# Conservative vs. Liberal Christian Marriage



## hlmartin

My husband and I are both Christian and of the same denomination. However, he is more of a conservative and I'm more liberal. In the past he has been very critical of my views, and I have done\ haven't done certain things just to make him happy. But in doing that, being a Christian has lost its joy and become more of a burden. This has also had a negative affect on our relationship. He isn't as critical as he used to be, and doesn't say much when I do something that he doesn't agree with. But, I still know that doesn't agree with it. 

How do we not let our differences in beliefs get in the way of our relationship? How can I still have my own beliefs, and still make him happy? How do I not let his opinion affect my self-esteem, and make me feel like a bad person because my beliefs are not the same as his?


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## cb45

the problem i read here is.....
the very words u use "my beliefs/his beliefs."

this is where most if not all christians go wrong. we go astray w/ the notion of our beliefs differ from their beliefs. this shouldnt be the case, dont u agree? 
i mean, if Jesus is at the center of our being, our core, our beliefs then we shouldnt disagree(too strongly) over much of 
anything other than "i like sushi but he doesnt" or "what is an
idol to you dear?" kinda stuff.

if u r saying old testament thinking vs new testament thinking
then i can see some of what u r saying but again, w/ some
education/study u'd both see the common ground and no need
for small diff's to overwhelm yer rel'shp. u digg?

maybe i didnt get the gist of what u were trying to say as ur
post was alittle short. if so, then fire away.

yet in short, if u r both in christ then there should be harmony
not animosity/resentment brewing/growing.

ray:


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## hlmartin

cb45:

Sorry that I didn't explain my situation very well. I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. 

My husband doesn't like TV. He thinks most programs have a lot of morality issues, and he doesn't want the kids growing up watching TV...he thinks it will corrupt them. I don't completely agree with his opinion. I don't think all programs are bad, and watching two or three programs a week is fine. He has been very critical of me in the past, and for two years I didn't watch any TV because I wanted to make him happy. I do watch some TV now, but every time I do I feel like he is criticizing me even though he doesn't say anything out loud. 

These are the types of differences in beliefs that we have. 
So, how do we look past these differences? This has affected my self-esteem, because I feel like a bad christian\wife\mother because I don't always agree with him on certain issues.


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## 827Aug

I'm assuming the TV issues is only one of many issues. Do you even belong to the same religious denomination? Have you tried seeking help from your minister? I certainly see where you are going to have self-esteem issues--he is putting you down for your beliefs.


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## cb45

"sounds like life to me"---Darryl Worley (country song USA)

wow hl.....its so ironic u wrote this cuz its the same for me
and my W, just reversed. shes the conserv, me the liberal.
i went along while the kids were young, cuz parenthood can
make a conservative outta ya especially concerning child
rearing. i didnt like it sometimes, but compromised for kids
benefit. i knew my time woud come and it did when they
became teens.

now she whelps n whines but its her turn to compromise as 
me n the lads laugh at her. she doesnt like cussin, nudity,
and cheating story lines, as well as too much violence.

i dont prefer them either, but if not overwhelmed by any
of said dislikes, then hey, i'm from NYC NY, i've seen/heard
alot in my early youth, leaving me somewhat jaded and
calloused comp to her midwest upbringing.

richard pryor, eddie murphy, & chris rock have some funny
material, but i cant take hearing the bleep bleep bleep that
comes it, some days. but balanced tasteful writing and
cinema graphics makes most tv/movie fare palatable to me

my wife doesnt seem to know the bible as well as she should.
so we dont disagree there too often, as she cant quote as
well or as often as i can/do. i usually try to be diplomatic
about it tho' as i use neutral wording w/ words like:
"i think" "it could mean this/that" " i'm not sure...." etc.

i think if yer H can quote and develop his position based on the
bible, then u too should be able to retort in the SAME manner.
if there is a standoff on something then u either agree to disagree, or get the pastor to settle it for both u2, assuming
he's a strong pastor w/ semminary education etc.
i hope this helps.ray:


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## hlmartin

We belong to the same denomination...just he is more conservative than I am. 

As I said, he used to be very critical and always voiced his thoughts. Now, he doesn't say much and has even relaxed on some of his views. We actually just moved to a very secluded location, and he has offered to get me a satellite so that I wouldn't be bored. I think the problem now is the damage that the criticizing has done to me and my self-esteem. Every time I do something that I know he doesn't agree with, like watching TV, I feel bad about it and I feel like he is thinks bad about me...even though he says he doesn't.


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## CLucas976

Do you perhaps feel that he is right and not realize it?

I have a story to share that seems relevant so here goes.

until we started dating my husband never ever saw what I feel/felt christmas really was. I LOVE christmas, the magic of the season, the lights, the festivities, the family, and getting to give someone something that I feel will bring them joy and sharing that joy with them. (i especially strive to make my mom cry) The love of christmas means everything to me...I even bake brownies for my coworkers who have to work christmas eve and deliver them.

A friend of ours who is a self worshiping self proclaim messianic jew decided to throw in my husbands face where we are instructed to not errect a pine tree in our home with a star on it or whatever carved in it.

Many arguements ensued, how could we celebrate halloween and not christmas...a sharing of love and joy and family in the name of christ? I felt slighted and angry, there was a year we didn't have a tree up. Then the following year we got our tree, I thought I'd love it but it saddened me. 

I can't argue the word of god and while we're both in between liberal and conservative..he is right, I know it, I've accepted it, and it broke my heart.

My thoughts on tv are similar to a sermon a pastor at one of the churches we briefly attended gave. TV is noise. I can stare at that thing all day and never once have the thought to pray, clean, function, do anything, it blocks out my communication with god by numbing my mind and pacifying me. It's important to enjoy the silence, its important to communicate with god, and its important to hear the sounds god gave us to hear.

I haven't had cable in 2 years and I don't miss it. For kids, frankly the amount of obscenity on tv even with parental controls leaves maybe one or two channels, its ridiculous.

Perhaps it would help if you could watch something on tv with your husband, or just a christian movie with him. break that wall that was put up so long ago. With me and my dilemma, I had to realize ultimately my husband was right and all my whining didn't make up for it...so maybe you feel he's right too and are having guilt doing otherwise and its not so much his judgement your feeling but a mis identification of your own?


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## cb45

thats a good confession, esp coming from a messianic jewish family from buffalo, syracuse, or rochester(all of 'em, brrrrrr...)ny.

but i cant surmise how u or hubby explain the diff btwn xmas vs halloween???


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## SimplyAmorous

I think it is the black & white mentality , the Us vs. them mentality of many christians that causes this - and ultimitely the guilty feelings they lay at our feet when we disagree or want to enjoy something they condemn or feel is wrong. 

Many Liberal Christians do NOT take the Bible as infallable. Not sure where you stand on this, but generally the Conservatives DO, therein lies the problem. You are left questioning your own desires /wants - just because your husband sees them "too worldly" - "too fleshly" according to the scriptures & his interpretation. 

I can relate to how you feel but not because I live with a spouse who does this to me. I more so live with an older son who is very spiritual , and I often WANT to corrupt him a little cause I find him bashing the world in ways that I do not find harmful in any way, shape or form -nor do I feel a Loving God is against all that he claims. I often tell him if he turns into a Fundamentalist, I will kick him out of my house. We laugh about it. 

I am personally a black sheep myself, I still attend a very conservative Church on occasion - just cause I have friends there & they have an awesome program for the kids. But I know I would much more "fit in" with a Liberal minded Christian Church than where I am. Because of their separation mentality, I no longer even consider myself a Christian at all , the word itself invites much Judgement when conservatives want to look at your life. I fall miserably short, according to their decrees on what constitutes a REAL Christian. 

But I love my life , I believe in the Golden Rule- that God judges us by HOW we treat others, isn't that what it really comes down too - Shouldnt it - no matter our beliefs -but how we treat our fellow man ? I have always felt Liberals care more about THIS part of religion, whereas Conservatives expect such Holiness , some are SO heavenly minded that, they tend to overlook the mercy & trample it many times. Tolerance vanished. 

It really is a shame your husband is doing this to you, maybe he does not realize. He is probably more thinking of what His HOLY God expects from us, than how he is treating his fellow spouse. Please talk to him, I am sure he would not want to push you away from your beliefs or hear you are feeling them as more of a burden -because of his treatment towards you. 

You did say he is not as bad as he used to be. 
A blessing there. 

Moderation is the key in all things: not all Republicans are right, not all Democrats, not all Liberals , nor all conservatives, Much goodness can come from seeing another's side, if we just listen and observe, and not feel we have ALL the answers all of the time. Pray your husband gets ahold of this truth.


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## CLucas976

cb45 said:


> thats a good confession, esp coming from a messianic jewish family from buffalo, syracuse, or rochester(all of 'em, brrrrrr...)ny.
> 
> but i cant surmise how u or hubby explain the diff btwn xmas vs halloween???


we are not messianic jew, our self worshipping friend is, as a means to float his ego. (he's quite the character, but good at heart)

He didn't. He ignored it, Halloween has long been his favorite holiday, and I had stopped celebrating it until we started dating. 

I'm actually between rochester and syracuse in the middle of nowhere land.  (that was indeed a brief music reference btw, you seem to appreciate them)


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## cb45

tks CL i flip stns in the car sometimes and hear a "catchy" country tune, and say "hey maybe cuuuuntry aint all that bad?"

how can a messianic friend influence u n yer hubby so much?
am i missing something here, some piece of the puzzle?

Amorous wrote:

I think it is the black & white mentality , the Us vs. them mentality of many*?* christians that causes this - and ultimitely the guilty feelings they lay at our feet when we disagree or want to enjoy something they condemn or feel is wrong. 
*uh, we share the word, and the Holy Spirit does the rest, usually. sometimes presence alone causes nonbelievers discomfort too. funny we see here
at TAM many times "he/she makes me feel..." and once in awhile a sharp-one informs them(& the rm)that "no one can make u feel anything....." yada yada. unless u r getting yelled at & spat(spittle) upon, i dont see the feelings being transferred upon the listener, but insteadtriggered by what little(?) light they may have(left?) in them for the HSpirit to work with. *

Many*(really?)* Liberal Christians do NOT take the Bible as infallable.*i think some liberals are offended by this remark as the bible IS infallable, 'cuz they agree w/ Conserv's that it is MAN who is fallible, not Gods word.
(which by the way, is like saying God is fallible too since his word is)* Not sure where you stand on this, but generally the Conservatives DO, therein lies the problem. You are left questioning(one should question themselves, as well as others, esp wants/desires, no?) your own desires /wants - just because your husband sees them "too worldly" - "too fleshly" according to the scriptures & his interpretation.*i wrote on this earlier, not sure if it was w/ CL or not, but i wrote basically if she or he could back up scripturally what they're saying/contending over then
and the other couldnt refute it, scripturally he/she would be in 
the right. if both can produce scripture then agree to disagree or go see a semminary trained pastor etc.* 

I often tell him if he turns into a Fundamentalist, I will kick him out of my house.*(<---this would invalidate yer questionable liberal status, no?)* We laugh about it.*and yes, i get the joke aspect too.*

I am personally a black sheep myself, *(or wolf in sheeps clothing perhaps? see more below)*I still attend a very conservative Church on occasion - just cause I have friends there & they have an awesome program for the kids. But I know I would much more "fit in" with a Liberal minded Christian Church than where I am. Because of their separation mentality, I no longer even consider myself a Christian at all ,*(WOW. u either just came out the closet(in worst way)or miswrote who u r, what u really stand for....etc. humans babble enough as it is, but we 
should use extra care here, on spiritual matters/grounds/declarations, as u've just DENIED Jesus who was/is the Christ and Messiah.)* the word itself invites much Judgement when conservatives want to look at your life. I fall miserably short, according to their decrees on what constitutes a REAL Christian.*We all fall short, but if u r aware of it and praying 
for forgiveness, strength n wisdom to carry on, then Grace covers the rest. more on this below.* 

But I love my life*(too much perhaps?:scratchhead* , I believe in the Golden Rule- that God judges us by HOW we treat others, isn't that what it really comes down too - Shouldnt it - no matter our beliefs -but how we treat our fellow man ?(*Yes and No. yes part is obvious.
no part entails if u r Christian, then u dont write stuff like:" no matter our beliefs..." as beliefs matter period. Christians still to this day DIE FOR THEIR BELIEFS, as they did over the last 2 millennia. I guess by tone set here, liberals wouldnt dare lay down their lives aye?* I have always felt Liberals care more about THIS part of religion, whereas Conservatives expect such Holiness , some are SO heavenly minded that, they tend to overlook the mercy & trample it many times. Tolerance vanished. 

It really is a shame your husband is doing this to you, maybe he does not realize. He is probably more thinking of what His HOLY God expects from us, than how he is treating his fellow spouse. Please talk to him, I am sure he would not want to push you away from your beliefs or hear you are feeling them as more of a burden -because of his treatment towards you. 

Moderation is the key in all *(all? no!)*things: not all Republicans are right, not all Democrats, not all Liberals , nor all conservatives, Much goodness can come from seeing another's side, if we just listen and observe, and not feel we have ALL the answers all of the time.[

underlined above is probably best thing u wrote here & its so universally used/restated u cant really claim it as yer idea. heck i've even used it in the past, but not usually w/ religious-spiritual things.

i'd like u to state clearly, who u r, or what u really believe amorous, as these are both interchangible and ONE & the SAME. U start out calling yerself a liberal but write like a wolf who was in sheeps clothing by denying Jesus as already quoted/commented on above. Better u say u r coming from the devils den or some such, so the reader may know where u 2 are coming from.

i am Christian. not liberal, not conservative. those labels are usually used by both secular(somewhat ignorant) and church
"scholarly" types alike to manage complex people/ideas to something they can comprehend & respond to. i recognize i may share some views that are deemed liberal or conserv by
others but that does not make me stamped-branded-fixed
in any camp. for i seek the truth, which has no party affliation last time i checked(and i'm independent, as politics go).

absolute truth is in the bible. i may not always like it, but thats just about the only place i'll find it 100% of the time on earth.
i'm not going to quote Peter, Paul, or the Master himself, as i get the impression coming from me, it wouldnt phase u any, as u may not be learned enough to keep up or counter w/ any
biblical quotations.

if i seem harsh (or conservative in yer explanation of things,lol)
its because if one is all over the map(on your post)on who they are giving advice on the christian angle of things, saying shes a liberal christian, then not, then.....what? if yer not w/ Jesus then yer against him, whether u acknowledge it or not. i dont want yer beliefs to go unchallenged here, esp on relationships n spirituality. 

am i trying to personally shove "guilty feelings" on ya? 
nope. but if the HSpirit does that 4 ya consider yerself really fortunate, as u have chance to turn away from what is fundamentally the opposite of Gods thinking. i.e., Plan of man's salvation begins and ends w/ Jesus life death and resurrection.

am i trying to change yer liberal mindset? yes & no. yes, because anyone who(in reality)believes in nothing, will fall for anything(---originator unknown)! Paul wrote of women not being leaders in church, based on this proclivity, originally displayed by Eve.
and no, because if u r coming from a compassion side of things as a christian then, i'm all for sharpening my sword, iron to iron, as i'll only get learn something new and/or get better as a result for the next battle/trial/meeting etc.

i look forward to any n all responses from hlmartin(the OP), CL, amorous, et al.


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## CLucas976

because with my husband, if you point something out in the bible that he does that it says not to, and he can't find a way to justify why its okay when he does it...he in turn will become a preacher for that point. So when shown where it specifically instructs not to do that, he can't argue it.

hes still young in his biblical understanding and since the tree was something easy for him to drop, it was okay to do so. (vs anything he actually enjoys, which would be hard to give up)


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## cb45

YouTube - Beautiful One - Chris Tomlin LYRICS

i shouldve used mood(lighting)links to get us "in the spirit" 
perhaps, b4 i approched this subject. my apologies.

YouTube - MY REDEEMER LIVES - NICOLE C MULLEN VIDEO WITH LYRICS

or if u wanna dance/celebrate......

YouTube - Mary Mary - Shackles (Praise You)

And pt of fact re: my philos/spirituality:

God isnt: a conservative, liberal, apologist, democrat, republican,independent, american,israeli,catholic, protestant
or jew.
God isnt: islamic, hindu, hebrew or even a christian. 
Gods name isnt: allah, jehovah, yeshua,el shaddai, adoni, or any other name that only describe one of his many characteristics he can display.

names are limiting/labeling functions for man's puny brain to try to comprehend and communicate w/ God on our limited scale of capabilities. names connotate ownership and mgmt of same, as already describe above. no one owns God. He owns us.

there is more to say, but this will suffice for now.ray:


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## cb45

*GOD IS LOVE.

GOD IS LOVE.

(AND AGAIN I STATE(BIBLICALLY TOO):

GOD IS LOVE.:smthumbup:

:angel3::thumbup:ray::smnotworthy::yay::biggrinangelA::corkysm60::woohoo::fish:*


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## cb45

to CL,
I'd say cut hubby some slack as we all have to start somewhere. as long as he's earnest/honest in his attempts,
i think he'll mature thru exp's some day maybe soon to see what u see on "pumpkin vs tree."

he'll come to see the parallels btwn all pagan rituals vs
christian/jewish/biblical ones. most likely in study grps i'd say.
tv also has alot of teaching it can provide, if u r selective, that is.

he'll probably resist anything from u, but maybe if u tighten up yer study/knowledge base, u may find him jealously listening to u in the future. its happened many times b4 across the globe & in history.

whatta ya think?:scratchhead:


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## CLucas976

lol, do not ever start a conversation with my husband about the parallels between pagan rituals and "christian" practices. he knows all about all of them, and he will tell you. 

he's one of those people that gets a high on a piece of information and goes with it, where as I soak in information and process it.

He's the guy yelling at non believers, while I'm the person talking to them about their beliefs and why they believe that way.

I refuse to debate religion, he'll get into a knock down drag out fight over it we're quite opposites really. We both believe the word should be spread, however i try to cause a spark in someones mind to go explore christ, and he tries to beat them in the head with jesus..which is why I say he's very young in it, he can get that high, but he can't apply it properly to himself or anyone else quite yet.

Halloween is just his favorite holiday.


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## OneMarriedGuy

OK, I read all this and wonder why the subject of communication and respect for each other seems to have taken a back seat to "just how Christian are you/me/they/us/thems?"

First of all - let me make a statement that I believe is true. There is not a non-hypocritical Christian walking the earth today, quite frankly, never has been as Jesus himself (while undoubtedly Christlike, was considered a Jew, not a Christian ) Let face it, we all do things that are not up to snuff. 

I am very lucky to belong to a church that has a very good pastor. Not only is he quite a good speaker and teacher, he also is quick to point out "Look at Christ, not me, I'm full of mistakes". So while he on a vigilant quest to reduce those mistakes he does not say "you bad, me good".

Oh now see I'm doing it too  LOL

Now where was I? Ah yes communication and respect. Two way street for both of them. Personally I think this is the area that the two of you need to come together at, then the other stuff can become discussions instead of accusations.

Just my 2 yen


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## hlmartin

I believe there is absolute truth, which comes from God and his word. But, I think that God works with each one individually. He leads everyone to the same place, just not all at the same time. We all have different sins that we're struggling with. For some, it may be TV. But for others, they have bigger fish to fry; something that is more detrimental to them than watching TV. I also think that a person has to truly understand something before they can believe it. For instance TV, a person needs to really understand why it's bad and how it affects THEM. Someone can tell me over and over again, and I can even read it in the Bible...but if I don't UNDERSTAND, then it will make no difference in my life. It just becomes legalistic if we follow rules without knowing why. 

So my husband my be convicted not to watch TV. But, I have not been convicted of that at this point in my life. Maybe someday I will, but maybe I never will. It doesn't mean that I'm not a sincere Christian. However, I will say, I do have certain standards when it comes to TV and movies. I only watch things that have a rating PG13 or under.


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## Tanelornpete

Ever looked at it this way?



> ...Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall...​


If any activity becomes a stumbling block, a barricade to treating another with love, is it not the most loving thing you can do to give that up? If your husband _is_ an immature Christian, he will grow up over time. If on the other hand, he is right, won't that also become apparent over time? As a 'mature' Christian, you already are aware of the fact that everything this world offers is temporary and nothing compared to what is to come. Which is more important: winning the battle of what you get to watch on TV or helping another grow?

If you find the things you give up to be a source of anger - angry that you are missing them, or that you are deprived of them - does that not show that they were given undue priority anyway? 

Just something to consider.


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## cb45

Pete,
good form my old man, good form indeed!

u covered me too in above post, in more ways than one.

was that purposely/subtly done, or did the Holy

Spirit just convict me w/ unbeknownst help from u?

(dont give me a "eh eh" now, Pete)

thanks 4 yer service/insight/rebuke intended or not.


ray:


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## SimplyAmorous

CB: 

I am not in any wolf's sheep clothing by any means, I do not claim to be a christian any more at all. All of my church friends know this, and they either have the choice to dust off their feet or continue to be my friend, according to the Scriptures. It matters not to me, how anyone believes but how they live & treat others. 

When I was a Christian - and called myself so, FOR ME -it hindered me mentally in many ways, I was more judgemental, less merciful, less willing to try to understand people, but more interested in winning battles with scripture -- in reality, I was less Loving. 

I understand I was probably missing it in ways that I was unaware of. But when you are taught, "Believe this, or burn in Hell", often times -this is the result. My son is a wonderful christian, he is not hindered in the ways I was, so he likes to tell me I was never a Christian in reality. Maybe he is right. If so, I wasted alot of years being hindered religiously and that is just a shame. 

I DO question many many many things written in the Bible. Do I trust all of the men who have handled it over the years , who decided which books to include, which were deemed unorthodox, and all of the interpretations handled down .  I do not. I feel much of what we have gathered through the years was even "political" motivated. 

Then on top of getting it totally infallable - do you realize there are about 8 different methods to interpret scripture? (Literal, Midrash, Pesher, Allegorical , Typological, Christological, Functional & historical Document). Jews use Midrash. Christians tend to use Literal -which can cause alot of problems when you loose site of LOVE/ caring for your fellow man, putting scripture ABOVE how you live & act (this is what I mean when I say a Fundamentalist- they can be ANY religion). 
Just look at the Westboro Church/Fred Phelps (I think that is as extreme of an example as I can give in the US). 

I have studied the Bible more than I care to admit. I accually enjoy discussing Religion. I love learning where all of these doctrines originally came from. And in doing this, many of my questions to WHY started to get answered. Unfortunetly it led me to a different place in my beliefs. Man has abused scripture mercilessly over the ages. Of coarse you say it is all man, I agree with you!!!! But it is MAN using these scriptures that christians feel are completely INfallible. ONe must be very careful. 

Did you know they directly used John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned". This was the chosen scripture used during the Inquistions - to enable man to burn man at the stake -and feel justified in doing so . Maybe you agree with that, I dont' know. Most Protestants look up to Martin Luther but how many know of his inifluence on the Holaucast itself because of his USING scripture in his phamplet "On Jews & their lies" (redistributed during Hitler's reign). Martin Luther might have started out as a Good holy man, good intentions for the Jews, but nearing the end of his life, He did a GRAVE disservice to humanity. He penned literally everything Hitler carried out, using Jesus's "infallible" word. 

I personally feel the whole church went wrong when they choose St Augustines interpretation of scripture over Pelagius back in the 500's. 2 men seeking after God with all of their hearts, SAME Bible - DIFFERENT interpretations. It happens & will continue to happen to the end of time. 

We are infact taught, Blood had to be shed, our Creator had to slaughter his own "son" to ACCEPT his own Creation = Original Sin Doctrine - which led to "Limbo' and some other rediculous horrendous man made ideas. (Parents were being taught if they lost their son or daughtger before Baptism, that he/she goes directly to Hell -because of Original Sin , so they had to Create LIMBO) 

I feel this is an INSULT to our Creator. I believe Pelagius was right, he used the same Bible as St Augustine, he was deemed ORTHODOX a number of times, there were even rumors that stallions were "bribed" to influence St Augustine winning the Debate. We will never know , will we? It would not surprise me in the least if it was Polically motivated, as in those days, The Church ran the land & much had to be gained by having all men being dependent on the Church. 

Just some History here, every well informed Christians should know the roots of their Doctrines, and the men who helped influence them. And the other side of the story.... Why Pelagius was Right


Sorry so long and off the subject !! It is just to imply that saying " it all boils down to what scripture says" is not such an easy task, as well intentioned decent Christian folk may still not see eye to eye.


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## cb45

very interesting indeed....on more than one level, Amorous.



*But......some contradictions seen below. *

Pelagius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*most noteworthy are:*

"Due to his status as a heretic, little of his work has come down to the present day except in the quotes of his opponents. However, more recently some have defended Pelagius as a misunderstood orthodox:[1]

Recent analysis of his thinking suggests that it was, in fact, highly orthodox, following in the tradition established by the early fathers and in keeping with the teaching of the church in both the East and the West.... From what we are able to piece together from the few sources available... it seems that the Celtic monk held to an orthodox view *[ouch?)*of the prevenience of God's grace, and did not assert *(double ouch?)*that individuals could achieve salvation purely by their own efforts..."

I thank you for reminding me of Pelagius' existence in ancient church teachings. I think he was passed over quickly in college due to lack of material.

i will follow up further when i get the chance to research more n gather my thoughts better as there is rm for both agrmt and disagreement on what u originally wrote.

till then.....shalom.:sleeping:


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## cb45

aaah, yaaaah, very interesting...!


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## cb45

SimplyA, :gun:..................(forgive the inevit wordwrap)

I don’t take offense to what you write as God himself has granted you freedom re: your beliefs & your very own soul. I am somewhat perplexed by how you would deny Jesus based on the folly of humanity or church institutions, and I am concerned for your soul. I pray God uses your precious son ( my “brother in arms”) to call you back into the fold so to speak but I am fearful that this isn’t a “walk in the park” procedure for God or his Holy Spirit to perform based on your “denial” as it were. I admit I am in need of further study b4 I ramble off any edicts here. Hebrews comes to mind as a place to start.

You sound as though you have much knowledge re: biblical critiques to have posted that Pelagius article link on TAM. I wonder if you could display as much virtuosity w/ the bible only for now, so that we may compare apples to apples, etc. Perhaps later on, where relevant and expedient, you would care to engage other sources into the discussion/postings.
[:2gunsfiring_v1:]
I challenged your ref to the golden rule being enough to get one into heaven. Not while you are aware of Jesus Christ and ALL he represents can I believe you would write such nonsense. I think you and most who read this know what I am saying here w/out further explanation. Therefore, I’ll let this important pt lie here for now.
[:banned2:]
Yet I do take exception w/ anyone who denies the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, and the Messiah who took/takes away the sins of the world. Say what you may of us, his followers, but do not smear his name, his deeds, & his divinity, just because you haven’t earnestly/spiritually read the bible that speaks of him from Genesis thru Revelation, or don’t like what you read/see/hear/experience these days about Christians past & present.
And if you have truly read the bible front to back (by some miracle) who sir/madam was your spiritual teacher? For if you contest Jesus’ divinity etc, then it wasn’t the Holy Spirit who taught you was it?
(John 16: 7-14) 
[:soapbox:]
The 1st observation I’d like to put forward re: Pelagius is, he took liberties(as did Loflin, we call them P & L) to impose suppositions on scriptures, starting w/ Adam in Genesis all the way up to the Pauline letters (which all of us may be guilty of from time to time, yet aren’t quoted in such “scholarly”(?) fashion as Loflin). e.g., both P and L seem to assume what God was thinking re: Adams mortality pre-garden fall. I will not write an essay like Lewis here, saying so n so was right in that Adam was mortal and God had plans to keep him that way, based on what little Genesis showed us. In fact, I could just as easily write the opposite as Gods intention but I am not looking to be presumptuous w/ Gods word. Should I attempt such an essay, I’d be sure to use phrases like “he may/he might” or “I think….possibly, I’m not sure,” etc.

2nd Adam’s sin was disobeying Gods command to not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Adam in effect compounded that sin by choosing to stay with Eve, rather than God when he bit (metaphorically) into Eve’s already bitten apple. Whether Adam felt pity, compassion, loneliness, or even idolatry, one cannot say, but I have made a supposition here which you the reader may find so appealing you accepted it as truth:

“ Adam further compounded that sin by choosing to stay with Eve rather than God when he bit (metaphorically) into Eve’s already bitten apple.” 

While this sentence may be deemed a reasonable inference, it is not fact. Only the Adam sentence preceding it was fact (Genesis 3). Yet because one sentence followed another, many a reader can be duped into following along. This is often indicative of how satan works w/ mankind’s lack of reasoning skills, mixing truth w/ a lie to make it palatable/believable, yet ultimately nonproductive or destructive altogether. A better example perhaps is Jesus’ temptation in the desert:

Then the devil came to him and said, "If you are God's Son, tell these stones to turn into bread." 
Jesus answered, "The Scriptures say: 'No one can live only on food. People need every word that God has spoken.' "
Next, the devil took Jesus to the holy city and had him stand on the highest part of the temple. The devil said, "If you are God's Son, jump off. The Scriptures say: 'God will give his angels orders about you. They will catch you in their arms, and you won't hurt your feet on the stones.' " 
Jesus answered, "The Scriptures also say, 'don’t try to test the Lord your God!' " 
Finally, the devil took Jesus up on a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms on earth and their power. The devil said to him, "I will give all this to you, if you will bow down and worship me." 
Jesus answered, "Go away Satan! The Scriptures say: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve only him.' " 
Then the devil left Jesus, and angels came to help him. 
[:FIREdevil:]
Notice how on his first two attempts satan appeals to Jesus’ self-centeredness or pride by questioning his identity with God the Father, to be remedied only by two miraculous actions. Jesus would have none of this, as to do so would show him to be a “doer” or listener of satans bidding/commands, and Jesus’ ears (even in his/this weakened state; hungry/thirsty, tired, hot, etc) were intently on Gods instructions, not the devils’ plans. 
Notice also in these same attempts how the devil mixes truth with a lie as he did with Eve at the tree and consequently with Adam as well. If we tweak the wording a bit to illustrate my point we’ll see {truth}“…you are God’s Son,{lie } [you must] turn these stones to bread.” AND again…{truth } “ God will give his angels orders about you, [So]{lie } jump off and they will catch you in their arms and you won’t [even] hurt your feet on the stones.” (The 3rd temptation/attempt was pure serpent desperation and an outright lie, for satan has no kingdoms to grant, and isn’t eligible for true worship as he is not God.)

Concerning Adams “original sin” and the consequence(s) that followed, it is true that there is not ONE black & white written scripture, which states the case for all to see. Yet if you read throughout the bible you’ll see a common theme (amongst several/many) concerning man and his self-centered nature
and capacity for sin (best epitomized by Noah’s story), whose ancestral tracing dates back to Adam and Eve in Genesis. Paul writes well of it in both Romans 5: 12-21 and Corinthians 15: 22; and David also in Psalms 51: 5 & 58:3 .
[:rant:]
These are just some examples of many contentions believers and non-believers alike can have concerning bible truth, bible accuracy, biblical interpretation literal or figurative etc. The list is endless. I could write and another would counter. They could write and I would counter, and so forth.
However there are “pillars of truth” or basic tenets w/in the bible itself that are not subject to loose interpretation or pt counter pt except for the most argumentative of individuals.
This is especially true concerning the “cornerstone” of the bible, Jesus Christ. This is the major flaw and/or reason (loose interp of Jesus’ divinity) for Gnostic texts’ non-acceptance by the early councils (Laodicea et al that followed).
[:crazy:]
Gnostic gospels are considered weird, mystical texts in many Christian minds/hearts even today. Only scholars like to tamper with their “abstract fire.” I know for one, that I tried to read them online many yrs ago, and I literally felt the sensation of losing ones mind, or “the whirlwind” as the bible describes it in proverbs, Job, et al passages. () Bizarre and frightening indeed! Needless to say, I haven’t attempted to read them since. ()
[:butterfly:]
SimplyA you seem to be a stereotypical(as u think me,lol) non-believer type of person(despite yer bkground) living in a westernized civilized country, enjoying its many comforts, splendors, and excesses. Most of which cloud our understanding and propensity to be righteous and forthright, upholding ancient beliefs despite the ever changing selfish world conforming us to its mold w/out supernatural intervention from God via the scriptures, prayers, music and witnesses.
It is fearful to read of a once proclaimed Christian who writes with biblical familiarity scholarly rejecting Christ based on some bad experiences/observations of “professed” Christians, who Jesus himself may say on their judgment day (and yours?) “….depart from me…I knew you not.”(Matthew 7:23) Sympathetical perhaps but fearful still nevertheless. 
Re-read Hebrews (prayerfully that is), I think you may see. 
[:whip:]
It is not enough to do/be good, and not give Jesus his proper place in your life of helping you judge what is good, what is right, and most importantly him as your representative before the father, pleading your case (with his blood) as satan is there accusing you of everything/anything. 
[:iagree:]
The golden rule is fine as a simplistic way of saying what Jesus already said in the bible well before he arrived here on earth. That is “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.” (Deut 6:5)	
And likewise, he continued: “…..AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. “ (Luke) BUT......

....Jesus later would reveal himself as the Son of God, and later pronounce to the world, “No one goes to the Father except through me.”(John 14:6) to which I read, with some help from Paul’s later letters, that good works are like the law (10 commandments) for the Jews, they may be good/holy but they cannot get you into heaven for God is perfect, the law is perfect, but you are not perfect, or consistent in keeping perfectly the perfect law of God. You (& I ) need forgiveness for transgressions of these laws. God has shown the price for forgiveness of sins via the blood shedding sacrifices in the old testament culminating in the ultimate new testament sacrifice of his own sinless son, Jesus Christ. (And being God of course it goes w/out saying HE makes the rules re: forgiveness, not us)

Søren Kierkegaard, seems to agree w/ a lot of what you, Tanelornpete, Pelagius, and Lewis Loflin think
about the many incongruities of yesterdays/today’s Christian church. I don’t pretend to defend the atrocities that have taken place in the name of Christianity. I would agree w/ many a Muslim, Heretic, Coptic, et al., about some of the abuses, brain washings, tortures, $$-power grabs, killings as being antichrist-like in nature themselves. But there are far more beneficiaries than victims from Christianities contribution to world societies today and throughout history, as well as many negative examples on these other groups’ side of the ledger as well.
So which axiom would you like me (“don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater” or “one bad apple doesn’t spoil….”) to simply apply here?
TPete however seems to be a unique combo of intellectual-pragmatist-scribe who still embraces Christianity despite its practitioner’s interpretational flaws seen today and throughout history, whereas you SimplyA, Kierkegaard and P & L apparently do not.
[:rules:]
I don’t state reforms and reformers as unnecessary. But I don’t give up Jesus just because, e.g., as an elder/leader in our church you decide to hold an orgy in the public square, or commit heinous murders over the same time period you were doing home bible studies w/ us fellow parishioners. 
Sure, I may call attn to pagan rituals w/in my church, call for reform, maybe even get shunned or ex-communicated, but I don’t/won’t, give up Jesus as Lord. I may be tortured into falsely (tortured denial = falsehood here, yes?) denying him, that’s possible (I hope for Holy Spirit – divine help should it ever come) but that’s the only possible way I see me denying Jesus.
What does this make me? Charismatic? Liberal? Conservative? Simpleton? (Don’t answer that:lol

In the end, no matter how much we go back n forth on biblical tenets, where no one is convinced of changing their views/beliefs, there is one currency that trumps all currencies. That currency is FAITH. :smthumbup: 

But “that”, as Paul Harvey used to say on the radio, “is another story(posting/essay).” In PM perhaps?

Faith vs. reasoning. Yum.


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## SimplyAmorous

Hlmartin: 

So sorry! Me & Cb here has hijacked your thread! Food for thought for anyone who enjoys a Good Debate though. Just imagine the problems, if you will, that me & CB would encounter if we were married !!!! I think you and your husband will be fine, very minor issues. 

In response to CB:



cb45 said:


> I challenged your ref to the golden rule being enough to get one into heaven. Not while you are aware of Jesus Christ and ALL he represents can I believe you would write such nonsense.


 I don't remember saying anything about getting into Heaven, but maybe I did? Until I die, I have no idea such a Utopia exists, but it would be nice. 

Speaking for myself here, if my Creator cares *more* about MY BELIEF (who Jesus was , Trinity doctrine) than how I treat my fellow man, I find little value in Religion and even would find it shallow. You believe God created us sinful from birth & He can not stand the sight/stench of us (but wait a minute, he LOVES us unconditionally on earth?), but at the same time, requires a Blood sacrifice of infact -"himself" to ACCEPT us or we are DESERVING of Hellfire for eternity. Am I the only one who sees this Masocistic in nature? I have struggled with the love of this for more than 20 yrs. I understand others do not, I only speak for myself. I watched "the Passion", have heard so many Christians will not look upon an R rated movie, but will take their kids to see THIS! Some things I will never comprehend. A little passionate romance between a man & a woman is more natural and Godly than that movie. 

Of coarse we sin , screw up and need to reconcile here down on earth , and make things right, that is what I feel God wants from man - as a whole, that is our Repentence >>> Get right with Man , then you are right with God/your Creator. 


Neither you can Prove Jesus was born of a virgin & rose from the dead any more than I can prove he did not. But to imply that the Creator of the Universe will send ALL to a Fiery Hell -because we question this is preposterous to me, and makes him Evil. Even the Historian Josephus who lived when Jesus walked this earth only penned a mere paragragh about his Life. If he truly did all that we read in the Bible, it would have been vastly more. 

You realize all Christians must have an abundance of FAITH in the writers of the accounts of the Bible, which were written decades AFTER Christ had died. And he was not, in fact, the 
1st claimed for a virgin birth, here is a list of others- you may not care for the source, but it gives the names/ places to look further into this study. We all know none of this is true. Virgin Births in History The fact is this: Myths of virgin births were part of many if not of all the surrounding pagan religions during that time when Jesus lived & died. Is it totally inconceivable Christianity used it also? Just as 
St Augustine used the influence of "Manichaeism". Then the scriptural intent can be called into question if you still believe it as fact. Just another interpretation (using scripture) here :
Prophecy of Virgin Birth 



cb45 said:


> It is fearful to read of a once proclaimed Christian who writes with biblical familiarity scholarly rejecting Christ based on some bad experiences/observations of “professed” Christians, who Jesus himself may say on their judgment day (and yours?) “….depart from me…I knew you not.”(Matthew 7:23) Sympathetical perhaps but fearful still nevertheless.


 For me personally, I did not leave Christianity because of other Christians in my life, most have been wonderful to me & a Blessing- and still are. I have WAY more in common with Christians in how I conduct my life than Parties/Drinkers or the like. I still attend Church, I appreciate most of the moral teachings given there, on how to conduct one's life & family. The Bible itself -because I have read it (although the Old testament was terribly boring & hum drum to muddle through- I can not claim to have read it all). 

The WORD itself was MY PROBLEM, lead to my doubting, my questioning and my Quest to make sense of what I was reading. I have grave problems with more than a few scriptures. Then it suddenly dawned on me, I could see HOW many mortal men could accually DO the atrocities they have done in the Name of God -becaues of the very scriptures I have read. So can I blame it all on man? I say NO in the face of those who claim it is all 100% inspired by God. There have been more websites created & books written for Atheism by men who HAVE indeed READ IT ALL -compared to those who have not read or know the scriptures. 





cb45 said:


> Søren Kierkegaard, seems to agree w/ a lot of what you, Tanelornpete, Pelagius, and Lewis Loflin think
> about the many incongruities of yesterdays/today’s Christian church. I don’t pretend to defend the atrocities that have taken place in the name of Christianity. I would agree w/ many a Muslim, Heretic, Coptic, et al., about some of the abuses, brain washings, tortures, $$-power grabs, killings as being antichrist-like in nature themselves. But there are far more beneficiaries than victims from Christianities contribution to world societies today and throughout history, as well as many negative examples on these other groups’ side of the ledger as well.
> .


 I would like to expand your mental outlook on this -just a little. What we have in Democracy of today (here in the US anyway), I would argue came through much of the Blood, doubt & writings of Free-thinkers, than Christianity itself, at least from those in control of the Church & the Land. I have great respect & admiration for some Christian sects, such as the Quakers , as they faught for the rights of Slaves before great men & Leaders in the Churchs of old. But the Quakers had so little power. Also what is so interesting is: The Quakers generally did not adhere to any certain concrete Doctrine or dogma, so they were more tolerable with mankind. Whether you believed Jesus was born of a virgin , for them, this mattered little. The fact you had flesh & blood running through your veins, mattered much. 

I dare any Christian who feels the scales tilt MORE to the Religious/to scripture - contributing to our Freedoms of today - to buy this book, read it from cover to cover- or at least the introduction to wet your appetite, of historys OTHER Martrys so rarely mentioned. So much we take for granted ! I owe many of these men & women the credit due to why I can personally speak freely today -even on this forum. Amazon.com: 2000 Years of Disbelief: Famous People With the Courage to Doubt (9781573920674): James A. Haught: Books Many Evangelicals today would like to destroy "Separation of Church & State". I thank God for that. When I was a christian, I personally could not understand the problem , till I read some of the history of it & studied it. 

Thomas Jefferson & other Deistic minded Leaders succeeded in halting tax support for the Angelican Church & passing a statute of religious freedom. Before this, there was a state law that decreed Death for heresy & 3 yrs in prison for doubting the Trinity. 

Michael Servetus, who discovered the pulmonary circlulation of blood was burned alive in John Calvin's Geneva in 1553 for doubting the Trinity. 

Philosopher Giodano Bruno was burned in 1600 for contending that the earth circles the sun and the universe was infinite. Galileo was sentenced to a life in prisonment for writing his belief that the earth moves. 

All of these things were done because they dared say/write/believe something against scriptural interpretation. I am thankful I did not live in that time frame, because being a Thinker at heart, I would have been killed if I opened my mouth. 

Always welcome to PM me CB ! 

I want to challenge your Mind as much as you want to challenge my Faith! It's been fun.


----------



## cb45

I want to challenge your Mind as much as you want to challenge my Faith! It's been fun. ----simplyA.

aaah yes, but the mind is finite while faith is infinite.


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## cb45

YouTube - The Youngbloods - Get Together

"you can make mountains ring, or make the angels cry..."----Youngbloods (from "get together")


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## cb45

Hlmartin: 

So sorry! Me & Cb here has hijacked your thread! Food for thought for anyone who enjoys a Good Debate though. Just imagine the problems, if you will, that me & CB would encounter if we were married !!!! I think you and your husband will be fine, very minor issues.------SimplyA.


:lol:___:lol:____funny,  but true.:iagree:
Unless of course theres a lot shes not telling us.


----------



## cb45

SimplyAmorous said:


> Hlmartin:
> 
> In response to CB:
> 
> I don't remember saying anything about getting into Heaven, but maybe I did? Until I die, I have no idea such a Utopia exists, but it would be nice. *you're right, i cant find it exactly worded, my bad/sorry.*
> 
> Speaking for myself here, if my Creator cares *more* about MY BELIEF (who Jesus was , Trinity doctrine) than how I treat my fellow man, I find little value in Religion and even would find it shallow. You believe God created {*Adam perfect, then the tree/fall incident, then as a consequence we became....}*us sinful from birth & He can not stand the sight/stench of us (but wait a minute, he LOVES us unconditionally on earth?), but at the same time, requires a Blood sacrifice of infact -"himself" to ACCEPT us or we are DESERVING of Hellfire for eternity. Am I the only one who sees this Masocistic in nature?*{u'll have to take it up w/ him someday as he's God, w/ all the answers, not me. i know this is yer perspective & one of many some could choose here. also too, there r some mysteries Man cant understand, tho' i choose to accept that Gods ways are not my ways, and Gods thoughts are not my thoughts.....([http://bible.cc/isaiah/55-8.htm}* I have struggled with the love of this for more than 20 yrs. I understand others do not, I only speak for myself. I watched "the Passion", have heard so many Christians will not look upon an R rated movie, but will take their kids*{depends what ages u talkin' bout}* to see THIS! Some things I will never comprehend.*{<---truth, yet...fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom}* A little passionate romance between a man & a woman is more natural and Godly than that movie.
> 
> Of coarse we sin , screw up and need to reconcile here down on earth , and make things right, that is what I feel God wants from man - as a whole, that is our Repentence >>> Get right with Man , then you are right with God/your Creator.
> *{simplistic but true. yet this isnt the "be all - end all" btwn God & man, is my pt (u digg?).}*
> 
> 
> Neither you can Prove Jesus was born of a virgin & rose from the dead any more than I can prove he did not. But to imply that the Creator of the Universe will send ALL to a Fiery Hell -because we question this is preposterous to me, and makes him Evil.*{<--where'd u get this garbage from "A"? did u escape the adventists/baptists/methodists? or did/do u study too much negative material (ala the nonbiblical links u provide) which poisoned Gods word for u?* Even the Historian Josephus who lived when Jesus walked this earth only penned a mere paragragh about his Life. *[possibly true as orig scripts were lost so who knows, couldve been more? 2ndly, Josephus' credibility has been questioned by many a scholar as he was Jew & all Jew at that, so not inclined to favor Jesus and his NEW (competing) religious sect. 3rdly, his main concern was Jewish history surviving the Roman holocaust at the time, not Jesus' small sect of followers. w/ this perspective its miraculous he mentioned The Christ at all!* If he truly did all that we read in the Bible, it would have been vastly more. *{see my previous comment, & also know that a historian isnt going to quote every "wives tale" he hears (oral news back then, no CNN, sorry) for his tediously expensive written work (papyrus, ink, etc., expensive back then, yes?).
> But hey, i'll quote Jospehus here (since u didnt) and let our readers decide for themselves (oh, i underlined here, not wiki or translaters, just 4 emphasis.):}
> *
> "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
> 
> *thank u josephus, u may sit down now. by the way, whether u see the above paragraph as pro vs con on what one Jewish historian wrote about Jesus (for there were Roman writings as well, origs lost as usual), know this too about Josephus' character. that he and some men saught to defend jotapata(now yodfat), a site in northern galilee, and when faced w/ defeat they all determined to kill
> themselves rather than be taken by the Romans.
> i'll paste a quote from "the jewish wars" by josephus himself:
> *
> "Without hesitation each man in turn offered his throat for the next man to cut, in the belief that a moment later his commander would die too. Life was sweet, but not so sweet as death if Josephus died with them! But Josephus - shall we put it down to divine providence or just luck - was left with one other man....he used persuasion, they made a pact, and both remained alive."
> 
> *ah yes, cowardly so, no? at least my teachers/professors thought so as we had a laugh over this one in history, political/science classes yrs ago.:lol:
> still i wish to be fair to both sides of this disagreement, w/ just
> alittle of background/history on josephus. u make what u will of it all. is the glass half empty or half full, OR can u see the whole glass?*
> 
> You realize all Christians must have an abundance of FAITH in the writers of the accounts of the Bible, which were written decades AFTER Christ had died. And he was not, in fact, the
> 1st claimed for a virgin birth, here is a list of others- you may not care for the source, but it gives the names/ places to look further into this study. We all know none of this is true. Virgin Births in History The fact is this: Myths of virgin births were part of many if not of all the surrounding pagan religions during that time when Jesus lived & died. Is it totally inconceivable Christianity used it also? *{no, but really so what? virgin birth is not the big issue concerning Jesus' mission is it? God doesnt need virgin birth to instill divinity on any of us, his "sons"! ha! after all he is GOD!* Just as St Augustine used the influence of "Manichaeism". Then the scriptural intent can be called into question if you still believe it as fact. Just another interpretation (using scripture) here :
> Prophecy of Virgin Birth *eeenhhhh, not so fast "A". here's my copy/paste job for all to read:*
> 
> "According to Alfred Edersheim, the great Jewish scholar converted to Christianity over a century ago, the Jews recognize eight stages of growth (3). He says that the word almah pertains to the sixth stage, which is between dependent childhood and independent youth (4). By its connotation of firmness and strength, the word suggests the rapid bodily growth of early adolescence (5). Thus, an almah was a girl about twelve to fourteen years old. The closest English equivalents to almah are "maiden" and "damsel" (6). "Young woman," although passable as a translation, stretches the concept too far into adulthood.
> 
> The rabbis taught that a father should betroth his daughter to his slave rather than keep her unbetrothed beyond puberty (7). A girl was normally married before she passed much beyond fourteen (8). Thus, since almah specifically denotes a girl at the stage of growth just before marriage, the term apparently came to signify "unmarried girl of marriageable age" (9). And since nearly all unmarried girls in ancient Hebrew culture were chaste, the term seems to have acquired the further meaning "virgin" (10). In some of the texts exhibiting almah, "virgin" is clearly the most appropriate translation."
> 
> *OR if u like, the full online story w/ kudos to the moorings.com*
> The Virgin Birth of Christ: Prophecies in Genesis and Isaiah
> 
> For me personally, I did not leave Christianity because of other Christians in my life, most have been wonderful to me & a Blessing- and still are. I have WAY more in common with Christians in how I conduct my life than Parties/Drinkers or the like. I still attend Church, I appreciate most of the moral teachings given there, on how to conduct one's life & family. The Bible itself -because I have read it (although the Old testament was terribly boring & hum drum to muddle through- I can not claim to have read it all). *{Pardon my sarcasm but u either dont attend church often, or they dont preach the WORD too frequently there(which hmmm, doesnt make it much of a church i think in Gods view,yes?)OR u veg-out/fall asleep while pastors preaching eh?
> as to wit below:}*
> The WORD itself was MY PROBLEM, lead to my doubting, my questioning and my Quest to make sense of what I was reading. I have grave problems with more than a few scriptures. Then it suddenly dawned on me, I could see HOW many mortal men could accually DO the atrocities they have done in the Name of God -becaues of the very scriptures I have read. So can I blame it all on man?*{uh gee, how many retorts on this one is necessary?
> hmmm, already mentioned WOLVES in sheeps clothing to u, and u acted as if u understood this concept. 2ndly, many folks who called/call themselves christian(s) werent/arent at all when they a)cannot read the bible(hebrew/greek/latin, ages past, no education, u digg?) b)havent understood it, for too numerous a reason to list/describe here, to use it (the bible) as justification for their actions/atrocities. in essence, they give christianity a bad name, when they were never REALLY christians at all !!!
> 
> again as Jesus said he will say "that day"......i never knew you!"
> 
> * I say NO in the face of those who claim it is all 100% inspired by God.*{AND I SAY YES, YES, YES. (now go and sleep on yer side of the bed, and i'll sleep on mine.....:rofl: }* There have been more websites created & books written for Atheism by men who HAVE indeed READ IT ALL -compared to those who have not read or know the scriptures. *{<---again A, so what? security in numbers? geesh, u do have a problem w/ the WORD as u said for u'd know better/be wiser than to type this tripe out, from many standpoints. OR havent u learned about the majority vs. the minority when it comes to entry into heaven?
> do i really need to remind/quote u what THE master said re:*
> "..."You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way." [Matt 7:13 NLT] ???
> 
> *Or is it A, u dont listen/believe anything he saith, because he wasnt born of a virgin in YOUR mind?) *
> 
> I would like to expand your mental outlook on this -just a little. What we have in Democracy of today (here in the US anyway), I would argue came through much of the Blood, doubt & writings of Free-thinkers, than Christianity itself, at least from those in control of the Church & the Land. I have great respect & admiration for some Christian sects, such as the Quakers , as they faught for the rights of Slaves before great men & Leaders in the Churchs of old. But the Quakers had so little power. Also what is so interesting is: The Quakers generally did not adhere to any certain concrete Doctrine or dogma, so they were more tolerable with mankind. Whether you believed Jesus was born of a virgin , for them, this mattered little. The fact you had flesh & blood running through your veins, mattered much. *{yes yes, and this flesh is gettin' hungry now...(yells to W in kitchen"hey hon, we have any oatmeal in the pantry? i'm suddenly gettin' a hankerin' fer some oatmeal all a sudden.." yuk yuk.:lol: oh, by the way A, we're a republic moreso now, not a democracy. free think the online research & lemme know what u come up w/, k?}*
> 
> I dare any Christian who feels the scales tilt MORE to the Religious/to scripture - contributing to our Freedoms of today - to buy this book, read it from cover to cover- or at least the introduction to wet your appetite, of historys OTHER Martrys so rarely mentioned. So much we take for granted ! I owe many of these men & women the credit due to why I can personally speak freely today -even on this forum. Amazon.com: 2000 Years of Disbelief: Famous People With the Courage to Doubt (9781573920674): James A. Haught: Books Many Evangelicals today would like to destroy "Separation of Church & State". I thank God for that. When I was a christian, I personally could not understand the problem , till I read some of the history of it & studied it.
> 
> Thomas Jefferson & other Deistic minded Leaders succeeded in halting tax support for the Angelican Church & passing a statute of religious freedom. Before this, there was a state law that decreed Death for heresy & 3 yrs in prison for doubting the Trinity.
> 
> Michael Servetus, who discovered the pulmonary circlulation of blood was burned alive in John Calvin's Geneva in 1553 for doubting the Trinity.
> 
> Philosopher Giodano Bruno was burned in 1600 for contending that the earth circles the sun and the universe was infinite. Galileo was sentenced to a life in prisonment for writing his belief that the earth moves.
> 
> All of these things were done because they dared say/write/believe something against scriptural interpretation. I am thankful I did not live in that time frame, because being a Thinker at heart, I would have been killed if I opened my mouth. *{actually u wouldve been busy doing "other" things my dear, as a woman that is.(use yer OWN imagination):lol: } * Always welcome to PM me CB ! [:iagree:]
> 
> I want to challenge your Mind as much as you want to challenge my Faith! It's been fun.


:BoomSmilie_anim:


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## hlmartin

If nothing else, this forum has helped me to gain perspective just by writing out my thoughts. 

I don't think this is a big issue in our marriage, at least not anymore. I think my husband has come to understand how his criticism, which he viewed as simply trying to help "lead" me, was affecting me. He really doesn't criticise me anymore, but it has just affected my mind so much that it is difficult for me to believe that he really doesn't think less of me for having different opinions...but that is more my problem than his. Lately, I have really been sitting on the fence, feeling so lost in my beliefs, but my husband has been very non-judgmental about it and given me my space.


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## hlmartin

BTW, glad to have spurred some debate with my thread


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## SimplyAmorous

hlmartin said:


> BTW, glad to have spurred some debate with my thread


 Very happy to hear you didn't mind!!  

I personally adore a Good heated debate, anyday. Although I realize that is NOT how you reach people- for change. It is Love & Understanding, basically the fruits of the spirit , as it should be. Feeling you "won" the verbal war with another really means nothing. 

It doesn't bother me at all what others believe - if any belief helps you be a more respectful loving human being to contribute to the Good of society as a whole, that is Kosher with me. 

I have found, in my own de-conversion, I now realize I have MORE in common with some of my friends of other faiths, than I ever took time to notice, this has been a Blessing. 

Hlmartin: Give your husband a kiss tonight & let him know that you appreciate him these days.


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## cb45

:rofl:

Amorous,

u make me chuckle as i can see u doing a little curtseying bit here only after yer soliloquy performance befitting a queen of stage & screen. touché madame. touché.


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