# Is pleasing your husband important to you?



## jld

Or not at all? Somewhere in the middle?

I do not think I could happily be with a man I did not feel I could please. I would feel insecure and unsafe if he were often angry or even annoyed with me.

I am sure I would have left a man like that. I would have felt like a failure staying. I think I would have felt that by leaving, it would have freed both of us up to find more compatible partners. Win/Win or No Deal.

Are you sensitive this way, too? Or would this not bother you at all? 

Is it a question of confidence? Or simply a practical consideration in mate selection/marriage sustainability?


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## Faithful Wife

Can you define more what you mean by "pleasing" your man...and what do you mean about "if you couldn't please him". Please him in what ways, specifically do you mean?


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## jld

Faithful Wife said:


> Can you define more what you mean by "pleasing" your man...and what do you mean about "if you couldn't please him". Please him in what ways, specifically do you mean?


Thanks for asking, FW. Helps me think it through. 

To me, it means knowing he is happy with me, likes the person I am, not too critical, satisfied with the way I do things.

If he were often upset, too demanding, always stressing me out with wanting more than I felt I could reasonably provide, I would just give up.

I think I just don't believe in trying too hard in relationships. I think if the relationship feels too stressful, it probably is just not meant to be. I suppose that could be considered lazy, but I think it is efficient.

You are a relationship coach. Does that approach seem reasonable to you?


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## CuddleBug

In my situation, Mrs.CuddleBug gets very upset if she can't please me, getting me to orgasm. This is very bad if that actually happens, which it has a few times over our marriage. It happened because of stress, life, work and we didn't have sex in quite the while. Then I couldn't orgasm, she gets upset and tries even harder, resulting in no orgasm for sure. Doesn't matter if its a BJ or PIV. Since my wife's love language is Acts of Service rating 12, she loves to do just that in the bedroom as well. So for Mrs.CuddleBug, her getting me to orgasm is very important to her. Hope that helps.


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## jld

Yeah, I am sure that would make a wife feel bad, Cuddlebug. We have not experienced ED, but if we did, I would be concerned. I am sure I would read all about it. It would still be on him to take responsibility for it, but I would want to help if I could.


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## EleGirl

Well.. when I was married this was very important to me. 

Even before ever reading "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters", that was pretty much how I considered was the right way to be in marriage. The books just helped clarify some things.

In marriage, if each person makes it their goal to make sure that the other has what the need and most of what they want.. it should be a happy marriage.

The problem is that both spouses have to believe this.. otherwise it ends up with one taking advantage of the other.


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## jld

I think you're right, Ele. I think it matters to my husband to please me, too. He is just not as overt about it.


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## badsanta

My wife said to me once that she sometimes feels rejected because I always seem to ask for more, making her feel as though she will never be enough.

From the man's point of view, it is a wonderful feeling to strongly desire your wife to the point that you are wanting to be with her more and pursuing her.

P.S. Men also like what is sometimes hard to get. So less can be more.


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## Faithful Wife

jld said:


> Thanks for asking, FW. Helps me think it through.
> 
> To me, it means knowing he is happy with me, likes the person I am, not too critical, satisfied with the way I do things.
> 
> If he were often upset, too demanding, always stressing me out with wanting more than I felt I could reasonably provide, I would just give up.
> 
> I think I just don't believe in trying too hard in relationships. I think if the relationship feels too stressful, it probably is just not meant to be. I suppose that could be considered lazy, but I think it is efficient.
> 
> You are a relationship coach. Does that approach seem reasonable to you?


I hope you see in Cuddle's answer the reason why the word pleasing could mean lots of things. I knew you didn't mean it sexually, but wasn't sure what you did mean. I think I get what you are sayiing now. At first I did think you meant "please" them with behaviors though...like home cooked meals or doing things that you know he likes.

I'm actually a dating coach...(daters have different coaching needs than people in relationships). But I'll still offer my opinion about what you are saying. IMO, some relationships are just volatile, for a variety of reasons, and it doesn't mean they aren't happy relationships. Some relationships have a lot of sparks flying but it isn't necessarily a bad thing. 

I do agree that if your spouse just isn't into you and nothing you do will ever make them happy, it may be best to end the relationship (or separate). I certainly wouldn't want to be with someone who I simply couldn't make happy because he just didn't like me or some parts of me. But on the other hand, there might be a lot of work to do in a relationship, and it might be hard work but very rewarding and healing work. 

So when you say "it shouldn't be so much work", I agree but only in the way that you can't "work" someone into being into you and liking who you are.


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## Rowan

I could not please my ex-husband. And I am the type of person who needs to feel as if my partner is happy with me. He maintained a low level of seething anger and resentment much of the time throughout our marriage. He was the sort of person who claimed to not want anything, but actually expected a constantly shifting cloud of everything. It was, indeed, a highly stressful, anxiety inducing, self-esteem destroying, way to live.


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## SimplyAmorous

In the pleasing aspect, its important for me to feel that my efforts, my willingness to give to my husband ...pleasing him....(whether that be giving of my time, enthusiasm to make love, listening when he has a bad day...helping him when he could use a hand, going places he wants, making his favorite meals, if he suggests something, etc)....it's important that it has some EFFECT on him.. that my being in his life causes his world to be little brighter....running smoother... that he'll want to come home after work, and not the bar (for instance)..... . 

If I felt my giving to a man had little to no effect on his happiness , over all Joy with life.....that he could take it or leave it.. like "blaaaaah"....or worse, if it was owed..."a woman has her place" sort of thing... not appreciated/ just expected.....something in me would DIE.. I would not be fulfilled in such a relationship...

I very much enjoy the giving , pleasing...as I have learned in these last so many yrs....just how much it does mean to him...where before I was taking some things for granted.... it's opened up my husband to places I missed.. and brought us closer.

Always thought provoking questions JDL.. :smthumbup: ...today is his B-day !


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## EleGirl

Rowan said:


> I could not please my ex-husband. And I am the type of person who needs to feel as if my partner is happy with me. He maintained a low level of seething anger and resentment much of the time throughout our marriage. He was the sort of person who claimed to not want anything, but actually expected a constantly shifting cloud of everything. It was, indeed, a highly stressful, anxiety inducing, self-esteem destroying, way to live.


This sounds like my ex (son's father). It's exhausting since you are always walking on eggshells trying to figure out how their needs are changing.

I think that the bottom line is that a person who is like this will not let affection and care from their spouse in. The constant changing needs and wants are a way to put up a wall that cannot be penetrated.


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## jld

Happy Birthday, Mr. SA!


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## jld

Rowan and Ele, that is what I was thinking of. Basically, who you are was not enough. Your behaviors were not going to be enough, either.

It was a losing battle. So glad you cut your losses. That much faster to finding someone you can please. Or be alone, because you know exactly how to please yourself.


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## jld

I feel like who I am is enough for Dug. Delights him, actually. 

If I had to try to earn his love, work like crazy to win his approval, I think I would walk away. Again, maybe I am just lazy. But I think the most sustainable relationships are the ones where the two people just fit naturally together, like puzzle pieces.

I suppose I sound like I am defeating the purpose of TAM.


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## Revamped

Yes.

I want to see my husband happy. 

If I can relieve "general stress" from his life just by a simple act, I'll do that for him. Because I love him.


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## FrenchFry

Hmm, I'm in the middle of both extremes here.

Left to my own devices, I have quite a few "natural" behaviors that get on my husbands nerves. He has a few that get on mine as well--pretty even in that regard.

But there is a core of respect and love and commonality that overrides the annoying parts and makes us work on becoming less annoying to each other. With that, I have no problem doing work to keep him happy as long as he continues to do the same.

So I know the things that make him happy. As long as my attempts to do so get noticed and acknowledged, it's not work, it's a pleasure. The minute that my efforts get taken for granted, it's no longer important for me to try to please my husband.


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## john117

I'm having a bit of trouble with the "not so critical" part. 

I have done many monumentally dumb things in life but when told so I generally listen and take care of them. Even small things. Very small things. Life is all about kaizen.

Having said this I would appreciate a woman who actually takes good tactful criticism and learns, and is also willing to do the same with me.

I'm not Mr. Perfect but life is all about improvement so...


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## jld

I thought to you, life was all about equality, John.


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## john117

It is. But the whole point is that without criticism - the good kind - we don't improve. My interns or junior team mates at work are floored when I do Mea Culpas and bring donuts the next day when I screw up. 

We can serenade each other at home that we are the best spouses or what not or we can be more upfront with each other.


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## jld

I hear you. I prefer upfront, too.


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## SunnyT

jld said:


> Rowan and Ele, that is what I was thinking of. Basically, who you are was not enough. Your behaviors were not going to be enough, either.
> 
> It was a losing battle. So glad you cut your losses. That much faster to finding someone you can please. Or be alone, because you know exactly how to please yourself.


BTDT also.... with the exH. And I had a period of time where I couldn't figure it out. The old, "no matter what I do..." But as I detached, grew up, started figuring ME out (not necessarily in that order).... I figured out that this is really HIS issue. Wasn't about me at all. 

Not only did that make the whole divorce a LOT easier, it makes you really appreciate a guy who appreciates you!


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## heartsbeating

I guess I do want to please my husband - but not at the expense of self. Maybe it's more that I appreciate being appreciated. I don't need his approval but we share in admiration and respect and with that comes appreciation. 

Sure, we can get on each others last nerve at times but that doesn't mean the deep admiration isn't still there. I think there's got to be room for calling each other out and being prepared to listen. That's how we grow. We also encourage one another beyond our own perceived limitations at times too. Another way to grow. I also think there's room for needs to change and it's important to express what those needs/changes are to one another. 

On a side-note, the other day he thanked me for organizing all the gifts for friends and relatives. He said if it wasn't for me, none of this would get done and he really appreciated it. With fairly big life changes occurring and the stress that we're sharing with that, I didn't think gifts was a big deal at all, but that acknowledgement was surprisingly good to hear.


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## sparkyjim

in the book "Sex, men and God" the author said that the three words a woman loves to hear from her man are

You
Satisfy
Me...


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## that.girl

SimplyAmorous said:


> If I felt my giving to a man had little to no effect on his happiness , over all Joy with life.....that he could take it or leave it.. like "blaaaaah"....or worse, if it was owed..."a woman has her place" sort of thing... not appreciated/ just expected.....something in me would DIE.. I would not be fulfilled in such a relationship...


I can identify with this. I enjoyed doing little things to make my husband happy. But when he acted like he expected all those little favors, it kind of sucked the joy out of the act for me. 

I enjoyed pleasing my husband, and actually seeing that he was pleased!


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## Zouz

that.girl said:


> I can identify with this. I enjoyed doing little things to make my husband happy. But when he acted like he expected all those little favors, it kind of sucked the joy out of the act for me.
> 
> I enjoyed pleasing my husband, and actually seeing that he was pleased!




Simplyamourous and you are prototypes of women who could easily be satisfied by their hub ; what are you doing on TAM anyway !?


I mean you are normal girls ; you might not be perfects but normal thinking ladies; others might be givers too ; but the givology is obvious on you.


When you live with a person with a lot of complexity in thinking ; you would get different answers from them .


Some they don't believe in giving ; because for some reason life deceived them and they are not coached to give : what if spouse doesn't give back ....

my wife has never satisfied me ;because even when she did great intimacy vanilla ;she was only satisfying actually herself ....

Even when she gives ... she is sure that she will be rewarded ...

I was a giver for 17 years ; and now ; I still give and give and give , but with only one difference :

I never expect anymore that she will give anything without a price ...

realistic


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## Justus3

Yes pleasing my husband is very important to me. By pleasing my husband, it pleases me. I love the satisfaction I get from knowing that my husband feels happy & loved. It truly is the little things in life that make us happy  But I too wouldn't want the feeling that he is always expecting it, I believe that it would take all the fun out of it. If the feeling is mutual it makes for an overall happy marriage. As my husband often says "a happy wife is a happy life". It goes the same way for a happy hubby too!!!


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## Justus3

Revamped said:


> Yes.
> 
> I want to see my husband happy.
> 
> If I can relieve "general stress" from his life just by a simple act, I'll do that for him. Because I love him.


:iagree: totally


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## SimplyAmorous

that.girl said:


> I can identify with this. I enjoyed doing little things to make my husband happy. * But when he acted like he expected all those little favors, it kind of sucked the joy out of the act for me. *
> 
> I enjoyed pleasing my husband, and actually seeing that he was pleased!


I think it's a part of the human condition to start to take things for granted, if we aren't mindful how this can hurt our partner.... maybe getting too caught up in work, stress, we become short with each other, feeling our plates are too full... kids.. 

I know for me, when I hear a song like  Everything I Own...those words can suddenly bring it all home....that someday this person may not be there anymore.. so appreciate them today....

how important it is to care for each other, to feel we always have a safe place to land.. and we are a part of this, helping each other through all the seasons of our journey..



> *Zouz said:* *Simplyamourous and you are prototypes of women who could easily be satisfied by their hub ; what are you doing on TAM anyway *!?


 Answer... habitual forum addiction..(I have my flaws)... I was a little frustrated when I landed here...we worked through that...always a passion for writing...so this isn't helping me leave.. but  for feeling I am "normal" zouz !


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## Catherine602

I would feel like a bad, lazy and ungrateful person if I did not invest in pleasing him. Basically, everyone I interact with deserves to be treated with resect and regard. That's part of being a good citizen of the universe. Pleasing someone who I love and who treats me well, is a given. I have to say it's not unconditional. 

I would not please anyone who was abusive or treated me with contempt or lack of appreciation. I believe that partners should give as much as they get in general big picture terms. It's easy to get into an unbalanced relationship where one person gives too much and the other takes. One or both may not realize it.


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## Anonymous07

john117 said:


> I'm having a bit of trouble with the "not so critical" part.


I think there is criticism and then there is constructive criticism.

Our lives are ever changing, as life throws us curve balls and new adventures come along(new job, kids, death of a loved one, moving to a new place, etc.), so it's important to be able to adapt and move forward. The marital relationship can't stay the same forever as your life circumstances change. I don't mind if my husband has something to say to me in regards to constructive criticism, as I'm not perfect and we can always evolve to be the best version of ourselves. I am upfront about what I want/need and expect my husband to be the same way. I know there are areas where I can improve, instead of letting myself get stuck in rut, so I don't mind having him say something. I wouldn't change everything about myself or push myself to crazy limits, but I do enjoy putting in some effort to make my marriage better so long as it's mutual(I'm not taken for granted). My husband puts in some effort/work to make me happy and I do the same for him. It doesn't feel so much like "work" when you're both happy.


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## heartsbeating

SimplyAmorous said:


> how important it is to care for each other, to feel we always have a safe place to land.. and we are a part of this, helping each other through all the seasons of our journey..


Beautifully said.


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## heartsbeating

Catherine602 said:


> I would feel like a bad, lazy and ungrateful person is I did not invest in pleasing him. Basically, everyone, I interact with deserves to be treated with resect and regard. That's part of being a good citizen of the universe. Pleasing someone who I love and who treats me well, is a given. I have to say it's not unconditional.
> 
> I would not please anyone who was abusive or treated me with contempt or lack of appreciation. I believe that partners should give as much as they get in general big picture terms. It's easy to get into an unbalanced relationship where one person gives too much and the other takes. One or both may not realize it.


This is how I feel too... I was considering before the perspective of 'pleasing' my husband in way of seeking his approval which could slip to losing a sense of self, based on what jld wrote previously about how one might feel if unliked by a husband - no I wouldn't 'please' to be with someone who isn't into me. 

I think we can dig each other and still learn and grow. We're a mirror to each other in many ways. Helping and being supportive as a way of 'pleasing' my husband, and being there for one another though? Yep, I'm all in. And so is he. The balance is important, you're spot on.


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## Blonde

Interesting thread jld.  Proves my point about Gen 3:16.


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## john117

I thought that Gen 3:16.01 mentioned epidurals somewhere :rofl:

No mention of pleasing hubby tho.


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## Mr The Other

Generally, I think the feminism threads are great, as they keep the worst men tied up in them like fly paper and avoid them being on other threads. 

However, I think my ex-wife suffered from feeling that doing something to please me would equal her being oppressed. As a stay at home wife when I worked long hours, she observed one evening that if she did housework, I was really please. When she did nothing and left the housework to me, I was down. However, she could not think what to do about that. As in, she could not conclude that she could do some housework and thus make me happier. It would have been worth it.

I am not blaming feminism, it was a feeling of victimhood. However, such things make a huge difference to a reasonably decent person.


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## jld

Because women were oppressed for so long, and really did not feel powerful, many are afraid of losing their power still today. But we have perhaps become a bit paranoid about it.


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## Thundarr

jld said:


> Or not at all? Somewhere in the middle?
> 
> I do not think I could happily be with a man I did not feel I could please. I would feel insecure and unsafe if he were often angry or even annoyed with me.
> 
> I am sure I would have left a man like that. I would have felt like a failure staying. I think I would have felt that by leaving, it would have freed both of us up to find more compatible partners. Win/Win or No Deal.
> 
> Are you sensitive this way, too? Or would this not bother you at all?
> 
> Is it a question of confidence? Or simply a practical consideration in mate selection/marriage sustainability?


Your title is asking about wanting to please your spouse but your opening comment is about wanting to be appreciated and not wanting to not be taken for granted when you do Make an effort to please your partner. My wife and I just had this discussion today. She said she loves and appreciates me but never knows how to show it. Well that's nuts because she's shown it for 18 years by being with me and being loyal.

To your thread title; I think spouses generally want to please their SO and they want their So to be happy and appreciative about it.


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## john117

jld said:


> Because women were oppressed for so long, and really did not feel powerful, many are afraid of losing their power still today. But we have perhaps become a bit paranoid about it.



And men have responded by becoming metrosexuals. This won't end well for either gender.


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## jld

Yes, men really are not what they used to be.


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## heartsbeating

jld said:


> Because women were oppressed for so long, and really did not feel powerful, many are afraid of losing their power still today. But we have perhaps become a bit paranoid about it.


jld, I'm curious, what was the intent of this thread?


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## notmyrealname4

jld,

You ask simple questions; but in a provocative style. I mean that as a compliment.

Pleasing my husband is not particularly important to me anymore. But only in the sense that not being able to do a gymnastics routine on the balance beam isn't important to me either. I don't seem to have the natural abilities to do it. So, it just doesn't appeal to me much anymore.

But, is it important to hold up my end of the bargain, and be as supportive, loyal and contributing as I can be? Yes. For my own reasons.

When you give and contribute because of your own values and beliefs; it's always easy. Or _easier_.


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## that.girl

Mr The Other said:


> Generally, I think the feminism threads are great, as they keep the worst men tied up in them like fly paper and avoid them being on other threads.



:rofl:

I hadn't thought about it like that!


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## SimplyAmorous

Mr The Other said:


> *However, I think my ex-wife suffered from feeling that doing something to please me would equal her being oppressed.* As a stay at home wife when I worked long hours, she observed one evening that if she did housework, I was really please. When she did nothing and left the housework to me, I was down. However, she could not think what to do about that. As in, she could not conclude that she could do some housework and thus make me happier. It would have been worth it.
> 
> I am not blaming feminism, it was a feeling of victimhood. However, such things make a huge difference to a reasonably decent person.


Feeling oppressed for Pleasing... that's new...I have never felt something like this, or such a thought entering in.. Sometimes you might feel "Obligated" to do things.. but oppressed.. she didn't say this I take it... just something you felt ...maybe?

If someone treats us good, doing the best they can, if we feel this from their end... I wouldn't think this would enter in...

If I didn't get all my stuff done at home when he was at work.. I would forthcomingly tell my Husband I was "a lazy bum all day"...(seriously)... and really he never cared.. we all have our days.. I'd still have something to eat and be on the ball the next day getting everything done.. the bad thing about this with me is.. I get grouchy if I let things pile up.. I need to stay on top of it...

I'd be disappointed in myself because I know I am capable...it's a let down on myself... 

I didn't do anything for my Husband on his B-day, we had a few others things going on.. I let him know I felt bad ...I could have done something -really all he cares about is...well you know... but I told him I need to make that up to him...I know he doesn't expect anything here..he's satisfied...but still I should have done more..put a little more effort into *HIS day*.



intheory said:


> jld,
> 
> You ask simple questions; but in a provocative style. I mean that as a compliment.


:iagree:


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## Mr The Other

SimplyAmorous said:


> Feeling oppressed for Pleasing... that's new...I have never felt something like this, or such a thought entering in.. Sometimes you might feel "Obligated" to do things.. but oppressed.. she didn't say this I take it... just something you felt ...maybe?
> 
> ...


Different people have different standards. I met a girl who gave me oral pleasure and afterwards I commented it had been the first time in years (my wife had I considered it a bit rapey). This girl seemed to pretty much neglecting me in that way as amounting to abuse!


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## jld

Thanks, intheory. 

I like to explore ideas. I am not afraid of ideas. I like to reexamine my thoughts, to see if they are still serving me, propelling me in the direction I want to go. The feedback I get here helps me reexamine those thoughts.

You are such a sweetheart, intheory. TAM is really lucky to have you here.


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## Deejo

This just strikes me as the kind of question that nobody is going to say, 'No' to.

Despite the fact that they are unaware of, or don't actually have an interest in pleasing their spouse, or meeting their needs. They may think they they are ... or not knowing, presume things are hunky dory.

But I absolutely agree with you. If keeping the relationship sustainable means I have to work at pleasing you, and that is not reciprocated, or worse ... criticized, then you get your walking papers.

There was distinctly a point in my history and metality, where I believed 100% that it was my job to take care of my partner.

I don't believe it 100% any longer. 

Let's call it 80%. And if my partner doesn't share that belief, I'm not going to be partnered with them for very long.


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## jld

I am a big believer in win/win or no deal. If I have to work too hard/change too much . . . To me, it probably was not meant to be.

And I realize I may just be selfish and lazy. But there is a certain efficiency in that . . .

Deejo, I think a woman may stop caring about pleasing her husband if she feels very hurt by him. Otherwise, I think it is a pretty natural state for many women, though not all, with their husbands.


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## Deejo

jld said:


> I am a big believer in win/win or no deal. If I have to work too hard/change too much . . . To me, it probably was not meant to be.
> 
> And I realize I may just be selfish and lazy. But there is a certain efficiency in that . . .
> 
> Deejo, I think a woman may stop caring about pleasing her husband if she feels very hurt by him. Otherwise, I think it is a pretty natural state for many women, though not all, with their husbands.


No doubt the same can be said of both genders. I can tell you unequivocally, that a man will stop caring about pleasing his wife if he feels consistently hurt and disrespected by her. 

I have no interest in being in a relationship with someone who isn't willing to put in some effort, or better yet make it look effortless. 

I think some people are happy to label indifference as complacence or satisfaction. "If he or she isn't complaining then they must be happy ..."

Oh and I wholeheartedly agree with your win/win perspective.


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## SimplyAmorous

Mr The Other said:


> Different people have different standards. I met a girl who gave me oral pleasure and afterwards I commented it had been the first time in years (my wife had I considered it a bit rapey). This girl seemed to pretty much neglecting me in that way as amounting to abuse!


Not sure I follow what you are saying... the girl who GAVE you oral found the fact you haven't had it in years to be near "abuse" to a man.. but your wife would have found that to be "rapey" that this woman wanted to give you oral (I take it this was all before you married !).... or your wife is now your Ex or something.. *or I probably misread your whole comment??!*

To my regret...and shame... I was a neglectful wife *in this area* for many years...my head elsewhere....it wasn't something I was tuned into & he was not one to push...or even ask me to go there! So I was rather clueless, needed a brick.







... but Now.. I love it and can't imagine not going there... 

My H was like DEEJO used to be...that 100% pleaser.. even if he wasn't getting as much back.. He would say I gave "enough" back (it was just in sex I missed it -too focused on trying to conceive -infertility can be hard on a couple - timing sex...the roller coaster ride of the wife's emotions -yrs passing with no pregnancy)..

We are both to blame here for very different reasons ......but I look back and thank him for his perseverance & patience *with me* during that time...it wasn't my best yrs.... but at the same time...I could also smack him for being so passive about his own needs /desires ..it shouldn't have been.. I do believe I would have cared -had he let me in.


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## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *I am a big believer in win/win or no deal. If I have to work too hard/change too much . . . To me, it probably was not meant to be.*


 I feel like you do as well JLD.... such a variety of people in the world... too often this happens though...










I'm a firm believer we need to be accepted for who we are (the good, the bad, the ugly)... for the sake of compatibility & harmony... even as friends...If someone secretly wants to change some fundamental part of us (maybe a belief system or how much we care about _____- even if it's not their cup of java







).....Yet to accept us as we are.. it's a matter of *respect* ...so I feel.. that's needed...

Or it's just not going to work... we'll never feel we are "enough".... we need that understanding that "we're loved" despite our differences...and those differences DO need opened up.. not ignored.. as they will come back to bite down the road when the dopamine chemicals settle down..

..But it sure helps if we exude our Best selves... willing & ready to be a responsible partner giving it the best we have...


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## richardsharpe

Good evening all
I think that if you love someone you enjoy making them happy - even if doing that takes a substantial effort. If they love you they will do the same - and you will both be happy.

I think *wanting* to please someone is what is most important, if for some reason you aren't very good at it, the desire to do so will encourage you to get better.


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## Anonymous07

Mr The Other said:


> Generally, I think the feminism threads are great, as they keep the worst men tied up in them like fly paper and avoid them being on other threads.
> 
> However, I think my ex-wife suffered from feeling that doing something to please me would equal her being oppressed. As a stay at home wife when I worked long hours, she observed one evening that if she did housework, I was really please. When she did nothing and left the housework to me, I was down. However, she could not think what to do about that. As in, she could not conclude that she could do some housework and thus make me happier. It would have been worth it.
> 
> I am not blaming feminism, it was a feeling of victimhood. However, such things make a huge difference to a reasonably decent person.


It could be that she felt unappreciated and taken for granted when she did all of the housework. There are many reasons for why she may have been turned off from wanting to do housework. 

I'm a SAHM(mostly - work part-time) myself and when I feel like my husband just expects me to do everything, it can make me feel like his maid. Being a SAHM is a tough job. No pay, no acknowledgment of doing a good job, etc. compared to a job outside of the house where you get paid(and bonuses!) and are recognized for a job well done. It can be a thankless job to be a SAHM. I personally love being home with my son and don't mind the housework(for the most part), but as I said before that feeling can change depending on how my husband treats me. When I feel taken for granted, unappreciated, have to pick up after my husband when he's being disorganized/messy, etc. I would rather let the house get more messy than put in the effort to keep it more spotless. 

Just another viewpoint.


----------



## Mr The Other

Anonymous07 said:


> It could be that she felt unappreciated and taken for granted when she did all of the housework. There are many reasons for why she may have been turned off from wanting to do housework.
> 
> I'm a SAHM(mostly - work part-time) myself and when I feel like my husband just expects me to do everything, it can make me feel like his maid. Being a SAHM is a tough job. No pay, no acknowledgment of doing a good job, etc. compared to a job outside of the house where you get paid(and bonuses!) and are recognized for a job well done. It can be a thankless job to be a SAHM. I personally love being home with my son and don't mind the housework(for the most part), but as I said before that feeling can change depending on how my husband treats me. When I feel taken for granted, unappreciated, have to pick up after my husband when he's being disorganized/messy, etc. I would rather let the house get more messy than put in the effort to keep it more spotless.
> 
> Just another viewpoint.


She did start to help with the housework, but it took some ass kicking and, bluntly, if you are at home with no kids, then it is the least you can do. If she had been working long hours and I had not been working, I really doubt many men would defend me expecting her to do the housework.


----------



## Mr The Other

SimplyAmorous said:


> Not sure I follow what you are saying... the girl who GAVE you oral found the fact you haven't had it in years to be near "abuse" to a man.. but your wife would have found that to be "rapey" that this woman wanted to give you oral (I take it this was all before you married !).... or your wife is now your Ex or something.. *or I probably misread your whole comment??!*


I was unclear. I received oral sex after the marriage fell apart. I had received none during the marriage (and, TBF, stopped giving it too). The girl who gave me oral sex felt that my not having received oral sex for those years almost amounted to abuse (which is a bit strong).


----------



## jld

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I think that if you love someone you enjoy making them happy - even if doing that takes a substantial effort. If they love you they will do the same - and you will both be happy.
> 
> I think *wanting* to please someone is what is most important, if for some reason you aren't very good at it, the desire to do so will encourage you to get better.


I'm just not sure the substantial part is sustainable, RS.


----------



## Zouz

In real life there is no really unconditional endless love ...

There could be on long term contentment and deep friendship if they are lucky and matches in logic and interests ...

The baseline of above is when the person himself /herself is a able to be a giver and then reciprocate .

when you live with someone who is selfish ; you will never feel loved even if they act, believe and try to convince the world that they are full of love ...

Some creatures can not feel love ; and hence can't give ; it is not that they are rude ; they just don't feel able to give love ;

I recall one day , I was on treatment on a med that made me loose my taste sense ; and we went to a very elegant restaurant and everybody was tasting good food and wine around me ;I couldn't feel anything !


----------



## EleGirl

The point has been brought up that someone might think that they are meeting their spouses need, but in fact they are not.

This is where communication comes in to play. Both people have to talk and tell each other what they need. And both have to be open changing their behavior to meet their spouses needs.

If my husband does not tell me what he needs, then I'm guessing and will probably not do very well at meeting their needs.


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## notmyrealname4

Zouz said:


> In real life there is no really unconditional endless love ...


I agree with the above.

I would say there is no such thing as unconditional love, _at all_.


In fact, there shouldn't be. Very dangerous, unhealthy idea.


----------



## Zouz

right , 
Pleasing your husband is important under the umbrella of mutual agreement ; you would be satisfied when pleased your hub and expect that he will do the same ; and he does.

in such a context they sit and share the favorites ;and reciprocate with pleasuring each other .


from my point of view , when thier desires do not match , i find it even acceptable to exchange favors ; like wheny honney takes care of kids and house for a whole day ( he is HD) and she rests the whole day (LD) ; It is still acceptable that though it doesn't mean a lot for her to get a certain desire fulfilled ;the rest time could be exchanged with fulfilling his desire...

like he sacrificied the whole day ; letting you rest ; would you do a 20 min BJ that you Hate without having him beg for it ?


----------



## Jellybeans

I think that anyone would feel bad if they felt they could never please their partner. Rowan nailed it.



Rowan said:


> I could not please my ex-husband. And I am the type of person who needs to feel as if my partner is happy with me. He maintained a low level of seething anger and resentment much of the time throughout our marriage. He was the sort of person who claimed to not want anything, but actually expected a constantly shifting cloud of everything. It was, indeed, a highly stressful, anxiety inducing, self-esteem destroying, way to live.


So glad you got out. That is no way to live.


----------



## Jellybeans

Catherine602 said:


> I would not please anyone who was abusive or treated me with contempt or lack of appreciation. .


Exactly. That is not loving behavior at all. It's unkind and cruel and does nothing but kill the relationship.


----------



## jld

@Zous: My husband would not beg for a blow job. He would not beg for anything.


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## jld

He would never beg. I have been told to do things, though. Blush.


----------



## Racer

EleGirl said:


> If my husband does not tell me what he needs, then I'm guessing and will probably not do very well at meeting their needs.


Agreed… then again, that is only if you know the difference between how to communicate “need” versus only how to communicate what you’d like. My wife doesn’t “need” me to fold laundry; she’d like it if I would, or fetch her something from the other room, or ____. 

One night a few months ago, after a good hour of nonstop ‘fetch’, I sort of said something that changed the kids’ perception. She asked me to hand her her water sitting just a couple feet from her. I retorted ‘want me to wipe your arse for you too?’. Kids thought that was hysterical and I came up with non-sense threat to bring her a square of toilet paper every time she asks me to do something. The kids went with that idea. It was sort of sickening how that stack grew and how often one of them would dart off to the bathroom until they got smart and just brought a roll. The kids started making snide remarks. Wife started becoming apologetic since she had no clue how often and how natural it’d become for her. I sort of giggled inside because you could see her catch herself, think for a second, then get up and do whatever it was herself. I’d hoped she learned to appreciate all that little stuff I really do.

Yet, she isn’t a ‘good person’. A few days later, it morphed in her head to me turning the kids against her. 

Basic moral of the story; Be careful how good you are at communication.


----------



## Deejo

So, in your wife's case, the answer is a definitive ... 'No'.


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## jld

That sounds unkind, racer. I imagine it was funny the first time, but not after that. 

And encouraging the kids to disrespect her? Is that really the kind of person you want to be?


----------



## Deejo

Would be the kind of spouse she's earned, that's for sure.


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## jld

He might still want to be careful of the example he is setting for his children.


----------



## jld

Deejo said:


> Would be the kind of spouse she's earned, that's for sure.


The more I think about this, the less comfortable I feel with it.

Racer wants to feel good about himself, right? How can he feel good about himself if he is giving his wife the power to decide what kind of person he is going to be with her?

Pro-active, not reactive, would be healthier, I think.


----------



## Deejo

And I think he taught her a valuable lesson. One that she was embarrassed about and rather than owning her behavior, decided to deflect, and blame him anyway.

If I thought that Racer had a pattern of behaving disrespectfully to his wife, I may feel differently. But that is not the case. 

Sometimes you can swat your partner with pillow and they get it. Other times requires a 2x4. Still others necessitates the need for high yield explosives.


----------



## Anonymous07

Deejo said:


> And I think he taught her a valuable lesson. One that she was embarrassed about and rather than owning her behavior, decided to deflect, and blame him anyway.
> 
> If I thought that Racer had a pattern of behaving disrespectfully to his wife, I may feel differently. But that is not the case.
> 
> Sometimes you can swat your partner with pillow and they get it. Other times requires a 2x4. Still others necessitates the need for high yield explosives.


I don't think it matters if he has a pattern of this behavior or not. He was blatantly disrespectful to his wife and is encouraging his children to disrespect her as well.  That is not okay.

I think there are much better ways to handle the situation than what he did.


----------



## jld

Deejo said:


> And I think he taught her a valuable lesson. One that she was embarrassed about and rather than owning her behavior, decided to deflect, and blame him anyway.
> 
> If I thought that Racer had a pattern of behaving disrespectfully to his wife, I may feel differently. But that is not the case.
> 
> Sometimes you can swat your partner with pillow and they get it. Other times requires a 2x4. Still others necessitates the need for high yield explosives.


What lesson did he teach her? 

I suspect we might answer this differently.


----------



## Deejo

That she doesn't need to ask him ... or the kids to do things for her all of time she can do herself.


----------



## Deejo

Anonymous07 said:


> I don't think it matters if he has a pattern of this behavior or not. He was blatantly disrespectful to his wife and is encouraging his children to disrespect her as well.  That is not okay.
> 
> I think there are much better ways to handle the situation than what he did.


You obviously haven't read many of his posts. We'll have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Anonymous07

Deejo said:


> You obviously haven't read many of his posts. We'll have to agree to disagree.


Again, it doesn't matter if he is "normally" nice. All it takes is one time for her to lose respect for her husband. I don't think what he did was acceptable, especially in front of their kids(!). 

My husband is normally nice, but the other week said something he knew would hurt me. I have lost respect for my husband and the damage has been done. It's not okay. It doesn't matter that he normally doesn't do that. It doesn't excuse bad behavior.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Anonymous07 said:


> I don't think it matters if he has a pattern of this behavior or not. He was blatantly disrespectful to his wife and is encouraging his children to disrespect her as well.  That is not okay.
> 
> I think there are much better ways to handle the situation than what he did.


She can disrespect him a thousand times, but he better not dare to challenge her even once.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Anonymous07 said:


> Again, it doesn't matter if he is "normally" nice. All it takes is one time for her to lose respect for her husband. I don't think what he did was acceptable, especially in front of their kids(!).
> 
> My husband is normally nice, but the other week said something he knew would hurt me. I have lost respect for my husband and the damage has been done. It's not okay. It doesn't matter that he normally doesn't do that. It doesn't excuse bad behavior.


The ship you're looking for sailed away long ago. In many cases I would agree with your advise....even with Racer, had it been given a long time ago.


----------



## Anonymous07

WorkingOnMe said:


> She can disrespect him a thousand times, but he better not dare to challenge her even once.


I'm not saying her behavior is okay. I'm saying he could have 'challenged' her behavior in a much better way and not in front of their kids. He basically sunk down to her level(or lower) and just made things so much worse. He could have easily just made a boundary to say he won't get this or that for her, and left it at that... but instead he was extremely disrespectful and made fun of her in front of their children.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Anonymous07 said:


> I'm not saying her behavior is okay. I'm saying he could have 'challenged' her behavior in a much better way and not in front of their kids. He basically sunk down to her level(or lower) and just made things so much worse. He could have easily just made a boundary to say he won't get this or that for her, and left it at that... but instead he was extremely disrespectful and made fun of her in front of their children.


He's tried your approach for too long. Maybe she'll think twice next time. Sometimes you just have to escalate.


----------



## Anonymous07

WorkingOnMe said:


> He's tried your approach for too long. Maybe she'll think twice next time. Sometimes you just have to escalate.


I disagree. 

I see no excuse for that type of behavior. That is not how you treat your spouse. My husband would do behaviors I was not happy about, but I would never lower myself to that level to make fun of him in front of our son. 

If he had said "I won't pass you the water bottle" just a few feet away and stuck to that 'boundary', the problem could be solved because she would be forced to get it herself. She would eventually stop asking because he would never get it. I don't think it's that hard to do that vs what he did. What he did was not okay.


----------



## Deejo

Anonymous07 said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I see no excuse for that type of behavior. That is not how you treat your spouse. My husband would do behaviors I was not happy about, but I would never lower myself to that level to make fun of him in front of our son.
> 
> If he had said "I won't pass you the water bottle" just a few feet away and stuck to that 'boundary', the problem could be solved because she would be forced to get it herself. She would eventually stop asking because he would never get it. I don't think it's that hard to do that vs what he did. What he did was not okay.


So then to truly answer the OP's question, your answer is ... 'it depends'.

Pleasing your husband only remains a priority for as long as you are pleased by him?

Isn't that in itself rather quid pro quo?

I agree that being disrespectful isn't a way to build or strengthen a relationship. 

I still think Racer's response was rather awesome, given his circumstances. And that isn't going to change despite anyone's indignation. At least now she can point to something real to be pissed at him over.


----------



## jld

But it is not pro-active, Deejo.


----------



## jld

Deejo said:


> That she doesn't need to ask him ... or the kids to do things for her all of time she can do herself.


I agree, but she also saw what he will stoop to. I don't think he gave an example of good parenting. And I think A7 gave a great alternative.


----------



## jld

Deejo said:


> So then to truly answer the OP's question, your answer is ... 'it depends'.
> 
> Pleasing your husband only remains a priority for as long as you are pleased by him?
> 
> Isn't that in itself rather quid pro quo?


I think women are often responders. 

It does bring up an interesting question, though. Do we please him to please him? Do we please him for what we can get for pleasing him? Do we please him because it pleases us to please him? 

What are our motives?


----------



## Deejo

jld said:


> What are our motives?


Now there is the scary question ...


----------



## jld




----------



## doubletrouble

opcorn:


----------



## Anonymous07

Deejo said:


> So then to truly answer the OP's question, your answer is ... *'it depends'.*
> 
> Pleasing your husband only remains a priority for as long as you are pleased by him?
> 
> Isn't that in itself rather quid pro quo?
> 
> I agree that being disrespectful isn't a way to build or strengthen a relationship.
> 
> I still think Racer's response was rather awesome, given his circumstances. And that isn't going to change despite anyone's indignation. At least now she can point to something real to be pissed at him over.


You can say it depends, because I refuse to "reward" bad behavior. If my husband acts disrespectful, then I'm not going to please him for what he wants then. It's not about what I get out of it too, as I do many things that only benefit him. I enjoy pleasing my husband because it makes him happy. I just don't respond well to bad behavior and will not tolerate being treated that way. I have certain boundaries for myself and our relationship for what is okay vs what is not. My husband knows this, so if he chooses to act a certain way anyways, then he knows my reaction. I'm not going to be a doormat and be walked over, but I also don't withhold just because I want this or that myself. I hope that makes sense. 

I still find Racer's response unacceptable. There are so many other ways he could have handled it in a more respectful manner.


----------



## Racer

Anonymous07 said:


> If he had said "I won't pass you the water bottle" just a few feet away and stuck to that 'boundary', the problem could be solved because she would be forced to get it herself. She would eventually stop asking because he would never get it. I don't think it's that hard to do that vs what he did. What he did was not okay.


But you are cut from a different piece of cloth. She is sitting on the couch curled up in the blanket I fetched for her, full on the dinner I cooked, and holding the remote I found for her; She can get her own water off the table where she left it. The kids were already doing the ‘poor dad’ because each time I tried to sit down, there was something else. I finally sat down and she asks for something else minor that she is more than capable of doing herself. I told her no and got the “Really!? How hard is it for you to do!?”… and me, being me, cracked a joke about whether she’d like me to wipe her arse while I’m at it. And it took off from there… Also note that the ‘would you?’ petty stuff didn’t stop even after getting called out on it by the kids who aren’t blind. Who exactly is disrespecting whom? 

It’s already an ongoing joke in the house that if our youngest asks mom for a glass of milk, she immediately relays the command to me. So it goes like this; youngest, “Mom, can I have some chocolate milk?” And everyone in unison yells “Dad, get him a glass of chocolate milk!” That is simply who she is. The youngest, with a gleam in his eye looking at me and knowing what’s coming does this often. We both snicker… It is beyond predictable and routine: Dad pours the milk. Dad does quite a lot around the house. Mom can’t see it because she’s convinced “She does everything around here and no one helps her..” The whole family rolls their eyes. So a simple stack of toilet paper is really hard for her to ignore and our own little rebellion.. No encouragement required.

Something else to keep in mind. I am one parent. They are their Mother’s children; They too learned the lessons she taught. So “communicating displeasure” is not something they fear that much beyond her reaction; As they get further into their teenage years, they risk more. This was actually a nice way to do this… they learned from me to laugh at some of her crazy and how to accept it as just who she is.


----------



## Deejo

Anonymous07 said:


> You can say it depends, because I refuse to "reward" bad behavior. If my husband acts disrespectful, then I'm not going to please him for what he wants then. It's not about what I get out of it too, as I do many things that only benefit him. I enjoy pleasing my husband because it makes him happy. I just don't respond well to bad behavior and will not tolerate being treated that way. I have certain boundaries for myself and our relationship for what is okay vs what is not. My husband knows this, so if he chooses to act a certain way anyways, then he knows my reaction. I'm not going to be a doormat and be walked over, but I also don't withhold just because I want this or that myself. I hope that makes sense.


Makes perfectly, wonderful, logical, healthy and functional sense. I'm not being sarcastic. Couldn't ask for a healthier, and more balanced perspective. I think it's great if you and your husband understand and have ground rules for how you deal with one another.


----------



## Anonymous07

Racer said:


> But you are cut from a different piece of cloth. She is sitting on the couch curled up in the blanket I fetched for her, full on the dinner I cooked, and holding the remote I found for her; She can get her own water off the table where she left it. The kids were already doing the ‘poor dad’ because each time I tried to sit down, there was something else. I finally sat down and she asks for something else minor that she is more than capable of doing herself. I told her no and got the “Really!? How hard is it for you to do!?”… and me, being me, cracked a joke about whether she’d like me to wipe her arse while I’m at it. And it took off from there… Also note that the ‘would you?’ petty stuff didn’t stop even after getting called out on it by the kids who aren’t blind. Who exactly is disrespecting whom?
> 
> It’s already an ongoing joke in the house that if our youngest asks mom for a glass of milk, she immediately relays the command to me. So it goes like this; youngest, “Mom, can I have some chocolate milk?” And everyone in unison yells “Dad, get him a glass of chocolate milk!” That is simply who she is. The youngest, with a gleam in his eye looking at me and knowing what’s coming does this often. We both snicker… It is beyond predictable and routine: Dad pours the milk. Dad does quite a lot around the house. Mom can’t see it because she’s convinced “She does everything around here and no one helps her..” The whole family rolls their eyes. So a simple stack of toilet paper is really hard for her to ignore and our own little rebellion.. No encouragement required.
> 
> Something else to keep in mind. I am one parent. They are their Mother’s children; They too learned the lessons she taught. So “communicating displeasure” is not something they fear that much beyond her reaction; As they get further into their teenage years, they risk more. This was actually a nice way to do this… they learned from me to laugh at some of her crazy and how to accept it as just who she is.


If you read my other comments, I never said her behavior was okay. I said you handled it poorly and I still think that way. 

Instead of helping to change her behavior by setting boundaries in a respectful way("No, I won't get you that. It is easy for me to do, but I would like to rest, too."), you lowered yourself to being disrespectful back to her and you're teaching your children that being disrespectful is okay, when it is not. You're setting an example to your children and they are watching exactly how you handle situations. They learn so much from your actions beyond how you tell them to act. You are the one who let your wife treat you that way. I wouldn't put up with being treated like a maid and have put that boundary for my husband who did not used to pick up after himself. I blatantly told him that I won't go around cleaning up after him all of the time and just stopped doing that. I didn't say it disrespectfully, didn't make fun of him, and did not do that in front of our son. He learned his lesson as his stuff was all over and never got cleaned up, so he had to do it himself. 

I honestly would be extremely pissed if my husband acted the way you did. Her bad behavior is not an excuse for you to behave poorly, too.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

If she's pissed then good. She needs a good shake up. Taking the high road has no affect so something has to open her eyes.


----------



## Anonymous07

WorkingOnMe said:


> If she's pissed then good. She needs a good shake up. Taking the high road has no affect so something has to open her eyes.


Even if it helped open her eyes, not in the best way, it has still set a very bad example for their kids. This is not the way to handle a situation like this and his kids now think it is. I hope they learn to handle tough situations with respect, but right now I don't see that and I think it's sad.


----------



## Deejo

Anonymous07 said:


> Even if it helped open her eyes, not in the best way, it has still set a very bad example for their kids. This is not the way to handle a situation like this and his kids now think it is. I hope they learn to handle tough situations with respect, but right now I don't see that and I think it's sad.


What do you think it is that you changed that improved your husbands behavior?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Racer said:


> *But you are cut from a different piece of cloth.* She is sitting on the couch curled up in the blanket I fetched for her, full on the dinner I cooked, and holding the remote I found for her; She can get her own water off the table where she left it. The kids were already doing the ‘poor dad’ because each time I tried to sit down, there was something else. I finally sat down and she asks for something else minor that she is more than capable of doing herself. I told her no and got the “Really!? How hard is it for you to do!?”… and me, being me, cracked a joke about whether she’d like me to wipe her arse while I’m at it. And it took off from there… Also note that the ‘would you?’ petty stuff didn’t stop even after getting called out on it by the kids who aren’t blind. Who exactly is disrespecting whom?
> 
> It’s already an ongoing joke in the house that if our youngest asks mom for a glass of milk, she immediately relays the command to me. So it goes like this; youngest, “Mom, can I have some chocolate milk?” And everyone in unison yells “Dad, get him a glass of chocolate milk!” That is simply who she is. The youngest, with a gleam in his eye looking at me and knowing what’s coming does this often. We both snicker… It is beyond predictable and routine: Dad pours the milk. Dad does quite a lot around the house. Mom can’t see it because she’s convinced “She does everything around here and no one helps her..” The whole family rolls their eyes. So a simple stack of toilet paper is really hard for her to ignore and our own little rebellion.. No encouragement required.
> 
> Something else to keep in mind. I am one parent. They are their Mother’s children; They too learned the lessons she taught. So “communicating displeasure” is not something they fear that much beyond her reaction; As they get further into their teenage years, they risk more. This was actually a nice way to do this… they learned from me to laugh at some of her crazy and how to accept it as just who she is.


I've come to the conclusion that you are an unaware masochist, Racer. Therefore, you are actually the one who is cut from a different cloth. Your wife is clearly also an unaware sadist. But you're both dancing the steps of the dance you created together.


----------



## Anonymous07

Deejo said:


> What do you think it is that you changed that improved your husbands behavior?


I stopped acting like his maid. I wasn't going to follow him around to put his dirty plate away in the dishwasher, pick up his clothes and put them in the hamper, and so on. He is a grown man and can do that on his own, which he has done. After the plate sat there over night, he put it away the next morning. After a while, he learned that I'm not going to be following him around to clean up his mess. 

I think of this situation like bullies on a playground. All of the kids I have nannied and what I will teach my own son as he gets older, is that you should defend yourself to a bully, but being bullied does not give you a right to be a bully yourself. Stand up for yourself, but don't be mean. 2 wrongs don't make a right, so to speak.


----------



## Thundarr

This thread is so manic. I guess that makes sense because everyone one of us bring our baggage to the keyboard. I believe my wife wants to please me because she thinks I'm a good man (person) and she knows I try to be good to her even when I make mistakes and aren't or when I suck at showing it. Things like not being appreciated or treated well or being taken for granted or not feeling able to meet the expectations are just damaging to relationships.

My thoughts I guess are that most women want to "want to please" their husbands. I can only imagine when that feeling isn't there, it must make the woman resent her husband for not being the guy she just adores, loves, and respects. In other words I'm just blabbering stuff we probably already know.


----------



## jld

I think most women want to please, too, but when resentment builds up, the desire to please can evaporate.

I think a man really needs to be careful about earning and maintaining his wife's respect. When he compromises his integrity, how is his wife supposed to genuinely respect him? She may go through the motions, but what is she really feeling in her heart?


----------



## Thundarr

jld said:


> I think most women want to please, too, but when resentment builds up, the desire to please can evaporate.
> 
> *I think a man really needs to be careful about earning and maintaining his wife's respect. When he compromises his integrity, how is his wife supposed to genuinely respect him? She may go through the motions, but what is she really feeling in her heart?*


Well said jld. And it's a pitfall that many men (me included) have fallen into. The smart ones or lucky ones of us figure it out. That doesn't mean we succeed but knowing what to strive for is more than half the battle.


----------



## jld

Did you have to make some changes, Thundarr?


----------



## heartsbeating

jld said:


> Do we please him to please him? Do we please him for what we can get for pleasing him? Do we please him because it pleases us to please him?


Yes, most likely.


----------



## jld




----------



## Racer

Thundarr said:


> Well said jld. And it's a pitfall that many men (me included) have fallen into. The smart ones or lucky ones of us figure it out. That doesn't mean we succeed but knowing what to strive for is more than half the battle.


It's hard. The reason it is hard is what I respect about myself is not the same list as what my wife respects about me. Even in the crossovers, there are plenty of opposites. Like she respects and loves my humor, not so much when she's the joke. And what she respects is conditional and a moving target. So, she loves that I’m playing with the boys… then complains later about not doing some project. I simply stopped trying to chase that rabbit; Respect for myself is all I can control. Not her.

There is one simple fact: *I can’t please someone intent on seeking out reasons for displeasure. * No matter what pleasurable things you do for them they will be dismissed, devalued as just expected behavior/actions, or twisted “you just said that because it’s the right thing to say” (they assume its a lie). If they are looking for fault, they will find it or create it just so they can point at how empty that cup is. You can do 50 things for them and the 51st where you said ‘no’ is the one that seemed to matter. The cup will always be empty… duh. You also can’t reason your way out of the irrational. So you laugh at that sad blindness to how full the cup really is.

Or you can get angry and dump the f'n cup just so they can witness the complete emptiness of it all; 180 is good at that. Sometimes that is necessary too....

Also keep in mind 20+ years together. So, I've been doing nice stuff like tossing her a blanket if she looks cold out of just kindness. Repetition becomes normalcy. Then it's devalued as just normal behavior. Then it becomes expected. Then when you don't; all hell breaks loose.


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## Thundarr

jld said:


> Did you have to make some changes, Thundarr?


Oh lord yes. I was a poor excuse for a husband but personally I think I was a diamond in the rough :smthumbup:. It wasn't because I wasn't trying. I did everything right on the surface. Worked hard, took care my kids, treated my ex with respect, etc. But I did not defend myself or set boundaries and if I'd known about boundaries, I would have folded on them anyway because I was afraid to be alone.

Self anger about the crap I put up with from my ex made me wake up and open my eyes. It's a lot better to have self respect, integrity, and principles and then decide who I let be around me or not. Turns out that's the kind of man my current wife (and I think most women) needed and wanted to be with.


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## Thundarr

Racer said:


> It's hard. The reason it is hard is what I respect about myself is not the same list as what my wife respects about me.


Our stories are not the same. I didn't try or want my ex any more, did not want her respect, did not want her love, and did not want to work things out. That ship had already sailed and fault and blame didn't matter. The water was already under the bridge. I'm not sure if you can ever regain respect once it's lost. At least not all of it.

Truth be told, I'm lucky my wife now could handle my baggage because my boundaries were like brick walls and I would have dropped her like a rock over them even after I was crazy in love. After enough years I think she toned me a little bit which is good. Extremes can be a problem.


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## john117

jld said:


> He would never beg. I have been told to do things, though. Blush.



Why beg when you can manipulate?

1/2


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## Racer

Thundarr said:


> Truth be told, I'm lucky my wife now could handle my baggage because my boundaries were like brick walls and I would have dropped her like a rock over them even after I was crazy in love. After enough years I think she toned me a little bit which is good. Extremes can be a problem.


Closer than you think. Like you, a lack of boundaries before. Then she scuttled the marriage. I re-evaluated myself and found I would cave if you pushed… less boundaries than you; I didn’t leave a vindictive serial adulterer. So ya… the over the top boundaries where anything or any give would be met with a ferocious defense as I set some boundaries and learned to defend them. Over time, I too have tempered it. So while I know some of the junk she asks of me is not seen as a request, I still do it… It basically has to pass that internal check of whether or not I actually mind doing it and am willing to give her that gift whether or not she wants to see it that way. The old me would roll over hoping for a treat.

So it’s not the old doormat avoidance anymore or the seeking approval. But it’s also not the strong “I’m not a dog to play fetch for you!” response either. It’s the happy medium of me deciding what I want to do and sometimes that ends with a smile and asking if she wants me to wipe her bum too 

Gotta pay some homage to the old passive/aggressive in me. Though this time it was more of a double dog dare…


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## techmom

Thundarr said:


> This thread is so manic. I guess that makes sense because everyone one of us bring our baggage to the keyboard. I believe my wife wants to please me because she thinks I'm a good man (person) and she knows I try to be good to her even when I make mistakes and aren't or when I suck at showing it. Things like not being appreciated or treated well or being taken for granted or not feeling able to meet the expectations are just damaging to relationships.
> 
> *My thoughts I guess are that most women want to "want to please" their husbands. I can only imagine when that feeling isn't there, it must make the woman resent her husband for not being the guy she just adores, loves, and respects.* In other words I'm just blabbering stuff we probably already know.


I love this part because it rings true for me. Women love to love and be loved.

In Racer's case, he was such a doormat for so long that he feels frustrated, and he lashes out at his wife. Doing so in front of your kids is unacceptable, it is like using a scorched earth policy to right the many wrongs that were done.

As they say, a stitch in time....


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## ConanHub

Mrs. Conan and I both work hard to please each other and we do.

We have also gotten quite good at it and continue to improve.


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## Zouz

No women on earth will please her hub without an expected return ;
Same for husbands but the expected return is tangible ...


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## Jellybeans

Zouz said:


> No women on earth will please her hub without an expected return


I disagree.


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## john117

Jellybeans said:


> I disagree.



If your experience is only based on Western women I agree with you. But earth includes all kinds of regions


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## Zouz

Jellybeans said:


> I disagree.


In western World , People get married , stay in a marriage and live together because they want to spend their life happy (first), then to build a family and other things ..

In some other places of the world ,they are raised on the holistic idea that they should build a family which will make you happy ;it worked for thousands of years ; when the hub was a man , and the wife was a woman ...
There was a great level of commitment ...

Now in the new world , both do not work anymore ; the pace of life is so fast , that we are forgetting to love , commit and sacrifice ; expectations are getting higher and higher and higher .

I have at home like majority of homes , many ipads , many Tvs , many phones ; so many technical channels ,.. so many social complexities.... I am opening a thread now on this


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## jld

Jellybeans said:


> I disagree.


Maybe you would like to elaborate?


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## Jellybeans

john117 said:


> If your experience is only based on Western women I agree with you. But earth includes all kinds of regions


I'm fully aware of the geography of earth. 

And I still disagree.


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## john117

Just for curiosity, would you elaborate about your worldly women experience?


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## Deejo

There is an entire chapter dedicated to this concept in the book, "Committed: A Skeptic Makes Peace With Marriage" by Elizabeth Gilbert (Eat, Pray, Love)

She traveled throughout Asia, and studied the history of marriage.

The concept and prerequisite of 'being madly in love with' your spouse is almost singularly a modern, and western concept. And ... she also postulates that as a result, predicating a marriage upon the concept of romantic love, synergistically assured that the divorce rate would go up as well.

In other cultures, what constitutes a good husband, or a good wife, or respect between the two, has little to do with personal fulfillment, or romantic love.

It is a commitment to a contract and usually surrounds the creation of a family. The needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few.


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## Zouz

Jelly ,

In some places of the world , women is still seen at the milk producer and the man is that creature who brings food home .

she could think that she is pleasing her hub by producing more milk !

Culture has great effect on women all around the world ; lighter effect on men .....


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## Zouz

So when a women comes from a culture that portrait sex as shame or weakness ; women no longer wants to please their husband and man pay the price too...


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## Blonde

Observation- many of the men seem to interpret "please the husband" as a sexual thing

I think all women of all time of all cultures have a desire to please their husbands. A wife desires her husband's approval. She wants to be "enough" for him.

So a muslim wife will wear a burka and be a milk producer because that is a "good wife" in that culture



Zouz said:


> No women on earth will please her hub without an expected return ;


In a way its true. A wife wants to please her husband and she desires his approval. She wants to be valued by him and loved by him.

Perhaps it becomes something of a covert contract? She gets into performance mode and tries very hard to be a good wife. But she doesn't feel valued and loved. She feels taken for granted.

So she gives up.

It can be a healthy move. Drop the covert contracts. Stop depending on him for her value and worth. Don't depend on him being pleased with you. Be pleasing to yourself; Be pleasing to God.


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## Zouz

Blonde said:


> Observation- many of the "deprived" men seem to interpret "please the husband" as a sexual thing
> 
> 
> I think all women of all time of all cultures have a desire to please their husbands. A wife desires her husband's approval. She wants to be "enough" for him.
> 
> So a muslim wife will wear a burka and be a milk producer because that is a "good wife" in that culture
> 
> 
> In a way its true. A wife wants to please her husband and she desires his approval. She wants to be valued by him and loved by him.
> 
> very true for a normal women located in haydarabad, NYC or even Sudan , the normal women will try to please her husban .
> 
> Perhaps it becomes something of a covert contract? She gets into performance mode and tries very hard to be a good wife. But she doesn't feel valued and loved. She feels taken for granted.
> 
> So she gives up.
> 
> which proves that :
> 
> "No women on earth will please her hub without an expected return ;
> Same for husbands but the expected return is tangible ... "
> 
> Men are clear in specifying the return expected :
> nice food, less talk , some sex ...


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## Zouz

There is a confusion sometimes also about the definition of pleasure;
for a woman or man irrespective ( but affected by social env); one could love dark chocolate yet the spouse adores milky ones ; when one of the parteners sacrifice because they can only get one bar ,the other one would expect ( i.e expect returns ) on sacrifice next time ...


but it is very important when we talk about pleasure that we do not generalize ;and define sacrifice properly .

if my wife hates white chocolate she is not sacrificing in not eating white chocolate .

as for sex, if both are normal , it should never be a sacrifice because they both enjoy it .

by saying give pleasure , it means sacrifice is involved ....
and a price for any pleasure is usually high ....


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## Blonde

Zouz said:


> which proves that :
> 
> "No women on earth will please her hub without an expected return ;
> Same for husbands but the expected return is tangible ... "
> 
> Men are clear in specifying the return expected :
> nice food, less talk , some sex ...


And I'm saying that's a covert contract- which- if you do your ManTAM homework is a NoNo.


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## Jellybeans

john117 said:


> Just for curiosity, would you elaborate about *your worldly women experience*?


That comes across as condescending or a dig. Or maybe I am interpreting it wrong. 



Zouz said:


> *No women on earth will please her hub without an expected return *


*

It's pretty simple. I don't agree that "no woman on earth" would ever want to please her husband/man/partner without receiving anything in return. 

My experience is that there are all kinds of people and situations and it'd be a pretty sad way to live if you only did things for others or thought of pleasing them so that you can get something in return.



*


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## john117

Probably wrong interpretation. If you grew up in one spot you will have a different view of the world than if you have travelled all over Europe, dated a bunch of Asian women and married one, and have tons of married and single friends from all over the world...


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## Mr The Other

Blonde said:


> Observation- many of the men seem to interpret "please the husband" as a sexual thing
> 
> I think all women of all time of all cultures have a desire to please their husbands. A wife desires her husband's approval. She wants to be "enough" for him.
> 
> So a muslim wife will wear a burka and be a milk producer because that is a "good wife" in that culture
> 
> In a way its true. A wife wants to please her husband and she desires his approval. She wants to be valued by him and loved by him.
> 
> Perhaps it becomes something of a covert contract? She gets into performance mode and tries very hard to be a good wife. But she doesn't feel valued and loved. She feels taken for granted.
> 
> So she gives up.
> 
> It can be a healthy move. Drop the covert contracts. Stop depending on him for her value and worth. Don't depend on him being pleased with you. Be pleasing to yourself; Be pleasing to God.


I think what you describe is the crux of the issue. I would not expect most women are intrinsically eager to make their husband happier. Not in the same way that it is perhaps natural for a man to care for the well being of a woman. I also think it would be unfair to expect it. However, there are a lot of men on this forum in particular who expect to be actively looked after and cared for.

There is a prestige factor that means few women would be content to think they were making their man miserable. This is something you write about well.

We are probably equally wrong


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## Blonde

I'm all for equality MTO.


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## MEM2020

This whole conversation strikes such a chord with me. 

Poor Abraham Maslow, I'm about to take his hierarchy of needs into the bedroom. 

At the base of the pyramid is commitment. This is when your partner is maintaining the physical part of the marriage because they made vows. 

I've been there - and - in terms of sexual self esteem it isn't great. 

And yet. I have to tell you that this is a place where you look at your partner and realize that this is the person you are going to grow old with. This is the person who, if need be, you will push in their wheel chair. Because their commitment - shows you married a good person. 

And having been in this place, and come through to the other side, I can also report back that I now understand why people stop having sex. Because there are times when - in a strained marriage - the IDEA of sex feels wrong. And when that happened to me, I simply reminded myself that extended foreplay is the antidote to any such bizarre thinking. 

One night - we had a session that began with me thinking: Is this what it's like to fall out of love? To lose desire? 

And ended with me wondering: Did I just have some type of cardiac event - because I just came so hard the room disappeared for a while. 

And that was when I realized something truly incredible about M2. She NEVER EVER rushes me. EVER. Just like I never rush her. And on those nights where - I was starting out - hell not even in neutral - I was in slow reverse - she just did her magic and let nature take its course at whatever pace it did. 

So - here's the pyramid from top to bottom:

Top: sexual desire, lust
Middle: genuine desire to please your partner in bed
Bottom: commitment to the marriage, to feeling bonded, to the belief that monogamy is best safeguarded by oxytocin 

Commitment sounds like this: We're doing this because it's good for US. Not because I feel sorry for YOU. 






jld said:


> @Zous: My husband would not beg for a blow job. He would not beg for anything.


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## john117

That's a pyramid of sexual / physical / emotional needs if I'm reading this correctly. A marriage has several other dimensions that need to be looked into (financial comes to mind, careers, children...)

A lot of marriages rich in oxytocin fail because there's more to fulfilling needs than that...


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## MEM2020

John,

Totally agree. This was a supplement to Maslow, not a replacement. 

And FWIW - certainly the core areas you reference: money, kids - can wreck a marriage as badly as a broken sex life. 

That said, the hierarchy in the bedroom reflects my experience. 





john117 said:


> That's a pyramid of sexual / physical / emotional needs if I'm reading this correctly. A marriage has several other dimensions that need to be looked into (financial comes to mind, careers, children...)
> 
> A lot of marriages rich in oxytocin fail because there's more to fulfilling needs than that...


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## Faiora

I think it's important that both partners in any relationship want to please each other. Thing is, you have to please the other person on their level, not your own. 

Something my husband cares about is a clean house. He doesn't expect me to do all the work, but he expects me to care about it as well because it's important to him. Not only do I care, I make every effort to involve myself in house cleaning efforts and worked with him to organize and implement a schedule for us. Now we do a big house cleaning together every Tuesday afternoon. 

I care about my hobbies and projects, and I go to a writing group every Wednesday night. When it's my turn for food every 6th week, my husband drives me there so I don't have to carry everything on the train. He comes to hang out on social nights with the group, and reminds me to do my writing on the weekends (which is annoying but also cute and supportive).

My husband really likes a certain band, and when they were in Seattle I organized a trip on his weekend so we could drive down for the concert. I made it a big surprise and I was so happy to see the look on his face when he found out (at the hotel, when we were calling a taxi and some girl in the lobby said "Oh are you going to see Placebo?"). Well actually, his face was completely impassive, but that's how my husband seems on the outside when he's taking in big news. I knew how excited he was. 

He brought me tulips a couple days ago, wrapped up in pretty paper. He hardly ever does that, but I did gush over some Christmas bouquets at Costco two days before that, so that's probably where he got the idea. He'd just gotten off his night shift and he woke me up with them. It was very sweet. 

I think every healthy, long-lasting relationship has this kind of supportiveness and caring, with both people doing things to please the other. That doesn't necessarily mean buying flowers, or surprising someone with concert tickets... but it does mean doing and saying things to make your partner happy, because you like to see them happy. Because you care how they're feeling.


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## Fozzy

Faiora said:


> I think it's important that both partners in any relationship want to please each other. Thing is, you have to please the other person on their level, not your own.


:iagree:

The Platinum Rule.


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## scatty

I admit I only read the first and last pages of this thread. I please my hubby because it makes me feel good. I really don't expect anything in return. 

Sometimes it will be tit for tat, but at times one partner is sick/stressed/mentally suffering and to tune into easing that and instead of what you will get in return is HIGHLY rewarding. 

When we try to take the pressures off of each other, each of us is compelled (able) to make the other happy. That is just us, but I think when you start keeping score, you both lose.


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## doubletrouble

scatty said:


> * I please my hubby because it makes me feel good.*
> 
> ....when you start keeping score, you both lose.


Exactly my take on it. You please your partner because it makes you feel good to see them pleased. It creates an upward spiral of energy in the relationship. 

And you can NEVER keep score. That's not what it's about.


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## Fozzy

Except on Christmas. We totally keep score on Christmas.


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## john117

Fozzy said:


> Except on Christmas. We totally keep score on Christmas.



Doesn't everyone?


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## doubletrouble

Fozzy said:


> Except on Christmas. We totally keep score on Christmas.


I thought the idea was TO score on Christmas. :smthumbup:


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## mpgunner

I think it is interesting that women view this as a interesting question to themselves.

Yet, I think most guys take a long time to understand what it means to "please their wife" - in presence and sexually. For me, and I hope other guys, there is nothing like simply surprising their woman and, sexually, turning them into jello.


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