# Inter-religious acceptance



## RandomDude

This is one major disagreement between my wife and I, though for her she reckons I'm being "guided" by some higher power and I just don't know it (lol - she's cute, but she's wrong  )

We're no longer fighting about our religious differences anymore, but at the same time, it does make her unhappy, and she feels like a bit of a failure (she's Christian, I'm shamanist). My particular faith however allows me to believe in anything or nothing at all.

Throughout my life I have been forced to learn 'grey' rather then black and white. As such I'm more morally fluid - something my wife can be rather intimidated by. I prefer to have people in good spirits in my life, so I'm not inheritedly a bad person, but I don't have anything against an eye for an eye, in fact, I believe in it, and accept it as part of the natural cycle.

This does cause my wife some concern, as she believes that her God is 'the way, the truth, and the light', while for me it's 'do what you have to do'. She is admittedly embarrassed that she can't "bring her own husband to Christ"... and her dream was once to open up her own church.

I just can't believe as she does, and I wish that one day she can just accept me for who I am despite the fact that I forge my own principles and make my own laws (I had to since I was a child). I still follow a moral compass, even if it's different then hers and more flexible.

In fact, for a time, she passed on Christian wisdom that even I would be a fool to ignore, hence she played more of a part in my current day moral compass than she thinks. Still, how to make her happy?


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## Gaia

You cant make her happy random. She is responsible for her own happiness but im sure you two will evemtually find a healthy balance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude

Well how can I at least convince her to be happy about my beliefs?


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## Starstarfish

You can't.

You could come to an agreement about her being tolerant and not putting down/shaming your beliefs or to keep you from believing them. But - if you expect her to to "be happy" and exuberant and encouraging of your belief, I'm not sure I see that happening. 

By your self-description, you seem to a moral relativist, whether something is good or bad is relative to the circumstances at hand, you make up your own rules/personal laws as you go along. That's - fundamentally divergent to the core tenet of the Christian faith which teachers that there is only own moral set of rules - those handed down by God, most succinctly in the Ten Commandments, but throughout the biblical text. 

I am however, curious about your definition of "shamanism" if it doesn't include a belief in some kind of spirits or "higher powers."

Also - what is your daughter taught? Is that a source of the contention?


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## RandomDude

That's the answer I guess I just don't want to believe heh

Yes I'm a moral and cultural relativist, which does make me very tolerant to people from all walks of life, cultures and whatever their profession or past. My beliefs are in sharp contrast to my wife's, we're opposites in this.

I do believe in spirits and the natural order, but I don't believe in its sentience, they are as real to me as the wind that blows. Furthermore we do have "higher powers" so to speak, but for me, I don't believe these powers are sentient. We're very tolerant to other opinions, my faith itself is more for spiritual enlightenment and healing rather then a moral code - and even then it can be rather fluid - we had war shamans for example back in the day. But we didn't encourage it and very few practiced it - as to channel negative energy to our enemies meant we had to take the negative energy within ourselves, not something alot of people want to do lol

My wife takes my daughter to church which I'm not in full agreement with but I have yet to see an issue so far, she gets to meet people and have fun with other kids so no biggie. It'll become an issue if she comes home and then says something like "this person said you are going to hell" lol

She used to be extremely tolerant before she went to bible college (which led to our first real breakup years ago before marriage), now it's a lingering issue =/


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## heavensangel

You could come to an agreement about her being tolerant and not putting down/shaming your beliefs or to keep you from believing them. But - if you expect her to to "be happy" and exuberant and encouraging of your belief, I'm not sure I see that happening. 

Good advice. God tells Christians to love everyone with the love of Christ. This is part of the great commission. What this says to me is that I'm supposed to be accepting of all others no matter what they believe or how they choose to live their life. As I live out the example of loving them as Christ does, it's then God who works in their hearts and turns them towards Him. What happens when we judge others for what they believe, the effect it has is the exact opposite of this. No matter how hard I try, I can't save anyone; that's God's job! I'm just supposed to be a living example. 

Sorry if this sounds a little too preachy...... My H is a believer, but if he weren't, the only thing I could do is Pray that God would work through me to bring my H to Him. 

And I surely hope your daughter never comes home and tells you you're going to hell. Yikes! That wouldn't be fun!


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## RandomDude

Yeah, my wife used to believe that, I wish she believes it still. She was the only Christian who actually made me even pay any attention to the ways of Christianity at all. It was because she was tolerant, and non-judgemental, and in my opinion, based on what she has taught me - that's what Jesus did. Although now she believes Jesus wasn't exactly tolerant, so she's confused, and hence I'm confused.

As for my daughter coming home one day and saying that... well can't say it WOULDN'T be fun, at least it won't be fun for THAT person who told my daughter that. If he was a bloke he would end up on the ground with my boot on his face. Ah... the benefits of believing in an eye for an eye 

LOL I'm kidding of course  I'm not like that, at least not anymore heh


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## moxy

People often cling to the righteousness when they're feeling insecure about something or other. It gives them a feeling of safety. Perhaps she was less insecure about whatever is troubling her before and it gave her an opportunity to be more accepting of difference. Is there something that is troubling your wife? Something which would make her feel the need to establish this kind of certainty or predictability and try to impress it onto you when she didn't do so before? Have you tried asking her WHY it has become so important to her to try to convert your beliefs to something more like her own? Don't do it in an ambush kind of way or in a way that will make her get defensive, but try asking her why this is so important to her when it wasn't before, what it means for her that you are less interested in changing your definitions, what her worry is about your relativism and unwillingness to be fixed in place that has her so bothered now...


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## RandomDude

I have asked her what made her change from who she was and who she became, she reckons it's just a switch in beliefs when she learnt more about her God in bible college (I have a vendetta against that particular church organisation actually - due to this), and I already know she puts alot of importance in her beliefs and religion.

She's threatened by my unpredictability, both my good and bad sides are just two sides of the same coin that I flip at will. She also admitted to me that she was a bit disturbed years ago that I hospitalised a whole bunch of my mates for the sh-t they said about my daughter. I've never hit her, and I will never do that (unless she wants me to, that's another thing), but she has seen me "flip the coin" before I guess...

My beliefs do not encompass just 'one way' to do things, each individual has their own opinions and life. Which is completely different to her beliefs, and I'm more vengeful then others of my faith who are generally much more peaceful. It is encouraged to be peaceful, negative energy is well, just negative. But I always do what I have to do, and take care of the consequences beforehand, same principle when I was on the streets during my teens doing crime.

I can see it's not always malicious what she tries to do when she preaches and stuff, to be honest I need it. She balances me out to be honest - I need to learn how to forgive more. But it's just her way in thinking her way is right for me and that if I give my life to her God my problems will be over or some such, but that I can never do. I respect her faith and encourage it as it's part of her, and I love her for it, but no, it's illegal in my culture to bend knee to anyone, even a God.


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## moxy

This is just my opinion and I may be way off base, but this is what I think. I don't think this is about religion, but something else.

Your volatility makes her feel unsafe or insecure. Some part of her deeply mistrusts your ability to contain and control yourself. She's finds some kind of anchor in her faith and wonders if it will anchor you as well. The truth is, she probably knows deep down that she is using this newfound connection to religion to make her feel safe when what she needs to do is talk to you about this problem and hear some kind of reassurance that you won't go ballistic, that she can trust you, etc. I'm guessing that either you can't or won't give it, so she is hoping to come at this from another angle, without even realizing it. She sees something in you that is need of healing and wants to heal it, but you won't let her, so she is trying to do it another way. That's how it appears to me. 

I'm sorry to bring up other stuff, but on some of your other threads, it seemed like you were playing head games with her about a number of things and often. I think you have a trickster sort of personality (archetype, not the pranking class clown type) and that it unsettles her because she hasn't accepted some sort of balance in herself yet. I'm guessing that you unbalance her more, rather than making her feel like she is by your side against the rest of the world and that maybe she fears you will turn on her; maybe you don't really know if you will or not and she senses it. I wonder if these head games helped her to feel vulnerable and unsafe and insecure to some extent, necessitating the need for something else to anchor her. I'm guessing that in some of these games, you've wounded her more than she's admitted to you and that whatever hurt her feelings deeply is getting channeled into this dispute/conflict.

Any of that seem like it makes sense?


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## RandomDude

Well, she obviously feels safe enough to demand sex from me and continue trying to push my boundaries. I doubt she's scared of me, if anything she's just scared of what I may do that may lead to more trouble (such as the court cases due to those assaults)
My violent nature has nothing to do with my faith however, it's something that has persisted since life on the streets. My faith brings me the peace and acceptance for myself and my own mistakes in the past without the guilt that will shatter me apart if I look back. Just like her church gave her her peace, my faith gives me my peace.

I'm a trickster, as in... a "tricksie lord"? LOL how so? The flirting/teasing/games etc? =/ I've stopped the games actually, either then just poking her for reactions but she does it too - it's our banter I guess. I can see that she does want to try to heal me, and I do admire her ability to forgive, but I just wish she stops trying to convert me at the same time. She also has an annoying habit from time to time when I give her a compliment she compliments her God, give her another compliment and off it goes again to her God. Erm no hun, I'm complimenting YOU, YOU YOU YOU... -.- *sighs* But I've learnt to live with that, it's humble I guess, or maybe she just likes to see me try hard to compliment her lol

I don't know... I guess if I show her that I can control myself and won't get into trouble then maybe she might leave me alone but the fact is - she's my anchor as well, as well as some of her beliefs. I havent really told her that actually... not in this manner anyway =/


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## moxy

Maybe you should tell her that. It might make her happy.

I don't mean to imply that she is afraid you'll beat her up, just wondering if your volatility makes her feel insecure, as if you will turn on her or leave her if she doesn't measure up to some criteria in your mind/framework that is all you and not part of her worldview; or, like she is afraid that someday you will stop seeing her as great and lump her with the rest of the world. Maybe...,more like she isn't included in your logic and is afraid it will betray her somehow, in a way she can't protect herself against...that is what I was getting at, not actual fear for her physical safety and well being, but, for something in your connection...I could be totally off base, but that's what I'm guessing.

It's good that you're not playing head games and banter is fun. Can you think of anything that might have made her feel threatened? 

Maybe it's simply that she is just religious now and wants you to follow suit and that is that...still, it seems like a big thing and I'd suggest getting to the bottom of why this matters to her deep down.

The Trickster archetype is less about being a deity of any type, more about being a playfully destabilizing force that reveals truths through the disarming of the balance; at least that is how I see it.

I do think that beyond easing her fears and conditioning her tolerance (or requesting it), there's not a lot you can do about her desire to heal/save you from the pain of your past by way if religion or something else.


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## RandomDude

Erm... the leaving part... well I guess I haven't exactly made her feel secure in it... when I first joined this forum, this particular issue was ALOT worse, to the point I joined this forum - she was at her prime of her cunning, I saw how capable and manipulative she can truly be if she wants to be -> she twisted our entire social circle to side with her including her family and almost forced me to submit to her and her wishes and her religion.

I pretty much put the foot down, and showed her that I could flip the coin even for her (though I didn't really flip, I just stood up for myself) - by mentioning the D word as I was NOT going to submit, and forced seperation. She's abit... traumatised from that. She has opened up to me in regards to her own demons since then though, and I doubt it will happen again. Still I did what I had to do, but as for her security in this... well, I don't know.

Ironic isn't it? =/


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## ShawnD

RandomDude said:


> Well how can I at least convince her to be happy about my beliefs?


She will be more accepting of your beliefs if you can get her to argue against her own beliefs. People get defensive when you directly attack their beliefs, so the more effective approach is similar to the Colbert Report - pushing a left wing message by arguing in favor of right wing ideas to the point of absurdity. This is the textbook definition of satire. Another term to become familiar with is Poe's Law which states:


> Poe's law, named after its author Nathan Poe, is an Internet adage reflecting the fact that without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism.[1]


Really think about what that means. If you become a parody of religious extremism, it's very difficult for people to know if you are joking or serious. 


Convert to Christianity:
Say you had a dream like Saul of Tarsus and you've seen The Truth. The key here is that you are never lying. People have dreams all the time, and "truth" is a subjective thing when you start relying on dreams (fantasies) as a source of information. 

Read the Bible:
It's important that your wife knows you are reading the bible and taking notes. This shows you are actually serious about being a Christian. This gives you a leg up on most people because a huge majority of people never read the bible, or they didn't understand what they were reading. Knowing what the bible says allows you to claim that everything everyone does is wrong, and you can back it up with scripture. For example, everyone knows the bible says homosexuality is wrong, but a lot of people don't know that the same book in the bible says tattoos are an abomination as well. Knowing these rules, you can be an insufferable jerk then innocently claim that you're just following the bible. The goal is that your attitude and behavior get worse as you become more religious. Eventually your wife and others will argue against your religious beliefs, and they will try to convert you back to atheism. While doing this, they might convert themselves to atheism as well.

Attend Church:
Church is a great way to get religious discussions started. Listen to everything the preacher says and think about it. On the car ride home, calmly and happily debunk every single thing the preacher said. The bible has a lot of conflicting parts, so you can use the bible to argue against almost anything. For example, the preacher will say Jesus brings peace to the world. This is wrong because:


> Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
> -Matthew 10:34, King James Version


You can either say that passage and leave it, or you can extrapolate and go into the crazy-zone like Pat Robertson would.

Memorize Bible Passages:
1) Buy and read a "contemporary English version" of the bible and write down all of the parts that sound silly or insane. A CEV bible is written in modern day English, so it's very easy to understand what's going on.
2) Buy a King James bible and memorize the approximate wording of the crazy parts from step 1. Example, a modern English bible will say something like:


> There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
> -Ezekiel 23:20, New International Version


Now that you know this passage is about a woman who loves ****, memorize the old translation:


> For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.
> -Ezekiel 23:20, King James Version


Feel free to use these passages to defend weird things, and try to oppose the viewpoint of other Christians. When someone says romance novels are a sin, kindly point out the parts of the bible that talk about and glorify sex.

Follow the Bible:
To show how serious you are about being Christian, follow some of the rules stated in the bible. Try to latch onto the really obscure rules that don't make any sense. Some examples:
-do not wear clothes made with more than one type fabric (Leviticus 19:19)
-never cut your hair or shave; this includes your back and your wife's legs (Leviticus 19:27)
-kill your son or daughter if they mouth you off (Leviticus 20:9)
-talk about how much you want to kill Sylvia Browne; I actually agree with this bible passage (Leviticus 20:27)
-blind and crippled people are not allowed in church (Leviticus 21:17)
-people who curse God must be killed (Leviticus 24:14)
-if your wife claims you are totally insane with your religiosity, you must kill her (Deuteronomy 13:5)
-talk about wanting to kill two billion humans and all animals in India and China because they do not follow the Abrahamic religions (Deuteronomy 17:2)
-as men are entering church, ask if their testicles have been crushed (Deuteronomy 23:1)
-if your brother has sexual problems, you should sleep with his wife so she gets pregnant (Genesis 38:9)
-if a woman's defense against a man involves squeezing (or kicking?) his balls, the woman must have her hand cut off (Deuteronomy 25:11)

Try to remind your wife that adultery is only bad if it causes harm to another man. For example, do not covet your neighbor's wife because that's _his_ possession. You can sleep with as many women as you want as long as those women are wives or concubines (a concubine lives in the same house but has lower social status than a wife). 
The cool part is that the rules about wives are very relaxed. Example, you can force prisoners of war to marry you:


> See among the [war] captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself, then you shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall also remove her clothes and shall remain in your house, and you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.
> -Deuteronomy 21:11


Another reason I love being catholic is that the penalty for rape is only 50 shekels.


> f a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives”
> -Deuteronomy 22:28


Learn the Church Customs
One of the things I love about being Catholic is that I get to literally eat human flesh. It tastes rather bland, but it's not without its charm. Transubstantiation


> In Roman Catholic theology, transubstantiation is the doctrine that, in the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and the wine used in the sacrament is changed into the substance of the Body and the Blood of Jesus,[1] while all that is accessible to the senses remains as before.[2][3][4]


The other fun tradition of Catholicism is S&M. It's not good enough to say you are sorry. You need to beat the hell out of yourself to show it. A _cilice_ is a metal chain with spikes that is worn around the thigh. Being in constant discomfort tells God that something something, so that's what we do. Another tool we use is called a _flagrum_, which is a short whip used to whip our own backs. Studies have confirmed that this is a very effective way to get high without taking drugs. In response to overwhelming pain, the body releases a lot of endorphins, and the word endorphin is an abbreviation of _endogenous morphine_. We don't need morphine from opium; we get the same effect from whipping ourselves. 

War Against the Church:
Jesus was a trouble maker, and so should you be. He spoke out against BS, and he attacked money changers who made a mockery of the church. You should follow the teachings of this man and speak out when the church is wrong. Example:


> You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
> Exodus 20, commandment #2


Step into the church and look around. You will see a large graven image of Jesus on a cross. You need to tear that down and condemn the rest of the congregation. You will also see stained glass windows portraying the saints. You must destroy these windows. All drawings of heaven or hell must be destroyed. Refuse to watch episodes of South Park that show God, Jesus, angels, or Satan.
Many things are punishable by death in the bible, so be vocal about how many people should be killed, why, and quote exact passages. Make a huge scene at McDonald's because the place is still open on the sabbath. Numbers 15:33 explicitly says that people working on the sabbath must be killed.

De-conversion
After your wife declares that you are a lunatic, and you refuse to kill her because you think the bible may be a little bit flawed when it demands everyone be killed, you can go back to being an atheist. She'll be glad to have you back.


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## moxy

Shawn, I find your post very amusing. I can also see how such strategies become passive aggressive and how they could backfire. Her religious zeal may be unwelcome, but she is being sincere about something that matters to her and such an approach could be seen as deeply hurtful because its mockery is so intimate. Still, it was an interesting POV.


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