# Should A Cheater Tell His/Her Spouse ?



## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

There's a conversation about this in "Did i cheat on him thread", and i got surprised by the reason from the "should not tell" camp. One said that it is a not good idea for a woman to confess an affair, unless she is sure the man is mature enough to be able to hear it. One worried because BS might not willing to let go (and marriage is about forgiving each other), one said that the only one motivating factor to confess and that is to receive forgiveness.

Shouldn't honesty, respect and equal partnership be the main reasons ?
Is hiding an ended affair a noble lie ?
What is the mature way to handle confession of affair ?
Even if it's a drunken ONS, do you think cheater should confess ?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Woulda. Coulda, Shoulda. We can debate the morality endlessly, but the reality is that the vast majority never confess - and the vast majority are never found out. Most of that vast majority would probably even agree that - morally - it would be best to confess, yet don't.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I think every cheater should tell their spouse, but I also recognize that many BS's don't want to know. So I am going to cop out and say that in MY marriage confession is non negotiable (it has to happen) but for other people? They can decide for themselves.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Following up my argument in the other thread, those who are against it what would be the reason not to? What makes it noble.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I wonder if confessing more often leads to reconciliation than discovery. I wonder if confessing occurs more often when the cheater is going to leave anyway. Is there ANY tangible benefit to the cheater to confess? Without some expectation of a better outcome through confessing, where is the motivation? (Especially when the odds are good that they'll get away with it.)


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

I think the cheater should confess because they are engaging in Marital Fraud, and a kind of fraud which is worse than even what Bernard Madoff did, he stole money cheaters steal your life.

And while it is true that most cheaters get away with it in the sense that nothing is ever proven, I think much much more often the marriage is further damaged, they end up in separate beds, kissing ceases, vague distrust is felt, etc. I don't think there are many affairs without consequences.

Tamat


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> I wonder if confessing more often leads to reconciliation than discovery. I wonder if confessing occurs more often when the cheater is going to leave anyway. Is there ANY tangible benefit to the cheater to confess? Without some expectation of a better outcome through confessing, where is the motivation? (Especially when the odds are good that they'll get away with it.)


Every part of that paragraph is basically just reinforcing the selfishness and ultimate brokenness of the WS and their thinking. The benefit is for the BS to make an informed decision. Besides that once someone has cheated on a marriage it's quite disingenuous in my mind to now suddenly be concerned about what is the benefit for the marriage. Talk about hypocrisy, the WS didn't give a **** about the marriage when they were cheating, yet NOW they care?

Besides that the vow was to honor and protect your spouse not the marriage. Your spouse has a right to know, you are not protecting them by letting them live with a cheater uninformed. 

Here is my post on the other thread that expands on this.



> Here in lies the difference. You spouse is not your child. You never made a commitment with your child, and you are lying to your child for a very different reason then you are lying to your spouse. The fact that you equate a child relationship to that of husband and wife just shows it doesn't hold up.
> 
> The premise seems to be the cheater is protecting the spouse so ultimately they can have a good life. I don't agree, spending your life with someone who cheats on you is a waste, basically a nightmare whether you know it or not, there is always better out there then that. When it comes to a committed relationship a cheating spouse (especially one who doesn't ask for forgiveness) is worthless. Frankly worse then worthless because all they are just a time sink. Most people when given the choice would not want to be married to a cheater. I know I wouldn't. If you don't give me a choice you are still taking away my power and agency and abusing me. Frankly it always comes down to protecting yourself from consequences, not the spouse you cheated on. (I am sure I could find just as many references from Psychologists to say you should tell them by the way)
> 
> ...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Every part of that paragraph is basically just reinforcing the selfishness and ultimate brokenness of the WS and their thinking. The benefit is for the BS to make an informed decision. Besides that once someone has cheated on a marriage it's quite disingenuous in my mind to now suddenly be concerned about what is the benefit for the marriage. Talk about hypocrisy, the WS didn't give a **** about the marriage when they were cheating, yet NOW they care?
> 
> Besides that the vow was to honor and protect your spouse not the marriage. Your spouse has a right to know, you are not protecting them by letting them live with a cheater uninformed.
> 
> Here is my post on the other thread that expands on this.


Blah blah blah. You've said NOTHING that hasn't been said fruitlessly a million times. A cheater already lacks integrity, so why would they suddenly develop it when they know there will be unpleasant consequences? The only cheaters who confess are those riddled with guilt, or perhaps got sucked into a compromising situation and couldn't figure their way out before screwing up badly.

An INFORMED decision is normally one that avoids negative consequences - for themselves, primarily. Almost everyone who does anything wrong - from running a stop sign to genocide - hopes to get away with it, and amazingly few ever come forward to confess. And they ALL lie about it and/or justify it if discovered. It's basic human nature. So those who do confess are among the _extraordinary_ few. **** vows - look to human nature and understand it, because most promises are empty when the **** hits the fan. We strive for ideals (and should continue to do so), but very few achieve them consistently.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

karr99 said:


> There's a conversation about this in "Did i cheat on him thread", and i got surprised by the reason from the "should not tell" camp. One said that it is a not good idea for a woman to confess an affair, unless she is sure the man is mature enough to be able to hear it. One worried because BS might not willing to let go (and marriage is about forgiving each other), one said that the only one motivating factor to confess and that is to receive forgiveness.
> 
> Shouldn't honesty, respect and equal partnership be the main reasons ?
> Is hiding an ended affair a noble lie ?
> ...


Most cheaters are too selfish to ever want to tell

Most betrayed would want a confession

Never the twain shall meet


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Should they tell sure - but remember even when caught most cheaters just want to get away with it. I will say this people who do carry that around for their entire married life and never confess have a warped conscience.


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## leon2100 (May 13, 2015)

no! no! hell no? and if caught. follow these three basic rules. 1. deny. 2. deny 3. deny


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

aine said:


> Most cheaters are too selfish to ever want to tell
> 
> Most betrayed would want a confession
> 
> Never the twain shall meet


How many BS have had this conversation post DD...

BS: If things were so bad, why didn't you just divorce me?
WS: I love you, I never wanted to leave you.
BS: Then why did you keep cheating on me, right up to the day you were caught?
WS: I didn't know how to stop. If I told you the truth, you would D me. 

Plain and simple... they ain't confessing, cause they ain't stopping. Selfish.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

RWB said:


> How many BS have had this conversation post DD...
> 
> BS: If things were so bad, why didn't you just divorce me?
> WS: *I love you, I never wanted to leave you.*
> ...


As if its some great victory that a WS loves the BS and doesnt want to leave? Wow..just like winning the lottery...SMH

I do wonder if WSs think its some they are some great prize that their Bs has "won" back..more like receiving refurbished electronics if you ask me -


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Blah blah blah. You've said NOTHING that hasn't been said fruitlessly a million times. A cheater already lacks integrity, so why would they suddenly develop it when they know there will be unpleasant consequences? The only cheaters who confess are those riddled with guilt, or perhaps got sucked into a compromising situation and couldn't figure their way out before screwing up badly.


Yep which is why I am very down on reconciliation. I believe it's in their nature and nature is very hard to change. For the most part with some caveats, such as some of the repentant people on here they are not worth the effort. The BS can work on trying to live with who that are for the rest of their lives or they can work on getting over them for about a hard year. I first choice doesn't really minimize risk, the second does assuming you make a better choice the next time and you use the time braking away to learn why it is you choose who you did, or at least looking for some warning signs.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

RWB said:


> How many BS have had this conversation post DD...
> 
> BS: If things were so bad, why didn't you just divorce me?
> WS: I love you, I never wanted to leave you.
> ...


Yeah, then go read some posts on the adultery section of Love Shack. That is a much better depiction of who most WSs are then anything else on the web. That is who you are choosing to risk you emotional safety with. It's not I didn't know how to stop it's really, I was loving it! Believe otherwise at your own risk.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Allowing your spouse to stay in a relationship with someone who cheated on them without their consent hurts them much more then telling them you cheated on them.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Blah blah blah. You've said NOTHING that hasn't been said fruitlessly a million times. A cheater already lacks integrity, so why would they suddenly develop it when they know there will be unpleasant consequences? The only cheaters who confess are those riddled with guilt, or perhaps got sucked into a compromising situation and couldn't figure their way out before screwing up badly.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Yeah, then go read some posts on the adultery section of Love Shack. That is a much better depiction of who most WSs are then anything else on the web. That is who you are choosing to risk you emotional safety with. It's not I didn't know how to stop it's really, I was loving it! Believe otherwise at your own risk.


Or read them whining at SI...wow..Wss can whine like nobody's business...they keep starting new threads just to whine abot how tough life is, how "abusive" people are....just own your sh!t already...you blow up your family and your shocked people are p!ssed off and mean to you...


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Or read them whining at SI...wow..Wss can whine like nobody's business...they keep starting new threads just to whine abot how tough life is, how "abusive" people are....just own your sh!t already...you blow up your family and your shocked people are p!ssed off and mean to you...


Does this not perfectly describe the mindset of a child?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> Does this not perfectly describe the mindset of a child?


Yeah...you are correct...many of the posts in the threads I've described do seem as tone deaf and lacking in self-awareness as when a child throws a tantrum when they dont get what they want...good point...when I read the posts on the other forum I keep thinking this...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

From the other thread



sokillme said:


> Regardless of OP, Here in lies the difference. You spouse is not your child. You never made a commitment with your child, and you are lying to your child for a very different reason then you are lying to your spouse. The fact that you equate a child relationship to that of husband and wife just shows it doesn't hold up.


But lying to a child for that child's benefit wasn't the only example I gave. The point is, we lie for reasons that have nothing to do with saving ourselves heartache. Whether you call them white lies or lies by omission we do it. Not confessing is about the biggest lie by omission you can make, but if made for the reason of not burdening your spouse with information that would only hurt them it is better to continue to omit the truth.




> The premise seems to be the cheater is protecting the spouse so ultimately they can have a good life.


It is no so simple as that. I think you have not read anything I've written because I've never suggested that to withhold a confession be based on having a good life.



> I don't agree, spending your life with someone who cheats on you is a waste, basically a nightmare whether you know it or not, there is always better out there then that. When it comes to a committed relationship a cheating spouse (especially one who doesn't ask for forgiveness) is worthless. Frankly worse then worthless because all they are just a time sink. Most people when given the choice would not want to be married to a cheater. I know I wouldn't. If you don't give me a choice you are still taking away my power and agency and abusing me. Frankly it always comes down to protecting yourself from consequences, not the spouse you cheated on. (I am sure I could find just as many references from Psychologists to say you should tell them by the way)


Again, I'm not sure you've actually read my words because you use cheating in the present tense, as if it is on going, currently happening and likely to continue to happen. If those qualifications are true, than absolutely the betrayed spouse needs to know. This is not a repentant spouse. This is not a spouse seeking insight into his/her character and why they cheated.

I've never ever suggested that any consideration be given to protecting oneself from consequences of their behavior. If an unfaithful spouse gives any thought to saving themselves the heartache of consequences than they are STILL not examining their behavior and are STILL acting selfishly and are STILL unrepentant. 

You all seem to think that consequences must be delivered by the betrayed in order for them to be true consequences and that is not true. You also seem to think that a person can only be repentant by confessing and that is not true either.





> The one caveat is when your spouse specifically says they wouldn't want to know. I still don't give those marriages much of a shot though in the long run.
> 
> What if the spouse point blank asks you. What if they tell you they would not want to be marred to you if they found out. How do you justify that, surely you are not saying you have the right to override that request by not providing the information to make that decision.



Good question, I think if a spouse asks point blank, this is a spouse who needs the truth. What you can't see is not everyone needs the truth.






> As far as OP is concerned lets just go with your premise that she didn't cheat. I don't agree but I do agree it's not the same as adultery because they hadn't even met in person. So lets say we accept your premise though, she didn't cheat.
> 
> She still lied to him for 10 years. 10 years of lying is a hell of a thing to get over and doesn't make for a good marriage. The damage is still severe. Now if you are saying she should have lied forever because it wasn't his business then I guess you ARE advocating for taking away the ability to make an informed decision. Don't know how anyone can morally do that. Remember he asked her repeatedly according to her, and she lied every time, until she didn't. You seem to be saying the lying was a good thing.
> 
> ...


No her mistake was in allowing him to be butt hurt over it in the first place.

"You cheated on me before we ever met face to face when I kept lying about how I was going to come visit you month after month and was evasive about the reasons why I couldn't? I'm crushed! Why would you do that to me?"

And the wife says: "no I didn't cheat, I dated a man before I met you, get over it." End of story.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Or read them whining at SI...wow..Wss can whine like nobody's business...they keep starting new threads just to whine abot how tough life is, how "abusive" people are....just own your sh!t already...you blow up your family and your shocked people are p!ssed off and mean to you...


Damn this hits home. Components of my BPD wife described to a T. ...and always a victim.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Idyit said:


> Damn this hits home. Components of my BPD wife described to a T. ...and always a victim.


Yeah..I've learned that through my own life and reading the WSs always rush to be the "victim"..on the site I cited they actually start threads about how rough their life is, how mean people are, I find that WSs seem to stick together......one even said in light of a BS wanting the property placed in their name before agreeing to R- "you cant trust the BS dont do it" can you f**king believe that - to say that after having carried on an affair ? NoChoice is right they are children....


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> You also seem to think that a person can only be repentant by confessing and that is not true either.
> 
> .


I'd doubt the remorse of someone who hides their A...they are doing it to keep their life in tact. I understand it but I do doubt they are thinking of anyone but themselves - hence more selfish behavior.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

"Honey, you know how I promised to be faithful to you forever when we got married? Well I've been unfaithful, but I've decided that you're not mature enough to know about it. So I'm going to continue to deceive you, like an entitled child, by keeping quiet."

Sorry, who's not "mature" enough again?


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Talk about hypocrisy, the WS didn't give a **** about the marriage when they were cheating, yet NOW they care?.


I think anyone that cheats and lies, not just infidelity, has really no other option but to not give crap about much except them, hell I think as kids we all learn that, just that most of us know better than to apply it in adulthood thankfully. 
Honestly I think anyone that feels they will never cheat or lie/deceive is fooling themselves a bit, I don't mean just romance here.
So is like the drunk driver had to drink to get drunk to get into the accident, the only way they could done it is by drinking, none else, otherwise they couldn't get drunk. Doesn't excuse anything at all, but really they do have to lie and deceive in order to cheat, surely not by being honest and thruthful

And yes they absolutely tell, a cheater that keeps their cheating from their BS is a larger POS to me than even while cheating.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> And yes they absolutely tell, a cheater that keeps their cheating from their BS is a larger POS to me than even while cheating.


Cheaters dont care about anyone but themselves - period. Otherwise they wouldnt torch their BS that way...and I'm beginning to think either through hiding it or getting R in a lot of ways - most get away with it...


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## james5588 (Mar 22, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Cheaters dont care about anyone but themselves - period. Otherwise they wouldnt torch their BS that way...and I'm beginning to think either through hiding it or getting R in a lot of ways - most get away with it...


Loathe the very idea. I don't get it. But, then again, I believe we will answer for everything anyway...

I wonder how many BS's either suspect or outright know versus those that are truly completely oblivious.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> From the other thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I think that the betrayed spouse has a right to at least know what they're involved with, and given all the information to make a reasonable choice of whether they wish to stay or not. It's like the betrayed spouse thinks that he/she is still married to the same person he/she took vows with, but that person has violated their vows, and it's sad that the betrayed spouse goes on living a lie. That said, a betrayed spouse could have a hard time with the news, so maybe that is why some cheaters, if they end the affair quietly, don't say anything? Idk.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> But lying to a child for that child's benefit wasn't the only example I gave. The point is, we lie for reasons that have nothing to do with saving ourselves heartache. Whether you call them white lies or lies by omission we do it. Not confessing is about the biggest lie by omission you can make, *but if made for the reason of not burdening your spouse with information that would only hurt them it is better to continue to omit the truth.*


This comes straight out of the Cheater's Handbook: Don't Confess to Spare the Betrayed Spouse the Pain of Knowing.

The cheating spouse does not have the right to make that decision for their betrayed spouse. Period. To do so is tantamount to theft, because they are stealing precious months and years from their betrayed spouse, time that the betrayed spouse can never get back. We've seen stories on this forum about affairs that were confessed after 15, 20, 30 years. The betrayed spouse had all those years stolen from them, along with the right to choose for themselves whether they would divorce or reconcile. 

The cheating spouse is also a coward for not owning up to their mistakes and take the consequences like a grown-up. They can justify that they're protecting their betrayed spouse, but if they were honest, they'd also admit that it's about protecting their reputation and public image from being destroyed and shamed.

Cheaters who don't confess are cowards, liars, and thieves.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

I have spoken to many BSs. Most say it was not the sex that caused them to leave the WS, it was the continued lies and deception.

So a WS can make up several reasons not to tell and probably talk themselves into believing, but that is just continuing the lies and deception.

One of the main reasons I don't push R here is that if a WS lies and deceives before and during the affair to get what they want, can you truly believe all the "I'm sorry and love only you" that most say to avoid a D?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Ignorance is bliss. This is often true for both the WS and the BS. When in doubt, STFU!


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> I wonder if confessing more often leads to reconciliation than discovery. I wonder if confessing occurs more often when the cheater is going to leave anyway. Is there ANY tangible benefit to the cheater to confess? Without some expectation of a better outcome through confessing, where is the motivation? (Especially when the odds are good that they'll get away with it.)


 From a pragmatic viewpoint, setting morals, honesty, transparency, and love for your partner aside, it would be in the best interest of a cheater to confess, because if caught they have the lies and inevitable gaslighting ON TOP of the cheating to answer for. The confession at least helps to squelch that. Many here say that the continued lying and gaslighting was worse than the infidelity.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

I have to respect the 99 year old husband who divorced his 96 year old wife because of her affair that she had in the 1940s. source


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

becareful2 said:


> I have to respect the 99 year old husband who divorced his 96 year old wife because of her affair that she had in the 1940s. source


Affairs taint a marriage. His was based on lies and he knew it. Self respect.


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## KevinZX (Jul 1, 2017)

My crazy wife had numerous EA in her time with me, she always said to me after i found out that she was dong something behind my back that she was so many times going to tell me she had had an affair but couldn't get the words out. I didn't believe her at all as she was always a liar, but i could imagine it would be very difficult to own up when one wasn't sure of the collateral damage. Confessing anything must be difficult, but the trick is to not be in a position to need to confess, just don't do anything that requires a confession or the guilt of keeping quiet brings, but that is asking too much i think, people just need to grow up a bit, stop doing that that hurts, heal the wounds of life and you will have achieved something, something huge.

Love and Peace always

KevinZX


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> I wonder if confessing more often leads to reconciliation than discovery. I wonder if confessing occurs more often when the cheater is going to leave anyway.


My ex-wife's confession didn't lead to reconciliation, that said I've no doubt it has for some others although I don't know which occurs more frequently.



Married but Happy said:


> Is there ANY tangible benefit to the cheater to confess? Without some expectation of a better outcome through confessing, where is the motivation? (Especially when the odds are good that they'll get away with it.)


Despite a number of attractive offers I have found it easy to not cheat on anyone. That said I'm pretty sure if I were so inclined, I would have no qualms not ever confessing to such behaviour.



Married but Happy said:


> Blah blah blah. You've said NOTHING that hasn't been said fruitlessly a million times. A cheater already lacks integrity, so why would they suddenly develop it when they know there will be unpleasant consequences?


Well said.



Married but Happy said:


> The only cheaters who confess are those riddled with guilt, or perhaps got sucked into a compromising situation and couldn't figure their way out before screwing up badly.


My ex-wife was so riddled with guilt, she felt compelled to confess her marital infidelity to me (otherwise for that single instance I would probably have never known).

Yet despite the fact she wanted to remain married to me at the time, and despite prostrating herself to me in extraordinary ways both sexually and emotionally through her own initiative, Her sexual infidelity was beyond my satisfaction and her supplication saw me loathe her even more.

Given the contempt I then felt, removing her opportunity to be with me was an easy thing to do.

At the end of the day I am not the type of person who is inclined to give someone the benefit of the doubt. When wronged, I like to get my pound of flesh.



TDSC60 said:


> I have spoken to many BSs. Most say it was not the sex that caused them to leave the WS, it was the continued lies and deception.


It was the sexual betrayal that saw me leave.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

becareful2 said:


> This comes straight out of the Cheater's Handbook: Don't Confess to Spare the Betrayed Spouse the Pain of Knowing.
> 
> The cheating spouse does not have the right to make that decision for their betrayed spouse. Period. To do so is tantamount to theft, because they are stealing precious months and years from their betrayed spouse, time that the betrayed spouse can never get back. We've seen stories on this forum about affairs that were confessed after 15, 20, 30 years. The betrayed spouse had all those years stolen from them, along with the right to choose for themselves whether they would divorce or reconcile.
> 
> ...


Meanwhile the earth orbits the sun, the sky often appears blue and those who expect people to always be honest or have a right to honesty get run over by reality.

Although I hope people are honest, I have absolutely no expectation that any person will be.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

There is no benefit to telling your spouse. People do it to alleviate their guilt so they dump it on their spouse and destroy his world so that the cheater can feel better. The fact that you are honest is not going to minimize the fallout of your cheating. You are risking your marriage.

If you do not tell and resolve never to do it again, your spouse does not get his world turned upside down and you just suck it up, live with the guilt and be a faithful wife. If you are not going to cheat again, why tell your spouse? Do you tell them that they are fat or ugly because honesty is the best policy. Nope. You spare them and just keep that stuff to yourself. 

I once told my wife that I cheated. It is 43 years later and she still brings it up. She still is bothered by it and I regret telling her. All I did was get rid of my guilt by dumping it on her and that was very unfair of me to do. It has affected her for all these years. If I sucked up my guilt, my wife would not still be thinking about me cheating for decades.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Vinnydee said:


> There is no benefit to telling your spouse. People do it to alleviate their guilt so they dump it on their spouse and destroy his world so that the cheater can feel better. The fact that you are honest is not going to minimize the fallout of your cheating. You are risking your marriage.
> 
> If you do not tell and resolve never to do it again, your spouse does not get his world turned upside down and you just suck it up, live with the guilt and be a faithful wife. If you are not going to cheat again, why tell your spouse? Do you tell them that they are fat or ugly because honesty is the best policy. Nope. You spare them and just keep that stuff to yourself.
> 
> I once told my wife that I cheated. It is 43 years later and she still brings it up. She still is bothered by it and I regret telling her. All I did was get rid of my guilt by dumping it on her and that was very unfair of me to do. It has affected her for all these years. If I sucked up my guilt, my wife would not still be thinking about me cheating for decades.


At least you gave her the choice--exactly how she chose to respond is up to her. Had you not, every day since then you would have both been living a lie which is far worse. If it has affected her all these years, she should have left you and moved on--again, you gave her that choice.

The mere possibility of being discovered, no matter how unlikely you think it may be, is itself justification for telling as finding out later is infinitely worse.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

There is no benefit to telling your spouse. People do it to alleviate their guilt so they dump it on their spouse and destroy his world so that the cheater can feel better. The fact that you are honest is not going to minimize the fallout of your cheating. You are risking your marriage.

If you do not tell and resolve never to do it again, your spouse does not get his world turned upside down and you just suck it up, live with the guilt and be a faithful wife. If you are not going to cheat again, why tell your spouse? Do you tell them that they are fat or ugly because honesty is the best policy. Nope. You spare them and just keep that stuff to yourself. 

I once told my wife that I cheated. It is 43 years later and she still brings it up. She still is bothered by it and I regret telling her. All I did was get rid of my guilt by dumping it on her and that was very unfair of me to do. It has affected her for all these years. If I sucked up my guilt, my wife would not still be thinking about me cheating for decades.


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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Blah blah blah. You've said NOTHING that hasn't been said fruitlessly a million times. A cheater already lacks integrity, so why would they suddenly develop it when they know there will be unpleasant consequences? The only cheaters who confess are those riddled with guilt, or perhaps got sucked into a compromising situation and couldn't figure their way out before screwing up badly.
> 
> An INFORMED decision is normally one that avoids negative consequences - for themselves, primarily. Almost everyone who does anything wrong - from running a stop sign to genocide - hopes to get away with it, and amazingly few ever come forward to confess. And they ALL lie about it and/or justify it if discovered. It's basic human nature. So those who do confess are among the _extraordinary_ few. **** vows - look to human nature and understand it, because most promises are empty when the **** hits the fan. We strive for ideals (and should continue to do so), but very few achieve them consistently.


This is actually a good post, few highlights
1. Cheater lacks or void of integrity
2. If and when a cheater confess, it's for their own benefit
3. Cheater hopes to get away with the negative consequences
4. Their promises and vows are empty when sh!t his the fan (read: when they can't keep their pants on)


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

karr99 said:


> This is actually a good post, few highlights
> 1. Cheater lacks or void of integrity
> 2. If and when a cheater confess, it's for their own benefit
> 3. Cheater hopes to get away with the negative consequences
> 4. Their promises and vows are empty when sh!t his the fan (read: when they can't keep their pants on)


Yep see my response. Not worth it. 

It highlights exactly why they say there are cheaters and people who don't cheat. I personally don't buy the, "everybody lies" stuff. I mean my first thought when this comes up is, what would be best for my spouse. The mindset here seems to be what's in it for me. 

People who won't cheat put the needs of their spouse above their own. Maybe not in in doing the dishes, but in moral things like this, it's just the way they think. 

Most of these people don't lie because it's the right thing to do, and I am not talking about the white lie (do I look fat) or what not. They have lived authentically for so long that it's like second nature. It seems the the opposite is true as well. 

I can't imagine not telling my wife something that I know would hurt her just to protect myself, but then I can't imagine ever cheating on anyone. Not because of my love for someone but because I would not want to be that person. 

The thinking here is just so foreign to me. How could I even possibly have a secret so big from my wife. She is such a part of me it would seem impossible. We are so emotionally and mentally entwined. It seems untenable. 

My motivations in life are always in some respect related to her. It just wouldn't seem natural for it not to be, so I don't see how I could get to the cheating stage let alone lying for years. 

I don't think I am special I just think faithful spouses think this way. This is why staying with a cheater is such a come down. I just a different mindset. It's so much easier to be in a relationship where both people think like the faithful ones. It solves a whole lot of problems. 

This is a great topic though.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> A cheater already lacks integrity, so why would they suddenly develop it when they know there will be unpleasant consequences? The only cheaters who confess are those *riddled with guilt*, or perhaps got sucked into a compromising situation and couldn't figure their way out before screwing up badly.
> 
> An INFORMED decision is normally one that avoids negative consequences - for themselves, primarily. Almost everyone who does anything wrong - from running a stop sign to genocide - hopes to get away with it, and amazingly few ever come forward to confess. And they ALL lie about it and/or justify it if discovered.


I'm not going into details but after our first big-fight at a bar, wife goes and hang out with co-workers. She said "broke up with me" - but she is drunk. I didn't know about the drinking problems or how to deal with it. But she thought I left her at the bar... in anger, she had sex with a co-worker. It took until afternoon the next day for her get info right and realized she was wrong. Within 10 minutes of finally meeting, she was upset and told me she had sex with a co-worker. *She told me out of guilt. * We were an open relationship couple, the sex didn't bother me. I was more concerned about our relationship and that she was safe. Not knowing the future nightmare in the months to come. That same co-worker later turned into the AP... lies, deception, the usual. She would then find justifications for her actions. When it became an affair - she would not admit it. I *DID NOT KNOW* it... neither did she. If I was here months earlier, we could have done things differently. Anyway - it still took a while for the fog to lift... here and there. Different aspects of her actions. Reading up on it in books. She had to realize what she did was wrong to me and to herself. Even after moving out, would NOT admit she was having an affair / cheating. Today, she knows she cheated. She did a lot of bad things.

Two different situations - with the same person (AP) = different results. And like with another thread... a serial /sex-based cheater - it's easier to hide. There is no/or little emotional attachment (guys) but for women cheaters, when it's beyond sexual - they destroy everything. 

She did have guilt when she thought about me, when she cheated... vs no guilt when thinking about the AP.


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## Kerf (Apr 22, 2017)

Vinnydee said:


> There is no benefit to telling your spouse. People do it to alleviate their guilt so they dump it on their spouse and destroy his world so that the cheater can feel better. The fact that you are honest is not going to minimize the fallout of your cheating. You are risking your marriage.


The risk was done by having the affair.

I disagree that there is no "benefit" in telling the betrayed spouse.What's the "benefit" in staying in an unfulfilling marriage?Maybe, just maybe, both the betrayed and the cheating spouse will be happier with other people?




Married but Happy said:


> Ignorance is bliss. This is often true for both the WS and the BS. When in doubt, STFU!



Just because they are unaware there was infidelity, doesn't mean the betrayed never notice a growing emotional distance and suspicious behavior.They may assume it's just depression, mlc or the money/family issues, but they know something's a miss.


Open communication, honesty is important in relationships in general.Not just when there is cheating.





> If you do not tell and resolve never to do it again,


They swore to never do it in the first place, on their wedding day.



> your spouse does not get his world turned upside down and you just suck it up, live with the guilt and be a faithful wife.*If you are not going to cheat again, why tell your spouse?*


Because the spouse deserves someone better suited for them?Someone that will spend as much effort on them, as the cheating spouse spend on the AP?And not just out of supposed guilt, but genuine love and adoration.



> Do you tell them that they are fat or ugly because honesty is the best policy. Nope. You spare them and just keep that stuff to yourself.


Yes.You should tell them.If your find your spouse fat, ugly or otherwise unattractive, what's the "benefit" in forcing yourself to make love and live with a person you don't like?And doesn't your spouse deserve someone that will find them attractive and appreciate them fully?



> I once told my wife that I cheated. It is 43 years later and she still brings it up. She still is bothered by it and I regret telling her. All I did was get rid of my guilt by dumping it on her and that was very unfair of me to do. It has affected her for all these years. If I sucked up my guilt, my wife would not still be thinking about me cheating for decades.





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> At least you gave her the choice--exactly how she chose to respond is up to her. Had you not, every day since then you would have both been living a lie which is far worse. If it has affected her all these years, she should have left you and moved on--again, you gave her that choice.
> 
> The mere possibility of being discovered, no matter how unlikely you think it may be, is itself justification for telling as finding out later is infinitely worse.


QFT


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Vinnydee said:


> I once told my wife that I cheated. It is 43 years later and she still brings it up. She still is bothered by it and I regret telling her. All I did was get rid of my guilt by dumping it on her and that was very unfair of me to do. It has affected her for all these years. If I sucked up my guilt, my wife would not still be thinking about me cheating for decades.


The truth is a constant and has not the ability to hurt nor help. Only what the truth reveals can do that. I would posit that it is not the truth that hurts BSs but rather the A. The truth is innocuous but what it reveals can be catastrophic. Cheaters cannot tell the truth by their very nature so if a cheater has the impetus to confesses is it wise to stifle that? Does that not reinforce to the cheater that it is right to do wrong (wrong+wrong=right)?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Woulda. Coulda, Shoulda. We can debate the morality endlessly, but the reality is that the vast majority never confess - and the vast majority are never found out. Most of that vast majority would probably even agree that - morally - it would be best to confess, yet don't.


I'll repeat my first post early in this thread. This is the reality! This is human nature. Moralizing and outrage won't change anything. All you can hope to do is control your own actions as best you can, and hope your own moral convictions continue to serve you if you ever screw up. But if you're inclined to try to beat the rap for a speeding ticket when already caught, for example, can you really know you wouldn't try to beat the rap for cheating, especially if not caught? But in both these scenarios, it's already too late: you've already broken the barrier. Next comes damage control.

Almost everyone's first _instinct_ is to protect themselves: selfishness exists for a very good reason. Morality requires much higher thought processes and successful social conditioning. So saying a cheater is selfish is true. Wanting to find out what they've done is also selfish - because it is rooted in self protection, and entirely valid. Morality certainly comes into play, but it's a secondary response, IMO.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I'll repeat my first post early in this thread. This is the reality! This is human nature. Moralizing and outrage won't change anything. All you can hope to do is control your own actions as best you can, and hope your own moral convictions continue to serve you if you ever screw up. But if you're inclined to try to beat the rap for a speeding ticket when already caught, for example, can you really know you wouldn't try to beat the rap for cheating, even if not caught?
> 
> Almost everyone's first _instinct_ is to protect themselves: selfishness exists for a very good reason. Morality requires much higher thought processes and successful social conditioning. So saying a cheater is selfish is true. Wanting to find out what they've done is also selfish - because it is rooted in self protection, and entirely valid. Morality certainly comes into play, but it's a secondary response, IMO.


Great points. The reality is when you are dealing with a cheater who has a LTA or is a serial cheater they have already showed a depraved indifference to their partner so how would lying be any worse than what they already done? They've shown what they were capable of so what makes people think lying to keep their sh!t would be more of a stretch for them. I think the anger and outrage here comes from that place of knowing we are powerless to stop it and in many cases to catch it. A scary thought. 

If you are inclined to cheat than lying for years wont be much of a burden.

Just to be clear do I think the cheater should confess? Yes. But I'm not holding my breath. Even many "remorseful" WSs who post here and elsewhere GOT CAUGHT they did not confess.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> *I think the anger and outrage here comes from that place of knowing we are powerless to stop it and in many cases to catch it.* A scary thought.
> 
> If you are inclined to cheat than lying for years wont be much of a burden.


I think you've hit on a fundamental truth, here.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I think you've hit on a fundamental truth, here.


Thanks. I'm not judging folks and I get it. But the truth is the WS wants to cake eat and what better way to do that than by covering it all up Win Win for the WS.

Another thing is in the WS mind - the WS is always the victim and are entitled to their A. They will rationalize that the BS was at fault in some way so this isnt really a transgression but just a way for them to get what they need.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Another thing is in the WS mind - the WS is always the victim and are entitled to their A. They will _rationalize_ that the BS was at fault in some way so this isnt really a transgression but just a way for them to get what they need.


This is human nature. It's hard work to overcome fundamental instincts. If you'd try to beat a traffic ticket where you're at fault, of course you'll try to beat the consequences of cheating.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> This is human nature. It's hard work to overcome fundamental instincts. If you'd try to beat a traffic ticket where you're at fault, of course you'll try to beat the consequences of cheating.


Which iis why I think cheaters will try to cover it up. Its also human nature to not get it until you walk a mile in someone elses shoes - which is why I have no sympathy for a WS who gets betrayed.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

NoChoice said:


> The truth is a constant and has not the ability to hurt nor help. Only what the truth reveals can do that. I would posit that it is not the truth that hurts BSs but rather the A. The truth is innocuous but what it reveals can be catastrophic. Cheaters cannot tell the truth by their very nature so if a cheater has the impetus to confesses is it wise to stifle that? Does that not reinforce to the cheater that it is right to do wrong (wrong+wrong=right)?


MY GOD! You are awesome! Great words.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

sokillme said:


> Besides that once someone has cheated on a marriage it's quite disingenuous in my mind to now suddenly be concerned about what is the benefit for the marriage. * Talk about hypocrisy, the WS didn't give a **** about the marriage when they were cheating, yet NOW they care?
> *


Without doubt a large stumbling block towards R. Saw it firsthand.

DD + 1 hour, I catch WW in a short EAPA with the old college BF. She has finally re-united with her long lost soulmate. Reality she has been LT serially EAPA cheating for damn near a decade, multiple OMs. 

Here it comes, a river of tears for mercy... how she never stopped loving me (thanks?), how her affairs never meant anything (for who?), how all she ever wanted was me (thanks again?), how are marriage is all she cares about (strange way of showing it?).

Hypocrisy at it's finest.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Which iis why I think cheaters will try to cover it up. Its also human nature to not get it until you walk a mile in someone elses shoes - which is why I have no sympathy for a WS who gets betrayed.


But for a soulless person, my feel betrayed in a sociopathic way and not actually be hurt by a RA. trump has cheated on 3 wives, think he would actually be hurt if one of them cheated on him? Angry - yes, but not in the same way like a normal BS. More like someone stole money. (Not to be political - but that he's a well-known cheater who has no ability of remorse or regret for anybody, so a revenge affair simply won't do damage)


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TaDor said:


> But for a soulless person, my feel betrayed in a sociopathic way and not actually be hurt by a RA. trump has cheated on 3 wives, think he would actually be hurt if one of them cheated on him? Angry - yes, but not in the same way like a normal BS. More like someone stole money. (Not to be political - but that he's a well-known cheater who has no ability of remorse or regret for anybody, so a revenge affair simply won't do damage)


Agree 100% an Ra wont always work - but other things like exposure, divorce, etc might. But if the person is as souless as you describe the one and only solution is to divorce them and leave them to themselves. Period. Some people are so immoral, so broken that they may never be a normal, decent human being. It best to just simply cut them out of your life.

I've said this before an RA will not work in many cases as well as exposure and divorce. I don't judge people who have RAs and can not stand to hear a WS whine about them. What the Bs needs to do IMO is whatever they need to do to heal.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

james5588 said:


> Loathe the very idea. I don't get it. But, then again, I believe we will answer for everything anyway...
> 
> I wonder how many BS's either suspect or outright know versus those that are truly completely oblivious.


I think many, particularly BHs, are oblivious and some are in denial. What I also wonder is how many BSs simply detach and stay married and call it reconciliation or leave years later. In my experience with people I know - the BWs seemed to detach even if they stayed married after the affair came to light. Their WH was not the same in their eyes and they began to focus more on themselves both in positive and negative (i.e. drinking) ways. There was one story of a couple who were my parents friends. The wife started an A and they separated. Well she thought her BH was home waiting for her but he used the time to shag other women. She didnt like that and they reconciled soon afterwards. lol


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Had I definitively found out about my RSXW's cheating during the course of our marriage, it would have made it far easier for me to just walk away. But being totally oblivious to it at that particular point in time, how was I to even know?

I believe it is human nature that the cheater is so ashamed or emotionally removed from their sordid actions, that as long as those actions remain "out of sight and out of mind," just who in the hell gives a damn? 

For as long as they are getting their rocks unloaded in another cheaters bed, their mantra of security is greatly that "nobody will find out!"

That is, until they do!*


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

DOing an RA has been on my mind from time to time... Especially when she talked to mutual contacts and the POSOM made contact with me. I still get EYES and flirting from women.

But also, I view it as TWO wrongs don't make a right... but who knows.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TaDor said:


> DOing an RA has been on my mind from time to time... Especially when she talked to mutual contacts and the POSOM made contact with me. I still get EYES and flirting from women.
> 
> But also, I view it as TWO wrongs don't make a right... but who knows.


*
If your not comfortable with it then don't do it. Period.* I think just like people are uncomfortable with the fact that in many cases a cheater goes undetected people are uncomfortable with the fact that sometimes an RA does help the BS. In addition people talk about the injustice of infidelity and how a BS needs to live with it perhaps the other form of injustice is that for many an RA is looked at less harshly than the original A. I find cheaters are willing to live with injustice so long as it swings in their favor but not so much when things even up or swing the other way. Human nature I suppose. *But I repeat do not do anything you are uncomfortable with. Stick to what you think is the best course of action for YOU because the purpose is for YOU to heal. *

One last question would anyone really want to live with a WS who would not extend them the same forgiveness they are asking for?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

RWB said:


> Without doubt a large stumbling block towards R. Saw it firsthand.
> 
> DD + 1 hour, I catch WW in a short EAPA with the old college BF. She has finally re-united with her long lost soulmate. Reality she has been LT serially EAPA cheating for damn near a decade, multiple OMs.
> 
> ...


I think what that says to me is that she had her fun but now wants her life back. The height of selfishness. Plus the fact is all she every want was NOT just you but multiple OM. I mean that is an objective fact - if you sleep wiht multiple other people than your BH is not ALL you ever wanted. Period.

I just hope you are doing well and are somewhat comfortable in your marriage to her. Remember you get one life and now is time to live it for you without any baggage.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *
> 
> I believe it is human nature that the cheater is so ashamed or emotionally removed from their sordid actions, that as long as those actions remain "out of sight and out of mind," just who in the hell gives a damn?
> 
> ...


Cheaters might claim during their affair they were not thinking about their BS but that is like saying the drunk driver was not thinking of his victims while they were drinking at the bar. Well WTF did you think was going to happen when you went out and screwed someone else? Thats right you werent thinking like the drunk at the bar wasnt thinking of that family they could kill if they got behind the wheel drunk. SMH


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## Bubblegum25 (Jul 22, 2017)

I think if the affair is ended before the spouse gets caught then there is no need to hurt the partner. 
Being honest at that point would cause just unnecessary pain since the affair was ended already and without it being a forced action. 
People go on about honesty at all costs but like everything when it is applied blindly it can cause more harm than a lie. I don't really see the point of confessing at that point since the affair isn't gonna affect the partner any longer.

I say this as having been cheated by my ex on so it's not a biased opinion.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Really the only thing being debated is intent.

I lied to you for you.

Vs.

I lied to you for me.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Bubblegum25 said:


> I think if the affair is ended before the spouse gets caught then there is no need to hurt the partner.
> Being honest at that point would cause just unnecessary pain since the affair was ended already and without it being a forced action.
> People go on about honesty at all costs but like everything when it is applied blindly it can cause more harm than a lie. I don't really see the point of confessing at that point since the affair isn't gonna affect the partner any longer.
> 
> I say this as having been cheated by my ex on so it's not a biased opinion.


Just because the affair ended before getting caught doesn't mean it won't be exposed later.

And "what's the point?"
The point is you owe it to someone you supposedly love to let them know just who it is they are devoting their life to. Hiding that in the name of "saving them pain" is unconscionable.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Just because the affair ended before getting caught doesn't mean it won't be exposed later.
> 
> And "what's the point?"
> *The point is you owe it to someone you supposedly love to let them know just who it is they are devoting their life to*. Hiding that in the name of "saving them pain" is unconscionable.


The WS loves themselves first and foremost. Thats why they felt justified in pursuing an affair which destroys lives. If you pursue an affair, leave for your aP, etc you are a person who puts themselves ahead of the good of their family. Not the kinds of person any one should aspire to be IMO.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

RWB said:


> Without doubt a large stumbling block towards R. Saw it firsthand.
> 
> DD + 1 hour, I catch WW in a short EAPA with the old college BF. She has finally re-united with her long lost soulmate. Reality she has been LT serially EAPA cheating for damn near a decade, multiple OMs.
> 
> ...


The scary thing is when you believe they never stopped loving you it's just there love doesn't stop them from stabbing you in the back. How much is that worth. :frown2:


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> The scary thing is when you believe they never stopped loving you it's just there love doesn't stop them from *stabbing you in the back.* How much is that worth. :frown2:


Love isnt usually found on the tip of the blade going into your back. :banghead:

The WS loves themselves period.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> At least you gave her the choice--exactly how she chose to respond is up to her. Had you not, every day since then you would have both been living a lie which is far worse. If it has affected her all these years, she should have left you and moved on--again, you gave her that choice.
> 
> The mere possibility of being discovered, no matter how unlikely you think it may be, is itself justification for telling as finding out later is infinitely worse.



There are two views about telling your spouse expressed from professional psychologist and therapist. For everyone you can point to, I can point to another that disagrees with yours. I am talking about one night stands or a weekend with another person, not an emotional affair. 

Also we all tend judge others based on our own morality despite there being no single right morality in our world. Just ask a terrorist sometime to see what I mean. We were not monogamous. We were monogamish. In a nutshell a one night stand or brief sexual non emotional fling was not a deal breaker in our marriage. We allowed ourselves to accept that we would be attracted to others and sometimes that that it would cloud our judgement. It is not the cheating that bothers my wife as she has watched me have sex with other women a few times, as I saw her. The problem is in the knowing. She believes that what the eyes cannot see or ears cannot hear, the heart cannot feel. So I never told her again and I have no idea of what she did when I was gone 3 months out of every year for a long time. No matter what either of us did, it did not cause even a ripple in our marriage so who cares who stuck what in who. Sex can be just sex. Having sex out of marriage is not the only thing that works and more and more couples are accepting that to avoid the fate of many other couples.

Show me someone who never lies to their spouse and I will show you a liar. No one goes around telling their spouse that all the spouses of their friends and family are better looking, that they were attracted to women they saw during their day, they think their spouse is fat, not intelligent enough, etc. We all live with lies or else we would not find someone to like or love us. 

When You Should Tell Your Partner You Cheated | Men's Health

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201310/the-curious-couples-guide-occasional-non-monogamy


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> *Cheaters might claim during their affair they were not thinking about their BS but that is like saying the drunk driver was not thinking of his victims while they were drinking at the bar. Well WTF did you think was going to happen when you went out and screwed someone else? Thats right you werent thinking like the drunk at the bar wasnt thinking of that family they could kill if they got behind the wheel drunk.*


*That's a damned good analogy of the situation, TS! One of the better ones that I've ever heard!*


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## Kerf (Apr 22, 2017)

Vinnydee said:


> It is not the cheating that bothers my wife as she has watched me have sex with other women a few times, as I saw her. The problem is in the knowing. She believes that what the eyes cannot see or ears cannot hear, the heart cannot feel.


But how can she not know when you even have her watch?The problem is not just in the "knowing".Affairs often lead to plethora of other problems.Like neglecting and even leaving your spouse.

"Just because they are unaware there was infidelity, doesn't mean the betrayed never notice a growing emotional distance and suspicious behavior.They may assume it's just depression, mlc or the money/family issues, but they know something's a miss.


Open communication, honesty is important in relationships in general.Not just when there is cheating."

Hiding and sweeping things under the rug doesn't fix the issue.



> Sex can be just sex. Having sex out of marriage is not the only thing that works and more and more couples are accepting that to avoid the fate of many other couples.


But many affairs are more than just sex.And even open relationships fail sometimes because of it.

The fate of many other couples that shouldn't have gotten together in the first place?You can't fix what's broken by just opening it up and inviting other people in.You are just delaying the inevitable.



> Show me someone who never lies to their spouse and I will show you a liar. No one goes around telling their spouse that all the spouses of their friends and family are better looking, that they were attracted to women they saw during their day, they think their spouse is fat, not intelligent enough, etc. We all live with lies or else we would not find someone to like or love us.


If you think that your spouse is fat, ugly or dumb, that's a problem regardless if you tell them that or not.

btw, if my partner asks whether xyz is attractive, i never lie and say "no, they are ugly".But maybe that's just me?I also don't "settle", so i don't have to think to myself that everyone around me is more intelligent and attractive than me and my partner.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Vinnydee said:


> T
> I once told my wife that I cheated. It is 43 years later and she still brings it up. She still is bothered by it and I regret telling her. All I did was get rid of my guilt by dumping it on her and that was very unfair of me to do. It has affected her for all these years. If I sucked up my guilt, my wife would not still be thinking about me cheating for decades.


How much are you concerned for your wife, and how much are you just upset that she keeps bringing it up? IE, how much is about her well being vs yours?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Vinnydee said:


> There are two views about telling your spouse expressed from professional psychologist and therapist. For everyone you can point to, I can point to another that disagrees with yours. I am talking about one night stands or a weekend with another person, not an emotional affair.
> 
> Also we all tend judge others based on our own morality despite there being no single right morality in our world. Just ask a terrorist sometime to see what I mean. We were not monogamous. We were monogamish. In a nutshell a one night stand or brief sexual non emotional fling was not a deal breaker in our marriage. We allowed ourselves to accept that we would be attracted to others and sometimes that that it would cloud our judgement. It is not the cheating that bothers my wife as she has watched me have sex with other women a few times, as I saw her. The problem is in the knowing. She believes that what the eyes cannot see or ears cannot hear, the heart cannot feel. So I never told her again and I have no idea of what she did when I was gone 3 months out of every year for a long time. No matter what either of us did, it did not cause even a ripple in our marriage so who cares who stuck what in who. Sex can be just sex. Having sex out of marriage is not the only thing that works and more and more couples are accepting that to avoid the fate of many other couples.
> 
> ...


Nothing but a whole lot of false equivalencies throughout that post. Just because a terrorist thinks he is moral doesn't make it so--if anything, this perfectly illustrates my point that some "morality" is completely effed up.

And no, we don't disclose to our partners every time we find someone else attractive. But finding someone else attractive is a spontaneous, involuntary act. Sleeping with them is a deliberate, conscious act. There is no comparison.

As for for whether or not we are monogamous, that is a choice. Whatever instincts or programming we are born with, we have free will and the power to rise above it if we so choose. You chose not to, which worked for you because you were both on board -- but before that, the lie was problematic. It still stands that she should have had full knowledge so as to make an informed decision as to whether or not to move on with you.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

sokillme said:


> The scary thing is when you believe they never stopped loving you it's just there love doesn't stop them from stabbing you in the back. How much is that worth. :frown2:


Sometimes, they do still love you - but you're not enough. They have no intention of stabbing you in the back, but that's how the BS feels when they find out. Most never find out, though.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *That's a damned good analogy of the situation, TS! One of the better ones that I've ever heard!*


Thanks. Cheating is irresponsible and destructive behavior. WS claim ignorance on what they thought their A would do to their BS - WTF? I've read WSs actually on this site say I thought he/she would be pissed but not this destroyed. WTF? So if you think the degree of hurt is not going to be as great you do it? And lets be honest we have seen it here and elsewhere PLENTY of WSs cheat in decent marriage not just extremely bad ones. No one likes to talk about that because then they really feel powerless. For me its even worse if you are a WS and cheated in a marriage that was basically a good one. How do you come back from that?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Sometimes, they do still love you - but you're not enough. They have no intention of stabbing you in the back, but that's how the BS feels when they find out. Most never find out, though.


The very act of cheating is stabbing someone in the back. EVERY WS knows that. They do it anyway.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Kerf said:


> Affairs often lead to plethora of other problems. Like neglecting and even leaving your spouse.


Yes, true. But not always. And is leaving necessarily bad? It may seem so in the short term, but may be best for everyone in the long run.




> "Just because they are unaware there was infidelity, doesn't mean the betrayed never notice a growing emotional distance and suspicious behavior.They may assume it's just depression, mlc or the money/family issues, but they know something's a miss.


Noticing anything isn't assured. How many times do we hear from a BS who had NO clue that anything was wrong? Often! They were happy and complacent the whole time, and thought their relationship was wonderful and perfect - until they found out. This is at least as true for those who never find out.




> Open communication, honesty is important in relationships in general.Not just when there is cheating."
> 
> Hiding and sweeping things under the rug doesn't fix the issue


.

Absolutely. But you're least likely to get honesty and communication when there is cheating.




> But many affairs are more than just sex.And even open relationships fail sometimes because of it.
> 
> The fate of many other couples that shouldn't have gotten together in the first place?You can't fix what's broken by just opening it up and inviting other people in.You are just delaying the inevitable.


Any relationship can fail. Consensual, non-coercive open relationships fail less often, and the same is true for swingers. They generally have better communication to begin with in order to negotiate these arrangements, they have far less to hide, and far less reason to feel any need to hide things or be dishonest. You are completely correct in that you can't fix a broken relationship by opening it up in some way. Yes, it may delay things, or it may accelerate them - neither of which is bad, if the relationship should end anyway.

Anyway, the bottom line problem isn't that relationships fail. The fundamental problem is how people behave and treat each other as it fails. We can't change human nature and urges. At best we can educate and instill values that will somewhat lessen the frequency that such behavior occurs. No one is immune.


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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Noticing anything isn't assured. How many times do we hear from a BS who had NO clue that anything was wrong? Often! They were happy and complacent the whole time, and thought their relationship was wonderful and perfect - until they found out. This is at least as true for those who never find out.


 Actually, from what i've read, heard and experienced, most BS experienced at least some kind of emotional distance from their WS but they weren't able to put exactly what the heck is wrong with their marriage. Unless the WS is a serial cheater who's a pro at covering his/her tracks, BS will notice.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

karr99 said:


> Actually, from what i've read, heard and experienced, most BS experienced at least some kind of emotional distance from their WS but they weren't able to put exactly what the heck is wrong with their marriage. Unless the WS is a serial cheater who's a pro at covering his/her tracks, BS will notice.


Since most affairs are never found out, either most BS are clueless and/or most WS are pros at deception. Those who found out may have done so only because they noticed that distance and investigated - so of course there's a correlation in those cases.


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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Since most affairs are never found out, either most BS are clueless and/or most WS are pros at deception. Those who found out may have done so only because they noticed that distance and investigated - so of course there's a correlation in those cases.


Clueless about guessing the affair but not at feeling that there's something wrong. It isn't often as you stated that BS had no clue that there's something is wrong let alone thinking that their relationship is perfect.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

karr99 said:


> Clueless about guessing the affair but not at feeling that there's something wrong. It isn't often as you stated that BS had no clue that there's something is wrong let alone thinking that their relationship is perfect.


How do you know? Got anything to back that up? And perhaps the affair isn't what's making them feel something is wrong - it could be that the marriage is in trouble, even when there is no affair, so you can't necessarily link them.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

karr99 said:


> Clueless about guessing the affair but not at feeling that there's something wrong. It isn't often as you stated that BS had no clue that there's something is wrong let alone thinking that their relationship is perfect.


The BS knows something is wrong but can not imagine it could be that their Ws is cheating so probably live in some form of denial. Serial cheaters like my relative was an expert at covering his tracks and had ajob that made cheating easy he was able to for 15 years or more until his wife walked in on him fvcking one of his mistresses in their lake house. FYI both his kids were cheaters as well. Nice family tradition there.


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## Kerf (Apr 22, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Yes, true. But not always. And is leaving necessarily bad? It may seem so in the short term, but may be best for everyone in the long run.


I agree that the cheater and the betrayed separating is not necessarily a bad thing.That doesn't make the affair a good thing.





Married but Happy said:


> Noticing anything isn't assured. How many times do we hear from a BS who had NO clue that anything was wrong? Often! They were happy and complacent the whole time, and thought their relationship was wonderful and perfect - until they found out. This is at least as true for those who never find out.


A friend of mine got divorced.He was "happy and complacent" until his wife suddenly wasn't.Affair?Possibly.

Anyway, eventually he admitted that there were problems but just "things every marriage goes through".Less sex, less time just the two of them etc etc Took him awhile to admit it though.





Married but Happy said:


> Any relationship can fail. Consensual, non-coercive open relationships fail less often, and the same is true for swingers. They generally have better communication to begin with in order to negotiate these arrangements, they have far less to hide, and far less reason to feel any need to hide things or be dishonest. You are completely correct in that you can't fix a broken relationship by opening it up in some way. Yes, it may delay things, or it may accelerate them - neither of which is bad, if the relationship should end anyway.


A lot more people get married and get married for stupid reasons.That's why they fail more.And people that remarry have incredible failure rate so that affects the stats.

Also some stats say that people who had less partners prior to marriage were happier and less likely to divorce.



Sent from my K012 using Tapatalk


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Kerf said:


> Anyway, eventually he admitted that there were problems but just "things every marriage goes through".Less sex, less time just the two of them etc etc Took him awhile to admit it though.
> 
> 
> A lot more people get married and get married for stupid reasons.That's why they fail more.And people that remarry have incredible failure rate so that affects the stats.
> ...


They could not work through their problems so they divorced? I do think many people seem to have unrealisitc expectations of relationships.

Agreed about the failure of 2nd marriages - many people i know who divorced didnt work on their problems but jumped into another relationship. It seems to people keep repeating their mistakes over and over or is it me? I know a couple who went through a nasty divorce infidelity,everything and before the wife remarried to her OM #2 she was confiding in people how she will always love her first husband. Does that sound like a promising start to marriage #2?


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## Kerf (Apr 22, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> *They could not work through their problems so they divorced? I do think many people seem to have unrealisitc expectations of relationships.*
> 
> Agreed about the failure of 2nd marriages - many people i know who divorced didnt work on their problems but jumped into another relationship. It seems to people keep repeating their mistakes over and over or is it me? I know a couple who went through a nasty divorce infidelity,everything and before the wife remarried to her OM #2 she was confiding in people how she will always love her first husband. Does that sound like a promising start to marriage #2?


The wife didn't want to work on their problems.Apparently she felt like he was her brother and not husband anymore.


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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> How do you know? Got anything to back that up? And perhaps the affair isn't what's making them feel something is wrong - it could be that the marriage is in trouble, even when there is no affair, so you can't necessarily link them.


As i've typed before, it's from what i've read, heard and experienced. LS, TAM, SI, Wordpress blogs, etc. Have you ever experienced to be on one of the side in affair ? Have you got anything to back up your statement ?

The time WS started to pull away emotionally and physically because they're trying to hide something and or started to blameshift to BS, or when their office hour got longer and longer, that's when the red flag is waving.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Sometimes, they do still love you - but you're not enough. They have no intention of stabbing you in the back, but that's how the BS feels when they find out. Most never find out, though.


Make no mistake they stab you in the back whether it's the intention or not. Just the statement "they do still love you - you're not enough" is a bad way of thinking. Actually it's the cheater who is not enough for anyone. 

You don't love someone for you, you love them for them. If your primary motive in loving someone is to fill some void in yourself you will fail miserably and it's a selfish motive. Love and selfishness don't go together. I don't believe you can truly love someone and be selfish. That's not really love. It kind of fits the thinking though. It's the same self motivated, self centered thinking that also leads someone to cheat, and also lie about it for years to protect themselves from the fallout. It's the kind of thinking you need to look for when you're dating and avoid. That thinking doesn't make for a good spouse.


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## karr99 (Jun 28, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The BS knows something is wrong but can not imagine it could be that their Ws is cheating so probably live in some form of denial. Serial cheaters like my relative was an expert at covering his tracks and had ajob that made cheating easy he was able to for 15 years or more until his wife walked in on him fvcking one of his mistresses in their lake house. FYI both his kids were cheaters as well. Nice family tradition there.


Yup, always like this. Something is terribly wrong but can't quiet put a pin on it. Then the BS talked to the WS about their problem and the WS gaslighted them, i read in LS thread that there's a BS who had already known that something was wrong but WS called her crazy, control-freak and suggested pills. It's just so vile how some cheaters willing to mindfvcked the person they are married to for the sake of kibbles


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Kerf said:


> A friend of mine got divorced.*He was "happy and complacent" *until his wife suddenly wasn't.Affair?Possibly.
> 
> Anyway, eventually he admitted that there were problems but just "things every marriage goes through".Less sex, less time just the two of them etc etc Took him awhile to admit it though.



I'm so tired of seeing crap like this!

He was happy and he assumed since he was happy all was well. Insert painful eye roll!

Took him a while to admit he knew his wife wasn't happy. Took him a while to admit he ignored and denied that his wife was unhappy. Took him a while to admit that he had the opportunity to save his marriage but he took it for granted and she walked out.

And you suggest an affair was the catalyst? His ignoring her discontent for long enough was the catalyst. 








> Also some stats say that people who had less partners prior to marriage were happier and less likely to divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my K012 using Tapatalk


I've seen those studies. 

1. They're flawe thus the results are questionable.

2. They didn't study relative happiness. They asked about prior sex partners and current marital status.



Prior sex partners has no bearing on the *success* of a marriage. As my own marriage can testify, still married doesn't mean successful marriage and sure as hell doesn't mean happy!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Make no mistake they stab you in the back whether it's the intention or not. Just the statement "they do still love you - you're not enough" is a bad way of thinking. Actually it's the cheater who is not enough for anyone.
> 
> You don't love someone for you, you love them for them. If your primary motive in loving someone is to fill some void in yourself you will fail miserably and it's a selfish motive. Love and selfishness don't go together. I don't believe you can truly love someone and be selfish. That's not really love. It kind of fits the thinking though. It's the same self motivated, self centered thinking that also leads someone to cheat, and also lie about it for years to protect themselves from the fallout. It's the kind of thinking you need to look for when you're dating and avoid. That thinking doesn't make for a good spouse.



This isn't true. Love, contrary to what the priest says during the ceremony, is selfish. Spousal love is wholly based on meeting the other person's emotional needs. That is what makes people fall in love and stay in love. Chemistry is the attractant and meeting needs is the binder. Chemistry often times ebbs and flows but meeting needs binds love.

If your spouse fails to meet your emotional needs after a certain time, you stop loving them. 

So yes, you absolutely do love someone because of how they make you feel. If they make you feel loved, you love them. If they don't make you feel loved, you don't love them. That is selfish. Love is selfish.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm so tired of seeing crap like this!
> 
> He was happy and he assumed since he was happy all was well. Insert painful eye roll!
> 
> ...


Personally the more I read this stuff I really think as far as cheating goes one of the things that seem to stand out to me is that most of the WS I hear and read about lack the ability to bond with there spouse. At least in the way that I think I am to my wife and others I personally have been in a relationship with. As I posted on this thread I think, the deception and even the thought of breaking the bond by being with someone else just doesn't compute. I think most faithful people feel the same way. 

Not to say they won't break up if things go bad, but they really think of their spouse and there marriage as an extension of themselves, which makes it hard to do destructive things to it. Now that is assuming they are not self destructive, which is another issue. 

I think a lot of posts on this thread illustrate this mindset. 

It's like two different species. 

As far as the spouse being unhappy, the only caveat I would add is it's the spouses responsibly to say they are unhappy. After that though all bets are off as far as staying together. Doesn't excuse cheating though.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

double post.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Kerf said:


> The wife didn't want to work on their problems.Apparently she felt like he was her brother and not husband anymore.


Wow...is she dating already?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> How do you know? Got anything to back that up? And perhaps the affair isn't what's making them feel something is wrong - it could be that the marriage is in trouble, even when there is no affair, so you can't necessarily link them.


You are forgetting the TAM CWI tenant: a betrayed spouse can never be challenged for having caused a distance or disconnect in the marriage. It is always the wayward spouse who caused the distance by having an affair. Prior to the affair, the marriage was perfect.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> You are forgetting the TAM CWI tenant: a betrayed spouse can never be challenged for having caused a distance or disconnect in the marriage. It is always the wayward spouse who caused the distance by having an affair. Prior to the affair, the marriage was perfect.


Not really just that cheating is an unacceptable response.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> This* isn't true.* Love, contrary to what the priest says during the ceremony,* is selfish*. Spousal love is *wholly based on meeting the other person's emotional needs*. That is what makes people fall in love and stay in love. Chemistry is the attractant and meeting needs is the binder. Chemistry often times ebbs and flows but meeting needs binds love.
> 
> *If your spouse fails to meet your emotional needs after a certain time, you stop loving them.
> *
> So yes, you absolutely do *love someone because of how they make you feel.* If they make you feel loved, you love them. If they don't make you feel loved, you don't love them. That is selfish. *Love is selfish*.


Thats a whole lot of absolutes thrown in one post. And I agree that what you describe sounds very selfish and emotionally immature. How do you make these determinations for anyone but yourself?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Personally the more I read this stuff I really think as far as cheating goes one of the things that seem to stand out to me is that most of the WS I hear and read about lack the ability to bond with there spouse. At least in the way that I think I am to my wife and others I personally have been in a relationship with. As I posted on this thread I think, the deception and even the thought of breaking the bond by being with someone else just doesn't compute. I think most faithful people feel the same way.
> 
> Not to say they won't break up if things go bad, but they really think of their spouse and there marriage as an extension of themselves, which makes it hard to do destructive things to it. Now that is assuming they are not self destructive, which is another issue.
> 
> ...



I think what you say is valid for some but not for all. I have three very close friends who have had affairs. One of whom has a neurotic need to be admired. She (M) keeps several men chasing her, though she rarely has sex with any of them. She loves her husband and thinks they have a great marriage. She readily admits she needs this admiration from other men even though she also gets it from her husband. He discovered one long term PA, but never confronted her nor gave ultimatum. She is still married and still conducting EA's and occasional PA's.

Another friend (L) also has a need for validation but she only gets backhanded compliments from her husband, like each compliments also has something negative attached. Her husband is extremely needy! Annoyingly so! L is a very loving, giving nurturing soul and at first she loved nurturing her husband but after 12-15 years she got sick of it. They've talked up one side and down the other, even went to marriage counseling, which didn't help. She told him point blank she can't stand his neediness. She has had one long term affair and a few short term EA's. She is still married but not longer having affairs, he is still needy.

My third friend (B) had two long term purely physical affairs. She is no longer married but it had nothing to do with her affairs. Her husband was also extremely needy, but he coupled it with being Uber controlling and demanding. Her husband was also physically sick with a chronic illness which caused him to threaten her when under the influence of opioids. She kept a go bag in her car and other pertinent papers stashed elsewhere. Her affairs about her getting someone else to allow her to be needy. Both affair partners knew from the get go this was not something that would end her marriage, she would not seek a relationship with either when she finally got the nerve to leave.

All 3 bonded with their husbands. Two out of three had that bond break long before any affair. One of the three rebonded.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Not really just that cheating is an unacceptable response.


Just to be clear, I've never suggested nor do I believe cheating is an acceptable response. It fixes nothing within the marriage, nor within yourself. 





Idyit said:


> Thats a whole lot of absolutes thrown in one post. And I agree that what you describe sounds very selfish and emotionally immature. *How do you make these determinations for anyone but yourself?*


The Love Bank


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## Kerf (Apr 22, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm so tired of seeing crap like this!
> 
> He was happy and he assumed since he was happy all was well. Insert painful eye roll!
> 
> ...



He definitely wasn't happy with the lack of sex.He just didn't whine and cry about it.Neither did he want to guilt his wife into giving him sex.

His wife also never indicated there were major issues needed to be addressed.They still talked, he just didn't try to torture a confession out of her.

He never ignored her or turned a blind eye to the issues.



> I've seen those studies.
> 
> 1. They're flawe thus the results are questionable.
> 
> ...



If you say so.I also don't buy stats about open relationships being more successful.As you said yourself, just because people are together doesn't mean they are truly happy.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I think what you say is valid for some but not for all. I have three very close friends who have had affairs. One of whom has a neurotic need to be admired. She (M) keeps several men chasing her, though she rarely has sex with any of them. She loves her husband and thinks they have a great marriage. She readily admits she needs this admiration from other men even though she also gets it from her husband. He discovered one long term PA, but never confronted her nor gave ultimatum. She is still married and still conducting EA's and occasional PA's.
> 
> Another friend (L) also has a need for validation but she only gets backhanded compliments from her husband, like each compliments also has something negative attached. Her husband is extremely needy! Annoyingly so! L is a very loving, giving nurturing soul and at first she loved nurturing her husband but after 12-15 years she got sick of it. They've talked up one side and down the other, even went to marriage counseling, which didn't help. She told him point blank she can't stand his neediness. She has had one long term affair and a few short term EA's. She is still married but not longer having affairs, he is still needy.
> 
> ...


So are you tryiing to say their affairs were justified? As to your first friend her husband sounds weak to put up with that bullsh!t. 

I wonder if youd be as sympathetic if it was their husbands doing the cheating.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Just to be clear, I've never suggested nor do I believe cheating is an acceptable response. It fixes nothing within the marriage, nor within yourself.
> l]


Fair enough..thanks for the clarification...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Kerf said:


> He definitely wasn't happy with the lack of sex.He just didn't whine and cry about it.Neither did he want to guilt his wife into giving him sex.
> 
> His wife also never indicated there were major issues needed to be addressed.They still talked, he just didn't try to torture a confession out of her.
> 
> ...


Not shocked at all and would not be shocked if his wife has another guy in mind.Her excuses sound flimsy - like a woman who wanted her freedom and wanted to get rid of the husband. 

I notice you said he wasnt happy either but he didnt dump the marriage. Married in 2017 seems more and more like a fools errand.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm so tired of seeing crap like this!
> 
> He was happy and he assumed since he was happy all was well. Insert painful eye roll!


*Spot on.* With that I'll reiterate, again and again, the vast majority of the time, when a woman cheats on her husband she's has lost significant romantic interest in him. Bear in mine that love and romantic love are different dogs.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> *Spot on.* With that I'll reiterate, again and again, the vast majority of the time, when a woman cheats on her husband she's has lost significant romantic interest in him. Bear in mine that love and romantic love are different dogs.


It sounds like you are making excuses for female infidelty - so enlighten us what about when men cheat? What is their excuse?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Maybe the one that hat said the bs isn't mature enough to handle it has it all wrong. The CS isn't mature enough to be in a honest and loving relationship. 

Cheating is betraying the one you are supposed to be honest and true to.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

ABHale said:


> Maybe the one that hat said the bs isn't mature enough to handle it has it all wrong. The CS isn't mature enough to be in a honest and loving relationship.
> 
> Cheating is betraying the one you are supposed to be honest and true to.


People will rationalize anything including cheating but I think you nailed it with this post.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> The Love Bank


The love bank concept is helpful in preparation or warning I suppose but I dont think it's a great way to execute interaction with a spouse. It paints a pretty transactional image of love. Your portrayal was even moreso but I didn't read anything directly in your link that stated "love is selfish". 

For me I don't want to have the kind of relationship whos health is solely determined by what has been given/gotten. Rather than selfish, I believe that the strongest expressions of love are when it isn't being returned.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> People will rationalize anything including cheating but I think you nailed it with this post.


Thanks


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Idyit said:


> For me I don't want to have the kind of relationship whos health is solely determined by what has been given/gotten. Rather than selfish, I believe that the strongest expressions of love are when it isn't being returned.


Agreed. On that formula given/received spouse witih a long term debilitating illness is expendable I guess. Since they will receive ore than they get in a lot of ways.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Idyit said:


> The love bank concept is helpful in preparation or warning I suppose but I dont think it's a great way to execute interaction with a spouse. It paints a pretty transactional image of love. Your portrayal was even moreso but I didn't read anything directly in your link that stated "love is selfish".
> 
> For me I don't want to have the kind of relationship whos health is solely determined by what has been given/gotten. Rather than selfish, I believe that the strongest expressions of love are when it isn't being returned.


I believe you have a foundation of unconditional spousal love. I suppose in some respects that may be accurate in a small way.

Let me try to explain what I mean another way?

We fall in love with someone to whom we are attracted (chemistry) and get along with (companionship) but the love bond is a two way street. I am attracted to you and we get long great but you're not attracted to me so no bond. Eventually, my unrequited love will fade because it is unrequited and that hurts. Simple.

I marry you because we are in love. Not because I love you and you don't love me. I love you and you love me. Love is a verb. We fell in love because our mutual attraction allowed us to behave in loving ways toward each other. I made you feel loved and you made me feel loved. But what happens if you stop feeling loved by me? All the ways I made you feel loved in our relationship have slowly stopped happening and it's been a very very long time since you've felt any sort of special feeling from me to you. And to add insult to injury I go from not doing loving things toward you to doing rather hateful, neglectful, and even sometimes means things. I laugh when someone makes fun of you. I never hug you or hold you. I mostly ignore you when I'm home unless I have something to ***** about. You've brought this up to me and things get better but soon I go right back to neglecting you. It's been 10 years since we've been having this conversation and I still neglect you and now I expect you to just get the **** over it and accept me as I am.

Do you still love me?

Why?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed. On that formula given/received spouse witih a long term debilitating illness is expendable I guess. Since they will receive ore than they get in a lot of ways.


Here is what a spouse with a chronic illness might say about a spouse. "My wife is the best thing that every happened to me. She is so funny she cracks me up even when I'm in pain. She always has a kind word even for jerk next door who lets his happy dogs destroy a quiet evening. She is smart and resourceful and I am in awe of her ability to learn new languages so easily. She really connects with people and pays attention to how they feel. She rarely feels down but when she does she lets me cheer her up."

Here is what a chronically ill spouse might say about a spouse that shows straight up need. "My wife is the best and I'm so lucky. She takes such good care of me. She never lets me feel down but also wont let me feel like a burden to her. She is an excellent mother and the kids adore her."

The first chronically ill spouse is talking about a wife as the whole person, what he sees in her, what he enjoys about her, what she is like and what makes her attractive to him

The second guy talks about how his needs are met. How much she gives.

Which wife feels loved?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Here is what a spouse with a chronic illness might say about a spouse. "My wife is the best thing that every happened to me. She is so funny she cracks me up even when I'm in pain. She always has a kind word even for jerk next door who lets his happy dogs destroy a quiet evening. She is smart and resourceful and I am in awe of her ability to learn new languages so easily. She really connects with people and pays attention to how they feel. She rarely feels down but when she does she lets me cheer her up."
> 
> Here is what a chronically ill spouse might say about a spouse that shows straight up need. "My wife is the best and I'm so lucky. She takes such good care of me. She never lets me feel down but also wont let me feel like a burden to her. She is an excellent mother and the kids adore her."
> 
> ...


One is preferable but both are OK - it depends where the ill spouse is coming from. Many chronically ill people especially dealing with cancer cant even verbalize that since the disease takes so much out of them. TBH it still sounds like you are making an excuse for a spouse to cheat - like in the case of your friend. Like I said marriage 2017 seeming more and more like a fools errand.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Kerf said:


> Also some stats say that people who had less partners prior to marriage were happier and less likely to divorce.


That's very misleading, I think, because it lacks sufficient context and does not account for other variables. Better success correlates with marrying older, higher education, better financial stability, etc. Having few partners may only mean that you don't know what you're missing (and likelier to stay when sex is poor), and may also correlate with higher religiosity, which may mean a religious aversion to divorce. Stats are useful, but need to be used with care and in the correct context.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Not really just that cheating is an unacceptable response.


Agree - but if the BS has already broken vows (but other than cheating), that's more acceptable? I'm not sure I would agree with that, either.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@Truthseeker1

Oi Vey! How many times and how many ways must I state cheating is always the wrong thing to do!

It really sounds like you think a betrayed spouse shouldn't be held accountable for his/her side of the street because that would be excusing the affair. I believe there are people who are too damaged to really be married, like my first friend. But there are others who were in bad marriages AND THEN the affair happened. This is NOT excusing the cheating.

I've been the care giver and I've seen the difference first hand. 

"I love you because you take such good care of me." This person is primarily needy. This person's spouse is going to get tired of caring for their needs unless the spouse can reciprocate. 

"I love you because you are an awesome person." This is a spouse who reciprocates because they appreciate their spouse for more than taking good care of them.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Agree - but if the BS has already broken vows (but other than cheating), that's more acceptable? I'm not sure I would agree with that, either.


That seems to be the common out for people who make excues for cheating. The BS has already broken vows ok...infidelity and physical abuse are worse trangressions than many others but if the Bs has indeed been neglectful than by all means separate or divorce but dont make excuses for fvcking someone else.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I believe you have a foundation of unconditional spousal love. I suppose in some respects that may be accurate in a small way.
> 
> Let me try to explain what I mean another way?
> 
> ...


I like this explanation much better. Sure, after "a very very long time" of neglect the love for a spouse can fade or disappear. Add to that the derision and hateful stuff and it would make a lot of sense that a person would no longer love, want to love or desire to be around that spouse. 

This is an extreme example that doesn't really fit my initial response to your quote. In that you said "love is selfish". There is a long way between loving someone and they love you - to love is selfish - to the example quoted.

Your last two questions I am dealing with right now. My marriage is closer to your quoted example than to anything I would call ideal. It's been subtle and its also been in my face. Its gotten worse in the last couple of years. For a very long time I did not know why she behaved this way or what I could do to challenge, change or make it different. Now I know. It's freeing and heartbreaking at the same time. She is ill and there is nothing I can do about it.

I loved the girl I fell in love with and sacrificed greatly to do so. I loved my wife and kids to my own detriment. I still love her but in a different way. She will always be dear to me but our relationship has forever changed with the, "now I know".

Do I love her? Yes, very much.
Why? Because I have tried to do different and failed. I loved her because commitment means a lot to me even if there is an end point.

--Will I always love her? Yes and No. At some point I will love her but from a distance.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> @Truthseeker1
> 
> Oi Vey! How many times and how many ways must I state cheating is always the wrong thing to do!
> 
> ...


sorry I dont see the first one as being bad but is the second one prefereable - sure. But you are talking about degrees of difference - some people who are stricken cant even get the first one out and are downright nasty. Is that them or the disease?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@Idyit - i many if not mist instances infidelity does not occur under extreme circumstances like extreme neglect, etc...it occurs because mainly because cheaters are selfish and entitled. Does the marriage have problems? Sure but I've written this before cheating in response to those problems is like using nuclear weapons to settle a trade dispute. Its pretty simple - CHEATERS DO NOT CARE ABOUT THEIR BS and put their family second buy bringing a thrid person into their marriage.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Duplicate.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> sorry I dont see the first one as being bad but is the second one prefereable - sure. But you are talking about degrees of difference - some people who are stricken cant even get the first one out and are downright nasty. Is that them or the disease?


It's them. BTDT.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Idyit said:


> I like this explanation much better. Sure, after "a very very long time" of neglect the love for a spouse can fade or disappear. Add to that the derision and hateful stuff and it would make a lot of sense that a person would no longer love, want to love or desire to be around that spouse.
> 
> This is an extreme example that doesn't really fit my initial response to your quote. In that you said "love is selfish". There is a long way between loving someone and they love you - to love is selfish - to the example quoted.
> 
> ...



I am truly sorry for the pain you are feeling. 

I will always love my husband, he's been a good friend and we easily get along. But it's been a long time since I've loved him and even longer since I've felt he loved me. It usually feels like a habit, a convenience, and cost effective.

I hope your distance bring peace.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @Idyit - i many if not mist instances infidelity does not occurr under extreme circumstances like extreme neglect, etc...it occurs because mainly becuase cheaters are selfish and entitled. Does the marriage have problems? Sure but I've written this before cheating in response to those problems is like using nuclear weapons to settle a trade dispute. Its pretty simple - CHEATERS DO NOT CARE ABOUT THEIR BS and put their family second buy bringing a thrid person into their marriage.


I get you TS. The response given was about what love is or is not. And a challenge to the notion that love IS sulfish.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I am truly sorry for the pain you are feeling.
> 
> I will always love my husband, he's been a good friend and we easily get along. But it's been a long time since I've loved him and even longer since I've felt he loved me. It usually feels like a habit, a convenience, and cost effective.
> 
> I hope your distance bring peace.


Wow. Your response saddens me. Not sure which of our situations is worse.

This edit is posted after my response to TS. It struck me that the loss of intimacy (love / bond) can feel like a betrayal. A betrayal of vows, intent or bond...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Idyit said:


> I get you TS. The response given was about what love is or is not. And a challenge to the notion that love IS sulfish.


In my own life I have friends and relatives who have cheated and been cheated on - exactly one of those marriages involved extreme verbal abuse and it went BOTH ways. It was not some monster BS and innocent Ws - but one chose to break the vows first. In the other cases the WS was either into the illicit sex, looking to trade up or simply felt entitled to it. I've spent too many hours in the middle of such nonsense as a kid and an adult.

BTW I was cheated on as well. Not fun. But my ex was looking to trade up to a guy with more $$$...and from what I hear she has.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> In my own life I have friends and relatives who have cheated and been cheated on - exactly one of those marriages involved extreme verbal abuse and it went BOTH ways. It was not some monster BS and innocent Ws - but one chose to break the vows first. In the other cases the WS was either into the illicit sex, looking to trade up or simply felt entitled to it. I've spent too many hours in the middle of such nonsense as a kid and an adult.
> 
> BTW I was cheated on as well. Not fun. But my ex was looking to trade up to a guy with more $$$...and from what I hear she has.


Yup. Betrayal of what should be the most intimate relationship in a persons life is devastating. Realizing the intimacy was lost long or never was truly there before the betrayal is sickening.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> I think what you say is valid for some but not for all. I have three very close friends who have had affairs. One of whom has a neurotic need to be admired. She (M) keeps several men chasing her, though she rarely has sex with any of them. She loves her husband and thinks they have a great marriage. She readily admits she needs this admiration from other men even though she also gets it from her husband. He discovered one long term PA, but never confronted her nor gave ultimatum. She is still married and still conducting EA's and occasional PA's.
> 
> Another friend (L) also has a need for validation but she only gets backhanded compliments from her husband, like each compliments also has something negative attached. Her husband is extremely needy! Annoyingly so! L is a very loving, giving nurturing soul and at first she loved nurturing her husband but after 12-15 years she got sick of it. They've talked up one side and down the other, even went to marriage counseling, which didn't help. She told him point blank she can't stand his neediness. She has had one long term affair and a few short term EA's. She is still married but not longer having affairs, he is still needy.
> 
> ...


You need better friends.

Interesting that you rail against husbands who don't give their wives what they need and you have 3 friends that are all cheaters. This kind of thinking seems to fit together.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Why can't all these ****s just do the honorable thing and leave. Nah I don't buy any of this. If you are unhappy talk about it an leave. Again all this talk just reinforces my belief there are faithful people and people who are dishonest and selfish people. God help you if you get stuck with the latter.

A word to the wise if you meet someone whose fidelity is tied into their own happiness or fulfillment in the relationship run like the wind. There are NO marriages where you won't have points in time where you feel unhappy and unfulfilled. None. So people like that are a trap.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

karr99 said:


> There's a conversation about this in "Did i cheat on him thread", and i got surprised by the reason from the "should not tell" camp. One said that it is a not good idea for a woman to confess an affair, unless she is sure the man is mature enough to be able to hear it. One worried because BS might not willing to let go (and marriage is about forgiving each other), one said that the only one motivating factor to confess and that is to receive forgiveness.
> 
> Shouldn't honesty, respect and equal partnership be the main reasons ?
> Is hiding an ended affair a noble lie ?
> ...


In general, they should. And I base this on what I did.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I think it depends on the cheating.

If my wife was out and got into a situation and had a ONS. And it never happened again. She learned her lesson and was feeling guilty about it. Then I would rather she didn't tell. It would most likely ruin our relationship. I would never be able to trust her again and I would lose a tremendous amount of respect for her.

If it was an ongoing affair, I would want to know. It would have virtually the same results as a ONS, just more severe. It would ruin our relationship. I would no longer respect her or trust her. The relationship would be over.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> It sounds like you are making excuses for female infidelity - so enlighten us what about when men cheat? What is their excuse?


Not excuses. Just reality. There are three factors present in cheating, or most other willful torts, differing in their effect on an individual, male or female; incentive, opportunity, and rationalization. Loss of interest (and respect) is the incentive.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> That seems to be the common out for people who make excues for cheating. The BS has already broken vows ok...infidelity and physical abuse are worse trangressions than many others but if the Bs has indeed been neglectful than by all means separate or divorce but dont make excuses for fvcking someone else.


Why not make excuses? I'm sure the spouse who broke other vows made plenty. Why the special dispensation for cheating, vs. any other transgression. I don't buy that. I also don't think it's productive to try to rate what's worse, or relative degrees of fault. However you screw it up, you're just as as fault, and "fvcking" someone else isn't any worse that chronic neglect.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Why not make excuses? I'm sure the spouse who broke other vows made plenty. Why the special dispensation for cheating, vs. any other transgression. I don't buy that. I also don't think it's productive to try to rate what's worse, or relative degrees of fault. However you screw it up, you're just as as fault, and "fvcking" someone else isn't any worse that chronic neglect.


If you believe that adultery is no worse than perceived neglect than we will have to agree to disagree. Like I said you are excusing cheating - lots of people do.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> If you believe that adultery is no worse than perceived neglect than we will have to agree to disagree. Like I said you are excusing cheating - lots of people do.


If it's "perceived" and not real, we can agree. But there are some fvcktarded spouses who have lost the right to respect or fidelity, in which case I think the WS is just doing their best to survive it - which is badly, of course. Cheating is a transgression - I don't automatically assume - or believe - it is worse than any other transgression of marital vows.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

I think most husbands would prefer she would just leave him for a guy she met and banged.

" _BROOKLYN — A Long Island woman has been convicted of hiring a hitman to murder her husband in 2013 after she failed to poison him — twice."_


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Bubblegum25 said:


> I think if the affair is ended before the spouse gets caught then there is no need to hurt the partner.
> Being honest at that point would cause just unnecessary pain since the affair was ended already and without it being a forced action.
> People go on about honesty at all costs but like everything when it is applied blindly it can cause more harm than a lie. I don't really see the point of confessing at that point since the affair isn't gonna affect the partner any longer.
> 
> I say this as having been cheated by my ex on so it's not a biased opinion.


Because without consequences for the actions of cheating, a lesson is not learned. "Okay, I got my side-sex-thrills last year, What she doesn't know won't hurt her, so I'll do it again and again and again.". Thus, creating the serial cheater. I would gather only a few will feel guilty about it and never do it again (ONS situations) - and at best, maybe then.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> *
> If your not comfortable with it then don't do it. Period.* I think just like people are uncomfortable with the fact that in many cases a cheater goes undetected people are uncomfortable with the fact that sometimes an RA does help the BS. In addition people talk about the injustice of infidelity and how a BS needs to live with it perhaps the other form of injustice is that for many an RA is looked at less harshly than the original A. I find cheaters are willing to live with injustice so long as it swings in their favor but not so much when things even up or swing the other way. Human nature I suppose. *But I repeat do not do anything you are uncomfortable with. Stick to what you think is the best course of action for YOU because the purpose is for YOU to heal. *
> 
> One last question would anyone really want to live with a WS who would not extend them the same forgiveness they are asking for?


Agreed. She gave me a get-out-of-jail card to do so... but I've not used it. Not at the top of my list of things to do.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

@sokillme asked me this on the other thread:

_By the way jld does that include any potential affair dug may have? You will only find out if you mature enough to handle it? This kind of thinking doesn't concern you?_

I have great trust in my husband, sokillme. Tremendous trust. He is a very mature and intelligent man. 

If he had an affair and did not tell me, I think I would need to objectively--and humbly--consider why.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TaDor said:


> Agreed. She gave me a get-out-of-jail card to do so... but I've not used it. Not at the top of my list of things to do.


An out of jail free card or hall pass is not an RA nor does it even the score. Think about this an affair is both a sucker punch and a blow to the self esteem a hall pass does not accomplish that since the cheater is expecting it and approved it. *A hall pass is in fact the WS's get out of jail free card.* It is the WS trying to further control the situation. Period. The Ws didn't ask permission to screw someone else so why would the BS?


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> If it's "perceived" and not real, we can agree. But there are some fvcktarded spouses who have lost the right to respect or fidelity, in which case I think the WS is just doing their best to survive it - which is badly, of course. *Cheating is a transgression - I don't automatically assume - or believe - it is worse than any other transgression of marital vows.*


MbH,

Have you been Cheated On in marriage?

My own personal opinions on infidelity were abruptly changed when I became a participant rather than a casual observer.

Like posted earlier... if things are so bad, then just leave and D. Don't take the cowardly path of cheating.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

RWB said:


> MbH,
> 
> Have you been Cheated On in marriage?
> 
> ...


Yes. My ex cheated - at least an EA, and probably a PA. I was already planning to divorce her, so it really had no impact on me.

You - and many others - make it sound so easy to just leave and D. It isn't, whether you're the WS or the BS. There are almost always many conflicting priorities. It's usually a horribly difficult decision, especially when there are good things to balance the bad. To say otherwise is at best naïve.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> An out of jail free card or hall pass is not an RA nor does it even the score. Think about this an affair is both a sucker punch and a blow to the self esteem a hall pass does not accomplish that since the cheater is expecting it and approved it. *A hall pass is in fact the WS's get out of jail free card.** It is the WS trying to further control the situation.* Period. The Ws didn't ask permission to screw someone else so why would the BS?


You know my story Truth, and this is what I keep coming back to. My WS tried so hard to control the situation once he suspected me of having an EA. At that time, I knew only what he had confessed to me - that he engaged in one affair and that it had been over for years. I got one text that said, "sorry" and we never spoke of it again nor did I confide in a soul. I was devastated on the inside, but my children were still minors so I went about the business of taking care of my family. That included dealing with my mother's estate after she died and going back to work and graduate school. In the meantime, my H went on about his life as if nothing had happened except we stopped having sex and he mostly slept on the couch in the basement - claiming it was for his bad back. 

The thing is, had he left me alone, I would have eventually come to see that the EA wasn't worth it - the man was on the other side of the world, so no danger of a PA - and my H and I would probably be in a better place now. At that time I had convinced myself that one affair a long time ago wasn't the worst thing that could happen in a marriage and my H and I were getting along better. But his relentless and obsessive need to control what I was doing by installing keyloggers, hacking my phone, reading my journal led us to MC where I finally learned that his infidelity was much worse than I had thought. 

So, should you tell a spouse? My H's initial response was that the secret credit card debt I found was used for his mother and, since we were helping to support her at that time, it was a somewhat plausible reason. Had he stuck with that, I probably wouldn't have pursued it further. I would have been angry about it, but gotten past it. I know he expected to confess and receive forgiveness easily. I think about this often - how would things be different for me, if I hadn't discovered his old credit card bills and pushed him for an answer? Sometimes I wish I could cut out that part of my brain that knows and that decided to engage in RA's as a coping mechanism.To this day I am sure he is stunned that his confession led us to where we are now - on the brink of a real separation and that he may possibly have to leave his home for something he did over 15 years ago. It's always about the lying and the abuse that flows from that and there is usually other problems in the marriage too, which is certainly the case with mine. It's not really about the sex. 

I'm not saying I'm not glad that I now know why he was so cold toward me back then, but it's a double-edged sword. The truth helps you make sense of your life, but you'll never view it the same way. I was going through old photographs yesterday and every one that I looked at during the time he was cheating felt tainted. So I changed my mindset and focused on the joy I felt being with my children at that time. It's a never ending process getting past the cheating, the lying, the rug sweeping, the blaming, the shear, raw, pain. So I think the advice I would give to someone now is to think carefully about confessing to a long ago affair.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Some people make the logic fault of thinking that "what he (or she) doesn't know won't hurt em." And figure that if they never say anything it is the same thing as having not cheated on them.

The problem, of the many, is that it is such a violation, an offense to those of us that do not want to share in their illicit behavior.

To be blunt, it made me physically ill to realize that I on many occasions both indulged in intercourse with my ex, but also oral sex on the same night as when she was out getting her freak on.

Disgusting! She deliberately exposed me to all fluids, you know? That is extreme hostility.

And yeah, I have an HPV-related throat cancer now all these years later.

It always comes out, the cheating doesn't go to the grave.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> An out of jail free card or hall pass is not an RA nor does it even the score. Think about this an affair is both a sucker punch and a blow to the self esteem a hall pass does not accomplish that since the cheater is expecting it and approved it. *A hall pass is in fact the WS's get out of jail free card.* It is the WS trying to further control the situation. Period. The Ws didn't ask permission to screw someone else so why would the BS?


Yeah I know that. I am also aware that there would be a difference in me saying "Hey - I'm going use that card from a year ago, okay?" vs... starting an extreme kinky PA, and 1-2 months later, she finds out or I finally tell her or whatever.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

I'm on the fence with this, if someone had an affair and got away with it, but has since recommitted to the marriage and the affair is long done, then confessing would just be for the cheaters benefit, to rid them of the guilt they have. Confessing would then destroy the partner, potentially screw up children's lives with the divorce. In this case I think it's better to take it to the grave.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

jld said:


> @sokillme asked me this on the other thread:
> 
> _By the way jld does that include any potential affair dug may have? You will only find out if you mature enough to handle it? This kind of thinking doesn't concern you?_
> 
> ...


My wife has tremendous trust in me. So much that when we finalized our divorce/child orders - that I have everything I could legally get. She said recently she trusts me 100%. I still notice the hurt when I told her and our MC that she doesn't have that with me. Too bad, but its gonna take a while. Longer than I thought.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> You need better friends.
> 
> Interesting that you rail against husbands who don't give their wives what they need and you have 3 friends that are all cheaters. This kind of thinking seems to fit together.



I hope one day you heal enough to stop painting everything with primary colors. Those women are incredible and anyone would be lucky to have such friends. I don't deserve them.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> I hope one day you heal enough to stop painting everything with primary colors. Those women are incredible and anyone would be lucky to have such friends. I don't deserve them.


And they all treat there husbands like garbage. Guess what they will do it to you one day too. When they do remember I warned you. Character is character. I didn't need anyone to cheat on me to or be damaged to have enough sense to see that.

Keep an eye on your husband when they are around.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> *You* - and many others - make it sound so easy to just leave and D. It isn't, whether you're the WS *or the BS*. There are almost always many conflicting priorities. It's usually a horribly difficult decision, especially when there are good things to balance the bad. To say otherwise is at best naïve.


MbH,

Never meant to paint sides one way or another. I was just stating what I wish my WW would of decided D before she cheated. 

So easy to D? I didn't. Against every piece of advice from my family. Even my counselor said it was a 1 in a 100. It was that bad. The dark side for sure. 
_
"There are almost always many conflicting priorities."_ Amen to that. My children were all 22+, but I "we" were still footing bills... Mortgage, Law School for daughter, loans, etc... 

I had 30 years "invested" with this woman. Mother of my kids. 

_"It's usually a horribly difficult decision."_ Spot on. R with a serial cheater is without the most difficult decision I have made in my +58 year.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

RWB said:


> MbH,
> 
> Never meant to paint sides one way or another. I was just stating what I wish my WW would of decided D before she cheated.
> 
> ...


I understand. I wish my ex had just left - or that I'd left her years earlier when it was clear our marriage would never be what I had hoped. Alas, that didn't happen, but I eventually did reach my limit and did decide to leave - and I managed to not cheat on her, despite temptation and opportunity.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TaDor said:


> My wife has tremendous trust in me. So much that when we finalized our divorce/child orders - that I have everything I could legally get. She said recently she trusts me 100%. I still notice the hurt when I told her and our MC that she doesn't have that with me. Too bad, but its gonna take a while. Longer than I thought.


You are much older than she is, about 15 years older, correct? You were late 30s and she was early 20s when you got together, no?

Honest question, TaDor: Do you think you took advantage of her youth? Are you still taking advantage of it?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

RWB said:


> MbH,
> 
> Never meant to paint sides one way or another. I was just stating what I wish my WW would of decided D before she cheated.
> 
> ...


Can I ask you a question? I'm not being snarky but I would truly like to know what you gained by staying wiht a serial cheater? Are you truly happy? I'm just curious on your view of things.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TaDor said:


> Yeah I know that. I am also aware that there would be a difference in me saying "Hey - I'm going use that card from a year ago, okay?" vs... starting an extreme kinky PA, and 1-2 months later, she finds out or I finally tell her or whatever.


Exactly - a hall pass is not an RA - not by a long shot. I also think any Bs especially BHs who constantly threaten a RA are not going to do sh!t. It is usually the quiet ones who decide and execute an RA,. D or whatever. Remember an affair is a sucker punch as well as a blow to the self esteem - a hall pass wont do either IMO.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> And they all treat there husbands like garbage. Guess what they will do it to you one day too. When they do remember I warned you. Character is character. I didn't need anyone to cheat on me to or be damaged to have enough sense to see that.
> 
> *Keep an eye on your husband when they are around.*




HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA! He should be so lucky!

None of them treat their husbands like garbage. You really can't make assumptions based on your bitterness.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> I'm on the fence with this, if someone had an affair and got away with it, but has since recommitted to the marriage and the affair is long done, then confessing would just be for the cheaters benefit, to rid them of the guilt they have. Confessing would then destroy the partner, potentially screw up children's lives with the divorce. In this case I think it's better to take it to the grave.


Exactly what I've been trying to say. If it's in the past, over and done with, will absolutely never happen again, and the marriage is otherwise a good one, confessing just places the cheaters burden of guilt onto the spouse. Carrying guilt around is a heavy burden but those dragging bitterness around can't see any other burden but their own.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA! He should be so lucky!
> 
> None of them treat their husbands like garbage. You really can't make assumptions based on your bitterness.


Cheating on your spouse IS treating them like garbage dont you think?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

blahfridge said:


> You know my story Truth, and this is what I keep coming back to. My WS tried so hard to control the situation once he suspected me of having an EA. At that time, I knew only what he had confessed to me - that he engaged in one affair and that it had been over for years. I got one text that said, "sorry" and we never spoke of it again nor did I confide in a soul. I was devastated on the inside, but my children were still minors so I went about the business of taking care of my family. That included dealing with my mother's estate after she died and going back to work and graduate school. In the meantime, my H went on about his life as if nothing had happened except we stopped having sex and he mostly slept on the couch in the basement - claiming it was for his bad back.
> 
> The thing is, had he left me alone, I would have eventually come to see that the EA wasn't worth it - the man was on the other side of the world, so no danger of a PA - and my H and I would probably be in a better place now. At that time I had convinced myself that one affair a long time ago wasn't the worst thing that could happen in a marriage and my H and I were getting along better. But his relentless and obsessive need to control what I was doing by installing keyloggers, hacking my phone, reading my journal led us to MC where I finally learned that his infidelity was much worse than I had thought.
> 
> ...


Your husband had a PA correct? An EA does not make things "even" - not by a long shot. Dont be so hard on yourself.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> I'm on the fence with this, if someone had an affair and got away with it, but has since recommitted to the marriage and the affair is long done, then confessing would just be for the cheaters benefit, to rid them of the guilt they have. Confessing would then destroy the partner, potentially screw up children's lives with the divorce. In this case I think it's better to take it to the grave.


Most cheaters dont need encouragement to lie and be selfish which is why many dont confess. IMO when a BS finds out that a cheater has been covering for years (eveni f they stopped cheating) then they have every right to believe the marriage was a lie and ditch it ASAP.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Most cheaters dont need encouragement to lie and be selfish which is why many dont confess. IMO when a BS finds out that a cheater has been covering for years (eveni f they stopped cheating) then they have every right to believe the marriage was a lie and ditch it ASAP.


My wife cheated on me and my life has been filled with anxiety, panic attacks, feeling worthless, even over a decade later. I assume it will always be there, and the periods of depression that happen. I can run marathons, I make a good salary, graduate degree, doesn't matter, I feel like a pile of worthless **** most of the time. I just assume to have never known, assuming she re-commited to the marriage and everything was fine as it is today. the only problem is being in the marriage makes me feel inadequate, depressed, and it all stems from the cheating, it's the ultimate rejection for a man, one I'll never get over. There's nothing she can do about it at this point. it just is what it is.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> My wife cheated on me and my life has been filled with anxiety, panic attacks, feeling worthless, even over a decade later. I assume it will always be there, and the periods of depression that happen. I can run marathons, I make a good salary, graduate degree, doesn't matter, I feel like a pile of worthless **** most of the time. I just assume to have never known, assuming she re-commited to the marriage and everything was fine as it is today. the only problem is being in the marriage makes me feel inadequate, depressed, and it all stems from the cheating, it's the ultimate rejection for a man, one I'll never get over. There's nothing she can do about it at this point. it just is what it is.


But what are YOU doing to help YOU. Do you want to be with her? What were her consequences? *How are YOU worthless? She is the fvcking cheater not you.* Perhaps you continue to experience these things because you have not done the work on yourself and/or still live with the source of those problems?


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

jld said:


> You are much older than she is, about 15 years older, correct? You were late 30s and she was early 20s when you got together, no?
> 
> Honest question, TaDor: Do you think you took advantage of her youth? Are you still taking advantage of it?


Huh? Not like she was a teenager or something. Geez.
She was just short of turning 26. I was 40. So today, 32 vs 47. Her sister was in her early 20s when she married a 50+ year old, they had a good 20yr marriage until he died recently.

So no... my wife was not a little girl, I didn't take advantage of her. Hell, a month or so before we meet, I had dated a 21yr old and a 40yr old. I was hoping for a relationship out of the 40yr old... but she was nuts. The 21yr old was for fun and we're friends (really - just friends. I was giving her advice on talking with her BF last night).


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Exactly - a hall pass is not an RA - not by a long shot. I also think any Bs especially BHs who constantly threaten a RA are not going to do sh!t. It is usually the quiet ones who decide and execute an RA,. D or whatever. Remember an affair is a sucker punch as well as a blow to the self esteem - a hall pass wont do either IMO.


I haven't threatened RA to the wife. And besides, I'm not looking to add more pain and destruction to our relationship.
What good would come of it. Kind of childish, no? "I got you back - I banged 4 chicks last month!"?

What would hurt her... breaking up and being done with it. 

And any woman I would meet in this sort of future, I can honestly say "I did not cheat on my wife or anyone else -ever."


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> My wife cheated on me and my life has been filled with anxiety, panic attacks, feeling worthless, even over a decade later. I assume it will always be there, and the periods of depression that happen. I can run marathons, I make a good salary, graduate degree, doesn't matter, I feel like a pile of worthless **** most of the time. the only problem is being in the marriage makes me feel inadequate, depressed, and it all stems from the cheating, it's the ultimate rejection for a man, one I'll never get over. There's nothing she can do about it at this point. it just is what it is.


You need therapy. Be mad or upset about the cheating, it had nothing to do with you. Everything to do with HER.

Start going to the gym, talk to a therapist and work on you.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TaDor said:


> I haven't threatened RA to the wife. And besides, I'm not looking to add more pain and destruction to our relationship.
> What good would come of it. Kind of childish, no? "I got you back - I banged 4 chicks last month!"?
> 
> What would hurt her... breaking up and being done with it.
> ...


The thing is people who are going to do things - simply do them. They dont huff and puff - they simply do. Thats been my experience anyway. I know a guy very well who had an RA - no announcement just did it.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

knobcreek said:


> I'm on the fence with this, if someone had an affair and got away with it, but has since recommitted to the marriage and the affair is long done, then confessing would just be for the cheaters benefit, to rid them of the guilt they have. Confessing would then destroy the partner, potentially screw up children's lives with the divorce. In this case I think it's better to take it to the grave.


That is what I tell my wife whenever she goes away with her girlfriends "if you cheat, please don't tell me; you get to live with the guilt, I don't need to live with the humiliation".


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> That is what I tell my wife whenever she goes away with her girlfriends "if you cheat, please don't tell me; you get to live with the guilt, I don't need to live with the humiliation".


The humiliation is terrible, if I didn't have children I probably would've killed myself years ago from it, you can't get away from it ever, it's been over a decade, done therapy, meditation, it's not a natural state for a man and it's not one he ever recovers from.

At 39 I can still do 100 continuous push-ups, probably 8% BF, I run marathons, got my undergrad, an MBA from a good school, I make 165K a year as an executive manager. It's all meaningless, I'm a cuckold and there's nothing worse for a man. I wish I never knew, or she divorced me under a different guise to be honest. Now I'm just waiting for the kids to be grown and I'm moving to 80 acres to be by myself to get away from the constant humiliation and anxiety it has caused me.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> The humiliation is terrible, if I didn't have children I probably would've killed myself years ago from it, you can't get away from it ever, it's been over a decade, done therapy, meditation, it's not a natural state for a man and it's not one he ever recovers from.
> 
> 
> 
> At 39 I can still do 100 continuous push-ups, probably 8% BF, I run marathons, got my undergrad, an MBA from a good school, I make 165K a year as an executive manager. It's all meaningless, I'm a cuckold and there's nothing worse for a man. I wish I never knew, or she divorced me under a different guise to be honest. Now I'm just waiting for the kids to be grown and I'm moving to 80 acres to be by myself to get away from the constant humiliation and anxiety it has caused me.



@knobcreek that's all on you. You have the power to control you - no one else does. You're only a cuckold if she's cheating. Perhaps you were cuckolded at one point.

You said "years ago" so I assume you either R'd or D'd.

If you R'd and you still feel this way then it's on you to get antidepressants and divorce papers signed.

Staying in this state around your kids means you're now toxic for them. Change your state of mind.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## growing_weary (Jul 23, 2017)

knobcreek said:


> The humiliation is terrible, if I didn't have children I probably would've killed myself years ago from it, you can't get away from it ever, it's been over a decade, done therapy, meditation, it's not a natural state for a man and it's not one he ever recovers from.
> 
> At 39 I can still do 100 continuous push-ups, probably 8% BF, I run marathons, got my undergrad, an MBA from a good school, I make 165K a year as an executive manager. It's all meaningless, I'm a cuckold and there's nothing worse for a man. I wish I never knew, or she divorced me under a different guise to be honest. Now I'm just waiting for the kids to be grown and I'm moving to 80 acres to be by myself to get away from the constant humiliation and anxiety it has caused me.



Are you still in therapy? Did they help at all? Could you see a different therapist? This amount of humiliation seems a bit extreme, but I'm female and ~ 2 months out. I realize everyone is different, but is there somewhere else you can get help? Is it a pride thing? Is it a male thing? I'm really trying to understand. Do you have people to talk to, do you hang out with friends a lot? What do you do to cope each day?


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

growing_weary said:


> Are you still in therapy? Did they help at all? Could you see a different therapist? This amount of humiliation seems a bit extreme, but I'm female and ~ 2 months out. I realize everyone is different, but is there somewhere else you can get help? Is it a pride thing? Is it a male thing? I'm really trying to understand. Do you have people to talk to, do you hang out with friends a lot? What do you do to cope each day?


Talk therapy just made me manic, I wouldn't even say I'm depressed, definitely around my kids I'm not, I really enjoy time with them. I pretty much run and exercise to cope, I drink more than I should. I'm a VP of IT and have 56 people under me, it's stressful it takes a lot of my time so friends are left to every so often, I have a running club wher I meet up with people or an occasional happy hour with work friends. I have little time so I really don't focus too much on it, I just have been the past few weeks and it has been triggering, it's not always this bad, I trigger and go crazy probably 2-3 times a year for a few weeks then I'm relatively normal (right now I'm in crazy zone). You know I'm triggering if I'm posting here fighting with people over nonsense. I'm typically not this much of an *******, this is like my emotional vomit site to get out all the bad and go back to life...

I'm typically so normal my wife would claim I'm the best husband and our marriage is perfect. But dealing with these feelings I think it's 13, 14 years now? It's exhausting, once I leave the marriage and I don't have to relive this humiliation all the time, and I just have blessed alone time and quiet I'll be much happier.

I don't know if it's a male thing, I always thought a woman cheating on a man is a much larger insult than vice versa, but I'm not a woman, to me it is, from my perspective it is. I'm here for the kids, I have 3 of them and I want to be there full time while they grow up so I just have to eat sh*t for another decade to be their dad and not a babysitter every two weeks, and it is what it is.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA! He should be so lucky!
> 
> None of them treat their husbands like garbage. You really can't make assumptions based on your bitterness.


You said all three of them cheated on their husbands, sounds like garbage in my book. Making a moral judgment on people because of their actions doesn't make me bitter it makes discerning. I judge people by how they treat those closest to them, and how they honor their word. Think I am bitter if you want, don't care.


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## growing_weary (Jul 23, 2017)

Ah, I missed the part where you were still in the marriage. That probably makes it worse. My WS and I are both in IT. I'm much more social than he is and neither of us have the amount of people under us that you do so I might not understand. I do take the time to go out even for a little bit with people... just keep the phone on hand for quick fire emails/calls. Exercise definitely helps. Have you taken any vacations? Could you take one alone? Gone to meetups / industry conferences with a little padding before and after for enjoyment? Can you delegate more at work, shake up the underlying structure of your reports? Do you have to be on call bc of your role? Is it possible to shift some of it without losing your pull? Just trying to offer places where you could lighten the load, I guess. 

If it's just a few weeks out of the year then I hope it passes soon. I find meditation helps, but you said you've already tried it. Headspace is a little take it or leave it as far as apps go, but it helps. Happify is another app I try to do some of the exercises on even if some are hokey.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

knobcreek said:


> The humiliation is terrible, if I didn't have children I probably would've killed myself years ago from it, you can't get away from it ever, it's been over a decade, done therapy, meditation, it's not a natural state for a man and it's not one he ever recovers from.
> 
> At 39 I can still do 100 continuous push-ups, probably 8% BF, I run marathons, got my undergrad, an MBA from a good school, I make 165K a year as an executive manager. It's all meaningless, I'm a cuckold and there's nothing worse for a man. I wish I never knew, or she divorced me under a different guise to be honest. Now I'm just waiting for the kids to be grown and I'm moving to 80 acres to be by myself to get away from the constant humiliation and anxiety it has caused me.


Think of your wife as broken. So in that sense she is like a mirror that is broken. If you choose to judge yourself by what you see when you look at a broken mirror then you are going to have a skewed opinion of yourself. 

Personally you should not wait for your kids you should take your agency back now, that is why you feel powerless and defeated. Thing is your wife has no hold on that agency, only you do. Right now you are paralyzed but you don't have to be. Kids need two active parents in their lives it really doesn't matter much if the parents are together or just parenting apart. Especially if their father thinks of himself a cuckold. You are doing your kids no favors but staying if you think like that. 

This is not 1950 almost half the kids in North America (if that is where you are) are being or have been raised in a divorced home, for years and years. A vast majority are going to or have gone on to have normal productive lives. You being paralyzed by fear or whatever it is you are feeling may actually doing more damage to them. 

Only you can save yourself though. You need to buck up and find your courage. The only one holding you down at this point is you. 

Maybe reading this guys story will give you some strength.  It's time to heal.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> My wife cheated on me and my life has been filled with anxiety, panic attacks, feeling worthless, even over a decade later. I assume it will always be there, and the periods of depression that happen. I can run marathons, I make a good salary, graduate degree, doesn't matter, I feel like a pile of worthless **** most of the time. I just assume to have never known, assuming she re-commited to the marriage and everything was fine as it is today. the only problem is being in the marriage makes me feel inadequate, depressed, and it all stems from the cheating, it's the ultimate rejection for a man, one I'll never get over. There's nothing she can do about it at this point. it just is what it is.



I'm not sure if this was brought up before...but if i can use you as an example Knob, although this very thing might have happen to another TAM member if the truth ever comes out....let's say that your wife never told you...not sure if she confessed or you found out...but for sake of argument she says nothing...then years later she goes in for her annual check up and discovers that she has HPV, now begins the questions...its not just about whether you should clear your soul of your transgressions but what are the underlining and unforeseen repercussions from that tryst? Another member had to deal with a wife that got pregnant from the OM....sometimes the secrets that are kept have unforeseen consequences...does it matter if what happen years ago or yesterday at that point?


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

The wayward spouse should confess the infidelity. The lies and deception deeply add to the betrayal, and the betrayed spouse has a right to know. How the BS deals with the truth is his or her decision, but in a marriage the spouse always deserves the truth. Trust is a bedbrock of marriage, and when it is broken it can be repaired if both parties are willing. If they both are not willing, it's time to separate. There is a reason the maxim "honesty is the best policy" exists. I am weary anytime someone tries to debunk that policy or make an exception. 

By the way, (and this addressed to knobcreek) I am twice divorced to a wife who twice left me for another man. To the latest guy she left me for, I say, "Your loss and my gain." So glad to have her out of my heart and mind. We now split custody with my children. Yes, it would be better for the kids to be under one roof with happily married parents, but when one spouse is a cheater, that cannot be the case. The kids are better off living in two separate homes than in one that hides a dark secret and models a miserable marriage. 

knobcreek, there is life after infidelity. You can either recover your marriage, which you have NOT done based on your current state of mind, or you can exit and renew yourself. Many men have been victimized by infidelity and have gotten help and rebuilt a strong and balanced sense of self. I strongly suggest you read Surviving an Affair, and focus on the recovery part of Dr. Harley's book. As a man who has been dealt the terrible blow of infidelity from a serial cheater, I can say that there is life after infidelity. It is possible to recover the marriage if both parties are all in and committed. It is also possible to start a new life outside of the marriage if the wife won't stop straying. But staying in "no man's land" is not the solution.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

knobcreek said:


> The humiliation is terrible, if I didn't have children I probably would've killed myself years ago from it, you can't get away from it ever, it's been over a decade, done therapy, meditation, it's not a natural state for a man and it's not one he ever recovers from.


I cannot understand this mindset at all. ESPECIALLY to the point of killing yourself over it?!?! You're going to say it's cuz I'm female, but I don't think that's it. I think it's more to do with the PERSON. When my husband cheated it royally pissed me off. I wasn't humiliated at all. He was the one who ****ed up, not me! Why the hell would *I* be humiliated?? I was traumatized all right and I had to work to get over the feeling of betrayal and inability to trust at all, but I did so from a position of power because HE cheated. I just do not GET why BS's take such responsibility for the idiotic choices their spouses make. Often it doesn't even have anything to DO with them.

If my husband had not begged for R that would have been fine with me. I'm not going to have any trouble finding another guy if I want to. I certainly do not NEED a guy in my life - and I am happy that hubby and I have been so successful at R - but if we weren't? Or if he cheated again? SO LONG, dude. You're GONE.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> I cannot understand this mindset at all. ESPECIALLY to the point of killing yourself over it?!?! You're going to say it's cuz I'm female, but I don't think that's it. I think it's more to do with the PERSON. When my husband cheated it royally pissed me off. I wasn't humiliated at all. He was the one who ****ed up, not me! Why the hell would *I* be humiliated?? I was traumatized all right and I had to work to get over the feeling of betrayal and inability to trust at all, but I did so from a position of power because HE cheated. I just do not GET why BS's take such responsibility for the idiotic choices their spouses make. Often it doesn't even have anything to DO with them.
> 
> If my husband had not begged for R that would have been fine with me. I'm not going to have any trouble finding another guy if I want to. I certainly do not NEED a guy in my life - and I am happy that hubby and I have been so successful at R - but if we weren't? Or if he cheated again? SO LONG, dude. You're GONE.


I'm sure I have preexisting issues that made the affair much more traumatic than the typical person. You sound like a well adjusted person with high self-esteem. I, like many dudes, mistakenly put his entire self-worth solely based on how he was treated by his wife, I put everything into the marriage, lost friendships, my entire 20's and 30's, worked night and day and when she cheated it was such a blow to my ego I haven't recovered.

People are different, I wear my heart on my sleeve, and emotionally I'm not tough when it comes to love, my kids, and my wife, I've been through extremely difficult situations in my life people couldn't imagine and handled them, but the affair completely broke me, likely for good. It's the one thing I could never see coming and just can't deal with.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Can I ask you a question? I'm not being snarky but I would truly like to know what you gained by staying wiht a serial cheater? Are you truly happy? I'm just curious on your view of things.


TS1,

Valid question. I've read enough of your posts to know you don't press the WTH button... straight shooter... just an honest questions. 

Gained?
Happy?
Views?

I'll answer the last first. A few months after the shock of DD, I came to the understanding at 50 years old that I didn't really know the woman I was married to during the past 30 years. Hard to believe, even for me. I learned more about her in 15 minutes post DD than the prior 30 years. She had been a "good" wife and mother for decades that really went down a dark path and got addicted to the thrill of cheating. It really was like an addiction to her. She readily admits that she enjoyed it and could not stop on her own. The excitement and thrill overcame all the risks. After DD, exposure to all, especially our grown children she was ruined, broken, abandoned, alone. I was the only person that would even communicate with her. She begged for mercy. I sat on the fence for over 2 years, divorce my only option. I looked at my options and stayed.

Happy? It's been 8 years post DD. Happy? Forgiven? Not really. She know this, She asked? I said so. I don't dwell on it. No more "mind movies", very few triggers. She tries really hard. I don't bring it up. Dirty little secret of those that R for the long haul? You get to wake every morning and wonder to yourself... "Is this real". As Jackson Browne says... I get up, go to work, do it again... say a prayer for the pretender.

Gained? After being cheated on for years and deciding to R... A little bit of Vison. I've got multiple University Degrees and they add up to nothing in terms of real life wisdom. Talk to someone that's been cheated on, R or D, and all will tell you about the Clarity that they have acquired. Betrayal is a brutal teacher.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> That is what I tell my wife whenever she goes away with her girlfriends "if you cheat, please don't tell me; you get to live with the guilt, I don't need to live with the humiliation".


If she cheats (maybe every time she goes out) - then she isn't feeling guilty, is she? To a BIG degree, you are giving her PERMISSION to cheat on you.

Humiliated? Compared to broken trust, it's a fraction of the problems that is all things cheating.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> I'm sure I have preexisting issues that made the affair much more traumatic than the typical person. ~~ People are different, I wear my heart on my sleeve, and emotionally I'm not tough when it comes to love, my kids, and my wife, I've been through extremely difficult situations in my life people couldn't imagine and handled them, but the affair completely broke me, likely for good. It's the one thing I could never see coming and just can't deal with.


I'm a man. I have a pre-existing issue of being a CSA (was molested as a child), I am smart - but making crap money to pay for my living expenses. My wife, woman I gave my heart to - cheated on me, ran away - came back - broke contact, I threw her out. I don't have any humiliation. That's on her. I made her look bad for her actions, actually she made herself look bad.

Question1 : Has your wife been faithful since then (12+ years ago)? 
Question2 : Is she aware of your pain and suffering?
Question3 : Do you want to get better?

So all this pressure on you, the triggers (yeah, I know what you mean - I still have muscle twitches by stress and random thoughts)... after all these years, you need to ASK YOURSELF "WHY?"
I'm in R. I still love my wife. I want to be with her. *BUT* I'm willing to dump her. I really am. We have a kid, a young one. But I'm not going to waste *MY* time if she wants to cheat on me again.

You got money, youth and health. I'm almost 50, I need to hit the gym and lose 50lbs. But by all means, I can EASILY - VERY EASILY, get laid by others, not my wife. I can go to a club, call up old contacts "hay gal, wanna have fun with Tador's pole?" So what *IS YOUR EXCUSE*?! Hell, if it may make you feel better, cheat on your wife. Give her some pain. If she has been faithful - then maybe she'll know the pain she gave you?

So, what are YOU doing to FIX yourself? What you have been doing for years, ain't working. You are causing your own humiliation by giving a 10+ year old affair POWER OVER YOU.

Find a completely different therapist. Go weekly.
There are people who have gone through much worse things, have less options than you.

You have a choice. Choose to do make your life better, or continue to live in your own self-built prison... at this point, it's not your wife or your job that is keeping you in there. Your prison is a cardboard box... all you have to do is open the flaps and step out of it.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I cannot understand this mindset at all. ESPECIALLY to the point of killing yourself over it?!?! You're going to say it's cuz I'm female, but I don't think that's it. I think it's more to do with the PERSON. When my husband cheated it royally pissed me off. I wasn't humiliated at all. He was the one who ****ed up, not me! Why the hell would *I* be humiliated?? I was traumatized all right and I had to work to get over the feeling of betrayal and inability to trust at all, but I did so from a position of power because HE cheated. I just do not GET why BS's take such responsibility for the idiotic choices their spouses make. Often it doesn't even have anything to DO with them.
> 
> If my husband had not begged for R that would have been fine with me. I'm not going to have any trouble finding another guy if I want to. I certainly do not NEED a guy in my life - and I am happy that hubby and I have been so successful at R - but if we weren't? Or if he cheated again? SO LONG, dude. You're GONE.


*With Ol' Arb, his new mantra is largely that if my spouse of choice is found to be cheating, as little as just one time, they are duly gone ~ TILT ~ game over!

I'm sorry, but I truly believe in honoring and faithfully keeping my holy matrimonial vows that I so heartfully professed at our marriage ceremony ~ and, by golly, so should they!*


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

TaDor said:


> If she cheats (maybe every time she goes out) - then she isn't feeling guilty, is she? To a BIG degree, you are giving her PERMISSION to cheat on you.
> 
> Humiliated? Compared to broken trust, it's a fraction of the problems that is all things cheating.


I do not believe she has cheated on me. I am confident she would feel guilty if she did. I don't tell her this because I worry she is tempted to cheat. I tell her this precisely because she knows she doesn't want to cheat so she might be blind to the warning signs as a predator approaches. I tell her to warn her to be prepared early in the process for the warning signs that she is on the slippery slope and to turn away. I am telling her to take precautions to avoid heading toward the edge of the slope because it is a long fall and there are sharp rocks at the bottom.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> I do not believe she has cheated on me. I am confident she would feel guilty if she did. I don't tell her this because I worry she is tempted to cheat. I tell her this precisely because she knows she doesn't want to cheat so she might be blind to the warning signs as a predator approaches. I tell her to warn her to be prepared early in the process for the warning signs that she is on the slippery slope and to turn away. I am telling her to take precautions to avoid heading toward the edge of the slope because it is a long fall and there are sharp rocks at the bottom.




Ok Sensei


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Hey, it is my delusion and I am happy living in it. Not interested in having my bubble burst. I am not leaving her so ignorance is indeed bliss.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

knobcreek said:


> I'm sure I have preexisting issues that made the affair much more traumatic than the typical person. You sound like a well adjusted person with high self-esteem. I, like many dudes, mistakenly put his entire self-worth solely based on how he was treated by his wife, I put everything into the marriage, lost friendships, my entire 20's and 30's, worked night and day and when she cheated it was such a blow to my ego I haven't recovered.
> 
> People are different, I wear my heart on my sleeve, and emotionally I'm not tough when it comes to love, my kids, and my wife, I've been through extremely difficult situations in my life people couldn't imagine and handled them, but the affair completely broke me, likely for good. It's the one thing I could never see coming and just can't deal with.


You do realize that with that attitude you most definitely WON'T ever get over it, right?

If I had to guess, I would say you kind of enjoy being the victim here. Otherwise, if you recognize your self esteem could use some work and you have 'issues', why not figure out how to get over it??

Your wife does sound like a complete ***** though. Any woman who rips a guys heart out like that just because she can is a *****. My husband would probably feel like you if I cheated. His self esteem can definitely use some work. He puts me WAY up on a pedestal. We (well, mostly me, truth be told) are working to get him over this and make him more independent - it's slow going but progress is being made. And part of the problem is that he DOES enjoy being the victim. It's his default mode.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

We’ve covered this here before in one way or another, my thoughts are the same.

Had my husband had an affair, got the sense knocked back into him, stopped the affair, knew to himself to never do it again and recommitted himself fully to me – changing the things he knew made me unhappy and tried to make our relationship better – then no, I wouldn’t want to know. Honestly, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t want him to tell me and I wouldn’t want anyone else to tell me.

My husband had what I thought was a long term EA with only a few instances of seeing her in person (she lives in another town 2 hours away). I had an inkling it had gone PA but no confirmation. I’d convinced myself that the EA was revenge and thought I had convinced myself to accept the probable PA part of it. I came a LONG way with accepting that within a 5 month period. I was in a really good place and feeling really good about the decision to stay together. OW contacted me to ‘apologize’ and basically play the victim that ‘she didn’t know’ and that he ‘lied to her’ and I got many, many more details from her as far as frequency and confirmation that it was a PA several times over. I can’t tell you HOW MUCH I wish I didn’t know. Her ‘apology’ was only to assuage her own guilt and to justify to herself the fact that she stuck her head in the sand and acted like she didn’t know. 

Now that I know, I can’t UN know and I’m not taking it well at all. Obviously my situation is a little different. I had what amounts to a ONS 4 years ago. What he did would I suppose be considered a revenge affair, if revenge affairs involve ex-girlfriends and last a year and a half or longer (possibly close to 2 years). And what could amount to a 9 year EA with the same woman before that. The whole thing is a little muddy. At any rate, aside from the obvious that I don’t want ANY of this to be part of my life at all, the main thing to me is that I wish I didn’t know. The only thing I WOULD have liked to know is the future. So I could have walked away 12 years ago when I met him.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> I do not believe she has cheated on me. I am confident she would feel guilty if she did. I don't tell her this because I worry she is tempted to cheat. I tell her this precisely because she knows she doesn't want to cheat so she might be blind to the warning signs as a predator approaches. I tell her to warn her to be prepared early in the process for the warning signs that she is on the slippery slope and to turn away. I am telling her to take precautions to avoid heading toward the edge of the slope because it is a long fall and there are sharp rocks at the bottom.


Happiness is not bliss if she brings home a pregnancy or an STD or gives you HPV cancer.

If any ladies here would like to give their opinion… 

Don’t know how often your wife goes out, but if its weekly or something – your warning is long past old.
If someone is cheating, they are not feeling much guilt. And if starting down that path – the guilt is there, it is kept to herself. After a while, why not do it again? What you don’t know can’t hurt you afterall, right?

So lets say she is out with her friends… drinking, and interacting with men as well… but its okay, she’s married. As you already stated, you told her this in that she will be warned to look out for such guys. Wait, did you TELL her this, or just assume that she will be on GUARD against such wolves?

A skilled player can woe the panties off a wife easier than you think. I was a bit of a player myself – but I didn’t lie / pretend to be someone I was not or out to have sex with someone’s wife.

So lets say she sees a NICE guy a few times… he doesn’t actually try to get into her panties. (how to get into a woman’s panties is to NOT ask to get into a woman’s panties)

Your husband ever coming out with you? (No)
He’s missing out on dancing with such a nice lady such as your self. (how sweet)
If you were my wife, I would come out with you every night. (blushes)
How does he feel about you being out with the gals and such (he has a don’t tell policy)
Oh? (yeah)

Well, we’re just dancing. Nothing wrong with that (Yeah! Yeah!) As he gets to feel and rub his crotch on her butt… he puts his arms around her while dancing. Feels good.

A kiss is just a kiss. What he doesn’t know won’t hurt him (okay, *kiss kiss*)
A BJ is just a BJ, not sex. What he doesn’t know won’t hurt him (okay, *sucky sucky*)
Doing in the butt is just a booty, not sex. What he doesn’t know won’t hurt him (okay, *poke poke*)

Sorry dude, but you’ve given her reasons and rules for her to have sex with others. It really doesn’t take much for someone to cheat… once her defenses are a bit down…. “Why Not? I just won’t tell him”. She’ll worry about the guilt later..

That is how I and others most likely read your “threat” of her future guilt. And of course, that rule of yours works any time, any day. It doesn’t have to be girls-night-out. I think what you did was… showing your weakness.

So, the thing here, is how to get the horse back in the barn?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

LosingHim said:


> We’ve covered this here before in one way or another, my thoughts are the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If I recall correctly, you fought like hell to repent after your brief (less than a few minutes?) encounter. But your infraction was trivial compared with his years long betrayal.

You don't need to live like this if you've given everything you have to give and he has dumped on your marriage so much.

Don't embrace the sunk cost fallacy. You can still move on. It may be healthier in the long term


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> I cannot understand this mindset at all. ESPECIALLY to the point of killing yourself over it?!?! You're going to say it's cuz I'm female, but I don't think that's it. I think it's more to do with the PERSON. When my husband cheated it royally pissed me off. I wasn't humiliated at all. He was the one who ****ed up, not me! Why the hell would *I* be humiliated?? I was traumatized all right and I had to work to get over the feeling of betrayal and inability to trust at all, but I did so from a position of power because HE cheated. I just do not GET why BS's take such responsibility for the idiotic choices their spouses make. Often it doesn't even have anything to DO with them.
> 
> If my husband had not begged for R that would have been fine with me. I'm not going to have any trouble finding another guy if I want to. I certainly do not NEED a guy in my life - and I am happy that hubby and I have been so successful at R - but if we weren't? Or if he cheated again? SO LONG, dude. You're GONE.


I agree with this so much.

I will never understand people who take on guilt and humiliation for OTHER people's choices.....in any aspect of life.

It is completely irrational.....with the added 'bonus' of being emotionally damaging to the person thinking this way.

In this world, it is enough to 'own your sh*t' as an individual......and healthy to demand that others in your life do the same.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

knobcreek said:


> I'm sure I have preexisting issues that made the affair much more traumatic than the typical person. You sound like a well adjusted person with high self-esteem. I, like many dudes, mistakenly put his entire self-worth solely based on how he was treated by his wife, I put everything into the marriage, lost friendships, my entire 20's and 30's, worked night and day and when she cheated it was such a blow to my ego I haven't recovered.
> 
> People are different, I wear my heart on my sleeve, and emotionally I'm not tough when it comes to love, my kids, and my wife, I've been through extremely difficult situations in my life people couldn't imagine and handled them, but the affair completely broke me, likely for good. It's the one thing I could never see coming and just can't deal with.


You don't have to stay like this though. There comes a point where it is a choice to wallow. Your life didn't begin or end with your wife, period, if she is good or bad to you. You are still in the long run responsible for your own happiness.

Look man even you know you are not healing. Get a better IC. Start detaching from your wife. Read about codependency. Live your life, take some agency in your healing. Move on. Or wallow and post about it on here. Did you read the tread I posted to you. You can be that guy but you have to take back your power, or get it if you never had it.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> You do realize that with that attitude you most definitely WON'T ever get over it, right?
> 
> If I had to guess, I would say you kind of enjoy being the victim here. Otherwise, if you recognize your self esteem could use some work and you have 'issues', why not figure out how to get over it??
> 
> Your wife does sound like a complete ***** though. Any woman who rips a guys heart out like that just because she can is a *****. My husband would probably feel like you if I cheated. His self esteem can definitely use some work. He puts me WAY up on a pedestal. We (well, mostly me, truth be told) are working to get him over this and make him more independent - it's slow going but progress is being made. And part of the problem is that he DOES enjoy being the victim. It's his default mode.


I get it's likely on me at this point, there's nothing she can do at this point to make up for it, she can't be a martyr forever it's why I never really mention anything to her about it. I hate being the victim I never like being the center of attention for anything or people feeling bad for me, it's why I never say this **** to anyone in real life. Tough to explain what it is, I think I'm just wired different than most people and that's fine, if I were married to a loyal woman it would've been a huge positive that I put her on a pedestal and wear my heart on my sleeve and never would've imagined her cheating and had 100% trust in her. But it didn't work out that way and I broke, it is what it is.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

sokillme said:


> You don't have to stay like this though. There comes a point where it is a choice to wallow. Your life didn't begin or end with your wife, period, if she is good or bad to you. You are still in the long run responsible for your own happiness.
> 
> Look man even you know you are not healing. Get a better IC. Start detaching from your wife. Read about codependency. Live your life, take some agency in your healing. Move on. Or wallow and post about it on here. Did you read the tread I posted to you. You can be that guy but you have to take back your power, or get it if you never had it.


You're right of course, it's a lot harder said than done. I have changed quite a bit from the affair, I did everything I was told to, I improved every facet of my life but nothing really changed, I make more money, I have degrees, hobbies, good shape, ... like I said in the last post I think I'm just wired differently than most people making it a lot more difficult to get over an affair and making it a lot more damaging.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

knobcreek said:


> You're right of course, it's a lot harder said than done. I have changed quite a bit from the affair, I did everything I was told to, I improved every facet of my life but nothing really changed, I make more money, I have degrees, hobbies, good shape, ... like I said in the last post I think I'm just wired differently than most people making it a lot more difficult to get over an affair and making it a lot more damaging.


If it is a deal breaker for you move on.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

RWB said:


> TS1,
> 
> Valid question. I've read enough of your posts to know you don't press the WTH button... straight shooter... just an honest questions.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your honest answer. You have confirmed, at least in your case, what I suspect for a lot of BSs of serial or LTA cheaters is there really is no putting it back together again where the BS is totally happy with the relationship. I've seen cases where a BS has a Ws who had sex with the AP everyday for years and even gave their BS an STD but is still hanging around infidelity forums a decade later declaring how great R and the new marriage is. I have my doubts and still do. Another case where the WS had a LTA that was exposed years later and once again the BS is talking about R but every once in awhile there is a crack and the truth shines through - like not being able to sleep in almost 2 years. I never believed R was as rosy as some BSs claim especially after the brutality of a serial cheaters or a cheater in a LTA actions comes to light. *My theory is if the BS is still hanging around infidelity forums a decade or more later and counting how many years past dday they are not healed, not by a long shot.* That is an ugly truth never discussed especially on a forum like SI. 

You don't seem happy and my question for you and all BSs is when is enough enough? *What are you doing to take care of yourself and make yourself happy?* Do you ever think about a future with a new partner who is not a serial cheater? 

This says it all right here:

*"Dirty little secret of those that R for the long haul? You get to wake every morning and wonder to yourself... "Is this real". As Jackson Browne says... I get up, go to work, do it again... say a prayer for the pretender."*

I wonder how any BSs this is true for. Why stay then? Surely your other options have to be better than this seeming hell? 

I'm just curious.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@chumplady wrote a UBT article on this topic:

UBT: Will Telling the Truth Hurt Your Relationship?


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Should a cheater tell their spouse?

each case has its own baggage, but my opinion...if you can vow to STOP cheating for the rest of your life, *you should take it to the grave. * A lot of time people tell their spouses to "get it off of their chest" and get closure/absolution for something that is bothering them. But in reality all you are doing is stabbing a hot dagger into your spouse's heart to make yourself feel better. Live with it, endure the shame, and cheat no more.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> One of the main reasons I don't push R here is that if a WS lies and deceives before and during the affair to get what they want, can you truly believe all the "I'm sorry and love only you" that most say to avoid a D?


That's been my view for years.

How does the fear of losing one's family and their financial assets suddenly equate to 'remorse' just because the cheater is caught and is now jumping around like a trained seal doing whatever their BS tells them to do in order to avoid being tossed out the door? For most cheaters, the whole reason they were lying and sneaking in the FIRST place is because they didn't want to lose their family or their assets. They didn't want to lose anything *before* they were caught and they don't want to lose anything *after* they're caught. So where were all those declarations of love for their BS and where was all that desire to work on their marriage BEFORE they were caught cheating? Where _was _it all before D-Day?

Yeah. I thought so.

I read that nonsense all the time from BS's who claim their 'former' cheater is *'doing all the work' *which really just means the cheater is towing the line and doing everything the BS expects of them because they don't want a divorce. Yet, you continually see these BS's coming back to the board a few years later claiming, "I'm back.." because their supposedly 'remorseful cheater who was doing all the work' has once again shown their true character and got caught again. And worse, the fool is all about reconciling AGAIN with their cheater.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> *My theory is if the BS is still hanging around infidelity forums a decade or more later and counting how many years past dday they are not healed, not by a long shot.* That is an ugly truth never discussed especially on a forum like SI.
> 
> Do you ever think about a future with a new partner who is not a serial cheater?
> 
> I'm just curious.


TS1,

:surprise: Guilty as charged... quickly approaching DD+8, Aug 5, 2009, 7:30pm. Healed? I'm ok, just changed. 

Trading in on a new model?

My fWW has done just about everything she can in the years post DD. She knows the slightest sign of an affair, I'm gone, no emotions, no discussions. What it is... is what it is.

One opinion, if you are contemplating D after being cheated on. Do it soon after DD. Letting the years pile up makes things very complicated, financially as well as emotionally.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

RWB said:


> TS1,
> 
> :surprise: Guilty as charged... quickly approaching DD+8, Aug 5, 2009, 7:30pm. Healed? I'm ok, just changed.
> 
> ...


I was not aiming that statement at you and I'm sorry if you thought I did. I aimed it at BSs who are in "R" after an awful betrayal and go around telling everyone how "healed" they are, take other BSs to task for being too "mean" to their Ws and talk about how great their marriage is now. Its so great you hang around infidelity forums? I'm not aware of you doing any of the things I've listed. Its those BSs that I doubt.

RWB you just don't seem happy to me. Your fWW could do everything but she still had 3 APs. that can not be undone ever. I wonder if you had divorced your wife if she would have continued sleeping around or did she have her fun and then wanted her marriage back? 

*Tell me what do you do to make yourself happy because we know your WW does not make you happy. It is sad to think of you merely existing - no person deserves to live like that.*


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Talker67 said:


> Should a cheater tell their spouse?
> 
> each case has its own baggage, but my opinion...if you can vow to STOP cheating for the rest of your life, *you should take it to the grave. * A lot of time people tell their spouses to "get it off of their chest" and get closure/absolution for something that is bothering them. But in reality all you are doing is stabbing a hot dagger into your spouse's heart to make yourself feel better. Live with it, endure the shame, and cheat no more.


It's not about making yourself feel better--it's about showing your spouse the respect he/she deserves by giving him/her the information he/she needs to make an informed decision about who he/she is willing to spend the rest of his/her life with. 

We often point out how lies of omission can be as bad as lies of fact. Once one commits the lie of cheating, from that day on, every day without disclosure, is yet another lie of omission, and a rather heinous one at that.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I suspect those who don't want to know are more inclined to be the "stay at all costs" types.

I would absolutely want to know because I'm not that guy at all, and I would want to know so I could weigh my options. I suspect I would be a "leave in all instances" type, with the door only slightly ajar for R with some extreme extenuating circumstances. I've only read of 2 instances on TAM that meet that criteria and even then it's a lot of work for the WS so that's really the limiting factor for successful R even in those cases.

But, knock on wood...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I suspect those who don't want to know are more inclined to be the "stay at all costs" types.


Exactly.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> Exactly.


And even they should know just what they are staying with.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

TaDor said:


> Happiness is not bliss if she brings home a pregnancy or an STD or gives you HPV cancer.


She can't get pregnant (chemo from cancer brought on menopause) and we don't have sex so she can't give me a STD. She has had herpes since before we got married and I never got it because we didn't have sex very often back when we did have sex and now we don't have sex at all.

I agree that for most couples my solution would not be acceptable and for most younger guys your analysis is likely correct.

I know my wife. I know our kids. If she cheated and they found out they would hate her and that would hurt her deeply. She knows this and she won't cheat.

I did admit my weakness to her. But given that we already were not having any sex and I am staying, that horse long since left the barn. The admission of weakness helped because it sent the message "I don't have enough pride to hide that you cheated on me. If you tell me, I will tell the kids no matter how weak that shows me to be. I am not trying to pretend I am strong. I am weak enough to let my kids watch me bleed. They will not admire me for that. But they will hate you more for putting me in that position." Not every set of kids would fee that way. Some would think their father was pathetic and would think their Mom was justified to cheat. Mine will think I am weak but that her behavior was not justified. And she knows it.

She doesn't go on girls night out often. My warning was when she went on vacation with a girlfriend. If she cheated, then at least she had the decency not to tell me. So maybe I am ignorant and delusional. But I am happier than I would be if I knew she cheated. So for that I am thankful. Because I wouldn't leave if I knew. And that would be torture.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I'm 6.5 years past D day and doing R, and I'm on TAM because I'm bored at work all the time.  I'm also pretty happy. But I credit that to kicking him out on D day. The vast majority of BS's won't do that, and the vast majority of WS's refuse to leave if they do. Make of that what you will, but it does kind of (not a lot, just a bit) piss me off when people on here go on and on about how true R is so impossible. It isn't impossible, but I'd say it's rarer than being hit by lightning and winning the lottery on the same day.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And even they should know just what they are staying with.


We know. Trust me, we know. But we have decided to stay anyway. If they don't tell us, we can both pretend. Once it is in the open, much harder to pretend.

Why are you looking to punish the BS further for their weakness? Do you think if you shame a BS sufficiently, they will have no choice but to leave, and that result justifies the humiliation? Some of us are going to stay regardless. So the additional humiliation is cruel and gratuitous. I understand she doesn't find me attractive. Why would anyone want to rub my nose in the fact that she does find someone else worth boffing?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Holdingontoit said:


> We know. Trust me, we know. But we have decided to stay anyway. If they don't tell us, we can both pretend. Once it is in the open, much harder to pretend.
> 
> Why are you looking to punish the BS further for their weakness? Do you think if you shame a BS sufficiently, they will have no choice but to leave, and that result justifies the humiliation? Some of us are going to stay regardless. So the additional humiliation is cruel and gratuitous. I understand she doesn't find me attractive. Why would anyone want to rub my nose in the fact that she does find someone else worth boffing?


Some people actually DO want to help people like this. Ever hear of the 2x4? It does works once in a while.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> We know. Trust me, we know.


This thread is specifically dedicated to those who don’t know



Holdingontoit said:


> But we have decided to stay anyway.


A choice that should be made with eyes wide open.



Holdingontoit said:


> If they don't tell us, we can both pretend. Once it is in the open, much harder to pretend.


Competent human beings stop pretending somewhere around age 9. Pretending is for children.



Holdingontoit said:


> Why are you looking to punish the BS further for their weakness?


Who said anything about BS weakness? I’m not assuming weakness here. Being a BS is not indicative of weakness, it is only statement of the character of the WS, not the BS 



Holdingontoit said:


> Do you think if you shame a BS sufficiently, they will have no choice but to leave, and that result justifies the humiliation?


This does not shame the BS (see above—it is only shameful for the WS). If anything, assuming the BS can’t handle the truth is shaming them. Also, I’m not making any statements about whether or not the BS should leave. BS will have all the same options either way—the key difference is that the deserve to make that decision in light of all the facts, which is far better than making such a monumental decision in ignorance.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I suspect those who don't want to know are more inclined to be the "stay at all costs" types.


Bingo! Have you seen some of the circumstances BS reconcile under?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Bingo! Have you seen some of the circumstances BS reconcile under?




I almost responded before realizing that was a rhetorical question 


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I almost responded before realizing that was a rhetorical question
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Its true though - oh boy. When someone spouse cheats for over a decade and the Bhis there talking about R- you do wonder what the hell is going on in their head SMH


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> She can't get pregnant (chemo from cancer brought on menopause) and we don't have sex so she can't give me a STD. She has had herpes since before we got married and I never got it because we didn't have sex very often back when we did have sex and now we don't have sex at all.
> 
> I agree that for most couples my solution would not be acceptable and for most younger guys your analysis is likely correct.~~


If you both are in your 50s~60s and have functional sex drives - then that seems to be a problem. Why would you care if she had sex with others - if you both aren't doing it anyway? Either you both don't like sex or someone is sexually frustrated. Was herpes a factor in the sex relationship of your wife?

If you like sex and she likes sex - and you are not doing it together, why bother with caring or staying?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

TaDor said:


> If you both are in your 50s~60s and have functional sex drives - then that seems to be a problem. Why would you care if she had sex with others - if you both aren't doing it anyway? Either you both don't like sex or someone is sexually frustrated. Was herpes a factor in the sex relationship of your wife?
> 
> If you like sex and she likes sex - and you are not doing it together, why bother with caring or staying?


I am the one who is frustrated and I am the one who is determined not to have sex with her. If I am willing to be frustrated, why should anyone care what we do or don't do? As far as I can tell, she is not frustrated by the lack of sex. She likes not being pressured for unwanted sex. And she likes that I am no longer so wimpy and conflict-avoidant.

No, the herpes was not a factor in our sex life. She disclosed it before we got married (wish she had disclosed the multiple rapes). I trusted her to let me know when it was the "wrong" time to have sex, and she did. I just didn't realize that so much of the time would be the "wrong" time, or that there would be so much wrong time totally unrelated to herpes outbreaks. Or maybe she never had herpes and that was just a convenient excuse to put me off sex? I don't think so, but I do notice that she hasn't mentioned having an outbreak since we stopped having sex. Ah well, that has nothing to do with why I stopped having sex and if that has disappeared it would not entice me to resume sex.

Do I have a functional sex drive? Hard to say. Yes, in a perfect world I would like to have partner sex. Am I willing to do what it takes to get there? No. So I am thinking I have a pretty weak sex drive. I was willing to invest hours and hours of time, thousands and thousands of dollars in payments to counsellors, and much grief, aggravation and humiliation over 8 years of professional intervention aimed at improving our sex life. So there was a time when I had a stronger drive. But at this point I am old and tired and depressed and simply unwilling to invest in trying to have partner sex. 

Over the past 40 years I have masturbated over 12,000 times and had sex probably 2 or 3 hundred times. At this point masturbation is what I know and is easy and reliable. Sex is frightening and uncertain and risky and expensive and not worth the effort. I realize now I am lousy in bed, always was, and the women I was with were polite enough not to rub my face in it. At this point the thought of finding a partner interested in helping me learn to be better is far beyond my highest ambition. I'd rather have a steady date for dinner on Saturday night and rub one out after H2 goes to sleep than blow up my world for a chance at a type of relationship I don't believe I am capable of participating in.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> You're right of course, it's a lot harder said than done. I have changed quite a bit from the affair, I did everything I was told to, I improved every facet of my life but nothing really changed, I make more money, I have degrees, hobbies, good shape, ... like I said in the last post I think I'm just wired differently than most people making it a lot more difficult to get over an affair and making it a lot more damaging.


Sad to hear your story, i felt like you many times and it looks like we have almost identical career role....a couple things that worked for me...
find a hobby, a real one, something you always wanted to do, something you know you don't want to leave this life w/o doing, that help me tremendously.
Focus on helping others, I totally cannot stand animal abuse, it hits me to the core to see helpless animals be abused by humans, so that's one of the things i fight for now, and support, and involved in as much as I can. It helps you to know you are making a difference NOW to a poor abused soul in pain.
Last thing for me was to devalue marriage a bit, no one is going to die w/o it, it's way overhyped. You dont have to be married, if ever at all, to live a rewarding life. I plan to make sure my kids know this when old enough, they are no lesser or better married or single, they arent required to be married or attached to someone forever, it doesnt define them, and dont let societal thinking of marriage become a rule in their life. Hope the best for you, stay strong!

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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> *Tell me what do you do to make yourself happy because we know your WW does not make you happy. It is sad to think of you merely existing - no person deserves to live like that.*


_"It is sad to think of you merely existing?"_

It not that bad, really. Interesting though the your observation about merely exiting... 

My fWW while still some deep fog with OM3 wrote an email to him telling him that our marriage was not a real partnership and how she wasted so many years with me and we have built nothing. Then...

*She characterized me as a person that merely exists, gets up does what you are supposed to, goes through Life just trying to make it out alive.
*
Hmmm.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

RWB said:


> _"It is sad to think of you merely existing?"_
> 
> It not that bad, really. Interesting though the your observation about merely exiting...
> 
> ...


My point is you deserve the best life possible. No one can make that happen except for you. I'm in your corner. I understand some people here dont like my posts but I can never be accused of not being in the BSs corner. I wish you the best RWB. I think you need to explore the fact with a therapist that you will sort of R with a serial cheater and would more exist than thrive IMO. Your WW had her fun, *so what do you do to make you happy? You still have not answered that question.* Your WW sure had no trouble taking what she wanted. You need to take what you want out of life.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> I am the one who is frustrated and I am the one who is determined not to have sex with her. If I am willing to be frustrated, why should anyone care what we do or don't do? As far as I can tell, she is not frustrated by the lack of sex. She likes not being pressured for unwanted sex. And she likes that I am no longer so wimpy and conflict-avoidant.
> 
> No, the herpes was not a factor in our sex life. She disclosed it before we got married (wish she had disclosed the multiple rapes). I trusted her to let me know when it was the "wrong" time to have sex, and she did. I just didn't realize that so much of the time would be the "wrong" time, or that there would be so much wrong time totally unrelated to herpes outbreaks. Or maybe she never had herpes and that was just a convenient excuse to put me off sex? I don't think so, but I do notice that she hasn't mentioned having an outbreak since we stopped having sex. Ah well, that has nothing to do with why I stopped having sex and if that has disappeared it would not entice me to resume sex.


Thanks for more info. I kind of see your point. Sounds like she kept a lot from you and you spent a lot of time trying to figure out what was going on. "Okay, you'll get better with help"... but 40years? (right). Yeah, I see that she messed with you since before the marriage. 

Herpes outbreaks can be once a year or 3... last for a week or so. I'm guessing you know this now (vs. decades ago). So I see the anger of the situation. Sorry.

But you are not happy. Your youth was stolen from you. Likely trapped by having kids too. Its amazing that YOU did not cheat on her, you stood by her. Many women would have been thrilled to have someone like you as their husband. I'd still divorce her (for the deception and not trying to do more). One of my friends is 66~67 years old. He still meets women and has sex. They are aged 30~45yrs old. But he has tons of experiences picking up women tho.

I wish you luck.


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