# Does anyone else feel that EA's are worse than PA's?



## Augusto (Aug 14, 2013)

I am coming to the realization that EA's can be worse because the wayward spouse has a harder time detaching from the AP for a positive R. I can honestly say her having a fvck buddy might have been easier if she was not having an EA. Though it never went full physical, I would still prefer that than going through the EA. Because most of the damage to me was done with her wanting to divorce or wish me dead. Am I wrong to feel this way?


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You're not "wrong" to feel anything in any way. 

I see you still approach every thought from the negative angle. 

Try saying "this is what I feel"....period. Who gives a shytwhistle what people think of your opinion? 

Try being a d!ck like me once in a while. It's very liberating. 

And no, I don't think EAs are "worse" than PAs. It's all about the values the offended party has and the meaning s/he attaches to the betrayal.


----------



## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

I've experienced both. A solely PA fills you with disgust for that person, not so much personal hurt. An EA has less to do with disgust and more to do with personal hurt. Both suck equally.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

In general, the women I have talked with throughout life have thought EA's were worse than PA's. The men seem to have believed the opposite. 

It's kind of easy to figure out because women seem to want things done for them through emotional connection, love and so forth driving things done for them, support for their regular life frustrations and failings. We all do, to some extent. 

Emotional support over some period of time drive many women's libido and are a huge factor in decisions to take the step to PA. It kind of all falls into place. 

Men seem to love the attention, but will be less likely to move to PA unless the person is within some sort of personal realm of acceptably attractive. Everyone's idea of attractive is a little different. 

Therefore, in all actuality, an EA is much more dangerous to sexual commitment for women who are in one, than for men. Men may well have a PA just because a woman is outside of what he perceives he is capable of sleeping with. If she is very attractive, he may want her and think he can get away with it. 

I'm not saying women don't do this, but I find it less common than in men. Of course, society is changing actions. Who can tell? No one will admit to anything.


----------



## Daniel. (Jan 14, 2015)

My wife thinks EA is difficult to handle but i think PA is even more difficult. From my POV as my wife her body is my territory, and the mind movies disgust me and makes me feel emasculated. From her POV, reading and knowing what i had shared with xAP that i didn't tell her (mainly work thing) hurts her and made her felt alone and invisible. 

EA/PA, it's a loss of certain kind of exclusiveness and intimacy between husband and wife. Both are disaster


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

No. It depends on the betrayed.

One thing though, in all these years after my XWW's betrayal, I've yet to hear or read about anybody whose spouse had an EA, that they have been haunted by mind movies, not a single one.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

PA is worse here. I would at least kick her butt to the curb and separate for an EA but I might give her another shot if she was remorseful.

Fvcking another man and letting me touch her as well???...

HELL NO!!!!!:FIREdevil::FIREdevil::FIREdevil::FIREdevil::FIREdevil:


----------



## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> And no, I don't think EAs are "worse" than PAs. It's all about the values the offended party has and the meaning s/he attaches to the betrayal.


 Dead center correct.

Although a fvck buddy is not entirely free from an emotional connection an EA is worse because the very core of the relationship is fractured. Most people here and elsewhere meet on a formal level and then progress to a casual one and when those deeper emotional barriers relax and then become inviting the physical ones then ensue.

When an outside intrusion takes hold it spreads like cancer to a point of no return if left unchecked. Anything that ever was a good thing about the BS is then dismissed, ignored or retooled to be seen as a negative so the offending party can rationalize their actions and worse still there feelings.

An EA is also more difficult to deal with since it works around the clock. Assuming no emotional attachment is involved with a PA it is relatively easy to keep an eye on a cheater you are trying to reconcile with. But emotions and thoughts are invisible and with only our gut to go on it then becomes a cat and mouse game of hoping to find something to validate your feelings. 

Plans and such are also not formed in a long term manner when it is just a PA. There are no plans to move out, take the kids, buy a house etc. Your relationship becomes debonded like tape from the flesh. In a PA it is quick, with a EA it is slow as slow can be. And after the bonding is removed, like most adhesive tape, they very rarely re-adhere to the point of contact.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

Both are deal breakers for me. 

Don't give a **** if EA or PA.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Another thing is that there are EAs that have nothing to do with love but simply a sharing of time an intimate information that should be solely reserved for a spouse. A case in point is Daniel's EA which he ended as soon as it was found out by his future multiple PA WW, was one where he was not in love with his OW. I'm not judging which was worse, but I would dare say that most BS would consider his WW's multiple PAs more dangerous to the marriage than his non love EA.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

My WW had an EA that turned PA, both are equally difficult to accept and forgive. To move forward I had to accept that while I loved her unconditionally she really didn't live me at all. Since this is your spouse it is very difficult to overcome. Everything that should have been shared with me was given to the OM. Difficult to know your spouse loved someone else no matter the length of affair. Difficult to know she gave herself away emotionally to someone else. 

The physical part nearly destroyed me as a person also. To know that she gave herself away completely hurt more then any other pain I ever felt. That intimacy was regarded highly by me but not the same for her. The emasculation you feel is excruciating not to mention the humiliation, shame, and hopelessness you feel. So in my mind both are equally destructive. It was a very difficult decision for me to offer reconciliation. 

For my WW she is remorseful and regretful for all that happened. She is ashamed to have fallen for someone who is a true POS. I won't even tell you how she feels about the physical part. Her affair has destroyed her as much as it has me in many ways. 

All of infidelity is terrible, no matter EA or PA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## maritalloneliness (Mar 18, 2015)

I feel that they are equally wrong. When a WS share themselves with another person the things that are intimate with someone else, they are giving part of themselves to the other person, parts that should be given to their spouse.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

IIJokerII said:


> Dead center correct.
> 
> Although a fvck buddy is not entirely free from an emotional connection an EA is worse because the very core of the relationship is fractured. Most people here and elsewhere meet on a formal level and then progress to a casual one and when those deeper emotional barriers relax and then become inviting the physical ones then ensue.
> 
> ...


This was a really good explanation. Thank you. My thoughts were that reconciliation is possible with only and EA. Once it goes to PA, I am done for certain. EA is iffy for me. I lean toward no R, even with an EA, but it would have to be deep and long, not just the start. 

I don't have the ability to separate feelings from the physical actions as many others do. I think that's the difference for me. Once I have sex, I feel something for that person, the level of which depends on our compatibility and other factors. I have never been able to have sex and not feel life-long connection. In fact, it takes feelings EC for me to have sex. In marriage, that EC would equate to EA. 

Hell, I might be the same as many others? Maybe I just find a greater value in commitment, hurt more when things don't go well, and believe in sleeping with those who I find most compatible? I don't know. I'm still trying to understand myself.


----------



## floatingbarely (Mar 21, 2015)

My wife is involved in an affair that has lasted almost a year. I found this out in dec. She denied the physical at first but then 2 weeks later I found it to be true. She says the physical part is over but they still communicate. I've asked for her to be open with me about what they are disscussing but she had not. I'm changing in my behaviour and actions, because I see where I was lacking. Now 4 months from dday we're sleeping separately no sex, and very little affection. She seems to be in a fog as to what she wants. Wether to work on or marriage or split up. We've got 2 kids and have been married 11years. I'm at my wits end as to what to do. We're both doing counselling and I have made serious progress. I never considered or marriage that bad and she agrees with me on that. She seems consumed with him and if the sex has truly stopped than it seems this is now an emotional affair, what do I do


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

floatingbarely said:


> My wife is involved in an affair that has lasted almost a year. I found this out in dec. She denied the physical at first but then 2 weeks later I found it to be true. She says the physical part is over but they still communicate. I've asked for her to be open with me about what they are disscussing but she had not. I'm changing in my behaviour and actions, because I see where I was lacking. Now 4 months from dday we're sleeping separately no sex, and very little affection. She seems to be in a fog as to what she wants. Wether to work on or marriage or split up. We've got 2 kids and have been married 11years. I'm at my wits end as to what to do. We're both doing counselling and I have made serious progress. I never considered or marriage that bad and she agrees with me on that. She seems consumed with him and if the sex has truly stopped than it seems this is now an emotional affair, what do I do


You're doing things wrong. You have to destroy the affair before you have a chance at R.

Start a thread and you will receive great instructions on how to proceed.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

floatingbarely said:


> My wife is involved in an affair that has lasted almost a year. I found this out in dec. She denied the physical at first but then 2 weeks later I found it to be true. She says the physical part is over but they still communicate. I've asked for her to be open with me about what they are disscussing but she had not. I'm changing in my behaviour and actions, because I see where I was lacking. Now 4 months from dday we're sleeping separately no sex, and very little affection. She seems to be in a fog as to what she wants. Wether to work on or marriage or split up. We've got 2 kids and have been married 11years. I'm at my wits end as to what to do. We're both doing counselling and I have made serious progress. I never considered or marriage that bad and she agrees with me on that. She seems consumed with him and if the sex has truly stopped than it seems this is now an emotional affair, what do I do



floatingbarely, you should start your own thread so that you can get the advice you seek.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

SecondTime'Round said:


> I've experienced both. A solely PA fills you with disgust for that person, not so much personal hurt. An EA has less to do with disgust and more to do with personal hurt. Both suck equally.


*From a cheater's perspective, the only major difference between an EA and a PA is that in the latter, they get their cooter's wet!

The lone commonality is that deception reigns supreme in both!*


----------



## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

floatingbarely said:


> My wife is involved in an affair that has lasted almost a year. I found this out in dec. She denied the physical at first but then 2 weeks later I found it to be true. She says the physical part is over but they still communicate. I've asked for her to be open with me about what they are disscussing but she had not. I'm changing in my behaviour and actions, because I see where I was lacking. Now 4 months from dday we're sleeping separately no sex, and very little affection. She seems to be in a fog as to what she wants. Wether to work on or marriage or split up. We've got 2 kids and have been married 11years. I'm at my wits end as to what to do. We're both doing counselling and I have made serious progress. I never considered or marriage that bad and she agrees with me on that. She seems consumed with him and if the sex has truly stopped than it seems this is now an emotional affair, what do I do


go see an attorney. she does not get to chose both and keep you as plan B. Find out what your options are in D, because she is not active in your R. You can't fix the mess she made by yourself.


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Floating, you are racing headfirst toward your own mental destruction. Follow above advice and start your own thread.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

floatingbarely said:


> My wife is involved in an affair that has lasted almost a year. I found this out in dec. She denied the physical at first but then 2 weeks later I found it to be true. She says the physical part is over but they still communicate. I've asked for her to be open with me about what they are disscussing but she had not. I'm changing in my behaviour and actions, because I see where I was lacking. Now 4 months from dday we're sleeping separately no sex, and very little affection. She seems to be in a fog as to what she wants. Wether to work on or marriage or split up. We've got 2 kids and have been married 11years. I'm at my wits end as to what to do. We're both doing counselling and I have made serious progress. I never considered or marriage that bad and she agrees with me on that. She seems consumed with him and if the sex has truly stopped than it seems this is now an emotional affair, what do I do


1. Start your own thread

2. Implement a solid 180

3. File for divorce ASAP

4. Buy and READ the following books...

"The Married Man Sex Life Primer" (commonly referred to as "MMSLP") by Athol Kay

"No More Mister Nice Guy" (commonly referred to as "NMMNG") by Dr. Robert Glover

As indicated in the above links, both are available in at least a couple of different formats, including Kindle e-book.

And, actually, NMMNG may be available for free as a PDF download somewhere out in the ether that is the Internet.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Augusto said:


> I am coming to the realization that EA's can be worse because the wayward spouse has a harder time detaching from the AP for a positive R. I can honestly say her having a fvck buddy might have been easier if she was not having an EA. Though it never went full physical, I would still prefer that than going through the EA. Because most of the damage to me was done with her wanting to divorce or wish me dead. Am I wrong to feel this way?


I don't know that an EA is "worse" than a PA, but recovering from one -- much less two -- sure as f*ck ain't easy.

What I DO know is that, had _either_ of Mrs. Gus' EAs been PAs, I would _not_ have chosen to reconcile.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Dogbert said:


> No. It depends on the betrayed.
> 
> One thing though, in all these years after my XWW's betrayal, I've yet to hear or read about anybody whose spouse had an EA, that they have been haunted by mind movies, not a single one.


I have mind movies of my husband's EA. Imagining what it must have been like at dinner where they discussed me; where she gave him advice on how to conduct our relationship; the littel smirks at certain junctures in their conversation and so on.....


----------



## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

NextTimeAround said:


> I have mind movies of my husband's EA. Imagining what it must have been like at dinner where they discussed me; where she gave him advice on how to conduct our relationship; the littel smirks at certain junctures in their conversation and so on.....


 This is an excellent example. We'd all like to think we are studs and can go on for hours and such but a PS can only last for the moment of physical contact. An EA however encompasses all those little things that gave a relationship its identity. So when these things are stripped away and supplanted by another person the relationship will simply never be the same. Although Recovery is not impossible either.


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

No they are not. 

No disrespect (i.e. Ricky Bobby)... but, how many married women can have PA that doesn't have emotional tie, "bond" to their AP?


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

RWB said:


> No they are not.
> 
> No disrespect (i.e. Ricky Bobby)... but, how many married women can have PA that doesn't have emotional tie, "bond" to their AP?


I'd say that such women are probably in the minority.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> I'd say that such women are probably in the minority.


Another thread on this and the responsibility of an AP? I've been told since I got here, that his role/responsibility is very low. I've never been able to accept that fully, for this exact reason. Possible, yes, but common, no.

It's why I lean toward EA's being forgivable and PA's not. If it doesn't go PA, there might be a chance because brain chemicals and new neuropathways have not yet fully developed. Once it goes PA, it's over. I know this isn't every case, so don't go all crazy on me with denials and accusations people. In which case, it's all important to catch an EA and put a stop to it before it becomes a PA, and all important to find out if it went PA. JMHO YMMV


----------



## Devastated an lost (Oct 29, 2014)

My H had both. A 6 month A that went from EA to PA. When I caught him. He told me he wasn't sure he could let her go because he Loved her as much as he did me. You would think that would be the worst thing that could happen to you, But the thought of them having sex & the mind movies are almost unbearable & never ending. Having dealt with both I still can't say witch is worse. I can say both are soul crushing.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

IMHO, an EA is little more than simply being an emotional "work-in-progress" for its end result ~ the PA!

I cannot help but feel that the ultimate act of betrayal occurs at the EA level, somewhere just this side of their deceptive conscious decision of to merge genitalia, thereby relegating their spouse to persona non grata or "Plan B" status!


----------



## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Meh... the hard ones are where there is an emotional attachment like a crush where they are thinking of each other 24/7. It's harder for you to deal with if it became physical as a result; which is the natural progression of the relationship.

At least if it didn't yet evolve to the PA, there is some sort of sign some boundary and loyalty to the marriage is still there. Once they do it, you no longer have that hope.


----------



## Daniel. (Jan 14, 2015)

Devastated an lost said:


> My H had both. A 6 month A that went from EA to PA. When I caught him. He told me he wasn't sure he could let her go because he Loved her as much as he did me. You would think that would be the worst thing that could happen to you, But the thought of them having sex & the mind movies are almost unbearable & never ending. Having dealt with both I still can't say witch is worse. I can say both are soul crushing.


Your story has got to be one of the most depressing thing i've ever read in here, his actions were selfish but in my opinion his post dday actions just make it even worse. I hope you're in better condition by now Dev


----------



## RS71 (Mar 20, 2014)

EA v PA? My own experience with discovering W in an EA (that OM intended to become a PA later in the year) was devastating. With an EA you question all aspects of your relationship, and you feel rejection on many levels. 

One man's perspective, but I suspect that most men in an EA are working hard to turn it to a PA. But the reverse is likely not so.

Every couple is different and every circumstance is different. In my own relationship I am a giver that married a taker, and the EA made me feel that although I was being deprived on many fronts I must not have been giving enough, and might never give enough. (flawed thinking on my part - I now know).

If I found myself the victim of a EA & PA I would have considered myself replaced, and have wished OM the best of luck.
I came to this conclusion when W offered me an open marriage a couple of years ago when she had turned off sex. That didn't sit well with me, and I was stunned that W assumed a PA wouldn't be combined with an EA. I think partners who don't place a high importance on sex might not be as hurt by a PA if convinced it is only a PA.


----------



## Abel402 (Jan 26, 2015)

I am currently going through the aftermath of a EA (still under investigation whether it has went further).... I think that the EA is pretty tough to deal with like many said before. In my case the EA is something I can work through and try to repair the marriage. If I personally was a victim of a PA, I would file the next day period.

I Know some say both types of affairs are similar, but for some reason, to me, once it crosses the line to going physical... Im done.
I have always been a strong advocate of trust and truth. If a person lies to me about something that is extremely important, it just shows there is no morals and their word is worthless.


----------



## Devastated an lost (Oct 29, 2014)

Daniel. said:


> Your story has got to be one of the most depressing thing i've ever read in here, his actions were selfish but in my opinion his post dday actions just make it even worse. I hope you're in better condition by now Dev


Thanks Daniel,
I'm doing better for now. I try not to let it show & hope it will get better with time, But it never leaves my mind..


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

PA is worse to me


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

From the male perspective, I would say PA is worse. At the same time I would agree with those who have described EA as progression to PA, as relates to women. So the distinction may not be huge. Without intending to be un-PC, I think men generally can take a sexual interest without any emotional attachment or even interest. There are women wired that way as well. For whom a random hook-up might be nothing more. But my general view is that with women once the emotional hook is set it's all over but the shouting. Even that as it is, men tend to have a particular revulsion at even the thought of their wife engaged in **** play with another. So in one sense PA might be easier. No hemming and hawing. No plausible deniability. Clarity.


----------



## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Harken Banks said:


> From the male perspective, I would say PA is worse. At the same time I would agree with those who have described EA as progression to PA, as relates to women. So the distinction may not be huge. Without intending to be un-PC, I think men generally can take a sexual interest without any emotional attachment or even interest. There are women wired that way as well. For whom a random hook-up might be nothing more. But my general view is that with women once the emotional hook is set it's all over but the shouting. Even that as it is, men tend to have a particular revulsion at even the thought of their wife engaged in **** play with another. So in one sense PA might be easier. No hemming and hawing. No plausible deniability. Clarity.


 A very good analogy. Usually, and trying to be neutral here, when a woman whose needs have been unmet for whatever reason a KISA comes along and thoughts like Soul mate or "The One" get branded into the head with no way to fight it off. Toss Divorce on the table and they see it as a way out, and use your anger in doing so as a means to leave. 

But the other aspect of this is what others think about it since the physical plane has not been crossed most consider this to be a non issue, tell someone about emotional cheating and they'd tell you to deal with it. They just do not know the marital impact of an EA. It is the true Cancer of marriage. And with this invisible intruder that governs ones actions and thoughts and feelings, I will never risk my a55 for the sake of "Love" again. 

Peace of mind if much better than a piece of a55.

And no, I am not saying all women will cheat. But they have the potential to do so. And this problem is accentuated by the fact we never know until we know.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Harken Banks and IIJokerII

Both posts are very insightful. I agree with Joker that an EA is cancer to the marriage. In my case I always tried to connect emotionally. I understood so many of my WW emotions and likes as well as her. My mistake was not sharing my emotions after a miscarriage. I was there for her emotions but didn't share mine, causing her to feel distant and closed off to me. We have been together 26 years and nineteen married. I picked out her wedding ring, and in all this time of buying her gifts (clothes, jewelry, etc.) she has only returned about four gifts. But my shutting her out from my emotions hurt her badly. We even survived 15 years of trying to conceive a child. Although I admit it contributed to my shutting her out. 

My WW had an EA that went PA and lasted six months. Her EA was just as painful to me if not more then the PA. While I wasn't perfect that emotional vulnerability she shared with the OM was supposed to be for me only. Even though I don't own her body it was also for me only. So understating that she shared intimate thoughts and then her body with OM destroyed me. I felt pain so intense I didn't even know there was a level of pain that high. I coped badly in the beginning and did many things wrong. I found TAM and two great therapists (MC and IC) that have helped me cope tremendously. With their help I have discovered how I contributed to the MARITAL issues but I am in no way responsible for the INFIDELITY issues. 

I struggle daily with my WW affair but we have shown progress in reconciliation. I may get the 2X4's for explaining how my marriage was bad prior to the affair and how it made my wife vulnerable to an affair. But the truth is I wasn't perfect and understand my role in the marital issues that in my mind do contribute to infidelity. Knowing my WW didn't share her emotions with me still stings sharply to this day, along with the thought that she loved someone else. I believe this pain will carry with me for the rest of my life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

As far as which one is worse, it is a bit like asking if you prefer to be tortured by the iron maiden device or burned inside the brazen bull. Both are very difficult to deal with.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

The issue I have with EAs is that on one end, they could be nothing but a time consumming non sexual, non love type that could have been a friendship except for the excessive amount of time communicating back and forth compared with the time shared comunicating with a spouse. There is reasonable doubt whether or not the spouse has been replaced. On the other end there is the falling in love EA which is just as gut wrenching as a PA and shows that the unaware spouse has not only has been betrayed but replaced as well.

Now a PA leaves absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the BS has been emotionally and/or sexually replaced by another. There is no "Oh he/she is just a friend" to fall back on. It doesn't matter if the PA does not involve sexual intercourse but only passionate kissing, there is no question about what it represents, the BH HAS been replaced.

Again, I believe both can be equally devastating though I have my doubts with the non love EAs which are more like OCD friendship.


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

EA's are sh*tty and I would never try to diminish the pain and sense of betrayal they create....

But IMO it takes a special kind of lowness for the WS to give their body to the POS AP.

It is like the difference between a potentiality and an actuality in my mind (I don't know if that makes sense to you all, but its how I see it).


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Dyokemm said:


> EA's are sh*tty and I would never try to diminish the pain and sense of betrayal they create....
> 
> But IMO it takes a special kind of lowness for the WS to give their body to the POS AP.
> 
> It is like the difference between a potentiality and an actuality in my mind (I don't know if that makes sense to you all, but its how I see it).


No worries... I think that most guys would agree.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

A 5 year EA with active deception v a drunken ONS of a PA?

The former, IMO, is far worse.


----------



## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> A 5 year EA with active deception v a drunken ONS of a PA?
> 
> The former, IMO, is far worse.


 Short and sweet Matt to the second power. 

The physical aspect blows for sure, but an EA will elicit far more lies and gaslighting before, and after they are caught. It simply eats you alive.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> A 5 year EA with active deception v a drunken ONS of a PA?
> 
> The former, IMO, is far worse.


While I'd agree, I'd be willing to bet that 99.999% of full-blown EAs fail to make it to the 1-year mark before going PA, much less 5 years.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

Maybe I am an outlier, but I feel that they are completely and equally horrible. There seriously aren't enough horrible words I can use for either one, in my eyes they are equal.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

In another infidelity forum, a BH said that his multiple PA WW told him that he had cheated on her by watching porn prior to her PAs. He said to her that what he did amounted to reading the plans for multiple murders but what she did amounted to actually carrying out multiple murders. He further told her "my fantasies never went beyond fantasies while you turned your fantasies into a reality".


----------

