# Religion/Atheist Talk



## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Hello
I have a an extensive and long story if you're curious and if you read my threads you'll find i've arrived and have been practicing the no more mr nice guy school of healing. It has worked wonders for me so far. Got finances in shape, working on my confidence. Standing up for myself setting boundaries in a healthy way. There are still a lot of things though that make me question if we should be together or not. Mismatched Libidos and attitudes towards sex, views on the world but one of the largest I've seen is religion. 

We've always agreed to disagree but i can see this becoming a larger issue. I live in a state (Utah) where you're are basically either LDS or not and those who are not are looked at strangely. My wife was raised mormon but does not practice. I was raised completely without religion and it was not really ever brought up. 

There is massive confusion in our community. No religion=bad morals. My wife falls for some of it. She automatically trusts someone if they are LDS for example simply because of this. All of it makes me feel like I'm not what she wants even though she adamant about not practicing the LDS religion.

The trouble is. I'm a concious atheist. Meaning that I didn't arrive at that conclusion because I was told that. I've researched read, and thought for almost 10 years now seriously on the subject. I've simply tried beliving in a god believing that there is more. I cannot deny what i think and what I feel. 

Recently our kids asked some questions my wife answered her point of view but was kind enough to say that dad believes something different. Later though she said that "We need to figure out what we are going to tell the kids, or you know.... you could get on board" that really hurt. 

She knows that I don't think religion is necessarily a good thing i'm completely non-judgemental. If she wants to believe who am I to say she can't? however i don't think i've outright sat her down and said you know what? I don't believe in god and I'm now sure i'm not going to change and in fact my belief or lack thereof, keeps getting stronger and stronger. I don't believe that Jesus was anything more than a regular guy doing some good things. 

Part of my Nice Guy healing is for me to be true to myself and to others about what I believe and how I feel. I need to do this with her. I know she probably knows but i need to really confirm with her. I want some tips some advice and some thoughts about this.. .thanks


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

You don't need religion to be a good person, and your children are not going to suffer irreparable harm if mom and dad don't agree on the answer the Big Question. They might even figure out that they have to answer it for themselves. 

Stay the course, be good, be strong, and don't give in. You're already non-confrontational about the issue, which is a perfectly reasonable compromise. 

Who knows? You're wife may eventually come around to your way of thinking when she sees that you're not a baby eating philandering hedonistic devil worshiper. Mine did.


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## Malpheous (May 3, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Who knows? You're wife may eventually come around to your way of thinking when she sees that you're not a baby eating philandering hedonistic devil worshiper. Mine did.


We haven't eaten babies in centuries.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Hey Mat, fellow Utahn here and an atheist too. Our neighborhood is 50/50 LDS. It sounds like perhaps you are in one of the more strongly LDS areas.

LDS members are frequently taken by scammers because there is an automatic trust of church members. Sad.

You should read the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by M. Smith. Look for it on bookza dot org for a free download, or you can usually find it on the shelf at a bookstore. It goes hand in hand with NMMNG.

My wife is fairly religious, but not LDS. She is quite involved in her church. We raised our kids with the attitude that we would be open about our beliefs and we would respect each other's right to have their beliefs, and our kids can make up their own minds.

I can see how it is a problem though if your wife wants the kids to get fully involved in the LDS program. It puts a high demand on the kids' time, and it segregates them from the other kids by the time they get into high school due to all the activities and pressures.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Malpheous said:


> We haven't eaten babies in centuries.


I was considering having one for breakfast, but they're so fattening.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

You might have a rough sled of it in LDS territory too. My brother in law moved to Mississippi and opened up a OB/GYN practice. It became very clear early on that failure to practice a religion was going to be fatal to his practice - "their kind" wasn't really welcome there. There is a growing Mormon presence right in my neighborhood now for some reason. Most of them seem to be good enough people, but they also very much keep within their group.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Thor
First of all, i'm actually in sugarhouse so it's pretty balanced. I should say though that she isn't pushing that on the kids at all and has no intention of having them go to church or anything. That's not my issues. It's a fundamental thing. I don't believe there is a god. I am actually quite afraid that she isn't (in the end) going to accept this from me due to that comment she made. I'm worried about "dad is wrong" comments and such. 

I have 0 problems with LDS people. Two of her sisters still practice. Basically it's not one religion or not. It's that I just don't believe in fairy tails.... I'll check out that book.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I think the best move right now is to just talk to your wife openly about your beliefs and how you want things to work with your kids.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

matman said:


> Hello
> I have a an extensive and long story if you're curious and if you read my threads you'll find i've arrived and have been practicing the no more mr nice guy school of healing. It has worked wonders for me so far. Got finances in shape, working on my confidence. Standing up for myself setting boundaries in a healthy way. There are still a lot of things though that make me question if we should be together or not. Mismatched Libidos and attitudes towards sex, views on the world but one of the largest I've seen is religion.
> 
> We've always agreed to disagree but i can see this becoming a larger issue. I live in a state (Utah) where you're are basically either LDS or not and those who are not are looked at strangely. My wife was raised mormon but does not practice. I was raised completely without religion and it was not really ever brought up.
> ...


If you're truly non-judgmental about what others believe, why not let your wife decide on what they are taught, as long as she does what she did... offer an explanation that some people have different beliefs, including their dad?


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## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

Cletus said:


> You don't need religion to be a good person, and your children are not going to suffer irreparable harm if mom and dad don't agree on the answer the Big Question. They might even figure out that they have to answer it for themselves.


Yup. Teach them HOW to think, not WHAT to think.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

I couldn't agree more! I don't mind our kids exploring whatever they want. As long as they aren't told any one route including non-belief is wrong. That's my concern... because of her disrespect for me I am worried she doesn't take my views as seriously.


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## AlmostYoung (May 24, 2012)

You've respected her beliefs, so there's nothing more for you to do here. 

I'd suggest not saying anything about it. (unless she initiates) Why do you feel a need to stir the pot? It's not your problem to fix. You're ok with your beliefs and hers. Just keep on being the good, non-believing man you are, and allow her to accept or reject you. Over time she's more likely to accept it. Shine bright lights on the issue now and she won't.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Almost Young
A very wise thought. Maybe i shouldn't bring this up now. I guess it comes at a time when both of us are seriously thinking about whether or not we should really stay together due to a lot of issues. So I guess i felt some compelling needs to say "hey this is me take it or leave it" and admittedly that comment she made is still stinging.


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## AlmostYoung (May 24, 2012)

matman said:


> I guess it comes at a time when both of us are seriously thinking about whether or not we should really stay together due to a lot of issues. So I guess i felt some compelling needs to say "hey this is me take it or leave it" and admittedly that comment she made is still stinging.


Here's the thing... In the position you are in, the only decision that can be made immediately is to end the relationship. Is that what you want?

If it is not, you need to allow time for a shift in heart. 

Are you in a hurry for resolution? If so, I'd ask why.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Malpheous said:


> We haven't eaten babies in centuries.


Indeed, and I'm famished!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sh987 said:


> Yup. *Teach them HOW to think, not WHAT to think.*


If you could both get on the same page here..and just agree to give your children a balanced view of *REASON* in all things... teach* Ethics*... *Compassion*... *Empathy* .*.Responsibility* in all things...(all religions would agree)..it's the dogma you want to look at with a critical eye...appeal to her on the important things LIKE THIS..

Live by the Golden Rule...







... atheists would heartily agree...Just living a life of a decent person is hard enough, why complicate it more with all the divisions of Religion ! 

IN our House...our son is the Christian and we are the Heretics.....who question the divinity of Jesus.. Heaven & hell, I reject the original sin Doctrine...argue scripture...but we still respect each other...

He told me one day one of the greatest things I have given him is >> challenging him to THINK...to reason...Even when I was a believer years ago, I still wanted to hear all sides...I was never one to take my kids out of anything..but allow them to learn ...and make up their own minds..we can guide by example (and how very important it is)...how I look at this is >


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> important things LIKE THIS..
> 
> Live by the Golden Rule... atheists would heartily agree...Just living a life of a decent person is hard enough, why complicate it more with all the divisions of Religion !


Good points, but atheists often prefer the platinum rule - "do unto others as they would have you do unto them", or the Wiccan creed - "an' it harm no one, do as ye will".


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Cletus said:


> Good points, but atheists often prefer the platinum rule - "do unto others as they would have you do unto them", or the Wiccan creed - "an' it harm no one, do as ye will".


 I learn something new every day.. never heard of the Platinum rule!

I found this in a quick google search... The Golden Rule vs. The Platinum Rule

Good question....



> For the purpose of this discussion I will formulate the rules as follows:
> 
> *The Golden Rule*: treat others the way we would like them to treat us.
> 
> ...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

> The question that interests me is why would we want to use the Platinum Rule when we have the Golden Rule at our disposal? What does the Platinum Rule give us that the Golden Rule does not?


That's actually easy to answer.

Assume I am an extremely devout believer, back in the days of the Inquisition. I'd probably want to be burned at the stake for any slip-up in my words or actions as a form of penance, and by extension, would assume everyone would want the same courtesy extended to them! Hey, it's good enough for me, yet fortunately I've avoided screwing up. Too bad for them, they screwed up so we need to help them fix themselves.

That's where the Golden Rule fails and becomes abused. This is an extreme example, but it can be extended to almost anything as an excuse to mistreat others. Most reasonable people, though, will try to do the humane thing, but can easily be corrupted into doing the wrong thing.

The Platinum Rule sets a much higher, more ethical standard. You may actually have to ask what someone wants. In some crisis situations, you can't ask, and may have to assume, but most such situations have the same desired outcomes for anyone.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I learn something new every day.. never heard of the Platinum rule!
> 
> I found this in a quick google search... The Golden Rule vs. The Platinum Rule
> 
> Good question....


Holy smokes!

You use the platinum rule when how you would want to be treated doesn't agree with how the other person wants to be treated. The golden rule suffices when everyone agrees on what "how I want to be treated" means.

It's actually not very different from the conversation we had just the other day about how different approaches to commenting here can be useful to different personalities. When I'm looking for help on a problem, that last thing I want is "there, there" comments, "sending prayers and thoughts your way!", or any of that soft we-support-you tripe. I want hard answers, dammit!

As for how to figure out how someone wants to be treated? Ask them.


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## Malpheous (May 3, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Good points, but atheists often prefer the platinum rule - "do unto others as they would have you do unto them", or the Wiccan creed - "an' it harm no one, do as ye will".


Actually, Anton LaVey(founder of LaVeyan Satanism and The Church of Satan in 1966) expressed a similar take on things in his writings. He also directly addressed this with rule 9 of the 11 Satanic Rules of the Earth as "Do not harm little children." Rule 10 is "Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food." So the whole animal sacrifice thing is not LaVeyan.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

OP,

Allow me to speak as an active LDS member (former Bishop) who has complete empathy with your circumstances. First of all hats off for you and Thor to be non members living in "Zion". I could not and would never consider living there for all the reasons listed by both of you.

You and your wife are in an excellent position to teach your kids solid principals that you believe in. You are both good people and you have a come to your conclusion based on your circumstances, life experiences, researching, reading pondering. Your wife has done the same although she has been severely conditioned by her environment. If I am interpreting this correctly LDS doctrine is the foundation of her beliefs but she does not want to "cleve" to it and that is fine.

What so many church members forget and it is fundamental to what we believe is that we believe in the agency of man 100% and that we are here to be tested. You and your wife should be teaching your kids the best about what you believe. Help them filter the "noise" they are hearing around them and encourage them to be on their own personal journey to find truth. Like any other parents you will be there to guide them and counsel them when they are struggling. 

I was conditioned in my youth but never programmed. There came a time in my life when I questioned everything and it was liberating. I have had incredible spiritual experiences in my life that make it impossible to do anything other than know what I know to be true. I would never discount or be critical anyone else's beliefs or lifestyle because they do not align with mine.

Feel free to PM me anytime if I can be of any help.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I was raised by a Presbyterian mother and an atheist father. We went to church for a few years and learned about the major bible stories the Platinum/Golden rule and 10 commandments. BUT the both spoke openly about choices and we had discussions around the dinner table regarding the feasibility of different bible stories. We did not go to church after I was 6 or so because we moved and the area was predominantly Southern Baptist, complete with speaking tongues, etc. 

My ex is Presbyterian oddly enough and we baptized my daughter (I was baptized as an infant) but I put my own, less religious meaning to it. The ceremony to me meant that I was going to guide her to be a good person and do the right thing. I taught her the little bit I knew that mostly revolved around Easter and Christmas. During the divorce ex suddenly started taking her to church and I was fine with VBS because I assume she will have questions and choices to make herself and I never felt that Christianity taught anything BAD, it was organized religion that seems to mostly rub me the wrong way - the "holier than thou" type. I mean - what happened to "judge not lest ye be judged"?

I'm more agnostic - call me non-committal but why put my eggs all in one basket? If I'm an atheist and I'm wrong I've lost it all and go to hell, right? If I'm agnostic and undecided/unsure then I'm just a lost LOG. Still, I'm guessing one cannot hedge bets on God, but I'm not a black and white person and I'm OK with shades of grey. Maybe you can be, too. How about teach tolerance, kindness and do some religious studies as a family? On ALL religions. Buddhism, Catholicism, LDS, etc... 

We celebrate Christmas only it's more about giving, being thankful, spending time with family. We celebrate Easter but it's more about rebirth. I don't think this has to be a deal breaker.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

RClawson said:


> OP,
> 
> Allow me to speak as an active LDS member (former Bishop) who has complete empathy with your circumstances. First of all hats off for you and Thor to be non members living in "Zion". I could not and would never consider living there for all the reasons listed by both of you.


Aside from the religious beliefs of the LDS faith, I find I am largely in agreement with their values. Those values are why Utah is such a great place to live and to raise kids.

Hard work, honesty, education, family, community, thrift. Our streets are generally safe, the schools are good, the state and local budgets have surpluses.

Our kids never had any problems such as being shunned or ridiculed by LDS kids. All of my kids are close friends with LDS and non-LDS in the neighborhood.

Dating is a bit weird in high school and even college due to the LDS cultural influence. That would be the one area I think kids miss out compared to other areas, though in reality today most places are kind of out of control wrt teens, dating, and sex. The way it was 35 years ago was better.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Sorry Thor but I could never live their. My brother and his family live there and I love to visit but I would never want to live in the Mormon fish bowl that is Utah. Let's face it there are really great people who live there but there are more people there that cannot make it throughout the day without taking notice of what their neighbor is doing wrong and letting everyone else in the local "God Squad" know what they are doing. Thanks but no thanks!


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Our neighborhood is 50/50. We've never had any problems. If we lived in one of the 90/10 communities it might be different.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

That would be the ideal in Utah. Of course if you live in Manti there is no running away from it.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

OP, in your situation, I see a growing rift, if not addressed, widening into a potential chasm that could cause division in your household. And even if eternal beliefs aren't agreed upon, then what is important is establishing a family culture of enough specificity, containing rituals of its own (and I'm not talking about cultic rituals...but specific, regular observances of values from which your family is centered around) so that even though you and wife are not in agreement with some very weighty issues, there at least needs to be a bedrock of some sort of understanding and binding material in your family unit. Because what would be lamentable is for there to be those who side with mommy and her beliefs...and those with daddy and his...and that causes a lot of stress on children...who will want to make a choice based on the parent they most sympathize with...and that introduces some dysfunction if mom and dad are sending messages (even slight ones) that they aren't in agreement. 

I have to admit this this goes against my own beliefs, my advice, cos I am a Christ follower, and I believe He is the bedrock and binding material for families...however, I have seen families torn apart because mom takes kids to church, dad stays home...then kids are offered choice...then mom goes alone or with sympathetic child...then resentment builds in w/ mom because going alone to church that obviously underscores unity of family at worship times (and LDS is more intense about that than most denoms). Anyway, this is why it is important to establish a very specific family culture/ bond where there are some very key family growth time being spent that is repetitious/ memorable/ and instilled with love...where these values can be held high above the disagreements in religious values...and that there has to be some sort of cooperative idea of what will work for either of you in concern with your wive's desire for religious observation...and probably her hopes that children may be "saved"...as well as finding some sort of satisfactory way to address your hopes that the kids will be saved from being indoctrinated with falsehood.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Cletus said:


> Holy smokes!
> 
> You use the platinum rule when how you would want to be treated doesn't agree with how the other person wants to be treated. The golden rule suffices when everyone agrees on what "how I want to be treated" means.
> 
> ...


You're funny Cletus, you know why, I think me & you have more in common than you realize.. I do appreciate NICE people however -IF it's genuine...many times it's NOT....I'd rather cut the







too. Give it to straight, no white lies either.. 

I was out the door when I left my last post, I didn't thoroughly get the chance to look into these differences...that was the 1st link I came across.... but given what you have said here... I will now officially adopt the *Platinum rule* over the *Golden*!...as I feel this is how I live more so anyway... I learned a long long time ago, most people do NOT think like I do... or want what I want... that we are fundamentally different.. How obvious is that -if we are paying attention ...

I am careful (in real life) to gleam how another's personality *IS* and what they want/ prefer as to not purposely irritate them, nothing worse than someone looking upon us like an irritating gnat they want to kill... On a forum however, I TRY to lean more on the kind side ....when I've missed it..I generally get my a$$ reamed out - by those who think I was being too judgemental, too harsh...

This taken from one of my temperament books, This is my mantra in getting along with others...(*Platinum rule* spelled out)....which could also help in this marriage - with this division on beliefs....



> *"Different Drums for Different Drummers" *
> 
> If I do not want what you want, please try not to tell me that my want is wrong.
> 
> ...


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

RClawson said:


> Of course if you live in Manti there is no running away from it.


Quite literally true!


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

I would suggest MC seeings how you hinted at there being more issues than just this one in your marriage. I get the idea that there are fears that she is going to make comments to your children that belittle your belief. I bet she fears the same. But is does sound like some communicating is in order over how you two will raise your children (this also means if the marriage was to end because then you have to really work at co parenting) It is best with such a topic so close to the heart that there be a neutral third party to keep things in context and on point. That is just my two cents.

I have lived in Utah my whole life (I am also in the sugar house area of salt lake. Small world huh!) I am not LDS but I love it here!


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