# Is it cheating when...



## hurtandc0nfused (Mar 2, 2012)

I am curious what everyone thinks about this scenario - My wife has an infatuation with a woman with whom she works - this other woman works at a different location than my wife, but they still see each other a couple of times a week. They occasionally text as well. 

I was looking at my wife's phone today and noticed several text messages from a friend where they were discussing this infatuation and whether or not my wife should do anything about it or go on a date with this other woman. 

My question is this - what is everyone's thoughts on whether or not just thinking about going on a date with this other woman is considered cheating on me. She does not know that I am aware of her text messages. We have discussed her thoughts on other women and how she is only attracted to other women at the moment. We are seeing an MC to see if we can work through this, but it seems to me that she no longer wants to work on the marriage if she is considering going on a date or seeing this other woman anywhere other than at work. 

Thoughts?


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## tm84 (Jul 24, 2011)

In a marriage, there should be no considering "dating" anyone outside of the marriage. Either she's in it with you or not. At the very least, it seems that there is an EA happening that might soon turn physical. 

It seems that your marriage is in a very vulnerable place. You need to consider giving her an ultimatum about trying to work on your marriage or dissolving it so that you can move on and possibly find someone who wants to be with YOU.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

hurtandc0nfused said:


> My question is this - what is everyone's thoughts on whether or not just thinking about going on a date with this other woman is considered cheating on me.


Technically, no. Theoretically, an unqualified YES.



hurtandc0nfused said:


> she is only attracted to other women at the moment.


"...at the moment." So she says. Doesn't make it gospel truth. Through hanging out with my gay cousin over the years, I've run into my fair share of women who left their husbands to pursue the lesbian lifestyle. I'm not judging, just observing. 



hurtandc0nfused said:


> it seems to me that she no longer wants to work on the marriage if she is considering going on a date or seeing this other woman anywhere other than at work.


I believe your instincts are correct. Going on a date, whether with a man or a woman, pretty much gives the clear signal that your wife is interested in a single lifestyle; whether it be temporary or permanent. At this point I would say, no, your wife is not interested in working on the marriage.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

No matter what the gender is or the sexual preference, cheating is cheating!

And that is whether the relationship is an emotional, physical, or a sexual one. In any event, it's taking those personal elements outside the scope of the marriage, where they should morally be prevalent.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

She's cheating.


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## Voronin (Mar 10, 2012)

I feel bad for you.

It's good that you have an idea of what is going on.

You know the situation best, so if you have an intuition on how best to proceed, you could float it here, just to see it in writing, or to get feedback.


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

Yes it's cheating. Ask your self if you would "condone" it if it was a man from her work?...

Same should apply. 
j


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Hell yes she's cheating on you.

She's not attracted to you and she wants to date someone else. Cheating is not putting a penis in a married vagina. Cheating is going outside of your marriage for fulfillment, and that's what she's doing.

Either nip it in the bud, NC with the other woman allowed, or start divorce proceedings, you are at defcon 1! Physical affair is imminent!


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## Lydia (Sep 4, 2011)

Yes, that's cheating.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

She is cheating you out of a emotional connection. She is also cheating you out of a respectful relationship.

So ya she's cheating.

Soon she will be cheating you out of a physical connection, or has that already happened?


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## hurtandc0nfused (Mar 2, 2012)

The physical part of the relationship stopped awhile ago. The emotional side of the relationship stopped long before that. I think that we have both been unhappy for some time, but lacked the ability (or willpower) to actually discuss it. 

If we go into more detail about the physical part of the relationship, I always thought that things would get better. We have not actually made "love" together for many years. We have had sex together many times, but it seems to go in waves, where she will stop being interested in it for months at a time. 

She claims to not have had an "O" by manual means in months nor does she desire one now. She says that she does not want to lie to me anymore and that is why she told me - dropped a bomb on me is more like it - 2 weeks ago when she stated that she loves me but is not in-love with me. 

She has stated many times that she wants to try and "work it out" with me to see if things change for the better. The only thing that would make it better in my mind is that she start truly working on our marriage instead of trying to see about these "other" feelings she has. 

Seems to me that she is in it for herself and not trying to help the marriage at all. The problem with this entire scenario is that I think we still have a connection, and that if she would just get her head out of her a$$, we could get back to the way things once were, only better. We have been talking more and as I stated in the original post, we are going to an MC. But those sessions are weeks apart. During which, she is still texting other friends asking about the OW. 

I am just not sure how to proceed.

Thanks for all of your posts. Please keep them coming as I find them extremely insightful.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Inappropriate Behavior -- check

Unfaithful -- check

Cheating -- gray area but all things considered check


So this is an EX lover of hers. She should be otally NC with her or that is unfaithful / cheating.


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## dazed/confused (Jan 18, 2012)

Yep!!! Cheating it is. Unless you are my wife, then it's just friends. Grrr
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

In my opinion that is cheating because it is still going out side the marriage. 

I have seen this verything with friends of mine. The husband let the wife start seeing another woman and then bam! The husband came second and the girlfriend got all the best of his wife and all her free time. Their marriage ended a few months later. Same sex does not make it different cheating is cheating. An EA now will end up a PA later and ruin your relationship

Oh and she went back to dating men and I hear she is getting married again.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

hurtandc0nfused said:


> She says that she does not want to lie to me anymore and that is why she told me - dropped a bomb on me is more like it - 2 weeks ago when she stated that she loves me but is not in-love with me.
> 
> She has stated many times that she wants to try and "work it out" with me to see if things change for the better. The only thing that would make it better in my mind is that she start truly working on our marriage instead of trying to see about these "other" feelings she has.
> 
> Seems to me that she is in it for herself and not trying to help the marriage at all. The problem with this entire scenario is that I think we still have a connection, and that if she would just get her head out of her a$$, we could get back to the way things once were, only better. We have been talking more and as I stated in the original post, we are going to an MC. But those sessions are weeks apart. During which, she is still texting other friends asking about the OW.


Move the thread to CWI forum...

Women don't say ILYBNILWY (I love you but not in love with you) until they meet someone else. In her case, it's another woman.

You're going to do no right until this EA is over. She's going to be confused, want space, need to clear her head, be unsure of your relationship or what she wants, until this EA is over. She's wishy-washy because she's trying to reconcile in her brain being a good person, or having an affair/leaving her husband for another person.

I feel for you, and there are hundreds of us on these forums who have gone through your path. There are specific things you can do to end this EA. If you appease and give in to her wishy-washy talk, then she'll stay confused and either end up screwing around with this chick or someone else. Women in these states can do unimaginable things, take it from me (and my story is tame compared to some others I've seen here).

What you must do is:

1. Achieve self-respect immediately. Observe your relationship as an outsider, not as yourself. How would you counsel someone who was in your relationship advice? I like to say WWBD (What would Brad Pitt do?)? Not because he's hot but because the guy has self-respect. Would Brad be cool if he was dating your wife and she told him ILYBNILWY, and then secretly starting having an EA with another chick and wanted to start dating her? NO! He'd sack up and tell her to get committed or hit the road.

2. Define, communicate, and enforce boundaries. This is something that "nice guys" ie doormats, have a hard time doing. If something is making you uncomfortable, it is crossing a boundary. You need to make it explicitly clear what those boundaries are, mutually agree on them, and then make sure she is following through.

3. Be willing to terminate the marriage. If you go into this situation with "divorce is not an option", then your wife is going to walk all over you. She needs to know that you know that you can do better, and will walk away if she continues on her path. If your always going to pine over her, she has no reason to stay faithful. If she knows you'll walk away, then she knows she must work to making you stay.

Finally, after you have done the above, here is my final advice:

4. If she's not willing to end contact with this woman, you need to escalate the situation immediately. The tried and true response is to write her a letter. Let her know that she is either going to commit to your marriage 100%, or she's going to leave the house and you're going to start divorce proceedings immediately. Do not give her a lot of time to think about it (24 hours is enough). If she doesn't give you the commitment, and follow through with it, hand her the Divorce papers.

This is a twofold attack, first, if she had any delusions that she could screw another chick while getting financed by you, that delusion is over. Second, she will have to understand that her actions will cause a divorce. This will either snap them into reality and screw their head on straight OR; save you months and possibly years of physical and emotional effort that will be wasted because she's not interested in being married.

Here's a link to a forum post about women's infidelity that you'll probably see familiarities too.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/38920-women-s-infidelity-book.html

The best part of the book is here:



> Did you interview anyone who made it through this?
> 
> Yes, I did. I interviewed two men who handled themselves
> much differently than most of the men I talked to over the years.
> ...


What these men did was essentially a practical application of what you'll find in Divorce Busters, His Needs Her Needs, or Love Must Be Tough. When your partner finds someone else and they are contemplating an affair, the last thing you want to do is start turning into their personal needs slave. It fuels the notion that they'll continue to get support from you and provides an unrealistic avenue for them to have an affair.

Not sure of your financial situation, but you want your wife to be at the point where if she wants to cheat on you because she loves this woman so much, she is going to have to do it with no financial or emotional support from you. Let this other woman help around the house, watch the kids, mow her lawn, pay for her groceries, etc etc. All the stuff you're currently doing, the other woman will have to provide.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

You will get alot of advice here, but I will say this. My inlaws are extemely "Googable" both do very well and currently the husband is having a affair. Similar situation he likes this women, not sure what to do, or how he feels, goes on day trips, etc. The wife has caught him, gps'd him, etc and says:

"I know what I should do!! I can't I still love him. I look at him and say Where the hell is my husband and who is this high school minded 40yr old in his place?"

She is hoping it's phase and he's just going through a midlife crisis. In her mind she says "I hope 10 years from now we'll look back and he'll say "What the hell was I thinking I was a idiot huh" and all will be okay"

Granted she is really hot and has been on magazines etc could easily leave and get with some seriously wealthy people, but she is waiting it out just doing her thing. Waiting to see if this younger by 20 years fling dissipates and the girl drops him.

I say all this to say everyone handles this differently. Best of luck focus on you, talk, communicate, but focus on YOU first.


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## hurtandc0nfused (Mar 2, 2012)

I have considered the prospect of divorce, but I am not so sure that is the answer at this point. I am definitely ready to pull that card if things do not improve in a manner that I would find promising. There are 3 kids involved as well which only complicates matters. 

We continue to talk, more openly than we have in the past 10 years of marriage, and things seem to be at least in a holding pattern at the moment. I have not investigated any further whether the EA is indeed moving forward. I will know more in the next few days as I continue to search out information. She understands where I am coming from and where I need to see improvement or the marriage would be dissolved. 

I understand where the comments are coming from where I need to be ready to pull the D card. I am not at all shy about doing that, but I am not going to throw in the towel just because we are having a rough patch in our marriage. She may not have her head screwed on completely at the moment, but I am willing to work at things to get where I want to be. 

She made a comment recently which strikes a chord with me. She said that her mind would not have drifted off to this OW if she was being taken care of emotionally at home. If I am being honest with myself, I have not been as honest as possible with her. I have not been completely happy with the marriage over the last few years. I have not spoken with her from my heart and truly explained my feelings. The communication issue in the marriage has been a huge issue that we had not addressed until recently. 

I am not saying that this is an excuse to have an EA or PA, but it is definitely a two way street that I am willing to work on. At this point, it seems as though she is willing to work on it as well.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Yes cheating.

One of the best responses to cheating is exposure: make having the affair costly and socially hurtful for both affair partners.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smith9800 (Mar 7, 2012)

Definitely, she is cheating on you. It doesn't matter that she is going to date a woman, after all cheating is cheating. From now, you should be aware and talk to her before getting late.......


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

hurtandc0nfused said:


> I have considered the prospect of divorce, but I am not so sure that is the answer at this point. I am definitely ready to pull that card if things do not improve in a manner that I would find promising. There are 3 kids involved as well which only complicates matters.
> 
> We continue to talk, more openly than we have in the past 10 years of marriage, and things seem to be at least in a holding pattern at the moment. I have not investigated any further whether the EA is indeed moving forward. I will know more in the next few days as I continue to search out information. She understands where I am coming from and where I need to see improvement or the marriage would be dissolved.
> 
> ...


Completely understand what she said, but don't make the mistake and take the blame. She is HAVING an EA. She isn't moving forward with one, she is already in it. Her head will not be screwed on straight while she still has another person on her mind.

Commit to meeting her emotional needs. Commit to being a better husband. Show her in your daily actions that you can step up to the plate. But do not allow it to continue.

By allowing her to continue communication with this woman, you tacitly approve of the affair. It is severe boundary crossing in a marriage. Would she allow you to go on day-dates with another woman that you were contemplating "dating"?

Again, many of us have already been in your shoes, we are telling you what happens when you don't take a hard stance on this kind of thing. You'll live in limbo land for weeks and months slowly watching your worst fears come true. The only way to save these relationships is to be willing to end it.

That doesn't mean you walk up and say, "I want a divorce, cheating sl*t!" It means you let her know you want to be a good husband, you're willing to work on it and give it a 100% full stop. You want a happy healthy marriage and you can do it if she is willing. If she's not interested in committing to that 100%, then you wish her the best of luck.

Paint her a picture of a man who is going somewhere, who is going to have a good life. You want her to come, she's free to tag along, but if she isn't on board, she's going to miss out.

Read the book Love Must Be Tough. It's a good take on why "staying and waiting for things to get better" is an approach that doesn't work.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

Shaggy said:


> Yes cheating.
> 
> One of the best responses to cheating is exposure: make having the affair costly and socially hurtful for both affair partners.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stupidest advice on planet earth unless you have exhausted every tool at your disposal first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

OhGeesh said:


> Stupidest advice on planet earth unless you have exhausted every tool at your disposal first.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wouldn't go that far. But it should be used in conjunction with other tools (180) and not as a first line of action. In this case, he hasn't even discussed it or set clear boundaries yet. He hasn't asked her to stop communicating with OW.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

OhGeesh said:


> Stupidest advice on planet earth unless you have exhausted every tool at your disposal first.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yet recently there was a guy on her who's wife had suddenly decided she was gay and was leaving him for her AP gf which was her instructor at a gym.

He exposed the affair, especially at the APs workplace where she had done this previously with married women and was on warning not to pull it again.

His wife ended the affair and reconciled with him.


If he hadn't stood up, handed exposed her would be getting a divorce instead of in R.

So it's not stupid advice and if used effectively can end things,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hurtandc0nfused (Mar 2, 2012)

I wanted to provide an update on this topic to the readers and those that were so kind to respond. 

Our communication has been good over the last couple of weeks and so I thought it might be time to actually confront the W about the EA. We talked last night and I explained what it meant to me that she still spent time with the OW, including this past weekend at a work conference where she went to lunch with the OW. 

I explained that her feelings, thoughts, and emotions were not focused on me, rather on the OW. She still struggles with what it means to have a one way EA - the OW was not reciprocal in her feelings, at least expressed. But I pointed out that she was thinking about the OW constantly. This meant she was not thinking about me or our family. I explained how it made me feel to have this burden of the OW hanging over my head, like I was not good enough for her. If she truly wanted to try and work on us and our marriage, then she could start by showing me that she cared enough to actually end the contact with the OW. 

She was obviously very upset about the topic, but agreed that she would no longer have any contact with the OW outside of work, which is only very rarely. She agreed no more texts, phone calls or emails. 

To be honest I was a little surprised that she gave up the contact so easily, so it will be interesting to see how the next few weeks are around the house. It is a step in the right direction. And that is what I am hopeful for at this moment. It was also a huge weight lifted off of my shoulders. I felt a sense of relief when she agreed. I was almost in a state of giddiness last night after our talk. 

I went to bed earlier than she did, but we had another brief discussion when she finally came to bed an hour later. I explained my current feelings and that I felt a sense of relief at having discussed it with her and positive about the outcome. She realized how much the topic had hurt to bring up, but she still is not sure how it was an affair. She is having trouble grasping the concept of an EA. 

Any suggestions on ways to discuss it with the W to explain what it means when someone is emotionally attached to another person?

Thanks for all of the great comments. I appreciate it and hopefully others in similar situations will as well.


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