# At My Wit's End



## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

I apologize in advance for the long read, but I feel it'll help with context. My wife and I were both raised in a fairly religious (Christian) upbringing here in the USA. We were both from an early age hammered into our heads that sex before marriage is wrong, etc. We fell in love and married fairly young, I was 21, she was 20. The context here matters - because unlike many couples, we did not experience the "getting to know if we are compatible sexually" phase of a relationship. Those that say "you should have figured this out before getting married" should be aware of that context.

With the above said, I am now 38 years old. We have 2 kids, I have a successful career as a VP of IT, she's NEVER had to work full time although she does have a work from home position of her own. Life is pretty good in most ways. We enjoy being around each other, and in general in MOST ways life is good... except in the bedroom. I'm very frustrated about some things, and every single time I bring them up - it's a massive fight. I don't know what to do. Here's the details:

My wife pretty much out and out REFUSES anything that is sacrificial. Back rubs, blow jobs, etc. - anything that she would have to spend 5-10 minutes to give without "getting" directly is a flat out no - unless I'm engaging in sexual activity with her at that time. She may rub my back or give me a (not to completion) hand job etc. while I'm going down on HER - but she would NEVER just be the type to say "hey honey I know you've had a stressful day, lay back I'm going to dote on you" type of thing. She just won't.


Before everyone jumps on me - no I don't try to pressure, make her feel bad, or "expect" her to somehow do things she doesn't want to. She's not a sex slave, I know this. But I don't understand the mindset of a spouse that doesn't have a desire to make their partner happy. I certainly DO do these sorts of things for her, because I love her. I offer her back rubs, go down on her, etc. I don't expect it in return just because I give it - but I don't understand her mindset of not wanting to make her spouse happy.


Before anyone jumps on the hygiene - I smell fine, I clean myself and groom myself more than an average guy would. I have TRIED to eliminate that as a reason. It isn't the problem.


Full on regular sex happens on average ever 1-2 weeks once. I'm an average guy - I could do it every day and no problem. I understand her not wanting to do it every single day as with kids, work, stress it's tough to find a full hour or two without being tired, but as a man - it would be easier to bare if some of the above stuff happened once in a while.


She has made it abundantly clear early on in our marriage that she is NOT okay with masturbation in any capacity. If I am caught doing this, she will leave me. She has said it very clearly that she views this as cheating.


She has made it abundantly clear she is NOT okay with me seeing a PROFESSIONAL massage therapist for a purely therapeutic massage... she doesn't want someone else's hands on me and feels it's inappropriate.


She grew up in a home where she was taught that alcohol was sinful. I don't agree with this - but she made it abundantly clear she will never allow me to have a beer on our property in any capacity, and she gets really pissed off if I have one elsewhere. I am NOT an alcoholic, I maybe have a beer - ONE - like every few WEEKS at most.
Every single time I have EVER (and it's been often for 16 years) tried to discuss my feelings like an adult, she gets FURIOUS. It becomes the following talking points:

"I will give those things in my own time and definitely won't if you ask me for them!" - except she does not, and has a 16 year history of NOT giving them "in her own time." Have I asked her for them before? Yes absolutely. That started fights. So then I tried going without asking. At one point - it was 2 straight years of me not asking. When I finally got around to saying "hey honey I've been trying not to ask - but since you're not interested in sex tonight, and I'm really backed up - could you perhaps consider giving me a BJ?" - all out war broke out about how she could not understand why I would ask this and how selfish I am.


"I give to you in so many ways and it seems you only care about this!" - usually she's referring to being a good mother (she is), good around the house (she is) etc. - except to me, those are part of being an adult. Not a spouse. I as a husband want that intimate and sex life time with my wife... she can't seem to understand that making the kids dinner does not equate to giving sexually to her husband, and every time I try to talk to her about it, I'm the selfish asshole for bringing it up and it becomes a conversation dominated by her where I can not get two words in edge wise, and eventually end up apologizing for bringing it up just to get back to some normalcy / peace.
I've even tried going all out doting on her asking nothing in return. Over the past week during this Coronavirus lockdown, I have personally cleaned the garage top to bottom. Washed/waxed the floors in the house. Detailed her car out top to bottom including waxing it for her. Cut the boys' hair. Bought her flowers. Cooked dinner 3 nights this week so she wouldn't have to. Given her a 45 minute back rub - without any expectation of sex or anything. Watched HER shows several nights that I HATE (stupid reality stuff) when she knows I can't stand watching that stuff, but tried to snuggle on the couch and spend time with her doing what SHE wanted. All the above - then last night I asked if she was in the mood - she said no. I asked if she would consider helping me out - boom war all over again about how selfish I am for asking, that it'll happen in her own timing (same talking points which after 16 years I don't believe her timing exists), and that now it's obvious to her I was only being nice to get what I wanted... which wasn't true.

I'm at my wit's end. I'm a good husband - I work hard, care for my family, do the right things, am I selfish and bad for expecting a satisfying sex life? I am tired of feeling rejected, undesirable, and attacked for trying to have a conversation about my sexual desires. She literally called me a pervert and stomped out of the room last night for asking for a BJ. I don't feel like I'm a pervert in any way and I'm really getting depressed and sad about this. Please give me any insights you may have - including correction if you think I'm being an ass. I need an outside view - but I feel my wife is being selfish and unfair. It's "you can't relieve yourself or your tension in any way - by having a drink, getting yourself off - anything - but I won't fill that void either so oh well" - and it's really not fair.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

From what you have said, you are a good husband. Too good of a husband.
My advice would be for you to take control back of your relationship.
I know that when my wife demonstrated the same type of attitude that yours is, I took some action.
Read up on the 180. Implement it for a few days. Should get her attention real quick (it did for my wife.)
Sit down and hammer out something that works for both of you. Show some compromise and expect the same.
Worked for me.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

jimbradshawucf said:


> I apologize in advance for the long read, but I feel it'll help with context. My wife and I were both raised in a fairly religious (Christian) upbringing here in the USA. We were both from an early age hammered into our heads that sex before marriage is wrong, etc. We fell in love and married fairly young, I was 21, she was 20. The context here matters - because unlike many couples, we did not experience the "getting to know if we are compatible sexually" phase of a relationship. Those that say "you should have figured this out before getting married" should be aware of that context.
> 
> With the above said, I am now 38 years old. We have 2 kids, I have a successful career as a VP of IT, she's NEVER had to work full time although she does have a work from home position of her own. Life is pretty good in most ways. We enjoy being around each other, and in general in MOST ways life is good... except in the bedroom. I'm very frustrated about some things, and every single time I bring them up - it's a massive fight. I don't know what to do. Here's the details:
> 
> ...


Read my thread. Read No More Mr. Nice Guy. Stop making secret contracts that she doesn't know about. I have a similar situation without some of the nuclear stuff about drinking and masturbation (which isnt a conversation per say but...I am not sneaking around either). 

How much do you know about her past...? Upbringing? That is my missing link. Don't give up.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

9 Bible verses about Sex Within Marriage here are 9 reasons for her to honor the vows of marriage. From scripture.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

This is where counciling comes in. You need a third party that can keep control of the situation, and allow you to express yourself. One that can reword things and get her to hopefully listen to reason.

Outside of that, I personally would end up masterbating and see if she actually tries to leave. If she is going to be that hard-line, you might be better off. Plus, it should be real interesting to see how she fares when she goes before a judge and claims she wants a divorce because you were masterbating. I'm pretty sure most will be of the mindset, even women judges, that this is trivial and as such she is putting herself in the situation and earns no compensation from you. It's not like you've been abusing or neglecting her.

Also, as to the professional massage thing. Again do it. Make sure you are using a reputable facility. She is just going to make herself look bad when she starts complaining to everyone about something so standard.

Overall there is a vibe of possessive abusiveness going on here. Not enough I would be willing to outright claim as much, but the underpinnings are there.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

Although my situation is a bit different, i would be willing to wager $100, that you have two things working against you.....religious guilt, and her testosterone is in the toilet (probably below readable on a blood test). 

As others mentioned, there are tactics that will change the behavior, but then you are getting BJ's (or whatever), from someone who feels manipulated into doing it, not because she wants to. You can only hope for her to decide she wants to address this herself, for her own reasons....and then have a robust sex counselor number ready.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Read my thread. Read No More Mr. Nice Guy. Stop making secret contracts that she doesn't know about. I have a similar situation without some of the nuclear stuff about drinking and masturbation (which isnt a conversation per say but...I am not sneaking around either).
> 
> How much do you know about her past...? Upbringing? That is my missing link. Don't give up.


Her father is a Pastor of a conservative Assemblies Of God church. I know that she only had 1 boyfriend before me, and she DID sleep with him from ages 16-18. Apparently he was a real asshole too. I have repeatedly asked if something happened there that maybe is causing this, she has said no. That's the tough part... when I started dating her she decided she wanted to do things the right way by her beliefs and try to start over - wait until marriage etc. I was TOTALLY cool with it... but now I'm seeing that may have been a mistake, because perhaps these issues we could have worked out sooner.

I see your point on the making secret contracts. I guess in one view I didn't feel they were "secret contracts" - she has in the past thrown it in my face in these nuclear blowups that "well why I would dote on you when you don't dote on me in other ways????" In her view point she values "extras" around the house etc. as the type of doting she values, so while not a contract, I guess in my mind I've been trying to do extra special nice stuff to go the extra mile if nothing else to take away that excuse. Perhaps that's a wrong motivation on my part.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> This is where counciling comes in. You need a third party that can keep control of the situation, and allow you to express yourself. One that can reword things and get her to hopefully listen to reason.
> 
> Outside of that, I personally would end up masterbating and see if she actually tries to leave. If she is going to be that hard-line, you might be better off. Plus, it should be real interesting to see how she fares when she goes before a judge and claims she wants a divorce because you were masterbating. I'm pretty sure most will be of the mindset, even women judges, that this is trivial and as such she is putting herself in the situation and earns no compensation from you. It's not like you've been abusing or neglecting her.
> 
> ...


I've suggested counseling. Her response to it is "I'm not doing that - if you don't like what we have then get out; and you'll get to explain to everyone that you broke up a happy marriage over something as stupid and selfish as blow jobs. I am who I am and I won't sit there and have a third person tell me why I should have to do something I don't want to do."

Truthfully I did try the "screw this I'm just going to do my thing" approach you suggest. The result of that was in 2014 when she found out I had masturbated, she called her very religious pastor father/mother, her very religious best friend's family, and I got home from work to an intervention about "my behavior" and how if I did this again they would support her leaving my "perverse and depraved behavior." It was hands down the most humiliating moment of my life to have my in-laws, and family friends sitting in my living room confronting me about MY SEX LIFE. If I was cheating or something I could see it, but relieving myself? WTH. They were adamant it was a "sin" and she could leave me and all this.

I don't want to lose my marriage over something as petty as sex, but as a man it's not as petty as I make it sound either. I guess what I'm saying here is... been there, tried that on the "just do it anyway and see how it goes" - she will absolutely push the nuclear button on it and would have the support of the people in her close circle 100%. They view it as a form of cheating and perversion, and nothing I can say or do will change anyone's mind. In my view, her bringing in outside people over this issue was already one of the biggest violations of trust I could even describe; it was done without my knowledge or consent; and yet she's unwilling to do so with a professional therapist herself. It's almost a perfect ironic representation of the entire situation. Much like the getting angry if I ask... how dare I ask for it in my timing, but it's okay for her reply to be she'll give it in HER timing... which never happens.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

jimbradshawucf said:


> I've suggested counseling. Her response to it is "I'm not doing that - if you don't like what we have then get out. I am who I am and I won't sit there and have a third person tell me why I should have to do something I don't want to do."
> 
> Truthfully I did try the "screw this I'm just going to do my thing" approach you suggest. The result of that was in 2014 when she found out I had masturbated, she called her very religious pastor father/mother, her very religious best friend's family, and I got home from work to an intervention about "my behavior" and how if I did this again they would support her leaving my "perversion." It was hands down the most humiliating moment of my life to have my in-laws, and family friends sitting in my living room confronting me about MY SEX LIFE. If I was cheating or something I could see it, but relieving myself? WTH. They were adamant it was a "sin" and she could leave me and all this.
> 
> I don't want to lose my marriage over something as petty as sex, but as a man it's not as petty as I make it sound either. I guess what I'm saying here is... been there, tried that on the "just do it anyway and see how it goes" - she will absolutely push the nuclear button on it and would have the support of the people in her close circle 100%. They view it as a form of cheating and perversion, and nothing I can say or do will change anyone's mind. In my view, her bringing in outside people over this issue was already one of the biggest violations of trust I could even describe.


If her "support system" is that strong in favor of her views, you are facing a real up hill battle. She has people in her court, telling her she is fully right in her stance. The only opinion she hears differently, is yours. I am sticking to my earlier reply....religious guilt. It is not at all uncommon, and it causes many people to feel that their sexual thoughts are sinful, and they often then try to avoid feeling sexual. The "tell", is how much negativity she has about you masturbating. She does not like to think that your mind is having sexual thoughts....its not about the physical release that bothers her, its what she assumes is going on in your head. 

I would guess, she will not likely ever admit this to you, but she probably has some VERY intense sexual thoughts herself (maybe only on occasion), and they make her feel gross and guilty. She then tries to repress these thoughts. She must also assume your thoughts are equally problematic (to her standards), so she feels disdain at the idea of you having these thoughts. 


I assume....she claims to never masturbate?


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Married_in_michigan said:


> If her "support system" is that strong in favor of her views, you are facing a real up hill battle. She has people in her court, telling her she is fully right in her stance. The only opinion she hears differently, is yours. I am sticking to my earlier reply....religious guilt. It is not at all uncommon, and it causes many people to feel that their sexual thoughts are sinful, and they often then try to avoid feeling sexual. The "tell", is how much negativity she has about you masturbating. She does not like to think that your mind is having sexual thoughts....its not about the physical release that bothers her, its what she assumes is going on in your head.
> 
> I would guess, she will not likely ever admit this to you, but she probably has some VERY intense sexual thoughts herself (maybe only on occasion), and they make her feel gross and guilty. She then tries to repress these thoughts. She must also assume your thoughts are equally problematic (to her standards), so she feels disdain at the idea of you having these thoughts.
> 
> ...


I think you're not wrong whatsoever. You are 100% correct she claims to never do so. But she also makes other claims that don't make any sense to me at all. For instance she claims not to "notice guys" - that she never really thinks of any specific guy as "hot" or whatever. Not even like famous actors, etc. - she claims she "doesn't let her brain go there." I feel like it's a bunch of rubbish. There's no way anyone can just NOT notice if someone is attractive, nor does doing so mean you're cheating or lusting.


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

jimbradshawucf said:


> I think you're not wrong whatsoever. You are 100% correct she claims to never do so. But she also makes other claims that don't make any sense to me at all. For instance she claims not to "notice guys" - that she never really thinks of any specific guy as "hot" or whatever. Not even like famous actors, etc. - she claims she "doesn't let her brain go there." I feel like it's a bunch of rubbish. There's no way anyone can just NOT notice if someone is attractive, nor does doing so mean you're cheating or lusting.


Some people with a lower sex drive dont think AS OFTEN about other people being attractive of having sexual thoughts, so they replace that with "NEVER". I also think it is interesting when someone says "I dont let myself go there". That is also a sign of intentionally repressing. My overall situation is different than yours, but some items in common. My wife has some very specific sexual thoughts when she gets horny, that make her feel guilty...religious guilt. I have learned, sometimes she will intentionally try to distract herself from thinking about sex, hoping to avoid those thoughts and the guilt. She rarely masturbates, which she claims is because she does not have the urge or the need, but I have come to find out, it is only partially that, and partially that she feels guilty of where her mind goes when she masturbates. 

I had the most lucky of experiments that I guy in my situation could have...my wife decided to take testosterone for a year (part of 2018 and 2019), and the entire world changed.....for just that 12 months. It was a double edged sword. Greatest sex of my life for 12 months, but also let me find out that many of the things i suspected for the previous 20 years were spot on. She was so turned on for that 12 months, she told me every secret inside her head about her sexual self. I was happy to feel I finally had validation, but sometimes the answers were not something that left me feeling great.....

Then she stopped the hormones...and everything back to how it used to be...now with the fun added bonus....she claims the things she had said and done during the 12 months did not actually happen...and I misunderstood.

My morale.....if your gut tells you that you know the real reason behind what is going on in your marriage, and it is plausible, it is likely the truth...even if it hurts to realize.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Some people with a lower sex drive dont think AS OFTEN about other people being attractive of having sexual thoughts, so they replace that with "NEVER". I also think it is interesting when someone says "I dont let myself go there". That is also a sign of intentionally repressing. My overall situation is different than yours, but some items in common. My wife has some very specific sexual thoughts when she gets horny, that make her feel guilty...religious guilt. I have learned, sometimes she will intentionally try to distract herself from thinking about sex, hoping to avoid those thoughts and the guilt. She rarely masturbates, which she claims is because she does not have the urge or the need, but I have come to find out, it is only partially that, and partially that she feels guilty of where her mind goes when she masturbates.
> 
> I had the most lucky of experiments that I guy in my situation could have...my wife decided to take testosterone for a year (part of 2018 and 2019), and the entire world changed.....for just that 12 months. It was a double edged sword. Greatest sex of my life for 12 months, but also let me find out that many of the things i suspected for the previous 20 years were spot on. She was so turned on for that 12 months, she told me every secret inside her head about her sexual self. I was happy to feel I finally had validation, but sometimes the answers were not something that left me feeling great.....
> 
> ...


Thanks for your insights. I really appreciate it and I'll definitely give some thought to your perspectives! Truly appreciate it!!


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

How would she know if you did JO say in the shower...just curious? And, yes, secret contracts = “If do XZY she will do ETC” but she has no idea what your ask is — I did this for years until I was sick of myself. Lol


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Married_in_michigan said:


> Some people with a lower sex drive dont think AS OFTEN about other people being attractive of having sexual thoughts, so they replace that with "NEVER". I also think it is interesting when someone says "I dont let myself go there". That is also a sign of intentionally repressing. My overall situation is different than yours, but some items in common. My wife has some very specific sexual thoughts when she gets horny, that make her feel guilty...religious guilt. I have learned, sometimes she will intentionally try to distract herself from thinking about sex, hoping to avoid those thoughts and the guilt. She rarely masturbates, which she claims is because she does not have the urge or the need, but I have come to find out, it is only partially that, and partially that she feels guilty of where her mind goes when she masturbates.
> 
> I had the most lucky of experiments that I guy in my situation could have...my wife decided to take testosterone for a year (part of 2018 and 2019), and the entire world changed.....for just that 12 months. It was a double edged sword. Greatest sex of my life for 12 months, but also let me find out that many of the things i suspected for the previous 20 years were spot on. She was so turned on for that 12 months, she told me every secret inside her head about her sexual self. I was happy to feel I finally had validation, but sometimes the answers were not something that left me feeling great.....
> 
> ...


My DW took some testosterone too - we had 2x in 2 days and I was like..this could be good!! Then she got tired of following the protocol of what to do when etc....soo now I’m am here.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Marriednatlanta said:


> How would she know if you did JO say in the shower...just curious? And, yes, secret contracts = “If do XZY she will do ETC” but she has no idea what your ask is — I did this for years until I was sick of myself. Lol


She is the sort that would walk in and poke her head in the shower JUST to be like "why do you have a boner? you better not be playing with yourself in there - you KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT THAT!!!!" - it's happened before. Plus I hate the idea of lying to her - she asks me every so often "have you done anything to yourself?" - like I would hate to feel like I have to lie to my own wife you know? I thought the whole point of marriage was to have that ONE PERSON you could be 100% open with. Nope.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

jimbradshawucf said:


> She is the sort that would walk in and poke her head in the shower JUST to be like "why do you have a boner? you better not be playing with yourself in there - you KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT THAT!!!!" - it's happened before. Plus I hate the idea of lying to her - she asks me every so often "have you done anything to yourself?" - like I would hate to feel like I have to lie to my own wife you know? I thought the whole point of marriage was to have that ONE PERSON you could be 100% open with. Nope.



That is a little weird. And kinda obsessive. I’d flip the script. Start asking her the same questions. There is something in her history that makes this such a taboo.


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## Tobeknown (Mar 24, 2020)

jimbradshawucf said:


> I apologize in advance for the long read, but I feel it'll help with context. My wife and I were both raised in a fairly religious (Christian) upbringing here in the USA. We were both from an early age hammered into our heads that sex before marriage is wrong, etc. We fell in love and married fairly young, I was 21, she was 20. The context here matters - because unlike many couples, we did not experience the "getting to know if we are compatible sexually" phase of a relationship. Those that say "you should have figured this out before getting married" should be aware of that context.
> 
> With the above said, I am now 38 years old. We have 2 kids, I have a successful career as a VP of IT, she's NEVER had to work full time although she does have a work from home position of her own. Life is pretty good in most ways. We enjoy being around each other, and in general in MOST ways life is good... except in the bedroom. I'm very frustrated about some things, and every single time I bring them up - it's a massive fight. I don't know what to do. Here's the details:
> 
> ...


Daaaaaaaaamn. 
Holy crap you sound like the husband of many a woman's dreams! (You must leave the seat up all the time or something 😂)

I was raised in an extremely rigid Christian home. Sex was dirty, taboo, saved for marriage etc etc. 
I finally ditched that bogus thinking, not God but the controlling bs that made us all feel so dirty somehow, and finally decided to enjoy my body. 
If you need to get off because she's not interested and your not imagining doing it with someone else, then is it cheating?? No. I get it, for those raised Christian like us we want to keep our minds fairly pure and imagining anyone else would feel totally wrong. But you're picturing your wife, then what's the problem?

You can't have a beer because it's evil? BS. I'm pretty sure God won't strike thine self down for having a cold one. I was raised in an totally dry home because it was "evil" and so was Duran Duran. Geez. It's like what do you think they drank when water wasn't pure back in the day? 🙄 And I'm certain the devil didn't claim my soul because I listen to "worldly music" and want to have passionate sex every night with my husband.

My sister and I were discussing our divorces years ago and we know that we'd not have married them except for the fact that it was sinful not to. I was so afraid of wrath that I married someone who really wasn't the best choice and then stayed, miserable for 15 years because divorce is a "sin". I'm done with feeling so tied down to unhappiness with someone completely incompatible with me. 

I'm sorry to say this but your wife sounds very very controlling. Someone who is micromanaging your life isn't a partnership. It's a prison and it's easy to feel very trapped in your situation. And to tell hey the truth and she is furious, well that's just a tactic to get you to drop the subject or pay the price of an argument. 

You sound amazing. You sound like you're really trying to make her happy and you just want to feel happy and fulfilled yourself. But you clearly aren't. And there's no trust with her and I can't help wonder why? A professional massage isn't for a happy ending... She's very insecure and very controlling.

Maybe she doesn't like giving BJ's whatever, but to stomp off like a child is so manipulative. Geez. And for all that effort I'd have NO issue making my hubby happy. 

A healthy partnership is reciprocated joys, including sexual ones. I want to please him and he wants to please me. It's not a selfish one sided thing or else I'd want out. But that's just me.

Have you tried counseling? I'm thinking you need that. And you need one who isn't some prude either. Someone well balanced who can tell you both the truth.


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## Tobeknown (Mar 24, 2020)

jimbradshawucf said:


> She is the sort that would walk in and poke her head in the shower JUST to be like "why do you have a boner? you better not be playing with yourself in there - you KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT THAT!!!!" - it's happened before. Plus I hate the idea of lying to her - she asks me every so often "have you done anything to yourself?" - like I would hate to feel like I have to lie to my own wife you know? I thought the whole point of marriage was to have that ONE PERSON you could be 100% open with. Nope.


Holy crap!!!

I'm sorry but she's off the charts controlling. Is she your Mama? Does she put you in the corner when you're naughty??

I feel for you. I really do. I'm sorry I'm being very facetious but that kind of control would drive anyone mad. 

A good wife would jump in there with you and help you make good use of that 😉


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jimbradshawucf,

*Is this your real name? If it is, you might want to change it to remain anonymous. Let let me know what you want your user named changed to.*


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Tobeknown said:


> Daaaaaaaaamn.
> Holy crap you sound like the husband of many a woman's dreams! (You must leave the seat up all the time or something 😂)
> 
> I was raised in an extremely rigid Christian home. Sex was dirty, taboo, saved for marriage etc etc.
> ...


Thank you for your honest perspective on this. I really truly appreciate it! I have suggested counseling, and the response has been
quote - "I'm not doing that - if you don't like what we have then get out; and you'll get to explain to everyone that you broke up a happy marriage over something as stupid and selfish as blow jobs. I am who I am and I won't sit there and have a third person tell me why I should have to do something I don't want to do."

But what's funny about the above, is about 6 years ago I had a few weak moments, said screw this - and did end up masturbating. She found out, and next thing I know I got home from work to an intervention about my sinful and perverse behavior with her parents, her best friend's family, and another couple that frankly I have no idea why they were there. Apparently it's NOT okay for HER to go to a mutually agreed upon professional counselor, with a goal of mutual respectful and marriage building; but it's completely okay with for her to be calling in people without my knowledge to blind side me and humiliate me in my own living room.

I know I sound a little bitter in this specific post. It's just very hard now that I'm actually putting my thoughts to paper... emotions coming to the surface that I've tried to take deep breaths and not let boil over for years!


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> jimbradshawucf,
> 
> *Is this your real name? If it is, you might want to change it to remain anonymous. Let let me know what you want your user named changed to.*


I really appreciate you looking out for me. I used my Mom's last name - not my real one. If she finds this thread, I'm not overly worried about it at this point. I'm not saying anything untrue so it is what it is as far as I'm concerned.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jimbradshawucf said:


> but she would NEVER just be the type to say "hey honey I know you've had a stressful day, lay back I'm going to dote on you" type of thing. She just won't


This stands out to me. I get that you are saying that she won't do things even non-sexual things like a back rub.

But the above quoted bit is different. I have a very good sex drive, at least once a day. But I have never done anything like "hey honey I know you've had a stressful day, lay back I'm going to dote on you". 

Do you say that sort of thing to her and the service her and you don't do anything sexual for your own pleasure?

It's never even crossed my mind to do say/do something like that. I've never had a guy say anything like that to me either. To me, sex is a mutual act.

I really don't think there is anything wrong with her never doing the "hey honey I know you've had a stressful day, lay back I'm going to dote on you" type of thing. 

Now not doing things like giving the occasional back rub, etc. That's not cool.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

A person married or not has to have some privacy, but because you have let this evolve there's no chance. 

You know there's a time to call something what it is over. And for a matter of fact when she spreads of why you left weather to the elder her family or the dog, she breaks all the Christian rules 

You deserve a normal loving life. I say call it over. Forget the counselor and forget her. She will never change her mind. And as far as the church is concerned, if they come down on you leave that!! church and find one that lives the Christian values and ways, and not something that fit a crooked and twisted belief.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> This stands out to me. I get that you are saying that she won't do things even non-sexual things like a back rub.
> 
> But the above quoted bit is different. I have a very good sex drive, at least once a day. But I have never done anything like "hey honey I know you've had a stressful day, lay back I'm going to dote on you".
> 
> ...


Very fair question - and I respect your underlying point on it! Yes I have done that for her quite a few times. If she has a hard day and I know it, I'll absolutely be like "hey why don't you just lay down and I'll give you a back rub - relax I love you." Have done it just this week actually once. I have also done it with going down on her etc. just to be nice when she was very clear she was tired and didn't want to have to actually have sex. I've definitely given without feeling I needed to receive; and I don't feel she should feel she has to reciprocate - but I don't understand being angry when asked for basics I guess is where I was going with that. She's actually said in her mind giving a back rub is sexual in her mind and that's why she doesn't give them unless she's prepared to have sex. I don't agree.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

It may be your W sex drive. It may be her upbringing. It may be a bit of both. But, at the end of the day, Biblically speaking, flying the freak flag with one's spouse is ok. Reciprocation is nice. Specifically when one does not ask for it. Have you asked your W why she does not reciprocate with a back rub or such?


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Yeswecan said:


> It may be your W sex drive. It may be her upbringing. It may be a bit of both. But, at the end of the day, Biblically speaking, flying the freak flag with one's spouse is ok. Reciprocation is nice. Specifically when one does not ask for it. Have you asked your W why she does not reciprocate?


When I try she just gets mad. She says it's gross and perverted, and that even though she likes when I do it to her if it means not being asked to reciprocate she'd prefer I don't do it. Other than "it's gross" followed by anger for bringing it up and making me feel like I'm a creep - I have never gotten an actual legitimate answer out of her in 16 years of trying.


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## Tobeknown (Mar 24, 2020)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Thank you for your honest perspective on this. I really truly appreciate it! I have suggested counseling, and the response has been
> quote - "I'm not doing that - if you don't like what we have then get out; and you'll get to explain to everyone that you broke up a happy marriage over something as stupid and selfish as blow jobs. I am who I am and I won't sit there and have a third person tell me why I should have to do something I don't want to do."
> 
> But what's funny about the above, is about 6 years ago I had a few weak moments, said screw this - and did end up masturbating. She found out, and next thing I know I got home from work to an intervention about my sinful and perverse behavior with her parents, her best friend's family, and another couple that frankly I have no idea why they were there. Apparently it's NOT okay for HER to go to a mutually agreed upon professional counselor, with a goal of mutual respectful and marriage building; but it's completely okay with for her to be calling in people without my knowledge to blind side me and humiliate me in my own living room.
> ...


What you just described is one of the worst case of spiritual and personal abuse and attack that I've heard in awhile!! 
What she did was NOT OK! And for everyone else to think it was ok gives me the heeby jeebies too! You masterbated, you didn't have a freaking affair or an orgy!! Gah. 

It's not sinful to enjoy your own body, in fact, if she wants to get all biblical it really talks about the importance of "coming together" so as not to be tempted etc. So she's actually not fulfilling her duties according to scripture. But I can see how twisting things to fit her own narrative comes into play with her. 

She refused counseling. You are being totally and utterly controlled in a way that is terribly abusive. Mind control. Humiliation. Degradation. Are you seeing my point here? You are in marriage prison. Nothing you do will change this and you are threatened with "just leave then and I'll tell everyone YOU'RE to blame" when in fact she's owning nothing that she's done to make you entirely miserable. I don't know how she managed to capture you but you were very very young then. And less wise. And afraid of sinning. I get it. I've been there... Sigh.

You are in a prison that is a fact. I'm sorry. What a horrible thing to finally realize when you allowed yourself to feel what you'd been stuffing down all those years.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Tobeknown said:


> What you just described is one of the worst case of spiritual and personal abuse and attack that I've heard in awhile!!
> What she did was NOT OK! And for everyone else to think it was ok gives me the heeby jeebies too! You masterbated, you didn't have a freaking affair or an orgy!! Gah.
> 
> It's not sinful to enjoy your own body, in fact, if she wants to get all biblical it really talks about the importance of "coming together" so as not to be tempted etc. So she's actually not fulfilling her duties according to scripture. But I can see how twisting things to fit her own narrative comes into play with her.
> ...


And the tough part is... knowing what is the right move here. I really hate the idea of walking out of a 16 year marriage, with 2 kids in the equation (ages 14 and 11); but I don't think I can handle another 16 years of it. I've honestly been telling myself for quite a while "when the youngest is old enough I'm done with this marriage" - but it's just hard you know? And to add another crazy puzzle piece to the mix... my parents are part of the same religious background, and would PROBABLY agree with her as well on this if doodoo hit the fan. Maybe I'm sounding like a total whiner here - but I feel like I have two choices... put up with being treated in a way that I don't feel is right whatsoever and be completely unhappy. Or option 2 - pretty much give the middle finger to everyone I know to make what I feel would probably be the first actually selfish move in this entire scenario, which of course would get used by all of them to simply say "see he IS as selfish as she is claiming!!" and nobody, including my own family, will understand or agree with my perspective of why I'd be ending the marriage.

It's seriously one of the worst feelings and I have no idea what I should do. I only see 2 options. They both suck - really bad. I refuse to be a cheater - I won't compromise my own integrity to entertain that as an option. Even if I'm being mistreated, I don't feel that doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is ever right.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Your a grown man act like one. It's no wonder you are being played. Tell your parents to keep there nose out of your marriage.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Tilted 1 said:


> Your a grown man act like one. It's no wonder you are being played. Tell your parents to keep there nose out of your marriage.


Fair enough. Appreciate the feedback.


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## Tobeknown (Mar 24, 2020)

Tobeknown said:


> What you just described is one of the worst case of spiritual and personal abuse and attack that I've heard in awhile!!
> What she did was NOT OK! And for everyone else to think it was ok gives me the heeby jeebies too! You masterbated, you didn't have a freaking affair or an orgy!! Gah.
> 
> It's not sinful to enjoy your own body, in fact, if she wants to get all biblical it really talks about the importance of "coming together" so as not to be tempted etc. So she's actually not fulfilling her duties according to scripture. But I can see how twisting things to fit her own narrative comes into play with her.
> ...





jimbradshawucf said:


> And the tough part is... knowing what is the right move here. I really hate the idea of walking out of a 16 year marriage, with 2 kids in the equation (ages 14 and 11); but I don't think I can handle another 16 years of it. I've honestly been telling myself for quite a while "when the youngest is old enough I'm done with this marriage" - but it's just hard you know? And to add another crazy puzzle piece to the mix... my parents are part of the same religious background, and would PROBABLY agree with her as well on this if doodoo hit the fan. Maybe I'm sounding like a total whiner here - but I feel like I have two choices... put up with being treated in a way that I don't feel is right whatsoever and be completely unhappy. Or option 2 - pretty much give the middle finger to everyone I know to make what I feel would probably be the first actually selfish move in this entire scenario, which of course would get used by all of them to simply say "see he IS as selfish as she is claiming!!" and nobody, including my own family, will understand or agree with my perspective.
> 
> It's seriously one of the worst feelings and I have no idea what I should do. I only see 2 options. They both suck - really bad. I refuse to be a cheater - I won't compromise my own integrity to entertain that as an option. Even if I'm being mistreated, I don't feel that doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is ever right.


I was in your boat 6 years ago. Married an AOGs son and our marriage was awful. So abusive. I was in agony inside all those long, lonely, painful years.

Thankfully he cheated and I caught him so I finally could leave but how sad is it that, that was the only way I felt that I was "allowed" to leave? 

I've been on a journey since to rediscover God, the same one I've always known, but without all the shame and guilt and controlling garbage that the Christian community so pushes on us. I finally feel free. I feel at peace. I don't feel dirty because I like sex. A lot!! And it's ok... I'm not gross or a pervert or anything. I'm a person with much passion who wants to share that with one person who I love. And to share my deepest fears and goals and dreams and concerns and to be truly known (hence my name on here). 

My hubby finally left his very controlling wife after 20 years on the advice of a Christian counselor and she sounds exactly like your wife. He was a good man, a good hubby and father, but he was being crushed like a bird in an angry grip. It was his only path to freedom. He felt so sad all the time, nothing he did made her happy, and he wasn't allowed to be himself and there was no telling her anything about his inner struggles or thoughts because she'd use it against him.

No marriage is perfect. Mine isn't. But at least we talk about issues and act like grown ups when we do. Sex is a big issue, when it's an issue, and it's something that you can't just sweep under the rug. You have to deal with it or else you feel rejected, confused, lonely etc. 

I wish I could offer a magic wand to help you but you are in a conundrum. To be free you will have to be very strong and finally say enough is enough. And you will receive the backlash of many who didn't live with her. But... You will be free. Finally. To be respected as a human being and loved for who you are, exactly as you are, and hopefully one day you'll be able to feel the joy of desires without feeling like a freak... Which you aren't. Not at all.


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## Tobeknown (Mar 24, 2020)

I should clarify AOGs pastors son.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Tobeknown said:


> I was in your boat 6 years ago. Married an AOGs son and our marriage was awful. So abusive. I was in agony inside all those long, lonely, painful years.
> 
> Thankfully he cheated and I caught him so I finally could leave but how sad is it that, that was the only way I felt that I was "allowed" to leave?
> 
> ...


I think it's becoming obvious what I need to do. Thank you all for your insights!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Every single time I have EVER (and it's been often for 16 years) tried to discuss my feelings like an adult, she gets FURIOUS. It becomes the following talking points:
> 
> "I will give those things in my own time and definitely won't if you ask me for them!" - except she does not, and has a 16 year history of NOT giving them "in her own time." Have I asked her for them before? Yes absolutely. That started fights. So then I tried going without asking. At one point - it was 2 straight years of me not asking. When I finally got around to saying *"hey honey I've been trying not to ask - but since you're not interested in sex tonight, and I'm really backed up - could you perhaps consider giving me a BJ?" *- all out war broke out about how she could not understand why I would ask this and how selfish I am.


I read more of your post.....

I just asked my guy if he as ever asked any women for a bj like this. His reply is no, it's selfish and insulting to the woman. Now he's no prude, far from it.

If he, or any guy in my past, had asked me that, again, I would be offended. To me it makes me feel like I'm being treated as a prostitute. And keep in mind that i have a good/healthy sex drive and am not a prude.

I completely understand why your wife would be offended by this.



jimbradshawucf said:


> "I give to you in so many ways and it seems you only care about this!" - usually she's referring to being a good mother (she is), good around the house (she is) etc. - except to me, those are part of being an adult. Not a spouse. I as a husband want that intimate and sex life time with my wife... she can't seem to understand that making the kids dinner does not equate to giving sexually to her husband, and every time I try to talk to her about it, I'm the selfish asshole for bringing it up and it becomes a conversation dominated by her where I can not get two words in edge wise, and eventually end up apologizing for bringing it up just to get back to some normalcy / peace.


What was your sex life like before the children were born? How has it changed over time?

What it sounds like to me is that neither of you are getting your most important emotional needs met so you two exist in different universes now. You mostly only come together dealing with the business of family. There is no no-sexual intimacy. And when there is no non-sexual intimacy, there is also no (or almost no) sexual intimacy.



jimbradshawucf said:


> I've even tried going all out doting on her asking nothing in return. Over the past week during this Coronavirus lockdown, I have personally cleaned the garage top to bottom. Washed/waxed the floors in the house. Detailed her car out top to bottom including waxing it for her. Cut the boys' hair. Bought her flowers. Cooked dinner 3 nights this week so she wouldn't have to. Given her a 45 minute back rub - without any expectation of sex or anything. Watched HER shows several nights that I HATE (stupid reality stuff) when she knows I can't stand watching that stuff, but tried to snuggle on the couch and spend time with her doing what SHE wanted. All the above - then last night I asked if she was in the mood - she said no. I a*sked if she would consider helping me out - boom war all over again about how selfish I am for asking,* that it'll happen in her own timing (same talking points which after 16 years I don't believe her timing exists), and that now it's obvious to her I was only being nice to get what I wanted... which wasn't true.


Yea, I'll bet. You already know that she's not going to do that. So why ask. I don't think your issue is that she won't give you a bj on demand. I think the issue is that your marriage completely lacks passion, to include sexual passion. From what I gather, your issue is not really what she will not give you a bj on demand, but that your sex life sucks, you are rightly frustrated.

All those things that you did this week during the lockdown. Those are are "acts of service". Apparently "acts of service" are not her love language. You need to find out her love language. There is an old saying that while simplistic makes a good point. "Women need a reason to have sex, men just need a place."

There are things you can do to turn this around. You need to find out her love language. And then you needs to work to restructure your relationship. I'm saying that you need to do it because you the person who is here asking. She's not here so I can only give the suggestions to you. There are three books that can help you immensely, read them in the order I'm posting here:

*The 5 Love Languages Hardcover Special Edition: The Secret to Love That Lasts *by Gary Chapman

Love Busters by Dr. Harley

His Needs, Her Needs by Dr. Harley.

In the end, the idea is to get the two of you working together to restructure your relationship. But you are going to have to take the lead because you are one who is having the issues.

The idea is to first figure out her love language and start doing those things. It will build the non-sexual intimacy that she needs... women need non-sexual intimacy to want sexual-intimacy. (That's the 5 languages book.)

Then read the two next books in that order and do the work they say to do. The idea of "Love Busters" is to identify and stop doing the things that are hurting your relationship. Then with "His Needs, Her Needs", you figure out each other's needs and and start meeting them. After you do all this, she should be much more willing to work on the relationship with you. Ask her to read the "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs" books and the two of you do the work together.

I'd give it 6 months. If things don't get a lot better by that time, they probably never will.

If you do that, you will restructure to build a strong, passionate relationship. If you are not willing to do these things you might was well file for divorce because she's not going to change and your frustration and resentment will only grow.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

You've got to tell her clearly in a short, clear, non harsh manner, and nicely, because this short (I'm really emphasizing short) one sided conversation is just to share with your spouse, that:

Dear, rather than continue to create arguments with you on different topics, I've come to a decision that I've thought about, reflected on, and these things don't make me a bad guy, aren't anti my religious beliefs and are things in my life that as a grown man, adult living up to responsibilities, one who cares deeply for my chosen wife, non of those things change with my decisions.

As a grown responsible man I've decided I don't need your permission to have some normal adult activities in my life and I'm having in my life:

A cold beer or two, maybe more after or while working in the yard, having a bbq, or just want one. It's ok.

I just might and will masturbate time to time if I'm really in the mood, and you can join me or not, I wish you would but I'm stopping trying to negotiate you into having sex.

I'm going to have sex with a woman I care about a couple times a week, or more, or less, as I want. I want it to be you but I'm not a monk, it's normal, and not only ok but to be celebrated, a man and wife enjoying each other often this way.

I'm not going to continue to play let's make a deal to have sex or negotiate you into having sex, you will or you won't, that's your call.

I like sex in various ways with a woman I care about, including touching, rubbing, give and take, BJs, HJs, my oral on her, all my attention on her and good sex, as we give and take, and grow sexually enjoying each other. And I choose you but again I'm stopping trying to negotiate and talk you into sexually growing with your husband, it's your call. I want to grow with you in having great sex, but I'm going to continue to grow in thus, whether you do or not, and I don't need your permission to grow and have adult relationships with an adult woman.

I'm not going to continue to try and earn sex by "doing extra tasks and chores to negotiate having sex" or try and talk you into fooling around, or really even to listen to some of your controlling accusations of me.

I'm just sharing I'm going to continue to live my life as a responsible man, who loves his wife, and wants her to be with me and come along and grow with me, but I'm going to grow and have some additional adult things in my life, I hope and truly desire you to come along.
(end)

Or something like that but hitting all the topics.

Don't have this late at night or in the bed. And after the conversation go something in another room in the house because you aren't starting an argument or discussion, you're just sharing where you are and how you're moving forward in your life and if necessary be disregarding her controlling arguments, youve6grown past that.

And if she says then leave the house tell her this isn't a meant to start an argument talk, you're not mad at her, and won't be getting mad at her, and if you acting like the adult you are bothers her so much then she can leave, it's her choice, you hope she grows a bit too, but say you understand and won't stop her from leaving, you understand she as a grown woman has to make her own choices.

Say this just once, then continue to be the good husband you are, and get a few beers in the house, masturbate if you want, and all without rancor, and her actions are on her.

The sex will work its8way out, she has choices to make, but stop all the trying to get her approval on things you know are ok. Just live, normally, and you'll likely see her change and grow.

If she doesn't and she wants a separation then make her be the one to leave the house, she has to own her choices.

Otherwise if you don't have this clear talk with her, you're presently looking at how the next 20 years will be, don't doubt it.

Best,


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> I read more of your post.....
> 
> I just asked my guy if he as ever asked any women for a bj like this. His reply is no, it's selfish and insulting to the woman. Now he's no prude, far from it.
> 
> ...


I truly appreciate your honest and well thought out reply! I'll take this advice (even the corrective advice) to thought and mull it over! Thank you for being honest and sharing your view! To answer the "pre kids" question - it's hard to say. We got pregnant 3 months after we got married. I don't remember there being a pre-kids sex life that much... but I will say, on our honeymoon I remember her being far more giving than she is now.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Thank you for your honest perspective on this. I really truly appreciate it! I have suggested counseling, and the response has been
> quote - "I'm not doing that - if you don't like what we have then get out; and you'll get to explain to everyone that you broke up a happy marriage over something as stupid and selfish as blow jobs. I am who I am and I won't sit there and have a third person tell me why I should have to do something I don't want to do."
> 
> But what's funny about the above, is about 6 years ago I had a few weak moments, said screw this - and did end up masturbating. She found out, and next thing I know I got home from work to an intervention about my sinful and perverse behavior with her parents, her best friend's family, and another couple that frankly I have no idea why they were there. Apparently it's NOT okay for HER to go to a mutually agreed upon professional counselor, with a goal of mutual respectful and marriage building; but it's completely okay with for her to be calling in people without my knowledge to blind side me and humiliate me in my own living room.
> ...


This is the thing. This is who she is.

You can do the things that i suggest in the above post, but at the core, it seem your wife was raised in a strict religious home and actually believes all that prudish nonsense. There are parts of this that you will have to accept if you stay with her.

Does you wife go to church often? Do is there a pastor who she respects and would be willing to go to as a counselor?


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

I also put my foot in my mouth on more than one occasion, but to hold it against me for 16 yrs. Talk about not being fair.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> You've got to tell her clearly in a short, clear, non harsh manner, and nicely, because this short (I'm really emphasizing short) one sided conversation is just to share with your spouse, that:
> 
> Dear, rather than continue to create arguments with you on different topics, I've come to a decision that I've thought about, reflected on, and these things don't make me a bad guy, aren't anti my religious beliefs and are things in my life that as a grown man, adult living up to responsibilities, one who cares deeply for my chosen wife, non of those things change with my decisions.
> 
> ...


Well thought out reply. Thank you for sharing how you suggest handling this! You're all giving me a lot to think about.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> This is the thing. This is who she is.
> 
> You can do the things that i suggest in the above post, but at the core, it seem your wife was raised in a strict religious home and actually believes all that prudish nonsense. There are parts of this that you will have to accept if you stay with her.
> 
> Does you wife go to church often? Do is there a pastor who she respects and would be willing to go to as a counselor?


She does go to church regularly. Our pastor is literally a direct report to her father (her father is in charge of the district) so anything we talk to him about will get back to Daddy, and worse he completely preaches the same worldview as her Dad so that wouldn't work out. I've tried the counselor suggestion from a known Christian marriage and sex counselor outside our church circle only to have her refuse and tell me she isn't willing to listen to someone tell her to do things she doesn't want to do. She isn't willing to do it.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Or more than a week, apologize and remove that horrible sin. Sorry I just couldn't help myself.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> I read more of your post.....
> 
> I just asked my guy if he as ever asked any women for a bj like this. His reply is no, it's selfish and insulting to the woman. Now he's no prude, far from it.
> 
> ...



I completely agree - we operate as "the business of the family" and no passion. I don't know that you could have hit the nail on the head harder. It may have been wrong of me to ask for certain actions - point taken - but I believe it stems from wanting to feel wanted. I haven't felt desirable, wanted, or even attractive as a man to her (or anyone) in years. Even though I'm a former college baseball player, keep myself in great physical shape, and try to be nice and respectful. I just want to feel wanted, and desired. It feels like I have to push/beg for physical affection and then it's treated like a chore. I miss being seen a certain way... does that make sense?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> You've got to tell her clearly in a short, clear, non harsh manner, and nicely, because this short (I'm really emphasizing short) one sided conversation is just to share with your spouse, that:
> 
> Dear, rather than continue to create arguments with you on different topics, I've come to a decision that I've thought about, reflected on, and these things don't make me a bad guy, aren't anti my religious beliefs and are things in my life that as a grown man, adult living up to responsibilities, one who cares deeply for my chosen wife, non of those things change with my decisions.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with this.

This is the talk that goes along with the "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs" work. You need to very clearly tell her your needs. You need to tell her that her controlling behavior is a huge love buster. If she will not respect that, then you need to re-evaluate whether or not you can stay in a marriage where your needs are pushed aside. She's not your mother, she's your wife.

If you were an alcoholic, or spent a lot of time using porn, etc then it would a different issue. But from what you have posted, your expectations are reasonable. Well, except for the one I've already addressed, but I understand that particular one is born out or your very reasonable frustration with your sex life.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> I completely agree with this.
> 
> This is the talk that goes along with the "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs" work. You need to very clearly tell her your needs. You need to tell her that her controlling behavior is a huge love buster. If she will not respect that, then you need to re-evaluate whether or not you can stay in a marriage where your needs are pushed aside. She's not your mother, she's your wife.
> 
> If you were an alcoholic, or spent a lot of time using porn, etc then it would a different issue. But from what you have posted, your expectations are reasonable. Well, except for the one I've already addressed, but I understand that particular one is born out or your very reasonable frustration with your sex life.


Agree. It was a well thought out reply. I do not abuse porn, or alcohol, so that is definitely not the issue here.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jimbradshawucf said:


> She does go to church regularly. Our pastor is literally a direct report to her father (her father is in charge of the district) so anything we talk to him about will get back to Daddy, and worse he completely preaches the same worldview as her Dad so that wouldn't work out. I've tried the counselor suggestion from a known Christian marriage and sex counselor outside our church circle only to have her refuse and tell me she isn't willing to listen to someone tell her to do things she doesn't want to do. She isn't willing to do it.


Wow, your pastor would tell her father the intimate things that you share with him? What ever happened to the 'confessional' being between you, you pastor and God? Not sure I'd say in the church in which my pastor/priest was a gossip about the most private things.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> Wow, your pastor would tell her father the intimate things that you share with him? What ever happened to the 'confessional' being between you, you pastor and God? Not sure I'd say in the church in which my pastor/priest was a gossip about the most private things.


I feel it would likely occur yes. Our Pastor literally reports to her father - and as I said his beliefs mirror her father's anyway.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

jimbradshawucf said:


> When I try she just gets mad. She says it's gross and perverted, and that even though she likes when I do it to her if it means not being asked to reciprocate she'd prefer I don't do it. Other than "it's gross" followed by anger for bringing it up and making me feel like I'm a creep - I have never gotten an actual legitimate answer out of her in 16 years of trying.


It may be a good time for counseling. This is not a healthy marriage. Your W is bringing up her wall and defenses for some reason.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

jimbradshawucf said:


> She does go to church regularly. Our pastor is literally a direct report to her father (her father is in charge of the district) so anything we talk to him about will get back to Daddy, and worse he completely preaches the same worldview as her Dad so that wouldn't work out. I've tried the counselor suggestion from a known Christian marriage and sex counselor outside our church circle only to have her refuse and tell me she isn't willing to listen to someone tell her to do things she doesn't want to do. She isn't willing to do it.


Advise your W you are not willing to live your life in this fashion. In short, willing to lose the marriage to save it.

Time to find a new church as well.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I am rarely one to advise that someone give an ultimatum, but in your case I suggest thats exactly what you should do. I do think the others have given you outstanding advice....but...you wrote a lot in your posts. So from where I stand you have already tried all of this stuff. No point in repeating the same thing. She simply isn't going to "get it". So you can either accept this as your life, or say enough is enough. Say to her, "I have tried to reason with you and I love you, but this isn't the life I want, and its unfair to me, you either make an effort or I am filing for divorce". 

I think the tragedy of this situation in my eyes is that if you were to divorce her, she is going to realize that all of the things you are asking of her are normal things that married couples do. Does she have any religious female friends that can have a "talk" with her. Because her expectations about what a marriage looks like when it comes to intimacy is way off. Good luck to you man. All I can say is if you were my friend I would tell you to leave her, and if she wants to make changes you don't have to go through with it. But right now I'd say she needs a jolt. A talking to has already been done over and over. Time to escalate this.


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## Tobeknown (Mar 24, 2020)

ReformedHubby said:


> I am rarely one to advise that someone give an ultimatum, but in your case I suggest thats exactly what you should do. I do think the others have given you outstanding advice....but...you wrote a lot in your posts. So from where I stand you have already tried all of this stuff. No point in repeating the same thing. She simply isn't going to "get it". So you can either accept this as your life, or say enough is enough. Say to her, "I have tried to reason with you and I love you, but this isn't the life I want, and its unfair to me, you either make an effort or I am filing for divorce".
> 
> I think the tragedy of this situation in my eyes is that if you were to divorce her, she is going to realize that all of the things you are asking of her are normal things that married couples do. Does she have any religious female friends that can have a "talk" with her. Because her expectations about what a marriage looks like when it comes to intimacy is way off. Good luck to you man. All I can say is if you were my friend I would tell you to leave her, and if she wants to make changes you don't have to go through with it. But right now I'd say she needs a jolt. A talking to has already been done over and over. Time to escalate this.


I'm with you...I don't like ultimatums either but there comes a point that you can't take anymore.
I had a counselor once tell me that "within every marriage that is struggling, they're can come a point of no return when the damage isn't able to be fixed". He is a very respected Christian counselor who knows that divorce isn't what anyone wants, but sometimes, it's what's necessary. 

Maybe I'm biased towards the OP here but if my husband did all those things for me and actually wanted me and wasn't cheating, into porn or an alcoholic, I'd think I'd won the lottery. I don't understand why she won't see that she's totally unreasonable and doing things that are so far out there (I'm still in shock of the crazy intervention over masturbating!!). Then again look at her family and the position of power they have in the church. She doesn't have to change her behavior because daddy will back her up and the husband will be beaten into submission. 

I'd escape my prison while I still have some youth left in me. Marriage isn't a death sentence, it's supposed to be a partnership where you both have an equal voice and you both actually hear each other.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Holy cow I feel sorry for you.

You sound like a really nice guy and someone who doesn't deserve to be humiliated in front of anyone. 

I am not religious so your post really frustrates and saddens me because I know a lot of TAM members are religious and enjoy a healthy sex life.

I'm trying to find a post about a website written by a Christian wife who writes about her married sex life. In her blog she writes about how she used to feel about sex before realizing how important it is for her marriage and intimacy. 

Hopefully I can find the blog or hopefully, someone else finds it and post it in here. 

I cannot offer any religious advice. I would deal with your situation in a different matter. I wouldn't put up with the humiliation, the control, and the paranoia your wife shows.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

jimbradshawucf said:


> And the tough part is... knowing what is the right move here. I really hate the idea of walking out of a 16 year marriage, with 2 kids in the equation (ages 14 and 11); but I don't think I can handle another 16 years of it. I've honestly been telling myself for quite a while "when the youngest is old enough I'm done with this marriage" - but it's just hard you know? And to add another crazy puzzle piece to the mix... my parents are part of the same religious background, and would PROBABLY agree with her as well on this if doodoo hit the fan. Maybe I'm sounding like a total whiner here - but I feel like I have two choices... put up with being treated in a way that I don't feel is right whatsoever and be completely unhappy. Or option 2 - pretty much give the middle finger to everyone I know to make what I feel would probably be the first actually selfish move in this entire scenario, which of course would get used by all of them to simply say "see he IS as selfish as she is claiming!!" and nobody, including my own family, will understand or agree with my perspective of why I'd be ending the marriage.
> 
> It's seriously one of the worst feelings and I have no idea what I should do. I only see 2 options. They both suck - really bad. I refuse to be a cheater - I won't compromise my own integrity to entertain that as an option. Even if I'm being mistreated, I don't feel that doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is ever right.





Married_in_michigan said:


> Some people with a lower sex drive dont think AS OFTEN about other people being attractive of having sexual thoughts, so they replace that with "NEVER". I also think it is interesting when someone says "I dont let myself go there". That is also a sign of intentionally repressing. My overall situation is different than yours, but some items in common. My wife has some very specific sexual thoughts when she gets horny, that make her feel guilty...religious guilt. I have learned, sometimes she will intentionally try to distract herself from thinking about sex, hoping to avoid those thoughts and the guilt. She rarely masturbates, which she claims is because she does not have the urge or the need, but I have come to find out, it is only partially that, and partially that she feels guilty of where her mind goes when she masturbates.
> 
> I had the most lucky of experiments that I guy in my situation could have...my wife decided to take testosterone for a year (part of 2018 and 2019), and the entire world changed.....for just that 12 months. It was a double edged sword. Greatest sex of my life for 12 months, but also let me find out that many of the things i suspected for the previous 20 years were spot on. She was so turned on for that 12 months, she told me every secret inside her head about her sexual self. I was happy to feel I finally had validation, but sometimes the answers were not something that left me feeling great.....
> 
> ...


Why did she stop taking the hormones?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

jimbradshawucf said:


> I completely agree - we operate as "the business of the family" and no passion. I don't know that you could have hit the nail on the head harder. It may have been wrong of me to ask for certain actions - point taken - but I believe it stems from wanting to feel wanted.* I haven't felt desirable, wanted, or even attractive as a man *to her (or anyone) in years. Even though I'm a former college baseball player, keep myself in great physical shape, and try to be nice and respectful. I just want to feel wanted, and desired. It feels like I have to push/beg for physical affection and then it's treated like a chore. I miss being seen a certain way... does that make sense?


You are absolutely right, there is no indication that she is attracted to you. You are not doing the things. . . you are not being the person that is attractive. 
So tell me about your baseball team. How many nights per week do you spend playing and practicing? How often do you hit the batting cages to work on your swing? How long is the season each year? Do you also follow the major league? What was your batting average last year? And possibly most important, are your boys in the sport? Or, do you support them in the activity they have chosen? You may think that these questions have nothing to do with your marriage relationship. Humor me for a bit. This could be the key.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Truthfully I did try the "screw this I'm just going to do my thing" approach you suggest. The result of that was in 2014 when she found out I had masturbated, she called her very religious pastor father/mother, her very religious best friend's family, and I got home from work to an intervention about "my behavior" and how if I did this again they would support her leaving my "perverse and depraved behavior." It was hands down the most humiliating moment of my life to have my in-laws, and family friends sitting in my living room confronting me about MY SEX LIFE. If I was cheating or something I could see it, but relieving myself? WTH. They were adamant it was a "sin" and she could leave me and all this.


.
Wow. Just wow. Please ignore my previous post. Looks like you have an abusive one.
I can say that if my spouse ever did something like that to me, I'd tell her mom/dad they should meet her at the Greyhound bus station. Then I'd pack her up and buy her a one way home.
Has she ever had an "intervention" about her pre marital sex in her teens? Threaten to set that one up an see how she appreciates the sentiment. I feel for you. That must have been humiliating beyond compare.
If I were you, I think I would start developing an exit plan. Have a sit down with her, outline your requirements. Tell her that your grown and if you want a beer, you will have one. Tell her that if she doesn't want you to masturbate, then she needs to keep you drained. If she doesn't like it, tell her you have a new box of HD Hefty's she can pack her **** in, she knows where the door is, and she can feel free to use it. Then execute your plan if necessary.
As a suggestion,you might explore one of the Christian blogs dealing with sex for perspective. Here is one for example:









Home | The Forgiven Wife


I have moved to Honeycomb & Spice. You are welcome to peruse the archives here, but there will be no new blog posts. BLOG PODCAST …




forgivenwife.com


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

jimbradshawucf said:


> She does go to church regularly. Our pastor is literally a direct report to her father (her father is in charge of the district) so anything we talk to him about will get back to Daddy, and worse he completely preaches the same worldview as her Dad so that wouldn't work out. I've tried the counselor suggestion from a known Christian marriage and sex counselor outside our church circle only to have her refuse and tell me she isn't willing to listen to someone tell her to do things she doesn't want to do. She isn't willing to do it.


If I were in your position, I would also demand another church.
It is highly unprofessional, and a gross conflict, that your minister carries information to her father.
If she refuses (and you still stay together), you should still find a new church of your own.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

This is 100% systematic and community reinforced abuse.

This is all cultish behavior. You don't just need to divorce this woman, OP, you need to get away from this whole community, and take your kids with you if possible.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

jimbradshawucf said:


> When I try she just gets mad. She says it's gross and perverted, and that even though she likes when I do it to her if it means not being asked to reciprocate she'd prefer I don't do it. Other than "it's gross" followed by anger for bringing it up and making me feel like I'm a creep - I have never gotten an actual legitimate answer out of her in 16 years of trying.


Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.
I'd do a hard 180 on her until she cracks and goes crying to daddy for another "Intervention"
Then, I would clearly tell dear ol' dad the orifice of his body in which he can stick his "Intervention."


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Your wife sounds like a selfish prude who is determined to stay that way. I can't think of another way to say it. Your choices are to let this be your life or make a change. 

Also, for a different perspective, I absolutely love it when my husband asks for oral. It's hot. Him asking means he's aroused and wants to share pleasure with me. Even if I am the only one giving at the time, I'm sharing his pleasure with him. I love his taste, texture, and shape. I love the power of being able to turn a strong man into shuddering goo. There definitely are women out there who both enjoy the act and the asking.


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## Tobeknown (Mar 24, 2020)

MJJEAN said:


> . I love the power of being able to turn a strong man into shuddering goo. There definitely are women out there who both enjoy the act and the asking.


MMJEAN are we soul sisters? 😉 You've perfectly described what I feel as well when I'm desiring my hubby. I wish he'd ask me more to be honest so I could watch him feel amazing because I'm doing that to him! 
Glad I'm not alone...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

My brother, this is not what a Christian Marriage is like. It just is not.

If she will not go to counseling you should file for divorce. She is an entitled princes that thinks you are her little boy to dominate. She is not your mother. She is your wife.

She is very confused and frankly so are you. The level of involvement with your church is unhealthy in this circumstance. This level of conformity and judgement is not what Christianity is really about.

I understand that you will not understand or believe what I and many others are telling you.

I mean, you have followed God, been a good husband, raised your kids and put up with more crap than anyone should, you are a good guy, right?

If you and your wife, esp your wife, do not get to some real counseling in a hurry this is your life. You will live in misery the rest of your life.

NOTHING YOUR WIFE THINKS ABOUT SEX AND MARRIAGE IS NORMAL.

You have to stop being so weak and letting her run you life and esp your sex life.

If you want to save this, get tough, let there be a new sheriff in town and take charge of your life. Or file for divorce.

I think you would be better off to divorce but you might can save this.

DONT WASTE YOUR LIFE....


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

__





About | The Forgiven Wife


Welcome! My name is Chris, and I’m glad you’re here. My husband Doug and I have been married 24 years. We live in southeastern Wisconsin …




forgivenwife.com





That's the blog.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

jimbradshawucf said:


> And the tough part is... knowing what is the right move here. I really hate the idea of walking out of a 16 year marriage, with 2 kids in the equation (ages 14 and 11); but I don't think I can handle another 16 years of it. I've honestly been telling myself for quite a while "when the youngest is old enough I'm done with this marriage" - but it's just hard you know? And to add another crazy puzzle piece to the mix... my parents are part of the same religious background, and would PROBABLY agree with her as well on this if doodoo hit the fan. Maybe I'm sounding like a total whiner here - but I feel like I have two choices... put up with being treated in a way that I don't feel is right whatsoever and be completely unhappy. Or option 2 - pretty much give the middle finger to everyone I know to make what I feel would probably be the first actually selfish move in this entire scenario, which of course would get used by all of them to simply say "see he IS as selfish as she is claiming!!" and nob
> 
> ody, including my own family, will understand or agree with my perspective of why I'd be ending the marriage.
> 
> It's seriously one of the worst feelings and I have no idea what I should do. I only see 2 options. They both suck - really bad. I refuse to be a cheater - I won't compromise my own integrity to entertain that as an option. Even if I'm being mistreated, I don't feel that doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is ever right.


Dude, you can make all the excuses you want to, it wont change a thing. 

You have to get out, and get out now...


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> Also, for a different perspective, I absolutely love it when my husband asks for oral. It's hot. Him asking means he's aroused and wants to share pleasure with me. Even if I am the only one giving at the time, I'm sharing his pleasure with him. I love his taste, texture, and shape. I love the power of being able to turn a strong man into shuddering goo. There definitely are women out there who both enjoy the act and the asking.


Thanks for saying that. I wasn't going to say anything but yes, there are indeed women that like to do oral with no reciprocation on occasion, just because they want to make you happy, and to me it seems like they enjoy doing it for you. When I was younger it was actually something I would feel a tinge of guilt about. Like hmmmmm....that's weird. You don't want anything in return? But now I get it, its simply a way for them to show their affection towards you, and you kind of ruin it for them if you insist on "paying them back right". Some say this behavior is all about submissiveness, I am not so sure about that, I think the women that have done it to me feel like they have complete power over me when doing it as you said in your post, and I think that it is very much a turn on for them.

I don't see anything wrong with the OP desiring that, he just chose the wrong partner for it. Unreciprocated BJs or hand jobs on occasion are a thing in many marriages, even Christian ones! Hopefully this isn't seen as a thread jack, I feel it is relevant to the OP's situation because I want him to know that his request for that kind of thing really isn't all that unusual in a long term loving committed relationship. Some women would have no issues with his request at all.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

ReformedHubby said:


> Thanks for saying that. I wasn't going to say anything but yes, there are indeed women that like to do oral with no reciprocation on occasion, just because they want to make you happy, and to me it seems like they enjoy doing it for you. When I was younger it was actually something I would feel a tinge of guilt about. Like hmmmmm....that's weird. You don't want anything in return? But now I get it, its simply a way for them to show their affection towards you, and you kind of ruin it for them if you insist on "paying them back right". Some say this behavior is all about submissiveness, I am not so sure about that, I think the women that have done it to me feel like they have complete power over me when doing it as you said in your post, and I think that it is very much a turn on for them.
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with the OP desiring that, he just chose the wrong partner for it. Unreciprocated BJs or hand jobs on occasion are a thing in many marriages, even Christian ones! Hopefully this isn't seen as a thread jack, I feel it is relevant to the OP's situation because I want him to know that his request for that kind of thing really isn't all that unusual in a long term loving committed relationship. Some women would have no issues with his request at all.


Not seen as a thread jack whatsoever!! It helps me to see that maybe I'm not as unreasonable or unfair as I was afraid. I can see how it may not be a fair request if I know she takes offense to it, but I never intended for her to take it as anything offensive.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

So first off, thank you everyone for your replies, insights, even correction on a few things! Based on your input and a lot of thought, meditation, and coming to grips with some things, I've decided that for me, there is clearly a path I need to take.

Either things will change immediately or they won't.
If they don't - I'm out.
Based on the above, I need to take some clear action to make things change immediately that are drastic, but I see it as a last straw on this thing. A one last attempt to give her the opportunity after a 16 year marriage to fix this before it's too late. Not another hidden contract - a very blatant one. I have always HATED the idea of ultimatums in a relationship, and this is not that. It is more standing up for myself. It started last night. That's the hilarious thing about this - outside of hers/my relationship I'm very much a leader/take charge type. I'm a VP of a big company for crying out loud.

So I made a pretty big (for me) move last night based on the feedback everyone gave me. It's made for a rough start to the day - but we will see how it plays out. Here's how this went down.

Last night I made it a point NOT to be my normal lovey/dovey self. I was fairly "manager at the office" in demeanor vs. close. Intentionally distant to an extent. I wouldn't say mean or over the top, just certainly not "wall down" if you will. I was NOT this way with my 2 sons - played Xbox with them, laughed, messed around. Just towards her. I did NOT give her hugs/kisses, say "I love you" or things of that nature etc. She definitely noticed and asked several times "what's wrong?" to which I simply said "I'm fine." and left it at that.

When it was our normal time after the kids went to bed that she likes me to snuggle on the couch with her and watch her god awful reality shows, I instead took a good book and sat on a recliner. With a beer. Yep - I had bought a 6 pack, put it in the fridge in the garage and cracked one open right in front of her after the kids went to bed. When I cracked it open, she was sitting there mouth opened at my brazen action. Meekly she said "Honey... what is going on?" to which I said "I'm just relaxing - why?" She said "You know we don't allow beer in our home. Now what is going on?" I simply responded with "No. YOU don't allow beer in our home. I'm a nearly 40 year old man, and I don't need my spouse telling me what I'm allowed to do. You expressed that you don't want beer in the home because you don't want the kids influenced to think that alcohol is what's needed to have a good time. The kids are not awake, it's not as if they will be influenced in some way to think alcohol is cool - and I want to relax."

She sat there silent as the grave for about 10 minutes, jaw clenched, clearly completely pissed off. Didn't say a word - which is WEIRD for her. Usually she gets furious and explodes. I think this was the first time I can remember just simply saying "nope - this is what I'm doing - deal with it" and she didn't know how to handle it. Then the next bomb dropped.

She got up and stomped out of the room. She then found the next bomb. In our bedroom we have a white board where we usually write down my things to remember for the next day. We both use it. Typically it's work stuff or things to remember around the house - don't forget to call so and so, don't forget you have a meeting at such and such, remember the kiddo has a dentist appointment - you get the idea. I had on the white board my appointment I'd scheduled at the local professional massage place over my lunch break today. She comes stomping back out of our room demanding answers. "WHAT IS THIS??? YOU ARE GOING TO LET ANOTHER WOMAN LAY HER HANDS ON YOU??? AND YOU'RE DRINKING IN MY HOME????"

I calmly - without losing my temper in any capacity sat there, took another sip and said. "I'm drinking in our home. Not your home, our home." Left it at that. She said "I DEMAND you explain to me this massage, this distance stuff, and this beer stuff - WHAT IS GOING ON???" - I calmly said "[her name] I have decided, after our most recent blowup, that you are correct about a few things. It is unfair for me to expect YOU to be my source of relaxing, or my source of what I need. I shouldn't put that on you if you don't want it. As a result, I have decided that I will going forward take care of the things I need in my life. They are needs, they are not wants. If that does not work for you, then you can either accept this and discuss it with me as your spouse - knowing I am an adult and do not have to do what you want - or you can just be mad about it. Either way, I WILL no longer ask you to do things you don't want to do, or give in ways you don't want, but you must understand part of that means solving the issue in other ways. At this time I no longer even want some of those things from you, because I don't want to feel you're doing them because you feel you have to. It's really no big deal - a massage is no different than a chiropractor or a dentist. It's just a physical medical style appointment - not a date."

She started screaming at me, all sorts of unfair stuff - got really pissed off. Funny thing is, the massage appointment is with a guy - she doesn't know this and just ASSUMED it was a woman in her screaming. She went out on the back porch, called someone crying about it all (assuming it was either her mom or her best friend). I left her alone, finished my beer continued reading my book - and frankly relaxed. When she came back in - I calmly asked her "[insert name here] do you feel it's appropriate, that when we have marital problems you go and call family and friends about things in our relationship for council, but when I have asked for us to see professional council over MY concerns - because I don't go tell all your same family and friends my issues with your behavior - you refuse? I am not telling you that you can or should not call your friends, but I'd like us to see a marriage and sex counselor together. I've called around, found a Christian counselor who specializes in these topics, and I do not believe she will view you as wrong, and me as right for everything. I'm willing to hear when I'm wrong. It is a female marriage counselor who partners with a male marriage counselor - a male/female team for both perspectives - and I am willing to fund us getting some help so we are both happy. Are you willing to do this?" - she refused and slammed the door on the bedroom and went to bed crying.

The writing was on the wall that I should sleep on the couch. So I did.

This morning - and to preface I've been working out of my home office due to the Covid stuff - I started my day calm and normal, making a cup of coffee, sitting down in my office - she comes in tears in her eyes and simply asks "Are we done? Is our marriage over?" to which I replied "Not unless you wish it to be. I've stated what I need to continue in it - do you want it over with or are these things impossible for you?" She broke down and walked out.

I do not know where things stand at this moment... I've missed 2 calls this morning from her father (sent him to voicemail), and 1 from my Pastor (sent him to voicemail) . No doubt in my mind they are calling because she tattled on me. I don't really care at this point. The counselor I'm willing to talk to is the neutral ground male/female specialists not connected to our church, not her father or our pastor. If that doesn't work for her - I'm not interested in being preached at about this as a 3 on 1 team up (her, her dad, pastor) to tell me I'm wrong. At 12 noon I intend to get a massage. The therapist is still open through Covid as long as a mask is worn, and temps are checked at the door.

That's where we stand. I don't know... maybe the marriage is over, maybe not. As it sits right now, she'll either realize I'm not budging, and not going to be treated like a child any further - or she will not. If she is not willing to compromise here and at least see the neutral counselors with me (and again I'm open to them saying if I'm wrong!!) then we are probably done. But when this is all said and done, I will be able to 100% say I tried everything. I can look a judge, her family, my family, her friends, and God in the face and say I did everything I could - and she wasn't even willing to try.

Let me know - curious what you all think of my approach here.

Jim

Jim


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

jimbradshawucf said:


> That's where we stand. I don't know... maybe the marriage is over, maybe not. As it sits right now, she'll either realize I'm not budging, and not going to be treated like a child any further - or she will not. If she is not willing to compromise here and at least see the neutral counselors with me (and again I'm open to them saying if I'm wrong!!) then we are probably done. But when this is all said and done, I will be able to 100% say I tried everything. I can look a judge, her family, my family, her friends, and God in the face and say I did everything I could - and she wasn't even willing to try.
> 
> Let me know - curious what you all think of my approach here.
> 
> Jim


I don't think I would have put the massage thing out there, but other than that your reaction is on point as far as I am concerned. With that said. I have to be honest. I am about 99 percent sure she is not going to want to make any changes. I am basing this off your description of her reaction, as well as the discussions you had in the past. 

I feel bad for you because this is something you want to work on, but the reality is you probably need to buckle up. You are in for a very bumpy ride in the near future. I think you should prepare for the end of your marriage legally and financially if you continue down this path. She won't change. She'll only surround herself with those that agree with things from her perspective. Ultimately I am hoping for a miracle for you, but I don't see it happening if I am being realistic.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Your W appears to be very controlling. No way to live. The ball is in your W court. She countered by going to others for advise. Those others will be in support of her perspective. Stick to your plan of seeing counselors outside of your W ring of usual suspects.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

jimbradshawucf said:


> So first off, thank you everyone for your replies, insights, even correction on a few things! Based on your input and a lot of thought, meditation, and coming to grips with some things, I've decided that for me, there is clearly a path I need to take.
> 
> Either things will change immediately or they won't.
> If they don't - I'm out.
> ...


You know I GUESS it is an improvement, And for you it probably is, but not really. 

A more direct way was to have a DIRECT conversation with her and tell her what you need to say. Example: 
1) If I want a beer I will have one, end of discussion. 
2) I will not be told what to do by you, the pastor, your father or any other person... I am a grown ass man...
3) Or sex life will change in terms of frequency and quality or our marriage is over. 
4) I you don't like the new rules, you are free to leave... 

END OF DISCUSSION

While this was funny to read, your are still working off of some "COVERT CONTRACT" that YOU have created in your mind. She is clueless, and while it is funny, I am not sure if it helps.

See, you have been so far gone, you have been so weak with her, you don't really know how to lay down the law with her. 

It is better, but not enough. 

I say have the talk, and if she does not comply and stay that way, file for divorce. 

Frankly, like i said, I think you should just file for divorce.

Oh, and tell her father and your pastor to mind their own own damn business...


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

BluesPower said:


> You know I GUESS it is an improvement, And for you it probably is, but not really.
> 
> A more direct way was to have a DIRECT conversation with her and tell her what you need to say. Example:
> 1) If I want a beer I will have one, end of discussion.
> ...


Point taken and appreciated! Thank you for your perspective!


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

ReformedHubby said:


> I don't think I would have put the massage thing out there, but other than that your reaction is on point as far as I am concerned. With that said. I have to be honest. I am about 99 percent sure she is not going to want to make any changes. I am basing this off your description of her reaction, as well as the discussions you had in the past.
> 
> I feel bad for you because this is something you want to work on, but the reality is you probably need to buckle up. You are in for a very bumpy ride in the near future. I think you should prepare for the end of your marriage legally and financially if you continue down this path. She won't change. She'll only surround herself with those that agree with things from her perspective. Ultimately I am hoping for a miracle for you, but I don't see it happening if I am being realistic.


I agree sadly that nothing will change - but I felt taking this route I could honestly say hey... I tried one last time to make it clear that I intend to live X way and take control of my life, and if she doesn't want to come along for the ride or support it - that's her problem. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. This route, when ultimately I have to end it - she will have less of a "you selfish a-hole" bullet to throw my way. I can prove I tried everything.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

I'm certainly glad to hear that you are standing up for yourself.
You need to continue the path that you have started, except as noted, plan to weather the blowback that you will receive.
As noted, best get your ducks lined up in regards to preparing for the worst. I would be sure that your assets are shored up, and that you have consulted with legal counsel.
To be blunt about it, the key to this is "Can she be broken?" Yes, that is what it is going to take. She has 16 years of control over you, plus a family and a church that are toxic. It is really going to come down to what she values the most, her dogma or her marriage and children. She needs to be broken down to her simplest level, so that proper spousal/family values can be instilled and allowed to flourish.
The next thing that you need to do is separate yourself from that church. Make it clear that you are a religious person and will continue practicing, but it will be in a church without the current conflicts and unprofessional demeanor. What ever you do, do not respond to the calls from her dad and your current pastor. Your marriage is none of their business. If they stage an intervention at your home, refuse to participate and show them out. You can talk to your FIL/MIL after you separate from the church. At that point, if you continue in the marriage, a standard in-law relationship can be established, and it can be made clear that your religion is yours, and they have no control or manipulative rights over it.
Time will tell if she can get with the program. It will take some time, as I am sure that she is in shock right now, because her world has started tumbling down. Stay the course, be fair, be unemotional but civil, and do the right things by your kids (as I'm sure you will.)
You may want to research deprogramming an individual. It could come in handy.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

jimbradshawucf said:


> I agree sadly that nothing will change - but I felt taking this route I could honestly say hey... I tried one last time to make it clear that I intend to live X way and take control of my life, and if she doesn't want to come along for the ride or support it - that's her problem. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. This route, when ultimately I have to end it - she will have less of a "you selfish a-hole" bullet to throw my way. I can prove I tried everything.


See, this is the type of thinking that all of us are want you to STOP. STOP THINKING THIS WAY.

This is the "Nice Guy" talking. And you, and other nice guys are thinking... Go get em tiger... But that is the problem with nice guys, they finish last, sorry folks they do and you all know it...

I get what you are trying to do, ONE LAST TIME... Good grief if I had a dollar for every time I said that in my last marriage. Different problems, same solution, divorce.

But you see, you have already tried this, for what 20 years? Is that correct?

You think your new covert contract is going to work this time?

You are making the covert contract because you don't yet have the balls to tell her that it is over and move on. If in the very unlikely chance that she changed long term, you could think about staying with her and see if she changes. But she won't change and you know it.

I know it is hard, but it is what you have to do... Oh, and find a new church...


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

jimbradshawucf said:


> I've suggested counseling. Her response to it is "I'm not doing that - if you don't like what we have then get out; and you'll get to explain to everyone that you broke up a happy marriage over something as stupid and selfish as blow jobs. I am who I am and I won't sit there and have a third person tell me why I should have to do something I don't want to do."
> 
> Truthfully I did try the "screw this I'm just going to do my thing" approach you suggest. The result of that was in 2014 when she found out I had masturbated, she called her very religious pastor father/mother, her very religious best friend's family, and I got home from work to an intervention about "my behavior" and how if I did this again they would support her leaving my "perverse and depraved behavior." It was hands down the most humiliating moment of my life to have my in-laws, and family friends sitting in my living room confronting me about MY SEX LIFE. If I was cheating or something I could see it, but relieving myself? WTH. They were adamant it was a "sin" and she could leave me and all this.
> 
> I don't want to lose my marriage over something as petty as sex, but as a man it's not as petty as I make it sound either. I guess what I'm saying here is... been there, tried that on the "just do it anyway and see how it goes" - she will absolutely push the nuclear button on it and would have the support of the people in her close circle 100%. They view it as a form of cheating and perversion, and nothing I can say or do will change anyone's mind. In my view, her bringing in outside people over this issue was already one of the biggest violations of trust I could even describe; it was done without my knowledge or consent; and yet she's unwilling to do so with a professional therapist herself. It's almost a perfect ironic representation of the entire situation. Much like the getting angry if I ask... how dare I ask for it in my timing, but it's okay for her reply to be she'll give it in HER timing... which never happens.


At this point, then, you have to decide what you want to deal with. Personally if that intervention had occured to me, I'd be out of that house and marriage so fast, and fighting for my children. They would look the fools in a court for trying to call masterbation a perversion, and their fanaticism would work against them. If your kids are almost grown, which it seems they might be, maybe wait the. Couple of years, take them out and explain why you are leaving their mom, and then file that day. That's the best I have for you. She is not interested in having a marriage.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

jimbradshawucf said:


> I agree sadly that nothing will change - but I felt taking this route I could honestly say hey... I tried one last time to make it clear that I intend to live X way and take control of my life, and if she doesn't want to come along for the ride or support it - that's her problem. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. This route, when ultimately I have to end it - she will have less of a "you selfish a-hole" bullet to throw my way. I can prove I tried everything.


I actually understand you wanting to give her the option of going to counseling and working on things. But I see this as something for you, not for her. You can now tell yourself that you did giver her the option. But I doubt she will take you up on it. She will still tell any and every one that will listen that you are a selfish a-hole. There is not a whole lot you will be able to do to ever change that, so don't even bother trying to convince her otherwise. Just be cordial with her. She is going to feel "wronged", and she also views you as some sort of pervert. Really hoping she doesn't start saying negative things to the kids.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> I actually understand you wanting to give her the option of going to counseling and working on things. But I see this as something for you, not for her. You can now tell yourself that you did giver her the option. But I doubt she will take you up on it. She will still tell any and every one that will listen that you are a selfish a-hole. There is not a whole lot you will be able to do to ever change that, so don't even bother trying to convince her otherwise. Just be cordial with her. She is going to feel "wronged", and she also views you as some sort of pervert. Really hoping she doesn't start saying negative things to the kids.


Yeah, I totally agree.

What kind of a person puts up with this? 

I would have said, "You folks need to leave my house now", not please not if you would not mind. 

Get the **** out, who are you to tell me what is  right or wrong... 

See, this is the nice guy again, and look where it got you...


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

jimbradshawucf said:


> And the tough part is... knowing what is the right move here. I really hate the idea of walking out of a 16 year marriage, with 2 kids in the equation (ages 14 and 11); but I don't think I can handle another 16 years of it. I've honestly been telling myself for quite a while "when the youngest is old enough I'm done with this marriage" - but it's just hard you know? And to add another crazy puzzle piece to the mix... my parents are part of the same religious background, and would PROBABLY agree with her as well on this if doodoo hit the fan. Maybe I'm sounding like a total whiner here - but I feel like I have two choices... put up with being treated in a way that I don't feel is right whatsoever and be completely unhappy. Or option 2 - pretty much give the middle finger to everyone I know to make what I feel would probably be the first actually selfish move in this entire scenario, which of course would get used by all of them to simply say "see he IS as selfish as she is claiming!!" and nobody, including my own family, will understand or agree with my perspective of why I'd be ending the marriage.
> 
> It's seriously one of the worst feelings and I have no idea what I should do. I only see 2 options. They both suck - really bad. I refuse to be a cheater - I won't compromise my own integrity to entertain that as an option. Even if I'm being mistreated, I don't feel that doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is ever right.


Still doing a lot of catch up. This thread has really blown up.
Given those ages, don't wait. More harm can be done to children who live in stressed homes than in divorce situations. Get yourself a lawyer and get your ducks in a row prior to telling anyone and then be ready with harassment orders against the family. Also, @Tobeknown had a great suggestion. Start seeing a therapist on your own, as your wife has said you should. Then you also have that to back you up. As far as your family goes, being blood related means nothing. Toxic is toxic, no matter how much you love them. Remember the actual saying is "the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb". Blood relations are not the overriding priority.

I swear if you tell me her family belongs to Rock Church, I am going to freak and tell you to take the kids and run. A lot of this is starting to sound familiar. Thankfully I got my not yet then but also no longer wife away from them.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

jimbradshawucf said:


> So first off, thank you everyone for your replies, insights, even correction on a few things! Based on your input and a lot of thought, meditation, and coming to grips with some things, I've decided that for me, there is clearly a path I need to take.
> 
> Either things will change immediately or they won't.
> If they don't - I'm out.
> ...


OMG!!! I had no idea this was here when I made my other replies. If it doesn't seem to weird, let me say I am so proud of you! A lot of what I suggested you already did. I still say go to the therapist team on your own if you have to. It give you a documented account that you are not just making things up on the spot. Sure, it could be said that you are misreading things, but it will show a consistency of such, and their professional opinions will hold much weight.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I've only read the first and last pages of the thread.

Jim, you have nothing (less than nothing) to work with here. That intervention thing was beyond the pale. Your wife is selfish and hateful.

Her dragging her daddy into your marriage is disgusting and your allowing it is pitiful. What does her daddy think about her shagging her boyfriend for 2 years? They do realize that there is no such thing as a born-again virgin, don't they?

File for divorce and return your wife to her daddy so he can finish raising her. She is one spoiled rotten *****.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Maybe I'm the only one who wants to high five you!
I feel proud of you. After 16 years you finally found your cojones and told her the control is over, with a beer and a massage no less! Lol! Keep up the good work! Do not go back to being her doormat. 

Now you have to decide what's next. How long are you going to wait for her to make up her mind and join you for therapy? 

Next time the Fil calls, tell him your marriage is none of his business and let him know his daughter wasn't a virgin when you guys got married. Tit for tat. Sorry, but not sorry.

You have to decide what's next. But be prepared she might lose her marbles and accuse you of other things as well.

You are a nice guy and I believe if you divorce you'll have a better chance at meeting someone who can make you happy. Your wife on the other hand will not have the same luck. Wanting sex and intimacy is very important in a relationship, that's something your wife doesn't think it's important. The controlling behavior is way too much for someone to put up with. 

Good luck!!! And Keep us posted!


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> You know I GUESS it is an improvement, And for you it probably is, but not really.
> 
> A more direct way was to have a DIRECT conversation with her and tell her what you need to say. Example:
> 1) If I want a beer I will have one, end of discussion.
> ...


 I kinda agree - feels good, sounds good - but you are more or less just making contracts and ultimatums you haven't delivered on. 

You don't need to justify why you are drinking a beer in your house. Or reading a book, or getting a massage etc.....

Strictly for kicks, if they ask about the masturbation thing (truly totally bizarre) - tell them YES. Actually 2x already today. And trust me, someone that obsessed with it, has their own secrets. The dad, the mom, the pastor, the friend, they are ALL doing it too.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Well honestly, I would have started with the baseball instead of the beer. The beer was a very close second (and I'm a teetotaler). I don't put a lot of stock in the covert contract voodoo as you can see once you have been labeled a nice guy every single simple thing you do will magically become a covert contract. In this case you told her directly what you were doing and you told her why. Nothing covert about it. 
It is so very hard to sit there and listed to someone, or some group rail at you and then reply calmly.


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## adbad16 (Apr 5, 2020)

Female here - does she and her support system not believe that she has duties to you as a wife? 
So she won’t go to counseling but she can surprise you with intervention? She can tell everyone that you masterbated? How embarrassing. I would be so upset. have your own intervention. Seriously. This is NOT cool. Anything that bothers you this much should bother her as well. .... I don’t see how you are putting up with this


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## adbad16 (Apr 5, 2020)

jimbradshawucf said:


> She is the sort that would walk in and poke her head in the shower JUST to be like "why do you have a boner? you better not be playing with yourself in there - you KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT THAT!!!!" - it's happened before. Plus I hate the idea of lying to her - she asks me every so often "have you done anything to yourself?" - like I would hate to feel like I have to lie to my own wife you know? I thought the whole point of marriage was to have that ONE PERSON you could be 100% open with. Nope.


There are some things I just don’t ask about .... and I hope my husband just won’t ask about. Especially if it’s super normal but going to make him mad. Like this.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

jimbradshawucf said:


> So first off, thank you everyone for your replies, insights, even correction on a few things! Based on your input and a lot of thought, meditation, and coming to grips with some things, I've decided that for me, there is clearly a path I need to take.
> 
> Either things will change immediately or they won't.
> If they don't - I'm out.
> ...


My friend, you have done exactly the right things, taken exactly the right actions.

And you're doing it exactly right. Without I'll will, without; rancor, harsh words, without intention to cause a separation from your part. And you specifically stated you hope she joins you as you live life, and you would like her in your life, that choice is up to her as she's a grown woman.

She's shown she's still running off to Dad and others and you're courteously stating to her does she really think that's productive or appropriate and getting that set without arguing. 

Everyone has their own process, let her work through things in her mind, as you continue to live in a normal, steadfast, same guy you are way.

Outstanding. This is the only way to save your marriage and see if she grows into an independent woman and matures a bit.

Excellent.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Just as an update... just got back from the massage. She was waiting for me in tears and begged me to call her Dad because he may have "council for me" on this. I told her that I had no intention of discussing our marriage with anyone except her directly, and a licensed, professional marriage and sex counselor that is not connected to church or her father in any way. That I had already given her that option and she declined it, so no, I will not be calling her father unless he wants to talk about football or the kids. I then walked toward my office to get back to work, she stood in the way, blocked my access to the door and said "please call him - please" - and I said "you're blocking me from getting to work - I already said no. It is what it is. Either we are going to get counseling from appropriate channels, and you and I both have to be willing to hear them out and humbly take their input, or I'm done. I intend to sit the boys down after I'm done with work tonight and explain to them why I'm moving out, and I will find a room tonight. The ONLY WAY that does not happen is if we get that appointment scheduled and commit to it. Moving out may still happen during that process - I haven't decided. Should I schedule the appointment and we both start working on our marriage, or is our marriage not of value to you and I should plan on leaving?" - she left the room crying without an answer. I'm back to work in my office, and we'll see where it goes from here.


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## adbad16 (Apr 5, 2020)

I’m SO glad you are not calling her dad or the pastor. It is not their business. And of course they are on her side. Stick with seeing the counselor. 
She is so controlling. Why won’t she see a counselor?!


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Just as an update... just got back from the massage. She was waiting for me in tears and begged me to call her Dad because he may have "council for me" on this. I told her that I had no intention of discussing our marriage with anyone except her directly, and a licensed, professional marriage and sex counselor that is not connected to church or her father in any way. That I had already given her that option and she declined it, so no, I will not be calling her father unless he wants to talk about football or the kids. I then walked toward my office to get back to work, she stood in the way, blocked my access to the door and said "please call him - please" - and I said "you're blocking me from getting to work - I already said no. It is what it is. Either we are going to get counseling from appropriate channels, and you and I both have to be willing to hear them out and humbly take their input, or I'm done. I intend to sit the boys down after I'm done with work tonight and explain to them why I'm moving out, and I will find a room tonight. The ONLY WAY that does not happen is if we get that appointment scheduled and commit to it. Moving out may still happen during that process - I haven't decided. Should I schedule the appointment and we both start working on our marriage, or is our marriage not of value to you and I should plan on leaving?" - she left the room crying without an answer. I'm back to work in my office, and we'll see where it goes from here.


Stay strong. It’s going to get very bumpy from here on in. And you will be lonely and shunned too (I assume). Have a good plan b for hobby (ride a bike, hiking, etc..)


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

pastasauce79 said:


> Holy cow I feel sorry for you.
> 
> You sound like a really nice guy and someone who doesn't deserve to be humiliated in front of anyone.
> 
> ...


The site is themarriagebed.com (teh lady you reference is posting as @generouswife (she was the the Christian wife, who had a major self transformation about her views on sex).


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Stay strong.
You also might be well served to have a VAR or other recording device handy and operating for all discussions.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Just as an update... just got back from the massage. She was waiting for me in tears and begged me to call her Dad because he may have "council for me" on this. I told her that I had no intention of discussing our marriage with anyone except her directly, and a licensed, professional marriage and sex counselor that is not connected to church or her father in any way. That I had already given her that option and she declined it, so no, I will not be calling her father unless he wants to talk about football or the kids. I then walked toward my office to get back to work, she stood in the way, blocked my access to the door and said "please call him - please" - and I said "you're blocking me from getting to work - I already said no. It is what it is. Either we are going to get counseling from appropriate channels, and you and I both have to be willing to hear them out and humbly take their input, or I'm done. I intend to sit the boys down after I'm done with work tonight and explain to them why I'm moving out, and I will find a room tonight. The ONLY WAY that does not happen is if we get that appointment scheduled and commit to it. Moving out may still happen during that process - I haven't decided. Should I schedule the appointment and we both start working on our marriage, or is our marriage not of value to you and I should plan on leaving?" - she left the room crying without an answer. I'm back to work in my office, and we'll see where it goes from here.


Now this is the way that you handle your business. This is so good. 

I think you are getting it now. But like everyone is saying, STAND STRONG. 

I suspect that "daddy and pastor joe" are making plans to come over asap and set you straight. 

Do not let them in the house or talk to them in any way. 

I would threaten to call the cops if they don't leave. 

Brother how do you all this crap for 16 years, really????


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jimbradshawucf said:


> So first off, thank you everyone for your replies, insights, even correction on a few things! Based on your input and a lot of thought, meditation, and coming to grips with some things, I've decided that for me, there is clearly a path I need to take.
> 
> Either things will change immediately or they won't.
> If they don't - I'm out.
> ...


In a non-abusive and non-community supported systematic control system, this would all be a great approach.

But this isn't going to work here.

She's already got her father, pastor, and everyone else out to re-exert control over you. This is going to get much, much worse and will not stop until you are no longer part of this community.

She - and they - will attempt to do the same to your children.

You are a hostage to an organized emotional terrorist organization. You don't negotiate with terrorists to make your enforced stay with them more comfortable - you get the hell out of there and never look back.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

adbad16 said:


> Female here - does she and her support system not believe that she has duties to you as a wife?
> So she won’t go to counseling but she can surprise you with intervention? She can tell everyone that you masterbated? How embarrassing. I would be so upset. have your own intervention. Seriously. This is NOT cool. Anything that bothers you this much should bother her as well. .... I don’t see how you are putting up with this


You're attempting to use logic where one side gets to invent what reality is and the other doesn't.

Logical arguments are not going to work.


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## Diceplayer (Oct 12, 2019)

I for one am proud of you. I know what you're doing is hard, but if you are going to have any kind of happy life, it will be up to you. God did not equip your wife to make you happy. You have to do that yourself and you have finally started the process. Good for you and stay strong.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Just as an update... just got back from the massage. She was waiting for me in tears and begged me to call her Dad because he may have "council for me" on this. I told her that I had no intention of discussing our marriage with anyone except her directly, and a licensed, professional marriage and sex counselor that is not connected to church or her father in any way. That I had already given her that option and she declined it, so no, I will not be calling her father unless he wants to talk about football or the kids. I then walked toward my office to get back to work, she stood in the way, blocked my access to the door and said "please call him - please" - and I said "you're blocking me from getting to work - I already said no. It is what it is. Either we are going to get counseling from appropriate channels, and you and I both have to be willing to hear them out and humbly take their input, or I'm done. I intend to sit the boys down after I'm done with work tonight and explain to them why I'm moving out, and I will find a room tonight. The ONLY WAY that does not happen is if we get that appointment scheduled and commit to it. Moving out may still happen during that process - I haven't decided. Should I schedule the appointment and we both start working on our marriage, or is our marriage not of value to you and I should plan on leaving?" - she left the room crying without an answer. I'm back to work in my office, and we'll see where it goes from here.


Now, *this* is how you handle it.

Well done.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Just as an update... just got back from the massage. She was waiting for me in tears and begged me to call her Dad because he may have "council for me" on this. I told her that I had no intention of discussing our marriage with anyone except her directly, and a licensed, professional marriage and sex counselor that is not connected to church or her father in any way. That I had already given her that option and she declined it, so no, I will not be calling her father unless he wants to talk about football or the kids. I then walked toward my office to get back to work, she stood in the way, blocked my access to the door and said "please call him - please" - and I said "you're blocking me from getting to work - I already said no. It is what it is. Either we are going to get counseling from appropriate channels, and you and I both have to be willing to hear them out and humbly take their input, or I'm done. I intend to sit the boys down after I'm done with work tonight and explain to them why I'm moving out, and I will find a room tonight. The ONLY WAY that does not happen is if we get that appointment scheduled and commit to it. Moving out may still happen during that process - I haven't decided. Should I schedule the appointment and we both start working on our marriage, or is our marriage not of value to you and I should plan on leaving?" - she left the room crying without an answer. I'm back to work in my office, and we'll see where it goes from here.


You are still on track, I'm proud of you. It will get tougher here and there but you'll be able to handle it with coolness and composure I have faith.

You're doing all the right things for right now, if you want your marriage partner to mature. This is the only track.

Btw, I've been M 35yrs, one wife, and all marriages have speed bumps.

The trick is to keep cool and always keep moving forward, to get over the speed bumps. 

The bumps tend to shake things out and knock the rust off and sometimes make one realize as an individual that a different road must be taken to avoid getting stuck in the mud as a couple and sometimes as an individual. 

Hang in there.


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## Tobeknown (Mar 24, 2020)

I agree


Marduk said:


> In a non-abusive and non-community supported systematic control system, this would all be a great approach.
> 
> But this isn't going to work here.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%

I once dated a man, in a very eerily similar situation and it was all out war once he finally made the choice to leave his abusive wife.

I hope it's ok to post the link below because it's got some great info if you find yourself dealing with a controlling wife and family, especially when you have kids. The website is very helpful for men who are dealing with what you've described. 

You stood your ground and you're taking back your kahoonas from her back pocket !!😉









Does your Wife or Ex-Wife Have a Golden Uterus Complex? 15 Characteristics of the Golden Uterus - Shrink4Men


Are you frustrated with your wife or ex-wife's attitude of "I AM THE MOTHER; YOU ARE IRRELEVANT" when it comes to raising your shared children? Does she have an over-inflated sense of self because she's a mother? Does she believe the mere act of giving birth entitles her to special privileges...




shrink4men.com


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## Tobeknown (Mar 24, 2020)

Just to clarify...I dated him post divorce! 😉
We broke up because he's ex wife was insane and it was driving me mad as well. Really nice guy. Wish him very well.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Stay strong. It’s going to get very bumpy from here on in. And you will be lonely and shunned too (I assume). Have a good plan b for hobby (ride a bike, hiking, etc..)


Remember, if it feels like you're being shunned, that's the feeling the "controllers; wife, pastor, daddy want you to feel - don't even entertain the thought you're being shunned think of it as you're being saved from having these non-supporters harping on you. 

Tell your children lovingly and clearly what's going on, tell your W you are keeping the kids updated as you see fit and your specially telling them that if Grandpa, W, or others are telling them that "Dad is being bad, doing bad things" they are outright lying, etc, etc, . 

The kids are old enough to know you and Mom are having a disagreement and I know you'll successfully know how much and what to tell them choosing the right words.

I'd tell them in front of their Mother so the loop is closed. 

The W telling dad and pastor so much detail and that so called intervention, is way out there, abnormal.

Whichever way things go, you'll be able to look back and know that you did everything possible and right that a reasonable man could and know your W had to make her own choice of growth or stagnation and go her own way. Or change demonstrably and stay.

You and none of us can mind control our Wives' or other persons, they have to make their own choices.

Stick with it


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

If she wants to use religion to manipulate you, I think two can play that game. And honestly, men will win every time when using scripture. 

I think you need to step up and become the man of the house. Because right now you aren’t. 

Masterbating is not cheating. Lusting after another person is, watching porn is. Next time you want sex and she refuses then just say ok honey. The next day try again, If she refuses say since your own wife won’t have sex with me and she’s the only one who can, I’m going to go masterbate while thinking about you. If she has a problem with that, then tell her to have sex with you or else you will masterbate. 

If she wants to be a jerk and control you, you can give her a taste is her own medicine.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Your W dad, mom and family pastor are not the answer to your W issue with you. They are only back up and not objective observers. Good for you for sticking to finding counselors outside of the circle of people closing in on you saying you are a nut. You are not a nut. Your simply a married man that knows intimacy is a huge part of marriage. Without it, you have nothing but a room mate buddy.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> If she wants to use religion to manipulate you, I think two can play that game. And honestly, men will win every time when using scripture.
> 
> I think you need to step up and become the man of the house. Because right now you aren’t.
> 
> ...


Masturbate - why does everyone get it wrong..??


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Why is the mosspelling so important to harp on?


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why is the mosspelling so important to harp on?


Nuffin' better to do?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why is the mosspelling so important to harp on?


There is always Mr. Bates. LOL


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## cp3o (Jun 2, 2018)

Yeswecan said:


> There is always Mr. Bates. LOL


Often found in close proximity to Rosie Palm and her five daughters I hear.


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## 343359 (Apr 8, 2020)

Honestly I had to learn the hard way you get who you married! Now matter if sometimes you want to do something different or make drastic changes. If person is grounded and rooted in religion or what they will and will not do you then have to choices either accept it and decide to live without it or leave. I know it soind harsh but it's true. She telling you exactly how she really feel about it and to humiliate you in front of family is dead wrong what happens in your household especially sexual has nothing to do with family an friends it's sacred! You have a hard decision to make but you have to choose and accept it. Because if not you will live in agony and pain. Each choice will cost you something you just have to be able to live with your Desicion afterwards. I hate to know someone else is dealing with some of the samething I'm dealing with its hard an heartbreaking but i pray things get better for the both. I made my decision was to leave but I'm on here because even though I want to let everything Go I love my husband an looking for encouragement to stay.


jimbradshawucf said:


> I apologize in advance for the long read, but I feel it'll help with context. My wife and I were both raised in a fairly religious (Christian) upbringing here in the USA. We were both from an early age hammered into our heads that sex before marriage is wrong, etc. We fell in love and married fairly young, I was 21, she was 20. The context here matters - because unlike many couples, we did not experience the "getting to know if we are compatible sexually" phase of a relationship. Those that say "you should have figured this out before getting married" should be aware of that context.
> 
> With the above said, I am now 38 years old. We have 2 kids, I have a successful career as a VP of IT, she's NEVER had to work full time although she does have a work from home position of her own. Life is pretty good in most ways. We enjoy being around each other, and in general in MOST ways life is good... except in the bedroom. I'm very frustrated about some things, and every single time I bring them up - it's a massive fight. I don't know what to do. Here's the details:
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you are dealing with this situation ive been through it. One thing I had to learn was you get who you married. She telling you what she will and will not do. Her mind is completely made up. Now you have a decision to make do you want to live without that kind of passion and love life or do you want to leave. I know it sound harsh but its literally a choice and whatever choice you make you have to let the other go and accept your new normal. I said that because she doesn't want outside help and belittle you with something you are clearly passionate about and I know the rejection can be overwhelming because you just want that level of closeness and intimacy with the love of your life it feels unfair trust me I know ive been their. I had to make a Desicion to accept my love life because my husband is stuck in his ways like concrete I have been miserible every since but I take it because I love him. I'm on here right now for hope because I want to walk away right now but I'm still fighting just remember whatever choice you make will be painful you just have to make sure you are willing to live with it. I pray both of our marriages change.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

This may be an opportunity to set the marriage right. In spite of all that has happened and in spite of the hurt feelings, it sounds like this may actually be a Christian marriage at its core. I'm not talking about beer or masturbation, but what it means to be in a Christian marriage. How we are tasked to be Christ to each other.

You may be up against an immutable personality that wants what she wants, and who is looking for justification from outside of your marriage, but you may also have the opportunity to communicate a need and desire to build a more deeply intimate relationship with her, in which you each commit to considering the other's needs and point of view and have each other's backs.

Marriage isn't about being right, or having someone else tell us who's right. It's about deepening our understanding of each other and our relationship with each other. 

In your shoes, I might ask her to explore as a couple what it means to be in a Christian marriage. Not only "what does the bible say" but "what did Jesus command us to do?" You both have an opportunity to remake your marriage into the image of Christ's love, which is about acceptance, love, and learning to serve each other in every way by seeking to understand and accept that we are two unique people with our own needs trying to make a marriage work.

Unfortunately, no matter how good it feels to put your foot down and say "this way or the highway", you may have more success firmly saying "I am inviting you to learn how we can be Christ to each other". If your pastor won't respect the privacy and holiness of your marriage, choosing to relay your every trial and tribulation to her dad, then you're within your rights to ask for spiritual guidance from someone who will. Ask her to respect that, and give her time to come around.

Here's a decent article about what it means to "cleave to each other" in a Christian marriage. Maybe it will give the two of you something to talk about.









What Does it Mean to Cleave to Your Spouse?


The act of cleaving involves fully respecting your mate, honoring him/ her, knowing them and enjoying that intimacy.




www.crosswalk.com





Best


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

pplwatching said:


> This may be an opportunity to set the marriage right. In spite of all that has happened and in spite of the hurt feelings, it sounds like this may actually be a Christian marriage at its core. I'm not talking about beer or masturbation, but what it means to be in a Christian marriage. How we are tasked to be Christ to each other.
> 
> You may be up against an immutable personality that wants what she wants, and who is looking for justification from outside of your marriage, but you may also have the opportunity to communicate a need and desire to build a more deeply intimate relationship with her, in which you each commit to considering the other's needs and point of view and have each other's backs.
> 
> ...


Brother, you are joking right, this is a joke. 

This poor man has been though enough already, he needs to get out... Read the whole thread...


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## 343359 (Apr 8, 2020)

Marriednatlanta said:


> Stay strong. It’s going to get very bumpy from here on in. And you will be lonely and shunned too (I assume). Have a good plan b for hobby (ride a bike, hiking, etc..)


That took A lot of strenght. I hope to have that kinda strength when it comes to my spouse! I honestly felt like you made the right decision.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> Brother, you are joking right, this is a joke.
> 
> This poor man has been though enough already, he needs to get out... Read the whole thread...


Why would you think it's a joke? I have read the whole thread. For a marriage board, people sure seem to prefer throwing out the baby with the bath water. If he wants out, he can certainly get out without me telling him to. If he's still invested in his marriage, then constructive comments are much more productive than "get out, bro."

This is one of the reasons I don't visit or post here very often. So many "solutions" that offer nothing other than the door.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

pplwatching said:


> Why would you think it's a joke? I have read the whole thread. For a marriage board, people sure seem to prefer throwing out the baby with the bath water. If he wants out, he can certainly get out without me telling him to. If he's still invested in his marriage, then constructive comments are much more productive than "get out, bro."
> 
> This is one of the reasons I don't visit or post here very often. So many "solutions" that offer nothing other than the door.


This guy has been dealing with this for years. To get her to change would be like getting blood from a stone...


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

That's one way to look at it, but it's just your perspective.You don't know his wife. You don't have an intimate relationship with her.

Yes, it's clear that the status quo isn't working. Yes, it's clear that something needs to change. But maybe what needs to change is to stop looking at their problems in terms of who's right and who's wrong. Maybe it's time to ask her to look at their marriage differently, to learn to communicate. It kind of sounds like she's already starting to smell the burnt coffee. Of course that may not work. But at the end of the day, it's not your marriage and it's easier to tell someone to walk away than to offer new ways of approaching the problem.

I'll restate that if you (OP) are still thinking that you may want to be in this marriage, then since your wife professes to be a Christian you may want to work towards building an understanding of what it means to be in a Christian marriage together. It doesn't mean being right, or getting the peanut gallery to tell you who's right. It doesn't mean laying down the law.

My suggestion is, if you are looking for suggestions for fixing your marriage, politely but firmly tell her that the two of you need to learn what it means to minister to each other.

If not, then you don't need the peanut gallery here to tell you divorce is right for you any more than you need your minister or father in law giving your their opinion. Other people's opinions have already been a wrecking ball in your marriage. It's your marriage. This is something you have to decide for yourself. Get back in it or get out of it, but do what you think is right for you and the people that you love.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

jimbradshawucf said:


> She is the sort that would walk in and poke her head in the shower JUST to be like "why do you have a boner? you better not be playing with yourself in there - you KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT THAT!!!!" - it's happened before. Plus I hate the idea of lying to her - she asks me every so often "have you done anything to yourself?" - like I would hate to feel like I have to lie to my own wife you know? I thought the whole point of marriage was to have that ONE PERSON you could be 100% open with. Nope.


Your marriage is not based in equality and respect. She is in charge and you have nothing to say. You either accept it and spend rest of your life like this or go for divorce. Would your life be really that bad without her? It’s like you are teenage boy and she is your mother.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

pplwatching said:


> That's one way to look at it, but it's just your perspective.You don't know his wife. You don't have an intimate relationship with her.
> 
> Yes, it's clear that the status quo isn't working. Yes, it's clear that something needs to change. But maybe what needs to change is to stop looking at their problems in terms of who's right and who's wrong. Maybe it's time to ask her to look at their marriage differently, to learn to communicate. It kind of sounds like she's already starting to smell the burnt coffee. Of course that may not work. But at the end of the day, it's not your marriage and it's easier to tell someone to walk away than to offer new ways of approaching the problem.
> 
> ...


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

pplwatching said:


> That's one way to look at it, but it's just your perspective.You don't know his wife. You don't have an intimate relationship with her.
> 
> Yes, it's clear that the status quo isn't working. Yes, it's clear that something needs to change. But maybe what needs to change is to stop looking at their problems in terms of who's right and who's wrong. Maybe it's time to ask her to look at their marriage differently, to learn to communicate. It kind of sounds like she's already starting to smell the burnt coffee. Of course that may not work. But at the end of the day, it's not your marriage and it's easier to tell someone to walk away than to offer new ways of approaching the problem.
> 
> ...


Wrong! in this thought, maybe it's your user name pplwatching your more concerned with what people are thinking. The illusion. This poor man has been chastised, in the name of religious beliefs. To the umph... degree to keep him towing the line. Your thought only works if both a will to compromise in marriage. If not it's narcissistic brainwashing, from all the zealots claiming God's way. 

BluesPower has it right! righteous has it place and this isn't one of them. His wife is a sick woman, so is all involved who are against him. 

Cultist will use all means to to get a person to be just as they are


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

I appreciate all the perspectives everyone, so thanks for sharing yours! Obviously I'm not going to make a decision solely based on what a random stranger on the internet says, but the input and insights absolutely give me some thoughts, strength, and information to ponder over and make a decision from there. Update for those following.

Last night after work, my wife intercepted me before I talked to the boys. She came into my office in tears and said she wants to find a way to make the marriage work, and is willing to meet with the counselors of my choosing. I told her this was great, but that it doesn't guarantee anything, and that while it's a wonderful first step - just seeing a counselor isn't going to fix our problems. Without a true, genuine, difficult change of heart and behavior from her, it's unworkable - and therefore if she's willing to see the counselor she has to be willing to be open to that, or it won't work. She seemed quite broken hearted and said she is willing to do anything, and even admitted (for the first time in our marriage ever) that she knows she's been selfish, and is sorry.

Now am I just "falling for crocodile tears" here? Maybe / maybe not. I kept up my stoic/professional "this is how it will be" wall through this. I told her I WILL still be talking to our boys; and so I had a discussion with them about the fact mom/dad are having some issues, and will be seeing professional help with the hopes of not divorcing, but that if they see mom/dad decide to go separate ways that it has NOTHING to do with them, and not to be shocked or heartbroken, that nothing will change in my involvement in their lives whatsoever. My older boy (15 years old) just kind of shrugged and said "I get it" - my younger boy (11) had a bit more of a typical kid reaction of "so wait you'd have a house and mom would have a house? who would we live with? why?" - we had to talk through some of those things.

Next was the issue of her family and my family. I called her father back finally. I flatly told him what the situation was, just as candidly as I had my wife. He was calm, and professional as well. He's a pastor and professional counselor himself so unfortunately, he's quite good at putting up a stoic wall himself and not backing down. It was a bit of a standoff as he was very pointed about why I was in the wrong, and wouldn't change his view, and I was very stoic that it's not his business or marriage, and so stay out of it. I ended the conversation by confusing him at his own game in pointing out that the Bible repeatedly talks about keeping your word, and I then proceeded to read to him (still have them!) our wedding vows from all those years ago. Hers explicitly stated that "I commit to you my heart, body, and mind - I'm yours until death do us part." - and I told him then that if he (who actually did our wedding) believes in the sanctity of marriage and the importance of keeping vows as he has preached all these years, then this matter is NOT his business per her commitment, Biblically or otherwise. And I then told him, that she is in violation of those vows by intentionally NOT being committed to me with her heart, body, and mind at this time, and therefore the death do us part is void as well and I would be justified in leaving her. Whether he likes it or not. I ended the call by telling him that the only chance this marriage has at this time of working, is his LACK of involvement, not his involvement. So butt out.

I did NOT call MY family about this matter, because for whatever reason even though she's included hers all the time, she's never included mine, so they don't likely even know we're having issues. Regardless, I don't feel it proper to include people (family or not) that have no business knowing our private business. I only responded to her father because she'd included and asked for him every step of the way for years and it needed said.

At this time, our plan is to meet (zoom meeting due to Covid) Friday with a male/female Christian sex and marriage counseling team that is NOT from our church, and see how this goes from there. I have made it CLEAR that I will NOT back down on my positions, and warned my wife that it may be a bit of a one way street on this venture... she needs to come with humility to hear what the experts say, and a willing heart to change, and that I may not be as willing to change my current position. If she can't handle that... we're done. She knows I'm dead serious because I placed the deposit and first month's rent on a condo about 20 minutes from our current place yesterday. We live in Florida and this condo is on the water - so if we are able to work things out, great - we have a nice vacation place for some time on the beach. If we can't - she knows I now have a place I will go immediately at the first sign of this not going the right direction. I flat out told her - whether the condo becomes a place for me to go when I leave, or a wonderful place for our family to grow together and have fun - is 100% up to your response to this situation right now. You wanted control... you got it. Your marriage is in your hands, because I'm leaving if you don't change.

Curious perspectives here... I know I've received a variety from "work it out" to "leave her" and "asking for sexual things is fine" to "what you asked could be offensive" - and frankly I'm 100% open to all feedback. I promise I'm taking it to heart. Just curious to hear your perspectives as it's truly helping me think this thing through, and I REALLY APPRECIATE ALL OF YOU FOR IT!!!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

jimbradshawucf said:


> It was a bit of a standoff as he was very pointed about why I was in the wrong,


Please elaborate on why he thinks you are in the wrong. It will give insight to your wife's thinking.

Does he know she was not a virgin when you married her?


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Your mistake, you indulge her by talking to her father. This shows weakness on you as a man. 

YOU CAVED!!

No reason to have spoken to her father. They know your weakness and let you destroy yourself. You keep playing their game it's a dogpile. Want to know who's on the bottom? Yup, you know! 

Want to show strength? quit doing what they expect.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Good for standing up for yourself. I'm sure out of respect you called your father-in-law the pastor. Frankly, I would not have called. Your FIL is due no explanation nor did you want or ask for his opinion. Further, your FIL is jaded....this is his daughter after all.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> Please elaborate on why he thinks you are in the wrong. It will give insight to your wife's thinking.
> 
> Does he know she was not a virgin when you married her?


It is not that blondi, not to preempt OP. It is on of those invasive, almost cult like AOG Churches, (I think - the actual branch does not matter- it is a common tactic of churches like this), that try and control the congregation though fear, judgement and peer pressure. 

OP may not see it yet, but i have seen it all my life, and it told everyone involved in that vein of the church to **** off and get lost. I have seen this so much and it is shameful and completely out of the word of God in every way. 

How this took hold in the USA is just a mystery to me...


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## Diceplayer (Oct 12, 2019)

In my opinion, OP handled the call with FIL with strength and respect and at the same time made himself very clear. Well done sir!


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Tilted 1 said:


> Your mistake, you indulge her by talking to her father. This shows weakness on you as a man.
> 
> YOU CAVED!!
> 
> ...


No @Tilted 1, I disagree... 

He told he FIL to go **** himself, and that is the right thing to do here. Tell him to but out. 

Overall he handled this pretty well. But I have some questions for OP. 

When you say that her father is a "professional counselor" do you mean that he is licensed through the state of Florida as a therapist? If he is he should lose his license.

Or are you saying that as a pastor, he has studied and practiced counseling people and couples in the church. That is a really big difference. 

I would really like this question answered if you can...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I have no knowledge of that church. It just seems that the more you know about the situation, the better one can advise. If his wife is going to be (essentially) deprogrammed or reprogrammed, then he needs to know what he is up against. Her daddy programmed her so any insight into his teachings can be useful.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> I have no knowledge of that church. It just seems that the more you know about the situation, the better one can advise. If his wife is going to be (essentially) deprogrammed or reprogrammed, then he needs to know what he is up against. Her daddy programmed her so any insight into his teachings can be useful.


I'm sure OP understand daddy's insight and teachings on his daughter thus the reason for requiring he butt out. Time for a 3rd party objective perspective.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

As to the over all situation with OP. I read your preamble.

And while no one is trying to tell you what to do, we are telling you what has worked. Most of us are a little older than you which may or may not matter.

I want to say several things, and some of them you will not like, but please listen to them in the spirit that they are offered. (That spirit is trying to actually help you overall, not necessarily what "YOU WANT" to happen right now. But what is, and has been proven over time to work)

With respect, I want you to take a look at your church, and I am a Christian. There are things that you have describe in just this thread, that have happened in and around the church that are not biblical. I challenge anyone to find an example of some of this behavior, in the context that it happened, in the bible. I believe you cannot.

Google Christian cults. Google sign of a cult, or something like that. Read the bible and ask for discernment, and see what the Spirit says to you.

Next topic: Over all I think you did great, really great. The question is, are you strong enough to follow through and possibly fix your marriage, or if you have to get a divorce and move on. I am starting to think that you are strong enough or you are getting strong enough to do this.

Now, your wife... Yes these are crocodile tears, and it may be desperation. I think they are, and only time will tell if she is capable of change. Frankly i am betting against it, but you never know...

But I want you to think about one thing.... If your wife has been consulting your FIL every step of the way, then his advice is abusive, wrong, un-biblical. If we say that your wife is not stupid or something and she took her fathers advice on these matters then that is really messed up.

This may also give you a glimpse of how she was raised and how messed up sexually she, her father, and her mother are. Frankly brother, that is a lot to overcome...

Also, she she say she has been selfish, that is a lie from Satan. She is not selfish, she is abusive. And her father is abusive. And before you dismiss that, think about, google about, what abuse is... SHE IS ABUSIVE...

Stay the course, but remember, you never deserved this, it was never right, it was abuse, and if it does not change you have to get out of this situation...

Think of is like this... If one of your sons got involved in a marriage like this with this much abuse, what you tell him to do? Would you want him to be a miserable weak door mat, or would you want him to be a strong man that knew he was worth more that this, and that he deserved better...


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

BluesPower said:


> No @Tilted 1, I disagree...
> 
> He told he FIL to go **** himself, and that is the right thing to do here. Tell him to but out.
> 
> ...


Not talking to him, weather handing it professionally. I wouldn't have given him any curiosity, or benefit of doubt. I (speaking for myself) not talking to him would have drawing the hard the line. And would have said in no words f-off. It's the only way to handle this type of people. 

But again, to me it's more a slap in the face when, " no reply is the best reply_.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Tilted 1 said:


> Not talking to him, weather handing it professionally. I wouldn't have given him any curiosity, or benefit of doubt. I (speaking for myself) not talking to him would have drawing the hard the line. And would have said in no words f-off. It's the only way to handle this type of people.
> 
> But again, to me it's more a slap in the face when, " no reply is the best reply_.


I get what you are saying and time will tell. 

I this case I think that OP had to take charge and tell "daddy" to get lost and stay lost.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Yeswecan said:


> I'm sure OP understand daddy's insight and teachings on his daughter thus the reason for requiring he butt out. Time for a 3rd party objective perspective.


The OP may very well understand; but, we don't and he is here seeking advice. The better informed we are, the better we can support him.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

@jimbradshawucf 

You have to stop doing what "they" expect, and courteously depart from any lecturing started, direction giving starting, and really any, any any (critical, this any at all) engagement with "them" on marriage subject.

If you choose to share your positive message of YOUR marriage if it was to be a great, happy, and very normal marriage with any of them, do so in a short polite manner as in telling in statements to them.

But it would be best not to engage anyone but your W in conversations on your M.

As in not, not, not, don't do it.

You can't control who your W talks too and that's expected, well ok, that's her burden or process.

The more you're disengaged with all but her, eventually she'll slow down in running back and forth to others, that's her process, and can be expected.

Logic and negotiation aren't your friends in discussions with W and "others".

*You can't expect to negotiate them *into thinking the (proper and normal) same way as you're thinking and acting, and want to have a better, adult M between you and W..

As your objective is to have a peaceful, normal M, your Ws and others giving you this peace (if your W really wants to stay married, her call, and I think she will in the long run) will only come from their acceptance. 

And I mean their actions demonstrating they've accepted the new (and good job for standing up for yourself) *married life circumstances where you get the things you want* out of the M as well as continuing your positive, good natured, and supportive position in the marriage. 

Statements and actions are your best friends here. Yours, and observing your wife's as you grow in this whole process

The above are key, critical topics to seriously ponder and put to use as you work for peace in this M.

I believe it's possible with your W, only time will tell, but either way you will make it through. 

Be firm and resolute.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Congratulations.
You stood up as a man should.
You exercised the fiat of strength to stand up to your bullying wife and your interloping FIL.
Given the reaction of your kids, I'd say they are on board.
Yesterday, I mentioned deprogramming. I predict that will become key to you.
From your description, I'd say that either the principles of your church are cult-like, or are being espoused in a cult-like manner, under the tutelage of your pastor and FIL.
You appear to have gotten your wife's attention, which is positive. She may have figured out that the grass is greener on your side of the septic tank. She could realize that her future is not viable on the "Open market." Use that to your advantage. Now the key is, will she follow?
Hopefully, your counselor(s) can see and are skilled in helping to untangle the web in which she is weaved. Deprogramming will be key.
Be strong. Stay the course. You are certain to get more blowback from the MIL, her family, and the pastor will try to pester. Do not flinch.
Lead your family to a better place should be your first objective. If the missus does not wish to come along, find a better life for you and your kids.
Above all else, get away from that church. Find one with a healthy perspective on life.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jimbradshawucf said:


> I appreciate all the perspectives everyone, so thanks for sharing yours! Obviously I'm not going to make a decision solely based on what a random stranger on the internet says, but the input and insights absolutely give me some thoughts, strength, and information to ponder over and make a decision from there. Update for those following.
> 
> Last night after work, my wife intercepted me before I talked to the boys. She came into my office in tears and said she wants to find a way to make the marriage work, and is willing to meet with the counselors of my choosing. I told her this was great, but that it doesn't guarantee anything, and that while it's a wonderful first step - just seeing a counselor isn't going to fix our problems. Without a true, genuine, difficult change of heart and behavior from her, it's unworkable - and therefore if she's willing to see the counselor she has to be willing to be open to that, or it won't work. She seemed quite broken hearted and said she is willing to do anything, and even admitted (for the first time in our marriage ever) that she knows she's been selfish, and is sorry.
> 
> ...


All of this is very good... if you weren't really dealing with cultish behavior here. If you get your whole family away from this frankly bizarre religious community you're embedded in... then maybe she can detox her brain. But if you don't, no amount of crocodile tears or 'trying' will do anything. 

They will wear you down through ego depletion, continuous manipulation, and appealing to your sense of integrity... while they have none, as you rightly and logically pointed out to her dad. He may be stoic, but he's a stoic manipulative abusive control freak. 

My read - the tears are real but borne of shock and fear, not of any desire to change. She has had you right where she wants you, and now you're not playing. Her intention is not likely going to be to go someplace scary and where she needs to tame her own demons - it's going to be to put you back in your place, long-term. 

I suspect they will attempt to take a long view with you here, play your games a bit, and slowly reel you back in. Even if it takes years. Or the whole community will reject you outright - because if you don't live under their thumb, then others will realize they don't have to, either.

If I were you, the only way that I'd consider trying is if you go no contact with her dad (which is an awful thing to ask), the church, everything. Gone. The four of you live on your own, away from this BS.

And temper your expectations. She's not likely ever going to get over this religious programming, _especially_ when it comes to sex. The best you're going to have with her is likely to be 'meh' - and that's even if you succeed.

So I guess it's up to you, man.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Lots of interesting replies. I'll try to answer all the incoming questions here and clarify a few things.

*Question: Someone asked why FIL thinks I'm in the wrong.
Answer*: His answer is 3 parts. Part 1: He feels that any sexual activity whatsoever outside of a husband/wife is a sin, therefore if I masturbate in any way that's a sin. Part 2: He feels that alcohol use in any way outside of medicinally is sin. For me to have a beer in my home is a sin in his mind. Part 3: He feels that sex is a gift to be given between spouses, and therefore to ever ask for it is wrong in any capacity whether BJs, or regular sex. In his mind it's never right to ask for physical attentions from your spouse.

My opinion on his positions: 1. My body is my body. 2. Nowhere Biblically is his alcohol position provable and in fact Jesus turned water into wine in the Bible so he's wrong. Pastor or not. 3. How can someone be told in one sense asking for something is wrong, but in the other sense every single marriage counselor on the planet says communication is the first and foremost important thing for a proper sex life. Not asking for things in my view is a way for her to just never do them and gaslight me if I bring it up.


*Question: People have said I shouldn't have talked to FIL
Answer*: I totally respect this view and understand it. I did consider just middle finger to him, don't talk to him. But I did feel that there was something about telling him he needs to butt out and knock it off in an official man to man capacity that needed to happen. I feel that if he's still meddling with my wife's head on this matter, it's only making it worse. Maybe you could call it empowering or whatever - but there was just something to be said for telling him once and for all that this is none of his business, and he is to back off if he cares about his daughter's marriage.


*Point stated by you all: Stop doing what they want*
Response: I agree fully and thank you ALL for this input - it's helped me more than you all could even know!!!


*Question: Is FIL Licensed Counselor
Answer: *Not sure. He does marriage counseling as part of his pastoral job, but I really don't know.


*Point stated: Find a new church*
Answer: I definitely will be. Part of the call to FIL was to inform him of my decision to leave the church as part of all of this and find a new, neutral church.
Thanks!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Tilted 1 said:


> Not talking to him, weather handing it professionally. I wouldn't have given him any curiosity, or benefit of doubt. I (speaking for myself) not talking to him would have drawing the hard the line. And would have said in no words f-off. It's the only way to handle this type of people.
> 
> But again, to me it's more a slap in the face when, " no reply is the best reply_.


I dunno. I think he was playing chess and his FIL was playing checkers. He beat him at his own game.

I did the same once with my fundamentalist FIL. He kept demanding that his daughter come over and do stuff for them - things like clean their house while they were away, restock the fridge, etc. I finally put my foot down. He said it's 'her duty to God' or something. I pointed out the parts of the Koran and Hadiths that make the wife's highest duties to her husband, and not her father - and that I'm not doing the cooking and cleaning so that my wife cooks and cleans for him.

He stopped demanding that immediately, and didn't fight me on it further. Because to do so would be contrary to his own beliefs. He only thought he could get away with it with me because I didn't convert.

Of course, I do my fair share of cooking and cleaning, I was just making a point.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Tilted 1 said:


> Your mistake, you indulge her by talking to her father. This shows weakness on you as a man.
> 
> YOU CAVED!!
> 
> ...


He absolutely needed to confront his FIL to show that he is a man in charge of his destiny.
His wife needed to see that would stand up to and would not be intimidated by one of her "Compliance thugs."
He said the right thing, that the FIL's views were irrelevant, he has the husband was taking control of his situation , and that FIL can F'Off.
He needed to plant his flag and fly it!
Kudos to him.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Lots of interesting replies. I'll try to answer all the incoming questions here and clarify a few things.
> 
> *Question: Someone asked why FIL thinks I'm in the wrong.
> Answer*: His answer is 3 parts. Part 1: He feels that any sexual activity whatsoever outside of a husband/wife is a sin, therefore if I masturbate in any way that's a sin. Part 2: He feels that alcohol use in any way outside of medicinally is sin. For me to have a beer in my home is a sin in his mind. Part 3: He feels that sex is a gift to be given between spouses, and therefore to ever ask for it is wrong in any capacity whether BJs, or regular sex. In his mind it's never right to ask for physical attentions from your spouse.
> ...


1. Bingo. He's just making **** up, and this speaks more to his hangups than it does anything the bible says. Your body, your rules. You are supposed to communicate, not wait in a covert contract. And FFS, to your point, Jesus himself _made _booze.
2. I think you did the right thing. You will have to continue it, though. It's far from over. Go pull bible quotes out about the duties of a wife and husband and have them ready - he will try to catch you off guard at some point.
3. Groovy.
4. I think your FIL is a manipulative asshole that is harming others. I can't imagine the damage he's done.
5. 100%

This is a good path, man. I personally give you very small odds of making this out without divorcing, but I think _you_ will make it out at any rate. Be careful not to show any vulnerability or weakness with anyone, especially your wife.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Tdbo said:


> He absolutely needed to confront his FIL to show that he is a man in charge of his destiny.
> His wife needed to see that would stand up to and would not be intimidated by one of her "Compliance thugs."
> He said the right thing, that the FIL's views were irrelevant, he has the husband was taking control of his situation , and that FIL can F'Off.
> He needed to plant his flag and fly it!
> Kudos to him.


This is exactly why I finally called him to discuss. I felt that (call it empowerment whatever you want) it needed to be done to officially put it out there that I'm not taking any more of his, her, or the church's nonsense on this matter. And since he runs the church organization in our area, to let him know we'll be finding a new church for my family where I'm not feeling like my family's inner personal relations are subject to oversight by him. I was trying to basically put him on notice that his daughter's marriage will be ending if he continues to mess with her head and meddle - and that he's doing harm and to stop. I saw it as standing up for my family once and for all and making it clear. I'm not saying it was perfect... maybe others would handle it differently - but I felt it needed done.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Marduk said:


> 1. Bingo. He's just making **** up, and this speaks more to his hangups than it does anything the bible says. Your body, your rules. You are supposed to communicate, not wait in a covert contract. And FFS, to your point, Jesus himself _made _booze.
> 2. I think you did the right thing. You will have to continue it, though. It's far from over. Go pull bible quotes out about the duties of a wife and husband and have them ready - he will try to catch you off guard at some point.
> 3. Groovy.
> 4. I think your FIL is a manipulative asshole that is harming others. I can't imagine the damage he's done.
> ...


Thanks for your perspective! I also feel the odds are stacked against me, but I don't want to throw out a 16 year marriage without giving it every chance it deserves. If after this, we don't make it - I won't be looking back on my life someday saying "maybe we could've made that work" - I'll know there was nothing which could be done. I want to move on knowing I did my best in every way if that's what needs to happen. It's a peace of mind thing more than anything.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Lots of interesting replies. I'll try to answer all the incoming questions here and clarify a few things.
> 
> *Question: Someone asked why FIL thinks I'm in the wrong.
> Answer*: His answer is 3 parts. Part 1: He feels that any sexual activity whatsoever outside of a husband/wife is a sin, therefore if I masturbate in any way that's a sin. Part 2: He feels that alcohol use in any way outside of medicinally is sin. For me to have a beer in my home is a sin in his mind. Part 3: He feels that sex is a gift to be given between spouses, and therefore to ever ask for it is wrong in any capacity whether BJs, or regular sex. In his mind it's never right to ask for physical attentions from your spouse.


Your FIL is following (his)man made rules. Your W has been programmed for this nonsense. Our pastor held an entire sermon on sex between a H and W. It is ok to fly the freak flag. It is ok to desire and ask for physical attention. These are basic needs for many. The Bible is not shy about this.

I bet your MIL has lived a sexless marriage.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Lots of interesting replies. I'll try to answer all the incoming questions here and clarify a few things.
> 
> *Question: Someone asked why FIL thinks I'm in the wrong.
> Answer*: His answer is 3 parts. Part 1: He feels that any sexual activity whatsoever outside of a husband/wife is a sin, therefore if I masturbate in any way that's a sin. Part 2: He feels that alcohol use in any way outside of medicinally is sin. For me to have a beer in my home is a sin in his mind. Part 3: He feels that sex is a gift to be given between spouses, and therefore to ever ask for it is wrong in any capacity whether BJs, or regular sex. In his mind it's never right to ask for physical attentions from your spouse.
> ...


This is just so great... 

Your fathers thoughts in #1 are completely insane... I had no idea it was that bad... Wow, just wow.

Everything he said it wrong bionically, every single word. I just has no idea it was really that bad. I was thinking on a scale of 1 to 10 that is was maybe a 6 on the crazy cult scale, but this is an 11. 

On question 4, you would know if he was licensed. And this is the problem with pastors that think they are counselors or therapist, they are not. I know that in the main stream churches they can help in some ways, but they can hurt more. In this respect I really think that lots of, even the regular churches, do a disservice to the congregation. 

Just one more reason to get out... And frankly, you have a duty to speak out against that church, which I a guessing that you don't want to get involved with, but you kind of do... Comes under spreading the true gospel, and speaking truth... 

You are really doing great, keep it up...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Thanks for your perspective! I also feel the odds are stacked against me, but I don't want to throw out a 16 year marriage without giving it every chance it deserves. If after this, we don't make it - I won't be looking back on my life someday saying "maybe we could've made that work" - I'll know there was nothing which could be done. I want to move on knowing I did my best in every way if that's what needs to happen. It's a peace of mind thing more than anything.


Just temper your expectations, especially when it comes to sex. If you really want a profoundly erotic relationship, it will probably never be with her. If that's what you need... it might be best to just bail now and save you both a lot of heartache and years.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Yeswecan said:


> I bet your MIL has lived a sexless marriage.


Heavy odds his FIL is gay or has some profound kinks that he's forced himself to repress... and part of that repression is forcing others to do the same.

I mean, it's basically a cliche at this point.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Marduk said:


> I dunno. I think he was playing chess and his FIL was playing checkers. He beat him at his own game.
> 
> I did the same once with my fundamentalist FIL. He kept demanding that his daughter come over and do stuff for them - things like clean their house while they were away, restock the fridge, etc. I finally put my foot down. He said it's 'her duty to God' or something. I pointed out the parts of the Koran and Hadiths that make the wife's highest duties to her husband, and not her father - and that I'm not doing the cooking and cleaning so that my wife cooks and cleans for him.
> 
> ...


But it is as you stated why I took the stance if no contact they will reel him back in. It been refined to an art, how the use you against youself. Get a toe in the doorway before long their inside casting shame and scripture at you. 

They won't stop until he stops them including his own parents. They all drank the koolaid, and it's sweet as can be.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Marduk said:


> Heavy odds his FIL is gay or has some profound kinks that he's forced himself to repress... and part of that repression is forcing others to do the same.
> 
> I mean, it's basically a cliche at this point.


This is so true. Can you actually wrap your head around how F'ed up the FIL is? Just think about it, there is some dark stuff there.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Marduk said:


> Heavy odds his FIL is gay or has some profound kinks that he's forced himself to repress... and part of that repression is forcing others to do the same.
> 
> I mean, it's basically a cliche at this point.


We have seen this all to often certainly.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Marduk said:


> Just temper your expectations, especially when it comes to sex. If you really want a profoundly erotic relationship, it will probably never be with her. If that's what you need... it might be best to just bail now and save you both a lot of heartache and years.



I concur with Marduk. This notion of sex and marriage has been ingrained into your W mind. I would venture a guess guilt would play a large part if erotic whatever were to occur.


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## Tobeknown (Mar 24, 2020)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Just curious to hear your perspectives as it's truly helping me think this thing through, and I REALLY APPRECIATE ALL OF YOU FOR IT!!!


Hi Jim (not your name but what the heck)

I totally understand why you needed to get your voice heard, man to man, with your FIL. I would bet you've been just waiting for that moment to finally tell him all the things you did. Taking back control of your life does mean telling the ones who took it from you (ok you did kinda give it to them) that you've had enough and it will be different from this day on.

I'm proud of you! I think you are finally doing what you should have done all along.
As for the FIL, he's long set in his ways, you'll never change his view that you're wrong and I think it will become a thorn in your side eventually. I don't think he's done with trying to rein you back to his faulty way of thinking. I was part of the AOG and I left for good reason and won't go back. Ever. I'm all about the non denominational now because of the faulty thinking, the power and control, the blatant abuse and mental manipulation. 
Your wife was steeped heavily in that thinking and unless she's willing to open her eyes, mind, and heart to the truth that she's been absolutely wrong... Then you'll know what to do next. 

Crocodile tears? Hmmmm hard to say as I don't know her. But you do and you know whether or not she's used them to manipulate you in the past to get her way. I think the fact you asked suggests that you already think they could be, because again, you know her and her patterns.

Look, I'm all for saving a marriage *if* it truly can be saved and *if *both parties commit to a fresh start. I'll admit from her terrible actions that she's been an abusive spoiled princess who took your manhood over many years and owned you. And you let her. You probably did it because you were under the same faulty teaching from that church for the past 2+ decades. This way of thinking, for her, is part of what she's been taught and all she knows because her father, Mr. Control, taught her this from the time she was born. 
I'm not saying it's impossible but I'm not sure how she's going to ever change how she views anything without that AOG filter. 

I spent many years trying to fix something broken and no matter the effort, it wasn't going to be fixed. By my exH was a different creature altogether. I can relate that you may still love her and may want to give it one last hurrah so you can leave in peace knowing you really tried. More than you should have perhaps. 

I think when a marriage is finally over we all have that "point of no return" where there's been so much damage and whatever love was there, is now replaced with apathy. 

There's a part of me that feels like I'm watching that movie "The Truman Show" and we're all in the background just watching and waiting for you to break free of the bondage and live without being treated like a oppressed child. 

Regardless I, like all the others here, truly do wish you the very best no matter what. You appear to be a very good husband and you want to live happily. I hope you do.
Just my two cents from "the peanut gallery" 😉


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Marduk said:


> Just temper your expectations, especially when it comes to sex. If you really want a profoundly erotic relationship, it will probably never be with her. If that's what you need... it might be best to just bail now and save you both a lot of heartache and years.


I think he has tempered himself in realism.
I think he's aware that he has a full rebuild project here.
There is a lot of hard work, self exploration and hard choices that have to occur for things to be viable.
Christian counseling is a good start, but to have any kind of healthy relationship (even leaving quality of sex out of it) it will require her to be broken down to base level and relearn her entire value system in a healthy way. This is probably going to take a broader skill set then the average christian counselor possesses.
If they stand a chance one of two things will probably need to happen: 1) She will need to separate from her family/church, and/or 2) FIL's "Empire" will need to come crashing down on his head.
It speaks positively of him that he is giving it a shot.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

Tilted 1 said:


> Maybe it's your user name pplwatching your more concerned with what people are thinking.


Let me pick apart your suggestion based on your username? Really?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Tdbo said:


> I think he has tempered himself in realism.
> I think he's aware that he has a full rebuild project here.
> There is a lot of hard work, self exploration and hard choices that have to occur for things to be viable.
> Christian counseling is a good start, but to have any kind of healthy relationship (even leaving quality of sex out of it) it will require her to be broken down to base level and relearn her entire value system in a healthy way. This is probably going to take a broader skill set then the average christian counselor possesses.
> ...


Agree, but here's what I'm getting at. In my experience, I've dated and been in LTRs with a few women that have had religious overtones with sex. In my experience:

If you're not in an LTR, and she views you as a bit of a boy-toy, then they were absolutely wild in the sack. Nothing off the table, particularly with the catholic girls. I mean, they could do their hail marys at confession and all was well. 
As soon as you were in a committed relationship however, it would all change. Without exception in my experience. The crazy sex would dry up, lingering guilt would overlay everything, and everything was 'a sin.' Also, my role went from 'fun guy to be around and bounce up and down on' to 'you should be acting more like a husband, and husband's don't ask for things like this.' In my experience, I have never had a good sex life with a woman that had religious guilt or control feelings about sex. Even the same women that would be wild while we were casual - sometimes especially so.
My point is that if you've been raised with this kind of thing in your head, it's not likely to get out anytime soon, and even if it does, it will only marginally do so.

I also consider her at a high liklihood of having an affair at some point, btw.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Marduk said:


> 1. Bingo. He's just making **** up, and this speaks more to his hangups than it does anything the bible says. Your body, your rules. You are supposed to communicate, not wait in a covert contract. And FFS, to your point, Jesus himself _made _booze.
> 2. I think you did the right thing. You will have to continue it, though. It's far from over. Go pull bible quotes out about the duties of a wife and husband and have them ready - he will try to catch you off guard at some point.
> 3. Groovy.
> 4. I think your FIL is a manipulative asshole that is harming others. I can't imagine the damage he's done.
> ...


I agree with @Marduk that the FIL and the rest all have some F'ed up dark secrets they are hiding - especially about the MASTURBATION thing -- that is just tooooooo weird! This is far from over -- and I think it possible nothing happens. A big blow up, some promises some vague threats etc...or the nuclear option. 

I know from experience - if you see progress and think its getting better, your level of anger etc all lessens, in a nano second.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I am hopeful that you will save your marriage. I think it will take time but you and your wife will eventually be on the same page, and that’s a new page for both of you. 
Just remember your wife’s point of view as well. People can’t snap their fingers and dissolve their upbringing and beliefs. But as long as she puts in effort and you don’t have too high expectations for her, I think she will slowly “get it”. Also, don’t be so hard on her that you lose feelings for her or that soft spot that you should have for her in your heart.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> I am hopeful that you will save your marriage. I think it will take time but you and your wife will eventually be on the same page, and that’s a new page for both of you.
> Just remember your wife’s point of view as well. People can’t snap their fingers and dissolve their upbringing and beliefs. But as long as she puts in effort and you don’t have too high expectations for her, I think she will slowly “get it”. Also, don’t be so hard on her that you lose feelings for her or that soft spot that you should have for her in your heart.


 @Girl_power I hope you are right - I have been trying for long time.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Marduk said:


> Agree, but here's what I'm getting at. In my experience, I've dated and been in LTRs with a few women that have had religious overtones with sex. In my experience:
> 
> If you're not in an LTR, and she views you as a bit of a boy-toy, then they were absolutely wild in the sack. Nothing off the table, particularly with the catholic girls. I mean, they could do their hail marys at confession and all was well.
> As soon as you were in a committed relationship however, it would all change. Without exception in my experience. The crazy sex would dry up, lingering guilt would overlay everything, and everything was 'a sin.' Also, my role went from 'fun guy to be around and bounce up and down on' to 'you should be acting more like a husband, and husband's don't ask for things like this.' In my experience, I have never had a good sex life with a woman that had religious guilt or control feelings about sex. Even the same women that would be wild while we were casual - sometimes especially so.
> ...


I agree with this. She evidently rebelled against the wishes of dear ol' Dad in her teens and had her BF before meeting the OP. 
He got the repressed version, as well as the holier-than-thou treatment.
I agree with the affair potential. Hope for OP's sake that never happened.
Obviously, if he had a do-over, he would probably have been best throwing her back in the pond.
However, he is married with kids, and values family.
He wants to try to do the right thing.
I don't envy him. He probably at best has a 50% chance at success (and that is if she truly gives 150% and the stars align.)


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Marriednatlanta said:


> @Girl_power I hope you are right - I have been trying for long time.


But it seems like this is the first time she is actually hearing you no? Or have all the other attempts been like this?


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> But it seems like this is the first time she is actually hearing you no? Or have all the other attempts been like this?


Don't want to hijack this thread - LOL - I have my very own! "20 Years later"


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Tdbo said:


> I agree with this. She evidently rebelled against the wishes of dear ol' Dad in her teens and had her BF before meeting the OP.
> He got the repressed version, as well as the holier-than-thou treatment.
> I agree with the affair potential. Hope for OP's sake that never happened.


Bingo. I'm not trying to tell him to just divorce her, I'm trying to get him to be realistic.

His best case scenario here is likely something fairly conservative sexually speaking - and his worst case scenario is either an affair or full blown cult brainwashing of him and his kids.

Given that kind of spectrum of probabilities, I'd be noping out of there. But I get where he's at.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Girl_power said:


> But it seems like this is the first time she is actually hearing you no? Or have all the other attempts been like this?


When people come to 'sudden realizations' it almost never sticks in my experience.

I give it 2 weeks and she'll start bible thumping him.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

Marduk said:


> When people come to 'sudden realizations' it almost never sticks in my experience.
> 
> I give it 2 weeks and she'll start bible thumping him.


It will come down to resolve.....it always does.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Marduk said:


> When people come to 'sudden realizations' it almost never sticks in my experience.
> 
> I give it 2 weeks and she'll start bible thumping him.


Hopefully he stays the course and thumps his divorce papers.
From what he said, it sounds like she realizes her marital "Skill set" is not in demand.
He needs to maintain the narrative and go full court press.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Tdbo said:


> Hopefully he stays the course and thumps his divorce papers.
> From what he said, it sounds like she realizes her marital "Skill set" is not in demand.
> He needs to maintain the narrative and go full court press.


Probably more a test of what will shame her more:

Being ashamed of being divorced
Being ashamed of leaving her church and disobeying her father
I don't see a lot of love here. I do see the potential for toxic shame, however.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Marduk said:


> Probably more a test of what will shame her more:
> 
> Being ashamed of being divorced
> Being ashamed of leaving her church and disobeying her father
> I don't see a lot of love here.


Hard to say.
She didn't seem to have a whole lot of problem disobeying dad back in the day.
She likes control. Dad, church and the pastor provide the enforcement arm.
I'd guess some of #1, with some fear of being alone.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

Jim,
She will eventually drift back to what has worked for her. You need to prevent that from happening. Eventually she will go nuclear on you to try to gain control again. My wife used to do this with me and still tries. It was her way of controlling the conversation and marriage. I had to put a stop to it. When she went nuclear I simply told her that she better not be talking to me like that and put an end to the conversation. I would then go about my business as if she never said a word. I would do something that I want to do and act like nothing happened. If she started again i would tell her if she would like to have a calm reasonable discussion fine, If your going to try to yell at me or be rude then the discussion is not happeneing.

Do not tolerate it any longer, ever!

And is they ever try that intervention thing again put an immediate end to that. Tell all of them to mind their own business and get out of your house.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

Marduk said:


> Probably more a test of what will shame her more:
> 
> Being ashamed of being divorced
> Being ashamed of leaving her church and disobeying her father
> I don't see a lot of love here. I do see the potential for toxic shame, however.


I think that another possibility is that she loves him, but hasn't had good role models teaching her how to be one half of a deeply intimate love relationship. There are plenty of bad role models out there, teaching us to be mercenaries and to grab and hold the high ground at all cost. We give no quarter because that's how we protect our interests. Maybe that's what she learned from watching her parent's relationship - that inflexibility and rigid rules are how you fireproof a marriage.

She may also have genuinely believed that 'we agreed on these rules', not really understanding that she was unilaterally deciding while ignoring his wants and needs.

There aren't many great examples in plain view of how to love another person, develop a truly intimate bond, and nurture and nourish a thriving relationship. If she is open to learning how to create a marriage that is uniquely theirs and meets each of their needs, they have a chance.

Only time will tell if she wants to be a marriage partner, but it's a good sign that she seems to be willing to address the problems in the marriage. Maybe she sees the world in terms of your two options. Maybe she's just trying to understand how to save her marriage.

In any event, this is the time they will each find out who they truly are and what their marriage is made out of. Trial by fire is painful, but we can emerge better people if that's what we want and if we have the opportunity. There's always back-sliding and regressing into old behaviors, but once we learn to recognize them we can make adjustments.

Cautiously optimistic is an okay place to be for now.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Marduk said:


> When people come to 'sudden realizations' it almost never sticks in my experience.
> 
> I give it 2 weeks and she'll start bible thumping him.


And he can bible thump him back. 

At the end of the day everyone has their own personal beliefs and convictions. He should have manned up to begin with and told her that he does not share her view on alcohol and masterbating and therefore will live his life according to his own standards not hers. 

As a Christian person myself, I have my own rules and beliefs and I hold no one to my beliefs. And no one can tell me how to live my life either. His wife can believe whatever she wants and live by that. But she cannot apply her beliefs and expectations on her husband and punish him when he doesn’t follow suit. That conversation should have took place from day 1. It’s called respecting each other’s differences and lifestyles.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> And he can bible thump him back.
> 
> At the end of the day everyone has their own personal beliefs and convictions. He should have manned up to begin with and told her that he does not share her view on alcohol and masterbating and therefore will live his life according to his own standards not hers.
> 
> As a Christian person myself, I have my own rules and beliefs and I hold no one to my beliefs. And no one can tell me how to live my life either. His wife can believe whatever she wants and live by that. But she cannot apply her beliefs and expectations on her husband and punish him when he doesn’t follow suit. That conversation should have took place from day 1. It’s called respecting each other’s differences and lifestyles.


While for the most part I agree. 

I really don't think you have seen churches like this one. Not all AOG churches are this bad, but it happens a lot. 

He probably went along with it because he did not know better. Hell a few days ago her was wondering if all this crap was OK. 

Thing is, this stuff happens like the frog in boiling water. 

I thank God he woke up and realized what was going on...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

The best he'll get may be resentful, duty sex. 

Alcohol for medicinal purposes - lol. Guess who has a bottle of vodka stashed under the bathroom sink for 'medicinal' purposes. He probably has one in his nightstand, too.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

What’s missing here is respect. He has to respect his wife’s beliefs and allow her to live a life according to that. She needs to respect his beliefs, and allow him to live his life accordingly. 
Him trying to convince his FIL that masterbation and drinking is fine, is just as wrong as his FIL trying to convince him that it’s wrong. They are missing the point here. He needs to respect his FIL beliefs and not try to change them. But he needs to be a man, and state that he doesn’t share that belief and won’t be held accountable for it. 


In defense of his wife.... she thought they shared these beliefs. Or somewhere along the road, she believes that she changed his belief to hers BECAUSE he started to obey her, and act like he agrees with her. This was wrong. He should have took a stand right away. So there was some deception in his part. There was such a lack of communication and even lack of understanding of who each other even are. My point is that he is not innocent of this situation. 

He contributed to where their marriage is right now:


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> The best he'll get may be resentful, duty sex.
> 
> Alcohol for medicinal purposes - lol. Guess who has a bottle of vodka stashed under the bathroom sink for 'medicinal' purposes. He probably has one in his nightstand, too.


I disagree. That’s worse case scenario. Best case scenario she realizes he is a good person, good father, good husband, and good Christian and she actually starts to respect him. 

I am Christian. In the Bible it never says to love your husband. Not once. It says it multiple times though that a husband has to love his wife. You know what it calls the wives to do? RESPECT their husbands. When a women loses respect for a man, it’s all down hill. Men need respect. I personally will never be sexually attracted, or want to please a man I don’t respect. It’s really hard to respect a man when he rolls over during every fight. When she can yell and control and treat poorly.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> What’s missing here is respected. He has to respect his wife’s beliefs and allow her to live a life according to that. She needs to respect his beliefs, and allow him to live his life accordingly.
> Him trying to convince his FIL that masturbation and drinking is fine, is just as wrong as his FIL trying to convince him that it’s wrong. They are missing the point here. He needs to respect his FIL beliefs and not try to change them. But he needs to be a man, and state that he doesn’t share that belief and won’t be held accountable for it.
> 
> In defense of his wife.... she thought they shared these beliefs. Or somewhere along the road, she believes that she changed his belief to hers BECAUSE he started to obey her, and act like he agrees with her. This was wrong. He should have took a stand right away. So there was some deception in his part. There was such a lack of communication and even lack of understanding of who each other even are. My point is that he is not innocent of this situation.


How can anyone say this, I am surprised by you @Girl_power .

There are basic things in the mainstream Christian doctrine, that are basically agreed on by most mainstream denominations. They disagree about alcohol for example. But many MS churches don't have a problem with it. But besides that, most of what OP talked about in this thread and not in the mainstream.

I wish OP would comment but i assure you, betting actually, that OP did not agree to some of the sex limitations that seem to have been imposed in the marriage.

So no, if this stuff was not known he owes her NOTHING at all. He may have went along to get along, maybe that was weak but it is not wrong. I am betting, again, that he did not agree with any of this.

And let's say that he did for a while... What people cannot change their mind about things, they cannot grow or want different things.

If you want to say that OP should have figured out this stuff before now, well ok, maybe. But to say that he is somehow wrong in what he wants, i don't know, i cannot see myself...


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> How can anyone say this, I am surprised by you @Girl_power .
> 
> There are basic things in the mainstream Christian doctrine, that are basically agreed on by most mainstream denominations. They disagree about alcohol for example. But many MS churches don't have a problem with it. But besides that, most of what OP talked about in this thread and not in the mainstream.
> 
> ...


I didn’t say he was wrong for wanting what he wants. No one is wrong for wanting what they want. 
I am saying that the blame is not 100% on her, and deep down he knows I’m right. 

Whats the difference between him imposing these sexual expectations on her and her imposing these rules about alcohol and masterbating? There is no difference. Except he followed her rules while she didn’t follow his. My point is they need to hash out what they each truly believe, and stop trying to control the other person by their own personal beliefs. They need to come to a shared agreement and have mutual respect for one another, not try to control each other and expect the other one to read their minds.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

And for the record @BluesPower I am Christian: I am born again. And I went to church with people who are super strict and some who are not. My personal beliefs are my own. And my ex in laws were super super strict. And they tried to impose their beliefs on how we should behave. And I nipped that in the bud. I told them that I respect their opinion, and when I am In their house I will do things they want because I respect them. And when they are in my house, I want them to do things the way we want because they respect us. It was a constant battle. 
My ex in laws did not drink alcohol either. Absolutely no cursing, no shopping or working in Sunday’s etc. and they were the type of people who had this weird etiquette thing that was super sexist and antiquated and I was super against doing. But when I was in their house, I respectfully acted like the perfect person and I did these things that I was against. Because I respect them. And when they were at our place, it was different. 

It’s give and take and being respectful of each other’s differences.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> I didn’t say he was wrong for wanting what he wants. No one is wrong for wanting what they want.
> I am saying that the blame is not 100% on her, and deep down he knows I’m right.
> 
> Whats the difference between him imposing these sexual expectations on her and her imposing these rules about alcohol and masterbating? There is no difference. Except he followed her rules while she didn’t follow his. My point is they need to hash out what they each truly believe, and stop trying to control the other person by their own personal beliefs. They need to come to a shared agreement and have mutual respect for one another, not try to control each other and expect the other one to read their minds.


Well we just disagree. 

I think that there are basic sex things that should be ok for a couple. I am just saying that her demands and they are demands are out of line. Out of the main stream. For her to condemn him for thing that are really standard seems out of line to me. 

If he was asking things that were outlandish then maybe you might have a case in my mind but not like it is. 

I just disagree with this line of thinking. If she was anywhere near the mainstream then maybe they could come up with some type of shared agreements, but she is in la la land about what some definition of normal is so there is no area to agree. 

And we are just talking about the sex stuff, not even the general abuse that has been going on. 

I don't know, I guess we see it different...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> And for the record @BluesPower I am Christian: I am born again. And I went to church with people who are super strict and some who are not. My personal beliefs are my own. And my ex in laws were super super strict. And they tried to impose their beliefs on how we should behave. And I nipped that in the bud. I told them that I respect their opinion, and when I am In their house I will do things they want because I respect them. And when they are in my house, I want them to do things the way we want because they respect us. It was a constant battle.
> My ex in laws did not drink alcohol either. Absolutely no cursing, no shopping or working in Sunday’s etc. and they were the type of people who had this weird etiquette thing that was super sexist and antiquated and I was super against doing. But when I was in their house, I respectfully acted like the perfect person and I did these things that I was against. Because I respect them. And when they were at our place, it was different.
> 
> It’s give and take and being respectful of each other’s differences.


I get you, but here is the deal. 

There are things you can debate about, in regard to Christianity, and I get the arguments and the general discussion. 

Then there are things that if they are present, the are actually not part of the bible, and if you read the bible as the word of God, then they have no business in the church or a marriage. Some of the things that are discussed in this thread are outside the bible, and they have no basis. 

I am not saying that you are not Christian or outside of the mainstream or not. I don't know. (By the way I did not say anything about anyone except FIL and some of the stuff the OP discussed.) 

And if they had rules that I thought were wrong, your former in-laws, I would not have been involved with them. I probably would not have married your Ex Husband or his parents in general. 

But surely you can see that some of the stuff that OP was talking about was pretty far outside the mainstream of the Christian Church and he is correct to not be involved in it. 

Where are we disagreeing, Or where are we at odds. I am not sure that I am understanding that...


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> I get you, but here is the deal.
> 
> There are things you can debate about, in regard to Christianity, and I get the arguments and the general discussion.
> 
> ...


So the issue I see is not whether something is in the Bible or not. It’s that you have people in a family who have different beliefs and lifestyles and imposing them on each other. We all have to learn how to get along with people we don’t necessarily agree with.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> But surely you can see that some of the stuff that OP was talking about was pretty far outside the mainstream of the Christian Church and he is correct to not be involved in it.


I think the point is that, like anything else, each spouses' growing and changing beliefs over time can be a source of friction in a marriage if there's isn't respect. The best that can be said is that it's his right to decide whether or not he wants to be involved in it. 

Whether or not he's correct not to be involved in it is a different matter. She may not agree, but she does need to respect his choice. Likewise, he has to respect her wishes if she continues to belong to it, just as she has to respect his choice. 

Respect would seem to go one step further, implying that he has to support her choice. That does complicate deciding how to raise the kids. Who's religion and values are they going to be raised in/by? Tricky waters to navigate.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Good luck. I hope that it works out.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> So the issue I see is not whether something is in the Bible or not. It’s that you have people in a family who have different beliefs and lifestyles and imposing them on each other. We all have to learn how to get along with people we don’t necessarily agree with.


So yes then we disagree. For me, there are things that well meaning people can disagree about.

Then there are things that have no place in my life based on certain beliefs, some religious some not. If they get too far outside my, in my own mind, one standard deviance so to speak, then I do not tolerate those things, and do not allow them in my life.

There are things, that in this thread, masturbation for example and someone telling me I can or cannot, that are not allowed. No one can tell me I cannot or can, it is not open for consideration that I would not be the one to make that decision.

Anyone, wife, FIL, whoever, that tried to tell me either way on that would be met with harsh retaliation.

I don't know is that makes sense or not. There are things that I can give or take on, and there are things that I will not give or take on.

That is where I am coming from on this...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

pplwatching said:


> I think the point is that, like anything else, each spouses' growing and changing beliefs over time can be a source of friction in a marriage if there's isn't respect. The best that can be said is that it's his right to decide whether or not he wants to be involved in it.
> 
> Whether or not he's correct not to be involved in it is a different matter. She may not agree, but she does need to respect his choice. Likewise, he has to respect her wishes if she continues to belong to it, just as she has to respect his choice.
> 
> Respect would seem to go one step further, implying that he has to support her choice. That does complicate deciding how to raise the kids. Who's religion and values are they going to be raised in/by? Tricky waters to navigate.


Write all you want, I disagree with every single thing you say... Not that you care I am sure, but just so you know...


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> So yes then we disagree. For me, there are things that well meaning people can disagree about.
> 
> Then there are things that have no place in my life based on certain beliefs, some religious some not. If they get too far outside my, in my own mind, one standard deviance so to speak, then I do not tolerate those things, and do not allow them in my life.
> 
> ...


I get that. I am very similar to you actually. I have very black and white thinking about certain things and what I think is ok and not. Other things I don’t care. 

If I was married and my newly husband tried to control my masterbating habits I would shut that down right away. Especially if he was one to refuse sex with me. I would 100% cause a fight and not negotiate on it. That is what the OP should have done. 

I would not jump to divorce. But I wouldn’t budge and be controlled if I think they are out of line. I do believe in understanding their point of view and compromising on things though. My compromise would be... I won’t masterbate unless you refuse sex with me. To me that’s fair.


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## BigbadBootyDaddy (Jun 18, 2018)

OP
You got nothing to worry about if you stay the course. I’ve dealt with women like your wife (only for a short period of time). You’re wife just realized, it ain’t looking pretty out there for a single mom with her toxic personality.

Get ready for some sex. That’s the only commodity she can offer to you right now.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> Write all you want, I disagree with every single thing you say.


I respect your right to disagree and voice your opinion.


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## NickiV (Apr 8, 2020)

A lot of men have no idea what a women is and a lot of women does not no what a man is. We are very seldom taught that. We marry the opposite sex without knowing what they are. As a women myself, I know that telling a man that he is not allowed to masturbate and that you see masturbation as cheating, is like telling a bird that it is not a bird and not allowed to fly anymore. Men needs sexual release. They didn't ask to be like that and should never be made to feel that there are something wrong with them.
Your wife needs counseling and the counselor needs to explain to your wife what a man is and how his sexuality works. Just remember, your wife has a choice and you have to respect her choice. After realising how a man's sexuality works, she needs to make a choice.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

jimbradshawucf said:


> And the tough part is... knowing what is the right move here. I really hate the idea of walking out of a 16 year marriage, with 2 kids in the equation (ages 14 and 11); but I don't think I can handle another 16 years of it. I've honestly been telling myself for quite a while "when the youngest is old enough I'm done with this marriage" - but it's just hard you know? And to add another crazy puzzle piece to the mix... my parents are part of the same religious background, and would PROBABLY agree with her as well on this if doodoo hit the fan. Maybe I'm sounding like a total whiner here - but I feel like I have two choices... put up with being treated in a way that I don't feel is right whatsoever and be completely unhappy. Or option 2 - pretty much give the middle finger to everyone I know to make what I feel would probably be the first actually selfish move in this entire scenario, which of course would get used by all of them to simply say "see he IS as selfish as she is claiming!!" and nobody, including my own family, will understand or agree with my perspective of why I'd be ending the marriage.
> 
> It's seriously one of the worst feelings and I have no idea what I should do. I only see 2 options. They both suck - really bad. I refuse to be a cheater - I won't compromise my own integrity to entertain that as an option. Even if I'm being mistreated, I don't feel that doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is ever right.


So, you are letting HER frame the "reason" why you want to leave as "SEX". She is clearly trying to manipulate you by "shaming" you in front of friends and family. This is pure manipulation to get YOU to be under her control.

YOU need to re-frame that as NO INTIMACY, which to YOU shows she doesn't really care about you -- you are just there to pay bills.

IF she EVER brings the family/friends back in again to do that (which I honestly can't believe she did that -- THAT would piss me off to no end), you can tell them ALL that sex between a husband and wife is fully condoned in the Bible, but even MORE important is that she has NO respect for you and your needs (especially by bringing others into the conversation that should only BE between a H and W). She clearly does NOT love you, certainly not as much as you love her. This has NOTHING to do with BJs and EVERYTHING to do with intimacy and respect.

The lack of respect and intimacy is what is driving you apart and driving towards divorce, not "SEX".

If your own family cannot understand THAT aspect, that is NOT on you -- and IMO they have to lump it if they don't like it. This is YOUR life to live, not your mother/father or friends.

EVERY SINGLE TIME they say its that you are selfish and just want perverted sex, you answer I just want LOVE, RESPECT, and INTIMACY and that SHE is failing miserably in her vocation as a wife. If She was NOT failing, you wouldn't feel this way. Say it EVERY time.

EDT: So, I've caught up on the thread -- I think what you did with your wife and especially your FIL was GREAT! NO MORE BS. Her father has perverted the teachings of Christ and added MULTIPLE layers of man-made BS rules, NONE of which had to do with what Jesus taught. GREAT that you beat him at his own game by talking about the vows. Keep to the plan you have... and best of luck


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> This stands out to me. I get that you are saying that she won't do things even non-sexual things like a back rub.
> 
> But the above quoted bit is different. I have a very good sex drive, at least once a day. But I have never done anything like "hey honey I know you've had a stressful day, lay back I'm going to dote on you".
> 
> ...





MJJEAN said:


> Your wife sounds like a selfish prude who is determined to stay that way. I can't think of another way to say it. Your choices are to let this be your life or make a change.
> 
> Also, for a different perspective, I absolutely love it when my husband asks for oral. It's hot. Him asking means he's aroused and wants to share pleasure with me. Even if I am the only one giving at the time, I'm sharing his pleasure with him. I love his taste, texture, and shape. I love the power of being able to turn a strong man into shuddering goo. There definitely are women out there who both enjoy the act and the asking.





Tobeknown said:


> MMJEAN are we soul sisters? 😉 You've perfectly described what I feel as well when I'm desiring my hubby. I wish he'd ask me more to be honest so I could watch him feel amazing because I'm doing that to him!
> Glad I'm not alone...


@jimbradshawucf

I'd heard here the position that no man should ever ask his wife for oral sex.

So, I asked my wife how she felt about it.

Her reply was "Of course, how else would I know you wanted a blow job".

If I were to give my wife reciprocated oral sex, I would much prefer doing it when she asked for it. The idea of doing it when *I'm* in the mood seems ridiculous. The idea is to give *her* pleasure, so it makes sense to me that it would be best given when she most wanted it.

Just pointing out that because one woman says it's a horrible thing to do, not all women agree.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> reciprocated


Should have been un reciprocated


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Thank you for your honest perspective on this. I really truly appreciate it! I have suggested counseling, and the response has been
> quote - "I'm not doing that - if you don't like what we have then get out; and you'll get to explain to everyone that you broke up a happy marriage over something as stupid and selfish as blow jobs. I am who I am and I won't sit there and have a third person tell me why I should have to do something I don't want to do."
> 
> But what's funny about the above, is about 6 years ago I had a few weak moments, said screw this - and did end up masturbating. She found out, and next thing I know I got home from work to an intervention about my sinful and perverse behavior with her parents, her best friend's family, and another couple that frankly I have no idea why they were there. Apparently it's NOT okay for HER to go to a mutually agreed upon professional counselor, with a goal of mutual respectful and marriage building; but it's completely okay with for her to be calling in people without my knowledge to blind side me and humiliate me in my own living room.
> ...


Sir, you are in one dysfunctional relationship. Quit being so agreeable and stand up for yourself. You have drawn the proverbial line in the sand. Now that you have, you must stick to it. What you are experiencing in beyond strange.

All I can say is you are living in an extremely sick relationship Both with your wife as well as with her family. Take TOTAL control. Never again should you compromise.

Your posts make me visualize not a church but a cult. I am glad you have not partaken of the kool aid. i am not an advocate of divorce as I have reconciled with my FWW. That being said, right now you do not have a marriage. She has been running the show.

i wish you luck, but a leopard doesn‘t change its spots. Be prepared to move out to your condo. At her age, change is highly unlikely.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Her father is a Pastor of a conservative Assemblies Of God church. I know that she only had 1 boyfriend before me, *and she DID sleep with him from ages 16-18*. Apparently he was a real asshole too. *I have repeatedly asked if something happened there that maybe is causing this, she has said no.* That's the tough part... when I started dating her she decided she wanted to do things the right way by her beliefs and try to start over - wait until marriage etc. I was TOTALLY cool with it... but now I'm seeing that may have been a mistake, because perhaps these issues we could have worked out sooner.
> 
> I see your point on the making secret contracts. I guess in one view I didn't feel they were "secret contracts" - she has in the past thrown it in my face in these nuclear blowups that "well why I would dote on you when you don't dote on me in other ways????" In her view point she values "extras" around the house etc. as the type of doting she values, so while not a contract, I guess in my mind I've been trying to do extra special nice stuff to go the extra mile if nothing else to take away that excuse. Perhaps that's a wrong motivation on my part.


Oh crap. You are dealing with something SO much bigger than you believe. She absolutely cannot and will not change without professional help, and it may not work. You may have been her way out, something she was looking for to escape her past. She's not dealing with guilt, she's dealing with shame. Shame is the most terrible emotion possible because shame NEVER creates positive change after the fact. Fear of shame may, maybe, in some cases, prevent inappropriate behavior. But once someone feels shameful about something in their past, they are in a very, very bad place.

You maybe be 23 years ahead of me. What you have to look forward to is really, really ugly. Picture yourself having an epiphany.... suddenly realizing that, from your wife's perspective, sex with you has essentially been rape. It doesn't matter if that's totally irrational. Consider how you would feel, as a decent guy, good dad, coming to feel that way. 

You will not solve this issue on your own. No way, no how. There is no DIY advice here that will stick. You need, at the very least, IC for her, MC for the two of you, and at some point, when the past resolves and is no longer a moving target, you're going to need IC for yourself.

For some insight, check out this paper dealing with religion, guilt, shame & sexuality. I'm betting your wife is in those pages.


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Checking back in with everyone after Easter Weekend. Truthfully I tuned out the internet and enjoyed a mostly offline weekend with my boys. Here's an update.

First off, we had our first counseling session with a NON church attached male and female counseling team over Zoom on Friday. **** hit the fan in many ways as a result, but maybe good in the long run. I hesitate to share every detail of a counseling session, but to summarize, upon hearing ALL SORTS of thoughts and feelings from both sides - the counselors BOTH flat out told my wife she has a controlling personality and is out of line in that regard. They told ME not to EXPECT her to change this overnight, but that they 100% agreed that we need to be getting help, disconnected from the church, and in hearing both mine/her hearts out, did NOT feel I was in the wrong for my feelings, and felt she has been conditioned in her lifetime to view sex and relationships a certain way that are unhealthy. In fact in back/forth discussion between the female counselor and her, the counselor practically got my wife to admit she uses sex as a tool to ensure control in the relationship. It's amazing.

THAT SAID - I'm fine, alive, and following the counselors advice here 100% going forward. I am NOT attending that church going forward, and will no longer be controlled now that I realize what's going on. The counselors gave both of us some homework to do - so we're working on it before this week's session. Some of that included writing down answers to 20 very difficult questions about sex and relationships, designed to reveal people's inner thinking on these matters.

Now - I do want to address a few responses I've seen posted here in catching up. I want to clarify that I never once told her father he had to change how he believes. I told him that I don't agree, that I feel he's wrong, and I would no longer be living my life based on what HE is convicted of. I see @Girl_power your perspective on that and I understand where you're coming from, but I never told him HE had to change. My goal here is my own life. I don't think I will ever change a 70 year old man's perspective on a topic after a 50 year career as a Pastor in a denomination who ingrains this belief into everyone's heads.

To those saying I should've handled this to begin with - I humbly ask that you understand I was in an unusual situation. We married very young (I was only 21), and quite frankly we have learned a lot about ourselves over the last nearly 2 decades... and I won't deny while I decided a long time ago I didn't agree with their views, it's a scary thing to know your parents, her parents, everyone you know, and your own wife - will all disagree with you and pretty much reject you - if you express those views. I don't mean to sound like a coward, but it's scary. You think peer pressure is bad? Try that. I literally last week had my Father In Law tell me I am no longer welcomed in his home as a result of my views. It's not an easy road... so just asking for some grace and understanding. This is a bit more than just "butt out" in a lot of ways as a life choice.

Thanks for hearing me out everyone and I appreciate everyone's perspectives!!!


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

Buddy400 said:


> @jimbradshawucf
> 
> I'd heard here the position that no man should ever ask his wife for oral sex.
> 
> ...


Literally why I didn't see what the big deal was in asking... I guess it seems like a double standard. Everyone says communication is key - but then they tell you you're terrible for telling your partner what you want? So confusing haha.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Congratulations.
Glad to hear that the fan got a workout. It needed to.
The key will be her reaction to the session. Is she buying in or resisting? That will be the barometer.
Since you have been kicked out of FIL's house, she needs to explore the family dynamics.
Is she for you or against you? How did she react on your exclusion from family functions?
Will she be exploring an alternative church with you and the kids?
These questions will tell you if there is anything to work with.
Expect it to take some time. This is more than marriage counseling. This is deprogramming.
Hang in. You have your head on straight. You'll be fine.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

jimbradshawucf said:


> To those saying I should've handled this to begin with - I humbly ask that you understand I was in an unusual situation. We married very young (I was only 21), and quite frankly we have learned a lot about ourselves over the last nearly 2 decades... and I won't deny while I decided a long time ago I didn't agree with their views, it's a scary thing to know your parents, her parents, everyone you know, and your own wife - will all disagree with you and pretty much reject you - if you express those views. I don't mean to sound like a coward, but it's scary. You think peer pressure is bad? Try that. I literally last week had my Father In Law tell me I am no longer welcomed in his home as a result of my views. It's not an easy road... so just asking for some grace and understanding. This is a bit more than just "butt out" in a lot of ways as a life choice.
> 
> Thanks for hearing me out everyone and I appreciate everyone's perspectives!!!


You know what, i would not even talk to the prick again as long as i lived. I mean not ever. 

And you know what, you are JUST NOW starting to act like a grown man. 

Do not ever change that, not for anyone. And absolutely not for you wife. There is a possibility, a small one, that your wife may be able to change, but only if you continue to be strong, and get stronger. 

As long as she know that you are prepared to "Biblically" divorce her is she does not change and become something better than she is. 

I hope she can. But please do not even let yourself act the way you have before, because you deserve better. 

And of course you can ask for oral sex or whatever. Hell usually just say, open up. 

You are doing way way better. Keep it up...


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Checking back in with everyone after Easter Weekend. Truthfully I tuned out the internet and enjoyed a mostly offline weekend with my boys. Here's an update.
> -snip-
> * I literally last week had my Father In Law tell me I am no longer welcomed in his home as a result of my views*.
> -snip-
> Thanks for hearing me out everyone and I appreciate everyone's perspectives!!!


It is absurd that anyone thinks this is a convincing argument. It will never move a person to belief. It only makes sense in the context of preventing a danger from entering the home, which is far fetched at best. 

So where does this leave you standing? You are moving towards healing and understanding. He is blocking the path back to the root of the trouble. As long as your wife tolerates the counseling, as long as she isn't more afraid of alienating her parent than of facing her disfunction, as long as that holds there is hope. But while you are no longer welcome, all she needs to do to go home is stop listening to the counselor. Then hope is lost. And worst for her, because she goes back to the thinking that caused this unhappiness.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Checking back in with everyone after Easter Weekend. Truthfully I tuned out the internet and enjoyed a mostly offline weekend with my boys. Here's an update.
> 
> First off, we had our first counseling session with a NON church attached male and female counseling team over Zoom on Friday. **** hit the fan in many ways as a result, but maybe good in the long run. I hesitate to share every detail of a counseling session, but to summarize, upon hearing ALL SORTS of thoughts and feelings from both sides - the counselors BOTH flat out told my wife she has a controlling personality and is out of line in that regard. They told ME not to EXPECT her to change this overnight, but that they 100% agreed that we need to be getting help, disconnected from the church, and in hearing both mine/her hearts out, did NOT feel I was in the wrong for my feelings, and felt she has been conditioned in her lifetime to view sex and relationships a certain way that are unhealthy. In fact in back/forth discussion between the female counselor and her, the counselor practically got my wife to admit she uses sex as a tool to ensure control in the relationship. It's amazing.


Can you tell us more how your wife reacted to what counselor said about her controlling personality? and how does she feel about disconnecting from the church?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm sure it was difficult to hear - very uncomfortable. She was already hurt and defensive before they went - being portrayed as the villain in all this, which I don't particularly buy into.

If her dad behaves in such a black and white fashion, then it's not hard to see why she became controlling. Growing up with oppressive parents is super hard.



WandaJ said:


> Can you tell us more how your wife reacted to what counselor said about her controlling personality?


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## jimbradshawucf (Apr 6, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> Can you tell us more how your wife reacted to what counselor said about her controlling personality? and how does she feel about disconnecting from the church?


She fought it tooth and nail... thus stuff hitting the fan. However I will say the counselors were masterful. They had seen these games before, knew where she was going with her arguments, and she talked herself into a corner that they basically led her into, until she had this “oh crap I see what you mean” moment that she had to admit they were right. She doesn’t like it, she is mad, but she did acknowledge they were right. It was an emotional, many tears meeting. Basically they pinpointed that she had inherited/learned her fathers skills as a manipulator.

@Mr. Nail FIL is taking this stance he says to prevent my sin from entering his home. I feel he’s just trying to guilt me into backing down, which won’t happen.


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

I commend you for trying....I truly do.

That said I don't see this ending well at all. Your FIL is obviously very controlling and thus where your wife learned how to do it.

He's now barred you from his house not because of your views but because your views aren't his.

So in my opinion this is going to get to the point where your wife has to choose you or her parents and everyone else she knows. 

It won't be you pushing your wife into a corner and having to choose but rather this controlling FIL.

Can people change?
In some areas of their....sometimes.

There's no way in hell your FIL is changing, and your wife will now have to consider being ostracized from everyone she knows to potentially go with you and your differing views?

Could she choose you? Yes.

The question is Will she turn her back on everything she's ever known to go over to the Devil's way of life (because that's how you're being portrayed) and how she'll be portrayed if she leaves her parents, church and friends for you?

The odds are 90% (or higher) that she won't. 

This father of hers and his teachings aren't cult like they are in fact a cult.

What's stuck in the middle of this, which you or nobody else on this thread has mentioned, are your kids. 

When mom and dad part ways what happens to your kids?

There is NO way in hell I would want my kids around this FIL and his evil controlling ways.

Again I commend you for trying but man oh man this is going to get messy. Better a fallback plan in place to protect your kids.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

Jim, it's time you took control of your own life. This has been going on for years and you have never gotten through to her. And to hell with the Assemblies of God and their crackpot theology. In Christian theology marriage was never intended to be a prison in which someone controls another. If she doesn't like what you have to say, do not try to mollify her in some way. File for D right now, and tell the minister-dad that if he doesn't like it, he can sit on it. DO NOT back down. Start your 180 now.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> Jim, it's time you took control of your own life. This has been going on for years and you have never gotten through to her. And to hell with the Assemblies of God and their crackpot theology. In Christian theology marriage was never intended to be a prison in which someone controls another. If she doesn't like what you have to say, do not try to mollify her in some way. File for D right now, and tell the minister-dad that if he doesn't like it, he can sit on it. DO NOT back down. Start your 180 now.


I35, that is what he is doing if you read back a few pages. Once he woke up, if he stays strong, he has made the right moves. 

And look, while I am not a huge fan of AOG, mainly because of issues like this frankly, not all of the churches are like this. And while they may be overly legalistic, many, many of them are truly good people and true children of God. 

Actually, the stuff that OP talked about in this thread, happens in a lot of churches that have the sociopath pastors that OP's FIL is...


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

jimbradshawucf said:


> She fought it tooth and nail... thus stuff hitting the fan. However I will say the counselors were masterful. They had seen these games before, knew where she was going with her arguments, and she talked herself into a corner that they basically led her into, until she had this “oh crap I see what you mean” moment that she had to admit they were right. She doesn’t like it, she is mad, but she did acknowledge they were right. It was an emotional, many tears meeting. Basically they pinpointed that she had inherited/learned her fathers skills as a manipulator.
> 
> @Mr. Nail FIL is taking this stance he says to prevent my sin from entering his home. I feel he’s just trying to guilt me into backing down, which won’t happen.


In short, your W has been stripped of her power and bargaining chips. This will be very hard to change in your W. Your marriage could end on this note but, it may be for the better.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Yeswecan said:


> In short, your W has been stripped of her power and bargaining chips. This will be very hard to change in your W. Your marriage could end on this note but, it may be for the better.


Make no mistake, if OP's wife cannot change, and change radically, then it would absolutely be better that the marriage end. 

Let her find some other chump to make a living for her....


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## Tobeknown (Mar 24, 2020)

jimbradshawucf said:


> it's a scary thing to know your parents, her parents, everyone you know, and your own wife - will all disagree with you and pretty much reject you - if you express those views. I don't mean to sound like a coward, but it's scary. You think peer pressure is bad? Try that. I literally last week had my Father In Law tell me I am no longer welcomed in his home as a result of my views. It's not an easy road.


I lived this type of life with my own family, born and raised AOG. I am 47 and I am literally still deprogramming from things I've learned and the guilt and fear that I came from. I feel very angry that I lived in that world and had it so ingrained in me. 

So I can fully relate to how hard this was and is. 

And when you take a step back, as a sound minded and rational human being, the reasons your FIL has banned you from his house are ludicrous. You drank a beer. You had a therapeutic massage (from a licensed MT man no less), and you masturbated when sex was withheld as a form of control (as the counselors have uncovered from your wife). You dared to defy the all holy powerful pastor by not submitting to his instruction... How dare you! You must be in league with Beelzebub! 😳
Ok perhaps I'm being facetious but you can see the total insanity here based on the circumstances.

You are breaking free from delusional thinking and into freedom where you can know God and his love without the bondage of fear because if I know that's what so many of us raised like this want. And hopefully your wife will join you. And hopefully your kids will feel free as well. I can't even imagine how hard it must be to know you'll be rejected by many people you've known for most of your life. Yet.... You're stronger than you realized! That church needed a whistle blower.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Just in general, it amazes me how many Christian Churches (Catholic included here - ( am Catholic) have so many MAN-MADE rules around how people need to act.

Jesus basically said TWO THINGS on how to act, and it pretty much ensures a good holy life:
1) Love GOD above all else
2) Love your neighbors as yourself

If you do that, you would never violate the 10 commandments. You WOULD be a good person. It doesn't meant that you would never hurt anyone as people can misinterpret things, but the point is that YOU would not be doing things maliciously against another.

Imagine what this marriage COULD be if she put her husband ahead of herself instead of trying to control him.
LOVING him instead of trying to manipulate. 

I don't know about AOG to be honest, but those types of rules have NOTHING to do with God/Jesus.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Thank you for your honest perspective on this. I really truly appreciate it! I have suggested counseling, and the response has been
> quote - "I'm not doing that - if you don't like what we have then get out; and you'll get to explain to everyone that you broke up a happy marriage over something as stupid and selfish as blow jobs. I am who I am and I won't sit there and have a third person tell me why I should have to do something I don't want to do."
> 
> But what's funny about the above, is about 6 years ago I had a few weak moments, said screw this - and did end up masturbating. She found out, and next thing I know I got home from work to an intervention about my sinful and perverse behavior with her parents, her best friend's family, and another couple that frankly I have no idea why they were there. Apparently it's NOT okay for HER to go to a mutually agreed upon professional counselor, with a goal of mutual respectful and marriage building; but it's completely okay with for her to be calling in people without my knowledge to blind side me and humiliate me in my own living room.
> ...


She has taken your personal autonomy
Your body, HER choice.

Yet in the regard of her.
It’s her body, HER choice. 

You could try the Bible verses of it wrong for either spouse to deny the other for long.

What she did with the intervention is a cult tactic.

I would look a little deeper.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Checking back in with everyone after Easter Weekend. Truthfully I tuned out the internet and enjoyed a mostly offline weekend with my boys. Here's an update.
> 
> First off, we had our first counseling session with a NON church attached male and female counseling team over Zoom on Friday. **** hit the fan in many ways as a result, but maybe good in the long run. I hesitate to share every detail of a counseling session, but to summarize, upon hearing ALL SORTS of thoughts and feelings from both sides - the counselors BOTH flat out told my wife she has a controlling personality and is out of line in that regard. They told ME not to EXPECT her to change this overnight, but that they 100% agreed that we need to be getting help, disconnected from the church, and in hearing both mine/her hearts out, did NOT feel I was in the wrong for my feelings, and felt she has been conditioned in her lifetime to view sex and relationships a certain way that are unhealthy. In fact in back/forth discussion between the female counselor and her, the counselor practically got my wife to admit she uses sex as a tool to ensure control in the relationship. It's amazing.
> 
> ...


This is all fantastic. Just please find that balance between staying positive and staying realistic.

Also - are you children no longer attending that church? I hope they aren't.

As to your FIL... well... things have a way of working themselves out in the end. I had a feeling he would flat out reject you as a consequence. And now you have the easy gift of his absence from your life. This is a good thing.

Hang in there man.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jimbradshawucf said:


> She fought it tooth and nail... thus stuff hitting the fan. However I will say the counselors were masterful. They had seen these games before, knew where she was going with her arguments, and she talked herself into a corner that they basically led her into, until she had this “oh crap I see what you mean” moment that she had to admit they were right. She doesn’t like it, she is mad, but she did acknowledge they were right. It was an emotional, many tears meeting. Basically they pinpointed that she had inherited/learned her fathers skills as a manipulator.
> 
> @Mr. Nail FIL is taking this stance he says to prevent my sin from entering his home. I feel he’s just trying to guilt me into backing down, which won’t happen.


Bah, I was barred from my fundamentalist Muslim FIL's house for a while, too. He gave up when he realized I wouldn't. It was a test of wills. If he hadn't given in, he wouldn't have ever seen us again.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

PS the pendulum is about to swing again, man.

It swung your way on the call. Which means she is naturally going to try to reassert control. Look out for extreme manipulation tactics, because they're coming.

Her FIL, too.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Tobeknown said:


> I lived this type of life with my own family, born and raised AOG. I am 47 and I am literally still deprogramming from things I've learned and the guilt and fear that I came from. I feel very angry that I lived in that world and had it so ingrained in me.
> 
> So I can fully relate to how hard this was and is.
> 
> ...


If **** hits the fan hard with the church or with the father in law... going public with the kinds of stuff you're being forced to do with cult tactics might be an interesting 'nuke the site from orbit' maneuver should you need it.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

^^^^^^this^^^^^^^
Especially pay attention to the cult tactics.

You may still be in for a hard road.

It takes time and any who get out have to be willing to learn, and have to realize something isn’t right. I have been down that road with another in a non- religious cultic environment.

I no longer call myself a Christian, but I know the Bible

A few to start.
Ephesians 5.
1 peter 3:1
2 Samuel 6:16-23
1 Timothy 5:23
Deuteronomy 14:26
Song of Songs

When one knows the Bible for what it actually says, instead of what someone says it means, it is freeing.

If you choose to maintain your religious beliefs do as a man is supposed to and start studying together.
Ephesians 5; what was Christ’s responsibility to the church? So is a mans to his wife.
May be too in depth but will say it anyway: if one has studied ancient customs applied to New Testament it reveals a man teaching wife of another was a type of spiritual adultery.

I digress.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I don't have time to read the whole thread and understand some counseling is going on. But if she does revert back to prior behavior, I suggest asking her to reconcile her beliefs with her behavior.

Scripture says that spouses owe each other sexual satisfaction. I don't recall the exact wording but it basically says that you need to provide enough sex to each other so that your partner is not tempted to sin. It also says that abstentions from sex should be by mutual consent.

So, if she decides that masturbation is a sin, and you're doing it because sex is so lacking, then she is jointly responsible for what she considers to be sinful behavior. Simply ask her how she can act so righteously when the Scripture she holds dear says it is as much her fault as it is yours.

The essential problem here is that she runs the show and does what she wants, how she wants. Scripture in general promotes love and generosity as an overall concept, and especially in marriage. Your wife had been doing exactly the opposite of generous and loving.

There's no way she can resolve the mismatch between her stated belief system and her behavior unless she acknowledges either (1) she is willing to compromise her beliefs to not have sex with you, or (2) she believes she matters more than you (which also is unbiblical). Once you get that admission - once the elephant in the room has been acknowledged - you can move forward with that truth of her motivations being out there.


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## housewifeinheels (Apr 15, 2020)

jimbradshawucf said:


> I apologize in advance for the long read, but I feel it'll help with context. My wife and I were both raised in a fairly religious (Christian) upbringing here in the USA. We were both from an early age hammered into our heads that sex before marriage is wrong, etc. We fell in love and married fairly young, I was 21, she was 20. The context here matters - because unlike many couples, we did not experience the "getting to know if we are compatible sexually" phase of a relationship. Those that say "you should have figured this out before getting married" should be aware of that context.
> 
> With the above said, I am now 38 years old. We have 2 kids, I have a successful career as a VP of IT, she's NEVER had to work full time although she does have a work from home position of her own. Life is pretty good in most ways. We enjoy being around each other, and in general in MOST ways life is good... except in the bedroom. I'm very frustrated about some things, and every single time I bring them up - it's a massive fight. I don't know what to do. Here's the details:
> 
> ...


This post made me very unhappy to read because it is everything wrong with us women these days and the way we treat our husbands. The Bible says "women, respect your husbands and husbands love your wives" - if religion is her issue for not wanting to do certain things then she has already contradicted herself and it sounds more like a stubborn, control kind of thing.

It is not uncommon for women to use sex (or the deprivation of sex) in an attempt to control their husband and this is WRONG. If you were getting adequate respect as husband and head of household you would have no fear of communicating your feelings to your wife and she would patiently and respectfully hear you out and the situations could be discussed and addressed.

On another note, I do have a few questions and thoughts. For background purposes I am a housewife with 7 children, I love and believe in God, and I absolutely love dressing up and catting around my husband all day - we talk dirty in "code" throughout the days to boost and prepare each other for a night in the sack which I am perfectly happy if it is 10 mins or an hour - the closest a woman can get to her husband is when he is inside her and I love my husband as close as possible. Code for example would be Me: "hunny, I sure enjoyed the elephant show on YT last night" - easy words around breakfast which will stir flashbacks of previous night's sex and only he and I would know what we are talking about even while surrounded by children and the duties of parenthood.

With that said - I have numerous friends who are happy to skip days, weeks and months without sex with their husbands and it all seems to be linked to self confidence and doubt. If a woman does not feel sexy she will have less interest in sex - severely dwelling on certain religious ideas will cause women to feel guilty about sex and sexiness - but this is the wrong thinking. The Bible also tells is the marriage bed is undefiled and that women should submit to their husbands - and if a woman has a caring, responsible, loving husband submission should be know issue. 

1 Corinthians 7:2-5. "But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfil his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

You have to really work on trying to find out what her reservations with sex are and what can you both do to make her feel comfortable and happy making love. Consider these. How often do you compliment your wife? Does she get dress up while simply around the house? What would be her response if you walked behind her and grabbed a breast? Have you asked her what she enjoys most in bed just to open the conversation more about her wants than yours? This is a softer opening to that discussion and can help you to get in some words on your own wants and needs.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

I liked your post , but some people are just bad news.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Truthfully I did try the "screw this I'm just going to do my thing" approach you suggest. The result of that was in 2014 when she found out I had masturbated, she called her very religious pastor father/mother, her very religious best friend's family, and I got home from work to an intervention about "my behavior"


I have some questions.

How in the hell does someone just randomly *'find out'* one has masturbated unless you took a damned video of yourself doing it while holding a newspaper from that day so the date was showing? How does someone actually come across this information once the deed is done? Or, were you stupid enough to use your underwear to clean up with and she found them standing up in the hamper? Maybe you wrote about it in your diary? I honestly don't get how people 'find out' something like this after it's all said and done. It's not a damned crime scene with clues left behind!

Please enlighten me how Nancy Drew solved the mystery of your retched choice to masturbate. 

And I thought Miss Wonderful said she was going to "leave you" if you DARED to masturbate? What happened to that threat? I guess she's a heathen liar for saying that and not following through with it. Actually, she's just an opportunist because she doesn't want to lose that paycheck you bring home every week, so she chose to stay on Easy Street, instead. So that actually makes her a hypocrite AND an opportunist. Be sure to tell her what a LIAR she is, though.

Secondly, why the HELL are you *so* willing to live in this kind of misery? Your wife is just a miserable, unhappy, joyless blob of flesh whose SOLE purpose in life is to suck every last bit of joy from the air you breathe. Is this some kind of personal punishment you've decided you have to endure for the rest of your life? Kind of like a crown of thorns?

I don't get it. I don't.


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## cp3o (Jun 2, 2018)

DTO said:


> Scripture says that spouses owe each other sexual satisfaction. I don't recall the exact wording but it basically says that you need to provide enough sex to each other so that your partner is not tempted to sin.


If any scripture does say this it is very, very silly.

Such a statement can only be based on the false idea that all extramarital sex is due to insufficient sex with one's partner.

This is not the case.

Many who cheat will admit that they did not do so because the sex at home was inadequate. And if the statement referred to the Bible why isn't providing insufficient sex a ground for divorce - AIUI the only Biblically sanctioned ground is adultery. 

There are many reasons why people cheat, including mental issues that are incurable.

I know we like to simplify complex situations but automatically assuming that the BS is at fault is sick.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

cp3o said:


> If any scripture does say this it is very, very silly.
> 
> Such a statement can only be based on the false idea that all extramarital sex is due to insufficient sex with one's partner.
> 
> ...


I don't think that this thread has to do with cheating. It has to do with a brain washed, religiously repressed, basically crazy, controlling wife that OP is giving a chance to straighten up. 

It is about lack or sex, controlling about sex, and craziness...

We don't think she is cheating.


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## cp3o (Jun 2, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> I don't think that this thread has to do with cheating. It has to do with a brain washed, religiously repressed, basically crazy, controlling wife that OP is giving a chance to straighten up.
> 
> It is about lack or sex, controlling about sex, and craziness...
> 
> We don't think she is cheating.


My response was to "you need to provide enough sex to each other so that your partner is not tempted to sin".

To sin - not to sin in a particular way - general, unspecified sin. From which the rational extension is - If your spouse "sins" it is your fault for supplying inadequate sex. Which I assume would include a variety of things including extramarital sex.

Are you suggesting that cheating is not a sin? Because if you think it is this paragraph provides all sinners (including all who betray their spouse) with a simple and unanswerable excuse doesn't it?

I'm not suggesting that the intent was blame the sinner's spouse - but that is how it could, and probably would be used by those who sin - in any way whatsoever.

Hence - IF any scripture says this it is, IMO, silly..


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

BluesPower said:


> We don't think she is cheating.


I think she very easily could have, could be, or is at high risk of cheating in her future.

She had sex before him. She had sex before marriage with him. She liked it. After marriage, all that changed.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if she has all kinds of hangups about sex while married, and lets lose while not married. Or outside of marriage. That happened many times in my experience.

As my wife likes to say... if she's not having sex with you, she's having sex with someone.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Marduk said:


> I wouldn't be surprised at all if she has all kinds of hangups about sex while married, and lets lose while not married. Or outside of marriage. That happened many times in my experience.


I have avery good friend that was in a sexless marriage. He eventually found out his wife had had multiple affairs. He asked her for specific details, and when she divulged everything, he asked her why she deprived him of sex, yet was willing to give it away so easily to others. She told him I can't do those things with you because I "respect" you. Of course that was BS, its something he laughs about now, but he was devastated back then.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> I have avery good friend that was in a sexless marriage. He eventually found out his wife had had multiple affairs. He asked her for specific details, and when she divulged everything, he asked her why she deprived him of sex, yet was willing to give it away so easily to others. *She told him I can't do those things with you because I "respect" you.* Of course that was BS, its something he laughs about now, but he was devastated back then.


It's actually a truth of backward rationalization to do with respect of woman speaking.
Too long a discussion and off topic though.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Literally why I didn't see what the big deal was in asking... I guess it seems like a double standard. Everyone says communication is key - but then they tell you you're terrible for telling your partner what you want? So confusing haha.


Speaking as a woman. I agree with Elle Girl. I have never had a guy ask for a BJ. While I have given them. We have whole threads here about them. The point being. They are one sided. You know she doesn't like to give them yet you continue to harp on this. I would think your situation would be much improved by having sex more often and having a more willing and open sexual partner. To get hung up on the stand alone BJ seems just as controlling as some of her behaviors. You've went from being too passive and her being controlling to being the controlling one. You've literally told her if she doesn't behave the way you want you'll divorce her. The biggest threat of all. There was no actually discussion and compromise just let's swing the pendulum the entire other way. 

I get why you are frustrated. And I do think it was time for you to stand up and not be pushed around and to stop thinking you can make covert contracts and get made when they didn't work.

Be aware. You aren't getting very many response here. You have lots of replies but mostly from the same people. Mostly from men. One recommending you break her. This is not the stuff of relationships. If your resentment has built this far that you think this is the way to go maybe you should just divorce her. It would be kinder.

Marriage is about a relationship. She was controlling before and you are now. Neither time is there a true relationship happening. And while it may not be mainstream to consider beer or masturbation bad it also is true for many religious people. You've known this for a while. You are asking your wife to change her views. 

You can have a beer without bringing a 6 pack into the house. You are wrong your boys won't find out. But this is the new you right? And everyone has to love it or leave. Did these wonderful counselors ask you anything about compromise? Did they ask either of you about your actual beliefs or are they counseling from their own belief system? 

I don't have the answers. I wish you the best. You don't seem to actually love your wife don't torture her just let her go.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Anastasia6 said:


> Speaking as a woman. I agree with Elle Girl. I have never had a guy ask for a BJ. While I have given them. We have whole threads here about them. The point being. They are one sided. You know she doesn't like to give them yet you continue to harp on this. I would think your situation would be much improved by having sex more often and having a more willing and open sexual partner. To get hung up on the stand alone BJ seems just as controlling as some of her behaviors. You've went from being too passive and her being controlling to being the controlling one. You've literally told her if she doesn't behave the way you want you'll divorce her. The biggest threat of all. There was no actually discussion and compromise just let's swing the pendulum the entire other way.
> 
> I get why you are frustrated. And I do think it was time for you to stand up and not be pushed around and to stop thinking you can make covert contracts and get made when they didn't work.
> 
> ...


How is he controlling her now?

He hasn't said he's ever demanded her to do anything except that they leave the church and get into therapy as a condition of the marriage continuing.

Both of which I think are very reasonable. As is having a beer in your own house if that's what you want to do. That's insane to say that's him being controlling. As is asking for things you want sexually. Not demanding, but being honest about what you want and what you like.

And for crying out loud, his body, his rules. Him masturbating is not him controlling her.

This mindset is so wild and so skewed - to suggest that him doing reasonable things that he wants to do is him controlling her - that it made me shake my head. Cult behaviour, pure and simple.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> Speaking as a woman. I agree with Elle Girl. I have never had a guy ask for a BJ. While I have given them. We have whole threads here about them. The point being. They are one sided. You know she doesn't like to give them yet you continue to harp on this. I would think your situation would be much improved by having sex more often and having a more willing and open sexual partner. To get hung up on the stand alone BJ seems just as controlling as some of her behaviors. You've went from being too passive and her being controlling to being the controlling one. You've literally told her if she doesn't behave the way you want you'll divorce her. The biggest threat of all. There was no actually discussion and compromise just let's swing the pendulum the entire other way.
> 
> I get why you are frustrated. And I do think it was time for you to stand up and not be pushed around and to stop thinking you can make covert contracts and get made when they didn't work.
> 
> ...


Did you miss the part where she expects his only relief to come from her?

Perhaps I misunderstood his posts, but he says she refuses him any intimacy, plus relief and calls family to group shame him if he takes matters into his own hands. Pun intended.

How is he being controlling?

eta: a man performing cunninglinus for his wife is no more one sided than a man asking for a blow job.

There is a reason it’s called “performing.“


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## SlyGuy (Jan 14, 2014)

Hi, I made up my mind last week I'm going to divorce my wife. I haven't posted here in years but feel I need to respond to you as a warning....like Michael J Fox in Back to the Future.

So I'm an IT manager also, grew up w/Christian no sex till marriage values and married the same type of woman. "Great Scott, we're the same person" (except for your weird masturbation part) I'm really you 10+ yrs in the future reaching back out to my young self. "It's not you, It's your kids...they're growing up with bad example of what a marriage should be nor do they know how to communicate and now have no interest in a relationship with the opposite sex !!! .." 

That's what I'm seeing now btw. Present the concern for your kids. Dont wait for her to finish despising you and be played like a record in her brain. 

We're the same guys they married: tolerant, trusting, loyal, kind and forgiving. Hell we're boyscouts. They don't want that anymore. I think they want us to be @ssholes. I tried it a couple times and actually got a reaction. It's hard because that's not who I am. (see Athol Kay's books)

I know what a hard day in IT is like dealing w/both insane vendor & user tickets, not having a say in what things you'll be responsible for integrating and supporting that are crucial to your job description and blows up.. which is your fault btw. A sincere blow job w/good attitude makes those days better. You don't get this because you don't have a good enough credit score at her bank because you paid a late bill (back in 1962 when meteor destroyed your house & put you in a coma at the hospital). You knew the rules, yet you failed to pay on time. There are better banks out there who value your business and will reward you accordingly. There are some beautiful single women out there who recognize effort and reward accordingly. My wife has given me one blow job and even mentioned she liked it ... but never had another one since. It's as rare as duck teeth. She was angry w/herself for showing that side to me. Instead I believe the frigid side is shown for 2 reasons: 

First, there's real physical libido issues associated with her thyroid condition and anxiety issues.. which could be improved if she felt I was worth the effort. Why bother if her stressful day needs are met taking a bubble bath I prepared for her. (AKA using you) Rewarding bad spousal behavior is also where I failed.

Second, there's real mental issues: I think allowing themselves to be sexual with us would portray that they give in to issues they want to hate us for. It's a forgiveness issue. I've studied it. To be valued in a marriage means to have your efforts recognized and rewarded in the way you feel rewarded. If you don't give someone a hint you like love tool gifts then dont be pissed on Christmas unwrapping ugly damn ties every year (5 love languages books helped drive that point home to me). But when you CLEARLY communicate to the other person on what makes you feel valued, needed, wanted and appreciated... and they get you ugly ties anyways...yet you also fail getting them a desired gift since they won't tell you. (aka un-chosen as the cunnilingus delivery person now because you did it wrong on your wedding night) A wife with this reasoning and unforgiving behavior will ruin your life and self esteem. They have no intention of ever giving you the chance to improve your relationship. Run away !!! There are some wonderful women out there who gladly see the mutual benefits of a healthy relationship.

If you don't find the key to unlock her brain... then quit looking because its gone. I'm losing my marriage. 50% my fault since I chose to avoid conflict (she has a yelling/screaming problem if confronted) 50% her fault for a 1-strike & you're out no-forgiveness policy for being offended over things and not telling me till years later in which she cant remember details but clearly remembers how she felt. Your 900lb clue is her desire to make the kids and her inner circle happy.. not you. I'm sad to say I predict you're wife as incapable of change and urge you to go find the woman who appreciates and respects you. Don't do what i did and wait or blame God for not answering prayers. I've learned he rewards righteous effort & sacrifice but not blatant stupidity.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

SlyGuy said:


> I think allowing themselves to be sexual with us would portray that they give in to issues they want to hate us for. It's a forgiveness issue.


Insightful.


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## fencewalker (Apr 17, 2020)

jimbradshawucf said:


> which of course would get used by all of them to simply say "see he IS as selfish as she is claiming!!" and nobody, including my own family, will understand or agree with my perspective of why I'd be ending the marriage.


I'm sure your family and hers are for the most part decent, intelligent, caring people... but they're also wackos. Unfortunately, when you're born into a world of wackos, you don't realize just how wacky it is. It seems that realization has been gradually dawning on you over the years. 

Let's be absolutely clear about a few points...
1. You're not the crazy one, they are. 
2. You're not acting unethically, they are.
3. You're not responsible for the collapse of your marriage, your wife is.
4. If relations between you and your family sour as a result of you ending an emotionally abusive marriage, you're not responsible, they are.
5. Your kids will still love you.
6. By ending your marriage, you will be entering a world of sexual satisfaction unlike anything you have ever experienced before. It's a good thing. It's an exciting thing. It doesn't mean you're perverted, it means you're normal. Enjoy your new life guilt-free and chain-free.


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## fencewalker (Apr 17, 2020)

jimbradshawucf said:


> Let me know - curious what you all think of my approach here.


Bravo! Perfect!


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## GirlFriday2265 (Apr 19, 2020)

I resonate with this post so much. But from a different perspective. 

My husband and I got married at 26 and 21 after less than a year of knowing each other because we grew up in Christian homes and sex outside of marriage was "bad." We barely knew each other but committed to a lifetime together because our hormones were raging. You don't realize what a "lifetime" really looks like when you're 21 nor do you really know what you want in a life partner. So I get that. I so get that. 

Things were rough for us from the get go. We've never had an "easy" marriage because we're so different. 

3 kids, two miscarriages, and three moves, and we ended up in marriage therapy. We've been going for 3 years with not much change. 

I understand where you're wife is coming from with the lack of sex drive. It's hard. Kids change things. Our hormones are all over the place. I'm also willing to bet she has unmet needs, but it seems like you're willing to meet them. 

What I do not get is her controlling mindset to not let you get that release on your own. I have not been able to have sex with my husband for a couple months now. Ever since we started therapy with a new therapist. Too much is coming out there and I'm just not there with sex. We need a lot of healing work. But I've told him to feel free to go and take care of that on his own as long as it's at home and not with another woman. I've said this several times. I'm not able to meet that need, so feel free to take care of that. And I get frustrated that he refuses. Says he'll wait for me to be ready. But that puts a lot of pressure on me. I try not to let it, though, because I'm not demanding he wait for me. That's his choice. 

But anyway. It really sucks your wife won't do counseling. She seems very hard headed. What do you think would happen if you sat her down one night and had a discussion about each of your needs. Talk about hers first. What does she need in your marriage that she's not getting? Does she have unmet needs in emotional connection? Does she need you to do several regular chores around the house? What does she need on a regular basis that she's not getting. Do NOT talk about your needs at this conversation. Make it ALL about her. Then if she's willing to state needs, do your best to meet her needs consistently for one month and check in with her again. Are they being met? Yes? Then state your needs. Are they not being met? What do you need to do different?

I get very frustrated when my husband goes on cleaning rampages for one weekend and expects my need for extra help to be met. It misses the mark for what my actual need is (consistent help without me reminding him).

Just don't get into the pattern of giving until you run yourself ragged and bitter. Your needs matter too. 

You sound like a great guy, and I don't think it would be unfair for you to say, "listen. Things aren't working with us. I need you to either agree to attend counseling with me or I need a separation/be able to get off on my own/etc"


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## GirlFriday2265 (Apr 19, 2020)

jimbradshawucf said:


> So first off, thank you everyone for your replies, insights, even correction on a few things! Based on your input and a lot of thought, meditation, and coming to grips with some things, I've decided that for me, there is clearly a path I need to take.
> 
> Either things will change immediately or they won't.
> If they don't - I'm out.
> ...


Holy crap. This is amazing. You can ignore my advice in my previous post because you handled this like a champ. The ball is in her court. I hope you enjoyed that massage and beer!!

Please update as this goes on.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Bud, the clan is not done yet. Daddy will be back. You'd be well advised to put them in their place permanently. No sense in dealing with this BS over and over. 

Will the wife come around? Maybe 50/50 at best. When you deliver an ultimatum be prepared to back it up. 

These types of kooks are what give the term Christian a bad wrap. Seen many mist are nit this cultish so don't be shocked when you get out from under this you find a lot or normal decent people that aren't crazy.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

jimbradshawucf said:


> FIL is taking this stance he says *to prevent my sin from entering his home*.


I never knew that was how sin worked. Like it's some kind of infectious virus. Is he worried his immune system against sin is weak?

Your wife has not yet grown up and left "daddy" behind.


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## cp3o (Jun 2, 2018)

Laurentium said:


> I never knew that was how sin worked. Like it's some kind of infectious virus. Is he worried his immune system against sin is weak?
> 
> Your wife has not yet grown up and left "daddy" behind.


IMO - He's a control freak ruthlessly using pseudo-christian rhetoric to maintain his dominance. 

And no - I don't think he's in the slightest bit worried about sin entering his house - he just wants to be unchallenged whilst he rewrites history to make himself the hero - grandiose narcissism anybody?

With the emphasis on making any and every thing a "sin" - is it that she hasn't left her "daddy" behind but her cult leader?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

cp3o said:


> If any scripture does say this it is very, very silly.
> 
> Such a statement can only be based on the false idea that all extramarital sex is due to insufficient sex with one's partner.
> 
> ...


First, the OP's spouse is coming at this from a Christian morality perspective. The Bible says what it says - spouses owe each other that satisfaction - whether or not you agree that's an appropriate standard. It's a simple concept. Sex is a basic human impulse, but to be saved for marriage. If you can't before marriage, then you need some assurance that you'll be cared for during marriage. So the rule comes in that you have to meet the need of your partner.

His spouse can't have it both ways. She cannot hold him to a certain standard and not hold herself to that same standard unless she is a hypocrite. And if that's so, then she should be called out. And she is definitely a hypocrite. She's perfectly willing to blow up the marriage over lack of sex, claiming that she shouldn't have to do what she doesn't feel like, even though Scripture clearly says something different.

Second, I'm not automatically assuming it is the betrayed spouse's fault. If I had refused my spouse (never did, BTW) and she went out and cheated, of course she bears responsibility for cheating. But then, I would need to humble myself and figure out what my part in that was. And yeah if I'm only putting out a few times a year, starfishing her, etc. then I share in the blame for not fulfilling my responsibility.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

GirlFriday2265 said:


> What I do not get is her controlling mindset to not let you get that release on your own.


Having been there and done that, there's one strong possibility. She basically wants him to yield to her lack of drive and let that part of himself die off. Him masturbating would signal that is not going to happen either from a physical or emotional standpoint. So, she knows the lack of sex will continue to be an issue and that pisses her off.

My ex-W pulled this same ****. Her spin on it (from a Biblical perspective) was that I should take the hit, subordinate my wants and needs to hers, and just stop asking. By making sex an issue I'm creating a dilemma where she has to know she's treating me badly or addressing her discomfort so that she can be a good partner; that's a fair conclusion. But she took it a step further and felt if I loved her I would voluntarily give up sex so that she would not have to choose either of those options.

I'd bet my stimulus check that's what's happening here.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

More related to @DTO's post.

I’m thinking that since wife’s ‘errant’ stance likely comes from narrow church teachings, one should study what various theologians espouse. There are many different viewpoints. One is that the Bible does not address this (even with Onan’s issue which was not in this context). There are lots of opinions.

One frequently quoted is that of Dr. James Dobson many years ago (70's?):
He said, “First, let’s consider masturbation from a medical perspective. We can say without fear of contradiction that there is no scientific evidence to indicate that this act is harmful to the body. Despite terrifying warnings given to young people historically, it does not cause blindness, weakness, mental retardation, or any other physical problem. If it did, the entire male population and about half of females would be blind, weak, simpleminded, and sick. Between 95 and 98 percent of all boys engage in this practice — and the rest have been known to lie. It is as close to being a universal behavior as is likely to occur. A lesser but still significant percentage of girls also engage in what was once called “self-gratification.”……

“As for the emotional consequences of masturbation, only four circumstances should give us cause for concern. The first is when it is associated with oppressive guilt from which the individual can’t escape. That guilt has the potential to do considerable psychological and spiritual damage. Other issues are related to Obsession, Addiction, and Marital Issues--withholding." Wife’s guilt is almost palpatible.

Richard Innes says: "For a married adult, masturbation can be wrong (sinful) if one uses it as a means of avoiding sexual intimacy with his/her marriage partner, or failing to meet his/her spouses conjugal (marital) rights." Not an issue for him, but is for her. "For a single adult, it has been suggested it may be a gift of God to help relieve one’s unmet sexual need."

So, it appears that under many of the religious treatises, wife’s been taught the perspective of an outlier’s group. It would take a wise and learned person to address this problem with OP’s spouse.

It may just be too late to go there…


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## cp3o (Jun 2, 2018)

DTO said:


> First, the OP's spouse is coming at this from a Christian morality perspective. The Bible says what it says - spouses owe each other that satisfaction - whether or not you agree that's an appropriate standard. It's a simple concept. Sex is a basic human impulse, but to be saved for marriage. If you can't before marriage, then you need some assurance that you'll be cared for during marriage. So the rule comes in that you have to meet the need of your partner..


 I suspect you're basing this on 1 Corinthians 7. Which is Pauline opinion immediately following his statement that men should not touch women, an intensely empathy-devoid but practical view of marriage intended to resolve a specific situation in a specific fledgling church. 



> His spouse can't have it both ways. She cannot hold him to a certain standard and not hold herself to that same standard unless she is a hypocrite. And if that's so, then she should be called out. And she is definitely a hypocrite. She's perfectly willing to blow up the marriage over lack of sex, claiming that she shouldn't have to do what she doesn't feel like, even though Scripture clearly says something different..


 It says _" The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife". Ibid 7: 4_ which is also silly if one thinks about it.



> Second, I'm not automatically assuming it is the betrayed spouse's fault. If I had refused my spouse (never did, BTW) and she went out and cheated, of course she bears responsibility for cheating. But then, I would need to humble myself and figure out what my part in that was. And yeah if I'm only putting out a few times a year, starfishing her, etc. then I share in the blame for not fulfilling my responsibility.


 You might share responsibility for the state of the marriage, you would not share any of the blame for her infidelity.

Religion so often unnecessarily further complicates that which is already complicated doesn't it.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

jimbradshawucf said:


> I've even tried going all out doting on her asking nothing in return.
> 
> I'm at my wit's end. I'm a good husband - I work hard, care for my family, do the right things, am I selfish and bad for expecting a satisfying sex life?


Clearly you were expecting something in return - and a lot of women just refuse to interact with men because heaven forbid, men like to be treated as people, not Objectified as Shelf Objects.


She has her marriage.
She is getting what she wants out of it - kids, husband, house, professional husband with status etc.

Why should she do anything else? She already gets what she was told was the correct things in life - just as she was told it was up to the good husband to provide for her.

Congradulations, you are a successful member of the Patriarchy. Sadly, as a man, especially a "good" husband, you aren't allowed to be recognised as a human being, let alone a person, and you certainly do not get to make any kind of demands - your problems (and your wifes problems) are all yours to bear. Congradulations again.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

There is no need to threaten this man with hell. He is already there.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

This is probably OP's wife if FIL coming on here to shame him with some nonsense that has absolutely nothing to do with the bible in any why. 

Further, ABJC, if you are an actual Christian, then you should look at the verses that talk about false teachers and what will happen to YOU in the end times. God, has a special Hell for those people (You if you did not get that)...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

AbelieverinJesusChrist said:


> I am writing to you as a christian, not as the rest of the people here telling you oral sex is right...oral sex/anal/ is sodomy its like being a homosexual/perverted, please you will burn in hell for that..many will insult me but thats the truth..missionary sex is the way as a christian seeking to go to heaven..demons make you crave what pornography is promoting
> 
> 15) The sin of anal sex: Anal sex has to do with having sex in the anus. It’s an abomination and is condemned by Scriptures such as Romans 1:26 as well as the same Scriptures which condemn the sin of transgender above. All the people who commit the sin of anal sex are possessed with the evil spirits of anal sex and are on their way to the awful, severe torture, and torment in the everlasting fire, unless they repent and forsake such an abomination now before it’s too late for them. Do so now if you have been involving yourself in anal sex in any way in the Mighty Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. 16) The sin of oral sex: This has to do with the mouth sex abomination. That is, committing sexual acts in the mouth. It has to do with the “sucking” or “licking” of one’s sexual organ which is an abomination to the Lord. ANYONE who commits this sin of oral sex is possessed with the evil spirits of oral sex and shall be cast into the lake of fire unless s/he repents and forsake it now before it is too late for him/her. It should be understood that Oral sex is the teaching of lucifer the devil as a Strategy to enslave, defile and cast into the everlasting torment in the everlasting fire all those who practice such an abomination. If you are one of them, stop reading now, fall down on your knees and begin to cry to the Lord for mercy, repent and forsake such an abomination before it’s too late for you in the Mighty Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.


Wow.

Where did this poster come from?

Quoting specific scripture to attempt to promote an opinion, and throwing out opinions stated as facts while ignoring other scripture is wrong in so many ways.

I can say imho perhaps this poster is either directly or tangentially related to OP's family?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

@AbelieverinJesusChrist , friend, you've got to write in a more readable fashion using paragraphs and formatting to prevent presenting an unreadable wall of text.

I'd guess you copied out of Word where you originated your posts then pasted here.

I could be wrong, but it would be torturous for me, at least, to write such long, long responses.

To ask a direct question, forgive me if I'm wrong, but do you personally know the OP @jimbradshawucf or a family member?


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

I'll take a WAG here.
FIL found his posting and decided to take a dump in it.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Tdbo said:


> I'll take a WAG here.
> FIL found his posting and decided to take a dump in it.


Yes I actually hope so. If it is OP's wife writing this stuff, then she is toast. Op was in no mood for this foolishness.

If it was FIL, I would love to dress him down, biblically. That man should live in shame the rest of his sad life...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

If indeed the FIL, he could learn here that @jimbradshawucf came here in an attempt to better his relationship with his W, draw closer to her, and not looking for problems but solutions. 

Drawing closer to a W often seems to Ws family as her withdrawing from them, and he/they may feel threatened and THAT is the real source of their combativeness if you will.

And they would be very wrong to try and sabotage their daughter's marriage so she wouldn't "slip away from them" in their own mind.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

You know, I actually hope the W found this site and is posting. 

There is much constructive information here if she wants to have a better M.

No one is perfect, him or her, but @jimbradshawucf appears to definitely have came here looking for ways to save and improve the marriage and was honest in that approach.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> If indeed the FIL, he could learn here that @jimbradshawucf came here in an attempt to better his relationship with his W, draw closer to her, and not looking for problems but solutions.
> 
> Drawing closer to a W often seems to Ws family as her withdrawing from them, and he/they may feel threatened and THAT is the real source of their combativeness if you will.
> 
> And they would be very wrong to try and sabotage their daughter's marriage so she wouldn't "slip away from them" in their own mind.


Actually, you severely underestimate these type of people. They thrive on making peoples lives hell. They are so sick that they actually believe they are doing right. 

They are so far removed from God, that the holy spirit does not speak to them, if you understand that... 

These people, that church, FIL, will try it influence OP's marriage until they die. They are so deceived that they have no discernment at all about life, the Bible, God, reality even. 

I have known these types of people, they are so messed up.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Actually, you severely underestimate these type of people. They thrive on making peoples lives hell. They are so sick that they actually believe they are doing right.
> 
> They are so far removed from God, that the holy spirit does not speak to them, if you understand that...
> 
> ...


You're probably right. I'm more hoping for them I guess.

But you're likely right on the money. Some people are so far gone it's tragic.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

BluesPower said:


> Yes I actually hope so. If it is OP's wife writing this stuff, then she is toast. Op was in no mood for this foolishness.
> 
> If it was FIL, I would love to dress him down, biblically. That man should live in shame the rest of his sad life...


Not to threadjack, but where did this poster we are discussing come from?
I thought a prerequisite to joining this forum was that one had to introduce themselves (at least, I had to.)
I looked and could not find one for "A Believer."
This person joined and came straight to this thread. How fortuitous.
Thinking my WAG was not far off.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> I'm more worried about factual. Factual can be proven. If you can't prove it then expect to be called out on it.



Going to show my age here.

That argument has been around a long, long time.

How Long?

I saw it pop up in veronica and archie searches when I was doing research in college.

Now you youngsters can use the google and your other wiz bang contraptions to figure out what those were!

IT was just as WTF then as it is now.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I don't think the poster is her daddy because he wouldn't want to admit he did a piss-poor job of educating his little girl.



AbelieverinJesusChrist said:


> So we need to educate the girl child to remain a virgin till marriage.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I just had to moderate this thread. Please keep religious opinions in the religious section. And do not attack other members. It's against the rules.

The threadjack was cleaned up.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

snerg said:


> Going to show my age here.
> 
> That argument has been around a long, long time.
> 
> ...


I'm at my half century mark, so I am hoping that you are not trying to clump me in with the "youngsters". That being said, which particular argument? Mine of the now deleted one?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

MattMatt said:


> I just had to moderate this thread. Please keep religious opinions in the religious section. And do not attack other members. It's against the rules.
> 
> The threadjack was cleaned up.


Who did you have to clean up after?

C'mon, you can tell us. I won't say anything


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

jimbradshawucf said:


> I apologize in advance for the long read, but I feel it'll help with context. My wife and I were both raised in a fairly religious (Christian) upbringing here in the USA. ....


Jim, I haven't read the entire thread yet.

I want to point out that you have the right to your own mind. What I mean is you have the right to feel about things the way you do. You have the right to your desires and preferences. You have the right to your beliefs. You don't need your wife's approval, nor do you need mine or anybody else's. The caveat I put on that is when it comes to criminality, but that isn't at play here.

You have the right to desire certain sex acts with your wife. It doesn't make you an evil person. She of course doesn't have to agree to do those things or to think they are fun. The thing is though you should not be subjected to being shamed by her or her family for it.

You have the right to like beer, and the right to choose to drink it responsibly. If her concern is the kids being exposed to it, then you have to work that aspect out with her. But she doesn't own your body and she doesn't get to control if you drink responsibly. She doesn't have to like that you drink alcohol, but she doesn't have the right to shame you or berate you for it.

At this point you've already set things in motion, but I wanted to bring up the underlying principles. Someone already recommended the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Glover, and I highly endorse that idea. I also strongly recommend you read "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by Smith. It is far more than the title suggests, and is well worth reading. It does give you some verbal tools, but honestly the underlying philosophies are at least as important. Read both books!


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> I'm at my half century mark, so I am hoping that you are not trying to clump me in with the "youngsters". That being said, which particular argument? Mine of the now deleted one?


My old age made me lose track of what I was posting.

I meant the deleted explanation.


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## cp3o (Jun 2, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Wow.
> 
> Where did this poster come from?
> 
> ...


It's a quote - lifted from a book by Nkemzi Theodore A. 

_Brother Nkemzi Theodore A is the pastor and worldwide coordinator of Holiness unto the Lord Revival Ambassadors Worldwide Ministry._ 

There's a link to a website which is has a US 'phone no. but no (that I could see) address, claims to represent a worldwide ministry, is largely incomplete and states that the programme for conferences in 2018 will be posted shortly. 

For someone who is a researcher about the "endtimes" the idea that time flows backwards must be somewhat challenging?

A number of qualifications are claimed - as is a marriage - though google's library of pictures about his wife all show him rather than her. And I make no further comment.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Just wow.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

I wonder what happened here......anyone have any updates??


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