# What constitutes an "Ex"?



## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

My H insists on both of us visiting a woman "not an ex" who he slept with 15 years ago, since we'll "be in the area." We get to hang out with her current lover, their new baby, and her kid from a previous relationship. She has 4 kids from 3 men, only one of whom she was ever married to. "She goes through men like water," brags my H, likes it's a cute thing. Yippee. 
I have posted earlier about his insistence on maintaining this long-distance friendship which nearly broke up our marriage early on (5 yr anniversary 3 months ago). They don't communicate frequently, but it seems very meaningful to my H.
Their affair occurred way back when she & her then husband rented my H's downstairs apt while she was pregnant; my H is a doc & helped her give birth at home in a very EMOTIONAL event, and afterward they ended up sleeping together for a brief time (I don't actually know how long) feeling "very connected." He told me he had never felt such an intense emotional bond with anyone. Yippee again. (The baby, now 15 yrs old, became his godchild.)(And duh, this woman divorced her H.)
Now we will be in the distant city where she lives and he can't believe I don't want to have her pick us up at the airport, drive us around to her several homes, and have us over for dinner. I said "That goes beyond what normal grownups do with their exes." 
He has become extremely hostile and is acting very judgmental toward me, which is unusual for him. He told me I am being extremely rude to refuse her wonderful invitation for all this hospitality & I am being unfair to him to disrupt an old friendship. 
He says that just sleeping with her for a short while, after a very EMOTIONAL bonding event (the birth) 15 years ago, does not mean she is an "ex." She is JUST A FRIEND. 
Well, I have met her on several occasions. And I have learned from reading this website that she qualifies as NOT A FRIEND OF MY MARRIAGE. She is all over him like a polyester suit. She acts like she owns him. And he gets all defensive about her,I am not allowed to "criticize" her or her inappropriate behavior. I feel sick to my stomach whenever I am around her which thankfully is very rare due to the distance. 
Anyway--he says she is not an ex ("it wasn't really a relationship") and so my reaction is completely out of line and reflects some jealousy issue "from my past." 
I remember being at a dinner with my H and her, and realizing there were 3 men and 2 women present (just me and her), and all 3 men had slept with HER. I felt so creeped out. 
I have explained this woman appears not to share my sense of "appropriate sexual boundaries, especially around other people's husbands." 
Again, he says it's all in my head.
What defines "ex-ness"?


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## curlysue321 (Jul 30, 2012)

She is an ex. Your husband is full of crap and I'm calling him on it. I would suggest a session or two of marriage counseling so you can address this and make him face the fact that asking him to spend time with he and his ex is inappropriate.


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## totamm (May 1, 2012)

She meets the definition of an ex.

However you're not asking the right question.

Is hubby's continued friendship with her in any way appropriate? Is he handling the situation properly and respecting your valid feelings?

No, no and no.

I wouldn't put up with the BS if I was you.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

He's now agreed to curtail the visit down to something simpler(due to my sticking up for myself & my feelings) and is angry that we can't get our "Free ride from the airport" and have to pay for a cab. 
I have no idea what the heck is going on. 
It's like he feels he has to cling to this for some good he is getting from it. Is it flattery? She makes him feel good when she does her kittenish fawning all over him? when he remembers that special intimacy? 
Now I'm gagging. 
I am thinking of not going on this trip at all just to avoid being in the city where he'll be thinking "the damn wife is keeping me from cultivating an important old friendship."
This is SO not good for our marriage. What makes someone reluctant to let go of whatever this is? Why do people hang on to these old things? Security? 
I feel like chopped liver around her, she totally horns in on him and crowds me out.... Yeah, maybe he loves that. 
He also once made the mistake of telling me "If it weren't for so-and-so, I wouldn't be the guy I am now, you wouldn't like me as much." What the ....???? 
No, I do not like this at all. Now I am seeing he arranged this trip BECAUSE he knew she was there. Oh, by the way, it turns out he had told her we would SPEND THE NIGHT THERE. Because that way we save on the hotel cost. I'm starting to feel traded for the cost of a cab ride and a night in a hotel.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

He just repeated to me that she's not an ex because it was so long ago that nobody cares about it anymore.


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## totamm (May 1, 2012)

questar1 said:


> He just repeated to me that she's not an ex because it was so long ago that nobody cares about it anymore.


You're a nobody?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

questar1 said:


> My H insists on both of us visiting a woman "not an ex" who he slept with 15 years ago, since we'll "be in the area." We get to hang out with her current lover, their new baby, and her kid from a previous relationship. She has 4 kids from 3 men, only one of whom she was ever married to. "She goes through men like water," brags my H, likes it's a cute thing. Yippee.
> I have posted earlier about his insistence on maintaining this long-distance friendship which nearly broke up our marriage early on (5 yr anniversary 3 months ago). They don't communicate frequently, but it seems very meaningful to my H.
> Their affair occurred way back when she & her then husband rented my H's downstairs apt while she was pregnant; my H is a doc & helped her give birth at home in a very EMOTIONAL event, and afterward they ended up sleeping together for a brief time (I don't actually know how long) feeling "very connected." He told me he had never felt such an intense emotional bond with anyone. Yippee again. (The baby, now 15 yrs old, became his godchild.)(And duh, this woman divorced her H.)
> Now we will be in the distant city where she lives and he can't believe I don't want to have her pick us up at the airport, drive us around to her several homes, and have us over for dinner. I said "That goes beyond what normal grownups do with their exes."
> ...


She is an EX. He is an idiot. Tell him this is unacceptable adn disrespectful to you and you want this relationship to end right now.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

questar1 said:


> He's now agreed to curtail the visit down to something simpler(due to my sticking up for myself & my feelings) and is angry that we can't get our "Free ride from the airport" and have to pay for a cab.
> I have no idea what the heck is going on.
> It's like he feels he has to cling to this for some good he is getting from it. Is it flattery? She makes him feel good when she does her kittenish fawning all over him? when he remembers that special intimacy?
> Now I'm gagging.
> ...


You need to go. This is not something to compromise on. He needs to go complete no contact with her. No negotiation at all. 

Cancel this trip for the two of you. Period go somewhere else.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

questar1 said:


> He just repeated to me that she's not an ex because it was so long ago that nobody cares about it anymore.


Do not discuss this with him. Tell him she is either no contact for veer from him or you are done. That you will not discuss this further. His obsession with her is bizarre. He must be having contact with her you are unaware of.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

questar1 said:


> He just repeated to me that she's not an ex because it was so long ago that nobody cares about it anymore.


He cares way too much. Enough to ruin his marriage over.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

questar1 said:


> "She goes through men like water," brags my H, likes it's a cute thing. ...Yippee.
> Red Flag: Unappropriate comment in your presence
> 
> his insistence on maintaining this long-distance friendship which nearly broke up our marriage early on (5 yr anniversary 3 months ago).
> ...


This is not about her being an ex yes or no.

He has an EA. 

He is at best blinded to his 2nd love situation. 

Which is you, btw.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

questar1 said:


> What defines "ex-ness"?


All of this garbage:


questar1 said:


> Their affair occurred way back when she & her then husband rented my H's downstairs apt while she was pregnant; my H is a doc & helped her give birth at home in a very EMOTIONAL event, and afterward they ended up sleeping together for a brief time (I don't actually know how long) feeling "very connected." He told me he had never felt such an intense emotional bond with anyone. Yippee again. (The baby, now 15 yrs old, became his godchild.)(And duh, this woman divorced her H.)
> 
> He has become extremely hostile and is acting very judgmental toward me, which is unusual for him. I am being unfair to him to disrupt an old friendship.
> 
> ...


Makes her an "ex." All of this makes her toxic to your marriage.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

You have received very good advise already, but here's my .02's

Perhaps he would enjoy a trip with you to visit one of your former lovers. 

Seriously, Jeez he is way out of line here. He had sex with her..that means she's an ex. And that UFB statement about never having such an intense emotional bond --- wow, he's an a$$.

If he goes to their city you must go with him, if for no other reason than to eff up their reunion. Put your foot down and suggest he read "Not Just Friends".


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

I looked over "Not Just Friends" & it's funny how a lot of it applies, but in my H's case it seems so weird that she is an OLD friend, not a new one. It's like he can hide behind the fact that they have known ea other for so many years.

I don't think that, as affairs go, this one is out-and-out dangerous to my marriage. I think it is just stupid. It is like a little fling hiding behind a b.s. story of "just being old friends." And it serves to titillate and flatter both of them. 

I have to decide if it's worth bothering about becz I doubt it will ever be anything more than this. It's an EA for sure but probably very limited. 

Maybe I just shouldn't let it bug me, and just humor him. My main concern is that when I am near her, I will smack her across the face. I am not joking.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

It's definitely worth bothering about! Haven't you heard the saying Nothing burns brighter than an old flame? 

The way your husband defends her..Red Flag. 
The way he describes their intense emotional connection..Red flag.
The fact he f^cked her when she was married.  Red flag.
He wants to spend time with her, sleep in her house, reminisce while you peacefully sleep....HA! 
The way she cozies up to him & gets between you..Huge Red Flag.

If you don't put your foot down and insist he stop ...and if you don't go....well he sees no problem sleeping at her house and hey he f^cked her right under her first husbands nose why not this guys too? 

Read some articles about boundaries, check MarriageBuilders they have some good ones to start with. He doesn't have boundaries with her, you are trying to protect the marriage. I bet he says you're trying to control him doesn't he?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

questar1 said:


> He just repeated to me that she's not an ex because it was so long ago that nobody cares about it anymore.


 Nobody? In addition to you, I bet that the husband that she was married to at the time that your husband was having sex with this other man's wife would think that the relationship that your husband had with her still mattered no matter how long ago it was. Look she is not just his "ex", their relationship was based on infidelity and cheating. They are both proven cheaters that have already shown disrespect for the boundaries of marraige. Why are you allowing him to have any contact with her at all?


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## Terry_CO (Oct 23, 2012)

Speaking as a guy I can only see one reason why he is doing this ....

It sounds like a clumsy attempt by him to spice up your relationship. He wants to present himself as being desirable by other women, namely this ex of his, and he is hoping you show more affection to him as a result.

Is everything good in your relationship in the sex department?


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Well, I agree with the others. This is a relationship to be discouraged strongly. I see two strategies which are possibles. I think you are best placed to judge which will work in your circumstances.

1. Tell H now that you want him to cut all links immediately. Cancel the trip.

2. Play a longer game. Allow the trip. Go along but do not let this woman a crack of an opportunity with your H. Be in his company at all times. Insist on staying in a hotel. Then make it as difficult as possible for him to see her again for at least the next twenty-five years.

Good luck


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Terry_CO said:


> Speaking as a guy I can only see one reason why he is doing this ....
> 
> It sounds like a clumsy attempt by him to spice up your relationship. He wants to present himself as being desirable by other women, namely this ex of his, and he is hoping you show more affection to him as a result.
> 
> Is everything good in your relationship in the sex department?


Thanks, your comment triggered some thinking. 

My H has done this with 2 other exes, one while we were engaged--he was still taking her out once a week "because it was less upsetting to her that way" after they broke up. It took intervention of a mutual friend to get him to stop dating the ex while engaged to me!

A second ex demanded a lunch date with my H and another mutual friend of mine. I was not allowed to go "unless the Ex gives you permission." Appalling! (He ended up cancelling the lunch date rather than "forcing" the ex to include me. Not a happy ending for anyone.)

Also, related, he insisted we show up at the house of other friends--SURPRISE!!--while visiting another city. They had no idea he expected us to spend the night there and hastily made up a bed for us. I was mortified with embarrassment. 

So maybe there is a larger pattern of insecurity here, of not letting go of old connections in general as if he somehow needed them.

He is now accusing me of getting between him and his "old friends" and it occurred to me: maybe he doesn't distinguish between those he has slept with adulterously and those who conveniently provide a free stay in another city.

He seems to think it's important to retain all these connections--i'm thinking insecurity, not infidelity now. 

Our sex life is great. He has demonstrated adequately that he is a dedicated monogamous person so the appearance of disrespecting boundaries is all the more weird & upsetting. Doesn't he get it?

As I say: APPEARANCE. I think he's insecure. He was 59 when we married. Maybe he is clinging to old friends from an old habit of wondering if he'll be left old and alone. 

Now it is my job to gently let him know that some old friendships are not just old friendships, but have boundaries & rules around them. Like this woman. I honestly think he's just being an idiot and doesn't see the diff betw staying at HER house and, say, the couple whose guestroom we crashed at a moment's notice. 

I mean, just the fact that he insists "she's not an EX...." --Well, let me tell you, SHE KNOWS WHAT SHE IS!!!


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

questar1 said:


> It's an EA for sure but probably very limited.


You could be right, but I made sure my wife understood it wasn't to be tolerated or we were done. 

Right now, maybe longer, she can't have a close male friend. 
There is a huge issue, as I told my wife, when you start excusing and defending another person to me. 

My wife and I can discuss why I have a female friend, I can defend WHY I have a female friend, she should be worried the minute I start defending the female friend and putting another woman above her feelings. 

See what I did there?


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## silentghost (Jan 28, 2013)

Put your foot down....YOU ARE NOT A SECOND CLASS DOORMAT!!!!
If he feels so strongly about this woman that your feelings dont count....then it's time to take a second look into your marriage.

Personally...if my husband was like yours... i would pack his bags for him and send him on his way. LIfe is too short to be stressed out over guys like him who find ex lovers more important than working on current marital relationships.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

> It's an EA for sure but probably very limited.





> It's cancer for sure but probably very limited.


Think of it this second way because it is a cancer to your marriage and it is likely terminal Early detection is the key to both of these.

But I even challenge this. While technically it may be an EA now, since they have already been physical you can look at this as a full blown affair.
They have had sex before in an unfaithful way I might add. That says much.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You could be right, but I made sure my wife understood it wasn't to be tolerated or we were done.
> 
> Right now, maybe longer, she can't have a close male friend.
> There is a huge issue, as I told my wife, when you start excusing and defending another person to me.
> ...


Yes, I do. Unfortunately he does not. I totally get it but the problem is I can't totally explain WHY and so he denies there is any meaning or logic to your point. 

He just told me this is the worst he has ever felt about our marriage because I am restricting him from continuing old and valued friendships. I am being dogmatic, "doctrinaire," and inflexible. 

I told him I used to do the hippie-thing, was much more open and less respectful of boundaries. But I learned from experience that the majority of adults took exception to a casual treatment of their relationship boundaries, and I took a step back. Even if I didn't think I was flirting, a friend's wife or girlfriend saw the threat in my behavior. 

So now I see that this woman has not matured to that point, and constantly crosses those same boundaries that other women taught me were very, very, VERY important unless you wanted to be stabbed to death in your sleep. 

He says it is a bunch of drama, that I need to relax, that this is largely meaningless, and, again, "nobody really cares, we're all just friends."

The implication being that I am being the weaker spirit here and caving in to common human drama, rather than "letting it go" and thinking for myself, as in, "what's the big deal, nobody's getting hurt here." Be cool, relax, hang out, don't worry.

Why is it that I have the impression the hurt is there, but invisible? not easily described or explained? Why DO we have boundaries? why does this women arouse in me all the concern I could ever have for the need for boundaries? She gives me the willies!!

He is making me question all of my previous learning about boundaries, and I am deeply perturbed. What's the point of marriage? He is too good to kick to the curb but I am unwilling to cross this line, this time. In my last marriage, I looked the other way and ended up married to a lying addict leading a parallel life that drained our bank accounts. This husband is not lying, but I would be lying if I looked the other way.

I am very sad and confused right now and am thinking I made a big mistake by thinking this monogamous, legal arrangement meant he had to give up his "old friends." Because he is refusing to.

I am the bad guy by "forcing" him to choose between me (marriage) and her (old friendship that he truly values). 

I can't win this. I feel I have already lost. 

I am very sad right now. I am not sure I want to stay married. I see why he doesn't want to lose that old friend connection. But I also see why he should move on and let it go. That means there is no answer. I find this very disturbing.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Aunt Ava said:


> Read some articles about boundaries, check MarriageBuilders they have some good ones to start with. He doesn't have boundaries with her, you are trying to protect the marriage. I bet he says you're trying to control him doesn't he?


OK, this gave me goosebumps. That's EXACTLY what he said tonight! How did you know?? And then he threw in a comment about how I make him turn off the water when he's brushing his teeth. Like that's the same thing somehow. :scratchhead:


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> I am the bad guy by "forcing" him to choose between me (marriage) and her (old *friendship* that he truly values).


*See HERE is the fault in his logic!* She is NOT an 'old friend'. She's an old fvck-buddy!

Friends DO things together. Friends share a common interest. Friends share common hobbies.

*Do THEY fit that criteria? NO!*

The only thing they did together was delivery a baby and fvck. That's it!

Common interest? Um, he was a DOCTOR she was Mrs. Joe Schmuck living in his RENTED basement. Pretty sure there was no intellectual parity there.

Common hobby? Nope, again, just the fvcking behind her husband's back.



> Why is it that I have the impression the hurt is there, but invisible? not easily described or explained?


 *Wow, *I* don't have any trouble explaining it.*

"Look, (hubby's name), she's the kind of woman who cheats on her husband. She's proven this (repeatedly?). If she doesn't respect her OWN marriages WHY IN THE WORLD would you expect her to respect OUR marriage? MY marriage? Hell, she doesn't even LIKE me and vice versa! She'd probably LOVE the chance to fvck you again just as a giant 'SCREW YOU' to me?

You don't see this? I thought you were smart?

And you, you're the kind of man who cheated with a married woman. That shows a lack of respect for marriage. Now that you're married to ME, why would I think that the opportunity to be with your old FVCK-BUDDY wouldn't make you two want to sneak around behind MY back and her new husband's back? You know...for old times' sake, for the excitement, for the opportunity for HER to stick it to me and prove that you CARE MORE about her feelings than you do about mine. You two did it BEFORE....you snuck around and cheated on her FIRST HUSBAND! So it's not like I'm making shyt up out of my head!

This is the 2nd (3rd? 4th? 5th?) conversation we've had about meeting up with your former fvck-buddy. And every time it ends up the same way. YOU CARE MORE about HER feelings (and not hurting them, or disappointing HER) than you do about MY feelings and not hurting me or disappointing me. WHY IS THAT? 

Are you trying to tell me I'm important to you and cherished by you? Because I sure as HELL don't feel that way! Your actions sure as HELL don't convey that!"

THAT is what *I* would tell your deluded Hubby if he was here! But, you're going to have to present that knowledge in whatever way YOU feel works best for your marriage! 

You need to SERIOUSLY consider *why* you're in this marriage. This thread explains that your former husband left you financially ruined...is THAT why you're hanging onto this marriage so tightly? You & your H have gone SEVERAL rounds just about this fvck-buddy alone! How many other rounds have you gone about other inappropriate relationships/behaviors/lack of boundaries? 

Only YOU can decide if it's worth working on this relationship, accepting it the way it is (insisting on condoms if you can't trust him), or walking away.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Wait, your husband is a doctor, delivered her baby, and then slept with her? You know that violates ethical standards, right? He could have lost his license for that. He should know that. He should be so ashamed and embarrassed by what he did. I'm curious what kind of doctor he is. He's not an OB/GYN, is he?

You've gotten good advice here, so I'm not going to repeat it. Good luck though, hopefully your husband will see that he's being an idiot.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

questar1 said:


> My H insists on both of us visiting a woman "not an ex" who he slept with 15 years ago, ....


I did't even read the rest of your post.

She is an ex whether he says so or not.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> "Look, (hubby's name), she's the kind of woman who cheats on her husband. She's proven this (repeatedly?). If she doesn't respect her OWN marriages WHY IN THE WORLD would you expect her to respect OUR marriage? MY marriage? Hell, she doesn't even LIKE me and vice versa! She'd probably LOVE the chance to fvck you again just as a giant 'SCREW YOU' to me?
> 
> You don't see this? I thought you were smart?
> 
> ...



OOooooo... that is good!

If I were the OP I'd simply rehearse this exactly word for word until it just rolled off my tongue and spew it all over my H when this came up again.

Then just walk the **** out.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Quester, I remember your earlier thread regarding your husband, this woman and delivering her baby.

I feel as if I have been in your situation (partner keeping up inappropriate relationships) but possibly not to to degree that you are.

I keep wondering if (some) men fantasize about that bad girl.... especially when she can manage to be brought into polite society. 

My exH showed inappropriate deference to a friend's wife and then later _*we*_ (but did my ex know beforehand?) learn that she was a mistress whose sugar daddy set her in a flat next door to my ex's friend. Someone told us that the (ex) sugar daddy was at the wedding and had even bought her dress. 

I came to TAM because my fiancé was carrying on an EA with another woman whom he tried to properly date before he met me who not only was dating another guy, but as my fiancé once told me (but doesn't like that it's mentioned again), her bf is better in bed than he is. *Come on, guys why would any man want to continue a friendship with a woman who tells you that?*

At some point, I just decided to be as ballsy as this woman. Since my fiancé kept his accounts opened, I snooped. Since he allowed papers to float around his flat. I looked. And I told him that I did so he could no longer do the "it's all in your mind routine."

My fiancé also admitted after a few conversations that he had chosen not to introduce us because he knew her behaviour would have been inappropriate around me. Having been through this before, I can say with confidence what probably would have happened. She probably would have manoeuvred to get me alone to tell me all the inappropriate things that my fiancé told her about me. and then my fiancé would have denied it all thinking / hoping that I just made it up.

Now that I have standing...ie, we are engaged..... I will never shrink away from good cat fight. Women like the one you're concerned about prey on women "who think that they are better than that." And as you can see, they get the upper hand.

My suggestion is to take this trip with your husband and be the front runner on it. To satisfy your husband, suggest that the 4 of you meet for dinner near to where she lives. Avoid to the extent possible either of you going to her house. And quite frankly, don't be afraid to let her know what your husband has said about her.

If refuses to let you take the lead, I would be as high maintenance as possible. Complain about the temperature in the house; everything about the accommodations; have some hotels near the house in mind (but never let your husband out of your sight....)

I really do believe that men who look to women for friendships, they are looking for aggressive take control women. I really shudder at the thought now if I had sat back and waited for my (future) fiance "to do the right thing by me."


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

questar1 said:


> My H insists on both of us visiting a woman "not an ex" who he slept with 15 years ago, since we'll "be in the area." We get to hang out with her current lover, their new baby, and her kid from a previous relationship. She has 4 kids from 3 men, only one of whom she was ever married to. "She goes through men like water," brags my H, likes it's a cute thing. Yippee.
> I have posted earlier about his insistence on maintaining this long-distance friendship which nearly broke up our marriage early on (5 yr anniversary 3 months ago). They don't communicate frequently, but it seems very meaningful to my H.
> Their affair occurred way back when she & her then husband rented my H's downstairs apt while she was pregnant; my H is a doc & helped her give birth at home in a very EMOTIONAL event, and afterward they ended up sleeping together for a brief time (I don't actually know how long) feeling "very connected." He told me he had never felt such an intense emotional bond with anyone. Yippee again. (The baby, now 15 yrs old, became his godchild.)(And duh, this woman divorced her H.)
> Now we will be in the distant city where she lives and he can't believe I don't want to have her pick us up at the airport, drive us around to her several homes, and have us over for dinner. I said "That goes beyond what normal grownups do with their exes."
> ...


For me what defines an ex is either or both of the following

1. Body parts entered or were entered into the other's body.
(yes that means if a bj was given in the back seat at a movie theater and nothing else, they're still an "ex")
2. There were emotional feelings established that were beyond platonic friendship from having a relationship.

Your husband meets BOTH criteria....she's DEFINITELY an ex.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

questar1 said:


> He just repeated to me that she's not an ex because it was so long ago that nobody cares about it anymore.


Oh Damn, you just saved me over $1,000 per month in child support. 

<---Runs off to talk to his "too long to call her ex-wife" about child support payments.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

That's what I like about TAM, it's so in-your-face. I feel kind of blasted.

I feel like I just got both barrels.... of what I have been saying to the H. I have been very blunt almost word for word along the lines of most of the preceding posts. 

Hearing it from other people shoves the penny even farther down the slot so I now really, really get what's going on (and also that I'm not the crazy one for having these wild feelings of injustice and this-can't-be-for-real).

YES!!! My H is very attracted to pushy women (I am intellectually pushy but otherwise more a peacemaker-type). And he describes this woman as basically castrating men who then beg her to take them back. I do not have a hard time imagining her in B&D get-up with a whip in her hand!

(Same with the other ex and the weird lunch-date thing. He once said he deferred to her because he was more afraid of her anger than he was of mine! She has been clinically diagnosed with BPD--another big fat clue.)

And YES, back to the present case, he admits that their affair 15 yrs ago was the ONE TIME in his career that he violated doctor/patient boundaries--add that to the pile of ethical violations in the whole scene around this woman. She pushes men over the line.

So, that is a turn-on for SOME guys, isn't it? Being urged to violate rules? being treated ruthlessly, and aggressively? being told what to do? getting whipped?

O-kay.Now I see what I'm up against.
Time to strap on my own steel huevos. 
It's showtime. 

PS: Yes this is the same woman I posted about in a panic last year, who before giving birth to this last baby asked my H to come deliver the kid. She didn't ask me along but my H said "It's okay if you come too." Like hell. Like I'm "allowed" to come watch a replay of how their affair started in the first place 15 yrs ago. Some people really, really have no boundaries whatsoever.

I TOTALLY GET WHAT THIS WOMAN IS ABOUT NOW. POWER OVER MEN THROUGH SEXUAL AGGRESSION. She picks out sweet, kind co-dependent sorts like my H who wouldn't hurt a fly. All the more reason to stand my ground. But since I can't compete in the unethical aggression department, I am going to prevail through sheer, supportive wifeliness. Watch me.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> Quester, I remember your earlier thread regarding your husband, this woman and delivering her baby.
> 
> I feel as if I have been in your situation (partner keeping up inappropriate relationships) but possibly not to to degree that you are.
> 
> ...


I'm including this whole quote because I can't thank you enough for sharing your story. I needed this in my face so bad, to hear that this happens and this is what it is. I can relate to so much of it and I just wanted to tell you how grateful I am that you shared it. I knew it struck a nerve in me because I had to read it 3x and then I felt like crying. Too close to home.

There is a part of me that refuses to accept that women do this to each other. But I think maybe they don't see it that way. They are just getting along & surviving in the world. I see this woman (in my case) as a parasite, a very successful one. Her last ex--she threw him out when she got pregnant w/ this one's baby--was a gazillionaire. He took incredible care of her for several years. Private plane and everything. Yet she's just a hippie gal doing her thing. She doesn't even wear makeup, she's that earth-mother, let it all hang out type. It is SO powerful, whatever it is she's doing, that i can sense it. When I met her I felt as if there were waves of "threat" shooting out from her and I started to shake. I really did get sick and shaky. She went on and on about the pillows on my H's bed and weren't they SO uncomfortable? No normal person says that to someone's wife. a true friend just shuts up about that past stuff. So she is not a real friend of his. (I felt my face turning red.)
I know some men who keep women on a string. They collect them. Well, this gal collects men and my H is on her string. I don't like that. 
I like your idea of being blunt with her about what my H has said about her, although I don't think it will bother her in the least. I think she is too drunk with power to care what her victims mutter behind her back. She still prevails and she knows it. I look forward to saying over dinner, in front of my H and her current lover, "My H says you go through men like water." 
You are also correct in saying she gets the upper hand; I feel so tiny and cowed in her presence. She never stops moving and talking and making pronouncements about everyone and everything, you can hardly get a word in edgewise. She's totally in charge. 
Then you've got my H, like your bf, actually admiring her for being unkind to him. I can just imagine her replying to me that at least she taught my H a thing or two in bed, I should be grateful she did that before she "flushed" him down the toilet too. And then she would just laugh and move on to the next topic that pleased her.
How can my H not be in some kind of EA with her? This is exactly the type of woman who goes through life having affairs. Funny how we other women can sense this on sight, while our men deny it. A man almost can't be around this chick without automatically starting an affair with her. That's who she is. 
You really hit a nerve by mentioning aggressive women. That's my H's past, totally. 
Also the bit about the thrill of bringing these women into polite society? well my H actually has said that in me he finally has a woman in his life he is not embarrassed to take to social events. 
Your story really helps me pull the pieces together, thank you so much for sharing. Now I know I need to be strong and smart, but not just another aggressive, crazy woman in my H's life. I'm the one he chose to marry. I don't have to be mean.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Well here I am kinda talking to myself again about this but I don't know where else to put it.
I just re-read my older thread about this ex of his, and then I saw an even earlier one of mine, and voila, I saw that this has been the same problem since the very beginning. NOTHING HAS CHANGED! IT'S ALL THERE! 
Why am I still talking about it?
Therefore I have to admit I am just full of ****. 
I am trying to fix something that can't be fixed and I am trying to blame him for being a way that he has been all along. It just happens to be an aspect of my spouse that I do not care for and makes me very uncomfortable. 
But I married it.
I don't know what I am going to do. He has no intention of changing or of honoring my "need" at least to be heard about these awful feelings. He shuts me up and defends all his old exes.

He has decided he will go stay w/ her and her family while we are visiting in that city even though I have said I will not go due to my discomfort.
And that is that. 
There is something about these old lingering relationships that is very important to him. I do not think they are harmful except when he chooses them over me, and that is rare because they are all long-distance. So for a short time every year, a couple of times a year, I get to feel like chopped liver, second fiddle, etc. 
I think I just have to suck this up. We have even had MC about this a year ago. I almost forgot that part. Because the MC backed me up, and H sd he understood, but he has refused to change.

I am going to go finish the tequila now.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Well, you COULD always go with H and be a total bytch to ex-gf; I mean REALLY! What is the WORST that could happen? 

Your H would be embarrassed and not want to bring you around her again! YIPPEE! 
She would be angry and pissed off? Yippee!

When she talks about how uncomfortable your H's pillows are say, "My god, woman, don't you have any class? I think you're embarrassing your husband!" OR you could say, "Oh, God no! They stunk something TERRIBLE and I had to replace them all! Nothing would freshen them up!"

EVERY TIME she's inappropriate say shyt like, "Are you DRUNK?" OR "My god, do YOU ever shut up?" OR "Please, STOP! Take a breath...give our ears a rest!" in a VERY condescending manner!

I think it would be hilarious! Just stay calm, cool, collected. Know that YOU'VE got your man and she is a pathetic user!

If YOU don't want to go, I'd LOVE TO! I think it's the most fun I'd have all year!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> *Well, you COULD always go with H and be a total bytch to ex-gf; I mean REALLY! What is the WORST that could happen? *
> 
> Your H would be embarrassed and not want to bring you around her again! YIPPEE!
> She would be angry and pissed off? Yippee!
> ...


Low level b!tchiness, that is......


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Here's something to think about the next time he brings up the control and limiting argument:


questar1 said:


> *My H insists *on both of us visiting a woman "not an ex" who he slept with 15 years ago, since we'll "be in the area."





> I have posted earlier about *his insistence *on maintaining this long-distance friendship .





> He told me *I am being extremely rude *to refuse her wonderful invitation for all this hospitality & I am being unfair to him to disrupt an old friendship.





> *I am not allowed to "criticize" *her or her inappropriate behavior.





> Anyway--he says she is not an ex ("it wasn't really a relationship") and so *my reaction is completely out of line and reflects some jealousy issue "from my past.*"





> *Again, he says it's all in my head.*


Your husband is a hypocrite because he is trying to FORCE you into a situation you find uncomfortable. That's control, more so than you trying to voice your opinion about an "ex." Heck, he is trying to control your emotions and say you have a deep rooted issue. There's a ton of blame shifting in there as well. I wouldn't hang around with ANYONE who screwed my wife, regardless of if it was 15 years ago. I mean that's just weird to me. 
Our commonality is we had our penises in the same woman?
How does that conversation go?
We talk about sports, kids, employment and her favorite sex position? WTH

If this was family, minus sex of course, I'd understand. I am cordial to one of my wife's brothers I do not like at all. As the other poster put it, this is a F-Buddy no loyalty.

He's so adamant, about maintaining this relationship, I'd make him get a paternity test of the godson.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I was hoping that at least a few guys might take a stab to answer the bolded question in my post no. 31.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

> I came to TAM because my fiancé was carrying on an EA with another woman whom he tried to properly date before he met me who not only was dating another guy, but as my fiancé once told me (but doesn't like that it's mentioned again), her bf is better in bed than he is. Come on, guys why would any man want to continue a friendship with a woman who tells you that?


Well, I didn't want to derail questar's thread with your problem. The real question is why do you believe that crap answer? You have been gaslighted IMO.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Well, I didn't want to derail questar's thread with your problem. The real question is why do you believe that crap answer? You have been gaslighted IMO.


There's no question in that post that I put to my fiancé.

However, I do accept that there are some behaviours that you may never get a satisfactory answer from the doer of that behavior. However, I am here due to the wealth of insight that is available here.

I have chosen to stay with my fiancé because looking forward, he is doing everything right.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Update. H has agreed we will meet only for dinner & not at her house. He seems okay with this but only after saying all that bad stuff to me earlier and I think he still resents the "inconvenience."

I have explicitly told him that I feel she is a threat to relationships, mine, his, and apparently several other people's that she's broken up. He ignores this and I agree that it's that attraction to "bad girls." Or bossy *****es. I have no intentions of pretending to be a ***** that I'm not. I'll be polite but won't pull any punches that come my way. I also have no illusions that I could ever do or say anything that would alter my H's deep affection for this woman. Although he says he is glad for the distance because she's "crazy." 

Whatever.

I would like to say I appreciate the clear references to "gaslighting." That stuff is subtle and evil. I got taken in by it till I read the responses here, so thanks. I am definitely going to confront that, if nothing else. Really, everyone else involved (the H, the ex) has made this thing out to be "my" problem. Is it? I'm nuts? Or are the lights doing funny things around here?


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## Patswife (Feb 22, 2013)

Look, she is an EX, no question about it. He slept with her in the past, that is an EX-lover ! Men ( sorry I don;t want to offend), sometimes want to feel that "conection" - it's like a need to check up on, see where the other person is in their life. I see at least two things - #1 your H is CHEAP !!!!!! and #2 - did anyone stop to think why he wants you to go with ? Maybe he is showing off what he has?! Do yourself a favor, call and get a nice hotel, invite what's her name over for a nice dinner in a neutral place , pay for the meal, let them "catch up", then take him back to the hotel and remind him of why you two are together in the first place ! If this turns into an issue, then start looking for the problem, give him and yourself a chance for heavens sake.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> There's no question in that post that I put to my fiancé.


I asked you why you believed that statement. I never said you asked him this question. I didn't ask you or cast any aspersions about your relationship. 

To be clear, I believe he told you that to minimize (gaslight) the EA and she probably never said that to him at all.
It is in the same realm as:
Oh She is fat!
Oh She isn't my type!
Oh she said I am horrible in bed!
So, to answer your question fully, most men wouldn't take that bedroom performance abuse. 

On the off chance he WAS one of the few, he may have remained friends so he could prove her assessment wrong.

That is my opinion. I haven't said you were dumb to stay together, that you were wrong or you should quit him. I haven't read your other thread, just the post in this one.

I'm done as this is questar's thread.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I asked you why you believed that statement. I never said you asked him this question. I didn't ask you or cast any aspersions about your relationship.
> 
> To be clear, I believe he told you that to minimize (gaslight) the EA and she probably never said that to him at all.
> It is in the same realm as:
> ...


thanks for your comments. 

I hope that questar doesn't think that this is a thread jack..... she is having to deal with a husband who --by his words -- wants to continue a friendship with a skank. 

So I think I am not the only one who is dealing with an SO who wants to continue a relationship with a "bad girl."

We women, particularly us good girls, who pride ourselves on playing it straight and being open and honest, are completely blindsided with the charades that goes on with these inappropriate relationships.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

questar1 said:


> Update. H has agreed we will meet only for dinner & not at her house. He seems okay with this but only after saying all that bad stuff to me earlier and I think he still resents the "inconvenience."


 You'll go to dinner and be berated for your beliefs so, be prepared for these people to gang up on you. The fact you are going, IMO, is ridiculous because you are compromising to his idiocy. Yes, marriage is about compromise, but that only applies to certain issues. Meeting another woman or man, your spouse had sex with in the past, is not a compromise situation unless, they have a biological child together.




> if nothing else. Really, everyone else involved (the H, the ex) has made this thing out to be "my" problem. Is it? I'm nuts? Or are the lights doing funny things around here?


You guys need counseling, especially your husband, he has TERRIBLE boundary issues. I had to tell my wife about revealing our serious marital discussions to others.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You'll go to dinner and be berated for your beliefs so, be prepared for these people to gang up on you. The fact you are going, IMO, is ridiculous because you are compromising to his idiocy. Yes, marriage is about compromise, but that only applies to certain issues. Meeting another woman or man, your spouse had sex with in the past, is not a compromise situation unless, they have a biological child together.
> 
> 
> 
> You guys need counseling, especially your husband, he has TERRIBLE boundary issues. I had to tell my wife about revealing our serious marital discussions to others.


Yup. 
Even the MC agreed that the "Ex" stuff had to go. (I say "even" because otherwise MC was kind of a joke.)
This problem has occurred with 3 diff exes since the beginning 7 years ago. I almost left him 3 years ago because of the incredible damage that resulted from this ridiculousness, but with a different ex (BPD #1).
He can't seem to stop it, or change, or even remember why. As if he has a huge blind spot. 
He doesn't recall the anger and tears and scary threats, how scared he got that I would leave after telling me he would leave because I was being "unreasonable" about the ex-stuff.
He goes right back to not noticing those boundaries. 
I am beginning to think that this is something I will merely control/tolerate as best I can while knowing that it will never go away. It's like a disability on his part. Probably deeply rooted in old insecurities and fears of losing connections. Scared of being alone if he loses a friend. These are NOT healthy connections with trusted old friends; these ladies are effing NUTS for the most part. NOT people you would want around your children. 

I am going to feel like the only grownup at the table.

If it weren't for this website I suspect I would be certifiable by now. This was making me crazy. Now I know I'm pretty much okay, but am venturing into the land of flying monkeys.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

questar1 said:


> Yup.
> Even the MC agreed that the "Ex" stuff had to go. (I say "even" because otherwise MC was kind of a joke.)
> This problem has occurred with 3 diff exes since the beginning 7 years ago. I almost left him 3 years ago because of the incredible damage that resulted from this ridiculousness, but with a different ex (BPD #1).
> He can't seem to stop it, or change, or even remember why. As if he has a huge blind spot.
> ...


I'm starting to wonder if my exH is like your husband. He remarried as soon as the ink was dry on our divorce. (We had a long separation so his 2nd wife was not cause of our split). 

but exH really didn't appear to understand how inappropriate his behavior was around some women.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> thanks for your comments.
> 
> I hope that questar doesn't think that this is a thread jack..... she is having to deal with a husband who --by his words -- wants to continue a friendship with a skank.
> 
> ...


I totally get the parallels. In fact it is a relief, as I sd earlier, to hear your version of the same b.s. 
Hey, if it didn't work for the most part, these gals wouldn't do that ****, right? 
Sometimes I think if i could do life over I'd manipulate the hell out of guys. 
But then again... maybe not. For now, I'm stuck being me, and I'm pretty much a straight shooter. So I spend a lot of time shaking my head in wonder at how other folks tick. But hey. Whatever works.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

This guy just doesn't get it and then he ridicules your beliefs after EAs have happened multiple times. I say this not to be mean, but you might want to contemplate Divorce. Contrary to my posts, I wish all marriages could reconcile, but sometimes people are just to idiotic to be in a healthy relationship.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This guy just doesn't get it and then he ridicules your beliefs after EAs have happened multiple times. I say this not to be mean, but you might want to contemplate Divorce. Contrary to my posts, I wish all marriages could reconcile, but sometimes people are just to idiotic to be in a healthy relationship.


Divorce is serious stuff. 
I think that decision depends on my perspective & patience. And how I demonstrate (authentically) that his behavior puts the whole relationship at risk, and not because I'm crazy. 

I once said to him that I felt like slugging BPD #1 when he didn't rise to my defense (she is VERY offensive & threatening as BPD's can be), and his response was "Go for it!" As if I am expected to defend myself while he stands by and watches a girlfight. 

So, I think his stupidity in this whole arena is based on his being kind of a wimp, a.k.a. "peacemaker." There are times when you have to stand up for what you believe even if it makes you unpopular. And he backs down.

I will eventually decide if that's important, since it looks like this is simply reality-- and no matter how much I complain, it ain't changing, from what I can tell.

I think that when we complain over & over again about the same thing, it's a form of denial, and I have been living in denial that this is the way he is because it's not what i wanted. It's what I got, though, and I will just have to decide what my priorities are. So I guess for now I get to shut up about all this: It is what it is. I just happen not to like it.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Will somebody please tell me if I'm wrong, but I am beginning to think my H is a perfect example of being co-dependent? I think he needs to be needed, so he seeks out these damaged women and doesn't let the relationships wholly end. He insisted on continuing to take his most-recent ex out to lunch the whole time we were engaged because "it's mean to just cut her off." He assumed he had to put a band-aid on HER pain--she wasn't grownup enough to deal with it? 

Sometimes I get the eery feeling he expects me to become an alcoholic. I never drank till we met and now he insists on buying me lots of diff types of alcohol. His last few exes were all alcoholics. I myself have no abuse issues or addictions. However, when we met, I was hiding in a safe house from a bad marriage. He bailed me out. Now I am wondering if my being "damaged" or in danger was really important to the initial attraction?

I think I am treading into important territory here, can anyone guide me in how to deal with this? Is there any hope? Do I have to keep letting him drag around these needy people? Am I at risk of having to remain "needy" in order to stay with him? (He had me move across the country to be with him and now I am not working--for the first time in years--I am no longer self-supporting but DEPENDENT on him. Hmmmm....)


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

OP, I can't understand why you've allowed this emotional affair (because that's what it is) to continue for so long. 

Of course this woman is an ex. She's your H's ex lover, with whom he shared a deep connection, and it is totally inappropriate and insensitive of him to think that it's OK for him to remain in contact with her, let alone expect his W to socialize with her, too.

All it takes is for this woman to find herself at a loose end BF wise, and it's my guess she'd have no compunction in re-igniting the flames with your H.

Time to put your foot down, OP. Big time.

Edited to add: I've just read your post mentioning co-dependency (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera.../68808-what-constitutes-ex-4.html#post1508146), and your observations regarding your H's apparent history of rescuing damsels in distress is an interesting one... It might be useful to explore this further, OP?


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

questar1 said:


> Will somebody please tell me if I'm wrong, but I am beginning to think my H is a perfect example of being co-dependent? I think he needs to be needed, so he seeks out these damaged women and doesn't let the relationships wholly end. He insisted on continuing to take his most-recent ex out to lunch the whole time we were engaged because "it's mean to just cut her off." He assumed he had to put a band-aid on HER pain--she wasn't grownup enough to deal with it?
> 
> Sometimes I get the eery feeling he expects me to become an alcoholic. I never drank till we met and now he insists on buying me lots of diff types of alcohol. His last few exes were all alcoholics. I myself have no abuse issues or addictions. However, when we met, I was hiding in a safe house from a bad marriage. He bailed me out. Now I am wondering if my being "damaged" or in danger was really important to the initial attraction?
> 
> I think I am treading into important territory here, can anyone guide me in how to deal with this? Is there any hope? Do I have to keep letting him drag around these needy people? Am I at risk of having to remain "needy" in order to stay with him? (He had me move across the country to be with him and now I am not working--for the first time in years--I am no longer self-supporting but DEPENDENT on him. Hmmmm....)


This sounds like the core of the situation. That's why he is getting defensive and nasty. It could be indeed his identity is that of the saviour, more important than his role as a husband. For him that's an objective no-brainer. You 'should' be understanding because he is your saviour too...

Maybe something like this can give you some clues to search on:
Codependence and the Dependent Personality Disorder


I don't know anything about how to deal with this, my natural reaction would be that you establish for yourself how you want to live, how your relations would look like, how it feels, how it is visualized. Then work on getting that. With him or without him.

Success.


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## curlysue321 (Jul 30, 2012)

Find an old boyfriend on fb and reconnect and then plan a trip and tag hubby along


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

This woman needs to be out of his life for good! Absolutely no contact whatsoever.

If my husband felt this way towards another woman I would end our marriage, at best give him an ultimatum(if there was no affair prior). That is what I would do. I need to be the only woman my husband wants to see or hang out with. 

He's playing with fire and rekindling their spark they once had together. It's wrong.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> Probably deeply rooted in old insecurities and fears of losing connections.





> I think he needs to be needed, so he seeks out these damaged women and doesn't let the relationships wholly end. He insisted on continuing to take his most-recent ex out to lunch the whole time we were engaged because "it's mean to just cut her off." He assumed he had to put a band-aid on HER pain--she wasn't grownup enough to deal with it?
> 
> Sometimes I get the eery feeling he expects me to become an alcoholic. I never drank till we met and now he insists on buying me lots of diff types of alcohol. His last few exes were all alcoholics. I myself have no abuse issues or addictions. However, when we met, I was hiding in a safe house from a bad marriage. He bailed me out. Now I am wondering if my being "damaged" or in danger was really important to the initial attraction?
> 
> I think I am treading into important territory here, can anyone guide me in how to deal with this? Is there any hope? Do I have to keep letting him drag around these needy people? Am I at risk of having to remain "needy" in order to stay with him? (He had me move across the country to be with him and now I am not working--for the first time in years--I am no longer self-supporting but DEPENDENT on him. Hmmmm....)


Holy moses, questar! THIS *IS* the crux of the matter! Never saw ANY of this in your original 'come down and deliver my baby because it's such a deeply moving emotional experience' thread!

See_Listen_Love has it right! I think your h has a 'savior' complex.

He's a DOCTOR
All his exes are screwed-up messes
He 'rescued' you from a battered women's shelter
You've started drinking ONLY since you've been with him (he plys you with new types of alcohol, all his exes have been alcoholics)
Look at the first quote here. It's not that he fears losing connection with them, it's that he HAS to be 'THE GOOD GUY', the one who rescues them from their screwed-up life. He has to stay in touch to ENSURE that, if they're ever in trouble again, he'll be available to fill the role of 'THE GOOD GUY', the one wo rescues them from their screwed-up life.

It wouldn't surprise ANYONE to find out that your h's mother was undoubtedly an alcoholic! He probably learned his caretaking there!


You need to cut off the liquor; you lived for years without it, I'd advise doing it again.
Get into IC and see if you have successfully dealt with your last relationship in a healthy manner. See if you are dealing with this current situation in a healthy manner. Get an OBJECTIVE opinion.
The answers you learn THERE will help you see whether you should remain in this marriage or not. Whether you should seek a job (as an outlet, or as a fall-back position) or not.
Good luck, questar, I think IC is DEFINITELY your next move. And whether or not you have a session BEFORE this trip, just keep telling yourself THROUGHOUT THE DINNER, I can discuss all this with my therapist, I can discuss all this with my therapist, I can discuss all this with my therapist...to help you make it through what will undoubtedly be an "uncomfortable" dinner!


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Well...it's all starting to make sense now
I read some other threads here about saviors and KISA's (Knights in Shining Armor). I am happy to say I appear to be the least demented or needy of all H's rescue jobs, but--there I was, in need of rescue, wasn't I? Now I see why his exes have tried to cling to him, too. He'll take care of them forever. 
So, come to think of it--this ex makes him feel loved & needed because he saved her life (that's the way that story goes--the "difficult birth" thing, plus he helped her ($$) get out of her marriage). She's not an "ex" in his mind--she's someone he saved. They're forever bonded. Gag.
I'm in over my head here. I don't think I have the means to pry him loose from this mechanism. And somehow I fit into it as well. My former marriage to an addict qualified me for heroic rescue I suppose. And makes me classically co-dependent too. My, what a party.
Yeah, IC it is. .... the tequila has run out. 
PS: His mom was a teetotaler because her father was a violent alcoholic. She suffered from anxiety attacks. So does my H. 

:scratchhead: I wonder if there's any such thing as normal?


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Possible his mom was MARRIED to an alcoholic (it would be what she 'knew' from childhood, therefore comfortable!)

I don't know if ANYONE is 'normal', but after reading a different thread, I am feeling a whole lot better about the direction in which MY family screwed me up!

Good luck, questar! (Hope you weren't offended by my 'be a bytch' post...I meant it jokingly! But, with this new info, it would NOT be a good idea! It would just ramp him up to "rescue" ex-gf from YOU.)


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

questar1 said:


> Well...it's all starting to make sense now
> I read some other threads here about saviors and KISA's (Knights in Shining Armor). I am happy to say I appear to be the least demented or needy of all H's rescue jobs, but--there I was, in need of rescue, wasn't I? Now I see why his exes have tried to cling to him, too. He'll take care of them forever.
> So, come to think of it--this ex makes him feel loved & needed because he saved her life (that's the way that story goes--the "difficult birth" thing, plus he helped her ($$) get out of her marriage). She's not an "ex" in his mind--she's someone he saved. They're forever bonded. Gag.
> I'm in over my head here. *I don't think I have the means to pry him loose from this mechanism. And somehow I fit into it as well. *My former marriage to an addict qualified me for heroic rescue I suppose. And makes me classically co-dependent too. My, what a party.
> ...


I do think that men like having a stable relationship to depend on. This is probably what you mean to him. So to move on, would pull the carpet from under him.

When I was getting ready to set the terms to my fiancé, that is, lose the "friend" or lose me, the girlfriend (in the complete sense of the meaning), I chuckled at the thought that he might do that "you can't tell me how to live my life routine" and thinking that what he would get for that would be a woman simply interested in yanking his chain.

Maybe he was contemplating what that friendship meant to him before we had our discussion, but fortunately there was no hesitation in telling me what we wanted .

As they say here quite often and I agree, sometimes the only way to save your relationship / marriage is to be able to walk away from it.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Good luck, questar! (Hope you weren't offended by my 'be a bytch' post...I meant it jokingly! But, with this new info, it would NOT be a good idea! It would just ramp him up to "rescue" ex-gf from YOU.)


:iagree:
Yeah...I had the same ah-ha about that... anything coming from me that sounded or looked threatening or critical toward the exGF brought out the rescuer in my H--defending HER. I was so confused when I kept feeling like an attacker, somehow. Yes, if I had gotten snarky w/ her, he would have put his arm around her...right in front of me, he would have, if he perceived me as being the meanie.

Let me tell you, it is shocking & creepy to have your H defending an exGF from you as if she were the poor helpless thing being attacked. It is so WRONG. 

What is marriage about if not each person having the other's back? 

So for him to defend an ex from his own wife shows something has clearly gone awry! 

It is tantamount to abandoning the marriage... like it doesn't exist... I am just another bad thing out there attacking the helpless damsel... 

He did the same thing with the other exes, excusing their persistence in our life by explaining their sad childhoods of abuse, etc., etc. One time he yelled at me and said, "Let's get one thing straight. We need to agree on this NOW. Neither of us has permission ever, ever, ever to criticize the other's ex. In fact you are not allowed to talk about any of mine at all!" I was freaked out. I think that it can be a healthy part of separating from a former relationship to just talk about what didn't work. It's a boundary thing, putting the old lovers into the past and clearing space for the new and expressing lessons learned. And he got crazy-defensive. (A rule which by the way he broke; he often retaliates against me by being mean about my ex-H.)

So, again, nothing new here. It's just that now I can SEE it.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> This sounds like the core of the situation. That's why he is getting defensive and nasty. It could be indeed his identity is that of the saviour, more important than his role as a husband. For him that's an objective no-brainer. You 'should' be understanding because he is your saviour too...


:iagree:

It's the old Drama Triangle...

Rescuers who are thwarted in their need to rescue usually then take up either the role of victim ("You're being unfair to me") or persecutor ("I will do what I want to!"). This will leave his role of rescuer vacant until there's enough drama for him to then move back into the role he's most comfortable with. He does this by getting angry with his wife (persecutor), hurts her feelings (victim), then he is able to go back to doing what he knows best (rescuer). This dynamic can only end when one of the players decides to stop playing.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Oh crap
I think this just turned into what a friend calls a cluster****.
Due to a mixup with tickets, the H just left without me! (NO: This is NOT his fault; it's complicated and he was extremely crestfallen, for real--he hates traveling alone.)
He is expecting me on the same flight tomorrow to catch up. Meanwhile he will be arriving alone, and no doubt (put money on this?) will contact the ex w/ a change in plans: "It is now okay to pick me up at the airport, W will never know." (He was very upset at not being allowed to have her pick us up to save the cab fare.)
I mean, why not, right?
I just found out I can catch an earlier flight today and "surprise" him by showing up approx the same time he does--or even a slightly later one around dinner time... but then will I discover he is out to dinner with the ex? in a car with her on route to the hotel? (Where I do not suspect him of planning a further rendezvous, though--just getting a ride.)
I am afraid to find out, to spend the extra $$$ to head that off if necessary. 
Or does this dilemma mean I have bought into the b.s. drama of the whole thing? What will I do if I find he's being picked up by her? or out to dinner with her? or at her house? 
Or maybe none of the above and he will say, "Why did you spend extra $$ just to get here earlier?"
Just the fact that this is troubling me is a problem. I'm not supposed to have to wonder or worry or care. 
And what I'm discovering is that I AM FURIOUS. That he might do all that. And that it matters. 
I feel like **** right now. 
Do not like drama. And here it is. Chasing some guy by hastily buying a plane ticket to keep him from seeing another woman... this isn't my life, it can't be.
WHY DO I EVEN CARE??? WHY DOES THIS MATTER? DOES IT MATTER??
**** this drama:crazy:


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Questar, IMO, you just have to stop playing the game with him. Until you do, it's going to be as crazy-making as trying to catch your own tail.

No W should have to worry about this sort of thing, but your H appears oblivious because he's too busy creating one drama after another. This isn't going to change until something changes, and that has to be you stepping off the merry-go-round.

If you really have to go on this trip (and personally, I'd refuse to go - but that's just me), I'd take whichever flight suits you and stop worrying about what your H and the ex are/aren't doing in your absence, because whatever that is you have absolutely no control over it right now.

When you return home, however, you really do need to get your H into MC and put an end to this nonsense.

I'm sorry you're going through this...


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Fortunately I declined to go further with this panic. What happens, happens. 
I took a nap. :sleeping:

I've had my say and H has the freedom to act as he sees fit. 
No drama! I'm just not up to it.
I'm having a nice day off and will arrive fresh as a daisy tomorrow. 

Somewhere in all this poop there's a pony. In fact, I see progress. I now know my feelings aren't out of line & I don't have to back down (haven't yet). And the H just called to admit he thinks he was a bit hasty in pushing the let's-all-get-together plan with the ex. He didn't realize how insensitive it seemed. 

Pony.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Sounds like you're making progress, Questar. Try to enjoy your trip, then work on this being the last that includes the ex.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It's the old Drama Triangle...
> 
> Rescuers who are thwarted in their need to rescue usually then take up either the role of victim ("You're being unfair to me") or persecutor ("I will do what I want to!"). This will leave his role of rescuer vacant until there's enough drama for him to then move back into the role he's most comfortable with. He does this by getting angry with his wife (persecutor), hurts her feelings (victim), then he is able to go back to doing what he knows best (rescuer). This dynamic can only end when one of the players decides to stop playing.


I am going to look into this. Obviously I play a part.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

questar1 said:


> I am going to look into this. Obviously I play a part.


When we're involved in someone else's drama, we always play a part, unfortunately  The roles aren't static, and can change frequently.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Since I couldn't make it on the flight today, H arrived alone and then went over to ex's house & had dinner w/ the family, as I expected he would. Alone in a big city, why not? Of course he didn't tell me. I called and found out.
I feel kind of neutral about it. 
I asked what he was doing and he sd "Just having a snack." Then a moment later he mentioned WHERE he was (at her house) and the fact that they had just finished dinner. So, he's feeling uneasy about my sensitivity, obviously, and walking on eggshells. 
He sounded like he was scared he was in trouble and trying to be extra nice to me. Gentle voice & all that. Trying not to hurt anyone's feelings. I could hear everyone's voice in the background so he was in an awkward spot. 
My earlier conclusion was that there is not much to be done about this. It's probably worse if I fuss and assume there's more going on than there is. I just don't like her, and I don't like him seeing her, whether or not she is with her current live-in lover and a few of her random kids and he claims she's JUST A FRIEND. Which for now is probably kinda true since she's got this lover & a bunch of kids around and is putting on a mommy-at-home show for everyone. 
However, now there is no need to go to dinner with them at all, is there, as per earlier plans? 
Yippee.
Whatever.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

For now I would suggest you try to have a nice time, maybe discuss with him you want the both of you to work on some issues in the relation. 

Keep it cool, don't sound needy or irrational.

But when you get back, try to work on the books 'Not just friends' and 'No more mr. Nice Guy'. 

I think you both need to implement things from these books. 'Guy'=Girl also in this aspect.

Also keep a silent eye on the possibility of an EA/PA, just to be sure. If you can rule that out things would as good as can be for now.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

See_Listen_Love said:


> For now I would suggest you try to have a nice time, maybe discuss with him you want the both of you to work on some issues in the relation.
> 
> Keep it cool, don't sound needy or irrational.
> 
> ...


Good advice. 
I'm now absolutely determined to take the high road on this. 
After all, I'm the one who's married to the guy. I trust him totally (really, I do--it's HER I don't trust, and shouldn't). This is a matter of subjective discomfort & disapproval of someone's behavior & lifestyle. I can tone that down. 

My guess is that the more I'm accepting of my H's quirks, etc., the more he will feel safe confiding in me and will be more willing to consider my point of view. 

I am suffering in part from whatever thats called, retroactive jealousy or something? where you're jealous of a past relationship that you can't do anything about? Pretty useless but also very painful. 

Well, I'm bigger than that. I've had my good cry & gnashing of teeth and now I can put on the big-girl panties. 

The big mistake would be expecting other people to change to suit me. In this case my strength in dealing with this is finding how to align my thinking and deal squarely with reality--not fantasies, hopes, assumptions, or expectations. To call things as I see them & not make stuff up because of my fears. 

Thanks for the extensive reality check here. I'm not crazy--this really has been some heavy ****--but I can do better. Although I never have smacked the lady as I wanted to.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Just an update. 
Our dinner-date with the ex & her family is tonight at a so far unspecified location. 
H keeps bringing up "how are we going to get there." I keep saying we don't know where we're going yet, maybe we can walk or take a bus. But he keeps saying, "I guess we'll take a cab." Like it's something I'm supposed to react to. Like, it's my fault we will have to pay extra.
I am beginning to think he has a thing about taxis but this baffles me. It is so secondary to everything. 
Then after about the 8th go-round of that weird conversation he throws in "...unless we get them to come pick us up." I immediately picture the ex, her BF, their new baby, and possibly one or two of her teenage kids, in a station wagon or something, and stuffing us in the back. BTW my daughter has come along on this trip with us. (Long story. She is 15 yrs old.)
This picture is hysterical, a bunch of semi-related people, some very uncomfortable with each other, stuffed into some family vehicle. 
Now I think my H is simply from another planet. I am beginning to think he has a social disorder, that's why he doesn't perceive these situations normally. 
Should I laugh, cry, or call a psychiatrist?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Ask him directly, does he have a problem with using a taxi? Is is the cost? Do you two need to go over the budget for this trip? And also add, since this is something that he wants to do, you will approve the extra cost because there will be times when he needs to be generous with you and so on..........

I know what you mean when peoepl try to present something as your fault.......


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

questar1 said:


> Just an update.
> Our dinner-date with the ex & her family is tonight at a so far unspecified location.
> H keeps bringing up "how are we going to get there." I keep saying we don't know where we're going yet, maybe we can walk or take a bus. But he keeps saying, "I guess we'll take a cab." Like it's something I'm supposed to react to. Like, it's my fault we will have to pay extra.
> I am beginning to think he has a thing about taxis but this baffles me. It is so secondary to everything.
> ...


Well, no, honey! They'd bring two vehicles, of course! Your husband would ride with her, and likely he baby at least. And you would ride with her boyfriend....He has an aversion to buses, and taxis... here's a thought: rent a car of your own, so you aren't dependent on anyone for a ride.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

:banghead:


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

questar1 said:


> :banghead:


 Did I guess right?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Questar, just enjoy the food and the change of scenario for the rest of your trip - secure in the knowledge that this is going to be the very last time you're going to allow yourself to be manipulated into this sort of thing.

I really do believe that your H is probably going to have to hear this from a third party (preferably a MC), but the ex and others like her have to go.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Had dinner.
1. The ex was MUCH calmer than 1 1/2 yrs ago, probably due to having an 8 month old infant. ACtually I think she's exhausted
2. I saw how everything in her life is consistent w/ a personality that would do exactly what she did w/ my H. I don't take it as personally now as a flaw in my H or a threat to him. It's not even consistent with him. It's VERY consistent w/ her and probably nearly meaningless because of that. For me sex is a big deal, not so much for some people, that's what makes us all different right??

Although I felt a bit on the spot, I chose not get all huggy with her the way she expects w/ everyone. I am not a huggy person, why should I allow it if I'm not comfortable? If you ask me, getting all huggy leads to events in people's lives that they might regret later. Although hugging itself is a nice thing when appropriate if that's what you're into.

There was still an edge of "we all share something you do not." Even though everyone tries to pretend I'm included. I'm not. My daughter got upset when the ex had my H eat a piece of her birthday cake out of her hand--well, she was bouncing a baby with the other hand, the piece of cake fell apart, and it just happened. But I found it interesting that it was my teenage daughter who said "That's just wrong, mom. He shouldn't eat out of anyone's hand but yours." AGain, it was consistent with the whole way she (exGF) lives which is pretty out there without rules. But my kid was right. I can stick to MY rules, too. Which are: Don't turn your back on women without rules esp if your H is a nice guy.

I am left feeling like a wet blanket, turning down the opportunity to spend the day at their lovely cabin in this area of the world. My H sd it was fine not to go, he felt kinda crazy around the ex, her BF, and their infant. But I think if I were not along on the trip he would for sure go along with their plans. Just because he goes along with stuff--just as he did all those years ago. He went along with it. The ex? She's the kind of person who doesn't like to take No for an answer and before you know it you're doing what she wants. 

I think one of the biggest probs I read about on TAM is when people don't stick to their convictions or boundaries or honor their misgivings. 

So anyway I survived. Thanks all.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

questar1 said:


> Just an update.
> Our dinner-date with the ex & her family is tonight at a so far unspecified location.
> *H keeps bringing up "how are we going to get there." I keep saying we don't know where we're going yet, maybe we can walk or take a bus. But he keeps saying, "I guess we'll take a cab." Like it's something I'm supposed to react to.* Like, it's my fault we will have to pay extra.
> I am beginning to think he has a thing about taxis but this baffles me. It is so secondary to everything.
> ...


Well, this is actually a round you win, he is needy and keeps talking. You keep cool. You keep him off balance. Good.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

questar1 said:


> Had dinner.
> 1. The ex was MUCH calmer than 1 1/2 yrs ago, probably due to having an 8 month old infant. ACtually I think she's exhausted
> 2. I saw how everything in her life is consistent w/ a personality that would do exactly what she did w/ my H. I don't take it as personally now as a flaw in my H or a threat to him. It's not even consistent with him. It's VERY consistent w/ her and probably nearly meaningless because of that. For me sex is a big deal, not so much for some people, that's what makes us all different right??
> 
> ...


1 You do great in having these observations, and keeping your own self intact while you do that. Bravo.

2 Your daughter is right, and it's great you have a second person to make that observation. Talk open with him later on the issue. 

'Not just friends' has to be brought in relation with this incident to him. He has to acknowledge he is (with possibly the best intentions), having inappropriate boundaries and not enough respect for you.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> There was still an edge of "we all share something you do not."
> 
> Even though everyone tries to pretend I'm included. I'm not.


Which is true. The ex has slept with both of the men in the group, and your H has slept with both of the women. That creates a bond that neither you nor the ex's new partner share, and it skews the dynamics.



> My daughter got upset when the ex had my H eat a piece of her birthday cake out of her hand--well, she was bouncing a baby with the other hand, the piece of cake fell apart, and it just happened. But I found it interesting that it was my teenage daughter who said "That's just wrong, mom. He shouldn't eat out of anyone's hand but yours."


Ridiculously inappropriate, and it makes one wonder how they would behave if you and your daughter aren't present.

Again, Questar - MC really has to be high on your agenda, now, to prevent this sort of nonsense ever happening again, and I'd use this cake eating episode (which even made your 15 year old uncomfortable) as the last straw.

Well done you for surviving the trip!


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

questar1 said:


> Since I couldn't make it on the flight today, H arrived alone and then went over to ex's house & had dinner w/ the family, as I expected he would. Alone in a big city, why not? Of course he didn't tell me. I called and found out.
> I feel kind of neutral about it.
> I asked what he was doing and he sd "Just having a snack." Then a moment later he mentioned WHERE he was (at her house) and the fact that they had just finished dinner. So, he's feeling uneasy about my sensitivity, obviously, and walking on eggshells.
> He sounded like he was scared he was in trouble and trying to be extra nice to me. Gentle voice & all that. Trying not to hurt anyone's feelings. I could hear everyone's voice in the background so he was in an awkward spot.
> ...


I would never be able to accept this. No way no how. This is very unacceptable and most likely a deal breaker for me. There is absolutely no need for dinner dates!!!

Now he's planning another meeting? This is disrespecting you in a very big way.

My husband and I made an agreement that neither of us would have any causal friendships of the opposite sex. This even includes phone chats and emails. Friendship with exes would end my marriage whether it's either of us. My husband knows how I feel and respects this. I've been a BS in the past.

Personally, I would strongly suggest putting a stop to this. Your H's behavior is absolutely unacceptable.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Well, this is actually a round you win, he is needy and keeps talking. You keep cool. You keep him off balance. Good.


I did kinda win! thanks!! I scouted out public transportation & we took trains & buses! Then my H bragged to everyone at dinner how I figured out how to get around a strange city. This made me think he's really insecure, that's why he wanted to depend on the ex & family (the only people he knew). Now he knows he can depend on me. Definitely a win. :smthumbup:


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

questar1 said:


> Had dinner.
> 1. The ex was MUCH calmer than 1 1/2 yrs ago, probably due to having an 8 month old infant. ACtually I think she's exhausted
> 2. I saw how everything in her life is consistent w/ a personality that would do exactly what she did w/ my H. I don't take it as personally now as a flaw in my H or a threat to him. It's not even consistent with him. It's VERY consistent w/ her and probably nearly meaningless because of that. For me sex is a big deal, not so much for some people, that's what makes us all different right??
> 
> ...


Sorry, if your daughter picked up on it, time for an ultimatum.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Sorry, if your daughter picked up on it, time for an ultimatum.


EVERYBODY picks up on this stuff the H does. His lack of boundaries is appalling. 

All the evidence points to the fact that he's an idiot, not a cheater, though. 

The problem being that it gives people the wrong idea--they don't realize he's "just being nice" and I end up in these situations with exes-who-aren't-exed. 

I'm seeing a family counselor in a few days. The last MC kept telling me that as long as we "felt connected," the details didn't matter. Let me tell you, details can kill a marriage. Nice theory, bad practice. 

In the end, what look like little things to one spouse can be really big things to the other. 

This is a small thing to him and a big thing to me. I want boundaries. BIG boundaries. Not small ones. 

"Other than that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the show?" heh heh
I plan to stay married.... this ain't a deal-breaker--YET. It's very close!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

This is so wrong on so many levels.

The bottom line is that you and he have very different boundaries. 

He sees no inappropriate in what he does, you do. That makes for fundamental differences.

You say he has been this way with many of his exes (several, 3?). I guess I am not surprised that he continues to be this way. That old adage of "When people show you who they are, believe them."


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

You have to do what's best for you, but I've seen to many "it pointed this way" to ever believe it is ever that simple.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> This is so wrong on so many levels.
> 
> The bottom line is that you and he have very different boundaries.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are more right than you know, and here's the story.

When we got engaged, my H had a reputation in our community for--how to say this--going thru a lot of relationships. 

And one of his exes that I knew sd "Good luck, he has a girl in every port." 

At first I thought this was all wrong and in fact he explained it to me.

What I found was that the H does not consider these women "exes" but "friends forever." This created a lot of confusion in the community because apparently some of these women thought that meant it wasn't really over which probably confused each new GF. Also it gave him the reputation of seeing more than one GF at a time, which he told me he wasn't doing, people just said that because he remained friends with all of them. 

H told me it is rude to just cut people off. 

Another aspect was that he would stay with a woman even if he knew she was not "the one," because he preferred having a partner rather than breaking up, and later on the women found out he had not been serious all along, just kind of hanging on for no good reason. So there were some angry exes in the community too. 

Back then, I did not fully take in the possible consequences of this on our marriage, because i figured "well, now he is getting married, and THAT will be totally different." 

I have discovered that it pushes my buttons. 

I have thought there was something wrong with me. 

Is there a name for this habit of his? I'm thinking, "denial." Or, "keeping the door open." Also, "disrespecting one's SO." 

Also, I am curious, is it always bad to stay friends with an ex? I have looked thru threads here but they mostly focus on bad outcomes. Is it possible for people to safely be friends? How? 

I told him once that he could have the exes call ME if they wanted to socialize. He agreed and then forgot. Oh well. 

PS During our recent travels when speaking to my H I did not refer to the ex by her name, only as "your ex." I felt that was important to emphasize.


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