# Is the ''forever gf'' zone a real thing nowadays?



## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

I don't know if it's just me noticing this but more women are nowadays stuck at the ''forever gf'' zone. I've noticed this phenomenon isn't just happening in the USA but in some latin American countries too. Those women are either living together or dating their men for 5+ yrs without an engagement ring and no kids and wondering when is he going to propose. Or the man keeps postponing things, saying what they want to hear, keeping them with false hopes, says he loves her, one day we'll have kids but she's stuck in the gf zone. 

The men get too comfortable, don't progress to marriage and by the time they realized their men won't marry them, they are already 30+ years old. I got out of that zone last year. Even though my current bf and I've been dating for 10 months (we're not living together and waiting till marriage), I really have desires to be proposed and have a child. I don't want to be a forever gf. I don't want to date forever. 

Is this ''forever gf'' zone a real thing nowadays?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

It’s not just the men that are behind this. 

Women themselves are postponing or even forgoing marriage by their own choice as well.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I don't know if it's just me noticing this but more women are nowadays stuck at the ''forever gf'' zone. I've noticed this phenomenon isn't just happening in the USA but in some latin American countries too. Those women are either living together or dating their men for 5+ yrs without an engagement ring and no kids and wondering when is he going to propose. Or the man keeps postponing things, saying what they want to hear, keeping them with false hopes, says he loves her, one day we'll have kids but she's stuck in the gf zone.
> 
> The men get too comfortable, don't progress to marriage and by the time they realized their men won't marry them, they are already 30+ years old. I got out of that zone last year. Even though my current bf and I've been dating for 10 months (we're not living together and waiting till marriage), I really have desires to be proposed and have a child. I don't want to be a forever gf. I don't want to date forever.
> 
> Is this ''forever gf'' zone a real thing nowadays?


It's not as much of thing in my area but I live in a conservative part of the midwest US. It seems like there are more traditional values around here than what I read about on TAM or see in the news.

I only know of 1 couple (3 kids) that aren't married and I don't blame her, he’s an idiot.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I don't know if it's just me noticing this but more women are nowadays stuck at the ''forever gf'' zone. I've noticed this phenomenon isn't just happening in the USA but in some latin American countries too. Those women are either living together or dating their men for 5+ yrs without an engagement ring and no kids and wondering when is he going to propose. Or the man keeps postponing things, saying what they want to hear, keeping them with false hopes, says he loves her, one day we'll have kids but she's stuck in the gf zone.
> 
> The men get too comfortable, don't progress to marriage and by the time they realized their men won't marry them, they are already 30+ years old. I got out of that zone last year. Even though my current bf and I've been dating for 10 months (we're not living together and waiting till marriage), I really have desires to be proposed and have a child. I don't want to be a forever gf. I don't want to date forever.
> 
> Is this ''forever gf'' zone a real thing nowadays?


Yes it’s a thing and while it has expanded it isn’t new.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

People don't have to put up with it but they do.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I don't know if it's just me noticing this but more women are nowadays stuck at the ''forever gf'' zone. I've noticed this phenomenon isn't just happening in the USA but in some latin American countries too. Those women are either living together or dating their men for 5+ yrs without an engagement ring and no kids and wondering when is he going to propose. Or the man keeps postponing things, saying what they want to hear, keeping them with false hopes, says he loves her, one day we'll have kids but she's stuck in the gf zone.
> 
> The men get too comfortable, don't progress to marriage and by the time they realized their men won't marry them, they are already 30+ years old. I got out of that zone last year. Even though my current bf and I've been dating for 10 months (we're not living together and waiting till marriage), I really have desires to be proposed and have a child. I don't want to be a forever gf. I don't want to date forever.
> 
> Is this ''forever gf'' zone a real thing nowadays?


It is when a woman shows a man she wouldn’t be a good wife. What’s in it for the man nowadays?


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> It is when a woman shows a man she wouldn’t be a good wife. What’s in it for the man nowadays?


But he hangs on to her as a gf and lives with her and has kids? 

I think it's more the rebellious youth that don't want the “institution” of marriage because it's the old people thing and besides who want to be chained for life. It's “cool” to just Netflix and chill and don't have life responsibilities with another person. Even if the couple are happy with the other and would make a great husband/wife.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Young people want to burn down society nowadays, It's no leap to think marriage is on the chopping block.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

With the way courts treat men in divorce, people are staring to gunshy.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think we need to evolve away from this idea that men provide and women are dependents because this is what causes men to get shafted in court. It only works when women have no options and can't leave.

Besides, women are working so they don't need to be dependents that men are responsible for after divorce.

Once we get away from this line of thinking we'll also get away from this idea that women benefit from marriage, men don't, and are doing us a big fat favor to marry us. If we get to the point that people see a benefit to being married people will get married more often. Couples will work out arrangements that suit them and if it doesn't work out they'll go their separate ways with nobody being shafted.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Evinrude58 said:


> It is when a woman shows a man she wouldn’t be a good wife. What’s in it for the man nowadays?


One advantage is that unlike some years ago where seemingly everything was a "man's job" and the guy became more of a donkey than a man, the tables have turned a bit. Women now often are better educated and higher compensated than the guys they are with. So all that responsibility and hard work is no longer mandatory. 

So then as long as they are getting laid and they generally live well together they'll stall the women as long as they can.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

The OP and some posters are blaming this on men, but it is women that are leading and providing the momentum for this social change. 

Men are simply complying… some even grudgingly. 

It’s women that are delaying for forgoing traditional marriage and childbearing to pursue education and career and riding the carousel and it’s women that are instigating and leading that change. 

If a man were to complain or to declare that he wanted a traditional marriage, he would be accused of being patriarchal and controlling and abusive and people would be demonstrating in the streets and screaming of oppression. 

If women were to insist on marriage and commitment before sex and to have families before they turn 30, men would comply with that as well.

So I think it’s unfair that men are being portrayed as the perpetrators that are depriving women when it is in fact women that have lead and are continuing to lead this change.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

My wife has a friend at work going through this right now. They've been bf/gf for 5 years. She is starting to want to buy a house and stuff, but he's not proposing and she doesn't know how to proceed with the relationship as is. He doesn't have an incentive to get married unless she is willing to walk, but does she really want to start a marriage like that? Let's see what happens. My bet is they just keep on being bf/gf until she gets desperate to have a kid one day then wants to find Mr Rightnow when she should have been thinking about it years ago.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

hamadryad said:


> So then as long as they are getting laid and they generally live well together they'll stall the women as long as they can.


But is it really the men that are stalling??


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

So I just asked my wife. Looks like they will try to buy the house without getting married.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

They're not stuck anywhere, they can end the relationship any time they choose if it's not going in the direction they want it to.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Loves Coffee said:


> My wife has a friend at work going through this right now. *They've been bf/gf for 5 years.* She is starting to want to buy a house and stuff, but he's not proposing and she doesn't know how to proceed with the relationship as is...


By this standard, my wife and I would be guilty of this except it was what we both wanted. We dated for 7 years before getting married. We've been together for 34 years and married for 27. That communication thing is pretty important.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Loves Coffee said:


> My wife has a friend at work going through this right now. They've been bf/gf for 5 years. She is starting to want to buy a house and stuff, but he's not proposing and she doesn't know how to proceed with the relationship as is. He doesn't have an incentive to get married unless she is willing to walk, but does she really want to start a marriage like that? Let's see what happens. My bet is they just keep on being bf/gf until she gets desperate to have a kid one day then wants to find Mr Rightnow when she should have been thinking about it years ago.


The friend needs to talk to her partner, "the lack of progression in our relationship is making me feel uncertain about our future, I am going to go stay with family while I decide what to do". What he does next will tell her everything.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think we need to evolve away from this idea that men provide and women are dependents because this is what causes men to get shafted in court. It only works when women have no options and can't leave.
> 
> Besides, women are working so they don't need to be dependents that men are responsible for after divorce.
> 
> Once we get away from this line of thinking we'll also get away from this idea that women benefit from marriage, men don't, and are doing us a big fat favor to marry us. If we get to the point that people see a benefit to being married people will get married more often. _ Couples will work out arrangements that suit them and if it doesn't work out they'll go their separate ways with nobody being shafted._


Yes, but those dastardly feelings; they always surface, and drown one, or both, in pain; that agony and sorrow, surely, sorely follows.

Only a few are those pure, and cool *Martians*.
That, self serving, self centered lot.

Logic and love is that oil and water situation.
The two never meld.

Nor, do children and those parent failings, mix well.

There is no peace to be found in Mankind.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

frusdil said:


> The friend needs to talk to her partner, "the lack of progression in our relationship is making me feel uncertain about our future, I am going to go stay with family while I decide what to do". What he does next will tell her everything.


I'm sure it will come to a head eventually, but who knows how long it will take. I'm sure I'll find out eventually.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

oldtruck said:


> Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?


While this sounds logical, I'm not sure if that always applies. My parents had already done it during their relationship and he still married her afterwards. Not every women in my family waited till marriage (they weren't virgins in the wedding) but they still got married. I guess the times were different and I'm now in a very difficult era.
Nowadays if we give it away in a relationship, there is a higher chance he'll stall us for as long as he wants to.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

frusdil said:


> The friend needs to talk to her partner, "the lack of progression in our relationship is making me feel uncertain about our future, I am going to go stay with family while I decide what to do". What he does next will tell her everything.


This. If he tells her any of these things:
''Oh but honey, marriage is just a piece of paper, we're already committed, all the matters is we love each other. I don't need a paper telling me you're my wife. We're family already.''
''Don't worry honey, one day we'll have kids (without giving a specific timeframe with clear goals)''
''But honey it's too early and I'm not ready yet''

Then she needs to leave at that point.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

What's with the damn pressure to marry, sometimes people just want to be sure.
I was with my ex almost 4 years before I proposed, yet she said yes then we broke up 3 months later so it was a waste of an engagement in the tens of thousands of dollars.

Never making the same mistake again. Marry when its the right time.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

RandomDude said:


> What's with the damn pressure to marry, sometimes people just want to be sure.
> I was with my ex almost 4 years before I proposed, yet she said yes then we broke up 3 months later so it was a waste of an engagement.
> 
> Never making the same mistake again. Marry when its the right time.


It depends on how old she is. I'm currently 35 years old and can't wait 4+ years in relationship.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Sprinkles87 said:


> It depends on how old she is. I'm currently 35 years old and can't wait 4+ years in relationship.


People marry at all ages, what's the rush? Is it just about children?


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

RandomDude said:


> People marry at all ages, what's the rush? Is it just about children?


I might not be able to have any when I'm 40 or pregnancy might be extremely difficulty by then. You men don't have a limited time to have kids. We do.
They're not just children. I want to form a family.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I might not be able to have any when I'm 40 or pregnancy might be extremely difficulty by then. *You men don't have a limited time to have kids.* We do.
> They're not just children. I want to form a family.


We do too actually. I have 3 years left and I know I won't marry within that time even if I meet the love of my life.

But hey I'm divorced so I'm more cautious, yet I succumbed to the pressure with my ex because I loved her even though deep down in my heart I knew we weren't ready.
If you want to build a family don't rush the foundation.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

women hold the cookie jar , if you give the man all of what is in the cookie jar why does he need to give you more 

it is like this women are in control no mater what they say it is the woman that has the power ,
I am talking about adult women 

a man will do anything he needs to for sex 
hell you see some men are willing to pay for an education for a girl if she gives him what he wants it is called sugar daddy
some men invest more and pay for a house and car for their mistress just to have some cookie on the side , 

Women hold the power 
but some give it all up too easy 
you meet a new guy if on the first night you have sex with him and it does not have to be full PIV but you let him put his hand on your privets he is thinking god man this was easy 

don't forget the " easy woman " was not a thing of yesterday the only thing that hac changed is there are more and it is more expectable and if your a woman that is happy to live in that world and end up to be the forever GF THEN GO FOR IT 

there are women that are independent want to use their sexual power to pull and play with men and don't want to get locked down with all the things a marriage is 

men want to get up the job pole and want to build their little empire but with 50% divorce if they find a woman that is willing to be a wife without the ring they are going to take it ,

What people think is the reason for divorce ? most people think the no 1 Reason is cheating 
But it is not it is only in 3th place with a good percentage of that been by the woman so the man cheating is a long way down 

THE NUMBER ONE REASON IS 

Conflict, arguing, irretrievable breakdown in the relationship


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> We do too actually. I have 3 years left and I know I won't marry within that time even if I meet the love of my life.
> 
> But hey I'm divorced so I'm more cautious, yet I succumbed to the pressure with my ex because I loved her even though deep down in my heart I knew we weren't ready.
> If you want to build a family don't rush the foundation.


WTAF?

You are a man. Unless your reproductive system is different from all of the other men on the planet, you will continue to prodice sperm into old age. If i recall correctly you age in your 30s. 

NO, you do not have 3 years left. You could father a brand new pack of kids with someone DECADES from now. Women have no such luxury.

It's not anywhere near the same. 

Decades.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Livvie said:


> WTAF?
> 
> You are a man. Unless your reproductive system is different from all of the other men on the planet, you will continue to prodice sperm into old age. If i recall correctly you age in your 30s.
> 
> ...


🤷‍♂️ 

Thats what the science says about me turning 40 that my kids after that are going to have issues or what not. Genetic abnormalities and all that.

Sure I may father another child... with special needs. Nah I'm good thanks 🙂

As for women yes, it's different, just saying we shouldn't be enslaved by our biological clock.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

I don't believe in marriage anymore so I have no problem with this "new" way of living.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

RandomDude said:


> 🤷‍♂️
> 
> Thats what the science says about me turning 40 that my kids after that are going to have issues or what not. Genetic abnormalities and all that.
> 
> ...


The quality of sperm declining but still being able to produce them even till old age is different from both the decline of egg quality and then no viable eggs available to get pregnant at all. Having a chance to reproduce at least is still better than having no chance at all.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

Numb26 said:


> I don't believe in marriage anymore so I have no problem with this "new" way of living.


Are you straight forward from the beginning about it? There are a couple men that actually lie about wanting marriage and kids or keep the woman with false hopes.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Sprinkles87 said:


> The quality of sperm declining but still being able to produce them even till old age is different from both the decline of egg quality and then no viable eggs available to get pregnant at all. Having a chance to reproduce at least is still better than having no chance at all.


Heh for me it's the same probably bc I already decided not to risk it once I turn 40. I understand that you may not have such a choice however.

So would you rather wait until your partner is ready or dump him and start over with someone who would marry you within 6 months? Has your partner told you specifically why hes holding off?


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

RandomDude said:


> Heh for me it's the same probably bc I already decided not to risk it once I turn 40. I understand that you may not have such a choice however.


That's fine if you don't want to risk it. With early check-ups, it's still possible to have a healthy child. I'm at the point where having a child (even if they ended up on the mild spectrum) would make me feel so complete. 


RandomDude said:


> So would you rather wait until your partner is ready or dump him and start over with someone who would marry you within 6 months? Has your partner told you specifically why hes holding off?


I was straight forward from the start that we're dating with intention (dating to get married) and he knows we can't be dating for 3+ years. He is currently progressing on remodeling his apartments and its spaces so he can have more people renting the rooms and earn more. We're not from the USA and people's salaries are less here.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Sprinkles87 said:


> That's fine if you don't want to risk it. With early check-ups, it's still possible to have a healthy child. I'm at the point where having a child (even if they ended up on the mild spectrum) would make me feel so complete.


Many abnormalities happen at or shortly after conception. "Early checkups" won't do **** to prevent it, unless your version of preventing is abortion. 

And conditions go undiagnosed until birth, even with all the testing these days - BTDT. You may not have any clue whether they will be ill or not, let alone "mild" or not.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Just got out of one of these, 3 1/2 years as "friends" telling me how sincere he was about me and our relationship, telling me how good we are together and then days later found out he was seeing someone else too. One of my lady friends has been seeing a man for 2 years, same thing so she has decided not to see him anymore. Same girlfriend has a sister who had been dating a man for 9 years, seeing him on weekends....he spends the night and then goes to his house during the week, no commitment. One of my clients just recently got married after 9 years with the same man. Was at the comedy club recently and the comedian asked if there were any newlyweds, 2 couples said they had dated 6 & 7 years. 

Waiting out that highly hormonal phase is good but beyond that point if two people really are serious about the other then I see no reason to drag the dating process out 5+ years. As I move forward I will be upfront that I am looking for a LTR and that at 6 months I would like to do a check in. No more friends with benefits for me. You are going to have to be the one who sets the boundaries and establishes the pace.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

AVR1962 said:


> Waiting out that highly hormonal phase is good but beyond that point if two people really are serious about the other then I see no reason to drag the dating process out 5+ years. As I move forward I will be upfront that I am looking for a LTR and that at 6 months I would like to do a check in. No more friends with benefits for me. You are going to have to be the one who sets the boundaries and establishes the pace.


I'm glad you got out of the pointless, dead-end zone. Indeed there is no reason for dating to be dragging for too long because that's really not the normal process. At some point, since he has been keeping her in the gf zone for too long then might as well call it a ''friends with benefits'' relationship. I feel that those men stalling women for too long are only 'bfs'' by name. At the point, he's more of a FWB than an actual (no different than a fun, casual relationship but he can't tell the woman that so he keeps saying bf and gf), serious bf that wants marriage. After all, he's the one being comfortable with the way things are, having a gf to enjoy his time but no real goals to progress things.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I'm glad you got out of the pointless, dead-end zone. Indeed there is no reason for dating to be dragging for too long because that's really not the normal process. At some point, since he has been keeping her in the gf zone for too long then might as well call it a ''friends with benefits'' relationship. I feel that those men stalling women for too long are only 'bfs'' by name. At the point, he's more of a FWB than an actual (no different than a fun, casual relationship but he can't tell the woman that so he keeps saying bf and gf), serious bf that wants marriage. After all, he's the one being comfortable with the way things are, having a gf to enjoy his time but no real goals to progress things.


OK but why are you blaming the men for this when it is the women that have changed their dating and sexual strategies from a couple decades ago??

Women are the ones that have changed their practices and strategies. They are the ones that have changed the social paradigm so why are you pointing the fingers at men?


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

All of this throws me for a loop. I am single and would love to meet an awesome man but here I am reading the stories of these couples who weren’t married but living together for years and one decides to leave because there’s no proposal? Shouldn’t it be made clear from the get-go that marriage is what’s being sought?
And if that wasn’t made clear then that was a dumb ass move. 

I can’t imagine being with someone for five years and I love them and then deciding to leave because he hasn’t proposed. I mean unless he pulled a bait and switch.

I’m going to be with someone because I love them.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I might not be able to have any when I'm 40 or pregnancy might be extremely difficulty by then. You men don't have a limited time to have kids. We do.
> They're not just children. I want to form a family.


What stopped you from children in your twenties?

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> OK but why are you blaming the men for this when it is the women that have changed their dating and sexual strategies from a couple decades ago??
> 
> Women are the ones that have changed their practices and strategies. They are the ones that have changed the social paradigm so why are you pointing the fingers at men?


Eh....I dunno...

I can only say this as someone that has been employing mostly 20-40 year old guys for the last 35 years, and having a gaggle of male nephews all born in the last 30 years or so, guys aren't the same as they once were.....

I think what happened is that women are maturing and ascending at a rate faster than guys do, and what the typical 25-28 year old guy is like in terms of maturity and life goals, is where I was(and maybe you too) were at 17...

I started my own business at 23, was married at 24, and had a mortgage to pay shortly after that...And I wasn't really unique, my brother did the same as did a lot of my cousins and friends...Guys now don't even remotely consider this type of life at that age....or even well into their 20s...They are too busy playing games, getting into online gambling, smoking weed, and living at home.. The maturity level is a LOT less than it once was...

Women are killing guys in higher education and subsequently, the workforce...So you wind up with a scenario where guys are not doing much, and letting their GFs be the heavy in the relationship...Add to that the fact that women, I don't believe have lost the romanticism of marriage, child bearing and mothering, and the whole pomp and circumstance surrounding that...All this wasnt the case, 30 years ago when I got married...

In a way, I guess its good, because a lot of us guys in these scenarios became nothing more than donkeys and wound up mostly unfulfilled on a lot of levels..Not all, but a lot did...Maybe these newer guys have a chance to not have all that enormous responsibility and all that comes of it...I guess well see how that works out...


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

farsidejunky said:


> What stopped you from children in your twenties?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


Well my now ex bf and I were on a long distance relationship for too long. We dated once (for nearly a year; not living together) long ago in FL and then I went back to my country. For too long I've been waiting and thinking he would come my country and marry he as he promised. While waiting for him, I was also going to college.

Believing in that liar for too long and not getting rid of him much earlier was my mistake. If he would've done as promised, I calculate that my first child should've been at least at the age of 25-26. Maybe 19-22 years old is too young (ok I wasn't ready at that age) but in the mid 20's would've been ideal.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Not said:


> All of this throws me for a loop. I am single and would love to meet an awesome man but here I am reading the stories of these couples who weren’t married but living together for years and one decides to leave because there’s no proposal? Shouldn’t it be made clear from the get-go that marriage is what’s being sought?
> And if that wasn’t made clear then that was a dumb ass move.
> 
> I can’t imagine being with someone for five years and I love them and then deciding to leave because he hasn’t proposed. I mean unless he pulled a bait and switch.
> ...


What if you love them but you find out that he is seeing someone else? There are some men who can be very convincing that they are serious, their intentions are genuine, they pour it on and all the while they are either still looking.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

Perhaps it might not be fair placing all the blame on men. It was partially my fault for not getting out of that zone sooner. My own parents (esp mom; she hated my ex bf so much) told me many times that he was never coming and that he had no intention of marrying me, that he's a liar. I should've listened to them. 
One thing that won't change is men are generally the gatekeepers of commitment. If he won't open his gate, things won't progress. We can do so much (informing him what we're looking for, our goals and timeframe) but then he also plays a role in this too.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> OK but why are you blaming the men for this when it is the women that have changed their dating and sexual strategies from a couple decades ago??
> 
> Women are the ones that have changed their practices and strategies. They are the ones that have changed the social paradigm so why are you pointing the fingers at men?


Women did not change the game. There has been a great deal over the years that have changed the dating game on both parts. In our grandparents generation dating and marriage were codependently based. The woman was to take care of the children, she was supposed to be dutiful and give to her husband in every way. In exchange he was the person to care for his family financially. Many times, not all, these women were abused physically or emotionally. If a man chose a lover in those days the woman stayed as divorce was frowned upon. In some instances men had children by other women that he either disowned as this would be an embarrassment to the family, or simply denied it could be his. 

Women have fought for years to have justice, to have power as we have been the weaker sex, looked down upon and made to feel inferior just because we are female. We had to shut our mouths when we were abused, when we were raped or assaulted. There was no protection for us. Even our families told us to go back and take it some more, raise the kids and fill the role. Women have had to overcome so much hardship in their lives. 

We now are learning to stand our ground, we are learning to not be the "nice girl" as our parents and society has trained us to be. We have a voice, we get to choose, we no longer have to suffer in silence, we no longer have to do dutiful obligations, we no longer have to have a man to survive. 

How has this changed the dating process? Basically, we no longer need each other....sad but true. Relationships today are by choice in wanting to be with that person and having the desire to make a commitment to each other but it is no longer expected or assumed. Today it is accepted to live together without any formal commitment. This means that ultimately either one can leave at any time, cutting ties is no longer as difficult.

I do think the biggest change in the dating process has more to do with modern dating in general and the fact that porn is now as close as a man's finger tips. Today we have lots of apps with anything from a hook-up, to 3-somes, or something more serious. Men get their needs met without having to obligate themselves. Some men no longer want to care for a woman financially, in many cases. There are pre-nuptials now to help men protect what is theirs. Some men today joke that they have too much to lose by getting married.

What I have witnessed though is that men are not maturing at the rate of women in today's society. Many times men are stuck in a very immature, selfish way of thinking and living. Women today want to have a man that are emotionally available rather than the man (I call boys) who want to sit around and play video games, gock at porn, and basically have very little interaction. Unfortunately, many of these men have not had good examples in their own lives and they repeat what their father did in their childhood home but it is not working for couple today.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Not said:


> All of this throws me for a loop. I am single and would love to meet an awesome man but here I am reading the stories of these couples who weren’t married but living together for years and one decides to leave because there’s no proposal? Shouldn’t it be made clear from the get-go that marriage is what’s being sought?
> And if that wasn’t made clear then that was a dumb ass move.
> 
> I can’t imagine being with someone for five years and I love them and then deciding to leave because he hasn’t proposed. I mean unless he pulled a bait and switch.
> ...


I think this is a function of our point in life. We've been married and divorced.

I'm 48 and been married twice, and the second one was a mistake. I'm not having more kids, have a great job and my own assets, so what's in it for me to remarry? I think my bf is a much better match for me then either of my exes but it doesn't mean there's a benefit to getting married. If he really wanted it I'd consider it but he seems quite happy with our arrangement.

But younger women looking to start families are in a different position. I suppose marriage signifies a certain level of commitment to the family unit during the vulnerable time of child bearing. And it it is risky to mix finances with someone you're not married to, but when you build a life together and have a family it's difficult to keep the finances separate.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

AVR1962 said:


> In our grandparents generation dating and marriage were codependently based. The woman was to take care of the children, she was supposed to be dutiful and give to her husband in every way. In exchange he was the person to care for his family financially. Many times, not all, these women were abused physically or emotionally. If a man chose a lover in those days the woman stayed as divorce was frowned upon. In some instances men had children by other women that he either disowned as this would be an embarrassment to the family, or simply denied it could be his.
> 
> Women have fought for years to have justice, to have power as we have been the weaker sex, looked down upon and made to feel inferior just because we are female. We had to shut our mouths when we were abused, when we were raped or assaulted. There was no protection for us. Even our families told us to go back and take it some more, raise the kids and fill the role. Women have had to overcome so much hardship in their lives.


Sadly my paternal grandfather wasn't a great husband. He used to hit my grandma before dad was born and he had a child from an affair. Then when my dad's 3 siblings (2 sisters and a brother) got older, he couldn't hit her anymroe because it was him against 3 by then. Yes several men were terrible husbands back then. So much for chivalry and fidelity; both thrown down the toilet.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

hamadryad said:


> Eh....I dunno...
> 
> I can only say this as someone that has been employing mostly 20-40 year old guys for the last 35 years, and having a gaggle of male nephews all born in the last 30 years or so, guys aren't the same as they once were.....
> 
> ...


This is a much more complex issue than lay people discussing on the internet can decipher but a lot of things have changed dramatically in the last 50 years.

I personally believe that a quantum leap occurred when safe and effective birth control became available to the masses along with antibiotics and antivirals to treat STIs. 

People stopped marrying young because they could now have sex without the near certainty of pregnancy and not as much fear of disease. 

Without the burden of pregnancy and child rearing, women could now pursue higher education and professional careers unencumbered. 

Both genders could pursue more personal goals without having to create a nest full of hatchlings to feed. 

And of course there were a myriad of social and economic changes that also supported and even favored delayed child rearing. 

Marriage (ie legal contract with legally and socially enforced financial support for her and her children) for women was never romanticized 50 years and beyond ago - it was nuts and bolts survival. 

Socially and in some cases even legally, women were barred from most well paying professions. 

And physiologically they were the ones that carried and nursed the offspring which would inevitably occur if she had sex.

(And we need to also keep in mind that the maternal death rate in childbirth/ post partum was up around 20 or so percent)

So women’s lives and the lives of their offspring literally depended on the support they would receive. 

To put it bluntly- sex was deadly to women if she did not have an enforceable means of support. 

But every aspect of that has changed. It’s a different world medically, financially, economically, socially and legally. 

People no longer marry young because they don’t have to. 

People no longer bare offspring young because they don’t have to.

People don’t marry or have offspring at all if they don’t want because they don’t have to. 

And while women still physiologically bare the responsibility for at least carrying and delivering the next generation of offspring- men no longer bare the full responsibility of financially supporting the entire family. 

Has that caused them to choose less high paying occupations/professions and play more video games?? 

I don’t know it that has caused it, but it has allowed it. 

But getting back to my point - these quantum leaps and major changes in the very foundations and structures of society have occurred on the female side. 

Women have changed the mostest and the fastest and the most dramatically in the last 50 years. 

Men have just simply ridden the wave and been along for the ride. 

So IMHO it is unfair to point the finger at men and say that men are using and abusing women and are shirking their responsibility as men, because the reality is the roles and practices of women are what has made the night and day changes.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> So IMHO it is unfair to point the finger at men and say that men are using and abusing women and are shirking their responsibility as men, because the reality is the roles and practices of women are what has made the night and day changes.


So now this is where Red Pill pundits like Richard Cooper and Rollo Tomassi and even some female Red Pillers like Suzanne Venker are getting their fodder. 

Now we have women in their 30s that spent their 20s drinking and partying and hooking up with Chads and playa’s and bad boys and bikers with tattoos, and road-tripping and partying around the world while obtaining educational degrees and entering into professional careers and having incomes equal to if not surpassing men and generally living the life……

But noooooowwww,,,, Now like the OP, they are in their 30s and are now deciding they want to have babies and raise a family,, but they still want the men to pay for it and they point their fingers at the men and accuse the men of NOT committing and marrying them and planting babies in them in their younger days,,, and are expecting men to just drop everything to hurry up and marry some 35 year old that has screwed 100 men across the globe and commit to her and rub her swollen feet and go out into the night to get her pickle ice cream and haul her to doctor appointments and hold her hand while they do ultrasounds and expect him to do at least 50% of the diaper changes and laundry and clean up at least 50% of the baby puke and then spending the rest of my life in a sexless or near sexless marriage because you had your fun in your 20s and now just want to shift into mommy mode and put those fun times behind you. 

Sorry Sweetie, there are sacrifices and compromises in life. I’m not taking your blame for your drying up ovaries because being Chad and the biker with the tattoos that you got down with in the restroom at the bar sounded like a lot better deal than cleaning up baby puke. 

My point her is not to be insulting but to point out why that criticism is out there and that it was NOT the men that created that dynamic. 

It was women that that changed the rules and the roles, not the men.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> Now like the OP, they are in their 30s and are now deciding they want to have babies and raise a family,, but they still want the men to pay for it and they point their fingers at the men and accuse the men of NOT committing and marrying them and planting babies in them in their younger days,,, and are expecting men to just drop everything to hurry up and marry some 35 year old that has screwed 100 men across the globe and commit to her and rub her swollen feet and go out into the night to get her pickle ice cream and haul her to doctor appointments and hold her hand while they do ultrasounds and expect him to do at least 50% of the diaper changes and laundry and clean up at least 50% of the baby puke and then spending the rest of my life in a sexless or near sexless marriage because you had your fun in your 20s and now just want to shift into mommy mode and put those fun times behind you.
> 
> Sorry Sweetie, there are sacrifices and compromises in life. I’m not taking your blame for your drying up ovaries because being Chad and the biker with the tattoos that you got down with in the restroom at the bar sounded like a lot better deal than cleaning up baby puke.
> 
> ...


You're jumping to conclusion with that elevated sex count. I haven't slept with 100 men. I have only slept with 1 man, that one I was waiting for too long. I'm a very low count woman.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Not said:


> All of this throws me for a loop. I am single and would love to meet an awesome man but here I am reading the stories of these couples who weren’t married but living together for years and one decides to leave because there’s no proposal? Shouldn’t it be made clear from the get-go that marriage is what’s being sought? And if that wasn’t made clear then that was a dumb ass move.


Yes, of course marriage should be brought up early. If he doesn't want to get married and have kids, move on.

These women are not stupid. It's a simple question - would you rather have:

(A) a 100% chance of marriage and children with a guy who is a 6; or

(B) a 1% chance of marriage and children by dating and changing the character and intentions of a guy who is a 9.

Most women would choose A but a substantial and growing percentage of women would choose B. During the relationship, she can brag that her boyfriend is a 9. She might be a side chick, an affair partner or being strung along by the guy, but she knows her worth, she will not settle, and the worst thing a person can do is to settle on love.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sprinkles87 said:


> You're jumping to conclusion with that elevated sex count. I haven't slept with 100 men. I have only slept with 1 man, that one I was waiting for too long. I'm a very low count woman.


I was not speaking to you directly but was making reference the arguments many of the Red Pill pundits are making today. 

As for your situation specifically, I understand your dilemma.... perhaps even more clearly than you do. 

I am approaching 59 years old and I grew up in a very tiny farming village in the midwest and witnessed the end of the "traditional" era as I was coming of age as a child and witnessed the "new" era as a young adult going out into the world. 

One thing that your grandmothers did differently back in the day is they did not mortgage off their futures on credit. The man had to produce and make the commitment and make the downpayments, put the ring on the finger and sign the papers first. Nothing was done on a verbal agreement. 

Often it wasn't even left up to the woman to decide. The suitor would ask her daddy for her hand in marriage and had to meet his approval. 

This was not a token gesture or formality back then. It was an actual function and part of the process. It was not a matter of the young suitor showing up in his sunday best to ask her daddy if he may have her hand and the daddy would say yes or no. 

They would actually sit down with his paperwork and documents showing his educational and professional credentials, his bank account statements, his loan paperwork etc and they would look at the housing market and discuss real estate values and the job markets in his particular profession. 

If he was approved, the proposal would occur and a wedding date set and assuming he showed up at the church on time and said the vows and signed the paperwork, then they were a couple. 

In days before the automobile, this often occured without what we would consider a dating period and many a couple had rarely ever spent any time truly alone together before the wedding. 

As I said above, this was not romance or 'feels.' This was nuts and bolts practicalities and her survival and the survival of of the offspring and both family's lineages would depend on it. Many young women died in childbirth and the days immediately post partum and countless babies died peri partum. People died even when the system did work and actual death was a very real possibility when the system failed. Sex, marriage, child rearing and their support were not romantic but were serious business that lives and legacies depended on. 

Your grandmothers did not take that on credit. Payment in full came first. 

The world has changed since then. Women wanted their own agency and their own autonomy. They didn't want their daddies deciding who they could and could not get with. They wanted sexual agency and autonomy and wanted to decide who they had sex with. They wanted agency and autonomy to determine their own fertility and decide when and under what circumstances to concieve and bear offspring. They wanted agency and autonomy in deciding their education and career paths and to manage their own money and finances. 

Women fought hard for these things. A few men fought to maintain status quo. But most actually supported them and joined in. In time even the few men that did want the status quo relented and conceded the battle was over. The new order was born. 

But whether you think that change was good or bad, or whether it was right or wrong,,, you need to understand it was women that made it happen. It was women pushing for access to safe and effective birth control. It was women organizing the marches and demonstrating in the street. It was women picketing businesses to change their employment practices. It was women boycotting institutions of higher learning for equal access to education, it was women lobbying and meeting with legislators to change the laws and if a particular legislator was pushing back, it was women campaigning for a new legislator to replace him. 

It's your grandmothers, mothers and sisters that fought the good fight to get to where we are today. A small few of your grandfathers, fathers and brothers pushed back. But the vast majority either supported it or at least stayed out of it (most because they were too busy at work working to feed and house an entire family on his one income) 

So I understand your dilemma and understand how you got to where you are now. I sincerely do hope you obtain what you want in life. I am confident that you can. 

But what I do not accept is the accusation that it is men that caused this and that men are at fault for your current marital and parental status today. 

You had agency and autonomy and free choice that millions of people fought very hard for you to have. 

The choices you made along the way were yours.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I'm now going to pick on men for awhile in order to be fair, balanced and real. 

If men embrace sobriety, respect, compassion, kindness, financial responsibility, professional development, physical and mental health, sexual fidelity and hands-on fatherhood and not be drunken, abusive, philandering assholes smoking weed and playing video games and spanking to porn all the time,,, they probably wouldn't be able to decide which busload of women to pick their wives out of. 

Much of the initial women's movement (which I support BTW) was probably born out of the drunkeness and abuses of the few. 

IMHO the first wave of feminism was probably driven largely by women needing to be able to advocate their own survival. 

At the turn of the 20th century, alcoholism was not as we know it today. Today the town alcoholic is the guy who drinks too much after he gets off of work and chugs too much beer while watching football on weekends until he becomes physiologically addicted to it and struggles to maintain a productive life and keep the alcohol from taking over his life and when he picks up some DUIs and gets ordered into rehab by the judge, he goes in and out of rehab a number of times and swings back and forth between periods of relative sobriety and having periods of drunkeness and running into trouble and getting sent back to rehab again. 

At the turn of century countless men were completely crippled and nonfunctional due to severe, chronic alcoholism that impeded every aspect of their lives. Public health had not created safe public drinking water and alcoholic beverages were stronger, unrefined, carried many additional toxins and there was virtually no restrictions or FDA or ATM oversight on quality and safety. 

The push for prohibition was largely lead by the churches but it was just judgemental old church ladies thumping bibles that saw it's passage through. It was starving women and children in the streets because the men were too incapacitated by alcohol to work and maintain a home and family. 

Prohibition obviously was not the cure, but it did bring about changes to how society viewed alcohol and how the industry was regulated. 

But my point here is the first wave of feminism was largely due to the drunkeness and abuses of men to where women needed to be able to fend for themselves in the event their men were unable to provide for them.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Sprinkles, it's been a thing for a long time, but you don't have to choose that for yourself. I don't believe in ultimatums, it only makes people resentful, but that doesn't mean you should ever tolerate a situation you're unhappy with. You seem to have your priorities straight, so talk to your partner about your concerns. 

The thing is though, at 10 months, you guys are still in the love google phase, so unless you two have been having serous conversations on hope, dreams and values, it's a bit fast to be on the marriage track. But then again, some people get married within 6 months of meeting and do great.

Anyway, sorry the bitter butthurt parade made it to your thread.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

My gf and I are coming up on 11 yrs this month. We shack up a couple nights a week on average, and take a few vacations together each year. We both own our own homes, and have no plans to move in together unless it became financially or medically necessary. I have an ex and a child support payment, and not interested in any more of that ever again. She never wanted to marry or have kids. It works great for us.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

OnTheRocks said:


> My gf and I are coming up on 11 yrs this month. We shack up a couple nights a week on average, and take a few vacations together each year. We both own our own homes, and have no plans to move in together unless it became financially or medically necessary. I have an ex and a child support payment, and not interested in any more of that ever again. She never wanted to marry or have kids. It works great for us.


If it's something you've both agreed on and are on the same page, that's fine. It's not ok when both want something totally different and it can't be compromised.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Sprinkles87 said:


> If it's something you've both agreed on and are on the same page, that's fine. It's not ok when both want something totally different and it can't be compromised.


And that is the point when big boy/girl decisions need to be made. It's ok to have incompatible aspirations for the future and separate because of that. It's sad, but it's an adult thing to do.

Compromising our values or ideals comes with tons of risk that can make the relationship harder, even unbearable, later.

It's best, in my opinion, for both people to stick to their convictions and find someone who shares them.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I was straight forward from the start that we're dating with intention (dating to get married) and he knows we can't be dating for 3+ years. He is currently progressing on remodeling his apartments and its spaces so he can have more people renting the rooms and earn more. We're not from the USA and people's salaries are less here.


So he's making steps financially, curious, is it possible that he's saving up for the engagement and wedding?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> So he's making steps financially, curious, is it possible that he's saving up for the engagement and wedding?


And thoughts and comments like this keep women trapped into dead end relationships all the time. Then when it does all fall apart the same people saying these kind of things then say. Well if he didn't marry you after 5 years he wasn't going to marry you.

@Sprinkles87 Sounds like he is making moves without you. Sounds like he's planning his life and you are just there.
I'd do some really plain talk with him. By now you should have a good feeling if he's crazy in love with you or not.

Just remember they can like you well enough and not want you to leave without being appropriately crazy in love with you and want marriage and kids.

I once spent 2 -2.5 years with a guy that was going to marry me after we were done with college. As that date approached I realized this was someone I COULD marry but shouldn't. 

Examine your life in your own mind and judgement. Deep down you know the score. Just let it bubble to the surface. 
It could be yes it could be no but You know way more than we do.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Anastasia6 said:


> And thoughts and comments like this keep women trapped into dead end relationships all the time. Then when it does all fall apart the same people saying these kind of things then say. Well if he didn't marry you after 5 years he wasn't going to marry you.
> 
> @Sprinkles87 Sounds like he is making moves without you. Sounds like he's planning his life and you are just there.
> I'd do some really plain talk with him. By now you should have a good feeling if he's crazy in love with you or not.
> ...


Only offering a different perspective, engagement rings and weddings are pricey you know, same price as a deposit for a new property.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Only offering a different perspective, engagement rings and weddings are pricey you know, same price as a deposit for a new property.


I get it. Not trying to actually say anything about your post. But that's often what men or 'friends' of the man bring up. It gives this false hope that there is some reason the guy hasn't proposed or talked about marriage. Although some are experts about talking about it so they can look like they are in but never follow through.

Poor people get married everyday of the week. Most the women I know want the man more than the expensive stuff. I do know some want a 50k wedding but most just want to be loved and wanted.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I eventually got out of a very long marriage that I shouldn’t have entered into in the first place. Why did I stay? Hope. I kept thinking I would give it just a little longer. Looking back, I should have had a deadline for getting out if things didn’t change. So should you.


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## Tiddytok5 (8 mo ago)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I don't know if it's just me noticing this but more women are nowadays stuck at the ''forever gf'' zone. I've noticed this phenomenon isn't just happening in the USA but in some latin American countries too. Those women are either living together or dating their men for 5+ yrs without an engagement ring and no kids and wondering when is he going to propose. Or the man keeps postponing things, saying what they want to hear, keeping them with false hopes, says he loves her, one day we'll have kids but she's stuck in the gf zone.
> 
> The men get too comfortable, don't progress to marriage and by the time they realized their men won't marry them, they are already 30+ years old. I got out of that zone last year. Even though my current bf and I've been dating for 10 months (we're not living together and waiting till marriage), I really have desires to be proposed and have a child. I don't want to be a forever gf. I don't want to date forever.
> 
> Is this ''forever gf'' zone a real thing nowadays?



It's always been a "thing", since the beginning.

It's fine if both people in a relationship don't want to get married. 

Whatever works for them.

You do whatever you feel is best.

I personally see nothing wrong with it. Alot of people are focused on titles, and obsessed with possible impending assets instead of happiness, bonds, and memories.


If two people are happy being with each other and have been for years, if they choose not to get married..so be it.

It's just a title, it genuinely doesn't define a relationship or the love between them.


If you personally need that "wife/husband/married" title to make you feel more secure in yourself and relationship,



Don't date people who don't want to get married.


Don't stay in relationships after 1 to 5 years without being married.

There shouldn't be any pressuring anyone or constant marriage talks or inserting it constantly into conversations.


If there hasn't been any marriage talk within the timeframe you think is reasonable....


Leave. 



Do whatever works for you.



No one should shame anyone for their choice regarding this.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Timelines should absolutely be discussed and agreed on early, in a general sense. "I think 3 years is about right to get married" "I disagree, 5 feels more comfortable" and then either compromise or part ways.

We'd been dating a few months, can't remember exactly how long, and my husband and I had that talk. He said he thought 5 years was a good amount of time to get to know if a couple is long term compatible. I straight up told him that no way in hell was I going to be a 5 year girlfriend, and that 2 years was my absolute limit. We were married 2 years and 2 months after our first date


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

frenchpaddy said:


> women hold the cookie jar , if you give the man all of what is in the cookie jar why does he need to give you more
> 
> it is like this women are in control no mater what they say it is the woman that has the power, I am talking about adult women. A man will do anything he needs to for sex. Hell, you see some men are willing to pay for an education for a girl if she gives him what he wants it is called sugar daddy. Some men invest more and pay for a house and car for their mistress just to have some cookie on the side,
> 
> Women hold the power but some give it all up too easy you meet a new guy if on the first night you have sex with him and it does not have to be full PIV but you let him put his hand on your privets he is thinking god man this was easy.


I disagree. Women are the gatekeepers of sex. Men are the gatekeepers of relationships.

You can argue that women collectively are giving up sex too easily, but an individual woman has no power to fix the dynamic by controlling her own behavior. You have to compete with the market of comparable men and women.

We are talking about relationships here, not sex, and men have all the power in deciding whether to enter into relationships (especially marriage).


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> 🤷‍♂️
> 
> Thats what the science says about me turning 40 that my kids after that are going to have issues or what not. Genetic abnormalities and all that.
> 
> ...


I disagree. Sure, there is junk science that shows that children by older men tend to have more problems. What is (quite intentionally IMO) not accounted for in those studies is the age of the mother. Men who are 55 having children are more likely to be fathering them with women 35-40 than with women who are 20. So they pretend as if they analyzing the results of old sperm when in fact they are showing the problems of old eggs. You would have zero issues if you had your children with a 20 yo woman.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

Anastasia6 said:


> Poor people get married everyday of the week. Most the women I know want the man more than the expensive stuff. I do know some want a 50k wedding but most just want to be loved and wanted.


Yeah I never cared about the cost of an engagement ring nor an expensive wedding. It can be a cheaper ring and simple wedding but the man fully committing. If he's having issues paying for the wedding then I don't mind helping him too. A man wanting to continue keeping me as a gf would make me feel unloved, unwanted, not trusted as if I was not good enough. Why good enough to just be a gf but not a wife? 
I'll never understand the logic some men (ok not all, some) that claimed she's the love of his life but refuses to marry her. Then clearly she's not the love of your life if he's not willing to sacrifice his freedom for commitment.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

RandomDude said:


> So he's making steps financially, curious, is it possible that he's saving up for the engagement and wedding?


Unlike my ex bf whom my parents (esp mom) hated, they like him and see him as a serious man. They think he might be saving up too. Hopefully but I don't want to assume things fast.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CraigBesuden said:


> I disagree. Sure, there is junk science that shows that children by older men tend to have more problems. What is (quite intentionally IMO) not accounted for in those studies is the age of the mother. Men who are 55 having children are more likely to be fathering them with women 35-40 than with women who are 20. So they pretend as if they analyzing the results of old sperm when in fact they are showing the problems of old eggs. You would have zero issues if you had your children with a 20 yo woman.


********


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

frusdil said:


> Timelines should absolutely be discussed and agreed on early, in a general sense. "I think 3 years is about right to get married" "I disagree, 5 feels more comfortable" and then either compromise or part ways.
> 
> We'd been dating a few months, can't remember exactly how long, and my husband and I had that talk. He said he thought 5 years was a good amount of time to get to know if a couple is long term compatible. I straight up told him that no way in hell was I going to be a 5 year girlfriend, and that 2 years was my absolute limit. We were married 2 years and 2 months after our first date


Good. The earlier things are laid on the table the better. Great to hear you guys got married. Congrats.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

Sprinkles87 said:


> If it's something you've both agreed on and are on the same page, that's fine. It's not ok when both want something totally different and it can't be compromised.


You asked if it's a thing. It is for me and gf. 

If you feel you are being strung along, leave. 

FWIW, I hope my daughter decides to never marry or cohabitate with a sexual partner. Her life will be much easier.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

frusdil said:


> Timelines should absolutely be discussed and agreed on early, in a general sense. "I think 3 years is about right to get married" "I disagree, 5 feels more comfortable" and then either compromise or part ways.
> 
> We'd been dating a few months, can't remember exactly how long, and my husband and I had that talk. He said he thought 5 years was a good amount of time to get to know if a couple is long term compatible. I straight up told him that no way in hell was I going to be a 5 year girlfriend, and that 2 years was my absolute limit. We were married 2 years and 2 months after our first date


I agree. My wife and I agreed to marry 3 months after meeting. We were engaged after 10 months and married after 18 months.

Four years between the first date and the wedding might be reasonable, but not 4 years before he decides whether to marry. What additional information does he need to learn?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I don't want to be a forever gf. I don't want to date forever.


Well instead of waiting, you could propose to your boyfriend.

As for myself I proposed marriage to one woman, which led to a 2 year marriage inclusive of the one year obligatory waiting period of legal separation.

While I've also had two other women propose marriage to me. Of which although I turned one of them down, I've been with the other one for 26 years and 5 months, inclusive of being happily married to her for 23 years and 6 months so far.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I might not be able to have any when I'm 40 or pregnancy might be extremely difficulty by then. You men don't have a limited time to have kids. We do.
> They're not just children. I want to form a family.


Edited


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

CraigBesuden said:


> You have to compete with the market of comparable men and women.


you reduce the value of the product then your shopping in Walmart for a wife 


Sprinkles87 said:


> A man wanting to continue keeping me as a gf would make me feel unloved, unwanted, not trusted as if I was not good enough. Why good enough to just be a gf but not a wife?


if you are fulling everything that a wife does not just sex but everything what benefit is left .

Some men are happy to buy a 911 Others are happy to just drive a 911 once but if you can get a 911 for the price of a vw what will you do . 

without knowing the guy, his background, his up bringing, his mothers are fathers relationship , his maturity, his views on religion, and his feelings and trust in you it is hard for us to put a finger on why he is happy to go 90% with you and not go the extra 10%,

what stops you from doing the asking is your up bringing your history 

I had a aunt that gave 11 years dating a guy only son back in the times when there was never sex before marriage she asked him and he said he was thinking of joining a religious order ,
Long story she twisted him to marry her as no man would at that time would have any thing to do with a woman that was so long dating a woman .

They had 7 children and she did all the work cooked run the house and run the business and he was the gentleman did not work and did nothing around the house not even cut the grass ,
their children looked on her as the slave and he was the one they looked up to , she died and then the family fell apart , he died last year and only 2 of his girls still talked to him


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## so_sweet (10 mo ago)

Some men are marriage-minded, but very generally speaking, if a guy is living with his girlfriend and she's making breakfast, lunch and dinner for him, does his laundry, cleans the house, reminds him to call his mom on mother's day, puts up with his stinky feet AND they have a great sex life, why would he want to change that?

If to him everything is great, perhaps he would think a change--getting married--could only hurt the great arrangement he already has living with his girlfriend?

Personally speaking, my husband let me know fairly early on that he would marry me one day. At the time, I didn't think we would get married (marriage was not on my mind) but I'm very happy he proved me wrong, LOL! 

One last thing, from what I've seen, when a man truly wants to marry a woman, he will propose to her.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

CraigBesuden said:


> I agree. My wife and I agreed to marry 3 months after meeting. We were engaged after 10 months and married after 18 months.
> 
> Four years between the first date and the wedding might be reasonable, but not 4 years before he decides whether to marry. What additional information does he need to learn?


Exactly



so_sweet said:


> One last thing, from what I've seen, when a man truly wants to marry a woman, he will propose to her.


Absolutely, and if marriage is very important to her but not so much to him, if he really loves her, he will marry her.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

Evinrude58 said:


> It is when a woman shows a man she wouldn’t be a good wife. What’s in it for the man nowadays?


Sadly, it's when you act like too much like a wife when dating, that the guys don't take the leap. They figure, why buy the cow when I can get the milk for free sort of a thing. Today, you can't do too much for a guy when dating. No cooking for them, no cleaning for them. It's stupid, but it's where society has gone.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

GC1234 said:


> Sadly, it's when you act like too much like a wife when dating, that the guys don't take the leap. They figure, why buy the cow when I can get the milk for free sort of a thing. Today, you can't do too much for a guy when dating. No cooking for them, no cleaning for them. It's stupid, but it's where society has gone.


Devils advocate for a moment.

The downside of not “playing wife” is that it _should_ take a guy/girl longer to asses potential mate status. You have to watch, listen, wait, meet the family, over and over to see behavior patterns and reactions.

When you live with someone, the truth about who they are comes out much quicker.

The long game is better for marriage-minded folks in my opinion, however, it is a long game.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> Devils advocate for a moment.
> 
> The downside of not “playing wife” is that it _should_ take a guy/girl longer to asses potential mate status. You have to watch, listen, wait, meet the family, over and over to see behavior patterns and reactions.
> 
> ...


I see your point, but I find that people who stay together for a super long time, never last, oddly. I've known of people that have been in 7-10 year relationships, get married, and then are divorced. Not sure what that's about, because by that point, you should know your person well.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

GC1234 said:


> I see your point, but I find that people who stay together for a super long time, never last, oddly. I've known of people that have been in 7-10 year relationships, get married, and then are divorced. Not sure what that's about, because by that point, you should know your person well.


I think if we're not married, even if together for a long time, there's always the "walk away" option when the storms of life come. Being married removes that option, or at least removes the ease of doing it.+

The 7-10 year thing...who knows. 7-year itch maybe.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Sprinkles87 said:


> Sadly my paternal grandfather wasn't a great husband. He used to hit my grandma before dad was born and he had a child from an affair. Then when my dad's 3 siblings (2 sisters and a brother) got older, he couldn't hit her anymroe because it was him against 3 by then. Yes several men were terrible husbands back then. So much for chivalry and fidelity; both thrown down the toilet.


My grandfather was not a kind man either. My grandmother knew what she could say but never questioned him. He ruled the house and everyone that entered.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

GC1234 said:


> I see your point, but I find that people who stay together for a super long time, never last, oddly. I've known of people that have been in 7-10 year relationships, get married, and then are divorced. Not sure what that's about, because by that point, you should know your person well.


In those situations I have wondered if the dating game kept the relationship alive.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> So now this is where Red Pill pundits like Richard Cooper and Rollo Tomassi and even some female Red Pillers like Suzanne Venker are getting their fodder.
> 
> Now we have women in their 30s that spent their 20s drinking and partying and hooking up with Chads and playa’s and bad boys and bikers with tattoos, and road-tripping and partying around the world while obtaining educational degrees and entering into professional careers and having incomes equal to if not surpassing men and generally living the life……
> 
> ...


Makes me wonder what type of women you have been exposed to in order to have this opinion.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

AVR1962 said:


> Makes me wonder what type of women you have been exposed to in order to have this opinion.


Not necessarily my own personal opinion. 

I was referencing the current rhetoric of the red pill community and how many of those pundits speak of women in their 30s who are now anxious to get married and start popping out kids.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

CraigBesuden said:


> The real problem with marriage today isn't that the family courts are biased against men. It's that women initiate 70% of their divorces and women with college degrees initiate 90% of their divorces. Quite often, the divorces occur for financial reasons - either the husband becomes unemployed or the wife gets promoted and makes more money than him - even just a single dollar per year.
> 
> Women today will take vows saying in richer or poor, in sickness and in health. But the real standard appears to be "for richer, for better and while he's in good health, but even then only so long as I am happy." Men have taken notice.
> 
> Men and women no longer need each other. Women have decidedly NOT used this power to avoid being with men who are abusive, as some suggest. Instead, they have taken this power to be with hot guys with bad character and avoid men with good character until they are getting older and desperate to get married. At that point, the men who were pushed aside for a decade are asked to pay full price for the cow after she gave away the milk to the guys she really wanted. Again, men have taken notice.


This might be your experience and I have no doubt this does happen. I think your percentage quotes are a bit inaccurate however. Do you know how many women are left with children to raise and NO child support is paid even with a court order? Do you have a cluse how difficult it is for the state to catch up to a "deadbeat" dad who is running from job to job to avoid child support? Even with women now getting degrees there are plenty of women who are living at an impoverished level. 

I am not trying to take away from OP's post and highjack this thread. When I married my first husband in 1980, we neither one had degrees and we used cardboard boxes for night stands, hoped family would invite us to dinner as we had nothing.....very young but very much in love. He had an affair which I would later find out was one of many, decided to leave but he was very responsible financially. His business had failed and my name was on all the paperwork so I was obligated to thousands of dollars in debt and I knew he would not pay. He had taken a very low paying job just before he filed for divorce, said he wanted to marry the lady he had the last affair with. Court ordered him to pay $50 a month for each of our children (2), a total of $100 a month. He dodged the obligation, left me with all of the bills. It took 7 years for the state to catch him for support. His affair last 3 years, he cheated on her as well. He remarried and destroyed his marriage yet again by cheating. It's not just me either, I know plenty of other women who have been through something similar. Some might marry for money, sure just like men marry to have a beautiful young wife.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

Personal said:


> Well instead of waiting, you could propose to your boyfriend.
> 
> As for myself I proposed marriage to one woman, which led to a 2 year marriage inclusive of the one year obligatory waiting period of legal separation.
> 
> While I've also had two other women propose marriage to me. Of which although I turned one of them down, I've been with the other one for 26 years and 5 months, inclusive of being happily married to her for 23 years and 6 months so far.


Even though I could propose if I wanted to, it just doesn't seem romantic. It takes away the surprise of the man being ready and asking it himself without getting nagged or reminded too much by the woman...but it's him opening his gate. We can set up our timeframe for our goals and be straight forward from the beginning but the proposal is sweet when it's coming from him.
Many women still want marriage and kids so it's nothing new. Her proposing seems more like an act of desperation when the man isn't doing it for whatever reason.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

AVR1962 said:


> This might be your experience and I have no doubt this does happen. I think your percentage quotes are a bit inaccurate however. Do you know how many women are left with children to raise and NO child support is paid even with a court order? Do you have a cluse how difficult it is for the state to catch up to a "deadbeat" dad who is running from job to job to avoid child support? Even with women now getting degrees there are plenty of women who are living at an impoverished level.
> 
> It took 7 years for the state to catch him for support. His affair last 3 years, he cheated on her as well. He remarried and destroyed his marriage yet again by cheating. It's not just me either, I know plenty of other women who have been through something similar. Some might marry for money, sure just like men marry to have a beautiful young wife.


Thank you for sharing your story and sorry to hear what you went through. I'm sure there are still people marrying for the wrong reasons and in the end the children are sadly the ones affected the most.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> I think if we're not married, even if together for a long time, there's always the "walk away" option when the storms of life come. Being married removes that option, or at least removes the ease of doing it.+
> 
> The 7-10 year thing...who knows. 7-year itch maybe.


Indeed. If they ever get into a couple minor arguments in a live-in relationship, they'll always have one foot out the door at any time. There is no real commitment, responsibility, stability nor security there. I fail to understand the logic that we should be happy being in a long-term relationship, live with him, act like a housewife and that as long as there is love that's all that matters. It doesn't change the fact that they're still in just dating status. 
This only works out if both parties either like the arrangement or never plan on getting married.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Sprinkles87 said:


> Indeed. If they ever get into a couple minor arguments in a live-in relationship, they'll always have one foot out the door at any time. There is no real commitment, responsibility, stability nor security there. I fail to understand the logic that we should be happy being in a long-term relationship, live with him, act like a housewife and that as long as there is love that's all that matters. It doesn't change the fact that they're still in just dating status.
> This only works out if both parties either like the arrangement or never plan on getting married.


The hard part is telling people who want to keep the 'easy out' option from the ones who will burn the ships. Action is the only way to tell for sure (like proposal, date, etc).

Which of course, is one reason you're here


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Men aren’t marrying because: 
1) women divorce at the drop of a hat now, and receive cash and prizes for doing so. There’s a huge incentive for a woman with 2 or 3 kids that has a husband that works hard and makes a good living to divorce, especially if she’s a “stay at home mom”. She will get cash and prizes, a free baby sitter half the time, and opportunity to find another man that she deems more successful, more handsome, or more whatever.
2) cheating is probably equal, but a man sees women all around cheating on his friends after many years of marriage and had zero faith anymore. 
3) There is zero need to marry in order to have a sexual partner.

The reason for things is never very complex. There’s few pros and huge cons to get married nowadays.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

Evinrude58 said:


> Men aren’t marrying because:
> 1) women divorce at the drop of a hat now, and receive cash and prizes for doing so. There’s a huge incentive for a woman with 2 or 3 kids that has a husband that works hard and makes a good living to divorce, especially if she’s a “stay at home mom”. She will get cash and prizes, a free baby sitter half the time, and opportunity to find another man that she deems more successful, more handsome, or more whatever.
> 2) cheating is probably equal, but a man sees women all around cheating on his friends after many years of marriage and had zero faith anymore.
> 3) There is zero need to marry in order to have a sexual partner.
> ...


I've been reading about that too and while those reasons are concerning, I still shouldn't be paying the price of other women's actions. I'm an innocent party in all that and actually do want marriage for love, stability and forming a family.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

Evinrude58 said:


> Men aren’t marrying because:
> 1) women divorce at the drop of a hat now, and receive cash and prizes for doing so. There’s a huge incentive for a woman with 2 or 3 kids that has a husband that works hard and makes a good living to divorce, especially if she’s a “stay at home mom”. She will get cash and prizes, a free baby sitter half the time, and opportunity to find another man that she deems more successful, more handsome, or more whatever.


Such a generalizing statement. Some women actually don't divorce at the drop of a hat, and have taken their husband's s*** for years. Notice I said 'some'. I know of women who have tolerated cheating male partners, and sucked it up because they think they have no other options. Am I saying that there aren't women who don't do as you have described? No, there are bit**** that take full advantage.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I've been reading about that too and while those reasons are concerning, I still shouldn't be paying the price of other women's actions. I'm an innocent party in all that and actually do want marriage for love, stability and forming a family.


Be patient, there’s still plenty of men that want that. Sadly, above age 30, they’ve likely been burned before, as have women. Marriage and a person’s solemn promise is not valued in our society anymore.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

I can see all sides of this discussion. I have actually held different perspectives at different times of my life.

When I was young and single, I was raised in an environment with no premarital sex. So my wife and I dated 2 months before getting engaged and got married 5 month after that. At that time and for the next 15ish years I would have been all for the idea of the man leading the the relationship towards marriage.

As I have gotten older and learned of the varied experiences people have in and around marriage, my view of this has changed. At this point, if I was single and dating the only thing I would ever say about marriage is; 'what does the government have to do with our relationship?' If a woman can not adequately answer without an emotional appeal then there is nothing more to discuss.

If she can give a good answer to that questions, then we could discuss "marriage" that does not include the government contract.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Sprinkles87 said:


> Indeed. If they ever get into a couple minor arguments in a live-in relationship, they'll always have one foot out the door at any time. There is no real commitment, responsibility, stability nor security there. I fail to understand the logic that we should be happy being in a long-term relationship, live with him, act like a housewife and that as long as there is love that's all that matters. It doesn't change the fact that they're still in just dating status.
> This only works out if both parties either like the arrangement or never plan on getting married.


That's the logic of people who want what they want, and are trying to change other people's minds to align to suit them. Just remember, you are in control of your own path in life. If you want marriage, take steps that lead there. Don't EVER live with a man before marriage; that seems to enable the ditherers. Don't be afraid to alienate someone for fear if they can't talk about progression to marriage within a reasonable time frame, because that person was probably wasting your time anyway.

The older you get, the harder it will be to marry, as there are more and more divorced men in your age bracket who have been burnt and become bitter in your pool.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Sprinkles87 said:


> Her proposing seems more like an act of desperation when the man isn't doing it for whatever reason.


My wife certainly wasn’t desperate, she was and is a beautiful woman, who didn’t lack male suitors. She was also educated, had a professional career (and still does), was/is bilingual and world traveled. Plus she didn’t have any kids either.

Who before being with me, also had a few previous boyfriends propose marriage to her (which she turned down). At the end of the day, she just thought I was awesome. So she asked me to marry her, just like she asked me out for our first date. Plus according to her, I am the first man she ever asked out, and the only one she hasn’t dumped.

That said if your want to be married and your boyfriend isn’t proposing, and you are like him unwilling to propose. I guess you’re going to have to stay unmarried, until one of you changes their mind, or dumps the other.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Personal said:


> My wife certainly wasn’t desperate, she was and is a beautiful woman, who didn’t lack male suitors. She was also educated, had a professional career (and still does), was/is bilingual and world traveled. Plus she didn’t have any kids either.
> 
> Who before being with me, also had a few previous boyfriends propose marriage to her (which she turned down). At the end of the day, she just thought I was awesome. So she asked me to marry her, just like she asked me out for our first date. Plus according to her, I am the first man she ever asked out, and the only one she hasn’t dumped.
> 
> That said if your want to be married and your boyfriend isn’t proposing, and you are like him unwilling to propose. I guess you’re going to have to stay unmarried, until one of you changes their mind, or dumps the other.


This is a great story!


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Yep OP.... I too proposed to my husband.. I wasn't desperate to get married in general. I had turned down many proposal's prior to meeting my husband. 

I was desperate to marry my husband. I knew I was head over heels and knew what I wanted.

Certainly you don't have to propose, each person has their own personality. But ask yourself. Do you want to be married? Have you expressed this to your bf? Are you waiting for the proposal for true reasons or the fairy tale reasons.

I do see above where you were saying it means he isn't being forced if he proposes. Which I agree with. However a proposal isn't an ultimatum. He can turn you down just as you could if he proposed.

People who give ultimatums may 'win' and get married but that doesn't mean the marriage is going to be good. 

I think open and honest conversations are super important in long term relationships. You've never really answered have you and your bf had the open conversation about marriage? Does he know marriage is important to you? 

Don't drop hints or leave magazines around or mention a friend getting married. Simply have a conversation. Without telling him what's going to happen if he's not looking to get married. Then if he's not into moving forward.... Move on. You get to decide what's important to you and what makes someone compatible with you. People can argue all day long about if you should expect to get married or not but it's obvious you want to be married. If a guy isn't willing to get married then he probably just doesn't care enough. He may have a bizillion excuses but the bottom line he just isn't in love with you enough. You are Ms. right now, not Mrs. Right.

PS. My husband said yes. We married about 1 week later and that was about 29 years ago still married.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Personal said:


> My wife certainly wasn’t desperate, she was and is a beautiful woman, who didn’t lack male suitors. She was also educated, had a professional career (and still does), was/is bilingual and world traveled. Plus she didn’t have any kids either.
> 
> Who before being with me, also had a few previous boyfriends propose marriage to her (which she turned down). At the end of the day, she just thought I was awesome. So she asked me to marry her, just like she asked me out for our first date. Plus according to her, I am the first man she ever asked out, and the only one she hasn’t dumped.
> 
> That said if your want to be married and your boyfriend isn’t proposing, and you are like him unwilling to propose. I guess you’re going to have to stay unmarried, until one of you changes their mind, or dumps the other.


I'll probably be borderline sexist here or something, but I think the traditional "men ask" approach is better.

I like for men to be strong leaders in the marriage. And men should start leading the couple even before marriage, by recognizing where each partner is at in life and acting (with regards to the proposal). Asking for a woman's hand in marriage shows courage and leadership. And if you're smart it will be romantic.

Having said that, there is nothing wrong with women asking at all, and I don't mean to suggest otherwise.
This is just my preference.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Evinrude58 said:


> Men aren’t marrying because:
> 1) women divorce at the drop of a hat now, and receive cash and prizes for doing so. There’s a huge incentive for a woman with 2 or 3 kids that has a husband that works hard and makes a good living to divorce, especially if she’s a “stay at home mom”. She will get cash and prizes, a free baby sitter half the time, and opportunity to find another man that she deems more successful, more handsome, or more whatever.
> 2) cheating is probably equal, but a man sees women all around cheating on his friends after many years of marriage and had zero faith anymore.
> 3) There is zero need to marry in order to have a sexual partner.
> ...


If a man wants to avoid his wife getting "cash and prizes" in a divorce _he should make sure he marries someone who earns as much as he does_. And who works full time throughout the marriage. Then, any "cash and prizes" were earned just as much by her. If he doesn’t do that, and he chooses something else... he has no one to blame but himself. 

Men don't take financial factors into consideration when choosing their wife then complain later in the event of a divorce. 

There is no need to marry to have a sexual partner, but many high quality women aren't going to want to have children with a man who won't get married. And believe it or not there are men who want to have children and a family, not children with some rando woman.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Livvie said:


> If a man wants to avoid his wife getting "cash and prizes" in a divorce _he should make sure he marries someone who earns as much as he does_. And who works full time throughout the marriage. Then, any "cash and prizes" were earned just as much by her. If he doesn’t do that, and he chooses something else... he has no one to blame but himself.
> 
> Men don't take financial factors into consideration when choosing their wife then complain later in the event of a divorce.
> 
> There is no need to marry to have a sexual partner, but many high quality women aren't going to want to have children with a man who won't get married. And believe it or not there are men who want to have children and a family, not children with some rando woman.


I am doing my best to instruct my son to marry a woman that makes what he does. But it will be difficult because he is on track to make over 200k a year. I’m worried he will be victimized.

I don’t disagree sith your comments. It’s more difficult than you describe. Love doesn’t necessarily follow wise choices. Hell, I had a rich woman say yea to marrying me once. She did wise up in the nick of time.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Evinrude58 said:


> I am doing my best to instruct my son to marry a woman that makes what he does. But it will be difficult because he is on track to make over 200k a year. I’m worried he will be victimized.
> 
> I don’t disagree sith your comments. It’s more difficult than you describe. Love doesn’t necessarily follow wise choices. Hell, I had a rich woman say yea to marrying me once. She did wise up in the nick of time.


If that woman makes even a touch more than him (e.g., $280,000 versus his $250,000), there is a good chance of mistreatment, adultery and divorce.

I would suggest a prenup with no alimony, and he should find a woman who will make a lot of money but make less than him, such as a nurse or nurse practitioner.

Also, if his financial plans don’t work out for some reason, don’t expect “for richer or poorer” to be honored.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> If a man wants to avoid his wife getting "cash and prizes" in a divorce _he should make sure he marries someone who earns as much as he does_. And who works full time throughout the marriage. Then, any "cash and prizes" were earned just as much by her. If he doesn’t do that, and he chooses something else... he has no one to blame but himself.
> 
> Men don't take financial factors into consideration when choosing their wife then complain later in the event of a divorce.


I couldn’t agree more. 

Lots of men are still ok with supporting a woman if she is purdy, smells nice and touches their pee pee. 

But what they haven’t quite caught on to yet after these thousands of years is if they are fully supporting and providing for her in marriage, they will be supporting her in divorce as well.

If there is one thing I believe I did right in this world, it was requiring my wife to finish her education and get her professional credentialing as a condition of getting married and having kids. 

As we have almost identical incomes and we each maintain our own financial accounts, credit accounts, 401K etc, there is nothing stopping either of us from walking out the door any time we feel like it. 

I believe that historically men have believed that if they support the woman financially and she is dependent on him, that this will make her less likely to leave him. 

While there is some truth to that and many women remain with men they despise or that treat them very badly, I do not think it provides any where near the security men think it does. 

Women can still leave a man just as readily if he supports her - he will just pay for her divorce out of his own pocket and then pay her spousal and child support while she moves in with the other man. 

I also believe that people with similar incomes education levels levels are statistically less likely to split. I believe the post above who stated women with college degrees are more likely to divorce- I think the actual statistics in that are the opposite and that they are statistically LESS likely to.

It’s just my own hunch but I believe over time, men who fully support women financially will eventually be more inclined to mistreat, neglect and even abuse them. 

I think men and women will both treat each other with more respect and dignity when each have the same socioeconomic status and either could walk out the door at any moment.

I know @Diana7 and other traditionalists will disagree with that notion, but I believe it to be true nonetheless. 

When somebody has a lot of power over some else, that very frequently becomes an abuse of that power. 

Similar economic status and opportunity levels the playing field and fosters more collaborative and respectful behavior. 

The chances of divorce become less, and the cost to each person becomes lessened.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CraigBesuden said:


> If that woman makes even a touch more than him (e.g., $280,000 versus his $250,000), there is a good chance of mistreatment, adultery and divorce.
> 
> I would suggest a prenup with no alimony, and he should find a woman who will make a lot of money but make less than him, such as a nurse or nurse practitioner.
> 
> Also, if his financial plans don’t work out for some reason, don’t expect “for richer or poorer” to be honored.


I'd advise no. 

What if they have 2 children and she has a stroke during the birth of the second child and is permanently injured. Then he cheats on her and wants a divorce. No spousal support? You never know what's going to happen.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CraigBesuden said:


> If that woman makes even a touch more than him (e.g., $280,000 versus his $250,000), there is a good chance of mistreatment, adultery and divorce.
> 
> I would suggest a prenup with no alimony, and he should find a woman who will make a lot of money but make less than him, such as a nurse or nurse practitioner.
> 
> Also, if his financial plans don’t work out for some reason, don’t expect “for richer or poorer” to be honored.


But if she is making more than him, wouldn’t SHE be the one paying alimony??


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> But if she is making more than him, wouldn’t SHE be the one paying alimony??


But realistically, the chances of a couple with those incomes paying spousal support at all is probably very slim unless one didn’t even try to get a decent lawyer. 

The purpose of spousal support in current times is to keep the STAHP off of public support until they can renter the work force and support themselves.

Someone making that kind of income will not need public support. 

In cases where two high income earners quibble over spousal support, it’s often just a negotiation point to shut the other up and get it over with.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yep OP.... I too proposed to my husband.. I wasn't desperate to get married in general. I had turned down many proposal's prior to meeting my husband.
> 
> I was desperate to marry my husband. I knew I was head over heels and knew what I wanted.


That's very brave of you. I'm traditional in that area, where I just find it romantic and courageous when a man proposes; he's leading. 


Anastasia6 said:


> Certainly you don't have to propose, each person has their own personality. But ask yourself. Do you want to be married? Have you expressed this to your bf? Are you waiting for the proposal for true reasons or the fairy tale reasons.
> 
> I think open and honest conversations are super important in long term relationships. You've never really answered have you and your bf had the open conversation about marriage? Does he know marriage is important to you?


He knows very well we're dating to get married and that I want kids in a marriage. This has been stated early on and last month too. Last month, we were actually looking at prices about how much do wedding preparations and rings cost, to give us an idea. We don't plan on it being too fancy nor expensive. Then he said we'll talk about this more next month as soon he finishes with the apartments and getting new renters to move in. He's keeping me posted about the update. Today he was waiting for the technician to install the bars and curtains but hasn't shown up. People are usually unpunctual in my country.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

At one point he did informed he was progressing with the apartments as his main priority and trying to get things moving faster. I believe that's a good sign. Hopefully things progress.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Livvie said:


> *If a man wants to avoid his wife getting "cash and prizes" in a divorce he should make sure he marries someone who earns as much as he does. And who works full time throughout the marriage. Then, any "cash and prizes" were earned just as much by her. If he doesn’t do that, and he chooses something else... he has no one to blame but himself.*
> 
> Men don't take financial factors into consideration when choosing their wife then complain later in the event of a divorce.
> 
> There is no need to marry to have a sexual partner, but many high quality women aren't going to want to have children with a man who won't get married. And believe it or not there are men who want to have children and a family, not children with some rando woman.



There is no guarantees in this game...

My ex SIL made a lot more than my brother did when they married...Then when kids came along, she left her high paying job, so she can raise the kids as SAHM...My brother was OK with it for a little while, but then she just flat out decided that she liked that lifestyle more than business trips, board meetings, and taking the train to the city... Fast forward, they are divorced(by her choice) and he's paying a mountain of alimony and has to until he is 64 years old...

No one can force a spouse to go back to work if they didn't want to and even though my brother didn't like to have to carry all that load, he was looking forward to getting the kids out of college and enjoying the rest of his adult life...Nope...

I've seen the most hardened career women lose all that drive the minute that kid is in their arms...And the thought of daycare and all that goes along with it becomes unacceptable...


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Sprinkles87 said:


> At one point he did informed he was progressing with the apartments as his main priority and trying to get things moving faster. I believe that's a good sign. Hopefully things progress.


Well hopefully things do progress. You've had the open and honest conversation. So my next step is set an internal deadline. If he doesn't propose by...... then you make your move. If you feel strongly about not proposing then your next move at that point would be to leave. You'll know when the apartments are done and rented. I'd recommend since you've talked last month if at that point there isn't a definitive proposal not talk of one in the future then you really need to decide if you want to be a forever girlfriend. It sounds like he's planning but some guys are just really good about stretching it out so they don't have to do anything about it. 

Have you two done anything to combine finances? Do you have any stake in these apartments? And if not why not? 
Other than words, how is your relationship progressing?

Personally I have a general rule of thumb.... Unless you are really really young like 17...If a guy doesn't know and propose by 2 years then move on. I've never seen these long dragged out things do that well. Usually 1 person is dragging their feet for a reason like they just aren't enough in love. They eventually 'settle' but are unhappy and divorce then ensues because marriage doesn't 'fix' issues like not being in love.

We see posts here quite a bit.... married 2 years together 7 or married 6 months together 21 years. And they are here because they are having breakup issues.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Evinrude58 said:


> Men aren’t marrying because:
> 1) women divorce at the drop of a hat now, and receive cash and prizes for doing so.


I agree.



> There’s a huge incentive for a woman with 2 or 3 kids that has a husband that works hard and makes a good living to divorce, especially if she’s a “stay at home mom.” She will get cash and prizes, a free baby sitter half the time, and opportunity to find another man that she deems more successful, more handsome, or more whatever.


I disagree. Everybody loses. The SAHM with a husband making $300,000 isn’t going from $0 per year up to $50,000 [alimony plus child support]. Rather, she is going from $300,000 down to $50,000. Huge downsizing. The SAHM and SAHD make for the longest, nastiest divorces.

However, if men and women believe that women are incentivized to divorce, that can deter marriage.



> The reason for things is never very complex. There’s few pros and huge cons to get married nowadays.


The only reason to get married is for children, IMO.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CraigBesuden said:


> I disagree. Everybody loses. The SAHM with a husband making $300,000 isn’t going from $0 per year up to $50,000 [alimony plus child support]. Rather, she is going from $300,000 down to $50,000. Huge downsizing. The SAHM and SAHD make for the longest, nastiest divorces.


I don't know what the actual dollar figures would be in spousal and child support (my guess is more than 50K but that would depend on many factors)

But assuming your figures are correct, you are leaving out a whole lot of other factors that go into the calculus. 

For starters she is also likely walking away with roughly 50% of the marital assets which could include half the equity of the house, at least one car, half the funds in any joint accounts and investements, half the 401k for which he was the sole contributor and probably most of the household furnishings and she and the kids would also likely continued to be carried on his insurance and future medical expenses for which he will be continuing to pay. 

And if he built a business during the course of their marriage, it is not unusual for the exwife to get a stake in the business upon divorce as well. 

AND it's rare that she would not be soon moving in with some other man and even if that man had a higher income and a bigger house and even more cars and household furnishings, as long as she does not actually remarry, she would continue to receive that division of the marital assets as well as the child and spousal support even though she was now being provisioned by another man. 

So if you are going to say that both lose, you need to say that some lose more than others while some come out way ahead out of the deal.

If she came into the marriage as a 20something hairdresser or receptionist with no college degree or professional credentialing and then did not work outside the home for the duration of the marriage, I'd say she did quite well for herself.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

An interesting stat that Richard Cooper frequently mentions is that with the possible exception of Oprah Winfrey, almost every unmarried female with assets totalling over a billion dollars has done so through divorce or inheritance from a deceased billionaire husband. 

If you want to say that these women went from 300 acre estates and 100,000 square foot mansions and house and garden staffs of 20, to 100 acre estates, 65,000 sq ft mansions and staffs of 10 or less, I guess you could say that they have had a decline in their lifestyle. 

But when you consider that many of them came into the marriage with nothing but firm butts, perky boobies and nice hair and nails, I'd say they made a pretty good living off of divorce.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> An interesting stat that Richard Cooper frequently mentions is that with the possible exception of Oprah Winfrey, almost every unmarried female with assets totalling over a billion dollars has done so through divorce or inheritance from a deceased billionaire husband.
> 
> If you want to say that these women went from 300 acre estates and 100,000 square foot mansions and house and garden staffs of 20, to 100 acre estates, 65,000 sq ft mansions and staffs of 10 or less, I guess you could say that they have had a decline in their lifestyle.
> 
> But when you consider that many of them came into the marriage with nothing but firm butts, perky boobies and nice hair and nails, I'd say they made a pretty good living off of divorce.


Then the man shouldn't have been so easily led by the firm butts, perky boobies and nice hair and nails and he should have looked for a high earner, instead.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Then the man shouldn't have been so easily led by the firm butts, perky boobies and nice hair and nails and he should have looked for a high earner, instead.


Nah that's what he wanted out of the deal. Those guys have teams of lawyers and accountants and financial advisors, they knew the score. 

I'm just an average Joe Six Pack and if I know that if a SAHM splits, she's gonna take half the assets and monthly support checks with her, then these financial gurus and barons of industry should know that as well. They knew the score. The T&A was worth it to them. after all, a lot of these guys were not the star quarterback if you know what I mean. 

And if they didn't know that and if they didn't listen to their lawyers and accountants and advisors, then that is on them. No tears here.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> I'll probably be borderline sexist here or something, but I think the traditional "men ask" approach is better.


I don't see anything wrong with you thinking that it's better for men to ask.



> I like for men to be strong leaders in the marriage. And men should start leading the couple even before marriage, by recognizing where each partner is at in life and acting (with regards to the proposal). Asking for a woman's hand in marriage shows courage and leadership. And if you're smart it will be romantic.


That said I don't think it requires much if any courage at all, to ask for anyones hand in marriage. Nor do I believe it's a demonstration of much if any leadership either.

Let's not forget TAM has been filled with lots of male members, who hold all sorts of asinine views on being the man and not wanting to be disrespected etc, yet they have had women walk all over them, especially the ones they married. Not forgetting they also often end up in sexless marriages as well.

But really, asking a chic to marry, shows courage and leadership????!!! C'mon, pull the other one.



> Having said that, there is nothing wrong with women asking at all, and I don't mean to suggest otherwise.
> This is just my preference.


Well one thing for sure I don't think it's a bad thing that the above is your preference.

Although I think you're probably kidding yourself, that it shows courage and leadership to go there.

As for myself, I don't have a preference either way, having got both T-shirts. After my proposal of marriage, for my first instance of being married. While having been proposed to, in my second instance of being married.



Sprinkles87 said:


> That's very brave of you. I'm traditional in that area, where I just find it romantic and courageous when a man proposes; he's leading.


Okay, that's fair enough. That said, given that you believe asking someone to marry is leading and courageous. Why do you have the bar on what courage and leadership is, set so incredibly low?


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Personal said:


> I don't see anything wrong with you thinking that it's better for men to ask.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


‘Courage‘ because you take an emotional risk to ask for a woman’s hand in marriage. If she says no, you’ve read the situation wrong and your life may change in a moment.

‘Leadership’ because you are stepping out ahead of her, setting the direction, and asking to formally take the relationship to another level, joined as a couple.

Granted it’s not leadership or courage at the same level as storming Normandy Beach, but on a relationship level, it’s not nothing. And it indicates his ability (or at least desire) to lead the couple.

In this OP’s case, those attributes might be diminished a bit since she has made clear her desire. There would be little risk and little leadership here. But it’s better than the woman doing it in my opinion.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I also believe that women should let the man propose and if he does not, then that is the answer. 

The reason I believe this way is because men are very go-with-the-flow when it comes to women and relationships. If there is a woman and sex involved, men are apt to frequently just go along with it as long as there is poontang involved at the end of the day and men will just coast along on autopilot if their tanks are getting drained. 

If a woman says, "do ya wanna go with me and my yorkie to Puppypalooza this weekend? Man = "OK."

"Do ya wanna go to my Aunt Shirley's this weekend and see her new alpaca?" Man = "OK."

"Hey do ya wanna get married , put down a 30 year mortgage and plant a couple babies in me? That involves sex y'know." Man - "OK."

2 years, 2 cars, 1 house and 1 kid later, the guy is now thinking what the hell did I get myself into??? 

The reason 10,000 years of tradition has required men to make out a life plan, ask her daddy for her hand in marriage, shell out hard earned money for a ring, pick out a place to live, get down on one knee and propose, is because that shows that he has given it some thought, considered the pros and cons. Decided that was in his best interest and has done the work and taken the initiative of his own free will rather than just being lead around by his dck and sleepwalking through life by following some chick that was purdy and was touching his pee pee.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> Granted it’s not leadership or courage at the same level as storming Normandy Beach, but on a relationship level, it’s not nothing. And it indicates his ability to lead the couple.


Well one of my grandfathers stormed Juno Beach as a Private at Normandy on D-Day 6 June 1944. Yet according to him in reciting his experiences to me, there was certainly no leadership on his part during that day.

That said I still think what you're selling, sounds piss weak to me, 'cause it's an extremely limited and pretty artificial measure for what you claim.

At the end of the day though, if people have nothing else. I can see why they might draw some comfort, in token demonstrations, in the absence of having real substance in such things.

But hey I didn't have to rely on marriage proposals for my then girlfriend/now wife to see I was a capable leader (like my wife is for real as opposed to in token measure). Since I was a former regular army professional soldier, then army reserve infantry platoon sergeant by the time I was 26. Who was going through the selection process, to become an intelligence professional at the time, which led to my ending up having a very interesting real world career for five years.

Not forgetting, that I rendered first aid to her (while she bled all over me) and to two other casualties who were critically injured), while managing the scene until police and ambulance services finally arrived. In what was a horrendous multi casualty incident. which saw her, and two others including myself nearly killed. In the absence of modern medicine my wife may not have survived and the other two wouldn't have survived. I just got lucky in that I was untouched physically as the threat swept past me a fingertips width away, in what felt like slow motion.

Plus all the other things I had behind me, and as it has turned out subsequently, that were in front of me in life as well.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> I also believe that women should let the man propose and if he does not, then that is the answer.


How many times have you been proposed to? Since what you're saying is not how it works.

Of which, I've been proposed to on two occasions. In the first instance the answer was no and I told her no, so she got the answer. While in the second instance I said yes to my now wife, so she got the answer as well.



> The reason I believe this way is because men are very go-with-the-flow when it comes to women and relationships. If there is a woman and sex involved, men are apt to frequently just go along with it as long as there is poontang involved at the end of the day and men will just coast along on autopilot if their tanks are getting drained.
> 
> If a woman says, "do ya wanna go with me and my yorkie to Puppypalooza this weekend? Man = "OK."
> 
> ...


Jeeez. Speak for yourself!

I'm glad my wife asked me to marry her, 'cause I was happy to marry her and am happy being married to her.

Yet I still do what I choose to do, and have always done so. Plus I don't blindly go along to get along, since I have a backbone.

On the other hand some people simply get run over, including many men who propose marriage, because they can't be bothered not getting run over. Which is hardly worth much if any sympathy, when they do it themselves. Since letting oneself get run over, because they can't be bothered getting out of the way or taking a different path, is self harm writ large.

Anyway.

If a woman says, "do ya wanna go with me and my yorkie to Puppypalooza this weekend? Me = "**** off!"

"Do ya wanna go to my Aunt Shirley's this weekend and see her new alpaca?" Me = "Nope."

"Hey do ya wanna get married , put down a 30 year mortgage and plant a couple babies in me? That involves sex y'know." Me - "Well der, it means sex. That said sure, but only 'cause I really grok you, love you, have lots of fun with you, and find that you're an awesome sexual partner. Plus only if you can and will meet my other wants and criteria, and then only if I also want to marry you, otherwise nope I don't want to marry you.



> The reason 10,000 years of tradition has required men to make out a life plan, ask her daddy for her hand in marriage, shell out hard earned money for a ring, pick out a place to live, get down on one knee and propose, is because that shows that he has given it some thought, considered the pros and cons. Decided that was in his best interest and has done the work and taken the initiative of his own free will rather than just being lead around by his dck and sleepwalking through life by following some chick that was purdy and was touching his pee pee.


So if women can't do the asking, since that's the what men are supposed to do. Does that mean that women can't show they have given it some thought, don't have any initiative and are being led around by their vagina's?

At the end of the day though, it's a fools errand to believe that a man asking a woman to marry them, shows that a man isn't sleepwalking into a marriage being led around be his pee pee.

Which leads to the question. Why is your bar also set so low, on what shows a man isn't sleepwalking in a relationship?


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Personal said:


> Well one of my grandfathers stormed Juno Beach as a Private at Normandy on D-Day 6 June 1944. Yet according to him in reciting his experiences to me, there was certainly no leadership on his part during that day.
> 
> That said I still think what you're selling, sounds piss weak to me, 'cause it's an extremely limited and pretty artificial measure for what you claim.
> 
> ...


There’s nothing wrong with women proposing and it doesn’t nessecarily say anything about the man if she does.

For some men, speaking up about relationship topics does not come easy or natural to them. So something like a marriage proposal is scary indeed. For others just making that commitment in the first place can be a huge mental and emotional hurdle, not to mention the risk. You can scoff at that because you‘ve done some stuff but it doesn’t change the guts it takes to overcome these things, and how it impacts the woman when he does take that step.



Personal said:


> cause it's an extremely limited and pretty artificial measure for what you claim.


Well, yea, courage and leadership in the context of a relationship. Which is what OP wants. It doesn’t mean he would jump in front of a bullet to save a stranger or sign up for the Secret Service.



Personal said:


> At the end of the day though, if people have nothing else. I can see why they might draw some comfort, in token demonstrations, in the absence of having real substance in such things


That ^^^ was unnecessary. What people find meaningful and important is exactly that. Meaningful and important to them. Even token demonstrations can be super-important in relationships, not everything we do is a grand sky-writing effort but it is all important. The wife of a firefighter who goes home and gives his wife a peck on the cheek and says ILY might find more relationship-value in that “token” effort than the hundreds of lives he’s saved.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> How many times have you been proposed to? Since what you're saying is not how it works.
> 
> Of which, I've been proposed to on two occasions. In the first instance the answer was no and I told her no, so she got the answer. While in the second instance I said yes to my now wife, so she got the answer as well.
> 
> ...



Sure there are going to be exceptions and the world won’t end and no puppies will be harmed if a woman proposes. 

But on a global scale I think the world will be better off in the aggregate if men do the proposing. 

Too many men are sleepwalking sex zombies that can be lead down a path they do not actually want or are prepared to deal with. 

That is the fault of the individual men of course. They should be more mindful. 

But it is what it is and since women are the ones that are ultimately going to be the ones carrying and raising the offspring, it is ultimately going to be in their best interests to see for themselves that he has given it thought and planning and is stepping up to the plate on his own initiative.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> For some men, speaking up about relationship topics does not come easy or natural to them. So something like a marriage proposal is scary indeed. For others just making that commitment in the first place can be a huge mental and emotional hurdle, not to mention the risk. You can scoff at that because you‘ve done some stuff but it doesn’t change the guts it takes to overcome these things, and how it impacts the woman when he does take that step.
> 
> 
> Well, yea, courage and leadership in the context of a relationship. Which is what OP wants.


Yes to the above.

From a woman’s point of view, do you want a partner that makes up his own mind, plots his own course, has the giblets to propose that course and the relationship skills to see it through?

Or do you want the guy that bumbles along with whatever whacky idea that comes out of your mouth as long as there are some num-nums in for him at the end of the day?

Will a guy that has no foresight and planning of his own be able to navigate through an adult world of family planning, credit ratings, child rearing, 30-year mortgages, retirement planning, aging parents, declining health etc etc?

If a man is “afraid” to step up to the plate and make proposals or talk to her daddy about their future, how will he stand up when their 5 year old is diagnosed with leukemia? 

Will a man who is unable or unwilling to discuss relationship topics be able to address the inevitable relationship issues that occur when the honeymoon/NRE fades and the fun of Saturday dates to the dance clubs turns in to taking care of puking babies on Saturday nights? Will someone unable to talk about relationship topics be able to adequately manage when an ex turns up on social media and wants to meet for coffee to “catch up?”

These are the things and this is the calculus that goes through women’s minds as she is evaluating a man’s fitness as a partner. 

If she leads him down the path to marriage and family and he just bumbles along because she’s sucking his dck at the moment, how is he going to perform 5. 10 years down the road when his job gets downsized and they’re health insurance expires in 60 days, they’re late on the mortgage payment and the 5 year old has just been diagnosed????

Our grandmothers had a Show-Me-The-Money! attitude and wanted to see a man’s mettle upfront first before marrying him. 

Many if not most males walking the planet at any given time are drones and sleepwalkers and are fodder for the cannons and sacrificial lambs for the tigers to eat first and are ill prepared to maintain a family. 

About the only way to for a young female to tell if he is a drone or a leader is if he steps up to the plate with a plan and a proposal and makes it happen.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In her syndicated radio talk show back in the day, Dr Laura Schlesinger used to use birds as the example that human females should follow. 

The boy bird would flutter around and do his strut until he had caught the girl bird’s eye and was watching him if she thought he was strong and vigorous. 

Then he would start gathering up twigs and leaves and build a nest. 

He would invite her into the nest and if she thought it was strong and sturdy and safe enough, only then would she lift up her tail feathers and be his mate and have a clutch of chicks with him.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Now, I am going to back up a step. 

What I’ve been talking about above is old world order where people married young and frequently moved out of the parent’s house and into their new home with their young spouse. 

People are delaying marriage and child rearing longer today which in general I think is a good thing. 

Today their are men in their 30s that have developed themselves professionally and financially as well as physically and mentally and have constructed and feathered their nest. 

Females who have matured and have wisened up will see that and those with their own initiative and are proactive will start making the proposals. 

I do think as a trend we will start seeing growing numbers of women making the marriage proposals because after a certain age, the numbers of males that are sober, mentally and physically strong and healthy and that are financially secure and independent and that are not video game playing, porn spanking, mom’s basement dwelling juveniles are in short supply. 

Do I think it’s the ideal order of nature?? No, not really. 

But again it is what it is. There’s few quality, high value, single, adult men in the world.

The marriage-minded women are going to be gunning for them.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Now, I am going to back up a step.
> 
> What I’ve been talking about above is old world order where people married young and frequently moved out of the parent’s house and into their new home with their young spouse.
> 
> ...


Completely agree. Times they are a changing.

Mixing up the strengths/weaknesses of the sexes is not the best gameplan according to the BR handbook for perfect living, but my book only applies to me anyway.

And I say this (mixing things up) not to disparage women; more power to you in all avenues.
Rather I say that as an FU to all the men who have no idea how to treat them properly and with proper respect.


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## so_sweet (10 mo ago)

First, everyone is different and what works for one person may not work for another and vice versa. To each their own.

I could never have proposed to my husband! The thought never crossed my mind but thinking about it now just feels like it would have been weird. When I was single, I was also not the type to ask a guy out on a date.

Also, I don't think my husband would have been very happy if I did propose to him, he probably would have thought I took that away from him.

If I did want to propose to him, how would I have even done it? Get down on one knee, give him a ring and ask him to marry me? Honestly, I think my husband would have burst out laughing if I did that!

Again, to each their own.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

so_sweet said:


> First, everyone is different and what works for one person may not work for another and vice versa. To each their own.
> 
> I could never have proposed to my husband! The thought never crossed my mind but thinking about it now just feels like it would have been weird. When I was single, I was also not the type to ask a guy out on a date.
> 
> ...


Did you wait 5 years or more for a proposal?


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## so_sweet (10 mo ago)

Anastasia6 said:


> Did you wait 5 years or more for a proposal?


I did not wait five years or more for a proposal.

Everyone is different, people have different preferences, people have different circumstances...etc., which is why I said this in my post:


so_sweet said:


> First, everyone is different and what works for one person may not work for another and vice versa. To each their own.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

so_sweet said:


> I did not wait five years or more for a proposal.
> 
> Everyone is different, people have different preferences, people have different circumstances...etc., which is why I said this in my post:


I agree everyone is different trying to put it into perspective for the OP. This thread has degenerated into generic talk that doesn't apply to OP. She's here because she's tired of waiting.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

so_sweet said:


> I did not wait five years or more for a proposal.


Would you have (waited)? Or was there a kind of sense of a time limit in your mind?

I was given an ultimatum once in a previous thing. She had a young daughter and had to look out for D's best interest and I never blamed her for that. The ultimatum came after ~18mo of cohabitating.


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## so_sweet (10 mo ago)

.


BeyondRepair007 said:


> Would you have (waited)? Or was there a kind of sense of a time limit in your mind?
> 
> I was given an ultimatum once in a previous thing. She had a young daughter and had to look out for D's best interest and I never blamed her for that. The ultimatum came after ~18mo of cohabitating.


Were you surprised at the ultimatum after 18 months? Did you know she wanted marriage or did it come as a surprise?

I was a divorced, young single mother and doing well when I met hubby. Hubby let me know fairly early on that he wanted to marry me one day. He also said "I love you" first and I didn't say it back, not for awhile.

At the time, I didn't want to ever get married again. I think you're familiar with the story of my first marriage, so you may be able to guess why I didn't want to get married again.

Hubby stuck around, he showed me a lot of love, kindness and respect and I eventually fell head over heels in love with him. I'm not a religious person, but sometimes I think that God must have put this man, my hubby, in my life. I firmly believe that if not for my husband, I would not be married to anyone right now.

I'm not sure if that answered your question, lol. Marriage wasn't on my mind, so it's hard to say if I would have waited and for how long.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

so_sweet said:


> .
> 
> Were you surprised at the ultimatum after 18 months? Did you know she wanted marriage or did it come as a surprise?
> 
> ...


I was surprised at the ultimatum. But only because I was young and dumb and didn't know how to listen to her. She had been 'telling' me for weeks or maybe months. I suspect OP has been telling her man too. I wouldn't be surprised to hear an ultimatum is in his future.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I have the problem of:

I have no idea if a woman would stay happy with me at my age. I fish, hunt, do projects. I don’t like to entertain someone.

I almost have my kids raised grown when I retire in 4 years, I don’t want to raise someone else’s.

I don’t want to deal with all the drama of learning to live with someone again.

I don’t really see a positive to getting legally married again. I would like to have a long term partner to live with. But I don’t really want the legal aspect of it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> I have the problem of:
> 
> I have no idea if a woman would stay happy with me at my age. I fish, hunt, do projects. I don’t like to entertain someone.
> 
> ...


Same.

I would want to find love again, but not sure I’d even want to cohabitate. 

If not raising kids together (which I spend a weeekend with an ice pack on my nuts to make sure I wouldn’t) I’m not sure there is really any advantage other than sharing rent and utility costs to living together at this stage.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I think ultimatums are valid as long as they are sincere. 

The term ultimatum has taken on kind of a perjorative tone in recent years and people act like they are a bad thing. 

But another term for ultimatum is a boundary with upfront disclosure. 

If someone is not willing to date beyond a certain time, I see no reason to not disclose that.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I think ultimatums are valid as long as they are sincere.
> 
> The term ultimatum has taken on kind of a perjorative tone in recent years and people act like they are a bad thing.
> 
> ...


I agree. "Ultimatum" gets a bad rap and for some people (my younger self included) it invokes a fight reflex.

But the truth is that it's honest. Brutally honest maybe, but honest.


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I don't know if it's just me noticing this but more women are nowadays stuck at the ''forever gf'' zone. I've noticed this phenomenon isn't just happening in the USA but in some latin American countries too. Those women are either living together or dating their men for 5+ yrs without an engagement ring and no kids and wondering when is he going to propose. Or the man keeps postponing things, saying what they want to hear, keeping them with false hopes, says he loves her, one day we'll have kids but she's stuck in the gf zone.
> 
> The men get too comfortable, don't progress to marriage and by the time they realized their men won't marry them, they are already 30+ years old. I got out of that zone last year. Even though my current bf and I've been dating for 10 months (we're not living together and waiting till marriage), I really have desires to be proposed and have a child. I don't want to be a forever gf. I don't want to date forever.
> 
> Is this ''forever gf'' zone a real thing nowadays?


Why should any man get married when 70% of divorces are initiated by the wife?


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

BruceBanner said:


> Why should any man get married when 70% of divorces are initiated by the wife?


Why should I get blamed for what other women do? Why should I be happy to just be a forever gf? Why can't I go for my goals, which is getting married and have a child; raised a child in a marriage?


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Sprinkles87 said:


> Why should I get blamed for what other women do? Why should I be happy to just be a forever gf? Why can't I go for my goals, which is getting married and have a child; raised a child in a marriage?


Just because something is trending doesn't mean you have to participate in it. You may have to tweak your goals or your approach,but at the end if the day it's your life and your decisions will guide your fate


Never put your destiny in someone else's hands..


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

Men are foolish to not pay attention to likely outcomes. I wish I would've.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

OnTheRocks said:


> Men are foolish to not pay attention to likely outcomes. I wish I would've.


It’s a likely outcome that I won’t be a movie star no matter how much I try. Should I not try?

Its a likely outcome that a young person will not find their life long partner in the first person they love. Should they not love?

The world is full of people trying to beat the odds. And with good reason… when its successful, it’s amazing. There’s value in the attempt and fear of failure should not control your life. So take the steps in pursuit of your dream even if it’s against the odds, and then heal if it goes wrong.

Pay attention to reality, yes. But let it inform your steps forward, rather then deter you from taking them.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

My view on marriage proposals:

You should already have discussions ahead of time. Shop for engagement rings together, etc. It’s just a formality and ritual. The question should only be formally asked if you already know what the answer will be. The man should do the formal proposal, but the woman can be the first one to bring it up informally if she wants.


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

OnTheRocks said:


> Men are foolish to not pay attention to likely outcomes. I wish I would've.


Did something happen? I'm curious. What likely outcome do you wish you would've payed more attention to?



BeyondRepair007 said:


> It’s a likely outcome that I won’t be a movie star no matter how much I try. Should I not try?
> 
> Its a likely outcome that a young person will not find their life long partner in the first person they love. Should they not love?
> 
> ...


I'd rather not take unnecessary risks. I firmly believe that marriage is largely a losing game for men.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Sprinkles87 said:


> Why should I get blamed for what other women do? Why should I be happy to just be a forever gf? Why can't I go for my goals, which is getting married and have a child; raised a child in a marriage?


you won’t be blamed by a man who values you properly.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

BruceBanner said:


> I firmly believe that marriage is largely a losing game for men.


The statistics are clear. Women are now filing 80% of divorces (90% for marriages with college-educated women.) Lesbian marriages have the highest divorce rates.

A significant minority of women look at marriage not as a lifetime commitment but as “for richer, for better, and in health — but only so long as I am happy.” Men, by contrast, tend to take the vows seriously. They believe that their wives want a marriage rather than a wedding, and that their wives take the vows seriously as well.

Society says that men lack emotional intelligence because they don’t realize that their wives are unhappy and about to divorce. In reality, what we are talking about is one party to a contract secretly planning to betray their partner and breach the contract. (For any other contract, there are legal protections for the victimized partner.)

Imagine if society said that women lack emotional intelligence because they can’t tell when their husbands are unhappy and about to cheat.

Imagine if society said that women lack emotional intelligence because they believe everything is going great with the guys they are dating, but suddenly the guys flake, ghost and block them.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

BruceBanner said:


> Did something happen? I'm curious. What likely outcome do you wish you would've payed more attention to?


Yeah, I got divorced with a small daughter, and learned some very painful and expensive lessons. I wish I had paid more attention to the divorce rate, percentage of divorces initiated by the wife, and what happens to fathers in family court. I never would've married.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CraigBesuden said:


> My view on marriage proposals:
> 
> You should already have discussions ahead of time. Shop for engagement rings together, etc. It’s just a formality and ritual. The question should only be formally asked if you already know what the answer will be. The man should do the formal proposal, but the woman can be the first one to bring it up informally if she wants.


I agree. 

Proposals should not be out of the blue and should not before there have been some frank open discussions which both parties discuss important topics like values and more and their views on family, financial management, employment, marital sexuality, child rearing, the role of each other’s parents and siblings in their new family, division of household chores and expenses etc etc etc etc etc etc. 

These things should be discussed and be part of the mate selection process before there is some kind of grand proposal and wedding party planning. 

Dating is an interview and probationary period where people spend time together and do things together in an effort to get to know each other to determine if they are the person for each other or not. 

These discussions need to be part of that process before the engagement rather than being mentioned in passing after the engagement while trying to pick out wedding colors, determine invitation lists, reserving the venues and caterers and picking out table decorations.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

BruceBanner said:


> I'd rather not take unnecessary risks. I firmly believe that marriage is largely a losing game for men.


Everything we do is a risk. "Unnecessary" is subjective.

Losing game? Maybe. But we're not all Al Bundy.
And not every marriage ends in divorce.

So maybe... and maybe not.
YMMV I guess.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think we need to evolve away from this idea that men provide and women are dependents because this is what causes men to get shafted in court. It only works when women have no options and can't leave.
> 
> Besides, women are working so they don't need to be dependents that men are responsible for after divorce.
> 
> Once we get away from this line of thinking we'll also get away from this idea that women benefit from marriage, men don't, and are doing us a big fat favor to marry us. If we get to the point that people see a benefit to being married people will get married more often. Couples will work out arrangements that suit them and if it doesn't work out they'll go their separate ways with nobody being shafted.


Sounds good. Now all we have to do is change law and custom to suit this new line of thinking.
Maybe it will happen in the 22nd century.


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## Real talk (Apr 13, 2017)

I think men marry women who compel them to make them their wife.

A woman who wants to get married needs to sit back and ask herself why would the man she wants marry her. If she cant come up with up with anything more than generic rhetoric (because I provide companionship) or basic human decency (I'm nice) then what makes you anything more than a roommate?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

After about a year together and living together (and buying a house together), my gf asked if I'd someday marry her. I said I would. It took another 6 years for my ex to move to make the divorce final, but I married my long-term gf 90 days later. I wish I could have done so sooner. We were both ambivalent about marriage, but it was a pragmatic decision to actually do it; we had all the love and commitment we truly needed, married or not.


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## bkyln309 (Feb 1, 2015)

Im a woman who has no desire to marry my long term partner. We are older and have our own assets. We want the relationship but not the contract 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

bkyln309 said:


> Im a woman who has no desire to marry my long term partner. We are older and have our own assets. We want the relationship but not the contract
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The only thing that matters is you're happy about it. I wouldn't be happy. I'm back to being single but will go back into the dating world later on. I'm exhausted with the dating process.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Sprinkles87 said:


> Why should I get blamed for what other women do? Why should I be happy to just be a forever gf? Why can't I go for my goals, which is getting married and have a child; raised a child in a marriage?


I don’t think you are getting blamed, you’re just suffering the consequences like other women in your shoes are doing every day.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

bkyln309 said:


> Im a woman who has no desire to marry my long term partner. We are older and have our own assets. We want the relationship but not the contract


I get the point of what you are saying, especially if there are no children, but there are legal benefits to marriage that vary from state to state, which is why some gays and lesbians fought to be able to be married. Being married can change whether taxes need to be paid on inheritance, how easy it is for someone to visit you in a hospital or make medical decisions for you, etc. I saw this in action with my two unmarried aunts who lived together for most of their life. While it was not a romantic partnership, they lived together, shared expenses, and depended on each other. Bank accounts got locked upon death because of inheritance taxes, inheritance taxes needed to be paid because siblings ere not exempt in our state, etc. It was a mess. Do whatever you think is right but that contract could be useful to each other as you reach the ends of your lives.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Sprinkles87 said:


> Why should I be happy to just be a forever gf? Why can't I go for my goals, which is getting married and have a child; raised a child in a marriage?


First, what do you offer to a man if he marries you? Make that clear and make sure it's something that men consider worthwhile.

A few years ago, a friend's daughter got married and I talked to the groom. They met via a dating application. One of the things he liked about her was that she was serious about a long-term relationship. So there are men who want what you want. Neither of them were trophy spouse material but he's a nice reliable guy and she provided what he was looking for. I don't mean to be mean saying that. The same could be said about me and my wife and many of my friends. There are a lot of relatively boring beta guys still out there looking to find women who will be their wives and have children and most women won't even give them a first look, nevermind a second look.

Studies show that women are pickier than men on dating applications, all going after the top looking men only. Those top men have lots of choices and little reason to settle on one woman. If you've been dating the hottest and most successful guys that will date you, they're probably not grateful to be with you because they feel they can always replace you. And they probably have a lot of other women eager to date them.

Let me suggest a different approach, if you haven't tried this already (if you have, my apologies, this doesn't apply to you then). Try dating a boring beta guy that you don't think is a top pick with respect to appearance, job, or hobbies but would be a good father and provider for you and your children that you share some interests in common with. If you pick a beta guy who feels lucky and grateful to be with you, I bet he'll be less likely to cheat on you and more likely to ask you to marry him and stay with you forever. He'll also be more likely to do anything for you to make you happy because he'll believe he needs to work to deserve you and keep you. 

The challenge is that a lot of women aren't turned on by such men. They don't enjoy sex with them so they may cheat on them. They don't respect men who are too eager to please them and prefer men who make them work to please and keep them, which is why a lot of guys are left wondering why women seem to gravitate toward men who treat them like garbage. They want a spouse that their friends will envy and not laugh at them over. If you don't have that problem or can get over that problem and be attracted to boring beta men, you'll could be golden with a reliable but not very exciting guy if your top priority is a marriage, a good provider, and children. Then the ball is in your court to stay with him and be a good wife.

Note that I'm not trying to put you down or call you are a gold-digger or shallow. You are entitled to like what you like and not like what you don't like. You can't entirely control what guys do or don't turn you on. I'm simply assuming you are fairly normal and attractive. That is how culture is telling women to think and behave and what women are rewarded for. You may believe you deserve only the best, but so does every other woman and they're all clustering around the same "best" guys but there aren't enough of them to go around and they have so many choices that they don't have to settle. 

See also this video (click link) from the movie A Beautiful Mind illustrating the same point from a male perspective (it can go both ways and happen in the other direction, too, so it's not just women). Very much worth watching and understanding. For many women, their high expectations can lead them to not even consider the men who would actually make good husbands and fathers and instead lead them to men who just want to have fun and keep them forever in the girlfriend zone. Compared to the guys they're all shooting for, those men are boring and bland.

Note that I'm also not suggesting that all beta men are worthy of having a relationship with or marrying and there are certainly some true losers and really creepy guys out there. I've worked for a social media company and was appalled by the messages guys would send women as a pick-up line and they even tried warning men not to send super-creepy things to women when certain words appeared in their messages and provided a way for women to block creepy men. So, yeah, there are a lot of creepy men out there. By all means avoid them. I also don't expect you to hit it off with every beta male you talk to. And there are plenty of beta men and women with unrealistic expectations, too. I'm not calling them all saints.

My point is that there are a lot of men on the other side of this who also want to get married and have children who complain that women won't date them or look at them and don't consider them romantic relationship material. Those guys are often eager to find a woman who will have a relationship with them. Yup, a lot of them are boring and don't have toned athletic bodies. Maybe lower your expectations a bit and see what you can get.

If that's not at least part of your problem, then don't take this personally because what I'm saying doesn't apply to you. But I do think this is relevant to the problems a lot of women are having with men. And if you are sure this won't work for you, feel free to ignore it.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

Op as I said in your other thread, you sound entitled AF, it's all about your wants, your needs. You will never get your hearts desires from a good man because they will see your agenda a mile off. Instead of whining in an Internet forum about men not wanting your entitled ass, why not work on bringing something beyond your looks to the table. There's nothing wrong with wanting marriage and kids, but men don't want to just be seen as a means to an end. The way you write, the man is interchangeable as long as he'll marry you and provide the resources to allow you to make house.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

My ex started pressuring me to propose after we had been dating for two years. She hadn't broken up with me because I hadn't done anything wrong enough but I don't think she had strong feelings for me. I thought she was nucking futs because we had just moved away to college and hadn't lived out of your parents' houses more than 6 months, neither of us had graduated from college, and we didn't have the means to live on our own without going into debt as long as we were going to college. We weren't really adults yet. Heck she didn't even really know what she wanted to do as an adult.

I told her that once she had decided what she wanted to be when she grew up I would consider proposing. Ironically she gave me "propose or we're done" choice and I told her the same thing. She got pissed and told me what she was going to do (IE which school she was going to go to, which major, etc). Shortly after the fight I did propose. It was probably a mistake (notwithstanding the 16 year marriage) because she was often either unmotivated/directionless or pissed. Now that she's on her own and she can't be pissed at me, she's depressed.

I think an ultimatum is often a mistake. Like sex, anything less than an enthusiastic yes is a no. Arm twisting to get or stay married is a terrible idea because if you win you end up with someone that didn't want to be there and that sounds miserable.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Get use to it... men are wising, up. Marriage is a suckers game.


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## bygone (11 mo ago)

comment can be offensive

Most men are not interested in proposing to someone who has lived together outside of wedlock for many years in the past.

Even 2/3. divorced women can marry, but they do not think of marrying a man/woman who has never been married, this is a general pattern for religious or social reasons.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

ABHale said:


> I don’t think you are getting blamed, you’re just suffering the consequences like other women in your shoes are doing every day.


Yes I took too long to dump my first bf. I should've gotten rid of him after 2 years of him not following up with his promise of coming over and marrying me.


UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Get use to it... men are wising, up. Marriage is a suckers game.


Well when I was younger, I had hopes of marrying my first love. I wanted things the right way (never cared whether he was wealthy or not; in fact I met him as a broke man...even gave him money he never paid me back) but I got future faked. I stupidly let him drain most of my years. I was his sucker of this ''long-term, forever gf game''.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

Jamieboy said:


> Instead of whining in an Internet forum about men not wanting your entitled ass, why not work on bringing something beyond your looks to the table.


Yes my first ex bf never paid my money back. He used me for money too.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I don't know if it's just me noticing this but more women are nowadays stuck at the ''forever gf'' zone. I've noticed this phenomenon isn't just happening in the USA but in some latin American countries too. Those women are either living together or dating their men for 5+ yrs without an engagement ring and no kids and wondering when is he going to propose. Or the man keeps postponing things, saying what they want to hear, keeping them with false hopes, says he loves her, one day we'll have kids but she's stuck in the gf zone.


This is a statement about men, women, relationships and marriage in general. She claims she’s seen an international change in the dynamic between men and women. The OP’s question is not a question about a specific person’s life. The question is whether there is a “permanent GF” status today.

Is there now a “forever GF zone” today that did not exist in the past?

I don’t believe OP is asking for misogyny and counterproductive advice packaged as feminism. She already has that. She’s trying to understand why it doesn’t work when she and her friends do what they’ve been told will work.

There is, in fact, a trend of fewer women getting married. Here's a more female-positive explanation of why that's happening (e.g., the pool of men is declining in quality):

Women Are Getting Married Less And Less — Here's Why (bolde.com) 

But fewer men are interested in marriage than women:

"Men and women overall do not answer differently in rating the priority of a successful marriage to them, but there are differences among young adults, ages 18 to 34. About four-in-ten (39%) young women say that having a successful marriage is 'one of the most important things' in their life, compared with about three-in-ten (29%) young men who say so."

Love and Marriage | Pew Research Center


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

You know all this red pill chad versus alpha crap doesn't appear to have much to do with OP.

Juan and her current boyfriend don't sound all that. They don't sound like they are in the top 10 or 20% of the men.

Bottom line is there are men who lie about their long term intentions to keep someone convenient hanging around and there are women who fall for it wasting their years away. Yet is a woman wants to know where the relationship is at 1 year or 2 years in these same red pill **** spouters will say it's too early to talk about that. You'll scare him off. They also expect sex like on date 3 but expect a girl to not have too many partners. Women need to wise up and just stay away from men like this.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

CraigBesuden said:


> While you might view this as the women being victimized by the top 10% of men who want to enjoy sex with pretty, young women and then discard them, the bottom 90% of men view themselves as victims of this dynamic.
> 
> The bottom 90% of men feel invisible until they near 30 and are established in their careers. Then the women wash back from the men they want and feel that they deserve, and want marriage and kids with the bottom 90% guys.
> 
> ...


Dude, I know you love to preach your crap because it makes you feel better about yourself or whatever, but you obviously haven't read a word OP said.

The only mistake she's made was wasting too much time on a man who strung her along. She's never lived with a man or messed around with a ton. This red pill crap barrage on her thread is now pretty much harassment.

You guys are really getting tiresome now. Aren't you married anyway?? So you obviously don't practice what you preach.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> You know all this red pill chad versus alpha crap doesn't appear to have much to do with OP.
> 
> Juan and her current boyfriend don't sound all that. They don't sound like they are in the top 10 or 20% of the men.
> 
> Bottom line is there are men who lie about their long term intentions to keep someone convenient hanging around and there are women who fall for it wasting their years away. Yet is a woman wants to know where the relationship is at 1 year or 2 years in these same red pill **** spouters will say it's too early to talk about that. You'll scare him off. They also expect sex like on date 3 but expect a girl to not have too many partners. Women need to wise up and just stay away from men like this.


Oh, he's just looking for another opportunity to whip it out. Every time I read this drivel, I can't help but think the preachers must be butthurt about never getting picked or carrying scars from when they were publicly pantsed as kids or something.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

TXTrini said:


> Oh, he's just looking for another opportunity to whip it out. Every time I read this drivel, I can't help but think the preachers must be butthurt about never getting picked or carrying scars from when they were publicly pantsed as kids or something.


Well internet you tube experts don't need to constantly take out their crap on an unrelated person who is hurting and looking for help.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well internet you tube experts don't need to constantly take out their crap on an unrelated person who is hurting and looking for help.


It gets annoying to see the same out of context crap over and over.

@Sprinkles87 
My advice is to take a good hard look at yourself and answer some hard questions. 
Do you really want to be a mother or this a milestone you feel you need to pass? Which do you want MORE... a child or a husband who is a life partner?

I guess I don't understand the motherhood drive because I never had it. I knew at 16 I never wanted to be one, but I did want marriage. However, that didn't stop me from getting married... twice. According to the bitter butthurt brigade, I'd be forever gf material. Unless you want to marry one of them, their opinions are irrelevant. 

If you are interested in marriage, you can't sit waiting around for Prince Charming to show up, he doesn't exist. Respect yourself and treasure your time. Eliminate anyone who comes across as a **** Boi, and be clear with your intentions. I'm not saying focus on getting married, just weed out men who are not interested in that and only consider men already working towards being a husband. Don't look at potential, assess a man for who he is now and evaluate your compatibility with respect to values and how you want to live the rest of your life. 

Honestly, I think you need to forget about the "proper order" of marriage> kids if you want a bio child. You're 35, not 25. I'm not criticizing you, just saying you need to reassess yourself and your priorities. Life never goes how we plan it, it's full of surprises and messy and painful. But your life and dreams are not over because some random men on the internet who aren't in your dating pool anyway say so.

Many people get married later in life, if you really want that, you can too. Just accept that it's not going to be exactly what you pictured or wanted, be open to possibility and realistic with your desires, and you'll be just fine. Sometimes what we want most is not what we need.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> Dude, I know you love to preach your crap because it makes you feel better about yourself or whatever, but you obviously haven't read a word OP said.
> 
> The only mistake she's made was wasting too much time on a man who strung her along. She's never lived with a man or messed around with a ton. This red pill crap barrage on her thread is now pretty much harassment.
> 
> You guys are really getting tiresome now. Aren't you married anyway?? So you obviously don't practice what you preach.


I don’t preach for men not to get married.

But calling any opinion with which you disagree as RP may be harassment.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

Anastasia6 said:


> You know all this red pill chad versus alpha crap doesn't appear to have much to do with OP.
> 
> Juan and her current boyfriend don't sound all that. They don't sound like they are in the top 10 or 20% of the men.
> 
> Bottom line is there are men who lie about their long term intentions to keep someone convenient hanging around and there are women who fall for it wasting their years away. Yet is a woman wants to know where the relationship is at 1 year or 2 years in these same red pill **** spouters will say it's too early to talk about that. You'll scare him off. They also expect sex like on date 3 but expect a girl to not have too many partners. Women need to wise up and just stay away from men like this.


I'm single by now. I just broke up about 2 weeks ago with my 2nd bf too. Neither of them even knew how to drive and both were broke. None of my friends nor family members even found my 1st bf (Juan) attractive at all; he wasn't even tall either...he was just 5'8-5'9 and I'm 5'7. My close friend even though he had a horrible hispanic accent. As for my 2nd bf, he wasn't attractive to be honest; he was just average and had rotten a whole front row of rotten yellow teeth. They never had cars and I accepted them like that. Both have something in common (even though Juan ended being a sociopathic-narcissists and the other isn't): both are liars that future faked. My recent ex bf gave me a false date of when a marriage proposal and wedding would take place. He allowed me to write down those dates on my cell, never once stopped me and tried wasting my time too. Someone giving you a date and then somehow not remembering it when you mentioned it is still a lie.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

So nope, I never dated a top 10% attractive man with tons of money and a car. I think I've been a simple and humble woman that never cared about a man's wealth. I just wanted love and marriage. 

Now since I won't be able to get a man to commit at a quicker pace, I'm already 35 and unlikely have a child with him; I'm now opting to having an IUI (intrauterine insemination) done one me on the following month. I've always paid for the visit and first step. My focus at this moment is to have a child and then later on search for love and marriage. By then it'll be different because I wouldn't have to worry about rushing things and I don't want to be one of those women that had to pressure a man to commit. I want this to come naturally from him, him to want me as wife.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

CraigBesuden said:


> I don’t preach for men not to get married.


I do! Absolutely no upside for anyone to get married.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I'm single by now. I just broke up about 2 weeks ago with my 2nd bf too. Neither of them even knew how to drive and both were broke. None of my friends nor family members even found my 1st bf (Juan) attractive at all; he wasn't even tall either...he was just 5'8-5'9 and I'm 5'7. My close friend even though he had a horrible hispanic accent. As for my 2nd bf, he wasn't attractive to be honest; he was just average and had rotten a whole front row of rotten yellow teeth. They never had cars and I accepted them like that. Both have something in common (even though Juan ended being a sociopathic-narcissists and the other isn't): both are liars that future faked. My recent ex bf gave me a false date of when a marriage proposal and wedding would take place. He allowed me to write down those dates on my cell, never once stopped me and tried wasting my time too. Someone giving you a date and then somehow not remembering it when you mentioned it is still a lie.


I had a feeling it was something like that. Let me pass on something I've learned along the way. People will treat you how you allow it, being too nice gets you nowhere. You need to know and like yourself and be ok jettisoning garbage from your life instead of accepting crap treatment from people. That doesn't mean treating men like crap either, just respectfully move on from men who don't respect you enough to treat you how you'd like to be treated. 



Sprinkles87 said:


> So nope, I never dated a top 10% attractive man with tons of money and a car. I think I've been a simple and humble woman that never cared about a man's wealth. I just wanted love and marriage.
> 
> Now since I won't be able to get a man to commit at a quicker pace, I'm already 35 and unlikely have a child with him; I'm now opting to having an IUI (intrauterine insemination) done one me on the following month. I've always paid for the visit and first step. My focus at this moment is to have a child and then later on search for love and marriage. By then it'll be different because I wouldn't have to worry about rushing things and I don't want to be one of those women that had to pressure a man to commit. I want this to come naturally from him, him to want me as wife.


Now that you seem to be making peace with being on your own, you might have options you didn't see before. After all, which man would feel special if you picked him to fill a role rather than for the person he is? 

In light of what you said above, maybe you need to have higher standards, it sounds like you were scraping the bottom of the barrel. You don't need perfect, but you don't need poop either.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> The only mistake she's made was wasting too much time on a man who strung her along. She's never lived with a man or messed around with a ton. This red pill crap barrage on her thread is now pretty much harassment.


Yeah I regret idolizing that scammer. He took everything from me: companionship (it always starts out as friends for a bit), relationship, trust, sex, years and lastly my money I've given him for our future of marriage. Then base on everything I've told my psychologist, she labelled him a sociopathic-narcissist. So I was indeed with a horrible person, not just a jerk.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> You know all this red pill chad versus alpha crap doesn't appear to have much to do with OP.
> 
> Juan and her current boyfriend don't sound all that. They don't sound like they are in the top 10 or 20% of the men.


OP asked about an international trend she’s seeing, including a permanent GF zone. I was responding to that, not her particular situation.



> Bottom line is there are men who lie about their long term intentions to keep someone convenient hanging around and there are women who fall for it wasting their years away. Yet is a woman wants to know where the relationship is at 1 year or 2 years in these same red pill **** spouters will say it's too early to talk about that. You'll scare him off.


I don’t know about RP, but I certainly believe a woman shouldn’t go 3 months (certainly 6 months) without discussing marriage, if that is what she wants.



> They also expect sex like on date 3 but expect a girl to not have too many partners. Women need to wise up and just stay away from men like this.


Women can certainly stay away from men who prefer women with low body counts. I’m not sure that will increase their odds of getting married, though.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

CraigBesuden said:


> Women can certainly stay away from men who prefer women with low body counts. I’m not sure that will increase their odds of getting married, though.


I have no issues with the low count. My count still remains at just 1.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Sprinkles87 said:


> Yeah I regret idolizing that scammer. He took everything from me: companionship (it always starts out as friends for a bit), relationship, trust, sex, years and lastly my money I've given him for our future of marriage. Then base on everything I've told my psychologist, she labelled him a sociopathic-narcissist. So I was indeed with a horrible person, not just a jerk.


Ok, you need to do some reframing. Since you can't control what other people do, or don't do, you need to accept accountability for your choices. 

Instead of spending time (and money!) asking your therapist about the men who you, explore why you pick them, what about you attracts them and how to identify a healthy relationship so you can learn from that experience moving forward.

No point in shoulda/coulda/didna now, you know? Anyway, I wish you all the best going forward!


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Sprinkles87 said:


> So nope, I never dated a top 10% attractive man with tons of money and a car. I think I've been a simple and humble woman that never cared about a man's wealth. I just wanted love and marriage.


But you didn’t pick this man at random. He must have had some positive characteristics if you wanted to date and marry him. What were his positives?


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> Ok, you need to do some reframing. Since you can't control what other people do, or don't do, you need to accept accountability for your choices.
> 
> Instead of spending time (and money!) asking your therapist about the men who you, explore why you pick them, what about you attracts them and how to identify a healthy relationship so you can learn from that experience moving forward.
> 
> No point in shoulda/coulda/didna now, you know? Anyway, I wish you all the best going forward!


True. I need a break from the dating world. Since I'm opting on having artificial insemination anyway, I'll stop focusing on men from now. I chose Juan because there was some seducing nature in him and he promised marriage later on so I thought he was serious. I was a virgin when I met him, had no experience at all with people and wasn't streetsmart at all. I was innocent in every single way, not just physically. I didn't know better.
With my ex bf is quite different. I chose him out of desperation. I was 34 when I got rid of Juan and time was running out for me. So I chose him because I thought we had some thing in common such as liking Judo (martial arts), not into parties and apparently he seemed family oriented too. My parents liked my 2nd bf in the beginning too. However, my father and I started seeing things slowing down suddenly, not progressing. I was dead wrong on both men.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Sprinkles87 said:


> Then base on everything I've told my psychologist, she labelled him a sociopathic-narcissist. So I was indeed with a horrible person, not just a jerk.


Women are often attracted to men with the “dark triad” (Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy).



https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886913012245



The preference for “dark triad” men may have evolutionary origins:









Ladies, It May Pay To Go After The Bad Boys In The Long Run


Could being attracted to dark, brooding men be a good thing in terms of evolution?




www.medicaldaily.com













Psychology Uncovers Sex Appeal of Dark Personalities


Why are narcissists more physically attractive?




www.scientificamerican.com


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

CraigBesuden said:


> But you didn’t pick this man at random. He must have had some positive characteristics if you wanted to date and marry him. What were his positives?


I liked his accent back then, he was outgoing, was streetsmarts, knew how to keep up a conversation with anyone and said he wanted marriage one day.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Sprinkles87 said:


> True. I need a break from the dating world. Since I'm opting on having artificial insemination anyway, I'll stop focusing on men from now. I chose Juan because there was some seducing nature in him and he promised marriage later on so I thought he was serious. I was a virgin when I met him, had no experience at all with people and wasn't streetsmart at all. I was innocent in every single way, not just physically. I didn't know better.
> With my ex bf is quite different. I chose him out of desperation. I was 34 when I got rid of Juan and time was running out for me. So I chose him because I thought we had some thing in common such as liking Judo (martial arts), not into parties and apparently he seemed family oriented too. My parents liked my 2nd bf in the beginning too. However, my father and I started seeing things slowing down suddenly, not progressing. I was dead wrong on both men.


See? You're already doing so much better! Only you can make yourself happy anyway; you can't find that in another person. What's the point in hurrying just to check a box on a form if it's doomed to fail in the long run?

I've made my mistakes in choosing men, as have many women. Hey, most, if not all of the men ragging on you in this thread have picked ****ty women too, so don't feel bad about it. All you can do is learn from your experiences, try not to repeat mistakes, and keep the ball rolling forward. 

You sound like you have your **** together and are financially set to have your baby. Men get older and less attractive too. They all come with baggage, crazy exes and/ baby mommas, etc. So don't let anyone let you feel less than simply because you're getting older and decided not to wait for a husband to have a baby.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

CraigBesuden said:


> I don’t preach for men not to get married.
> 
> But calling any opinion with which you disagree as RP may be harassment.


I'm sorry, I couldn't find your opinion in your diatribe of crap. 

Most of what I've seen you "write" on any thread that remotely brings up male/female dynamics reads like copy/paste of red pill spam; there's no sense of a real person behind it.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> I'm sorry, I couldn't find your opinion in your diatribe of crap.
> 
> Most of what I've seen you "write" on any thread that remotely brings up male/female dynamics reads like copy/paste of red pill spam; there's no sense of a real person behind it.


And what you write appears to me to be NPC misandry that has proven harmful to those who believe it. If you didn’t recognize at some level that your views are wrong, you wouldn’t refer to opposing views as taking the “red pill” of the Matrix that causes one to become aware of reality.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I don't know if it's just me noticing this but more women are nowadays stuck at the ''forever gf'' zone. I've noticed this phenomenon isn't just happening in the USA but in some latin American countries too. Those women are either living together or dating their men for 5+ yrs without an engagement ring and no kids and wondering when is he going to propose. Or the man keeps postponing things, saying what they want to hear, keeping them with false hopes, says he loves her, one day we'll have kids but she's stuck in the gf zone.
> 
> The men get too comfortable, don't progress to marriage and by the time they realized their men won't marry them, they are already 30+ years old. I got out of that zone last year. Even though my current bf and I've been dating for 10 months (we're not living together and waiting till marriage), I really have desires to be proposed and have a child. I don't want to be a forever gf. I don't want to date forever.
> 
> Is this ''forever gf'' zone a real thing nowadays?


I think it could be a forever gf kind of situation if the woman doesn't have enough self respect to walk away, and waste her life on a relationship that won't go anywhere. I was reading today about how some men could get emotionally lazy. A woman has to ensure that doesn't happen.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I'm already 35 and unlikely have a child with him; I'm now opting to having an IUI (intrauterine insemination) done one me on the following month. I've always paid for the visit and first step. My focus at this moment is to have a child and then later on search for love and marriage.


While I have some concerns about this decision, I'm not going to fault you for it and understand why you are making this choice. I just want to point out that having a child could make it harder to find a single man who will commit to marrying you, especially if you are past the point of being able to give him biological children if has none. As such, your best shot after making this decision may be with men who have children from previous relationships (divorced, widowed, or never married and broken up) who are looking for someone to parent alongside them but don't need you to provide them with biological children. Also keep in mind that if you already have a child that you'll need to be careful about the men you introduce to your child and their motives for dating you.


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## Diceplayer (Oct 12, 2019)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I'm now opting to having an IUI (intrauterine insemination) done one me on the following month.


How do you support yourself? Do you work? If so, what are you going to do with the baby while you work?


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> I just want to point out that having a child could make it harder to find a single man who will commit to marrying you, especially if you are past the point of being able to give him biological children if has none. As such, your best shot after making this decision may be with men who have children from previous relationships (divorced, widowed, or never married and broken up) who are looking for someone to parent alongside them but don't need you to provide them with biological children. Also keep in mind that if you already have a child that you'll need to be careful about the men you introduce to your child and their motives for dating you.


I've thought about this and I'm aware my dating pool would be reduced by then. I don't plan on having anymore kids once I have my child. A previous divorced, broken up or widowed man with his own kids that wants to remarry for companionship and love would be ok with me.
I have to still do the vetting process off course and know very well who I'm getting involved with. Yes it's going to be harder indeed but not impossible.


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## Sprinkles87 (3 mo ago)

Diceplayer said:


> How do you support yourself? Do you work? If so, what are you going to do with the baby while you work?


Yes I work from home as a bilingual, phone translator. I'm going to be working on Sundays too. Like previously mentioned it's common in my country for some of us to still live with our families even if we can work and support ourselves. My parents will help out while I'm working.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Sprinkles87 said:


> I've thought about this and I'm aware my dating pool would be reduced by then. I don't plan on having anymore kids once I have my child. A previous divorced, broken up or widowed man with his own kids that wants to remarry for companionship and love would be ok with me.
> I have to still do the vetting process off course and know very well who I'm getting involved with. Yes it's going to be harder indeed but not impossible.


Listen. People with kids get married to others all the time particularly at your age. 
Women have been single mothers since the age of being mothers began. It's great you have your parents to help, family is important.

When you get ready to date again.
Try actually thinking about what kind of person you actually want to be with. Have standards. Then also think about what actions match the qualities you are looking for. Only look at actions not words. IF the words and actions don't match what you are looking for then step to the next. While many of us would have loved to find our true love first and marry young and our first. It doesn't happen that way for many. Think of it more like clothes or shoe shopping. You might have to try on 10 pairs of pants before you get the one that fits just right.


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## Diceplayer (Oct 12, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> Listen. People with kids get married to others all the time


That's true, and approximately 70% of those marriages fail.


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## Diceplayer (Oct 12, 2019)

Sprinkles87 said:


> Yes I work from home as a bilingual, phone translator. I'm going to be working on Sundays too. Like previously mentioned it's common in my country for some of us to still live with our families even if we can work and support ourselves. My parents will help out while I'm working.


That's good. Someone will be there to love on him. I was afraid that he might be warehoused in day care.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> Men get older and less attractive too.


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