# How to bring up sex with a defensive woman???



## TimFrost (Sep 19, 2013)

First time poster, long time reader.
Sorry such a long post but I need someone to talk to about this.

Any time I try to bring up the subject of sex or my feelings about sex with my wife, she gets very defensive and angry. Then her first reaction is to tell me I don't respect her feelings and then I get the silent treatment and all affection stops. This usually lasts until I apologize. 

I try not to let things bother me and keep my mouth shut. As long as she thinks I am fine with our sex life then everything is calm and normal. At least normal as she sees it.

My issues are basically simple. At least I think so. 
See, I feel depressed because of a lack of affection and I feel like she does not desire me at all. We do have sex. About 2 times in about every 3 weeks. This is okay, but when we do she mostly lies back and lets me do all the touching I want but barely touches back until she gets closer to her release. then it seems rushed to get done and that's that.

Its not really the quantity of sex we have that is an issue for me but more so the fact that I don't feel desired or wanted sexually.
I know she loves me but I feel its more like really close friends than lovers.

We have been married for over 20 years and have 3 kids. they are 20, 18 and 11. Our sex life has been like this at least 15 years if not longer. 

Every time I try to spice things up or try to ask for more from her she gets mad and tells me that I know how she is and I need to respect her feelings more.

I have been having performance issues for the last couple of years now and she says its because of the amount of coffee I drink and the fact that we both smoke. I however, feel it is caused by the fact that I don't feel wanted. but I reason with myself to leave it be because some sex is better than no sex.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I dont know that some sex is better than no sex if it is basically the kind you can give yourself. Ideally sex between two people would involve both people wanting each other, touching, whispering, talking about it, etc. 

I'm not sure what she means by you knowing how she is - but any person is capable of rational conversation - that is a choice. She doesn't need to be defensive and it makes me think she knows she isn't pulling her weight in that area.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

May I suggest that you first take care of your body. Make it your goal to stop smoking, get in good shape, acquire at lest one hobby that you enjoy and you don't need to include your wife. 

Also, make same gender friends outside of couple friends and family. Maybe with men involved in your new hobby. 

If there is any chance of you turning this around, it will come when you let go and let it float away. Become your own man, less dependent on your wife, less manipulated by sex, sure that you will be ok if you could not stay married. 

She is too sure of you. It's not that she does not love you, she has not considered that you might actually not be around forever. For most people, appreciation comes when you either fear losing what you have or have lost, if only temporarily. 

It is ok to remind her that she needs to appreciate you as you do her. Get yourself in a more independent carefree frame of mind. Easy for me to say right? 

But this is action that you can take that is good for you even if your sex life does not improve with your wife. You can only win.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ignore sex altogether and detach as much as possible and see how long she plays along...

Corpse sex or monthly sex are as meaningless as one night stands. Express this to her and let her make up her mind. 

Focus on your kids instead, great ages for fun with Dad  (my daughters are older but still an evening spent with me beats anything on their agenda)


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

being defensive is just another face of being a bully . 

defensiveness controls the discussion and the relationship and ultimately your behavior . 

it's usually go away when shes defensive and try to ignore what's going on her position is bolstered . and anyway who wants to have sex with someone who such a pushover . 

what Catherine suggested will help you become more of a man and more in control of your destiny .

I also don't understand how you can live with having so little sex when there is no physical or particularly emotionally trying event . 

perhaps your performance problems are related to a combination of those things . perhaps there are other health issues that you are unaware of . a strong cardiovascular system is necessary for good sexual functioning in a Man . So get a check up . 

do what you must to eliminate the health issues . get that heart pumping some exercise . 

it will make you feel a lot better about yourself and it will also put one of her arguments to rest . 

a quicker easier and maybe underhanded wait to shut her up about it would be to watch some porn with her so she can see how quickly you get hard and stay hard while you watch and have sex with her . 

that won't actually prove that you don't have an underlying health issue but it should drive home the fact that you are capable of performing with stimulation .

anyway you'll never get what you want if you keep backing down from her . marriage and sex go together. If you can't have sex with your spouse you are stuck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> May I suggest that you first take care of your body. Make it your goal to stop smoking, get in good shape, acquire at lest one hobby that you enjoy and you don't need to include your wife.
> 
> Also, make same gender friends outside of couple friends and family. Maybe with men involved in your new hobby.
> 
> ...


I agree with the advice given.

I don't necessarily agree that "it's not that she does not love you". Her words and actions convey a great deal of condescention towards her husband:

1) She tells him flat out that he needs to have sex her way. A normal person would not be so selfish, much less admit it. This woman says it and then freezes him out to prove her point.

2) She only engages in sex (however little) until she gets hers, and then checks out.

OP: this is not a woman who values you as her equal. IMO, it is not possible for her to treat you so dismissively and claim such superiority over you as her legitimate right yet love you as her husband.

Keep that in mind when deciding how much of this to tolerate and what to do about it.

When my ex was at her most disrespectful, I flat out told her to pack her stuff and leave. Then, I waited for her to ask to come back home. I made a stand and she never crossed that line again. You might consider taking equally strong action.


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## cheese puff (Jul 24, 2011)

I will give you the best advice my counselor gave me. Tell her how you feel, how men like to feel desired its natural for us, describe how it negatively effects your marriage and how changing it will improve your marriage. If she get defensive let her wear that problem it's her problem don't let her put it on you. give her a few days to think about it once she has got over the defensive behavior on her own, with out your apologies, try to talk again.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

cheese puff said:


> I will give you the best advice my counselor gave me. Tell her how you feel, how men like to feel desired its natural for us, describe how it negatively effects your marriage and how changing it will improve your marriage. If she get defensive let her wear that problem it's her problem don't let her put it on you. give her a few days to think about it once she has got over the defensive behavior on her own, with out your apologies, try to talk again.


Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. It is her problem but its not like she hasn't heard it before or she cares to begin with...


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Cigarettes destroy your ability to have erections, as you note.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

Hi Tim.

if she is being defensive, do you know what she might be trying to defend? Normally when someone is defensive, they might be scared, threatened, ashamed, vulnerable, guilty. As a woman, her interest in sex changing over time could be attributed to a number of factors. It could be a change in hormones (pregnancy, menopause, female issues), a change in body image/self esteem (weight loss, ageing, scars/changes from pregnancy), a change in ability for sexual pleasure (sometimes childbirth can cause complications and cause one to become tender down there). Other possibilities could be history of abuse, general stress, depression /anxiety, medications (including contraceptives). 

I am just putting this out there so you understand this may not be about you. But then, you can't read her mind or "understand how she is" when she won't communicate. 

If you get on well as friends as you say, do you think coming at it from that angle would help? What I mean is, if you know any of the above applies to her, bring that up in a caring way and ask questions, and then depending on the response, you could possibly broach the question of whether she feels that affects her sexual satisfaction/desire etc. It may help reduce the defensiveness if coming from a place of care/concern for her, ie, "I just want you to enjoy ". Of course, it is super sugar coated and not sufficient to address your needs, but it may provide for a way in. But you will have a better idea than me if this would end well.

If you are feeling out of luck, I strongly recommend seeing a counsellor together. I knjw it's a cliche response, but having that third person there who is skilled and professional is a great buffer and will know how to broach issues gently. Plus, from my own experience, I am less likely to react as extreme in front of others than I would one on one with hubby.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cheese puff (Jul 24, 2011)

Seems everyone on here likes to bash my advice. I went from no sex to now having the best sex and a very good quality relationship. The easiest advice I can give you is to leave and never look back.


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## aeasty (Jun 5, 2013)

go to the fish market and get a frozen fish and throw it in the bed and tell her that is how the sex is! hahaha don't do that just tell her how it is and when she gets defensive don't stop and get on the back foot so to speak take another step forward and show her that behaviour isn't going to change your mind and quitting smoking is never a bad thing


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Assuming you are clean, well groomed, with fresh breath when you approach her.... And NO that can't always be assumed and a smelly body is a HUGE TURN OFF!

Assuming that once upon a time she did show reciprocal passion...

I agree with Catherine and Cheesepuff.

Present to your wife the image of the kind of man that she would be attracted to. Be confident.

During sex, next time it happens and you are clearly getting corpse sex, end it. Tell her you're sorry to have bothered her. It is clear by her lack of returned affection that she really isn't interested in you. Tell her you won't have her "suffer your attentions" again.

Are you meeting her needs? Are you sure about that? Does she feel neglected by you until you want sex? 

Have you two done the emotional needs questionnaire? Have you two taken the 5love language test?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Here's an obvious question: has your wife ever enjoyed the sex you have? Unfortunately many men assume that if a woman is having sex she must be enjoying it (thank you porn) but you can't make this assumption. Anything from her own hangups to you being a lousy, selfish lover could cause this. What does spicing things up mean? Are you asking for things that make her uncomfortable? For many people this translates to things they saw in porn, which is typically not for womens pleasure.
What is your relationship outside of the bedroom like? As some have asked, how is your appearance? Is there anything that could have caused her to detach from you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Tell her you're going to be having awesome sex tonight and you thought, out of courtesy, you'd invite her first.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

TimFrost said:


> Every time I try to spice things up or try to ask for more from her she gets mad and tells me that I know how she is and I need to respect her feelings more.


The response to that is simple. Tell her that she knows how *you* are, and she needs to respect *your* feelings more as well. Marriage is supposed to be 50/50. She needs to respect you enough to at least hear you out.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

During the early stages of fixing my marriage my husband also said he felt we should spice things up. I became so enraged I nearly laughed in his face.

You don't spice up a sex life until you spice up the emotional connection and the relationship that surrounds the sex life.

Men, women see sex as the expression of the relationship, or as an instinctive primal urge. If your married sex life is dull and boring, your wife finds YOU and the relationship dull and boring. 

Fix the relationship THEN fix the sex life.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> During the early stages of fixing my marriage my husband also said he felt we should spice things up. I became so enraged I nearly laughed in his face.
> 
> You don't spice up a sex life until you spice up the emotional connection and the relationship that surrounds the sex life.
> 
> ...


Yes, this. Often times when a man wants to "spice things up" it means incorporating something seen in porn. That's not necessarily a bad thing but as you said if the relationship is not well its not going to go over well. The actions OP describes are either someone that doesn't like him, or someone that doesn't like sex him with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

cheese puff said:


> I will give you the best advice my counselor gave me. Tell her how you feel, how men like to feel desired its natural for us, describe how it negatively effects your marriage and how changing it will improve your marriage. If she get defensive let her wear that problem it's her problem don't let her put it on you. give her a few days to think about it once she has got over the defensive behavior on her own, with out your apologies, try to talk again.


I agree with this. Making sure you are communicating CLEARLY with her is an absolute first step. I know you say you have told her how you feel, but I don't think she is "hearing" you. 

I don't know what your sexual history is--did you have a satisfying sex life at first? Did it fizzle after the kids? Were there other marital conflicts that you can point to that might have led to the deterioration of your sex life? All these things are relevant to ferreting out the cause of her lack of desire, but not matter what the cause, approaching her with CLEAR and REGULAR and UNAPOLOGETIC communication is key. What you are asking is not too much--it is what you can and should be able to expect from a spouse. 

1. Get her to tell you--absolutely honestly--if there are things YOU can do to make yourself more desirable to her. I'm not talking about having you do more housework or buying her things, I'm talking about finding out if there are things about you (hygine, habits, attitude) that kill her libido, or things you do or used to do that really turn her on. Try not to react negatively if she lists a few things: take the info she gives to you and mull it over for a few days. Can you make these changes? Are they changes that you would like to make anyway? If they are changes that will generally improve your life, even if they ultimately don't improve your sex life, then consider putting in the effort to do them. 

2. Ask her to consider whether or not she is feeling resentment toward you (even old, unresolved resentments are libido killers.) Again, listen to what she says and consider it. Whether or not you feel you are to blame for any resentments she carries shouldn't be your primary concern: having her find a way to deal with and banish the resentments should be the focus. I think that individual counseling would be very beneficial if she struggles with resentment that affects her desire for you.

3. Tell her clearly, openly and often what sex WITH HER means to you. She has to be made to understand that you're not looking to use her to get your rocks off, but that you need to connect with her sexually in order to fully express your love for her, and to feel loved BY her. Women do not always have this same need, or don't feel it as keenly, and men do. 

4. Tell her clearly and openly how the constant sexual rejection affects you--not just how it affects your marriage, but how it affects your self esteem, your job performance, your ability to be a good father, your ability to fully enjoy your hobbies and other interests. This is something else that I think some women can be very "dense" about. We can often find outlets outside the marriage that make us feel loved and fulfilled personally and emotionally (e.g. close friendships with other women), but men cannot seek to have sexual-emotional needs met outside the marriage. If they are being denied the sexual connection at home, they are out of luck (unless they decide to cheat.) If you feel like you can't find a way to express these things in your own words, do some reading about it or ask her to, if she is willing. 

5. Finally, ask HER to take charge of this issue. Ask HER to read up on it--there are tons of books and Websites to choose from. Ask her to come up with a suggestion for improving your intimacy level other than just telling you to "live with it." Ask her to take responsibility for your marital happiness, not just her own. Make sure she understands that you are not demanding that she give in to you, but that she at least is a partner in finding something that works for you both--not just for her. 

I am not saying that your wife not "getting it" is the issue here, but it's the FIRST avenue to explore exhaustively and with great persistence. If, in the end, you feel you cannot reach her and she cannot be convinced that your health and the health of your marriage is in jeopardy, then yes, you move on to considering whether or not you want to stay in the marriage. At the end of the day, SHE has to be willing to work on this. In the mean time, do all you can to work on yourself. Continue to express what your emotional needs are, continue to express that they are not being met, continue to explain to her the consequences. 

Hang in there--it's not an easy road. Keep your integrity, work on keeping your own resentments at bay, try to stay open and loving towards your wife. You can't make her change, but perhaps you can make her want to change. If she does eventually come around, you will have done everything in your power possible to pave the way toward a happy, fulfilling marriage for BOTH of you. And she just might be eternally grateful, and want to express that to you every day.


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## easy_e (Sep 11, 2013)

OP, what other conversation topics are you unable to discuss with your W besides sex? Money, children discipline, house work etc....
Work on those topics first, one at a time to move past them. 

Also, when she is "defensive", are you in return being defensive as well? If your defending and she's defending.....you're not going to get very far.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

TimFrost said:


> Any time I try to bring up the subject of sex or my feelings about sex with my wife, she gets very defensive and angry. Then her first reaction is to tell me I don't respect her feelings and then I get the silent treatment and all affection stops. This usually lasts until I apologize.


Maybe I'm way off base here, but this does sound like a personality type I'm familiar with.

If you wrong them, they are offended (Which is understandable)

But if they wrong you and you point it out they are also offended 

They've got so much of their self esteem tied up into a mental image of perfection that it offends them when that image called into question. They are literally offended that you're unhappy. And in their mind, that offense outweighs anything else. 

These people are often classic overachievers who are so self critical that they still agonize over stupid things they've done twenty years or more after the fact. This can be tough to deal with because a direct, reasoned approach won't work.

I think some of the others, like Catherine602 have given some good advice. You wife really is watching everything you do.


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## cheese puff (Jul 24, 2011)

also wanted to add bring it up when your wife is in a good mood, dont ask for sex get turned down and try to bring it up. i would wait until a nonsexual time to bring it up.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Men, women see sex as the expression of the relationship, or as an instinctive primal urge. If your married sex life is dull and boring, your wife finds YOU and the relationship dull and boring.
> 
> Fix the relationship THEN fix the sex life.


Women, men see sex as integral to the relationship. So from the man's point of view, if you fix sex life, then that will fix the relationship. Many women don't understand this. 

I'm not saying that either view is always correct, but it means that it's better to try and work on both simultaneously. 

In any case, this isn't really applicable here because the OP is only trying to "spice up" his sex life by adding a little affection into it. It's not an unreasonable request.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Theseus said:


> Women, men see sex as integral to the relationship. So from the man's point of view, if you fix sex life, then that will fix the relationship. Many women don't understand this.
> 
> I'm not saying that either view is always correct, but it means that it's better to try and work on both simultaneously.
> 
> In any case, this isn't really applicable here because the OP is only trying to "spice up" his sex life by adding a little affection into it. It's not an unreasonable request.



I think this dichotomy about sums up the standoff that so many couples find themselves in. How to approach resolving it depends on the details of the relationship and of the personalities of the players. 

In some cases, both spouses can work on the issue together and somewhat harmoniously. However, it seems to me (in cases where one spouse feels like sex is lacking) things are contentious, fingers are pointed, and defenses are up. 

One spouse often has to take the leap and just try giving the other spouse what they need in the hopes that they then can eventually reciprocate. 

Sometimes all it takes is one spouse showing effort for the other spouse to want to do the same. I think that's what happened in my case. My husband made some changes that took enough pressure off of me so that I could then address my LD and completely turn it around. I can attest that having regular sex and intimacy back in our marriage has improved it tremendously, and now I feel comfortable asking him to work with me on some of the things that I need. 

It's a give and take, but the work needed to progress is not always equal at any given point in time. You can't keep score along the way, because sometimes you'll be pulling more than your fair share, and sometimes you'll flounder while your spouse does the work. I think the process takes more patience than most people have to spare, to be honest. There just is no guarantee of success, and in many cases the situation has both parties worn down beyond hope.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Theseus said:


> *Women, men see sex as integral to the relationship. So from the man's point of view, if you fix sex life, then that will fix the relationship. Many women don't understand this. *
> 
> I'm not saying that either view is always correct, but it means that it's better to try and work on both simultaneously.
> 
> In any case, this isn't really applicable here because the OP is only trying to "spice up" his sex life by adding a little affection into it. It's not an unreasonable request.


I couldn't agree to the bolded part more!

Unfortunately, as far as we know, OP's wife isn't here or she would be getting a lecture from the club of former LD wives. Therefore, it's up to Mr. OP to make the changes.

It's not unreasonable to request a sex life day at the spa. But you don't dress up a corpse for dancing. First you have to reanimate....bwaaahhaaahhhaaaa It's ALIVE!


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

I notice you havent yet replied yet or given more details.
Divorce is really the only answer. Sorry.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

TimFrost said:


> Any time I try to bring up the subject of sex or my feelings about sex with my wife, she gets very defensive and angry. Then her first reaction is to tell me I don't respect her feelings and then I get the silent treatment and all affection stops. This usually lasts until I apologize.
> 
> I try not to let things bother me and keep my mouth shut. As long as she thinks I am fine with our sex life then everything is calm and normal. At least normal as she sees it.
> 
> ...



Dear OP, you should read the book "THE WAY OF THE SUPERIOR MAN" by David Deida.

The main theory in that book when it comes to relationships is that the more a man absorbs and conveys female traits, the more his woman absorbs and begins to convey male traits in order to keep the relationship in balance.
It also states that the woman strives to make the man more soft (this is explained on a biological basis). The moment he is so soft that he in general tends to the female traits, she loses sexual interest in him, later she loses interest in their relationship.

So you always focusing on her not giving you enough affection is rather a female trait. If we believe the theory of Deida, your wife is more aggresive because you are to much on the female side of the equation. Believe it or not, the moment you focus on beieng manly, it wont take days and affection and more female power will come back into your relationship.

So stop talking about your feelings if she isnt talking about hers
Also stop appologizing for your needs. If it is your need for more affection, u do better to stand to it but in a manly way. But let me remind you about the old saying:

"you cannot buy or force love"

Hence you complaining about it wont summon it.

Right now, I dont see any need for divorce (unless you really want to leave her), I see a lot of space for your personal growth.


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## TimFrost (Sep 19, 2013)

Sorry I took so long to respond. been busy with work and household stuff.

To answer some of the questions I have seen. Other than our sex life we get along great, can talk about anything (except sex).

The sex was more spontaneous and more frequent during the first 3-5 years then just tapered off to about 2-3 times a month. She almost never initiates and when she does it's basically just her saying, "you wanna fool around?" Never actually seducing me or being frisky with me or anything like that. Just the one sentence then I take over and it's sex as usual. 

Usual sex for us is her to my left on her back and we kiss a lot. My hands roam around caressing and massaging. during this time she may put her hand on my arm or not at all. I try to do anything I can to make her feel good in hopes that she will reciprocate but she doesn't. 

Once she is aroused then its time for the main event and I feel like I have to be ready to perform but can't because I feel like she isn't there for me. It's like duty sex that starts out because it's been a while and she needs to pacify me but then it turns into me feeling used for her pleasure until nature takes over and she gets her O then I get mine as fast as possible so we can go to bed or get on with our day. depending on when we have sex.

Sometimes I actually give her massages and leg stretches to help her relax. These extra massages are not usually done for foreplay but just to make her feel good. Even though I do these for her she still feels the need to tell me once I am done that she knows I'd like to fool around but she just doesn't feel like it but thank you anyway. The part of this that bothers me is that I am not expecting sex and didn't even hint at it and she still finds a way to reject me in case I was planning to ask.

In her defense she does work full time and do I. and she is going back to school for her masters degree. So to make it easier for her I do the cooking, laundry, grocery shopping, school stuff with my youngest and a good portion of the cleaning. (she wont let any of us clean the main bathroom cuz she feels we don't do a good enough job...lol)

To finally sum it up...
It's not the quantity of sex but the quality. I don't feel desired or wanted. 

Oh yeah for that one poster who asked...lol YES I do shower and shave everyday. usually before she gets home from work.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Works full time and in a masters program...so you two are having maintenance sex. Different from duty sex, where she gives in but isn't really into it. Maintenance sex isn't about desire or lust or passionate feelings. It's about getting each other off with minimal effort in order to keep the bond maintained.

You need to start getting away from home at least once a month, just to bring the spark back.

You say she rolls over and asks if you wanna fool around but you wish she would do more, act seductive, be sexier. Have you asked her to wear something sexy? Have you taken her dance and kissed down the line of her neck? Have you made dinner then shoved it all to the side as you undress her and take her on the table?

I'm not suggesting this is all on you, but someone has to start to bring the passion, danger and surprise back into the sex life. Since you're the one here, I vote for you to do it. But once you've done it a few times, and she is a busy woman so timing may be important here, then you start making specific requests for a lingerie lap dance and if she can make you cum in under 5 minutes she gets to pick the hotel for the weekend get away. BTW, you better let her win the bet the first time...


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## TimFrost (Sep 19, 2013)

This is all well and good advice. But after many attempts and years of trying, no luck.
This has been going on for a long time and she has only been back in school for about 7 months now. and its completely online. Even on nights where she decides she is going to skip schoolwork because she doesn't feel like it, she just uses her time to watch TV and thus causing her to have to double up her schoolwork the next night.
It may be Maintenance sex now, but its been duty sex for about 10 years.

We went on a week long vacation about a month ago. This was the first time without the kids in 20 yrs of us being married. No passion during the whole week. we left on a Sunday and it was Thursday before I even got a kiss. As far as the vacation went we had a lot of fun and saw a lot of things we wanted to see. But no romance. I had decided to leave it up to her and see where it went...

Also, as far as asking for her to do things like lingerie or sexy play just gets her mad and defensive. Then we are back to me being the bad guy and not thinking of her feelings by asking for things that make her uncomfortable. and asking her to wear something sexy; she says its a waste of time and money because its only on for a few minutes then sex is the same as always.

I've done the flowers, poems, mix tapes with music to represent how much I love her. Then switched to mix CD's when the times have changed. I used to bring her a single carnation for the first 7 years of our marriage on the anniversary of our first date. she said to stop because it was a waste of money and its only going to die. I had a bouquet of flowers sent to her at work for our 20th wedding anniversary and I posted a story of how we met, became friends and fell in love on her facebook page. I know she seems very frugal to be thinking of money and I appreciate that but we are not that bad off financially and I tell her she is worth it to me. 

I just don't know what else to try. She refuses counseling since I am the one with issues. I went a few times but even though I have tried to better our relationship she like things the way they are.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

It must be very difficult for you to feel as if there is no hope to bring the passion and longing back into your relationship.

Does your wife make you feel like your desire for passion is perverted? Does her response, or lack thereof, make you feel kind of guilty for wanting this? If so, that's the first thing that I suggest you work on. There is nothing AT ALL wrong with wanting a passionate and explorative sex life with your wife. That's what you tell your self, and that's what you tell your wife. If she feels wanting that is wrong, if she doesn't see how good that is for both of you individually and together as a couple, then she is the one who needs help.

If that is the case, then it's time to do the MAP. Read Married Man's Sex Life Primer, google it. Follow it. Become it.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Works full time and in a masters program...so you two are having maintenance sex. Different from duty sex, where she gives in but isn't really into it. Maintenance sex isn't about desire or lust or passionate feelings. It's about getting each other off with minimal effort in order to keep the bond maintained.


I agree that it's happening, but I disagree that the issue is her full-time worker and part-time student status. It's worth noting that the OP is just as busy working full time and keeping the kids busy while his wife is studying.

So, the question is: why - if he is as busy as she - does he have the time to pursue a more passionate but she does not? The answer (obviously) is that she does have the time, but chooses to prioritize other activities ahead of sex.

What seems to be happening here is that she knows she is a bad sexual partner. She has just "checked out" of sex. She is being selfish and realizes discussing the matter doesn't benefit her. The outcome of a discussion will be (1) she will agree to provide better sex for him (and be held accountable for this), or (2) he will better know that she doesn't care enough about him to try any harder (and that will cause him to not be as attentive to her).

She would consider either of those outcomes a "loss". She does not care to get counseling. So, that leaves only refusing to acknowledge her issue, by:

* Promising to do better at some future time, and/or
* Saying she would like to do better but cannot because of extenuating circumstances out of her control, and/or
* telling him his expectations are unreasonable ("that's wrong", "nobody has sex that much", etc.), and/or
* telling him to piss off ("I don't care what I did or promised", "I'm happy the way things are", "you can leave if you want but it will cost you", etc.) and hoping he relents.

To the OP:

By now, it should be clear that she will never change on her own. She simply is not motivated to go out of her comfort zone to meet your need. She may legitimately think that your needs are not as important as what she has going on, or she might just not give a crap. It really does not matter, and here's why:

Your approach should be that your sexual needs are enough of a priority to be accomodated. You are not looking to lay blame for these issues, but cannot ignore her unwillingness to get help for an issue that is a serious threat to the marriage. And, yes, that does mean divorce is a possibility here.

So, her unwillingness to get professional help does not absolve her of the responsibility to be a good wife to you. Your clear expectation is that she will find the wherewithal to make the changes herself, since she refuses professional help. Your preference would be that she address the underlying issues rather than avoid them or make band-aid fixes. But you cannot force her to do that - you can only express a clear and reasonable expectation and hold her accountable. You will expect her to provide a good experience however she wants to gear herself up to provide it.

Now, obviously you don't want her to force herself to have sex with you every time. The desired outcome is that she sees it in her best interest to keep you happy sexually, which drive her to agree to get help for your marital issues.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

GettingIt--
This new version of your approach is very well composed. I was actually heading down this track even before I found the TAM site. I thought I'd reply with a few ideas you might want to include in your future versions.

One thing I'd add, is to first *be sure you're unambiguous in your own mind*. After reading lots of TAM, I realized the problems in my marriage were never really so terrible, but I became clear, I wanted a better marriage, including, but not limited to better and more sex. To start with, I have a great wife, and the main sexual problem is just that I react to life's big difficulties by wanting more sex, while she reacts by wanting less.

This thought has stayed with me for nearly a year now, *"I am eager to humiliate myself, as necessary, in seeking a better marriage, even for a small amount of progress."
*
In particular, I freely, but not excessively, explain when I'd masturbated and how wished she'd been there for me the night before. I explained to her that for some time I've been in the habit at night of touching her just with my toe at night, in order that I feel her near me, but not become aroused. I've been relentless in eliminating my few remaining barriers to intimacy and calling her out on her's (after all these years they are really very easy for me to spot). If she doesn't "leave a tender moment alone," I react immediately.

Overall, if your spouse metaphorically stabs you, the imperative response is, do not metaphorically stab back, instead you must metaphorically bleed. "Honey, what you just said hurts!" When she gets sick of seeing all of your metaphorical blood all over the place, eventually she'll stop. Think of your spouse as a part of your body. You don't get "mad" at your head, when you have a headache.

Finally, there are a lot of posts, unlike yours, advising what sounds like "play hard to get." I've tried to imagine under what circumstances this might be helpful, but I'm sure not for me. In a way, that was a failed strategy of the past.

I don't usually quote an entire posting, but yours is great for everyone to re-read:



GettingIt said:


> I agree with this. Making sure you are communicating CLEARLY with her is an absolute first step. I know you say you have told her how you feel, but I don't think she is "hearing" you.
> 
> I don't know what your sexual history is--did you have a satisfying sex life at first? Did it fizzle after the kids? Were there other marital conflicts that you can point to that might have led to the deterioration of your sex life? All these things are relevant to ferreting out the cause of her lack of desire, but not matter what the cause, approaching her with CLEAR and REGULAR and UNAPOLOGETIC communication is key. What you are asking is not too much--it is what you can and should be able to expect from a spouse.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

bestyet2be said:


> Overall, if your spouse metaphorically stabs you, the imperative response is, do not metaphorically stab back, instead you must metaphorically bleed. "Honey, what you just said hurts!" When she gets sick of seeing all of your metaphorical blood all over the place, eventually she'll stop. Think of your spouse as a part of your body. You don't get "mad" at your head, when you have a headache.:


If your spouse cared about your reaction to stabbing they would not have done it... You're expecting emotional responses such as love and understanding and compassion from someone who just stabbed you?

If your spouse was part of you, then you would not have this issue. It is because the spouse is a different person altogether with their own agenda that those things happen...


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

john117 said:


> If your spouse cared about your reaction to stabbing they would not have done it... You're expecting emotional responses such as love and understanding and compassion from someone who just stabbed you?
> 
> If your spouse was part of you, then you would not have this issue. It is because the spouse is a different person altogether with their own agenda that those things happen...


OK, that's restating the problem. Yawn.

( I'm thinking of people who do have a memory of a time in their past where there was a loving, sexual relationship! ):

Your pride is a poor substitute for love, sex, really pride is a poor substitute for lots of things.

As AnonPink pointed out, "but someone has to start... Since you're the one here, I vote for you."

Look at it this way: You, as a member of the stronger sex (whichever that one is ) need to make the decision that you would rather sacrifice everything, spend years humiliating yourself for the sake of your marriage, and fail, than to have a shred of doubt that you didn't do everything within your power.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Marriage is a concept, much like multiplication. If you frame the question in terms of more tangible objects or objectives, the "sacrifice" becomes considerably less significant.

After 25 good years I figured I got my Euros' worth from my wife in conceptual terms. Now all that matters is tuition checks for my daughters' college. I don't have to be one with my wife to keep those coming, so I'm free to morph our marriage into a cafeteria style benefit plan. Sure, some things on the menu are unavailable or available at a cost higher than I am willing to pay, in which case I choose what I need, pay for what I need, and ignore the rest.

In other words, the financial security of my kids' future trumps the last five years worth of emotional detachment. If I was the emotional basket case that requires 5 or 5^2 love languages to be happy, I might reconsider. For now indifference is preferred.


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## RedRose14 (Aug 15, 2013)

john117 said:


> Marriage is a concept, much like multiplication. If you frame the question in terms of more tangible objects or objectives, the "sacrifice" becomes considerably less significant.
> 
> After 25 good years I figured I got my Euros' worth from my wife in conceptual terms. Now all that matters is tuition checks for my daughters' college. I don't have to be one with my wife to keep those coming, so I'm free to morph our marriage into a cafeteria style benefit plan. Sure, some things on the menu are unavailable or available at a cost higher than I am willing to pay, in which case I choose what I need, pay for what I need, and ignore the rest.
> 
> In other words, the financial security of my kids' future trumps the last five years worth of emotional detachment. If I was the emotional basket case that requires 5 or 5^2 love languages to be happy, I might reconsider. For now indifference is preferred.


Are you going to do anything about your marriage once your children are adults and no longer financially dependent on you?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Depends on wife's state of mind in a decade. Our finances are too entangled to make an amiable split likely and a protracted legal battle benefits neither one of us. So....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It depends on what is possible or even likely actually. If we were to game-theory my marriage I would say she would need to understand that a minimum effort from her part would result in significant benefits to her. It's not rocket science. As I said I'm not the emotionally needy 5^2 love languages type, so it is not too difficult to match my requirements if she so desires. 

Now I don't want to sound cold hearted and I'm fully cognizant of her mental state, but a little effort would go a long way. Since she's not willing to consider this path this provides me an opening to act as I see fit as well....


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## RedRose14 (Aug 15, 2013)

x


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## RedRose14 (Aug 15, 2013)

x


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## TimFrost (Sep 19, 2013)

?????


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

bestyet2be said:


> Look at it this way: You, as a member of the stronger sex (whichever that one is ) need to make the decision that you would rather sacrifice everything, spend years humiliating yourself for the sake of your marriage, and fail, than to have a shred of doubt that you didn't do everything within your power.


The problem with your strategy is that it gives women exactly what they don't want. You write that a husband must be willing to humiliate himself for years in order to improve his marriage. Well, that would work great if women were interested in low-value men who were eager to be humiliated. The thing is, that's not what women want. They want high-value men who are not easy to humiliate. Each time a husband willingly humiliates himself, he makes his wife just a little less attracted to him. Eventually, the thought of sex with him will completely repulse her.

What good is it to devote all of your time and energy doing something that repulses your wife? Just so you can say you put a lot of effort into it? You might as well advise husbands to dig holes in their back yard and then fill them back in. That would certainly take a great deal of effort. What wife wouldn't be won over seeing her husband digging hole after hole, for years, in her yard? Well, most women, to be truthful. They would probably divorce sooner and all their girlfriends will sympathetically listen to her stories of her idiot husband who spent all his time digging holes in the yard.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

TimFrost said:


> ?????


A prior poster had the best advice.
Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.


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## Chris Fabiani (Oct 23, 2013)

Firstly you need to *stop chasing* it so much. It gives off a needy/*desperate* vibe which is unattractive to a woman.

Secondly, you need to concentrate on bringing a bit more of a spark back into the relationship first and foremost.

Make her feel feminine. Make her feel appreciated. Hang out with your friends sometimes so you have some space from each other, it's very important to have your own lives as well. A very very *SMALL* amount of positive-jealousy works wonders.

Focus on increasing her attraction for you and re-kindling the spark. When your relationship improves so will your sex life.

Also if you would consider yourself out of shape, try getting in better shape and looking better. Also, I'm not saying it's you, but a lot of people totally overlook personal hygiene. Make sure you are clean and hygienic in every department. Make an effort to smell good too.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Chris Fabiani said:


> Firstly you need to *stop chasing* it so much. It gives off a needy/*desperate* vibe which is unattractive to a woman.
> 
> Secondly, you need to concentrate on bringing a bit more of a spark back into the relationship first and foremost.
> 
> Make her feel feminine. Make her feel appreciated. Hang out with your friends sometimes so you have some space from each other, it's very important to have your own lives as well. A very very *SMALL* amount of positive-jealousy works wonders.


Perhaps building up your masculine side outside of her, will help her to behave more feminine around you. Feminine is good, because it is complementary to masculinity. 



Chris Fabiani said:


> Focus on increasing her attraction for you and re-kindling the spark. When your relationship improves so will your sex life.
> 
> Also if you would consider yourself out of shape, try getting in better shape and looking better. Also, I'm not saying it's you, but a lot of people totally overlook personal hygiene. Make sure you are clean and hygienic in every department. Make an effort to smell good too.


What kind of things can you do outside her to raise your own self image, and confidence, your overall spark outside of her? This is the challenge.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

TimFrost said:


> This is all well and good advice. But after many attempts and years of trying, no luck.
> This has been going on for a long time and she has only been back in school for about 7 months now. and its completely online. Even on nights where she decides she is going to skip schoolwork because she doesn't feel like it, she just uses her time to watch TV and thus causing her to have to double up her schoolwork the next night.
> It may be Maintenance sex now, but its been duty sex for about 10 years.
> 
> ...


serve her D papers. You can always stop the process but you need to demand some respect and your prude, selfish wife needs a wake up call. . Do you want a friend or a wife? What the heck is wrong with these damn spouses. I mean really. WTF . She is a selfish bit** dude
I would not put up with this at all. You have for way too long. time to stop being a wimp and do something real and drastic and get her attention. tell her counseling is necessary or you are moving on to find a more complete and enjoyable existence elsewhere. She sucks. (metaphorically apparently)


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