# Not sure what to do...Divorce? Suicide?



## Mike_S (Jun 22, 2013)

I am so confused. I guess I am reaching out for some help here. I have reached a point in my marriage where I just don't know how to continue. She just doesn't get me. I wonder if I wasn't around how that would be. I know she'd be devastated. But I honestly could give a ****. I know my mom, brother, and sisters would be very hurt. My cat, who loves me, would wonder where I have gone and when I will be back not knowing that I won't be back. People can understand that I have died and passed over, but my cat will not. That pains me the most. If I get a divorce, since he legally belongs to my wife, I fear I wouldn't be able to take my cat with me and he would still wonder where I had gone and why I abandoned him. I hate myself. I hate my life. Right now. It would be easy to just get this **** over with. But those I love will be hurt and will not understand. I am in so much pain. This woman has confused the **** out of me and I just don't know what else I can do to make her understand me. I am a very reasonable, or have been anyway, person. I deal with my problems logically and in a calculated manner. But my wife defies all logic. What should i do?


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Suicide is a very permanent solution to your problem. Please tell us more about your situation so we can help you. How old are you and your wife? How long have you been married? 

What exactly is going on in your marriage? You say your wife 'just doesn't get' you -- can you explain more? Have you told your wife how you feel? Has there been any counseling, either individually for you or for the two of you as a couple?

Stay here and talk some things through, Mike.


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## FLGator (Mar 26, 2013)

The point of having free will and making decisions is defeated by suicide. There is no learning from that or finding a better decision to make in the future. 

I say you hash it out here. Your first suggestion seriously should be taken off the table ASAP. 

Talk to us buddy. My wife is an alien also. We will understand.


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## Mike_S (Jun 22, 2013)

I am in tears right now. Maybe I want a permanent solution. It's a solution. It's a close to my problem. I won't have to deal with it anymore. I don't know. I'm scared. I'm pissed. I feel so helpless. This was never who I was. I was strong. Always knew what to do in any given situation. People would come to me for advice.

I'm 33. She's 31. We've been to counseling once. But at the time everything was fine and dandy and the counseling stopped. Everything is about her. It's always "you don't love me, you don't care about my feelings. You have to be kind." But I am not. Why would I be here if I didn't care. We get in fights over petty things and it blows up into this ****. I am just sick and tired of it. It's been 8+ years of the same garbage. Over and over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I'm guessing that there's more than what you're saying -- it usually takes more than fights over petty things or someone saying 'you don't care' to make a person change from a confident, strong person to one who is looking at suicide as a solution to his problems. 

What caused you both to go to counseling the first time? Who decided that it was 'find and dandy' and that counseling wasn't needed anymore? 

Are you in any kind of counseling for yourself? I would definitely suggest that no matter what. You miss who you used to be -- that strong person that had answers. You can get there again, you just need to back up and find out where things went off the rails. It's never too late to do that. I'm 15 years older than you, and I'm doing it myself. Lots of people here on TAM are as well.

Take some time and write out your story here.


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## Mike_S (Jun 22, 2013)

She wanted to get counseling first and I thought our problems were petty and as long as we were both receptive and willing to make it work we would be able to solve any problem or misunderstanding. We talked about counseling but didn't seek it out for a while until the arguments continued. Then we mutually decided we should go to counseling. Part of me wanted someone else to look at our situation and tell her where she was going wrong and part of me was open and willing to accept where I was going wrong or what I could do better. So we went to counseling and the first session was a week after an argument but we had made up already. We talked with the counselor and I learned some good things and also was reassured that much of the way I was approaching our arguments was correct. She said she learned some things too and was reassured in some ways about how she was feeling.

We had previously planned a vacation and skipped a week of counseling for that. We had a great time and aside from some small hick-ups it was fairly smooth and we both enjoyed it. We came back to counseling and were all smiles and spoke about how much fun we had and how great things are going. We mutually decided to stop counseling and the counselor also suggested that we were doing well and it wasn't necessary to do anymore sessions at the time. 

My mind is clouded right now, so please excuse me. Let me back track and start from the beginning. We've been married 8 years. This November it will be 9 years. We've always had miscommunications. In fact, our very first conversation was an argument. Usually when there is a disconnect it happens when she misunderstand something I say or how I say it. My intentions are never to mean harm but she seems to always understand it that way even though I've always told her that she should try and give me the benefit of the doubt because I don't have ill intent. When she says something that I feel hurt by, I try to ignore it and a few minutes later I'm fine. I give her the benefit of the doubt in almost every situation and try to put myself in her shoes. If she's on her period, I try to be there for her and try to do things to make it easy. For instance, if she has bad cramping, I offer to bring her the heat blanket or bring her some Motrin or something. I've read that chocolate helps during women's periods so I try to have chocolate everywhere and offer it to her.

Despite my willingness to help her, she still feels I am not kind. She thinks I don't do enough. Well what the hell am I supposed to do to make her feel better? I've tried everything. I try to hold her and give her kisses and tell her it's okay and try to be strong, the pain is temporary. She tends to be short tempered, obviously, during those times and every little thing I do sets her off. I try to avoid confrontation though. But I feel like I am walking on egg shells. The counselor noticed that as well when we were discussing some of our situations with him. I don't want to feel that way. I want to be open and able to communicate freely without feeling threatened that I will start another argument.

It's the same cycle over and over. I say something that she takes completely wrong and twists my words around and then I try to explain myself saying what I meant as clearly as I can. She doesn't accept my explanation and continues in her rant about how I always do this and say that and how I don't care. No matter how hard I try to tell her that she misunderstood or doesn't see my view she continues to block me out. This naturally drives me to frustration and I get angry and all hell breaks loose. I tell her she doesn't listen to me. She says I don't listen to her. She says I don't care about her and I don't love her and that drives me even more crazy because it couldn't be further from the truth. Bottom line, she doesn't let me explain myself and continues to accuse me of feeling things I don't really feel. And that drives me nuts! How the hell do you know what I feel? You are not me!


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> I'm guessing that there's more than what you're saying -- it usually takes more than fights over petty things or someone saying 'you don't care' to make a person change from a confident, strong person to one who is looking at suicide as a solution to his problems.
> 
> What caused you both to go to counseling the first time? Who decided that it was 'find and dandy' and that counseling wasn't needed anymore?
> 
> ...


Mike, this is excellent counsel. Stick around here, please. Just don't do anything too rash. Angel has a lot of great counsel to provide. I may not be able to input much, but I am good listener.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Thanks for that background, Mike. Your frustration jumps off the screen -- I can really see how upset you are. I asked you this before -- Does she know how truly desperate you are? Is she feeling as frustrated as you are? 

I understand that you do still love your wife, but you don't want to keep going on like this. Nobody would. Do other people seem able to understand what you're saying to them -- co-workers, family, etc.? If nobody else has a problem understanding what you mean, then that's a good indication the problem is more related to your relationship than you in general. 

I would definitely suggest MC for the two of you again AND individual counseling for you -- and that's whether or not she will go to MC. You two have developed a pattern of how things go when you (don't) communicate -- her twisting your words, you trying to explain, endlessly repeating. You need to find some new skills to disrupt that loop. If it comes down to it, you might find yourself being instructed to write things out before you say them (or recording a conversation -- watch out for legalities here) so that there is a record of what you are actually saying, that she can't dispute. 

I hesitate to say this is a verbally abusive relationship, but it certainly seems to be affecting you that way. It's imperative that spouses respect each other, and right now that's not there for either of you. Try to get your hands on this book, and see if it rings true:
The Verbally Abusive Relationship, Expanded Third Edition: Amazon.com: Books

It's been out a long time, so you might be able to even find it in your library. The Amazon link has a free preview as well. It will help you to recognize if you are in fact dealing with an abuser, and give you some things you can do.

There are also some books you can read together if you feel she's receptive. These are aimed more at helping couples work out their problems. 
One good starter title is:
The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love That Lasts: Gary D Chapman: 9780802473158: Amazon.com: Books

Also, some things on anger and communication in marriage can help, even if you're the only one reading them:
Why Can't You Read My Mind? Overcoming the 9 Toxic Thought Patterns that Get in the Way of a Loving Relationship: Ph.D. Jeffrey Bernstein Ph.D., Susan Magee: 9781569244753: Amazon.com: Books
The Anger Habit: Proven Principles to Calm the Stormy Mind: Carl Semmelroth Ph.D., Donald Smith PhD: 0760789208645: Amazon.com: Books

For the immediate future, I would suggest not engaging her. If you are talking to her and the typical word twisting starts, just tell her you need to take a break and walk away. Put physical distance between the two of you, and then YOU do something that gets your mind off of it. Otherwise that adrenaline keeps pumping and you keep worrying and thinking about it. Instead, exercise, call a friend and do something with him, go see a movie, etc. In this pattern she is getting something out of this or she wouldn't keep continuing it. Statements like 'you always' or 'you never' are a give-away that she has some big issues going on, too. You can't fix those issues, but you can take action to start changing your interactions. 

I spent a number of years with a verbally and emotionally abusive ex. He did a lot of the word twisting and 'always' and 'never' stuff, too. I also had a mom like that. I was suicidal in high school due to her, and the only reason I didn't get all the way to that point in my marriage (though I came too darn close) was because of my son. 

Someone has to break that cycle, Mike, and that someone is you. You can get back to being that strong man again. I'm so glad I didn't follow through on doing anything drastic. I have become so much healthier and happier since I'm not with him anymore. I've done a lot of work in therapy, read a lot of books, and taken steps to change things I do in my life. Lots of people here on TAM have done that, too. 

I'm not saying your marriage is over. What I'm saying is that the most important person right now is YOU, not her, not even your marriage. Find yourself a therapist ASAP -- start making calls on Monday. Look into the books I've linked to, and maybe just take a look at your library and see what you can find. 

There is hope for you. You don't have to be hopeless. Start fighting for yourself. Believe that you deserve to be treated better, because you do.


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## Mike_S (Jun 22, 2013)

I honestly don't care right now if my marriage survives. I'm just glad I don't have kids with this woman. But I do have a cat who I have grown VERY attached to and having had him since he was less than 2 months old, he's very attached to me as well. He always seeks me out in the house and whichever room I am in, he is there with me. He clearly likes me over my wife, who legally owns him. I am afraid of losing him, though, if I get a divorce. I know that I would be much happier if I do get a divorce.

The verbal abuse, I think is very real. I've confronted her about it in the past because it used to be worse. I've always made less money than her and she used to criticize my career choices and call me a loser or lazy because I lost my job once. I've done a lot for my career and although I make much less than her, I am making more money than I have in the past and am doing something I really enjoy at work.

Thank you for the book recommendations. I will definitely go to the library and/or amazon and check those out. We'll see how this turns out. I do deserve to be happy. I deserve to live my life free of fear. Thank you.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Mike,

You seem like a perfectly normal man, who is understandably frustrated with your relationship. 

Understand that your identity as a human being does not depend on her. You are you. You were you before you met her. You will not end if she's gone. 

Read this article. See if you can relate. Your wife sounds an awful lot like my ex, who I strongly suspect to be a high conflict/personality disordered person.

AT ANY COST: Saving your Life after Loving a Borderline.

Also, another site that was a big help for me, besides TAM, is:

for men who are recovering from relationships with abusive women and the non-abusive family and friends who love them | Shrink4Men

Hang in there, brother.


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## Mike_S (Jun 22, 2013)

Oh and she maybe has a clue of how desperate I am. I've talked about divorce in the past and almost walked out once but she prevented me from it. She feels I threaten her with divorce. But it's no threat. The idea of being free of this frustration is very real. I don't know if she understands that part.

There was a time she was feeling very frustrated. I'm sure she thought of divorce. That was the time when she brought up MC. I'm sure she went and read a few articles online and maybe even talked to a few people like I am doing. Then thought it was worth fighting for. I'm not sure I feel our marriage is worth fighting for. I don't know if I even feel about her the same as before. I used to look at her as a little angel and wanted to protect her. I wanted to give her the world. I only feel that way sometimes now. And that's when things are going really good. I look at her and smile and think about all of the things I would love to do for her and she her smile and laugh. But she hurts me. And I don't think she fully understands how much I hurt. I don't show it as much on the outside because that's just how I am. But I hurt too.

I've never really talked about my problems with my marriage to anyone in my family or at work. The only time I ever came forward and spoke to someone was in MC...and now. What I learned from MC was that the problem is not me. The counselor provided some insight on how both of us can do things different. Some things were directed to me and some things were directed to her and some things were general. But I feel the general things were hinted at her as well. Because his advice was things I was already doing and applying even before MC.


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## Mike_S (Jun 22, 2013)

Thanks for the info, ThreeStrikes. I'll check those out now.


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## MrsDraper (May 27, 2013)

Suicide is such a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Even a bad marriage is temporary - you can boot her. And take the cat.


Anyway, I think you need a new MC. She shouldn't have released you after 1 good session. Get into individual counseling as well. It will help you immensely with the feelings you are struggling with.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Mike_S said:


> It's the same cycle over and over. I say something that she takes completely wrong and twists my words around and then I try to explain myself saying what I meant as clearly as I can.


Mike, I agree with 3Strikes that the behaviors you describe -- the verbal abuse, easily triggered temper tantrums, and always being "The Victim" -- are several of the classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).


> She doesn't accept my explanation and continues in her rant about how I always do this and say that and how I don't care. No matter how hard I try to tell her that she misunderstood or doesn't see my view she continues to block me out.


You are describing "black-white thinking," which is another trait of BPD. B-W thinking occurs when the person categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- and will recategorize someone in a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other -- based solely on a minor comment or action. This all-or-nothing thinking also will be evident in a person's frequent use of expressions such as "you NEVER..." and "you ALWAYS...."


> My wife defies all logic.


If she has strong BPD traits, that is exactly how you should expect her to behave. BPDers (i.e., those with strong traits) are not good at regulating their own emotions. The result is that they frequently experience such intense feelings that they are convinced the feelings MUST be true. When it comes to interpersonal relationships, a BPDer generally believes that her feelings constitute FACTS -- and it is pointless to try to reason with her about it. You will only convince her that -- in addition to her feeling being true -- you also are a liar.


> I am so confused.


If you've been living for nearly 9 years with a person having strong BPD traits, consider yourself lucky to only feel "confused." It is common for a large share of the abused spouses of BPDers to feel like they may be losing their minds. Indeed, of the 157 disorder listed in the APA's Diagnostic Manual, BPD is the one that is most notorious for making the partners and spouses feel like they may be going crazy. Because I lived with my BPDer exW for 15 years, I know how disorienting and confusing it can be to live with someone who can flip from loving me to devaluing me in just a few seconds -- and five hours later will flip back just as quickly.


> I feel like I am walking on egg shells.


Please stop doing that. That enabling behavior is harmful to both of you. That's why the #1 best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused spouses) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells.

_For a good online article, the Shari Schreiber article that 3Strikes recommends above also gives an excellent description of BPD traits. Moreover, here on the TAM forum, I give a brief overview of BPD traits in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. 

If those descriptions ring a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you. Moreover, if you decide that most of the BPD traits sound very familiar, I'm sure that AngelPixie and 3Strikes will discuss them with you too. Both of them are very familiar with such traits. Take care, Mike.


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## Mike_S (Jun 22, 2013)

Uptown, thanks for your thorough response. What you described is my wife exactly. I feel like in every argument we have I spend 99% of it trying to explain myself or my intentions. I know this can't be normal. I will read that book Stop Walking on Eggshells. Today, she is extremely nice and cooperative and that is after we had a talk last night after where she saw me reading articles on divorce.

I love her and I would love to continue our marriage but when times are bad, they are bad! I don't think I can continue. I want to retain my sanity and I feel that if I stay in this marriage the way it is going, I WILL go crazy. I have caught myself doing things I would've never even thought of. I locked myself in the bathroom yesterday and just cried for half an hour. That's NOT me. I was NEVER this weak person who didn't have answers. I'm a tough macho type of guy. I like sports, cars, and manly things. And here I was crunched into a ball on the bathroom floor crying my head off. 

Something has to change. I have made up my mind that I will read and research into this BPD thing and once I have enough knowledge I will confront her about it. I need her to understand what she is doing to me. I will read those books and tell her to read them. Then if things don't turn around, I'm out. This is the end of my rope.

Thank you all for your advice and support. It means a lot to have people encourage me to hang in there and relate to me and show support. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart! I will find an answer. It's time I look out for me.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Mike_S said:


> I will read and research into this BPD thing and once I have enough knowledge I will confront her about it. I need her to understand what she is doing to me.


Mike, if you decide your W is exhibiting most BPD traits at a strong level, I suggest that you NOT tell her about it. If she does have strong BPD traits, she almost certainly will project the accusation back onto you. The projection is done entirely at the subconscious level -- to protect her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. She therefore would be truly convinced that YOU are the one with strong BPD traits.

I also suggest that you see a clinical psychologist (not a MC) -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what you are dealing with. It is important to see a psychologist who has not seen or treated your W because, if she does have strong BPD traits, it is unlikely a therapist will tell her, much less tell you. Therapists generally are loath to tell a BPDer -- or her H -- the name of her disorder (for her own protection). If you are interested, I explain several reasons for that routine withholding of information at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-official-im-getting-divorced.html#post811909.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I agree with Uptown -- I was going to say the same thing. Don't confront her with it. Just use the information you're gaining to help you know how to react, to possibly predict what she'll do next, etc. My ex has very strong PD traits, if not a full-blown PD, and not one therapist has picked it up yet, because those things don't usually come out in a 1 hour appointment.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> I agree with Uptown -- I was going to say the same thing. Don't confront her with it. Just use the information you're gaining to help you know how to react, to possibly predict what she'll do next, etc. My ex has very strong PD traits, if not a full-blown PD, and not one therapist has picked it up yet, because those things don't usually come out in a 1 hour appointment.



Not only that, but BPDers are such fantastic liars and chameleons that it is highly likely they will fool their therapist.

Don't confront her. BPDers are super-sensitive to any criticism, and this will not go well for you. 

Usually, the only person who knows/suspects a person has a disorder like BPD is their intimate partner. BPDers usually have no issue with casual acquaintances. In fact, they are probably well liked in social circles, and can be quite attractive and charming.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I had opportunity to speak to the therapist ex was seeing in the months after I moved out, but ex was still on my insurance. He was absolutely dumbfounded to find out that I was in therapy for emotional and verbal abuse, and was attending a support group for women coming out of abusive relationships. He had no idea that my ex was like that. Ex had also told him a very twisted story of how our break-up happened, too.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Oh Mike, I am so sorry you're going through this. Please continue to take a step back and talk this situation through like you're doing. Your wife sounds psychologically abusive to me too, and it's no surprise that you feel so depressed. Anyone would be in that situation. 

Definitely get yourself into individual counseling. Anti-depressants might get you through this spell too. Take whatever help you can get! 

How are you doing today?


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## Mike_S (Jun 22, 2013)

I don't see my wife being so extreme as to telling twisted stories if we go our separate ways. But then again, I am not entirely sure. It is a possibility if she has these BPD traits. 

I started reading Stop Walking on Eggshells and I see some hope as of right now. I will take everyone's advice and not confront her but how should I help her realize her problem? She has to make an effort to better herself as well if this thing is going to work. I want to help her. I am reading in this book that a BPDer's life is hell, not knowing how or what they're going to feel from one minute to the next. Can I help her?

Several times in the past, she's made comments that something is wrong with her and that she's an emotional wreck. I just attributed that to her periods. I strongly believed, and she still thinks now, that she has really bad PMS if not PMDD. She's been to several doctors for it and even saw a naturalist who subscribed her natural supplements. Every doctor told her she has thyroid issues and there's some sort of imbalance there.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Mike, promise me you will not harm yourself before getting proffesional help. everyone at TAM are great people, but most of us are qualfied therapist. Best wishes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Mike-- This is actually hopeful news. Is she getting any treatment for her thyroid? Thyroid can definitely affect mood (I'm low thyroid myself), but I've honestly never read anything that says thyroid imbalance (high or low) can cause what you're talking about. Has anyone ever asked her to do a diary to make note of the cycles of her emotions, to see if they coordinate with her menstrual cycle? Those things really do need to be eliminated as problems before she's labeled as BPD. 

And -- thyroid is an incredibly cheap fix, it just takes some testing and adjustments to get a proper dose. There are two types she can take -- levothyroxin (which contains only 1 part of the hormone) and a natural thyroid like Armour (made from pigs) which has both parts. I have to take Armour because my body doesn't make either part in enough quantity. 

I'm also at an age where my female hormones are starting to get wonky. I just started using progesterone in March. It has made a really big difference in my mood and even in my thinking, memory, etc. It's weird to think that something like that makes a difference, but it does.

Encourage her to get this taken care of -- I'm sure you probably have, but see if you can enlist anyone else to help convince her. If she feels like a wreck, she's not enjoying the life she has, either. Getting the medical help really can make a difference. You might find out that the other issues can be repaired. It's definitely worth looking into.

Does she have any childhood trauma that you know of? It's rare that someone has a personality disorder without some type of childhood trauma. 

I agree with Thound and will reiterate what I said before -- YOU will feel much better if you get yourself into some counseling, too. I hope you're following through on that.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

I've read that BPD emotional swings can worsen during menstruation. 

PMS+BPD= run like h3ll !

During the early years of my marriage to my crazy, I was certain that it was BC pills that were causing her extreme mood swings and irrational behavior. So, after our second child was born I volunteered to get a vasectomy...so she could get off the pill. 

Needless to say that was a major fail.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

> I feel like in every argument we have I spend 99% of it trying to explain myself or my intentions.


I'm not discounting BPD, can't speak to it myself. But to YOUR end of things, this sounds like *defensiveness. * Stop spending 99% of the conversation defending yourself and instead listen to what she is saying. Defensiveness is described as one of the four horsemen (M killers) by John Gottman. You might check that out for yourself. Remember, you can't do anything to change _her_, but you can change _you_. That in itself is empowering.


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## Mike_S (Jun 22, 2013)

angelpixie, I'm not sure if she's had any childhood trauma. She hasn't mentioned anything to me about it. Matter of fact, she hasn't said a whole lot about her childhood overall. It's possible that there could be trauma there, but I don't think she'd be very forthcoming with information since she hasn't said anything in the past 8+ years. A couple of years ago, her brother took his own life and she was completely distraught. She blamed herself for it because of an argument she had with her brother the night of his passing. But our problems have been going on long before her brother's passing. 

Also, she hasn't kept a diary but I've been with her for 8+ years and I am very in tune with her cycles. It's usually a week or so before her period and a week after it that she gets moody and I am on high alert for the those 2 1/2 weeks. She's said many times that she feels normal only a week out of every month. And that is pretty much true. There are less arguments (and less intense) during that time.

SlowCreek, it is one thing to be defensive and another thing when the other person twists your words around and makes it seem like you're saying something or intending something you're not. Being defensive means I have done something wrong and am trying to hide it or minimize it. She explodes at me at the most random things and I am taken completely by surprise. She thinks I mean something else when I don't. Then I try to explain that what she is thinking is not true and that I mean something else. She doesn't want to listen to my explanation and continues to believe what she wants to believe. This is what I mean by my spending almost every argument trying to explain myself. I don't think that's being defensive.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

No, that's crazymaking.

Is she on BC pills, or on any type of medication to try to regulate her hormones? I was on BC pills a couple of times and didn't notice a problem with mood, as I was already being treated for depression during those times. After I had a miscarriage, I went back on the pill, and it was an emotional nightmare. _Then_, I went back and looked at the other times I was on the pill, and they all corresponded to times when my depression was a lot worse. Unfortunately, things like this, and even the thyroid issue mentioned earlier are minimized by the medical community. It's frustrating to not get help after going to multiple doctors, but if you can relate it to her cycle, and she knows it, too. That's totally an avenue worth exploring.

The abusive behavior issue isn't really going to be solved if her mood swings aren't taken care of , or at least minimized.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

> Being defensive means I have done something wrong and am trying to hide it or minimize it.


 I disagree. I found it described as "self-protection in the form of righteous indignation or innocent victimhood in an attempt to ward off a perceived attack."

Her inaccurate/invalid accusation is on _her._ But your response to her accusation is on _you._ Let me ask you, does your effort of correcting/explaining/defending have the desired effect? Does she hear you and back off and apologize for misinterpreting your words/actions? If not, (which I suspect is the case,) then stop doing it. It's a waste of time and energy and detrimental to the R. Besides, it sounds like you can eliminate 99% of the argument. There's a win! It stinks to be falsely accused and thought of negatively when it's unfounded, but you're wasting your time, while adding fuel to the conflict.

The fact is, the best defense is usually a good offense. Offensiveness is a M killer. Instead of defending/explaining, try the following responses when she falsely accuses you:
"I'm sorry you feel that way."
"I hear that you're upset by that. Is there anything I can do right now to correct that?"
"I don't remember it that way, but you obviously do. It would help me in the future if you point out my offensive behavior immediately, so that we're not required to revisit the past with only our memories as evidence, especially when yours and mine differs."
"I appreciate your perspective. I certainly don't want to act X with you, so I will take what you said into consideration in the future. Again, it would help if you point it out to me at the time it happens, in case I'm not aware that I'm doing it."

Please know that I'm not discounting anything anyone else is saying. She could be 99% of the problem in the M and full-on BPD; it's simply not my area of experience. 

But you're here, she's not. Dropping the defensiveness will defuse the arguments, enhance _your_ life immeasurably, and possibly help the M too as a side benefit.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Mike_S said:


> It is a possibility *if she has these BPD traits*.


Mike, there is no "if" about it. She definitely exhibits all 9 BPD traits at least occasionally. We all do. That's why BPD is said to be a "spectrum" disorder, which means we all exhibit the traits to some degree. This is why the traits are so easy to spot if you take time to learn which behaviors to look for.

These traits arise from basic human ego defenses that we all rely on heavily for survival during childhood. That is, we exhibit the traits on a 24/7 basis during early childhood and then -- in the early teens -- many (if not most) of us starting exhibiting them strongly again for several years due to the hormone changes. This is why psychologists generally refuse to diagnose BPD until the person is at least 18. At low levels, these traits generally continue to valuable all the way through adulthood. They become a problem only when they are so strong that they distort one's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations.

At issue, then, is not whether your W has the nine traits. Of course she does. Rather, at issue is whether she has most of them at a *strong* and *persistent* level. With respect to the "strength," you cannot determine whether her traits are so severe as to meet 100% of the diagnostic guidelines for "having BPD," i.e., having the full-blown disorder itself. Only professionals can make that determination.

Not having met her, I cannot tell you whether her BPD traits are at a strong level. I nonetheless am confident that you are capable of spotting the red flags. There is a world of difference between making a "diagnosis" and simply spotting the nine warning signs (strong occurrences of the traits). There is nothing subtle about symptoms such as verbal abuse, temper tantrums, and always being "The Victim."

As to the "persistence" of the traits, I note that folks having the full-blown disorder typically will exhibit strong traits every two or three weeks, if not sooner. With them, these traits do not disappear for years at a time. Indeed, the only time they usually disappear is for 3 to 6 months during the courtship period, at which time the BPDer's infatuation convinces her that her partner is the perfect man who will not hurt her. In that way, the infatuation holds her two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. The fears return -- bringing back the strong BPD traits -- as soon as the infatuation evaporates.


> I just attributed that to her periods. I strongly believed, and she still thinks now, that she has really bad PMS if not PMDD. ...Every doctor told her she has thyroid issues and there's some sort of imbalance there.


Even we "Nons" (i.e., nonBPDers) occasionally exhibit strong BPD traits. Remember, BPD is not a disease. Rather, it is only a "syndrome," i.e., a set of behavioral characteristics. Hence, whenever you see a person exhibiting most of the traits in that set of behaviors, you ARE seeing a pattern of BPD traits -- regardless of whether those traits are severe enough to be called a "disorder" or not.

Such flareups of one's BPD traits can be caused by drug abuse, a brain injury, a brain tumor, or intense stress. When you get very angry at someone, for example, you likely suffer from the very same thought distortions that BPDers are notorious for. The human condition is that, whenever we experience very intense feelings (e.g., anger or infatuation), our judgment goes out the window. 

Nearly all of us have had that happen so many hundreds of times that, by the time we are in high school, we already know we cannot trust our own judgment when our feelings are intense. That's why we usually try to keep our mouths shut -- and our fingers off the keys -- until we've had a chance to cool down. And that's why we try to wait at least a year before buying the ring.

Another common cause of BPD flareups is hormone changes, as should be apparent to anyone who has gone through puberty, pregnancy, postpartum, or the "midlife change." Significantly, these hormone changes typically can last as long as two years (with postpartum) or several years (with puberty). At those times, we "Nons" can exhibit a strong pattern of BPD traits.

This distinction between a temporary flareup of BPD traits and the lifetime disorder is very important. Whereas the flareups may be treated quite successfully by simply swallowing a pill (e.g., a hormone replacement), a lifetime problem of having strong traits cannot be treated with medication. Instead, treatment would require years of intensive therapy to retrain the brain to think in a more emotionally mature manner. Sadly, it is rare for a person with strong, persistent BPD traits to be willing to stay in therapy long enough to make a real difference.


> Can I help her?


That depends. If she is only experiencing a temporary flareup of BPD traits, you may be able to help her by encouraging her to see a doctor (ideally, a psychiatrist) who can determine what is causing those flareups.

If it is a lifetime problem, however, your ability "to help" is extremely limited. Indeed, if she is exhibiting most BPD traits at a strong and persistent level (e.g., every 2 or 3 weeks), my experience is that you likely cannot help at all. Because such a person is incapable of trusting you, she almost certainly will ignore your advice -- figuring that you are just trying to control her. 

On the other hand, if she has only moderate (but permanent) traits, you may find that your relationship is substantially improved by using the "validating" techniques discussed in the _Eggshells_ book. If the traits are strong, however, my experience is that all the validation in the world makes little difference because your relationship will remain toxic.


> I started reading _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ and I see some hope as of right now.


As I said, the validation techniques taught in that book will be helpful if you are dealing with a moderate level of BPD traits. If your W has strong and persistent traits, however, she likely will tolerate your presence only as long as you are playing the "savior" and "perpetrator" roles I describe at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522 (which I mentioned above). You are allowed to play those two roles because she so desperately wants validation of her false self image of being "The Victim." Importantly, the validation techniques recommended by the _Eggshells_ book call for validating her feelings, not her false self image.


> Several times in the past, she's made comments that something is wrong with her and that she's an emotional wreck.


If she is a BPDer (i.e., has strong traits), those brief periods are called "moments of clarity." In my 15 year marriage, for example, I saw my exW do that maybe 5 or 6 times. It typically happens when the high functioning BPDer is so fearful you are going to abandon her that she will flip from "acting out" to "acting in," i.e., turning her anger inward onto herself.

When that happens, a high functioning BPDer typically will admit to mistakes and be very critical of herself, revealing her self loathing -- behavior that otherwise is rarely seen. With my exW, such episodes were very frightening to me because she would be trembling and shaking -- and appearing to be disintegrating right in front of me. When you witness such an event, you will know the meaning of "emotional breakdown." It is rare, however, for these experiences to have any lasting effect. With my exW, it was business as usual a few days later.

A rare exception to that outcome is experience of BPDers who have both the self-awareness and ego strength to stay in touch with their issues and to learn how to manage them in years of therapy. Although you likely will meet several of these "self aware BPDers" here on TAM, it is unlikely you will ever knowingly meet one in your personal life. I say that because I never have even though I've met many BPDers.


> I'm not sure if she's had any childhood trauma.


Nobody has proven to a certainty what it is that causes BPD. Psychologists widely believe, however, that it likely is caused by a genetic predisposition and/or an early-childhood trauma (e.g., abandonment or abuse or an emotionally unavailable mother). 

This view seems to be supported by a recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults. It found that 30% of BPDers reported that they had never been abused or abandoned in childhood. It therefore seems that, if either the genetics or the abuse is sufficiently severe, just one of them is sufficient to cause BPD.

I mention the apparent importance of genetics (by itself) because it strongly suggests that BPD is not always caused by bad parenting. Moreover, given that your W's brother committed suicide at a young age, there may be evidence in her family tree of mental issues being passed from one generation to the other (either through genetics or abuse of the children).


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Thanks for the correction, Uptown -- you are right -- current thought is considering genetics, not just environmental causes.


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## Mike_S (Jun 22, 2013)

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> I disagree. I found it described as "self-protection in the form of righteous indignation or innocent victimhood in an attempt to ward off a perceived attack."


Ok, if it's justified then by this definition a person should have every right to be defensive. You're telling me that if someone is wrongfully attacking you, you shouldn't defend yourself? How about a physical attack? If someone throws something at you, you should just stand there and take the hit? LOL It's human nature to defend yourself if you're being wrongfully accused of saying or doing something. If this is the definition that is widely accepted, then being defensive should not carry a negative connotation with it. But it does, and that is why I presume that in this context it means the person being defensive is trying to hide something that he/she has done wrong. That makes more sense to me.

If I go by your definition, yes, I am being defensive, and I have EVERY right to be. I have done nothing wrong and I am being misunderstood and treated as if I have done wrong.

She comes around a day or two later and apologizes after I say the same things over and over and over. Being offensive in the moment of having just been snapped at isn't going to be my initial response naturally. But it is good advice and I will try. Although, I have tried some form of it and was accused of either changing the subject or putting the blame on her. But that's usually not during the initial argument.


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## Mike_S (Jun 22, 2013)

thanks, uptown. She is constantly looking for validation and although I give it to her from time to time, she expects it all the time. I am not going to try and diagnose her. As you said, just watch for red flags. I did not know about this BPD thing before but now that I know I can study and learn about it and see the red flags more clearly. I will try the techniques outlined in the book and hopefully things will improve. 

It's also very interesting that you mention genetics and mental issues in her family. She's said to me several times that something is wrong with her family. That they have mental issues and she thinks they're all crazy. These words came out of her mouth. I don't know what to make of that. I just told her everyone has some crazy in them.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

> If I go by your definition, yes, I am being defensive, and I have EVERY right to be. I have done nothing wrong and I am being misunderstood and treated as if I have done wrong.


Ok, then, since the defensiveness is working so well for you, by all means, keep doing it!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Mike_S said:


> I am not going to try and diagnose her. As you said, just watch for red flags.


Mike, for the purpose of deciding whether to remain married to her, it does not really matter whether she has the full-blown disorder (i.e., meets 100% of the diagnostic criteria for "having BPD"). That criteria is set at such a high threshold that it primarily serves only the interests of the courts and insurance companies, who insisted upon a bright line when that threshold was adopted in 1980. 

This is so because, like all the other PDs, BPD is a "spectrum disorder." This means that, like selfishness and resentment, BPD traits are merely behavioral symptoms that everybody has to some degree. It therefore was ridiculous for the psychiatric community to adopt a dichotomous approach -- wherein a client is deemed "to have" or "not have" BPD.

Granted, this "yes or no" approach makes perfect sense in every field of the medical sciences, where clients are found to either have a disease or not. Chickenpox, for example, is something a person either "has" or "does not have." This is why, in the medical sciences, "disorder" means "disease." In psychiatry, however, it does not mean that with respect to PDs. There is NO KNOWN DISEASE that causes any of the ten personality disorders (PDs). Hence, in psychiatry, a personality "disorder" simply means "group of behavioral symptoms typically occurring together" (aka a "syndrome").

Of course, a substantial segment of the psychiatric community knew in 1980 that this dichotomous approach to diagnosis makes no sense for behavioral symptoms that vary in intensity from person to person. They knew it is senseless to say a person meeting only 95% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder."

Doing so is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'4" as "short" and everyone under 250 pounds as "skinny." The psychiatric community adopted this silly approach only because the insurance companies (and the courts) -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnoses from the medical community -- were pressing for a single, bright line being drawn between those clients they would cover (or institutionalize) and those they would not cover.

I mention all this to explain why, for a person deciding whether to remain married, obtaining a diagnosis of "no BPD" is unlikely to be helpful. It may be as useless as telling a blind man "There is no BUS coming" when he is deciding whether to step into a crosswalk. Importantly, a person satisfying 75% or 85% of the diagnostic criteria -- and, hence, "not having BPD" -- may be nearly as difficult to live with as a person satisfying 100%. 

This is why it is prudent to learn how to spot the red flags. And this is why it is prudent to confirm your conclusions by obtaining a second opinion from your own psychologist who has never seen or treated your W. In that way, you can be assured that the psychologist is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

How are you doing, Mike? Please check in & let us know you're OK. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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