# A new Identity -- Divorcee



## sherri1997

I have been on TAM for awhile now -- since back in July when things were still unfolding. I have my story here somewhere, but I don't know how to link it but will try to find how to link it at some point.

I have lurked here in this forum, life after divorce b/c I thought that I would be excited to be here and the feeling of "it's finally over" would hit me but it is far from over.

My RLF think I should be over this and moving on but there have been so many setbacks in this whole process and I am no where near where I want to be. I know what I want, but getting there is tough. I have tried to date since I signed my divorce papers back in Nov, but I am just not ready and I ignore the red flags that are there so that tells me that I am not ready.

How do you move on? I read about everyone just all of a sudden having it click for me and I am waiting for that to happen? Meanwhile, my EX is already and has been in a relationship since the early days of us trying to reconcile. She is now living there with him and has been for awhile and it kills me that he puts our young kids in that situation but there is nothing that I can do. 

I think that worst thing is that he has gotten away with everything and anything that he has wanted to do. He had an affair and blamed me for it. He hooked up with this woman (who I have known of for many years and never thought that they would ever get together) and he has done all of this while we were still married and thinks nothing is wrong with anything that he did. 

We still have court for custody up and coming but with no set date. I have a good lawyer but one that I feel isn't really fighting for what I want and I don't know how to tell her what I want b/c I feel stupid for feeling the way that I do.

I want to move back home (an hour away) and being told that I probably won't win that fight b/c of my EX work schedule. I am not moving b/c I want to run away from him or keep the kids away but because I want to go back home (this is where we are bother from) and be with my friends and family. He has alientated everyone here to where I have no support system b/c he has told so many lies and I just want to start fresh and get back into a healthy environment. 

He is fighting me for time with the kids but he only wants the days with them that he is off work and calling that 50% custody and the worst thing is that he might win b/c this is the schedule that they have been on in the past year .. even though when they started school, he was supposed to go back to the original schedule but didn't b/c his lawyer told him not too. 

He is hiding money b/c he works in the bar business and can hide cash -- he is hiding almost 30K in cash a year and I am trying to jump hoops to prove that he has made X amount in the past 3 years ... why all of a sudden is there a decrease? He is lying about the original affair that lead to our separation and saying that I have made it all up when he knows that isn't true. THen he is lying about the second OW and the fact that he was with her while we were trying to reconcile and that our marraige had no chance once he allowed her in the picture.

When does this stop? When will I be able to let go. I know people say to just move on and do things for myself and my kids and I do that on a daily basis. But there is always this bad feeling in me and anger ... and I don't know when that will go away?

Thanks for listening ... never thought I would be on a life after divorce forum but I am glad to be here with others that have gone through it and overcome it. Just need to know that there is an end to this? This fear that he will keep me here and in this town and get everything that he wants after all he did to destroy this family paralizes me at times ... I am so scared.


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## Freak On a Leash

I would NOT date while going through this. You need time to deal with what's on your plate and get over this before giving of yourself to another person. 

It's going to take awhile..Divorce is like grieving a death. Be patient and give it time. You are in for a long haul. 

The 5 Stages of Grieving the End of a Relationship | Psychology Today

In the meantime, hang out here, post, let it all out.. and remember that you aren't alone.


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## sherri1997

SO something has kicked in tonight. I am over this and I am angry. How dare he do this to me and our family and then walk around like he has done nothing wrong -- all the while, making me feel like this is my fault.

I think this is coming from today when he, once again, tells me he forgot the child support check. I depend on this check. My name is still on his account that he uses b/c it is my account. I want to go wipe the account clean and close it. But I don't b/c I am too afraid of getting in trouble. Yet, he can have an affair, hide income, have another affair, blame me and the list freaking goes on ... and he doesn't get in trouble? I am so beyond pissed right now ... to the point, that I don't care about him anymore. ALl I care about is protecting my kids and myself.

I sent him an email telling him that I need the check tomorrow and he ignores me ... are you freaking kidding me?

I want to get even and I want to destroy him ... please tell me that this stage passes too b/c right now, I am so angry!


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## Freak On a Leash

Sounds like you need a better lawyer. I didn't have a lawyer so I'm not the best at giving advice but it doesn't sound like the one you have is working for you. For what it costs you should reconsider and try talking to someone else. They all give free consultations so it can't hurt. 

Don't fight with him about the support. If he doesn't pay it, call your lawyer and/or take him to court. In some states you can arrange to have him put the money into a managed bank account so the money goes to you. In many cases the state will deduct the money automatically from his paycheck. You should look into this if you haven't already. 

Most of all, keep the emotions out of it. 

NO CONTACT helps most of all. I know this is often impossible. Keep your conversations short, to the point and without emotion. If he's not obeying the legal agreement you have then haul him into court. You got to keep a level head. 

It does get better but it's not easy, especially if you have kids, child support, visitation, etc in the mix. 

I didn't deal with any of that. I did my divorce myself. No lawyers. We didn't have much to fight over. Whatever money he had was inherited and I had no claim to and we didnt' own much. No house and everything was pretty much paid for. I just wanted to get the heck away from whatever debts he was running up once he went through his inheritance money. We were separated 2 years before I filed and lived apart. Fortunately I always kept most of my finances separate from his and that's what saved me. 

I got a quick, cheap divorce without any ties. No support, no visitation or custody agreement. Just a plain divorce. Took less than 3 months from start to finish.

My college age daughter has nothing to do with him and my 16 year old son lives with him and I pay for what my son needs directly. I give no money to my ex. Worked out well. I haven't seen/talked face to face to him in a year and the last time we talked on the phone was before New Years. Mostly I text him. Usually I just talk to my son to arrange to see him. Works well. 

Here's my story, if you want to be able to relate to what I've gone through and how I got past it:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/life-after-divorce/62612-after-2-years-its-finally-going-happen.html


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## sherri1997

That is the problem. We have no papers yet. We still have a pending litigation for child support, alimony ect. The only papers that we have, is the request for divorce, which he signed and I didn't have to. That should be final, well, was final a couple of days ago but I haven't got the actual papers saying that we are divorced. I should get those in 30 days.

So, I can't do anything about him not paying right now and I have no idea when court is. 

I would get a new lawyer, but in my area, there isn't any free consulations for a child custody case. And I have already paid my lawyer a lot of money, that I can't get back now.


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## bravenewworld

sherri1997 said:


> That is the problem. We have no papers yet. We still have a pending litigation for child support, alimony ect. The only papers that we have, is the request for divorce, which he signed and I didn't have to. That should be final, well, was final a couple of days ago but I haven't got the actual papers saying that we are divorced. I should get those in 30 days.
> 
> So, I can't do anything about him not paying right now and I have no idea when court is.
> 
> I would get a new lawyer, but in my area, there isn't any free consulations for a child custody case. And I have already paid my lawyer a lot of money, that I can't get back now.


Private Investigator - preferably a hot chick. Get her to go into the bar he works at and pretend to be interested in getting a job there. No doubt he'll blab to her what the tipping situation is. Get this all recorded if possible. Have him followed for a few days and find all the worms under the rock. Prepare an "insurance" file and let him know if he wants to play hardball you have some info the IRS would surely be interested in. He's probably screwing around on the new chick too so that will be more ammo.

My lawyer was a pit bull, but if my ex had pulled that kind of crap or was being disagreeable plan #2 was the above.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2

Feel free to take out some of your frustration and anger on your attorney, that is what you pay them for. Make a pest of yourself to get some paperwork. Talk with the attorney about the consequences of your moving home now, before the paperwork, before the court date. That would make ex go to court to change it if he really wants the kids (I bet he doesn't, I bet he just wants to jerk you around over the kids).
You are their mom and I bet you are the primary care-giver. In lots of courts that still counts for a lot.
Why don't you have an order of temporary support? Honestly, go yell at the attorney.


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## EnjoliWoman

Have you decided what you want yet? Decide. Don't worry about whether it's fair or likely to happen. It's only a starting point.

If you already have so much paid to an attorney what have they done? Again, decide what you want. Schedule a conference call and have your list in front of you. You'll want to outline what you would like to achieve and a list of questions as to how you get there for each topic - custody, alimony, support. She'll tell you what's possible and what you would have to prove. Include any "what ifs" you think might pop up including moving as you mentioned. 

Ask about what should be done to split current joint accounts. Get your free credit reports to review all accounts that you are listed on to be sure you don't miss one.

Ask about a forensic accountant to find all of the money and review the books.

Now is the time to focus. Your attorney will cost you less if you go in very focused. Each conference call should be very productive and as brief as possible to make the most of your money. And stick to facts. Don't get off on tangents.

Get a file box and start gathering your paperwork/records/evidence.

Getting organized and having a plan will focus your thoughts and give you more confidence. Don't complain to her about the injustices, etc. that's what friends are for.


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## sherri1997

bravenewworld said:


> Private Investigator - preferably a hot chick. Get her to go into the bar he works at and pretend to be interested in getting a job there. No doubt he'll blab to her what the tipping situation is. Get this all recorded if possible. Have him followed for a few days and find all the worms under the rock. Prepare an "insurance" file and let him know if he wants to play hardball you have some info the IRS would surely be interested in. He's probably screwing around on the new chick too so that will be more ammo.
> 
> My lawyer was a pit bull, but if my ex had pulled that kind of crap or was being disagreeable plan #2 was the above.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have thought about the PI but only to prove that he is still bartending b/c he is trying to say he is managing more now. I know he isn't doing anything wrong now. He is staying clean as a whistle b/c of the court pending. I have some people that tell me what's going on with him and he is staying clean.


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## sherri1997

Pluto2 said:


> Feel free to take out some of your frustration and anger on your attorney, that is what you pay them for. Make a pest of yourself to get some paperwork. Talk with the attorney about the consequences of your moving home now, before the paperwork, before the court date. That would make ex go to court to change it if he really wants the kids (I bet he doesn't, I bet he just wants to jerk you around over the kids).
> You are their mom and I bet you are the primary care-giver. In lots of courts that still counts for a lot.
> Why don't you have an order of temporary support? Honestly, go yell at the attorney.


I am going to make an appointment with my attorney. The problem is that everytime I talk to her, I don't feel like I am getting anywhere? It is frustrating b/c she tells me the same thing everytime I go ... that I have a strong case but x, y, and z might be hard to get b/c of the situation. It is so darn frustrating b/c I don't know where I stand. THe last session with my lawyer wasn't productive at all and now I am scared to even approach her.


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## Jellybeans

There is no "set time" where you should just be "over it." Experience it, feel it, move through it. There isn't an end date for feeling nothing again about it. That's not how it works.

When all the legalities are wrapped up, a new chapter will begin for you. 

Until then, don't beat yourself up too bad. Sometimes you won't think of i as much and other times, it will come like wave in a flash and slap you in the face. This is normal. Expect to feel all over the place. 

But try your best not to wallow. Put one foot in front of the other and keep living.


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> Have you decided what you want yet? Decide. Don't worry about whether it's fair or likely to happen. It's only a starting point.
> 
> If you already have so much paid to an attorney what have they done? Again, decide what you want. Schedule a conference call and have your list in front of you. You'll want to outline what you would like to achieve and a list of questions as to how you get there for each topic - custody, alimony, support. She'll tell you what's possible and what you would have to prove. Include any "what ifs" you think might pop up including moving as you mentioned.
> 
> Ask about what should be done to split current joint accounts. Get your free credit reports to review all accounts that you are listed on to be sure you don't miss one.
> 
> Ask about a forensic accountant to find all of the money and review the books.
> 
> Now is the time to focus. Your attorney will cost you less if you go in very focused. Each conference call should be very productive and as brief as possible to make the most of your money. And stick to facts. Don't get off on tangents.
> 
> Get a file box and start gathering your paperwork/records/evidence.
> 
> Getting organized and having a plan will focus your thoughts and give you more confidence. Don't complain to her about the injustices, etc. that's what friends are for.


I have all of that. I have three binders full of tax returns, bank accounts, proof of income that was cash deposited for past 3 years, all debt listed out and who is paying what, three years worth of itemized expenses from bank account and the one credit card I use, proof of the text messages between the OW#1 and Ex, two calendars full of when he has paid what and when I have paid for childcare, calendar full of what activities that I have done with the kids. My lawyer has been very happy with all the evidence that I have now and all of my spreadsheets b/c they show everything.

I can't get a temp child order b/c he isn't doing anything wrong in the courts eyes. THe schedule we were to have before last summer was the kids were with him on Sunday, Monday and Wed during the summer and once school started, he was to get them on Sun and Mon but when school started, he woudln't go back to that schedule b/c he puts me at having primary physical custody and his lawyer told him no. We went to mediation and agreed on everything but when he went back to his lawyer, he told him no. So, I have no way to request temp custody b/c they have been on this schedule for so long. My kids are young and my oldest just started kindergarden. I am requesting to have them during the week, while in school so they aren't bouncing back and forth between one home and the other whilein school. Kindergarden is easy .. I am worried about later grades and the need for them to be in one home during the week. He is saying b/c of his work schedule, that he can only have them on his days off. 

My lawyer said that he won't get primary physical custody and he won't get the week on and week off schedule but b/c they have been on this schedule for so long and judges don't like to change things, that he might get the schedule we are currently on. Which isn't 50% custody and I would still have them 5 full days out of the week but b/c of that third night that they are with him, it would cut my child support down, big time. And it would keep me from moving an hour away b/c they would have to change school systems and they wouldn't be able to see him on the days he was awarded. This is why ia m so scared. I have all the financial stuff and am not too concerned with that. I have always worked part-time but went fulltime back in Sept b/c I couldn't afford it but I make really good bonuses and we are having to prove that isn't part of my income .. it is all a huge mess.

At this point, I just want the kids with me during teh school week and he is welcome to see them any other time and I will work with whatever schedule he wants in the summer. He is a good dad ... crappy husband and crappy man, but a good dad to them. He loves them and I don't want to take them away from him but I do want what's best for school.


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## EnjoliWoman

Just because they are in different homes during the week doesn't mean it's bad for the kids. As long as their sleep/wake schedule stays relatively the same and he does the required reading or homework with them (mine started at age 4 having 'homework' - had to have 2 books read to her every night and keep a reading log). So since you think he's a good Dad, I would put that part aside unless he starts keeping them up late or not doing school work.

As to your support, if he really has them half the time (therefore toiletries, food, etc split) then you two should agree upon their other expenses such as clothing, sports fees/gear and medical expenses. If he has them 50% then he needs to buy or reimburse you for half of those things. Perhaps you should agree to do all of the buying/paying and he has 30 days to reimburse you from the time you present him with those expenses. You won't need the additional child support if he's contributing his half of everything.

It seems the big sticking issue is your relocating for work. If you can show that you cannot get a comparable job nearby and therefore the kids going back and forth during the week isn't doable for you, then I don't see why a judge wouldn't work out something reasonable - maybe the father gets them just as he has but he is responsible for transporting them to the new school? Your son is only in kindergarten. If there is ever a time to change schools, it's now. 

I certainly understand why he wants to see them on his days off. There are established ways to handle that sort of schedule as there are lots of careers that aren't 8-5 and parents still need to have quality time with the kids. After all, he may be off but he still has to get them to school so he never gets the kind of time you would with a traditional M-F schedule.

See if you can gather evidence about the schools in your area. Add to that, that your support system - family - is in that area as well and that is often a good argument to make. So if you do need someone to pick them up or babysit or help out in any way they can help. Perhaps you can even select a new place that is on the edge of the new town closest to ex?

Judges really need to know that you are making choices based on the well-being of the kids. The 1 day making a huge difference in support is a bit of a red flag regarding intent. Instead of worrying about the child support total amount, focus on a fair way to share the expenses so you don't get stuck with all of the expenses and less support - it can come out the same either way if done properly.

And as I pointed out, kids are very resilient and adaptable to a varying schedule - the most important thing is for there to be no surprises, so help remind them whenever they go to Dad's - they'll adjust better. Ask Dad to do the same.


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## EnjoliWoman

And remember, if this doesn't work out, you have shown to the courts that you were reasonable and gave this a shot. Then if you have to revisit the parenting schedule, you have that on your side.

Mine started off 50/50 3/4/4/3 but he was keeping her up late, getting to pre-K late, not doing the reading log... and I felt she needed a more consistent schedule and the judge agreed so we went to a more traditional arrangement.


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## Wolf1974

Look you can't let go or move past it till it's all over and done with. Many things are horrible about divorce but one of the hardest things is uncertainty. Until everything is done you don't know where you can live, how much the support will be, the custody arrangement and so on. Just try now to get THROUGH this. When it's done then you can try and get OVER it. One thing at a time


Divorces are all like this to some degree. Just the details that are changed


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> Just because they are in different homes during the week doesn't mean it's bad for the kids. As long as their sleep/wake schedule stays relatively the same and he does the required reading or homework with them (mine started at age 4 having 'homework' - had to have 2 books read to her every night and keep a reading log). So since you think he's a good Dad, I would put that part aside unless he starts keeping them up late or not doing school work.
> 
> As to your support, if he really has them half the time (therefore toiletries, food, etc split) then you two should agree upon their other expenses such as clothing, sports fees/gear and medical expenses. If he has them 50% then he needs to buy or reimburse you for half of those things. Perhaps you should agree to do all of the buying/paying and he has 30 days to reimburse you from the time you present him with those expenses. You won't need the additional child support if he's contributing his half of everything.
> 
> It seems the big sticking issue is your relocating for work. If you can show that you cannot get a comparable job nearby and therefore the kids going back and forth during the week isn't doable for you, then I don't see why a judge wouldn't work out something reasonable - maybe the father gets them just as he has but he is responsible for transporting them to the new school? Your son is only in kindergarten. If there is ever a time to change schools, it's now.
> 
> I certainly understand why he wants to see them on his days off. There are established ways to handle that sort of schedule as there are lots of careers that aren't 8-5 and parents still need to have quality time with the kids. After all, he may be off but he still has to get them to school so he never gets the kind of time you would with a traditional M-F schedule.
> 
> See if you can gather evidence about the schools in your area. Add to that, that your support system - family - is in that area as well and that is often a good argument to make. So if you do need someone to pick them up or babysit or help out in any way they can help. Perhaps you can even select a new place that is on the edge of the new town closest to ex?
> 
> Judges really need to know that you are making choices based on the well-being of the kids. The 1 day making a huge difference in support is a bit of a red flag regarding intent. Instead of worrying about the child support total amount, focus on a fair way to share the expenses so you don't get stuck with all of the expenses and less support - it can come out the same either way if done properly.
> 
> And as I pointed out, kids are very resilient and adaptable to a varying schedule - the most important thing is for there to be no surprises, so help remind them whenever they go to Dad's - they'll adjust better. Ask Dad to do the same.


I understand everything that you are saying and I appreciate the feedback. I wasn't saying that the daily routine is based on getting more child support ... I only meant that he only has them 2 days but three nights but on that third night, he gets them at 6pm so it isn't really a 50/50 childcare schedule but it impacts child support. If he would work with me on child support, like I have tried to get him to do, then I wouldn't be going to court. I don't care what the states says he has to pay, as long as I can pay my bills and provide for the kids, then he can pay what we can agree too but he doesn't want to pay much, if anything b/c he says he has the kids on his days off.

About moving .. I work from home, so it isn't for work. It is more about being close to family and moving back where I am from. The only reason that I was still living here and not back home was b/c of our marriage. I would love to say that I could stay here but after all that has happen, my best place to be would be back home. And I am moving on the outskirts of the town where I am from to be about 30 minutes closer to EX .. it would be about a 50 min drive to get to him. Everything that we built here, in this town, is lost and gone and I want my kids to grow up around family and my lifelong friends. I would do eveyrthing that I could to make sure that I helped with getting the kids to him and in his life. He is from that area too so if he ever wanted to move, he could as there are more job opportunities, ect. In the end, I do think it would work out best for the kids as well b/c they will have a mother that is in a better place emotionally and financially and they would be around family. I am not trying to move to run from him or keep the kids away from him .. I would never do that.

I don't really agree about the bouncing back and forth ... right now, they are with him on Monday, with me on Tues and then with him on Wed and then with me on Thursday ... it isn't like they are with him for 3 days and then me the last 4 ... it is a crazy schedule and it won't work in the long run. He says he does homework with her, ect but I have been keeping record of it and he hasn't. So, this is a huge concern. He loves his kids but it is about how much he would have to pay me. He told me in text that I could have the kids back on Wed like I was asking to avoid court if I would agree to the low amount of child support that he is paying now and to give him the equity in the house that I have been paying for since we split and not try to get alimony. He doesn't care how often he has the kids, as long as he doesn't have to pay me. Does that make sense?


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## Openminded

At one time women could move with the children and men had no say in the matter. Obviously, that's not the case any longer. What did your lawyer say about that?


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## angstire

sherri1997 said:


> At this point, I just want the kids with me during teh school week and he is welcome to see them any other time and I will work with whatever schedule he wants in the summer.


And this is what's best for the kids; tell your attorney this is what you want. He crapped all over your mediation, you're back at square 1. For the kids and the consistency of school, either go for full custody during the week or 50/50 where you switch each week, so the kids are in one place for an entire week.

Having a custody schedule for the next ~15 years based on his current schedule as a bar manager or bartender is unlikely to work for that entire time. Jobs change, schedules change, careers change. A custody schedule based on what he's been doing for a few years is not a good idea.

Take care.


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## stillhoping

and somewhere in here, its ok to just be sad or whatever. Take some time to let the emotions play out a bit, not overwhelm you but be felt, otherwise, they just take over whenever they want


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## EnjoliWoman

Sherri - OK, I get the bigger picture now. I just want to be fair to both genders as it pertains to support and visitation when I reply and consider there are always two sides and sometimes ulterior motives. Not that I'm referring to you. Just unbiased.

I think you might as well take it to court if you have to.

You can point out why you want to move back to home town and not just emotionally for you but for reliable caregivers when needed and close social circles where Moms know each other and know each others kids and they all grow up socializing together. 

And that he isn't doing schoolwork on school nights - it seems small to some who may think it's just kindergarten, but Dad is teaching them that play time with him is more important than school and these are lifelong habits that are in the making, and reading and schoolwork are good habits.

And lastly you are compromising because you are choosing and area in town that is as close to him as you can be without actually leaving town.

All of these things show that your focus is on what is good for the kids long term and that you are being very reasonable in what you are asking PLUS you are willing to facilitate his parenting time in any way you can.

I think you'd have a good chance at getting the outcome you are looking for.

And wise words from my attorney: "if you don't think it's fair and HE doesn't think it's fair... it's probably fair." I haven't forgotten that.


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## angstire

Freak On a Leash said:


> The 5 Stages of Grieving the End of a Relationship | Psychology Today


Nice article, thanks! 

Short and to the point.


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## sherri1997

Thanks everyone. I am trying to be fair and open minded to what he wants b/c I do think it is important for my kids ... I don't care about him, but I do care about the kids. But for him, everything is his way only and if I don't bend, then he won't bend ... it is unnerving.

I am so sad today. I can't get this constant record out of my head. The should have and if I would have. I know this was beyond my control but seeing him moved on (less than 24 hours after he left me) hurts more that I can ever describe. I am angry -- oh so angry but I have no where to direct that anger b/c he doesn't care. He doesn't care that he has destroyed my life and blames me. 

I know I am to blame for how I am now. I could do more to move on. I stay very active with the kids and do all sorts of things with them like to the park, picnics, skating, pool time, ymca, library, ect. But there is always this constant pain and it has been that way for 17 months now .. when does it end. Why do I still cry over him being with the OW#2? Why do I still think about the two of them so much. It is so easy to say, just stop thinking about them but I can't ... no matter how much I try, I can't. 

I know I could go out and date someone to get past this and use them to mask this pain but where will that leave me in the end? I know the changes of them two lasting are very slim and I shouldn't even think about that but they have lasted over a year now ... even through the lies and everything they built was based on lies and deception -- but they are still together and still doing things as a family with my kids and he is still blaming me ... heLl, I am still blaming me.

I just don't understand how he can walk around and do these things? He has said in the past, that this is what I shoudl have expected. He told me he would have been moved on, while I was still hurting and regretting not letting him move back home after the affair, while we were trying to reconcile. But at what cost? If I would have let him come back home then I would still be unhappy and wondering if he was with another woman and he wouldn't have learned a darn thing .. he still hasn't learned a darn thing.

He asked me to have the kids this Sat morning. We will be out of town, so they can't have them. And I would have let them go be with him even though I know he wanted them b/c they were going to some family function event and it kills me to know that he takes her and my kids to these things? His coworkers and friends didn't meet the OW#2 until this past Oct or Nov... so to them, it looks like he took time on his own and has moved on but that isn't the case. So, I am left, looking like the fool and b/c I kept my mouth shut about the first OW, they know nothing about that either. They just think that we grew apart and that he left b/c I didn't make him happy.

I am letting all of this bother me and I know I shouldn't. I can journal all day long and talk all day long about it but at the end of the day, I feel crappy. Please tell me this stops and thanks for listening!


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## Paradise

sherri1997 said:


> Thanks everyone. I am trying to be fair and open minded to what he wants b/c I do think it is important for my kids ... I don't care about him, but I do care about the kids. But for him, everything is his way only and if I don't bend, then he won't bend ... it is unnerving.
> 
> I am so sad today. I can't get this constant record out of my head. The should have and if I would have. I know this was beyond my control but seeing him moved on (less than 24 hours after he left me) hurts more that I can ever describe. I am angry -- oh so angry but I have no where to direct that anger b/c he doesn't care. He doesn't care that he has destroyed my life and blames me.
> 
> I know I am to blame for how I am now. I could do more to move on. I stay very active with the kids and do all sorts of things with them like to the park, picnics, skating, pool time, ymca, library, ect. But there is always this constant pain and it has been that way for 17 months now .. when does it end. Why do I still cry over him being with the OW#2? Why do I still think about the two of them so much. It is so easy to say, just stop thinking about them but I can't ... no matter how much I try, I can't.
> 
> I know I could go out and date someone to get past this and use them to mask this pain but where will that leave me in the end? I know the changes of them two lasting are very slim and I shouldn't even think about that but they have lasted over a year now ... even through the lies and everything they built was based on lies and deception -- but they are still together and still doing things as a family with my kids and he is still blaming me ... heLl, I am still blaming me.
> 
> I just don't understand how he can walk around and do these things? He has said in the past, that this is what I shoudl have expected. He told me he would have been moved on, while I was still hurting and regretting not letting him move back home after the affair, while we were trying to reconcile. But at what cost? If I would have let him come back home then I would still be unhappy and wondering if he was with another woman and he wouldn't have learned a darn thing .. he still hasn't learned a darn thing.
> 
> He asked me to have the kids this Sat morning. We will be out of town, so they can't have them. And I would have let them go be with him even though I know he wanted them b/c they were going to some family function event and it kills me to know that he takes her and my kids to these things? His coworkers and friends didn't meet the OW#2 until this past Oct or Nov... so to them, it looks like he took time on his own and has moved on but that isn't the case. So, I am left, looking like the fool and b/c I kept my mouth shut about the first OW, they know nothing about that either. They just think that we grew apart and that he left b/c I didn't make him happy.
> 
> I am letting all of this bother me and I know I shouldn't. I can journal all day long and talk all day long about it but at the end of the day, I feel crappy. Please tell me this stops and thanks for listening!


I think if you read more on here you will see when you go back that most of us have very similar stories to your own. Doesn't help you right now, I know, but in the beginning we were all crushed. 

You said he doesn't care that he destroyed your life. Well, most likely not...But fact is he didn't destroy your life. You get another change to build a new life now. That is the scary part at first but later when you start finding your new identity it becomes fun. I had a choice to continue being who I was and be an every other weekend dad like the POSOM my ex married or have my girl close to half the time and restart. I decided to be with my daughter. I had to give up a lot and completely start over but after a while you start to find new and exciting things to do with your life. 

Take care of you, right now. Use your free time to do that. It's not a curse, but a blessing if you use it wisely. Or...you can decide to be bitter and say your ex has "destroyed your life." Your call on that one. 

Please don't beat yourself up over the ex and his current lady nor the people he works with. It just isn't worth it. What's in it for you holding all of that anger? Hold your head high and tell yourself that you did everything you could. Life isn't always peaches and cream. 

Oh, and I get the sick feeling in your stomach when you see the ex and the new lady doing "family things" together. That will always eat at you a little. 

Keep venting here. It's a good place and there are a lot of pretty smart guys and gals on this site.


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## sherri1997

So today was a crappy day. I had to go to my ex lawyer to pick up my title. This is the title to my truck, that per the request of my ex, that I get put into my name. I put it in my name in Dec and once I did put it into my name, he refused to sign the title over to me when my tags renewed. So, I am riding around in expired tags and have been pulled over twice for it and got a ticket once. 

I talked with the DMV here and he has to sign several forms and the actual title to turn it over to me. My bank that I refinanced with gave me 5 months to get this done so that ends in May. I had to get my lawyer to call his lawyer and request that he sign the title and preserve any equity that was in it, so that my ex didn't think he would get taken on that b/c it was now in my name. I thought that was common freaking sense b/c whatever was in our names at time of separation, is considered marital property -- regardless if it changes into my name. 

Anyhow, after two weeks of waiting and my attorney raising heLl to his attorney ... I finally dropped the title and forms off with little "sign here" tabs for where Ex had to sign. I get the call today, to go pick them up so I loaded the kids up in the rain and drove downtown to his lawyers office to pick them up and only the freaking title is signed. I asked why and the paralegal came out and said, "this is all EX lawyer would let your EX sign" If my kids wouldn't have been there, I would have raised all kinds of HelL .. but I walked out and drive straight to my lawyers. I was so angry and shaking. My lawyer wasn't in the office, but I told her assistant that I am done with being nice and if him and his lawyer want to play dirty like this, then they can forget mediation and I will take his butt to court and to the cleaners. 

Here are the facts: He cheated on me and then left me for yet another woman and didn't even wait 24 hours before moving on with her. He had my young kids around her way too early. He is hiding income all over the place and thinks that he won't get caught, he walks around like he has done nothing wrong. I have taken all the marital debt and he has paid a very low amount of child support. My bills are about $1200 more than his a month and he makes more than I do. I have always been part-time since we had kids and I have been nice. I have offered mediation and tried to be civil but if they want to play games, then I can show spreadsheets galore where he is lying about so much and nail him financially. I even have an email telling me that his lawyer isn't charging him anything ... therefore, he can pay my attorney fees.

I am livid again. After I leave my lawyers office and calm down, the kids and I go to the grocery store. He starts calling me and I let it go to VM .. then he texts me. (I have changed my number twice to stop him from texting me but he always finds out my new number) I have asked him several times to not text me but he texts me and tells me to have the kids call him. So, I had my daughter call him and she tells him we are at the grocery store. She hangs up and 10 minutes later that jerk is standing right in front of us. I had to control myself. He talked with the kids and then looked at me and I got out of range from the kids and told him to get away from us. He said "it is a free world and I can be whereever I want to be" I told the kids to tell daddy that they loved him and gave him a chance to give them kisses and he stunk so bad. He smokes and he smelt so bad ... he actually spelt like pot and there hasn't been a day that I haven't known him to not smoke pot ... he smoked it every single day but I know that since we have been in this custody thing, he has stopped doing that b/c he knows the consequences, but he did smell like it today but it could have been the smell of an ashtray too. 

He left and I was so pissed. But there is nothing that I can do. I am waiting to hear back from my lawyer but I am going to go talk to her and set out what I want now. I don't think that mediation is a good thing... my EX possess a lot of Narcissistic personality traits and I just don't see us working through anything in mediation. If my lawyer wants to go soft on me, then I will switch lawyers.

Sorry, this is long, but I had to get it all out. I am so frustrated b/c I still can't get my tags and title fixed and he knows that I am on a time table for it or else my bank will raise my intrest rate up until I get it done ... I am just frurious that he can do whatever he wants and I have allowed it b/c I know we have to co-parent but now, he is making this all so much worse.


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## EnjoliWoman

Wow, what an ass regarding the truck. He should have to reimburse you for the ticket due to tags as well.

Do the kids have phones and/or do you have a home phone? Because if he has no way to call the kids then that will look really bad to the courts. You can certainly put in the order what your primary means of communication should be - not every has unlimited texts on their plan! Ours is email and it's in the order. If the email requires a response within 48 hours then the sender has to call or text to advise that they have an email that requires a response.

Also that we have to advise one another of any changes to our addresses and phone numbers and I think that's pretty standard. You both have a right to know where the kids lay their heads at night and how to reach them. But you CAN put strict parameters around that.

Mine says he can call 3x a week, for 15 minutes concluding before 9pm so as to not disrupt bedtime schedule. Note that this limitation was because of the parental alienation campaign he was conducting. That may not be appropriate in all circumstances - maybe for you it's a bedtime call but if you can establish the parameters that are suitable for your situation, there is less to argue about.

Those types of clauses in the custody order will help you keep your sanity. That way he can't call and harass all of the time and he can't dominate 

There's nothing you can do if the kids tell him where they are. He's going to press and you don't want them saying "mommy told us not to tell you". And no, mediation is NEVER a good thing with someone you suspect is NPD.

If you haven't already spoken to your attorney about it, look up "co-parenting" and "parallel parenting". In highly contentious divorces (and with the NPD person), parallel parenting is the way to go. In a perfect world we'd have divorces like Holland and co-parent in the friendlies, most cooperative way but sometimes that's impossible.

Vent away!


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## Pluto2

Good grief! I would get on the phone right away to your attorney. He is harassing you, stalking you, and by no means should you have to put up with this crap.

When it comes to custody, courts like stability for children. Switching back and forth several times a week will usually not sit well with judges, UNLESS that is what you've been doing for a while and the kids are fine with. I don't see how that is going to work with kids in school. If you don't think it is right for the kids, speak up. You are their mother and that is your job.

Don't worry so much right now about how you are doing, or whether you should be on the recovery road. You have not really been given a chance to recover. You are still having to function on survival mode. The truck, the money, the kids, crazy STBX, custody, support. This is what you are handling and you are doing ok. So try to take a few minutes a day and close your eyes and breath very, very deeply. Think about the most beautiful, peaceful place you can imagine. You will get there because you are a strong woman.


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## sherri1997

Thanks so much to both responses. I am better today and waiting to talk with my attorney.

I have a home phone through my wireless carrier and he has always had that number and I have that number forwarded to my cell phone. I did this back in Oct when he wouldn't stop texting me and I wasn't strong enough to just ignore. So, this way, he could call at anytime and talk with the kids. He also can email me at anytime and I have never kept the kids from talking to him.

The kids have been on this schedule for the whole first year of my oldest kindergarden .. my youngest is in pre-school two days a week so it doesn't really impact him yet. THe only reason they are on this schedule is b/c he wouldn't go back to what we verbally agreed to after the summer. I have it somewhere in texts but my lawyer said that we can't really use texts for verbal agreements. So, I have to try and show that although my oldest did okay in preschool, she will be going into higher grades where there is homework (b/c she doesn't have homework now) and my youngest will be starting school and the best thing for them in to be in one home. Due to his work schedule, I am trying to show that although I would prefer M-F in one home, his place of employment is closed on Monday, so I will allow the kids to be with him on Sunday evening when he gets off work at 1700 and stay on Monday b/c it is his only for sure day off ... but I will have to talk to my kids school and make sure or try to get them to send all homework home on Tuesday so I can manage that. He has done okay with homework and helping our daughter, but I just think it is for show right now b/c she has told me a few times that they didn't do any school work even though he had written down that they had. That is hard to show in court though and that is frustrating.


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## angstire

You are under no obligation to have the kids call him on your phone when he texts you to have you do that. He's not the boss of you. You do NOT have to say yes to that. Particularly when he's shown he be an a$$ and show up uninvited like that.

Is the truck paid off or does it still require payments? If he won't turn it over to you, go buy a new car and let him handle the payments, etc.


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## sherri1997

angstire said:


> You are under no obligation to have the kids call him on your phone when he texts you to have you do that. He's not the boss of you. You do NOT have to say yes to that. Particularly when he's shown he be an a$$ and show up uninvited like that.
> 
> Is the truck paid off or does it still require payments? If he won't turn it over to you, go buy a new car and let him handle the payments, etc.


Thanks so much. I know I don't have to let him to talk to them, but I don't want them to not be able to talk to him. I am trying to be as fair as I can be when it comes to them. They didn't ask for this and they love their father .. if he wants to talk to them, then I am very okay with that. Until I see that he is using them to get to me, I will allow it. BUt he is getting really close to that line and once he crossses it and hurts them to satisfy him hurting me, then I won't allow it. BUt he is smooth and he won't do it in a way to where they will catch on b/c of their ages.

With the truck ... it was in both of our names but per his request, I got it put into my name only so I can't give it to him now. I am the owner of the loan and it only hits me if I can't pay it


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## sherri1997

I know that I am still in survival mode but I am still not handling this all well at all. I looked through texts today (I know I shouldn't but I keep thinking that this is all my fault) and now that I am looking at ones from over the summer and how cordial he was and how I was trying to tell him how what he was doing was wrong, was I wrong? I would be fine in most of my texts but he was so sure of moving on with this new girl, who I didn't know he was with at the time, and telling me that he hopes that I find happiness one day and sorry it was never with him. I was the one that was firing back the mean things over the summer, after he "gave up" on our marriage b/c he went to the OW#2 ... I was the mean one then and I have no problem admitting it. I was hurt and angry and all he did was rub it in my face that he was moving on ... then I found out about OW#2 and it all made sense on why he was so content with our marriage ending.

I know this is all a broken record in me but I am trying to make sense of it all. He has made me feel like going to court is my fault and that I shouldn't be taking him to court. Is this normal? He seems to have no fear that he might not get what he wants and that he might have to pay me more than he is now. And that non-fear is kind of freaking me out. I don't want to go to court -- I just want this to be over so I can move on. I don't want to ever see him again, but with the pickups and dropsoffs, I don't have a choice. I want to start rebuilding my life but I am always stuck and hurting and not moving forward?

I don't know where i am going with this, I am just upset tonight and needed to get it out. I don't feel like I will ever move forward.


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## Pluto2

Sherri 
Stop that right now, missy. This is not your fault. You did not make him cheat TWICE. You did not make him lie to you. All those text you just read about how sorry he was that he didn't make you happy were lies, he was cheating, deceiving, breaking apart the family. This is all on him. Did you chose to cheat? NO. You respected your marriage and you were fighting for survival. Of course you were upset by his treatment but in no way shape or form did that justify his betrayal. He had a choice and his choice was selfish betrayal.

Now print off the texts and put them away. Print them in case you need them for the divorce, and then get them off the phone. You don't need to keep pouring salt in this wound.

Consider having a set time for phone calls. One or two times during the week when calls will happen. He likes having you at his beck and call and you are not objecting. You should start requiring him to be accountable. This doesn't stop the kids from speaking with their father. It makes sure everyone, including the kids know when the calls will happen and everyone can plan accordingly. If he refuses to abide by the schedule-that is on him. It is not your responsibility. Remember you are no longer his spouse and the relationship he has with his children is his responsibility. Time for him to act like a grown-up.


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## angstire

sherri1997 said:


> Until I see that he is using them to get to me, I will allow it. BUt he is getting really close to that line and once he crossses it and hurts them to satisfy him hurting me, then I won't allow it.
> 
> With the truck ... it was in both of our names but per his request, I got it put into my name only so I can't give it to him now. I am the owner of the loan and it only hits me if I can't pay it


Understand on the truck, get your attorney to finalize the transfer to your name.

He IS using your kids to get at you. Asking to talk to your daughter, so he can find out where you are and show and be a douche canoe is textbook putting your kids in the middle. When he texts you to talk to the kids and you're out, ignore, ignore, ignore. You are under no obligation to do things as soon as he asks. It's admirable that you make it easy for your kids to stay in touch with their dad. You are responsible for making sure he can't abuse that effort to be a d1ck to you.


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## angstire

sherri1997 said:


> And that non-fear is kind of freaking me out. I don't want to go to court


His non-fear is bravado or foolishness. If we were aware, he would be worried about how he is hurting the mother of his kids and the real chance he may lose some access to his kids.

His head is in the fog and probably will be the rest of his life.

Stop worrying about what he thinks. The only person who knows the truth about your behavior is you. I suspect you're being hard on yourself for the summertime texts, etc. Let it go. Deal with the now.

Stop worrying what he is doing or thinks or his guilt. It's not your problem. You have no control over it. And worrying about it is only hurting you; not him. If he isn't ready to accept responsibility for what's he's done and change based on recognizing his guilt, you worrying about it (or worse, saying something about it), won't change him.

It sucks to see him have a happy face about all of this, but it's not real and it isn't helping you. 

What did you do just for you today?


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## sherri1997

angstire said:


> His non-fear is bravado or foolishness. If we were aware, he would be worried about how he is hurting the mother of his kids and the real chance he may lose some access to his kids.
> 
> His head is in the fog and probably will be the rest of his life.
> 
> Stop worrying about what he thinks. The only person who knows the truth about your behavior is you. I suspect you're being hard on yourself for the summertime texts, etc. Let it go. Deal with the now.
> 
> Stop worrying what he is doing or thinks or his guilt. It's not your problem. You have no control over it. And worrying about it is only hurting you; not him. If he isn't ready to accept responsibility for what's he's done and change based on recognizing his guilt, you worrying about it (or worse, saying something about it), won't change him.
> 
> It sucks to see him have a happy face about all of this, but it's not real and it isn't helping you.
> 
> What did you do just for you today?


THanks so much for responding. I am sort of in a daze again ... feeling much like I did when he first left. I don't know how to get out of this cycle of doubts, fear, rejection, crying, ect? I feel like my life is just at a standstill and I am going nowhere. I try to do things to stay busy and it helps but I still have this emptiness. I know I shouldn't worry about what he is doing and I know it doesn't matter what he is doiing. But I have such doubts of why I let the relationship go. I know from the outsiders standpoint, it is easy to see why I should walk away. BUt he is the one that ended it and made me feel like a fool and now that he is happy and moved on, I am the one that is still reeling over everything that happen. 

And then on the other hand, my lawyer isn't responding back to me on the truck and I am getting a bit frustrated over that whole situation. I don't want to keep bothering her but I need to know what is going on and what her thoughts on all of it is? I don't feel like I am on the same page with her and I don't know how to correct that?


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## angstire

Make a list of what you want and meet with her. Have her respond to each item on the list, how feasible it is and what it will require. And get her to commit to working on it for you.


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## sherri1997

angstire said:


> Make a list of what you want and meet with her. Have her respond to each item on the list, how feasible it is and what it will require. And get her to commit to working on it for you.


I did that at the last meeting with her and she got frustrated b/c we had already gone over it all before but things keep changing, so that is why I brought it up. I know she can't give me all the answers b/c some or most is up to a judge but there was no reason to get frustrated with me. When I got home from that appointment, the next day, I sent her an email and went over some of the things that we talked about and no reponse at all from her. THen all of this stuff happen with the truck and I have still not heard back from her. I called the office today and left a message and hope that I hear something back.


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## Pluto2

Sherri, you were in an abusive relationship, and the abuse hasn't stopped. He still manipulates you and the kids and intimidates everyone when he doesn't get immediate results. I am so sorry you are dealing with so much.
What are you able to do just for you? Can you go take a long walk, or meditate? Lunch with friends? Something for you.
And do not worry about nagging your lawyer. She is not doing her job, and you are completely within your rights to require her to go over every item on your list until you are satisfied. If she remains non-responsive to you, take your file to another attorney. People do it all the time.


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## angstire

Pluto2 said:


> Sherri, you were in an abusive relationship, and the abuse hasn't stopped. He still manipulates you and the kids and intimidates everyone when he doesn't get immediate results. I am so sorry you are dealing with so much.
> What are you able to do just for you? Can you go take a long walk, or meditate? Lunch with friends? Something for you.
> And do not worry about nagging your lawyer. She is not doing her job, and you are completely within your rights to require her to go over every item on your list until you are satisfied. If she remains non-responsive to you, take your file to another attorney. People do it all the time.


Agree with Pluto on all points. Focus on a small thing just for you, make this a habit. It will improve your self-worth and get some minutes each day off of HIM. Fire your lawyer, she works for you, she is your employee. He's enjoying being a d1ck to you. Remove this power from him by doing things that are required for you or your kids, not things he wants.


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## sherri1997

angstire said:


> Agree with Pluto on all points. Focus on a small thing just for you, make this a habit. It will improve your self-worth and get some minutes each day off of HIM. Fire your lawyer, she works for you, she is your employee. He's enjoying being a d1ck to you. Remove this power from him by doing things that are required for you or your kids, not things he wants.


I agree with you. I am going to stop the whole letting him talk to the kids anytime he wants and I am going to stop emailing him back and do like he does. However, if I do this, then he won't let me talk to the kids when he has them. Most of the time, I don't talk to the kids when he has them b/c I don't want to call him. But like today, my daughter wasn't feeling well and I called to check on her. She answered the phone and all it did was upset me b/c it was 7pm and they were waiting for it to get dark --- which is way past thier bedtime on a school night. They are in bed with me every night at 1930 and no later b/c of school and routine but when they are with him on three school nights, they are in bed between 2100 and 2200 ... this will be something I talk to my lawyer about again as well. But if I stop letting him call at anytime, then he will stop letting me talk to the kids too when they are with him ... which isn't often and only two full days a week but if one of them aren't feeling well, then I would like the chance to talk with them if I want to.


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## Paradise

sherri1997 said:


> I agree with you. I am going to stop the whole letting him talk to the kids anytime he wants and I am going to stop emailing him back and do like he does. However, if I do this, then he won't let me talk to the kids when he has them. Most of the time, I don't talk to the kids when he has them b/c I don't want to call him. But like today, my daughter wasn't feeling well and I called to check on her. She answered the phone and all it did was upset me b/c it was 7pm and they were waiting for it to get dark --- which is way past thier bedtime on a school night. They are in bed with me every night at 1930 and no later b/c of school and routine but when they are with him on three school nights, they are in bed between 2100 and 2200 ... this will be something I talk to my lawyer about again as well. But if I stop letting him call at anytime, then he will stop letting me talk to the kids too when they are with him ... which isn't often and only two full days a week but if one of them aren't feeling well, then I would like the chance to talk with them if I want to.


Can I offer the other side of this? I haven't read the entire story here and I don't know you so take this with a grain of salt but I don't like it when people don't let a kid talk to the other parent. I know...This is very raw right now, but please be able to put everything aside when it comes to the kids. Yes, it is darn near impossible but please be the bigger person here. Don't put the kids in the middle. 

On the bed time thing...Well, are they getting 8 hours of sleep when they are over there? Are they happy when they are over there? You said it yourself, it is only 2 nights and it sounds like you are an awesome mom and really caring but my kiddo isn't in bed before dark. 8:30 to 9:00 every night we hit the bed on school nights with a book. It is our routine. I have absolutely no idea what my ex does with her. Point is you are going to at some point have to let go of a little bit of control here. It sounds like you are looking for any little thing to go to your lawyer about that you may not agree with. 

Sorry if I'm completely off base here. Looks like your soon to be x is a real piece of work and needs a nice a$$ kicking but you also have to have a level head through this mess. 

Just remember, you can't win a pi$$ing contest against a pr!ck.


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## sherri1997

Paradise said:


> Can I offer the other side of this? I haven't read the entire story here and I don't know you so take this with a grain of salt but I don't like it when people don't let a kid talk to the other parent. I know...This is very raw right now, but please be able to put everything aside when it comes to the kids. Yes, it is darn near impossible but please be the bigger person here. Don't put the kids in the middle.
> 
> On the bed time thing...Well, are they getting 8 hours of sleep when they are over there? Are they happy when they are over there? You said it yourself, it is only 2 nights and it sounds like you are an awesome mom and really caring but my kiddo isn't in bed before dark. 8:30 to 9:00 every night we hit the bed on school nights with a book. It is our routine. I have absolutely no idea what my ex does with her. Point is you are going to at some point have to let go of a little bit of control here. It sounds like you are looking for any little thing to go to your lawyer about that you may not agree with.
> 
> Sorry if I'm completely off base here. Looks like your soon to be x is a real piece of work and needs a nice a$$ kicking but you also have to have a level head through this mess.
> 
> Just remember, you can't win a pi$$ing contest against a pr!ck.


Hey -- thanks for responding and I know you didn't read the whole story so you didn't know that he used calling the kids as a way to see where we were and just show up ... which is not okay to do. I have never kept him from talking to the kids and never wanted to but if he uses that in order to get to me through our kids, then something has to change.

My kids are young and they need a consistant schedule and if they are jumping from each house, then they need the same schedule at both houses. It isn't like he gets them on the weekend and they can do whatever, he has them on school nights and we need to be on the same page with that.

I know I can't control what he does with the kids and I honestly don't question what he does, unless they bring something to my attention that needs to be addressed. 

Again, I know you didn't read the whole post, but if you would have, then you would understand where I am at and why I posted that


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## sherri1997

angstire said:


> Agree with Pluto on all points. Focus on a small thing just for you, make this a habit. It will improve your self-worth and get some minutes each day off of HIM. Fire your lawyer, she works for you, she is your employee. He's enjoying being a d1ck to you. Remove this power from him by doing things that are required for you or your kids, not things he wants.


I agree with you but I can't afford to fire my attorney and hire a new one. I think that when it comes to mediation, which is in the works for setting a date, that she will mention the things that are important and that need to be addressed. I am still on the fence about not letting him talk to the kids unless we have a schedule in place. If he continues to use those opportunities to see what I am up to, then this will have to change. I was used as a ping pong with my parents and I really don't want that to be the case for our kids ... I hope that he doesn't push it to be that way. Only time will tell.

At the end of the day, I just want what is best for the kids. I don't care if he gets away with everything that has happen, that is not my place to pay back any sort of revenge b/c he deserves a relationship with our kids as long as he doesn't use them to get back at me like he has done in the past. I will never use our kids as a tool to hurt him b/c that will only hurt them. I am hoping that with this happening and hopefully us coming to an agreement, that he won't keep playing these games with me and we can both move on to healthier lives for the kids sake. They are the only victims in this and i have to remember that. I have my down days and they are still very often but I have to look out for my kids and I know that he loves them and I can only hope that he will continue to show that to them in healthy ways.


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## sherri1997

Pluto2 said:


> Sherri, you were in an abusive relationship, and the abuse hasn't stopped. He still manipulates you and the kids and intimidates everyone when he doesn't get immediate results. I am so sorry you are dealing with so much.
> What are you able to do just for you? Can you go take a long walk, or meditate? Lunch with friends? Something for you.
> And do not worry about nagging your lawyer. She is not doing her job, and you are completely within your rights to require her to go over every item on your list until you are satisfied. If she remains non-responsive to you, take your file to another attorney. People do it all the time.


THanks so much for responding and sorry I didn't respond before. I am trying to fill my days and my days with the kids with fun, inexpensive things to do like walks or parks, ect. It is a win-win for both myself and the kids to be outside and enjoying each other and friends and this weather. That is what I am focusing on now .. what we can do to move forward together and get better. I am trying to not focus on the small pety stuff that he does to get to me ... it won't ever stop .. this is who he is and always was. But if I take my energy that I am using to focus on him and turn that around to focus on me, then that takes away his ability to manipulate me. My fear is that he will turn that around onto the kids .. like now, he will ask the kids what they had for dinner every night they are with me ... this is so crazy to me. But I can't control it, I can only control my reactions to him.


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## angstire

sherri1997 said:


> But if I stop letting him call at anytime, then he will stop letting me talk to the kids too when they are with him ... which isn't often and only two full days a week but if one of them aren't feeling well, then I would like the chance to talk with them if I want to.


Just set up rules around this. You can talk to them at x time each week and if they're sick they can call you or you call them. Just write it down, get him to approve it or give it to your attorney to include in divorce decree. 

Having rules makes this stuff really easy to follow. The lack of rules is causing issues now.


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## EnjoliWoman

angstire said:


> Just set up rules around this. You can talk to them at x time each week and if they're sick they can call you or you call them. Just write it down, get him to approve it or give it to your attorney to include in divorce decree.
> 
> Having rules makes this stuff really easy to follow. The lack of rules is causing issues now.


Exactly - then you can call THEM at the same time when they are with him. If you know what time he will call, then you can also avoid being out where the kids can mention where you are.

And sorry, but you WILL have to let go of what happens at his house. Yes, kids SHOULD have a consistent schedule. BUT as was mentioned, if they get enough sleep, you can't regulate their bedtimes at his place. You will HAVE to let it go. 

If you have a list of topics and know the Judge is going to have to rule on them, don't waste your attorney's time with them. Besides you pay by the hour and don't want her to. Don't torture yourself with 'what if' questions such as "what if he refuses?" Address that when that happens; no need to waste energy on something like that. She may have depositions, court or any other reason she can't get back to you same day. You'll have her respect and attention if you are firm and succinct.


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## angstire

EnjoliWoman said:


> You'll have her respect and attention if you are firm and succinct.


Yes! This.


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> Exactly - then you can call THEM at the same time when they are with him. If you know what time he will call, then you can also avoid being out where the kids can mention where you are.
> 
> And sorry, but you WILL have to let go of what happens at his house. Yes, kids SHOULD have a consistent schedule. BUT as was mentioned, if they get enough sleep, you can't regulate their bedtimes at his place. You will HAVE to let it go.
> 
> If you have a list of topics and know the Judge is going to have to rule on them, don't waste your attorney's time with them. Besides you pay by the hour and don't want her to. Don't torture yourself with 'what if' questions such as "what if he refuses?" Address that when that happens; no need to waste energy on something like that. She may have depositions, court or any other reason she can't get back to you same day. You'll have her respect and attention if you are firm and succinct.


THanks and I agree with you. I am not at all trying to control what he does with them at his house but they aren't getting enough sleep if they are in bed that late and up early for school. But I am not going to focus on those silly things except to say that they need to have a consistant schedule and they can do this by being in one house and not bouncing like they are now. Again, as I mentioned earlier, they are with him on Monday, with me on Tues, with him on Wed and with me on Thursday. All I am asking for different is to drop that wed and he can add hours on wed until a certain time so they can come home and do homework, ect for school the next day and he can have them anytime his schedule will allow during the day on weekends. I am not trying to take time away from him .. just keeping them at one home during the school week.

As of right now, we are doing mediation on May 29th -- which is my son's 4th birthday too! Hopefully we can nail down the dates for child custody and get that worked out ... everything else that he is trying to lie about, like income and such, we can figure out in court. I just don't want to fight over custody ... him and I know what is best for the kids and I am hopeful that we can reach an agreement through mediation. I am fearful we won't, but like you said, I can't worry about that. I have to trust that we can get through this and figure out the best thing for the kids.


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## sherri1997

So, since i won't respond to him on anything outside of the kids, he is now trying to hold child support over me. He told me he would pay me when he can pay me. We had an agreement that he would pay me every other Sunday and now he is trying to just tell me that as long as it is paid, then I will get it whenever. I am not going to my attorney about this .. I am just letting it go. There is no court order right now for child support so I guess I am lucky that he is giving me anything until the judge rules what he has to give. Fact of the matter is, he is paying me around $600 less then what he will have to pay me based on our child support worksheets. But I have just let him pay me whatever he wants until the court rules otherwise b/c I can't fight him on it or make him pay. This isn't including what he might have to pay in alimony b/c my lawyer has advised that b/c I have always been part-time and b/c of the affair, alimony will most likely be awarded. I was going to just let the alimony go if we could come to some sort of agreement in the child custody and child support but I am not so sure anymore.

He has to have anyway he can to control me. I feel like I am always preparing myself for anything that he might do next. It is getting tiring and I am just ready for it to be over.

He yelled at me for being late on the house payment but I can't help it. Money is tight and if I don't get my bonus, then I am very short on my bills. I have cut things down to nothing so that I can survive and barely make it to my next paycheck. Now that he has decided not to consistant on when he is pyaing me child support, then I have to try and figure out a way to rebudget my finances. All the while, he is not struggling for money at all as his bills are about $1200 less than mine (after he pays child support) and my income is about $1200 short of making my monthly bills. I have to rely on making a bonus, which can be hard to do. If I make my bonus, then I am fine each month, but I didn't make bonus in Dec, Jan or Feb so my house payment was late in Feb and he blew up at me over it and told me to stop partying at bars ... really? I don't remember the last time I was at a bar and he knows I barely drink. I am working as much overtime at work as they will give and that is how I have stayed afloat thus far. I am trying to hold on until they set child support based at what it should be but it is getting harder to do each month. 

Sorry, just had to vent that here b/c I don't want to vent to him about it b/c he loves that I am struggling financially b/c it is one of the reasons that he told me that I shouldn't kick him out after the affair. Arg, this will get better!


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## Paradise

sherri1997 said:


> Hey -- thanks for responding and I know you didn't read the whole story so you didn't know that he used calling the kids as a way to see where we were and just show up ... which is not okay to do. I have never kept him from talking to the kids and never wanted to but if he uses that in order to get to me through our kids, then something has to change.
> 
> My kids are young and they need a consistant schedule and if they are jumping from each house, then they need the same schedule at both houses. It isn't like he gets them on the weekend and they can do whatever, he has them on school nights and we need to be on the same page with that.
> 
> I know I can't control what he does with the kids and I honestly don't question what he does, unless they bring something to my attention that needs to be addressed.
> 
> Again, I know you didn't read the whole post, but if you would have, then you would understand where I am at and why I posted that


You are absolutely right. It is not ok to use the kids like that. I agree 100% with you and I actually did read that post before. I agree with another post that setting a time to call would be the best. You must establish boundaries. Let him gripe all he wants but that is needed. Still don't agree not letting him talk to the kids is a good thing. 

I wish you the best. Hopefully what the mediation and court decides is fair. Seems very seldom it is evenly split up but it also doesn't sound like you two will be able to work through this on your own.


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## sherri1997

Paradise said:


> You are absolutely right. It is not ok to use the kids like that. I agree 100% with you and I actually did read that post before. I agree with another post that setting a time to call would be the best. You must establish boundaries. Let him gripe all he wants but that is needed. Still don't agree not letting him talk to the kids is a good thing.
> 
> I wish you the best. Hopefully what the mediation and court decides is fair. Seems very seldom it is evenly split up but it also doesn't sound like you two will be able to work through this on your own.


You are right. I can honestly say, 100%, that i have done everything that I know how to do in order to try and make this far. I have given him every option that I can think of to try and keep this out of court. I have changed my schedule three times in order to make sure that the kids have me when they need me and not to have to use child care -- I actually just changed my schedule a 4th time in order to allow more time. It is really hard hours on myself b/c I am working at night and get no sleep but this is how life is now and I am not going to complain b/c I have an amazing job. But he has just as much, if not more flexibility to change his schedule and he will not budge on it. He wants the kids on his days off and only his days off and call it 50/50. It just doesn't work that way and it isn't fair for the kids to have a split up week at school ... when they are older and maybe in middle school, it might be okay, but not know when they are laying the foundation of their school.

So, I am left with no other options. He will tell me that he will draw up a proposal but all it is, is the same thing it is now and less money in child support b/c he thinks that he will get away with hiding 30K in his income to a judge. A judge wont' fall for that and I know this and he probably knows this but he thinks that he is above the law b/c he knows retired judges in our community. I am amazed that anyone is telling him to do things this way. He has shown no flexibility in his schedule or life outside of demanding me to change mine, which I have done in order to try and keep this from costing more more money. So, I have to trust the legal system (and that is hard to do) and pray about it and it will all work out. THis will be over soon and we can move forward and move on.

Thanks again for all the advice -- it is really appreciated and helps me see the small things that I am making big deals out of that I need to chill out on. I am trying to do things better and think to myself "if my kids knew 20 years from now how I handled things, would they be proud of me" and I can answer yes to that b/c their best interest is always first.


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## EnjoliWoman

How did he communicate his refusal to pay support? Are you recording him? If not, please squeeze $50 out of the budget for a recorder. Obviously he doesn't understand that the house payment will be late if he doesn't pay child support and that means the kids suffer. They are the ones living on PB&J dinners (example/don't know) and not getting new sandals for summer because he won't pay.

Thanks for the attitude adjustment - mine is supposed to pay on the 1st and 15th every month and it's 4/11 and nothing. He is pretty much a payment in arrears.

As they say, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Can he keep them every day after school? Or does that compromise the only time you have with them? Or maybe Wednesdays he sees them after school, has them for dinner and gets them back before bedtime? Can he get two consecutive days off work? 

Sorry - this may be a two-step process. I tried 50/50 with a 3/4/4/3 schedule and he paid half of daycare while we were in limbo and I would have agreed to that long term except I ran into the same thing with bedtimes, not getting her to pre-K on time (which would be an issue once REAL school started) and he wasn't reading/filling out log. Finally I had to go for full custody so she had continuity during the school week so I understand. But sometimes you have to show you've exhausted all of your options before you go to court.

It's not easy to chill out - it's been 10 years and mine is 15 now and I remember it was hard letting things go. Our family counselor (me/kiddo's) was who helped me realize I could not control anything that happened at his house and unless she was in physical danger, I had to let it go. So I understand and it's a lot to cope with. You have emotions from the divorce, financial struggles, dealing with attorney and ex and still have to be Mom. But you will reconcile your feelings and these issues and it will get much better, it just takes some time. And a good attorney!


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> How did he communicate his refusal to pay support? Are you recording him? If not, please squeeze $50 out of the budget for a recorder. Obviously he doesn't understand that the house payment will be late if he doesn't pay child support and that means the kids suffer. They are the ones living on PB&J dinners (example/don't know) and not getting new sandals for summer because he won't pay.
> 
> Thanks for the attitude adjustment - mine is supposed to pay on the 1st and 15th every month and it's 4/11 and nothing. He is pretty much a payment in arrears.
> 
> As they say, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Can he keep them every day after school? Or does that compromise the only time you have with them? Or maybe Wednesdays he sees them after school, has them for dinner and gets them back before bedtime? Can he get two consecutive days off work?
> 
> Sorry - this may be a two-step process. I tried 50/50 with a 3/4/4/3 schedule and he paid half of daycare while we were in limbo and I would have agreed to that long term except I ran into the same thing with bedtimes, not getting her to pre-K on time (which would be an issue once REAL school started) and he wasn't reading/filling out log. Finally I had to go for full custody so she had continuity during the school week so I understand. But sometimes you have to show you've exhausted all of your options before you go to court.
> 
> It's not easy to chill out - it's been 10 years and mine is 15 now and I remember it was hard letting things go. Our family counselor (me/kiddo's) was who helped me realize I could not control anything that happened at his house and unless she was in physical danger, I had to let it go. So I understand and it's a lot to cope with. You have emotions from the divorce, financial struggles, dealing with attorney and ex and still have to be Mom. But you will reconcile your feelings and these issues and it will get much better, it just takes some time. And a good attorney!


Hey there and thanks for responding. I do record all of our phone calls but this recent one about child support is on email. He told me in the last email that he worked his butt off for the kids and that he would get me the child support when he could. So, I responded and told him thanks for all the hard work he does for our kids and to just keep me up to date on when he could pay me so that I could make the house payment. I was really nice and maybe that will help defuse the situation?

I have tried every situation that I can think of for the custody but he refuses to budge on anything that involves him changing his schedule. He will fill out the homework portion of my daughters papers from school but then when I ask my daughter what they covered in homework so that I can start from where he stopped, she will tell me that they didn't do any homework the night before when he has it written down that they did. THis is the main reason why I want them with me through the week. I have backed down from the monday night with me b/c Monday is his only day off work and I get that and I will work with him on one night a week. He refuses to change his schedule to have two days off in a row. When we originally went to mediation for custody (without our lawyers that is required by the state) we agreed to everything but then he went back to his lawyer and his lawyer told him to not sign the final papers b/c he would be paying more money in child support. So, now we are going to mediation with our lawyers present and maybe we can figure something out. At this point, I am willing to try and work with him on a figure that is between the two worksheets that our state goes off of in order to see if he will agree to let the kids be with me during the week b/c I think this isn't about him wanting to really be with the kids and more about how much he is going to have to pay me. It is a control thing for him and I have to compromise in order to get this final so we can move forward. I am willing to do that as long as I can make my bills and the kids are where they need to be. If we can figure out the custody thing then my lawyer can do the rest in court with proving his income.


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## sherri1997

I can feel big changes coming for me. I am trying to retrain my way of thinking from the victim role into the survival mode. I can sit around all day and think of everything that he did wrong but who does that hurt ... it hurts me, not him. He doesn't care and never will. The emotions are still so raw and although it has almost been a year since he left me for OW#2, I have to let it go. I went to bed last night and was looking forward to this new way of thinking but woke up this morning and was back to where I was but quickly thought that I have to change the way I think every minute and hopefully it will become natural for me. This is a hard process but the only way to move forward is to move forward without holding all these grudges. I hate this life and this is not the life that I wanted but I am the only one that can change that. I am trying and praying that I can do this ... it is so hard sometimes b/c there are so many triggers of the past ... but I hope I can do this and take it minute by minute.


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## Pluto2

You are absolutely right, this is hard. But it sounds like you are making all the decisions to change your mind set. It is a slow and grueling process but so worth the effort. You will start waking up and looking forward to the day. Soon you will know how strong you really are.


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## sherri1997

Pluto2 said:


> You are absolutely right, this is hard. But it sounds like you are making all the decisions to change your mind set. It is a slow and grueling process but so worth the effort. You will start waking up and looking forward to the day. Soon you will know how strong you really are.


I really hope so. I am trying to retrain my thoughts but it is very hard to get off of the whole what he did thing but that only gives him power, right? And he doesn't deservemy grief anymore and I am not going to be a victim the rest of my life. I don't know how to make my life better b/c I always thought I would be married, but it is only me that can change that. I want to change for myself and for my kids. They deserve to have me happy and healthy!


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## sherri1997

So, he calls me this morning and leaves me a VM about getting a copy of our tax retruns fromlast year. I dont' know if I should give it to him? Everything that I have needed from him, he has sent me to his lawyer ... why should I be nice and give this to him, just so that he doesn't have to pay his lawyer to request it? I have always bent over backwards to give him everything that he needs, when he needs it but when I need something simple, he makes me contact my lawyer. Would that make me be the unfair one if I simply don't do what he needs when he needs it?


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## Pluto2

Why does he need it? Is this so he can prepare for the mediation? If so, that's what his attorney is for. He signed the return, he can request a copy from the IRS. You are not his personal assistant.


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## sherri1997

Pluto2 said:


> Why does he need it? Is this so he can prepare for the mediation? If so, that's what his attorney is for. He signed the return, he can request a copy from the IRS. You are not his personal assistant.


He said it was for doing his taxes this year. I have looked through my taxes to see if I have a copy from last year and I would have to pay for it and didn't print out a copy so I am just not going to respond. If I had it, then I would give it to him to keep the peace but I doubt he needs it for that reason, b/c I didn't need it for that reason when I did my taxes this year. I am sure that he needs it for his lawyer and I am not going to go out of my way to give this to him when I would have to pay for it. He keeps calling but I am at work so I am letting it go to VM.


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## EnjoliWoman

I needed to reference my old tax return. If I claimed X on line ___ last year... and then the whole worksheet to see what I put on that line this year...

But I would just tell him you don't have it, you checked and suggest he request one from the IRS.


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> I needed to reference my old tax return. If I claimed X on line ___ last year... and then the whole worksheet to see what I put on that line this year...
> 
> But I would just tell him you don't have it, you checked and suggest he request one from the IRS.


Well, here is a sneak peak into the jacka$$ that he is. He was requesting this and I told him it would cost money to get a copy b/c I used Tax Act .. he got all pissed off about it and I thought, I am going to do the right thing b/c I always did the taxes and I paid for the copy ($14) and sent it to him. He then sent back " I ended up not needing it b/c I have a friend at work that is going to get all the information that I need, so nevermind" I told him that he could have told me that all before I paid for it and he sent back "thank-you". This is the crap that he does and everytime I get played a fool b/c I am trying to be nice. HE is such a jack butt ... no more from me. I will be nice and cordial when it comes to the kids but anything else, he can request through his lawyer. Seeing how tax day is in three days, I didn't want to cause that drama over that but I learned my lesson. He knew I was going to pay for it and then told me nevermind ... these are the buttons that he pushes to get to me. But instead of being mad about it all day, I let it go. I can't control what he does. I can control myself and I am not playing games with him. I am being nice and trying to keep the peace and if he wants to play the game, then let him .. years down the road, I can look back and know that I wasn't spiteful or vengeful and be proud of that.


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## Pluto2

Stop being so nice. You get no credit from him for trying to be nice, and this is aggravation you are causing yourself. 
It made sense to you to act that when you are married and in an abusive relationship because you were willing to do anything to try to avoid the drama. I walked on eggshells with my ex for a solid three years. It is exhausting. You spend you days trying to anticipate what will or won't set him off. Sometimes you guess correctly and the situation is diffused. Sometimes you don't and you feel horrible and resentful that you get no credit for your efforts. Either way you are being abused and it is exhausting.

Remember that relationship is at an end. If he needs something let him get it. You are not his secretary or his personal assistant anymore. When he gets pissy (and he will) tell him you are no longer willing to be spoken to that way. Or tell him that is no longer your responsibility.

He's pushing your buttons because you are permitting it. You know this, now work to stop. It is terrifying to do this but you will be happier when you create the boundaries for your happiness and protection.


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## EnjoliWoman

I half agree with Pluto. You can be 'nice' (which is really just polite) which keeps you from looking like a stubborn ass and promotes your reputation with the courts as reasonable and level-headed. Once you get past that, chilly-polite is all that is required and sometimes not even that but should only stoop to "ignore". Your range with him should only go from polite to indifference, in other words.

BTW - if you have all kinds of evidence about his being an ass, inconsiderate, lying, manipulative, etc., here is what my attorney did. There was just SO MUCH evidence, whether anecdotal, email, documents from school/gym/daycare, counselor (tho limited due to confidentiality), photos/cards and schoolwork that she said we just can't enter it all - it would bog down the judge, be overwhelming and overkill. So she broke it down into several categories and had me assemble the strongest examples of each problematic area to enter into evidence. Even tho you aren't going to court it might not hurt to be prepared so your attorney can point some of these out at mediation because HIS attorney will reason with him.

For instance:
Negative effects of current schedule on children
- fall asleep in school (email from teacher)
- homework is checked off yet child says it wasn't done and doesn't have grasp of topic (quiz where subject was not grasped)

Putting children in the middle (i.e. emotional abuse)
- using children to tell where they will be to be invasive during your parenting time (phone records followed by appearance)
- encouraging children to take sides on parenting issues such as email where he says "the kids want to do _____"

Lack of willingness to compromise/things showing you are
- refusing to change schedule even tho you have accommodated his requests and changed 6 times (emails/journal)

Verbal abuse
- Emails showing name calling, veiled threats, etc.

Unwilling to financially support children adequately
- email about no support (which can also go under abuse)
- emails about mortgage + past due notices
- any information about special stuff kids are in - i.e. karate with fee schedule. 
- copies of banking information to support everything

And of course the basics about the years married, how long you worked during that time, how long he worked, who provided health insurance, etc. 

ETC.

Step back and go with the 30,000 ft view. You may have 20 examples or more of each thing but try to categorize into main issues that are impactful more than just annoying. Focus on the impact to the kids, your financial settlement, etc - the big stuff. Use folders, envelopes or some form of organization to put the examples in each folder with the most important on the top. That way when you meet with your attorney you can go through each quickly and she'll stop when you get to a point where she says "that will be plenty". Or you can do a quick phone consult about this to make sure the categories are legally relevant.

Not only will you be prepared, but it will cost less if your attorney doesn't have to do this for you, you will feel empowered and confident, you will start approaching things more logically and less emotionally.

Sorry if this is long. I just remember what was most helpful to me.

ETA - you can get free paper boxes from Office Max/Office Depot/Staples from their copy/printing department and these make great legal boxes.


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> I half agree with Pluto. You can be 'nice' (which is really just polite) which keeps you from looking like a stubborn ass and promotes your reputation with the courts as reasonable and level-headed. Once you get past that, chilly-polite is all that is required and sometimes not even that but should only stoop to "ignore". Your range with him should only go from polite to indifference, in other words.
> 
> BTW - if you have all kinds of evidence about his being an ass, inconsiderate, lying, manipulative, etc., here is what my attorney did. There was just SO MUCH evidence, whether anecdotal, email, documents from school/gym/daycare, counselor (tho limited due to confidentiality), photos/cards and schoolwork that she said we just can't enter it all - it would bog down the judge, be overwhelming and overkill. So she broke it down into several categories and had me assemble the strongest examples of each problematic area to enter into evidence. Even tho you aren't going to court it might not hurt to be prepared so your attorney can point some of these out at mediation because HIS attorney will reason with him.
> 
> For instance:
> Negative effects of current schedule on children
> - fall asleep in school (email from teacher)
> - homework is checked off yet child says it wasn't done and doesn't have grasp of topic (quiz where subject was not grasped)
> 
> Putting children in the middle (i.e. emotional abuse)
> - using children to tell where they will be to be invasive during your parenting time (phone records followed by appearance)
> - encouraging children to take sides on parenting issues such as email where he says "the kids want to do _____"
> 
> Lack of willingness to compromise/things showing you are
> - refusing to change schedule even tho you have accommodated his requests and changed 6 times (emails/journal)
> 
> Verbal abuse
> - Emails showing name calling, veiled threats, etc.
> 
> Unwilling to financially support children adequately
> - email about no support (which can also go under abuse)
> - emails about mortgage + past due notices
> - any information about special stuff kids are in - i.e. karate with fee schedule.
> - copies of banking information to support everything
> 
> And of course the basics about the years married, how long you worked during that time, how long he worked, who provided health insurance, etc.
> 
> ETC.
> 
> Step back and go with the 30,000 ft view. You may have 20 examples or more of each thing but try to categorize into main issues that are impactful more than just annoying. Focus on the impact to the kids, your financial settlement, etc - the big stuff. Use folders, envelopes or some form of organization to put the examples in each folder with the most important on the top. That way when you meet with your attorney you can go through each quickly and she'll stop when you get to a point where she says "that will be plenty". Or you can do a quick phone consult about this to make sure the categories are legally relevant.
> 
> Not only will you be prepared, but it will cost less if your attorney doesn't have to do this for you, you will feel empowered and confident, you will start approaching things more logically and less emotionally.
> 
> Sorry if this is long. I just remember what was most helpful to me.
> 
> ETA - you can get free paper boxes from Office Max/Office Depot/Staples from their copy/printing department and these make great legal boxes.



It is great that you brought all this up b/c as I was in the shower this morning, I was thinking about getting just this together for my lawyer and only bring into play what is most important and the facts to back it up! I have TONS of things under each of those categories but only some that will provide the most bang. She told me that we can't use anything in email or text as a verbal agreement, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me b/c how can you show a verbal agreement -- which is why I did the email verbal things but I will have all of this outlined and in a folder. She has loved what I have done on the financial end of things b/c I have the past three years broken down into each month and then broken down further to show cost of living under catergories like food, bills, mortgage, gas, ect ... this has shown a huge impact to her.

I have to run now but I will respond more later -- kids and I have a fun filled day ahead! Hope everyone has a great day and I will write more later.


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## sherri1997

So, since the kids and I would be more than an hour away today, I decided to let the EX know. I don't do this b/c of any reason that is in agreement, but b/c they are his kids and he needs to know where they are if we are away from home. But I will be darned if everytime I do this, he comes up with some reason to bother me.

I have asked him several times to not text me now that he has my new cell number (remember he got this number from my mortgage company after not having it since October) and he starts calling. He called me 6X. Granted, I told him we would be out of town at a friends house for a picnic and riding 4-wheelers (which we do a lot during the summer and he is okay with where we go .. this isn't something new that we started doing). HE called me 6x in a row, but I didn't have my phone on me -- it was in my truck. Then he texts me, then when I finally get the phone, I don't respond to him. He then sends an email about being with his CPA and that they needed a copy of my current years tax forms and to not make this hard on him and make him go through his lawyer to request this.

I have two degrees .. one in accounting and one in finance. There is no reason that I can think of that he would need my tax return this year b/c I filled apart from him. I told him that I dont feel comfortable giving him this information and he wrote back that he is going to go to his lawyer first thing on Monday and request this. Can he do that? Since we lived the whole year of 2013 apart .. why would he need this info? I claimed both kids and he already knew this b/c he isn't paying the correct amount in child support and I cover their preschool costs, after school cost and their insurance and he pays zero, outside of the small amount that he has decided to give me in child support until he is ordered by the court to pay whatever he will have to pay. Why in the world would he need my tax info?

At one point, he called and my son was playing with my phone and answered it and then my girlfriend took the phone b/c I was out with my daughter on the 4-wheeler and my girlfriend told him (nicely) that I was out and she was with my son while we took turns on the 4-wheeler and he was sweet as could be to my girlfriend. 

Just seeems that everytime he knows we are out, he does something or comes up with something to have to bother me about. But I didn't let it ruin the day, we had a great day!

But I do worry about him being here tomorrow afternoon to get the kids b/c I know he won't give me child support now b/c I won't give him what he needs and he will be a jerk tomorrow. I am considering letting my girlfriend come to just be here so that he won't act out. He hasn't been physical with me, but the emotional crap he will pull before I have to go into work always gets to me. He does it almost every Sunday he gets them. Some side remark or anything to get me upset.


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## Pluto2

Sounds like he wants your financials to fight child support.
You opened the door for the abuse. I understand you want to tell the father of your children where they are, but you are giving him an invitation to behave this way. A normal father would not have called and texted you so much. You do not have a normal father there. You told him you and the kids were out having fun and he wanted to stop it. It is all control with him and you can't "nice" him out of it.

In lots of divorces with child custody issues, the final agreement/order states that one parent must give the other notice if you leave the state. You do not have to give notice of a day trip. Why did you? I think its because you are so used to demanding the control. 
Regardless of the invasion, I hope you and the kids had fun.


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## sherri1997

Pluto2 said:


> Sounds like he wants your financials to fight child support.
> You opened the door for the abuse. I understand you want to tell the father of your children where they are, but you are giving him an invitation to behave this way. A normal father would not have called and texted you so much. You do not have a normal father there. You told him you and the kids were out having fun and he wanted to stop it. It is all control with him and you can't "nice" him out of it.
> 
> In lots of divorces with child custody issues, the final agreement/order states that one parent must give the other notice if you leave the state. You do not have to give notice of a day trip. Why did you? I think its because you are so used to demanding the control.
> Regardless of the invasion, I hope you and the kids had fun.


I agree with you 100%. I am still scared of him .. not in the physical sense but for whatever reason, I am still scared of him. I can't describe the how or why but I know that I am. 

He came and got the kids and I was shaking b/c I was scared. It is so stupid and something that I will bring up in IC this week. He did have valid questions that he asked me about the taxes as far as if I claimed the house property taxes and how if I filed HOH or Married, ect. I answered them but still didn't give him a copy of my taxes.

There is a lot that I am realizing that I need to focus on for myself. I am going to try and start but it seems that when I do, I get kicked again. I don't know when to expect that to stop or how to stop it? I don't even know if my EX realizes that he does it? 

And you are right about not having to tell him about being away. I am not sure why I do it, I just always have since we separated?


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## Pluto2

You are not stupid. You are extremely smart. Remember you have been smart enough to survive in an abusive relationship.
I know the fear. I had it too.
Recognizing that it is fear and that it is not fear of physical retaliation is huge. Hopefully your IC can help you break the cycle.


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## angstire

Sherri, 

If he wants any documents from you, he can ask through his attorney. He's proved he won't be nice or respectful when he does this, so make him go through attorneys. This is not cheap unfortunately, but if he can't play nice to avoid the legal fees, then he has to go through the attorneys. If your attorney says you have to send it, send it. It's too bad if it will be used to lessen his CS, but if it's legally required to send it, try not to worry about that. You can't do anything about it anyway.

If you are more comfortable if there is an adult witness there (your gf), ask her to be there for the exchanges. She will support you, who cares what he thinks and you'll be more at ease. Good for you.

Expedite this divorce and settlement, so the CS issues are encased in a divorce decree. I'm not saying you're dragging your feet, but do what you can to get this done. Forward momentum will feel good because you will see the destination. All of this nebulous chaos with so many What Ifs is stressful for you. Do what you can to end the stress by seeing the goal and moving towards it, day by day.

What did you do for you today? Glass of wine before bed with the TV off? Indulge in 30 minutes of reality TV? Cup of coffee this morning? Short run on the treadmill? New sundress for the coming of summer? What did you do for you today?

Take care.


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## EnjoliWoman

That's why I had to put a post-it up by the house phone that said "do not engage!" Write that down, take a pic and use it as your phone background!

My agreement only says that we have to inform the other parent if we take her out of state OVERNIGHT. So a day trip anywhere is OK and you do not owe him an itinerary. Do you think he will ever tell YOU? When your kids are with you, turn off the phone. Don't let him interrupt your day at all. He has no need to know what you are doing or when you are doing it. He needs to know if you are going out of state overnight, he needs to know if there is an emergency issue with one of the kids or a school issue. That is all.

I can see certain info being needed but it can wait until a business day - that was a Saturday, correct? He isn't meeting with his CPA or attorney on Saturday.


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## sherri1997

angstire said:


> Sherri,
> 
> If he wants any documents from you, he can ask through his attorney. He's proved he won't be nice or respectful when he does this, so make him go through attorneys. This is not cheap unfortunately, but if he can't play nice to avoid the legal fees, then he has to go through the attorneys. If your attorney says you have to send it, send it. It's too bad if it will be used to lessen his CS, but if it's legally required to send it, try not to worry about that. You can't do anything about it anyway.
> 
> If you are more comfortable if there is an adult witness there (your gf), ask her to be there for the exchanges. She will support you, who cares what he thinks and you'll be more at ease. Good for you.
> 
> Expedite this divorce and settlement, so the CS issues are encased in a divorce decree. I'm not saying you're dragging your feet, but do what you can to get this done. Forward momentum will feel good because you will see the destination. All of this nebulous chaos with so many What Ifs is stressful for you. Do what you can to end the stress by seeing the goal and moving towards it, day by day.
> 
> What did you do for you today? Glass of wine before bed with the TV off? Indulge in 30 minutes of reality TV? Cup of coffee this morning? Short run on the treadmill? New sundress for the coming of summer? What did you do for you today?
> 
> Take care.


Thanks so much! I actually had a friend that is a guy over yesterday when he picked up the kids. Now, the EX knows that this guy is just a friend, but it stopped him from doing anything to me while we did the exchange. I will try to have someone here with me when he comes until this is all over. He ended up only needing how I filed this year for the taxes this year so I gave that to him, but I am still waiting for my child support check that he gives me every other Sunday ... guess he will use this to control me now.

The divorce was final and signed by a judge today. I thought it was done on the 19th, but got a paper today that said his lawyer was going to a judge today to get it signed so it is officially over. Now, I just wait for mediation and am working on all the paperwork now for it. I am only getting paperwork that is on the summons .. so all the points on the summons is addressed and I will see what my lawyer needs and what she doesn't need from that point.

Today, I did tons of things. I FINALLY got the truck out of his name and into my name at the DMV .. I was dreading this, but it ended up going very smooth and the guy was awesome at the DMV b/c he didn't get all technical on everything like I was expecting. Then I hung up some things in my garage. This has been amazing for me. I have gutted the garage and everything is in order, clean, new painted walls and clean for once ... I finished today by hanging things up on the walls like the kids bikes and such ... my EX made a comment that I have the house on lockdown when he comes and I do this on purpose. He doesn't deserve to see the house anymore. He doesn't deserve to even see into my front door when he picks the kids up .. and his beloved garage is now clean and my garage .. it is a nice feeling! But sundress is for sure next ... I am loving this weather!


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> That's why I had to put a post-it up by the house phone that said "do not engage!" Write that down, take a pic and use it as your phone background!
> 
> My agreement only says that we have to inform the other parent if we take her out of state OVERNIGHT. So a day trip anywhere is OK and you do not owe him an itinerary. Do you think he will ever tell YOU? When your kids are with you, turn off the phone. Don't let him interrupt your day at all. He has no need to know what you are doing or when you are doing it. He needs to know if you are going out of state overnight, he needs to know if there is an emergency issue with one of the kids or a school issue. That is all.
> 
> I can see certain info being needed but it can wait until a business day - that was a Saturday, correct? He isn't meeting with his CPA or attorney on Saturday.


That was what was so funny to me .. he doesn't need an accountant to do his taxes. He likes to talk big, like he has all these important people that do things for him .. but he is just a bartender .. he could do his own taxes but whatever. He likes to think he is bigger than he is .. always has done this and always will.

I agree with no more telling him what we are doing. I have always done it if we are traveling out of town, even for the day, but I am done with letting him ruin the day. I have stopped having my phone by my side and if he calls or emails or anything, then I ignore it. I will start to do this more often now b/c it just takes weight off of my shoulders with it all.


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## sherri1997

Pluto2 said:


> You are not stupid. You are extremely smart. Remember you have been smart enough to survive in an abusive relationship.
> I know the fear. I had it too.
> Recognizing that it is fear and that it is not fear of physical retaliation is huge. Hopefully your IC can help you break the cycle.


Is it normal to always think that I am to blame for everything? I don't feel like I was abused but I am starting to question it? I looked back over the emails when I was gathering things for evidence and he is all nice and cordial until he doesn't get his way .. and then he goes into how "crazy" I am or how "I need to just get over it b/c we are done" or "how I need to stop using the kids as control over him" all of these things are said when I stand up for myself. I was seeing it as him thinking that I was actually doing this but looking back over the emails, I can sort of see that maybe it isn't all me? But then I go back to questioning it again and I don't understand why? The last time he did this was when I was questioning him on having his GF stay the night before we were divorced and while the kids where with him. He knows how I feel about this and the reaction from our two small kids but he blew up at me and told me that I can't control him and that it is my fault the kids are upset b/c of what I am doing, ect ... it just all gets so confusing to me?


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## angstire

sherri1997 said:


> Thanks so much! I actually had a friend that is a guy over yesterday when he picked up the kids. Now, the EX knows that this guy is just a friend, but it stopped him from doing anything to me while we did the exchange. I will try to have someone here with me when he comes until this is all over. He ended up only needing how I filed this year for the taxes this year so I gave that to him, but I am still waiting for my child support check that he gives me every other Sunday ... guess he will use this to control me now.
> 
> The divorce was final and signed by a judge today. I thought it was done on the 19th, but got a paper today that said his lawyer was going to a judge today to get it signed so it is officially over. Now, I just wait for mediation and am working on all the paperwork now for it. I am only getting paperwork that is on the summons .. so all the points on the summons is addressed and I will see what my lawyer needs and what she doesn't need from that point.
> 
> Today, I did tons of things. I FINALLY got the truck out of his name and into my name at the DMV .. I was dreading this, but it ended up going very smooth and the guy was awesome at the DMV b/c he didn't get all technical on everything like I was expecting. Then I hung up some things in my garage. This has been amazing for me. I have gutted the garage and everything is in order, clean, new painted walls and clean for once ... I finished today by hanging things up on the walls like the kids bikes and such ... my EX made a comment that I have the house on lockdown when he comes and I do this on purpose. He doesn't deserve to see the house anymore. He doesn't deserve to even see into my front door when he picks the kids up .. and his beloved garage is now clean and my garage .. it is a nice feeling! But sundress is for sure next ... I am loving this weather!


Great that you got so much done in the last little bit. Nice!

Great that you're focusing on things to control Sherri's life. Nice again!


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## EnjoliWoman

sherri1997 said:


> Is it normal to always think that I am to blame for everything? I don't feel like I was abused but I am starting to question it? I looked back over the emails when I was gathering things for evidence and he is all nice and cordial until he doesn't get his way .. and then he goes into how "crazy" I am or how "I need to just get over it b/c we are done" or "how I need to stop using the kids as control over him" all of these things are said when I stand up for myself. I was seeing it as him thinking that I was actually doing this but looking back over the emails, I can sort of see that maybe it isn't all me? But then I go back to questioning it again and I don't understand why? The last time he did this was when I was questioning him on having his GF stay the night before we were divorced and while the kids where with him. He knows how I feel about this and the reaction from our two small kids but he blew up at me and told me that I can't control him and that it is my fault the kids are upset b/c of what I am doing, ect ... it just all gets so confusing to me?


It's called gaslighting. My ex was diagnosed narcissistic personality disorder and he would tell me things I agreed to that I didn't recall, or say he'd asked me to pick something up at the store when he didn't or just to hold a post in the yard for a fence, etc. and would end up screaming at me "Why don't you every listen? are you stupid? Don't be a dumbass! Answer me!!!"

Hitting is obvious but he didn't do it all of the time but would when he got very frustrated so I was always terrified at giving the 'wrong' answer. But the book that really helped me look at his abusive nature was "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans. All of those little needling comments add up and are very hurtful - or certainly were to me and my self esteem. 

No way would I tolerate such language now. But back then it was my normal. It destroys ones' confidence and made me second guess everything I did. You can get them used on Amazon cheap. It will open your eyes to verbal abuse and manipulation.


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> It's called gaslighting. My ex was diagnosed narcissistic personality disorder and he would tell me things I agreed to that I didn't recall, or say he'd asked me to pick something up at the store when he didn't or just to hold a post in the yard for a fence, etc. and would end up screaming at me "Why don't you every listen? are you stupid? Don't be a dumbass! Answer me!!!"
> 
> Hitting is obvious but he didn't do it all of the time but would when he got very frustrated so I was always terrified at giving the 'wrong' answer. But the book that really helped me look at his abusive nature was "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans. All of those little needling comments add up and are very hurtful - or certainly were to me and my self esteem.
> 
> No way would I tolerate such language now. But back then it was my normal. It destroys ones' confidence and made me second guess everything I did. You can get them used on Amazon cheap. It will open your eyes to verbal abuse and manipulation.


See my EX wasn't so obvious with it. He never called me stupid while we were married or did obvious cutdowns like that. He would use little hints at it and say things like "I was more fun when I was drunk" or make fun of me when I was around people by calling me "the fun police". He didn't start the major things until we separated and he wasn't getting his way. Now he has said things like "I never knew how to take care of a man" or that "I was going to turn out like my mother" These are the things that make me doubt myself now in any new relationship.


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## EnjoliWoman

He's just bitter. He wants to hurt you and the one of those ways is with words. He was the life of the party, you were the one with a sense of responsibility. 

Ditto. I can have lots of fun - laugh, drink, dance, happy banter with friends... but there is still laundry, and grass to mow, and a house to clean and children to care for the next day. So yeah, someone has to be. They don't raise themselves.

I always got "you're just like my ex wife" (i was wife #2), "you're no fun". Yeah, sorry but I don't have clean underwear and it's been 10 days since I did laundry because he wanted to take the boat out from sunrise to sunset 2 days in a row AND I'm the one who has to plan 3 meals plus snacks, plus pull-ups, change of clothes, blanket and determine where/when/how a toddler is going to nap on a boat.

I have since learned that MOST people have a responsible side and would put the toddler first, not their own childish desires to spend all day on a boat drinking beer. One day is fun - a LOT of fun! Two days means there is NO time to get anything done when one has an 8-5 job. Heck, even one and a HALF days. And then I was criticized for not back down the boat ramp right first go, or forgetting to empty the on-board cooler. Nah - staying home is less hassle and criticism. He sucked the fun out of it because HE was the only one having fun at the end of it all.


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## EnjoliWoman

Sorry - didn't mean to turn this into my rant. Brought back some memories. 

Just keep reminding yourself that HE may think that, but look at his standards. You are way better than any of that and he just can't see it.


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> He's just bitter. He wants to hurt you and the one of those ways is with words. He was the life of the party, you were the one with a sense of responsibility.
> 
> Ditto. I can have lots of fun - laugh, drink, dance, happy banter with friends... but there is still laundry, and grass to mow, and a house to clean and children to care for the next day. So yeah, someone has to be. They don't raise themselves.
> 
> I always got "you're just like my ex wife" (i was wife #2), "you're no fun". Yeah, sorry but I don't have clean underwear and it's been 10 days since I did laundry because he wanted to take the boat out from sunrise to sunset 2 days in a row AND I'm the one who has to plan 3 meals plus snacks, plus pull-ups, change of clothes, blanket and determine where/when/how a toddler is going to nap on a boat.
> 
> I have since learned that MOST people have a responsible side and would put the toddler first, not their own childish desires to spend all day on a boat drinking beer. One day is fun - a LOT of fun! Two days means there is NO time to get anything done when one has an 8-5 job. Heck, even one and a HALF days. And then I was criticized for not back down the boat ramp right first go, or forgetting to empty the on-board cooler. Nah - staying home is less hassle and criticism. He sucked the fun out of it because HE was the only one having fun at the end of it all.


I can so relate here. He lived a "vegas lifestyle" according to our marriage counselor, that I still see. He won't see him anymore b/c of course, he didn't want to take any responsibility. But my EX always wanted to have fun. Don't get me wrong, he is a great dad now that he has to be. I am not sure if it is a show or not?

I didn't hear anything from him much today. He texted me again and I am over telling him not too. I sent him an email last night for the kids things that needed to be done for school to make sure that he sent them with them this morning and asked about the child support check. He texted me back that I could come get it tomorrow, which I am not going to do. Or he could bring it to me on Thurday but on THursday now, I am going to have him drop my son off at my sitters and then walk down and get him once he leaves. The less conversation that I have with him, the better. I am done with these drop offs b/c he brings me down when he is around and the less I see him, the better.

I am suspecting that he will start something, anything with me now that he questions if I am actually dating someone. He knows I have been dating, but didn't know if I was actually getting serious with someone. I am not serious with anyone but this friend of mine that was here on Sunday, has been in my life since this summer as a support system and my EX actually did a background check on him when he saw him added to my friends list .. my EX is no longer on my FB and blacked, btw, lol. But I suspect he doesn't like this at all and will come back at me or act all sad now. I have to realize this isn't b/c he regrets anything but b/c he wants that control and even this guy that met my EX is just a friend, he will not tolerate in anyway my EX being disrespectful in front of me and has told me that he will kindly tell my EX to leave me alone if it comes down to that. It makes me feel better to know someone is there for me to finally help me or stand up to me when I can't do it on my own.


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## EnjoliWoman

I realize this is somewhat enabling but if it gives you peace... eh. Can you provide him with some stamped, pre-addressed envelopes? Just have him mail it. It will get to you next day very likely. Oh, and get a PO box so he can't go through your mailbox and jerk you around by taking it.

He could add you as a payee to his online banking and the bank will mail a check. Point is, you don't want to see him, not even for a check and why should you? Ex liked kiddo knowing he paid me. He would put it in her overnight bag. He even TOLD her to make sure I get it. He also told her it was for toys and whatever she wanted. I asked if she wanted a bath in warm water instead of cold and did she want dinner? Then I explained that because I buy EVERYTHING for her, Dad reimburses me for his half. So finally I insisted he pay through the state support agency. He refused for a whole year and would mail them. Now he sends them nearly a payment behind - probably just because I made him do it that way.


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> I realize this is somewhat enabling but if it gives you peace... eh. Can you provide him with some stamped, pre-addressed envelopes? Just have him mail it. It will get to you next day very likely. Oh, and get a PO box so he can't go through your mailbox and jerk you around by taking it.
> 
> He could add you as a payee to his online banking and the bank will mail a check. Point is, you don't want to see him, not even for a check and why should you? Ex liked kiddo knowing he paid me. He would put it in her overnight bag. He even TOLD her to make sure I get it. He also told her it was for toys and whatever she wanted. I asked if she wanted a bath in warm water instead of cold and did she want dinner? Then I explained that because I buy EVERYTHING for her, Dad reimburses me for his half. So finally I insisted he pay through the state support agency. He refused for a whole year and would mail them. Now he sends them nearly a payment behind - probably just because I made him do it that way.


I suspect that my EX will do the same once I request that he does things through the state b/c I am not going to sit around and wait for child support once it is ordered by the state. As far as I know, my EX has only said once that he didn't have money b/c he gave mommy all his money to our kids but I am not aware of anything else. Doing the self addressed envelopes is a good idea to a PO Box ... a really good idea that I might start. 

He just sent me another text .. three actually of my daughter's progress report. Told me that he is just seeing the first of these and that I shoudl have the same decency as he does to provide me a copy of it. Um, if he looked in the folder that we have for her .. that he is supposed to update with me like I have been doing so that we are on the same page with her school work, he would see that I have a copy of the three prior ones but I am not going to even respond. What is the point? I have asked him not to text me and email me only but you see how well that works for me.

Things are calm right now, which always worries me. I am not responding to him. I have emailed him twice where he hasn't responded back but didn't really need to. They were simple emails about the kids schedule and very to the point. 

I did notice on her progress report .. which I hadn't noticed before that she has been tardy 4 times each quarter for the past three quarters. I have only had her tardy once b/c she was sick and that was last week. I wonder if my lawyer would need this? Would it help my case of having them with me? Will be interesting to see if that can help.


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## EnjoliWoman

I know what you mean - when things go well we are waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Just keep ignoring texts and keep sending emails and only respond to those. Eventually he'll have to switch over if he wants a response. We've been ordered to communicate via email since 2005 and he STILL doesn't check it regularly.

BTW - a FABULOUS service that is worth the annual fee of $36 - it's called "readnotify dot com". If you have an account with them, you can send emails with court admissible certified tracking. You can choose for the service to be invisible to the receiver or for them to see you will get a return receipt. It shows when an email was read, how long it was left open, if it is opened/read numerous times, if attachments are opened, if it is forwarded... 

I use it for everything I send ex. I know he almost never opens the progress reports or report cards I send, some of them he has never even read but mostly I see that WEEKS will go by before he reads them. And this is our primary means of communication. I can prove I've done my part. I think that's pretty cheap to be able to prove I have constantly kept him informed. You can log in and view all of the emails you've sent and print off the certification proving delivery and any activity on any given email and the storage amount is huge. 

As to progress report - yes, I would contact the teacher to get a copy of her attendance record to see which days she was tardy and to match those up with his visitation schedule. Ex was doing this, too. Judge ordered him to get her to school on time. It's all part of the big picture of who is the responsible parent and what is right for the kids. 

For me, it's not about making a huge deal about every little thing but rather painting a picture of what time with Dad is like vs. time with Mom. If Dad skips the homework and encourages kids to lie about doing homework because he wants their time with him to be all fun and games plus he's not getting them to school on time, that is a bad example to set for children. A good parent should emphasize that learning is important. When they are young we are establishing good habits related to school and we are setting an example of what we find important in life. 

I always had to keep on top of any projects that were due because he would never work on research papers, science projects, etc. so I had to check the due date and the visitation schedule to make sure that we worked on it during our time because otherwise she'd be turning in a half-assed attempt she rushed to complete on Sunday evening because he wouldn't do anything with her all weekend. Maybe she was afraid to ask so I would tell him she had something due and it still never happened. Now that she has her laptop and is getting older she is taking more responsibility for this but I know she has work due after spring break and she is with her dad. My bet is Sunday night she'll be doing school work instead of my catching up with her. It is what it is. 

They sounds like they could be related. Lots of similarities.

BTW - I realize I had to go to court for custody. He wasn't going to settle for less than 50/50 and with a history of abuse and a restraining order against him my state won't do mediation. Too big of a risk of intimidation. 

You aren't looking to prepare for court BUT being prepared gives your attorney everything she needs to bargain successfully. Your attorney will emphasize to his attorney what the issues/concerns are. His attorney will reason with him by saying if he doesn't agree, the judge _could_ be harder on him - no guarantees. So by having your documentation it gives your attorney more ammo and more confidence to press for what you want. As long as it's always in the context of what is best for the kids, it's hard to argue with that. Kids need structure and continuity. Some parents can do that 50/50, some can't.


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## sherri1997

HEy again! Yes, I am trying to get everything ready for my lawyer and have the things that she can use to show his lawyer. I don't know if he is being truthful with his lawyer or not? I just don't know what will happen right now?

That email service is great to have. I am going to look that up and see what I can do.

I never thought in a million years that him and I would be at odds on what is best for the kids. I know it impacts what he has to pay, but come on, this is for your kids. He thinks that I live up some high life where I am rolling in money and that is just not the case. I don't understand him or why he is doing this. I am also prepared to lower child support since I know that this is what will help me win them during the week. I can't lower it by much but b/c we have to prove his income, then it will help to know that i have someways to maybe help win for both of us. I am trying to stay level headed about it and not let my anger from everything else play a part in what happens but that is hard to do sometimes. I have to remember that it isn't my place to seek any sort of revenge ... he will face those demons in his own time.


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## EnjoliWoman

Lawyers are told in law school that all clients lie. I think my ex's attorney was a bit stunned when he realized just how far off the mark ex was. As soon as we settled my attorney got a letter saying he is no longer ex's attorney of record. 

No, you don't know if he is lying to his attorney or if his attorney is just doing the best he can for his client and grasping at straws. Nor do you know what will happen. It's a bit hard but let it go. All you can do is prepare as well as you can and know that you've done all you can and then breathe - let it go. Once mediation is over there may still be some back and forth on finer details but it will mostly be over. 

And remember, "if it doesn't seem fair to him and it doesn't seem fair to you, it's probably fair!" (I'd credit my attorney with that quote but it's probably not a good idea to put her name here!)


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## sherri1997

So things have been quiet -- which is unusual but I refuse to contact him unless it involves the kids. I have had to ask him about child support and he has now decided to pay me twice a month on the days that he wants so I am not going to fight that b/c it just isn't worth it.

I got the email about mediation and it is going to cost $125 an hour for each of us plus a one time fee of $200. I am floored by this and a little worried it will be wasted money. We have been to two mediation sessions. THe first one was with a mediator before we hired lawyers that we ended up paying $200 each to and the second was for the custody that was required by our state. Neither accomplished anything.

So, my concern now is that this will be another wasted attempt and wasted money. I am not sure if it is even worth it? I have to talk to my lawyer but I fear that with all the information that I have, if it is brought into mediation, then he will know what I will be bringing to court if we end up there and will have better time to prepare for everything. So far, he has denied everything that I have said, even the affair and the event where the police had to be called out to our home b/c he was drinking and handling fire arms and talking about how life wasn't worth it. 

I just had to vent here about it b/c I don't know what else to do. I am tired of this rollercoaster. I am getting everything together that relates only to the claims of the summons that was served to him. I am gathering all the docs that are important and getting it all ready for my lawyer. I know I have to trust in the system but I am scared.


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## Pluto2

I remember you discussing the incident with the police and the kids. Even though they couldn't help, wasn't there a police report? Do you have a copy of that? There might be statements in there that could help refute his lies, hopefully.

Definitely talk to your attorney because mediation is cheaper than going to court, but not effective for everyone. So it doesn't help couples where one party is a chronic liar. So extremely frustrating, I know.
Glad things are quiet. For me, every quiet spell reinforced how much I needed to get out of the marriage.


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## sherri1997

Pluto2 said:


> I remember you discussing the incident with the police and the kids. Even though they couldn't help, wasn't there a police report? Do you have a copy of that? There might be statements in there that could help refute his lies, hopefully.
> 
> Definitely talk to your attorney because mediation is cheaper than going to court, but not effective for everyone. So it doesn't help couples where one party is a chronic liar. So extremely frustrating, I know.
> Glad things are quiet. For me, every quiet spell reinforced how much I needed to get out of the marriage.


Yes, we do have record of that happening with the police and have actually subpoenaed those police officers. When my lawyer talked to the officers, they gave her the same description and said that my EX was very cooperative with them, even though they had to drive him home b/c he was too drunk to do it. So, yes, we can prove that.

I have another problem that I didn't think would happen but here we are. My kids are telling me lately things that their dad is saying to them that shouldn't be said. For example, my daughter has a booster thing she is raising money for and her dad told her that I put down that I was going to pledge but didn't b/c I spend his money on myself. I just hadn't had the chance to go online and enter in everything, which I did tonight. Then my son tells me that I tell him tricks all the time and that his dad, his dad's girlfriend and his grandma all tell him the truth, while I trick him? These are two kids that are 6 and 3 .. they can't make this up on their own. Why in the world would they do that? And what can I do to prove it? I know that it is a huge no-no to talk bad to the kids about the other parent and that is why I am very careful in what I say but how do you prove this to a judge?

I also got an email from my lawyer telling me to expect to spend around $100 to $1500 for mediation. I about passed out. I am not sure that mediation is going to help anything and we have already gone 2 times before and got nowhere. I know that our lawyers are with us this time, but will that matter? Will I waste this money to end up in court anyway? And a good friend told me that I would probably stand a better chance in court b/c I have records of everything and won't have to negotiate on things b/c a judge might see through my EX so going to mediation might just benefit him? I don't know what to do? My lawyer supported mediation when I talked to her about it so I would feel silly telling her to not do it. I hate all of this and I am so stressed about it all. I know I can't control the things that he does ... I know this and am trying really hard to let it go but it is hard when it impacts my kids. Do or say all you want to me but please leave our kids out of it .. they didn't ask for this and they love us both.


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## Pluto2

This doesn't sound good for a happy resolution through mediation. Talk to your attorney about a child psychologist seeing the kids, or a GAL from the court.

The thing you have to remember is that his "love" for the kids ought not to harm them. Directly lying to them about you is harming them. They are young and they don't get it yet. Of course they love both of their parents, that's what kids are supposed to do. But parents are NOT supposed to hurt their own children. When one does, it is left to the other parent to step up and protect them.


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## angstire

Agree with Pluto, loving your kids doesn't involve saying negative stuff about the other parent (unless there is true danger). If he loved them and can't say anything nice about you, he could just keep his mouth shut. 

From what you've described, he's unlikely to do that, because he knows what's best for all and he's smarter than everyone else. Sounds like a narcissist.


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## EnjoliWoman

Pluto is right. And sorry if I'm overstepping boundaries by coming in here with advice all of the time. I don't mind if you don't take it or if it doesn't apply. But...

It took me years of taking that high road of being careful and never saying anything bad about the ex. Meanwhile he was alienating her. Look up "Parental Alienation Syndrome". Brainwashing kids and telling them lies ONLY to use them as revenge (knowing that's what will hurt you the most) is one of the worst things a parent can do.

Buy the book "Divorce Poison" by Richard Warshack. I used many of his techniques to win my daughter back. But most of all it will teach you techniques to fight this NOW. First, it is OK to tell kids the truth when parents aren't on the same page about what the tell kids about divorce. If he is making up stories, you need to be factual. Being factual is NOT bashing. Be very careful in analyzing what you say and your motivations, but if you feel good about both, then proceed. It is OK to say "I know Daddy FEELS that way, but that isn't really true. Ask them if they have seen anything you bought for yourself besides the same things you buy them (shampoo, food, etc). You can say that you had to enter everything and "come look - (log in) see, I did put down the money for the fundraiser right here. He was mistaken." You can carefully dispute his negativity with age-appropriate facts. 

DO NOT ASK EX ABOUT THIS YET. He may try to get them to lie for him. Mine asked my daughter to keep "secrets" and he made it seem special. If I asked what they did Saturday she'd say "It's a secret" or later on "We don't share our business". It turned out to be a plan to get custody so she could live with him. He made her feel like she was in on some fun, special plan. 

Ask your son what kinds of tricks he thinks you play. Joke around... magic tricks? See what tricks (aka lies) he thinks you are telling. 

Record these conversation you have with them - THAT is how you prove it to the judge. Also, as a parent, you have the legal right to record their conversations (there is case law on thsi) with their father or with anyone else they speak to. 

When one is taking a bath or otherwise distracted and you have alone time with the other child, sit the other one down, preferably with a distraction like having desert or play legos, etc. You don't want them to think too much about what you are asking - you want them to keep their guard down as they SHOULD with Mom. 

Start recording. Use their full name or get them to state it. Ask them if they can spell it all, etc. - whatever to get it on record that is who you are talking to. Then ask a few questions about what Dad said and phrase it in a way that you are seeking to understand because you are confused. Kids love to be the authority on something. Help them clear this up for you. Play dumb. Say you don't understand and repeat (as in active listening) clearly. You want both the intent of what was said as well as the words to be understood because a kids' speech can be difficult to understand, especially on a recording. And you can't "lead" them into saying something - that's why you need to play dumb. Don't say "You told me that Daddy and Grandma said I trick you" - you have to play dumb and say "what was that you were telling me Daddy and Grandma said?" because they have to voluntarily state that. Then you can respond to what they have said in a diplomatic way, such as Daddy must be mistaken because I DID put the money in there, but I still needed to put it in the computer. Or if the boy was 'tricked' into saying something, tell him you'd never trick him because people who love each other don't trick or lie... I'm sure you can come up with a good resolution to the accusations that are coming from STBX through them. 

Remember - get name on recording, get clear statement of the in appropriate thing that STBX has said, reiterate in clear terms that the the child verbally agree to (yes, you understood correctly) and counter with an age-appropriate, factual, non-bashing answer to their concern. Then conclude with a quick thanks for talking to Mommy, I feel better now that we've talked about it and maybe say you will always be there to talk about whatever bothers them. Make it very natural - "I like that tree you're coloring/do you want me to help build the lego train/etc because the recording needs to be obvious that you didn't strap them into an interrogation chair and this wasn't rehearsed.

I wonder how close you were to resolving things? If you were 70% of the way there, then feel good about your attorney's ability to resolve in mediation. Ask her for her success rate - both in mediation and in the court room. If you feel you can get 90-95% of where you want to be (and have confidence she'll get you there), go mediation. If not, go to court. She probably knows his attorney, how cutthroat he/she is, etc.

Do you think he's willing to compromise? Is your attorney a hard ass? IF you think mediation will fail, don't be shy in telling your attorney. You aren't being hard to get along with - it's your money. Make it work for you. You know him better than anyone and you've seen his refusal to give an inch on visitation days, even for the benefit of the kids. He won't try to get two days off consecutively even. I don't think he's motivated to resolve this.


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## EnjoliWoman

angstire said:


> From what you've described, he's unlikely to do that, because he knows what's best for all and he's smarter than everyone else. Sounds like a narcissist.


I agree - I already thought that but I try to be very careful about projecting. Too much of OPs situation rings true with me.


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> Pluto is right. And sorry if I'm overstepping boundaries by coming in here with advice all of the time. I don't mind if you don't take it or if it doesn't apply. But...



No, I really appreciate your advice and everyone else that has posted back to me. It is greatly needed and thank-you so much for taking the time to do it.





> I wonder how close you were to resolving things? If you were 70% of the way there, then feel good about your attorney's ability to resolve in mediation. Ask her for her success rate - both in mediation and in the court room. If you feel you can get 90-95% of where you want to be (and have confidence she'll get you there), go mediation. If not, go to court. She probably knows his attorney, how cutthroat he/she is, etc.
> 
> Do you think he's willing to compromise? Is your attorney a hard ass? IF you think mediation will fail, don't be shy in telling your attorney. You aren't being hard to get along with - it's your money. Make it work for you. You know him better than anyone and you've seen his refusal to give an inch on visitation days, even for the benefit of the kids. He won't try to get two days off consecutively even. I don't think he's motivated to resolve this.


We aren't even 5% into solving anything at this point. We were going to mediation to mediate all factors in my summons to him requesting custody of kids during school week, alimony, child support, equitable distribution and lawyer fees. He denied everything in the summons, including the affair. I dont' have a lot on the affair but I have enough of their communication and her stating to me in email and text that they had an inappropriate relationship. Neither will admit actually sleeping together but he told me enough when we first separated for me to know the truth and I really do think that he slept with her and many others. I also have record of him getting sexual favors from other woman through his work so I am not sure why he would deny that. He also denied the police coming to our home to make him leave ... and there is a police report on this, even though I didn't press charges.

My EX knows me and he knows that I am not good under pressure. He wants to make me fold and run away but the stakes with the kids are too high.

This morning I went to take my son to him. He came downstairs and I could already tell he was not in a good mood. So, I told my son goodbye and got in my truck and my EX started walking towards me. I started backing out but he got to where i couldn't. He asked me about pants for my son and the cooler packs from the lunches. He wasn't really asking me, he was rudly telling me what I needed to bring to him and why. I just rolled my window up and started to leave. I wasn't going to sit there and have any sort of conversation with him based on him being angry. Meanwhile, my son is still standing there, waiting on his dad. As I am backing up, my EX yelled "you are just going to drive off" and I didn't say anything and he flipped me off and said "F you, you Fin B*tch" in front of our son. I didn't know what to do, so I just told my son that I loved him and left. I was so angry. I called my lawyer b/c I am over being scared of the exchanges. I can't talk to my lawyer until next week so I guess until then, I don't meet with him, without anyone with me b/c he won't do anything like that while someone else is around.

The actions from this morning proved that mediation isn't going to work. This man, boy, thinks that he is above the law and that I am weak. I don't like confrontation and will cry like a baby on the stand, but I will fight for what is best for the kids. He has no idea how far I will go for them.


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## sherri1997

angstire said:


> Agree with Pluto, loving your kids doesn't involve saying negative stuff about the other parent (unless there is true danger). If he loved them and can't say anything nice about you, he could just keep his mouth shut.
> 
> From what you've described, he's unlikely to do that, because he knows what's best for all and he's smarter than everyone else. Sounds like a narcissist.


Yes, he is for sure very close to being a narcissist. He loves his kids but he hates me more. This is a dangerous place to be. I have sat and thought a lot about what my choices are and what is best for the kids. I try to make sure that I am never reacting out of anger and trying to retailiate against him. His anger is going to eat him alive. He shows it more and more when he doesn't get what he wants and he makes no attempts to try to even work with me on what is best for the kids.


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## sherri1997

Pluto2 said:


> This doesn't sound good for a happy resolution through mediation. Talk to your attorney about a child psychologist seeing the kids, or a GAL from the court.
> 
> The thing you have to remember is that his "love" for the kids ought not to harm them. Directly lying to them about you is harming them. They are young and they don't get it yet. Of course they love both of their parents, that's what kids are supposed to do. But parents are NOT supposed to hurt their own children. When one does, it is left to the other parent to step up and protect them.


You are right -- I can't imagine a mediation outcome that is positive. I am going to talk with the attorney about a child psychologist. And I agree with you totally about protecting the kids. What he is doing is hurting them. I don't and will never talk bad about their father. I am truthful with them when they ask questions but there is a huge difference of telling the truth and bashing him. I tell the truth about his girlfriend, I will not lie to my kids. My mom never lied to me and sometimes I wished she would have but I knew I could always trust her. My kids will always know that they can trust me and know the difference from what I am doing versus what he is doing.


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## Pluto2

At the very least you can address this in mediation. Put in a provision to whatever custody agreement that neither will speak negatively about the other to the kids. Have a monetary penalty for violations. Of course I have no idea how you could enforce that since he denies everything.


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## EnjoliWoman

Sorry that happened, Sherri. That's why you should always carry a VAR. Or use your phone to record voice or video if able.

I think you should skip mediation. Have the attorneys communicated? Do you have an outline of what you want and has that been addressed by him/his attorney? I'm thinking that it is probably pretty easy to show a judge that you have a starting point but that he won't even concede on one single point and you feel you have come to an impasse and regret that you need the courts to intervene and make a ruling.

I have the stipulation (and have since day 1) that we aren't to speak badly about the other parent. If I recall correctly, mine says something along the lines that both parents acknowledge that fostering a positive relationship with the other parent is essential to the well-being of the children and with that in mind both parties agree to not speak negatively about the other parent in the presence of the minor child.

They won't put a financial penalty for talking badly about the other parent but you CAN put in a clause that, if it is determined that either has violated that provision, the offending parent must [fill in blank] - give up parenting time, visitation must be supervised, must attend family counseling... lots of choices here, but know whatever you put in there will apply to you, too, and he MAY try to twist your actions or words and even get friends/family involved to enforce against you. Dangerous territory writing in a penalty. Perhaps classes on co-parenting or sessions with a counselor would be a good place to start. Often they can carefully reinforce that this is for the good of the children and sometimes a parent won't listen to the other parent but will listen to a professional.

Also consider a provision regarding where/when you exchange for parenting time. When she was little it was daycare/school. I dropped her off Friday morning, he picked her up Friday afternoon. No contact at all - it was lovely. Now we do it in the local police department parking lot. Cameras and security. My kiddo only knows it's because it's safe even if it's dark and late. But since he kidnapped her once, I like having the police nearby and keep a copy of the order in my car. You can even add that neither parent is to exit the vehicle although that may be hard with a pre-schooler. 

And not only a child psychologist - consider a family counselor. They serve a lot of purposes. The child can talk to them alone, but it's great to get advice on how to answer tough questions, how to deal with their frustration and make transitions easier, how to cope with Ex or how to explain certain things to the kids... Personally I think psychologists are great for diagnosing issues and dealing with deeper angst but if it's to work through being upset over hearing Dad talk about bad stuff, a counselor, LCSW or therapist can be a great alternative. They can mediate conversations between you and the child as well. "DS, what did you tell me you wanted to say to Mom? Mom, how do you feel about that?" etc. It really helps with communication - especially when kids might not be comfortable saying things, having someone there is great. It ensures they are heard.

Lastly, I think ignoring your ex, while is usually good to not engage, might have been the wrong move in front of your son. Perhaps interrupting and saying that you need to go or you'll be late but to please send you a quick email and you'll respond right away would have been a good approach. Your son would see you as being cooperative but not a doormat. 

BTW, I'm not good under pressure either. I have to rehearse in my head what I'm going to say and that's not really feasible in a conversation since it inevitably gets off track. In my order it says email shall be the primary means of communication between the parties and if a reply is needed in less than 36/48/etc hours, to notify the other parent via text/phone call that there is an email that requires their response. You may want to stipulate that both parents are expected to check their email once a day or once a week... whatever you find reasonable knowing your situation.


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> Sorry that happened, Sherri. That's why you should always carry a VAR. Or use your phone to record voice or video if able.
> 
> I think you should skip mediation. Have the attorneys communicated? Do you have an outline of what you want and has that been addressed by him/his attorney? I'm thinking that it is probably pretty easy to show a judge that you have a starting point but that he won't even concede on one single point and you feel you have come to an impasse and regret that you need the courts to intervene and make a ruling.
> 
> 
> And not only a child psychologist - consider a family counselor. They serve a lot of purposes. The child can talk to them alone, but it's great to get advice on how to answer tough questions, how to deal with their frustration and make transitions easier, how to cope with Ex or how to explain certain things to the kids... Personally I think psychologists are great for diagnosing issues and dealing with deeper angst but if it's to work through being upset over hearing Dad talk about bad stuff, a counselor, LCSW or therapist can be a great alternative. They can mediate conversations between you and the child as well. "DS, what did you tell me you wanted to say to Mom? Mom, how do you feel about that?" etc. It really helps with communication - especially when kids might not be comfortable saying things, having someone there is great. It ensures they are heard.
> 
> Lastly, I think ignoring your ex, while is usually good to not engage, might have been the wrong move in front of your son. Perhaps interrupting and saying that you need to go or you'll be late but to please send you a quick email and you'll respond right away would have been a good approach. Your son would see you as being cooperative but not a doormat.
> 
> BTW, I'm not good under pressure either. I have to rehearse in my head what I'm going to say and that's not really feasible in a conversation since it inevitably gets off track. In my order it says email shall be the primary means of communication between the parties and if a reply is needed in less than 36/48/etc hours, to notify the other parent via text/phone call that there is an email that requires their response. You may want to stipulate that both parents are expected to check their email once a day or once a week... whatever you find reasonable knowing your situation.


Thank-you for responding ... I am going to talk with my lawyer next week and also talk toher about my feelings on how she is representing the case and if she has talked to the other lawyer b/c I know that they do talk and I am sure that they have discussed this. I do think that mediation will be a waste of time but I am so scared of testifying b/c I will crumble and cry when I am talking about my kids and I want to be strong and confident and not a weepy mother. He knows every avenue to use against me and he knows my weak points. This is why I was hoping that mediation would solve things and we could move on from that point.

In my state, I can record conversations but I can't video him without his permission but I do record everything. 

This morning, he sent me an email and told me about the outfit that they bought for my daughter's pictures. In the email, he put how "we" bought the outfit and "we" would like it back and "we" will worry about how the outfit is washed, ect. I know this is small to some but he knows that using "we" versus "I" will get to me and of course, it did, but I didn't respond to the email. A couple of hours later, he sent pictures of my daughter with her hair culred and in her outfit. Again, this mght seem like a nice gesture but my daughter is a huge tomboy and she won't let me touch her hair .. won't even let me put it in a ponytail, lol. So, him sending me these pictures might have been his way of hurting me by showing me that my daughter let the OW fix her hair. It is small games like this that he plays to hurt me and woudln't be noticed by others and would make me sound crazy if I even told others. In the past, I would have responded to the emails but I am staying quiet and not saying a word.

And you are right about the fact that I should have got out and said something to the EX when he did that in front of our son, but I was in shock and getting out of my truck would not have been a good situation. If my son brings it up, then I will talk to him or I might talk to him about it anyway .. I am not sure how to handle that yet?

I am just at a loss about all of this. I don't know which direction to go and I am kind of pissed that my lawyer didn't think enough of what happen yesterday to think that maybe she needs to talk to me now about all of this? But if I get another lawyer, I will have to pay for everything all over again and I just can't afford it. I have zero extra money. I don't know what to do?


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## EnjoliWoman

Doggone it lost my usual wall of text. 

Don't worry about attorney not calling right back. Just add another entry on your list of evidence under "talks badly about me/to me in front of children" and note the recording. 

Schedule a quick conference call with attorney. Ask her perception on his attorney. Will his attorney try to reason with STBX? Ask about the judge if there's one assigned to the case. Ask your attorney what she would recommend a sister/cousin do in your situation. Decide which way you want to do based on success rate, not fear of testimony. 

If you go to court, I can help you with that. Don't worry about it now. Don't worry about tears. That is completely natural and nothing wrong with showing emotion about your kids or marriage. It's OK to be human - you won't be the first or last to cry. Don't let that make your decision about court. If your ex gets satisfaction from your tears, it will short lived.

As to the "we", so what? Wouldn't you rather be a "me" than a "we" with THAT? Maybe you are just strong enough to stand alone and he is not. 

As to the dress, be glad it goes back to them. Who cares what he thinks about how you do laundry - silly excuse for just being sure that anything HE/THEY pay for comes back to their house. It's just silly control stuff. Besides, you don't want that ugly piece of fluff in your house or daughter's closet.

Get your recorder ready and ask your daughter about the picture. Tell her you got it and it was very pretty but you kind of like her just the way she is with muddy knees and messy hair.  (My kiddo was like that - no barrettes, headbands, NOTHING.) Make her feel good about her the way she is and give her a chance to say something. They may have bribed her with a treat or activity,or cajoled her by Dad "betting" her she couldn't be girly, or maybe Dad was even PA/nasty and said "Mommy says you aren't pretty but I think you are - let's prove her wrong". Or if the OW has a daughter they might be comparing/making it a competition. 

No way to know. It didn't take anything away from you, right? The only thing you need to worry about is if it took anything away from D - self confidence.

It's hard to learn to let go and ignore. Not the same situation as there was no OW but it can be difficult to not read to much or overthink. You spent a lot of years with him and I have the benefit of many years away. It gets easier.


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> Doggone it lost my usual wall of text.
> 
> Don't worry about attorney not calling right back. Just add another entry on your list of evidence under "talks badly about me/to me in front of children" and note the recording.
> 
> Schedule a quick conference call with attorney. Ask her perception on his attorney. Will his attorney try to reason with STBX? Ask about the judge if there's one assigned to the case. Ask your attorney what she would recommend a sister/cousin do in your situation. Decide which way you want to do based on success rate, not fear of testimony.
> 
> If you go to court, I can help you with that. Don't worry about it now. Don't worry about tears. That is completely natural and nothing wrong with showing emotion about your kids or marriage. It's OK to be human - you won't be the first or last to cry. Don't let that make your decision about court. If your ex gets satisfaction from your tears, it will short lived.
> 
> As to the "we", so what? Wouldn't you rather be a "me" than a "we" with THAT? Maybe you are just strong enough to stand alone and he is not.
> 
> As to the dress, be glad it goes back to them. Who cares what he thinks about how you do laundry - silly excuse for just being sure that anything HE/THEY pay for comes back to their house. It's just silly control stuff. Besides, you don't want that ugly piece of fluff in your house or daughter's closet.
> 
> Get your recorder ready and ask your daughter about the picture. Tell her you got it and it was very pretty but you kind of like her just the way she is with muddy knees and messy hair.  (My kiddo was like that - no barrettes, headbands, NOTHING.) Make her feel good about her the way she is and give her a chance to say something. They may have bribed her with a treat or activity,or cajoled her by Dad "betting" her she couldn't be girly, or maybe Dad was even PA/nasty and said "Mommy says you aren't pretty but I think you are - let's prove her wrong". Or if the OW has a daughter they might be comparing/making it a competition.
> 
> No way to know. It didn't take anything away from you, right? The only thing you need to worry about is if it took anything away from D - self confidence.
> 
> It's hard to learn to let go and ignore. Not the same situation as there was no OW but it can be difficult to not read to much or overthink. You spent a lot of years with him and I have the benefit of many years away. It gets easier.


When does it get easier? It has been almost a year and I am still not over it. Then I talked to my sister in law today and she told me that I was wrong about when the OW#2 and the EX got together. But I know she has been lied to as well. I just don't know truth from fiction anymore and I have to accept that I probably will never know. I did find out today that the OW#2 is moving back home to go back to work on Monday .. thank goodness. I know a lot of what he does, he does b/c he has her there with him. He will get worse now. He will be alone and he will come after me full speed now b/c he doesn't have her there tokeep him at bay. She lives 2.5 hours away and she has a goverment job .. she won't leave that job (she has been on medical leave) and he won't move back to where she lives so where will this relationship go? He will always wonder if she is cheating on him and she will always wonder if he is cheating on her. It is a bad situation and I really hope they can't make it work. I know it is petty and I shouldn't care but I can admit here, that I do care and I want him to hurt as bad as I have this past year. I hope that these feelings pass soon too.

I still feel like I am sitting in a dark tunnel and there is no light. I am sort-of seeing someone but I can't give that any attention until this is over. I have a meeting with my attorney on Thursday ... so I will ask her those questions.

I have been best friends with his sister for many years and I realized today that I have to cut that contact. She is blood and it doesn't matter that I have been there for her when her whole family has not. Their mother is a true and true narcassist ... he is borderline but the mother is toxic and the worst I have ever seen now that I know more about the sickness. They are all conditioned to fall for her lies and deception and my sister in law is no exception. She is now lying and defending her brother when she is the one that was there when I found out about the OW#1 and knows more about the OW #2 then she will admit to me. I can't have that in my life. I love her like I do my own sister and I hate letting her go but it is time and the healthy option for me.


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## Pluto2

If your SIL is toxic you need to stop thinking of her as your friend.
One of my former-SIL had a horrible time with her ex. Her ex walked out on her with no warning when the youngest of their three kids was two months old. She had no job and no money. My ex and I helped her out with the kids (this was before we had any of our own) and money when we could, and held her hand for years while she tried to get support from him.

Well, now that its her brother who is a deadbeat her memory is short. Now she thinks child support is so unfair, how could I take everything from him. I am taking nothing away from him. The amount he agreed to pay is just less than the guidelines amount, and he still won't do that. He hasn't paid me a penny in months because "its not fair" and the SIL whose children I fed is backing him. I am now a blood-sucker because I am trying to enforce his legal obligation to support his children. Blood is thicker than a marriage license.


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## sherri1997

Pluto2 said:


> If your SIL is toxic you need to stop thinking of her as your friend.
> One of my former-SIL had a horrible time with her ex. Her ex walked out on her with no warning when the youngest of their three kids was two months old. She had no job and no money. My ex and I helped her out with the kids (this was before we had any of our own) and money when we could, and held her hand for years while she tried to get support from him.
> 
> Well, now that its her brother who is a deadbeat her memory is short. Now she thinks child support is so unfair, how could I take everything from him. I am taking nothing away from him. The amount he agreed to pay is just less than the guidelines amount, and he still won't do that. He hasn't paid me a penny in months because "its not fair" and the SIL whose children I fed is backing him. I am now a blood-sucker because I am trying to enforce his legal obligation to support his children. Blood is thicker than a marriage license.


Yes, you are right and I am sorry that you have to face that with your ex sister in law too. It is sad b/c her and I were so close. She is the one that thought my EX was cheating on me and was on the phone when I found out. She was there through it all and b/c he now talks to her, after years of not talking, he has been able to wind her into his story that he tells everyone and she believes it. When we were talking yesterday and she denied what I was saying, I called her out on it. And then she comes up with another story, to cover the one that she knows is true. I was in shock. But the Man upstairs has a weird way of showing me who I can depend on and who I can't. The saddest part is that my sister in law is moving back near me .. she currently lives like 12 hours away and is moving back and will only be about an hour away from me. She is going to wonder why I won't see her and it is going to kill me but I have to break that contact. 

I was restless all last night. I am restless b/c I have to decide on this mediation and what i am going to do about it. I amrestless b/c of having to be face to face with the OW#2 yesterday and how that really messed me up. This week, it will have been a year since the last time the EX and I had sex. It will be a year this month since I was out of town and he moved the rest of his stuff. It will be a year since he moved into his own apartment and a year since he got serious with the OW#2. I don't know what is truth and what isn't anymore. The things that my sister in law said to me confuses me and what I know my reality is. And the EX tells me all the time that I don't know what I am talking about and that I am wrong. Am I confused or did I make up something in my own head to think the worse? I know that I know the facts and what I have found out but I can't help but to doubt myself. When is this stupid rollercoaster over? I remember thinking last year that "a year from now" I will feel so much better and look back and not have any regrets but it is now a year later and I am still in a bad place and don't see any forward movement at all.


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## Pluto2

People lie and there's not much you can do about it.

I hope you appreciate that you still have work to do to really detach from the situation (don't we all). You can arrive at the place where his motivation for taking certain actions really won't impact how you live your life. Instead of feeling the sting from his mind games, you will feel sorry for him for being so small and petty.
It is a process....


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## sherri1997

Pluto2 said:


> People lie and there's not much you can do about it.
> 
> I hope you appreciate that you still have work to do to really detach from the situation (don't we all). You can arrive at the place where his motivation for taking certain actions really won't impact how you live your life. Instead of feeling the sting from his mind games, you will feel sorry for him for being so small and petty.
> It is a process....


It is interesting that you bring that up b/c that is kind of where i am at now. I am in the middle. The mind games still sting but I am starting to feel sorry for him too b/c those mind games he is playing is b/c he is really the one that isn't happy and he wants me to be right there with him.


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## EnjoliWoman

Not only do people lie but narcissists tell so many they forget them. And often the children of narcissists inherit those traits. So your only truth is YOUR truth - that which YOU KNOW. So your ex, his siblings, his parents - anyone exposed for so long to that poison has to maintain their lies. And the lies can change to serve the situation. 

Good move on cutting her out. That's one of the hardest aspects of divorce. I loved my extended family and they loved me. But ex made it very clear that was HIS family - to them and to me. Even if they sympathized, a relationship with me simply wasn't worth his anger. I don't blame them.

From Psychology Today article on narcissism and lying:
"Some lies maintain the facade of the False Self. On a more conscious level, lies are central to:
Staying in power and keeping things under control
Keeping the flow of narcissistic supply
Satisfying the grandiose, entitled self
Avoiding any shame if their status is not as high in reality as they think it should be
Minimizing the onerous possibility of having to concern himself with your needs."


So you can see, they lie for a lot of reasons, most of them to preserve their facade or to debase those they lie to. So they are all best to be out of your life because you can't trust what they say. 

When I left ex I only had a couple friends. Most friends had been alienated or left behind because ex was so needy I couldn't maintain those friendships very well. Fast forward 5 years and I had a nice circle of friends and acquaintances who knew me and kiddo. So when Ex filed for emergency temporary custody citing all kinds of wild accusations and I read it to them, several exclaimed "OMG that's HIM, not YOU!" and another said "Does he live in Opposite World because that describes what HE does!" 

And post-diagnosis and learning about narcissism, I find out they are PROS at projecting! Imagine that - taking HIS bad behavior and projecting it on ME! And those comments of friends came flooding back and I am grateful they could see the truth and believe in me.

Again, not to say this is your ex but if you really feel he was raised in that environment, he can't have come out unscathed.

It does get easier. It's a learning process and takes personal growth and sometimes just gritting your teeth like you did at the school event. Document everything because you will feel prepared and armed - whether defensive or offensive. Celebrate the little things - the things you can do that he never liked. Enjoy the random gifts that life brings - try to focus on positive things in the here-and-now by keeping a gratitude journal. Learn minimalism with words (funny coming from me!) with your ex - does he need to know? Do you need to answer now? Do you need to defend? Odds are he sucks you in a lot and you have to start channeling your thinking to this new way like a 180 on information flow. Focus on the big picture. Think of where you'll be in 5 years. Career, home, kids, etc. Focus on the possibilities of the future. This isn't a roadmap, it's more like a daydream. You can redirect at any time, but in 5 years your focus will NOT be on this crap day-to-day and that is relief.

You'll get there. Most all of us have and time and emotional distance will make a huge difference.


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## Pluto2

:iagree:

Great advice.


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## Pluto2

How are you doing? How are the kids?


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## sherri1997

Pluto2 said:


> How are you doing? How are the kids?


Hey! Thanks for checking on us. We are doing okay. I have been keeping busy with power washing my deck and will be staining it this week.

Made a really hard decision this week to give away our dog. This will really hurt my oldest as she gets what is going on but we have a big dog and I got her two years ago ... she is so much work. I would never have gotten her if I would have known that my EX was leaving. He didn't care for dogs, but I worked part-time and had more time to spend with her. Now, she is always stuck in the house when the kids aren't here b/c I am at work and on the days that they are here, she gets a little bit of time with us but the days are always so hectic as a single mom that works full time and takes care of the kids during the spare time. And the biggest decision maker was the cost to keep her. I can afford the food and all but if she got sick or anything, then I wouldn't be able to afford to help her. I can't even really afford to take her to the vet for her shots and such so my friend's mom passed away and her dad has always raised the type of dog that I have and his wife didn't allow dogs so he wants to take ours. I have sat on that for about two months now and finally made my decision this week. I talked to my oldest about it and she is really upset and sad but I really hope that she is okay afterwards ... it kills me to hurt her like this but I have to do what is best all around. 

Outside of that, things are quiet here. Went to my lawyer this past week and things went really, really well. We have an awesome mediator and I even talked to a good friend of mine that went through a horrible divorce and she used the same mediator and said he was really good, so my hopes are high. I went into my meeting with my lawyer and told her what I am willing to work with and what I am not willing to bend on and we had a really good talk. At the end of the meeting, I told her about meeting the OW#2 and how unattractive she was and my lawyer asked to see a picture of her and said "He left you and his family for that?" It helped a little bit!

Saw a picture on the OW#2 FB that my daughter drew that said "my daddy loves OW#2 and they are kissing" and it hurt more than I care to admit. Not b/c I want to be with him .. that ship has sailed but b/c it just hurts and I am not really sure why?


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## Pluto2

Hi Sherri,
Of course it hurt. You are thinking about the life you wanted to have with him and about how it was tossed aside. No one likes to think there are replaceable. You are not replaceable. You still need time to detach from this toxic relationship.

I understand about the dog. Before my dday, when I thought my H was Only depressed, we got a puppy. My hopes were that the ex would bond with the dog, take it for walks and such, and maybe it would help with the depression. It didn't and I was stuck with the dog care. I'm not at the point where I would get rid of the dog but I have totally nixed the idea of getting one more creature in the house. There is only so much anyone can do before you reach overload.

Glad things are going well at the attorney and mediator. Keep us posted.


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## angstire

Sherri, glad things are going well with attorney, mediator and making tough but good for you decisions on the dog. 

Just read EW post about YOUR truth and agree with her and Pluto's agreement with her. That whole post is a good one. Reread.

Take care


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## EnjoliWoman

Ah such great news about the mediator! I really hope this works out and I'm glad that you had a good meeting with your attorney and outlined your stance on everything as well.  I hope to hear good news about the outcome!

I'm sorry about the dog. Some breeds do require more attention than that. Could you get a kitten? So much more independent yet playful - maybe that would help your daughter adjust?


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## Pluto2

Sherri, have you power washed and stained a deck before? I have a huge deck that wraps around the side of our house that needs it, but I've been hesitant to give it a try. I know that's stupid since I reno'd the kitchen on my own, but its outside for the world to see. Let me know how it goes.


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## greenfern

Pluto2 said:


> Feel free to take out some of your frustration and anger on your attorney, that is what you pay them for. Make a pest of yourself to get some paperwork. Talk with the attorney about the consequences of your moving home now, before the paperwork, before the court date. That would make ex go to court to change it if he really wants the kids (I bet he doesn't, I bet he just wants to jerk you around over the kids).
> You are their mom and I bet you are the primary care-giver. In lots of courts that still counts for a lot.
> Why don't you have an order of temporary support? Honestly, go yell at the attorney.


I haven't read the whole thread but I recommend NOT doing this! It will just cost you a fortune. Use a lawyer wisely not as a IC/punching bag.


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## EnjoliWoman

Pluto2 said:


> Sherri, have you power washed and stained a deck before? I have a huge deck that wraps around the side of our house that needs it, but I've been hesitant to give it a try. I know that's stupid since I reno'd the kitchen on my own, but its outside for the world to see. Let me know how it goes.


Easy-peasy, Pluto. Pressure washing simple - just slow, steady and consistent 'sweeps'. As for staining, I recommend rolling a deck vs. spraying - it avoids drip marks.


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## sherri1997

Thank-you for everyone that replied.

THe deck has been a huge project and I didn't think it would be this hard to do. I had to pressure wash mine first and then sand it and then paint it .. it took a long time and I am still not done. It isn't hard to do, but it is time consuming and tiring, lol.

I am not having a good day. I am not sure what has set it off. The EX texted me yesterday (yes, I have told him not to several times but he doesn't listen) and answered a question about the swingset that we built last year for the kids. I was asking if it was the type of wood that can be stained. I had sent this question in an email a couple of times with no response. Then out of the blue yesterday, he sends me that text and tells me all about staining and the swing set, ect. It was actually a nice text. But then after that, he called me about a bill still being in his name that is for the utilities and I didn't know it never got switched over so I called to do that and let him know it was done. He was nice about that but told me that he would have the service turned off and that is stupid b/c he has our kids here and turning off the utilitiy would have impacted them. But I had no issues getting into my name and that was done.

Then today, he starts calling me about a credit card that is in his name and he has no record of the account number. I don't have the account number and I told him ways that he can have them find it b/c when he calls the company, they tell him there is no account in his name and it isn't on his credit report. So, since i work in the credit card industry, we called them on 3-way and tried to locate the account with no luck. So, I told him there wasn't anything else I could do and to have his bank handle it.

But the conversation went okay and there were no fights. I don't know if that is why I am feeling this way now? I am still so hurt. I am still so hurt b/c of the way that things went down but I still doubt my reality all the time b/c of the things that him and his sister say. I don't like to doubt myself and I go back over my journal and I know what happen and what went down. I know my EX isn't a good person for what he did but I also know or think that he learned his lesson from the affair and that it might have made him open his eyes a bit. I have been crying all day. I don't know if it is b/c I miss him or if it is because I have regrets? It has been a year now .. we are divorced ... why can't I let him and our marriage go? Why am I still crying? Why do I still blame myself?

Why has it been so easy for him to move on and fall in love with someone else? I have a guy that really likes me ... I think he is actually in love with me and I can't fathom moving forward with anyone else. I know I am not healed .. I know I am not ready to be with anyone else. I know I don't want my marriage back b/c I was unhappy for so many years but I thought we would be able to fix this. I honestly thought that the separation would open our eyes and bring us back together but it has done the opposite. It has made us hate each other and there is no going back ... there are no second chances.

I am sorry I am rambling .. I just want this pain to stop.


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## Pluto2

So sorry you are having a bad day. There are so many roller coaster days in this process and it can really throw you for a loop. Be careful comparing your recovery to the ex., its dangerous because you might start engaging in self-deprecating thoughts. You are doubting yourself and your marital history. Read your journal, and read it again. You didn't lie to yourself. You know what you went through. Men like this re-write their history so they can live with themselves.

There is nothing wrong with taking your time to heal-most people need to, which also suggests that your ex is not dealing with anything. His present relationship is doomed to fail without any introspection.


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## angstire

His current relationship is a feel-good bandaid on all the yuck he has within. When it fails to be perfect over the longterm, he'll blame her and move on. There is no growth without introspection.


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## Pluto2

angstire said:


> There is no growth without introspection.


What a fabulous statement. I might steal that.


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## angstire

Pluto2 said:


> What a fabulous statement. I might steal that.


Thanks, but, I kind of stole the kernel of it from you.


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## Pluto2

angstire said:


> Thanks, but, I kind of stole the kernel of it from you.


well no wonder I liked it!


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## EnjoliWoman

Hugs to you. It's OK and normal. As a Mom you've had to focus on the kids a lot. It's harder to focus on YOU and have those times of introspection and healing when you have the daily tasks of caring for them and a home. All of those distractions keep you from having quality time in your head.

May I suggest that, if he texts, just don't respond. By responding you are encouraging that form of communication. And if you have a DIY question, a car question, etc. - Do. Not. Ask. Only ask about stuff that has to do with your personal business that involves him or the kids. Because the guy at Home Depot can answer that question.

I always ask "guy" questions to my Dad or my best guy friend. Or I research it online. The last person I would ask for helpful advice from is ex. I don't care if it's when you last had the AC serviced. Just don't. You can't lean on him. And that also helps with moving on.


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## sherri1997

angstire said:


> His current relationship is a feel-good bandaid on all the yuck he has within. When it fails to be perfect over the longterm, he'll blame her and move on. There is no growth without introspection.


I can agree with you from some extent. I just see who this girl is and that is what he wants. He wants someone that doesn't have kids of their own and only has to focus on him and she can do that. The only issue I see is that she is over 2 hours away from him with her job and home.

I don't know I feel like this was just a one time mistake for him and he learned his lesson. I see that or he wants me to think that he is so much better of a person now. I remember when he was a great person and partner. He now seems to be that person again and it hurts. He has been looking for a new job and he admits to me that part of the reason we are were we are now is b/c of his job. So now, he is out looking when he wouldn't do it before.

I just don't know. I am trying to understand and close the door and I am just trying ... I don't know what else to say that I haven't said before. I never wanted this .. I never wanted to be divorced. But this is where I am now and I am trying to learn how to accept and love myself again. Just very hard to do when his happiness is always in my face. My kids talk about her and him all the time and at times, I don't know how I get through it.


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> Hugs to you. It's OK and normal. As a Mom you've had to focus on the kids a lot. It's harder to focus on YOU and have those times of introspection and healing when you have the daily tasks of caring for them and a home. All of those distractions keep you from having quality time in your head.
> 
> May I suggest that, if he texts, just don't respond. By responding you are encouraging that form of communication. And if you have a DIY question, a car question, etc. - Do. Not. Ask. Only ask about stuff that has to do with your personal business that involves him or the kids. Because the guy at Home Depot can answer that question.
> 
> I always ask "guy" questions to my Dad or my best guy friend. Or I research it online. The last person I would ask for helpful advice from is ex. I don't care if it's when you last had the AC serviced. Just don't. You can't lean on him. And that also helps with moving on.


You are very right on this. I learn with each contact to not make the mistake again. I am now thinking on anything that I think I have to ask him for a few days and then going from there. Most of the time, I can get the answer myself. I am learning that the less contact I have with him, the better.


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## EnjoliWoman

I know you suspected narcissistic behaviors. He's not on the extreme end but if he's on the spectrum, it wouldn't be different if you got back together.

Because you are right it's the fact she can devote herself to him. Narcs have to be the center of attention and that can't happen with kids around. I've noticed that, based on some photos kiddo has or stories she's told, ex likes kiddo around part time because he can show her off - used to make her do tricks and stand on his outstretched palm as a toddler and likes for his friends, mother and girlfriend to see what a 'wonderful' father he is and feel sorry for his achy-breaky heart because he mopes when she's not there. Yet he can't be bothered to keep track of a science project or her reading assignments... any school work is always done Sunday evening when she comes back. He doesn't like the responsibility aspect.

If he were to have children with this woman, it would all change again and SHE would be on the outs.

Good plan on taking time to think about your questions for a few days to decide if you really need to ask.

And when is your mediation with the attorneys? Hope that turns out well.


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> I know you suspected narcissistic behaviors. He's not on the extreme end but if he's on the spectrum, it wouldn't be different if you got back together.
> 
> Because you are right it's the fact she can devote herself to him. Narcs have to be the center of attention and that can't happen with kids around. I've noticed that, based on some photos kiddo has or stories she's told, ex likes kiddo around part time because he can show her off - used to make her do tricks and stand on his outstretched palm as a toddler and likes for his friends, mother and girlfriend to see what a 'wonderful' father he is and feel sorry for his achy-breaky heart because he mopes when she's not there. Yet he can't be bothered to keep track of a science project or her reading assignments... any school work is always done Sunday evening when she comes back. He doesn't like the responsibility aspect.
> 
> If he were to have children with this woman, it would all change again and SHE would be on the outs.
> 
> Good plan on taking time to think about your questions for a few days to decide if you really need to ask.
> 
> And when is your mediation with the attorneys? Hope that turns out well.


Hey -- Mediation is on the 29th and I am so ready for it to get here. I did find out that back when we were first looking at mediators, before we hired our own lawyers, a retired judge friend of his suggested that we go to a certain mediator b/c he was really good. Come to find out, this mediator that we are seeing on the 29th, is the same mediator that is friends with one of my EX friends. I know they are to be neutral but it does kind of worry me that he already knows someone that is close friends with this mediator.

Yes, he is on the borderline of having narcissistic behaviors. I would say he is on the low end, with his mother being on the high end. Like your ex, he really only enjoyed the kids when it was convient for him, otherwise, he would prefer to have his time. Before we had kids, we were together for 7 years and we only had one major issue before that and I waited on him hand and foot. I took over where his mother left off and when we had kids and I wasn't able to do that, things changed.

I don't think these two will have kids together. She has never wanted kids (from what I know about her) and he refuses to have anymore kids .. adding more kids would take away from him and he doesnt' want that. 

I know I am still in survival mode right now with mediation coming up ... I just really hope that we can decide on things and let this all go. Once that happens, I will do everything I can to make sure that we have no contact at drop-offs b/c the less I see him, the better. He pulls me in by being nice to me (like he is right now) and then when I give just a little bit, he will pull something to bring me back down. I suspect he is being nice right now b/c he doesn't have her there with him ... no matter the reason, I am not here for him anymore and I don't want to be cordial with him. Maybe one day, I will be able to forgive him and be cordial with him but that time is not right now.

Thanks again for responding and the advice .. it is much appreciated!


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## EnjoliWoman

Hm - you think a mediator would excuse themselves and have another appointed if there was a conflict of interest based on a familiarity with the people. Maybe you should ask your attorney?


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## Pluto2

I don't see a conflict here. The mediator is friends with a friend, not the ex. People are allowed to know folks without a conflict. Really I don't think that is a problem.

During mediation try to "sound" sympathetic to his need for his own time as a way to get more time with the kids. It will be better for you and for them. I would also suggest that someone wait for you during mediation so you won't have to interact with him. If he suggests something, you have a ready excuse to dash off.


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## sherri1997

I don't really see the mediator as an issue either but this retired judge is really close to my ex and the retired judge is who knows the mediator. IT was who my ex suggested we use before we hired lawyers but we ended up going to someone that neither of us knew. I am not going to stress about it right now ... it does no good.

I went to pick up my son today and he was bitten by my ex mother-law's dog. This is not the first time, my daughter was bit last year right under her eye. She needed stitches but my EX's girlfriend (the OW#2 who I didn't know was his girlfriend at the time), who is a nurse, said that she didn't and I wasn't there to have any say over it. Needless to say, my daughter now has a scar where the dog bit her. Now, my son has a bite in his face, in almost the same spot, after we agreed that this dog wouldn't be around our kids again. But I guess the MIL brought the dog and my son got bite. When I asked my son what happened, he told me "don't be mad mom, it was an accident" and started crying. I know he was told to say that it was just an accident by my EX and his mother ... I held my cool but I am pissed ... I am pissed b/c they know this dog has a record of bitting kids and my kids aren't the only one and they still allowed the dog there this weekend while my kids were there with them and my son paid the price. And to top it all off, I didn't get a call about it. The EX has been calling me ever since I picked my son up but I am too angry to talk to him, so I have let it all go to VM and will wait to talk to him until I am more calm. Any suggestions on how to handle this? If it was the first time, I wouldn't be so concerned but they put our kids in a situation to get hurt again and I am so angry about it.


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## Pluto2

call animal control. the dog has bitten twice and the adults can't control him. Who cares about your ex MIL, your kids aren't safe.

My daughter was mauled by a dog in Sept. Even with a really good plastic surgeon she has scars on her face, but I guess its not as bad as it could have been. The dog was put down-we live in a one bite jurisdiction.

This is an excellent point to bring up in mediation. That dog is never to be around kids. That guideline was already established and broken. If he can't follow that, why is he getting joint custody. Also, the guidelines for communication. All injuries must be communicated immediately and not left for the kids to explain.
So sorry Sherri.


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## EnjoliWoman

I agree with pluto2 - call animal control. No way should a dog be around small children who bites. This isn't just a threat to your children but to other children as well.

Also - use Mederma on the scars several times a day. It really does help. Kiddo got diagonal cut on her brow bone across her eyebrow and it required stitches. The doctor recommended it and you can barely tell.

I'd also be pissed that he relied on the GF to 'diagnose' whether or not it required stitches. Take him to the doctor. If the doctor says it should have been stitched, that will at least be noted in the medical file. You don't need anything in writing yet but you can always get copies of their medical records.

Just another thing to be sure to include in the child custody agreement - that if an injury is sustained by the children, the other parent is to be notified via text. If possible the parent with the child should photograph the injury to send to the other parent so they can decide together if medical attention is required.

We have a clause about injuries and notifying the other parent and so far it has worked for us. It's really only common courtesy.

I'm sorry you had to deal with that and even sorrier for your son. He really shouldn't be made to lie for Dad. Well, it's not really a lie - it WAS an accident - no one commanded the dog to bite but the adults knew better. He knew the dog bits and even if she showed up with the dog, then he should have told his Mom to put the dog in the bathroom and shut the door, or some other area that is safe for the dog but that keeps the dog away from the kids.


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## sherri1997

I called animal control in the county that my daughter got her bite in and they couldn't do anything and couldn't locate record of her getting bitten so there was nothing that they could do. So, I called the local animal control here and waiting to hear back from them.

When I dropped my son off this morning, I had my recorder on just in case, but tried to leave before the EX could get to me but he got to my window and told me he was sorry for not contacting me and that he wasn't home when it happened. I told him I was calling the animal control and he asked me not to. HE said that he was really upset about it and told his mother that they would no longer be around the dog .. but yet, they are going there on Memorial Day. When I asked how he was going to keep the dog away from them then, he suggested or implied that they were gong to stay at the gf house .. I don't know this girl and the only things i do know about her aren't good. Why would he just expect me to be okay with that?? I woudl never take our kids to someone that he didn't know and stay the night there .. especially a romantic partner. But I have to let that go, dont I .. along with everything else.

Anyway, so I get home and get a message from him saying that it didn't look like a bite but more of a scratch .. after he told me that he didn't realize that it was so bad the night before. I asked him why he had his parents watching the kids when my lawyer had sent his lawyer a request not to have the kids around his parents b/c of past issues. This isn't an order but just a request. He told me I "needed to stop playing games" and to "grow up" and "enjoy my day" ... I told him he needed to give me a little bit more respect as our kids mother .. that I am not trying to make things hard but I am concerned b/c now both of our kids have been hurt by this dog. I wasn't yelling or mad, but I used a curse word and he talked to me like I was a 3 year old .. and then hung up on me. I didn't call back .. it does no good. 

Here is the problem .. my EX is now sending me texts (that I am ignoring) saying that my son provoked the dog and that I shouldn't make a big deal out of it b/c he doesn't make a big deal over bumps and bruises when they are with me. He makes me feel like I am wrong in wanting the kids to not be around that dog? I am so angry.

I have to come to a place where he can't get to me anymore but when he uses the kids to get to me, then it really upsets me. We had agreed to not have this dog around the kids .. this dog is known for aggression. We have a german shephard and my kids love dogs .. this dog just isn't made to be around anyone outside of the MIL. If you ask the MIL to have the dog put up, she will put it on the counter ... she will not put this dog away for anyone ... and my EX won't enforce it. What do I do? What can I do? Now my son is being made to feel like it is his fault and it isn't and I am so sad for him. I am so upset that they are using my kids to get to me .. and some things they might not be doing on purpose but come on, leave them out of it... they are so young and innocent. I have metnioned before that my ex knows that I didn't talk to my dad for years b/c of the crap my mom told me and I lost many years with him b/c of this ... why is he doing this? What can I do to make it stop? If I just give in to him, will that help him to leave our kids alone??


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## EnjoliWoman

Rule #1 - Kids first.

Do the kids benefit from interacting with the dog? No
Do the kids benefit from interacting with the MIL? No

And apparently you two agreed to this.

Does a toddler (he's 3, right?) "provoke" animals? Sometimes but not on purpose. Usually they are either rough without intending to, make sudden noises or motions (like squealing and jumping in excitement) that make the dog feel threatened. So the child is NOT at fault, regardless. He's being a child. Blaming him is wrong of your ex. (She'll put the dog "up" on a counter? eww)

So, thinking "kids first" I would kneel down and tell your son that you know it was an accident, that he didn't mean to frighten the dog. I'd also tell your son to avoid that dog and explain that dogs are like people - some good and some bad. Some can be trusted and some can't. And this dog can't be trusted and to please not play with it. I would tell your son that "Grandma isn't supposed to bring the dog for visits and say you don't know why they chose to bring a dog that they know bites. Maybe even remind him of the dog biting big sis.

If the adults can't be trusted to look out for him, he will have to know to avoid the dog. This is the back-up plan, assuming the ex won't enforce the rule. Your kids HAVE to know to avoid this dog if your wishes are ignored.

I would not answer his texts - after all, no texting, right? Mediation won't happen until after Memorial Weekend. You have several choices right now. 

a) Call MIL and tell her that the kids will not be visiting her if you ever find out the dog is in the same room as the kids. Who does she love more - grandchildren or dog? Tell her if you EVER find out the kids have been around the dog she will NOT ever visit again. Period.

b) Have attorney send MIL a "Cease and Desist" letter instructing her that the authorities have been advised about her dangerous dog and she will cease to expose the children to the dog or they will not be allowed to visit her home again.

c) Have the same done for your ex, saying that if he ever exposes the children to that dangerous dog, that you will have your attorney immediately file for emergency custody since he can't be trusted to keep the dog away from the children while there. He can put the dog in a room away from the kids if his mother shows up with the dog or he can turn his mother away.

He can have the dog stay in some other room of the house or put up a baby gate somewhere or he can simply tell her to leave the dog at home. Some people personify their pets way too much. SMH


This IS serious. He makes it sound small but next time it can be an eye, a deep cut, rip an ear, a mauling, a bite to the throat... and if the MIL can't see that she doesn't deserve to be around them. Screw them all if they think you are being unreasonable. Temperament of a dog is my NUMBER ONE criteria when choosing a pet. I have kids in and out of my house all of the time. I can't bear to think I could be responsible for one of them being injured by a pet, much less one of my OWN! Why they can't see it that way is beyond me.

His text is merely him covering his ass, making it seem unimportant. Right now is the time to set a precedence. Consult your attorney. Make sure this is in the order you guys draft in mediation.

ETA - there IS one more thing although it could backfire. If you KNOW that the kids are in the presence of that dog - and I mean KNOW - call Child Protective Services and explain. It may look like you are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill (hence backfire comment). It depends on whether there is any record of the first attack. Are there photos? You have texts, etc. regarding the second one.

If it is agreed upon and put in the order you two sign, and this happens after you have it in writing that he agrees to keep the children away, you have a bit more leverage.


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## Pluto2

:iagree::iagree:

This is great advice.
Telling your son that that dog was not supposed to be around him is great. It reassures him that both Mom and Dad are taking steps to look out for his well-being, that you are both acting like parents. It also lets him know that despite agreements, people don't always live up to those agreements. It also allows him to feel like he has some control over what is happening in his world. He has a game plan when you are not there. He can tell you all about it after the fact.

This might also be a good time to tell him about secrets. Remind him that sometimes, when people know that they are breaking their word, they will ask other people to keep a secret for them. Remind him that secrets are hurtful and you would never do that, or ask him to do that. Then leave it at that. If your ex or MIL then ask him to lie about the dog's presence you have done what a good parent does to teach their child. 

You are not making too much a deal about this. You are protecting your child at a time when your ex refuses.


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## sherri1997

I am waiting on animal control to call me back to give them what has happened. There was no record, like I was told there was, on the first time the dog did that to my daughter. I do have pictures on an old phone that I am actually waiting on a battery for to try and get it up and working so I can access old texts and pics from there. 



> I would not answer his texts - after all, no texting, right? Mediation won't happen until after Memorial Weekend. You have several choices right now.
> 
> a) Call MIL and tell her that the kids will not be visiting her if you ever find out the dog is in the same room as the kids. Who does she love more - grandchildren or dog? Tell her if you EVER find out the kids have been around the dog she will NOT ever visit again. Period.
> 
> b) Have attorney send MIL a "Cease and Desist" letter instructing her that the authorities have been advised about her dangerous dog and she will cease to expose the children to the dog or they will not be allowed to visit her home again.
> 
> c) Have the same done for your ex, saying that if he ever exposes the children to that dangerous dog, that you will have your attorney immediately file for emergency custody since he can't be trusted to keep the dog away from the children while there. He can put the dog in a room away from the kids if his mother shows up with the dog or he can turn his mother away.
> 
> He can have the dog stay in some other room of the house or put up a baby gate somewhere or he can simply tell her to leave the dog at home. Some people personify their pets way too much. SMH


I can't call my MIL -- that conversation won't go well. I called my attorney but can't talk to her until this next Monday and we have already sent a 'cease and dissist" order to keep kids away from his parents and new girlfriend and both were ignored so that does no good.

I am angry my lawyer won't contact me back or doesnt think it is important enough to contact me back. I just saw on FB a posting by the GF of them happy and together and him posting how much he loves her ... makes me sick but happy that I don't have to put up with him anymore. But sad b/c old friends are supporting it .. when does this crap ever stop? I can't take much more and I am about to break


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## sherri1997

And I just got a call back from animal control and b/c the dog is in a different county and there is no record of the prev bite .. there is nothing that they can or will do. 

I am so upset .. how can they get away with this and nothing be done and I am left looking a fool?


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## Pluto2

will animal control accept you photo you have as evidence of the prior bite?


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## sherri1997

Pluto2 said:


> will animal control accept you photo you have as evidence of the prior bite?


No, the guy had just got off the phone with my MIL and he wasn't really nice to me. Kept saying that I would have to contact a lawyer to keep the dog away from my kids and that he was only there to make sure the dog had current shots.

I feel so powerless and broken ... how is it that I am left with all of this? How do I move on from all of this? I do I get back power? WHy am I still in tears over her posting a picture of the two of them and everyone that I was friends with is liking the picture? I didn't want to know about the picture but someone posted about it .. I am so broken right now over everything ...


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## Pluto2

The crying part is you-still hurting from the breakup. When you loved him and married him you meant every word of those vows, and worse, you thought he did, too. I never met him. Maybe he meant them when he said it, lets just say he did. But somewhere along the relationship he stopped. He didn't tell you he stopped. Instead of telling you he stopped he betrayed you and it hurts like hell. 

You were making great strides in gaining control of yourself and your world. Dealing with the dog/ex/exGF/MIL reminded you of the control you initially lost. You haven't lost anything you have been working on. This is just a stroll down memory lane.

I can promise as time rolls on it will get easier.

I wish I had more suggestions for dealing with the dog.


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## EnjoliWoman

Deep breath. Likely MIL told animal control something like you hate her and are trying to manipulate custody or something. Remember, narcissists can be very articulate and charming and innocent when they need to and fool people every day. I'm sure everyone my ex knows thinks I'm a b*tch and a raving lunatic. But who REALLY knows the situation? YOU. And if friends still like ex then they have been fooled. Either pity them for the naivete or realize they were never your friends to begin with. This is a fresh start. Starts are always a little lean. Your circle of trusted friends will grow. Unfollow them so you don't see any more.

Well, it seems you only have a few choices. I would document this instance thoroughly, including saving texts, photo of son, etc. Then look to see if there is evidence of the previous occurrence - did she go to the doctor? Instruct your children to stay away from the dog. Don't make them fear all dogs and be careful to make sure your instructions don't come across as retaliatory to ex or MIL. Keep it only to the dog. 

"You know they love seeing Fang, but he gets scared easily - some dogs do." This is a good time to tell them to not pet ANY animal unless they ask the owner first. It can be a pet rabbit but the kids should ask. Going on walks, same thing - never pet a dog they don't know unless the owner says it's OK. Also, teach them HOW to approach dogs. Never reach for the head. Approach slowly, palm up, let dog sniff hand, scratch the chest.You'll just have to trust the kids right now. Have your daughter look out for little brother and make sure he remembers. Focus on SAFETY, not ex, MIL, or "that" dog. Speak as if you sympathize. 

Don't get mad at your attorney. You aren't the only client. You don't know if she is in a deposition all day or has court, or meetings lined up. Be patient. It may take a couple days unless it's an actual emergency. I know it is to you; but she sees/hears a lot worse. 

You've done all you can. You called animal control, they spoke with MIL, you spoke to your ex and since they don't seem as concerned as you, you have instructed your kids to keep away from it. Now all you can do is add this to the list of conditions you want in the custody plan. You can emphasize that you and ex had agreed the dog wasn't safe after the first incident and keep it broad - this order may be in effect for a long time. Add a consequence to compel him to comply.

"Father and Mother acknowledged that both children have been bitten by Fang, a chihuahua owned by the paternal grandmother. Both parents agree that children shall not be exposed to Fang who has been shown to be aggressive. Additionally children will not be allowed to visit paternal Grandmother at her home, where Fang resides, until after Fang's death. Grandmother is not to bring Fang to Father's home. Should children be found to be around Fang during Father's court ordered parenting time, joint custody will be revoked and full custody will be awarded to Mother. Father's visitation will then be _______." Supervised/at a public place/etc. on [day of week].

Or whatever you guys hammer out. This is the best you can do. This is the hard part of letting go. It's REALLY hard when you know the other parent isn't going to be vigilant and yet you have no say. That lack of control is one of the hardest parts of co-parenting to get over.


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> Deep breath. Likely MIL told animal control something like you hate her and are trying to manipulate custody or something. Remember, narcissists can be very articulate and charming and innocent when they need to and fool people every day. I'm sure everyone my ex knows thinks I'm a b*tch and a raving lunatic. But who REALLY knows the situation? YOU. And if friends still like ex then they have been fooled. Either pity them for the naivete or realize they were never your friends to begin with. This is a fresh start. Starts are always a little lean. Your circle of trusted friends will grow. Unfollow them so you don't see any more.
> 
> Well, it seems you only have a few choices. I would document this instance thoroughly, including saving texts, photo of son, etc. Then look to see if there is evidence of the previous occurrence - did she go to the doctor? Instruct your children to stay away from the dog. Don't make them fear all dogs and be careful to make sure your instructions don't come across as retaliatory to ex or MIL. Keep it only to the dog.
> 
> "You know they love seeing Fang, but he gets scared easily - some dogs do." This is a good time to tell them to not pet ANY animal unless they ask the owner first. It can be a pet rabbit but the kids should ask. Going on walks, same thing - never pet a dog they don't know unless the owner says it's OK. Also, teach them HOW to approach dogs. Never reach for the head. Approach slowly, palm up, let dog sniff hand, scratch the chest.You'll just have to trust the kids right now. Have your daughter look out for little brother and make sure he remembers. Focus on SAFETY, not ex, MIL, or "that" dog. Speak as if you sympathize.
> 
> Don't get mad at your attorney. You aren't the only client. You don't know if she is in a deposition all day or has court, or meetings lined up. Be patient. It may take a couple days unless it's an actual emergency. I know it is to you; but she sees/hears a lot worse.
> 
> You've done all you can. You called animal control, they spoke with MIL, you spoke to your ex and since they don't seem as concerned as you, you have instructed your kids to keep away from it. Now all you can do is add this to the list of conditions you want in the custody plan. You can emphasize that you and ex had agreed the dog wasn't safe after the first incident and keep it broad - this order may be in effect for a long time. Add a consequence to compel him to comply.
> 
> "Father and Mother acknowledged that both children have been bitten by Fang, a chihuahua owned by the paternal grandmother. Both parents agree that children shall not be exposed to Fang who has been shown to be aggressive. Additionally children will not be allowed to visit paternal Grandmother at her home, where Fang resides, until after Fang's death. Grandmother is not to bring Fang to Father's home. Should children be found to be around Fang during Father's court ordered parenting time, joint custody will be revoked and full custody will be awarded to Mother. Father's visitation will then be _______." Supervised/at a public place/etc. on [day of week].
> 
> Or whatever you guys hammer out. This is the best you can do. This is the hard part of letting go. It's REALLY hard when you know the other parent isn't going to be vigilant and yet you have no say. That lack of control is one of the hardest parts of co-parenting to get over.


Thanks so much for this and I liked the last part about adding that into the things we go over next week. I highly doubt he will agree to not go to his parents house and even if he does violate it, which he will, I would always have to take him to court but I am going to ask that almost that exact same thing be added into the paperwork.

I had a conference call that was really short with my lawyer yesterday and it went well. We talked about the dog and she will be asking that the dog not to be around the kids. 

So, now we just wait until this next Thursday and pray that things go okay. I don't want to be there all day and I really hope that we aren't. I am ready for this to be over. I am journaling a lot now and getting things out. My IC and I are diving into my past on why I was so dependent on my EX emotionally b/c outside of the emotional crap, I am fine.

Our pool opens this weekend and I am so excited for that for myself and the kids ... we have so much fun in the summer. I know only time will heal this and I am tired of waiting but trying to just let the emotions happen and move forward each morning i get up. Last Wed was a really bad day .. the first day I really felt like giving up but I can't b/c of my kids.


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## EnjoliWoman

I'm glad you're feeling somewhat better. Having a plan in place will be so much relief. I really hope you two can find a middle ground. 

Remember, group your complaints/issues into similar types, select the most impactful examples. At some point it become cumbersome if you have 20 examples of irresponsible behavior and the lesser ones will make you look petty to the opposition. Your attorney will allude that this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Have your MUST HAVE items in your attorney hand as well as what you will accept on the other items (i.e. want father to have two consecutive days, if not one day needs to be a weekend, etc.)

Same with financial stuff - what you want and what you will accept. If your attorney knows your bottom line, she can proceed faster with less interruption/private consultation with you. She should provide a note pad to you so you can jot down a note about something and show her quickly.

And again - remember, if it's not fair to you, and it's not fair to him, it's probably fair (in the eyes of the courts/not worth going to court over).  

Best of luck!


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## sherri1997

Well, things were fine until today. I had to message EX about my son b/c he has custody of him until 2pm on Thursday and I asked him where I could get my sitter to pick him up at 2pm so I can get that all lined up for next week's mediation on Thursday. He sent back that "he had childcare covered" I asked again, where I can pick him up b/c we won't be done by 2pm and that time starts my custody and who will my son be with while he is not there with him. We always agreed that we would use sitters that both of us trusted. 

He then sent " I have childcare coveredas son will be staying with OW #2 and I will bring him to you on my way to work" I then told him that mediation won't be over by 2pm as my lawyer told me to expect to be there until at least 5pm. He sent back "I will not be the rational person in mediation all day long with an irrational person. It should be cut and dry and I am making him spend all of his money on stupid things. And to have a nice day" Added to the end of that a smiley icon. I told him that I would talk it over with my lawyer and to have a nice evening. He sent back "I will have a nice evening and a great weekend as well" At this point, I was like WTF and I was pissed. I have told him that until I know this GF, I would prefer her to not watch our kids and he goes against that. I offered to have my son go to preschool that morning and my sitter could pick him up from there and he said no. I am at my wits end. I am to my breaking point. He has no respect for me as the kids mother. I dont care about how he feels about me as a person but I am a darn good mother and he has no right to treat me the way that he does.

I called my lawyer and told her that 3 hours isn't going to be enough time to work through anything and that my EX had informed me that he didn't take off work for the day of mediation. She told me that my EX doesn't get to decide when we leave, the mediator does. I told her that my EX wouldn't tell me where my son would be at 2pm when my custody time starts and she told me to send him a message that asks where my sitter can pick up my son at 2pm and he won't respond back.

Why does he do this? Why can't he just be civil with me? I amnot trying to make things hard. I express my concerns and he turns it around on me. I don't know how else to do this? I don't want things to be like this with all of us .. there is no reason. We have two kids that need both of us and don't need us being this way with each other. I accepted mediation b/c I thought he would take it seriously and that he would prepare for it and hoepfully settle. I was planning on settling on a lot of things, just so that I can ge tthis over with. But he will never settle. He will never take it seriously and I feel like I am going in circles.

Going to court is always an option but I am so afraid that he will use my insecurities to tear me down. I wanted mediation to be able to say okay "the child support worksheet A says this amount and worksheet B says this amount .. let's do what's best for the kids and have them in one home during the week and not have them bounce back and forth and I will settle on this lower amount in child support so that he will agree to it" But it doesn't matter. No matter what I do, I am only out for the money. When I am the one that has expenses that are way higher than his b/c he didn't take any expenses with him and he is the one that is making way more money that I am but I have to prove that b/c he makes cash money.

I am at such a loss. I want to crawl into a hole and just stay there. I can't do this anymore and emotionally I am not in a good place.


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## Pluto2

He does this because he can.
He's not being civil because he knows it pushes your button and he enjoys creating the strike and pretending to feel that he has power.

The 2 pm switch off, is that per a written or verbal agreement? If its written, threaten him with court if he breaks it. If its verbal, well, you just have to wait until an written agreement is reached. I know it kills you to have the kids with OW#2, especially since you don't know her. This is one of those items you have to try to let go. Sucks doesn't it.

My ex also thinks I'm only after money, but I make more than he does! A very wise (and no longer active) poster reminded me that arguing with people like this is pointless because you will never win. Just say "I'm sorry you feel that way, I see the situation differently." When a conversation gets heated, just remove yourself from the conversation by announcing "This conversation is over." It takes practice. Hopefully things will calm down after mediation. Maybe he's getting worked up at the thought of going through everything with a third party. Just a thought.


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## EnjoliWoman

I'm so sorry you are feeling this way. 

I honestly get where you are coming from. And I only mean to share what I have learned - I'm 10.5 years away from the day I left so I'm very aware that there were days I felt JUST LIKE THIS. And I know that the advice I'm about to give is very hard to put into practice. I had YEARS of practice. I'm only hoping I can help you through it faster than it took me.

You can't make him do anything. You can't make him respect you, you can't make him be a good father or a considerate person or a cooperative person. You can't make him agree, you can't make him do anything. And it's god-awful frustrating. And frustration is the worst emotion to come to grips with, bar none. I've been frustrated to tears in similar circumstances. You can't tell him who can watch the kids. You have ZERO control over his time. ZERO. And you will HAVE to come to terms with that, regardless of how much you hate it and resent it. It takes a lot of practice. I found repeating "Let it go" and deep breathing to help. You will find your own way.

And do read up on narcissism. It will truly shed light on why he treats you the way he does. You simply cannot apply the same logic as you would with a normal person. For instance, in your post alone:

- "he has childcare covered" = NPD speak: do not you second guess me. I will do as I see fit. Period. You have no say, you have no place in my world. You have no choice but to accept what I say and do.

- "i will not be rational in irrational situation" - NPD speak: I assume everyone will acknowledge my superiority and that you are are delusional in thinking that there is any other way than mine. The attorneys and mediator will immediately acknowledge this as it is apparent that I am the rational person. I will decide exactly how everything will go so I won't need extra time - the right decision on every point is painfully clear to everyone but you because I am more intelligent and more logical and you don't deserve anything you are asking for so none of us will entertain your requests and mediation will go exactly as I dictate.

"have a nice night" = NPD speak: I'm done. You are obviously ignorant and irrational so I'm done speaking with you on this topic so I will be condescending and placate you with some superficial societal politeness to end this and you will accept it as politeness and back down because you are stupid.

"i will have a nice night and weekend" = NPD speak: remember your place. you are inconsequential to my life and it will be nice today, tomorrow, next week, next year... without you. I say this to remind you of this fact. It does not bother me how this statement makes you feel - in fact I haven't thought of your feelings about ANY of the things I say. Ever.

Lack of response? = NPD speak: *sigh* how do you not understand your opinion on what I should do with our son does not matter? I will say he goes and when and you will not demand anything happens on your time table. You won't enforce anything - you can't. Everyone will see I'm superior in every way. Rules don't apply to me because I'm special so I will do what I want. I'll get him to you when I am ready to. I make all decisions about everyone in my life. I will lie to you to keep you quiet and still do whatever I want to.

To add to that some of his thoughts: The children are MY children - you were merely a uterus. The kids are good with or without you. Your home is merely a holding place for them when they no longer amuse me or make me look good to my friends, family or lovers. You are neither good nor bad with them - you just ARE.


These can be hard truths to learn. You will need to get angry and tough and not give an INCH because he will see that as weakness and he will push for a mile and he will TAKE IT. 

You are approaching him as if he is rational and will see that both parents are important and rules are important and should be abided by and that fairness rules. In reality, none of this applies. To think it does IS frustrating and will make you want to bang your head against a wall.

So you will have to prove to him that you mean business. He will see you and treat you as an annoying insect flying around his head that he can't get rid of. Even after mediation should you guys settle, he'll on take as a 'suggestion'. You will have to hold him accountable all of the time and it's exhausting but frankly there is no choice unless it's to capitulate completely.

And honestly, I'm not projecting. I have lived this, I have experienced this same mindset and I have studied it to understand. It brought me a great deal of closure but it didn't make him any easier to deal with. I tried to reason for years. I took the high road for years. I assumed if I only discussed things like a normal person that he would see just how much sense things made but that never happened. I finally learned.


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## Morgiana

@EnoljiWoman

Amen. I am struggling with the same thing; rational my ex is not. Other than not letting him upset me though, I have been trying to figure out how to neutralize his behavior. Right now he's going through a crazy period that I don't want to get into too much detail on, but in general how did you protect yourself from your ex?

-M


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## sherri1997

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'm so sorry you are feeling this way.
> 
> You can't make him do anything. You can't make him respect you, you can't make him be a good father or a considerate person or a cooperative person. You can't make him agree, you can't make him do anything. And it's god-awful frustrating. And frustration is the worst emotion to come to grips with, bar none. I've been frustrated to tears in similar circumstances. You can't tell him who can watch the kids. You have ZERO control over his time. ZERO. And you will HAVE to come to terms with that, regardless of how much you hate it and resent it. It takes a lot of practice. I found repeating "Let it go" and deep breathing to help. You will find your own way.
> 
> And do read up on narcissism. It will truly shed light on why he treats you the way he does. You simply cannot apply the same logic as you would with a normal person. For instance, in your post alone:
> 
> - "he has childcare covered" = NPD speak: do not you second guess me. I will do as I see fit. Period. You have no say, you have no place in my world. You have no choice but to accept what I say and do.
> 
> - "i will not be rational in irrational situation" - NPD speak: I assume everyone will acknowledge my superiority and that you are are delusional in thinking that there is any other way than mine. The attorneys and mediator will immediately acknowledge this as it is apparent that I am the rational person. I will decide exactly how everything will go so I won't need extra time - the right decision on every point is painfully clear to everyone but you because I am more intelligent and more logical and you don't deserve anything you are asking for so none of us will entertain your requests and mediation will go exactly as I dictate.
> 
> "have a nice night" = NPD speak: I'm done. You are obviously ignorant and irrational so I'm done speaking with you on this topic so I will be condescending and placate you with some superficial societal politeness to end this and you will accept it as politeness and back down because you are stupid.
> 
> "i will have a nice night and weekend" = NPD speak: remember your place. you are inconsequential to my life and it will be nice today, tomorrow, next week, next year... without you. I say this to remind you of this fact. It does not bother me how this statement makes you feel - in fact I haven't thought of your feelings about ANY of the things I say. Ever.
> 
> Lack of response? = NPD speak: *sigh* how do you not understand your opinion on what I should do with our son does not matter? I will say he goes and when and you will not demand anything happens on your time table. You won't enforce anything - you can't. Everyone will see I'm superior in every way. Rules don't apply to me because I'm special so I will do what I want. I'll get him to you when I am ready to. I make all decisions about everyone in my life. I will lie to you to keep you quiet and still do whatever I want to.
> 
> To add to that some of his thoughts: The children are MY children - you were merely a uterus. The kids are good with or without you. Your home is merely a holding place for them when they no longer amuse me or make me look good to my friends, family or lovers. You are neither good nor bad with them - you just ARE.
> 
> 
> These can be hard truths to learn. You will need to get angry and tough and not give an INCH because he will see that as weakness and he will push for a mile and he will TAKE IT.
> 
> You are approaching him as if he is rational and will see that both parents are important and rules are important and should be abided by and that fairness rules. In reality, none of this applies. To think it does IS frustrating and will make you want to bang your head against a wall.
> 
> So you will have to prove to him that you mean business. He will see you and treat you as an annoying insect flying around his head that he can't get rid of. Even after mediation should you guys settle, he'll on take as a 'suggestion'. You will have to hold him accountable all of the time and it's exhausting but frankly there is no choice unless it's to capitulate completely.
> 
> And honestly, I'm not projecting. I have lived this, I have experienced this same mindset and I have studied it to understand. It brought me a great deal of closure but it didn't make him any easier to deal with. I tried to reason for years. I took the high road for years. I assumed if I only discussed things like a normal person that he would see just how much sense things made but that never happened. I finally learned.


Wow, just wow. I can't tell you how much this post related to everything that I am feeling and now, the light about whyhe does the things that he does. Have been reading a lot on NPD and I didn't relate much of it to him but after talking with my IC and reading this, I think that the brainwashing is keeping me from seeing that he really might have NPD. I am not 100% there and not 100% clear on or in line with thinking that he is this way, but I am getting there. The longer that I am away from him, the more it relates. Did you feel this way too? Like you had to justify that he didn't have NPD and that you were the crazy one? Is that normal?


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## EnjoliWoman

Sherri - I doubted myself a LOT. The only thing I really knew when I left was that hitting was NOT OK, calling me awful names was NOT OK and that most people did not speak to or handle other people that way. And I was afraid if I stayed and my daughter got older and really saw what I put up with or tried to reason with, that she would think that's they way marriages are. I know I thought most marriages were just like my parent's (good).

But I did second guess myself a lot. We could be doing yard work and he might say to move a plant to the left and I'd move it left only to get screamed at that I was stupid and did he have to hit me to get me to listen - he said move it RIGHT!!!! And I'd really wonder if he said 'right'. Or maybe wonder if he meant MY right vs. HIS right if he were facing me. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt but not myself. How nuts. These situations happened all of the time. It could be about dishes, laundry, TV, our daughter, packing for vacation - ANYTHING. And he would say things like "It's amazing you can even hold down a job when you're so stupid you can't even to _______". 

It's called "crazy-making". Literally. You aren't the crazy one.

So of course I was afraid to be on my own - If I'm so stupid it's amazing I stayed employed then how would I manage my whole LIFE? But I had to. It was that or let my daughter think a man hitting and belittling a woman (or anyone) is OK.

At first I ran everything by my parents and friends. Gradually I gained confidence and stopped questioning myself - I finally became a regular Rosie the Riveter! (Can we do it? YES WE CAN) Oh, that's Bob the Builder. You get my point. Now I own a home which I repair, maintain, etc myself, same with a car. Obtain quotes and negotiate services, go on vacation and travel for business (I'd never rented a rental car even). I became overly independent but that is easing up. I'd gladly hand over the reigns to a partner I knew deserved my love and trust. 

Morgiana - it depends on what you mean by neutralize and protect. Protect physically - he knew I had a gun and grew up shooting targets. I installed a camera attached to a VCR (haha sounds so low tech!) and I put passcodes on ALL of my service provider accounts (gas, water, etc - nothing can be changed without the passcode) and kept a copy of the restraining order and custody order in my car and my briefcase and home. I kept all communication to a bare minimum and got help from a counselor on dealing with him. I would give her scenarios I had problems with and she would work out what I wanted to accomplish and to withdraw/disengage when things went off track.

As it relates to my daughter it took quite a few years to settle all of that. 50/50 during separation but I saw that wasn't working and wasn't good for her so petitioned for full physical custody and got that 1.5 years post separation. Then 5.5 years post separation was when he filed for emergency custody and full custody at the same time. That's when I knew he was nuts and I talked to my attorney about asking for a psychological evaluation. She warned me it could back fire but by now I'd been away long enough that I KNEW I wasn't the crazy one and felt confident it would be evident to the rest of the world. It was.

So after this past round we have what I learned is called a "parallel parenting plan" which basically means we follow the order to the letter. There is very little left to interpretation and it outlines practically everything of consequence. We do not have to make decisions together. I'm obligated to consult him but I have final say in everything. I have full physical custody and primary legal custody (full legal custody would mean sole guardian so it doesn't go so far as to exclude him).

So short answer - protect you and yours, document everything, video/record everything you can legally and with kids, become primary parent and put in place a parallel parenting plan when co-parenting isn't an option due to the argumentative, retaliatory nature of the other parent.


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## sherri1997

So, today I was told by my EX that he basicaly plans on asking for custody of the kids on Sunday night from 5pm until Wed morning so they are with him two consecutive days. I am not and will not be okay with this b/c of what I have been told about school, ect. And to top it off, he took the only evidence that I have that he hasn't been keeping up with my daughters school work out of her bookbag and now I have nothing. 

I am at a loss now. I don't want the kids with him during the school week. He could make arrangements to work different hours so that he could spend more time with them but to him, it isn't about actually being with them, it is about how much he is going to have to pay me. He only wants the Sunday night, for two hours, before they go to bed after I have had them all day so that it adds that 3rd night.

What do I do? Right now, this is my schedule ... On Sunday morning, I get up with the kids around 7am and we go to church and spend the day together until EX gets them at 1700 and then go to work at 1800 until 0500 ... Monday, the Ex has them and I go to work at 2030 until 0700 and pick up my youngest at preschool at noon, then my daughter at 1500 and then back to work at 2100 until 0300 and then back up at 0630 to get them to school and take my son to my EX house. I have zero sleep and I don't complain about it b/c I love being a mother and I will work those hours to ensure that I am there for my kids during school hours. I get them the rest of the week on Thursday, Friday and Sat while he doesn't want to see them on any of those days b/c that is "his" time. (on Thursday and Friday, I work in the AM while the kids are at school to get in a full schedule) I have changed my work schedule 4 times since we separated and went from part-time to full-time. 

Meanwhile, he gets them on his days off work and doesn't have to switch his schedule at all, when he has the capacity to do that? He could take off on Sunday and work Wed instead so that he could get them on Sunday morning and have them until Tuesday morning. There are so many different things that he could do, but he won't do it.

My lawyer suggested that I ask for every other weekend and one weeknight where he could have them until 1800 or so. I told her that I was fine with that but since he works on Sat from around 1500 until 2100 and then on Sunday mornings, this would give him very little time with them. I told her that I would offer a few different things that might work for him and his schedule but still allow them to be here while they are in school. His work is closed on Monday and as much as I really do think that they need to be in one home M-F, I was suggesting that they stay with him on Sunday (even earlier on Sunday if he would try to get off so he could have more time) and then stay with him until Tuesday when they go to school. I don't like the Monday thing, but it is fair to him b/c he would get to spend time with them. Then on Wed, he could get them after school and have the afternoon, until around 1800 with them so I can make sure that we get homework and all of that done. Then on Sat, every Sat, every other Sat or 3 Sat .. I don't care how many he wants, he could have them in the AM before he goes to work to spend more time with them. And to counter his reactions about how much he doesn't want to pay me, I was going to offer a middle ground for the child support amount b/c that 3rd night with him raises child support ... if he has three nights then child support would be around $840 and if he only had two nights, then child support would be $1240 so I was going to offer around $950 to him so that the kids will still see him but they will have consistensty in their school time. Summer time is open with me ... he can get them and see them as much as he wants.

So, I wrote that book and explanation b/c I don't know what to do now? I don't know if I should go back to saying he can have every other weekend or if I should offer something different? Him having Mon and Tues is not okay with me and I will fight that. I say this b/c everytime I ask my daughter what homework that they did, she will tell me either they didn't do homework or that he put her in front of the computer to do math homework but would be outside or on the phone and never helped her with it. Again, Kindergarden is easy but as she gets into the higher grades, I have to know that someone is there to help her with her school work. And my son will be entering kindergarden next year ... I am thinking of him .. I am thinking of longterm here. The issue in proving these things is my problem. I can't prove any of it b/c it involves my daughter talking to me. She is doing good in school but I honestly think it is b/c I really spend the time, even on the weekends, going over what she is struggling with. I kknow he isn't doing the same. Add to that, she has been tardy 15 times (3 were mine and excused) she left early 1 day with him signing her out as unexcused and she has missed two days while with him but they were unexcused too. 

And then the other side. It isn't about the money to me .. I make decent money but I am barely making it and if something comes up like my water heater that just broke, my brakes that need to be fixed, my dishwasher that has been broke for a year, ect then I get behind. If he has them on Sunday for a couple of hours before bed, then Monday and Tuesday .. I am still left to pay for all of preschool, insurance, healthcare bills, after school care, ect. He pays for none of that. This is not 50/50 custody and it really impacts the childcare amount. I make good money b/c I am good at my job and I make a bonus each month but in Jan and Feb, I didn't make my bonus and I am still playing catch up and got two 30 day hits on my credit b/c of the house. So, if he doesn't have them 50% of the time and I am paying for all of that, then how is that fair? I am venting about it here b/c it does cross my mind but I can't and won't make it about the amount of childsupport in mediation or court.

I am rambling but I had to get this out and I have to get advice on what I should ask for .. I know what I think is in the best intrest of my kids but I am afraid that the court/mediator is going to 'to bad, so sad' b/c of his work schedule that he refuses to change?


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## EnjoliWoman

It looks like different issues but it’s not. Just as you say, emphasize the kids! That really is what it's all about. The mediator is human, too, and likely has children. Although you run through a lot of stuff, it all comes down to one thing and this is what you say about visitation when it comes to that part of the mediation:

*"I feel that a consistent routine is important for the children's health, well being and school performance and any pediatrician would agree, as does the AAP." *(American Assoc. of Pediatrics)

*"And Based on the history of unexcused tardies, absences, early dismissals and missing homework assignments, the children do not have a consistent schedule when they are with their father although they need consistency in bed times, wake times and home routines to feel and do their best. Not to mention it sets a bad example - punctuality and homework are important to be successful not only in school, but in life and the groundwork for good habits is set young."*

Wrap it up with:
*"Although I have tried to accommodate the father's scheduling whims many times and as a result have disrupted my own work schedule by changing it total of four times now, he STILL isn't pleased with his arrangements. I think my schedule should also be considered but most importantly our children's needs should be considered above all else."

"Therefore, I suggest a compromise. Since he can take off Sunday for quality parenting time, I propose that, for the school year, he spends Sunday with them either from 8am or after work should he not want to take the time off, and return them to my care at 8am Tuesday morning. “* (Or drop off at school and you pick them up from school but his parenting time ends Tuesday morning whether you pick them up and take them to school or he does – adjust the times as necessary for your preference.) *This arrangement allows their father to have two consecutive, uninterrupted days with them which would be less disruptive to the children and he is only responsible for homework one night and arriving punctually at school two days.”*

And THAT is all you need to say. Now, your other comments -

School work that he took out of her bag - yes you DO have something. You are documenting it all here. Do you have a home computer or use one at work? Copy all of your posts here and any emails to friends, etc. and compile into a journal in chronological order with date headers and save on a USB drive. Email it to yourself on occasion as a backup. Email her teacher and tell her you are concerned that your child isn't always completing her work when she isn't with you and has the teacher noticed homework missing? Also ask if she marks in a grade book when they do their homework. If yes, ask for a copy with the other names covered. Also ask for a copy of her attendance record. You will not be the first parent to need these for custody issues. 

Now you have – if you need them:
a) a journal noting problems with homework and attendance
b) an email from the teaching noting problems with homework and attendance
c) or the grade book and attendance records from the teacher

Your journal is court admissible. Keep one going. Let it be your place to vent as well as keeping information in there. So even if you can't get the teacher to provide that stuff in the event she doesn't really track homework (tho attendance she should) you at least have a record of the issues. 

Going forward, do you have a scanner? They are cheap - a basic printer/scanner... when the kids aren't paying attention, scan that stuff. Then it doesn't matter if it disappears - in fact it looks downright suspicious. Lesson learned.  I also copy artwork (the "happy family" showing just me and my parents and sister) and I keep all handmade cards, notes, etc. Although I have gone to greater lengths than most due to my circumstances, I still think it's better to have it and not need it.

You can also put in the order that he is to get her to school on time. It's a little thing but putting stuff in writing gives it credence. For most it should be common sense but I had that issue, too, and my attorney had it added. Just another thing if you end up having to file contempt charges down the road - another thing he violated to give more "umph" should you need it.

If you can get copies of your schedule, or emails from HR or your boss, all of those are good documents. They can be admitted as exhibits should this become a court issue and meanwhile useful in mediation.

And here is a quote from the AAP for quick reference:
Daily Routines and Rhythms - HealthyChildren.org

And those items you scan, the journal and emails from employer? You don't have to print them. Just save them on a flash drive. No need to spend money for stuff you don't need to. Name the documents things that identify who they are from, what they reflect and the date. 

And, may I suggest, don't say "he can have them any time in the summer". You may end up regretting that. Have something outlined that you can live with because you can always allow more time if you feel good about it. You can say that he can have two overnights of his choice during the summer plus both parents get two non-consecutive weeks of vacation to spend with the children and that they have to notify the other parent by ______. I needed to know by February due to summer camp deadlines but the order actually said May 1st. It's May 23rd and I STILL don't know when he wants to take his vacation weeks so I can't plan MY weeks yet. You can always be more flexible but you can't take it back. But based on his lack of cooperation, if you say he can have them whenever he wants, he will take them nearly full time, have OW watch them and then argue that he doesn't owe any support because they were with him _____ nights of the year. It also detracts from your statement that you feel routine is important for kids - yet you are willing to let them have no routine at all in the summer. It's a bit contradictory to the courts and mediator.

Remember - you don't have to hand over evidence when talking to the mediator. You want to be prepared should you NEED to prove it, but don't lead with that. Your word is adequate. If he argues at the table and cuts you off, you can calmly say "please let me finish" and keep talking. DO NOT EXPLAIN TO HIM. 1) You don't owe him an explanation. 2) You aren't talking to him!

When you are done telling the mediator what YOU would like visitation-wise, you can say to the mediator "I have emails/school records reflecting the attendance and school work issues, as well as documents from my employer."

When in doubt, pause and wait for your attorney to speak.


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## Pluto2

EnjoliWoman, this is excellent advice!


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## EnjoliWoman

Pluto2 said:


> EnjoliWoman, this is excellent advice!


Thanks. *wry smile* I have literally considered going to law school to practice family law. I have gotten WAY too much legal experience for a layperson, unfortunately. But I don't want to detract from my kiddo in the evenings and if I wait, by the time I actually can practice law, I won't make enough before retirement to justify the tuition.


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## sherri1997

Wow, EnjoliWoman, this is great advice and I am going to use all of it.

I have talked with my daughter's teacher and there isn't really "homework" yet. Just a paper that we sign, that says we did x,y, z with her. I do get most of her 'graded' papers but this is kindergarden and she just basically gets check marks. I have asked her to get that binder back b/c it has school art work in it that I want to put in her yearly box that I keep for each of the kids so that it doesn't look like I am asking for it for anything else, but he can't really use it against me b/c I have everything in it, while he has barely put anything in it.

I can document the late nights that he keeps them up .. my kids are in bed by no later than 1930 to 2000 on school nights with me ... he keeps them up until around 2130 to 2200 .. that is a huge difference and although I know I can't control this, I do see that it impacts them the following day with me. I can tell when they haven't had enough sleep and when they have.

I really didn't think about this during the summer, so I am going to redo that in my docs to the mediator. I will gather all the absenses and tardies and late night records that I have. I have also kept a journal to track what the kids have told me on where they go, how late they were up b/c of whatever they did, ect. They do need consistancy and a schedule during the school year, and that is my main concern with them going to him two days a week, even if it is on Mon and Tuesday. If he showed me that he could co-parent with me and not be so hard to deal with, then I would probably consider him having them two nights on Monday and Tuesday -- it would make my life with work easier but he hasn't shown that and the biggest thing is that he hasn't shown that he works with her on her school work. BUt I have every single thing or practice worksheet that I have done with her, with a date on it to show that I have worked with her on everything that we have done .. so I will put that all in order as well.

Thanks again and I also think you would be a great lawyer!


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## sherri1997

I just don't know how people get through this and make it to the other side? I know it happens, I see it all around me. I see it in my EX .. he is blissfully happy with the OW#2 and it hurts everywhere. I was shopping today and had to leave the store b/c I just broke down crying. When does this crap end?

COurt will be sometime during the second week of July. I am ready to fight for my kids and he has no idea what is coming. If I thought for one second that he would do right by the kids, then I wouldn't be fighting but he doesn't do right by them and he is only using them to not have to pay me. He loves them, I know that he does but as previous posts have shown, it is all about the image he has to maintain. 

I just want this pain to end. I want joy again. I want happiness and fullfillment. I know that only I can get there but I am at a loss as to how?


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## Paradise

Did I miss something? What happened during mediation????

You will get through this. Right now you are in fight mode. Once it is all settled and you gain some sense of normalcy to your life it will get lots better. 

One bit of advice...Quit comparing yourself to your ex. I have struggled with this more than anything since my divorce and in the end it won't matter one bit. Worry about what you can control and be ok with whatever results occur during mediation/court. Prepare but don't obsess. You are going to drive yourself crazy.


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## sherri1997

Paradise said:


> Did I miss something? What happened during mediation????
> 
> You will get through this. Right now you are in fight mode. Once it is all settled and you gain some sense of normalcy to your life it will get lots better.
> 
> One bit of advice...Quit comparing yourself to your ex. I have struggled with this more than anything since my divorce and in the end it won't matter one bit. Worry about what you can control and be ok with whatever results occur during mediation/court. Prepare but don't obsess. You are going to drive yourself crazy.


Sorry, I did forget to update about mediation. Nothing was resolved. He 'thinks' he might be getting a new job that will give him a normal 9-5 type of job but he won't know until the end of summer. If he gets this job, then he wants week on and week off. The job is a far stretch though and I can't tell you how many times he has had the chance at a 'potential" job. The only thing that we came close to agreement on was locking in income for both sides. If he doesn't get this job then he wants the kids the three nights, but two days b/c of child support. So, we are going to court. He asked for some crazy things from the house and no way is it happening .. I am not giving him anything else. 

How do I not compare myself to him and his new life? I have tried not to and I know it drives you crazy but it is very hard not to do it?


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## Jellybeans

Sherry, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. 

It will take time before you start feeling better. You are in the worst part of it right now - feelings are raw - and you are going through the divorce.

You will survive this and be happy again. Promise.


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## sherri1997

Jellybeans said:


> Sherry, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon.
> 
> It will take time before you start feeling better. You are in the worst part of it right now - feelings are raw - and you are going through the divorce.
> 
> You will survive this and be happy again. Promise.


Thanks Jellybeans ... it has been 18 months since he left. IT has been 8 months since I found out he was with the OW#2 ... I know it takes times, but am I causing or prolonging that time? Until I found out about ow#2, I guess I thought that we would work through things. And I am glad that he is with her b/c I don't want him back but it still hurts. I just don't know how to get through each day .. I feel like I have taken a million steps backwards. I guess b/c he told me the other day that he was very much in love with her after my son told me something different and I asked the EX about it .. long story but that hurt.


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## EnjoliWoman

You aren't prolonging it. You are processing it. And you are miles ahead of him. Remember, he doesn't view things like a normal person. The OW is there to validate him. Normal people don't need external validation - it's nice, but not needed. He NEEDS it because he isn't whole; he had a void he must fill - the void that causes his narcissism. You are a whole person with a few cracks that need to heal up. 

Although I didn't shed tears past that first month, his words and actions from our marriage left a bigger mark on me than any of his strikes. Those take a very long time to go away.

Just keep that internal dialog going. The one that tells you you are more than enough and reminds you why his does/says the things that are hurtful. He knows your buttons just like you know his. Keep doing "the 180" in your mind like you do with your actions and pretty soon it will all come together.

Call me before court if you need to. I'm good at talking people off the ledge.  I didn't realize this was going to court - sorry I just saw this. You know you have the children's best interest at heart - just let that show. It's OK to cry on the stand. You are human and emotion is OK. It doesn't mean he has "won" and if he gloats over making his ex cry, well, then what kind of man is he? 

Just keep focusing on the big issues and the main stuff to back it up. Try to do something happy and positive the day before court to distract you. Otherwise, just keep going as usual. I wish the mediator could speak in court. They saw the stubborn, irrational asinine side.


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