# Running Out of Patience With Anxious, Coughing, Increasingly High-Maintenance Wife



## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

We've been together for ten years, and this problem has ramped up terribly in the last two years or so. I'm now feeling completely exhausted from battling it.

I should qualify this by pointing out that she also has a chronic cough which she refuses to see the doctor about, which she attributes to "asthma". It's gotten worse, and now almost never stops. Sometimes I'm repeating myself because she asks me a question and coughs over the answer. If she's awake, she's probably coughing, and it's a harsh, explosive cough that can be heard from anywhere in the house and comes in groups of 3-5, several times an hour. Aside from being frustrating, it's also exacerbating the other issues, because it feels like an extension of the pestering. In fact, I'm wondering if it's psychogenic and an attention-seeking mechanism.

I get up to go to the bathroom, and she wants to know where I'm going.

I look in the fridge, and she wants to know what I'm looking for.

She always wants to know where my personal belongings are. There's always a reminder about how to do something I'm already going to do anyway. She always needs to know something while I'm looking something else up, as if she can't or shouldn't look it up on her own instead of asking that I drop what I'm doing.

She grabs half-empty cups off my desk while I'm drinking out of them because she seemingly literally does not stop cleaning and wants to wash them immediately, then complains about how hard it is to clean so much. We tried to get her a housekeeper but she keeps cancelling appointments because she worries that the housekeeper will cancel at the last minute and so cleans to her own standard the day before.

I go into my home office to work and she'll be in and out repeatedly to talk about things, or start bringing me multiple meals that I do not need or even want. My office is near the laundry, and so the intrusions in my office, too, are exacerbated by her being over my shoulder already from doing what seems like multiple loads of laundry every day. There are only two of us. How can there be this much laundry?

I haven't been quiet about these things, we've talked about them directly, but she feels attacked and even though she acknowledges the behavior and why it might be annoying, won't make an effort to change. In fact, she often thinks I should be grateful to be repeatedly interrupted during my work day because she thinks she's "helping", to the point that when I snipped at her for bringing me a sandwich - the third meal she'd brought me in two hours - she said "how about saying 'thank you'" and I had to grab her, physically turn her around, and walk her out of my office and shut the door behind her, while she was still talking with the door closed. No matter how clear the signals are, from obvious frustration to direct requests, she's just not getting them.

My last nerve is ground down to a nub. This lack of boundaries is not normal. She has a therapist due to a family tragedy a few years ago but I don't think she's getting help for this. I would genuinely rather be alone in a studio apartment - in total peace - than navigate this. Is there anything left for me to do here?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Yes.... get a studio apartment with a 6 month lease.

If that's not enough for her to seek help you'll have your answer.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Do you want to stay together or do you want to be alone? Either is fine, but it's hard to advise you without knowing what your long term goal is. Do you know what you really want?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Sounds like a lock on your office door is needed, either that or office space AWAY from your home. 

She sounds like maybe she has some form of OCD or something. Maybe some ADD as well? Has she been evaluated for any kind of disorders? Because this does NOT sound normal, and your annoyance is understandable, I felt exhausted just reading that. 

Have you cheated on her in the past? Asking because maybe this is an extreme expression of insecurity and lack of trust in you. Just a thought. Was she always like this??

Oh and the cough.. is she on any meds? There are some meds that can cause a cough like you describe.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> Do you want to stay together or do you want to be alone? Either is fine, but it's hard to advise you without knowing what your long term goal is. Do you know what you really want?


I'd love to stay together if these problem behaviors resolved. We had eight incredible years and two increasingly stressful, clingy ones.

I'm just not seeing the investment on her part. If anything, there are other issues I haven't gone into, including her recent need to try to spend money she does not have. I have started to feel like I just have a completely self-absorbed and oblivious wife walking around freely acting on her stream of consciousness - "I want a new mattress", "I need to cough", "I'll tell my husband what's in the dryer, down to which specific socks, even though he's obviously in a meeting" - with no regard whatsoever for me. It's baffling and bizarre to have a direct conversation about it, have it acknowledged, and then the behaviors just go on.

The cough has really pushed me over the edge. We had to travel for the holidays and it was three hours of coughing on the way up, coughing while shopping, coughing while dining, three hours of coughing on the way back, and then at the end of the train trip, she actually looked at me and said "...someone was snoring...". We discussed the cough several times while we were away, she is not unaware that she is coughing very hard and very loudly, and that she would not realize she's been driving me insane on the train ride home was stunning.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Then tell her that specifically and take action that match your words. Setup appointments with a marital counselor and individual counselors, and also start getting referrals for a good divorce attorney if the counseling doesn't work. Let your wife know what you are doing so there are no surprises and so that she knows you mean what you say and this is her time to act if she wants to continue with the marriage. You might also want to read "mating in captivity" which might explain your need for more space when your wife is getting clingy.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Get her to a doctor even if you have to physically carry her.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Definitely a lock on your office door that is used, a set “office hours”. That will get you some reprieve. Agree that you will come out at lunch at a certain time, and then you guys can eat lunch together. Those should help with the work day interruptions and food pushing.

I would start to use my headphones a lot of the time outside of work hours. When she interrupts to tell you she was trying to talk to you, and why do you have your headphones in I would say this _calmly_:

“Like I have been mentioning for quite a while, I find your constant cough to be annoying. I know you think it is mean for me to feel this way, and since you have decided not to get it disagnosed by a doctor, this is the only way I have come up to cope with it. This way I don’t hurt your feelings.” Then pop the headphone back in. Continue to do this. If she is not mentally ill, she will start to make some changes.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

I agree with @Andy1001. First, she needs a complete physical check-up. Something as simple as chronic sinus drainage can cause coughing.

OCD type behavior maybe be attention-seeking, but may reflect her need to be needed. 

What happened two years ago when her behavior started to change--that is your key? This will get worse, not better unless you intervene. I'd still get a lock for my office door--sets a tone that you mean business and also explain that you want to help her.

How old is she?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

You wife probably has some form or OCD, sounds extreme. Ask to go to her therapist with her and talk to them about it. She is suffering from mental illness. Sounds like you love your wife, so you need do some research and have the information there to back you up. Then you need to sit her down and calmly and lovingly explain to her that you think she is suffering from this and you both need to seek help to seek treatment because it's getting worse and it's making her difficult to live with. But you need to do this gently so she will listen to you. Then if it were me I would say "Wife, we as a family have to go get you help with this. I know you are scared but we are going to go together and I will be with you as you address this, but you must address this or we are not going to make it."

It's very possible she has PTSD from the family tragedy (which you don't go into detail about).

Was she always like this?

Did it start to happen after this tragedy?

Was this something that happened with no warning that she wasn't prepared for? (Hence making her hyper vigilant which can translate into other areas) Hyper vigilance is about control. She can't control whatever this event was, but she can keep her house clean which makes her feel safe. She probably knows this is crazy but can't stop so she compensates by bringing you lunch. 

Point is she needs help and you as her husband should help her get it. I would start with asking to go with her to see the therapist.

Good luck.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> Yes.... get a studio apartment with a 6 month lease.
> 
> If that's not enough for her to seek help you'll have your answer.


Dude, read this like a 1000 times. 

Here is the deal, I am not a doc, but this sounds like some type of OCD, and it is getting worse. Her therapist sounds like a quack, or she is not telling him/her what she is actually doing, so she needs another one, yesterday.

The cough could be a lot of things but it needs to be treated. 

You on the other hand need to take charge of your life, and set some boundaries to keep your sanity. 

How long has this crap been going on? Do you guys even have sex at all, coughing and all???

You need to get real about this or you will be in the nut house yourself...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

How old and how heavy / tall / physical shape she is... Can't help but wonder if there's some cardio or lung related issue. What's the humidity? Cough drops help?

As for the other behaviors, she sounds a bit over the top. Is she lonely? Grossly insecure? Needs validation?


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

john117 said:


> How old and how heavy / tall / physical shape she is... Can't help but wonder if there's some cardio or lung related issue. What's the humidity? Cough drops help?
> 
> As for the other behaviors, she sounds a bit over the top. Is she lonely? Grossly insecure? Needs validation?


To address some of the questions people have been asking:

Her health is generally excellent, and our sex life is great, other than me losing interest when my frustration level is maxed out. There's no rhyme or reason to when she stops coughing, but it's never been a disruption in bed and it's one reason I suspect it could be habitual and not actually have a medical cause. She refuses to see the doctor because she "knows" there's nothing to be done about it, but that was a decade ago when she last asked and it wasn't this prominent. She's always had a moderate cough and a bit of a fixation on dust, but lately it's just gotten more intense and she's been more high strung.

As to the family tragedy, it was a sudden and violent death that came with quite a bit of family drama, right at the start of the winter, and it was very hard for us both. The trouble started with her behavioral patterns started two years after, and each winter has been the same way - we're going into the third winter where she's over the top. The behaviors ease up around March and I tend to forget how bad it was, she seemingly denies that it happened at all, then before the holidays things tend to go downhill again.

Yes, I would characterize a lot of the anxiety as "insecure" and "needing validation". She had a small upset two weeks ago because a coworker thought his wife's job was harder than theirs, and she was annoyed for two days that he had failed to recognize that _her_ job, naturally, was the hardest. Quite a bit of her anxiety seems to revolve around her job duties, especially trivial confrontation, and several times we've ended up having arguments because she'll ruminate over something that only barely happened (say, a petty disagreements that the other person probably never thought about again) for a week or so until I have to be much more forceful in asking her to let it go and she gets hurt feelings because she then feels that I "won't let her talk". She would like to leave the job and we would like to relocate, but she is unwilling to give up her income, there aren't many positions in her field, and she struggles to seriously consider changing roles, so we were aiming for moving at retirement.

I agree 100% about PTSD and OCD-like symptoms. She has acknowledged this on her own and some of what went on last winter was the trigger for her starting counseling again. I also agree that this counselor is a quack. Unfortunately, her last counselor, who was quite good, also died.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

What you are describing could be verbal tics, such as with tourette's syndrome. Yes, coughing is sometimes a tic. Especially the way you are describing it. Being too vocal can also be a variation (being loud, or obnoxious, at times there is no reason to be). 

Have you noticed anything else like:

clearing her throat

shoulder shrugs

clicks or whistles or other repeated verbal sounds (these are also tics sometimes, it depends on whether the person is conscious of it all the time or not)

Also her talking about and understanding why these issues are a problem for you, but then doing them anyway in a baffling manner, that goes along with some autistic clusters of behaviors.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

a_mister said:


> I agree 100% about PTSD and OCD-like symptoms. She has acknowledged this on her own and some of what went on last winter was the trigger for her starting counseling again. I also agree that this counselor is a quack. Unfortunately, *her last counselor,* who was quite good, *also died*.


Yikes!

Any hoarding behaviors?

Yes, there is clearly a problem here and she may continue to get worse unless you or her family and you can somehow convince her to seek immediate help. What is happening to her, over time, will very likely end up a totally unmanagable disorder.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yikes!
> 
> Any hoarding behaviors?
> 
> Yes, there is clearly a problem here and she may continue to get worse unless you or her family and you can somehow convince her to seek immediate help. What is happening to her, over time, will very likely end up a totally unmanagable disorder.


No, no hoarding, quite the opposite. One of her leading sources of anxiety in the home is "clutter". I've gotten a couple of real whopper text message screeds over the last couple years about how my desk being disorderly is going to give her a heart attack.

I replied calmly each time and explained to her that there will always be a reason to be upset if she wants a reason to be upset, and then she'd eventually get over it and apologize, but it goes hand-in-hand with snatching my coffee mug to wash it while I'm literally reaching for it to drink out of it. There have also been a couple instances where I've been standing at my desk and we hugged, and I realized that her eyes were darting all over my desk looking at the things on it, as her body tensed up. The fixation on cleaning is definitely excessive.

Remodeling the bathroom last fall was a nightmare because my contractor ran over the schedule by a month or so, and she could not tolerate the disorder in the home at all. Any dust that she found for the rest of the winter was blamed on "stupid Carl". What was supposed to be a nice thing for her mostly just made me regret doing it and that does make me sad.

It's also worth noting - and this is an unfortunate connection I've only made this week - that her father "couldn't take it" and left her mother at roughly this age. I have to admit that I am wondering there was a behavioral shift that he got fed up with that I'm also watching play out.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

a_mister said:


> No, no hoarding, quite the opposite. One of her leading sources of anxiety in the home is "clutter". I've gotten a couple of real whopper text message screeds over the last couple years about how my desk being disorderly is going to give her a heart attack.
> 
> I replied calmly each time and explained to her that there will always be a reason to be upset if she wants a reason to be upset, and then she'd eventually get over it and apologize, but it goes hand-in-hand with snatching my coffee mug to wash it while I'm literally reaching for it to drink out of it. There have also been a couple instances where I've been standing at my desk and we hugged, and I realized that her eyes were darting all over my desk looking at the things on it, as her body tensed up. The fixation on cleaning is definitely excessive.
> 
> ...


What you are describing is a very serious disorder that is taking hold over her. It may be on the personality disorder spectrum, or it may be on the OCD spectrum, or it may be on the autism spectrum. But there is most certainly something going on.

Cleaning can be just as disabling as hoarding and it can be for the same "reason" (root causes).


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I had assumed from reading how much she disrupts your work that she did not actually have a job of her own. Does she also work from home, or do you work opposite shifts? I was going to suggest she get a job LOL... Is she on any meds for her moods and/or anxiety?


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## sa58 (Feb 26, 2018)

Very sorry to hear about this situation that you are
going through, You love and care about your wife very much
it shows in your posts. I agree your wife needs to see a doctor.
From your posts this seems to be triggered by something and 
then goes away in March. Something is causing this trigger, either
physically, emotionally, or a combination of the two. I also agree
that this will eventually grow worse over time. You need to take 
charge of this situation now and get her medical help. ASAP

In my viewpoint moving out will not solve the problem but could 
probably make things worse. She seems to be already clinging to
you in some ways. This is something best treated by medical 
professionals in my viewpoint. I wish you the best and urge you 
and her family ( even if she tries to refuse )to get her medical 
advise and help .

Take care of yourself as well and her also.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Your wife is ill.

She needs to see a specialist to make sure her lungs are not compromised.

If not, then she needs to see specialists who treat mental health disorders.

Incidentally, your wife might be showing signs of a coping strategy. "My dad left my mom. That might have been because she did not look after him well enough. I'll be super nice and super attentive to my husband to make sure he doesn't leave me." Which is having the opposite effect. 

I would also suggest couple's counselling, too.


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## Oldtimer (May 25, 2018)

I agree with some of the others who posted. I had a cough for many years and was teased, tormented and it became one of the many negatives that people knew me by.

Turns out that it was a tic that I had picked up early in life and it took many years for my mind to catch up with my brain that it wasn’t my throat laden with cancer or such illness. 

Paxil and relaxation helped me with the slight very annoying disorder I had and it’s clear now. Yes there were times when it became very explosive and any in my way fell to the power of that cough lol.

Your wife may have some mild disorder similar to Tourette’s that manifests itself in the ocd behaviour and the coughing. Have her checked.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

a_mister said:


> We've been together for ten years, and this problem has ramped up terribly in the last two years or so. I'm now feeling completely exhausted from battling it.
> 
> I should qualify this by pointing out that she also has a chronic cough which she refuses to see the doctor about, which she attributes to "asthma". It's gotten worse, and now almost never stops. Sometimes I'm repeating myself because she asks me a question and coughs over the answer. *If she's awake, she's probably coughing,* and it's a harsh, explosive cough that can be heard from anywhere in the house and comes in groups of 3-5, several times an hour. Aside from being frustrating, it's also exacerbating the other issues, because it feels like an extension of the pestering. In fact, I'm wondering if it's psychogenic and an attention-seeking mechanism.
> 
> ...


You have been given excellent advice to secure medical treatment. This is likely to lead to psychiatric treatment. Good news is that there is treatment. Don't just endure and feel guilty. She is ill--don't let her make decisions on whether or not to be treated.

Be sure the chest specialist knows wife coughs only when she is awake. Specialist can rule out medical issues.

Where do you live? Seasonal OCD is now sometimes treated by psychiatrists with intensive light therapy. 
It is my understanding that the alteration of brain serotoninergic systems in OCD supports the use of light therapy for the treatment of seasonal OCD. 

Because symptoms are seasonal they are often ignored until they become horribly annoying to those living with the patient.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> I agree with some of the others who posted. I had a cough for many years and was teased, tormented and it became one of the many negatives that people knew me by.
> 
> Turns out that it was a tic that I had picked up early in life and it took many years for my mind to catch up with my brain that it wasn’t my throat laden with cancer or such illness.
> 
> ...


Yes that’s what it sounds like to me too. And if she can understand what is happening, she can learn her body and relaxation techniques enough to counter act the tendency to do these tics. And can instead find ways for her throat to rest from all the coughing. It takes self awareness of the problem first, though.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Wow. Your poor wife clearly already has an anxiety disorder, and likely PTSD on top...your callousness toward her is likely compounding that.

I too have a cough. It IS asthma related, it is a hacking, horrible cough. Guess what? I can't help it and likely neither can your wife. Trust me, it's 100 times worse for HER than it is for you.

For a forum that's supposed to be pro marriage, an awful lot of people on here jump straight to "divorce her". Your wife needs help and compassion ffs.


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## EveningThoughts (Jul 12, 2018)

....


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

I too had a bad cough for about 1 year. It sounded awful and my lungs felt like it was filled of fluid. What I had was an egg/ corn allergy and it just manifests with a cough.

Also, some heart meds can give a cough.

Sounds like your wife also have some mental health issues. I can understand your frustration. I am going thru something similar with my mother in law. Please take her to the doctor, make the appointment and take her. Get her to an allergist and also a cardiologist. 

Good luck.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

3Xnocharm said:


> I had assumed from reading how much she disrupts your work that she did not actually have a job of her own. Does she also work from home, or do you work opposite shifts? I was going to suggest she get a job LOL... Is she on any meds for her moods and/or anxiety?


No, no medications, and she's never had a formal diagnosis beyond PTSD for insurance purposes. 

Her job is highly flexible and somewhat seasonal, half on-site and half at home. She's off this week. 

We did have a discussion last night, polite, about what happened yesterday, and she was able to acknowledge that it would be very upsetting if I repeatedly barged into her office, but said it made her feel "unloved" and claimed that asking her to respect a a boundary about my work day is "controlling". I had to explain that no, setting boundaries and asking for them to be respected is not "controlling", and that it really should not have to be argued because most people would realize intuitively that as someone becomes visibly frustrated with being bothered, they should back off.

On the other side of the issue: 



EveningThoughts said:


> You say your wife's cough has gotten worse, has her asthma?
> Asthma can be affected by the weather, climate or how high above sea level you are etc.
> What inhalers does she use? If I didn't use a daily steroid inhaler I would probably have an asthma cough....


No traction on the discussion about her cough, because it's "better today". She is not on any inhalers, she claims she was placed on albuterol once when she was younger and that it "didn't work", so there's no point in asking again. Beyond this cough, she has no typical asthma symptoms. She has also made statements indicating that her fear of dust was a problem in her prior relationship, which leads me to...



sunsetmist said:


> Seasonal OCD


Holy cow.

Thank you so much for introducing me to this term. An article I dug up on cleaning-related OCD not only fit the bill, but described certain difficulties we've had with unusually rigorous cleaning practices (such as towel-drying the sink) to the letter. I've never heard of a seasonal component, but it makes a lot of sense and is something for us to discuss.

One other thing to respond to:



frusdil said:


> Wow. Your poor wife clearly already has an anxiety disorder, and likely PTSD on top...your callousness toward her is likely compounding that.


1) This is a venue where people can be relatively unfiltered about their troubles, and I have every right to be highly frustrated. Ironically, she has her own intolerance of noises: my eating popcorn, clinking a spoon while I stir coffee, ice in my drinks, the barking dog a block away who is only outside for a few minutes each night. Hopefully, you can understand why patiently listening to those complaints makes her own refusal to take her own noise - far louder and more sustained - seriously that much more upsetting.

2) You are not on the receiving end of it and need to consider that people navigating someone else's struggles deserve compassion, as well. When she went without counseling, I was fielding full-on rage episodes about some of the most trivial grievances you could dream up. That angry drama has not been an issue so far this winter, but winter literally just started and I'm already pegging the meter on my own stress level. It is absolutely not "callousness" for a person to simply have a limit.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I don't perceive your annoyance as being callous at all. It is warranted and understandable, and anyone dealing with this would be in exactly the same frame of mind as you. Are you ever in her counseling sessions with her? I am just curious if maybe her therapist has no idea of her behavior....


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

3Xnocharm said:


> I don't perceive your annoyance as being callous at all. It is warranted and understandable, and anyone dealing with this would be in exactly the same frame of mind as you. Are you ever in her counseling sessions with her? I am just curious if maybe her therapist has no idea of her behavior....


I haven't been to sessions with her, her initial grief counselor seemed to be horrified by the idea, although I had a few conversations with the (late) good one. I'm confident she isn't disclosing it, because she tends to claim to "forget" that anything happened, possibly out of embarrassment.

A month or two ago she was repeatedly pestering me about the chores we needed to do, as we walked around shopping together, etc. I started signalling to her that we needed to change the subject, spelling out that I know and won't forget, and that she's already said, etc. When we came home I brought in the groceries and she started going over the list again, and I said something like "Look, I'm going to get that this afternoon, we've discussed it in detail and it's going to be OK. I need to go to the bathroom first then I'll go get the tools."

I'm not kidding: she literally came into the bathroom while I was on the toilet to resume the conversation. As in, mid-poop, she's trying to tell me about the carpet on the stairs. I finally had to explicitly tell her to get the F out, and her feelings were hurt, but later in the day I mentioned that she'd really driven me over the top in the morning, and she seemed confused, acting like nothing had happened.

Fast forward to today, this just played out:

She went on a grocery run and called me when she was five minutes out, in a good mood, because she needed a hand. Happy to help. I stepped off a conference call that didn't really need me to help her bring them in, quickly.

We chit-chatted a little bit as she ran them in, then she accidentally knocked over a bed stacked up in pieces in the garage. It's heavy. I hurry to pick it up, with a smile, and in the process of picking it up, stubbed my toe in bare feet. So as I'm going to clip my toenail, she hands me a pair of socks that need to go in the laundry and I said "sure", and tossed them down the stairs toward my office to handle later. I have already made special time out of my day to help with a chore and it's turned into more than I anticipated. The nailclippers are upstairs, the office and laundry room are downstairs. As I run upstairs from the kitchen, naturally, I hear the usual check-in.

"Where are you going? Are you going to take a shower?"

:|

Ignored it. Clipped my nail, down two flights of stairs, rejoined my call. Five minutes later:

"I asked you to put the socks in the laundry!"

I mute the call. "I know, I'm on a call, I'll get to it after."

Her voice spikes and she starts yelling something about needing respect and me making her life harder.

Now my temper is spiked. "JESUS CHRIST. I AM HAPPY TO DO THIS BUT I. AM. AT. WORK. I HAVE TO FINISH THIS CALL."

"Why didn't you just tell me that instead of getting pissy?"

"I did, and you started yelling."

"I didn't yell."

:|

Now she's upstairs slamming cabinet doors as she puts groceries away and huffing like she's about to cry. I understand that she needs everything in its place but this is not a sock emergency. 

Last year she had a severe tantrum because I wasn't able to take time off from work to help her rake leaves at the specific moment she suddenly decided it was time to rake them. I explained to her that we could do it on the weekend and that she needed to let me know in advance but that I have an obligation to be at work during business hours, and she really lost it, claiming she shouldn't have to "wait until [I'm] ready". She also later denied that this occurred. I suspect people talking about OCD as a control strategy are really onto something.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

Man, this is a real mess........


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If I were you, I would find a really good therapist that both specializes in OCD and will work with you together, go see him once by yourself, and then schedule an appointment with her. Go home and tell her that you have scheduled an appointment to see this doctor, it's such and such day and time, and the two of you will be going. 

If she balks, you calmly look her in the eyes and say "I love you but I cannot continue down this path. Either you go with me to these appointments and we find a solution or I'll have to look at other arrangements. I want to get this resolved together, as a team. Will you go with me?"

If she says yes, great, you'll be working on this together as a team. If she says no, as your first respondent said, a 6-month contract on an apartment will let her know you're serious.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

a_mister said:


> No, no medications, and she's never had a formal diagnosis beyond PTSD for insurance purposes.
> 
> Her job is highly flexible and somewhat seasonal, half on-site and half at home. She's off this week.
> 
> ...


My wife has Asperger's Syndrome. I work from home and I feel the irritation you feel and the guilt when you blow your cool and shout at your wife when she forget you are working.

Your wife sounds worse than mine to be honest.

Any possibility she might be on the ASD spectrum?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

a_mister said:


> I haven't been to sessions with her, her initial grief counselor seemed to be horrified by the idea, although I had a few conversations with the (late) good one. I'm confident she isn't disclosing it, because she tends to claim to "forget" that anything happened, possibly out of embarrassment.
> 
> A month or two ago she was repeatedly pestering me about the chores we needed to do, as we walked around shopping together, etc. I started signalling to her that we needed to change the subject, spelling out that I know and won't forget, and that she's already said, etc. When we came home I brought in the groceries and she started going over the list again, and I said something like "Look, I'm going to get that this afternoon, we've discussed it in detail and it's going to be OK. I need to go to the bathroom first then I'll go get the tools."
> 
> ...


Did you marry my wife's sister? 

Does she have problems with sense of direction, inability to cope with maps, timetables and the like?

She definitely sounds ASD to me.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> My wife has Asperger's Syndrome. I work from home and I feel the irritation you feel and the guilt when you blow your cool and shout at your wife when she forget you are working.
> 
> Your wife sounds worse than mine to be honest.
> 
> Any possibility she might be on the ASD spectrum?


Could very well be. I know it's different with women and some signs would make sense, others don't fit her at all. She can definitely be a rule-follower, though, and naive about dishonest people, which causes her a lot of grief.

Either way, we had a bit of a blowout today. She's been bubbling and turbulent for the last two days, and admittedly, I was perhaps not my smiling self because I could tell what was coming. Yesterday she had a health anxiety panic that she came down from quickly once she explained what was going on and I brought it to her attention that it was probably nothing based on some details. (This wasn't a crazy/hypochondriac thing, it was something that's legitimately alarming, but the specifics I happened to know indicated it was not what she was thinking, and she dialed it down considerably, but was still upset because she knows she has to get it checked out.) All day long she was ruminating over it, though, and when we went out to dinner, she was visibly exhausted and distressed, and I asked her if she was OK a couple of times, because she looked like she was under terrible stress.

Well, today, we spent an hour and a half going over the last two days, and it was ugly. I learned the following about myself:

- Cringing or objecting when she loudly coughs directly at my ear is psychological abuse.

- I never buy her anything, even though we're taking a week-long vacation to Europe on my dime next week. When I pointed this out, and also went over her Christmas, she said nothing.

- My lack of interest in converting to Roman Catholicism, which she became active in again after the family tragedy but had never mentioned once in the prior six or seven years, is "controlling".

- I apparently never spend the money I earn on what she wants it spent on (untrue, and in fact, this trip is something she's wanted for three years), and this, too, is "controlling". Saving for retirement instead of spending on lifestyle is controlling. Asking her to go to the doctor is controlling. She feels broadly "too controlled" in a general, free-floating sense.

- She has a very demanding professional job and I don't take it seriously, because I won't patiently listen to her ruminate over small conflicts at work for the tenth or fifteenth time. Setting any boundaries whatsoever on these conversations is apparently equivalent to her being "not allowed" to talk about work at all.

- She is certain that everyone is talking about how unloved she is and how I am somehow "taking advantage" of her.

Unfortunately, I had to record these conversations. I was able to do this because I know the pattern of her boiling over too well and expected today would be the day. I made it clear during these conversations that most of this is clearly her episodic anxiety talking, and eventually got frustrated and told her that if she feels so controlled and abused, I'd be happy to part ways so she can finally have the life of freedom, unburdened by whatever "advantage" I'm gleaning from her, that she seems to be asking for.

That went right over her head and she kept talking, until I asked her if she was willing to go to couples counseling. She agreed, but then protested that there will be insurance problems. Since she's found a reason we won't be able to, from past behavior, I suspect the real answer is "no", however I feel that it's no longer negotiable.

I'm going to select two or three therapists to pitch to her, otherwise I may be going on vacation by myself and going from there. I'm worn out.

It turns out the most highly recommended one is a therapist she saw briefly but quit because during an attempt at EMDR therapy, she is sure caught the therapist rolling her eyes while she talked about her anxieties. (I, too, apparently roll my eyes without knowing it. I know this because she screamed it at me today.) I hate to say it, but she might be the best to meet with, because if that's true, she's already seen what I've seen and understands it can be exhausting.

 I appreciate having a spot to vent here. After this was all over, I went to take a shower and got out to find her passed out on the couch asleep. She's wearing herself out, too.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@a_mister To use a famous quotation: "Been there, done that, got the t-shirt." 

I do feel your pain.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Do you want to stay in this marriage?

If so, why?


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Do you want to stay in this marriage?
> 
> If so, why?


She's excellent with the home, loyal, a great cook, and amazing in bed. Not to mention that she's been a longtime travel companion, we have a lot of history together, and plans for the future that I still value. 

If you get rid of the worst 20% of the coughing and the periodic outbursts, which have only been an issue recently, everything is wonderful and it's not my first instinct to throw it away. I'm starting to concede that she is not eager to change it and that this may not be something I can do anything to solve, though.

It's of interest that during the argument, she complained that her feelings that I'm unloving and controlling get worse during the winter. I've tried to explain to her repeatedly since this started that the outbursts really only are an issue during the winter, a fact which she denies. She doesn't seem to see a connection there. I've stressed to her that I'm exactly the same person and that if she disagrees, she needs to describe what she believes changes about me in the winter that causes her to feel this way.

All she can come up with is that I apparently "shoot her dirty looks".


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> @a_mister To use a famous quotation: "Been there, done that, got the t-shirt."
> 
> I do feel your pain.


Care to elaborate at all? I could use any insight.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Seeing as she doesn’t seem keen to face her health issues maybe you need to start treating her behavior patterns differently.
For instance if you explain that you may have to rent an apartment for work because of her constant interruptions then spending money will be drastically reduced in future.She seems to put a lot of importance on spending so this may hit home.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

a_mister said:


> Care to elaborate at all? I could use any insight.


There are some resources that might be of help to you:-
https://psychcentral.com/lib/self-care-tips-for-those-married-to-someone-with-asperger-syndrome/
http://aspiewriter.com/2012/08/i-married-aspie-husbands-perspective-on.html
Asperger Syndrome
https://www.timgoldstein.com/blog/relationship

It's tough but it can be done.


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## Violet28 (Oct 4, 2018)

Could you rent an office space?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Violet28 said:


> Could you rent an office space?


She'd keep phoning him. My wife would phone me up a lot at the one company I worked at. Which did cause problems.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not sure if this will do anything, but IIWY I would get one of those huge wall calendars for the whole year on one page, hang it up, and make a tick mark for every one of her illnesses, show her WHEN she gets sick. Assuming you're not just leaving. Some people simply won't change until they have to.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

a_mister said:


> I haven't been to sessions with her, her initial grief counselor seemed to be horrified by the idea, although I had a few conversations with the (late) good one. I'm confident she isn't disclosing it, because she tends to claim to "forget" that anything happened, possibly out of embarrassment.
> 
> A month or two ago she was repeatedly pestering me about the chores we needed to do, as we walked around shopping together, etc. I started signalling to her that we needed to change the subject, spelling out that I know and won't forget, and that she's already said, etc. When we came home I brought in the groceries and she started going over the list again, and I said something like "Look, I'm going to get that this afternoon, we've discussed it in detail and it's going to be OK. I need to go to the bathroom first then I'll go get the tools."
> 
> ...


Maybe you should record some of these episodes (VAR/Phone) so that later when she denies it happening, you can play it back to "remind" her. She knows -- she just doesn't want to admit it.

EDT: Just got caught up and saw that you DID record one of her episodes. I think you should continue to do this -- it may even help the therapist work with her if you give them the recordings...


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Rather than getting an armchair diagnosis by half the members here (which is ludicrous) or doing a Google search to figure out what's wrong with her, why don't you tell her that she's got *two choices* - she gets a COMPLETE medical workup or you two discuss the very real possibility of separating. Her choice.

Whining and yelling ISN'T working for you. You're just coming off looking weak and whiny and spineless.

Yeah, I said it. You continually put up with her bull**** and *whine *about it over and over and over, but you do* NOTHING* to take *control *of the situation. Are you so afraid of her that you can't close the damned bathroom door and lock it while you're taking a dump????? Are you so damned afraid of her that you refuse to close your office door and LOCK it while you're on a conference call???? Is it really THAT much of a burden to close and lock either of those doors? It's like you purposely set out to bring on the 'crazy' and then whine and cry about how you can't take it.

Man up and take control of the situation. Whining for the last 2 years hasn't worked for you. Time to actually DO something.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Man up and take control of the situation. Whining for the last 2 years hasn't worked for you. Time to actually DO something.


Another read is that I've been patiently supportive of someone who has struggled with a terrible tragedy that most people do not experience, and that your attempt at an edgy response is just clueless and arrogant. No, it would not have occurred to me that I need to lock the bathroom door because she's never behaved that way before, and who would? No, it is not possible to separately lock the office without hanging a door where none presently exists. Locking my door solves the day's problem, but not the larger problem, which finds different ways of manifesting like a Whac-A-Mole.

Each winter, when these problems arise, I've been more than happy to "lock doors" and take control of the individual problems. Adult life is full of trivial conflicts and misunderstandings that grate, are handled, and then we get over it and move on. Seasonal problems, as another poster noted, can appear to be "over" and even be forgotten until the seasons cycle again. It's only this year that we're starting on the third go-round and it's now not only become apparent that it isn't just an isolated "rough holiday season" or a "bad week at work" but a cyclical problem that is getting weirder and isn't going to change through normal boundary-setting.

That's why I posted, not to "whine", but because I now see there is a larger issue, and that advice is needed on what else can be done, from people who have been there. Other posters seem to have no difficulty recognizing that and offering relevant and useful contributions. If anything, her chief grievance at this point is seemingly that she very much resents that too many doors get locked.



turnera said:


> Not sure if this will do anything, but IIWY I would get one of those huge wall calendars for the whole year on one page, hang it up, and make a tick mark for every one of her illnesses, show her WHEN she gets sick. Assuming you're not just leaving. Some people simply won't change until they have to.





Andy1001 said:


> For instance if you explain that you may have to rent an apartment for work because of her constant interruptions then spending money will be drastically reduced in future.She seems to put a lot of importance on spending so this may hit home.


I think these are both valuable observations. I did sit her down last winter and go over how often she was getting upset, which was a key part of getting her to find a counselor again. However, my sense at this point is that during these episodes, she's so overwhelmed inside that she can't help herself, and that rubbing it in her face that she's having tantrums isn't adding anything. She knows she's having them, even if she denies specific incidents, but has framed them as "talking it out" and "her way of communicating", rather than a bout of suffering that impacts us both.

I do think this is why she gradually boils over over a period of a day or three. She simply _is in a state of upset_ with no explanation, so closing the door on a problem (ex. "this potentially scary medical symptom is actually nothing") doesn't actually help, it just puts her on watch for another explanation for the feeling.

As I said, the line is drawn: we're going to counseling, with an eye toward handling her outbursts and her anxieties. I'm going to show her some options after work today, counselors I have researched myself. If it turns out to be a false commitment, it's unfortunately going to be endgame.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Sorry if I missed it - has she been diagnosed with any mental health (or other) issues by a doctor? If yes, is she taking medication or treatment? 

I think its clear that you want to be supportive, which is admirable, but I am struck reading your posts that "you can't logic someone out of crazy". Not that she's "crazy", but behavior that is clearly anxiety-driven and without logic will not be extinguished by presenting logical facts to her. She's spinning on a hamster wheel and she needs professional intervention to get off of it. 

I say this as someone who suffers from anxiety disorder who has intrusive, repetitive thoughts similar to your wife. When I am in a bad place mentally (which consequently is also usually winter for me) I know that my thoughts and behaviors are illogical yet feel powerless to stop them. I know that my thoughts and fears are amplified and unfounded, yet they continue relentlessly. It honestly makes me feel untethered from reality... hard to describe if you've never experienced it, I guess. Someone pointing out to me the lack of real world evidence to support my thoughts doesn't help them to go away. 

In my case, I tend to withdraw when this is going on rather than seek comfort from someone else (that is just my personality) - and I am also on medication and regularly receiving treatment, which is a lifesaver. The treatment absolutely makes my condition manageable. The treatment allows me to step back from my mental state and assess it from 50,000 ft... it gives me my perspective back. It doesn't completely eliminate the underlying issues and the thoughts remain at times, but I am able to hold my breath and let them pass over me like a wave, rather than become consumed by them. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

kag123 said:


> Sorry if I missed it - has she been diagnosed with any mental health (or other) issues by a doctor? If yes, is she taking medication or treatment?


She was diagnosed with PTSD, but no medical intervention. She had a good therapist who specialized in grief and trauma for the first year or so, but he was elderly and, unfortunately, passed away when she was thinking about going back.

This year she's gone back, to a counselor who a friend recommended to her. There's seemingly some emphasis on talking about nutrition, which she likes because she enjoys nutrition, but it doesn't sound like there's any formal therapy to me.



> I think its clear that you want to be supportive, which is admirable, but I am struck reading your posts that "you can't logic someone out of crazy". Not that she's "crazy", but behavior that is clearly anxiety-driven and without logic will not be extinguished by presenting logical facts to her. She's spinning on a hamster wheel and she needs professional intervention to get off of it.


That's exactly what I was trying to say above about her clearly being overwhelmed. Things that made sense to try a year or two ago before I recognized the pattern wouldn't make sense today. I do realize that she can't be argued into wellness. 

At the same time, it's also not productive to enable her by letting things go unchecked or just dismissing the fact that she's struggling. If we talk at the right time, she does get to a place where she locks up and is receptive to doing something because she realizes the rationalizations don't sound right. That's where we got to yesterday. Hopefully it sticks.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Wow, this situation sounds extremely trying for you and for her. From the posts of yours that I've read, it sound like she needs some professional help, pronto. I think you could also benefit from some help as well on how to cope with this.

Your wife sounds controlling and narcissistic. She likes things to go her way, and doesn't seem to take anyone's feelings/life/schedule/thoughts into account at any time. It amazes me that people can do/say whatever they please, and then promptly forget about it, and therefore deny it. It's almost like they aren't in control of themselves enough to have clarity of action.

Locking your office door would solve nothing; she could just keep knocking. Definitely start locking your bathroom door though!


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

Well, that was exciting.

We had a pleasant exchange on Messenger then I mentioned that I'd be sending a couple of links to therapists that we could look at together tonight. She made another excuse about how we'd have to figure out insurance and it'd hard to get in with anyone good.

Then she came downstairs to ask what I was hoping to get out of therapy. I said that I was hoping we could deal with her worrying and also find a better way to communicate when she's feeling unhappy with me.

"No, no, it's not all about me."

"That's just my part of it."

"Anxiety is part of who I am and I'm not going to change who I am."

Finally I had to explain to her that we weren't going to be able to move forward on some of our plans until we addressed this, specifically her anger when she's anxious, and that the goal of therapy is to address this and move forward.

Apparently, that means I was lying about our plans and am, as a half hour of recorded screaming indicates, "a ****ing *******", "an abuser", "using her", "just like her ex-husband", and that she never wants to see my face again so she can find someone who "knows how to love", because she's "humiliated" and I've let her know "how much I really hate her".

I think my suspicion that therapy was never going to happen is right on target. So... Uh... Hilton or Marriott?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Wow. Unhinged much? Kudos to you for keeping composure, not sure I could do the same. Good for you for putting out there what you want accomplished. Anxiety is part of who she is?? Really?? Does she really enjoy feeling this way? I guess she just really doesn't want to face that she has a problem. Its way easier to vilify you.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Remind me-does she have family other than you? Who would back you up? Your wife is really, really ill. Like, as in, maybe time for inpatient treatment ill.

She is not your garden variety nagging wife. There is some serious mental illness going on. Time for some serious action.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

a_mister said:


> Well, that was exciting.
> 
> We had a pleasant exchange on Messenger then I mentioned that I'd be sending a couple of links to therapists that we could look at together tonight. She made another excuse about how we'd have to figure out insurance and it'd hard to get in with anyone good.
> 
> ...


Well, you could give her the option of which one she has?

Or if it's for you, I'd suggest the Marriott as I have found them to have a fairly good range of craft beers at a reasonable price.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

After she simmered down for a long while, we had a long talk which I kicked off by asking her if she meant the things she said when she was angry. Mostly civil, but a lot of bizarre finger-pointing. 

For example, it's my fault she doesn't talk to her friends because she has no privacy. The two friends she mentioned, one dumped her and she dumped the other because they were having catty problems.

At some point, I also mentioned the yelling and she said, I kid you not, "When do I ever yell?"

Huh. OK.

Never lost my composure, but stayed firm on the point that there's no negotiating on the yelling and anger. Finally, toward the end, she became irate again and I told her I'd be back through with some boxes tomorrow. Might bring a witness. I picked the Hilton. We have no kids, we both have good jobs. Guess I already have a vacation for one lined up next week.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

lucy999 said:


> Remind me-does she have family other than you? Who would back you up? Your wife is really, really ill. Like, as in, maybe time for inpatient treatment ill.
> 
> She is not your garden variety nagging wife. There is some serious mental illness going on. Time for some serious action.


I missed this.

I agree. Usually, the outbursts have some context that makes them at least relatable, even if she's far too upset. This was just too much. I wasn't even mad, just blown away.

She's close to her sister.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

a_mister said:


> I missed this.
> 
> I agree. Usually, the outbursts have some context that makes them at least relatable, even if she's far too upset. This was just too much. I wasn't even mad, just blown away.
> 
> She's close to her sister.


It's time to bring her sister into this and clue her in to how much your wife has spiraled and is clearly out of control and some serious intervention is necessary. Play her the recordings if she's dubious. 

I realize this will make your wife really angry
But she's already angry so there's that.

It would be horrific if there's a real medical or mental health reason for her actions (sure sounds like it) while you take steps to possibly end your marriage, or at least cause some major resentment when there doesn't have to be.

Act swiftly. It's urgent. Something is not right.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

lucy999 said:


> It's time to bring her sister into this and clue her in to how much your wife has spiraled and is clearly out of control and some serious intervention is necessary. Play her the recordings if she's dubious....Act swiftly. It's urgent. Something is not right.


I get it, and I'm paying attention. Some of the stuff that was said during our conversation before I left was more troubling than I'd expected. For instance, she's decided that asking her to get her cough treated means I want to "put her on medications that will ruin her health".

I know something's wrong here and I'll be paying attention tomorrow, but I think I'm also on a pretty clear course that I have to exit the home if she continues to feel that asking to go to therapy is an attempt to "control" or "change" her. Her remarks yesterday about feeling "too controlled" have a new context, that she seems to strongly believe there should be no need to regulate herself emotionally at all.

That doesn't mean exiting the marriage or walking out on her need for help, but this is far too much to be sleeping and working there. We'll see what happens tomorrow.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Rather than getting an armchair diagnosis by half the members here (which is ludicrous) or doing a Google search to figure out what's wrong with her, why don't you tell her that she's got *two choices* - she gets a COMPLETE medical workup or you two discuss the very real possibility of separating. Her choice.
> 
> Whining and yelling ISN'T working for you. You're just coming off looking weak and whiny and spineless.
> 
> ...


Yeah. Why not tell someone to ignore suggestions from people who have been through similar situations who are offering practical suggestions and potentially helpful resources? 

Much better to tell some *man* to "man up" right? 

Just DO something! Do what? Just Man up!

Yeah Whatever. 

If someone is dealing with someone who has certain challenges (ASD, etc., etc.) advice to "man up" can be counterproductive and even potentially dangerous.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

a_mister. - I just want to say that you are handling this remarkably well. It sounds just awful. I want to add words of compassion for your situation. It sounds awful! Be well. Well as well as you can.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@a_mister I had to smile to myself. Like you, I work from home. 

I have an exceptionally busy schedule today (I am literally doing four tasks at once) and my wife said: "Do you fancy going out for a walk this afternoon?"


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Pretty typical in that most people don't want to change unless forced to. Moving out will give her a reason to address her own issues. Staying there only gives her a reason to stay. 

And if you leave and she gets worse, SOMEbody - family or state - will force her to get help. So leaving is actually helping her, because she's clearly not happy OR healthy.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

turnera said:


> Pretty typical in that most people don't want to change unless forced to. Moving out will give her a reason to address her own issues. Staying there only gives her a reason to stay.
> 
> And if you leave and she gets worse, SOMEbody - family or state - will force her to get help. So leaving is actually helping her, because she's clearly not happy OR healthy.


Maybe. If she were a "normal" person. But a normal person would not be acting in the way she is acting.

As she is perhaps not a "normal" person, leaving her might not have the expected result.

It's not easy to know what to do under these circumstances.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> Maybe. If she were a "normal" person. But a normal person would not be acting in the way she is acting.


The bottom line, for me, is that when I asked her to get help for her anger and anxiety and explained that we couldn't forward with our plans until we figured this out, she screamed so hard that she turned purple, then continued ranting at me intermittently for thirty minutes, claiming that I don't love her because doing things for her is conditional on her changing.

The second wave of screaming came when I laid it out again, that it was a hard boundary. I am not sure if I used the word "contingent" or not, but she was sure that I had and it is apparently a horrible slur. :|

Some things she said make me suspect she knows what's going on and is trying to talk herself into me being a bad guy so she doesn't have to question her own behavior. There's no staying in the house with that, nor, in my opinion, any sense in returning so we can do it again unless she's willing to accept that it's a problem and accept professional help to work on it together. 

For all the trivial incidents at work that she worries about losing her job over, I could actually lose my job spending too much time dealing with this kind of drama.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

a_mister said:


> The bottom line, for me, is that when I asked her to get help for her anger and anxiety and explained that we couldn't forward with our plans until we figured this out, she screamed so hard that she turned purple, then continued ranting at me intermittently for thirty minutes, claiming that I don't love her because doing things for her is conditional on her changing.
> 
> The second wave of screaming came when I laid it out again, that it was a hard boundary. I am not sure if I used the word "contingent" or not, but she was sure that I had and it is apparently a horrible slur. :|
> 
> ...


Of *course* you are the bad guy. 

It's half way down on page 34 in the handbook: _How To Be Married To An Interesting Spouse_.

Dang. Did your copy get lost in the post?


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

Missed a call from her while I was in a meeting. Had a Facebook message after.

"Do you want to try to work on things?"

"If you feel that behaving this way is acceptable and don't want to get help, no."

"You don't love me and want to be with me?"

"Of course I do, but that's a separate issue from whether or not I'll tolerate this behavior. You screamed so hard last night you turned purple and I was unable to sleep in my own bed. Caring about you is not a blank check to behave however you feel, we all have to regulate our emotions. I won't do screaming matches and don't have room for this kind of drama in my life. This is, by far, the most ridiculous you've ever acted. I'm not going to carry this all by myself. You need to get help."

"I don't feel loved and accepted."

:|

"I have to focus on work. We'll talk after 5:00 when I come by with boxes."


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

That was a GREAT response, nicely done!!


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

I got baited into one more reply.

She said something about how she feels insecure now because I have one foot out the door. Seriously?

I replied that it was an utter crock of ****. I'm aware that she was forced out of the house in her previous marriage, her ex-husband has anger problems of his own, and she's told me a hundred times how horrible it was and that she felt she had no choice. Then she does the exact same thing, I respond in the exact same obvious and predictable way, and I'm the villain? "Your thinking on this has become absolutely ridiculous. See you at 5:00."

Now I get new messages every ten or fifteen minutes trying to get my attention.

"No love. No missing me. I guess it is over."

"If this is all about me having to change, I can't go on."

"You are expecting too much. I give up."

Cripes. Not reinforcing this "poor me" floor show any further.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I would recommend just repeating this line over and over again, if you reply at all:

"I have to focus on work. We'll talk after 5:00 when I come by with boxes." 


Really no reply would be best, but then she will continue every 5 minutes...so just repeat that line and at some point she may say: "You mean you won't talk about this until 5pm?" "Yep" 

LOL

You're handling this as well as possible--it's not easy.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

a_mister said:


> I'd love to stay together if these problem behaviors resolved. We had eight incredible years and two increasingly stressful, clingy ones.
> 
> I'm just not seeing the investment on her part. If anything, there are other issues I haven't gone into, including her recent need to try to spend money she does not have. I have started to feel like I just have a completely self-absorbed and oblivious wife walking around freely acting on her stream of consciousness - "I want a new mattress", "I need to cough", "I'll tell my husband what's in the dryer, down to which specific socks, even though he's obviously in a meeting" - with no regard whatsoever for me. It's baffling and bizarre to have a direct conversation about it, have it acknowledged, and then the behaviors just go on.
> 
> The cough has really pushed me over the edge. We had to travel for the holidays and it was three hours of coughing on the way up, coughing while shopping, coughing while dining, three hours of coughing on the way back, and then at the end of the train trip, she actually looked at me and said "...someone was snoring...". We discussed the cough several times while we were away, she is not unaware that she is coughing very hard and very loudly, and that she would not realize she's been driving me insane on the train ride home was stunning.


She needs to be checked for reflux. I’m not sure he w it’s phrased but it s a form of reflux without heartburn. The only obvious symptom is coughing. My wife’s allergy doctor figured it out. Then she went to an internal medicine doctor I believe. If it is reflux there is treatment and a special diet that works.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

a_mister said:


> Another read is that I've been patiently supportive of someone who has struggled with a terrible tragedy that most people do not experience, and that your attempt at an edgy response is just clueless and arrogant. No, it would not have occurred to me that I need to lock the bathroom door because she's never behaved that way before, and who would? No, it is not possible to separately lock the office without hanging a door where none presently exists. Locking my door solves the day's problem, but not the larger problem, which finds different ways of manifesting like a Whac-A-Mole.


Well even another read it that this is complete and utter horse crap. I am not trying to be harsh or disrespectful. 

SSGI, is trying to help, and she is right. 

Understand this... My mentally ill, drug addict, very sickly Ex W, was just too sick to work. Could not keep the house, and bla bla bal... 

Yeah, until I divorced her... Then, golly gee, she got sober, she somehow was able to find a job, and supports her self, and wow, even her depression and other mental issue are better than they were....

How do you think she managed to get better, well let me tell... She had no choice because I was not there to enable her any more. 

Look, I get that you love your wife. We all get that. 

However, you are miserable, and don't think that her behavior does not have the capacity to make you lose your mind as well. Been there done that. 

You know the frog in boiling water analogy right? 

I am not saying that you HAVE to leave her, but until you get some balls, and set some boundaries, things will not get better. 

Like someone said above. 1) Complete medical workup, stem to stern. Mental and physical. 2) Marriage counseling and therapy (maybe some for you as well) 3) Compliance with any and all meds that the docs think she should be on.... 

Or you walk. 

I can tell you one thing, no matter how much you love someone, if they are making you miserable, and they will not get the proper help, you really cannot help them. 

So you either agree to be miserable or put your foot down, with an extra helping of balls, and get things going, if that fails leave.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I'm going to swing to left field here, so bear with me...

a_Mister, Google "coccidioidomycosis". Valley fever. 

Do you and your wife live in the southwest or California? That is where it is contracted most often. 

I had valley fever twice in my life. The last time I had it, about five years ago, I ended up in the hospital for a week. Essentially it is a fungus that gets in your lungs and releases toxins into your bloodstream. When I first got valley fever, back in my early twenties, I too had a year-long cough that wouldn't go away. I was told by my allergy specialist doctor that it was hay fever. Problem was, the dip**** overlooked the fact that my body temperature was running a steady 99.5 to 100 degrees. A low grade fever but a fever nonetheless. This fever was not strong enough to impact my daily life, but it slowly wore me down until I was flat on my back. I finally went to an ENT doctor and she took one look at me and listened to my lungs and made a diagnosis in less than five minutes. 

"You have mushrooms growing inside your lungs." she said in the most deadpan way. So then came a series of daily treatments to get the problem under control. 

The second time it reappeared, it came onto me fast and before I knew it I had pneumonia and ended up in the hospital. Your wife needs to be checked by an ENT doctor for this possibility. If it is VF, and you let it go too long, the spores spread throughout the bloodstream and eventually into the brain resulting in meningitis or brain damage (disseminated coccidioidomycosis). I wonder if maybe this is what is happening to your wife? Does she have a rash on her arms and legs that won't go away? Joint pain? Those are other symptoms to look for. 

Before you divorce your wife, you may also want to get your house inspected for black mold. Poisonous molds can cause constant coughing and high blood toxicity which can result in psychological problems. 

Just some alternative thoughts. Good luck.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

OMG you poor thing. I'M exhausted by her and I'm a woman who enjoys a good "endless loop" conversation from time to time.

I think you are on the best track possible with the insistence on therapy. Besides, that would be you spending your money on her! 

I have no real advice but wanted to say she does sound OCD and obsessive about things, like there is some real mental illness going on. But if she won't address it that's like an alcoholic expecting you to just tolerate their drinking because it's an illness. Or a Diabetic eating desert for breakfast...

*I am really surprised to learn that she works. * I thought part of the problem was that she was bored and lonely because she is home all day with nothing to do but laundry and make sandwiches while you are purposefully busy working and ignoring her. 




a_mister said:


> Could very well be. I know it's different with women and some signs would make sense, others don't fit her at all. She can definitely be a rule-follower, though, and naive about dishonest people, which causes her a lot of grief.
> 
> Either way, we had a bit of a blowout today. She's been bubbling and turbulent for the last two days, and admittedly, I was perhaps not my smiling self because I could tell what was coming. Yesterday she had a health anxiety panic that she came down from quickly once she explained what was going on and I brought it to her attention that it was probably nothing based on some details. (This wasn't a crazy/hypochondriac thing, it was something that's legitimately alarming, but the specifics I happened to know indicated it was not what she was thinking, and she dialed it down considerably, but was still upset because she knows she has to get it checked out.) All day long she was ruminating over it, though, and when we went out to dinner, she was visibly exhausted and distressed, and I asked her if she was OK a couple of times, because she looked like she was under terrible stress.
> 
> ...


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

a_mister said:


> It's of interest that during the argument, she complained that her feelings that I'm unloving and controlling get worse during the winter. I've tried to explain to her repeatedly since this started that the outbursts really only are an issue during the winter, a fact which she denies. She doesn't seem to see a connection there. I've stressed to her that I'm exactly the same person and that if she disagrees, she needs to describe what she believes changes about me in the winter that causes her to feel this way.


I was going to suggest getting her a mood light such as are used to help with Seasonal Affective Disorder, and also, since you said her outbursts are periodic, to see if they track with her menstrual cycle, but then the thread just got worse and worse, and I mostly just want to wish you luck now.

There are some pretty serious issues going on with her that definitely need therapy, but if she isn't willing to go, I don't know what to suggest. I suppose all you can do is try to promote the therapy as being to help you both communicate better, and thus to help the marriage, and not to make it sound the least bit like it's all her fault and she must change.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> Well even another read it that this is complete and utter horse crap. I am not trying to be harsh or disrespectful.
> ...
> 
> Or you walk.
> ...


 If you'd caught up on the thread before posting you'd see he is taking action.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Chaparral said:


> She needs to be checked for reflux. I’m not sure he w it’s phrased but it s a form of reflux without heartburn. The only obvious symptom is coughing. My wife’s allergy doctor figured it out. Then she went to an internal medicine doctor I believe. If it is reflux there is treatment and a special diet that works.


Some types of asthma result in constant coughing. A preventative inhaler will solve that usually.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> If you'd caught up on the thread before posting you'd see he is taking action.


I disagree and I am up on the thread. The thread I posted too lastly, to me sounded like more excuses as to why his wife is what she is and he is supportive. 

Now, he is starting to take action. No doubt, HE IS STARTING. However, you know as well as I do that the thinking, the process, is what the issue is. 

HE thinks he has been supportive, I say that he has enabled her. 

And @Rubix Cubed, PM me when you want to. We really should not go after each other, don't you think???


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Some types of asthma result in constant coughing. A preventative inhaler will solve that usually.


Or COPD might be to blame.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

So, she sent one more poor-me message lamenting that I'd apparently reached a point where I couldn't deal with her anymore and wishing me "happiness", then at 5:15 asked if I was coming over. By this point, I was thoroughly pissed, because I was signing up for a storage unit and picking up an armload of boxes, both of which turned out to be bigger nuisances than I'd expected and it was raining.

I just went straight into the garage to start going through my tools.

"I thought we were going to talk?"

"OK, but about what?"

"I guess you've made up your mind."

"I think you've made it up for me with your behavior last night."

After I'd filled up two boxes, she leaned into my office and asked if we could go to counseling while we lived separately. I didn't bother to respond.

Finally, a bit after that, she really wanted to talk. I told her that there were only two ways to look at this, which is that she either has a problem that is out of control and that I'm right to insist she needs help, or she is not out of control and means the things she said, in which case I won't be here if that's how she sees me and she doesn't need me here.

She tried to talk around that but eventually conceded that her emotions sometimes get the best of her, and apologized for what she said. She also admitted that she has never told a therapist about the depth of how distressed she gets, but claims it's because she doesn't always realize she's acting out and that she remembers some of the incidents but doesn't remember them the way I described.

At one point, she asked me to stop framing it as "screaming", because she "doesn't scream". I told her there was no chance, because that's what it is, and reminded her that she turned colors screaming so hard last night. She sees it as part of who she is but claims to be willing to talk to someone together, and, miraculously, to the therapist I mentioned before, who is familiar with her anxiety.

Then we talked about the hygiene/cleaning anxiety. She mentioned that I'm "taking over the house" with "clutter" and it stresses her out, I stopped her and asked her to name one object in the living room we were sitting in that she felt was "my clutter". She couldn't. The dining room? The bathroom? Our bedroom? "I pick up after you all the time." "Sometimes I forget my socks or have a glass I'm drinking out of. It's not that dramatic. Can you think of anything else?" Silence. "You think my office is cluttered and I disagree, but it's my office and there's no compromising over that."

"There's so books in there that attract dust and you hung up so many things on the walls and those files and all that. I don't even want to go in there now that you're packing more boxes."

(Note: I have a single small bookshelf and one filing box, and a few pieces of wall art I've picked up traveling. The walls are a little busy because it's a not a lot of space, but that's it.)

"It's my office and if you didn't want to go in there then you should have stopped going in there. Either way, you're about to get what you keep saying you want. My office will be perfectly empty and then you'll be happy and content."

"You're still leaving?"

"I think we're still on 'living separately and getting counseling', at best."

"Do you want to work on this?"

"I'm the one who wanted to go to counseling."

We also talked about the fact that all of this was never an issue until after the family tragedy. It didn't correlate to anything else. She had her entire office outfitted like a library, wall-to-wall shelves, and her own books never bothered her until she decided she was into "minimalism" after that happened. She doesn't really accept that, but doesn't disagree with the timing.

We'll make an effort. I got a few "but can you"s out of her and stressed that I'm not going to negotiate over the outbursts at all, that she went much too far this time and there's nothing else to address until that is addressed. Before I went back to the hotel to grab my bag I also explained, very clearly, that this is the first time she's cost us a bunch of money acting out, and that there's not going to be a third act if she makes the home unlivable again. I'm quietly keeping the storage unit, because I don't expect much, but we'll see.



BluesPower said:


> I disagree and I am up on the thread. The thread I posted too lastly, to me sounded like more excuses as to why his wife is what she is and he is supportive.
> 
> Now, he is starting to take action. No doubt, HE IS STARTING. However, you know as well as I do that the thinking, the process, is what the issue is.
> 
> HE thinks he has been supportive, I say that he has enabled her.


Not with you on this. I agree in full about what you (and SSGI) said about how things work, but not in it fitting the circumstances. She is reliably called out and boundaries are set, and then things settle down. The episodic problems come and go and that's that. If every conflict immediately went to "get out"/"I'm walking" with no in-between enforcement, the nation's hotels would have to set up campgrounds outside. My disagreement with SSGI is over the childish assumption that this is all about failing to lock a door, as if there's been a longstanding pattern of letting her run rampant around the house and it's as easy as crating a puppy.

We're just now at the beginning of the third winter like this and with it clear that the problem is seasonal, that solo therapy isn't getting anywhere, and that it's becoming serious again and more serious than before, I'm moving on it immediately. The nature of her outburst was that she resents the boundaries to the point of panic that she can't follow her overwhelming feelings down the rabbit hole, and _that_ is a real problem.



Chaparral said:


> She needs to be checked for reflux. I’m not sure he w it’s phrased but it s a form of reflux without heartburn. The only obvious symptom is coughing. My wife’s allergy doctor figured it out. Then she went to an internal medicine doctor I believe. If it is reflux there is treatment and a special diet that works.


You'll be amused to know that I mentioned this last night and her face scrunched up and she sat quietly for a minute.

"That's what my mom said."

"What?"

"I talked to my mom about this today and she said she takes Prilosec and it helps with coughing."

"So you see where going to the doctor about this maybe isn't as dramatic as you're imagining it to be?"

To the other post about cough-variant asthma, it certainly could be an explanation, but I don't buy it. She explains her cough based on things a doctor told her a decade or two decades ago. For the most part, she can control it in social situations if she pays attention to it and doesn't cough in her sleep, which leads me to suspect it's mostly habitual. Reflux contributing to the sensation she needs to clear her throat would make a lot of sense.

Definitely not Valley Fever, and it's not a productive cough so I wouldn't expect anything serious like COPD, either.



Hopeful Cynic said:


> I was going to suggest getting her a mood light such as are used to help with Seasonal Affective Disorder, and also, since you said her outbursts are periodic, to see if they track with her menstrual cycle, but then the thread just got worse and worse, and I mostly just want to wish you luck now.


I was paying attention to this last year when I urged her to see a therapist again in the first place. Sometimes it's every three weeks or so, but other times it's less obvious. I can be difficult to quantify what, exactly, an episode is. Sometimes she's angry, but sometimes she's just plain too worried about something at work and will replay it for a week. When it's like that, it's obvious that she's suffering a great deal worried about what people will think of a conflict, etc., but she doesn't become angry about it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

@a_mister you can marry my wife... she doesn't talk at all... :grin2:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@a_mister Oh. Yeah. "This whole house is a mess!" There was one item that was literally centimetres out of position after I'd done the polishing.

OCD, ASD, and ARGHHHHHHHHHHH!  

I'm by myself but that ARGHHHHHHHHHHH! made me feel better!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Let me ask you, to be fair to your wife: are you a slob or a hoarder? Do you help out with the housework?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> And @Rubix Cubed, PM me when you want to. We really should not go after each other, don't you think???


 Wasn't going after you in the least. I may have been a little blunt with my post, but no bad intentions. It just seemed like you responded to his response to SSGI w/o reading the rest. 
OP set hard boundaries and enforced them. I'd say that is "manning up". I also feel that this is a mental illness case and the hard love/ man the F up advice, in this case, would do more harm than good if any good at all. A bit of that if all you have is a hammer ... ethic.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Wasn't going after you in the least. It just seemed like you responded to his response to SSGI w/o reading the rest.
> OP set hard boundaries and enforced them. I'd say that is "manning up". I also feel that this is a mental illness case and the hard love/ man the F up advice, in this case, would do more harm than good if any good at all. A bit of that if all you have is a hammer ... ethic.


well, I have an anxious wife with OCD and I can tell you that - if this the case - the hard man stance doesn't work... tried that and I got the opposite result. I'm paying for it now.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Chaparral said:


> She needs to be checked for reflux. I’m not sure he w it’s phrased but it s a form of reflux without heartburn. The only obvious symptom is coughing. My wife’s allergy doctor figured it out. Then she went to an internal medicine doctor I believe. If it is reflux there is treatment and a special diet that works.


 I had this and Nexium fixed it quickly and was only needed intermittently after.
Also some medications can cause a cough. My heart med does.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> Let me ask you, to be fair to your wife: are you a slob or a hoarder? Do you help out with the housework?


I am neither a slob nor a hoarder. I'm also not a serial cleaner who rearranges his desk twice a week to wipe it down, towel-dries the sink, or puts every object in the bathroom in a cabinet every night, and that is basically what she's getting at. (I installed niche shelves for her hair stuff during the bathroom model and there is nothing on them. Ever. She takes it out and packs it all away each day.)

I don't help out with the cooking/cleaning housework much, but I take care of handywork including a lot of work that would usually involve a professional, and the bills. This is the division of labor she didn't just agree to, but insisted on, because I make considerably more than her and she "enjoys doing that".

I'm not blind to why that might be a source of friction, but as I mentioned before, we did attempt to hire her a housekeeper when she was feeling overwhelmed at work and that didn't work out because she has to have things just so, precisely when she wants it done, and spends at least twice as much time on housecleaning generally as most people would, if not three to four times. I don't know what most people do at this point, but it isn't that.

I could go on, but my point is, a lot of her distress about cleaning is something she's doing to herself because she takes it to extreme levels of perfectionism. We had the HVAC people come through last year to clean the ducts, which hadn't been touched in five years and were concerning her, and they were mystified to find that the ducts were already clean, because there is simply no significant amount of dust in the house to accumulate in them. She once started talking to a colleague's wife about the joys of cleaning, and when she got to the part where she sun-dries the sheets and spritzes them with essential oil like she thought everyone does that, the wife just had a glazed look of horror come over her face and never really talked to her after that. I'm in no position to help her to that extent and it will just cause a fight because anything I do will not be her Dystopic Mary Poppins version of cleaning.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

at least you have a good sex life... :smile2:


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> at least you have a good sex life... :smile2:


...and the house is always super clean and she's an amazing cook. It's hard to recall ever actually seeing a dirty pot or pan left in the sink from all that messy Italian cooking, I can only assume she immediately folds them up and shoves them down the garbage disposal, then has Amazon deliver new clean ones the same day.

We literally just talked about why she doesn't have to make me lunch last night. I went upstairs to make coffee a moment ago and everything is out on the counter to make brownies from scratch. I'm not trying to be unappreciative, and I realize she's trying to make up, but I see where her refusal to slow down reliably adds to the next incident. :|


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

You are now seeing that drawing a line in the sand gets results. Push her hard. I have had one client in your circumstances. He refused to get medical treatment for all the symptoms bedeviling him. Was more than happy to blame stuff on his wife's housekeeping and his imagined problems with her. I had just one recommendation: Leave him, divorce him, find someone better. He was, to be frank, abusing her with the outbursts, the refusal to even investigate a CPAP, and the increasing evidence of sleep deprivation. The night she left, he trashed a good part of the house in anger. He got into trouble at work, his mood swings due to sleep deprivation caused an outburst in very inappropriate circumstances. Just about everything his wife said to him, came to pass. He was not fired, but suspended without pay for a week. He finally hit the low point, not working, feeling sick, and being totally alone. He made an appointment with his PCP because he was feeling completely depressed (ya think?) The doctor, had already heard from the wife, and knew what he was looking at. He suggested a sleep study, and scheduled it for the next day. The results were that he was waking up nearly every half hour. He was not sleeping effectively. He was snoring badly, but by the second week, he had been prescribed a CPAP, and anti-depressants. By week three, his head cleared along with most of his symptoms. He asked his wife if she would consider coming home. Neither her PCP nor I would allow this until he agreed to therapy. He agreed, and we said that we would be ok with dating until we were convinced that the problems with him were cleared. It took a month before we were OK with them getting back together. He needed that time to imprint on his brain the necessity of looking after himself, and paying attention to every matter within his marriage.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

a_mister said:


> ...and the house is always super clean and she's an amazing cook. It's hard to recall ever actually seeing a dirty pot or pan left in the sink from all that messy Italian cooking, I can only assume she immediately folds them up and shoves them down the garbage disposal, then has Amazon deliver new clean ones the same day.
> 
> We literally just talked about why she doesn't have to make me lunch last night. I went upstairs to make coffee a moment ago and everything is out on the counter to make brownies from scratch. I'm not trying to be unappreciative, but I see where this is going to add up to the next incident. :|



yes... I don't get any delicious meals and I don't get sex... but she at least she doesn't nag me and she cleans the house in a normal way... :smile2:

Jokes apart, I'm not sure I could put up with that... but I'm putting up (not for long) with a person who is at the opposite end of the scale than your wife... she needs to see a therapist. Would that be a deal breaker for you?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Wasn't going after you in the least. I may have been a little blunt with my post, but no bad intentions. It just seemed like you responded to his response to SSGI w/o reading the rest.
> 
> OP set hard boundaries and enforced them. I'd say that is "manning up". I also feel that this is a mental illness case and the hard love/ man the F up advice, in this case, would do more harm than good if any good at all. A bit of that if all you have is a hammer ... ethic.


I totally get you. My point is that I know he is a patient man, loving, and he loves his wife, you can tell that from his posts. 

I feel, just me now, that he did not take concrete action soon enough, even though he is now. And even after his last post, goodness, it just does not seem like she is getting it. 

I have loved someone with mental illness, I took care of her, I enabled her, the whole bit. It did not work, and I don't think it ever does. And man I tried. 

The other part of this is that, there where times with her behavior and her rants, many time, where I started thinking... Am I the problem, is it something that I am doing, maybe she is not crazy.... you start doubting what your logical mind actually sees with your own eyes. And even the LONG, painstaking conversations where you take her to the actual room or whatever and prove that there is nothing like what she is talking about, it can DRIVE the sane person crazy. 

I am just saying that I have lived it... But he is taking action now, and everyone is behind him. 

He will be sad if he has to divorce, and get that. But maybe him leaving, will be enough of a catalyst to her to really understand that, she has a problem. And after that, she might fix herself. 

I hope that is what happens, I really do...


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> I totally get you. My point is that I know he is a patient man, loving, and he loves his wife, you can tell that from his posts.
> 
> I feel, just me now, that he did not take concrete action soon enough, even though he is now. And even after his last post, goodness, it just does not seem like she is getting it....He will be sad if he has to divorce, and get that. But maybe him leaving, will be enough of a catalyst to her to really understand that, she has a problem. And after that, she might fix herself.
> 
> I hope that is what happens, I really do...


Bear in mind that as long and drawn-out as some of these posts are, it's only a fraction of the story. Insisting on getting her to therapy last winter, among other things, _was_ concrete action, and given the grieving process, the winter before that didn't seem unreasonable. A lot of difficult situations had finally resolved and it was understandable that she'd finally be having some challenges with it. It's not easy to put your finger on a more serious and protracted issue with someone when it seems like it's over and doesn't resurface until the following year.

With that said, I agree with the rest of that quote. Knowing her, a good chunk of what she "doesn't get" is really just pride. Apparently she had a more frank conversation with her regular therapist this morning in which he told her the same thing, and she's open to that. She did tell me that she intends to stay out when I'm at work from now on, because she realizes she's been a pest and that I need space, and that laundry is going to be limited to weekends. I'm proud of her for coming up with that on her own. She also mentioned last night that she realizes reacting the way she is to feeling unloved isn't helping, and that it's something she needs to work on.

I'm not hurrying to unpack last night's boxes or anything. We're still taking our trip next week and we'll see if she can sustain a focus on this or if she reverts her behavior. The storage unit is paid through February 8th, and there aren't going to be any stops on the couples' counseling train.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Pride is more likely fear. We are all motivated by fear. And pride is the symptom of a person doing great things, not things to be embarrassed about.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

@a_mister, just checking in.. how are things going?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

double post


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

So, I missed the bump for an update.

Two months in, things had been alright. We took our trip together, and her behavior was fun-loving and generally perfect. Getting her away from work and home seemed to make a tremendous difference.

After that, we had an anniversary dinner that was marred by her worrying about "dust" for the first half of the meal, three weeks after the incident where I ended up leaving the house - like clockwork.

We've also had a busy travel schedule until March and she was able to join me on a work trip and had a good time, except for a small episode on the last night where she decided I "hated her" and was "shooting her dirty looks". Again, three weeks after the dinner, like clockwork. I was firm with her that this wasn't the time and that we had a long 24 hours ahead with the last dinner and flying home in the morning, and she pulled herself together and it was fine.

Then, with the calendar clear, we started talking about finding a couples' therapist again and couldn't agree on who to try. Not acrimonious, just "I don't like that one, what about this one". I've also been starting a new project at work as well as taking night classes and haven't been able to dial in on this issue for the last couple of weeks.

Last week, she started getting turbulent again. She's on another shopping kick and keeps floating extravagant purchases she is interested in, although it's all talk. I've been clear with her that she knows she doesn't have the money and can't have at mine for it, either. Then an incident at work on Wednesday - petty conflict stuff - really got her upset, and she decided she hates her job again. She talked about it all the way to the gym together, until I was very frustrated that I'd let her tag along because it's a broken record replay of previous petty conflicts and she overanalyzes them and plays "what if". I told her so over dinner and she didn't realize she'd been talking about it the whole time.

Thursday, this was her pet topic. Friday, she forgot about it. Saturday she was back on it, and we had a long and cordial conversation about anxiety and how she realizes it's excessive. She also acknowledged that while she talks to her individual therapist about these issues, she doesn't admit that she ruminates or obsesses. We talked about going to counseling together, she felt better after talking about the anxiety more generally, we hugged it out and had a nice day. Thought this wave had passed and that we'd pick up the "scheduling an appointment" conversation again.

...then Sunday. Four weeks since the mini-episode on the business trip. As soon as I woke up, she was cranky and critical, the simmering tea kettle that's about to blow. A polite suggestion for the upcoming kitchen remodel set her off foot-stamping because she doesn't _want_ that. Went to make coffee and she got grabby trying to handwash the basin for catching spills immediately even while it was still dumping hot water from the pump. (One of her pet cleaning obsessions has been that the coffee maker's basin must now be rinsed and soaked every time a cup of coffee is made, for fear of it getting "gunk" in it, so she makes herself upset because she wants coffee then is frustrated to have to clean it so much.) That, admittedly, set *me* off, then she went off.

We were supposed to go to the gym after I showered, and when I got out, she was ready and I told her she wasn't going, because she was being far too difficult to deal with and I needed a few hours doing my own thing. Absolutely blew her stack, complaining that I do "nothing" for her while simultaneously rattling off difficult things I do for her but which are somehow insufficient.

Eventually lost my own temper and told her something to the effect that if she kept acting like an ungrateful piece of ****, she was going to find out how much I do, because she'd lose all of it for good. She clammed up, I walked out and went to the gym.

The house looks like she vacuumed every surface while I was away. She'd had a nice Italian dinner in the crock pot all day. Neither of us touched it and it's in the fridge. She's at work, we haven't really spoken since I got back yesterday. We both tossed and turned separately in bed all night. I'll concede that I went ahead and snooped. She habitually leaves her computer unlocked. Nothing in her emails or web history that were troubling, other than, between various Google searches for recipes and cleaning tips, her looking for the "average length of a relationship" while I was at the gym.

I'm calm enough to talk to her again, now. At this point, I'm over the therapy idea and past caring what she thinks of my contributions. I carry my end and then some. She's always going to find a reason to be dissatisfied and avoid therapy until she accepts the need to change her thought processes. We'll have to talk after I finish up my workday, and I think I'm going to lay it out that if she really believes our relationship is this much of a burden and that my contributions somehow fall short enough to justify her tantrums toward me, we need to part ways. Otherwise, she has to accept responsibility for stopping the unacceptable behavior when she gets stressed out, because it's not my job to bounce back from these outbursts. It's her job to stop.

Makes me sad.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I like that you've finally reached the point you need to reach, BUT...what you said you're going to tell her? Way too vague. And dropping therapy? If you're really done and giving her one last chance, YOU pick the MC and tell she either goes and does what's needed or you're leaving. You've been giving her way too much leeway in all this; you don't do that with a mentally ill person. Set the rules.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

turnera said:


> I like that you've finally reached the point you need to reach, BUT...what you said you're going to tell her? Way too vague. And dropping therapy? If you're really done and giving her one last chance, YOU pick the MC and tell she either goes and does what's needed or you're leaving. You've been giving her way too much leeway in all this; you don't do that with a mentally ill person. Set the rules.


That's exactly what it is. It's only vague because I already know what I mean, because I've been living around it - and also because, to some extent, I've lost faith in her willingness to try.

Taking responsibility for it means accepting that she has a pattern of behavior that is destroying the relationship, and accepting that the goal of couples therapy is, first and foremost, to help her stop the runaway reactions, not simply to find another venue to air the issues she's overreacting to and get tips on how to deal with people - which is seemingly how she's using her individual therapist, while declining to disclose how severe her reactions actually are. 

Rationalizing the outbursts by blaming all her perceived grievances is a nonstarter. Otherwise, this is just spinning our wheels in the mud, and I'm out of patience for that.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

a_mister said:


> So,
> 
> ........ She's always going to find a reason to be dissatisfied and avoid therapy until she accepts the need to change her thought processes. We'll have to talk after I finish up my workday, and I think I'm going to lay it out that if she really believes our relationship is this much of a burden and that my contributions somehow fall short enough to justify her tantrums toward me, we need to part ways. Otherwise, she has to accept responsibility for unacceptable behavior when she gets stressed out without excuses, because it's not my job to bounce back from these outbursts. It's her job to stop.
> 
> Makes me sad.


More than sad. You know it is not about you or your contributions, it is about her serious mental illness. Again, she needs a complete physical then mental evaluation by a TEAM at a well-known facility--somewhere that specializes in OCD. She can't do this by will/effort alone. You can't fix her or take much more. Long-term specialized therapy should be sought. It is likely that a residential treatment facility would be the best choice.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Thank you for the update, I wish it was a better one. 

I feel like she needs intensive individual therapy, with a new therapist, not the one she keeps skimming the facts for. You need to be able to go and be present for this, because she is not being honest. I feel like maybe getting to the bottom of her loss and grief due to her trauma over her family loss a few years back and forcing her to face it needs to happen, in order for her to be set up to succeed moving forward. She has been in so much denial over the reality of her own behavior. Have you ever played back your voice recordings of her tirades for her, so that she can hear it for herself? I think she needs to be able to come to some reality about herself before you can have any kind of success with couples' therapy. I also really think she probably needs to be on medication, she has serious issues. 

Now all my typing is for nothing if she wont agree that she needs help. I would not blame you one bit for leaving, honestly you deserve kudos for still being there even now. You cannot compromise your own well being and mental health for someone in denial of their own damaging actions. Living in this kind of stress just is NOT healthy.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

So.

How often do you guys change your bathroom trash can bags?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

a_mister said:


> So.
> 
> How often do you guys change your bathroom trash can bags?


Once a week unless they get full sooner or something gross is in there


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

So, things have been better for the last four months. We've done some couples counseling and she's recently accepted that her individual therapist isn't all he's cracked up to be, largely getting there on her own, though she hasn't found a new one yet. I won't rattle off all the fine points of the time that has passed, but other than a couple of disproportionate upsets about job stress, she's been loving and fun and we've been glad to be together. At some point, she acknowledged, unprompted, that her attempts at overspending have an underlying self-esteem issue and she knows she's doing it.

Two weeks ago, however, there was another outburst, before bed. Started with her suddenly growling at me that I "don't even love" and was trying to get out of paying for things on my way to wash up before bed. Came out of nowhere.

The context for the crack about not paying for things was that we're leaving for a long trip in a few weeks and I didn't put money into the joint pot for groceries because we won't be buying any. Nonsensical and shouldn't have been an issue, we always handle it that way, but she had acted like she didn't understand why.

We had a fight that evening. I was angry with her, too, for starting it before bed, then I sat her down after work the next day and explained that we won't be going over that again, that we both need to be careful with our money and that she's going to have to just accept "no" for an answer. She apologized, but was edgy and irritable for the next week or so, and injected a couple of offhand comments about feeling overwhelmed by things.

This morning, she boiled over again. When I woke up, she was already anxious and announced that she was upset because she felt that an acquaintance - who neither of us like nor care about and have only incidentally socialized with since the holidays - was "humiliating her" because a mutual friend posted a picture of her new, large house on Facebook and we had not been invited over, after her husband had intimated that he'd like to do so.

I humored her for a bit, then pointed out that there's no earthly reason to pay this person any mind. Yes, she's toxic, but we don't even like her, and frankly, I wouldn't have wanted to visit them anyway. It's way off the charts to take her obnoxiousness about her new house personally.

That wasn't the fight, but she was worked up about nothing and I could tell something was probably coming.

Here's the fight:

Yesterday, I went to the eye doctor and got daily disposable contacts, and she seemed unusually concerned with the extra trash from changing them daily. I didn't think much of it.

So after all that with her "friend", I went to take my shower, put my new lenses in, and threw the packaging in the empty trash can by the toilet. I generate very little trash since most of what I use goes in the recycling, but that went into the can. She became upset because she'd just changed the bag - which also had almost nothing in it - and only today, after years, has it become clear to me that she changes the bag every day no matter how little is in the trash, and then makes a point of not using the trash can. She was angry because it was "disrespectful" and she has to "clean up after me" because I put my trash in the trash can.

:scratchhead:

This is a new one. Seeing the other thread about OCPD prompted me to look it up, and I'm surprised at how well the description of the diagnosis fits, including the anal tendencies allowing her to succeed in the workplace but to have strained home relationships.

She became more and more upset about how overwhelming it is to "clean up after me" (apparently, she also washes the coffee maker every time I use it, without telling me - I had assumed she cleans it daily, at most, like a reasonable person) and explained that she is unable to do her own work in her office knowing that there are objects in the trash can two rooms away, so she can't just leave it there and needs me to not use the trash can after she's cleaned it. 

There was crying. I sat her down and let her calm down, then explained to her that if she is feeling overwhelmed, she must hire a housekeeper and stop handling the cleaning herself, because this is the division of labor she insisted on and I can't help her meet her unreasonable cleaning standards, nor can I take anything else on. In fact, I was already late for starting my own work because of her outburst.

She insisted that she cannot tolerate allowing the house to remain soiled while she waits for a housekeeper to come once a week and that the housekeeper won't do good enough of a job. (Obviously.) The word "f***ing nutty" just sort of slipped out in my reaction, unfortunately, and I told her this has to be addressed or we have to live separately.

This sucks, but unfortunately I just don't see any other way at this point. She's become severely inflexible and considers everybody else the problem. Sex has also really fallen off the last couple of weeks as she's tensed up, which is new.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@a_mister I was thinking about you this morning.

Your wife still reminds me of mine, though your wife's OCD is way worse than my wife's.

Walking on eggshells all the time sucks. I know.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Trash from popping in new contacts? That is off the chart dude. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

a_mister said:


> and explained that she is unable to do her own work in her office knowing that there are objects in the trash can two rooms away, so she can't just leave it there and needs me to not use the trash can after she's cleaned it.
> 
> There was crying. I sat her down and let her calm down, then explained to her that if she is feeling overwhelmed, she must hire a housekeeper and stop handling the cleaning herself, because this is the division of labor she insisted on and I can't help her meet her unreasonable cleaning standards, nor can I take anything else on.


Maybe try explaining that a trash can is for TRASH???? It's not a prop in the house, like a display toilet in the furniture store. It's meant to be used for trash. If you always clean it out immediately, then it's not actually a trash can anymore, it's a static prop you are keeping clean for public display. I think that's the part she doesn't quite understand.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

I am so awed by your ability to handle this so well. At one point in these threads I feared for you losing your job due to all the interruptions. 
However, it’s time to face reality. Your wife is not the wife you once knew. She has been taken over by OCD, probably triggered by the tragic incident several years ago. Stress makes it worse.. Recovery will be slow and protracted, with many setbacks. Sorry. Speaking from experience here. 
From a global view, this is definitely escalating and could easily go the other way, especially in the fall/winter, resulting in a complete breakdown and loss of control on her part that results in a hoarding situation. Marriage counselling is really helpful if you have someone who is a specialist in dealing with obsessive disorders. 
You need support too, you are only human. Please seek IC, again with a specialty focus. This is a monstrous issue that should not be handled alone. 
Please keep us posted. Honestly wishing the best for you and your wife.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

It is actually getting worse rather than better.

Would hospitalisation be an option?


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

MattMatt said:


> It is actually getting worse rather than better.
> 
> Would hospitalisation be an option?


Depending on where he lives. Here it’s called Form 1: an involuntary, mandatory 72 hour hospitalization for Psych assessments. Usually only if the patient is a threat to themselves or others. An Emerg visit could be warranted if she gets so out of control like when she turned colours. But if police get involved the outcome may not be good as not all cops are trained. It’s a risk.
Now that he is becoming fully aware of the magnitude of the problem, it’s time to bring in the professionals. This cannot be handled by laypeople. Specialists in OCD, trauma, PTSD and a possible ADHD and/Aspergers assessment.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

Theseus said:


> Maybe try explaining that a trash can is for TRASH???? It's not a prop in the house, like a display toilet in the furniture store. It's meant to be used for trash.


Oh, believe me, I did.

We had a new talk this morning and she got some things out. She's conceded that she needs to learn to delegate properly - to start small with things that she already accepts don't need to be done immediately - and also has a referral for a new individual therapist. She won't quite let go of the idea that everything needs to be in order at all times - I teased her quite a bit about not letting her wash the coffee maker this morning when I caught her bringing a sole dirty q-tip down from the bathroom to throw in the kitchen trash and she was able to laugh at herself - but she does realize that this is intense and doesn't make sense, and that the depth of her worries is a problem.

She's also adamant that she doesn't want to destroy the relationship and wants things to work, and that's she really upset that this is happening and wants to figure it out. She made a nice cheese plate as an apology while I was getting washed up for the day - and had managed to leave everything in the trash can in the bathroom until I was done showering so we could deal with it once. Today does feel like a significant step, we'll see.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

a_mister said:


> Oh, believe me, I did.
> 
> We had a new talk this morning and she got some things out. She's conceded that she needs to learn to delegate properly - to start small with things that she already accepts don't need to be done immediately - and also has a referral for a new individual therapist. She won't quite let go of the idea that everything needs to be in order at all times - I teased her quite a bit about not letting her wash the coffee maker this morning when I caught her bringing a sole dirty q-tip down from the bathroom to throw in the kitchen trash and she was able to laugh at herself - but she does realize that this is intense and doesn't make sense, and that the depth of her worries is a problem.
> 
> She's also adamant that she doesn't want to destroy the relationship and wants things to work, and that's she really upset that this is happening and wants to figure it out. She made a nice cheese plate as an apology while I was getting washed up for the day - and had managed to leave everything in the trash can in the bathroom until I was done showering so we could deal with it once. Today does feel like a significant step, we'll see.


I think her self awareness is such a huge advantage. This illness does tend to wax and wane based on stress. Getting IC at this point would help her develop alternate thinking pathways so she doesn’t go down the rabbit hole. And since you said it gets worse in the winter, now is a great time to get those skills. I still think IC for yourself would be so helpful, so that you can also have some tools in your kit if this comes up again.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Today was a big step for her-that is great. Don't let off on the gas. Full steam ahead with professionals involved.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

She can talk a good game all she wants. The bare bones truth is that she is seriously ill and needs serious help. Her not having a psychiatrist is not an option. She can’t fix this by herself and you don’t deserve to be subjected to abuse because she refuses real help and talks her way out of things every time. You fall for this every single time. Surely by now you should realize that this is just talk and nothing more. She will never be well without help and meds. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

3Xnocharm said:


> Oh and the cough.. is she on any meds? There are some meds that can cause a cough like you describe.


Yes, I have seen this being caused by medications. And by eating acidic foods and drinks. Tart apples, orange juice, etc. 

Asthma can be the culprit, also. Cough-variant asthma is sometimes called chronic cough to describe a cough that has lasted longer than six to eight weeks. 
THRD used to get into coughing fits after running for miles in the heat. (Dry, irritated throat, plus pollen allergies).

On meds that cause coughing, here is a good list of them.

Lisinopril- an Ace Inhibtor, high BP med.
Fluticasone- nasal spray
Simvastin- a statin drug
Carvedilol- a Beta blocker
Actonel- for osteoporosis
................................................


Accupril
Accuretic 10/12.5
Accuretic 20/12.5
ACE inhibitors
Acenorm
Aceon
Alphapril
Altace
Amprace
Apo-Enalapril
Asig
Auspril
Benazepril
Benazepril Hydrochloride
Captohexal
Captopril (Capoten)
Coversyl
Coversyl Plus
Enahexal
Enaladil
Enalapril
Enalapril (Vasotec)
Enzace
Fibsol
Fosinopril
Giloten
Gopten
Lexxel
Liprace
Lisinopril
Lisinopril (Zestril, Prinivil)
Lisodur
Lotensin
Mavik
Moexipril
Monoplus
Monopril
Odrik
Prinivil
Prinvil
Quinapril
Ramace
Renitec
Renitec Plus
Tarka
Trandolapril
Tritace
Univasc
Vasotec
Zestril 


King Brian-


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Methinks the lady needs a hobby.

Make sure it is not an expensive one!

Maybe she could make crafts and sell them at craft shows.

*Intricate, delicate, time consuming crafts*. 

Something to take up her time. 
She needs to be engaged, it might as well be something [more] useful.

Go to craft shows to give her ideas on what she can create on her own.


King Brian-


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## stefanjames (Jul 15, 2019)

Today was a big step for her-that is great. Don't let off on the gas. Full steam ahead with professionals involved.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

I'll spare you most of the details again, but I'm moving out.

We're still working on it. I love her. She loves me. I finally had to tell her point-blank that it simply isn't working with us living together in this situation, that her anxiety is like a thunderstorm and that I have got to have some physical space away from her, and she just slumped her shoulders and said "OK". She knows it's been too much, and it's taking a toll on her, too.

We went on vacation a couple of months ago. Three days before we left we had a disaster that knocked about 30% of the square footage of the house out of commission. We're insured for it but it will take a while. Overall we had a good time on vacation and fond memories. We got home and once we were back in the house, it got stressful again. We're in too close of quarters and there's too much going on. She quit her bogus therapist but won't push forward on the new one she was excited about. Things escalated the week before last, because it got bad enough that I had to take a day off work because she'd stressed me out too much to focus.

For some reason it isn't registering with her when I tell her "we'll call about it Monday", "there's nothing else we can do until Monday", "yeah, it's going to be handled", "GOT IT", "I SAID I GOT IT", "WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH BY GOING OVER ALL THIS AGAIN". She gets mad about things being out of order, I get mad about the rumination and pestering, then she feels like I hate her, then I feel bad because I don't hate her or else I wouldn't care how she felt enough to get upset about not being able to calm her down. The cycle is much more intense because of the state of the house, it has me on a short fuse, too.

The new place is a mile away, we can walk to each other and she can work out with me in the gym. She's happy about that. She cried for a bit the day after we decided and we tried to figure out how to make it work here, but agreed this is what we need to do right now. She does keep trying to take it upon herself to analyze and solve "problems" having to do with the move or finding furniture, etc., and I've made it clear I don't want her involved in any way. No cleaning, no making sure I have lunch, no handling laundry, etc. She needs to learn to back off and if she can't, have her own tantrum without me and hopefully recognize that it's a control problem she has imposed on herself and needs to take seriously rather than simply an unfair burden. She's confused by it and keeps stressing that she's just trying to make things better but accepts it.

We're both worn out and need to breath. At least our sex life has improved dramatically since we decided. This may get better, it may not. Either way, doing what I need to do.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Well I am glad to see you are taking some action. I have a feeling though that she is going to be harassing you even with you out of the house. Calling, texting, dropping by. I hope I am wrong. I have a feeling if you see how peaceful life is by yourself that you wont be going back. Keep us updated.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

3Xnocharm said:


> Well I am glad to see you are taking some action. I have a feeling though that she is going to be harassing you even with you out of the house. Calling, texting, dropping by. I hope I am wrong. I have a feeling if you see how peaceful life is by yourself that you wont be going back. Keep us updated.


I tend to agree, and that would be the end. With that said, having an actual home to tell her to go back to is a more powerful communication tool than going to my office or taking a walk.

We've discussed this in the context of it coming across as harassment, and it surprises and upsets her that she comes across that badly. In her mind, she really seems to feel that her impulse to take things on is good and has trouble seeing why it would annoy or anger someone that she's doing so much to "help". She hasn't been able to see that she's actually manufacturing an unwanted burden for herself and then ends up creating one for me, but seemed to have some moments of insight when she conceded that she's imitating things that also drive her nuts about her mother. (Her brother-in-law will no longer allow her mother to stay over after she delivered a seminar on how he failed to make pancakes "the right way".)

Apparently, the crackpot counselor was talking about this with her in the context of my boundaries being too strong, rather than her imposing unreasonable expectations on herself and worrying about things that should not be worried about. She feels misunderstood, but does finally seem to have internalized that I'm not just being obstinate or snapping at her but that it's actually damaged our relationship to the point that we can't share a home.

There's no desire on either of our parts to back down from the move-out at this point, but she has started knocking/asking before she barges through spaces cleaning and stopping when I tell her that something is fine and to knock it off. She's disappointed that she has to stop, but does stop. She'll either figure out that she needs to change it or she won't.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

a_mister said:


> I tend to agree, and that would be the end. With that said, having an actual home to tell her to go back to is a more powerful communication tool than going to my office or taking a walk.
> 
> We've discussed this in the context of it coming across as harassment, and it surprises and upsets her that she comes across that badly. In her mind, she really seems to feel that her impulse to take things on is good and has trouble seeing why it would annoy or anger someone that she's doing so much to "help". She hasn't been able to see that she's actually manufacturing an unwanted burden for herself and then ends up creating one for me, but seemed to have some moments of insight when she conceded that she's imitating things that also drive her nuts about her mother. (Her brother-in-law will no longer allow her mother to stay over after she delivered a seminar on how he failed to make pancakes "the right way".)
> 
> ...


She reminds me of my Asperger's Syndrome wife.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> She reminds me of my Asperger's Syndrome wife.


I know it. I thought of you saying that a few times during all this, including during our main fight after I'd told her I had to move out. At some point, she told me she felt that I would lose my temper with her "out of nowhere", and I had to ask her, incredulously, if she really couldn't recognize my shortening answers and rising tone before it got to that point.

My inclination in the past had been to assume that it was just anxiety, that she was so caught up in some worry that she wasn't considering me, but it increasingly seems like a real possibility that she actually doesn't catch the significance of the interaction. I'm trying to be much more specific with her to help her notice.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

a_mister said:


> This is a new one. Seeing the other thread about OCPD prompted me to look it up, and I'm surprised at how well the description of the diagnosis fits, including the anal tendencies allowing her to succeed in the workplace but to have strained home relationships.


Dude I mentioned OCD my first post. Did you miss it? 

I think it would be easier for you if you understand that all of this is about control. First she is suffering from mental illness so she doesn't have control of her thoughts, they are intrusive. So she clings to things she can control. It has nothing to do with you personally. She doesn't have the tools to fix her issues so she is desperately grasping at things she does feel she has control over. Probably partly because she doesn't want to ruin your marriage. In a sense in her diluted thinking her mind tells her if she sticks with what she is good at such as cleaning the house and if it is just clean enough then you will be happy too and that will make up for her losing it. 

So my wife has a tendency to be like this but not in the extream that yours does. Here is what I have learned. First she could never be good enough for her mom, so she always feels she has to work harder. The thing is her mom competes with her so of course she can never do enough.

She is also great at her job and works long hours.

Sounds like you are done but if not I can give you some things to try. First talk about the emotions she feels about these actions not just the actions. Ask her why she has to be perfect. Talk to her about that. Like I said her being perfect is about her wanting control over her life, probably exacerbated on by the family? events you mention that started all this. The idea being that that made her feel like she was losing control so subconsciously she started focusing on things that make her feel like she can control. Her house, her job. 

Part of what I do is tell my wife while I appreciate everything she does in the house, that even if she didn't do half of it I would love her just the same. I tell her over and over that she is good enough even if the house is not clean. You need to be proactive with this but also ask her point blank. "Is it more important that the house is clean or that we are together?" "Why don't you trust my love enough to not have to worry about being perfect." When she starts to become obsessive talk to her about what it's really about. "Why are you cleaning again?" "What are you feeling right now when you need to clean this?" "Why are you feeling this, lets follow your chain of thought, what would happen if you didn't clean this thing right now?" "Why do you think you feel this way?" "Does this thinking make sense?" You need to do this very kindly though, not out of frustration. If you can make a breakthrough you can start to address this stuff this way. It will at least give her a check when she starts to spiral. If anything doing this has changed my wife and allowed her to relax a little. She knows I am not her mother, I thinks she feels safe with me. 

Now it's no doubt that your wife is suffering from mental illness too so I think you should go to her counselor with her and talk to him/her about what is really going on because he/she probably doesn't know as I doubt your wife is telling him that she is obsessively cleaning everything. She really needs help and you are probably the only one who can do it for her. 

(OK read the update that she quit the counselor, you need to change your thinking on this. Your wife has an illness, like cancer or something. If she was sick and couldn't get out you would take her to the hospital. You need to do the same with this. This is what a husband does in a relationship. You need to take the lead on this and take your clearly suffering wife to talk to someone. Go with her. I am not saying surprise her but make it under the guise of you want to save your marriage. Just make sure that you are clear that your motives are not that you are frustrated or angry with her but you are worried about her. Tell her over and over that you are worried about her, not I can't take this anymore. Has to be done in a loving way not a exasperated way.)

I am probably biased to this a little bit as I know the struggle, but hold on to your compassion just a little longer. Your wife is really suffering and needs help.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

She sounds like someone with untreated OCD/OCPD. The anxiety associated with these illnesses can be huge. It's very painful to suffer from them. The fear/anxiousness is often completely unmanageable and the repetitive, checking behavior drives everyone crazy. The OCD person is aware of how upsetting the behavior is to others and becomes needy, angry, and paranoid. Common sense judgment flies out the window.

I think she needs serious treatment for this. Medication and proper, targeted therapy.

Is she still coughing?


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Dude I mentioned OCD my first post. Did you miss it?


Not at all. However, OCD and OCPD have subtle differences. I had never heard of OCPD before and the distinctions were _extremely_ specific to her behavior.



> Like I said her being perfect is about her wanting control over her life, probably exacerbated on by the family? events you mention that started all this. The idea being that that made her feel like she was losing control so subconsciously she started focusing on things that make her feel like she can control. Her house, her job.


You are absolutely correct, and I'm aware of this. A lot of her job stress revolves around the feeling that minor conflicts are much more significant than they are and that people will think badly of her. Sometimes she is aware of this, other times not.



> Part of what I do is tell my wife while I appreciate everything she does in the house, that even if she didn't do half of it I would love her just the same.


I thought this was an excellent approach, too. Unfortunately, it didn't work. She's doing it "for me" for herself, because I've been abundantly clear that I don't want it.



> (OK read the update that she quit the counselor, you need to change your thinking on this. Your wife has an illness, like cancer or something. If she was sick and couldn't get out you would take her to the hospital. You need to do the same with this. This is what a husband does in a relationship. You need to take the lead on this and take your clearly suffering wife to talk to someone. Go with her. I am not saying surprise her but make it under the guise of you want to save your marriage. Just make sure that you are clear that your motives are not that you are frustrated or angry with her but you are worried about her. Tell her over and over that you are worried about her, not I can't take this anymore. Has to be done in a loving way not a exasperated way.)


The problem with the metaphor is that she can get out, and simply doesn't want to. As I said above about OCPD, one of the hallmarks of the condition is that the person does not realize anything is wrong with their behavior and thinks that everyone else is somehow interfering, obstructionist, or otherwise deficient. This is why nothing that would relieve the burden can really happen. Delegating just proves her point about it because people are human and make mistakes.

In fact, a large part of what have been pushing me over the line in the last month or so are the frequent conversations about the cleaning she's planning for the day and the absurdly rigid rules that she needs me to follow to keep the house in order, which now include pouring things directly down the center of the sink so that it doesn't get dirty. She simply does not see the problem with organizing her life around this or becoming angry with others for failing to be as meticulous.

A few years ago she started talking about her love of line-drying the sheets on a sunny day in front of two female coworkers, and by the end of it she had gotten to the point where she was detailing how she likes to spritz them with lavender after they've gotten enough sun and they were both just staring at me in horror. She, on the other hand, was practically singing at the thought of it.

She is suffering in a clinical sense that this is exhausting for her and interfering with her relationships, but she does not perceive that she is "suffering" in the sense that the unreasonableness of it is the root cause of her unhappiness. _I_ am the one with the problem because I apparently want her to "be a slob" and "live in a pigsty".



> I am probably biased to this a little bit as I know the struggle, but hold on to your compassion just a little longer. Your wife is really suffering and needs help.


I don't fundamentally disagree with anything you've said, but nothing is going to be accomplished from within the house other than me ending up in an ambulance after a mild stroke. She will not acknowledge the need for therapy for this unless she wants it, and she's not going to want it as long as she feels that her behavior is imperative to keeping the household in order. I don't see that there's much left to do other than show her that this is what takes away the household. 

I can _say_ things like "is it more important that the house is clean or that we are together" until I'm blue in the face, but it doesn't click with her that this might actually end because of the behavior. I hold out some hope that actually sitting in her museum exhibit all by herself might help get the point across that this is a real problem, but of course I can't count on that.



alte Dame said:


> Is she still coughing?


This has been better lately. I don't know why. There are still episodes of it. She still won't take it seriously.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Well that is unfortunate, maybe you leaving will force her to get help. This is very clearly mental illness.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Don't move back in with her until this is dealt with to a degree that you can live with (assuming that's even possible).


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I have one sister with treated OCD. She has suffered her entire adult life with it, but has managed to have a good marriage because of her treatment.

I have another sister with untreated OCD and she hits all the notes for OCPD. (Obviously, this runs in my family a bit - 2 of 5 children with the problem.) This particular sister is impossible to live with. She has burned all of her bridges with us. She truly believes that her deluded analysis of everything is absolutely correct and anyone who disagrees is 'in denial.' As her disease has progressed, she has become almost nasty in her tendency to gossip and undermine. She won't accept that she needs treatment because she knows the truth and the rest of us are not intelligent enough to understand that.

OCD and OCPD get much worse when tragedies of life occur. So much of the disorder is control-based, i.e., the afflicted person feels like he/she has little control in life so tries to control what is possible - cleaning, organizing, sanitizing of the immediate environment.

When tragedy strikes, the person feels an even greater sense that he/she has no control and thus ups the OCD behaviors. The brain doesn't let up with this disorder. The obsessions and compulsions are torturous.

I am the family point person for the sister who is in treatment. I've been trained to 'talk her down' when the repetitive, intrusive thoughts become truly overwhelming. We've been doing this for 40 years and actually have a pretty good system.

From your description, your W needs the sort of professional help that she isn't getting. I'm sorry for both of you. This is no way to live.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

a_mister said:


> I'll spare you most of the details again, but I'm moving out.
> 
> We're still working on it. I love her. She loves me. I finally had to tell her point-blank that it simply isn't working with us living together
> 
> ...


Mutual love within a marriage is a requirement, yes, but it is not and never has been "enough".

Mental illness does run in families and many severe illnesses do not manifest themselves fully until age 25 or older. Earlier in the thread you mentioned her father left her mother at around this age because he couldn't take it anymore. You also mentioned an exH. I'm going with she has a serious mental illness, probably the same one that drover her father to divorce her mother, and perhaps one that her first husband was seeing the beginning stages of and also couldn't cope with. She absolutely needs psychiatric help. Not a counselor. Not a therapist. A psychiatrist.

The reasons her previous therapist failed were that A) s/he was under qualified to deal with such a severe illness and B) she wasn't honest about her actual mental health issues. Without full disclosure on part of the patient, and the education and experienced necessary on part of the mental health professional, any kind of therapy is going to fail.

The improvement in sex life is likely hysterical bonding. Your marriage is being threatened, so that triggers the hysterical bonding. It will probably fade over time unless you continue the back and forth, at which point you'll be in and out of hysterical bonding phases until the dust settles.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> I'm going with she has a serious mental illness, probably the same one that drover her father to divorce her mother, and perhaps one that her first husband was seeing the beginning stages of and also couldn't cope with. She absolutely needs psychiatric help. Not a counselor. Not a therapist. A psychiatrist.


I generally agree with this. There are things that I can't really explain here because it's too specific, but I feel like I should paint a picture here.

Her ex-husband has severe and deteriorating mental problems at the far opposite end of the behavioral spectrum. Unlike either of us, he does not have a career (anymore) or even any current friendships. While she might have had tendencies and been excessively orderly even then - and I'm sure it contributed to their divorce (she is the one who physically got up and left, although she believes he intentionally began provoking her anxieties to run her out, and based on what I've seen of his behavior, I agree) - what was their home is now a complete ruin in which he lives in squalor. Actual squalor, with rodents, mold, hardwood floors ruined by dogs, and cobbled amateur electrical work. He is rail-thin. People who have tried to visit him and seen the state of him and of the house are upset by it.

Without her running around holding the house together, everything did, in fact, go completely off the rails. Some of what she attributes to me in this house, in my opinion, is obviously transference from what happened in that house and she can't shake the fear that things will deteriorate again after the more recent tragedy, which did involve her ex-husband's mental health issues to an extent.



> The reasons her previous therapist failed were that A) s/he was under qualified to deal with such a severe illness and B) she wasn't honest about her actual mental health issues. Without full disclosure on part of the patient, and the education and experienced necessary on part of the mental health professional, any kind of therapy is going to fail.


Also agree. Her initial therapist - who has since passed on - was helping her to cope very well, and I may have underestimated what a difference it was making and how much she was struggling, especially that she was able to speak freely about the situation but no longer feels that there's anything left to say to a new therapist so doesn't really vent it out.



> The improvement in sex life is likely hysterical bonding. Your marriage is being threatened, so that triggers the hysterical bonding. It will probably fade over time unless you continue the back and forth, at which point you'll be in and out of hysterical bonding phases until the dust settles.


Here's where we may diverge. My understanding of "hysterical bonding" is that it's where one partner is aggressively trying to salvage the connection with the other. I believe that, instead, we're simply both able to breath because we see a way beyond the situation. I don't know if it comes across in my writing, but while the run-up to this has been terrible and we both feel bad that it isn't working, we're actually both quite happy and relieved with the decision itself since the One Big Fight about it.

As I said before, I really feel that if there's going to be any progress, that it was never going to happen while we were under the same roof grating on each other daily. There still might not be, maybe this just isn't going to work out, but at least we can take a step back, say what we need to say, and walk away from each other to sleep on it in separate rooms in separate buildings if we need to instead of cyclically angering each other and being stuck in the house together, unable to sleep, until we can barely remember what we said.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

a_mister said:


> Also agree. Her initial therapist - who has since passed on - was helping her to cope very well, and I may have underestimated what a difference it was making and how much she was struggling, especially that she was able to speak freely about the situation but no longer feels that there's anything left to say to a new therapist so doesn't really vent it out.
> 
> Here's where we may diverge. My understanding of "hysterical bonding" is that it's where one partner is aggressively trying to salvage the connection with the other. I believe that, instead, we're simply both able to breath because we see a way beyond the situation. I don't know if it comes across in my writing, but while the run-up to this has been terrible, we're actually both quite happy and relieved with the decision itself since the One Big Fight about it.
> 
> As I said before, I really feel that if there's going to be any progress, that it was never going to happen while we were under the same roof grating on each other daily. There still might not be, but at least we can take a step back, say what we need to say, and walk away from each other to sleep on it in separate rooms in separate buildings if we need to instead of cyclically angering each other and being stuck in the house together, unable to sleep, until we can barely remember what we said.



Hysterical bonding is actually a mutual thing and appears when the relationship is threatened. Usually used in the context of affairs, but is very common during new separations or after ultimatums. The relief and lack of pressure may be part of that or may be contributing. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. If the issues that split you up can be solved the hysterical bonding response might be the glue that helps hold you together until that time. Just be careful it doesn't keep you attached after you should be beginning to detach, if you get what I'm saying.

Which brings me to therapy. Living apart like this does work for some marriages, but those people tend to be the exception rather than the rule. Most people want their spouse with them in the same home. It's likely the new situation will become unsustainable in the long term. If saving the marriage and being able to share a home is the goal here, well, she needs to get moving. Finding the proper mental health professional takes time. Medication, if needed, takes time to get right. Talk therapy and any thought or behavior modification also takes time.

You and/or she need to find a psychiatrist as soon as possible and she needs to be open and honest with said psychiatrist. Your marriage depends on it.


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> Just be careful it doesn't keep you attached after you should be beginning to detach, if you get what I'm saying.
> 
> Which brings me to therapy. Living apart like this does work for some marriages, but those people tend to be the exception rather than the rule. Most people want their spouse with them in the same home. It's likely the new situation will become unsustainable in the long term. If saving the marriage and being able to share a home is the goal here, well, she needs to get moving. Finding the proper mental health professional takes time. Medication, if needed, takes time to get right. Talk therapy and any thought or behavior modification also takes time.
> 
> You and/or she need to find a psychiatrist as soon as possible and she needs to be open and honest with said psychiatrist. Your marriage depends on it.


I do understand and agree.

Couples counseling was already back on the table when I hit my limit. After the initial blowout in January with me insisting on it (which ended in me sleeping in a hotel and getting a storage unit), she's brought it up and then backed down twice. It came up a third time that morning and I had told her - again - that we should, but then the pressure increased through the day until I had to break the news. I hadn't been able to sleep the night before, then was woken up at dawn that morning for a "talk", and she kept pushing some issue I can no longer remember after I went downstairs to work. That was just it for me.

Once the dust settled from that, we talked about going once the move is complete. Point is, there's a history of her bluffing about this, but I'm holding out hope that this time she understands the relationship really has deteriorated and that she needs to address these issues out in the open.

However, when I say "hit my limit", I mean that I'm at peace with whichever way this goes. I love her and want the best for her, but I can't control whether or not she participates in that and if I have to move on, that's what happens. Waking up in that Hilton without wondering if there was going to be an Airing of Grievances was, predictably, quite nice. My focus for my free time this week is making the arrangements for a peaceful place to have deep sleeps - while juggling the repairs to our home. I'll look for mental health professionals after that.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

a_mister said:


> Once the dust settled from that, we talked about going once the move is complete. Point is, there's a history of her bluffing about this, but I'm holding out hope that this time she understands the relationship really has deteriorated and that she needs to address these issues out in the open.


State that she needs to see a qualified psychiatrist, be honest with him/her, and participate actively in her own treatment or the marriage will have to end. She's on her last chance. State it clearly and as often as necessary until you are sure she understands. It's not enough for her to go. She has to be brutally honest about the issues and she has to put in the work necessary to resolve those issues. No coasting, no half-arsing.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> State that she needs to see a qualified psychiatrist, be honest with him/her, and participate actively in her own treatment or the marriage will have to end. She's on her last chance. State it clearly and as often as necessary until you are sure she understands. It's not enough for her to go. She has to be brutally honest about the issues and she has to put in the work necessary to resolve those issues. No coasting, no half-arsing.


This is all true.

But @a_mister - if she does have a personality disorder, OCPD or any of them, she will not be able to just "decide" to get better. It isn't like that. Any type of PD means that the person is not equipped with the kind of self awareness that non disordered people have. 

There is a lot of help (for you) here:

https://outofthefog.website/


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

Faithful Wife said:


> This is all true.
> 
> But @a_mister - if she does have a personality disorder, OCPD or any of them, she will not be able to just "decide" to get better. It isn't like that. Any type of PD means that the person is not equipped with the kind of self awareness that non disordered people have.
> 
> ...


Understanding is always helpful, but sometimes we as human beings have reached our limit to the point where it can become almost dangerous for us to continue in the present circumstances. It’s just a sad reality


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

@a_mister, how are things going for you?


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