# Empty and lost



## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

my wife wants a divorce and i dont. im crushed ,she said that i abandoned her in this marriage and didnt protect her. it started like 3 years ago. i was in a dead end job with no room for growth. i told my wife that it wasnt going to work for me anymore it wasnt enough to support my family. i have 3 kids plus a wife that is a family of 5. i decided to cut my hours from work and go to school fulltime. i did discuss it with her and she wasnt happy about it but i explained the situation to her and she said ok. during the time i was in school she was supporting the family and i know it was alot pressure on her, i get it. during that time she lost her job due the compant going down under. it was a difficult time for us but were able to get through it. i finally finished school. but had a hard time find a jod due to the economy. i finally got a job and now she wants a divorce. i tried asking her to go to ,MC WITH ME SHE SAYS NO. i know icouldve been there more emotionally and more attentive to her needs but i felt so low because i couldnt find a job for a year. i was depressed and gained weight because i felt like i let my fammily down. all i wanted to do was make a better life for my family. ifeel like all pain we went through was for nothing.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

When women feel unsafe, they often run.

5 needs that often fall by the wayside for women when involved in an LTR are

1) Affection
2) Honesty
3) Conversation
4) Financial Security
5) Family Commitment

When the tachometers on these emotional needs trend towards zero, a woman will often become frightened and start looking elsewhere.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

i will make up another user name just to like that more than once


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> When women feel unsafe, they often run.
> 
> 5 needs that often fall by the wayside for women when involved in an LTR are
> 
> ...


Your absolutely right. That was my fault. But to throw away 5 years of marriage on something I believe can be fixed isn't easy to deal with. I mean I love her more than anything she was my world. Sometimes as men we good intentions but because we don't communicate they way we should, the perception is we don't care and that's not always true. At the end of the day it's my fault she was a wife to me and I wasn't a husband to her. I didn't mean to hurt her the way i did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Chuck71 said:


> i will make up another user name just to like that more than once


I don't get it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

RSFWID said:


> I mean I love her more than anything she was my world.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's thinking like this that got you here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> It's thinking like this that got you here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Explain to me what you mean?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

When you make your old lady your entire world - she interprets this as you having little value for yourself.

It destroys her attraction towards you.

It's why you MUST take counter intuitive measures NOW.

Detach as much as possible. You need to approach this like you don't have a care in the world. It's hard but it must be done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> When you make your old lady your entire world - she interprets this as you having little value for yourself.
> 
> It destroys her attraction towards you.
> 
> ...


Ok I get what your saying. It's funny you said that because the more I try to work it the more she says no. She just came home and ask me which route I want to go. Mediation or am I going to contest. Which one would be beneficial to me? I mean Im hurt but I'm tired of the hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Tell her we'll start with mediation.

Without telling her, go get your own attorney.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> Tell her we'll start with mediation.
> 
> Without telling her, go get your own attorney.


Exactly... Like GP says, play to win.

Start doing activities outside the house... Be vague. You no longer answer to her. 

Never bring up the relationship. Treat her like a roommate from now on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> Exactly... Like GP says, play to win.
> 
> Start doing activities outside the house... Be vague. You no longer answer to her.
> 
> ...


I haven't had sex in 4 months I'm going crazy. We have a prenup and I told her I need a copy so I can review it and make sure I'm not liable for anything which I know I'm not. She just got real upset didn't mean to upset her I'm not a mean person but this is a serious situation. Her reply was when did I ever try to hurt you , you'll get it in mediation
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

RSFWID said:


> I haven't had sex in 4 months I'm going crazy. We have a prenup and I told her I need a copy so I can review it and make sure I'm not liable for anything which I know I'm not. She just got real upset didn't mean to upset her I'm not a mean person but this is a serious situation. Her reply was when did I ever try to hurt you , you'll get it in mediation
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When did she ever try to hurt you? LOL...I would say starting 4 months ago...What say you?

PRENUP......sweet!

Let me ask you this.

Are you still that strong self-confident man that had the balls to ask for a pre-nup?


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> When did she ever try to hurt you? LOL...I would say starting 4 months ago...What say you?
> 
> PRENUP......sweet!
> 
> ...


That is without question, I will always be a confident in what ever I do. I just wanted to make sure I did everything I could to save my marriage, because sometimes it's worth saving. In this case it's not.
I have family out of town and they know my situation and the want to come down for z few days, what you think
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> That is without question, I will always be a confident in what ever I do. I just wanted to make sure I did everything I could to save my marriage, because sometimes it's worth saving. In this case it's not.
> I have family out of town and they know my situation and the want to come down for z few days, what you think
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How are you getting through your divorce?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

If you want to save it, don't try to nice her back. 

Focus on you and let the rest take care of itself.

My marriage is in reconciliation. Long story


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> If you want to save it, don't try to nice her back.
> 
> Focus on you and let the rest take care of itself.
> 
> My marriage is in reconciliation. Long story


Ok thank you for the advice. It's going to be a long journey
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

From the other thread, hope you don't mind but I think its more useful to have it all in one place for you?



RSFWID said:


> I need to be honest with myself, I've been a terrible husband to my wife and it wasnt on purpose.When I first met her she was so beautiful to me that I just couldn't resist. We had so much in common and I felt so strong when I was with her. She made each other laugh we always had a good time together, I mean I miss that so much. How did we get here? We got here because I was selfish and didn't pay attention to her even when the righting was on the wall. I miss her. Had to express how im filng
> M
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You ask why?

Let me ask you.

Did you cheat on her in any way. Not just sexually. You say you were emotionally unavailable., did you get those emotional needs met elsewhere?

Did you physically abuse her? Ever hit, slap or shove etc?

Did you mentally abuse her? Did you threaten and intimidate, bully or manipulate?

These are all "terrible things", if you can hold hand on heart and honestly say you didnt do any of these, you need to stop taking sole blame for everything.

You wouldnt be the first person to rcome to TAM saying "oh it's al my fault I was such a lame husband" (/whistles innocently), most cases it turns out to be much more shades of grey than that.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Northern Monkey said:


> From the other thread, hope you don't mind but I think its more useful to have it all in one place for you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I never hit , cheat , threaten or intimidate her. But there is times when I look back, I manipulated her in certain situations and I feel horrible about it. My situation, meaning really boils down to money. I made a decision to go to school because I wanted better for my family. She wasnt happy about it. During that time she had to carry the load which was really ruff on her. in the process she lost her job, which made it harder. Now her and her families problem with me, and I say family because I know there pushing her to do this or she' sleeping with someone else. Is that when I finished school and I could find a job in my current field. I should've gotten a job doing something else. Now that I look back I should've done what ever I could've to take the load of her. That was my fault,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Go stealth and start investigating for a third party. Don't tip your hand. Gather as much info as you possibly could.

Does she have a car?

Brother, I'll tell you this: This has NOTHING to do with you going back to school.

Don't let her make you take All the blame for this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I think ReGroup may be right.

Sounds like blameshifting to me.

Start secretly investigating. 

Something is amiss.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> Go stealth and start investigating for a third party. Don't tip your hand. Gather as much info as you possibly could.
> 
> Does she have a car?
> 
> ...


What you thinking?
Let me ask you this? If
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

If you are READY to find out the truth, purchase and place a Voice Activated Recorder under your wife's car seat.

You need to figure what you are dealing with here.

If there is a PosOm - we'll advise you on what to do next.

You got nothing to lose... Do It.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Access phone records and see if she is texting a particular
phone number a lot.


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

RS, so sorry you are going through this. You will get a lot of advice in these forums, much of it good. It seems to me you have a classic WAW. The fact that she wants out at all costs & doesn't want to reconcile or even try is telling. There may be OM you don't know about. Or there was one, they broke up, & she's now addicted to the idea of having someone else. 

They can get overwhelmed by the hormonal spikes & feelings of lust. Unfortunately no amount of talking, rationalizing, or even begging will get them to change their minds now. They have already devalued you and will perceive your attempts to try to get them to slow down & reconsider as more "controlling" behavior on your part! Their thinking us now dysfunctional and foggy. They are bound & determined to go through with their plan. 

Trust me, these emotions are powerful & they will jolt the WW/ WAW into the fog where their thinking will be dictated by wanting to break free of you & the marriage (their new enemy) to pursue the "happiness" that they will feel has been lost by being a wife and mom. 

I think this happens as a result of the Oprah-fication of the modern woman and/ or other societal factors that lure woman away from their marriages to be an independent woman who doesn't need a man "holding them back/ down". Don't get me wrong, they still want/ need a man, they just want to find one & reset their boundaries with him to have more power/ control than they once felt they had. 

When you made the decision to go back to school & she didn't like it, that may have made a big mental impact on her. She might have been feeling like she was powerless in the marriage & wanted to feel more in control. Having an affair or divorcing & walking away are ways for her to feel like she is getting to call some shots in her life.

IMO, we men are often the major breadwinners & often make the majority of the big decisions in the family. Women who resent being moms and wives for whatever reason are being selfish if they cheat or walk away from the marriage without trying to fix it. And, if they also happen to be a little or a lot narcissistic, watch out. The narcissist WAW can destroy your soul. She is incapable of remorse or empathy for the carnage they inflict during/ after the process. You will no longer recognize her. If you want to learn more about the WAW, go to the enotalone.com website and read through the very long "relationship with x" thread in the divorce forum. This thread was started by a man who later wrote a book on the WAW. The thread is long, but very worth the few days it will take to read. 

There's nothing more frustrating than the powerless feeling of wanting to try & save your marriage when your spouse has already made up her mind. Many will tell you that this is all your fault and that your wife has been telling you for years why she is unhappy & you've simply ignored her. 

If you honestly did not know she was this unhappy and/ or your spouse never made it crystal clear the issues she had were potentially relationship ending, then you should not feel bad. This divorce is on them. The sooner you understand this, the better your recovery will be. 

I wish you luck. I'm over a year post D and although I'm finally making some progress & starting to move on, it's been a long road for me. Hopefully getting a better understanding for the dysfunctional nature of the WAS will help you navigate through this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> I think ReGroup may be right.
> 
> Sounds like blameshifting to me.
> 
> ...


I tell you what really hurts the most. I just got offered a job the day before or after she tells me she wants a divorce. I explain to her that I want to make things right, she says no and she doesn't trust me to do better. I said this what the sacrifice has been about and now that I have a chance to provide for my family you want a divorce. The weekend that just she came home crying because she found out some bad news that her mother was sick. So I said I'm sorry to hear the bad news if need to talk I'm here for you. Her response is " I want to be left alone" I say ok . She come out later and gives me a kiss, remind you we haven't been physical in 3 months and says thank you for trying to be there for me. She allows me to sleep in our bed no sex, and is very affectionate towards me. The next day we wake up she says she going to her sisters house and shell see me later comes over and gives me a kiss in front of her family. So I'm like wow, I felt good. Next few days everything seems to be ok.So I'm thinking ok she willing to work on the marriage. The day before yesterday she comes home and is real distant so I say what's wrong ? She says nothing so then I ask what are we doing because you seem like you want to work this out. She says I told you I want a divorce. I say I know but the way you've been acting I thought we were going to reconcile. She gets in a rage and say I was emotional and vulnerable and don't want this anymore. So why give me mixed signals and believe we have a chance. That broke my heart to where my love is turning to hate.
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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

This ain't about the job. 

Get and read these two books for starters.

No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover

Married Mans sex Life Primer by Athol Kay.

These will start you on your road to recovery. 


As far as mixed signals, she uses them to make sure Plan B (YOU) is in place. That way she can go entertain or find Plan A.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

ExisaWAW said:


> RS, so sorry you are going through this. You will get a lot of advice in these forums, much of it good. It seems to me you have a classic WAW. The fact that she wants out at all costs & doesn't want to reconcile or even try is telling. There may be OM you don't know about. Or there was one, they broke up, & she's now addicted to the idea of having someone else.
> 
> They can get overwhelmed by the hormonal spikes & feelings of lust. Unfortunately no amount of talking, rationalizing, or even begging will get them to change their minds now. They have already devalued you and will perceive your attempts to try to get them to slow down & reconsider as more "controlling" behavior on your part! Their thinking us now dysfunctional and foggy. They are bound & determined to go through with their plan.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to respond. I apreviate the support
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

RS, one more thing. This crap from her that you abandoned her & didn't protect her is BS. Marriage is a partnership. Vows are taken. For better or for worse, remember that? You have to understand that she has an obligation to you that is every bit as important as yours to her!! 

This one makes my blood boil because I was the one who bent over backwards for my x. I happened to make very big $$, we had it all. I worked like a dog in jobs that stressed me out & had me traveling up to 80% of the time. 

It's not too much to ask for your wife to be supportive & put YOU first every so often. When I read the ebook No More Mr. Nice Guy (NMMNG), I felt like a fool! I had allowed myself to become a beta male over time & she walked all over me. It happened so subtlety over many years, but she had my balls in the Louis Vuitton purses I bought her. Wow, I've learned SO much during all this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Like a little puppy running to her for approval and upset when she withholds it.



RSFWID said:


> I tell you what really hurts the most. I just got offered a job the day before or after she tells me she wants a divorce. I explain to her that I want to make things right, she says no and she doesn't trust me to do better. I said this what the sacrifice has been about and now that I have a chance to provide for my family you want a divorce. The weekend that just she came home crying because she found out some bad news that her mother was sick. So I said I'm sorry to hear the bad news if need to talk I'm here for you. Her response is " I want to be left alone" I say ok . She come out later and gives me a kiss, remind you we haven't been physical in 3 months and says thank you for trying to be there for me. She allows me to sleep in our bed no sex, and is very affectionate towards me. The next day we wake up she says she going to her sisters house and shell see me later comes over and gives me a kiss in front of her family. So I'm like wow, I felt good. Next few days everything seems to be ok.So I'm thinking ok she willing to work on the marriage. The day before yesterday she comes home and is real distant so I say what's wrong ? She says nothing so then I ask what are we doing because you seem like you want to work this out. She says I told you I want a divorce. I say I know but the way you've been acting I thought we were going to reconcile. She gets in a rage and say I was emotional and vulnerable and don't want this anymore. So why give me mixed signals and believe we have a chance. That broke my heart to where my love is turning to hate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shinobi (Jan 24, 2012)

RSFWID, I am sorry to hear on your situation, and can fully empathize with you as what is written here sounds like my words. My situation started about 6 weeks ago and whilst there did seem to be improvements with me trying it has hit a complete stonewall and there is no going back, yes I am crushed as well.

My situation is very similar in that she says I didn’t protect her and support her fully, although I know I have done a variety of things that have done just that but she has an answer and put down for every scenario, which makes things harder.

I made her my world and I believe it can be fixed as well, but the more I have pushed the more the force has been behind the “no it can’t be fixed” so for the last few days I have just kept to myself which is the most difficult and painful thing to do, especially as she seems to be quite comfortable and carrying on with life, particularly with her 18yo daughter, (my step daughter).

Like ReGroup says it is about detachment, doing stuff for yourself and keeping your mind busy, I switch off when they start to chat in a derogatory manner about men in general and how poor they are and sly comments about me, then go do some of the garden, play Xbox, read a book in the bath etc.

Hearing the conversation and from what she tells me I am entirely 100% to blame for this marriage failing, when I try to explain the right things she has an answer that hammers me back down, example, I went with you and looked after you through hospital and surgery, answer –anyone could have done that, it is nothing special, I say what about supporting the house and bills financially, answer –if you lived on your own you would have to pay them so that is not a benefit to me its no different to living alone. I say do regular little things like small beauty treatments, hair, massages etc., answer –I could pay someone to do that. I say what about your two kids living with us full time and supported by the pair of us for the last 8 years, answer –what about the running around I have done for your kids, the emotional support that I have to give them as you are such a cr*p father and so on, see the picture? Basically I have not done anything that any Tom, **** or Harry could off the street could have done for her.

The sexual side of it can be a real hurdle, I am looking at about 4 months since as well, but then the sex life had dwindled over the last 4-5 years for which I was rejected 4 out of 5 times, it went from cuddling up all night, to don’t touch me I feel squashed up or trapped or irritated etc., and generally felt unsupported in getting our sex life back, but now apparently the sex dwindled because of the way I made her feel, every action I have taken since day 1 has been brought up and so I am told it is entirely my fault as I have built up the cause and therefore effect over the last 10 years!! To make matters worse we still share the same bed (albeit with a large space between) and I was awoken early the other morning with sounds and motions of her self satisfying!!! Talk about adding frustration, what I would have given to have been woken to that in previous years!!

I’m taking GutPunch’s advice - If you want to save it, don't try to nice her back. Focus on you and let the rest take care of itself.

For the last 5 weeks I have been doing to save the marriage and to be frank there were obvious signs there was something happening, she was receptive, friendly and talkative, even allowed some gently physical touch, little neck kisses and cuddles, then wham a day later cold as ice, a few days to thaw and it seems good again until wham and so on, but this cold front has been a good week now and it aint thawing!! I even discussed the fact that things seemed to be moving forward, and she could only say “what gave you that impression, because I was not off with you in front of the kids”, but to start to confide in me about work, calling me at the end of her day at work as she was travelling home, allowing physical contact etc, c’mon talk about playing with my heart!! And like you said it has started to turn the love to hate, but I also know it is still very painful, and the love lingers.

ExisaWAW says a lot of sense about her saying you abandoned her and not protect her being BS, I read the No More Mr Nice Guy book and highlighted key parts of it that showed what I was, how I did things and the such, and it looks like it was printed in colour, seriously opened my eyes, and do feel that over time she has walked all over me, yet listening to her it would sound overwhelmingly like the entire opposite.

Sorry for the length of this and I am not trying to steal your thread with my own situation, but I hope that by showing another persons situation being very similar and very current it helps things through, I know I get comfort and support from TAM even just by reading and sitting in my mind that I am not alone, and hope that comes across to you as well.
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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

RS, you're getting some great advice from the other guys that have lived through similar hell. I have a lot of respect for them.

Just something to think about...

If you do the VAR/ investigating and find that she was cheating (and she probably is/ was), then what?

The reason I ask, is because at one level it doesn't really matter. I mean, it would be great to know the truth, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't change what's happening or what you should be doing from here. I totally understand why you may NEED to understand/ figure out WHY this is happening. I did the same thing but after more than a year, I finally realized she was just too damned self-centered & selfish to want to fix what she felt was wrong with our marriage & gave up to pursue her selfish interests. She should have never gotten married. She had no idea the level of sacrifice that it takes to be a good wife/ mother. It was all about her. 

It just doesn't seem fair, right? After all the love, hopes, dreams, the birth of the kids, all the mutual sacrifice & commitment to one another, how can she just walk out without really fighting for each other?? Boggles the mind, man. I'll NEVER fully understand it as long as I live & it will forever affect how I view future relationships. I will be far more skeptical & it will be difficult if not impossible for me to love someone else as deeply as I allowed myself to love my x. We trusted them to love us forever & they betrayed that trust. Their selfishness is inexcusable and has to be dealt with. That's the bottom line & the importance of the advice you will be given. The biggest question for you in my opinion is NOW WHAT/ WHERE DO YOU GO FROM HERE? 

You may want to try & put the "genie back into the bottle" by begging her to try reconciliation. Be careful. SHE must really want it. If you guilt her into it or otherwise coerce her, it will most likely backfire years from now when she betrays you again. Or worse yet, blames YOU when she cheats or walks again by saying that she wanted out years ago but you forced her to stick it out.

Divorce sucks. Betrayal sucks. I still have to interact with my x and when I look at her, I can't help but shake my head and wonder why she made the awful decisions she did. Our kids' lives will forever be changed for the worse, all our hopes & dreams are gone. It's sad beyond description. Now, if you wanted to try Divorcebusting.com or some other method of reconciliation, great...go for it. But if she refuses, don't force the issue.

The 180 is for you! Getting your life back (and mental health) is key. Getting back to being 6'7 with balls the size of watermelons is a great goal. Just keep remembering that SHE did this, not you.

Whether your wife betrayed you via an affair or not doesn't matter in my view. She betrayed the vows of "for better or for worse", etc. The books that have been suggested are MUST reads.

If she won't work on your marriage, she's walking away & you need to treat her accordingly.

What I am most concerned with (and I would guess the guys here are too) is your emotional health & the health of your children.

My life is still a work in progress (as is many of the guys here). I am doing better but still have a ways to go. Others have bounced back with a vengeance and I think that is awesome. Hopefully you will be one of those.

Hang in there. Focus on you & your kids. You will most likely never truly figure out your wife's motivations and mindset no matter how hard you try but PLEASE do not blame yourself if she simply refuses to do her part of the heavy lifting of repairing the marriage. She is choosing "the easy way out" and you really don't want to be around someone who will leave you when the going gets rough.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I suspect RSFWID wants his wife back atm or he wouldn't be on TAM coping.

To have any chance, he needs to find out if there is a POSOM.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

GutPunch said:


> I suspect RSFWID wants his wife back atm or he wouldn't be on TAM coping.
> 
> To have any chance, he needs to find out if there is a POSOM.


I'm not a betting man, but if I were, I'd give odds.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

and it's not his wife

it's the pattern


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Chuck71 said:


> and it's not his wife
> 
> it's the pattern


Thank you.

After awhile, it's actually possible to forget all these situations seem so "different" to the people involved in them.

I didn't mean to offend him or to impugn anyone's good character. Yet, the symptoms in the story literally scream "posOM"


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

He didn't "adequately celebrate" his wife... he's getting what he deserves.


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

Conrad, help me out.

I agree with you that most likely, RS's wife has another man who she's either actively involved with or planning to get involved with. Heck, she may have already had an affair and it ended.

Whichever the case, let's assume she did or is having an affair.

Now what?

Wouldn't we still want RS to do the 180, read the books, & emerge stronger much faster than he would if it were not for TAM?

Or, are we trying to actively help him repair the marriage and get her back? 

Each sitch is a little different, of course, but she has told him she wants out. Her reasons are BS and smell of an affair, other reasons, etc. It doesn't matter tho, right? She is hell-bent on getting out & will not do counseling. 

Ok, let's say he does the usual NC, 180, etc. and she continues to give him a little hope here & there but *makes no real effort herself*. I think we are wasting his time unless we make him understand that SHE must pursue reconciliation. From my experience and all the threads I've read, that's what has to happen or it's game over anyway. 

He cannot beg his way back into her heart. If he does NC & 180 and she doesn't react by CLEARLY asking for reconciliation and pursuing HIM, then all that's in store for him is brain damage and more angst & suffering if we suggest he do anything but say goodbye and move on with his life by distancing himself from the person his wife turned out to be. It is clear to me that he is in love with who she was, not who she's become.

Having lived through all my pre D horror before finding TAM, the one thing I would have loved to have done differently is not to have pined over my ex. It doesn't work, it pushes them further away, & it damages our self-respect. I'm already seeing this kind of behavior in him by his misreading the crumbs of affection she is tossing his way as some kind of hope that she still wants to be together. 

Every remotely kind thing she does will be misinterpreted. I'm all for hope, as it's one of God's greatest gifts, but she's made her intentions clear. She wants a D. The more he tries to pull her close, the more she will push him away. He has to gather up the courage to tell her that marriage takes work from both parties and she must commit to work things out. If she does not, then as painful as it is, he must let her go or he will suffer even more. And, mark my words here... if she is a true WAW, she will show no remorse or empathy for the pain she has caused him or their children. Heck, she will actually get angry with him when/ if he tries to show her love and/ or affection. Remember, he & the marriage are now her mortal enemies, standing in the way of her lost "happiness". All he can do is set her free to go and find it. 

Btw, the next question is whether or not WAWs actually find their lost "happiness". The truth is that most of us never know because they CANNOT ever admit they were wrong because they build up an impenetrable wall around them to shield anything from getting in that would change their minds. This wall is a defense/ coping mechanism and even if they struggle financially or emotionally after the D, they will seldom look back or admit they made a mistake. They are dysfunctional and the dysfunction prevents it. I have seen on rare occasion, especially due to a financial crisis, some WAWs showing interest in their LBS but most of the time the LBS has fully healed & now recognizes their former spouse for what they are and no longer are interested in reconciliation. 

He must go NC & do the 180 (for him). I believe the benefits are to help him heal/ move on and IF there's a chance at her changing her tune as he implements these (a secondary benefit), SHE must change course & pursue HIM and through her ACTIONS (not words) and make it clear she wants to rededicate herself to the marriage (then they can try Divorcebusting, etc.). 

I have a tendency to ramble in my posts but the last paragraph is a good summary.

What do y'all think?


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Regroup,
what do you mean by 'i did'nt adequately celebrate my wife?


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Thanks shonobi, for the words. good luck with ur situation man


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

what's the pattern/ If you see something idont let me know. right now im not seethings clearly because of my situation. i NEED ALL THE HELP I CAN GET


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

This threads stinks of POSOM.

Marriage has no chance with him around.

He needs to expose this to OMW and her family.
I mean blow this affair up to everyone.

More often than not, the affair dies shortly thereafter. 

This may knock her out of the fog.

By no means should he break NC or actively pursue reconciliation.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

RSFWID said:


> what's the pattern/ If you see something idont let me know. right now im not seethings clearly because of my situation. i NEED ALL THE HELP I CAN GET


Do not leave your home.

She wants divorce....then she can leave.

Start reading the investigative thread in the CWI forum. 

Phone records, keylogger, VAR etc. 

Do it!

Stop trying to talk to her. It's pointless.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Society is producing a certain breed of men that women are growing to detest: The Nice Guy.

We've been programmed to act one way and it's producing these "situations" in bunches. 

Everything society has taught you, is WRONG.

When you started your thread, you stated: "She Was My Whole World"... That was the first red flag that stuck out to me.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Running Joke on the Bull Winkle Thread:

Yahoo! Shine - Women's Lifestyle | Healthy Living and Fashion Blogs


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> Stop trying to talk to her. It's pointless.


I agree somewhat. Don't try to convince her to stay for sure. Move fwd with NC & 180 for sure. Investigate potential posOM if you must, but if you don't find anyone, it doesn't matter.

Yes, she may be in an affair fog. Getting her to think straight & having any chance of reconciliation while this is going on is pointless, I agree.

However, the point I am trying to make is that if you can't find any evidence of an affair, it doesn't mean that she hasn't had one, only that you couldn't prove it.

Another point is that whether she is in an affair fog or a WAW fog, it's all the same. She wants out & RS is "the cause" of her unhappiness.


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## Shinobi (Jan 24, 2012)

RSFWID always happy to help out. I will say though be wary. I thought there was a way through over the last few weeks, even had a good holiday last week with chat, laughter and communication, even some minor physical contact, and to me all for the good, when I raised it she had other ideas over it, she was just being nice apparently.
I have found out today not that she knows I know that she is applying to put a hold on the house that is in my name only so that I can not sell it or do anything with it without an agreed signed settlement or court order. I don't have a problem with this really as I saw a solicitor today and was told she has a right to part of the equity so would have to give in the order or settlement, but it comes underhand, e.g will be arriving in the post to me as if it is going to be a shock and panic state.
Just be careful, protect yourself and take care of you first. I will, as Im sure many will, listen to what you have going on, but anytime.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

ExisaWAW said:


> I agree somewhat. Don't try to convince her to stay for sure. Move fwd with NC & 180 for sure. Investigate potential posOM if you must, but if you don't find anyone, it doesn't matter.
> 
> Yes, she may be in an affair fog. Getting her to think straight & having any chance of reconciliation while this is going on is pointless, I agree.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> Do not leave your home.
> 
> She wants divorce....then she can leave.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

I want to get away for a few days should I tell her I'm going away

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

What business is it of hers?

Be mysterious - just go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> What business is it of hers?
> 
> Be mysterious - just go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm fine with that but I don't want to come back and the locks are changed
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

If she does call the cops.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Before you leave put vars in the house and car you may get some answers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> I never hit , cheat , threaten or intimidate her. But there is times when I look back, I manipulated her in certain situations and I feel horrible about it. My situation, meaning really boils down to money. I made a decision to go to school because I wanted better for my family. She wasnt happy about it. During that time she had to carry the load which was really ruff on her. in the process she lost her job, which made it harder. Now her and her families problem with me, and I say family because I know there pushing her to do this or she' sleeping with someone else. Is that when I finished school and I could find a job in my current field. I should've gotten a job doing something else. Now that I look back I should've done what ever I could've to take the load of her. That was my fault,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That does not make for a divorce. From the information you have given, this is on her.

Could be society whispering in her ear and her thinking she can "have it all and more", if only she wasn't "tied down by a husband". This seems to be happening more and more. More likely she is with, has been with or wants to be with another man. Most spouses that refuse to consider working on things, have lined up an "option" before letting their spouse know its over.

Either way, STOP shouldering all the blame. A lot of this appears to be on her. Don't try to own her problems, stick to your own.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

RSFWID said:


> I'm fine with that but I don't want to come back and the locks are changed
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Call a locksmith. They will open for you.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Shinobi said:


> RSFWID always happy to help out. I will say though be wary. I thought there was a way through over the last few weeks, even had a good holiday last week with chat, laughter and communication, even some minor physical contact, and to me all for the good, when I raised it she had other ideas over it, she was just being nice apparently.
> I have found out today not that she knows I know that she is applying to put a hold on the house that is in my name only so that I can not sell it or do anything with it without an agreed signed settlement or court order. I don't have a problem with this really as I saw a solicitor today and was told she has a right to part of the equity so would have to give in the order or settlement, but it comes underhand, e.g will be arriving in the post to me as if it is going to be a shock and panic state.
> Just be careful, protect yourself and take care of you first. I will, as Im sure many will, listen to what you have going on, but anytime.


These woman are so conniving , example I left this am and just came home when I unlocked the door to get in, she put thd chain on the door. So I knock on the door she takes the chain off so I why the .... You put the chain on? She says I didn't know if you were coming back. Bs, I said I still live here until I move out and who ever you were talking to he can have because I don't want you anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> These woman are so conniving , example I left this am and just came home when I unlocked the door to get in, she put thd chain on the door. So I knock on the door she takes the chain off so I why the .... You put the chain on? She says I didn't know if you were coming back. Bs, I said I still live here until I move out and who ever you were talking to he can have because I don't want you anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But deep down I do, but I'm trying not show it. It really hurts being in the same house with STBXW , if I had somewhere else to go I would probably just leave. Because being in this situation with all this tension is very unhealthy. I mean how do you go forward if you can't get away from the past?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> But deep down I do, but I'm trying not show it. It really hurts being in the same house with STBXW , if I had somewhere else to go I would probably just leave. Because being in this situation with all this tension is very unhealthy. I mean how do you go forward if you can't get away from the past?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You just have to follow the process. We have read hundreds of threads & lived through our own sitches as well. As difficult as NC & 180 may be, they're proven methods for allowing you to get away from the past. Your wife will have reactions to them both. NC & 180 will shift a lol of control to you. 

This feels much better than allowing her to call the shots and have control of your emotions. It will be interesting to see how your sitch plays out. We are all rooting for you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shinobi (Jan 24, 2012)

RSFWID said:


> But deep down I do, but I'm trying not show it. It really hurts being in the same house with STBXW , if I had somewhere else to go I would probably just leave. Because being in this situation with all this tension is very unhealthy. I mean how do you go forward if you can't get away from the past?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know you want her and it hurts, I'm right with you right now, this morning we got into a brief but amicably start of some kind of agreement. Oh it stings but it is part of the healing process, and just consider it has to get better. Try looking at your situation in a wider picture, fewer emotions, work out a plan that is going to suit you and perhaps try to open up some amicable discussions on what may be done and it may push things along to get you in a better place to fix yourself up ongoing. Just try to focus on yourself. And hope you get something good soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

ExisaWAW said:


> You just have to follow the process. We have read hundreds of threads & lived through our own sitches as well. As difficult as NC & 180 may be, they're proven methods for allowing you to get away from the past. Your wife will have reactions to them both. NC & 180 will shift a lol of control to you.
> 
> This feels much better than allowing her to call the shots and have control of your emotions. It will be interesting to see how your sitch plays out. We are all rooting for you!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I believe in the method that's why I'm doing my best to use it. Right now I'm trying to focus on finding another job. But I never thought in wiidest dreams I would not be able to function. Does this type of situation really cause that much pain?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Tremendous pain. 

But it does go away.

Focus on you.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> Tremendous pain.
> 
> But it does go away.
> 
> Focus on you.


I just got back in the house and she all dressed up. So I'm saying to myself what the hell that's how you go to work? I'm furious right now but I didn't say anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

RSFWID said:


> I just got back in the house and she all dressed up. So I'm saying to myself what the hell that's how you go to work? I'm furious right now but I didn't say anything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Where's your focus? ON HER

Time for you to hit the gym, read some books etc.

Employ the 180 and detach.

Do your best to not let her know she is getting to you.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> Where's your focus? ON HER
> 
> Time for you to hit the gym, read some books etc.
> 
> ...


You guys really have this down to a science. I have a lot of respect for you guys
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

RSFWID said:


> You guys really have this down to a science. I have a lot of respect for you guys
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No one understands unless they have lived it.

School of Hard Knocks.

You will get thru this.

You will be a stronger man. 

Love thyself time.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

RSFWID said:


> I just got back in the house and she all dressed up.


Are you planning on leaving the house, or is she moving out?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Crap..lost all the text. 

RSFWID, rule out an affair first. If she is having an affair, you need to follow a different strategy. Keylog the home computer, check her phone records and check if she is actually where she said she would be


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> I believe in the method that's why I'm doing my best to use it. Right now I'm trying to focus on finding another job. But I never thought in wiidest dreams I would not be able to function. Does this type of situation really cause that much pain?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Best of luck at the job search. I don't remember if you are still employed or not but if you are, do not quit your current job before you land another. I did this 18 months ago & boy do I regret it!

The economy is still very soft!

As for the pain, I've never experienced anything like it. But, my sitch was a little different because it involved my xW's adultery/ betrayal. 

Everyone reacts differently but WAWs often leave the LBS scratching their heads and in terrible pain.

If you follow the advice here, you may avoid much of the pain.


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

Chuck, I agree completely! I actually think it's a combination of indoctrination of males and the emancipation/ Oprah-fication of many women.

Men are taught to put women on a pedestal and put them first and woman are taught to think of men as controlling and are encouraged to break-free and be the masters of their own destiny.

Granted, this is a generalization, but there's something to it.

So-called "modern women" are conditioned to believe they don't need a man to be "happy" and they begin to devalue their mates & the sacrifices they make to be the major breadwinners, etc. are likewise devalued.

Let's think about it, in divorce, many women end up with the house, the kids, & a steady supply of child support and they get rid of the "controlling" man to relive their youth & date around for a perceived "upgrade". Wow, were do I sign!! 

It's unbelievably sad to see so many degreed professional women walk away from their marriages and force their children to live in single-parent home so they can "escape" the Mom/ wife role to reclaim their lost "happiness". 

I wish I could find the article I read awhile back that was talking about some of the reasons the divorce rates spike in poor economies. It also discussed the growing trend of women that seemingly up and walk away from their marriages without counseling or any other formal attempts at reconciliation.

It's a sad situation.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> Crap..lost all the text.
> 
> RSFWID, rule out an affair first. If she is having an affair, you need to follow a different strategy. Keylog the home computer, check her phone records and check if she is actually where she said she would be


It's hard to do that because we desperate computers. The only way to find out is to follow her and I'm not a stalker. But at this point does it really matter? The damage is already done, you can't force someone to love you. Suppose I could, would I really want that? I thought what we had was sacred and no matter what we would be able to persevere and adapt to any challenge. The only thing in life that is constant, is change. That is exactly what this is. You know what really hurts the most, there were times we arguments and she would tell to get out knowing I had no where to go and I would leave and sleep in my car. Then she would beg me to come back, the last time it happened I wasn't going to. But I gave her another chance, but she can't try to go to MC and try work this out. Now that is abandonment
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

HappyKaty said:


> Are you planning on leaving the house, or is she moving out?


I will leave
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> No one understands unless they have lived it.
> 
> School of Hard Knocks.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shinobi (Jan 24, 2012)

RSFWID I am right with you, after her asking me to leave this morning, I obliged with info to let her move on. I started preparations to leave and move on. This afternoon she calls me and there is duscussion on why we are here, a general point, not the previous cos of you and your actions and reconciliation is on. I am sat right now having entered into discussion, but prepared to walk away and she finds fault and storms off like I have done wrong, this time I AM prepared to leave and left her to it. I spent the last 4 weeks saving thus against a cold shoulder, to be given a life line when I say ok to going only to be cited as the issue straight off. I dont think so. Hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Shinobi said:


> RSFWID I am right with you, after her asking me to leave this morning, I obliged with info to let her move on. I started preparations to leave and move on. This afternoon she calls me and there is duscussion on why we are here, a general point, not the previous cos of you and your actions and reconciliation is on. I am sat right now having entered into discussion, but prepared to walk away and she finds fault and storms off like I have done wrong, this time I AM prepared to leave and left her to it. I spent the last 4 weeks saving thus against a cold shoulder, to be given a life line when I say ok to going only to be cited as the issue straight off. I dont think so. Hang in there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you guys going to work it out?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

Shinobi said:


> RSFWID I am right with you, after her asking me to leave this morning, I obliged with info to let her move on. I started preparations to leave and move on. This afternoon she calls me and there is duscussion on why we are here, a general point, not the previous cos of you and your actions and reconciliation is on. I am sat right now having entered into discussion, but prepared to walk away and she finds fault and storms off like I have done wrong, this time I AM prepared to leave and left her to it. I spent the last 4 weeks saving thus against a cold shoulder, to be given a life line when I say ok to going only to be cited as the issue straight off. I dont think so. Hang in there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good luck. While talking through issues is good, counselors provide a neutral party who can set up ground rules and keep the discussion constructive and from getting into a screaming match.

You are correct, she will blame you. That's how it works. Real progress can only be made it BOTH sides are honest & agree to their parts. 

Once both parties admit to their roles & calm down, real progress is possible. Don't let her blame-shift, but admit your part.


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## Shinobi (Jan 24, 2012)

RSFWID said:


> Are you guys going to work it out?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know, she basically opened up the conversation this afternoon after giving heave ho this morning, I have given it weeks to try to solve it with nothing. She wants to talk, I have to pick up the kids, when I come back I dont enter into conversation immediately letting the kids settle, apparently that shows the marriage is not priority, but I been trying for weeks. So now im frozen out again, but I am prepared to walk away to get what I want, and I was pushed to the point of preparing to leave anyway. I dont know how this is now going to play out, but I have admitted my faults and willing to work on them, it just doesnt seem enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Shinobi said:


> I don't know, she basically opened up the conversation this afternoon after giving heave ho this morning, I have given it weeks to try to solve it with nothing. She wants to talk, I have to pick up the kids, when I come back I dont enter into conversation immediately letting the kids settle, apparently that shows the marriage is not priority, but I been trying for weeks. So now im frozen out again, but I am prepared to walk away to get what I want, and I was pushed to the point of preparing to leave anyway. I dont know how this is now going to play out, but I have admitted my faults and willing to work on them, it just doesnt seem enough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My STBEXW just texted me and said she has mediation date!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

RSFWID - 

I'm sorry you are going through this, while also trying to establish your career -- did you find a job, yet? I know how hard it is to function when operating under such duress, but you have to maintain so as not to let your siutation deteriorate further, employment-wise and financially.

Sorry you got word she is going ahead with mediation, and I understand the fear this must evoke as a step closer to D. But it will at least bring clarity, as to what your situation may look like move forward -- so you can start making plans to situate yourself as best you can for rebuilding and starting a new chapter, if that's where this is headed.

Hang in there and stay strong!

Best Wishes, - A12


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Awakening2012 said:


> RSFWID -
> 
> I'm sorry you are going through this, while also trying to establish your career -- did you find a job, yet? I know how hard it is to function when operating under such duress, but you have to maintain so as not to let your siutation deteriorate further, employment-wise and financially.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mediation on Wednesday, how should I proceed?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Just respond to her text about the mediation appointment with "OK" -- nothing more.

As much as you don't like this and didn't want it, it will be in your best interest to slow up and participate. Try to think through beforehand what are your priorities in the negotiations. It would not hurt to consult with a lawyer beforehand, to get informed about what the law allows in your state. Also, try to keep as business-like as possible and show no emotion.

So sorry, but that's your best option,I'm afraid.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Best, A12


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Awakening2012 said:


> Just respond to her text about the mediation appointment with "OK" -- nothing more.
> 
> As much as you don't like this and didn't want it, it will be in your best interest to slow up and participate. Try to think through beforehand what are your priorities in the negotiations. It would not hurt to consult with a lawyer beforehand, to get informed about what the law allows in your state. Also, try to keep as business-like as possible and show no emotion.
> 
> ...


Ok, just like gut punch said the pain is tremendous!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> Ok, just like gut punch said the pain is tremendous!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I drove 16 hrs to get away and clear my head. The whole time all I could do is think about the situation. My family said they could see the pain in my face
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Shinobi said:


> RSFWID I am right with you, after her asking me to leave this morning, I obliged with info to let her move on. I started preparations to leave and move on. This afternoon she calls me and there is duscussion on why we are here, a general point, not the previous cos of you and your actions and reconciliation is on. I am sat right now having entered into discussion, but prepared to walk away and she finds fault and storms off like I have done wrong, this time I AM prepared to leave and left her to it. I spent the last 4 weeks saving thus against a cold shoulder, to be given a life line when I say ok to going only to be cited as the issue straight off. I dont think so. Hang in there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How's it going brother? For me I'm pretty much still trying to get through the pain. I went away for the weekend to clear my head and try to process everything that is going on. Last night I was going through some photos of my kids with my family and her pic pops up and starting feeling hurt again. I woke up this am with the urge to call her and see how she was doing but I did not. I really want to know what is the real driving force behind this divorce. And is there so much damage that it is beyond repair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi RSFWID - 

I'm glad you were able to get away and see family -- I hope they gave you the love and support you deserve. Sorry you are still hurting, but it is quite natural as it is still early days for you in the process. You must have some inkling of the driving force behind the detrioration of the marriage? Usually, both parties share some of the fault -- it takes two to tango. 

Feel better, and hang in there!

Best Wishes, A12


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Awakening2012 said:


> Hi RSFWID -
> 
> I'm glad you were able to get away and see family -- I hope they gave you the love and support you deserve. Sorry you are still hurting, but it is quite natural as it is still early days for you in the process. You must have some inkling of the driving force behind the detrioration of the marriage? Usually, both parties share some of the fault -- it takes two to tango.
> 
> ...


Hi AW,
I do have a big part in the demise of my M and I acknowledge that. I've tried every that I could think of to save it. i offered to go MC and found one. She refused. She know about all the hardships i had to overcome in life. she knows had no family growing and pretty much had to raise myself. After all the hardships we endured, she is not willing to embrace for better or worse. I don't believe in D, and when I took that vow for better or worse I meant it. I believe there is someone else. If there is why can't she be adult and just tell me if there is. All the signs point to that. Read my first post and you tell me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

A woman's perspective on why one might suddenly decide, after everything one has been through, to simply pull the plug.

-When a man in the marriage goes through a depression (a year) or has lost his confidence, and the woman is left to carry the load, YES something breaks. Respect. How a woman sees her husband. That is a game changer. Some women are quite strong, and will simply go thru the motions, do what needs to be done, and wait things out. Especially if kids are involved. They become first. 

When the time is right (financially), the urge to finish the game will become quite strong. Emotionally, detachment happened a long time ago. 

Why don't we speak up and make it known what's going on?
We are not heartless people. Would bringing all this up to someone who is not in the state of mind to handle it be fair, to the kids, to each other? We try. It goes unheard.

Once there is a glimmer that a man has enough self confidence to HEAR what is being said.. it's often too late. 

It's really easy to say it's all her fault for not bringing it to light sooner and talking about it. 

It's really easy to say that a husband should know what his role is in the marriage, and if he isn't doing it.... there may be consequences. A woman with boundaries will walk. When the time is right, if kids are involved. Some will find what they are looking for elsewhere. 

Not wanting to judge you at all, seriously. Just felt compelled to share a woman's perspective on these things. As one who has been thru some "hard times" and my husband did not step up, until it was too late. I don't blame him. He did the best he could do. The problem is, I realised his best is the standard bar I was looking at for the rest of my life. The next "hard time?" I'd rather not have to carry him too. He needs a different kind of spouse than I do. That's okay. It's just the truth.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi RSFWID -

Have you been able to do some sleuthing to find out if there is an OM? Standard advice on TAM is to find out some way, some how. Because if there is infidelity, there are different stratgies than if not.

Best Regards,- A12


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

deejov said:


> A woman's perspective on why one might suddenly decide, after everything one has been through, to simply pull the plug.
> 
> -When a man in the marriage goes through a depression (a year) or has lost his confidence, and the woman is left to carry the load, YES something breaks. Respect. How a woman sees her husband. That is a game changer. Some women are quite strong, and will simply go thru the motions, do what needs to be done, and wait things out. Especially if kids are involved. They become first.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the reply. 
I never loss my confidence, I was just stressed. I went out everyday to find employment during that time. A lot places wanted me to have experience in the field I was in and that was something I didn't have. We had conversations where I express to her that I was sorry that things were taking than I have planned. We decided in the next month if cant find something in my current field that I would look some else. And I agreed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

OP,
I don't mean to blame you, really. It happened the way it did, and it cannot be changed. If you did your best, that is all you could do.
I'm just saying from a woman's perspective.. (especially if she has kids)...there can be a lack of respect that develops if you make a decision to make a change, and it puts a risk to the stability of the family. Does that make any sense to you?


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

deejov said:


> OP,
> I don't mean to blame you, really. It happened the way it did, and it cannot be changed. If you did your best, that is all you could do.
> I'm just saying from a woman's perspective.. (especially if she has kids)...there can be a lack of respect that develops if you make a decision to make a change, and it puts a risk to the stability of the family. Does that make any sense to you?


Absolutely, that's was my fault and Im deeply sorry for that.
The question in my mind is how do you make that right. If you know in your heart that you're a better man than what was shown, how do fix your relationship at this point. From a women's perspective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Rsfwid

Why won't she tell you if there is someone else? Why won't she go to a MC?

Because then she would have to admit to herself and to you and to her family that She takes ownership in 50% of the issues that are killing your marriage.

So it is easier to look you in the eye, push for the divorce and continue to blame you for all of it.

Accept her challenge.

Put a positive spin on everything. Freshen up your look. Drop those extra pounds.

Push for the prenup.

And fight for what is yours.

Use the VARs to get a look into what she is really doing.

What state do you live in?

And get your own attorney. He'll, let her pay for it since she wants a divorce so badly......

HM


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Rsfwid
> 
> Why won't she tell you if there is someone else? Why won't she go to a MC?
> 
> ...


OP, you have a TAM Titan helping you now... Follow his advise to the last detail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Rsfwid
> 
> Why won't she tell you if there is someone else? Why won't she go to a MC?
> 
> ...


I'm in ny. What is VAR and how do I get it. I have a mediation date for Wednesday. She has all the money . I have nothing 0.
She has a strong support system financially. And I don't I have no job. Now what. ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> I'm in ny. What is VAR and how do I get it. I have a mediation date for Wednesday. She has all the money . I have nothing 0.
> She has a strong support system financially. And I don't I have no job. Now what. ?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is a VAR?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

RSFWID said:


> . You know what really hurts the most, there were times we arguments and she would tell to get out knowing I had no where to go and I would leave and sleep in my car. Then she would beg me to come back, the last time it happened I wasn't going to. But I gave her another chance, but she can't try to go to MC and try work this out. Now that is abandonment
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How many times has this happened? Recently?
What were the arguments about?
Have you resolved any of those issues?

This speaks to me in the sense that you should be taking a good hard look at the past few months, and you will have your answers as to "what" she needs from you in a relationship.

I'm trying to be kind with this comment... but it smells of doormat. Emotionally, it's hard... but maybe try to do a few simple things. 

List all the qualities you have that make you a great man, father, husband. 

Don't forget them. That is what makes you who you are. 

Now list any reasons WHY you would allow someone to take that away from you?

Now consider that everything you list... is your opinion. The way you see it. Today. 

Consider that she sees YOU as the man she kicked to the curb to sleep in the car. And you did it. 

You can change that. Immediately.

and btw... I wouldn't leave the house. If she wants out so badly and does not want to work on anything she can leave. 
If she's so independent and doesn't need you, she'll figure it out. Do not move out without a legal agreement in your hands, signed. Who takes what, who owns what. Ask her to write it up, or get her lawyer to do it.

In the meantime, you work on finding a job. You work on yourself. You observe. 

It's hard to be in the same house with her... but wouldn't it be wonderful to take charge of your own life?


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

deejov said:


> How many times has this happened? Recently?
> What were the arguments about?
> Have you resolved any of those issues?
> 
> ...


Your right , I should've never left. What's done is done will never make that mistake again. As far as her moving out, she own it not me. Prenup, but in the mean time ill ill ficus o. Trying to find a job, and bettering myself. I've never been a doormat. I was just trying to give her space. I used be a 0 tolerance type of man. I didn't take any crap and didn't play games with any one. That person I used be was not be messed with. I had no heart because. I was abandoned a young age and grew up on my own. And that's how I feel now, that's why I'm in so much pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Feel your pain, this is a very tough situation.
One day at a time, one step at a time.

I don't know laws in NY, but if it's your marital home, normally one spouse cannot kick the other out.. .leaving you homeless. 

Sounds like you are doing what you need to do, and you do have some family support. That's a good start. Keep your head up, things will get easier day by day.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

If someone has not already answered the question, VAR = voice activated recorder. I had never heard of it either. It is an evidence gathering tool. You leave it under the driver's seat of her car. It will help you find out if there is an OM involved, which you need to know because that's a different ballgame.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

deejov said:


> Feel your pain, this is a very tough situation.
> One day at a time, one step at a time.
> 
> I don't know laws in NY, but if it's your marital home, normally one spouse cannot kick the other out.. .leaving you homeless.
> ...


Now I do and I thank god for that. Thank you for the support.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

The laws in NY are no fault.

You can talk to an attorney for a free consultation.

Do that.

And yes you need to find a job and better yourself.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> The laws in NY are no fault.
> 
> You can talk to an attorney for a free consultation.
> 
> ...


So I just came back from my trip and it was really refreshing. I mean, I really needed to get and clear my head to figure out my next move. So after driving 40 hr I was able to process my feelings as well as my life. I've come to conclusion that I might have made some terrible mistakes and I did. But I tried to save my M by asking her to go to MC and she refused. That really hurt me, and it still hurts. This is the time for me to do me. I have forgiving myself for the pain I caused this marriage and that is the first step. I love her to death and I always will because we shared a special bond. But loving her is not going to help me get to where I need to be in life at this moment. Life throws us so many curveballs and for every door that closes another one opens. After meeting my family for the time. I felt what is was like to have a loving family that will support you no matter what. It felt good. All this time I was going through this D I had no family support and she did, for which I think made her stronger. Now I know I don't gave to go through this alone. God never gives you more than you can handle and he always provides a way. That's exactly what he did for me. And for that I'm am very grateful. So my point is that if this path that god has chosen for me, than I will embrace and walk with my head up high. I will no longer beg someone to love me enough to help me save our marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

When you are with the right person you never have to beg.


Focus on you and find that right person that deserves you.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> When you are with the right person you never have to beg.
> 
> 
> Focus on you and find that right person that deserves you.


So I get up this am and the STBXW ask me why can't I find a room, it's not fair to her that I stay here she have pay all the bills. i said I have no where to go and don't have job. She also says its no fair that I stay here and make her unhappy. I'm being selfish. ??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Don't go anywhere.

Reconsider when you have a job and can be self sufficient, but she wants out, she moves out seems logical to me.

What exactly is fair about her kicking you when your down?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Face her looking at the mirror.

Tell her it is that person that is making herself unhappy.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Face her looking at the mirror.
> 
> Tell her it is that person that is making herself unhappy.


This crap is crazy. Why is she trying to make this hard for me. I had a new job last week and lost it because I couldn't function properly. I started having chest pain and couldn't take it. Come to find out I had angia. I couldnt go back to work the next day, doctors orders. I cslled my employer i told them and they said that missing those days off would interfere with my training so they had to let me go. The doctor told me that it's brought on by emotion stress and I really need destress or I could have a heart attack. So I left for couple a days to clear my mind. I come back and she pulls this crap. I mean she knows I have no where to go.why is she doing this. There has to be someone else!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Chuck71 said:


> see. sweetie.......we took this thing called vows,
> 
> back in the day, remember? well we are still married, ain't we?
> 
> ...


Do really have to go that far? That's what happens when you try to be the bigger person and Amit you were wrong, they use that as weakness and try to run all over you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Chuck71 said:


> well.....are you right now, right or wrong?
> 
> example above is to honestly shut her up
> 
> ...


I think she wants me gone so she doesn't have to fill the guilt when she looks at me. I want to catch her so ill know the truth, when I ask her she tells me no. I doubt she would tell me anyway because she knows there will be he.. to pay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Chuck71 said:


> Cheaters are liars by the very basic fabric of their being
> 
> she is PO'd you are there because she now has to bang POSOM
> 
> ...


I mean if betrayed me in that then I would go to court myself and get everything I'm entitled to. From support to half of everything. I would not cause anyone physical harm. But I would be extremly upset. I'm at a very low point in my life right now, and there is plenty of times where I could have step out on our M, but didn't. Three months with no s.. Is a long time in my book.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Chuck71 said:


> if sex has been stopped, that is a red flag for cheating
> 
> btw.....you are entitled to half everything whether she cheated or not


I'm tired of the pain of being a failure. I don't want live anymore. Thank you for the support.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> I'm tired of the pain of being a failure. I don't want live anymore. Thank you for the support.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How long have you felt that way?

I suffered extreme depression, don't shrug it off as weakness if that is what you are experiencing.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Northern Monkey said:


> How long have you felt that way?
> 
> I suffered extreme depression, don't shrug it off as weakness if that is what you are experiencing.


I'm going to end this one or another. All my life all I did was try to be best I could and its never good enough
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> I'm going to end this one or another. All my life all I did was try to be best I could and its never good enough
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So stop trying to be good enough for others. Just be good enough for you.

This isn't empty bullshyt. I've been there. I've come *very* close. 

Let me say one thing.

ALL of the best things in my life came after I decided not to end it all.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

RSFWID

You have to take baby steps.

Stop the stupid talk and focus on what you need to do.

1. Get healthy.
2. Get a job.
3. Get rid of your wife I mean your stress. 

Now focus. Ignore her for now.

4. Get a good attorney consult under your belt and know your rights.

HM


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Please PM and let me know how you are.

I hope you have some family you can lean on.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Please PM and let me know how you are.
> 
> I hope you have some family you can lean on.


I'm ok, hopefully I should be out tomorrow. I was carrying a lot of weight on my shoulders for z long time. This had to happen in order for me to get better and move forward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shinobi (Jan 24, 2012)

Hey, mate you keep on in there and keep in mind yourself and what is going to do you good. I just caught up on the thread and its good you got chance to clear your head. I know it causes pain and sorry for the effect on your job, but think this way, if it happened once there will be another job, and if you can get your mind healthy and fit it will work out. 
Keep ongoing!
Myself well after a talk all Friday and Saturday we came to a kind of truce and understanding, it was a small light and even ended up intimate, but since the weekend other issues have been brought up and it is either entirely my fault or down to me to make good, plus arguments start at the drop of a hat, so that light is a pin prick right now, the only difference from last week is instead of carte Blanche no discussion there has been dialogue and I'm still in the house, but I still have my plans and am prepared to go, if it looks like its going badly. My difference is that I am not pushing, just seeing how it pans out, although the big thing is that which has been spoken of, and that is making someone love you again, I am aware that may well not happen, or happen enough for it to be right, in the meantime I concentrate on me and try to switch of those things that seem to get thrown in there to wind me up.
Keep smiling as much as you can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> I'm ok, hopefully I should be out tomorrow. I was carrying a lot of weight on my shoulders for z long time. This had to happen in order for me to get better and move forward.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Get Well RSFWID.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Please seek and accept whatever help you can get.

Depression isn't weakness, don't hide from it.

If as it sounds you have tried to act on these dark thoughts you need to get help now.

Be honest with the medical staff about where your at.

My thoughts are with you.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Northern Monkey said:


> Please seek and accept whatever help you can get.
> 
> Depression isn't weakness, don't hide from it.
> 
> ...


Thank you guys for your support, I'm ok
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> Thank you guys for your support, I'm ok
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wanna thank the 30 or so people on here that have been supportive to me. May god bless you. I had a crisis in my life where all the stree and frustration I've been caring around for years had to come out. I've gathers from this experience is that you should never be ashamed to ask for help. Sometimes in life we go through things and the pain it cause feels so unbearable at time, and you may feel you have no where to turn. That's exactly how felt a few days ago. It doesn't mean that we are weak or failures, it just means we need a little help to get to where we need to be. I did something a few days ago that will forever change my life, and no matter how severe of an act it was. It's also save my life. So with that being said . Everyone on this forum is going through some type pain, and all I ask is don't be afraid to ask for help, nor be ashamed to so. God has a plan and purpose for all of us. What that may be , who knows. But when you find out embrace it and do the best you can. I wish everyone on here the best. Thank you for taking the time to here me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

RSFWID said:


> I wanna thank the 30 or so people on here that have been supportive to me. May god bless you. I had a crisis in my life where all the stree and frustration I've been caring around for years had to come out. I've gathers from this experience is that you should never be ashamed to ask for help. Sometimes in life we go through things and the pain it cause feels so unbearable at time, and you may feel you have no where to turn. That's exactly how felt a few days ago. It doesn't mean that we are weak or failures, it just means we need a little help to get to where we need to be. I did something a few days ago that will forever change my life, and no matter how severe of an act it was. It's also save my life. So with that being said . Everyone on this forum is going through some type pain, and all I ask is don't be afraid to ask for help, nor be ashamed to so. God has a plan and purpose for all of us. What that may be , who knows. But when you find out embrace it and do the best you can. I wish everyone on here the best. Thank you for taking the time to here me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


God Bless

Remember pain is only temporary.

...and you decide how temporary.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Can't like this enough.

RSFWID, you hold the keys to your cage.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Northern Monkey said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> Can't like this enough.
> 
> RSFWID, you hold the keys to your cage.


My W wants to R, says she didn't know how much pain I was in over the years. Has agreed to go to MC? I don't know what to take of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

RSFWID said:


> My W wants to R, says she didn't know how much pain I was in over the years. Has agreed to go to MC? I don't know what to take of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Decide if you want to go to MC or not. If you do, then go and see what happens.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

06Daddio08 said:


> Decide if you want to go to MC or not. If you do, then go and see what happens.


If definitely going because i want it to work. Just surprised it took all this to bring us back together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Empty and lost*



RSFWID said:


> If definitely going because i want it to work. Just surprised it took all this to bring us back together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You going there to just listen to what you "have to do" to please her?


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

06Daddio08 said:


> You going there to just listen to what you "have to do" to please her?


No, I'm going to see what we need to do to make our M better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> No, I'm going to see what we need to do to make our M better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Out the hospital today. Happy to be out. Man what a ride, never knew I had so much emotion built up inside me. Today starts my new journey and what the future has in store for me. Ill be in IC once a week until I'm 100% again. My W wants to go to MC and has already made an appointment for us. St this point in my life it's going to be one day at a time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Thanks for letting us know, I am personally very glad to hear you were in a safe place, and now moving forward. 

One day at a time is an awesome way to look at life, and do keep posting. When is your MC appt?


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

deejov said:


> Thanks for letting us know, I am personally very glad to hear you were in a safe place, and now moving forward.
> 
> One day at a time is an awesome way to look at life, and do keep posting. When is your MC appt?


Thanks, this Wednesday, so ill see what happens
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Hopefully her making the appointment is a positive sign but I think the IC should be your focus initially. 

You can only figure out how to be with her, when you figure out how to be with yourself

I do think MC is a good step but one day at a time sounds excellent to me.

The dark cloud is horrible to be under and I will truly be rooting for you in your journey out from under it. 

For me, just "feeling" at all, even the bad stuff, felt like a big step forward from the numbness I had felt before.


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Northern Monkey said:


> Hopefully her making the appointment is a positive sign but I think the IC should be your focus initially.
> 
> You can only figure out how to be with her, when you figure out how to be with yourself
> 
> ...


I can definitely relate to that. My main focus is to put my life back into perspective, and overcome my issues. By doing so ill become a better person, father and H. I was able to get an interview for a new job this week so I'm happy for that. This my new outlook on life. One day at a time
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> I can definitely relate to that. My main focus is to put my life back into perspective, and overcome my issues. By doing so ill become a better person, father and H. I was able to get an interview for a new job this week so I'm happy for that. This my new outlook on life. One day at a time
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Had my first MS secession and was it brutal. I found out so much about myself that I'm still trying to process. I found out that because I grew up in a dysfunctional home where I was never shown love, that's hard for me to show love to anyone else. I made some bad choices in my M that I didn't realize where bad choices because in my mind I thought I was doing the right thing. I have serious trust issues, I mean if you can't trust your own mother who can you trust. The main thing that stays in my mind is that, I don't love myself because I was never shown how. Deep! So that is my focus now, learning how to love me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> Had my first MS secession and was it brutal. I found out so much about myself that I'm still trying to process. I found out that because I grew up in a dysfunctional home where I was never shown love, that's hard for me to show love to anyone else. I made some bad choices in my M that I didn't realize where bad choices because in my mind I thought I was doing the right thing. I have serious trust issues, I mean if you can't trust your own mother who can you trust. The main thing that stays in my mind is that, I don't love myself because I was never shown how. Deep! So that is my focus now, learning how to love me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Guys i screwed up bad and im going to be man an admit the truth.but the main thing is I'm taking the necessary steps to get myself where I need to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

You and me both brother.

As much as I think my stbx is a bit nuts herself.. I have many issues and had many failings.

Like you say, man up, deal with your shyt and then look ahead.

Word of warning though. Accepting what your truly at fault for isn't the same as taking 100% blame. Make sure you are honest about things from your side and don't accept blameshifting or rugsweeping from her. Really examine what you want from her too.

Has she said what she hopes to get out of MC?


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Northern Monkey said:


> You and me both brother.
> 
> As much as I think my stbx is a bit nuts herself.. I have many issues and had many failings.
> 
> ...


She wants me to be a better person for me and my children. 
It was only one secession so we have many more to go. Next secession is my turn to express my feelings, but her goal is to try R
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Try to find out why she wants R. If its just about you and the kids I'd be very concerned. She has to want it for herself too imo.

I hope she does. I spent a long time wishing for a chance to fix "my" mess to no avail. But then my Stbx is still as nuts now as I was then haha.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Northern Monkey said:


> Try to find out why she wants R. If its just about you and the kids I'd be very concerned. She has to want it for herself too imo.
> 
> I hope she does. I spent a long time wishing for a chance to fix "my" mess to no avail. But then my Stbx is still as nuts now as I was then haha.


Moreso


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Moreso


Hey, one day at a time
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RSFWID (Jun 5, 2013)

RSFWID said:


> Hey, one day at a time
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's been about 2 weeks since I've posted, I hope everyone is dong well. So, I'm in MC and its going ok but now my W once to go alone to her own session as well. Don't know what to think about that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

RSFWID said:


> It's been about 2 weeks since I've posted, I hope everyone is dong well. So, I'm in MC and its going ok but now my W once to go alone to her own session as well. Don't know what to think about that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like a good move for her.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

My advice to you would be don't be afraid of the truth.
The past is the past. It cannot be changed. 
Don't be worried about her telling stories about things you have done. It's just the truth. It can't hurt you. 

The truth for her is how she feels, perceives, sees, from her point of view. It might be different for you.

What matters is the truth for you today, and what you do with it. 

A good therapist needs to see both points of view to understand better.


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