorry this was a trigger for you in some way.


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## I'mAllIn

Entropy3000 said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/33452-ed-what-am-i-doing-wrong.html#post457222
> 
> Just be very careful. I hope you are not sharing this stuff with other men. Playing just the tip is actually a lot of fun.


Wow, guess I should have expected that on an anonomous forum. 
No, that's not something I shared with anyone anywhere else, and apparently shouldn't have here. My bad


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## nice777guy

Entropy3000 said:


> I really think she is playing with fire.


I think you were just trying to be clever.


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## nice777guy

I'mAllIn said:


> Wow, guess I should have expected that on an anonomous forum.
> No, that's not something I shared with anyone anywhere else, and apparently shouldn't have here. My bad


You can report it to the mods easily enough.


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## Entropy3000

nice777guy said:


> I think you were just trying to be clever.


That is an incorrect assumption. I save my inept attempts at being clever for less sensitive things.


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## nice777guy

Entropy3000 said:


> I really think she is playing with fire. So yeah, maybe I can get her to think about the context of her question. This is a forum. I reserve moral judgements for animal and child abuse and the like. I am sorry this was a trigger for you in some way.


Instead of smug, passive aggressive comments, try being more direct - and without the disrespectful sexual comment at the end.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Holster it boys. Jesus.


----------



## that_girl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Holster it boys. Jesus.


Right? I didn't see a problem with what was written...


----------



## Entropy3000

I'mAllIn said:


> Wow, guess I should have expected that on an anonomous forum.
> No, that's not something I shared with anyone anywhere else, and apparently shouldn't have here. My bad


You said you shared everything. Many folks with close personal friends share this type of stuff as well. The opposite sex friend discussion is very much around where one sets their boundaries. One of the knocks on having close opposite sex friends is for a spouse to share marriage related issues. To not do so is boundary. So this is very pertinent to the discussion.
You are now saying that you do not share this with him and that you have a boundary about it. I think that is meaningful to the discussion.

Just as I do not hide the fact that my stance is based on mistakes, poor diecisions and lack of boundaries that I have had. I was very wrong. I know that today.

I have not violated any rules and in no way was being disrespectful to anyone.

Have a nice day folks.


----------



## nice777guy

that_girl said:


> Right? I didn't see a problem with what was written...


I took out the BS parts out when I quoted Entropy.

I may be wrong - I may have misunderstood - but I dont' think so.


----------



## meson

Entropy3000 said:


> So if we assume that in any given opposite sex relationship there is for the sake of argument a 95% chance it can stay platonic, does that mean it is prudent to have that relationship in the context of a marriage? How about having five close opposite sex friends at that 95% ? Hmmm the odds are getting dicey now. Of course it is not about predictable per centages. It depends on so many other factors. A spouse is going to have a level of vulnerablitiy to an EA that will vary from day to day, month to month and year to yearts based on married life and related challenges.
> 
> So sure there are all sorts of benefits with opposite sex friends. But friends with benefits is always lurking. It is a matter of risk versus reward. How important is fidelity to a given relationship? What is the cost of having the additional boundary of not having any close opposite sex friends. Priorities. YMMV.


Statistically speaking Entropy (and Entropy is really a statistical concept ) is dead on. There is some chance that over the life of your marriage that you will find a friend crosses into something more. You said you were married for 21 years and hadn't had a problem yet. Well it was in my 21st year that I learned this the hard way that it can and does happen. The chemical addiction of love is very powerful and certain benign contact can trigger it. This is the danger that Entropy is talking about. His point of view is to avoid the temptation of getting sucked into a black hole. This advice will work for most everyone but at the cost of significant friendships.

However like you I believe in having opposite sex friends and they fill a large part of my life. So instead of avoidance I choose the riskier path of continuation of those friendships but with extra boundaries, transparency and approval from my wife. It doesn't avoid the danger altogether but it helps to minimize it. 

As for the woman I fell in love with, I have spent a lot of time relegating her to the relative zone. She has become like a cool Aunt and I still love her but like a relative not a lover. The trick to this was disclosure to my wife and NOT to her. She doesn't know and will NEVER know the true extent of my feelings. Transparency for me and my wife is essential and we have really discussed boundaries explicitly since this has happened. My wife didn’t step in like Entropy’s but she let me know in ways that I heard that I was in trouble. I listened and acted on it. If you can do the same then perhaps it can work for you also.

I also found the advice in this link useful:

The Edge of Reason: "Demoting" a Relationship


So Entropy is indeed correct and his solution is safer but less rewarding. You need to be on the same page with your husband on this to make it work because if you get in trouble it is REALLY REALLY hard.


----------



## ren

I'mAllIn said:


> See, this I understand. I refuse to believe that all opposit sex friendships must be viewed as a threat. Even if there is sexual attraction or even sexual tension doesn't mean that it has to be acted on. Those of us on my side of this debate believe self control and a personal belief in right and wrong aren't dead.


I think most people are deeply selfish and just unable to rationally examine their desires. They confuse sexual attraction with a meaning and significance it doesn't have and then imagine it compels them to do what they know is wrong.


----------



## nice777guy

ren said:


> I think most people are deeply selfish and just unable to rationally examine their desires. They confuse sexual attraction with a meaning and significance it doesn't have and then imagine it compels them to do what they know is wrong.


Meaning they romanticize it?


----------



## I'mAllIn

ren said:


> I think most people are deeply selfish and just unable to rationally examine their desires. They confuse sexual attraction with a meaning and significance it doesn't have and then imagine it compels them to do what they know is wrong.


I agree. Add to that the inability or unwillingness of most people to think past what they're sure will be a mind blowing experience to the endless possible negative consequences. I guess I had enough mediocre sex before I got married to know that chances are it wouldn't be that mind blowing with someone else and appreciate how good I have it at home.


----------



## Dave B

I can only speak for myself, but usually I can't hang out with a female friend without there being an attraction to her. That means when I got married I dropped any female friend to hang out with unless my wife and others were present. My wife has had the same experience, good guy friends she thought were friends would act fine until an inevitable moment when he'd make a move on her. So we've chosen to aim at having couple friends only.


----------



## ren

nice777guy said:


> Meaning they romanticize it?


Not necessarily, but yes that seems to be extremely common. I think our culture promotes a concept of love that makes the self-justification of inappropriate behavior much easier for many people, and a concept of sex that makes it much easier for many people to confuse sexual desire with romantic love.


----------



## chillymorn

that_girl said:


> My single fat friends get more sex than my skinny ones. Just sayin'.
> 
> And I do think men and women can be friends if it's in the right context. I have a male friend that I've never wanted to sleep with...it just never went there. We collaborate on work (art, writings, etc) and over the years became good friends.
> 
> My husband has a female friend (who is now a close friend of mine) and they never dated or wanted to have sex. They just got along well. He has another female friend that he doesn't hide from me and he doesn't want that way, they just talk about cars. She hangs out with his group of friends and has her own boyfriends (a lot of boyfriends...lol...) I don't like her much because she's flakey, but hey, not my friend.


just sayin' fat girls are easy?

and skinny girls are ice queens?


----------



## Enginerd

Female Acquaintances = Yes
Female Co-workers = Yes
Real female friends that you hang with outside of work without the spouse = No

Outside of older women I think a typical hetero guy must find something attractive about a women to want to invest the time and energy to be perceived as her friend. He may say "Oh I would never sleep with her because I value my relationship", but I would bet he has fantasized about it and would do it if his relationship was in trouble. The friendships between men and women have a different energy which I think is an underlying sexual tension. Its nice to hear another women's point of view sometimes but its probably nice because its a bit flattering that she bothered to share her thoughts.


----------



## joshbjoshb

Last night I tried explaining my wife what is going on in a men's head. I told her how easy it is for a man to be aroused by any stupid thing - even a stupid commercial with a pretty women in it, or better yet - not even pretty!

She couldn't understand it. If wives would understand what's really in men's head, they will be more than happy to provide sex to their husband knowing how much it protects them from being betrayed.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

joshbjoshb said:


> Last night I tried explaining my wife what is going on in a men's head. I told her how easy it is for a man to be aroused by any stupid thing - even a stupid commercial with a pretty women in it, or better yet - not even pretty!
> 
> She couldn't understand it. If wives would understand what's really in men's head, they will be more than happy to provide sex to their husband knowing how much it protects them from being betrayed.


It goes both ways.


----------



## TeaLeaves4

nice777guy said:


> Now - I will NOT say that I could never see myself crossing a boundary - mine or theirs - at some point. But - it hasn't happened yet and I have no "secret plans" in place.


Would you cross a boundary if you were still married though? Or if she was?
Not judging, just a question. It's starting to scare me because it sounds like almost all the guys would if they got the green light.


----------



## iDeal

I'mAllIn said:


> I'm having an ongoing discussion with a group of friends started by an article we read in some random magazine. The article said that it's actually good for people to have opposite sexmale friends. The basic premise of the article was that *harmless flirting and the ability to ask opposite sex friends advice* and questions was a good thing, as long as there are clear boundaries and no secrets.
> However, some of my male friends say no heterosexual man has female friends that they wouldn't sleep with if given half a chance. Do you guys feel that's true?


If you are married, that is out of order, i do not care how harmless the flirting may be. Also, always put your self in your spouses position, what if he had such female "friends"


And no, i will speak for the majority of men on earth and go ahead and confirm that a guy will bang a woman if he has the chance to and if she is half decent looking.


----------



## TeaLeaves4

iDeal said:


> If you are married, that is out of order, i do not care how harmless the flirting may be. Also, always put your self in your spouses position, what if he had such female "friends"
> 
> 
> And no, i will speak for the majority of men on earth and go ahead and confirm that a guy will bang a woman if he has the chance to and if she is half decent looking.


Do you mean the majority will do so regardless of their relationship status?


----------



## that_girl

chillymorn said:


> just sayin' fat girls are easy?
> 
> and skinny girls are ice queens?


Easy? I dunno. They want the sex so it's their choice. Not going to call them easy. Holy crap. 

Ice queens? LOL Where do you get this stuff? Did I say that? no. You did, though


----------



## iDeal

TeaLeaves4 said:


> Do you mean the majority will do so regardless of their relationship status?


The majority? yes. depends on what kind of guy it is, some loyal genuine guys will not have girl friends, like my self. i don't see my self being friends with a female, so i don't have any, i wouldn't do anything with them because i love, respect and am loyal to my wife, but its the girls that i do not trust, and hey, why even put my self in that situation, i will not die without female friends.


----------



## Arnold

I'mAllIn said:


> I'm having an ongoing discussion with a group of friends started by an article we read in some random magazine. The article said that it's actually good for people to have opposite sexmale friends. The basic premise of the article was that harmless flirting and the ability to ask opposite sex friends advice and questions was a good thing, as long as there are clear boundaries and no secrets.
> However, some of my male friends say no heterosexual man has female friends that they wouldn't sleep with if given half a chance. Do you guys feel that's true?


I will sleep with anyone, if I am sufficiently tired and there is no threat of sex. Snoring may be a concern, on second thought.


----------



## Arnold

Therealbrighteyes said:


> It goes both ways.


I wonder when guys are going to figure out that ,in many cases. a woman's sex drive dwarfs that of man's. Think those cougars are going for young stuff because of the mental stimulation vs physical endurance. Sucks to get old, as man, but what can one do(well, there is Viagra).

Boys, they do not need recovery time, are multi-orgasmic, have the capacity to do more than one person at a time should they so desire. Whose buying all those vibrators, as Marc Rudov poses?

Look at the capacity they have. Must be some purpose from an evolutionary standpoint.


----------



## that_girl

iDeal said:


> The majority? yes. depends on what kind of guy it is, some loyal genuine guys will not have girl friends, like my self. i don't see my self being friends with a female, so i don't have any, i wouldn't do anything with them because i love, respect and am loyal to my wife, *but its the girls that i do not trust*, and hey, why even put my self in that situation, i will not die without female friends.


Word.

Or single men hanging around married women. I don't trust them either. I am suspicious of their motives.

Maybe because if I was single, i would think hanging out with a married person without their spouse is somewhat sleezy.

I have male friends but they are more 'chat' buddies for different purposes (nonsexual lol) ...My best friend (before I met my husband) is a family therapist. He comes in handy LOL and free.

I have a TOTAL double standard that Im trying to overcome though.

I have a friend of opposite sex. I don't think it's a big deal. I know I don't mean any harm and neither does my friend (6 year friendship, he has a gf). Women who want to be friends with my husband, however, make me want to kick some ass. I just don't trust it. I trust him though, that's the funny part....but I DO NOT trust them. I'm working through some of that, but...I still think single women who hang around married men are just looking for trouble and/or a challenge.


----------



## golfergirl

Runs like Dog said:


> If he's gay, yes. Otherwise, no.


When Harry Met Sally - they discussed men and women friendships. Harry said men always want to sleep with their female friends. She commented that men can be friends with women they find unattractive. Harry responded, 'Nah, you pretty much want to nail them too!'.
For whatever reason, this discussion made me think of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nice777guy

TeaLeaves4 said:


> Would you cross a boundary if you were still married though? Or if she was?
> Not judging, just a question. It's starting to scare me because it sounds like almost all the guys would if they got the green light.


When I was happily married, I would not have crossed a boundary.

Now that I'm almost single, I'm still not crossing them - but its harder.

I don't like you saying it "scares" you - that sounds a bit harsh. But it should concern you - you should be aware that life is full of traps and people make mistakes all of the time - especially if you aren't happily married.

But no - not all guys would cross the line if given the green light.


----------



## iDeal

that_girl said:


> Word.
> 
> Or single men hanging around married women. I don't trust them either. I am suspicious of their motives.
> 
> Maybe because if I was single, i would think hanging out with a married person without their spouse is somewhat sleezy.
> 
> I have male friends but they are more 'chat' buddies for different purposes (nonsexual lol) ...My best friend (before I met my husband) is a family therapist. He comes in handy LOL and free.
> 
> I have a TOTAL double standard that Im trying to overcome though.
> 
> I have a friend of opposite sex. I don't think it's a big deal. I know I don't mean any harm and neither does my friend (6 year friendship, he has a gf). Women who want to be friends with my husband, however, make me want to kick some ass. I just don't trust it. I trust him though, that's the funny part....but I DO NOT trust them. I'm working through some of that, but...I still think single women who hang around married men are just looking for trouble and/or a challenge.


But as much as you may want to "kick some ass", don't you think your husband feels the same way about your buddy? In my opinion, whether he has a gf or not, that doesnt make a difference since MEN know what other MEN are like... 

Would you cut contact if your husband asked you to? 
Would you pick your husband or the friend if it came down to it?

I am looking for a simple answer, no politicians here please lol


----------



## iDeal

golfergirl said:


> When Harry Met Sally - they discussed men and women friendships. Harry said men always want to sleep with their female friends. She commented that men can be friends with women they find unattractive. Harry responded, 'Nah, you pretty much want to nail them too!'.
> For whatever reason, this discussion made me think of this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Amen.

Why would you need male friends if your husband can be your best friend? what possible advice could you be seeking that your own husband cannot give you but another "male friend" can?

I don't want to come of as a prude, but i like to poke around a bit, if that's okay with you.


----------



## that_girl

iDeal said:


> But as much as you may want to "kick some ass", don't you think your husband feels the same way about your buddy? In my opinion, whether he has a gf or not, that doesnt make a difference since MEN know what other MEN are like...
> 
> Would you cut contact if your husband asked you to?
> Would you pick your husband or the friend if it came down to it?
> 
> I am looking for a simple answer, no politicians here please lol


Yep  

However, we have a thing about friends of opposite sex. If they were before "us" and we didn't get together with them, then fine-- cause we had the chance and didn't take it.

However, new friends of opposite sex? Nope. Never would do that. The one male friend that I used to be very close to has fallen to the back burner since I was married, but we chat occasionally when he's in town (he travels a lot). My husband doesn't care. I've asked him and he said he knows my intentions are pure. He knows my friend's are too because there was 2 years where we were both single (my friend and I) and nothing happened.

But I'd do anything for my husband. Even cutting out male friends. Most of the males I know are just acquaintances ...no biggie. Work buddies (we don't talk out of work) and that's it. 

My hubs is pretty chill. He knows I'm hot for him  NO ONE compares to him. Not even close... and he knows I think so.


----------



## iDeal

@that_girl

That sounds like a good deal, can i ask why there is an exception made with friends that you have had before marriage? after all, friends that you have had before marriage date back a while, isnt there as much "danger" with old friends as new friends?


----------



## ren

Arnold said:


> I will sleep with anyone, if I am sufficiently tired and there is no threat of sex. Snoring may be a concern, on second thought.


Back when I was married I once slept in the same bed as my wife and her sexiest friend. Woke up with an erection spooning the wrong one, her head was resting on my right arm and my left hand was very blantly holding her left breast. Hot as hell until full self-awareness returned. It really was not a big deal. The wife was like "uh?" and I was like, hey I'm cuddly when I sleep. The friend was like "no biggie, I love cuddling with either of you", and that was that. A few years later she was staying with us and I saw her mostly naked and totally drunk. The wife was asleep and either of us could of made the move, there was that tension of mutual attraction heavy in the air. I was rock hard. We locked eyes and smiled at each other like it was nothing and it really was. We were just meat being meat. I firmly believe I could sleep with any naked woman on earth in bed with me and not cross the line. Even if we both want it. I've faced down temptation enough in life without giving in to trust myself through anything. I suspect I'm the kind of guy who could smoke crack and then really mean it aftwards when I say it was the most fun I'v and e ever had and I'm never doing it again. I know I am not normal, follow in my footsteps and you will probably lose at least a limb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## that_girl

iDeal said:


> @that_girl
> 
> That sounds like a good deal, can i ask why there is an exception made with friends that you have had before marriage? after all, friends that you have had before marriage date back a while, isnt there as much "danger" with old friends as new friends?


Not for us.  I'm not attracted to my friend that way. Hubs had a good friend before he met me (a woman) and now she's one of my closest friends and they never talk anymore unless it's because she and I are planning a double date!  

I'm comfortable with our arrangement. I don't think too much about it.


----------



## I'mAllIn

iDeal said:


> Amen.
> 
> Why would you need male friends if your husband can be your best friend? what possible advice could you be seeking that your own husband cannot give you but another "male friend" can?
> 
> I don't want to come of as a prude, but i like to poke around a bit, if that's okay with you.


Most of the time a male friend is no different than a female friend in that you don't hang out with them for advice, you hang out with them to have fun, because they make you laugh or because you're doing something that you both enjoy. Also like same sex friends most of the time you don't do things alone with just the male friend, but with he and a whole group of other friends of both sexes.
However, to answer your question, every once in a very rare while my husband just will not make any sense to me whatsoever. My H is absolutely terrible at communicating his feelings/emotions. We've been together long enough that I can usually figure out whats going on. Recently though he did something really freakin stupid, and when confronted his explaination for it was so flimsy and lame to me that it was just eating at me. If I seek advice from one of my female friends they will not only answer from a female emotional perspective, but also freak out, turn it into drama and berate H every time they see him from now to eternity. So I ask male friend and he answers me from male emotional perspective, does not let it turn into embarressing blubberfest, buys me a drink, and then never brings it up again unless I do. Much better outcome.


----------



## AFEH

I'mAllIn said:


> I'm having an ongoing discussion with a group of friends started by an article we read in some random magazine. The article said that it's actually good for people to have opposite sexmale friends. The basic premise of the article was that harmless flirting and the ability to ask opposite sex friends advice and questions was a good thing, as long as there are clear boundaries and no secrets.
> However, some of my male friends say no heterosexual man has female friends that they wouldn't sleep with if given half a chance. Do you guys feel that's true?


In a marriage you’re obviously one of a team of two people. So it’s not just your needs, feelings etc. to take into account but your partners as well when thinking on opposite sex friends. This is where compromise comes in. If you persist in opposition to your partner, then that’s where a clash of values comes in and many marriages end over differences in values. In any case, playing the Flirting Game while married is, for me at least, an exceptionally Unhealthy and Dangerous Game to play.

It is not just you your partner has to look to trust implicitly, it’s the opposite sex friend who you are flirting with that you are asking your partner to trust implicitly as well. I can’t see the latter ever actually happening and so a great deal of harmful mistrust and suspicion will be introduced to the marriage and that can be the start of its eventual collapse.


----------



## Kobo

What are you guys calling a friend? 


- Hey how're you doing today. Rough one yesterday huh? kind of friend

- The we go to lunch everyday alone in the same car kind of friend


----------



## I'mAllIn

AFEH said:


> In a marriage you’re obviously one of a team of two people. So it’s not just your needs, feelings etc. to take into account but your partners as well when thinking on opposite sex friends. This is where compromise comes in. If you persist in opposition to your partner, then that’s where a clash of values comes in and many marriages end over differences in values. In any case, playing the Flirting Game while married is, for me at least, an exceptionally Unhealthy and Dangerous Game to play.
> 
> It is not just you your partner has to look to trust implicitly, it’s the opposite sex friend who you are flirting with that you are asking your partner to trust implicitly as well. I can’t see the latter ever actually happening and so a great deal of harmful mistrust and suspicion will be introduced to the marriage and that can be the start of its eventual collapse.


That was the only thing that every single person in this discussion agreed upon was that both partners in the marriage had to agree on the policy for opposite sex friends. If one person didn't trust a particular friend then the friendship had to end. I sure wish I could find an on-line copy of the article, because I think it would much better articulate the positive aspects of opposite sex friendships while not completely ignoring the dangers.


----------



## meson

I'mAllIn said:


> That was the only thing that every single person in this discussion agreed upon was that both partners in the marriage had to agree on the policy for opposite sex friends. If one person didn't trust a particular friend then the friendship had to end. I sure wish I could find an on-line copy of the article, because I think it would much better articulate the positive aspects of opposite sex friendships while not completely ignoring the dangers.


With many men there is always fronting and overt competition. Only with my really close male friends is the interaction non-competative and relaxed. Thats whats nice about even casual friendships with women is their relaxed non-competative nature. This is one of the benefits that I enjoy from cross-gender friendships.

I think the lack of agreement here is similar to going to an AA meeting and talking about the benefits of Alcohol in moderation. Many that come to TAM have been hurt by oposite sex friendships that developed into more which causes strong opinions against them.


----------



## I'mAllIn

meson said:


> With many men there is always fronting and overt competition. Only with my really close male friends is the interaction non-competative and relaxed. Thats whats nice about even casual friendships with women is their relaxed non-competative nature. This is one of the benefits that I enjoy from cross-gender friendships.
> 
> I think the lack of agreement here is similar to going to an AA meeting and talking about the benefits of Alcohol in moderation. Many that come to TAM have been hurt by oposite sex friendships that developed into more which causes strong opinions against them.


Ah hah! Here is another point that I hadn't even touched on. With their male friends that they truly do not wish to sleep with women are relaxed and non-competitive. With other women they are very much competitive. It's all about whose house is cleanest, kids are smartest, husband is most successful, etc, etc. Women rarely are able to relax and be themselves with each other any more than men are.


----------



## 2sick

Entropy3000 said:


> Maybe. I have opposite sex friends and colleagues. I learned I cannot have close female friends the hard way.
> 
> It comes down to how you define friendship and what commitment that friendship entails.
> 
> Does it involve hanging out with that person one on one? Like meeting up with pseudo dates?
> 
> Does it involve being alone with that person at their home or yours?
> 
> Are there private little secrets shared by you and that person separate from the spouses.
> 
> Is there flirting and sexual stuff discussed? Are personal things discussed about the marriage?
> 
> How often is the contact. I have friends I don't contact for weeks or months sometimes. I may have an exchnage of a few emails, usually to a group of us.
> 
> If this involves texting exhanges more than two or three in a month for a guy this is unusual. If it is many texts everyday then that is an affair. I would not be texting a guy just to chat. I may make a comment on facebook. I have facebook chat turned off.
> 
> The thing is at least for me anytime I invest in other folks is time I do not invest in my family, my work or my hobbies. My wife is my best female friend. I am her best male friend. That works for us. There may be female friends I see in a group but I never go meet up with a female friend for non work purposes. What needs am I trying to get met if I do?
> 
> For many they are just continuing the single kind of life style they had when they were dating. Even when they had a steady mate they were still very free as they are single. But for many when you get married there is a commitment to have boundaries that will prevent problems from surfacing.
> 
> Again what is the nature of that friendship and what investment is one putting into that relationship. I persoanlly think that the appearance fo inappropriate behavior can be very damaging. All marriages have their ups and downs. A spouse running to an opposite sex friend after an argument with a spouse is a very bad idea indeed for example.
> 
> So for me I would find it odd if my wife said after coming in late. "Yeah Bob and I decided to go out to a movie after we had dinner." "Then we stopped into the bar for a few drinks." "He and I are driving up the coast this weekend to the wine country while you are at work." "No just the two of us." "He wants to talk to me about the trouble he and his wife are having so we need some space to have a real chat about it."
> 
> Now take that same conversation and substitute Mary for Bob. She for He. Husband for wife. A whole different message is given. Why do you think that is?


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: 10000%


----------



## meson

I'mAllIn said:


> Ah hah! Here is another point that I hadn't even touched on. With their male friends that they truly do not wish to sleep with women are relaxed and non-competitive. With other women they are very much competitive. It's all about whose house is cleanest, kids are smartest, husband is most successful, etc, etc. Women rarely are able to relax and be themselves with each other any more than men are.


:iagree:

Yes, with one of my best women friends it's very relaxed but with my wife and her its somewhat competative with the kids. Likewise my wife is very relaxed with a couple of my friends.


----------



## meson

Another benefit is the expansion of experience. I like to cook but none of my male friends do (I know there are lots of men that do, I just don't know any). However with several of my women friends I can discuss the nuances of altering a recipe for pineapple upside down cake for using fresh pineapple instead of canned. 

Having opposite sex friends is a way of expanding your realm of experience and ideas. I learned more about being a dad from a woman than I ever did from talking with other dads about being a good father.


----------



## Halien

I'mAllIn said:


> Ah hah! Here is another point that I hadn't even touched on. With their male friends that they truly do not wish to sleep with women are relaxed and non-competitive. With other women they are very much competitive. It's all about whose house is cleanest, kids are smartest, husband is most successful, etc, etc. Women rarely are able to relax and be themselves with each other any more than men are.


Although I have a number of female friends, I think we all have to face the reality that these can turn on a dime, so to speak, into the sexual realm. Especially if either one is going through struggles in their marriage. This actually happened to me with a woman who I considered to be a good friend. So sure, we can know ourselves, but sometimes that 'friend' can suddenly try to turn the friendship into more. So I would never allow a casual friendship to exist if I don't feel 100% confident that I would turn them away if something changes.


----------



## Kobo

Halien said:


> Although I have a number of female friends, I think we all have to face the reality that these can turn on a dime, so to speak, into the sexual realm. Especially if either one is going through struggles in their marriage. This actually happened to me with a woman who I considered to be a good friend. So sure, we can know ourselves, but sometimes that 'friend' can suddenly try to turn the friendship into more. So I would never allow a casual friendship to exist if I don't feel 100% confident that I would turn them away if something changes.


This is dead on. Prevention is cheaper than the cure. 

What's funny is so many women complain about how their husbands don't listen to them or pay attention to them. Why does your male friend? So many husbands complain about their wives nagging them and always talking on and on but have so much time to listen to their female friends. I wonder why?


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## Entropy3000

AFEH said:


> In a marriage you’re obviously one of a team of two people. So it’s not just your needs, feelings etc. to take into account but your partners as well when thinking on opposite sex friends. This is where compromise comes in. If you persist in opposition to your partner, then that’s where a clash of values comes in and many marriages end over differences in values. In any case, playing the Flirting Game while married is, for me at least, an exceptionally Unhealthy and Dangerous Game to play.
> 
> It is not just you your partner has to look to trust implicitly, it’s the opposite sex friend who you are flirting with that you are asking your partner to trust implicitly as well. I can’t see the latter ever actually happening and so a great deal of harmful mistrust and suspicion will be introduced to the marriage and that can be the start of its eventual collapse.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## ozwang

I can be friends with other women and not want to have sex with them, because I'm HAPPILY MARRIED and FAITHFUL.

I don't understand where some peoples common sense is sometimes.


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## ren

ozwang said:


> I can be friends with other women and not want to have sex with them, because I'm HAPPILY MARRIED and FAITHFUL.
> 
> I don't understand where some peoples common sense is sometimes.


That's an interesting statement. What about the women you do want to have sex with, can you be friends with them?


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## Arnold

ren said:


> That's an interesting statement. What about the women you do want to have sex with, can you be friends with them?


Eh, I think that would be his wife, exclusively.


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## ManDup

I'mAllIn said:


> I think the main thing I'm finding in the discussion between my friends (male & female, married & single, all ages) is that the answer to this question is so much about their level of confidence in their relationship(s) and their past experiences. The younger ones who are either still single or in new relationships and have not been hurt are more sure that it's stupid to think that every man wants to sleep with his female friends. The ones who have been burned wouldn't trust their wives with a Tibetan Monk. I have a male friend that most people would not trust as far as they could throw him and I talk to him about everything, but because I've never given my husband one minute of reason to doubt me he doesn't. He on the other hand recently had a little freak out, so I watch him like a hawk. Just depends on experience I think.


People make a lot of the "men want to fark everything that moves" idea, but they get it a little wrong. What happens is that most men, when they see a woman, will make an immediate assessment, to say "Would do" or "wouldn't do" with very few falling into a grey area. That's not to say we would ever act on it, it's just an instinctual sorting that happens. Different men color the thoughts differently, so that one might really think "would do if we were both single and not working together and blah blah blah" while another might really think "would do if I can talk her into it at the next bridge club meeting when my wife is out of the room and her husband is at least on the phone" so there is a moral gamut.


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## Lon

ManDup said:


> People make a lot of the "men want to fark everything that moves" idea, but they get it a little wrong. What happens is that most men, when they see a woman, will make an immediate assessment, to say "Would do" or "wouldn't do" with very few falling into a grey area. That's not to say we would ever act on it, it's just an instinctual sorting that happens. Different men color the thoughts differently, so that one might really think "would do if we were both single and not working together and blah blah blah" while another might really think "would do if I can talk her into it at the next bridge club meeting when my wife is out of the room and her husband is at least on the phone" so there is a moral gamut.


I agree with this completely.

One thing I also notice about myself, is that even what I think (how it looks in my mind's eye) is also another degree of separation from what I actually do, even if I do sort some woman into the "want to fark right now" category there is also the issue of making it happen.


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## nice777guy

ManDup said:


> People make a lot of the "men want to fark everything that moves" idea, but they get it a little wrong. What happens is that most men, when they see a woman, will make an immediate assessment, to say "Would do" or "wouldn't do" with very few falling into a grey area. That's not to say we would ever act on it, it's just an instinctual sorting that happens. Different men color the thoughts differently, so that one might really think "would do if we were both single and not working together and blah blah blah" while another might really think "would do if I can talk her into it at the next bridge club meeting when my wife is out of the room and her husband is at least on the phone" so there is a moral gamut.


I agree. Also want to point out that it happens in the blink of an eye.


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## Stonewall

Yes I have female friends and no I would not even consider nailing one. I worked 24 hour shifts with a female with just us 2 and no one else there. I think that would be the perfect set up if I wanted to cheat but there is no way I could do that to my wife. I just could not do that to her.


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## SimplyAmorous

I would trust my husband impeccably with all of my female friends- only one is a bombshell and even his favorite stripper (but she moved away anyhow) but really, My husband would never cross such a line, he even felt masterbating to Playboy bunnies while married is like cheating, his ethics are very strong and he is faithful incarnate. He has very high standards on himself & his behavior, probably a little better than me even. 

To say he wouldn't entertain some lustful quick thoughts about the pretty ladies, sure he might -but he would never sleep with them. 

I can be trusted as well with our guy friends. I have no interest whatsoever in our best guy friend, he however would "want" me. But he also loves my mind. He is "our" closest friend, like a brother, like an Uncle to our kids, he has been around for 19 yrs, he knows I wouldn't want him if we was stranded on a desert Island, Just not my type at all, plus we are too much alike, but I do enjoy his " mind " and our talks, debates, the communication aspect of our relationship.


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