# A better way to be rejected for trying to initiate sex?



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Question for those here on TAM... we have all been there! Struggling to reconcile differences in libido, managing untimely hormonal urges, and being desperate to connect physically with a spouse only to be rejected when we try to initiate sexual intimacy. 

So for those with a high libido, what would be your ideal way to be rejected for sex? Imagine if you had a complete say so in the matter, but limit the nature of what you would need to only things of a nonsexual nature... what would be the best way for your partner to convey to you that they are not receptive at that moment, but still make you feel loved and appreciated? 

An example might be to engage in a soothing and calming activity like a back rub for each other. For others it might an honest conversation regarding when to try again.

So if you had a say so in the matter of being rejected, what would honestly help in this scenario? 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Sorry, absolutely nothing for me. Obviously, it would depend on the sexual relationship you have with your partner and the frequency of the rejections, but if I'm "desperate to connect physically with my spouse", there is no kind way to communicate this. A non sexual activity would be even worse. I used to leave the bedroom for a nice drive in the middle of the night - on my own.


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

True story - one time a buddy of mine's wife rejected his sexual advance with some lame excuse. He was like well ok. So he took his clothes off and sat down naked on the couch with a bottle of lube and masturbated to completion. His wife sat there and watched him do it. When he was done he got up, got dressed, gave his wife a peck on the cheek and went out to the garage to work on his bike. We were at his place some time after that and another buddy brought it up. I was like no way. His wife walked in smiling and said 'yep he sat right there and jerked off right in front of me'. In the end she thought it was pretty hot. So maybe give that a try.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Far too many spouses who are aversive to sex for one reason or another, unfortunately use the withholding of sexual relations with their spouse purely as a ***** of power!*


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

badsanta said:


> Question for those here on TAM... we have all been there! Struggling to reconcile differences in libido, managing untimely hormonal urges, and being desperate to connect physically with a spouse only to be rejected when we try to initiate sexual intimacy.
> 
> So for those with a high libido, what would be your ideal way to be rejected for sex? Imagine if you had a complete say so in the matter, but limit the nature of what you would need to only things of a nonsexual nature... what would be the best way for your partner to convey to you that they are *not receptive at that moment, *but still make you feel loved and appreciated?
> 
> ...


The bolded is central to the dilemma/non dilemma that makes this question of limited value, even assuming there is a good answer. 

If it truly is a case of not being receptive _at that moment_, then no real care be taken as the rejected partner knows this is temporary and will pass. Under those circumstances, it's pretty easy to simply move on to something else either with or without the partner. 

However, if there is a history of such rejection, frequent and without the rejecting partner truly getting over the temporary lack of receptiveness, there's nothing that partner can say or do to compensate.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"Honey, I love you, but I just can't have sex right now. I'd love to hold you though."

That would work for the occasional rejection. If rejection becomes a pattern, though, I'm with In Absentia.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> "Honey, I love you, but I just can't have sex right now. I'd love to hold you though."
> 
> That would work for the occasional rejection. If rejection becomes a pattern, though, I'm with In Absentia.


And once again, you've said in a sentence what took me a paragraph.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And once again, you've said in a sentence what took me a paragraph.


Ha! In real life I tend to do the opposite


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

If it was a recurrent issue, I'd just tell the wife to get out of my house and find another partner that she was more compatible with. I sure as heck wouldn't give her a reward (backrub??) or any additional attention for rejecting me!


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Bananapeel said:


> If it was a recurrent issue, I'd just tell the wife to get out of my house and find another partner that she was more compatible with. *I sure as heck wouldn't give her a reward *(backrub??) or any additional attention for rejecting me!


The bolded part makes sense IMO. When you make yourself vulnerable to someone (because sex is intimate, which means vulnerability) and they say NO, then turning around and offering MORE vulnerability is....well, I couldn't do it.

When my dog cries at night because she wants to play, I don't give her a treat lol

NO, I am not comparing spouses to dogs. It was a joke.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Email...preferably before 5pm to give me time to arrange something more fun than sharing a bed with a lost cause.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If there is an actual reason for the rejection, then knowing that reason is best. 

If it is just another in a continuing series of objections for no reason, then "I don't feel like it" is as good as anything. It doesn't really matter though - I, and I think most frequently rejected people learn to ignore whatever words are accompanying the rejection, since they don't mean anything.

I think its important to separate occasional rejection with reasonable cause, from continuous rejection just because someone doesn't enjoy sex.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

peacem said:


> Email...preferably before 5pm to give me time to arrange something more fun than sharing a bed with a lost cause.


Love this... :laugh:


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Again, the occasional rejection is not a problem. In this case, if the wife said "but we will have wild sex tomorrow", then I would be on cloud 9... :grin2:


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> "Honey, I love you, but I just can't have sex right now. I'd love to hold you though."
> 
> That would work for the occasional rejection. If rejection becomes a pattern, though, I'm with In Absentia.


But if W was holding me, we'd be close enough for sex, sans clothes 😍😍.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Again, the occasional rejection is not a problem. In this case, if the wife said "but we will have wild sex tomorrow", then I would be on cloud 9... :grin2:


But I may not want to have sex when tomorrow comes at a time of her choosing. 

😎 it could happen.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

badsanta said:


> Question for those here on TAM... we have all been there! Struggling to reconcile differences in libido, managing untimely hormonal urges, and being desperate to connect physically with a spouse only to be rejected when we try to initiate sexual intimacy.
> 
> So for those with a high libido, what would be your ideal way to be rejected for sex? Imagine if you had a complete say so in the matter, but limit the nature of what you would need to only things of a nonsexual nature... what would be the best way for your partner to convey to you that they are not receptive at that moment, but still make you feel loved and appreciated?
> 
> ...


Of course I will get blasted, but I once again do not understand the question. 

If one of you is sick, OK, it happens. If one of you is really too tired and you don't feel like it that night, you just have sex in the morning. 

Other than that, and like POI said, as long as it is not a pattern, I don't understand. 

I felt guilty the other night. GF's back was hurting, and she was tired, but I could tell the wanted me to make love to her, even though I don't think really wanted to. I was beat myself and we were just cuddling and holding each other. 

Now, if she would have said, let's get down, I would have. But we just fell asleep, holding each other. 

I took care of business in the morning and she was happy...


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

If I was turned down for sex I would need an IOU.
This would consist of a toasted bacon sandwich,served at five am and a bj while I was eating said sandwich with no reciprocating expected.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I usually get a request to defer til tomorrow and a very nice backscratch.

Tomorrow used to be an absolute. Now - we are both pretty easy going about it. 

Main thing, the person doing the deferral asks the other one if it’s ok. 




badsanta said:


> Question for those here on TAM... we have all been there! Struggling to reconcile differences in libido, managing untimely hormonal urges, and being desperate to connect physically with a spouse only to be rejected when we try to initiate sexual intimacy.
> 
> So for those with a high libido, what would be your ideal way to be rejected for sex? Imagine if you had a complete say so in the matter, but limit the nature of what you would need to only things of a nonsexual nature... what would be the best way for your partner to convey to you that they are not receptive at that moment, but still make you feel loved and appreciated?
> 
> ...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

This question is reminding me of an episode of the old TV sitcom "Happy Days" when Fonze found out Ritchie made out with his GF. 

Fonze asked Ritchie if he'd rather he punched him in the face which would cause a black eye and swollen nose or whether he'd rather get punched in the gut which wouldn't leave a mark but would knock the wind out if him and hurt real bad for a long time. 

Neither is ok for the recipient.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> If I was turned down for sex I would need an IOU.
> This would consist of a toasted bacon sandwich,served at five am and a bj while I was eating said sandwich with no reciprocating expected.


... with fresh avocado
... and chipotle mayo
... on the sandwich that is.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> I usually get a request to defer til tomorrow and *a very nice backscratch.*
> 
> Tomorrow used to be an absolute. Now - we are both pretty easy going about it.
> 
> *Main thing, the person doing the deferral asks the other one if it’s ok.*


 @MEM2020 such a great answer! Not only is intimacy rejected with engaging in an activity to sooth each other, but main thing is that it is done so demonstrating respect for the relationship! 

Historically my wife and I had issues managing our mismatched libidos. We have since resolved most of our arguments and frustrations. Compromise is never easy but we now acknowledge and respect each others efforts now to help make things work. 

Reoccurring rejection in a marriage with mismatched libidos creates a vicious cycle of emotions for both involved that can be damn near impossible to break. In my opinion, sometimes a couple just needs to learn how to first deal with repeated rejection in a respectful and loving way to break out of that cycle!

For those that have managed to pull out of it and repair their marriage, it is so easy to slip back into old ways of frustration when life gets busy. So knowing the tools to dig yourself back out can perhaps save a relationship. An analogy might be someone in a survival situation enduring really rough weather, it will really help to know and gain experience the various ways restart and keep a fire going without matches! 

Badsanta


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

As long as W says honey, you're the only one for me, and I'm hot for you but I'm sick, I could live with that.

But she knows for some reason, if I'm sick, typically I'm more in the mood. 

Just kidding for the most part. If an ltr or M, there are ways that are ok. Cause it's gonna happen statistically. 

It's only a problem as mentioned plenty in above posts when repetitive rejection. Then there's a deeper issue afoot. 

Things are rarely just and only about sex itself.

Hey, the W called, she got the flowers I sent her today. She's getting take out for our supper.

Guess who's getting lucky this evening 😍😍😍


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Well if I was thinking of this in terms of an ideal partner who actually honored / offered rain checks well that would be ok. 
In the real world, no there is no rejection I would prefer that doesn't involve something sexual. And I have got rejections with something sexual.

Silly condition


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> So for those with a high libido, what would be your ideal way to be rejected for sex?



The only acceptable (and favourite) way for me to get rejected for sex is with my **** in her mouth.
Too crude? Sorry, but true. There is no problem in the world that a skilled BJ could not solve.
That’s just...science.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Hey, the W called, she got the flowers I sent her today. She's getting take out for our supper.
> 
> 
> 
> Guess who's getting lucky this evening



The flower delivery guy? Or was that a trick question. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Santa,
What I love about you is that you are smart, sincere, transparent and fully retain your sense of humor, even under duress. 

That is a very appealing package. 

I often talk about M2’s sense of humor, which she uses to great effect in all aspects of our marriage. 

One way she does that regarding our sex life is she will grossly overstate the duration between our sexual encounters. Example:
M2: Babe, I know we haven’t connected in *months*, but is there any chance you’d take a rain check for tomorrow?
MEM: (sounding confused) Months? Hon we did it this morning, guess it twasn’t a very memorable 60 seconds for ya.

In fact it’s typically been a week plus or minus a couple days, when this exchange occurs. So sure she’s exaggerating by 10 fold. But the subtext is: it probably FEELS like months to you, the HD partner. As for me, the subtext is the same in reverse. 

Top of all this, the recognition that in terms of chassis, we are very fortunate. In terms of physical appearance we do it for each other. In terms of the mechanics of sex, I’m competent and she is exceptional. In terms of the spirit of experience....we have some mismatches. She’s more spontaneous, I prefer to be scheduled. Or at least have a few hours notice. She’d like me to have more edge. 

The fact that our non sexual touch is so pervasive, playful and positive bridges the gaps in spontaneity and edge. 

And then the ‘no lying’ helps too. There’s no need to synthesize an ego soothing reason for declining sex. Can we connect tomorrow literally means: I don’t want to tonight - full stop

If you have a headache, or tummy ache, or fatigue, I want to know because part of my job is taking care of you. But there’s never an attempt to understand the reason for WHY M2 isn’t inclined on a particular night. If she wants to volunteer a reason, fine, but it’s not expected. And it is never requested. 

In summary
1. Acceptance of our stylistic differences 
2. Empathy driven humor
3. Transparency is rewarded
4. Soothing if done at all, is via non sexual touch
5. Ego soothing via well intentioned deception (I have a headache - when you don’t) is prohibited





badsanta said:


> @MEM2020 such a great answer! Not only is intimacy rejected with engaging in an activity to sooth each other, but main thing is that it is done so demonstrating respect for the relationship!
> 
> Historically my wife and I had issues managing our mismatched libidos. We have since resolved most of our arguments and frustrations. Compromise is never easy but we now acknowledge and respect each others efforts now to help make things work.
> 
> ...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I don't see how if my husband initiates sex and I don't want to have sex is interpreted as a rejection of him. I see it as me stating my preference.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I don't see how if my husband initiates sex and I don't want to have sex is interpreted as a rejection of him. I see it as me stating my preference.


On another thread you wrote that when you realized that men would see you as a sexual being simply because you existed,you were so put off that you started refusing sex with your husband even when you really desired it.
Something tells me that your husband is no stranger to rejection in the bedroom.
Or have I incorrectly interpreted your post?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I don't see how if my husband initiates sex and I don't want to have sex is interpreted as a rejection of him. I see it as me stating my preference.


As long as it is not a common pattern, it should not be a problem. Maybe it is. If your drives are fairly evenly matched and everyone's needs are being met it should not be an issue. 

If it happens a lot, in my world, it is a problem. 

And I don't even get the thing about asking for sex. For me, it just happens, I guess it is assumed. When people are in love, on a regular day, in my world, you have sex. 

I could be weird though...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> On another thread you wrote that when you realized that men would see you as a sexual being simply because you existed,you were so put off that you started refusing sex with your husband even when you really desired it.
> Something tells me that your husband is no stranger to rejection in the bedroom.
> Or have I incorrectly interpreted your post?


Your psychological profiling of my marriage is off-base completely and deeply unappreciated.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Andy1001 said:
> 
> 
> > On another thread you wrote that when you realized that men would see you as a sexual being simply because you existed,you were so put off that you started refusing sex with your husband even when you really desired it.
> ...


I quoted exactly what you wrote on a thread that you started. 
So instead of telling me I’m wrong tell me what it is I’m wrong about.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> As long as it is not a common pattern, it should not be a problem. Maybe it is. If your drives are fairly evenly matched and everyone's needs are being met it should not be an issue.
> 
> If it happens a lot, in my world, it is a problem.
> 
> ...


Women not enjoying sex with their partners is a universal, worldwide issue, if I am to believe the larger volume of voices from women worldwide.

With a disproportionately small number of exceptions, men do not want to go to the effort to understand the level of foreplay that creates a desire in a woman. They just expect that desire to be there in the same way it is for them - nearly instant and often.

There is a way to bridge this gap and I think that conversations really increase the success rate within a couple. I feel men, overall, don't want to go to the effort to build desire in their partner - and prefer women who have a built in desire instead.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> I quoted exactly what you wrote on a thread that you started.
> So instead of telling me I’m wrong tell me what it is I’m wrong about.


It would help if you pointed to the thread instead of paraphrasing me out of context. I have a complex sexual history so I don't know how to expand on something you've taken out of context. 

Please don't say mean things about my relationship with my husband. I'm a real person and you are making a mean assumption by implying that I am rejecting my husband sexually on a regular basis. This kind of responding to people on TAM is why posters quit their memberships and leave the forums.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Andy1001 said:
> 
> 
> > I quoted exactly what you wrote on a thread that you started.
> ...


You have a sum total of two threads on tam. I quoted directly from one of them. 
You said in that thread that you rejected your husband because other men seen you as a sexual being. 
In this thread you seem to be saying it’s your decision whether you have sex or not and your husbands opinion is meaningless. 
That’s fine. Like I said he’s probably used to being rejected. 
If I have misquoted you anywhere I will of course apologize. 
IF.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

happiness27 said:


> I feel men, overall, don't want to go to the effort to build desire in their partner - and prefer women who have a built in desire instead.


Sure, not much beats the sheer eroticism of a woman who just wants you. In the same manner that from some women's perspective, not much beats the eroticism of a man desiring them so much he bends them over something and takes them.

But I think most men are willing to work with a woman's responsive desire. We'd hardly choose going without over seducing her into it slowly.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Women not enjoying sex with their partners is a universal, worldwide issue, if I am to believe the larger volume of voices from women worldwide.
> 
> With a disproportionately small number of exceptions, men do not want to go to the effort to understand the level of foreplay that creates a desire in a woman. They just expect that desire to be there in the same way it is for them - nearly instant and often.
> 
> There is a way to bridge this gap and I think that conversations really increase the success rate within a couple. I feel men, overall, don't want to go to the effort to build desire in their partner - and prefer women who have a built in desire instead.


I don't disagree, to an extent. If most men do not understand and I don't doubt your perspective, I really don't get it. 

Now, when I am in a relationship, the flirting, meeting emotional need, doing special things, is just standard fare for me. Like I said, maybe I am weird. And I don't do those things because I want to get laid, I know I am going to get laid, I do it because that is what you do when you are in love with a woman. 

Latest example, GF teaches special need children, various levels of handicaps and types. This year is really tough because she has several students that are really below the level of her class, but she hangs in their with them, she is determined that she be able to teach the at least some of the basics.

So it is a really tough year and Friday was worse than usual. She talked to me on the way to her house. So I told her that we should stay in and have a bed picnic and whatever on TV. 

So I picked up some nice wine, various cheeses and meats, an other special treats. Of course a bouquet of flowers, you know, the usual. 

I get there, she loves the flowers, I open the wine, and start getting the picnic ready. She is in heaven and super happy. And still was talking about it this morning. 

To me, I always do this stuff, I don't think of it as really big deal, but she does. I just want to make her happy. 

Oddly enough, she wanted to have sex before dinner, which I found odd, but it was fine. Great actually. 

I generally think you should eat and cuddle before sex but whichever. 

But yes, I am guilty of expecting desire and sex, never really thought about it...


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

BluesPower said:


> I don't disagree, to an extent. If most men do not understand and I don't doubt your perspective, I really don't get it.
> 
> Now, when I am in a relationship, the flirting, meeting emotional need, doing special things, is just standard fare for me. Like I said, maybe I am weird. And I don't do those things because I want to get laid, I know I am going to get laid, I do it because that is what you do when you are in love with a woman.
> 
> ...


+1

Spoiling a woman is just what I do, I want her to be happy. *But*, I expect to be treated the same way in return. Which does include sex.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

BioFury said:


> Spoiling a woman is just what I do, I want her to be happy. *But*, I expect to be treated the same way in return. Which does include sex.


Agreed, why would you not spoil them? 

Now for me, sex is part of the deal, and more than that. They need to want to have sex, anything else is unacceptable. (DESIRE)

So I do assume that we are having sex daily, unless someone is sick.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> BioFury said:
> 
> 
> > Spoiling a woman is just what I do, I want her to be happy. *But*, I expect to be treated the same way in return. Which does include sex.
> ...


It would be helpful to know peoples basic profiles. Assuming you are fairly young (under 50/60).


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > Andy1001 said:
> ...


No longer responding to you.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Andy1001 said:
> 
> 
> > happiness27 said:
> ...


So what’s this?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BioFury said:


> +1
> 
> Spoiling a woman is just what I do, I want her to be happy. *But*, I expect to be treated the same way in return. Which does include sex.


That's conditional, then. You do something for her with expectations. Nothing wrong with that as long as the expectations are clear up front, which it sounds like you are pretty vocal and clear about your expectations. But, again, what you are doing is conditional upon returned expectations.

I would rather my guy made his expectations clear up front like that than silently assuming, then being disappointed.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Happiness,

I only have three comments, and I’m not speaking as a mod, just a fellow citizen:
1. I just read your thread on religious impact, I liked it
2. I agree that Andy misquoted you, what you actually said is quite different than what he wrote, and his misquote was unflattering. Your original statement made sense to me.
3. Your view below regarding sex, is framed as: sex is bad for women because most men are too lazy to figure it out (if you wish to debate what disproportionately small means, feel free but trying to argue that it isn’t a minority will be an uphill battle)

A lot of married people find themselves in a sexual maze. And that is not a gender specific outcome. A lot of women find their husbands quickly lose interest in sex. I think you will get an interesting reaction if you make the sort of comment you made about men, at women who are married to men who won’t have sex with them. 

As to humans preferring spontaneous desire to responsive desire - that is universal. If I said ‘I feel that ... fill in human sub group here ... are lazy’ I’d expect to get a reaction. 

Watch a *hypothetical* example: I feel that women don't want to go to the effort to develop a career and instead desire a partner who makes a lot of money.





happiness27 said:


> Women not enjoying sex with their partners is a universal, worldwide issue, if I am to believe the larger volume of voices from women worldwide.
> 
> With a disproportionately small number of exceptions, men do not want to go to the effort to understand the level of foreplay that creates a desire in a woman. They just expect that desire to be there in the same way it is for them - nearly instant and often.
> 
> There is a way to bridge this gap and I think that conversations really increase the success rate within a couple. I feel men, overall, don't want to go to the effort to build desire in their partner - and prefer women who have a built in desire instead.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> I don't disagree, to an extent. If most men do not understand and I don't doubt your perspective, I really don't get it.
> 
> Now, when I am in a relationship, the flirting, meeting emotional need, doing special things, is just standard fare for me. Like I said, maybe I am weird. And I don't do those things because I want to get laid, I know I am going to get laid, I do it because that is what you do when you are in love with a woman.
> 
> ...


It's fine to have expectations as long as those are clearly defined and discussed. 

But any person should feel like they are having sex because they want to and not because they feel like they have to in order to continue the relationship. 

In your scenario, you are talking about a girlfriend, not a person you've been married to for a long time. I think when my husband and I were first together, we had a lot of fun back then. But then, life hit us hard over the years and we didn't always have the luxury of putting sex at the forefront.

For me and my husband over the years, we've lost all four parents, an adult child and have been through all kinds of ups and downs that life throws at you on top of these life-altering events, including working in different countries from each other. Through the years, these things have effected our sex life together - and I'm just glad that our relationship wasn't built on an expectation that our sex life had to be hot and ready all the time or one of us would leave and find someone else who WOULD be hot and ready all the time. Our relationship was built on much more than that.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Happiness,
> 
> I only have three comments, and I’m not speaking as a mod, just a fellow citizen:
> 1. I just read your thread on religious impact, I liked it
> ...


Thanks for helping out on the misquote - I didn't want to pursue the conversation with that poster.

I have been watching Christine Amapour's shows on Sex and Love in the world and I was surprised at how universal it is that women overwhelmingly say that men do not take the trouble to understand how women work sexually. I thought I was a bit alone in that thinking until I saw so many women saying the same thing.

It would not be out of line for a human being to think a certain way and consider his own way of existing the way that other people also exist. Where I'm trying to take the conversation is for men who complain about not getting sex on demand to consider the other person instead of just himself and his own desires. This is where women finally get fed up. 

I do think there are some guys out there who work at being compatible with women's need for more foreplay as opposed to a man's near-instant ability to perform. Personally, I'm jealous that you guys can just turn on and off like a light switch. I physically and mentally don't have that ability. I've tried everything medically I can think of to change that but I can't. Apparently, other women can't either - as has been widely written about extensively by medical books and even ancient how-to books about women's sexuality (ancient erotica). 

This really does need to be a conversation and not a defensive debate. Men who listen will benefit, if I can borrow a concept from HOTYN.U.T.S. Women do want to have sex with their partners - they just don't want to feel like crap about it. 

Would you guys be likely to pursue sex often if you knew you were probably only going to orgasm 1/3 of the time?


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

happiness27 said:


> That's conditional, then. You do something for her with expectations. Nothing wrong with that as long as the expectations are clear up front, which it sounds like you are pretty vocal and clear about your expectations. But, again, what you are doing is conditional upon returned expectations.
> 
> I would rather my guy made his expectations clear up front like that than silently assuming, then being disappointed.


I spoil her because I love her, and want her to be happy. Not so that she'll have sex with me. If she does not spoil me in turn, then she doesn't love me, she's using me.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> It would be helpful to know peoples basic profiles. Assuming you are fairly young (under 50/60).


I don't know if you were talking to bio or me. 

I'm 54...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> I don't know if you were talking to bio or me.
> 
> I'm 54...


If your partner is of similar age, menopause really messes with a woman. Although she has some options to work on that, a lot is out of her control - dry vagina, lowered hormone levels that effect desire and libido...extremely frustrating.

It's terrifying to reach this age and feel like your partner is going to leave you if you don't sexually perform at the same level you did when you were younger. Very anxiety-producing.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You can generally tell if someone really loves you. Also - a decent partner doesn’t take the whole aging thing personally.




happiness27 said:


> If your partner is of similar age, menopause really messes with a woman. Although she has some options to work on that, a lot is out of her control - dry vagina, lowered hormone levels that effect desire and libido...extremely frustrating.
> 
> It's terrifying to reach this age and feel like your partner is going to leave you if you don't sexually perform at the same level you did when you were younger. Very anxiety-producing.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BioFury said:


> I spoil her because I love her, and want her to be happy. Not so that she'll have sex with me. If she does not spoil me in turn, then she doesn't love me, she's using me.


That's a perception you have of how love needs to work for you. There's a lot of different kinds of relationships and relationship expectations out there in the world, though. Yours is yours. Other people operate differently and are still in love with each other.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> It's fine to have expectations as long as those are clearly defined and discussed.
> 
> But any person should feel like they are having sex because they want to and not because they feel like they have to in order to continue the relationship.
> 
> ...


I was married for 26 years, never had any sexless times though 3 kids and everything else. 

I don't deal with women that do not enjoy sex. Never have. 

And yes, affection, sex, and everything else is my expectation of a relationship. Always has been, always will be. 

I bring a LOT to the table in a relationship, the things that I do for a women I have always done. 

But I don't just expect sex, I assume/expect desire, and I have never had an issue with that aspect. 

I am not one of these men that deal with sex issues. Never have been, and don't expect to be. 

Yes relationships are built on more, I get that, I'm not a kid. But in my life, they are also built on a mutual desire to have sex together and good sex at that. Otherwise, there is not relationship.

So I don't know where that puts me in your nomenclature, but there you have it...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> I was married for 26 years, never had any sexless times though 3 kids and everything else.
> 
> I don't deal with women that do not enjoy sex. Never have.
> 
> ...


Well, when my daughter died, I didn't feel like having sex for awhile and sporadically for a time period after that and through various events, sex has been on and off for me. Thankfully, I'm married to a man who didn't expect me to have sex every day with him no matter what.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

My real intent in posting on this thread was to challenge the concept of "rejection" - to me, if I don't want to have sex and my husband does, I am not rejecting him. I just don't want to have sex. To frame a woman not wanting to have sex as a rejection puts the responsibility of the sex act always on HER. SHE is in control. SHE is to blame. 

This puts a man in the position of relinquishing control - when, what I am saying is that he can take back more control if he is willing to understand a woman's sexuality and desire better. I'm not alone in this, as I now realize - but I am probably one of the few on here, at least, who is willing to speak up and try and make a conversation out of it that doesn't include men responding defensively. 

We can't have a conversation when the guy defends himself. We can only have a conversation if a guy starts listening with the intent of seeking understanding.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> I don't disagree, to an extent. If most men do not understand and I don't doubt your perspective, I really don't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I would get stressed out about getting wine stains onto the bed as well as making it oily from all the meat 🥩 
There’s mostly one type of meat I bring to the bed...
On another note: yes you are weird. Because you keep talking about how much great sex you are having  As if other people are not: ok some don’t, so much, or at all, and of course they will complain about it disproportionally more than people who do have frequent sex. It doesn’t mean that those are the majority just because their voices are louder. It’s like going to Africa and telling starving kids how much food you have back at home. It doesn’t help them. Teach them how to grow their own ****ing food instead 


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## inging (Dec 11, 2016)

A man does not marry a woman because she is just his best friend. He marries her because he is crazy about her. Everything about her. He wants to have sex with her. A lot. When you married him. Did you find him crazy attractive, did you have sex more than you would like to admit?

As time goes on kids come along (from hot sex normally) and life gets to be harder for both partners. Those moments of intimacy become harder to see, the heat has gone . You know each other so well that there are no surprises. 

Funny thing is though .He still wants to have sex with you just like he did. He loves you, you see. He loves being close and there is absolutely nothing closer than sex with you. 

Then you say "I don't feel like it". 
What the hell does that mean? Does he have to wait until the moon crosses Scorpio in the third month or will him putting the garbage out be sexy? How does he know? These sexual weasel words are poison to a relationship

And now the relationship is all about sex because the person who says " I don't feel like it" has made it all about sex.
He will continue to try and find a way to make it so that you do feel like it. He will bend over backwards to do that. Cos , you know, he loves you and really want you to "feel like it" 
If he is doing it wrong. Show him
If you want him to do something . Tell him
If you want a romantic weekends away. Talk about it.

If any of this sounds awful, repulsive then maybe you are just no longer into him?

I understand that women lose attraction for long term mates, normally long term resentments eating away at the admiration and love you once had. No longer wanting that closeness and intimacy with him. No longer respecting him for all the stupid **** he has done. 


If you really don't feel like it. Let him go . You can "not feel like" it all you want. 

There are plenty of women who will want to have sex with him. You can not feel like it and nobody will mind! 

He can go ( eventually) have hot monkey sex with a woman that does want him. Maybe even a new relationship with her.

Are you just not into him anymore?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Would you guys be likely to pursue sex often if you knew you were probably only going to orgasm 1/3 of the time?



Yes



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> There is a way to bridge this gap and I think that conversations really increase the success rate within a couple. I feel men, overall, don't want to go to the effort to build desire in their partner - and prefer women who have a built in desire instead.



It depends how much responsibility you are placing on a man to make you feel a certain way.
I partly understand what you mean and agree (that men should understand that a woman’s drive works differently and act accordingly). However, if a woman is just not feeling it, then I’m not sure blaming men is all that useful. Plus it seems to be implying that the reason women don’t like to sleep with their husbands that much is because husbands are a bit sh1t in bed (sorry for paraphrasing). Maybe sometime it’s true but it’s a very narrow perspective.
Some women just may not feel it, and it has nothing to do with foreplay.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

One of the most common themes on this site is the claim by the refused H that:
- his wife has an O every time they have sex
- whole experience is great for her, 
- sadly she only wants to do it once every 6 to 8 weeks

My personal experience, I get there 99.5% of the time. M2 gets there 50-60 percent of the time. That’s not an effort thing on my side. At least I don’t think it is. The nights she can’t get there, she says: all about you tonight 

It’s been like that from the start. The first time we were together that she didn’t get there - she just said - sometimes I can and sometimes I can’t. I told her I didn’t want to have pretend sex. So we don’t.






happiness27 said:


> Thanks for helping out on the misquote - I didn't want to pursue the conversation with that poster.
> 
> I have been watching Christine Amapour's shows on Sex and Love in the world and I was surprised at how universal it is that women overwhelmingly say that men do not take the trouble to understand how women work sexually. I thought I was a bit alone in that thinking until I saw so many women saying the same thing.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That’s very sad. How old was your daughter?




happiness27 said:


> Well, when my daughter died, I didn't feel like having sex for awhile and sporadically for a time period after that and through various events, sex has been on and off for me. Thankfully, I'm married to a man who didn't expect me to have sex every day with him no matter what.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Some women seem to enjoy the feelings caused by PIV even if no orgasm is achieved - so I am not sure I would call it ‘pretend sex’ necessarily. Not that many women orgasm from PIV.
My wife orgasms 99% of the time (whether PIV or other). I don’t take any credit for it: people have different bodies, there’s not much you can do about it.
There was a brief period (after last pregnancy I think) where she lost some sensations and couldn’t orgasm as easily from oral.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> My real intent in posting on this thread was to challenge the concept of "rejection" - to me, if I don't want to have sex and my husband does, I am not rejecting him. I just don't want to have sex. To frame a woman not wanting to have sex as a rejection puts the responsibility of the sex act always on HER. SHE is in control. SHE is to blame.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I am all for listening. But there is no uniform rule you can apply across the board unfortunately. What do you say to husbands for example, whose wives want their husbands to just use them for their pleasure, with no regard to foreplay or whether the wives have been satisfied or not? And they get too self conscious or bored if you spend too much time/energy trying to ‘get them going’ or please them? Instead, they just really want to get used and laid by a dominant male.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

One reason pacing is such a point of contention is that a woman may transit from spontaneous to responsive desire in her thirties. Her H may not get there til he’s 60. 

So - he starts out with a partner who is about as sexual as he is. And then they either cross the chasm or they don’t. 

From the get go, M2 said what was what. So when all this happened, it was just more of the same thing. She'd say stuff I never would have figured out on my own. And I’d say, thank you for telling me that. And I meant it. The pacing thing was huge. 

That said, M2 accepted that our marriage was uneven in and out the bedroom and we were both ok with that. 

I really wouldn’t have accepted a zero sum game marriage.





happiness27 said:


> Thanks for helping out on the misquote - I didn't want to pursue the conversation with that poster.
> 
> I have been watching Christine Amapour's shows on Sex and Love in the world and I was surprised at how universal it is that women overwhelmingly say that men do not take the trouble to understand how women work sexually. I thought I was a bit alone in that thinking until I saw so many women saying the same thing.
> 
> ...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> My real intent in posting on this thread was to challenge the concept of "rejection" - to me, if I don't want to have sex and my husband does, I am not rejecting him. I just don't want to have sex. To frame a woman not wanting to have sex as a rejection puts the responsibility of the sex act always on HER. SHE is in control. SHE is to blame.
> 
> This puts a man in the position of relinquishing control - when, what I am saying is that he can take back more control if he is willing to understand a woman's sexuality and desire better. I'm not alone in this, as I now realize - but I am probably one of the few on here, at least, who is willing to speak up and try and make a conversation out of it that doesn't include men responding defensively.
> 
> We can't have a conversation when the guy defends himself. We can only have a conversation if a guy starts listening with the intent of seeking understanding.


While I have never lost a child, like you and your Husband have, I have been through a lot in my life. Though nothing that bad, bad but nothing like that...

I do want to say that I cannot imagine what you guys went through, and god bless you. 

I do disagree with this post however. Rejection is not just male of female, even though this thread is kind of going that way. 

For me, romantic relationships include sex and the desire to have sex. There is nothing that makes it all the woman's fault or the man's fault. 

All I am saying is that if a woman is with me, then she wants to have sex with me, or she is not with me. 

There may be woman that feel the same way. My GF's sex drive is pretty much starting to get through the roof, even at her age and post menopause. 

For her, she had some sexless, low/sex marriages and she was never able to get to the place she is with me. Some of that is good sex begets more sex. Some of it is probably because our love is out of this world. 

But to your this post. I see sex as a mutual thing in a relationship... But when one partner does not want to have sex, and they are not sick, or actually too tired, yes that is a rejection.

I really don't see how you could say otherwise. It is not the end of the world if it is every so often, but when it happen more than occasionally I believe it is a problem, one that I personally will not deal with...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> On another note: yes you are weird. Because you keep talking about how much great sex you are having  As if other people are not: ok some don’t, so much, or at all, and of course they will complain about it disproportionally more than people who do have frequent sex. It doesn’t mean that those are the majority just because their voices are louder. It’s like going to Africa and telling starving kids how much food you have back at home. It doesn’t help them. Teach them how to grow their own ****ing food instead


I talk about that in the context of thread like this and others where men, mostly, are trying to understand rejection, sexlessness, low sex, for the most part. 

I actually did not really know that this type of stuff happened to so many people. I new some woman had husbands that did not have sex with their wives, which I got to be on the receiving end of. 

I find all of the no sex stuff fascinating and disgusting at the same time. I never will never understand how people could live like this. But is seems to be common. 

If that pisses people off, tough toenails. 

If I am weird, then I like being weird. But then, you understand the irony of YOU of all people pointing out that you agree with my being weird... I mean you get that right????


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

I no longer put myself in the position to be rejected. I was pretty miserable through 2014 and 2015. In the last year, or so, my sex drive has dropped substantially. Probably from getting older, and the natural atrophy from being rejected and not having sex.

We have had sex 3 times this year. The last time was either the end of June or the beginning of July.

So, I've pretty much accepted that it's over. Sex was never all that great. So I'm lucky that I'm not missing "mind blowing sex"---not even sure what that means.

Anywayz, no more begging or pleading for me. At least I've got my self-respect back a little bit in that way.









badsanta said:


> Question for those here on TAM... we have all been there! Struggling to reconcile differences in libido, managing untimely hormonal urges, *and being desperate to connect physically with a spouse only to be rejected when we try to initiate sexual intimacy. *
> 
> So for those with a high libido, what would be your ideal way to be rejected for sex? Imagine if you had a complete say so in the matter, but limit the nature of what you would need to only things of a nonsexual nature... what would be the best way for your partner to convey to you that they are not receptive at that moment, but still make you feel loved and appreciated?
> 
> ...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I no longer put myself in the position to be rejected. I was pretty miserable through 2014 and 2015. In the last year, or so, my sex drive has dropped substantially. Probably from getting older, and the natural atrophy from being rejected and not having sex.
> 
> We have had sex 3 times this year. The last time was either the end of June or the beginning of July.
> 
> ...




Yes, I get it, but how old are you?


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## FalCod (Dec 6, 2017)

The best way to reject someone is with a counter-offer. The offer depends on the reason for the rejection.

If you are too tired, you suggest a time in the near future when you won't be tired and you make it a priority to ready then. The same would be true if you just aren't in the mood.

If you are situationally limited, like having an injury or being on your period or something, you offer whatever sexual behavior you can. That might just include being there and being supportive while your partner takes care of their own physical needs.

If you are rejecting someone not because the timing is bad (tired, not feeling up to it) or you can't for physical reasons, you owe it to be honest with them about your feelings. Sometimes in relationships someone loses their attraction to the other person. That's a bad situation, but I think you need to be open and honest and try to work through it together.

Of course the other issue is frequency mismatch. Some people like a lot of sex and some don't. If your schedules are too far apart, this can be catastrophic. I think weekly is probably a reasonable compromise. If you aren't willing to be enthusiastic about sex with someone you love at least once a week, I argue that you don't really love them. If you need it more than once a week, figure out mutually agreeable ways for you to meet your needs without being a burden.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Yes, I get it, but how old are you?


 Mid 50's


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Mid 50's


Like me... so, you are giving up on sex completely? For the rest of your life? My wife did that to me: no more sex. Hell, I said I would get it somewhere else.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Like me... so, you are giving up on sex completely? For the rest of your life? My wife did that to me: no more sex. Hell, I said I would get it somewhere else.


 Yes, I have given up. And if my husband suddenly approached me for sex, I'm not sure I would get aroused or excited anymore. You can't stay responsive when your spouse hasn't been interested in you for years.

No, I'm not interested in looking anywhere else. The whole idea of that is unthinkable.

So my lifetime conclusion about sex is: it's extremely overrated---yes, I know, probably because I'm not good at it---and it is, after all, just a way to make more human beings.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> I talk about that in the context of thread like this and others where men, mostly, are trying to understand rejection, sexlessness, low sex, for the most part.
> 
> I actually did not really know that this type of stuff happened to so many people. I new some woman had husbands that did not have sex with their wives, which I got to be on the receiving end of.
> 
> ...


When I first started reading on tam the most puzzling thing I read was about people living in sexless marriages.I read all these stories about men doing this,that and the other to try and get their wives in the mood for sex.These men don’t seem to realize that all their bow kowtowing to their wives made them look weak and undesirable which made the likelihood of sex even less.
Like you,I have no problem spoiling my girlfriend on occasion, but it isn’t to have sex.If she doesn’t want to have sex with me that’s fine but I wouldn’t be hanging around for long in these circumstances.
Why on earth waste your life with someone who doesn’t desire you.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Yes, I have given up. And if my husband suddenly approached me for sex, I'm not sure I would get aroused or excited anymore. You can't stay responsive when your spouse hasn't been interested in you for years.
> 
> No, I'm not interested in looking anywhere else. The whole idea of that is unthinkable.
> 
> So my lifetime conclusion about sex is: it's extremely overrated---yes, I know, probably because I'm not good at it---and it is, after all, just a way to make more human beings.



mmm... maybe you and your husband weren't particularly suited. Just divorce and find another man who will give you mind-blowing sex. It does exist.... are you going through the menopause? Sorry if it's a personal question... :smile2:


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> mmm... maybe you and your husband weren't particularly suited. Just divorce and find another man who will give you mind-blowing sex. It does exist.... are you going through the menopause? Sorry if it's a personal question... :smile2:




Maybe we weren't physically suited, I tend to believe that. I love my husband very much, was always way more attracted to him, than him to me. That's why I was so unhappy a few years ago.

I believe I am getting closer to menopause; my periods are getting a lot lighter.

For me, divorce isn't an option. Too many other things about my marriage are great.

But I don't look down on you, or anyone else, who feels that they can't take the sexlessness, and need to move on. Sex is supposed to be a benefit of marriage.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> Why on earth waste your life with someone who doesn’t desire you.


Sometimes you have little complications, like kids. And you do end up spending years trying to understand, especially when your partner is clever enough to give you a little bit to keep you there. A totally sexless marriage would have been a no no for me. But my wife was clever...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Maybe we weren't physically suited, I tend to believe that. I love my husband very much, was always way more attracted to him, than him to me. That's why I was so unhappy a few years ago.
> 
> I believe I am getting closer to menopause; my periods are getting a lot lighter.
> 
> ...



I still love my wife, but I can't be in a sexless marriage. Our story is complicated, but maybe it's matter of high drive or low drive... and I can't be in a relationship without feeling "one", if you know what I mean. It's just me. I'm sure lots of people can just carry on regardless...

Maybe the menopause will help you... or maybe not!


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> I still love my wife, but I can't be in a sexless marriage. Our story is complicated, but maybe it's matter of high drive or low drive... and I can't be in a relationship without feeling "one", if you know what I mean. It's just me. I'm sure lots of people can just carry on regardless...
> 
> Maybe the menopause will help you... or maybe not!




Well, I wish you the best as you move into the next chapter of your life; and I hope you find the sexual fulfillment you yearn for, and your wife can remain happily sexless and not feel "bothered" anymore by you needing sex.

I sure hope the menopause helps me. My sex drive was so high 3-4 years ago, I really was quite miserable. Not a way I'd want to spend the rest of my life. Wouldn't wish it on anyone.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Well, I wish you the best as you move into the next chapter of your life; and I hope you find the sexual fulfillment you yearn for, and your wife can remain happily sexless and not feel "bothered" anymore by you needing sex.


Thank you! I'm not really looking for a relationship right now... I haven't "digested" the shock yet. Maybe I will find another partner at some point. The problem with my relationship right now is that we used to have sex, although not very often. Twice a month, but that was enough for me to keep the bond going. So, I'm coming from a different dynamics. I love my wife and I want to be with her, but I can't without sex.



notmyrealname4 said:


> I sure hope the menopause helps me. My sex drive was so high 3-4 years ago, I really was quite miserable. Not a way I'd want to spend the rest of my life. Wouldn't wish it on anyone.


I know, I've been there...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Andy1001 said:


> When I first started reading on tam the most puzzling thing I read was about people living in sexless marriages.I read all these stories about men doing this,that and the other to try and get their wives in the mood for sex.These men don’t seem to realize that all their bow kowtowing to their wives made them look weak and undesirable which made the likelihood of sex even less.
> Like you,I have no problem spoiling my girlfriend on occasion, but it isn’t to have sex.If she doesn’t want to have sex with me that’s fine but I wouldn’t be hanging around for long in these circumstances.
> Why on earth waste your life with someone who doesn’t desire you.


Amen brother, amen.

I just don't get it. Until I came to these boards looking for advice on other things, I did not realize that everyone was not having as much sex as I was. I figured even for an ugly guy, or complete dork, that they had someone that wanted to be with them. 

I just never thought about it. I figured that everyone was at least fairly successful with woman. 

I just thought everyone was around the same as me. I get that maybe I am older now, I have learned more, but that does not mean I really understand any of this. 

I just don't get it...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Sometimes you have little complications, like kids. And you do end up spending years trying to understand, especially when your partner is clever enough to give you a little bit to keep you there. A totally sexless marriage would have been a no no for me. But my wife was clever...


IA, you have it figured out now, I hope you continue making moves to make yourself happy. I'm about your age and I assure you that it is out there...

I just wish I could have figured out other things sooner, sex I got, it is the other things I had problems with that piss me off...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> I talk about that in the context of thread like this and others where men, mostly, are trying to understand rejection, sexlessness, low sex, for the most part.
> 
> I actually did not really know that this type of stuff happened to so many people. I new some woman had husbands that did not have sex with their wives, which I got to be on the receiving end of.
> 
> ...



It’s very simple: this is a website about marriage problems. No1 problem is low/no/unsatisfying sex or cheating. For some reason, the majority are men for the sex part. (Though to be honest, I would have expected more posts from women re domestic violence/abuse etc).

The other thing is that people only discuss this one aspect. Maybe everything else in the marriage is amazing and honky dory? Also maybe the sex part is not even that much of a bother to leave someone over? What I mean is you are just getting a snippet of the whole picture. And often a very skewed/subjective picture.



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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> Amen brother, amen.
> 
> I just don't get it. Until I came to these boards looking for advice on other things, I did not realize that everyone was not having as much sex as I was. I figured even for an ugly guy, or complete dork, that they had someone that wanted to be with them.
> 
> ...


And before coming to Tam I thought everyone with a liberal arts education made awesome money and had great fun doing so.

It's not quite this simple. We've been through this before. 

I've said many times in Tam and elsewhere that humans aren't very good estimating probabilities. Think of your as a puzzle and Bob's life as another, similar but not quite the same puzzle. You have a few common pieces in the same location, but the two pictures could be cats in one and unicorns in the other.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> And before coming to Tam I thought everyone with a liberal arts education made awesome money and had great fun doing so.
> 
> It's not quite this simple. We've been through this before.
> 
> I've said many times in Tam and elsewhere that humans aren't very good estimating probabilities. Think of your as a puzzle and Bob's life as another, similar but not quite the same puzzle. You have a few common pieces in the same location, but the two pictures could be cats in one and unicorns in the other.


Again with the cats!
Just kidding John,how is Miles these days.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> Again with the cats!
> Just kidding John,how is Miles these days.


Mies van der Rohe the cat is doing great despite traveling to the in-laws in a Prius. 

Everyone is looking at issues from their own perspective. What we need is a more systems holistic view. Humans tend to match a few check boxes and voila! What worked for Bob will work for me as well. 

It's not quite like that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I just meant that there was no pretending about how the experience felt. 

If she got to the finish line, or didn’t. If she felt really turned on or not so much. 

And fwiw in our house - happiness is a perfectly acceptable substitute for passion. What is Love if not happily doing something nice for your partner. 





inmyprime said:


> Some women seem to enjoy the feelings caused by PIV even if no orgasm is achieved - so I am not sure I would call it ‘pretend sex’ necessarily. Not that many women orgasm from PIV.
> My wife orgasms 99% of the time (whether PIV or other). I don’t take any credit for it: people have different bodies, there’s not much you can do about it.
> There was a brief period (after last pregnancy I think) where she lost some sensations and couldn’t orgasm as easily from oral.
> 
> ...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> In summary
> 1. Acceptance of our stylistic differences
> 2. Empathy driven humor
> 3. Transparency is rewarded
> ...


I'll add to this an important aspect for me is an *acceptance and understanding for each other's frequency.* While you touched on that regarding HD/LD and perhaps include it above. As an HD I often know very good and well when I might be asking for something that goes well above and beyond my wife's natural frequency. So when she is unable to respond or needs her space, I very well know what I am getting myself into if she is rather short with me in a moment like this. However if I initiate at a moment that is in tune with her frequency, I do appreciate when she is patient and clearly communicates what is needed for us to connect in the very near future (later that day or tomorrow). Most often she has a busy schedule of things I may not be aware that need to be cleared out of the way so we can enjoy some time together uninterrupted. 

A sprinkle of humor in the above situations always helps as well! We are both Star Trek fans, so I'll often make a reference as if the ship's mechanic and how much maneuverability the engines have left before it is gonna blow! Then my wife (the captain) will push to make it to an exciting destination where no one has gone before if the ship will not explode while trying to get there!  

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> The flower delivery guy? Or was that a trick question.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That was a good one! 😊😊

Our anniversary!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FalCod said:


> The best way to reject someone is with a counter-offer. The offer depends on the reason for the rejection.
> 
> If you are too tired, you suggest a time in the near future when you won't be tired and you make it a priority to ready then. The same would be true if you just aren't in the mood.
> 
> ...


Good feedback!

I think the issue most here on TAM deal with is a frequency mismatch. The HD becomes starved of sexual intimacy and the LD becomes starved of nonsexual intimacy. The idea of getting naked and hugging to an LD might be a moment of needed nonsexual intimacy for a back rub and a nice long talk about serious topics, and HD will see it as a needed moment to get straight to the point and begin intercourse... because this type of situation might leave an LD feeling used, a fear of nonsexual intimacy might develop.

*So an HD has to also learn to accept and embrace moments of true nonsexual intimacy, or else the LD feels just as rejected.* As someone wrote here earlier that a spouse could reject him as long as his **** was in her mouth. Perhaps that was a joke, but that is the way many LD partners are made to feel. Especially those LD spouses struggling with low self esteem and claiming they do not feel much of a close friendship with their spouse. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Women not enjoying sex with their partners is a universal, worldwide issue, if I am to believe the larger volume of voices from women worldwide.
> 
> With a disproportionately small number of exceptions, men do not want to go to the effort to understand the level of foreplay that creates a desire in a woman. They just expect that desire to be there in the same way it is for them - nearly instant and often.
> 
> There is a way to bridge this gap and I think that conversations really increase the success rate within a couple. I feel men, overall, don't want to go to the effort to build desire in their partner - and prefer women who have a built in desire instead.


Who doesn't want an SO with a built in desire.

That is the question being brought to the surface here.

Notice I didn't say man or woman. 

Data seems to indicate more men than woman are ready to have sex and the first hint if inquiry of "hey, do you want to?".

My favorite ******* joke on foreplay is "hey, you awake?", while poking with finger.

I'm typing this, but if situation came up here with W, I'm ready now. Or would be in 1.5 seconds. That's just me.

I'll agree, there is a balance.


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

If I'm going to be rejected I would prefer something along the the lines of, "Babe, I'm sorry but I am just really tired tonight. How about tomorrow morning?" Which is then followed up with a back scratch and holding me.

Basically if I am going to be rejected I want 3 things:

A reason
An actual time when he would be willing to do it (and actually follow through)
Some form of intimacy/touching/bonding to tide me over

OR he could just offer to get me off. Like really it doesn't take that long to please your partner. I would do the same.

Note: these are not usually things I get. Usually it's just a no, laughing me off, or I don't feel like it. But it would definitely make it hurt less.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TheCuriousWife said:


> If I'm going to be rejected I would prefer something along the the lines of, "Babe, I'm sorry but I am just really tired tonight. How about tomorrow morning?" Which is then followed up with a back scratch and holding me.
> 
> Basically if I am going to be rejected I want 3 things:
> 
> ...



I am virtually the same way, and have noticed that it is almost impossible to ask for these things without seeming needy. One habit I have noticed myself doing is preemptively asking for a back scratch and a hug first which my spouse will almost always accommodate. Although she does sometimes enjoy tickling my back instead of scratching if she is in an odd mood to pick at me. ...but when done right I find this soothing enough to calm down and relax and the desire to initiate intimacy will often subside. It is perhaps an odd thing as an HD to experience, but I find this strategy works well when I know the odds are not good. 

However when it comes down to the need to "just get off" I know my spouse prefers one of two things: A) I wait until we can enjoy a moment together because she responds very well to my desire, or B) to just be self sufficient if our upcoming schedules are too busy to allow for enough time to make it happen. Managing this has never been easy until we worked out a schedule that is our backup plan in the event things just don't happen naturally. 80% of the time things happen naturally these days, but that 20% can open old wounds if it were not for a backup plan. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

badsanta said:


> Question for those here on TAM... we have all been there! Struggling to reconcile differences in libido, managing untimely hormonal urges, and being desperate to connect physically with a spouse only to be rejected when we try to initiate sexual intimacy.
> 
> So for those with a high libido, what would be your ideal way to be rejected for sex? Imagine if you had a complete say so in the matter, but limit the nature of what you would need to only things of a nonsexual nature... what would be the best way for your partner to convey to you that they are not receptive at that moment, but still make you feel loved and appreciated?
> 
> ...


The rare rejection I receive from my wife is just fine as is. In those times, she will tell me that she feels horrible, not well or whatever is ailing her. I say OK and offer anything I can to make her feel better. This happens 4x a year maybe. Other than those times, if she doesn't feel physically well enough to enjoy the act of PiV sex, she always offers a hj/bj and she does it with enthusiasm and emotional involvement that conveys real emotional intimacy. That's what I need, emotional intimacy. 

I am very lucky to have found a wife who has been willing to put in the work to overcome the obstacles that life sometimes presents to her, obstacles that dampen desire and libido. I know and appreciate that immensely. 

I hope that answers your question.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Here's a good example of in my mind, remembering my ways aren't everyone's ways, and really when someone implies something for everyone/that "everyone" does this/that, it is rarely if ever that "everyone" does/handles things the same.

IE for me, to remember not to project.

Which leads to my actual thought and comment here. Which is how would a woman handle a rejection, that TCW mentions. She's got good input here.

I hadn't thought about how a woman would handle. Yes that sounds like I'm a little slow on the uptake here 😊😊


All that said. I can't remember a time where dear W said let's go and I didn't. I'm sure it's happened in lo these many years I just can't think of when.

Wow. I do know it would have to be kind and in a sensitive way. 

I remember one time when I'd just got home from work and she said surprise I want you to do me doggie, this is for you, and I remember I was tired and hungry and almost said let's eat first but in a couple seconds as she was nekkid on the bed while I still had my tie on, I got in the mood quick. She was so earnest. 

Gotta love the W. I don't know why that still pops in my mind.

To me it's just foreign a W would have to endure a rejection. I mean who doesn't want a poke?

Just my two cents.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I was hoping for a two-way dialogue where men were leaning into the conversation with listening. 

It isn't rejection.

It's stating a preference.

I don't reject my husband. 

I honor my own preference.

It is the man's choice to frame a woman's decision for herself as a rejection of him. 

And by framing it as a rejection, it turns into a guilt trip or pressure to perform when she doesn't want to - for whatever reason.

If there are conflicts over this interaction, then a loving conversation would be helpful.

But the last way I want to live my life is with the feeling that I have an obligation to fulfill my husband's sex life. My husband and I have a loving interactive relationship that includes respect for each other's preferences at any given moment.

I really do not like the phrasing of a woman stating her preference whether or not to have sex as "You're REJECTING me!" 

Uh, no, I just don't want to have sex right now.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> While I have never lost a child, like you and your Husband have, I have been through a lot in my life. Though nothing that bad, bad but nothing like that...
> 
> I do want to say that I cannot imagine what you guys went through, and god bless you.
> 
> ...


The reason I'm saying "otherwise" is to give a different viewpoint. 

The man's mind: she rejected me

The woman's mind: I just don't want to right now.

The woman doesn't think in her head: "I'm going to REJECT him!"

So, you could say "But that how I TAKE it..."

It goes back to What was said, What was meant/How it was heard, How it is perceived.

If you let go of the perception of being rejected, you can bridge an understanding with a conversation.

I think it's important in the pursuit of true intimacy to have more conversations about what was said, what was meant vs. how it was heard, how it is perceived.

Perceiving something as rejection is focusing on *self* - perceiving something as her preference at the moment is focusing on the *other person*.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> I am virtually the same way, and have noticed that it is almost impossible to ask for these things without seeming needy. One habit I have noticed myself doing is preemptively asking for a back scratch and a hug first which my spouse will almost always accommodate. Although she does sometimes enjoy tickling my back instead of scratching if she is in an odd mood to pick at me. ...but when done right I find this soothing enough to calm down and relax and the desire to initiate intimacy will often subside. It is perhaps an odd thing as an HD to experience, but I find this strategy works well when I know the odds are not good.
> 
> However when it comes down to the need to "just get off" I know my spouse prefers one of two things: A) I wait until we can enjoy a moment together because she responds very well to my desire, or B) to just be self sufficient if our upcoming schedules are too busy to allow for enough time to make it happen. Managing this has never been easy until we worked out a schedule that is our backup plan in the event things just don't happen naturally. 80% of the time things happen naturally these days, but that 20% can open old wounds if it were not for a backup plan.
> 
> ...


I think the idea of scheduling sex is a good one. I guess there's some sort of ideal that sex will be a daily spontaneous thing but in longterm relationships where a couple is really busy, scheduling can provide a sense of relief for both people. I need to be thinking about sex for awhile before I'm in the mood to have sex - and I don't have that man-mindset of being visually stimulated by seeing other physical reminders, e.g., sexy men or whatever visual cues men feel they deal with on a daily basis. I have a lot of cutoff points. Like, I'm not turned on by men who are younger than me or movie star men or male models, etc. My husband is who I'm attracted to - so I don't get into sex unless I make an effort at it.

It's a relief for me to schedule sex time because then I know I'm free to pursue my creative career without worry or concern about whether or not I'm "taking care of" my husband's desires to have sex. With a known quantity involved, we know we are both engaged in that particular activity of our marriage.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H27,
I’m not speaking as a moderator, just a fellow human. 

This is a really good thread on a very commonly discussed topic. There are plenty of stories on here where the woman is the one complaining of being rejected as a person. 

It seems as if there is a frequency threshold at which, declining an activity becomes indistinguishable from rejecting the person asking. That threshold varies by marriage and is solely defined by the person who’s requests are being declined. 

Whether or not you intend, your tone is coming across as sexist and condescending. 

Some partners are easygoing about this stuff, others fixate on it. 






happiness27 said:


> I guess I'll give up.
> 
> I was hoping for a two-way dialogue where men were leaning into the conversation with listening.
> 
> ...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I was hoping for a two-way dialogue where men were leaning into the conversation with listening.
> 
> It isn't rejection.
> 
> ...


This is way too simplistic.

Women tend to want an emotional connection to their partner. One major way they feel that emotional connection is to have conversations with their partner.

Well, let's say he just isn't in the mood for much conversation, except for maybe once a month.

He isn't rejecting her, if he only wants to talk to her once a month. He isn't rejecting her. He's merely stating his preference!!

It's the *woman's choice* to frame his decision for himself (about how often he likes to have conversations) as a rejection of her.

The last way he should have to live his life is with the feeling that he has an obligation to fulfill his wife's need for connection by conversation.

He is not rejecting her. He just doesn't want to talk to her right now.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I was hoping for a two-way dialogue where men were leaning into the conversation with listening.
> 
> It isn't rejection.
> 
> ...



I know. You honour your preference to reject your husband sexually 

I know what you mean but we don’t typically live in a vacuum, especially if another human being is involved.



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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Livvie said:


> This is way too simplistic.
> 
> Women tend to want an emotional connection to their partner. One major way they feel that emotional connection is to have conversations with their partner.
> 
> ...


Fortunately, when I had the conversation with my husband about reframing the word "rejection" as, rather, me stating my preference, he didn't mock me and make fun of me by creating the above scenario.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I know. You honour your preference to reject your husband sexually
> 
> I know what you mean but we don’t typically live in a vacuum, especially if another human being is involved.
> 
> ...


People perceive things the way they perceive them. I think that when two marriage partners stay engaged with each other, understanding each other more clearly can bring them closer together.

I don't reject my husband if I don't want sex at the moment he wants sex. I am honoring myself and making choices for myself. I've been in enough situations in my life and he has also been in situations in his life where sex was forced. As part of the healing from that, being able to own and honor one's own choices is crucial. 

I love my husband. He's truly one of a kind. He never demeans me regarding sex nor does he push himself on me ever. 

At the same time, it's important for him to understand that he is valued no matter what. So I never want him to misunderstand what is going on if I state my preference...it doesn't mean he is not valued or that he isn't sexually desirable. This is why we needed to have a conversation about reframing the concept of rejection. He saw this as an epiphany because for a long time and just about anywhere you want to read about it, men frame the idea of a woman saying no to sex is called: rejection. 

Two people having mutually agreed upon sex is conceptual sex. To be guilted into having sex isn't consensual. 

Do you want to have sex?

No.

Okay.

Do you want to have sex?

Yes.

Okay.

Either person can say either thing. Respecting the other person's answer and being emotionally stable enough to accept it as an expression of the other person's preference and not turn it into a psychologically twist of thinking seems to be a happier, more positive way to live.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> H27,
> I’m not speaking as a moderator, just a fellow human.
> 
> This is a really good thread on a very commonly discussed topic. There are plenty of stories on here where the woman is the one complaining of being rejected as a person.
> ...




I'm not talking about constant sexless marriages. I'm talking about people who are having sex but not quite getting the dual timing down. One might feel like it now, the other one later and that might turn into kind of a pattern for awhile with their timing being off. 

I was trying to get people who are using the word "rejection" to see how that is a inward way of perception. If you look outward at your partner, instead, there may be something there that you aren't noticing or talking about that can be ironed out, either at that moment or in a later conversation. If one focuses on the "me" part of it, yeah, the "me" is going to say rejection. The "other thinking" is to have compassion for the other person. This is a loving thing to do that can lead to greater intimacy.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> H27,
> I’m not speaking as a moderator, just a fellow human.
> 
> This is a really good thread on a very commonly discussed topic. There are plenty of stories on here where the woman is the one complaining of being rejected as a person.
> ...


You are still using the word: rejection. That is the word I'm challenging. It's inward thinking. It's self-first thinking. It's not thinking about the other person. It's thinking "I want, I can't have" instead of "s/he wants is different than what I want" 

People have to work things out when they disagree without using guilt-trip verbiage to pressure or make their partner feel badly.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> People perceive things the way they perceive them. I think that when two marriage partners stay engaged with each other, understanding each other more clearly can bring them closer together.
> 
> I don't reject my husband if I don't want sex at the moment he wants sex. I am honoring myself and making choices for myself. I've been in enough situations in my life and he has also been in situations in his life where sex was forced. As part of the healing from that, being able to own and honor one's own choices is crucial.
> 
> ...




Sure, if your husband is happy with your preferences/rejections, go for it!


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Sure, if your husband is happy with your preferences/rejections, go for it!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Again, mocking and ridicule. And, I'm out.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> You are still using the word: rejection. That is the word I'm challenging. It's inward thinking. It's self-first thinking. It's not thinking about the other person. It's thinking "I want, I can't have" instead of "s/he wants is different than what I want"
> 
> 
> 
> People have to work things out when they disagree without using guilt-trip verbiage to pressure or make their partner feel badly.




Pot / kettle. If your husband perceives your choices as rejection (which I understand he is not but many/most men would, if it happens frequently), then you are the one doing the self-first thinking. Not sure why that’s not obvious.



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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Pot / kettle. If your husband perceives your choices as rejection (which I understand he is not but many/most men would, if it happens frequently), then you are the one doing the self-first thinking. Not sure why that’s not obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So, should I have sex against my will so as to not be selfish and so he doesn't feel rejected? 

Is there some sort of collective thinking that a person who doesn't, for instance, want a cup of tea, should have a cup of tea anyway so the other person will feel good?

This is about mutual consent - male or female. Sex is better when it's mutually consensual.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> So, should I have sex against my will so as to not be selfish and so he doesn't feel rejected?




No of course not. You have to make yourself want to have sex  That’s the whole point.




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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> So, should I have sex against my will so as to not be selfish and so he doesn't feel rejected?



Joking. You are basically positing that your preference should be above your husband’s need for sex.

I believe in ‘norms’ within a marriage. If you reject him on occasion (sorry: ‘prefer not to have sex with him’), then it’s not an issue but if the rejections are frequent, then it will probably become an issue at some point. How many rejections should he take in your opinion before it becomes an issue for him?

I have many preferences myself...For example I prefer for my wife to have anal with me every day. Should I honour my preference?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> No of course not. You have to make yourself want to have sex  That’s the whole point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This:smile2:

Or at least, 'talk yourself into it' more often. For the essentially no desire wife it only happens if she takes the time to talk herself into it. Own it.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> MEM2020 said:
> 
> 
> > H27,
> ...


I'm thinking that you need to look up the definition of rejection. I'm serious. You can try to spin it all you like with word play, but there is an accurate name for a specific action, the action of REJECTING. something.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Joking. You are basically positing that your preference should be above your husband’s need for sex.
> 
> I believe in ‘norms’ within a marriage. If you reject him on occasion (sorry: ‘prefer not to have sex with him’), then it’s not an issue but if the rejections are frequent, then it will probably become an issue at some point. How many rejections should he take in your opinion before it becomes an issue for him?
> 
> ...


Your position assumes that I would advance to frequent rejections...leading to "and THEN what?" scenario. 

My husband and I had three years of almost daily conversations about our sex life (which also included frequent sex) wherein we worked out a ton of issues between us and about us as individuals.

This is, by and large, a marriage forum. What I talk about on here is intended to give a voice of some degree of experience that involves decades of a wide variety of experiences - the good, the bad and the ugly - what worked and what didn't work.

One of the things that I see frequently on this forum is the word "rejection" and I finally decided to turn and look at that concept and challenge it. 

I can see that some posters are digging in and standing firmly by that word as a moniker for a person who initiates sex to a partner who does not want to have sex...at that moment in time, in that place, or in the way the initiating partner wants to. 

To my way of thinking, an initiator will always face the possibility that what they initiate will be declined. A mature person understands that there are reasons behind this and a positive-thinking person who is respectful of another person's rights will find no need to have a negative response.

For instance, I do not shake hands with people because this is a common way for germs to be spread, especially in the winter time and especially in medical settings, such as doctor's offices and hospitals. I don't feel a need to explain myself every time other than to say, "No offense, I don't shake hands, but I'm happy to meet you."

Tons of people shake hands because they don't want to be perceived as rude - even when that act of shaking hands may result in them getting a cold and/or passing along the germs to others.

As for sex, once I explained to my husband much of what goes on for me at this stage of my life, he stopped making what was going on with me into something that was WRONG with him. There's nothing wrong with him. He's a great, thoughtful lover with good grooming habits and a lovely demeanor 99.9% of the time. When I introduce him as my better half, I mean it. He's a great guy. 

I don't want him ever thinking that I reject him for any reason. THIS is why I am challenging the term "rejected" - men could use a different viewpoint.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I don't want him ever thinking that I reject him for any reason. THIS is why I am challenging the term "rejected" - men could use a different viewpoint.



Yeah. There’s also sexual neglect, as another view point, when someone prefers not to have sex with their partner.

I mean it depends. I think there are two things at play:
- how often do you ‘prefer’ not to have sex with him. Can you put a number on it?
- how he feels about it (not how he SHOULD feel about it)

Would your husband be allowed to have sex with another woman/prostitute etc? If it is about preference, is he allowed to prefer to have sex with an escort, or is that against your preference?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Your rationalization hamster could be used to provide electricity for a medium sized city... 

You're rationalizing your decision based on your view alone. Sex has a duality in it, as it involves two people. There's a big gap here. 

Once you start with a baseline of "x per week" you can easily adjust it up and down based on mood, location, time of month, special events, and so on. If your baseline is "x per week or less, contents may settle during shipping" all bets are off.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Livvie said:


> I'm thinking that you need to look up the definition of rejection. I'm serious. You can try to spin it all you like with word play, but there is an accurate name for a specific action, the action of REJECTING. something.


Denotation of a word is the literal dictionary definition. 

However, connotation is the social overtones given to a word.

In this case, we are talking about the connotation of the word: rejection

My personal philosophy is that we humans have a lot more control over our emotional responses than we sometimes give ourselves credit for. 

If we are the type of person who considers ourselves helpless to control our emotional responses to situations, I would challenge that. 

Of course, if a mountain lion jumped out on the path in front of us, most of us would have the logical fear response. There are some extreme situations where survival depends on us responding to save ourselves. However, how often are we actually going to encounter that? Not much these days in our controlled environments. That doesn't mean that we don't exercise our emotional responses on a daily basis. They just aren't usually life-threatening.

Consider the emotional response of rejection. If we buy into a collective set of thinking/writings/conversations among our peers that a partner who doesn't want to have sex if we initiate it is a form of rejection (and that rejection hurts), then we will continue a pattern of hurt...UNTIL we turn and challenge that thinking.

What if you challenged the idea of it being rejection when you encountered a partner who didn't want to have sex when you did? What if you said to yourself, I want to have sex but the other person does not right now and you told yourself that was okay - and trained yourself that you were not being hurt by that other person (since they were nice and you have a good relationship with them where sex was still a part of it but, just not right now)? 

A person is capable of learning to navigate their emotions without inflicting harm on themselves or other people. But current thinking has to be challenged.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yeah. There’s also sexual neglect, as another view point, when someone prefers not to have sex with their partner.
> 
> I mean it depends. I think there are two things at play:
> - how often do you ‘prefer’ not to have sex with him. Can you put a number on it?
> ...


To me, the topic is reframing the term "rejection" so prostitutes and sex frequency are red herrings to me. Does anybody want to talk about how they could change their perception of "rejection"?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> Your rationalization hamster could be used to provide electricity for a medium sized city...
> 
> You're rationalizing your decision based on your view alone. Sex has a duality in it, as it involves two people. There's a big gap here.
> 
> Once you start with a baseline of "x per week" you can easily adjust it up and down based on mood, location, time of month, special events, and so on. If your baseline is "x per week or less, contents may settle during shipping" all bets are off.


I don't think of sex in terms of charts and graphs, nor do I base a good sex life on a frequency formula to be adjusted up or down. 

What do you think about challenging your emotional reactions to the concept of "rejection"? Are you unable to control this response?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Not speaking as a moderator.

H27,

It would be nice if you were able to say: I am asking the HD people to look at this differently because .....

But that is not your approach. Your approach is: HD = Men, and therefore 
The men on this site are too ... fill in the blank with adjectives ... to 

I am challenging you to review your assumption that it is men who don’t take well to a partner treating a request for sex as analogous to a request for tea. Turns out that at a certain frequency of declining a partners sexual invitation, there is a gender neutral reaction.

The physiology of my tea drinking experience is unaffected by whether or not M2 chooses to join in. 
Sex is different though because she’s better at it than I am. Ergo having sex with her is far superior to having it with myself.

Also: Were I to have sex with another woman and then, when caught, casually equate that to having a cuppa with said female, I would expect M2 to attempt to engage in a different sort of penetrative act with me - one involving the use of a kitchen knife. 






happiness27 said:


> Your position assumes that I would advance to frequent rejections...leading to "and THEN what?" scenario.
> 
> My husband and I had three years of almost daily conversations about our sex life (which also included frequent sex) wherein we worked out a ton of issues between us and about us as individuals.
> 
> ...


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Not speaking as a moderator.
> 
> H27,
> 
> ...


Once again, the topic: rejection

Why would a person choose to react to a scenario wherein they initiate sex with a person who does not, in turn, want to have sex by causing hurt to themselves by saying to themselves "She has rejected me"? Can you reframe the encounter so that you don't cause hurt to yourself? Can you control your emotional responses?


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)




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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H27,
Everyone manages desire gaps. 

You claim to have sorted this fully with your H, and if he seems happy you likely have done. That said monogamy is a responsibility as well as a commitment. 

The whole reason to schedule sex is to negotiate a mutually acceptable frequency and prevent the HD partner from feeling neglected, rejected, deprioritized....






happiness27 said:


> Your position assumes that I would advance to frequent rejections...leading to "and THEN what?" scenario.
> 
> My husband and I had three years of almost daily conversations about our sex life (which also included frequent sex) wherein we worked out a ton of issues between us and about us as individuals.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You say below: ‘She has rejected me.’ You seem totally unable to frame this in terms of human nature. Only able to see it as a broken, gender specific reaction. 

Why are you unable to type: they have rejected me

If this was a lecture at uni, I’d report you to provost for extreme gender bias. 




happiness27 said:


> Once again, the topic: rejection
> 
> Why would a person choose to react to a scenario wherein they initiate sex with a person who does not, in turn, want to have sex by causing hurt to themselves by saying to themselves "She has rejected me"? Can you reframe the encounter so that you don't cause hurt to yourself? Can you control your emotional responses?


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> H27,
> Everyone manages desire gaps.
> 
> You claim to have sorted this fully with your H, and if he seems happy you likely have done. That said monogamy is a responsibility as well as a commitment.
> ...


Yes and I must add that I like sex also, very much so. 

But one thing my husband and I are quite aware of since we share life philosophies, is that no one else can make you feel something. Each person is in control of their own emotions and reactions. I don't *make* him feel neglected...I can't control his emotions - wow, wouldn't that be a lot of power? I don't make him feel rejected...he chooses that response, or not. 

Understanding that another person doesn't control your responses actually gives you more control over how you craft your life and viewpoint. If another person can't *make* you be unhappy, then your happiness is under your own control. It's freedom.

Of course, we're are together because we are not A-holes to each other. Respect.


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> You say below: ‘She has rejected me.’ You seem totally unable to frame this in terms of human nature. Only able to see it as a broken, gender specific reaction.
> 
> Why are you unable to type: they have rejected me
> 
> If this was a lecture at uni, I’d report you to provost for extreme gender bias.


Topic: Reframing the term "rejection"


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Denotation of a word is the literal dictionary definition.
> 
> However, connotation is the social overtones given to a word.
> 
> ...


If one were to say to one's SO "I had a really difficult day, could I talk to you about it?" and they responded with popping open the last beer of a six pack and saying "Nope. I don't feel like it at the moment, I'm watching the game"; I guess you could "train yourself" to think that that's okay and you were not being hurt by the other person.

But what's the point? To "train yourself" to be happy with a partner who doesn't care about your needs and desires? 

Why would you want to train yourself to be happy with that?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> I don't think of sex in terms of charts and graphs, nor do I base a good sex life on a frequency formula to be adjusted up or down.
> 
> What do you think about challenging your emotional reactions to the concept of "rejection"? Are you unable to control this response?


Ah, keeping score is a favorite human activity... why did you think we invented numbers and Excel? 

I'm not concerned about rejection per se. I'm concerned about rejection becoming the modus operandi of doling out enough sex to maintain the status quo. Maintenance sex, if you wish.

I've said before that humans suck at estimation. We also suck at patterns. When my marriage started its downwards slope I noticed s-wife initiating more fights towards the weekend which was traditionally our time... A bit of charting straight from my experimental classes revealed some entertaining patterns... Gotta hand it to Dr J2 as she was quite subtle at first... 

I'm not saying you do this, mind you. I'm just saying that the temptation to weaponize sex is too big, and the control power afforded also too big... The mind works best when there's some unpredictability in the system. But the mind also reads rejections piled up like cars on I-880 and that's all she wrote from there.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I would think that in a marriage, each is somewhat responsible for the happiness of the other. 

I don't expect my business partners to make me happy, I expect them to do what we have contracted to do. I have different expectations for a spouse - I expect someone who will try to make my life better. 





happiness27 said:


> Yes and I must add that I like sex also, very much so.
> 
> But one thing my husband and I are quite aware of since we share life philosophies, is that no one else can make you feel something. Each person is in control of their own emotions and reactions. I don't *make* him feel neglected...I can't control his emotions - wow, wouldn't that be a lot of power? I don't make him feel rejected...he chooses that response, or not.
> 
> ...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> If one were to say to one's SO "I had a really difficult day, could I talk to you about it?" and they responded with popping open the last beer of a six pack and saying "Nope. I don't feel like it at the moment, I'm watching the game"; I guess you could "train yourself" to think that that's okay and you were not being hurt by the other person.
> 
> But what's the point? To "train yourself" to be happy with a partner who doesn't care about your needs and desires?
> 
> Why would you want to train yourself to be happy with that?


You are in control of your responses to any given situation. Period.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I would think that in a marriage, each is somewhat responsible for the happiness of the other.
> 
> I don't expect my business partners to make me happy, I expect them to do what we have contracted to do. I have different expectations for a spouse - I expect someone who will try to make my life better.


And for every person, there are different expectations of what another person will do to "make my life better" - the fact is that you are responsible for your own happiness. When we are content with ourselves, we have a lot to give to others. 

It's a fact that people who are constant caregivers of others eventually hit a wall of resentment. It's a well-studied psychological phenomenon that we have to take care of ourselves to enough degree that we can then give to other people. 

So, what I would say to your post here is that if you flip it around, it's more empowering. You take pride in your appearance, health, spiritual and emotional well-being and you naturally give freely to another person. When there are two people in a relationship with this kind of self-reliance, then the ebbs and tides of life that come our way are shored up by our individual personal strengths.

If we, on the other hand, depend on another person to bring us happiness, we will fall short of happiness if and when that other person doesn't respond the way we want/need them to from time to time. If we look for validation outside of ourselves, we are always going to be looking for that thing to fill us up with what we cannot provide ourselves.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> Ah, keeping score is a favorite human activity... why did you think we invented numbers and Excel?
> 
> I'm not concerned about rejection per se. I'm concerned about rejection becoming the modus operandi of doling out enough sex to maintain the status quo. Maintenance sex, if you wish.
> 
> ...


I don't know all the abbreviation lingo here so I'm not sure what s-wife means or Dr J2.

I also don't have any experience in my own head about weaponizing sex in a marriage. I read about it here and about it being used as a power control - but I find that baffling. 

The way I interpret sexual issues is that its a reflection of other incompatibilities in the relationships. I don't think two people respectful and loving towards each other are going to be the ones using sex as a weapon. There's other stuff going on.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Including getting yourself in the mood for sex?

The basic idea you are proposing is that we can choose to prevent our partners from significantly impacting us in a negative manner. And we can - via detachment. Push down that path and you end up disconnecting completely.

That said, you have tried to dance around the idea of gap size in various ways. Gap size matters. 





happiness27 said:


> You are in control of your responses to any given situation. Period.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Including getting yourself in the mood for sex?
> 
> The basic idea you are proposing is that we can choose to prevent our partners from significantly impacting us in a negative manner. And we can - via detachment. Push down that path and you end up disconnecting completely.
> 
> That said, you have tried to dance around the idea of gap size in various ways. Gap size matters.


I admit that I am unfamiliar with some of the jargon, such as "gap size"

You can't control another person, actually. You can only control yourself. I think if you think about that, you'll agree. Anything we try to do to control another person is done through other mechanisms, a negative one being manipulation. 

Detachment is actually a pretty helpful tool. Again, though, it's a reach to say that detaching appropriately will lead to an overall detachment from the relationship. 

We always have a choice how to react. That's a basic tenet of psychology.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H27,
By gap size I merely refer to the spread between what each person wants. Once a poster said, I want sex once a month, my partner wants it daily, so we compromise at twice a month. 

That is a big gap, it’s 30 fold. Worse, the HD person often wants the LD to act passionately. 




happiness27 said:


> I admit that I am unfamiliar with some of the jargon, such as "gap size"
> 
> You can't control another person, actually. You can only control yourself. I think if you think about that, you'll agree. Anything we try to do to control another person is done through other mechanisms, a negative one being manipulation.
> 
> ...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> H27,
> By gap size I merely refer to the spread between what each person wants. Once a poster said, I want sex once a month, my partner wants it daily, so we compromise at twice a month.
> 
> That is a big gap, it’s 30 fold. Worse, the HD person often wants the LD to act passionately.


Depending on what priority sex falls into, a person has the option of staying in the relationship, leaving it, sex therapy or working out another suitable arrangement. I've known couples who are in swingers. I make no judgement on that other than to say that's not something I would like to participate in. I've also seen arrangements where a man was in swingers with his wife's blessing and a woman in swingers at her husband's blessing. There are many other styles of extra-marital open sex relationships.

But staying in a relationship where sex is a high priority over other things and there is this thing you call gap size - and there are no other solutions agreed upon to resolve the person's unhappiness with frequency, is still the person's choice to stay. It is. There is no one else making that decision.

There is no right or wrong. It's just whether or not you like the consequences.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H27,
I 100% agree with the choice thing. And sometimes I tell people, by acting like a victim you are doing the most unsexy thing possible. I also believe you are always in one of 3 buckets in a relationship.
1. Willing to walk if you dislike how you are being treated 
2. Willing to ensure your needs are met even if that means the other person leaves you
3. The victim






happiness27 said:


> Depending on what priority sex falls into, a person has the option of staying in the relationship, leaving it or working out another suitable arrangement. I've known couples who are in swingers. I make no judgement on that other than to say that's not something I would like to participate in. I've also seen arrangements where a man was in swingers with his wife's blessing. There are many other styles of extra-marital open sex relationships.
> 
> But staying in a relationship where sex is a high priority over other things and there is this thing you call gap size - and there are no other solutions agreed upon to resolve the person's unhappiness with frequency, is still the person's choice to stay. It is. There is no one else making that decision.
> 
> There is no right or wrong. It's just whether or not you like the consequences.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> To me, the topic is reframing the term "rejection" so prostitutes and sex frequency are red herrings to me. Does anybody want to talk about how they could change their perception of "rejection"?



I’m not sure you understood the point of ‘reframing’ it: any selfish act can be justified as ‘choice’ and the partner’s reaction can just be put down as their own responsibility.

When you are in a relationship, you don’t live in a bubble: how you ‘choose’, influences how the partner feels, whether you like it or not, but that’s the reality.

You choose to slap them across the face: it’s their choice to feel hurt about it. How far are you going to take this...’philosophy’, until one of you has enough?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Yes and I must add that I like sex also, very much so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes of course that is true. But you seem to take this a step further: you are using it to (potentially) justify selfish behaviour.
Like I asked: can you put a number on the times you choose not sleep with him?
What happens if that number goes way up because you don’t feel like it? What happens if you don’t feel getting out of bed and be a caring wife anymore? Why should he feel anything about what you ‘choose’ to do? (Good or bad).





happiness27 said:


> Of course, we're are together because we are not A-holes to each other. Respect.



Exactly, your words not mine: Because you are (like any normal person) aware that YOUR choices, affect OTHER people. Yet for sex, you seem to be making this exception. There’s a bit of cognitive dissonance, if you ask me (which you are not 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> You are in control of your responses to any given situation. Period.



I know. It’s a bit like communism: sounds good in theory. Nightmare in practice. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8




I posted that video before  (in a different context).

Theory is all fine. Why don’t we talk specifics?
How much do you want sex, on average?
How much does your husband want sex?
How often do you do it in reality?

Because if the gap is too large, your philosophy will go out of the window unfortunately.

You also surely understand that if the gap is too large or the incompatibility too great, it won’t work? And if your partner walks away, does it matter whether he does it because he is hurt or because he is ‘choosing’ to walk?

I think we are stuck on semantics here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I agree with H27, IF the relationship HAS a good balance. Unfortunately, many relationships are not well balanced. This doesn't mean that H27's reasoning is wrong.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Once again, the topic: rejection
> 
> Why would a person choose to react to a scenario wherein they initiate sex with a person who does not, in turn, want to have sex by causing hurt to themselves by saying to themselves "She has rejected me"? Can you reframe the encounter so that you don't cause hurt to yourself? Can you control your emotional responses?


 @happiness27

It may be better if you don't assume that it's an emotional response either male or female that is a state "unable to control", take the emotional out of your consideration. 

It's a desire to spend time together that may have no reason not to do that an SO says no, and continues to FB or watch TV, or similar. 

Then it's just aggravation. Too much aggravation and one looks for ways not to have future aggravation. 

Which leads to distance between SOs which isn't good.

There's a duality to it. Team effort.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I'm not talking about constant sexless marriages. I'm talking about people who are having sex but not quite getting the dual timing down. One might feel like it now, the other one later and that might turn into kind of a pattern for awhile with their timing being off.
> 
> I was trying to get people who are using the word "rejection" to see how that is a inward way of perception. If you look outward at your partner, instead, there may be something there that you aren't noticing or talking about that can be ironed out, either at that moment or in a later conversation. If one focuses on the "me" part of it, yeah, the "me" is going to say rejection. The "other thinking" is to have compassion for the other person. This is a loving thing to do that can lead to greater intimacy.


 @happiness27 one problem on TAM is that people use a model of sexuality based on their own personal experiences and assume that it may be that way for everyone else. I am guilty of that myself. As one woman on TAM said once that you might have a man that has only ever been with one woman, and then he uses that experience to try and explain all women to all other men. 

So in context with my situation and some others here as well, I will make a note that my spouse has zero libido. She never engages in self exploration, never has any fantasies, and has told me, "I do not understand what people mean when they say they are horny as I honestly don't think I have ever experienced that in my life for any of my relationships." Based on that I would define that as someone that does not experience spontaneous desire and therefor her personal preference is always "not right now." So the concept of dual timing is a moot point. 

Is my marriage sexless? No, quite the opposite. We both enjoy very meaningful intimacy. However I am solely responsible for making our intimate life thrive. My wife has said if it was not for me that she would likely just miss out on all the joys of physical intimacy in marriage. My wife tends to fit into the research that might be described by someone like the author Michele Weiner-Davis that claims there are those that only have a "responsive desire." These are individuals that do not have a natural spontaneous desire, but yet are fully capable of "responding" to the desire of a spouse. 

In the past I used to see her total lack of initiating intimacy as if it were rejection, but I learned to frame that differently knowing she lacks spontaneous desire. However if I am solely responsible for initiating and I have been patiently waiting well beyond my desired higher frequency to accommodate my wife's preferences for a lower frequency and she still feels the need to decline my advances, well it is hard to not feel that as rejection. OK, I have been waiting over a week to share some but you can't stop binging on your new favorite netflix show for us to spend some time together. 

Badsanta


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

badsanta said:


> OK, I have been waiting over a week to share some but you can't stop binging on your new favorite netflix show for us to spend some time together.
> 
> Badsanta


I've been replaced by an iPad, which, ironically, was a present from me to my wife... :laugh:


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> You are in control of your responses to any given situation. Period.


Sure.

One obviously wants to control one's responses to a given situation if one's response might be counter productive.

But you seem to be saying that "controlling one's response" includes being happy with something that makes you unhappy.

I just don't see the point of that.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

@happiness27

When your H says no when you want to have sex, how do you frame that interaction, and how do you feel, and what do you think about being said no to, and are you ready to ask again/when?

Pls respond honestly, not an ideal what should be felt, etc.

Thanks!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> I don't know all the abbreviation lingo here so I'm not sure what s-wife means or Dr J2.
> 
> I also don't have any experience in my own head about weaponizing sex in a marriage. I read about it here and about it being used as a power control - but I find that baffling.
> 
> The way I interpret sexual issues is that its a reflection of other incompatibilities in the relationships. I don't think two people respectful and loving towards each other are going to be the ones using sex as a weapon. There's other stuff going on.


Both are references to my separated wife after 35 years together. She's also a PhD (applied math). 

You may not weaponize sex intentionally but if it's perceived as such by your partner it might as well be. The subconscious does wonders.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My extensive research  suggests that if the desired frequency for both uses the same time units you're generally ok. Example, 3x a week vs 1x a week is reconcile-able. But 3x a week vs 3x a month isn't.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Sure.
> 
> One obviously wants to control one's responses to a given situation if one's response might be counter productive.
> 
> ...


Nothing can make you unhappy - YOU make yourself unhappy. You have a lot more control over your actions when you realize that you are the one choosing your response. It's an observer mentality. 

This is an awful lot like what is in H.O.T.Y.N.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> My extensive research  suggests that if the desired frequency for both uses the same time units you're generally ok. Example, 3x a week vs 1x a week is reconcile-able. But 3x a week vs 3x a month isn't.


What other things are in your equation for sexual satisfaction besides frequency? Genuine question. Hypothetically, if you were my partner, I would ask you this question as a way of gaining more understanding of you.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> Both are references to my separated wife after 35 years together. She's also a PhD (applied math).
> 
> You may not weaponize sex intentionally but if it's perceived as such by your partner it might as well be. The subconscious does wonders.


I think a person's intentions are very important to understand. Of course, I don't pretend to know all the things that went on in that relationship - but I would just like to address what you've said here as a general point of discussion.

If a person perceives that their partner is weaponizing sex - that is something going on in YOUR head vs. the partner's intention of what is actually going on with HER. (her, being your female partner, whoever that would be). 

If my husband were to make up a story in his head about what I think, it would be better if he asked me what I actually think and that I would be honest with him about that.

That way, he would know what was actually going on instead of what HE thinks. 

My husband and I have actually had this conversation. He's an absolutely wonderful guy and I love him to pieces - but when he does what I call "making up stories in your head" - I love to have the opportunity to tell him what was ACTUALLY going on in MY head. 

When we talk about this, he's, like, "uh...oh. I was making something up again, wasn't I?" 

Yeah, babe. 

That story he makes up in his head has more to do with his own way of thinking and perceiving himself in the world. If he has some part of him that doesn't think he is attractive and sexy and successful enough, that story he makes up in his head will involve reinforcing that viewpoint he has of himself. 

This is why using sex as a measure of self-validation is a slippery slope. A person can bring more happiness to himself if he thinks and does things in his life that bring him self-satisfaction - then he isn't looking to his partner to do that. The partnership then becomes two whole people coming together, both bringing an overflow of loving interaction to each other.

I understand my husband so deeply and he does me since we've been together for so long and really had a lot of deeply personal conversations. Many of those conversations have been contentious, because they are HARD conversations. You really have to trust another person to share on this level. But the intimacy that comes out of this really builds something incredible.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> @happiness27
> 
> When your H says no when you want to have sex, how do you frame that interaction, and how do you feel, and what do you think about being said no to, and are you ready to ask again/when?
> 
> ...


If my husband doesn't want to have sex, he doesn't want to have sex. We are both former victims of SA, so we get each other on a respect level. If no sex goes on for a few days or a week, he can either initiate a conversation or I can. And we do. I think this is healthy even if the conversations are sometimes are sloppy or difficult. Communicating means we both still care.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I’m not sure you understood the point of ‘reframing’ it: any selfish act can be justified as ‘choice’ and the partner’s reaction can just be put down as their own responsibility.
> 
> When you are in a relationship, you don’t live in a bubble: how you ‘choose’, influences how the partner feels, whether you like it or not, but that’s the reality.
> 
> ...


The very basis of consent is that every person has a right to say if and when they want to have sex. 

I think this basic understanding is the place we all have to agree upon.

From there, there are many choices the partners can make. Each choice has a consequence.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yes of course that is true. But you seem to take this a step further: you are using it to (potentially) justify selfish behaviour.
> Like I asked: can you put a number on the times you choose not sleep with him?
> What happens if that number goes way up because you don’t feel like it? What happens if you don’t feel getting out of bed and be a caring wife anymore? Why should he feel anything about what you ‘choose’ to do? (Good or bad).
> 
> ...


Of course our choices effect other people. There are no exceptions. We can't control other people's reactions, only our own reactions.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I know. It’s a bit like communism: sounds good in theory. Nightmare in practice.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Try focusing on controlling your reactions with a kind, loving, compassionate choice every time for one day, two days. See if there is a conflict between in making choices with these parameters vs. what we might call your knee-jerk responses.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> What other things are in your equation for sexual satisfaction besides frequency? Genuine question. Hypothetically, if you were my partner, I would ask you this question as a way of gaining more understanding of you.


Frequency, involvement level, receptivity, communication, willingness to adjust, willingness to try, willingness to please and be pleased... But if frequency is compromised, it's rather pointless to talk about the rest. The rest can be fixed, and are rather fluid to begin with. Frequency is what stares you in the face, so to speak.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"That way, he would know what was actually going on instead of what HE thinks. "

I would not count on an individual being able to tell us what is in their mind at all times accurately, honestly, or both.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> Frequency, involvement level, receptivity, communication, willingness to adjust, willingness to try, willingness to please and be pleased... But if frequency is compromised, it's rather pointless to talk about the rest. The rest can be fixed, and are rather fluid to begin with. Frequency is what stares you in the face, so to speak.


So, is sexual frequency your number one priority in a relationship?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> If no sex goes on for a few days or a week, he can either initiate a conversation or I can.


What would that conversation consist of?

All I can imagine is:

1) "We haven't had sex in a week"

2) "That's because I haven't wanted to have sex in a week"

1) "Oh, okay"


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> If my husband doesn't want to have sex, he doesn't want to have sex. We are both former victims of SA, so we get each other on a respect level. If no sex goes on for a few days or a week, he can either initiate a conversation or I can. And we do. I think this is healthy even if the conversations are sometimes are sloppy or difficult. Communicating means we both still care.


Happiness27, I've read this entire thread and agree with your way of thinking. When my wife "rejects" me, my understanding, from our many conversations and time together, is that she isn't rejecting ME, she is simply unable to participate in any kind of sexual expression while bringing our agreed upon requirements to the table, emotional intimacy and enthusiasm. A young James Spader (her fantasy panty-dropper) could be in my place and at those times of "rejection", he'd get "rejected" as well. As I've previously said, this happens maybe 4x a year. I am probably guessing high because it happens so rarely. 

I choose to be happy as you've said. That way of thinking has come from practicing lot of the teachings of Dalai Lamas. I don't know anything about the Buddhist religion but I do enjoy the compassion and inner peace that some of its philosophies have brought me. 

I'm terrible at putting thoughts in writing but I just wanted you to know that I get you and enjoy reading about the beautiful understanding that you have with your husband.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> So, is sexual frequency your number one priority in a relationship?


No, but it's like yeast in bread. No yeast, no bread, regardless of whether you have wheat fertilized by unicorn dung...

As a social sciences guy I always keep an eye on the "trend". Mind-blowing sex once a month is awesome for a while, or if you're in the merchant marine. But eventually the little voice in your head asks the question "gee, Dr John, if sex is great with Dr J2 as she alludes it to be, why only once a month?"....

The above fundamental question has no answer other than what we don't want to hear btw. At least for me.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> If a person perceives that their partner is weaponizing sex - that is something going on in YOUR head vs. the partner's intention of what is actually going on with HER. (her, being your female partner, whoever that would be).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This view of thinking is interesting and I enjoy reading your thoughts actually.
But I do see holes somehow and perhaps it’s not immediately apparent.

For example, I’m not sure if you are aware but by telling your husband what is supposed to be going on in your head, you are in fact telling him what should be going on in HIS head. Sometimes what we feel is what we feel and it may be justified or not but you are basically taking control of what he is supposed to be thinking and feeling...which doesn’t seem right.

It also presumes that YOU always know what goes on in your head. It’s actually not as easy to always know this because what you actually mean, when you say what goes on in your head is actually trying to describe your feelings which is not always straightforward. Feelings come first then you try to understand and verbalise them. And actually verbal communication is a very very small part of total communication and your husband’s feelings about what he perceives of your feelings may be true to him, yet you are telling him basically: “it’s all in your head, babe, snap out of it”.

I would not be happy with such an arrangement. I’m sure you are a sensible and empathetic person but for others, this type of thinking would be open for abuse.

For example:
“We haven’t had sex for ages, I’m getting worried you may not find me attractive anymore”. 
You: “you are imagining things again”
Then another month goes by. Rinse and repeat.

Do you not see a problem with this? To me, it would appear that someone could be using this philosophy to justify whatever they want to do while at the same time invalidating someone else’s feelings completely.

Why is he not justified to feel the way he does? What if you did stop find him attractive but won’t admit it, even to yourself? 
There are so many clues people can pick up on in communication. Sometimes imagined, sometimes real. I don’t really quite see what this approach solves.



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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H27,
I agree with John on this point. It’s like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Below some threshold frequency (which varies by couple and within couples by age and health status), frequency itself begins a singular focus. 

It’s like finances. At a certain size gap between income and desired lifestyle, it permeates your thinking in a bad way.






happiness27 said:


> So, is sexual frequency your number one priority in a relationship?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> This view of thinking is interesting and I enjoy reading your thoughts actually.
> But I do see holes somehow and perhaps it’s not immediately apparent.
> 
> For example, I’m not sure if you are aware but by telling your husband what is supposed to be going on in your head, you are in fact telling him what should be going on in HIS head. Sometimes what we feel is what we feel and it may be justified or not but you are basically taking control of what he is supposed to be thinking and feeling...which doesn’t seem right.
> ...


The conversations don't go the way you are describing. 

I never find my husband unattractive. 

He can feel justified in his feelings but he needs to know where those feelings are coming from - from within himself and not from me.

What is actually happening is that I'm wrapped up in a project or problem I'm trying to solve.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> No, but it's like yeast in bread. No yeast, no bread, regardless of whether you have wheat fertilized by unicorn dung...
> 
> As a social sciences guy I always keep an eye on the "trend". Mind-blowing sex once a month is awesome for a while, or if you're in the merchant marine. But eventually the little voice in your head asks the question "gee, Dr John, if sex is great with Dr J2 as she alludes it to be, why only once a month?"....
> 
> The above fundamental question has no answer other than what we don't want to hear btw. At least for me.


So, again, the question: is frequency your measure? What is your range of frequency/happiness? How can you and your partner work towards an agreement on this? 

I'm also wanting to take the conversation beyond circulating the point of frequency - so if that frequency question can be established, then we can go to another phase of the conversation.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The large contradiction between what someone says - and what they are doing - causes a lot of anxiety.

It’s also true that your partner is consciously or subconsciously doing a risk assessment. 

If I tell him my sex drive has disappeared will he:
- leave or 
- start interrogating me about it on a frequent basis or
- have an affair or
- thank me for telling him

If I say that intercourse hurts, will he....





john117 said:


> No, but it's like yeast in bread. No yeast, no bread, regardless of whether you have wheat fertilized by unicorn dung...
> 
> As a social sciences guy I always keep an eye on the "trend". Mind-blowing sex once a month is awesome for a while, or if you're in the merchant marine. But eventually the little voice in your head asks the question "gee, Dr John, if sex is great with Dr J2 as she alludes it to be, why only once a month?"....
> 
> The above fundamental question has no answer other than what we don't want to hear btw. At least for me.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Happiness27, I've read this entire thread and agree with your way of thinking. When my wife "rejects" me, my understanding, from our many conversations and time together, is that she isn't rejecting ME, she is simply unable to participate in any kind of sexual expression while bringing our agreed upon requirements to the table, emotional intimacy and enthusiasm. A young James Spader (her fantasy panty-dropper) could be in my place and at those times of "rejection", he'd get "rejected" as well. As I've previously said, this happens maybe 4x a year. I am probably guessing high because it happens so rarely.
> 
> I choose to be happy as you've said. That way of thinking has come from practicing lot of the teachings of Dalai Lamas. I don't know anything about the Buddhist religion but I do enjoy the compassion and inner peace that some of its philosophies have brought me.
> 
> I'm terrible at putting thoughts in writing but I just wanted you to know that I get you and enjoy reading about the beautiful understanding that you have with your husband.


If you're getting rejected "maybe 4x a year", sure you're taking it well.

My wife also only very rarely rejects me.

On those rare occasions when she does, my response is something along the lines of "Oh my God, what's wrong and what can I do to help?". Of course, I don't take it personally.

People here having a problem being rejected for sex aren't experiencing what we are. 

The idea that one can be rejected 90% of the time but shouldn't take it personally is stupid.

If my wife asks for a kiss goodbye in the morning and I say "Not now" 90% of the time, she'd take it personally as a reflection of how I feel about her and the priority I give her needs, desires and happiness.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> If my husband doesn't want to have sex, he doesn't want to have sex. We are both former victims of SA, so we get each other on a respect level. If no sex goes on for a few days or a week, he can either initiate a conversation or I can. And we do. I think this is healthy even if the conversations are sometimes are sloppy or difficult. Communicating means we both still care.


Which is great. Should sex for some reason become every two weeks or more, yours and his mindset may (read will) change, because something deeper is likely to be going on.

If a couple maintains frequency, the increased easy communication solves problems that before they become issues.

That's just one perk of maintaining frequency.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> The large contradiction between what someone says - and what they are doing - causes a lot of anxiety.
> 
> It’s also true that your partner is consciously or subconsciously doing a risk assessment.
> 
> ...


Nonetheless, these conversations are crucial. My husband and I have had some very contentious ones. It takes a lot of courage, honesty and explorations - both individually and as a couple. 

I think the real risk lies in couples NOT talking about issues and doing unspoken risk assessments. Talking and having the courage to say: "I'm afraid if I don't do what you want, that you will leave me." But the conversation has to start somewhere or the relationship will go no where.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Which is great. Should sex for some reason become every two weeks or more, yours and his mindset may (read will) change, because something deeper is likely to be going on.
> 
> If a couple maintains frequency, the increased easy communication solves problems that before they become issues.
> 
> That's just one perk of maintaining frequency.


I want to make sure I'm following your line of reasoning. Are you saying that if a couple has sex often enough, any problems that they have between them will be more easily solved? This is an interesting, oft-repeated concept that seems to be predominantly male in thinking. Am I wrong about that? 

To me, when there are sexual issues, it's a symptom that I would prefer to tackle outside of sex first. I'm not sure that I would be the type of personality that could ignore a non-sexual issue by having sex more often.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> The conversations don't go the way you are describing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




However the conversations go, you are still the final arbiter who decides what your husband is justified to feel and what he isn’t, and I’m not sure that’s balanced.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> If you're getting rejected "maybe 4x a year", sure you're taking it well.
> 
> My wife also only very rarely rejects me.
> 
> ...


"The idea that one can be rejected 90% of the time but shouldn't take it personally is stupid." 

How effective would it be for a person to wallow in that situation without seeking solutions? If a person takes it personally that they are not having sex and blames the other party all the time, they get stuck. If they are able to step aside and say, "There's something bigger going on here" - then they can look at solutions and options - therapy, sex therapy, marriage counseling, medical...and beyond that conversations about compatibility...making decisions about what each person wants out of a relationship, if that is working, if it is not working...and then various solutions to create sexual satisfaction to the level of each person - openly, honestly, agreeably. 

You and your wife have your love languages that you understand about each other. There are millions of couples of various cultures who do not openly display affection. So, the idea of kissing and hugging outside of sex would be uncomfortable for them. I'm not a big kissy, touchy person. My husband is. I compromise here by going ahead and kissing him good-bye the five or six times he makes excuses to do that before he walks out the door. I find it adorable but I don't need that from him - and I wouldn't hold it against him if he didn't do that. It doesn't matter either way to me. Physical touch is not one of my love languages. But let me catch a glimpse of him lounging naked out on the private little deck, seeing the sunlight play off his skin and his soft body hair, and I'm making sexy plans in my head.

I'm a creative. And it's important to me in our lovemaking that I am coming from a place within me that is genuine, heartfelt, stirring. I'm very unpredictable also, which is one of the turn-ons for him about me. He absolutely never knows what I'm going to do at any given time and, frankly, neither do I. 

I guess this is the next phase I wanted to get to past this frequency thing - an appreciation for the individual partner, who they are and what they bring to the mix. I'm fully heterosexual but I think women can be very creatively erotic. I feel like men who are open to looking beyond how they, themselves, view sex, the more territory there is to explore, even beyond the physical. In a very universally studied way, women operate sexually through mental stimulation so much. Men who are willing to meet her on this playground can potentially enjoy a much more vast experience. Yes, it's going to culminate physically.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I want to make sure I'm following your line of reasoning. Are you saying that if a couple has sex often enough, any problems that they have between them will be more easily solved? This is an interesting, oft-repeated concept that seems to be predominantly male in thinking. Am I wrong about that?
> 
> 
> 
> To me, when there are sexual issues, it's a symptom that I would prefer to tackle outside of sex first. I'm not sure that I would be the type of personality that could ignore a non-sexual issue by having sex more often.




I can tell you that about 95% of my life’s problems are solved right after a good orgasm.
I know I am primitive and I intensely dislike myself for being like this, but I blame the designer * 

You are completely spot on about talking being most important thing though and problems in sex being a symptom of other problems. It always seemed obvious to me somehow. Yet people still continue focusing on sex in isolation. I think we need to introduce a more holistic approach...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Men who are willing to meet her on this playground can potentially enjoy a much more vast experience.



Yes absolutely. I wish somebody told me that for women, sex happens in their mind (and also what that meant) so I wouldn’t have had to spend the next 20 years poking in the dark. Literally.



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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> If you're getting rejected "maybe 4x a year", sure you're taking it well.
> 
> My wife also only very rarely rejects me.
> 
> ...


In that situation (bolded) it would seem to me that you weren't giving priority to YOUR needs, desires and happiness. There are 2 options: you don't love her or the two of you haven't established a line of communication that is built on respect, assertive honesty and an open mind to the other person's perspective. Take a look at the conversations here at TAM where the first solution is really for the poster to tell their spouse what they've told us. 

You may be right and I totally wrong but ask yourself why you rarely get "rejected". To me, it's obvious that your wife has an understanding with you about what sex is really about (not orgasms) and you've achieved that by the type of communication that I mentioned above. 

Congrats....you've made yourself vulnerable and open to honesty and are reaping the rewards....a great sex life. :smile2:


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> "The idea that one can be rejected 90% of the time but shouldn't take it personally is stupid."
> 
> How effective would it be for a person to wallow in that situation without seeking solutions? If a person takes it personally that they are not having sex and blames the other party all the time, they get stuck. If they are able to step aside and say, "There's something bigger going on here" - then they can look at solutions and options - therapy, sex therapy, marriage counseling, medical...and beyond that conversations about compatibility...making decisions about what each person wants out of a relationship, if that is working, if it is not working...and then various solutions to create sexual satisfaction to the level of each person - openly, honestly, agreeably.
> 
> ...


Bingo. Very well said.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> So, again, the question: is frequency your measure? What is your range of frequency/happiness? How can you and your partner work towards an agreement on this?
> 
> I'm also wanting to take the conversation beyond circulating the point of frequency - so if that frequency question can be established, then we can go to another phase of the conversation.


I'm going to wear out my social sciences guy hat here... Frequency range within "established norms" as they say. 

The "normal" for a healthy married couple in their 50s empty nest and all in America will probably be low single digits per week. Just guessing. Not every day unless you are the Energizer Bunny or the Cialis bathtub couple, but not once a month unless you're on TAM .


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yes absolutely. I wish somebody told me that for women, sex happens in their mind (and also what that meant) so I wouldn’t have had to spend the next 20 years poking in the dark. Literally.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know, right? 

I asked my husband during one of our thousands of conversations, how he felt like he learned about sex (60s) and he said the magazines like Playboy and from other boys who talked about it. He said that, before me, none of his sexual encounters involved any kind of conversation from the women about what THEY liked. It was, literally, poking around in the dark and unspoken cues.

Once he and I started talking more about our likes and dislikes, we started having more genuine sex. We have gone to great lengths to talk about the differences in our approaches to sex. I've been surprised myself about the things I've learned from listening to so many different sources of information about how men and women view sex and love. 

When people get stuck in tunnel vision, my own experience with my husband is that, once we learned more about each other, our sex life expanded greatly. Once I was able to trust him to engage me more fully, our sex life expanded. He's a toggle switch. I'm a dimmer switch, so to speak. I think these differences can be complimentary - not opposing - if we change our viewpoint from apprehension to appreciation of each other.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Question for those here on TAM... we have all been there! Struggling to reconcile differences in libido, managing untimely hormonal urges, and being desperate to connect physically with a spouse only to be rejected when we try to initiate sexual intimacy.
> 
> So for those with a high libido, what would be your ideal way to be rejected for sex? Imagine if you had a complete say so in the matter, but limit the nature of what you would need to only things of a nonsexual nature... what would be the best way for your partner to convey to you that they are not receptive at that moment, but still make you feel loved and appreciated?
> 
> ...


Can I start with a few basic questions? 

What constitutes sex to you - and what is your main goal of having sex?

How do you feel before sex? How do you feel after sex?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Sex is any mutual sexual activity. Doesn't have to be the 10-O variety. 

Why have sex? Validation, connection, communication, pleasure, because it feels right at the time, and all that.

Before: anticipation, planning, make time, some extra romance , etc. 

After: reflection, the experience, as designers say, the meaning... The meaning is the best - or worst - part.

Sometimes we simplify. Sometimes we make the experience last several hours. No kidding. The standard metric for success: Dr J2 cooking an omelette afterwards, at 2:00 AM... The fancier the omelette the better the experience was for her.

That was the good old days. I realized things weren't going well when the meaning started slipping. Not when the quality did. It's hard to explain meaning - look for meaning in art as a parallel. You get up the next day and while you enjoyed it you feel a bit empty inside. Like WTF was this about. 

I knew we were done when the meaning started looking suspiciously like a one night stand. 

Sigh. Good thing I have some Moldovan wine...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> Sex is any mutual sexual activity. Doesn't have to be the 10-O variety.
> 
> Why have sex? Validation, connection, communication, pleasure, because it feels right at the time, and all that.
> 
> ...



I was going to ask you if you feel like you know your partner well enough to say, without guessing, what her answers would be to those questions?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well... At the risk of bragging and invoking the wrath of TAM, I'm a bit of a professional mind reader. Especially with her. Meaning, I tended to know what's going on in her mind. 

So, yeah, I did know. She's the kind of person that is often very talkative, and let's her emotions out. I'm very talkative as well but tend to control my emotions a bit. 

In our good days for her it was done more for pleasure and relaxing, not really for romance per se. She would expect to be romanced but would rarely romance herself. A cultural trait I suppose. Nor did she put meaning on a pedestal as I did. It was a lot more about the physical act rather than the deeper touchy feely parts.

But, these were the good old days. As I said, Moldovan wine to the rescue.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> Can I start with a few basic questions?
> 
> What constitutes sex to you - and what is your main goal of having sex?
> 
> How do you feel before sex? How do you feel after sex?


Tell you what - I will answer the questions also:

Sex to me is a set of seductions that lead to more intense physical touching leading to an intense or series of intense orgasms for one or both people. 

I feel a chemical surge that radiates from various points on my body, I feel happiness and warmth. After sex, I feel warmth and contentment and for about 30 minutes afterwards, I still feel the some of the chemical after-effects of the orgasms.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

happiness27 said:


> Tell you what - I will answer the questions also:
> 
> Sex to me is a set of seductions that lead to more intense physical touching leading to an intense or series of intense orgasms for one or both people.
> 
> I feel a chemical surge that radiates from various points on my body, I feel happiness and warmth. After sex, I feel warmth and contentment and for about 30 minutes afterwards, I still feel the some of the chemical after-effects of the orgasms.


For me, sex has very little to do with orgasm. It is about feeling excitement. It is about feeling connected. Is about feeling desired. It is about feeling loved. It is about knowing that I am making her feel good. Holding and touching and being held and being touched. It is about contentment. It is about knowing that she wants me and I want her and there is nobody else that matters. The orgasm is secondary to all those things.

When I see her doing things to avoid this happening. When she says she isn't in the mood. These things hurt me because it makes me feel like the feelings I was feeling in the paragraph was one sided. That I was feeling them, but she must not have been, or she would want to again.

Now if she isn't in the mood four times a year (like another poster), then I wouldn't have an issue. If she wasn't in the mood 5 times a week, I wouldn't have an issue. It becomes an issue when she is only receptive once a month (or less). It means the feelings I was feeling above aren't based on something real.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I can tell you that about 95% of my life’s problems are solved right after a good orgasm.
> I know I am primitive and I intensely dislike myself for being like this, but I blame the designer *
> 
> You are completely spot on about talking being most important thing though and problems in sex being a symptom of other problems. It always seemed obvious to me somehow. Yet people still continue focusing on sex in isolation. I think we need to introduce a more holistic approach...
> ...


Yes!

Reality at best. This is exactly what I'm saying. 

A couple is rarely if ever closer than when they're spending time together in bed. The period of time after sex; obstacles fall away when talking.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I want to make sure I'm following your line of reasoning. Are you saying that if a couple has sex often enough, any problems that they have between them will be more easily solved? This is an interesting, oft-repeated concept that seems to be predominantly male in thinking. Am I wrong about that?
> 
> To me, when there are sexual issues, it's a symptom that I would prefer to tackle outside of sex first. I'm not sure that I would be the type of personality that could ignore a non-sexual issue by having sex more often.


Whether solving sexual problems and what I'm talking about here which are any problems or just life living speed bumps that it's best to share and all be on the same page, my point is:

Either SO abstaining or withholding sex "until we work this (whatever) out" is adding to the widening of the chasm between them and destroying opportunities to maintain closeness and easier communication ie a couple is typically closer in bed together than any other times.

Respectfully, some of your comments indicate you're providing input on what should happen in ideal circumstances or in a perfect world.

Like a younger person does when looking at a construction design on paper having never actually built what's in the design in the real world.

A more experienced person who's built 50 or a hundred similar items has a more real view of the challenges to complete the project. 

It doesn't make the inexperienced person a bad person unless they become a pain by insisting they know better, because something should be simpler than they're being advised. "If everyone would just do like I'm saying" gets annoying when repeated over and over and those with more experience say that mostly or never works with these conditions. 

It doesn't always have to do with age, but typically an older more experienced person that's been through a hurricane can more practically advise one that's never actually experienced a hurricane but are reading up on it.

Like those with cell phones that are surprised their phones don't work after a hurricane. Experienced folks know among the first things to get blown down are cell towers and antennas on buildings. 

So, (sorry for the long post) in closing, it's never better to withhold sex while problem solving. Use the closeness as a ramp to better solve whatever the problem is, in a close loving marriage. 

I do say all this with respect and appreciation for your views. I just suggest you more fully appreciate the quality of other answers in posts above that may differ from yours.

Whew!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Tell you what - I will answer the questions also:
> 
> Sex to me is a set of seductions that lead to more intense physical touching leading to an intense or series of intense orgasms for one or both people.
> 
> I feel a chemical surge that radiates from various points on my body, I feel happiness and warmth. After sex, I feel warmth and contentment and for about 30 minutes afterwards, I still feel the some of the chemical after-effects of the orgasms.


I wasn't going to say anything but forgive me.

Your answer above is very close to what a text book definition says what sex is.

My question is, what does sex mean to YOU (and your SO?) ?

Best,

R


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

After reading through this thread (and others over time) I see a few things that jump out at me regarding how one will have to handle and overcome rejections for intimacy:



*Managing a frequency gap in desire.* Some couples can do it and for others it is more challenging. For those that have little or no gap, the concept of being rejected when initiating intimacy is just a hiccup here and there when timing was not just right. For couples managing a significant gap, rejection of one's physical desire for a spouse is an everyday reality.
*Frequency of rejections.* Separate from a desire gap, would be a couple that struggles to read each other's nonverbal queues. This may result in one partner just not knowing when to initiate and failing more often than not. Other couples might easily read each other and the idea of rejecting one another for intimacy is not a problem.
*Managing different modes of desire.* Some individuals desire a dialog during intimacy which is common for those that enjoy role play. Others are sensation based and may desire a very quiet and calm meditative experience in which any speaking and unanticipated eye contact can be very disruptive and ruin the mood. 

Badsanta


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

badsanta said:


> After reading through this thread (and others over time) I see a few things that jump out at me regarding how one will have to handle and overcome rejections for intimacy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Being my wife a responsive type, we went down the scheduling mode... every couple of weeks. But we failed. Why? Because one of us didn't keep the promise. And kept breaking it. Without communication. So, in a perfect world, there is no rejection. Just a hiccup. In the world of the frequency gap, the gap often becomes a canyon. And you keep falling in it.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Yes absolutely. I wish somebody told me that for women, sex happens in their mind (and also what that meant) so I wouldn’t have had to spend the next 20 years poking in the dark. Literally.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm having sex in my mind right now. 😘😘


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I'm having sex in my mind right now. 😘😘


That's all I have left! :laugh:


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Being my wife a responsive type, we went down the scheduling mode... every couple of weeks. But we failed. Why? Because one of us didn't keep the promise. And kept breaking it. Without communication. So, in a perfect world, there is no rejection. Just a hiccup. In the world of the frequency gap, the gap often becomes a canyon. And you keep falling in it.


In a relationship with both a responsive desire AND a frequency gap, finding the right strategy feels like:










However, did you know Wile E Coyote used trampolines?










But you can imagine what happened... Yep! He bounced right back up and fell right into an adjacent canyon twice as deep!










Now according to @happiness27 if the Wile E Coyote feels rejected in the process, it is because he does not understand respect the Road Runner's preference for aversion. In reality no one was rejected. 

So In Absentia now that hopefully you have learned a few things through failure (just like me as well), what would be a better strategy? What if you took on the role of your own devil's advocate and asked your wife if you could be of assistance in helping her to avert physical intimacy in your marriage. What would happen then?










hmmmmm?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rejection is a viewpoint. Choose it if you want.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> Rejection is a viewpoint. Choose it if you want.


Rejection chooses you 

It's not that simple... Rejection is usually not a one time event. Systemic rejection isn't quite this simple to "choose".


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> Rejection chooses you
> 
> It's not that simple... Rejection is usually not a one time event. Systemic rejection isn't quite this simple to "choose".


If you want to look at it as you are a victim of rejection, you can.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> If you want to look at it as you are a victim of rejection, you can.


This isn't about victimology. This is about honest communication. In statistics we have this thing called time series analysis... You seem to think rejections are independent events unrelated to one another. Others may not see it quite this way after a few rejections (ie the dreaded trend).

The two partners in a relationship don't operate in a vacuum.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> This isn't about victimology. This is about honest communication. In statistics we have this thing called time series analysis... You seem to think rejections are independent events unrelated to one another. Others may not see it quite this way after a few rejections (ie the dreaded trend).
> 
> The two partners in a relationship don't operate in a vacuum.


Perception is everything.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Your H comes home, says he met someone else and they are having an affair which is purely physical. 

He says - it’s just sex. And he means it. 

And then adds, this takes the pressure off us to try and synch our terribly mismatched drives. 

This scenario will create an intense conflict between your chassis and your spirit. The former will go berserk. The latter will try to self soothe.





happiness27 said:


> Perception is everything.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Your H comes home, says he met someone else and they are having an affair which is purely physical.
> 
> He says - it’s just sex. And he means it.
> 
> ...


Is an infidelity scenario scary?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> Perception is everything.


In marketing perhaps  

A lot of mental effort goes past perception and into deeper, integrative thinking. That is what does the damage. As it should.

To paraphrase Obama, "choices have consequences". Oftentimes consequences we can't begin to understand. Why? Because we think past appearances - perceptions - and into real semantics - meaning. The moment the rejected partner goes into this mode, nothing good can come out.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It seems to be for M2.

It’s not really something I fear. I don’t think that she can find someone else who is as suitable a companion. 

Anyone can find a better sexual partner. Especially anyone doing the full adult voyage from mid twenties til death do you part. Novelty and stability aren’t exactly best friends.

But if you’ve hit the lottery on companionship, hard to picture someone leaving for sex. 





happiness27 said:


> Is an infidelity scenario scary?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

badsanta said:


> In a relationship with both a responsive desire AND a frequency gap, finding the right strategy feels like:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, at least you made me smile... I never managed to get out of the canyon... :smile2:


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Rejection is a viewpoint. Choose it if you want.


This mindset taken too far leads to the enabling of sub par relationships. 

Perception is everything.... so... just view sub par relationship dynamics with a positive spin, right? Your partner isn't rejecting you in x,y,z way ( not just sex, could be time together, conversation, decision making). They are merely doing what they want, and making their own choices!!!!!! It's alllll good!!!!!!! 

No.

Enter codependent enabling/rationalization of Poor Treatment if taken too far.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Livvie said:


> This mindset taken too far leads to the enabling of sub par relationships.
> 
> Perception is everything.... so... just view sub par relationship dynamics with a positive spin, right? Your partner isn't rejecting you in x,y,z way ( not just sex, could be time together, conversation, decision making). They are merely doing what they want, and making their own choices!!!!!! It's alllll good!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


Oh wow, I never thought of it that way.

So for those in problematic relationships in which rejection ( @happiness27 only meaning that one spouse's initiation for intimacy was out right declined by the other) for intimacy is normal as opposed the rare exception, someone insisting that it can easily be rationalized and accepted by just perceiving it differently would be helping to enable subpar or emotionally abusive relationships. 

To me rejection and feeling rejected at any given time is what it is. If at times my wife did not think she was making me feel that way, I very well let her know. I have claimed that I am fully able to deal with that when I was hurt by it. However I was mostly concerned that what hurt the most was to feel myself caring less and less about her each time it happened. She responded by saying that she didn't think she could withstand one more argument over intimacy. We both knew we needed to work together as a team to stop hurting each other emotionally and have since made a great deal of improvements to our marriage. 

Perception, decisions, and consequences... @john117 is exactly right. One can change their perception and one can start making different decisions. However at the end of the day what really matters are the consequences. If someone feels rejected and you change perception and perhaps make a few different decisions and someone still feels rejected just the same... then essentially NOTHING has changed. Reality is you have to deal with consequences and measure success in trying to make changes to observing an improvement to the consequences of your decisions. And as @john117 mentioned it is also damn near impossible to understand to full consequences to our decisions until we are able to observe what really happened as a result. 

Thanks, 
Badsanta


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

My wife initiated sex with this statement last night as she was stepping into the shower, "I don't feel sexual at all tonight".

Where you go from that statement is the difference between our marriage and many others.

While in the shower, she suggested I setup the bedroom. (towels, lighting and music)

After showers, we got on the bed, smooched and caressed each other. That led to her grabbing my "junk". I asked her if she wanted that kind of stimulation or if she wanted me to continue caressing just her body. She wanted heavy petting as well. 

Eventually, she decided that she would like to wait for PiV until our next scheduled sex date (2 days later) to let the sensitivity of her "kitten" build up. She declined my offer to give her an O with the vibrator because she'd rather wait for the build up. 

SHe then told me to go put on a long sleeve button down shirt of mine that she loves, roll the sleeves up but don't button it up and come sit on the edge of the bed. She starts massaging my legs and chest, telling me how sexy I look and how she loves my cologne, etc etc An awesome hj ensues and you know the result of that . 

We go downstairs, eat dinner and cuddle on the couch while she continues to grab and hold my hand and to caress my shoulder/arm as she is next to me on the couch.

THE END

My wife has responsive desire. I finally figured out that she doesn't respond well to sexual pressure. She is forthright about her feelings when not feeling sexual because I allow her to be without fear of some sort of backlash. She escalates intimacy because she feels no pressure for PiV, she feels her feelings are respected, doesn't feel me withdraw any love or affection just because she was being honest and she is attracted to me. She gives herself a chance to get horny with heavy petting because she enjoys being pleasured and knows it doesn't have to escalate to PiV or an orgasm if she isn't feeling it. The shirt and cologne suggestions allow her to be mentally turned on and make me feel desired while also showing me that her head is "in the game" with me. I then receive an enthusiastic handjob that doesn't feel like pity sex and I feel real emotional intimacy. A bonus for her is she knows she can transition that handjob to full on sex at any time if she gets that feeling which she has done. 

This is how I get "rejected". It's taken a lot of open and honest communication to get here. I had to learn how to remove all pressure and allow her to be honest and open. She had to learn how to allow herself the opportunity to get in the mood and that sex was much more to me than an orgasm. We did it together and it has paid huge dividends. She truly loves me and wanted things to improve. I feel the same about her. That's the difference in our marriage vs many others IMO. 

YMMV but that's my story.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Sex is more like the detonator rather than the C4 plastique. Too many rejections and you start questioning the whole framework of the relationship. Case in point. In 2008 we were 100% to retire in Chicago magnificent mile area in a high rise. Then as the fireworks started the narrative changed. We stopped agreeing on anything. Anything. Conflict crept in and at that point no matter what it's too far gone. Was it the rejection? No, but without them I might still be in the fog. 

Sex is not the engine of the relationship. It's the check engine light. Those who think "live with it" should remember that...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Enter codependent enabling/rationalization of Poor Treatment *if taken too far*.


But this is the crux of the matter, isn't it? @happiness27 is talking about a good relationship, with optimum communication, where partners are able to tell each other what's wrong without fear of upsetting each other... if the relationship is not "mature" and open, it won't work...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

PigglyWiggly said:


> An awesome hj ensues and you know the result of that .



No, I don’t know the result! Don’t leave it on a cliffhanger like a cheap Dan Brown novel 

Yeah, similar here. I noticed women often say the exact opposite of what they want or what they need. (Had a thread about this a while ago). 

Though mine doesn’t like it if I ask what she wants.

What cologne do you use? Maybe that’s the secret ingredient...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> *No, I don’t know the result! Don’t leave it on a cliffhanger like a cheap Dan Brown novel*
> 
> Her hand cramped up, I fell asleep and fell over knocking myself unconscious. I am writing this from the hospital high on painkillers.
> 
> ...


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

PigglyWiggly said:


> My wife has responsive desire. I finally figured out that she doesn't respond well to sexual pressure.


Ugh, this. For 20 years we were well matched and sex was never an issue. And then the hormones left the building. Took a while to figure out our new normal, and it wasn't pretty for a while. She won't say no and I won't pressure or expect PiV, just some naked time and we'll see what happens (and something usually does). It's I say when, she says what.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

One spouse is in the mood. Being a little flirty. Being affectionate. Trying to show the other spouse that they would like some alone time. The other spouse picks up on it,

What does the other spouse do?

a. Stays up late avoiding going to bed
b. Picks a fight about something trivial to create distance
c. Goes to bed, but tells the other person they are tired, have headache, etc.
d. Tells their spouse they aren't feeling it right now, but suggests another time (morning, weekend, something, ....)
e. Goes to bed, doesn't initiate anything, but allows physical touch


In my house, often "a" happens. Sometimes "a" and "b". Sometimes just "c". Sometimes "b" and "c". Never "d". Sometimes (once or twice a month) "e".


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Rejection is a viewpoint. Choose it if you want.


Yeah, this is the spin I gave myself during my first sexless marriage. It felt good until I realized it was a lie when it happens regularly. If my husband and I have regular sex, one night he says "no" (either by word, action, or inaction), and then we bounce back....that isn't rejection. It's just a night off lol

If I go months longing for and starving for sex and every hint of interest on my end is met with stonewalling, deflecting, or no....yeah, that's rejection.

Lying to myself doesn't change what it is.

Kinda like saying "cancer is a viewpoint. Choose it if you must." No....I HAVE cancer. It's there, even if I ignore it.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

CharlieParker said:


> Ugh, this. For 20 years we were well matched and sex was never an issue. And then the hormones left the building. Took a while to figure out our new normal, and it wasn't pretty for a while. *She won't say no and I won't pressure or expect PiV, just some naked time and we'll see what happens (and something usually does).* It's I say when, she says what.


I wish I had understood this more earlier in our marriage but like you, I didn't need to know until the hormones started dropping. Still, it would have made me a better lover for her and caused a lot less frustration. Now, I see people repeating those same hard-headed mistakes with fingers in their ears. "Some men, you just can't reach"


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

SadSamIAm said:


> One spouse is in the mood. Being a little flirty. Being affectionate. Trying to show the other spouse that they would like some alone time. The other spouse picks up on it,
> 
> What does the other spouse do?
> 
> ...



Been there and experienced all of those. Historically (D) would happen and the rescheduled time would end up as (A), (B), (C). Or I would just get (D) on a loop. My wife is rather creative and came up with more ways to get out of intimacy:

f. Invite family/friends over and then go out shopping afterwards (coinciding with the time reschedule from a previous D)
g. Remind me about tax preparation and planning (to kill my mood)
h. Power (D) combo move in which my wife reschedules using my bad memory against me knowing good and well I will end up with a scheduling conflict and I have to be the one to cancel the following day (she even giggled admitting it to me).
i. Super quarantine. If I get the man flu, I would need to be free and clear of congestion for an extra two weeks at least. Then combo with (B) for not helping her around the house while I was sick.
j. Taco Tuesday. If we have plans for intimate time in the evening, my wife knows good and well that I overeat her tacos any day of the week and will be rendered useless. (she even giggled admitting this to me)
k. 
l.
m.
n.
...

OMG... I better stop as I just realized I am giving away all the top secret moves In Mrs Badsanta's Playbook to any LD spouse reading this.

OMG, now that book would be a best seller now wouldn't it! "101 Ways to Cleverly Reject Sex in Marriage!" 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

badsanta said:


> OMG, now that book would be a best seller now wouldn't it! "101 Ways to Cleverly Reject Sex in Marriage!"


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

PigglyWiggly said:


> My wife initiated sex with this statement last night as she was stepping into the shower, "I don't feel sexual at all tonight".
> 
> Where you go from that statement is the difference between our marriage and many others.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing. THIS is how a couple can work out solutions taking both people's sexual vibes into account. And what wonderful creativity you guys have!


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > Rejection is a viewpoint. Choose it if you want.
> ...


I used to beat myself up with rejection mode also - making myself feel bad and inadequate. Having lived a lot of years since then, I look back and realize it was never about my lacking - it was about us being incompatible as a couple completely. To be boldly honest, I often used pouting and crying as a weapon and manipulation to try and make him feel bad for "rejecting" me. I was much younger and that behavior was immature. Plus it didn't work. The bottom line is we were mismatched a number of ways. Sex was a symptom of that.

Since that old marriage, I've examined many times my own self esteem issues and worked to become internally more secure. Today, I know I have more to offer someone else the stronger I am personally. I have become much more other centered than self centered.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> The bottom line is we were mismatched a number of ways. Sex was a symptom of that.


This describes my first marriage as well.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


>


This one has always been my favorite:


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## StuckInLove (Jun 6, 2017)

Yep.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

These type posts are what make TAM a great place. 





CharlieParker said:


> Ugh, this. For 20 years we were well matched and sex was never an issue. And then the hormones left the building. Took a while to figure out our new normal, and it wasn't pretty for a while. She won't say no and I won't pressure or expect PiV, just some naked time and we'll see what happens (and something usually does). It's I say when, she says what.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Question for those here on TAM... we have all been there! Struggling to reconcile differences in libido, managing untimely hormonal urges, and being desperate to connect physically with a spouse only to be rejected when we try to initiate sexual intimacy.
> 
> So for those with a high libido, what would be your ideal way to be rejected for sex? Imagine if you had a complete say so in the matter, but limit the nature of what you would need to only things of a nonsexual nature... what would be the best way for your partner to convey to you that they are not receptive at that moment, but still make you feel loved and appreciated?
> 
> ...


Last week not long after having sex I wanted another round, she said she wasn't up for it. As a compromise she decided to give me oral sex till I finished in her mouth., which worked for me.

Normally though variations of "no" or "I don't feel like it" work for me. Sometimes she will offer another time, but it really isn't necessary. Usually in response I say something like "well you're missing out".

Straight up "no" works for me without caveat explanation or anything else. I usually get turned down once a week or once a fortnight. Though being turned down is fine, when I'm still doing it 4-6x a week and often more frequently through being together for 22+ years.

One thing for sure, I have no interest in cuddle time, massages or anything else of that ilk as an alternative to sharing sex.

On the other hand if I was turned down frequently, I would simply end my sexual relationship with her rather than put up with that kind of nonsense.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> Straight up "no" works for me without caveat explanation or anything else. I usually get turned down once a week or once a fortnight. Though being turned down is fine, when I'm still doing it 4-6x a week and often more frequently through being together for 22+ years.
> 
> One thing for sure, I have no interest in cuddle time, massages or anything else of that ilk as an alternative to sharing sex.
> 
> On the other hand if I was turned down frequently, I would simply end my sexual relationship with her rather than put up with that kind of nonsense.


Perhaps this is a good example of how being rejected is absolutely not a problem with the caveat as long as it does not happen frequently. 

For most a relationship of 22+ years, life can just be messy. Seasons for lovemaking can abruptly change as a result of medical issues, changing schedules, or emotional stress of something like being a caregiver for a combative family member in need of assisted living. 

In my personal opinion it is great to know that things are great when they are great, but more important to me is having the skills to overcome challenges as a team when the going gets tough. I'll admit I may have this opinion because I know I am far from perfect and that challenges in life seem to be what I was destined for. 

Did you hear the story about the married couple that was in an accident and both had the entire left sides of their bodies blown off? Doctor said they would both be all right. The husband while in recovery asked if he would still be able to have sex with his wife. The doctor smiled and said, "don't worry it looks like together that the two of you will be able to get off on the right foot!"

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Perhaps this is a good example of how being rejected is absolutely not a problem with the caveat as long as it does not happen frequently.
> 
> Cheers,
> Badsanta



He's having sex 4-6 times a week! Of course one rejection is not a problem... :laugh:


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I do think that couples with really long relationships who have worked through a lot of issues together successfully can speak to the many challenges that come up over the years. For me and my husband, we have gone through so much hell together where we have grown closer to each other intimately. There were times went one or the other of us threw down the gauntlet and, man, those were scary times. The main thing is that we never rang the bell, so to speak. We never gave up.

We learned so much about ourselves personally and as a couple by working at this. If we hadn't been able to talk through some really tough psychological stuff, we wouldn't have gotten at the root of some of the things that were holding us back. I know that some folks on here have kind of made fun of the idea of talking over sexual issues, but in practice, it works. Getting to the other side is the leap of faith that we had to take. 

At this juncture, we know for certain that my husband is facing some potentially devastating health news. What's ahead may be some truly scary times. If we had stayed on the surface all these years, and not become closer on a deep intimacy level, I don't know how we could face what we are facing now. The prospect of losing a spouse makes the idea of not getting sex several times a week a really tiny first world problem. 

I deeply love my husband - on a far greater level because of ALL of the reasons he is a good person. I will be there for him and I know he would also be there for me if roles were reversed. I'm glad we made the effort all these years and especially in recent years to have conversations that brought us deeper understanding of each other. So, conversations, while they may seem silly and uninteresting, are actually a valuable part of being a married couple.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> He's having sex 4-6 times a week! Of course one rejection is not a problem... :laugh:


Well now there was that one time:



S = Sex
M = Sex
T = Sex
W = Sex
T = No Sex
F = No Sex
S = No Sex

THE FOLLOWING WEEK:

S = No Sex?
M = No Sex huh double take?
T = No Sex OMG WTF!!!!!
W = Sex
T = Sex
F = Sex
S = Sex

...and even though it was just a minor technicality that still met the qualifications of four times a week, there were probably some rules that seriously got "laid" down after that happened!



Badsanta


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I do think that couples with really long relationships who have worked through a lot of issues together successfully can speak to the many challenges that come up over the years. For me and my husband, we have gone through so much hell together where we have grown closer to each other intimately. There were times went one or the other of us threw down the gauntlet and, man, those were scary times. The main thing is that we never rang the bell, so to speak. We never gave up.
> 
> We learned so much about ourselves personally and as a couple by working at this. If we hadn't been able to talk through some really tough psychological stuff, we wouldn't have gotten at the root of some of the things that were holding us back. I know that some folks on here have kind of made fun of the idea of talking over sexual issues, but in practice, it works. Getting to the other side is the leap of faith that we had to take.
> 
> ...


Many good topics and comments above.

First and foremost I and everyone here surely sends strength, encouragement, and prayers that whatever health issues you and H may be facing are healed, treatment I'd needed works wonderfully. 

There's one comment above where it seems you may not believe all here value good communication when it comes to sex, but most, if not all, do. Its only when communication is one sided, not reciprocated, and rinse/repeat for an interminable length of time the effort out of observing the facts, turns into a negative, preventing any forward movement for a couple. 

That commonly emotionally cripples the partner trying to talk about things and gives the other partner an eternal pass on being a fully involved life partner/teammate.

Hope things go well for you and hubby. My W and I have gone through big C and other scary circumstances. I can share there can be good outcomes even if it takes time.

Best,

RR


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Well now there was that one time:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That’s what we need: sex diaries 
What about a column with marks for enthusiasm and participation eagerness?  
Total up the marks at the end of each month and compare notes  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Total up the marks at the end of each month and compare notes


Here is mine for the next couple of decades (assuming I live that long): 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Gee, that was easy! >


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> That’s what we need: sex diaries
> What about a column with marks for enthusiasm and participation eagerness?
> Total up the marks at the end of each month and compare notes
> 
> ...


Been there done that. Excel actually and tracked a fair amount of qualitative and quantitative variables for a couple of years. Interesting results.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> Here is mine for the next couple of decades (assuming I live that long): 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
> 
> Gee, that was easy! >




Do the zeroes stand for PIV or anal? I guess O for PIV and 0 for anal (anal is tighter). W for boob job and Q for BJs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Been there done that. Excel actually and tracked a fair amount of qualitative and quantitative variables for a couple of years. Interesting results.




Did you forget to adjust results for ‘inflation’? (Ageing) 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Many good topics and comments above.
> 
> First and foremost I and everyone here surely sends strength, encouragement, and prayers that whatever health issues you and H may be facing are healed, treatment I'd needed works wonderfully.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree that one-sided communication cripples forward movement. 

There have been some comments that gave me the impression that when a woman (typically) wants conversation and a man feels that just going straight to sex to solve issues, the points being made by *some* here was "sex first, conversation will naturally follow." I guess it depends on both individuals.

It's absolutely correct that one-sided conversations are not helpful. If a woman will not speak up honestly and clearly, it leaves her partner guessing. That's FRUSTRATING. Same goes for if a man won't speak up but his partner is being open and conversing. 

In my relationship, my husband was not one to communicate. For a LOT of reasons. I was the one who saw communication as key to working things out between us. If I was so inclined to reveal the contents of those conversations and if it wouldn't create insanely long posts, I think it would be clearer why conversations worked for us. It was a two-way street but I really had to push for the two-way part. There was so much going on with him and with me that it took that communication to get to the heart of many matters for us.

I've said many times here that sexual problems and issues are symptoms of other problems and issues. Adult people are complex. They are effected not only by their own experiences but by social input, social perceptions and pressures.

That there are quite a few cartoons on here that show a man interested in focusing on sex and the woman focusing on avoiding sex illustrates one of the ways that a social message gets conveyed. That men want a lot of sex and women are the withholders of sex.

Women and men do need to understand each other from who they are as individuals and also socially. I think we owe it to ourselves to stop thinking in traditional ways of initiator/rejector and go beyond that. If the goal is to expand into a better sex life for both people, I think it would benefit everyone. 

A woman, for instance, needs a minimum of 20 minutes of willing foreplay in order to be physically ready for PIV. SHE is the one who defines what foreplay works for her at any given time. Like I've said, the difference is a guy is a toggle switch and she is a dimmer switch. This is the VERY BASIC of what a woman needs to be comfortable and willing PIV. Now, the foreplay can be in her head or it can be physical - but whatever it is she feels she needs, is what works best. 

A line from a movie one time was "What does it take for a woman to turn a man on?" 

"Show up."

I'm sure this isn't always the case - but for the sake of this discussion, let's say you're with your favorite partner and getting along and that's the norm response for the guy. 

For the woman, SHE controls what she's thinking and what turns her on. It is simply OVERALL and GENERALLY not the same as it is for a guy. 

This is something that came out of the conversations with me and my husband. Once we accepted this as the facts FOR US, we could go to the next part of the conversation, which was - what are the things that turn me on as a woman?

That's where it gets complicated from my husband's viewpoint. What works one time, doesn't work another time. What works for him, doesn't work for me. 

What he termed "rejection" was me trying to figure out how to shut down 137 windows in my brain and turn my attention to sex - whereas, it takes him only a few seconds to switch gears. It was easy for me to look at the daunting task of re-routing my thinking and say "Ugh, what's the use...it will take me too long to switch gears."

For us, we started finding ways to solve the problem by massages and back rubs or...making sure our pre-sex conversations didn't include any distracting elements.

I apologized to him for being so much trouble to have sex with. I told him that I'm envious that sex is so much easier for him than it is to me. I genuinely meant that. I felt bad about myself that I couldn't make myself get turned on more quickly. I told him there was nothing wrong with him in any way sexually, physically, etc., I just am a rather cerebral personality and it takes what it takes to get me to pay attention to having sex. I love sex, too but getting a sex mindset takes more for me than it does for him.

Where he would think "rejection" - I wouldn't be thinking rejection - my brain would tell me: "Oh, I'm too much trouble for him, he won't want to do all this stuff in order for my mind and body to be ready for sex, then it will hurt, then he'll be disappointed that I didn't orgasm and then we'll both just feel bad...why can't you just shut your brain off...did I leave the coffee maker on...did I put gas in the car for tomorrow...what time is that hair appointment on Thursday...did I floss...does my hair look okay...the sheets have a wrinkle right under the middle of my back...what are the dogs barking at...what if the phone rings..."

When I told him this stuff, his jaw just dropped open, like, "REALLY?!"


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I absolutely agree that one-sided communication cripples forward movement.
> ...
> 
> I apologized to him for being so much trouble to have sex with. I told him that I'm envious that sex is so much easier for him than it is to me. I genuinely meant that. I felt bad about myself that I couldn't make myself get turned on more quickly. I told him there was nothing wrong with him in any way sexually, physically, etc., I just am a rather cerebral personality and it takes what it takes to get me to pay attention to having sex. I love sex, too but getting a sex mindset takes more for me than it does for him.
> ...


I think what you describe above likely sounds normal to couples that have actually taken the time to be open honest and communicate with one another.

Once those points have been conveyed THEN the idea of what rejection was and will be in the future is something a spouse desiring intimacy will begin to see it for something different. It also gives a couple a better understanding of the progress of what and when things should happen for intimacy to work better. 

My wife opened up and explained a lot to me, but I honestly don't think she would have understood those things about herself unless we had been through some challenging times together. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

H27,

The issue here is that you are implicitly making a value judgment about the importance of sex relative to non-sexual activities and/or interactions.

In a relationship, there are only the needs and wants of the two participants, which should be considered equally important by default. You would not characterize the comparison between the preference for sex and for conversation mockery or frivolous if you saw the two desires as equally valid.

For example, if my ex didn't want to have sex, that's fine. But by the same token, if I don't want to watch her favorite TV show, go shopping with her, build her gazebo, etc she should happily accept that choice also.

But commonly, that doesn't happen. The LD spouse often asserts sex is a lesser need, unimportant, etc than non-sexual interaction. And then the LDs get resentful when the lack of sex impacts other areas of the relationship.

Also, results matter. You may have valid reasons for declining sex on a given occassion. But eventually I will say "there are too many excuses. You need to make it happen, even if that means letting other stuff lapse" if we are dealing with something that isn't truly urgent.

The reason you are getting such push back is your posts suggest strongly that sex is inferior to other pursuits and HD partners need to roll with not getting the sex they want.



happiness27 said:


> Fortunately, when I had the conversation with my husband about reframing the word "rejection" as, rather, me stating my preference, he didn't mock me and make fun of me by creating the above scenario.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"In a relationship, there are only the needs and wants of the two participants, which should be considered equally important by default. You would not characterize the comparison between the preference for sex and for conversation mockery or frivolous if you saw the two desires as equally valid."

Absolutely


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

DTO said:


> H27,
> 
> The issue here is that you are implicitly making a value judgment about the importance of sex relative to non-sexual activities and/or interactions.
> 
> ...


I'm not suggesting that sex is inferior to "other pursuits" - I'm suggesting that women have ways of becoming sexually excited that is different from men, thus my comparison: toggle switch/dimmer switch. My husband *gets* that. He knows I love sex, I just get turned on differently than he does. Knowing that really helps.

As for me having "valid reason for declining" - No is a no and I don't need a reason. 

If my spouse said to me "there are too many excuses. You need to make it happen, even if that means letting other stuff lapse" that would be the last conversation we would have. I would never allow someone to bully me into having sex - nor would I expect my spouse to be bullied into having sex. 

Partners don't need to roll with anything and I've never suggested that so you are interpreting what I've said incorrectly - which sometimes can happen when people are trying to communicate on a forum instead of face-to-face. 

If a man has sex as a priority in his life and he is not getting the amount or frequency of sex that he is requiring his monogamous partner, then he can choose to work with the partner to see what can be done or choose to leave the relationship - or find others to complain with.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Well now there was that one time:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Poor thing... I feel sorry for him... :laugh:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"If a man has sex as a priority in his life and he is not getting the amount or frequency of sex that he is requiring his monogamous partner, then he can choose to work with the partner to see what can be done or choose to leave the relationship - or find others to complain with."

Major rationalization hamster moment here...

How can he "work with the partner" if this was also written?

"If my spouse said to me "there are too many excuses. You need to make it happen, even if that means letting other stuff lapse" that would be the last conversation we would have. I would never allow someone to bully me into having sex - nor would I expect my spouse to be bullied into having sex. "

Just curious...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

john117 said:


> "If a man has sex as a priority in his life and he is not getting the amount or frequency of sex that he is requiring his monogamous partner, then he can choose to work with the partner to see what can be done or choose to leave the relationship - or find others to complain with."
> 
> Major rationalization hamster moment here...
> 
> ...


I've tried that wheel. It's a futile wheel.

Bottom line: no means no and too bad.

Its cognitive dissonance on steroids.

"Work with your partner who has the ultimate veto power and uses it repeatedly."


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> If my spouse said to me "there are too many excuses. You need to make it happen, even if that means letting other stuff lapse" that would be the last conversation we would have. I would never allow someone to bully me into having sex - nor would I expect my spouse to be bullied into having sex.


Maybe it’s just in phrasing but doesn’t the unhappy partner have an obligation to say “I won’t be able to go on (with the relationship) if the situation (unhappiness with the sex) continues as it has been”? Or is that bullying?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> "If a man has sex as a priority in his life and he is not getting the amount or frequency of sex that he is requiring his monogamous partner, then he can choose to work with the partner to see what can be done or choose to leave the relationship - or find others to complain with."
> 
> Major rationalization hamster moment here...
> 
> ...





CharlieParker said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > If my spouse said to me "there are too many excuses. You need to make it happen, even if that means letting other stuff lapse" that would be the last conversation we would have. I would never allow someone to bully me into having sex - nor would I expect my spouse to be bullied into having sex.
> ...


As I wrote just below what you quoted, yes, the unhappy partner has the option of leaving.

My husband and I call it "ring the bell" - if you want to quit, all you have to do is ring the bell.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

So the partner can complain, the refusing spouse can say "no" with feet up on the coffee table watching This Is Us, and the partner broken from constant rejection has the opportunity to be the bad guy who quit on the marriage.

Sounds like Gloria Steinem's dream lol


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> I've tried that wheel. It's a futile wheel.
> 
> Bottom line: no means no and too bad.
> 
> ...


Actually, it is what we psychologists (*) call "self preservation neuron deficiency"... That is, someone so focused on preserving the status quo that they will risk - and lose usually - everything in the process. The brain has neurons that look out for things like those ie don't jump into the lions den for a selfie type moments... But sex is a lot more complicated. 

As I'm going thru our asset list paperwork I can't help but shake my head into what she's giving up. 

But then, sex always does it. My former neighbors were a GQ good looking guy in his 40s and his model looking wife in her 30s. Successful businessman who sold his company and made tons, car racing driver, the works. So, he cheats on his wife with the live in nanny from Estonia who looked like the Michelin man, in turn she cheats with one of his mechanics. (DD1 and their older kid are friends). About the ugliest divorce ever results, they lose two businesses they owned together, he goes to jail for something (fraud?) And she works tables at Applebee's. No kidding. 

H27 isn't there of course, but many people here or their spouses are. 

(*) Only me actually


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> As I wrote just below what you quoted, yes, the unhappy partner has the option of leaving.
> 
> My husband and I call it "ring the bell" - if you want to quit, all you have to do is ring the bell.


I'm going thru the paperwork now and it's daunting. Trying to minimize legal fees  and do the legwork before the $300/hr guy buys another Jaguar from us... It's not quite as simple as ringing a bell unless you're Muslim and do an Islamic style divorce of times past... 

If you have kids it ain't remotely as easy.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> Actually, it is what we psychologists (*) call "self preservation neuron deficiency"... That is, someone so focused on preserving the status quo that they will risk - and lose usually - everything in the process. The brain has neurons that look out for things like those ie don't jump into the lions den for a selfie type moments... But sex is a lot more complicated.
> 
> As I'm going thru our asset list paperwork I can't help but shake my head into what she's giving up.
> 
> ...


Why would you assume that I haven't been through an ugly divorce? 1981, after three kids and nine years of a horrid marriage that was about several levels of incompatibility.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> I'm going thru the paperwork now and it's daunting. Trying to minimize legal fees  and do the legwork before the $300/hr guy buys another Jaguar from us... It's not quite as simple as ringing a bell unless you're Muslim and do an Islamic style divorce of times past...
> 
> If you have kids it ain't remotely as easy.


True that ringing the bell isn't easy. I didn't say it was easy. I said it was an option.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> So the partner can complain, the refusing spouse can say "no" with feet up on the coffee table watching This Is Us, and the partner broken from constant rejection has the opportunity to be the bad guy who quit on the marriage.
> 
> Sounds like Gloria Steinem's dream lol



Yep, this was my marriage. I complained, wasn't heard, still no (her right), got angry, I'm a bully, end of marriage. Fair enough...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> So the partner can complain, the refusing spouse can say "no" with feet up on the coffee table watching This Is Us, and the partner broken from constant rejection has the opportunity to be the bad guy who quit on the marriage.
> 
> Sounds like Gloria Steinem's dream lol


Did you feel like "the bad guy" for getting out of your marriage? 

I didn't. I gave that marriage nine years and really worked at it. I was a creative, hard-working wife and mother of three children with a husband who treated me like crap. The issues weren't *just* about sexual frequency or quality - that was a symptom of larger problems.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> Yep, this was my marriage. I complained, wasn't heard, still no (her right), got angry, I'm a bully, end of marriage. Fair enough...


Yes, and hopefully you moved on to something more compatible. This is better for both people.

It's a VERY hard choice to make and there is a lot of weighing of consequences of making any decision.

I do think that two people in a marriage have to have lot of love, commitment and willingness to work things out. If one of those things is missing, you have incompatibility that makes the marriage viability precarious.

In my marriage - my present marriage and the longest (28 years), we have had all three of those points in the forefront. Have we teetered and fought? OH, YEAH. Engaging with my partner - and him engaging with me - has been a lot of hard work. By saying this, I'm not implying that others here haven't also worked at their marriages. I'm just saying that my husband and I got through a lot of issues and yes, I feel damn lucky. I feel lucky every F-ing day for this man. He's a freakin' jewel.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> Yes, and hopefully you moved on to something more compatible. This is better for both people.


Absolutely. But after nearly 30 years really hurts. Especially when things seemed better. But she can't get past my past "angry period". I've come to accept it. We are just different people. And I do regret my behaviour. You do behave in a stupid way when you are exasperated... because you don't know what's going on and you can't get to the bottom of it. No excuse, though.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > So the partner can complain, the refusing spouse can say "no" with feet up on the coffee table watching This Is Us, and the partner broken from constant rejection has the opportunity to be the bad guy who quit on the marriage.
> ...


I am glad you have found a truth that helps you.

However, it is flawed to assume that truth is universal.

Sometimes sex IS the problem, not a symptom.

I am assuming you are unaware that you tend to sound dismissive about rejection. Because I'm sure if you were aware, you would alter your communication. Because it is clear communication is important to you.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> Absolutely. But after nearly 30 years really hurts. Especially when things seemed better. But she can't get past my past "angry period". I've come to accept it. We are just different people. And I do regret my behaviour. You do behave in a stupid way when you are exasperated... because you don't know what's going on and you can't get to the bottom of it. No excuse, though.


It hurts like hell to break with a significant other. 

And to not be able to get to "the bottom" of incompatibility issues is extremely frustrating. 

It's so freaking hard for two people to dig deep within themselves to work on issues. Hell, it's hard for ONE person to do that, let alone two people - separately, then together. 

If we think of a relationship between two people as THREE things, it's you, me and the relationship. It's a lot to work on. 

That's why I concluded at some point in my life that it takes love, commitment and willingness to work together to make a marriage work. I don't think any of us older folks really had much training on just exactly what's involved. We just threw ourselves into marriage on a wing and a prayer, damn the details.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> So the partner can complain, the refusing spouse can say "no" with feet up on the coffee table watching This Is Us, and the partner broken from constant rejection has the opportunity to be the bad guy who quit on the marriage.
> 
> Sounds like Gloria Steinem's dream lol


Amen girlfriend, amen. 
@happiness27, I am glad you and your husband work so well together and I am truly happy for you. 

Your thought process and philosophy work for you and I guess your husband, but as you can tell it would work for almost no one else. 

I am happy for you guys...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> Why would you assume that I haven't been through an ugly divorce? 1981, after three kids and nine years of a horrid marriage that was about several levels of incompatibility.


You mentioned "just ring the bell"...and now you allude it's not quite as easy as that.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> True that ringing the bell isn't easy. I didn't say it was easy. I said it was an option.


Casually telling people to "ring a bell" to get out conveys a degree of convenience that in most cases does not match reality. 

I wish it was this easy. And TBH it should be.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> You mentioned "just ring the bell"...and now you allude it's not quite as easy as that.


As I said in an earlier post: "True that ringing the bell isn't easy. I didn't say it was easy. I said it was an option."

If I said something is an option, that doesn't automatically translate to "easy option." 

It's an option. 

If you aren't happy in a marriage for any reason, one always has the option of ending the marriage. 

If the reason for unhappiness is sexual incompatibility, there are still other options besides divorce. I've talked about these here on TAM in many threads. One can argue against any of those other options as well.

I don't know what someone else is going to pick. That's up to them. 

I don't think my husband and I are the only married couple who have successfully worked things out. I don't know, maybe we are a rarity. But, I share on here because we have had success and I was trying to offer hopeful ideas to others.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> Casually telling people to "ring a bell" to get out conveys a degree of convenience that in most cases does not match reality.
> 
> I wish it was this easy. And TBH it should be.


You added "casually" - I did not say "casually ring the bell."

I'm married to a very hard-working, dedicated man with whom I share love on many levels. We have fought for our marriage, even when it was really tough, through 8 years of him working overseas in war zones, through the deaths of family members, through great times and very low times. We have fought over petty things and critical differences. But we have never given up even when we felt like it. I would never fault another couple for giving up because I know how really hard marriage can be. But I do want to be a voice for something positive that might be another way if that is possible.

My (former military) husband told me about never quitting and showed me a video:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> As I wrote just below what you quoted, yes, the unhappy partner has the option of leaving.
> 
> My husband and I call it "ring the bell" - if you want to quit, all you have to do is ring the bell.



I think I lost the plot with the thread and not sure anymore if you guys (and girls) are arguing semantics.

How does this philosophy apply IRL? If you are not getting sex, do you say anything? Or do you ‘ring the bell’? (Leave). 

I ring the bell (an actual bell) whenever I want to have sex. Sometimes I get smacked with the bell. Sometimes my wife likes me ringing it. Sometimes she wants me to place that bell around her neck, together with nipple clamps, so she can pretend to be a horny Swiss cow, in mild pain.
Isn’t it whatever works for whomever?

So you would never say to your husband: “hey, this thing you just said, makes me feel like  “. Instead, if it keeps happening and you can’t take it anymore, you leave? Why? Why not just sit down and talk to each other?

The trick is to just learn to interact with each other in a civilised way. There are no tricks or shortcuts. It really is just that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I think I lost the plot with the thread and not sure anymore if you guys (and girls) are arguing semantics.
> 
> How does this philosophy apply IRL? If you are not getting sex, do you say anything? Or do you ‘ring the bell’? (Leave).
> 
> ...


Totally AGREE! I'm not sure how much time folks have to read the entire thread of posts - but I have said this several times in several posts...about having communications.

It was my first marriage where the interaction in a civilized way didn't work. I got married to him when I was 19 and he was 31. It was 9 years of him reminding me at every turn that I was inadequate in whatever way he chose to pick on that particular time. He didn't like the food I cooked, I didn't know anything, he didn't like the books I read, I couldn't clean a bathroom "right" (military style), I bled when I had my period, I was incapable of working outside the home (he didn't want me to work), he hated all the people we tried to make friends with - on and on. It was a very abusive relationship in the 70s. He didn't want to talk anything through. I tried - nine years of trying.

So, in THAT relationship, sex was the symptom of problems.

In relationships where there is mutual love, respect, commitment and willingness to talk through issues and go to therapy as needed, I think there's a much higher potential for success. At least that's been my experience.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It’s better for the kids that it’s hard.




john117 said:


> Casually telling people to "ring a bell" to get out conveys a degree of convenience that in most cases does not match reality.
> 
> I wish it was this easy. And TBH it should be.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

H27:

I am a huge fan of HOTYN.

I tend to agree with most of the things you say regarding sexual frequency and... accepting...the word "no" (no strike through options on Tapatalk for the word "rejection" ).

I find it utterly amazing your emphasis on the importance of communication when you have spent this entire thread doing a tremendous job of seeking to be understood, yet not really seeking to understand.

I think we could find much to agree on if you are okay with (rightfully) refusing when it suits you as much as accepting he is able to do the same thing regarding what is important to you.

Or, to quote Maya Angelou:

"Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option."

This ties into my last point. We are all indeed responsible for our own feelings. That said, how I feel about how my wife is treating me directly impacts how I feel about her beloved acts of service, need for affection, etc. 

Therefore, it would behoove you to not just say or think, "Your feelings are yours to own", but rather, "Help me understand why you feel this way and what I can do to help."





Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> H27:
> 
> I am a huge fan of HOTYN.
> 
> ...


My husband and I don't keep score on who does more for the other (re: "how I feel about how my wife is treating me directly impacts how I feel about her beloved acts of service, need for affection, etc.").

"Therefore, it would behoove you to not just say or think, "Your feelings are yours to own", but rather, "Help me understand why you feel this way and what I can do to help."

What makes you think I don't phrase things like that or that HE doesn't phrase things like that to me? I haven't said that I say to him: "Your feelings are yours to own" - the THERAPISTS have taught BOTH of us that. 

I've actually said the second, so...hmmm.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> H27:
> I find it utterly amazing your emphasis on the importance of communication when you have spent this entire thread doing a tremendous job of seeking to be understood, yet not really seeking to understand.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


What you like for me to understand?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> What you like for me to understand?


That human nature generally takes over good intentions in a hurry. Without keeping score, 50-50 becomes 95-5 in a hurry.

There used to be a very prolific poster in TAM that had an interesting, frighteningly unbalanced and yet successful marriage. Yet she had a difficult time understanding that her power dynamics weren't remotely applicable to most common mortals.

We own our feelings. True. Even I remember that. But we also own the actions stemming from those feelings. And if our partners have any contribution to our feelings being what they are, they're accomplices.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > What you like for me to understand?
> ...




What I've said is that I have learned in my life that I have the option to choose how I react.

Other people don't "make me feel".

I have learned that I have choices on how to react. Sometimes I chose well, other times not. I also can observe my feelings that come up and look at those feelings and link them to origins. 

In my circle of beliefs, these are called "old tapes." 

I got tired of reacting in tired old ways. I wanted a better life. I'm just sharing that concept as a way of addressing the topic of this thread.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

It’s just a difference of emphasis. I think there’s nothing wrong with it if it helps someone getting ‘unstuck’ from their old ways. 
Maybe H27 was more impulsive in behaviour in her previous marriages and this way of thinking helps her not blow a fuse as soon as she feels it coming on.
Sometimes it’s a good idea to stop everything, count to 10 and take a deep breath, rather than attack back. And you can actually only do that once you realise that your reaction is on you (to a large extent, it’s not black and white).
It’s basically about self control. Not many people can master it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

"Don't waste your time or time will waste you" Muse


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

There's a book I read 30 years ago called "Dance of Anger." It addresses ways that couples - any relationships - can become unstuck from patterns that repeatedly leave couples with unresolved, repeating conflicts.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> There's a book I read 30 years ago called "Dance of Anger." It addresses ways that couples - any relationships - can become unstuck from patterns that repeatedly leave couples with unresolved, repeating conflicts.


Self help books are usually about as helpful as the example problems in a probability theory textbook. They give you some insights but you generally can't find the answer without a lot of other things. You can relate to the examples, but up to a point. After that you're on your own.

Books are useful to the extent they may make the partners work towards a solution...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> Self help books are usually about as helpful as the example problems in a probability theory textbook. They give you some insights but you generally can't find the answer without a lot of other things. You can relate to the examples, but up to a point. After that you're on your own.
> 
> Books are useful to the extent they may make the partners work towards a solution...


H.O.T.Y.N seems to be a popularly recommended book here on TAM. I think the information in them depends on how receptive and open-minded is the person reading it. I met Harriet Lerner 30 years ago when we were doing a story on her and the book "Dance of Anger" when it first came out. She spent a couple of decades on the staff of the Menninger Clinic, as a psychotherapist and is a long-time relationship expert. Best of all, though, her books are really easy, interesting reads with basic insights than will quickly improve communication. Really, nothing remotely like a probability theory textbook.

Fortunately, the marriage counselor we worked with for a couple of years was keen to supplement our sessions with various suggested readings and exercises. So, I think there quite a bit of support from the marital counseling field for reading supplemental material. 

I am very solution driven. Life is more interesting and fun when it's moving forward than when I'm spinning my wheels, getting no where. My life and relationship has been vastly improved from therapy and those willing to shine a light on the path to navigating marriage and SO relationships.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The improvement is usually from therapy and willingness to work thru issues with one's partner, not the book tho. I've read the usual books suggested on Tam and they're for the most part applicable to a very narrow range of issues or situations. 

There's a reason behavioral and clinical psychology pays a lot more than cognitive & experimental or organizational psychology .

The critical factor is realizing there's a problem, and deciding to be a part of the solution. Guilt tripping one into action this rarely the answer (MMSLP for example). I'll read the holding on book just to make sure it doesn't contain the secret maps of Piri Reis or something...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> The improvement is usually from therapy and willingness to work thru issues with one's partner, not the book tho. I've read the usual books suggested on Tam and they're for the most part applicable to a very narrow range of issues or situations.
> 
> There's a reason behavioral and clinical psychology pays a lot more than cognitive & experimental or organizational psychology .
> 
> The critical factor is realizing there's a problem, and deciding to be a part of the solution. Guilt tripping one into action this rarely the answer (MMSLP for example). I'll read the holding on book just to make sure it doesn't contain the secret maps of Piri Reis or something...


I haven't read any statistics about what percentage of help comes from reading vs. therapy but, as I said, it depends on the individuals and how open-minded they are - and how they learn and receive information. Some people are very interested in self-evolving and enthusiastically pursue it on many levels. Others are harder nuts to crack, really digging in their heels hanging on to their personal beliefs and not really wanting to move off of their own familiar path and thinking.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Not responding to anyone here in particular as some in this thread have gone off on tangents...

One thought I just had is about what the aspect of rejection looks and feels like for the LD spouse. Obviously one does not have to deal with rejection when the other spouse is initiating on a regular basis. *So what happens in the moments where an LD spouse might actually be in the mood and wants to initiate intimacy?*



Perhaps the LD spouse never initiates out of their own fears of rejection.
Perhaps the LD spouse fears initiating will rebalance who is in control.
Perhaps the LD spouse does not have the courage to ask for what they want.
Perhaps the LD spouse worries that initiating might increase frequency beyond what can be enjoyed in the near future
... and so on.

I've read so many threads on TAM where an HD spouse makes claims that if the LD spouse had to put forth an effort to initiate intimacy and do all the foreplay needed to make the HD respond rather slowly from zero arousal... well that such a thing is impossible and that it would NEVER EVER happen! I mean obviously that would be an HD spouse's dream come true, but everyone in that boat knows very well who has to do all the paddling and that if the other spouse were handed the paddle that it would be interesting for sure.

So think about that from the LD spouse's perspective for a moment. I bet there is a huge fear of rejection because of how the balance between an HD/LD mismatch works. One spouse becomes an expert at dealing with rejection and is often willing to try all sorts different things. The other just enjoys their spouse trying lots of different things until eventually something works.

It is like the proverbial dinner date discussion. Where do you want to go..., oh it does not matter. How about here...., NO, definitely not that! (infinite loop and then forever later) OH! Now that sounds like a good idea! ...Imagine that conversation the other way around? ....yep, never gonna happen! The best I can do is hand my wife the keys and agree to that everywhere is good. As for the moments I take initiative and pick a dining destination without telling her, she gets upset and demands to know my plans. Once we get somewhere she demands to know what I am ordering (because she likes to steal food off my plate) and then she orders something different for herself that creates a variety of food for her. If she is unsure of a dish but it seems interesting, she will have me order it first and then make me swap dishes it if it turns out to be really good. ...in all fairness when her food is really good, she always insists I try a bite and and then offers to share half. It can be tedious, but we do end up eating at some exciting new places and meals that I would have never tried otherwise! 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Not responding to anyone here in particular as some in this thread have gone off on tangents...
> 
> One thought I just had is about what the aspect of rejection looks and feels like for the LD spouse. Obviously one does not have to deal with rejection when the other spouse is initiating on a regular basis. *So what happens in the moments where an LD spouse might actually be in the mood and wants to initiate intimacy?*
> 
> ...


Just to throw in something that my husband and I have tried:

I purchased at a sex shop one of those porn pussies so that I could show and demonstrate to my husband what feels good during cunnilingus. (uh, that turned out to be wildly fun to do...leave that to your imagination. I'm heterosexual, BTW, so I could only show and demonstrate to him what felt good to ME). But, seriously, I did it because I appreciated that my husband isn't a woman, obviously, and no woman had ever bothered to explain fully to him what places and methods are erotic for a woman. Does this sound too detailed for a wife to do? My intention was to share and be really open with him.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

It seems an LD spouse would only have to say hey let's go fool around.

Although part of me thinks that's a simplistic view.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Just to throw in something that my husband and I have tried:
> 
> I purchased at a sex shop one of those porn pussies so that I could show and demonstrate to my husband what feels good during cunnilingus. (uh, that turned out to be wildly fun to do...leave that to your imagination. I'm heterosexual, BTW, so I could only show and demonstrate to him what felt good to ME). But, seriously, I did it because I appreciated that my husband isn't a woman, obviously, and no woman had ever bothered to explain fully to him what places and methods are erotic for a woman. Does this sound too detailed for a wife to do? My intention was to share and be really open with him.


Great approach.

Not likely to work for us though. First of all, my wife's not enamored with the idea of cunnilingus. Second, when she's been willing to give it a go, I don't think she has any real idea what would feel good to her and I've had to navigate these uncharted waters without assistance until I got lucky and did the right thing. But even that changes with time. Third, she's positively homophobic (not with regard to equal treatment and respect; only with regard to the actual act) so she could never bring herself to demonstrate.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I'm heterosexual BTW



Has this changed after this experience?
It’s a good idea though. I hope it wasn’t a returned item....



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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Has this changed after this experience?
> It’s a good idea though. I hope it wasn’t a returned item....
> 
> 
> ...


haha, no - and no.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Great approach.
> 
> Not likely to work for us though. First of all, my wife's not enamored with the idea of cunnilingus. Second, when she's been willing to give it a go, I don't think she has any real idea what would feel good to her and I've had to navigate these uncharted waters without assistance until I got lucky and did the right thing. But even that changes with time. Third, she's positively homophobic (not with regard to equal treatment and respect; only with regard to the actual act) so she could never bring herself to demonstrate.


Oh, I certainly wasn't suggesting you try it - I was, rather, asking if that sounded like too weird of an idea that I did that. I mean, it seemed easier to explain things this way and it ended up actually being rather fun. Visual aid, as it was. I could point to this area or that area, etc.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Oh, I certainly wasn't suggesting you try it - I was, rather, asking if that sounded like too weird of an idea that I did that. I mean, it seemed easier to explain things this way and it ended up actually being rather fun. Visual aid, as it was. I could point to this area or that area, etc.


No worries. I didn't take it as a suggestion. Just sharing how some things work for some and not for others. 

My main point was that it seemed like a good approach; both practical and fun. Not at all too weird in my mind.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Just to throw in something that my husband and I have tried:
> 
> I purchased at a sex shop one of those porn pussies so that I could show and demonstrate to my husband what feels good...


That type of communication is indeed an extraordinary thing. Would it have worked out the same if your husband had made the same purchase and asked you to demonstrate with it? 

My guess is that type of communication and the willingness to share it has to come from within. For those in problematic relationships where one partner asks if there is a way to improve things, such a request may be perceived as rather negatively because it may make the other person having trouble to feel inadequate. 

I've read countless threads where a motivated spouse complains that their partner will never communicate what they need or like in order to improve intimacy. There are some that their spouses claim to have no fantasies nor any form of desire for anything in particular. Imagine if you would where one spouse comes across as asexual without any inherent desire or motivation to make things improve. They even might claim if the marriage were to end that there would never be a need to find another partner or the need for sex ever again. 

Yet for many here that situation it is somehow manageable. Sometimes with success and meaningful improvements to physical intimacy in the marriage. 

So if I were in that situation and needed ask my wife to demonstrate something similar to me, it would have to be done in a very natural context without having purchased anything at a sex shop. Instead of asking for what she likes or feels good, I may have to ask by saying, "show me what makes you feel uncomfortable when I try so that I at least know what not to do?" Then I might ask her to demonstrate by touching my hand with her hand, or by us taking turns kissing each other on the lips during a learning process. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Has this changed after this experience?
> It’s a good idea though. I hope it wasn’t a returned item....
> 
> 
> ...


Oh that's hilarious!!!😊😊😊


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Great approach.
> 
> Not likely to work for us though. First of all, my wife's not enamored with the idea of cunnilingus. Second, when she's been willing to give it a go, I don't think she has any real idea what would feel good to her and I've had to navigate these uncharted waters without assistance until I got lucky and did the right thing. But even that changes with time. Third, she's positively homophobic (not with regard to equal treatment and respect; only with regard to the actual act) so she could never bring herself to demonstrate.


Is it okay if I just sort of ramble? 

I think it was more a thing where I would point and let HIM explore and I would say, okay, here and here and linger here, before going here, etc. 

I get what you're saying, though. I'm not into women - but having tried the hit and miss thing for quite a while where he would explore and I would say yea or nay...then, it seemed logical to get something tactile up in front of us. I do think it was a rather edgy thing to do - but I'm with your wife on this, cunnilingus isn't something I was really into that much. But I think it was because of several factors, after I thought about it. What I discovered was that it was because it was difficult, even a bit embarrassing to speak up about it. I mean, it kind of takes the heat out of the act if you say "Here, not here, more there, okay, don't stop, okay not there YET..." etc. I don't want to criticize - and I'm not TRYING to criticize but, jeez, if your guy became more attuned and familiar with what works for you, then, it could be really fun. I HAD to become more vocal or it was just going to be this constant hit and miss act.

I don't know. There's a lot to this kind of conversation. Not the least of which is that, frankly, I would never perform cunnilingus so I can't imagine why a guy would even want to do that. So, I have some embarrassed feelings about it. Perhaps I SHOULDN'T be embarrassed but that's where my brain goes. Poor guy is getting his face all wet and my brain is, like, EWWWWW, why would he want to do that. Is he enjoying it at all? Since I wouldn't enjoy that, then I can't relate to how HE would enjoy that. I need to hear from him details of his erotic experience and probably so I can tamp down my own negativity and embarrassment. 

So, with that window into my thinking, cut to - what do guys think?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> > Great approach.
> ...


Random comment from a bisexual woman...but eating ***** is like indulging in the best desert you’ve ever had. It not only tastes amazing (shower fresh of course) but the act of doing it kind of makes you high. Which I attribute to the incredible power of pheromones and just plain old Venus magic.

In case that helps you at all.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> That type of communication is indeed an extraordinary thing. Would it have worked out the same if your husband had made the same purchase and asked you to demonstrate with it?
> 
> My guess is that type of communication and the willingness to share it has to come from within. For those in problematic relationships where one partner asks if there is a way to improve things, such a request may be perceived as rather negatively because it may make the other person having trouble to feel inadequate.
> 
> ...



Good question (what if my husband had made the same purchase?)

Actually, I've really made a huge effort on learning fellatio. I've watched videos (the women were using props), read books, even read a book by a gay guy about helping straight women understand what turns a man on and performing fellatio. In addition, I check in with my husband during and in other conversations outside the bedroom. "Do you like this? What feels good?" etc.

There have been occasions where I focused completely on just very erotic fellatio - very teasing, slow, erotic, and making him wait and erotic talking while performing fellatio - creating erotic experiences that I make up as I go along.

Experimentation that stems from the imagination of the couple is an amazingly loving and powerful way for a couple to express their love for each other sexually. I used the visual aid because I wanted to be as open and communicative as possible. Frankly, it really did help. How many guys out there can say they really understand the vastness of erotic touch that a woman is capable of experiencing? I wonder if even women fully realize what they are capable of.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Random comment from a bisexual woman...but eating ***** is like indulging in the best desert you’ve ever had. It not only tastes amazing (shower fresh of course) but the act of doing it kind of makes you high. Which I attribute to the incredible power of pheromones and just plain old Venus magic.
> 
> In case that helps you at all.



!!!!!!!!!!!! AWESOME! Appreciate the input.

If my husband described eat ***** as "indulging in the best desert you’ve ever had" I would just be so relieved and tearful. I need to hear counter comments to my own thinking that my own body and what changes it makes during the sex act are, well, gross. I don't know why I would think that...since I don't think what happens with him is gross.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Is it okay if I just sort of ramble?
> 
> I think it was more a thing where I would point and let HIM explore and I would say, okay, here and here and linger here, before going here, etc.
> 
> ...


For just a "ramble," that was a very thoughtful and coherent post. 
Thank you.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Another poster mentioned having to close 130+ windows before sex can happen. I agree with this whole-heartedly and would add the windows reopen right after orgasm. No cuddle... wipe off and get dressed so we can go to Target. Only she knows when we’re having sex.

In Esther Perel’s book Mating in Captivity there is a discussion about turning on and turning off. Guys commonly think “what do I need to do turn her on?” She turns this on its head and asks women to ask themselves “how do I turn myself off?”

I turn myself off by or when I....

Could be Pinterest, the laundry, signing kids up for soccer, self esteem problems from social media, dragging kid(s) into bed with us, or zoning out on an iPad (BTW glad to know I’m not the only victim of my gift).

A man can be a servant-leader or a NMMNG/MMSLP 180- guy it’s somewhat irrelevant.

So bottom line men need to understand her need to unload and support that while women need to be upfront and acknowledge that yes “I turn myself off when I...”

A woman may spend 95% of her energy trying to be super mom/employee/volunteer/girl friend/daughter/wife etc and it’s exhausting. The last 5% is unlikely gonna be voluntarily assigned to her being super sexy wife it’s going to “her time.”

Most women compete against each other. Before marriage they compete for husbands. Once they got you...that energy is redirected back to competing... best mom, best interior decorator, best dresser, best kids, most in shape, etc.

After 16 years of marriage I’ve realized you can’t fight it and it’s even tougher if there are other emotional/esteem/health issues. Unless you wanna leave.. you get what you get.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Good question (what if my husband had made the same purchase?)
> 
> Actually, I've really made a huge effort on learning fellatio. I've watched videos (the women were using props), read books, even read a book by a gay guy about helping straight women understand what turns a man on and performing fellatio. In addition, I check in with my husband during and in other conversations outside the bedroom. "Do you like this? What feels good?" etc.
> 
> ...


The bolded is oh, so very true. 

Repression is the enemy of this. Unfortunately there are so many elements of society and life that lead to sexual repression in so very many people. It's really quite maddening.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

aaarghdub said:


> Another poster mentioned having to close 130+ windows before sex can happen. I agree with this whole-heartedly and would add the windows reopen right after orgasm. No cuddle... wipe off and get dressed so we can go to Target. Only she knows when we’re having sex.
> 
> In Esther Perel’s book Mating in Captivity there is a discussion about turning on and turning off. Guys commonly think “what do I need to do turn her on?” She turns this on its head and asks women to ask themselves “how do I turn myself off?”
> 
> ...


Wow. Mind blown. This is the kind of stuff I always hope to get out of discussions. I'm going to take a look at this. Thanks for sharing.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The bolded is oh, so very true.
> 
> Repression is the enemy of this. Unfortunately there are so many elements of society and life that lead to sexual repression in so very many people. It's really quite maddening.


Yes, to address the bolded part...I've found that when I operate from within my own imagination and feelings, I am truly authentically connected with my partner. 

I say that because there have been times we would try things that were porno style things and I found myself play-acting. So, if you catch my drift, I wasn't really *there* with my partner - I was trying to play a role. It's okay for the moment, but it ended up being rather empty afterwards. 

I had a therapist challenge me on this type of playacting and we talked about why I might be doing that. For me, it had to do with emotionally disconnecting from sex - not an unusual tactic given my history. 

It's very risky sometimes to open up and let yourself love someone and, for some people, even riskier to be loved in return.

There's only one letter difference between "scared" and "scarred"


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Yes, to address the bolded part...I've found that when I operate from within my own imagination and feelings, I am truly authentically connected with my partner.
> 
> I say that because there have been times we would try things that were porno style things and I found myself play-acting. So, if you catch my drift, I wasn't really *there* with my partner - I was trying to play a role. It's okay for the moment, but it ended up being rather empty afterwards.
> 
> ...


Marvelous post. 
It also strikes me that there is only two letters reversed, and little practical distance between "scared" and "sacred," which is what I think a truly connected relation ship is.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, to address the bolded part...I've found that when I operate from within my own imagination and feelings, I am truly authentically connected with my partner.
> ...


Nice. 🙂


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

So - I’m gonna preface this with: 

There is a pretty small DMZ separating conflict and combat, where sex is concerned. So if you aren’t good at conflict, best not to do this. And as a man, carrying round a significant testosterone payload, the difference between the two is captured by a single word: anger. If you aren’t angry, it’s probably conflict. If angry, almost certainly combat. Combat over sex is a certain fail. Conflict over sex, might not be.

This whole notion of 130 windows - I think it’s a great analogy. I do. 

Thing is, there actually are a few windows related to YOU, the guy she married. And if you are a good provider, companion and you aren’t bad in bed, those windows matter a lot. The window list below is absolutely true for MY woman, obviously your mileage may vary. The big bright windows for M2 ALL have to do with control. 
1. Am I worrying that he might be looking for/having an affair
2. When I ask him to do internal (non social) stuff does he happily do it, grudgingly do it, agree to do it and then not do it, or flat out refuse
3. Does he allow me to manage the marital optics in a positive manner?
- Church
- Friend and family visits
- Etc.
4. Management of Valentines day/birthdays/etc...

This one guy, his wife had completely weaponized sex. For a long time. Of course, she did a lot of mate guarding when they socialized because at some level she realized how destructive this was. And one day he says, you need to stop touching me in public. And I’m done pretending we have a happy marriage. When people ask how we are doing, I’m going to tell them that I’m an unhappy man in a sexless marriage and don’t know what’s going to happen. 

She flat didn’t believe him. 

Then he proceeded to do just that. He would freeze and look super uncomfortable when she touched him in public. And he outed her to all their friends and family. 

So she tried to negotiate an increase in frequency while maintaining a weaponized posture. Kind of a: we can do it more, but I have absolute say over .... 

And he just said: No thanks. If you want to work this out, let me know, if not that’s ok too. By now she’s getting all kinds of pressure. All those OTHER windows, people asking her if everything is ok. Thing is, you can’t claim everything is ok, when your H is telling all your friends and family that he is very unhappy with you as a wife. That’s WMD stuff in the world of social competition. 

So finally she comes to him and asks: what do you want?

And he tells her. I want xyz. I will tolerate xyz/2. But one thing is certain. Don’t start down this path unless you’re committed. Because a start/stop at this point will likely be fatal to the marriage.






aaarghdub said:


> Another poster mentioned having to close 130+ windows before sex can happen. I agree with this whole-heartedly and would add the windows reopen right after orgasm. No cuddle... wipe off and get dressed so we can go to Target. Only she knows when we’re having sex.
> 
> In Esther Perel’s book Mating in Captivity there is a discussion about turning on and turning off. Guys commonly think “what do I need to do turn her on?” She turns this on its head and asks women to ask themselves “how do I turn myself off?”
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This type stuff is priceless.

In the eye doctors office they refract you. They say better 1 or better 2 while showing you two different refractions.

Works well in bed too. 





happiness27 said:


> Just to throw in something that my husband and I have tried:
> 
> I purchased at a sex shop one of those porn pussies so that I could show and demonstrate to my husband what feels good during cunnilingus. (uh, that turned out to be wildly fun to do...leave that to your imagination. I'm heterosexual, BTW, so I could only show and demonstrate to him what felt good to ME). But, seriously, I did it because I appreciated that my husband isn't a woman, obviously, and no woman had ever bothered to explain fully to him what places and methods are erotic for a woman. Does this sound too detailed for a wife to do? My intention was to share and be really open with him.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Is it okay if I just sort of ramble?
> 
> I think it was more a thing where I would point and let HIM explore and I would say, okay, here and here and linger here, before going here, etc.
> 
> ...



One of my favourite things to do (as probably any/most guys will say). But you are right, it helps IMMENSELY if you can bring yourself to speak up and give some pointers to help. Sometimes we can’t read your minds even if we try...
The main problem with guys I suspect is that they go for it like a child that has just discovered the taste of chocolate  (too fast/too quick/too much, too soon).
Whereas you have to approach the whole thing like homeopathy at first, until the end. If you don’t build it up well enough, then even the maximum pressure and speed of tongue will not be enough and then the whole thing falls apart. (I don’t mean to sound like some kind of expert in this; I’m sure many guys are better at it, I just know - more or less - what works, or doesn’t, for wife).

But it’s interesting, having a ‘model vajayjay’ to practice on...

Maybe a real life model would work better, like in those MILF ‘documentaries’? 
Whenever I have different ideas and need to communicate certain pointers to do with BJs, I tend to bring out my 9-ich friend Alejuandro from behind the door, so that my wife can practice on his **** what to do until she gets really good at it 
(No, last para was not serious. Alejuandro’s member is only 8 inches....)


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

@happiness27

Have him learn oral sex well. It's super ok, no reason whatsoever to think any negative thoughts about that part of your body at all.

W and really enjoy it and it only gets better as he learns your body and what's best during the experience. 

I could draw a scale drawing blindfolded of dear W, and what's the best areas during start, build up, finish. Also as strange as this sounds, when to to certain things clockwise then counterclockwise, I can tell the differences in responses. 

And practice is always fun!!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Good question (what if my husband had made the same purchase?)
> 
> Actually, I've really made a huge effort...


That seems like an extraordinarily heathy attitude. For some they are too shy or perhaps have issues with various forms of sexual disgust to be open about things and communicate effectively. 

Badsanta


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> So - I’m gonna preface this with:
> 
> There is a pretty small DMZ separating conflict and combat, where sex is concerned. So if you aren’t good at conflict, best not to do this. And as a man, carrying round a significant testosterone payload, the difference between the two is captured by a single word: anger. If you aren’t angry, it’s probably conflict. If angry, almost certainly combat. Combat over sex is a certain fail. Conflict over sex, might not be.
> 
> ...


The level of dysfunction you have described here is pretty high.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Prime,
The folks who study toxins have a saying. The dose makes the poison

Radio station had a water drinking contest. Only did it once though - what with the winner dying and all. 

Pacing is like that, get it wrong and nothing else matters. 

Not sure how this works for others, but for us, for both of us, pacing is HIGHLY asymmetric. A little too slow, even a medium amount too slow - is fine. Too fast is bad. And way too fast is a train wreck. 





inmyprime said:


> One of my favourite things to do (as probably any/most guys will say). But you are right, it helps IMMENSELY if you can bring yourself to speak up and give some pointers to help. Sometimes we can’t read your minds even if we try...
> The main problem with guys I suspect is that they go for it like a child that has just discovered the taste of chocolate  (too fast/too quick/too much, too soon).
> Whereas you have to approach the whole thing like homeopathy at first, until the end. If you don’t build it up well enough, then even the maximum pressure and speed of tongue will not be enough and then the whole thing falls apart. (I don’t mean to sound like some kind of expert in this; I’m sure many guys are better at it, I just know - more or less - what works, or doesn’t, for wife).
> 
> ...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

aaarghdub said:


> Another poster mentioned having to close 130+ windows before sex can happen. I agree with this whole-heartedly and would add the windows reopen right after orgasm. No cuddle... wipe off and get dressed so we can go to Target. Only she knows when we’re having sex.
> 
> In Esther Perel’s book Mating in Captivity there is a discussion about turning on and turning off. Guys commonly think “what do I need to do turn her on?” She turns this on its head and asks women to ask themselves “how do I turn myself off?”
> 
> ...


I know that a LOT of women think like this. I don't disparage them, I just never dated them and will not, which is good because they are mostly married but not all. 

What I tell young people all the time, is the following...


If your marriage is OK, sexually, emotional, and every other way, your kids will be fine. The marriage is what need tending, not the kids, a happy healthy marriage is what help the kids growing up. Mom and Dad working together with out resentment. 

And if you demonstrate, through your relationship that your wife, husband and that relationship comes first, and is strong. The kids will see and respect that. 

May sound corny but it is true...​
Kids really do not need to be the center of attention anyway.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H27,

Earlier you mention that, women only orgasm 33% of the time. Regardless of precision, the key theme is valid. Men come almost 100% of the time. So full stop - there is a big disparity on the rapture. 

So - if I told you a story where the wife had been pretending to orgasm and she stopped pretending, I’m pretty sure you would have asked: what happened next?

The guy - in the story above - he just stopped pretending. And he actively obstructed his wife from pretending. 

Why is that dysfunctional? 






happiness27 said:


> The level of dysfunction you have described here is pretty high.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> H27,
> 
> Earlier you mention that, women only orgasm 33% of the time. Regardless of precision, the key theme is valid. Men come almost 100% of the time. So full stop - there is a big disparity on the rapture.
> 
> ...


You've asked 2 questions here I'll address separately.

The woman who stops pretending works on herself to address that - in whatever way brings her an acceptance or works with her husband and perhaps even a therapist to work towards what would best create happiness sexually for her.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> H27,
> 
> Earlier you mention that, women only orgasm 33% of the time. Regardless of precision, the key theme is valid. Men come almost 100% of the time. So full stop - there is a big disparity on the rapture.
> 
> ...


I find it highly disturbing that your either fictional or non fictional friend would tell people outside their marriage that he was unhappily in a sexless marriage as a ploy to get his wife to make a deal for giving him what he wanted. It wasn't that he stopped pretending...the dysfunction was in how he went about working on his/their issue.

I would never be so disloyal to my husband nor has he done that to me -as to take our private issues to friends/family outsiders.

Marriage is a private sacred relationship and unless there is criminal behavior, very much of what goes on between two people or the individuals in the privacy of ones home is expected to remain private. One could argue that this or that thing is not private but, in my mind, I guard my husbands right to privacy and he does mine. We don't go to our friends and family and put our spouse down. 

If we have issues, we handle those issues with each other or in therapy.

I would never blackmail my husband into doing something by threatening to out some private issue in front of our friends. The destructiveness this would cause is unfathomable to me.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> This one guy, his wife had completely weaponized sex. For a long time. Of course, she did a lot of mate guarding when they socialized because at some level she realized how destructive this was. And one day he says, you need to stop touching me in public. And I’m done pretending we have a happy marriage. When people ask how we are doing, I’m going to tell them that I’m an unhappy man in a sexless marriage and don’t know what’s going to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In what bizarro world does this tactic even work? (Bullying your wife into sex through public humiliation). 
Some of the pettiest things I have read. 

Some people forget how to see the forest for the trees: the satisfaction of ‘winning’ against your spouse, seems to eclipse any other desire, such as basic right to one’s own happiness.

If one aspect bugs you so much that you are willing to go through such trouble to teach your spouse a lesson, you should leave instead or make it clear that you are leaving. It is not right to employ these underhand bullying tactics.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Prime,
> The folks who study toxins have a saying. The dose makes the poison
> 
> Radio station had a water drinking contest. Only did it once though - what with the winner dying and all.
> ...


We tried watching some educational porns but you couldn't really see what was going on - plus porn people pretend so much...then another one was girl on girl and...that was dumb too because the lady performing the cuny kept stopping, talking and looking up like she was making a casserole.

I do think different women are different also...guessing from reading and watching a series of a lot of vids of women masturbating, all while trying to figure things out. I watched the series video to try and figure out for myself how to orgasm - to see if there was anything unusual about me and how I orgasm.

How people orgasm alone is, yeah, going to be different than with a partner.

One thing I've discovered is that sometimes guys tackle cuny like its fellatio...as if the sensation and escalation is all in the physical. For me, as a woman and I understand from researching female orgasm, a lot of what is going on is happening mentally...that causes the escalation to orgasm.

So, part of the technique from her partner is peripheral stimulation - talking sexy, telling her she's hot, creating a sexy mental scenario - not just going at it like the guy would respond to a blow job.

I'm sure that was clear as mud but at least I'm trying to describe it the best I can. 

Add to all that that different women are different in the type and amount of stimulation and thus why her partner getting to know HER personally is really critical to happy outcomes.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> One thing I've discovered is that sometimes guys tackle cuny like its fellatio...as if the sensation and escalation is all in the physical.



Btw I forget to mention that it works in reverse too: I can learn a lot from my wife’s ‘mistakes’ on me, how she would like to be approached.
We all are generally terrible at relating to others so it stands to reason that the way we think we should stimulate our partner would be the way we would like to be stimulated BY our partner (and vice versa). So I can tell from what she does to me, how she would like to be approached sometimes....

Ok, it’s sometimes like predicting future from reading tea leaves but I have discovered a few things that I would otherwise never have guessed. (Especially to do with mental stimulation; as you rightly referred: it’s 90% of the deal for her and the very concept used to be completely alien to me at first).



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> So, part of the technique from her partner is peripheral stimulation - talking sexy, telling her she's hot, creating a sexy mental scenario - not just going at it like the guy would respond to a blow job.



Oh and on which part of the model vajayjay do you point out to your husband how to talk dirty? 



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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > So, part of the technique from her partner is peripheral stimulation - talking sexy, telling her she's hot, creating a sexy mental scenario - not just going at it like the guy would respond to a blow job.
> ...


The talking is a separate activity. The point of exploring the feminine genetalia is to explain my own erogenous areas and how the concept of building levels of excitement in a woman vs how men build levels of excitement.

My husband and I have discussed and compared these things. Sometimes he earlier had the impression one just goes straight for the clit...which I compared to grabbing a ****. It's not like that for most women...

We had a love making session once, for instance, where he stimulated every other erogenous zone except my genitalia for about 20 minutes while he was fully clothed and I ended up practically ripping his clothes off and making a 3 minute finish out of it.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> We tried watching some educational porns but you couldn't really see what was going on - plus porn people pretend so much...then another one was girl on girl and...that was dumb too because the lady performing the cuny kept stopping, talking and looking up like she was making a casserole.
> 
> I do think different women are different also...guessing from reading and watching a series of a lot of vids of women masturbating, all while trying to figure things out. I watched the series video to try and figure out for myself how to orgasm - to see if there was anything unusual about me and how I orgasm.
> 
> ...


Every woman I've been with has been different. Though I always seem to start off close enough that mild course corrections did the trick.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I note that you are entirely untroubled by the fact that his wife was routinely putting on a totally deceptive show regarding the state of their marriage. 

Involuntary sexlessness is a type of betrayal. If you cheat on your spouse you can scream foul all you want when they tell people, but you are unlikely to get sympathy. 

Many people consider involuntary sexlessness a type of betrayal. 



happiness27 said:


> I find it highly disturbing that your either fictional or non fictional friend would tell people outside their marriage that he was unhappily in a sexless marriage as a ploy to get his wife to make a deal for giving him what he wanted. It wasn't that he stopped pretending...the dysfunction was in how he went about working on his/their issue.
> 
> I would never be so disloyal to my husband nor has he done that to me -as to take our private issues to friends/family outsiders.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> My husband and I have discussed and compared these things. Sometimes he earlier had the impression one just goes straight for the clit...


Yes...that was my suspicion. We (men) like to zoom in on the target and 'shoot' at it until it either bleeds or dies...:surprise:


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> I note that you are entirely untroubled by the fact that his wife was routinely putting on a totally deceptive show regarding the state of their marriage.
> 
> Involuntary sexlessness is a type of betrayal. If you cheat on your spouse you can scream foul all you want when they tell people, but you are unlikely to get sympathy.
> 
> ...


Please tell me how her behavior justifies his reaction?

That'd be like me saying "if you can't give me oral 3 nights a week, I'm gonna tell everyone what lousy lover you are."

Jeez who would do that?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > My husband and I have discussed and compared these things. Sometimes he earlier had the impression one just goes straight for the clit...
> ...


Haha.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> In what bizarro world does this tactic even work? (Bullying your wife into sex through public humiliation).
> Some of the pettiest things I have read.


I didn't read it as "bullying your wife into sex".

I read it as "refusing to accommodate her desire to use him in the effort to present herself as being a person that had no connection to who she really was".

That she ended up considering trying to actually be the person who she'd been pretending to be was just a side benefit.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> I didn't read it as "bullying your wife into sex".
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Maybe I read it wrong. I just don’t see why it matters to them how people perceive their marriage. Why not make it known to her directly that this is intolerable. 
It just reinforces how pathetic the situation is: that she can only acknowledge the sorry state of events through other people’s eyes, not her husband’s.
The best way to show her (and everyone else) how unhappy he was is by leaving her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You seem unable to process the concept of a physically healthy couple where one person is gating sex to once every 5 weeks.

And in between is occasionally promising sex and then coming up with an excuse at the last minute. 

Sometimes intimate partner homicide is mechanical. Sometimes it’s emotional. 





happiness27 said:


> Please tell me how her behavior justifies his reaction?
> 
> That'd be like me saying "if you can't give me oral 3 nights a week, I'm gonna tell everyone what lousy lover you are."
> 
> Jeez who would do that?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> You seem unable to process the concept of a physically healthy couple where one person is gating sex to once every 5 weeks.
> 
> And in between is occasionally promising sex and then coming up with an excuse at the last minute.
> 
> ...


Thankfully I'm able to process what is and is not a rational response to marital discord.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Exactly

She was publicly projecting the image of a close, warm, physical, happy marriage. 

And she was using him as her accomplice. 

She could have chosen to be ‘silent’ on their marriage. There is a way to do that. But that wasn’t her style. Instead she had this very explicit messaging - in word and tone and touch - that screamed happy/loving marriage. 

She was being socially competitive. This (social competitiveness) is fairly common behavior. 

When this fellow had his lightbulb moment he thought, I am going to unravel this giant public lie. 

And then - of course - it turns out that the truth is an absolute defense against any whining about a lack of discretion.

And hey - she had a choice at that point. Could have said, public humiliation is abusive, I want a divorce. Thing is, he was overall a good husband, and she didn’t want a divorce. But she couldn’t tolerate the public humiliation.

So she actually worked with her H collaboratively to fix their sex life. And as of four years later they were still together.





Buddy400 said:


> I didn't read it as "bullying your wife into sex".
> 
> I read it as "refusing to accommodate her desire to use him in the effort to present herself as being a person that had no connection to who she really was".
> 
> That she ended up considering trying to actually be the person who she'd been pretending to be was just a side benefit.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Exactly
> 
> She was publicly projecting the image of a close, warm, physical, happy marriage.
> 
> ...


The man who used public humiliation was abusive. I don't applaud that his bullying tactic worked. He deserves no admiration for that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Funny how that concept you are so comfortable with - of being cooked or baked or finished or some such term for the R being over with - is eluding you now. 

If it was unfair she ought have left him.




happiness27 said:


> Thankfully I'm able to process what is and is not a rational response to marital discord.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Some folks might say that her extended use of him as a prop in her public relations campaign - was abusive. 

And that this was the same as the woman who is getting hit by her bigger male partner - when she tells all their friends - he is rightfully embarrassed. He isn’t foolish enough to try and claim that marriage is a private business.

And that is ultimately the flaw in your thinking. Because an unscrupulous sexually stronger partner - does tremendous damage, despite leaving no bruises. 




happiness27 said:


> The man who used public humiliation was abusive. I don't applaud that his bullying tactic worked. He deserves no admiration for that.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Funny how that concept you are so comfortable with - of being cooked or baked or finished or some such term for the R being over with - is eluding you now.
> 
> If it was unfair she ought have left him.
> 
> ...


It was on him to behave civilly, which includes discretion in ironing out his marital discord privately between the two of them, including, if he continued to be unhappy, being the one to walk away rather than use twisted manipulation to bend another person to his will. No one rational would find this behavior a clever solution.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Some folks might say that her extended use of him as a prop in her public relations campaign - was abusive.
> 
> And that this was the same as the woman who is getting hit by her bigger male partner - when she tells all their friends - he is rightfully embarrassed. He isn’t foolish enough to try and claim that marriage is a private business.
> 
> ...


The law would disagree with your comparison of a physically abusive spouse to a spouse who didn't agree to having sex often enough to suit the other.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It’s borderline comical that you believe talking about the bad behavior is far worse than the behavior itself. 

And outright hilarious that you seem perfectly fine with her use of him in a long-standing manipulation of their social standing.

And being a decade in to a sexless marriage only means that the refusing partner has discovered that they are generally safe in tossing out a crumb every month or two. 

And of course all perfectly legal. It isn’t slander if it’s true. 





happiness27 said:


> It was on him to behave civilly, which includes discretion in ironing out his marital discord privately between the two of them, including, if he continued to be unhappy, being the one to walk away rather than use twisted manipulation to bend another person to his will. No one rational would find this behavior a clever solution.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> The law would disagree with your comparison of a physically abusive spouse to a spouse who didn't agree to having sex often enough to suit the other.


Not in terms of criminality, but many states allow alienation of affection and a few other cute legal terms as divorce with cause...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> It’s borderline comical that you believe talking about the bad behavior is far worse than the behavior itself.
> 
> And outright hilarious that you seem perfectly fine with her use of him in a long-standing manipulation of their social standing.
> 
> ...


Yes, I admit that I value maturity, civility and discretion. 

I've outlined in several different posts on TAM what various solutions can be considered for people who seek to increase satisfaction in their sex lives: communication, marriage counseling, sex counseling, even enthusiastically, mutually agreed upon open marriage or swinging - or divorce.

Being crappy to the other person while staying in the marriage and complaining is not a solution I embrace.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > The law would disagree with your comparison of a physically abusive spouse to a spouse who didn't agree to having sex often enough to suit the other.
> ...


Alienation of affection is a term brought against a third party thought to have brought about the failure of a marriage so not sure what that has to do with anything other than an affair partner. It doesn't have anything to do with a disagreement just over sex frequency by itself.

The bottom line is that there's nothing mature or civil about revenge on a spouse over sexual disagreement. Either make the effort to fix it in a mature fashion or get out and move on.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

inmyprime said:


> Maybe I read it wrong. I just don’t see why it matters to them how people perceive their marriage. Why not make it known to her directly that this is intolerable.
> It just reinforces how pathetic the situation is: that she can only acknowledge the sorry state of events through other people’s eyes, not her husband’s.
> The best way to show her (and everyone else) how unhappy he was is by leaving her.


I am guessing he has tried everything else and it has failed. He is tired of telling her that it is intolerable. He is tired of her pretending everything is great to everyone but him.

I am guessing that the next step is leaving her.

Or with a couple of my friends, their next step is to just live the rest of their lives doing their own thing. They are 65 years old and they try to make the best of the rest of their life. They gave up on their marriage and are living life as best they can, in the situation they are in.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Of course he had. The idea that a guy ten years into severe deprivation hasn’t tried everything he could think of within the confines of the marriage - is patently ludicrous. 

And suddenly the - if you’re unhappy leave - became: No if YOU are unhappy YOU leave. 




SadSamIAm said:


> I am guessing he has tried everything else and it has failed. He is tired of telling her that it is intolerable. He is tired of her pretending everything is great to everyone but him.
> 
> I am guessing that the next step is leaving her.
> 
> Or with a couple of my friends, their next step is to just live the rest of their lives doing their own thing. They are 65 years old and they try to make the best of the rest of their life. They gave up on their marriage and are living life as best they can, in the situation they are in.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe I read it wrong. I just don’t see why it matters to them how people perceive their marriage. Why not make it known to her directly that this is intolerable.
> ...


I hate to see people stooping to bad behavior to try and manipulate their way out of marital problems.

Yet I think we can all admit that divorce isn't easy or clear cut sometimes. 

Even divorce attorneys, though, advise clients in situations where sex is extremely infrequent to try counseling solutions first.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> Alienation of affection is a term brought against a third party thought to have brought about the failure of a marriage so not sure what that has to do with anything other than an affair partner. It doesn't have anything to do with a disagreement just over sex frequency by itself.
> 
> The bottom line is that there's nothing mature or civil about revenge on a spouse over sexual disagreement. Either make the effort to fix it in a mature fashion or get out and move on.


Oops wrong term - I meant constructive abandonment... Mea culpa.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

SadSamIAm said:


> I am guessing he has tried everything else and it has failed. He is tired of telling her that it is intolerable. He is tired of her pretending everything is great to everyone but him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It’s difficult to comment properly because this story is based on hearsay and it’s like commenting on Chinese Whispers. Pointless. The premise becomes whatever you project it to be. Revenge, blackmail or pressure is never good. I’m not taking sides: there are plenty of crazy and manipulative people. It doesn’t mean it is ethical to ‘beat’ them with the same tools they use.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > If we have issues, we handle those issues with each other or in therapy.
> ...


 @happiness27 many LD spouses that subject their marriage to a sex-starved scenario do not or will not go to therapy. Therapy is perhaps perceived to only put more pressure to have sex more often or end the marriage. At the same time an LD spouse may elude to friends and family that everything in the marriage bed is great when asked or by giving strong public displays of affection, which then keeps social pressure on the sex starved spouse to remain loyal. 

So if there are marital problems one should be able to confide with friends and family for emotional support and help. In this hypothetical scenario the husband did not exactly out his wife for being sexless, he just stopped pretending. Imagine a spouse that refuses to kiss you in private, but yet she will do so lavishly in social situations to keep up appearances of a good marriage. Is it really blackmail for the husband in this scenario to refuse public displays of affection as a way to convey to friends and family the honest truth about his marriage?

OMG I just searched "awkward kisses" and there are so many political ones that hit on this exact subject. Political candidates are often scrutinized to see how good their marriages are and some spouses make no doubt about it come time for a public display of affection that there are some serious problems. While I would love to post some of those here, I do not want to debate politics in this thread as this is a universal problem regardless of political beliefs or preferences. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Yes...that was my suspicion. We (men) like to zoom in on the target and 'shoot' at it until it either bleeds or dies...:surprise:


Yep, but as we've all learned, an amateur mistake 🙄🙄!!

Unless an urgency is communicated there are four to six stages 😊😊😊 yes, a bit abashedly I've put quite a bit of thought into this through the years. During workdays sometimes even!!

And the number of stages varies depending on earlier togetherness activities. 

One semi consistent way, is to perform rhythmically whichever action is being performed at the time. Too much stopping and starting can break things being built up once the engine is running hot. A personal secret, that's why I like having a good blues playlist going on from Alexa.

😍 the only reason I'm adding a bit of detail is this morning W got out of the shower in a shortie, into the living room, and proceeded to put lotion on her legs and higher up, giving me a glimpse of no panties yet. 

While we were planning our day. W has the day off, and what time I'll get home from work tonight. 

And so, yes. I'm thinking about it. 😎😎😎


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I've coined a theory of sorts. Each LD spouse has an ideal frequency in mind, what I call service level agreement (SLA). Any action by the non LD spouse is seen as wanting to upend the SLA. No matter the intent. 

You end up with outcomes such as awesome sex but lousy frequency, and no desire to improve. You reject any overtures that could possibly lead to sex. You actively reject. Not just passively play Candy Crush. 

People not in the business don't understand the mechanics of it. Absolutely don't.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Potential problems arise when there's an SLA in place but without penalties or LDs.

Can be broken anytime without consequences.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Potential problems arise when there's an SLA in place but without penalties or LDs.
> 
> Can be broken anytime without consequences.


The SLA takes a while to get established so it's not likely that penalties will be forthcoming.

My own experience suggests a fairly elaborate defense mechanism... Which is pitiful because all that energy could be going to more useful purposes...


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> While we were planning our day. W has the day off, and what time I'll get home from work tonight.


"I'm coming home early this afternoon" has a very specific meaning for us


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> The law would disagree with your comparison of a physically abusive spouse to a spouse who didn't agree to having sex often enough to suit the other.


Actually, the recent trend is for mental abuse to be seen as the equivalent of physical abuse.

I think it's seen as an effort to protect more women.. 

But actually, it may backfire by creating more male abuse victims.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> @happiness27 many LD spouses that subject their marriage to a sex-starved scenario do not or will not go to therapy. Therapy is perhaps perceived to only put more pressure to have sex more often or end the marriage. At the same time an LD spouse may elude to friends and family that everything in the marriage bed is great when asked or by giving strong public displays of affection, which then keeps social pressure on the sex starved spouse to remain loyal.
> 
> So if there are marital problems one should be able to confide with friends and family for emotional support and help. In this hypothetical scenario the husband did not exactly out his wife for being sexless, he just stopped pretending. Imagine a spouse that refuses to kiss you in private, but yet she will do so lavishly in social situations to keep up appearances of a good marriage. Is it really blackmail for the husband in this scenario to refuse public displays of affection as a way to convey to friends and family the honest truth about his marriage?
> 
> ...


Although I see both sides, I believe I'm with @badsanta here.

He kind of just stopped pretending and stopped reinforcing her playacting.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> @happiness27 many LD spouses that subject their marriage to a sex-starved scenario do not or will not go to therapy. Therapy is perhaps perceived to only put more pressure to have sex more often or end the marriage. At the same time an LD spouse may elude to friends and family that everything in the marriage bed is great when asked or by giving strong public displays of affection, which then keeps social pressure on the sex starved spouse to remain loyal.
> 
> So if there are marital problems one should be able to confide with friends and family for emotional support and help. In this hypothetical scenario the husband did not exactly out his wife for being sexless, he just stopped pretending. Imagine a spouse that refuses to kiss you in private, but yet she will do so lavishly in social situations to keep up appearances of a good marriage. Is it really blackmail for the husband in this scenario to refuse public displays of affection as a way to convey to friends and family the honest truth about his marriage?
> 
> ...


To address what you've said here about defining blackmail, I guess one can paint the situation in any way that suits their argument.

What I feel cautious about here is that when any of us resort to manipulation to get anything we want, the other party is not giving freely. Any issues that exist are not addressed and resolved such that you would have two people happily engaged with each other, which, IMHO, is a far better and authentic goal.

Doing something manipulative to "win" in a short term isn't really going to be a win. While I am going to acknowledge the poster who said that we don't really have a full picture of the scenario in question - so really, all of what I'm saying is mere speculation based on the information posted - I think that if any of us think about it, doing things to manipulate, whine, complain/gossip to others...says more about the manipulator. The manipulator thinks he's "outing" his spouse and that people will think less of her by him outing her disingenuineness. However, what he fails to take into account is that others are also going to be cautious of him since he has now shown that he is a person who is willing to manipulate others to get his way. 

When we speak - and we are all human and have made mistakes in this regard, it is well-understood that our words and actions say much about us. We can complain about a variety of things but when we do so, observers are making note of how we conduct ourselves much more than what we are complaining about. 

Browning's soliloquies are some examples of how people who make complaints about others are actually revealing much more about their own personality than the person they are complaining about. When we work on our own defects of character - which, really, is our actual goal and journey (not making other people around us change to suit us), incredibly, we gain much more of what makes us happy. Because we are creating happiness within ourselves first and therefore have more to offer other people.

What do you think of this monk complaining about his Brother? Do you understand that his Brother is flawed...or...does the monk tell us more about his own character flaws?

https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/soliloquy-spanish-cloister


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Although I see both sides, I believe I'm with @badsanta here.
> 
> He kind of just stopped pretending and stopped reinforcing her playacting.


If his goal was to be his more authentic self, then behaving more authentically meant that he disliked his wife's pretentiousness and decided to display his hurt.

If, however, his goal was to manipulate his wife to get his way, I think this is an action that leads to a slippery slope. 

A better way would have been to take a path that leads both of them towards genuinely loving each other. Love, given under duress, isn't love. Genuinely love is given freely.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

And I agree, genuine love and affection is given and shown freely. 

It sounds like these two are better just split, or after each has been awakened by both parties nuclear options used, decide to reset with respect, live, and honesty.

Imho that wouldn't happen, but I hope the best for them.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> What I feel cautious about here is that when any of us resort to manipulation to get anything we want, the other party is not giving freely. Any issues that exist are not addressed and resolved such that you would have two people happily engaged with each other, which, IMHO, is a far better and authentic goal.
> 
> Doing something manipulative to "win" in a short term isn't really going to be a win


If I could speculate here... to me this sounds more like an excuse that an LD spouse would give to make a sex starved spouse stop trying. Because issues that exist have likely been addressed in almost every amicable way possible to no avail. What you call manipulation, I would call getting more aggressive to address an issue.

When my wife and I had issues to were she thought she was no longer attractive because of her age. I would tell her that she was beautiful and she would insist that was a lie used to just manipulate her so that I could get more intimacy. So what did I do? I guess I resorted to "manipulation" and "blackmail" to get her to understand that she is indeed beautiful. I purposefully outed her to family members by telling them that she thinks she is ugly and that I am accused of telling her lies when I say she is beautiful. What happened as a result? We had a breakthrough! Our daughter got extremely upset that her mom didn't see herself as beautiful and pointed out that I was not telling her lies and that she is indeed beautiful. 

*Why would just being honest ever be considered a form manipulation? * Yes, I get that some matters are private. But sometimes you have to be assertive when nothing else works to create a change. Sometimes needed changes require one to aggressively perturb a problem so that it can finally be revealed and confronted as opposed to hidden and ignored.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> When my wife and I had issues to were she thought she was no longer attractive because of her age. I would tell her that she was beautiful and she would insist that was a lie used to just manipulate her so that I could get more intimacy. So what did I do? I guess I resorted to "manipulation" and "blackmail" to get her to understand that she is indeed beautiful. I purposefully outed her to family members by telling them that she thinks she is ugly and that I am accused of telling her lies when I say she is beautiful. What happened as a result? We had a breakthrough! Our daughter got extremely upset that her mom didn't see herself as beautiful and pointed out that I was not telling her lies and that she is indeed beautiful.



The first thing that would bother me from this (and the other story) is that she would not believe a word I say yet believe whatever the strangers/outsiders say. 
The second thing that would bother me is that I’m the guy where it should matter to her the most whether he finds her beautiful or not.
Ultimately it’s a trust issue though: if my wife thinks I’m saying or doing anything at all to manipulate her in any way, then it means she doesn’t trust me. It’s as simple as that.



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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

You know, I have been following all of this. Tried to stay out. 

There is just a lot of good conversation going on. And I am not sure if @happiness27 's philosophical musings are correct or just intellectually satisfying. 

I hear both sides. 

Here is the bottom line, for me. (Old hard ass me) 

- HD & LD partners should not get married, if they cannot fix it to BOTH parties satisfaction, in the true sense of the word, they should get a divorce. If it requires gaming, throwing a fit, or whatever else, besides open and honest communication, the for gods sake end it. 

- If you have lost sexual attraction to your mate, just end it. Be honest don't string them along for your comfort providing minimal duty sex to keep them around. Just be an adult.

- If you are the HD partner, and you have actually tried EVERYTHING, end it, get out. Find another HD partner. 

- If you are here or another board complaining about your horrible sex life and you really have tried, get out or shut up about it. 

- Men, this stuff is not that hard, a woman love you and desires you, short of some medical condition, or she does not, have the balls to make yourself happy. 

That is my rant for now...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> You know, I have been following all of this. Tried to stay out.
> 
> There is just a lot of good conversation going on. And I am not sure if @happiness27 's philosophical musings are correct or just intellectually satisfying.
> 
> ...


Yep. THIS ^^^^^^^^


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> The first thing that would bother me from this (and the other story) is that she would not believe a word I say yet believe whatever the strangers/outsiders say.
> The second thing that would bother me is that I’m the guy where it should matter to her the most whether he finds her beautiful or not.
> Ultimately it’s a trust issue though: if my wife thinks I’m saying or doing anything at all to manipulate her in any way, then it means she doesn’t trust me. It’s as simple as that.
> 
> ...


Gawd, women are so freakin' hard on themselves. The porno/sex cheerleader/Hooter/How-to-magazine articles/comparison crap women expose themselves to really gets to some gals more than others.

I'm constantly deflecting compliments from my husband. So, your post was valuable to me as another perspective.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> If I could speculate here... to me this sounds more like an excuse that an LD spouse would give to make a sex starved spouse stop trying. Because issues that exist have likely been addressed in almost every amicable way possible to no avail. What you call manipulation, I would call getting more aggressive to address an issue.
> 
> When my wife and I had issues to were she thought she was no longer attractive because of her age. I would tell her that she was beautiful and she would insist that was a lie used to just manipulate her so that I could get more intimacy. So what did I do? I guess I resorted to "manipulation" and "blackmail" to get her to understand that she is indeed beautiful. I purposefully outed her to family members by telling them that she thinks she is ugly and that I am accused of telling her lies when I say she is beautiful. What happened as a result? We had a breakthrough! Our daughter got extremely upset that her mom didn't see herself as beautiful and pointed out that I was not telling her lies and that she is indeed beautiful.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm referring to the guy who exposed his wife's lack of affection at home to their friends - I think your situation was to rally some support for your wife, not to demean her. In that way, it's different.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Gawd, women are so freakin' hard on themselves. The porno/sex cheerleader/Hooter/How-to-magazine articles/comparison crap women expose themselves to really gets to some gals more than others.
> 
> I'm constantly deflecting compliments from my husband. So, your post was valuable to me as another perspective.



It’s hard to reconcile (for me anyway) why outside compliments should have more value or be taken more sincerely than my own compliments (to my wife), if that situation were to arise (which it usually doesn’t; at least not that I’m aware of. She is not that bothered about outside validation but I can imagine that since she is also only human, she wouldn’t be indifferent to them).

But otherwise deflecting compliments works fine for us in the chase & pursue dynamic (where I get to ‘catch’ and ‘use’ her, sexually, as in she lets me). But if they were deflected AND she was always cold / non-sexual with me, then it would be a problem.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Gawd, women are so freakin' hard on themselves. The porno/sex cheerleader/Hooter/How-to-magazine articles/comparison crap women expose themselves to really gets to some gals more than others.
> 
> I'm constantly deflecting compliments from my husband. So, your post was valuable to me as another perspective.


This goes deeper as far a womanhood goes in general. For me, I don't let the women I am with get away with deflecting comments. For the following reason: 

I have yet to meet a woman that truly understood how beautiful she was. Short, tall, thin, or plus size, they just don't get it. 

So when they try that with me I just say, "Hey, do you honestly think I would be with you if I did not think you are beautiful? Really? You are and you should know it, take the compliment, say thank you ard feel good about yourself.... And take your cloths off...."

Ok I don't say the last part all the time but you get the idea...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> So when they try that with me I just say, "Hey, do you honestly think I would be with you if I did not think you are beautiful? Really? You are and you should know it, take the compliment, say thank you ard feel good about yourself.... And take your cloths off...."



You are a true gentleman, form the times bygone!

Especially if those women still wear cloths as opposed to clothes 

The problem I sometimes face, having been together with the same woman for over 20 years, is the occasional eye rolling.

So I try to make my compliments a little more elaborate lately, to see if it makes any difference. I go down and kneel in front of her, with my lute, and whisper gently: your teeth are like stars; so yellow and far apart. Your face is like the moon: so round and full of craters. Your eyes fill me with excitement: because one is pointing left and the other one right and I honestly can’t tell wtf it is you are looking at...

Then I take my own cloth off. Works every time 


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> This goes deeper as far a womanhood goes in general. For me, I don't let the women I am with get away with deflecting comments. For the following reason:
> 
> I have yet to meet a woman that truly understood how beautiful she was. Short, tall, thin, or plus size, they just don't get it.
> 
> ...


"I said you're beautiful, DAMMIT!" lol


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> "I said you're beautiful, DAMMIT!" lol


Au contraire, a lot of women know how beautiful they aren't and make the effort to improve. But a lot don't, for many reasons. 

A lot of things you can easily fix, but sooner rather than later. 

But what you can't easily fix is attitude.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> You are a true gentleman, form the times bygone!
> 
> Especially if those women still wear cloths as opposed to clothes
> 
> ...


Well you have to up your game, and don't let her off the hook. 

Here is a story for you guys that illustrates some of this: 

Besides being literally one of the most wonderful women I have ever met... honest to god, she has the softest skin imaginable. Intoxicatingly soft. 

So we were cuddling and of during the cuddling, I stroke her all over be esp her ass. And I just commented on how incredibly soft her butt was. She laughed, you know, like they do, and said what do you mean. 

I asked what do you mean "what do I mean"? Why do you think it is so soft? So I took her hand and ran it across her cheeks and said, "feel that"? 

She was amazed and said wow, I just never knew... That is just one example. 

It also helped that a friend of hers touched her arm later that week and went on and on about how soft her skin was. So that gave me even more credibility. 

Now I have her accepting and loving all of my compliments, and she is just as happy as a lark...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> > You are a true gentleman, form the times bygone!
> ...


Beautifully done - details...illustration. Excellent.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I can only say it's all very well, but nothing works when you have a partner with severe body image issues... it's a lost battle and you can say whatever you want. If I "outed" my wife in the presence of her family, she would have killed me. I don't buy @BluesPower simplistic approach (I'm glad it works for him). My wife is a very complex person and there is nothing black and white about her personality and I can't change a thing. Believe me, I tried. I didn't have the skills to be her therapist, unfortunately, so all I have left is divorce.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> I can only say it's all very well, but nothing works when you have a partner with severe body image issues... it's a lost battle and you can say whatever you want. If I "outed" my wife in the presence of her family, she would have killed me. I don't buy @BluesPower simplistic approach (I'm glad it works for him). My wife is a very complex person and there is nothing black and white about her personality and I can't change a thing. Believe me, I tried. I didn't have the skills to be her therapist, unfortunately, so all I have left is divorce.


 @In Absentia , the thing that you are starting to realize is that, as much as my approach is simplistic, it really is that simple. 

Let me ask you this if you had had the balls to leave your LD Wife (read as wife that is not attracted to you and frankly has not loved you in a long time, if ever) YEARS AGO, and found a woman that was sexual and loved you and was attracted to you. How much better off would you be now. 

I wager a lot better off. You stuck it out, and were a chump just like a lot of the sexless guys on this board. I bet if Brad Pitt popped by for a quickie all of the low drive wives would somehow be as sexual as a porn star. 

I mean no disrespect to the other chumps or to you. I was a chump for a long time, but it was not sexless so stupid me thought I should "Stay together no matter what". That entire sentiment, for whatever reason is stupid. 

I was stupid, you were stupid, lots of people were stupid, and there really is not other word to describe it. Oh, you can make excuses, you can rationalize it, you can do whatever, it is still stupid. 

It is better to own our stupidity and move on to a happy life, it just is...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> @In Absentia , the thing that you are starting to realize is that, as much as my approach is simplistic, it really is that simple.
> 
> Let me ask you this if you had had the balls to leave your LD Wife (read as wife that is not attracted to you and frankly has not loved you in a long time, if ever) YEARS AGO, and found a woman that was sexual and loved you and was attracted to you. How much better off would you be now.
> 
> ...




Yes, but I did play an important part in the failure of my marriage, so just blaming my wife is not going to help me with closure. I need to come to terms with it and the role I played in it. It's also true that I don't think the outcome would have been different. So, I should have left a lot earlier instead of being incredibly stubborn and making things worse. But this is one of my many flaws. I was convinced I could fix it. But I'm a bit naïve and tend to have a romantic outlook... :smile2:


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

This is an interesting exercise in something...interesting in that it is your fear of your wife's reaction, who has little to no regard for you.

So you blame things on being "complex", which conveniently allows you to avoid rocking the boat, while simultaneously claiming it isn't your fault.

Victim ideology. 

This sounds like it has a whole lot more to do with you than your wife. 

Perhaps I am simple as well, but if my wife announced to me (after years of sexual avoidance) our sex life was over for good, I would not like it...but damn if I wouldn't appreciate the honesty.

No more saying she wants sex with me while her actions saying something entirely different. 

No more desperate searching for the next hoop to jump through that leads to a healthy sex life. 

No more gaslighting me by convincing me my sex drive by it's very nature is somehow nefarious.

IA, you have a real opportunity...but you have to remove your ass from the victim chair in order to see it.



In Absentia said:


> I can only say it's all very well, but nothing works when you have a partner with severe body image issues... it's a lost battle and you can say whatever you want. If I "outed" my wife in the presence of her family, she would have killed me. I don't buy @BluesPower simplistic approach (I'm glad it works for him). My wife is a very complex person and there is nothing black and white about her personality and I can't change a thing. Believe me, I tried. I didn't have the skills to be her therapist, unfortunately, so all I have left is divorce.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> IA, you have a real opportunity...but you have to remove your ass from the victim chair in order to see it.


I see it, I see it... :smile2: I have been revisiting and analysing our relationship and I think I have understood my role in it. This doesn't mean I understand why she'e been so draconian in deciding - point blank - that I was surplus to her sexual requirements, furnishing the old chestnut as an excuse - that I hounded her, pressured her, frightened her. After 10 years of things being good. But maybe they weren't. I know this can't be fixed. I'm not making excuses. I'm trying to understand. In great sadness.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Yes, but I did play an important part in the failure of my marriage, so just blaming my wife is not going to help me with closure. I need to come to terms with it and the role I played in it. It's also true that I don't think the outcome would have been different. So, I should have left a lot earlier instead of being incredibly stubborn and making things worse. But this is one of my many flaws. I was convinced I could fix it. But I'm a bit naïve and tend to have a romantic outlook... :smile2:


If you think you are the only stubborn man, or woman for that matter, that thought you could fix someone, then you really are as stupid as I was. As far as being a naïve romantic, is there a worse combination in the entire world. I am a little bit that way as well. Or I was, I am still a romantic it guess. 

The thing is, life is just so much better when you just start dealing with your things and leave other people to theirs. Lots of people think it is selfish to think this way, it is not. You staying for your kid to leave for collage is not what you should be doing. You should have already filed and be splitting assets. 

She knows it is coming, she is in denial, you are in denial. 

Even my kids bucked me when I stopped being codependent and started living my life for me and my happiness, but I just said, hey, you are old enough to handle your business.

I just cannot tell you what life is like with a woman that actually loves you, I never knew, or maybe I could not accept it and I was just finally ready to be loved when I met my GF. Whatever. 

But when you are in an R where the love is so deep, so strong, FROM BOTH SIDES, man it is just the best thing ever. 

You will get there, you need to stop beating yourself up for being stupid, and start living your life.

I promise the sooner you start, the better your life will be...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"@In Absentia , the thing that you are starting to realize is that, as much as my approach is simplistic, it really is that simple."

Unfortunately it's not this simple in a long term legally involved relationship... Otherwise psychologists and marriage counselors would be out of business...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

john117 said:


> "@In Absentia , the thing that you are starting to realize is that, as much as my approach is simplistic, it really is that simple."
> 
> Unfortunately it's not this simple in a long term legally involved relationship... Otherwise psychologists and marriage counselors would be out of business...


 @john117, I understand with your PHD (I assume) and the academic bubble that you live in, that it is hard to understand that you and the others are wrong, I get that. Now with that sarcasm, comes no disrespect. 

Also, you chose money over love, and that is your choice, no disrespect meant there either, you are a grown man in a free country and you are allowed to choose that. 

And again, as I have said, I was in a long term marriage, I stayed and stayed, and I was never sexless, but I was not happy.

I choose happiness, and it was easy. I slept with many woman it was easy and totally enjoyable. 

My current relationship is effortless, it is highly sexual and totally rewarding in every way. And as much as I love this woman, if this goes south sexually or otherwise, I will end it...

Now I am sure that I don't have as much money and you and your wife do, but I am OK with a good retirement when I get there and I am secure...

But when I go to see my girl tonight, she was babysitting the grandkids last night, she will love seeing me, we will do something fun together. I will make wonderful love to her and go to sleep holding her, and wake up with her still holding me (or visa versa) and I will be happy. 

Guys, it is that easy...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well, if it was this easy, would we have rampant divorce, rampant adultery, and a large number of dating sites all catering to those who don't think it's easy?

As I've said many times, your specific case, while heartwarming, isn't quite the rule. It isn't in scope either. The scope of marriage is a legal one as much as you seem to ignore it. 

You have a very narrow range of applicability in your case. Not a general case.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> @john117, I understand with your PHD (I assume) and the academic bubble that you live in, that it is hard to understand that you and the others are wrong, I get that. Now with that sarcasm, comes no disrespect.
> 
> Also, you chose money over love, and that is your choice, no disrespect meant there either, you are a grown man in a free country and you are allowed to choose that.
> 
> ...



In other words, you will be with anyone as long as they are willing to have sex with you?  joking.

What’s unusual is that you seem to find it so easy to attach or detach yourself from women.
I imagine the reason other men don’t find it as easy to leave is because sex is not the only thing that they feel binds them together: they also love other traits of the person (if that makes sense). You obviously also love the person but if they stop having sex with you, that person (or their other traits) stop being that important to you (if it’s easy enough for you to leave them).
The corollary is of course that you will also stay with someone (or likely to stay with someone) who doesn’t treat you well or have potentially terrible other characteristics, as long as they keep having sex with you. (It’s not a criticism, just an observation). There are always trade offs for any approach.

Anyway, when it comes to it, that’s when it counts. I hope your relationship lasts a life time but I assume it is still fairly new. It’s tempting to extrapolate from how things are now, into infinity. It’s not realistic though. Relationships evolve and NRE can sometimes fool one.



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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> In other words, you will be with anyone as long as they are willing to have sex with you?  joking.
> 
> What’s unusual is that you seem to find it so easy to attach or detach yourself from women.
> I imagine the reason other men don’t find it as easy to leave is because sex is not the only thing that they feel binds them together: they also love other traits of the person (if that makes sense). You obviously also love the person but if they stop having sex with you, that person (or their other traits) stop being that important to you (if it’s easy enough for you to leave them).
> ...


Listen, I understand that you are @john117 are making reasonable arguments. 

And to an extent, maybe it is easier for me to detach from a relationship if it is not working. 

But John, chose to stay because it is "just too hard and cost too much money" to divorce. Sorry, that is hogwash to me. 

How much is happiness worth? You know it is not just about sex for me, if it was I guess I would still be dating multiple women, so that is not it. 

For me it is the whole package, but yes, sex is a huge part of that package. Now whatever my personal failings are, I know that in a relationship, I have to be adored. Yes I spoil them, but affection and adoration is what I think I am always after. Which in some ways is love, I just want to be loved. Love is a lot of things, but is also includes desire and sex. 

Maybe I am simplistic, or maybe I have figured out what makes me happy.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

john117 said:


> Well, if it was this easy, would we have rampant divorce, rampant adultery, and a large number of dating sites all catering to those who don't think it's easy?
> 
> As I've said many times, your specific case, while heartwarming, isn't quite the rule. It isn't in scope either. The scope of marriage is a legal one as much as you seem to ignore it.
> 
> You have a very narrow range of applicability in your case. Not a general case.


Well, whole divorce may not be rampant, adultery is, all the surveys point to the fact that it is. Even surveys where if someone take them they are likely to lie, or only the people that take them are the ones for the most part don't cheat. So I know there are no hard numbers. But is you look at changes in technology and its effect on sociology and human behavior, I believe that it is safe to assume that there is why more cheating than we want to think.

Depending on how you look at it, there are a lot of web sites for cheating, because they don't want to divorce or just want to cheat. 

As far a the legal part of it, I don't ignore it, but you use it as an excuse to keep your money and avoiding the question. You could have divorced, you did not like being low sex, but you looked at money and comfort as more important. I don't begrudge you, I begrudge you using it as an excuse to say "Oh it is too hard, I guess I will be celibate. 

I believe that there are many men like me that have settled down in a monogamous relationship, are not sexless at all, and are happy. I also believe that those men would leave or cheat if the R went south. Men and women do it all the time. 

While I may not be typical, I don't believe that I am that far of an outlier...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> Maybe I am simplistic, or maybe I have figured out what makes me happy.



A bit of both I suppose, which is no bad thing.

I am not that familiar with John’s situation but I thought he has/is divorcing/leaving?

The problem is when it comes to judging other people’s situations: we only typically see the tip of the iceberg. Because they themselves only perceive a small part of the whole thing, how can we then expect to have better insight?

Someone chooses to stay for money: fine. But they may well use money as a justification to stay in a co-dependent relation or because perhaps they know their options are limited at this age or whatever else. In other words, it could be just another rationalisation. Staying because it’s too expensive to divorce is the logical explanation. We also have the emotional part in our brain that also makes decisions...This part doesn’t speak up that much. It just feels stuff. But we often side with that emotional part, and the rational part simply finds a way to explain it away, as if we made a rational decision.




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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Sex is the indicator that things aren't what they appear to be. Nothing more, nothing less. 

I started thinking about sex when things went south seemingly overnight, but the reason I decided to pull the plug was concern about the future. She's not the nurturing caregiver type, nor is she the kind of person who prioritizes experience over material wealth. In the process I uncovered a lot of what was going on in her head and alas, it wasn't pretty. 

The screwed up legal system in my state wasn't much help. Getting custody of teenagers is near impossible if you're the father, and so on. 

Right now I'm walking away with a very nice sum, as does she. The agreement to cover DD's med school tuition 50/50 is being worked on. And, I'm not in the mood to hit the dating scene any time soon. 

Life is more than any of it's components. It's not all about sex, all about food, all about money, etc. It's what we call gestalt. Larger than the sum of its parts. 

I could be having all the sex in the world by spending a summer in my village and picking someone from there. Nice thought but not now. I'm at peace with myself, and that's all that matters. 

The key is a balanced relationship. Where you're intellectual equals, emotional, and all that. Plenty of fish out there but I'm not fishing yet.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

What I'm hearing now from most of you is that marriage contains much more complex components within the relationship than sex alone. This absolutely makes sense to me. So, the decision making about what to do about sexual imbalances involves weighing a lot of other features.

I also am hearing that sexual issues tend to reflect other issues within the marriage. Again, I agree. People who are getting along, really dig each other and are committed don't divorce only over a sexual imbalance - if there are a lot of other happily shared compatibilities within the marriage.

I've been married three times and divorced twice. Each time I divorced, while sexual issues existed, the sexual issues were a reflection of OTHER incompatibilities within the relationships.

I am going to acknowledge that there may exist out there some marriages that are completely otherwise happy where one spouse wants more/better sex than the other. But, surely, these marriages have at least some greater percentage of a chance of being salvaged through marriage counseling, sex counseling...again, bearing in mind that the basic foundations of the marriage are otherwise completely compatible.

That leaves us with what would seem to be a very small percentage of people who would divorce ONLY OVER SEXUAL INCOMPATIBILITY. 

Let's consider, also, that the baseline legal for "sexless" marriages is that the couple has not had relations for a year, in some cases maybe 10X a year (barring medical issues). 

This last paragraph appears to be where a lot of fellas (or gals, less frequently) get into a really rough spot. Ya can't really leave with legal basis but there's that pent up unhappiness over the two people not being able to work out a satisfactory compromise. 

This may be where the marriage hits a tipping point of the unsatisfactory sex arrangement spilling over into effecting other aspects of the marriage relationship. Maybe the dissatisfied partner would become angry and discontent and stop behaving with love towards the other partner - then a snowball effect of the partners not getting along, and the sexual incompatibility blossoming into a greater discontent in more areas of the relationship, e.g., "she isn't going to have sex with me as often as I want so I'm going to stop giving her affection in other ways" as a means to manipulate or pressure the LD partner into having sex more often.

That's not a great path to step into. The suggestion of counseling or sex counseling is a more civil path. If the LD partner won't agree to that, I feel like the HD partner has behaved maturely, hasn't debased themselves into bullying tactics, and is therefore in a better position to say "I have really, really tried in a mature, civil manner but without the cooperation of the LD spouse, I can do no more." That's fair and the HD partner has taken the high road.

Frankly, even though in some states, the option of divorcing over "constructive abandonment" exists, it is 1.) difficult to prove and 2) puts one's sex life in the public record, which in all kinds of ways can come back to bite you in the ass.

It's VERY, VERY hard to keep one's head on straight when a marriage falls apart. But, it's very important to do so for the future. At some point in the future, the marriage will truly be in the past and, hopefully, a better relationship situation will come to pass and there will be 20/20 hindsight. Looking back, we all hope we will behave in ways that won't make us grimace at past poor judgement when we were in the heat of anger over a relationship breakup.

I remember my second husband and I were dividing our household property as I was preparing to leave. We were going through the silverware drawer and my husband said "Those are MY spoons!" over something in the drawer. And I calmly stopped and looked up at him, letting a few seconds pass in silence. Then I said, "Do we really want to do this...over...silverware?" He was, like, "Yeah...no." And we passed the rest of the time peacefully. We moved on with our lives and we remain civil to this day with each other.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

H27:

Where you miss is the reason behind the withdrawal. It isn't to manipulate the other spouse. It is to both reduce the resentment at oneself for continuing to do loving things for your partner, and to not make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.

I explained that to you once and you insisted on the manipulation label then, as you continue to mischaracterize now. 

It isn't about getting even or the application of pressure. It is about finding peace and acceptance. 

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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> H27:
> 
> Where you miss is the reason behind the withdrawal. It isn't to manipulate the other spouse. It is to both reduce the resentment at oneself for continuing to do loving things for your partner, and to not make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.
> 
> ...


Are you talking about choosing to stay in a sexless marriage but withdrawing from any form of affection? That would be an option that brings peace and acceptance to you.?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Oh, not the tit for tat part of the conversation 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Sex is the indicator that things aren't what they appear to be. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> I started thinking about sex when things went south seemingly overnight, but the reason I decided to pull the plug was concern about the future. She's not the nurturing caregiver type, nor is she the kind of person who prioritizes experience over material wealth. In the process I uncovered a lot of what was going on in her head and alas, it wasn't pretty.



Yes exactly. Things are not always just about sex...Sex is a symptom.
The nurturing type: is this something that became apparent later, as kids left? Or just something you never noticed before?
People often take care of each other, even if they don’t like each other very much (a symbiotic type of relationship). 
Unless one person checks out/found someone else, nurturing is one of the last things to go, I would have thought.



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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I am only speaking for myself, and not in the hypothetical, as this scenario has been played out in my marriage, and to some degree still does in far less dramatic cycles than in the past.

The short answer is yes. But for me, if my wife stopped sex completely and made it clear it was completely off the table (by choice rather than by medical reason), I would end the marriage.

That said, sexlessness and the HD/LD conundrum is what brought me here in 2014. We currently have sex between once and twice per month. That really is the most she is willing, and whether or not she feels like it in the moment. Additionally, I do NOT want to have duty sex...bring the passion or don't bother.

So my answer is acceptance, because our marriage is mostly good to great in other areas. But...that also means I build resentment when she ramps up her expectations for acts of service from me while simultaneously keeping our frequency to a couple of times per month. 

So I choose to do what is important to her when I feel like it, and reallocate that effort into something that is important for me. I have hobbies that I frankly enjoy more than sex with her so it works. The once to twice per month we do connect is normally passionate and fun.

I try to focus on acceptance of what is rather than what I wish it would be, and adjust accordingly.

Have you ever read Awareness by DeMello?


happiness27 said:


> Are you talking about choosing to stay in a sexless marriage but withdrawing from any form of affection? That would be an option that brings peace and acceptance to you.?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> I am only speaking for myself, and not in the hypothetical, as this scenario has been played out in my marriage, and to some degree still does in far less dramatic cycles than in the past.
> 
> The short answer is yes. But for me, if my wife stopped sex completely and made it clear it was completely off the table (by choice rather than by medical reason), I would end the marriage.
> 
> ...



This is exactly how we were until she decided no more sex...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> I am only speaking for myself, and not in the hypothetical, as this scenario has been played out in my marriage, and to some degree still does in far less dramatic cycles than in the past.
> 
> The short answer is yes. But for me, if my wife stopped sex completely and made it clear it was completely off the table (by choice rather than by medical reason), I would end the marriage.
> 
> ...




Is her desire tied to the ovulation cycle then?
What would be your ideal frequency? I’m not sure I could do it if it was less frequent than 2-3 days and would bring it up in some way.
Post pregnancy, when she was not horny (at all), she ‘helped’ me (though that required some input on my part in terms of bringing this up). 
If she was only up for it 1-2x a month, I am sure she would help me likewise, and I would not feel short changed or regard it as ‘pity’ or charity...I would see it as her being considerate. Though I would probably try to look at other causes in the meantime: hormonal imbalances etc. (Because I know she is a fairly sexual person; before marriage and kids she was oftentimes as horny as me and we never really had any issues with sex; except that I was probably terrible at it).

It’s strange; if it’s fun and passionate 1-2 every month it doesn’t seem much effort to double or triple it. Every day, I can see it would be tiring and would never expect it. Is it better when on holidays? 

What ‘acts of services’ does she expect from you? Maybe she uses it as a mechanism to keep those in check? I don’t know.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The nurturing part was something you don't think about unless you've seen your parents do. In my case I did notice she wasn't involved with her daughters much if at all, but when I had 3 surgeries in 2015 it really became apparent. Now I'm not talking heart transplant... Trigger finger and 2 cataract surgeries... Whoa. Ouch. FML. 

Same with exploring vs staying. Sex was irrelevant at this point.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> The nurturing part was something you don't think about unless you've seen your parents do. In my case I did notice she wasn't involved with her daughters much if at all, but when I had 3 surgeries in 2015 it really became apparent. Now I'm not talking heart transplant... Trigger finger and 2 cataract surgeries... Whoa. Ouch. FML.
> 
> Same with exploring vs staying. Sex was irrelevant at this point.




How did it show? (If you don’t mind me asking). Was she annoyed with you while you were sick? I wonder about this sometimes myself. Men are supposed to be these ‘infallible’ rocks to fall on, when in need, but then when we get sick, we need someone to take care of us (we are used to it, as this was the case when we had parents looking after us. If this doesn’t happen, it’s a bit of a shock to the system and you start rethinking the whole thing.) I’m surprised however this hasn’t come up before.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> I am only speaking for myself, and not in the hypothetical, as this scenario has been played out in my marriage, and to some degree still does in far less dramatic cycles than in the past.
> 
> The short answer is yes. But for me, if my wife stopped sex completely and made it clear it was completely off the table (by choice rather than by medical reason), I would end the marriage.
> 
> ...


If you are happy with that arrangement, then it sounds like it's working.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I think what I'm saying is that if a spouse is UNHAPPY with sex, then we've discussed solutions: marriage counseling, sex counseling and some out of the box solutions which most people wouldn't likely go for (but some couples do). 

If those don't work, then the greater and more difficult solution of divorce IF the sex issue is *the* priority. And, again, we are talking about a baseline of a couple that otherwise gets along but the withdrawal of sex all by itself with no other issues being a problem. 

I just don't think that a couple who doesn't try counseling and leaning forward into the relationship with a goal of finding a compatible solution to a sexual frequency issue is not really trying EVERYTHING. Both people do need to engage with the counseling. 

When there isn't the ultimate effort described above and the HD spouse decides that a solution is to withdraw saying "this is my peaceful solution" - then that HD spouse needs to truly embrace it as a peaceful solution.

If it is just a fake "peaceful solution" - being "I'm going to be peaceful by withdrawing other types of affection from her" - I'm, like, hmmmmm. Really? Are you telling the truth?

Because it sort of sounds like a passive-aggressive thing - like, "I'm going to pretend I'm not mad or hurt about the no/low sex but I'm going to get my message across by not being affectionate to her in the ways she likes because she's not being affectionate to me in the ways that *I* like." 

That doesn't sound peaceful. It sounds like hidden anger. 

I can understand that people resort to these types of behaviors when they are frustrated and don't know what else to do. It just doesn't sound happy and peaceful. 

I'm not trying to dis you, sir. I feel for your situation. It sounds painful. I'm sorry. I wish that counseling could help you personally find a true path to happiness.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The lack of nurturing was apparent when we had the girls, she was basically not very involved. I mean, she would do something here and there, recitals etc but the day to day or sick care, nope. 

Fast forward to 2015. Trigger finger wasn't a big deal but cataracts... I absolutely hated putting drops. And it was a challenge doing things with one perfect eye and one -10. And attitude not conducive to improvement.

I did some fishing expedition discussions and found out her big fear was that she'd have to play Florence Nightingale... Given her family history, let's just say it was a no go. Her father literally let her mother perish from heart disease... A fitting end I suppose but I wasn't too keen on testing the waters.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> Because it sort of sounds like a passive-aggressive thing - like, "I'm going to pretend I'm not mad or hurt about the no/low sex but I'm going to get my message across by not being affectionate to her in the ways she likes because she's not being affectionate to me in the ways that *I* like."
> 
> That doesn't sound peaceful. It sounds like hidden anger.


BTDT, it was not very conducive to getting laid. And apparently I’m not very good at pretending, lol. That was me, FSJ’s MMV.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This totally made sense to me. 




john117 said:


> The lack of nurturing was apparent when we had the girls, she was basically not very involved. I mean, she would do something here and there, recitals etc but the day to day or sick care, nope.
> 
> Fast forward to 2015. Trigger finger wasn't a big deal but cataracts... I absolutely hated putting drops. And it was a challenge doing things with one perfect eye and one -10. And attitude not conducive to improvement.
> 
> I did some fishing expedition discussions and found out her big fear was that she'd have to play Florence Nightingale... Given her family history, let's just say it was a no go. Her father literally let her mother perish from heart disease... A fitting end I suppose but I wasn't too keen on testing the waters.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> The lack of nurturing was apparent when we had the girls, she was basically not very involved. I mean, she would do something here and there, recitals etc but the day to day or sick care, nope.
> 
> Fast forward to 2015. Trigger finger wasn't a big deal but cataracts... I absolutely hated putting drops. And it was a challenge doing things with one perfect eye and one -10. And attitude not conducive to improvement.
> 
> I did some fishing expedition discussions and found out her big fear was that she'd have to play Florence Nightingale... Given her family history, let's just say it was a no go. Her father literally let her mother perish from heart disease... A fitting end I suppose but I wasn't too keen on testing the waters.



You can’t know for sure until it happens...and it may then be too late. It must be weird spending almost a life time together to then realise they are not the person who you thought they were.
Empathy (or lack of it) is a big one.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

M2 and I are 56. 

Last night I got the dreaded question: If you were with someone new, younger and hotter, would you want them - more. Significantly more. 

So I did the thing I learned in media training. Talked about what an interesting question it was, while scrambling for a survivable non lie. 

Then I said: if I was with the version of you I met 30 years ago, yes I would feel more desire. 

Got a big eye roll.

Later I said: Anyone can find a shiny new toy, especially if you bring a wallet to the toy store. But if you are in love with someone, you don’t look for new toys.







happiness27 said:


> I think what I'm saying is that if a spouse is UNHAPPY with sex, then we've discussed solutions: marriage counseling, sex counseling and some out of the box solutions which most people wouldn't likely go for (but some couples do).
> 
> If those don't work, then the greater and more difficult solution of divorce IF the sex issue is *the* priority. And, again, we are talking about a baseline of a couple that otherwise gets along but the withdrawal of sex all by itself with no other issues being a problem.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> M2 and I are 56.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah...that’s not a question, it’s a trap! (Like “does my butt look fat in this”...)
You have to always try and answer humorously, if you want to survive or give a “Jewish answer” (turn the answer into a question): 
“but would she want me? In which case you have nothing to worry about!” Or “she may be young & hot but won’t have any of your sexperience to please me with”.

I hate it when they do this. No answer will be good enough or make a difference anyway.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> You can’t know for sure until it happens...and it may then be too late. It must be weird spending almost a life time together to then realise they are not the person who you thought they were.
> Empathy (or lack of it) is a big one.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, my dad was 55 when he had a heart attack. Mom literally stayed with him for a month at the hospital (nice insurance ). He took care of her thru lots of medical problems too, including 2 bypass surgeries. 

At 30 or 40 you don't have this info unless a baby grand falls on you like in the cartoons... As you grow older and start getting omens, you may understand it better.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

The second answer is better:wink2:

The question is invalid, the only reason someone younger and hotter would be interested is what, my money? 

The pairing of younger and hotter isn't even right. Younger and actually interested in sex? >

Up until a couple years ago I'd have had no problem denying the whole question honestly. I still thought there was something I could do to wake up her desire, silly me. 

Now I know better, got her off 'once a month if you are lucky' but best not to ask that question because I just might answer it. 




MEM2020 said:


> M2 and I are 56.
> 
> Last night I got the dreaded question: If you were with someone new, younger and hotter, would you want them - more. Significantly more.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Prime,
It felt more like a request for reassurance than anything else. Though, I admit to having to apply the entirety of my (50/50) Ashkenazi/Germanic genome to the pseudo real time response. 

At some level she understands I didn’t marry her because she was hot (she was). I married her because she was: good, smart, playful, disciplined. Truly an exceptional companion.

Truthfully, I didn’t fully realize how exceptional a companion she was, until our sex life went from being ‘core’, to peripheral. 






inmyprime said:


> Yeah...that’s not a question, it’s a trap! (Like “does my butt look fat in this”...)
> You have to always try and answer humorously, if you want to survive or give a “Jewish answer” (turn the answer into a question):
> “but would she want me? In which case you have nothing to worry about!” Or “she may be young & hot but won’t have any of your sexperience to please me with”.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Prime,
> 
> It felt more like a request for reassurance than anything else. Though, I admit to having to apply the entirety of my (50/50) Ashkenazi/Germanic genome to the pseudo real time response.
> 
> ...



Of course it’s for reassurance but as you have found (with the eye roll), no answer will prove satisfactory to a question like this...

The reason I react ‘allergically’ to such questions is because my wife asks me those periodically...and I know she is not really listening to the answer. I can’t remember the last answer I gave her (something along the lines of “can we keep her as our personal sex slave then?” while undressing her). 
Maybe you managed to satisfy her with your answers. I know mine wouldn’t be.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Maybe the dissatisfied partner would become angry and discontent and stop behaving with love towards the other partner - then a snowball effect of the partners not getting along, and the sexual incompatibility blossoming into a greater discontent in more areas of the relationship, e.g., *"she isn't going to have sex with me as often as I want so I'm going to stop giving her affection in other ways" as a means to manipulate or pressure the LD partner into having sex more often.*


So I am guessing that in marriages when a sexual imbalance occurs that all forms of frustrated behavior can be construed as manipulation? To me what you just described is someone in a relationship feeling hurt and wanting to inflict pain as a way to be understood (perhaps in kind of a revengeful and passive aggressive way).

I would like to point at that spouses that desire less sex are also equally as guilty of this manipulation you speak of! "She wants sex with me tonight, so I am going to start an argument as a way to avoid intimacy because that is easier than just saying no to her advances for intimacy." Would that be considered a form of manipulation? Especially if there was no real basis for an argument to begin anyway. This is a common tactic for low desire spouses to avoid rejecting their spouse. 

*In my opinion there are no forms of manipulation when it comes to trying to be closer to your spouse and improve intimacy. There are however tactics and self defense mechanisms that both use to avoid rejection.* Thus the purpose of this thread. I feel that there are times when the idea of intimacy needs to be rejected and couples need to be open and honest so that it is understood that they are not rejecting each other. 

A husband with ED may feel ashamed and purposely avoid intimacy via all sorts of tactics. His wife may be very aggressive to initiate intimacy in such a way that this husband will have a more and more difficult time employing a tactic to avoid intimacy. This is not manipulation. It is both trying to find ways to avoid rejection and just being honest about what is going on in the relationship. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe the dissatisfied partner would become angry and discontent and stop behaving with love towards the other partner - then a snowball effect of the partners not getting along, and the sexual incompatibility blossoming into a greater discontent in more areas of the relationship, e.g., *"she isn't going to have sex with me as often as I want so I'm going to stop giving her affection in other ways" as a means to manipulate or pressure the LD partner into having sex more often.*
> ...


Tactics and self defense mechanisms are things that can be unveiled in therapy for the dysfunctional devices they are.

There are better ways to work things out or help individuals define the best course of action for themselves as individuals and/or as a couple.

What you have described is exactly why couples should seek outside counseling rather than limp along throwing "tactics" at each other as expressions of their hurt and anger at each other.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If the other person is hell bent on the status quo you haven't got much chance of achieving anything together so the ball is in your court. 

Not every couple is the lovey dovey let's go to MC then Starbucks then wild monkey sex types. Would be great if it was....


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> If the other person is hell bent on the status quo you haven't got much chance of achieving anything together so the ball is in your court.
> 
> Not every couple is the lovey dovey let's go to MC then Starbucks then wild monkey sex types. Would be great if it was....


You're right. Some couples are in escalating dysfunctions until they either divorce or worse.

My husband and I, being in professions that responded to these worse case scenario escalations are quite aware that civility is the best route. Dysfunction can get really ugly.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Not every couple is the lovey dovey let's go to MC then Starbucks then wild monkey sex types. Would be great if it was....



Maybe not in that particular order...



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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> john117 said:
> 
> 
> > Not every couple is the lovey dovey let's go to MC then Starbucks then wild monkey sex types. Would be great if it was....
> ...


Why not? Starbucks after counseling, and before sex... use the caffeine to fuel the monkey sex.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Tactics and self defense mechanisms are things that can be unveiled in therapy for the dysfunctional devices they are.
> 
> There are better ways to work things out or help individuals define the best course of action for themselves as individuals and/or as a couple.
> 
> What you have described is exactly why couples should seek outside counseling rather than limp along throwing "tactics" at each other as expressions of their hurt and anger at each other.


Exactly, I agree! But at no time were these tactics a form of manipulation to get closer to one another for more sex. However I do not really see these behaviors as a dysfunctional device. It is only natural the someone might try and defend/protect themselves when they are hurting and/or vulnerable. 

For those where therapy is not an option, one of the two has to recognize that anger and tactics to avoid rejection are the masks worn by vulnerability. Once you can see through that, you have something to work with to improve the relationship. Unfortunately such behaviors then come across as if immature and selfish. But yet it is recognizing an unappeasable person's selfish needs (LD spouse) as a key to get closer and break down emotional barriers. 

And for those where therapy is an option. Some will see "better ways to work things out or help individuals define the best course of action for themselves as individuals and/or as a couple" as just silly nonsense. Kinda like going to class enthusiastically but never bothering to actually do the homework. Ultimately in that situation it comes down to one person to work on improving things, and that is the person motivated by desire.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Caffeine then monkey porn sex may, just may, avoid MC trip.

And it may be, either W or H may just be bad at sex in current phase of relationship, that communication may improve, confidences restored, all happy.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Why not? Starbucks after counseling, and before sex... use the caffeine to fuel the monkey sex.


That only works if the counselor just forbid sex as a way to help work through problems!


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Truthfully, I didn’t fully realize how exceptional a companion she was, until our sex life went from being ‘core’, to peripheral.


That sound cool. Care to elaborate on the "to peripheral"?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> M2 and I are 56.
> 
> Last night I got the dreaded question: If you were with someone new, younger and hotter, would you want them - more. Significantly more.
> 
> ...



My wife loves to ask me this same question. I have no problems answering... "You mean someone full of nonsense hopes and dreams that will blame and terrorize me with anger and frustration when I make none of that come true for them? No thank you! I like living in reality with you very much were we work together as a team and still manage to have a beautiful family together as imperfect as we all are."


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> I am only speaking for myself, and not in the hypothetical, as this scenario has been played out in my marriage, and to some degree still does in far less dramatic cycles than in the past.
> 
> The short answer is yes. But for me, if my wife stopped sex completely and made it clear it was completely off the table (by choice rather than by medical reason), I would end the marriage.
> 
> ...





In Absentia said:


> This is exactly how we were until she decided no more sex...





happiness27 said:


> I think what I'm saying is that if a spouse is UNHAPPY with sex, then we've discussed solutions: marriage counseling, sex counseling and some out of the box solutions which most people wouldn't likely go for (but some couples do).
> 
> If those don't work, then the greater and more difficult solution of divorce IF the sex issue is *the* priority. And, again, we are talking about a baseline of a couple that otherwise gets along but the withdrawal of sex all by itself with no other issues being a problem.
> 
> ...


In all of these, even Farside what I worry about and could not tolerate is... is the LOVE real or convenient?

Of course I am simplistic so bare that in mind but to me, the lack of desire/low sex, baring some medical or emotional condition, is a symptom of a love that I don't want to be a part of. 

Some see sex as not that important, OK, but even for the most low drive people there must be some type of need for closeness and even a need for sex. 

I believe HD and LD people should not be married, but I also believe that people stay in a relationship for comfort and convenience when they are not really in love with the person. 

While understanding that I am an outlier, I still believe that is desire is low, overall the level/type of love is also low on the other persons side of the street. 

Some may find this OK, or just live with it, but I cannot. Again, simplistic I know.

But sometimes the clearest answers are the most simple...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Some people don't give sex a lot of importance. To me, it was important, but not _that_ important. As we all know, it becomes very important when we get very little. If you find the right balance, then you'll be ok.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

The passive-aggressive reaction is both manipulative and self-protecting. That is why it is such an attractive option when one is a frustrated HD who doesn't want to cheat or divorce. Which is why we see so many frustrated HDs select this behavior. Of course, very often it will not result in more (or even the same amount) of sex. But it does move toward a situation where the scales are more balanced.

In many cases the power imbalance bothers the HD as much or more than the lack of sex.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Convenience? No. 

My wife and I have fun together. We are great friends with periodic 'benefits'. 

For many years, my life was driven by the pursuit of women, to include my wife when we were married. But it was driven by a crazy need for something...acceptance...conquest...to prove I was "something" enough...what that something was I have no idea.

That "something" isn't driving my life any longer, so my need for sex has diminished along with it.

It is hard to explain. There are just other things that are more important. 

That said, I am also not at zero for frequency, which would definitely change things. 



BluesPower said:


> In all of these, even Farside what I worry about and could not tolerate is... is the LOVE real or convenient?
> 
> Of course I am simplistic so bare that in mind but to me, the lack of desire/low sex, baring some medical or emotional condition, is a symptom of a love that I don't want to be a part of.
> 
> ...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Exactly, I agree! But at no time were these tactics a form of manipulation to get closer to one another for more sex. However I do not really see these behaviors as a dysfunctional device. It is only natural the someone might try and defend/protect themselves when they are hurting and/or vulnerable.
> 
> For those where therapy is not an option, one of the two has to recognize that anger and tactics to avoid rejection are the masks worn by vulnerability. Once you can see through that, you have something to work with to improve the relationship. Unfortunately such behaviors then come across as if immature and selfish. But yet it is recognizing an unappeasable person's selfish needs (LD spouse) as a key to get closer and break down emotional barriers.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure when therapy isn't an option. Are you speaking of unaffordable? Or when one person refuses to go?

Therapy isn't "silly nonsense" - I really take exception to this statement because it's dangerous thinking that can lead people away from considering a therapy option. This happened to my first husband. He desperately needed therapy because he had some serious deep-seated primary family issues where he was abused by his mother - which I did not find out about until we were separated and he was finally willing to try therapy for himself. 

But, then, he went to his primary care physician who told him that therapy was a waste of time. JEEZ-US!!!! And my husband was a psychology major of all things! Because of what this physician said to him, he never went to therapy again. He led a miserable life of limping through on dysfunction and died pretty much friendless. Only required family and a couple of former co-workers came to his funeral. It was incredibly sad.

I just want people to know, who may be reading this thread, that therapy IS a major option for both individuals and couples. Not all therapists are created equally and everyone should be aware that it's perfectly okay to look for a therapist until you find one that works for you. A great therapist DOES give homework and works towards goals - not someone who just sits there like a bump on a log every week.

I don't know where I would be in my life if it weren't for me seeking to improve and expand my perceptions and interactions in the world. 

Just the idea that *all* spouses who are, as is frequently labeled here on these discussions as "LD" are just selfish people surreptitiously committing evil upon their spouse by "withholding" sex is an error of logic if one doesn't verify through therapy and honest open conversations but, rather, to rely solely on one's imagination to determine a reality falls short of what the relationship could really be about.

To then, on top of that, employ manipulations and tactics to try and make the other spouse do what you want - well, for one thing, it's just not going to work - because no one is operating from a standpoint of really knowing what is going on inside the other person. 

There are all kinds of reasons why people do or do not have sex of XYZ frequency.

People who want to have sex every day or several times a day or some definition of "HD" - are they truly "normal" or are they using sex as a way of expressing an avoidance of feeling various emotions? Do YOU know what is really going on with you that drives you to think about/want sex at a high frequency? Or is it good enough to just say "It feels good"? I make no judgement in asking this - but asking the question reveals something about each person. Some people find sex a stress release, an emotional problem solver. What if that person, once in awhile, stopped and took a look at feeling the feelings they are avoiding by using sex as a problem solver and stress release? What's going on behind that? If a person doesn't care to examine that, then that's how they want to live their life. But for the person who takes a closer look, I think there are some interesting things to discover.

For people who avoid sex or have infrequent sex...what's going on for them? Do they not enjoy it? Have they been conditioned to think of sex as wrong or bad? Do they need to communicate something to their partner about what would improve their outlook towards sex? Does the couple need to work on how to satisfy the so-called "LD" partner sexually?

I know that, for me, as a woman growing up, no one ever discussed sex with me. I had zero idea what went on during sex, either for me or for a man. It was in my late 40s before my husband explained his views on sex vs my views on sex. He wanted sex every day (didn't tell me) and I had sex when we had time and I felt like it, which was probably once a week or so. It wasn't until we began conversations about sex that we began to interact differently. My naive upbringing was also infused with "good girls don't have sex until they are married" - which created an inhibiting atmosphere around sex. Everyone else in the world was making decisions on a social level about how women should behave regarding sex.

If I understand these discussions correctly, women in marriage should switch off the social pressure of being a good girl who doesn't have sex to then having a voracious sexual appetite - a lifetime of conditioning should just somehow magically be shut off in favor of the opposite. To give you an idea how bad things were - I had no idea a woman had a hymen and that the first time, it would hurt and she would bleed. What if your D tore and bled the first time you had sex? How do you think that would feel? Then, after that, everything is a secret, because it's a sin. I had the wherewithal to get birth control from my family doctor - but my mom found my pills and made me feel ashamed for having sex. Then there was the childhood SA that I had endured. All my thinking about sex was a ball of confusion. I was limping along in life the best I knew how but how I dealt with it was dysfunctional - until I got outside help from professionals.

Do I think therapy helps couples examine these issues? Yes. I think it takes a talented, qualified, experienced marital counseling to help couples come to a greater understanding and appreciation of how they each came to their present thinking and behavior. 

I've spent a lifetime on this and I now have a successful loving relationship. But it was very hard work and very difficult. Nothing was therapy> starbucks > monkey sex. It was mistakes, pain, getting back up and working at it. If I summarize here, it is for the sake of space. I could fill multiple volumes of the work it took to get to where I/we are today. We aren't jerking each other around with manipulations and unhappiness. We are enjoying our older years together, grateful for having a partner we understand and cherish. And I'm deeply grateful for our marriage counselor for having faith in us as a couple to lead us into understanding each other.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Convenience? No.
> 
> My wife and I have fun together. We are great friends with periodic 'benefits'.
> 
> ...


I'm impressed by your insights and sage retrospect.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Therapy isn't "silly nonsense" - I really take exception to this statement because it's dangerous thinking that can lead people away from considering a therapy option. This happened to my first husband. He desperately needed therapy because he had some serious deep-seated primary family issues where he was abused by his mother - which I did not find out about until we were separated and he was finally willing to try therapy for himself.
> 
> But, then, he went to his primary care physician who told him that therapy was a waste of time. JEEZ-US!!!! And my husband was a psychology major of all things! Because of what this physician said to him, he never went to therapy again. He led a miserable life of limping through on dysfunction and died pretty much friendless. Only required family and a couple of former co-workers came to his funeral. It was incredibly sad.


I completely agree with everything you said. 

I have experience with therapy in my family and it indeed has been extremely helpful. Unfortunately not all therapists are equal nor do primary care physicians fully understand the respective behavioral health issues when making referrals. 

What is the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist that both have a PHD? Not many people know. A healthcare provider will mostly understand that one can write a prescription and the other can not. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

john117 said:


> Well, if it was this easy, would we have rampant divorce, rampant adultery, and a large number of dating sites all catering to those who don't think it's easy?
> 
> As I've said many times, your specific case, while heartwarming, isn't quite the rule. It isn't in scope either. The scope of marriage is a legal one as much as you seem to ignore it.
> 
> You have a very narrow range of applicability in your case. Not a general case.


No disrespect, M is a legal case but so is divorce a legal case. M gets more complicated as two lives become more intertwined, as it should in a loving M. 

D isn't a first choice for the most part until there are cracks in the whole relationship but after many patch jobs by both, one or the other says no amount of patching helps and begins to repair their individual foundation, and so D becomes more desirable even though potentially more short term hassle and emotional trauma.

But just saying bluespower doesn't recognize M as a legal arrangement doesn't jive.

He knows. He's been through it. I'd think it wasn't something that he initially wanted to do. I have compassion for his earlier D. He weathered it.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

john117 said:


> The nurturing part was something you don't think about unless you've seen your parents do. In my case I did notice she wasn't involved with her daughters much if at all, but when I had 3 surgeries in 2015 it really became apparent. Now I'm not talking heart transplant... Trigger finger and 2 cataract surgeries... Whoa. Ouch. FML.
> 
> Same with exploring vs staying. Sex was irrelevant at this point.



Can't state absolutes; I didn't observe nurturing in my parents, far from it, but did in my grandparents.

And my mantra as adult/H/F, was to never be non-caring. That certainly hasnt/doesn't make me perfect, but has made me aware of different types of relationship interactions.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> Convenience? No.
> 
> My wife and I have fun together. We are great friends with periodic 'benefits'.
> 
> ...


Durn, very good look summary that just speaking for myself, I can relate to. And still struggle with intellectually.
@farsidejunky thanks for sharing.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> I just want people to know, who may be reading this thread, that therapy IS a major option for both individuals and couples. Not all therapists are created equally and everyone should be aware that it's perfectly okay to look for a therapist until you find one that works for you. A great therapist DOES give homework and works towards goals - not someone who just sits there like a bump on a log every week.
> 
> I've spent a lifetime on this and I now have a successful loving relationship. But it was very hard work and very difficult. Nothing was therapy> starbucks > monkey sex. It was mistakes, pain, getting back up and working at it.


I agree that every couple with a libido mismatch should try therapy. I also agree it is hard work and, for it to help, the person needs to be willing to do the work and make changes. I am sorry you suffered through SA and I am glad to hear that you found a way to reclaim your sexuality. It would be fabulous if every victim of SA did so. Unfortunately, many victims just can't tolerate the pain. They don't want to ever go back "there". Sometimes, the abuser "wins" by permanently damaging the victim. I hate when that happens.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

badsanta said:


> And for those where therapy is an option. Some will see "better ways to work things out or help individuals define the best course of action for themselves as individuals and/or as a couple" as just silly nonsense. Kinda like going to class enthusiastically but never bothering to actually do the homework. Ultimately in that situation it comes down to one person to work on improving things, and that is the person motivated by desire.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sums up our experience so far. It takes two really making an effort. I think in my case, in her mind there is something wrong with me because I’m not happy with our marriage. Even though she admits having intimacy issues, being love avoidant, can’t talk about sex, can’t take criticism, holds resentment about my job, thinks my needs are too much for her since she has to worry about herself and kids, etc. It’s just a lot of projecting as I don’t have the traumatic childhood she had. I get it, she’d rather ignore it than deal with it but that’s not a good deal for me. Probably on edge since she has abandonment issues and thinks she’s not goof enough and I’m headed out the door like her dad. I have to ask myself am I being loving and giving her space or enabling her?






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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"But just saying bluespower doesn't recognize M as a legal arrangement doesn't jive"

Semantics is your friend.

Does not recognize the difference between his situation and others' is more like it. 

If you have a cause like he did, you tend to see the signal as bail out at any cost. As would I. But that's not the case for many others.

There's a lot of different decisions involved. You simply can't understand another case as easily as you would your own. 

He's already seen that plentiful sex is no guarantee of marriage success. The opposite also holds.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> I completely agree with everything you said.
> 
> I have experience with therapy in my family and it indeed has been extremely helpful. Unfortunately not all therapists are equal nor do primary care physicians fully understand the respective behavioral health issues when making referrals.
> 
> ...


A psychiatrist has a medical degree - thus why they can prescribe medications.

Frankly, I'm not a fan of the mental health profession - there is a really big variance in the talent and abilities of various psychologists. Then, there are just some psychologists that fit better with some people and not others.

I've seen quite a few over my lifetime - most of them were only fair. That drove me to get pickier as I grew older. The last psychologist we have has several degrees of speciality and over 2 decades of specific experience as a marriage counselor. He was way smarter than me, able to track any direction of conversation and be the more mature, wise sage in the room. One of the things I've heard about how people pick a MC is that they have to respect the MC's abilities and intellect. Otherwise, the situation will not be compatible.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

aaarghdub said:


> Sums up our experience so far. It takes two really making an effort. I think in my case, in her mind there is something wrong with me because I’m not happy with our marriage. Even though she admits having intimacy issues, being love avoidant, can’t talk about sex, can’t take criticism, holds resentment about my job, thinks my needs are too much for her since she has to worry about herself and kids, etc. It’s just a lot of projecting as I don’t have the traumatic childhood she had. I get it, she’d rather ignore it than deal with it but that’s not a good deal for me. Probably on edge since she has abandonment issues and thinks she’s not goof enough and I’m headed out the door like her dad. I have to ask myself am I being loving and giving her space or enabling her?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Marriage relationships are certainly a journey. What we find out about ourselves from interacting with another person so intimately is just as interesting as what we find out about our spouses.

When I look back on our lives together, when we were in our 40s, we conducted ourselves much differently than we do now, in our 60s. We know our time together is getting shorter. We just don't have time to d*ck around anymore clinging to our old dysfunctions - and that's me talking about my own situation, not judging others here. We know that we want to spend our time together authentically as possible, really loving and giving with caring and compassion. There's going to come a day when we will no longer have each other to hold and talk to. I honestly didn't think about that when I was younger. We fought about petty things, we operated blind and struggling through disagreements so many times. We're really so done with that.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Remember my theory on self preservation neurons. You and him have plenty. Some don't.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> Remember my theory on self preservation neurons. You and him have plenty. Some don't.


You know, sometimes I think I just got really, really lucky - and other times I think about the woman who helped me look at myself and showed me how to draw the right person towards me. 

I remember talking to her about my husband (after he and I went out on our first date...) and I said something to the effect of: "Well, he's kind of, well, just a regular guy, kind of quiet, I don't know..."

And she called me out with: "Oh, you mean you've met a nice guy and you think you'll be bored. By all means, go back to your one night stands."

Me: .......


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My DD's experience suggests good ole dumb luck is all we need. She dated millionaire kid for 5 years and finally realized he had the intelligence of a hamster. 

DD moved ten hours away and met her match. An exceptional designer like her, but emotionally very stable (unlike her). Considering she has many of her mom's traits (and knows about it) she's done wonders. 

Now she has to work 20 hours a day while he only has to work 40 a week... He often cooks for her. Mies the cat adores him. He's hard working, and absolutely normal. 

That is dumb luck...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

happiness27 said:


> I would never allow someone to bully me into having sex...


Seriously, bullied? If I shouldn't feel rejected because you decline an invitation for sex, why do you get to feel bullied if I object to my wants and needs being so low on the list? Aren't you taking it too personally? I'm not going to force sex, but I'm not going to meekly wait until you decide it's convenient for you. Wouldn't it be better for you to find a way to stoke your own fires so that we're on the same page more often?

I honestly don't mean to be snarky. But you talking about how you won't stand for being bullied, while de-legitimizing a man's feelings of being rejected, is the most blatant example of the pot calling the kettle black I've seen in a very long time here on TAM.

ETA: I would never force anyone to have sex, nor would I be as blunt as the wording I used earlier about "needing to make it happen". But I surely would remind any partner that my needs are as important as hers, so she needs to make it a priority and not something that happens when she feels like it. And I would communicate gently, but unmistakably, when it had been too long.

One more thing: sometimes it seems like we fail to discuss a critical issue regarding sexuality. No one can make another person want to be in the mood. We are all independent people created with free will - just the way it is (and I would not have it any other way).

Knowing that, it's fair to conclude that I can't make any person want to be with me; all I can do is create an environment conducive to having a good sexual experience. I've had this issue with my GF once or twice. All I can do is express my interest in her, and make her feel safe and valued. It's up to her to set aside the time for me, not let any body image issues interfere with her desire level, not let our relationship be tainted by prior bad experiences, etc.

And, she really should be doing all of that proactively, so that I don't have to point out that it's been several weeks (or perhaps longer) that we've really connected well. So yes, if I have to call out a dry spell, it's going to be done - gently but firmly.


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

Make sex fun and people are more likely to want to have it. That goes for men and women.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Dusk said:


> Make sex fun and people are more likely to want to have it. That goes for men and women.


Yep.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

DTO said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > I would never allow someone to bully me into having sex...
> ...


So you agree that bullying isn't effective?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

aaarghdub said:


> I have to ask myself am I being loving and giving her space or enabling her?



My wife is very similar and has similar issues. You are not doing either things... it's not your fault. You can't fix her. She has to fix herself. Unfortunately, it looks highly unlikely. We are divorcing now.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> My wife is very similar and has similar issues. You are not doing either things... it's not your fault. You can't fix her. She has to fix herself. Unfortunately, it looks highly unlikely. We are divorcing now.


At IA,

Strength, encouragement, and compassion to you.

RR


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> At IA,
> 
> Strength, encouragement, and compassion to you.
> 
> RR



Thank you... I think I'm getting over it... slowly but surely... :smile2:


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I wanted to address something else about the topic of this thread - I feel like so much got side-tracked in the louder discussion about the justification of rejection and I still can't find a pathway to interjecting another, what I feel is a more successful, way through the rejection scenario.

For one thing, if anyone is willing to listen - women do have different approaches to sexual desire. That discussion can not take place unless BOTH parties are willing to listen to each other. If either party isn't willing to do whatever it takes (therapy, crucial conversations, "other" thinking, commitment to each other), then it's obviously not going to work. 

But, here's what I have to say: most women are not like men AT ALL when it comes to sexual desire. In some rare instances, they might be. But, overall, no. 

Personally, I have found this concept a very difficult one to convey. Most women are not going to (not out of stubbornness but, rather, out of physical and psychological makeup) respond to be told they had better pony up or ELSE. Instead, they are going to dig in and double-down.

When it comes to sex, women are a dimmer switch to a man's toggle switch. I have personally found that a man can't get out of his own sexual thinking - "Why can't she just get herself turned on? That's HER responsibility" 

How long does this thinking have to be unsuccessful before a man turns around and says "Okay, WHAT? What is it that has to happen?" and really, really listens?

I wish like the devil that I could just turn on like a toggle switch. I am so damned jealous that a man can just flip a switch and be ready for sex and then have a guarantee that he is going to have an orgasm 99.9% of the time. Truly wish that could happen for me. But, as I've explained to my husband, I am not built that way.

I have been very over-the-top clear with him what I need to stir my desire to actually have sex. It's not really that difficult but it's more complex than what it takes for him. Somebody here on TAM described it perfectly: it's a responsive desire to my husband having a running flirtation throughout the day...and I've been specific about how if he does a variety of touches and words that remind me of his affection and devotion to me, I respond in kind to that. 

I can't have an all-business day with him and then suddenly when our bodies hit the mattress - SEX! My mind is in dozens of different places and I don't have the ability to just turn all that off like he does.

When he is willing to go to these lengths to build trust and affection with me, I feel safe and loved - and I therefore FEEL like expressing our connection through sex. When I know it's my choice and I'm not being shamed or guilted, I feel very sexual towards him. The more he conducts himself like this, the more engaged I am with him and the more often I feel like expressing that connection through sex.

It's like the fable of the sun and the wind - who made a bet over a man wearing an overcoat. They both said they could get the man to take off his overcoat and the wind blew and blew and blew with gale forces...but the man pulled his overcoat closer to him and the wind was unsuccessful. The Sun came out, however, and shined down its energy upon the man and he became too warm to need the overcoat and took it off voluntarily.

When my husband makes the efforts to understand and implement the ways that I need to increase my sexual desire, I feel safe, loved and affectionate. When he is open and honest about his feelings and fears about sex, I trust him and respect him and I feel love and understanding. 

If he was demanding and belligerent and insisted to me that I "do it or else" - I am incapable of responding positively to that style of communication. I would feel afraid and distant and would need to react by protecting myself. I would be even afraid of being physical harmed - because unwilling sex hurts.

It is truly masculine and manly to be able to lure a woman you love into your arms willingly - and if she is still communicating with you, then she is into you. LISTEN to her. Don't demand that she be more like a man. She can't. It isn't how women are built.

The Don Juan's of this world, please speak up. You aren't just lucky. You have methods of behaving that make you successful. What are they?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"The Don Juan's of this world, please speak up. You aren't just lucky. You have methods of behaving that make you successful. What are they?"

Selecting partners from like minded population subsets seems to be the answer. All the Don Juan skills in the world won't help you score with the wrong subset.

Also, scope. Don Juan types know the limits of an LTR.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> "The Don Juan's of this world, please speak up. You aren't just lucky. You have methods of behaving that make you successful. What are they?"
> 
> Selecting partners from like minded population subsets seems to be the answer. All the Don Juan skills in the world won't help you score with the wrong subset.
> 
> Also, scope. Don Juan types know the limits of an LTR.


What's "LTR"?

You might be right that Don Juans can spot their own incompatibles...however, it would still be interesting to hear from men who have successfully worked with women who struggle with desire. 

My premise is that there are women out there who are afraid based on their past experiences with men - of trying again. For those men who are curious about women to the degree that they would be willing to set aside their own biases about how sex "should be" for women - and listen to what women are saying to the point that would be willing to adjust their own thinking and sexual interactions...I think it's an amazing thing to witness a LD woman open up like a flower when she is given an opportunity by a man who can tap into her locked doors of desire. 

I am NOT talking about hateful, mean abusive women. Such women exist - such HUMANS exist. But not every woman who suffers from LD is hateful, mean and evil. 

I am talking about women who are afraid, misunderstood, don't even understand themselves.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

LTR = Long Term Relationship


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> The Don Juan's of this world, please speak up. You aren't just lucky. You have methods of behaving that make you successful. What are they?


You said it earlier in your post and i've echoed those sentiments on TAM before. Women are different and express desire and initiation much differently than men. Many women in long term relationships need to feel safe being vulnerable, feel their feelings will be respected and that they are loved and sexy before they can let the tiger loose. This environment seems to me to be the environment that lets women express their sexuality in the way that is most comfortable to them. I believe that as males, we expect women to express desire and to initiate in the same way that we would and that is very different than how women will do it if given the environment to choose. I now find my wife to have responsive desire if I expect her to express desire in the way that I would. Without that expectation, I find that she initiates a lot more but does it in a more subtle and nuanced way. If I pay attention and listen to her without funneling everything through my male-centric expectations, I find that often she is subtly trying to seduce me most of the day when she wants sex. She's sometimes clumsy at it, which is sexy in itself, but she's never had a man allow her to learn how she feels comfortable doing it. We've always expected her to do it our way. I have no doubt that she has had some lovers who were great at the physical act but mentally, we have not been that good. I am learning to be her Don Juan by listening to her. 

That's my story...YMMV


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H,

This type response is childish. It is however hard to tell if you are intentionally antagonistic, or spectrum. 




happiness27 said:


> So you agree that bullying isn't effective?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I think when it comes down to it, what a lot of rejected spouses really want is validation. If they are not going to have sex, they at least want their very legitimate hurt and disappointment validated.

That this is so very impossible for some forum posters baffles me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

All significant relationship disconnects are fair game wrt:
- identification
- explanation
- prioritization

As to whether or not someone perceives my prioritization as bullying them - that is a big gray area. 

It’s coercive to say: I’m going to leave you unless, or I’m going to sleep with other people unless, or ....

But is coercion bullying? 

If it is physical coercion, it’s bullying and it’s criminal. But the other stuff - leaving or insisting on having an open relationship, are perfectly legal. 





DTO said:


> Seriously, bullied? If I shouldn't feel rejected because you decline an invitation for sex, why do you get to feel bullied if I object to my wants and needs being so low on the list? Aren't you taking it too personally? I'm not going to force sex, but I'm not going to meekly wait until you decide it's convenient for you. Wouldn't it be better for you to find a way to stoke your own fires so that we're on the same page more often?
> 
> I honestly don't mean to be snarky. But you talking about how you won't stand for being bullied, while de-legitimizing a man's feelings of being rejected, is the most blatant example of the pot calling the kettle black I've seen in a very long time here on TAM.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I wanted to address something else about the topic of this thread - I feel like so much got side-tracked in the louder discussion about the justification of rejection and I still can't find a pathway to interjecting another, what I feel is a more successful, way through the rejection scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Finally! A woman gets to mansplain! (And i don’t even get credit for it!)



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> But is coercion bullying?



Yes. Bullying doesn’t need to be physical.
Emotional abuse is just as bad. 
You people are talking past each other, getting hung up on trigger words...

H27 is trying to explain what works for her - and I think it is valuable to get the perspective form ‘the other side’ - even if it may not work for everyone.
While some seem to get hung up on words without taking in the whole message: you want your woman to be turned on, make a bit of an effort. Because she will respond, if you do it right. With the right woman....

It obviously will only work with women that are able to get turned on (in general or with that particular man).
Why am I not perceiving it as hostile? Is it a language thing?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

PigglyWiggly said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > The Don Juan's of this world, please speak up. You aren't just lucky. You have methods of behaving that make you successful. What are they?
> ...


This attitude is one that works and is successful.

If the end goal is to bring a couple closer together and both people what they want and need, then, ultimately, this is the end point of where I had hoped to take my contribution to this thread. Well said, sir.

Coersion may be a tactic that works on some people in a short term but it won't work in the long-term.

A coerced partner is going to react to protect herself, create a payback or else feel like a hostage and withdraw further.

A partner who feels respected, loved and understood has a greater potential of giving freely by way of trust and greater engagement.

It is good for couples to talk openly with each other about their wants and needs in a relationship - without expectations. Each person in the relationship still makes their own decision how and whether or not to meet those wants and needs. This is love given freely.

I have found that once an individual is secure within themselves, they actually have more to offer others and they get more of what they want...in terms of love, compassion and understanding. Secure individuals don't have to force their will upon another or connive, deceive or manipulate. Secure individuals are naturally more honest, trustworthy and therefore, attractive.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

You're distorting what I'm saying. My primary point is telling your partner "you're not meeting my need and need to try harder" is not bullying. Not letting your partner lie about the state of your relationship and "mate guard" for personal benefit is not bullying either. 

True bullying involves a threat of harm and removal of choice/free will. None of the above rises to that level. In the first scenario the LD partner has two choices: increase the quality and frequency of sex, or leave. The wife in the second scenario has a third option - stop pretending to have a happy husband and stop mate guarding.

What you are doing is taking conflict and calling it bullying, to advance your position that guys need to slow it down and run at the woman's speed.



happiness27 said:


> So you agree that bullying isn't effective?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes. Though my point was more direct. 

Relationships sometimes have an element of coercion to them. 

Pretending otherwise is dishonest. I’m going to do xyz unless your behavior changes - is a type of coercion. 

Maybe I’m just enforcing a boundary. Maybe I’m also bullying you. It depends on the situation. 





DTO said:


> You're distorting what I'm saying. My primary point is telling your partner "you're not meeting my need and need to try harder" is not bullying. Not letting your partner lie about the state of your relationship and "mate guard" for personal benefit is not bullying either.
> 
> True bullying involves a threat of harm and removal of choice/free will. None of the above rises to that level. In the first scenario the LD partner has two choices: increase the quality and frequency of sex, or leave. The wife in the second scenario has a third option - stop pretending to have a happy husband and stop mate guarding.
> 
> What you are doing is taking conflict and calling it bullying, to advance your position that guys need to slow it down and run at the woman's speed.


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

happiness27 said:


> I wanted to address something else about the topic of this thread - I feel like so much got side-tracked in the louder discussion about the justification of rejection and I still can't find a pathway to interjecting another, what I feel is a more successful, way through the rejection scenario.
> 
> For one thing, if anyone is willing to listen - women do have different approaches to sexual desire. That discussion can not take place unless BOTH parties are willing to listen to each other. If either party isn't willing to do whatever it takes (therapy, crucial conversations, "other" thinking, commitment to each other), then it's obviously not going to work.
> 
> ...


A lot of this is great feedback and I think it's a lot of what maybe my wife has tried to explain to me. I think where so many men get lost is that (and I'm speaking about my own experience) is that earlier in the relationship (the first 15-20 years in our case) she behaved a totally different way about sex (at least from my perspective.) She was forward, often direct about wanting sex or initiating, did things to seduce me, flirted and invited me to seduce her, was sometimes a little dirty or kinky, and overall the sex was exciting, rather frequent, pretty effortless, and downright compatible with a man's way of being up for it spontaneously. There didn't seem to be much of a dimmer switch. It was a simple ongoing attraction and occasional desire to have sex. Just touch her, kiss her, and if I made the moves, she was up for it.

The past 5 years, she is a different person when it comes to sex and much more like you just described. It's a lot of work and if I don't put in the work, it could be six weeks before it even occurs to her that we haven't had sex. It becomes demoralizing and depressing when your wife doesn't seem to care if you have a sex life or not. So here we are on TAM re-learning how to be husbands in a way that our wives will want.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Relationships sometimes have an element of coercion to them.



Some do. Does it work? Is it good for a marriage to use coercion? Are they supposed to work? Some relationships have other, more grave methods to them too...doesn’t mean it’s desirable to use them.

To me, this is a foreign language. If I want something to change in my marriage, I say it. I don’t start doing stuff to coerce my partner to change. I find this not just distasteful but also disrespectful. How low should one’s opinion of the partner be to presume they do not understand spoken words or unable to grasp the meaning?
Marriage is not a warfare nor a constant negotiation. At least not in my mind.
If it has to resort to that, then something is amiss.




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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

DTO said:


> You're distorting what I'm saying. My primary point is telling your partner "you're not meeting my need and need to try harder" is not bullying. Not letting your partner lie about the state of your relationship and "mate guard" for personal benefit is not bullying either.
> 
> True bullying involves a threat of harm and removal of choice/free will. None of the above rises to that level. In the first scenario the LD partner has two choices: increase the quality and frequency of sex, or leave. The wife in the second scenario has a third option - stop pretending to have a happy husband and stop mate guarding.
> 
> What you are doing is taking conflict and calling it bullying, to advance your position that guys need to slow it down and run at the woman's speed.


This is the full text of what you said in your original post here:


DTO said:


> H27,
> 
> The issue here is that you are implicitly making a value judgment about the importance of sex relative to non-sexual activities and/or interactions.
> 
> ...


If you are saying that you want to walk those statements back, okay.

And, yes, I am offering the perspective that guys who are finding successful improvement in their sex lives are making an effort to understand how their wives' sexual desire works - vs. coercion, e.g., being manipulative and/or saying forceful things to her like (your quote): "there are too many excuses. You need to make it happen, even if that means letting other stuff lapse" 

The reason I offer this perspective is not to argue - but because: IT WORKS and coercion and manipulation DOES NOT WORK.

If someone told you to take a road to a lovely mountain cabin but the route they gave you took you to a dead end and off a cliff...would you cling to that route and say "this is the route I know even though it takes me off a cliff" or would you change and take the route that ended at the mountain cabin and a romantic weekend?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Some do. Does it work? Is it good for a marriage to use coercion? Are they supposed to work? Some relationships have other, more grave methods to them too...doesn’t mean it’s desirable to use them.
> 
> To me, this is a foreign language. If I want something to change in my marriage, I say it. I don’t start doing stuff to coerce my partner to change. I find this not just distasteful but also disrespectful. How low should one’s opinion of the partner be to presume they do not understand spoken words or unable to grasp the meaning?
> Marriage is not a warfare nor a constant negotiation. At least not in my mind.
> ...


I do appreciate a partner who speaks up and speaks their mind: *"If I want something to change in my marriage, I say it."*

God, yes, please do.

Marriage that is a constant warfare is really unpleasant and uncomfortable. When things get to this point, I think therapy needs to come in to play. 

However, marriage DOES involve negotiation, and, while maybe not constant...people change over the decades and they change their attitudes, etc., so it's hard for things to remain a solid constant.

But if both people are conversing, that's still a successful situation. 

Life changes much as sometimes we wish it didn't. The old downtown isn't what it used to be, the music scene is different, our friends all moved to different places, family and friends maybe passed away. So, yeah, people do have to roll with the changes and sometimes this means re-negotiating with our spouse. 

You sound like a person with whom this wouldn't be a constant battle because you keep your cards on the table. I mean, if your spouse can trust you to speak up, then that's better than you not speaking up and having some simmering issues she doesn't know about.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Some do. Does it work? Is it good for a marriage to use coercion? Are they supposed to work? Some relationships have other, more grave methods to them too...doesn’t mean it’s desirable to use them.
> 
> To me, this is a foreign language. If I want something to change in my marriage, I say it. I don’t start doing stuff to coerce my partner to change. I find this not just distasteful but also disrespectful. *How low should one’s opinion of the partner be to presume they do not understand spoken words or unable to grasp the meaning?*
> Marriage is not a warfare nor a constant negotiation. At least not in my mind.
> ...


Great post throughout. 

I would add also how low does you opinion of your partner have to be for you to even think coercion is how you want to treat them? I wouldn't want to be with someone I was comfortable treating like that in the first place. I wouldn't even want to be with someone who would allow herself to be treated like that in the first place.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

A marriage forum that promotes coercion as a valid tactic? Bizarre.
Maybe I’m naive but I don’t understand how this is supposed to end well.
I was always taught: you can’t make someone love you. If you try (and have the power to make them pretend as if they do), it will come back and smack you on the ass eventually. And not in a nice way.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Look, I'm just going to throw this out there because I think it's important that couples understand the hazards involved in manipulation, coercion and passive-aggressive actions in a marriage relationship.

You all have probably seen show or read stories about crimes committed upon spouses. Many of these crimes were perpetrated based on greed - it quite often happens.

But many other such crimes are perpetrated based on escalating disagreements and how the couples reacted to those disagreements.

Anger is a very dangerous emotion. But anger is a MASK emotion. It's important to look at what is behind anger and to fully understand that anger is something reserved for when, as they say, we are truly being chased by a tiger - not an emotion that we react with when there are other viable, better options.

Anger masks: fear. Fear of not getting what we want, not getting what we feel we are entitled to, lashing out to protect ourselves against an aggressor who will truly cause us harm, fear of loneliness, fear of not being loved, fear of something in our past that threatened us.

Some of why I talk about marriage counseling or psychologists is that they are professionals at helping individuals discover what drives their emotions. It is a far better option to come to an understanding of ourselves and what motivates us to choose behaviors than it is to lash out blindly.

What may start out as coercion and manipulation - when met with an unsatisfactory result - CAN ESCALATE unless there is intervention. 

The actions beyond coercion and manipulation CAN end up in greater and greater pressure and force that can get completely out of control in a New York minute. 

Not that either my husband or I needed to have greater reference points for out of control anger, but in his profession as a police officer responding to domestics and my profession as a journalist responding to similar spot news events, we've seen our share of literal bodies and bloodbaths that resulted from couples who escalated dysfunctional disagreements. 

It needs to be firm in the minds of married couples that there truly are mature ways of dealing with disagreements and there are dysfunctional ways of dealing with disagreements. 

Choose the mature ways. Do not choose the dysfunctional ways. Telling a spouse to either pony up the sex or else is coercion. Coercion is dysfunctional. Telling a spouse that if they don't have sex with you often enough to your choosing then you are going to be distant and unaffectionate as a payback is manipulation. Manipulation is dysfunctional.

Going to marriage therapy and learning about oneself as an individual and then working together as a couple is a mature way of negotiating compatible solutions - EVEN if ultimately, one of those solutions is to divorce, amicably, when you can't reconcile the differences. The counselor MATTERS so never be afraid to shop around for the very best match for the couple.

My husband and I were a blended family. One of the very first things we did was acquire a counselor to help our family adjust. My husband and I have sought counseling many times over the years if and when we got stuck on something we couldn't resolve on our own. We also did/do work on ourselves individually. It always helps to have outside guidance and perspective.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

JamesTKirk said:


> A lot of this is great feedback and I think it's a lot of what maybe my wife has tried to explain to me. I think where so many men get lost is that (and I'm speaking about my own experience) is that earlier in the relationship (the first 15-20 years in our case) she behaved a totally different way about sex (at least from my perspective.) She was forward, often direct about wanting sex or initiating, did things to seduce me, flirted and invited me to seduce her, was sometimes a little dirty or kinky, and overall the sex was exciting, rather frequent, pretty effortless, and downright compatible with a man's way of being up for it spontaneously. There didn't seem to be much of a dimmer switch. It was a simple ongoing attraction and occasional desire to have sex. Just touch her, kiss her, and if I made the moves, she was up for it.
> 
> The past 5 years, she is a different person when it comes to sex and much more like you just described. It's a lot of work and if I don't put in the work, it could be six weeks before it even occurs to her that we haven't had sex. It becomes demoralizing and depressing when your wife doesn't seem to care if you have a sex life or not. So here we are on TAM re-learning how to be husbands in a way that our wives will want.


I don't know how old you guys are - and this is a discussion you and your wife may have had already. But, for women, the world out there is tipped in the balance of the young. Follow that with, women are socially judged on their looks. Then, even if your husband doesn't use it or appear to react to it lustfully, pretty much everywhere you look are images of young, beautiful, sexy, scantily clad women and a generally accepted man response of ogling them.

The effect of this on a woman who is aging silently saps her self-esteem. I say silent because many women will seem not to be effected by it. But, I listen to women...my women friends and I watch women in general...the stars and celebrities with all their plastic surgery trying to cling to being viable in their professions that worship the young. Putting all of this together, one of the first things I am going to suspect in a woman who was formerly eager sexually but, who has grown more distant with age is: she doesn't think she's sexually attractive anymore.

Enter the poor guys/husbands of these women and many of them are baffled because...she's not talking about it and he doesn't see what the problem is if he's still attracted to her. 

An error that can happen here is that the guy will start focusing on "What's WRONG with me? Does she not love me anymore?" when, in fact, the problem isn't him - it's HER view of herself. 

I don't know how guys think when they look at themselves aging. I don't know if they feel the same level of loss that women do. There seems to be a bit more support for men aging than for women aging. 

But...I may be off-base bringing up this issue as a point of consideration but maybe there are completely different things going on with her...

You sound like one of the great guys willing to reach across the gender divide.

I have a childhood girlfriend whose husband dumped her for a 20-something younger woman after my friend turned 50. He told her: "You don't look like you used to." Ugh. Brutal. Ya hope that doesn't happen to the majority of marriages, but, it's probably a factor in a pretty strong percentage of them.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I would add also how low does you opinion of your partner have to be for you to even think coercion is how you want to treat them? I wouldn't want to be with someone I was comfortable treating like that in the first place. I wouldn't even want to be with someone who would allow herself to be treated like that in the first place.



On the other hand, if you are continuously treated badly in one aspect or another, it does kill the desire to do something nice for your partner. In other words, you get hit on the head a couple of times, you learn to duck quicker. So maybe sometimes you have no choice but to show/express what/how you feel about something which I think is normal). But it’s a far cry from coercion.

However preempting this and acting a certain way to get something in return (the old tit for tat); I would find playing those games odd. It’s always dangerous to assume you are the smartest person in the room (you often aren’t); best to just be open, especially with the person who is supposed to trust you. Once you cross into the ‘sneaky’ land, it’s difficult to bounce back and re-establish that trust.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> You sound like a person with whom this wouldn't be a constant battle because you keep your cards on the table. I mean, if your spouse can trust you to speak up, then that's better than you not speaking up and having some simmering issues she doesn't know about.



We certainly ‘speak up’ and have fights, just like anyone else. But we don’t really do a lot of mind games or at least those fights are quite straightforward and don’t usually last longer than 24 hours...so this whole coercion theory doesn’t make sense to me.

I think it’s important who you partner up with (obviously). I have known girls who were all about mind games; and this can be hell...
I always avoided personalities that hold onto grudges and never let anything go or build up ploys of revenge in their head, for any minor issue ever caused to them. Holding onto this negativity is a real killer that will crumble any relationship. Plus it’s unhealthy. 
There is some real Crazy out there....and the true colours show eventually one way or another. But there are also plenty of decent people. Just don’t get blinded by false pretences and look out for genuine qualities. (Sounds easy, right? )



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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

But he didn't bully her into submitting to sex.

The larger context of their situation is that she was using the marriage (and, by extension, him) to meet her needs, which we know include at least good social standing and/or the admiration and respect of her peers, etc. Because she was using him while not meeting his needs, she was spouting off lies to make herself look and feel good. THAT is the real dysfunction. 

And, he just refused to stop living a lie. He did not force anything on her. In fact, it appears that the opposite happened. She could have said that she wasn't interested in being the quality wife she held herself out to be, but instead decided that he was worth the effort. So, he apparently puts forth enough effort to be a catch and worth keeping around.

Since he's actually putting forth the effort, what's wrong with holding her accountable? Absolutely nothing.



inmyprime said:


> In what bizarro world does this tactic even work? (Bullying your wife into sex through public humiliation).
> Some of the pettiest things I have read.
> 
> Some people forget how to see the forest for the trees: the satisfaction of ‘winning’ against your spouse, seems to eclipse any other desire, such as basic right to one’s own happiness.
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

DTO said:


> But he didn't bully her into submitting to sex.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Like I said, that story was retold many times over it seems and it’s difficult to know what’s fact and what’s fiction with these things. 
Either way he should have just confront her about it - that’s how to hold someone accountable.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I wanted to address something else about the topic
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Thanks for that feedback, and you describe fairly accurately some of the dynamics in my marriage. My wife and I actually share the same career, so nonstop work and high stress projects tend to take a toll. When that happens I crave intimacy and my wife craves personal space to decompress. 

From what I have read in psychology books is that different people behave differently to stress when it comes to sexuality. Some people crave sex when stress and for others it is the exact opposite. This is a fairly gender neutral attribute, but as you imply perhaps it is more often that a woman may struggle to get aroused when stress more often than men. I once did a poll regarding this which (I think I deleted it or it got deleted as the discussion got inappropriate). I remember the result being gender neutral with regards to stress causing problems. So that right there is just a personality difference, and one that often creates frustration if one person craves sex when stressed and the other does not. 

Regarding the idea of a sexual "toggle" switch for arousal. YES, I admit I can flip myself on and off light a light switch. Quite easily as a matter of fact, and even if I am not really aroused I have no problems compelling myself to an orgasm although I am OK if it does not happen. My wife however does NOT like this!!! If we are going to have intimacy, she rejects any desire or arousal of mine that comes in the form of that I can easily toggle on and off. She prefers that I am legitimately in a sustained state of desire for intimacy, because this form of my arousal is what my wife has identified as what she responds to extremely well when we are together. In contrast if I toggle myself on and make it happen just because it is an opportunistic moment for us, she complains that she feels emotionally unsettled afterwards and that she can definitely tell the difference. 

As for being a Don Juan, my wife would probably try and take all the credit. According to her she knows when it will be really good and when to pass. I actually have to kind of admit that she might be right. As for when she rejects my advances, we communicate well enough now that I can very well let her know when she has misread me and do so with a great deal of confidence. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> how low does you opinion of your partner have to be for you to even think coercion is how you want to treat them? I wouldn't want to be with someone I was comfortable treating like that in the first place. I wouldn't even want to be with someone who would allow herself to be treated like that in the first place.


Exactly correct.

That is why I refuse to be with my wife. I don't want to be "with" someone I treat like that. I don't want to be with someone who would allow herself to be treated like that. So, when she offers, I turn her down.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Only difficult to understand if you bring a large political or gender skew to the table.

Otherwise, quite straightforward. 




MEM2020 said:


> All significant relationship disconnects are fair game wrt:
> - identification
> - explanation
> - prioritization
> ...





inmyprime said:


> Like I said, that story was retold many times over it seems and it’s difficult to know what’s fact and what’s fiction with these things.
> Either way he should have just confront her about it - that’s how to hold someone accountable.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> > I would add also how low does you opinion of your partner have to be for you to even think coercion is how you want to treat them? I wouldn't want to be with someone I was comfortable treating like that in the first place. I wouldn't even want to be with someone who would allow herself to be treated like that in the first place.
> ...


Well said. I think, yeah, we aren't robots and if we get our feelings hurt, there's ways that's going to come out unintentionally.

I've gotten to the point if hubs an I haven't had sex for a few days, I just come out and say "I'm horny so if I'm testy, that's what's going on."

In rather impressed that he keeps track in his head how much time has passed. We keep pretty close track of each other.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I don't know how old you guys are - and this is a discussion you and your wife may have had already. But, for women, the world out there is tipped in the balance of the young. Follow that with, women are socially judged on their looks. Then, even if your husband doesn't use it or appear to react to it lustfully, pretty much everywhere you look are images of young, beautiful, sexy, scantily clad women and a generally accepted man response of ogling them.
> 
> The effect of this on a woman who is aging silently saps her self-esteem. I say silent because many women will seem not to be effected by it. But, I listen to women...my women friends and I watch women in general...the stars and celebrities with all their plastic surgery trying to cling to being viable in their professions that worship the young. Putting all of this together, one of the first things I am going to suspect in a woman who was formerly eager sexually but, who has grown more distant with age is: she doesn't think she's sexually attractive anymore.
> 
> ...


Yikes that is painful.

Funny story. We married at 36/34 years old. So my wife comes into my "computer room" and sees me looking at porn pics of women 50+ years old and asks, "why in the world are you looking at those older women?" I respond with, "one day you will be one of those older women so i'm looking for pics of older women with your body type to see if my caveman brain can feel pure lust for a body like that." She asks, "well?" and I reply with,"oh yeah!! I've found 'you' up to the age of 65 so far that cranks my tractor.". She laughed and I don't think she has ever forgotten that.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> I have been very over-the-top clear with him what I need to stir my desire to actually have sex. It's not really that difficult but it's more complex than what it takes for him. Somebody here on TAM described it perfectly: it's a responsive desire to my husband having a running flirtation throughout the day...and I've been specific about how if he does a variety of touches and words that remind me of his affection and devotion to me, I respond in kind to that.
> 
> ...
> 
> The Don Juan's of this world, please speak up. You aren't just lucky. You have methods of behaving that make you successful. What are they?


So my ex husband was (is) a sex god. Just a pure natural. It used to be my wish to help explain to others what kind of behaviors a sex god exhibited, so I had a blog called I Married a Sex God. 

When you say the Don Juan’s aren’t just lucky, and you ask them to tell what their methods are, I have to say regarding my ex, if you asked him how he was so great at all things sexual he didn’t really know. He would shrug and say that’s just how I’ve always been. He would say he just learns his lover and goes for it and things always went well for him in sexual relationships.

That’s why I tried in my blog to describe what it looks like from my side, since he could not really offer any good insight as to his apparently natural skills. Here’s just a short list of the kinds of things I described...

Being highly sexual towards me on a daily basis. This took several forms but always included having his hands on me in a firm, sexual and authoritative manner, all throughout the day or evening. Sometimes it was a random dip in the kitchen (firm, authoritarian, sexual). Always it was sexual but respectful and loving (not crude or disrespectful).

Being very sexually self aware himself, knows what he likes and wants, knows how to get it.

Sexually open and giving as well as getting.

Sexually skilled (largely included physical abilities).

Sexually adventurous (we both brought many things out of our inner fantasy life to try and mine are the kinds of things that some men would run away fast from. He took my wildest craziest stuff and said “that all ya got?” as he pulled it off perfectly and rocked my world).

Sexually prepared (good Boy Scouts already have the towels by the bed, etc.)

And more.

For each of these main things listed above I had several posts trying to describe how and why what he does works for me. He kept me at a constant high level of arousal, similar to a man’s. Now I’m pretty HD on my own, but nothing like what he made me in our relationship. My responsive desire, I discovered, is apparently able to be a non stop flow under the right conditions.

I also wrote my thoughts about being a highly sexual woman, my own sex drive and skills, and other things.

It was just a fun little blog, and I don’t know that I ever actually helped anyone learn anything. But my desire was to explain for others what just the right amount of sexy looks like. Of course, with some partners, none of it would matter. And frankly, I think much of the dead bedroom situations are caused by a basic “not that into you” problem. I don’t really think that can be fixed.

My ex and I were totally into each other, and the great sex and daily electric vibe lasted throughout our 12 year relationship. There was not a moment ever that either of us didn’t feel “into each other”. Mad at each other, sure, even temporarily disgusted with each other. But always into each other, hot for each other, and loved each other.

I don’t think any amount of good sex god practice reading can fix a mismatch, a “not into” situation, or a truly LD partner situation.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> She prefers that I am legitimately in a sustained state of desire for intimacy, because this form of my arousal is what my wife has identified as what she responds to extremely well when we are together. In contrast if I toggle myself on and make it happen just because it is an opportunistic moment for us, she complains that she feels emotionally unsettled afterwards and that she can definitely tell the difference.


I'm curious about how common this is. I feel the same way as your wife. I've tried to describe to my husband what this is about and I'm not sure I'm being accurate. 

I've told him that for me as a woman, I have this sort of sixth sense or vibe about sex where I can tell when there is an off connection...and when that connection is off, it's, like...it bugs me.

For me, it can be unsettling to have disconnected sex. I don't know where else to go with that thought.

It's pretty cool that you enjoy such a wide berth with her. The payoff sounds good for both of you.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > I have been very over-the-top clear with him what I need to stir my desire to actually have sex. It's not really that difficult but it's more complex than what it takes for him. Somebody here on TAM described it perfectly: it's a responsive desire to my husband having a running flirtation throughout the day...and I've been specific about how if he does a variety of touches and words that remind me of his affection and devotion to me, I respond in kind to that.
> ...


But...wow...what a great illustration about a guy who brought so much effort and interest into the sexual vibe. Thank you for sharing this.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> I don't know how old you guys are - and this is a discussion you and your wife may have had already. But, for women, the world out there is tipped in the balance of the young. Follow that with, women are socially judged on their looks. Then, even if your husband doesn't use it or appear to react to it lustfully, pretty much everywhere you look are images of young, beautiful, sexy, scantily clad women and a generally accepted man response of ogling them.
> 
> The effect of this on a woman who is aging silently saps her self-esteem. I say silent because many women will seem not to be effected by it. But, I listen to women...my women friends and I watch women in general...the stars and celebrities with all their plastic surgery trying to cling to being viable in their professions that worship the young. Putting all of this together, one of the first things I am going to suspect in a woman who was formerly eager sexually but, who has grown more distant with age is: she doesn't think she's sexually attractive anymore.
> 
> ...


This rather baffles me. I have always had maximum attraction to women within a fairly narrow age band centered around my current age. Were my marriage to end, I'd be shopping for someone else in her 50s. The thought of setting up house with a 20something seems not only unseemly, but even a little perverse. 

I suppose that some men do this could be cause for some esteem issues, but that should only be the case if you are married to one of those self absorbed losers. My wife knows full well I find her more attractive today than when we got married 30+ years ago, so it baffles me when she frets about her appearance or wants to have some work done.

As to equivalency in guys, there is often a parallel, but not the same thing. Guys do have it easier appearance wise. Traditionally, middle aged guys have been considered good catches because they are at the height of their earning potential while middle aged women less so because their child bearing years are behind them. This relative level of perception of attractiveness is part of the biological imperative. Were only now starting to evolve beyond that.

What's more, time, and life itself, is kinder to mens bodies than women. No matter what, 50 year old breasts will not be as perky as 20 year old breasts, especially if they have been used for their primary purpose. But at 54, with a little extra time in the weight room, I can sport biceps and glutes that look pretty much the same as they did when I was 24. 

What gets a lot of guys as they age is not so much loss of attractiveness but rather a drop in performance. Even though I can continue to keep rather impressive looking muscles, I will never again be able to bench press 300lbs, or run a 6 minute mile or dunk a basketball on a standard 10ft rim. And just as society tells women youthful appearance is important, it also tells men youthful performance is important.We dont always handle this well either. Look at the explosion of action movies with older protagonists... for men it can be as fantasy more enticing than porn.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I've never initiated, and I've never ''rejected'' my husband. Although, there were times he wanted sex that seemed inconvenient. Maybe a good way to say it would be ''how about we postpone this to later?" And give a relatively good reason. But, keep your promise to your partner. Nothing would feel worse, than endless broken promises when it comes to intimacy.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Well said. I think, yeah, we aren't robots and if we get our feelings hurt, there's ways that's going to come out unintentionally.
> 
> I've gotten to the point if hubs an I haven't had sex for a few days, I just come out and say *"I'm horny so if I'm testy, that's what's going on."*
> 
> In rather impressed that he keeps track in his head how much time has passed. We keep pretty close track of each other.


I love the honesty and frankness. Now, check out what i was presented with on Sunday. I was watching pre-game before football started and my wife was upstairs for at least an hour. I hear the vacuum cleaner and the washer going so I know she is doing her Sunday cleaning. Keep in mind that nothing about sex has been said all morning. She comes downstairs and says, "In a few minutes, I'm going to come down here and give you a blowjob but if I get tired, I'm going to switch it to a handjob. After we watch the 1:00pm game , I want to see how I feel because that would be a good time for us to have sex. Is that ok with you?" I tried my best to play cool but i immediately started grinning like a jackass eating briars. She started laughing and wiggled back upstairs. I mainly attribute this to her tapering off of Fluoxetine and getting on Wellbutrin as we discussed in the other thread. And YES I am bragging because this was a big deal to me.

To H27 specifically, after going through the genital numbness and presumably the loss of libido yourself, I am sure you can appreciate how womanly she must be feeling to have her old drive and sensitivity back. It really makes me happy to see that pep in her step.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> This rather baffles me. I have always had maximum attraction to women within a fairly narrow age band centered around my current age. Were my marriage to end, I'd be shopping for someone else in her 50s. The thought of setting up house with a 20something seems not only unseemly, but even a little perverse.
> 
> I suppose that some men do this could be cause for some esteem issues, but that should only be the case if you are married to one of those self absorbed losers. My wife knows full well I find her more attractive today than when we got married 30+ years ago, so it baffles me when she frets about her appearance or wants to have some work done.
> 
> ...


Based on how you’ve described yourself, I don’t think you can relate to the average man’s body or how women may feel about it. If you are a tall, naturally fit and athletic (plus hard work!) bodied man, you don’t know how women respond to other types of male bodies. 

As for time being kinder to one or the other, seems largely a factor of lifestyle and genetics, and to me I see it evenly distributed. Mostly I notice the well preserved people, so I end up noticing both men and women who appear over 45 but look great. Bodies in particular are very responsive to regular excercise so no matter what age anyone is, if they are fit they look their best.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

H27:

The only problem with trying to "reach across the gender divide" is the competitive but low empathy partner. 

As I said before, I came to TAM in 2014 with a dysfunctional, sexless marriage. 

I spent the first six months reaching across the divide and carrying the relationship. I tried unsuccessfully (and selflessly) to help her/us through her laundry list of complaints, not just to improve sex, but to improve our marriage. 

What was the result? She moved the goalposts...every single time...followed by gaslighting, accusing me of having unhealthy sexuality, her words not matching her actions, and several other factors...because we (yes, we) agreed to vanilla sex two to three times per week, which proved to be too much for her, and when we did connect, it had to be quick, with a splash of occasional eye rolling...and the one time she told me to make it quick (which resulted in my telling her thanks but no thanks).

So, when you say that men should reach across the aisle, I believe they should...once...maybe twice regarding the same subject. The moment the goalposts get moved should be a full stop, followed by a reverse of direction into pursuing something (not someone) other than their wife. 

I will not reach across the aisle any longer, nor will I encourage men to do so more than once or twice. Somewhere in that process there is a fine line where the cost of crossing said divide is self respect. 

Nobody is worth that. Nobody. No marriage. No institution. Nothing.

So, the thought is to encourage folks to keep their eyes on their own paper. Communicate what is not working for you (the proverbial you). Prioritize your spouse to the point that you don't build resentment. Give them an opportunity to step up and make things better while you (again, the proverbial you) work on your own crap. 

If they have no interest in improving, then I would encourage the other spouse to move on. 

In other words, put your big boy/girl underwear/panties on and prepare to get to work, or don't bother. I value myself too much to carry someone else in a relationship, especially when that person shows themselves to be unwilling. 

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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> H27:
> 
> The only problem with trying to "reach across the gender divide" is the competitive but low empathy partner.
> 
> ...


I wonder how many people stick around way too long because they are scared of the answer they might receive if they ask,"Do you want this marriage to work?". I see so many that come here for advice and yet have never asked the pertinent questions.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

PigglyWiggly said:


> farsidejunky said:
> 
> 
> > H27:
> ...


Absolutely, good point. Establishing commitment is the first question. Without an unequivocal "yes", there's no point in going forward.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Only difficult to understand if you bring a large political or gender skew to the table.
> 
> 
> 
> Otherwise, quite straightforward.



Where’s the large skew? If both partners are not supposed to manipulate each other?

Are we talking about the ‘hypothetical’ story or the thread topic? I have a problem with these stories because they are usually very one-sided and already have a ‘skew’ to them, by their nature, often to illustrate a point.

On the face of it, that woman sounds like a completely superficial moron and anyone with some life experience knows that the reality is often more complicated. Ok, so he embarrassed her, so what? She still remains a moron, but now she is an embarrassed moron (because that’s how the story is told). Unless the person understands WHY something matters to the other person the way it does, that’s not progress: it’s a scored point, between two competitors, not partners.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Yikes that is painful.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny story. We married at 36/34 years old. So my wife comes into my "computer room" and sees me looking at porn pics of women 50+ years old and asks, "why in the world are you looking at those older women?" I respond with, "one day you will be one of those older women so i'm looking for pics of older women with your body type to see if my caveman brain can feel pure lust for a body like that." She asks, "well?" and I reply with,"oh yeah!! I've found 'you' up to the age of 65 so far that cranks my tractor.". She laughed and I don't think she has ever forgotten that.



If there is trust, you don’t assume crappy intentions therefore manipulation or coercion doesn’t even enter into the realms of the relationship. 
Now picture a different marriage, where the wife distrusts her husband. If she came here to vent that her husband was looking at porn pics of older women and she feels humiliated and had just about enough of this type of treatment, I bet that 99% of posters (including possibly myself) will be validating her feelings and telling her that she is perfectly within her right to leave or whatever.
There is no right or wrong; life is complicated. 
But you want to work on trust, no matter what it takes, because that is the foundation of every (successful) marriage. Everything else, are symptoms.
I can’t stand threads when one partner is bashing their other half and everyone stands in line validating it and cheering them on: how can one do this only knowing one half (if even that) of the story. It’s completely unhelpful and unproductive. 
There’s your real skew.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

On sexual skills: I don’t believe in this (up to a point). I have said it before, if you are basically not a complete imbecile and possess regular levels of understanding, empathy and compassion, ‘skills’ is something that’s largely irrelevant (once the basics are covered).

If you have a partner that completely adores and idolises you, finds you extremely attractive and is completely smitten by you, you cannot make a lot wrong in bed (or in fact otherwise). You will have such a bias in your thinking, you won’t know it.
The corollary of course is that if you don’t have those feelings towards your partner, you can have all the skills in the world, it’s not gonna do anything much in that constellation. (Of course it’s not so black and white but that’s the basic principle).

I never understood what it is my friends are talking about when they say ‘she’s really crap in bed’: the problem was obvious: they were not very attracted to them. And after I queried further what it was they disliked, it became obvious. I have been with girls I was not very attracted to and no matter what acrobatics they performed, if the chemistry wasn’t there, it’s just kind of crappy.

Some women are self aware enough to understand this: you often hear them say that it’s not the penis size but what it’s attached to that matters. Same goes for sex in general. You, as the participant, experience the sensation by PARTICIPATING in it: you are not the audience witnessing a performance. If you were, then I agree, performance variation would play a MUCH larger role.

And lastly: if you know your partner well enough and trust each other, ‘performance’ is fluid; you learn about each other and know what works and what doesn’t. You ‘improve’ together. Sex is the expression of love, sex doesn’t CREATE love. There is no skill that can.
Otherwise there are mechanical tools that will be much more efficient at this.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> This rather baffles me. I have always had maximum attraction to women within a fairly narrow age band centered around my current age. Were my marriage to end, I'd be shopping for someone else in her 50s. The thought of setting up house with a 20something seems not only unseemly, but even a little perverse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think there might be a few things going on and I’m going to be guessing. Apart from the obvious, superficial reasons (tighter bodies etc), when a man falls in love with a significantly younger women, perhaps his first instinct is to take care of her (paternal instinct) but is quickly replaced by lust. You often hear middle aged guys buying a Ferrari and getting a 20 something year old: maybe they feel they get a new lease of life to partner up with someone that much younger. The younger person has a whole life ahead of her and the man feels he can and wants to participate in it.

I think it’s ok for love to not really have age limits and I don’t have any special prejudices about it (apart form just generally, being pretty sceptical, but that’s regardless of age 

On balance, I think there are a few practical hurdles: the difference in interests and priorities may be too great to make it viable long term. The younger woman may want to start a family and the guy is already done with it. But if people are clear beforehand what it is they want out of the relationship, I don’t see the problem with it. 

Sure, there are much more men partnering up with younger women than the other way around and if it works for them, I don’t see a problem with that either.

As for age being kinder to men: it’s a biological reality that men tend to age better on average but then men don’t live as long. I imagine that since we both are ageing, I don’t especially foresee myself ageing especially better or loosing attraction (since we are ageing together). But of course I cannot predict what will happen exactly. She’s still incredibly hot at 36 and the sexiest woman I ever met.
And I have more grey hair than my wife already.
She found one and got freaked out...


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> If there is trust, you don’t assume crappy intentions therefore manipulation or coercion doesn’t even enter into the realms of the relationship.
> Now picture a different marriage, where the wife distrusts her husband. If she came here to vent that her husband was looking at porn pics of older women and she feels humiliated and had just about enough of this type of treatment, I bet that 99% of posters (including possibly myself) will be validating her feelings and telling her that she is perfectly within her right to leave or whatever.
> There is no right or wrong; life is complicated.
> *But you want to work on trust, no matter what it takes, because that is the foundation of every (successful) marriage*. Everything else, are symptoms.
> ...


You are so right about trust. I think many couples don't have real trust because you have to be vulnerable and exposed to have trust with your partner. This can be terrifying but it has to be done. I really believe the quote "Love is the absence of judgement". The fear of judgement is why so many are afraid of honesty.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

But they also need acceptance with trust.

For example, I trust my wife to help someone in need, even to her own detriment. It is in her make up.

I also trust that she will never be up for having sex with the lights on, no matter how much I would like to see her in addition to feeling and hearing her. 

So after exploring/testing some boundaries with the latter with little to no movement, I accept this is how it will be. 

That doesn't mean I have to necessarily remain married to her, because I can decide sex with the lights off doesn't work for me. But I have to accept her stance in order to even properly reach that decision.

This also ties into insecurity. Insecure me would believe she doesn't want to see me so she turns the lights out. Secure me realizes it is her issue to deal with, not mine, and if I am unattractive to her, she would say something.

And even if she told me, while it may hurt, that is okay too. Plenty of other women find me attractive and there are POF so to speak.


PigglyWiggly said:


> You are so right about trust. I think many couples don't have real trust because you have to be vulnerable and exposed to have trust with your partner. This can be terrifying but it has to be done. I really believe the quote "Love is the absence of judgement". The fear of judgement is why so many are afraid of honesty.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Like I have said multiple times on this thread, what many hurting, frustrated, rejected spouses really need is validation. They feel broken and in adequate and rejected. They need someone to say "I hear you and your hurt is real and legitimate."

There are a couple of continual posters on this thread who refuse to do that period I am not sure if they just lack the basic emotional capability to validate anyone else, or if they just insist on practicing the very passive aggressive behavior they claim to dislike. I wonder what it would take to get them to quit arguing and just say, I understand how much this hurts and I am sorry.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> But they also need acceptance with trust.
> 
> For example, I trust my wife to help someone in need, even to her own detriment. It is in her make up.
> 
> ...


Sex with the lights off....that seems like a long ways from having complete trust to me. She presumably showers with the lights on so that implies to me that she is worried about being judged by you. How long have you two been having sex?


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Like I have said multiple times on this thread, what many hurting, frustrated, rejected spouses really need is validation. They feel broken and in adequate and rejected. They need someone to say "I hear you and your hurt is real and legitimate."
> 
> There are a couple of continual posters on this thread who refuse to do that period I am not sure if they just lack the basic emotional capability to validate anyone else, or if they just insist on practicing the very passive aggressive behavior they claim to dislike. I wonder what it would take to get them to quit arguing and just say, I understand how much this hurts and I am sorry.


You've participated in this thread multiple times, you recognize the posters that need that validation so why don't you be the "someone" that offers them that? People get what they need and you've done a good thing. Instead, you've offered that "a couple of continual posters" must be passive aggressive or lack the basic emotional capability to validate anyone else. That's an ugly dichotomy you've offered and it looks like you are just lashing out again because you are still hurt by what your ex did to you.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

In your hurry to rebuke me, you have obviously neglected to read the entire thread. I have repeatedly validated the pain of people like myself who have been stuck in marriages full of rejection. But thank you for your input. It's not an ugly dichotomy. It's the truth. Someone who repeatedly argues and twists themselves backwards to avoid validating the pain of people who are rejected has to be doing it on purpose. And if they are not doing it on purpose, then they are not very emotional I perceptive. So I don't know which is actually worse, stubbornness or lack of perception, but it's not that hard to just stop needing to be right and tell people you are sorry they are hurting.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Can you clarify that question? If I were to answer it literally (which is how I interpret it), since our third date in 2002, but I would think there is more to it.


PigglyWiggly said:


> Sex with the lights off....that seems like a long ways from having complete trust to me. She presumably showers with the lights on so that implies to me that she is worried about being judged by you. How long have you two been having sex?


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> In your hurry to rebuke me, you have obviously neglected to read the entire thread. I have repeatedly validated the pain of people like myself who have been stuck in marriages full of rejection. But thank you for your input. It's not an ugly dichotomy. It's the truth. Someone who repeatedly argues and twists themselves backwards to avoid validating the pain of people who are rejected has to be doing it on purpose. And if they are not doing it on purpose, then they are not very emotional I perceptive. So I don't know which is actually worse, stubbornness or lack of perception, but it's not that hard to just stop needing to be right and tell people you are sorry they are hurting.


In my hurry to rebuke you, I thought that you said they needed "someone" to validate them. Now, you have said that you validated them. You are "someone" so it seems like mission accomplished. If you want to attack certain posters, have the balls to do it directly. If you want to have a pity party about how your ex made you feel, invite me. I like you and have lots of empathy and compassion to give.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > In your hurry to rebuke me, you have obviously neglected to read the entire thread. I have repeatedly validated the pain of people like myself who have been stuck in marriages full of rejection. But thank you for your input. It's not an ugly dichotomy. It's the truth. Someone who repeatedly argues and twists themselves backwards to avoid validating the pain of people who are rejected has to be doing it on purpose. And if they are not doing it on purpose, then they are not very emotional I perceptive. So I don't know which is actually worse, stubbornness or lack of perception, but it's not that hard to just stop needing to be right and tell people you are sorry they are hurting.
> ...


 Yes, the post above just oozes with empathy and compassion lol.

But I'll be more direct. There are a few female posters on this forum who make every single sex starved thread about consent and the right to say no and such. And because I believe they are all intelligent women, they know full well that none of those frustrated threads have anything to do with women not having the right to say no. I'm not sure why there is such an insistence on taking this tactic, but it is blatantly lacking in compassion. If you think it's fine to reject your partner repeatedly, then perhaps the best move is not to tell a bunch of hurting people that they are stupid for being and pay or that they are a bunch of bullies.

The only reason I mentioned my ex husband was because one of the things that people who have the capacity for empathy do is relate to another person's pain. It is easy to relate to another person's pain when you have experienced that same pain. This is psychology 101. No, I take that back. This is being a human being 1 or 1.

Does it make you feel better to single me out every time you think I am a little too aggressive?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> In your hurry to rebuke me, you have obviously neglected to read the entire thread. I have repeatedly validated the pain of people like myself who have been stuck in marriages full of rejection. But thank you for your input. It's not an ugly dichotomy. It's the truth. Someone who repeatedly argues and twists themselves backwards to avoid validating the pain of people who are rejected has to be doing it on purpose. And if they are not doing it on purpose, then they are not very emotional I perceptive. So I don't know which is actually worse, stubbornness or lack of perception, but it's not that hard to just stop needing to be right and tell people you are sorry they are hurting.



The thread didn’t really read to me as an argument, more like an exchange of ideas (at least up to this point) with a bit of talking past each other.
Us validating isn’t gonna change anything, will it? 
Also which part should be validated: sorry you might have to coerce your spouse in order to get what you want or sorry that you are looking at all the aspects except for one that really matters (how to work on trust).*

Who has anything to ‘gain’ from being right anyway?

*there’s a possibility I may have read those posts wrong. But some of the statements came across as very strong/hostile to me.

To me, this thread is not about whether it is right or wrong to reject or take rejection. It’s more about understanding what might go on on both sides. How else are you supposed to have empathy.

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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I think the part that got to me was this idea that if someone States they are not willing to continue to live in a sexless marriage, that somehow makes them a bully. That is not bullying. That is drawing a boundary. I did not get married to be celebate. You are free to be as celibate as you want to be, but it is not going to be in a marriage with me. There is nothing about that that is bullying. That is called having a personal boundary. Most normal people would agree that expecting to have a sex life while married is not some sort of horrible out of this world expectation. You can say no all you want to and that is your right. But you should probably stay single if that's the way you want to live.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> Can you clarify that question? If I were to answer it literally (which is how I interpret it), since our third date in 2002, but I would think there is more to it.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


That's 16 years. Does it not strike you as a lack of trust that the lights are still off? Presumably the lights are on with her Dr and ob/gyn so it is something she can cope with. Why no lights with the person who loves her the most and who would be the most charitable with any opinion? I don't understand. If you don't want to get into all that, I do understand that.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Yes, the post above just oozes with empathy and compassion lol.
> 
> But I'll be more direct. There are a few female posters on this forum who make every single sex starved thread about consent and the right to say no and such. And because I believe they are all intelligent women, they know full well that none of those frustrated threads have anything to do with women not having the right to say no. I'm not sure why there is such an insistence on taking this tactic, but it is blatantly lacking in compassion. If you think it's fine to reject your partner repeatedly, then perhaps the best move is not to tell a bunch of hurting people that they are stupid for being and pay or that they are a bunch of bullies.
> 
> ...


So why don't you approach them directly? "I'm not sure why..." You could ASK them. It looks like cowardice and that is what you said kept you in that bad situation with your ex for so long. Pm each lady and tell them this is what you perceive, it bothers you and you would like to understand their perspective.

I single you out because I really like you and don't want to see you perceived in a negative light when you want to inflict pain on others because you've been hurt.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I think the part that got to me was this idea that if someone States they are not willing to continue to live in a sexless marriage, that somehow makes them a bully.



Who said that though? 
What was discussed (recently) was the bit about using coercion as a valid and acceptable partnership strategy. And if we don’t admit it, then we are being dishonest.
Maybe there are many ways to skin a rabbit but that sounds wrong to me.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I have no problem digging into this.

Lights off for sex came about when we began restoring our marriage in 2014. 

As I see it, there are a couple of factors in play. First, she has been sexually assaulted in the past, so has a tendency to leap to ego protective measures. Second, she came from an abusive home with a domineering father figure. Third, she is 50 pounds heavier now than when we met. Further complicating the third is the fact that I am in a fitness instructor and in amazing shape.

The normal conclusion that even I would jump to when looking at the third factor would be judgment from the more fit partner. I go out of my way to avoid doing so. 

However, the entire thing is like a bucket with a hole in it; no matter how much I compliment her on her beauty, her inside voice is louder and speaks more often to her than my compliments. Nobody can compete with that.

This means she's projecting her self image into judgment from me. This is where I tie back into keeping your eyes on your own paper. I'm not going to argue with her over what she believes I'm doing when I'm not. That is her issue to deal with. 

I can either accept that about her, or not. But I'm not going to waste energy trying to make it better when she's not attempting to do so. 

Now...if she were in therapy, pursuing self improvement or fitness, or making an effort to actually address it, I would most certainly help her in any way that I could. 

But my efforts to help her in the past have been met with extreme resistance, where she literally tells me what I am thinking or feeling, despite what I am saying or doing. 

Again, like I stated earlier, I have zero interest in managing a difficult sub, which is essentially what it comes down to.


PigglyWiggly said:


> That's 16 years. Does it not strike you as a lack of trust that the lights are still off? Presumably the lights are on with her Dr and ob/gyn so it is something she can cope with. Why no lights with the person who loves her the most and who would be the most charitable with any opinion? I don't understand. If you don't want to get into all that, I do understand that.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Lights off for sex came about when we began restoring our marriage in 2014.


I don't know your story, and you don't have to answer, but what were you restoring it FROM? That may be a big part of the answer.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Who said that though?
> What was discussed (recently) was the bit about using coercion as a valid and acceptable partnership strategy. And if we don’t admit it, then we are being dishonest.
> Maybe there are many ways to skin a rabbit but that sounds wrong to me.
> 
> ...


It was the message I got from some of the posts - the idea that if you have a strong boundary with regard to this or make any type of ultimatum statement, you are a bully.

Now, there ARE ultimatum statements that are bad. For example, "If you don't put out I will find a woman who does" is not a boundary. It is just a declaration that you have crappy character and are willing to violate your wedding vows to gt what you want.

But saying, I will not continue in this marriage if my needs are not important is not coercion or bullying. It's just stating a boundary. The person hearing it has full choice. They might not like it, but they DO have a choice.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Based on how you’ve described yourself, I don’t think you can relate to the average man’s body or how women may feel about it. If you are a tall, naturally fit and athletic (plus hard work!) bodied man, you don’t know how women respond to other types of male bodies.
> 
> As for time being kinder to one or the other, seems largely a factor of lifestyle and genetics, and to me I see it evenly distributed. Mostly I notice the well preserved people, so I end up noticing both men and women who appear over 45 but look great. Bodies in particular are very responsive to regular excercise so no matter what age anyone is, if they are fit they look their best.


That's why I mentioned the difference in anatomy. My wife is even fitter today than when we met and indeed she looks great. But as a woman she has things that men dont which are prone to years of gravity. I can make my pecs as hard as they ever were, she cant do the same with her chest. 

And if I didn't take care of myself, it wouldnt be long and I would have the average mans body.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> I have no problem digging into this.
> 
> Lights off for sex came about when we began restoring our marriage in 2014.
> 
> ...


That's a tough one for sure!! Not nearly the same magnitude as your situation but I dealt with a somewhat similar situation with my wife and her small tits. I love small titties...that's on of my "things" but after being teased so much in her youth, she didn't want them touched or looked at. I got tired of her negative comments about them and one day I let her have it. "You don't like your small tits and that's fine. I love small titties. You have small titties which is one of the things that attracted me to you. I'm sick and tired of you making me feel like I am some kind of weirdo or pervert because I like small titties,. I am sick and tired of you implying that I am a liar when I say I love small titties. If you want to hate them, that's fine for you but I will not continue to let you make me feel like a liar and a weirdo because I love small titties." 

Would you believe that started to thaw the chill? She actually apologized for making me feel that way. I then showed her the most popular porn star at that time, Jenna Haze...tits...34B. Average tit size in porn where we men can have any size we want, 34B. Then i showed her the porn subreddit /tinytits and all the positive and lustful comments from people who love small tits. After that, I showed her the subreddit /AA_cups, even smaller tits. They don't allow tits bigger than AA cups. She sees the same type comments from lots of men who dig these size tits. 

Today, I have full access to dem tittays. She now is a little too cocky and wonders if she can go out without a bra with those diamond cutter nipples showing. >


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I don't know your story, and you don't have to answer, but what were you restoring it FROM? That may be a big part of the answer.


Great question that I did not consider. If he had cheated on her with someone fit, I can see a huge barrier to overcome. Not suggesting that he did anything wrong at all.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Again, like I stated earlier, I have zero interest in managing a difficult sub, which is essentially what it comes down to.



Sorry for barging in on this but about this sentence, here’s the deal: I don’t know if you actually say this to her verbatim or simply make it known in other ways that this is how you think but women are more emotional creatures and men are more pragmatic. 

To us, this statement may sound perfectly logical but she might perceive it as a stand off-ish, hostile and judgemental comment, that is guaranteed to make her retreat and switch off every bulb in the town.

You need a ‘translator’ between the both of you, in the form of a good marriage counsellor because neither of you trust or believe each other. Plus you think you know what the other one feels or thinks. If the MC is no good, don’t be shy to change. Many times if you need to. But this is a pretty classic situation. 
That’s no way to coexist with each other: eventually one of you is going to give up or slip up. And your amazing shape is only going to be helpful up to a point...

Even if you are doing all the right things, my guess is that because of the trust issues, she will feel that you are rubbing it into her face (and it can be as little as your tone). Of course you are always within your right to say that ‘it’s your problem, deal with it’. But then there is no wonder that you have such a big electricity saving. My other guess is that maybe you feel you reached an equilibrium that you are happy with. But she might not be. And this push & pull is not going to work in the long run.

With the usual disclaimer that I have no idea what the **** I’m talking about.



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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Both of us being detached and total sexlessness. No infidelity from either one of us. 

My threads are linked in my signature IIRC (on Tapatalk at the moment).

If you have three hours to throw away, have at them.


personofinterest said:


> I don't know your story, and you don't have to answer, but what were you restoring it FROM? That may be a big part of the answer.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> It was the message I got from some of the posts - the idea that if you have a strong boundary with regard to this or make any type of ultimatum statement, you are a bully.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, I am the first to say that if all valid routes have been exhausted and the situation remains unbearable, one should be prepared to walk out. What’s not a valid route, is ‘conditioning’ (coercing) your spouse, a la Pavlov dog: to get her to have enthusiastic sex with me.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> farsidejunky said:
> 
> 
> > Again, like I stated earlier, I have zero interest in managing a difficult sub, which is essentially what it comes down to.
> ...


I think you should read his thread to know exactly what his situation is...


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> But saying, I will not continue in this marriage if my needs are not important is not coercion or bullying. It's just stating a boundary. The person hearing it has full choice. They might not like it, but they DO have a choice.


And I'd say one has a responsibility to state that clearly. Granted it's hard to not have it sound like a threat. BTDT, "no, it's not a threat, just letting you know where we are headed". 

As for coercion, I don't want you to do anything you don't want, I mean where's the joy in that.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Both of us being detached and total sexlessness. No infidelity from either one of us.
> 
> My threads are linked in my signature IIRC (on Tapatalk at the moment).
> 
> ...




Just last comment: the problem is that you may have got the right advice in the past on how to cope with an unbearable situation * for yourself*. Unfortunately this doesn’t fix the actual marriage. You need to go further for this. 
Maybe your wife is an infantile out of control child with no hint of empathy or self awareness, i have no idea, but you need someone good to look and talk to *both of you *.
This is the problem with these websites...(rant over).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

To be clear, I wouldn't use those exact words. However, I would communicate clearly that there is a lack of sex, which is a problem. It doesn't have to be a long drawn-out speech. Something simple like "hey, you've been telling me you want me, but not coming through. Is something wrong?" usually does the trick.

And if I'm doing my part in the relationship, I put it on my partner to get herself in order and be able to provide that intimacy which the relationship needs. An ongoing situation of "sorry, it's not you - I just don't feel like it" is simply not acceptable. Yes, I am in a relationship (GF of 1.5 years, now living together) and apply these principles.

I might be the exception that proves your rule, but I find that I have a much better sex life now than before. I once was that guy who didn't push his wife, tried to woo her, stayed upbeat and present through the sex denials. It didn't get me anywhere.

Now, I treat my wants as a priority for myself and as worthy as anything my partner wants. Further, I see sex as an integral part of a relationship. It's a vital part of maintaining that bond, which you do lovingly even when other things might be going on in the relationship or life in general. It is *not* relegated to a low priority status, to be dished out when all the boxes are checked and everything is firing on all cylinders, except in true urgent circumstances.

Because of my concept of how sex rates in the relationship, I won't swim uphill to have it. I certainly make my partner feel valued, try to meet her needs, and respond when she calls out an issue. But for her part, she needs to make sure she regularly meets my need with minimum prompting. She needs to push other stuff aside, if necessary, to make that time and energy available for me. If I don't rate or she has too many hangups, then I'll gladly go elsewhere.

And my sex life has been immeasurably better for taking this approach.



happiness27 said:


> This is the full text of what you said in your original post here:
> 
> If you are saying that you want to walk those statements back, okay.
> 
> ...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I'm curious about how common this is. I feel the same way as your wife. I've tried to describe to my husband what this is about and I'm not sure I'm being accurate.
> 
> I've told him that for me as a woman, I have this sort of sixth sense or vibe about sex where I can tell when there is an off connection...and when that connection is off, it's, like...it bugs me.
> 
> ...


 @happiness27 one thing I will say about sexuality when it comes to a polarizing difference between men and women would be the male refractory period.

When men have built up a certain levels of hormones, the male refractory period becomes less and less. So if a male has been patiently building desire for a period of time (few days to over a week), then after a climax the release of refractory hormones will not fully extinguish hormonal desire. There will be enough to continue or enjoy a nice afterglow.

If a male uses his "toggle switch" as you may call it, then there is not really enough testosterone built up in his system and a climax will FULLY counteract desire, even to a point there might be negative desire. This is that scenario of a sudden and strong hormonal and perhaps an emotional disconnect that may cause a female partner to feel unsettled when it occurs.

The hormone a male releases during climax is prolactin. Same hormones associated with breastfeeding a baby. In men prolactin acts as an anti-testosterone. This process within the male body can be as strong as taking a valium for some men. Some men get addicted to this specific aspect of sexuality and use it to sedate themselves. So sex in this situation can be like, "honey I am in emotional pain and my desire for you originates from my need to numb myself and make it go away." Yes, that will be emotionally unsettling for a spouse. THIS is a scenario in which declining/rejecting sex will have to be handled with care as it can easily cause more pain and just make the situation exponentially worse. A simple back rub can really be beneficial in this scenario. 

By contrast a male hormonal desire that has built up is definitely all about carnal desire and not about the need to numb oneself. This perhaps is what your sixth sense may be picking up on when you describe that. 

So in that sense you can definitely say, HELLO men and women are different. There are some exceptions as some women that enjoy sex as a means of self soothing, but women do not get the benefit of hormones designed for the male refractory period. Imagine as a woman masturbating and all the sudden every muscle in your body completely relaxes, every bit of anxiety fades away, your emotions are that of a calm lake with a glassy surface with a warm sunset, and you can close your eyes and almost feel like you don't even exist in an incredibly peaceful bliss. Thus the reason why some men might masturbate as a sleep aid, and this can easily occur without any sexual desire, pleasure or arousal whatsoever (in fact this only makes the male refractory period more powerful as there is no arousal to counteract).

Perhaps that might offer you some insight....

Regards,
Badsanta


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

PigglyWiggly said:


> That's a tough one for sure!! Not nearly the same magnitude as your situation but I dealt with a somewhat similar situation with my wife and her small tits. I love small titties...that's on of my "things" but after being teased so much in her youth, she didn't want them touched or looked at. I got tired of her negative comments about them and one day I let her have it. "You don't like your small tits and that's fine. I love small titties. You have small titties which is one of the things that attracted me to you. I'm sick and tired of you making me feel like I am some kind of weirdo or pervert because I like small titties,. I am sick and tired of you implying that I am a liar when I say I love small titties. If you want to hate them, that's fine for you but I will not continue to let you make me feel like a liar and a weirdo because I love small titties."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes! I’m a Big Small Titty Lover too! 
Sometimes all it takes is a hug and a sincere compliment to make these worries go away...other times it’s more complicated.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

All:

Logging in for responses now since they can't be limited to just a few words.

I thought my threads were linked in my signature but I was wrong. For anyone who wants to read them, here they are.

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/178025-heres-my-scenario-feedback-wanted.html

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/190002-sh-test.html
@inmyprime:



inmyprime said:


> Sorry for barging in on this but about this sentence, here’s the deal: I don’t know if you actually say this to her verbatim or simply make it known in other ways that this is how you think but women are more emotional creatures and men are more pragmatic.
> 
> To us, this statement may sound perfectly logical but she might perceive it as a stand off-ish, hostile and judgemental comment, that is guaranteed to make her retreat and switch off every bulb in the town.
> 
> ...


We do have equilibrium. We are great friends. We have things we do together that only we do (beyond sexual). We laugh together at the same twisted, sophomoric things. We both care to help those around us. We both have rigid insistence on doing what is right. We have tremendous compatibility in all of those ways.

My actions do make what you mentioned above known, and she is okay with it. Why? Because she does not want to delve into it. She just wants to 'be'. She is free to view my actions in any way she chooses. I am not responsible for her happiness or her self improvement, nor she mine. 

We have done MC with an amazing counselor. She helped us communicate and held us accountable. When we stopped MC after about a year, my wife decided to stay with her for IC. It lasted roughly 90 days. After that, she did not get anything out of it.

As for push/pull, that is the sole reason why I enjoy our current dynamic. The pattern of 'not close enough/too close, get away' is tiring, so I simply do not play. If she wants something from me, she can ask. When I want something, I ask. The power to have me close or not is purely up to her. I enjoy when we do engage, but don't get hung up on not getting enough time or effort from her, because I have other things in my life to keep it full. It also helps me with my sanity in the push/pull dynamic. No resentment.

Lastly, I do flirt with her constantly in a 'drive-by' fashion, such as nibbling her neck from behind for a few seconds then walking away, or giving her a gentle squeeze on the butt when passing her, etc., I do not necessarily pursue her...at least not often. In other words, I am not pressuring her to consummate the flirting often. This removes the pressure from her that she clearly felt when she agreed to sex three times per week but found it to be too much.

If any of this does not work for her, then she is free to leave, just as I am if it does not work for me. Every day, each of us rises out of bed and chooses what we want from our life. I choose to remain married to her. She chooses the same. At any time, this could change. While it would sadden me if she chose to leave, I love myself enough to know that it would be eventually what is best for me. 

In other words, I can't determine the outcome because there are two of us, so I don't try to control it. I live my life in a way that is authentic for me, and she can choose to be a part of it or not. No matter what happens, I will be okay.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Count me in on this as well. B or smaller is where it's at.



inmyprime said:


> Yes! I’m a Big Small Titty Lover too!
> Sometimes all it takes is a hug and a sincere compliment to make these worries go away...other times it’s more complicated.
> 
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> All:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And you can say with confidence she is genuinely happy with the romantic part of the relationship and herself? (I do mean this as a genuine question). I certainly don’t want to make the ‘the sex with lights off’ a bigger deal than it should be (everyone has quirks) but from your writing, it strikes me that you want more from the marriage, but found a good way to stop yourself from...wanting.

Why not continue the MC if it yielded positive results? (I was told it is not a good idea to see the same councillor for IC as for MC).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@inmyprime:

I asked this of H27, and I will ask you.

Have you ever read Awareness by Anthony DeMello? If not, you should. It is enlightening.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> And if I'm doing my part in the relationship, I put it on my partner to get herself in order and be able to provide that intimacy which the relationship needs. *An ongoing situation of "sorry, it's not you - I just don't feel like it" is simply not acceptable.*


Yep


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Would I like more? Sure...in the same way that I would like more money, more time, a 2018 Shelby GT-350 in a custom shop with a lift and $50K in tools...you get the picture.

If she isn't happy with the arrangement, she can speak up. I normally give her what she asks for, unless she has decided to be nasty about something. Then I just smile and tell her no. 



inmyprime said:


> And you can say with confidence she is genuinely happy with the romantic part of the relationship and herself? (I do mean this as a genuine question). I certainly don’t want to make the ‘the sex with lights off’ a bigger deal than it should be (everyone has quirks) but from your writing, it strikes me that you want more from the marriage, but found a good way to stop yourself from...wanting.
> 
> Why not continue the MC if it yielded positive results? (I was told it is not a good idea to see the same councillor for IC as for MC).
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> @inmyprime:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I’m going to read it. I hesitate reading the ‘TAM mainstream’ books for fear of starting to sound like everyone else (not that there is anything wrong with that). But I see this book is not about that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

_“Everywhere people have actually built their lives on the unquestioned belief that without certain things—money, power, success, approval, a good reputation, love, friendship, spirituality, God—they cannot be happy. What is your particular combination? Once you swallowed your belief you naturally developed an attachment to this person or thing you were convinced you could not be happy without. Then came the efforts to acquire your precious thing or person, to cling to it once it was acquired, and to fight off every possibility of losing it. This finally led you to abject emotional dependence so that the object of your attachment had the power to thrill you when you attained it, to make you anxious lest you be deprived of it and miserable when you lost it. Stop for a moment now and contemplate in horror the endless list of attachments that you have become a prisoner to.”
_
_Awareness_
_Anthony DeMello_


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

_“Each time you are anxious and afraid, it is because you may lose or fail to get the object of your attachment, isn’t it? And each time you feel jealous, isn’t it because someone may make off with what you are attached to? And almost all your anger comes from someone standing in the way of your attachment, doesn’t it? And see how paranoid you become when your attachment is threatened—you cannot think objectively; your whole vision becomes distorted, doesn’t it? And every time you feel bored, isn’t it because you are not getting a sufficient supply of what you believe will make you happy, of what you are attached to? And when you are depressed and miserable, the cause is there for all to see: Life is not giving you what you have convinced yourself you cannot be happy without.”

Awareness
Anthony DeMello_


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

DTO said:


> *To be clear, I wouldn't use those exact words.* However, I would communicate clearly that there is a lack of sex, which is a problem. It doesn't have to be a long drawn-out speech. Something simple like "hey, you've been telling me you want me, but not coming through. Is something wrong?" usually does the trick.
> 
> And if I'm doing my part in the relationship, I put it on my partner to get herself in order and be able to provide that intimacy which the relationship needs. An ongoing situation of "sorry, it's not you - I just don't feel like it" is simply not acceptable. Yes, I am in a relationship (GF of 1.5 years, now living together) and apply these principles.
> 
> ...


My earlier responses were directed at what words you used in your original post:*But eventually I will say "there are too many excuses. You need to make it happen, even if that means letting other stuff lapse"* Sounds like you are taking that back or at least tempering what you posted earlier.

And, it also sounds like you have found a present match for your stated dynamic.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> H27:
> 
> The only problem with trying to "reach across the gender divide" is the competitive but low empathy partner.
> 
> ...


I do think there is a pretty wide spectrum of personalities and personal issues within individuals in relationships. Both people have to be committed and engaged.

My husband and I have worked on our own and joint issues for 28 years. I can honestly say that the biggest of those did not get resolved until THIS YEAR.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Yep





happiness27 said:


> I do think there is a pretty wide spectrum of personalities and personal issues within individuals in relationships.* Both people have to be committed and engaged.
> *
> My husband and I have worked on our own and joint issues for 28 years. I can honestly say that the biggest of those did not get resolved until THIS YEAR.


Therein lies the key to success. You need that as absolute minimum.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

PigglyWiggly said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Yep
> ...


Totally.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

A hyper competitive need to ‘win’ every disagreement is hostile to true intimacy.





happiness27 said:


> My earlier responses were directed at what words you used in your original post:*But eventually I will say "there are too many excuses. You need to make it happen, even if that means letting other stuff lapse"* Sounds like you are taking that back or at least tempering what you posted earlier.
> 
> And, it also sounds like you have found a present match for your stated dynamic.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> A hyper competitive need to ‘win’ every disagreement is hostile to true intimacy.


Tru dat

It may also explain the incapability to validate.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I wanted to address something
> When it comes to sex, women are a dimmer switch to a man's toggle switch.


...expanding on this...

When you read about problems with relationships and libidos, while the aspect of desire is often touched upon, I don't think I have seen it discussed as to how it is self controlled.

I think the comedian Eddie Murphy in the standup movie "Raw" perfectly described this as when men age they eventually get "d*** control." Younger men all go through that period of time when they have absolutely no control whatsoever and you can imagine the anecdotes that Eddie Murphy might go onto describe in his standup routine. My point being is that men in particular HAVE TO learn how to consciously control themselves or certain social situations become rather inappropriate. Women however never have to struggle with the social stigma of arousal that is visibly obvious and perhaps may not acquire this ability. 

And we all like to make jokes and it might even make international headlines for a rare moment when that one adult guy was not paying attention to himself:










In my opinion in a sexually mismatched situation, there are those that have a rather strong conscious control over their current state of desire and then there are those that have no control over it whatsoever. For those without control problems may be caused by A) being unable to get in the mood when the opportunity is ideal or B) being unable to calm down one's arousal and get it to subside when a moment may not allow for intimacy. For those with a great deal of control problems may be caused by A) frustration that a spouse can not do the same or B) having a spouse that struggles to attribute where and how your desire originated or subsided. 

Regards,
Badsanta


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I see your point about not using thise exact words. What I am trying to say is that the exact words are not the issue; the issue is what my expectations are and what happens if those are not met.

IMO, the exact words are not the issue. In reality, I would never just say "too many excuses"; I would provide examples of what was unacceptable because clarity is important to me. But I would (and have) made it clear that it needs to happen regardless of all the other noise in life. It might not be the exact words, but the message and tone were the same.

I don't feel bad making sex a priority. Honestly, you can have a good sex life in 90 minutes a week - less than 1% of the time in a week. If you don't make that happen you aren't trying very hard and excuses are pretty lame.

And yes I have found a match. Women are attracted to guys who have much to offer and have some self-worth. My GF gets much (that she values highly) from our relationship because I work hard at it. She knows she needs to work hard at it also at times, so if I state there's an issue she remedies it.



happiness27 said:


> My earlier responses were directed at what words you used in your original post:*But eventually I will say "there are too many excuses. You need to make it happen, even if that means letting other stuff lapse"* Sounds like you are taking that back or at least tempering what you posted earlier.
> 
> And, it also sounds like you have found a present match for your stated dynamic.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

DTO said:


> I see your point about not using thise exact words. What I am trying to say is that the exact words are not the issue; the issue is what my expectations are and what happens if those are not met.
> 
> IMO, the exact words are not the issue. In reality, I would never just say "too many excuses"; I would provide examples of what was unacceptable because clarity is important to me. But I would (and have) made it clear that it needs to happen regardless of all the other noise in life. It might not be the exact words, but the message and tone were the same.
> 
> ...


 I wouldn't worry about it. 99% of the people reading understood what your point actually was. Word parsing is a tactic with which I am well acquainted because I was married to 1 for 20 years. It's a way to make sure the other person can never be right or to wear them down because it's just too exhausting to continue the discussion.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Round here we call it the game of ‘willful incomprehension ‘. 





personofinterest said:


> I wouldn't worry about it. 99% of the people reading understood what your point actually was. Word parsing is a tactic with which I am well acquainted because I was married to 1 for 20 years. It's a way to make sure the other person can never be right or to wear them down because it's just too exhausting to continue the discussion.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

DTO said:


> I see your point about not using thise exact words. What I am trying to say is that the exact words are not the issue; the issue is what my expectations are and what happens if those are not met.
> 
> IMO, the exact words are not the issue. In reality, I would never just say "too many excuses"; I would provide examples of what was unacceptable because clarity is important to me. But I would (and have) made it clear that it needs to happen regardless of all the other noise in life. It might not be the exact words, but the message and tone were the same.
> 
> ...


You have a match for you that is presently working. 

To my way of thinking, tit for tat is not a longterm marriage relationship strategy. Too much happens in longterm relationships where real life presents big challenges to "I give you what you want AS LONG AS you give me what I want."

*Other noises in life:*

I've been in a longterm 28 year successful relationship that has had truly large challenges: longtime sickness culminating in deaths of several family members, custody battles (previous relationship/marriage), raising teenagers through to adulthood, dangerous/life-threatening career challenges, jobs on different shifts for long hours for long days, separate continent job assignments for long periods of time (years where we saw each other 30 days out of the year) - the list is far too long and complex but those are some of the biggest challenges.

If my husband and I had based our relationship on tit-for-tat deals that demanded we set aside "other noises in life" to make sure that sex happened XXX times a week, we would never have made it. I'm not sure how it would have gone down if either my husband or I had said to each other "Okay, that's enough grieving. Set that aside so you can hold up your end of the bargain and have sex with me." 

That's not how we approached things. We approached things with patience, compassion and understanding. We did hang on to each other - we committed, we engaged, we listened, we fought, we made up, we got outside counsel, we learned, we adjusted. 

The relationship was not all peaceful and happy fun. It was hard work for both of us. It's successful now because of that baseline of commitment - not because anybody "won" - but because we both know that we both sacrificed something for the sake of the relationship - at many different times out of nothing but unselfish love for each other.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> DTO said:
> 
> 
> > I see your point about not using thise exact words. What I am trying to say is that the exact words are not the issue; the issue is what my expectations are and what happens if those are not met.
> ...


I'm pretty sure people are meaning the kind of "noises in life" that are used constantly as bull**** excuses, *over and over* to put off sex with a partner such as: I have gas, I ate too much, I'm hungry, I'm tired, I was busy today, I'm stressed about the dog/cat, the toilet isn't clean, etc.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> ...expanding on this...
> 
> When you read about problems with relationships and libidos, while the aspect of desire is often touched upon, I don't think I have seen it discussed as to how it is self controlled.
> 
> ...


Yes, I think that, ultimately, what really helped us in our relationship was really focusing on how sex works for each of us and getting that through each others' heads to the point where we could really come together.

It was just so difficult sometimes because, well, he's not a woman and I'm not a man - and there's no way to alter that. We can't be the other sex so what we could glean about the other person had to come through various conversations and applying what we learned.

It's never going to be completely clear as we will never be able to switch bodies. But if I am detailed in my posts about the differences between male and female anatomy and sexual responses - it's partly because I've had to go to great lengths to study these differences as a part of my husband and I educating each other about it.

When I have explained to him what arousal is for me, I get why it's hard for him to understand. That isn't HIS experience. And it's the same for me with his arousal and sexuality. But, hey, we're interested in each other so we kept working at it.

I have a lot of sympathy for a person who just gets so exasperated with trying to figure out what works with their spouse that they throw in the towel - or just even WANT to throw in the towel. It's a lot of work and every person has their personal limit as to how much effort they expend when they calculate the odds of things working out between the two of them.

My husband and I just happen to really dig each other in a lot of other ways besides sex. And...we both love sex. We just each require different approaches to sex. 

The poster who described her Don Juan ex described a guy who approached sex with confidence and EFFORT that took into account not only himself but his PARTNER. He didn't just demand receiving sex without putting out the alluring vibes that drew his partner to him. It's no wonder he was so successful.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Livvie said:


> I'm pretty sure people are meaning the kind of "noises in life" that are used constantly as bull**** excuses, *over and over* to put off sex with a partner such as: I have gas, I ate too much, I'm hungry, I'm tired, I was busy today, I'm stressed about the dog/cat, the toilet isn't clean, etc.


Oh, okay, I get it...so: dishonest reasons that are covering up actual reasons.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"I'm pretty sure people are meaning the kind of "noises in life" that are used constantly as bull**** excuses, *over and over* to put off sex with a partner such as: I have gas, I ate too much, I'm hungry, I'm tired, I was busy today, I'm stressed about the dog/cat, the toilet isn't clean, etc."

Yep


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

As Ester Perel points out to a couple in Mating in Captivity, “weren’t you ever stressed out before you got married?” 

A buddy of mine had mentioned that his ex only had issues with sex after marriage and kids because of a sexual assault (before they met).

Seems that a lot issues, like the laundry, don’t seem to be showstoppers when you’re dating or early on in marriage but suddenly become one overnight. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

That is what I mean by noise. And it's used to avoid consequences for not working on the relationship and keeping it a priority.

It's like if I keep ignoring my GF's requests to help with the dishes and sit on my butt instead, eventually she wii be be upset at me, with the usual consequences (and rightfully so).

So, if remain too lazy to help out, it's easier to make up some excuse of "I'm tired", "my leg hurts", etc because I'm trying to deflect blame away from myself.



happiness27 said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty sure people are meaning the kind of "noises in life" that are used constantly as bull**** excuses, *over and over* to put off sex with a partner such as: I have gas, I ate too much, I'm hungry, I'm tired, I was busy today, I'm stressed about the dog/cat, the toilet isn't clean, etc.
> ...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty sure people are meaning the kind of "noises in life" that are used constantly as bull**** excuses, *over and over* to put off sex with a partner such as: I have gas, I ate too much, I'm hungry, I'm tired, I was busy today, I'm stressed about the dog/cat, the toilet isn't clean, etc.
> ...


And sometimes the actual reason is "I shouldnt have to - tough."


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

DTO said:


> That is what I mean by noise. And it's used to avoid consequences for not working on the relationship and keeping it a priority.
> 
> It's like if I keep ignoring my GF's requests to help with the dishes and sit on my butt instead, eventually she wii be be upset at me, with the usual consequences (and rightfully so).
> 
> ...


I guess I don't see a healthy relationship keeping score and tit for tat. 

"He didn't help me with the dishes so I'm going to even the score by withholding sex."

I'm not saying people don't do it but that would be childish.

I do the dishes because the dishes have to be done. If he does the dishes, it's because the dishes have to be done. We both dirty the dishes so it's the responsibility of either one of us to do that. I sweep the floor when it needs to be swept and he sweeps the floors when they need to be swept. He fixes breakfast, I fix breakfast - we don't even decide who is going to do it when - it just happens if he decides first or I decide first. It doesn't matter. And none of that is tied to our sex life.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> DTO said:
> 
> 
> > That is what I mean by noise. And it's used to avoid consequences for not working on the relationship and keeping it a priority.
> ...


Its simpler than that.

Spouse A considers sex unimportant. Spouse B's desire for it is annoying

Therefore spouse B should get over it

Of course they deflect with dishes and "Is that all you ever think about????"

Then spouse comes to a forum, get dismissed, and get told the 1000 ways they should do things differently


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

That is a little more simple than reality.

It is more like each time builds a bit more resentment, until 100 incidents of those types happen. Suddenly you (proverbial) are so pissed of at the person that sex with them is repulsive. 

Then once it is at that point, there is no overnight fix.


happiness27 said:


> I guess I don't see a healthy relationship keeping score and tit for tat.
> 
> "He didn't help me with the dishes so I'm going to even the score by withholding sex."
> 
> I'm not saying people don't do it but that would be childish.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> That is a little more simple than reality.
> 
> It is more like each time builds a bit more resentment, until 100 incidents of those types happen. Suddenly you (proverbial) are so pissed of at the person that sex with them is repulsive.
> 
> ...


See. I disagree.

This, like every other scenario posited on forums, makes it the rejected spouses fault.

As if all these withholding spouses would rip their clothes off if HD spouse wasn't such an ass.

I disagree.

Many times the withholding spouse just unilaterally decides it's not important.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Actually it doesn't. 

The things that build resentment may only be in the head of the LD...or they may be legit.


personofinterest said:


> See. I disagree.
> 
> This, like every other scenario posited on forums, makes it the rejected spouses fault.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Actually it doesn't.
> 
> The things that build resentment may only be in the head of the LD...or they may be legit.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk




But who decides what’s legit?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> farsidejunky said:
> 
> 
> > Actually it doesn't.
> ...


Well, the no crowd will say she does.

Cause no.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Tricky conundrum, isn't it.

There is no easy answer. 

D.O.T.S.

Depends On The Situation.



inmyprime said:


> But who decides what’s legit?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

My relationship is not "presently" working. It is working, period - because I prioritize my partner highly and found someone willing to do the same.

I am talking about partners making each other a high-enough priority so that each rates the other's wants and needs equal to their own. It's not tit for tat because no one is keeping score. Once you esteem your partner high enough, meeting his or her needs becomes second nature.

It is tough to achieve, though. Both partners have to be on board and need to hold the other accountable, if necessary.

Regarding real-life challenges that interfere with a love life, I understand that short-term interruptions happen. But most of your list doesn't prevent connecting with your partner regularly - the exceptions being physical separation and (perhaps) sick family members. And yes I've had those challenges myself.

The issue here is that you want more space in your marriage. You want to be able to "check out" of the relationship (or certain aspects) and come back when it works for you. That's your choice and more power to you for achieving it. But, don't denigrate those of us insisting on a consistently tighter bond with words like "bully" and "coerce".

Can I get a mic drop?



happiness27 said:


> You have a match for you that is presently working.
> 
> To my way of thinking, tit for tat is not a longterm marriage relationship strategy. Too much happens in longterm relationships where real life presents big challenges to "I give you what you want AS LONG AS you give me what I want."
> 
> ...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

The interesting thing that has come out of this thread to me is that the guys who had the epiphanies about how female sexual desire works and happily made adjustments aren't discussing how to get their wives to stop rejecting them - instead they are too busy getting laid.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> The interesting thing that has come out of this thread to me is that the guys who had the epiphanies about how female sexual desire works and happily made adjustments aren't discussion how to get their wives to stop rejecting them - instead they are too busy getting laid.


They understand (I hope) how their own partner's desire works and are too busy extrapolating for the rest of Tam. 

Understanding how something works doesn't mean you can fix what's wrong. Among other things.

No epiphany involved. Observation, deduction, some experimentation...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> The interesting thing that has come out of this thread to me is that the guys who had the epiphanies about how female sexual desire works and happily made adjustments aren't discussing how to get their wives to stop rejecting them - instead they are too busy getting laid.


Lol


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

About what I’d expect from someone on their third marriage. 

I’m on my first - pretty close to 30 years in. And we have minimal conflict over sex, or anything else.

Sometimes people who repeatedly fail at relationships end up being dysfunctionally competitive and sexist. 





happiness27 said:


> The interesting thing that has come out of this thread to me is that the guys who had the epiphanies about how female sexual desire works and happily made adjustments aren't discussing how to get their wives to stop rejecting them - instead they are too busy getting laid.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

So, again, thank you to the guys and gals who took part in this discussion in a productive, civil manner. I learned a lot and enjoyed your insights.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This reminds me of blonde. 

Blonde liked to talk about how she was a victim of men and especially of male sexual behavior. Including that of her handsome husband who cheated on her. 

She had this dismissive tone with folks who posted stuff she disliked. And she often restated posts in a manner that was highly inaccurate. 

Her sex drive disappeared which - by itself - would have been ok. But - being blonde - she turned it into this political thing. Suddenly doggy style was ‘demeaning’ as was oral sex. And then then the crowning jewel - she had decided that it was her turn to dictate when and how often she and her husband would have sex. 

I was tempted to tell her that asserting absolute control over their sex life - especially in a such a self righteous manner - was likely a bad idea. I didn’t though - because she was a very condescending person. 

Anyway - one day blonde returns complaining bitterly - furiously - that her husband was having yet another affair. 

It’s sort of funny how many women think arrogance is a male flaw. 





happiness27 said:


> So, again, thank you to the guys and gals who took part in a productive discussion. I learned a lot and enjoyed your insights.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

And I would also like to thank everyone who was respectful of differing viewpoints and refrained from taking other people’s posts and restating them inaccurately. 





happiness27 said:


> So, again, thank you to the guys and gals who took part in this discussion in a productive, civil manner. I learned a lot and enjoyed your insights.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> So, again, thank you to the guys and gals who took part in this discussion in a productive, civil manner. I learned a lot and enjoyed your insights.


I thought I'd share this article as a way of illustrating the female point of view regarding sexual arousal and how it plays a role for couples struggling with this topic: https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_6775856?ncid=engmodushpmg00000006


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

"Am I an enjoyable F?" "Is the juice worth the squeeze with me to have sex?" 
I wonder if more people need to ask themselves these questions and/or ask their mate. People repeat things that are enjoyable for them barring too many obstacles. On forums like this, we tend to only tackle obstacle removal/avoidance. Maybe the problem is the person in the mirror. I think it's something worth considering.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> About what I’d expect from someone on their third marriage.



Wow, you are on fire today...This is the type of comment I made once to someone and was told off (by you). However mine was in response to vile insults.
What is it that you took such offence to?
She’s not attacking you personally, let’s take a deep breath...and talk about how not to reject your spouse.



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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"let’s take a deep breath...and talk about how not to reject your spouse"

Yeah......that's tough when you're continually told it's your fault, the rejection is silly to be upset by, you get lectures about how women respond (which as a WOMAN crack me up), and get reminded "it's my right to say no!!!" (As if anyone is saying it isnt). Oh, and being called a bully and having your words parsed.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> "let’s take a deep breath...and talk about how not to reject your spouse"
> 
> Yeah......that's tough when you're continually told it's your fault, the rejection is silly to be upset by, you get lectures about how women respond (which as a WOMAN crack me up), and get reminded "it's my right to say no!!!" (As if anyone is saying it isnt). Oh, and being called a bully and having your words parsed.


You could ignore the advice and/or the poster. How tough is that?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I have noticed there are a couple or more types of answers going in in this thread. Not that detracts or hinders the thread but appears to have created a couple or so camps.

One is answers from men, that vary, but are from first hand experience and preferences when turned down.

One is from women who share a better way to say no in their own opinion. Also based on their relationship experiences. 

Another is women that comment on men's comments.

Another are comments from men and women on how it should be, in an ideal world, not really the real world though.

And another, comments on how men should behave with women as to not be rejected in the first place, more in the ideal world, not the real world. Because many TAM men already know and do those things but still lack desired or perhaps anything but a bare minimum of frequency. Kindly I refer to the Huff Post article. 

Which brings me to my comments; this wide variety of comments go to show this is indeed a very important and good topic. 
With everyone's opinion important as perhaps a few barriers can be brought down just a bit by a Reader paying attention to most of the posts and reading them all. 

Just a tiny bit of insight gained from this thread may get some Readers over a speed bump here and there and that's a good thing!


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I have noticed there are a couple or more types of answers going in in this thread. Not that detracts or hinders the thread but appears to have created a couple or so camps.
> 
> One is answers from men, that vary, but are from first hand experience and preferences when turned down.
> 
> ...


Very well said. 

I've received a few helpful tidbits from threads with postings by ConanHub, Happiness27 and Faithfulwife. I'm in a really good place relationship/sexwise but always looking to understand and improve.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"I'm in a really good place relationship/sexwise but always looking to understand and improve."

Do basically you dont struggle with or suffer from continual rejection, correct?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

One source of confusion is that peoples knowledge of human sexuality varies a lot. There was on poster who had been married many years and only very recently realized women could have orgasms. Other posters have made a detailed study and consider the attached obvious - but possibly not applicable to their situation.

Women (and men) reject sex for a wide variety of reasons. Absolutely no "one size fits all"




happiness27 said:


> I thought I'd share this article as a way of illustrating the female point of view regarding sexual arousal and how it plays a role for couples struggling with this topic: https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_6775856?ncid=engmodushpmg00000006


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Why do you think that? I see a lot of posters who do understand female sexual desire but have partners who do not want sex. Women are not all the same - there are some who don't enjoy sex



happiness27 said:


> The interesting thing that has come out of this thread to me is that the guys who had the epiphanies about how female sexual desire works and happily made adjustments aren't discussing how to get their wives to stop rejecting them - instead they are too busy getting laid.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Why do you think that? I see a lot of posters who do understand female sexual desire but have partners who do not want sex. Women are not all the same - there are some who don't enjoy sex


Yes, there are women who don't enjoy sex. I was married to a man who did not like sex with me and had some sexual hangups he/we did not/could not discuss because he, himself, did not really understand it nor did he want to investigate it. I have written about that relationship here on TAM. That relationship had MANY problems and my take on the sexual issues was that it was a symptom of other incompatibilities that he and I were unable to resolve. I did not find out about his early childhood abuse between him and his mother until we had already separated and decided to divorce. He was unwilling to go to therapy to work on the marriage. Without outside help or willingness to work on it, I really felt there was no other choice but to divorce - after 9 years of trying. It's not like I gave up without trying everything I could think of.

I have a close person to me, which I don't want to disclose the nature of our relationship in an abundance of caution to protect her identity, who told me she had never experienced an orgasm. I was really surprised and didn't know what to say at the time to her. We were both young (in our 20s) and I was unaware that some women do not experience orgasm. I have learned since then that that is apparently a reported fact in sex studies. 

Additionally, there are a lot of women who don't have orgasms _regularly or even very often_. Again, I was really surprised about this. 

I have not said this facetiously at all but just as an observation: Men report that they regularly and more easily achieve orgasms during sex. As a means of exploratory thought, what if we asked the question: What if men _regularly_ did not experience orgasm during sex? It seems like a really impossible or at least difficult scenario to imagine. So, I can understand how this would be so hard to imagine, that the question might be cast aside.

However, APPARENTLY, and, again, according to sex studies and statistics, women experience this in an alarmingly disproportional ratio compared to men.

There are any number of individual cases where people behave pathologically harmful towards sex. Yes, there are people who use sex as a weapon and they know exactly what they are doing and do so cruelly and manipulatively and cause harm to their spouses intentionally. These people do not make good partners for a lot of reasons. A person who is willing to do one thing cruelly and manipulatively - is that their only cruel behavior? Or do they also have other ways of behaving wrongly towards their spouses? 

Another question I ask as I learned about female sexuality is: Why do women disproportionally not orgasm during sex with their partners?

In asking this question, there are more and more studies being done to explore this territory. As we do so, another question is: What are solutions for women in this regard?

While sex may seem to some to be a simple black and white issue, my explorations have led me to believe that the issue is much more complex. It involves a lot of different combinations of reasons that require a woman to a) believe she has a problem b) that the problem isn't ONLY to avoid sex c) that her life will be improved if she seeks answers and d) that there are answers and solutions she would be willing to pursue.

I feel deep empathy for people who struggle with sexual issues and incompatibilities. Sex is a beautiful gift. But even as a woman, I can't convince a woman to pursue something unless she can be persuaded to move off of her embedded point of view. Persuasion is something we studied in University - and there are methods to persuasion and there are failures to persuasion. If I were talking with a woman who did not enjoy sex, I would have to know what she finds unenjoyable about it or why she avoids it. If she is unwilling to even discuss it, there can be no progress.

Therein lies the dilemma for men who are in marriage situations where he and his spouse can't negotiate anything because one partner is unwilling to even come to table of discussion. Divorce is most of the time, a terrible option. It's messy, complex and financially devastating. Most people really want to try and avoid that. Thus, why a lot of marriages drag on - and understandably so. I know. I did that myself. 

I'm hoping that by researchers and discussions about sexual difficulties opens up more and more, perhaps some women will become curious and enlightened enough that they at least try to find out more about what causes their aversions to sex and/or sex with their partners. Some women can find a whole new world of happiness they are missing or are afraid to try. For other women, the aversions are so strong and embedded, they will never do this. 

But the stats on the low ratio of sexual orgasms between men and women concerns me. I wish this gap could narrow, which is why I keep looking at the question: "Why do women experience orgasms so much less often than men and in what way is this a factor in why women avoid sex with their partners?"


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> "let’s take a deep breath...and talk about how not to reject your spouse"
> 
> Yeah......that's tough when you're continually told it's your fault, the rejection is silly to be upset by, you get lectures about how women respond (which as a WOMAN crack me up), and get reminded "it's my right to say no!!!" (As if anyone is saying it isnt). Oh, and being called a bully and having your words parsed.



I looked back at the beginning of the thread to try and find the offending post, I don’t see it. Maybe something on other threads?
Has H27 become the epitome of every sexual rejection a man has ever received?
I think it’s a question of emphasis: I don’t think that ‘stating a preference’ (her words) to postpone sex equals ‘rejection of your partner’. Those are completely different things. Then the thread became a bit of a car crash, as it often happens, because people kept defending the latter while H27 is defending her view of the former. 
I do find comments about coercion disturbing and I also find that continuously rejecting your partner and putting your own interests and feelings always first, is ok. I think everyone (including H27) would agree with the latter?
So what’s the fuss?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> I feel deep empathy for people who struggle with sexual issues and incompatibilities.


I will say directly that this doesn't come accross in most of your posts. Or, if it does, the empathy is solely reserved for the poor put upon women whose husbands want sex.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I will say directly that this doesn't come accross in most of your posts. Or, if it does, the empathy is solely reserved for the poor put upon women whose husbands want sex.


Even though I have repeatedly discussed my first marriage? And have agreed with you about your nearly identical marriage?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> But the stats on the low ratio of sexual orgasms between men and women concerns me. I wish this gap could narrow, which is why I keep looking at the question: "Why do women experience orgasms so much less often than men and in what way is this a factor in why women avoid sex with their partners?"


Because for millions of years of evolution, it WAS necessary for a man to have an orgasm in order to procreate and it WAS NOT necessary for a woman to orgasm in order to procreate.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Another question I ask as I learned about female sexuality is: Why do women disproportionally not orgasm during sex with their partners?



At the risk of being accused of mansplaining...
There are possibly biological and evolutionary reasons for the disconnect in orgasms between the sexes: man absolutely needs to orgasm to procreate. For the woman, it is not necessary (though it increases the chances of procreation if she does orgasm). 
Guys with PE probably would have done very well in the past 

The other point is: I have read (and have also been told by my wife) that an orgasm doesn’t necessarily correlate ( @SpinyNorman ) with enjoyment; maybe other people with proper qualifications (like, having a vajayjay) can expand or explain this (maybe women say this to their husband to make them feel better?).

My wife however absolutely ‘demands’ of me to orgasm every time (but not too quickly and often at the time of her choosing  - meaning in harmony with her); I haven’t worked out whether it is because it is not enjoyable for HER if I don’t come (which I find a bit of a WTF) or if it’s because she is worried that she will ‘owe me one’...Or some other thing.

I have read threads of other women who are similarly ‘control-freaky’ about their husbands’ semen production..I don’t really care; just happy she is interested at all (otherwise reading here what the alternatives might be, makes me count my spermy blessings).




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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> Because for millions of years of evolution, it WAS necessary for a man to have an orgasm in order to procreate and it WAS NOT necessary for a woman to orgasm in order to procreate.




You beat me to it


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Physiologically, it is easier for a man to orgasm. And many women can find a LOT of pleasure in sexual intimacy without an orgasm.

So while "I don't want sex because you can't make me orgasm" might be a nice-sounding addition to the list of all the other reasons why sex issues are never a woman's problem or fault....it doesn't fly.

I can say that I probably only actually orgasmed with my first husband a handful of times during our marriage. I still wanted sex.

Some women really ARE just selfish. YEAH.... they are


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I thought I'd share this article as a way of illustrating the female point of view regarding sexual arousal and how it plays a role for couples struggling with this topic: https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_6775856?ncid=engmodushpmg00000006


I'm a big believer in responsive desire for women.

Society has told them that if they don't have spontaneous desire, then they don't have any desire. So, when approached, they'll reject or worse yet, they'll learn to spot when their husband may be interested in sex and start throwing up reasons so that he won't initiate (I had a real bad day at work today, I have a headaches, I don't feel good. etc).

The best solution for women dealing with responsive desire is to recognize that they're not "broken" and to be open to their husband's sexual advances in the knowledge that they probably will be aroused once they start (and they can always stop if they want).

The problem is that, rather than stressing the woman's role in solving the problem, articles like these talk about what the man should do to compensate for responsive desire. Sure, there are things he can do, but if the woman hasn't acknowledged that she has responsive desire or does but has no interest in compensating for it, the man's efforts will be fruitless. After all, she may not actually have responsive desire, so what good would treating her like she did do?

The man has to state his needs and boundaries, the woman needs to decide how important the marriage is to her and determine if responsive desire may be the problem and then, if she wants, decide to do something about it. 

A guy knowing about responsive desire in women himself isn't likely to do any good at all if his wife isn't equally knowledgeable.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm a big believer in responsive desire for women.
> 
> Society has told them that if they don't have spontaneous desire, then they don't have any desire. So, when approached, they'll reject or worse yet, they'll learn to spot when their husband may be interested in sex and start throwing up reasons so that he won't initiate (I had a real bad day at work today, I have a headaches, I don't feel good. etc).
> 
> ...



This! THIS is what I mean. It's always ALL about how many hoops the man should jump through, what the man should "understand," blah blah blah

NONE of these nice man-improving tips will work if the woman won't do her part.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Physiologically, it is easier for a man to orgasm. And many women can find a LOT of pleasure in sexual intimacy without an orgasm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Some are, if they are doing it deliberately. But if they don’t have any frame of reference? We have discussed before how you can only have real empathy if you have actually experienced that thing yourself.
If a woman never felt that sexual or needed sex as badly as the man, how would she know what it feels like to the guy? (Especially with younger couples). 
For example my wife enjoys a bit of pain. I don’t get anything out of it. It would never occur to me to torture her, lovingly, unless she told me.

Actually, forget about it. She never told me. Once I started slapping her ass  and she squealed in unison with the cat, I put 2 and 3 together...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> NONE of these nice man-improving tips will work if the woman won't do her part.



And to be fair, that part is not even that big....
All my woman needs to do is to LET me do MY part...*



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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Person,

I believe the summary on this topic sort of looks like this:

1. Can LD consistently orgasm? 
2. Is HD partner considerate&competent in bed?
3. Does HD respond in a mature manner in situations where LD doesn’t orgasm?
4. Does sex amplify the emotional connection?
5. Do the partners navigate their desire gap with minimal friction?

If you’re doing it WITH your partner and not TO them, and they have the best experience they are capable of, than (1) becomes less important.

If your doing it to them, and they don’t orgasm, that will kill your sex life. 

The simplest way to differentiate between (with and to) is the degree to which you can accurately depict what the experience is like for the other person. 

That includes being comfortable figuring out if they aren’t getting to the finish line - for internal reasons or because of your approach. 

The big negative amplifier is - if your partner doesn’t come but feels obliged to pretend otherwise. 




personofinterest said:


> Physiologically, it is easier for a man to orgasm. And many women can find a LOT of pleasure in sexual intimacy without an orgasm.
> 
> So while "I don't want sex because you can't make me orgasm" might be a nice-sounding addition to the list of all the other reasons why sex issues are never a woman's problem or fault....it doesn't fly.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I just noticed, I keep switching ‘sides’ in this thread...
Does it make me rejectile-fluid? 


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Person,

For a long, long time we were in this zone where - we’d close the door and for a good hour it was as if the entire universe completely disappeared. It was just the two of us - 100% focused on each other. Nothing like it. 





personofinterest said:


> This! THIS is what I mean. It's always ALL about how many hoops the man should jump through, what the man should "understand," blah blah blah
> 
> NONE of these nice man-improving tips will work if the woman won't do her part.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Some are, if they are doing it deliberately. But if they don’t have any frame of reference? We have discussed before how you can only have real empathy if you have actually experienced that thing yourself.


Actually, no

A LD partner doesn't have to understand sexual frustration. They just need to love their spouse.

My husband doesn't like it when my straw paper fills the little hideaway in the car door. He also wants ALL his t-shirts to be hung up.

I don't really have an opinion about straw paper, and I don't really notice the state of the door cubby. I also fold all my own T-shirts. He has a million t shirt (it seems like) so they take a lot of hangers and a lot of space.

However, I love my spouse. So I remind myself every Friday to clean out the straw paper, and I went to Dollar Tree and bought a million hangers.

The issue is this: many women who don't think sex is important don't think it SHOULD be important to hubby since it isn't important to them.

Part of empathy is being sensitive to the OTHER person's needs even if they aren't the same as your own. If you never "think about it"....buy a damn calendar or set a reminder on your phone. Or, at the very least, don't constantly "head off" their hopes when they gt that look in there eye by going on and on about your headache.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Person,
> 
> 
> 
> For a long, long time we were in this zone where - we’d close the door and for a good hour it was as if the entire universe completely disappeared. It was just the two of us - 100% focused on each other. Nothing like it.



Is that before or after all the coercion?  Locking the door also won’t look favourable to the judges. 
Just kidding. Trying to lighten up the mood here...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> He also wants ALL his t-shirts to be hung up.



I’m afraid I do not understand why you haven’t divorced him yet. This is utterly unacceptable.

But seriously, tell him, from man to man (as in, that I said that): T shirts that cover your balls are NOT sexy in 2018 anymore. (Because when you hang them up, they get longer and longer at the bottom. And overtime, he will look like he’s wearing a ghost costume 



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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I’m afraid I do not understand why you haven’t divorced him yet. This is utterly unacceptable.
> 
> But seriously, tell him, from man to man (as in, that I said that): T shirts that cover your balls are NOT sexy in 2018 anymore. (Because when you hang them up, they get longer and longer at the bottom. And overtime, he will look like he’s wearing a ghost costume
> 
> ...


Oh I dry them in the dryer. But I hang them up afterward. I think he likes to have them hung up to avoid wrinkles. Because of his job, he wears a t-shirt and jeans or shorts every day, and he doesn't want to have to iron or fluff the lines out (from folding). He also really loves t-shirts. Team shirts, racing shirts, fishing shirts, concert shirts, bar shirts.....I think he needs Shirts Anonymous....then I look at my shoes.....


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Actually, no
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And even more seriously: if there’s something you need to do for him regularly that you don’t particularly enjoy doing, then ALL that needs to happen is, for him to one day to either accidentally forget to do something for you, until you think to yourself: “hold on a minute, WTF am I hanging up all his ball covering t shirts all day long, if he can’t be arsed to do this one little thing for me”.

Yes it’s childish, but trust me (don’t really need to trust me, I’m a stranger), that’s how that s*** starts. For some, it starts sooner than for others, but eventually this (or a similar variation of) happens to most couples...

Good communication (to reaffirm your good intentions) is your only anti-poison.




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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"A guy knowing about responsive desire in women himself isn't likely to do any good at all if his wife isn't equally knowledgeable."

Knowledge is of little value unless there's also interest to go with it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Oh I dry them in the dryer. But I hang them up afterward. I think he likes to have them hung up to avoid wrinkles. Because of his job, he wears a t-shirt and jeans or shorts every day, and he doesn't want to have to iron or fluff the lines out (from folding). He also really loves t-shirts. Team shirts, racing shirts, fishing shirts, concert shirts, bar shirts.....I think he needs Shirts Anonymous....then I look at my shoes.....




Are you talking about t shirts or normal shirts? . Normal shirts are way sexier. Get him those. T shirts are for lazy weekends (to use instead of a sex towel at desperate times of need). You don’t hang those....That’s crazy  


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Are you talking about t shirts or normal shirts? . Normal shirts are way sexier. Get him those. T shirts are for lazy weekends (to use instead of a sex towel at desperate times of need). You don’t hang those....That’s crazy
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can't post it because of privacy, but if you could see how he looks in a well-fitting pair of Levis and his old metal concert t-shirt.....

....

....

I'm sorry, what were we talking about?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I can't post it because of privacy, but if you could see how he looks in a well-fitting pair of Levis and his old metal concert t-shirt.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well, I didn’t think there was anything left I haven’t yet used as masturbatory aid: but I can say with confidence that a middle aged man in jeans and a metal concert t shirt is definitely one of them. He is a lucky guy though 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> My wife however absolutely ‘demands’ of me to orgasm every time (but not too quickly



Actually that’s also not quite true: she told me that I shouldn’t hold back if I need to come urgently (which rarely happens, now that I’m in my more mature third decade).

Which makes me think that perhaps she needs me to eiaculate quickly so that she can get me off her back?! (Or front) And she secretly despised ****ing me???!!! #€$}$%!!!’

See? (To all the resentment holdingontoit guys), that’s the kind of **** you end up thinking to yourself, if you start overthinking it and don’t ask the right questions on time.

That’s not meant in a patronising way but I do find it to be the case that over time, in a more ‘mature’ marriage, you don’t always assume the most positive intentions or thoughts of your partner, like you do, when you just fall in love. (Or with blood related family. There are genetic reasons for this. Read Selfish Gene. Even though it was written by an atheist fanatic, the gene book that made him originally famous, is pretty good).
That’s an important piece of the puzzle because it is the factory, where all problems get made.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Actually that’s also not quite true: she told me that I shouldn’t hold back if I need to come urgently (which rarely happens, now that I’m in my more mature third decade).
> 
> Which makes me think that perhaps she needs me to eiaculate quickly so that she can get me off her back?! (Or front) And she secretly despised ****ing me???!!! #€$}$%!!!’
> 
> ...


Sometimes we get tired even if we love it. Or if you are older and "In the change", the moisture factor has passed, and he needs to have his finish because it is starting to hurt and you forgot to add lube to the grocery list......I mean, I heard...


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> "I'm in a really good place relationship/sexwise but always looking to understand and improve."
> 
> Do basically you dont struggle with or suffer from continual rejection, correct?


I've never suffered from continual rejection. My wife and I had that discussion before we married so that we were clear about our sexual expectations. I literally said, "one month without sex that is not caused by a medical or health problem and I will file for divorce. She replied, "I was thinking 2 weeks." I think all couples should do that and am surprised that more don't have this discussion before entering into the contract of marriage. I keep myself attractive to her and f'able. She does the same for me. The rest is communication and a willingness to learn how to adapt to changes as we grow older. 

Responsive desire has been a curveball that I had a hard time truly understanding. Seeing the act of sex, from flirting to orgasm, from a male-centric perspective was hard baggage to shred. I almost had to start over and let my wife show me how great sex would look from a woman's perspective. There's a lot more mental nuance with foreplay and seduction that a hard penis blinded me to. I can look at past relationships and see where I practiced some great techniques in creating a relaxing environment for a woman to express her sexuality but I didn't understand what was really happening. I just did it to be respectful and it worked well for me so I repeated that behavior. The understanding of WHY it works has been my most recent endeavor and sites like this have helped. I try to pass on what I have learned for those who have a spouse that is engaged in their marriage and willing to work on making it better.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> But the stats on the low ratio of sexual orgasms between men and women concerns me. I wish this gap could narrow, which is why I keep looking at the question: "Why do women experience orgasms so much less often than men and in what way is this a factor in why women avoid sex with their partners?"


My opinion is that many men do not know how to provide the environment that many women need to explore their minds to find their natural pathway to orgasm. Women are under extreme pressure to have an orgasm to appease the male ego and that's not a conducive environment for mental exploration so that they can find THEIR path to orgasm. Many women are raised to hide and be ashamed of their sexuality and haven't really explored it before entering into a sexual relationship. As women continue to increasingly demand an equal priority be given to their satisfaction in sexual relationships, I think they will learn the language and skills needed to teach men how to be better lovers.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"You should eat better, healthier, organic food, and you wouldn't be so fat and tired all the time. What is WITH all those hot dogs and spaghetti-o's????"

The doctor's wife said to the woman with 3 kids on welfare.....


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

PigglyWiggly said:


> I've never suffered from continual rejection. My wife and I had that discussion before we married so that we were clear about our sexual expectations. I literally said, "one month without sex that is not caused by a medical or health problem and I will file for divorce. She replied, "I was thinking 2 weeks."


We had a similar discussion but it was not about frequency. I believe she said "We should never say no to each other. The answer is always yes."

That sounds great and all, but that implies one is asking for it at a reasonable time and frequency. The first fifteen years it was never a problem as were both usually up for it whenever and neither of us were asking for it too frequently. I guess I wasn't counting on her hitting her 40's and doing a complete 180 with her desire and attitude toward sex. In more recent years, she just tends to avoid me in subtle ways as an indicator that she doesn't want to be asked. And she has said "no" several times though she denied that she ever has the last time I pointed it out to her. I think she's arguing semantics as shutting me down with an excuse is somehow not using the word "no" (but she literally said "no" a few times.)

I also don't suffer from continual rejection, but I do see far fewer opportunities to even ask and I don't have nuts to constantly ask during those times when she is clearly non-receptive.

Anyway. I think it's a good conversation any couple should have early on. Agree to some kind of expectation and commit to it, otherwise maybe it's a clear indicator that you're not compatible sexually.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

JamesTKirk said:


> We had a similar discussion but it was not about frequency. I believe she said "We should never say no to each other. The answer is always yes."
> 
> That sounds great and all, but that implies one is asking for it at a reasonable time and frequency. The first fifteen years it was never a problem as were both usually up for it whenever and neither of us were asking for it too frequently. I guess I wasn't counting on her hitting her 40's and doing a complete 180 with her desire and attitude toward sex. In more recent years, she just tends to avoid me in subtle ways as an indicator that she doesn't want to be asked. And she has said "no" several times though she denied that she ever has the last time I pointed it out to her. I think she's arguing semantics as shutting me down with an excuse is somehow not using the word "no" (but she literally said "no" a few times.)
> 
> ...


Great post and I feel where you are coming from. When the hormones slow down, it takes something to get women going and it seems to be mental stimulation. What mental stimulation is the puzzle we are all trying to solve. In the meantime, if your wife would LIKE for you to be sexually satisfied and have extra pressure removed from her without having more PIV sex, would she consider a handjob or blowjob or just being involved while you masturbated? With the right mindset, you can have emotional intimacy and release.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Actually that’s also not quite true: she told me that I shouldn’t hold back if I need to come urgently (which rarely happens, now that I’m in my more mature third decade).
> 
> Which makes me think that perhaps she needs me to eiaculate quickly so that she can get me off her back?! (Or front) And she secretly despised ****ing me???!!! #€$}$%!!!’
> 
> ...


This should give you some guidance on at least what *some* women think about sex.

http://www.drpsychmom.com/2014/07/1...y-no-preschooler-drawings-in-this-post-sorry/


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"Anyway. I think it's a good conversation any couple should have early on. Agree to some kind of expectation and commit to it, otherwise maybe it's a clear indicator that you're not compatible sexually."

Yes!


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

PigglyWiggly said:


> My wife and I had that discussion before we married so that we were clear about our sexual expectations. I literally said, "one month without sex that is not caused by a medical or health problem and I will file for divorce. She replied, "I was thinking 2 weeks." *I think all couples should do that and am surprised that more don't have this discussion before entering into the contract of marriage.* I keep myself attractive to her and f'able. She does the same for me. The rest is communication and a willingness to learn how to adapt to changes as we grow older.


Absolutely essential, yet probably very rarely done.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> This should give you some guidance on at least what *some* women think about sex.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.drpsychmom.com/2014/07/1...y-no-preschooler-drawings-in-this-post-sorry/



This woman (who wrote the article) is a genius. Can somebody give her a (penis-shaped) Nobel Prize, for ****s sake?
Describes (some) wimmins to a V 

Especially this part (but don’t try it on the first date):

“3- Women go into sex expecting and wanting the focus to be on their pleasure.

Au contraire, women generally do not want the primary focus of the sexual encounter to be on their pleasure. Instead, I hear female clients share frequent fantasies of being with men who are overpowered by lust and desire. In fact, the most common female sexual fantasy is rape.”

I suspect when the lust element is missing or not as prominent in a man (and after many years things can get stale), the woman can sense it too and doesn’t feel like she should be ‘giving herself up’ to a mating partner, unless he is dripping lust and desire, so to speak.
@JustTheWife should read it so that she doesn’t think she’s possessed by evil  or whatever.

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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Quote:
Originally Posted by happiness27 View Post

Another question I ask as I learned about female sexuality is: Why do women disproportionally not orgasm during sex with their partners?



> At the risk of being accused of mansplaining...
> There are possibly biological and evolutionary reasons for the disconnect in orgasms between the sexes: man absolutely needs to orgasm to procreate. For the woman, it is not necessary (though it increases the chances of procreation if she does orgasm).


My question was more pointed towards what might be inhibiting modern women from orgasming more often - or, even, wanting to orgasm? I am curious about what their answers are about that.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> This woman (who wrote the article) is a genius. Can somebody give her a (penis-shaped) Nobel Prize, for ****s sake?
> Describes (some) wimmins to a V
> 
> Especially this part (but don’t try it on the first date):
> ...


The rest of that portion you quoted states: 

*If a woman feels like her partner has the sole goal of giving her an orgasm, it is quite a lot of pressure and can make her feel self conscious and awkward. This does not mean that women do not want to enjoy sex; but, they have to feel that their partner is enjoying it at least primarily because he finds her so attractive sexually that he feels urgent desire for her. Women do not respond well to a man who is trying to use various “techniques” in order to be a better lover. This makes us feel like a sudoku puzzle you are trying to solve.*

Interesting read and set of opinions to throw into the mix of discussion - but, as always, nothing is carved in stone: http://www.drpsychmom.com/2014/07/1...y-no-preschooler-drawings-in-this-post-sorry/


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by happiness27 View Post
> 
> Another question I ask as I learned about female sexuality is: Why do women disproportionally not orgasm during sex with their partners?
> ...


Not modern but data from 20 years ago via my wife:

Pressure. When a guy finds out you've never had an orgasm or that it is hard for you to have one, your orgasm becomes his pet project and he will go through his entire skillset determined to give you an orgasm. The harder you try to have an orgasm, the harder it becomes but you keep on because you don't want to disappoint him. You might get close but if he changes one tiny thing, you have to mentally start over and the pressure increases.

Shame: If you've been told, "I've made every woman I've been with orgasm" and you haven't had one after 30 minutes of straight oral from this guy, you feel like something is wrong with you or even your vajajay. After awhile, it kills your self esteem. 

This is what she told me and I relay to you.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

PigglyWiggly said:


> In the meantime, if your wife would LIKE for you to be sexually satisfied and have extra pressure removed from her without having more PIV sex, would she consider a handjob or blowjob or just being involved while you masturbated? With the right mindset, you can have emotional intimacy and release.


This works for us.

Related to the discussion, my wife told me she needs to know in advance in order to “prepare herself”. Bugged me at first but reading TAM it’s not completely unusual. And she’s always good to go for our standing Sunday afternoon “date”. So during the week I’ll let her know that I’m coming home early or will set the alarm a little earlier tomorrow morning.


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Great post and I feel where you are coming from. When the hormones slow down, it takes something to get women going and it seems to be mental stimulation. What mental stimulation is the puzzle we are all trying to solve. In the meantime, if your wife would LIKE for you to be sexually satisfied and have extra pressure removed from her without having more PIV sex, would she consider a handjob or blowjob or just being involved while you masturbated? With the right mindset, you can have emotional intimacy and release.


I don't know. Maybe? I guess I've just been too chicken-**** to ask. Not being able to answer that makes it clear that I haven't really approached it for an answer.

The first fifteen years of our marriage, she was one way. She would pretty much do anything I wanted almost anytime whether she wanted to or not. The previous 5 years, she has been a totally different woman from my perspective and hard to read. She's much less willing to do something unless she feels SHE wants to. She has been rather cold in some ways. It has been a learning process the last five years and a lot of trial, error, and patience. Still I don't give her enough credit and I'm often surprised as to what she's interested or will do for me. I think sometimes she doesn't even know.

I'm working on relationship building at the moment. I noticed that after a pretty good run for a while things cooled off a bit and I haven't been very affectionate. When I don't feel loved, get depressed and I don't express it. When I don't express it, she cools off. I have to express it to get it. I have to be the one that works on the relationship. So I've been really focused on affection, love, and caring toward her lately which should bring her to a positive place and want to please me (and is already leading that way,) and then that's probably the best time to discuss changing up our sexual routines. Just going home and asking her tonight would be a bad idea but maybe in the next coming weeks I'll catch her at a receptive time to have a positive discussion about improving our sex life for each other.

Nice suggestion. Really what I get from this is that if I communicate what would make me happy and make a few suggestions, maybe she'll offer what she'd be willing or interested in doing. Right now honestly don't know.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> The rest of that portion you quoted states:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This should be so straightforward: man really wants to have sex. Woman really wants the man to have sex with her. Man and woman have sex. Why should there be a problem?
That, is the real sudoku puzzle. 

After a while, it seems things change to: man wants woman to want to have sex with him. Woman doesn’t want to have sex with man who appears like he doesn’t want to have sex with woman. Man and woman don’t have sex.

Man and woman argue on TAM instead of having sex.

In layman’s terms.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Not modern but data from 20 years ago via my wife:
> 
> Pressure. When a guy finds out you've never had an orgasm or that it is hard for you to have one, your orgasm becomes his pet project and he will go through his entire skillset determined to give you an orgasm. The harder you try to have an orgasm, the harder it becomes but you keep on because you don't want to disappoint him. You might get close but if he changes one tiny thing, you have to mentally start over and the pressure increases.
> 
> ...


Yeah, she took the words right outta my mouth.

But, I just wanted to ask...isn't pressure and shame also a problem for a guy's libido?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Not modern but data from 20 years ago via my wife:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Isn’t it why stupid men make great lovers but terrible life partners? (Massiv generalisation). ‘Cos they are too stupid to care about what the woman needs and are selfish in bed (which many women like as it takes some pressure off). But that doesn’t work as well outside of bedroom.
Obviously there are always exceptions (like really stupid and really bad in bed ).


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

JamesTKirk said:


> I don't know. Maybe? I guess I've just been too chicken-**** to ask. Not being able to answer that makes it clear that I haven't really approached it for an answer.
> 
> The first fifteen years of our marriage, she was one way. She would pretty much do anything I wanted almost anytime whether she wanted to or not. The previous 5 years, she has been a totally different woman from my perspective and hard to read. She's much less willing to do something unless she feels SHE wants to. She has been rather cold in some ways. It has been a learning process the last five years and a lot of trial, error, and patience. Still I don't give her enough credit and I'm often surprised as to what she's interested or will do for me. I think sometimes she doesn't even know.
> 
> ...


When I approached my wife with this arrangement, I had to explain to her that it wasn't just about an orgasm. I can have a great orgasm by myself and that sucks.. When we have any kind of sex, I bond with you, I share feelings with you, I feel desired by you, I feel like a man...YOUR man. If a bj is too much, lets do a handjob. If that's too much, I'll masturbate and you just be there....maybe shirtless or naked or whatever you feel comfortable with. Just talk to me some or touch my chest or legs or whatever you feel like but all I want is for you to be involved. I will ENJOY getting off to you because YOU are my fantasy. I will be just as happy as if we had had full on PIV sex because we've bonded and shared time together. That's what sex is to me, you and I . The orgasm is the bonus that keeps me from turning into an a-hole and going on a 3 state killing spree. 

I don't know if your version of that would get a good response from your wife but it will at least give her some options that might seem like a reasonable compromise to her. As far as being Chicken****, in MY experience, putting your feelings out there and owning who you are has ALWAYS gotten me a good response with my wife or any other woman. DO IT! you only have sperm pressure to lose


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Isn’t it why stupid men make great lovers but terrible life partners? (Massiv generalisation). *‘Cos they are too stupid to care about what the woman needs and are selfish in bed (which many women like as it takes some pressure off)*. But that doesn’t work as well outside of bedroom.
> Obviously there are always exceptions (like really stupid and really bad in bed ).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


OMG this is exactly what my wife said.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

PigglyWiggly said:


> OMG this is exactly what my wife said.



That’s why I keep my friend the 11-inch Alejuandro behind the door; when my wife is bored with my intelligence, it’s time for The Stupid to come out and pleasure her senseless while I solve the more important world problems...like why glue smells nice and won’t stick to the inside of the bottle 


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

No guarantees it will work.

My then-fiancee and I had that talk. She lied through her teeth and I was too naive to see it and enforce a boundary.

If you go this route, you must be willing to address sex issues quickly and firmly.



Buddy400 said:


> PigglyWiggly said:
> 
> 
> > My wife and I had that discussion before we married so that we were clear about our sexual expectations. I literally said, "one month without sex that is not caused by a medical or health problem and I will file for divorce. She replied, "I was thinking 2 weeks." *I think all couples should do that and am surprised that more don't have this discussion before entering into the contract of marriage.* I keep myself attractive to her and f'able. She does the same for me. The rest is communication and a willingness to learn how to adapt to changes as we grow older.
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Dr. Psych Mom. Really . Why didn't I think of that...

"Here I come, like a psychology-wielding superhero, to vanquish common misunderstandings about sex for once and for all."

Dear God, if I wrote like this in Tam I'd be stoned...*

Decent information tho...


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

I'm a woman with responsive desire. I'm also very attracted to my husband of 16 years. I know that it's important that we have sex around twice a week to keep things happy and connected. I do sometimes have spontaneous desire, but even when I don't I know intellectually I will enjoy sex so I have always had a policy of not rejecting. My husband is the same, although we've never said it explicitly. The only times he's made it clear he's not interested are when we have been having problems generally. Neither of us wants to have sex if we are not in harmony. 

Sex is like the canary in the coal mine in my marriage. When it stops singing, we are all of us in trouble and someone needs to send in the divers.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

john117 said:


> Dr. Psych Mom. Really . Why didn't I think of that...
> 
> "Here I come, like a psychology-wielding superhero, to vanquish common misunderstandings about sex for once and for all."
> 
> ...


 I would agree with you about this whole post except for the dubious assertion that it is decent information lol

I would


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"I'm a woman with responsive desire. I'm also very attracted to my husband of 16 years. I know that it's important that we have sex around twice a week to keep things happy and connected. I do sometimes have spontaneous desire, but even when I don't I know intellectually I will enjoy sex so I have always had a policy of not rejecting. "

You are the kind of woman other women should be emulating, not this jumping through hoops I have my right to say no krapp.


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

Well I do of course have the right to say no. As does he. As do we all. I just don’t really use it often and we have good non-verbal communication anyway, so it’s always clear to both of us when the other is receptive 


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I was being a bit facetious. The bottom line is that you love your husband enough and have made The Choice to become self aware enough to do what it takes to stay sexually connected with your husband. Which is what people who have made vows are supposed to do for each other


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Dusk said:


> The only times he's made it clear he's not interested are when we have been having problems generally. Neither of us wants to have sex if we are not in harmony.


Agree, but sometimes you need to just do it. It can, even if it's not the goal, make the general problems seem more solvable. Before we got married my wife said she expected sex even if we were mad at eachother. It's not always easy but has served us well.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

CharlieParker said:


> Agree, but sometimes you need to just do it. It can, even if it's not the goal, make the general problems seem more solvable. Before we got married my wife said she expected sex even if we were mad at eachother. It's not always easy but has served us well.


Agreed and let's face it, after an orgasm, we are much more agreeable to ANYthing


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> I would agree with you about this whole post except for the dubious assertion that it is decent information lol
> 
> I would


It's ok information for the most part. She offers a lot of things that may not all be applicable at the same time. Combined with the PhD attitude it's a bit of an overload. 

Standard operating procedure for all self help sites, books, etc.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I am wondering how women would feel if a man said he had a responsive desire to have a job......or help with the housework....lol


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

A good post. 

I think that the situation is complicated. If you go to a site like asexuality.org you will find that there are a significant number of women and men who can orgasm easily but who still don't want sex To most of us this seems very strange - orgasms are nice, if you are with someone you care about, why wouldn't you want one?? 

The closest explanation I can think if is imagine that you are living with your best same-sex friend (or if gay, opposite sex, if bi, I don't have an analogy). That fried could likely stimulate you to orgasm if they knew what they were doing - but you probably wouldn't *enjoy* it. 

In a significant fraction of LD/HD marriages the HD person works extremely hard to find ways to please the LD person, and is probably on average a better lover than in an average marriage. (based on board posts, and a little personal information).

I think women O less easily because it is not as biologically important for reproduction. That said, if a couple is willing to use toys during sex, and if the man has taken time to learn what pleases her, most (but of course not all) women can O. 

My wife has no problem getting an O at all. In fact its sort of strange, she generally wants me to hurry up and get her off quickly, rather than take my time. (the opposite of what women "traditionally" want). To her getting off is the *point* of sex, so might as well get the itch scratched and get back to other things. In the same way she has never understood why my favorite activities in bed aren't the ones that get me off fastest. 

I actually can imagine not having an O - I'm very slow to finish, so for many years most of the time I didn't finish during sex. 

In any case, in our situation she is unwilling to discuss it. She is convinced that we have a good sex live an that what I want is unreasonable. (while at the same time making excuses / apologies for not wanting sex). Its clearly not rational, but its also not fixable. I think she is near-asexual, simply doesn't feel sexual attraction to anyone. 






happiness27 said:


> Yes, there are women who don't enjoy sex. I was married to a man who did not like sex with me and had some sexual hangups he/we did not/could not discuss because he, himself, did not really understand it nor did he want to investigate it. I have written about that relationship here on TAM. That relationship had MANY problems and my take on the sexual issues was that it was a symptom of other incompatibilities that he and I were unable to resolve. I did not find out about his early childhood abuse between him and his mother until we had already separated and decided to divorce. He was unwilling to go to therapy to work on the marriage. Without outside help or willingness to work on it, I really felt there was no other choice but to divorce - after 9 years of trying. It's not like I gave up without trying everything I could think of.
> 
> I have a close person to me, which I don't want to disclose the nature of our relationship in an abundance of caution to protect her identity, who told me she had never experienced an orgasm. I was really surprised and didn't know what to say at the time to her. We were both young (in our 20s) and I was unaware that some women do not experience orgasm. I have learned since then that that is apparently a reported fact in sex studies.
> 
> ...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

With all the articles out there about women who are frustrsted that their man "needs" them to orgasm....stating that they can enjoy sex without one, etc. I highly doubt the answer to sexlessness is "because that man can't get her there." Just like it isn't because he doesn't buy enough flowers or do enough dishes or have enough conversations about Pinterest.

Women fought for a long time to be in charge of their own sexuality, and now mostly the SAME women are whining about how it's the man's job to get them to want sex.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> With all the articles out there about women who are frustrsted that their man "needs" them to orgasm....stating that they can enjoy sex without one, etc.


Getting that idea through my man brain was incredibly difficult (for 20 years she was super orgasmic, then not so much). But getting over that helped a lot and took some pressure off of her. So the O ratio is 2:1, but that's her choice.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I suspect it is *different* women. 



personofinterest said:


> sinp
> 
> Women fought for a long time to be in charge of their own sexuality, and now mostly the SAME women are whining about how it's the man's job to get them to want sex.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I was being a bit facetious. The bottom line is that you love your husband enough and have made The Choice to become self aware enough to do what it takes to stay sexually connected with your husband. Which is what people who have made vows are supposed to do for each other





personofinterest said:


> I am wondering how women would feel if a man said he had a responsive desire to have a job......or help with the housework....lol





personofinterest said:


> With all the articles out there about women who are frustrsted that their man "needs" them to orgasm....stating that they can enjoy sex without one, etc. I highly doubt the answer to sexlessness is "because that man can't get her there." Just like it isn't because he doesn't buy enough flowers or do enough dishes or have enough conversations about Pinterest.
> 
> Women fought for a long time to be in charge of their own sexuality, and now mostly the SAME women are whining about how it's the man's job to get them to want sex.


The thing is @personofinterest the you have suffered the sexless marriage so in some ways you have a better understanding of some of the sexless guys. 

In general, I believe that you are one of the few women that actually understands male and female sex issues. 

I don't think that all the guys are saying that women suck, I am not, but I wonder what that actual numbers are male vs female and sexless partners. 

It seems to be more men, but we have know way of knowing that. It seems that maybe more women are sexless and just stay with their husbands that they are not sexually attracted to for the comfort of the marriage? I don't know if that is true. 

I think male or female, people should just come out and say, hey I don't really love you and I am not attracted to you, lets end this...

I don't understand why anyone put up with this stuff, and I never will.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

My ex and I did counseling several years before I filed for divorce. We talked about many things....however, once sex came up, it got tense.

I think, in an attempt to make ex more comfortable, the therapist pointed out how it was more common than people think for the man to be the one not interested in sex.

My ex's takeaway from that was, "See? Lots of men are like me. That means it's not abnormal. That means I'm fine."

He completely missed that "normal" was not the point.

Every time I heard or read about how "normal" it is for women not to think about sex or women to need more incentive and warning or blah blah blah.....

I think, just because something is typical does not mean it is okay.

Denying sex to your partner is NOT okay. Period.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

CharlieParker said:


> Agree, but sometimes you need to just do it. It can, even if it's not the goal, make the general problems seem more solvable. Before we got married my wife said she expected sex even if we were mad at eachother. It's not always easy but has served us well.




Plus ‘mad sex’ can be really exhilarating! Afterwards, I have absolutely no idea what we were fighting about! (Actually I often also don’t really know beforehand, but I have even stronger happy amnesia afterwards! 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I am wondering how women would feel if a man said he had a responsive desire to have a job......or help with the housework....lol




Depends. Does he need to be enthusiastic about or can be ‘starfish’ about earning money?
Though to be fair if I loose passion for my job, I will be unemployed. But most jobs are not like that.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> My question was more pointed towards what might be inhibiting modern women from orgasming more often - or, even, wanting to orgasm? I am curious about what their answers are about that.


From a book I read "Come as You Are" by Emily Nagoski, Ph. D. that teaches Women's Sexuality in college... I'm not mansplaining here as these ideas are from a female perspective. 

Orgasm is an evolutionary bonus that females receive from sharing all the same biological parts of male reproduction. There is a chapter in the beginning of the book that describes how men and women are all made of the same parts, but we are just put together differently. By evolutionary design of sexual reproduction, females are not as geared toward orgasm as males are; however, females can still benefit from an orgasm because all the necessary parts are there.

She also goes onto explain the development of sexual self awareness. When something in the environment arouses a male, the presence of an erections helps make a very strong association. When something in the environment arouses a female, it may go unnoticed to her. Thus many women grow up without a clear understanding of their own sexuality. 

Historically women have also been given a model of the male sexual response as reference to try and understand their own sexuality. This has only served women to create confusion and make many think something may be wrong with their sexuality. 

One of the main points of the book is the statement that if there is something different about you, that it is completely normal. If a female orgasm is not as important to some women as it is to others, that is completely healthy and normal. Just "Come as You Are!"

It is a great book, everyone should read it!

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> I don't think that all the guys are saying that women suck,




I thought the issue for men is that they don’t ‘suck’ enough...Ok ok I stop now with the ‘male crudeness’ 

I think @personofinterest should start a new movement and bring back #therealfeminism where it belongs: to the bedroom 


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

badsanta said:


> From a book I read "Come as You Are" by Emily Nagoski, Ph. D. that teaches Women's Sexuality in college... I'm not mansplaining here as these ideas are from a female perspective.
> 
> Orgasm is an evolutionary bonus that females receive from sharing all the same biological parts of male reproduction. There is a chapter in the beginning of the book that describes how men and women are all made of the same parts, but we are just put together differently. By evolutionary design of sexual reproduction, females are not as geared toward orgasm as males are; however, females can still benefit from an orgasm because all the necessary parts are there.
> 
> ...


That was easily the best book on the topic I've read, and the only one my wife could even tolerate.

For me the most useful part of the book was the car analogy, that women have sexual accelerators and sexual brakes. For some, the accelerators are sluggish, but the brakes work really, really well. A guy who ends up with one of these women has a lot of understanding to do. Once he understands how this works, he's in a better position to facilitate intimacy in the relationship, and he's also less prone to taking it personally when his advances are unsuccessful.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> With all the articles out there about women who are frustrsted that their man "needs" them to orgasm....stating that they can enjoy sex without one, etc. I highly doubt the answer to sexlessness is "because that man can't get her there." Just like it isn't because he doesn't buy enough flowers or do enough dishes or have enough conversations about Pinterest.
> 
> Women fought for a long time to be in charge of their own sexuality, and now mostly the SAME women are whining about how it's the man's job to get them to want sex.


And, if their sexual experience isn't exactly what they'd hoped it would be, that's the man's fault as well.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> I think male or female, people should just come out and say, hey I don't really love you and I am not attracted to you, lets end this...
> 
> I don't understand why anyone put up with this stuff, and I never will.


I was poking around the internet on the topic of 'My wife says the best sex she ever had was with another man" (no, this doesn't apply to me, I'm just twisted).

I found a lot of articles by women recommending not marrying someone you have great sex with since guys you have great sex with often make rotten husbands. They also stress how other qualities in a man are so much more important that his sexual capabilities. I guess this may all work out as long as the women is still willing to occasionally have sex with her non-sexy husband, but it highlights how much less importance can have in relationships for women than it does for men. 

So, I think many women can not particularly enjoy sex with their husband but still love him and be happily married. 

It's up to the guy to let them know that this option isn't actually viable.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> I found a lot of articles by women recommending not marrying someone you have great sex with since guys you have great sex with often make rotten husbands.


OMG, that sounds like horrible advice. Before we got married we did have long look at "it's not just about the sex, right?" At the time we agree no it wasn't JUST about the sex. Now we joke, yeah, it is just about the sex.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That was easily the best book on the topic I've read, and the only one my wife could even tolerate.
> 
> For me the most useful part of the book was the car analogy, that women have sexual accelerators and sexual brakes. For some, the accelerators are sluggish, but the brakes work really, really well. A guy who ends up with one of these women has a lot of understanding to do. Once he understands how this works, he's in a better position to facilitate intimacy in the relationship, and *he's also less prone to taking it personally when his advances are unsuccessful.*


That is an important aspect of a marital relationship is not taking things personally when an advance is unsuccessful. I have actually found that THAT in and of itself can be a successful advance! 

My wife might tell me that tonight there is just no way possible that she will be able to get in the mood. I might smile and make a grand claim for her to have no worries because that just so happens to be my specialty and that I am already planning for the most grandiose and spectacular failure of initiating intimacy that she has ever seen. 



She giggles and then the mood changes!

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

badsanta said:


> That is an important aspect of a marital relationship is not taking things personally when an advance is unsuccessful. I have actually found that THAT in and of itself can be a successful advance!
> 
> My wife might tell me that tonight there is just no way possible that she will be able to get in the mood. I might smile and make a grand claim for her to have no worries because that just so happens to be my specialty and that I am already planning for the most grandiose and spectacular failure of initiating intimacy that she has ever seen.
> 
> ...


Yes!

One of the things that freed me the most was when I realized my ex's rejection was NOT about me. I wasn't near as distressed and depressed because I knew I wasn't "failing."

I think that is why women who ALWAYS respond to men who are sex starved by pointing out what they should be doing to make her want sex, blah blah bugs me. It reinforces the idea that if my partner chooses to continually reject me, I am a failure.

Nope. Sometimes it really IS the withholding partner's problem - and NOT one that the rejected partner is responsible for fixing.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I thought the issue for men is that they don’t ‘suck’ enough...Ok ok I stop now with the ‘male crudeness’
> 
> I think @personofinterest should start a new movement and bring back #therealfeminism where it belongs: to the bedroom
> 
> ...


I do have a page and hashtag that concerns reclaiming feminine dignity and standing up for men.....

I bet about 5 or 6 male posters just passed out reading that.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> I do have a page and hashtag that concerns reclaiming feminine dignity and standing up for men.....
> 
> I bet about 5 or 6 male posters just passed out reading that.


,,, and a few women as well, no doubt.


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

CharlieParker said:


> Agree, but sometimes you need to just do it. It can, even if it's not the goal, make the general problems seem more solvable. Before we got married my wife said she expected sex even if we were mad at eachother. It's not always easy but has served us well.




That wouldn’t work for me at all. Or my husband. Having sex that I’m not into feels horrible and can lead to me starting to feel sex averse. That’s not a good thing for any marriage. 


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Dusk said:


> CharlieParker said:
> 
> 
> > Agree, but sometimes you need to just do it. It can, even if it's not the goal, make the general problems seem more solvable. Before we got married my wife said she expected sex even if we were mad at eachother. It's not always easy but has served us well.
> ...


 This one can be tricky. If my husband or I or both are just PV and grumpy and testy and getting on each other's nerves, a good romp can be a way to relieve the tension. But if there has been a serious conflict where someone was really hurt, I don't think having 6 would be and answer. In fact it might create a negative association. Now, wants the conflict was resolved or apologies made, sex would be a great way to put a nice healing on the wound.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Yes!
> 
> One of the things that freed me the most was when I realized my ex's rejection was NOT about me. I wasn't near as distressed and depressed because I knew I wasn't "failing."
> 
> ...


BINGO. This is why rejection is not a notion to dwell upon. Better to move on to the solutions that work for that couple.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> BINGO. This is why rejection is not a notion to dwell upon. Better to move on to the solutions that work for that couple.


That's not how it works...


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Is a partner being rejected or is the act of sex being rejected, an important distinction that needs to be made.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

A woman’s approach to addressing an interpersonal problem is different than a man. This was made clear to me one time when my wife and I were discussing having to counsel our employee on her performance. 

A man would be direct, call her out and either give an ultimatum or a way they can fix it. That’s what we do each other. But to be a woman on the receiving end... that would be a significant emotional event.

Women are very sensitive and try to address things in a non-confrontational way without bluntly hurting feelings. Maybe thats what’s going on here. She thinks “I can’t tell my husband he sucks in bed, that would devastate him and make things worse” or “I can’t tell him I see him more as a friend” or I love you but I’m not in love with you. So she comes up with other ways to get avoid sex. They do this all the time with each other. They won’t call a girlfriend out on her eating disorder but will drop hints, use covert measures or ignore it but will definitely talk about it behind the woman’s back with each other.

Men are characterized as being light switches and women as dimmers. I think this is mostly true except two cases: 1) having their sexual advances turned by a person they recently got to know... guy is immediately written off with prejudice 2) they’ve decided to take their heart elsewhere. My neighbor was like this. Tried to work it out with husband, floundered, she met someone else on a work trip, switch flipped, he tried to reconcile but she had taken her heart elsewhere.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

@aaarghdub let's not mistake personality differences and management styles, for gender differences. Of course men and women are different. Yet being conflict avoidant is not a condition that only afflicts women, so what you're saying simply isn't true.

My wife has been in government management roles for several years now, and was before that in supervisory roles. Yet she is not at all conflict avoidant, is very direct and has not hesitated in tackling performance issues directly with personnel as required. Which has included formal warnings, retraining, performance management and has even tackled union involvement as well.

Nor has she shied away from implementing restructures, implementing workplace change and the like. She has also addressed community violence issues, and used legislative measures to address some problems when required.


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## shortbus (Jul 25, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> My ex and I did counseling several years before I filed for divorce. We talked about many things....however, once sex came up, it got tense.
> 
> I think, in an attempt to make ex more comfortable, the therapist pointed out how it was more common than people think for the man to be the one not interested in sex.
> 
> ...


Wish you could've talked to my wife a long time ago!


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Is a partner being rejected or is the act of sex being rejected, an important distinction that needs to be made.


 For a person who has sexual intimacy as a core emotional need, it's basically one in the same. For example, can you imagine a husband saying I'm not rejecting you dear I'm just rejecting having any conversations with you. Yeah right.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Is a partner being rejected or is the act of sex being rejected, an important distinction that needs to be made.


For some people this actually is an important question to ask.

Is a person averse to sex with anyone or with that particular partner?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Personal said:


> @aaarghdub let's not mistake personality differences and management styles, for gender differences. Of course men and women are different. Yet being conflict avoidant is not a condition that only afflicts women, so what you're saying simply isn't true.
> 
> My wife has been in government management roles for several years now, and was before that in supervisory roles. Yet she is not at all conflict avoidant, is very direct and has not hesitated in tackling performance issues directly with personnel as required. Which has included formal warnings, retraining, performance management and has even tackled union involvement as well.
> 
> Nor has she shied away from implementing restructures, implementing workplace change and the like. She has also addressed community violence issues, and used legislative measures to address some problems when required.


Good observation. 

I am upfront and straight forward where my husband avoids conflict at nearly all costs in any situation in life. He's not a wimp, its just his style of getting along in the world. He has a high threshold of what conflicts require an aggressive reaction.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> That is an important aspect of a marital relationship is not taking things personally when an advance is unsuccessful. I have actually found that THAT in and of itself can be a successful advance!
> 
> My wife might tell me that tonight there is just no way possible that she will be able to get in the mood. I might smile and make a grand claim for her to have no worries because that just so happens to be my specialty and that I am already planning for the most grandiose and spectacular failure of initiating intimacy that she has ever seen.
> 
> ...


Humor can be such a libido booster. Good on you.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

My own experiences with sex stem from being born in the 50s and the sexual attitudes of the times. By the time I was 10, the sexual revolution still had not reached the small Midwest towns where I was growing up. We didn't have Playboys in the house or alcohol in the house and I had a very religious upbringing where the word fornication was brought up (when I was a teen in church) as something to avoid. Hell, I had no idea what fornication meant, it never crossed my mind until they brought it up in Sunday school class. I was mortified that the subject was being discussed. The man who brought it up was the choir director who for some reason was teaching the class that day. I admired him so much but at no time did I associate him with such a bizarre subject and I was deeply embarrassed sitting there kind of "on the spot" in a group of other young people that I didn't know how they were reacting to this information. But I just wanted to get the hell out of there. 

I had never had sex, didn't know how to have sex, didn't reference my childhood SA with what they were talking about - just completely naive. Whether I should or shouldn't have been is irrelevant. I WAS horrified. No one had talked to me about sex. While I had a steady boyfriend at some point when I was 15 or 16, we didn't talk about the sex act, we only did the "make out" stuff - and it didn't occur to me that this was leading somewhere besides kissing and loving on each other in sort of tingly kind of ways. 

I don't know if there is anyone on TAM who can relate to this supreme lack of sexual understanding but you just feel secretive and tense about anyone finding out what you are feeling. Everything I was experiencing was a secret pleasure that also included shame for feeling those feelings. Big conflict.

"Nice girls" don't have sex before marriage and no one is going to tell you about what exactly sex entails. I seriously thought that the way women got pregnant was when a man and woman touched hands when they got married, that's how babies somehow got made.

Yes, we had some stupid sex ed class in 6th grade where they showed us that women made eggs and men made sperms - but they failed to tell us how the egg and sperm got together.

I remember coming home from the class and innocently asking my mom that question. "I know that there is an egg and sperm - but how do they get together?" My mom was ashen. She was standing in the kitchen stirring gravy and she got this look on her face like she was scared and said, quickly "I don't think you need to know about that right now." I was 12. I was, like, scared, too, because I thought I had said something really wrong. She wasn't mad at me but I could tell she was scared about something I didn't understand.

I was very attracted to boys in junior high and had a couple of boyfriends where we would "make out" at parties but it was a bunch of kissing. I guess in a way I should be grateful that those two boys didn't do anymore than that as I heard rumors about 1st base, 2nd base, etc. But my steady boyfriend through high school was the one with whom we very slowly explored sexual things. He was also a virgin although I'm sure he knew more than I did. 

I can remember clearly the first time he kissed my breasts - I never knew that was even a thing - and it just made me wild but I asked him "Where did you come up with that?" He just smiled and sort of said "I don't know." and we continued to some degree but I was experiencing an elevation of excitement I really didn't know. 

In spite of the SA, I still had no understanding of the sex act. The one time in SA that there was penal involvement, the lights were off and I didn't know what was going on. I was not penetrated but I could feel what I now know was a penis rubbing against me. Do you realize how insanely stupid that I felt later in my life when I looked back and with my adult brain put together what had happened? Stupid, I felt so completely stupid - and shameful and scared because I had voluntarily allowed him to do that to me. Somewhere in my head, I let this abuser talk me into allowing him slowly over time to do more and more secretive rubbing, touching stuff to me because I liked him and trusted him and thought he was being nice to me. It's the insidiousness of SA. This messed up, f-d up confusion of pleasure, shame and secretive connection. I was 9 or 10. No one else in our household knew. My dad would probably have killed him. My mom probably would have been terrified about how to choose between her love for her daughter and her love for her older son. The family would have come apart. The family structure hinged upon me keeping my mouth shut.

By the time the relationship with my HS boyfriend finally progressed to "Okay, let's try this (intercourse)" I still did not know exactly what would happen. Had no idea it would hurt, that I would bleed, that everything would stop because of that, anything about birth control, condoms or any of that stuff. No one to talk to - God knows you didn't tell your girlfriends back then or your parents or siblings - I went home alone convinced I had coincidentally started my period. I was so disappointed. I thought it was going to feel good. I didn't know what went wrong. I was scared and alone and all that shame and fear and secretiveness came back. 

When the concept that sex is a simple way of showing love to your spouse come up on TAM, if I say that different people are different and bring more complexity to the sexual experience, please know that where I'm coming from is a place of compassion for people who may not have had a lot of happy early sexual experiences (prior to the marriage). These issues CAN BE worked out - as I am a testament to - through therapy and guidance...but every person has their own abilities and willingness to overcome whatever their personal issues are. 

I deeply admire people who view sex with no reservations and who had nothing to overcome and who carry no baggage that causes inhibitions. I damn well wish that was the case for me. That sounds like paradise. 

But what I needed and need more than anything is a partner who *gets* the crazy sometimes. And my husband does get it. He's my love, my life, my angel. I could never replace him and I know that. I got the gift of one great man and I treasure him. 

I cannot speak to a general audience of people by saying: "You should do exactly *this* to be happy." Every person and every couple is unique. What I can say is there is hope through GOOD counseling if a couple chooses to pursue that. What my husband and I found out about each other through counseling and BOTH of us working towards a stronger relationship, ultimately made us a stronger couple. I know things don't work out for every couple. I know this because I had two previous marriages that didn't work out. I deeply feel for you if you face struggle in your relationship. My story will fall flat for some people and one should feel free to ignore it. 

But, if you could be kind, at least understand that I don't need yet another person to tell me that my experiences are invalid, that I should just get over my shame and if I had only just been a nice girl, these things wouldn't have happened to me. Thank freakin' GOD I have a husband with whom sharing these things was a respectful experience. And thank GOD I was finally able to talk about it. 

Just because I was able to talk about it, doesn't mean every person should or will be able to talk about it - OR, that it was EASY for me, therefore I'm unique. It was NOT easy, it was damn difficult. So, I get it that it would be difficult for anyone.

You are told as a young girl to keep your knees together and then when you get married, you''re supposed to have a bunch of sex. For some people, that's going to be a difficult leap.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> My own experiences with sex stem from being born in the 50s and the sexual attitudes of the times. By the time I was 10, the sexual revolution still had not reached the small Midwest towns where I was growing up. We didn't have Playboys in the house or alcohol in the house and I had a very religious upbringing where the word fornication was brought up (when I was a teen in church) as something to avoid. Hell, I had no idea what fornication meant, it never crossed my mind until they brought it up in Sunday school class. I was mortified that the subject was being discussed. The man who brought it up was the choir director who for some reason was teaching the class that day. I admired him so much but at no time did I associate him with such a bizarre subject and I was deeply embarrassed sitting there kind of "on the spot" in a group of other young people that I didn't know how they were reacting to this information. But I just wanted to get the hell out of there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It’s very brave of you to talk about your SA. Was the guy much older?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> It’s very brave of you to talk about your SA. Was the guy much older?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


5 years.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> 5 years.



When I was about 7 or 8 I used to play with a girl. Sometimes we would crawl together under the bed and undress each other. She pretended to be a doctor and I was the patient (my favourite) who suffered from chronic swellings, a bit below the belly button....Sometimes we would switch roles.

It was exciting but I honestly don’t think I knew what the hell i was doing or what it meant at that age. I was just going with the flow. Sometimes when I think back about it, I wonder if she thinks she was sexually abused by me.
Once her mother saw us naked together and it was really embarrassing. I was worried she would tell my parents.
I’m not sure how early one should start sexual education. But when my 5 year old comes back from school and tells me with a massive grin that a girl kissed him on the lips (as well as 6 other boys, as it turned out; sounds like she is really doing the rounds there...), I don’t really know how to react. I say stupid things like ‘you only kiss someone on the lips when you are married’. Which sounds kind of prejudiced because I don’t actually believe that...
Obviously the older you get the more aware you become. But that takes time.

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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Inmyprime, your childhood "doctor is absolutely normal." I remember reading that an 8 year old boy was accused of sexual abuse because he touched a 5 year old. Ridiculous stupidity. An 8 year old is not developmentally able to grasp that.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Inmyprime, your childhood "doctor is absolutely normal." I remember reading that an 8 year old boy was accused of sexual abuse because he touched a 5 year old. Ridiculous stupidity. An 8 year old is not developmentally able to grasp that.



But it’s still obviously illegal. And it’s more about that girl’s recollections; her memories could be worse than the actual events, I cannot know. But reading about traumas women carry with them their whole life from certain events, it makes me worried. Especially if religious aspects are involved: if someone touched you down there, you probably never feel the same again (because of that knowledge).

I do wonder when one is able to grasp everything though. I’m not even sure 16 is the age where suddenly all the consequences of actions become completely clear. It’s obviously a continuum (although for legal purposes, it is not).
I read somewhere that one shouldn’t make any important decision until the age of 28 (for males it’s higher than females) because the brain has not fully developed that part, according to scientists. Though I do expect that at 18, most things should be pretty clear by then, in terms of rights and wrongs and consequences/responsibility.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Inmyprime, your childhood "doctor is absolutely normal." I remember reading that an 8 year old boy was accused of sexual abuse because he touched a 5 year old. Ridiculous stupidity. An 8 year old is not developmentally able to grasp that.




Just to expand a bit: I also remember just not having as strong morals at 16-17 than I did later (after 20-25). I don’t think one can say with certainty that at 18, you are a fully fledged person with ‘finished’ morals. It doesn’t mean I was evil before just that I would do things or follow ‘bad examples’ (friends) or cross a line which I would never do now. (For example, I dated two girls at once when I was 16 and thought nothing of it which I would never do now. If I was single.)


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > 5 years.
> ...


15 and 10, then at 16, he brought in his friends.

Not going to get into a discussion here about how what happened to me is invalid.

That last time when all his friends ganged in I screamed bloody murder and got away.

Go ahead, tear apart the scenario and tell me it wasn't what it was.

I share my story for a reason: to somewhere, somehow with some people that may help them understand that sex isn't a simple thing for some people.

It can be complex and frightening. Overcoming the experiences then and later in life has taken a large effort. I have overcome a lot. I have a stable sex life but I worked at it. Other people have their own histories. We are all unique. Its easy to find people to minimize and few people to be compassionate. I know I put myself out here with the risk that my story would be minimized, justified, discarded, ridiculed.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> 15 and 10, then at 16, he brought in his friends.
> 
> Not going to get into a discussion here about how what happened to me is invalid.
> 
> ...



I’m sorry, I’m not ‘minimising’ or ‘ridiculing’ your story at all. I was just telling my story. 
(Which is a stupid story by comparison) but the point is (which maybe I didn’t manage to put across clearly enough) is that years after, I feel very guilty about. Because I didn’t understand what we were doing at the time.
Maybe it helps you to know that that guy might feel the same (after he grew up). Maybe not. It doesn’t really matter.
But I learnt it is easier to live if you can forgive (mainly yourself but also others).


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > 15 and 10, then at 16, he brought in his friends.
> ...


There's a huge difference between innocent curiosity and intentional, knowlegable intent - between an 8 and a 15, 16 year old. the 15/16 year old who molested me was not innocent and knew what he doing and that it was wrong.

My high school boyfriend and his buddies were at that same age, lectured by their coach that "15 will get you 30." 

By high school age, at least some young men were getting clear lectures about the legalities of sex.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

My actual point in posting was to raise the possible idea that people's attitudes about sex may involve complexities, large or small as we are all individuals. Sex isn't always as simple as black and white.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> My actual point in posting was to raise the possible idea that people's attitudes about sex may involve complexities, large or small as we are all individuals. Sex isn't always as simple as black and white.



I don’t think anyone would argue with this.
But do you mean that had those incidents not happen, you’d have felt different about sex?
I don’t think it’s possible to know but one assumes that all experiences that life throws at us, shape us a certain way. To what extent, nobody knows.
I had other things happen to me later (by actual sexual predators, including a pedophile, 30-40 years older than me at the time) and it had no effect on my sexual drive: still HD, though slightly twisted 


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"But it’s still obviously illegal."

You're kidding, right? An 8 year old boy

Now a 15 year old boy, sure.

But not 8. Silliness


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I was 12 when an 18 year old boy raped me.

It was absolutely rape

But the 7 year old boy who wanted to compare pee pees when I was 5? No. Just normal curiosity. Period


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> "But it’s still obviously illegal."
> 
> You're kidding, right? An 8 year old boy
> 
> ...




It’s not silliness. Any minor engaged in a sexual activity can be charged and put on a sex offender’s register. That’s the law as I understand it. 
But I wasn’t talking about the law.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> For some people this actually is an important question to ask.
> 
> Is a person averse to sex with anyone or with that particular partner?


TAM thinks it's for a particular partner.... I have my doubts for the hardcore cases.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> Good observation.
> 
> I am upfront and straight forward where my husband avoids conflict at nearly all costs in any situation in life. He's not a wimp, its just his style of getting along in the world. He has a high threshold of what conflicts require an aggressive reaction.


I prefer manipulation to conflict. A bit more legwork but worth the effort.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I don’t think anyone would argue with this.
> But do you mean that had those incidents not happen, you’d have felt different about sex?
> I don’t think it’s possible to know but one assumes that all experiences that life throws at us, shape us a certain way. To what extent, nobody knows.
> I had other things happen to me later (by actual sexual predators, including a pedophile, 30-40 years older than me at the time) and it had no effect on my sexual drive: still HD, though slightly twisted
> ...


I think where I'm going with this is that it's POSSIBLE that in some cases that rejection isn't being done by a spouse who is mean, vile, hateful, malicious. YES, there ARE such people. 

But I'm offering another possible theory that there are spouses who have some twisted sexual history that they may or may not be comfortable talking about which effects their attitudes towards sex. IF, in the case of such spouses, they can somehow, sometime, somewhere in their lives become aware of their discomfort as an issue that COULD POSSIBLY be overcome and bring them into a (so-called) "normal" balance, they could heal what MIGHT need to be healed in them in order for them to see sex as a non-threatening expression of love.

Remember, I have noted in this post that YES, there are mean, vicious people in this world who use sex as a weapon (even among these people, there are ISSUES) - but there are also spouses who are just clueless about their own avoidance of sex - the whys and wherefore of their attitudes and behaviors. 

Some, I'm sorry to say, will be embedded and hopelessly beyond any help. My heart goes out to them AND their spouses because no one wishes sexual issues upon themselves. 

But, for others and other marriages, there IS hope where there is compassion and both people come to a willingness to move towards healing.

I know my own illustration may seem somewhat extreme. I have no idea how extreme it actually is. To me, I consider myself lucky compared to other stories I've heard. Yet, I have friends and family to whom nothing like that has ever happened.

Here's what I've concluded though about life: Everybody gets dealt a set of cards. How you play your cards becomes your journey.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I think where I'm going with this is that it's POSSIBLE that in some cases that rejection isn't being done by a spouse who is mean, vile, hateful, malicious. YES, there ARE such people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes the last bit is true of course and that’s the point: the ‘twisted sexual history’ is probably true for the majority of people (male or female) but it’s important how we choose to live now.
So how many times a wife chooses to ‘reject’ a husband sexually NOW, matters.
It’s basically about whether and how much her reasons are more important than his needs (and the general, marriage’s ‘need’ to be sexually connected with each other).
Best to talk about specifics though rather than generalities.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Yes the last bit is true of course and that’s the point: the ‘twisted sexual history’ is probably true for the majority of people (male or female) but it’s important how we choose to live now.
> So how many times a wife chooses to ‘reject’ a husband sexually NOW, matters.
> It’s basically about whether and how much her reasons are more important than his needs (and the general, marriage’s ‘need’ to be sexually connected with each other).
> Best to talk about specifics though rather than generalities.
> ...



For the partner with the traumatic past and is self aware of it, the issue is whether they want to deal with it or no. There are plenty of marriages where one partner decides it better to not face it and deal with the consequences (affair, divorce, etc). Obviously most couples had plenty of sex before or early on in the marriage and something triggered them. Good marriages foster a safe harbor for growth and healing.

The tangible need for meaningful/passionate sex is being invalidated and has been fought to a stalemate. That’s the symptom. Meanwhile the long-term issue of how the trauma is affecting the couple is really the root cause.

So you either come together as a couple, realize the underlying trauma needs to be treated and given space to heal. Or you keep your partner at arms length and expect them just accept it. Problem is you can’t be surprised if they wanna give up waiting outside the DMZ for the war to be over.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

aaarghdub said:


> For the partner with the traumatic past and is self aware of it, the issue is whether they want to deal with it or no. There are plenty of marriages where one partner decides it better to not face it and deal with the consequences (affair, divorce, etc). Obviously most couples had plenty of sex before or early on in the marriage and something triggered them. Good marriages foster a safe harbor for growth and healing.
> 
> The tangible need for meaningful/passionate sex is being invalidated and has been fought to a stalemate. That’s the symptom. Meanwhile the long-term issue of how the trauma is affecting the couple is really the root cause.
> 
> ...



In a marriage, we just aren't living for one person anymore. We do have the other person to consider. And all that math, science, history we studied in high school has far less importance in our daily lives than "How to successfully navigate relationships." Here we are as human beings - most of us trying to be DECENT human beings and nobody gave us the book or the course in how to handle the life experience that we most needed to understand.

Just an aside - I do want to acknowledge every person who has taken the time to post replies. I've learned a lot by reading what you think and how you feel and what your take is on life. You've caused me to consider a much broader range of thinking - which, to me, is something I find valuable.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yes the last bit is true of course and that’s the point: the ‘twisted sexual history’ is probably true for the majority of people (male or female) but it’s important how we choose to live now.
> So how many times a wife chooses to ‘reject’ a husband sexually NOW, matters.
> It’s basically about whether and how much her reasons are more important than his needs (and the general, marriage’s ‘need’ to be sexually connected with each other).
> Best to talk about specifics though rather than generalities.
> ...


You've been very candid and thoughtful. I wonder about how one determines whose thinking and needs are of greater importance than the other? 

If you consider the point you've made there, how would a couple approach that? I wonder if each person acknowledges the other, would that provide some relief for the tension between "I want this..." and "Well, I want THIS..."

How does a couple come to an understanding between each other about opposing wants and needs? Maybe BOTH people's wants and needs are of equal importance. Surely both would serve each other well to work at a common solution? Sometimes, if they get stuck, could marriage counseling provide some outside perspective?

It's true that you can lead a horse to water...so, at some point, the couple does have to make progress or I can see where they would get frustrated and want to throw in the towel.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> If you consider the point you've made there, how would a couple approach that?



They talk to each other rather than play the guessing game or wait for the other’s signal to make a move (or what that move might mean).
It’s different for each couple.
Again, I think best to discuss specifics.
One can have the best ideas in theory, but each couple needs individual approach to figure out what the cause of the mismatch might be, how big the mismatch is or what the compromise might be.
If you can get them into one room to talk to each other, that’s 80% of the work done.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> If you can get them into one room to talk to each other, that’s 80% of the work done.


Only in the cases where the couple finds a way to work past their hangups.

In many cases, the couple can spend eternity in a room talking to each other, alone or with an intermediary, and still produce zero forward movement toward an amicable solution.

If we are talking about cases of abuse, rape, etc., in many cases the victim has no intention of working through the trauma. In those cases, many are willing to spend an infinite amount of time talking about the lack of sex. Because every minute spent talking is a minute spent not having sex. Important for the HD eventually to realize that more talk is pointless.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> In a marriage, we just aren't living for one person anymore.


Exactly, which is why a wife who withholds sex needs to stop being selfish.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> > In a marriage, we just aren't living for one person anymore.
> 
> 
> Exactly, which is why a wife who withholds sex needs to stop being selfish.


Or the couple can decide to part. Since it's impossible to force a person to have sex against their will, sexually incompatible couples have to decide for themselves when divorce is the best option. I can't see how it would work to shame or manipulate another into sex. Whatever reason a spouse has for not engaging in willing, enthusiastic sex is no longer the problem of a spouse who decides to divorce over that issue.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Or the couple can decide to part. Since it's impossible to *force a person to have sex against their will*, sexually incompatible couples have to decide for themselves when divorce is the best option. I can't see how it would work to *shame or manipulate another into se*x. Whatever reason a spouse has for not engaging in willing, enthusiastic sex is no longer the problem of _a spouse who decides to divorce over that issue_.


Sigh....yeah, I definitely suggested the bolded....



Good lord

I surrender


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Sigh....yeah, I definitely suggested the bolded....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Telling women to "stop being selfish" works...how? The answer is: It doesn't.

I've posted extensively on this thread about the nuances regarding sex and sexual incompatibilities. Sexual thoughts, ideas and behaviors are not black and white - you either pony up or else you're being selfish.

I've repeatedly said that yes, there are spouses who weaponize sex. Acknowledged. 

There are likely infinite different personalities in this world and infinite combinations of experiences people have, including sexual experiences.

A spouse who is not getting the sex life they want has the option at any time how to approach that situation and the options are many. What I'm saying is that the options I wouldn't want to use on a spouse is to shame or manipulate them into sex. "You're just being selfish. You need to have enthusiastic sex with me XX times per month/week."

In no way am I suggesting that anyone should just put up with a sexless marriage. But I am suggesting that a spouse whose sex life is not to their liking at least not stoop to a method that doesn't work. Shaming and fighting with a spouse who is unwilling to have sex to the degree that another person wants is not a healthy scenario. 

Counseling
Marriage Counseling
Sex Counseling
or Divorce

I wouldn't suggest any person resort to mean behavior to try and force their spouse to do something. Just get out of the marriage if that is the option one wants to choose. I also acknowledge that it's a very hard choice to make. It's such a hard choice to make that many people stay unhappy far beyond when they first became unhappy. I know I did. I also acknowledge that there are some marriages - perhaps many - where the issues in the marriage were not JUST about sex - but, rather, that the problems between the two people were being played out in their sex life.

I just don't like the idea of saying "The spouse who doesn't take care of their spouse's sexual needs is selfish and needs to do that whether they feel like it or not." And the reason I don't like the idea is because...it doesn't work.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Telling women to "stop being selfish" works...how?


I didn't tell any women to stop being selfish. I made a comment on a thread.

You seem to believe that the selfishness does not exist. We are obviously never going to agree.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Exactly, which is why a wife who withholds sex needs to stop being selfish.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

So.....do you know the name of the specific woman I was speaking directly to?

Or, as I stated, was it a general statement about withholding women in general made on a forum?

Sorry, your little hair splitting passive aggressive routine doesn't make you right.

But by all means, keep travelling down the rabbit hole.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

It's not selfish to withhold sex from you your partner.

It is selfish to not acknowledge your partners concerns and give one's best effort in trying to address them.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> It's not selfish to withhold sex from you your partner.
> 
> It is selfish to not acknowledge your partners concerns and give one's best effort in trying to address them.


Right. Two people who are effectively talking and listening who are committed and love each other are going to have much greater success. 

One thing that I think is probably as bad or worse than this so-called LD/HD situation is a LC/HC situation (low communication/high communication). MC (and putting into practice what we learned there) really helped my husband and me communicate more effectively - and led to a lot better relationship in many areas.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> Telling women to "stop being selfish" works...how? The answer is: It doesn't.


 @happiness27, I think you are interpreting "stop being selfish" as meaning "start consenting to sex you don't want". I can totally understand how you would interpret it that way. Many posters here interpret it that way. But I don't think @personofinterest meant it that way.

Another way to interpret it is "stop lying, or stop omitting the truth". Stop telling your SO that you are tired if you aren't. Stop telling them you are hot for them if you aren't. Stop telling them that if they jump through the following 5 hoops, you will likely be in the mood for sex. Stop telling them that your lack of interest is about their behavior if it is about some sexual trauma that happened to you in the past. Stop giving them hope that, if they try hard enough and invest enough in pleasing you outside the bedroom, then you will start pleasing them in the bedroom. Stop being selfish, and give your SO (who you proclaim to love), the information they need to make an informed decision on whether to stay married to you. Lying and hiding the truth so they stay with you when you know it is probably in their best interest to leave is incredibly selfish. Women can stop doing that without having any sex at all.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

@Happyiness27, I love your writing, no doubt. 

Now, having said that, I just cannot get behind your thought process regarding sex, and I have tried.

Now, maybe I am too simplistic, or simply too cut throat, but it does not work that way for me and it never will. 

Whatever woman that I am with, while I hope that she loves me, I hope that she sees all the good qualities, that I posses, I know that she wants to screw me. 

Now one or the other can be tired, of sick, of in a pissy mood every so often, that is fine. 

If it happens more than once or twice in a row, then I have an issue. We can talk, we can try to work it out, I am fine with that. 

However, if it does not get fixed in a HURRY, sorry, she is toast. So all of the flowers, cooking, back rubs, presents, listening to everything she wants to talk about... All of that stops. 

It is replaced with divorce papers, or silence if we are not married. 

Now, I bring a lot, I am a great lover, not talking sexually I am talking all the OTHER Stuff that woman say that they want.

But if you are not sexual and sexually attracted to me, SEE YOU LATER.

Your thought process, for me, just does not work...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > Telling women to "stop being selfish" works...how? The answer is: It doesn't.
> ...


Thanks for clarifying. And I think I just addressed what you said by talking about a spouse who doesn't communicate or otherwise plays games. Yeah, divorce. We don't disagree.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> @Happyiness27, I love your writing, no doubt.
> 
> Now, having said that, I just cannot get behind your thought process regarding sex, and I have tried.
> 
> ...


My writing and thought process has, in many posts, included divorce as an option...if you read the posts. So, we actually agree, based on what you've just posted. Yes, if two people are incompatible sexually, divorce is an option. Check out my posts where I say exactly that.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> Thanks for clarifying. And I think I just addressed what you said by talking about a spouse who doesn't communicate or otherwise plays games. Yeah, divorce. We don't disagree.


Divorce and potentially pay thru the nose if you're unlucky enough to live in a state that is stuck in times past...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

All this great, and it's important, talk about best way a F can reject her partner (whether married, in an ltr, str, or even if recently met) reminds me of the very real "power" or call it what you will, a F has when in certain social roles.

And the role / varying roles do affect a woman's very strong impact on her partner when she refuses sex.

My comment here is to reinforce the effect of a woman, in the right role or circumstance to those here who may not truly appreciate the depth and interaction between M and F.

Imagine an attractive F at a Cracker Barrel or any restaurant, taking orders and such to a group of men and women, she's definitely treated respectfully, no worries, and here (not meaning any disrespect) she's treated as a server, no one really cares about her interests or approval. 

Take that same woman, put her in a tight pair of Jean's or dress, have her meet in a chance encounter with one of the same men at a bar, where the man thinks he has a chance of getting "close"to her, and what she wants/her interests can become the most important thing in the world to said man, because he's thinking about sex.

Now she's "in charge". And as a rule the man will go for anything she wants when he feels he has a chance. He may want just sex or to really get to know her. 

No malicious acts intended to be portrayed here as this couple may or not get closer. 

But as a rule, she'll lead the success or no go between the two.

And the man almost automatically realizes she has this great influence over him.

So, this is just one example. Women do have a very important and critical impact on men.

Just my 2 cents.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> It's not selfish to withhold sex from you your partner.
> 
> It is selfish to not acknowledge your partners concerns and give one's best effort in trying to address them.


It's hilarious to me how many people ASSUME this is always the case. Some (read many) people spend YEARS trying to "address concerns" and be the perfect partner, only to be met with continued coldness in the3 bedroom.

So yeah...withholding sex absolutely IS selfish when your partner is twisting themselves into a pretzel trying to give you what you need.

Yes it is.

You don't have to like the truth.

But a spouse who withholds from me the most intimate acts and care, acts and care I can only ethically share with them, when I am trying to be the best partner I can be is choosing to be selfish. Because they are choosing NOT to address whatever it is that is preventing them from acting married.

I am not really concerned at this point with whether the truth motivates a selfish person, as I am not all that motivated to try to appease a selfish person into being unselfish.

Oh and in case someone's passive aggressive lack of reading comprehension kicks in, I am not advocating sex at all costs or rape - DUH


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> It's hilarious to me how many people ASSUME this is always the case. Some (read many) people spend YEARS trying to "address concerns" and be the perfect partner, only to be met with continued coldness in the3 bedroom.
> 
> So yeah...withholding sex absolutely IS selfish when your partner is twisting themselves into a pretzel trying to give you what you need.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for writing this. I don't know if anyone has said it better. 

I believe that THIS is truth, I believe that THIS boils it down to the basics with no BS attached...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> It's hilarious to me how many people ASSUME this is always the case. Some (read many) people spend YEARS trying to "address concerns" and be the perfect partner, only to be met with continued coldness in the3 bedroom.
> 
> So yeah...withholding sex absolutely IS selfish when your partner is twisting themselves into a pretzel trying to give you what you need.
> 
> ...


Sometimes couples are just sexually incompatible and also incompatible in other ways in their marriages.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Sometimes couples are just sexually incompatible and also incompatible in other ways in their marriages.


Very true and that seems hard for many to admit. 

Some people make themselves un F'able by their attitude and/or actions. Notice that seems to never be presented as a possibility. There are many variables for why couples aren't having a satisfactory sex life. Hopefully, TAM has provided a multitude of possibilities that someone can choose from as they see one that seems to fit their scenario.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Very true and that seems hard for many to admit.
> 
> Some people make themselves un F'able by their attitude and/or actions. Notice that seems to never be presented as a possibility. There are many variables for why couples aren't having a satisfactory sex life. Hopefully, TAM has provided a multitude of possibilities that someone can choose from as they see one that seems to fit their scenario.


Oh it's highly possible someone's attitude can kill their partner's lidido. That is why so many people read books, go to forums, try to improve. It's why I bought His Needs, Her Needs, the Making of a Marriage, the Five Love Languages, the Love Dare, and some James Dobson book I can't remember. It's why I made a personal pact to focus only on myself for a block of 6 months and ask for nothing, committing myself to meeting every one of my ex husband's needs without asking anything in return to develop the habit of making sure I always put him first. It is why i asked for counseling, got fitter, changed things about my natural personality (read practically became a hermit because he was an introvert), and distanced myself from my parents (because he felt like they didn't like him as much as he wanted them to). It's why people like Holdingontoit have been on forums for upwards of 15 years. Never seems to be presented as a possibility is either intentional blindness or poor reading comprehension.

And so....if after all the mean old sex-desiring partner's flaws and imperfections have been dealt with, the LD partner still refuses sex? They must just be incompatible. Translation: they are just different from you so suck it up. Because the HD partner should always - ALWAYS - be the ones to change.

Or, the HD partner can divorce, even though we all secretly know that makes them some sort of shallow, sex-crazed bad guy.

But selfishness as a feature of withholding sex? No...couldn't;t POSSIBLY be the case.

Again, a man with plenty of bread in his cupboard probably shouldn't tell the starving man how to eat.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Some people make themselves un F'able by their attitude and/or actions.


Responding to unsatisfactory sex by becoming an angry pressuring ass is not very conducive to getting laid. Unfortunately I know this from experience. We both had to deal with our own stuff before things got back on track.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

CharlieParker said:


> *Responding to unsatisfactory sex by becoming an angry pressuring ass is not very conducive to getting laid.* Unfortunately I know this from experience. We both had to deal with our own stuff before things got back on track.


Very true. Just as responding to dirty dishes or a careless remark by withholding sex as punishment is not very conducive to a more helpful or thoughtful partner.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Oh it's highly possible someone's attitude can kill their partner's lidido. That is why so many people read books, go to forums, try to improve. It's why I bought His Needs, Her Needs, the Making of a Marriage, the Five Love Languages, the Love Dare, and some James Dobson book I can't remember. It's why I made a personal pact to focus only on myself for a block of 6 months and ask for nothing, committing myself to meeting every one of my ex husband's needs without asking anything in return to develop the habit of making sure I always put him first. It is why i asked for counseling, got fitter, changed things about my natural personality (read practically became a hermit because he was an introvert), and distanced myself from my parents (because he felt like they didn't like him as much as he wanted them to). It's why people like Holdingontoit have been on forums for upwards of 15 years. Never seems to be presented as a possibility is either intentional blindness or poor reading comprehension.
> 
> And so....if after all the mean old sex-desiring partner's flaws and imperfections have been dealt with, the LD partner still refuses sex? They must just be incompatible. Translation: they are just different from you so suck it up. Because the HD partner should always - ALWAYS - be the ones to change.
> 
> ...


A starving man doesn't have much credibility when it comes to telling another starving man how to eat. 

You may have made all of those changes but only your ex gets to decide if they have made you someone he would like to have sex with. They didn't. You obviously married someone that you were incompatible with since he really never wanted to have sex with you after marriage. The only change you needed to make was to face your cowardice and file for divorce which you admittedly eventually did. Now look at you, happily married and plenty of sex. Your ex should have faced his cowardice and divorced a woman who he didn't want to have sex with. If both parties want it to work, it can. If one party doesn't want it to work, no advice from TAM will make it work. Those people should just divorce. Most of the advice here is given with the presumption that both parties want it to work. Still, some people will lie to themselves when the other party clearly doesn't want it to work. You can't help those folks.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> A starving man doesn't have much credibility when it comes to telling another starving man how to eat.
> 
> You may have made all of those changes but only your ex gets to decide if they have made you someone he would like to have sex with. They didn't. You obviously married someone that you were incompatible with since he really never wanted to have sex with you after marriage. The only change you needed to make was to face your cowardice and file for divorce which you admittedly eventually did. Now look at you, happily married and plenty of sex. Your ex should have faced his cowardice and divorced a woman who he didn't want to have sex with. If both parties want it to work, it can. If one party doesn't want it to work, no advice from TAM will make it work. Those people should just divorce. Most of the advice here is given with the presumption that both parties want it to work. Still, some people will lie to themselves when the other party clearly doesn't want it to work. You can't help those folks.


I am impressed at the nice bow with which those digs were wrapped.

So....in light of all my efforts during the marriage, and in light of the fact that my ex told me SEVERAL times that he was happy and had what he needed.....

Is it POSSIBLE that maybe.....just maybe....he WAS selfish when he knew what I needed and refused?

Don't worry, if you concede that maybe he was selfish, I won't make you sign a form or anything.....


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I am impressed at the nice bow with which those digs were wrapped.
> 
> So....in light of all my efforts during the marriage, and in light of the fact that my ex told me SEVERAL times that he was happy and had what he needed.....
> 
> ...


Maybe sex with you was something that would make him very unhappy to do. Maybe it was horrible sex. Maybe he is gay. Maybe he is asexual. I wouldn't tell anyone to have sex with anyone they didn't want to have sex with. He was selfish for not divorcing you when it was obvious that you guys were incompatible. I would never say he was selfish for not having sex with you if he didn't want to. That would be like some Reddit incel talk.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Wow, you re really committed to not giving an inch, arent you?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> All this great, and it's important, talk about best way a F can reject her partner (whether married, in an ltr, str, or even if recently met) reminds me of the very real "power" or call it what you will, a F has when in certain social roles.
> 
> And the role / varying roles do affect a woman's very strong impact on her partner when she refuses sex.
> 
> ...


Interesting viewpoint. I don't know how - if you flip that scenario with a woman pursuing a man - how it would be any different. I've known many women who were interested in a man who wasn't interested in her. 

I guess I'm saying those scenarios play out for women who are attracted to a man - who isn't attracted to her.

Do you have any examples of how that might feel to a man - I mean, when he's not interested in a woman who is trying to get to know him and is attracted to him?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Do you have any examples of how that might feel to a man - I mean, when he's not interested in a woman who is trying to get to know him and is attracted to him?


I get the idea that a lot of men on the internet hold to the belief that no man would turn down a woman who was truly interested...I mean, unless she's a fatty. So that means it is always easier for women.

I disagree, but that is what I read. We have the pick of the litter, and men have to work hard.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There are many men who have very little interest in sex - it just isn't discussed much in popular media. 

I would expect rejection on average feels the same for men and women, but it may vary a lot with the individual person. 

On average I think more men than women are rejected, but it may not be by a large ratio and doesn't matter to the individual anyway. 






personofinterest said:


> I get the idea that a lot of men on the internet hold to the belief that no man would turn down a woman who was truly interested...I mean, unless she's a fatty. So that means it is always easier for women.
> 
> I disagree, but that is what I read. We have the pick of the litter, and men have to work hard.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Maybe he is gay.



My money is on that one. Very difficult to imagine marrying a real-life woman (as opposed to, say, a pillow that looks like a woman, like they do in Japan...) and not have any sex with it....For a regular guy, without issues etc (not that there’s anything wrong with being gay...).



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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> My money is on that one. Very difficult to imagine marrying a real-life woman (as opposed to, say, a pillow that looks like a woman, like they do in Japan...) and not have any sex with it....For a regular guy, without issues etc (not that there’s anything wrong with being gay...).
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I probably turned him gay because I was so bad in bed lol

Or maybe it was all the satanic sacrifices of cute puppies and kittens I did in the basement.

Cause I'm evil like that 

I wonder what the Dalai Llama would say about that....


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Interesting viewpoint. I don't know how - if you flip that scenario with a woman pursuing a man - how it would be any different. I've known many women who were interested in a man who wasn't interested in her.
> 
> I guess I'm saying those scenarios play out for women who are attracted to a man - who isn't attracted to her.
> 
> Do you have any examples of how that might feel to a man - I mean, when he's not interested in a woman who is trying to get to know him and is attracted to him?


Good point! And in a marriage or LTR the dynamic is much more complex than a single person at a bar wanting to get laid.

For example take a couple that has been married 20 years and the man just wants to get laid. His wife will accommodate him anytime he needs it but the husband perceives her efforts as unenthusiastic duty sex, so he refuses it. This husband then goes on to claim he feels rejected because his wife demonstrates no desire and never initiates. 

That dynamic plays out in so many marriages (same can be true when gender roles are reversed). Who is the one "in control" in that scenario? Who was rejected? Who exercised power over who? 

In my opinion if a wife offers duty sex and a husband then refuses it, then the wife was the one that was just rejected. It would have been the husband's job to set the mood if there was a possibility for things to be mutually enjoyable, and he opted out of that responsibility.

And now we are right back were we were a long time ago when @happiness27 tried to say, "hey most women can't be a toggle switch and it takes time!" 

Who is in control over how long it takes someone to become sexually receptive? The seducer or the one being seduced.

Imagine being stuck in a survival situation and claiming two sticks of wood have all the control over if there is going to be a fire started or not. If I pick up the two sticks and clank them together haphazardly and no fire started, then that is because the sticks how all the power and decided that there will be no fire. The result is we may freeze to death in this scenario and it is all the fault of the sticks for not lighting themselves on fire when needed. Meanwhile Rico Suave an expert survivalist can get two soggy sticks to catch fire underwater during a biblical flood, but that is because he is really good at manipulating sticks to get more fire which is a horrible example.



Bad,
Badsanta

PS: These questions are directed at Ragnar Ragnasson. I do not know how to mention someone that has a space in their name. Your comments @happiness27 were great!


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Meanwhile Rico Suave an expert survivalist can get two soggy sticks to catch fire underwater during a biblical flood, but that is because he is really good at manipulating sticks to get more fire which is a horrible example.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who is this Rico Suave and how can we all attend his seminar? :grin2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I probably turned him gay because I was so bad in bed lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don’t think that’s how it works 
The more evil you are, the better you would be in bed, haven’t you heard? It’s science! (As approved by Jesus). 



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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I am impressed at the nice bow with which those digs were wrapped.
> 
> So....in light of all my efforts during the marriage, and in light of the fact that my ex told me SEVERAL times that he was happy and had what he needed.....
> 
> ...


Honestly, you know this. In your case from what I know, I have to think that he was asexual or SUPER LD, what other explanation is there?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Interesting viewpoint. I don't know how - if you flip that scenario with a woman pursuing a man - how it would be any different. I've known many women who were interested in a man who wasn't interested in her.
> 
> I guess I'm saying those scenarios play out for women who are attracted to a man - who isn't attracted to her.
> 
> Do you have any examples of how that might feel to a man - I mean, when he's not interested in a woman who is trying to get to know him and is attracted to him?


Re my above post;

Absolutely the situations can be reversed. Although it's much more common as in my examples the woman can be pursuing the man. 

I've had this reverse, as I'm sure many have also, and it's good for the ego but a woman can quickly move on unless they believe it's a personal challenge. God love women who take the lead sometimes. 

I'm just showing the impact of sex and appreciation from a woman on a man as a rule.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Who is this Rico Suave and how can we all attend his seminar? :grin2:


He is a homeless guy that drifts around from city to city driving a lambo and wearing gucci. He is really really bad about posting his schedule online so people know where to find him. Your not the only person asking! 



Badsanta


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Re my above post;
> 
> Absolutely the situations can be reversed. Although it's much more common as in my examples the woman can be pursuing the man.
> 
> ...


As a woman, if some guy was just interested in having sex with me, like a one-night-stand kind of thing, some of what would be going on with me would be that the man is physically bigger - and therefore I would have to trust him not to cause me harm OR I would have to assess whether or not I could safely extract myself if something went (safety-wise) awry. That's at least one aspect of what would go on in the mind of a woman who was assessing whether or not to involve herself sexually with a guy on a limited basis. So, rejection isn't so much an ego bash as it is a protective thing. YOU know you're a nice guy but SHE doesn't - not until she gets to a point where she thinks she can trust you enough. So many stories about how this kind of thing goes bad that women often are on the alert.

Also, interestingly, I've read a lot from men about how they feel about one-night-stands and the majority response is that he doesn't care about how the woman is going to feel, he's mainly interested in himself. That can be off-putting to a woman. 

Caution is so ingrained in women from the time they are young. 

Another possible reason for women being conflicted about casual sex is the labels that women have been subjected to for-ever. A woman is a ****, *****, "easy" - really derogatory, demeaning terms that instill a sense of being selective about who she partners up with. With that being the case, a woman becomes vulnerable to guys who talk about her where she will get a negative reputation. For guys, having casual sex is expected and he's a stud, a playboy and is heralded for his exploits.

When these things are considered, a woman being more selective starts to make sense. 

Frankly, in today's world, I can't believe anyone is out there being anything less than selective. STIs are rampant and are not something easily avoided by condoms. In the bold light of day and the hot lights of a doctor's office, the selection of sex partners takes on a different meaning.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Also, interestingly, I've read a lot from men about how they feel about one-night-stands and the majority response is that he doesn't care about how the woman is going to feel, he's mainly interested in himself.


Add to this that many men want to have as much casual sex with as many different women as possible, but when they decide to settle down, none of the women who were good enough for their one night stand are good enough to be considered "relationship material."


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> As a woman, if some guy was just interested in having sex with me, like a one-night-stand kind of thing, some of what would be going on with me would be that the man is physically bigger - and therefore I would have to trust him not to cause me harm OR I would have to assess whether or not I could safely extract myself if something went (safety-wise) awry. That's at least one aspect of what would go on in the mind of a woman who was assessing whether or not to involve herself sexually with a guy on a limited basis. So, rejection isn't so much an ego bash as it is a protective thing. YOU know you're a nice guy but SHE doesn't - not until she gets to a point where she thinks she can trust you enough. So many stories about how this kind of thing goes bad that women often are on the alert.
> 
> Also, interestingly, I've read a lot from men about how they feel about one-night-stands and the majority response is that he doesn't care about how the woman is going to feel, he's mainly interested in himself. That can be off-putting to a woman.
> 
> ...


Those are some very good points to ponder.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Another possible reason for women being conflicted about casual sex is the labels that women have been subjected to for-ever. A woman is a ****, *****, "easy" - really derogatory, demeaning terms that instill a sense of being selective about who she partners up with. With that being the case, a woman becomes vulnerable to guys who talk about her where she will get a negative reputation. For guys, having casual sex is expected and he's a stud, a playboy and is heralded for his exploits.
> 
> When these things are considered, a woman being more selective starts to make sense.
> 
> Frankly, in today's world, I can't believe anyone is out there being anything less than selective.


This is one of the most realistic, sensible things I have ever read. And I agree. I have always believed that indiscriminate sex is *NOT* empowering to women.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Good point! And in a marriage or LTR the dynamic is much more complex than a single person at a bar wanting to get laid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don’t understand ‘duty sex’. Sex is sex, ffs! You (the guy) can make it non duty yourself. I think men have the wrong idea; a woman isn’t there to give you a nice lap dance & service you. She is there to be ****ed. Ok, sometimes it’s nice to be serviced enthusiastically (though that’s not my favourite thing). But I wouldn’t get used to it.
It reminds me a bit of starving African children complaining not getting good service when people bring food to their village. Maybe they are not that hungry if that’s what they complain about!
When I was 14-15 and covered in acne (ok, it wasn’t actually that bad) and suffered from chronic hardons, I would have killed for some ‘duty sex’ (not literally).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> As a woman, if some guy was just interested in having sex with me, like a one-night-stand kind of thing, some of what would be going on with me would be that the man is physically bigger - and therefore I would have to trust him not to cause me harm OR I would have to assess whether or not I could safely extract myself if something went (safety-wise) awry. That's at least one aspect of what would go on in the mind of a woman who was assessing whether or not to involve herself sexually with a guy on a limited basis. So, rejection isn't so much an ego bash as it is a protective thing. YOU know you're a nice guy but SHE doesn't - not until she gets to a point where she thinks she can trust you enough. So many stories about how this kind of thing goes bad that women often are on the alert.


Is that the only thing? I really can’t get my head around what women actually get out of casual sex. I know it’s tempting for a guy to think ‘because sex with ME is so ****ing amazing’ but come on.





happiness27 said:


> Also, interestingly, I've read a lot from men about how they feel about one-night-stands and the majority response is that he doesn't care about how the woman is going to feel, he's mainly interested in himself. That can be off-putting to a woman.



In a one night stand situation, maybe. However for some reason it works wonders in a marriage (to tell the wife what a filthy little ***** she is while being selfish). I don’t understand why.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

So... you're saying because an unattractive teenager would be glad to have any sex at all, that married men should gladly accept that their wife will let him **** her, even though she's not attracted to him and isn't interested in having sex with him except to preserve a marriage/the perks that go with it?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I will be honest. I hate washing dishes. I mean i HATE it. And it's pretty much expected that I do it. Not because my hubby is some neanderthal ass, but because he works at a TIRING job all day long more hours than I do, he takes care of all the maintenance and everything outside the house, the cars. etc. I do the house. Yeah, 1950's, blah blah blah. I like our arrangement. I don't have to have hairy legs and stay out of the kitchen to feel powerful lol.

Annnnyway, back to dishes. I do not like doing them. I also don't like racing all that much, objectively speaking.

But....I discovered something. Actually I discovered it when I was a kid. When something is a part of life, you get to decide what your attitude will be. I could decide to view washing dishes by hand and schlepping to a dusty or sometimes muddy drag race track something to be endured. I could be put upon and slam the dishes into the drainer and just swipe a cursory wipe of the sponge over the forks to get it over with. I could sigh as I dodge a mud hole at the dirt track, obsess over the fact that the bleachers cause an old booty injury to hurt, focus on how the sound of the loud cars makes my tinnitus worse the day after.

OR, I can stand back and enjoy the good feeling that comes with a kitchen so clean and shiny you could eat off any surface. I could watch my husband talk to the drivers about their cars, listen to him excitedly explain his expertise concerning motors, and cheer with him when the guy he's know for 20 years wins. I can hold his hand and share the bad nachos and chat with the wife of his friend while he and his buddy become kids again over the smell of nitrous.

My attitude to make these things a "duty" is up to me.

And before the predictable "but sex is more intimate than dishes!!!!" rant comes up, there are reasons that certain home things are triggering for me that I will not be sharing here.

My love for my husband just happens to trump that.

If you are havingt duty, starfish sex, waiting for it to be over...unless you were horribly horribly traumatized as a youth and had no opportunity to work through it in counseling.....you are choosing to hate it, at least to an extent. That is assuming you have a husband who does his best, albeit imperfectly, to love you.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Livvie said:


> even though she's not attracted to him and isn't interested in having sex with him



But you have just slipped in that bit which wasn’t part of the original premise.

If she’s not attracted to him, why did she get together/married to him? Or you mean that her attraction ‘fluctuates’? 

My point was that there’s a difference between not getting any sex from wife at all or complaining about ‘quality’ of sex she is providing: in the latter, my opinion is that the guy just doesn’t want to **** her badly enough and projecting his lack of desire onto the woman. (Not always, but sometimes.) I think this angle is worth considering. Even if it’s an uncomfortable angle.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I will be honest. I hate washing dishes. I mean i HATE it.



Has your husband considered giving you a dishwasher as a Valentine’s gift ?
You get clean dishes and it’s also great to have sex on (good vibrations). Ours has a blue, antibacterial light inside (it’s German). I heard it’s good for vaginosis. (Not that my wife gets it but those Germans thought of everything).



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> But....I discovered something. Actually I discovered it when I was a kid. When something is a part of life, you get to decide what your attitude will be. I could decide to view washing dishes by hand and schlepping to a dusty or sometimes muddy drag race track something to be endured. I could be put upon and slam the dishes into the drainer and just swipe a cursory wipe of the sponge over the forks to get it over with.



Just a helpful tip: you could also withhold sex (like some of the other feminists) until your husband starts doing all the dishes, cleaning the kitchen, washing the floors and making you English tea afterwards 
Make it a month and he’ll start washing dishes for the whole street. 



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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Just a helpful tip: you could also withhold sex (like some of the other feminists) until your husband starts doing all the dishes, cleaning the kitchen, washing the floors and making you English tea afterwards
> Make it a month and he’ll start washing dishes for the whole street.
> 
> 
> ...


FYI: Feminists don't withhold sex, they just like to be on top. :grin2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> FYI: Feminists don't withhold sex, they just like to be on top. :grin2:



On top of what? 


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> FYI: Feminists don't withhold sex, they just like to be on top. :grin2:


But know how to/are able to cum from missionary. (One of my wife’s pet peeves from before me, not asking.)


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > But....I discovered something. Actually I discovered it when I was a kid. When something is a part of life, you get to decide what your attitude will be. I could decide to view washing dishes by hand and schlepping to a dusty or sometimes muddy drag race track something to be endured. I could be put upon and slam the dishes into the drainer and just swipe a cursory wipe of the sponge over the forks to get it over with.
> ...


 With holding sex would be punishing myself! Also I'm not a frigid b****.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Livvie said:


> So... you're saying because an unattractive teenager would be glad to have any sex at all



Oy! Who said I was unattractive?! 
It’s just that my voice hadn’t broken yet and wimmins didn’t think I was able to produce semen yet...so I was still mainly pedophile-material during that time. which was frustrating.

I remember the first ejaculation I had was one of the most empowering things, like, ever. It’s as if i acquired a super power from the X-men school and was ready to spray the whole world with. I thought that the time had come when womenz would finally notice me and fall under a spell of my newly acquired masculinity. Nope  
Just more wasted tissues. I flew too close to the sun and burnt my nuts  



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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> Good point! And in a marriage or LTR the dynamic is much more complex than a single person at a bar wanting to get laid.
> 
> For example take a couple that has been married 20 years and the man just wants to get laid. His wife will accommodate him anytime he needs it but the husband perceives her efforts as unenthusiastic duty sex, so he refuses it. This husband then goes on to claim he feels rejected because his wife demonstrates no desire and never initiates.
> 
> ...



My only comment is, yes! 

See how complications can arise, and the twists and turns of genders, roles, circumstances make the topic deeper than any casual approach. 

Many folks don't spend much time thinking about this topic at all phases in their lives but will at some point. 

Many folks catch on quicker and realize the importance or at least the existence of this topic and spend some time on it which is a great thing as one moves into mature relationships. 

Imo the more enlightened one is on this, and the better at communicating with their SO, the better their relationship. 

Now on Rico Suave and the two sticks; Rico always has at least basic water proof matches seen in his clothes linings for contingencies. 

Sometimes vibrating water proof matches 😁😁😁.

With a flask of Scottish whiskey.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> FYI: Feminists don't withhold sex, they just like to be on top. :grin2:


See, that's a trick.

We like them to be on top! 😍😍


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

badsanta said:


> For example take a couple that has been married 20 years and the man just wants to get laid. His wife will accommodate him anytime he needs it but the husband perceives her efforts as unenthusiastic duty sex, so he refuses it. This husband then goes on to claim he feels rejected because his wife demonstrates no desire and never initiates.
> 
> That dynamic plays out in so many marriages (same can be true when gender roles are reversed). Who is the one "in control" in that scenario? Who was rejected? Who exercised power over who?


I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. The whole point of turning down starfish sex is to regain some measure of control. And to exercise power over your spouse by rejecting them. That isn't something that we who engage in this behavior were oblivious to. It is the whole point of turning down starfish sex. it isn't about sex. It is about power and control. 

This is a big reason why so many victims or rape and abuse will subsequently find themselves being gatekeepers / rejecters. After the trauma, sex becomes all about power and control.



> In my opinion if a wife offers duty sex and a husband then refuses it, then the wife was the one that was just rejected. It would have been the husband's job to set the mood if there was a possibility for things to be mutually enjoyable, and he opted out of that responsibility.


Yes, exactly. After years of rejection from my wife, I love the feeling of rejecting her.

Yes, it is my job to set the mood and make sex good for her. After yes, after years of trying, I have opted out of that responsibility. I don't feel good about that. But it feels better than constantly trying and getting rejected. Which is why divorce would be a better option.

We should work that into our TAM advice. How does a HD know when it is time to throw in the towel and get divorced? When they can't continue new and exciting ways to try and set the mood. If you have given up on taking responsibility for setting the mood, it is time. Not time to give up on sex. Time to exit the marriage.

Thanks for helping me realize this.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> If you are having duty, starfish sex, waiting for it to be over...unless you were horribly horribly traumatized as a youth and had no opportunity to work through it in counseling......



This is why I’m a huge fan of premarital counseling. My wife knew she had a traumatic past but decided to keep it to herself. And then decide to become a trauma therapist (go figure). In our case, it now it manifests itself in how the kids are raised, how she treats me as a husband and how sex has become crude and something we do but can’t talk about. WRT to sex, I ramped down initiating for the most part. For her it’s 100% hormonal driven. Twice a month, like clockwork, IAW her cycle she gets horny and she unceremoniously tells we’re gonna have sex. She says she enjoys sex and comes 98% of the time but it feels like a booty call more than anything else. When I initiate she’s said no twice but when she didn’t you could see in there eyes it was not something she wanted but didn’t want me to be able to say that she turns me down.

So now sex means two different thing to each of us now. We can’t even talk about what is in essence the one thing that connects up outside the kids. It really is demoralizing. Sad thing is it doesn’t bother her one bit. 

We’re in MC is I hope we can discuss this more.



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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> > In my opinion if a wife offers duty sex and a husband then refuses it, then the wife was the one that was just rejected. It would have been the husband's job to set the mood if there was a possibility for things to be mutually enjoyable, and he opted out of that responsibility.
> 
> 
> Yes, exactly. After years of rejection from my wife, I love the feeling of rejecting her.
> ...


For the purpose of this thread, if you admit to rejecting your wife for intimacy... do you think she would have a preferred way for you to do that if she had a say so in the matter? Do you think you could ask her about that? If you are going to exit, no harm can come by trying to be open about these things first.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I don’t understand ‘duty sex’. Sex is sex, ffs! You (the guy) can make it non duty yourself. I think men have the wrong idea; a woman isn’t there to give you a nice lap dance & service you. She is there to be ****ed. Ok, sometimes it’s nice to be serviced enthusiastically (though that’s not my favourite thing). But I wouldn’t get used to it.
> 
> It reminds me a bit of starving African children complaining not getting good service when people bring food to their village. Maybe they are not that hungry if that’s what they complain about!
> When I was 14-15 and covered in acne (ok, it wasn’t actually that bad) and suffered from chronic hardons, I would have killed for some ‘duty sex’ (not literally).


Wow, you really don't understand what good sex is do you? (Joking) You are both there the SERVICE each other, and if one or the other is not, that is duty sex. May be ok for you, but not for a lot of people. 

I am ENTHUSIASTIVALLY there to serve her, and is she is not enthusiastic about being there and servicing me, we have a problem, and it will not happen. 

We can talk about what the issue is, but it cannot happen more than a few times...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> My attitude to make these things a "duty" is up to me.
> 
> And before the predictable "but sex is more intimate than dishes!!!!" rant comes up, there are reasons that certain home things are triggering for me that I will not be sharing here.
> 
> ...


A husband also has to change his attitude about duty sex. There will often be one of two scenarios:

A) One person simply can't get in the mood and just wants to enjoy making the other happy. In this scenario the one with desire can enjoy being selfish. As a matter of fact my wife will often tell me just that, and I know now to stop focusing my energy on trying to get her in the mood and just allow her to instead focus solely on me. I most often get to be a enthusiastic starfish! 

B) There is an opportunity for both to get in the mood. This requires the one with desire to be patient until the moment can be shared mutually. In my experience this does not require a box of magical devices, but simply a willingness to enjoy/listen a conversation about current issues and struggles in day to day life. Perhaps debate something and come to a better understanding about a conflict... then the mood will be set as this strengthens a strong emotional connection that creates closeness and receptiveness. It is like hacking through a dense emotional rain forest full of thorns and stinging insects with a machete made of patience until a peaceful clearing is found with yummy tropical fruits.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

badsanta said:


> A husband also has to change his attitude about duty sex. There will often be one of two scenarios:
> 
> A) One person simply can't get in the mood and just wants to enjoy making the other happy. In this scenario the one with desire can enjoy being selfish. As a matter of fact my wife will often tell me just that, and I know now to stop focusing my energy on trying to get her in the mood and just allow her to instead focus solely on me. I most often get to be a enthusiastic starfish!
> 
> B) There is an opportunity for both to get in the mood. This requires the one with desire to be patient until the moment can be shared mutually. In my experience this does not require a box of magical devices, but simply a willingness to enjoy/listen a conversation about current issues and struggles in day to day life. Perhaps debate something and come to a better understanding about a conflict... then the mood will be set as this strengthens a strong emotional connection that creates closeness and receptiveness. It is like hacking through a dense emotional rain forest full of thorns and stinging insects with a machete made of patience until a peaceful clearing is found with a waterfall and yummy tropical fruits.


See, if I am tired, but I love my husband so I give him a BJ or psych myself up and make him really happy, I do not consider that duty sex. I consider that being loving.

If I sigh and roll my eyes and passive-aggressively lie there REFUSING to do anything, hoping he'll just "get on with it," THAT is duty sex. It's also basically a little manipulative low key temper tantrum.

It's unrealistic to expect one's partner to be rip-roaring tear my clothes off every single time. One might often be more excited about it than the other, or at least it may start that way.

If you refuse to have sex until your partner matches your desire exactly, you kinda have no one to blame but yourself if you never have sex.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Wow, you really don't understand what good sex is do you? (Joking) You are both there the SERVICE each other, and if one or the other is not, that is duty sex. May be ok for you, but not for a lot of people.
> 
> *I am ENTHUSIASTIVALLY there to serve her, and is she is not enthusiastic about being there and servicing me, we have a problem,* and it will not happen.
> 
> We can talk about what the issue is, but it cannot happen more than a few times...


I feel the same way unless it's a bj/hj...then I enjoy being "served"


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

badsanta said:


> For the purpose of this thread, if you admit to rejecting your wife for intimacy... do you think she would have a preferred way for you to do that if she had a say so in the matter? Do you think you could ask her about that? If you are going to exit, no harm can come by trying to be open about these things first.


I think you misinterpreted my post. When I said I now realized that a HD should divorce, I wasn't referring to myself. I am staying no matter what. What I meant is that I now realize I can give better advice to other HDs because I now have a standard they can apply to determine when it is time to stop trying to make the sex better and start moving toward divorce.

As for your questions, do I think my wife prefers for me to reject her? No. Am I inclined to give her any say in that matter? No. Do I think that is fair? Yes, absolutely. She spent over 20 years continually rejecting me. I got no say in the matter. We are only 3 years into my rejecting her. We are a couple of decades short of the "fairness pendulum" swinging in her direction.

Could I ask her about that? Yes. What would be the point? We spent 8 years in marriage counselling and sex therapy. I was open and honest the whole time. She took not one single action to address my concerns. And yes, I took many actions to address hers. Just a few weeks ago we talked about his. Remember? I said we shouldn't have sex because she doesn't want to and doesn't enjoy it? And she said she wouldn't say she doesn't want to (but she also couldn't bring herself to say she did want to) but she did feel obliged to admit it does nothing for her and she does not enjoy it.

It all goes back to the central theme of my prior post to you. For us, sex is not about love. It is not about pleasant sensations. It is all about power and control. She had the power for literally a couple of decades. I have had the power for a couple of years. I am determined not to let her wrest the power and control out of my grasp. And the way I keep control is by refusing to have sex with her.

I know you want to help, but H2 and I are completely incompatible sexually. It is unavoidable that one or the other of us is going to have to make a major sacrifice. Either she has to submit to unwanted sex or I have to do without sex. I choose to be the one to make the sacrifice. I handle deprivation much better than she does. And I am much better at being the martyr than she ever was. I can be outwardly pleasant and warm toward her despite the deprivation. She was always a raging terror when forced to have sex with me. I am actually making our relationship work better. The only way it could be better than it is now is if we divorced. And I refuse to do that.

She desperately wanted to be married to me. I am giving her exactly what she asked for. How can she possibly complain? >


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> See, if I am tired, but I love my husband so I give him a BJ or psych myself up and make him really happy, I do not consider that duty sex. I consider that being loving.
> 
> If I sigh and roll my eyes and passive-aggressively lie there REFUSING to do anything, hoping he'll just "get on with it," THAT is duty sex. It's also basically a little manipulative low key temper tantrum.
> 
> ...


I am really starting to love you, I a platonic way of course...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

badsanta said:


> A husband also has to change his attitude about duty sex. There will often be one of two scenarios:


Perfectly fine advice. I would suggest HDs apply this advice, with one caveat. It assumes that there are some times when the LD is enthusiastic. If the LD is never enthusiastic and every time is duty sex, then either find a way to make it better for the LD (which might be by building a closer emotional bond and not by learning to be more proficient at sex) or divorce. The day the HD stops trying to help the LD be more enthusiastic is the day the HD should hire a lawyer and file for divorce. The HD should be enthusiastic about making an effort to "set the stage" throughout their marriage. The marriage ought to end just as soon as the HD prefers to let go of that responsibility.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> See, if I am tired, but I love my husband so I give him a BJ or psych myself up and make him really happy, I do not consider that duty sex. I consider that being loving.
> 
> If I sigh and roll my eyes and passive-aggressively lie there REFUSING to do anything, hoping he'll just "get on with it," THAT is duty sex. It's also basically a little manipulative low key temper tantrum.
> 
> ...


Exactly.

I keep seeing people insisting that they never have sex unless they are both really into it. I always respond with "what if you are only really into it on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays and your partner is only really into it on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays?".

And, if one partner has responsive desire, then there's basically no chance of having sex at all.

And "you should only do things you really want to do". So, if I don't like going to see my in-laws, I should just never go? And my wife should be okay with that? I don't mind my in-laws and it's really not that bad (and sometimes is actually pretty fun), but I'd never go visit them on my own.

So, since my wife's happiness is important to me, I try to have a positive attitude and make the best of it.

If I go with a negative, whiny attitude while making it obvious I'd rather be elsewhere, then that's not me being forced to do something I don't want to do; it's me being a selfish, immature *******.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> If you refuse to have sex until your partner matches your desire exactly, you kinda have no one to blame but yourself if you never have sex.


*Very well said!*

Now hypothetical situation... Your spouse lets you know that he in the mood and you are psyched up to just make him happy even though you know there is just no way you can get aroused. It quickly becomes obvious to him you can't (or don't want to) get aroused and he then says he would rather wait until a better moment so that feelings can be shared.

If you had full control regarding what happens next (excluding all forms of sexual intimacy), what would be the best course of action? I personally don't know how you might answer this and think it would help many reading here...

In problematic marriages where a spouse wants to be wanted and struggles thinking there is just no desire/attraction from the other person... the tendency would likely to withdraw and self sooth (watch porn). This in my opinion really serves to hurt both involved. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I keep seeing people insisting that they never have sex unless they are both really into it. I always respond with "what if you are only really into it on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays and your partner is only really into it on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays?".
> 
> ...


I very well may be selfish and immature, and I am fine with it. 

However, a women that gets to be with me, and I am totally upfront about it, needs to understand several things...

1) If you are with me, then be with me. That means you are attracted to me, or you should not have been with me in the first place. It means that you have at least a "normal" sex drive or at least responsive because I will give you lots of reasons to have sex with me.

2) You need to be open about yourself and sex. You understand what you like of are willing to learn.

3) You enjoy having O's....

4) You adore me...

Any of those 4 things are not there, well, you don't make the cut. Sorry. 

I really don't think that any of this is too hard. You want me, regularly, or you don't. If you don't, OK, I will happily move one. 

Really, how hard is this...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

badsanta said:


> *Very well said!*
> 
> Now hypothetical situation... Your spouse lets you know that he in the mood and you are psyched up to just make him happy even though you know there is just no way you can get aroused. It quickly becomes obvious to him you can't (or don't want to) get aroused and he then says he would rather wait until a better moment so that feelings can be shared.
> 
> ...


It may be different for other women, but for me, my mind has at least as much to do with arousal as my physiology. And physiologically speaking, our bodies are programmed to behave a certain way, sans emotion. This is why it is not unusual for rape victims to become wet, aroused, or even have orgasms during assault.

So.....if my MIND and ATTITUDE are right, then I WILL become physically aroused. And I am in the throes of menopause, where dryness can be an issue.

In short, I do not believe 99% of women who are choosing to be loving to their husbands will engage in foreplay with him and NOT become aroused.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> It may be different for other women, but for me, my mind has at least as much to do with arousal as my physiology. And physiologically speaking, our bodies are programmed to behave a certain way, sans emotion. This is why it is not unusual for rape victims to become wet, aroused, or even have orgasms during assault.
> 
> So.....if my MIND and ATTITUDE are right, then I WILL become physically aroused. And I am in the throes of menopause, where dryness can be an issue.
> 
> In short, I do not believe 99% of women who are choosing to be loving to their husbands will engage in foreplay with him and NOT become aroused.


I think this matches up with what happens with my wife these days who is past menopause. It is ALL mental, also all lube all the time so that isn't a method of telling if she is turned on or not:wink2:. Anyway, there are times when she didn't seem to quite get there and others where she is totally in to it. By get there I don't mean orgasm just that mental space which translates to physical.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> Wow, you really don't understand what good sex is do you? (Joking) You are both there the SERVICE each other, and if one or the other is not, that is duty sex. May be ok for you, but not for a lot of people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I wasn’t talking about ‘servicing’ anyone, I was talking about ****ing her senselessly. I don’t pretend to know what goes on in her head in that moment: if I’m into it and caught up in the moment and the act, I won’t have time to notice whether she feels it’s duty or off duty sex.
I feel in long term marriages, sex doesn’t seem ‘just happen’ anymore (meaning the guy overpowers the woman, not in a rapey way, although...).
There’s all this talk about ‘servicing’ enthusiastically...If I want service I take the car to a garage. It’s like couples take ages to decide and agree whether they are going to have sex or not, what acts they are going to perform etc. When you start dating someone, you just ****. This doesn’t happen so much anymore once you have been married for a while. I think guys get lazy. And also women loose desire (for various reasons).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ok, maybe I was a bit facetious.
I just think we should keep things in perspective: for a new relationship or if you are teenagers and in love, ‘duty sex’ is just not part of the vocabulary. At all.

I think something changes in the dynamic for couples when ‘duty sex’ suddenly becomes an issue.

I wonder if it’s because the guy looses his ‘claim’ or dominance over his woman over time (sexually). I know it sounds archaic but I feel there are some basic primal forces at play. I just can’t pinpoint what they are.

When I walk up to my woman, I want to see her perk up and stick her ass up in the air instinctively, ready for reception of my enormous Schlongenschtück  (like a lion walking up to one of his females).

If she doesn’t do it, or is ‘on duty’ or rolls her eyes or whatever, then maybe she needs to join another herd. Because it’s emasculating.  




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I wasn’t talking about ‘servicing’ anyone, I was talking about ****ing her senselessly. I don’t pretend to know what goes on in her head in that moment: if I’m into it and caught up in the moment and the act, I won’t have time to notice whether she feels it’s duty or off duty sex.
> I feel in long term marriages, sex doesn’t seem ‘just happen’ anymore (meaning the guy overpowers the woman, not in a rapey way, although...).
> 
> There’s all this talk about ‘servicing’ enthusiastically...If I want service I take the car to a garage. It’s like couples take ages to decide and agree whether they are going to have sex or not, what acts they are going to perform etc. When you start dating someone, you just ****. This doesn’t happen so much anymore once you have been married for a while. I think guys get lazy. And also women loose desire (for various reasons).


I was joking, I think you saw that. Now I am serious about the other stuff. I may be different than some. But I am constantly reacting to my partner when I am having sex, that is just how I am. Is she at the beginning, middle, or end. Should I let her breath for a second before going for her next one, or should I extend this one. 

I mean I am not thinking like I am writing, it is just kind of a natural reaction. 

I guess that I understand that sex does not just happen for a lot of couples (?), I guess. That is how it happens from me. It is not like I am against planning or penciling in sex, I am not. It is just, why highlight the whole page. We are together, alone, I assume we are having sex...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> > I may be different than some. But I am constantly reacting to my partner when I am having sex, that is just how I am. Is she at the beginning, middle, or end. Should I let her breath for a second before going for her next one, or should I extend this one.
> ...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> It may be different for other women, but for me, my mind has at least as much to do with arousal as my physiology. And physiologically speaking, our bodies are programmed to behave a certain way, sans emotion. This is why it is not unusual for rape victims to become wet, aroused, or even have orgasms during assault.
> 
> So.....if my MIND and ATTITUDE are right, then I WILL become physically aroused. And I am in the throes of menopause, where dryness can be an issue.
> 
> In short, I do not believe 99% of women who are choosing to be loving to their husbands will engage in foreplay with him and NOT become aroused.


Thanks for sharing....

My wife sometimes just can't get herself in the mood even though she wants to. This could be somewhat related to a type of performance anxiety where historically I used to get frustrated and upset if she could not get in the mood (I now realize that was a bad thing).

So perhaps couples that have problems with one person's libido not responding in the way our bodies are programmed could very well be tied into some form of performance anxiety. 

For example in a certain state of mind I have experienced wanting to be aroused and enjoy intimacy, but no forms of stimulation would feel pleasurable or get me aroused. At the same time I would also be worried about failing my wife as she would be in the mood and I did not want to let her down as she had done to me so many times. In hindsight this was a very valuable experience to happen to me a few times as it let me experience that.

So physiologically speaking, even if our bodies are programmed to behave a certain way, certain emotions can override everything! Particularly our fears of failure and not wanting to let our spouses down. 

In my opinion embracing failure and accepting our own imperfections as well as our partners is a key to unlocking one's mind and opening it to being happy together as a couple. This is not the same as lowering expectations, but more about just being honest with yourself so your partner can better know how to love you. 

I think I am rambling now...

Thanks, 
Badsanta


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> It may be different for other women, but for me, my mind has at least as much to do with arousal as my physiology. And physiologically speaking, our bodies are programmed to behave a certain way, sans emotion. This is why it is not unusual for rape victims to become wet, aroused, or even have orgasms during assault.
> 
> So.....*if my MIND and ATTITUDE are right, then I WILL become physically aroused.* And I am in the throes of menopause, where dryness can be an issue.
> 
> In short, I do not believe 99% of women who are choosing to be loving to their husbands will engage in foreplay with him and NOT become aroused.


That is exactly how my wife is. What separates women like you and my wife from some others is that you are willing to try to get turned on but you also know that there are no negative repercussions if it doesn't happen. I believe more women would be like you if more husbands were like yours. IMO


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> That is exactly how my wife is. What separates women like you and my wife from some others is that you are willing to try to get turned on but you also know that there are no negative repercussions if it doesn't happen. I believe more women would be like you if more husbands were like yours. IMO


This is a very good point. Of course, I think one of the reasons my husband is the way he is is because I don't string him along and withhold from him for weeks or months on end. It's one of those balance things. Occasionally being tired but usually being receptive is something I think all reasonable people would be fine with. Usually avoiding/saying no and rarely responding would hurt most normal people.

Just like a knife hurts whether someone stabbed you outright or just "dropped" the knife where they knew your sore foot was standing. The pain is still pain.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> I was joking, I think you saw that. Now I am serious about the other stuff. I may be different than some. But I am constantly reacting to my partner when I am having sex, that is just how I am. Is she at the beginning, middle, or end. Should I let her breath for a second before going for her next one, or should I extend this one.
> 
> I mean I am not thinking like I am writing, it is just kind of a natural reaction.
> 
> I guess that I understand that sex does not just happen for a lot of couples (?), I guess. That is how it happens from me. It is not like I am against planning or penciling in sex, I am not. It is just, why highlight the whole page. We are together, alone, I assume we are having sex...


And there it is. 

Dear W and I are the same. And because dear W and I are in tune, I always know where she is "is" and I decide when to let her O, or stretch it out, and whether a breather or intermission between.

Now that we're empty nesters, it's naked time whenever. 

We don't have gaps as a rule more than a day or two dependent on schedules. 

And we modify schedules to suit "our" time as a priority when things aren't critical. 

Yay team!


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## SeattleWill (Aug 8, 2018)

Implicit in marriage is the lifetime obligation to fulfill your spouse’s sexual desires. See 1 Corinthians 7. If you aren’t willing to provide for your spouse’s sexual desires, don’t get married.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

SeattleWill said:


> Implicit in marriage is the lifetime obligation to fulfill your spouse’s sexual desires. See 1 Corinthians 7. If you aren’t willing to provide for your spouse’s sexual desires, don’t get married.


It's okay to divorce if you marry and sex becomes a CONSTANT, UNRESOLVABLE problem. No one is obligated to give or receive sex against their will - nor is anyone obligated to live in deprivation of sex. 

I don't like the idea serving up Bible verses at a spouse who is unwilling to give or receive sex on a regular basis. Better to serve up divorce papers.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

SeattleWill said:


> Implicit in marriage is the lifetime obligation to fulfill your spouse’s sexual desires. See 1 Corinthians 7. If you aren’t willing to provide for your spouse’s sexual desires, don’t get married.


But what if your feelings change. Many people marry fairly young and change as they age. 

Its also unclear what what sorts of sexual desires and how frequently is reasonable. 

The bible was written when the world was a very different, and much simpler place.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

uhtred said:


> But what if your feelings change. Many people marry fairly young and change as they age.
> Its also unclear what what sorts of sexual desires and how frequently is reasonable.
> The bible was written when the world was a very different, and much simpler place.


I think @happiness27's statement still applies.

A prolonged unresolveable difference in desire and willingness to consent to sex justifies divorce whether it arises in the first year or the 5th year or the 25th year of marriage. Now, the extent to which the spouses are willing to invest time and effort and tears in trying to find a way to make the difference temporary or resolveable may well depend on whether they are in year 1 or 5 or 25 of marriage.

To me, the idea that these days couples may live 50 or 60 or more years after they got married argues in favor of ending 20 or 30 year marriages over sexual mismatch. Because they still have 20 or 30 or 40 years of life left, and living all those years filled with resentment isn't a great idea for either spouse. Whereas in biblical times, if you were married 20 years and you stopped having sex, at least you could expect to die pretty soon so why bother getting divorced?


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