# What does taking charge look like



## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

I seem to see a lot of comments on other sites that women say that they want their man to take charge in the bedroom. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RideofmyLife (Dec 18, 2015)

You have a defeatist attitude. Why? And why haven't you been having sex? More info please...


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Taking charge and forcing are two very different things...

One is a mild dominance with a partner who receives willingly, the other is as you stated but not akin to... it is rape in my eyes.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Thound said:


> I seem to see a lot of comments on other sites that women say that they want their man to take charge in the bedroom. What do the really want. Example. When I try to go down on my wife she resists. Do I force it on her? I try to do other things and she resists that too. Do I just manhandle her? To me that is akin to rape. All of this is really moot to me anyhow. I don't see us having sex for a very long time or ever again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It doesn't matter what other women say they want. What does your wife want? If I recall correctly, your wife has some serious baggage, as yet unloaded, wrt sex. 

You specifically mention your wife's lack of enthusiasm for cunnilingus and you wonder if physical dominance could enable her to accept cunnilingus long enough to experience the benifits.  I would suggest, given your wife's issues, that this would go over in an extreme way. She would either trigger and wig out, or she would feel safe enough to allow herself to experience what you're hoping to give her. 

I've said this so many times here in SIM. Most women battle their love/hate feelings toward their genitals. Having someone's face up close and personal with their genitals, something about which they feel shame and very insecure, would cause them to not want that. Maybe men, who seem completely at ease with and enamored of their genitals, can't fully understand this love/hate women have with theirs. 

I think most women have had to battle that love/hate relationship with their vagina. At some point we've had to think deeply about why we feel the way we do, and are those feelings based on reality. I know I had to make a conscious choice to be okay with my vajayjay! 

So how can a husband or lover help? Express your positive feelings for her vajayjay with passion during love making and during foreplay and any time you have enough privacy to not be over heard. Maybe get her comfortable with your mouth JUST on her clitoris and nowhere else down there. 

Ask your wife to learn to love her lady parts as much as you do. Don't accept any negative talk about her lady parts. Trying to over ride a long held dislike takes patience and determination.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My H knows I have an aversion; he has to start carefully, usually by rubbing my feet or legs or shoulders to relax me, cuddling, etc. and then starting to go on to other things. To me, that's taking charge in my particular way. There might be something like that that your wife would be amenable to.

What's her issue with it?


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Communication beforehand is important. "Taking charge" is going to mean different things to different people. 

For one person that could just be stating what you are going to do, then doing it. It means not 'asking' or constantly checking to see if you are pleasing her. It means being a bit animalistic and selfish. 

To another person it may be wanting to be held down, to be physically controlled. Some like pain, some want it more passive with no pain. 

The key is to know your partner, and if she does want to play on the more aggressive side, definitely have a safe word. Safe words make the world a better place.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This - exactly:


Anon Pink said:


> It doesn't matter what other women say they want. What does your wife want?
> snip
> .


Different women like different things. There are some women (my wife included) who most definitely do NOT want men to "take charge". 

If she has specifically asked you to take charge, or be more dominant, then give it a try. If the issue is that she is LD and doesn't want sex, then being more dominant is likely to fail. 

If you are married to someone who doesn't want sex and is naturally LD, then NOTHING you do will fix it. People who have never been in this situation will question that, but those of us who have lived in a HD/LD relationship for decades are generally aware that there is no fix.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Thound said:


> I seem to see a lot of comments on other sites that women say that they want their man to take charge in the bedroom.


Women are like a ship and want their man to be the captain. Together they can go on great voyages! 

A woman wanting a man to take charge is akin to a woman a drift in a relationship without anyone driving the boat. She wants some direction, and she wants that person to be confident about it! 

Now one thing a woman does NOT want if for a man to use the radio and get instructions for sailing other ships. Some ships are racing ships, some ships are cargo (family) ships, some ships are designed for crossing the ocean and some ship are best kept in a fresh water lake. Odds are when you do this you are getting instructions for sailing a much different ship!

So if you want to take charge, you must first LISTEN to your ship and understand what it is she is capable of doing in the relationship. THEN you take charge and set sail my friend. 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Women are like a ship and want their man to be the captain. Together they can go on great voyages!
> 
> A woman wanting a man to take charge is akin to a woman a drift in a relationship without anyone driving the boat. She wants some direction, and she wants that person to be confident about it!
> 
> ...


Just dont tell your wife she is a ship. You do that and you just called her fat.:surprise:


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Women are like a ship and want their man to be the captain. Together they can go on great voyages!
> 
> A woman wanting a man to take charge is akin to a woman a drift in a relationship without anyone driving the boat. She wants some direction, and she wants that person to be confident about it!
> 
> ...


Sigh. I'm calling the Coast Guard.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thound said:


> I seem to see a lot of comments on other sites that women say that they want their man to take charge in the bedroom. What do the really want. Example. When I try to go down on my wife she resists. Do I force it on her? I try to do other things and she resists that too. Do I just manhandle her? To me that is akin to rape. All of this is really moot to me anyhow. I don't see us having sex for a very long time or ever again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thound, does your wife think you are very fearful? Does she feel you are watching her, trying to find some evidence she is cheating on you? Do you understand how that would turn her off to sex with you?

Whoever said women like confident men, men who trust themselves, is right on, at least in my opinion. If I thought my husband were watching me, trying to catch me in a mistake, I would not feel trust in him. Just something to think about.

As far as forcing anything on her, I don't think it is a good idea. Like someone else mentioned, it could possibly be illegal. Sex should flow naturally out of a couple's emotional connection, imo. 

I did not know women led in the bedroom before I came to TAM. I did not know men needed reassurance, or for women to initiate sex, either. 

Dug has always told me what to do during sex. He tells me what position to get into, or just puts my body in it. He is very encouraging and positive. He tries to be sensitive to what might not be feeling right to me. 

I would not feel right in a relationship if I were expected to initiate, or lead in the bedroom, or reassure him in some way. I would probably get up and leave the room. It would just feel wrong to me, like I were expected to be the man or something.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

If she has come from a religious background/upbringing, probably likely that she is afraid to. 
She's not rejecting you, she thinks, has been brought up to think, that if a woman enjoys sex, she is sinning. 
Changing her mind on this will be difficult if she's been this way for many years.
"Taking Charge" when she's clearly in the mind that it's wrong, could make her feel possibly violated. 

If she's unwilling to discuss it with you, then do not force it. 
Always have permission first. 

If you guys are still attending church, maybe seek advice (both of you) from a church counsellor. 

Please note, she is not rejecting you. But tell her making & expressing love in variety (different positions/oral) is definitely not sinful. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Thound said:


> I seem to see a lot of comments on other sites that women say that they want their man to take charge in the bedroom. What do the really want. Example. When I try to go down on my wife she resists. Do I force it on her? I try to do other things and she resists that too. Do I just manhandle her? To me that is akin to rape. All of this is really moot to me anyhow. I don't see us having sex for a very long time or ever again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My 2 cents:

What I have found from personal experience is that my W loves it when I am really really aroused. She kind of feeds off my excitement and enthusiasm. To me, when my wife says she likes me to take charge, she means she wants me to be a very enthusiastic and aroused lover......doing the limited number of PIV sex acts she will allow to happen to her (missionary or cowgirl....nothing else ever).

You are correct if you force her, it is not what she wants, except for one kind of exception. If your wife will allow light bondage or the illusion of bondage (aka, something around her wrists that she can easily slip out of if she wants to), THEN you can create the illusion of making her do things she isn't sure she would normally do, but isn't grossed out by. 

One thing I have learned is that some women (my wife) feel that "good girls" don't do certain things, but if they are "forced" to do certain things that sound interesting (but that a good girl wouldn't do) then they are still a good girl and it wasn't their fault or their doing anything bad as they sort of didn't have a choice. 

So let me repeat for clarity. You shouldn't force her to do anything she doesn't want to really do in the name of taking charge. But you can provide her an excuse so that she doesn't have to admit she wanted to do something a "good girl" doesn't do (in her mind) that she is curious about trying. This is the illusion of taking charge you provide her and the illusion/excuse that she isn't responsible for doing something inappropriate.

It would be better, if we could just be open and honest, but some people have real hang-ups.

Good luck.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> .....You specifically mention your wife's lack of enthusiasm for cunnilingus and you wonder if physical dominance could enable her to accept cunnilingus long enough to experience the benifits.  ......
> 
> I've said this so many times here in SIM. Most women battle their love/hate feelings toward their genitals. Having someone's face up close and personal with their genitals, something about which they feel shame and very insecure, would cause them to not want that. Maybe men, who seem completely at ease with and enamored of their genitals, can't fully understand this love/hate women have with theirs.
> 
> ...


Beautiful thoughts. I have tried and tried to get her to learn to love her lady parts as much as I do, but it just isn't going to happen.

I have tried by myself for decades. I have tried with the help of a sex therapist. I have done everything possible. For me oral sex (giving or receiving) is not going to happen in this lifetime with my wife. 

We discussed this before marriage (nearly 45 years ago) and she said that after marriage she would be able to change and that the nuns had told her that after marriage anything a husband and wife did was OK.

As you said, she has a love/hate relationship going on down there on both her and me. She has never been able to get over the hate/shame part. She freaks out even when I kiss her stomach or thigh. I can touch her, PIV, finger her, but she views her V and my P as "filthy dirty" (her words to the sex therapist). The ST took a really good shot at trying to educate her, but she would not buy any of it.

So we move on to things that she does like and we both enjoy.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Thound, does your wife think you are very fearful? Does she feel you are watching her, trying to find some evidence she is cheating on you? Do you understand how that would turn her off to sex with you?
> 
> Whoever said women like confident men, men who trust themselves, is right on, at least in my opinion. If I thought my husband were watching me, trying to catch me in a mistake, I would not feel trust in him. Just something to think about.
> 
> ...


No snooping, no sneaking around. I'm pretty much direct these days. Still a ways to go.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

RideofmyLife said:


> You have a defeatist attitude. Why? And why haven't you been having sex? More info please...


I could have sex very often, but I will no longer accept duty sex.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

@Thound 

I think it is a mistake to stop having sex. If you get out of the habit of coming together, it will be extremely difficult to get started again. 

Even if you think that you are having duty sex, have sex anyway. It is a better place to work on your problems that having no sex at all with the hopes of passionate sex popping up. Think of it this way. She may not be into sex every time but she because she loves you, she wants to do the best she can. 

What are you afraid of in the relationship? What inhibits you from moving forwards?


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> @Thound
> 
> I think it is a mistake to stop having sex. If you get out of the habit of coming together, it will be extremely difficult to get started again.
> 
> ...


I hear what youre saying, and I respect your opinion, but do you know how degrading it feels to a man? Believe it or not, a man does want to feel desired and wanted. Right now I feel like I'm getting my allowance like when I was a kid. Just another chore for her.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I think most women have had to battle that love/hate relationship with their vagina.


I have heard this before but have never been able to understand it. Could you explain it to me? I am sincerely interested.

If it is a thread-jack, feel free to PM me or start a new thread on the subject.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Red Sonja said:


> I have heard this before but have never been able to understand it. Could you explain it to me? I am sincerely interested.
> 
> If it is a thread-jack, feel free to PM me or start a new thread on the subject.


All comments are welcome on threads that are started by me.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Red Sonja said:


> I have heard this before but have never been able to understand it. Could you explain it to me? I am sincerely interested.
> 
> If it is a thread-jack, feel free to PM me or start a new thread on the subject.


Not a woman and not APink but Ill take a stab at that.

A penis is right there. From the day a man is born he can reach down and touch it. Then see it. And play with it and play with it and play with it. How could he not be fine with it? Its always been right there.

A woman has to use a mirror to first see hers. Also not as easily grabbed as a penis. Then for many probably some of the first things they hear in school from idiot boys and others are how weird and gross looking they can be. 

I dont get it but thats my guess as a man as why women could feel this way at times about such a fun beautiful body part. >


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Red Sonja said:


> I have heard this before but have never been able to understand it. Could you explain it to me? I am sincerely interested.
> 
> If it is a thread-jack, feel free to PM me or start a new thread on the subject.



I'm glad it's a foreign concept to you! That means you were not raised in ignorance about sex, nor shame about your body, nor fear of rejection because your body is repulsive. 

So the love part is when we were girls and not close to puberty. Our bodies were functional. Our bodies were tools that worked. We learned to swim and dive, jump rope, skip across the field, jump over streams, climb trees, swing higher than anyone ever in the history of the world! Before puberty, we loved that our bodies provided us the adventures of youth. Our genitals were not at all something we paid any attention to. We used the toilet and that was it. Totally functional tools.

But then puberty hit and life changed. Gone were the days that we could count on our body's to provide adventure and fun. Now we had to be very careful, we felt shame. Shame sometimes comes naturally in the form of inhibition and sometimes we are shamed by external events. 

External events could be as simple as a parent making a face and telling us not to touch or the risk and fear of being seen after a menstrual mishap, or it could be a systemic shaming by family in order to promote innocence and chastity. Innocence, in this case means intentionally keeping your girl ignorant. External events could also be traumatic events such a CSA which is disgracefully common statistically.

Shame happens because girls, at least in my generation, were kept ignorant about their developing sexuality. It was common knowledge that boys masturbated and had erections. But a girl's sexual urges...it's like no one ever knew girls had those urges. 

Shame in how a parent might react to the changing hygiene needs of an adolescent girl. Shame in how girls react upon learning that such a thing as oral sex could take place and how disgusting that could be and who could ever want to put their mouth were someone pees!

Some women never get over that. 

I think men have a gift with the testosterone that floods their teenaged bodies. Testosterone can over ride a LOT inhibition. Men also began loving their penises as soon as their infant hands found it! Who has seen a little boy walking around holding his penis? I bet everyone has seen it. Who has seen a little girl walking around with her hand between her legs? ....Anyone...anyone.....?


Women don't have anything close to what men utilize to over ride their inhibitions. And to top it off, women were habitualized to embrace inhibition in order to be good girls and not slvts.

Can you relate to any of this?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> Beautiful thoughts. I have tried and tried to get her to learn to love her lady parts as much as I do, but it just isn't going to happen.
> 
> I have tried by myself for decades. I have tried with the help of a sex therapist. I have done everything possible. For me oral sex (giving or receiving) is not going to happen in this lifetime with my wife.
> 
> ...



That makes me so sad. but at least your wife was brave enough to admit her hate. I was never brave enough for that and actually thought getting past that hate was easier than admitting out loud how much my genitals repulsed me and how much I feared my husband getting up close and personal there. Truly, it was easier to get over it than to admit it.

I guess your wife wouldn't allow you to shave her down there either? Will she consent to shaving you?


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Who has seen a little boy walking around holding his penis?

I still do----sometimes
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm glad it's a foreign concept to you! That means you were not raised in ignorance about sex, nor shame about your body, nor fear of rejection because your body is repulsive.
> 
> So the love part is when we were girls and not close to puberty. Our bodies were functional. Our bodies were tools that worked. We learned to swim and dive, jump rope, skip across the field, jump over streams, climb trees, swing higher than anyone ever in the history of the world! Before puberty, we loved that our bodies provided us the adventures of youth. Our genitals were not at all something we paid any attention to. We used the toilet and that was it. Totally functional tools.
> 
> ...


This was not my experience while growing up. Did you have a religious upbringing?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MrsHolland said:


> This was not my experience while growing up. Did you have a religious upbringing?


No. LOL! Not at all. I think you and I are almost the same age, right? Were you better educated about sex? I sure as hell wasn't!


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> No. LOL! Not at all. I think you and I are almost the same age, right? Were you better educated about sex? I sure as hell wasn't!


49 and heading towards fabulous 50 :x

TBH I didn't get much sex education as such but I was raised by a mum that empowered me to be me. She was a true Feminist and an Equalist. She had 2 boys and 2 girls and we were all equally important and encouraged to be capable and to reach our own potential.

We were treated equally in that we were given the same freedoms and responsibilities. Was by no means a perfect childhood, in fact some of it was just terrible but I was never disempowered or shamed for being female.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MrsHolland said:


> 49 and heading towards fabulous 50 :x
> 
> TBH I didn't get much sex education as such but I was raised by a mum that empowered me to be me. She was a true Feminist and an Equalist. She had 2 boys and 2 girls and we were all equally important and encouraged to be capable and to reach our own potential.
> 
> We were treated equally in that we were given the same freedoms and responsibilities. Was by no means a perfect childhood, in fact some of it was just terrible but I was never disempowered or shamed for being female.


Just shows our mothers have a great influence on us.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> @Thound
> 
> I think it is a mistake to stop having sex. If you get out of the habit of coming together, it will be extremely difficult to get started again.
> 
> ...



Not sure I agree. Duty sex isn't enjoyable for either party. What good comes of repeatedly having sex that neither party enjoys? Doesn't that simply reinforce that sex is a negative thing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MrsHolland said:


> 49 and heading towards fabulous 50 :x
> 
> TBH I didn't get much sex education as such but I was raised by a mum that empowered me to be me. She was a true Feminist and an Equalist. She had 2 boys and 2 girls and we were all equally important and encouraged to be capable and to reach our own potential.
> 
> We were treated equally in that we were given the same freedoms and responsibilities. Was by no means a perfect childhood, in fact some of it was just terrible but I was never disempowered or shamed for being female.


That must have been great for you! 

We were not treated equally at all! My mother was 2nd gen Italian and tried to raise us the way she was raised. Women served the men and ate after they had their full, then cleaned up. Thanksgiving dinners were a nightmare, all the girls in the kitchen all damn day all the boys watching football on tv all damn day. The first time I met my husband's family every single child helped with meals, boys and girls and the husband too! I had never seen that before.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

MrsHolland said:


> 49 and heading towards fabulous 50 :x
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hell yes! I raised 2 boys and always shared my opinion but always reminded them that it was MY opinion and why I felt that way. It was then their choice to research or not and form their own opinions. I have two GREAT adult sons to this day and it is awesome when they visit. We have some terrific debates to this day! 

Edited because I've had too much wine AND a muscle relaxer 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> Not sure I agree. Duty sex isn't enjoyable for either party. What good comes of repeatedly having sex that neither party enjoys? Doesn't that simply reinforce that sex is a negative thing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




For me yes. Beginning of the end. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> That must have been great for you!
> 
> We were not treated equally at all! My mother was 2nd gen Italian and tried to raise us the way she was raised. Women served the men and ate after they had their full, then cleaned up. Thanksgiving dinners were a nightmare, all the girls in the kitchen all damn day all the boys watching football on tv all damn day. The first time I met my husband's family every single child helped with meals, boys and girls and the husband too! I had never seen that before.


Ah yes, the good OL days.
Now AP put that 2X4 down, I was only kidding.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm glad it's a foreign concept to you! That means you were not raised in ignorance about sex, nor shame about your body, nor fear of rejection because your body is repulsive.
> 
> So the love part is when we were girls and not close to puberty. Our bodies were functional. Our bodies were tools that worked. We learned to swim and dive, jump rope, skip across the field, jump over streams, climb trees, swing higher than anyone ever in the history of the world! Before puberty, we loved that our bodies provided us the adventures of youth. Our genitals were not at all something we paid any attention to. We used the toilet and that was it. Totally functional tools.
> 
> ...


Wow, no I cannot relate to most of it.

When I was very young I was taught that my body was a gift and that it would allow me to do and experience things that I could not yet imagine. That it would grow and change in amazing ways as I grew up. My mom would even joke about relishing the fact that I could do pull-ups while young because that might change when I became a “big girl” like her. I could ask her anything about my body or anything else. I did not have parents in my life from age 12 to 19 (long story) so I guess I missed any significant sex or body shaming during adolescence.

I can relate to little girls walking around with their hands between their legs (momentarily), I observed that when my daughter was in elementary school. I did not see anyone shaming them although occasionally an adult would ask them if they needed the bathroom.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> That makes me so sad. but at least your wife was brave enough to admit her hate. I was never brave enough for that and actually thought getting past that hate was easier than admitting out loud how much my genitals repulsed me and how much I feared my husband getting up close and personal there. Truly, it was easier to get over it than to admit it.
> 
> I guess your wife wouldn't allow you to shave her down there either? Will she consent to shaving you?


Thank you for sharing. Yes, she had to face many demons, while we were in sex therapy to save our marriage. It was very, very hard on her, but ultimately, it did save our marriage.

As to shaving? She doesn't and when I have suggested it tells me it is gross and only a pedofile would want to have sex with someone without public hair. So, that is off the table. As for my shaving, when I have done that at times, she complains that it is unnatural.

P.S. She did go to an all-girls Catholic grade school, middle school and then high school and at the time they were mostly taught by nuns. I blame a lot of it on that and the rather cool relationship her mother and father had toward each other (I didn't realize her parents relationship until well after we were married).


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> Not sure I agree. Duty sex isn't enjoyable for either party. What good comes of repeatedly having sex that neither party enjoys? Doesn't that simply reinforce that sex is a negative thing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fozzy; I think we may have had this discussion quite a while back, but if one partner is HD and the other is LD and they are to find a compromise that works for them, often time one will have less sex than they really desire, but enough to feel the love and bonding/intimacy they need. The other will have more sex than they want, but not so much it is overwhelming.

For the LD that has more sex, at least in the case of my wife (with the help of a great sex therapist) my wife and I view it as her wanting me to be happy and giving me the gift of her body. She can find joy in my pleasure, even if she doesn't want to be aroused or climax. I know that I will do lots of things to please my wife that I don't especially love doing, but don't mind because of how much she likes them.

I think "duty sex" is only duty sex if there is no caring on the part of one individual for the other. If that is the case, then they probably shouldn't be married. If they both care about each other and do things for each other (including sex) then I think things are fine.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@Red Sonja and @MrsHolland, I wish I had been raised like you two. Almost all of my friends were raised the way I was, and the way @Young at Heart 's wife were raised. Those nuns, from the stories my Catholic friends told, were mean women.

I get the point of not wanting duty sex. I had stopped asking my husband for a back rub only a few years into out marriage. He made is very clear this was not something he wanted to do. I hoped he would offer it but he didn't until kind of recently, like a few years ago. So I get it. I get how it's just insulting and feels rotten to the point where you just don't even bother. It's a sad state of marriage.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Thound said:


> I hear what youre saying, and I respect your opinion, but do you know how degrading it feels to a man? Believe it or not, a man does want to feel desired and wanted. Right now I feel like I'm getting my allowance like when I was a kid. Just another chore for her.


I hate that you feel this way Thound. I sometimes have sex when I am not really in the mood. I don't fake what I don't feel however I have a strong feeling to make my husband feel loved. 

That's important to me because he is very good to me. i hope he does not feel degraded. How can I tell if he does? That is not what I want. 

I will tell you what it is from the female side. It not that my husband is not desirable, it's that my refractory period is longer than his so there are times when we are out of sync and I know that I cannot orgasm. 

It's not him, it's me. The ingredients are not always there, and I don't know why, I wish they were.

Is it possible for you to loosen the ties of your self-esteem from what is likely a reflection of a natural phenomenon and not of your sexual desirability? What if your wife is having sex because she loves you?

That is surely not enough but it is a starting point. I think it offers the best position to push for change. If you stop having sex, I think you may as well consider that your sex life is over with your wife. You can then plan your future accordingly. 

I'm sorry I don't remember you story. I will go back and read.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> @Red Sonja and @MrsHolland, I wish I had been raised like you two. Almost all of my friends were raised the way I was, and the way @Young at Heart 's wife were raised. Those nuns, from the stories my Catholic friends told, were mean women.
> 
> I get the point of not wanting duty sex. I had stopped asking my husband for a back rub only a few years into out marriage. He made is very clear this was not something he wanted to do. I hoped he would offer it but he didn't until kind of recently, like a few years ago. So I get it. I get how it's just insulting and feels rotten to the point where you just don't even bother. It's a sad state of marriage.


AP I am just very greatful that my parents had both renounced their religions (different ones) before they had kids. Mum was from a Catholic family, hate to think of how horrible it would have been to have been raised to be so self loathing.

I never quite understood the fear that many have about Feminism, IME it can be the most wonderful way to bring equality and self confidence into the world. It benefited all of us as kids and my brothers are both pretty fantastic men 

As for my kids, life is all about respect and self respect. they know they can do whatever they put their minds to and are equally supported regardless of gender. My parenting style of one of equity, they get what they need to help them get where it is they want to go. At their school they have a brilliant 3 year sex ed program that focuses on respect, boundaries, emotions etc. IMHO we all end up stumbling our way through the actual sex part but it is all the other aspects where I want my kids to be educated, saying no, not pressuring others, just respect in general. 

AP you always seem so on to it, you are clearly a very self aware woman.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

"Hurt me, baby! Make me write bad checks!"



Seriously, Thound, with regards to MrsAldi's advice, be really careful of going to a pastor/priest/minister, for a couple of reasons.

1.) They may not be trained to deal with sexual issues, specifically

2.) The whole church may end up knowing about your sexual issues. That's something that happened to people I knew in real life.

Mrs. Aldi, I know you meant well, and I hope your clergyperson is a good resource for you; I just wanted to give a heads up, based on certain things that I've experienced.




MrsAldi said:


> If you guys are still attending church, maybe seek advice (both of you) from a church counsellor.




@Catherine602 It's hard to imagine you lying there, giving contemptuous corpse sex, even if you weren't in the mood. Even basic missionary can be great if there's love and affection added to it. I doubt your husband ever feels the scorn that a lot of guys describe on TAM. Just totally talking off the top of my head, from reading your posts and such.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> I hate that you feel this way Thound. I sometimes have sex when I am not really in the mood. *I don't fake what I don't feel however I have a strong feeling to make my husband feel loved.
> 
> That's important to me because he is very good to me. i hope he does not feel degraded. How can I tell if he does? That is not what I want. *
> 
> ...


Not sure how you tell if he feels degraded other than asking him. But if you have that strong feeling to make him feel loved and do something, anything, could be quite subtle during, I bet he feels fine. I'm not talking about any sort of faking of pleasure that isn't happening.

A demonstration of affection when the raw demonstration of pleasure and/or passion isn't there.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> I hate that you feel this way Thound. I sometimes have sex when I am not really in the mood. I don't fake what I don't feel however I have a strong feeling to make my husband feel loved.
> 
> That's important to me because he is very good to me. i hope he does not feel degraded. How can I tell if he does? That is not what I want.
> 
> ...


You know, I really like you not in a creepy stalking way. You seem so sweet and caring. I can understand a woman being out of synch, but 15 years? Cmon man. No touching allowed, just stick it in and bust a nut and hop off. No thank you.
Now if you're out of synch, but touch your husband in a loving way and half way try to be engaged, you will be ok. Just don't make habit of it.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Thank you @Thound. My concern is partly selfish. Experiences like yours concern me because my husband is very passionate and HD. I am not spontaneous like him but once I get going we match very well. Sometimes the motor does not catch. 

When I say I am not in the mood I mean I don't lose myself and get crazy, it's more mellow and affectionate yes. What would you say is too frequent? Maybe 3 - 4 times a month at most? 

You may have covered this already. What is the reason that she acts this way. How can she think this is right? She knows it hurts you. If you hurt her in a similar fashion, what would she say?

What if she knew that needing a warm up period was normal for some people especially women? What if she could see that what she is doing to someone she, I assume, claims to love, is cruel? 

I am an advocate of reflecting back what you are given in a relationship. It's not tit-for-tat, it's a way to teach empathy to a person who is may be blind in some areas. 

Somehow your wife, who is a good person I'm sure, feels justified to treat you badly in this one area. I assume she is not abusive to the children, she does not kick the dog or put laxative in your coffee but she hits you in an area that is so sensitive. 

How to make her see the depths of the hurt she is causing.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

@notmyrealname4 never contemptuous. I believe that the way you treat people when no one is looking is what really matters in the final analysis. 

It's easy to take out your frustrations and resentments on a person who needs and relies on you. They are after all, close at hand. But I think it is the greatest sin of all because it seems no one is watching and it is easy to get away with.

Yet people who call themselves Christians do it all of the time. They say they believe Someone watches over us and then they act as if no one sees. 

A woman who humiliates her husband when he is opens himself up to her sexually is behaving cruelly. She may not see it in that light but that's how she will be judged. 

It would be kinder if she did not have sex than to lure her husband into a vulnerable position and then stab his heart. Same for men who do this.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> Fozzy; I think we may have had this discussion quite a while back, but if one partner is HD and the other is LD and they are to find a compromise that works for them, often time one will have less sex than they really desire, but enough to feel the love and bonding/intimacy they need. The other will have more sex than they want, but not so much it is overwhelming.
> 
> For the LD that has more sex, at least in the case of my wife (with the help of a great sex therapist) my wife and I view it as her wanting me to be happy and giving me the gift of her body. She can find joy in my pleasure, even if she doesn't want to be aroused or climax. I know that I will do lots of things to please my wife that I don't especially love doing, but don't mind because of how much she likes them.
> 
> I think "duty sex" is only duty sex if there is no caring on the part of one individual for the other. If that is the case, then they probably shouldn't be married. If they both care about each other and do things for each other (including sex) then I think things are fine.


I'd like to view it that way, and I've tried...but nope.

When there's no passion, no reciprocation of "want"...I feel like I'm just masturbating into her body. I'd rather that was a solo experience.

At least on my own I don't feel bad about it afterward.

One person can only keep the spark alive for so long.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Thank you @Thound. My concern is partly selfish. Experiences like yours concern me because my husband is very passionate and HD. I am not spontaneous like him but once I get going we match very well. Sometimes the motor does not catch.
> 
> When I say I am not in the mood I mean I don't lose myself and get crazy, it's more mellow and affectionate yes. What would you say is too frequent? Maybe 3 - 4 times a month at most?
> 
> ...


By what you have posted I would think you are doing great. For me, it doesn't have to be wild and crazy, just be involved. Initiate some. When my wife used to initiate it made me feel desired and wanted. Now what is just as important, give random kisses, random hugs, random touches on the arm. Let him know that he is loved and appreciated.

Who knows what our problem truly is married too young (20 me 18 her), years of built up resentment, both passive aggressive, me being unattractive, my personality, depression, menopause, etc. I really don't know definitely.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> I'd like to view it that way, and I've tried...but nope.
> 
> When there's no passion, no reciprocation of "want"...I feel like I'm just masturbating into her body. I'd rather that was a solo experience.
> 
> ...


Having been in a real sex starved marriage, I do understand the feelings you are stating. I have been in the situation, where I have said, why bother. I guess it all comes down to "want."

Last night my wife initiated and asked if I would like sex. Oh course I said yes. So we got into some foreplay and she notes how aroused I am. She then just pulls me on top of her for PIV sex. She had no desire to orgasm. I had tried to arouse her during the foreplay, but she didn't want it. Instead she wanted to pleasure me.

She initiated. She enjoyed my climax. I enjoyed feeling close and connected to my wife. I enjoyed the rush of the bonding hormones and we enjoyed cuddling with her afterwards while we fell asleep. 

Sex when their is no emotion, no mutual love is harsh. When sex is something that brings the two people closer together, even if one is looking for no personal sexual gratification is still making love and not duty sex.

I am lucky that once a week my wife does want personal sexual gratification sex, but unfortunately I need that more than once a week. It is something that the two of us have worked through. When she doesn't want to orgasm, she can still want to be intimate with me and express to me that she does love me and wants to pleasure me. It was a hard lesson for me to learn to accept her give of physical love and be the one receiving and not giving.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> Having been in a real sex starved marriage, I do understand the feelings you are stating. I have been in the situation, where I have said, why bother. I guess it all comes down to "want."
> 
> Last night my wife initiated and asked if I would like sex. Oh course I said yes. So we got into some foreplay and she notes how aroused I am. She then just pulls me on top of her for PIV sex. She had no desire to orgasm. I had tried to arouse her during the foreplay, but she didn't want it. Instead she wanted to pleasure me.
> 
> ...


I can certainly understand how that would work if you actually have a certain level of emotional intimacy and can trust that your spouse cares. When there is a wall there however, it's difficult to accept that as a gift. It just feels like you are a job. 

Imo, good sex has to first be predicated on one of two things. Either emotional intimacy or mutual lust. Lacking both of those, I'd say don't even bother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Women are like a ship and want their man to be the captain.


I'm guessing being the captain I don't have to ask to enter the bilges?High sea buggery is always welcomed. She has to handle my mizzenmast as I see fit.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> It was a hard lesson for me to learn to accept her give of physical love and be the one receiving and not giving.


Why do you think that was hard for you, YaH?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Yeswecan said:


> I'm guessing being the captain I don't have to ask to enter the bilges?High sea buggery is always welcomed. She has to handle my mizzenmast as I see fit.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

jld said:


> Why do you think that was hard for you, YaH?


A digression first. One of the books that helped save my sex starved marriage was reading the book called No More Mr. Nice Guy. Dr. Glover writes about men, who are raised by women and motivated all their life to do what women want become emotionally stunted in their development. 

Glover urges men to "Get a Life" and do things that make then less co-dependent, more interesting and proud of themselves and their capability. He also points out that most Nice Guys set up covert contracts with their women, where they do things in the hope of having sex or gaining emotional love and when it doesn't work, they double down and try harder at things women really don't care about in a mistaken belief that being "nicer" will be rewarded.

I like most "Nice Guys" really wanted to please a woman, especially if she is emotionally special to us. 

My dating and early years of marriage had been about making sure that I made my women happy. The things I read earlier were that it was important for me (as a man) to be the "good" skilled lover and not a greedy lover. 

The idea that I could sit back and just enjoy my wife making love to me was a totally foreign concept. Even if she wanted to do that and she enjoyed doing that, a "good" man or a gentleman or a "nice guy" would not allow such a thing. He would have to make sure she was equally if not more satisfied.

It was a covert contact that if I was a really good lover to a woman, she would be a really good lover to me. Life doesn't work that way. 

It was a hard lesson to learn that I was not co-dependent, that I needed to take responsibility for my own happiness and that my wife needed to take responsibility for her own happiness. That was a hard lesson, but one I learned.

I no longer do "covert contracts." Instead I do things that I enjoy doing for her and that she enjoys with no expectation of a quid pro quo. I try to make my wife feel loved and appreciated each and every day, but I do it because I like doing it. I try to provide her with unconditional love.  

She also tries to provide me with unconditional love, within the limits of her own sexuality.

Dr. David Schnarch has a lot to say about how Marriage, if done right is the hardest thing two people can do, as it forces to always be emotionally stretched, pulled and pushed to develop. Your partner and you never emotionally grow at the same pace and sometimes there are huge differences between you that pull and push at both of you. 

Learning to accept a spouses LD sexuality and their learning to accept your HD sexuality causes stress that produced changes in both of us. That was very hard, but ultimately worthwhile as our marriage was saved and we are both much happier.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> A digression first. One of the books that helped save my sex starved marriage was reading the book called No More Mr. Nice Guy. Dr. Glover writes about men, who are raised by women and motivated all their life to do what women want become emotionally stunted in their development.
> 
> Glover urges men to "Get a Life" and do things that make then less co-dependent, more interesting and proud of themselves and their capability. He also points out that most Nice Guys set up covert contracts with their women, where they do things in the hope of having sex or gaining emotional love and when it doesn't work, they double down and try harder at things women really don't care about in a mistaken belief that being "nicer" will be rewarded.
> 
> ...


Great that you were helped by NMMNG! Anything that gets couples to be more honest with each other is a good thing.

I do have a reservation about Dr. Glover, though. I think he said once that he ran crying into the bathroom one time because of something his wife said to him. I just don't get that, especially from a psychologist.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

jld said:


> Great that you were helped by NMMNG! Anything that gets couples to be more honest with each other is a good thing.
> 
> 
> 
> I do have a reservation about Dr. Glover, though. I think he said once that he ran crying into the bathroom one time because of something his wife said to him. I just don't get that, especially from a psychologist.




Meh...maybe he's a Pisces. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Great that you were helped by NMMNG! Anything that gets couples to be more honest with each other is a good thing.
> 
> I do have a reservation about Dr. Glover, though. I think he said once that he ran crying into the bathroom one time because of something his wife said to him. I just don't get that, especially from a psychologist.


You have reservations about a man showing an emotion? Does that invalidate his message?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> You have reservations about a man showing an emotion? Does that invalidate his message?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do not know that it invalidates his message, but it does not sound pro-active to me. And proactivity is something I would expect from a psychologist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Must we be our profession 24/7? 


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

I mean...KNOWING what SHOULD be done is not always what one chooses to do. 

Sorry...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Must we be our profession 24/7?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's true. Maybe he apologized afterwards.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

jld said:


> I do have a reservation about Dr. Glover, though. I think he said once that he ran crying into the bathroom one time because of something his wife said to him. I just don't get that, especially from a psychologist.



I'd be running after him, massively turned on because of the emotional intensity, and the fact that he could be that vulnerable.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I'd be running after him, massively turned on because of the emotional intensity, and the fact that he could be that vulnerable.


Thanks for posting, notmyrealname. It is important for us to see the variety of responses such a display can bring out in people.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jld said:


> That's true. Maybe he apologized afterwards.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True.

And maybe she did as well.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The best feeling of 'taking charge' that I ever experienced was when my H picked me up from work one day, had a bag packed in the back seat, told me we were going to someplace special. He took me to this home in the woods, where they were set up to give us each massages, then we showered together, and the everyone left and we had the living room, the fire, and cheese/fruit/wine, the hot tub, and the pool were all waiting for us. Such a cool event.

To me, that's taking charge.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

turnera said:


> The best feeling of 'taking charge' that I ever experienced was when my H picked me up from work one day, had a bag packed in the back seat, told me we were going to someplace special. He took me to this home in the woods, where they were set up to give us each massages, then we showered together, and the everyone left and we had the living room, the fire, and cheese/fruit/wine, the hot tub, and the pool were all waiting for us. Such a cool event.
> 
> To me, that's taking charge.


I agree, as with so many things in relationships, the apparent problem is usually a symptom of something else.

To me, it sounds like your wife no longer sees you as a leading man. I really think NMMNG might help you.

It's not her you should be worrying about, it's where your mojo went?

Find your inner happiness and confidence and she will react to you.

I also question whether your wife is reliant on a man to LEAD her and that her value is based on this. My ex-wife definitely required a strong "father figure" in her life. I'm not saying it's healthy, but it's probably more common than you think.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> I sometimes have sex when I am not really in the mood. I don't fake what I don't feel however I have a strong feeling to make my husband feel loved.


TAM really, Really, REALLY needs terms defined which clarify the difference between what you describe and having sex because it is considered a "chore". We keep going around and around about this.

We need a glossary.

In some ways, it makes me feel more loved when my wife has sex even though she may not be in the mood but cares so much about my happiness that it gives her joy to make me feel loved.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> A digression first. One of the books that helped save my sex starved marriage was reading the book called No More Mr. Nice Guy. Dr. Glover writes about men, who are raised by women and motivated all their life to do what women want become emotionally stunted in their development.
> 
> Glover urges men to "Get a Life" and do things that make then less co-dependent, more interesting and proud of themselves and their capability. He also points out that most Nice Guys set up covert contracts with their women, where they do things in the hope of having sex or gaining emotional love and when it doesn't work, they double down and try harder at things women really don't care about in a mistaken belief that being "nicer" will be rewarded.
> 
> ...


I always found it harder to receive than to give (everything, not just sex).

I'm pretty sure it's about an unwillingness to be vulnerable (probably an even mix of genes and childhood sh!t).


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> You have reservations about a man showing an emotion? Does that invalidate his message?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Men who have emotions are "weak".


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I always found it harder to receive than to give (everything, not just sex).
> 
> I'm pretty sure it's about an unwillingness to be vulnerable (probably an even mix of genes and childhood sh!t).


Having dealt with a lot of my childhood vulnerabilities and having found a partner that I can be vulnerable with, I can tell you most definitively that you are right.

Receiving is accepting the unknown and trusting unconditionally.

That, I am happy to say is something I have learnt.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> TAM really, Really, REALLY needs terms defined which clarify the difference between what you describe and having sex because it is considered a "chore". We keep going around and around about this.
> 
> We need a glossary.
> 
> In some ways, it makes me feel more loved when my wife has sex even though she may not be in the mood but *cares *so much about my happiness that it gives her joy to make me feel loved.


Here's the operative word.

Are they doing it because they care or are they doing it to get you off their back? Or--kind of middle ground--are they doing it not because they want to but because they feel they should?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jld said:


> Great that you were helped by NMMNG! Anything that gets couples to be more honest with each other is a good thing.
> 
> I do have a reservation about Dr. Glover, though. I think he said once that he ran crying into the bathroom one time because of something his wife said to him. I just don't get that, especially from a psychologist.



Really? He ran to the bathroom crying because of something his wife said to him? That must have been quite a zinger!

That would absolutely turn me off. Run crying to the bathroom? No.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Buddy400 said:


> TAM really, Really, REALLY needs terms defined which clarify the difference between what you describe and having sex because it is considered a "chore". We keep going around and around about this.
> 
> We need a glossary.
> 
> In some ways, it makes me feel more loved when my wife has sex even though she may not be in the mood but cares so much about my happiness that it gives her joy to make me feel loved.


But some men seem to get upset when their wives have sex out of love and affection and not lust. From what I have read, the lack of lust makes them feel unwanted. 

I don't mean "get it over with" sex but affectionate, and welcoming. The problem may be that the wife's intentions and feelings are misinterpreted to mean that he can't get her there.

For some reason, no matter what I do, I don't get aroused at a specific point in my cycle. I think it is hormonal. 

In about two days, I'll look at his chest and guns and want to jump his azz. It can't be him then. It's a natural rhythm in some relationships. 

I don't know why women and men don't have the same sexually. It would be so much easier. But understanding the differences and adjusting to them at lest helps avoid misinterpretations.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> For some reason, no matter what I do, I don't get aroused at a specific point in my cycle. I think it is hormonal.
> 
> In about two days, I'll look at his chest and guns and want to jump his azz. It can't be him then. It's a natural rhythm in some relationships.


I don't think the problem arises much when the couple is having sex 12 or more times a month and there are 2 days in her cycle when she typically can't reach orgasm. I think the problem arises more often when the couple is having sex 4 or fewer times per month and the HD feels that if he allows any sessions in which the LD does not orgasm, then the frequency might drop even further. When the couple is not having sex very often, the HD is terrified that allowing any one sided sessions is a recipe for even less sex. So even if the LD offers, the HD will refuse.


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