# Are the cheaters really worth it?



## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

I have been reviewing and reading all the information about no contact and 180 and such and I have come to the conclusion that if a spouse really needs to be watched over and no contact letters need to be sent and emails have to be watched - is it really worth being in a relationship with this person? It undermines the whole fabric of a relationship - trust! If you can't trust the one you are with and need to watch over them - how much are they worth to your relationship? Might as well let them go. It is like trying to keep a naughty child from misbehaving - you can't and it isn't worth it.


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## Leuven (Oct 1, 2012)

Depends on what you feel
if you think your cheater is a good person who made a mistake and you can live with it, then go for it. and do what you need to feel better, control or not.
If you do not love your cheater anymore, then quit, and get a good live again.
But make sure that you can be in balance with yourself.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Every situation is unique. If the WS is truly remorseful and makes significant changes in his/her life to ensure the BS that it's crystal clear transparency from here on out, then I think it could be worth the fight. However, if the WS is not fully committed to rebuilding trust, i.e. by not volunteering information about whereabouts, correspondence and still wants to have "me" time or "alone" time by going out with friends after the betrayal - then no it isn't worth the time or effort to try to reconcile. JMHO.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

The monitoring would only apply to those wanting to reconcile, and who are trying to rebuild trust. Trust, but verify, to ensure the trust us not misplaced.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Let me use an analogy. (And I'm speaking as a Devi's Advocate here)

At a certain point in life, the woman in your life is going to go through menopause. She'll be cranky, have hot and cold flashes, be distant, moody, sexually unresponsive, less then loving, etc.

Are you planning on dumping her because 'she's not worth it'? Of course not. You give her time to get over this 'illness' in her life.

The idea about watching (For a while) is to allow your spouse to mentally and morally recenter themselves. They are, the theory goes, NOT in their right mind and making lousy decsions...but this too shall pass.

They call it 'The Fog' and a REPENTENT spouse will take a bit to get out of it...and the BS will take even longer to regain that trust.

IF your spouse is repenetent, then the 'checking' is more for YOU, the betrayed, not them.

If it does NOT get better, then that is also information you need to boot their butts out of your life.

But it is a moral stance to give the person time to GET BETTER. If they choose not to...


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> I have been reviewing and reading all the information about no contact and 180 and such and I have come to the conclusion that if a spouse really needs to be watched over and no contact letters need to be sent and emails have to be watched - is it really worth being in a relationship with this person? It undermines the whole fabric of a relationship - trust! If you can't trust the one you are with and need to watch over them - how much are they worth to your relationship? Might as well let them go. It is like trying to keep a naughty child from misbehaving - you can't and it isn't worth it.


I agree. They are not worth it and based on many posts here, many people who think they are in a good reconciliation end up finding out the cheater is still in contact with the OW or still cheating in some way. 

Marriage is about trust.

One betrayed women here asked me if I thought that my husband cheated because I gave him no structure. 

Well, my spouse is not a six year old and I am not his mother who needs to structure his time so he grows into a responsible adult. 

He should already be a responsible adult at his age. 

Personally, IMO, most people are just wasting their time with a cheater.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Watch, observe only if you R.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

It's only worth it if both parties deem it worth it. 

Many couples/marriages do survive infidelity, but there has to be committment from both parties to do so (and of course, no contact forever with teh AP).

On the flip side, many couples/marriages do not survive it because both parties are not committed to restoring the relationship.

It ultimately comes down to the individual couple.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

My wife would agree with you. Immediately after Dday she did the checking my emails and such that is perfectly normal, but when I offered her all my passwords she refused them - still does to this day. She says she is not going to live that way, that if I am going to cheat again she can't stop me but that sooner or later I'll get caught and in that scenario there is no third chance. Fundamentally she's right and I admire her strength and confidence to be willing to live that way. I also appreciate the trust and responsibility it puts on me. Were it me though - were the tables reversed - I'd be a spying, checking, PI fool. But that's just me.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

serial cheaters aren't worth it in my opinion.


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## Son of Kong (Jul 12, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> My wife would agree with you. Immediately after Dday she did the checking my emails and such that is perfectly normal, but when I offered her all my passwords she refused them - still does to this day. She says she is not going to live that way, that if I am going to cheat again she can't stop me but that sooner or later I'll get caught and in that scenario there is no third chance. Fundamentally she's right and I admire her strength and confidence to be willing to live that way. I also appreciate the trust and responsibility it puts on me. Were it me though - were the tables reversed - I'd be a spying, checking, PI fool. But that's just me.


In the beginning checking up on them is sort of a comfort for the BS, I don't check up on my wife as much as I used to although some days when I am feeling insecure or have triggered I will. She knows this and understands it is something I must do to feel better but I can't see checking up on her forever sooner or later you just have to let it go. Besides if you really think about it anyone who really knows what they are doing and are real careful could cheat with multiple people and you would never know. Lucky for us everyone gets lazy and complacent sooner or later and then they get caught.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> I agree. They are not worth it and based on many posts here, many people who think they are in a good reconciliation end up finding out the cheater is still in contact with the OW or still cheating in some way.
> 
> Marriage is about trust.
> 
> ...


there might be something to this. For example, at one point my fiancé told me that he would respond to his EA's text message anyway that I wanted.

I took his offer and told him exactly what to write, which he did. On an all woman's message board, I was chastised and told that even though he made that offer, it was not mine to take.

One thing I felt certain about, was that if I passed on the offer, then I could never become upset with how he went about his relationship with her.

On another occasion, he offered to de friend her on Facebook. I immediately said yes, because if I ever saw that he wrote on her FB wall after turning his down his offer, well, could I really get mad about that.

So one could interpret providing structure to mean to taking an active role in how to manage relationships and not being shy on what you really want, particularly when your partner is making offers.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> there might be something to this. For example, at one point my fiancé told me that he would respond to his EA's text message anyway that I wanted.
> 
> I took his offer and told him exactly what to write, which he did. On an all woman's message board, I was chastised and told that even though he made that offer, it was not mine to take.
> 
> ...


Here's the problem with this type of thinking. 

It is well documented that a lot of immature women and men start to see their spouse or GF as a mother or father figure. 

This is NOT healthy way to see your spouse. 

Such people are prone to cheating and cheating again after caught like an errant defiant teenager. 

He should not be asking you what to do. 

He should KNOW WHAT HE DID IS WRONG, AND HE SHOULD KNOW WHAT HIS RESPONSE NEEDS TO BE.

If he is so dependent on you that he needs to ask you how to diss his affair partner, he is too immature to handle a real long term marriage.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> Here's the problem with this type of thinking.
> 
> It is well documented that a lot of immature women and men start to see their spouse or GF as a mother or father figure.
> 
> ...



thanks for reminding me of that. He did say on his own that he will avoid her now completely. And quite nicely dissed her invite to connect on LinkedIn.

I wonder how you balance this. Because personally if I offer to do something, I hate when the other person plays coy and says, do what you think is best. I want the other person to have an opinion as well.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Many articles I have read say the wayward spouse will continue the affairs or start new ones. How could anyone trying to R ever trust that this will not happen again? 

What seems to happen is, the unfaithful spouse loses respect or curiosity about their partner. This combines with natural chemical changes in the brain. Once these occur, there seems, at least in my mind, no way to recover. The new 'connections' in the brain become trained by the constant use of them. The chemicals released by our glands support and enforce these new feelings and thoughts.

We can retrain ourselves to accept the past, but I think it would be difficult to nearly impossible for the wayward spouse to actually want and desire to be in the previous relationship. They have trained their bodies and minds, in a sense, to accept what has happened. Their thought processes and the emotions associated have all changed. Unless the BS changes in a similar or maybe an opposite manner, I can't understand how these couples could truly have a good, strong relationship. 

I sometimes think the BS needs to experience the feelings and emotions of the wayward. I can only see this happening if the two get back together and after trust is reestablished, commit adultery on the former wayward spouse. This cannot be a good solution. Trust will be broken again.

I know of couple who never seem to actually fall "in love". They want to be around each other and are good to each other. They just never seem to really trust or love in a deep emotional sense. Is this love? Is this what we crave? What gain is there in a relationship such as this? I don't know. I am still thinking about this.

Sometimes I think the solution is to just learn the ways of the cheater and follow. You won't get your heart broken if you never fully commit. Instead of lies, just don't talk about anything which will endanger the relationship? Be extremely discreet? Always have a backup lover and plan for your life without your partner?

I think it is different when the relationship is new and nothing like this has occurred, yet. There is mutual respect and a curiosity to know the other person. There are new pathways of thinking made in the brain. There is a chemical response which supports these changes.

What do you think?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> thanks for reminding me of that. He did say on his own that he will avoid her now completely. And quite nicely dissed her invite to connect on LinkedIn.
> 
> I wonder how you balance this. Because personally if I offer to do something, I hate when the other person plays coy and says, do what you think is best. I want the other person to have an opinion as well.


I am not an expert. I am only a betrayed spouse. 

I can tell you that my own cheating and STBEH only started acting truly remorseful, when I filed and stopped telling him what to do. 

I told him to do what he thought was best and that it was important to me that he make these decisions on his own. 

Since filing, I have gotten no more anonymous letters about any bad behaviors such as him casually running into the OW and speaking with her, or him going to men's clubs. 

Sadly, I simply don't care, anymore, and no longer want to be married to someone whom I distrust and feel the need to check up on all the time. 

I gave him one shot at reconciliation and he blew it. 

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. 

There will NOT be a third time. 

I solved that threat by filing.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I think that's a very clinical way of stating "once a cheater always a cheater" which just ain't true. 

I will always be guilty of cheating, but I can assure you I will eat broken glass before I would cheat again and I can also assure you that I love my wife very much. 

I understand what you're saying, but it makes no allowance for the reconnection and improvement of a marriage that can occur post infidelity. That's not to say that the reconnection and improvements are normal or typical, but they can and do happen.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

If an affair is worth the risk of losing what took so long to build, what would justify the effort to rebuild a marriage?

Is this reason a good solid foundation for rebuilding a life-long commitment?


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

I have not and will not ever tolerate cheating and it will be over if that ever occurs in my marriage - and no excuses will be accepted.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Many articles I have read say the wayward spouse will continue the affairs or start new ones. How could anyone trying to R ever trust that this will not happen again?
> 
> What seems to happen is, the unfaithful spouse loses respect or curiosity about their partner. This combines with natural chemical changes in the brain. Once these occur, there seems, at least in my mind, no way to recover. The new 'connections' in the brain become trained by the constant use of them. The chemicals released by our glands support and enforce these new feelings and thoughts.
> 
> ...


Please don't allow your spouses cheating turn you too into a cheater. 

I agree with you though that it's impossible for a marriage too be stronger after a betrayal. 

The marriage may survive, but it will never be stronger. It may be OKAY, but never stronger. 

Articles state that in the last ten years cheating has risen dramatically. 

Reasons given are: 

1 -too easy access to really raunchy internet porn which conditions the mind to crave novelty and that lead to seeking an in person affair partner. 

2- Easy and instant ways to communicate without your spouse knowing. 

In the days when there was a house phone as the only means to communicate the chance of a spouse or child answering the phone if an affair partner called was too great. 

To my mind however, they need to add a third reason to the reasons above. 

That third reason being all these ludicrous articles on the internet and books published in which some people claim that a marriage can be stronger after cheating. 

This thinking likely encourages cheating as a way to solve marital issues. 

Also, we can see how stressed out BS's who reconcile are simply by the fact that some are still posting on these boards 20 odd years after an affair. 

Sorry, my marriage can never be stronger after an affair. It may be salveagable, but it ain't gonna' be stronger. I don't care who says it will. 

Also, if you talk to divorce attorneys they will tell you that in most divorce cases, where there is no physical abuse cited, there is ALWAYS at least one incident of cheating lurking in the background, 

And, usually it is the betrayed spouse who files, even 20 years later, because they just can't get over the suspiscions and doubts and mistrust.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The question shouldn't be "Are THE cheaters worth it?". The question should be "Is MY cheater worth it?" Each BS has to answer that for themselves. You can't tell me that my cheater is or isn't worth it. I can't tell you whether yours is. 

As others have said, each cheater has to decide whether they are willing to do the work to keep their spouse or not. And each BS has to decide whether the WS is doing what they need to.

Of course, there are many BS's who feel stuck, stay for the children or for financial reasons, whatever, whose WS's just keep cheating right under their nose and they say "Don't do that" and the WS says "OK" and continues, and the BS's come on here and complain that their WS won't stop, and the BS's don't listen to any of the advice here and end up just looking pathetic. Those people are not in R. They are in denial.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> I think that's a very clinical way of stating "once a cheater always a cheater" which just ain't true.
> 
> I will always be guilty of cheating, but I can assure you I will eat broken glass before I would cheat again and I can also assure you that I love my wife very much.
> 
> I understand what you're saying, but it makes no allowance for the reconnection and improvement of a marriage that can occur post infidelity. That's not to say that the reconnection and improvements are normal or typical, but they can and do happen.


I agree, but it is statistically rare. 

Also, I assure you, the BS, in a reconciliation always holds some resentment and keeps a part of their heart forever hardened to prevent it from being fully broken to pieces again.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> The marriage may survive, but it will never be stronger. It may be OKAY, but never stronger. .....................................
> Sorry, my marriage can never be stronger after an affair. It may be salveagable, but it ain't gonna' be stronger. I don't care who says it will.


These two statements are different. Fine, tell me YOUR marriage could never be stronger. Don't tell me that MINE won't. There are quite a few examples here on TAM of couples who are years out and have much better relationships.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> I agree, but it is statistically rare.
> 
> Also, I assure you, the BS, in a reconciliation *always* holds some resentment and keeps a part of their heart forever hardened to prevent it from being fully broken to piece again.


How do you know this? And how do you know that, if this is the case, the BS wouldn't have felt that way whether with the WS or not?

These blanket statements don't serve anyone and are simply not true.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> These two statements are different. Fine, tell me YOUR marriage could never be stronger. Don't tell me that MINE won't. There are quite a few examples here on TAM of couples who are years out and have much better relationships.


I didn't. I wasn't talking to you. Was I?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> I agree, but it is statistically rare.
> 
> Also, I assure you, the BS, in a reconciliation always holds some resentment and keeps a part of their heart forever hardened to prevent it from being fully broken to piece again.


No doubt it forever changes the relationship. The statement "the marriage you had is over" couldn't be more true. 

My wife would be fool to trust me blindly ever again, but I could have told her that before I cheated. But I don't trust anything or anyone blindly so she and I start from different positions. The ironic thing is that I don't trust myself as much any more, but maybe that's just good boundaries?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> How do you know this? And how do you know that, if this is the case, the BS wouldn't have felt that way whether with the WS or not?
> 
> These blanket statements don't serve anyone and are simply not true.


I was asked my opinion and I gave it. 

I can totally understand why my statements have triggered you. But please respect my opinions. 

Again, my post was not responding to you, and I am not looking to argue with anyone.

Please pay attention to my post here in which I stated I was no expert only a Betrayed spouse


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## Son of Kong (Jul 12, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> I think that's a very clinical way of stating "once a cheater always a cheater" which just ain't true.
> 
> I will always be guilty of cheating, but I can assure you I will eat broken glass before I would cheat again and I can also assure you that I love my wife very much.
> 
> I understand what you're saying, but it makes no allowance for the reconnection and improvement of a marriage that can occur post infidelity. That's not to say that the reconnection and improvements are normal or typical, but they can and do happen.


If an R is to truly work than this is what the betrayed must believe, so far all that my wife has said leads me to think that this will never happen again. But as has been said before the blind trust that was there will never come back (unless we move to a deserted island) the betrayed must always be vigilant and that does take something away from the marriage.

One other thing I took my vows for better or worse and even though she shattered her vow to me does not mean my vow to her has ended as well if this ever happens again you will see the dust from me running away from her but not right now. 25+ years of being together deserves another chance.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> *Please don't allow your spouses cheating turn you too into a cheater.
> *
> I agree with you though that it's impossible for a marriage too be stronger after a betrayal.
> 
> ...


First off, isn't this the best way to harden your heart?

Secondly, and taking an obviously different stance, if the second bold print is true:

Why be in an exclusive relationship?

Why not participate in the obvious advantages of cheating?
a) heart protection
b) ready-made opportunity if you need to leave
c) it's going to happen in almost any relationship

Sarah8,
I have not determined what I will do. I am trying to get my head around what I want to do and why it's important to me.
I do not want to be the sucker ever again. I want to be the one who is strong enough to keep going. 

I don't want to ever again be tricked like I was. Maybe this is not possible. Maybe we can all be deceived. If that is the case, then I need to make some drastic changes in my life so I can handle the inevitable. 

I don't like being alone. I do not deserve this. I have done nothing to warrant the behavior of my ex. I have not deserved the punishment I have received from family, friends and associates. They judged, convicted, sentenced me and are carrying out the punishment. They have no right.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> I was asked my opinion and I gave it.


Using words like 'always' are blanket statements and in this case what you said simply isn't true. For those in the infancy of reconciliation it can be disheartening to be told that no matter what they do they will fail.



Sara8 said:


> I didn't. I wasn't talking to you. Was I?


Saying that no marriage can ever be stronger after infidelity is simply untrue, whether you are talking to me or not. 

I am sorry if my contradictions are upsetting you, but I feel it's my duty to point out that reconciliation *can* be the better option for those with truly remorseful WS's.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> If an affair is worth the risk of losing what took so long to build, what would justify the effort to rebuild a marriage?
> 
> Is this reason a good solid foundation for rebuilding a life-long commitment?


Well, you see that there, that's one of the real kickers, isn't it? Because in nearly every case, the affair is built on fantasy, on infatuation, it isn't grounded in reality, and people throw their lives away for practically nothing, though at the time, they feel they've met their soulmate, the ONE and only person who could ever really GET them. And it is just complete and utter bullsh!t! It's based mostly on projection and brain chemistry. It is such a tragic waste!

As to the other question, for me it depends on what you had before. Children would be a large factor. The character shown by the ws before and after the A would be important. My wife earned another chance by doing almost all the right things, by eventually doing all the right things actually. I don't think she deserves it (no cheater does after all), but in the end I felt I owed it to myself and to my kids to try to save our life. 

We absolutely cannot go back to the status quo though, and I would not want to. We have to actively work to have a better marriage, a healthy relationship, to be partners with, not roommates with animosity and kids. That marriage is well and truly dead! 

We are not better because of the infidelity, we are better despite it. Huge difference there, in fact we are much, much worse off due to the infidelity, but our efforts will allow us to get past it, for now and hopefully far into the future. It has not been easy, I feel I have paid a tremendous price for my forgiveness, in charting out grey area where I can survive, when it should be much more black and white! I also feel that price is worth it in the end, but I would not wish it upon anyone, it is truly sad and pathetic.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> I have been reviewing and reading all the information about no contact and 180 and such and I have come to the conclusion that if a spouse really needs to be watched over and no contact letters need to be sent and emails have to be watched - is it really worth being in a relationship with this person? It undermines the whole fabric of a relationship - trust! If you can't trust the one you are with and need to watch over them - how much are they worth to your relationship? Might as well let them go. It is like trying to keep a naughty child from misbehaving - you can't and it isn't worth it.


For me, nope not worth it however my marriage is young (4 yrs.) with no children. If he cheats, he is free to go to the OW.


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

While I agree that you must have trust for a marriage to work, in the case of infidelity that trust has to be built back up. There is a phrase that I hear a lot and have come to respect "Trust but Verify". In reconciliation, trust takes awhile to come back. I do not go through his email as often as I used to. And it helps to know that he no longer contacts that woman. To be truthful, I am also on the look out for her to try and contact my husband. If that ever happens I will be informing her BH again.

I figure that once a year goes by, if I still feel the need to check then the marriage is probably beyond repair.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> First off, isn't this the best way to harden your heart?
> 
> Secondly, and taking an obviously different stance, if the second bold print is true:
> 
> ...



Becoming an a$$hole in no way protects you from other a$$holes. To get to what is best about being in a relationship, you need to trust, you need to be vulnerable. There are no guarantees. You may get hurt. We are human, it is pretty much guaranteed you will get hurt to some degree. You may not deserve it, but life just isn't fair. There are bad people. There are also good people who do bad things. Humans fail, all the time, but they also succeed, and when they do it is wonderful. When they fail, well they have the opportunity to learn and grow, and hopefully do better.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> The marriage may survive, but it will never be stronger. It may be OKAY, but never stronger.


Sara, you know that the two of us are frequently in agreement, but I disagree with you here.

There's an assumption that people have about the level of connectedness that the spouses have BEFORE the affair. Not just right before the affair, but all the way back to when the two got married.

Here is what reconciling did for us--stripped it all down to the bare bone of "why are we together." That we are committed for the long haul, until the grave. We are still only in our 40's, so if we live to life expectancy, that's quite a ways to go, and we can't see around all turns in the road. But that is where we are now.

Of course we thought that way when we got married, or we wouldn't have taken the vows. But there is a certain naivete that two people in their 20's have about what marriage is all about. Somehow, we rather quickly took that for granted. It didn't really matter so much, before we had kids. But once we had kids, that toll really started to take.

No, the marriage isn't stronger in the sense that I don't have blind trust any more. The acknowledgement of both our failings, our core humanity, isn't altogether an awful thing to contemplate, however. As I said, stripped to bone, naked truth, no games played. We didn't have that before the affair.

Does that mean "I'm glad he had an affair"? Obviously, not. But again, the whole "Okay" after the affair suggests that what came before was so awesome that what came after could never supercede it. That, in my view, is just a flawed assumption if applied to all marriages.

From everything you've said about your ex / stbex, I would have divorced him too, so of course I'm not such a pollyanna about R.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> Becoming an a$$hole in no way protects you from other a$$holes. To get to what is best about being in a relationship, you need to trust, you need to be vulnerable. There are no guarantees. You may get hurt. We are human, it is pretty much guaranteed you will get hurt to some degree. You may not deserve it, but life just isn't fair. There are bad people. There are also good people who do bad things. Humans fail, all the time, but they also succeed, and when they do it is wonderful. When they fail, well they have the opportunity to learn and grow, and hopefully do better.


Then, when possible, the answer is to keep trying to R. It is the best way since we will just be hurt by someone else. What is that saying?

"better the devil you know than the devil you don't"


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> From everything you've said about your ex / stbex, I would have divorced him too, so of course I'm not such a pollyanna about R.


I am glad you mentioned that. 

Yes. To me, one episode of any type of infidelity involving sex or deceit i.e.:, financial, emotional, sexual, and R should be given a chance. 

A second incident and you are either dealing with a very immature person or a serial cheater. 

And, all stats show serial cheaters are hopeless. 

As I mentioned a gazillion times here. 

I thought our initial reconciliation was going very well. I actually believed we had better communication and trust was being rebuilt. 

He even called me five minutes after getting his lap dance, and he sounded loving and kind. I was clueless and oh so forgiving.

I only found out about the lapdance when I received another anonymous letter with a photograph of my STBEH getting a lap dance. 

So, I am glad you mentioned the circumstances vary. 

BTW: Shirley glass says that O men consider lap dances to be cheating and 79 percent of the women did. 

Also very few men consider oral sex to be cheating but 100 percent of the women did.

Anyway, I am glad you are happy and your R is going well.

For my part, I don't care about any good qualities my spouse has. I refuse to be disrespected in the way serial infidelity of any kind disrespects a spouse.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Son of Kong said:


> (unless we move to a deserted island) the betrayed must always be vigilant and that does take something away from the marriage.


Exactly. And I am not so much in denial that I don't realize that.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I am glad you mentioned that.
> 
> Yes. To me, one episode of any type of infidelity involving sex or deceit i.e.:, financial, emotional, sexual, and R should be given a chance.
> 
> ...


I was on the fence about things even as little as light flirting and looking at other women during my marriage.
I thought and stated, "We're not dead. It is our nature to look. I don't see what is wrong with it."

Since talking with a family member who has been cheated on, I have changed my thoughts. I do believe it is different for each of us. I must know what is considered taboo for my partner. I must ask and determine if I am comfortable with my partner's stance.

I always seem to come back to communication. If that is lacking, there is no chance. I must be open and honest and my partner must be open and honest with me. I think the only way to ensure this is to always be vigilant, always taking care to look for inaccuracies between spoken word and action.

I wanted to add, I have made my mistakes. I have not gone so far as to perform or have someone perform a sexual act. I have, however, _said_ some things which I now consider cheating. In my opinion, due to what I have experienced and learned, many may not consider these things cheating.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Then, when possible, the answer is to keep trying to R. It is the best way since we will just be hurt by someone else. What is that saying?
> 
> "better the devil you know than the devil you don't"


That's a very fatalistic attitude.

My thinking is that everyone needs to be happy on their own FIRST, and that only then can they choose to be with someone. No one should ever feel forced to be in a relationship for any reason. We need to know that we have the means and the fortitude to be by ourselves, and only then can we make the right choice of someone else to share our life with.

No one should EVER just keep trying to R because they figure everyone cheats and they'll never be happy. I really really think that most people should split up immediately when they find out their spouse cheated. Kick his ass out, right then and there. Be on your own, and find happiness. THEN decide if you want your spouse back or not.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Then, when possible, the answer is to keep trying to R. It is the best way since we will just be hurt by someone else. What is that saying?
> 
> "better the devil you know than the devil you don't"


I absolutely did not say that. I said r depends on a lot of things. In regards to the devil you know, I would go with the devil I don't know, all other things being equal. I say that because the devil I know has a proven track record of deceit, whereas the devil I don't does not. 

Still I could get burned with either.

In my case, I have enough invested, and I came to an understanding where I think my wife is basically a good person who made mistakes that led to an affair. I have chosen to attempt to salvage the wreckage she wrought. She has 1 chance, and 1 chance only. I expect zero chances, because I have her example to see the level of damage infidelity inflicts on the relationship.



What I will say unequivocally is that infidelity is NEVER a good choice. NEVER. Nothing good comes as a result. You think you would be protecting yourself, but in reality, if you have any decency at all, you harm yourself.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> That's a very fatalistic attitude.
> 
> My thinking is that everyone needs to be happy on their own FIRST, and that only then can they choose to be with someone. No one should ever feel forced to be in a relationship for any reason. *We need to know that we have the means and the fortitude to be by ourselves*, and only then can we make the right choice of someone else to share our life with.
> 
> No one should EVER just keep trying to R because they figure everyone cheats and they'll never be happy. I really really think that most people should split up immediately when they find out their spouse cheated. Kick his ass out, right then and there. *Be on your own, and find happiness.* THEN decide if you want your spouse back or not.


By the first "bold" statement, you are saying that some folks stay in a relationship because they can't support themselves financially and they need to learn to do this first? They then need to understand how to do the basics like, go to the doctor, buy and cook food, clean their living space and wash clothes?

As for the second "bold" statement, if I find happiness on my own, why would I want to be in a relationship? I don't need one to "complete" me, I would be content. I don't need someone to "make me a better person". I have done that on my own and am happy with myself.

I have read that these things are what makes a good relationship. If that is true, then we are not doing well on our own. We have not learned how to be "truly happy" with ourselves and we have not learned how to take care of ourselves.

I am playing devil's advocate. I need to hear responses and opinions. I thank you all for the one's given so far.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> I absolutely did not say that. I said r depends on a lot of things. In regards to the devil you know, I would go with the devil I don't know, all other things being equal. I say that because the devil I know has a proven track record of deceit, whereas the devil I don't does not.
> 
> Still I could get burned with either.
> 
> ...


I do believe this.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> By the first "bold" statement, you are saying that some folks stay in a relationship because they can't support themselves financially and they need to learn to do this first? They then need to understand how to do the basics like, go to the doctor, buy and cook food, clean their living space and wash clothes?


It could be that drastic I suppose, although from the posts here on TAM it's more likely to be someone such as a stay at home mom whose husband cheats and she has no income of her own. Or a young person who has never lived on their own, who was brought up to always think they needed to be married to be happy. And of course the ones who 'stay for the kids' - WORST reason on the planet. Society tells us we need to have a spouse to be happy - many people have never even thought about the possibility that they COULD be happy on their own.



2ntnuf said:


> As for the second "bold" statement, if I find happiness on my own, why would I want to be in a relationship? I don't need one to "complete" me, I would be content. I don't need someone to "make me a better person". I have done that on my own and am happy with myself.


EXACTLY. Once you realize this, being with someone else becomes a CHOICE. You can be happy on your own, you don't need someone else. But you will be happiER with this person. At the same time, you do not NEED this person in your life, so you won't end up staying with someone you shouldn't.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> It could be that drastic I suppose, although from the posts here on TAM it's more likely to be someone such as a stay at home mom whose husband cheats and she has no income of her own. Or a young person who has never lived on their own, who was brought up to always think they needed to be married to be happy. And of course the ones who 'stay for the kids' - WORST reason on the planet. Society tells us we need to have a spouse to be happy - many people have never even thought about the possibility that they COULD be happy on their own.
> 
> 
> 
> EXACTLY. Once you realize this, being with someone else becomes a CHOICE. You can be happy on your own, you don't need someone else. * But you will be happiER* with this person. At the same time, you do not NEED this person in your life, so you won't end up staying with someone you shouldn't.


This is what I am trying to understand. Sorry for being so difficult. I am not trying to be difficult. I am trying to think logically and explain what I am thinking.

If I am happy and content with my life on my own, I will not be happier with someone else. I will be as happy as I can be.

You see, I felt this way when I got married a little over 7 years ago. I did not need to get married and I told her. I liked what I was doing and found myself to be quite happy. 

After some time into the marriage, not sure when this happened, I found it was her that needed me to change. I stated clearly and openly that I did not need to get married and I would be happy if we lived together or not. I stated how, if she thought she would change me, it would not happen. I would need to want to change before I could.

Now, because I grew into a deep love with her, because she did make me happier, I find myself struggling, at times, to deal with everyday life. I am worse off because she was not honest with herself.

I loved, loved, loved being married. I thought we were so much better together than as individuals. We accomplished many things which I never before thought possible.

WTF? Why do this and then get into an affair? I thought we were on the cusp of realizing all our hopes and dreams. They were all right there at our fingertips, then they were gone.

Oh well, I will never know, but I may learn how to keep this from happening again, but is it worth it?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

If you don't think you'll be happier with the other person, then yeah, there's no reason to get married. Maybe I shouldn't be using the word 'happy' to describe what people should be when they're on their own. A more accurate description would be that they are 'perfectly fine'. Everyone needs to know that they CAN make it on their own and that they never need to depend on another person for their own contentment and/or happiness, whatever you want to call it.

Many who have been cheated on will bring that to their next relationship, and very few people are able to handle a spouse who is constantly suspicious of them when they haven't done anything to warrant it.

The fact your wife wanted you to change is a comment on her immaturity. If you can't accept your spouse warts and all, you also shouldn't be with them.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Yeah, she never said she wanted me to change. That would have been fine. We could have had some good intimate discussions and maybe even learned new things about ourselves.


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## Jeffery (Oct 8, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I agree. They are not worth it and based on many posts here, many people who think they are in a good reconciliation end up finding out the cheater is still in contact with the OW or still cheating in some way.
> 
> Marriage is about trust.
> 
> ...


i agree one a cheater it is no longer worth it


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

delete


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

hookares said:


> The only thing you can really depend on from a cheater is that no matter how they try to sell it, *they will never take the blame for their actions* and they will never cease to try to get you to take them back when things go sour for them.
> Otherwise, they are a lot of fun for other people.


Come on now. I'll freely admit that's true of most cheaters, it's certainly stereotypical, but it's not true of all cheaters.


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## The bishop (Aug 19, 2012)

We are not!!


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Many who have been cheated on will bring that to their next relationship, and very few people are able to handle a spouse who is constantly suspicious of them when they haven't done anything to warrant it.


This is what I worry about. I know I am not near ready to even think about dating again until I get through more IC for myself. I say to my friends now, that I feel that when I am ready to date again,, it's going to be like putting them through a job interview. I will have trouble trusting again,, and putting all of "me" out there, to not risk being hurt.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Come on now. I'll freely admit that's true of most cheaters, it's certainly stereotypical, but it's not true of all cheaters.


Yeah, the blanket statements and absolutes just aren't true.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Numb in Ohio said:


> This is what I worry about. I know I am not near ready to even think about dating again until I get through more IC for myself. I say to my friends now, that I feel that when I am ready to date again,, it's going to be like putting them through a job interview. I will have trouble trusting again,, and putting all of "me" out there, to not risk being hurt.


That's one reason I am, in some ways, a lot more comfortable with the husband who cheated than I think I would be with one who hadn't. Mine is remorseful, and I know he isn't going to cheat on me again, and he is willing to prove it. It would be an exceptional man who would be willing to submit to the level of scrutiny I demanded after D day to prove his worthiness for me to trust him.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

My cheater is worth it. We are well on the way to our marriage becoming really good again.
He can go where he wants, do want he wants, I can't control him. I don't want to. I'm leaving it up to him to make the right choices, and he is.
He knows though that I not give him another chance. If he mucks up, he's gone!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

The blanket statements are definitely biased and unfair, but we can only comment on our own experiences really.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

Only after he cheated on me did I learn he had cheated on his previous W.... and now I know that included other women and then me.

He knew I had been cheated on with previous relationships also.... yet he did it anyway.

This is why his cheating and abuse, is a deal breaker for me. I need to focus on only "me" for quite a while. I have to work on my issues as to why I attract "unsafe" people. ( For once in my life I'm going to be selfish).

He seems to think that after I fix me, that he has another shot. That's not the case. I know there are no guarantees of it not happening again, but I can't move forward to his total lack of respect for me and our marriage.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> I have been reviewing and reading all the information about no contact and 180 and such and I have come to the conclusion that if a spouse really needs to be watched over and no contact letters need to be sent and emails have to be watched - is it really worth being in a relationship with this person? It undermines the whole fabric of a relationship - trust! If you can't trust the one you are with and need to watch over them - how much are they worth to your relationship? Might as well let them go. It is like trying to keep a naughty child from misbehaving - you can't and it isn't worth it.


I agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

NO.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

We apply the law to each case, not the law rendering verdict base solely upon the crime. I am grateful that I was rendered a verdict, allowed to serve punishment and granted clemency. To which the guilty is forever in gratitude. So sure you can assume your answer, but each case has to be weighed on it's own merits.


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## So Sad Lady (Aug 31, 2012)

Numb in Ohio said:


> He seems to think that after I fix me, that he has another shot. That's not the case. I know there are no guarantees of it not happening again, but I can't move forward to his total lack of respect for me and our marriage.


Whoa! After you fix YOURSELF after his betrayal? Wow.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I am sorry if my contradictions are upsetting you, but I feel it's my duty to point out that reconciliation *can* be the better option for those with truly remorseful WS's.


They don't upset me, they actually amuse me. 

The only time a BS can say that a reconciliation was realistically and truly successful is after their spouse has died and moved on to the nether world and if the BS can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt no further cheating took place behind their back. 

If I have learned anything, from my experience, I have learned that affairs can be easily kept secret, and people can appear honest when they are not.

As I have mentioned, I only found out about my STBEHs affair because someone ratted him out.

I only found out about his continued misbehavior because someone ratted him out. 

I thought our reconciliation was real. But, I wouldn't try to ever convince anyone of that because the reality is that we can never be sure. 

Once a person reveals their deceptive side, I don't think it ever disappears. It's a character trait. 

I feel it is my duty to warn others of that factor. 

There is a saying: If someone shows you who they are......believe them. 

My STBEH showed me who he is, and I believe it.

So the good news is although we disagree, our intent is coming from a good place on both sides. 

Lastly, I agree 100 percent, contradictions are upsetting, aren't they?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

So Sad Lady said:


> Whoa! After you fix YOURSELF after his betrayal? Wow.


I think a lot of Cheaters blame the faithful spouse

I didn't choose to file because I don't believe our marriage can survive.

I filed because I can never trust my STBEH again, He proved I can't, and I refuse to choose to live with that doubt and mistrust going forward.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> I absolutely did not say that. I said r depends on a lot of things. In regards to the devil you know,
> 
> *I would go with the devil I don't know, all other things being equal. I say that because the devil I know has a proven track record of deceit, whereas the devil I don't does not. *


*

.[/QUOTE]

Amen *


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> This is what I am trying to understand. Sorry for being so difficult. I am not trying to be difficult. I am trying to think logically and explain what I am thinking.
> 
> If I am happy and content with my life on my own, I will not be happier with someone else. I will be as happy as I can be.
> 
> ...


That is a dilemma for a lot of betrayed spouses. Once we know that the spouse we loved and trusted has such a sneaky deceptive side, is it worth it to stay. 

I don't think so. 

For my part not only did I think our marriage was strong, and despite choosing to accept my spouse warts and all, he chose to cheat over relatively minor issues, that ALL COULD HAVE BEEN EASILY SOLVED WITH THE COUNSELING, I HAD REQUESTED AND HE REFUSED.

I also agree that most cheaters cheat because they are unhappy with themselves and they are often the type of person who is never happy and can't even choose to be happy.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Yeah, she never said she wanted me to change. That would have been fine. We could have had some good intimate discussions and maybe even learned new things about ourselves.


Same here. 

I heard no complaints from him, until after Dday.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

drerio said:


> We apply the law to each case, not the law rendering verdict base solely upon the crime. I am grateful that I was rendered a verdict, allowed to serve punishment and granted clemency. To which the guilty is forever in gratitude. So sure you can assume your answer, but each case has to be weighed on it's own merits.


The ultimate question is not can a cheater change and stop cheating. I think in a minority of cases a wayward can change. 

The real issue is the fact that the Betrayed spouse has to now live with a forever tainted marriage.

A marriage forever riddled with doubt, distrust, suspiscion.

I can't see a life, where I feel the need to constantly have my spouse check in and be transparent to trust him. 

I want someone whom I can trust without needing to keep them on a short leash.

Based on the posts I read on TAM there are people who would never cheat. 

And somes studies show that faithfulness or unfaithfulness is in the genes related to levels of bonding hormones. 

I am really into science, and I know a good study from a frivolous one and most of those studies are good studies, supported by excellent research and testing.


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## BookOfJob (Jul 6, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I also agree that most cheaters cheat because they are unhappy with themselves and they are often the type of person who is never happy and can't even choose to be happy.


Did you make a quick survey/observation, Sara? Because my wife fits into this pretty good. She was spoiled by her family and now wants nothing but the best, the "entitlement" problem.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> No doubt it forever changes the relationship. The statement "the marriage you had is over" couldn't be more true.
> 
> My wife would be fool to trust me blindly ever again, but I could have told her that before I cheated. But I don't trust anything or anyone blindly so she and I start from different positions. The ironic thing is that I don't trust myself as much any more, but maybe that's just good boundaries?


Reading this over again, I do believe there is too much assumption in life. We each have our own unique life experiences. How can we know what someone else thinks or feels?

I believe this may be a crucial part to why my ex cheated. She may have thought I knew she wasn't happy and did not care. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am not as experienced with life and relationships as her. 

She worked with the public every day. She had to learn how to know what they were telling her, even if they didn't say it in a clear concise manner. This was critical to the success of her career.

I knew this, but I could not get her to understand that I was not adept at this. She may have gotten tired of trying to send signals and not having them understood. 

Well, if you love me, talk to me. Love is a verb, not a noun. It has to be, since we can't read each other's minds.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> Come on now. I'll freely admit that's true of most cheaters, it's certainly stereotypical, but it's not true of all cheaters.


Exactly. I admit to my own actions. My husband wasn't at fault for it... but, like many (if not all) cheaters, I used his problems as excuses for my own behavior.



Hope1964 said:


> Yeah, the blanket statements and absolutes just aren't true.


100% :iagree:



Hope1964 said:


> Using words like 'always' are blanket statements and in this case what you said simply isn't true. For those in the infancy of reconciliation it can be disheartening to be told that no matter what they do they will fail.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To say otherwise dooms so many of us to failure. The failure of one person does not reflect the behavior and sincerity of all others.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

A lot of times, a "cheater" can be construed to be a good person who one would never, ever think would stray from the marital commitment that they had made with their spouse. Something takes over, perhaps from some form of a self-perceived deficiency in the relationship.

That deficiency inately causes some sort of a shutdown in the hormonal end of that relationship, to the point that the "cheating" spouse greatly wants to experience "that high" again, and then it is anyone's educated guess as to what avenue they choose to travel down in order to find it. It could be ex-flame or old acquaintances found on FB, co-workers who are spreading their pea**** feathers, neighborhood friends, social acquaintances or even total strangers met in some online chatroom.

Largely speaking, once they establish their meeting, they must then, with very rare exception, ascend to the EA status before dwelving into the PA. And since it's the "romantic" dopamine high that they're seeking, as long as they find someone who is primarily meeting their short-term emotional needs, and provided that things go well in that arena; and given that that feeling is being reciprocated on the cheating partners part; and greatly contingent that the affair partner has a natural sex drive that needs to be primed along with the necessary functioning equipment, then it is pretty easy for them to quickly escalate from Point A to Point B.

While physical attraction and/or beauty may be the desirable norm, it is not unusual that the high from the affair can be with someone who is far less attractive than the cheater. They have, in essence, shut down their emotional/physical relationship with their spouse, and by the perpetration of the affair, are in essence, covertly saying a final "goodbye" to their spouse.

I'm probably just a little bit jaded on this subject matter, but if I had to answer the original posted question in the thread as to "whether a cheater is worth it," then I would have to answer that with a resounding vociferous "No!"


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> The ultimate question is not can a cheater change and stop cheating. I think in a minority of cases a wayward can change.
> 
> The real issue is the fact that the Betrayed spouse has to now live with a forever tainted marriage...


I hear what you are saying... but in my world it is less about any future acts it is about the shame and dishonor of what I did...For me not just betraying my spouse, but for the betrayal to my in-laws who entrusted me with their daughter. I can assure you I play this scene in my head many times. It makes no difference the clemency I have been granted, it is my own burden:

For me the Scarlet Letter Cheater (first 3:17)


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

drerio said:


> I hear what you are saying... but in my world it is less about any future acts it is about the shame and dishonor of what I did...For me not just betraying my spouse, but for the betrayal to my in-laws who entrusted me with their daughter. I can assure you I play this scene in my head many times. It makes no difference the clemency I have been granted, it is my own burden:
> 
> For me the Scarlet Letter Cheater (first 3:17)


Drerio:

I truly believe that you are among the small percentage of way wards who will never cheat again. 

I truly see that you have learned a valuable lesson. 

best wishes, my friend.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Thanks Sara... Too depressed to read these threads right now. The guilt of my actions, is often too much to bear.


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