# Family time/kids activities and money



## jnb150

My wife and I just had our 1st baby in April! My wife has a 9 yr old daughter from a previous marriage that we have 50% custody of.

We have differing opinions on how our kids should be involved in activities. We both feel like they should participate in whichever ones they want to, but we disagree on how many or how much time they spend doing them. Also, I'm more concerned about the quality time and financial strain it puts on the rest of the family. 

We're a middle class family. I'm out of debt, but my wife has significant credit card debt. With daycare costs coming up, we're basically going to be breaking even every month which will prevent her from paying down debt. She also wants to move back to her old community within 5 years so both kids are in the same school district. (her 9 yo uses her dads address and stayed in the school). However, the median home price in that community is at least 100k more than what we own now. I agreed with moving back there, under the agreement that we can afford it, and aren't over-extending ourselves.

So all of this leads into Family time/kids activities and money. I'm of the belief that our kids should participate in several different activities, but not to the extent that it places a burden on the family, our wallets, or our marriage.

Our current disagreement is with my step-daughters dance classes. She joined dance company this year (from regular recreational dance class) which greatly increased her commitment to the dance studio (studio time and home time), plus greatly increased expenses for us. She dances 3 days a week for a total of roughly 6 hrs. My wife has to carpool her there for the majority of those classes. Plus she added 2 weekend long competitions, and a week long comp in VA beach. There are also all of the unscheduled "requirements" like pool parties, Christmas parties, etc... that she attends with my wife. Added costs for attire, makeup, costumes, competition fees and so on. It also draws more time requirements from my wife; doing makeup, more driving, competitions. 

This immediately impacts our ability to have a family vacation, and I feel over the long run our ability to move.
We agreed to have my wife and step-daughter go to VA alone and room with another mom/dancer duo to cut our costs by 50%. Especially because our baby would be 2 months old, and having her at the beach wouldn't be fun for anyone. I'm using my vacation days to stay at home. My wife's a teacher BTW so she's home all summer. Now this leaves us with the inability to go on a family vacation this summer. However, I'm not sure if taking the whole family to a dance competition for a week is a family vacation anyways. Alot of the other dads/kids don't go, and my step daughters dad may be going. My step daughter is going to want to be with her dance squad. My wife will want to be mingling with the other dance moms, and that would leave me and the baby as a proverbial 3rd wheel. So that leaves us in a money crunch for actual family vacations in the following years.

All of these added expenses also prevent my wife from paying down her debt. We can't afford to move now, and I really don't know if we'll be able to move 5 years from now, comfortably. I have a hard time translating the money issue to my wife. "You have debt now, you're not paying for dance out of pocket, because you have 15k in cc debt." 

I feel like the time consumed by dance also negatively effects our family time and our ability to develop a healthy marriage. There's always something going on. The 2 weekends we have a month are consumed by activities 11-12 months a year. Dance class is every saturday afternoon. Plus the extra curricular dance activities. We have family gatherings, and my wife has a close knit group of friends that seem to have kids birthday parties twice a month. All things that my wife would hate to miss. But, that leaves little time for the 4 of us to bond, or for the wife and I to be adults. I feel like the constant chauffeuring and time suck of these dance classes give us little time as a family of 4, and the money aspect prevents us from saving for the future or enjoying life now.


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## ButWeAreStrange

I can definitely sympathize with the frustration of trying to find a balance between finances and providing children with the most opportunities. My husband and I barely fit into the middle class, but we break even every month leaving no room for some minimal debt fixing or extras. We grew up very differently, though, and that had provided a lot of discussion points before we bought a home and began raising our children. He grew up upper middle class, never had to worry about anything, constant extra-curricular activities, big family vacations, etc. I grew up poverty line, didn't have an actual bed to myself until I was a teenager (prior to that is was mattresses on the floor or a shared full-size with my two siblings. In my case, my parents couldn't afford to pay for classes or extras that were simply out of the range of their budget and it was something that ultimately helped develop a deep appreciation on my end for being able to save, earn and get creative when something was out of reach. This creativity has led to my husband and I developing a lot of fun and unique ways to help our kids pursue their interests without breaking the bank. 

While I understand that your wife and step-daughter have an established life within their dance community, it should also be equally important for her to recognize the burden it might become in the long-term for the family especially if she's set on moving. Is there any financial help coming from the ex to support his daughter's dance? Your wife and step-daughter could also work on developing a fundraising side-project that will help keep their joint interest afloat without adding pressure to the stretched finances. 

It honestly sounds like at this point it isn't necessarily the dancing itself that is the main pull but rather the social outlet that they've both become accustomed to. It might help to look into free or cheaper local activities to introduce them to (i.e. scouts, or local studios, etc) that could develop a new line of socializing which would be an easier shift away from the more expensive one. If dancing is a huge part of your step-daughter's life, and it's not just riding on the social aspect, there are many ways she can continue with it without it ultimately sinking your family's ability to move to a more desirable location. 

When money is tight, it really comes down to prioritizing, something that your wife should, as an adult, understand and your step-daughter could really benefit from learning. And in regards to vacations, while the beach is a great go-to, being financially crafty can allow for more interesting and intimate family bonding opportunities. Try to looking into more unique day trips to take, even once a month or once a season. Introduce the family to new things or find ways to think outside of the box. Maybe even start looking up lists for interesting family day trips in your state or a close neighboring one. Those types of vacations are likely to be more memorable and the joint excitement of exploration together as a family unit will provide great bonding opportunities. 

A small list of the some of the ones we've done in the past (even when our children were infants) are:
- museums
- underground caverns
- treehouse camping
- small zoos
- local historical or fantasy fairs
- family-oriented seasonal festivals
- planetariums 

Some places will also offer free-days for families or reduced prices/special offers for children. Maybe you can all sit down as a family and create a list of things you want to do, and instead of doing one big vacation try to fit in a bunch of mini-one-day vacations that are scattered throughout the year. While compromises can be a bit disappointing to have to come to, the outcomes can actually be extremely fun and provide more opportunity for everyone in the end.


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## jnb150

Thanks for telling your story!

The ex helps with expenses for dance, but dance is so expensive right now, that the 50% we pay is still alot. He doesn't pay for the VA beach trip, and I wouldn't expect him to. We're paying $125/night to split a room plus all of the other expenses involved in a "vacation".

My wife came from a lower middle class family, and I came from a straight middle class family. However, her ex makes alot of money, and she was used to not having to worry about costs while married. Once she divorced she quickly went into debt on her own, and it snowballed from there. I finally paid off my CC debt this year, and only have a car payment and school loan left. I struggled for years to make it to a place where I'm not relying on credit cards, and I'm afraid I'm going to end back up there.

I'm all down for planning smaller trips, and weekend trips, but I would still like to leave Pittsburgh every once and awhile. I want to be able to go on beach vacations, or take the kids somewhere more exotic once they get older. My dad lives in Florida, but even driving or flying down there for a free place to stay is out of the budget at this point.

I feel like they're just as involved in dance because of the social aspect as much as the physical. It's a small group of 9 girls on her team, and my wife is good friends with several of the other moms. Which I think is great. I'm just struggling to find a way to juggle it or accept it for what it is. I honestly feel that between money and time, it spreads our household too thin. Looking down the road a couple years, I feel like it's going to prevent us from ultimately moving, and more important, being able to develop our family relationships. My step daughter is only with us 50% of the week as it is.


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## Mr. Nail

I'm not a big fan of Dance. But looking at it realistically it is no worse than many kids activity choices. Scouting is a year round commitment, Many of the sports are extending into that range as well. Off season training, camps, and so on. When I was a kid, (and rode my pet dino to school) we were able to choose 3 or 4 activities to try during the year. With time for hobbies on the side. I was involved in scouting, and religion, and up to three sports a year. I dabbled in science, fishing, and (not by choice) gardening. Obviously not all at 9 years old. 

If one of my sports had required 50 Saturday afternoons a year, I would have never fished with my dad. 6 hours a week of practices sounds OK for a sport at the high school level. 6 hours a week year round is a lifestyle. When choosing a major activity for kids I want to know how this activity is going to influence their whole life. Many of the sports and dance don't impress me with the life lessons the kids learn. But that is just the opinion of a stranger.

I'm also interested in your goal to move up to keep both kids in the same school district. With their age difference they will never be in the same School and you step daughter will be graduating when baby is her age. Is it really an important goal? again just looking at it from the outside.

To me everything hinges on your ability to reduce that 15k in cc debt. She can dance her shoes off and you can make that move if that debt gets paid. If the debt grows, you won't be able to buy dance costumes next year. It's that serious.


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## Ms. GP

I don't think you married someone who's very good with money. Dance is ridiculously expensive and so are new babies. It's not personal, it's math. She's just going to justify doing what she wants that is not for her, but for the child. There's no way you're going to be able to move. She's not dealing with reality. I believe the expression is champagne taste on a beer budget. Unless major changes are made, get used to being in debt. Doesn't sound like she's capable of delaying satisfaction to work towards financial goals.


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## Adelais

That debt needs to be taken care of before expensive activities are added. Dance must be stopped and the debt paid down as quickly as possible.


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## FrenchFry

I am very biased - I danced for 14 years with a traveling company and in college. My son has expressed interest and has an aptitude for a few traveling sports so I'm prepared to do the same. It is expensive. It is a time suck. There are ways to deal with both, but it requires cooperation between parents, the dance academy and the kids.


However, that debt needs to go before any sort of activities happen. I wouldn't be traveling anywhere or spending any sort of money until that gets under control. 15k of consumer debt is way, way too much.


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## jnb150

Mr Nail, My wife is a teacher, and her goal to move to the same district is so she doesn't have to juggle 3 different school schedules. Hers, my step daughters, and our daughters. Even though I would obviously be helping with the juggling. The school district her daughter is in is one of the best in Pittsburgh. They also have one of the highest tax rates! I firmly believe that moving back to this community is sort of a goal/dream as well. Something she's trying to prove to herself. "I'm going to get back there". 

I honestly don't care about that stuff though. I want to find a house that we love, and can afford, in a good school district. I don't want a house we can barely afford, and don't like, in a great school district.

Ms. GP, I never once thought she was good with money! She could be 10x worse, but she's more concerned with providing for her daughter, than living within her means.

Frenchfry, what's your opinion on being in dance company through high school? My wife and I both agree this isn't going to be a career for Bella. The problem is, she's more advanced than the basic rec classes, but maybe in the bottom half of performers on the dance company squad. It doesn't give her time to try other activities, nor the money. Bella says she loves dance, and I know she loves "to dance", but not sure if she loves dance company. She dances around the house all day, but it's not like she's nailing down her routines to be on Dancing with the stars. She enjoys performing and trying out new stunts, but I don't see her being thrilled with perfecting technique. Which IMO, is what dance company is for.

Here's the whole issue with dance company, it's a conversation that ends in a stale mate and my wife being upset EVERY TIME. She doesn't agree that it's a time issue at all. She agrees that it's a "minor" money issue, but that she'll be able to fix it by tutoring or some other odds and ends jobs. Which, I reply to her saying if time isn't an issue now, working extra hours will make time an issue. 

I think she sees dance as an outlet for her daughter. Something that makes her happy. An escape. MY Wife and her ex were divorced when Bella was around 4, so she doesn't remember them being married, but she still has issues with them being divorced. I'm a child of divorce, I know what it's like. I just feel like throwing money and time into an activity we can't afford isn't the way to heal the scars from the divorce.

I'm trying to build a new family for all 4 of us. I want all 4 of us to be able to go away on trips. I want all 4 of us to be able to have activities we enjoy. I feel like my wife is sacrificing that for her daughter to make up for her having divorced parents. 

She's also completely misunderstanding how CC debt works. She pretends like it's not there. She makes the minimum payment every month, and not much more. She feels like because she's paying dance fees out of pocket, that she's not accruing more debt. Realistically, she has 15k in debt that's accruing interest. Believe me, I understand money and debt in great detail. Somehow, I can't translate it to her.

So please, help me! How do I translate money to her!?


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## Mr. Nail

Thanks for the follow up. The move is a dream. It has an emotional value to her. The move is probably the best way to get her to understand the debt problem. Show her exactly what she needs to pay every month in order to remove that debt and make the move possible.


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## jnb150

Great suggestion. I guess I'll have to nail down our exact expenses for the next 5 years, or as close to exact as possible. Then figure in her debt, and the cost of buying a new house in 5 years. I guess it's hard to see the truth unless it smacks you right in the face!


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## FrenchFry

I think with any youth sports it's a bad idea to approach the activity as a pathway to a career - realistically it's not going to happen for pretty much all of the kids. Good on you for realizing that early! The reason I am a fan of youth team sports is that is can teach you a lot about life and who you are, not the career.

I was single minded at your daughter's age. I didn't really want to try any other activity, I had enough of trying stuff in P.E. and all I really liked was dance (and sometimes kickball. :grin2

I loved dancing through high school. I wouldn't say I was the best dancer starting out, but I had a lot of enthusiasm and drive which made up for skill. I absolutely danced around my house without working on technique - I danced every where. I still dance everywhere.

Eventually, the technique was learned, which in my opinion was the job of the dance company. They scouted out raw energy and spent time directing that potential into formats which would best suit them. Then once that direction was established, spent time on the mechanics, perfection and noticing the kids who had "the vision," to see what makes a dance great vs. good. That drive for perfecting technique really did not come until later - probably when I was in middle school. 

I am doing a bit of studying now into how kids go from youth sports to college sports and one of the biggest predictors is how often they do the activity - skilled or not - without prompting. That your daughter is dancing on her own would be enough reason for me to keep her in a slightly more focused company than in rec.




> I'm trying to build a new family for all 4 of us. I want all 4 of us to be able to go away on trips. I want all 4 of us to be able to have activities we enjoy. I feel like my wife is sacrificing that for her daughter to make up for her having divorced parents.


So a couple things - I have a sister, but our age difference pretty much makes it so that I was essentially an only child. My parents are still together. I never felt I was deprived of other activities-I was in a few clubs in high school, went to various kid leadership conferences and I had time to do solo things like painting and pottery. We traveled quite a bit when I was a kid, inside and outside of dance. 

Dance was a venue to travel - my parents came with me all over the place and I have fond memories especially of hanging out with my mom. We didn't have an acrimonious mother-daughter relationship even in my teen years because we spent so much time together. 

Yes, it was a sacrifice. Like I said, I'm prepared to to the same for my kid because the benefits of teamwork, sticking through something and learning things like discipline, time-management and the importance of realizing that someone is relying on you and reliance on others seems better than our current alternative which is video games and structured sterile activities. My husband and I make time for each other but like this last season, we were in sport all day and dates were at night or mid week. Just depends.

I typed all these words but again, it is moot until the CC debt is under control.


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## jnb150

I definitely understand all of your points as to why she should stay in dance, and perhaps even competitive dance. My opinion was never that should should quit all together. I realize she loves it. I just mean the competitive part. My wife and step daughter are already seeing how the teachers favor the stars of the group. Which isn't Bella. Giving them more direction during class, and giving the center stage or front line placements. My step daughter isn't terrible, but she's not "front line". Should we pay for that, Debt aside? Because I know that's the overruling factor I'm trying to convey to my wife.

How was dance when you were participating? Was it "clicky" like it is now? "Dance Moms"! My wife partially agrees with me, that the atmosphere is cannibalistic. She's seeing another side of one of the moms who is a close friend. Likewise, Bella is seeing different sides of her close friends on the team. Me me me me me. We're the best. We should be in front. It's just a crappy atmosphere IMO. I know there's a lot of skills she's learning being there. Unfortunately, being catty and selfish are 2 of them.

I know some of the moms personally, and some I don't. But I know I would have zero fun being around them at nationals. Nor would I enjoy spending a whole week with 10 moms, 10 girls, and like the 2 dads who show up. That's not a "family" vacation to me. Us 4 and 20 other people. I have enough foresight to know that we wouldn't get much time away from them.

I've also read that having kids focus on 1 activity at this early of an age isn't good for them physically. One sport athletes have a higher rate of injury than those who have multiple activities or just play for fun.


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## FrenchFry

Talk with your daughter and try to gauge her personal passion.

Dance was clique-y for sure and yes, right around this age is when parents and kids start to lose their mind. I was on a team where my coaches daughters and their daughter's best friends were on there at the same time so while I was building up my own repertoire, they were given special attention and accolades. Yes, it was clique-y and hyper-critical. Yes, you start to see the harsher side of competitiveness at this age. My mom, however, did her job in guiding me through it all - because I wanted to. Yes, there is cattyness and selfishness but that has not gone away since I grew up :grin2:

I know this sounds awful, but this is also a lesson for life as well. I worked for a company where the bosses' son did absolutely nothing, passed on all of his work and got paid handsomely - because he's the son. I've also worked in places where I was the favorite. This is 100% a part of life and I learned how to navigate it quickly through the extreme pressures of dance.

So, I wasn't a favorite but I got better faster than the kids who got all the attention. I didn't get burned out and angry at 13 because I wasn't stressed out about perfection. My mom encouraged me to be inspired by the better kids, encouraged me to have fun in what I was doing and always kept tabs on how I really felt about the company. She always, always said "If you do not want to do this, you do not have to." Eventually, I became one of the leads because while clique-yness is a thing, good companies recognize talent.

One thing I plan to do a bit different is alternate between elite teams and rec teams for my son's preferred sport. I think you learn a lot in recreational activities - you learn more about how personality is a key component in a team vs in an elite squad where you start to learn how your brute force determines your replace-ability and I think kids need to learn both.

I agree about kids multi-sporting. I know for me, it would have been a waste of money, all I liked was dance. My son is different, he is gifted in one sport but is all around athletic. Right now, he does the other sports recreationally as they fit in our schedule and he prioritizes the one he shows a passion for. Two examples: he runs recreationally and a 5k and his championships fell on the same day. We did not go to the 5k. He does a martial art: the martial art tournament and a game were on the same day. We did both - tournament in the AM, game in the PM. He was exhausted, he did absolutely great in both but if it happens again, he'd probably skip the tournament because of how tired he was.

YES - this takes up a ton of time. Yes, this takes up money. We just feel like it is worth it and he asks us for it, unprompted. We have always said that if he wants to do it, we'll do our best to make it happen and that does mean our priorities may be different than other families. 

Nationals - I can't change your mindset but I do believe it is what you make of it. I had a ton of downtime, a ton of alone family time - especially in Florida, California and Las Vegas. I'm a woman, I was a girl and I had a blast with my mom. My dad when came with us, did his own thing (Usually golfing) hung out when we had family time and cheered when I was on stage. I have fond memories of it all, I don't feel like I missed out on anything. My mom loved it, she has fond memories as well and my Dad, he was a good sport and while herds of girls weren't his thing I still thought having him there was super special.


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## Yeswecan

Plan on staying were you are for now. Refinance your home and pay the credit card debt. What you W wants and the reality are two different things. Let me tell you, $15k credit card debt and paying the minimum will get you cleared of the debt by age 60. You need to start thinking large scale payment which will require a home equity loan or refinance. The daughter should have dance classes. It is family time. You just need to go to the classes. For me, you are coloring the daughters classes as something negative. Sorry, dance classes, softball, baseball, basketball, piano lessons and the like are part of having children. If this activity for your kids were to be a burden financially and ruin your vacation then why did you have another child?


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## Spicy

My parents married very young and had me right away. They had no extra money, and never went into debt.
I participated in no paid activities. Instead, we spent wonderful quality time together enjoying the free things in life. I couldn't have had a better childhood, and I had no idea we were poor! Lol!

I personally would not be spending money on anything extra with all that debt hanging over your family. If it were me, I would be honest with the XH, that we simply cannot afford the extra cost of this completely elective thing, and also that you are trying to bond as a new family with a baby and the time is not available either. If daddy wants to pay for and take the time to keep her in this activity, so be it. 

This is all easy for me to say to you, because I agree with you. Your wife does not, and I highly doubt you will win this battle. I assume you knew about the debt before you married her and had a baby with her. 

Sorry you are here. It is very difficult when couples don't have the same views of money/debt.


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## jnb150

To clarify Yeswecan, this isn't my daughter in question. It's my step daughter. I never said dance classes were bad. I said having advanced classes that probably cost us an extra $150/month or more over top of normal dance classes is a burden. This also isn't my debt. It was my wife's from before we got married. While yes, our combined incomes still aren't affording us a ton of wiggle room financially, this debt is compounding it.

We chose to have "another kid", because I didn't "have" a kid. There's a HUGE difference. My wife just turned 38. We've pretty much run out of time to have great odds of having a healthy baby, and luckily we did.

Spicy, That was my next thought. Have my W tell her ex that we can't afford it, and he would need to pick up slack if he wants to keep her in those classes.

I did know about the debt before we got married. I've been out of the loop with the actual cost of the advanced dance classes until it started and we were being nickeled and dimed every month with new costs/fees. Financial issues became more clear when we factored in daycare costs.

I didn't just "wake up" to this problem. It's an argument I've been having for over 12 months. I've been planning so that by the time the baby was born I was CC debt free, and I am. Just paying student loans and a car. I just honestly can't get my wife to GET IT. She's digging us into a hole all by herself, and unfortunately, I'm going to be dragged into it with her.


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## azimuth

If your goal is to pay of the CC debt, there should be no vacation, either. If your household has to choose between one or the other, vacation or dance, and you choose vacation, then it's like the daughter has made a huge sacrifice. She would have to sacrifice her lifelong activity that she loves and has friends with. Which is a lot for a 9yo, imo. From her perspective it might look like you and your wife didn't have to sacrifice anything but she did.

I totally get not liking the competitive dance environment. It sucks, the other parents are sometimes annoying, it takes up a lot of time and it's pretty expensive. But unless your children never do any activities at all, every child's activity is going to have these drawbacks. It pays off though when you see your child smiling and happy, achieving things and being proud of themselves.

Let's look at some positives of the dance team
1) Daughter is happy and doing something she enjoys
2) Daughter gets to socialize with her friends in a kid-positive environment
3) Daughter is around kids who are focused on dancing and staying out of trouble
4) Daughter is not watching tons of tv or glued to a phone
5) Daughter is physically fit and active
6) Daughter is gaining confidence in herself which will help her navigate teen years
7) Daughter doesn't have fear of performing in front of people which will help when she grows up

Let's face it, once she gets older and into the real nitty gritty of this team, she will likely burn out and quit on her own. It takes A LOT of dedication to continue at the advanced levels. I personally would ride it out until then. JMO


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## jnb150

We would never remove her from dance classes. Just competitive dance. She would still have the opportunity to dance 3x a week and perform in the yearly recital. 

Competitive dance is costing us over $150/month extra. Which is $150 we don't have when we're already in debt 15k. 

I understand your point about sacrificing dance or vacation. But i disagree with it. 

This isn't a question of either: everyone gets a summer vacation and step daughter quits dance all together. 
or step daughter keeps dance classes and no one goes on vacation. 

The issue is EVERYONE needs to sacrifice, and I could argue she should have never been signed up for competitive dance in the 1st place. As a family, we shouldn't all be locked into our daily lives for 12 months a year so 1 person can live out their wildest dreams. There's also another child in the picture now too! We literally can't afford to go to a theme park for a day right now without accruing debt. We can't afford to go out to dinner once a month as a family without going into debt. Are you telling me the difference between rec dance classes, and competitive dance classes is so huge, that everyone else in the family (3 people) should sacrifice the smallest amount of luxury? Do we not celebrate christmas? birthdays? Or do we just keep charging it?!

This is still also neglecting the fact that we have 15k in CC debt! Plus we're not saving for retirement, college savings, or have the ability to maintain our home without accruing more debt.

As is, we would be breaking even every month with costs as they are(necessities - utilities - food - daycare - insurance - and I'm 99% sure we would be going into debt). That includes 0 disposable income, and 0 unforeseen expenses. Which would raise our likelihood of going into debt every month to 100%. On top of the 15K in debt my wife already has racked up.


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## FrenchFry

Bloop.


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## brooklynAnn

Well, since the competitive dance is whats cost money and time...then use that to argue the point of having her stop competing.

Then take the money you save from that and put that toward the CC debt to pay it off sooner.

I can't remember, does your wife work?


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## jnb150

Frenchfry, i dabbled in teeball and lacrosse. not for too long. I was and am more of an outdoorsy "free" activity type. Hiking, running, etc... 
Wife likes to read and spend time with friends. She was a dancer in highschool. Her parents wouldn't let her when she was younger, and I think that's rubbing off on decision making now.

Is it really serious enough to declare bankruptcy? That's never really something I've thought of. My wife's teaching job will grant her large bumps in pay over the next 3-5 years, guaranteed. I would hate to make a hasty decision like that right now. My thought was that I don't want to compound the issue.


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## azimuth

jnb150 said:


> The issue is EVERYONE needs to sacrifice, and I could argue she should have never been signed up for competitive dance in the 1st place. As a family, we shouldn't all be locked into our daily lives for 12 months a year so 1 person can live out their wildest dreams. There's also another child in the picture now too! We literally can't afford to go to a theme park for a day right now without accruing debt. We can't afford to go out to dinner once a month as a family without going into debt. Are you telling me the difference between rec dance classes, and competitive dance classes is so huge, that everyone else in the family (3 people) should sacrifice the smallest amount of luxury? Do we not celebrate christmas? birthdays? Or do we just keep charging it?!


Ok, it's good that she would still be able to dance, I misunderstood and thought she would have to stop dancing altogether. Quitting just the competition team is definitely a reasonable request to save some money and apply it to your CC debt.

But that will only free up $150/mo. It sounds like you may need to think about a bigger and more aggressive plan to eliminate this debt. When I read your post it seems like your step daughter is bearing a lot of the blame and burden. She's only 9 and just living her life as she's guided by her parents and stepparents. She didn't make a choice to put you in debt. In two-three years your new baby will be old enough to participate in an activity as well which will have to be budgeted.


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## jnb150

azimuth, you're spot on. I'm not blaming my step daughter at all. I know she's just doing what she's being told she can do. I'm trying to prevent the debt issue from compounding, and being the same or worse when the baby is old enough to have activities.


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## FrenchFry

.


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## Ms. GP

I think the compromise you are suggesting is more than reasonable. Fwiw, I have two kids that play travel baseball and softball. The money isn't the issue for us because we both have really good jobs, the time suck thing takes a toll on me. Don't even get me started on the parent drama!! Those people aren't our friends. I've already delegated my two weeks of vacation to tournaments at the beach. I swear to God I'm going to go postal, if I have to sit at some ballpark for 12 hours a day for seven straight days. It's definitely not a family vacation. I think your suggestion of dropping down will go over about as well as mine to go back to league ball did!! Lol.


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## jnb150

Frenchfry, I've never been susceptible to peer pressure. I feel that there is some sway with my wife's decision on this. It's a close group(the moms), and the girls are close. It could feel like they're abandoning the moms and girls, and they would be worried about how they would react or what they'd say. Also, FOMO (fear of missing out).

For the record, I don't think my wife is doing this for any of the wrong reasons. I think she feels she's doing this in the best interest of her daughter. I just feel like it's giving her blinders to the rest of our financial issues.


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## jnb150

Ms. GP, you're echoing my exact sentiment. The "time suck" I'm worried about got lost in this thread, but it's also something I'm very worried about. Especially with 2 kids 9 years apart, and in 2 totally different social groups and schools. Plus the fact the my step daughter is only with us 50% the time.

I'm so happy to have your viewpoint that the "family vacation" to a week long tournament is anything but. You do it for your kids, but it's not a vacation. And in 3 years when my daughters a toddler, she' not going to have the patience to sit in a convention center for 10 hrs/a day for 5 days watching dance.


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## Spicy

OP - you are dead on right IMO. This is detrimentally affecting you all now, and certainly long term. If anything, besides cutting out the additional classes, you should be sitting down and figuring out what other ways to be able to cut your monthly expenses so you can hack away at this debt, and someday get yourself out from drowning. At middle age and not saving for retirement is epically bad. That kid better be the best dancer ever so she can support you guys when you are old.

Obviously, the kid is not what has caused the $15k in debt. That's all on your wife. She sounds like she needs to go to credit counseling if that still exists. Have you broken out the numbers on how long it will take her to pay that off, if ever? Next time she asks about moving, flat out tell her it is never going to happen. You instead will be paying interest on that mascara she bought 5 years ago. 

Costs have to drastically be cut. Ideas of ways (on what would apply to you guys) Get rid of satellite, sell one of your cars and use public transportation, no eating out, wife needs to grocery shop to cross use items and she should be couponing. Move somewhere smaller/less expensive. Vacations are out. Christmas and birthdays probably need to be extremely minimal, handmade gifts. She needs to feel the affects instead of just hearing you complain about it. If her life still hasn't been forced to change, she never will until you are sunk beyond repair. 

You have to put your foot down, or else you will be bankrupt in less than five years.


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## jnb150

She accrued most of, if not all of it between marriages. I don't think she was out buying anything and everything. She was just spending beyond her means. Probably too big of a rental condo. Didn't downsize the car. She was trying to keep their lives as close to pre-divorce as possible, and just spent. Her ex makes significantly more than her, and the realization of a lifestyle change took a little too long to sink in. By the time I met her she wasn't spending like that, but didn't have the means to dig her self out of the hole.

She switched jobs right when I met her and took a paycut. Because at her new school district she'll end up topping out at over $30k more per year in the next 10 years or so.

I tallied up debt too in my younger years. So I can't be a total snow about it. I just realized it and enacted a plan to fix it. She realized she shouldn't be racking up debt, sort of, but doesn't want to make the cuts to fix it. It's not reality to her because she's not seeing any direct effects yet.

We're talking tonight and breaking it all down. I filled out our expenses spreadsheet with our 5 year goals, IE moving, to explain that it's not happening.

Moving isn't really feasible. We don't have a big house as is, and probably wouldn't save a ton of money on a smaller home. We looked at refi but the lender said it wouldn't be lucrative either.

We only have internet at home, no cable. We need that because I work from home. Have minimum data plan for cell phones on TMobile. The only monthly bill we could axe would be Netflix, but that's only $1/month.

We both have car payments, but the loans are too new to sell them. We'd be upside down. My old car was falling apart, and I used what equity I had to pay off the rest of my debt and get the new car loan at full price. Part of her money problems were being in a terrible lease with her previous car, and having credit that was too bad to get another one. (This was right before we met). She was forced into buying out her old car at a terrible rate. She had a 7 yr old car out of warranty with 3-4 yrs left on the loan. So I suggested we get rid of it.

Believe me, hindsight is 20/20. I realize getting 1 or both cars was a stupid ass idea last year. But we also wanted to have safe vehicles to transport the kids around in. Regardless of someone's individual views on extended warranties, we purchased them for both vehicles hoping that once they're paid off, we can run them into the ground. I also got rid of all of my cc debt, and I'm only paying 2% on the car. Rather than 10-15% on CC. For me, that was the best financial decision.

My credit is over 800. She finally got hers over 700. I don't need to claim bankruptcy, but I would hate to see her credit be ruined for the next decade.

But I do agree, there needs to be a reckoning.


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## Yeswecan

jnb150 said:


> To clarify Yeswecan, this isn't my daughter in question. It's my step daughter. I never said dance classes were bad. I said having advanced classes that probably cost us an extra $150/month or more over top of normal dance classes is a burden. This also isn't my debt. It was my wife's from before we got married. While yes, our combined incomes still aren't affording us a ton of wiggle room financially, this debt is compounding it.
> 
> We chose to have "another kid", because I didn't "have" a kid. There's a HUGE difference. My wife just turned 38. We've pretty much run out of time to have great odds of having a healthy baby, and luckily we did.


Yes, I understand it is your step daughter. This information(being a step daughter is not necessary). She is your daughter. If you think dance classes get expensive, try college. As far as the dance classes being bad....in your view it is financially bad. That will be projected to the step daughter eventually as the sigh comes from cutting yet another check. Your daughters dance classes are not the issue. It is your W large irresponsible debt of $15k that all must endure until paid. The daughter about to be sidelined for it. For me, the daughters dance is off the table as taking the hit. Perhaps a second job for either one of you if the house can not be refinanced to wipe out the $15k debt. 

Congratulation on your newborn. 

You two need to exam what you can do with what you have so the kids do not take the back seat. Refiance, stay-cations, budget groceries and other means to reduce monthly expenses. 

I really don't see how a child who enjoys an activity the encourages growth is on the chopping block because a vacation may be missed. :scratchhead:


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## jnb150

Yeswecan said:


> I really don't see how a child who enjoys an activity the encourages growth is on the chopping block because a vacation may be missed. :scratchhead:


It's not just about the vacation. It's about the cost; financially, physically, and emotionally. If we both (or one of us) get 2nd jobs, what does that do to our family life? Our own ability to be parents? To be present? To be there for our kids when they need us in any variety of ways? I already work 9 hr days to bring in extra money. If she has to take up extra tutoring after school, some 3rd party has to be relied upon to transport my step daughter to these competitive dance classes, and then we have to leave our newborn daughter in daycare for 10+ hrs a day. My step daughter wouldn't see her mom until 7pm some nights. On the nights we have her. My newborn daughter will be in a daycare center for waaaay too long each day.

It's not as simple as, do everything you can for that 1 kid. Just to take more expensive dance classes? So she sees us less because we're working more, and have it negatively impact our other kid? Plus strain the whole family dynamic because both parents are working 50+ hr weeks on top of car pooling everywhere. 

I think it's a lot more important to focus on developing healthy relationships in the household, for free none the less, than to provide extravagant activities outside the house. That we can't afford.

Cutting costs for dance classes is only 1 small part of the bigger problem. But I completely disagree that it's exempt from cutbacks. And I'm sure as hell not making another kid suffer because her sisters activity is sucking up every dime we have left. Or don't have left. On top of that, I'm not working extra jobs, and seeing my daughter less, because we're trying to afford extra dance classes that are unnecessary.


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## Yeswecan

jnb150 said:


> It's not just about the vacation. It's about the cost; financially, physically, and emotionally. If we both (or one of us) get 2nd jobs, what does that do to our family life? Our own ability to be parents? To be present? To be there for our kids when they need us in any variety of ways? I already work 9 hr days to bring in extra money. If she has to take up extra tutoring after school, some 3rd party has to be relied upon to transport my step daughter to these competitive dance classes, and then we have to leave our newborn daughter in daycare for 10+ hrs a day. My step daughter wouldn't see her mom until 7pm some nights. On the nights we have her. My newborn daughter will be in a daycare center for waaaay too long each day.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, it is all about the expense. The $150.00 a month, is it really going to solve your problem? It will be absorbed elsewhere and I can assure you it will not be a bill. Been there. Your family life...well sir, you are fully prepared to cut your STEP daughters dance. You know, an activity both you and your W can attend. Not to mention recitals. Don't muddy the issue with the "good parenting". And furthermore, I worked 14 hours a day(two jobs) that did not include commute to get the family through. W could stay at home. The kids survived in flying colors. So has our marriage. What can you cut out of the monthly expenses? What can you do to facilitate additional income? Don't bring up nonsense about a second job and your family life. Right now your family life is relegated to being being credit card poor. The child's dance class is the least of the concern and your effort to rectify the credit card debt should be front and center. This debt will affect your household for decades to come if the minimum is paid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> 
> It's not as simple as, do everything you can for that 1 kid. Just to take more expensive dance classes? So she sees us less because we're working more, and have it negatively impact our other kid? Plus strain the whole family dynamic because both parents are working 50+ hr weeks on top of car pooling everywhere.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> The family dynamic is already screwed. Further, I'll state it again, the adults here are irresponsible with credit cards and expensive cars. Champagne tastes on a beer budget. You two created the problem. Fix it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> 
> I think it's a lot more important to focus on developing healthy relationships in the household, for free none the less, than to provide extravagant activities outside the house. That we can't afford.
> 
> *You only think this because it saves you a few dollars a month. Further, take the time to investigate free activities in your area. I have two kids. I've been there. House poor with credit card debt. Found a way. Kids activities were not on the chopping block. There is plenty to do on a dime if you look. Every weekend my entire family found free things to do. Packed lunches. Our vacation was a day at an amusement park.  *
> 
> Cutting costs for dance classes is only 1 small part of the bigger problem. But I completely disagree that it's exempt from cutbacks. And I'm sure as hell not making another kid suffer because her sisters activity is sucking up every dime we have left.
> 
> 
> 
> * Sigh...you pin all your financial ills on your step daughter dance. The newborn will suffer what if the step daughter continues dance? *
> 
> 
> 
> Or don't have left. On top of that, I'm not working extra jobs, and seeing my daughter less, because we're trying to afford extra dance classes that are unnecessary.
Click to expand...

Good luck sir.


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## Satya

Putting the dance issue to one side for a moment, I think that the larger problem at hand here is your wife's historical financial irresponsibility. Some women just want to be "kept" by a partner and not have to worry about expenses, but she needs to be facing reality with the marriage and situation she is now in. She can't ignore expenses any longer.

Is she aware that her debt placed a burden on the family? Does she know enough to not make it worse, but better? Does she have a written plan for paying off the debt, including timeline, even though there will be other activities like dance, etc. that are known entities?

Does she know the meaning of compromise and giving up things because of the current debt?

When you married her, her debt became yours. Frankly, I wouldn't have married if I knew my partner was significantly in CC debt and yes, if that makes me shallow so be it. I wouldn't want to marry someone still learning to grow up and manage money. If she'd had debt from school loans I'd be much more understanding since those are impossible to avoid these days. Even so, she'd need to have a plan for paying off that debt, and be actively demonstrating its execution. Fiscal responsibility is an adult responsibility, whether you are single or in a relationship.

Your step daughter, if she loves dancing, is going to be paying a consequence for your wife's past actions. Maybe instead of taking benefits away from your step daughter the focus needs to be on your wife? Not trying to sound harsh here, but your daughter is too young to make her own money. When she's old enough to work and if she still enjoys dancing (or another activity) she can help to pay for it with her hard earned cash. There's no better lesson to teach a young person than one that will better prepare her for adult life than your wife was prepared for. Every person on this earth should know how to manage money and be independent.


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## john117

In a decade or less she'll be in college. That CC money better be 0 by then and her grades good enough for merit money. Your state isn't the cheapest or most generous...


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## Bluesclues

jnb150 said:


> Ms. GP, you're echoing my exact sentiment. The "time suck" I'm worried about got lost in this thread, but it's also something I'm very worried about. Especially with 2 kids 9 years apart, and in 2 totally different social groups and schools. Plus the fact the my step daughter is only with us 50% the time.
> 
> I'm so happy to have your viewpoint that the "family vacation" to a week long tournament is anything but. You do it for your kids, but it's not a vacation. And in 3 years when my daughters a toddler, she' not going to have the patience to sit in a convention center for 10 hrs/a day for 5 days watching dance.


OP, was there any discussion with you about the competitive dance before she signed her up? Did you not understand the financial/time commitment at the time or were you told after the deal was done? 

I think you are correct on both fronts but I would drop the financial argument. It sounds really petty and will make her defensive. You are already coming back here to defend your choice of automobile. Hell, I feel attacked about my own debt reading this. If the ex husband said “sure I’ll pay for the whole thing” would you still have a problem with it? If your answer is yes, because of the time suck, then you need to go with that angle.


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## FrenchFry

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## DavidGJRock

*jnb150* 
your problem is not in the number of your friends or holidays or hobbies of your children but in a lack of money, that is you need to decide how to make more money and not save more, that's all! Think about how to solve this problem!?


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