# Living with not knowing....



## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Hello everyone,

It's been a while since I posted anything, but some of the recent threads, like successful rugsweep and why do spouses cheat, have made me decide to tell more of my own story. I've been reluctant to do so, partly because I know many of you will just tell me to divorce and partly because of the inevitable judgements.

My H and I have been informally separated in our home since January. Ours is a long term marriage, going on 27 years this fall, that has almost always been difficult. We disagreed on some fundamental issues, such as child rearing, and my H has some serious OCD issues, hoarding being the one that has affected me the most. Our home has been a battleground, with me wanting to get rid of things and him refusing. We managed it through renting an expensive storage unit for the past 23 years and me just getting rid of things, like old newspapers and clothing. He was very angry whenever I tried to deal with his things, and all the anger eventually spilled over to our sexual relationship. 

We have three children, but I have had six pregnancies. During those years, I wasn't as available to him as he wanted and he used that as an excuse to cheat repeatedly. At the time, I only knew that he acted like he hated me a lot of the times. His job necessitated working odd hours - nights, weekends, and holidays - so I didn't think much of it when he said he was staying downtown. In hindsight, I should have put it all together, but I was busy trying to keep things in order and our children were small and I didn't have any help.

Eventually, I found it when he confessed to one affair after I came across some old, unexplained credit card bills. This was almost seven years ago. I couldn't deal with it at the time, we were having severe financial problems, and then a series of family deaths, including his mother and then mine, were taking up my attention. Basically, I rug swept it and he was relieved to not have to talk about it. But, I couldn't stand to be intimate with him. In my mind, I was able to compartmentalize and still act like the devoted wife, but my body rebelled. I also decided to go back to work, partly because I vowed never to be financially dependent on another person again. 

After about four years, I came up for air and started to take care of myself again, working out and losing weight. I also started to miss sex and decided to try to get past the betrayal, reasoning that the affair was by this time, ancient history and I had forgiven him. We went away for a night for our 25th anniversary and had sex for the first time in years. My body responded just fine, as he remembered well what I liked. But, he had trouble, and it was awkward and made me feel like a robot. There was no feeling there for me anymore and I realized that I didn't love him. 

So, I panicked and slowly began an online EA with someone I met through a public forum. We progressed to sexting and, unbeknown to me at the time, my H was spying on me via a keylogger and had hacked all my passwords, including my phone and work email. 

When he finally admitted to it, at first I was apologetic and vowed to stop. But, I also felt intense rage at what I viewed as his complete hypocrisy. He had a PA for years in complete secrecy and yet, he was acting like what I did was much worse. Long story short, I didn't stop at first, just went further underground. I have some insight now into why I behaved the way I did, but I'm not going to go into that now as it will just make this that much longer.

Anyhow, it all really blew up last fall when he finally admitted to first three affairs, then five, and acknowledged that it started when I was pregnant with our son, who i now sixteen. I was in a great deal of pain, both from his confession and having to say goodbye to my EA partner. I was also under a lot of stress with a full time job and an intense masters program I had started. I wanted to leave him, but agreed to marriage counseling.

He moved into the basement and, with some time and space, we are slowly trying to be friends again. He would like it to be more, he says he realized when he saw he was losing me that he loves me, but I don't think I can ever feel that kind of love for him again. He is worried that I will leave him in a year when my son graduates from high school and I am finished with the masters program and can get a better paying job.

I truly don't know where I will be at that point. I will be 57 years old and the thought of starting over again and tearing my family apart makes me think I will most likely stay. I think my H and I can settle into a companionable relationship, we had that for years before my revenge affair. 

What I really want to know from all of you is this - how did you get past not knowing the real truth? In our MC and at home talks, I have accused him of doing much more than he has ever admitted to and he doesn't deny it. But, with my own history, there are emails I shared, etc. with my AP that he doesn't know about, so I don't feel like I can push him to be completely open. The bottom line is, how do I get past not knowing everything? Please don't say I have to be open about everything myself, I don't think he deserves my honesty because of all the lies he's told me.

Sorry for the length, and I actually need to go now to pick up my son, but I'll check in later and respond to any questions.


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

your husband sounds like a serial cheater. once someone goes down that path, it is a difficult one to stop. it is a daunting thing to think of ending a relationship after so many years but life does go on. I divorced at 59 after 37 years of marriage; am now 4 years into a new marriage. life goes on.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

blahfridge said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> It's been a while since I posted anything, but some of the recent threads, like successful rugsweep and why do spouses cheat, have made me decide to tell more of my own story. I've been reluctant to do so, partly because I know many of you will just tell me to divorce and partly because of the inevitable judgements.
> 
> ...


So, where's his hoarding issue at right now? That would be enough for me even if he wasn't a serial cheater!

Honestly, it sounds like you'll be much happier alone. Neither one of you are willing to give the other the level of honesty and vulnerability necessary for a healthy relationship. I think sometimes relationships get to a point where there is truly too much damage and it can't be repaired. If both of you were still totally in love with each other, maybe. But, you're clearly not.

You won't be "starting over" at your age. You'll just be beginning the next chapter.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

I believe in honesty, that said I think both of you need to admit all. Sadly I don't know if you two will do this. You both have hurt each other over the years and I'm sure there is resentment by both of you. To truly reconcile you both need to own your affairs, not just parts you want. Reconciliation is hard work, there are no shortcuts, and it isn't for everyone. You have both built walls that will require a long time to tear down. I apologize I have said exactly what you don't want to hear, to reconcile without being honest is foolish. In order to forgive you need to know what you are forgiving.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

have you stopped your A?


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Affairs aside a second, i sense resentment on both sides of the relationship, have you give much thought to starting to clear between you two? perhaps a couple therapy weekend where you both can work on your communication skills. there is no promise that will help but even if you are just friends then perhaps that is goal you both work towards, because right now there are no goals, there is just drifting as times moves on....57 is never too old to start life anew, whether with him or without him. remember this is not your kids life, its not your husband life, its life...is this the life you want?


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Home for a short spell and then I have to pick my son up again...counting the days until he has his license! 

First off, I knew that most of you would advise honesty or just ending it and, while I do appreciate that advice, it's not where I am at yet. Sometimes I could kick myself or getting into the EA because I lost the high road in handling what my H did. My therapist tells me it's a drop in the bucket compared to what H did, but I can't help but feel guilty about it. There are many things I wish I had done differently, but I can't change the past. I'm just trying to move forward one step at a time and I'm not ready to leave so, until and if I do, I have to find a way to come to some peace within myself about the situation. 

My H has not been unfaithful now for almost 10 years, I believe that to be true, and he hardly drinks at all anymore, which was one of the driving forces behind his behavior. The hoarding has gotten better in that he no longer fights me on getting rid of most joint household items, but he still isn't able to easily deal with his own clutter. I've also given up some, to the extent that I try to ignore what he as in the basement and garage. The truth is that I haven't had much time to deal with any of it either these past few years with my course work and job, but I am off work for the summer, so I am trying to do what I can. Again, my therapist says to control those things that I can and try to let go what I cannot. 

But, even though it's been almost a decade, the extent of his cheating has just now become known to me in the last six months. He says he's sorry, but I believe he's only sorry that he got caught and then felt compelled to tell me more of the truth after I insisted that it wasn't fair for him to know all that he knew about my dalliance through his spying, when he got away with saying he had only had one affair for over six years and I never questioned it. In fact, I never questioned him at all...another one of my mistakes. But at the time, I think I went into shock and just couldn't deal with it. I also think subconsciously, I knew that if I pushed him on it, he would just lie and I had no way of knowing the truth. He hooked up with women via cheating websites and the computers he used are long gone. 

Plus, I'm not the kind of person who can spy. It's just not in me. Part of the reason I think I married H was because we both gave each other space to have our own friends. Privacy has always been important to both of us, I just trusted that he wasn't abusing it. Now he says that I can look at whatever I want on his phone or computer as his justification for spying on me. He no longer has anything to hide, why should I? But we've never had that kind of marriage and I don't want it now. It's not about having something to hide, it's about respecting my privacy. Besides, when he DID have so much to hide, I certainly wasn't looking. Sound like I am bitter and resentful? You betcha. 

But I am tired of living with that inside me and at the same time, not ready to leave. Despite everything, I do care about him. He is a good father and universally, people will say that he is one of the nicest people you will ever meet. He just wasn't nice to me for a very long time. But that's because of his issues, not mine. I've at least come to see that and now he does want to be nice to me. So, again, how do I survive this time and the idea that I will probably never know everything, with some inner peace?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

OK, right, acknowledge your guilt for your EA.

Right, now that is done has your husband really, 100% acknowledged the destruction he wrought upon his wife and his children?

Your husband is not just OCD, he has many problems that mean he ain't good marriage material.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

blahfridge

I have some questions to ask and please don't think I'm being rude, I'm just trying to better understand your relationship. 
Was your marriage based upon trust? 
When the trust was gone due to infidelity, what was it based on then? 
Do you think building walls is good for marriage? 
What details do you want from your husband?
If your husband is transparent will you be?
Are you both vulnerable to each other? 
What do you want from your marriage? 

From what I see you both resent each other. You want details from his affair but don't want to give up yours. His affairs are worse, I agree, but he seems to be more transparent. This also means that he answer your questions honestly. If he doesn't give you answers, what happens then, another brick is added to your resentment wall. The only way to truly reconcile is to be honest. If you aren't honest and try to build up from there, this has no chance. Would you by a home with a concrete foundation or a foundation of sand? 

It doesn't appear from my perspective that either one of you will be able to demolish the walls of resentment. On the odd chance you do I don't see either of you being vulnerable. You both think you should have privacy, your own lives within the marriage. How can that work? I see you two as roommates at best until you both decide on honesty. 

It's not often that I go against a poster here in supporting what they want. But I hate to say, you are both going against any chance of having the marriage work. If you want full details why? Now why can't you give full details? I'm sure you will give me some answer, but the street goes both ways, and that is a major component of marriage. That also means privacy is in the bathroom, everything else is shared.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nightmare01 (Oct 3, 2014)

You've been lied to for most of your marriage (that's what it sounds like). You weren't allowed the most basic level of respect of being able to make your own decisions. Your husband controlled you by limiting what you knew - you didn't know the reality of the situation you were in. In short you were cheated out of years of your life.

Had you known the truth your life would probably have taken a completely different path. That other life is what your husband cheated you out of by lying.

Yeah I get it.

As far as knowing the details of the affair - some people want more than others. I am a detail oriented person, and wanted details.. my WW decided that some things I should never know.. but I know that I don't know.. and of course that drives me crazy. When pressed my WW retreats behind the "I don't remember" excuse and won't budge.

It's been 14 years since Dday now, and I am still missing a lot of what I wanted to know. Not knowing can eat at you, it's like an itch you can't scratch. 

But if you decide to stay with your husband, I can say from experience that you can get used to that itch. You can learn to live with not knowing.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

blahfridge said:


> Please don't say I have to be open about everything myself, I don't think he deserves my honesty because of all the lies he's told me.


Is withholding the entire truth to punish him in some way or is it your way of still holding on to the affair? Anyways you shouldn't not tell him because you don't think he deserves the truth, you should tell him because you're (trying to be) an honest person and you're serious about working on your marriage. Though I wouldn't blame you if you weren't _all in_. His behaviour is like a portfolia of s*** you shouldn't do to f*** up a marriage.

There's also a lot for you to process and work through regarding your husband's behaviour: the years of multiple instances of infidelity, lies, abuse of your privacy/trust, deception and other conduct.

It doesn't seem like you love your husband. You may care about him but you don't appear to think or feel about him the way a wife should feel about her husband. You write that you don't want to start over at 57 but that is essentially what you're doing in your marriage, starting over with him, and it's not that great of a start.

I would recommend divorce, though that doesn't mean that it has to be immediate. You can take time to work on yourself and sort your life out until you feel ready.


blahfridge said:


> I've been reluctant to do so, partly because I know many of you will just tell me to divorce and partly because of the inevitable judgements.


Ahhh crap forgot to be judgmental.. oh well, next time.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Your husband had five affairs and then used your affair to absolve himself of guilt. 

So, how many keyloggers and spy tactics did you use?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Why did your husband use keyloggers, etc?

*In all likelihood it was to see what you knew about his continuing affairs.*


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

People can't give you advice that they don't believe in, so most people here are not going to openly support your staying in this broken arrangement.

If you want to stay in your marriage, that is certainly your choice and your right. Some people are very emotionally dependent and can't get past the fear of 'starting over.' Other people feel differently.

I don't believe that you are too old to start fresh, away from him. I actually think that you would find a surprising happiness and peace if you tried it.

But that's just me. I would advise you to divorce. Life is too short, in my opinion, to live it in half measures because we are afraid that changes *might* bring difficulties or uncertainties.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

Getting rid of a hoarder's stash without that person's knowledge is -however laudable the intent- dishonest. To a compulsive hoarder, a very significant betrayal.


Just sayin'


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Hi everyone, thanks for your thoughtful replies. Most of you said about what I expected. I'm not ready to leave, not willing to be completely open with him because he hasn't been with me, so I am stuck, as it were. I have some issues of my own I'm trying to work on, namely co-dependency, anxiety and depression. The later two are the most difficult right now. I try to exercise almost daily as I would rather not take medication, but that may be where I have to go. 

I'll start with your post, nightmare01, because your situation is most like my own. Yes, I do feel robbed out of much of my life because had I known about all the cheating while it was happening, I might have left. But, truthfully, I'm not sure about that. My self-esteem was so low then and my dependency on him so great, that I might have believed everything he told me. I certainly believed him when he initially told me that it was only one affair and long over. I deluded myself that, after a while, it didn't matter, and as my excuse for the EA. 

Now I have that same itch you do, to know everything, in order to make sense of my life. But, at the same time, what would I do with that information? Would it help me to leave? If five affairs isn't enough to leave him for, than will more make a difference? I know that he isn't unfaithful anymore, but he admitted to me that it was because he simply got tired of the sneaking around and covering his tracks. I think he also stopped caring so much about sex as he got older and he started to cut down on the drinking. 

So, he wants me now because he almost lost me and, by reading all my emails, poems, my journal, everything, he saw a different side of me that he found interesting, instead of the one dimensional person he made me out to be. How does that make me feel? Like he couldn't be bothered before that to know me. He never put forth any effort to spend time with me, even telling me back then that he had no interest in doing things without the kids. He treated me with indifference and contempt and had no respect for me. So I stopped loving him. Now he is trying to do everything right, but I can't bring myself to feel about him the way he wants me to. Sometimes I feel fleeting glimpses of that feeling, but then the resentment overwhelms me. 

It hasn't been that long, just since January since I've known more of the truth, so I hope it will get easier. We were intimate again regularly last year, but then I found out that I had been exposed to the HPV virus, not the most dangerous kind, thank goodness, but that was the trigger for the current crisis and for his banishment to the basement. I was so angry that I reacted by reaching out to my EA partner again and that is when H finally admitted to all the spying and, under pressure from me, admitted to first three affairs, then five. 

I was enraged, not only about the lying, but about his hypocrisy in thinking that it was his right to know everything, but I wasn't entitled to the same. I know his actions don't excuse mine, please don't lecture me about that. I am well aware that I handled it all in a cowardly way - first, by not confronting him and demanding answers after the first confession, and then by attempting to make myself feel better and forget everything through a fantasy affair. I'm working on figuring out why I behaved the way I did.

I know he won't tell me everything, he claims to have forgotten a lot of it. He was a functioning alcoholic then, so I do believe that some things he probably just can't remember. He knows almost everything there is know about my EA, there isn't much more for me to tell him. He had access to all the emails and I am sure that he still has them, while I deleted everything. 

Sorry that I've rambled off my original intent here, which is to ask, how do you get used to not scratching that itch?


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

2asdf2 said:


> Getting rid of a hoarder's stash without that person's knowledge is -however laudable the intent- dishonest. To a compulsive hoarder, a very significant betrayal.
> 
> 
> Just sayin'


Yes, I know that, but unless you've lived with someone like that you have no idea how difficult it is. But, I lnow that my efforts to get rid of some things was one of the reasons he turned away from me. So, in his mind, it was a significant betrayal. 

I tried to talk to him about it many times and his answer was, "you knew I was like that when you married me." Which is a cop-out. I didn't know the extent of it then, and once we had children with all of the stuff that comes with them, it got so much more overwhelming. 

Through the MC, I think he has begun to see how much of an issue his hoarding is for me, but he still isn't really working on it in his IC. 

Geez, the more I write about it all, the more I can see how crazy it must look to anyone on the outside. 

By the way, I'm just figuring out how to do the responding with quotes. Any suggestions there are welcome.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Hoarding is just an insanity that I do not understand.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Hoarding is just an insanity that I do not understand.


My stbx among her many issues is a hoarder also. You can't believe the attachment to the "collections". In many cases it's a control issue. They have the power over the stuff. It's hard to explain but experiencing first hand the fights over broken knicknacks and piles of useless paper and such well its downright frightening to see the person they become defending there stuff. 

The pile of junk is a millions dollars to them. The junk doesn't let them down, it doesn't disagree, it doesn't leave....not unless they want it to leave. The collections of everything was a sore spot for years and you do eventually quit fighting or leave. Everything I or us had she had no trouble parting with but if it was "hers" it never left. The OM dumped her because she was throwing away everything he owned to make room for her stuff. He told me flat out she had all his stuff piled outside waiting for a dumpster one day and she was ranting how her stuff was way more important than his and she needed all the extra room. 

Do you feel if you told him everything about your EA he would leave or just hold it over your head? The power trip. His multiple affairs more than likely were a part of "his collection". One, five or 10 it was probably more about his obsessive compulsions an wanting to control things more than ever having any kind of meaningful relationship. 

While he may have not had one for years he controls the information. He keeps his power because it's "his" secrets.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

honcho said:


> My stbx among her many issues is a hoarder also. You can't believe the attachment to the "collections". In many cases it's a control issue. They have the power over the stuff. It's hard to explain but experiencing first hand the fights over broken knicknacks and piles of useless paper and such well its downright frightening to see the person they become defending there stuff.
> 
> The pile of junk is a millions dollars to them. The junk doesn't let them down, it doesn't disagree, it doesn't leave....not unless they want it to leave. The collections of everything was a sore spot for years and you do eventually quit fighting or leave. Everything I or us had she had no trouble parting with but if it was "hers" it never left. The OM dumped her because she was throwing away everything he owned to make room for her stuff. He told me flat out she had all his stuff piled outside waiting for a dumpster one day and she was ranting how her stuff was way more important than his and she needed all the extra room.
> 
> ...


Yes, it is all about the control and thank you for this response...someone who gets it. It's impossible to explain what it's like to live with a hoarder. It creates constant tension, even when you learn to ignore it out of sheer self preservation. It impacts your children and your social life. I stopped trying to entertain after a while because it was too difficult to get the house together. 
I have succeeded in keeping the main level and the kids room in some order, though his papers are in bags and boxes along the wall and in corners of the dining room. 
The worst part is in trying to get an OCD person to see that it is a problem. It's not to them, so it becomes YOUR problem. He was fine with the way things were and with himself. Now he is starting to get it because he's afraid I'm going to leave. But, he needs to change because he recognizes it's a problem, not because he thinks it will keep me in the house. 
As for telling him more about my EA, I don't trust that he will tell me the full truth, so I am not inclined to confess every little detail. I don't want that from him, I just want to know when it started exactly, how many women, and when it really ended. He knows that much about my own transgression, I think I deserve to know at least the same.
But, again, I don't think I'll ever get it out of him. So, I have to come to peace with the past somehow, whether I stay or not.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Leave him and take back your life


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

blahfridge said:


> As for telling him more about my EA, I don't trust that he will tell me the full truth, so I am not inclined to confess every little detail. I don't want that from him, I just want to know when it started exactly, how many women, and when it really ended. He knows that much about my own transgression, I think I deserve to know at least the same.
> But, again, I don't think I'll ever get it out of him. So, I have to come to peace with the past somehow, whether I stay or not.


That's kind of the ironic thing about this... that you need to know so that it makes you feel in control. Your ability to let go is what actually puts you in control. Believe me, I lived it. I NEEDED to know everything I could about my wife's affair(s) after we split up.

I needed HER to tell me, and if she didn't, then I'd find out myself, dammit, and I'd tell her what I found. It's about that moment in time where you don't feel in control, and you try to get some of it back. But it doesn't work. Letting it go is FAR better. You can control that.

Forget for a second that your husband has OCD (I also know all too well about that), and is a hoarder and a control freak. Those are excuses.

He's an *******, regardless of the reasons behind it. He's not a better ******* because he has mental issues. An ******* is an ******* is an *******. And if you want to be married to one, that's your prerogative.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

alexm said:


> That's kind of the ironic thing about this... that you need to know so that it makes you feel in control. Your ability to let go is what actually puts you in control. Believe me, I lived it. I NEEDED to know everything I could about my wife's affair(s) after we split up.
> 
> I needed HER to tell me, and if she didn't, then I'd find out myself, dammit, and I'd tell her what I found. It's about that moment in time where you don't feel in control, and you try to get some of it back. But it doesn't work. Letting it go is FAR better. You can control that.
> 
> ...


That made me laugh, thanks.  Yes, he was an ******* and continues to be one and maybe one of my problems is that I can't really see that. 

You are spot on about the control aspect. One of the many awful things that happen to you when your spouse cheats is that you lose control of the narrative of your life. For me, I can't look back now on past events now without thinking...that must have been when he was doing X or Y. 

The worst part for me is that it is now tied up with my memories of my beloved son. I am fairly certain he started cheating while I was pregnant and what a number that does to your head! My son just turned 17 a few weeks ago and try as I might, the thought kept creeping into my head that his father was out screwing another woman while I was home with two little girls and suffering through my sixth pregnancy, wondering if this one would be lost like two of the others were. 

Your advice to let it go as far as knowing exactly what happened is good, and I will try to hold onto that. I did take some control after he finally admitted to the five women by insisting on an in-house separation. I also told him that once he broke the marriage, he had no right anymore to tell me with whom I could or could not be friends. I also told him that he was free to have sex with whomever he wanted, that obviously, he felt deprived in that aspect of his life, so go for it. I still take satisfaction from the look on his face. Childish maybe, but it felt good and the sad thing is I meant it. 

The only reason he's ever given me for the cheating is that he wasn't getting enough sex from me. But, in order to justify it, I had to become a caricature, not someone who deserved empathy and understanding and respect. Then I turned around and did the same to him and that's what I hate the most sometimes, what his cheating did to me. But I can't let that be an excuse or I am no better than him in that regard. So I am trying to treat him with kindness and consideration, something with which everyone deserves. He is a good father and works hard to support his family. He is also a very caring friend. He's just so f-cked up with all his other problems. But that doesn't excuse his being an as-hole, now does it? :wink2:


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