# walked in on him



## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

So i was feelling really ill so my fiance is being all nice i wake up go downstairs and he is jacking off to porn...i get upset saying wtf and he says what is the big deal i was horney u were sick..so here is what i am angry about..he seems to not give a crap im ill and all he was concerned about was getting his pleasure no concern for me..am i wrong to be upset
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

I would say yes, you are wrong to be upset

was he ignoring you all day so he could jack off, or did he just have a 30 minute or so break to relieve some stress.

You say he was being all nice, which sounds like he had been caring for you and just wanted a little personal pleasurable time.

You're over reacting.



DT4379 said:


> So i was feelling really ill so my fiance is being all nice i wake up go downstairs and he is jacking off to porn...i get upset saying wtf and he says what is the big deal i was horney u were sick..so here is what i am angry about..he seems to not give a crap im ill and all he was concerned about was getting his pleasure no concern for me..am i wrong to be upset
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

Well i apologized for overeacting now he will not talk to me ..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

I'd be pretty pissed if my wife snapped at me for no reason... Leave him alone for a little bit.

You sound seriously cranky... Sounds like your problem, not his.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Well if she is sick of course she is going to be cranky. OP I personally see nothing wrong with a man masterbating if his wife is unable to help relieve him. I too think you over reacted, especially if he has been caring for you all day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

Gaia said:


> Well if she is sick of course she is going to be cranky. _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really? Necessarily? My apologies... My standards for people are too high then...


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

Interlocutor said:


> I'd be pretty pissed if my wife snapped at me for no reason... Leave him alone for a little bit.
> 
> You sound seriously cranky... Sounds like your problem, not his.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

[Not cranky at all..he is the one angry not me vQUOTE=Interlocutor;1255084]I'd be pretty pissed if my wife snapped at me for no reason... Leave him alone for a little bit.

You sound seriously cranky... Sounds like your problem, not his.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

He's angry because he feels ashamed for doing what he did because of the way you reacted.

Masturbation is natural and normal. Porn CAN cause a problem, but that doesn't always happen. If your sexlife is good and he treats you like a whole woman, then I wouldn't see a problem.

Was he taking care of you while sick? Or was he bugging you for sex while you were sick?


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

DT4379 said:


> [*Not cranky at all..he is the one angry not me *vQUOTE=Interlocutor;1255084]I'd be pretty pissed if my wife snapped at me for no reason... Leave him alone for a little bit.
> 
> You sound seriously cranky... Sounds like your problem, not his.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Looks like you're having some trouble posting... 

I think I gather from here that you are not cranky, which debunks the law that all sick people must of course be cranky, and that he has stayed angry with you...

I think you should simply and in a friendly way tell him that you guys misunderstood each other... Tell him you are not angry at him at all, and that since he is the only one angry at you, he should cheer up so that you guys can get along since, again, no one is really upset at the other anyway... I'm guessing he should relax and you guys can have a great evening... Hope you feel better.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

The anger no doubt comes from being shamed. No-one reacts well to that.

Why were you so angry? Really?

Do you have an existing 'NO porn' policy in your home?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Short answer: yes, you were wrong.

Ask yourself - Is he a man?

If the answer is yes, then with no more information you can answer the question of whether or not he sometimes masturbates to pornography with 99% accuracy. 

As an internationally known sex advice columnist would put it, if you're a woman with an issue with pornography, everything works best when he pretends not to view it and you pretend to believe him.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Some people have problem with porn while others do not.

My husband was not happy I watched a free video I received when I bought some new toys. I watched it for 2 minutes and threw it in our toy box in case he wanted to watch it. It's still in there not touched since.

Porn is not for me and it's not for my hubby either. I'm very fine with that. I do think masterbating is normal for most people.

You probably overreacted a little, but now he knows your uncomfortable with porn. 

I hope you feel better soon. It's not fun being sick. I have such a high drive that being sick does not stop us from having sex, we won't kiss each other on the mouth until we are better.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

I don't think there is anything wrong with him getting his rocks on with himself like this -- unless he's a recovering porn addict and this violates his healing, or, porn goes against y'all's marital boundaries and he's exploiting your ill downtime to sneak a little something something on the side. Just because you are ill and miserable doesn't mean that he has to be miserable, too. Getting angry about this seems like an overreaction. Apologize sincerely and then just leave him alone until he is ready to accept the apology and get along again.

Of course, if you are seriously ill (& this isn't just a virus or something) and he is your caretaker and being negligent at your expense, then, make some time to talk to him about your needs and feelings, honestly and openly. Otherwise, take a step back and look at the bigger picture because you are BOTH individuals with needs and not servants of each other bound solely to a function of marriage that has become routine or expected. If it's the porn itself that bugs you, wait till you're both past this little storm and then discuss it rationally.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Maybe you can get caught rubbing one out and then he can go off and then you guys will be all squared up.
In fact maybe you can just start rubbing one out in front of him...a sign that shows him....sometimes we all just need to rub one out!!

But then again I'm always rubbing one out, so Mrs. the-guy expect it...its when I'm not horny that gets her concern...especially at 45. LOL


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Been there done that--except I never got caught. Totally understandable that he'd do so.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Hell I would be p-ssed too if I was him


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## needguidance (Aug 17, 2012)

How long did he neglect you? Obviously you were upset for a specific reason but Im assuming he spent a lot of time away or took too long to get you something requesting due to him trying to get his rocks off? If you were sleep or just minding your business while he was doing this, whats the deal then? Sounds like you are looking for something to be mad about this is the icing on the cake. I understand if you're sick and he's suppose to be by your side making sure your needs are met. I personally don't like to be bothered too much when Im sick. I like being pampered by the W but other than I prefer to just keep to myself because Im so irritable when Im sick. Think you need to be more specific to him as far as either being mad at the act of him doing, him doing it to porn, or it consuming time that he could have been taking care of you.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Hell I would be p-ssed too if I was him


:iagree:


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Interlocutor said:


> Really? Necessarily? My apologies... My standards for people are too high then...


No where in my post did I say all sick people are cranky nor did I imply it was a law. I implied that I wouldnt be suprised if she was. I dont know about you but every person I know including myself, my kids, and my spouse gets cranky when sick. I see nothing wrong with it and I find it perfectly natural.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> So i was feelling really ill so my fiance is being all nice i wake up go downstairs and he is jacking off to porn...i get upset saying wtf and he says what is the big deal i was horney u were sick..so here is what i am angry about..he seems to not give a crap im ill and all he was concerned about was getting his pleasure no concern for me..am i wrong to be upset
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, he was horney, you were sick...men have needs, and I'm sure ge didn't leave you lying hungry in your own filth....Really , you said he was being all nice...Didn't he fix soup or somethiung before you turned in?....I may be a little harsh, but my wife just gave me the flimsiest excuse for not having sex in the universe, and I am getting ready to whack off to some porn.......Get well soon....


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

Gaia said:


> No where in my post did I say all sick people are cranky nor did I imply it was a law. I implied that I wouldnt be suprised if she was. I dont know about you but every person I know including myself, my kids, and my spouse gets cranky when sick. I see nothing wrong with it and I find it perfectly natural.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just reread your post to be fair... I feel it does imply that. I surmise you will disagree so that's that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> So i was feelling really ill so my fiance is being all nice i wake up go downstairs and he is jacking off to porn...i get upset saying wtf and he says what is the big deal i was horney u were sick..*so here is what i am angry about..he seems to not give a crap im ill and all he was concerned about was getting his pleasure no concern for me.*.am i wrong to be upset
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So DT when you figure out how respond back to our post, can you give a better explanation on the area that I made bold? I want to get a better understanding of you and your relationship with your H. It would appear that there is more to this story, but my problem is that you are giving a truncated version of the totality of this event. Or maybe even just the totality of previous events of this sort that defines your relationship. Also remember we only get to hear your side of the story so understand that it is possible that you are creating a bias that many other posters are reacting to and thus don't take offense and just leave. Help us understand.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Interlocutor said:


> I just reread your post to be fair... I feel it does imply that. I surmise you will disagree so that's that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well if it came across that way its certainly not how I intended it to so I apologize for that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

So after a long night of no talking (took the advice and said nothing) ..I get up this morning and he had my lunch made..so I get to work open it up and he has a note written this is what he says :I wnated to apologize for last night. I was so embarrased about everything. The reason I was angry was because you sneaked downstairs. I usually hera you when you walk but I didnt yesterday. Thats why I was so upset. It was nothing just some stupid porn..Im sooooo sorry Please know that I find you the sexiest woman on earth. I would never cheat on you. know it looked bad but its really just some stupid porn Please forgive me" 

Okay I can forgive but what bugs me is he said I sneaked down which I didnt and second is he hiding anything else then if he waits to hera me walking around....I dont care about the pron well maybe a little but I can get over that...

What should I do?


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Let it go! Don't say another word. His letter was very nice. Why are you still upset?

He said you sneaked down because he was embarrassed you walked in on him.

This should not of turned into an argument.


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

No Im not upset at all I wnated to make him feel okay thats why I never said a thing about last night this morning ..Just told him I loved him and to have a great day...Thanks for all the advice on this I appreciate all the comments


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> *Some people have problem with porn while others do not.*
> 
> .


:iagree: with this.

Maybe you can use this as an opportunity to have a sensible discussion about it.


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

No I think my best bet is to let it go...he just called and apologized again..I can let it go I hope he can


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## sweaty teddy (Nov 13, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> No I think my best bet is to let it go...he just called and apologized again..I can let it go I hope he can


do you have a problem with him taking care of himself when your not able?

do you have a problem with him using porn when he takes care of things?

do you ever masterbate yourself? and do you use toys.




I think it would go a long way if you also apoligised about how you reacted to catching him. tell him you understand sometimes a person just needs a release..


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> No I think my best bet is to let it go...he just called and apologized again..I can let it go I hope he can


I would keep things light. What if you said..."Honey, you don't have to do that in private...I know you have needs and I understand that....I do it too sometimes"

To me, that would take the sting and embarrassment out of the situation and might open up a very good conversation....


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm sure it will pass with him too. One thing I noticed is men usually do not dwell on things and think about them over and over.lol. At least my husband doesn't and I've read this in many articles. I bet he feels really bad about the porn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

No I have no problem with using porn we have often looked ta it otgether I also have watched by mysedl maybe not as much as him but Ill admit I have...I did tell him I understand and that I know its normal but with Him its best to just drop it..I will talk to him when I get home and tell him Its okay I understand..I guess deep down I felt it was like cheating and that he wants another woman or that if If I didnt wnat to have sex he would just go find someone else to have it with if he said I was just horney and needed it..Im insecure I guess


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

It's not cheating. He doesn't want another woman. He just wants his thing to feel good for 10 minutes. You will be way happier in life if you accept your man as he is made.


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

I agree hicks I do but we have had a rocky past..Caught him talking about other women saying he would like to cuddle up to that etc...so I guess I was feeling a little cheated but Im forgiving and I guess what happened yesterday brought up a few unsafe feelings for me..


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

i think your fiance was embarrassed and it's coming out as anger. he's wasn't embarrassed masturbating until you blew your cork, he didn't know how else to react. i think i would find it HOT to see my husband masturbate.

As far as him not being there for you, you'd have to be really really darn sick to need around the clock care.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

It seems to me the two of you, since getting past the initial shock, have handled it well. What about trying to turn it around into something sexy by discussing what type of porn he likes to watch and how he likes to pleasure himself while watching it?


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> So after a long night of no talking (took the advice and said nothing) ..I get up this morning and he had my lunch made..so I get to work open it up and he has a note written this is what he says :I wnated to apologize for last night. I was so embarrased about everything. The reason I was angry was because you sneaked downstairs. I usually hera you when you walk but I didnt yesterday. Thats why I was so upset. It was nothing just some stupid porn..Im sooooo sorry Please know that I find you the sexiest woman on earth. I would never cheat on you. know it looked bad but its really just some stupid porn Please forgive me"
> 
> Okay I can forgive but what bugs me is he said I sneaked down which I didnt and second is he hiding anything else then if he waits to hera me walking around....I dont care about the pron well maybe a little but I can get over that...
> 
> What should I do?


Before I became open with my wife about my sexuality, I was a repressed masturbater, same as him. I didn't want her to ever catch me doing it, but certainly had to as we were nearly sexless. The very first time she did catch me, we had a similar experience as yours.
Fastforward to now...I, most of the time will announce to her that I am going to masturbate and usually ask her if she wants to watch. She hasn't turned down a viewing yet.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

He made your lunch the next day and everything after you were upset at him having some fun masturbating? Jeez, cut the guy some slack!

YOU make his lunch tomorrow and wear his favorite lingerie of yours!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> So after a long night of no talking (took the advice and said nothing) ..I get up this morning and he had my lunch made..so I get to work open it up and he has a note written this is what he says :I wnated to apologize for last night. I was so embarrased about everything. The reason I was angry was because you sneaked downstairs. I usually hera you when you walk but I didnt yesterday. Thats why I was so upset. It was nothing just some stupid porn..Im sooooo sorry Please know that I find you the sexiest woman on earth. I would never cheat on you. know it looked bad but its really just some stupid porn Please forgive me"
> 
> Okay I can forgive but what bugs me is he said I sneaked down which I didnt and second is he hiding anything else then if he waits to hera me walking around....I dont care about the pron well maybe a little but I can get over that...
> 
> What should I do?


Really? Seriously? This dude took care of you while sick, asked for forgiveness for doing something he does NOT need your permission, or blessing, to do, makes you lunch, writes a killer amazing note...

And you STILL have problems.

I can't. I just can't. 

Good luck to this guy. He's going to need it.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Really? Seriously? This dude took care of you while sick, asked for forgiveness for doing something he does NOT need your permission, or blessing, to do, makes you lunch, writes a killer amazing note...
> 
> And you STILL have problems.
> 
> ...


Bingo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

DT4379 said:


> So after a long night of no talking (took the advice and said nothing) ..I get up this morning and he had my lunch made..so I get to work open it up and he has a note written this is what he says :I wnated to apologize for last night. I was so embarrased about everything. The reason I was angry was because you sneaked downstairs. I usually hera you when you walk but I didnt yesterday. Thats why I was so upset. It was nothing just some stupid porn..Im sooooo sorry Please know that I find you the sexiest woman on earth. I would never cheat on you. know it looked bad but its really just some stupid porn Please forgive me"
> 
> Okay I can forgive but what bugs me is he said I sneaked down which I didnt and second is he hiding anything else then if he waits to hera me walking around....I dont care about the pron well maybe a little but I can get over that...
> 
> What should I do?


Drop it... and learn how to cough loudly as you walk down the stairs


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Really? Seriously? This dude took care of you while sick, asked for forgiveness for doing something he does NOT need your permission, or blessing, to do, makes you lunch, writes a killer amazing note...
> 
> And you STILL have problems.
> 
> ...


:iagree: to a point. I'm wondering if maybe there's a deeper history here that we don't know about and it's causing her to react the way she does? 

If there isn't a back story to this then honey you are being totally unfair to what sounds like an amazing man.no one should have to apologize for masturbating.


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

Yup there is a deeper menaing with our past..he broke many promoises time and time again..contcated alot of woman behind my back etc..now I could go on and to be honest I have been very supportive of everything aka drinking problem(resolved now etc) So give me some slack please ..I again was big enough to apologize and told him I overreated so for all the people said good luck to him maybe you need to ask a few more questions before you give me crap...thanks again


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> Yup there is a deeper menaing with our past..he broke many promoises time and time again..contcated alot of woman behind my back etc..now I could go on and to be honest I have been very supportive of everything aka drinking problem(resolved now etc) So give me some slack please ..I again was big enough to apologize and told him I overreated so for all the people said good luck to him maybe you need to ask a few more questions before you give me crap...thanks again


Yet another thread where the OP doesn't give vital, important info up front.

How can you expect people to give you accurate, tailored advice and suggestions for your problem if you don't provide the most important details to us from the get go?

So no, it isn't our job to "ask a few more questions". With the information YOU provided, that's the natural conclusion most came to.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

DT4379 said:


> Yup there is a deeper menaing with our past..he broke many promoises time and time again..contcated alot of woman behind my back etc..now I could go on and to be honest I have been very supportive of everything aka drinking problem(resolved now etc) So give me some slack please ..I again was big enough to apologize and told him I overreated so for all the people said good luck to him maybe you need to ask a few more questions before you give me crap...thanks again


We only work with what you give us, so maybe you should provide relevant backstory to your feeling so you don't get crap for things that otherwise seem silly...

There'd be a big difference between me posting that my wife had a drink last night and I'm upset and my formerly alcoholic wife had a drink last night and I'm upset...

The details are your job to tell us, thank you. NOT OURS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> Yup there is a deeper menaing with our past..he broke many promoises time and time again..contcated alot of woman behind my back etc..now I could go on and to be honest I have been very supportive of everything aka drinking problem(resolved now etc) So give me some slack please ..I again was big enough to apologize and told him I overreated so for all the people said good luck to him maybe you need to ask a few more questions before you give me crap...thanks again


Well, put me down in the camp who doesn't care about the details here.

It is almost never wrong for a spouse to masturbate unless they are using it as a means of avoiding sex with their S.O. Even if that means a little me-time with the computer. Unless he promised to your face "Hon, tonight I will absolutely keep my hands off myself, pinky swear", you got no beef. 

A prior drinking problem is so completely beside the point that it doesn't bear mentioning in the story. You were sick and unavailable. Get over it. He will continue to do this in your marriage until one of you gets put in the ground.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> Yup there is a deeper menaing with our past..he broke many promoises time and time again..contcated alot of woman behind my back etc..now I could go on and to be honest I have been very supportive of everything aka drinking problem(resolved now etc) So give me some slack please ..I again was big enough to apologize and told him I overreated so for all the people said good luck to him maybe you need to ask a few more questions before you give me crap...thanks again


To be clear,it was the masturbating to porn that got you upset rather than just the masturbating?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I wonder if OP didn't give those details about her partner at first bc she didn't want to demonize him or get "he's an a**hole,dump him!!" responses?Maybe omitting those details,she thought she'd get a more fair answer?

Of course,not knowing those details sways people to think you're not being a good partner,OP. So either way it's a tough call to share vs not sharing.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

DT4379 said:


> Yup there is a deeper menaing with our past..he broke many promoises time and time again..contcated alot of woman behind my back etc..now I could go on and to be honest I have been very supportive of everything aka drinking problem(resolved now etc) So give me some slack please ..I again was big enough to apologize and told him I overreated so for all the people said good luck to him maybe you need to ask a few more questions before you give me crap...thanks again


How does this relate to him masterbating to porn? Was the porn involving live feeds, or was it just movies on-line? Also, why is your use of porn acceptable, but his not?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

IF he's a crappy husband then you should not stick with him.

But if you have moved on from mistakes of the past, I think it's in your best interest to accept that as a man, he will do this. Squelching a normal sexual release and denying this "safe" outlet will cause him to explode and do far more marriage harming behaviors (go more extreme).

The shame and secrecy of it all, the "wrongness" that the man is made to feel, like you are his mommy... None of this is helpful to your marriage.


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## Playthang (Dec 3, 2012)

In my opinion it is normal for both men & women to enjoy pleasuring themselves. If there is someone on the planet Earth that can tell you otherwise, I'd like to hear it in person  I think the whole idea of the spouse masturbating (alone) carries a kind of stigma, so far as the person not involved feels "betrayed" or "cheated on". Humans are very sexual creatures and sometimes its nice to have that private time. He needs to know that you're okay with what happened. Its just that simple. Apologize for getting upset & let him know that you understand. Good luck!


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## Michael A. Brown (Oct 16, 2012)

Better try to talk your husband and solve this problem.


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

Okay I caught him again this morning wtf is going on..we had awesome sex last night and as soon as I leave the house he is at it again ..now Im pissed


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

If you had left the house how did you catch him?


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

I came back in to get my lunch I just dont get it I was willing to have sex with him this morning what am I doing wrong here? He says he would never cheat but this is not making me feel so great...


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

he used to look at porn constantly a year ago then stopped now it seems he has the habit back Im concerned


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

How old is he?
Beside the porn , how has the relationship been between both of you?
What about his libido , is it high or just normal ?


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

he is 45 and his libido is lower than mine I feel..or maybe he is just not attracted to me anymore..Im really destroyed by this


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

whats bothering me more is the lying..why send me a hearfelt note about forgiving him and then first chance he gets he ddoes it again


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> whats bothering me more is the lying..why send me a hearfelt note about forgiving him and then first chance he gets he ddoes it again


Where in the note did he say he wouldn't do it again? In the transcript you posted he said he was embarrassed he got caught because he usually hears you, and called porn "stupid". But you said nothing about him promising to stop masturbation and porn.

Why do you keep saying you have no problem with him masturbating, when clearly you do?


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

I just thought he wouldnyt do it again ..my mistake for sure...I just think porn and him having to get a need met when Im there is wrong and makes me feel degraded and unloved...I know this man to well and I had a gut feeling this morning he was waiting for me to leave..I think he would cheat in a second if given the chance ..there is something wrong with him


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> I just thought he wouldnyt do it again ..my mistake for sure...


Why did you convince yourself that a man wouldn't do what over 90% of other men do?




DT4379 said:


> I just think porn and him having to get a need met when Im there is wrong and makes me feel degraded and unloved...I know this man to well and I had a gut feeling this morning he was waiting for me to leave..I think he would cheat in a second if given the chance ..there is something wrong with him


What does watching porn have to do with cheating on you? 

Do you have a problem with the porn, or is it the masturbation to?

If he's cheated on you in the past, than deal with that. But if you come to him saying that you believe he is going to cheat because he's jacking off and porn watching I doubt you'll get a good response.


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

problem with the porn!!!!!!!!! if I am willing to have sex with him then why does he go behind my back as soon as I leave to get off on watching another woman


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## Playthang (Dec 3, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> problem with the porn!!!!!!!!! if I am willing to have sex with him then why does he go behind my back as soon as I leave to get off on watching another woman


Maybe he's going behind your back because you have this type of reaction??
Men are visual in the sense that they like to "watch". Having sex with the lights on is a good example. I don't think there is anything wrong with him doing what he's done. 99% of the male population are anticipating the exit of their spouse so they can rub one off!! Lol. I'm sorry, I just think that being angry at him for being human isn't the way to go. Would you be willing to watch it with him? Sorry if someone's already asked this


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

I have watched with him and even suggested it..Just seems like he has no interest in me I always have to iniate sex and feel he is lazy in the bedroom..I even dresses up in his fav outfit one night when he cane home form work and finally after some coaxing we had sex..


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

But why did he start watching again all of a sudden...He gave it up know its going to be his obbession again...I know i have an issue with it and Im trying to understand but I felt he had a problem with it and I told him so we actually broke up over this before..So why start again now?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> But why did he start watching again all of a sudden...He gave it up know its going to be his obbession again...I know i have an issue with it and Im trying to understand but I felt he had a problem with it and I told him so we actually broke up over this before..So why start again now?


I might be wrong here,
But I'm guessing that both of you also have problems with intimacy?
Do you feel close to him , like being able to talk/laugh about anything and vice versa? Or are there some areas between both of you [ except porn ] that are " out of bounds " that you all are not able to communicate?
I am thinking that the porn is filling in for something.
Just me guessing.


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

I felt we were doing great we laugh talk have fun together...what am i missing? Is he getting bored and need smore excitement? Im at a loss at what to do and If he needs more than maybe we should not get married


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

what could porn for him be filling in what is he missing I wonder


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> problem with the porn!!!!!!!!! if I am willing to have sex with him then why does he go behind my back as soon as I leave to get off on watching another woman


I am a man. I am a man who masturbates, and sometimes looks at porn. I have watched porn, and masturbated, on the _same day_ that I've had sex with me wife.

My masturbation has nothing to do with my wife, at all. If I want to tug one out, I want to tug one out. It's not a replacement for my woman, and there isn't any competition going on. When I am in the mood to self please, I self please, and when I'm in the mood for sex, I have sex. This is not uncommon.

Don't get into a competition with your man's right (or left or both) hand. It's silly. 

If he has a bonafide addiction, than deal with that. 

If your sex life sucks, and he's replacing you with masturbation, deal with that. 


But if this is all out of paranoia because you have a low self esteem and believe you should be able to control when, and if, your man looks at porn and plays with his own God given body, and he does not truly agree, than deal with YOURSELF.


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

Jaquen I understand but if he stopped and started again whats the deal with that why now???? if he looked at it once a week all thsi time fine but now hes doing the sneky thing again why is what I want to know


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> I felt we were doing great we laugh talk have fun together...what am i missing? Is he getting bored and need smore excitement? Im at a loss at what to do and If he needs more than maybe we should not get married


No, you should not get married unless you find a way to realistically resolve this conflict.

He can't, and shouldn't, stop watching porn and masturbating for you. It has to be something that he has a personal conviction over, and he has to stop doing it for _himself_.

On your part you seem like you've got some serious self esteem, or body image issues. You're reacting to the porn as though you're catching him cheating on you with another woman. You're getting devastated over some jacking off and some porn usage. Your mind set right now doesn't seem to be all that healthy.

The last thing either of you need to be thinking about is getting married anytime soon. These kinds of fundamental differences on sexual matters come back to haunt people ALL THE TIME. Best to head them off before marriage, and if you can't reach an agreement, avoid marrying all together.


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

People start hiding their porn habit when they feel they can't be open about it in their relationship.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> Jaquen I understand but if he stopped and started again whats the deal with that why now???? if he looked at it once a week all thsi time fine but now hes doing the sneky thing again why is what I want to know


He's sneaking because he knows you don't want him to do it.

If it's something he wants to do, and has no intention of giving up, he needs to just be honest about it and tell you that he's not planning to stop.

But most guys sneak because of out of control reactions like you're having right now. Nobody likes to feel shamed, or embarrassed.


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## sweaty teddy (Nov 13, 2012)

I agree that if your willing to have sex and intinate often then he is being an a$$.

are there things he likes sexually that you won't do for him? he could be suplementing with porn to get the fantasy of whats hes missing at home.

I know if my wife was interested in a healthy sex life I would have very little to no desire to watch porn alone.


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

I do everything for him Im the one to have to ask almost beg for oral sex.....He gets everything he wants I am the one not getting what I want...Maybe anal is the only thing I wont do yet


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

jaquen said:


> But most guys sneak because of out of control reactions like you're having right now. Nobody likes to feel shamed, or embarrassed.


Especially this - I found porn much more irresistable when I felt guilty about doing it because of my partners reaction. From the moment she opened up it lost a lot of its allure. I guess OP falls into the category of partners that make porn the 'forbidden fruit' so to say.


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

why would you wnat to hurt your partner when you knwo something like this would hurt them..I would never do anything to hurt him..this just doesnt make sense to me it says you just dont give a dam about their feelings


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

Exactly that type of guilt-tripping made it much worse for me. What you're essentially doing is making your partner feel crap about themselves making it much more difficult to overcome the problem.


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## 40isthenew20 (Jul 12, 2012)

Isnt it funny how a woman gets upset & yells at her H for masturbating when a guy - if he walked in on his wife pleasuring herself - would be thrilled, immediately horny and ready to dive in?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> I felt we were doing great we laugh talk have fun together...what am i missing? Is he getting bored and need smore excitement? Im at a loss at what to do and If he needs more than maybe we should not get married


Well then if you all are doing great, then why are you worried with the porn?
If the sex is good enough for you then his porn usage should not really affect you negatively.
Men masturbate as well as women, even though they are married.
Men use visual stimuli such as porn, women tend to use mental images.

If there is nothing wrong with the relationship then don't let the porn become a problem.
My suggestion again is to have an unbiased discussion about it ,instead of forming all these opinions about him using it. Draw up some clear boundaries and agree on them.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

sweaty teddy said:


> I agree that if your willing to have sex and intinate often then he is being an a$$.


The just had sex _last night_.

This woman seems to believe that he HAS to have sex with her every single time she's willing, even if they just had sex a few hours prior.

That's ludicrous.



DT4379 said:


> why would you wnat to hurt your partner when you knwo something like this would hurt them..I would never do anything to hurt him..this just doesnt make sense to me it says you just dont give a dam about their feelings


Did you forget the part where you told us YOU WATCH PORN??


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jaquen said:


> The just had sex _last night_.
> 
> This woman seems to believe that he HAS to have sex with her every single time she's willing, even if they just had sex a few hours prior.
> 
> That's ludicrous.


:iagree:

My thoughts exactly.
I think she feels that she should be his only sexual outlet.
I think she needs to look at it from a different perspective.
If she does masturbate then what's wrong with him doing it?
Even if she doesn't , nothing is wrong if he wants to do it.

She probably feels as though she's competing with the
" porno girls", but nothing could be further from the truth.

Maybe she's talking from a religious perspective?


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

The OP may not have given all the info straight up. Many posters do not.

The Op has stated that his drive is lower then hers.

He has had EA's and crossed many boundaries making her understandably insecure.

He also rather then go to her for sex is turning to porn (hence her coming home to find him masturbating rather then hitting her up for sex just before).

Ask your selves what you would say if a woman was avoiding sex in this way?

OP your relationship is not healthy. If your H doesn't want se with you often, yet he's masturbating to porn, then yes the porn needs to go. You also need counseling because I fear you have not dealt with his EA's, nor what your boundaries are and what will make you feel secure in the relationship.

Good luck.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> My thoughts exactly.
> I think she feels that she should be his only sexual outlet.
> ...


I disagree, one rightfully might feel they are competing when ones spouse makes it seem like they are losing a competition.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> My thoughts exactly.
> I think she feels that she should be his only sexual outlet.
> ...



Her story is shifting, that's why it's confusing. Because she stated earlier in the thread that she has no problem with porn, and watches it herself:



DT4379 said:


> No I have no problem with using porn we have often looked ta it otgether I also have watched by mysedl maybe not as much as him but Ill admit I have...I did tell him I understand and that I know its normal but with Him its best to just drop it..I will talk to him when I get home and tell him Its okay I understand..I guess deep down I felt it was like cheating and that he wants another woman or that if If I didnt wnat to have sex he would just go find someone else to have it with if he said I was just horney and needed it..Im insecure I guess


She's contradicting herself left and right on the subject. 

Bottom line, this is deeper than she's admitting. It likely roots into a serious self esteem/body image issue.


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## I Notice The Details (Sep 15, 2012)

40isthenew20 said:


> Isnt it funny how a woman gets upset & yells at her H for masturbating when a guy - if he walked in on his wife pleasuring herself - would be thrilled, immediately horny and ready to dive in?


:iagree: Walking in on my wife doing this is one of my biggest fantasies....still hasn't happened yet in 16 years of marriage. At least I can fantasize about it.


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

I watch porn really only with him..or by myself just before he comes home to get excited ....I never yelled I just was disappointed...I also told him I know its natural but I dont understand...I just would like to know why he would start watching again now when he didnt for so long what triggered this


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

Is he a recovering porn addict or something?


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

yes i do feel like im competeing but I have heard him talk to the guys about wnating to screw this one or that one ..also heard him constatly telling his buddies about the peice of gear at work ....so know tell me im being insecure???


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> I watch porn really only with him..or by myself just before he comes home to get excited ....I never yelled I just was disappointed...I also told him I know its natural but I dont understand...I just would like to know why he would start watching again now when he didnt for so long what triggered this


How do you know he wasn't watching "for so long"? Many men hide their porn and their girlfriends and wives have no idea they're watching.

And why do you think a man needs a "trigger"? I can got months without watching porn, and then pick it up again. There is no "trigger" for me.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Syrum said:


> I disagree, one rightfully might feel they are competing when ones spouse makes it seem like they are losing a competition.


Ok,
I read her last few posts and her story has shifted a bit.
I asked her earlier on and she did say that the relationship was great.
But I am willing to give way.
And your point about porn in a relationship _if _one partner was denying another sex is a valid point


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

I want to thank all of you for your advice and if I sounded mad Im not I just dont get it and maybe I never will..All of the guys seem to think its normal and if thats the case I guess i just accept and move on...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> yes i do feel like im competeing but I have heard him talk to the guys about wnating to screw this one or that one ..also heard him constatly telling his buddies about the peice of gear at work ....so know tell me im being insecure???


I feel bad for you, and a lot of women, who get a peak into the world of the male mind, and male interaction, and see how we (well some, not all) really are outside of your ear/eye shot.

Looking at porn, jacking off, and talking about hot girls with your boys, is what a lot of guys do. You seem flabbergasted and upset that your man is, well, a man. I am very confused right now.

Look, maybe we need some more details. If he cheated on you, can you tell us what happened?


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## DT4379 (Sep 21, 2012)

I am not sure if he cheated I have asked and he said he never would but to be honest he has a shifty past and lies about almost everything..so maybe I have a right to feel this way maybe Im just paranoid ..but I do appreciate all the advice and comments it has opened my eyes..I really felt he is the only guy that talks like that about women as when I overheard the conversations the other guys never talked like thta..so cheating I dont know maybe he would if given the chance


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> I am not sure if he cheated I have asked and he said he never would but to be honest he has a shifty past and lies about almost everything..so maybe I have a right to feel this way maybe Im just paranoid ..but I do appreciate all the advice and comments it has opened my eyes..I really felt he is the only guy that talks like that about women as when I overheard the conversations the other guys never talked like thta..so cheating I dont know maybe he would if given the chance


Why are you planning on marrying a man who has a "shifty past", and "lies about almost everything"? You don't trust him, and trust is a major cornerstone of a healthy marriage.

:scratchhead:


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

If you are unmarried, then yes you should not marry him.
You have all the information you need to make a decision about who he is. Your question should not be "WHY" it should be "WHO" as in who is this man? 

You have a way of spilling facts after your question... But the bottom line is if you have sexual problems prior to marriage then you should not get married or have children.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Why are you planning on marrying a man who has a "shifty past", and "lies about almost everything"? You don't trust him, and trust is a major cornerstone of a healthy marriage.
> 
> :scratchhead:


I have to agree. I believe when making such important decisions as getting married you really have to pay attention to your gut. If something is bothering you about him, particularly if you can't put your finger on it, hold off making any commitments until you figure out what it is. I think most often we know deep down inside when there's something wrong.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

40isthenew20 said:


> Isnt it funny how a woman gets upset & yells at her H for masturbating when a guy - if he walked in on his wife pleasuring herself - would be thrilled, immediately horny and ready to dive in?


Rather astute comment. How long would it take most of us guys to get hard and jump her if we walked in on her?


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

The only reason I used to masturbate to porn a lot when my wife and I were first married, was because I was at my sexual high, mid 20's and she is a larger girl with a low sex drive. Going 2+ weeks at a time of no sex and never more than once builds up, stress from work and life and I need my release. When I get sex at least 3 times each week, lots cuddling, physical attention, my desire for porn is 0. I'd rather be with my wife and do those things with her than my hand but that is not reality.


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## ankh (Oct 14, 2012)

If I walked in and caught my wife, first I would ask that she continue, then I'd stat playing too. I'd be hard in less than a minute, watching her.


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## samatedge (Dec 7, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samatedge (Dec 7, 2012)

My opinion is men dont take porn seriously enough. There is an epidemic of marriages falling apart because men AND women are taking care of there own needs outside the marriage. Porn starts out giving people the same or at least similar chemical high as cheating. Eventually when that high can no longder be achieved, thats when a person is ripe for an affair or escorts or...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Terry_CO (Oct 23, 2012)

samatedge said:


> Porn starts out giving people the same or at least similar chemical high as cheating. Eventually when that high can no longder be achieved, thats when a person is ripe for an affair or escorts or...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is this valid data? Or something you yanked out of where the sun don't shine because you disapprove?

What total horse***t!


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I feel bad for you, and a lot of women, who get a peak into the world of the male mind, and male interaction, and see how we (well some, not all) really are outside of your ear/eye shot.
> 
> Looking at porn, jacking off, and talking about hot girls with your boys, is what a lot of guys do. You seem flabbergasted and upset that your man is, well, a man. I am very confused right now.
> 
> Look, maybe we need some more details. If he cheated on you, can you tell us what happened?


I have a serious objection to your post: "looking at porn, jacking off, and talking about HOT chicks is most certainly NOT what MOST guys do, it is what ALL guys do...

We are hard wired, and the only way to fix it is to "FIX" us....

Any guy who does not talk about hot chicks, look at porn, and jack off is talking about hot Guys, looking at porn, and jacking off. If they tell you otherwise, they are lying......:lol:

And while we are on the subject, how many of the ladies spend an inordinate amount of time talking about hot guys, reading "LOVE" stories like 50 shades, and using up the batteries in their toys? :rofl:


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## samatedge (Dec 7, 2012)

Its valid data. Ill provide resources when I can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Terry_CO (Oct 23, 2012)

samatedge said:


> Its valid data. Ill provide resources when I can.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Providing resources is easy. Anyone with a website can profess to be an "expert". Providing *valid* resources isn't as easy. I'll wait for your links


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## samatedge (Dec 7, 2012)

Terry_CO said:


> Providing resources is easy. Anyone with a website can profess to be an "expert". Providing *valid* resources isn't as easy. I'll wait for your links


A friend of mine happens to be one of the foremost experts in the world on porn, sex and love addiction. Hes written multiple best selling books, is a PHD, speaker and has counseled thousands of people. 

Something tells me these credentials will not suit your "viability" test.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

samatedge said:


> My opinion is men dont take porn seriously enough. There is an epidemic of marriages falling apart because men AND women are taking care of there own needs outside the marriage. Porn starts out giving people the same or at least similar chemical high as cheating. Eventually when that high can no longder be achieved, thats when a person is ripe for an affair or escorts or...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will have to play the BULL$HIT card on this one....As an HD male, I see porn as a form of entertainment...It has no more effect on my lifestyle than watching reruns of "I love Lucy"

What go's through my mind when I "self serve"? Images of my wife....We go back 47 years, and it is increadibly easy for me to get aroused thinking back on previous sexual encounters with her....

If all porn was erased from the face of the earth today, I would still have to deal with being HD tomorrow......And absolutely NOTHING would change as far as my level of sexual arousal, or need for regular sex with my wife.......


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

IndyTM said:


> Before I became open with my wife about my sexuality, I was a repressed masturbater, same as him. I didn't want her to ever catch me doing it, but certainly had to as we were nearly sexless. The very first time she did catch me, we had a similar experience as yours.
> Fastforward to now...I, most of the time will announce to her that I am going to masturbate and usually ask her if she wants to watch. She hasn't turned down a viewing yet.


BRAVO....I havn't gotten to that point with my wife yet, but the next time I feel like putting a few rounds through my .44 I might ask her to join me...


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

samatedge said:


> A friend of mine happens to be one of the foremost experts in the world on porn, sex and love addiction. Hes written multiple best selling books, is a PHD, speaker and has counseled thousands of people.
> 
> Something tells me these credentials will not suit your "viability" test.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And is a MORON......


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Okay, just a woman's perspective here:

My husband knows that I do not want him looking at porn. He and I had this discussion before we married. He said that, although he had watched it once or twice, it wasn't something he wanted to dabble in. He said he knew he would like it too much. When I told him that porn use is something I will not tolerate, he agreed not to watch it. 

I don't approve of porn because, like it or not, it brings another person into the marriage for that short amount of time. I don't believe that it's on the same level as adultery, and I certainly don't think we all respond to it the same way, but for my marriage, it's something I will not allow. My husband knew this and accepted it from day one. 

He has slipped up once or twice and fully admitted it, and it _did_ hurt me. I know it's difficult for men to understand why some women feel so hurt over porn; you see it as nothing more than stimulation, but we really do wonder why you _have_ to seek out the images of other women to be stimulated. Like it or not, it implies that there's something insufficient about us. Yet you wonder why we have body image issues? And if you don't have to us it, why do it? Viewing porn implies to us that we simply aren't enough to meet your needs, whether you think that or not, whether you intend for that to be implied or not. 

Moreover, masturbation doesn't require porn. I have never, ever, used porn to masturbate. My husband has never masturbated to it the couple times he viewed it either. So, if it's not an essential part to sexual health, is it really that important? Now, don't get me wrong; I know that some women enjoy porn or, at least, are indifferent as to whether or not their man looks at it. So, to each their own. But please, let's forgo the implication that looking at porn is manly. Some men, really, could care less about porn. And for some women, it _is_ an issue, and that doesn't mean they're in the wrong, nor does it mean they have a negative body image. Some of us, really, just want complete and total devotion, and like it or not, watching another couple have sex doesn't exactly instill that security.

To the OP: first and foremost, you need to decide where your boundaries are. Frankly, you don't sound pleased at the idea of porn and, if you would rather him not watch it, you need to say so. Watching it with him, and using it on yourself for when he gets home, sends a drastically mixed message. Either you're okay with porn usage, or you're not. You need to decide which it is, and you need to tell him which it is. Then, he can tell you if porn is something he can live without or not. If he truly loves you the way a future husband should, it won't be that great of an issue. Not all men need porn in their lives to feel satisfied. 

If you decide that you can deal with the porn, then you need to let this drop. Why he's watching it now is really not important if this is something you intend to accept and move past, and what you need to focus on instead is moving past it. If, however, you decide that you really aren't okay with porn usage, then you need to set some boundaries and follow them yourself. No more watching porn on your own and then getting ticked off when you find him watching it. Not only is that hypocritical and unfair, it doesn't exactly produce a desire for him to please you, and it makes you look like a controlling....well, you get it. My husband has been incredibly frank with me at times when I've held him to a higher standard than I hold myself to, and though it sucked to hear it, he was right. And frankly, how sexy is a woman who wants to control everything?

Bear in mind, I'm not saying you actually are trying to control things, I'm saying that what you're doing _looks_ that way when you get mad at him for the porn(and the sneaking/hiding things), yet you watch porn when he's not home too. At best it's confusing, and boundaries will never be agreed to with confusion in the air.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

A woman who is anti-porn should always make that clear upfront. She should state that she doesn't agree with it, and will not tolerate that in her marriage.

On the other hand, she should be prepared, and ready, for frequent divorces. Because no matter what a man thinks he can promise up front at the top of a marriage, the chances are stacked well against him that he will go a lifetime without viewing some porn. It's equivalent of asking someone to go a lifetime without ever eating a single dessert or sweet. 

And this is why the vast majority of men hide their porn watching, and even their masturbation. Because well meaning women think it's very simple, and easy, to say "promise me you'll never succumb to porn", and like fools we make promises that the 99 out of 100 guys before us could not keep.

Men need to stop hiding. Men need to stop making promises they will not keep. Men need to be truthful with their wives, and themselves. And then, if they are honest, they can allow the women to get on with the business of finding that rare unicorn who will never look at porn.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I must have found that rare unicorn, then.

I would like to reiterate that porn is _not_ essential for a man to be fulfilled and happy and healthy. It's honorable for a man to discipline himself against something that causes his wife pain, especially if that woman meets his sexual needs. 

Also, I don't buy into the crap that "all men must look at porn" any more than I think that all women must read romance novels. Both can be harmful, and I don't think it helps to make the issue merely a woman's issue. We all have a choice to do what we do, and we can either choose to put our spouse above ourselves, or we can choose not to.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I must have found that rare unicorn, then.


Well, no. Because he has watched porn, and he even "slipped up" during the marriage. If he's "slipped up" before, it denotes on some level that he's attracted to porn, and could potentially "slip up" again. So that puts him in the 99% category.

It needs to be reiterated that talking about men and porn is not suggesting regular usage, or addiction. These conversations tend to swing far too easily to the extremes.

Some men only look at porn a handful of times a year. They can go months and months between visits, potentially even years. These men are the ones who might look at it so little that their wives think that they never watch.

Many men don't have porn as a strong part of their sexual life. I know, because I have been that man.



Created2Write said:


> I would like to reiterate that porn is _not_ essential for a man to be fulfilled and happy and healthy. It's honorable for a man to discipline himself against something that causes his wife pain, especially if that woman meets his sexual needs.


Porn doesn't have to be "essential" to any man's happiness. But still the VAST majority of men in the 21st century fold it into their sex life.

And even if your man doesn't watch physical porn, he's likely got a rich fantasy life, which is nothing more than mental porn, an can actually be far more explicit. You never know how many people your man has slept with in his head.



Created2Write said:


> Also, I don't buy into the crap that "all men must look at porn" any more than I think that all women must read romance novels.


"All men" don't look at porn. But "most" sure do. Every single statistic bares this out, and even if they didn't, any honest man will tell you.

That's why I said "unicorn". Finding a man who:

- Never watches porn
- Will never watch porn for his entire life
- Will not fantasize ever about other women

Is a unicorn indeed.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

All of you Dan Savage fans out there will remember the advice he gives his porn-negative female callers (and let's face it - they're all women).

For those women, good relationships are based on the principle that their man pretends that he doesn't view porn and his woman pretends to believe him.


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> He has slipped up once or twice and fully admitted it, and it _did_ hurt me. I know it's difficult for men to understand why some women feel so hurt over porn; you see it as nothing more than stimulation, *but we really do wonder why you have to seek out the images of other women to be stimulated.* Like it or not, it implies that there's something insufficient about us. Yet you wonder why we have body image issues? And if you don't have to us it, why do it? Viewing porn implies to us that we simply aren't enough to meet your needs, whether you think that or not, whether you intend for that to be implied or not.


Sorry, to pick this out but you're exactly describing where my relationship 'issues' (it's really not that big anymore luckily) stem from. I know I don't need porn to masturbate (as in actual, digital porn on a screen). I can do fine without... but when I'm doing that I still have to fantasize about something. The wall is just not going to do that for me. I fantasize about my girlfriend sometimes, but every single time? I also think about sex when I'm not masturbating. In fact that happens a lot. Do you have any idea how much effort it would take to completely retrain my brain to stop these things from happening? I've clearly drawn a limit for myself there - I'm not going to play the mental police officer in my own mind. Been there, done that - it's an extremely confining and depressing way of life IMO.

Going on from there, I essentially still have 'porn' in my life. Even though it does not physically exist. Is your husband that dedicated that he has managed to do this? Or do you simply don't care about what's going on in his mind? My girlfriend has already agreed that she doesn't mind if I fantasize, heck she does it herself. But for me that's a glaring and appaling inconsistency in her problems with my love for porn. It's okay if you do it mentally but not if it's on a screen? 

I'm very curious what you and your husbands take on this issue are. I've been struggling with the apparent contradiction for quite a while and it's probably the most important reason I spend time on this board.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

Ok after reading all the posts, i have to admit I am a bit conflicted on the topic. Personally, I have been guilty of feeling insecure when my husband watches porn. And as i have matured i have come to accept some of the natural aspects of his behavior. However, he has made concessions/compromises to keep me happy and as a result, i can be more accepting of some of the typical "male" behavior that has been so clearly stated in these posts.

Here is where i still have questions though:

As stated by other posts, porn is not necessary for masturbation. So Question #1: If a spouse is clearly uncomfortable with the use of porn by his/her partner, is it reasonable to ask that the partner refrain from using porn?

This next question goes to the post quoting something like "best to pretend that he doesn't view porn, best to pretend you believe him". I'm not so good at pretending. If you commit to something, I expect that you meet that commitment People do slip, so i can be forgiving, but as with everything there are limits. 
So Question #2: If a partner agrees to the limits above, and is caught breaking that commitment, is it then wrong to be upset? 

I suppose that for those who believe it's unreasonable to ask in the first place, it's unreasonable to expect that men can stick to their agreement, because the agreement was doomed to fail. But seriously then, is there no self control? 

I know this analogy is not exactly to the point but . . . my H is totally against me smoking cigarettes. When we met, i engaged in this habit, and he always made how he felt known. I quit, not for me, but because really if he feels that strongly about something, what's the deal? (and no doubt i get a huge personal benefit). It wasn't easy, and there were some arguments. Smoking is an addiction like any other. But in the end, I feel you have to be willing to sacrifice and control some individual "urges" in a marriage. 

OP think about this before you and your fiance make sign that marriage contract. Perhaps its not about what is right or wrong, but that both partners find someone who value the others needs and expectations.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Well, no. Because he has watched porn, and he even "slipped up" during the marriage. If he's "slipped up" before, it denotes on some level that he's attracted to porn, and could potentially "slip up" again. So that puts him in the 99% category.


Okay, fine. At any rate, he doesn't agree with it and he does his best to avoid it. Whether he's attracted to it or not is irrelevant. Being attracted to something doesn't make that thing right or acceptable, and I'm proud that I have a man with the self-discipline to actively avoid watching other people have sex.



> It needs to be reiterated that talking about men and porn is not suggesting regular usage, or addiction. These conversations tend to swing far too easily to the extremes.
> 
> Some men only look at porn a handful of times a year. They can go months and months between visits, potentially even years. These men are the ones who might look at it so little that their wives think that they never watch.


Am I supposed to be paranoid now? 



> Many men don't have porn as a strong part of their sexual life. I know, because I have been that man.
> 
> Porn doesn't have to be "essential" to any man's happiness. But still the VAST majority of men in the 21st century fold it into their sex life.
> 
> And even if your man doesn't watch physical porn, he's likely got a rich fantasy life, which is nothing more than mental porn, an can actually be far more explicit. You never know how many people your man has slept with in his head.


So I am supposed to be paranoid. 

You know, not every man on this earth is obsessed with other women. Not every man on this earth believes in lusting over other women. I like to believe that my husband reserves his sexual thoughts to me and only me. Call me naive if you like, but it's how we live. I don't fantasize about other men, he doesn't fantasize about other women. Unless he's lying, of course, and I really see no purpose in taking your word above his.



> "All men" don't look at porn. But "most" sure do. Every single statistic bares this out, and even if they didn't, any honest man will tell you.
> 
> That's why I said "unicorn". Finding a man who:
> 
> ...


My husband was eighteen when he first looked up porn, and he turned it off after two minutes. We're weren't together. Since being married, he looked up inappropriate pictures _once_, and was remorseful. We agreed on porn before we married, both of us believing that it caused more harm than good. Neither of us fantasizes about other people because we believe in exclusivity in marriage.

What you and others do in your marriages is one thing, but it does not define my marriage. What the "majority" of men supposedly do does not define what my husband does.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

Open up now let it all go said:


> Sorry, to pick this out but you're exactly describing where my relationship 'issues' (it's really not that big anymore luckily) stem from. I know I don't need porn to masturbate (as in actual, digital porn on a screen). I can do fine without... but when I'm doing that I still have to fantasize about something. The wall is just not going to do that for me. I fantasize about my girlfriend sometimes, but every single time? I also think about sex when I'm not masturbating. In fact that happens a lot. Do you have any idea how much effort it would take to completely retrain my brain to stop these things from happening? I've clearly drawn a limit for myself there - I'm not going to play the mental police officer in my own mind. Been there, done that - it's an extremely confining and depressing way of life IMO.
> 
> Going on from there, I essentially still have 'porn' in my life. Even though it does not physically exist. Is your husband that dedicated that he has managed to do this? Or do you simply don't care about what's going on in his mind? My girlfriend has already agreed that she doesn't mind if I fantasize, heck she does it herself. But for me that's a glaring and appaling inconsistency in her problems with my love for porn. It's okay if you do it mentally but not if it's on a screen?
> 
> I'm very curious what you and your husbands take on this issue are. I've been struggling with the apparent contradiction for quite a while and it's probably the most important reason I spend time on this board.


Your perspective is helpful. I can totally see your logic here. But i also see that you have made a commitment to your girlfriend, albeit one you are struggling with. So to you particularly i will ask, IF your GF satisfies you sexually, if you can both enjoy sex and intimacy with eachother, is it so wrong of her to ask that you sacrifice this need? While totally understanding that her request is based on something irrational but nevertheless present.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

The thing is, no matter how open, available and easy your wife is, rubbing one out with the iPhone is easier. And sometimes a man just doesn't want to put in the effort. No matter how available the wife is.


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## Playthang (Dec 3, 2012)

For those women, good relationships are based on the principle that their man pretends that he doesn't view porn and his woman pretends to believe him.[/QUOTE]

The only men not looking at porn are Monks.

Porn is accessible to everyone, anywhere, anytime. I have never tried to fool myself into thinking my man is not going to watch it because frankly if he wants to rub one off while fantasizing about some girl he "sees" on the screen so be it. Better than going outside of our marriage. 
And I don't want to hear about how masturbating to a video is cheating. Because its NOT!! 
And are women really saying they've never thought about someone else while masturbating or having sex with their mate?


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## ankh (Oct 14, 2012)

This could be hypothetical or true but what if one can say That pleasing your girlfriend about your masturbation is based on her knowledge of what you do what if your masturbation was kept private and you can enjoy it and not bother her with the fact that she knows? Isn't the issue that she knows you're masturbating and that somehow in her mind detracts from your love and devotion to her what if she didn't know?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Open up now let it all go said:


> Sorry, to pick this out but you're exactly describing where my relationship 'issues' (it's really not that big anymore luckily) stem from. I know I don't need porn to masturbate (as in actual, digital porn on a screen). I can do fine without... but when I'm doing that I still have to fantasize about something. The wall is just not going to do that for me. I fantasize about my girlfriend sometimes, but every single time? I also think about sex when I'm not masturbating. In fact that happens a lot. Do you have any idea how much effort it would take to completely retrain my brain to stop these things from happening? I've clearly drawn a limit for myself there - I'm not going to play the mental police officer in my own mind. Been there, done that - it's an extremely confining and depressing way of life IMO.
> 
> Going on from there, I essentially still have 'porn' in my life. Even though it does not physically exist. Is your husband that dedicated that he has managed to do this? Or do you simply don't care about what's going on in his mind?


Well, I'm not a mind reader so I can't monitor his thoughts 24/7. He tells me that he doesn't fantasize about other women. He admits that it's difficult, but he says that he wants me to be the only women he fantasizes about. We do plenty of things to satisfy his visual cravings. We've filmed ourselves during sex, he's taken plenty of sexual pictures of me that he keeps on his phone, and I often send him pictures of myself as well. I'm not ignorant enough to think that he should go without any visual stimulation outside of the bedroom, or that he only masturbated when I'm around, so I provide him with a replacement to looking at other women. 



> My girlfriend has already agreed that she doesn't mind if I fantasize, heck she does it herself. But for me that's a glaring and appaling inconsistency in her problems with my love for porn. It's okay if you do it mentally but not if it's on a screen?


We're consistent. If I wouldn't be okay with him being physically in the room while another couple made love, then I'm not okay with him looking at it on a screen. If I don't want him looking at it, then I don't want him fantasizing about it. And likewise with me. I don't watch porn, nor do I read romance novels. He doesn't like the examples romance novels give of men, he thinks they're unrealistic(as do I), so I don't read them. 



> I'm very curious what you and your husbands take on this issue are. I've been struggling with the apparent contradiction for quite a while and it's probably the most important reason I spend time on this board.


We believe that it's, ultimately, dangerous to bring other people into the marriage emotionally or sexually, whether they're mere images on a screen or fictitious characters on the page. We both desire exclusivity. I don't want him fantasizing about other women, he doesn't want me fantasizing about other men.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Ina said:


> As stated by other posts, porn is not necessary for masturbation.


That's like saying seasonings and flavoring aren't necessary for eating food, and expecting somebody to promise to never season their food again.

But let me say this, because I have a very unique perspective on the matter.

I am one of the rare men who learned to masturbate without porn, and without fantasy. That is no longer the case, but it was for a very long time.

I was a rare demon. Any other male that I opened up about this looked at me like I was crazy.



Ina said:


> So Question #1: If a spouse is clearly uncomfortable with the use of porn by his/her partner, is it reasonable to ask that the partner refrain from using porn?


It's unreasonable because it's likely to be a rule that is broken.

You can ask, and he can promise. But the odds are well stacked against him keeping the promise, and you getting what you want.



Ina said:


> People do slip, so i can be forgiving, but as with everything there are limits.


You're not really in a position to have the power to "forgive" this. This line of thinking, and sense of entitlement, almost always backfires on women.



Ina said:


> I suppose that for those who believe it's unreasonable to ask in the first place, it's unreasonable to expect that men can stick to their agreement, because the agreement was doomed to fail.


You answered your question perfectly.



Ina said:


> But seriously then, is there no self control?


And this is where women fail to understand men.

It's not an issue of self control. It's an issue of you wanting to control us. If a man stops looking at porn because YOU want him to stop, then he will always fail.

The only way a man can stop looking at porn is if the impetus is generated from within, if it's something that's important for him to stop.

This is why it's called _self_-control. Giving up porn is no different than deciding to get in shape and eat healthy. You won't get much mileage if you start the journey for your spouse's sake. 

If your husband came to you and said "You're fat, you're out of shape, you need to eat healthy and work out, or there will be consequences", how far do you think that's going to get you on your weight loss journey?


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The thing is, no matter how open, available and easy your wife is, rubbing one out with the iPhone is easier. And sometimes a man just doesn't want to put in the effort. No matter how available the wife is.


Hmm, my perspective: that's a pretty low standard. May be your truth and that of many other men. I wonder with statements like that if men (who ascribe to the above) do not wonder why (their) women sometimes may not want to put in the effort either.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I put in the effort. Actually I put in the effort quite often. You've never had a lazy moment? I find that hard to believe.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Okay, fine. At any rate, he doesn't agree with it and he does his best to avoid it. Whether he's attracted to it or not is irrelevant. Being attracted to something doesn't make that thing right or acceptable, and I'm proud that I have a man with the self-discipline to actively avoid watching other people have sex.


Which means that your husband decided to give up porn for himself. That's a choice he's made, and not something that he's doing _for_ you. That makes all the difference in the world when it comes to this matter. He's much more likely to refrain if he's staying away from pornography for his own ethical/moral reasons.





Created2Write said:


> Am I supposed to be paranoid now? So I am supposed to be paranoid.


I have absolutely no idea why you would think I want you to be paranoid, but OK...



Created2Write said:


> You know, not every man on this earth is obsessed with other women. Not every man on this earth believes in lusting over other women.


Where did I say this was the case? You're starting to put words in my mouth, which is surprising because you're usually pretty level headed.



Created2Write said:


> I like to believe that my husband reserves his sexual thoughts to me and only me.


And you are free to believe that. If you believe, even in your husband's mind, that he never, ever thinks about other women sexually, and that brings you comfort, than you have no reason to challenge that believe. You're happy, I assume he's happy, so all is good.




Created2Write said:


> What you and others do in your marriages is one thing, but it does not define my marriage. What the "majority" of men supposedly do does not define what my husband does.


Never once in this entire conversation did I define what your husband is, or is not. The only information I used in the post you quoted was the actual information you shared.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Maybe for some men this is unrealistic, but for my husband and I things are much simpler when we keep our marriage and our sex life exclusive between us. We both have fantasies, and instead of ignoring them altogether, we do what we can satisfy those needs ourselves so that neither of us has to look to the internet, novels, or other people for satisfaction. 

Are we perfect? No. Has my husband slipped up once before? Yes. But he regretted it. Have I slipped up before and not put as much emphasis on our sex life as I should? Yes. But I also regret that, and I have admitted it and apologized to him. For us, porn is absolutely not an option in our marriage, and it was a _mutual_ decision, not me just seeking to control him.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I am one of the rare men who learned to masturbate without porn, and without fantasy. That is no longer the case, but it was for a very long time.
> 
> If your husband came to you and said "You're fat, you're out of shape, you need to eat healthy and work out, or there will be consequences", how far do you think that's going to get you on your weight loss journey?


I want to examine these two statements:

First statement: so it can be done, what was your impetus?

Second: It's all in the approach. My husband has always made it clear that it's important for him that i "don't let myself go". This was a clear expectation before marriage. And i can say to myself, he has to accept me even if i gain 300 pounds and stop caring about my appearance, but that would likely be unrealistic. So perhaps my being in shape is not important me, perhaps i hate to workout. My impetus is that i want to remain attractive to my husband (no doubt again, i have a personal benefit here). In turn, I feel more feminine and secure which leads to all sorts of other benefits, etc. So what if the fact that my husband is watching porn is a turn off for me? What then? Is that not enough of a motivator for a committed man?

As far as control goes, we all have a level of control with eachother in relationships. I have a problem with viewing sacrifice as submitting to the "control" of another.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I've been where your husband is, so I know it's possible. And I guarantee you that I am one of the very few men who will ever be able to give you this perceptive.

I had almost no fantasies for years, and when I did start indulging in fantasy it was almost exclusively surrounding my wife (then girlfriend). This was during our celibacy, and she just adored the fact that she was the central star in my fantasies. I too, at that time, loved that rare singularity. 

I was the guy who almost never looked at porn. I could go many months without looking at anything.

These things were fine, while they lasted. They were extremely rare to have happened as a very young man, and even rarer that this lasted for so long, even while I was voluntarily celibate.

So I know that this is possible, however unusual.

I also know that this can, and likely will, change. Sexuality shifts as time goes on, and working hard to suppress your natural sexual imagination (which your husband is doing, by your own admission) is a tough, tough job, and eventually the attempts to suppress his sexuality will likely crumble at your feet.

My question for you C2W is this; what will you do if your husband ever gets to the point where the flood gates of his sexuality open, he loses the struggle to make you the sole leading lead of his fantasy life, or he ever starts incorporating porn into his life?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Which means that your husband decided to give up porn for himself. That's a choice he's made, and not something that he's doing _for_ you. That makes all the difference in the world when it comes to this matter. He's much more likely to refrain if he's staying away from pornography for his own ethical/moral reasons.


I agree, but I also think it's naive to think I play no part in his choice. 



> I have absolutely no idea why you would think I want you to be paranoid, but OK...


When you say that the majority of men look at porn(as if you personally know the majority of men in the world), no matter how frequent, and that the wives just tend not to know, what kind of thoughts do you think that ignites? 



> Where did I say this was the case? You're starting to put words in my mouth, which is surprising because you're usually pretty level headed.


You're right, you didn't say that was the case. I apologize. My point is merely that some men genuine only want their wives to be their fantasy. At least my husband has told me that he doesn't care about other women, nor does he fantasize about them. 



> And you are free to believe that. If you believe, even in your husband's mind, that he never, ever thinks about other women sexually, and that brings you comfort, than you have no reason to challenge that believe. You're happy, I assume he's happy, so all is good.


Since that is what he tells me, yes, I believe it. Unless your now implying that he's lying just to make me happy. 



> Never once in this entire conversation did I define what your husband is, or is not. The only information I used in the post you quoted was the actual information you shared.


No, but you mention "the majority" of men very often, as if what they do defines the choices my husband makes. My husband and I are spiritual people, and we believe in restraint when it comes to things like emotional and sexual urges, and we practice that restraint actively. You may think it's naive of me to believe my husband when he says that I am the only woman he fantasizes about, but that's because you don't know me or my husband. 

I certainly don't think that he lives in a box. He notices attractive women, same as I notice attractive men. He is free to mention when a woman is attractive, same as I am free to mention when a man is. But that is a far cry from mentally fantasizing about them and playing out sexual acts in ones mind. He has me for that.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I put in the effort. Actually I put in the effort quite often. You've never had a lazy moment? I find that hard to believe.


I've had many lazy moments. I try not to throw my promises out the window when i do. Tis true this is not always achieved, so point taken.

I suppose that we all make promises to make the other happy at times, but if it's not "important" to us, we usually end up rationalizing why it's ok to break them. Just saying that doesn't always make it right and doesn't mean the other doesn't have the right to be upset about it either (if and when they find out).


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Ina said:


> I want to examine these two statements:
> 
> First statement: so it can be done, what was your impetus?


There was no impetus. I learned about masturbation from my childhood best friend as he described catching his big brother jerking off. He did the hand motion, and I went home, tried it, and to spectacular results. :rofl:

So for my formidable years I masturbated as a purely physical act. I just loved the feeling. I didn't even know it was "suppose" to be accompanied by fantasy.

But I was also a fat, sexually repressed, insecure, very religious kid. So there were likely some serious blocks going on that kept me detached from my sexual mind, and enabled me to enjoy masturbation from a purely sexual standpoint. But it was not a conscious decision.

But I did enjoy watching things like the late night Skinemax. I just never got into porn heavily as a teen because I was both too terrified to get caught, and had very limited access to it. By the time I was on my own, and could watch as much as I wanted, in my early 20's, it wasn't apart of my regular habits so it never hooked on.

At least not then. That has changed.




Ina said:


> So what if the fact that my husband is watching porn is a turn off for me? What then? Is that not enough of a motivator for a committed man?


Your man is comitted, porn or no porn.

This is another breakdown in how women and men don't see eye to eye.

Too many women look at porn usage as being about them, and a man's commitment to them. So you ask men to refrain from a very common activity based of your own view.

A man will never be able to commit to refraining from anything because of a woman's view. He can try, but he will eventually fail.

Women continue to get this all wrong because they continue to view men's actions as being centered around them. It's extremely egocentric, and only serves to drive men even further into the darkness. Most men don't stop when presented with this perspective, they just get better at covering their tracks.

The man who successfully refrains from porn, just like the person who successfully refrains from bad food choices, does so ultimately for themselves.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ina said:


> I've had many lazy moments. I try not to throw my promises out the window when i do. Tis true this is not always achieved, so point taken.
> 
> I suppose that we all make promises to make the other happy at times, but if it's not "important" to us, we usually end up rationalizing why it's ok to break them. Just saying that doesn't always make it right and doesn't mean the other doesn't have the right to be upset about it either (if and when they find out).


The only promise I've made is that if I'm sexless for any amount of time I promise I'll satisfy my needs with porn and masturbation. I will not be controlled by my wife's gold plated V.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

> My question for you C2W is this; what will you do if your husband ever gets to the point where the flood gates of his sexuality open, he loses the struggle to make you the sole leading lead of his fantasy life, or he ever starts incorporating porn into his life?


What your experience was is not going to be what other men experience. Just because you changed doesn't mean my husband will. Moreover, we _all_ have control over our urges. Just because our sexual drive increases doesn't mean we're suddenly incapable of controlling what we do and what we see. 

I also can't answer your question, because you imply that this inability to remain sexually exclusive to me is somehow unnatural or impossible. I disagree with that entirely. I believe in my husband and his abilities, and I believe in the power of self-control. If someone genuinely doesn't want to view porn or fantasize about other women, he won't.

If porn became a temptation, I would stand by him and insist on marriage counciling. I would have faith in his ability to resist what he believes is wrong. I mean, this isn't just a matter of him resisting porn for the sake of resisting it; he doesn't believe it's moral to indulge in. Just because a family is poor, doesn't mean that they will stoop to theft if they believe it's immoral.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

samatedge wrote:

_"My opinion is men dont take porn seriously enough. There is an epidemic of marriages falling apart because men AND women are taking care of there own needs outside the marriage. "_


Epidemic? What's your source?

I suspect there's a causation issue here in any event. In other words, other issues and incompatibilities result in people "taking care of needs outside the marriage."


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

LOL. I don't think it's egocentric to expect exclusivity in marriage. My husband expects it from me, and since we're married, I think that is his right. No decision in marriage can be made without effecting the other person in some way, small or big, good or bad.

If I were at a friends house, and she had her SO over and they started having sex in front of me, my husband would be incredibly uncomfortable to know that I stayed and watched. So there really is no difference between that and watching strangers have sex on the computer screen. At least, that is how we see it. 

Why would either of us _need_ to seek that out when we could wait a few hours until we're together at the end of the day? When I'm too tired, or when he is but he still wants a release, he often masturbates while fondling me. And again, he has many pictures of me and even some videos of us to satisfy him when he needs something in the middle of the day. I love it when he tells me that he relieved himself by watching our video. We see absolutely no use for porn in our marriage, and that is a choice we made together.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> Epidemic? What's your source?
> 
> I suspect there's a causation issue here in any event. In other words, other issues and incompatibilities result in people "taking care of needs outside the marriage."


My biggest mistake was keeping porn and masturbation secret. The moment my wife found out that she wasn't my only option, we went from once every 5 weeks to 4 times a week. We were nearly sexless for 10 years before that.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> When you say that the majority of men look at porn(as if you personally know the majority of men in the world),


So if you told me that the majority of women in the world enjoy having sex with men, and I threw something like this back at you, that you don't personally know the majority of women in the world, how would you respond?



Created2Write said:


> no matter how frequent, and that the wives just tend not to know, what kind of thoughts do you think that ignites?


I am not responsible for the thoughts ignited in your head. Your thoughts are solely your responsibility, not mine, or anyone else's.

All I can tell you is that never once have I intended to make you "paranoid".




Created2Write said:


> You're right, you didn't say that was the case. I apologize. My point is merely that some men genuine only want their wives to be their fantasy. At least my husband has told me that he doesn't care about other women, nor does he fantasize about them.


Which is a contradiction. On one hand you keep saying that your husband only has eyes for you, and that he "doesn't care" about other women. Fine, well, and good.

However when you also say that he has looked up "inappropriate pictures", even if only once or twice, what do you think that signifies? If he has zero interest in other women sexually, then why would he ever even be tempted to look, look, or feel remorseful?

You also said that he " admits that it's difficult" to not fantasize about other women, because he "wants" to make you the only woman of his fantasies.

Again, if your husband has no inclination to see women sexually, save you, then why is there any difficulty or struggle at all? 





Created2Write said:


> My husband and I are spiritual people, and we believe in restraint when it comes to things like emotional and sexual urges, and we practice that restraint actively.


That's well in good, as long as you realize that others are not less spiritual simply because they don't agree with your take on human sexuality.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Your man is comitted, porn or no porn.
> 
> This is another breakdown in how women and men don't see eye to eye.
> 
> ...


First, i hope you know i'm not picking on you. I genuinely want to understand your point of view. You are intelligent to understand we don't have to agree.

So to the above, would you hold the same opinion if we flip the genders?

A WOMAN will never be able to refrain from ANYTHING because of a MAN's view?

And I agree that we ultimately do things for ourselves, but i believe that how those who are important to us feel impacts our motivation and ultimate self benefit.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> LOL. I don't think it's egocentric to expect exclusivity in marriage.


Again, that was never said in my post. If you go back and read what I actually wrote, you'll see that nowhere did I suggest that it was egocentric to expect exclusivity.

I clearly said that a woman who assume that a man watching porn is about her, and about him feeling less committed to her specifically, is egocentric.

Because it is. Just because a woman get it into her mind that a man watching porn automatically means that he is less committed to her, or that it's about him being sexually unsatisfied, doesn't make it a reality for that man.

What if a woman enjoyed indulging in her favorite vibrator, and the husband decided that because she enjoys the sensation of a vibrator on her clitoral glans it automatically means that she is less committed to him, and that it means she no longer is satisfied with his penis, what would you say?

Because yes, it amazes me how men continue to be told that porn usage is about how they feel about their women, even as we tell you over, and over again that it usually has nothing to do with you.

And yet vibrator sells are at a record high, and you see very little women being made to feel guilty about that.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

These threads always remind me of two groups of people shouting at each other across a canyon. And the canyon is so wide that we can barely hear each other

Can a man swear off of porn entirely? Absolutely. My wife is extremely uncomfortable with porn and at my stage of life, I don't need its desensitizing effect.

But swearing off of porn does not change the nature of a person's arousal. That's pretty much hardwired into each and every one of us. For me, it doesn't change the fact that I'm an extremely visual person with almost total recall for images. 

Extremely visual people end up being Architects, engineers of all stripes, surveyors, map makers, etc. And guess what? These disciplines are predominately male. 

For a strongly visual person, what happens in the absence of porn is that milder forms of visual stimulation become much, much more powerful.

--And you cannot eliminate all forms of visual stimulation. Various cultures at various times have tried this (A good example today is the Middle East) and it just doesn't work


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Ina said:


> First, i hope you know i'm not picking on you. I genuinely want to understand your point of view. You are intelligent to understand we don't have to agree.



No, I don't feel that at all. And thank you for the compliment.



Ina said:


> So to the above, would you hold the same opinion if we flip the genders?
> 
> A WOMAN will never be able to refrain from ANYTHING because of a MAN's view?


Of course I hold the same opinion if the genders are switched. I do not believe that a woman is going to be able to cease doing anything solely because of a man's perspective, if she too doesn't share that perspective.



Ina said:


> And I agree that we ultimately do things for ourselves, but i believe that how those who are important to us feel impacts our motivation and ultimate self benefit.


Of course they do. But those are factors.

If I am a drug addict and I decide to get clean, my wife, my kids, my friends, the people I love, will all be factors. This is why interventions exist.

But ultimately I can not stay clean if I'm doing it for anybody else. No matter the outward factors, the impetus has to be about me wanting to be clean and sober for myself. For my own piece of mind, my own moral center, my own physical health, my own overall well being. 

If a woman comes to a man and says "Hey, I don't want you look at porn because I'm uncomfortable with it", and the man actually sees no implicit problem with pornography, and enjoys it, than he will *never *stay away.

He might hide it. 
He might cover it up.
He might pretend until she believes it.
When caught, he might beg "forgiveness", and make promises to never do it again.
He might somehow give up the physical porn, and bolster the mental porn.

But he will never stop watching it completely. The only shot he has at giving up porn is if he doesn't want to do it for himself. He has to see it as detrimental to his own vision of self, even if his wife's disapproval plays a factor in his decision.

Women running around and screaming and crowing about porn only teaches men to shut them out, and go deeper into the dark.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> My biggest mistake was keeping porn and masturbation secret. The moment my wife found out that she wasn't my only option, we went from once every 5 weeks to 4 times a week. We were nearly sexless for 10 years before that.


Again, just a question as i am trying to follow your logic:

Would you agree then that 1) she is still not your only option and so 2) her increase in drive was based on the flawed perception that by attempting to satisfy you sexually, she would be your only option and that 3) your wife's increase in libido has more to do with her insecurities and fear than it does with her personal enjoyment? In other words, she is doing it more for you than for herself?


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> These threads always remind me of two groups of people shouting at each other across a canyon. And the canyon is so wide that we can barely hear each other
> 
> Can a man swear off of porn entirely? Absolutely. My wife is extremely uncomfortable with porn and at my stage of life, I don't need its desensitizing effect.
> 
> ...



Another helpful perspective, thank you.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

jaquen said:


> No, I don't feel that at all. And thank you for the compliment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> So if you told me that the majority of women in the world enjoy having sex with men, and I threw something like this back at you, that you don't personally know the majority of women in the world, how would you respond?


Since I don't personally know the majority of women in the world, I would never presume to speak for them.



> I am not responsible for the thoughts ignited in your head. Your thoughts are solely your responsibility, not mine, or anyone else's.
> 
> All I can tell you is that never once have I intended to make you "paranoid".


Okay.



> Which is a contradiction. On one hand you keep saying that your husband only has eyes for you, and that he "doesn't care" about other women. Fine, well, and good.
> 
> However when you also say that he has looked up "inappropriate pictures", even if only once or twice, what do you think that signifies? If he has zero interest in other women sexually, then why would he ever even be tempted to look, look, or feel remorseful?


I think it signifies a man who isn't perfect. He has temptations, same as any other human being on the planet. He just chooses to ignore those temptations. That one time he didn't ignore the temptation was a mistake, but it doesn't change his morals or his beliefs, nor does it mean he doesn't have eyes only for me. I'm not ignorant enough to believe that he has no temptation.

Sexual urges are real, and I'm sure there are many things that could seem appealing at any given time. Those urges don't alter my husband's feelings for me. I have emotional urges as well, and it's sometimes tempting to flirt with other men. But that doesn't mean I actually flirt with them. And just because I'm tempted to flirt, doesn't mean my emotional urges are too strong to remain exclusive to my husband. 



> You also said that he " admits that it's difficult" to not fantasize about other women, because he "wants" to make you the only woman of his fantasies.
> 
> Again, if your husband has no inclination to see women sexually, save you, then why is there any difficulty or struggle at all?


So you think that, so long as a man is genuinely and entirely attracted and captivated by his wife, that there will never, ever be any temptation to fantasize? 

And you think women don't understand men...

My husband has a healthy sexual drive for a man his age. Being young, it's rather high. I'm really not so ignorant as to believe him free of temptation. We're all tempted to things. It's apart of our psychological make up. There are three parts to a human's cognitive structure; the Id contains all of our instinctual desires. The second part, the Ego, is what tries to appease the Id by figuring out a way to satisfy the instinctual desires. The third part is like our conscience, the Superego. It examines the solution that the Ego presented to evaluate whether the initial benefit will outweigh the long term consequences. This is overly simplistic, but anyway...

My husband has instinctual sexual desires(Id), and may feel that fantasizing or porn could relieve that desire(ego...which leads to temptation), but his Superego reminds him that he has a wife whom he loves and desires. He's reminded of how much he enjoys her and how much he would prefer her to some imaginary woman in his head, or some stranger on the screen, so he chooses to listen to the Superego and wait. Whether or not he listens to his Superego is his choice, and yeah, once he didn't. One mistake doesn't change who he is or what he believes.





That's well in good, as long as you realize that others are not less spiritual simply because they don't agree with your take on human sexuality.[/QUOTE]


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Is there really a dispute about whether a majority of men consume porn to one extent or another?

I suppose hypertechnically that's probably not accurate in light of the unavailability of porn to billions of men. But if we limit it to the populations of the countries of participants in this discussion? Is there really such a dispute?

That doesn't mean a majority _abuse _porn. Addiction is an issue as to many human activities.

In any event, I go back to the point that--in my opinion (disclaimer to avoid flames)--porn is more often than not a symptom, not a cause. For example, if you read the OP's posts here and in other threads, she says her fiance is a liar and a cheater who has broken many promises. Those facts, rather than his use of porn, are the red flags.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

The majority of men have high sex drives and are highly stimulated by porn (visuals). 

If your man does not care about sex, does not watch porn, does not get turned on by visuals, he is a statistical outlier.

So, if 100% of women hate their man watching porn, and only 10% of men do not care about watching porn, then 90% of women need to either learn to accept what a typical man is, or not get married.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

Where are all the men that are mad about their wives reading pornographic novels?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

jaquen said:


> On your part you seem like you've got some serious self esteem, or body image issues. You're reacting to the porn as though you're catching him cheating on you with another woman. You're getting devastated over some jacking off and some porn usage. Your mind set right now doesn't seem to be all that healthy.


At a guess, I'd say that this is what the OP's real issue is with her H watching porn:-



> _Just seems like he has no interest in me I always have to iniate sex and feel he is lazy in the bedroom..I even dresses up in his fav outfit one night when he cane home form work and finally after some coaxing we had sex.. _


No matter how confident a woman is, the above is bound to send the message that her partner prefers porn to having sex with her. She feels she's getting _cheated out of sex._


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> When you say that the majority of men look at porn(as if you personally know the majority of men in the world), no matter how frequent, and that the wives just tend not to know, what kind of thoughts do you think that ignites?


I don't know, acceptance of reality?

Because it IS reality for a majority of couples so overwhelming as to be almost inarguable fact. Maybe not for your man, though I'm going to guess that he knows that this is so important to you that he would be reluctant in the extreme to admit very often to fantasizing about another woman. 

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, and you'll never know because the proof is all in his head and there's no victim. If it never happens, good for you, you've got exactly what you want. If it does and he's kind enough to spare your feelings, you win too, even though the undertone from the rest of your comments indicates that you would find him to be a more flawed partner.



> You're right, you didn't say that was the case. I apologize. My point is merely that some men genuine only want their wives to be their fantasy. At least my husband has told me that he doesn't care about other women, nor does he fantasize about them.


I think we need to be careful defining our terms here. Fantasies can happen in a few milliseconds and are largely beyond our control. Dwelling on them, embellishing them, rolling them over in our heads and spending a lot of time giving them depth and texture is not.

But seeing that hottie in a bikini on in-line skates on the boardwalk can have the "Wow! I wonder what that's like moment!" hit you before you even have a chance to shut it down. But long enough for you to linger on it before putting it out of your head.



> Since that is what he tells me, yes, I believe it. Unless your now implying that he's lying just to make me happy.


He might be. Would it be that terrible? It's the whitest kind of lie that brings the most good - it's clearly VERY important to you. I applaud him either way.



> No, but you mention "the majority" of men very often, as if what they do defines the choices my husband makes.


No, but it does define the categories into which he is vastly more likely to land. The man you've described here IS a unicorn. Lucky you.



> My husband and I are spiritual people, and we believe in restraint when it comes to things like emotional and sexual urges, and we practice that restraint actively. You may think it's naive of me to believe my husband when he says that I am the only woman he fantasizes about, but that's because you don't know me or my husband.


I am not a spiritual person in the remotest sense, and I have a sexually repressed wife to boot, and she's still the object of more of my fantasies by at least an order of magnitude than any other target. I don't find it at all surprising that you would be his primary fantasy. I would find it somewhat surprising, though not impossible, for you to be his only fantasy.

The only other comment I would make is the unmistakable undertone of superiority in your opinion here. As if the rest of us who don't live up to your husband's ideal are careless or somehow less evolved spouses. 

I'm sincerely glad for you that you've found what you're looking for. I'm also glad for my wife, who's had a quarter century of relatively happily married life, a family, stability, and income, all with a man who once in a while, only in the back of his own mind, and never as a replacement for actual intimacy with her, fantasizes about another woman.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> She feels she's getting _cheated out of sex._


Very insightful distinction Cosmos.

As usual. :smthumbup:


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Again, that was never said in my post. If you go back and read what I actually wrote, you'll see that nowhere did I suggest that it was egocentric to expect exclusivity.
> 
> I clearly said that a woman who assume that a man watching porn is about her, and about him feeling less committed to her specifically, is egocentric.
> 
> Because it is. Just because a woman get it into her mind that a man watching porn automatically means that he is less committed to her, or that it's about him being sexually unsatisfied, doesn't make it a reality for that man.


Granted. That makes more sense, even if it does sound a bit selfish...

If a man chooses to disregard his wife's requests, particularly about something that makes her uncomfortable, then it _is_ including her at that point. It has gone beyond his desires.



> What if a woman enjoyed indulging in her favorite vibrator, and the husband decided that because she enjoys the sensation of a vibrator on her clitoral glans it automatically means that she is less committed to him, and that it means she no longer is satisfied with his penis, what would you say?


I would say that she should reevaluate why she uses the vibrator. Her reasons for using it may be what he suspects, or they might not. Regardless of what she finds, if it really bothered her husband, then she should put how he feels above her desire to use the vibrator. Vibrators aren't important. She could try asking her husband if they could use it together, but if it genuinely made him feel insufficient, that should come far before her selfish need to use the vibrator.



> Because yes, it amazes me how men continue to be told that porn usage is about how they feel about their women, even as we tell you over, and over again that it usually has nothing to do with you.


Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with us. Only you can know for sure why you watch it. But it _looks_ like it has to do with us, and so we feel that it does. At least, I felt that way when my husband admitted to what he had done. He said he got absolutely no gratification, as what he saw couldn't compete with my body. But still, it made me wonder...if I am really so satisfying, why would he look elsewhere for visual stimulation? 

Moreover, intentions really have very little to do with marriage. Intentions are invisible, and we can't see the intentions of our spouse. It's the actions that matter, and if a specific action hurts our spouse, we should put that before ourselves. 



> And yet vibrator sells are at a record high, and you see very little women being made to feel guilty about that.


Well, using a vibrator alone doesn't mean the woman is watching porn or fantasizing about a man other than her husband. I wouldn't approve of using the vibrator if either of those things were involved. I rarely masturbate, but when I do, my husband just grins. And when I masturbate I either look at pics I have of my husband, or I think about him and us together. 

Honestly, if a woman is fine with porn, then that is her decision. What she and her husband do in their marriage is none of my business. But when a wife is uncomfortable with it, her emotional well being should be more important. I think this about various sexual actions and positions as well. Neither spouse should be made to feel that they must accept something they're uncomfortable with, no matter how common that action or position may be.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm hoping these examinations were helpful in mimicking how the OP should examine her current situation. 

Based on all the arguments, including my own, i would tell the OP that she was right to feel angry. Not because she entitled, not because his watching porn is abnormal or wrong, but because she felt betrayed, his initial apology was insincere, and she has a right to her feelings.

I doubt we are going to solve the big porn controversy, we all have different views, and i see good arguments on all ends. But if we follow both Jaquen's and CW2's arguments i would say that the OP's husband is not likely going to ever be of the opinion that he should refrain from using porn. And since the porn is an issue for the OP as well as her partner's honesty, she may be better off finding a partner who shares the same views and priorities.

A marriage develops enough issues even when it's with two people of shared values and beliefs. People change over time, making things more difficult. I agree that what the OP is talking about here is just the surface, and it would do her good to examine if given the distrust and anger already evident, whether this is what she wants for her future.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> So you think that, so long as a man is genuinely and entirely attracted and captivated by his wife, that there will never, ever be any temptation to fantasize?
> 
> And you think women don't understand men...


Actually no I don't think that. You've read more than enough of my posts on TAM to know that I don't think like that, but OK.

Ultimately you actually made my point perfectly.

The language you've used, up until this very honest, and insightful post, painted your husband as a rare unicorn who has "no interest" in other women, or porn. You made the decision to paint him as a man who just doesn't see other women sexually, naturally hones his sexuality exclusively around you, and is nothing like other men.

If you had started off with the perspective that your husband was human, like all other men, but has made the personal decision to refrain from porn for his own reasons, and that he actively fights his natural temptations, like all human beings, then this conversation would never have unfolded.

You are only now, in this post, actually providing a remotely realistic, and understandable, perspective on your husband and your marriage.

This post suggests reality. The other posts fantasy.

You sound like a completely in touch, aware woman in this post. The others a naive girl who thinks her husband's mind, and inclination, is filled with nothing but her, with ease.




Created2Write said:


> My husband has a healthy sexual drive for a man his age. Being young, it's rather high. I'm really not so ignorant as to believe him free of temptation. We're all tempted to things. It's apart of our psychological make up. There are three parts to a human's cognitive structure; the Id contains all of our instinctual desires. The second part, the Ego, is what tries to appease the Id by figuring out a way to satisfy the instinctual desires. The third part is like our conscience, the Superego. It examines the solution that the Ego presented to evaluate whether the initial benefit will outweigh the long term consequences. This is overly simplistic, but anyway...
> 
> My husband has instinctual sexual desires(Id), and may feel that fantasizing or porn could relieve that desire(ego...which leads to temptation), but his Superego reminds him that he has a wife whom he loves and desires. He's reminded of how much he enjoys her and how much he would prefer her to some imaginary woman in his head, or some stranger on the screen, so he chooses to listen to the Superego and wait. Whether or not he listens to his Superego is his choice, and yeah, once he didn't. One mistake doesn't change who he is or what he believes.


Yes I took my psych classes, and got my A's.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Ina said:


> I doubt we are going to solve the big porn controversy, we all have different views, and i see good arguments on all ends. But if we follow both Jaquen's and CW2's arguments i would say that the OP's husband is not likely going to ever be of the opinion that he should refrain from using porn. And since the porn is an issue for the OP as well as her partner's honesty, she may be better off finding a partner who shares the same views and priorities.


I think a large part of the discussion has been to attempt to make it clear that while she is welcome to try to find a partner who shares her priorities about porn, she may find the field so void of willing participants that it becomes a Hobson's choice.

Throwing away an otherwise perfectly good man who has motivation, good hygiene, a full head of hair, and who can cook over his occasional porn usage, in light of its ubiquity, is like throwing out a very large baby with the bathwater. 

It's a choice she's well within her rights to make, and one she may find herself regretting in the future.


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## Meal (Dec 11, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> So i was feelling really ill so my fiance is being all nice i wake up go downstairs and he is jacking off to porn...i get upset saying wtf and he says what is the big deal i was horney u were sick..so here is what i am angry about..he seems to not give a crap im ill and all he was concerned about was getting his pleasure no concern for me..am i wrong to be upset
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are not wrong to be upset. He is a pervert.
Porn does not exist in a healthy "bible based and covnent marriage"... Scripture states it very clearly and I assume you were married in a church.

BUT YOU SAID FIANCE, so that deal is a bust!

Go an find a bumper sticker for his car that says something such as "porn addict" and slap it on his car without him knowing it. He needs a slap to knock him out of his daze, or you can simply castrate him.

Think about if the shoe were turned. Wouldn't you expect him to throw the computer through the wall and rip out the walls if YOU were flicking your bean to some naked men videos?

I'd bring the house down if I was certain my wife was doing that.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Cletus said:


> I don't know, acceptance of reality?
> 
> Because it IS reality for a majority of couples so overwhelming as to be almost inarguable fact. Maybe not for your man, though I'm going to guess that he knows that this is so important to you that he would be reluctant in the extreme to admit very often to fantasizing about another woman.
> 
> Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, and you'll never know because the proof is all in his head and there's no victim. If it never happens, good for you, you've got exactly what you want. If it does and he's kind enough to spare your feelings, you win too, even though the undertone from the rest of your comments indicates that you would find him to be a more flawed partner.


We're all flawed partners as none of us is perfect. I would be disappointed though, yes.



> I think we need to be careful defining our terms here. Fantasies can happen in a few milliseconds and are largely beyond our control. Dwelling on them, embellishing them, rolling them over in our heads and spending a lot of time giving them depth and texture is not.


I completely agree. I'm sure that he has various sexual thoughts throughout the day that are uncontrollable. _That_ I do not believe is wrong. How can it be? The rolling it around, the embellishment, the playing out a scenario while jacking off..._that_ is what my husband chooses not to indulge.



> But seeing that hottie in a bikini on in-line skates on the boardwalk can have the "Wow! I wonder what that's like moment!" hit you before you even have a chance to shut it down. But long enough for you to linger on it before putting it out of your head.


I think we all experience that. It's unrealistic to expect him to never notice an attractive woman. 



> He might be. Would it be that terrible? It's the whitest kind of lie that brings the most good - it's clearly VERY important to you. I applaud him either way.


Terrible is a strong word. I would be disappointed though, yes. I white lie is still a white lie, and it doesn't bring any good if I know that what he says isn't true. Moreover, if a certain belief isn't his belief, I'd rather he be honest and tell me.

I have no reason to doubt what he says though, so I feel lucky.



> No, but it does define the categories into which he is vastly more likely to land. The man you've described here IS a unicorn. Lucky you.
> 
> I am not a spiritual person in the remotest sense, and I have a sexually repressed wife to boot, and she's still the object of more of my fantasies by at least an order of magnitude than any other target. I don't find it at all surprising that you would be his primary fantasy. I would find it somewhat surprising, though not impossible, for you to be his only fantasy.


I only have what he tells me. Again, I don't think he lives without temptation, but I believe in what he says.



> The only other comment I would make is the unmistakable undertone of superiority in your opinion here. As if the rest of us who don't live up to your husband's ideal are careless or somehow less evolved spouses.


If your spouses agree with your lifestyle choices or at least are comfortable with them, then I have no issue whatsoever what what others choose to do in their marriage. I apologize for any superiority detected. However, I did not care for the tone in other posts that porn is just a natural part of life, and we all should just accept it. I reject that intensely. If it's not a necessity to a healthy, happy life, then it isn't "natural". And if one spouse is uncomfortable with something, the other spouse should be understanding, imo.



> I'm sincerely glad for you that you've found what you're looking for. I'm also glad for my wife, who's had a quarter century of relatively happily married life, a family, stability, and income, all with a man who once in a while, only in the back of his own mind, and never as a replacement for actual intimacy with her, fantasizes about another woman.


Your life is your life, and I'm glad you have a wife who is happy with that. Not all women are, nor should they have to be. I am happy with my husband, and he is happy with me so I think we have it good.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I would say that she should reevaluate why she uses the vibrator. Her reasons for using it may be what he suspects, or they might not. Regardless of what she finds, if it really bothered her husband, then she should put how he feels above her desire to use the vibrator. Vibrators aren't important. She could try asking her husband if they could use it together, but if it genuinely made him feel insufficient, that should come far before her selfish need to use the vibrator...
> 
> It's the actions that matter, and if a specific action hurts our spouse, we should put that before ourselves.


Which represents another fundamental divide for us on the topic.

I don't believe marriage should be about one person expressing discomfort, and another person folding into that discomfort.

I believe real communication is talking about the discomfort, getting to the root, and learning to adapt. I can't, and won't, give up any and every old thing that makes my wife uncomfortable. She feels the same. We try and reach consensus together, and if we can not, we learn to accept our differences, and our disagreements.

But that's just our marriage.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

Cletus said:


> I think a large part of the discussion has been to attempt to make it clear that while she is welcome to try to find a partner who shares her priorities about porn, she may find the field so void of willing participants that it becomes a Hobson's choice.
> 
> Throwing away an otherwise perfectly good man who has motivation, good hygiene, a full head of hair, and who can cook over his occasional porn usage, in light of its ubiquity, is like throwing out a very large baby with the bathwater.
> 
> It's a choice she's well within her rights to make, and one she may find herself regretting in the future.


I've seen many women be thrown out with the bathwater because the H was searching for that ubiquitous quality. In the end, we all have to make our priorities and each of us know what we can live with and what we are not willing to live without. I simply say go in there with eyes open and make your views and expectations clear. Our expectations are sometimes not reasonable or rational, but if you are going to be miserable in a marriage, perhaps its best to work out your issues first. Otherwise, you'll be in TAM asking for lots of help


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Meal said:


> You are not wrong to be upset. He is a pervert.
> Porn does not exist in a healthy "bible based and covnent marriage"... Scripture states it very clearly and I assume you were married in a church.
> 
> BUT YOU SAID FIANCE, so that deal is a bust!
> ...


Bible based? Oh brother.... I'm pretty sure that cohabitating out of wedlock is against scripture too. If you're looking for a convincing argument, the bible isn't going to cut it.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> samatedge wrote:
> 
> _"My opinion is men dont take porn seriously enough. There is an epidemic of marriages falling apart because men AND women are taking care of there own needs outside the marriage. "_
> 
> ...



I suppose the source would be the +50% failure rate of first time marriages. Not all those are for WS, but usually there is a break down in the sexual arena playing somewhere in the failure.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Meal said:


> You are not wrong to be upset. He is a pervert.
> Porn does not exist in a healthy "bible based and covnent marriage"... Scripture states it very clearly and I assume you were married in a church.
> 
> BUT YOU SAID FIANCE, so that deal is a bust!
> ...


Exhibit A on how not to handle this situation.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Which represents another fundamental divide for us on the topic.
> 
> I don't believe marriage should be about one person expressing discomfort, and another person folding into that discomfort.
> 
> ...


It strikes me that nearly all the discomfort stems from a simple lack of understanding of the other person's sexual nature. Is the solution to cage that person's sexuality so that their spouse may remain comfortable. 

The vibrator analogy was perfect. Men are expected to tolerate substitutes for their own penis in the actual bedroom, during actual sex. Men just have to get comfortable. Be happy you are getting anything at all. After all only 30% of women can reach orgasm using a human penis, or so they tell us.
But a man looking at erotic material on his own time is out of bounds.


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## Terry_CO (Oct 23, 2012)

Meal said:


> ..."bible based and covnent marriage"... Scripture states it very clearly and I assume you were married in a church.


[SARCASM]Good point. We all know what resolute and reliable moral compasses people of the church are. [/SARCASM]


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

What you and your wife do, jaquen, is entirely up to you. I don't have to live with the pros and cons of your choices, you do. But not all things work the same for all people. My husband is, clearly, not like you, and I really just didn't appreciate the tone of your post which implied that either he isn't like you because he's afraid of angering me, or that he is like you, I just don't know it yet.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Ina said:


> Our expectations are sometimes not reasonable or rational, but if you are going to be miserable in a marriage, perhaps its best to work out your issues first. Otherwise, you'll be in TAM asking for lots of help


No argument here. An important part of working out issues is to understand the difference between the reasonable and the unreasonable. Maybe we can't decide how we feel at a gut level about something, but we can certainly make rational judgments on what to do with our displeasure. 

If you enter a relationship thinking that you will become the one and only remotely sexual being to your new found love, forever and all time, you are statistically likely to be disappointed. Helping you decide how much you want to cling to this priority should be a full understanding of the unlikeliness of it actually playing out. 

Put me in the column of agreeing with you as long as all parties have FULLY informed consent.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Actually no I don't think that. You've read more than enough of my posts on TAM to know that I don't think like that, but OK.
> 
> Ultimately you actually made my point perfectly.
> 
> ...


It wasn't my intention to paint my husband as anything. I never said he was perfect, nor implied it. If that's what you got from my posts, then I'd say you didn't read them very carefully.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

east2west said:


> It strikes me that nearly all the discomfort stems from a simple lack of understanding of the other person's sexual nature. Is the solution to cage that person's sexuality so that their spouse may remain comfortable.
> 
> The vibrator analogy was perfect. Men are expected to tolerate substitutes for their own penis in the actual bedroom, during actual sex. Men just have to get comfortable. Be happy you are getting anything at all. After all only 30% of women can reach orgasm using a human penis, or so they tell us.
> But a man looking at erotic material on his own time is out of bounds.


I don't have a vibrator. Never have. I don't see anything wrong with it, but my husband has an issue with it. Sees it as competition . . . regardless of whether his belief is true or rational, it is his belief and he is the man i married. So i do "fold" to his discomfort. True, it's not very important to me to begin with. I do read erotica though and i enjoy it (there goes pandora's box). However, my husband has no issue with this . . . so now the question is what would i do if he did. Let me munch on that.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> So after a long night of no talking (took the advice and said nothing) ..I get up this morning and he had my lunch made..so I get to work open it up and he has a note written this is what he says :I wnated to apologize for last night. I was so embarrased about everything. The reason I was angry was because you sneaked downstairs. I usually hera you when you walk but I didnt yesterday. Thats why I was so upset. It was nothing just some stupid porn..Im sooooo sorry Please know that I find you the sexiest woman on earth. I would never cheat on you. know it looked bad but its really just some stupid porn Please forgive me"
> 
> Okay I can forgive but what bugs me is he said I sneaked down which I didnt and second is he hiding anything else then if he waits to hera me walking around....I dont care about the pron well maybe a little but I can get over that...
> 
> What should I do?



Don't grow this into some incermountable issue. It was porn. He was embarrassed to get caught. Chances are he jerks one out a lot and listens for you. Doesn't mean he is doing anything beyond that. I use to masterbate in front of my wife if she didn't want sex. She enjoyed watching me. I enjoyed not having to hide something that I have done for years.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Meal said:


> You are not wrong to be upset. He is a pervert.
> Porn does not exist in a healthy "bible based and covnent marriage"... Scripture states it very clearly and I assume you were married in a church.
> 
> BUT YOU SAID FIANCE, so that deal is a bust!
> ...


Somehow I doubt that "bringing down the house" would illicit any kind of positive response from either a man or a woman. No one wants to be made to feel like a child, whether they're in the wrong or not. And being angry and whiny and throwing a fit probably won't make your spouse even _want_ to patch things up. 

While I believe in the Bible, I certainly would never act this way, even if I discovered my husband was a closet porn addict.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> It wasn't my intention to paint my husband as anything. I never said he was perfect, nor implied it. If that's what you got from my posts, then I'd say you didn't read them very carefully.


I'm very certain that I am not the only person who walked away from your earlier posts with that impression.

Especially since you flat out called him a "unicorn".

But sure.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> What you and your wife do, jaquen, is entirely up to you. I don't have to live with the pros and cons of your choices, you do. But not all things work the same for all people. My husband is, clearly, not like you, and I really just didn't appreciate the tone of your post which implied that either he isn't like you because he's afraid of angering me, or that he is like you, I just don't know it yet.


You are reading a whole lot into the "tone" of my posts that were never there.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Also, I'd like to address the "folding" comment. 

I vowed to love, honor and cherish my husband. Why would I partake of something that made him feel unloved? It's not about "folding" to his whims for me, it's about doing what I need to do to maintain trust, respect, and love in our relationship. And if the thing he is uncomfortable with isn't a vital part of my mental, emotional, financial or physical health, then why hold onto it? 

Example totally nonsexual: I love books. Especially British novels; Jane Austen, the Bronte sisters, Shakespeare, ****ens, etc. I have a lot of them, and when I have money to spend, it's almost always on books unless I need something else more essential. If, at some point, my husband wanted me to stop buying them because he thought they were taking up my time and my focus, I would do it. My love for books isn't wrong. In fact, I'd say it's healthy. But even healthy things, taken to an extreme, can be unhealthy. Books are my passion, and I would gladly give them all away if they _ever_ effected my marriage in a negative way. 

Maybe that's just how my husband and I work, but there's nothing more important than our relationship. And we always put the other person above our own desires, unless it's something we really can't live without.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Double post.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> I'm very certain that I am not the only person who walked away from your earlier posts with that impression.
> 
> Especially since you flat out called him a "unicorn".
> 
> But sure.


LOL. You used the word before I did. 

Whatevs. It's not that important. _If_ I misrepresented things, I apologize.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Example totally nonsexual: I love books. Especially British novels; Jane Austen, the Bronte sisters, Shakespeare, ****ens, etc. I have a lot of them, and when I have money to spend, it's almost always on books unless I need something else more essential. If, at some point, my husband wanted me to stop buying them because he thought they were taking up my time and my focus, I would do it. My love for books isn't wrong. In fact, I'd say it's healthy. But even healthy things, taken to an extreme, can be unhealthy. Books are my passion, and I would gladly give them all away if they _ever_ effected my marriage in a negative way.


Are you suggesting that you'd give up *reading* if your husband decided he didn't want you to do it?


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

Ina said:


> I don't have a vibrator. Never have. I don't see anything wrong with it, but my husband has an issue with it. Sees it as competition . . . regardless of whether his belief is true or rational, it is his belief and he is the man i married. So i do "fold" to his discomfort. True, it's not very important to me to begin with. I do read erotica though and i enjoy it (there goes pandora's box). However, my husband has no issue with this . . . so now the question is what would i do if he did. Let me munch on that.


Ah, erotica, aka "The type of porn that *I* like".

I would also like to see you munch on the question of WHY your husband doesn't have a problem with your use of "erotica" while you obviously have a problem with him doing exactly the same thing.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Are you suggesting that you'd give up *reading* if your husband decided he didn't want you to do it?


Sorry, should have clarified. 

No, I wouldn't give up reading. Reading is essential for continual mental health. I would, however, give up _how much_ I read if it effected my husband negatively. 

My point is that, in my opinion, marriage isn't just about two independent people living a life together; it's about both of them living out their vows, and making personal sacrifices when necessary. Not every marriage is going to require the same sacrifices, but that the spouse is willing to make such a sacrifice is important, imo.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> No, I wouldn't give up reading. Reading is essential for continual mental health. I would, however, give up _how much_ I read if it effected my husband negatively.
> 
> My point is that, in my opinion, marriage isn't just about two independent people living a life together; it's about both of them living out their vows, and making personal sacrifices when necessary. Not every marriage is going to require the same sacrifices, but that the spouse is willing to make such a sacrifice is important, imo.


1000% agree.

Glad we're back on the same page. I'm use to being on the same page with you!


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

east2west said:


> It strikes me that nearly all the discomfort stems from a simple lack of understanding of the other person's sexual nature. Is the solution to cage that person's sexuality so that their spouse may remain comfortable.
> 
> The vibrator analogy was perfect. Men are expected to tolerate substitutes for their own penis in the actual bedroom, during actual sex. Men just have to get comfortable. Be happy you are getting anything at all. After all only 30% of women can reach orgasm using a human penis, or so they tell us.
> But a man looking at erotic material on his own time is out of bounds.


Or if you want to broaden the scope a little bit, look at the sheer number of self-help books written for the purpose of helping men change who they are as people and become more "alpha", assertive, articulate, glib, wealthy, etc. just so their wives will love them again. 

--And if a man is insecure about his shortcomings in those areas, that's too damn bad.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> 1000% agree.
> 
> Glad we're back on the same page. I'm use to being on the same page with you!


I had to shake things up at some point. 

lol.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

CW2, i can't say I share your perspective. I couldn't give up my passion for the sake of my marriage. My passions are part of who i am, and there's a level here of needing to keep one's identity in a relationship. After all, my H fell in love with these aspects of who I am. I would not be obstinate either. I suppose i would have to determine what is it about my passions that distress my marriage and go from there. Find some balance between my needs and his discomfort. I wouldn't be dismissive either (ahem). But i can't go as far to say, I'd give it all up without a thought. I know what would follow is unhappiness on my end, which would eventually negatively impact my marriage. I suppose this is what these boys are trying to express. Porn is a "passion" for some of them (or most). Part of who they are as men. I kind of dig that my H is well very masculine, so i know i can't then fault him for being well very masculine. I'm not completely sold on this yet, the whole porn if part of who we are thing. I suppose i could go to my source (my H), but really, why rock the boat.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> Okay I caught him again this morning wtf is going on..we had awesome sex last night and as soon as I leave the house he is at it again ..now Im pissed


Men are wired differently, why don't you get involved when he is doing it. I use to use porn. but my SO got into watching me. Her needs were not as high as mine so she didn't mind. 

I think you are making more out of this than is necessary. You are trying to tie what happened in the past to what you currently are seeing. The 2 are not related and you need to quit tying these seperate events together.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

east2west said:


> Ah, erotica, aka "The type of porn that *I* like".
> 
> I would also like to see you munch on the question of WHY your husband doesn't have a problem with your use of "erotica" while you obviously have a problem with him doing exactly the same thing.


Hey Hey, if you read my posts, i never implicitly said i had a problem (present) with him watching porn. I said I've been guilty of being uncomfortable with it in the past. Now, I don't love the idea, but it's really not a problem in our marriage. If he does it, which it appears he likely does, I don't know about it. What I do know, is that he does listen to me and tries his best to make me happy. My questions are aimed at my attempt at growth. I'm not trying to challenge anyone but myself. 

And my husband doesn't mind because it flat out does not mean anything to him, doesn't make him feel insecure. It's a non-issue. In fact, he finds it beneficial . . . and I'll just leave that there.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Sorry, should have clarified.
> 
> No, I wouldn't give up reading. Reading is essential for continual mental health. I would, however, give up _how much_ I read if it effected my husband negatively.
> 
> My point is that, in my opinion, marriage isn't just about two independent people living a life together; it's about both of them living out their vows, and making personal sacrifices when necessary. Not every marriage is going to require the same sacrifices, but that the spouse is willing to make such a sacrifice is important, imo.


Okay then, now i'm with you.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Allowing your spouse to do something you don't like is the other side of the not doing something your spouse doesn't like coin. Neither is intrinsically more noble than the other. Both are necessary for happy, functioning relationships.

You have to decide this question hundreds if not thousands of times during a marriage. From which end to squeeze the toothpaste, to toilet seat up or down, to pornography use, to not cleaning your trash out of the car that you left overnight EVEN THOUGH YOU FREAKIN' KNOW IT DRIVES ME BANANAS!!!! 

It's all part of the grand negotiation. But sometimes you can't find agreement. Porn frequently seems to be one of those topics. Those are the questions where both spouses simply have to agree to be as respectful as possible. Husbands - Keep your porn to yourself. Don't do it when she's around or likely to be around. Don't save your favorite bestiality fantasy as your computer background. Wives - don't go snooping around in his browser history looking for that smoking gun or laying traps to catch him in the act. 

If you can't do exactly what your spouse desires of you, then at least be respectful of the difference of opinion. It's OK, once in a while, for neither side to win the argument.


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

Ina said:


> Your perspective is helpful. I can totally see your logic here. But i also see that you have made a commitment to your girlfriend, albeit one you are struggling with. So to you particularly i will ask, IF your GF satisfies you sexually, if you can both enjoy sex and intimacy with eachother, is it so wrong of her to ask that you sacrifice this need? While totally understanding that her request is based on something irrational but nevertheless present.


Eh, there's not really a commitment as in "I will give up porn!" She's my first relationship and we discovered our differences in porn somewhere along the road. We're handling the issue much better nowadays but yeah. It's not fully resolved yet (more details in the thread I created on my profile).

I'm keeping my porn habit as low as possible (twice/year atm) aiming to keep it near zero for the time being to give my girlfriend as much space and time she needs to deal with the issue. In time we might reconsider the issue and perhaps find a good compromise. I would be a bit disappointed if the end result is going to be "I can't live with porn. Ever" but I'll see what's going to come out of it.

IMO we have a good sex-life. But her drive is simply much lower and when she's stressed she doesn't want to have sex. I really don't want her to become sexually involved with me if she's not up for it. On top of that I understand that women often draw a connection between love and sex within the relationship and masturbation/porn. I hope you also see that in many cases there's no such correlation for men. They're pretty much individual aspects of my life. My dear gf can give me all the sex & intimacy I want - I won't lose my interest for porn. They're simply not linked like that.

Perhaps this all comes down that I cannot convince myself that I don't want porn. I don't need it, I've done a pretty okay job at staying away from it. But in the end, it still lures me and it's kind of a bummer that I have to abstain for a reason that inherently contradicts what I believe is true about sex and fidelity.

As soon as I decide for myself: "I'm never going to do it again" I get the feeling I'm lying to myself and trying to be something I am not. I can much better deal with the idea what were working for a compromise or something like that. In fact - I'll do much better at not watching porn when I'm not trying to fight some battle not to do it all the time (that might sound weird but I hope you understand). It simply becomes a lot less interesting.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

Meal said:


> You are not wrong to be upset. He is a pervert.
> Porn does not exist in a healthy "bible based and covnent marriage"... Scripture states it very clearly and I assume you were married in a church.
> 
> BUT YOU SAID FIANCE, so that deal is a bust!
> ...


Meal,
I had no intentions of posting on this thread as I felt as if I had nothing to say other than what others have posted but your post here has prompted me to comment.
I'm not sure how you would classify yourself in terms of your religious beliefs, but it is people like you and comments like this that throw a bad light on Christians and other people of faith. As a Christian, there are many statements made on these boards that I disagree with. There are many things that I read and I just shake my head, wondering how people can be so lost and uncaring and cruel. However, I also realize that the people on these boards come from all different walks of life and many different countries where their experiences are vastly different from what I grew up with. Their assumptions about how life works does not always match mine. As I mentioned earlier, many of the posts here annoy me...disappoint me...and make me sad about the state of the culture today. 
Regardless, when making a comment and/or asserting a certain viewpoint, I try to do so by using references that would be relevant to almost anyone that reads the comment. Your comments make the assumption the everyone believes as you do. Intellectually, this is as bad as getting into legal trouble in France and then basing your defense in court on U.S. law. Please try not to be so stereotypical in your responses so as to portray Christians or other people of faith as Bible-thumping, holier-than-thou loons. 
BTW - "pervert", "flicking your bean" and "simply castrate him" seem to be a bit incongruous with a loving attitude.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Ina said:


> I'm not completely sold on this yet, the whole porn if part of who we are thing. I suppose i could go to my source (my H), but really, why rock the boat.


I don't think porn is at all "part of who we are".

Men, in general, are just very sexual. Sex is constantly on the mind in one way, or another. We also tend to be very visually stimulated.

Porn is just cheap, easy, and available. If all porn disappeared off the face of the planet today, men would still revert to using images in their minds to create their own erotica.

Ultimately, porn or no porn, a lot of the conflict about this comes down to men and women having no clue, or even respect, for how the other is built.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Ina said:


> CW2, i can't say I share your perspective. I couldn't give up my passion for the sake of my marriage. My passions are part of who i am, and there's a level here of needing to keep one's identity in a relationship. After all, my H fell in love with these aspects of who I am. I would not be obstinate either. I suppose i would have to determine what is it about my passions that distress my marriage and go from there. Find some balance between my needs and his discomfort. I wouldn't be dismissive either (ahem). But i can't go as far to say, I'd give it all up without a thought. I know what would follow is unhappiness on my end, which would eventually negatively impact my marriage. I suppose this is what these boys are trying to express. Porn is a "passion" for some of them (or most). Part of who they are as men. I kind of dig that my H is well very masculine, so i know i can't then fault him for being well very masculine. I'm not completely sold on this yet, the whole porn if part of who we are thing. I suppose i could go to my source (my H), but really, why rock the boat.


Notice that I said I'd give them up if my husband felt they took up too much of my time. If he just didn't like them, I'd laugh and tell him "Tough." But, there is a such thing as prioritizing things that shouldn't be as much of a priority. 

I would never give up my passions merely because he didn't like them, though. He married me with them, he needs to accept them.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

Ina said:


> Hey Hey, if you read my posts, i never implicitly said i had a problem (present) with him watching porn. I said I've been guilty of being uncomfortable with it in the past. Now, I don't love the idea, but it's really not a problem in our marriage.


That is fair. Sorry maybe I've grown a little defensive or something... My wife recently told me that she was uncomfortable with my porn use early on in her relationship. I never knew this. I never made any attempt to hide it and I even told her that I was never going to stop looking at porn for anyone. It's just not on the list of things that are up for negotiation. I didn't want it to be a source conflict and distrust. I try very hard to not make promises that I can't keep. Plus I just don't see how I can continue to grow as a sexual person without exploring the world of sex via erotic images, video, text etc...

Anyway she said as she looked at more porn herself she found that she had the same kind of drive that I have, and no longer saw it as something that threatens our relationship. So this leaves wondering if most of the women who show up here posting about these issues are like my wife. Is really that all they need to do is spend some time surfing porn and then they would have an epiphany where they suddenly get it? SimplyAmorous writes sometimes about how as she got older her test rose and suddenly she found her self seeking out porn. Is it really all just down to testosterone? Maybe, I don't know.



> And my husband doesn't mind because it flat out does not mean anything to him, doesn't make him feel insecure. It's a non-issue. In fact, he finds it beneficial . . . and I'll just leave that there.


I think if your husband felt that you had something to fear from his porn use, then he would have a similar fear about your porn use.


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Well, I'm not a mind reader so I can't monitor his thoughts 24/7. He tells me that he doesn't fantasize about other women. He admits that it's difficult, but he says that he wants me to be the only women he fantasizes about. We do plenty of things to satisfy his visual cravings. We've filmed ourselves during sex, he's taken plenty of sexual pictures of me that he keeps on his phone, and I often send him pictures of myself as well. I'm not ignorant enough to think that he should go without any visual stimulation outside of the bedroom, or that he only masturbated when I'm around, so I provide him with a replacement to looking at other women.
> 
> We're consistent. If I wouldn't be okay with him being physically in the room while another couple made love, then I'm not okay with him looking at it on a screen. If I don't want him looking at it, then I don't want him fantasizing about it. And likewise with me. I don't watch porn, nor do I read romance novels. He doesn't like the examples romance novels give of men, he thinks they're unrealistic(as do I), so I don't read them.
> 
> We believe that it's, ultimately, dangerous to bring other people into the marriage emotionally or sexually, whether they're mere images on a screen or fictitious characters on the page. We both desire exclusivity. I don't want him fantasizing about other women, he doesn't want me fantasizing about other men.


Thanks for the reply. Well in that case you're very consistent. I can only believe you when you say your husband is the same. I do think such extremity is very rare and if people are looking for that you're pretty much bound to be disappointed. If my gf ever would escalate so far as to control what's going on in my mind I'd rather walk away and let her find a guy who shares those values. My gf nor me are anywhere close to your and your husband point of view. It's just that we aren't on the same page either (yet).


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Open up now let it all go said:


> My dear gf can give me all the sex & intimacy I want - I won't lose my interest for porn. They're simply not linked like that.


Exactly.

And sadly many women will spend countless hours, year after year, trying desperately to correct a way of thinking that doesn't even exist in a man's mind.



Open up now let it all go said:


> Perhaps this all comes down that I cannot convince myself that I don't want porn. I don't need it, I've done a pretty okay job at staying away from it. But in the end, it still lures me and it's kind of a bummer that I have to abstain for a reason that inherently contradicts what I believe is true about sex and fidelity.
> 
> As soon as I decide for myself: "I'm never going to do it again" I get the feeling I'm lying to myself and trying to be something I am not. I can much better deal with the idea what were working for a compromise or something like that. In fact - I'll do much better at not watching porn when I'm not trying to fight some battle not to do it all the time (that might sound weird but I hope you understand). It simply becomes a lot less interesting.


There should be a required "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy when it comes to porn for some people.

I champion for honesty when it comes to this matter, because I do not believe men should be made to feel like they can't be completely honest regarding their sexuality, but it does seem like the answer for some couples is just to ignore, and pretend.

If the porn isn't out of control, and it's not affecting the quality of the sex life, probably best to just not bring it up if you're with a person who just can't handle it's reality.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

east2west said:


> That is fair. Sorry maybe I've grown a little defensive or something... My wife recently told me that she was uncomfortable with my porn use early on in her relationship. I never knew this. I never made any attempt to hide it and I even told her that I was never going to stop looking at porn for anyone. It's just not on the list of things that are up for negotiation. I didn't want it to be a source conflict and distrust.


This is very similar to what happened with my wife and I. The only difference is that she didn't have any problem with porn usage at the top of the marriage. She use to watch porn as a teen herself, back when we were best friends, but she gave it up when she got into her 20's. We were together for a long time before marriage, so she knew going in what my thoughts on the matter were.

But she ran into a situation where she gained weight after we got married (we both did), was dealing with major body image issues she hadn't ever faced as an adult, and then started scapegoating the porn. She didn't demand I stop, my wife isn't foolish enough to pull that with me, but at some point she made it known that she was uncomfortable with me watching porn. Sex started to dip a little, and she made a comment that it was OK because I had my hand and porn. That was the tipping point, and I quickly set the record straight.

I never told me wife I would stop, cease, or eliminate porn simply because she grew uncomfortable. We talked, as we always do, and worked to get to the root of the matter. The root problem had nothing to do with porn, and everything to do with her new found insecurities. She was feeling bad about herself, and therefore threatened by my interest in porn. In her mind, irrational as it was, she was thinking that I needed to turn to porn because she was so fat. That makes no rational sense, but my wife is highly emotional, and sensitive, and I know this about her. She also started to rationalize staying away from sex by thinking porn was just as good. Her drive didn't drop, but she was just feeling so uncomfortable in her own skin and it was painful to expose her body. Again, the porn was a scapegoat that enabled her to stay buried in her problems. 

The work helped her get to the center of the issues, and begin to turn the tide back in favor of a healthier self image. If I had been like a lot of husbands, ashamed about the porn, making all kinds of vows to stay away, begging and groveling for forgiveness, and eventually falling back in and sneaking around with it, the real core issue would never have been faced.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

Open up now let it all go said:


> Eh, there's not really a commitment as in "I will give up porn!" She's my first relationship and we discovered our differences in porn somewhere along the road. We're handling the issue much better nowadays but yeah. It's not fully resolved yet (more details in the thread I created on my profile).
> 
> I'm keeping my porn habit as low as possible (twice/year atm) aiming to keep it near zero for the time being to give my girlfriend as much space and time she needs to deal with the issue. In time we might reconsider the issue and perhaps find a good compromise. I would be a bit disappointed if the end result is going to be "I can't live with porn. Ever" but I'll see what's going to come out of it.
> 
> ...


My advice to you is to do what I did.

Just tell her you look at porn and you aren't going to stop ever.

You and I both know that is true even though it sounds like a hard line position.

Let her sort out her own feelings about it.

Personally I don't feel that a woman who is still at the "porn is cheating" stage of emotional development is ready for marriage.

Boys growing up are often taught to assume that women have the moral high ground.

But they often do not.


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## rundown (Mar 21, 2012)

Meal said:


> You are not wrong to be upset. He is a pervert.
> Porn does not exist in a healthy "bible based and covnent marriage"... Scripture states it very clearly and I assume you were married in a church.
> 
> BUT YOU SAID FIANCE, so that deal is a bust!
> ...


Scripture also states that I need to be stoned for working on the Sabbith. It also states many other things. For some reason I am willing to bet you don't follow it word for word. Therefore your expectation of anybody else to follow the ones you happen to choose is just plain hypocritical. Get over yourself.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

east2west said:


> My advice to you is to do what I did.
> 
> Just tell her you look at porn and you aren't going to stop ever.
> 
> ...



I'm going to try and tease out how your post makes me _feel._ It's not so much what you are saying, but the tone that i perceive. (note that i say how i perceive it not how you meant it). It sometimes feels like you are angry with women and that your approach is a bit us v them. Now while i can totally see how men and women are different, I think that things work best when we try to understand and respect where the other is coming from, not necessarily when we judge or put each other in some box that minimizes one sex over the other. May i am the one being defensive now, and if so, let me apologize up front.

So to your post, "Let her sort out her feelings". This one doesn't sit right, and it doesn't have to, it was directed at me. But i have to say, i disagree. I think a person may find a better solution and compromise, if they work on these things together and refrain from minimizing someone's views or feelings simply because they are not based on some truth that they may not be aware of or not understand.


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

You do know that the porn is NOT REAL? Nice to beat off to but not life changing for a normal guy. I have a test for you. Ask you boyfriend if he has looked a ten videos of porn? If so, ask him about the 8th video, the 5th video, 3rd video. Who were the stars, what did the say, repeate some of the script. My bet is that he has NO idea of what it was about besides porn. Pretty nude girls. Big Boobs. Warm or Hot coffee. It goes back to being safe with mom when he was a newborn, he was warm, he was sucking on a breast, he was safe. Thats the thing with coffee, that why guys look at big boobs. Its an echo of a safe time. Well that is my 2 cents. Bye David


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## Leobwin (Apr 28, 2012)

DT4379 said:


> So after a long night of no talking (took the advice and said nothing) ..I get up this morning and he had my lunch made.....What should I do?


Watch out for the extra mayo on your sandwich!

Seriously, lighten up and try to have a fun conversation about it. Or let it go completely. DO NOT let it become contentious.

Good luck to you!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

east2west said:


> *It strikes me that nearly all the discomfort stems from a simple lack of understanding of the other person's sexual nature. Is the solution to cage that person's sexuality so that their spouse may remain comfortable.
> *
> The vibrator analogy was perfect. Men are expected to tolerate substitutes for their own penis in the actual bedroom, during actual sex. Men just have to get comfortable. Be happy you are getting anything at all. After all only 30% of women can reach orgasm using a human penis, or so they tell us.
> But a man looking at erotic material on his own time is out of bounds.


:lol:
Ha, ha!
My thoughts exactly!
..................................................................................................

I remember once having that masturbation conversation with my wife. She told me that she didn't do it because she was now married.
Some time later, we were talking about sex toys. I asked her if she wanted me to purchase a vibrator, she said yes,:scratchhead: and we shopped for it online.
So most likely, she was shy or ashamed to ay that she did masturbate.
Either way, it didn't bother me. What she does in her private time is her business , so long as no marital boundaries were being crossed.

My point is that one partner cannot know exactly what the other does in privacy, and I think both a man and a woman need their private space sometimes in a marriage.
We live in a society where there is still a lot of taboos about sex and people feel guilty about their sexuality.
It is not good to put 100% of your sexuality into the hands of another person. 
Masturbation and actual sex are two different things all together. They are different levels of arousal and stimulation.

A man's hand , and penis could never provide the exact , same level of sexual stimulation and gratification to a woman who uses her own hands in the privacy of her room.

If she masturbates regularly,her body establishes an
" orgasmic path " so her body responds whenever she wants it to respond, and the intensity of her orgasm is controlled entirely by the stimuli in her mind.

The same thing can be said of a man.

A spouse , no matter how good or well meaning ,cannot provide that same feeling.

So the confuse masturbation with actual sex is not helpful in any debate about porn usage .

Even animals masturbate, young children masturbate before adolescence, long before they can identify the feelings as sexual, or are exposed to any sexually explicit or pornographic imagery.

The problem comes in with the abuse of porn.

Like anything pleasurable, some people tend to think its inherently evil. 
Before porn became mainstream, it was alcohol
Before alcohol it was male masturbation or " secret vice."
Before that it was riches and luxuries.
Hell, at one time even books and novels were considered evil in some societies.

There is absolutely no way to know what is in a man's mind.
He may see a sex, sensually dressed woman ,and this may arouse him . He comes home and that image is still on his mind. He wants to have sex, and sometimes while having sex the image is still on his mind. If he cannot have sex, he masturbates with the image on his mind.
Out of respect for his wife , he does not tell her, but the image is there. That does not mean that he's _always_ thinking of other women when he's having sex.
It simply means that the same biological mechanism that makes him horny around you is fully functional. 
Again, the problem only comes in when it is abused, and the wife is left in the cold. 

I my case, the older I got, the less I depended on masturbation and porn. Maybe its because I am always busy and still having lots of sex. Or maybe it a sense of 
" been there done that." But I have masturbated to lots of porn in the past, even when I got married, but gradually over time it just faded.
It could also be the fact that as men get older , testosterone levels fall, and I'm a recreational , amateur bodybuilder, so I need my testosterone to build muscle [ ha, ha!]
My wife and I have also used porn during our sex, but over time that too faded.
We are now in a different phase. Who knows , maybe we'll include it once again?
I don't know.
But what I do know its a waste of time and energy fighting over porn , or worrying if your husband is secretly looking at it , if your sex life is great.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

Ina said:


> I'm going to try and tease out how your post makes me _feel._ It's not so much what you are saying, but the tone that i perceive. (note that i say how i perceive it not how you meant it). It sometimes feels like you are angry with women and that your approach is a bit us v them. Now while i can totally see how men and women are different, I think that things work best when we try to understand and respect where the other is coming from, not necessarily when we judge or put each other in some box that minimizes one sex over the other. May i am the one being defensive now, and if so, let me apologize up front.
> 
> So to your post, "Let her sort out her feelings". This one doesn't sit right, and it doesn't have to, it was directed at me. But i have to say, i disagree. I think a person may find a better solution and compromise, if they work on these things together and refrain from minimizing someone's views or feelings simply because they are not based on some truth that they may not be aware of or not understand.


Ok, just to be clear on a couple things.

I don't think I am angry at women. I certainly don't have any angry feelings towards my wife that I am carrying into these discussions. A lot of women who are angry at their own husbands porn use have redirected that anger at me, but I don't take those comments seriously otherwise I wouldn't be here.

I do feel some anger on behalf of the husbands who suffer a lot over this issue. Their wives have unreasonable expectations of them and they suffer a lot in trying to meet those expectations. And even when they succeed they rarely get any credit for it, sadly. More often the wife is still suspicious that her husband is secretly looking at porn. There is no way to prove that you have not seen porn. But I also see those men as having created their own problem by immediately ceding the moral high ground and making promises they can't keep. I do hope OpenUp will not find himself in that situation.

Also I have seen antisexual propaganda from conservative religious organizations floating around posing as bonafide academic research. That makes me angry as well.

I have some anger towards the idea that viewing porn is cheating. That porn is a person that one can have an affair with. I feel sorry for the people who are under the control of that particular idea. It is an idea that impairs ones ability to have a healthy relationship with the vast majority of the population who do look at porn.

If there was nothing to be angry over I guess I would be doing something else. It's not personal or anything.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

east2west said:


> *I do feel some anger on behalf of the husbands who suffer a lot over this issue. Their wives have unreasonable expectations of them and they suffer a lot in trying to meet those expectations. And even when they succeed they rarely get any credit for it, sadly.* More often the wife is still suspicious that her husband is secretly looking at porn. There is no way to prove that you have not seen porn.


I sometimes wonder is some of this is not fuelled by the fact that some women [ wives ] have historically been in control of their men's sexuality.
Traditionally , men have done crazy things to have sex with their wives / woman. So sexual manipulation within a marriage was a method of control over some men.

Now that porn has provided an outlet they feel a loss of that power?

I am NOT talking about the abuse of porn. I am referring to the fact that some men _may _choose to resort to porn whenever the sexual manipulation starts.

I am just speculating!


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

CM,

I agree the distinction between masturbation and sex is something very important that doesn't get discussed a lot.

I can touch my d!ck with my hand of course.

But only erotic stories, videos, images (porn) can stimulate the brain.

It's all masturbation and not sex, but text is different than video is different than pictures.

Kind of like touching different parts of my d!ck creates different feelings.

I think it becomes sex when there is another person involved.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Newbie and lurker here, but I just had to comment on this:



> My advice to you is to do what I did.
> 
> Just tell her you look at porn and you aren't going to stop ever.
> 
> ...


It seems that whenever this discussion comes up, women are told that they must just accept porn because "that's how guys are". Women who object are "irrational" or have "poor body image". Or are dismissed as religious nuts. Or whatever. Never are men at fault. They don't consider themselves selfish, just entitled. They don't take responsibility for the continued degradation of women, they're "just wired that way." 

It is always the woman's problem, and always the woman to blame when she has trouble accepting it.

When a woman objects and finds it destabilizing to the relationship, men say "it means nothing" or "there's no competition", but at the same time flat out refuses to stop and devotes often substantial amounts of time to this hobby that "isn't important". If it really means nothing, then why are so many men so committed to porn? 

To me it all just sounds like rationalizations to justify doing whatever he wants, whenever he wants, without regard to her feelings. And if she has a problem with it, well clearly she just isn't mature enough to roll over and submit to whatever line he is choosing to dish out this week.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

east2west said:


> CM,
> 
> I think it becomes sex when there is another person involved.


Well,
A 14 year old boy who has never had sex ,masturbates every night thinking about some girl he has a crush on , or looking at porn on his computer.
Is he a virgin?

He reaches 20 years old and still has no luck in picking up girls, so he masturbates with the same frequency over some magazine or porn DVD's. Is he still a virgin?

The same can be said of a girl. She's a virgin because she never had sex. I doesn't matter if she masturbates everytime she see's a hot guy, she's NEVER HAD SEX.

Sex and masturbation are different things.
Women and men masturbate differently and to different stimuli because they are WIRED DIFFERENTLY.

Woman gets married , masturbation doesn't stop.
Man gets married , he is made to feel ashamed because his 
" sexual ardour " belongs to his wife.:scratchhead:

That's my point.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Newbie and lurker here, but I just had to comment on this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Welcome to TAM, Always_Alone.

I agree with your post, but I think you'll find that these sort of threads always devolve into a man vs woman scenario 

The sad thing here is that the OP's relationship is being adversely affected by porn because _her partner appears to have more enthusiasm for porn than he does for having sex with her..._


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Newbie and lurker here, but I just had to comment on this:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that whenever this discussion comes up, women are told that they must just accept porn because "that's how guys are". Women who object are "irrational" or have "poor body image". Or are dismissed as religious nuts. Or whatever. Never are men at fault. They don't consider themselves selfish, just entitled. They don't take responsibility for the continued degradation of women, they're "just wired that way."


Ok but in a similar fashion the men are being told; "If your wife doesn't like porn for some reason then you just have to stop." And they say this with a completely straight face as if it is no big deal. And if you object you are compared to a crack addict or a cheater.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

east2west said:


> Ok but in a similar fashion the men are being told; "If your wife doesn't like porn for some reason then you just have to stop." And they say this with a completely straight face as if it is no big deal. And if you object you are compared to a crack addict or a cheater.


Men are also told on TAM that they are silly and insecure if they feel that they have to compete with their wife's toys.

Looks to me like that old double standard.

A woman's sexuality belongs to her and a man's sexuality belongs to his wife. She is encouraged to " explore her body"
whenever she sees fit .
But he cannot touch his penis unless she gives him permission.

I have NEVER seen any thread or post where a man has discouraged or disparaged his wife because she is masturbating.
In fact its quite the opposite, men often say they wish their wives did it for them.
However , lots of threads and post exist here where women downright condemn men who masturbate and use any external stimuli such as porn.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Newbie and lurker here, but I just had to comment on this:
> To me it all just sounds like rationalizations to justify doing whatever he wants, whenever he wants, without regard to her feelings. And if she has a problem with it, well clearly she just isn't mature enough to roll over and submit to whatever line he is choosing to dish out this week.


Flaunting it, bragging about it to your wife, leaving web pages open and magazines around the house, and repeatedly failing in your sexual obligations is being disrespectful to your spouse.

Doing it in private, away from her eyes, and only occasionally having it accidentally interfere with your intimate life is not. 

No amount of brow beating is going to change that. 

If you view every man's use of pornography through a distorted lens, no wonder your view is ****eyed.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

east2west said:


> And they say this with a completely straight face as if it is no big deal.


Errr, but that's what we are being told over and over again: That it is no big deal. If it isn't a big deal, why so committed?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Errr, but that's what we are being told over and over again: That it is no big deal. If it isn't a big deal, why so committed?


Because a man's penis belongs to HIM.
Long before he met you , he had a relationship with his penis.

The size of it bothered him , the shape of it bothered him ,the way it looked bothered him, but most of all, how it feels when petted comforted and pleased him , when other women rejected him.

Now why should he give you that responsibility?
Can you do for him what his penis does?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Looks to me like that old double standard.
> 
> A woman's sexuality belongs to her and a man's sexuality belongs to his wife. She is encouraged to " explore her body"
> whenever she sees fit .
> But he cannot touch his penis unless she gives him permission.


My comment was directed at porn use, not masturbation. The original OP was worried about porn use before sex, with no mention (that I recall) of masturbation.

Personally, I totally agree that we all have the right to touch ourselves however we like. But I do have a huge amount of trouble with the male sense of entitlement to treat women like pieces of meat. When men treat me or my sisters like a hot piece you'd like to hit, it makes me lose all respect, interest, and faith in your ability to conduct a normal human relationship.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Men are also told on TAM that they are silly and insecure if they feel that they have to compete with their wife's toys.
> 
> Looks to me like that old double standard.


You won't hear me saying that because, yes, that would be a double standard.

There isn't a sex toy in this world that comes even close to the sheer ecstasy of my partner's touch, and I'm the sort of woman who prefers to plan and anticipate the next banquet rather than snacking at McDonalds.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> You won't hear me saying that because, yes, that would be a double standard.
> 
> There isn't a sex toy in this world that comes even close to the sheer ecstasy of my partner's touch, and I'm the sort of woman who prefers to plan and anticipate the next banquet rather than snacking at McDonalds.


............and there is no " porno girl " who can compete with my wife in bed.She satisfies ME.

But like I said before, the confusion in women's head comes when they feel that masturbation = sex for men.

When the actual problem is misusing and abusing pornography.
Allowing porn to take the place of intimacy.

Alcohol can take the place of intimacy, 
Work can take the place of intimacy,
Children can take the place of intimacy.
Even sex sometimes takes the place of intimacy.

What is needed is for women to understand male sexuality, and stop thinking in the dark ages.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

always_alone said:


> My comment was directed at porn use, not masturbation. The original OP was worried about porn use before sex, with no mention (that I recall) of masturbation.
> 
> Personally, I totally agree that we all have the right to touch ourselves however we like. But I do have a huge amount of trouble with the male sense of entitlement to treat women like pieces of meat. When men treat me or my sisters like a hot piece you'd like to hit, it makes me lose all respect, interest, and faith in your ability to conduct a normal human relationship.


Men use visual images as an aid to masturbate.
Has always been like that.
Some women do too.
Instead of peeping in at the neighbour's wife, they look at the woman in the centrefold or the girl on the computer screen.

Its not about treating women like a piece of meat.
Women are highly paid to pose for photographs or movies.
They choose to do it, and they know well beforehand, exactly what it is used for.
Their movies / pics are not being used for
" scientific purposes."
They are used as masturbation aid for both sexes.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> What is needed is for women to understand male sexuality, and stop thinking in the dark ages.


Or maybe what is needed is for men to realize that their sexuality doesn't give them the right to treat women like pieces of meat.


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## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

So....it looks like OP hasn't replied to this thread in 9 days.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Or maybe what is needed is for men to realize that their sexuality doesn't give them the right to treat women like pieces of meat.


Here we go again with this 
" pieces of meat" argument.

If a woman decided that she is not posing or taking off her clothes in front of a camera, then there would be no 
" pieces of meat " argument.

Its the women who treat themselves as pieces of meat by accepting money to disrobe in front of a camera, knowing fully well that pictures of her would be circulated to men for the sole purpose of visual stimulation during masturbation.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

always_alone said:


> To me it all just sounds like rationalizations to justify doing whatever he wants, whenever he wants, without regard to her feelings. And if she has a problem with it, well clearly she just isn't mature enough to roll over and submit to whatever line he is choosing to dish out this week.



I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Yes, some men develop a mental dependency upon porn. Yes some men neglect their wives because of that dependency and yes, some men develop a taste for degrading forms of porn. 

At the same time though, I suspect that being a man is not like being a woman only without your period. One difference _vis a vis_ sexual physiology is this:

The male sexual apparatus produces a fluid and that fluid is stored. Just as with your lungs or your stomach or you bladder, storage capacity is finite. A young, healthy man can no more decide he's not going to release it periodically than a young, healthy woman can decide she's not going to have another period.

The body can reabsorb semen to a certain extent, but after a period of months, a condition develops called congestive prostatitis. I've had it. It's very painful and requires medical attention.

To those wives who think porn in any form should be forbidden in their marriage, I'm curious. Have you never been indisposed ever? You've never had clinical depression because of the death of a close family member? You've never been in a bad accident? You've never had major surgery? You've never had a miscarriage? You've never had post-partum coolness? You've never had any number of things that could put sex off the table for a month or more?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Or maybe what is needed is for men to realize that their sexuality doesn't give them the right to treat women like pieces of meat.


Letting photons from an image of a naked woman projected on a computer terminal hit the back of my eye is a far, far cry from treating a woman like a piece of meat. Rape is treating a woman like a piece of meat. One night stands with no intention of ever creating relationships is treating a woman like a piece of meat. Other examples abound.

Viewing pornography is not in this category. 

I get that you don't get this, but your failure of understanding is not my fault.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Its not about treating women like a piece of meat.
> Women are highly paid to pose for photographs or movies.
> They choose to do it, and they know well beforehand, exactly what it is used for.


Oh dear, where to begin? You mean the porn industry isn't at all exploitative? That it is all just freely chosen careers by empowered individuals?

That 99% of it is not from the male point of view, without regard to the women's pleasure (except maybe some fake moaning)? That much of what is depicted (face shots, etc.) isn't explicitly and deliberately about catering to male desires to degrade women?

And let's not forget the way that men talk about porn, or even just attractive women in general, wanting to "hit that" among other things. And whenever a woman asks "what's with that?", all the men chime in to to justify it with "that's just how we are" and " yes, that's how we talk when you're not around", and so on.

And then you're all surprised and think we're controlling because we don't like being thought of that way.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I think that the " pieces of meat" argument stems from the concept that nudity is bad, wrong and inherently evil.

Sure, there are categories of porn that are extremely gross in my opinion. I could never like them.
Just as there are some sex acts that I consider gross.
But there is absolutely nothing wrong in nudity.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Oh dear, where to begin? You mean the porn industry isn't at all exploitative? That it is all just freely chosen careers by empowered individuals?
> 
> That 99% of it is not from the male point of view, without regard to the women's pleasure (except maybe some fake moaning)? That much of what is depicted (face shots, etc.) isn't explicitly and deliberately about catering to male desires to degrade women?
> 
> ...


Oh dear, where do I begin?

Sometimes when my wife and I are having sex, in the heat of passion, she might moan something like this,
" oh god fcuk me..yes ...harder..."

She has long , black hair.
She also likes it when I pull her hair sometimes, if I'm hammering her from behind.

Does that mean she's degrading herself? 
Should I do as she says, or should I remind her that she's a lady and not a " piece of meat?"

Art imitates life and vice versa.

Yes, porn is made with men in mind. But there is porn designed for women without the facials and close up camera shots of the genitalia. If more women were directors , women too would be consuming porn as much as men.

That's why I don't buy into this " victim status " of women who act in porn.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

BTW,
Women are also paid much higher than their male counterparts in porn.
Women also have a better chance of an actual career in porn than men, simply because its consumers are male wanting to view females..


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Perhaps men will stop treating women like a piece of meat when women stop treating men like a human ATM machine.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> I think that the " pieces of meat" argument stems from the concept that nudity is bad, wrong and inherently evil.
> 
> Not at all. There is nothing wrong with nudity (hey, I was born that way!) And nothing wrong with sex. The feeling of "pieces of meat" comes from the constant use of women for sexual gratification without any consideration for anything else.
> 
> ...


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Not at all. There is nothing wrong with nudity (hey, I was born that way!) And nothing wrong with sex. The feeling of "pieces of meat" comes from the constant use of women for sexual gratification without any consideration for anything else.
> 
> Yes, I know that some women like porn. And despite what I have been saying here, I am not totally opposed to it myself. Certainly I quite understand why some find a need for it. But I also think the male sense of entitlement around it and the utter unwillingness to even try to understand why (many) women find it problematic really depressing.
> 
> I find it a total and utter turn off and relationships destabilizer


I'm interested in how you came up with your username. Why are you "always alone"? What's your story? You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about men, and you kind of showed up out of nowhere. Maybe you could make a post and tell everyone what brought you here. You know, put yourself out there like everyone else has.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

east2west said:


> Ok, just to be clear on a couple things.
> 
> I don't think I am angry at women. I certainly don't have any angry feelings towards my wife that I am carrying into these discussions. A lot of women who are angry at their own husbands porn use have redirected that anger at me, but I don't take those comments seriously otherwise I wouldn't be here.
> 
> ...


Well thank you for the clarification. Just want to point out that not all women hold these opinions that anger you, and that actually some men do. Unrealistic expectations go both ways as well.


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## changednow (Dec 2, 2012)

BeachGuy said:


> So....it looks like OP hasn't replied to this thread in 9 days.


because it turned into a man vs woman post. It was her problem.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Men are also told on TAM that they are silly and insecure if they feel that they have to compete with their wife's toys.
> 
> Looks to me like that old double standard.
> 
> ...


Again, we are not talking about masturbating here, but in any event I believe that most women actually accept that masturbating is normal behavior for men. I believe it's normal all around, and it always surprises me how many women as ashamed to admit that this is healthy and normal for women to participate in masturbation. 

I could list double standards that go the other way, it ok for men, not ok for women types of things. We all grow up socialized a certain way. I think whats helpful is that we are open to other perspectives, not that we continue to perpetuate the stereotypes and generalizations that lead to these double standards.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Caribbean Man said:
> 
> 
> > I think that the " pieces of meat" argument stems from the concept that nudity is bad, wrong and inherently evil.
> ...


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## Soccerfan73 (Jul 30, 2011)

I can certainly understand that some women do not accept any porn use by their partner in their relationship. That is fully their right to feel that way, as they have to set the boundaries that they are comfortable living with. Hopefully they'll share that information before things are too far along. 

Just as I just personally wouldn't pursue a further relationship with a woman that militant about the issue. In my life currently, I certainly prefer my partner, and I wouldn't choose porn over my partner. But I certainly wouldn't ask for permission to masturbate if I wanted to either.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Ina said:


> Again, we are not talking about masturbating here, but in any event I believe that most women actually accept that masturbating is normal behavior for men. I believe it's normal all around, and it always surprises me how many women as ashamed to admit that this is healthy and normal for women to participate in masturbation.
> 
> I could list double standards that go the other way, it ok for men, not ok for women types of things. We all grow up socialized a certain way. I think whats helpful is that we are open to other perspectives, not that we continue to perpetuate the stereotypes and generalizations that lead to these double standards.


The problem miss,
Is that men are not wired like women sexually.
"....Men are from Mars , women are from Venus.."
A man can get aroused in a matter of seconds, women take some time.
Women can have multiple orgasms, men can only have about three on a really good day.
Men could suffer from erectile dysfunction or performance issues anytime.
Women have no such cooncerns.
Men actually do the " thrusting" during sex.
Women simply receive the thrusting.
I can go on.

Because men are wired differently, porn exist.
Because women are wired differently, very few sex toys for men exist.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Soccerfan73 said:


> I can certainly understand that some women do not accept any porn use by their partner in their relationship. That is fully their right to feel that way, as they have to set the boundaries that they are comfortable living with. Hopefully they'll share that information before things are too far along.
> 
> Just as I just personally wouldn't pursue a further relationship with a woman that militant about the issue. In my life currently, *I certainly prefer my partner, and I wouldn't choose porn over my partner. But I certainly wouldn't ask for permission to masturbate if I wanted to either.*


Which is exactly what I'm saying.
A man cannot tell a woman what stimuli she should jill off to, if she could use toys, what sizes etc ,or even how often. Just as long she's not with holding from him.

So why should a woman tell a man he cannot look at porn?

A man is supposed to take his lover's feeling on any issue into consideration,but he is not an animal because he does not agree with her stance.
Especially if that stance is irrational, and based on her feelings alone.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Because a man's penis belongs to HIM.
> Long before he met you , he had a relationship with his penis.
> 
> The size of it bothered him , the shape of it bothered him ,the way it looked bothered him, but most of all, how it feels when petted comforted and pleased him , when other women rejected him.
> ...


So yes, my sexuality is mine, his is his. But how we approach our sexuality affects the other. And umm, for the record when my husband chose to marry me he also committed his penis to me. There are things I wouldn't tolerate, naming him sticking his penis in someone else's vagina.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Ina said:


> *But how we approach our sexuality affects the other.*
> .


........and how we deal with each other's sexuality affects the relationship. Positively or negatively.
Deal with it in a realistic, mature non judgemental way and its a win-win.

Deal with it in a biased , c0ckeyed way and there will always be trouble.

And for the record, we're all speaking within the confines of marriage, not outside.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> The problem miss,
> Is that men are not wired like women sexually.
> "....Men are from Mars , women are from Venus.."
> A man can get aroused in a matter of seconds, women take some time.
> ...


1) thank you for calling me miss, though flattery will get you nowhere

2) umm, I can get aroused pretty damn quick.

3) women suffer from performance issues all the time, you just may not SEE it. But really, we have performance anxiety and can have other biological issues that affect sexual functioning.

4) I don't have statistics but my impression has always been that men utilize sex toys for their own pleasure just as much if not more than women. And I know many many women who enjoy watching porn.

5) this wiring thing I can accept to a point, as I realize there are biological and instinctual differences. I also believe in evolution. I've heard folks use this wiring argument to explain why it's ok for men to be unfaithful but not for women. Not saying you or anyone here ascribes to that belief, just saying at some point the argument loses its validity in my eyes.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Perhaps men will stop treating women like a piece of meat when women stop treating men like a human ATM machine.


Really, I make more money than my husband. Please stop with the generalizations!


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ina said:


> Really, I make more money than my husband. Please stop with the generalizations!


Actually my whole point was that generalizations suck. There were some pretty ugly generalizations about men in the posts before my post. My post was meant to point out how wrong that is. Maybe you should make the same demand about the posts that say men treat women like a piece of meat. I didn't appreciate being labeled that way. I don't treat my wife or any other woman that way.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Ina said:


> 1) thank you for calling me miss, though flattery will get you nowhere
> 
> 2) umm, I can get aroused pretty damn quick.
> 
> ...



My goodness.:scratchhead:
Do enjoy the rest of your evening.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Just because a man has sexual urges does _not_ mean he uses women as a piece of meat. Not sure where that came from...Sheesh. I would be utterly _devastated_ if my husband suddenly had no desire to pursue me sexually. I mean, besides loving each other and being best friends, we married so that we could have exclusive sex whenever we wanted. Sexual desire is not the enemy. 

Nor is masturbation, imo. Too many people are hyped up about masturbation. I have a friend who was having incredibly sexual dreams and would wake up with all kinds of physical urges. She's single. She was getting to the point of feeling physically overwhelmed, and I suggested masturbation. She tried it for a bit, and then stopped, and has been plagued with sexual tension ever since. 

I don't get that. I don't masturbate often, but that's because I don't have the urge to all that often. 

Again, sexual urges are _good_ and natural, and we're all wired that way to a certain extent. The only issue I have is this feeling of entitlement from men for women to "just accept" that porn is going to be a part of their life, whether their wife is okay with it or not. I mean, isn't that selfish? It's like saying, "I don't care that anal hurts you. I want it, it feels good, and this desire isn't even about you, so I think you should just take it." Essentially that's what is being said about porn. 

It was said that the same is being said to men; that they should just accept that their wife isn't okay with it, and let it go. Well, let's examine that:

Is it going to _hurt_ you not to view porn? Because that's the difference; if a wife is uncomfortable with her husband viewing porn, even after they have both discussed it and heard each other out, then the fact that he does view it is not only going to hurt her emotionally, but it effects the trust of the relationship. And since it wouldn't hurt anyone to kick porn out of their lives, yes, I think the man should give it up if it's that big of a deal. 

And if the answer is yes, not viewing porn would hurt, then doesn't that mean they have an addiction, or are heading toward it?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Also, since men are very visual(something I do believe is true), why not find alternatives to porn if the wife doesn't like porn itself? Some women would be totally open to having pornographic pictures taken of themselves, and would be incredibly flattered to be used to stimulate their husbands the way porn does. I mean, it's the same thing, just with the woman you love more than anyone else. Shouldn't that be better, anyway? I mean, everyone here has said they would prefer their spouse so...use them!


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Women are our Wives ,Mothers, sisters ,Aunts , Cousins and so forth. Yes?


Yes, exactly. Which is why I don't want understand why men are so obsessed with porn and trash-talking women. Do you not realize that porn stars and hotties are also wives, mothers, daughters, etc?


Caribbean Man said:


> But is it wrong to get sexual satisfaction from your wife?
> No


I don't think it is wrong to get sexual gratification from a person. I think it's disrespectful to treat persons like nothing more than objects of that gratification. This includes porn, leering, trash-talking, and "boy check out that hottie" comments.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Maybe you should make the same demand about the posts that say men treat women like a piece of meat. I didn't appreciate being labeled that way. I don't treat my wife or any other woman that way.


But watching porn is treating women like a piece of meat. Yes, true it does exist just for your gratification, but you aren't going to tell me you care about her in any way are you?

(I do realize that it is a business transaction, not an actual relationship, and so the rules of engagement are different. But the attitudes I've seen expressed about porn stars are not much different than those of prostitutes, strippers, etc. Not a whole lot of respect there, despite booming demand.)


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Just because a man has sexual urges does _not_ mean he uses women as a piece of meat. Not sure where that came from...Sheesh. I would be utterly _devastated_ if my husband suddenly had no desire to pursue me sexually.


Me too! I know this to be true. I never meant to say that sexual urges are objectification, just that reducing women (or men) to that one function is.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

...


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Me too! I know this to be true. I never meant to say that sexual urges are objectification, just that reducing women (or men) to that one function is.


I agree, but the difference is that I don't see that anyone here has been trying to justify treating women that way. While I agree that porn _can_ do that, to both men and women, it's a giant leap to assume that the men here treat their wives that way. I strongly disagree with using porn, and I definitely don't share the view of many men in this thread, but nowhere have they advocated treating women that way. Using porn against a spouses wish is definitely selfish, imo, but reducing a woman's state to a mere piece of meat? That's a bit extreme for me. 

The men here have stated emphatically that they love their wives, and the majority have said that their wives often watch porn with them. Under that mutuality and consent, I fail to see where the "piece of meat" lies...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Oh dear, where to begin? You mean the porn industry isn't at all exploitative? That it is all just freely chosen careers by empowered individuals?
> 
> That 99% of it is not from the male point of view, without regard to the women's pleasure (except maybe some fake moaning)? That much of what is depicted (face shots, etc.) isn't explicitly and deliberately about catering to male desires to degrade women?
> 
> ...



Frankly I'm at a loss as to why any man who enjoys porn, and sees no inherent problem with it, should care what any woman thinks about it. Not to be too crass, but why would I give a damn what you, or any woman, thinks about what I do with my penis, in my private time? You don't like porn? Find it degrading to women? Then don't watch. Problem solved. Mind your own business, and the conflict disappears.

This is why people need to be open, honest, and upfront about their sexuality _before_ getting married.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Hopelessly Jaded.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Also, since men are very visual(something I do believe is true), why not find alternatives to porn if the wife doesn't like porn itself? Some women would be totally open to having pornographic pictures taken of themselves, and would be incredibly flattered to be used to stimulate their husbands the way porn does. I mean, it's the same thing, just with the woman you love more than anyone else. Shouldn't that be better, anyway? I mean, everyone here has said they would prefer their spouse so...use them!


This assumes that men are all watching porn because they want to see some naked T&A.

This is what we're talking about. The anti-porn brigade makes these sweeping generalizations that totally dimiss the fact that people watch porn all for different reasons.

It's like having a spouse who enjoys going out to eat at different restaurants from time to time, and saying to them "why do you need to go out? I can just make your favorite dish for you every single time you're hungry, and that should be enough".

No. For a lot of men it's not about how tasty the favorite dish is. It is wonderful, and it is, after all, their favorite dish.

But having a favorite dish doesn't suddenly take away a person's desire to enjoy other flavors.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> But like I said before, the confusion in women's head comes when they feel that masturbation = sex for men.


Some women's heads, perhaps. As a single mother I educated my adolescent son that masturbation was normal and healthy. Not an easy talk for a mother to have with her son, but I wanted to ensure that he didn't believe some of the horse manure I was fed when I was his age. There's nothing wrong with masturbation.



> What is needed is for women to understand male sexuality, and stop thinking in the dark ages.


I agree, but it works both ways. Men also need to try to understand a woman's sexuality and wiring a little more, rather than simply dismissing them as insecure, jealous and controlling if they have an issue with porn in their relationships. Their concerns often go much deeper than that...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Yes, exactly. Which is why I don't want understand why men are so obsessed with porn and trash-talking women. Do you not realize that porn stars and hotties are also wives, mothers, daughters, etc?


Instead of going on a campaign to get men to stop enjoying porn, why not save all this bluster and vim for telling women to stop showing up to auditions to star in the films? There is no shortage of women trying to break into porn, and stay in porn.

Barring the fact that you don't seem to realize that men are likewise objectified in porn, including all male porn, and are only in a huff about women, why not rail against the WOMEN WHO CHOSE TO DO PORN?


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## rundown (Mar 21, 2012)

Always alone. Judging by your writing style, your convictions and the time you joined. Are you my wife?


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

always_alone said:


> But watching porn is treating women like a piece of meat. Yes, true it does exist just for your gratification, but you aren't going to tell me you care about her in any way are you?
> 
> (I do realize that it is a business transaction, not an actual relationship, and so the rules of engagement are different. But the attitudes I've seen expressed about porn stars are not much different than those of prostitutes, strippers, etc. Not a whole lot of respect there, despite booming demand.)


Can't agree. I've watched porn, been gratified by it and don't think I objectified the people that willingly participated in creating it. Sex can be sex without the intimacy and connection, so long as everyone is willing and on the same page, I believe this is natural and healthy. I wasn't raised that way, but thankfully I evolved, otherwise I'd live a repressed individual.

As for the comments men express about women, women do the same. And keep this in mind, whether you say it out loud or say it in your head, it's the same thing. I may not be as crass as some of my male counterparts, but when I see Henry Cavill (sigh, focus), I Thank God Almighty! However the man can be naked in front of me and willing to pleasure me in infinite ways (focus, focus, focus), and (after taking a look ) I'd run the other way, find my husband and jump his bones. You can't turn off who and what you are attracted to, but you certainly can control yourself and maintain your commitment to your partner 24/7.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

let me see how simple I can put this.

Alcohol is a multi billion dollar industry.
Alcohol is addictive to the weak and dependent .
Alcohol is deadly when used indiscriminately.
Alcohol destroys families when abused.
Alcohol takes away lives, when driving under its influence.
Alcohol impairs judgement.
Alcohol lowers moral standards when abused.
Alcohol should not be accessible to children.

Yet we still use Alcohol , and the vast majority of us are not drunkards nor have sacrificed our family for the love of alcohol.
Some people choose to stay away from it , others only drink at certain times , whilst others must have it to relieve stress daily and prep them for sexual activity, be it solo or with their partner.
It helps them " unwind."

So here's the thing.
Just replace the word " Alcohol " above with " Porn ."
The exact same thing holds true for porn.

Is porn necessary? 
No.
Is Alcohol necessary?
No.
Should anybody , male or female feel that they have a right to decide for themselves whether or not they want to use Alcohol, regardless of its potential dangers?
YES.
Should anybody, male or female feel that they have a right to decide for themselves whether or not they want to use Porn, regardless of its potential dangers?
YES.


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

always_alone said:


> But watching porn is treating women like a piece of meat. Yes, true it does exist just for your gratification, but you aren't going to tell me you care about her in any way are you?
> 
> (I do realize that it is a business transaction, not an actual relationship, and so the rules of engagement are different. But the attitudes I've seen expressed about porn stars are not much different than those of prostitutes, strippers, etc. Not a whole lot of respect there, despite booming demand.)


Eh, if people want to do whatever in front of a camera and others want to get off on watching that then who are you to tell them they can't? You don't like it or morally object to it? Then don't watch it. Sure if there's some case of abuse or forced coercion you have a point but that definitely doesn't have to be. There's no point in projecting your own moral agenda on society in this debate. This is about two individuals in a relationship with a problem concerning porn. Whether you or anyone else thinks porn is 'right' or 'wrong' is rather irrelevant. The OP and her husbands opinion do affect this but I don't see either one bringing this aspect of the problem up.


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

east2west said:


> My advice to you is to do what I did.
> 
> Just tell her you look at porn and you aren't going to stop ever.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice but think I'm shooting myself in the foot with that approach. You see my girlfriend isn't 'hard lined' about porn either. Sure she doesn't like that I watch it but it's not that porn conflicts severely with her morals/ideals or that she thinks porn equals to cheating with a real person. The main reason is some insecurity and some jealousy and because her reasons are so human and she doesn't use anger or guilt-tripping on me at all I think it's fair that I do my share by not watching porn for the time being.

She's come a long way and told me that were going to discuss the issue soon (like as in a couple weeks/months). I can wait that long. The last thing I want is her to become is an determined anti-porn ranter because she thinks I value it above her feelings.

But I'll never be as stupid as to go into a relationship without making sure there's no porn issues in it if we ever break up. I've dealt with it one time, it's too much trouble to do it again.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Me too! I know this to be true. I never meant to say that sexual urges are objectification, just that reducing women (or men) to that one function is.


Objectification has a very specific meaning in psychology.

Objectification theory posits that "...girls and women are typically acculturated to internalize and observer's perspective as a primary view of their physical selves." (Fredrickson & Roberts 1997)

This can in turn lead to an array of mental health risks that disproportionately affect women including unipolar depression anorexia and bulimia. It's a serious issue and it's too bad that pop-culture has bastardized the term. 

Objectification theory is not about being used for the pleasure or material gain of someone else. That happens just as much to men as to women.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> This assumes that men are all watching porn because they want to see some naked T&A.
> 
> This is what we're talking about. The anti-porn brigade makes these sweeping generalizations that totally dimiss the fact that people watch porn all for different reasons.
> 
> ...


While I don't understand, I think I can say that I "get" this. I get that men want variety. I get that our sexual urges change. However, this is an incredibly grey area. The last sentence could be used to justify affairs, flirting with someone who isn't your spouse, etc. Where is the line "forsake all others" _actually_ drawn? Because it seems to me(and I intend no judgment here) that all this is is an attempt to push the boundaries of fidelity as far as they will stretch without going over. 

I agree that we need honesty. If a man draws the line at "I can look but not touch", then he needs to say so to the woman before marriage. Otherwise she could end up believing that she will be his exclusive sexual partner and fantasy, and wind up p*ssed off when she sees him either viewing porn or jacking off to it. Now, again, I don't see porn use as the equivalent of an affair(unless it's replacing the wife in the sexual relationship); I _do_ see it as temporarily adding another person into the marriage bed. 

So long as there is consent between both that watching porn is acceptable to them, I can't say that I have a complaint. 

Also, just because the men and women in porn are paid a substantial amount of money, doesn't make it ethical. Technically, that's prostitution; getting paid to have sex with someone else.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> While I don't understand, I think I can say that I "get" this. I get that men want variety. I get that our sexual urges change. However, this is an incredibly grey area. The last sentence could be used to justify affairs, flirting with someone who isn't your spouse, etc. Where is the line "forsake all others" _actually_ drawn? Because it seems to me(and I intend no judgment here) that all this is is an attempt to push the boundaries of fidelity as far as they will stretch without going over.


Cheaters will use any, and every, excuse to justify their affairs.

This isn't a grey area at all for people who have been honest, and upfront. The "forsake all others" line is drawn wherever the couple mutually decides it's drawn. 

For me, and my wife, porn usage has nothing to do with fidelity. At all. So whatever issues might creep up in regards to porn, it won't involve anybody making accusations of pushing the lines of fidelity further.

The line would, of course, be totally different for another couple.



Created2Write said:


> I agree that we need honesty. If a man draws the line at "I can look but not touch", then he needs to say so to the woman before marriage. Otherwise she could end up believing that she will be his exclusive sexual partner and fantasy, and wind up p*ssed off when she sees him either viewing porn or jacking off to it. Now, again, I don't see porn use as the equivalent of an affair(unless it's replacing the wife in the sexual relationship); I _do_ see it as temporarily adding another person into the marriage bed.
> 
> So long as there is consent between both that watching porn is acceptable to them, I can't say that I have a complaint.


Agreed.



Created2Write said:


> Also, just because the men and women in porn are paid a substantial amount of money, doesn't make it ethical. Technically, that's prostitution; getting paid to have sex with someone else.


I certainly wouldn't call the porn industry "ethical".

But neither is my industry, the entertainment industry. 

Nor is Walmart.

Nor is Big Food.

Nor are the practices of most big businesses.

All of our lives are stuffed with the regular, mundane, seemingly inconsequential intermingling with unethical businesses. One has to pick their poison. Sure one can decide to boycott porn for "ethical" reasons, but it reeks of hypocrisy if they're stopping by Walmart, sitting on "Made in *Fillintheblankwithcountrywhereworksareroutinelyexploited*" furniture, and chowing down on chicken wings taken from animal that was farmed in abject misery.

The "ethical" question is a muddy one, at best.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Cheaters will use any, and every, excuse to justify their affairs.
> 
> This isn't a grey area at all for people who have been honest, and upfront. The "forsake all others" line is drawn wherever the couple mutually decides it's drawn.
> 
> ...


I can, at least, somewhat agree with this. 



> I certainly wouldn't call the porn industry "ethical".
> 
> But neither is my industry, the entertainment industry.
> 
> ...


True. 

My point wasn't about the ethics, my point was about the prostitution. Getting paid to have sex with someone _is_ technically prostitution, whether it's a man or a woman. I just don't think that is something that should be supported. And watching porn _is_ supporting prostitution.



> All of our lives are stuffed with the regular, mundane, seemingly inconsequential intermingling with unethical businesses. One has to pick their poison. Sure one can decide to boycott porn for "ethical" reasons, but it reeks of hypocrisy if they're stopping by Walmart, sitting on "Made in *Fillintheblankwithcountrywhereworksareroutinelyexploited*" furniture, and chowing down on chicken wings taken from animal that was farmed in abject misery.


So...in your mind prostitution is no worse than shopping at Walmart? No, you didn't say that outright but that is exactly what you seem to be implying.

We could go around in circles naming various unethical institutions, but that doesn't negate the fact that pornography _is_ a form of prostitution. Nor does it mean that just because our world is unethical that we are somehow exempt from doing the right thing, and trying our best to be ethical in a world that isn't. As a professing Christian, I think you can, at least, understand that. 

Supporting porn by viewing it, buying it, encouraging it, is also supporting the idea of prostitution. So what if they volunteered to get into the business? So do many prostitutes. So do strippers. It doesn't make the lifestyle appropriate. 

Anyway, this conversation is reaching the end for me. I'm incredibly passionate about the topic and I think I've said my piece.


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Is it going to _hurt_ you not to view porn? Because that's the difference; if a wife is uncomfortable with her husband viewing porn, even after they have both discussed it and heard each other out, then the fact that he does view it is not only going to hurt her emotionally, but it effects the trust of the relationship. And since it wouldn't hurt anyone to kick porn out of their lives, yes, I think the man should give it up if it's that big of a deal.
> 
> And if the answer is yes, not viewing porn would hurt, then doesn't that mean they have an addiction, or are heading toward it?


Just because it sucks to stop doing something for no good reason other than that your partner has some odd quirck with it doesn't mean it is in addiction. Fill in any of the things I enjoy in live, obliterate them completely so that I can never do it again and you bet I will be disappointed and sad. What's so alien about that?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> While I don't understand, I think I can say that I "get" this. I get that men want variety. I get that our sexual urges change. However, this is an incredibly grey area. The last sentence could be used to justify affairs, flirting with someone who isn't your spouse, etc. Where is the line "forsake all others" _actually_ drawn? Because it seems to me(and I intend no judgment here) that all this is is an attempt to push the boundaries of fidelity as far as they will stretch without going over.


Created,
I understand and agree with some of what you are saying, but the rationale behind this paragraph is a bit off in my opinion.

Porn useage can be seen as a type of sublimation. [ I hope that's the correct term. lol!]

So that because men [ as well as women ] have always liked variety, instead of cheating, they view porn.

Most women sublimate with romance novels and soap operas.

[ PS, I hope sublimation is the correct psychological term !]

Also, there are many different categories or types of porn. Not all porn is penetrative PIV sex between a man and woman.
For example, if you Google " non nude porn" you will be surprised. Basically its just women modelling in skimpy clothing.
It is not a simple matter.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Created,
> I understand and agree with some of what you are saying, but the rationale behind this paragraph is a bit off in my opinion.
> 
> Porn useage can be seen as a type of sublimation. [ I hope that's the correct term. lol!]
> ...


I get the rationale. I just don't agree with it. Also, I'm just as much against romance novels and soap operas as I am against porn, fyi. Maybe my view is too simplistic for some, but why not spend the time and energy it would take viewing porn and masturbating, and use it on your wife? Some say masturbation is easier. Totally understandable. Why not masturbate to pornographic pictures of your spouse? _That_ is what I don't get. The answer I've been getting is that it's not about the wives...which isn't really an answer at all.

Ugh....lol. I said I'd be done!


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

What you're suggesting is probably as helpful as advising a sex-starved married man to rub one out to porn. They just don't add like that - they are not substitutes of each other. I see you really don't understand.

Have a nice day.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Why not masturbate to pornographic pictures of your spouse? _That_ is what I don't get. The answer I've been getting is that it's not about the wives...which isn't really an answer at all.
> 
> Ugh....lol. I said I'd be done!


You do realize that many, perhaps even most wives will not pose naked in front of a camera for their husbands, much less pornographically? I tried once. Do you have any idea how hard it is to swallow a camera, even a small one?

I've been hanging around user forums for almost as long as the internet has existed in one form or another, but this place has more than the usual share of folks who don't seem to understand that their experience in life is representative of only a small slice of the whole.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> Maybe my view is too simplistic for some, but why not spend the time and energy it would take viewing porn and masturbating, and use it on your wife? Some say masturbation is easier. Totally understandable.


Well for many men, the answer is simple: They want sex four times a week and their wives want sex four times a year


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Well for many men, the answer is simple: They want sex four times a week and their wives want sex four times a year


Ever since my wife and I settled on the 365 day week, we've been in perfect agreement.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I get the rationale. I just don't agree with it. Also, I'm just as much against romance novels and soap operas as I am against porn, fyi. Maybe my view is too simplistic for some, but why not spend the time and energy it would take viewing porn and masturbating, and use it on your wife? Some say masturbation is easier. Totally understandable. Why not masturbate to pornographic pictures of your spouse? _That_ is what I don't get. The answer I've been getting is that it's not about the wives...which isn't really an answer at all.
> 
> Ugh....lol. I said I'd be done!


Ok,
I understand your position and respect your passion.
Neither do I think your view is simplistic.
My wife was something like you until she realized that there was actually porn for women.
We looked at it together and it turned her on quite a lot.
After sometime it just got stale and we simply packed them in a drawer and moved on to another phase of our sex life.

My guess is that as your marriage matures , you will probably get a better or wider understanding of men's sexuality.

But I understand and respect your views.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Objectification has a very specific meaning in psychology.
> 
> Objectification theory posits that "...girls and women are typically acculturated to internalize and observer's perspective as a primary view of their physical selves." (Fredrickson & Roberts 1997)
> 
> This can in turn lead to an array of mental health risks that disproportionately affect women including unipolar depression anorexia and bulimia. It's a serious issue and it's too bad that pop-culture has bastardized the term.


Actually, I don't believe that the term "objectification" is misused / bastardized in this context. One of the problems that many women have with porn is that it reduces a woman to an automaton with three holes and a pair of hands whose sole purpose is to gratify a man's fantasies.

The late Professor of Psychiatry, Robert J Stoller (Psycho Analytical Theorist and Researcher) referenced this view when he suggested that:-
_
"...pornography can be categorized as a fetish in that images are being viewed that are not alive or do not involve interacting with an entire human being. This is part of what is referred to as the objectification of women through pornography. In other words, in the pornography, the female body is viewed as a commodity, as a thing rather as a human being."_

Whilst this doesn't bother some women, it does bother others quite deeply...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Wouldn't the male actor be reduced to a hard penis as well? Are they not both objectified? Or do you assume the male actor is enjoying it while the female actor must not be?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Wouldn't the male actor be reduced to a hard penis as well? Are they not both objectified? Or do you assume the male actor is enjoying it while the female actor must not be?


Yes, I think he is. But his role is not one of apparent subordination, nor one that most men appear to object to. It is more a role of dominance and power...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Really? Half the time they don't even show his face. Basically any hard **** will do as long as its big and hairless. In most cases they appear to enjoy it equally if differently. In some cases the man is more objectified than the woman. Just because he the penetrator and not the penetratee doesn't mean she's objectified more than him.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Yes, I think he is. *But his role is not one of apparent subordination, nor one that most men appear to object to. It is more a role of dominance and power...*


Maybe you need to go behind the scenes of a porn production.

The only people that have the power in porn are the producers.

Ever wonder why most men in hardcore porn have to jerk off themselves in order to " finish?"

BTW, the producer gives him a signal when its time to " finish."
He has to wait until that signal before he can allow his climax to start building. If he messes up, no more contracts.

Picture yourself as a man having to act a certain role in a porn production, take instructions from the producers , position your body in an uncomfortable position so that the camera would get the " right " shot.
Having to repeat the same act and angle a couple of times in order to get it right .
Have sex with a woman whom you know is not aroused.

Do you think you could still keep a rock hard erection after all that?

Males are generally at a disadvantage in porn production because the woman 's chances of getting another contract is based on her natural assets and to a lesser extent her skill.

The man's chances are based solely on his skill. Meaning his ability to have sex in front of strangers, stop on cue, change angles , start again, all this whilst keeping his erection rigid.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Cletus said:


> You do realize that many, perhaps even most wives will not pose naked in front of a camera for their husbands, much less pornographically? I tried once. Do you have any idea how hard it is to swallow a camera, even a small one?
> 
> I've been hanging around user forums for almost as long as the internet has existed in one form or another, but this place has more than the usual share of folks who don't seem to understand that their experience in life is representative of only a small slice of the whole.


I realize that my experiences are different than everyone elses, and yes, I also realize that not all wives would be open to those kinds of photos being taken of them. _Why_ aren't they, though? Could it be that a large part of it is that they don't like associating themselves with the porn their husbands look at?

My experience was vastly different. On our wedding night, when I came out of the bathroom in a corset that I'd bought that morning(hubs had mentioned he loved corsets), instead of grabbing me and making love to me as passionately as he could, my husband grabbed a camera and spent _three hours[_ just taking pictures. The pictures gradually got more explicit, until at last he set down the camera and we had at it. Since then, pictures, videos, sexy texts, stripteasing, etc. have been a big part of our sex life, and one reason I enjoy those things so much is knowing that there aren't other avenues he uses to get the same things.

Not all women are the same, I grant you. But this is merely my experience, and since there are a few women here who definitely seem to agree, I'd say it's worth considering.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Really? Half the time they don't even show his face. Basically any hard **** will do as long as its big and hairless. In most cases they appear to enjoy it equally if differently. In some cases the man is more objectified than the woman. Just because he the penetrator and not the penetratee doesn't mean she's objectified more than him.


Most men aren't disturbed by a man's role in pornography, however, many women are disturbed by a woman's role in it. I'm simply trying to explain why this may be.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Maybe you need to go behind the scenes of a porn production.
> 
> The only people that have the power in porn are the producers.
> 
> ...


And you still support the industry? :scratchhead:This sounds _horrible_. It sounds completely unhealthy, in terms of mental and sexual health for a man.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

If you regard a woman's worth solely as what she can or can't do with her body, and how that body can be used to gratify you, then I would say that you objectify women. 

Men who do not view porn can still very much objectify women, inversely men who view and enjoy porn can still have a very rounded and healthy view of a woman's worth.

Truthfully, in porn i have seen women be more realistic in appearance than in general fashion and entertainment media. Meaning i have seen women with small boobs, women with acne, women who have differing body types, mature women, etc. I sometimes think porn can demystify that women have to look a certain way to be sexy and desired.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Most men aren't disturbed by a man's role in pornography, however, many women are disturbed by a woman's role in it. I'm simply trying to explain why this may be.


I agree with this. For some reason, i could not like your post. (got it)


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> So...in your mind prostitution is no worse than shopping at Walmart? No, you didn't say that outright but that is exactly what you seem to be implying.


Actually, no I did not imply that. You made the link that porn performers are prostitutes, and then supposed that I agreed. I never made such a link that porn equals prostitution, so I never implied anything. You did.

Also are we really getting into "which sins are worst" territory? 



Created2Write said:


> As a professing Christian, I think you can, at least, understand that.


Of course I can.

But as a professing Christian yourself, surely you also realize that you shouldn't be leveling sins, correct? Are you applying the same level of moralizing, and outrage, to all the ethically unsound areas in your own life, before raging against this one? Because we're cutting awful close to speck and moot territory...


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> On our wedding night, when I came out of the bathroom in a corset that I'd bought that morning(hubs had mentioned he loved corsets), instead of grabbing me and making love to me as passionately as he could, my husband grabbed a camera and spent _three hours[_ just taking pictures. The pictures gradually got more explicit, until at last he set down the camera and we had at it. Since then, pictures, videos, sexy texts, stripteasing, etc. have been a big part of our sex life, and one reason I enjoy those things so much is knowing that there aren't other avenues he uses to get the same things.


Mr Cosmos mentioned photography some time back, but I didn't know him well enough back then. You've just given me the idea that perhaps it's time to revist the subject


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> IWhy not masturbate to pornographic pictures of your spouse? That is what I don't get


So if a man looks at porn because he enjoys watching two or more women having sex, orgies, or just to see a wide variety in different women...

How is a naked picture of his wife going to fulfill that desire? What is she going to, shoot scenes with other women? Do a video, or a pic, featuring her being overwhelmed by c*ck? 

This is what I'm saying. Disagree with porn, I actually respect that, and understand why many have a problem with it. But it's incredibly naive to think that people, men and women, can just take a nude shot of their spouse and that's going to somehow be the answer to their desires for porn.

We are long past the days where the primary porn outlet were a couple of nudie shots in Playboy or Penthouse. And even then, many, many men enjoyed the variety of beautiful women seen in the pages. A nude shot of their wife, while nice, sure wasn't likely to suddenly make them throw the T&A mags away.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I do not think that you really know what most men are disturbed or not disturbed by. Do you think that most men are comfortable with comparing themselves to male porn actors? Attractive men and women are objectified in the media. Television, magazines everywhere.

Porn does not objectify these people. People objectify these people.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Yes, I think he is. But his role is not one of apparent subordination, nor one that most men appear to object to. It is more a role of dominance and power...


There is plenty of porn featuring men in positions of subordination, humiliation, and objectification.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> And you still support the industry? :scratchhead:This sounds _horrible_. It sounds completely unhealthy, in terms of mental and sexual health for a man.



And I can show you many other industries that you unknowingly support that's infinitely worse than porn.

Do you eat bananas?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I do not think that you really know what most men are disturbed or not disturbed by.



If I implied that I did, I apologize. That wasn't my intention.



> Do you think that most men are comfortable with comparing themselves to male porn actors?


I don't know. I am trying to explain things from a woman's perspective. However, I gain the impression (and, again, this is only an impression) that they aren't, because if they were they wouldn't bother watching it.




> Porn does not objectify these people. People objectify these people.


Agreed. Porn is just a method with which to do it.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

It's not that men aren't objectified in porn.

It's just that, as usual, we live in a culture where the pendulum has swung so far in this respect that male sexuality, and sexual issues, aren't taken as seriously, and aren't cared about as much, especially by women.

Note that in these anti-porn rants on TAM it always comes down to women's outrage; how women feel about their bodies, how women feel about the women in porn, how women feel about men's feelings about porn, so on, so forth. 

There are double standards that work against both sexes, but in this regard it's working typically against men. The male performers aren't defended by the women, only the female ones. And this is true despite the fact that men in porn, on average, make far less money then women, have a shorter shelf life, and endure the brunt of the pressure to make a scene work. While the producers of porn are always the "winners", among performers in porn when actually rule. Of course this industry fact is often overlooked.

It's just another layer to the never ending battle of the sexes. Everybody is jockeying to have their voice be considered the true voice of reason, and right.

What is also missing from this discussion is the ever increasing amount of women who watch porn. It is NOT a "man's medium" anymore.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Most men aren't disturbed by a man's role in pornography, however, many women are disturbed by a woman's role in it. I'm simply trying to explain why this may be.


^^^^
False.

Google


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Actually, no I did not imply that. You made the link that porn performers are prostitutes, and then supposed that I agreed. I never made such a link that porn equals prostitution, so I never implied anything. You did.


Okay, so answer the question: do you think that prostitution is about the same on the ethical scale as shopping at Walmart?



> Also are we really getting into "which sins are worst" territory?


Sin is sin. If something is unethical, it's unethical. I don't believe that certain wrongs are more or less wrong than others, but I _do_ believe that certain wrongs have more intense consequences than others. 

There will _always_ be selfishness in this world because people are selfish. That doesn't negate our responsibility as human beings to do our best to live above the standard that society sets. At least, that's my opinion. And supporting an industry that pays men and women to have sex with each other doesn't seem ethical, and the potential consequences of the people in the videos, the people making them, and the people watching them seem, to me, to be hazardous to their 
overall mental, emotional and sexual health. 

Also, I feel the need to repeat this since it seems to have gone unnoticed: getting paid to have sex with someone is prostitution, no matter how much or how little that payment is. 



> Of course I can.
> 
> But as a professing Christian yourself, surely you also realize that you shouldn't be leveling sins, correct?


I'm not trying to level sins. All sin is the same, as far as rank in how wrong they are is concerned. The consequences, however, can vary drastically. 



> Are you applying the same level of moralizing, and outrage, to all the ethically unsound areas in your own life, before raging against this one? Because we're cutting awful close to speck and moot territory...


Perfection isn't a prerequisite to vocalizing my opinions on something that I believe objectifies both men and women, and demonizes the act of sex by making it merely carnal and emotionless. I'm not perfect, and I have my own issues to deal with. But they are irrelevant here, and they certainly don't disqualify me from standing against a socially accepted industry that, in my opinion, has the potential to ruin numerous lives. You may call that extreme if you wish. You can say I'm responding with too much emotion, if you wish. You can say I'm being irrational and naive, or whatever else you want. I'm not angry or upset, merely impassioned. By one male posters own statement, the process of filming these videos for men is _incredibly_ objectifying and unfortunate. I would think that men would be disturbed by how they're portrayed and what the men go through...


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> Actually, I don't believe that the term "objectification" is misused / bastardized in this context. One of the problems that many women have with porn is that it reduces a woman to an automaton with three holes and a pair of hands whose sole purpose is to gratify a man's fantasies.
> 
> The late Professor of Psychiatry, Robert J Stoller (Psycho Analytical Theorist and Researcher) referenced this view when he suggested that:-
> _
> ...


Cosmos,

The bastardization occurred via the juxtaposition of cause and effect. Objectification is a theory about how women view themselves. The behavior of those around them which precipitates an unbalanced view is a cause, not the effect itself.

I agree that pornography is certainly one of those causes. Another and arguably larger one that pretty much gets a free pass in our society is women's fashion, women's fashion magazines and the women's fashion industry, which promote an impossible, unhealthy, emaciated standard of beauty. 

This might seem like a minor distinction, but the ramifications are not. When cause and effect are juxtaposed, it turns into a blanket condemnation of the male gender _in toto_, because male sexual response is primarily visual and anatomical.

And that's unfair because even Barbara Fredrickson and Tomi-Ann Roberts freely acknowledged that, "..the body is the basis for the distinction between the sexes."


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Cosmos,
> 
> The bastardization occurred via the juxtaposition of cause and effect. Objectification is a theory about how women view themselves. The behavior of those around them which precipitates an unbalanced view is a cause, not the effect itself.
> 
> ...


Not only is it unfair.
Its biased and selective.
That's why the great porn debate continues to go around in circles , the anti crusaders being unable to deliver that knock out punch.
There are glaring double standards.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> So if a man looks at porn because he enjoys watching two or more women having sex, orgies, or just to see a wide variety in different women...
> 
> How is a naked picture of his wife going to fulfill that desire? What is she going to, shoot scenes with other women? Do a video, or a pic, featuring her being overwhelmed by c*ck?
> 
> This is what I'm saying. Disagree with porn, I actually respect that, and understand why many have a problem with it. But it's incredibly naive to think that people, men and women, can just take a nude shot of their spouse and that's going to somehow be the answer to their desires for porn.


Okay, I get that. I think it's unfortunate, but I get it. I don't understand why someone would ever want to be fulfilled by someone other than their spouse, but I get the logic behind this. I don't agree, but I get it.



> We are long past the days where the primary porn outlet were a couple of nudie shots in Playboy or Penthouse. And even then, many, many men enjoyed the variety of beautiful women seen in the pages. A nude shot of their wife, while nice, sure wasn't likely to suddenly make them throw the T&A mags away.


Which is unfortunate. For me, I could go out and flirt with a bunch of other men, but if it doesn't _mean_ anything, it would leave me feeling empty and shallow. That's why I only flirt with my husband, and that's also why it hurts so much when he doesn't choose to flirt with me, even though he's not flirting with other women either. Flirting with my husband _means_ so much because he's the one I love, and I know I'm the one he loves. So while flirting with others may bring me momentary satisfaction, it won't ever last because they aren't the one I love. 

So why do it? Why flirt with others? What's the gain? In my mind, there isn't one. 

I don't presume to be a man, nor do I presume to understand the way a man's mind works. Actually, I'm totally comfortable admitting that I truly do not understand this at all.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> Mr Cosmos mentioned photography some time back, but I didn't know him well enough back then. You've just given me the idea that perhaps it's time to revist the subject


Honestly, it was one of the most romantic aspects of our honeymoon. He used to ask me to pose all the time. He asked me to strip tease at least once a week. My self-esteem shot through the roof during those times. We've mad a handful of videos too...that was a blast! It was awkward for me, re-watching them...lol. He loves them though.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Okay, so answer the question: do you think that prostitution is about the same on the ethical scale as shopping at Walmart?


I think that I, in my life, chose not to level and lobby sins and transgressions like this.

If you shop at Walmart knowing full well that it's very existence means you are playing willing party to human exploitation around the world, no I don't believe you have any right to stand in judgement of anybody, a prostitute or otherwise. Frankly I'm beginning to wonder what gives you, or me, or anyone the right? 

I reserve this kind of outrage for situations where the parties aren't consenting (i.e. child prostitution, human trafficking). What a prostitute and a john, two consenting adults, do is none of my business at all. 

The only reason you find it easier to live with exploiting other people is because we live in a nation where the wholesale exploitation of others for our own persona comfort is socially acceptable. 

Prostitution is not.


Created2Write said:


> Sin is sin. If something is unethical, it's unethical. I don't believe that certain wrongs are more or less wrong than others, but I _do_ believe that certain wrongs have more intense consequences than others.


The intensity of a consequence, in a practical, real world way, depends solely on the given culture. It could be seen as sinful, and offensive, in certain countries for you to be on this board, talking to me, a man. 

The consequence from a spiritual, Christian perspective is simple; In Christ, all sins are the same, and all sins are washed. In spiritual death, the state of sin damns, not any one given sin. You'd be as likely, without the regenerating power of Christ's sacrifice, to be spiritually dead living an "ethical" lifestyle as you would being a shoplifting, murderous prostitute who sold crack on the side.

"Sin" would be the root, the individual "sins" would be nothing but the manifestation.

Which is why Christianity is built on the back of a perfect Christ, not the actions of imperfect man.

But that's a whole other topic, and I won't derail down that road any longer.





Created2Write said:


> Also, I feel the need to repeat this since it seems to have gone unnoticed: getting paid to have sex with someone is prostitution, no matter how much or how little that payment is.


No, actually, what happens in pornography is not the definition of prostitution, historically, or legally.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Which is unfortunate. For me, I could go out and flirt with a bunch of other men, but if it doesn't _mean_ anything, it would leave me feeling empty and shallow. That's why I only flirt with my husband,


Okay, this has opened a whole other can of worms for me. So why not, let me ask the men in the room . . .

Is flirting with another woman the same as viewing porn in that it is harmless male behavior that does not constitute cheating nor the desire to cheat?


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Also, I feel the need to repeat this since it seems to have gone unnoticed: getting paid to have sex with someone is prostitution, no matter how much or how little that payment is.


As a legal matter, at least in the United States, this statement is incorrect with respect to non-obscene pornography, which is protected speech under the First Amendment of the Constitution.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

jaquen said:


> There is plenty of porn featuring men in positions of subordination, humiliation, and objectification.


I suppose there is, Jaquen, and I would find that equally as disturbing as the porn I've seen. When it comes to things like subordination and humiliation, gender is immaterial to me.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Ina said:


> Okay, this has opened a whole other can of worms for me. So why not, let me ask the men in the room . . .
> 
> Is flirting with another woman the same as viewing porn in that it is harmless male behavior that does not constitute cheating nor the desire to cheat?



What do you define as " flirting?"


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Ina said:


> Okay, this has opened a whole other can of worms for me. So why not, let me ask the men in the room . . .
> 
> Is flirting with another woman the same as viewing porn in that it is harmless male behavior that does not constitute cheating nor the desire to cheat?


Depends on the circumstances in my view. Flirting with another woman when you both know that nothing's going to happen and neither one intends for anything to happen can be innocent fun. But it can be a fine and dangerous line, so overall I'd probably say flirting is less innocent than occasionally viewing porn.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> It's not that men aren't objectified in porn.
> 
> It's just that, as usual, we live in a culture where the pendulum has swung so far in this respect that male sexuality, and sexual issues, aren't taken as seriously, and aren't cared about as much, especially by women.


This I agree with. One reason I despise modern feminism is that it causes women to feel so in control of themselves, that even in marriage, they feel entitled to reject their husband's need for sexual fulfillment, and yet they expect the guy to remain entirely faithful to her. It baffles me. 

I am definitely in 100% support of learning, understanding and accepting the differences and similarities in men and women's sexuality. There can be no true fulfillment in any aspect of a relationship until both sides of understood, at least. And by many women these days, there seems to be an entire lack of desire to even _want_ to understand the depth of a man's sexual need. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the whole, "Sex is just the icing on the cake" and "It's not really a need" bull. Unfortunately, it seems to be widely accepted amongst Christian women more so than non-Christian women.



> Note that in these anti-porn rants on TAM it always comes down to women's outrage; how women feel about their bodies, how women feel about the women in porn, how women feel about men's feelings about porn, so on, so forth.
> 
> There are double standards that work against both sexes, but in this regard it's working typically against men. The male performers aren't defended by the women, only the female ones. And this is true despite the fact that men in porn, on average, make far less money then women, have a shorter shelf life, and endure the brunt of the pressure to make a scene work. While the producers of porn are always the "winners", among performers in porn when actually rule. Of course this industry fact is often overlooked.


....Have you not seen my posts? I have said more than once that porn objectifies both sexes, and given the process that CA gave, in many cases men more so than women.



> It's just another layer to the never ending battle of the sexes. Everybody is jockeying to have their voice be considered the true voice of reason, and right.
> 
> What is also missing from this discussion is the ever increasing amount of women who watch porn. It is NOT a "man's medium" anymore.


No one has called it a "man's meduim"...


----------



## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> What do you define as " flirting?"


Making it known to the other that you find him/her attractive.
Certain suggestive comments that can be deemed as playful.

But my question let me rephrase, how do YOU define flirting, is it harmless, and if so is it the same as . . .


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> Cosmos,
> 
> The bastardization occurred via the juxtaposition of cause and effect. Objectification is a theory about how women view themselves. The behavior of those around them which precipitates an unbalanced view is a cause, not the effect itself.
> 
> ...


No one here has said that women's fashion, etc. _aren't_ just as bad. I, personally, feel the same about women's fashion, the magazines, etc. as I do about porn. But this isn't a discussion about those things, it's a discussion about porn.


----------



## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

The entire concept of it being biological and you are "hard wired" to get a rise out of viewing naked women doesn't equate to healthy under any circumstances or to any degree just because the drive is there and you get the reward in your brain.

We are also biologically programmed(humans and other animals) to seek out the highest caloric foods possible.(sugar especially) back in the day that might have been finding a fig tree.Which also contains many nutrients that we thrive off of to be healthy (vitamins and fiber)..Now we have outdone our own biology and cheap readily availble sugar and fat laden foods are at are fingertips.Its actually an effort to avoid it.Our brain goes "reward reward reward" and we feel satiated if we eat a crispy cream donut or drink coke (sugar water)..Does that mean the more the better?Does that mean its "good" to indulge because after all we are biologically programmed to seek out highest caloric sugar and fat and our brain says its a good thing when we taste it and eat it?

Sugar and sex.Society being saturated with it available and cheap and having the biological survival drive to indulge doesn't mean its a good thing to get as much as we possibly can.

Yeah its biolgical.But we are more than animals sniffing around to barely survive.I do not believe just like I don't need to eat sugar all day that "men' who are visually wired "need' to look at hundreds and hundreds of different women naked and having sex over their lifetime is a biological need .That's over indulgence and gluttony just like if I sat here and ate fries and ice cream all day.

And as to the guys enjoying it? You cant fake arousal(a hard on requires genuine arousal) and you can't fake orgasm so at the very least they get some physical pleasure out of it.Women can be in outright pain and in fact mentally suffering including repulsed but with enough lube and she is a good enough actress she can fake it.arousal and orgasm.

Having said that the suicide rate by the way for male AND female porn workers (prostitutes) is out of proportion higher than that of the general public and get this..its for YOUR pleasure .Not a necessity in any way.Just for your gluttony.

And by the way.I don't eat meat but for eggs and fish.I buy pastured eggs (FREE roaming hens) I have to go out of my way to get and pay over 5 a carton for.Thats ONE thing I try to do to help with uneththical businesses.Abstaining from porn can not be compared unless you ARE an addict.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I realize that my experiences are different than everyone elses, and yes, I also realize that not all wives would be open to those kinds of photos being taken of them. _Why_ aren't they, though? Could it be that a large part of it is that they don't like associating themselves with the porn their husbands look at?


I just don't even know what to say here. There are probably 10,000 reasons why any individual person is unwilling to get nasty on camera for their spouse. The reasons are as varied as the people to whom they apply.

My wife has by her own admission never seen a pornographic production in her life. She can hardly stand to watch a steamy R rated movie. She came in to the relationship that way. I did not create her.



> My experience was vastly different.
> Not all women are the same, I grant you. But this is merely my experience, and since there are a few women here who definitely seem to agree, I'd say it's worth considering.


The women who frequent this forum are not, I repeat NOT representative of the population at large. There is a huge sampling bias towards the sexually liberated in a public forum which talks about nothing but sex in marriage.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

We can muddy the water all we want by calling out companies that are unethical to shop at, or other industries which also objectify men and women, or children...It doesn't change a thing to me. Getting paid to have sex with someone, consentual or not, is unethical in my opinion. Sex shouldn't be reduced to that, but again, my opinion. Just because they're two adults who consent doesn't mean we, as a society, should accept it. 

Anyway, I really am out this time. I feel that I understand this subject as much as can stand to right now. Jaquen, thank you for explaining your take on things. I thank God I have a husband who shares my view, and I'm happy you have a wife who shares yours. I really haven't been angry or upset, and I apologize if ever I came across as such.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> Depends on the circumstances in my view. Flirting with another woman when you both know that nothing's going to happen and neither one intends for anything to happen can be innocent fun. But it can be a fine and dangerous line, so overall I'd probably say flirting is less innocent than occasionally viewing porn.


Yeah. If you accidentally fall in love with a porn star, you're S.O.L. unless you're some kind of stalker. 

If you accidentally fall for the girl in the office because you were flirting with her, you can wreck your life in an afternoon.

The difference between you and a magazine or monitor and you and a breathing, thinking person is not small.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

hahaha Dallas is back.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Ina said:


> Making it known to the other that you find him/her attractive.
> Certain suggestive comments that can be deemed as playful.
> 
> But my question let me rephrase, how do YOU define flirting, is it harmless, and if so is it the same as . . .


My definition is simply complimenting the opposite sex on their looks , wit , ability or whatever in a manner that suggest a certain level of familiarity.

As long as no personal or marital boundaries are being crossed, I'm ok with it.
If its ofensive to me I simply tell them to stop.

The INTENT of the activity is what matters.

I don't see how that equates with porn usage.

People should be honest with themselves.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> The entire concept of it being biological and you are "hard wired" to get a rise out of viewing naked women doesn't equate to healthy under any circumstances or to any degree just because the drive is there and you get the reward in your brain.
> 
> We are also biologically programmed(humans and other animals) to seek out the highest caloric foods possible.(sugar especially) back in the day that might have been finding a fig tree.Which also contains many nutrients that we thrive off of to be healthy (vitamins and fiber)..Now we have outdone our own biology and cheap readily availble sugar and fat laden foods are at are fingertips.Its actually an effort to avoid it.Our brain goes "reward reward reward" and we feel satiated if we eat a crispy cream donut or drink coke (sugar water)..Does that mean the more the better?Does that mean its "good" to indulge because after all we are biologically programmed to seek out highest caloric sugar and fat and our brain says its a good thing when we taste it and eat it?
> 
> ...


Nobody said its a biological _need._
Is alcohol a biological need?
No
But we all indulge in alcohol, some to a great extent, some to a lesser extent. What's the difference ?[ Alcohol is by the way, a by product of sugar. We are more hooked on sugar than we want to admit. Much worse than porn IMO. It causes death ]


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jaquen said:


> There is plenty of porn featuring men in positions of subordination, humiliation, and objectification.


This whole line of argument blows my mind. Just because porn also objectifies men, and reduces them to the size of their c0ck, it's all just equal opportunity and everything's good?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Always Alone, I think people would be more inclined to consider your arguments if you weren't so one sided. You sound very anti-male.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> And as to the guys enjoying it? You cant fake arousal(a hard on requires genuine arousal) and you can't fake orgasm so at the very least they get some physical pleasure out of it.


The usual ignorance about male sexuality.

A "hard on" does not always equate to arousal. Many male sexual abuse victims are mired in guilt because, despite their mental and emotional disgust, their penises reacted to their abusers. Male victims have reported erections, and ejaculations, during assaults, just as there are female victims who've reported orgasming during rapes. 

Porn is fantasy. It's not shot in real time. Many porn shoots can take days to reach completion. You do not see all the behind the scenes fluffing, erectile drugs, and lost erections. All you see is about 15 minutes of a well edited film that makes it look like men are maintaining raging hard ons from top to bottom, regardless of the woman. In real life many men are set up with women in porn scenes where they have ZERO desire for her.

Money shots are often shot totally out of sequence with sex shots. You have absolutely no idea if he's orgasming because of arousal to his co-star, or enjoyment of their work together.

There is so much ignorance surrounding how the male body works that it's a living shame.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

always_alone said:


> This whole line of argument blows my mind. Just because porn also objectifies men, and reduces them to the size of their c0ck, it's all just equal opportunity and everything's good?


In a world of consenting adults, including actors who are paid to perform and customers who pay to consume their products, what other answer would you like to hear? 

When you're king, you can outlaw pornography, makeup, hair cuts, tight fitting clothes, false eyelashes, implants, and every other facet of daily life that can be even remotely construed as a means of objectification. 

Or you can move to Iran.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> No one here has said that women's fashion, etc. _aren't_ just as bad. I, personally, feel the same about women's fashion, the magazines, etc. as I do about porn. But this isn't a discussion about those things, it's a discussion about porn.


The discussion has (predictably) branched out into the harmful effects of porn and the term "objectification" was brought up.

The example of women's fashion was not brought up to conflate the issue; it was brought up to help make the point that male appreciation for the female form is not objectification in and of itself.

Neither is objectification about being used, demeaned, manipulated, etc. for the selfish pleasure of someone else, although that is certainly wrong too. [Edited to add] Unless it's Fifty Shades of Grey, in which case it's apparently okay


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

What did we do before fat and sugar were easy to get?Before we could get MORE calories than we need in one sitting and with a few ounces of processed cheese and sugar water?

We relished a pear.And 60% of us weren't overweight and many of that morbildly obese.Do you know at the rate we are going one in three children born today WILL develop type 2 diabetes?And its our "bioligical drive" and the reward we get for being "successful" in having the highest sugar and fat foods available?

Sex is also nothing to play around with.And the abuses that do and will occur to satisfy to gluttons.

I am angry as well JUST as angry at the animal abuses..It makes me want to PUKE..In fact I HAVE puked over my despair over that chicken wing someone mentioned earilier that most like came from horrible inHUMANE treatment of an innocent animal.But my money where my mouth is I do not eat it.NEXT..sure I could get a "rise" out of porn I do NOT watch it.


Lets start a petition against wal-mart I'll JOIN!!!I shop at my local Kroger and yes I admit some staples at Wal-Mart.I'll give it up ..

To try and make the world a better place though takes SACRIFICE.And I'm sorry most don't seem interested.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Really? Half the time they don't even show his face. Basically any hard **** will do as long as its big and hairless. In most cases they appear to enjoy it equally if differently. In some cases the man is more objectified than the woman. Just because he the penetrator and not the penetratee doesn't mean she's objectified more than him.


Except that the reason that you don't see the male person is that the whole script is designed from the male point of view. So the man is "any man" so that literally any man can step in and pretend that it is him doing the deed. 

While i am in no way in favour of objectifying men either, I do think being given the prime point of view, with the focus being on the male orgasm, is not quite as degrading.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

A "hard on" does not always equate to arousal. Many male sexual abuse victims are mired in guilt because, despite their mental and emotional disgust, their penises reacted to their abusers. Male victims have reported erections, and ejaculations, during assaults, just as there are female victims who've reported orgasming during rapes. END!


O.K even more reason porn shouldn't be viewed for others pleasure.Who could enjoy that?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> We can muddy the water all we want by calling out companies that are unethical to shop at, or other industries which also objectify men and women, or children...It doesn't change a thing to me. Getting paid to have sex with someone, consentual or not, is unethical in my opinion. Sex shouldn't be reduced to that, but again, my opinion. Just because they're two adults who consent doesn't mean we, as a society, should accept it.
> 
> _Anyway, I really am out this time. I feel that I understand this subject as much as can stand to right now._


Me, too. I try to leave these sort of threads alone, but will endeavour to try a little harder in the future...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Nobody said its a biological _need._
> Is alcohol a biological need?
> No
> But we all indulge in alcohol, some to a great extent, some to a lesser extent. What's the difference ?[ Alcohol is by the way, a by product of sugar. We are more hooked on sugar than we want to admit. Much worse than porn IMO. It causes death ]


Sugar has done more to damage, cripple, and destroy human beings in the modern world than porn could ever hope to do.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

always_alone said:


> This whole line of argument blows my mind. Just because porn also objectifies men, and reduces them to the size of their c0ck, it's all just equal opportunity and everything's good?


Did I say the objectification is limited to reducing men to the size of their c0ck?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Except that the reason that you don't see the male person is that the whole script is designed from the male point of view. So the man is "any man" so that literally any man can step in and pretend that it is him doing the deed.
> 
> While i am in no way in favour of objectifying men either, I do think being given the prime point of view, with the focus being on the male orgasm, is not quite as degrading.


You're wrong. You are demonstrating that you have absolutely no empathy for the male point of view. You have no ability to put yourself in our shoes. You have no idea what men find degrading. I suppose that's ok. After all, it's all about YOU and what YOU find degrading.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Me, too. I try to leave these sort of threads alone, but will endeavour to try a little harder in the future...


Just when I thought I was out . . . they pull me back in


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Or you can move to Iran.


Iran would not be my first choice of places to go to escape the shoddy treatment of women!

And I don't want to censor porn or stop consenting adults from exploring their sexuality.

I want to express my rage and frustration at the gleeful way that men defend their entitlement to treat women like sexual objects because "that's just how they are"

And, yes, I can see that I am coming across as very anti-male. I didn't start this way, but when 99% of you are claiming that 99% of you are totally entitled to comment rudely on hotties and enjoy the productions of porn regardless of other concerns, i have to say i'm really starting to wonder why i even try.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Nobody said its a biological need.
> Is alcohol a biological need?
> No
> But we all indulge in alcohol, some to a great extent, some to a lesser extent. What's the difference ?[ Alcohol is by the way, a by product of sugar. We are more hooked on sugar than we want to admit. Much worse than porn IMO. It causes death ]


People are in jail for abusing alcohol.There are major restrictions on alcohol including you have to be 21 to have any in most states.I would be arrested for having 2 and 1/2 beers and driving my car in my state.I pay more for a halfway decent bottle of wine or a six pack than some pay for a parade of 17 year olds getting gang banged up the you know what for there 30 seconds of pleasure.

But yes in general?Alcohol is a dangerous drug.It changes not my stance on the rampant over sexualized and abusive industry of porn..

Saying alcohol is legal therefore its O.K to USE and abuse humans for sex to get our rocks off ???..Im not going there ..One thing at a time.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Sugar has done more to damage, cripple, and destroy human beings in the modern world than porn could ever hope to do.


Can you back that up?I mean you say that but.How can you back it up?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I was looking at the "attraction" thread yesterday. I couldn't help but notice that the number one item for women's attraction to men is his height. And some of the most anti porn women on TAM have bragged over and over about the height of their husbands. I'm 5'7" and could never hope to attract such women. How do you think the comments about these tall attractive men make someone like me feel?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You're wrong. You are demonstrating that you have absolutely no empathy for the male point of view. You have no ability to put yourself in our shoes. You have no idea what men find degrading.


This is very interesting to me. I suspect you are right. With all the justifications and support for porn, it never occurred to me that men might find it degrading too. Do you? And if so, how do you shut that off to derive sexual enjoyment from it?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Did I say the objectification is limited to reducing men to the size of their c0ck?


No. I was just citing a rather crude example. I took the argument to be something along the lines of women shouldn't be upset that porn objectifies them because it also objectifies men.

While I can see how men are also objectified, i don't get how this makes everything ok. Two wrongs don't make it right.

Or am I missing something


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Also when was alcohol (a non being) compared to a human being?Lets say..HOW are you hurting the alcohol when you drink it for your pleasure?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

always_alone said:


> This is very interesting to me. I suspect you are right. With all the justifications and support for porn, it never occurred to me that men might find it degrading too. Do you? And if so, how do you shut that off to derive sexual enjoyment from it?


That's a very interesting question. I've been pondering it actually for the last couple days since I started posting on this thread. The answer is, I don't really know.

Personally I self medicated with porn while I was having relationship troubles. Since that has been improving, my use of porn has dropped dramatically. Previously I might have used porn 1-2 times per day on average. Now it's maybe once every 2 weeks. My masturbation has similarly dropped, although not as much. I also use erotica for masturbation. I also find it interesting that the erotica I read is much more degrading than the porn I watch. When I watch porn it is almost always amateur porn with no facials or rough treatment. It's more like regular couples. The erotica I read often involves aspects of sexual deviance. Slavery, adultery etc...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

always_alone said:


> No. I was just citing a rather crude example. I took the argument to be something along the lines of women shouldn't be upset that porn objectifies them because it also objectifies men.
> 
> While I can see how men are also objectified, i don't get how this makes everything ok. Two wrongs don't make it right.
> 
> Or am I missing something


Its all wrong..A guy that's a rape victim getting automatic responses like he did as a victim of child sexual abuse?SICK! that anyone could whack off to that..

Its really low..


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

always_alone said:


> This is very interesting to me. I suspect you are right. With all the justifications and support for porn, it never occurred to me that men might find it degrading too. Do you? And if so, how do you shut that off to derive sexual enjoyment from it?


Some I find degrading, and that porn I simply don't watch. I can't shut off that distinction.

At the risk of having my man card confiscated, I admit to being much more drawn to female oriented porn. The stuff where the people at least pretend to have some level of concern for each other beyond a hook-up. Or even amateur work made by couples in committed relationships who just happen to have an exhibitionist streak.

Degrading is in the eyes of the beholder.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I was looking at the "attraction" thread yesterday. I couldn't help but notice that the number one item for women's attraction to men is his height. And some of the most anti porn women on TAM have bragged over and over about the height of their husbands. I'm 5'7" and could never hope to attract such women. How do you think the comments about these tall attractive men make someone like me feel?


For what it's worth, I do not condone women behaving badly either. I find it very sad how unwilling so many men and women are to look beneath the surface in this overly superficial culture. 

It's just that right now, I'm more angry about what affects my daily life directly.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I was looking at the "attraction" thread yesterday. I couldn't help but notice that the number one item for women's attraction to men is his height. And some of the most anti porn women on TAM have bragged over and over about the height of their husbands. I'm 5'7" and could never hope to attract such women. How do you think the comments about these tall attractive men make someone like me feel?


Guess I need to check that thread out... I have a few choice words to say to the people who say men your height aren't attractive...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

O.K so scene 1!

The male prostitute (paid to have sex man) can get an automatic erection because hes used to getting an erection under duress and being raped and abused earlier on in his life ...Check one "hard on".Female slap some lube on her no matter how dry she is LUBE works and after all she just needs to "moan a little " or a lot no matter how disgusted she is..Proceed to "have sex" ..100's of men watch and whack off..

O.K nothing wrong with that..


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Can you back that up?I mean you say that but.How can you back it up?


Are you serious? Because there is an embarrassment of riches regarding this topic, but if you'd like a primer start here:

Sugar: The Bitter Truth - YouTube

That is an excellent, truly eye opening lecture. Further information isn't hard to find if you have a genuine interest in the topic.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

always_alone said:


> And, yes, I can see that I am coming across as very anti-male. I didn't start this way, but when 99% of you are claiming that 99% of you are totally entitled to comment rudely on hotties and enjoy the productions of porn regardless of other concerns, i have to say i'm really starting to wonder why i even try.


I feel the same way when I'm asked to perpetually talk about my feelings.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

My brother is 5'5..And allthough I'm not incestuous I would have dated him at that height.Of course Im only 5'2.But still.Hes more picky about the woman being shorter than him..He doesn't want to date a woman taller than him..


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> That's a very interesting question. I've been pondering it actually for the last couple days since I started posting on this thread. The answer is, I don't really know.
> 
> Personally I self medicated with porn while I was having relationship troubles. Since that has been improving, my use of porn has dropped dramatically. Previously I might have used porn 1-2 times per day on average. Now it's maybe once every 2 weeks. My masturbation has similarly dropped, although not as much. I also use erotica for masturbation. I also find it interesting that the erotica I read is much more degrading than the porn I watch. When I watch porn it is almost always amateur porn with no facials or rough treatment. It's more like regular couples. The erotica I read often involves aspects of sexual deviance. Slavery, adultery etc...


Thank you for this insight. I have experimented with different types myself (if you can't beat 'em, then join 'em), but I often find myself unable to get past the feeling of being degraded. And I have no use for romance novels or 'porn for women' either. Just can't buy into those fantasies ...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Are you serious? Because there is an embarrassment of riches regarding this topic, but if you'd like a primer start here:
> 
> Sugar: The Bitter Truth - YouTube
> 
> That is an excellent, truly eye opening lecture. Further information isn't hard to find if you have a genuine interest in the topic.


NO! I know the damage sugar does..Show me how OVER sexualizing doesn't harm in comparison.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

At the end of the day I believe more men need to start saying "Your opinion on what I do with my penis during my alone time is none of your business". End of story. That way a woman can decide if she wants to be involved with a man who holds this perspective, or move on and find someone else.

I think, in this regard, men need to start living like modern women in the Western world. It's wholly and completely alright, on a societal level, for women to pick up a Rabbit, or Hitachi Wand, and have a good ole time working her clit over. And if a man expresses discomfort with her alone time, or feels threatened by a machine that can perform in ways he is not built to, he'll likely be told to accept it, and reminded that her masturbation time is her own, sacred, her time to explore her own body, and that is has nothing to do with him as a lover. Even if a woman enjoys porn, or written erotica, romance novels, or just fantasizing about her favorite film star, there is very little reprimand for women who enjoy exploring their sexuality by themselves. 

The new "man up" needs to be "woman up" when it comes to this topic. If you're satisfying your woman, enjoy your alone time, and that includes porn, then OWN IT. Don't apologize for it, don't seek forgiveness, don't be ashamed, and don't work overtime to gain acceptance. If she doesn't want to look at porn, tell her that she's welcome to refrain. If she wants you to stop, and you don't see any reason to, tell her "No". And if she doesn't want to handle it, she is free to walk and find somebody who shares her views on the topic at hand.

It's the secrecy, the manipulation, and the control that are making this a much bigger issue than it need to be.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

At the end of the day I believe more men need to start saying "Your opinion on what I do with my penis during my alone time is none of your business". End of story. That way a woman can decide if she wants to be involved with a man who holds this perspective, or move on and find someone else. QUOTE

So true and not just penis but mind.Which brain dead people normally aret'n aware they have a penis..So that's a given..



> I think, in this regard, men need to start living like modern women in the Western world. It's wholly and completely alright, on a societal level, for women to pick up a Rabbit, or Hitachi Wand, and have a good ole time working her clit over. And if a man expresses discomfort with her alone time, or feels threatened by a machine that can perform in ways he is not built to, he'll likely be told to accept it, and reminded that her masturbation time is her own, sacred, her time to explore her own body, and that is has nothing to do with him as a lover.


Nahh not for me .That would be a last resort.And not only that Hitachis and "wands" are good for couples too!!


sorry...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Again, if people want porn to stop...

Then expend your energy on convincing women to stop becoming performers.

Take away the women, and the vast majority of porn dies.

Oh if the amount of vitriol tossed at men, by porn hating women, would be extended toward their own sex, who more often than not volunteer for objectification (obviously not talking about children and abducted adults), what an interesting day that would be!


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

In an attempt to inject a little humor into an emotionally charged topic, I do have a funny story:

A female relative was picking up her son's toys and found a stash of pictures in the bottom of the toy box. They were all pictures of women with bare midriffs torn out of magazines. 

The boy is 4 1/2 years old


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Again, if people want porn to stop...
> 
> Then expend your energy on convincing women to stop becoming performers.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> NO! I know the damage sugar does..Show me how OVER sexualizing doesn't harm in comparison.


I clearly specified "human beings", as in all of humanity.

In case you're not aware, vastly more human beings on planet earth over indulge in simple sugar than are addicted to pornography.

Overconsumption of simple sugars are the root of many debilitating, life threatening diseases. Porn is not.

But sure, if you think looking at porn, even the negative consequences, is comparable to amputations, obesity, heart failure, billions in raising healthcare costs, and DEATH, well have at it.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jaquen said:


> It's the secrecy, the manipulation, and the control that are making this a much bigger issue than it need to be.


Definitely! But I still find it odd that the response to complaints about porn seem to always be a defence of masturbation. 
Masturbation is not the problem (for me anyway).


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

If the men and women stopped watching porn, there would no longer be such a demand for it either....





Sorry...couldn't help myself.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jaquen said:


> It's the secrecy, the manipulation, and the control that are making this a much bigger issue than it need to be.


It was never the porn itself that got to me.I love looking at a variety of porn via pictures.It was the secrets,deception,and outright lies that broke me down about it.Had my exhusband been honest about his porn use things would have been a lot better.He wasn't so it went into the pile of reasons I had for leaving him.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Definitely! But I still find it odd that the response to complaints about porn seem to always be a defence of masturbation.
> Masturbation is not the problem (for me anyway).


Masturbation and porn are linked in the man's mind because the overwhelming majority of men will use porn, whether physical, or mental, during masturbation.

Take away the physical born, and many men will just slip right into the mental. He might conjure up even more elaborate, or "degrading", scenarios in his mind's eye than can ever be produced on the screen. The porn-free man might be having ten thousand affairs in his mind. His masturbation time could very well be filled with thoughts of sleeping with women at work, celebrities, women he conjures out of nowhere, wild orgies, thoughts of your neighbor, best friend, or even your sister. 

The only reason that most women are angry about porn is because they can see it. But the real wonderland is in a man's mind. If you could peel back that layer, you'd die at what you saw on any given day.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Again, if people want porn to stop...
> 
> Then expend your energy on convincing women to stop becoming performers.
> 
> ...


I doubt that is true. There would just be more pictures / videos with less variety in actresses.

Plus we live in a world where women are taught from a very young age that their primary value is in how pretty they are, or how well they can attract men, and this is reinforced by the billions spent on the sex trade. It's not too surprising that women want a piece of that action. If you have to put up with the bad behaviour anyway, why not make the most of it?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I clearly specified "human beings", as in all of humanity.
> 
> In case you're not aware, vastly more human beings on planet earth over indulge in simple sugar than are addicted to pornography.
> 
> ...


That does not mean that porn is not harmful HENCE my comparison .I brought up sugar because its a NATURAL biological URGE to eat it.And it has caused DESTRUCTION because of the ease and overabundance of its availibility....Sex is NO different and the easier and cheaper it gets ...HELLO!!


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Masturbation and porn are linked in the man's mind because the overwhelming majority of men will use porn,


Because just like sugar our society is SATURATED with it..Of course they will "use it" just like we will wheel through Jack in the box and order a sourdough burger with fries and a coke!YES the majority are going to EAT it because WHOOP there is is! That doesn't mean its HEALTHY or a good thing!


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Plus we live in a world where women are taught from a very young age that their primary value is in how pretty they are, or how well they can attract men,


We live in that world because moms and dads don't seem to be able to get it through their heads that they need to teach their daughters about self worth being deeper than their beauty.If our daughters had a better support system in place from their mothers and fathers,they wouldn't be so vulnerable to the persuasion of the media.

Instead you see moms allowing their daughters to get nose jobs at the age of 16.You see moms allowing their daughters to buy clothes with shorts that show the bottom of their buttcheeks.12 year olds wearing makeup and string bikinis. WHO has control over these things if not the people raising the child? So since the mom or the dad is teaching that it's all about beauty,that makes it ok.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I doubt that is true. There would just be more pictures / videos with less variety in actresses.
> 
> Plus we live in a world where women are taught from a very young age that their primary value is in how pretty they are, or how well they can attract men, and this is reinforced by the billions spent on the sex trade. It's not too surprising that women want a piece of that action. If you have to put up with the bad behaviour anyway, why not make the most of it?


You will never change the men. The suffrage and the feminist moment didn't unfold because women waited around for men to "get it", to have some blazing moment of epiphany.

Women can spend all morning, night, and every hour in between railing at men about porn. They can cry, and berate, threaten, belittle, pout, and huff, and the end result will still remain largely unchanged; men will enjoy watching people have sex.

If women want to bring down the industry, best start working to make changes within your own sex. That's a near impossibility, but you've got a better shot at making an impact than spending your time mad at men.

Of course this supposes that all women carry your view, which of course isn't the truth at all.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> It was never the porn itself that got to me.I love looking at a variety of porn via pictures.It was the secrets,deception,and outright lies that broke me down about it.Had my exhusband been honest about his porn use things would have been a lot better.He wasn't so it went into the pile of reasons I had for leaving him.


Exactly.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Again, if people want porn to stop...
> 
> Then expend your energy on convincing women to stop becoming performers.
> 
> ...


I agree.. now how do you suggest how to feed all the poor people?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> That does not mean that porn is not harmful HENCE my comparison .I brought up sugar because its a NATURAL biological URGE to eat it.And it has caused DESTRUCTION because of the ease and overabundance of its availibility....Sex is NO different and the easier and cheaper it gets ...HELLO!!


But my comment about sugar wasn't in response to anything you said, so I'm a bit confused as to how this has anything to do with your original point.



dallasapple said:


> I agree.. now how do you suggest how to feed all the poor people?


Not possible. As long as human beings are human beings, the poor, hungry, and destitute will always be with us, regardless of how much abundance abounds.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Because just like sugar our society is SATURATED with it..Of course they will "use it" just like we will wheel through Jack in the box and order a sourdough burger with fries and a coke!YES the majority are going to EAT it because WHOOP there is is! That doesn't mean its HEALTHY or a good thing!


You didn't address the "mental porn" portion of my post, which was the point.

The oversaturation of pornographic images does not stop men from enjoying a rich, often "degrading" fantasy life.

Men were enjoying porn films in their minds long before film was ever invented.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

How many college educated men and women are in porn? How many non abuse victims or drug addicts are in porn?

Close to 0%.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Not possible. As long as human beings are human beings, the poor, hungry, and destitute will always be with us, regardless of how much abundance abounds.


So you are saying as long as they exist exploit them?

Because that was MY point they are EXPLOITED!

STOP exploiting them!


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> The oversaturation of pornographic images does not stop men from enjoying a rich, often "degrading" fantasy life.


Um no it feeds it.:scratchhead:


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

I guess my wife and I live together on a different planet-- maybe it's Jupiter?

If we had a daughter (rather than two sons) the message we would have conveyed would have been the same we conveyed to our two sons:

Try to get into Stanford. Or Cal. Or Harvard. Education is your ticket to freedom and health. Control your own future. Don't define your self-worth through someone else's eyes.

There's your solution.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> You will never change the men. The suffrage and the feminist moment didn't unfold because women waited around for men to "get it", to have some blazing moment of epiphany.


TOOO TRUE!!

But less and less women are WILLING to wait around will have to bolt men into change.They(men) are slow to change though like slugs or turtles..Then they get angry because they are left behind..WAKE UP!Women are already filing for divorce in 7 out of 10 cases..WAKE UP!:scratchhead:


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Um no it feeds it.:scratchhead:


What do you think men did before the mass production of porn in the form of film and magazine?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> I guess my wife and I live together on a different planet-- maybe it's Jupiter?
> 
> If we had a daughter (rather than two sons) the message we would have conveyed would have been the same we conveyed to our two sons:
> 
> ...



:FIREdevil:


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

jaquen said:


> What do you think men did before the mass production of porn in the form of film and magazine?


I'm curious what and where what a poor man did?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I'm curious what and where what a poor man did?



Not sure what this has to do with my question, so I'll ask again.

Before the advent, and proliferation, of modern pornographic films and photos, what do you think men did during their masturbation time?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> How many college educated men and women are in porn? How many non abuse victims or drug addicts are in porn?
> 
> Close to 0%.


I don't know if there's a way to do an actual and honest study on it but I'd be interested in seeing exactly how the numbers add up.

I can only speak from personal experiences of course,being a professional engineer I come in contact with mostly college educated men and women.Mostly all of the men will admit to enjoying the occasional porn viewing and if you get to know them on a personal level,the women will sometimes own up to enjoying it too.I'm not certain about whether or not they were abused.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Doesn't Ron Jeremy have a phd or something?


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I walked in on my wife watching the DIY network and was completely upset because she has never helped me fixing anything around the house that was in need of repair. I think I'll cancel cable so I won't feel cheated on.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> I guess my wife and I live together on a different planet-- maybe it's Jupiter?
> 
> If we had a daughter (rather than two sons) the message we would have conveyed would have been the same we conveyed to our two sons:
> 
> ...


Dear Jaharthur<

My life also isn't being bedded down by a man.Or My prowess as to how well I distribute oral sex.It appears much of society gauges the health of relationhips on that and its very sad.Cudos to you that you have far more substance than that in your marriage and a relationship with your sons..


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

the vast majority of women start making themselves attractive to men by dressing sexy,wearing make up, dying their hair,painting their finger nails etc,etc....

lets face it most people want an attractive mate.and do everything in their power to get one.

women who don't want to be objectifyed still want a hot guy chasing them so they wear all the above mentioned and then complain when us guys look and comment on their looks.

and then are dombfounded when after they get married and quit trying to look therir best ....by any number of ways like gaining a ton of weight or wearing old nasty sweat paint and oversized sweat shirts. along with losing interest in sex or using sex to manuplate their husband who they professed to love in front of people.

get all pi$$y when they find out their man is masterbating to porn.
now I don't get the feeling that the op is in this catagory she is and has said she was into sex with her husband.

kinda got lost in my own ramble there I was trying to make a point and got derailed ....sorry

my point being is if you want to stop men from objectfying women you will have to rewire millions of year of evolution because men are programed to look for the best mate visualy and women are programed to look for the best mate who can provide.

so any women who only date sucessfull men are just as bad as any man who only wants the best looking mate.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Not sure what this has to do with my question, so I'll ask again.
> 
> Before the advent, and proliferation, of modern pornographic films and photos, what do you think men did during their masturbation time?


It has a LOT to do with the question what DID men who "need" many women to stimulate them DO when many women werent around.?

So I will ask again WHAT did they do?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> TOOO TRUE!!
> 
> But less and less women are WILLING to wait around will have to bolt men into change.They(men) are slow to change though like slugs or turtles..Then they get angry because they are left behind..WAKE UP!Women are already filing for divorce in 7 out of 10 cases..WAKE UP!:scratchhead:


This is likely to backfire though, isn't it?

First off it supposes that all women have a problem with porn. Unfortunately for the anti-porn brigade, many of whom like to delude themselves into believing that all women share a collective brain, this hasn't been proven to be true. There is no shortage of women who will tolerate, if not outright enjoy, porn in their marriages.

If some women begin to throw men away solely for their continued use of porn, then what will happen is that the men will become free to connect with the many women who aren't part of the anti-porn association. 

It won't be the men who get left behind. A decent man, with decent looks, and a decent job, will never have a problem landing a woman.

Anti-porners will, under your suggestion, be streaming into an overflooded market, with extraordinarily limiting criteria on what they're willing to accept.

Who's most likely to end up alone? The man looking for a woman who's fine with his porn habit, or the anti-porn woman searching for a porn free man in a country where statistics tell us the vast majority of men indulge in porn, to various degrees?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> Dear Jaharthur<
> 
> My life also isn't being bedded down by a man.Or My prowess as to how well I distribute oral sex.It appears much of society gauges the health of relationhips on that and its very sad.Cudos to you that you have far more substance than that in your marriage and a relationship with your sons..


much of society also base the health of a relationship on how well the man earns a living....for shame.


most women want a sucessfull man and most men want a woman who can suck a golf ball throught 100 feet of garden hose.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> my point being is if you want to stop men from objectfying women you will have to rewire millions of year of evolution because men are programed to look for the best mate visualy and women are programed to look for the best mate who can provide.


HA HA HA!!! Then I have my choice so my husband is OUT of LUCK! HA HA HA!!!!

And you say "men" ..did you forget OTHER men may be looking to bed your wife???LOL!!

Women are up for that!

You better watch out..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> much of society also base the health of a relationship on how well the man earns a living....for shame.
> 
> 
> most women want a sucessfull man and most men want a woman who can suck a golf ball throught 100 feet of garden hose.


YEP now many women earn more than her husband..


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Thank you for this insight. _I have experimented with different types myself (if you can't beat 'em, then join 'em), but I often find myself unable to get past the feeling of being degraded. _ And I have no use for romance novels or 'porn for women' either. Just can't buy into those fantasies ...


One last post here...

I had to comment on this because this is what I found disturbing about porn. _It made me feel ashamed of my own gender._ I felt little emotion regarding the male in the video, nor did it register that _he _was degrading the woman. However, I was troubled at the message the woman was conveying regarding female sexuality, and that concerned me a lot.

If we women are going to blame anyone for the glut of porn, I guess Jaquen's right; we have to start with our own gender first...


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> One last post here...
> 
> I had to comment on this because this is what I found disturbing about porn. _It made me feel ashamed of my own gender._ I felt little emotion regarding the male in the video, nor did it register that _he _was degrading the woman. However, I was troubled at the message the woman was conveying regarding female sexuality, and that concerned me a lot.
> 
> If we women are going to blame anyone for the glut of porn, I guess Jaquen's right; we have to start with our own gender first...



My wife and I were in a crowded shopping mall around September of this year and a young women walked by wearing what appeared to be a black bra, black spandex bicycle shorts and red high heels. And that's all she was wearing. I was looking through the window of a store that sold fancy radio controlled toys and probably would have missed it if my wife hadn't given me a preemptive jab in the ribs with her elbow. 

I'm also seeing more and more women in public wearing ear rings in the shape of tiny hand cuffs. If I'm not mistaken, this is a homage to Fifty Shades of Grey. I've read the book out of curiosity and it struck me as very degrading. If a man like that took up with one of my daughters, you'd probably read about me in the paper.

With messages this mixed from women themselves, it's very confusing.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Doesn't Ron Jeremy have a phd or something?


Pretty humongous d***? Yeah, he does.

Which is partly why I, a college educated man, am not in porn. I look a little too much like RJ in every way but the important one.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Women have always used their sexuality for power and advantage. And when fall for it, we're to blame.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Doesn't Ron Jeremy have a phd or something?


Master's in Special Education (how about that!), BA in Education and Theater.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I've met Mr. Jeremy. He seems like a pretty nice, down to earth guy.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> My wife and I were in a crowded shopping mall around September of this year and a young women walked by wearing what appeared to be a black bra, black spandex bicycle shorts and red high heels. And that's all she was wearing. I was looking through the window of a store that sold fancy radio controlled toys and probably would have missed it if my wife hadn't given me a preemptive jab in the ribs with her elbow.
> 
> I'm also seeing more and more women in public wearing ear rings in the shape of tiny hand cuffs. If I'm not mistaken, this is a homage to Fifty Shades of Grey. I've read the book out of curiosity and it struck me as very degrading. If a man like that took up with one of my daughters, you'd probably read about me in the paper.
> 
> With messages this mixed from women themselves, it's very confusing.


I think we often project our own values and beliefs into things. These lead to judgments that we may mistaken to be universal. I am a woman. I read the book, and it struck me as liberating. Just as all men should not be confined to one box because they have a penis, similarly all women should not be confined to a box either. I think all can agree that women want to be respected and seen for all the things that they are and can be. I personally do not want to be reduced to being an orifice available to satisfy a man's pleasure. But i believe men who hold these views of women will hold them despite my actions. In other words, why should I live covering myself up, repressing my sexual fantasies, just so some man can look at me like I'm not just a sexual object? I personally will not give that power to anyone. The men who value me will make their judgments based on the whole of me, most will never know who I am sexually. And who is to say that no matter how i act, there are some that degrade me with their minds. So why limit myself and who I want to be for some false sense of control? 

Sex is not degrading to me. This whole thing about men being more sexual than women . . . I don't buy it. I think women are told that being sexual is degrading. You must be virtuous, which really means we must be chaste, in order for men to respect you. I feel I must respect myself for anyone to respect me. Personally, i sometimes think these rigid views about women and sex lead to more issues relating to poor self esteem and worth, than the act of men watching porn.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ina said:


> Sex is not degrading to me. This whole thing about men being more sexual than women . . . I don't buy it. I think women are told that being sexual is degrading. You must be virtuous, which really means we must be chaste, in order for men to respect you. I feel I must respect myself for anyone to respect me. Personally, i sometimes think these rigid views about women and sex lead to more issues relating to poor self esteem and worth, than the act of men watching porn.


What a powerful and insightful thought.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> NO! I know the damage sugar does..Show me how OVER sexualizing doesn't harm in comparison.


You want to see what oversexualizing does?
Take a walk in the mall during summer holidays and see little , under aged girls dressed up like **** looking for attention.

Have a look at the teenage pregnancy statistics.

Have a look at the REAL statistics ;

The Oversexualization of Young Adolescent Girls: Implications for Middle Grades Educators - Middle School Journal

hedomesticexecutive.com/what-is-happening-to-our-little-girls-part-one-oversexualization.html

w.aboutkidshealth.ca/En/News/NewsAndFeatures/Pages/Sexy-babies-how-sexualization-hurts-girls.aspx

http://psych.hanover.edu/research/Thesis09/Kai and Erin IS Final Paper.pdf

And there's MUCH more research.

Guess what ?

Porn wasn't the culprit.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jaquen said:


> *Men were enjoying porn films in their minds long before film was ever invented*.


Somehow the average woman just doesn't get it.
The ancient scripts, the erotic temple carvings , the roman and Greel orgies, the brothels of Pompeii ,the Persian belly dancers,the harems , the kama sutra , 
It was always there, hence the creation of modern porn.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I'm curious what and where what a poor man did?


History of Pornography


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I think women also enjoy those little porn films in their minds.They aren't as likely to admit it because *wrinkling nose* "that's cheap and dirty and I'm better than that!!"


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Somehow the average woman just doesn't get it.
> The ancient scripts, the erotic temple carvings , the roman and Greel orgies, the brothels of Pompeii ,the Persian belly dancers,the harems , the kama sutra ,
> It was always there, hence the creation of modern porn.


No, no, no the men of old were chaste, noble, and chivalrous! Haven't you heard?


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Ina said:


> I think we often project our own values and beliefs into things. These lead to judgments that we may mistaken to be universal. I am a woman. I read the book, and it struck me as liberating. Just as all men should not be confined to one box because they have a penis, similarly all women should not be confined to a box either. I think all can agree that women want to be respected and seen for all the things that they are and can be. I personally do not want to be reduced to being an orifice available to satisfy a man's pleasure. But i believe men who hold these views of women will hold them despite my actions. In other words, why should I live covering myself up, repressing my sexual fantasies, just so some man can look at me like I'm not just a sexual object? I personally will not give that power to anyone. The men who value me will make their judgments based on the whole of me, most will never know who I am sexually. And who is to say that no matter how i act, there are some that degrade me with their minds. So why limit myself and who I want to be for some false sense of control?
> 
> Sex is not degrading to me. This whole thing about men being more sexual than women . . . I don't buy it. I think women are told that being sexual is degrading. You must be virtuous, which really means we must be chaste, in order for men to respect you. I feel I must respect myself for anyone to respect me. Personally, i sometimes think these rigid views about women and sex lead to more issues relating to poor self esteem and worth, than the act of men watching porn.



Well I don't want to hijack this thread, but since it appears to have run its course, I do have some comments:

The Christian Grey character as he's fleshed out over the course of the three books is a fatherless son of a crack whôre who was orphaned at four when his mother took her life in front of him. As a child, he's starved and physically abused by her pimp and as an adolescent, he's sexually abused and dominated by a female pedophile.

His activities in the "Red room of pain" may facilely come off as erotic role playing, but the implication is pretty damn clear that there is a darker side to it and his sadistic streak is an outlet and manifestation of his own self-loathing and troubled past. Consequently, he's strongly attracted not to women who are anywhere near a match for him in terms of personality, but to a weak, stumbling, inexperienced young virgin lacking in self confidence and therefore easy prey for a sexual predator like him. And this is where I have a problem with it. 

Please don't misunderstand. As a fantasy, I do grasp the 'moth to flame' effect at work. There's a scene in Bram Stoker's Dracula where Dracula's three brides are holding Jonathan Harker prisoner. I think most men can acknowledge that there are worse fates that can befall a fictional male character than being chewed on by three beautiful semi-nude women. - LOL

But there's a world of difference between fantasy and reality and that difference seems to be blurred in 50 shades, because the setting is real life. Vampires don't exist, but people like Christian Grey do. They're called sociopaths. It's not pretty in real life. Among their ranks are serial killers, rapists and pedophiles.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jaquen said:


> No, no, no the men of old were chaste, noble, and chivalrous! Haven't you heard?


Sometimes I just smile when people argue stuff based on their own feelings as if it were factual.

Some people still can't connect of the effects of the Renaissance Period and the French revolution on our modern cultural norms.

Simply put ,
The Dark Ages are gone for good.

For those who missed it, I'll post it again.

http://www.pornographyhistory.com/


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Well I don't want to hijack this thread, but since it appears to have run its course, I do have some comments:
> 
> The Christian Grey character as he's fleshed out over the course of the three books is a fatherless son of a crack whôre who was orphaned at four when his mother took her life in front of him. As a child, he's starved and physically abused by her pimp and as an adolescent, he's sexually abused and dominated by a female pedophile.
> 
> ...


Doesn't she "fix" him by the end of the 3rd book? Isn't that the quintessential female fantasy, to fix the broken abusive man?


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

Projection is a powerful thing. That is all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## janefw (Jun 26, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> the vast majority of women start making themselves attractive to men by dressing sexy,wearing make up, dying their hair,painting their finger nails etc,etc....
> 
> lets face it most people want an attractive mate.and do everything in their power to get one.
> 
> ...


What does any of that have to do with porn? Are the men watching porn looking for a mate? Uh, no. They are looking for orgasm. 

Not to mention all the men that develop a beer belly, stop shaving and using cologne, and truly think that farting and belching is intelligent conversation. Oh, and the ones that can't get it up all the time any more, because they're too lazy, or football is more important. 

Men also droop after marriage.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Scarlet, 
I see this differently. If asked about porn by a prospective partner I would ask them a few questions. 

The first is, what is your overall long term commitment towards being a good sexual partner? I honestly believe that in the modern world many, many women would dislike being asked that question. They might wonder if the man asking it, was going to expect them to sustain a high level of effort over time. 

Odd isn't it. The HD partner asks the LD partner to make a commitment about overriding basic physiology (lack of testosterone), in response to being asked to override his basic physiology (t driven and highly visual). 

During long blocks of our marriage, our sex life was great and I don't watch porn. Always always gave my wife 'right of first refusal'. If she had played the hard line tune of: we can have sex when I feel like it. And you can have a divorce if you watch porn, we would be ex's,.


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## janesmith (Nov 29, 2010)

women objecting to something men have been doing to themselves since the womb strikes me one of the most illogical and unreasonable demand I have ever heard a partner make of their partner. How do you govern what someone does with their own body....when its just THEM! That would be like my husband getting mad that I touch MYSELF in a sexual way. That would be ludicrous and I would laugh at him thinking he was making a funny.

Ive never read or heard one justification a woman can give for objecting to a man masturbating that made a modicum of sense.

well...

unless he would rather masturbate than have sex with me...THEN we would have a problem


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## ankh (Oct 14, 2012)

We would always want sex with you, Jane, rather than masturbating!


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

Created2Write, what does your husband think about all your posts to this forum?


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## acertriplex (Dec 15, 2012)

Just because he jerks off while your sick doesn't mean he does not care about you. Men have needs and if you can't fulfill that need he took care of it himself. Be glad you didn't catch him going to a hooker while your sick.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

28 pages!!! How's OP doing?


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