# Total loss of affection



## Mfgtr (Jan 2, 2022)

Hello
I’ve been married for 22 years and my wife has completely stopped showing ANY physical attention or tenderness. 
I’ve talked to her and talked to her for years. She has physical issues that cause her body aches and occasional pains and we’ve experienced much financial stress over the recent years. But I treat her extremely well and just getting her to hold hands now puts a resentful look on her face. I’ve literally told her I’m craving the touch of a woman who appears glad to see me and that I’m on the brink of acting out and there’s zero response. 
I’ve not cheated on her and insist on being honorable through this. 
But I’m consistently sad and starting to experience more extreme emotions as my self respect is now hanging in the balance. 

I’m thinking it’s finally time to tell her I’m seeking a counselor and if she’s not interested in participating - I’m preparing for whatever comes next. 

Your thoughts 
? ? ?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Whatever comes next is:

1: Check your phone bill
2: Find someone that doesn’t hate you


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Children?


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Who knows what's happening inside her head. Perhaps she's lost respect for you and blaming you for financial problems? I don't know. 

I do believe that many women often choose guys for reasons other than raw attraction. Once the initial novelty wears off then she starts to become resentful and it's just too hard to fake.

One question that may hold a clue. How did the two of you meet and get together ? Did she pursue you or did you do the majority of the chasing?

A lot of people will have you believe she's cheating on you. That's certainly possible but not necessarily. The other aspect is that while she is seeing another guy it's directly for the reasons mentioned. 

You have to try and get to the bottom of it if you want to see what your next move is but most people. lie when this issue arises


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

Mfgtr said:


> But I treat her extremely well and just getting her to hold hands now puts a resentful look on her face.


This is not good. Why do you think she resents you? Have you discussed it?

Maybe you are treating her too well, trying to "nice" her into your arms, instead of getting down to the issues between you?

I'm not suggesting that you suddenly act like a jerk, but stop doing so much for her and letting the relationship be so one sided. She'll continue to lose respect for you if you continue down this path. 

As a woman, I love for my husband to treat me well (and he does, and I treat him well) but I certainly would never want him to become a doormat. That is so not attractive.


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## Mfgtr (Jan 2, 2022)

In Absentia said:


> Children?


No , no children.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Well you’re onto something.

You told her it’s a dealbreaker for you and she’s either going to work with you on it or not. That’s all you can do. Figure out how long you want to give her to try and then execute on your exit plan if needed.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

hamadryad said:


> many women often choose guys for reasons other than raw attraction.


Yep. Happens often. Sometimes, there's someone in her past for whom she had raw attraction, but he was irresponsible, had other GFs, or just plainly wasn't interested in her. This can add fuel to the fire.

Given time, the guy gets resentful. Resentful of all the damn sacrifices he has to make without anything in return which means anything to him. Sorry, clean clothes and a picked-up house can be had for a tenth of what a marriage costs. It's just not worth it.


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## Mfgtr (Jan 2, 2022)

hamadryad said:


> Who knows what's happening inside her head. Perhaps she's lost respect for you and blaming you for financial problems? I don't know.
> 
> I do believe that many women often choose guys for reasons other than raw attraction. Once the initial novelty wears off then she starts to become resentful and it's just too hard to fake.
> 
> ...





hamadryad said:


> Who knows what's happening inside her head. Perhaps she's lost respect for you and blaming you for financial problems? I don't know.
> 
> I do believe that many women often choose guys for reasons other than raw attraction. Once the initial novelty wears off then she starts to become resentful and it's just too hard to fake.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response. 
Yeah , I think she may resent me for some financials but I’ve been meeting my obligations for years and dialogue with me is always an option. 
I did the pursuing in the beginning and she loved it. As for her cheating ?
It would be pretty difficult as she rarely leaves the house and has restrictions on her physical abilities - but she is on her phone a lot , gets upset easily when I point it out and is tuning out further. 

She says she’s depressed. 
But it’s been this way for years and I’ve talked and talked to her. 
She apologizes , then goes right back to tuning out 100% 
and it’s just getting worse


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Mfgtr said:


> But it’s been this way for years and I’ve talked and talked to her.


The definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Your love language is physical touch. What is hers? It's not physical touch, oviously. Is it gift giving? Acts of service? Quality time? Affirmations? Don't underestimate the impact of financial hardship on a relationship. Financial hardship can impact all of those ways if we are not used to thinking outside the box.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Mfgtr said:


> Thanks for the response.
> Yeah , I think she may resent me for some financials but I’ve been meeting my obligations for years and dialogue with me is always an option.
> I did the pursuing in the beginning and she loved it. As for her cheating ?
> It would be pretty difficult as she rarely leaves the house and has restrictions on her physical abilities - but she is on her phone a lot , gets upset easily when I point it out and is tuning out further.
> ...


so what do you think would possibly change her behavior? My thoughts….nothing


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## Mfgtr (Jan 2, 2022)

Erudite said:


> Your love language is physical touch. What is hers? It's not physical touch, oviously. Is it gift giving? Acts of service? Quality time? Affirmations? Don't underestimate the impact of financial hardship on a relationship. Financial hardship can impact all of those ways if we are not used to thinking outside the box.



Thank you for responding. 
The only piece of her love language left is that once every two weeks or so , she will cook me a special dish that is specifically just for me. 
We both share all household duties - dishes , laundry etc. It’s always been part of our relationship that no one person would handle everything alone and that neither was above doing for the other. 
But she’s far more adept at food than I and she will still do that.


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## Mfgtr (Jan 2, 2022)

Evinrude58 said:


> so what do you think would possibly change her behavior? My thoughts….nothing


Are you asking 
“ what would have caused her to change from how she used to be “
Or
“ what could make her change her behavior now “
? ? ?


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Mfgtr said:


> Hello
> I’ve been married for 22 years and my wife has completely stopped showing ANY physical attention or tenderness.
> I’ve talked to her and talked to her for years. She has physical issues that cause her body aches and occasional pains and we’ve experienced much financial stress over the recent years. But I treat her extremely well and just getting her to hold hands now puts a resentful look on her face. I’ve literally told her I’m craving the touch of a woman who appears glad to see me and that I’m on the brink of acting out and there’s zero response.
> I’ve not cheated on her and insist on being honorable through this.
> ...


Ages? How many years of the 22 have you been "talking to her" about "it"? Did you have any really good years? Her resenting holding your hand indicates she actually despises you. What is the point of spending time and money on a counselor? With someone who despises you. Preparing for what comes next seems best course, and believe you know what the "next" is without anyone telling you.


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## Mfgtr (Jan 2, 2022)

Rus47 said:


> Ages? How many years of the 22 have you been "talking to her" about "it"? Did you have any really good years? Her resenting holding your hand indicates she actually despises you. What is the point of spending time and money on a counselor? With someone who despises you. Preparing for what comes next seems best course, and believe you know what the "next" is without anyone telling you.




I’m 51 and she’s 52
We did have many good years together. 
I’m looking into a counselor as my next move. 
Why do it ?
Because I gave my word - sickness & health / richer / poorer - better / worse. 
I want to do any & all to adhere to the promises we made years ago. 
I must be able to face myself and know I did all I could to save this commitment we made. 
I am also deeply & religiously adhered to this institution through real love.

Much thanks for your response. 
Im just trying to do the right thing


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Mfgtr said:


> I am also deeply & religiously adhered to this institution through real love.
> 
> Much thanks for your response.
> Im just trying to do the right thing


If there is a God that would want you adhere to the institution under the conditions you laid out and to be this miserable and unloved, then he must be a sadist....While it wouldn't be acceptable at any age, you have a lot of good years left.....Relationships end-it happens, there doesn't have to be a good guy and bad guy here.......Sometimes they were never meant to be in the first place......No one says you have to hate each other, but there is no reason why you can't seek another option to maintain sanity and live the rest of your years without this crap on your mind all the time.....Even if you remain single for the rest of your life, its a better option than this...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> Who knows what's happening inside her head. Perhaps she's lost respect for you and blaming you for financial problems? I don't know.
> 
> *I do believe that many women often choose guys for reasons other than raw attraction. Once the initial novelty wears off then she starts to become resentful and it's just too hard to fake.*
> 
> ...


Well, even if women choose for raw attraction, that can be very difficult to maintain...as well as, if you choose someone with a short attention span or with attachment issues, it won't matter how genuine the attraction starts out, they won't be able to continue feeling that way...because of THEM.

I also do NOT believe this is a typical attraction-loss problem -- WHO looks at their partner with a resentful look when they touch hands?? 

@Mfgtr, you need to set some boundaries and make her stick to them...she is not going to snap out of her hateful behavior on her own, because it feels good for her to vent it onto YOU. She has stopped caring about your feelings, and if you don't care about yourself enough to refuse to be treated this way by anyone, then she will never ever care about you again.

Also, PLEASE do not use the excuse of religious or Godly beliefs to justify why you are allowing her to mistreat you...that isn't what God intended for marriage AT ALL...and if you don't stand up for your marriage, you are allowing your wife to displease God and go against what He expects of spouses.

So don't hide behind God...He doesn't want your marriage to be like this either.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Mfgtr said:


> I must be able to face myself and know I did all I could to save this commitment we made.


That is fair. 

But notice your use of the word "We" and ask yourself if she she is reciprocating at all. Does she even want to remain together? Does she want to remain married just so you can help with the rent, utilities and household chores? 

It's fair to want to be able to tell yourself you did everything YOU could to make it work. But at some point to you have to take a hard, honest look at what SHE is doing to try to meet your needs in this partnership and whether that is actually enough for you to remain. 

It does take both people making a full-faith effort and sometimes even that is not enough. Not all marriages can or even should be saved.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Mfgtr said:


> I’m 51 and she’s 52
> We did have many good years together.
> I’m looking into a counselor as my next move.
> Why do it ?
> ...


Just remember that SHE made the same promises. And by her actions she has ripped up the contract. Sounds like you have already made good effort to no avail. But, it is your life. I think you would be doing the "right thing" to terminate the partnership ASAP.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> *So don't hide behind God.*..He doesn't want your marriage to be like this either.


This exactly. SHE isn't behaving as required in a marriage.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I mean what do you think could change her current behavior toward you……. You’ve “talked” for years with her.

she knows you’re there to be her roommate and take care of her and you’ll never leave, but has no romantic interest in you whatsoever. So you’re gonna get the roommate and since you won’t give any real consequences, you’re stuck.

You both took vows, to love, honor, and cherish one another. Are you feeling cherished? To have and to HOLD….. do you feel held?……

You can live out your life with your roommate and rightly say you kept your vows. Nobody can help you unless you know someone that makes love potions. I’m very sorry. It’s a shame that loving someone doesn’t make them love you back. I believe you’re being Used.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Accepting this behavior over and over hasn't worked, so don't do that again.

You should take a little time off for a solo trip. Some time away will likely make you realize that you don't miss her much and she will hopefully realize what her future may feel like.

I would pursue the counseling option also, setup the times and inform her, if she comes to them great, if she doesn't, you know how she really feels.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Mfgtr said:


> Why do it ?
> 
> Because I gave my word - sickness & health / richer / poorer - better / worse.


So you keep your word/commitment while she doesn't hold up her end of the deal. Got it. I'd suggest you pursue hobbies/interests. Sounds like she's done with the marriage. 

And P.S. - The usual excuses for staying in a crappy marriage are finances, for the kids, or religious reasons. Guess you'd better acclimate yourself to roommate status.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> The usual excuses for staying in a crappy marriage are finances, for the kids, or religious reasons. Guess you'd better acclimate yourself to roommate status.


bingo. I got all those three. And now I got myself some hobbies. 🤣

for anyone who don’t plain to leave their spouse for any of those reasons, coming to terms with the situation helps. You just have to admit to yourself that there is no way out, don’t “hope” for anything or any changes (without effort and changing from both sides) cause they are not happening. Know that whatever you do is doing it for the kids. Be responsible for your own happiness (and sadness, don’t let the other person make you sad).

i think I got myself to a better place emotionally once I realize all those. It still kind of suck knowing that my hope for a fulfilling marriage is not going to happen. But that doesn’t mean I can’t have a decent rest of my life.

Look, I love cars, love Ferrari, but I know I will never be able to get one, but doesn’t mean that the quality of other aspect of my life needs to suffer.


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## CrAzYdOgLaDy (Mar 22, 2021)

If she hasn't changed/improved after years of trying, and has got worse, I would start to plan an exit. Have you threatened her with divorce? Might be the wake up call she needs. Don't cheat, and if you do get tempted then leave your wife 1st. Also she could be having an emotional affair on her phone. Have you checked her phone, messages, emails, chat apps, Facebook, messenger etc. She doesn't need to go out to have an affair. She could be having phone sex with other men. Tell her you want her phone and if she refuses, she's guilty and obviously has stuff to hide.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Rus47 said:


> SHE made the same promises. And by her actions she has ripped up the contract.


Correct. It is her who has divorced you. Her decision was unilateral, you weren't even asked your opinion. She has reneged upon her marital promise. She has refused to be your marital partner. She simply wants the convenience of being supported financially and helped with the everyday chores of life.



Mfgtr said:


> Are you asking
> “ what would have caused her to change from how she used to be “
> Or
> “ what could make her change her behavior now “
> ? ? ?


Ok. I'll postulate upon both of these questions. I obviously have a different "take" on this than you do.

As to "change from".... it is my contention that she was NEVER attracted to you physically, you are a marriage of convenience. You have been USED since day one for an "appliance". You have been objectified into "A" man. An interchangeable man. She simply got tired of living the farce she had to live in order to secure and keep you for her own slave. She knows that, because of your convictions (and, I might add, your generosity and goodness as a man) and your desire to please God, that you won't leave. She simply takes all of the benefit for none of the work.

As to "change now"..... there are ways in which SHE can change her behavior, if she truly "loves" you and cares about your emotional and physical needs. As to something YOU can do, the answer is NOTHING. There is not any single, nor set, nor group of YOUR actions, which can change HER.

It shows me that your wife has none of the same convictions about pleasing God that you do. Her "God" is SELF. It is HER who is upon the throne in her life. If she were truly interested in following God (meaning THE God), she would be investigating, studying, preparing, and acting towards being the best wife she could be.



DLC said:


> It still kind of suck knowing that my hope for a fulfilling marriage is not going to happen. But that doesn’t mean I can’t have a decent rest of my life.


This is exactly right. I had to come to this acceptance myself, that I am not going to have a fulfilling marriage. I help around the house to be "fair", but mostly, I just bury myself in work. At least, work is fulfilling, and treats me fairly. It responds to logic, not to feelings. Concentrate on the "rest" of your life.

You and I are quite similar when it comes to our promise before God. That's why I echo this advice.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mfgtr said:


> Thanks for the response.
> Yeah , I think she may resent me for some financials but I’ve been meeting my obligations for years and dialogue with me is always an option.
> I did the pursuing in the beginning and she loved it. As for her cheating ?
> It would be pretty difficult as she rarely leaves the house and has restrictions on her physical abilities - but she is on her phone a lot , gets upset easily when I point it out and is tuning out further.
> ...


Has she gained a lot of weight? Have you?


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

CrAzYdOgLaDy said:


> If she hasn't changed/improved after years of trying, and has got worse, I would start to plan an exit. *Have you threatened her with divorce?* Might be the wake up call she needs. Don't cheat, and if you do get tempted then leave your wife 1st. Also she could be having an emotional affair on her phone. Have you checked her phone, messages, emails, chat apps, Facebook, messenger etc. She doesn't need to go out to have an affair. She could be having phone sex with other men. Tell her you want her phone and if she refuses, she's guilty and obviously has stuff to hide.


Personally, I have never thought threats to be very useful in any venue. Telegraphing a punch just ends up in receiving a beatdown. Telling someone you are going to hurt them just results in a pre-emptive strike. Threatening divorce either causes the wife to file first, or she finds out it is just a bluff. Just do, don't talk has always seemed the best path forward to me.

By same token, doing a bunch of amateur PI stuff looking for affair evidence is also pointless. Either hire a real PI or put shoe on the other foot, tell her what you suspect and make HER prove she isn't guilty. In this case, years have gone by so what is the point. Just plan life going forward without her.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

As a member here since 2011 I have seen many people in your situation. Let me speed up the process for you:

What do you want? More importantly, What will you put up with? You have to know this because nothing is going to change unless you make it, and some people dont want to "make it" because the results cant be controlled. To effect any change in her you will need to tell her that without change you are leaving. (with no kids why wouldnt you?) AND MEAN IT. 

Then all you do is you give a good speech, all about working together to bring about change, and then you explain that "because if things dont change, I will be leaving" After you have this conversation, time has shown that you have about a 20% chance of being married in a year (thats a guess, and probably high) but if you arent married you are at least on your way to finding that someone who appreciates you. 

If you are willing to put up with it, your call completely, but find someway to be happy and do it. But quit waiting for change, it aint happening.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mfgtr said:


> I’ve literally told her I’m craving the touch of a woman who appears glad to see me and that I’m on the brink of acting out and there’s zero response.


She is depressed and you are becoming needy and blaming her for letting you down. It is a death spiral much like two kindergarteners pinching each other on the arm and screaming at the other to stop. One of the two of you needs to stop and break the cycle. It will take a lot of energy. 

Basically you need to let go and take responsible for your own happiness in ways that are not destructive to your marriage. Find something all on your own to be positive about and then share that with her as a way to try and be uplifting for her. It will feel like pulling a piece of heavy machinery (not calling her fat, but more so a very capable of doing a lot person) out of the mud:


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Sounds to me she's checked out of the marriage and she is now depressed because she sees no future. You have no children. Sit her down and have the "talk".


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

Mfgtr said:


> Hello
> I’ve been married for 22 years and my wife has completely stopped showing ANY physical attention or tenderness.
> I’ve talked to her and talked to her for years. She has physical issues that cause her body aches and occasional pains and we’ve experienced much financial stress over the recent years. But I treat her extremely well and just getting her to hold hands now puts a resentful look on her face. I’ve literally told her I’m craving the touch of a woman who appears glad to see me and that I’m on the brink of acting out and there’s zero response.
> I’ve not cheated on her and insist on being honorable through this.
> ...



Firstly, I'm sorry you're having this struggle. You say you treat her well, I have no doubt this is true, but I wonder if your definition of being treated well is her definition? As an example, my husband of 15 years feels that because he works a job that provides well financially and gives me the autonomy to purchase things at will and not have to worry, that I should merely be satisfied with that. He does make good money, however I'm not a frivolous spender just because I could be. That makes no sense.

In his mind, I'm taken care of. I should not desire affection outside of sex. By the way, sex is affection in his mind, entering me and getting what he needs and being done is the whole act. For me however, I feel completely neglected. I too have no desire to hold his hand, we haven't even kissed in weeks and I'm fine with that. I love him, however, in the same token, he's completely KILLED my innate desire as a woman to show any of the affection I once felt. 

So to sum things up, are you loving her how YOU want to be loved, or are you in tune with her needs? Her needs may not be as they once were so you might have to go on the hunt for whatever those may have evolved into. Good luck.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> Firstly, I'm sorry you're having this struggle. You say you treat her well, I have no doubt this is true, but I wonder if your definition of being treated well is her definition? As an example, my husband of 15 years feels that because he works a job that provides well financially and gives me the autonomy to purchase things at will and not have to worry, that I should merely be satisfied with that. He does make good money, however I'm not a frivolous spender just because I could be. That makes no sense.
> 
> In his mind, I'm taken care of. I should not desire affection outside of sex. By the way, sex is affection in his mind, entering me and getting what he needs and being done is the whole act. For me however, I feel completely neglected. I too have no desire to hold his hand, we haven't even kissed in weeks and I'm fine with that. I love him, however, in the same token, he's completely KILLED my innate desire as a woman to show any of the affection I once felt.
> 
> So to sum things up, are you loving her how YOU want to be loved, or are you in tune with her needs? Her needs may not be as they once were so you might have to go on the hunt for whatever those may have evolved into. Good luck.


So instead of telling your husband what you need, he needs to figure that out somehow. He needs to love you how YOU want to be loved and needs to be in tune with YOUR needs. You "love" him ( just a four letter word, easily said, difficult to live) but he has KILLED your desire for him and you don't want to show any affection for him. You feel neglected and don't want to hold his hand or kiss him. He thinks everything is fine? Maybe rather dense of him, but would it have been just too much effort to open your mouth and TELL him over and over how you feel until he gets it? 

You say "in his mind" you are well taken care of. What have you said to him to let him know that is far from the facts?

In a word, you are ripe for another man to pick up on your unhappiness and give you all the words and signals to arouse your desire. Meanwhile the man you made vows to thinks by working his rear off and giving you money to spend he is keeping the fires burning. Really sad, but see these same stories over and over on these pages. Man (or woman) believes all is good in the marriage, the partner isn't getting THEIR needs met. So acts in their own SELF(ish) interests.

No doubt the OP is in the same boat as your husband, which is why he should just dissolve the "partnership". It ain't coming back, and he will likely never know what he did wrong. Shame on him I suppose.


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

Rus47 said:


> So instead of telling your husband what you need, he needs to figure that out somehow. He needs to love you how YOU want to be loved and needs to be in tune with YOUR needs. You "love" him ( just a four letter word, easily said, difficult to live) but he has KILLED your desire for him and you don't want to show any affection for him. You feel neglected and don't want to hold his hand or kiss him. He thinks everything is fine? Maybe rather dense of him, but would it have been just too much effort to open your mouth and TELL him over and over how you feel until he gets it?
> 
> You say "in his mind" you are well taken care of. What have you said to him to let him know that is far from the facts?
> 
> ...



I have attempted conversations regarding this. I get no more than two or three sentences in and I am immediately shut down. Last week my attempt sent him into a rage of name calling and just irrational verbal assaulting. Of course I don't expect anyone to be a mind reader, but I'm not married to a man that I can be open with if it's stating anything beyond the sun shining out of his rear. Anything else, is just negative. I can't even hint that his touch is painful at times, without being screamed at for it. So I just don't say anything anymore. I go to work, I take care of our child, the home and just remain quiet. If he wants sex, he gets sex. Cut and dry. 

Besides leaving I don't know another way, and I won't be leaving. That's everyone's answer to everything but it isn't as simple for some.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Mfgtr said:


> Hello
> ...* wife has completely stopped showing ANY physical attention or tenderness.
> 
> I’ve talked to her and talked to her for years.* She has physical issues that cause her *body aches and occasional pains* and we’ve experienced much f*inancial stress* over the recent years. But I treat her extremely well and just getting her to hold hands now puts a resentful look on her face.
> ...


I have several thoughts. I was in a sex starved marriage. I got fed up, somewhat like you. What I did in addition to trying to talk to my wife was to read a number of really good self help books.

The first book I would recommend is Chapman's the 5 languages of love. It is often found in the religious book section, even if it is not very religious. It helped me understand that my wife and I had been saying we loved each other, even when we were drifting apart. You see, I was telling her I loved her in my love language not hers and she was doing the same to me.

Let me explain, my love languages are touch and words of affirmation. Hers are acts of service and quality time. When I wanted to express my love for her I would reach over and hug her or I would rub her back. Sometimes I would praise her for her accomplishments. None of those things made her feel loved or cherished. She told me how I was always pawing at her body to get in her to have sex or that I was always buttering her up to get in her pants.

On the other hand she grew up with a mother that always had a hot home cooked meal ready for her husband when he got home. For my wife cooking a hot home cooked meal for me as an act of service was a way she expressed her love to me. I was trying to advance my career and would sometime loose track of time before I cam home. When I arrived late and the meal was "ruined," she would be very angry with me. It was as if she had said to me I love you and I had totally ignored her. She felt I didn't love her if I were not home and we didn't have quality time at the dinner table.

The next book I would recommend is Sue Johnson's book Hold Me Tight. It will explain how people (actually all mamals) need to be touched to thrive and be happy. It will help you understand why you need touch and intimacy.

The final books I would recommend are by David Schnarch. They are the Crucible and the book Intimacy and Desire. They will explain how marriage is hard and required work and compromise. That compromises that worked when you were dating need to change when you get married, when you have children, when your children leave the nest, etc. The interactions a husband and wife have are constantly changing as those two people change and grow. Often one will drag or pull the other into emotional growth they don't want to experience. To have real intimacy one must be willing to become very vulnerable and hurt by one's partner. That takes a lot of courage.

In the reconciliation of my sex starved marriage, we used a marriage counselor who was also a sex therapist. That helped focus my wife on the consequences of her actions in avoiding sex with me. The ST eventually got my wife to see that the logical result would be divorce at some point and that my wife needed to choose what she wanted and live with and take responsibility for her actions. Another thing that the ST did was to have us visualize and talk about what we envisioned our marriage would look like in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years. Visualization is a very powerful way to change one's behavior.



The next two books I would recommend are Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy and MW Davis the Sex Starved Marriage. They share in common that you need to lern how to do 180's and "Get a Life." A 180 is based on the principal that if what you are doing doesn't work, you should try something much different and see if that works. Think of it as marital trial and error. Getting a Life is code words for changing yourself in both your eyes and the eyes of your wife so you can become a more confident, independent and attractive man. Being a Nice Guy is also code words for being codependent to your wife and actually to most women authority figures. The opposite of being a NG is not being jerk, but to become an integrated man who is confident, independent and successful in things of his choosing. One of the hallmarks of being a Nice Guy is doing covert contracts. This is where in your might you do something without telling your spouse and expect her to react to the contract in a way that doesn't happen. Typically, a NG will decide to do more chores around the house in hopes that his will will reciprocate by having sex with him. The NG initiates the deal without telling her, he does his part of the covert contract and she just says thank you, it is about time you started to do more chores. Then he gets mad at her because she hasn't fulfilled "her part" of the covert contract that is only in his mind.

May I suggest that while you feel you have talked to your wife many many times, I would wager you have not really communicated with her. Having the same argument over and over again, or making the same demand for change is not a way to negotiate a new equilibrium in a relationship. In a Gottman weekend seminar on the art and science of marriage, my wife and I learned that if I want to change my wife's position on a grid lock issue, I need to understand and be able to explain her position better that she can. That can only be done with very careful and empathetic listening.

Let me give you an example. Let's say I want my wife to lovingly want my wife to hold my penis when we cuddle to go to sleep. I need to know why she doesn't want to do that. If it is because she feels it is dirty, then maybe I can suggest that I shower before I go to bed. If it is that she is afraid that I will get aroused and then expect to have sex with her. Maybe it is that it would arouse her to the point that she would find it difficult to go to sleep. The same could be said for a hug or a kiss. The point being that in order to really discuss your need to intimacy or touch, you really need to listen to her and find out what it is that she is concerned about. I would wager it is more than just physical aches and pains, although that can indeed be part of it. 

Another thing is that you can not force your wife to do anything she doesn't want to do. You can't really change her, she needs to want to change herself. To the extent that you have told her that you are "on the brink of acting out..." you have kind of threatened her. Many people when threatened, just dig in their heels deeper. You might be better off not to threaten her, but to make yourself a promise, maybe even a New Year's resolution. That resolution could be to do things that make you happy and feel better. May I suggest you start an exercise program (say a couch to 5 K with some weight training) and to help relax go to a legitimate massage/therapy firm. Yes, keep your ethical vows of marriage to your wife, but pamper yourself and improve yourself. Be less co-dependent. Don't expect your wife to be the sole source of your happiness.

It worked for me. Good luck to you.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

TJW said:


> Correct. It is her who has divorced you. Her decision was unilateral, you weren't even asked your opinion. She has reneged upon her marital promise. She has refused to be your marital partner. She simply wants the convenience of being supported financially and helped with the everyday chores of life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree, except I feel that since she’s reneged on the contract, he is not bound to it anymore.
I suppose he might ask her to release him from his vow, at least. I don’t think she would—- he’s too good of a tool. Worth a try though


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> *I have attempted conversations regarding this. I get no more than two or three sentences in and I am immediately shut down.* Last week my attempt sent him into a rage of name calling and just irrational verbal assaulting. Of course I don't expect anyone to be a mind reader, but I'm not married to a man that I can be open with if it's stating anything beyond the sun shining out of his rear. Anything else, is just negative. I can't even hint that his touch is painful at times, without being screamed at for it. So I just don't say anything anymore. I go to work, I take care of our child, the home and just remain quiet. If he wants sex, he gets sex. Cut and dry.
> 
> Besides leaving I don't know another way, and I won't be leaving. That's everyone's answer to everything but it isn't as simple for some.


One of the concepts that my wife an I learned in a Gottman weekend retreat was that there is this thing called "flooding." This is when you say something to your spouse that triggers a "fight or flight" adrenaline fueled response that causes their brain to shut down. It is a very natural biological response. When you are being chased by a lion, your brain only focuses of fight or flight, not being able to carry on a conversation. 

What we were taught by the Gottmans, is to recognize when I or my partner is in an emotional flooding situation and then call a time out. Basically, we are to ask and acknowledge if we are emotionally flooded, and then agree to continue the discussion in a day or few days at a time when we are no longer fueled with adrenaline. We are also to do some introspection on why we felt so threatened or over reacted.

Trying to communicate or "reason" with an emotionally flooded person is just going to go nowhere positive. You might want to relive that "fight" you had with your husband but try to put it in a different context to see if that might explain his strong response.

Another concept my wife and I learned the hard way was that my primary and secondary love languages are touch and words of affirmation. I try to tell my wife how much I love her by hugging her or rubbing her back. If she use to interpret this as my pawing at her to have sex with her, and then yelled at me. From my perspective it is as if I have just told her how much I love her (my touching her) and she slaps me in the face and tells me she doesn't love me (opposite of loving words of praise is words of criticism).

What are your husbands primary and secondary love languages? Have you trained yourself to understand them and how he expresses his love for you? Have you worked with him to train him to understand your love languages, such that he knows how to make you feel loved and cherished in your love languages.

You have every right to set personal boundaries in your relationship with your husband. However, you might want to do some introspection to see what messages he is sending you and you are sending him. The messages you are sending him may have far more emotional meaning to him than you intend.

Good luck.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

OP,

Lots of good things mentioned so far in this thread.

You've said you've talked to her about this a lot and it changes for a bit and then goes back to the way it was. Lather, rinse, repeat.

It's time for you to DO things differently as all the things you've done to this point in time have landed both of you in the boat you're currently in.

You can't keep doing the same things and expect different results.

A partnership, a marriage takes two. You can't fix this alone. You aren't meant to anyway, that's now how a marriage is supposed to work.

Partners are supposed to be on the same team, working together, pulling on the rope together.

It's supposed to be both of you against whatever issue life throws at you, against whatever problem.

It's not supposed to be her vs. you.

I don't care that this issue or problem revolves around sex as it could be anything. Either both of you will work together against this (and any other) issue to resolve, or the two of you won't.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> I don't care that this issue or problem revolves around sex *as it could be anything.* Either both of you will work together against this (and any other) issue to resolve, or the two of you won't.


Sex and attraction is much different than anything else....I get it, that inadequacies in other areas can lead to loss of attraction/sex, but those other things usually have ways to work around it, because both parties truly desire each other more than just people in their lives that share a house and bills......Someone isn't pulling their weight around the house, you can hire domestic help. someone is too cheap, they can start to spend some more, ..Someone is an alcoholic, they can quit drinking, etc...etc...

And with sex, you can rarely "work together' on it... While there are other aspects in a relationship that you work on, "working on" sex is a fools game...You hear people say(a lot even in this thread)...."Tell her if she doesn't work on it you are leaving!"....Along with a lot of other stuff...It's well intentioned, but at best, all you will get out of it is duty sex...At that point, you may as well just get one of those younger mail order brides, because the dynamic will be pretty much the same...the mail order brides may work harder at it, because the stakes are higher if they don't "comply"....

Hate to be the wet blanket, but what the OP has can't be fixed, IME/O. and no amount of work will ever make it what it_ should be_....I guess if it becomes some half assed effort, and the OP is good with that and it allows him to feel good about honoring his vows that he made,, then great, live your life, but it won't be anything that resembles what should be in a functioning marriage/relationship..


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Young at Heart said:


> I have several thoughts. I was in a sex starved marriage. I got fed up, somewhat like you. What I did in addition to trying to talk to my wife was to read a number of really good self help books.
> 
> The first book I would recommend is Chapman's the 5 languages of love. It is often found in the religious book section, even if it is not very religious. It helped me understand that my wife and I had been saying we loved each other, even when we were drifting apart. You see, I was telling her I loved her in my love language not hers and she was doing the same to me.
> 
> ...


You may have mentioned it elsewhere, but how did you get your wife to go to counseling and to see a sex therapist? Seems like at least she recignized there was a problem and wanted to fix it by doing so?


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> You may have mentioned it elsewhere, but how did you get your wife to go to counseling and to see a sex therapist? Seems like at least she recignized there was a problem and wanted to fix it by doing so?


I started my work (reading, exercise, introspection, affirmations) about 6 months prior to my wife and I going to a great Sex therapist. It was only after that she had realized I had changed greatly. She had gone to a naturopathic doctor specializing in women's medicine and hormone issues. I asked my wife, since my wife refused to have sex with me to ask her doctor for a recommendation of 3 sex therapists she would recommend. I then came up with my own list and shared it with my wife. Luckily for me, the one I liked the best was on her list.

Sex Therapists are marriage counselors with extra training in helping couples with various kinds of sexual problems. Because of all the relationship books, I read, I was interested in a marriage counselor who had training in Sue Johnson's emotionally focused therapy, or Gottman's therapy. I researched the CV's and statements of each of several of the board certified sex therapists to find one that I thought would do the best for my situation.

The advice, I had gotten from others was that it takes about a month of marriage counseling for each year of serious problems in a marriage. In the interview process, I asked about how many therapy sessions we should have before we have a meeting at which we discuss it there is sufficient progress to continue.

I don't exactly remember how many months of sex therapy/marriage counseling we had but I think it was ball park about 4 to 6 months of weekly sessions, and then later every two weeks. At the beginning they were double the normal length of sessions.

It took about 2 to 3 months of sessions before my wife was really on board. At that point she became committed to doing the homework and saving our marriage. 

The moment of truth was one session where the ST asked my wife what my wife thought would happen if we never had sex again. My wife avoided answering the question and tried to change the subject, but the ST kept gently bringing her back to the question of what my wife thought would happen. Eventually, my wife said that we would probably divorce. The ST then discussed that with my wife and told her that in her experience from seeing lots of couples that is what usually happens. 

The ST then asked me if I had ever thought of divorce. I said that yes I had. In fact I had looked up the divorce laws in our state and the typical time line between filing for divorce and when the divorce is granted. I then said that before I had started the counseling sessions, I had promised myself that I would be in a loving sexual relationship by a birthday in about a year and a half. I said that I wanted to save our marriage of about 38 years, but if my wife was not capable of providing me with a loving sexual relationship, I would divorce her and find someone else.

Months after the ST sessions were over, my wife asked me very seriously, if I would have really divorced her over something as unimportant as sex. I told her that sex to me was not unimportant and that I would have divorced her had she not agree to a loving sexual relationship.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I find it so strange that people would rather be a martyr “because of vows” than to recognize and act upon the fact that they are no longer in a true and functioning marriage.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> my wife asked me very seriously, if I would have really divorced her over something as unimportant as sex.


I am not one who can come up with a poignant reply on the spot. But, with time to think , I would have wanted to reply "would you really have divorced me over something as unimportant as being a lazy-assed deadbeat who provided you no financial support at all ? "


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> I find it so strange that people would rather be a martyr “because of vows” than to recognize and act upon the fact that they are no longer in a true and functioning marriage.


I don't think many look at is as being a martyr as much as not wanting to give up on something they might have a decent amount of time, energy, love, money, thought (the list can go on) into. I think many want to hope and see if they can make things better. 

Its kind of like if you have a bad week or two at work, you typically don't quit your job.

So I understand what you are saying, I would just add from my own experience, being single after a divroce can be great for your sex life (I had sex with a bunch of women between my two marriages) but some parts of it kind of sucked (going places alone, eating alone, not always having someone to do things with on the weekends, etc) And I was not single by choice as I was married for almost 20 years when my ex bailed out on me.

Finding one night stands was surprisingly easy as a 40 something single guy but finding someone to spend the day doing things together outside of the bedroom was not. Like for example going to a baseball or football game or to the movies. Going alone sucks especially as you really aren't going to meet a single woman there to hang out with and chat. And all my other friends were still married so no one really wants to be the single guy going out with a married couple.

So I would say its a combination of wanting to fix what you already have and also the fear of the unknown as the grass is indeed not always greener. At least in my experience.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> I have attempted conversations regarding this. I get no more than two or three sentences in and I am immediately shut down. Last week my attempt sent him into a rage of name calling and just irrational verbal assaulting. Of course I don't expect anyone to be a mind reader, but I'm not married to a man that I can be open with if it's stating anything beyond the sun shining out of his rear. Anything else, is just negative. I can't even hint that his touch is painful at times, without being screamed at for it. So I just don't say anything anymore. I go to work, I take care of our child, the home and just remain quiet. If he wants sex, he gets sex. Cut and dry.
> 
> Besides leaving I don't know another way, and I won't be leaving. That's everyone's answer to everything but it isn't as simple for some.


And you said you love this man?


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## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> Months after the ST sessions were over, my wife asked me very seriously, if I would have really divorced her over something as unimportant as sex. I told her that sex to me was not unimportant and that I would have divorced her had she not agree to a loving sexual relationship.


So after months of therapy, she still didn't understand that the sex was important? My hat's off to you for replying the way you did, I mean that sincerely. How did you manage to deal with her statement and continue on not feeling therapy had been pointless?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

hamadryad said:


> Sex and attraction is much different than anything else....I get it, that inadequacies in other areas can lead to loss of attraction/sex, but those other things usually have ways to work around it, because both parties truly desire each other more than just people in their lives that share a house and bills......Someone isn't pulling their weight around the house, you can hire domestic help. someone is too cheap, they can start to spend some more, ..Someone is an alcoholic, they can quit drinking, etc...etc...
> 
> And with sex, you can rarely "work together' on it... While there are other aspects in a relationship that you work on, "working on" sex is a fools game...You hear people say(a lot even in this thread)...."Tell her if she doesn't work on it you are leaving!"....Along with a lot of other stuff...It's well intentioned, but at best, all you will get out of it is duty sex...At that point, you may as well just get one of those younger mail order brides, because the dynamic will be pretty much the same...the mail order brides may work harder at it, because the stakes are higher if they don't "comply"....
> 
> Hate to be the wet blanket, but what the OP has can't be fixed, IME/O. and no amount of work will ever make it what it_ should be_....I guess if it becomes some half assed effort, and the OP is good with that and it allows him to feel good about honoring his vows that he made,, then great, live your life, but it won't be anything that resembles what should be in a functioning marriage/relationship..


Yes, my wife decided to give me duty sex twice a month and then closed the tap when the kids were grown up and she didn't have to keep the family together. She also said we were separating "just for the sex". As I said many times before, in most cases, it's impossible to turn things around. There are obviously exceptions. People who claim to have turn their sex life around are usually dealing with minor issues.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I don't think many look at is as being a martyr as much as not wanting to give up on something they might have a decent amount of time, energy, love, money, thought (the list can go on) into. I think many want to hope and see if they can make things better.
> 
> Its kind of like if you have a bad week or two at work, you typically don't quit your job.
> 
> ...


“I’ve talked to her and talked to her for years”

How much “hope and see” does one invest?

My opinion is its clear she dislikes him enough that he should have moved on already. I admit I’m probably not as patient or empathetic as most people but I get chit done in life, marriage, work, and parenting quickly. To me it seems to be the reason I have made it this far without issues.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Quad73 said:


> So after months of therapy, she still didn't understand that the sex was important? My hat's off to you for replying the way you did, I mean that sincerely. How did you manage to deal with her statement and continue on not feeling therapy had been pointless?


I think the therapy process only starts in the therapist's office. I suspect most of the breakthroughs in couples counseling occurs outside of the office. I can't speak for @Young at Heart , but I bet that conversation between him and his wife was what finally made it click with her.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Mfgtr said:


> I’m 51 and she’s 52
> We did have many good years together.
> I’m looking into a counselor as my next move.
> Why do it ?
> ...


it’s not “the right thing” to set yourself on fire to keep others warm.

It’s not the “the right thing” (or biblically required thing) to remain dutifully committed to a one-sided marriage.

It’s not “the right thing” to be a weak doormat who tolerates a passionless marriage with a wife who doesn’t respect or desire you.


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## atourist (Dec 31, 2021)

It's sad to see plenty of people on saying you should give up on your wife and your marriage, despite being together for 22 years. Fortunately, it's clear you think it's still worth trying, and I agree.

My first thought, given your wife's age, is that the menopause may be the key, because it can make sex a huge turn-off, to the point where - even if the flesh is willing - the brain isn't. I would be very surprised if it wasn't at least a factor, and probably either a major one or THE problem.

You are probably thinking that the menopause doesn't explain all those years of her not talking about sex, but I have had much the same problem with my wife, and I suspect it is far more common than you think. She never discusses sex and would certainly never be the one to bring it up; she has never confessed a single fantasy; she is totally non-vocal during sex (even at the point of orgasm); and is completely unable to 'talk dirty'. In fact, she objects to me saying anything during sex. She cannot even admit, verbally, that she likes any particular sexual act, either before, during or after - even though she is otherwise pretty uninhibited and open-minded in bed. Indeed, our sex life is pretty good, and we have been happily married for more than 30 years.

I suspect the vast majority of women are just unable to communicate sex in ways that men generally want, and it's just one of many ways that they are wired differently. So the older I get, the more of a miracle it seems that men and women manage to connect at all, sexually. But somehow they do.

There isn't room here to go into all the ways you could improve your sex life (I could write a book about our efforts), except to say some people here have already offered good, positive ideas, and I think it is probably mostly about resetting your own expectations but still aiming high. But I do think the menopause is most likely to be your problem at the moment.

It led to my wife completely giving up on penetration because it had become painful, and she was slowly turning off to the idea of any other kind of sex, too. I think she was starting to see sex as something of a lost cause, but secretly felt quite relieved because having a physical relationship was something she could do without while struggling to come to terms with all the other pressures of 'the change'.

There was no way she was ever going to look for her own solutions or bring it up in conversation, so I did the research for her, and found that although the menopause is complex and I couldn't hope to understand how she felt, most of the problem could be traced back to something really simple: the increasing soreness felt from penetration. All we needed was some suitable lube. Once again: she wasn't going to buy it herself, so I did. Suffice to say she is in the mood again!

So check to see if the menopause is the problem, but always be sympathetic and understanding, don't pressurise her, and remember: the harder you have to try, the more the pleasure you get when you succeed.

So keep trying.


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## atourist (Dec 31, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> It’s not “the right thing” to be a weak doormat who tolerates a passionless marriage with a wife who doesn’t respect or desire you.


You must have been reading a different post to me. I see absolutely no evidence that he is "a weak doormat" or that she "doesn't respect" him. They are just a once-happy couple with problems that need addressing. Getting aggressive and throwing around insults is never the answer to anything.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I don't think many look at is as being a martyr as much as not wanting to give up on something they might have a decent amount of time, energy, love, money, thought (the list can go on) into. I think many want to hope and see if they can make things better.
> 
> Its kind of like if you have a bad week or two at work, you typically don't quit your job.
> 
> ...


There are ways to find companionship if that's what you want...maybe you didn't like the effort it took for that.

But what I read you saying is that companionship is just as important to you as sex is...so then realize that you are choosing that, and be happy with your choice. You aren't powerless - NO ONE IS - you are making your choices based on what matters most to you, like we all do. 

You have exactly the life that you are willing to create for yourself.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

atourist said:


> suspect the vast majority of women are just unable to communicate sex in ways that men generally want, and it's just one of many ways that they are wired differently. So the older I get, the more of a miracle it seems that men and women manage to connect at all, sexually. But somehow they do.


How much of this is upbringing and socialization implanting ideas about sexuality at an early age? And confirmed from society and school in adolescence? 

i personally wouldn’t put it down to any wiring. Read personal’s story about his wife’s upbringing as an example.

Thankfully my wife was born and raised in a culture where sex wasn't considered some kind of taboo subject.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

atourist said:


> You must have been reading a different post to me. *I see absolutely no evidence that he is "a weak doormat" or that she "doesn't respect" him. *They are just a once-happy couple with problems that need addressing. Getting aggressive and throwing around insults is never the answer to anything.


Then you were definitely reading a different post than I was....what kind of feelings do you think cause a long-term partner to make a resentful face when their partner touches or holds their hand??


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

atourist said:


> You must have been reading a different post to me. I see absolutely no evidence that he is "a weak doormat" or that she "doesn't respect" him. They are just a once-happy couple with problems that need addressing. Getting aggressive and throwing around insults is never the answer to anything.


Um, the post I read indicated that his wife shows him no physical affection and is visibly resentful if he even tries to hold her hand. 
I’m assuming that sex is also off the table.
And this has been going on for years and she refuses to go to counseling to try and improve the situation. 

So yeah, that’s a woman who has no respect for him, seemingly open contempt for him, is not being his wife. That’s pretty clear. And that’s not a marriage.

and yes, he has been acting like a weak doormat because this has been going on for years, and he has been tolerating it, apparently doing little more than “talking to her” about how it makes him feel.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

atourist said:


> You must have been reading a different post to me. I see absolutely no evidence that he is "a weak doormat" or that she "doesn't respect" him. They are just a once-happy couple with problems that need addressing. Getting aggressive and throwing around insults is never the answer to anything.


No evidence? Did you read his posts? All OP's words:

stopped showing ANY physical attention or tenderness.
I’ve talked to her and talked to her for years.
just getting her to hold hands now puts a resentful look on her face.
I’ve literally told her I’m craving the touch of a woman who appears glad to see me and that I’m on the brink of acting out and there’s zero response.
my self respect is now hanging in the balance.
She apologizes , then goes right back to tuning out 100% and it’s just getting worse

That said, I see no problem with @Mfgtr wanting to be able to say he tried everything he can to save his marriage. It seems the idea of counseling is about all that is left to do. I would recommend setting a time limit. @Mfgtr I think you should be straight up with your wife. Tell her you are at the end of your rope and you are considering divorce even though that isn't what you want. Let her know you are just not getting the emotional support you need from a marriage. Line up a counselor appointment and give her the date. Set another date, maybe 6 months in the future, where you will decide if enough progress has been made to continue or start the separation process. She must understand the gravity of the situation.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> Months after the ST sessions were over, my wife asked me very seriously, if I would have really divorced her over something as unimportant as sex.


That’s when I would have filed.

Not only is that showing you that sex is not important to her, But the fact she even had to ask you that shows she doesn’t believe it is or that it should be important to you either. 

I’m glad things improved for you and that you are in a better place. 

But I think questioning for how long is a valid question. 

She was playing defense and making concessions to keep from getting divorced. But with her asking you that after the facts that not only is her heart not in it, but she doesn’t recognize that your heart can actually be in it either. 

That’s a tough dilemma and one similar to the situation I’m in. 

It’s one thing to throw in the towel if someone is telling you to your face they no longer desire you or want a love life with you and say that they won’t try. 

But it’s hard to cut the cord when someone is making concessions and is trying to meet at least minimum requirements.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TJW said:


> I am not one who can come up with a poignant reply on the spot. But, with time to think , I would have wanted to reply "would you really have divorced me over something as unimportant as being a lazy-assed deadbeat who provided you no financial support at all ? "



That would be a fair question and a fair point.


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## Mfgtr (Jan 2, 2022)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Has she gained a lot of weight? Have you?


She has gained much weight. 
i actually work in an industry where Im photographed and filmed and must look great so - NO - hell no I’ve not gained. In fact , I’m kicking ass ESPECIALLY against men my age.
She’s not felt great about her body for A WHILE


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## Mfgtr (Jan 2, 2022)

TJW said:


> Correct. It is her who has divorced you. Her decision was unilateral, you weren't even asked your opinion. She has reneged upon her marital promise. She has refused to be your marital partner. She simply wants the convenience of being supported financially and helped with the everyday chores of life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No
She and I had a great sex life for years before various events changed her. Recent events I’ve described in our 22 year union are just that - “recent”
As for being used since day one ?
Again no. She’s pulled her financial & career weight from day one and has just hit a major snag with the pandemic.
I appreciate your response and thank you for taking the time to write.


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## Mfgtr (Jan 2, 2022)

Hoosier said:


> As a member here since 2011 I have seen many people in your situation. Let me speed up the process for you:
> 
> What do you want? More importantly, What will you put up with? You have to know this because nothing is going to change unless you make it, and some people dont want to "make it" because the results cant be controlled. To effect any change in her you will need to tell her that without change you are leaving. (with no kids why wouldnt you?) AND MEAN IT.
> 
> ...


Best response yet
THANK YOU


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## Mfgtr (Jan 2, 2022)

badsanta said:


> She is depressed and you are becoming needy and blaming her for letting you down. It is a death spiral much like two kindergarteners pinching each other on the arm and screaming at the other to stop. One of the two of you needs to stop and break the cycle. It will take a lot of energy.
> 
> Basically you need to let go and take responsible for your own happiness in ways that are not destructive to your marriage. Find something all on your own to be positive about and then share that with her as a way to try and be uplifting for her. It will feel like pulling a piece of heavy machinery (not calling her fat, but more so a very capable of doing a lot person) out of the mud:


Thanks
You’re about 90% correct but I HAVE found something all my own and am in fact very recognized in my field. It’s had a bit of a reversed affect on her at times. Plus I’m around many available & desirable women ,

doesn’t matter that my wife knows I’m not looking to cheat
Thanks for taking the time to respond


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## Mfgtr (Jan 2, 2022)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> Firstly, I'm sorry you're having this struggle. You say you treat her well, I have no doubt this is true, but I wonder if your definition of being treated well is her definition? As an example, my husband of 15 years feels that because he works a job that provides well financially and gives me the autonomy to purchase things at will and not have to worry, that I should merely be satisfied with that. He does make good money, however I'm not a frivolous spender just because I could be. That makes no sense.
> 
> In his mind, I'm taken care of. I should not desire affection outside of sex. By the way, sex is affection in his mind, entering me and getting what he needs and being done is the whole act. For me however, I feel completely neglected. I too have no desire to hold his hand, we haven't even kissed in weeks and I'm fine with that. I love him, however, in the same token, he's completely KILLED my innate desire as a woman to show any of the affection I once felt.
> 
> So to sum things up, are you loving her how YOU want to be loved, or are you in tune with her needs? Her needs may not be as they once were so you might have to go on the hunt for whatever those may have evolved into. Good luck.


Hi
EXCELLENT response. Zeroing I’m on her new needs ( and yes her needs have clearly changed ) will be key I feel.
I’m very sorry about your situation. 
You seem very capable of expressing yourself succinctly. I think you may be on a similar road to mine in terms of having a need and expressing it. 
Good luck with all and take whatever risks are necessary to achieve your happiness


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## wanting more (Oct 10, 2018)

Can I offer my own nightmare? I stopped asking my wife for sex about 24 years ago. The answer was ALWAYS NO. Yes, we still do have sex, but it is on HER schedule, which is few and far between - usually every 11-12 days. My issue is that I lost my job 19 years ago, and as a result, she had to return to the workforce... She has resented me ever sense and lets me know this fact every chance she gets. I now have a career that has been longer than ANY OTHER job I have ever held, but it appears it is not enough. I am apparently unworthy of affection because of this and it is hard to press forward. My wife wants nothing to do with me and I am reminded of that almost every week of my life. The rejection is far too much for me to bear - much less the lack of physical touch - which is my Love Language. In my opinion, she speaks ZERO Love Language to me, for she is always annoyed and somehow, wants more from me... Just as a reference; I perform 75% of the shopping (groceries, errands, etc), 80% of the housework, 90% of the laundry, the only time the bathrooms get cleaned is when I do it, I perform 100% of the finances and paying the bills, I am wondering when it might be possible for me to accomplish anything additional, and yet, I am told it is not enough.... Yes, I realize that she is walking all over me, but am I missing anything else? Any advice other than RUN AWAY?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

wanting more said:


> Can I offer my own nightmare? I stopped asking my wife for sex about 24 years ago. The answer was ALWAYS NO. Yes, we still do have sex, but it is on HER schedule, which is few and far between - usually every 11-12 days. My issue is that I lost my job 19 years ago, and as a result, she had to return to the workforce... She has resented me ever sense and lets me know this fact every chance she gets. I now have a career that has been longer than ANY OTHER job I have ever held, but it appears it is not enough. I am apparently unworthy of affection because of this and it is hard to press forward. My wife wants nothing to do with me and I am reminded of that almost every week of my life. The rejection is far too much for me to bear - much less the lack of physical touch - which is my Love Language. In my opinion, she speaks ZERO Love Language to me, for she is always annoyed and somehow, wants more from me... Just as a reference; I perform 75% of the shopping (groceries, errands, etc), 80% of the housework, 90% of the laundry, the only time the bathrooms get cleaned is when I do it, I perform 100% of the finances and paying the bills, I am wondering when it might be possible for me to accomplish anything additional, and yet, I am told it is not enough.... Yes, I realize that she is walking all over me, but am I missing anything else? Any advice other than RUN AWAY?


No. 

Run away, and fast.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> I started my work (reading, exercise, introspection, affirmations) about 6 months prior to my wife and I going to a great Sex therapist. It was only after that she had realized I had changed greatly. She had gone to a naturopathic doctor specializing in women's medicine and hormone issues. I asked my wife, since my wife refused to have sex with me to ask her doctor for a recommendation of 3 sex therapists she would recommend. I then came up with my own list and shared it with my wife. Luckily for me, the one I liked the best was on her list.
> 
> Sex Therapists are marriage counselors with extra training in helping couples with various kinds of sexual problems. Because of all the relationship books, I read, I was interested in a marriage counselor who had training in Sue Johnson's emotionally focused therapy, or Gottman's therapy. I researched the CV's and statements of each of several of the board certified sex therapists to find one that I thought would do the best for my situation.
> 
> ...


How long ago did she ask her question about divorce?

The wording you lay out shows someone who clearly still belittles a sexual relationship. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

OP:

Someone else posted a quote I absolutely love, and it bears repeating:

You shouldn't have to set yourself on fire to keep her warm. 

Or put another way, you are working your ass off performing CPR on the dying body of your marriage, while she is off doing something else entirely. 

Your choices are more than remaining sexless or divorce. A situation similar to yours brought me to this site in 2014. 18 months of hard work righted the ship.

Coming back to the CPR example, I simply stopped compressions. Then she had to make the choice to contribute some effort...or let it die.

There are some tangible things you can try if you sick and tired of being sick and tired, yet maybe you are not quite ready to drop divorce papers.

It starts by no longer allowing her to be comfortable in the midst of your own discomfort.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

wanting more said:


> Can I offer my own nightmare? I stopped asking my wife for sex about 24 years ago. The answer was ALWAYS NO. Yes, we still do have sex, but it is on HER schedule, which is few and far between - usually every 11-12 days. My issue is that I lost my job 19 years ago, and as a result, she had to return to the workforce... She has resented me ever sense and lets me know this fact every chance she gets. I now have a career that has been longer than ANY OTHER job I have ever held, but it appears it is not enough. I am apparently unworthy of affection because of this and it is hard to press forward. My wife wants nothing to do with me and I am reminded of that almost every week of my life. The rejection is far too much for me to bear - much less the lack of physical touch - which is my Love Language. In my opinion, she speaks ZERO Love Language to me, for she is always annoyed and somehow, wants more from me... Just as a reference; I perform 75% of the shopping (groceries, errands, etc), 80% of the housework, 90% of the laundry, the only time the bathrooms get cleaned is when I do it, I perform 100% of the finances and paying the bills, I am wondering when it might be possible for me to accomplish anything additional, and yet, I am told it is not enough.... Yes, I realize that she is walking all over me, but am I missing anything else? Any advice other than RUN AWAY?


All of your efforts to be a better servant will never be enough because servants are not attractive.
Strong, confident, competent men who have expectations and boundaries and don’t let women (or anyone else for that matter) walk all over them, and who lead their marriage are attractive.

From what you describe, she does not respect you as a man or a husband, she’s not in love with you, not attracted to you yes and does not desire you as a man.

Maybe you can salvage things and maybe you can’t at this point.
The plan is actually the same either way. Your best course of action to improve your situation is to focus on what is within your control, YOU.

You need to become a stronger, more confident man who has boundaries and chooses (and enforces) what he will and will not tolerate in his marriage and life. You need to become a man who doesn’t let his wife walk all over him.
That takes work, and you have to build it, and you have to earn it (and not by doing more chores to placate your wife).

And once you’re there you’ll be able to set your boundaries, expectations and requirements for your marriage. And your wife will either choose to change her tune and get on board, or she won’t. And if not, you will have put yourself in a much better position to move on to something better.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

wanting more said:


> Can I offer my own nightmare? *I stopped asking my wife for sex about 24 years ago. The answer was ALWAYS NO. Yes, we still do have sex, but it is on HER schedule, which is few and far between - usually every 11-12 days. *My issue is that I lost my job 19 years ago, and as a result, she had to return to the workforce... *She has resented me ever sense and lets me know this fact every chance she gets*.



I gotta ask, it just seems so bizarre....to me, anyway...

If even half of what you are saying is true about how she treats you and what she thinks of you, how then is it even remotely possible that you would want to put a dck in her?? I think I'd rather drag my nuts over a football field of broken glass before I would do that....It's dumbfounding...Please help me to understand this...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> How long ago did she ask her question about divorce?
> 
> The wording you lay out shows someone who clearly still belittles a sexual relationship.


She asked it a couple months after we stopped seeing the ST. Maybe 3 months after we started to have sex again on a regular basis.

I don't think that she belittles a sexual relationship. She has a low libido or sexual drive. I honestly believe she just doesn't feel that sex is important to her and as such finds it hard to believe how important it is to other people. She knows how important sex is to me and in turn to our marriage. It just confused her at the time. Over time, she does better understand how important sex and the emotional connection I get from it, is to me and to our marriage.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

hamadryad said:


> I gotta ask, it just seems so bizarre....to me, anyway...
> 
> If even half of what you are saying is true about how she treats you and what she thinks of you, how then is it even remotely possible that you would want to put a dck in her?? I think I'd rather drag my nuts over a football field of broken glass before I would do that....It's dumbfounding...Please help me to understand this...


Maybe he still loves her...


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> Maybe he still loves her...



There isn't enough love on this planet to sacrifice your dignity to that level....but I guess some people enjoy that type of stuff...


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Mr.Married said:


> I find it so strange that people would rather be a martyr “because of vows” than to recognize and act upon the fact that they are no longer in a true and functioning marriage.


It’s easier to do nothing. It’s not uncommon for people not wanting to make decisions


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Marc878 said:


> It’s easier to do nothing. It’s not uncommon for people not wanting to make decisions


Marc you are undoubtedly correct but it just blows my mind .... totally. I don’t understand how people can hate themselves that much.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> I think I'd rather drag my nuts over a football field of broken glass before I would do that....


Lolol!!!!! Oh this is AWESOME...what a description...Lol!!!!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> Marc you are undoubtedly correct but it just blows my mind .... totally. I don’t understand how people can hate themselves that much.


I cannot either...being ALONE is better than living with someone who makes me feel that bad.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> I cannot either...being ALONE is better than living with someone who makes me feel that bad.


Girl write that chit in stone because it will forever be our truths!


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

wanting more said:


> Yes, I realize that she is walking all over me, but am I missing anything else? Any advice other than RUN AWAY?


The only other option is to STOP. 

As in STOP doing all your doing. STOP letting her walk all over you. STOP looking for ways to do more for her. As someone said above, STOP allowing her to be comfortable with this miserable situation.


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## Mfgtr (Jan 2, 2022)

To all
THANK YOU so much for your responses. 
Since posting / starting this thread a small breakthrough has occurred. 
In my original post I mentioned that my wife has some physical issues. These issues over time have taken a toll. But we just found out some news from our doctor that shed light on specifically what has happened to her over the last 2 years - ( turns out nurse withheld important info in my wife’s blood tests and she was misdiagnosed and resulted in body weekness / over all dulling of senses ). 
All of your responses were helpful and I DID find a counselor and will follow up if need be. But my wife and I now have a much better idea of what has taken place with her and have enjoyed a very kind , sweet and affectionate last few evenings. She is now much more open and able to process the moment and I have a much more firm handle on her current needs.
NUTSHELL :
I was going after a paradigm from years ago 
But my wife’s needs are much different now and her medical state must be addressed first so as we can be intimate - TOGETHER - as opposed to her being out of it , uncomfortable and filling out a lazy hand job just to keep me from acting out or bailing on us.
So there you go
She’ll still have to be there for me , for us etc
But now that we’ve zeroed in on what’s happening NOW - we have a better foundation to go forward.

Im willing to give it a try and I LOVE having her with me.


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## BenWylder (Aug 2, 2021)

I’m thinking it’s finally time to tell her I’m seeking a counselor and if she’s not interested in participating - I’m preparing for whatever comes next.

I think your on the right track, you only live once and if she has shown any interest in saving your relationship then it's probably time to move on.


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> And you said you love this man?


A question I've been avoiding now for a very long time.


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

wanting more said:


> Can I offer my own nightmare? I stopped asking my wife for sex about 24 years ago. The answer was ALWAYS NO. Yes, we still do have sex, but it is on HER schedule, which is few and far between - usually every 11-12 days. My issue is that I lost my job 19 years ago, and as a result, she had to return to the workforce... She has resented me ever sense and lets me know this fact every chance she gets. I now have a career that has been longer than ANY OTHER job I have ever held, but it appears it is not enough. I am apparently unworthy of affection because of this and it is hard to press forward. My wife wants nothing to do with me and I am reminded of that almost every week of my life. The rejection is far too much for me to bear - much less the lack of physical touch - which is my Love Language. In my opinion, she speaks ZERO Love Language to me, for she is always annoyed and somehow, wants more from me... Just as a reference; I perform 75% of the shopping (groceries, errands, etc), 80% of the housework, 90% of the laundry, the only time the bathrooms get cleaned is when I do it, I perform 100% of the finances and paying the bills, I am wondering when it might be possible for me to accomplish anything additional, and yet, I am told it is not enough.... Yes, I realize that she is walking all over me, but am I missing anything else? Any advice other than RUN AWAY?


It sounds like it's time to have a serious sit down. So she has voiced her distain for having to pick up the slack so to speak with getting a job. In turn have you validated that frustration? In other words instead of saying, well this is just how it is now, or that's just how it had to be in that moment, have you taken the time to say "Honey, I hear you. I know you're frustrated, how can I fix it? Maybe I can't fix it, but I want to. I want you to know I hear you."

If you have in some form done that, from my perspective as a women then it is just time you had a talk. A real talk about the place you're in. 

I'm in spot where I don't even want to to talk to my spouse, I have been either invalidated so many time, recently with being shut down with being screamed at and name called which is a fun new little twist, that I don't even care anymore. I mean I'm going crazy but I can't count on my husband for any type of emotional support, there is no safe place to talk, I do everything in our home, with the exception of being the bread winner as you state you do, only mine truly is 100 of cooking, groceries, childcare, house cleaning, dishes, laundry, ect. It's all me. And when I hear men in your situation, I try to give a women the benefit of the doubt because I know what true neglect is. I know what it's like to not have a partner. 

I feel for you. Hope you're in a place where you two can have this deep discussion that sounds like it needs to be had.


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## Defhero (Jan 5, 2022)

Mfgtr said:


> Hello
> I’ve been married for 22 years and my wife has completely stopped showing ANY physical attention or tenderness.
> I’ve talked to her and talked to her for years. She has physical issues that cause her body aches and occasional pains and we’ve experienced much financial stress over the recent years. But I treat her extremely well and just getting her to hold hands now puts a resentful look on her face. I’ve literally told her I’m craving the touch of a woman who appears glad to see me and that I’m on the brink of acting out and there’s zero response.
> I’ve not cheated on her and insist on being honorable through this.
> ...



End of the road, take a different path.....


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Mfgtr said:


> Hello
> I’ve been married for 22 years and my wife has completely stopped showing ANY physical attention or tenderness.
> I’ve talked to her and talked to her for years. She has physical issues that cause her body aches and occasional pains and we’ve experienced much financial stress over the recent years. But I treat her extremely well and just getting her to hold hands now puts a resentful look on her face. I’ve literally told her I’m craving the touch of a woman who appears glad to see me and that I’m on the brink of acting out and there’s zero response.
> I’ve not cheated on her and insist on being honorable through this.
> ...


You don't seem to have any empathy for her aches and pains, so she doesn't have any empathy for your sexual needs. Once you know a woman is hurting but you want to have sex with her anyway, that's when the cause resentment and start a spiral downward.


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## Bea22 (9 mo ago)

Mfgtr said:


> Thanks for the response.
> Yeah , I think she may resent me for some financials but I’ve been meeting my obligations for years and dialogue with me is always an option.
> I did the pursuing in the beginning and she loved it. As for her cheating ?
> It would be pretty difficult as she rarely leaves the house and has restrictions on her physical abilities - but she is on her phone a lot , gets upset easily when I point it out and is tuning out further.
> ...


For what it's worth, my husband also suffered from severe depression, had some very big troubles at work. For 3 years almost he was a different person. Also rejected me and had zero sex drive. 
Now, he's better and our affection and sex life is much better. 

Maybe depression is to blame...? 

Can you talk to her about getting on medication or seeing someone together? 

I remember talking to my husband didn't really help because when you have depression you don't see as clearly as you used to and don't see a way out. You become hopeless. He just stonewalled me and said nothing is wrong. Now he says he can't believe he was in such a dark place. Depression is an isolating and lonely mental illness. 

Keep on showing her your support and love and show her you're there for her.... I understand that it's hard and you're starting to feel somewhat resentful. Sometimes it's good to feel thay your partner has your back. I hope this helps. 

Comming from someone who's been there I really hope you can work through this. 

Good luck


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