# For the Betrayed Partner: Were YOUR needs getting met?



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

I read something last night, and I can't remember if it was on TAM. But what I read was:

"The popular notion is that the person who has the affair wasn’t getting enough at home. The reality is that they weren’t _giving_ enough at home."

We constantly hear that the person who had the affair cries, "I wasn't getting my needs met at home".

But my question is two-fold:

For the wayward spouse: Were you 'giving' enough at home before you had the affair?

For the betrayed spouse: Were you 'getting' enough at home before your spouse had the affair?

Vega


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## Link182 (May 25, 2012)

I am a BS, and if you would have asked me that at D-Day or right there after I could not have pulled my head long enough to even acknowledge the question. This site saved me, period...end of story.

But now some time has passed and I have had time to consider things like this, and as bad as I can admit to being, and as bad as she says I was, I would have to say "no". My wife started off trying to blame her affairs on our marriage going down hill, but the reality was it was a death spiral. She cheated, pulled away. I noticed it and tried to do things to show her I cared, was rebuffed, could not figure it out and became resentful. And on and on...

My wife has always been more attuned to the needs of the kids than to mine. I followed suit, but perhaps kept that space and time for myself as we all do. This was seen as lack of love and inattentiveness to her, when really it was was never that.

I would say if I had to be honest she stopped being in the marriage for me and for us long before I started down that path. But the true difference? She cheated, I never once looked at another woman....ever.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

BS here.

To answer your question... a big fat NOPE.

My STBXW is selfish. She only cared about getting her needs met, not trying to give anything back. I'm a giver, she's a taker.

I was a fantastic husband and father. Great provider. Family man. Did everything in my power to ensure her happiness.

Not enough for her, though. 

Pretty sad, really.....


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Up until the day my wife told me she was going to have her affair, everything was perfect. Great sex, we went out to social events, museums, everything.

Then, in a matter of minutes, when she told me of her plans to have her affair, it all went to s**t. 

F**k! Flashback....


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

I'm a BW. Nope, I was not getting my needs met. In fact, what pissed me off most was that someone else was getting the sex that should have been mine and I wasn't getting it at all. I suspect that I'd have been less upset if we were at it all the time and he still had surplus energy that was channeled elsewhere, but he was getting off with others instead of me and leaving me stranded in the swamp of frustration. Also, I got the nasty attitudes and picked fights and anger and criticism that came from his trying to feel less guilty about screwing over a decent person. On the other hand, I was bending over backwards for him and wearing myself down, but it was the opposite of appreciated. Before the cheating, we were doing great -- or, at least, I didn't have much to complain about.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I’m a BS in 2 different marriages.
When the ‘experts’ say that the WS is not getting their needs met, they do not only mean sexual needs are not being met. They mean a lot of needs like sex, respect/admiration, conversation, time together, domestic support, financial support and so forth. The entire list of things have to be looked at.
I’m high drive. 


----- 
In the first marriage he cheated the entire marriage… from day one. I found this out late in the marriage. 

We were having sex just about daily, sometimes 2 times a day. When he started medical school it was daily when he was not at school. Then later in the marriage HE stopped all intimacy. As the marriage went on he also stopped meeting other needs like spending time with me, showing respect. He was also emotionally & physically abusive. I also supported him financially once he was in medical school.

So no, he has not meeting any of my needs. I had little chance to meet his as time went on because he was just not around much from year 7 to year 14.


----- 
In the second marriage, again sex was just about daily. Turns out he cheated the entire time we were engaged and the first 2 years of the marriage until I discovered the cheating.

Once we married he was not meeting my needs of spending time with me, going on dates, helping raise HIS children and around the house. He did not buy me gifts or even give cards for special occasions. 

Then he lost his job in year 2 and I ended up supporting him and his children.

----- 
Sometimes the WS’s is not allowing the BS to meeting their needs. Sometimes the WS has needs that no one can meet… they are just broken people.
And yes sometimes a WS legitimately has unmet needs because they are married to a person who is either selfish or not paying attention.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I'd say yes. That changed as she started the EA. Since then nobody's needs were met, not our childrens's, not even hers.


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

Sadly as a BS no, I wasn't. He helped with the kids, but the bedroom sucked as did his appreciation of anything that I would do for him. In fact I brought that up during talks about the affair. I asked him if he would want sex if it ended everytime will him having blue balls.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Same here, BS. I was lustfully in love with my first wife. We had a lot in common and did things together. I thought she was happy. And a very devout and pious woman. But deep down she wanted a new lifestyle that revolved around gobs of money. If you knew her I bet you would have said she was the last person on earth who would run off with a married man. Not that I was perfect, but my love for her was evident.


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

as a BS yes i was meeting his needs in EVERY area. in the bedroom 2 to 3 times weekly, buying sexy clothing offering oral and having fun. looking after 3 kids, helping build a house, spending time with him, ......

what more did he want ??!!


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## Twofaces (Dec 5, 2011)

In a word, NO! Meaning my needs werent being met. In turn, neither were all of his.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

All his needs were met. And more. Mine were not. I was B


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## January (Jan 5, 2013)

As a BW, no, my needs weren't being met. My ex-husband was taking what should have been mine: his affection, his attention, etc., to that woman instead of me.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

No, as a BH, my needs certainly weren't being met, but ultimately it's my job to meet my own needs, just as it is for everyone, marriage partners are merely there to help support and facilitate our spouse's needs. In my marriage there were two main issues I that caused this: 1) she no longer wanted to try to due to lost respect and attraction, plus whatever dysfunctions she brought into it 2) my dysfunctions, such as not pursuing her more or making her feel sexually desired by me - and for me it stems from a lot of the typical nice guy issues, of which I got a bad case of putting other's needs way ahead of my own to the point that I have a truly difficult even recognizing or acknowledging my needs, and almost two years out, with therapy, self reflection, meditiation... I still have not really made much progress in this.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

WH here. (59yo). 
No, my needs weren't being met. 
In retrospect, my W was in perimenopause and I had no clue. 
We were never good communicators. I began a long term A, and detached. 
In turn, after abt 3 yrs of my A beginning, my W started her own A. 
(I know - this is a mess)

Truly not trying to excuse my A, I take full responsibility, but I want to impress upon everyone here how important communication is between partners. Had I known how my W was really feeling, I do not think I would have ever started my A. But, instead, I emotionally abandoned my W when she needed me most. After I emotionally checked out - she did too, and found someone else to meet her needs. 

True communication would have likely prevented this situation from ever happening.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostandstuck (Nov 3, 2012)

BW here...Nope mine were not getting met and I went to STBXH asking what was wrong and I got the "it is not you it is me". Then it felt like he was faking it and I started pushing him away. Then he wanted a D and then I found out about the cheating for months...


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## brokendown77 (Dec 15, 2012)

BS here, my needs were not being met in any shape or form. No talking, affection, sex, anything. Anything I would try to do to get her to open up she'd ignore or throw back in my face. The months leading up to D-Day were the worst in my life. Both me and my daughter were being neglected so she could go and get her "high" from posOM.

I once had to ASK for a hug during this period. So no, physical and emotional needs were not only not being met, but fully ignored.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

Link182 said:


> I am a BS, and if you would have asked me that at D-Day or right there after I could not have pulled my head long enough to even acknowledge the question. This site saved me, period...end of story.
> 
> But now some time has passed and I have had time to consider things like this, and as bad as I can admit to being, and as bad as she says I was, I would have to say "no". My wife started off trying to blame her affairs on our marriage going down hill, but the reality was it was a death spiral. She cheated, pulled away. I noticed it and tried to do things to show her I cared, was rebuffed, could not figure it out and became resentful. And on and on...
> 
> ...


This post saved me from doing a lot of typing.

Thanks.

Nail, meet head.


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

BS, I don't really know what my emotional needs are but I'm going to guess these are my main ones:

Affection - Yes
Sexual Fulfillment - Enough that I wasn't too resentful
Conversation - No 
Honesty and Openness - Ha Ha, *NO*
Physical Attractiveness (I assume this means spouse, not how spouse views you or how you self-image)- Yes, she looks great, at her best during FalseR and immediately after Dday2
Domestic Support - NO

The kicker is I thought we were actually in a 'good' marriage, no issues we couldn't have talked about at any point. She just closed off and OM became her best friend- "The primary person I share my thoughts with" in a Skype letter to him. I sure as hell had no idea.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Not by a LOOOOOONG shot.

I have a lot of "face-palm" moments when thinking about my relationship with my ex. It was extremely one-sided in his favour and I seemed happy to be tossed some "crumbs" once in a while. 

Never again.


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## artlady (Jul 17, 2011)

As the BS, no, mine weren't being met. The recession was a big deal in changing my H's behavior. He withdrew, spent more and more time in his office or with clients, and apparently liked to talk more with friends than with me. I did notice the big change in his behavior in the year leading up to our separation, but at that time, I didn't know how to handle things 'correctly'.

Once he reconnected in person with his first serious girlfriend, he was off and running, and for ten weeks, *she* was the one who met all his needs, and he hers.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Everyone is already hating me, so I figure I might as well get it all out of my system.

First, let me post this video. Uses some curse words and probably isn't work friendly, even though it's just youtube. The important bit is at 3:24

It is a video of a girl rebutting the notion that 'nice guys finish last'. She says that most likely, there were a DOZEN reasons why the girl dumped the guy's sorry ass which she could ennumerate at length.

How does this relate to this thread? I am entertained at how many 'saintly' spouses there are, who did EVERYTHING that their WS wanted AND MORE...and yet things just went south...

I would like to suggest some other options.

-The WS was not able to communicate their discontent in an understandable manner (suggesting that sometimes SOMETIMES the BS might not be listening is already getting me hatemail...) So the BS thinks things are just dandy because of poor communication.

-The BS is 'paying into the WS's love bank' in rupees when they need to pay in dollars, i.e. their love *needs* are not what is being offered. For example, my wife doesn't want or need words of affirmation. She needs acts of service. I needed physical acts of affection (not just sex) which she didn't pay out. Since we've talked and examined things, we have learned more about each others REAL needs.

-One of the posters mentioned a 'death spiral'. How true this is! If I am not getting my needs met, I am less likely to meet the other person's needs. So they get resentful and don't meet needs...and so on and so on. At a certain point, the soon to be betrayed spouse blinks and steps back from the abyss and SUDDENLY tries to meet all their spouses needs when they finally 'get it'. Sadly, in many cases it's too late. In my circumstance, my wife finally started to try to meet my needs, but at that point, I didn't trust her. We had these little short bursts of sunshine before and WE had both been disappointed. And no, I was not a saint of a husband either.

Now...the question is: were the needs of the WS realistic? And that is the question. In _some_ cases, yes they were and they weren't being met. 

But in a lot of cases, no. The BS DID their share of the lifting and it wasn't reciprocated.

I hope this sheds more light than heat on the issue.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

You won't get any hate-mail from me, JCD. 

The scenario you describe played out for W and I over the last 5 yrs, leading to A's on both out parts. 

It's really sad because true communication from both of us in all likelihood would have prevented either of us from going to someone else for our needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

My needs were not met since having children (10 years ago). Apparently her needs were not met either.

My needs? I wanted a happy wife who supported me and was attracted to me and appreciated what I did for "US".


Her needs? Hell if I know. I suppose I wasn't as emotionally supportive as I should have been, but it wasn't for a lack of trying.

The big difference? I never gave up on my vows, I never quit on us. She had an exit affair while I did everything humanly possible to please her.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

Good question...No! I was the Giver and STBXWW...the Taker.

In the beginning it was about 60/40 which was a ratio I could live with. As time went on our ratio became more and more out of balance...she was becoming very selfish. About the time her affair started it was down to 80/20, and that is being generous. I was a slow degeneration. I was, by no stretch of the imagination, getting my needs met although I was always trying to meet hers. As she input less and less into us I was compensating by putting in more and more.

Here is a snapshot of our marriage at that time.

I worked 50 hours a week and paid all the household bills and hers...she only worked 18.

I did the grocery shopping.

I did the cleaning.

I did the laundry.

I did the dishes.

I did all of the household maintenance.

I helped our children with their homework and spent time with them.

I cooked about 3 nights a week.

She developed a huge spending problem...that I paid for.

I got duty sex from her a few times a month, begrudgingly...again, I was the giver and her the taker...if you know what I mean. She never returned favors. She almost avoided touching me...if that's possible. No passion from her.

She avoided conversations with me and maintained little eye contact.

She started going out with her friends more and more while I stayed home with our children.

That is just for starters.

I turned into a door mat...without knowing it.

The thing that pisses me of is that her POSOM never did a damn thing for her, made no sacrifices, gave up nothing for her and gave her nothing except to blow sunshine and BS up her ass. He got all the good stuff from her and I got all of her S**t. 

Judging from all or their messages he wasn't talking to her any different then I did...she was just open to his words and not mine. Nothing he said to her was clever or magical. In fact he sounded rather childish most of the time.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

BS here - no - my needs were not being met. In fact, I was the one many times in our marriage that acknowledged we were in a rut, that we needed to spend more time together, and after children, we started to feel more like roomates. I brought up divorce (not much before husband started affair), and he got angry at me and told me to never say that word ever again. Divorce was not an option...and a couple of months later OW comes in picture and a couple of months after that - he wants a divorce.

I openly recognized we were having issues. We argued over every little thing. He was withdrawn after his father died, more so than ever before. Prior to kids, we had a near perfect marriage. Where did I go wrong - I devoted myself first to my children. I trusted no one to babysit, so we never went out without them except when grandma visited twice a year. They both slept in our bed until they were about 3. 

Funny thing - I just remembered. I asked him when we started losing our extrme sex and closeness...and he reminded me - 3 years after we were married we got a dog....who he allowed to sleep in our bed....and I hated it.....not going to have sex with a dog in the bed.....so he started with the dog, I started with the kids, and he had a series of jobs that were stressfull in the military, I worked from a home office and hardly ever left the house (still do...I am getting better though), so I had no outside girlfriends. 

We moved a lot, we both were sleep deprived....we let life take over our lives and we gave up on ourselves and each other. What once was great became a memory. Now we are rebuilding, and I am hopeful. We are both guilty of getting lazy and not meeting each others needs. However, an affair should never have happened. Counseling should have been first.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

JCD said:


> Everyone is already hating me, so I figure I might as well get it all out of my system.
> 
> First, let me post this video. Uses some curse words and probably isn't work friendly, even though it's just youtube. The important bit is at 3:24
> 
> ...


And blah blah blah....

Look, no one is claiming to be the pefect spouse. And I realize your crusade to justify betraying spouse, family and friends is never ending. But I think the question and point here is this:

Were those betrayers needs being met enough, or could have been if they were somehow making the effort to be more connected to the realtionship, such thet their betrayal was unjustified? The answer is rarely "yes". Very rarely. Very VERY rarely

I don't need to tell you that betrayers are quitters. I mean, one gets out of a relationship what they're willing to put into a relationship. For a whole host of reasons betrayers stop putting into the relationship what is required to get something out of it. So they choose the path of betrayal. And _many_ betrayers are having their needs met, they just betray because they want to. 

Honestly, I just do not understand your need to justify betraying spouse, children, families and friends and destroying lives. I really don't


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

BS here.


Quote: For the betrayed spouse: Were you 'getting' enough at home before your spouse had the affair?

Vega



Answer: It's not that simple in my case. Many of my basic needs were being met. Those needs were not the needs which would make me want to be in a marriage with someone. The ones which weren't being met were mainly intimacy, which caused me to not be interested in sex. I need intimacy to want to have sex, evident in my low number of sexual partners.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Sorta- He was around financially, physically and not out at bars but mentally he was checked out for most of our marriage. He's a computer addict does it for a living, hobby, fun it's his all purpose answer to every need he's ever had and it's been this way since he was 15. Growing up computers became his surrogate family/friend/escape and even sexual outlet (porn)

Once I had our children their needs filled me and I just grew used to it. The disconnect grew gradually but he never complained and it seemed like as long as he was near a computer, he was content. I attempted to fix things through out the marriage and we had pockets of real connections- but like any addict he was always craving to get back to the computer and get sucked in. 

When D-day happened I had a split self reaction of "wow, he actually got out of his comfort zone and got freaky" & I'm going to kill him, my world is over".


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> When D-day happened I had a split self reaction of  "wow, he actually got out of his comfort zone and got freaky" & I'm going to kill him, my world is over".


I hope you did.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

My needs were not being met at all in the bedroom, taking care of our home, I thought I was not doing enoug for my wife. I really do not like horse back riding but I leased two horse and was going out two three times a week to ride with her. While I was doing that she was off f'ing another man.

My WW was trying to avoid financial issues and had really checked out of the marriage but I was one of those guys that though 29 years of marriage my wife would never cheat.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Disenchanted said:


> My needs were not met since having children (10 years ago). Apparently her needs were not met either.
> 
> My needs? I wanted a happy wife who supported me and was attracted to me and appreciated what I did for "US".
> 
> ...


I think this is an important post. If you don't know what's wrong, how do you fix it?

But you tried. And you kept your vows. These are important things too.

It's incumbent on the WS to communicate...and it's just as important to be heard. I am not suggesting that most WS DO communicate their discontent before the affair...but some do. I've read post after post of 'well...things weren't perfect we had these problems but..."

But...was the BS fixing them? He/she knew they had problems. He said so! Was the WS fixing them? How often do you want to bet the answer was 'no'...simply from lack of communication, skill or just plain pride (my wife and I both hated the idea of counselors)

Something to consider.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

In some cases I think the WS & BS are not able to identify their needs. Many people won't explore or acknowledge a low self esteem or really explore their sense of longing. I think that's why all those romance novels/twilight's/50 shades are popular, it resonates with that unfulfilled desire within but they can't put their fingers on it. 



I think for me, infidelity- at the most basic level, it's really about soothing my fear of aging and dying. It's about accepting this is my small life, bland and predictable. Cut scene to a affair and *Boom* -something explodes it into thrilling and novel territory. My story has a twist ending suddenly. 

However, this forum is full of people who are introspective, who would attempt to verbalize needs and solidify connections to the people in our lives as evidence by the fact that we are here seeking help.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

JCD said:


> How does this relate to this thread? I am entertained at how many 'saintly' spouses there are, who did EVERYTHING that their WS wanted AND MORE...and yet things just went south...
> 
> I would like to suggest some other options. .....


Good post. It is really complex though.

When you dump the entire responsibility of getting your needs met onto the shoulders of your spouse, you are setting yourself up for a failed relationship. You need to take responsibility for getting your own needs met and do what you can to encourage it. Look at your actions to see if they are encouraging what you want, or discouraging it.

Honestly, this is where I believe some affairs and foggy thoughts start. Once you realize your spouse isn’t going to step up and give, you start looking for other ways to get what you need and want. Where you find it may not be a “healthy choice”. Where I turned inward and to same sex friendships, my wife didn’t place boundaries on finding it within the confines of marriage vows.... Then encouraged those behaviors from others while discouraging me.

My wife should not have expected a “best friend” when she was so unfriendly toward me (punishing and resenting me for where I wasn’t living up to her “should be” thoughts. That stems from her ideas that a spouse “just should be your best friend”. Zero efforts were made to encourage that behavior out of me and most actions discouraged me from wanting to give that to her. 

And me; A need I couldn’t get elsewhere and stay true to the marriage... sex. I admittedly sabotaged myself by complaining about it all the time. In other words, I wasn’t trying to be attractive, I was dumping it on her with the same sort of “reasonable expectation a spouse will have regular sex with you” in a relationship. Zero efforts by me to really encourage that behavior out of her and more effort made toward things that would discourage her.

It’s a two way street... do not forget it.


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

JCD said:


> I think this is an important post. If you don't know what's wrong, how do you fix it?
> 
> But you tried. And you kept your vows. These are important things too.
> 
> ...


Just for balance here, something sticks out in my mind. When she and I first started doing MC (long before the affair) I told her and the therapist that I believed there was something she needed that she was not getting. I also told them both that if I knew what it was I would do anything I could to provide it. I repeatedly mentioned how much I loved her and how attracted I was to her.

She had no answer. The therapist looked at her and said "what do you think of that?" She shrugged.

My biggest problem with my wife pre affair? She wasn't happy and there didn't seem to be anything I could do about it and I became too dependent on her for my own sense of worth. Having an unhappy SAHM who you've given everything you could to and tried your best to provide for is a real blow to man's sense of self worth.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

BS here. Very few of my needs were being met, in the bedroom or outside of it.

I didn't know what those needs were, I just knew they weren't being met.

The same was true for him.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

JCD said:


> Everyone is already hating me, so I figure I might as well get it all out of my system.
> 
> First, let me post this video. Uses some curse words and probably isn't work friendly, even though it's just youtube. The important bit is at 3:24
> 
> ...


Absolutely, neither are the WS needs being met in the marriage - but then, should there be any blame or not? As a guy, with a lot of nice guy traits, I can't really help but take on all the blame, wanting to make sure I accept my own responsibility but not sure where that is supposed to end. And so the idea that it was partly my fault to blame that her needs were not being met just makes me feel like a failure and very insecure about what I have to really offer in a relationship. So threads that acknowledge the negligence of the BS by the WS really do help tremendously to validate my own role in trying to work on the marriage, and validates the reality that when you are trying to work with a spouse that has no faith in the marriage, whom has already checked out, it is beyond a BS' control. And like others wrote, nobody claims the BS's are perfect at all, far from it, but mostly were were loyal and faithful, which in a marriage are possibly the most important elements to making it last and being able to work towards mutual fulfillment within it.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

JCD said:


> I think this is an important post. If you don't know what's wrong, how do you fix it?
> 
> But you tried. And you kept your vows. These are important things too.
> 
> ...


BS here. I never got a how to manual on marriage. Neither did he. I was immature when I got married. So was he. I didn't know what I was feeling most of the time in the early years of marriage. Same with him. 

I am so sorry I wasn't as wise as I am today to listen to his needs when he expressed them in a juxtapose way while I was working, taking care of the kids etc. I should have let the baby starve a little longer, let the baby fall off the bed, tell my boss my husband needs to talk so I am going to clock out to not steal company time LISTENING to his needs, should have let the pot burn on the stove, LISTEN to his needs before I dialed 911 when a fire started, go grocery shopping next year after he told me his needs and I try to meet them on the spot, check up on the bank account after he tells me his needs, on and on. I should have most of all, accepted the fact that 10 minute sex twice a month (two days in a row - so 28 days no contact), was the thanks I got the moment "...strangers in the night exchanging glances..." (I suddenly wondered why I never knew he liked Frank Sinatra all this time) with her breasts tucked in a lacy bra under a see-through shirt, walked through his employer's door and straight into our bed for 5+ years.

Even after 2 years of remarriage to him (wish I could stand infront of a firing squad or fall on a big gigantic sword), she's still in the bed with us, when my "trickle memories" pour in. One in particular was that we attended a marriage workshop in the previous marriage and we had to write poems to each other. His poem said that my eyes were like the sea. My eyes are brown, hers are bluish/green.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

JCD said:


> I think this is an important post. If you don't know what's wrong, how do you fix it?
> 
> But you tried. And you kept your vows. These are important things too.
> 
> ...



I thought I'd add, there was almost nothing that I wouldn't do to make my ex happy - including doing things that made me very unhappy or hurt me. The less he gave or the more he hurt me, the more I tried to love him through it, sex him through it, talk him through it, etc. It was all so wrong. One of the best things I did for our relationship, my sanity and my well-being was kicking him out after D-Day and starting the 180. As big and pregnant and housebound as I was then, my mindset changed for the better and I started to fight for ME. Looking back, I was codependent and enabling and am taking full responsibility for that. 

Coming out of that relationship, I can see how toxic it actually was and I did not even realize that I was being emotionally abused and manipulated. You don't have to be violent or even yell to be an abuser. My ex was very passive aggressive and punishing to me. I walked on eggshells with him and did things that hurt me just so I would not lose the crumbs of affection or (insert nice NORMAL everyday deed here) that he tossed to me. He had me so controlled because I was so afraid of losing that one little thing. Even when I suspicious he was cheating, hurting, etc. I learned not to speak up because it would inevitably result in my punishment. He knew me very well and withheld affection, quality time together or obstructed things and sabotaged situations when things were going well to hurt me.

By the time he cheated, I was practically a stepford wife. Cooking, cleaning, caring for the children, never talking out of turn, barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, sexually available whenever and where... GAG!

The closer we got, the more he resented me because he is a true PA personality. He is afraid of being hurt or becoming too close to anyone so when the going gets good, he sabotages it all. I went from having high self-esteem in relationships to very low self-esteem - but surprisingly - only in the confines of that relationship. He reduced my expectations dramatically of what our relationship or he could be and I believe, systematically over the years. I turned into such a door-mat and a giver and allowed myself to be THRILLED with the bare minimum - things that are commonplace and expected in most relationships or even roommate partnerships to make existence bearable. 

That being said, I'm not a martyr. I'm not angry at myself nor am I going to coddle myself in the corner as if I'm some victim; I do give myself a lot of face-palms in retrospect because I was an accomplice in his mistreatment of me, only I didn't know it then. I am moving forward and working on and learning about me and relationships because like I said, never again.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

OP, Shirley Glass makes that point in almost those exact words, a few times in her book "Not Just Friends" -- backed up by loads of research.

I'm a BS and both my husband and I acknowledge that I was giving more at home and he was investing more in her at work. At the time he couldn't see it and was defensive. He said it was "our stage in life". That he was working hard to support our family (and he was and is) but that didn't include all of the emotional non-work essentials he was directing towards her in copious amounts. 

I just wanted him to care about me, but he had very little left over at the time. The compartmentalization was through the roof.

He cares now (and again.)


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

We had regular, if infrequent, sex, but my (BS) emotional needs weren't met. I was somehow the cause of all things wrong with her life, apologizing endlessly for things that were not my fault or within my control. She was very articulate and convincing, I felt permanently guilty for not doing enough, and hurt for being misunderstood all the time.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Can we all agree that in not all, but in many, many marriages where infidelity occurs, both spouses have done some things that contributed to the WS deciding to cheat?

I am in no way trying to justify cheating or lay the blame for an affair at the BS's feet. I do believe in most cases, when cheating does occur, if both spouses take an honest look at themselves, they will see some things that they would have done differently in the marriage. 

Of course - this applies to marriages with NO cheating. So cheating should not be an option in any case, but some people (myself and my wife included) chose to take the easy route and go outside the marriage for what we feel we "need", instead of biting the bullet and getting to the core of our problems.

In our case, I didn't think there was enough physical intimacy. My wife felt there wasn't enough emotional intimacy. So - she doesn't get the the emotional intimacy, and she doesn't feel like getting physical without the emotional part. It becomes a vicious circle, or "death spiral" as a poster mentioned above. I couldn't see it then - it's crystal clear to me now - unfortunately it probably too late.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

old timer said:


> Can we all agree that in not all, but in many, many marriages where infidelity occurs, both spouses have done some things that contributed to the WS deciding to cheat?


I won't agree that ANY thing I did contributed to her decision to "cheat". I would say I had a part in the dysfunction within the marriage, and I can understand that certain actions and lack of actions may have contributed to her unfulfillment, but as to her choice to end the marriage, and the means by which she did, that is all on her.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

If both spouse's needs were being met, there would be no need to cheat. 

Personally, I think there's a feedback cycle that takes place. A small need is not met. That spouse gets defensive and all of a sudden he/she denies a small need in anger/retaliation without thinking. Before you know it, there is NO communication and the marriage is headed for trouble.

Of course, I personally believe that this does NOT excuse cheating. Cheating requires a certain lack of character and the ability to lie and deceive repeatedly. 

So while I will take my share of the responsibility for allowing my marriage to get to a state where cheating was a consideration, I do not take any responsibility for my stbxw's decision to cheat via an EA and hide it for years (even after it became a PA). All while enjoying the benefits of our marriage (where supposedly her needs were not being met - go figure). Even during MC, nothing came out.

In answer to the OP's question - No, my needs were not being met prior to my wife's betrayal. Sex was still good - but in hindsight it was alway ME who initiated. I don't think my wife did enough with the kids/family - she kind of checked out during her EA. Even when we were out for dinner - she could not resist the buzz of her phone. Did I tell her? Yes, and it usually resulted in an argument and resentment and accusations of being suspicious and "controlling". We went to two different MC's for many sessions. Turns out she was in an EA/PA even during MC where she said that she had no idea why we were having problems. It was apparently "all MY problem". Emotionally she had checked out - there was no more warmth in our marriage.

ETA: Sorry forgot that we had THREE different MC's. We did our last MC via the Internet - where the counsellor would ask us to write something (individually) that we could all see, and then she responded. It was a disaster.


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> If both spouse's needs were being met, there would be no need to cheat.


Sorry for the irrelevant post, but, as a BS I would say there is *NEVER ANY NEED* to cheat.

Thanks


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

old timer said:


> Can we all agree that in not all, but in many, many marriages where infidelity occurs, both spouses have done some things that contributed to the WS deciding to cheat?.


Oh hell no. Both partners are responsible for their own sh1t as a couple. But you never have any responsibility for how two other people feel about each other. 

Put it this way. Let’s say you absolutely hate your spouse but for some reason you value what they give to you (lifestyle, financial support, or whatever). Now, at work there’s a girl you think is cute and she’s really into you.... Did your wife or conditions at home make you think she’s cute or like you? Nope, not even an influence. The only role your home played in any of it was at some point, you knew doing anything with those feelings you have for your coworker goes against your vows and marriage. So you use the condition at home to give yourself permission. The only other “role” your marriage might play is that you use it to try and evoke pity from this other girl so she would feel its ok and give herself permission to get involved with a married man.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Precisely so, Racer. The whole rationalization of affair via conditions at home is a non-argument.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

There is no excuse for cheating. But letting a marriage get to a point where cheating is even an option is a shared responsibility.

A person with character will not cheat and would recognize and work with the other spouse to fix the marriage.

A person with no character will use the excuse of "unfilled needs" to rationalize the cheating.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Racer said:


> Oh hell no. Both partners are responsible for their own sh1t as a couple. But you never have any responsibility for how two other people feel about each other.
> 
> Put it this way. Let’s say you absolutely hate your spouse but for some reason you value what they give to you (lifestyle, financial support, or whatever). Now, at work there’s a girl you think is cute and she’s really into you.... Did your wife or conditions at home make you think she’s cute or like you? Nope, not even an influence. The only role your home played in any of it was at some point, you knew doing anything with those feelings you have for your coworker goes against your vows and marriage. So you use the condition at home to give yourself permission. The only other “role” your marriage might play is that you use it to try and evoke pity from this other girl so she would feel its ok and give herself permission to get involved with a married man.


Very well stated, Racer.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

No, she was never good.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Wow!! First of all, I want to thank everyone for their candid--and sometimes pain--responses. The reason I asked the question in the first place was because I've noticed that the BS wasn't getting his/her needs met either BEFORE the WS had the affair. But the BS didn't cheat. 



old timer said:


> Can we all agree that in not all, but in many, many marriages where infidelity occurs, both spouses have done some things that contributed to the WS deciding to cheat?
> .


No. Although BOTH spouses are responsible for the contributions to the problems in the marriage, the WS's decision to cheat was SOLELY on the shoulders of the WS. The WS ALWAYS has other options available:

- Talk to the BS about your concerns
- Talk to a therapist about your concerns
- Both parties seek MC
- Separate from eachother (with the agreement that you'll both be 'seeing others' while separated)
- Get divorced
- Some of the above

I think of a marriage/significant relationship much like a business relationship. If I'm an employee, and I'm not happy with my job or my boss, I either TALK to my boss, or I leave the company. But I DON'T decide to start _*stealing*_ from the company. 

The point is that there are other options besides cheating. Plus, in order to cheat, one must be willing to _*lie*_. 

Unless there's a gun pointed at my head, no one can 'force' me to lie...or cheat.

Vega


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Vega said:


> Wow!! First of all, I want to thank everyone for their candid--and sometimes pain--responses. The reason I asked the question in the first place was because I've noticed that the BS wasn't getting his/her needs met either BEFORE the WS had the affair. But the BS didn't cheat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very thoughtful post, Vega.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

If I were to be honest... Prior to her affair, were my needs being met....?

I don't know, I didnt think about it or really care. 

At the time, I didn't 'need' anything from her. I took it all for granted. Guess it comes down to the cliche "you don't know what you have until it's gone" or perhaps "we want what we can't have".

I was a neglectful partner, honestly I didn't know how to be a husband and had no idea how much work it takes to have a successful lifelong relationship. I was a grown child with a dysfunctional 'template' for how to have relationships. A wise fool. 

I took for granted that 'married' meant forever, if Im being honest now... I felt marriage was somehow a finish line, when the hard truth is that marriage is where the real work starts. If only I knew.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

old timer said:


> Can we all agree that in not all, but in many, many marriages where infidelity occurs, both spouses have done some things that contributed to the WS deciding to cheat?


Absolutely not.

In our case, our marriage sucked, big time. Yet I never cheated. I was in the exact same marriage as he was. I didn't yet he did. Why? Because he made the CHOICE to cheat. That is 100% on HIM, thank you very much.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> If I were to be honest... Prior to her affair, were my needs being met....?
> 
> I don't know, I didnt think about it or really care.
> 
> ...


I think a lot of people think the way you did, POMS. They tend to believe that it's supposed to be 'easy'. After all, isn't that a big part of WHY we got married in the first place? 

Relationships DO take _*work*_! Maybe the hardest work is in being _honest_ with ourselves...having the _self-awareness _to be honest with ourselves...having the _self-control _to be honest with our partner...and to know how to _effectively communicate _with our partner. 

Honesty seems to be the key. At least, for me...

Vega


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

No. Our marriage had been brutally hard for a long time.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

No. We had a good marriage but there were a few places where my needs were never met from day one. I accepted that as the cost of being with her, but I did voice them. Other things were slowly withdrawn by her over the years.

After total honesty came as a result of Dday and all of our cards were on the table she had to face something I didn't even realize. I had been the one being neglected.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Been thinking about this a little more.

Also, as a BW, aside from the lies, romantic rejection, lack of respect, and horrible, verbally abusive arguments that came from stbxwh handling a secret adulterous life and feeling guilty enough about it that he took it out on me, I was getting most of my needs met and so was he (except the ones I was counting on him for: sex and acceptance). I think that part of the problem was that there were some emotional and physical and other needs that were not met for each of us and neither of us knew how to communicate them to each other. The cheating and the disintegration of the relationship would not have been so disastrous if we were better at communicating through the problems we were each having with the world in general and with each other. I was more satisfied than not with the relationship and I think he was, too; neither of us wanted to end the relationship (though I think in dark moments, I wanted to end my life and he wanted to run away with his mistress; those could have been avoided if we had been able to connect during those times), but felt there were big problems that needed to be addressed, both in the relationship and in our individual lives.

I also wanted to add that I don't that I needed much from my partner, just to be able to trust him and to feel loved and special to him. I suspect that he wanted to be needed more, which is why he chose to seek out a bunch of damsels in distress. He did tell me after DDay that his actions had nothing to do with our relationship but everything to do with his feeling powerless and the more I think about it, the more I see that. Unfortunately, he never communicated his needs to me. And, while I obviously can't meet all of his needs (nor he, all of mine), the betrayal hurt especially because he made me feel left out of his life; even if the cheating wasn't my fault, it still made me feel horrible.

Anyway...there's a lot of talk of emotional needs on this board (and in general when discussing relationships) and I think that's an important concept. I don't, however, think it's the job of either spouse to meet all the needs of the other. I don't think spouses should be getting needs met if it hurts the other spouse, either, without first looking for a less toxic solution. And, *I wonder what people think about needs that have to do with the individual and not the relationship. How do you distinguish between these needs and how does one balance them when in a relationship?*


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT? (Sep 28, 2012)

Vega - very solid thread question and lots of really thoughtful/thought-provoking responses. I am a BS, wife had a 4-month affair and DDay was about 15 months ago. We are successfully (so far) reconciling, but it takes work each and every day.

I have to say no, not all my needs were being met. The funny thing is, I don't think I had ANY idea how to answer that question before the affair. I probably would have said "yeah, absolutely" without even thinking about it. It's almost like I was living inside the matrix, content to swallow my own illusions. But I'm awake now! So with the benefit of time, I can say no, my needs were not being met across the board, physically, emotionally etc.

But neither were all of my wife's needs being met. We didn't do a good job communicating this to eachother, which ultimately lead to us drifting apart. It was a slow, and almost impercievable process, in hindsight. We gradually slid down the slope of becoming roomates with kids, never really stopping in the moment to realize what was happening and vocalize it. We took eachother for granted, took the mariage for granted. Complacency was the enemy we never knew we had.

We began to argue more and more, hang out and enjoy eachother less and less. The state of our failing relationship was squarely on both of our shoulders.

But the affair is squarely on her shoulders, and she knows it. At the end of the day, we were struggling - we weren't communicating as well as we should have been and neither of us was really happy with the state of our marriage and family. But my wife is the one who made the decision to leave the marriage and have an affair. She accepts this 100% and that is the only reason we have been able to even attempt an R.

Today, we communicate MUCH more clearly. We are more aware of our own thoughts and feelings, as well as eachothers. We do not take our marriage or each other for granted. We both despise complacency in any form. 

As a result, our relationship has almost had a re-awakening. Don't get me wrong, there are still issues and challenges that we have to work to address, but we do so TOGETHER now. Openly and honestly. And my wife continues to work hard on rebuilding herself as a stronger, better person. 

Solid thread guys!


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

moxy said:


> Been thinking about this a little more.
> 
> Also, as a BW, aside from the lies, romantic rejection, lack of respect, and horrible, verbally abusive arguments that came from stbxwh handling a secret adulterous life and feeling guilty enough about it that he took it out on me, I was getting most of my needs met and so was he. I think that part of the problem was that there were some emotional and physical and other needs that were not met for each of us and neither of us knew how to communicate them to each other. The cheating and the disintegration of the relationship would not have been so disastrous if we were better at communicating through the problems we were each having with the world in general and with each other. I was more satisfied than not with the relationship and I think he was, too; neither of us wanted to end the relationship (though I think in dark moments, I wanted to end my life and he wanted to run away with his mistress; those could have been avoided if we had been able to connect during those times), but felt there were big problems that needed to be addressed, both in the relationship and in our individual lives.
> 
> ...


I like this post very much. It occurs to me that resentments build up around the perception that one is owed something more that their spouse is not giving them. Resentments lead to bitterness and petty, destructive behavior and toxic interactions. 

Sometimes it seems it should be as simple as Bill and Ted's credo.


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT? (Sep 28, 2012)

I agree Harken! My wife and I have discussed many times that during the year or two leading up to the affair, we each felt totally unappreciated. 

We each believed we were doing more than the other with the kids, housework etc. In many ways, we were subconsiously keeping score versus doing things FOR eachother and then vocalizing appreciation.

It seems so obvious looking back, but in the moment, it never occurred to either of us how unhealthy and destructive this was.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I think that what this thread shows is that in most marriages where infidelity occurs there are problems. The WS simply choses an affair instead of working with the BS to fix the marriage. Affairs can be a lot easier because the WS does not have to face their deficiences in the marriage. They can just to to their AP to have someone tell them how wonderful they are. In 99% of the cases, an affair is a very selfish act.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I think that what this thread shows is that in most marriages where infidelity occurs there are problems. The WS simply choses an affair instead of working with the BS to fix the marriage. Affairs can be a lot easier because the WS does not have to face their deficiences in the marriage. They can just to to their AP to have someone tell them how wonderful they are. In 99% of the cases, *an affair is a very selfish act*.



Agree with everything - especially the last sentence.


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

old timer said:


> Agree with everything - especially the last sentence.


I don't.

In 100% of the cases an affair is an extremely selfish act.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Disenchanted said:


> I don't.
> 
> In 100% of the cases an affair is an extremely selfish act.


I wrote 99% of the time for a very good reason.

There was a thread here posted by a man who was very distraught that because his wife had an affair and left him. She would not even talk to him anymore. He wanted her back.

But then he went on and told the “rest of the story”.

He had been emotionally and physically abusing her for years. Every time she tried to leave him he would go get her and threatened her, forcing her back into the home. One time she tried to escape and he chased her down and ran into her with the car breaking her leg. He took her home and made her stay there in the bed with no medical attention for the leg to heal. She ended up having to get surgery later to fix her leg.

There were several other times when the abuse causes her serious physical harm.

Then she met a man and that relationship helped her escape. The man helped her escape.

You had to have read the thread I think to see the absolute depravity of what this man put her through. He did not see it as a problem because he said he loves her and just did not want to her leave him. So he continually beat her.

Once in a while there is an affair that helps someone leave a very bad situation. I have no problem with that. Good for her.


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I wrote 99% of the time for a very good reason........


I saw some of that thread.

You win.

But on the other hand, I could hardly call her's an affair, more like a rescue.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Disenchanted said:


> I saw some of that thread.
> 
> You win.
> 
> But on the other hand, I could hardly call her's an affair, more like a rescue.


I agree that it was a rescue. But it was also an affair.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I also don't know if I could call what she did cheating. Technically, I suppose, but it's a far cry from your normal cheating scenario.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I agree that it was a rescue. But it was also an affair.


I don't know, I don't see how anyone can blame her for what she did ... even some of us hard cores. I couldn't call it cheating.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Vega said:


> I think a lot of people think the way you did, POMS. They tend to believe that it's supposed to be 'easy'. After all, isn't that a big part of WHY we got married in the first place?


It's Pit. Please. 

No. It being 'easy' had nothing to do with my decision to get married. It was probably the hardest decision of my life. 

I think I was ill equipt to understand the pitfalls, and took for granted my XW was as commited as I was to the marriage. I was lazy about maintaining the emotional health of my relationship and I was arrogant to assume I was 'the one'. I didn't see any scenario where I could be replaced. Ooops. I guess I was overconfident about my value as a man, and I grossly misjudged her integrity as a women.

Lessons learned.



Vega said:


> Relationships DO take _*work*_! Maybe the hardest work is in being _honest_ with ourselves...having the _self-awareness _to be honest with ourselves...having the _self-control _to be honest with our partner...and to know how to _effectively communicate _with our partner.
> 
> Honesty seems to be the key. At least, for me...






Harken Banks said:


> Sometimes it seems it should be as simple as Bill and Ted's credo.


????- Party on dudes!! - ??????


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> ????- Party on dudes!! - ??????


I like that one too, but it was not what I had in mind.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

JCD said:


> I think this is an important post. If you don't know what's wrong, how do you fix it?
> 
> But you tried. And you kept your vows. These are important things too.
> 
> ...



JCD, I'm calling you out.

Get over yourself, man.

Stop with the WS apologetic bullsh!t.

That's yours to own, not ours.


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## NotDoneYet (Oct 6, 2012)

For me, I was content. The only thing was for about two months before D-Day, she kept having to work on what was supposed to be our weekly date day. I now suspect she chose to spend date day with her AP.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I wrote 99% of the time for a very good reason.
> 
> There was a thread here posted by a man who was very distraught that because his wife had an affair and left him. She would not even talk to him anymore. He wanted her back.
> 
> ...


Now, THAT is abuse! What a creep! And, in that case, I don't think the affair was bad at all. She did try to do the honorable thing, but he seems to have imprisoned her. The affair was part of the escape. I wonder about that woman, though. Being in a real damsel in distress sort of situation, does she expect her man to always be her savior knight, now? Will she know how to save herself when she needs to? Not that those questions have anything to do with affairs, but, I kind of wish she had been able to get away and not get caught through some means that wouldn't cause more issues for her later; however she got out, it was good that she did and in that case, the affair is the least troubling thing in the situation, so much so that it sounds more like a rescue than an affair.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Disenchanted said:


> I saw some of that thread.
> 
> You win.
> 
> But on the other hand, I could hardly call her's an affair, more like a rescue.


Didn't see this post before I wrote mine. Yep, I agree. Rescue.


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## ChknNoodleSoup (Oct 20, 2012)

I'm a BS and that was the hardest part to deal with. I was the one giving the love, support and intimacy. I was rarely if ever getting it. I kept communicating needing more romance, more love, more sex. And he kept withholding. Then he had the affair!!!! But according to him, it's because he was never attracted to me. I guess I somehow forced him to be with me and marry me!!


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

staystrong said:


> JCD, I'm calling you out.
> 
> Get over yourself, man.
> 
> ...


Sherriff...this durn town ain't big enough for the both of us...middle of the square at HIGH NOON!

Please!

For those who have ears, let them hear. Several posters 'get' what i am saying

You don't happen to be one of them. That's okay.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> And blah blah blah....


I need to thank you. One of the things that some people won't get is that a BS can so shut down communication right from the get go that they set up a situation where their spouses think communicating problems is impossible (and not just waywards. MANY spouses in bad marriages feel it's impossible to communicate with 'that woman/man') 

And yet with the concision of four words, you are able to provide an example marvelously. Dismissive AND condescending. Well done!



Decimated said:


> Good question...No! I was the Giver and STBXWW...the Taker.
> 
> Here is a snapshot of our marriage at that time.
> 
> ...


Decimated, thank you for this post and I believe every word you say.

I'd like to use it as a hypothetical and in no way impugne you or your character.

A lot of BS's SAY they do these things (I'm sure Decimated did). But just like that video I posted, if you asked the WS, I'm sure they might have a rebuttal.

"Wait...taking the kids three times a week out for dinner isn't 'cooking', the last time you touched that tool box was to replace the light switch in February and I had to blow you to get THAT, 'Mr. Housecleaning' has spent the last 4 years comparing me to his mother and coming to bed with three beers on your breath after spending all day on yardwork for a 'pump and dump' does NOT make a girl feel all tingly inside..."

This assumes the BS is...biased in their interpretation of what they do (Not Decimated, for the third time. This isn't personal). My wife has called me on my crap and I've called her on hers (usually as condescending and dismissive as Thatbpguy). So I know it happens.

But that isn't the only problem with this scenario. Machivelli, Shaggy, and Chapperal would tell Decimated "Did you wife want to marry a maid?" Maybe his wife wanted her husband to go do sports twice a week, bounce the kids on his knee for 45 minutes a day and ***** at her a bit just like dear old dad. Decimated says that the OM just 'blew sunshine up her ass'. Well...obviously your wife needs a sunshine blower, not a maid.

But this doesn't justify cheating. It EXPLAINS how you got to where you got. As someone said, marriage doesn't come with an instruction manual. This is supposedly enough to exonerate the flaws in the BS, but somehow the WS is supposed to be the 'Dr. Phil' of marriage in their communications, insights, and marriage strategies.

We've had several posters, WS and BS who said that they see my point.

For the others...I'm a narcissistic cake eater who would drop trou for the next semi attractive woman who winked at me. If that is what makes you feel better, please think that of me. Far be it from me to shatter your illusions.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JCD: I know that you are trying to make the case that there is an excuse for cheating. There are always excuses.

But cheating is a decision (actually multiple decisions) to deceive and lie about your actions. That makes a cheating spouse a liar. That is not to say the BS is innocent. In fact the BS may be a liar too.

Lying because the other person lied is an excuse, but at the end of the day, you are BOTH still a liars. 

It's hardly something worthy of defending.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

JCD said:


> I need to thank you. One of the things that some people won't get is that a BS can so shut down communication right from the get go that they set up a situation where their spouses think communicating problems is impossible (and not just waywards. MANY spouses in bad marriages feel it's impossible to communicate with 'that woman/man')
> 
> And yet with the concision of four words, you are able to provide an example marvelously. Dismissive AND condescending. Well done!
> 
> ...


There's no doubt that when people present their own case, they tend to revise history to the extent that they believe to be fair. I understand that sounds like a scary reality because it is: people have a hard time being objective. 

That said, as most have already told you, there is no excuse for cheating. I don't think you're tying to suggest retro-revision as an excuse but it could be perceived as such. In a marriage both people will go through bad times. Both people will do things that unknowingly upset the other, and both people will do things that knowingly upset the other. But cheating is the ultimate and intimate lie. If anyone who cheats ever starts a sentence with "But they were-" they deserve to be smacked.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

BW and BP here.

I do agree with Shirley Glass that the BP can be giving too much and the WP is not giving enough.

With my exH I made the mistake of thinking that we should have a 50/50 relationship. Then I started to notice that the more I tried to pay for things, the more he would turn around and use the money he saved to pay for others. Well, of course, this could fool some women into thinking that there's something there between them. 

I suppose also that my exH was an alpha male and he preferred to be the provider in most situations. I noticed for example that when we had dinner parties, he would love the cards and letters coming back thanking us or just him for the dinner party. My attitude was more practical.... why aren't getting return invitations?

When his friends were dismissive of me and when women, either my friends or his, became inappropriate with him, I would try to have open honest dialogues with him about this. I think I _tawked_ too much. Some of what I said was used against me ie, when you said that about her, I had to work harder to protect her from you. So much communicating with you husband.

And so with my fiancé, I found it interesting how quickly he stepped up to the plate when I told him how I didn't like the difference in treatment between her and me when our relationships overlapped; how he didn't vilify me for snooping in his stuff; and so on.

But from reading the messages between him and his EA, I could see a certain feistiness even b!tchiness from her that makes me think that my fiancé needs that kind of challenge at least from to time. So I guess I wasn't giving him enough challenge and requiring him to do more for the relationship, for us.....

Indeed, when I brought his "friendship" with her was when he started proposing to me.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

It's like trying to solve an equation...with out knowing what the equation is. The communication must be there to start with.

Believe me, I have attempted many, many discussions with her about her needs...from the beginning of our marriage through all of the D days. I genuinely wanted to know. I have seen here before that this is a reoccurring problem with some BS's. 

In my case, you must realize that the big change in her was precipitated by the loss of both of her parents within four months of each other. Her affair was part of a genuine MLC...imho. However, the selfishness and propensity for cheating was apparently always there. I recognized the selfishness in her but she kept her cheating gene a secret.

JCD, I understand what you are saying...she really needed was sunshine blown up her ass, not all of the countless other stuff I was doing. By the way, I was blowing sunshine up her ass on a daily basis. She apparently liked his sunshine better. She even said many times when I would compliment her "you have to say that...you're married to me" as if my sunshine was, for some reason, not genuine or discounted in her mind.

I understand about needs. I know what my needs are and I can and did communicate them to her. However, when you repeatedly try to talk, discuss, and flat out ask what WS's needs are and are given no real answers you are forced to become a mind reader. For the record...I am Not a mind reader...I don't think too many of us are. Because I loved her, and valued our marriage, I started doing everything I could to try to meet her mysterious, secret needs. I was forced to fall back on what I thought she needed. Talk about wasted effort. 

Some of the comments here have said, and rightly so, the BS is not responsible for the affairs or cheating itself...that is the WS's alone. I agree 100%, but that the marriage before the betrayal was the responsibility of both...50/50. 

I'm afraid it is not always that simple. Should the BS be held 50% responsible because the WS was or became incapable of communicating their needs or didn't know what they were? Is it the BS's fault that he was incapable of reading WS's mind? I don't think so.

In my case I asked STBXWW, on countless occasions, "Is everything alright with us?", "Are you happy?", "Is there anything you need from me?" I was always told that everything was fine, she was happy, and she loved me. I was forced to assume that we were good and I must be doing the right things. 

I'm sorry, I can't and won't except 50% of the responsibility for her pre-affair communication issues.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Decimated said:


> The communication must be there to start with.IMHO, I think that there are other factors that need to be in place _before_ communication. For example, I think that _HONESTY_ needs to be there to start with. As I've been reading these posts, it's occurred to me that my ex really wasn't honest about other things from DAY ONE. He told me about certain things that he did, and I noticed that he really didn't seem to want to take responsibility for his choices. He tended to blame others or other events for his choices. He did this in the very beginning of our relationship. Now that I've had a chance to really think about it, I've realized that I overlooked a lot, all in the name of being 'forgiving', as he SEEMED to 'feel bad' about some of the stuff he did. But then I realize that he NEVER once apologized to others for hurting them or for screwing up. He never ever said, "I did this...I feel BAD about hurting someone...I'm SORRY I hurt them, and I made a commitment to NEVER HURT THEM LIKE THAT AGAIN.
> 
> Believe me, I have attempted many, many discussions with her about her needs...from the beginning of our marriage through all of the D days. I genuinely wanted to know. I have seen here before that this is a reoccurring problem with some BS's. Yes, I also did the same thing. I tried to find out what his needs were, and he turned it all around on ME b saying, "I can't tell you what to do..." Meanwhile, I wasn't asking him to tell ME what to do; I was asking him WHAT HE WANTED. If he told me, it would have then been up to ME to determine if I was willing to MEET his needs.
> 
> ...


Vega


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I am not taking a stance one way or another. So far, I do not believe my wife has cheated on me but I was cheated on prior to her. Marriage is a very powerful relationship so my feelings pale in comparison to what all of you have gone through. But I will say it's incredibly naive to belive a BS has nothing to do with a WS decision to cheat. Like many things in life, these situations are rarely as clear cut as "right and wrong".

I have no doubt what-so-ever that my actions in some way did contribute to me being cheated on. That is life. And I accept it.


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

sinnister said:


> I am not taking a stance one way or another. So far, I do not believe my wife has cheated on me but I was cheated on prior to her. Marriage is a very powerful relationship so my feelings pale in comparison to what all of you have gone through. But I will say it's incredibly naive to belive a BS has nothing to do with a WS decision to cheat. Like many things in life, these situations are rarely as clear cut as "right and wrong".
> 
> I have no doubt what-so-ever that my actions in some way did contribute to me being cheated on. That is life. And I accept it.


Agreed. If I hadn't married her I wouldn't have to deal with adultery.

I own that 100%.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

" I understand about needs. I know what my needs are and I can and did communicate them to her. However, when you repeatedly try to talk, discuss, and flat out ask what WS's needs are and are given no real answers you are forced to become a mind reader. For the record...I am Not a mind reader...I don't think too many of us are. Because I loved her, and valued our marriage, I started doing everything I could to try to meet her mysterious, secret needs. I was forced to fall back on what I thought she needed. Talk about wasted effort. "

You know, what you said above could very well have been said about my attempts at fixing things and communicating with my wife.

I am not a mind reader. I could not fix the marriage alone. I would not put my kids through the absolute HELL that was my father's divorce.

And because I didn't run away, but tried to tough it out, thatbpguy calls me 'a quitter'. Do you know how frigging offensive that is?

While trying to tough it out, I made a mistake on boundaries. I think this story is a lot more common than most BS's are comfortable to hear. It makes their spouses human instead of sociopathic cake eaters. It makes their role as 'St. Spouse' a lot less secure.

But this is the experience of a cheater. Funny how many other WS's, the few who aren't run off by the torch and pitchfork patrol, tell similar stories.

We failed. We're sorry. But we aren't about to canonize a spouse was all too human. All that is is rugsweeping existing problems out of shame.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

sinnister said:


> But I will say it's incredibly naive to belive a BS has nothing to do with a WS decision to cheat.


Sinnister, sorry but her decision to cheat...was her decision alone. It was also her decision to not communicate, be open and honest and value the one person who devoted his life to her.

I don't believe you will get a whole lot of support here with this statement. The only thing some of us here were naive about was the honesty and integrity of their spouses.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JCD: there's a common expression used here a lot that you have to "own your own sh!t."

Nobody had a gun to your head to cheat. Nobody had a gun to your head to stay in the marriage (which by the way, you did NOT - because you escaped (ran away) via your EA).

The conditions leading up to the marital breakdown are shared. That's where it ends. Your decision to cheat was 100% you. It was not a "mistake on boundaries". You cheated. Period. Again, nobody and nothing forced you to choose to cheat.

Own your own sh!t.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

JCD said:


> I
> But this doesn't justify cheating. It EXPLAINS how you got to where you got. As someone said, marriage doesn't come with an instruction manual. This is supposedly enough to exonerate the flaws in the BS, but somehow the WS is supposed to be the 'Dr. Phil' of marriage in their communications, insights, and marriage strategies.


I think any good manual on marriage would include an actual bell to ring. "Use in case of emergency. Better yet, use it before."

Because then there could be no argument about whether the signal was made.



> However, when you repeatedly try to talk, discuss, and flat out ask what BS's needs are and are given no real answers you are forced to become a mind reader.


(I changed the WS to a BS in regards to what JCD just said.)

So what did your marriage counselor say before you started your EA?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

staystrong said:


> I think any good manual on marriage would include an actual bell to ring. "Use in case of emergency. Better yet, use it before."
> 
> Because then there could be no argument about whether the signal was made.
> 
> ...


there is, and the sound it makes is exactly like the word "divorce". Just too bad many people play the divorce card before they really mean it, and then when they finally should play it it's too late because they've long ago checked out and have their eye on someone else and couldn't care less about alerting their old spouse cause it's not their problem anymore.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Lon said:


> there is, and the sound it makes is exactly like the word "divorce". Just too bad many people play the divorce card before they really mean it, and then when they finally should play it it's too late because they've long ago checked out and have their eye on someone else and couldn't care less about alerting their old spouse cause it's not their problem anymore.


Huh?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

old timer said:


> Huh?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In response to staystrong's suggestion that there be a bell to ring when there is peril to the marriage.

If it gets to that point, for either partner, there absolutely is a time and place to put divorce on the negotiating table.

Of course, I don't mean blindside your spouse, serve divorce and run for the hills never to look back... Just to make it clear that there are no missed signals about needs not being met or responsibilities not being fulfilled - just like a bell except more direct and clear.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> JCD: there's a common expression used here a lot that you have to "own your own sh!t."
> 
> Nobody had a gun to your head to cheat. Nobody had a gun to your head to stay in the marriage (which by the way, you did NOT - because you escaped (ran away) via your EA).
> 
> ...


Fvcking likewise!

I get tired of the 'oh...we had problems in the marriage, BUT..." What an incredibly dismissive term. Like they should be rewarded for their cluelessness, their callousness, or their inflexibility. _ THEY_ didn't have that much of a problem (maybe because they WERE the problem), so why did anyone have to cheat? How sweet!

Getting the BS's to admit _their_ sh*t, particularly on this site is like pulling teeth. Their pain canonizes them. Their tears wash away all the crap, neglect and rages that they brought into the marriage. Their selective memory isn't the same as WS rewriting, it's...better...more honest. Sure it is.

But state that maybe MAYBE the WS wasn't the whole of the problem, that maybe there was contributory neglect and you aren't asking the BS's to 'own their sh*t' you are 'justifying cheating'.

I fell in love with another woman. I let a woman take the seat next to me that had been empty for a long time.

My wife, God love her, owned up that she left that seat empty far too long. I was wrong to give it away.

Now we sit next to each other.

So thank you, I 'own my sh*t'. I am not wailing with sackcloth and ashes, in a full kowtow which seems to be the absolute minimum to _begin_ to show remorse. And yet we seem to be healing quite well, I'm a full year NC, and my boundaries are better than ever.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

JCD said:


> Fvcking likewise!
> 
> I get tired of the 'oh...we had problems in the marriage, BUT..." What an incredibly dismissive term. Like they should be rewarded for their cluelessness, their callousness, or their inflexibility. _ THEY_ didn't have that much of a problem (maybe because they WERE the problem), so why did anyone have to cheat? How sweet!
> 
> ...


All of us tend to project around here. It's a mistake.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> Fvcking likewise!
> 
> I get tired of the 'oh...we had problems in the marriage, BUT..." What an incredibly dismissive term. Like they should be rewarded for their cluelessness, their callousness, or their inflexibility. _ THEY_ didn't have that much of a problem (maybe because they WERE the problem), so why did anyone have to cheat? How sweet!
> 
> ...



Good rant. The phrase "doth protest too much" comes to mind.

One day, with your wife's help, perhaps your guilt will recede...


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

JCD said:


> " I understand about needs. I know what my needs are and I can and did communicate them to her. However, when you repeatedly try to talk, discuss, and flat out ask what WS's needs are and are given no real answers you are forced to become a mind reader. For the record...I am Not a mind reader...I don't think too many of us are. Because I loved her, and valued our marriage, I started doing everything I could to try to meet her mysterious, secret needs. I was forced to fall back on what I thought she needed. Talk about wasted effort. "
> 
> You know, what you said above could very well have been said about my attempts at fixing things and communicating with my wife.
> 
> ...


Your argument here is predicated on the notion that the wayward spouse tried to "tough it out" and the betrayed spouse didn't. But that's not the case. Every ****ty moment my ex went through, I went through as well. I toughed it out. The difference between me and her is that I didn't cheat. It doesn't serve any good to dabble in obscurity about who we think did less work in the marriage or what mixture of variables led to one person cheating. 

We're either going to cheat or we're not. Many people who cheat say "Everyone has a breaking point." 

Bull. sh1t.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

WhiteMousse said:


> Your argument here is predicated on the notion that the wayward spouse tried to "tough it out" and the betrayed spouse didn't. But that's not the case. Every ****ty moment my ex went through, I went through as well. I toughed it out. The difference between me and her is that I didn't cheat. It doesn't serve any good to dabble in obscurity about who we think did less work in the marriage or what mixture of variables led to one person cheating.
> 
> We're either going to cheat or we're not. * Many people who cheat say "Everyone has a breaking point." *
> 
> Bull. sh1t.


Yes, this is the point I think this debate is hung on... there are many crappy marraiges that surpass that breaking point but still have two partners who didn't adulterate. To reason that cheating was caused by lack of something is saying that people who cheat just have it worse off, or maybe have lower breaking points. Lack of integrity does not come as a result of having a bad spouse or a difficult marriage.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

I often wonder how many of the betrayed spouses here are actually guilty of cheating in an EA or PA themselves, but were never found out? I'd bet there are more here than one might think. 

It's a great place to be. As the betrayed, you hold all the power. I know because I've been there. I could've kept my mouth shut about my A after discovering my W's A, and she in all probability never Would have found out (I did for almost 2 months, but the hypocrisy of it all was eating me alive). 

Of course, I think it is definitely a small minority, but I sincerely believe there are some here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

JCD, I feel like I should refine my interactions with you. 

Because I never want you to fall under the impression that I feel you are not owning the mistakes you've made. I can tell you are. 

I don't think you and I have ever crossed swords and contrary to many peoples' notions and expectations concerning me, I hope that never happens; but I guess you probably aren't a fan of my philosophy. However I need to be clear: my philosophy is usually restricted to circumstances involving a wayward spouse who _isn't penitent_. I know repentance. I can smell a contrite heart and you have it. 

And I must tell you I know the seductive nature of temptation as well. It is difficult to resist and while I myself am not a wayward spouse I most definitely understand the workings and temptations that lead to such predicaments. 

Also I want you to know that what (I believe) you are saying should be sustained-- everyone should own up to their faults and make true, authentic efforts to be better people. You're right in pointing out that it sometimes gets lost among the seething rage. 

But I must say... the rage that comes from infidelity should not be suppressed, mitigated or dismissed. It is real, and it is God-given.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

JCD,

You know as well as I do that the BS's spend A LOT of time blaming themselves, ruminating on the "What if's?" and combing over every little detail of their failed marriages. I personally have analyzed myself to death over this, and making changes in the areas I need to. 

That whole process is torturous, especially if you've been 'blindsided'. You make it out that BS's are generally clueless or something. But many couples "have some problems in their marriage" without one of them resorting to cheating. Now that this has happened to me (wife cheated and left), friends have given insight into their own relationships and have spoken about how "things aren't perfect, but overall it's good". That's exactly what I said about MY relationship pre-affair (and during, too, though I may have been in denial at that point). I don't expect those couples to be cheating or breaking up any time soon. 

The fact that you didn't let your EA turn into a PA is remarkable for TAM CWI. And rare. It means you have some control over yourself. Most WS's don't fall into that category, and I'm guessing most WS's did NOT try everything that you tried in terms of communication. I know my wife did not though she will claim she tried to get through to me. She did not. Not in any clear or meaningful way.


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT? (Sep 28, 2012)

JCD - 

First off, congrats on over a year of NC and working to rebuild your relationship with your wife. You should absolutely celebrate what you have accomplished and you guys deserve to be happy together!

I think you raise fair points that as betrayed spouses we certainly can't claim to be 100% unbiased in our view of the events. Whenever there are problems in a marriage, there are three perspectives - the husband's, the wife's and the truth. The truth is always somewhere in the middle. 

Do betrayed spouses naturaly have a tendency to absolve themselves of some of their shortcomings? Very likely. Being truly honest with oneself in this area is extremely difficult, as it can be painful to accep that we are not as strong, capable and perfect as we would like to think. Accepting that we can fall short and fail to deliver what our spouse needs/needed is a painful realization for anyone. BS or WS.

Human nature is what it is, regardless of whether you are a BS or a WS. We all want to focus on our good features and minimize any shortcomings. 

But I also think it is unfair to claim that a BS failing to meet needs or ignoring requests to meet needs green lights an affair. In your post you say that "maybe the BS didn't have much of a problem (becuase they WERE the problem), so why did anyone have to cheat?" 

No one *has* to cheat. Cheating is always a choice. No one is forced to cheat by a BS, regardless of how massive their failure may be. And when you say that you "allowed another woman to fill the seat your wife left vacant", I think you again are not being 100% honest. The seat wasn't vacant, as you were still married. 

Your wife's failure to help you meet your needs justifies you being angry, pulling away from her and even deciding to pursue divorce if you want.

In my earlier post on this thread, I freely discussed areas my wife and I were failing to meet eachother's needs. I own that I was not meeting her need to feel appreciated. To feel listened to and supported, and to be viewed as a true equal on every level (skills, intellect etc). But to imply this forced my wife to have an affair is crazy. To imply that this justified her choosing to sleep with another man is simply blameshifting in its truest sense.

My wife was failing to meet my needs as well. In the last 5 years of our marriage (before the affair), we had sex less than 8 times. And during these 5 years I had repeatedly talked to my wife about this problem. Expressed that I needed that level of intimacy in a marriage, that I was unhappy. I tried to engage her in conversation around this issue, suggested we see a sexual therapist or a MC. I was open to doing anything needed to address this. She shut me out. Told me she was broken. Said there was something wrong with her etc. Each time I brought it up, she would cry and become depressed.

But at no point did I consider or pursue an affair. Here I was, a decent-looking, healthy, 32-year old man married to a good looking 32-year old woman and I was basically celibate!

My point is, even in that drastic and severe situation, if I had chosen to cheat, it would have been exactly that - ME CHOOSING TO CHEAT. And I would need to take ownership in my decision to do so.

I don't claim to be without shortcoming. I don't claim to have been a perfect husband, but I also don't accept that a WS is pushed into having an affair. A rocky relationship or problems within a marriage may open doors, but the choice to walk through that door is squarely the responsibility of the cheater.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

I've yet to see a betrayed spouse on this forum claim they did nothing wrong to cause the problems in the marriage. Clueless to the cheating? Perhaps. But that is different than being clueless to the problems leading up to the cheating.

JCD based his rant on a strawman of his own construction.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> I've yet to see a betrayed spouse on this forum claim they did nothing wrong to cause the problems in the marriage. Clueless to the cheating? Perhaps. But that is different than being clueless to the problems leading up to the cheating.
> 
> JCD based his rant on a strawman of his own construction.


Liking that. I'd even dial it back to say only that I have not seen any BS claim to be perfect. Which is a bit different.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

BH here. My needs were not being met and I was so under the illusion of love that I didn't realize that I was being taken for granted. It was always about her, her, and her. My friends tried to tell me, but I didn't listen. I thought doing everything for her would make her happy and that in turn will make me happy. Never happened. STBXW is a person who needs constant external validation and admiration. The sad thing is that happiness comes from within, no one can make you happy unless you do what is right, not what you desire. I failed to see it, and paid the price of putting up with b*lls**t for way to long, being a doormat. My STBXW still fails to see where happiness comes from.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

life101 said:


> The sad thing is that happiness comes from within, no one can make you happy unless you do what is right, not what you desire.


YESSSS!!!!! I never cheated on anyone, not because of who THEY were, but because of who *I*am!!

If we keep striving to do the right thing, we'll never have to worry about cheating again!

Vega


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

BS in a long term EA chiming in... I would have to say that prior to finding out, my H did fulfill all my needs. I never felt I was getting less of him even during the 2.5 year EA. I can only assume I was not meeting his emotional needs- since he responded to his AP and kept it going for so long. He won't admit it, but what else would I conclude? I wasn't enough, but honestly he met all my needs and I loved him very deeply. I told him all the time too, but I didn't stay in contact during the day because of my job. He always wanted to hear from me or for me to text him during the day and I didn't listen that, that was a need for him. I thought it was ridiculous to need that much contact. But he did communicate that to me and I ignored it.so when the OW infiltrated our lives, she sure filled that void... Texted him all day, e mailed everyday, and sent him care packages to his job too! I would bet that HER H was NOT getting ANY of his needs met however.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

life101 said:


> The sad thing is that happiness comes from within, no one can make you happy unless you do what is right, not what you desire.



This is the key. My STBXW is still unhappy and searching for something which will make her happy, not realizing that the key to happiness starts from within. I realize now that my stbxw didn't even love herself, so it was unrealistic to expect her to fall back in love with me during our false R.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

JCD, I think you miss the idea of the original post. I think the question was about the fact that the WS almost always says their needs were not being met... But the question was were the BS needs being met? I think the majority of BS can tell you that, no their needs really were not.

I am one of those. I was by no means a perfect husband. I did try to meet my wife's needs. I really thought I was doing a decent job as a husband, but I was a bit on auto pilot. Now as I looked back, she was not a super wife. She did not meet all my needs either.

If she was unhappy, she could have suggested MC etc... It just didn't happen. It is far harder to work on a marriage than to cheat. The hard work isn't instant gratification. It doesn't have fast progress. It doesn't bring the chemical highs than an affair has. It is far easier to cheat. You can always get a divorce. Cheating is not ok. If you are working at reconciling that is great! I applaud your efforts.

You are right, as a BS I was not perfect and did not meet all my WW/XW needs. Well neither did she. I will tell you though, because I was honest, and I owned and corrected many things about myself. She still blames me for everything and still treats me with absolute disrespect. I don't care but her not owning her faults has eroded her relationship with her kids... sooooo not my problem. I am of the opinion that most cheaters are just more selfish... The misleading truths and lies they tell really get so tangled.

You really want a lot of empathy or sympathy for your cheating. You want everyone to understand why you did it... Really 90%+ don't care why you did it, most everyone thinks it's just wrong, but you are human so forgive yourself. Also please remember you are a man. You should Pee standing up. Stop the me me me, understand me, forgive me crap. No one hates you. Stop trying to justify your cheating. It was wrong. Forgive yourself and work on making your marriage stronger.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_Sometimes the WS’s is not allowing the BS to meeting their needs. Sometimes the WS has needs that no one can meet… they are just broken people._


Very perceptive. This is rarely mentioned on here. Very recently my STBXW said that she wasn't unhappy in our marriage. That's not why she left, and told me that I shouldn't try to figure it out (I wasn't). 

My guess is she's broken. Childhood abuse, genetic, a combination? Who knows. Whatever her needs were (are) I'm not even sure she really knows, but they evidently aren't being met by her AP since she has recently expressed the desire to reconcile. But then we're back in the same boat we were in. 

No one can fix another person, and maybe some people can't be fixed. Best to move on and save on the heartache.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I don't think it's fair to write off broken people completely, but awareness of the ways they are broken is critical to dealing with relationships with them. But whatever the reason, ig they can't live up to their vows I suppose that does give their spouse the right to leave the relationship.

For me, even though I'm not a disloyal kind of person, I'm sure I'm broken in some ways, and so I've been trying to identify those ways and accept them.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

Can someone clue me in on what people mean when they say "needs?" It sounds so ridiculous sometimes.

Imagine living in a third world dump and some charity came along asking you to provide them with a list of 5 things you needed. Would any of the "needs" which your spouse "failed to meet" be on that list?

There were lots of things I *wanted* from my xWF. I would have liked it if she had done something about those wants. In the end she didn't but instead hurt me and I walked away from her.

I'm still alive and healthier than I've been in 4 years. So, I truly didn't have *needs* for her to meet or, ultimately, any *need* for her.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Labcoat, for me it helps make it more clear when I add the word "relationship" behind the word "needs". Basically, what needs does a person have _to make a relationship work_.

Communication, respect, affection, love (and the various ways people express it to each other), financial accountability, sex & intimacy, hygiene, etc...


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Lon said:


> Labcoat, for me it helps make it more clear when I add the word "relationship" behind the word "needs". Basically, what needs does a person have _to make a relationship work_.
> 
> Communication, respect, affection, love (and the various ways people express it to each other), financial accountability, sex & intimacy, hygiene, etc...


Still, I think it does take experience to understand how all these "needs" get expressed and fulfilled on a day to day basis.


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> Still, I think it does take experience to understand how all these "needs" get expressed and fulfilled on a day to day basis.


it also depends on their love language... the 5 love languages book, find out your parters love language and this helps

gifts
physical touch
words of affirmation
acts of service
quality time

if your parter / wife/ hubby is not doing your love language you can end up feeling un- loved


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## ubercoolpanda (Sep 11, 2012)

When the WS is in the fog they probably don't even realise when the BS is giving them affection. Because they're too busy thinking about their affair partner and/or feel guilty if they give advances back to the BS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

ubercoolpanda said:


> When the WS is in the fog they probably don't even realise when the BS is giving them affection. Because they're too busy thinking about their affair partner and/or feel guilty if they give advances back to the BS.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let's take this step further and contemplate how the WS might even demonise the BS over just about anything........ to justify their affair.


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## ubercoolpanda (Sep 11, 2012)

True!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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