# What is your definition of sex?



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Most experts claim a sexless marriage is one in which the couple has sex less than 10 times a year. In which case I guess I live in a sexless marriage.

But that got me thinking, what really counts as "sex"? 
obviously penetrative intercourse counts but what about oral or other forms foreplay/sexual activity?

I feel like I keep having the following unresolved conversation with my wife...

me "its been weeks since we had sex"
wife "we just had sex this weekend!"
me "you massaged my penis for 1 minute and then said your arm was tired and fell asleep, that doesn't count as sex!"
wife "sure it does!"

So what is YOUR definition of sex?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I would argue it is a sex act, but incomplete if it didn't bring you to orgasm. But I doubt that helps you much.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Playing semantics is not going to get you anywhere, if anything it may drive her desire lower.

But to answer the question: to me whatever happens in a "session" is sex. So sometimes it might be everything including oral, masturbation, PIV etc. Some sessions may just be mutual masturbation or oral on either/either or both of us, again I would say we have had sex. 
A session to me is within a time frame so like a couple of nights ago we had a big session with the lot, then my partner was ready to go again with just PIV about 1/2 hr later. If I was answering a survey I would say we had sex twice that night.

Maybe my definition is different to the next persons but people that just have oral or masturbation before marriage have IMHO had sex before marriage.

When was the last time you told her you want to make love to her? That you desire her so badly that you just have to have her?


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Sex - method to ensure continuation of the human species.


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## Antman (Oct 19, 2013)

Sex equals penis in vagina or rectum. If you haven't "****ed", you haven't had sex.
You'd never hear a guy say "u ****ed her last night" when discussing a hand job or blow job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Antman said:


> Sex equals penis in vagina or rectum. If you haven't "****ed", you haven't had sex.
> You'd never hear a guy say "u ****ed her last night" when discussing a hand job or blow job.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course you wouldn't hear that because a **** is generally considered PIV. The question was about sex, not just ****ing.

So if a BJ or HJ, oral etc is not sex, then what is it?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Hmmm... You've been posting for the last 18 months about an unsatisfactory sex life in a young marriage. And now you asking for advice on whether a half-hearted hand job "counts" as sex...

Here's my thoughts. In a marriage, no orgasm for either partner = no sex.

But you, my friend, have bigger issues if you'd even consider this to be a healthy sex life. When's the last time that you could say that the two of you undeniably had sex? You've been in this forum for almost 18 months... Why are you taking pity scraps from your wife's hand still? You've doubled the length of time you've been married since you joined the site; have you made ANY progress in fixing things in that time?

These are the questions you should be pondering. Not "Did we just have sex?"

C


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

Toshiba2020 said:


> Most experts claim a sexless marriage is one in which the couple has sex less than 10 times a year. In which case I guess I live in a sexless marriage.
> 
> But that got me thinking, what really counts as "sex"?
> obviously penetrative intercourse counts but what about oral or other forms foreplay/sexual activity?
> ...


I can't believe you allow her this. What consequences does she have for treating you like this? You started this thread but know full well the answer to the question does not include what your wife is claiming. She is wrong and you living with no sex is sad. Don't stick around. Stop doing things for her immediately.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I keep a log. In order for a day to get a check mark I require penetration and 'orgasm opportunity'. So a bj counts but a hj doesn't. Oral sex is sex. Masturbation is masturbation. And any activity that ends before orgasm doesn't count.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Toshiba2020 said:


> Most experts claim a sexless marriage is one in which the couple has sex less than 10 times a year. In which case I guess I live in a sexless marriage.
> 
> But that got me thinking, what really counts as "sex"?
> obviously penetrative intercourse counts but what about oral or other forms foreplay/sexual activity?
> ...


Sex (in my definition) is intercourse with the fireworks at the end.....the other night, we wanted to do it, it was late, a busy day, we had foreplay, I went down on him...but really...he needed to get to sleep...it didn't happen...so I wouldn't count that...

The next day, I'd be saying "Looking forward to tonight... I need it... its been DAYS". 

~Getting back to you...your wife is taking advantage of you.... she is trying to get her way, for whatever reason, I have no idea..but you are indeed living in a sexless marriage, it's very hurtful and WRONG...this will lead you to the path of Resentment and pain.

Resentment – A Real Danger to the State of Happiness

You need to have a frank discussion with her about the needs of a man... the Emotional needs of a man....article that might help...

Sex Is an Emotional Need
Male sexuality is a central part of who he is as both a man and a husband. 

If I was were you, if no kids..& she keeps dismissing you, no care to how you feel...I would leave her... life is too short...and you will be looking into your future long haul.

This article well explains how vital sex is in marriage...even though it was written from a sexless point of view...when something has been lost...such writers have a way of feeling it's importance even more so. 

This is What a Sexless Marriage Feels Like - And yet - Open Salon


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## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Holland said:


> Playing semantics is not going to get you anywhere, if anything it may drive her desire lower.
> 
> But to answer the question: to me whatever happens in a "session" is sex. So sometimes it might be everything including oral, masturbation, PIV etc. Some sessions may just be mutual masturbation or oral on either/either or both of us, again I would say we have had sex.
> A session to me is within a time frame so like a couple of nights ago we had a big session with the lot, then my partner was ready to go again with just PIV about 1/2 hr later. If I was answering a survey I would say we had sex twice that night.
> ...


I say it at least once or twice a week, she usually just laughs at me at first, then when i try to give her a hug, kiss her, etc...she will say she is not in the mood and turn me away me even as far as physically pushing me away if i were to say grab her butt or her hips. Unless its a back rub, she will let me do that first, then reject me, funny how she has time for a 30 minute back rub but after she is immediately busy again.



WorkingOnMe said:


> I keep a log. In order for a day to get a check mark I require penetration and 'orgasm opportunity'. So a bj counts but a hj doesn't. Oral sex is sex. Masturbation is masturbation. And any activity that ends before orgasm doesn't count.


I actually do keep a log...
725 Yellow (neither person made an effort to have sex)
212 red (i tried but got rejected)
0 purple (she tried and i shot her down...yes its zero)
49 blue (HJs, BJs, making out, minor or one sided sexual acts)
40 green (intercourse...what i consider "sex")



nogutsnoglory said:


> I can't believe you allow her this. What consequences does she have for treating you like this? You started this thread but know full well the answer to the question does not include what your wife is claiming. She is wrong and you living with no sex is sad. Don't stick around. Stop doing things for her immediately.


Consequences? none!

Im at the point where i just dont talk about it anymore, all it does is makes her mad and she makes living around the house unbearable for a week and in the end the nothing changes. So i dont bring it up and then i dont have to walk on egg shells constantly. Obviously Its a terrible long term strategy.



PBear said:


> Hmmm... You've been posting for the last 18 months about an unsatisfactory sex life in a young marriage. And now you asking for advice on whether a half-hearted hand job "counts" as sex...
> 
> Here's my thoughts. In a marriage, no orgasm for either partner = no sex.
> 
> ...


The last time i would say we undeniably sex was July. Since then just a few half-hearted one sided attempts to get me off her back, usually not even letting me touch her in return.

The only thing that has changed in the last 18 months is we fight less, but thats because she works even more, 60+ hours is normal for her now. So when she gets home we just eat dinner, have some light conversation and go to bed, nothing to argue about when you dont discuss anything more serious than the weather.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

When the other poster said "consequences" I think what they meant is you doing something more than just pouting about the lack of sex. 

I am not going to suggest the only solution to a low or sexless marriage is to leave. Accepting it is also a valid solution. 

If you do not feel that it is likely that you will be able to do any better than her for some reason than I suppose sex once a year and a half hearted HJ is at least better than nothing. 

But if that is the case than keeping a log of how little sex you get is not a good way to deal with it.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Sex is something where penetration occurs.

I think the intimacy is on a pyramid with different levels.

PIV and Anal would be at the highest level, with PIV slightly above anal.

Below this would be oral

Below this would be hj or mutual masterbation

Below this would be tounge kiss

Below this would be kissing on different body parts

Below this would be physical touch on other parts of the body

Below this would be a hug


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Is she getting any on the side?
Whatever the reasons, this is a stupid situation that you are ineffectively trying to deal with and she won't!
If you don't up your game and stop settling for this pathetic existence, you are doomed to a life of begging for scraps for as long as she puts up with your apparently "beta" attempts at fixing your marriage.
You NEED to do something along the lines of a 180 and start improving yourself for yourself.
Your previous attempts have failed, your wife does not respect you or your feelings.

I am honored to have sex with my wife and she is honored by my affection.

If two people don't understand that they "get" to have sex with each other then there is a serious problem.

Your wife doesn't understand this and I don't think you do either.

Start respecting yourself, your wife won't.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

To a biologist, anything that can or does lead to reproduction is sex. To a sociologist, almost everything is about sex. 

I'll say somewhere in between, specifically any stimulation of an erogenous zone that produces sexual arousal, whether or not it results in satisfaction. (E.g., PIV is sex, involves arousal, but may not be satisfying for her.)

Technically, OP, she's correct, but in a very nasty and emotionally manipulative way. If I were in this situation, next time I'd get her all excited and walk away, then ask her later how the sex was.


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

Forget trying to define sex, you have a larger problem, you are in a sexless marriage.

You are not going to change your wife, You have two options:

1. Accept the sexless marriage, and learn to live with 1 minute hand jobs.

2. Get divorced and find someone more compatible


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## C3156 (Jun 13, 2012)

To your question, my definition of sex includes orgasm. If one party has an orgasm, you had sex. (Yes, Bill Clinton had sex with Monica).

As others have stated, you have larger issues than defining sex. The lack of sex is a symtom but not the root cause. 



Toshiba2020 said:


> The only thing that has changed in the last 18 months is we fight less, but thats because she works even more, 60+ hours is normal for her now. So when she gets home we just eat dinner, have some light conversation and go to bed, nothing to argue about when you dont discuss anything more serious than the weather.


This is crazy, does she need to work this much or is she just trying to get away from you? 

I would drop logging how many times you have/have not had sex, all it will do is piss you off. You are not going to get her into bed with statistics. You need to either get to the root cause of the issues between you or just let her go.


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## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Is she getting any on the side?
> Whatever the reasons, this is a stupid situation that you are ineffectively trying to deal with and she won't!
> If you don't up your game and stop settling for this pathetic existence, you are doomed to a life of begging for scraps for as long as she puts up with your apparently "beta" attempts at fixing your marriage.
> You NEED to do something along the lines of a 180 and start improving yourself for yourself.
> ...


if shes getting some on the side she is being very discrete about it as i havent had that worry even once in over 3 years of marriage.

As PBear said earlier i have been posting on this forum for over a year and a half, i feel as if ive tried it all, the 180, being a "alpha" male, marriage therapy, you name it ive probably tried it but nothing seems to work.



BradWesley said:


> Forget trying to define sex, you have a larger problem, you are in a sexless marriage.
> 
> You are not going to change your wife, You have two options:
> 
> ...


 I think changing her mind and level of desire will be a pretty tough task when even she admits that sex is just not a priority for her.



C3156 said:


> To your question, my definition of sex includes orgasm. If one party has an orgasm, you had sex. (Yes, Bill Clinton had sex with Monica).
> 
> As others have stated, you have larger issues than defining sex. The lack of sex is a symtom but not the root cause.
> 
> ...


Most people in her office dont work that much and she doesnt enjoy working that much but she doesnt know how to tell people no and just lets them dump last minute work on her. its terribly ironic how she has a obsessive need to make everyone in her live happy, be it co-workers, parents, siblings, grandparents, etc...yet the person closest to her (me) gets ignored physically and emotionally. she is always worrying about everyone to the point where she breaks down in tears of frustration that she cant make everyone happy.

She will spend hours talking about some problem her parents are having yet cant find the time to have a serious conversation with her husband or to have sex.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Toshiba2020 said:


> if shes getting some on the side she is being very discrete about it as i havent had that worry even once in over 3 years of marriage.
> 
> As PBear said earlier i have been posting on this forum for over a year and a half, i feel as if ive tried it all, the 180, being a "alpha" male, marriage therapy, you name it ive probably tried it but nothing seems to work.
> 
> ...


How about stop trying to get her. Be the best man you can be for yourself. Worry about your attractiveness to women outside of her. Use charm and attraction on other women, you don't have to cheat. Dance helps put you in and around other sexy ladies without affair sex.

I mean is she attracted to anyone on this earth, can any one on this earth fire her loins up?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You've only been married 3 years and you've been struggling with this for half of it? You must be a glutton for punishment.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You've only been married 3 years and you've been struggling with this for half of it? You must be a glutton for punishment.


This comment is worthy of a deep TAM belly laugh in being able to relate.


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## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

treyvion said:


> How about stop trying to get her. Be the best man you can be for yourself. Worry about your attractiveness to women outside of her. Use charm and attraction on other women, you don't have to cheat. Dance helps put you in and around other sexy ladies without affair sex.
> 
> I mean is she attracted to anyone on this earth, can any one on this earth fire her loins up?


About a year ago i started focusing on my needs. i figured how can i possible make someone else happy if im not happy in the first place. So i spend more time with friends, playing sports and go to the gym multiple days a week, im in the best physical shape of my life. None of this has helped my marriage but i have way more self confidence and am in a happy and positive mood, not that i was ever really depressed or anything like that.



WorkingOnMe said:


> You've only been married 3 years and you've been struggling with this for half of it? You must be a glutton for punishment.


ehh, actually it all started BEFORE the marriage, if youre really interested her are more details.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/41086-newlywed-desperate-help.html


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

She sounds like she has unresolved issues.
I guess if she doesn't want to get IC and dig into herself to find the answers nothing will change.
Does she know she is destroying her marriage?
Does she care?:scratchhead:


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Toshiba2020 said:


> I say it at least once or twice a week, *she usually just laughs at me at first*, then when i try to give her a hug, kiss her, etc...she will say she is not in the mood and turn me away me even as far as physically pushing me away if i were to say grab her butt or her hips. Unless its a back rub, she will let me do that first, then reject me, funny how she has time for a 30 minute back rub but after she is immediately busy again.


Sex is not your problem.

Why are you married to her?


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## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> She sounds like she has unresolved issues.
> I guess if she doesn't want to get IC and dig into herself to find the answers nothing will change.
> Does she know she is destroying her marriage?
> Does she care?:scratchhead:


its been months since i made an attempt at a serious conversation as it would just end in her crying and shutting me out. She has to be in some form of denial as the last 6 months or so she brings up the topic of having a kid. I usually just remind her that we have to have sex to have a baby and that there is no way you can raise a kid and work 60 hours a week, that abruptly brings her back to reality.



Tall Average Guy said:


> Sex is not your problem.
> 
> Why are you married to her?


I married her because at the time she had lots of great qualities, so i no regrets what i did back then. Everything was fine when we were dating and engaged but once we got married that all changed. Bait and switch?

Im not sure but for one reason or another everything changed when we got married (a few months before to be exact). The real question is why do i say in a unhappy marriage, wasting away my youthful years? Im still working on a answer for that...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Holland said:


> So if a BJ or HJ, oral etc is not sex, then what is it?



Now paging Kenneth Starr


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Toshiba2020 said:


> I married her because at the time she had lots of great qualities, so i no regrets what i did back then. Everything was fine when we were dating and engaged but once we got married that all changed. Bait and switch?
> 
> Im not sure but for one reason or another everything changed when we got married (a few months before to be exact). The real question is why do i say in a unhappy marriage, wasting away my youthful years? Im still working on a answer for that...


I did not ask why you married her (past). I asked why are you married to her (current). That is what you need to figure out.

Why would you remain married to a woman that laughs at you when you initiate sex? You need to figure that out first.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

john117 said:


> Now paging Kenneth Starr


No idea what this means. Is it an Americanism?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Holland said:


> No idea what this means. Is it an Americanism?


Legal figure who investigated the Clinton / Lewinsky affair. His report opened the door to impeachment of Clinton.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

And whose investigation produces a report straight out of TAM 

"That depends on what the meaning of is is" 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...98/09/bill_clinton_and_the_meaning_of_is.html

Same with original OP question...


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I did not ask why you married her (past). I asked why are you married to her (current). That is what you need to figure out.
> 
> Why would you remain married to a woman that laughs at you when you initiate sex? You need to figure that out first.


She might do it because she doesn't really want to do this with him, so she's trying to kill his desire.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

treyvion said:


> She might do it because she doesn't really want to do this with him, so she's trying to kill his desire.


Before he figures out why she does it, he needs to understand why he puts up with it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Something has to give bro. I feel for you.
There is only so much you can do if she won't. As much as I love my wife, I would eventually have to move on if I was in your situation. I would risk becoming a cheater, being aroused by being around my wife everyday and not getting any release would start doing pretty crappy things to my mind.

Since I won't cheat, I would have to move on.

There are lots of good women who are at least horny enough to have real, passionate, sex a couple times a week.

Take care, hope you have some resolution soon.


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## keeper63 (Mar 22, 2012)

On those rare occasions where I give her oral and nothing else happens that involves my penis, we both consider that "sex". A friend of mine used to say "Eatin' ain't cheatin'", but I don't buy that.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Toshiba2020 said:


> Its terribly ironic how she has a obsessive need to make everyone in her live happy, be it co-workers, parents, siblings, grandparents, etc...yet the person closest to her (me) gets ignored physically and emotionally.


It's not ironic. It's intentional. Despite your best efforts to date, she figures she has you sewn up, so she doesn't have to bother. Those other people have other things going on in their lives and she has to compete with that to get their approval.

You've been married for over three years and been on this board for 18 months. So, the length of time that your wife was meeting your need was very short (if it ever was at that state). What you need to go is have a very basic, foundational discussion of why your wife married you in the first place.

And, you need to be prepared to hear some very unpleasant truth. For instance, my ex-w faked her sexual willingness when she asked me to marry her. The truth came out that she faked it to have security and to justify the sex we had prior to marriage. It sucks to hear that, but that's the only way to know where you stand and figure out what to do about it.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

treyvion said:


> She might do it because she doesn't really want to do this with him, so she's trying to kill his desire.


Well, in my mind that is a given. The real question is why did she marry him knowing she didn't like being with him.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

If you have to ask this question the answer is that you aren't getting enough. (Captain Obvious)

It sounds like she is making excuses - a lot of excuses to avoid intimacy and one of them is denying that she is starving you. Oh, I just fed you last week! It was a piece of toast. That's still feeding you! 

Whatever.

Look - you have no kids and a lot of life ahead of you. Life is short, my friend. Waiting for the magic day something happens to change her attitude about this is going to result in many years of misery. 

To quote Oprah quoting Maya Angelou - when someone shows you their true self, believe them.


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