# Need help with a strange phone conversaton



## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

Hello community. Need you assistance with a real phone conversation that took place recently. 

I would like you to read a phone conversation between two heterosexual spouses, named here as Person A and Person B, both 45+.
The names of the people mentioned in the conversation are not their real names. 

Situational description:

Persons A and B are talking on their personal cell phones at 5:42 PM on a Monday evening. They have a long history of communication and distrust problems. Both had heart-breaking relationships before getting married. Married for 20 years with kids soon to leave the "nest." 
They both claim no OPs in their lives, ever.

They both seem moral people with unresolved marital issues, mostly trust and some financial issues. Person B indirectly accused Person A of an affair (without a direct proof) several years ago, but after one year of marital therapy things settled down to a routine.

Person A is at work. The work place shuts down at 5 PM. The building doors are locked after 5 PM and there is no way in or out of the building without tripping up an alarm unless a security code is entered within 30 seconds. As a rule, nobody stays at the office after 5 PM except occasionally for Person A and possibly another executive, Person A's manager (of the opposite sex), who likes to go in to work late. The building has 2 floors. There are around 50 people working in the building during work hours -- just to give you an idea about the size of the building. Person B does admit that the whole idea of the spouse occasionally staying after hours (without paid overtime) inside a locked-down building feels uncomfortable, and that Person A is aware of that.

At the time this conversation takes place, Person B is at home, some 10-15 miles away from Person A’s office. 

Person B calls person A around 5:30PM to figure out who is picking up a teenage child from a practice. 

Person A calls back 10 minutes later.

The conversation is written here as perceived and disclosed by Person B:
(spaces between lines are pauses in conversation)

*********************************************************************************************

A: Hi, you called?
B: Yes. Where are you?
A: Still at work, finishing some stuff up.
B: Jake called me; he needs picked up from his practice. Are you leaving soon?

A: I can’t leave yet. Can you get him?
B: OK. Will do… By the way, I went to see the doctor today. He said… 
(person B telling person A about the doctor’s appointment for a couple of minutes)

A: (away from the phone, yet clear enough): Wait, wait, wait…

B: Hello?

A: Yeah, I am here.

B: Well, as I said, the doctor said the surgery is a strong possibility…
(Person B continues talking about the doctor’s visit basically repeating what was said earlier)

A: Aaah. (away from the phone, yet clear enough — the inflection is clearly one of pleasure, according to Person B)

B: What are you doing?

a long delay

A: What’d you say? (almost mumbling, a bit out of it) 
B: Where are you? Are you in your office?
A: I am downstairs in a cubicle… oooh… finishing some work for Vanessa… uuuhmm...

Now Person B hears 5 or 6 very loud repetitive noises… like someone banging a metal drawer on an office desk in succession while the phone is on the desk… or a woman in high heels walking across an empty hallway with granite/marble floors, or perhaps someone banging an empty public toilet cabin door against a door frame. Person A does NOT sound like talking from an empty toilet or a hallway. There is no echo and/or reverberation to the voice.

B: What the hell are you doing? Are you there by yourself?

there is a long pause...

A: …working…

Person B does not hear a keyboard clicking… no discernible background noises now. I think at this point Person B is already very suspicious.

B: Hey, Gordon is here.
A: Oh, good, let him leave his paperwork.

(Person B gets up to greet Gordon)

B: Hey Gordon, what’s up?
Gordon: Dropping off paperwork for (Person A). 
B: You want to speak to (Person A)? We are on the phone.
Gordon: Sure.

B: Hey, you want to speak to Gordon?

A: What was that?
B: Gordon is here with his papers. Wanna talk to him?
A: No. Just take the papers.
B: OK.

Person B moves the phone away from the ear to speak to Gordon.

B; Gordon, just leave the papers. (Person A) can’t talk to you now. Still at work, you know.
Gordon: OK.

Gordon gives Person B the paperwork and quickly heads down the steps of the person A & B’s family dwelling.

B: Thank you Gordon… 

B: Gordon just left… 

A: (silence)

B: Hello?
A: (away from the phone, not quite clear): … comin’…?

B: Helloooooooo….?

Now Person B hears again 3 or 4 of the same repetitive noises over the phone.

A: uhhmmm…. ooh…. (away from the phone, but clear enough)
(this is clearly pleasure noises according to Person B, no ifs and buts about it, as if possibly Person A is taking a loud, long overdue d-u-m-p)

B: What the hell is going on? Hellooooo?!

a brief pause

A: Did you take Gordon’s papers?
B: Yep, I got his papers. He just left.

another brief pause

A: Don’t come yet. (away from the phone, but quite clear, according to Person B)

Several seconds later, after the ‘Don’t come yet’, Person B hears again 2 or 3 of the same repetitive noises.

A: (away from the phone): Oooooooooh! 

a long pause

B: Hello?… …Heeelloooooooo?

Person B hears again 2 or 3 of the same repetitive noises, but much softer now. After that, there is another pause of several seconds.

A: Oh… yeah… (mumbling into the phone, more less out of it) …. so… who …uuuhmmm… else is … coming in tonight?


B: Who else is coming in? … Wow! Obviously not me.
A: Yeah… Ok… So… …what are we doing tonight? (the last statement is finally coherent from person A)

B: Well, I was thinking about making out, but that doesn’t seem to be in the cards tonight.
A: Oh, that stuff. That could be later in the night. I was thinking about this evening.


B: Did you just have an orgasm?
A: What are you talking about?
B: Where were you two minutes ago?
A: I was in the bathroom. 


B: I am confused.

30-45 seconds of nothing being said now passed. Person B is waiting for Person A to respond.

A: … hmm… thirty… fifty… What did you say?

It appears that person A is doing some calculations.

B: Never mind… I see you are busy. I’ll see you later. Bye.
A: OK. Bye.

Person B does not hang up immediately. Another 15-20 seconds passes. Person B can hear tapping on the keyboard for the first time during the conversation. Person A hangs up.

*********************************************************************************************

The whole conversation took 12 minutes, according to Person B who looked up the phone records the following day.

Person B seems aware of the possibility that this was a cognitive dissonance moment for her/him. Person A is not available for a third party confirmation. When confronted by Person B in a round-about way several days after the incident, Person A told Person B that she/he is crazy and jealous and that she/he cannot continue on like this (understandably). 

Person B also claims that Person A had no recollection of the fact that Gordon dropped of his papers.
Person B also claims that Person A had no recollection of Person B told her/him about Person B's doctor's appointment.

I would say to Person B to go seek professional help except for one thing: several years ago Person B did hear "I love you but I am not in love with you" statement from Person A (this is confirmed).

What is your impression of the conversation? (person B certainly believes it).
What would you advise Person B to do?


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## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

At face value it would sound like something sexual is happening, but why would A call B back while in the midst of said potential sex?


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

That is the real question, isn't it?

Several possibilities as I see it. In either case, A is aware of B's concerns, so abruptly ending a conversion while B is talking is tricky for A:

1) Perhaps A was "warming up" when the B's call came in at 5:30 PM? Person A figured, "if I do not reply, B will be asking questions again." Thus, a quick call to B, a minute or two and then back to "work." Except B suddenly started talking about the doctor's appointment and then A's client showed up at the door step... basically, no clean end to the conversation from A's point of view.

2) Perhaps A was in the middle of it at already at 5:30 PM when B called, and answered the phone for a quick discussion afterwards, at which point A's OP decided to get at it again and took A by surprise.

I am not sure.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

That was definitely sex.


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## header (Nov 14, 2015)

You asked her if she just had an orgasm?

Seriously that's not how to approach it even if that's what you're thinking.

She's not going to say "oh yeah I was screwing my manager while I was on the phone with you".

All she'll do is twist it around and make you sound paranoid.. which of course she has already done.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

A having sex or B imagining A having sex? That's what's bugging me.
B definitely believes she/he heard the sounds, noises, statements away from the phone. Can B have possibly imagined the noises, sounds, statements away from the phone while A was quietly working at a desk all along?


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> A having sex or B imagining A having sex? That's what's bugging me.
> B definitely believes she/he heard the sounds, noises, statements away from the phone. *Can B have possibly imagined the noises, sounds, statements away from the phone while A was quietly working at a desk all along?*


No.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Now, this is interesting. 

All I'll say is this:


> I am downstairs in a cubicle





> I was in the bathroom.





> Person B also claims that Person A had no recollection of the fact that Gordon dropped of his papers. Person B also claims that Person A had no recollection of Person B told her/him about Person B's doctor's appointment.


Hire A PI.

In 12 minutes, this person could have gone to the bathroom with all of the pauses. All the comments cannot be explained away by you telling this person to get help. Yes, even if there was no ILYBINILWY speech.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Is it possible that person A was not only having sex, but also intoxicated?


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

I have known both A and B for a long time. Frankly, I can not wrap my head around the idea that A is even capable of something like that.

My dilemma is if I should advise B to find a shrink ASAP or to trust the self. B is visibly torn/paranoid (as you put it). B does not have a history of mental disorders, but is asking me if finding a shrink is the right step?


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

header, you said, "SHE"... just curious, what made you conclude that person A is a SHE?


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> I have known both A and B for a long time. *Frankly, I can not wrap my head around the idea that A is even capable of something like that.*
> 
> My dilemma is if I should advise B to find a shrink ASAP or to trust the self. B is visibly torn/paranoid (as you put it). B does not have a history of mental disorders, but is asking me if finding a shrink is the right step?


Why not?

And I do not think a shrink is the way to go. I think a VAR in A's car is.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Is it possible that person A was not only having sex, but also intoxicated?


Interesting twist. I have seen A get a loose tongue a few times in social settings. Not aware the A uses marihuana, or something that could get A to get that intoxicated in 30 minutes. Then, on the other hand, a few quick drinks could get a person "loose" rather quickly. Hmmm... interesting take.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> Interesting twist. I have seen A get a loose tongue a few times in social settings. Not aware the A uses marihuana, or something that could get A to get that intoxicated in 30 minutes. Then, on the other hand, a few quick drinks could get a person "loose" rather quickly. Hmmm... interesting take.


I asked that because of A not remembering the parts of the conversation about the doctor's appointment and Gordon/paperwork. And being seemingly unaware of the pauses, background noises being made, etc. Unless there was so much passion and ecstasy going on everything else went out the window!

And just because this happened at 5:30 doesn't mean the two of them didn't take a "late liquid lunch" somewhere before going back to the office, or have alcohol in the office, etc.


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## header (Nov 14, 2015)

wrt said:


> header, you said, "SHE"... just curious, what made you conclude that person A is a SHE?


This part of the post quoted below:



wrt said:


> A: Don’t come yet.



What man would ever say that?


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> I asked that because of A not remembering the parts of the conversation about the doctor's appointment and Gordon/paperwork. And being seemingly unaware of the pauses, background noises being made, etc. Unless there was so much passion and ecstasy going on everything else went out the window!
> 
> And just because this happened at 5:30 doesn't mean the two of them didn't take a "late liquid lunch" somewhere before going back to the office, or have alcohol in the office, etc.


You have a good point here. I don't know how much alcohol would have be present for a person not to remember a conversion. 


Perhaps, not remembering the parts of the conversation could be due to not listening to what B was talking about (while distracted.) But then, A did reply to questions about the client. Would would make reply to those things, and then not remember it afterwards? Hmm!


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

header said:


> This part of the post quoted below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hahaha... you must be a woman, or know people really well. 

I think you just turned me over to B's view of the story. A is a woman, you nailed it, and I think you are absolutely right. 

Could B as a man have even possibly imagined her saying "Don't come yet!"? More and more unlikely to me. Great catch!

Unless a female demon or something that crazy was whispering in B's ear all along. 

As you can see, I am desperately trying to find every excuse/explanation in defense of A.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Hire A PI.


I did suggest that to B. B says the office building is "Fort Knox." No way for PI to get a glimpse as to what is going on inside. B thinks that OP is married also, and that this is strictly an "office affair," if such thing is even possible. 

I'll admit, this is a all a very foreign world to me. But I am learning a lot. Thank you for all of your replies thus far.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Saw something on the Jeremy Kyle Show a while back.

A husband was convinced his wife was cheating on him.

He even had a recording made covertly of her having adulterous sex in the marital bed.

In reality the recording showed no such thing.

Jeremy Kyle looked at the husband and said: "And how long HAVE you been a heavy cannabis user?"

It turned out that the husband had fried his brain with heavy cannabis use and was suffering from cannabis induced paranoia and his wife wasn't cheating at all.

Could something like this have happened here?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

I thought A was a woman from the beginning when you said B wasn't super comfortable with A staying in the office after hours. 

I can't think of anything that would sound like "don't come yet" or "wait, wait, wait" (that part is very damning....who exactly was she telling to wait, and why??)


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> It turned out that the husband had fried his brain with heavy cannabis use and was suffering from cannabis induced paranoia and his wife wasn't cheating at all.
> 
> Could something like this have happened here?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think someone would have discovered by now if B was a a heavy canabis user. That said, I think that B was using some nerve calming medication for a back problem around that time. I'll have to check with him.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> I can't think of anything that would sound like "don't come yet" or "wait, wait, wait" (that part is very damning....who exactly was she telling to wait, and why??)


I hear you, loud and clear. I had the exact same reaction. But then, we all believe what we want to believe and I want to believe that A is not a guilty party here and be turned over to the other side before I tell B that I have to agree with him and that he is not crazy. A "Double Bind" either way, even for me at this point. And I cannot simply ignore B. He needs a friend. At least I was willing to hear him out and contemplate possibilities, which cannot be said for some other folks who immediately told him to get a shrink. That's how much of a good standing Person A has in her environment. Good mother. Always ready to help anyone at a moment's notice. Selfless, almost, to all around her. I personally have seen some things with her in social settings that left me slightly wondering about her. Yet, nothing necessarily much of the ordinary, to pinpoint and have an Aha moment. Just a feeling from my side as a neutral observer over the years, along the lines of "too good to be true."

Don't know. And do not want to judge either way.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

wrt said:


> I did suggest that to B. B says the office building is "Fort Knox." No way for PI to get a glimpse as to what is going on inside. B thinks that OP is married also, and that this is strictly an "office affair," if such thing is even possible.
> 
> I'll admit, this is a all a very foreign world to me. But I am learning a lot. Thank you for all of your replies thus far.


LOL. Unless you two have PI licenses and have been doing the job for years, don't make assumptions. He hires a legit, well referenced PI and lets the professional make the call on what is or is not Fort Knox.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

wrt said:


> I think someone would have discovered by now if B was a a heavy canabis user. That said, I think that B was using some nerve calming medication for a back problem around that time. I'll have to check with him.


I checked with B. He used Gabapentin, but cannot recall if he used it that day. Webmed says No hallucinations as a side-effect. 

And I know B is not a drinker. OK.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Interesting. You don't want to judge, but you were going to join the chorus of "get help" if he hadn't relayed the ILYBINILWY speech. It's funny how infidelity has no real defining quality, but we all have our bias. A great giving dad or mom get's the benefit of the doubt, while the other spouse is always jealous or needs help.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> LOL. Unless you two have PI licenses and have been doing the job for years, don't make assumptions. He hires a legit, well referenced PI and lets the professional make the call on what is or is not Fort Knox.


Perhaps PI is what he should do. Or trust himself without material proof.

How much does that stuff cost, does anyone happen to know? What happens if PI discovers nothing?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Unless you hear the conversation itself it is really hard to say what exactly went on. It sounds like sex but a lot of times you can have confirmation bias- you think it's sex so it sounds like sex. "don't come yet" could be "don't come in" or 'hey A, did that fax come in?' "didn't come yet" Sounds and pauses could be her getting up and walking towards the bathroom, getting in, taking down her pants (all with a phone in one hand and slipping off her ear/shoulder) and using the toilet. I don't think anyone can say 100% what went on. 

I'd keep letting b vent to you and encourage them both to talk about it in counseling and be transparent with phones and computers. I wouldn't say anything about being sure one way or the other. You just don't know.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

SecondTime'Round said:


> That was definitely sex.


Yep. Trust your gut, OP. Get confirmation and then figure out what you want to do.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Interesting. You don't want to judge, but you were going to join the chorus of "get help" if he hadn't relayed the ILYBINILWY speech. It's funny how infidelity has no real defining quality, but we all have our bias. A great giving dad or mom get's the benefit of the doubt, while the other spouse is always jealous or needs help.


Haha... Really well put. I have become fully aware of that bias, my unknown friend. Psychology has a term for it. "Double bind." Look it up if you are not familiar with it. A real nasty concept without an "authority" to resolve it.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

wrt said:


> Perhaps PI is what he should do. Or trust himself without material proof.
> 
> How much does that stuff cost, does anyone happen to know? What happens if PI discovers nothing?


Family is saying he needs help, his wife is saying he needs help, you were close to saying he needs help and he is obviously confiding in you because he is starting to believe everyone. There are many things he can do before going the PI route. Tell him to call a few reputable lawyers and see who they recommend. Then call the PI, tell them the situation and then see if it is in is budget. Reputable PIs are discreet and if he is wrong, he can go get help and come clean to his wife.

You have to look at this way, how much does peace of mind cost?


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I don't think anyone can say 100% what went on.


You know, what bugs me about the toilet story is that one would think he would have heard her flush the toilet. He claims he did not. I cannot find any sounds even remotely resembling flushing a toilet in his story, unless, of course, he conveniently forgot that part, or perhaps did not hear it while he was talking to the client/paperwork visitor.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It sounds like sex but a lot of times you can have confirmation bias - you think it's sex so it sounds like sex. "don't come yet" could be "don't come in" or 'hey A, did that fax come in?' "didn't come yet" Sounds and pauses could be her getting up and walking towards the bathroom, getting in, taking down her pants (all with a phone in one hand and slipping off her ear/shoulder) and using the toilet.


Yep. Right there with you. Except why there would be ooohs and aaaahs after, for example, "fax didn't come yet?" Unless she was in the bathroom while talking to someone at the same time. But then, why would she move the phone away while talking to someone else? What's there to hide. How many circumstantial things would have to happen at the same time along with his "confirmation bias" for him to end up in a lala land?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

wrt said:


> Haha... Really well put. I have become fully aware of that bias, my unknown friend. Psychology has a term for it. "Double bind." Look it up if you are not familiar with it. A real nasty concept without an "authority" to resolve it.


 He's the one who is in a double bind. He is either a jealous cad or she is cheating because of the information provided.
You are just a sounding board with bias, like the rest of us posters, unless this story is about you.....


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> I hear you, loud and clear. I had the exact same reaction. But then, we all believe what we want to believe and I want to believe that A is not a guilty party here and be turned over to the other side before I tell B that I have to agree with him and that he is not crazy. A "Double Bind" either way, even for me at this point. And I cannot simply ignore B. He needs a friend. At least I was willing to hear him out and contemplate possibilities, which cannot be said for some other folks who immediately told him to get a shrink. That's how much of a good standing Person A has in her environment. Good mother. Always ready to help anyone at a moment's notice. Selfless, almost, to all around her. I personally have seen some things with her in social settings that left me slightly wondering about her. Yet, nothing necessarily much of the ordinary, to pinpoint and have an Aha moment. Just a feeling from my side as a neutral observer over the years, along the lines of "too good to be true."
> 
> Don't know. And do not want to judge either way.


My ex's OW has been described to me by everyone who knows her practically as Mother Teresa. Great mother and great with kids, born-again Christian, never gets mad, has so much energy to cater to everyone, is in a medical service job, a giver, a giver, a giver. She had a 5 year affair on her first husband. I didn't know her then but I'm sure everyone was shocked by her behavior, too because she's a modest, "respectable looking" woman, doesn't dress like a ****, etc. 

Anybody can cheat.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> You know, what bugs me about the toilet story is that one would think he would have heard her flush the toilet. He claims he did not. I cannot find any sounds even remotely resembling flushing a toilet in his story, unless, of course, he conveniently forgot that part, or perhaps did not hear it while he was talking to the client/paperwork visitor.


Or if it happened while he was talking to her. Don't phones mute out noise from the other end while you're talking? I always assumed it was kindof ok to pee while the other person was talking! :laugh:


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He's the one who is in a double bind. He is either a jealous cad or she is cheating because of the information provided.
> You are just a sounding board with bias, like the rest of us posters, unless this story is about you.....


Correct. It does not take much for a "sounding board with bias" to become aware of his "double bind." For us posters it is just a story with missing information, with one exception. Namely, me. For me this is about real people I know and care about, one of which reached out to me for a life changing advise. I think that is the difference in my case of a "sounding board with bias." 

If I can relate to his "double bind," it is through my own attempt not to be "biased" either way. 

I am usually quite strong-minded and have used "Occam's razor" many times to address and resolve dilemmas. I assess, decide, act, and move on (advise one way or another, or not advise, at least not yet, in this case). I have used it both in personal and professional life with success prior to this. What am I missing here? Have I been drawn into it too deep without realizing it? Am I starting to empathize too much with him, and thus "my bias?" 

I admit, I am in a dilemma myself, as to what a proper course of action for B is. That's why I posted it. If he is a "jealous cad," as you put it, he's got some serious issues. Thus, a shrink.

But what if a PI comes up with nothing, while she is a guilty party after all, and we just sent a completely innocent man to a psychiatrist. A shrink would also face the same "bias" due to a lack of proper information? 

Perhaps B already has proper information: She is not cheating on him, and he did indeed have a cognitive dissonance moment that requires professional attention. Or perhaps his gut is correct after all? I definitely get his "double bind."

Perhaps suggest that both to go to a shrink together if she agrees to it? It would make sense for her to try to help him, if she is innocent, doesn't it. But what if she refuses? Perhaps that is a real test for her? 

I would think if she cared about him, she should go with him and try to help him. Right? I certainly would if I was in her situation, being unjustly accused, assuming she cared enough, which she should, I hope. But than, I am a "problem solver" by nature.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> My ex's OW has been described to me by everyone who knows her practically as Mother Teresa. Great mother and great with kids, born-again Christian, never gets mad, has so much energy to cater to everyone, is in a medical service job, a giver, a giver, a giver.


Goodness, this is like you are describing Person A. I hope everyone can understand know what I am so reluctant to get in the B's corner all the way.



SecondTime'Round said:


> She had a 5 year affair on her first husband. I didn't know her then but I'm sure everyone was shocked by her behavior, too because she's a modest, "respectable looking" woman, doesn't dress like a ****, etc.
> 
> Anybody can cheat.


Just curious, how did the affair get discovered?


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> I am usually quite strong-minded and have used "Occam's razor" many times to address and resolve dilemmas. I assess, decide, act, and move on (advise one way or another, or not advise, at least not yet, in this case). I have used it both in personal and professional life with success prior to this. *What am I missing here?* Have I been drawn into it too deep without realizing it? Am I starting to empathize too much with him, and thus "my bias?"


What you're missing is first-hand experience of the situation. You've only heard his side of it.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Or if it happened while he was talking to her. Don't phones mute out noise from the other end while you're talking? I always assumed it was kindof ok to pee while the other person was talking! :laugh:


Sorry to break your illusion. Not quite. Phone technology is bidirectional. You can listen to a background music on the other side of the line while you are talking to that person.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> Goodness, this is like you are describing Person A. I hope everyone can understand know what I am so reluctant to get in the B's corner all the way.
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious, how did the affair get discovered?


I have no clue, but she's not very bright so I am surprised she got away with it so long. I only know because her ex-husband found me on Facebook, sent me a message and told me about it. (I have a very long, sordid story and this woman was once my ex-husband's second wife, before he divorced her because he never loved her, tricked me into reconciling with him, then cheated on me with her and now he's back with her....I realize how Jerry Springer it sounds. It's embarassing.) 

Her ex-husband sent me this message, and we corresponded a few times, the FIRST time they got together and got married (very quickly after our divorce). She did not cheat on him with my ex-husband, but with another man, who she then dated for 3 years until she got pregnant by him and decided she didn't love him enough for that so she aborted the baby and 2 months later met my ex-husband if I understand the timeline correctly (ETA: I only know about the abortion because my ex told me when I reconciled.....let's just say he's regretted me having that knowledge after cheating on me and getting back with her....). They got engaged 2 months later and within the year they were married. I don't even think our divorce was final when they got engaged, although it may have been around the same time. Hell, maybe it was a celebration of the divorce. 

Anyway, everyone who knows her has her on a SUPER high pedestal, including my kids. They love her to death. You'd never guess what was behind the exterior. Don't be surprised at what people are capable of.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> What you're missing is first-hand experience of the situation. You've only heard his side of it.


Oh, no. That's not correct. She called another close family friend right after it all happened and told her that he is going crazy and jealous again -- the same thing she told him (her husband). I could not quite get all of the details... everyone is threading lightly here, as you can imagine.

I suspect that should would tell me the same thing if I confronted her.

So, it appears that she is sticking to her story of "I don't know what you are talking about" all around. 

So, since she claims complete ignorance about his "perceptions" it's a scratch, information wise.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> Oh, no. That's not correct. She called another close family friend right after it all happened and told her that he is going crazy and jealous again -- the same thing she told him (her husband).


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Anyway, everyone who knows her has her on a SUPER high pedestal, including my kids. They love her to death. You'd never guess what was behind the exterior. Don't be surprised at what people are capable of.


This story is much simpler. First marriage for both. 

She is a regular Sunday church goer. "Mother Theresa" and "Virgin Mary" combined, if you ask me, until she gets drunk socially, and then a tiny, tiny crack or two appear.

He, not as much. Both are pretty smart, educated folks.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> This story is much simpler. First marriage for both.
> 
> She is a regular Sunday church goer. "Mother Theresa" and "Virgin Mary" combined, if you ask me, until she gets drunk socially, and then a tiny, tiny crack or two appear.
> 
> He, not as much. Both are pretty smart, educated folks.


Yeah, I've had an eventful 5-6 years......

My advice for your friend would be to shut up with his wife about his suspicions and act like it never happened, but start investigating, whether that bet through a VAR or PI, or.....?? If she has a work phone, he'll be out of luck with looking at the bill, so the VAR may be all he will have to go on.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> so the VAR may be all he will have to go on.


What is VAR?


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> What is VAR?


Voice activated recorder. They can be purchased at Best Buy and attached by Velcro underneath the car seat. I've never done it, but lots of folks here have done it and would have good advice.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I think you need to invite your friend here.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

wrt said:


> But than, I am a "problem solver" by nature.


Maybe, but you sure are doing the opposite in this thread. 
This initial problem can be solved, one way or the other, with some light or heavy sleuthing. Yet, you are doing what most possible or betrayed spouses do, you start playing the what if game to save your world. You know, doing everything except making a decision to move forward. I get it, I really do because this can totally destroy a marriage either way. Still, limbo is like a death by a thousand cuts. Honestly, I'd rather my marriage end quickly, my fault or not, than live 20+ married years and have terrible doubts.

Get your friend to post because no matter how close you think you are, you are still a second hand source.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I think the whole pull the phone away and say don't come yet.. or sounds of sex while on the phone is a bit crazy.. I mean You can't stop for a second and say to the other person on the phone "Sorry can I call you back in 2 minutes ?" or why call back if you are in the middle of fvcking 10 minutes later.. Or stop.. make the call and make it short and sweet and be done.. 

But having sex while on the phone with a spouse ? While I'm NOT saying its impossible.. It just boarders on the line of utter stupidity and pretty much saying I care so little about you I don't care if you hear me fvcking someone else.. 

Further.. Call ME CRAZY... But I know what my G.F. sounds like when she is getting fvcked.. Because I fvcked her enough and in every position and location ( that she was okay with ) humanly possible to know.

So I don't need anyone else's opinion to ask "Hey does this sound like my G.F. getting fvcked ?"... 

Unless you think I am just nuts enough to be imagining this stuff.. Is the person that crazy to be *THINKING* this is happening ?


Just not enough about person A and B to make a serious answer.. Beyond who is level headed here.. Who is more crazier.. 

Again I am more crazier then my GF... I don't hide it.. I am perfectly clear when she says you (meaning me ) just need all the attention... I say, Yes I do.. I need to be that special snowflake.. I need to be above everyone else in your life when it comes to friendships and relationships of any sort.. 

But I am not that kind of nuts.. I don't imagine stuff..


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

@Hardtohandle, you describing yourself as a special snowflake cracked me up!


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## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

for sure people have had sex while talking to other people on the phone- 

maybe i'm out to lunch but I'm pretty sure H and i did while he was on the phone talking to his MOTHER - it was near the beginning of our relationship when everything is so chemical---disrespectful and kind of gross now I think about it but just saying- could she do it with a new AP with all those chemicals going while talking to her husband?? maybe…..I wouldn't count it out


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> I think you need to invite your friend here.


I agree. I think you guys, being neutral, and speaking from experience, can perhaps assist him more than anyone in his immediate environment.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

Hardtohandle said:


> So I don't need anyone else's opinion to ask "Hey does this sound like my G.F. getting fvcked ?"...
> 
> Unless you think I am just nuts enough to be imagining this stuff.. Is the person that crazy to be *THINKING* this is happening ?


I agree 100% except this is wife of 20 years with kids and not a GF. I think that would change an equation a bit?! 

That said, I know how my wife 'comes' down to a shortest breadth. 

And that is why I am concerned. What kind of stuff has been going on behind closed doors for this man to go from "She is ****ing while on the phone with me" to "Have I imagined the whole thing?" 

Something doesn't compute here, does it?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Yep definitely red flags somewhere. 

Has he done the obvious? Checked phone records, messages, PC?

Usually if it is something it'll show up.

Normally isn't confined to just the work place but stranger things have happened.

Was the call recorded or just his interpretation?


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

Hardtohandle said:


> But having sex while on the phone with a spouse ? While I'm NOT saying its impossible.. It just boarders on the line of utter stupidity and pretty much saying I care so little about you I don't care if you hear me fvcking someone else..


Yes, but she is telling him "You are so crazy jealous to make this up in your head. It is all your fault." 

Thus, either way, HE will NEVER know. Thus a "Double Bind" for him. 

If he dumps her, he screwed up, he loses a woman he loves because of his jealousy. 

If he does not dump her, he has to live with not knowing the truth, "in utter misery constantly wondering" as someone put it in here. 

At the end of the day, he would never know the truth, right? Is that the crux of his issue? Isn't that actually his double bind? How to move on realizing he may never know the truth?

How does he learn to live without needing to know the truth?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

wrt said:


> Something doesn't compute here, does it?


Sure it does. If she is so perfect you even doubt him, what is he going to do against a cacophony of naysayers? 

It computes, it's called wearing a person down.

Reread all of your posts again. You are trying to be neutral, but you even lean towards him being off. Now imagine EVERYONE, including the cheater saying these things over and over and over again. Ask anyone who was doubted before finding proof of inappropriate conversations or an actual affair. Unless the man or woman was an orgy obvious tramp, people will convince the betrayed spouse he or she is jumping to conclusions. 

Heck, before I found my wife's texting, my parents and my oldest daughter said "she didn't have time" blah blah blah. I initially doubted myself, but realized either I ruin my marriage or save it one way or the other. I knew my gut and didn't listen. Who knows where I'd be if I had waited. I searched high and low and never found evidence of a physical affair, but the communications were highly inappropriate. To the point, I think an affair would have happened if I would have doubted and waited.

It's one of those things rarely talked about on this website. 
The marriage is already in severe trouble: 
When the ILYBINILWY speech has appeared. 
People are saying a spouse is overly jealous. 
The other spouse is saying their partner is overly jealous.
A spouse is Snooping.
The spouse asks if the wife had an orgasm at work.
Excessive time at work for free on a regular basis.
A spouse is asking multiple other people for help.

The sad thing is it may not be an affair, but their communications and actions towards each other appears awful. 

Oh yeah, adults act like little kids when they are in an affair. I know I used to PURPOSELY mess with my wife, when she was on the phone. This was before we were married so, I am laughing at H2h's doubt. Heck my wife had an orgasm while on the phone with her mom. Yes, I was that disrespectful. I'd say the AP was marking his territory and emasculating her husband if it was sex. We have MANY horror stories here of what spouses do to each other in affairs, both male and female cheaters.

So, to me, if a PI or snooping causes you to divorce or separate you were headed in that direction already.



> At the end of the day, he would never know the truth, right?


 No, this is not true.


> Is that the crux of his issue? Isn't that actually his double bind? How to move on realizing he may never know the truth?


Only if he makes this choice. He may never know the full truth, but he can try to get answers enough to make a decision.


> How does he learn to live without needing to know the truth?


Where is the rule of law or marriage that says he must do this?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Solved with a polygraph. If she has nothing to hide she should not mind.

Past poster his wife and POSOM would get off on his screwing her while she talked on the phone to her husband and POSOM would giggle.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

wrt said:


> But what if a PI comes up with nothing, while she is a guilty party after all,


If she's stupid enough to be on the phone, let alone calling her old man while getting it on with someone, allowing him to hear the activity, it shouldn't be a problem for the PI. Or perhaps she wants him hear it. (or B is delusional)


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## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

I totally empathize with person B in this scenario. I went through something similar approx 6 years ago w/ my wife of 46 years. To this day I do not and am convinced never will know the truth about our little incident. I know first hand of my wife's ability to lie and to hold fast FOR EVER to that lie. In my opinion person B will never know, but that's not the crux of it in my opinion. If you are with someone and after a period of time (years) and you find yourself in this situation there are only two things you can do. Bury it deep inside and never let it out again. (In my opinion women are superior to men doing this.) Or leave. Period. Irreconcilable differences. Being alone at work after hours and not earning any monetary benefit doing so is a direct slap in her husbands face! That is a deal breaker.


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## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

I heard a conversation (VAR) about how H wouldn't take the f…ing test….(referring to taking a poly he had assured me he would take)

It was difficult to hear the conversation. I listened to it 20 times before i was able to get that much out of it.

I confronted him with this conversation- I was angry about him lying about being willing to take the poly. Of course he denied everything- called me crazy- said I'm delusional -making things up to support my views etc…I started to doubt myself, it was very difficult to hear- I have been wrong before…

Then a couple of nights ago I was referring to this conversation and he says "I was just singing - I was happy cuz I was going golfing and I was singing….you heard me singing to myself" 

Sooooo you were happy and singing to yourself "I'm not taking the f…ing test, she can't make me take the f…ing test…?"
H-"yes thats what I was doing"

BAHAHAHAH!!!!!! 

How many times have the details changed in the retelling to him?


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Sure it does. If she is so perfect you even doubt him, what is he going to do against a cacophony of naysayers?
> 
> It computes, it's called wearing a person down.
> 
> ...


I agree with this completely. 

Also while I feel definitely that she is cheating and being brazen enough to do it on the phone, I don't feel your friend has the courage to flush it out by, as the above poster suggested, doing a polygraph or hiring a PI or what have you.

he needs his friends to be on his side while he's being abused. Either push him to join here or encourage him to hire a PI, read Weightlifter's standard evidence thread and start employing it or do something. 

It sounds like at the minimum she is in a deep sexual affair at the minimum and that is divorce worthy as it is and very nasty.

She doesn't walk on water. Your friend needs support.

A wayward spouse labeling a betrayed spouse as mentally unstable and isolating that betrayed spouse from others is purely out of the cheater's handbook and borders on NPD.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

A is having an Affair and she is going crazy because she can rub it in his face.
She have no respect or love at all. Speaking to your husband while having sex with another person is SICK for me.

Also her husband told her about surgery. Damn it could be something serious but she does not care.


Tell him to RUN and dont look back.

Sorry.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

WRT, have you heard the recording in its entirety?

If so, what is your take on it? 

To your mind, was the spouse having some kind of sexual connection with their lover?


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## where_are_we (May 24, 2013)

I want to participate in this thread, but I am so confused by the A and B story I can't even keep it straight.

So, my understanding is that the husband called his wife at work and he thinks she was having sex while talking to him on the phone. Wife says husband is imagining this and these things were not truly heard? Do I have this correct?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

My understanding is that its worse. The wife calls the husband back while supposedly banging the other guy and making noises and comments that could easily be overheard and not mistaken for anything else. I've literally seen this happen before, but it was the wife's utter contempt for the husband. 
If that's the way it really went down, this guy needs to submit his marriage resignation papers.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> My understanding is that its worse. The wife calls the husband back while supposedly banging the other guy and making noises and comments that could easily be overheard and not mistaken for anything else. I've literally seen this happen before, but it was the wife's utter contempt for the husband.
> If that's the way it really went down, this guy needs to submit his marriage resignation papers.


:surprise::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

where_are_we said:


> I want to participate in this thread, but I am so confused by the A and B story I can't even keep it straight.
> 
> So, my understanding is that the husband called his wife at work and he thinks she was having sex while talking to him on the phone. Wife says husband is imagining this and these things were not truly heard? Do I have this correct?


Basically, Yes. 

I spoke to him today. He promised he'd get on line and read this exchange. In the mean time, a few more bits and pieces of info from him.

He checked her cell phone. Nothing out of the ordinary.

His dilemma of whether his wife was "banging" at work while on the phone with him has morphed into "Am I crazy? Have I invented the whole thing in my head? Has my jealousy made me that sick?" 

Why does he feel he may be ill? 

My analysis:
1) the episode was a shock to him, whether true or invented in his head -- he feels he needs a resolution/truth one way or the other
2) she has insisted, according to him, over the last several years (before and after ILYBINLWY) that all of their marital issues stem from his unfounded jealousy. 
3) she is sticking to the same story line in this particular case, actually refusing to even acknowledge his questions for further clarification -- basically, she claims being disappointed and hurt by his unfounded accusation. Shew told him that he is focusing too much on her and he needs to find something meaningful to do instead of constantly wondering if she is unfaithful, because she is not.
4) He now feels that she does things in spite sometimes (justification game or a correct assessment on his part? I don't know, obviously)

Her answer to his question of what the incident in question, as I understand it and paraphrasing it, was: "I was in the bathroom. I have no idea what you are talking about. What noises? What orgasm? You are a sick jealous man and it has to stop."

I think that he loves her and would prefer, in some sick way, that he'd rather be sick as she claims. He said: "Then I would know what to do." Huh! One of the previous posters said something about "clinging to his worldview of the marriage," or something along those lines.

I can't tell you if he is truly that jealous or not when they are alone. But I can tell you that everyone around them knows she does not feel she needs to ask him for a permission to, for example, go out to lunch with someone. 

So HIS dilemma is: Is he morbidly jealous, or is she trying to bury him alive? Not enough information to determine which way it is, since she is NOT talking, and she is the information authority.

To apply Occam's razor, what is the simplest of the three above mentioned possibilities?
One with the least number of assumptions, is the answer. 

But which one has the least assumptions?

As far as the incident itself is concerned:
A) the cheating option:
1) she is cheating on him
2) she was careless or wanted to be caught
3) she is now lying about it (well, this is not an assumption, that's a consequence), thus only 2 assumptions are valid

B) he invented the conversation in his head:
1) he is jealous/she is not cheating on him 
2) had a cognitive dissonance moment/invented the conversation or heard something with a bias

So it's a draw. Can someone offer better assumptions?


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

wrt said:


> Person B also claims that Person A had no recollection of the fact that Gordon dropped of his papers.
> Person B also claims that Person A had no recollection of Person B told her/him about Person B's doctor's appointment.


What about these anomalies? 

A: Further evidence that everything is a figment of B's imagination

or

B: Well the doctor's appointment thing is so mundane. What is that doing in the middle of a paranoid delusion? And Gordon either dropped off papers or he didn't. That's verifiable, isn't it?


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> A having sex or B imagining A having sex? That's what's bugging me.
> B definitely believes she/he heard the sounds, noises, statements away from the phone. Can B have possibly imagined the noises, sounds, statements away from the phone while A was quietly working at a desk all along?


It's technically possible the sounds could have come from somewhere else, but that would not explain the long pauses by person A. Even if they were reading email and not paying attention, they would have snapped back to attention when their spouse questioned them.

What I don't get though, is why call your spouse and make audible sex noises? That is definitely bizarre. I would definitely start snooping if I was person B. Look for signs of an affair and/or or mental health issues.

Though my H and I work from home and one time this client calls me and is asking all these questions and talking to me about business ideas and I hear all this background noise. First it sounds like he's doing dishes. NOW he's flushing the toilet! I was like WTH? He called ME. 

Then I remembered H sometimes listens to my calls so he knows what's going on. I went running downstairs and sure enough - he's on the phone doing all this stuff while I talk to this guy. He thought he had it on mute. I never heard from that client again...


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

azteca1986 said:


> What about these anomalies?
> 
> A: Further evidence that everything is a figment of B's imagination
> 
> ...


Oh, yes, he took the papers from Gordon. She did not remember him telling her that Gordon delivered the papers.

And yes, what was she so preoccupied with that she did not remember him telling her twice about the doc's appointment.

Either she was VERY preoccupied or she did not care about what he had to say. Or both. 

I am being "accused" of leaning toward her side of the story. Perhaps I am just trying to be very careful before accusing someone of such a horrid thing. Cheating is bad enough. But cheating while on the phone with him? Wow! These people are not teenagers. 

I doubt that anyone in his shoes would stay in a marriage if it turns out that she did it and then tried to play him all the way and try to make him crazy. Huh! How bad could it be, really?

The whole idea of a mature adult, a mother, regardless of her feelings about the hubby, doing something like that is totally insane to me. 

Perhaps I am more gullible than he is.:|


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

WorkingWife said:


> Look for signs of an affair and/or or mental health issues.
> [\QUOTE]
> 
> Mental health issues from her side crossed my mind as well.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

I guess a major step forward towards helping with her husband's alleged mental problems would be to take a poly.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

stevehowefan said:


> At face value it would sound like something sexual is happening, but why would A call B back while in the midst of said potential sex?


I could see an AP thinking it would be cute to start something up while person A is on the phone with her spouse. Kind of the way my H or I will occasionally do things to the other when they're on the phone with a parent or someone where that would be awkward.

Only in an affair it might be done as a possessive/territorial thing - "I'm going to do her while she's on the phone with her husband."

But it seems that person A would have to be out of his/her mind or really want to get caught (and be incredibly cruel) to go along with that and have long pauses in conversation and make sexual sounds even if they were being pleasured.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

nursejackie said:


> for sure people have had sex while talking to other people on the phone-
> 
> maybe i'm out to lunch but I'm pretty sure H and i did while he was on the phone talking to his MOTHER - it was near the beginning of our relationship when everything is so chemical---disrespectful and kind of gross now I think about it but just saying- could she do it with a new AP with all those chemicals going while talking to her husband?? maybe…..I wouldn't count it out


Same here - but to say "Oooh" and "ahhhh" and "don't come yet" without at least covering the receiver? And then be typing the second she thinks the call is over?

Just plain bizarre!


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

wrt said:


> Oh, yes, he took the papers from Gordon. |


Well at least we know she wasn't doing Gordon. Tell your buddy that you've heard of men having phone sex with their wives, but this is a little over the top.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> The whole idea of a mature adult, a mother, regardless of her feelings about the hubby, doing something like that is totally insane to me.
> 
> Perhaps I am more gullible than he is.:|


Stick around TAM long enough, and nothing will shock you anymore.


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## Borntohang (Sep 4, 2014)

VAR!


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Yeah, I've had an eventful 5-6 years......
> 
> My advice for your friend would be to shut up with his wife about his suspicions and act like it never happened, but start investigating, whether that bet through a VAR or PI, or.....?? If she has a work phone, he'll be out of luck with looking at the bill, so the VAR may be all he will have to go on.


I agree 
maybe even use a pen VAR (voice actuated recorder) in her purse.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

wrt said:


> Oh, yes, he took the papers from Gordon. She did not remember him telling her that Gordon delivered the papers.
> 
> And yes, what was she so preoccupied with that she did not remember him telling her twice about the doc's appointment.
> 
> ...


we have seen some worse here on TAM


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

There were several questions posted on the thread. Here is some clarification:

1) The description of the conversation 
- is husband's recollection of it (within 24 hours of the conversation having taken place). 
- no recording. 
- his recollection was "sticking" when I asked him about it again 2-3 days later, to the best of my recollection.
- obviously, his recollection could be biased or even spiced up afterwards to justify his fear induced conclusion.
- this was definitely not a case of phone sex between H&W that he misconstrued afterwards.

2) His concerns about the conversation:
- long pauses by A
- banging noises heard in the background
- A's "pleasure" noises away from the phone
- A's statements away from the phone, e.g. "wait, wait, wait..." "don't come yet," as he thought he heard
- A's 'memory holes": Gordon dropping off the paperwork and him telling her twice about his doc's apt
- now, a total breakdown in communication between the two of them, as he mentioned yesterday.

3) my concerns about his statements to me are regarding his bias:
- he has had his dilemmas about her commitment to the marriage before the phone conversation
- he did get an ILYBINLWY several years prior by her -- my feeling is that things did not get resolved properly at the time, if at all.
- he said to me that he did not answer the phone call by her with any expectations, it was just a normal attempt to figure out who is picking the kid up from a practice - so, no case of, "let me call her to see what she is up to," to pre-game his bias.
- he admits he went into a "careful listening mode" once he heard the "wait, wait, wait" away from the phone, the "banging" noises and "aaah" and "oooohms"
- he said he could not place the banging noises to anything familiar 100% -- they were VERY loud, and he was sure they were not taking place while she was "talking" -- I think this is why he asked her "what the hell is going on?" She did not react to the noises that she also must have heard, or was she that distracted?
- he admits he went into a "full panic mode" once he heard "don't come yet."
- he admits that he had a moment where he "felt her coming" after which, for a moment, he had no doubts as to what he just "witnessed," and he was in utter shock at that moment. (that said, how do you invent parts of the conversation and then get shocked by your own mind's invention?!) - I think that's why I think he asked her: "did you just have an orgasm?" once he collected or thought to have collected himself.

"The devil is in the detail," as the saying goes. Well, the details here are very, very, strange. It would take rather a very gifted story teller (him in this case) to come up with all of these details out of thin air. And to what end? I did not get a sense that he is looking for a way to compromise her.

I suggested a VAR to him this morning. I will keep you posted as to what happens next. I owe the posters as much. And thank you for taking the time to share you thoughts about this.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

What about the poly I suggested ? Her refusing to take one could be very telling.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> What about the poly I suggested ? Her refusing to take one could be very telling.


This^^^
Have him bring it up to her. I wouldn't spend the money on it but just watching her reaction should tell him all he needs to know.
He needs a VAR in her car and the pen VAR for her purse imo.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

Your friend is NOT jelaous and is NOT sick like his wife calles him.

ILYBINLWY is a old story for people who are checked out from marriage and in this case they didnt even talk about it. His wife simply decided it is ok to "return" and have her world just like she wanted it.

What is even worse about his "jealousy" is his wife,because she gos out with male friends when she wants to,text them when she wants to and then accuse her husband.

Tell him to run away.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

What did you mean about her going out without his permission? Out with who and where?

Did she say there were only two people at work that day?

Did she deny saying "wait,wait,wait," and "don't come,"?

If she's telling him all this she needs to take the poly. First though he needs to get the pen var and check it for awhile. Office/work romances are the hardest to discover. Has he suspected the two of them before?


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> Basically, Yes.
> 
> I spoke to him today. He promised he'd get on line and read this exchange. In the mean time, a few more bits and pieces of info from him.
> 
> ...


Has he ever had any other incidents where he thought he might have had cognitive dissonance? I'm no psychiatrist, but I don't think someone who is otherwise mentally healthy just happens to have an isolated incident of cognitive dissonance one day and then goes back to normal...

One thing that supports the husband's memory is the fact that there were concrete things that did happen for which he has proof. For example, either the papers Gordon (or whoever) dropped off were there or they weren't.

If the papers are physically there, we know for a fact that Gordon dropped them off at some point. She is saying he never mentioned the papers to her while on the phone. But why would his "raging jealousy" make him misremember that?

I think he should call Gordon up and ask him to recount how he remembered the exchange. See if Gordon recalls that 1) he was on the phone and 2) Gordon heard him ask his wife if she wanted to talk to him while he was there.

If Gordon remembers it pretty much like he does, that would indicate that he was mentally sound during the incident.

Mentally healthy people can lose it of course, and I have read that paranoia is one of the first signs of brain damage/injury. I have a dear relative who has MS which can affect the brain, and I'm sure she's also on some meds which can do that too. She's a very smart, capable person but she is also stone cold delusional sometimes. She was convinced that a neighbor lady had hacked her computer and put pornographic files on it and deleted some of her PDFs. And a few times she's told me she was being stalked by people on Twitter and FaceBook. (What are the odds?!) Then she said the person who hacked her computer was making it mock and ridicule her when she typed into google. So I jumped on my computer and typed in the search term she was using and got Google's auto complete which for that word were the lyrics to some song -- the lyrics were relevant to what she was feeling and she thought that was personally constructed by whoever hacked her computer to torment her... I think she even had homeland security or the FBI or something looking at her computer once because of all this. It's so sad.

Sorry, enough about her -- just saying crazy is unlikely, but it does happen.

I think your friend needs to:
1. Talk to the guy who dropped papers off (if necessary, come up with some excuse for why he needs to know, like he misplaced the papers and is retracing his steps.)
and
2. Hire a PI if he doesn't trust his own judgment. Otherwise, get a VAR in her car, etc. Maybe start recording all his own calls so he can play them back later if he is uncertain.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> I suggested a VAR to him this morning. I will keep you posted as to what happens next. I owe the posters as much. And thank you for taking the time to share you thoughts about this.


I definitely want to know what happens next!

BTW - as an outside observer, have you previously seen signs that he might get delusional?

Also, if he's a good enough friend to come to you about this, I'd think if he was irrationally jealous husband, you'd have seen signs of that before - like him constantly bringing up fears of her cheating.

Finally: He could tell her that she needs to leave work on time and pick the kids up from now on because he does not trust himself to drive them in the car since he's apparently having auditory hallucinations... Actually, that's probably not wise in case they do divorce that could be fodder for custody. But one does wonder if she thinks he's so delusional that he's inventing conversations and sounds in his own mind, why is she letting him pick the kids up?!


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

l


> The whole idea of a mature adult, a mother, regardless of her feelings about the hubby, doing something like that is totally insane to me.


So which threads do you want? 

The one where the ex-wife admitted to going bareback, coming home and having sex with her husband on purpose?
The story where wife gave a stripper a BJ and came home and kissed her husband?
The wife who butt dialed her husband and he heard them having sex?
The wife who was having sex in the basement while the kids were upstairs?


One you'll never see is deleted, where the wife told the husband she had a medical problem in a sexless marriage and it turned out she was doing BDSM with another man. Oh, he hired a PI who found out she was driving to the store, picking up the other man and pulling into the garage where no one would see him.




Oh yes, there are awful men stories on this board as well.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

> Also, if he's a good enough friend to come to you about this, I'd think if he was irrationally jealous husband, you'd have seen signs of that before - like him constantly bringing up fears of her cheating.


 Irrationally jealous people do not ask if they are, they spend time telling you a story so there is NO DOUBT in their mind. This guy is believing he may be delusional and is making pieces fit that do not. He is rationalizing sounds and making them fit the story she told.

I know my wife's orgasms, or so I believe, to the point I could most likely identify them. He panicked because he knew the sound. As was stated earlier, "don't come yet" is a very specific phrase most guys know well, early in their sexcapades.


Private Investigator yesterday.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Wrt, it is obvious he never resolved his past issues. 

It doesn't seem like he went to any sort of therapy or counseling.. Either for himself or together as a couple.

What is lacking in his life that he feels like this beyond that line of "ILYBINLWY" 

Lets assume she is loyal wife who is tired of his sh!t.. 

Then IF she loves him, I mean truly loves him then she should do whatever is needed to fix this.. I know I would and did to save my 20 year relationship/marriage.. I get it, you've been through a lot with someone. Many ups and downs in your lives.. Have kids together.. ETC.. You just don't give up on someone.. 

You give it the last real hard push and try to solve this one and for all. But that means NOT staying in a closed building. That means coming home... That means doing whatever is needed to fix your family.. 

But if she is just fvcking around and he just isn't sure.. At what point do you give up ?

Personally if it were me.. I would go to therapy for myself ( like I do now ) and I try to fix what is possibly wrong with me for the next person in my life.. I want to know if I am broken and if I am I want to fix it.. 

I know my issues.. But I also know what ARE NOT my issues.. 

I grew up and I learned.. It took a painful final affair to make me learn somethings.. 

Today I know that no one is worth it.. No one is worth my peace of mind.. I know where I fall short so my G.F. isn't gonna tell me or I will NOT allow her to tell me I am crazy about certain things.. At first I fought tooth and nail with her.. But now I am more direct and to the point.. Now its I don't like this.. This stops right now no excuses or I am out the door.. I don't want to hear a story or an excuse or a circular fight.. 

But it took my divorce to understand this.. It also took my divorce to learn what is needed to really save a relationship.. Infidelity isn't the end a marriage, but the person doing the cheating. The wayward spouse truly has to be crushed into submission.. Unfortunately that is hard for MANY Betrayed spouses.. Granted I DO NOT want to ever test out my theory again.. But I have learned you need to cut off all the heads of this hydra fast or they grow back.

So regardless of his issues. Unless he is really going nuts.. Something isn't right.. Something is not making him feel secure with her.. Why ? 

Was he always this insecure and just hiding it well from everyone but his wife ?

If I were in his shoes..

1. I would seek therapy and have my wife come with me.
2. I would demand some request to make me feel safe.. 
3. If she tells me no to any of these I would go myself to therapy and build up my strength to leave. Because she really doesn't give a sh!t about me and doesn't love me anymore.. But she is okay with just coasting.. Which means she is okay with fvcking around.. Again why ? because when you love someone, you will do whatever it takes to be with them and help fix them.. This is nothing different then having cancer.. Do you leave someone because they have cancer ? Do you not take them to chemotherapy if they need it because you have to work late ? 

So your friend just doesn't have the balls YET to fix this one way or another.. I didn't either until my wife left me.. Today I know there was no way I could ever have kept my wife from going.. I just didn't have enough strength to keep her..

But I also know she wasn't worth keeping either.. Again something else you learn.. Not because she cheated.. But because I wasn't smart enough the VERY FIRST TIME she cheated or tried to cheat.. I wasn't strong enough back then.. Again this stuff isn't black and white and everyone's story is different.. But life is short.. It really is.. Everyone needs to be happy..


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

WorkingWife said:


> Has he ever had any other incidents where he thought he might have had cognitive dissonance?
> I believe the answer is no, or he is not
> 
> 
> ...


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

Chaparral said:


> What did you mean about her going out without his permission? Out with who and where?


She has a small business gig on the side so she sees clients, male and female, on a regular basis after work hours, on weekends, etc. Some are also friends. She does not travel out of the city for business. So tracking her, with her life-style, huh?!?!



Chaparral said:


> Did she say there were only two people at work that day?


I think I forgot to include that piece of info. He actually got in the car right after the conversation ended, drove to her work place, saw three cars (her, her bosses, and another car, he thought it was the the boss' boss car) on the parking lot in front of the building. Then he turned around and went home, according to him, just as she was leaving the building by herself. This was all about 20-30 minutes after their conversation ended.

Thus, my conclusion is that she had to be in the building with one or two men at the time, both of them her bosses. She didn't mention them to the hubby during the conversion, though.



Chaparral said:


> Did she deny saying "wait,wait,wait," and "don't come,"?


Well, that's interesting. According to him, when he tried to bring the whole issue up with her, she blew up in his face, told him she can't take his jealousy any longer and stormed out. So, no, he never got a confirmation or denial from her. As you can imagine, he does not even know how to restart the conversation, while she is giving him a cold shoulder, and basically completely ignoring him.



Chaparral said:


> If she's telling him all this she needs to take the poly. First though he needs to get the pen var and check it for awhile. Office/work romances are the hardest to discover. Has he suspected the two of them before?


I believe he did 3 years ago. According to him, this guy sat down next to him at the dinner table (some company party), introduced himself, and proceed to say to him "Man, how do you manage with her at home? She is so wild." He said he did not know what to make out of it, thought the guy was drunk, but then witnessed this very friendly, almost teenage-like exchange between the two of them for a couple of minutes while he was sitting between them. The guy's wife who was sitting next to the guy was turning green and blue and pale, according to the hubby, who watched the whole scene unfold in mild amazement. 

Then Hubby questioned his wife about it, she got really upset, told him he was crazy, did not believe that her boss said what Hubby claimed the boss said... they ended up in counseling... she told him the ILYBINLWY a month later, but maintained her innocence and that he is sick, and that her boss, is just a harmless flirt with a bad sense of humor, and there is nothing to worry about. Hubby allegedly threatened to confront the guy, she told him not to make a fool of himself, she was afraid she would lose her job, they needed her income from that job, and basically, things were left unresolved in Hubby's mind as far as that incident was concerned. Then things settled down between the two of them, manageable, according to the Hubby. 

I get a sense that this was some kind of unspoken "don't ask me any questions for your jealousy will destroy the marriage" arrangement between the two of them. So, once he realized that she is consistently telling him that it is him and his jealousy, he let it go, and moved on, according to him.

Then he went out of town for 8 weeks out of the country on a business trip this summer. When he returned home, the two of them got off like they were just married for about a week or two. And then a month later, bam! The phone call...

So, YES, there is a history here. 

At this point I am suspecting that the boss got to Wife while the hubby was away on his business trip. Perhaps it got out of hand with her and the boss, and perhaps she did not know how to tell Hubby, and decided, to let him hear it. Or maybe it was just an accident, a "passion" moment, or the boss marking his territory, as somebody commented here, and her getting lost in the moment. Or perhaps she got so deep in with the boss that she let it play out as the hubby heard. 

Or perhaps the Hubby did have a "moment," and the poor women is a victim of his unfounded jealousy. Back to square one. PI, tracking, etc... seems to be in the cards if he wants to get to the bottom of it.

He loves her, and is having an awfully hard time with it, that much he believes.

Oh, well... time will tell.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Oh wow. So, we get more of a story. He went to counseling, didn't investigate and didn't trust his gut. This adds even more layers to the drama. He was taught to rug sweep and blamed himself for 3 years. The best part is, it is the same guy who raised his radar three years ago.

He needs to hire a PI immediately.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

WRT, if your buddy keeps living in this kind of crap, ain't a lot you can do about it. If its true, he's experiencing it with his own sense and continues to let it roll off for years. However certain things are so far out there its hard to beleive he's on the level. The guy telling him his wife is wild, her calling him in the middle of sex with the other guy; indeed. 
Unless there's a conspiracy among her and her boyfriends, via utter contempt for him, to rub his noise in the affair to see just how much he will take, it sounds like a load of crap or his the biggest fool you're ever going to meet, by knowing the score and putting up with it.
A woman with that much contempt for her husband and the marriage ain't like a dog crawling under a low spot in the fence and all you have to do is plug the whole to keep the dog. If true, this girl is letting him stay around for nothing more than shyts and giggles. What does he want you to do?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

OP have you heard the recording? 

If so what is your take on it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BrokenLady (Jan 19, 2015)

Just playing devils advocate.... What time do the cleaners come? Often cleaners become invisible to workers but make banging sounds & bad back grunts which could be misconstrued with a bad imagination....


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## Popcorn2015 (Sep 10, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> OP have you heard the recording?
> 
> If so what is your take on it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unless I misread, there is no recording.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Popcorn2015 said:


> Unless I misread, there is no recording.


Ah. No recording.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

OP - in your last post you stated he never had a chance to confront. I contend he did and she gave him the cheater's script answer. Just claim the BS is stupid.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

From my perspective its really simple. Whether his contentions are true, imagined, or made up, tell this cat to divorce his wife and move on. Both will be better off for it.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

naiveonedave said:


> OP - in your last post you stated he never had a chance to confront. I contend he did and she gave him the cheater's script answer. Just claim the BS is stupid.


You guys are just "killing" me with these abbreviations. What is OP? What is BS? Sorry, I just have to ask.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

She has lost all respect for him. Unless he finds his huevos there is not much he can do.
Sad but true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

OP-other person
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

OP= original poster(the person who started the thread)

BS= behaving spouse


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> WRT, what does he want you to do?


To believe him, I suppose. Which I do. I do believe that he believes everything he's told me. But I have no way of getting down to the truth of the matter (did she or didn't she?) any more than anyone else on this thread.

What can I do? Bring them together, give an introduction in case there is some miscommunication here, and ask them to figure it? 

I feel, if they can't do that themselves, then it has indeed gone too far regardless of the event in question. Sorry, my friend. But before anyone "cuts" my throat off on this thread for having said this, I am just one person who he confided in. I do not see anyone else in their lives getting involved in the middle of their problem. 

I hope that at the end of the day, he, or even she, does not end up blaming me for anything. I am simply trying to support him in his quest for the truth, whatever that truth may end up being for him (and her).

I am really not in a position to choose sides.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

What is the relationship between person on phone (B?) and person at office (A?).

I hd workmates that used to think it was funny to make "sex" noises if someone's partner called on the phone.

The distraction _could_ be them reading and report or debugging software or looking through an audit trail. What kind of workplace are we talking about.
The work is being done "for Vanessa" - perhaps the office is a great place for some down-low, or for websurfing with a friend, or porn-surfing with a friend...
Question is then why is person at office working on Vanessa's project.

The "sigh of pleasure" could be anything from - I found the bug, I won the online auction, to I'm sick of this and I've got to get up to use the toilet, or even just going after holding.

If the B-A relationship is boss, then toilet-phone is generally out of question, but if that not the case then toilet-phone is a possibility; and while toilet-phone is bad, flushing-toilet-phone is a no-no.

Anyway all said and done - with the needs in a relationship (and little Timmy having a appointment) this ranks as an EA - even if it is purely work. There are real relationship needs being avoided, and lack of planning and transparency about outside commitments to ones' partner - all for a third parties interests be they sexual or otherwise, and it is affecting the relationship.

A word with the boss about outside work hours time being assigned to projects without lead time to prepare.
VAR-time.
And straight up talk time - although chances are avoidance is the first fundamental being practiced here.

Also ask about the project, ask what Vanessa's project is. Ask about the thanks Vanessa gave. call up Vanessa's supervisor and address concerns about medical appointments being rescheduled because person A was called in to Vanessa project on subject X...and if the supervisor says "its necessary" or says "WTF?"... hmmm (ask supervisors name from receptionist, not from person at office (A?), no tip off. should only require a little social engineering...)


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

spotthedeaddog said:


> What is the relationship between person on phone (B?) and person at office (A?).


B = Husband, A = Wife
20 years married


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> OP= original poster(the person who started the thread)
> 
> BS= behaving spouse


Doesn't BS mean Betrayed Spouse?

WS = Wayward Spouse. BTW (By The Way!)


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

IF... IF..... He really has been jealous all these years.. I can understand her getting pissed off about him asking about the orgasm part..

BUT

I won't lie that the hairs didn't stand on the back of my neck and clearly suspected she was playing I am pissed off card because you caught me.. I mean what else can she do.. Anything less would continue the conversation to something she really has no answers to beyond your crazy.. You didn't hear it.. Eventually that falls apart when questioned enough..

So the cold shoulder treatment cuts off the discussion ASAP and any further discussion as well about it..

The other interesting thing here is that she doesn't respect him.. Because giving him the cold shoulder clearly states she doesn't care about his issues and that she does have the upper hand and control in this relationship..

He has to find a way to fix this balance of power as well..

Here is big issue.. He doesn't have the strength or courage to walk away from this relationship.. 

I can tell you there was a point in my relationship with my GF ( again remember I was with my ex-wife for 20 years prior ) where I caught her in a lie.. Not the end of the world lie.. But it was enough for me.. Right then and there I thought to myself.. Blow up.. Tell her off and walk out.. IF she follows you out the door to get you back then you won... IF she doesn't you walk away on top.. 

I called her a lying piece of sh!t and walked out the door.. In her hallway of her building.. She came running in front of me and asked me to go back in.. I could see she was scared and nervous.. She was telling me, Look please come back in.. I never did this for anyone before.. Please just come back in and talk to me.. 

I yelled a bit more in the hallway for everyone to hear.. I said about what ? To tell me what a LIAR you are ? To LIE to me some more ?... 

She asked me again and I walked back in and we talked.. It was a good moment because we both seen something.. She did something she has NEVER done before.. Which is go after a man... 

And I could see that as well. That was about a year and a half ago.. She still talks about, granted not with such worry today.. But that she came out after me..

My point with this ?...

This is what he needs.. His need to be in dire straits about him.. She isn't.. 

I think he needs to do the 180 and the MAP ( Male Action Plan ) from married mans sex life primer book ( MMSLP ).. The 180 is linked in my signature.. 

The MAP is pretty much like the 180.. He basically needs to start working on himself.. Getting in shape if he isn't.. Doing other things like a hobby of sorts.. Dressing nicer.. He needs to look better in his wife's eyes. Right now for example.. 

On a scale of 1 to 10.. 
She might be a 7 and he is a 5 or 6.. 
He has to improve himself to be either a 7 or an 8.. 
It doesn't guarantee he gets her back, but at least he will be in a better position to make an impression on another woman if his wife is cheating on him.. End result it is a win/win for him of sorts..

Again have him read the 180 stuff...


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

BS is betrayed spouse who is normally a BS (behaving spouse) unless it's all BS (bull$h!t).

By the way ....

Polly wants a poly. Polly wants apply. Polly wants a poly.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Oh wow. So, we get more of a story. He went to counseling, didn't investigate and didn't trust his gut. This adds even more layers to the drama. He was taught to rug sweep and blamed himself for 3 years. The best part is, it is the same guy who raised his radar three years ago.
> 
> He needs to hire a PI immediately.


I don't claim to know the whole story from 3 years ago, but based on what he told me, a drunk boss acting strange at a party in front of his own wife is certainly not a cause for a PI or a divorce, is it now? Isn't that a bit paranoid? What would be there to investigate? We all run into morons every day all over the place, right? One either believes the spouse, or not. Otherwise, we would all go crazy about every little thing our spouses do on a daily basis, right? This is where the gut feeling comes in, right? Well, his gut feeling did tell him that something was not kosher, but she/counselor/whomever convinced him that his gut was wrong.

I see other posters point: "She took him for a ride 3 years ago, he did nothing about it, and this is just a continuation of an office affair he/the husband had no idea about." 

She did give him ILYBINLWY after they started counseling, but her explanation was that it had to do with her displeasure to his jealousy. 
Could she have been covering? Perhaps. Perhaps there was nothing going on with the boss at the time?! Perhaps it was an emotional affair that even she did not realize was happening, but was enough for her to realize that she was not in love with her husband any longer, to question the marriage. 

Office affairs are hard to catch, someone here said. 

Hubby could have spent thousands of $$ on PIs and VARs and pens, spent countless hours looking for a proof after she comes home, while all along pretending that everything was OK and working on the marriage. And puff.. nothing. Ever. She is clean. Thus he must be jealous. So, perhaps, just perhaps, he assessed the situation, and said, forget snooping around, not worth it. Perhaps he did spoon around a bit, and found nothing... (don't hold me to this)

I am just thinking out loud here, so someone correct me if my thinking is in error 

So, for example, they get to work, they are both married people, but f..k buddies, colleagues with extra and perhaps even occasional/random, opportunity based, "benefits"; she leaves her purse at her desk (so much for the spy pen), goes into his office after 5 PM when everyone is gone... bam, bam, bam... 10, 15, 20 minutes, whatever... see you tomorrow... they never talk on the phone or text unless it's business (so much for the VAR in the car). 

So, he hires a PI. PI sits in front of the building, watches her go in, sees her even get with the Boss in a car, they go for lunch, friendly people, perhaps they laugh over launch, but no physical contact, that's all, they go back to the office, the PI waits for her to leave the office, no contact again, not even flirting, all serious, business like... so PI says, "sorry buddy, nothing tangeable here. You owe me an additional $$$." Yeah, maybe an emotional affair, they do go out to lunch once a week, or once a month, or never...

So Hubby says, "honey, I hired a PI to track you because I am not sure what is going on with you and your boss. It costs me X grand (or whatever)" She looks at him in disbelief, and says: "You are sick. How can you even imagine something like that? Your jealousy is killing you and this marriage. Get a grip or seek professional help." (or something along those lines)

So, hubby, without being able to prove his "gut" says: '****, I must be jealous." 

At that point, she has him by the balls one way or the other. 

He has no way out except through his own misery of not knowing if he is really that sick or if she is taking him for a ride. And if she is truly an innocent person in all of this, she pulls away from the hubby feeling wrongly accused and thinking that if he really loved her he would never be so distrustful. 

But if she is the guilty party, she knows it's "free coasting" as long as she wants. Who would ever find out and how, unless she and the boss fall for each other and sex turns into a full blown love affair, and/or they become careless? What she is perhaps not realizing is that she is committing a slow spiritual murder of her husband by a hidden affair poisoning of the marriage and his mind/soul.

What is Hubby supposed to do? Hire a PI for 1, 2, 3, 6 months? A year?

And what about the boss' wife? Is she blind as well? 

Perhaps they are not looking for love, perhaps they are looking for "stress relief" and a bit of occasional excitement/forbidden fruit to their monotonous, miserable lives... it becomes second nature to them to a point when she is comfortable enough to let him "bang" her while she is on the phone with her husband, but she is a bit careless with the phone (perhaps she thinks the phone is far away from her mouth) and then all hell breaks loose because the hubby thinks he heard her moan... except, she says: "I have no idea what you are talking about. You are crazy. You are jealous. Stop it!"

Maybe it did all come down like that... maybe he had his window of opportunity 3 years ago and did not take it in his naivety. But now there is no going back to 3 years ago.

Maybe, just maybe, he is contemplating all of this every time she is late from work and going crazy without even realizing what it is doing to him, and then on that day he imagines only parts of the conversation induced by strange noises (cleaning people, her having a back problem as someone posted earlier, etc.) in an attempt to get out of his own "mental" binds.

Obviously, if she is innocent, she would say: "I have no idea what you are talking about." If she is guilty, she is certainly not going to say: "Ooops, I messed up... sorry..." unless she wants to end the marriage. Thus, she says: "I have no idea what you are talking about."

The same answer both ways. And she is the only authority here. 

What I do not understand is if she feels that he is truly so jealous, why isn't she trying to help him? Why a cold shoulder? Unless, of course, she had enough (with or without an affair).

Huuuuh!


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Wow you're making this way too complicated.

Yes ILUBINILWY or whatever means she checked out and is keeping her options open.

Will finish my thoughts later sorry..


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Wow you're making this way too complicated.
> 
> Yes ILUBINILWY or whatever means she checked out and is keeping her options open.
> 
> Will finish my thoughts later sorry..



Hahaha... I think you are right... getting caught in the moment, I suppose.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

naiveonedave said:


> OP - in your last post you stated he never had a chance to confront. I contend he did and she gave him the cheater's script answer. Just claim the BS is stupid.


According to him, he never had a chance, after the conversation, to ask about noises, statements away from the phone... as soon as he brought it up, she did a major 180 on him, so they never actually go to discussing the actual "event."


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Doesn't BS mean Betrayed Spouse?
> 
> WS = Wayward Spouse. BTW (By The Way!)


WHAT??!!

there is more than one meaning? 
:surprise:


i cant remember if it were on this forum or not, but someone started using the words "behaving spouse" for anyone who was being treated unfairly. i guess it stuck with me.
:grin2:


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

wrt said:


> WorkingWife said:
> 
> 
> > Has he ever had any other incidents where he thought he might have had cognitive dissonance?
> ...


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Hmmmmm so I missed something - H is on the forum?

Anyway I was going to say if W has that much contempt hit H to have sex on the phone for the evil thrill of it, it will be pretty easy to verify.

That's because if she's at that stage, she'll be careless and probably repeat or escalate. I would think if H plays it cool and isn't bothered by things, she'll repeat it to get H off kilter again or just to be evil.

A VAR in a purse, pen, lining of a coat, skirt or purse (there are expensive small ones), in the car etc will catch her. 

Also OM is a target. I'd investigate him - find out where he hangs out and see if you can get a VAR in his person or car. Maybe even have someone shoot the sh*t at a bar bragging of conquests - might not be hard to get something out of him.

The point is there are ways to verify and TAM has had many successful stories, so it's not as complex as it seems.

And if W is that callous she'll be easy to catch over time.

Otherwise might be nothing


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

wrt said:


> I don't claim to know the whole story from 3 years ago, but based on what he told me, a drunk boss acting strange at a party in front of his own wife is certainly not a cause for a PI or a divorce, is it now? Isn't that a bit paranoid? What would be there to investigate? We all run into morons every day all over the place, right? One either believes the spouse, or not. Otherwise, we would all go crazy about every little thing our spouses do on a daily basis, right? This is where the gut feeling comes in, right? Well, his gut feeling did tell him that something was not kosher, but she/counselor/whomever convinced him that his gut was wrong.
> 
> I see other posters point: "She took him for a ride 3 years ago, he did nothing about it, and this is just a continuation of an office affair he/the husband had no idea about."
> 
> ...


LOL. Quit being purposely obtuse. For an alleged problem solver and Occam's razor user, you sure as heck create some of the weirdest, most convoluted ways for him to be wrong and her to be right. Heck, YOU need to remove her off that pedestal in your head just like her husband does as well.



> What I do not understand is if she feels that he is truly so jealous, why isn't she trying to help him? Why a cold shoulder? Unless, of course, she had enough (with or without an affair).
> 
> Huuuuh!


She most likely told the truth when she said she loved him, but was not in love with him. There are thousands of posts, with many a woman on TAM, making sure us men understand when the phrase is utter we screwed up and are most likely too late. If that was stated 3 years ago, AFTER COUNSELING, just imagine where she is now.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Affair or no affair, but if the ILYBNILWY speach was given, they "reconciled" after that she plays the jealousy card every time the husband raises a concern...it squelches dialogue in the marriage. When one spouse can effectively kill lines of discussion under threat of divorce thru use of a jealousy card...that's pretty damning.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Affair or no affair, but if the ILYBNILWY speach was given, they "reconciled" after that she plays the jealousy card every time the husband raises a concern...it squelches dialogue in the marriage. When one spouse can effectively kill lines of discussion under threat of divorce thru use of a jealousy card...that's pretty damning.


... and NOT a reconciliation in any meaningful definition of the word.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

https://www.brickhousesecurity.com/search.do?query=Pen+recorder

Also available at amazon.com. 

Since her boss said she was a wild thing to him, he needs to find out what's going on at work. Especially when the stay late.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

So he talked to the suspected lover and found out there was no hanky pancky and all is fine? What am I missing?


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

wrt said:


> I am just thinking out loud here, so someone correct me if my thinking is in error
> 
> So, for example, they get to work, they are both married people, but f..k buddies, colleagues with extra and perhaps even occasional/random, opportunity based, "benefits"; she leaves her purse at her desk (so much for the spy pen), goes into his office after 5 PM when everyone is gone... bam, bam, bam... 10, 15, 20 minutes, whatever... see you tomorrow... they never talk on the phone or text unless it's business (so much for the VAR in the car).
> 
> ...


All true, but you will not know until you try.
Start cheap with a pen var you just might get something.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Since he got in his car and drove to her workplace, only the see both her's and the bosses cars leave at relatively the same time, I wonder who picked the kid up from school. If hearing her banging somebody over the phone ain't enough, looks to me like he could call her close to quitting time and see if she has to work late. If so, he could stealthy slip in the building a few minutes before closing, hide, and get a birds eye view of what's causing her desk to rattle in a rhythmic pattern. 
If she's to the point of calling him and risk him hearing her play with the boyfriend, it won't be long before she ditches him anyway. He's on the bottom of her shyt list. I can't help but wonder why the boyfriend was so quite during their alleged telephone threesome.

At any rate it would have been a good joke for Rodney Dangerfield. "The other evening I was listening to the sounds my wife makes when she is cumming. Only problem is I was talking to her on across town on the phone"


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## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

DNA undies


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Polly wants a poly! Polly wants a poly! Squawk!


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

kenmoore14217 said:


> DNA undies


Wow that's really a thing!

http://thecarlsoncompany.net/infidelity/


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

Hubby, if you are reading this.

This woman had your nads man.
Until you come to realize you can have a life without her, you will remain questioning your own sanity.

Is she really worth your mental health

As of right now, you need to shutup an have her served right on her job.
She's not backing down my friend. 
You don't tell her anything. You get a lawyer, and file.

When she calls, ignore it. When she come home, ignore her, and have a VAR on you.
She's going to go off on you, if you do this, so show her the var, and walk away.

And for good measure, if it turns, polygraph her butt.

This may be the last chance you have to save your sanity,, please take it.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> wrt said:
> 
> 
> > Hubby called me, and then called Gordon. Gordon answered. Hubby asked him about that day and Gordon's recollection, and, to keep it short, Gordon remembered, and told Hubby the same exact same thing Hubby told me: Gordon dropped the papers off, Hubby was on the phone with Wife, and Gordon did not talk to Wife because there was no need for it - he was just dropping the papers off.
> ...


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

wrt said:


> wrt said:
> 
> 
> > Hubby called me, and then called Gordon. Gordon answered. Hubby asked him about that day and Gordon's recollection, and, to keep it short, Gordon remembered, and told Hubby the same exact same thing Hubby told me: Gordon dropped the papers off, Hubby was on the phone with Wife, and Gordon did not talk to Wife because there was no need for it - he was just dropping the papers off.
> ...


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## BrokenLady (Jan 19, 2015)

On average how much do things like hiring a PI, having computer retrieval or doing a poly cost? Just out of interest. 

I live in the USA. Are these things as available in the UK?


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

WorkingWife said:


> wrt said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I'd get some VARS in her car and on her person if possible and hire a P.I.
> ...


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## Dycedarg (Apr 17, 2014)

You should have made a flow chart for this.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

:surprise:

dang


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Drugs involved ?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

So what is he going to do? Read Lonely Husband 42301 s thread

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/member...&page=3#/forumsite/20516/topics/300474?page=1

He was decisive when he found out and was over and done in 3 weeks.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Well time for the owner's wife to know don't you think?
That's rough...
Well time to expose to family and close friends.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

If drugs involved children need to be thought of more than anything


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

If this cat wants to expose his finding to the studs wife as a counterpunch that's great. If he want to do it with the intent to save his pitiful marriage, he's a moron. This girl has utter contempt for him. She lied when she said, "ILYBINILWY". If she told the truth it would have been, "I don't love you d-ckwad."


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Wow

Nothing like a VAR I always say.

He should hack her office voice mail and send the recording as a group broadcast to the entire company...


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Wow
> 
> Nothing like a VAR I always say.
> 
> He should hack her office voice mail and send the recording as a group broadcast to the entire company...


>:FIREdevil:


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

The husband should make sure the evidence is very solid. His wife strikes me like the kind of person that will deny everything in spite of great evidence. 

The husband might be smart to hold off on exposure until he gets great divorce terms. Both his wife and the OM have a lot to lose.

May be he can become a partner in the owner's company :smile2:


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## mrtickle (Jan 29, 2013)

wow....I would have had money on it being a mental issue until the VAR turned up the goods (I have a friend with mild schizophrenia and it manifests itself with hearing stuff that is clearly not happening sometimes).

Rough


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

wrt,

You are a true friend to this man, office affairs can remain hidden for years and even decades, there were two very long term affairs going on a one of my workplaces. The betrayed spouse, with no access to the office, goes insane trying everything to make their marriage work but nothing ever does or feels right.

Good work.

Tamat


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Does he have a plan?

He needs to handle this right plus he may be able to get some sort of compensation depending on the state he lives in.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

One of the recordings sounds very strange... almost like some form of BDSM... 

I am not that type of person, so I can not judge it from experience, but it sounds like chains being moved/rolling on a wheel... really strange.... 

I wonder if it was/is some type of Power/Control/Forced Play involved that turned into an affair. Perhaps there is some type of mental/emotional issue involved, but it may be the Wife's issue. Maybe Stockholm Syndrome? I am only saying this because I just cannot believe that it was a "simple" affair. This woman has such a good standing in the community that she would have way much to lose for a fyck. 

This guy/The Boss owns a pretty large "small" business, he is a majority owner by a small margin held by his own wife (from what the Wife told the Husband). The Wife knew all of that, so she had to know that the Boss would never leave his wife; plus, the Boss is not a young man. If she was just into sex and "regular" cheating, she could have chosen a younger guy. I get a sense that there is more to this than just "an affair."

Here is another interesting piece of info the Husband told me: she worked part time in the spring of this year due to a health issue, and sounded reluctant on a number of occasions when they discussed her return to work full-time. It is possible that H &W were thinking of different reasons for her not returning to work.

I guess, I am still trying to understand and in some way justify the Wife, but if you knew her, I think you would have the same reaction. Please do not criticize me for it (again).

As you can imagine, the Husband is crushed, and I mean, completely.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

TAMAT said:


> The betrayed spouse, with no access to the office, goes insane trying everything to make their marriage work but nothing ever does or feels right.


Those were his exact words.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

He has the info he was looking for. He'd better take a deep breath and figure out how he's going to handle it.

If he's smart he'll think about it a few days rather than blow up. He needs to handle this is a controlled business like manner. Hard to do if you don't calm down and think for awhile.

Hopefully he won't beg and plead for her to stop and rugsweep it.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

Marc878 said:


> Does he have a plan?
> 
> He needs to handle this right plus he may be able to get some sort of compensation depending on the state he lives in.


What do you mean by that?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

wrt said:


> What do you mean by that?


There are alienation of affection laws depending on the state he lives in. 

He's her boss and maybe liable.

If he's smart he'll get to a good attourney and see what his options are.

Also if it's a fault state adultery means no alimony.


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

Graywolf2 said:


> The husband should make sure the evidence is very solid.


Oh, it is solid!



Graywolf2 said:


> His wife strikes me like the kind of person that will deny everything in spite of great evidence.


The Husband did confront her with some small pieces of info (he said did not play the recordings for her and does not intend to do it (hmm, we'll see about that)), and she is still denying everything. I get a sense that she is stuck big time.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Plus laws vary in use of a VAR. 

Tell him to keep cool and do some research. He can always expose and blow them up later.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

He needs to make copies and put them in a secure place


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Was the var in her car? Sounds like he was able to get one in her purse?


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

wrt said:


> One of the recordings sounds very strange... almost like some form of BDSM...
> 
> I am not that type of person, so I can not judge it from experience, but it sounds like chains being moved/rolling on a wheel... really strange....
> 
> ...


Stop looking for an explanation of "why" she is doing this (unless your friend absolutely needs to know; it's his WW). I don't think it's worth analyzing the "why" of another person's sexual appetites anymore than it is worth analyzing "why" a person doesn't like a particular food. Maybe the noise is just some background noise. Maybe she's into kink. Trust me, some of the really "good-girl" types are wild between the sheets. Unless you have actual evidence of her being forced, assume consent. 

Your friend (the H) likely needs a good support group, be there for him. What's he planning to do now? Is he going to continue surveillance? File D?


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

His wife is making a fool out of him. (sorry)

She was geting her rocks of while talking with her husband over the phone and at the same time performing some sexual acts for OM.

Tell your friend to open his eyes and run from this monstrum. I can bet my life he can find a better woman then his curent "wife".


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Be smart said:


> His wife is making a fool out of him. (sorry)
> 
> She was geting her rocks of while talking with her husband over the phone and at the same time performing some sexual acts for OM.


If that ain't clear evidence that she thinks her husband is a clown that she enjoys toying with I don't know what is. She apparently calls her old man and lets him hear the boss f-cking her. Any man so friggin needy and weak to feel they have to stay with a spouse like that and panhandle for her attention is beyond hope. He'll just have to go down as road kill.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

wrt said:


> Oh, it is solid!
> 
> The Husband did confront her with some small pieces of info (he said did not play the recordings for her and does not intend to do it (hmm, we'll see about that)), and she is still denying everything. I get a sense that she is stuck big time.


Might be time to back off and hire a PI in order to nail down some solid, court-admissible evidence that doesn't violate federal or state wiretapping/privacy laws. If, however, he wants to bluff a legitimate confession out of her...

"Look, we both know the truth, and I don't need to hear you admit to it to know that it's the truth.

If, however, you have any hope of staying in our marriage, you WILL admit to what we both know is an affair w/ your <OM's name>, IN ADDITION TO answering _every single question_ that I may have."

...with a VAR running the entire time.

And that's assuming, of course, that his is a one-party consent state.

Has he exposed the affair to OM's wife yet?

Has he started speaking w/ lawyers yet? If not, he should.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

wrt said:


> This woman has such a good standing in the community that she would have way much to lose for a fyck.


Don't be naive WRT. Back in the day, I had a client that was a Senator's wife and an assistant superintendent of a local school district. I'd give odds this ain't this old girls first rodeo. She can handle a phone and the bosses equipment while working a Rubik's Cube.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Id tee her up in my own time. After I figured out all the ins and outs financially. Get the divorce papers ready and then.... 

Invite a houseful over and say lets listen to some new music I got for this special occasion. The list would be all the ones she told how crazy I was.

Play it loud and clear. Just say this is what my wife foes st work!!!!!!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It's amazing how sadly reliable the cheater's script is.

I was just reading through this and was about to post my own take that she is cheating and gaslighting when I came to today's update.

The word 'paranoid' is always a red flag for me. It more often than not means, 'Your suspicions are correct, but I really, really need to shut you down so you don't stop my cake-eating.' Honestly, when your WS's A is more important to her than her BH's sanity, then it's time to move on.

At this point, I would advise your friend not to reveal his sources. He should just keep repeating, 'I know you are lying.'


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

BrokenLady said:


> On average how much do things like hiring a PI, having computer retrieval or doing a poly cost? Just out of interest.
> 
> I live in the USA. Are these things as available in the UK?


Yes. Polygraph operators and PIs are available in the UK.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

mrtickle said:


> wow....I would have had money on it being a mental issue until the VAR turned up the goods (I have a friend with mild schizophrenia and it manifests itself with hearing stuff that is clearly not happening sometimes).
> 
> Rough


I had two friends who would hear or see stuff that wasn't there. One smoked too much weed the other was a paranoid schizophrenic with psychotic tendencies. 

But this is so sad.

Poor husband poor children. Poor OM's wife and children.

And good evening Mr Tickle!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I'm not getting the part where she was doing the big boss but her other boss/coworker walked in and gave her some papers while she was f*cking the big boss.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> I'm not getting the part where she was doing the big boss but her other boss/coworker walked in and gave her some papers while she was f*cking the big boss.


Yeah me neither.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Chaparral said:


> I'm not getting the part where she was doing the big boss but her other boss/coworker walked in and gave her some papers while she was f*cking the big boss.


Where does it say that?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Where does it say that?


From the first post and then the update.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Chaparral said:


> From the first post and then the update.


But the "papers" were brought to the house where the husband was.....on the phone with his wife who was apparently banging the owner of the company.....am I forgetting a detail?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I think you need to retread that. She asked him if he wanted to talk to him on the phone she was using. He said no.


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> I think you need to retread that. She asked him if he wanted to talk to him on the phone she was using. He said no.


Nope. Person A in the first post is the wife, getting worked over while at work while on the phone with her husband. Person B is the husband, at home, when Gordon arrives. Husband asks person A (wife) if she wants to talk to Gordon, she says no just have him leave the paperwork.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Graywolf2 said:


> The husband should make sure the evidence is very solid. His wife strikes me like the kind of person that will deny everything in spite of great evidence.
> 
> The husband might be smart to hold off on exposure until he gets great divorce terms. Both his wife and the OM have a lot to lose.
> 
> May be he can become a partner in the owner's company :smile2:


I agree. H, make copies of the recording, play it for her, and tell her if she doesn't walk away from the marriage and kids NOW, that recording will be played for a LOT of people.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

wrt said:


> One of the recordings sounds very strange... almost like some form of BDSM...
> 
> I am not that type of person, so I can not judge it from experience, but it sounds like chains being moved/rolling on a wheel... really strange....
> 
> ...


It is funny the scenarios people create, men especially, to make a woman virginal and perfect. Yes, even the "she was coerced/forced" to have sex with her now affair partner. It has happened that way, but please do not feed her a line to run with in her excuse making. More often than not, when they are forced to self report suddenly the truth comes out.

No, I wouldn't have the same reaction unless you had video. The initial conversation has weird sounds, clicking, echoing and slamming sounds. Why wouldn't there be weird sounds at an office? I've gone from part to full time, I was reluctant to go back as well. If you feed her that excuse, make sure the husband convinces the wife to report this to the authorities. If she was or is being raped this guy needs to be stopped. 

Sorry, reading here has made me jaded. I've read two legit coercion/rape stories with actual sexual harassment charges filed. All of the rest, probably about 15, were excuses that folded under pressure to charge and guilt for lying about the affair partner.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Sorry, reading here has made me jaded. I've read two legit coercion/rape stories with actual sexual harassment charges filed.


98.6% of the time the women involved sees the big boss and the powerful alpha, silver back gorilla and just wants to f-ck him. When it goes south on them, they scream sexual harassment. What that the say about power being an aphrodisiac. (BTW, I made up the 98.6% but ya'll know what I mean)


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Don't be naive WRT. Back in the day, I had a client that was a Senator's wife and an assistant superintendent of a local school district. I'd give odds this ain't this old girls first rodeo. She can handle a phone and the bosses equipment while working a Rubik's Cube.


Found out one of the neighborhood girls I grew up with was an escort, in multiple states, advertising through online sex ads. Huge story all over the local news. She has kids, has a Master's degree, was married to a professional sports figure, had GREAT standing in the community and was a Vice principal.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> ThePheonix said:
> 
> 
> > Don't be naive WRT. Back in the day, I had a client that was a Senator's wife and an assistant superintendent of a local school district. I'd give odds this ain't this old girls first rodeo. She can handle a phone and the bosses equipment while working a Rubik's Cube.
> ...


Do you have her email? Uhhhhh it's for s friend


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## wrt (Nov 14, 2015)

Well, WWife, without a word to the Husband, moved to her sister's and took the teenager with her. 
It appears that she was gaslighting the Husband for 4-5 years, and there is a strong possibility that the Boss at work was/has not been/is not the only AP. Wow! 

ME REALLY NAIVE!


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

:surprise:

and the sh*t hits the fan.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Marc878 said:


> Was the var in her car? Sounds like he was able to get one in her purse?


Yeah, I was worried about that too. A VAR in the purse is difficult to believe. Women not only look into their purses, they often change which one they are wearing.

If the VAR was in the car, how does one get the sound of chains being moved?

There are still some major missing pieces to this strange story.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

He better get a lawyer now and work on 50/50 custody.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

W, tell him she has had plan for this for a long time if he finally found out, so she knows what the next moves are.

My advice,, forget that legal crap about VAR. This slag has had plenty of time to put together a game plan, so his only advantage is that recording.

Blackmail,,, who says ???
Does she cares about her rep?? Bet she does. Why else set the stage all these years telling everyone he's crazy.
She is the WORST kind of skank, ruin him and eat her cake.

AND, for those, well nm that, SHOW us on here where a judge locked up someone, or a DA, who caught their skank illegally.

W, be there there for him, and lead him to mental health man.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

OldWolf57 said:


> W, tell him she has had plan for this for a long time if he finally found out, so she knows what the next moves are.
> 
> My advice,, forget that legal crap about VAR. This slag has had plenty of time to put together a game plan, so his only advantage is that recording.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

W, reading she called him, and reading what he said he heard, I didn't need Gordon.
She clicked to me. These are the kind of ppl I have to do a lil biz with, so I KNOW them.
She would have gone on for years more, until it stop being fun for her to degrade and abuse him.

Believe me, this slime has a plan.

BUT, he has that recording,, That's money in the mental, and negotiation bank baby !!
She don't want to be seen as the slime she is. She went to too much trouble making people think he was crazy for that.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

She never counted on us on TAM !!


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

wrt said:


> It appears that she was gaslighting the Husband for 4-5 years, and there is a strong possibility that the Boss at work was/has not been/is not the only AP. Wow!
> 
> ME REALLY NAIVE!


What the old saying about if she had as many sticking out of her as she had stuck in her she'd look like a porcupine. Just be glad you didn't take my bet that this wasn't her first rodeo. 
I known a few women who would talk on the phone to their husbands while laying in bed with another man. This girl was talking to her old man while she was doing the boss. No doubt in my mine she enjoys the intrigue and making her old man look like a clown. She's a pro.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> What the old saying about if she had as many sticking out of her as she had stuck in her she'd look like a porcupine. Just be glad you didn't take my bet that this wasn't her first rodeo.
> I known a few women who would talk on the phone to their husbands while laying in bed with another man. This girl was talking to her old man while she was doing the boss. She's a pro.


Riding the old c0ck carousel no doubt.


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