# How does the sand taste bremik? I told you so.....



## Bremik

There have been talks on here how those "holding out" for love or pinning hopes on reconciliation often end up coming back when the other shoe finally drops. Here I am!

Ironically, I have been trying to talk to my wife since last November and various "now is not a good time" by me or her got me to this past Friday. I decided to write a letter complete with what I loved about her, what I thought was bad about her but was just a part of her personality that I considered and accepted to be a part of who she was. And finally, that her relationship/boundary handling of other males coupled with the lies and deceptions surrounding those relationships was something I could no longer emotionally handle. Hoped for a good talk Friday night and instead got good sex- awesome but not what I was hoping for. 

Saturday she and a 2 of our children were away during the day and unfortunately for both of us she left her phone. After mentioning in her letter how much she guarded her phone I of course wouldn't let such an opportunity escape and started searching the phone. Also in my letter I had how her college "friend" Jay had been such a detriment to our marriage and lo and behold I found out through her phone that her and Jay have been i-messaging for at least a year and I would say safe to bet longer than that. Since 3 pm yesterday afternoon when I figured this out I have pretty much been wanting to throw up. Not only have they been in contact with each other he has a new number - one of the reasons I didn't catch it- and just to make sure to really hide things my wife had that new number under his farm name and not his actual name- another miss on my part. 

Just to drive the stake in a little deeper she proceeded to talk to me that night- unaware of my find that day- how I just can't get past the "issues" and just keep going in circles with all this. Oh and she hadn't talked to Jay so why is he an issue still? She agreed trust was the issue and was doing everything she could do to re-build that trust. So TAM members/posters you have another point of win in your court.

Any newbies to this- read and memorize BS with a long time update. I got a lot out of it and myself have lived a lot of it. I-messaging sucks because it doesn't show up on cell phone logs. True remorse and hard honesty is a must for reconciling at a minimum. Just my input


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## TDSC60

Are you finally ready to move out of infidelity after so long in false R and her continued lies?


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## Marc878

You are not in R and never were. Her affair never stopped as you've seen. I hope you saved the evidence in a secure place.

I wouldn't say another word just file and have her served. You can't fix this. What are you waiting around for?


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## Marc878

Your wife just learned how to cheat better. Shes pretty smart and she's playing you for a fool. When are you going to start seeing her for who she is?

I just skimmed back through your threads. No marriage works well with another in it. You can't fix her or make her do anything.

Writing long stupid letters pouring your heart out trying to nice her back. At least you got some pity sex but not much more and that's only temporary.

You either have enforceable boundaries or you don't. You're just wasting time/life that you'll never get back. 

Read up and go your own way. Get out of the infidelity. Or stay and get more of what you've been getting.
https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## She'sStillGotIt

So what's your PLAN?

It sounds as though you've been the only one jumping around like a trained seal, desperate to put this marriage back together while your unremorseful cheater has continued to blow you off again and again. Nothing has changed - she's continued her crap behavior with her boyfriend and has continued showing you nothing but complete* disrespect.*

So now you know - hiding your head in the sand might feel good because that sand is so nice and warm around your ears, but it certainly isn't beneficial at all in real life.

I think it's time to stop allowing the continued disrespect and get to a lawyer.


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## Marc878

bremik said:


> There have been talks on here how those "holding out" for love or pinning hopes on reconciliation often end up coming back when the other shoe finally drops. Here I am!
> 
> Ironically, I have been trying to talk to my wife since last November and various "now is not a good time" by me or her got me to this past Friday. I decided to write a letter complete with what I loved about her, what I thought was bad about her but was just a part of her personality that I considered and accepted to be a part of who she was. And finally, that her relationship/boundary handling of other males coupled with the lies and deceptions surrounding those relationships was something I could no longer emotionally handle. Hoped for a good talk Friday night and instead got good sex- awesome but not what I was hoping for.
> 
> She pacified you with pity sex. She's playing you for a fool.
> 
> Saturday she and a 2 of our children were away during the day and *unfortunately for both of us she left her phone. *
> 
> Not unfortunate unless you'd rather have your head buried in the sand.
> 
> After mentioning in her letter how much she guarded her phone I of course wouldn't let such an opportunity escape and started searching the phone. Also in my letter I had how her college "friend" Jay had been such a detriment to our marriage and lo and behold I found out through her phone that her and Jay have been i-messaging for at least a year and I would say safe to bet longer than that. Since 3 pm yesterday afternoon when I figured this out I have pretty much been wanting to throw up. Not only have they been in contact with each other he has a new number - one of the reasons I didn't catch it- and just to make sure to really hide things my wife had that new number under his farm name and not his actual name- another miss on my part.
> 
> Make no mistake this is and has been a full on physical affair and never stopped
> 
> Just to drive the stake in a little deeper she proceeded to talk to me that night- unaware of my find that day- how I just can't get past the "issues" and just keep going in circles with all this. Oh and she hadn't talked to Jay so why is he an issue still? She agreed trust was the issue and was doing everything she could do to re-build that trust. So TAM members/posters you have another point of win in your court.
> 
> She's an entitled cheating, liar and will not stop. Apparently long term J means more than you or her marriage. Better get tested for STD's and stay away from that.
> 
> Any newbies to this- read and memorize BS with a long time update. I got a lot out of it and myself have lived a lot of it. I-messaging sucks because it doesn't show up on cell phone logs. True remorse and hard honesty is a must for reconciling at a minimum. Just my input


Had you put a VAR in her car like you were advised to do you wouldn't have wasted so much time on this albatross.


I hope you've fully woken up this time


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## Roselyn

OP, sorry to hear about your situation. It's not going to get any better for you. Your wife continues to cheat, lie and decieve you. You need to go to a psychologist to get your mind in the right track. Your choice to live in this sham of a marriage.


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## Marc878

The last time (That you knew about J) you in an attempt to manipulate or guilt your wife you slept on the floor??? Cut out that doormatish behavior. Take off your ring and move her ass out of the bedroom. She's doing this not you. Have some respect for yourself. 

If you think talking to her more or anything else is going to actually change her look back at the last years of your marriage. History often repeats. You've been coming here since 2009. You really want to be going through more of this?

It's your life. You can only change you. 

Wake up!!! It's past time.


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## Evinrude58

Hey man, you have got to realize it's going to hurt to lance a boil, but you've got to do it to get well.
Yes, it'll be hard for a while. 
But you will heal mentally, and get out of the misery. You can do this.
Get out of her web of deceit


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## Tatsuhiko

You were "officially tired of this" 6 months ago. Can you check back in when you're "really really officially tired of this?" Then we can recommend air mattresses for those nights you sleep on the floor.

She's a liar and narcissist who loves attention from men and knows how to manipulate them, including you. Are you ever going to get serious about this?


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## barbados

OP,

Join date of 2009. That's now 8 years, most of a decade, you have been here and have known you got a serial cheater on your hands. 

All your suffering at this point is your fault, it really is. You won't cut this cancerous person out of your life. 

Maybe another 8+ years of suffering will do the trick.


I await your 2024 post.


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## Andy1001

When you are both in an old folks home you will be posting about how she is messaging jay in his nursing home and you will still be giving her "one final chance".Ask your wife nicely may you please have your balls back and then gtf out of this poisonous relationship.She doesn't give a **** about you or your meaningless ultimations and after all these years you need to realise that.
Some of your heifers have more balls than you.


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## Openminded

You got played. Welcome to the club (I was stupid enough to put up with 30 years of it). 

What now?


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## WorkingOnMe

Well, in life you make your choices and you live with them. You choose to be in this situation and that's on you. No sympathy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## stillthinking

2009?

Still texting the guy?

It sounds like your marriage is akin to an old car sitting on cinder blocks in the front yard. We all have seen it or know someone who has one. They always say they are going to restore the thing or call the towing company and get rid of it.

Next thing you know there is a tree growing thru it and a raccoon has nested in the back seat.


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## Bremik

Thanks for the motivational input!


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## Andy1001

bremik said:


> Thanks for the motivational input!


After all these years it's not motivational input you need buddy,it's a kick where the sun don't shine.


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## NoChoice

bremik said:


> Thanks for the motivational input!


To what end do you desire to be motivated? Many here are using harsh, untempered responses in an attempt to try and allow you to see that there is little to no hope in your situation. If you are satisfied with things the way they are then what you want is a merely a place to vent. If that is the case simply state that you are venting and we will not offer opinion or advice.

Unless specified otherwise, we assume that the person posting desires advice and opinion from an outside, unbiased perspective which may help them to see what their course should be. We have done so but you act as if we are somehow demotivating you. If it is your desire to remain with this woman, regardless her treatment of you, then so be it. I wish you well.


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## WorkingOnMe

Op lives in a world where people do whatever they want and get a second, third, fifth, tenth chance without a thought. He expects the folks here to buy it when he says things will change. Again. Good luck. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bremik

NoChoice said:


> To what end do you desire to be motivated? Many here are using harsh, untempered responses in an attempt to try and allow you to see that there is little to no hope in your situation. If you are satisfied with things the way they are then what you want is a merely a place to vent. If that is the case simply state that you are venting and we will not offer opinion or advice.
> 
> Unless specified otherwise, we assume that the person posting desires advice and opinion from an outside, unbiased perspective which may help them to see what their course should be. We have done so but you act as if we are somehow demotivating you. If it is your desire to remain with this woman, regardless her treatment of you, then so be it. I wish you well.


I was actually being serious with that comment. My post opened it up for the comments I have received thus far. My title pretty well begs for such comments. Not even I can come up with excuses for her anymore and hope I can maintain my current attitude and do what needs done.


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## Andy1001

bremik said:


> I was actually being serious with that comment. My post opened it up for the comments I have received thus far. Not even I can come up with excuses for her anymore and hope I can maintain my current attitude and do what needs done.


You know bremik if you take a piece of **** and put it on a slice of bread and then put some ham chicken,lettuce,tomato,spring onions,beetroot,mayo,coleslaw,peppers,and anything else you can think of and then put another slice of bread on top you can call it anything you want but it's still a **** sandwich.


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## Bremik

Andy1001 said:


> You know bremik if you take a piece of **** and put it on a slice of bread and then put some ham chicken,lettuce,tomato,spring onions,beetroot,mayo,coleslaw,peppers,and anything else you can think of and then put another slice of bread on top you can call it anything you want but it's still a **** sandwich.


That appears to be very true in my case


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## chillymorn69

ok so what know you know. take some action.


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## Bremik

chillymorn69 said:


> ok so what know you know. take some action.


Trying to figure out what to do given our financial situation


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## chillymorn69

bremik said:


> Trying to figure out what to do given our financial situation


just start the ball rolling get a free lawyer consult. then go from there.


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## stixx

Or just research the divorce laws in your area. 

Most have formulas to calculate child and spousal support so you can get an idea of how much you'll be paying for how long.


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## Bremik

stixx said:


> Or just research the divorce laws in your area.
> 
> Most have formulas to calculate child and spousal support so you can get an idea of how much you'll be paying for how long.[/QUOTE
> 
> A divorce would very likely drive me out of business if not bankrupt so there are a lot of ripples going to come out of this


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## NoChoice

OP,
Are your children of sufficient age to help with the farm? It would do them a world of good to see and experience hard work in their youth. It teaches many lessons and builds character. They are not learning any of the sort from your wife's behavior in fact, she is most probably a very large negative influence on them. It may be prudent, and about time, to leave her to her sex talking, partying, conflict avoiding MARRIED male friends. Your is the life of an adult, hers a child, the two do not mix well in man and wife relationships.

I do honestly believe that a person of your character, compassion and understanding can do much, much better.


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## stixx

bremik said:


> A divorce would very likely drive me out of business if not bankrupt so there are a lot of ripples going to come out of this


Lots of guys think that but that could just be your fear and emotions running your mind rather than logic and common sense.

Remember she only gets half of everything, and yeah you'll be paying through the nose in child and spousal support if the marriage was long term and you make a lot more than her and you've got young kids, but it's not forever. 

Before you decide you will be financially ruined, do some research and like the other poster said, seek a few attorney consults, and determine if those fears are valid. Odds are you're looking at a worse than worst case scenario. I was in your position once. Thought my divorce would completely bury me financially but it was so bad that I just said "screw it I'm doing this let the chips fall where they may". It's all behind me now and I'm just fine.


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## Marc878

If you're serious this time keep your mouth shut, eyes and ears open. See a good divorce attorney but keep it a secret like she is J.


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## thummper

Have you confronted her with what you found on her phone?


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## anchorwatch

*2x4 warning!*

I'd rather live in a tent then hang around so those two can just disrespect me further. 

When is enough is enough? Stop making it easy for her. Grab your balls and pull the rip cord. Let her figure the rest out.

The person who is willing to walk away wins!


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## Satya

@bremik, any action is action, no matter how small. Just keep in action and don't be stagnant. When you make consistent progress then the journey seems less bleak and the goal seems closer.


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## Bremik

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> Are your children of sufficient age to help with the farm? It would do them a world of good to see and experience hard work in their youth. It teaches many lessons and builds character. They are not learning any of the sort from your wife's behavior in fact, she is most probably a very large negative influence on them. It may be prudent, and about time, to leave her to her sex talking, partying, conflict avoiding MARRIED male friends. Your is the life of an adult, hers a child, the two do not mix well in man and wife relationships.
> 
> I do honestly believe that a person of your character, compassion and understanding can do much, much better.


Our children are 20 18 and 16. They do help on the farm. Thank you for your comment. The financial side is my number one hurdle


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## Bremik

anchorwatch said:


> 2x4 warning!
> 
> I'd rather live in a tent then hang around so those two clowns can just disrespect me further.
> 
> When is enough is enough? Stop making it easy for her. Grab your balls and pull the rip cord. Let her figure the rest out.
> 
> The person who is willing to walk away wins!


That may be what I have to do is live in a tent


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## Bremik

thummper said:


> Have you confronted her with what you found on her phone?


I didn't specifically say I found it on her phone but I did let her know that I knew she had been communicating with him and I wanted to know how he got her new number


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## Bremik

stixx said:


> Lots of guys think that but that could just be your fear and emotions running your mind rather than logic and common sense.
> 
> Remember she only gets half of everything, and yeah you'll be paying through the nose in child and spousal support if the marriage was long term and you make a lot more than her and you've got young kids, but it's not forever.
> 
> Before you decide you will be financially ruined, do some research and like the other poster said, seek a few attorney consults, and determine if those fears are valid. Odds are you're looking at a worse than worst case scenario. I was in your position once. Thought my divorce would completely bury me financially but it was so bad that I just said "screw it I'm doing this let the chips fall where they may". It's all behind me now and I'm just fine.


My financial concerns are very real not a "woe is me" type deal. I wanted to separate originally but couldn't figure out how to do it financially


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## Marc878

What was her response. Let me guess. More lies or trickle truth?


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## anchorwatch

bremik said:


> That may be what I have to do is live in a tent


At least you'll be able to live your life free of a Judas and her clown.


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## Bremik

stixx said:


> Or just research the divorce laws in your area.
> 
> Most have formulas to calculate child and spousal support so you can get an idea of how much you'll be paying for how long.


It's not the alimony I am worried about it is the loss of income. I work off farm too, she works and we milk and cash is less than tight. Her job is the insurance provider and largest net income so big loss. She should actually live better living off her income only instead of the farm robbing money from it


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## Bremik

Marc878 said:


> What was her response. Let me guess. More lies or trickle truth?


Both. She acted like she hadn't talked to him except for work and had no idea how he got her number. Then tried to tell me I was going in circles and she was working hard to be transparent. And why couldn't I just get past this stuff?


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## Marc878

bremik said:


> Both. She acted like she hadn't talked to him except for work and had no idea how he got her number. Then tried to tell me I was going in circles and she was working hard to be transparent. And why couldn't I just get past this stuff?


Did you keep the evidence?


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## Emerging Buddhist

There is an Irish saying... "when mistrust comes in, love goes out".

Willing deception has few recourses and dictates attention... and many disappointments.

Her willingness to hide his contact isn't done in a silo, she knows the storm that will come doing this but has risked it anyways.

That is what troubles me the most as I looked back through your sharing.

You know what your values are... addressing them may take courage, but you will stand tall in these words once spoken.

Show her the power of honest conversation.


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## phillybeffandswiss

bremik said:


> Our children are 20 18 and 16. They do help on the farm. Thank you for your comment. The financial side is my number one hurdle


Honestly, more 2x4's, my ire wouldn't be focused on the financial side. You wasted nearly a decade and you have no clue how many times she brought him home to you. Yes, I self edited my comment because it was going to be extremely vulgar. Still, you understand what I am saying. 

Check your state laws on infidelity, alimony, child support and college support. Sit down with a lawyer and see what you can do. This is 2017 and don't give me the, "but she's a woman" claptrap I hear from many men. If a woman deserves alimony, in many cases I do agree, she should get support. Same goes for men. If she is the primary bread winner, don't play the chivalrous card for a woman who treated you with ZERO respect.


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## manfromlamancha

Bremik, I have been following your threads since day one. I felt I needed to pipe in with my tuppence:



This is NOT a marriage - not by any stretch of anyone's imagination. She continues to freewheel doing whatever she wants and then sweet talks you and turns on the sex to keep you on hook. She will lie, deceive - pretty much do anything she has to. And she probably knows that you are dependent on her financially.


Make no mistake that she has had and is probably still having sex with others especially the [email protected] you have mentioned (Jay, Dave, Mike … and God knows who else). And the killer is … she doesn't care what it does to you (deep down you know she does this and deep down she knows you know). She knows you will do nothing about it.


So the question is how long you are willing to tolerate this despicable, disrespectful behaviour. And at what cost to you and your well being? SELL THE DAMN FARM, get a regular job and move into a smaller house and get on with your life. Cut this cancer completely out of your life. You love your "illusion" (your vision of what you think she is - not what she really is). If you had a good look at what she really is you would be terrified. Stop this now. Lawyer up and get the D underway. Lay down your demands one final time and proceed with the split. Then watch her R actions - not words and not her trying to have sex with you.


Wake up, dump the farm and get on with your life!


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## rzmpf

bremik said:


> It's not the alimony I am worried about it is the loss of income. I work off farm too, she works and we milk and cash is less than tight. Her job is the insurance provider and largest net income so big loss. She should actually live better living off her income only instead of the farm robbing money from it


So did I get this correctly?

You work.
She works and she makes more than you.
You have a business (farm) that is subsidized by your (mostly her) income because it's not profitable.

Why not give up the farm if it just costs money? Why keep a business that's not a business but a costly hobby?
Would you be a candidate for spousal support if she makes more than you?

Somehow sounds like a pattern. You cling on to a failing marriage like you cling on to your economically failing farm. You should have dealt with both of these issue years ago.


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## StillSearching

bremik said:


> Our children are 20 18 and 16. They do help on the farm. Thank you for your comment. The financial side is my number one hurdle


OP, I feel your pain. Take it from me...get out.
I know when you look at the money it's gunna be hard. But happiness cannot be bought. 
I'm still looking to get out myself and my income would drop over 3 HG.
Wish you all the luck. If she stops her cheating your marriage is still toast. If she's lying about the texts, she laying down when him.


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## Bremik

rzmpf said:


> So did I get this correctly?
> 
> You work.
> She works and she makes more than you.
> You have a business (farm) that is subsidized by your (mostly her) income because it's not profitable.
> 
> Why not give up the farm if it just costs money? Why keep a business that's not a business but a costly hobby?
> Would you be a candidate for spousal support if she makes more than you?
> 
> Somehow sounds like a pattern. You cling on to a failing marriage like you cling on to your economically failing farm. You should have dealt with both of these issue years ago.


I don't know that I can explain to you the farm side if you don't know how farming is. For various reasons we are where we are at right now and I said NETS the most not makes the most. I don't want to get hung up on farm financial. As far as the pattern I am not going to apologize for not jumping any ship when things get rough. It does appear it may not have worked well for me on my marriage but I would also contend if people in general weren't the throw away society/jump ship at first wave we have become things might be better for all. But I do appreciate your input


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## stixx

bremik said:


> I don't know that I can explain to you the farm side if you don't know how farming is. For various reasons we are where we are at right now and I said NETS the most not makes the most.


It doesn't matter if a person knows about farming.

All that a person needs to know is that a) her NET income is higher than yours and b) a large chunk of her net come is being wasted on the farm that needs her net income to subsidize it because it's obviously losing money.

So dump the farm, dump her, you might even be entitled to alimony from her since she makes more than you do. 

Get yourself job somewhere and meet a person who you aren't angry with and arguing with all the time and start improving your life.

You really need some internet strangers who hardly know you to tell you something that is as obvious as the milk dripping out of a cow's udder?



bremik said:


> As far as the pattern I am not going to apologize for not jumping any ship when things get rough. It does appear it may not have worked well for me on my marriage but I would also contend if people in general weren't the throw away society/jump ship at first wave we have become things might be better for all.


All that stuff about not jumping ship when there's trouble is basically saying that the passengers on the Titanic shouldn't have gotten into the lifeboats, that they just gave up too easily.


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## Emerging Buddhist

I do not come from a "jump ship" mentality... and if I am with a spouse it is because I want to be there, mostly healthy and enriched in a life together, but there must be truth in the big things although it is up to the couple to determine what boundaries constitute big and little and each is different.

Fidelity is a big thing.

I think that I would tire quickly in a game of circular logic, often the conversations we fear most are the one that are the most critical to have... and free us from our immediate worry. True, another may take it's place, but at least that worry is addressed.

What would you lose by being totally forthcoming, letting her know everything you know?

It would be at this point one could set the ultimate boundary, a very clear and marital deal-breaker if necessary.

If she wants these communications, she want's them more than she wants you.

Many may choose to live like that... what do you choose?


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## Bremik

I am not trying to be combative if it comes off that way. Just trying to rationalize things in my head. I always read it takes 2 in marriage problems and there have been many discussions on here to the validity of that statement. I think the best I have gathered from these discussions is - nobody agrees. 

If the same voice in my head says " jay is still in the picture she can't let him go" also says as she is crying and telling me how angry or mean I am to her "am I doing something wrong to make this worse?" What the heck am I supposed to do? I personally accept the notion that there is at least some ownership/responsibility on my part but I can't see what that is. I feel justified to be angry that all this has happened. I don't feel it's history if she is STILL in contact with jay. It is such a horrible mind game.


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## Bremik

Emerging Buddhist said:


> I do not come from a "jump ship" mentality... and if I am with a spouse it is because I want to be there, mostly healthy and enriched in a life together, but there must be truth in the big things although it is up to the couple to determine what boundaries constitute big and little and each is different.
> 
> Fidelity is a big thing.
> 
> I think that I would tire quickly in a game of circular logic, often the conversations we fear most are the one that are the most critical to have... and free us from our immediate worry. True, another may take it's place, but at least that worry is addressed.
> 
> What would you lose by being totally forthcoming, letting her know everything you know?
> 
> It would be at this point one could set the ultimate boundary, a very clear and marital deal-breaker if necessary.
> 
> If she wants these communications, she want's them more than she wants you.
> 
> Many may choose to live like that... what do you choose?


What do you mean by being totally forthcoming? I think I have told her everything I know. What I call a lie she doesn't - does great things for my sanity


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## anchorwatch

So it must be your fault she is still in regular contact with Jay?


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## Emerging Buddhist

The knowns are important.

*You know he has her new phone number.

*You know it is in her contacts.

*You know it is disguised with another name.

*You know the calls are recent.

Is this so?


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## Bremik

stixx said:


> It doesn't matter if a person knows about farming.
> 
> All that a person needs to know is that a) her NET income is higher than yours and b) a large chunk of her net come is being wasted on the farm that needs her net income to subsidize it because it's obviously losing money.
> 
> So dump the farm, dump her, you might even be entitled to alimony from her since she makes more than you do.
> 
> Get yourself job somewhere and meet a person who you aren't angry with and arguing with all the time and start improving your life.
> 
> You really need some internet strangers who hardly know you to tell you something that is as obvious as the milk dripping out of a cow's udder?
> 
> 
> 
> All that stuff about not jumping ship when there's trouble is basically saying that the passengers on the Titanic shouldn't have gotten into the lifeboats, that they just gave up too easily.


I understand what you are trying to say. As far as internet strangers telling me something obvious- It's not that I don't see it, I just want to make sure I am not crazy because it sure seems crazy. Honestly most things are crystal clear from the outside more than when your in the trench on the inside


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## Bremik

Emerging Buddhist said:


> The knowns are important.
> 
> *You know he has her new phone number.
> 
> *You know it is in her contacts.
> 
> *You know it is disguised with another name.
> 
> *You know the calls are recent.
> 
> Is this so?


Yes and exactly how I presented it to her this morning


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## MAJDEATH

You don't have to get divorced, or even move out to reestablish yourself as the head of the household. It's time to bring in all the kids for a family meeting and inform them of your wife's activities. 

If she goes to GNO activities late at night, turn on all the lights at 5 am while you get ready to start your day. Separate your finances and only pay for your own stuff. No sex unless it's only on your terms and for your benefit, protected of course. Inform all exrtended family members and friends of her infidelity.


----------



## Bremik

anchorwatch said:


> So it must be your fault she is still in regular contact with Jay?
> 
> 
> View attachment 52521


I don't feel that but.........


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> Just trying to rationalize things in my head.


 Rationalizing is your problem. You rationalize away your wife's cheating. Usually it is only the cheater that does this, but in your case she just lets you do it.



bremik said:


> I always read it takes 2 in marriage problems and there have been many discussions on here to the validity of that statement. I think the best I have gathered from these discussions is - nobody agrees.


 People agree if you quoted it correctly, but you are not quoting the full statement. The full statement is that "you are both responsible for issues in your marriage, but a cheater is 100% responsible for their cheating." Few on this site will disagree with this statement.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

bremik said:


> Yes and exactly how I presented it to her this morning


Why do you think she can deceive herself like this then?

One can't lie to others unless they can lie to themselves first... talk about unmindful juggling.

And the DARVO, while expected, is troubling to this extent if these are presented in the clarity they carry.

"Catch me if you can" has played out... her contact discovered, the game exposed.

She did place him before you... that is the simplicity of such action.

Now what?

You can't save her from herself in such actions... all you can do is choose not to play the game.

How do you think you will do this?


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

bremik said:


> I don't know that I can explain to you the farm side if you don't know how farming is. For various reasons we are where we are at right now and I said NETS the most not makes the most. I don't want to get hung up on farm financial. As far as the pattern I am not going to apologize for not jumping any ship when things get rough. It does appear it may not have worked well for me on my marriage but I would also contend if people in general weren't the throw away society/jump ship at first wave we have become things might be better for all. But I do appreciate your input


Having just learned that you've been putting up with this bull**** for *YEARS*, it makes your words above ring quite hollow.

You'd have us all believe that the reason you've continued to be a floor mat to this woman all these years is because you're a strong guy with strong ethics who doesn't believe in just throwing things away just because things are rough - unlike the rest of this 'throw away' society we live in.

But the truth is you're doing nothing because of *FEAR* - and no other reason. Every single thing anyone has suggested you just throw a bunch of ambiguous words at acknowledging what they said while arguing that you can't follow their advice due to 'blah blah blah.' You just want to continue wallowing in denial because your fear won't LET you do anything else. You kind of remind me of all those SAHMs over on SI who continue to stay with losers who cheat on them year after year and constantly lap up those **** sandwiches because they're financially dependent on these guys so they keep clinging like grim death to them. That's what you're basically telling us - your wife's salary subsidizes your farm and that's where you get your insurance from so you'll continue clinging like a barnacle to her. And then, of course, you try to argue with anyone who says your farm must be a losing venture if you depend on a good portion of your wife's salary. 

So it's like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth because the plain and simply truth is that you want to stay right where you are rather than even VENTURE looking into alternatives.

Have you actually *BEEN* to a lawyer and educated yourself on your actual situation?


----------



## Bremik

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Why do you think she can deceive herself like this then?
> 
> One can't lie to others unless they can lie to themselves first... talk about unmindful juggling.
> 
> And the DARVO, while expected, is troubling to this extent if these are presented in the clarity they carry.
> 
> "Catch me if you can" has played out... her contact discovered, the game exposed.
> 
> She did place him before you... that is the simplicity of such action.
> 
> Now what?
> 
> You can't save her from herself in such actions... all you can do is choose not to play the game.
> 
> How do you think you will do this?



I don't know what DARVO means?


----------



## SunCMars

bremik said:


> stixx said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or just research the divorce laws in your area.
> 
> Most have formulas to calculate child and spousal support so you can get an idea of how much you'll be paying for how long.[/QUOTE
> 
> *A divorce would very likely drive me out of business* if not bankrupt so there are a lot of ripples going to come out of this
> 
> 
> 
> Out of business you say?
> 
> This business you are in:
> 
> Is you *selling* your Pride, Dignity......your Soul, to an unrepentant, cheating, selfish wife. She has no soul. She is sucking the blood out of yours. She stands in your light. Without you she would shrivel, go dark and.....become colder. It is your heat that she purloins. Your heat and POSOM's causes her loins to purr. Her sexual worth cannot stand firm without men. She is amoral, amorphous. A blob, a shadow of a women, no man can own her oyster. It is a slippery concept, she has lost control of it.
> 
> Is *trading* your goods for her bad(s). When good and bad meet, the more powerful force triumphs. In your marriage she is a Triumph Rocket launcher.
> 
> Is *servicing* her needs, at the expense of yours.
> 
> Is that your *occupation* keeps your mental stock in the "sold out" category . You can never restock your psychological inventory.....so fast she spends your trust and
> love.
> 
> Is having you *buying* time, rather *selling* her off to the lowest bidder [in her case]. She has no intrinsic worth. Her worth resides [only] in her outward shell, her appearance. Any new, hopeful, trusting man that she lays with will "assume" that he is getting an exclusive oyster. Problem is: She is *open for business* with your competitors. She opens her [furry good] for others to test drive. She then lies about it. And you willingly pay for her *bad faith negotiations*.
> 
> Is her breaking your *marital business contract.* And breaking your rapidly beating heart.
> 
> Is you enabling her to *cheat on her contract*. Is you being a fool while she does the *bait and switch *with your *good will marital valuation*.
> 
> Is enabling her paramour to steal your trademark. The trademark that you own.
> 
> Is when you married her, you two formed a *Partnership*. She has *violated the terms* of that contract. She has been *skimming the profits* of the partnerships love from you and giving it the your competitor POSOM.
> 
> Your *business model* has failed. It has gone belly up. Your wife's hungry belly has left your business premises. The soft thing has transferred it *[assets* to POSOM's corner lot. He has its lush trappings *displayed* for all to view and all to pine over.
Click to expand...


----------



## Bremik

SunCMars said:


> bremik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Out of business you say?
> 
> This business you are in:
> 
> Is you *selling* your Pride, Dignity......your Soul, to an unrepentant, cheating, selfish wife. She has no soul. She is sucking the blood out of yours. She stands in your light. Without you she would shrivel, go dark and.....become colder. It is your heat that she purloins. Your heat and POSOM's causes her loins to purr. Her sexual worth cannot stand firm without men. She is amoral, amorphous. A blob, a shadow of a women, no man can own her oyster. It is a slippery concept, she has lost control of it.
> 
> Is *trading* your goods for her bad(s). When good and bad meet, the more powerful force triumphs. In your marriage she is a Triumph Rocket launcher.
> 
> Is *servicing* her needs, at the expense of yours.
> 
> Is that your *occupation* keeps your mental stock in the "sold out" category . You can never restock your psychological inventory.....so fast she spends your trust and
> love.
> 
> Is having you *buying* time, rather *selling* her off to the lowest bidder [in her case]. She has no intrinsic worth. Her worth resides [only] in her outward shell, her appearance. Any new, hopeful, trusting man that she lays with will "assume" that he is getting an exclusive oyster. Problem is: She is *open for business* with your competitors. She opens her [furry good] for others to test drive. She then lies about it. And you willingly pay for her *bad faith negotiations*.
> 
> Is her breaking your *marital business contract.* And breaking your rapidly beating heart.
> 
> Is you enabling her to *cheat on her contract*. Is you being a fool while she does the *bait and switch *with your *good will marital valuation*.
> 
> Is enabling her paramour to steal your trademark. The trademark that you own.
> 
> Is when you married her, you two formed a *Partnership*. She has *violated the terms* of that contract. She has been *skimming the profits* of the partnerships love from you and giving it the your competitor POSOM.
> 
> Your *business model* has failed. It has gone belly up. Your wife's hungry belly has left your business premises. The soft thing has transferred it *[assets* to POSOM's corner lot. He has its lush trappings *displayed* for all to view and all to pine over.
> 
> 
> 
> Valid points. And I was afraid people would hold back!
Click to expand...


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

bremik said:


> I don't know what DARVO means?


DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender."


----------



## Openminded

Some women (not all of us) view tears as a tactic to be used to win. That always works well with a Nice Guy (like you). We learn very early just how easily we can manipulate. Most of us live our entire lives and never do that even once but we are well aware that we can. She does.


----------



## Affaircare

Here is a link about DARVO: How did my disloyal spouse become the VICTIM? ~D.A.R.V.O - Affaircare


----------



## Andy1001

Bremik I'm starting to think you actually enjoy the feeling of being cuckolded because otherwise how the hell are you still with this conniving,manipulating cheating *****.Are you having a laugh at the people on this forum who are trying to help you.Or is it a martyr complex you have going and you see yourself as some kind of saint.
Maybe you think you will get your reward in the next life,well I have news for you buddy the life you are living is not a dress rehearsal and you need to make the most of it.
How do you think your children look at you,with disgust I'd say.
Again.Grow a pair.


----------



## MyRevelation

Andy1001 said:


> Bremik I'm starting to think you actually enjoy the feeling of being cuckolded because otherwise how the hell are you still with this conniving,manipulating cheating *****.Are you having a laugh at the people on this forum who are trying to help you.Or is it a martyr complex you have going and you see yourself as some kind of saint.
> Maybe you think you will get your reward in the next life,well I have news for you buddy the life you are living is not a dress rehearsal and you need to make the most of it.
> How do you think your children look at you,with disgust I'd say.
> Again.Grow a pair.


I think you're basically right ... this is just another dead horse beating where well meaning people are trying to help a BH that doesn't want to be helped. He is in this situation because he chooses to be in this situation. He has/had the ability to change his circumstances many times over many years, but he over and over chooses the status quo.


----------



## Bremik

Emerging Buddhist said:


> DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender."


Yes this process looks very familiar after many conversations my wife and I have had. Hopefully it is easy to see how I can doubt myself if my wife has become good at such tactics


----------



## Bremik

Affaircare said:


> Here is a link about DARVO: How did my disloyal spouse become the VICTIM? ~D.A.R.V.O - Affaircare


Thank you for the link


----------



## eric1

Your next steps have absolutely nothing to do with the financial aspects of your life. All you need to do is to get out of infidelity. 

If her boyfriend has a spouse make sure that you blow that up before she gets back. File for divorce. Implement 180. Exposure to family. Separating finances is so damn far down the road that you can't worry about that because it's simply not at the top of your list. You just can't focus on it now.


----------



## Bremik

Andy1001 said:


> Bremik I'm starting to think you actually enjoy the feeling of being cuckolded because otherwise how the hell are you still with this conniving,manipulating cheating *****.Are you having a laugh at the people on this forum who are trying to help you.Or is it a martyr complex you have going and you see yourself as some kind of saint.
> Maybe you think you will get your reward in the next life,well I have news for you buddy the life you are living is not a dress rehearsal and you need to make the most of it.
> How do you think your children look at you,with disgust I'd say.
> Again.Grow a pair.


I am not laughing at anyone on this site. You don't know me so your statement on being cuckolded and a martyr is ignorant. I am sorry you have your own anger issues


----------



## Keke24

Openminded said:


> Some women (not all of us) view tears as a tactic to be used to win. That always works well with a Nice Guy (like you). We learn very early just how easily we can manipulate. Most of us live our entire lives and never do that even once but we are well aware that we can. She does.


Ha! This is so true. In my late teens I'd do this easily just by drinking soda, the fizziness always made me well up. Smh


----------



## Bremik

Affaircare said:


> Here is a link about DARVO: How did my disloyal spouse become the VICTIM? ~D.A.R.V.O - Affaircare


I am curious on your take on my situation? I was going to PM you but you don't do that. Please feel free to weigh in


----------



## Andy1001

bremik said:


> I am not laughing at anyone on this site. You don't know me so your statement on being cuckolded and a martyr is ignorant. I am sorry you have your own anger issues


Yes I'm angry and it's YOU who is making me angry.There was a thread running earlier about how men shouldn't marry American women.I think American women know their own minds and value and know what they bring to any relationship,some may call them self entitled but I see it them as confident strong women.
In your case it seems your wife's attitude is if you have an ass ride him.


----------



## Ralph Bellamy

bremik said:


> It's not the alimony I am worried about it is the loss of income. I work off farm too, she works and we milk and cash is less than tight. Her job is the insurance provider and largest net income so big loss. She should actually live better living off her income only instead of the farm robbing money from it


You may be surprised by what a financial drain it is having a woman in your house. Their day to day spending can be shocking. Keep your spending under control, shed unnecessary expenses and reap the benefits.


----------



## Cynthia

barbados said:


> OP,
> 
> Join date of 2009. That's now 8 years, most of a decade, you have been here and have known you got a serial cheater on your hands.
> 
> All your suffering at this point is your fault, it really is. You won't cut this cancerous person out of your life.
> 
> Maybe another 8+ years of suffering will do the trick.
> 
> 
> I await your 2024 post.


More than eight years. This has been going on since they were first married in college. This has been throughout the entire marriage. She married him to have a stable, good man while getting some nasty on the side. The OM's wife is probably a lot like you, stable and good while he gets some nasty on the side from your wife. I'm sorry to say this, but it looks like this is what is going on. We already know that she’s probably doing anal with these other men (or at least J) based on her conversation with them. They apparently get their excitement from each other and their stable and steady from their actual spouses. I'm pretty sure their relationship is not based on intellectual interests.



bremik said:


> It's not the alimony I am worried about it is the loss of income. I work off farm too, she works and we milk and cash is less than tight. Her job is the insurance provider and largest net income so big loss. She should actually live better living off her income only instead of the farm robbing money from it


If your farm isn’t profitable, basically your wife is supporting you and the farm is a hobby. I think a big part of your issue is that your wife is supporting you so you can do what you like all day long, which happens to be farming. I’m not saying you’re lazy. Not at all. But you are living off your wife so you can enjoy taking care of the farm. If you want to divorce your wife, you’re going to have to give up your hobby and get a career.
The difference between a hobby and a career is that a career will support you financially. This farm isn’t supporting you financially. Give it up and find work that will support you. Stop making excuses and grow up. You are acting like a teenager by thinking that you don’t need to make money doing what you love, you only have to do what you love. That’s doesn’t always play out in the real world and it obviously hasn’t for you.



bremik said:


> I don't know that I can explain to you the farm side if you don't know how farming is. For various reasons we are where we are at right now and I said NETS the most not makes the most. I don't want to get hung up on farm financial. As far as the pattern I am not going to apologize for not jumping any ship when things get rough. It does appear it may not have worked well for me on my marriage but I would also contend if people in general weren't the throw away society/jump ship at first wave we have become things might be better for all. But I do appreciate your input


This is ridiculous. First off, if your farm is not profitable enough for you to support yourself, the responsible thing to do it is to quit farming, unless it’s a hobby farm that you do alongside your day job.

Secondly, you are not making a logical point. You are not jumping ship at the first sign of trouble. You have been living a lie since the beginning of your marriage and tolerating your wife’s relationships with other men. These relationships are obviously inappropriate or she wouldn’t be hiding them. Furthermore, you gave you wife an ultimatum regarding the other man, but did not follow through, so you have just become a doormat.

You are reframing things. Is it because you are otherwise satisfied with your life, even though your wife is obviously lying to you and hiding significant parts of her life, which most likely include having sex with other men?

She’s not going to change. She’s only going to tell you that she has changed and then she’ll switch numbers, get a burner phone, etc. to keep you off the trail all the while she is happily continuing with her hidden relationship(s).


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Seriously, Bremik, you need to think about whether there is something a little bit exciting about playing the victim and gaining the sympathy of a bunch of strangers. Is it a little thrilling to come here and hash over your wife's sexual activities and hear a bunch of guys tell you how unfair it is?

If I'm way off base, then I apologize. But take action then this time. If you come back here a year from now, complaining about the same things, then you're just the boy who cried "wolf" and you're deceptively making us participate in your fantasy.


----------



## Bremik

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Why do you think she can deceive herself like this then?
> 
> One can't lie to others unless they can lie to themselves first... talk about unmindful juggling.
> 
> And the DARVO, while expected, is troubling to this extent if these are presented in the clarity they carry.
> 
> "Catch me if you can" has played out... her contact discovered, the game exposed.
> 
> She did place him before you... that is the simplicity of such action.
> 
> Now what?
> 
> You can't save her from herself in such actions... all you can do is choose not to play the game.
> 
> How do you think you will do this?



Now that I understand DARVO I can better answer your questions. Jay in my opinion was the start of all this. Whether it be simply because I should have put a stop to it then and yes was too scared or because it is some crazy long term affair that hasn't stopped- I have no idea- probably a combination of both and more factors.

Right now TODAY I had been of the opinion that jay wasn't an issue only because he is 4 states away and basically out of sight and out of mind. Had no illusions that if he were around he would be a problem. So that in itself really means deep down or whatever I really have known nothing has changed. The counseling, crying, talking, bleeding letters etc. haven't fixed the core problem. 

The shock is he was still around I just was looking in the wrong places. As I have told my wife and TAM I am well aware of the cognitive effort my wife took in telling me more than once in the last year or two that she hadn't had contact with jay. Also aware of the effort it took to put his different ph number under his farm name instead of his and erase still more proof of their communication on top of going through the effort to make a point of telling me that due to trying to be transparent she wanted me to know she would have to communicate some with him because of her job yet didn't mention she already had been communicating with him all along.

What am I going to do? The only thing I can see is divorce at this point because of how calculated the above was and for me who it was with. I didn't see anything bad in what they texted - that I saw- but it is how it was all handled that concerns me. And most of all once again jay is still around. What is holding me back? Maybe an honest assessment is I stay on sinking ships too long. That being said, I am not of the mind frame right now to deal with ALL of my worlds collapsing at once and am trying to prepare a strategy for that. I will lose my job/career, my wife who has been a part of my life since both of our parents went to school together, some of my best memories of when I stayed with her family BEFORE we even remotely thought about dating as well as whatever crappy fallout there is from being in a backward nosy small town that has caused us grief since we moved here. Maybe 5-10 years from now I will be happy but the hell until then is going to border on being unbearable. I am not a fan of divorce, yes I am scared because I am the one pulling the trigger no matter how justified I am. And NOBODY on here knows enough about me or my situation to honestly assess if somehow I am part of this problem so yes I am scared 5-10 years won't find me any happier. Yes no matter how calculated her crying may be it does work on me with all this in mind


----------



## Bremik

Tatsuhiko said:


> Seriously, Bremik, you need to think about whether there is something a little bit exciting about playing the victim and gaining the sympathy of a bunch of strangers. Is it a little thrilling to come here and hash over your wife's sexual activities and hear a bunch of guys tell you how unfair it is?
> 
> If I'm way off base, then I apologize. But take action then this time. If you come back here a year from now, complaining about the same things, then you're just the boy who cried "wolf" and you're deceptively making us participate in your fantasy.


I will leave it at- you are off base


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bremik said:


> I am not trying to be combative if it comes off that way. Just trying to rationalize things in my head. I always read it takes 2 in marriage problems and there have been many discussions on here to the validity of that statement. I think the best I have gathered from these discussions is - nobody agrees.


 Yes, People disagree on where to assess blame.



> If the same voice in my head says " jay is still in the picture she can't let him go" also says as she is crying and telling me how angry or mean I am to her "am I doing something wrong to make this worse?" What the heck am I supposed to do? I personally accept the notion that there is at least some ownership/responsibility on my part but I can't see what that is. I feel justified to be angry that all this has happened. I don't feel it's history if she is STILL in contact with jay. It is such a horrible mind game.


You are cherry picking discussions because you like this pain. People do not agree on divorce, fault and where to assess blame. A small minority, mainly those who have had NO infidelity in their life, who disagree on blaming the betrayed spouse for the affair partner still being in the picture. I'd argue only trolls and right fighters say you can fix a marriage with the affair partner still involved. Most agree fix your side of the street and get the affair partner out of the picture to work towards divorce or reconciliation.

You just brought up two different points. One may lead to an affair, which people do disagree on, the other is about the outcome and both sides overwhelmingly agree with removal of the affair partner regardless of fault. You need to stop blaming yourself and enforcing boundaries. A single wave can sink a boat.


----------



## Bibi1031

bremik said:


> Yes this process looks very familiar after many conversations my wife and I have had. Hopefully it is easy to see how I can doubt myself if my wife has become good at such tactics


Are you or your children in real physical or emotional danger if your WS is out of the picture?


----------



## Bremik

Bibi1031 said:


> Are you or your children in real physical or emotional danger if your WS is out of the picture?


I don't think so. But I am concerned how I am going to deal with things crashing down around me. We already dealt with major farm issues a few years ago. Things were supposed to get better - they haven't


----------



## stixx

I can't understand why if the farm is operating at a loss you don't just shut it down.


----------



## Bremik

stixx said:


> I can't understand why if the farm is operating at a loss you don't just shut it down.


Farming is very cyclical in income. Feast and famine. That's normal what alters your ability to deal with that is whether you inherited what you have or were first generation. We started 100% on borrowed money as first generation. It takes time. In 2 years a lot of our major payments will be up and the money gets more available to us. In addition, we are trying to venture into on farm processing and farm markets to sustain us- it takes time. You can't lay off your cows when prices are down


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> Her job is the insurance provider and largest net income so big loss. She should actually live better living off her income only instead of the farm robbing money from it





bremik said:


> I don't know that I can explain to you the farm side if you don't know how farming is. For various reasons we are where we are at right now and I said NETS the most not makes the most. I don't want to get hung up on farm financial.


 You may understand farming, but you saying "NETS the most not makes the most" shows that you do not understand business. If you spend more to run a business than you 
you earn from that business, then the business "makes" nothing, and in fact loses money. Currently you have your wife, children, and you, working in a business that loses money, such that what your wife makes is used to not only pay 100% of your living expenses, but is also used to cover the loses of your the farm business. If you got out of the farm business, got a job that actually pays you, not only would part of what your wife earns no longer be used to cover the farm's loses, but you would be able to provide for your own living expenses as well as be able to help your wife in providing for your family, thus giving them a better quality of life. The fact that your wife and children would no longer be wasting their time and energy doing farm work that nets the family nothing, is just an added bonus in improving the entire family's quality of life. The problem with you is, that like with your wife's cheating, you do not take meaningful action when it comes to earning a living. You either learn to run the farm at a real profit that fairly compensates everyone for the assets and labor put into the business, or you sell the farm and find a job that really lets you earn a living. Your wife may be a cheater, but I would not blame your wife if she has lost respect for you for not doing what you need to do in order to best provide for yourself and family. I hate to be so tough on you, but you need to wake up and realize that the status quo is not working, and start do something about it.

With this in mind, get a job, sell the farm, and then confront your wife from a position of strength. Only then will she respect you enough to start to take you seriously. You are a good person. You can make life better for you and your family if that is your focus. Be well.


----------



## Affaircare

bremik said:


> I am curious on your take on my situation? I was going to PM you but you don't do that. Please feel free to weigh in


Okay thanks for mentioning my name so I got the message! I am going to look at your past posts to get a full picture, okay?


----------



## Bremik

TRy said:


> You may understand farming, but you saying "NETS the most not makes the most" shows that you do not understand business. If you spend more to run a business than you
> you earn from that business, then the business "makes" nothing, and in fact loses money. Currently you have your wife, children, and you, working in a business that loses money, such that what your wife makes is used to not only pay 100% of your living expenses, but is also used to cover the loses of your the farm business. If you got out of the farm business, got a job that actually pays you, not only would part of what your wife earns no longer be used to cover the farm's loses, but you would be able to provide for your own living expenses as well as be able to help your wife in providing for your family, thus giving them a better quality of life. The fact that your wife and children would no longer be wasting their time and energy doing farm work that nets the family nothing, is just an added bonus in improving the entire family's quality of life. The problem with you is, that like with your wife's cheating, you do not take meaningful action when it comes to earning a living. You either learn to run the farm at a real profit that fairly compensates everyone for the assets and labor put into the business, or you sell the farm and find a job that really lets you earn a living. Your wife may be a cheater, but I would not blame your wife if she has lost respect for you for not doing what you need to do in order to best provide for yourself and family. I hate to be so tough on you, but you need to wake up and realize that the status quo is not working, and start do something about it.
> 
> With this in mind, get a job, sell the farm, and then confront your wife from a position of strength. Only then will she respect you enough to start to take you seriously. You are a good person. You can make life better for you and your family if that is your focus. Be well.


I appreciate that and your perspective. I respectfully say that farming always has been a very low margin business. The bank was happy that we netted 10% of our gross income for personal use.There are reasons very few people actually farm and those that do, farm well into their 70's before semi-retiring and then live off of assets for retirement. 

In addition, my problems with my wife go back to when I worked for others and had a steady income. I have considered the stresses of farming as a cause and they at least don't help but jay was around before this.


----------



## anchorwatch

The family farm business is one tough business. It goes from year to year, feast to famine. All the things you say about it, including needing the entire family to contribute, are true. It's a business that is negatively susceptible to many outside variables like bugs, disease, weather, demand, prices and now your wife. She doesn't seem to understand that keeping Jay around (divorce) is going to contribute to her family's business failing. Does she?


----------



## Bibi1031

If she is not an eminent threat to you or your kids, then why don't you separate amicably and still run a business? 

There is NO WAY this relationship is made out of love and is kept due to love. Well, make it a marriage of convenience then. She will and has not stopped cheating. You want out but can't due to finances. Why is this that I mentioned above not a doable route?

Notice I didn't mention divorce and you don't have to be divorced to both get from "this type of marriage" what you both need at this time. It's not perfect, but neither has the situation you have been in for quite some time either. Things don't have to be black and white. They grey area works best the majority of the time.


----------



## eric1

bremik said:


> I don't think so. But I am concerned how I am going to deal with things crashing down around me. We already dealt with major farm issues a few years ago. Things were supposed to get better - they haven't


You are confusing the issue so much. Get yourself out of infidelity first, bucko. 

You're not doing that. You're sitting here talking about farms and stuff. No offense, but you need to prioritize first. Just get out of infidelity. Nothing else matters right now.

The reality is that everything will be fine financially. You'll figure that out when the time comes, but right now you need to be blowing up their worlds.


----------



## Bremik

eric1 said:


> You are confusing the issue so much. Get yourself out of infidelity first, bucko.
> 
> You're not doing that. You're sitting here talking about farms and stuff. No offense, but you need to prioritize first. Just get out of infidelity. Nothing else matters right now.
> 
> The reality is that everything will be fine financially. You'll figure that out when the time comes, but right now you need to be blowing up their worlds.


I agree! Thank you for the re-focus!


----------



## Bremik

Bibi1031 said:


> If she is not an eminent threat to you or your kids, then why don't you separate amicably and still run a business?
> 
> There is NO WAY this relationship is made out of love and is kept due to love. Well, make it a marriage of convenience then. She will and has not stopped cheating. You want out but can't due to finances. Why is this that I mentioned above not a doable route?
> 
> Notice I didn't mention divorce and you don't have to be divorced to both get from "this type of marriage" what you both need at this time. It's not perfect, but neither has the situation you have been in for quite some time either. Things don't have to be black and white. They grey area works best the majority of the time.


This is a very interesting and outside the box thinking! It helps on many levels the current concerns I have!


----------



## Bibi1031

bremik said:


> This is a very interesting and outside the box thinking! It helps on many levels the current concerns I have!


Glad to be of service. This is a very common agreement in my native country and my culture.


----------



## Decorum

bremik said:


> This is a very interesting and outside the box thinking! It helps on many levels the current concerns I have!


That's right just tell her she has your permission to cheat, and you can still work down on the farm.


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> I respectfully say that farming always has been a very low margin business. The bank was happy that we netted 10% of our gross income for personal use.There are reasons very few people actually farm and those that do, farm well into their 70's before semi-retiring and then live off of assets for retirement.


 In saying that "farming always has been a very low margin business", that there "are reasons very few people actually farm", and you earlier explaining why it is a hard business to be in if you did not have the advantage of inheriting the farm, you are rationalizing why it is not your fault that you are losing money, but you are not giving any good reason for staying in the failing business. Having an excuse for failure is not the same as success. I know many good people that have closed their businesses due the Internet (for example a travel agent) when they started to lose money. The farming industry has moved to large industrial farmers and away from small family farmers. You gave it your best shot, now accept this reality and move. 



bremik said:


> In addition, my problems with my wife go back to when I worked for others and had a steady income. I have considered the stresses of farming as a cause and they at least don't help but jay was around before this.


 Although your "problems with my wife go back to when I worked for others and had a steady income", your inability to financially be able to do anything about it began when you became dependent on her income. You need to decide on either keeping the farm, or having the financial ability to tell your wife that it is either Jay or you.


----------



## Bremik

Decorum said:


> That's right just tell her she has your permission to cheat, and you can still work down on the farm.


yes I guess that would be a good point to. No easy way out is there? Of course some would argue- maybe rightfully so - I already have done that


----------



## Cynthia

TRy said:


> Although your "problems with my wife go back to when I worked for others and had a steady income", your inability to financially be able to do anything about it began when you became dependent on her income. You need to decide on either keeping the farm, or having the financial ability to tell your wife that it is either Jay or you.


She is clearly unwilling to give up Jay. She will just go deeper underground. She may wait it out for a bit, but it's super easy to cheat and keep it hidden. On TAM we discuss all the ways to catch a cheater, but the truth is that if someone wants to cheat and hide it, the only thing that will tell you they are cheating is your gut. You'll never get an ounce of proof if they have half a mind to seriously hide it.


----------



## Bremik

CynthiaDe said:


> She is clearly unwilling to give up Jay. She will just go deeper underground. She may wait it out for a bit, but it's super easy to cheat and keep it hidden. On TAM we discuss all the ways to catch a cheater, but the truth is that if someone wants to cheat and hide it, the only thing that will tell you they are cheating is your gut. You'll never get an ounce of proof if they have half a mind to seriously hide it.


It was just a freak chance that I found what I did recently. Luckily I knew what his farm's name was or may have still missed it. She doesn't want to answer why he uses the "farm" phone instead of his. I wonder if he is hiding things from his wife? He texted my wife at night a few times so you think he would have used his phone. You make good points thank you


----------



## lucy999

Forgive me if this has been discussed, but have you consulted a lawyer? Knowledge is power.


----------



## TRy

CynthiaDe said:


> She is clearly unwilling to give up Jay. She will just go deeper underground. She may wait it out for a bit, but it's super easy to cheat and keep it hidden. On TAM we discuss all the ways to catch a cheater, but the truth is that if someone wants to cheat and hide it, the only thing that will tell you they are cheating is your gut. You'll never get an ounce of proof if they have half a mind to seriously hide it.


 I completely agree with you, but in responding to the OP's post, I tailored my response to what I thought that the OP would be willing to actual do, with the actions that I am suggesting having the added benifit of letting him be financial able to end the marriage should he ever mentally get there. In getting him ready to truly be able to tell her that she needs to decide between Jay and the OP, the OP would also be ready to skip giving her such an ultimatum and just filing. Baby steps, baby steps.


----------



## Decorum

bremik said:


> yes I guess that would be a good point to. No easy way out is there? Of course some would argue- maybe rightfully so - I already have done that


Yeah it sucks. So sorry.


----------



## BobSimmons

bremik said:


> if people in general weren't the throw away society/jump ship at first wave we have become things might be better for all. But I do appreciate your input


If society were an every action must have an equal reaction then things would get sorted out much quicker.

You can't pat yourself on the back for inaction...especially with an unremorseful wife..there I bit.

Adieu.


----------



## theDrifter

I've tried to catch up on your posts but I have yet to determine whether you know if they are having sex - then or now?


----------



## Bibi1031

bremik said:


> yes I guess that would be a good point to. No easy way out is there? Of course some would argue- maybe rightfully so -* I already have done that*


Not really. She is still having an affair and lying to you about it. By reaching this "agreement" the lies end and freedom for both parties begins.

It's not what you signed up for initially, but it will work if both parties agree to the new terms.


Back when my marriage of 21 years exploded in Dec. of '03, I could NOT reach this agreement. Then WS wanted his cake and to eat it too. He did not love me, I still loved him and the betrayal ran very deep. Marriage to me meant there was two of us in it, with mutual loved between us. 

Present time, I am now detached and the love for him is not there. I could reach this agreement that I am stating here you could reach too. I would be financially set! Big perk for me and no loss. 

He doesn't want to marry again, he just wants to date and enjoy partners. He wants freedom to do so. Sadly, I don't think he would marry me again and make this a marriage of convenience because it won't be convenient for him. He doesn't need it, but I do. I want his SS retirement in full because it is going to get lost anyway and it won't affect him in any way either, but it won't benefit him in anything either. 

So I am screwed because I divorced in order to detach as it was too painful to stay married to a WS that had no love for me, no respect for me or our marriage and stupidly thought his OW would be a long lasting relationship.

Hindsight is 20/20 right? It's too late for me, but it is probably a great agreement for you as you have had plenty of years to detach and not see your WS as the loving woman that owns your heart anymore.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

bremik said:


> Now that I understand DARVO I can better answer your questions. Jay in my opinion was the start of all this. Whether it be simply because I should have put a stop to it then and yes was too scared or because it is some crazy long term affair that hasn't stopped- I have no idea- probably a combination of both and more factors.
> 
> Right now TODAY I had been of the opinion that jay wasn't an issue only because he is 4 states away and basically out of sight and out of mind. Had no illusions that if he were around he would be a problem. So that in itself really means deep down or whatever I really have known nothing has changed. The counseling, crying, talking, bleeding letters etc. haven't fixed the core problem.
> 
> The shock is he was still around I just was looking in the wrong places. As I have told my wife and TAM I am well aware of the cognitive effort my wife took in telling me more than once in the last year or two that she hadn't had contact with jay. Also aware of the effort it took to put his different ph number under his farm name instead of his and erase still more proof of their communication on top of going through the effort to make a point of telling me that due to trying to be transparent she wanted me to know she would have to communicate some with him because of her job yet didn't mention she already had been communicating with him all along.
> 
> What am I going to do? The only thing I can see is divorce at this point because of how calculated the above was and for me who it was with. I didn't see anything bad in what they texted - that I saw- but it is how it was all handled that concerns me. And most of all once again jay is still around. What is holding me back? Maybe an honest assessment is I stay on sinking ships too long. That being said, I am not of the mind frame right now to deal with ALL of my worlds collapsing at once and am trying to prepare a strategy for that. I will lose my job/career, my wife who has been a part of my life since both of our parents went to school together, some of my best memories of when I stayed with her family BEFORE we even remotely thought about dating as well as whatever crappy fallout there is from being in a backward nosy small town that has caused us grief since we moved here. Maybe 5-10 years from now I will be happy but the hell until then is going to border on being unbearable. I am not a fan of divorce, yes I am scared because I am the one pulling the trigger no matter how justified I am. And NOBODY on here knows enough about me or my situation to honestly assess if somehow I am part of this problem so yes I am scared 5-10 years won't find me any happier. Yes no matter how calculated her crying may be it does work on me with all this in mind


I'm not here to judge you, to tell you that you should do this or that... you have to live your life the best you can but at least know what you are willing to accept, thus willing to live.

I don't want to be EB2's second, and I don't share well, so if EB2 is going to have someone else in her life that she hides, then I have the need to know where she would really like to be, because I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me and who is willing to deceive me to have communications with another.

If she tells me she wants to be with me, then she needs to be with me in all things truthful, because I won't accept half-truths or a relationship that causes me to doubt her loyalty to our marriage, because if those doubts are there, I'm not. I may question other things that cause friction, and her I, but when I look in her eyes, there should only be my reflection there, anything less attracts pain that doesn't belong.

Love and trust... both would like to be unconditional yet each fraught with impermanence.

I've said, unconditional love is something that ebbs and flows based on how one chooses the limiting conditions, but trust... oh boy, this is something for me that must be clear in it’s presence and undisguised, clear of unmindful clutter and misunderstanding because at times one can behave in unloving ways and still the warmth comes back when the fussing is done... but when untrustworthiness hits, warm times to not return it to it's warm presence.

It doesn't mean that things will not work out for you because you cannot see them clearly now. If you don't trust enough, the torment continues... only you know which boundary you place is attainable.

If one were to place a boundary and make sure it's place and purpose are understood... one could then let go and remove themselves as part of any problem with the understanding everything else is outside of our control.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bremik said:


> It was just a freak chance that I found what I did recently. *Luckily I knew what his farm's name* was or may have still missed it. She doesn't want to answer why he uses the "farm" phone instead of his. I wonder if he is hiding things from his wife? He texted my wife at night a few times so you think he would have used his phone. You make good points thank you


Wow, this always amazes me. She found you in a package she liked, but he has his problems and you fit the parts she doesn't like about him. Sorry, man, eric1 is correct, infidelity needs to end and long before you start discussing divorce, reconciliation (which has never happened) and financials. You both are chumps for this woman.


----------



## Decorum

.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

bremik said:


> And NOBODY on here knows enough about me or my situation to honestly assess if somehow I am part of this problem so yes I am scared 5-10 years won't find me any happier.


 You have mentioned this a couple of times. The answer is that you have ZERO blame for her cheating on you. If things were so bad she should have divorced you and pursued J, but she didn't. You may carry responsibility for marital problems , but the cheating is 100% on her.You also mentioned you can't recognize any problems you may have caused but guessed at a few. Maybe you're not to blame. Maybe your wife is a self centered cheater who cares only for herself. I doubt the Nice guy that you are has considered that. You need to stop making excuses, and justifying your misery and follow @eric1 's advice to a tee. Filing for divorce does not mean you have to follow through with it , butif you deem it fit you can. The farm and all the other stuff will sort when the time comes. you can either be miserable plan B while your wife has a boyfriend or you can get yourself out of infidelity and go from there. The choice is obvious to us as well as you.Then you can work on making yourself a better you to assure yourself that you are not part of the problem in the future ,be it with your wife or any future relationships.


----------



## Affaircare

@bremik, 

I took a look at your past posts, all the way back to 2009, and I want to address a couple things. 

First, I do not tell people to divorce lightly. I'm very pro-marriage and believe people should do everything they can to save the marriage and family. That doesn't always mean the marriage survives--but it does mean you can hold your head up high because you did everything you could!

Second, I grew up on a farm, so I do understand how that whole cycle works unlike some folks who just haven't lived that life, so no need to explain that to me. I think that makes talking a whole lot easier, don't you?

Okay, so here's the way I see it--tell me if you notice anything I got incorrect. Way back in 2009 (eight years ago), you signed up for this forum and you wrote that you just had this gut feeling that your wife was way too chatty with this fella, Jay, who was her old interest back in the day...like college, pre-you. Now she did MARRY you and life seemed okay, but at some point she took a job in the same company Jay and his buddy work for--way different departments and all, but same company--and that was the door he used to start things up again. At first, they texted, and you didn't see a smoking gun that she was cheating, so you asked her to stop and she said you were jealous and/or controlling etc. 

Then you caught her at it again, and she said she was sorry but didn't stop. Then you caught her deleting texts, and caught her at it again and again, and a couple more times where she promised to stop but didn't. NOW--eight years later--she forgot her phone and you had a chance to look at it, and really she's been talking to this Jay fella all along, despite crying crocodile tears and telling you it was nothing and promising to stop, etc. They've been hiding it on a chat program, and she made his name be the name of his farm so you wouldn't be suspicious. 

And in your head you can't decide if it is an affair or not, and is it worth blowing up your world over or not, and you're afraid if you lose her income your farm will go bankrupt, etc. 
Is that about it??
______________________

Here's the thing: how do you define infidelity? unfaithfulness? adultery? 

My definition is *"Giving any affection, loyalty or companionship to any other person than me." * _(Disclaimer--I mean adult romantic love, not parent-child or siblings-family kind of love.) _ See, my Dear Hubby made a promise to me during our wedding that he would FORSAKE ALL OTHERS for me only, and that he would give 100% of his affection, 100% of his loyalty, and 100% of his companionship to me. So if he were to give some affection to another person (male or female), he would be giving away to them something that BELONGED TO ME. It's not his to give!

And if he gave some small bit of loyalty to some other person (male or female) above me, then he would be giving away to them something that was MINE! And finally if he preferred the companionship of some other person (male or female) over me and was giving them his "time" and "fun", then he would be taking from me something that he promised to only me!

So my definition of infidelity is being affectionate with someone other than your spouse--being loyal to someone other than your spouse--and preferring the companionship of someone else other than your spouse. 

Again--I'm talking about the kind of affection where you flirt, and get a thrill out of their attention, and send little hearts or get them little gifts, or give them compliments on their looks...adult romantic affection. And I'm talking about defending someone else or supporting them or having their back rather than being united and completely behind your spouse. And I'm talking about given the choice between spending time with your spouse and spending time with this other person...and you can't wait to spend time with someone else! Right? 

So using MY definition--give me 100% or it's unfaithfulness--you tell me? Has your wife been faithful? You tell me. Has she demonstrated to you WITH HER ACTIONS that she has given and is giving ALL OF HER AFFECTION to only you? Has she acted like she can not wait to kiss you or hold your hand or cuddle up with you on the couch? Don't think about her words--think about her ACTIONS for the last eight years.  

How about her loyalty? Has she demonstrated to you WITH HER ACTIONS that she is loyal to YOU and that she is standing behind her man? Has she acted like she has your back and would support you and be a united front with you even if she disagreed with you. Is it you and her against the world--or you against her? Don't think about her words--think about her ACTIONS for the last eight years.  

Finally let's consider companionship. Has she demonstrated to you WITH HER ACTIONS that she wants to spend time with you--both working and having fun? Does she act like she can't wait to be with you? Does she have fun with you? Does she enjoy your company and invest her time and energy with you? OR does she rush to get to her phone? Does she act like she can't wait to 'get this over with' so she can go back to doing something with someone else--or make excuses why she can't be with you? Does she find being with you boring, hurtful or just icky? Does she dislike your company and invest her time and energy with someone else? Don't think about her words--think about her ACTIONS for the last eight years.  

I think you have your answer. You don't really need to get any more of a smoking gun, do you? So what if she did or didn't sleep with some other person? 

So really the question isn't, "Did she have an affair?" because in real life you know the answer to that question. NO ONE spends eight years secretly talking/texting/chatting with some other man and not have at least an emotional affair. And she is not investing her affection, loyalty and companionship with YOU.

*The REAL issue here is facing reality*. You don't want this to be real. You want to think that maybe there's some magical thing you could do or magical thing you could say that would make her drop Jay like a hot potato and love you! You hope that we can give you some advice that will let you keep her income, keep your income, keep your marriage, keep your family and keep your farm. 

So here's the choice, @bremik. I believe in your heart you have known for a long time that what I'm saying is true. I am a Christian person, and I do not advocate for "open marriages" or "poly amory" or that sort of thing. But right now you get to choose: do you choose to accept how things have been going now for the past 8 years--or do you choose that the past 8 years are unacceptable and you will not continue. BOTH choices have a cost and a benefit:

*Accept how things are going*
Cost--You have to share your wife's heart and potentially her body with another man; you have to live in denial and constantly feel a little crazy
Benefit--You can keep your home and children and don't lose her income

*'How things are going' is unacceptable*
Cost-Lose her income, half the time with the kids, and VERY likely the farm
Benefit--You keep your self-worth because you are not sloppy seconds; you get to live in reality and have peace of mind

I won't kid you--a LOT of people choose to look past their spouse's infidelity in order to continue to live at their current standard of living. A LOT of people wring their hands and say they can't stand it anymore, and then make the decision to do nothing so they can keep their home, cars, property etc. They just don't want to say out loud that they are choosing to consciously pretend the affair didn't happen! 

For you, I think the most profitable thing you can do for yourself right now is just get this through your head: FACE THE TRUTH. Your wife has already been unfaithful to you for eight years. If you do not intend to do anything about it, that is your choice: I'd say just admit to yourself out loud that you are choosing to let your wife be unfaithful. On the other hand, if you do not intend to let her continue her adultery, then that would mean that you will need to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT...and that means that even though it hurts, you will have to live without her income and face possibly losing the farm. (Rather than lose the farm, if you actually love it why don't you show her the door and get a farm hand to help out in exchange for "room and board"? Just an idea! And before you say "Oh I just couldn't...." why not? Seriously?)

So @bremik figure that out first. FACE THE TRUTH. You tell us if you are going to choose to do nothing and accept it...or you are going to do something. If you are going to do nothing, I can't say everyone will agree with you, but at least you'd be honest with yourself and with us! But if you are going to do something, why then we'll talk again. 

Let me know.


----------



## GusPolinski

Andy1001 said:


> Yes I'm angry and it's YOU who is making me angry.There was a thread running earlier about how men shouldn't marry American women.I think American women know their own minds and value and know what they bring to any relationship,some may call them self entitled but I see it them as confident strong women.
> In your case it seems your wife's attitude is if you have an ass ride him.


Shouldn't you be changing diapers?


----------



## GusPolinski

@bremik, what kinds of things did you find in the texts?

Any ILU's?

Any sexting?

Constant, prolonged contact or just an occasional text?

Were they ever -- at least as far as you're aware -- a couple, legimate or otherwise?


----------



## 225985

GusPolinski said:


> Shouldn't you be changing diapers?




He has staff for that.


----------



## Andy1001

GusPolinski said:


> Shouldn't you be changing diapers?


I'm working my way up to it.


----------



## Evinrude58

Ok, I don't totally understand.
Are your wife and jay lovers?

What exactly are they texting about? Do you think she goes to see him and has sex?

I'm not in any way excusing the fact that another man is receiving your wife's attention.

I'm just not getting it. You say that there's nothing really bad in the texts. I would think there would be. 

Are they lovers, or not?

If not, can you live with this crap?

Do you think your wife loves you, do you get lots of sex? Does she look forward to going places with you?

Please explain. I don't want to have to go. Ask to 2009 threads.

I just don't totally get her relationship with the jay guy. It's almost stupid sounding. 

And have you had a discussion with jay's wife? Jay? If not, are you scared?

Do SOMETHING, if you're not happy. It's been 8 years, after all.


----------



## Andy1001

blueinbr said:


> He has staff for that.


Some liar on this forum told me new babies poop doesn't stink.
I have news for you buddy.....


----------



## eric1

GusPolinski said:


> @bremik, what kinds of things did you find in the texts?
> 
> 
> 
> Any ILU's?
> 
> 
> 
> Any sexting?
> 
> 
> 
> Constant, prolonged contact or just an occasional text?
> 
> 
> 
> Were they ever -- at least as far as you're aware -- a couple, legimate or otherwise?




I am with Gus here. While it was cheating her going through all of this to maintain a relationship with this loser, the next steps are highly dependent upon what kind of relationship she is having.


----------



## Bremik

theDrifter said:


> I've tried to catch up on your posts but I have yet to determine whether you know if they are having sex - then or now?


No never have and she has consistently and strongly denied it the whole time


----------



## Bremik

Emerging Buddhist said:


> I'm not here to judge you, to tell you that you should do this or that... you have to live your life the best you can but at least know what you are willing to accept, thus willing to live.
> 
> I don't want to be EB2's second, and I don't share well, so if EB2 is going to have someone else in her life that she hides, then I have the need to know where she would really like to be, because I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me and who is willing to deceive me to have communications with another.
> 
> If she tells me she wants to be with me, then she needs to be with me in all things truthful, because I won't accept half-truths or a relationship that causes me to doubt her loyalty to our marriage, because if those doubts are there, I'm not. I may question other things that cause friction, and her I, but when I look in her eyes, there should only be my reflection there, anything less attracts pain that doesn't belong.
> 
> Love and trust... both would like to be unconditional yet each fraught with impermanence.
> 
> I've said, unconditional love is something that ebbs and flows based on how one chooses the limiting conditions, but trust... oh boy, this is something for me that must be clear in it’s presence and undisguised, clear of unmindful clutter and misunderstanding because at times one can behave in unloving ways and still the warmth comes back when the fussing is done... but when untrustworthiness hits, warm times to not return it to it's warm presence.
> 
> It doesn't mean that things will not work out for you because you cannot see them clearly now. If you don't trust enough, the torment continues... only you know which boundary you place is attainable.
> 
> If one were to place a boundary and make sure it's place and purpose are understood... one could then let go and remove themselves as part of any problem with the understanding everything else is outside of our control.


Very well put!


----------



## Bremik

Rubix Cubed said:


> You have mentioned this a couple of times. The answer is that you have ZERO blame for her cheating on you. If things were so bad she should have divorced you and pursued J, but she didn't. You may carry responsibility for marital problems , but the cheating is 100% on her.You also mentioned you can't recognize any problems you may have caused but guessed at a few. Maybe you're not to blame. Maybe your wife is a self centered cheater who cares only for herself. I doubt the Nice guy that you are has considered that. You need to stop making excuses, and justifying your misery and follow @eric1 's advice to a tee. Filing for divorce does not mean you have to follow through with it , butif you deem it fit you can. The farm and all the other stuff will sort when the time comes. you can either be miserable plan B while your wife has a boyfriend or you can get yourself out of infidelity and go from there. The choice is obvious to us as well as you.Then you can work on making yourself a better you to assure yourself that you are not part of the problem in the future ,be it with your wife or any future relationships.


You and eric1 do a great job of staying focused! Awesome, thanks!


----------



## Bremik

Affaircare said:


> @bremik,
> 
> I took a look at your past posts, all the way back to 2009, and I want to address a couple things.
> 
> First, I do not tell people to divorce lightly. I'm very pro-marriage and believe people should do everything they can to save the marriage and family. That doesn't always mean the marriage survives--but it does mean you can hold your head up high because you did everything you could!
> 
> Second, I grew up on a farm, so I do understand how that whole cycle works unlike some folks who just haven't lived that life, so no need to explain that to me. I think that makes talking a whole lot easier, don't you?
> 
> Okay, so here's the way I see it--tell me if you notice anything I got incorrect. Way back in 2009 (eight years ago), you signed up for this forum and you wrote that you just had this gut feeling that your wife was way too chatty with this fella, Jay, who was her old interest back in the day...like college, pre-you. Now she did MARRY you and life seemed okay, but at some point she took a job in the same company Jay and his buddy work for--way different departments and all, but same company--and that was the door he used to start things up again. At first, they texted, and you didn't see a smoking gun that she was cheating, so you asked her to stop and she said you were jealous and/or controlling etc.
> 
> Then you caught her at it again, and she said she was sorry but didn't stop. Then you caught her deleting texts, and caught her at it again and again, and a couple more times where she promised to stop but didn't. NOW--eight years later--she forgot her phone and you had a chance to look at it, and really she's been talking to this Jay fella all along, despite crying crocodile tears and telling you it was nothing and promising to stop, etc. They've been hiding it on a chat program, and she made his name be the name of his farm so you wouldn't be suspicious.
> 
> And in your head you can't decide if it is an affair or not, and is it worth blowing up your world over or not, and you're afraid if you lose her income your farm will go bankrupt, etc.
> Is that about it??
> ______________________
> 
> Here's the thing: how do you define infidelity? unfaithfulness? adultery?
> 
> My definition is *"Giving any affection, loyalty or companionship to any other person than me." * _(Disclaimer--I mean adult romantic love, not parent-child or siblings-family kind of love.) _ See, my Dear Hubby made a promise to me during our wedding that he would FORSAKE ALL OTHERS for me only, and that he would give 100% of his affection, 100% of his loyalty, and 100% of his companionship to me. So if he were to give some affection to another person (male or female), he would be giving away to them something that BELONGED TO ME. It's not his to give!
> 
> And if he gave some small bit of loyalty to some other person (male or female) above me, then he would be giving away to them something that was MINE! And finally if he preferred the companionship of some other person (male or female) over me and was giving them his "time" and "fun", then he would be taking from me something that he promised to only me!
> 
> So my definition of infidelity is being affectionate with someone other than your spouse--being loyal to someone other than your spouse--and preferring the companionship of someone else other than your spouse.
> 
> Again--I'm talking about the kind of affection where you flirt, and get a thrill out of their attention, and send little hearts or get them little gifts, or give them compliments on their looks...adult romantic affection. And I'm talking about defending someone else or supporting them or having their back rather than being united and completely behind your spouse. And I'm talking about given the choice between spending time with your spouse and spending time with this other person...and you can't wait to spend time with someone else! Right?
> 
> So using MY definition--give me 100% or it's unfaithfulness--you tell me? Has your wife been faithful? You tell me. Has she demonstrated to you WITH HER ACTIONS that she has given and is giving ALL OF HER AFFECTION to only you? Has she acted like she can not wait to kiss you or hold your hand or cuddle up with you on the couch? Don't think about her words--think about her ACTIONS for the last eight years.
> 
> How about her loyalty? Has she demonstrated to you WITH HER ACTIONS that she is loyal to YOU and that she is standing behind her man? Has she acted like she has your back and would support you and be a united front with you even if she disagreed with you. Is it you and her against the world--or you against her? Don't think about her words--think about her ACTIONS for the last eight years.
> 
> Finally let's consider companionship. Has she demonstrated to you WITH HER ACTIONS that she wants to spend time with you--both working and having fun? Does she act like she can't wait to be with you? Does she have fun with you? Does she enjoy your company and invest her time and energy with you? OR does she rush to get to her phone? Does she act like she can't wait to 'get this over with' so she can go back to doing something with someone else--or make excuses why she can't be with you? Does she find being with you boring, hurtful or just icky? Does she dislike your company and invest her time and energy with someone else? Don't think about her words--think about her ACTIONS for the last eight years.
> 
> I think you have your answer. You don't really need to get any more of a smoking gun, do you? So what if she did or didn't sleep with some other person?
> 
> So really the question isn't, "Did she have an affair?" because in real life you know the answer to that question. NO ONE spends eight years secretly talking/texting/chatting with some other man and not have at least an emotional affair. And she is not investing her affection, loyalty and companionship with YOU.
> 
> *The REAL issue here is facing reality*. You don't want this to be real. You want to think that maybe there's some magical thing you could do or magical thing you could say that would make her drop Jay like a hot potato and love you! You hope that we can give you some advice that will let you keep her income, keep your income, keep your marriage, keep your family and keep your farm.
> 
> So here's the choice, @bremik. I believe in your heart you have known for a long time that what I'm saying is true. I am a Christian person, and I do not advocate for "open marriages" or "poly amory" or that sort of thing. But right now you get to choose: do you choose to accept how things have been going now for the past 8 years--or do you choose that the past 8 years are unacceptable and you will not continue. BOTH choices have a cost and a benefit:
> 
> *Accept how things are going*
> Cost--You have to share your wife's heart and potentially her body with another man; you have to live in denial and constantly feel a little crazy
> Benefit--You can keep your home and children and don't lose her income
> 
> *'How things are going' is unacceptable*
> Cost-Lose her income, half the time with the kids, and VERY likely the farm
> Benefit--You keep your self-worth because you are not sloppy seconds; you get to live in reality and have peace of mind
> 
> I won't kid you--a LOT of people choose to look past their spouse's infidelity in order to continue to live at their current standard of living. A LOT of people wring their hands and say they can't stand it anymore, and then make the decision to do nothing so they can keep their home, cars, property etc. They just don't want to say out loud that they are choosing to consciously pretend the affair didn't happen!
> 
> For you, I think the most profitable thing you can do for yourself right now is just get this through your head: FACE THE TRUTH. Your wife has already been unfaithful to you for eight years. If you do not intend to do anything about it, that is your choice: I'd say just admit to yourself out loud that you are choosing to let your wife be unfaithful. On the other hand, if you do not intend to let her continue her adultery, then that would mean that you will need to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT...and that means that even though it hurts, you will have to live without her income and face possibly losing the farm. (Rather than lose the farm, if you actually love it why don't you show her the door and get a farm hand to help out in exchange for "room and board"? Just an idea! And before you say "Oh I just couldn't...." why not? Seriously?)
> 
> So @bremik figure that out first. FACE THE TRUTH. You tell us if you are going to choose to do nothing and accept it...or you are going to do something. If you are going to do nothing, I can't say everyone will agree with you, but at least you'd be honest with yourself and with us! But if you are going to do something, why then we'll talk again.
> 
> Let me know.


I feel like I should pay you for that! That was extremely well thought out and hit the nail on the head. In fact it really hit home with me because I have told my wife numerous times that her actions don't match her words. And I think I said on here that even though jay lived states away and SEEMED to be out of the picture I knew that at the very least if any type of contact occurred it would be more of the same. So yes I always knew deep down he wasn't really 
gone. Thank you very much!!!


----------



## Bremik

GusPolinski said:


> @bremik, what kinds of things did you find in the texts?
> 
> Any ILU's?
> 
> Any sexting?
> 
> Constant, prolonged contact or just an occasional text?
> 
> Were they ever -- at least as far as you're aware -- a couple, legimate or otherwise?


Well it's about time Gus- that title was totally directed at you for good advice long ago! No ILU, sexting, and no on couple as far as I know- We were married the whole time she was in college and she wouldn't have known him before then. As far as the recent texting there are April and October texts- the big issue is none of those texts appeared to be the first time they have contacted each other in awhile, she wasn't supposed to have any contact with him by what she told me and by my request and most importantly she has a new unpublished ph number so how did he get it. Also the October texts were around a large dairy event in WI that my wife had been to in the last few years without me and swore she didn't see him yet here was this text trying to find out if she- not we- was coming up so it brings into question whether she had seen him or not in other years.


----------



## ButtPunch

bremik said:


> Also the October texts were around a large dairy event in WI that my wife had been to in the last few years without me and swore she didn't see him yet here was this text trying to find out if she- not we- was coming up so it brings into question whether she had seen him or not in other years.


You already know the answer to this. Sorry.


----------



## Bremik

eric1 said:


> I am with Gus here. While it was cheating her going through all of this to maintain a relationship with this loser, the next steps are highly dependent upon what kind of relationship she is having.


This is the guy that she -even though he had male roommates- had spent the night supposedly on his couch because she was too drunk to get home and neither she nor he called to tell me. He was the one always partying with her. He was the one she confided to in college when we had arguments about her staying out late to where he would tell her to ignore me and I had no right. He was the one that everytime we went to WI to a dairy event would get her to go off with him and pals when she was supposed to meet up with me after we had been apart for the day. He was the one who left the- what he thought was a funny- message at 2 am that she should get it on with another co-worker and how lucky that guy was. He was the one that she sat next to on the company trips while wearing what I would have considered one of her sexiest outfits. He was the one that came down on business and when we went out to eat in separate vehicles he asked her if she wanted to ride with him - I was the other driver! Maybe you get the idea by now?


----------



## Bremik

lucy999 said:


> Forgive me if this has been discussed, but have you consulted a lawyer? Knowledge is power.


No I have not yet


----------



## lucy999

bremik said:


> No I have not yet


I urge you to consider just getting a consultation. It is usually free. I realize you are not at that mindset right now and I understand. But I think that at least some of your fears could be put to rest once a lawyer tells you how the financials would pan out. It really wouldn't hurt to just go consult with one.

Eta: seeing a lawyer does not mean you have to do anything further. You can choose to take absolutely no action. The choice is yours. I just think it would behoove you to stop operating from a place of fear and start operating from a place of knowledge, at least.


----------



## eric1

You have a lot of unknowns. It's not a certainty that this is an affair but it's certainly a betrayal of trust at this point.

You need to get to the bottom of how she and he traded contact information. If she is unwilling to do so then you should proceed as if this was a standard infidelity case and visit a lawyer, expose and the full transparency as a requirement for any hope of reconciliation.


----------



## Bremik

TRy said:


> You may understand farming, but you saying "NETS the most not makes the most" shows that you do not understand business. If you spend more to run a business than you
> you earn from that business, then the business "makes" nothing, and in fact loses money. Currently you have your wife, children, and you, working in a business that loses money, such that what your wife makes is used to not only pay 100% of your living expenses, but is also used to cover the loses of your the farm business. If you got out of the farm business, got a job that actually pays you, not only would part of what your wife earns no longer be used to cover the farm's loses, but you would be able to provide for your own living expenses as well as be able to help your wife in providing for your family, thus giving them a better quality of life. The fact that your wife and children would no longer be wasting their time and energy doing farm work that nets the family nothing, is just an added bonus in improving the entire family's quality of life. The problem with you is, that like with your wife's cheating, you do not take meaningful action when it comes to earning a living. You either learn to run the farm at a real profit that fairly compensates everyone for the assets and labor put into the business, or you sell the farm and find a job that really lets you earn a living. Your wife may be a cheater, but I would not blame your wife if she has lost respect for you for not doing what you need to do in order to best provide for yourself and family. I hate to be so tough on you, but you need to wake up and realize that the status quo is not working, and start do something about it.
> 
> With this in mind, get a job, sell the farm, and then confront your wife from a position of strength. Only then will she respect you enough to start to take you seriously. You are a good person. You can make life better for you and your family if that is your focus. Be well.


I am sorry to jack my own thread and go back to this but there have been false assumptions made due to interpreting data the wrong way on this farming issue and also how it has affected my children in a negative way. Try I am not picking on you it is just your thread had about everything that people have referenced when talking about the farm. I have 3 children. The 20 year old will be completing his Associate's Degree in Agriculture Mechanization and systems and already has a job with a local concrete business pouring concrete for various ag projects as well as private and will start out at $25/hr because the owner is so thrilled at my son's ability to think, comprehend, improvise and work hard. He also wants to farm. My 2nd oldest will be graduating HS and is going to college pre-vet with the desire to be a large animal veterinarian and help with the farm. He currently helps milk, is in charge of feeding cows and comes up with his own farm improvement projects. My youngest is 16 and she is actively involved with milking and feeding calves- for that matter they all are involved in the farm. All kids have been A/B honor roll and the senior got inducted into the National Honor Society this year. My 2 youngest just finished in the high top end of FFA and 4 H dairy judging in the state. All children know how to work, improvise, understand the cycle of life and are in high demand by many people in the community due to their work ethic. We don't have dish tv or cable, or video games or a tv half the size of the house. My kids drive vehicles as old as 40 yrs and don't complain. I would put my kids up against anyone's and would ask anyone on here to think twice if you think somehow the life I have given my children has damaged them or held them back. It isn't a martyr complex to be able to look at the BIG PICTURE and realize that I am setting my children up to be the 2nd generation on this farm and they will have those advantages I didn't have- this IS how farming works. And yes I would do this all again because it sure looks to me like they have appreciated what they grew up in, benefited from it and are returning to it. I am proud that my children aren't the stereotypical couch potato video playing overweight kid everyone is obsessed with these days.


----------



## Bremik

lucy999 said:


> I urge you to consider just getting a consultation. It is usually free. I realize you are not at that mindset right now and I understand. But I think that at least some of your fears could be put to rest once a lawyer tells you how the financials would pan out. It really wouldn't hurt to just go consult with one.
> 
> Eta: seeing a lawyer does not mean you have to do anything further. You can choose to take absolutely no action. The choice is yours. I just think it would behoove you to stop operating from a place of fear and start operating from a place of knowledge, at least.


Thank you for your input - I WILL do this


----------



## MAJDEATH

bremik said:


> TRy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You may understand farming, but you saying "NETS the most not makes the most" shows that you do not understand business. If you spend more to run a business than you
> you earn from that business, then the business "makes" nothing, and in fact loses money. Currently you have your wife, children, and you, working in a business that loses money, such that what your wife makes is used to not only pay 100% of your living expenses, but is also used to cover the loses of your the farm business. If you got out of the farm business, got a job that actually pays you, not only would part of what your wife earns no longer be used to cover the farm's loses, but you would be able to provide for your own living expenses as well as be able to help your wife in providing for your family, thus giving them a better quality of life. The fact that your wife and children would no longer be wasting their time and energy doing farm work that nets the family nothing, is just an added bonus in improving the entire family's quality of life. The problem with you is, that like with your wife's cheating, you do not take meaningful action when it comes to earning a living. You either learn to run the farm at a real profit that fairly compensates everyone for the assets and labor put into the business, or you sell the farm and find a job that really lets you earn a living. Your wife may be a cheater, but I would not blame your wife if she has lost respect for you for not doing what you need to do in order to best provide for yourself and family. I hate to be so tough on you, but you need to wake up and realize that the status quo is not working, and start do something about it.
> 
> With this in mind, get a job, sell the farm, and then confront your wife from a position of strength. Only then will she respect you enough to start to take you seriously. You are a good person. You can make life better for you and your family if that is your focus. Be well.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry to jack my own thread and go back to this but there have been false assumptions made due to interpreting data the wrong way on this farming issue and also how it has affected my children in a negative way. Try I am not picking on you it is just your thread had about everything that people have referenced when talking about the farm. I have 3 children. The 20 year old will be completing his Associate's Degree in Agriculture Mechanization and systems and already has a job with a local concrete business pouring concrete for various ag projects as well as private and will start out at $25/hr because the owner is so thrilled at my son's ability to think, comprehend, improvise and work hard. He also wants to farm. My 2nd oldest will be graduating HS and is going to college pre-vet with the desire to be a large animal veterinarian and help with the farm. He currently helps milk, is in charge of feeding cows and comes up with his own farm improvement projects. My youngest is 16 and she is actively involved with milking and feeding calves- for that matter they all are involved in the farm. All kids have been A/B honor roll and the senior got inducted into the National Honor Society this year. My 2 youngest just finished in the high top end of FFA and 4 H dairy judging in the state. All children know how to work, improvise, understand the cycle of life and are in high demand by many people in the community due to their work ethic. We don't have dish tv or cable, or video games or a tv half the size of the house. My kids drive vehicles as old as 40 yrs and don't complain. I would put my kids up against anyone's and would ask anyone on here to think twice if you think somehow the life I have given my children has damaged them or held them back. It isn't a martyr complex to be able to look at the BIG PICTURE and realize that I am setting my children up to be the 2nd generation on this farm and they will have those advantages I didn't have- this IS how farming works. And yes I would do this all again because it sure looks to me like they have appreciated what they grew up in, benefited from it and are returning to it. I am proud that my children aren't the stereotypical couch potato video playing overweight kid everyone is obsessed with these days.
Click to expand...

Tell your kids about their mom's behavior. They are old enough to handle it.


----------



## MAJDEATH

And I also would consider reaching out to Jay and saying something between these 2 extremes:
1 we are trying to work on our marriage and your involvement is not welcome, so please stop all contact with my W
2 if you make contact with my W again, in any form, I will find you and beat your head in with a baseball bat


----------



## MyRevelation

bremik said:


> This is the guy that she -even though he had male roommates- had spent the night supposedly on his couch because she was too drunk to get home and neither she nor he called to tell me. He was the one always partying with her. He was the one she confided to in college when we had arguments about her staying out late to where he would tell her to ignore me and I had no right. He was the one that everytime we went to WI to a dairy event would get her to go off with him and pals when she was supposed to meet up with me after we had been apart for the day. He was the one who left the- what he thought was a funny- message at 2 am that she should get it on with another co-worker and how lucky that guy was. He was the one that she sat next to on the company trips while wearing what I would have considered one of her sexiest outfits. He was the one that came down on business and when we went out to eat in separate vehicles he asked her if she wanted to ride with him - I was the other driver! Maybe you get the idea by now?


JESUS ... if I'm keeping up correctly and based on the above, this has been 20+ years of disrespect from WW and OM (and yes, if they've been this "chummy" for 20+ years, this is a LTPA ... it just can't be otherwise) and lack of self-respect of OP. She has blatantly rubbed Jay in your face for over 20 years and has chosen him over you, seemingly every time. If I'm correct, then I'm backing out of this one as this is just too much dysfunction for a anonymous infidelity forum to adequately address. You need professional help ... I'd start with an attorney that has a good working relationship with a private investigator, because it appears you are clueless about what is going on in your own life.


----------



## Malaise

bremik said:


> This is the guy that she -even though he had male roommates- had spent the night supposedly on his couch because she was too drunk to get home and neither she nor he called to tell me. He was the one always partying with her. He was the one she confided to in college when we had arguments about her staying out late to where he would tell her to ignore me and I had no right. He was the one that everytime we went to WI to a dairy event would get her to go off with him and pals when she was supposed to meet up with me after we had been apart for the day. He was the one who left the- what he thought was a funny- message at 2 am that she should get it on with another co-worker and how lucky that guy was. He was the one that she sat next to on the company trips while wearing what I would have considered one of her sexiest outfits. He was the one that came down on business and when we went out to eat in separate vehicles he asked her if she wanted to ride with him - I was the other driver! Maybe you get the idea by now?


I get the idea she was alone with this guy a lot.

And she swears nothing physical happened ? 

And you believe her ?

Why should she stop with this guy if you know all of this and haven't raised holy hell about it?


----------



## Chaparral

So you haven't asked her to take a polygraph?

At the beginning of this particular thread more than one man was mentioned. Is their actually a worry she has been unfaithful with more than one man?

Have you discussed this wth Jay's wife?

Long term affair partners don't usually talk/text each other any differently than long term marriage partners. So no sexting or discussing things regarding their sex life means nothing.


----------



## Cynthia

Thank you for explaining how you have worked to get to the point that loans are paid off and the farm is doing better. Also how your entire family is involved and this is a multi-generational project. It puts things into a different light than you simply wanting to do this despite it having no future and not bringing in enough to support you. It explains why you are having such trouble with the idea of divorce.

So you have two years before things change regarding the farm? I still think you need to look into how divorce would impact you and if you would be able to keep the farm for the family. If you don't know what all your options are, you cannot really make a decision, which will keep you in limbo indefinitely. 

Right now you do know that your wife has been lying to you and putting another man between you. That is a betrayal whether or not she has been sexually involved with him. I think you also realize that the chances of there being no sexual tie is extremely remote. Is there are way you can live with her for two more years knowing this? Do you have a spare bedroom she could move into?


----------



## Evinrude58

bremik said:


> This is the guy that she -even though he had male roommates- had spent the night supposedly on his couch because she was too drunk to get home and neither she nor he called to tell me. He was the one always partying with her. He was the one she confided to in college when we had arguments about her staying out late to where he would tell her to ignore me and I had no right. He was the one that everytime we went to WI to a dairy event would get her to go off with him and pals when she was supposed to meet up with me after we had been apart for the day. He was the one who left the- what he thought was a funny- message at 2 am that she should get it on with another co-worker and how lucky that guy was. He was the one that she sat next to on the company trips while wearing what I would have considered one of her sexiest outfits. He was the one that came down on business and when we went out to eat in separate vehicles he asked her if she wanted to ride with him - I was the other driver! Maybe you get the idea by now?


I hate to say this, but this is all on you, Bro. You've tolerated the disrespect, the flirting, the having him as an extra boyfriend all this time. Why are you upset NOW?

Geez, in my younger days, it would be time for a flat out arse-whipping and putting this guy down the road--- and if she came to his defense, I'd have put her down the road, too. I know now she's your wife and you've become attached. But you allowing this behavior is just as unreasonable as your wife staying involved in it.


----------



## Evinrude58

bremik said:


> No never have and she has consistently and strongly denied it the whole time


She is a proven liar. What difference does it make that she's denied it-- consistently or otherwise. What do YOU think? Not what you want to think, what do you think??


----------



## BetrayedDad

bremik said:


> This is the guy that she -even though he had male roommates- had spent the night supposedly on his couch because she was too drunk to get home and neither she nor he called to tell me. He was the one always partying with her. He was the one she confided to in college when we had arguments about her staying out late to where he would tell her to ignore me and I had no right. He was the one that everytime we went to WI to a dairy event would get her to go off with him and pals when she was supposed to meet up with me after we had been apart for the day. He was the one who left the- what he thought was a funny- message at 2 am that she should get it on with another co-worker and how lucky that guy was. He was the one that she sat next to on the company trips while wearing what I would have considered one of her sexiest outfits. He was the one that came down on business and when we went out to eat in separate vehicles he asked her if she wanted to ride with him - I was the other driver! Maybe you get the idea by now?


I don't know what else you say except you're being a damn fool if you think these two haven't had sex.

You only have one deep soul searching question to ask yourself, "What's more important to me? My self respect or money?"

Hint: You can always make more money but shame stays with you forever. It's shameful you're not calling her "ex" by now.


----------



## Affaircare

bremik said:


> I feel like I should pay you for that! That was extremely well thought out and hit the nail on the head. In fact it really hit home with me because I have told my wife numerous times that her actions don't match her words. And I think I said on here that even though jay lived states away and SEEMED to be out of the picture I knew that at the very least if any type of contact occurred it would be more of the same. So yes I always knew deep down he wasn't really
> gone. Thank you very much!!!


You're welcome, @bremik, but I notice you didn't answer the question I asked you. Here, let me say it again, shorter:

_For you, I think the most profitable thing you can do for yourself right now is just get this through your head: FACE THE TRUTH. Your wife has already been unfaithful to you for eight years. 

If you do not intend to do anything about it, that is your choice: I'd say just admit to yourself out loud that you are choosing to let your wife be unfaithful. 

On the other hand, if you do not intend to continue to allow adultery in your marriage, then that would mean that you will need to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT...and that means that even though it hurts, you will have to live without her income and face possibly losing the farm. 

So @bremik figure that out first. FACE THE TRUTH. *You tell us if you are going to choose to do nothing and accept it...or you are going to do something. *If you are going to do nothing, I can't say everyone will agree with you, but at least you'd be honest with yourself and with us! But if you are going to do something, why then we'll talk again. 

Let me know._

I highlighted a couple spots to make it easier to see. 

Here's the thing: it sounds to me like you love your life (in a way). You love your farm and you love your kids and how they help you with the farm, and financially you work and she works and by pooling everything even the farm is pulling ahead pretty well (by the way, I am very impressed you managed to make 10% in the first couple years--that is AMAZING!). The only thing that is a stick in the mud (if you will) is that your wife has an AP on the side. You believe he's primarily an emotional affair, but still he's there and has been there the whole marriage, and she has gone to huge lengths to hide him from you this whole time. 

I think the time has come to just *decide *if you're going to accept the AP on the side in exchange for keeping the farm and kids--or if you're unwilling to accept an AP in your marriage but risk the farm and kids. I'm not being mean--just pick one and know that you made the choice!

If you choose to accept the AP in exchange for keeping the farm and the kids, then we can talk to you about how to accept something you find a "bitter pill" or something that is hard. I honestly doubt you'll ever be very happy IN YOUR MARRIAGE because you'd prefer to control her and "make her stop" and she's not going to stop (no matter what promises she makes). Can you accept that and find happiness in other areas of your life?

If you choose to NOT accept infidelity in your marriage relationship, then we can talk to you about how to focus on taking one step at a time, and controlling YOU (not her), and setting a boundary AROUND YOU that says you'll only accept 100% faithful partner and here's what that looks like... I am not sure you'll be happy IN YOUR LIFE for a while if you make this choice, because for a while, as you learn to stand up for yourself and expect respect from your marriage partner, the change is likely to cause some drama between you two--the dynamic has changed and she likes the dynamic where she has you as finances and service, and him for fun and compliments. 

So I'll ask right out: what is your decision?


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> This is the guy that she -even though he had male roommates- had spent the night supposedly on his couch because she was too drunk to get home and neither she nor he called to tell me. He was the one always partying with her. He was the one she confided to in college when we had arguments about her staying out late to where he would tell her to ignore me and I had no right. He was the one that everytime we went to WI to a dairy event would get her to go off with him and pals when she was supposed to meet up with me after we had been apart for the day. He was the one who left the- what he thought was a funny- message at 2 am that she should get it on with another co-worker and how lucky that guy was. He was the one that she sat next to on the company trips while wearing what I would have considered one of her sexiest outfits. He was the one that came down on business and when we went out to eat in separate vehicles he asked her if she wanted to ride with him - I was the other driver! Maybe you get the idea by now?


And you put up with this?


----------



## BetrayedDad

Affaircare said:


> _For you, I think the most profitable thing you can do for yourself right now is just get this through your head: FACE THE TRUTH. Your wife has already been unfaithful to you for eight years.
> 
> If you do not intend to do anything about it, that is your choice: I'd say just admit to yourself out loud that you are choosing to let your wife be unfaithful.
> 
> On the other hand, if you do not intend to continue to allow adultery in your marriage, then that would mean that you will need to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT...and that means that even though it hurts, you will have to live without her income and face possibly losing the farm.
> 
> So @bremik figure that out first. FACE THE TRUTH. *You tell us if you are going to choose to do nothing and accept it...or you are going to do something. *If you are going to do nothing, I can't say everyone will agree with you, but at least you'd be honest with yourself and with us! But if you are going to do something, why then we'll talk again.
> 
> Let me know._


Unfortunately, he's just another one of these BS' that like to come to TAM to vent cause it makes them feel good.

But they are either unwilling to rock the boat or too scared to actually do the heavy lifting to BETTER their lives. 

It's just far easier for them to stick their heads back into the sand, to use OP's metaphor. He knows what he needs to do.

The rest of everyone else's input is just wasted keystrokes.


----------



## Bremik

Affaircare said:


> You're welcome, @bremik, but I notice you didn't answer the question I asked you. Here, let me say it again, shorter:
> 
> _For you, I think the most profitable thing you can do for yourself right now is just get this through your head: FACE THE TRUTH. Your wife has already been unfaithful to you for eight years.
> 
> If you do not intend to do anything about it, that is your choice: I'd say just admit to yourself out loud that you are choosing to let your wife be unfaithful.
> 
> On the other hand, if you do not intend to continue to allow adultery in your marriage, then that would mean that you will need to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT...and that means that even though it hurts, you will have to live without her income and face possibly losing the farm.
> 
> So @bremik figure that out first. FACE THE TRUTH. *You tell us if you are going to choose to do nothing and accept it...or you are going to do something. *If you are going to do nothing, I can't say everyone will agree with you, but at least you'd be honest with yourself and with us! But if you are going to do something, why then we'll talk again.
> 
> Let me know._
> 
> I highlighted a couple spots to make it easier to see.
> 
> Here's the thing: it sounds to me like you love your life (in a way). You love your farm and you love your kids and how they help you with the farm, and financially you work and she works and by pooling everything even the farm is pulling ahead pretty well (by the way, I am very impressed you managed to make 10% in the first couple years--that is AMAZING!). The only thing that is a stick in the mud (if you will) is that your wife has an AP on the side. You believe he's primarily an emotional affair, but still he's there and has been there the whole marriage, and she has gone to huge lengths to hide him from you this whole time.
> 
> I think the time has come to just *decide *if you're going to accept the AP on the side in exchange for keeping the farm and kids--or if you're unwilling to accept an AP in your marriage but risk the farm and kids. I'm not being mean--just pick one and know that you made the choice!
> 
> If you choose to accept the AP in exchange for keeping the farm and the kids, then we can talk to you about how to accept something you find a "bitter pill" or something that is hard. I honestly doubt you'll ever be very happy IN YOUR MARRIAGE because you'd prefer to control her and "make her stop" and she's not going to stop (no matter what promises she makes). Can you accept that and find happiness in other areas of your life?
> 
> If you choose to NOT accept infidelity in your marriage relationship, then we can talk to you about how to focus on taking one step at a time, and controlling YOU (not her), and setting a boundary AROUND YOU that says you'll only accept 100% faithful partner and here's what that looks like... I am not sure you'll be happy IN YOUR LIFE for a while if you make this choice, because for a while, as you learn to stand up for yourself and expect respect from your marriage partner, the change is likely to cause some drama between you two--the dynamic has changed and she likes the dynamic where she has you as finances and service, and him for fun and compliments.
> 
> So I'll ask right out: what is your decision?


At whatever cost I do not want to accept this anymore. The fact that she has flat out lied to me AGAIN on this especially with him is way more than I want to accept. I am tired of the jay cancer in my life with or without her I want him gone


----------



## Bremik

TRy said:


> And you put up with this?


It would appear so.


----------



## Bremik

CynthiaDe said:


> Thank you for explaining how you have worked to get to the point that loans are paid off and the farm is doing better. Also how your entire family is involved and this is a multi-generational project. It puts things into a different light than you simply wanting to do this despite it having no future and not bringing in enough to support you. It explains why you are having such trouble with the idea of divorce.
> 
> So you have two years before things change regarding the farm? I still think you need to look into how divorce would impact you and if you would be able to keep the farm for the family. If you don't know what all your options are, you cannot really make a decision, which will keep you in limbo indefinitely.
> 
> Right now you do know that your wife has been lying to you and putting another man between you. That is a betrayal whether or not she has been sexually involved with him. I think you also realize that the chances of there being no sexual tie is extremely remote. Is there are way you can live with her for two more years knowing this? Do you have a spare bedroom she could move into?


I think we are past the point of her in a spare bedroom. I want jay gone. I plan on talking to a divorce lawyer asap as suggested to begin a plan or at least see options


----------



## Cynthia

bremik said:


> I think we are past the point of her in a spare bedroom. I want jay gone. I plan on talking to a divorce lawyer asap as suggested to begin a plan or at least see options


You clearly have no control over whether Jay is in the picture or not. That isn't your decision to make. 
Unfortunately once you set a boundary and stick to it, you may find your wife moves out immediately and runs to Jay's waiting arms.


----------



## Bremik

CynthiaDe said:


> You clearly have no control over whether Jay is in the picture or not. That isn't your decision to make.
> Unfortunately once you set a boundary and stick to it, you may find your wife moves out immediately and runs to Jay's waiting arms.


I am all ears as to how to do that and be sure it can be monitored. I honestly assumed divorce is my only option otherwise I cycle back into the make a rule she breaks recycle. Jay was supposed to be out of the picture. My wife made such a big deal about telling me she was working on being transparent and that is why she told me she would be contacting him some because of work. To me that was a huge slap in the face to find out she forgot to mention they had already been contacting each other!!!! As far as I knew she had no contact with jay for 2 1/2 years which is when her number would have changed and she started her new job- obviously I had been looking but never found anything- but now I know why. And she has been to WI twice in that time without me which I again monitored the best I could but again I wouldn't be able to find anything if they used a different number and i-message.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

CynthiaDe said:


> You clearly have no control over whether Jay is in the picture or not. That isn't your decision to make.
> Unfortunately once you set a boundary and stick to it, you may find your wife moves out immediately and runs to Jay's waiting arms.


I question how waiting they would be with Jay married as well, could be that this is more fancy than fact... some never leave the past and would never progress to a present more that what the past delivered, never mind a future.


----------



## Cynthia

bremik said:


> I am all ears as to how to do that and be sure it can be monitored. I honestly assumed divorce is my only option otherwise I cycle back into the make a rule she breaks recycle. Jay was supposed to be out of the picture. My wife made such a big deal about telling me she was working on being transparent and that is why she told me she would be contacting him some because of work. To me that was a huge slap in the face to find out she forgot to mention they had already been contacting each other!!!! As far as I knew she had no contact with jay for 2 1/2 years which is when her number would have changed and she started her new job- obviously I had been looking but never found anything- but now I know why. And she has been to WI twice in that time without me which I again monitored the best I could but again I wouldn't be able to find anything if they used a different number and i-message.


I am not implying that you should have control over your wife. That's not possible except under highly abusive situations, which this is not. Normal, healthy people cannot control the lives of other people. You set your boundary and she decides what she's going to do about it. I'm just saying don't be surprised if she leaves you and heads straight for Jay. This is not your fault. There isn't anything that you can do about what she has going on in her head and her heart. Personally, I think people who behave like your wife have a serious moral void of character. The only thing you really know for sure about her is that she does whatever she wants and she uses lies and deception to make it happen. How could you possibly have any control over that? You don't.


----------



## Cynthia

Emerging Buddhist said:


> I question how waiting they would be with Jay married as well, could be that this is more fancy than fact... some never leave the past and would never progress to a present more that what the past delivered, never mind a future.


Who knows. I just presented it as a possibility. My point is that he should not expect a particular outcome when he sets a boundary. There are many possible responses that she might have.


----------



## Bremik

hackermanworld9 said:


> Have you noticed a:*
> 
> 
> - Sudden increase in time away from home*
> 
> - Decreased sexual interest with you*
> 
> - Cheating spouse is often distracted and day dreaming*
> 
> - Cheating husband or wife is often “unavailable” while at work*
> 
> - Cheating spouse attends new functions outside of work or not wants to go alone*
> 
> - Cell phone calls from you are not returned in timely fashion*
> 
> - Cheating spouse leaves house or goes to other rooms to talk on the telephone*
> 
> - Cheating spouse uses computer alone and secretly*
> 
> - Cheating spouse asks about your schedule more often than usual*
> 
> - Mileage on car is high yet he / she reports only short distance errands*
> 
> - Clothes smell of perfume or cologne*
> 
> - Cheating spouse gets his / her laundry done independently*
> 
> - Unexplained payments on bank statements*
> 
> - Cheating spouse has more cash on hand without accountability*
> 
> - Cell phone bills contain calls with long duration*
> 
> - Cheating spouse now has a phone card but never used one before*
> 
> - Cheating wife or husband has unexplained receipts in wallet or purse*
> 
> - Cheating spouse has suspicious phone voice-mail messages*
> 
> - Cheating spouse has suspicious cell phone numbers stored or dialed*
> 
> - Internet web browser history list (this is a record of web sites visited) contains unusual sites*
> 
> - Cheating spouse begins to use new or free e-mail account*
> 
> - Cheating spouse is suddenly deleting e-mail messages*
> 
> contact via mail/Hangout :* [email protected]
> 
> Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk


just erased texts/emails


----------



## Bremik

CynthiaDe said:


> Who knows. I just presented it as a possibility. My point is that he should not expect a particular outcome when he sets a boundary. There are many possible responses that she might have.


What boundary can I set at this point? She had no reason to be in contact with Jay until last week so that in itself crossed a boundary. She is supposed to be transparent in any contact with any male outside of normal work relations- especially jay- that got crossed as well


----------



## lucy999

bremik said:


> What boundary can I set at this point? She had no reason to be in contact with Jay until last week so that in itself crossed a boundary. She is supposed to be transparent in any contact with any male outside of normal work relations- especially jay- that got crossed as well


You say you're past the point of separate bedrooms. I strongly disagree. What consequences has your W suffered? None. Never too late to start. Kick her out of your bed. She's a huge cake eater.


----------



## Cynthia

bremik said:


> What boundary can I set at this point? She had no reason to be in contact with Jay until last week so that in itself crossed a boundary. She is supposed to be transparent in any contact with any male outside of normal work relations- especially jay- that got crossed as well


Refusing to have sex with her or engage with her on a close, personal level when she has betrayed you. No longer trusting anything she says or does, as she has proven herself to be a liar, so basically not engaging in any conversation where you have to rely on her word. Any conversation outside of, "did you pick up the broccoli while you were out," is unnecessary. Moving her out of your bedroom. Etc. Things that people do when they are no longer in a safe relationship. You don't treat someone like a safe, close confidant when they have betrayed you and shown no proof of change over a long period of time.


----------



## Bremik

lucy999 said:


> You say you're past the point of separate bedrooms. I strongly disagree. What consequences has your W suffered? None. Never too late to start. Kick her out of your bed. She's a huge cake eater.


I have done that since Saturday when I found the texts.


----------



## Bremik

CynthiaDe said:


> Refusing to have sex with her or engage with her on a close, personal level when she has betrayed you. No longer trusting anything she says or does, as she has proven herself to be a liar, so basically not engaging in any conversation where you have to rely on her word. Any conversation outside of, "did you pick up the broccoli while you were out," is unnecessary. Moving her out of your bedroom. Etc. Things that people do when they are no longer in a safe relationship. You don't treat someone like a safe, close confidant when they have betrayed you and shown no proof of change over a long period of time.


I have done that too since Saturday. Her face looks like a watermelon she has been crying so much. But now what?! How does she answer for what her and jay have been up to?????????


----------



## BetrayedDad

lucy999 said:


> You say you're past the point of separate bedrooms. I strongly disagree. What consequences has your W suffered? None. Never too late to start. Kick her out of your bed. She's a huge cake eater.





CynthiaDe said:


> Refusing to have sex with her or engage with her on a close, personal level when she has betrayed you. No longer trusting anything she says or does, as she has proven herself to be a liar, so basically not engaging in any conversation where you have to rely on her word. Any conversation outside of, "did you pick up the broccoli while you were out," is unnecessary. Moving her out of your bedroom. Etc. Things that people do when they are no longer in a safe relationship. You don't treat someone like a safe, close confidant when they have betrayed you and shown no proof of change over a long period of time.


Strongly disagree ladies. Kicking her out of bed? The silent treatment? Denying sex? Very immature recommendations imo. OP needs to MAN UP.

You either TRUST your spouse or you don't. Trying to "punish her" with passive aggressive behavior will accomplish NOTHING except make OP look like a pouting child.

It's also an attempt to exert control. If you don't trust your spouse anymore and she is a proven LIAR then it's time to cash out. Walk away with your head held high.


----------



## theDrifter

bremik said:


> I am all ears as to how to do that and be sure it can be monitored. I honestly assumed divorce is my only option otherwise I cycle back into the make a rule she breaks recycle. Jay was supposed to be out of the picture. My wife made such a big deal about telling me she was working on being transparent and that is why she told me she would be contacting him some because of work. To me that was a huge slap in the face to find out she forgot to mention they had already been contacting each other!!!! As far as I knew she had no contact with jay for 2 1/2 years which is when her number would have changed and she started her new job- obviously I had been looking but never found anything- but now I know why. And she has been to WI twice in that time without me which I again monitored the best I could but again I wouldn't be able to find anything if they used a different number and i-message.


She is a serial cheater and the chances of her changing are not very good. Add to that the position of weakness you come from when you try to get her to maintain NC and you have what you have right now. 

If you will not divorce her than just accept things the way they are and live your life. Your hollow sabre-rattling is never going to work because she sees right though you. This problem might be caused by your wife's cheating but it is you who keep it alive with zero action. To be clear, yelling and b!tching at her and making her promise not to contact Jay again and then doing nothing when you find out she broke NC is pretty much zero action. All it means for her is that she has to cool things with Jay until you chill and get back to your normal self. Then she starts up with him again because it's just so damn much fun.


----------



## lucy999

BetrayedDad said:


> Strongly disagree ladies. Kicking her out of bed? The silent treatment? Denying sex? Very immature recommendations imo. OP needs to MAN UP.
> 
> You either TRUST your spouse or you don't. Trying to "punish her" with passive aggressive behavior will accomplish NOTHING except make OP look like a pouting child.
> 
> It's also an attempt to exert control. If you don't trust your spouse anymore and she is a proven LIAR then it's time to cash out. Walk away with your head held high.


But he's not ready to walk away. That is clear. But he wants things to change. So dispensing consequences for her tawdry behavior is a possible solution unless and until he can find the strength to walk away.


----------



## Bremik

lucy999 said:


> But he's not ready to walk away. That is clear. But he wants things to change. So dispensing consequences for her tawdry behavior is a possible solution unless and until he can find the strength to walk away.


No I am still here because I didn't walk away 23 years ago when it started. I thought maybe you guys had something to try. I really do plan on talking to a lawyer if that is my only option. I thought about counseling again but we did that with the counselor specifically saying jay was toxic and here he still is. So it would just be a repeat cycle. Affaircare has made some great points and I argue with none of them. To me Saturday really summed up 22 years of my life with her- jay, lie, deny and turn back on me with lots of tears.

Everybody is right- talk to a lawyer first and see what he says about my financial situation and develop a plan from that.


----------



## Cynthia

bremik said:


> I have done that too since Saturday. Her face looks like a watermelon she has been crying so much. But now what?! How does she answer for what her and jay have been up to?????????


You can't make her answer for any of it. She has to want to. If you are seriously thinking of staying with her, what do you need in order to know you are safe and she is not lying to you? These are things you have to think about and decide. 

Her crying is no big deal. She should be crying. Don't let her convince the kids that you are overreacting to something or being mean to her either. Let them know that she has been lying to you and hiding another man in her life and you are not going to tolerate it. They need to know the truth. Tell both of your families. Contact the other man's wife and let her know as well. Let her cry her eyes out. She's probably crying because things are not going according to plan. The chances that she actually care about you are pretty slim. Has she been asking how you are doing or making any attempt to resolve this? What has she said she will do to fix this? Has she made any attempt to comfort you?



BetrayedDad said:


> Strongly disagree ladies. Kicking her out of bed? The silent treatment? Denying sex? Very immature recommendations imo. OP needs to MAN UP.
> 
> You either TRUST your spouse or you don't. Trying to "punish her" with passive aggressive behavior will accomplish NOTHING except make OP look like a pouting child.
> 
> It's also an attempt to exert control. If you don't trust your spouse anymore and she is a proven LIAR then it's time to cash out. Walk away with your head held high.


This is not passive- aggressive behavior. It is not punishment. It is self protective behavior. You don't sleep with the enemy. You don't bare your soul to someone who is stabbing you in the back. You don't pout. You find focus, make decisions, and act on them. This is detaching from someone who clearly has betrayed you. It is not about control. It is about recognizing that he cannot control anyone except himself. He is currently living with her and needs to have some separation in order to be able to function and move forward.


----------



## Bremik

CynthiaDe there has been no talk since Saturday night about this. Minimal talk at all. I let her kiss me this morning- won't happen again. She looks horrible. You are thinking I disclose to the families now? Or wait a little longer?

Are you saying change is still possible or just saying this for my benefit and really divorce should be the topic?

As far as what I think I need to feel safe I have no idea anymore. If I can't come even close to trusting her what do I have? I can only see the same cycle of promise and deceit coming again. It almost needs to be crazy at this point, almost a begging from her and strictest of strict rules with 0 tolerance- I don't think anyone should have to live that way though but I guess it would be her choice


----------



## stixx

BetrayedDad said:


> Strongly disagree ladies. Kicking her out of bed? The silent treatment? Denying sex? Very immature recommendations imo. OP needs to MAN UP.
> 
> You either TRUST your spouse or you don't. Trying to "punish her" with passive aggressive behavior will accomplish NOTHING except make OP look like a pouting child.
> 
> It's also an attempt to exert control. If you don't trust your spouse anymore and she is a proven LIAR then it's time to cash out. Walk away with your head held high.


^^This. It's not the actions themselves. It's the intent.

If you're doing it to force a confession of sorts, it's the wrong strategy. You might get a little something here or there but never the truth, and the underlying problem will not be any closer to being solved. It CANT be solved. She's a hopeless case. 

If you're doing it as a step towards permanently extricating her from your life, then you're on the right track.


----------



## Cynthia

bremik said:


> CynthiaDe there has been no talk since Saturday night about this. Minimal talk at all. I let her kiss me this morning- won't happen again. She looks horrible. You are thinking I disclose to the families now? Or wait a little longer?
> 
> Are you saying change is still possible or just saying this for my benefit and really divorce should be the topic?
> 
> As far as what I think I need to feel safe I have no idea anymore. If I can't come even close to trusting her what do I have? I can only see the same cycle of promise and deceit coming again. It almost needs to be crazy at this point, almost a begging from her and strictest of strict rules with 0 tolerance- I don't think anyone should have to live that way though but I guess it would be her choice


No one can make this decision for you. What do you think is the best course of action? You don't have to make up your mind right now. You can let things cool down over a couple of weeks or a couple of months and decide under calmer circumstances. I will say, however, that she is not a trustworthy woman. She would have to have a major heart change in order to be trustworthy. Even then, how would you know?

Yes, it think the family needs to know what is going on.


----------



## Cynthia

stixx said:


> ^^This. It's not the actions themselves. It's the intent.
> 
> If you're doing it to force a confession of sorts, it's the wrong strategy. You might get a little something here or there but never the truth, and the underlying problem will not be any closer to being solved. It CANT be solved. She's a hopeless case.
> 
> If you're doing it as a step towards permanently extricating her from your life, then you're on the right track.


Right. It's not a matter of trying to control her. It's an effort to make space and be able to decide what comes next without being all tangled up with her. It's for @bremik to extricate himself from the web of her lies and manipulations so he can think.


----------



## Bremik

CynthiaDe said:


> No one can make this decision for you. What do you think is the best course of action? You don't have to make up your mind right now. You can let things cool down over a couple of weeks or a couple of months and decide under calmer circumstances. I will say, however, that she is not a trustworthy woman. She would have to have a major heart change in order to be trustworthy. Even then, how would you know?
> 
> Yes, it think the family needs to know what is going on.


The longer I wait the more likely she is to get to me based on history. I am not trying to be - can't come up with a word!- anyway, my major weakness with her is I am strongly attracted to her and the longer I go without sex the stronger she gets. It probably is childish but it's true. 3-4 days has been my top length and I am at 4 today. It will be the test of how angry I am on this i guess. I know sex at this point would weaken/undermine everything. 

That said, this is possibly the first time ever that she caught me off guard so badly, lied about it initially by not revealing everything, got caught in the lie immediately and then- thanks to comments here- I totally watched how it got turned back on me- All in 1 day!!! I have been hurt before, scared or whatever but this really ticked me off because I REALLY don't like jay and this sure seems like she has made a choice to me


----------



## Bibi1031

You out her shenanigans yesterday! You are already a day late and a dollar short, well 23 years late to expose her affair instead you enabled her by keeping it a secret and all that did was that she took it further underground. 

Exposing it to friends and family will hold her accountable for the damage she has done to the marriage. She is the one that needs to let the kids know in front of you. she needs to let your parents and hers know too. 

She needs to draw up a letter to Jay where she tells him that things are over between them. She needs to let Jay's wife know that her husband has been her AP for all these years. No excuses on any of these conditions. Jay's wife needs to expose Jay for his **** too.

That is a start and something you should have done long ago. Stop thinking her crying means anything. It doesn't!

Oh, and for crying out loud, man up dude! You are more than hormones. Sex is not an excuse for you to lose your spine. Get your back bone back by using your own hands to fend for yourself instead of allowing this woman to con you with that excuse. She is giving it up to Jay every chance they get. Do you like sloppy seconds? I honestly don't think so. Stop having sex with her! You need to get tested for STDs.


----------



## Bremik

Bibi1031 said:


> You out her shenanigans yesterday! You are already a day late and a dollar short, well 23 years late to expose her affair instead you enabled her by keeping it a secret and all that did was that she took it further underground.
> 
> Exposing it to friends and family will hold her accountable for the damage she has done to the marriage. She is the one that needs to let the kids know in front of you. she needs to let your parents and hers know too.
> 
> She needs to draw up a letter to Jay where she tells him that things are over between them. She needs to let Jay's wife know that her husband has been her AP for all these years. No excuses on any of these conditions. Jay's wife needs to expose Jay for his **** too.
> 
> That is a start and something you should have done long ago. Stop thinking her crying means anything. It doesn't!


This is good. It also makes her admit to being responsible which she hasn't to this point. I feel she keeps acting like the victim plus if divorce does continue forward at least her family knows and I don't get immediately blamed for what is going on


----------



## Cynthia

bremik said:


> This is good. It also makes her admit to being responsible which she hasn't to this point. I feel she keeps acting like the victim plus if divorce does continue forward at least her family knows and I don't get immediately blamed for what is going on


This right here shows that she is not remorseful at all. She is blame shifting. Put a stop to that. Her tears having nothing to do with her concern for you. She is only concerned for herself. The sooner you can recognize that, the better off you will be, even though it hurts terribly. It may also help you lose your attraction for the lying, cheating woman that you have put your heart and soul into.


----------



## Bibi1031

bremik said:


> This is good. It also makes her admit to being responsible which she hasn't to this point. I feel she keeps acting like the victim plus if divorce does continue forward at least her family knows and I don't get immediately blamed for what is going on


Go back and read what I added to the post you just quoted. Sex is off the table period! She needs to comply with your demands or she is out the door and you expose to all yourself. 

We will help you get your backbone back and hopefully if that is what you want, your marriage without a third party in the mix. No guarantees though, but at least you will feel like a man again and not a cuckold.


----------



## Bremik

Bibi1031 said:


> Go back and read what I added to the post you just quoted. Sex is off the table period! She needs to comply with your demands or she is out the door and you expose to all yourself.
> 
> We will help you get your backbone back and hopefully if that is what you want, your marriage without a third party in the mix. No guarantees though, but at least you will feel like a man again and not a cuckold.


That was a good 2x4 thanks! I really like this! If she wants to stay married she will write/text/email her family, jay, his wife separately or I file for divorce and give an explanation going back to college of why there is an issue with specific events mentioned of my choice. I would like to leave the kids out of it at this point and see what happens with the other- anyone have an issue with that?

As stupid as it sounds if she won't do it then she has chosen the divorce not me- that helps me immensely and removes all guilt. I am not making her do some degrading act or thing to fix this - I am making her accept responsibility with witnesses and she has NEVER done that


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> she has been to WI twice in that time without me which I again monitored the best I could but again I wouldn't be able to find anything if they used a different number and i-message.


Since you said previously that "He was the one that everytime we went to WI to a dairy event would get her to go off with him and pals when she was supposed to meet up with me", what difference would it have made had you been there? If she dumped you at night to party with him "everytime" when you were in WI, she would certainly dump your rules and party with him "everytime" that you were not there.


----------



## eric1

bremik said:


> I have done that too since Saturday. Her face looks like a watermelon she has been crying so much. But now what?! How does she answer for what her and jay have been up to?????????




Start with having her write a complete and exact timeline of the relationship. Down to what color shirt she was wearing last time she saw him.

Then you poly on it


----------



## JohnA

I think @Bibi1031 and @eric1 are correct, just wrong order.

She does these things without being told between after you tell here you are seeing a lawyer and will file. If she does actually do them, then discuss here. Maintain 180 afterwards !

Look, none of these points have not been raised repeatedly in the past. 

If I am Jay, I am telling he they are to important to each other to let go of each other. That it is just a yet another nasty down cycle and to just ride it out. That I am sorry she is married to such a loser, but things will work. That this is just more nonsense on your part and after 23 years you know he just eventually gives up.


----------



## introvert

Peeps, forgive me. I am not willing to read back twelve pages. Is there evidence of an actual affair? Please enlighten me, and I apologize in advance.


----------



## Marc878

bremik said:


> just erased texts/emails


did you keep a copy?


----------



## Marc878

bremik said:


> That was a good 2x4 thanks! I really like this! If she wants to stay married she will write/text/email her family, jay, his wife separately or I file for divorce and give an explanation going back to college of why there is an issue with specific events mentioned of my choice. I would like to leave the kids out of it at this point and see what happens with the other- anyone have an issue with that?
> 
> As stupid as it sounds if she won't do it then she has chosen the divorce not me- that helps me immensely and removes all guilt. I am not making her do some degrading act or thing to fix this - I am making her accept responsibility with witnesses and she has NEVER done that


Why would you keep your kids in the dark or lie to them? They are old enough to know why their world is changing. Kids sometimes blame themselves. Don't let this happen.

You should be the one doing exposure. Your actions say you aren't strong enough to handle this and you're going to try and make her do it because you can't? Your passivity is probably why you are where you are.

Maybe it's time you get strong and make your life what you want it to be. Quit letting your weakness and inaction define you.


----------



## Marc878

bremik said:


> No never have and she has consistently and strongly denied it the whole time


Well it's not as if she's ever lied to you before has she?

Get out of your denial. It binds and paralises you.


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> This is the guy that she -even though he had male roommates- had spent the night supposedly on his couch because she was too drunk to get home and neither she nor he called to tell me. He was the one always partying with her. He was the one she confided to in college when we had arguments about her staying out late to where he would tell her to ignore me and I had no right. He was the one that everytime we went to WI to a dairy event would get her to go off with him and pals when she was supposed to meet up with me after we had been apart for the day. He was the one who left the- what he thought was a funny- message at 2 am that she should get it on with another co-worker and how lucky that guy was. He was the one that she sat next to on the company trips while wearing what I would have considered one of her sexiest outfits. He was the one that came down on business and when we went out to eat in separate vehicles he asked her if she wanted to ride with him - I was the other driver! Maybe you get the idea by now?





bremik said:


> I REALLY don't like jay and this sure seems like she has made a choice to me


 Of course you do not like Jay. Their entire relationship, as summed up by you above, is base on him getting an ego boost by getting your wife to pick him over you every chance that he gets, and she does; with your wife willingly playing along as she gets off disrespecting you with Jay's encouragement. She parties with him, gets drunk, and sleeps at his house, and not only do they expect you to swallow this, but they do not even think that they owe you as her husband a call? She stands you up after a WI conference to go to dinner with and to party with Jay, with you not even being invited, and with them both knowing that you would be eating dinner alone, not just once, but everytime that you go? What spouse does this to their spouse? I can almost see them laughing at you as she goes off with him. When driving to the same place she drives with him instead of you as if they were the couple? He taunts you by leaving a late night message that your wife "should get it on with another co-worker"? He encourages her to stay out late with him and tells her to just ignore your concerns? Openly treating you as a doormat that can be ignored is at the foundation of their relationship. Wow what an ego boost for him. After a divorce, I bet that with you out of the picture to humiliate, she would not be nearly as fun to be with for him. 

Most healthy marriages have a boundary that you can only have an opposite sex friend (OSF) if that OSF is a friend of the marriage. Jay in not a friend of the marriage, but is actually an enemy of both the marriage and of you personally. From my point of view, based on my marriage vows, anyone that is my wife's enemy is my enemy too, and I expect the same from my wife. She is not just picking Jay over you now, as she has always picked him over you. Never mind that you are married, for your wife it is not even a close call when it comes to Jay over your, as he always win the girl, and you always lose. As far as Jay and your wife are concerned, when she is with him, she is not married.


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## introvert

introvert said:


> Peeps, forgive me. I am not willing to read back twelve pages. Is there evidence of an actual affair? Please enlighten me, and I apologize in advance.


I'm guessing there's not actual evidence. Too bad. At first, I thought there was hardcore proof. Now, not at all.


----------



## Marc878

introvert said:


> I'm guessing there's not actual evidence. Too bad. At first, I thought there was hardcore proof. Now, not at all.


Well if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck. It's not a zebra


----------



## Evinrude58

introvert said:


> I'm guessing there's not actual evidence. Too bad. At first, I thought there was hardcore proof. Now, not at all.


OP has AlLOWED his wife to date another man and actually spend the night with him on. Unerius occasions. Jay has had two wives for many years.

I don't really care if she is ha omg sex with the guy or not--- if she is spending the night with him, I equate that with sex, whether or not she did is immaterial. The fact is that she was with another man all night and not her husband. I don't know how OP can let this happen. It's just mind boggling.

Jay should have been sent packing bf a long time ago. But who will be next to fill his shoes? I as long as this has gone on, I am surprised bremik's wife even puts up a teary-eyed act. Geez, she's had thus boyfriend for 23 years.....

Bremik. Why have you not physically confronted this guy, or at the very least plainly told your wife --- it's him or me. If you're going out for the night with him, make sure you know it's going through be more than just a night---- it's permanent.

Jay is married. He's not taking your wife on full time. He should have gotten the opportunity to ha e her full time a long time ago. I'd bet that he doesn't even want her full time. He probably respects her just about as little as he respects bremik. She's just a little fun on the side for him.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bremik said:


> I think we are past the point of her in a spare bedroom. I want jay gone. I plan on talking to a divorce lawyer asap as suggested to begin a plan or at least see options


You misspelled KNOW, it isn't spelled T-H-I-N-K. So, sex didn't work and now the TEARS. Let me know when the, " but what about the family" scenarios come up.

You did what you could and the guy is still in your life. You looked at your side of the street, fixed what you could, your counselor told BOTH OF YOU this guy was toxic and look where you are now. It is the same guy. Some of the advice given I might agree with if this was a NEW AFFAIR. It is only NEW TO YOU because you believed it was over. This is an affair which possibly NEVER ended. You realize she hid all of this from you while you were in counseling. Nope, she was lying in counseling because SHE KNEW she couldn't stop contact with this guy. 

Oops, sorry, my bad. I'm giving her an out. She DIDN'T want to end contact with this guy which is a RATIONAL CHOICE. 

22 years ending sucks, but it could have been 14, but you made a choice. You KNOW better now and making the same mistake again, IMO, would be pure ignorance on your part.


----------



## TRy

introvert said:


> Peeps, forgive me. I am not willing to read back twelve pages. Is there evidence of an actual affair? Please enlighten me, and I apologize in advance.





introvert said:


> I'm guessing there's not actual evidence. Too bad. At first, I thought there was hardcore proof. Now, not at all.


 She went out with the other man (OM), got drunk, and spent the night at the OM's house while dropping all communication with the husband. She has on multiple occasions stood her husband up for dinner at out of town conferences so that she could go to dinner and party all night with the OM. In recent years she has gone to multiple of these same out of town conferences that the OM regularly goes to without her husband. To get around the OP, the OM has a new cell number hidden on the wife's phone under a different name so that the OP would not know that it was the OM. She deletes her text messages with the OM, and exchanges text in a way that will not show up on the phone bill. The OM has the wife's new cell number which was changed so that the OM would not have it. That should be enough to know for sure that something is going on between the wife and the OM. At the very least, the OP's wife has been in a long term emotional affair (EA) with the other man. 

A major study on cheating showed that the majority of cheating goes completely undetected where spouses being cheat on never even suspects that their spouse is cheating. That in only 3% of the cases of cheating, does the spouse every catch their cheating spouses in the act. That even with some evidence of cheating, only 7% of the time will the cheaters admit to cheating, and this includes the 3% caught in the act. Thus what the OP's knows is more that most will ever know, and waiting to get enough evidence to force the cheater to admit the cheating is often a fools errand.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

introvert said:


> I'm guessing there's not actual evidence. Too bad. At first, I thought there was hardcore proof. Now, not at all.


Simply put, there is no reason for her to be in contact with a person who your mutual counselor says is toxic to the marriage. Then promptly LIE about the contact when asked.


----------



## TRy

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You KNOW better now and making the same mistake again, IMO, would be pure ignorance on your part.


 "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein.


----------



## Evinrude58

She is undoubtedly a cheater.

He has undoubtedly been sticking his head in the sand. The only question is how long he pays attention this time, and if he's truly had enough.

It's clear that his wife is addicted to this other man. She doesnt want the break the addiction. She's enjoyed her cocaine for the last 23 years. Why stop now?

OP, if you have any hope of breaking your wife away from this, it's going t involve paperwork and exposure. 

I still don't know if you can break her off this guy for good. He's rooted in her more than you are.

As said, she's chosen him over you repeatedly. Guess what? It IS in your power to choose as well.

She will not believe you are choosing the end your relationship with her over this unless you show her something you've never done. 
I think you should have her served and ask her to leave the home. But I don't think you should if you can't stick with it. I don't think you can. Exposure won't likely. E enough, but I would do it. For sure. That I think you might be capable of. This is a battle of wills. Do you want your wife to yourself more than she wants to keep her boyfriend? Gotta make up your mind. It's clear you aren't happy about sharing her.
Get freaking happy! Don't do it.

I think letting him have her would make him run for the hills!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MAJDEATH said:


> And I also would consider reaching out to Jay and saying something between these 2 extremes:
> 1 we are trying to work on our marriage and your involvement is not welcome, so please stop all contact with my W
> 2 if you make contact my W again, in any form, I will find you and beat your head in with a baseball bat.


See, this is one I would agree with if I was reading your post back in 2009. It is eight years later and anything you say, short of exposing this to his wife with no proof, is going to be a prank in his eyes. You chose to not fully investigate. Deep down, you are scared. You should have remained quiet, but you could not. In this way, you can cling onto the small hope it never went physical. You are a prime example of why I agree with going all in on checking and if possible hiring a good PI. Yes, if nothing happened it could cause a divorce, but in many of these threads with your level of poor behavior the marriage is already severely damaged. 

Honestly, I'd make her text him in front of me and ask him what his favorite time/memory was with her. You've got nothing to lose now except more respect in her eyes, which shouldn't matter to you.


----------



## farsidejunky

bremik said:


> That was a good 2x4 thanks! I really like this! If she wants to stay married she will write/text/email her family, jay, his wife separately or I file for divorce and give an explanation going back to college of why there is an issue with specific events mentioned of my choice. I would like to leave the kids out of it at this point and see what happens with the other- anyone have an issue with that?
> 
> As stupid as it sounds if she won't do it then she has chosen the divorce not me- that helps me immensely and removes all guilt. I am not making her do some degrading act or thing to fix this - I am making her accept responsibility with witnesses and she has NEVER done that


You had better mean it, and actually be willing to follow through.

Never...Ever...Ever play brinkmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

farsidejunky said:


> You had better mean it, and actually be willing to follow through.
> 
> Never...Ever...Ever play brinkmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink.


LOL. Like Gus' did you "DNA the kids" I almost stole your line. I decided not because I knew it was coming.


----------



## Bremik

Affaircare said:


> You're welcome, @bremik, but I notice you didn't answer the question I asked you. Here, let me say it again, shorter:
> 
> _For you, I think the most profitable thing you can do for yourself right now is just get this through your head: FACE THE TRUTH. Your wife has already been unfaithful to you for eight years.
> 
> If you do not intend to do anything about it, that is your choice: I'd say just admit to yourself out loud that you are choosing to let your wife be unfaithful.
> 
> On the other hand, if you do not intend to continue to allow adultery in your marriage, then that would mean that you will need to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT...and that means that even though it hurts, you will have to live without her income and face possibly losing the farm.
> 
> So  @bremik figure that out first. FACE THE TRUTH. *You tell us if you are going to choose to do nothing and accept it...or you are going to do something. *If you are going to do nothing, I can't say everyone will agree with you, but at least you'd be honest with yourself and with us! But if you are going to do something, why then we'll talk again.
> 
> Let me know._
> 
> I highlighted a couple spots to make it easier to see.
> 
> Here's the thing: it sounds to me like you love your life (in a way). You love your farm and you love your kids and how they help you with the farm, and financially you work and she works and by pooling everything even the farm is pulling ahead pretty well (by the way, I am very impressed you managed to make 10% in the first couple years--that is AMAZING!). The only thing that is a stick in the mud (if you will) is that your wife has an AP on the side. You believe he's primarily an emotional affair, but still he's there and has been there the whole marriage, and she has gone to huge lengths to hide him from you this whole time.
> 
> I think the time has come to just *decide *if you're going to accept the AP on the side in exchange for keeping the farm and kids--or if you're unwilling to accept an AP in your marriage but risk the farm and kids. I'm not being mean--just pick one and know that you made the choice!
> 
> If you choose to accept the AP in exchange for keeping the farm and the kids, then we can talk to you about how to accept something you find a "bitter pill" or something that is hard. I honestly doubt you'll ever be very happy IN YOUR MARRIAGE because you'd prefer to control her and "make her stop" and she's not going to stop (no matter what promises she makes). Can you accept that and find happiness in other areas of your life?
> 
> If you choose to NOT accept infidelity in your marriage relationship, then we can talk to you about how to focus on taking one step at a time, and controlling YOU (not her), and setting a boundary AROUND YOU that says you'll only accept 100% faithful partner and here's what that looks like... I am not sure you'll be happy IN YOUR LIFE for a while if you make this choice, because for a while, as you learn to stand up for yourself and expect respect from your marriage partner, the change is likely to cause some drama between you two--the dynamic has changed and she likes the dynamic where she has you as finances and service, and him for fun and compliments.
> 
> So I'll ask right out: what is your decision?



I was hoping you would check in one more time ?


----------



## BetrayedDad

stixx said:


> ^^This. It's not the actions themselves. It's the intent.
> 
> If you're doing it to force a confession of sorts, it's the wrong strategy. You might get a little something here or there but never the truth, and the underlying problem will not be any closer to being solved. It CANT be solved. She's a hopeless case.
> 
> If you're doing it as a step towards permanently extricating her from your life, then you're on the right track.


BINGO

Lucy and Cynthia are essentially recommending the 180. Which should only be utilized as a permanent detachment solution.


----------



## BetrayedDad

bremik said:


> As stupid as it sounds if she won't do it then she has chosen the divorce not me- that helps me immensely and removes all guilt.


You have GOT to get out of this mentality. That's your problem. You're a "nice guy" so you "feel bad". TRY TO BE OBJECTIVE.

Your wife is CHEATING ON YOU and LYING TO YOUR FACE. Emotionally at minimum. At worst she's bangs him like a rabbit.

And she has NO REMORSE about it, sleeps at his house like a baby. So if she doesn't feel guilty THEN WHY THE HELL SHOULD YOU?!?

Never feel bad about OTHER people's behavior. You CAN'T CONTROL other people's behavior. SHE'S the CHEAT. YOU are the VICTIM. 

Never feel guilty about dispensing JUSTICE. Her ACTIONS BEG for a divorce. Give her EXACTLY what she has earned. Nothing more.


----------



## Bremik

BetrayedDad said:


> You have GOT to get out of this mentality. That's your problem. You're a "nice guy" so you "feel bad". TRY TO BE OBJECTIVE.
> 
> Your wife is CHEATING ON YOU and LYING TO YOUR FACE. Emotionally at minimum. At worst she's bangs him like a rabbit.
> 
> And she has NO REMORSE about it, sleeps at his house like a baby. So if she doesn't feel guilty THEN WHY THE HELL SHOULD YOU?!?
> 
> Never feel bad about OTHER people's behavior. You CAN'T CONTROL other people's behavior. SHE'S the CHEAT. YOU are the VICTIM.
> 
> Never feel guilty about dispensing JUSTICE. Her ACTIONS BEG for a divorce. Give her EXACTLY what she has earned. Nothing more.


I swear I am trying to work on it. The sad reality is if I have let it go this long then it is easy to see why it is so hard to change my thought process. BUT it has been scary to see her responses thus far- almost like reading a text book. She has really turned up the tears and affection but still no conversation- again easy to see for myself how my head gets so screwed up. As hard as it is I am trying to stay focused on meeting with an attorney like everyone has said there is nothing to lose in talking to one and I am still moving forward. I think if I can get through this week I mentally will improve to at least a better focus on the job at hand. 

I am looking at this as an addiction and right now is the withdrawal so I am hoping I can get through this part


----------



## Tatsuhiko

As I said in an earlier post, all she knows is manipulation. You've told her you want the details and she won't give you any. She's not interested in meeting your needs or resolving this. She knows if she turns up the tears ando offers sex, that you'll eventually relent, and things will go back to status quo.


----------



## Malaise

Tatsuhiko said:


> As I said in an earlier post, all she knows is manipulation. You've told her you want the details and she won't give you any. She's not interested in meeting your needs or resolving this. She knows if she turns up the tears ando offers sex, that you'll eventually relent, and things will go back to status quo.


Bingo

She doesn't want to resolve this and lose Jay. He means too much to her.


----------



## BetrayedDad

bremik said:


> She has really turned up the tears and affection but still no conversation- again easy to see for myself how my head gets so screwed up.


And you do understand why, don't you? You REALLY need to comprehend this because she manipulates you.

IT'S BECAUSE SHE IS SORRY SHE GOT CAUGHT, *NOT* BECAUSE SHE IS SORRY SHE CHEATED.

Those crocodile tears are NOT FOR YOU. They are selfish tears because now her life has "gotten difficult."


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> I was hoping you would check in one more time ?


Affaircare started out the post to you stating "I notice you didn't answer the question I asked you". Affaircare went on to ask the question again. You saying in response that "I was hoping you would check in one more time", is you again not answering the question.

Let me reask Affaircare's question. "You tell us if you are going to choose to do nothing and accept it...or you are going to do something. If you are going to do nothing, I can't say everyone will agree with you, but at least you'd be honest with yourself and with us! But if you are going to do something, why then we'll talk again. 

Let me know."

Please directly answer Affaircare's question. The time to answer this question is years overdue.


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> This is the guy that she -even though he had male roommates- had spent the night supposedly on his couch because she was too drunk to get home and neither she nor he called to tell me. He was the one always partying with her. He was the one she confided to in college when we had arguments about her staying out late to where he would tell her to ignore me and I had no right. He was the one that everytime we went to WI to a dairy event would get her to go off with him and pals when she was supposed to meet up with me after we had been apart for the day. He was the one who left the- what he thought was a funny- message at 2 am that she should get it on with another co-worker and how lucky that guy was. He was the one that she sat next to on the company trips while wearing what I would have considered one of her sexiest outfits. He was the one that came down on business and when we went out to eat in separate vehicles he asked her if she wanted to ride with him - I was the other driver! Maybe you get the idea by now?


@OP: In looking at your quote above something jumped out at me. For the entirety of your marriage you have not been your wife's priority, Jay has. She has shown this to be true time and again. This is important to note because most divorces are due to reasons other than their spouse having sex with someone else outside of the marriage. At its root, often divorces are due to one of the spouses not feeling like they are the priority to their spouse. For example, if the spouse is workaholic, then the divorce is due to work being the priority of the spouse. Another example would be if the spouse is an alcoholic or drug addict, then the divorce is due to alcohol or other drugs being the priority of the spouse. Other examples would be if the spouse makes online gaming, friends, a non-physical emotional affair partner, or a hobby their priority. In your case your wife has been addicted to Jay your entire marriage, and push comes to shove, she has always made it clear to you and Jay that Jay is the priority. She is so open about it that both you and Jay expect it of her. 

I say this because, you do not need to prove that she had sex with Jay (although she clearly has) in order to have a valid reason to divorce her. In consistently making Jay her priority over you, she has broken the most basic commitment of your marriage which is to make you her priority in life. This is an undeniable fact that needs no more discovery.


----------



## stixx

BetrayedDad said:


> And you do understand why, don't you? You REALLY need to comprehend this because she manipulates you.
> 
> IT'S BECAUSE SHE IS SORRY SHE GOT CAUGHT, *NOT* BECAUSE SHE IS SORRY SHE CHEATED.
> 
> Those crocodile tears are NOT FOR YOU. They are selfish tears because now her life has "gotten difficult."


And because he's starting to show some resistance.

Not much, but some. 

She wasn't expecting it, given the history.


----------



## theDrifter

bremik said:


> That was a good 2x4 thanks! I really like this! If she wants to stay married she will write/text/email her family, jay, his wife separately or I file for divorce and give an explanation going back to college of why there is an issue with specific events mentioned of my choice. I would like to leave the kids out of it at this point and see what happens with the other- anyone have an issue with that?
> 
> _*As stupid as it sounds if she won't do it then she has chosen the divorce not me- that helps me immensely and removes all guilt. I am not making her do some degrading act or thing to fix this - I am making her accept responsibility with witnesses and she has NEVER done that*_


I'm not sure you understand just how stupid & pathetic this sounds. This is what's going to happen: you will ask her to write these letters and she will say "ok" then maybe write a couple but never send them. Then she will give you a blowjob and you will forget about all this fuss and ride the same old merry-go-round again. 

You aren't going to do anything meaningful about her relationship with Jay. Ever.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
Perhaps your freedom lies in accepting your situation. I feel that your desire to leave a legacy for your children is admirable. You are willing to sacrifice even your own marriage. So then why not pull your head from the sand and look at this as a business venture with the ultimate payoff of leaving your children a farm and a legacy. There are some established facts that cannot be disregarded. Your W, and I use the term in its legal context only, has proven that she has no intention of removing the OM(s) from your life. She has repeatedly shown that her concern is for herself and not you/the marriage/the family. These are matters of undeniable fact.

Is it not prudent to see this for what it is? You need her finances to keep the farm going, you need her genitals to provide you with......I sincerely do not know what word to use....is it satisfaction? or superficial pleasure? I do not know. It is not intimacy in the true sense as she is not there for you and you alone so it is what exactly? It does not bother you significantly to know that she may very well have been with another as evidenced by the fact that you cannot go more than 4 days without her "favors", and I used the word favors purposefully.

So then, if you can be satisfied with favors from her every 2-3 or 4 days, can accept her financial contributions as necessary to accomplish your goals, can accept the way she disregards her own children in favor of OM(s), then why not accept the OM and use her as a means to an end, as she seems to be doing to you. This is not meant to be facetious. The only difference between what has been and this new path forward would be your open acceptance as opposed to your declared intolerance, which she defies regularly. 

Why do you not simply tell her that this life is unacceptable and that you have a solution that would allow you to keep the farm and your dream of passing it to your children and has the added benefit of removing the horrible angst from your soul that has plagued you for the last 20+ years. Simply tell her that you know about her OM(s) and that you will tolerate it under a set of circumstances, to be determined, for the sake of your dream. You can explain to her that the dream of a W who you deeply care for and who deeply cares for you is now dead with her but that the dream of the farm can still live on.

Simply tell her that you accept that she cannot be the W that you need and that she has now taken on the role of financier and harlot. You will take her money and her "favors", WITH PROTECTION, in exchange for keeping the faux marriage image up until such time as you can buy her out and move on from this nightmare. She must not be overt and must use discretion and, when it becomes necessary, SHE must explain to the children what has put the marriage in this place.

Pragmatically, I can see no other course forward that allows you to fulfill at least one of your dreams. The sad truth is that she is a lost cause anyway, at least with this plan you are not continually expecting her to be honorable and being consistently disappointed. Use her for what you need and when the opportunity arises that you no longer need her assistance then cut her loose and find a woman to live out your days with who truly cares for you.


----------



## Bremik

TRy said:


> @OP: In looking at your quote above something jumped out at me. For the entirety of your marriage you have not been your wife's priority, Jay has. She has shown this to be true time and again. This is important to note because most divorces are due to reasons other than their spouse having sex with someone else outside of the marriage. At its root, often divorces are due to one of the spouses not feeling like they are the priority to their spouse. For example, if the spouse is workaholic, then the divorce is due to work being the priority of the spouse. Another example would be if the spouse is an alcoholic or drug addict, then the divorce is due to alcohol or other drugs being the priority of the spouse. Other examples would be if the spouse makes online gaming, friends, a non-physical emotional affair partner, or a hobby their priority. In your case your wife has been addicted to Jay your entire marriage, and push comes to shove, she has always made it clear to you and Jay that Jay is the priority. She is so open about it that both you and Jay expect it of her.
> 
> I say this because, you do not need to prove that she had sex with Jay (although she clearly has) in order to have a valid reason to divorce her. In consistently making Jay her priority over you, she has broken the most basic commitment of your marriage which is to make you her priority in life. This is an undeniable fact that needs no more discovery.


A very good point and I agree!


----------



## Bremik

TRy said:


> Affaircare started out the post to you stating "I notice you didn't answer the question I asked you". Affaircare went on to ask the question again. You saying in response that "I was hoping you would check in one more time", is you again not answering the question.
> 
> Let me reask Affaircare's question. "You tell us if you are going to choose to do nothing and accept it...or you are going to do something. If you are going to do nothing, I can't say everyone will agree with you, but at least you'd be honest with yourself and with us! But if you are going to do something, why then we'll talk again.
> 
> Let me know."
> 
> Please directly answer Affaircare's question. The time to answer this question is years overdue.




I did answer this on post #143- I have no idea how to transfer this here sorry! I really appreciate your direct input.


----------



## Evinrude58

Bremik,
You do realize that she is NEVER going to stop seeing this guy, right?


----------



## Bremik

I can't guarantee what will happen but I can guarantee that for whatever reason finding out jay is around again and most likely never left has really left me angry. I think the biggest reason is because in the last year my wife and I have had numerous talks about our situation with me having to keep drawing new lines not to cross or commenting on her actions don't match her words, or I keep bringing up how long this is going on.

I have to write things out as part of my analyzing for whatever reason. At one point I figured out that not counting our yearly trips to WI where jay caused trouble at some point but looking at various troubles with boundaries and guys over half of our marriage time has been directly dealing with these issues- it didn't really surprise me but seeing it on paper made it stick out more. Also, I have noticed my wife talking down to me at times which really ticked me off. Little things like not sticking to milking protocols in the parlor because she didn't think it was necessary or coming in half way through milking and changing things around to how she wanted it. Not major stuff but considering I do most of the milking and I keep track of every change I make to know if it was a benefit or not, I just didn't think she had a right to jump in and take over. She basically ignores my requests on how to handle money and seems to be getting worse.

When I wrote my bleeding heart letter to her I referenced how I felt jay was the core of the problems and we needed to get that figured out. I have told her many times over the last year or so that I hadn't seen anything from jay and she has told me more than once that she hasn't heard from him so for whatever reason I had comfort in that and besides I still had her current coworker on the plate. This past week just brought everything to head. She was making a big point of telling me she would have to talk to jay some and just wanted me to know she was being transparent. So in the last year - at a MINIMUM- she had multiple times to reveal she and jay were still in communication and she didn't. She had a chance this week say it since the topic was specifically about him and didn't. To make it worse, when I told her that I knew she had been talking to jay since at least early last year she denied it! Then when I stood my ground and told her she was lying she insisted she wasn't, denied it again, belittled me some and then turned it around on me that I have been mean to her the last 6 months! All this just from me bringing up that I knew she had been talking to jay.

I do consider my wife to be very pretty and I do have fun being with her a lot but I have lost all trust in her when she is away. I always am second guessing why money was spent on things that I didn't know about, always having a knot in my stomach when I know she is at meetings with adam, or going to Wisconsin when she has gone, always feeling the need to check up on her or verify things she says etc. I KNOW I gave her excuses for such a long time and I am sure my attraction to her was the cause. For all of the last year I have been telling her I am tired of this and don't want to do it anymore and I think this past week with jay finally helped it sink in for me. I was actually able to finally SEE the calculation and pattern in what she did and how she did it coupled with the cold slap of realizing jay has been in the picture and most likely never was out and all the implications with that information.

There has been GREAT input and 2x4 posts on here that are further pushing me along and I feel like I am at the top of the hill ready to roll the other way that isn't back to my wife and I think if I can stay focused and make it a few more days that will get me rolling the right way. I am planning on speaking with a lawyer and am actively looking for one now just to keep me moving forward. I think my wife will respond negatively to all this if I keep moving because I have never been able to hold out even this long and that will only encourage me more. It may not be the speed most on here want but I live day in and out in a business that you just have to pull your hat down and stay the course no matter how bad it is and keep moving. The lawyer is my next focus and that is where I am headed- never done that before either. So I really appreciate everyone's input and whether it looks like it or not it is helping push me forward and I don't want to continue this way anymore with my wife. This past week has made it crystal clear who she can't live without


----------



## Bremik

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> Perhaps your freedom lies in accepting your situation. I feel that your desire to leave a legacy for your children is admirable. You are willing to sacrifice even your own marriage. So then why not pull your head from the sand and look at this as a business venture with the ultimate payoff of leaving your children a farm and a legacy. There are some established facts that cannot be disregarded. Your W, and I use the term in its legal context only, has proven that she has no intention of removing the OM(s) from your life. She has repeatedly shown that her concern is for herself and not you/the marriage/the family. These are matters of undeniable fact.
> 
> Is it not prudent to see this for what it is? You need her finances to keep the farm going, you need her genitals to provide you with......I sincerely do not know what word to use....is it satisfaction? or superficial pleasure? I do not know. It is not intimacy in the true sense as she is not there for you and you alone so it is what exactly? It does not bother you significantly to know that she may very well have been with another as evidenced by the fact that you cannot go more than 4 days without her "favors", and I used the word favors purposefully.
> 
> So then, if you can be satisfied with favors from her every 2-3 or 4 days, can accept her financial contributions as necessary to accomplish your goals, can accept the way she disregards her own children in favor of OM(s), then why not accept the OM and use her as a means to an end, as she seems to be doing to you. This is not meant to be facetious. The only difference between what has been and this new path forward would be your open acceptance as opposed to your declared intolerance, which she defies regularly.
> 
> Why do you not simply tell her that this life is unacceptable and that you have a solution that would allow you to keep the farm and your dream of passing it to your children and has the added benefit of removing the horrible angst from your soul that has plagued you for the last 20+ years. Simply tell her that you know about her OM(s) and that you will tolerate it under a set of circumstances, to be determined, for the sake of your dream. You can explain to her that the dream of a W who you deeply care for and who deeply cares for you is now dead with her but that the dream of the farm can still live on.
> 
> Simply tell her that you accept that she cannot be the W that you need and that she has now taken on the role of financier and harlot. You will take her money and her "favors", WITH PROTECTION, in exchange for keeping the faux marriage image up until such time as you can buy her out and move on from this nightmare. She must not be overt and must use discretion and, when it becomes necessary, SHE must explain to the children what has put the marriage in this place.
> 
> Pragmatically, I can see no other course forward that allows you to fulfill at least one of your dreams. The sad truth is that she is a lost cause anyway, at least with this plan you are not continually expecting her to be honorable and being consistently disappointed. Use her for what you need and when the opportunity arises that you no longer need her assistance then cut her loose and find a woman to live out your days with who truly cares for you.


I have learned it is not a freedom to live this way. It eats and eats at me and I waste precious time - and life- monitoring her and living with the knot in the stomach when she is away. I gave plenty of excuses over the years and basically tried running from the problem- i.e. left WI, got her to quit the job she worked at with jay etc.- and this past week proved it didn't matter - he isn't going away. Just hearing that she would be "officially" talking to him set off a wave of emotions for me and it's almost like I knew in a weird way. Once I realized how hard she lied about that fact that jay was still here it opens up the whole gut wrenching questions of how long has she been lying to me and that is something I can I can no longer handle. I understand you and everyone else has been saying this for some time and I apologize but it is what it is.

For whatever reason many of you are saying and pointing out the right things at this right time and it is really hitting home.


----------



## anchorwatch

bremik said:


> When I wrote my bleeding heart letter to her I referenced how I felt jay was the core of the problems and we needed to get that figured out.


I hope it's no surprise to you that Jay is not the problem?


----------



## Bremik

TRy said:


> @OP: In looking at your quote above something jumped out at me. For the entirety of your marriage you have not been your wife's priority, Jay has. She has shown this to be true time and again. This is important to note because most divorces are due to reasons other than their spouse having sex with someone else outside of the marriage. At its root, often divorces are due to one of the spouses not feeling like they are the priority to their spouse. For example, if the spouse is workaholic, then the divorce is due to work being the priority of the spouse. Another example would be if the spouse is an alcoholic or drug addict, then the divorce is due to alcohol or other drugs being the priority of the spouse. Other examples would be if the spouse makes online gaming, friends, a non-physical emotional affair partner, or a hobby their priority. In your case your wife has been addicted to Jay your entire marriage, and push comes to shove, she has always made it clear to you and Jay that Jay is the priority. She is so open about it that both you and Jay expect it of her.
> 
> I say this because, you do not need to prove that she had sex with Jay (although she clearly has) in order to have a valid reason to divorce her. In consistently making Jay her priority over you, she has broken the most basic commitment of your marriage which is to make you her priority in life. This is an undeniable fact that needs no more discovery.


This is a very profound and true point you are making and I believe it parallels what Affaircare was saying. This very thought process is what is driving me now. It didn't matter what I did or how I treated her I have always been only a part of her equation instead of the whole thing. In some way I think the realization that he is still here is what finally woke me up. It is like I fired every weapon, blew up every bomb I had at him and as the smoke clears he is still standing there and she goes and consoles him right in front of me- heartbreaking but extremely maddening at the same time and my motivation is the coming from the maddening. I am accepting what will happen will happen with the farm side because I feel like a huge weight will be lifted with jay out of the picture- it's just too bad my wife couldn't let go and has to go with him. It will still be the death of a marriage to me and it will still hurt


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## Bremik

anchorwatch said:


> I hope it's no surprise to you that Jay is not the problem?




I assume you mean that my wife is? I agree and that is why I never felt the need to deal directly with jay or adam. If she keeps opening the gate and letting them in all I am going to do is wear myself out getting rid of them. I always felt the need to just deal with her- I just didn't do very well at it. I also think had I dealt with it properly in college we could have had a different outcome with her being still in the picture so that I have to live with


----------



## Bremik

Evinrude58 said:


> Bremik,
> You do realize that she is NEVER going to stop seeing this guy, right?


That has been my take home from this week yes.


----------



## Affaircare

> Affaircare said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I think the time has come to just decide if you're going to accept the AP on the side in exchange for keeping the farm and kids--or if you're unwilling to accept an AP in your marriage but risk the farm and kids. I'm not being mean--just pick one and know that you made the choice!
> 
> If you choose to accept the AP in exchange for keeping the farm and the kids, then we can talk to you about how to accept something you find a "bitter pill" or something that is hard. I honestly doubt you'll ever be very happy IN YOUR MARRIAGE because you'd prefer to control her and "make her stop" and she's not going to stop (no matter what promises she makes). Can you accept that and find happiness in other areas of your life?
> 
> If you choose to NOT accept infidelity in your marriage relationship, then we can talk to you about how to focus on taking one step at a time, and controlling YOU (not her), and setting a boundary AROUND YOU that says you'll only accept 100% faithful partner and here's what that looks like... I am not sure you'll be happy IN YOUR LIFE for a while if you make this choice, because for a while, as you learn to stand up for yourself and expect respect from your marriage partner, the change is likely to cause some drama between you two--the dynamic has changed and she likes the dynamic where she has you as finances and service, and him for fun and compliments.
> 
> So I'll ask right out: what is your decision?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bremik said:
> 
> 
> 
> At whatever cost I do not want to accept this anymore. The fact that she has flat out lied to me AGAIN on this especially with him is way more than I want to accept. I am tired of the jay cancer in my life with or without her I want him gone
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Okay great! We have a decision! YOU are choosing to NOT accept infidelity in *your *life, or as you worded it "I am tired of the Jay cancer in my life and with or without her I want him gone." That being the case, let's go over a few basics. 

First, I want to be sure there is clarity about one thing: YOU can't do anything to "make" your wife give up Jay. It's like any other "addiction"--for her to really and truly let him go, SHE has to want to do it and SHE has to police herself. If she was overweight, SHE would have to want to eat healthier and SHE would have to get up off the couch and exercise on her own, herself--right? If she was an alcoholic, SHE would have to want to stop drinking more than she wanted to be numb and not feel. SHE would have to get to an AA meeting on her own without you nagging her, and she would have to keep herself away from bars and liquor stores--right? If she was a coke addict, SHE would have to want to get clean and SHE would have to get herself into rehab and work the work to get clean or else it wouldn't "take"--right? It's the same here (or very, very similar anyway). You may want it all you want, but you are not her and no matter how much you nag or snoop or help or remind her--if she doesn't want it she will find a way to hide it just like an addict who doesn't really want to stop. 

Next, I want to also clarify that you CAN control YOU. You can choose for yourself the type of people you want to allow to be intimately close to you--and I don't just mean physically. I mean that you can choose who gets to see the real you, who gets to share day-to-day life with you, and who knows you deeply--emotionally, spiritually, mentally, and yep physically. Envision a little fence around you (I think of it as an invisible "closeness" barrier around me)...who are you going to allow into your personal space? You want to allow a liar in there to see the real you? You choose to give an unfaithful person your deepest secrets and hopes and dreams? OR are you going to choose to say 'Nope I only allow HONEST people in close'... or 'I choose to have faithful, committed people closest to me and seeing the real me' ... make sense? 

So when we recommend "setting a boundary" to you, we are not suggesting that you give your wife a "rule" that she "has to" obey, and you're going to check up on her and punish her if she does it. That would be abusive, and you would be her jailer, not her partner!! Nope, setting a boundary is all about YOU setting a limit on YOU. For example, I can't tell you if you should or should not leave the farm, but I can choose whether or not I allow a farmer to be someone to whom I write. So you pick or don't pick as you as an independent adult choose...and likewise I pick as an independent adult. Not every choice * I * make will be smart; in fact some will be darn stupid and the hope is that I will learn from the mistake. Likewise some of the choices you make, I may adamantly disagree with! And likewise, your wife gets to choose for herself and some of the things she chooses you may see from a mile away are going to hurt others or be a train wreck. She gets to choose stupid things...and she also gets to experience the natural consequence of what she picked. 

Does this make sense? It may not seem like much of a difference, but in reality this difference is HUGE. You can not stop her from doing whatever it is she chooses to do! But you can stop what has access to YOU. So she is free to choose to be the kind of person who is dishonest, disloyal, uncommitted, and unfaithful if that it who she really wants to be--but what she CAN NOT do is make you open up yourself and your life to share in her lack of character. 

Now...all that being the case, I think @CynthiaDe and @lucy999 have given you some good BEGINNING advice in the sense that they gave you some ideas of "what you can do today." They may not be your final conclusion, but it is something to do right now: namely, she has consciously and purposefully chosen to lie to her life partner, and give her affection and loyalty and companionship to another--breaking her promise to "forsake ALL OTHERS." All others were NOT forsaken!!! You have chosen to no longer have Jay in YOUR life. Okay you can choose that. You can choose--right now, today--to say "I am not willing to share myself, my life, my thoughts and my feelings with someone who is in any way in contact with Jay." Period. End of discussion. You don't have to give her any other chances because you already gave her second and third chances. Okay? It is LEGITIMATE to say that the final line has been crossed. 

And if that is what you choose, I absolutely do recommend continuing to keep her out of the marital bedroom and I do recommend continuing to not engage in a sexual relationship. Here's why: the marital bedroom--the marital BED--is for the two people who are 100% committed to one another and only each other! It is a joy and privilege reserved for devoted, dedicated, loyal, steadfast spouses who are wholeheartedly passionate for one another. Like any other privilege, you're not just "entitled" to it--you earn it every day by being honest, loyal and affectionate that day. Likewise sex is reserved for the two people who are 100% committed and passionately intimate with each other on every level. You can **** someone who is a stranger and whom you don't know--but true intimacy and "making love" is only with your spouse, and she gave that to another person--maybe not physically, but emotionally and mentally and maybe even spiritually. 

Further, I would strongly recommend looking at divorce laws in your state. I don't know which state you live in, but if you tell me here in this thread, I'll like the laws for you so you can read them yourself. Knowledge is power. LEARN how your state calculates child support. LEARN whether you'd be paying alimony or she'd be paying it to you. LEARN how long it takes. Just read up on it and understand "how it's done" so that if you do choose to divorce, you have a solid understanding of how it will likely go. You can make a list of nearby law firms and then narrow the list down to your top five...and then make consultations with them. Ask them questions. Figure out what you want to ask!! LOL The point is that you need to take some actions. 

Finally I would recommend that you begin to recognize what I call "The Dance." In your marriage, there are two people dancing: you and your wife. Your wife takes one step backward, and you take a step with her. You take a step forward and she steps with you. It's kind of predictable, like a cycle. And what I want YOU to do is to begin to notice that cycle. So....how does it go? Do you catch her in contact with Jay and then she cries? And then "stand firm" and she offers sex? Then you back down a little bit and then she thinks everything is okay? Then she re-contacts Jay and catch her AGAIN...and she cries? See the pattern? What is YOUR pattern? Where are you in your pattern? What are the "dance steps" you usually take in the pattern (I see you catch her, you stand firm, you back down, and you catch her again ... are there more or different steps)? What steps are you going to do differently? What different thing are you going to do? 

Just note to yourself that so far, this "Dance" has worked for her. She wants to stay in touch with Jay, and dancing this dance in this order has accomplished that. So if you DO do a different step, she is going to try to get you to re-engage in the old dance. Usually people try to NICE you back to the old dance first because then they can claim they were just going nice or cover it up a bit. But if being nice doesn't work, they will quickly change to trying anger and threats to get you back under their thumb. If that doesn't work, the next attempts can be almost anything, desperately trying to get back to the old dance any way possible. If you know she will try to NICE you first, then likely try some sort of threats, my hope is that you'll be able to see it for what it is. If in doubt, come on here and ask. 

Soooo.. @bremik. We have a decision. We have some options. What is going to be your very first move? What is ONE THING you will be doing today?


----------



## introvert

I'm still not seeing proof, but if the OP is...and this has been going on for how many years?...I think we will continue to see him venting on here for the next nine years, or how many it has been since he originally posted with his suspicions.

OP, only you know if you can handle your wife's relationship with Jay. Your trust in her is gone, why not just go ahead and divorce? If she's really into this guy, she's not going to stop and you certainly aren't able to prevent her contacting him. Once you cut yourself loose from this relationship, do some serious reflecting. And I guarantee you, you will find somebody who will honor you and love you.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

introvert said:


> I'm still not seeing proof, but if the OP is...and this has been going on for how many years?...I think we will continue to see him venting on here for the next nine years, or how many it has been since he originally posted with his suspicions.
> 
> OP, only you know if you can handle your wife's relationship with Jay. Your trust in her is gone, why not just go ahead and divorce? If she's really into this guy, she's not going to stop and you certainly aren't able to prevent her contacting him. Once you cut yourself loose from this relationship, do some serious reflecting. And I guarantee you, you will find somebody who will honor you and love you.


Proof of what? Actual sexual intercourse or lies throughout a 22 year marriage?

I honestly have no clue what you are looking for to help him stay or move. His wife has lied, hidden issues with other men, lied about Jay, cried, used sex as an equalizer, crossed multiple boundaries with men and disrespected her family. Yes, this is infidelity of epic proportions. Honestly, the lies of couples in infidelity bother me more than the sex on an intimate level.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bremik said:


> I assume you mean that my wife is? I agree and that is why I never felt the need to deal directly with jay or adam. If she keeps opening the gate and letting them in all I am going to do is wear myself out getting rid of them.


My suggestion of contact is strictly for you. You seem to be afraid to make the leap away from this woman. So, maybe seeing a text from the guy talking about their shenanigans or reminiscing about a trip you KNOW doesn't coincide with anything you knew was planned, will help you move on. 




> I always felt the need to just deal with her- I just didn't do very well at it. I also think had I dealt with it properly in college we could have had a different outcome with her being still in the picture so that I have to live with[/QUOTE


Stoptop blaming yourself. 20/20 hindsight always leaves out the rose colored glasses when it is brought up. You have no clue what would have happened if you " dealt with it properly in college." No offense, but she chose you because of your reluctance to call her out. So, it is easier for me to believe she would have moved on until, she found someone else who would allow her to have boy "friends."


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## introvert

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Proof of what? Actual sexual intercourse or lies throughout a 22 year marriage?
> 
> I honestly have no clue what you are looking for to help him stay or move. His wife has lied, hidden issues with other men, lied about Jay, cried, used sex as an equalizer, crossed multiple boundaries with men and disrespected her family. Yes, this is infidelity of epic proportions. Honestly, the lies of couples in infidelity bother me more than the sex on an intimate level.


Most certainly. And that is why I have advised him to move on and find someone who will honor him. We are actually on the same page, mein freund.

Truth is, he's had all the signs and evidence he's needed for many years.


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## introvert

Here's why I feel there's no hardcore proof of an affair. 

I'm a lesbian. I am friends with both men and women. There have been nights, especially in my youth, that I spent in the arms of one of my male friends who knew me since I was 20 years old. It wasn't sexual. It was just love. We didn't have sex, it was just that we knew each other so well, and for the longest time. We had similar interests in poetry and literature. We hung out together all the time. 

So, for me, this sort of relationship is possible. That's why I thought it could be the same for the Mrs. bremik.

With that said, he needs to either accept things or move on and divorce. If he doesn't trust her, and he can't ever, he needs to **** or get off the pot.

There is somebody for everyone. He will find the woman of his dreams if he lets go of this one.


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## Evinrude58

This woman is not a lesbian as far as I know. Therefore as a man that likes women, I assure you this guy isn't devoting this much time and energy to a "friend". 

He is meeting her on those trips because he wants some physical intimacy with her. And a hug is not enough, I assure you.

I personally don't think a married person with kids has a lot of time for friends. A family is a big responsibility.

This woman, sex or not, has put her "friend " far ahead of her husband in priority.
She has shamed him. 

What she deserves is a divorce.
What is 99% likely to be required for Bremik to be with a loyal woman is divorce.

Does anyone really think there is anything he can do that would help get jay out of his wife's life?
I am doubtful if even filing for divorce and kicking her out would work. A few months of being secure again would likely find her having the urge to communicate with her 23 year boyfriend again.

Bremik is going to have to have show the kind of resolve that few people possess in order to extricate himself from this situation.

I do feel badly for him.
What's bad is only he can help himself through this.


----------



## Bibi1031

bremik said:


> I assume you mean that my wife is? I agree and that is why I never felt the need to deal directly with jay or adam. If she keeps opening the gate and letting them in all I am going to do is wear myself out getting rid of them. I always felt the need to just deal with her- I just didn't do very well at it. I also think had I dealt with it properly in college we could have had a different outcome with her being still in the picture so that I have to live with


Thank goodness you have chosen to take your backbone back!

That is the first step to healing and becoming the man you should have been long ago. Probably when you two were dating and you committed the biggest mistake of your life by marrying this woman.

Never too late to fix what was sooooo wrong all that long ago. Things will be hard, but your will be a better man and father to your children now that you are getting rid of this horrible woman who took advantage in such a terrible way. 

You don't even care about the farm anymore. That is another step forward indeed.

Let us know how it goes with your lawyer. 

One big step forward is not engaging in sexual activities with your hopefully soon to be X wife!


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## TRy

introvert said:


> I'm still not seeing proof, but if the OP is...and this has been going on for how many years?...I think we will continue to see him venting on here for the next nine years, or how many it has been since he originally posted with his suspicions.


 The OP does not need any more proof of anything, because this is about far more than just “did she have sex with the Jay”. I summarized a post that I wrote to the OP by ending it saying that "you do not need to prove that she had sex with Jay (although she clearly has) in order to have a valid reason to divorce her. In consistently making Jay her priority over you, she has broken the most basic commitment of your marriage which is to make you her priority in life. This is an undeniable fact that needs no more discovery." The OP responded directly to my post by saying that “This very thought process is what is driving me now. It didn't matter what I did or how I treated her I have always been only a part of her equation instead of the whole thing.”

Sex or no sex with Jay, the OP is tired of being treated like number 2 (pun intended) because of Jay being her number 1. Although there are many other examples, the one that really irked me is how she treated the OP when they went together to the annual out of town convention in WI. After not being with her husband the OP all day, she was supposed to meet up with him for dinner after the show. Instead, every year she no showed for dinner with her husband so that she could instead have dinner with and party with Jay; and since the OP did not see her all day, who is to say that she did not spend the entire day and night with Jay. After being repeatedly treated this way by his wife, the OP has not even bothered to go to the convention with her the last couple of years. The thought of the OP year after year being stood up by his own wife, eating dinner alone while out of town, because the wife was making it clear to the OP and Jay that she would rather spend her time with Jay than with her husband, makes my blood boil, and apparently the OP feels the same way about it. The level of disrespect that she has shown the OP over the years is all the proof that the OP needs to take action.


----------



## commonsenseisn't

bremik said:


> where jay caused trouble .... I referenced how I felt jay was the core of the problems ...


Bud, I just gotta tell you that Jay is not the problem. It's your cheating wife. You've got to stop fixating on Jay because when you have a wife like yours there will always be a "Jay" out there and she will find him and do her thing. 

Bremik, I'm sorry you're going through this. I hope you'll forge ahead and get out of this toxic relationship. Some day when this is behind you I hope you will find a good woman, and when you do you will marvel at what a difference it will make. It happened to me and it can happen for you. Only then will you comprehend what a poor spouse you currently have because the contrast will be so stark. Have faith and charge forward.


----------



## Malaise

phillybeffandswiss said:


> My suggestion of contact is strictly for you. You seem to be afraid to make the leap away from this woman. So, maybe seeing a text from the guy talking about their shenanigans or reminiscing about a trip you KNOW doesn't coincide with anything you knew was planned, will help you move on.
> 
> 
> Stoptop blaming yourself. 20/20 hindsight always leaves out the rose colored glasses when it is brought up. You have no clue what would have happened if you " dealt with it properly in college." *No offense, but she chose you because of your reluctance to call her out.* So, it is easier for me to believe she would have moved on until, she found someone else who would allow her to have boy "friends."


Winner!

Manipulators chose those easiest to manipulate not the hardest.


----------



## manfromlamancha

bremik said:


> I assume you mean that my wife is? I agree and that is why I never felt the need to deal directly with jay or adam. If she keeps opening the gate and letting them in all I am going to do is wear myself out getting rid of them. I always felt the need to just deal with her- I just didn't do very well at it. I also think had I dealt with it properly in college we could have had a different outcome with her being still in the picture so that I have to live with


Actually, at this point neither Jay nor your wife is the problem - you are!!!!


----------



## Bremik

Bibi1031 said:


> Thank goodness you have chosen to take your backbone back!
> 
> That is the first step to healing and becoming the man you should have been long ago. Probably when you two were dating and you committed the biggest mistake of your life by marrying this woman.
> 
> Never too late to fix what was sooooo wrong all that long ago. Things will be hard, but your will be a better man and father to your children now that you are getting rid of this horrible woman who took advantage in such a terrible way.
> 
> You don't even care about the farm anymore. That is another step forward indeed.
> 
> Let us know how it goes with your lawyer.
> 
> One big step forward is not engaging in sexual activities with your hopefully soon to be X wife!


It's not that I don't care about the farm anymore it is just that I realized with my conversations on here that even if the farm itself is done after this I have accomplished what I wanted it to do for my children. They are very good contributors to society and still want to get back to a farm. They have the farm background and interest in it and apparently suffered no ill effects from it because they want to come back! 

I have noted on here- and I meant it- there were some very good points made. It DOESN'T matter if my wife has done anything beyond an emotional affair, what matters is I have always been number 2. When push came to shove she has always chose jay, adam or whoever first. When that was discussed I think that is exactly how I felt when I found those recent texts. He is STILL here. We have been in the heaviest relationship discussion ever for us in the last year and he has been around the whole time. So that tells me no matter how intense it got or how direct I was or how many times I said I don't want to do this anymore he was STILL there and she didn't say a word.


----------



## Bremik

commonsenseisn't said:


> Bud, I just gotta tell you that Jay is not the problem. It's your cheating wife. You've got to stop fixating on Jay because when you have a wife like yours there will always be a "Jay" out there and she will find him and do her thing.
> 
> Bremik, I'm sorry you're going through this. I hope you'll forge ahead and get out of this toxic relationship. Some day when this is behind you I hope you will find a good woman, and when you do you will marvel at what a difference it will make. It happened to me and it can happen for you. Only then will you comprehend what a poor spouse you currently have because the contrast will be so stark. Have faith and charge forward.


Thanks for that and it does help to hear positive results from someone who has done it! Then I am guessing maybe you understand the knot and sick feeling in my stomach right now? But like I said earlier I have just pulled my hat down and keep moving forward a heavy step at a time. Hoping talking to a lawyer is going to further push me along


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

bremik said:


> I have noted on here- and I meant it- there were some very good points made. It DOESN'T matter if my wife has done anything beyond an emotional affair, what matters is I have always been number 2. When push came to shove she has always chose jay, adam or whoever first. When that was discussed I think that is exactly how I felt when I found those recent texts. He is STILL here. We have been in the heaviest relationship discussion ever for us in the last year and he has been around the whole time. So that tells me no matter how intense it got or how direct I was or how many times I said I don't want to do this anymore he was STILL there and she didn't say a word.


We simply called that" situational awareness" in the day... it's said, when you find no willing solution to a problem, it’s probably not a problem to be solved, but a truth to be accepted, but accepting her truth does not confine you in yours.

If she doesn't like where her truth has led her, letting go will speak volumes to her and bring peace to you.

She may find your peace unnerving though... allow her to question where she has placed herself.

Sometimes growth simply hurts but the rewards are worth the momentary suffering just to be able to identify them.


----------



## Bremik

Affaircare said:


> Okay great! We have a decision! YOU are choosing to NOT accept infidelity in *your *life, or as you worded it "I am tired of the Jay cancer in my life and with or without her I want him gone." That being the case, let's go over a few basics.
> 
> First, I want to be sure there is clarity about one thing: YOU can't do anything to "make" your wife give up Jay. It's like any other "addiction"--for her to really and truly let him go, SHE has to want to do it and SHE has to police herself. If she was overweight, SHE would have to want to eat healthier and SHE would have to get up off the couch and exercise on her own, herself--right? If she was an alcoholic, SHE would have to want to stop drinking more than she wanted to be numb and not feel. SHE would have to get to an AA meeting on her own without you nagging her, and she would have to keep herself away from bars and liquor stores--right? If she was a coke addict, SHE would have to want to get clean and SHE would have to get herself into rehab and work the work to get clean or else it wouldn't "take"--right? It's the same here (or very, very similar anyway). You may want it all you want, but you are not her and no matter how much you nag or snoop or help or remind her--if she doesn't want it she will find a way to hide it just like an addict who doesn't really want to stop.
> 
> Next, I want to also clarify that you CAN control YOU. You can choose for yourself the type of people you want to allow to be intimately close to you--and I don't just mean physically. I mean that you can choose who gets to see the real you, who gets to share day-to-day life with you, and who knows you deeply--emotionally, spiritually, mentally, and yep physically. Envision a little fence around you (I think of it as an invisible "closeness" barrier around me)...who are you going to allow into your personal space? You want to allow a liar in there to see the real you? You choose to give an unfaithful person your deepest secrets and hopes and dreams? OR are you going to choose to say 'Nope I only allow HONEST people in close'... or 'I choose to have faithful, committed people closest to me and seeing the real me' ... make sense?
> 
> So when we recommend "setting a boundary" to you, we are not suggesting that you give your wife a "rule" that she "has to" obey, and you're going to check up on her and punish her if she does it. That would be abusive, and you would be her jailer, not her partner!! Nope, setting a boundary is all about YOU setting a limit on YOU. For example, I can't tell you if you should or should not leave the farm, but I can choose whether or not I allow a farmer to be someone to whom I write. So you pick or don't pick as you as an independent adult choose...and likewise I pick as an independent adult. Not every choice * I * make will be smart; in fact some will be darn stupid and the hope is that I will learn from the mistake. Likewise some of the choices you make, I may adamantly disagree with! And likewise, your wife gets to choose for herself and some of the things she chooses you may see from a mile away are going to hurt others or be a train wreck. She gets to choose stupid things...and she also gets to experience the natural consequence of what she picked.
> 
> Does this make sense? It may not seem like much of a difference, but in reality this difference is HUGE. You can not stop her from doing whatever it is she chooses to do! But you can stop what has access to YOU. So she is free to choose to be the kind of person who is dishonest, disloyal, uncommitted, and unfaithful if that it who she really wants to be--but what she CAN NOT do is make you open up yourself and your life to share in her lack of character.
> 
> Now...all that being the case, I think @CynthiaDe and @lucy999 have given you some good BEGINNING advice in the sense that they gave you some ideas of "what you can do today." They may not be your final conclusion, but it is something to do right now: namely, she has consciously and purposefully chosen to lie to her life partner, and give her affection and loyalty and companionship to another--breaking her promise to "forsake ALL OTHERS." All others were NOT forsaken!!! You have chosen to no longer have Jay in YOUR life. Okay you can choose that. You can choose--right now, today--to say "I am not willing to share myself, my life, my thoughts and my feelings with someone who is in any way in contact with Jay." Period. End of discussion. You don't have to give her any other chances because you already gave her second and third chances. Okay? It is LEGITIMATE to say that the final line has been crossed.
> 
> And if that is what you choose, I absolutely do recommend continuing to keep her out of the marital bedroom and I do recommend continuing to not engage in a sexual relationship. Here's why: the marital bedroom--the marital BED--is for the two people who are 100% committed to one another and only each other! It is a joy and privilege reserved for devoted, dedicated, loyal, steadfast spouses who are wholeheartedly passionate for one another. Like any other privilege, you're not just "entitled" to it--you earn it every day by being honest, loyal and affectionate that day. Likewise sex is reserved for the two people who are 100% committed and passionately intimate with each other on every level. You can **** someone who is a stranger and whom you don't know--but true intimacy and "making love" is only with your spouse, and she gave that to another person--maybe not physically, but emotionally and mentally and maybe even spiritually.
> 
> Further, I would strongly recommend looking at divorce laws in your state. I don't know which state you live in, but if you tell me here in this thread, I'll like the laws for you so you can read them yourself. Knowledge is power. LEARN how your state calculates child support. LEARN whether you'd be paying alimony or she'd be paying it to you. LEARN how long it takes. Just read up on it and understand "how it's done" so that if you do choose to divorce, you have a solid understanding of how it will likely go. You can make a list of nearby law firms and then narrow the list down to your top five...and then make consultations with them. Ask them questions. Figure out what you want to ask!! LOL The point is that you need to take some actions.
> 
> Finally I would recommend that you begin to recognize what I call "The Dance." In your marriage, there are two people dancing: you and your wife. Your wife takes one step backward, and you take a step with her. You take a step forward and she steps with you. It's kind of predictable, like a cycle. And what I want YOU to do is to begin to notice that cycle. So....how does it go? Do you catch her in contact with Jay and then she cries? And then "stand firm" and she offers sex? Then you back down a little bit and then she thinks everything is okay? Then she re-contacts Jay and catch her AGAIN...and she cries? See the pattern? What is YOUR pattern? Where are you in your pattern? What are the "dance steps" you usually take in the pattern (I see you catch her, you stand firm, you back down, and you catch her again ... are there more or different steps)? What steps are you going to do differently? What different thing are you going to do?
> 
> Just note to yourself that so far, this "Dance" has worked for her. She wants to stay in touch with Jay, and dancing this dance in this order has accomplished that. So if you DO do a different step, she is going to try to get you to re-engage in the old dance. Usually people try to NICE you back to the old dance first because then they can claim they were just going nice or cover it up a bit. But if being nice doesn't work, they will quickly change to trying anger and threats to get you back under their thumb. If that doesn't work, the next attempts can be almost anything, desperately trying to get back to the old dance any way possible. If you know she will try to NICE you first, then likely try some sort of threats, my hope is that you'll be able to see it for what it is. If in doubt, come on here and ask.
> 
> Soooo.. @bremik. We have a decision. We have some options. What is going to be your very first move? What is ONE THING you will be doing today?


Once again you hit it out of the park! The one thing I am doing today is looking for lawyer options. I may not be working away tomorrow or a day or two next week so am hoping I can find one to go see. Thank you again for your very insightful and valuable input. I live in Ohio by the way


----------



## Bremik

Emerging Buddhist said:


> We simply called that" situational awareness" in the day... it's said, when you find no willing solution to a problem, it’s probably not a problem to be solved, but a truth to be accepted, but accepting her truth does not confine you in yours.
> 
> If she doesn't like where her truth has led her, letting go will speak volumes to her and bring peace to you.
> 
> She may find your peace unnerving though... allow her to question where she has placed herself.
> 
> Sometimes growth simply hurts but the rewards are worth the momentary suffering just to be able to identify them.



I have gotten a lot from your input as well so thank you! What do you mean by "allow her to question where she has placed herself"?


----------



## BetrayedDad

bremik said:


> I agree and that is why I never felt the need to deal directly with jay or adam


Woah, woah, woah.... wait a minute. :redcard:

Who the **** is Adam?!?!? This isn't even her first time?

Common man... WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU WAITING FOR???




anchorwatch said:


> I hope it's no surprise to you that Jay is not the problem?
> 
> 
> bremik said:
> 
> 
> 
> I assume you mean that my wife is?
Click to expand...

No. The problem isn't your wife or Jay or Adam or Chad. Sloots gonna sloot. She's a KNOWN cheat. This is no surprise. That's like blaming a bear for having claws and teeth.

The problem is YOU. You're a damn doormat and you lack self respect. Your cheating wife KNOWS this and stomps all over you because you do nothing. YOU are ALLOWING this.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

No thanks are necessary my friend...

I believe in all things for all people who fall into mindfulness... some call it hope, I call it humility.

She will face a time in her life where your discussions are going to hit home... where she will reflect on how and why she has behaved in such ways. She wanted it all and was driven by desires that overrode her proper priorities, and when confronted has been seemingly successful with a deflected responsibility, but there will be a time soon if you choose it when her ability to deflect will fall short and she must face her choices and will question what she has done and why she has done it.

When her awareness comes and she realizes that she has placed you both in this situation, that her tears of deflection were misplaced and how damaging they were, she will realize the sadness she has kept alive and the loyal husband she has hurt... a "come to Buddha (Jesus)"  moment in life we all face from time to time.

Give her this room to recognize it... the more calm you are as she thrashes her behavior, the more she will realize her ownership and reveal the desires that have polluted her life, and those that did not.

Your calm and confidence, in kindness and patience as you trust the process, will offer her an awakening that she cannot dismiss and the knowledge that you can let go of these things that hurt you, and that she is seen as one of those things should humble her if her heart and mind are right.

While you move forward understanding your present, give her the love and room to do so... 


* I might have found a more condensed way to say that, but I wrote as my heart and mind flowed and didn't desire to paraphrase. :grin2:


----------



## stixx

Now there's suddenly an Adam too?

I bet next week we will be introduced to Sam.


----------



## Bibi1031

Jay or Adam r anyone else don't matter anymore. His cheating wife doesn't matter anymore either. The focus must be on what OP can control. That would be HIS choices. 

You can't get rid of Jay because you didn't bring Jay into the marriage and kept him all through the marriage. You can remove Jay from your marriage by ending the marriage and also removing the cheaging wife. 

If she hasn't been able to get rid of Jay for these many years, she probably won't be able to do so now either. Her actions show this as truth and not just a possibility. 

That's the bottom line. The fork on the road is in front of you OP. Your actions will now determine your future. Will it be with Jay in it or will it Not? This is now 100% on you!


----------



## stixx

Bibi1031 said:


> Jay or Adam r anyone else don't matter


 @Bibi1031 of course it matters.

If you say Madam I'm Adam it's a palandrome.

If you say Madam I'm Jay it isn't much of anything.


----------



## Affaircare

bremik said:


> Once again you hit it out of the park! The one thing I am doing today is looking for lawyer options. I may not be working away tomorrow or a day or two next week so am hoping I can find one to go see. Thank you again for your very insightful and valuable input. I live in ___ by the way


Here is a link to the divorce laws in your state. This is written in legalese so it may not be easy to read, but by taking the time to actually READ it and study it and look up words in the dictionary, etc. you will become your own best legal advocate. Your lawyer will want billable hours--that is what they are trained to do. That doesn't necessarily EXCLUDE "giving you the best possible legal advise" but it can mean that they will advocate for further conflict in order to create a larger bill. So YOU need to learn all you can so you can advocate for yourself. YOU are the client and the lawyer works FOR YOU...not the other way around. You are responsible for your life and your marriage and your divorce. Okay?

Here is a fairly decent article with 50 Questions and Answers about ____ Divorce--just as a way to begin answering your own questions. From this little article alone, one thing that seems like a fairly reasonable task for today would be to make a list of all your assets and liabilities and where they stand as of today. Assets would be stuff you own that has a positive value. Liabilities would be debts you owe to someone else. So a house that is worth $200k but has a mortgage of $150k would potentially be on both lists OR be on the asset list for the $50k balance. The trick is this: for you to get a fair and equity division of marital property, you need to know what the marital property IS ... and where you stand. 

And here is a resource you are going to want to have: DadsDivorce. Specifically I'm linking you to the DadsDivorce Child Support Calculator--just click on your state for the estimator to come up. The reason DadsDivorce is such a good resource is that often women assume they are the primary parent and they will get child support and alimony--and essentially the stbx will pay for everything but they get to keep everything! LOL This resource will help you understand that you are just as much a parent to your children as your wife, AND that you have every right to have them and be a "single dad" as she does! This resource will help you get a FAIR AND EQUITABLE division of marital property, not her possibly delusional ideas of "you pay for everything but I get to keep everything" idea. 

In conclusion, bear in mind that looking at all this stuff--looking at the laws, looking at the Q&A, and looking at DadsDivorce and the CS calculator--and making the list of current assets and liabilities does not necessarily mean you've made your mind up. But how can you make a wise, informed decision if you don't know WHAT YOU FACE? 

Okay? So let me know if you're willing to take on today's assignment: make a list of all your assets and liabilities and where they stand as of today.


----------



## Hope1964

Affaircare said:


> STUFF


I sure hope you're listening to every single thing this poster is saying and taking notes!!


----------



## Bremik

Hope1964 said:


> I sure hope you're listening to every single thing this poster is saying and taking notes!!


Yes I am!!!


----------



## Bremik

BetrayedDad said:


> Woah, woah, woah.... wait a minute. :redcard:
> 
> Who the **** is Adam?!?!? This isn't even her first time?
> 
> Common man... WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU WAITING FOR???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. The problem isn't your wife or Jay or Adam or Chad. Sloots gonna sloot. She's a KNOWN cheat. This is no surprise. That's like blaming a bear for having claws and teeth.
> 
> The problem is YOU. You're a damn doormat and you lack self respect. Your cheating wife KNOWS this and stomps all over you because you do nothing. YOU are ALLOWING this.


I don't know if I was supposed to laugh or not but I did! I guess I should draw a timeline. Adam was the current question mark at the current job- excessive texting thread was about him. In fact all this past year has been about adam henceforth the reason knowing jay was still around was such a major trigger to change my doormat ways


----------



## Bremik

stixx said:


> Now there's suddenly an Adam too?
> 
> I bet next week we will be introduced to Sam.


most likely


----------



## Bremik

Affaircare said:


> Here is a link to the divorce laws in your state. This is written in legalese so it may not be easy to read, but by taking the time to actually READ it and study it and look up words in the dictionary, etc. you will become your own best legal advocate. Your lawyer will want billable hours--that is what they are trained to do. That doesn't necessarily EXCLUDE "giving you the best possible legal advise" but it can mean that they will advocate for further conflict in order to create a larger bill. So YOU need to learn all you can so you can advocate for yourself. YOU are the client and the lawyer works FOR YOU...not the other way around. You are responsible for your life and your marriage and your divorce. Okay?
> 
> Here is a fairly decent article with 50 Questions and Answers about Ohio Divorce--just as a way to begin answering your own questions. From this little article alone, one thing that seems like a fairly reasonable task for today would be to make a list of all your assets and liabilities and where they stand as of today. Assets would be stuff you own that has a positive value. Liabilities would be debts you owe to someone else. So a house that is worth $200k but has a mortgage of $150k would potentially be on both lists OR be on the asset list for the $50k balance. The trick is this: for you to get a fair and equity division of marital property, you need to know what the marital property IS ... and where you stand.
> 
> And here is a resource you are going to want to have: DadsDivorce. Specifically I'm linking you to the DadsDivorce Child Support Calculator--just click on your state for the estimator to come up. The reason DadsDivorce is such a good resource is that often women assume they are the primary parent and they will get child support and alimony--and essentially the stbx will pay for everything but they get to keep everything! LOL This resource will help you understand that you are just as much a parent to your children as your wife, AND that you have every right to have them and be a "single dad" as she does! This resource will help you get a FAIR AND EQUITABLE division of marital property, not her possibly delusional ideas of "you pay for everything but I get to keep everything" idea.
> 
> In conclusion, bear in mind that looking at all this stuff--looking at the laws, looking at the Q&A, and looking at DadsDivorce and the CS calculator--and making the list of current assets and liabilities does not necessarily mean you've made your mind up. But how can you make a wise, informed decision if you don't know WHAT YOU FACE?
> 
> Okay? So let me know if you're willing to take on today's assignment: make a list of all your assets and liabilities and where they stand as of today.



I already have that done for crop loans/bank info this year- so done! Looking up attorney options now. Won't work away tomorrow or Mon and Tue. Hope to meet with someone if at all possible


----------



## Affaircare

bremik said:


> I already have that done for crop loans/bank info this year- so done! Looking up attorney options now. Won't work away tomorrow or Mon and Tue. Hope to meet with someone if at all possible


Okay do you know what your bills are right now? Do you know whose name the bills are in and what their current balances are? Do you know the balances of ALL bank accounts? Are you sure you know about all bank accounts? What about things in the house? Are any of the things valuable (like a 60" flatscreen TV) or "of sentimental value" (like photos from your childhood)? Where are the "important papers" in the house, like birth certificates and social security cards? 

Also, in a previous post I said this: 



Affaircare said:


> Finally I would recommend that you begin to recognize what I call "The Dance." In your marriage, there are two people dancing: you and your wife. Your wife takes one step backward, and you take a step with her. You take a step forward and she steps with you. It's kind of predictable, like a cycle. And what I want YOU to do is to begin to notice that cycle. So....how does it go? Do you catch her in contact with Jay and then she cries? And then "stand firm" and she offers sex? Then you back down a little bit and then she thinks everything is okay? Then she re-contacts Jay and catch her AGAIN...and she cries? See the pattern? What is YOUR pattern? Where are you in your pattern? What are the "dance steps" you usually take in the pattern (I see you catch her, you stand firm, you back down, and you catch her again ... are there more or different steps)? What steps are you going to do differently? What different thing are you going to do?
> 
> Just note to yourself that so far, this "Dance" has worked for her. She wants to stay in touch with Jay, and dancing this dance in this order has accomplished that. So if you DO do a different step, she is going to try to get you to re-engage in the old dance. Usually people try to NICE you back to the old dance first because then they can claim they were just going nice or cover it up a bit. But if being nice doesn't work, they will quickly change to trying anger and threats to get you back under their thumb. If that doesn't work, the next attempts can be almost anything, desperately trying to get back to the old dance any way possible. If you know she will try to NICE you first, then likely try some sort of threats, my hope is that you'll be able to see it for what it is. If in doubt, come on here and ask.


I've noticed on one of your previous posts that you sort of wrote out the Dance Steps: "do something she shouldn't, get caught, appear devastated, turn up the sweetness- repeat." http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconc...zy-trying-figure-out-things.html#post16694626

So which "step" are we in now? The "appear devastated" step maybe leading toward the "turn up the sweetness" step? What does she usually do in these steps? What do YOU usually do? What are you doing differently this time? 
@bremik, it's important that you answer these questions because it helps you to learn about yourself and to figure out where some alternatives to the usual co-dependent responses. You can do this!! You're doing good!!


----------



## Evinrude58

I've got two words: serial cheater.

Stop wondering. Your wife will never, ever stop cheating.
She has done it for 20 something years. She has no intention of stopping.

Want a clear head?

Divorce her and endure the associated pain and find another woman who won't drive you crazy.

Your wife is a terrible person.


----------



## JohnA

What was your wife's experiences with her parents marriage while she was growing up? Does she has FOO or CSA issues from her youth? Are you familiar with Cluster B or BPD Personality issues? 

Same questions to you.


----------



## Affaircare

Oops--duplicate


----------



## Affaircare

For those following along, I've made a bit of a "timeline" for @bremik. He's kind of hard to follow sometimes....

THREAD NAME {DATE IT WAS POSTED}
RELEVANT FACTS

not sure where I stand {2-5-2009}
Wife parties with Jay in college while married (14+ years ago), and now took a job in same company with Jay and Dave. She stays out until 2-3am partying with the two of them while on trips. Both of them are married. (restarted after 4-2 thread) Wife can't understand why Bremik can't "get over this." He's been mean to her for 6 months. She is not lying to him. He is blowing things out of proportion

what boundaries to set {12-9-2015}
Emailing a coworker (no name). Emails are about work but also have personal chat thrown in. No sexting or obvious PA. She was caught and said she'd stop, but they changed the way they are communicating. Wife's family does not do "consequences." She says Bremik is smothering her by asking about her or checking on her. She agree to live by his rules 2-11-16 (but covered up continued contact). (NOTE: I think this coworker is "Adam")

How to disagree with positive results {4-27-2016}
Wife is not accountable for money. They have 3 children--in college, end of HS age 20, 18, 16.

Where is the line from being controlling to concerned {5-2-2016}
Texting/flirting with current coworker before and during trip. Blossom Leigh gave great advice.

Going Crazy Trying to figure out things {10-12-2016}
Emails continue--deleted or erased. Coworker invited her to lunch. Coworker got her to be on company volleyball team, and she didn't tell Bremik she intended to join--he overheard it. One guy "dry humped' wife's leg in front of him. One guy's dad told people she was leaving you for his son. Not sleeping together in October. (NOTE: I think this coworker is "Adam" also)

Do You Ever Regret Your Decision? {2-16-2017}

How does the sand taste? {4-2-2017}
She avoided talking to him about his concerns. Wife works and earns 51%+ -- Bremik works -- the farm isn't utterly profitable. He discovered he was looking in the wrong places and she kept hiding contact. Her response so far--crank up the tears but no talking about it.


----------



## Malaise

Thanks @Affaircare

Didn't know all of this. OP, what more have you needed over the years? Serial cheater is a mild name for her.


----------



## Bibi1031

Malaise said:


> Thanks @Affaircare
> 
> Didn't know all of this. OP, what more have you needed over the years? Serial cheater is a mild name for her.


doormat is a mild name to describe him.:frown2:

He was naive and in love once, this can't be the real reason for having his head in the sand for this long is it? He is a successful father, land owner, but something is wrong emotionally here. 

Why were you emotionally stunted @bremik?

There have been several EAs for sure and probably physical ones as well. She is broken and her brokenness is evident, but I am more interested in why you were so easily fooled? How was your upbringing? Did you see her behavior as normal? I would like to understand because allowing so much damage from a worthless partner is mind boggling. 

Don't take me wrong, I was in dysfunctional relationships, but boy did I wake up when I got cheated on, and boy did I finally wake up when I realized that my 2nd X was incapable of love and that is why our marriage was so confusing, hurtful and run to the hills away from it even if no cheating was involved. 

It's never too late to learn a new cruel and sad dysfunction that requires letting go of that toxic relationship. In your case, it was during the dating stage!:scratchhead:


----------



## turnera

So what steps specifically are you taking to remove her tentacles from your body?


----------



## commonsenseisn't

bremik said:


> Thanks for that and it does help to hear positive results from someone who has done it! Then I am guessing maybe you understand the knot and sick feeling in my stomach right now? But like I said earlier I have just pulled my hat down and keep moving forward a heavy step at a time. Hoping talking to a lawyer is going to further push me along


Oh my gosh do I ever understand that sick feeling! Even though it's been a long time ago for me, I'll never forget how it suffocated me, paralyzed me ... it murdered my soul. But you know what? I somehow got through it. I made many mistakes and I didn't have benefit of TAM to help me through. I can assure you I've been there and done that. I'll never forget those hard earned lessons. Some of those lessons applied to me individually but most apply to all of us universally. They probably apply to you now. 

So back to your situation ... I can tell you that it will probably get emotionally worse before it gets better, but don't fear. It will be so worth it when you emerge from the abyss of being entwined with an unfaithful wife. I found that much of the time the only way I could survive was to focus only on the immediate task and moment at hand because it was too overwhelming to tackle anything beyond minutes, hours, or a couple of days from the present. 

Use the strategy of divide and conquer to accomplish the divorce. Get help from somebody, perhaps a lawyer to establish a timeline that includes an outline of what to do and when to do it in order to get out of your marriage. Then focus yourself on the task at hand and let all the overwhelming future take care of itself. 

I had to get a temporary prescription for depression medication which helped to numb my anxiety so I could function. I also had a difficult time wrapping my mind and heart around the fact that my ex was a truly rotten person, so I wrote a list of all her loathsome character traits and posted it inside my closet door so I could regularly remind myself how much better off I was without her. This could help you also. 

I didn't get personal counseling but looking back I really wish I had because it would have gotten me back on the right path much sooner. You might consider getting some too. 

After it was all over I emerged a much stronger and healthier person. I'll even admit that I wouldn't go back and change a thing because as crazy as it sounds, it was worth it. It provided the challenge that allowed me to become a vastly better person and capable of much greater happiness and satisfaction in life. This can happen for you too so hang in there and take it day by day. Strength and courage.


----------



## Bremik

Affaircare said:


> Okay do you know what your bills are right now? Do you know whose name the bills are in and what their current balances are? Do you know the balances of ALL bank accounts? Are you sure you know about all bank accounts? What about things in the house? Are any of the things valuable (like a 60" flatscreen TV) or "of sentimental value" (like photos from your childhood)? Where are the "important papers" in the house, like birth certificates and social security cards?
> 
> Also, in a previous post I said this:
> 
> 
> 
> I've noticed on one of your previous posts that you sort of wrote out the Dance Steps: "do something she shouldn't, get caught, appear devastated, turn up the sweetness- repeat." http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconc...zy-trying-figure-out-things.html#post16694626
> 
> So which "step" are we in now? The "appear devastated" step maybe leading toward the "turn up the sweetness" step? What does she usually do in these steps? What do YOU usually do? What are you doing differently this time?
> 
> @bremik, it's important that you answer these questions because it helps you to learn about yourself and to figure out where some alternatives to the usual co-dependent responses. You can do this!! You're doing good!!


I pay all the bills so yes I know all the balances etc. She is in the devastated phase still. I think she is a little in shock due to the lack of sex, hugs and I love you's trying to figure out how serious I am. I have been able to maintain course and if I feel urges I get away. Expecting sweet phase this weekend. Your dance talk was spot on so I am trying to pay attention the best I can- at this point it is easy to anticipate.

I have been further motivated in that despite all the sad looks and tears she STILL hasn't discussed anything so I continue to be nice and go about my day. There isn't tension or fighting. Everything would appear normal except for more personal stuff between us. I really think she is trying to figure out what I am doing!


----------



## Bremik

JohnA said:


> What was your wife's experiences with her parents marriage while she was growing up? Does she has FOO or CSA issues from her youth? Are you familiar with Cluster B or BPD Personality issues?
> 
> Same questions to you.


I don't know what any of those mean. I am very familiar with her family. Her dad and my dad went to college together and of course have known them ever since. I used to stay with her family in Ohio- I grew up in Florida- and helped them on their dairy in the summers while I was in high school.

Her mother was an only child and I always felt she treated her own children (4 in my wife's family) as if they were only children doing everything for them and lying for them if necessary. Her mother bought their love I feel, they would get things at the expense of the farm not getting it. They still weren't rich by any means but the children were still the priority right or wrong. If you tell me what all that means I can expand or if you have any specific questions.


Actually I read this again- BPD- is bi-polar disorder? I am sure she isn't that- I dated a girl in college that was and oh what a ride that is!


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

bremik said:


> I have been further motivated in that despite all the sad looks and tears she STILL hasn't discussed anything so I continue to be nice and go about my day. There isn't tension or fighting. Everything would appear normal except for more personal stuff between us. I really think she is trying to figure out what I am doing!


Stay focused on your motivation...

Anything you can’t control in life is teaching you how to let go. ~I have no idea who said this or where it came from but I believe in it dearly.


----------



## commonsenseisn't

Oh, and by the way do not, I repeat do NOT let her get to you through sex. You must launch yourself into a trajectory of separation and divorce. If you let her get to you it will set you back and mess with your mind and emotions. Before you know it you would be second guessing yourself and then presto, you're back in the mosh pit of despair. Think 180.


----------



## TRy

The current lie and deny game that she has had you playing all these years require that you tell her what you know, so that she can design the game around these and only these exact facts. Stop letting her make the rules in how these discussion should go. Stop telling her what you know, and start telling her that, regardless of what she wants or does not want to admit about her relationships with Jay and Adam, you are not happy and are going to now do something about it. Below is a sample of what you should say.

“Honey, I am aware of much more about your 20 year relationship with Jay and your relationship with Adam than you will ever know because I am not going to tell you what I know, but I will tell you that I know for a fact that you have not been honest with me about any of it. Now that the children are older, I can finally act on this information and do what is best for me and my happiness. I know that somewhere out there is a woman that will faithfully put me first; I also know that this woman is not you. After too many years of trying to make it work, I have decided to move on and file for divorce. I am trying to schedule an appointment with a divorce lawyer for next week. I just thought that you should know.” Then stop talking and walk away. The first person to speak after this loses.

If she is smart, she may try to wait you out before responding, but eventually she will lie and deny and then demand that you tell her what you know. In response to this you should tell her that “when I was trying to save the marriage, I use to play your game and tell you exactly what I know, but not anymore. I now feel that I owe you no more information than the little truthful information that you have been giving me all these years; which means that I owe you nothing except to say that I am done. Come on, I do not need to tell you about your inappropriate relationships with Jay and Adam, you already know. If you cannot be honest with me, at least be honest with yourself. In doing so you will know exactly why I am divorcing you.” Then refuse to talk about it anymore except to keep saying that you want a wife that puts you first and that you have a right to be happy.

Do you see how this changes the rules of the discussion? Do you see how you no longer need her to admit to the truth for you to take action? Do you see how this moves the ball into your court where she has something to prove (that she has been honest to you and always put you first), and where you have nothing to prove other than the fact that you are not happy with the marriage as it now stands? Your wife has lost her moral compass; this stops her from lead the way on how these discussions should go. 

“If you don’t like how the table is set, turn over the table.” – Francis Underwood, “House of Cards”


----------



## Bibi1031

Have you looked up borderline personality disorders. That is what my 2nd X suffers from I truly think. He is not diagnosed mind you, as he is perfect in every way.

It was all on ME and of course his other wife who can't disagree because sadly she passed away in her mid thirties.

I had not seen or experienced dealing with these type of individuals, but there are questionnaires you can fill out to figure out if this is probably what has been wrong with your WS. 

Narc is another personality disorder you may wish to look into. Sadly, this type of individuals are who my DD tends to gravitate towards. Thank goodness she had been in therapy for 3.5 years when she started dating my now son in law. He is a wonderful man, but is indeed too in love with her that his rose colored glasses are hindering his better judgement and can't see just how messed up my DD truly is. God bless him and may he wake up when my grand daughters are old enough to pick daddy as the parent they want to live with when DD does some stupid shenanigans again that need to be deal breakers for her love struck husband! 

No illness is excusable for destroying a loving spouse with infidelity or other horrible behaviors that if an ill person doesn't get treated for because they think they are fine and there is nothing wrong with their ridiculous choices needs or should endure unless innocent children are involved. Thank goodness those little ones will one day grow and then the sick person can be let go of. It's the humane thing to do for all involved. Enabling an ill person to do the damage they continue to do without serious consequences and professional help and meds is not helping them get better and damages all the parties involved needlessly. It's like lambs to the slaughter and we don't need martyrs anymore or ever.

Knowledge is power @bremik! Please read up on these disorders. They may very well be eye openers for you like they were for me.:surprise:


----------



## Evinrude58

BPD refers to borderline personality disorder.

You have got rough and rugged road to travel. Your wife has emotionally abused you for years.

Do you realize that? 

What she has done to you is enough to emotionally destroy a man.

I urge you to keep moving forward and laying plans for a new life without her and prepare the way for a happy new life.


----------



## Red Sonja

bremik said:


> Her mother was an only child and I always felt she treated her own children (4 in my wife's family) as if they were only children doing everything for them and lying for them if necessary. Her mother bought their love I feel, they would get things at the expense of the farm not getting it. They still weren't rich by any means but the children were still the priority right or wrong.


Therefore your wife learned that she is a princess who is entitled to anything she wants, that there are no consequences for behavior and that it's okay to lie and misdirect money to accomplish these things. All lessons learned at her mother's knee who BTW sounds like a master manipulator herself.

Talk about FOO (family-of-origin) issues! :slap:


----------



## Evinrude58

Red Sonja said:


> Therefore your wife learned that she is a princess who is entitled to anything she wants, that there are no consequences for behavior and that it's okay to lie and misdirect money to accomplish these things. All lessons learned at her mother's knee who BTW sounds like a master manipulator herself.
> 
> Talk about FOO (family-of-origin) issues! :slap:


Uh, yeah. She was trained through be a selfish, ****.
And the obseevation about consequences not applying to her----- yeeeeeeeppppp!


----------



## sokillme

Lets add some color commentary to make a point. 

*I am the ghost of Mr. @bremik's past*



Affaircare said:


> For those following along, I've made a bit of a "timeline" for @bremik. He's kind of hard to follow sometimes....
> 
> THREAD NAME {DATE IT WAS POSTED}
> RELEVANT FACTS
> 
> not sure where I stand {2-5-2009}
> Wife parties with Jay in college while married (14+ years ago), and now took a job in same company with Jay and Dave. She stays out until 2-3am partying with the two of them while on trips. Both of them are married. (restarted after 4-2 thread) Wife can't understand why Bremik can't "get over this." He's been mean to her for 6 months. She is not lying to him. He is blowing things out of proportion
> 
> bremik gives in to her guilt trip, hopes she will change and is miserable.
> 
> what boundaries to set {12-9-2015}
> Emailing a coworker (no name). Emails are about work but also have personal chat thrown in. No sexting or obvious PA. She was caught and said she'd stop, but they changed the way they are communicating. Wife's family does not do "consequences." She says Bremik is smothering her by asking about her or checking on her. She agree to live by his rules 2-11-16 (but covered up continued contact).
> 
> bremik gives into her guilt trip, shows her no consequences, hopes she will change and is miserable.
> 
> How to disagree with positive results {4-27-2016}
> Wife is not accountable for money. They have 3 children--in college, end of HS age 20, 18, 16.
> 
> bremik gives into her, shows her no consequences, hopes she will change and is miserable.
> 
> Where is the line from being controlling to concerned {5-2-2016}
> Texting/flirting with current coworker before and during trip. Blossom Leigh gave great advice.
> 
> bremik gives into her, shows her no consequences, hopes she will change and is miserable.
> 
> Going Crazy Trying to figure out things {10-12-2016}
> Emails continue--deleted or erased. Coworker invited her to lunch. Coworker got her to be on company volleyball team, and she didn't tell Bremik she intended to join--he overheard it. One guy "dry humped' wife's leg in front of him. One guy's dad told people she was leaving you for his son. Not sleeping together in October. (NOTE: I think this coworker is "Adam")
> 
> bremik gives into her, shows her no consequences, hopes she will change and is miserable.
> 
> Do You Ever Regret Your Decision? {2-16-2017}
> 
> bremik gives into her, shows her no consequences, hopes she will change and is miserable.
> 
> *Anyone noticing a pattern?*
> 
> How does the sand taste? {4-2-2017}
> She avoided talking to him about his concerns. Wife works and earns 51%+ -- Bremik works -- the farm isn't utterly profitable. He discovered he was looking in the wrong places and she kept hiding contact. Her response so far--crank up the tears but no talking about it.
> 
> bremik gives into her, shows her no consequences, hopes she will change and is miserable.


*I am the ghost of @bremik 's future*. 

Wife says she is sorry, tells him she will never do it again, is nice to him for a solid 2 weeks.

bremik gives into her, shows her no consequences, hopes she will change and is miserable.

a year passes

Wife starts underground texting relationship with new man on the job. bremik finds out about it and posts on here how we were all right. She apologizes and promises to change. Goes to counseling 3 whole times. 

bremik gives into her, shows her no consequences, hopes she will change and is miserable.

3 years from now. 

Wife starts a new job at small office has affair with the owner. bremik doesn't find out so no post. Some TAM members are relieved as they are beginning to think Mr. B doesn't want things to change. 

bremik is miserable.

5 years 

Wife tells bremik "I love you but I am not in love with you" and decides to move out of the house and to Cleveland (Florida is so cliche) but in a shocking twist it's not with the boss she has been having an affair with for 2 years, nope she cheated on him too, it's with the guy from the first post Jay. They have reconnected and have been 3D chatting for over a year now. They have discovered through their clandestine chats, all done in the romantic privacy of bathrooms and parking lots, that they are double super soulmates (soulmate who haven't have a real life interaction in 15 years) but 3D is very life like. 

bremik is miserable

OR, alternative future if you choose to be brave and take it.

Mr. B decides enough is enough, he has given up control of his happiness and agency for most of his adult life to a person who has basically treated him with contempt. He realizes that maybe he is just as big of a problem in this situation as his wife. There is something in him, maybe low self-esteem, maybe fear of being alone. Maybe the feeling of not being worthy of being loved but whatever it is he needs to address it. 

He begins to passionately and earnestly read books about codependency. This being the first He decides he needs to talk to a professional about his problems. Slowly the veil is lifted. He realizes that he has been allowing himself to be abused for a long time. That he has been looking for love from someone who is really incapable of giving him love at least in the honest way he seeks. For the first time in a long time he wants to take his agency back. He wants to have a life were his partners actions show that she respects him. He starts to get in shape. He starts to dress better. He goes to see a lawyer. After he has all his ducks in a row he tells his wife he loves her but he is not in love with her, and he needs to move on. And he isn't even cheating! He feels the best he has felt in probably his entire married life. 

However not so shockingly his wife begs and pleads, she posts on SI how she finally realizes what she had. This causes Mr. B some angst as his prior codependent tendency rage to bubble up to the surface. His prior self is screaming "you finally have what you always wanted!" Mr B is conflicted, however thankfully this is short lived as after 2 weeks of his wife acting contrite and decent to him, for the first time since early on in their dating life I might add, while out to dinner, her phone suddenly lights up with text from the bus boy she met at Denny's. "You one hot GILF, I can't wait to see you tomorrow night, you my dirty BO!" Mr. B for the last time in his life is miserable, but this time it's short lived, and most importantly he knows it's not because his soon to be ex tricked him again, it's because he finally gets that his choices are what has caused almost all of his misery. His wife has never changed throughout their whole marriage, she hasn't even been very good about pretending she would. Nope she is the same women he married. Why was he wasting his time thinking she would. This is who she is, it' in her nature. He vows never again. 

They divorce. 

A year passes, and Mr B has now put in 2 solid years of recovery from his codependent condition that he suffered from most of his life. He is really starting to be healthy and in so is giving of strong signs to a different type of woman then he has before. The types of women who in the past would have been attracted to him for his passivity, now don't even bother as they know they wouldn't last 2 dates. Mr B. takes no ****, he gives and expects respect period. One day he meets a pretty women who is kind and friendly and they begin a nice friendship, but Mr B make it plain to her that he would like to date her (no more white knighting, no more covert contracts). After a few week this women decides he is worth the chance. She has been burned before and isn't about to just date any guy. Their friendship turns into a solid love affair built on mutual respect. This love blossoms into a strong partnership, they have each others back and this bonds Mr. B to her unlike his past wife. He wonders why he put up with all he did now that he knows what it is like to have a true partner. 

Years pass, they take trips, visit grand children. Build a life and after years of happiness Mr. B is ready to go on, before he does he thanks his wife for being the partner that he dreamed of so long ago when he was young. Though there was a point in his life that he felt he would never have the dream. She gave that to him. And he silently thanks @sokillme for being neurotic enough to spend a half an hour writing a prediction his possible futures on the TalkAboutDivorce message board, back when he was miserable. 

_(unbeknownst to bremik SoKillMe has been in an insane asylum for years after reading one to many post from BH who continue to stay with wives that abuse them in the most horrendous manner. He no longer uses the letter R in a sentence. When asked why his only reply is "I'm against it". The final twist to this story though is that this is not the real reason the real reason for SKM's demise, it's because another poster @Quality has found a secret "insane causing" algorithm and has been peppering his responses to SKM's post. SKM's poor wife. No really I just spent a half an hour writing this. My poor wife!)_

Anyway bremik goes on to the next life knowing the second half of his life has been rewarding and fulfilling because he stopped being scared and decided that being in an abusive relationship was worse then even being in no relationship at all. 

What of the Ex. No one cares just like bremik shouldn't care, life is too short. 

I close my ****ensian fable with this OP, just like Ebenezer, learn from your history and possible future, do yourself a favor stop posting the same story over and over on here. Read the books get the help you need and go for the second reality. Again LIFE IS TOO SHORT.


----------



## Bremik

turnera said:


> So what steps specifically are you taking to remove her tentacles from your body?


The sleeping in separate rooms, no kisses, no I love you's, no sex seem to be doing something. I am maintaining normal activity otherwise and there is no mean spirit anywhere. Might not be huge steps but seems to be working.

I emailed 4 lawyers yesterday in the hopes of getting an initial consultation by Tue of next week. Like I have said before trying to keep moving forward no matter how heavy the steps. Trying to focus on this weekend as I am anticipating it will be the hardest


----------



## Bremik

Affaircare said:


> For those following along, I've made a bit of a "timeline" for @bremik. He's kind of hard to follow sometimes....
> 
> THREAD NAME {DATE IT WAS POSTED}
> RELEVANT FACTS
> 
> not sure where I stand {2-5-2009}
> Wife parties with Jay in college while married (14+ years ago), and now took a job in same company with Jay and Dave. She stays out until 2-3am partying with the two of them while on trips. Both of them are married. (restarted after 4-2 thread) Wife can't understand why Bremik can't "get over this." He's been mean to her for 6 months. She is not lying to him. He is blowing things out of proportion
> 
> She graduated from college in 1996. Started the job in 2008. We were going to Expo in WI every year since graduation where she would always leave me hanging
> 
> what boundaries to set {12-9-2015}
> Emailing a coworker (no name). Emails are about work but also have personal chat thrown in. No sexting or obvious PA. She was caught and said she'd stop, but they changed the way they are communicating. Wife's family does not do "consequences." She says Bremik is smothering her by asking about her or checking on her. She agree to live by his rules 2-11-16 (but covered up continued contact).
> 
> Dave was the one she was emailing. Dave and Jay were all in the group of friends she partied with in college
> 
> 
> How to disagree with positive results {4-27-2016}
> Wife is not accountable for money. They have 3 children--in college, end of HS age 20, 18, 16.
> 
> Where is the line from being controlling to concerned {5-2-2016}
> Texting/flirting with current coworker before and during trip. Blossom Leigh gave great advice.
> 
> Going Crazy Trying to figure out things {10-12-2016}
> Emails continue--deleted or erased. Coworker invited her to lunch. Coworker got her to be on company volleyball team, and she didn't tell Bremik she intended to join--he overheard it. One guy "dry humped' wife's leg in front of him. One guy's dad told people she was leaving you for his son. Not sleeping together in October. (NOTE: I think this coworker is "Adam")
> 
> Coworker is adam. Dry humping, guys dad saying she was leaving was all while in college and actually both events were the same person. His name was mike and was referenced to when she was going for training with the other company and I was bummed that he too was joining the coworker group. He also was part of party group in college but a total idiot.
> 
> Do You Ever Regret Your Decision? {2-16-2017}
> 
> How does the sand taste? {4-2-2017}
> She avoided talking to him about his concerns. Wife works and earns 51%+ -- Bremik works -- the farm isn't utterly profitable. He discovered he was looking in the wrong places and she kept hiding contact. Her response so far--crank up the tears but no talking about it.


----------



## Bremik

Bibi1031 said:


> doormat is a mild name to describe him.:frown2:
> 
> He was naive and in love once, this can't be the real reason for having his head in the sand for this long is it? He is a successful father, land owner, but something is wrong emotionally here.
> 
> Why were you emotionally stunted @bremik?
> 
> There have been several EAs for sure and probably physical ones as well. She is broken and her brokenness is evident, but I am more interested in why you were so easily fooled? How was your upbringing? Did you see her behavior as normal? I would like to understand because allowing so much damage from a worthless partner is mind boggling.
> 
> Don't take me wrong, I was in dysfunctional relationships, but boy did I wake up when I got cheated on, and boy did I finally wake up when I realized that my 2nd X was incapable of love and that is why our marriage was so confusing, hurtful and run to the hills away from it even if no cheating was involved.
> 
> It's never too late to learn a new cruel and sad dysfunction that requires letting go of that toxic relationship. In your case, it was during the dating stage!:scratchhead:


I

I always knew what she did was wrong but always came up with excuses for her. I don't remember details as well anymore but in college I remember thinking she was out of control and actually worried she was an alcoholic. Plus I didn't know all the stuff she did due to trusting her then. 

I knew we would be moving from WI so I thought the trouble would go away. When we would go back up to WI for expo and jay caused problems I was just happy we weren't there anymore. I honestly felt due to her family's and her poor action/consequence abilities that she was just being stupid. She is extremely nice, likable, and pretty which I always felt made her a great target for butt head guys. I never saw anything where she initiated and I felt she just wouldn't tell them to quit so that only encouraged them. We have always gotten along so well and our time together was always fun it just screwed with my head because those two opposites of her actions never made sense and still don't. This will seem dumb in light of everything but if it wasn't for whatever she does with these guys I would be extremely happy. I felt like I married the perfect woman who is a great mother and dream wife. I had told her when my oldest started college that nobody could look at her and believe she had a son in college. I have also told others that the only reason people don't like my wife is because they are jealous of her being the complete package. 
See how all this can mess with one's mind????

I have been reading no more mr. nice guy and I see some of those problems I have contributed to as far as how I handled them.


----------



## Malaise

bremik said:


> The sleeping in separate rooms, no kisses, no I love you's, no sex seem to be doing something. I am maintaining normal activity otherwise and there is no mean spirit anywhere. Might not be huge steps but seems to be working.
> 
> I emailed 4 lawyers yesterday in the hopes of getting an initial consultation by Tue of next week. Like I have said before trying to keep moving forward no matter how heavy the steps. Trying to focus on this weekend as I am anticipating it will be the hardest


You know the being 'devastated', crying, etc is not her realizing she may lose you , it's realizing she may lose control over you.

She's not discussing anything of note hoping she can outlast you and you'll give in. 

She figures you'll succumb for sex and then life will go for her.

Prove her wrong.


----------



## lucy999

bremik said:


> The sleeping in separate rooms, no kisses, no I love you's, no sex seem to be doing something. I am maintaining normal activity otherwise and there is no mean spirit anywhere. Might not be huge steps but seems to be working.
> 
> I emailed 4 lawyers yesterday in the hopes of getting an initial consultation by Tue of next week. Like I have said before trying to keep moving forward no matter how heavy the steps. Trying to focus on this weekend as I am anticipating it will be the hardest


You're being proactive now. 
Good for you!
@Affaircare thanks for the timeline.😊


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## NoChoice

OP,
Your W is not a monster, she is not despicable, she is not evil, what she is is a child. The stimulus in her childhood never forced maturation. One does not think a child evil but rather disciplines them to correct their behavior. What she needs is a good old fashioned spanking, or perhaps several. Some will call that abuse but is correcting the wayward behavior of an underdeveloped intellect, be it in the body of an 8 year old or a 38 year old, actually abusive or constructive? People say "this is what she wants" but in reality what child truly knows what they want, what is best for them? That is why they need guidance and discipline. She did not get enough when she was physically a child and now you pay the price.


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## 225985

Really dude? Enough with the she is a child and needs a spanking posts.


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## Bremik

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> Your W is not a monster, she is not despicable, she is not evil, what she is is a child. The stimulus in her childhood never forced maturation. One does not think a child evil but rather disciplines them to correct their behavior. What she needs is a good old fashioned spanking, or perhaps several. Some will call that abuse but is correcting the wayward behavior of an underdeveloped intellect, be it in the body of an 8 year old or a 38 year old, actually abusive or constructive? People say "this is what she wants" but in reality what child truly knows what they want, what is best for them? That is why they need guidance and discipline. She did not get enough when she was physically a child and now you pay the price.


That is exactly my feeling and also why I feel it messes with my mind so badly. I was going to write this morning that I compare our relationship to that of a parent and drug addict child of whatever age. As a parent no matter how much they steal from you or even maybe have physically harmed you , you still love that child with all your heart. You may cry and feel horrible when you call the police to turn them in because it is what they need but you STILL love them and must move forward.

It is obvious that discipline lacks in my wife's personal relationship and financial management. The same logic applies of how do you talk to jay still after all this and how do you write a check for something when you are told or have seen the money isn't in the account to cover it? Absolutely horrible action/consequence thought processing.


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## Chaparral

You saw a man humping your wife's leg and did nothing?

You seriously need to read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER by Athol Kaye(?) . Available at amazon and Barnes and Noble for book form or download. If some guy dry humped my wife, one of would have ended up in a hospital. It doesn't matter who won. The message is what your wife gets not the interloper. Not doing anything to stop it sent the message to your wife you weren't a manly man.


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## Bremik

Malaise said:


> You know the being 'devastated', crying, etc is not her realizing she may lose you , it's realizing she may lose control over you.
> 
> She's not discussing anything of note hoping she can outlast you and you'll give in.
> 
> She figures you'll succumb for sex and then life will go for her.
> 
> Prove her wrong.


I am trying very hard. Not saying it is easy because it is not. That's why I started looking for lawyers yesterday so I can keep moving forward. And that is why I keep checking in here. The single thought I keep in my head saying over and over is "she kept choosing jay". All the different scenarios jay has been in she ultimately somehow chose him first over me. She has said "but I married you" and my response has been that's because you didn't know jay before we got married. Now my response will still be the same but will now add "but once you met him you kept choosing him over me"


----------



## Bremik

Red Sonja said:


> Therefore your wife learned that she is a princess who is entitled to anything she wants, that there are no consequences for behavior and that it's okay to lie and misdirect money to accomplish these things. All lessons learned at her mother's knee who BTW sounds like a master manipulator herself.
> 
> Talk about FOO (family-of-origin) issues! :slap:


'
Yes very much so! The other interesting thing is keeping in mind my wife's mother treated each of them like an only child her dad was extremely laid back - I feel my wife is very much like him- and didn't MAKE any of the children help with the farm. My wife was the one most interested in the farm and was least interested in being a girl or house stuff. She knew all the cows, could drive tractors and was chief tractor driver as a result. So to that degree she was daddy's little girl however, the oldest daughter- my wife is 2nd oldest- was ALWAYS treated as the chosen child. She could show up in the barn for 5 minutes and that's all you heard about where my wife had been out there the whole time. 

My wife was content with driving whatever vehicle was available when she was of age whereas her older sister refused to drive the car bought for her because it was ugly and refused to drive a truck her parents wanted to buy because they needed one badly since it had a stick shift transmission. So the parents relented and got rid of the ugly car, didn't get the truck and went and bought a new car that the oldest drove 90% of the time- of course not letting my wife drive at all- and she drove it through college. It ended up with only 60k miles on it taken to the junkyard because of such poor maintenance on it. That dynamic exists still today. No matter what my wife has accomplished her sister who has done much less still is in the spotlight. We were milking 90 cows with 3 children under 6 and would drive 2 hrs both ways to go to her parents for family events where her sister lived an hour away, didn't get up til 9 am or later and all we have EVER heard is the sacrifices she makes- that dynamic still exists today!!!!


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## Evinrude58

The only way you can detach and move forward is by cutting as much contact with her as possible. Don't let yourself talk to her-- puts you backward.. Don't let yourself dwell on thoughts about her--- puts you backward. Do try to get yourself interested in something else. Hobbies, meet a new friend, get a side job. Anything to occupy your mind and get her off it.

Right now, your mind is still working on how to fix her. You are working on how to get things right.
You are thinking about her discussing things with you and telling you what you want to hear.
As long as you have hope that she will change and that this will stop--- IT WON'T.

What MIGHT cause her to realize that there are actually consequences is that you serve her with papers and making it obvious she is no longer your priority and that you really have stopped caring about her. I doubt even that would actually shake her up. But it's your only hope.

The 180 is not a strategy for getting your wife back. It's a strategy to help you get to a point mentally that you don't place importance on your spouse one way or another. It's to help you get healthy again. LEtting your spouse have this much power over your happiness is really not a good idea. I've done it, pretty much let it happen again with my current "relationship".

I'm growing, I'm learning, I'm becoming a much stronger person emotionally. You will have to as well, if you expect to be successful in this or any other relationship.

The absolute best thing to do in order to explain to your wife that she has disrespected you, wronged you, and that you are not tolerating it anymore is to STOP conversing with her. Every time you say "you chose him over me", you are telling her you CARE about HER. You've got to stop that. Start showing her that you care about YOU. Then, maybe, just maybe, she will start caring about you, too.


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## Bremik

Chaparral said:


> You saw a man humping your wife's leg and did nothing?
> 
> You seriously need to read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER by Athol Kaye(?) . Available at amazon and Barnes and Noble for book form or download. If some guy dry humped my wife, one of would have ended up in a hospital. It doesn't matter who won. The message is what your wife gets not the interloper. Not doing anything to stop it sent the message to your wife you weren't a manly man.


It is ironic you mentioned this because it came across my mind this morning. That guy was the same guy who's dad was telling everyone my wife was leaving me for his son. He was a complete idiot one of those types that everybody let hang around them because he would always do something so stupid it was funny but at times you would just roll your eyes at him.

A whole group my wife's friends- which included jay and this guy mike- and her and I went up to jay's hometown which was about 2 hrs from home. Basically just went out to bars. Mike was very drunk and being typical very stupid. My wife and I were sitting up at the bar with jay and some others. Mike came up out of nowhere and did that. My wife had nothing to do with instigating it and did try to push him back. For whatever reason I had 2 thoughts as I was holding back punching him- 1) how will we get home if I start a fight and 2) I was honestly afraid I would kill him I was so angry. Another irony is jay himself apologized for mike being stupid


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## Bremik

Evinrude58 said:


> The only way you can detach and move forward is by cutting as much contact with her as possible. Don't let yourself talk to her-- puts you backward.. Don't let yourself dwell on thoughts about her--- puts you backward. Do try to get yourself interested in something else. Hobbies, meet a new friend, get a side job. Anything to occupy your mind and get her off it.
> 
> Right now, your mind is still working on how to fix her. You are working on how to get things right.
> You are thinking about her discussing things with you and telling you what you want to hear.
> As long as you have hope that she will change and that this will stop--- IT WON'T.
> 
> What MIGHT cause her to realize that there are actually consequences is that you serve her with papers and making it obvious she is no longer your priority and that you really have stopped caring about her. I doubt even that would actually shake her up. But it's your only hope.
> 
> The 180 is not a strategy for getting your wife back. It's a strategy to help you get to a point mentally that you don't place importance on your spouse one way or another. It's to help you get healthy again. LEtting your spouse have this much power over your happiness is really not a good idea. I've done it, pretty much let it happen again with my current "relationship".
> 
> I'm growing, I'm learning, I'm becoming a much stronger person emotionally. You will have to as well, if you expect to be successful in this or any other relationship.
> 
> The absolute best thing to do in order to explain to your wife that she has disrespected you, wronged you, and that you are not tolerating it anymore is to STOP conversing with her. Every time you say "you chose him over me", you are telling her you CARE about HER. You've got to stop that. Start showing her that you care about YOU. Then, maybe, just maybe, she will start caring about you, too.


That's a great way to look at it too! I can't deny I still love her and it should be obvious that apparently it would take a lot for me not to. However, I can honestly say I am tired of this and looking at this all as a dance between her and I and watching it play out even now is incredible to be aware of. In MY MIND telling myself over and over that jay was always chosen first and that in spite of all this crying going on right now my wife still hasn't talked about it is what is motivating me forward. We were embroiled in the deepest talks of our relationship issues last year with me telling her that her actions were making me feel different towards her and yes the subject of divorce had come up yet all the while jay was "around" that is a brutal pill to swallow and I use it as my motivation.

I grew up moving around a lot when I was young and my dad is a veterinarian. For whatever reason I have learned to be able to detach and completely start over on things. If an animal came in to the clinic that I might have been attached to had to be put down that thought would bother me initially but once it was put down I accepted and moved on. We had a cow once that was out of my favorite cow family and I just loved her, she had been to the fair with the kids and was just awesome. She needed what we originally thought was going to be a simple surgery but when we got her opened up found out it was a lot worse and not repairable. I walked this cow out to the dirt lot with a halter on to be put down and she happily went bouncing along and I told the vet I needed him to put her down because I couldn't bear to do it. Once she was gone I accepted and moved on. What I am saying is I think that is where I am right now and why I just keep plodding forward. I am sure I will slip up before it is done but that is why I am so focused on laying the ground work with a lawyer etc. I don't want to do this but I know it is what has to be done and I think once it is done I will accept it and move on


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## TRy

bremik said:


> That guy was the same guy who's dad was telling everyone my wife was leaving me for his son.





bremik said:


> Mike came up out of nowhere and did that. My wife had nothing to do with instigating it and did try to push him back.


 Your wife did instigate it, but just not then. She instigated it by having a relationship with Mike that allowed Mike's dad to be "telling everyone" that your "wife was leaving" you for Mike. Mike's dad saying something like that does not happen in a vacuum. It is based on her actual inappropriate interactions with Mike and how others understand what your wife feels about her relationship with you. The humping her leg was Mike showing everyone including you who she and Mike were to each other.

Bremik, I got to tell you man, other's talking about her leaving you for Mike, and Mike humping her leg in front of you are each on their own outrageous, but together show how your wife is perceived by her coworkers. That perception is all on your wife. It is based on her actions and how she wants to be perceived. Cheaters typically want other men to feel that she is already planning on leaving her spouse, and thus it is not a waste of their time to pursue her. Your situation is worse than I thought, as she may not even care much about trying to save the marriage.


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## Marc878

bremik said:


> It is ironic you mentioned this because it came across my mind this morning. That guy was the same guy who's dad was telling everyone my wife was leaving me for his son. He was a complete idiot one of those types that everybody let hang around them because he would always do something so stupid it was funny but at times you would just roll your eyes at him.
> 
> A whole group my wife's friends- which included jay and this guy mike- and her and I went up to jay's hometown which was about 2 hrs from home. Basically just went out to bars. Mike was very drunk and being typical very stupid. My wife and I were sitting up at the bar with jay and some others. Mike came up out of nowhere and did that. My wife had nothing to do with instigating it and did try to push him back. For whatever reason I had 2 thoughts as I was holding back punching him- 1) how will we get home if I start a fight and 2) I was honestly afraid I would kill him I was so angry. Another irony is jay himself apologized for mike being stupid


IMO there are things in life you don't allow without consequences. It sets a tone for who you are. 

Walking home is good exercise


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## phillybeffandswiss

She is an adult therefore she is being a monster. A child is just learning how to manipulate and your wife is LONG past this, even is she was coddled as a child. Sorry, if anyone is the child in this scenario it is you. You seek her approval and just want her to be happy. This is why children love their abusive and rapist parents, their love is unconditional. They constantly look for ways to excuse, condone and forgive the monsters in their lives. No, she is not a child at all.


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## NoChoice

bremik said:


> That is exactly my feeling and also why I feel it messes with my mind so badly. I was going to write this morning that I compare our relationship to that of a parent and drug addict child of whatever age. As a parent no matter how much they steal from you or even maybe have physically harmed you , you still love that child with all your heart. You may cry and feel horrible when you call the police to turn them in because it is what they need but you STILL love them and must move forward.
> 
> It is obvious that discipline lacks in my wife's personal relationship and financial management. The same logic applies of how do you talk to jay still after all this and how do you write a check for something when you are told or have seen the money isn't in the account to cover it? Absolutely horrible action/consequence thought processing.


It is for this very reason that change is so difficult. What you plainly see as problematic, she does not and therefore sees no real reason to change. Children must be shown each thing that is wrong whereas adults can extrapolate and apply "wrong" to many different scenarios and circumstances. She lacks this ability and although it is possible that she will mature further it will be minimally, is highly unlikely and may take years to decades to occur. It is regrettable.


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## Bremik

TRy said:


> Your wife did instigate it, but just not then. She instigated it by having a relationship with Mike that allowed Mike's dad to be "telling everyone" that your "wife was leaving" you for Mike. Mike's dad saying something like that does not happen in a vacuum. It is based on her actual inappropriate interactions with Mike and how others understand what your wife feels about her relationship with you. The humping her leg was Mike showing everyone including you who she and Mike were to each other.
> 
> Bremik, I got to tell you man, other's talking about her leaving you for Mike, and Mike humping her leg in front of you are each on their own outrageous, but together show how your wife is perceived by her coworkers. That perception is all on your wife. It is based on her actions and how she wants to be perceived. Cheaters typically want other men to feel that she is already planning on leaving her spouse, and thus it is not a waste of their time to pursue her. Your situation is worse than I thought, as she may not even care much about trying to save the marriage.


I understand what you are saying. Mike was and still is an idiot and never has been a concern of mine. I can't argue that he was acting out based on how my wife may have been with jay though


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## lucy999

Keep looking for lawyers. The more I hear about your W, the more I'm gobsmacked at her behavior and your nonaction. I can see you're waking up though. 

Forge ahead!! And ignore her tears. She's not crying for the potential loss of your marriage; shes crying for the potential loss of her decades of oh so delicious cake. Trust that.


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## Bremik

nochoice said:


> it is for this very reason that change is so difficult. What you plainly see as problematic, she does not and therefore sees no real reason to change. Children must be shown each thing that is wrong whereas adults can extrapolate and apply "wrong" to many different scenarios and circumstances. She lacks this ability and although it is possible that she will mature further it will be minimally, is highly unlikely and may take years to decades to occur. It is regrettable.


a resounding yes to that whole thought!!!!!!!!!


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## Bremik

lucy999 said:


> Keep looking for lawyers. The more I hear about your W, the more I'm gobsmacked at her behavior and your nonaction. I can see you're waking up though.
> 
> Forge ahead!! And ignore her tears. She's not crying for the potential loss of your marriage; shes crying for the potential loss of her decades of oh so delicious cake. Trust that.


I am sticking to the plan. Thanks for staying involved in this!


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## 3Xnocharm

bremik said:


> I am trying very hard. Not saying it is easy because it is not. That's why I started looking for lawyers yesterday so I can keep moving forward. And that is why I keep checking in here. The single thought *I keep in my head saying over and over is "she kept choosing jay". All the different scenarios jay has been in she ultimately somehow chose him first over me.* She has said "but I married you" and my response has been that's because you didn't know jay before we got married. Now my response will still be the same but will now add "but once you met him you kept choosing him over me"


Good, add to that thought *"FOR NINE YEARS!!" *This is insanity, even ONE year or one MONTH of this going on is not acceptable, but NINE years? I'm glad she doesnt know the proof you have, because then she just keeps lying, which helps keep you moving away from her


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## Bibi1031

NoChoice;17669665 She lacks this ability and although it is possible that she will mature further [B said:


> it will be minimally[/B], is highly unlikely and may take years to decades to occur



Her growth could have been stunted through alcohol use as well. How young did she start drinking @bremik? How often does she drink? 


This is what happens to kids that become alcoholics when they are very young. If they started drinking heavily in let's say around 12, that is where their mentality gets stunted. If in their early teens, that is where they mentality stunts as well. I learned that when I had to send my 17 year old son to rehab for drug use. They were all teens in the place where he chose to go. Most were heavy drinkers by about age 12. I was dumb founded with that tidbit.:surprise:


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## sokillme

bremik said:


> That is exactly my feeling and also why I feel it messes with my mind so badly. I was going to write this morning that I compare our relationship to that of a parent and drug addict child of whatever age. As a parent no matter how much they steal from you or even maybe have physically harmed you , you still love that child with all your heart. You may cry and feel horrible when you call the police to turn them in because it is what they need but you STILL love them and must move forward.
> 
> It is obvious that discipline lacks in my wife's personal relationship and financial management. The same logic applies of how do you talk to jay still after all this and how do you write a check for something when you are told or have seen the money isn't in the account to cover it? Absolutely horrible action/consequence thought processing.


You are NOT her parent, you are not responsible to live her life for her. What you describe is not what a marriage is suppose to be. She had parents. You are her husband and it's inappropriate for you to take on any other role then that. You are not her psychiatrist or her bank, frankly you are not in any position to be those things at least effectively. Also she married you presumably to be a husband. She now sees you as a parent. That changes your relationship in a very bad way. 

What you are is classically codependent. It's ruining your life and your family. It's not healthy. It's not even healthy for your wife. She needs consequences, she needs to face life as an adult, not a child. You are the guy in a boat that is sinking who keeps trying to bail out even though you are going to drown. You have a life boat right there. It's time to get into the boat already.


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## Bremik

Bibi1031 said:


> Her growth could have been stunted through alcohol use as well. How young did she start drinking @bremik? How often does she drink?
> 
> 
> This is what happens to kids that become alcoholics when they are very young. If they started drinking heavily in let's say around 12, that is where their mentality gets stunted. If in their early teens, that is where they mentality stunts as well. I learned that when I had to send my 17 year old son to rehab for drug use. They were all teens in the place where he chose to go. Most were heavy drinkers by about age 12. I was dumb founded with that tidbit.:surprise:


She never drank until college. Her family never had any alcohol in the house. She only drinks casually now. I consider jay a drunk and that is who she hung with in college on nights out with friends. I just worried because she seemed out of control in general. Not to make excuses but there is a reason WI has a lot of breweries in it!


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## Bibi1031

sokillme said:


> You are NOT her parent, you are not responsible to live her life for her. What you describe is not what a marriage is suppose to be. She had parents. You are her husband and it's inappropriate for you to take on any other role then that. You are not her psychiatrist or her bank, frankly you are not in any position to be those things at least effectively. Also she married you presumably to be a husband. She now sees you as a parent. That changes your relationship in a very bad way.
> 
> What you are is classically codependent. It's ruining your life and your family. It's not healthy. It's not even healthy for your wife. She needs consequences, she needs to face life as an adult, not a child. You are the guy in a boat that is sinking who keeps trying to bail out even though you are going to drown. You have a life boat right there. It's time to get into the boat already.


I agree with a lot of what this poster states. I am living it with my daughter and her spouse. I admit I am selfish because I hope and pray that he stays love struck and naive until my grand daughters are at least 16 and can choose to live with dad and dump mom altogether if she steps outside of the marriage again. 

You are hindering her recovery if there was ever a chance of that with your wife. Hitting rock bottom by losing everything is her only hope of seeking professional help. You have enabled her for way too long and have caused damage to the whole family including your kids. 

How do they behave? How do they interact with a significant other? They are older now and you must let your wife go. You can't help her. You made her reckless shenanigans worse because you never learned proper boundaries to stop this mess from snowballing into what it has become now. Stop the abusive cycle and get you and your kids out. 

Allow her to flounder and seek guidance from professionals that can help her. This is beyone you and your so called love of her. We learn from our mistakes. Watch your kids like a hawk because it is them you should love and treat like you have been treating your wife. That was not ever supposed to be your job!


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## sokillme

Bibi1031 said:


> I agree with a lot of what this poster states. I am living it with my daughter and her spouse. I admit I am selfish because I hope and pray that he stays love struck and naive until my grand daughters are at least 16 and can choose to live with dad and dump mom altogether if she steps outside of the marriage again.
> 
> You are hindering her recovery if there was ever a chance of that with your wife. Hitting rock bottom by losing everything is her only hope of seeking professional help. You have enabled her for way too long and have caused damage to the whole family including your kids.
> 
> How do they behave? How do they interact with a significant other? They are older now and you must let your wife go. You can't help her. You made her reckless shenanigans worse because you never learned proper boundaries to stop this mess from snowballing into what it has become now. Stop the abusive cycle and get you and your kids out.
> 
> Allow her to flounder and seek guidance from professionals that can help her. This is beyone you and your so called love of her. We learn from our mistakes. Watch your kids like a hawk because it is them you should love and treat like you have been treating your wife. That was not ever supposed to be your job!


OP read this.


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## Affaircare

bremik said:


> The sleeping in separate rooms, no kisses, no I love you's, no sex seem to be doing something. I am maintaining normal activity otherwise and there is no mean spirit anywhere. Might not be huge steps but seems to be working.
> 
> I emailed 4 lawyers yesterday in the hopes of getting an initial consultation by Tue of next week. Like I have said before trying to keep moving forward no matter how heavy the steps. Trying to focus on this weekend as I am anticipating it will be the hardest


Hi @bremik, 

First I want to congratulate you for actually doing something!! Believe it or not, a large majority of the time betrayed spouses are afraid to take any action because they don't want to "rock the boat" and they don't want to make their disloyal spouse angry! I know you've "been there, done that" so the fact that you've actually done an action by emailing four lawyers is real progress. 

Now, you mention that you are trying to focus on this weekend as you are anticipating it will be the hardest. I agree. This is the weekend you are a little weakened due to having gone several days in a row without sex, and she will very likely try to take advantage of that weakness by turning on the waterworks and trying to initiate sex. In the past, this has worked for her--cry and he has a soft heart...give him sex and he caves. 

So starting today, every time she tries to talk to you or cries or tries to initiate sex, I want you to memorize this line (shortened from what @TRy suggested):

*"Honey, I am aware of much more about your 20 years of unfaithful behavior with Jay, Mike, and Adam than you will ever know because I am not going to tell you all that I know. But I will tell you that I know for a fact that you have not been honest with me about any of it. Despite giving you chance after chance to end all contact and be faithful to our marriage, you have consistently chosen to lie and purposefully cover up, and this time I am done. I have contacted divorce lawyers and am scheduling an appointment for next week."*

Seriously--memorize this. Be able to say this exact phrase EVERY SINGLE TIME she cries, EVERY SINGLE TIME she tries to tempt you with sex, every single time she does anything to try to engage you, hook you, and re-engage you. 

She will likely do one of two things: either she will cry more...or she will get angry. Both options have the same goal: to try to get you "back into the old dance steps" so she can go back to the way it was where @bremik pays the bills and does the responsible stuff...and she has "fun" with all the boys in her life. If you are determined to not go back to that life, you will have to recognize that crying and anger are an attempt to manipulate you rather than thinking they are "sincere sorrow". 

Now @bremik at times this may feel "mean" to you, and that's because of two things: 1) You are used to "dance steps" where you are used to "being nice." Now being nice is not wrong or bad--it's just not serving you in this instance! Right now it will feel "unnatural" because what you are used to unhealthy "dance steps" and you are taking newer, healthier "dance steps." Okay? 2) You have not held her personally responsible for her choices like any other adult, and thus you are "used to" giving in and taking responsibility for fixing her messes. Again it may feel "mean" and she may even say you're being mean because you are actually ALLOWING her to experience the natural results of her choices. She just does not like those results--they hurt! Well...every choice has a cost and a benefit, right? She got the benefit (lots of attention and sneaking)...now it's time to pay the cost. 

I would like to conclude by describing for you what TRUE REPENTANCE looks like. See, I believe she feels remorse or regret right now, and remorse means that she is 'sorry' for the pain she feels. She is 'sorry' she did it because she got caught and that hurt. But TRUE REPENTANCE is not like remorse or regret. REPENTANCE means that the person did wrong and within themselves they want to change. So a truly repentant person will STOP doing the wrong thing RIGHT AWAY and put some things in place to avoid doing it again. But not only do they "stop the wrong thing" but they also START DOING the opposite good thing that they had stopped doing! 

For example, a truly repentant person in your wife's situation would immediately hand over their phone, because the wrong they've been doing is involved with hiding things on the phone. They might change their phone number, and yes that's a pain but that's the price of using a phone inappropriately. Now in your wife's case, she already changed her number and she gave it to the folks she was supposed to be avoiding! So see how that's not true repentance? A truly repentant person who had been lying and hiding would set up some things ON THEIR OWN (without prompting from you) to be open and share everything...because the idea is to be transparent and allow your spouse to see the REAL YOU. So you let them see your email, your messaging, your social media, all chats, all EVERYTHING. That's why I don't PM is because if you can''t say it to me in public, then I don't want to do it in secret! EVERYTHING should be honest and my Dear Hubby should be able to see every single word I write--NOTHING is kept from him and he can absolutely see anything any time he wants. 

A truly repentant person also looks in the mirror and does not blameshift or deflect. Instead of hearing "I did this because you didn't pay attention to me!" you would hear "I did this because I had an unhealthy need for validation and I looked in the wrong places. I justified doing wrong and crossed a thousand little lines until I was committing adultery." See that is personal responsibility, and when someone is PERSONALLY responsible, they take the burden of the costs and benefits of their choices. When someone deflects (like you bring up her lying and she flies back with "Well you lie too! How about when you ____?" attempting to turn the focus from her lie to something in the past) or when someone blameshifts ("I only did this because you did that") they aren't looking at themselves. In addition, when someone is truly repentant and they want it deep inside, THEY will figure out how to find a counselor, and THEY will figure out how to get to IC every week without being reminded, and THEY will do the work and read books and then try living in a different way! If they were a liar before, they will learn about being honest, read about it in books, and then DO something open and honest in their marriage such as saying what they honestly think when they are afraid to speak up. When someone is honest when it's scary--that's someone who is an honest person! When someone is open and allows you to see them when they aren't at their best--maybe allows you to see them "worts and all" when they are feeling less-than-lovely--that's someone who has the ability to be open and let others in. 

Okay? I hope that helps. If your wife were being TRULY REPENTANT I think the first thing she would have done is hand the darn phone straight to you. Then she'd make a list of all her passwords and say @bremik, I blew it. It was me! I chose to be a liar and now I need to live with the cost of my choice. But I want you to know I'm an open book and you can look at anything you want--all of it--for as long as you want. Some of what you find is going to really hurt you and I'm very afraid but I'm done lying. "


----------



## Bremik

Bibi1031 said:


> I agree with a lot of what this poster states. I am living it with my daughter and her spouse. I admit I am selfish because I hope and pray that he stays love struck and naive until my grand daughters are at least 16 and can choose to live with dad and dump mom altogether if she steps outside of the marriage again.
> 
> You are hindering her recovery if there was ever a chance of that with your wife. Hitting rock bottom by losing everything is her only hope of seeking professional help. You have enabled her for way too long and have caused damage to the whole family including your kids.
> 
> How do they behave? How do they interact with a significant other? They are older now and you must let your wife go. You can't help her. You made her reckless shenanigans worse because you never learned proper boundaries to stop this mess from snowballing into what it has become now. Stop the abusive cycle and get you and your kids out.
> 
> Allow her to flounder and seek guidance from professionals that can help her. This is beyone you and your so called love of her. We learn from our mistakes. Watch your kids like a hawk because it is them you should love and treat like you have been treating your wife. That was not ever supposed to be your job!


Thanks for posting! I really don't think the children have been hurt. They have done well in school and very socially active. Oldest has gone on to college and done well. Next one getting ready to go to college this fall quite possibly out of state so they don't seem scared to push their boundaries. I still think my wife has been a good mom to them and believe it or not I am the enforcer with the children- for some reason THAT I can do!


----------



## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> Hi @bremik,
> 
> First I want to congratulate you for actually doing something!! Believe it or not, a large majority of the time betrayed spouses are afraid to take any action because they don't want to "rock the boat" and they don't want to make their disloyal spouse angry! I know you've "been there, done that" so the fact that you've actually done an action by emailing four lawyers is real progress.
> 
> Now, you mention that you are trying to focus on this weekend as you are anticipating it will be the hardest. I agree. This is the weekend you are a little weakened due to having gone several days in a row without sex, and she will very likely try to take advantage of that weakness by turning on the waterworks and trying to initiate sex. In the past, this has worked for her--cry and he has a soft heart...give him sex and he caves.
> 
> So starting today, every time she tries to talk to you or cries or tries to initiate sex, I want you to memorize this line (shortened from what @TRy suggested):
> 
> *"Honey, I am aware of much more about your 20 years of unfaithful behavior with Jay, Mike, and Adam than you will ever know because I am not going to tell you all that I know. But I will tell you that I know for a fact that you have not been honest with me about any of it. Despite giving you chance after chance to end all contact and be faithful to our marriage, you have consistently chosen to lie and purposefully cover up, and this time I am done. I have contacted divorce lawyers and am scheduling an appointment for next week."*
> 
> Seriously--memorize this. Be able to say this exact phrase EVERY SINGLE TIME she cries, EVERY SINGLE TIME she tries to tempt you with sex, every single time she does anything to try to engage you, hook you, and re-engage you.
> 
> She will likely do one of two things: either she will cry more...or she will get angry. Both options have the same goal: to try to get you "back into the old dance steps" so she can go back to the way it was where @bremik pays the bills and does the responsible stuff...and she has "fun" with all the boys in her life. If you are determined to not go back to that life, you will have to recognize that crying and anger are an attempt to manipulate you rather than thinking they are "sincere sorrow".
> 
> Now @bremik at times this may feel "mean" to you, and that's because of two things: 1) You are used to "dance steps" where you are used to "being nice." Now being nice is not wrong or bad--it's just not serving you in this instance! Right now it will feel "unnatural" because what you are used to unhealthy "dance steps" and you are taking newer, healthier "dance steps." Okay? 2) You have not held her personally responsible for her choices like any other adult, and thus you are "used to" giving in and taking responsibility for fixing her messes. Again it may feel "mean" and she may even say you're being mean because you are actually ALLOWING her to experience the natural results of her choices. She just does not like those results--they hurt! Well...every choice has a cost and a benefit, right? She got the benefit (lots of attention and sneaking)...now it's time to pay the cost.
> 
> I would like to conclude by describing for you what TRUE REPENTANCE looks like. See, I believe she feels remorse or regret right now, and remorse means that she is 'sorry' for the pain she feels. She is 'sorry' she did it because she got caught and that hurt. But TRUE REPENTANCE is not like remorse or regret. REPENTANCE means that the person did wrong and within themselves they want to change. So a truly repentant person will STOP doing the wrong thing RIGHT AWAY and put some things in place to avoid doing it again. But not only do they "stop the wrong thing" but they also START DOING the opposite good thing that they had stopped doing!
> 
> For example, a truly repentant person in your wife's situation would immediately hand over their phone, because the wrong they've been doing is involved with hiding things on the phone. They might change their phone number, and yes that's a pain but that's the price of using a phone inappropriately. Now in your wife's case, she already changed her number and she gave it to the folks she was supposed to be avoiding! So see how that's not true repentance? A truly repentant person who had been lying and hiding would set up some things ON THEIR OWN (without prompting from you) to be open and share everything...because the idea is to be transparent and allow your spouse to see the REAL YOU. So you let them see your email, your messaging, your social media, all chats, all EVERYTHING. That's why I don't PM is because if you can''t say it to me in public, then I don't want to do it in secret! EVERYTHING should be honest and my Dear Hubby should be able to see every single word I write--NOTHING is kept from him and he can absolutely see anything any time he wants.
> 
> A truly repentant person also looks in the mirror and does not blameshift or deflect. Instead of hearing "I did this because you didn't pay attention to me!" you would hear "I did this because I had an unhealthy need for validation and I looked in the wrong places. I justified doing wrong and crossed a thousand little lines until I was committing adultery." See that is personal responsibility, and when someone is PERSONALLY responsible, they take the burden of the costs and benefits of their choices. When someone deflects (like you bring up her lying and she flies back with "Well you lie too! How about when you ____?" attempting to turn the focus from her lie to something in the past) or when someone blameshifts ("I only did this because you did that") they aren't looking at themselves. In addition, when someone is truly repentant and they want it deep inside, THEY will figure out how to find a counselor, and THEY will figure out how to get to IC every week without being reminded, and THEY will do the work and read books and then try living in a different way! If they were a liar before, they will learn about being honest, read about it in books, and then DO something open and honest in their marriage such as saying what they honestly think when they are afraid to speak up. When someone is honest when it's scary--that's someone who is an honest person! When someone is open and allows you to see them when they aren't at their best--maybe allows you to see them "worts and all" when they are feeling less-than-lovely--that's someone who has the ability to be open and let others in.
> 
> Okay? I hope that helps. If your wife were being TRULY REPENTANT I think the first thing she would have done is hand the darn phone straight to you. Then she'd make a list of all her passwords and say @bremik, I blew it. It was me! I chose to be a liar and now I need to live with the cost of my choice. But I want you to know I'm an open book and you can look at anything you want--all of it--for as long as you want. Some of what you find is going to really hurt you and I'm very afraid but I'm done lying. "


Truly repentant people look like @Affaircare who posts on this site to help people to try to make some good out of bad. If your wife were to do something like that. Where the change has become a part of the mission of her life I would say, you have a chance. But even still you need to change because you are 50% of the dysfunctional dynamic. 

That story I wrote was tongue and cheek but the underlying theme of (you are never going to have healthy relationship with anyone unless you fix yourself) is completely true.


----------



## Bremik

Affaircare said:


> Hi @bremik,
> 
> First I want to congratulate you for actually doing something!! Believe it or not, a large majority of the time betrayed spouses are afraid to take any action because they don't want to "rock the boat" and they don't want to make their disloyal spouse angry! I know you've "been there, done that" so the fact that you've actually done an action by emailing four lawyers is real progress.
> 
> Now, you mention that you are trying to focus on this weekend as you are anticipating it will be the hardest. I agree. This is the weekend you are a little weakened due to having gone several days in a row without sex, and she will very likely try to take advantage of that weakness by turning on the waterworks and trying to initiate sex. In the past, this has worked for her--cry and he has a soft heart...give him sex and he caves.
> 
> So starting today, every time she tries to talk to you or cries or tries to initiate sex, I want you to memorize this line (shortened from what @TRy suggested):
> 
> *"Honey, I am aware of much more about your 20 years of unfaithful behavior with Jay, Mike, and Adam than you will ever know because I am not going to tell you all that I know. But I will tell you that I know for a fact that you have not been honest with me about any of it. Despite giving you chance after chance to end all contact and be faithful to our marriage, you have consistently chosen to lie and purposefully cover up, and this time I am done. I have contacted divorce lawyers and am scheduling an appointment for next week."*
> 
> Seriously--memorize this. Be able to say this exact phrase EVERY SINGLE TIME she cries, EVERY SINGLE TIME she tries to tempt you with sex, every single time she does anything to try to engage you, hook you, and re-engage you.
> 
> She will likely do one of two things: either she will cry more...or she will get angry. Both options have the same goal: to try to get you "back into the old dance steps" so she can go back to the way it was where @bremik pays the bills and does the responsible stuff...and she has "fun" with all the boys in her life. If you are determined to not go back to that life, you will have to recognize that crying and anger are an attempt to manipulate you rather than thinking they are "sincere sorrow".
> 
> Now @bremik at times this may feel "mean" to you, and that's because of two things: 1) You are used to "dance steps" where you are used to "being nice." Now being nice is not wrong or bad--it's just not serving you in this instance! Right now it will feel "unnatural" because what you are used to unhealthy "dance steps" and you are taking newer, healthier "dance steps." Okay? 2) You have not held her personally responsible for her choices like any other adult, and thus you are "used to" giving in and taking responsibility for fixing her messes. Again it may feel "mean" and she may even say you're being mean because you are actually ALLOWING her to experience the natural results of her choices. She just does not like those results--they hurt! Well...every choice has a cost and a benefit, right? She got the benefit (lots of attention and sneaking)...now it's time to pay the cost.
> 
> I would like to conclude by describing for you what TRUE REPENTANCE looks like. See, I believe she feels remorse or regret right now, and remorse means that she is 'sorry' for the pain she feels. She is 'sorry' she did it because she got caught and that hurt. But TRUE REPENTANCE is not like remorse or regret. REPENTANCE means that the person did wrong and within themselves they want to change. So a truly repentant person will STOP doing the wrong thing RIGHT AWAY and put some things in place to avoid doing it again. But not only do they "stop the wrong thing" but they also START DOING the opposite good thing that they had stopped doing!
> 
> For example, a truly repentant person in your wife's situation would immediately hand over their phone, because the wrong they've been doing is involved with hiding things on the phone. They might change their phone number, and yes that's a pain but that's the price of using a phone inappropriately. Now in your wife's case, she already changed her number and she gave it to the folks she was supposed to be avoiding! So see how that's not true repentance? A truly repentant person who had been lying and hiding would set up some things ON THEIR OWN (without prompting from you) to be open and share everything...because the idea is to be transparent and allow your spouse to see the REAL YOU. So you let them see your email, your messaging, your social media, all chats, all EVERYTHING. That's why I don't PM is because if you can''t say it to me in public, then I don't want to do it in secret! EVERYTHING should be honest and my Dear Hubby should be able to see every single word I write--NOTHING is kept from him and he can absolutely see anything any time he wants.
> 
> A truly repentant person also looks in the mirror and does not blameshift or deflect. Instead of hearing "I did this because you didn't pay attention to me!" you would hear "I did this because I had an unhealthy need for validation and I looked in the wrong places. I justified doing wrong and crossed a thousand little lines until I was committing adultery." See that is personal responsibility, and when someone is PERSONALLY responsible, they take the burden of the costs and benefits of their choices. When someone deflects (like you bring up her lying and she flies back with "Well you lie too! How about when you ____?" attempting to turn the focus from her lie to something in the past) or when someone blameshifts ("I only did this because you did that") they aren't looking at themselves. In addition, when someone is truly repentant and they want it deep inside, THEY will figure out how to find a counselor, and THEY will figure out how to get to IC every week without being reminded, and THEY will do the work and read books and then try living in a different way! If they were a liar before, they will learn about being honest, read about it in books, and then DO something open and honest in their marriage such as saying what they honestly think when they are afraid to speak up. When someone is honest when it's scary--that's someone who is an honest person! When someone is open and allows you to see them when they aren't at their best--maybe allows you to see them "worts and all" when they are feeling less-than-lovely--that's someone who has the ability to be open and let others in.
> 
> Okay? I hope that helps. If your wife were being TRULY REPENTANT I think the first thing she would have done is hand the darn phone straight to you. Then she'd make a list of all her passwords and say @bremik, I blew it. It was me! I chose to be a liar and now I need to live with the cost of my choice. But I want you to know I'm an open book and you can look at anything you want--all of it--for as long as you want. Some of what you find is going to really hurt you and I'm very afraid but I'm done lying. "


So you want me to tell her at this time I am looking for a lawyer? One thing about my wife's family is they avoid conflict like the plague- how do I determine if that is what my wife is doing? Or would you say that is still part of her learning behavior change?


----------



## Bremik

sokillme said:


> OP read this.


There is truth in that article. I do feel like I was spending time trying to figure out what my wife was doing instead of spending it with my children especially when she was traveling for work


----------



## Affaircare

bremik said:


> So you want me to tell her at this time I am looking for a lawyer? One thing about my wife's family is they avoid conflict like the plague- how do I determine if that is what my wife is doing? Or would you say that is still part of her learning behavior change?


 @bremik, 

You are an adult and I would not presume to "tell you" what to do. Feel free to modify that phrase in any way that fits you. The important part is to memorize it and say it over and over and over again. 

For people who "just found out" about their spouse's affair, who are hoping to bust up the affair and save their marriage, I often tell them to end all contact with their disloyal spouse--don't engage in text "wars" or trying to talk to them because they are not thinking straight (like an addict--messed up). When their spouse tries to contact them, I recommend they say the same phrase over and over again: "Are you ready to end your affair and dedicate 100% of your affection, loyalty and companionship to me? Oh you're not? Okay I'm hanging up then, goodbye (click)." 

The reason you say it over and over and over again is because EVENTUALLY the disloyal spouse will say something like "You mean you would talk to me if I gave up my affair and did all that?" Their actions teach (if you will) the disloyal spouse that while they are committing adultery that equals NO ACCESS TO ME. But saying the phrase over and over also "teaches" the disloyal that there is a way back--they just may not hear it or like it! 


I want to apply a similar (though slightly different) technique with you. You have said you choose to remove the Jay cancer from YOUR life...not hers, YOURS. So if you'd rather say

*"Honey, I am aware of much more about your 20 years of unfaithful behavior with Jay, Mike, and Adam than you will ever know because I am not going to tell you all that I know. But I will tell you that I know for a fact that you have not been honest with me about any of it, and this time I am done. Stop trying to manipulate me." *

...that would also work. You are naming it. Calling her out on it. Letting her know that you know she isn't truly repentant. But it still gives you some leverage with the attorney thing. 

And remember, do not see an attorney as an attempt to manipulate her and "make her" give up Jay. If she wants to live that life LET HER. You can only choose for YOUR LIFE, and you choose to remove the Jay and Gang cancer from YOUR LIFE. She can do whatever she wants!!


----------



## sokillme

bremik said:


> There is truth in that article. I do feel like I was spending time trying to figure out what my wife was doing instead of spending it with my children especially when she was traveling for work


I'm telling you make that second possible future I wrote about your own and you will not believe how much better your life will be. You have no frame of reference to know how little you are accepting in a spouse and in life in general. It will make a profound difference in your life and happiness when you have a reliable partner who loves you, cherishes you and is your teammate and not a rebellious bad seed. I can not impress this upon you any stronger. 

Buy that book, read it, see if it speaks to you. If it does go get some help, and then when you are truly healed see how much better your life is. How much easier it is. Who you end up with and how that changes your life for the better. 

You have settled to live in a the dark for a long time. There is a whole world of color out there.


----------



## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> @bremik,
> 
> You are an adult and I would not presume to "tell you" what to do. Feel free to modify that phrase in any way that fits you. The important part is to memorize it and say it over and over and over again.
> 
> For people who "just found out" about their spouse's affair, who are hoping to bust up the affair and save their marriage, I often tell them to end all contact with their disloyal spouse--don't engage in text "wars" or trying to talk to them because they are not thinking straight (like an addict--messed up). When their spouse tries to contact them, I recommend they say the same phrase over and over again: "Are you ready to end your affair and dedicate 100% of your affection, loyalty and companionship to me? Oh you're not? Okay I'm hanging up then, goodbye (click)."
> 
> The reason you say it over and over and over again is because EVENTUALLY the disloyal spouse will say something like "You mean you would talk to me if I gave up my affair and did all that?" Their actions teach (if you will) the disloyal spouse that while they are committing adultery that equals NO ACCESS TO ME. But saying the phrase over and over also "teaches" the disloyal that there is a way back--they just may not hear it or like it!
> 
> 
> I want to apply a similar (though slightly different) technique with you. You have said you choose to remove the Jay cancer from YOUR life...not hers, YOURS. So if you'd rather say
> 
> *"Honey, I am aware of much more about your 20 years of unfaithful behavior with Jay, Mike, and Adam than you will ever know because I am not going to tell you all that I know. But I will tell you that I know for a fact that you have not been honest with me about any of it, and this time I am done. Stop trying to manipulate me." *
> 
> ...that would also work. You are naming it. Calling her out on it. Letting her know that you know she isn't truly repentant. But it still gives you some leverage with the attorney thing.
> 
> And remember, do not see an attorney as an attempt to manipulate her and "make her" give up Jay. If she wants to live that life LET HER. You can only choose for YOUR LIFE, and you choose to remove the Jay and Gang cancer from YOUR LIFE. She can do whatever she wants!!


or 

*"Honey, I just don't care anymore. I am done goodbye and good luck" *

Unless your wife spends the rest of her life working to change herself she is never going to be a healthy partner, and she doesn't even think she has a problem.


----------



## Bremik

Affaircare said:


> @bremik,
> 
> You are an adult and I would not presume to "tell you" what to do. Feel free to modify that phrase in any way that fits you. The important part is to memorize it and say it over and over and over again.
> 
> For people who "just found out" about their spouse's affair, who are hoping to bust up the affair and save their marriage, I often tell them to end all contact with their disloyal spouse--don't engage in text "wars" or trying to talk to them because they are not thinking straight (like an addict--messed up). When their spouse tries to contact them, I recommend they say the same phrase over and over again: "Are you ready to end your affair and dedicate 100% of your affection, loyalty and companionship to me? Oh you're not? Okay I'm hanging up then, goodbye (click)."
> 
> The reason you say it over and over and over again is because EVENTUALLY the disloyal spouse will say something like "You mean you would talk to me if I gave up my affair and did all that?" Their actions teach (if you will) the disloyal spouse that while they are committing adultery that equals NO ACCESS TO ME. But saying the phrase over and over also "teaches" the disloyal that there is a way back--they just may not hear it or like it!
> 
> 
> I want to apply a similar (though slightly different) technique with you. You have said you choose to remove the Jay cancer from YOUR life...not hers, YOURS. So if you'd rather say
> 
> *"Honey, I am aware of much more about your 20 years of unfaithful behavior with Jay, Mike, and Adam than you will ever know because I am not going to tell you all that I know. But I will tell you that I know for a fact that you have not been honest with me about any of it, and this time I am done. Stop trying to manipulate me." *
> 
> ...that would also work. You are naming it. Calling her out on it. Letting her know that you know she isn't truly repentant. But it still gives you some leverage with the attorney thing.
> 
> And remember, do not see an attorney as an attempt to manipulate her and "make her" give up Jay. If she wants to live that life LET HER. You can only choose for YOUR LIFE, and you choose to remove the Jay and Gang cancer from YOUR LIFE. She can do whatever she wants!!


I think I understand and will work on this. I did tell her this morning as I was getting the sad look that I was sorry but I don't want jay in my life anymore


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> I understand what you are saying. Mike was and still is an idiot and never has been a concern of mine. I can't argue that he was acting out based on how my wife may have been with jay though


 Mike or Jay it does not really matter. The real issue is how your wife wanted her marriage to you to be perceived by her coworkers, and how she is viewed as available and not in a relationship with you that they needed to take seriously. If you read other threads in the Infidelity section of this site, you will see just how common it is for cheaters to tell their coworkers that they will be divorcing their spouse just as soon as a certain situation allows, with that situation often being financial or when the youngest turns 18. Jay is that toxic person that not only uses her for his fun, but that also encourages her to have fun with his friends; that 2 am voicemail where Jay told your wife that "she should get it on with another co-worker and how lucky that guy was" is a case in point in how he talks this way with your wife. As I have said before, none of this happens in a vacuum. Put together incidents such as this have been telling you a clear and consistent story of who your wife is. The level of disrespect that she allows these other men to show toward you, is one of the worst that I have ever seen on this site.


----------



## TRy

.


----------



## drifting on

bremik said:


> I think I understand and will work on this. I did tell her this morning as I was getting the sad look that I was sorry but I don't want jay in my life anymore




Bremik

I hate to say this but, perhaps you should have told her to give that look to Jay. Tell her that anyone who spoke poorly of you, you would eliminate the person for disrespecting you and the marriage. Tell her this has been a problem, for years, and her unable to comprehend what a fifth grader would, you are now done with the marriage. Tell her that her obvious choice is for Jay to be her interest you are going to let her go to be with him. Then leave and expose to her family, friends, work, wives of all three. 

Watch her reaction, watch as she immediately begins damage control. I'm sorry Bremik, you just aren't the person who her heart wants to be with. That's very difficult for me to tell you.


----------



## Bibi1031

bremik said:


> Thanks for posting! I really don't think the children have been hurt. They have done well in school and very socially active. Oldest has gone on to college and done well. Next one getting ready to go to college this fall quite possibly out of state so they don't seem scared to push their boundaries. I still think my wife has been a good mom to them and believe it or not I am the enforcer with the children- for some reason THAT I can do!


First of all, let me tell you that I am not posting this to hurt you or make you feel guilty or any of those feelings that don't help one bit. I lived through something similar with my sick (in both health-wise and twisted type of sick) spouses. I didn't realize the extent of the damage to my children until after my daughter cheated on her husband for 1.5 years with a narcissistic sicko when my first grand daughter was a couple of months old. 


My marriage to her dad was dysfunctional, but I was so ignorant then and that should never happen when you are responsible for the upbringing of children. Shame of me for that, it's a darn poor excuse but sadly it's true. Her father was a terrible partner, but a great provider and dad, so I settled with this fate. I was replaced by my kids, and all my then husband's attention went to the kids and work. I was given crumbs to appease me and I settled for that (mostly in the form of sex). Again, shame on me for not fighting for more than the misery of affection and attention I was getting. Sadly, we show people how to treat us @bremik.

With that said, when the kids grew up (and he was in midlife), my spouse replaced both me and the kids with an AP. My daughter was 16 when this happened and our son was 11. It really messed my kids up. My daughter was doing great while she was at home. Once she went to college and was truly on her own, she came unglued. She went looking for daddy in her choice of boyfriends. The first serious relationship she had that became physical was with a guy only a couple of years younger than me. My kid was barely 17 when she started dating him, he was 33 (I was 38 at that time)!

He was an abusive creep that only dated young, naive girls that didn't know better. He had ED issues and blamed his lack of erections on his girlfriends. Very sick indeed. He finally dumped her because she of course was responsible for his limp ****. She was madly in love with him (gag me) and was devastated for a long time until therapy finally did it's thing and cured the damage done. She went through a string of low life boyfriends for her first 2 years in college until she finally opened up to me that she simply couldn't cope with relationship issues, school and being away from home. She was on academic probation because she couldn't maintain a 3.5 GP average. My kid never made lower than a A her whole life! Her GPA was always a perfect 4.0 until her fourth semester. It dropped to a 3.2 and her scholarships would be taken away if she didn't bring that GPA up. She earned a full scholarship to nursing school, well to medical school, but she couldn't cope and dropped medicine after only one semester to go into nursing instead. She was floundering in that degree program too, hence the academic probation period. 

I sent her off to therapy and at around a year, her therapist told her that she was suffering from bi-polar disorder but that she really needed to see a psychiatrist in order to get meds. Based on the therapy sessions, she explained to daughter that her illness was probably coming from dad as she saw his behavior as probably due to being bi-polar as well. That is course, was not a real diagnosis for daughter's dad, but the probability was high. It is high. I think he truly suffers from this after reading about it and going back to our life together all those 21 years. Talking to me, coming home more often or me visiting her, as well as therapy got her through that 5th semester and out of academic probation! She went back to making all As again.:smile2:

Eventually in her senior year, she finally chose a great boyfriend, her now spouse. She graduated, got a job where she grew up and I was living in, married, bought a house and had a baby. With all those new life changes, there was no more time for therapy. She felt great and was living the life any parent would agree was the path to happy, mature, and healthy adulthood, but with the exception that she didn't think she needed medication anymore and got off her meds without consulting her doctors. Hasn't taken meds since.

Hence, we come back to why she had an affair and almost ruined her marriage and life. She went to therapy for a couple of months, but still not meds. Threw herself and her marriage into church and is very active in it. No more affairs, loves her husband dearly, but her actions don't show momma that!

Is going back to school, medical school this time and is doing great at the expense of her husband and children. She is doing what dad did. She gives her husband crumbs and appears to adore her girls. I say appears because I don't buy it. Her husband does everything for her and the girls. She is always tired and can't be bothered with the girls, much less her husband. She is behaving like my X and I did, but the roles are reversed. She is her dad and her husband is me.

It's so wrong and I am trying to make her see it, but it is going to be a huge struggle and a long haul. He can't even see that there is anything wrong. He behaves just like I did. His marriage will end just like mine did if he doesn't wake up soon. 

Sorry for the long post, but the damage we cause our kids takes time to reveal itself. You don't see it in your kids now, but you must remain vigilant because your marriage has always been dysfunctional too. There is damage there believe me. You need professional help too whether you divorce or not.


----------



## Affaircare

bremik said:


> I think I understand and will work on this. I did tell her this morning as I was getting the sad look that I was sorry but I don't want jay in my life anymore


May I suggest a small change? This is a VERY good start, and I'm proud that you are speaking up. VERY good job!!! But my suggestion would be to consider changing the "I'm sorry" part. Why should you be sorry that you don't want a third wheel in your marriage? That's reasonable and right! Plus, are you "sorry" that you don't want to let your wife have an emotional affair? Are you sorry you are speaking up for yourself? Not really. 

So in future attempts at the sad face, what could you say instead of "I'm sorry but I don't want Jay in my life anymore."? 

What about something like "Please don't attempt to use the sad face on me. I do not want Jay and that whole lifestyle in my life anymore" ? Or "I see you're trying to use the sad face on me, and it won't work. I am done with Jay and that whole scene. " ? Or "I do not choose to re-engage with you just because your face is sad or your cry. If you want to repair this it will take a WHOLE LOT MORE than a sad face or a few tears." ? 

Why don't you try....


----------



## Affaircare

TRy said:


> Mike or Jay it does not really matter. The real issue is how your wife wanted her marriage to you to be perceived by her coworkers, and how she is viewed as available and not in a relationship with you that they needed to take seriously. If you read other threads in the Infidelity section of this site, you will see just how common it is for cheaters to tell their coworkers that they will be divorcing their spouse just as soon as a certain situation allows, with that situation often being financial or when the youngest turns 18. Jay is that toxic person that not only uses her for his fun, but that also encourages her to have fun with his friends; that 2 am voicemail where Jay told your wife that "she should get it on with another co-worker and how lucky that guy was" is a case in point in how he talks this way with your wife. As I have said before, none of this happens in a vacuum. Put together incidents such as this have been telling you a clear and consistent story of who your wife is. The level of disrespect that she allows these other men to show toward you, is one of the worst that I have ever seen on this site.


Wow, QFT!! (Quoted For Truth) Good point!


----------



## sokillme

Bibi1031 said:


> First of all, let me tell you that I am not posting this to hurt you or make you feel guilty or any of those feelings that don't help one bit. I lived through something similar with my sick (in both health-wise and twisted type of sick) spouses. I didn't realize the extent of the damage to my children until after my daughter cheated on her husband for 1.5 years with a narcissistic sicko when my first grand daughter was a couple of months old.
> 
> 
> My marriage to her dad was dysfunctional, but I was so ignorant then and that should never happen when you are responsible for the upbringing of children. Shame of me for that, it's a darn poor excuse but sadly it's true. Her father was a terrible partner, but a great provider and dad, so I settled with this fate. I was replaced by my kids, and all my then husband's attention went to the kids and work. I was given crumbs to appease me and I settled for that (mostly in the form of sex). Again, shame on me for not fighting for more than the misery of affection and attention I was getting. Sadly, we show people how to treat us @bremik.
> 
> With that said, when the kids grew up (and he was in midlife), my spouse replaced both me and the kids with an AP. My daughter was 16 when this happened and our son was 11. It really messed my kids up. My daughter was doing great while she was at home. Once she went to college and was truly on her own, she came unglued. She went looking for daddy in her choice of boyfriends. The first serious relationship she had that became physical was with a guy only a couple of years younger than me. My kid was barely 17 when she started dating him, he was 33 (I was 38 at that time)!
> 
> He was an abusive creep that only dated young, naive girls that didn't know better. He had ED issues and blamed his lack of erections on his girlfriends. Very sick indeed. He finally dumped her because she of course was responsible for his limp ****. She was madly in love with him (gag me) and was devastated for a long time until therapy finally did it's thing and cured the damage done. She went through a string of low life boyfriends for her first 2 years in college until she finally opened up to me that she simply couldn't cope with relationship issues, school and being away from home. She was on academic probation because she couldn't maintain a 3.5 GP average. My kid never made lower than a A her whole life! Her GPA was always a perfect 4.0 until her fourth semester. It dropped to a 3.2 and her scholarships would be taken away if she didn't bring that GPA up. She earned a full scholarship to nursing school, well to medical school, but she couldn't cope and dropped medicine after only one semester to go into nursing instead. She was floundering in that degree program too, hence the academic probation period.
> 
> I sent her off to therapy and at around a year, her therapist told her that she was suffering from bi-polar disorder but that she really needed to see a psychiatrist in order to get meds. Based on the therapy sessions, she explained to daughter that her illness was probably coming from dad as she saw his behavior as probably due to being bi-polar as well. That is course, was not a real diagnosis for daughter's dad, but the probability was high. It is high. I think he truly suffers from this after reading about it and going back to our life together all those 21 years. Talking to me, coming home more often or me visiting her, as well as therapy got her through that 5th semester and out of academic probation! She went back to making all As again.:smile2:
> 
> Eventually in her senior year, she finally chose a great boyfriend, her now spouse. She graduated, got a job where she grew up and I was living in, married, bought a house and had a baby. With all those new life changes, there was no more time for therapy. She felt great and was living the life any parent would agree was the path to happy, mature, and healthy adulthood, but with the exception that she didn't think she needed medication anymore and got off her meds without consulting her doctors. Hasn't taken meds since.
> 
> Hence, we come back to why she had an affair and almost ruined her marriage and life. She went to therapy for a couple of months, but still not meds. Threw herself and her marriage into church and is very active in it. No more affairs, loves her husband dearly, but her actions don't show momma that!
> 
> Is going back to school, medical school this time and is doing great at the expense of her husband and children. She is doing what dad did. She gives her husband crumbs and appears to adore her girls. I say appears because I don't buy it. Her husband does everything for her and the girls. She is always tired and can't be bothered with the girls, much less her husband. She is behaving like my X and I did, but the roles are reversed. She is her dad and her husband is me.
> 
> It's so wrong and I am trying to make her see it, but it is going to be a huge struggle and a long haul. He can't even see that there is anything wrong. He behaves just like I did. His marriage will end just like mine did if he doesn't wake up soon.
> 
> Sorry for the long post, but the damage we cause our kids takes time to reveal itself. You don't see it in your kids now, but you must remain vigilant because your marriage has always been dysfunctional too. There is damage there believe me. You need professional help too whether you divorce or not.


Someone wrote something on here better to lose a broken marriage then to grow up in one.


----------



## Bremik

drifting on said:


> Bremik
> 
> I hate to say this but, perhaps you should have told her to give that look to Jay. Tell her that anyone who spoke poorly of you, you would eliminate the person for disrespecting you and the marriage. Tell her this has been a problem, for years, and her unable to comprehend what a fifth grader would, you are now done with the marriage. Tell her that her obvious choice is for Jay to be her interest you are going to let her go to be with him. Then leave and expose to her family, friends, work, wives of all three.
> 
> Watch her reaction, watch as she immediately begins damage control. I'm sorry Bremik, you just aren't the person who her heart wants to be with. That's very difficult for me to tell you.


I don't mind the honesty. I think last weekend made that crystal clear to me


----------



## Bremik

TRy said:


> Mike or Jay it does not really matter. The real issue is how your wife wanted her marriage to you to be perceived by her coworkers, and how she is viewed as available and not in a relationship with you that they needed to take seriously. If you read other threads in the Infidelity section of this site, you will see just how common it is for cheaters to tell their coworkers that they will be divorcing their spouse just as soon as a certain situation allows, with that situation often being financial or when the youngest turns 18. Jay is that toxic person that not only uses her for his fun, but that also encourages her to have fun with his friends; that 2 am voicemail where Jay told your wife that "she should get it on with another co-worker and how lucky that guy was" is a case in point in how he talks this way with your wife. As I have said before, none of this happens in a vacuum. Put together incidents such as this have been telling you a clear and consistent story of who your wife is. The level of disrespect that she allows these other men to show toward you, is one of the worst that I have ever seen on this site.


That was a little heavier but thanks. I agree, my whole point on intercepting that message wasn't what it said it was more the fact that he was comfortable saying it. It showed this type of conversation had happened many times before. Same as uncovering these recent texts- there was nothing bad in them, the problem was that he was still contacting her and she responded AND most importantly didn't tell me. Furthermore, those texts didn't read like he hadn't talked to her in a long time so how long had they been communicating? How did he get that number?? I really wonder if he isn't a predator and hasn't done anything sexual with her and is just waiting and once mission accomplished he puts a check by her name and on to the next one. He is way to alpha male to have conquered and not brag about it


----------



## Cynthia

bremik said:


> He is way to alpha male to have conquered and not brag about it


I don't agree with this. A strong man doesn't need to brag. And if Jay were going to brag, it wouldn't be to you. That would be burning his bridges to your wife.


----------



## Bremik

CynthiaDe said:


> I don't agree with this. A strong man doesn't need to brag. And if Jay were going to brag, it wouldn't be to you. That would be burning his bridges to your wife.


I just think he would want me to know. It doesn't really matter it was just a thought I had. At this point that whole concept doesn't change anything - it is bad enough without it and just a little worse with it only because there would be verification of what is already assumed


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> I agree, my whole point on intercepting that message wasn't what it said it was more the fact that he was comfortable saying it. It showed this type of conversation had happened many times before.


 Ever wonder why Jay apologized for Mike dry humping your wife's leg right in front of you? It was because Jay is the group's alpha male that has been encouraging such actions with your wife, and making being disrespectful toward you a part of the group's regular humor. With your wife being a willing member of this group.


----------



## Evinrude58

Bremik, you are obviously afraid of jay and mike. Nobody allows their wife to be "dryhumped" in front of them. 
It is definitely a case of you being ridiculed by them in front of your wife. They had a good laugh about that at your expense.
Who gives a rats arse if "jay" apologized for that crap.

If you allow such bs to occur in the future, you're going to have the same thing with the next woman. 
You don't have to fight, you don't have to shoot anyone---- but when you or your wife are disrespected to this extent in front of you---- you should do SOMETHING.
And if they want a physical confrontation, you should be willing at all costs.
You cannot let your lady see you as weak in front of other men.

This is your main problem with your wife.

I almost think if you showed up at your wife's work at closing time and had a "word" with these guys in a tone that anyone would understand, your wife would see you differently and might start showing you a little respect.
I doubt it, because she's a person of dubious character. 

But let's face it--- isn't it about time you confronted these guys in front if your wife and settled business on your end?
Send your wife packing, but send a message to these guys in order to keep your own mind free of doubt and shame. Handle this!

Btw, some old dude told YOU That your wife was leaving you for his son?
How did you explain things to THIS guy? It should have been explained with harsh words and gritted teeth. 

If your wife didn't leave this den of trash and get a different job, I'd just divorce and move on. Really.

As long as she's around these guys, you have no marriage.


----------



## Chaparral

bremik said:


> I just think he would want me to know. It doesn't really matter it was just a thought I had. At this point that whole concept doesn't change anything - it is bad enough without it and just a little worse with it only because there would be verification of what is already assumed


He wouldn't want you to know or anyone else to know that would tell his wife. 

When the idiot humped your wife you got mad but did nothing, Jay on the other hand used that to apologize for the so called idiot and be her knight in shining armor (KISA) . I think you've under estimated the "idiot."

Since her parents made her a distant number 2 after her older sister, it really sounds like she has daddy issues. It at least explains her behavior toward so many men and seeking validation from them. What kind of marriage does her older sister have?

If you do end up trying to keep her, a requirement would have to be individual counseling for you both including you being able to talk to her counselor occasionally. Cheaters notoriously lie to counselors.

I think your response to her should be even more terse.. Like, " go away I'm done. If you need to talk, call Jay."


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bremik said:


> I just think he would want me to know. It doesn't really matter it was just a thought I had. At this point that whole concept doesn't change anything - it is bad enough without it and just a little worse with it only because there would be verification of what is already assumed


Here's my problem with your posting style and current thinking. You are treating this like little kid or high school bullying. You all are adults. You need to think of this in adult themes. I'm being lazy and I may do it later, but many of your comments remind me of middle school and high school thinking. I always laugh at the term Alpha Male when it is applied to humans. You know what Alphas do? They posture, give scary looks and beat their chests. They walk around and make it known what is theirs and not yours. They don't TELL YOU, they walk around and ACT "like they own the room."

He understands you know, he understands you suspect, his power lies in you doing nothing and accepting his behavior. This is what adult human Alphas love, the power and the high of never verbally expressing their strength. Seriously, he smacked down the nasty dude for dry humping your wife and you didn't do it. He claimed his property and passively showed everyone who was alpha without acknowledging he was cheating with your wife. 

It is the subtle things that make a person look weak.


----------



## JohnA

@TRy, hi disagree that Jay and Mike are alpha males. They are ******* alpha wannabes and bullies. I refuse to allow individuals like them in my life unlike bremilk. To allow these individuals into one's life for any reason is to refuse to grow up and become an adult. This applies regardless of gender.

If I was to move to location near Bremilk and becomes friends with him and ran into jay and mike I would ignore them and advise Bremilk what many here are doing. If mike and jay tried to associate with me I would bluntly inform them to not speak to me since they are ******* wannabes who judge their maieness by ****ing around with woman when they are married. I would conclude by advising them life is to short to allow losers into it. 

Hey I am a mellow, helpful guy, and really nice guy to perhaps 92% of the world but a cold hearted, ruthless ******* to the other 8%.


----------



## TRy

JohnA said:


> @TRy, hi disagree that Jay and Mike are alpha males. They are ******* alpha wannabes and bullies. I refuse to allow individuals like them in my life unlike bremilk.


First, in commenting on Jay being the groups alpha male, I never commented on Mikes alpha status. Second, even if Jay would be a alpha wannabe in most groups, in this group he may very well be the alpha male. Even if Jay is just an alpha wannabe in this group, he is faking alpha for the OP's wife, and she is buying into it enough that she always puts Jay first.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

JohnA said:


> @TRy, hi disagree that Jay and Mike are alpha males. They are ******* alpha wannabes and bullies. I refuse to allow individuals like them in my life unlike bremilk.


 Wannabes, want to be doing things. Jay has NEVER been removed from the marriage, still goes places with his wife and if you believe he doesn't know about the toxic nature of his relationship I have a bridge to sell you in the Saharan Desert. He did what Bremik avoided and then went up and apologized for another man from his group. Jay is Alpha, maybe not Mike, but Jay is not a "wannabe."


----------



## Bremik

TRy said:


> Ever wonder why Jay apologized for Mike dry humping your wife's leg right in front of you? It was because Jay is the group's alpha male that has been encouraging such actions with your wife, and making being disrespectful toward you a part of the group's regular humor. With your wife being a willing member of this group.


I wholeheartedly agree and that is why he has been my focus


----------



## Bremik

Evinrude58 said:


> Bremik, you are obviously afraid of jay and mike. Nobody allows their wife to be "dryhumped" in front of them.
> It is definitely a case of you being ridiculed by them in front of your wife. They had a good laugh about that at your expense.
> Who gives a rats arse if "jay" apologized for that crap.
> 
> If you allow such bs to occur in the future, you're going to have the same thing with the next woman.
> You don't have to fight, you don't have to shoot anyone---- but when you or your wife are disrespected to this extent in front of you---- you should do SOMETHING.
> And if they want a physical confrontation, you should be willing at all costs.
> You cannot let your lady see you as weak in front of other men.
> 
> This is your main problem with your wife.
> 
> I almost think if you showed up at your wife's work at closing time and had a "word" with these guys in a tone that anyone would understand, your wife would see you differently and might start showing you a little respect.
> I doubt it, because she's a person of dubious character.
> 
> But let's face it--- isn't it about time you confronted these guys in front if your wife and settled business on your end?
> Send your wife packing, but send a message to these guys in order to keep your own mind free of doubt and shame. Handle this!
> 
> Btw, some old dude told YOU That your wife was leaving you for his son?
> How did you explain things to THIS guy? It should have been explained with harsh words and gritted teeth.
> 
> If your wife didn't leave this den of trash and get a different job, I'd just divorce and move on. Really.
> 
> As long as she's around these guys, you have no marriage.


No I never talked to the "old dude" as he lived down by some very good friends of ours and they called me asking if everything was ok and told me why because he had told them that. As far as confrontation and calling me scared I guess think what you must. I do agree as long as she is buddies w jay my problems stay


----------



## Bremik

Chaparral said:


> He wouldn't want you to know or anyone else to know that would tell his wife.
> 
> When the idiot humped your wife you got mad but did nothing, Jay on the other hand used that to apologize for the so called idiot and be her knight in shining armor (KISA) . I think you've under estimated the "idiot."
> 
> Since her parents made her a distant number 2 after her older sister, it really sounds like she has daddy issues. It at least explains her behavior toward so many men and seeking validation from them. What kind of marriage does her older sister have?
> 
> If you do end up trying to keep her, a requirement would have to be individual counseling for you both including you being able to talk to her counselor occasionally. Cheaters notoriously lie to counselors.
> 
> I think your response to her should be even more terse.. Like, " go away I'm done. If you need to talk, call Jay."


Jay apologized specifically to me not my wife- not that it matters. Her older sister is having marriage problems husband seems quite angry- all I know is they are blaming him and I have no idea what the problem is. Sound familiar?


----------



## Malaise

bremik said:


> No I never talked to the "old dude" as he lived down by some very good friends of ours and they called me asking if everything was ok and told me why because he had told them that. As far as confrontation and calling me scared I guess think what you must. *I do agree as long as she is buddies w jay my problems stay*


No


Your problem is your wife, not Jay. Get rid of him and there will be another down the road.


----------



## Bremik

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Here's my problem with your posting style and current thinking. You are treating this like little kid or high school bullying. You all are adults. You need to think of this in adult themes. I'm being lazy and I may do it later, but many of your comments remind me of middle school and high school thinking. I always laugh at the term Alpha Male when it is applied to humans. You know what Alphas do? They posture, give scary looks and beat their chests. They walk around and make it known what is theirs and not yours. They don't TELL YOU, they walk around and ACT "like they own the room."
> 
> He understands you know, he understands you suspect, his power lies in you doing nothing and accepting his behavior. This is what adult human Alphas love, the power and the high of never verbally expressing their strength. Seriously, he smacked down the nasty dude for dry humping your wife and you didn't do it. He claimed his property and passively showed everyone who was alpha without acknowledging he was cheating with your wife.
> 
> It is the subtle things that make a person look weak.


I don't know what you want me to say. I look at them as a waste of my time. I am angry at my wife for continually bringing them in my life. I have nothing to prove with them.


----------



## eric1

TRy said:


> Mike or Jay it does not really matter. The real issue is how your wife wanted her marriage to you to be perceived by her coworkers, and how she is viewed as available and not in a relationship with you that they needed to take seriously. If you read other threads in the Infidelity section of this site, you will see just how common it is for cheaters to tell their coworkers that they will be divorcing their spouse just as soon as a certain situation allows, with that situation often being financial or when the youngest turns 18. Jay is that toxic person that not only uses her for his fun, but that also encourages her to have fun with his friends; that 2 am voicemail where Jay told your wife that "she should get it on with another co-worker and how lucky that guy was" is a case in point in how he talks this way with your wife. As I have said before, none of this happens in a vacuum. Put together incidents such as this have been telling you a clear and consistent story of who your wife is. The level of disrespect that she allows these other men to show toward you, is one of the worst that I have ever seen on this site.




Bremik.

Respectfully, you need to do less 'trying' and more 'doing'

What is your next material step and when are you going to do it?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bremik said:


> I don't know what you want me to say. I look at them as a waste of my time. I am angry at my wife for continually bringing them in my life. I have nothing to prove with them.


Yes and to me, many of your words sounds like you expected them to grow out of this behavior. She never earned your trust back, IMO, because you waited for her and these other people to grow up. Correcting people or actions, especially in a marriage, is never a waste of time. I didn't say assault, scream, yell, maim or any number of things to these idiots. I'm saying quit looking at them through a Parent and Child lens.
IMO, It's why you accepted this crappy behavior from them and your wife. 

This isn't about proving things to anyone, it is about your own self respect. Letting a dude dry hump your wife and doing nothing isn't about "nothing to prove" or being "a waste of my time." It's about not accepting bullying and disrespect. You are here again, after 8 years, which you can try to play off as a reconciliation attempt, but it was the real "waste of my time" in all of this drama.

If you would have stood up for yourself maybe the reconciliation would have worked or you'd be telling us how you woke up before eight years. I'm glad you are stepping forward, but to start healing you have to realize not to make excuses for these people. One of the ways is to stop repeatedly giving examples of their child like behavior. They are adults, playing kid games, but they are adults.


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> No I never talked to the "old dude" as he lived down by some very good friends of ours and they called me asking if everything was ok and told me why because he had told them that.


 What a humiliating thing to have to hear from your good friends, and no matter what you said in response, it took a toll with how your friends perceive you and your marriage. Such things happening is not normal in a healthy marriage, but you have had to deal with so many such insults, that it did not even make the top of your list. Just another humiliation that your wife's inappropriate and outrageous behavior with Jay and his freinds has made you have to endure. 

This is actually a serious matter, and an indication that something may have gone on between your wife and Mike. The fact that Mike's father believes that your wife is leaving you for Mike is based on something that he believes to be real enough to tell others. He would not just tell your very good friends such a serious thing based on nothing. I am not saying that he is right that you wife is planning on leaving you for Mike. What I am saying is that either Mike, your wife, or both, said something or did something that led him to this belief. For example, perhaps Mike's dad dropped by Mike's house unannounced and caught them in a compromising situation, so they had to tell him something. It also is an indication that Mike's dad knows your wife well enough that he thinks that she will be marrying his son, which begs the question, why does Mike's dad know your wife so well? I have worked closely with people for many years and I have never even met most of their dads, and if I do it is a 15 second hello. I am not trying to pile on your wife, but wow.


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> Jay apologized specifically to me not my wife- not that it matters. Her older sister is having marriage problems husband seems quite angry- all I know is they are blaming him and I have no idea what the problem is. Sound familiar?


 When you say that "all I know is they are blaming him", is "they" your older sister and her husband, and is "him" Jay?


----------



## Bremik

eric1 said:


> Bremik.
> 
> Respectfully, you need to do less 'trying' and more 'doing'
> 
> What is your next material step and when are you going to do it?



Trying to get appt with lawyer. Have to wait until Monday at this point


----------



## Bremik

TRy said:


> What a humiliating thing to have to hear from your good friends, and no matter what you said in response, it took a toll with how your friends perceive you and your marriage. Such things happening is not normal in a healthy marriage, but you have had to deal with so many such insults, that it did not even make the top of your list. Just another humiliation that your wife's inappropriate and outrageous behavior with Jay and his freinds has made you have to endure.
> 
> This is actually a serious matter, and an indication that something may have gone on between your wife and Mike. The fact that Mike's father believes that your wife is leaving you for Mike is based on something that he believes to be real enough to tell others. He would not just tell your very good friends such a serious thing based on nothing. I am not saying that he is right that you wife is planning on leaving you for Mike. What I am saying is that either Mike, your wife, or both, said something or did something that led him to this belief. For example, perhaps Mike's dad dropped by Mike's house unannounced and caught them in a compromising situation, so they had to tell him something. It also is an indication that Mike's dad knows your wife well enough that he thinks that she will be marrying his son, which begs the question, why does Mike's dad know your wife so well? I have worked closely with people for many years and I have never even met most of their dads, and if I do it is a 15 second hello. I am not trying to pile on your wife, but wow.



This was when she was in college. I still consider him and idiot and don't put his dad far behind.


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> This was when she was in college. I still consider him and idiot and don't put his dad far behind.


 The first thing that popped into my mind when you said that was could Jay have been covering for Mike by saying that your wife was at Jay's place when in fact she was with Mike? Do not waste any time pursing this thought, but the fact that such things are possible must be hurtful to you. This whole situation is nuts. I am sorry that you are here, I really am.


----------



## Bremik

TRy said:


> The first thing that popped into my mind when you said that was could Jay have been covering for Mike by saying that your wife was at Jay's place when in fact she was with Mike? Do not waste any time pursing this thought, but the fact that such things are possible must be hurtful to you. This whole situation is nuts. I am sorry that you are here, I really am.


I appreciate that but I assure you mike is a waste of time. Really none of the specifics matter it is more that it happened it could have been Donald Duck and still the same end result


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
For what it is worth I do not see you as weak, scared nor inferior. I see you as an adult surrounded by children. If an actual dog came up and humped your wife's leg what would you think? It is a dog and it is behaving on instinct. As I see it there is little difference between that dog and these "adults" you are forced to deal with. Could you even imagine going up to a woman and humping her leg? Can you imagine the intellect necessary to consider that acceptable behavior?

There is speak of an "alpha" male as if we are referring to a pack of wolves. You are a cognizant being and this behavior is foreign to you and quite puzzling. There are those that attribute maturity to this behavior but I cannot nor can you it would seem. Do you believe that if your wife was cognitively developed that she would be impressed by an "alpha male". She would not, she would see their behavior as the juvenile antics that it is. You have nothing to prove to any of those neanderthals. You see them for the immature, insecure, superficial dullards that they are but sadly your wife does not because she is more aligned with their developmental stage than with yours.

You have matured beyond them but unfortunately your wife has not. This is the tragic reality that many of us face.


----------



## Bremik

TRy said:


> When you say that "all I know is they are blaming him", is "they" your older sister and her husband, and is "him" Jay?


I meant my wife's older sister and her husband. My wife's family are blaming my brother in law for whatever is going on. My sister in law is playing victim


----------



## Bremik

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> For what it is worth I do not see you as weak, scared nor inferior. I see you as an adult surrounded by children. If an actual dog came up and humped your wife's leg what would you think? It is a dog and it is behaving on instinct. As I see it there is little difference between that dog and these "adults" you are forced to deal with. Could you even imagine going up to a woman and humping her leg? Can you imagine the intellect necessary to consider that acceptable behavior?
> 
> There is speak of an "alpha" male as if we are referring to a pack of wolves. You are a cognizant being and this behavior is foreign to you and quite puzzling. There are those that attribute maturity to this behavior but I cannot nor can you it would seem. Do you believe that if your wife was cognitively developed that she would be impressed by an "alpha male". She would not, she would see their behavior as the juvenile antics that it is. You have nothing to prove to any of those neanderthals. You see them for the immature, insecure, superficial dullards that they are but sadly your wife does not because she is more aligned with their developmental stage than with yours.
> 
> You have matured beyond them but unfortunately your wife has not. This is the tragic reality that many of us face.


Thank you and yes I agree with you and despise the whole alpha male thing period. As far as my wife's "friends" they would be a waste of my limited time. My wife is my only concern and what she brings to me


----------



## Evinrude58

bremik said:


> I don't know what you want me to say. I look at them as a waste of my time. I am angry at my wife for continually bringing them in my life. I have nothing to prove with them.


You have nothing to prove?

How about proving to them that your wife is yours and to keep their mouths and their ****s to themselves? 

It's definitely your wife that continuously puts you in these predicaments.
I think the poster that suggested jay is kind of a ring leader that farms your wife out to other dudes in the pack may be on to something.

Your wife is just a scourge.

The more I see, the more I think you're right about jay and mike and others. They aren't worth your time.
However, I'd rank your wife among them. Just get all of these lowlifes out of your life, including your worthless wife.

You shouldn't have to fight off other men And shut up guys that are saying your wife is leaving you and marrying z, x, or y.

Be strong.


----------



## sokillme

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Here's my problem with your posting style and current thinking. You are treating this like little kid or high school bullying. You all are adults. You need to think of this in adult themes. I'm being lazy and I may do it later, but many of your comments remind me of middle school and high school thinking. I always laugh at the term Alpha Male when it is applied to humans. You know what Alphas do? They posture, give scary looks and beat their chests. They walk around and make it known what is theirs and not yours. They don't TELL YOU, they walk around and ACT "like they own the room."
> 
> He understands you know, he understands you suspect, his power lies in you doing nothing and accepting his behavior. This is what adult human Alphas love, the power and the high of never verbally expressing their strength. Seriously, he smacked down the nasty dude for dry humping your wife and you didn't do it. He claimed his property and passively showed everyone who was alpha without acknowledging he was cheating with your wife.
> 
> It is the subtle things that make a person look weak.


**** that **** life's too short. Let them have the trash your wife is or at least how she behaves. True Alphas (which is stupid by the way) don't have to fight for their wives. My wife would never let anyone do that ****. She would have slapped his ass. If she didn't I wouldn't fight for her, I let him have her disloyal ass in a split second, no one disrespects me like that and gets to spend time with me again. That is what an assertive man does because he knows he always has options. All these people are silly, this is high school type **** and are not worth any time, including your wife. True adults don't behave this way.


----------



## sokillme

malaise said:


> no
> 
> 
> your problem is your wife, not jay. Get rid of him and there will be another down the road.


spot on!


----------



## Bremik

Evinrude58 said:


> You have nothing to prove?
> 
> How about proving to them that your wife is yours and to keep their mouths and their ****s to themselves?
> 
> It's definitely your wife that continuously puts you in these predicaments.
> I think the poster that suggested jay is kind of a ring leader that farms your wife out to other dudes in the pack may be on to something.
> 
> Your wife is just a scourge.
> 
> The more I see, the more I think you're right about jay and mike and others. They aren't worth your time.
> However, I'd rank your wife among them. Just get all of these lowlifes out of your life, including your worthless wife.
> 
> You shouldn't have to fight off other men And shut up guys that are saying your wife is leaving you and marrying z, x, or y.
> 
> Be strong.


I totally agree!


----------



## smi11ie

Your wife is behaving like the college groupie and the guys are enjoying her sl**ty behaviour. Contact thier spouses, somehow get the truth and then nuke them with exposure to employer, family, everyone. That stuff is fine in college but they are wrecking lives now. They should be held accountable and be taught a lesson in adulthood.

I should add that this could be a group thing. You should keep an open mind.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

sokillme said:


> **** that **** life's too short. Let them have the trash your wife is or at least how she behaves. True Alphas (which is stupid by the way) don't have to fight for their wives. My wife would never let anyone do that ****. She would have slapped his ass. If she didn't I wouldn't fight for her, I let him have her disloyal ass in a split second, no one disrespects me like that and gets to spend time with me again. That is what an assertive man does because he knows he always has options. All these people are silly, this is high school type **** and are not worth any time, including your wife. True adults don't behave this way.


LOL. His wife isn't here I am addressing his actions. Yes, his wife should have done things, but I could give a crap about what she should have done, he is here. You want to sit back passively and let your wife act cool. I'm not going to wait and then me and the wife are having a marriage altering discussion later.In your zeal, you don't realize when someone agrees with you, but isn't being angry and off putting. Nowhere did I tell him to save his marriage. I told him he should have acted LONG AGO and he would either have successfully reconciled or moved on. 

Remember HE WANTED reconciliation and went to counseling.
He is still using the farm as a crutch to stay.
He still passively excuses her actions.
This is where my post context is based.

You just rewrote what I said in a previous post and added a bunch of curse words. If he wants to detach and stop moping around he needs to stop treating their actions like kids waiting to grow up. You know, as he has been doing since she found this new friend. He is not a Parent waiting for a child to grow out of a behavior, which normally you enact boundaries and consequences, these are adults and if they want to act like kids let them. He should go find himself a grown up.

Yes OP, your wife is a child as well as everyone in this scenario.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

@bremik , 
Couldn't help but think of you and your situation when I listened to this the other day. Paul Barrere may have had a premonition in 1979.
Stay focused and keep moving forward.


----------



## Bremik

phillybeffandswiss said:


> LOL. His wife isn't here I am addressing his actions. Yes, his wife should have done things, but I could give a crap about what she should have done, he is here. You want to sit back passively and let your wife act cool. I'm not going to wait and then me and the wife are having a marriage altering discussion later.In your zeal, you don't realize when someone agrees with you, but isn't being angry and off putting. Nowhere did I tell him to save his marriage. I told him he should have acted LONG AGO and he would either have successfully reconciled or moved on.
> 
> Remember HE WANTED reconciliation and went to counseling.
> He is still using the farm as a crutch to stay.
> He still passively excuses her actions.
> This is where my post context is based.
> 
> You just rewrote what I said in a previous post and added a bunch of curse words. If he wants to detach and stop moping around he needs to stop treating their actions like kids waiting to grow up. You know, as he has been doing since she found this new friend. He is not a Parent waiting for a child to grow out of a behavior, which normally you enact boundaries and consequences, these are adults and if they want to act like kids let them. He should go find himself a grown up.
> 
> Yes OP, your wife is a child as well as everyone in this scenario.


I must have missed something here?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bremik said:


> I must have missed something here?


He feels I am telling you to worry about still proving things to your wife. I said you should have done that long ago. He's saying your wife should have reacted to the dry humping himself. He's right, but she isn't here so, I am addressing my posts to your actions alone, which go back to the "proving things to your wife" scenario. Remember, YOU wanted reconciliation. Sokillme is leaving this out of the equation. Unfortunately, you didn't help by sitting back and doing nothing because you felt they didn't matter. 

As JohnA said earlier, I respect myself and it isn't about proving this or that to anyone. Someone dry humps my wife, I am going to be respectable, but there is going to be a brouhaha. If my wife does nothing, no violence of course, but it'll be much uglier for her than the idiot who did the act.


----------



## Affaircare

Well I'm not sure how all this disagreeing about something that happened long ago is going to be helpful now. It's in the past and done. How about if we focus on the present?

So @bremik you thought the weekend was going to be rough. How is it going? Is she trying the sad face, tearing up, or tempting sex? Have you managed to keep yourself away from her and busy with something else--like something to build you up and help you grow as a human and father maybe?

Also I'm going to throw this out there just as a thought. Did you know that I had an affair and that my Dear Hubby and I reconciled? I consider it a true reconciliation because we didn't just rugsweep it but rather BOTH actually looked at our own selves and changed. We both wanted to be different, better people! So one thing my Dear Hubby did while I was having my affair, that completely stopped things in its tracks and 100% changed my view of him, was that he found out who my OM was and found out his contact info, and he wrote to him and said "If you think I'm going to give her up without a fight, you are dead wrong. She is my WIFE and you better back the hell off because do not intend to just turn her over lightly."

Up to that point, I didn't think he really gave a hoot one way or another...not that he "disliked" me, but rather I thought he was indifferent. Apparently he was NOT indifferent and I really mattered to him! Enough that he was willing to fight for me! Now I doubt if he would have actually had a fist fight or anything like that--he's a very peaceful person by nature--but he did intend to do everything in his power to get me back. And after he said that, I looked at him in a different way. I respected him. He wasn't a little wishy-washy guy but rather this big, tall mountain of a man who was willing to do what a man had to do! That's REALLY powerful. Now when he is peaceful I know that it's like a Clydesdale mare with her foal--she has the power to absolutely kick the **** out of whatever got in her way or threatened to harm her or her foal--but when she's with her foal, she is gentle and peaceful. That's my Dear Hubby. 

So maybe for the future, it might be something to tuck away that many times, the lady-folk will look at a guy a little differently when he's willing to stand up and have a backbone. That doesn't mean he necessarily has to be the guy who goes around picking fights, but rather when the time requires it--he CAN and WILL stand tall. 

Let us know how your weekend is going!


----------



## TRy

Affaircare said:


> So starting today, every time she tries to talk to you or cries or tries to initiate sex, I want you to memorize this line (shortened from what @TRy suggested):
> 
> *"Honey, I am aware of much more about your 20 years of unfaithful behavior with Jay, Mike, and Adam than you will ever know because I am not going to tell you all that I know. But I will tell you that I know for a fact that you have not been honest with me about any of it. Despite giving you chance after chance to end all contact and be faithful to our marriage, you have consistently chosen to lie and purposefully cover up, and this time I am done. I have contacted divorce lawyers and am scheduling an appointment for next week."*
> 
> Seriously--memorize this. Be able to say this exact phrase EVERY SINGLE TIME she cries, EVERY SINGLE TIME she tries to tempt you with sex, every single time she does anything to try to engage you, hook you, and re-engage you.


 @OP: Have you said to your wife this or something similar to what Affaircare care and I suggested? If not, in order to get things moving forward you really need to do something like this right now.


----------



## Bremik

TRy said:


> @OP: Have you said to your wife this or something similar to what Affaircare care and I suggested? If not, in order to get things moving forward you really need to do something like this right now.


My intention was to meet with a lawyer get my basic facts together and then sit down with my wife. She has said nothing about it all weekend so to me that kind of proves she is just waiting for me to start the make up dance. Things are very cordial and normal otherwise. Everything is normal except we don't sleep together, kiss, say I love you or have sex.

She did get a little grumpy about something and about the time I thought "here we go" she let it go. I really think she is bewildered by what is going on. It makes me grumpy and motivated that she isn't talking about it. As Affaircare has said I changed my dance so it changes the rest. It should be easy for most to see that if I did my normal dance I would have talked to her, led the discussion, she would cry, I would feel guilty, we would make up then dance on. I am not talking to her about it and she is saying nothing. Now if I were in her shoes it would have been number 1 topic for me to get taken care of.


----------



## Openminded

She's waiting on you. She's in no hurry.


----------



## Marc878

Silence is golden. You can't fix her anyway. 

She's having "pick me dance" withdrawal and is probably confused.

Poor muffin.

I hope you've learned from your past this time. You're way to young to continue to waste your life away but only you can fix that.


----------



## Mr Blunt

Brimik
You have gotten over 300 replies and advice and almost all of it is excellent…You have taken very little action so far and you can post on here for another 300+ replies but *ONLY YOUR STRONG ACTIONS WILL IMPROVE YOUR LIFE!*

You need to do whatever you need to do so that you TAKE STRONG ACTIONS!...*Do not fool yourself, talking is not enough to get you out of your misery.*

If you cop out of taking actions you will become a spineless door mat that will not be any good to yourself or anyone else, including your children..*.You can still save your self respect and dignity but you cannot back down now*.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Waiting on you to come around has always worked before. Let's hope it doesn't this time.


----------



## Malaise

You have always been the one to give in. She's just waiting for you to do it again.

She doesn't know you've been getting some outside advice.

Let her squirm for awhile. Let her feel the uncertainty you've been feeling for years.


----------



## Bremik

Tatsuhiko said:


> Waiting on you to come around has always worked before. Let's hope it doesn't this time.


Everyday that has gone by since a week ago Saturday is making it more and more apparent that this is how the game/dance works.

I have also realized that I always initiate the talks, lead the conversation, and ultimately come up with the proposed solutions. All she has to do is cry and tell me what she didn't realize about what she did was wrong.


----------



## Bremik

Malaise said:


> You have always been the one to give in. She's just waiting for you to do it again.
> 
> She doesn't know you've been getting some outside advice.
> 
> Let her squirm for awhile. Let her feel the uncertainty you've been feeling for years.


All true. I believe I am starting to see frustration building but conversations are pleasant and I hope to get something set up with a lawyer today. As of this minute no one has called today. I think I am going to contact some other numbers. I have only had 2 of the 4 get back with me. One of them listed free initial consult then when I talked to them they said it was $100 initial then if you used them it would go towards bill. I thought that was a bad sign they bait and switch right out of the gate so am holding off on them. The other called back Friday while I was working and when I called her back she was out of office and I think in court today and tomorrow so we will see.


----------



## Malaise

bremik said:


> Everyday that has gone by since a week ago Saturday is making it more and more apparent that this is how the game/dance works.
> 
> I have also realized that I always initiate the talks, lead the conversation, and ultimately come up with the proposed solutions. All she has to do is cry and tell me what she didn't realize about what she did was wrong.


Men who love their wives are slow to recognize manipulation when it occurs but , looking back, are astounded to see how much has occurred in their marriage.


----------



## StillSearching

Malaise said:


> Men who love their wives are slow to recognize manipulation when it occurs but , looking back, are astounded to see how much has occurred in their marriage.


ME


----------



## Bremik

Malaise said:


> Men who love their wives are slow to recognize manipulation when it occurs but , looking back, are astounded to see how much has occurred in their marriage.


I think - not trying to use it as an excuse- that has been part of my confusion in this all along. I have it worked out in MY head not her working it out. So I think it is discussed, resolved and can move on- problem was all that was true but it was ME not her that had all this figured out!

It's like cheating on a test- if someone gives you all the answers you never learn the info because you don't have to. This is all still my point on why last weekend was so different than all the other crap over 22 years. In April of last year is one of the texts I found with jay - in November of the 2015 was when all this texting stuff with the current coworker was brought up on here. In February of 2016 I was trying to set up boundaries and in April is when she was still doing questionable interactions with current coworker. October 2016 is when jay had a text with my wife about being in WI that was also when she went to lunch with current coworker unbeknownst to me and was setting up going to community sport event with current coworker. 

So all this is going on and I am blowing up TAM with all my threads related to all this crap and jay was lurking in the background the WHOLE time and my wife didn't say a word. That's the straw that broke the camel's back


----------



## Malaise

bremik said:


> I think - not trying to use it as an excuse- that has been part of my confusion in this all along. I have it worked out in MY head not her working it out. So I think it is discussed, resolved and can move on- problem was all that was true but it was ME not her that had all this figured out!
> 
> It's like cheating on a test- if someone gives you all the answers you never learn the info because you don't have to. This is all still my point on why last weekend was so different than all the other crap over 22 years. In April of last year is one of the texts I found with jay - in November of the 2015 was when all this texting stuff with the current coworker was brought up on here*. In February of 2016 I was trying to set up boundaries and in April is when she was still doing questionable interactions with current coworker. October 2016 is when jay had a text with my wife about being in WI that was also when she went to lunch with current coworker unbeknownst to me and was setting up going to community sport event with current coworker*.
> 
> So all this is going on and I am blowing up TAM with all my threads related to all this crap and jay was lurking in the background the WHOLE time and my wife didn't say a word. That's the straw that broke the camel's back


This was/is deception pure and simple. Lying. By omission or overtly. Call it what you will. She actively worked against you and the marriage, You just don't know for sure to what extant. Some of us guess how far it likely went. 

And when you say something, she manipulates. And you capitulate. Wash, rinse , and repeat.

She can't understand the new you. Too bad for her, good for you.


----------



## jorgegene

Malaise said:


> Men who love their wives are slow to recognize manipulation when it occurs but , looking back, are astounded to see how much has occurred in their marriage.


man, is this one of the truest statements ever uttered by mankind.


----------



## eric1

Bremik - how did the meeting with the lawyer go?


----------



## Satya

A wise person from my past life once told me something that has stuck with me. "If you put in more than you get out, it's time to get the____ out!"


----------



## Satya

Malaise said:


> Men who love their wives are slow to recognize manipulation when it occurs but , looking back, are astounded to see how much has occurred in their marriage.


This is so true and to this day astounds me. It goes both ways, but despite knowing the majority of LOGICAL men that I have in my lifetime, they always throw logic out the window in the face of love. It saddens me, because even though it may seem like a broad generalization, I do believe many men love rather unconditionally. Women's love is more conditional and complex. That makes men prime targets to manipulation. 

Can't stress how many times I've had a come to Jesus moment with a man who is being treated badly or unfairly. Watching the cogs actually turn.... You almost wished you never convinced them of the truth.


----------



## Bremik

eric1 said:


> Bremik - how did the meeting with the lawyer go?


Haven't met yet. Still playing phone tag. Getting ready to work on it now.


----------



## Bremik

Satya said:


> This is so true and to this day astounds me. It goes both ways, but despite knowing the majority of LOGICAL men that I have in my lifetime, they always throw logic out the window in the face of love. It saddens me, because even though it may seem like a broad generalization, I do believe many men love rather unconditionally. Women's love is more conditional and complex. That makes men prime targets to manipulation.
> 
> Can't stress how many times I've had a come to Jesus moment with a man who is being treated badly or unfairly. Watching the cogs actually turn.... You almost wished you never convinced them of the truth.


I have no doubt manipulation is still going on however I have felt a new sense of control in the last week that I have not felt in a very long time. Case in point- my wife tried to say I love you recently and I said "you can't say that" and cut her off. She has been doubling up to try to make me happy- all I have in the back of my mind is jay has been there all along and she chose him. I am not feeling an ounce of guilt but I can tell meeting a lawyer is going to be a little anxious. It didn't help when I called the one office and told the lady what I wanted she said "awww"


----------



## Satya

bremik said:


> I have no doubt manipulation is still going on however I have felt a new sense of control in the last week that I have not felt in a very long time. Case in point- my wife tried to say I love you recently and I said "you can't say that" and cut her off. She has been doubling up to try to make me happy- all I have in the back of my mind is jay has been there all along and she chose him. I am not feeling an ounce of guilt but I can tell meeting a lawyer is going to be a little anxious. It didn't help when I called the one office and told the lady what I wanted she said "awww"


She can say whatever she wants. Let her. Talk is cheap.
You're just not going to buy into it now. And, you're not going to return it.


----------



## Cynthia

bremik said:


> I have no doubt manipulation is still going on however I have felt a new sense of control in the last week that I have not felt in a very long time. Case in point- my wife tried to say I love you recently and I said "you can't say that" and cut her off. She has been doubling up to try to make me happy- all I have in the back of my mind is jay has been there all along and she chose him. I am not feeling an ounce of guilt but I can tell meeting a lawyer is going to be a little anxious. It didn't help when I called the one office and told the lady what I wanted she said "awww"


I know this is a learning curve, but I'd like to point out that this is not about controlling her or turning the tables. This is about you setting boundaries on what you will or will not tolerate. When/if she says, "I love you," it is controlling for you to tell her what she can or cannot say. If you respond with someone like, "I don't want to hear it," then you are speaking what you want rather than making controlling statements. Own your boundaries, but don't try to make her do or not do anything.


----------



## Bremik

CynthiaDe said:


> I know this is a learning curve, but I'd like to point out that this is not about controlling her or turning the tables. This is about you setting boundaries on what you will or will not tolerate. When/if she says, "I love you," it is controlling for you to tell her what she can or cannot say. If you respond with someone like, "I don't want to hear it," then you are speaking what you want rather than making controlling statements. Own your boundaries, but don't try to make her do or not do anything.


Yes my statement came out wrong due to how I wrote it. What I meant was normally when she did things like that it instantly clouded my thinking, made me happy and lose focus. When she said I love you this time I wasn't trying to control what she said I was responding to my thought that she can't call this love if jay is still in the picture. That is what I felt when she said that. 

I felt control of myself in that I wasn't being swayed for once by what she was saying. I still have the same thought process and feelings of wanting jay out of my life. Also this week I am doing what I want to do and not trying to "win" her back or talk all this over like usual.


----------



## eric1

bremik said:


> Haven't met yet. Still playing phone tag. Getting ready to work on it now.


You are pushing this off. I could have three in person meetings with lawyers tomorrow and it's 4:50pm where I am.


----------



## Cynthia

bremik said:


> Yes my statement came out wrong due to how I wrote it. What I meant was normally when she did things like that it instantly clouded my thinking, made me happy and lose focus. When she said I love you this time I wasn't trying to control what she said I was responding to my thought that she can't call this love if jay is still in the picture. That is what I felt when she said that.
> 
> I felt control of myself in that I wasn't being swayed for once by what she was saying. I still have the same thought process and feelings of wanting jay out of my life. Also this week I am doing what I want to do and not trying to "win" her back or talk all this over like usual.


Your thoughts seem to be clearing and you are able to see things for how they really are. Excellent.


----------



## Bremik

eric1 said:


> You are pushing this off. I could have three in person meetings with lawyers tomorrow and it's 4:50pm where I am.


I am certainly dragging my feet- Thanks for the slap!

I just received notice that I won't be working away tomorrow and possibly Thursday. I may take my son to Ohio State University tomorrow to tour the campus to help his school decisions but other than that I should be able to make calls. Friday we are going to Michigan State to tour the campus so it will be out.

Telling you this so I have no excuses


----------



## eric1

bremik said:


> I am certainly dragging my feet- Thanks for the slap!
> 
> I just received notice that I won't be working away tomorrow and possibly Thursday. I may take my son to Ohio State University tomorrow to tour the campus to help his school decisions but other than that I should be able to make calls. Friday we are going to Michigan State to tour the campus so it will be out.
> 
> Telling you this so I have no excuses




Absolutely man, I'm not criticizing you. It's just at this point the biggest issue with betrayeds is falling into the inaction cycle.

It will absolutely destroy you if you don't get out.


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> I am certainly dragging my feet- Thanks for the slap!
> 
> I just received notice that I won't be working away tomorrow and possibly Thursday. I may take my son to Ohio State University tomorrow to tour the campus to help his school decisions but other than that I should be able to make calls. Friday we are going to Michigan State to tour the campus so it will be out.
> 
> Telling you this so I have no excuses


 In saying that you "have no excuses" you are making excuses. There is no reason to prioritize campus tours for this week when next week or the week after would be just as good. When you add in the fact that this is actually a more important matter to the family then his college selection process, it becomes even more obvious that you are making excuses not to have the needed discussion with your wife. Additionally, there was no important reason for you to even be waiting to talk to an attorney prior to the discussion with your wife; so waiting to meet with an attorney first, coupled with you dragging your feet on booking such an attorney, sure looks like you are using seeing an attorney as an excuse to delay the big discussion. I know that you have been afraid of facing the truth, and that you have had your head in the sand, but action by you is long overdue. The excuses that you have been using since last week are just that, excuses. Fear is a terrible way to run your life.

Eric1 is right "at this point the biggest issue with betrayeds is falling into the inaction cycle".


----------



## eric1




----------



## jorgegene

Satya said:


> This is so true and to this day astounds me. It goes both ways, but despite knowing the majority of LOGICAL men that I have in my lifetime, they always throw logic out the window in the face of love. It saddens me, because even though it may seem like a broad generalization, I do believe many men love rather unconditionally. Women's love is more conditional and complex. That makes men prime targets to manipulation.
> 
> Can't stress how many times I've had a come to Jesus moment with a man who is being treated badly or unfairly. Watching the cogs actually turn.... You almost wished you never convinced them of the truth.


what is surprising about this too, is that i have known of many men, highly successful in business or professionals who would be considered
'alpha males' by their peers at work and in social settings, but who allow themselves to be manipulated and act 'beta' around their spouses.


----------



## Bremik

eric1 said:


>


Ok that was good Eric1! I have appointment at 3 30 Monday with a lawyer. I was wanting to visit a few since initial consult is free with the one's I picked so I have a choice but we will see how Monday goes. There is certainly a difference in saying divorce on here and literally saying it on the phone.

Thanks to Affaircare and the links I believe I can file for no fault dissolution which would be the fastest, simplest and cheapest way to go. Filing in county is $350 for dissolution. I also believe if I set up how to divide things my wife will go along with it. My oldest son is 20 so he legally is out. My second oldest is 18 so according to Ohio law when he turns 19 he will legally be out. My daughter is 16 and am sure she would want to live with her mother which I don't have a problem with. My point is child support will be minimal and all the children are old enough to make their own decisions as far as who they want to be with and when. My wife makes more than me so alimony won't be an issue for me. I am looking at taking the debt and all assets in exchange for no child support from me and no alimony from her. This allows her to move on and allows me to do what I can for the farm and if I can't do any good it's mine to dispense of in whatever manner I want. Financially she really will have much more money on her own- and "much" is a relative term but still would be comfortable for her and my daughter.

I am seriously considering how much I need of a lawyer so hope to find that out Monday. Like I said a little somber and weird talking to someone on phone about the need for divorce but guessing Monday will be even worse. Thanks again for all the help and "nudging"


----------



## Affaircare

@bremik, 

You initial "plan" is reasonable and fair, although I'm sure some details will need some ironing out. Overall, though, I think you're looking at it fairly realistically and have addressed it more than equitably. If I could recommend a small adaptation, I might say that you each assume your own individual pre-marriage assets and debts (so if she has a credit card in her name before marriage, she takes it), but that you are willing to assume both the asset and debt of the farm.

Otherwise, here is my one word of advice to you regarding lawyers. Often people go into an attorney's office thinking that the lawyer is VERY WISE and will give them the benefit of their wisdom in suggesting the course of action in your best interest. I do not believe that's true. I think attorneys are driven and pressured by their firms to get more billable hours, and thus they usually will find something to contend that will result in padding their bill. 

Now I realize that is a somewhat cynical point of view, but I want you to be aware that lawyers are human beings SAME AS YOU AND ME. They serve many, many clients and can not possibly remember all the details of your case like you can. YOU are your own best advocate. This is why it's so important for you to know the laws, because you know all the details of your situation INTIMATELY and you are the one who will have to live life in your skin after this is all over with! So yes, listen to suggestions and recommendations, but just remember that it is only their opinion, and your opinion is just as valid. The BEST thing that lawyers can do is file the right form, properly filled out, to accomplish WHAT YOU WANT. 

Make sense? In other words, the lawyer works for you--YOU are in charge, not them. They offer you legal RECOMMENDATIONS and since they know the judges and other attorneys, they may have a better feel for how someone is likely to respond, etc. You take all that under advisement and then YOU MAKE THE DECISIONS.


----------



## eric1

Bremik - status report time, my man


----------



## Evinrude58

So Bremik, even in divorce, you're going to make it easy and take care of your wife? 
Probably best, but I think you just just see what your lawyer says.

You probably aren't, and have never wanted to divorce your wife. I don't think you can, because it's obvious you love her--- too much.

If I were you, I'd try to take care of yourself as much as possible when you draw up those papers. You may find if you make it too easy, she may jump at the chance.
Be sure you're serious about the divorce before you serve her.


----------



## NoChoice

Evinrude58 said:


> So Bremik, even in divorce, you're going to make it easy and take care of your wife?
> Probably best, but I think you just just see what your lawyer says.
> 
> You probably aren't, and have never wanted to divorce your wife. I don't think you can, because it's obvious you love her--- too much.
> 
> If I were you, I'd try to take care of yourself as much as possible when you draw up those papers. You may find if you make it too easy, she may jump at the chance.
> Be sure you're serious about the divorce before you serve her.


Deserving of consideration OP. Better the devil you know.......


----------



## Tatsuhiko

See you in five years, Bremik, when you come back to complain about your wife's behavior.


----------



## Marc878

Same old, same old. All talk no do.


----------



## Bibi1031

Did yet another one bite the dust?

:crying:


----------



## Bremik

Thanks for the vote of confidence- though I can't blame you. I missed my first appt with the lawyer due to concrete coming an hour late and I figured that wouldn't impress anyone here so I didn't post it. I did meet with the lawyer Thurs and it will cost $1400 for a dissolution. He said it would be cheaper to go in the next county to file. He is ready to go when I give the green light..

I am waiting to consult with a counselor today and plan on talking to my wife tonight. Been PM ing another member on here and having a a very interesting conversation.

I didn't realize anyone had posted on here of I would have responded earlier


----------



## Bremik

eric1 said:


> Bremik - status report time, my man



Letting you know I posted


----------



## Marc878

bremik said:


> Thanks for the vote of confidence- though I can't blame you. I missed my first appt with the lawyer due to concrete coming an hour late and I figured that wouldn't impress anyone here so I didn't post it. I did meet with the lawyer Thurs and it will cost $1400 for a dissolution. He said it would be cheaper to go in the next county to file. He is ready to go when I give the green light..
> 
> I am waiting to consult with a counselor today and plan on talking to my wife tonight. Been PM ing another member on here and having a a very interesting conversation.
> 
> I didn't realize anyone had posted on here of I would have responded earlier


We're not here for you to impress us but to try and help you have a life you deserve. 

Not a bad price


----------



## Marc878

When you speak to your wife don't ask her for a divorce. If you have indeed made up your mind then just tell her you're filling and getting out. You just want to discuss business and child custody.

Manipulative tactics like talking to her or making idle threats won't get you anywhere. As you found through the years of this.


----------



## Bremik

Evinrude58 said:


> So Bremik, even in divorce, you're going to make it easy and take care of your wife?
> Probably best, but I think you just just see what your lawyer says.
> 
> You probably aren't, and have never wanted to divorce your wife. I don't think you can, because it's obvious you love her--- too much.
> 
> If I were you, I'd try to take care of yourself as much as possible when you draw up those papers. You may find if you make it too easy, she may jump at the chance.
> Be sure you're serious about the divorce before you serve her.


Lawyer good with what I want and understands farming- said she would be a fool not to take my offer. No I don't want a divorce but the only way to get away from jay and lying is to get away from her. I am taking control of what I have left- the farm and exchanging alimony and child support for all the debt. My wife and daughter should live comfortably on what she makes if she manages properly.

I have never implied that I have contempt for my wife- just some of her actions. I have been romantically involved with her for 28 yrs and don't think it is surprising that I am crawling towards what will take 41 days to end it. Feel free to weigh in


----------



## Bremik

Marc878 said:


> We're not here for you to impress us but to try and help you have a life you deserve.
> 
> Not a bad price


I just meant people would assume I was trying to get out of it by not going and having an excuse so I waited until I had done it. Thanks toAffaircare I looked at Ohio laws to see what I could do and laid it out for the lawyer. I looked for the easiest,fastest and cheapest way to do it with everyone in mind and felt like I addressed my wants as well


----------



## Marc878

Think of what's got you where you are today. Years of it. 

Don't make his harder than it needs to be.

Take care of yourself first. Kids second. Let your wife fend for herself. She has been anyway.


----------



## Evinrude58

Bremik,
I of all people understand. 
I hope you get it all straightened out. I hope your wife finally sees how horribly she's treated you.
You have loved her like everyone wishes to be loved. Hold your head high and make your life like you want it. It's her loss.


----------



## Malaise

Evinrude58 said:


> Bremik,
> I of all people understand.
> I hope you get it all straightened out. *I hope your wife finally sees how horribly she's treated you*.
> You have loved her like everyone wishes to be loved. Hold your head high and make your life like you want it. It's her loss.


E, I don't think that will happen.

She will think she's the mistreated one.


----------



## eric1

bremik said:


> I just meant people would assume I was trying to get out of it by not going and having an excuse so I waited until I had done it. Thanks toAffaircare I looked at Ohio laws to see what I could do and laid it out for the lawyer. I looked for the easiest,fastest and cheapest way to do it with everyone in mind and felt like I addressed my wants as well




I'd (obviously) be the first to get on you for inaction. This is not inaction. You are doing great.

So let's say you file and she says she'll go unconditional No Contact...let's map out your next steps


----------



## Bremik

eric1 said:


> I'd (obviously) be the first to get on you for inaction. This is not inaction. You are doing great.
> 
> So let's say you file and she says she'll go unconditional No Contact...let's map out your next steps


Still getting very helpful information from a member here and my luck came through and was unable to talk to counselor yesterday so hope today. Still have some personal issues I want to address.

I feel everything is lined up to do what I need to. I am extremely confident she won't fight me.


----------



## Affaircare

@bremik, 

I think the main things to consider are: 

1) Don't return to the usual "Dance Steps"--in other words, the way it went in the past: you'd discover something, she'd be defensive, you'd be angry, she'd cry, you'd say "him or me", she'd make promises, you'd wait and see, she'd make up to you without actually following through, after a while you'd go back to the same old same old with nothing truly changed. If you do those same steps, then you'll get the same result. This time we aspire to a different, (hopefully) better result! So looking at the steps you usually do, where are you in the "dance" and what could you differently instead of your usual step?

2) Don't go inactive and let this be swept under the rug--so far both of you have essentially avoided resolving this issue for roughly 20 years! And part of the way you two avoid it is by "going inactive"--so this time continue to take one different step...then another different step. Keep moving forward. You can not make her give up a lifestyle of being inappropriately flirty and partying with other men--SHE will have to want to do that of her own accord. But it is absolutely reasonable for you to keep yourself moving in a new direction (doing things a new way) and keep letting her know where YOU are at, and what YOU think and feel. Okay yep keep in mind whether or not you're giving away strategy, but you can share with her what you choose to share with her. Keep moving. Keep growing. Keep doing something different and then if it did or didn't work, adjust and try again. Don't let it slip back into "swept under the rug.

3) Don't try to control her; instead control YOU--part of seeing your spouse as an adult is giving them the chance to be an idiot. LOL What I mean is that not every choice someone makes is going to be wise, but an adult experiences the benefits and costs of the choice they made, an adult accepts personal responsibility, and an adult learns from it and grows and does better. YOU can not make her be a faithful, honest woman. But you can control YOU. You can make choices based on all the facts we don't really have here on TAM. You can make decision and accept both the costs and the benefits of what you purposefully decided. You can be responsible for YOUR LIFE. And you can look back and learn from what you've done before and what you're doing now and say "this worked...this didn't..." and grow. YOU can be a faithful man if that's who you choose to be . YOU can be an honest man too. And YOU can choose to ONLY have a partner in your life who shares those traits. Those are all legitimate choices. So instead of focusing on "making her be honest" ... focus on what you need to change and what kind of man you choose to be, and be that guy. Be... it's a verb, and verbs involve action.


----------



## Bremik

*Thank you* to all who have provided input both on here and privately, I have done my best to listen to it all and construct my final plan.

I have been around my wife's family for 47 years and been intimately involved specifically with my wife for 28-30 years depending on what is considered "intimate". I don't feel I can do justice on here to their influence on our relationship as well as the knowledge I have of my wife's background and what makes up who she is. I feel I am well aware of the "infractions" my wife has inflicted on our marriage. In fact, I came here with the info in hand and didn't need a whole lot of guidance to figure out what I already knew and though I don't deny the obvious negative implications I do question what the validity of those implications.

With this in mind tonight I am going to start my conversation with my wife with "you haven't said anything about our discussion 3 weeks ago" and what I am going to follow with is where I stand right now with the information I have to date. It will be clear to her how much I love her and I am no longer willing to deal with jay or anyone like him in MY life anymore. I can't move forward with him being involved and being completely unable to trust her. I will inform her that as a result the only options I see are to end our relationship or she needs to renew her commitment to our marriage. I will tell her I have spoken to a lawyer and if she wants to know what I am proposing as a divorce agreement I will give that to her. She has exactly 1 week from today to decide if she is in or out in the marriage and if she is in she has to TELL ME what SHE is going to do to to fix the problems SHE has created. I will not ask her anything about this during the week and if I hear nothing by next Sunday then I will assume she is out. She is free to inform me of my contributions to these problems as she sees it without judgement or anger from me as well as free to discuss any topic concerning this during the week. But in the end I will not guide, influence or in any way construct the path that she is to take in fixing this.


----------



## Malaise

bremik said:


> . But in the end I will not guide, influence or in any way construct the path that she is to take in fixing this.


I like this plan. She has to decide what she wants with no coaching. Only then can you know what's going on in her head.

Based on what you've said about her so far, I don't know if she'll give up Jay easily. Good luck.


----------



## eric1

bremik said:


> *Thank you* to all who have provided input both on here and privately, I have done my best to listen to it all and construct my final plan.
> 
> 
> 
> I have been around my wife's family for 47 years and been intimately involved specifically with my wife for 28-30 years depending on what is considered "intimate". I don't feel I can do justice on here to their influence on our relationship as well as the knowledge I have of my wife's background and what makes up who she is. I feel I am well aware of the "infractions" my wife has inflicted on our marriage. In fact, I came here with the info in hand and didn't need a whole lot of guidance to figure out what I already knew and though I don't deny the obvious negative implications I do question what the validity of those implications.
> 
> 
> 
> With this in mind tonight I am going to start my conversation with my wife with "you haven't said anything about our discussion 3 weeks ago" and what I am going to follow with is where I stand right now with the information I have to date. It will be clear to her how much I love her and I am no longer willing to deal with jay or anyone like him in MY life anymore. I can't move forward with him being involved and being completely unable to trust her. I will inform her that as a result the only options I see are to end our relationship or she needs to renew her commitment to our marriage. I will tell her I have spoken to a lawyer and if she wants to know what I am proposing as a divorce agreement I will give that to her. She has exactly 1 week from today to decide if she is in or out in the marriage and if she is in she has to TELL ME what SHE is going to do to to fix the problems SHE has created. I will not ask her anything about this during the week and if I hear nothing by next Sunday then I will assume she is out. She is free to inform me of my contributions to these problems as she sees it without judgement or anger from me as well as free to discuss any topic concerning this during the week. But in the end I will not guide, influence or in any way construct the path that she is to take in fixing this.




Textbook perfect


----------



## TX-SC

Sounds like a good plan. Please keep us posted on how it plays out. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## Marc878

You need to Make it clear that your boundaries will be enforced. I think at this time you should see that long term your life would be better without her if she can't cut ties.

I would not accept anything less than full transparency. The only thing you are trying to control is your life here.

She's put herself in the position of mistrust and it's up to her to earn that back. I would not jump back in with open arms until she does.

The problem is you've taugh her how she can treat you.


----------



## sokillme

bremik said:


> *Thank you* to all who have provided input both on here and privately, I have done my best to listen to it all and construct my final plan.
> 
> I have been around my wife's family for 47 years and been intimately involved specifically with my wife for 28-30 years depending on what is considered "intimate". I don't feel I can do justice on here to their influence on our relationship as well as the knowledge I have of my wife's background and what makes up who she is. I feel I am well aware of the "infractions" my wife has inflicted on our marriage. In fact, I came here with the info in hand and didn't need a whole lot of guidance to figure out what I already knew and though I don't deny the obvious negative implications I do question what the validity of those implications.
> 
> With this in mind tonight I am going to start my conversation with my wife with "you haven't said anything about our discussion 3 weeks ago" and what I am going to follow with is where I stand right now with the information I have to date. It will be clear to her how much I love her and I am no longer willing to deal with jay or anyone like him in MY life anymore. I can't move forward with him being involved and being completely unable to trust her. I will inform her that as a result the only options I see are to end our relationship or she needs to renew her commitment to our marriage. I will tell her I have spoken to a lawyer and if she wants to know what I am proposing as a divorce agreement I will give that to her. She has exactly 1 week from today to decide if she is in or out in the marriage and if she is in she has to TELL ME what SHE is going to do to to fix the problems SHE has created. I will not ask her anything about this during the week and if I hear nothing by next Sunday then I will assume she is out. She is free to inform me of my contributions to these problems as she sees it without judgement or anger from me as well as free to discuss any topic concerning this during the week. But in the end I will not guide, influence or in any way construct the path that she is to take in fixing this.


All this is good but what are you going to do with she says yes that she is committed to you and then in 2 months everything goes back to the way it was. This is going to take a whole change of mindset from her and so far it doesn't seem like she even think she has done anything wrong. Are you going to hold her too it? For the rest of your life? Because that is really what it's going to take. 

Character doesn't change without a monumental commitment to change it. It doesn't change because of threats. Most people like your wife just double there efforts to hide stuff.


----------



## Bremik

sokillme said:


> All this is good but what are you going to do with she says yes that she is committed to you and then in 2 months everything goes back to the way it was. This is going to take a whole change of mindset from her and so far it doesn't seem like she even think she has done anything wrong. Are you going to hold her too it? For the rest of your life? Because that is really what it's going to take.
> 
> Character doesn't change without a monumental commitment to change it. It doesn't change because of threats. Most people like your wife just double there efforts to hide stuff.


These are all concerns for me. Going back to the dance analogy I have always brought up the various "incidents" after we danced through me being mad, her sad, and me wanting answers that she doesn't really give and doesn't seem to understand the severity of her actions. This time, though I did express anger that jay was still around after initially finding out 3 weeks ago, I haven't brought it up since. I don't say anything about loving her and told her she couldn't say it to me- no reason why.

I have all my tools on the table- a plan and an endgame in my visit with a lawyer reviewing my exit strategy who is ready to go when I say so. I have no intentions of directing her and have waited 3 weeks so have no reason to believe I can't wait another week. This dance her and I have done since the beginning- my training if you will- is easy to identify and I have seen it at work from her the last 3 weeks. My hope is I will be able to tell by her response this week if the dance continues or changes. If it doesn't change then I think I have my answer. I certainly will post here for opinions and hope the correct decision is achieved.

I have NEVER talked with a lawyer or even come close to that step. I also have NEVER been able to maintain a distance between my wife and I like has been maintained in the last 3 weeks. Perfect? No, but certainly a different "dance" from all the other times.


----------



## sokillme

bremik said:


> These are all concerns for me. Going back to the dance analogy I have always brought up the various "incidents" after we danced through me being mad, her sad, and me wanting answers that she doesn't really give and doesn't seem to understand the severity of her actions. This time, though I did express anger that jay was still around after initially finding out 3 weeks ago, I haven't brought it up since. I don't say anything about loving her and told her she couldn't say it to me- no reason why.
> 
> I have all my tools on the table- a plan and an endgame in my visit with a lawyer reviewing my exit strategy who is ready to go when I say so. I have no intentions of directing her and have waited 3 weeks so have no reason to believe I can't wait another week. This dance her and I have done since the beginning- my training if you will- is easy to identify and I have seen it at work from her the last 3 weeks. My hope is I will be able to tell by her response this week if the dance continues or changes. If it doesn't change then I think I have my answer. I certainly will post here for opinions and hope the correct decision is achieved.
> 
> I have NEVER talked with a lawyer or even come close to that step. I also have NEVER been able to maintain a distance between my wife and I like has been maintained in the last 3 weeks. Perfect? No, but certainly a different "dance" from all the other times.


I hope your right but honestly I believe you have to be done. Like done done. 

Now I know I will probably get flak here from some of the guys for bringing this up but whatever. Your story reminds me of the movie Gone With the Wind (I get it some people think it's a chick movie). The classic "frankly my dear I don't give a damn". It's a great movie by the way if you can get past the dated racist stuff. Scarlet spends the whole movie chasing after the boring dude, while Clark Gable who is like Han Solo in this movie wants her cause she is pretty hot (Vivian Leigh was smoken). Finally at the end it seems like now she finally gets how cool Gable is but maybe it's really because he has given up on her. Anyway the Rhett Butler character doesn't care anymore because he finally fed up with her act, and NOW she is in love with him. This book and movie was made almost 100 years ago and it still holds true today. People love it and identify with it because we all know some silly people in this world that only want what they can't have. Watch -- Bonny is their dead kid. 






Anyway Clark Gable is a boss in this movie and that scene in particular. The line about her being a child and thinking by saying she is sorry all the past can be corrected, is as brilliant today as it was then. Anyway that's how you need to be, cold and done. 

You are probably going to need to get to this point for you to see any change in your silly wife. But the only way for her to really be afraid enough to change will be at the point you don't care. And if you ever do start caring again she will go back to being the malcontented person she is. Now maybe if for the rest of your relationship you are pretty much done and one foot out the door she will be on her best behavior, but do you want to live like that, deal with all that nonsense. Or are you going to get to the point where you would just rather find someone who isn't so disrespectful and wishy washy. Someone who is just is decent to you and a good mate. I think you should just skip over all the nonsense and move on because I don't think she will change without you giving up. And once you give up it will be too late anyway. 

We will see though I guess.


----------



## farsidejunky

One week is six and 3/4 days too long. I would give her less than an hour to decide, and limit her access in any way to possible contact Jay during the decision time.

If she has to make a phone call or send a text, you have your answer.


----------



## Satya

farsidejunky said:


> One week is six and 3/4 days too long. I would give her less than an hour to decide, and limit her access in any way to possible contact Jay during the decision time.
> 
> If she has to make a phone call or send a text, you have your answer.


I agree. A week is way too long. On a game show you're lucky to get more than 30 seconds to pick door #1, 2, or 3 for your prize. And you're showing her ahead of time what lies behind them all. 

30 seconds.


----------



## eric1

If it takes her more than 39 seconds to decide then that's a pretty clear decision.


----------



## Bremik

eric1 said:


> If it takes her more than 39 seconds to decide then that's a pretty clear decision.


This is in response to everyone saying I am giving her too long to decide. I understand what you are saying but if I do that how am I going to know if she is going to follow through? I really embrace this "dance" idea and in the past I have said him or me and she immediately said me and here I am. In the past I do a lot of the talking, setting the framework of what she needs to do or coming up with excuses for her of why she does the things she does- everyone has even seen that on here. This time I am laying out how I feel and what my plans are for ME not US while asking her if she is in or out and if she is in what is SHE going to do different.

I realize it is weak at best but it will be the first time in 23 years that she sets the boundary and tells me how she will be held accountable. I can guarantee you all that if I give here 30 seconds to answer she will say it is me and the dance continues. I still haven't figured out how she should be held accountable- i.e. I still can't track her I-messages. I realize it isn't the greatest plan but it is very different from the past especially considering I finally have a plan laid out with a lawyer. Still open to ideas


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

It's a good plan, stay with it... have patience and trust your outcome.

Time to process on her part is important, gives her an opportunity to understand why actions have reactions in a way she has never experienced and their accumulated impact.


----------



## Satya

If the dance continues it will be because you have allowed it to continue. 

If you're going to ASK her whether she picks you, and she says you, then if she ACTS like she didn't really pick you, you LEAVE HER. That's the consequence of lying to you and breaking your boundaries. 

Or, you decide for yourself, that you are done with her, leaving, and aren't even going to bother giving her a choice/chance, then you LEAVE HER. 

Either way, you're choosing not to dance, but to step away and let her dance her immature dance with someone else.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Seriously, WHY would you even WANT to stay with a woman who has prioritized another man over you for YEARS? AND who has continuously LIED to you about contact with him? I understand that you are hoping the outcome is different this time since you are reacting differently, but I can tell you this... once she is comfortable with seeing that you arent going anywhere after all this, she will be right back to where she left off with Jay.


----------



## Affaircare

So @bremik, let me see if I understand correctly. 

When you talk about the "Dance Steps" you're talking about that cycle that usually happens: she contacts and hides it and lies, you discover it and get angry, she cries and avoids it, you talk about it, she makes promises, you police her, she does not follow through and she contacts and hides it and lies.... That's roughly the OLD dance, right?

And you are trying to do a new dance, in other words looking at what you usually do and doing something different--ANYTHING different. 

And this time she hid it and lied yet again, and you discovered it and got angry yet again, and she has cried and avoided it yet again.... so part of your change was to not be the one to bring it up and talk about it. And using that technique, you discovered that the last 3 weeks, she has avoided it and not made any attempt to address the issue, bring it up, make it right, or fix things between you. 

During the 3 weeks of not talking about it, you took that time instead to read the divorce laws in your state to gain knowledge (knowledge is power!), and you took the time to come up with a plan in the event that you do divorce, and you took the time to meet with an attorney and find out if you plan was realistic. Now you know what life might look like if you do choose to divorce, and you have the price it would cost to file, and a little tip about filing in another county to make life a little easier, legally. 

So now, after 3 weeks of not talking about it, your plan is to start the talk, but this time tell her where you're at, what you think and feel, how you have LITERALLY NO TRUST because her actions and lies have destroyed it, and the boundary you are putting around YOURSELF: namely you will no longer tolerate a life that in any way includes Jay or any of the gang associated with Jay. And you aren't telling her what she "has to" do but rather giving her a chance to think about IF she wants to rebuild your trust, and if she does, what she's willing to do ON HER OWN, without you policing her or being her daddy. In a way you're saying "It's on you. You destroyed this, so indicate if you're willing to do the work necessary to rebuild. If you are, then what ACTIONS are you going to take that I'll be able to see that will demonstrate trust WORTHINESS?" 

I agree that if you were to say to her "him or me" her response should be immediate. But then again, she's already been down this road and she responded by hiding her continued contact with him and lied to you about it! So she has one week to 1) be the one who initiates the repair discussion, and 2) be the one who has a plan "Here's what I plan to do to fix the mess I've made." Is that roughly it?

If so, bear two things in mind: 1) She may not be willing to rebuild. It may well be that she doesn't think she's done anything wrong, or she may not be mature enough to recognize that healthy adults do not carry on like teens. and 2) What she is willing to do may not be acceptable to you. I guarantee you that she will not want to lose the cushy life she has. She will not want to experience the consequences of her choices, because they hurt and are uncomfortable. But in order to REALLY FIX THIS she is going to have to experience some pain or loss. To truly repair this, she's going to have to lose some people she considers "friends" and that will feel sad to her. She's going to have to lose some privacy for a while to prove she is where she said she'd be, doing what she said she would, etc. See? If she offers crumbs as her plan, you are under no obligation to accept rugsweeping or blameshifting!


----------



## hylton7

sounds like your wife is cake eating.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Affaircare said:


> I agree that if you were to say to her "him or me" her response should be immediate. But then again, she's already been down this road and she responded by hiding her continued contact with him and lied to you about it! *So she has one week to 1) be the one who initiates the repair discussion, and 2) be the one who has a plan "Here's what I plan to do to fix the mess I've made." * Is that roughly it?
> 
> If so, bear two things in mind: 1) She may not be willing to rebuild. It may well be that she doesn't think she's done anything wrong, or she may not be mature enough to recognize that healthy adults do not carry on like teens. and 2) What she is willing to do may not be acceptable to you. I guarantee you that she will not want to lose the cushy life she has. She will not want to experience the consequences of her choices, because they hurt and are uncomfortable. But in order to REALLY FIX THIS she is going to have to experience some pain or loss. To truly repair this, she's going to have to lose some people she considers "friends" and that will feel sad to her. She's going to have to lose some privacy for a while to prove she is where she said she'd be, doing what she said she would, etc. See? If she offers crumbs as her plan, you are under no obligation to accept rugsweeping or blameshifting!


She is NEVER going to do this, not for real. She will put on a show about what she is going to do, and go right back to what she has been doing. Why? Because she does not think that she has done anything wrong. She will do whatever she wants to do, and lie. Its been working all this time, right? He's still there. And in her mind, who the hell is HE to tell her who she can or cannot talk to? 

No woman is worth all this crap.


----------



## sokillme

bremik said:


> I really embrace this "dance" idea and in the past I have said him or me and she immediately said me and here I am.


And why would you expect this to be any different. Is it going to be another year from now and the same result and you saying again - here I am. Objectively It doesn't look like this dance idea has been working for you. Honestly I think you can suspect more of the same.

If it were me I would lead her off the dance floor and find another partner.


----------



## Steve1000

@bremik

I've read the entire thread. I don't like the idea of you giving her another deadline. It's time that you finally take control of your life. Another deadline will just make you seem more annoying to your wife. Respect yourself a little bit and end it. Then it's up to your wife to clean up the mess and fight for you if she wants.


----------



## Bremik

Affaircare said:


> So @bremik, let me see if I understand correctly.
> 
> When you talk about the "Dance Steps" you're talking about that cycle that usually happens: she contacts and hides it and lies, you discover it and get angry, she cries and avoids it, you talk about it, she makes promises, you police her, she does not follow through and she contacts and hides it and lies.... That's roughly the OLD dance, right?
> 
> And you are trying to do a new dance, in other words looking at what you usually do and doing something different--ANYTHING different.
> 
> And this time she hid it and lied yet again, and you discovered it and got angry yet again, and she has cried and avoided it yet again.... so part of your change was to not be the one to bring it up and talk about it. And using that technique, you discovered that the last 3 weeks, she has avoided it and not made any attempt to address the issue, bring it up, make it right, or fix things between you.
> 
> During the 3 weeks of not talking about it, you took that time instead to read the divorce laws in your state to gain knowledge (knowledge is power!), and you took the time to come up with a plan in the event that you do divorce, and you took the time to meet with an attorney and find out if you plan was realistic. Now you know what life might look like if you do choose to divorce, and you have the price it would cost to file, and a little tip about filing in another county to make life a little easier, legally.
> 
> So now, after 3 weeks of not talking about it, your plan is to start the talk, but this time tell her where you're at, what you think and feel, how you have LITERALLY NO TRUST because her actions and lies have destroyed it, and the boundary you are putting around YOURSELF: namely you will no longer tolerate a life that in any way includes Jay or any of the gang associated with Jay. And you aren't telling her what she "has to" do but rather giving her a chance to think about IF she wants to rebuild your trust, and if she does, what she's willing to do ON HER OWN, without you policing her or being her daddy. In a way you're saying "It's on you. You destroyed this, so indicate if you're willing to do the work necessary to rebuild. If you are, then what ACTIONS are you going to take that I'll be able to see that will demonstrate trust WORTHINESS?"
> 
> I agree that if you were to say to her "him or me" her response should be immediate. But then again, she's already been down this road and she responded by hiding her continued contact with him and lied to you about it! So she has one week to 1) be the one who initiates the repair discussion, and 2) be the one who has a plan "Here's what I plan to do to fix the mess I've made." Is that roughly it?
> 
> If so, bear two things in mind: 1) She may not be willing to rebuild. It may well be that she doesn't think she's done anything wrong, or she may not be mature enough to recognize that healthy adults do not carry on like teens. and 2) What she is willing to do may not be acceptable to you. I guarantee you that she will not want to lose the cushy life she has. She will not want to experience the consequences of her choices, because they hurt and are uncomfortable. But in order to REALLY FIX THIS she is going to have to experience some pain or loss. To truly repair this, she's going to have to lose some people she considers "friends" and that will feel sad to her. She's going to have to lose some privacy for a while to prove she is where she said she'd be, doing what she said she would, etc. See? If she offers crumbs as her plan, you are under no obligation to accept rugsweeping or blameshifting!


This is all spot on! The two things that worry me are 1) How does she acknowledge what she has done if she hasn't for 23 years? And assuming this is what happens how do I deal with this without coaching her? 2) Any child in trouble won't normally go for the biggest branch at spanking time and I have a feeling my wife is highly likely to offer crumbs so again how do I deal with this without coaching her?


----------



## Malaise

bremik said:


> This is all spot on! The two things that worry me are 1) How does she acknowledge what she has done if she hasn't for 23 years? And assuming this is what happens how do I deal with this without coaching her? 2) Any child in trouble won't normally go for the biggest branch at spanking time and I have a feeling my wife is highly likely to offer crumbs so again how do I deal with this without coaching her?


She has to know that Jay is the issue. It's always been him. And she also has to know you want him out of your lives. 

It should be simple. Either Jay is gone or you are.

If she can't figure that out...


----------



## Bremik

3Xnocharm said:


> Seriously, WHY would you even WANT to stay with a woman who has prioritized another man over you for YEARS? AND who has continuously LIED to you about contact with him? I understand that you are hoping the outcome is different this time since you are reacting differently, but I can tell you this... once she is comfortable with seeing that you arent going anywhere after all this, she will be right back to where she left off with Jay.


I agree with this and am trying to decide how to deal with it. As she said herself when I wrote her the letter - " I just thought we would be able to work through this like we always have but now I am not sure we even can or will". To me she already knows my attitude is different and sadly she made that comment BEFORE I found out she was still communicating with jay which in itself raises many questions.

I am trying to heed the advice to keep moving forward. I don't know for sure what my next steps are if she convinces me she is in but I am hoping how she says it and what she does will give me answers.
?
I didn't get in last night until 11 so I never got to talk to her. I was texting her today and asked her why she never has brought up why her and jay are still communicating. She didn't answer right away but did answer an unrelated text so I resent it again later and put in "are you waiting to answer this?" She responded "I guess- not sure what you want me to do about it." To me she is trying to maintain the usual pattern so I responded " I don't want jay in my life and you can't seem to do without him in yours so the question is what do you want to do about it?" Haven't gotten an answer yet


----------



## Steve1000

bremik said:


> Haven't gotten an answer yet


I hope for your sake that someday soon, you'll be a man who wouldn't wait for an answer. I can understand that it is difficult and very scary to end a relationship with someone you love. I hope you do it for yourself, but don't do it out of pressure from this forum. It's your life and you don't owe an explanation to any of us.


----------



## Malaise

bremik said:


> I didn't get in last night until 11 so I never got to talk to her. I was texting her today and asked her why she never has brought up why her and jay are still communicating. She didn't answer right away but did answer an unrelated text so I resent it again later and put in "are you waiting to answer this?" She responded "I guess- not sure what you want me to do about it." To me she is trying to maintain the usual pattern so I responded " I don't want jay in my life and you can't seem to do without him in yours so the question is what do you want to do about it?" *Haven't gotten an answer yet*


Yes you have.


----------



## Evinrude58

bremik said:


> This is all spot on! The two things that worry me are 1) How does she acknowledge what she has done if she hasn't for 23 years? And assuming this is what happens how do I deal with this without coaching her? 2) Any child in trouble won't normally go for the biggest branch at spanking time and I have a feeling my wife is highly likely to offer crumbs so again how do I deal with this without coaching her?


One thing is for certain, Bremik--- I DO see a change in your attitude.

You are thinking clearly and concisely now. You recognize the truth of what's been going on. I think that in itself is a big step for you in dealing with this.


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## Evinrude58

Just read the question you asked her and she failed to respond to.

I think it is quite clear that she has no intention of getting rid of Jay, and by her casual attitude, thinks you can suck it up and deal with it, or she has no problem at all putting you down the road.

Her attitude STILL shows a total lack of respect for you. She doesn't seem to GAF one way or the other what you do. I know how that would make me feel! 

I hope you make the call based on what you think is best for you also. You don't want to throw out the divorce card and not really, really mean it. Especially in this case, because from what you've described, I think she is quite willing to divorce you and not have to have you annoying her about her awesome relationship with her affair partner, Jay.


----------



## Marc878

bremik said:


> I agree with this and am trying to decide how to deal with it. As she said herself when I wrote her the letter - " I just thought we would be able to work through this like we always have but now I am not sure we even can or will". To me she already knows my attitude is different and sadly she made that comment BEFORE I found out she was still communicating with jay which in itself raises many questions.
> 
> Your lack of action has taught her she can keep him in your lives.
> 
> I am trying to heed the advice to keep moving forward. I don't know for sure what my next steps are if she convinces me she is in but I am hoping how she says it and what she does will give me answers.
> 
> She'll just take it deeper underground because you've never really meant it before. You've shown her that she is worth more than you. She isn't.
> 
> I didn't get in last night until 11 so I never got to talk to her. I was texting her today and asked her why she never has brought up why her and jay are still communicating. She didn't answer right away but did answer an unrelated text so I resent it again later and put in "are you waiting to answer this?" She responded "I guess- not sure what you want me to do about it." To me she is trying to maintain the usual pattern so I responded " I don't want jay in my life and you can't seem to do without him in yours so the question is what do you want to do about it?" Haven't gotten an answer yet


Oh she gave you her answer by ignoring you. Jay is more important

She has shown you how many times that Jay isn't going away? Yet you still refuse to believe her. This plays like a broken record. That same sad song over and over.


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## Affaircare

I agree with @Evinrude58--I think it's reasonable to say "where you are" without mentioning the word divorce. See, the idea is to clearly communicate that you have decided you will no longer have this in your life. Period. You may even go so far as to say that you've "considered every option" or you are "thinking of all the possibilities" because in real life the goal is not to threaten her ("Do what I want or I'll divorce you"). In real life the goal is to state as simply and coherently as possible what you think, what you feel, and what YOU have decided. The choice is not up to HER--it's up to YOU. 

You are giving her the gracious opportunity to REPENT. If she is not willingly and knowingly repenting, then she will not stop--it's as simple as that. 

Maybe think of it this way: up to this point the two of you have walked along the path of life together, voluntarily. If she does not think what she's done is wrong, she may not think her marriage is in jeopardy--and of course she would be in some fairly steep denial! But that doesn't mean she doesn't think after 25 years she's pretty secure and you'll just do it the same old way you've always done it. 

So this talk is to tell her, "In my opinion, I'm done. I think after April when I said 'him or me' and you continued to stay in touch AND hide it from me and lie, that means you've chosen him. I feel utterly betrayed and completely have no trust in you or anything you say. I have considered all MY options, and I am choosing to no longer have Jay or anyone related to that gang of people or anyone who even acts like that in MY life. I had really hoped you would be with me on this life journey, but based on your actions that is NOT what I'm seeing. And I am making my decision based on how you act, not what you say. So I wanted you to know that this time will not be like all the other times where we argued and you promised and I believed you while you lied to my face. I will not be treated like that ever again, and I told you I wouldn't. This is the mess your actions have created: our relationship is in jeopardy. So if you want a relationship with me, I'm giving you one week to think about what YOU are going to do to make it right with me, and what actions you are going to take to repair this. I'm done. You let a third party in our marriage and I will not tolerate that. So YOU have one week to think about it and bring up the topic on what you are willing to do to address this. If you avoid it as you've done in the past, I will take that as your answer. " 

Then leave the room and be done. No more talking. That's the rough idea.


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## Malaise

She would rather be Jay's 'friend' than your wife.


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## lucy999

bremik said:


> This is all spot on! The two things that worry me are 1) How does she acknowledge what she has done if she hasn't for 23 years? And assuming this is what happens how do I deal with this without coaching her? 2) Any child in trouble won't normally go for the biggest branch at spanking time and I have a feeling my wife is highly likely to offer crumbs so again how do I deal with this without coaching her?


You leave her. 


Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## NoChoice

OP,
By way of suggestion I recommend you do your talking face to face. Texting is impersonal and this is about as personal a subject as one can broach. In any event I would emphasize just how close to the brink the marriage is and tell her that you are giving her time because you do not want an answer, you want the answer. The answer that will determine whether the marriage lives or dies. Stress to her that the answer she gives will not be taken as true until her actions prove them out. If her actions do not match her words then D will happen immediately. Also, I would make it clear that failure to show serious interest in saving the marriage, inaction on her part, will be indicative of her desire to D.

She must be made to see that her unwillingness to severe ties with Jay and cease all inappropriate male interactions has dealt the marriage a death blow from which it cannot recover without serious effort on her part to breath some life into it and that if she does not, then it will die.

You indicated that you were unsure as to how to proceed and were going to let her take the lead. This may prove problematic if she is as cognitively challenged as I fear she is. She will simply have no idea how to proceed nor what you expect of her. If that is the case, she will appear to be uninterested in saving the marriage when in reality she is just not thoughtful enough to know how t repair what she has damaged. You must either make this determination and decide to "guide" her at times or deem it not worth the effort on your part in which case the D will move ahead.

I wish you good fortune.


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## TX-SC

Her responses are quickly becoming irrelevant. The question is, what are YOU going to do? 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## eric1

bremik said:


> I agree with this and am trying to decide how to deal with it. As she said herself when I wrote her the letter - " I just thought we would be able to work through this like we always have but now I am not sure we even can or will". To me she already knows my attitude is different and sadly she made that comment BEFORE I found out she was still communicating with jay which in itself raises many questions.
> 
> 
> 
> I am trying to heed the advice to keep moving forward. I don't know for sure what my next steps are if she convinces me she is in but I am hoping how she says it and what she does will give me answers.
> 
> ?
> 
> I didn't get in last night until 11 so I never got to talk to her. I was texting her today and asked her why she never has brought up why her and jay are still communicating. She didn't answer right away but did answer an unrelated text so I resent it again later and put in "are you waiting to answer this?" She responded "I guess- not sure what you want me to do about it." To me she is trying to maintain the usual pattern so I responded " I don't want jay in my life and you can't seem to do without him in yours so the question is what do you want to do about it?" Haven't gotten an answer yet




Jesus Christ. Stop texting. 

Give her the papers. If she wants to stay married to you she has to convince you they're not 1. In touch and 2. Have never had an inappropriate relationship.

She's not an idiot. She's just playing you. You need to say like eight words then shut the F up for the next 24 hours. Like literally.


----------



## doconiram

OP- no answer, is an answer. It can be a tough one to accept, but it is what it is.


She picked Jay. Sorry man.

Peace


----------



## Tatsuhiko

bremik said:


> As she said herself when I wrote her the letter - " I just thought we would be able to work through this like we always have but now I am not sure we even can or will".


Not sure how you kept a straight face. She's basically telling you that every X years, you should expect to rediscover her relationship with Jay, then get over it. Until you rediscover it again, and the cycle starts anew. But this time it's different. Because of your more extreme behavior this time, she might not _allow_ you the privilege of working through it.

She's very immature and manipulative.


----------



## Evinrude58

She doesn't know your attitude is different. It's been 25 years of threats. I don't know that your attitude is different.

You're going to have to prove it to her. Probably by divorcing her. I honestly think she is so entitled and spoiled that she thinks she is invincible. 

She DOES NOT want to turn loose of her "buds" like jay and Steve and billybob, or whoever.
She's going to fight you in that, maybe even show you who is wearing the pants and divorce you.

All you have to do at this point is make up your own mind about whether or not you've had enough of your wife putting you last (and someone else first).

I hate to tell you to divorce her. You may pine for her for years if you're not truly ready to let her go.

Are you a piner or a move-on-er?

Your call. A tough one.
You've got more riding on this than we do.


----------



## Decorum

Bremik,

Your wife and Jay are players, and you have been played.

There is a code and a mindset that is second nature to players.

Her looks and personality fit you, her natural instincts as a mother are ok, but her character, and behavior as a life partner have been despicable.

When you meet a quality woman you will look back, and see how dishonorable your wife has been.


I helped raise our 4 children to become competent, contributing adults (The youngest is 21). I know the commitment, and character it takes. I respect what you have done with your kids 100%. 

You are twice the man that POS Jay is.

Unfortunately Jay and your wife are cut from the same cloth.

The disregard and disrespect they have shown to you and your marriage are almost breathtaking.

I don't know how you could ever take her, "I'm so sorry" seriously again.

I really wish you and your kids well.

Take care!


----------



## turnera

bremik said:


> This is all spot on! The two things that worry me are 1) How does she acknowledge what she has done if she hasn't for 23 years? And assuming this is what happens how do I deal with this without coaching her? 2) Any child in trouble won't normally go for the biggest branch at spanking time and I have a feeling my wife is highly likely to offer crumbs so again how do I deal with this without coaching her?


You're missing the whole point.

The point is that you have to be REALLY willing to walk away from her if she doesn't respect you. And she has to be aware that you're willing to walk away.

Your so-called plan is just yet another pick-me dance. And it's weak weak weak. Trust me, she'll smell it. And give you even more bull****.

Let us know when you are REALLY ready to walk away.


----------



## Decorum

turnera said:


> You're missing the whole point.
> 
> The point is that you have to be REALLY willing to walk away from her if she doesn't respect you. And she has to be aware that you're willing to walk away.
> 
> Your so-called plan is just yet another pick-me dance. And it's weak weak weak. Trust me, she'll smell it. And give you even more bullsh*t.
> 
> Let us know when you are REALLY ready to walk away.



I didn't want to say it since everyone was liking his plan. (I should have though.) 

I think this is just more of the same.

Just another round of placate you and catch me if you can.

"I'm really serious now, I really mean it this time!"


----------



## Satya

When parents never truly exact permanent consequences with their children for bad behavior, try are often shocked later on when the grown children have such horrible issues with boundaries and lack of basic human respect. 

This is no different. She likely never suffered a real consequence in her life and @bremik, she couldn't have done any better than to find you so she'd never experience one. Please don't take offense. It's entirely within your power to change,but you need to start loving yourself more.


----------



## farsidejunky

Affaircare said:


> So @bremik, let me see if I understand correctly.
> 
> When you talk about the "Dance Steps" you're talking about that cycle that usually happens: she contacts and hides it and lies, you discover it and get angry, she cries and avoids it, you talk about it, she makes promises, you police her, she does not follow through and she contacts and hides it and lies.... That's roughly the OLD dance, right?
> 
> And you are trying to do a new dance, in other words looking at what you usually do and doing something different--ANYTHING different.
> 
> And this time she hid it and lied yet again, and you discovered it and got angry yet again, and she has cried and avoided it yet again.... so part of your change was to not be the one to bring it up and talk about it. And using that technique, you discovered that the last 3 weeks, she has avoided it and not made any attempt to address the issue, bring it up, make it right, or fix things between you.
> 
> During the 3 weeks of not talking about it, you took that time instead to read the divorce laws in your state to gain knowledge (knowledge is power!), and you took the time to come up with a plan in the event that you do divorce, and you took the time to meet with an attorney and find out if you plan was realistic. Now you know what life might look like if you do choose to divorce, and you have the price it would cost to file, and a little tip about filing in another county to make life a little easier, legally.
> 
> So now, after 3 weeks of not talking about it, your plan is to start the talk, but this time tell her where you're at, what you think and feel, how you have LITERALLY NO TRUST because her actions and lies have destroyed it, and the boundary you are putting around YOURSELF: namely you will no longer tolerate a life that in any way includes Jay or any of the gang associated with Jay. And you aren't telling her what she "has to" do but rather giving her a chance to think about IF she wants to rebuild your trust, and if she does, what she's willing to do ON HER OWN, without you policing her or being her daddy. In a way you're saying "It's on you. You destroyed this, so indicate if you're willing to do the work necessary to rebuild. If you are, then what ACTIONS are you going to take that I'll be able to see that will demonstrate trust WORTHINESS?"
> 
> I agree that if you were to say to her "him or me" her response should be immediate. But then again, she's already been down this road and she responded by hiding her continued contact with him and lied to you about it! So she has one week to 1) be the one who initiates the repair discussion, and 2) be the one who has a plan "Here's what I plan to do to fix the mess I've made." Is that roughly it?
> 
> If so, bear two things in mind: 1) She may not be willing to rebuild. It may well be that she doesn't think she's done anything wrong, or she may not be mature enough to recognize that healthy adults do not carry on like teens. and 2) What she is willing to do may not be acceptable to you. I guarantee you that she will not want to lose the cushy life she has. She will not want to experience the consequences of her choices, because they hurt and are uncomfortable. But in order to REALLY FIX THIS she is going to have to experience some pain or loss. To truly repair this, she's going to have to lose some people she considers "friends" and that will feel sad to her. She's going to have to lose some privacy for a while to prove she is where she said she'd be, doing what she said she would, etc. See? If she offers crumbs as her plan, you are under no obligation to accept rugsweeping or blameshifting!


QFT.


----------



## Bremik

farsidejunky said:


> QFT.


Can only come up with one thing that means so thought better to ask- What does that mean?


----------



## rzmpf

bremik said:


> Can only come up with one thing that means so thought better to ask- What does that mean?


Quoted For Truth.


----------



## Decorum

bremik said:


> Can only come up with one thing that means so thought better to ask- What does that mean?


Bremik,
We have seen truly remorseful wives who pull out ALL the stops to save their marriages.

Your wife isn't one of them.


----------



## Malaise

Decorum said:


> Bremik,
> We have seen truly remorseful wives who pull out ALL the stops to save their marriages.
> 
> Your wife isn't one of them.


She reminds me of a teenager who answers questions with "Whatever"


----------



## Decorum

Malaise said:


> She reminds me of a teenager who answers questions with "Whatever"


So true!
Some wayward wives even though remorseful, (or at least regretful they got caught) still don't have what it takes to reconcile.


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> As she said herself when I wrote her the letter - " I just thought we would be able to work through this like we always have but now I am not sure we even can or will".


 Let me translate for you. When she says that she "just thought we would be able to work through this like we always have", what she is saying is that you have always backed down before, and that is what she is waiting for. When she says that "now I am not sure we even can or will", she is calling your bluff by telling you that she can not and will not backing down no matter what you do. This was a threat by her (you better back down again or else) and an answer to your question; Jay will always be in her life.



bremik said:


> I don't want jay in my life and you can't seem to do without him in yours so the question is what do you want to do about it?" Haven't gotten an answer yet


 As I stated above, she already has answered that question, not just in her last reply, but time and again throughout your marriage. She just has not spelled it out for you.


----------



## Cynthia

turnera said:


> You're missing the whole point.
> 
> The point is that you have to be REALLY willing to walk away from her if she doesn't respect you. And she has to be aware that you're willing to walk away.
> 
> Your so-called plan is just yet another pick-me dance. And it's weak weak weak. Trust me, she'll smell it. And give you even more bull****.
> 
> Let us know when you are REALLY ready to walk away.


Unfortunately I have to agree with this 100%. 

You are trying to help her repent. If she were repentant she wouldn't need your help. You seriously cannot help someone repent. It comes from within. It requires a heart change. She has done absolutely nothing to show you that she has had a heart change. She won't even answer your simple, easy questions. If she has to think about it that's all you need to know. 

Rebuilding trust is not the same as repentance.

In the past, she gave you the answers you wanted and then hid what she never quit doing. This has been ongoing for 25 years and you still believe a word she says?! What! It is not hard to hide an affair. You've repeatedly seen that when you uncovered a portion of her hidden life. Very few affairs are ever discovered. Most people hide them easily and their spouses never know. She's had plenty of time to practice and is showing no true remorse, so trusting her is misguided.


----------



## Bremik

rzmpf said:


> Quoted For Truth.


Thanks!


----------



## Bremik

I wanted to thank everyone for weighing in again. I know it feels like you are talking to a wall but I am reading and re-reading this thread. Not saying much because thinking about everything.

I did talk to her last night told her she had to come up with a plan and to this point she has left me no options.* No Choice* is correct in that I don't think she can come up with something herself. I told her to talk to her sister for guidance. We went round and round on jay. She doesn't see him as a threat, doesn't feel like she has communicated with him and has made improvement in how she handles herself. Has no recollection of how she got jays number or how he got hers. Admits she is scared to tell me things because I will get mad and I told her it isn't fair to not expect me to get mad about things that keep happening that never got resolved to begin with. I did not tell her I have seen a lawyer yet though I did tell her I have spoken with a few counselors and they said she has to fix the problems she has created not me. That's the bulk of it. Not going to deny that the crying gets to me but when she can't remember things I think should be easy to remember or tries to blame something on me it brings me back to the tasks at hand.

Not telling this to counter anything said on here just providing information.


----------



## sokillme

bremik said:


> Not going to deny that the crying gets to me


That's why she does it. She can play you like a piano. Why are you hiding the fact that you talked to a lawyer?


----------



## Affaircare

sokillme said:


> That's why she does it. She can play you like a piano. Why are you hiding the fact that you talked to a lawyer?


Actually I can answer that one. He's not hiding it--he's just not giving away strategy. Why show his hand before it's necessary? 
@bremik, 

It sounds to me like you told her where you are at: Having Jay and all the rest of that whole gang in your life is not okay with you and you've decided it will not continue. Her response was to defend staying in contact with Jay (she doesn't see him as a threat) and to cry (in an attempt to guilt you and make you go back to rugsweeping). 

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but it doesn't sound good. I'm not surprised, because she has never indicated she even recognizes the need to repent, much less a willingness to do so! But now you have said your piece, she knows where you stand and that the marriage is in trouble. 

I'd say now you think about what you want to do. 

It's likely to be one of two outcomes: either a) she demonstrates a surprising willingness to repent and change....or b) she offers crumbs and rugsweeping like she has offered in the past. I think the most likely outcome is b) because she has not done one thing that indicates even awareness of what considering what she's done as "wrong." If she doesn't see it as wrong, she can't very well sorrow for having done it and work diligently to change, can she?

So here's what you might want to consider while she has some time to think what she's going to do:

Do you want to just choose to live with this? I'm not saying this is a smart idea, but plenty of people choose to have an open marriage in order to keep what they have. 
If you choose to NOT live with this, what would be acceptable to you?
Since she has made promises in the past and completely NOT kept them, how is this time different?
If she offers crumbs or more rugsweeping, what will you do?
If she blames you, what will you do?
What would a good plan from her look like?
How will you recognize "same old same old" or crumbs?
What are you going to do differently?

You get the drift. Think NOW of what you want to do if ___, or ____, or ____ occur. And then when/if she does come to talk to you about her plan, you will have some pre-determined thoughts on what works for you and what does not.


----------



## TRy

Decorum said:


> The disregard and disrespect they have shown to you and your marriage are almost breathtaking.


The disregard and disrespect is not "almost breathtaking". It is in fact "breathtaking". For example, her going to an out of town conference where she does not see the OP all day, only for her to stand the OP up after the conference so that she can have dinner with and party with Jay all night, as the OP ate dinner alone, is them both disregarding and disrespecting the OP. The fact that they did this not just once, but every year until she just went to the conference without the OP, is breathtakingly disregarding and disrespectful of the OP. 

After 25 years, her disrespectful treatment of the OP for Jay is as reliable as Lucy pulling the ball away just as Charlie Brown is about to kick it, with her and Jay laughing about it just like Lucy. The wife disrespecting the OP every time that Jay requests gives Jay and the OP's wife a massive ego boost and a feeling of superiority over the OP. Good people get a sense of being on top by building themselves up. Jay and the OP's wife get their sense of being on top by putting the OP down. After all these years, she is not going to change her feelings of disrespect toward the OP now, as it is part of their established relationship. In her mind, if she allows the OP to stand up for himself, she will no longer be better than him.


----------



## Evinrude58

She's made it clear that Jay is a priority for 23 yrs.

Sadly, she's showing all the signs ofcintinuing that record.

She quits the job and quits jay, or it's the S.O.S. that it's always been.
Pretty simple.

I don't think she will quit either.


----------



## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> Actually I can answer that one. He's not hiding it--he's just not giving away strategy. Why show his hand before it's necessary?


OK I just hope he doesn't chicken out.


----------



## Cynthia

bremik said:


> I wanted to thank everyone for weighing in again. I know it feels like you are talking to a wall but I am reading and re-reading this thread. Not saying much because thinking about everything.


This is good, but I don't think you really understand what your wife is telling you and that is the most important thing. I read what you wrote below and think you are missing what she's telling you. @TRy did some interpretation for you earlier, which I thought was right on point.



bremik said:


> I did talk to her last night told her she had to come up with a plan and to this point she has left me no options.* No Choice* is correct in that I don't think she can come up with something herself. I told her to talk to her sister for guidance. We went round and round on jay.


 Stop engaging her. Tell her the deal and leave it at that. Either she accepts it and repents or she doesn't. This is not about what she thinks or wants. It is you telling her what you think and what you want. Instead you are letting her change the subject to what she thinks and wants. You will never get anywhere like that.



bremik said:


> She doesn't see him as a threat,...


He poses no threat to her, so why would she see him as a threat. As above, this is not about what she thinks. You are telling her that having Jay in her life is a threat to the marriage, because you are seriously looking into what it will take to divorce her over this. I wouldn't tell her right now that you've seen an attorney. I wouldn't do that until the papers were drawn up and she had been served. Then she'll obviously find out for herself. If there is anything that will change her heart, it's being served divorce papers. I don't think that will work either, but you have to be willing to let the marriage go if you want any hope of saving it.

That doesn't mean it's savable, but if it is, this is the only thing that's going to get you there. If she doesn't think that she will lose her marriage over Jay and that she has a real change of heart, you will never be able to trust her. At this point, I don't know how you could possibly trust her when she has abused your trust to this level with her lying and hiding for years on end. She has years of experience and from what you have posted she appears to be hard hearted.



bremik said:


> She doesn't see him as a threat, doesn't feel like she has communicated with him and has made improvement in how she handles herself.


 This doesn't matter. All that matters is that it's a deal breaker for you and she doesn't seem to recognize that on any level. Have you told her point blank that you are going to divorce her if you don't believe she has completely severed contact with Jay and had a major heart change about her lack of transparency, lack trustworthiness, and disrespect for you as her husband and as a person? If you haven't done that, you have not been clear with her about the seriousness of these issues. It's not only Jay that's the problem. It is her lack of good character. Does she know that?



bremik said:


> Has no recollection of how she got jays number or how he got hers. Admits she is scared to tell me things because I will get mad and I told her it isn't fair to not expect me to get mad about things that keep happening that never got resolved to begin with.


 This is ridiculous. The problem is three-fold. 
#1 is that she did something destructive to your marriage. Something that is a deal breaker for most people and leads to divorce.
#2 Is that she hid it from you.
#3 Is that she is unrepentant.



bremik said:


> I did not tell her I have seen a lawyer yet though I did tell her I have spoken with a few counselors and they said she has to fix the problems she has created not me. That's the bulk of it. Not going to deny that the crying gets to me but when she can't remember things I think should be easy to remember or tries to blame something on me it brings me back to the tasks at hand.


Blame shifting is a clear indication that she is unrepentant. She is not owning her transgressions against you. Her crying could mean any number of things, but so far there is no indication that it means she regrets her behavior or that she's going to stop. Apparently it upsets her when you get angry at the horrible things she does. Can you see how ridiculous it is that she blames you being upset as the problem rather than her behavior that is upsetting you being the problem?

Don't tell her you have seen an attorney. Don't discuss any of this further with her. Just file for divorce and go from there.


----------



## Cynthia

Sorry I forgot to put in the the whole point of my last post, which is: 
She does not see this as a problem she has to deal with. She sees this as you having a problem and she is explaining to you that this is your problem, not hers and that you need to calm down and get back to normal. That is what it appears to me that she is saying to you. And that is why we all think that she is a hopeless case. She doesn't recognize that she is the problem and she needs to change. If she doesn't have that revelation and heart change, this will never end. If Jay were to go up in a flaming wreck tomorrow, she would probably find someone to replace him.


----------



## Marc878

bremik said:


> I wanted to thank everyone for weighing in again. I know it feels like you are talking to a wall but I am reading and re-reading this thread. Not saying much because thinking about everything.
> 
> I did talk to her last night told her she had to come up with a plan and to this point she has left me no options.* No Choice* is correct in that I don't think she can come up with something herself. I told her to talk to her sister for guidance. We went round and round on jay. She doesn't see him as a threat, doesn't feel like she has communicated with him and has made improvement in how she handles herself. *Has no recollection of how she got jays number or how he got hers.* Admits she is scared to tell me things because I will get mad and I told her it isn't fair to not expect me to get mad about things that keep happening that never got resolved to begin with. I did not tell her I have seen a lawyer yet though I did tell her I have spoken with a few counselors and they said she has to fix the problems she has created not me. That's the bulk of it. Not going to deny that the crying gets to me but when she can't remember things I think should be easy to remember or tries to blame something on me it brings me back to the tasks at hand.
> 
> Not telling this to counter anything said on here just providing information.


Cmon man! You don't put someone's phone number in your phone under a disguised name and not remember. She playing you like she has for years and you're doing what? 

You can't seem to get past the talking stage which is why you're still dealing with this years later. Better wake up!!!!


----------



## Bremik

sokillme said:


> That's why she does it. She can play you like a piano. Why are you hiding the fact that you talked to a lawyer?


Not trying to hide it just trying to read her. If I tell her up front about the lawyer she is going to guilt trip cry on me so I would rather see what she does with what I have said. If nothing then I tell her about the lawyer


----------



## Bremik

Marc878 said:


> Cmon man! You don't put someone's phone number in your phone under a disguised name and not remember. She playing you like she has for years and you're doing what?
> 
> You can't seem to get past the talking stage which is why you're still dealing with this years later. Better wake up!!!![/QUOT
> 
> I am well aware of her disguising the phone number. She also told me it was the farm name but if I look up his number it shows up since at least 2014 and with his name not the farm- which I told her.
> 
> I am not trying to be stubborn to all of you- it is my way of letting go. When she tells me something far fetched or that I can confirm is untrue it is fortifying in my mind that she isn't going to change. These "talks" are not loud or angry just conversation back and forth. I even listed for her where she has continually chosen jay over me. So basically she tells me a lie or story and I call her out on it. If she tells me something like she can't remember when they exchanged new numbers I call her on it.
> 
> Not saying my process is normal but it its how I operate. Yes given my past I have to be careful not to get drawn in but the more she lies to me the harder it is. Surely some of you would understand that me talking to a lawyer was a big step and having that in my pocket is huge for me. All my roads are in front of me are open, I just choose which one I take. Being aware of and watching how she works this has been a huge help- that view I owe to all of you here


----------



## Affaircare

bremik said:


> Not trying to hide it just trying to read her. If I tell her up front about the lawyer she is going to guilt trip cry on me so I would rather see what she does with what I have said. If nothing then I tell her about the lawyer


Nope, @bremik, that's not correct. If you "tell her about the lawyer" then you are using it as a threat to make her do what you want her to do. She is allowed to make a deeply stupid choice, remember? 

If she does nothing or comes back with a proposal that is not acceptable to you, the next step would be filling out the actual paperwork. Then you retain the attorney to file the papers for you. Then you have her served. If she does not want to be adversarial, then all she'd have to do at that point is "not respond" and the court would order what you filed. The end.


----------



## Bremik

Affaircare said:


> Nope, @bremik, that's not correct. If you "tell her about the lawyer" then you are using it as a threat to make her do what you want her to do. She is allowed to make a deeply stupid choice, remember?
> 
> If she does nothing or comes back with a proposal that is not acceptable to you, the next step would be filling out the actual paperwork. Then you retain the attorney to file the papers for you. Then you have her served. If she does not want to be adversarial, then all she'd have to do at that point is "not respond" and the court would order what you filed. The end.


Thank you for the correction!


----------



## Marc878

bremik said:


> Not trying to hide it just trying to read her. If I tell her up front about the lawyer she is going to guilt trip cry on me so I would rather see what she does with what I have said. *If nothing then I tell her about the lawyer*


More talk is just trying to manipulate with words. This is where you always end up.

You've taught her many times that it's meaningless and you just get more of the same.

She's well aware of your codependency and unwillingness to let go. She's used it against you for years.

Wake up


----------



## thenub

Bremik tell your wife that jay is no longer a threat to your marriage as you have decided she would be happier with him therefore in order for you, her husband who wants her to be happy, you have filed for divorce so she can be free to live her fantasy out in the open instead of sneaking around and hiding it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
I have given this considerable thought and I offer this for your consideration. It is what I believe is happening in your situation. Many, perhaps all, will vehemently disagree with this but I believe it to be true none the less as I am in a similar situation. First, your W is not a player, a manipulator nor any other form of diabolical mastermind, she is a child. Try this experiment and see if the results enlighten you. The next time you engage your wife in dialog picture the face of an 8 year old girl. Approach the whole conversation as if you were debating/arguing with an 8 year old. I feel confident that you will be startled with the realization that may ensue, tears and all.

Your W is not being deceptive when she says she sees no threat in the other man/men, she does not. She also does not understand your angst over her having playmates. You see the threat to your M because you assume the interactions are adult in nature but she sees the interactions as a child would. She also does not understand why you object to her playmates and is therefore ill equipped to formulate a resolution. I do not know her sister but if she is similar in cognitive ability to your W then she will offer little in the way of clarity for her.

You are faced with a very difficult reality. On the one hand your W is willing to sacrifice a large percentage of her paycheck to fund the dream of the farm, she participates in shows and conventions and desires to see the farm succeed. On the other hand she risks everything she has worked/is working for to see this OM? That is counterintuitive. Why would someone sacrifice for and put effort into something only to sabotage it? If her dream of the farm is real then her desire for the OM cannot be and vice versa for it would be impossible to sustain both long term, they can not both exist simultaneously as evidenced by your latest actions.

Therefore it is logical to conclude that her "desire" for the OM, in any capacity other than playmate, is self defeating and futile. Why would someone engage in such futility? Assuming this is true then the problem becomes your perception of this circumstance which differs from the reality of it in her mind. So then, it falls to you, as the adult, to either accept the situation for what it is or to try and modify her behavior by whatever means you can. I have spent many years doing the latter and have finally met with some success I believe because of two factors. One is that I have repeatedly, using many methods, examples and comparisons, demonstrated and proven, in a way she can recognize, that her behavior was indeed errant and two, the fact that she has matured over several decades, albeit minimally.

I did not fully realize how "worse" things could be when I vowed but I did give my word. Regrettably, now you must face that same decision. I did what was right for me, you must do what is right for you. I wish you well as you decide.


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> Admits she is scared to tell me things because I will get mad and I told her it isn't fair to not expect me to get mad about things that keep happening that never got resolved to begin with.


When she tells you that she is scared to tell you things because you "will get mad", you need to tell her that her knowing that you will get mad about something, is her acknowledging that she knew that what she was doing was wrong, but made the decision to disrespect you and do it with Jay anyways, with the intent to lie to you about it later; also reminder her that a lie by omission is still a lie, and that each of these lies teams her and Jay as the "us" in this secret against you as the outsider. You as her spouse should never be the outsider. This is core marriage vows 101 stuff that she is breaking.


----------



## TRy

NoChoice said:


> She also does not understand your angst over her having playmates.


 The OP does not have "angst over her having playmates". The OP has angst against her having a playmate that disrespects the OP and normal marriage boundaries, as well as encourages the OP's wife to disrespect the OP and to always put the OP second to him. This also incorrectly assumes that when the OP's wife turned off her phone and spent the night at Jay's house, or repeatedly ditches the OP for dinner so that she can have dinner with and party with Jay all night, that she is not also physically cheating with Jay. Additionally it ignores the obvious 25 year emotional affair that the OP's wife is having with Jay. Sorry but she understands full well what she is doing. I call bull to letting her off the hook by calling her a child. She is not a special snowflake. She is just a run of the mill cheater.


----------



## doconiram

At least you can tell when she is lying... her lips are moving.

The reason some of her BS sounds so far-fetched is because it is complete BS.

Sorry, but she is actually telling you quite clearly that she's not giving up Jay. Jay is her special priority. You are just a casualty.


----------



## Malaise

TRy said:


> *When she tells you that she is scared to tell you things because you "will get mad", you need to tell her that her knowing that you will get mad about something, is her acknowledging that she knew that what she was doing was wrong*, but made the decision to disrespect you and do it with Jay anyways, with the intent to lie to you about it later; also reminder her that a lie by omission is still a lie, and that each of these lies teams her and Jay as the "us" in this secret against you as the outsider. You as her spouse should never be the outsider. This is core marriage vows 101 stuff that she is breaking.


A tacit admission to cheating physically.


----------



## eric1

Good job on moving this forward, brem. Talk to her tonight and get the truth or file tomorrow.


----------



## Evinrude58

She is making it clear that she has no intention whatsoever of changing on her own.
Bremik, you have a wife that spends the night with other men and pretends she's there's nothing wrong with that.
She lies and communicates with him and meets up separately with him, and expects you to be ok with it.
If you're not ok with it, just file.
She is never going to "wise ip".

You still haven't gotten close to making up your mind. Don't file until you have, because once you file and divorce, she's off to the races. But, you should file. She's horrible.


----------



## TRy

Evinrude58 said:


> You still haven't gotten close to making up your mind. Don't file until you have, because once you file and divorce, she's off to the races.


 I agree with you that the OP should not file until he has made up his mind to really divorce her, but she may or may not be "off to the races" when the OP does file. In many cases where a cheated on spouse files with a clear and real intent to divorce, the cheater that has been cake eating for many years finally has to make a choice. In this case over the last 25 years, when given the choice between the OP and Jay, she was allowed to get away with picking both. No matter how great a husband the OP was, simple math tells you that the OP is less than the OP plus Jay (OP<OP+Jay). Once the OP files with real intent, in the mind of the wife the new math could very well be that the OP is greater than Jay (OP>Jay). The OP will never know the answer to the new math until he files with no intention of looking back. If he has the right mindset, he would not even consider thinking of possibly giving her another chance unless she does the hard work to earn that chance. And even with the hard work, she must understand that OP may not give her the gift of another chance. As the saying goes, the OP must be willing to really end the marriage, to have a real chance at saving it.


----------



## Evinrude58

I know how hard it is to make one's mind up, even when the right thing to do is very clear.
It's easy to second guess and want to backslide. 
I just hope Bremik makes his mind up. He's losing time he could have with a new life. 

I song think she loves him enough to choose him over her job and jay.

She won't be happy when he leaves, I'm confident. She will get used for sex (jay is quite obviously using her) and tossed aside by players--- constantly.
She will feel empty and alone for the first time. She won't have Bremik as her plan b ace-in-the - hole. She will have to support herself emotionally. 
Will she come back? Maybe.
Maybe not. She likes to play games. Likes to have male attention. She will probably let like the single life for a few months.

What Bremik has, he's not satisfied with. Only he can choose to satisfy himself.


----------



## Decorum

bremik said:


> I did talk to her last night ...
> 
> She...doesn't feel like she has communicated with him (WTF)
> 
> ...and
> 
> ...Has no recollection of how she got jays number


Ha ha ha ha! Read that through a couple times.

If I punch someone in the nose, and tell the police officer, "I dont feel like I punched him in the nose", what do you think he will say?

bremik, do you really fall for this stuff?

And btw little girls (like your wife) learn to be "players" with mommy and daddy, when they are divided or inconsistent, or emotionally immature, etc..


----------



## Satya

Aren't you getting tired of her childish games yet?


----------



## Bremik

Decorum said:


> Ha ha ha ha! Read that through a couple times.
> 
> If I punch someone in the nose, and tell the police officer, "I dont feel like I punched him in the nose", what do you think he will say?
> 
> bremik, do you really fall for this stuff?
> 
> And btw little girls (like your wife) learn to be "players" with mommy and daddy, when they are divided or inconsistent, or emotionally immature, etc..


No I don't fall for that. However it is not impossible to see that if she is "scared of getting in trouble" this would be a response in line with that notion. Not saying it is a right or wrong thought process just acknowledging both sides.


----------



## farsidejunky

If you can't handle that, you might as well lay down and let her have her way...again.



bremik said:


> If I tell her up front about the lawyer she is going to guilt trip cry on me...


----------



## Bremik

TRy said:


> I agree with you that the OP should not file until he has made up his mind to really divorce her, but she may or may not be "off to the races" when the OP does file. In many cases where a cheated on spouse files with a clear and real intent to divorce, the cheater that has been cake eating for many years finally has to make a choice. In this case over the last 25 years, when given the choice between the OP and Jay, she was allowed to get away with picking both. No matter how great a husband the OP was, simple math tells you that the OP is less than the OP plus Jay (OP<OP+Jay). Once the OP files with real intent, in the mind of the wife the new math could very well be that the OP is greater than Jay (OP>Jay). The OP will never know the answer to the new math until he files with no intention of looking back. If he has the right mindset, he would not even consider thinking of possibly giving her another chance unless she does the hard work to earn that chance. And even with the hard work, she must understand that OP may not give her the gift of another chance. As the saying goes, the OP must be willing to really end the marriage, to have a real chance at saving it.


Isn't this still using divorce to force her to make a move? Even how you wrote this it seems like the back door is being left open "just in case". Shouldn't a divorce in this situation be the end of any possibility of ANYTHING?


----------



## rzmpf

bremik said:


> Isn't this still using divorce to force her to make a move? Even how you wrote this it seems like the back door is being left open "just in case". Shouldn't a divorce in this situation be the end of any possibility of ANYTHING?


It's not about forcing her, it's about seeing if she is capable and wanting to really change her behaviour to stay married. If YOU want to stay married or at least see a chance under certain circumstances.

You decide if there is an open backdoor. Right now you show her that the frontdoor is open like it has always been. If you just want D to be the end of it, file, have her served and don't look back. Some people want to give their WS a last chance, some don't. What do you want?

If you are afraid you will be guilt tripped if you tell her about the lawyer, what do you think will happen if she gets served? Will you falter then and halt the D?


----------



## eric1

To be technical, filing for divorce is effectively you saying "I have chosen unconditionally to not live in these circumstances any longer and I do not have the faith that you are currently operating on a path where this is likely". 

Then there is a long period between that an the actual divorce in which anything can happen. However the key is "YOU ARE CURRENTLY" - once you file for divorce it's basically out of your hands. She has to make the effort to convince you that these steps are being taken, in an environment where even if she does do that it doesn't mean you'll change your mind (a sign of True Remorse)


----------



## Evinrude58

You want her to do x,y,z. She doesn't want to do it.

You give her a consequence-- divorce. She wants to stay married, she gives you what you want (or don't want, in this case. You don't want Jay). She has no choice. 

Fact is, she may choose divorce. Good chance, I think. Who knows.
What do YOU think Bremik? Do you think she will quit her job and cut Jay and his cronies out of her life? Will she be able to live without the ego kibbles they give her on a daily basis? Will she be able to live without the parties and overnight stays with Jay and friends?
Do YOU think she is having sex with Jay when she meets up with him on faraway trips, absent YOU?
Does Jay's wife know he meets up with your wife and parties and allows her to stay overnight with him?


OR, do you think your wife is so selfish, her love so lacking, that she would rather lose her marriage to you than lose Jay and cronies?

I think you should file for divorce. I think if she doesn't cut these guys out of her life, she doesn't really love you and will eventually leave the marriage anyway. I think that if she is unwilling to get these guys out of her life, then you are better off going your own separate way.
I also think that you simply want JAY OUT OF YOUR LIFE, and love your wife. Sadly, the wife and Jay seem to be a group deal. After all, she's been with him for 23 YEARS. For 23 years, you have tolerated this. Are you truly at the end of tolerating this?

Until you truly decide, she's going to be able to tell that you haven't decided and don't really mean it. She does KNOW you, after all. She's your wife. 
And man, she is has been playing you like fiddle for 23 years. The queen of Bremik manipulation!

You're in a tough spot.


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> No I don't fall for that. However it is not impossible to see that if she is "scared of getting in trouble" this would be a response in line with that notion. Not saying it is a right or wrong thought process just acknowledging both sides.


Bremik, all cheaters lie because they are "scared of getting in trouble". You "Not saying it is a right or wrong thought process" is the indecisive thought process that has allowed Jay to stay in your marriage as both Jay and your wife get off on disrespecting you. News flash: lying to your spouse about your secret relationship with another man is wrong plain and simple; there is no side where this is OK.

You appear to be losing momentum as you look for ways to delay taking action. This why this has gone on for almost 25 years.


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> Isn't this still using divorce to force her to make a move? Even how you wrote this it seems like the back door is being left open "just in case". Shouldn't a divorce in this situation be the end of any possibility of ANYTHING?


 It is all about intent when you file. Did you notice that I said to only file if you intend to file and not look back? If you file with this intent, you are not filing with the intent to manipulate her, but because you have had enough of the cheating, always being second to Jay, and of openly being disrespected by them. That being said, that does not preclude you from the possiblility of later changing your mind if the circumstances change. I was just sharing that possibility with you, but even said that you would be under no obligation to give her another chance. It is just a fact that in being really willing to end a marriage, that the possibility of really saving the marriage may come to exist, and I wanted you to know that.


----------



## Decorum

bremik said:


> No I don't fall for that. However it is not impossible to see that if she is "scared of getting in trouble" this would be a response in line with that notion. Not saying it is a right or wrong thought process just acknowledging both sides.


And that is different than every cheating wife who lies, because?

It is painful to watch you gaslight yourself.


morituri posted this in 2011 I think, but it is a classic.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go.html#post306559
.
.
.


----------



## Decorum

Does anyone remember the member, solid poster, whose wife broke NC after many years because she had been good for so long and said he didn't pose a threat?

I think he had lord in his name?

Lived in California maybe?

He had a thread I thought was called, "Just let them go" as well.


----------



## anchorwatch

Decorum said:


> Does anyone remember the member, solid poster, whose wife broke NC after many years because she had been good for so long and said he didn't pose a threat?
> 
> I think he had lord in his name?
> 
> Lived in California maybe?
> 
> He had a thread I thought was called, "Just let them go" as well.


I do remember @marduk's thread is what you described... Need Honest Advice: Am I Crazy


----------



## Decorum

anchorwatch said:


> I do remember @marduk's thread is what you described... Need Honest Advice: Am I Crazy


That's him anchorwatch thank you.

The thread I recall my be gone.

OP his story may still be helpful to you.

I really wish you well.
Take care.


----------



## Bremik

Decorum said:


> That's him anchorwatch thank you.
> 
> The thread I recall my be gone.
> 
> OP his story may still be helpful to you.
> 
> I really wish you well.
> Take care.


I read thread today- thank you. I see the similarities good point


----------



## Vex

Decorum said:


> That's him anchorwatch thank you.
> 
> The thread I recall my be gone.
> 
> OP his story may still be helpful to you.
> 
> I really wish you well.
> Take care.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html

Is this the thread from marduk you were talking about? Both his and morituri's thread helped me a lot. I even copied their posts to my phone a while back to read every now and then.


----------



## Bibi1031

bremik said:


> I read thread today- thank you. I see the similarities good point






Both of those members had to file and end their marriages. It's what needs to be done because the marriage had more than just two in those marriages. Yours is the same OP. 25 years later and you are still dragging your feet to get out of the dysfunction. Maybe it is all you have learned. 

It's up to you to end this or live with more than two in your marriage. Your call, not your wife`s or Jay's and cronies. [


----------



## Chaparral

Filing for divorce does not mean its final. She will still have plenty of time to come clean and fix her mess if she wants too.

It does mean you have non-negotiable boundaries and puts the outcome on her to agree or not.


----------



## MattMatt

*Moderator Warning*:-

Please be respectful when addressing other TAM members.

This might be acceptable:-









This, on the other hand, is _never_ acceptable:-


----------



## Bremik

MattMatt said:


> *Moderator Warning*:-
> 
> Please be respectful when addressing other TAM members.
> 
> This might be acceptable:-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This, on the other hand, is _never_ acceptable:-


Did I miss something?


----------



## MattMatt

bremik said:


> Did I miss something?


Possibly!


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> Did I miss something?


Yes you did. For the last almost 25 years. But then again, that is why you are here.


----------



## Decorum

Chaparral said:


> Filing for divorce does not mean its final. She will still have plenty of time to come clean and fix her mess if she wants too.
> 
> It does mean you have non-negotiable boundaries and puts the outcome on her to agree or not.


Bears repeating!!


----------



## Bremik

Decorum said:


> Bears repeating!!



How would that thought process be any different than a separation? Or give her the option of a no-contact separation or divorce to give a her a feel of what life is like without me in it?


----------



## Married but Happy

Decorum said:


> Bears repeating!!


----------



## Decorum

@Married but Happy
Are you disagreeing or being funny?

I could not find any pics for "bares repeating" that I felt I could post.


----------



## Marc878

bremik said:


> Decorum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bears repeating!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How would that thought process be any different than a separation? Or give her the option of a no-contact separation or divorce to give a her a feel of what life is like without me in it?
Click to expand...

She's experienced that. Why do you think jay is still in the picture?

More talk no action.


----------



## Married but Happy

Decorum said:


> @Married but Happy
> Are you disagreeing or being funny?
> 
> I could not find any pics for "bares repeating" that I felt I could post.


Just for fun, Decorum. No commentary intended.


----------



## Decorum

bremik said:


> How would that thought process be any different than a separation? Or give her the option of a no-contact separation or divorce to give a her a feel of what life is like without me in it?


There are only a few situations when I think separation, (especially to make someone miss you), makes sense, and when a wayward wife is still involved with the OM isn't one of them.

The salient point, (and one that is oft repeated here), which I wanted to highlight was, that filing for divorce isn't final until the divorce is final.

That changes the dynamic, and it's a dynamic that has been lacking sense your courting days.

Separation can be a cheating vacation, or can simply appear to be indecision.


----------



## Decorum

Married but Happy said:


> Just for fun, Decorum. No commentary intended.


Good one! :laugh:

I'm in the middle of my sleep cycle for a 12 hour shift and I'm a bit slow ATM..


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> How would that thought process be any different than a separation? Or give her the option of a no-contact separation or divorce to give a her a feel of what life is like without me in it?


 As I have said before, it is all about intent. My recommendation to you has been to file for divorce and to not look back. If the situation changes, you have the option but not the obligation to look back and to give her another chance, but that should not be your intent when you file. Filing for separation on the other hand, is by definition looking back because it is a process of giving her another chance. This will be perceived by her as weakness by you. In your case she may view the separation as allowing her freedom from your restrictions on Jay because your marriage is on a break, while viewing you as still willing to take her back.


----------



## Bremik

Decorum said:


> There are only a few situations when I think separation, (especially to make someone miss you), makes sense, and when a wayward wife is still involved with the OM isn't one of them.
> 
> The salient point, (and one that is oft repeated here), which I wanted to highlight was, that filing for divorce isn't final until the divorce is final.
> 
> That changes the dynamic, and it's a dynamic that has been lacking sense your courting days.
> 
> Separation can be a cheating vacation, or can simply appear to be indecision.


According to the lawyer I talked to it will take 41 days for a dissolution to go through in Ohio. The way I want it set up and what I think she would agree to streamlines it I guess. I was always under the impression it would take a good part of the year but he said only if it is contested. 

Don't know if that changes anyone's view on this


----------



## anchorwatch

The only view that counts is yours, not any others. 

Best


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> According to the lawyer I talked to it will take 41 days for a dissolution to go through in Ohio. The way I want it set up and what I think she would agree to streamlines it I guess. I was always under the impression it would take a good part of the year but he said only if it is contested.


 If she gives you everything that you want in the divorce, and your intent is really to divorce, you would be happy that it was uncontested. That being said, it is doubtful that she will let you get everything that you want, unless you asked for too little, so it will probably be contested.


----------



## Bremik

TRy said:


> If she gives you everything that you want in the divorce, and your intent is really to divorce, you would be happy that it was uncontested. That being said, it is doubtful that she will let you get everything that you want, unless you asked for too little, so it will probably be contested.


I am extremely comfortable with what I want for a divorce and my lawyer said she would be a fool not to take it and didn't try to talk me out of it. I really don't see her contesting it


----------



## eric1

I'm confused... you're looking at timetables for divorce. But you're not confronting her. There needs to be a simplification of this process, and soon. She needs to know that divorce is on the table, you need the full truth about her alleged infidelity and you need to clearly articulate what your boundaries are.

It's a five minute conversation. What's stopping you?


----------



## Evinrude58

Bremik,

If you file, you should move on and truly divorce her. IF you keep any hope whatsoever of her returning, it will keep you in a limbo state just like a separation. Don't do that to yourself. If you file, please file with a mindset of absolute certitude that you are done. 
No matter what she says, what she is doing is wrong and she knows it's wrong. She can spin it like he's just a friend all day, but even if he was just a friend (and I DO NOT believe that's all he is), she puts her "friend(s)" at a greater priority than her husband. And that is just flat out unacceptable as you have observed. 
There should never be a person that comes ahead of one's spouse. She has been putting Jay ahead of you and openly disrespecting you for 23 years. You are not some jealous husband that can't cope with his wife having a friend like your wife is going to portray you. You are a husband that is fed up with his wife putting him last, disrespecting her husband, going on dates with her male "friends" and spending the night with him, getting dry humped by co-workers, etc. You have tried to explain to her the problem for 23 years. She has failed to listen. If you are truly fed up and had enough, I think you are totally 100% justified in divorcing her if that's what you decide.

You won't be able to do anything about her saying you are unreasonably jealous of her male friends as she is sure to do. She'll try to humiliate you further by saying all kinds of bull CRAP that will portray YOU as a horrible husband. EXPECT IT, should you file and divorce her. That's why you need to go NO CONTACT, totally move on with no hope of reconciling, and should she actually be contrite and change, you can consider trying to start over. But, if you intend on having a marriage that won't leave you in misery on a regular basis, you need to kill this "marriage" you have now and start over with her. I doubt she wants that. She obviously LOVES attention from other men, and once she tastes some freedom, you can bet she will be all about the sex with other men thing.

JMO


----------



## Affaircare

@bremik, 

As I see it, today's the day. 

It is on her shoulders to come to you and initiate a conversation about how she plans to eliminate others interfering in your marriage. She's had a week to think about it and come up with what she wants to and is willing to do. She knows it's on her to START the convo--and if she does not bring it up, then you know her answer is that she doesn't want to change anything and will continue on as she always has (aka "I'm sweeping it under the rug, I'll stay in contact more secretively, you'll discover it and be hurt again, and I'll sweep it under the rug again...rinse repeat). @bremik, saying nothing means she doesn't have to courage to say to your face that she intends to continue to cheat. 

So remember: fidelity is giving 100% of your affection, loyalty and companionship ONLY TO YOUR SPOUSE. If she gives a portion of her affection to any other man, if she gives a portion of her loyalty to a man other than you, and if she gives a portion of her companionship to some other male person (Jay or anyone else) IT IS INFIDELITY and she is saying she wants to continue to actively commit adultery. 

Now...she may be quite amenable and lovely to be with on all other counts, but it's up to you to decide if you are going to accept ongoing adultery or not. If you are (which would not be my choice but some people do choose it and you are free to do so as well), then accept that your marriage is an open marriage and find your joy in life through other avenues. If you are NOT (that is to say, if you are going to say you will only have a life partner who is faithful and loyal to you), then accept that she is not willing to be faithful and loyal to only you and file for divorce. 

I do understand that if you file uncontested divorce in the state of Ohio, that it could only take 41 days for it to be final. That doesn't really change my mind. Either you accept something or you do not. If you do not accept something, then it seems reasonable to have reality align quickly. But consider this, @bremik, it is exceedingly rare for two individuals to mutually agree to everything in a divorce, because if they were that agreeable they wouldn't be divorcing! Even if your offer is amazing, it's very likely she'll fight it or disagree even if for no other reason than that she doesn't want the divorce! (After all, she has YOU to take care of the responsible stuff, and A BOYFRIEND to take care of the "fun" and "buzz"--who'd want to lose that setup?) And even if she DOES agree, court rarely EVER goes as quickly as it could. By statute it would have to be 41 days or whatever, so what they do is look at "the first available date after the 41 days .... and oh look the first open slot is 30 days after that for a pre-conference...and then it have to do that 3 times (each 30 days apart)...and then the order has to be at least 30 days past the final pre-conference so ... okay that would be 45 days after that." See what I mean? Yes, uncontested divorces are faster and the easiest to finish, but even they don't really get done from start to finish in 41 days. It might be most realistic to guess probably within 6 months if she never, ever disagrees, and honestly once she realizes she's losing her comfy @bremik, she WILL disagree...to something!! 

The main focus here @bremik, is that you need to be a man of your word. You SAID 'him or me' and she picked him and was nice enough to you that you settled down. You've been saying one thing and doing another for long enough that now she no longer believes what you say. You NEED to follow through. 

And again, I'm not telling you which way to decide (open marriage or divorce)--I'm just saying that whichever you do choose, MAKE A DECISION and then consciously know that you will experience both the costs and the benefits of whatever you decide. ACT. Okay?


----------



## TRy

bremik said:


> I am extremely comfortable with what I want for a divorce and my lawyer said she would be a fool not to take it and didn't try to talk me out of it. I really don't see her contesting it


 If your "lawyer said she would be a fool not to take it", then you are yet again being the Mr. Nice Guy and asking for too little. Your lawyer sized you up as suffering from "Nice Guy Syndrome", and knew better than to try to talk you out of it. You should read "No More Mr. Nice Guy". Had you read this and acted on it, Jay would have already been out of your life.


----------



## Evinrude58

Why can't you ask your wife this:

Why did you ditch me on trips to go out with another man and spend the night with him.

Her reply: spin, distract, blaneshift, minimize. She will NOT say she's sorry. She's not.

So do you intend to change jobs and discontinue any and all communications and stop the relationship with jay and any other make friends TODAY?

Her response: everything BUT a yes. She will minimize, act hurt, cry, make excuses not to end things with jay.

You: DEMAND an answer.

She will say no, she's not going to quit, she is not going to end it. Or say she will not end it with jay-- he's just a friend, after all. She's entitled to friends, she will say.
Or say she will end with jay, and just take it underground like she has vkitrr
You then tell her you've seen a lawyer and will file for divorce, and she can have her "friend".

Then leave the room, and don't speak to her.
She will cry. So what. Crocodile tears.

It's simple. Don't be afraid.


----------



## Decorum

bremik said:


> According to the lawyer I talked to it will take 41 days for a dissolution to go through in Ohio. The way I want it set up and what I think she would agree to streamlines it I guess. I was always under the impression it would take a good part of the year but he said only if it is contested.
> 
> Don't know if that changes anyone's view on this





anchorwatch said:


> The only view that counts is yours, not any others.
> 
> Best


You are at a decision point.

Its your life.


----------



## Affaircare

Decorum said:


> You are at a decision point.
> 
> Its your life.


QFT!!! (Quoted for truth!!!) 

As I've been saying all along, other adult people are allowed to make decisions that I think are bad decisions. Other adult people are allowed to do something stupid or do something irrational. The fact is, you may choose that you like your life and your wife ENOUGH to put up with periodically having the lies and hurt and covering up in your life. Dude--that is totally your choice! You can do that. I'm not saying I would choose that or I'd agree, but as your mentally healthy, not co-dependent associate on a forum, I can tell you that just cuz it's not what I would do doesn't mean it's not something YOU would do! 

Here's the expectation, in a nutshell:

If you choose to keep things as they are because you are essentially happy on everything except this ONE THING--then consciously know that you are embracing letting your wife keep a secret "friend" on the side from whom she gets her emotional fulfillment--in exchange for all the other good things in your life (including getting along with her fairly well). In this case, since you made the choice to stay, I think folks would be pretty unlikely to sympathize when you write about the next time you find a secret, because YOU CHOSE IT. Make sense? If this is going to be your choice, I think it would be more emotionally effective to find a way to tolerate and adopt the lifestyle of an open marriage.

If you choose to NOT keep things as they are because you value yourself enough to have a life partner who gives you 100% or nothing--then consciously know that your wife does not want to give up her "secret" friends and so you will not be able to go along with HER. In this case, since you made the choice to go, you may feel afraid of the future because you have never done this before and don't know that the future will bring, but what you WILL know is that the only kind of person you'll ever have in your life is the type of person who will give you 100%. Also I suspect folks would be much more likely to reply sympathetically if you found something secret because you chose a life of openness and honesty. Make sense? If this is going to be your choice, I think it would be more emotionally effective to find a way to dis-entangle for your wife and learn how to live with a healthy, mature, honest partner.


----------



## eric1

Bremik,

Don't turtle up on us buddy.

What's going on?


----------



## Thorburn

Sorry if I missed it but is Bremik a dairy farmer? If he is I may have some guidance for him.


----------



## Cynthia

Thorburn said:


> Sorry if I missed it but is Bremik a dairy farmer? If he is I may have some guidance for him.


Yes, he is a dairy farmer.


----------



## BobSimmons

eric1 said:


> I'm confused... you're looking at timetables for divorce. But you're not confronting her. There needs to be a simplification of this process, and soon. She needs to know that divorce is on the table, you need the full truth about her alleged infidelity and you need to clearly articulate what your boundaries are.
> 
> It's a five minute conversation. What's stopping you?


Adds another 20 pages...


----------



## RWB




----------



## Satya

If he's a dairy farmer, he's probably very busy and processing it all in his downtime... Patience.


----------



## GusPolinski

RWB said:


>


lol wtf


----------



## Cynthia

Ahhh. Dairy humor.


----------



## thenub

CynthiaDe said:


> Ahhh. Dairy humor.




No kidding. It's "udderly" ridiculous. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Decorum

Bremik, you are looking for the peace you deserve.


----------



## Bremik

​


Decorum said:


> Bremik, you are looking for the peace you deserve.


What do you mean by that out of curiosity?


----------



## Decorum

bremik said:


> ​
> What do you mean by that out of curiosity?


It's Face value. Don't look any deeper. Harmony and sympathy are the essence of happiness in a relationship IMO.

Your wife is failing to render this to the relationship, big time!

If you don't mind, 1 Peter 3:1-8
"*In the same way, you wives*,... *You husbands in the same way*, ...*To sum up*,* ***all*** *of you *be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead*; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing."

I am not sure you believe you deserve it.


----------



## eric1

Hey Bremik - not going to lose you man, what's going on?


----------



## Decorum

.


----------



## Marc878

Bremik's life will be what he makes it. Some will stay no matter what. No one can alter or fix that.


----------



## Bremik

eric1 said:


> Hey Bremik - not going to lose you man, what's going on?


I appreciate you keeping on me. I didn't mean to be gone so long. Unfortunately I am still dwelling on what I should do. I know it is difficult to believe but we literally have had no time to talk at any length. We work away during the day and by the time chores are done at night we are eating supper at 9:30/10:00 and go to bed. Graduations and other events have taken the weekends and crops have been a bit of a challenge this year. Not trying to make excuses just telling all where I am at.

I have had some very good PM exchanges and as much as they help they make me think even more. I have half who think my wife is basically a child and just does dumb things and others who think she is a manipulative controller who only thinks of herself. Then there are those somewhere in between.

For me, I can't throw out a 28+ year relationship without being absolutely sure. I am probably more attracted to my wife now then when we dated. I have good times with her and like being with her. The biggest change I have noticed in the last 4-8 wks is the feeling I have of feeling like something has been lost or died between us. I am sure it has to do with finding out jay was still around and some of the way she has treated me but what it meansI don't know.
I am sorry for all the screaming, eye rolls or computers thrown for my answer but I just wanted to respond to those checking in. Page keeps locking up willl leave for now


----------



## turnera

So what have you been doing to become a stronger, more confident man?

Cos, you know, if you want to keep her and NOT deal with the same sh*t, you're going to have to improve YOU. So that she's scrambling to get to be with you.


----------



## Marc878

This is your life yo live.

My cousin who i grew up with is married to a serial cheater. Last count I heard was around 6 other men. One of his two sons is from an other man. I know of at least 4 she's had in his bed.

He used to get puffed up and threaten divorce but after number 4 or 5 he just rolls over and takes it now.

I guess it's worth it to him???

As long as you've lived with this instead of getting worked up maybe you change your strategy and just learn to live with it.

It's become who you are.

Sorry


----------



## Bremik

turnera said:


> So what have you been doing to become a stronger, more confident man?
> 
> Cos, you know, if you want to keep her and NOT deal with the same sh*t, you're going to have to improve YOU. So that she's scrambling to get to be with you.



I do need to improve me. I don't care about her scrambling to be with me if she doesn't want to be. I have been reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and I see where I try to be a pleaser. 

I am wanting to have a long talk with her after this weekend and see where she is at. We are through our busiest time for now so I can focus on this again and get a resolution. Still thinking about a separation for my sake to try to think clearer


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## Bremik

Marc878 said:


> This is your life yo live.
> 
> My cousin who i grew up with is married to a serial cheater. Last count I heard was around 6 other men. One of his two sons is from an other man. I know of at least 4 she's had in his bed.
> 
> He used to get puffed up and threaten divorce but after number 4 or 5 he just rolls over and takes it now.
> 
> I guess it's worth it to him???
> 
> As long as you've lived with this instead of getting worked up maybe you change your strategy and just learn to live with it.
> 
> It's become who you are.
> 
> Sorry


I am sure it has become a part of who I am and it may be the biggest problem as to why I can't sort this out in my head. I don't like it and I haven't accepted that jay is still around so that is what I am going with for now.

I don't think my situation is the same as your cousin's though you and others may be right in disagreeing


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## turnera

bremik said:


> I don't care about her scrambling to be with me if she doesn't want to be.


That was metaphorical. Meaning, you should be so confident, so attractive, so worth being around that she has no DOUBT you're the best she could ever get and everyone else (Jay) pales in comparison. But that stuff starts in YOUR head.


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## Marc878

bremik said:


> I am sure it has become a part of who I am and it may be the biggest problem as to why I can't sort this out in my head. I don't like it and I haven't accepted that jay is still around so that is what I am going with for now.
> 
> I don't think my situation is the same as your cousin's though you and others may be right in disagreeing


Its not the same except in principal. The acceptance.


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## TRy

bremik said:


> I can't throw out a 28+ year relationship without being absolutely sure. I am probably more attracted to my wife now then when we dated. I have good times with her and like being with her. The biggest change I have noticed in the last 4-8 wks is the feeling I have of feeling like something has been lost or died between us. I am sure it has to do with finding out jay was still around and some of the way she has treated me but what it meansI don't know.
> I am sorry for all the screaming, eye rolls or computers thrown for my answer but I just wanted to respond to those checking in.


 In response to you stating that "I can't throw out a 28+ year relationship without being absolutely sure", with you "finding out jay was still around", I ask what exactly are you unsure of? Are you unsure of the fact that every time that your wife and Jay have been given the chance to ditch you (leaving you to eat alone) so that they can party the night away together, they laugh at you and do so without remorse? Are you unsure of the fact that she is has been willing to lie to you so that she can keep her relationship with Jay? Are you unsure of the fact that she keeps as a friend someone that regularly encourages her to disrespect you with him? Are you unsure of the fact that Jay will always be her number 1 as she treats you like number 2? With her knowing that after all these years of her picking Jay over you that you will never take action, why exactly should your wife ever give up Jay?

Also, there is no need for "screaming, eye rolls or computers thrown", when all we have to do is quote back at you the title of this thread 'How does the sand taste bremik?".


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## Malaise

If you do nothing to change the situation, the situation will not change.


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## 3Xnocharm

bremik said:


> I do need to improve me. I don't care about her scrambling to be with me if she doesn't want to be. I have been reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and I see where I try to be a pleaser.
> *
> I am wanting to have a long talk with her after this weekend and see where she is at.* We are through our busiest time for now so I can focus on this again and get a resolution. Still thinking about a separation for my sake to try to think clearer


Yeah, leave it up to her, great idea. Where she is at, is where Jay is at.


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## Emerging Buddhist

3Xnocharm said:


> Yeah, leave it up to her, great idea. Where she is at, is where Jay is at.


Ouch...


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## farsidejunky

bremik said:


> I do need to improve me. I don't care about her scrambling to be with me if she doesn't want to be. I have been reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and I see where I try to be a pleaser.
> 
> I am wanting to have a long talk with her after this weekend and see where she is at. We are through our busiest time for now so I can focus on this again and get a resolution. Still thinking about a separation for my sake to try to think clearer


Still talking.


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## sokillme

Sometimes in life we get the relationships we deserve. As long as you accept it, you deserve it. This is no longer a case of you being deceived. You know exactly what you have signed up for. 

So what are you looking for her really? Sympathy? Do you just want people to say how bad it is so you can feel comforted? At least be honest about the purpose of posting. It's pretty obvious that you have no desire to change your situation. You obviously get something out of this dysfunctional relationship. Why not just accept it. Maybe you can open your marriage and you can have some fun too. I am not for that but at least it would be fair.


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## TRy

@bremik: Just because you have strong facts that reasonably indicate that it probably has been physical with Jay over the years (an emotional affair, regularly out all night parting with him, ghosting you when she is with him, and at least once spending the night with him), does not mean that you need to wait until you have 100% proof of the physical affair to be justified in taking action. Cheating is not the reason given for the majority of divorces. Most people divorce because of the way that their spouse neglects, deceives, or disrespects them; you have all that in spades. The bottom line is that they do not want to make someone a priority in their life that does not also make them a priority. You are not her priority; Jay is and always has been. That alone would be reason enough for most people.


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## Bremik

TRy said:


> @bremik: Just because you have strong facts that reasonably indicate that it probably has been physical with Jay over the years (an emotional affair, regularly out all night parting with him, ghosting you when she is with him, and at least once spending the night with him), does not mean that you need to wait until you have 100% proof of the physical affair to be justified in taking action. Cheating is not the reason given for the majority of divorces. Most people divorce because of the way that their spouse neglects, deceives, or disrespects them; you have all that in spades. The bottom line is that they do not want to make someone a priority in their life that does not also make them a priority. You are not her priority; Jay is and always has been. That alone would be reason enough for most people.



Valid point!


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## Marc878

Bremik,

You've rolled over and took it for so long it would come as a surprise if you actually did anything other than talk about it.

At this time you're using every excuse to avoid even confronting this.

Weak as a kitten. You know you're teaching your kids to be just like you and her.


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