# Question about No More Mr Nice Guy



## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

I've read a lot of posts about people recommending Guys to read No More My Nice Guy and I've read the book a couple of times but I'm struggling with this.

Usually a guy (or girl sometimes) will post that he's asked his wife for sex and gets nowhere, initiates gets rejected etc still no where so he's told to go in the NMMNG and work on himself - get a new hobby, work out etc. 

If you're in a relationship where your wife never initiates does that mean you no longer initiate?

My relationship is now pretty much dead in the water but I hope this post helps me become a better man for my next one or help other guys. 

So you've got a wife that wants sex maybe 2-3 times a month. She never initiates, sex is always on say a Saturday night after she's relaxed with a few drinks (or maybe not). You always lean over and start touching/kissing. You know its game on if she doesn't stop you. When she does stop you, you retreat back to your side of the bed fuming about being rejected yet again.

You suggest spicing things up a bit, sharing a shower together, locking the living room door and having sex or even a lunch time when the kids are out of the house by texting her and inviting her to the bedroom. All suggestions rejected. 

You raise the subject about how your bored with your sex life and would like to know what's needed to improve it, your wife says she should really make more effort when it comes to sex but sometimes is too tired etc. Nothing changes after the talk.

You wake up before your wife on a Saturday morning and snooze on and off waiting for her to wake up to see if she's in the mood. She wakes up - she's not. The week after however after she's rejected you again at night and after you say you're bored with the situation she says that she was in the mood the day before but you'd got out of bed and went downstairs before I woke up. (Surely the solution in that instance would have been to text me inviting me back to bed??) - probably just an excuse.

These are some of things I went through with my now estranged wife over a period of time and I'm sure there's lots of men and women going through the same thing.

So my question is, if you're a man or woman in this situation do you completely stop initiating sex and get on with your life as room mates for the time being? Working out, and becoming more independent to make you a better person ?
So on a saturday night when I'd usually have tried to initiate I should have not done?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

BIL310 said:


> I've read a lot of posts about people recommending Guys to read No More My Nice Guy and I've read the book a couple of times but I'm struggling with this.
> 
> Usually a guy (or girl sometimes) will post that he's asked his wife for sex and gets nowhere, initiates gets rejected etc still no where so he's told to go in the NMMNG and work on himself - get a new hobby, work out etc.


I can't speak for others, yet my advice is mostly to dump the withholding spouse and or seek sex elsewhere.



> If you're in a relationship where your wife never initiates does that mean you no longer initiate?


If you are in a marriage with a limited sex life and you no longer wish to have sex with your wife ever at all, then you should no longer initiate.



> My relationship is now pretty much dead in the water but I hope this post helps me become a better man for my next one or help other guys.


That sux, and I hope you find what you are looking for.



> So you've got a wife that wants sex maybe 2-3 times a month. She never initiates, sex is always on say a Saturday night after she's relaxed with a few drinks (or maybe not). You always lean over and start touching/kissing. You know its game on if she doesn't stop you. When she does stop you, you retreat back to your side of the bed fuming about being rejected yet again.


If you kept trying to initiate sex with me in the same way over and over again for years on end, I wouldn't want to have sex with you either.

That said if the default is to be turned down and this occurs the majority of the time. I don't see anything wrong with replacing a sexual partner who failed to live up to that description.



> You suggest spicing things up a bit, sharing a shower together, locking the living room door and having sex or even a lunch time when the kids are out of the house by texting her and inviting her to the bedroom. All suggestions rejected.


In the future if ever you find yourself in a romantic/sexual relationship I encourage you to never ever bring up those kind of things as discussion points beforehand. Since if you want to have sex with a sexual partner when they are having a shower join them in the shower when they have gotten into the shower and flirt, touch and kiss them etc.

Likewise if you want to have sex with a sexual partner behind a locked door in the living room, then lock the door and start on them.

Save the discussion stuff for big ticket items. Like telling a sexual partner that you want them to tickle you with a feather, while you put your foot inside their best friends vagina.



> You raise the subject about how your bored with your sex life and would like to know what's needed to improve it, your wife says she should really make more effort when it comes to sex but sometimes is too tired etc. Nothing changes after the talk.


So your wife hears you tell her you find sex with her boring, and you want her to figure out how to tell you how to get more sex out of her. While you are pretty passive sexually, and keep insisting on initiating sex same old interminably.

That really isn't a winning strategy.

As to things not changing after the talk, you're weren't changing either. So what the hell do you expect? When you come at this a bit whiney, a lot passive, and don't bring any sexual excitement to the table either.



> You wake up before your wife on a Saturday morning and snooze on and off waiting for her to wake up to see if she's in the mood. She wakes up - she's not. The week after however after she's rejected you again at night and after you say you're bored with the situation she says that she was in the mood the day before but you'd got out of bed and went downstairs before I woke up. (Surely the solution in that instance would have been to text me inviting me back to bed??) - probably just an excuse.


Passive, passive, passive, passive, passive, passive, being passive!

Seriously were your arms and legs broken? Were you hands in mittens so you couldn't scratch yourself?

Since if they weren't, there was nothing stopping you from reaching across and feeling her up and starting to get her going. If you wanted sex you were doing it wrong, since your approach almost guarantees that you won't get any.

Oh and if you think texting a sexual partner instead of communicating in person with them, when you are in the same house together is a winning approach. please think again. Since using words from your mouth, with facial expressions and eye contact, has far more mileage and affords more opportunities for doing things that generate sexual arousal than texting (dull, dull, dull!).



> These are some of things I went through with my now estranged wife over a period of time and I'm sure there's lots of men and women going through the same thing.


Being passive while sleeping at the wheel makes such outcomes more likely than not.



> So my question is, if you're a man or woman in this situation do you completely stop initiating sex and get on with your life as room mates for the time being? Working out, and becoming more independent to make you a better person ?


If you like you can do that. Although I do hope you appreciate that one can be independent and work out often, yet doing those things doesn't necessarily make anyone a better person.



> So on a saturday night when I'd usually have tried to initiate I should have not done?


Since being boring is guaranteed to suck the life out of any sex life, then yes I think you should have stopped doing that.

Things can be better. Yet if you repeat the same mistakes, you're more likely to get the sam results moving forward. And that doesn't need to happen to you again.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

Some great replies above thanks!

Regarding being passive, I did try in the past waking her up by touching her, kissing etc instead of lying there waiting for her to wake up - got me nowhere. Rejected.

Shower same situation - she was in the showers so I just undressed and got in and she said get out I've got to wash my hair - kissed me back but then opened the door and pushed me out.

I locked the bedroom door when the kids were in their rooms but not asleep and initiated - refused again.

It's hard getting rejected all the time especially when you're the only initiating. 

I found the only solution was to leave in the end which I've recently done. However I see similar posts on here every day. I personally think the No more Mr Nice Guy advise is ********, if your wife isn't interested she's not interested.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

You’re still acting like a NG.

In order for your wife to be in a relationship with you it needs to be a sexual relationship. You’re not happy with it and she needs to see that it is a problem for her because if she doesn’t fix it you will not be there.

The self improvement aspect is to get you into the above mindset. The de-nice stuff is to get you behaving like a leader.

If you want to have sex and she says no or avoids it or skips out on it; that’s fine do something else. 

I was tired Saturday night and I had to lay down at 7:45pm. I told my wife I was going to bed and she said she was going to stay up. I said ok wake me up when you go to bed. She didn’t. Instead she messed around on her phone playing match 3 games. I noticed when I rolled over around midnight.

Next morning got up early, made coffee, did some work, put gas in the car, went to the store and bought a swordfish steak because I felt like making it for dinner. Then I went to the garage and lifted weights for an hour. I came inside and set aside what I wanted to eat for breakfast and pulled some pork links out of the freezer to thaw.

Meanwhile (in the house) wife hears activity all around her that she isn’t participating in. She eventually gets up and puts on workout clothes to go on a walk. She asks if I want to go and I say yes and tell her where I want to walk and what I am making for breakfast when we get back.

After that I went back and worked for a few more hours. Then I made the swordfish I wanted to make outside on the grill.

I had a plan of what I wanted to do that day and she could either do some of it or not.

That night she came to bed on time and did something she had never done in bed with me in 20+ years. If she didn’t come to bed then rinse, wash, and repeat. You are doing your own thing and if she wants to be part of it that’s good but if not well then she knows the ultimate end result.

You need to be thinking about yourself as high value.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Not particularly fond of Dr. Phil; but, he once said that if a guy wants sex on a Friday night he had better start working on it on Monday. The point being that a sexual relationship needs to be kept on at least a low simmer. Get your spouse to think about sex daily rather than just when you crawl into bed on a Saturday night and start with the fondling. Marriage is a sexual relationship so keep it sexual. 

Complaining and whining about lack of sex is a serious turnoff to women. It then becomes a chore and there is nothing romantic or sexy about chores.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> You’re still acting like a NG.
> 
> In order for your wife to be in a relationship with you it needs to be a sexual relationship. You’re not happy with it and she needs to see that it is a problem for her because if she doesn’t fix it you will not be there.
> 
> ...


Yes I understand that part and the majority of the time that's what I used to do. I was usually up before her and I'd go and do what I wanted.

The difficult part was that you've got a wife that lies there like a dead body when she gets in bed, doesn't initiate, doesn't in any way shape or form let you know she's in the mood.

Tried passive, tried non passive. Suggested scheduled sex - she said she couldn't think anything worse. She was obviously happy with sex 2-3 times a month and could probably take it or leave that sometimes.

I felt that by continuously getting rejected it was making me look weak anyway. If for instance she rejected me when I got in the shower, why should I try again?

Some great advice however for anyone else reading also.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> You need to be thinking about yourself as high value.


But your wife also has to think you are high value. Unfortunately, most of the time this is not true any more.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Have you told her that her inability to meet your needs is a deal breaker for you?

When I started this process I really wanted my wife to initiate or rather I thought I did. As it turns out she has mostly responsive desire, so she needs to be aroused first before she has the desire. She’s also shy when it comes to initiating and basically doesn’t want to.

So I asked that if she is going to be receptive to the idea of sex that day to signal it in some way. Perhaps wear her hair a certain way, put on specific panties, whatever. On those days it is game on when I initiate 100% success rate.

I found that if I’m getting the frequency and quality I want I don’t care if she only jumps my bones a few times a year.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> But your wife also has to think you are high value. Unfortunately, most of the time this is not true any more.


True. This is not a guaranteed process and all the books you read on it ranging from Sex Starved Marriage to NMMNG to Athol Kay all mention that one possible outcome is that it fails.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> Have you told her that her inability to meet your needs is a deal breaker for you?


If you are talking to me ... probably not, but I'm saying it anyway...  many times, but she lied to me and I made wrong choices based on her lies, which turned out not to be her fault entirely. So, it was a lose-lose situation, which we both handled badly. It's a bit complicated. Regretted what I did? No, because I don't think it was meant to be.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Aren't there a slew of unresolved and extremely damaging issues in your marriage?

I don't think you can simply render her lack of desire for sex with you into a regular category.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> Have you told her that her inability to meet your needs is a deal breaker for you?
> 
> When I started this process I really wanted my wife to initiate or rather I thought I did. As it turns out she has mostly responsive desire, so she needs to be aroused first before she has the desire. She’s also shy when it comes to initiating and basically doesn’t want to.
> 
> ...


She sounded a bit like mine. I remember initiating once and getting rejected and told her I was absolutely steaming for her. Her reply - go and masturbate.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

BIL310 said:


> If for instance she rejected me when I got in the shower, why should I try again?


Maybe because you want to do her in the shower?


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Aren't there a slew of unresolved and extremely damaging issues in your marriage?
> 
> I don't think you can do simply render her lack of desire for sex with you into a regular category.


I'm talking about issues with my marriage that were there for a number of years, not just recently. I also see a lot of posts from men who sound like they had the same problem as me. 

What went on after that was a result of these issues and there's been enough said about that elsewhere.

We've now split up anyway.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> Maybe because you want to do her in the shower?


haha simple answer I suppose but what if she'd had rejected me again? Doesn't it just come off as weak? How many times are you supposed to keep doing things (different) and getting rejected?

It's all experience I suppose for my next relationship.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

BIL310 said:


> She sounded a bit like mine. I remember initiating once and getting rejected and told her I was absolutely steaming for her. Her reply - go and masturbate.


Sounds like you got a tough one there. Will she jack you off if she doesn’t want PIV?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Work on yourself, AND file for divorce. It's very rare that anything else works, IMO.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> Sounds like you got a tough one there. Will she jack you off if she doesn’t want PIV?


Nope she wouldn't. Whenever it was time of the month her opinion was well if I'm not getting any you're not. And that went on for years but we had a lot more sex when were younger so it wasn't an issue then.

She'd get her period on a Wednesday morning sometimes and I'd know full well then we'd not be having sex until at 10 days later on the Saturday night. Sometimes then she'd end up drinking too much or we didn't end up having one on that Saturday night and it would gaps of like 14-20 days after her period before sex again.

My needs during that time obviously didn't matter to her. She was just a selfish lover.

Midweek was out of the picture.

I just think a lot of men after getting rejected constantly just withdraw.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Work on yourself, AND file for divorce. It's very rare that anything else works, IMO.


I agree now.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Sounds a lot like the mid part of my marriage. Then I gave up, and she started giving me duty sex (but not starfish) twice a month for 10 years. It's been 3 years since the last sex encounters. She told me she doesn't want a sexual relationship anymore.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

BIL310 said:


> How many times are you supposed to keep doing things (different) and getting rejected?


Yeah you gotta check it. It’s a reprogramming and retraining process for both people.

I put it in her mind constantly. I worked out last week and did legs and was super tired. I came in and wife had on some hot pants and I told her if I wasn’t so tired I’d rip them off and bend her over the couch right there. 

She was I think slightly concerned by it. She’s a good girl and doesn’t get bent over the couch in the living room. The seed is planted and is growing. I didn’t plan on acting then so there is no rejection but I planted the thought that it is going to happen.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah you gotta check it. It’s a reprogramming and retraining process for both people.
> 
> I put it in her mind constantly. I worked out last week and did legs and was super tired. I came in and wife had on some hot pants and I told her if I wasn’t so tired I’d rip them off and bend her over the couch right there.
> 
> She was I think slightly concerned by it. She’s a good girl and doesn’t get bent over the couch in the living room. The seed is planted and is growing. I didn’t plan on acting then so there is no rejection but I planted the thought that it is going to happen.


She does sound somewhat like my ex. My ex was the type who said she doesn't masturbate ever. Wasn't into watching porn or anything like that. 

Good luck though if you ever pull that off!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Personal said:


> I can't speak for others, yet my advice is mostly to dump the withholding spouse ...


That's the solution right there.

@BIL310

No one should be asking for sex, and no one should keep harassing someone for sex after they made it clear they don't want it.
Rejection exists to send you a message yet people don't listen.

Sex should be expected in a relationship yes but if there's none I just don't get why people don't respect each other enough to move on for both their sakes.
It's not bloody rocket science and there's no "alpha" "beta" "nice guy" "bad boy" "180" crap, just simple respect for yourself and your partner and both your futures.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

BIL310 said:


> Nope she wouldn't. *Whenever it was time of the month her opinion was well if I'm not getting any you're not.* And that went on for years but we had a lot more sex when were younger so it wasn't an issue then.


Your problem was your wife didn't like you nor respect you. If she did, you wouldn't be having these issues. Everything falls into place if she wants to ride with you; she doesn't want you to ride with her.

Women are aggressive, yet submissive. They will dominate you if you allow them too, but will submit to you if you are respectful and masculine enough to make her want to.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BIL310 said:


> I've read a lot of posts about people recommending Guys to read No More My Nice Guy and I've read the book a couple of times but I'm struggling with this.
> 
> Usually a guy (or girl sometimes) will post that he's asked his wife for sex and gets nowhere, initiates gets rejected etc still no where so he's told to go in the NMMNG and work on himself - get a new hobby, work out etc.
> 
> ...


Well one thing is you could try to see what puts her in the mood. Considering how much she is not in the mood, I am thinking hoping she wakes up and is in the mood would probably be a stretch which leads me to my point about how emotionally connected are you to your wife. I suggest you also read some books about women's sexual nature, preferably written by a women.


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## Flaka (Jan 18, 2021)

....


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## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

Start working on yourself and stop initiating sex. Sometimes that alone works wonders.

I can also vouch that separation (separate dwellings--if you want to stop short of full divorce) can cause quite a reëvaluation of your attractiveness.

Both options can work like resetting the score. It's odd; must be something in our reptilian brains.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

The only thing that I found that works and is foolproof is to get a divorce and start dating a woman that’s sex positive. Anything short of that will leave you banging your head against the wall.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

BIL310 said:


> I've read a lot of posts about people recommending Guys to read *No More My Nice Guy and I've read the book a couple of times but I'm struggling with this.*
> 
> ....*.If you're in a relationship where your wife never initiates does that mean you no longer initiate?*
> 
> ...


What I usually tell people is that the two books NMMNG and M.W. Davis book the Sex Starved Marriage should be read together. They are really companion books telling you much the same thing from different perspectives. If you study them both you will better understand what you are doing and why. You will better understand if it is not working and then what you need to do next.

You do understand that you are not suppose to initiate, but that seems hard for you. Probably, you need to figure out what you really want first. You can't change your wife. You can only change yourself. However, as you change, she will notice that you are changing. What you can do is change the way you allow yourself to be treated and your reactions to being mistreated. That is the essence of a 180. When you do a 180 you can't predict how your W will react. If maybe for the better or for the worse. It is totally under her control. You can give her positive feedback when she changes in a way you like.

You need to understand that you wife views you as being needy and clingy about sex. She doesn't like that or find it attractive. You also need to understand that she knows you and can read you facial expressions, tone of voice and body language. So she instantly knows it when you ....*to your side of the bed fuming about being rejected yet again. *That is really not sexy and endearing to her. So yes, you do not initiate. But it is much more complex than that. Do you remember the section on Covert Contracts? Good. You have to not initiate because you value yourself, not because of some covert contract in your mind where you say to yourself, if I don't initiate she will have to have sex with me. Covert contracts don't work. It doesn't matter whether the bait is not initiating or doing chores around the house. Neither is going to "buy" you the sex you want.

When I did my "Get a Life" I took up hobbies I stopped early in our marriage. I took up running, mountain climbing, bicycling, and shooting. I lost a bunch of weight and got much more fit. I trained several times a week and most weekends I did outdoor things, like going to 5,10 and 15 K events for training or going with my son mountain climbing. I would invite her, but she mostly never wanted to come and watch or participate. I actually trained for half marathons. I came in first in my age group for one 15K run. I climbed mountains, rappelled down cliffs and biked centuries (which are 100 mile events). I also started dressing better as I was taking better care of myself. 

I felt physical confidence I hadn't felt in years and a deep pride in my accomplishments and who I as becoming. The changes were for me and not part of a covert contract. I was Getting a Life and one that I liked and sex was less important to me. I knew I was changing myself for the better and if my wife wanted to have sex with me, that was fine, if not, I was going to become someone who when I divorced my wife would have no problem in finding a woman to love me.

My wife noticed the physical changes. At parties, some of her women coworkers also notices and commented about what a hot husband she had. She hadn't thought of me in that way in a long time, but she noticed the changes and that I was growing and possibly growing apart from her. She started to feel pride in me and being with me.

She noticed that I was treating her better, but not in a way that was trying to get sex from her. When I gave her a back rub, it was just to giver her a back rub when her back was hurting. I had no expectation for sex. I did other things, but not as covert contracts. They were just nice gestures, favors, or things I wanted to do for her with no quid pro quo anticipated. She didn't believe it at first and tested my sincerity, but by that point I was enjoying my new life and she was no longer as important to me as she once was.

That is when she started to try to talk to me more, to understand what was going on. That is when I suggested that we should see a sex therapist and marriage counselor. At first, she was reluctant and said there was nothing wrong with her and that she was not broken or in need of fixing. I told her that she was not broken or in need of fixing, but our sex life had disappeared and I needed to emotionally deal with that loss and figure out what to do to make myself happy. I then read her a passage from one of David Scharches books. It was something to the effect that every aspect of marriage is about two people with different levels of desire. For some couples one partner has a high desire for having children and the other doesn't.  One partner will have a high desire for watching Football and the other will have no desire for that. One will have a high desire for travel or going to operas and the other will not. In every aspect of marriage people will have different levels of desire for different things. One person will have a high desire for chocolate ice cream for dessert and the only can only stand vanilla ice cream maybe once a month. Neither of those people are broken or need fixing. I really believed what I was telling her. Marriage is about two people understanding each others needs and either working out compromises so they can grow together or if not understanding why they are growing apart. She agreed to see a great nationally known sex therapist, who helped save our marriage.

You may or may not be able to save your marriage. It will be up to you and your wife as to how hard you are each willing to work on saving your marriage and becoming better people. Getting a Life and giving your wife some space so she doesn't feel she needs to keep her guard up against unwanted sex with you are important first steps. You also have to really want the changes your are making in yourself and you need to believe in your long term happiness with or without your W.

Good luck and get the MW Davis book the Sex Starved Marriage to study.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

The answer is if you want sex, just don't get married. I don't know any single guys that complain as much as us married ones. I know I would not get married again.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

BIL310 said:


> So my question is, if you're a man or woman in this situation do you completely stop initiating sex and get on with your life as room mates for the time being? Working out, and becoming more independent to make you a better person ?


NMMNG is an excellent book. It does suffer from people sometimes taking just a few lines from it, or sometimes even just the title, and ignoring the rest. The way to use it is to read it once through, and consider whether you are in fact a "NG" in the way Glover uses the term. Not every man is. It's basically codependence, explained for men. (Glover recently said this).

If you do fit the pattern, then work systematically through the breaking free activities, writing down the answers, and sharing them with a safe person. You can use the NMMNG support site as a place to post your answers, or use a safe male friend.

One thing to know is that it's normal and okay in relationships for one parner to do all the initiating. Many couples end up that way; don't take it as a personal insult. Don't take _anything _as a personal insult.

As to your specific question, while you are working on your nice guyness (which can include working out but isn't mainly about that, it's about acting less codependent) the main thing is to avoid the appearance of sulking. You can keep initiating, if it sometimes works, and don't sulk when it doesn't. Or, stop initiating, talk about that, and continue to show that you find her desirable (if you do. If you don't actually find her desirable, that's a whole different problem.) Don't try to do anything covertly. The whole NG thing is like: _how can I do this without her knowing I'm doing it?_ Tell her what's going on and see what happens.

I know in your case this may be a retrospective question, as you said "estranged", but I write the above for any so called "nice guy" (ie codependent man) who may happen to read this.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> That's the solution right there.
> 
> @BIL310
> 
> ...


It wasn't like she was refraining from sex all the time, it was just always on her terms and 2/3 times a month.

I see some people on here saying they have sex 2-3 times a year, I'd have been out the door 10 years ago if that was the case.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

Laurentium said:


> NMMNG is an excellent book. It does suffer from people sometimes taking just a few lines from it, or sometimes even just the title, and ignoring the rest. The way to use it is to read it once through, and consider whether you are in fact a "NG" in the way Glover uses the term. Not every man is. It's basically codependence, explained for men. (Glover recently said this).
> 
> If you do fit the pattern, then work systematically through the breaking free activities, writing down the answers, and sharing them with a safe person. You can use the NMMNG support site as a place to post your answers, or use a safe male friend.
> 
> ...


I had no real issue with the initiating, it was more the fact that I'd be regularly turned down. There's been some great points on here about being passive and non passive which I believe I tried both ways. 

I think part of our issues stemmed from the fact my estranged wife has a very stressful job, she's manages people in Finance and through the working week Monday to Friday is like a coiled spring. She's usually totally different during the weekend or on holidays. I think because of this role she's controlling in other aspects of our household.

Even her own Mum used to say to her she's needs to lighten up and her Father says she's generally got a face like she's sucked on a lemon and she's always scowling.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

My sex life was everyday, then twice a week, then once a week then, then twice a month (duty sex). Although I wanted more, after 25 years you kind of resign yourself to a dull sex life. I would never stay with 2 times/year. That's pointless. I'd rather abstain.

The problem with the books mentioned is that they imply that there is still hope, i.e. you can still turn your partner around. In most cases, this is not true, because when you get to the stage of reading books, it's too late, IMO.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

Laurentium said:


> NMMNG is an excellent book. It does suffer from people sometimes taking just a few lines from it, or sometimes even just the title, and ignoring the rest. The way to use it is to read it once through, and consider whether you are in fact a "NG" in the way Glover uses the term. Not every man is. It's basically codependence, explained for men. (Glover recently said this).
> 
> If you do fit the pattern, then work systematically through the breaking free activities, writing down the answers, and sharing them with a safe person. You can use the NMMNG support site as a place to post your answers, or use a safe male friend.
> 
> ...


See this is what I struggled with. On one hand people say your wife viewed you as needy and clingy etc yet on the other people are saying you should still initiate but don't get sulky if rejected?

If I hold myself to a high value doesn't continuing to initiate and be rejected have the opposite effect and make myself needy etc?

Let's say this Saturday we'd usually enjoy a few drinks and then afterwards I'd normally initiate and the majority of times we'd end up having sex. My wife would be expecting me to initiate. Now let's say I just get in bed, kiss and cuddle and stop. 

Knowing her like I did, she'd turn over in the bed to her side and be upset but would not say anything at the time. She'd then be moody for about 3 days afterwards. Then at some point it would be brought up and we'd probably have had an argument about it. 

Everything on her terms.

Maybe I should have sat her down and said I'm sick of getting rejected so I'm no longer initiating sex. I'm getting on with other activities and whenever you're in the mood let me know - otherwise we'll leave it at that.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BIL310 said:


> Everything on her terms.
> 
> Maybe I should have sat her down and said I'm sick of getting rejected so I'm no longer initiating sex. I'm getting on with other activities and whenever you're in the mood let me know - otherwise we'll leave it at that.


yes, I told my wife to tell me when she wanted sex, and it would never happen. This is because, apparently, she was feeling she HAD to have sex to keep the quiet and she hated that. She felt forced to do it. Basically, it's a no-win situation. Once your wife feels she HAS to do it, that's it.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

I have read the book, I was a nice guy, however after a victim puke as the book terms it. I figured it out on my own. I started living for me and doing what I wanted. 

It worked, im not a ****, I do my share but I dont ask permission to do anything now. I just inform my wife and offer to let her join in if its appropriate.

She started to feel left out and needy, but I didn't buckle, I spend my time how I want to, and if she wants in fine, if not I don't give it a second thought. 

Now if long term this means we split up, that will be hard. But I know I can get through it. I like this new me. Which really is the whole point of the book.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

BIL310 said:


> If I hold myself to a high value doesn't continuing to initiate and be rejected have the opposite effect and make myself needy etc?


Not in my opinion. "Needy" doesn't mean "having needs". Everyone has needs. "Needy" means being whiny about it, or feeling entitled to have a specific other person meet your needs.



> Now let's say I just get in bed, kiss and cuddle and stop.
> Knowing her like I did, she'd turn over in the bed to her side and be upset but would not say anything at the time. She'd then be moody for about 3 days afterwards. Then at some point it would be brought up and we'd probably have had an argument about it.


Yes, because your "kiss cuddle and stop" is inauthentic and manipulative. It's not what you _really_ want.



> Maybe I should have sat her down and said I'm sick of getting rejected so I'm no longer initiating sex. I'm getting on with other activities and whenever you're in the mood let me know - otherwise we'll leave it at that.


I doubt if that would produce a good outcome. Actually, *that* sounds "needy" to me.

The big problem is when a wife never initiates, wants her husband to be the initiator, but also resents him if he initiates when she doesn't feel like it. As if he should be able to read her mind. Now of course, maybe he could "read her mind" a little by thinking back over _"how have the last couple of days been between us?"_ But once asking and not asking both become sources of resentment, you're kind of done.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> yes, I told my wife to tell me when she wanted sex, and it would never happen. This is because, apparently, she was feeling she HAD to have sex to keep the quiet and she hated that. She felt forced to do it. Basically, it's a no-win situation. Once your wife feels she HAS to do it, that's it.


Yeah, that is absolutely a no-win situation.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BIL310 said:


> I'm talking about issues with my marriage that were there for a number of years, not just recently. I also see a lot of posts from men who sound like they had the same problem as me.
> 
> What went on after that was a result of these issues and there's been enough said about that elsewhere.
> 
> *We've now split up anyway.*


I very rarely say this, but I'm happy and hopeful for you because of this!!

I like the point of this thread, but I hope you know for sure that YOU were not really the problem - I don't believe there was much you could ever do to get your wife to care about YOU and YOUR needs at all, and that's just not a true marriage or relationship. You are right to leave and find someone better for you if you ever want a chance to be happy!


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Laurentium said:


> Not in my opinion. "Needy" doesn't mean "having needs". Everyone has needs. "Needy" means being whiny about it, or feeling entitled to have a specific other person meet your needs.
> 
> 
> Yes, because your "kiss cuddle and stop" is inauthentic and manipulative. It's not what you _really_ want.
> ...


Aren't married people entitled to have their partner (a specific other person) meet their sexual needs?

Unless it's an open marriage, that IS the only _specific other person_ in the world they can have sexual contact with.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> I very rarely say this, but I'm happy and hopeful for you because of this!!
> 
> I like the point of this thread, but I hope you know for sure that YOU were not really the problem - I don't believe there was much you could ever do to get your wife to care about YOU and YOUR needs at all, and that's just not a true marriage or relationship. You are right to leave and find someone better for you if you ever want a chance to be happy!


Thanks Lisa, I appreciate that!

Yes i know that, just trying to fill in the blanks to see where maybe I did go wrong so I don't make the same mistakes in future.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Aren't married people entitled to have their partner (a specific other person) meet their sexual needs?


Yeah, good point. I'd have to say, not on any one occasion. But yes, if you've entered into an agreement of monogamy, then it might be relationship-ending if one partner unilaterally declares that sex is over.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Aren't married people entitled to have their partner (a specific other person) meet their sexual needs?
> 
> Unless it's an open marriage, that IS the only _specific other person_ in the world they can have sexual contact with.


Absolutely correct and one @LisaDiane has brought up before.

In my instance for many years, I was told to stop talking about it. Maybe if I didn't talk so much about it it would happen more. Guess what, didn't talk about it and nothing changed.

I think I'm quite an intelligent person but I'm still so confused.

Keep initiating and hope you don't get rejected.
Stop initiating because it's needy.
Don't stop initiating because it's covert because you don't really want to not have sex.
Get on with your life and do your own thing.
Get on with your life and don't initiate.
Get on with your life and wait her to initiate.
Stop talking about it
Don't bottle it up and talk about it.
Do more for her and hope you'll be rewarded.

My head hurts. What's wrong with a married couple looking after each others sexual needs to make sure both are happy.

If i want to go to a certain place and my wife doesn't, I can go on my own.
If i want to eat Mcdonalds and my wife wants KFC, we can have what we want.
If I want more sex and she doesn't and isn't willing to compromise my only option is to suffer in silence, leave or get it somewhere else. It's a massive issue. 

And it can literally be summed up by saying Your sexual needs don't matter to me. And that's not what a marriage is about.

She even told me to go and take care of myself one night after being rejected again -"you've got hands haven't you".


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

BIL310 said:


> It wasn't like she was refraining from sex all the time, it was just always on her terms and 2/3 times a month.
> 
> I see some people on here saying they have sex 2-3 times a year, I'd have been out the door 10 years ago if that was the case.


Don’t ever accept less because their are others on this site that accept less. The ‘misery loves company’ notion won’t get you past this. It won’t make you feel any better the next time she turns you down. You are the only one that can get yourself unstuck.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BIL310 said:


> She even told me to go and take care of myself one night after being rejected again -"you've got hands haven't you".


Ouch... even my wife never told me that... but then she didn't speak much to me...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

moco82 said:


> It's odd; must be something in our reptilian brains.


Nothing odd about it. A low drive or complacent spouse - especially - will not bother having sex much if he or she doesn't feel like it. Living your own life and maybe getting your own place says "you can put more work into this relationship or we can end it, but you're not getting me on the cheap".


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

BIL310 said:


> She even told me to go and take care of myself one night after being rejected again -"you've got hands haven't you".


In that case, to me, the rudeness and hostility is more of a problem than the no sex.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

BIL310 said:


> I think I'm quite an intelligent person but I'm still so confused.


Let me have a bat at some of these.

_Keep initiating and hope you don't get rejected. - _Wrong - hope is not a method

_Stop initiating because it's needy. _- Wrong - I said before, needing sex is *not* "needy". (And I think Livvie's point reinforces that.)

_Don't stop initiating because it's covert because you don't really want to not have sex_. - I think I agree with that (if I unscrambled it correctly)

_Get on with your life and do your own thing_. - Yes

_Get on with your life and don't initiate. 
Get on with your life and wait her to initiate_. No to those. You could wait for ever.

_Stop talking about it_. - I agree, but talk about things other than "it", don't go silent.
_Don't bottle it up and talk about it_. - No
_Do more for her and hope you'll be rewarded_. See my earlier remark about "hope".

Just my ten cents


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Laurentium said:


> Yeah, good point. I'd have to say, not on any one occasion. But yes, if you've entered into an agreement of monogamy, then it might be relationship-ending if one partner unilaterally declares that sex is over.


I would put forth that it IS and probably SHOULD be relationship-ending.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

BIL310 said:


> Stop initiating because it's needy.


So let me tell you the rule I _would_ make: don't initiate unless you actually feel lust for _this_ woman at _this_ time. Not because you haven't got off for a few days, or because you feel you ought to, or to make a point. A lot of problems are caused when men initiate at a moment when they don't really feel attracted to the woman.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> The point being that a sexual relationship needs to be kept on at least a low simmer. Get your spouse to think about sex daily rather than just when you crawl into bed on a Saturday night and start with the fondling. Marriage is a sexual relationship so keep it sexual.


Absolutely!

Absent applying that advice throughout a sexual relationship, one should expect the sexual part of a sexual relationship to whither and die.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> You can't change your wife. You can only change yourself. However, as you change, she will notice that you are changing. What you can do is change the way you allow yourself to be treated and your reactions to being mistreated. That is the essence of a 180. When you do a 180 you can't predict how your W will react. If maybe for the better or for the worse. It is totally under her control. You can give her positive feedback when she changes in a way you like.
> 
> You need to understand that you wife views you as being needy and clingy about sex. She doesn't like that or find it attractive. You also need to understand that she knows you and can read you facial expressions, tone of voice and body language. So she instantly knows it when you ....*to your side of the bed fuming about being rejected yet again. *That is really not sexy and endearing to her. So yes, you do not initiate. But it is much more complex than that. Do you remember the section on Covert Contracts? Good. You have to not initiate because you value yourself, not because of some covert contract in your mind where you say to yourself, if I don't initiate she will have to have sex with me. Covert contracts don't work. It doesn't matter whether the bait is not initiating or doing chores around the house. Neither is going to "buy" you the sex you want.
> 
> ...


Same here, a switch flipped in me and my wife was no longer the prize i felt i could not obtain. We had sex more when her hormones were crazy, usually during her period. How do you think it feels when you feel like the only time she wants sex with you is while she is on period. 

I stopped being the beta male that i learned from my dad's relationship with mom. I dropped #50 in 7 weeks and buffed up working out. I was not constantly chasing her fpr sexual intimacy. My mind set was she either comes around or i am going to hit the ground running when im out of this marriage. My wife **** a brick, she said later she thought i was already gone. Her last hubby was a serial cheater. I started being the man in the home, not just the male. 24 yrs and our marriage is like honeymoon stage all over again. We have sex almost nightly unless one of us is ill or hurt. If we missed a couple nights we may go 2-3× next time.

I would still initiate earlier in day, she rejects you go do something you want to. Dont lay there sulking, i places her at a higher value than you. Makes you look whiney. Act like the rejection is no skin off your back, you can take it or leave it. Work on yourself and prepare for ejection and a better life with a good woman that will gladly love you.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

Divinely Favored said:


> Same here, a switch flipped in me and my wife was no longer the prize i felt i could not obtain. We had sex more when her hormones were crazy, usually during her period. How do you think it feels when you feel like the only time she wants sex with you is while she is on period.
> 
> I stopped being the beta male that i learned from my dad's relationship with mom. I dropped #50 in 7 weeks and buffed up working out. I was not constantly chasing her fpr sexual intimacy. My mind set was she either comes around or i am going to hit the ground running when im out of this marriage. My wife **** a brick, she said later she thought i was already gone. Her last hubby was a serial cheater. I started being the man in the home, not just the male. 24 yrs and our marriage is like honeymoon stage all over again. We have sex almost nightly unless one of us is ill or hurt. If we missed a couple nights we may go 2-3× next time.
> 
> I would still initiate earlier in day, she rejects you go do something you want to. Dont lay there sulking, i places her at a higher value than you. Makes you look whiney. Act like the rejection is no skin off your back, you can take it or leave it. Work on yourself and prepare for ejection and a better life with a good woman that will gladly love you.


Thanks, what do you mean by started being a man in the home?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

BIL310 said:


> Thanks, what do you mean by started being a man in the home?


Aking decisions. Being the leader. Stop deferring to her. Minor ex. Just like going out to eat, if she says where dont say I dont care, where ever you do. Do not defer, make the decision, even if you dont care, make the decision.

Do not take crap from her. Dont back down when she gets mad, if you did not do something wrong, DO NOT APOLOGIZE for it.

My wife is 5'03" and i am 6'05", both of our kids are bigger than her, my 15yr old is bigger than me. She always felt like she had to get loud to be heard. Once she was upset and griping loudly about something. I said held up my hand to stop her and said sternly "This conversation is over until you can speak to me in a civilized tone" and walked away and went outside to do something.

Put your foot down on something and stand firm. Dont let her back you down. Dont let her rattle your cage, she may but do not show it.

My wife pushed me to stand up to her. She wanted me to. Women are stressed if they are running the ship, they may say otherwise but they do not handle the stress well. If the woman is making the big decisions and it goes wrong, it is on her due to her decisions. She knows that and it stresses her out if a decision she makes does harm to the family.

My wife does the finances but i get involved. She comes to me now with decisions. She tells me where we are and here is the options. I do not say what ever you think. I make the decision what i want her to do. If it goes bad we are in the same boat but we run aground because of MY decisions.

My wife is very red pill. She was pushing me to step up and be the man she knew i could be. She once said, "I am woman and women are ruled by emotions. I need you to stand firm and not change you because of how i am acting. I am like a boat in the storm, and you are my lighthouse, I get my bearings from you. If you change your location to suit me then we will both be lost. I need you to stand firm"

Also thing about a hunter with a bird dog. You are walking through the field and periodically the dog looks up to see where their master is and get tgeir bearings in relation to them. No im not calling my wife a dog....but she is my best friend. In not her master...but i am Big Daddy and her go to person for answers to what she does not know and needs guidance from.

If you have kids, enforce the rules. Dont let them run over you.

Basically make decisions.
Stand your ground on those decisions.
Do not be swayed from her emotional state.
Take responsibility, especially if you make a wrong decision.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Divinely Favored said:


> My wife is 5'03" and i am 6'05", both of our kids are bigger than her, my 15yr old is bigger than me.


Holy crap, you are TALL -- my son is 6'4", and looks like a mountain to me (I'm 5'0")!!! He was my height when he was 9yrs old! Lol!!

I don't need to get loud though...I have a LOOK...and everyone scrambles...Lol!!


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

There is something to be said for just deciding things. One thing I used to do which pissed my wife off is I would ask “do you want A or B?” But I slightly preferred A. When she said B I would act disappointed and then we’d always do A. She would get mad wondering why I even asked, which is a fair point. I was trying to give her the illusion of choice.

So I stopped asking unless I really don’t care and then I just go with whatever she picks. If she doesn’t pick or takes too long then I quickly choose and let her know.

Most recently this has become a problem ordering lunch during the week. We only order from maybe 4 places and my favorite is her least favorite. So when I want it there is no choice for her I don’t even ask. Otherwise I go with her pick without question. Much happier!


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BIL310 said:


> Absolutely correct and one @LisaDiane has brought up before.
> 
> In my instance for many years, I was told to stop talking about it. Maybe if I didn't talk so much about it it would happen more. Guess what, didn't talk about it and nothing changed.
> 
> ...


From what I have gathered from the NMMNG discussions is you do what you feel like doing but don't do or not do something hoping for a specific response from her. So If you feel like having sex then initiate, if she rejects she rejects you can't control that, if you feel like doing something nice for her do it because you feel like doing it not to get a reward from her. 

I think the idea is you focus on doing what's best for you, become the best version of you you can be, not to win her over or make her want you more but just for you. She will either respond positively or not in either scenario you're better off as an individual.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

Divinely Favored said:


> Aking decisions. Being the leader. Stop deferring to her. Minor ex. Just like going out to eat, if she says where dont say I dont care, where ever you do. Do not defer, make the decision, even if you dont care, make the decision.
> 
> Do not take crap from her. Dont back down when she gets mad, if you did not do something wrong, DO NOT APOLOGIZE for it.
> 
> ...


This is definitely where I did go wrong.

My wife is an accountant so she handles all the finances of the house, especially since I had money issues with my business for the last couple of years.

Eating out, takeways, where we went on holiday, where we went for a walk - I'd always just go with the flow and say where do you fancy first? Rather than just saying I've booked here for a meal tonight, we're going at 8pm etc.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I hear a lot of guys on here talking about their wives don't initiate. I wonder exactly what they are considering initiating, because most women I know, even though they're not what I would call the aggressive ones who would initiate, would certainly find it natural to put their arm around a man while he's sleeping and see if he's stirable. What the more timid mostly wouldn't be comfortable doing is asking for sex or just grabbing his junk. I mean, what is initiating to you guys? Are you waiting for some woman to grab your junk and do something overt? What does it mean to you when you are going or coming from work and they give you an affectionate kiss? 

It seems like men expect more initiation than ever before, and I can't help wonder if that isn't from watching porn, where the woman ends up there with them and puts the moves on them, gets aggressive. I'm not saying that never happens, but it's more likely to happen during dating than marriage. 

As for masturbating in the OP's ex-situation, I think that's what I would do. I would just take care of it and see if she started ever noticing, and carry on the plan of just doing your own thing without planning things with her. People get comfortable, and that sometimes might make someone wake up a little. But who knows how long it would take. 

It's a little like the time I tested one of my old friends, because it was always me just initiating phone calls and getting together and I started to resent it. So I just stopped to see how long it would take her to miss me or if she wasn't really interested in being friends or what. It took her six months to notice. But she did still want to be friends. And I bet she NEVER initiates with her boyfriend. She's a follower.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BIL310 said:


> This is definitely where I did go wrong.
> 
> My wife is an accountant so she handles all the finances of the house, especially since I had money issues with my business for the last couple of years.
> 
> Eating out, takeways, where we went on holiday, where we went for a walk - I'd always just go with the flow and say where do you fancy first? Rather than just saying I've booked here for a meal tonight, we're going at 8pm etc.


But that isn't necessarily anything that changed how your wife responded to you - you may have just ended up divorced sooner. All those methods work to bring women who are receptive to that type of man around. I'm not sure, based on the things you've posted before about her, that your wife would have had more respect for you (and more sex with you) if you had been that way with her. She sounds controlling and a little cold-hearted -- women like that are very self-centered, and generally steer clear of men who are stronger, which is GOOD for those men!! Lol!

So be cautious blaming yourself for anything you did or didn't do with her. I believe most likely, she is just not focused on caring about anyone's needs except her own. I don't hear alot of empathy in how she treats you. Relationships with people like her just don't work long-term, unless the partners they are with are doormats.

It's like with my stbx -- there's a whole list of ways I could have tried to entice him to care about me...and I tried ALOT of them! But ultimately nothing I did would penetrate his selfishness, and when I decided I was tired of trying to coerce him into caring about me, and started to push back a little (a modified 180), EVERYTHING broke down, and he couldn't stand to be with a woman who had needs and expected them to be honored and met.
If I had been a different woman with more expectations from the start, we never would have married in the first place.

And I think that may be how it would have been with YOUR wife as well.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I mean, what is initiating to you guys? Are you waiting for some woman to grab your junk and do something overt?


I consider initiation to be action started by her. For example I’d say the last time my wife initiated was in October 2020. She grabbed me in the kitchen and started making out and led me to the bedroom. I was dumbfounded by it and was like what happened and she said she was riled up and wanted to go.

An invitation is similar to an initiation. Like “if you were to do it I would go along with it enthusiastically” is pretty damn close but it’s not quite the same because without me doing anything nothing happens.

I have decided that the difference really isn’t important to me. For my sense of feeling wanted the invitation is enough.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

CCP, Dragging you to the bedroom is well beyond "initiating," so kudos!

I wonder what ever happened to women wearing something a little sexy to bed to signal they were in the mood when they were open to romance. I know everyone is different. Like one friend of mine never wears anything. Don't know how she stands it, and also that takes away one way of signaling. Maybe she's "open all hours." I don't know. 

I would think anyone wearing comfy pants and tops or pajamas is a signal they are not interested, but I'm sure there are exceptions (super cold night). I'd be on the lookout for wife wearing something new or sexy to bed. 

During this conversation I remember initiating, but can't remember the situation, and the guy's eyes got real big and he said, NOW?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

My wife has one of my old sweatshirts that I call her “no” shirt. If she wears that it means buzz off.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Sometimes I think about sex it's better to communicate in ways like that than get all off in the weeds talking about it.


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## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

I bought the book and read it and found it’s not about me. Going to give this copy to my oppressed nephew.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Yeah, not everyone fits that pattern


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I hear a lot of guys on here talking about their wives don't initiate. I wonder exactly what they are considering initiating, because most women I know, even though they're not what I would call the aggressive ones who would initiate, would certainly find it natural to put their arm around a man while he's sleeping and see if he's stirable.


The last time my stbx initiated she told me in bed I'm no longer on my period for your information.

I can't even remember when that was. Sometimes she used to put her head on my chest etc when lying in bed but it certainly wasn't initiating although that was still nice and welcomed as part of a normal marriage dynamic.

I think the last time before that was when we were about 19 (20 years ago) and we we're in a bar and she said let's go home and I said already why? And she whispered in my ear - sex. What a time to be alive that was.

Other than that she'd get in bed and lie there like a dead body. She'd even get undressed, then put her pj's or nightie on then get in bed knowing that I was going to initiate (as it was a Saturday night after drinks) and we'd end up having sex.

I asked her once why do you get changed knowing full well we're going to have sex and she said I don't know, I just do. She also told me she found oral sex disgusting although I'd get the odd one or two each year when she'd had about 10 drinks.

It's not even the initiation that bothered me, it was more the fact that I'd be turned down more times than not. I remember years ago she was in her friends house with a group of other girls and she invited me down for sex upstairs in the spare room. Where did it all go wrong! ha.

I'm still that person from back then when it comes to sex with her, unfortunately she wasn't. Hence the issues.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

One of the worst things to come out of the sexual relationship with my wife is performance anxiety.

As we’d only have sex after drinking or the following morning I’d sometimes experience brewers droop. (Erection trouble). This would be incredibly frustrating because I’d now missed my chance for at least another week.

My wife would also be very impatient and not understandable about the issue. If I didn’t stand to attention quickly she’d say I can’t be bothered with this which over time would just make the anxiety worse.

So I started taking viagra to make sure this didn’t happen. Sometimes I ended up taking and she turned me down which left me lying there pitching my tent with it.

I hope that doesn’t carry over into my next relationship. Im only 39 for gods sake.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Sorry to be blunt... if I remember correctly, you were found in a hotel room in your underpants with a young girl... I'm surprised your wife wants to have sex with you at all. You are not happy and you are 39. I'm aware you have young children, but this is a farce, not a marriage.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> Sorry to be blunt... if I remember correctly, you were found in a hotel room in your underpants with a young girl... I'm surprised your wife wants to have sex with you at all. You are not happy and you are 39. I'm aware you have young children, but this is a farce, not a marriage.


the issues I’m referring to go back before that time.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BIL310 said:


> the issues I’m referring to go back before that time.


Apologies, you did say that your marriage was dead in the water, my bad.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BIL310 said:


> One of the worst things to come out of the sexual relationship with my wife is performance anxiety.
> 
> As we’d only have sex after drinking or the following morning I’d sometimes experience brewers droop. (Erection trouble). This would be incredibly frustrating because I’d now missed my chance for at least another week.
> 
> ...


I really doubt it will carry over - all it will take is for you to have a few exciting encounters with women who are attracted to you and turned on by your attention for you to get back to being your REAL sexual self.

And even if it starts happening as you get older, there are plenty of women who aren't phased by that at all, and who see it as an exciting opportunity to try new sexual things to keep you both satisfied!!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BIL310 said:


> The last time my stbx initiated she told me in bed I'm no longer on my period for your information.
> 
> I can't even remember when that was. Sometimes she used to put her head on my chest etc when lying in bed but it certainly wasn't initiating although that was still nice and welcomed as part of a normal marriage dynamic.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, when someone finds one particular thing disgusting, it's best to never ask them for it. Maybe they will do it once in awhile on their own, but knowing you want it and they don't want it, that is one big reason why women may shut down initiating or sex in general, just to avoid that scenario.

When I was dating, every guy wanted oral, and I didn't enjoy it, but being young and wanting to please, I did it anyway, and then I got this one boyfriend who never once asked for oral, and it just made sex so much more relaxing and nice for me.

It made me gag if anyone shot in my mouth, so I started telling partners not to. Oral can be alright with some guys, but not others. I've encountered a few reasons that made it unpleasant, but with certain guys, it was okay. Odor and taste are two big factors, and not sure that's fully within a man's control. I've also encountered someone who needed to pluck, and that was really gagworthy and a "never again" situation.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BIL310 said:


> One of the worst things to come out of the sexual relationship with my wife is performance anxiety.
> 
> As we’d only have sex after drinking or the following morning I’d sometimes experience brewers droop. (Erection trouble). This would be incredibly frustrating because I’d now missed my chance for at least another week.
> 
> ...


Drinking can catch up with you as you get older, as you now are. I never encountered problems doing it with drunk guys until I did one who had reached 40. It just catches up with you and you have to stop drinking like that and see if you can get right again.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I haven’t had ED problems from drinking but instead sensitivity issues. Unless your partner likes getting plowed until they’re sore it’s not good. Fortunately that is an easy fix; can either stop drinking so much or stop trying to have sex when that is going to happen. I kind of did both and things have been better.

My wife doesn’t like oral either (fluids) but since I tried flavored condoms she turned into an oral demon. Originally I bought a pack of 8. After using those I bought 100 just because it was a better deal. I called it the “wishful thinking pack”. Well impressive progress has been made such that I may need to rename it.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

BIL310 said:


> I think I'm quite an intelligent person but I'm still so confused.
> 
> Keep initiating and hope you don't get rejected.
> Stop initiating because it's needy.
> ...


Initiating isn't needy, but being upset or clingy after rejection is.

"Stop initiating because it's covert because you don't really want to not have sex".:

The idea isn't that you stop initiating because you want to get a reaction from them. It's about not initiating because, even though you want sex, you aren't going to attempt sex with someone you know doesn't want to have sex with you. It's about having some pride and self respect and not being reduced to a supplicant begging for scraps of affection and desire. It's about YOU, not getting a reaction from someone else.

"Get on with your life and don't initiate. Get on with your life and do your own thing.
Get on with your life and wait her to initiate."

Yes. Get on with your life. Reduce their importance. Don't depend on them to amuse you, entertain you, give you attention, or anything else. Live your life, do your thing, and if the LL spouse initiates, then take it or leave it as you choose. If not, it doesn't matter because you're living your best life.

"Stop talking about it
Don't bottle it up and talk about it."

Talk about it, certainly, but don't talk it to death. Unless your spouse has legit cognitive difficulties or you are very bad at clear communication, they know! So, yes, have a few discussions. Make your feelings and the consequences of being neglected clear, and then stop talking about it. Once they know there is no point to going on and on. Say it. Make sure it's clear. Then shut up and either make a change or accept your lot.

"Do more for her and hope you'll be rewarded."

This is called "choreplay". It generally fails.
For those who do jack and shyte around the house, don't help with the kids, spend their time gaming or on their phones or hanging with friends, yes, do more and maybe your spouse will have the energy and inclination to have sex. But, for the love of God, do not become the freaking maid, babysitter, ATM. Help. Do a share. Don't become a servant. No one wants to screw the butler.



BIL310 said:


> This is definitely where I did go wrong.
> 
> My wife is an accountant so she handles all the finances of the house, especially since I had money issues with my business for the last couple of years.


I handle all the finances and I have no problem doing it. It certainly doesn't make my husband any less attractive to me.
Money issues is too vague. Did you take personal funds to support a failing business? Did you lie and conceal debt? If so, this is a HUGE deal. Financial infidelity can kill desire stone dead. Many women don't want sex if they don't feel secure. Financial infidelity means insecurity. When your spouse commits financial infidelity it damages trust, makes them feel insecure, and causes stress. Not to mention any emotional reaction.



BIL310 said:


> Eating out, takeways, where we went on holiday, where we went for a walk - I'd always just go with the flow and say where do you fancy first? Rather than just saying I've booked here for a meal tonight, we're going at 8pm etc.


Men who can't make a decision and have no opinion are as exciting as dirty dishwater. Men who do not have wants and opinions are not only dull, but they can also appear weak and spineless. Dull, weak, men are not hot items sexually.



BIL310 said:


> As we’d only have sex after drinking or the following morning I’d sometimes experience brewers droop. (Erection trouble). This would be incredibly frustrating because I’d now missed my chance for at least another week.
> 
> My wife would also be very impatient and not understandable about the issue.


An unreliable penis can sometimes make a woman just chuck the whole idea of sex altogether. Certainly, a hard penis isn't required for sex. Hands, mouth, and toys can be used. But, for some women only the penis will do. Why get yourself all worked up if nothing is going to happen? Best to just put sex in a box, lock it in a closet, forget it's there, and get on with the day.




In Absentia said:


> Sorry to be blunt... if I remember correctly, you were found in a hotel room in your underpants with a young girl... I'm surprised your wife wants to have sex with you at all. You are not happy and you are 39. I'm aware you have young children, but this is a farce, not a marriage.





BIL310 said:


> the issues I’m referring to go back before that time.


Well, if the issues developed before then the hotel incident was probably the point at which repair was not an option.

I mean, just going by what you said here, you committed financial infidelity, you got caught physically with another female in a compromising position, you're a dull "yes man", and sometimes your penis don't work. From her point of view, what's appealing about that?!?!?

If this is about not making the same mistakes in your next relationship you need to start with being open, honest, more assertive, less conflict avoidant, etc. when it comes to your wants and needs. Even if it's just where you get dinner. You'll also need to be financially reliable and make better financial decisions. Operating a business is great, but if you're in trouble it cannot be allowed to affect your personal finances. And, for the love of all that is good and Holy, if you're in a monogamous relationship either end it or don't go to hotel rooms with women who aren't your partner.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

Thanks for your reply. Much to take on board.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

These posts come up often.
2 choices:
live with it
get out


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I hear a lot of guys on here talking about their wives don't initiate. I wonder exactly what they are considering initiating, because most women I know, even though they're not what I would call the aggressive ones who would initiate, would certainly find it natural to put their arm around a man while he's sleeping and see if he's stirable. What the more timid mostly wouldn't be comfortable doing is asking for sex or just grabbing his junk. I mean, what is initiating to you guys? Are you waiting for some woman to grab your junk and do something overt? What does it mean to you when you are going or coming from work and they give you an affectionate kiss?
> 
> It seems like men expect more initiation than ever before, and I can't help wonder if that isn't from watching porn, where the woman ends up there with them and puts the moves on them, gets aggressive. I'm not saying that never happens, but it's more likely to happen during dating than marriage.
> 
> ...


For my wife, she may come straight out and grab me or it may be a sexy look or remark she gives me. Sometimes it is being in bed to sleep and spooning. She starts wiggling that booty slightly and it is ON! On just has to tune in to their partners cues. If she knows im tired that is her way of saying "I'm game if you are."


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

BIL310 said:


> One of the worst things to come out of the sexual relationship with my wife is performance anxiety.
> 
> As we’d only have sex after drinking or the following morning I’d sometimes experience brewers droop. (Erection trouble). This would be incredibly frustrating because I’d now missed my chance for at least another week.
> 
> ...


Simple fix. Quit drinking that estrogen brew. Rule #1 in bodybuilding is do not drink beer. It is like drinking soy milk. You might as well be taking estrogen pills. Beer and soy products damage testosterone levels. Men should not drink either. It will make you a girly mon(said with an accent)

For the love of God do not let your male babys or children drink soy milk.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Divinely Favored said:


> ........I was not constantly chasing her fpr sexual intimacy. My mind set was she either comes around or i am going to hit the ground running when im out of this marriage. My wife **** a brick, she said later she thought i was already gone. ......
> 
> I would still initiate earlier in day, she rejects you go do something you want to. Dont lay there sulking, i places her at a higher value than you. Makes you look whiney. Act like the rejection is no skin off your back, you can take it or leave it. Work on yourself and prepare for ejection and a better life with a good woman that will gladly love you.


Well said. As Glover likes to point out most men are raised by women authority figures to please women. Women like to control those kind of men, but they don't love and sexually desire them. He aslo says that there are few male mentors for boys that teach them how to act manly. 

For me, Getting a Life was about becoming an integrated man who did masculine things for myself and my own pride. It was about loosing my dependence upon a woman's approval, whether it was a mother, teacher, or wife.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Divinely Favored said:


> Rule #1 in bodybuilding is do not drink beer. It is like drinking soy milk. You might as well be taking estrogen pills. Beer and soy products damage testosterone levels. Men should not drink either.


Honestly, given the choice between beer and sex .... I'm not sure.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Laurentium said:


> Honestly, given the choice between beer and sex .... I'm not sure.


I preferred wine or the mason jar. Or Meyers black rum and coke.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

So when you’re doing a 180 and beginning to work on yourself what do you do in these situations?

You go on regular walks with your partner do you now stop doing that and go on your own?

Your partner hugs you in bed but constantly turns you down when you initiate, and I don’t mean every time they hug you. I mean in general they turn you down when you try. Do you stop initiating?

If both answers are yes what should your answer be when your partner says you haven’t come near me, you don’t even go on walks anymore?

Thanks.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

BIL310 said:


> You go on regular walks with your partner do you now stop doing that and go on your own?


That depends, do you want to go on a walk with her at that time because it is what you’re doing anyway or is it she’s going on a walk and you’re coming with? Do you enjoy it? Are you doing it for another reason than the walk itself? Would it be easier for you to go at a different time?



BIL310 said:


> Your partner hugs you in bed but constantly turns you down when you initiate, and I don’t mean every time they hug you. I mean in general they turn you down when you try. Do you stop initiating?


Hug is not an invitation in this case and shouldn’t be seen as a signal.

I would initiate when YOU feel like it because you want to. If she says no that’s fine you either go to bed if it is that time or go do something else that you enjoy. Ideally it is constructive like learning something or physical training but it doesn’t matter as long as it is something you want to do. The key point here is the mindset.

We have had a really rough last two nights because of damage to our house and it has been very stressful. Wasn’t sure if my wife was going to come to bed or not. She came to bed 20 minutes late which is usually a signal she is tired and is hoping I will be sleeping when she gets there. I wasn’t. She announces, “My period hasn’t started yet if you want to take advantage of that.” Which is about the least sexy thing you could ever say. So I debated whether to pull the trigger and ultimately I wanted to so I decided to F the snot out of her.

The point of that last story was, I did what I wanted to. If she came to bed and was pumping the brakes that is fine I would have just went to sleep or got up and worked or played chess. The mindset I have and that you should think about is that you are #1 and she is lucky to be with you and needs to get on the program.

Of course if you’re not then she won’t be convinced and it won’t work. So not only do you need to believe it you need to make it come true enough that she also believes it.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> That depends, do you want to go on a walk with her at that time because it is what you’re doing anyway or is it she’s going on a walk and you’re coming with? Do you enjoy it? Are you doing it for another reason than the walk itself? Would it be easier for you to go at a different time?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thanks. Yes at the time I was going on the walks every day and my wife was coming at the same time. I was doing the walks for myself to get out of the house and lose weight also which I’ve done.

I’ve lost a stone now in 24 days.1 more to go!

My wife had been affectionate at the time like hugging in bed etc but we’d not had sex for 4 weeks and she’d turned me down numerous times during that period.

It was difficult because I was thinking well there’s no point in initiating because you’re turning me down at a ratio of 9/10, she’s never initiates and lies there like a dead body so **** you I’ll get myself in shape and in 6 months when I’ve sorted myself out I’ll make a decision about whether she’s going to be part of my life anymore as a wife.

which is sort of the position I’m in now.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

BIL310 said:


> So when you’re doing a 180 and beginning to work on yourself what do you do in these situations?


The 180, as I understand it, is for when your partner's having an affair. It's not exactly a nice guy cure.



> You go on regular walks with your partner do you now stop doing that and go on your own?


You don't have to stop that, if you enjoy the walks. This is not about following some kind of manipulative procedure to try to produce a desired effect. So-called "nice guys" are by instinct manipulative. If you like going on walks with your partner, do so. If you don't, then don't.



> Your partner hugs you in bed but constantly turns you down when you initiate, and I don’t mean every time they hug you. I mean in general they turn you down when you try. Do you stop initiating?


No, don't stop, but (A) Don't initiate unless you _really feel like it_, with lust. Not just because you think you ought to. (B) Show some of that lust in between times, not just when initiating sex. (C) Take steps to make sure you're not overweight, foul-smelling, bad breath etc. Sounds like you've already addressed this. (D) DO you in fact know what's going on? As in, there's a long-standing resentment about some issue or other? If so, then acknowledge it. If not, ask, like "why are we not having sex any more?" Not in a sulky way.



> If both answers are yes what should your answer be when your partner says you haven’t come near me, you don’t even go on walks anymore?


This should not arise. You should communicate clearly whatever is happening.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

The 180 can be used for a myriad of reasons. It should be implemented when you want to focus on your own happiness. It’s for you, not punishment for your wife. It’s the beginning stages of detachment. If you implement the 180 just to get a reaction out of your wife, you will be disappointed. If she ends up reacting to you enjoying life on your own, so be it.


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## DesireHerOnly1 (Jan 4, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> You’re still acting like a NG.
> 
> In order for your wife to be in a relationship with you it needs to be a sexual relationship. You’re not happy with it and she needs to see that it is a problem for her because if she doesn’t fix it you will not be there.
> 
> ...


This is the right response.
Read Dead Bedroom Fix
If you don’t change your behaviour, nothing could ever change.
Im in a similar situation (maybe not so bad, just my wife is happy with once a month and I think once a week is healthy (prefer 2 times a week).

so looking for 4 times more intimacy (sex) where she desires/touches me.

Im on a journey, working through things wisely (listen to what attracts women and what turns them away).
Keep mystery, give her limited but very present attention. Love her and engage with her emotionally, touch her (not her breasts) throughout the day, hug her, rub her neck, lower back, bring her in close for a manly hug and literally walk away and do something, then engage with her again and again (make her think of you). Do your thing, then go an have a lay on your bed (don’t tell her) and shut the door.

if you do all this, it is likely her mind will shift from distractions/stress/kids etc and will be on you.

she will walk in the room and say “what are you doing” its not a game, she truly wants ti know? You need to be in such a place where actually all you want to do is lay down (don’t be needy) and she is likely to shut the door and ride you (during the midday).

and work on yourself.

for myself I am on this journey, but I see hope as my wife’s interest has improved.

if it doesnt than you will need to man up, as she may not be interested in you. And if thats the case she may not want to ever change.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

DesireHerOnly1 said:


> This is the right response.
> Read Dead Bedroom Fix
> If you don’t change your behaviour, nothing could ever change.
> Im in a similar situation (maybe not so bad, just my wife is happy with once a month and I think once a week is healthy (prefer 2 times a week).
> ...


But this is very different from what the other poster described. The other poster was going about his day doing things he wanted and needed to do, for himself. Putting gas in his car, shopping for a swordfish dinner he himself wanted, planning his breakfast, getting some of his work done.

You are describing deliberate game playing: touch her, but not her breasts 🙄, then walk away, rinse repeat. Go in your room, lay on the bed and shut the door but--- don't tell her. All designed to try to manipulate her to think of you by pinging her then withdrawing.

First scenario: guy doing his own things, things he wants to do for himself, his own enjoyment and interest. Second scenario: manipulation by deliberate game playing because the only aim is to get her to pay attention to you --actions that have nothing to do with things you are doing for your own self and are solely purposed in manipulation, kinda like training a dog. .

If my spouse tried to dog train me like that, he can go **** himself.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Haha incidentally I am on the do my thing hard program today. Wife doesn’t come to bed last night to stay up and work. I wake up at 2am and she’s back playing match 3 games.

I think today for lunch I am ordering a sandwich. I was going to make baked potatoes with dinner but I don’t feel like it. I think I’d rather have mixed veggies. Weights today going to be TRX.


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