# Wives (and husbands) who don't want their partner using porn



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

There have been several threads on here about what it seems to be mainly wives wanting divorces because their husbands have been watching porn. 

Personally, my wife doesn't have a problem with me watching porn, or me her, and I do it from time to time, if our sex life is really frequent I basically don't use it at all but have had dry spells in the past where I would have used it 3 or 4 times a week. She has told me she's looked at it a few times but it didn't do anything for her. She's more into erotic books.

I got to wondering what is it about watching porn that is the problem?

Do they honestly think their men are doing anything other than masturbating with something impersonal and arousing to look at?
Where do they stand on romantic / erotic fiction, vibrators, "chick flicks" etc which all encourage them to imagine themselves swept away and ravished by some hunk other than their husband (ok not the vibrators !!!) ?
Is it lying about porn is the issue rather than the porn itself?
Do men feel the same way about their women watching porn alone?
How do these women feel about masturbation?
Do these women have lots of sex with their husbands?
Do these women ever talk about sex with their husbands?
Is it a power / control thing in that there is nothing else they can shame their husbands about except this?

The only reason I use women above is that I never see threads from men about this stuff.

Anyone got any input?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Good Guy said:


> Anyone got any input?


Many women have body issues and that their husband's use of porn emphasizes her own self esteem issues with weight, best size, hair color, and so on. 

Many husbands LIE to their wives about porn use and it is hard to love someone that is constantly lying in a relationship. 

Porn for the most part is unrealistic. Some women struggle to reconcile their husband's view of sexuality of what he has been seen in porn versus what actually happens in the marriage bed.

Many men use porn as an EASY and alternate way to relieve sexual tension as opposed to taking the time needed to deal with ongoing issues in a relationship. Generally speaking sexual tension should motivate a man to solve problems in a marriage sooner than later, but porn will more often than not just allow him ignore things. 

Some wives struggle with the idea that their husband's sexuality is just an arbitrary drive and that any available outlet to relieve sexual tension will work. Porn use emphasizes this idea and makes her begin to feel used during intimacy in the marriage. 

Husbands that use porn are often overstimulated and may begin having trouble enjoying natural intercourse. 

Most importantly those experiencing problems in their marriage are often completely unable to address the problems listed above in a respectful and confident manner. Most revelations of the above will destroy self confidence and result in bitter disputes. 

Regards,
Badsanta


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Many women have body issues and that their husband's use of porn emphasizes her own self esteem issues with weight, best size, hair color, and so on.


Not if you watch granny porn :grin2:

I think women fail to realize that we husbands are not as motivated by our wives looks as they think we are. A sexy attitude and an open mind in regards to sex trumps looks every damn time.

My wife is 50 years old and she is sexier to me today than when we first got married. Truth.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin to it!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Good Guy said:


> There have been several threads on here about what it seems to be mainly wives wanting divorces because their husbands have been watching porn.
> 
> Personally, my wife doesn't have a problem with me watching porn, or me her, and I do it from time to time, if our sex life is really frequent I basically don't use it at all but have had dry spells in the past where I would have used it 3 or 4 times a week. She has told me she's looked at it a few times but it didn't do anything for her. She's more into erotic books.
> 
> ...


Some men substitute porn for their wives, you can see how that would be a problem right? Also some young men confuse porn for what real sex is, which also affects them by the way. Who can compete with camera tricks and men who hit the well endowed lottery. Basically sometimes there is a very good reason for being pissed off about it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Many men use porn as an EASY and alternate way to relieve sexual tension as opposed to taking the time needed to deal with ongoing issues in a relationship. Generally speaking sexual tension should motivate a man to solve problems in a marriage sooner than later, but porn will more often than not just allow him ignore things.


Wow I never thought of this, makes a lot of sense.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

sokillme said:


> Some men substitute porn for their wives, you can see how that would be a problem right? Also some young men confuse porn for what real sex is, which also affects them by the way. Who can compete with camera tricks and men who hit the well endowed lottery. Basically sometimes there is a very good reason for being pissed off about it.


This above is the main issue. We have seen several threads here brought up by women about their husband's who show little interest in sex yet always find time to whack off to porn. That doesn't exactly send the best message across.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

I can't speak across the board for wives who don't approve of porn. I'm totally fine with it, as long as my partner isn't using it as a substitute for me, or neglecting me in favor of using the porn.

But my mom... is dead-set against it. And the list of why's is a mile long:

--It makes her feel inferior and bad about her body because she doesn't look like those women, never has, and (at 65) never will
--She thinks it is degrading to women
--She thinks that if a man has a wife/partner, he shouldn't want or need it because he has someone he can see naked
--Makes her feel like she isn't enough for him

Etc, etc. My mother doesn't make a habit of reading erotic fiction, but she reads enough novels with steamy sex scenes in them for me to know that she's not a total prude. But she doesn't equate those steamy novels/sex scenes with porn.

But with my mother, I think it's also about control. She wants to control everyone and everything around her, and she can be very manipulative. She loves using shame as a weapon to control people. So she makes the fact that my dad likes porn ALL ABOUT HER (and my points above really are all about her issues), when it really has nothing to do with her, whatsoever. As much as I dislike thinking about my dad as a sexual being... he's a dude, and dudes like naked chicks. They just DO.

It has nothing to do with the way my dad feels about my mom. He has put up with her sh!t for like 40 years, and she gets more batsh!t crazy every year, and he will stick around no matter how crazy she gets, because he loves her, and he would never in a million years cheat on her, because he loves her. Even if he likes looking a naked chicks he doesn't know, and likes to watch them having sex on film.

She used to say to him, "You have two daughters! What would they think if they found this? To know that their father is ok with demeaning and objectifying women?" She tried to use us to shame him. Which is funny (and a little sad), because I DID find his video stash when I was home between my freshman and sophomore years of college, and I DID watch them... and I didn't think any of that. I was really curious (this was before porn was so easy to find on the internet), but my biggest reaction was that I was a little icked out to think of my father as a sexual person. But I never for one moment thought that he didn't respect women. He had always taught me to be a feminist, and that I could do anything that a boy could do, etc, etc. He is more interested in a person's character and abilities than their gender. The fact that he has a sex drive, while it icks me out, doesn't change any of that.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Some men substitute porn for their wives, you can see how that would be a problem right?


Yes of course. I'm talking about relationships where the man is more than willing to have sex with his wife (i.e. the vast majority of them).



sokillme said:


> Also some young men confuse porn for what real sex is, which also affects them by the way.


That's what proper sex education is for.



sokillme said:


> Who can compete with camera tricks and men who hit the well endowed lottery. Basically sometimes there is a very good reason for being pissed off about it.


With that mindset we shouldn't watch any Hollywood movies. On my first trip to the States I was amazed there were so many ordinary, overweight and normal looking people just like back home. I was comparing Hollywood movies to the reality. Another thing struck me was how friendly and polite everyone was, exactly unlike the movies. Fantasy vs reality. If you can't tell the difference you got bigger problems.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> This above is the main issue. We have seen several threads here brought up by women about their husband's who show little interest in sex yet always find time to whack off to porn. That doesn't exactly send the best message across.


I agree, however there are women and men who basically assume any porn use is cheating. I also think this is the other extreme. Also some of that comes from insecurity. 

To me porn is nothing at all like sex. The only similarities are you use the same parts. Sex is a very intimate experience you share with someone. Porn is more like brushing your teeth or something. Not much more meaning then that. It's sad when both men and woman think of the two as the same thing.

For instance, before I lost my V card when I was young I used to think this was true, until after my first time. Then it was quite obvious that they were nothing alike. Years later I think of this and think "what a [email protected]". :lol: Oh to be young. 

Anyway, 2 cents given.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Some men substitute porn for their wives, you can see how that would be a problem right? Also some young men confuse porn for what real sex is, which also affects them by the way. Who can compete with camera tricks and men who hit the well endowed lottery. Basically sometimes there is a very good reason for being pissed off about it.


Porn can be used differently.
I watch porn often but never(well almost never) masturbate to conclusion. I use porn, Viagra, testosterone cream and wine to get my 55 year old Willy Johnson in tip top working order.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> This above is the main issue. We have seen several threads here brought up by women about their husband's who show little interest in sex yet always find time to whack off to porn. That doesn't exactly send the best message across.


We've also seen several where the man is good in every other way imaginable and this is his one vice. Still they talk about divorce as the only option.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Good Guy said:


> Yes of course. I'm talking about relationships where the man is more than willing to have sex with his wife (i.e. the vast majority of them).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, I was not advocating, you asked so I gave you some reasons why I think this is. 

I do think if someones wife has a problem with it it's up to you to get her on board or decided what you are going to do. It is absolutely wrong to hide it, and then if you get caught you have real problems. Hiding personal things in marriage makes for a bad marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Good Guy said:


> We've also seen several where the man is good in every other way imaginable and this is his one vice. Still they talk about divorce as the only option.


In that case they just married wrong. Seems like a waste in my opinion but everyone is entitled to their boundaries. Better to talk about these things before you get married.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I agree, however there are women and men who basically assume any porn use is cheating. I also think this is the other extreme. Also some of that comes from insecurity.
> 
> To me porn is nothing at all like sex. The only similarities are you use the same parts. Sex is a very intimate experience you share with someone. Porn is more like brushing your teeth or something. Not much more meaning then that. It's sad when both men and woman think of the two as the same thing.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. That's what I was getting at with the original question - not about freaks who are addicted to porn over their wives and all else. That's a different matter. I'm talking about the type that the husband is caught "again" after 2 years of not using porn. I mean, seriously, I think someone like that isn't capable of an adult relationship. If I were that husband, that would make me want porn more, as there would be a "naughty" element to it annoying my prudish wife!

They really must be projecting - they must be furiously comparing their husband to the fit gym instructor each time they use their vibrator when their husband isn't around. I'm probably being judgemental here.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> I can't speak across the board for wives who don't approve of porn. I'm totally fine with it, as long as my partner isn't using it as a substitute for me, or neglecting me in favor of using the porn.
> 
> But my mom... is dead-set against it. And the list of why's is a mile long:
> 
> ...


Great post, your Dad did a good job.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Good Guy said:


> They really must be projecting - they must be furiously comparing their husband to the fit gym instructor each time they use their vibrator when their husband isn't around. I'm probably being judgemental here.


I think you a being a little judgemental. That's not to say that your example isn't possible, though.

She might just take it as a statement about her sexiness, as if she is not desirable.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Good Guy said:


> We've also seen several where the man is good in every other way imaginable and this is his one vice. Still they talk about divorce as the only option.


This makes me sad. They have an otherwise amazing marriage, but divorce is the only option? What about don't ask, don't tell? He pretends not to use porn, and she pretends to believe him. Make it work, people!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

I'm not necessarily against porn but that's probably because my husband rarely watches it. It's usually limited to when I'm out of town for a few days. I would absolutely have issues with it if he was looking at it every week. On the other hand, I have no issues with him reading erotica. At least then, he's got use his imagination to create the characters in his head. They aren't real people. 

Funny enough, I asked my husband once how he would feel if I masturbated to bbc/bwc porn regularly. He said it would make him feel inadequate, like I was secretly wanting something that he's not. That's exactly how I see it.

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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Great post, your Dad did a good job.


My dad is awesome. My mom, not so much :/


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Lila said:


> I'm not necessarily against porn but that's probably because my husband rarely watches it. It's usually limited to when I'm out of town for a few days. I would absolutely have issues with it if he was looking at it every week. On the other hand, I have no issues with him reading erotica. At least then, he's got use his imagination to create the characters in his head. They aren't real people.
> 
> Funny enough, I asked my husband once how he would feel if I masturbated to bbc/bwc porn regularly. He said it would make him feel inadequate, like I was secretly wanting something that he's not. That's exactly how I see it.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


So, you guys have pretty similar views on the stuff. That's good.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> So, you guys have pretty similar views on the stuff. That's good.


We are but were he to change, I would not put up with it. We'd divorce due to incompatibility. 

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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

I view porn like alcohol consumption.

Person "A" drinks every day, becomes an alcoholic and destroys himself and his family.

Person "B" drinks every day, one glass. In fact, his doctor TOLD him to do so after his heart attack.

Both person A and B drink alcohol. Just because person A ruined his life, we should not automatically assume person B will do the same.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Where it gets "interesting" is a situation where one person uses porn for "relief", in part b/c of a poor sexual relationship with their SO. An example would be someone getting pissed their SO uses porn yet shows very little interest in maintaining a sexual relationship (whether due to drive mismatch, religious beliefs, etc...)


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> I'm not necessarily against porn but that's probably because my husband rarely watches it. It's usually limited to when I'm out of town for a few days. I would absolutely have issues with it if he was looking at it every week. On the other hand, I have no issues with him reading erotica. At least then, he's got use his imagination to create the characters in his head. They aren't real people.
> 
> Funny enough, I asked my husband once how he would feel if I masturbated to bbc/bwc porn regularly. He said it would make him feel inadequate, like I was secretly wanting something that he's not. That's exactly how I see it.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I would say I feel the same way. If one person is out of town you aren't really replacing anything. I have to think though that for some (many?) using porn is in some way taking sexual energy away from their SO. I know if I took care of myself watching porn, I would have a lot less interest in initiating anything with my W that day, so it would have a very clear impact.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> Where it gets "interesting" is a situation where one person uses porn for "relief", in part b/c of a poor sexual relationship with their SO. An example would be someone getting pissed their SO uses porn yet shows very little interest in maintaining a sexual relationship (whether due to drive mismatch, religious beliefs, etc...)


badsanta's post regarding "Maybe if you didn't use porn you'd be more apt to fix the problem of why you'd want to use porn in the first place" is a heck of a counter argument, I have to admit.

Turns it around from "why do you use porn?" into "What is stopping you from fixing the reason why you use porn in the first place?" (at least for me).


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> But with my mother, I think it's also about control. She wants to control everyone and everything around her, and she can be very manipulative. She loves using shame as a weapon to control people.


But @FeministInPink if only she knew that her contributions to porn's "forbidden" aspect was likely what made your father enjoy it the most! 

_You should be ashamed of yourself!_ = OMG..OMG..OMG!!!! (otherwise a nice kick of adrenaline is one of the more challenging aspects of self arousal to achieve)

Had she said, come on over let's watch it together while I finish this cross stitch pattern, it would have become mundane and boring for what it actually is for the most part since most is faked.

Badsanta


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

toblerone said:


> badsanta's post regarding "Maybe if you didn't use porn you'd be more apt to fix the problem of why you'd want to use porn in the first place" is a heck of a counter argument, I have to admit.
> 
> Turns it around from "why do you use porn?" into "What is stopping you from fixing the reason why you use porn in the first place?" (at least for me).


Very true. Or you could argue, "I wouldn't use porn if you actually showed interest in a sex life", which then turns it around to the other person being the reason for the porn use (maybe drive mismatch or other).


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

badsanta said:


> But @FeministInPink if only she knew that her contributions to porn's "forbidden" aspect was likely what made your father enjoy it the most!
> 
> _You should be ashamed of yourself!_ = OMG..OMG..OMG!!!! (otherwise a nice kick of adrenaline is one of the more challenging aspects of self arousal to achieve)
> 
> ...


OMG, I know!!! The thought HAS occurred to me...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If porn use reduces interest in having sex with your spouse, that's a real problem - IF, of course, your spouse actually wants to have sex with you. My view is that if that kind of problem does not result, then if someone wants to use porn, they have that right. No one should dictate what you do with your own body and mind - aside from any mutual agreement you have made. We hear "Women's bodies, women's choice," about everything these days. Guess what? That applies to men, too. I also think that if a woman has body image issues, that is her issue to deal with - her husband's porn use has nothing to do with it, as has been confirmed by research. Of course, he needn't flaunt it, and should be genuinely supportive, and she shouldn't pry - it's really not her business (or vice versa), IMO.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

I don't think I'd feel inadequate if I caught my wife using porn. It'd probably be the type of porn where people complain all the time since that's what it seems she gets off on these days.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> I'm not necessarily against porn but that's probably because my husband rarely watches it. It's usually limited to when I'm out of town for a few days. I would absolutely have issues with it if he was looking at it every week. On the other hand, I have no issues with him reading erotica. At least then, he's got use his imagination to create the characters in his head. They aren't real people.
> 
> Funny enough, I asked my husband once how he would feel if I masturbated to bbc/bwc porn regularly. He said it would make him feel inadequate, like I was secretly wanting something that he's not. That's exactly how I see it.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


OK so what if it is virtual reality CGI porn, which is a thing and is going to be a big thing in the future as graphics and virtual reality become more and more realistic. Those aren't real people?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

sokillme said:


> OK so what if it is virtual reality CGI porn, which is a thing and is going to be a big thing in the future as graphics and virtual reality become more and more realistic. Those aren't real people?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

toblerone said:


> I don't think I'd feel inadequate if I caught my wife using porn. It'd probably be the type of porn where people complain all the time since that's what it seems she gets off on these days.


Yeah, I guess it is probably as much dependent on the person, the type of porn, the circumstances, etc... I would imagine that if my W showed little interest in sex and/or constantly rejected me, but then I catch her watching porn, there would be a part of me that would feel inadequate (would be hard not to).


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


>



And this picture here is proof that vr porn is going to be a big old wet fart except for the most desperate basement dwellers.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> OK so what if it is virtual reality CGI porn, which is a thing and is going to be a big thing in the future as graphics and virtual reality become more and more realistic. Those aren't real people?


It wouldn't change my opinion but I'll ask him if he'd mind me watching big c0ck CGI porn.

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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

toblerone said:


> And this picture here is proof that vr porn is going to be a big old wet fart except for the most desperate basement dwellers.


Sure . Scoff if you want but sex has driven every new technology for the last 100 years. Movies, VHS, DVD, internet. VR porn will be no exception. VR porn will account for at least 50% of all of it's use. Just like porn is 50% of the internet. It's human nature. 

Now the butt doll thing may not, but after VR porn comes robots. Maybe not for our generation but it's coming (no pun intended).


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

sokillme said:


> Sure . Scoff if you want but sex has driven every new technology for the last 100 years. Movies, VHS, DVD, internet. VR porn will be no exception. VR porn will account for at least 50% of all of it's use. Just like porn is 50% of the internet. It's human nature.
> 
> Now the butt doll thing may not, but after VR porn comes robots. Maybe not for our generation but it's coming (no pun intended).


IIRC the two biggest industries that gained by the internet were gambling and porn. 

I believe such robots actually came into existence (no pun intended lol) recently. I forget where (maybe in Asia) but I was reading an article about. I do believe that VR porn (along with whatever "peripherals" created) will become big (whether that is a good or bad thing, I guess only time will tell).

You actually don't even need a full sized doll ...


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## Hellomynameis (Dec 16, 2016)

I hate porn because in college we were shown movies in one of my sociology classes about the back side of the porn industry. Anyone who honestly thinks most porn actresses WANT to be doing it is sadly mistaken. Most of them are forced through fear, intimidation, extreme poverty, or addiction. And despite the illegality, many of them ARE under 18.

Why would any decent person want to support that? Whenever I hear a guy ask what is wrong with porn I want to ask him how he would feel if his own daughter somehow got trapped in that kind of life.

I also believe it teaches boys and young men to objectify women which is obviously not healthy and isn't going to lead to appropriate sexual behavior within a relationship.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hellomynameis said:


> I hate porn because in college we were shown movies in one of my sociology classes about the back side of the porn industry. Anyone who honestly thinks most porn actresses WANT to be doing it is sadly mistaken. Most of them are forced through fear, intimidation, extreme poverty, or addiction. And despite the illegality, many of them ARE under 18.


Then you should celebrate CGI porn and support it because no real people are used in making it.

Lots of woman like porn, lots of woman like to be objectified. Just saying.


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## hifromme67 (Oct 30, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Then you should celebrate CGI porn and support it because no real people are used in making it.
> 
> Lots of woman like porn, lots of woman like to be objectified. Just saying.





Just disgusting. 


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Hellomynameis said:


> I hate porn because in college we were shown movies in one of my sociology classes about the back side of the porn industry. Anyone who honestly thinks most porn actresses WANT to be doing it is sadly mistaken. Most of them are forced through fear, intimidation, extreme poverty, or addiction. And despite the illegality, many of them ARE under 18.
> 
> Why would any decent person want to support that? Whenever I hear a guy ask what is wrong with porn I want to ask him how he would feel if his own daughter somehow got trapped in that kind of life.
> 
> I also believe it teaches boys and young men to objectify women which is obviously not healthy and isn't going to lead to appropriate sexual behavior within a relationship.


Unfortunately that has changed and there are performers both male and female that enjoy their work in the sex industry.

For some performers in the LGBTQIA community, they feel that their work in the adult film industry gives other LGBTQIA the confidence to cope with who they really are, stop feeling ashamed, and move towards being accepted by society. 

It is very SAD that the film you were shown in college was likely funded by a political agenda to instill fear, shame, and hatred about pornography. Yes there are problems with both porn and the porn industry, but I could also sit you down and show you how charitable organizations such as the Red Cross cause more harm than good by subduing those that would otherwise be called into action by thinking, "hey the Red Cross is taking care of this, no need for me to worry."

Officials respond to Haiti Red Cross scandal - CNN.com

I could instill the same fear, shame, and hatred in you about these organizations as well, but here is my point, WHY WOULD I DO THAT? Odds are I would have some politically funded agenda manipulating what I teach to you!

As much as I dislike a lot about porn, it has positive aspects as well. But this thread is not about that. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> *In that case they just married wrong. * Seems like a waste in my opinion but everyone is entitled to their boundaries. *Better to talk about these things before you get married.*



Porn use is an issue of compatibility that needs be discussed _before_ marriage. Unfortunately, unlike religion, lifestyle, family life, etc...it's not typically discussed. I don't understand why anyone would hide their porn use/habit from a potential lifelong partner but it only causes trouble in the long run. 


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

My first question when porn discussions come up is often whether one who uses porn would be ok with their daughter doing it, assuming it's what she wanted. 

If so at least they're consistent.

All porn actresses are someone's daughter, so if it's ok for you to get off to their daughter it should be ok for them to get off to your daughter. 

But if you watch porn and would be unhappy with your daughter doing it you should think about that. 

I have sons and would be unhappy if they did porn.

But I don't watch it. I have in the past but it doesn't do much for me.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There is some porn produced under abusive conditions and that is bad. Other porn is produced by actors /actresses who are happy with their careers - and sometimes very well paid.

There is a lot of homemade porn that people produce and distribute for free - presumably out of some exhibitionist kink. I have no problem at all with this as a way for voyeurs and exhibitionists to make each other happy. 




Hellomynameis said:


> I hate porn because in college we were shown movies in one of my sociology classes about the back side of the porn industry. Anyone who honestly thinks most porn actresses WANT to be doing it is sadly mistaken. Most of them are forced through fear, intimidation, extreme poverty, or addiction. And despite the illegality, many of them ARE under 18.
> 
> Why would any decent person want to support that? Whenever I hear a guy ask what is wrong with porn I want to ask him how he would feel if his own daughter somehow got trapped in that kind of life.
> 
> I also believe it teaches boys and young men to objectify women which is obviously not healthy and isn't going to lead to appropriate sexual behavior within a relationship.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I see porn as equivalent to sexy toys.

1) Used together as a couple - fine.

2) Used when not in a relationship - fine unless the use becomes excessive to the point of interfering with the rest of life, or becomes addictive (eg, you want to stop but can't).

3) Used individually in a relationship: I think its fine as long as it does not interfere with your sex life with your partner. Generally that means never turning your partner down for sex and then using porn (or masturbating in any fashion). It also means understanding the difference between fantasy and reality and not expecting "porn sex" to be always a realistic depiction of good sex in real life

An exception to #3 is if your partner is fundamentally selfish in bed and unwilling to try to please you, then I think it is OK to use porn rather than have sex with a selfish lover

A caveat to #3 is that if your partner regularly turns you down for sex, AND you have made serous attempts to both be a good lover and to fix other relationship issues, its find to use as much porn as you like.

Another caveat to #3 is that (especially for men), if you use porn, and then your partner wants sex, you should do your best to please them whatever way you can, even if you are no longer in the mood.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> All porn actresses are someone's daughter, so if it's ok for you to get off to their daughter it should be ok for them to get off to your daughter.


This logic doesn't pan out to me. All women are someone's daughter. If I want to have sex with them, it doesn't mean I want to have sex with my own daughter.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

toblerone said:


> This logic doesn't pan out to me. All women are someone's daughter. If I want to have sex with them, it doesn't mean I want to have sex with my own daughter.


. 

I know you don't want your own daughter and have no idea how you got that out of my comment. 

I'm saying that if you use porn and thus are ok getting off to someone else's daughter then you shouldn't have any issue with your daughter doing porn and another guy getting off to her.

Because as you said all women are someone's daughter.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Haha, that's what I get for reading it way too fast. I totally read that one wrong. I thought you said if you get off to porn of someone's daughter it means that you want to get off to your own daughter. Oh well.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> Porn use is an issue of compatibility that needs be discussed _before_ marriage. Unfortunately, unlike religion, lifestyle, family life, etc...it's not typically discussed. I don't understand why anyone would hide their porn use/habit from a potential lifelong partner but it only causes trouble in the long run.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I would say this is definitely a bigger issue now given the ease in which porn is accessed. Growing up, porn for me was hopefully being able to see a boobie through a scrambled Spice channel. Not to say that young guys didn't have access to or watch porn, but I don't recall a lot of the guys I knew doing so with any sort of frequency except maybe passing around an old VHS tape. For myself and others I knew, it wasn't something to discuss prior to marriage b/c there wasn't anything really to discuss. 

So I guess looking at things now, figures that a larger majority of younger people are accessing porn, what exactly constitutes a porn habit? Is watching an occasional porn considered a habit? I wouldn't be surprised as well if many porn "habits" develop during the relationship.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

toblerone said:


> Haha, that's what I get for reading it way too fast. I totally read that one wrong. I thought you said if you get off to porn of someone's daughter it means that you want to get off to your own daughter. Oh well.


No worries!

Tbh I was a little disturbed by the thought, but I've read things too fast as well.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I would say this is definitely a bigger issue now given the ease in which porn is accessed. Growing up, porn for me was hopefully being able to see a boobie through a scrambled Spice channel. Not to say that young guys didn't have access to or watch porn, but I don't recall a lot of the guys I knew doing so with any sort of frequency except maybe passing around an old VHS tape. For myself and others I knew, it wasn't something to discuss prior to marriage b/c there wasn't anything really to discuss.


You're right about it being more of a generational issue. Unfortunately our generation and older are the ones struggling with the porn incompatibility because of ease of access. The anti-porn spouse has to make the hard decision to endure something they disagree with or divorce; and the porn friendly spouse has to make the hard decision to cease doing something they enjoy or divorce. 

Hopefully, threads like the ones referenced in the OP will be a thing of the past in the near future. 



EllisRedding said:


> So I guess looking at things now, figures that a larger majority of younger people are accessing porn, what exactly constitutes a porn habit? Is watching an occasional porn considered a habit? *I wouldn't be surprised as well if many porn "habits" develop during the relationship.*


To say that porn 'habits' develop during a relationship is exclusively an older generation issue. For the younger generation, porn habits develop well before men are involved in partnered relationships.

I read several reddit forums where young men ask for advice and porn is a hot topic issue. Many young adult men are experiencing problems (sexual and relationship) from over use. They complain about E.D., either can't get an erection or can't orgasm. They carry these problems with them into their relationships, which causes relationship issues, which causes them to revert back to relying on porn....wash, rinse, repeat. It's a vicious cycle.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> My first question when porn discussions come up is often whether one who uses porn would be ok with their daughter doing it, assuming it's what she wanted.


A HUGE PROBLEM with your question @lifeistooshort is that it takes advantage of the fact that all parents and children are naturally awkward an unaccepting of each other's sexuality as it is instinctually incestious to even consider. 
@lifeistooshort would you be OK with your daughter and her newlywed husband watching a very private sex tape that you and her father made together with the utmost respect and care towards sexuality as a way to demonstrate what physical intimacy should look like in a loving marriage? The idea should evoke your natural instincts to avoid incest and think, "this would be a horrible idea and there should even be a law making this illegal!" 

*So it is NOT FAIR to use an individual's natural instincts against incest as a way to prove porn is wrong!*

There are SO MANY other ways to prove there are problems with porn, but in my opinion this is the absolute worst because it is instilled with so much manipulative shame and fear! 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## heartbroken50 (Aug 9, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I see porn as equivalent to sexy toys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well put!

I also think it's a matter of incompatibility. I have friends that feel that way about porn... some with great sex lives, a couple in sexless marriages. 

I never thought much about porn until I met my H. I had taken a women's studies class at college and was a bit guarded about it, plus I had some abuse from childhood that made anything sexual frightening for a long time.

My H introduced me to porn since I'd never seen any before. I'd come across my dad's Playboy stash, but that was it. The first one we watched I laughed through most of it. It was the classic Deep Throat. 

I guess I passed the test by not being horrified by it, so every so often we would watch again. Not all the time, but once in a while. We had similar preferences, and it actually helped increase our creativity and made me realize I was bi curious. 

Ideally, I think it's best used together. We would rarely watch solo unless separated for some reason, but it wouldn't bother me unless I was in the mood and he'd chosen porn over me.




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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> A HUGE PROBLEM with your question @lifeistooshort is that it takes advantage of the fact that all parents and children are naturally awkward an unaccepting of each other's sexuality as it is instinctually incestious to even consider.
> 
> @lifeistooshort would you be OK with your daughter and her newlywed husband watching a very private sex tape that you and her father made together with the utmost respect and care towards sexuality as a way to demonstrate what physical intimacy should look like in a loving marriage? The idea should evoke your natural instincts to avoid incest and think, "this would be a horrible idea and there should even be a law making this illegal!"
> 
> ...



I don't think that's what @LifesTooShort is saying. It has nothing to do with incest and everything to do with 'what's good for the goose is good for the gander'. 

The way I read it was if it's okay for you (collective you) to watch another man's child perform in a porn movie, then it should be okay for your (collective your) child to perform in a porn movie for the viewing pleasure of another man.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Lila said:


> I read several reddit forums where young men ask for advice and porn is a hot topic issue. Many young adult men are experiencing problems (sexual and relationship) from over use. They complain about E.D., either can't get an erection or can't orgasm. They carry these problems with them into their relationships, which causes relationship issues, which causes them to revert back to relying on porn....wash, rinse, repeat. It's a vicious cycle.


Lila, you don't happen to have any links for this, do you?

My current partner, while not a young man (he's 48) came to rely very heavily on porn since he split from his XW 7 yrs ago. I'm his first partner since they split, and he has been having some E.D. issues (ittermitently) with me, which he never had previously. I'm beginning to think it may be something along the lines of what you describe above.

I've handling it the best that I can, but it has put a lot of emotional strain on this HD gal. It's difficult for me, especially after enduring several years of a sexless marriage.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

badsanta said:


> A HUGE PROBLEM with your question @lifeistooshort is that it takes advantage of the fact that all parents and children are naturally awkward an unaccepting of each other's sexuality as it is instinctually incestious to even consider.
> 
> @lifeistooshort would you be OK with your daughter and her newlywed husband watching a very private sex tape that you and her father made together with the utmost respect and care towards sexuality as a way to demonstrate what physical intimacy should look like in a loving marriage? The idea should evoke your natural instincts to avoid incest and think, "this would be a horrible idea and there should even be a law making this illegal!"
> 
> ...


I disagree. I'm getting at the tendency of people to have two sets of standards, one for them and one for everyone else, where ethically and morally questionable activities are concerned.

The same could be applied to, let's say, drug dealers. Let's say you have a guy, or gal, who smokes weed and sees nothing wrong with it. They buy from a dealer even though they know that drug dealing is a questionable lifestyle.

Now their kids wants to be a dealer. For the sake of discussion we'll ignore the legal aspects of this.....what are the odds said person would be ok with their kids dealing drugs and living that lifestyle?

Maybe some wound be but not many. 

What you call shame I call facing double standards. I'm not advocating either way for porn acceptance, only that one's double standard be evaluated.

If you're going to allow shame to help you dodge facing an issue then everyone raised in a religious house and is shamed by sex shouldn't have to deal with it. And by your logic anytime your wife calls you "daddy" in the bedroom that should invoke your natural feelings of disgust toward incest.

Does it? Probably not, because you can distinguish that from actual incest.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't want my husband using porn. That's because when I WAS ok with it (or, rather, just ignored the fact he used it), it led to a whole host of other problems and he ended up cheating. He's sex addicted, so for him it's a huge no no.

Porn has been around for thousands of years and it isn't going anywhere soon. It meets a demand and makes lots of people lots of money. It's also been largely ignored by the church over the centuries, other than declarations of eternal damnation if you do it, so it's always been one of those things that everyone knows that lots of people do but no one ever talks about it. Kind of like having mistresses, or priests doing altar boys. The ostrich reaction. It's only in the last hundred or couple of hundred years since we've had printed magazines, and now of course the internet, that wives have been forced to even think about their husbands indulging themselves in this manner, and with the internet it's becoming almost impossible to ignore. So it isn't something that most couples discuss openly, and when a wife find the browsing history she feels as betrayed as if he cheated, hence the divorce proclamation.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> I don't think that's what @LifesTooShort is saying. It has nothing to do with incest and everything to do with 'what's good for the goose is good for the gander'.
> 
> *The way I read it was if it's okay for you (collective you) to watch another man's child perform in a porn movie, then it should be okay for your (collective your) child to perform in a porn movie for the viewing pleasure of another man.*


I really fail to follow this logic if it is that at all. 

I am a police officer and damn proud of it, I would never want my daughters to be one. I was in the military and was damn proud of that, I would never want my daughters to join.

I go frequently out to eat and served by female wait staff, I would prefer my daughters set their sights higher. The list goes on.

I do look at porn and no I wouldn't want my daughters to do that either. I recognize they will be sexual creatures one day and that They will make their own choices in life. If they did porn I wouldn't like it but still my daughters they would be. Doesn't mean I am ok with it.

So by this "logic" any woman who has ever seen a chippendale show has to be ok with their sons becoming one?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> Lila, you don't happen to have any links for this, do you?
> 
> My current partner, while not a young man (he's 48) came to rely very heavily on porn since he split from his XW 7 yrs ago. I'm his first partner since they split, and he has been having some E.D. issues (ittermitently) with me, which he never had previously. I'm beginning to think it may be something along the lines of what you describe above.


Let me look for the link of the reddit support forum. It's made up mostly of 18 - 29 year old guys who are having problems dating. It's sad to read how some of these guys didn't have their first sexual orgasm with a partner until after dating them for OVER A YEAR.

There is one 'self-help' website they reference often....yourbrainonporn. 



FeministInPink said:


> I've handling it the best that I can, but it has put a lot of emotional strain on this HD gal. It's difficult for me, especially after enduring several years of a sexless marriage.


FIP, I empathize with your situation. My husband (40) has been struggling with ED (performance anxiety) for years now. I have a very loooong thread in private talking about our struggles with it. It's been a challenge all of the way around.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Double standards exist everywhere. I love watching football, but not in a million years would I want my boys to play professionally and suffer the kind of head injuries that happen. That's a total double standard that I am perfectly OK with because the guys that do play know the risks and choose to play anyway because they make millions doing so.

Most (not all, I know) of the women doing porn know what they're doing and that many consider it wrong and do it anyway because of the money. Same with dealing drugs. Some people are going to choose it despite the drawbacks because it pays. Some won't. The ones who won't we hope have higher morals, and I hope my kids are of that type and not the former type. Just like everyone hopes their kids are better than 'other' kids.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Lila said:


> Let me look for the link of the reddit support forum. It's made up mostly of 18 - 29 year old guys who are having problems dating. It's sad to read how some of these guys didn't have their first sexual orgasm with a partner until after dating them for OVER A YEAR.
> 
> There is one 'self-help' website they reference often....yourbrainonporn.
> 
> ...


Thanks. My partner has never orgasmed with me, though he's come close a few times. This has always been an issue for him, however--For pretty much his entire sexual history. And this part, I'm ok with, I understand... he says that I've handled it much better than any woman he's ever been with.

But the E.D. issue is new. He's attributing it to age and weight gain (he's at his heaviest right now, and he's not happy about it), and while I'm sure those may be a contributing factor, I'm not convinced that's all there is. 

I'm going to look for your thread, because I think performance anxiety may also have something to do with it.

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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> Thanks. My partner has never orgasmed with me, though he's come close a few times. This has always been an issue for him, however--For pretty much his entire sexual history. And this part, I'm ok with, I understand... he says that I've handled it much better than any woman he's ever been with.
> 
> But the E.D. issue is new. He's attributing it to age and weight gain (he's at his heaviest right now, and he's not happy about it), and while I'm sure those may be a contributing factor, I'm not convinced that's all there is.
> 
> ...


The ED can come from all of those, and the performance anxiety just makes it all worse. 

When he can't orgasm with you: is he holding back from having one too early? Is he really concentrating on getting the best angle and feel?

If he is holding back from having an orgasm too early, try encouraging him to two-pump chump his first go around, and if he stays erect or can get it back up: it could take the pressure off and less likely he'd have another quick one.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Lila said:


> I'm not necessarily against porn but that's probably because my husband rarely watches it. It's usually limited to when I'm out of town for a few days. I would absolutely have issues with it if he was looking at it every week. On the other hand, I have no issues with him reading erotica. At least then, he's got use his imagination to create the characters in his head. They aren't real people.
> 
> Funny enough, I asked my husband once how he would feel if I masturbated to bbc/bwc porn regularly. He said it would make him feel inadequate, like I was secretly wanting something that he's not. That's exactly how I see it.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk



@Lila let's get back to this. What would you be wearing and how would you get off while watching this bbc/bwc porn?

If you describe it really well, with lots of details, I can skip watching a little porn tonight to raise my 50+ libido. JK. Ok maybe not 


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

To me, talking generally about porn is like talking about guns or Trump or Hillary. 

Mostly mental masturbation.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> I really fail to follow this logic if it is that at all.
> 
> I am a police officer and damn proud of it, I would never want my daughters to be one. I was in the military and was damn proud of that, I would never want my daughters to join.
> 
> I go frequently out to eat and served by female wait staff, I would prefer my daughters set their sights higher. The list goes on.


In order to make this kind of analogy, then you need to compare apples to apples. I don't think many people consider a career in law enforcement or food service as morally questionable.



Wolf1974 said:


> I do look at porn and no I wouldn't want my daughters to do that either. I recognize they will be sexual creatures one day and that They will make their own choices in life. If they did porn I wouldn't like it but still my daughters they would be. Doesn't mean I am ok with it.
> 
> *So by this "logic" any woman who has ever seen a chippendale show has to be ok with their sons becoming one*?


My point is that if someone is going to indulge in morally questionable activities, then it shouldn't be all that awful if one of their own goes into that morally questionable industry.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

toblerone said:


> The ED can come from all of those, and the performance anxiety just makes it all worse.
> 
> When he can't orgasm with you: is he holding back from having one too early? Is he really concentrating on getting the best angle and feel?
> 
> If he is holding back from having an orgasm too early, try encouraging him to two-pump chump his first go around, and if he stays erect or can get it back up: it could take the pressure off and less likely he'd have another quick one.


No, he's not holding back, not at all. He WANTS to. Very badly. It is very, very difficult for him to orgasm. There have been instances when I've watched him masturbate and it's taken him over an hour to climax. And it's not because I'm watching him--being watched is a turn on for him. If I hadn't been watching, he might not have climaxed at all in those instances.

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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

badsanta said:


> A HUGE PROBLEM with your question @lifeistooshort is that it takes advantage of the fact that all parents and children are naturally awkward an unaccepting of each other's sexuality as it is instinctually incestious to even consider.
> 
> @lifeistooshort would you be OK with your daughter and her newlywed husband watching a very private sex tape that you and her father made together with the utmost respect and care towards sexuality as a way to demonstrate what physical intimacy should look like in a loving marriage? The idea should evoke your natural instincts to avoid incest and think, "this would be a horrible idea and there should even be a law making this illegal!"
> 
> ...





TheTruthHurts said:


> To me, talking generally about porn is like talking about guns or Trump or Hillary.
> 
> *Mostly mental masturbation.*
> 
> ...



OMG! My father used to use that same expression and it was always hilarious.

Thank you for the memory


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Lila said:


> In order to make this kind of analogy, then you need to compare apples to apples. I don't think many people consider a career in law enforcement or food service as morally questionable.
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that if someone is going to indulge in morally questionable activities, then it shouldn't be all that awful if one of their own goes into that morally questionable industry.


I agree. Not only that, but if one's daughter was a police officer or a waitress people generally wouldn't feel embarrassed telling others even if it's not what they really wanted for them. 

Would most people feel as comfortable sharing that their daughter did porn?

Probably not, so it's not am apples and apples comparison, as you pointed out.

As I've said I really don't care who does porn or who watches it. I have a friend I've known for many years who has her own porn site and I could care less.....she does it of her own free will and it keeps her off welfare.

But I knew her father when he was alive and he would not have approved, and he would've been perfectly happy to tell people she worked at McDonalds even if he'd hoped for more for her.

He would've been mortified to tell people his daughter worked in porn.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Some parents are embarrassed to tell people their kid works in retail. Some are embarrassed by them going to the 'wrong' college. That isn't the point. The point is that the people IN whatever 'profession' they're in chose it. Or at least didn't stop doing it when they found themselves doing it despite the fact it's morally questionable or dangerous or whatever. So if I am buying pot from my neighbour that's because he knows perfectly well what he's doing and does it for the money. Period. It's the almighty dollar that motivates drug dealers or football players or porn stars.

Everyone has lofty hopes and dreams for their own kids. Moral considerations just up the dollar value paid to the 'performers', that's all, not make it any worse for a parent to indulge themselves in an 'immoral' activity that they wouldn't want their kid to do. Which is subjective in a lot of cases anyway. 

As a parent we can choose NOT to support our childrens questionable choices by buying our pot from someone other than our son, or watching porn starring someone other than our daughter.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@FeministInPink has he had his prostate examined? Maybe ultrasound the plumbing? Could there be physical obstructions? I don't know if BPH - a common issue - can hurt things. I know with mine I find myself awkwardly in suspense after I think I've ejaculated - and when I look I see it is delayed. I assume it is the BPH blocking the tubing to a small degree (very slight but definitely noticeable delay). I guess it's involuntary edging  


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @FeministInPink has he had his prostate examined? Maybe ultrasound the plumbing? Could there be physical obstructions? I don't know if BPH - a common issue - can hurt things. I know with mine I find myself awkwardly in suspense after I think I've ejaculated - and when I look I see it is delayed. I assume it is the BPH blocking the tubing to a small degree (very slight but definitely noticeable delay). I guess it's involuntary edging
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I couldn't say to any of those questions. What is BPH?

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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @Lila let's get back to this. *What would you be wearing and how would you get off while watching this bbc/bwc porn?*


This cracked me up. Let me ask you, do you put on cologne and aftershave and wear your sexy underwear to wank off? 



TheTruthHurts said:


> If you describe it really well, with lots of details, I can skip watching a little porn tonight to raise my 50+ libido. JK. Ok maybe not


If I described it you'd probably need a double dose of porn to get you going so I'll be nice and refrain 

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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> In order to make this kind of analogy, then you need to compare apples to apples. I don't think many people consider a career in law enforcement or food service as morally questionable.
> 
> I don't consider an actresses in movies who get naked, Hollywood or porn, morally questionable either. As a matter of fact where do you draw the line. Plenty of Hollywood movie depict sex and female nudity or could be considered straight out soft core porn.
> 
> My point is that if someone is going to indulge in morally questionable activities, then it shouldn't be all that awful if one of their own goes into that morally questionable industry.


So let me ask you then have you ever seen a chippendales show or been to a bachelorette party? So you have no problems with your son doing the same then since you participated in it. Ever experiemented with drugs? Are you ok with your kiddos being drug users? 

Guess I don't follow what your getting at? So all things you have done or seen in your life you are ok with your kids being part of? Maybe we just come from very different backgrounds but their are plenty of things I have taken part in, seen, done that I don't want my kids to do.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree. Not only that, but if one's daughter was a police officer or a waitress people generally wouldn't feel embarrassed telling others even if it's not what they really wanted for them.
> 
> Would most people feel as comfortable sharing that their daughter did porn?
> 
> ...


You probably wouldn't say porn you would just say actress. And no I wouldn't feel embarrassed by any choice my adult daughter made but doesn't mean I have to be ok with it either.

Wait I had to add to that. I meant profession. I would be embarrassed if she hurt kids or cheated on her husband or something like that.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

FeministInPink said:


> I couldn't say to any of those questions. What is BPH?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk




BPH - Benign prostatic hyperplasia
Enlarged prostate. As men age the prostate can naturally grow. Sitting in a job over the years can trigger this as well (wish I'd known).

It's not a problem alone but :

"When sufficiently large, the nodules push on and narrow the urethra resulting in an increased resistance to flow of urine from the bladder. This is commonly referred to as "obstruction", although the urethral lumen is no less patent, only compressed. Resistance to urine flow requires the bladder to work harder during voiding, possibly leading to progressive hypertrophy, instability, or weakness (atony) of the bladder muscle. If BPH causes obstruction of the bladder and remains untreated, complications such as recurrent urinary tract infections, bladder stones, and chronic kidney disease (potentially leading to kidney failure) may ensue.[3]". Wikipedia 


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> So let me ask you then have you ever seen a chippendales show or been to a bachelorette party? So you have no problems with your son doing the same then since you participated in it. Ever experiemented with drugs? Are you ok with your kiddos being drug users?


Yes, I've been to make revue shows and have absolutely no problem if my son chose to do that for a living. 

Yes, I've experimented with drugs, alcohol, and cigarettes. I still indulge in marijuana and alcohol. I wouldn't have problems if my son sold either. 



Wolf1974 said:


> Guess I don't follow what your getting at? So all things you have done or seen in your life you are ok with your kids being part of? Maybe we just come from very different backgrounds but their are plenty of things I have taken part in, seen, done that I don't want my kids to do.


I'm not sure how this relates back to what I said about porn but in response to your question......There are things I've done in my life that I deeply regret doing. I don't continue doing them, so no I wouldn't want my child participating in those activities. 



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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> Yes, I've been to make revue shows and have absolutely no problem if my son chose to do that for a living.
> 
> Yes, I've experimented with drugs, alcohol, and cigarettes. I still indulge in marijuana and alcohol. I wouldn't have problems if my son sold either.
> 
> ...


Well thanks for the honest answer. I don't fault you for view I just don't agree or apply it in my life. I once smoked so by what's presented here I would have to be ok with my kids smoking, but I am not. I have lost every grandparent but one and two parents to smoking and cancer which made me quit. I would be through the roof if I ever caught my kiddos with cigarettes. 

I think we all look through the lens of parents and see how we hope our kids will turn out and we just see different things. We will have to agree to disagree on it.:smile2:


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well thanks for the honest answer. I don't fault you for view I just don't agree or apply it in my life. I once smoked so by what's presented here I would have to be ok with my kids smoking, but I am not. I have lost every grandparent but one and two parents to smoking and cancer which made me quit. I would be through the roof if I ever caught my kiddos with cigarettes.
> 
> I think we all look through the lens of parents and see how we hope our kids will turn out and we just see different things. We will have to agree to disagree on it.:smile2:


 I don't know many people who would support their kids doing something they themselves might have done and regretted. I get what you're saying about wanting better for our kids but the 'do as I say, not as I do' is hypocrisy. To use alcohol as an example, it would be hypocritical of me to enjoy going to bars but get upset because my son became a bar tender. If I find bar life so low class for my son maybe I need to stop patronizing bars. 

But I accept that not everyone thinks alike. Agree to disagree. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

So the main theme is the exploitation of women in porn? I'm sure some of them are but by no means all.

How do people who think like this justify buying clothes made by child labor, as most clothes nowadays, even the big brand names, are?

What about anime porn? Are people OK with that? 

The comment about the romance novels not being real people is a silly one - then films like 50 shades are off limits or male strip shows as these are real people?

I still think it's about controlling behaviour. If modern women can do what they want with their bodies and so can I.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Good Guy said:


> So the main theme is the exploitation of women in porn? I'm sure some of them are but by no means all.
> 
> How do people who think like this justify buying clothes made by child labor, as most clothes nowadays, even the big brand names, are?
> 
> ...


 @Good Guy, I don't think anyone has said that men are not entitled to do whatever they want to do with their bodies. You asked a question, Why do women object to porn in marriage, and you've gotten responses. By your last post it sounds like you weren't really interested in listening to the responses. Instead you seem to have the answers and are looking to push your agenda. 

Instead of wasting time asking 'why women are opposed to porn', why didn't you just tell women your opinion on porn and leave it at that? You would have gotten tons of validation and possibly the debate you seek. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Saibasu (Nov 3, 2016)

For me, I'm against porn. Always have been. And my husband has known this from verrryy early on in our relationship. Yes it makes me feel inadequate, like I'm not enough. And simply the fact that porn takes sexual tensions away without needing me makes me feel....... Unecessary for lack of a better word. Despite knowing just how crushing it is to me a few years ago I found out he's basically obsessed with it. We stopped having sex, he would get FRUSTRATED with me DURING sex, like I was competing with some invisible force I could never measure up to. 3 months ago I contacted a divorce lawyer and scared the living **** out of him.

I never deny my husband sex. If he wants it anyway, everyway, every day of the week or more Im always game. And I gladly meet his needs be it sex, BJ, HJ even without reciprocation on every occasion. We are never out of town without each other and we talk about sex and our fantasies openly and freely. 

Despite this, he STILL was doing it and getting literally irritated that I couldn't physically do something a certain way.

This is why I have always been so against porn. Some people are ok with it and good for them. I'm not. I've never told him he isn't ALLOWED to look at porn, but I have told him since day ONE that I refuse to be with someone who does. I don't have to accept any behaviour that causes me intense lasting pain. Yes he's a man and men have "needs" well guess what so do I. I NEED to feel like I am enough.

Everyone who is "shocked" that a woman will divorce a man over porn should be equally as "shocked" that a man would throw his marriage away just so he can continue to beat off into a sock alone, there is no difference. I think it's pathetic and until a couple years ago my husband told me he felt the same way. Not being able to go without porn is just insane. Of course you can, it's not a literal compulsion, and humans can show self control. Then he decided to change the values I though we both shared, lie to me a million times, hide things from me, compare me, blame me, and deny me. This is his last chance, once more and I'm gone.

And no. I can't care about what others think about me and my point of view, I know what I can live with and what I can't. You may not understand it but the pain that I have been through this last little while is heavy enough to physically pick up.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> My first question when porn discussions come up is often whether one who uses porn would be ok with their daughter doing it, assuming it's what she wanted.
> 
> If so at least they're consistent.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't be happy if my sons or daughters went into the gun business doesn't mean I am against guns. So again you have no problem with CGI porn then because there are no real people involved right?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I wouldn't be happy if my sons or daughters went into the gun business doesn't mean I am against guns. So again you have no problem with CGI porn then because there are no real people involved right?


No, under the what's good for the goose is good for the gander principle cgi presents no issues.

There are other reasons I think porn is generally bad for relationships but the issue of someone's daughter or son is not present in cgi.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> No, under the what's good for the goose is good for the gander principle cgi presents no issues.
> 
> There are other reasons I think porn is generally bad for relationships but the issue of someone's daughter or son is not present in cgi.


I don't think performing in porn is the same as looking at porn. I would have no problem with my son or daughter looking at porn, however I would make sure they understand it's not real and it doesn't really present the healthiest of relationships. It just a fantasy. This really is a 20th century problem as now from what I can tell the kids make there own porn. Look at all the cam girls there are. The horse has left the barn at this point. I am hopeful that CGI will at least keep young people from selling their sexuality on a web cam to pay for collage for instance.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> Let me look for the link of the reddit support forum. It's made up mostly of 18 - 29 year old guys who are having problems dating. It's sad to read how some of these guys didn't have their first sexual orgasm with a partner until after dating them for OVER A YEAR.
> 
> There is one 'self-help' website they reference often....yourbrainonporn.
> 
> ...


nofap.

@FeministInPink

This gets into some of the particulars. What's interesting about this is there is no shaming, it's more like "do this to reset your brain to be more healthy". I like their approach,.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> That's a total double standard that I am perfectly OK with because the guys that do play know the risks and choose to play anyway because they make millions doing so.



One in particular that we all know you love and who I hope loses Sunday. >


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> No, he's not holding back, not at all. He WANTS to. Very badly. It is very, very difficult for him to orgasm. There have been instances when I've watched him masturbate and it's taken him over an hour to climax. And it's not because I'm watching him--being watched is a turn on for him. If I hadn't been watching, he might not have climaxed at all in those instances.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


This sounds more medical, though now it could be like a recurring cycle.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Hellomynameis said:


> I hate porn because in college we were shown movies in one of my sociology classes about the back side of the porn industry. Anyone who honestly thinks most porn actresses WANT to be doing it is sadly mistaken. Most of them are forced through fear, intimidation, extreme poverty, or addiction. And despite the illegality, many of them ARE under 18.
> 
> Why would any decent person want to support that? Whenever I hear a guy ask what is wrong with porn I want to ask him how he would feel if his own daughter somehow got trapped in that kind of life.
> 
> I also believe it teaches boys and young men to objectify women which is obviously not healthy and isn't going to lead to appropriate sexual behavior within a relationship.


This. 

It also teaches that we are all disposable...like, when you're done with one ...NEXT! That said, I don't ask my fiance about his views of porn, or if he looks at it. Maybe he does, we don't live together now, but we are together a lot, and our relationship is the best I've ever had, and the chemistry is amazing. But, maybe men don't really view porn because they are lacking chemistry with their partners, they might look at porn because it's an escape from the stress of life. They should be turning to their spouses, but if their everyday life is filled with pressure and stress, porn might be an easy escape. 

We all have vices, my escape might be going for a run, or retail therapy. lol I don't know if I'd leave my fiance over him viewing porn, probably only if it became a substitute for me, and of course if it led to other behaviors, like cheating (which I heard isn't uncommon for men who are frequent porn viewers)


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Saibasu said:


> For me, I'm against porn. Always have been. And my husband has known this from verrryy early on in our relationship. Yes it makes me feel inadequate, like I'm not enough. And simply the fact that porn takes sexual tensions away without needing me makes me feel....... Unecessary for lack of a better word. Despite knowing just how crushing it is to me a few years ago I found out he's basically obsessed with it. We stopped having sex, he would get FRUSTRATED with me DURING sex, like I was competing with some invisible force I could never measure up to. 3 months ago I contacted a divorce lawyer and scared the living **** out of him.
> 
> I never deny my husband sex. If he wants it anyway, everyway, every day of the week or more Im always game. And I gladly meet his needs be it sex, BJ, HJ even without reciprocation on every occasion. We are never out of town without each other and we talk about sex and our fantasies openly and freely.
> 
> ...


I think everything you said here is fair you have a right to expect him to hold to the promises in the marriage. You were honest with him before you married so it's on him.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> This.
> 
> It also teaches that we are all disposable...like, when you're done with one ...NEXT! That said, I don't ask my fiance about his views of porn, or if he looks at it. Maybe he does, we don't live together now, but we are together a lot, and our relationship is the best I've ever had, and the chemistry is amazing. But, maybe men don't really view porn because they are lacking chemistry with their partners, they might look at porn because it's an escape from the stress of life. They should be turning to their spouses, but if their everyday life is filled with pressure and stress, porn might be an easy escape.
> 
> We all have vices, my escape might be going for a run, or retail therapy. lol I don't know if I'd leave my fiance over him viewing porn, probably only if it became a substitute for me, and of course if it led to other behaviors, like cheating (which I heard isn't uncommon for men who are frequent porn viewers)


Here is the thing with this comment, for many men it is really just the same as retail therapy as you say. Lots of women say, turn to me if your are stressed, but then it becomes he is using you to get off, that will get tired really quick. I get that women have problems with it, but it's really not the same as sex, at all assuming your spouse has a healthy attitude about sex. It's not real.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Here is the thing with this comment, for many men it is really just the same as retail therapy as you say. Lots of women say, turn to me if your are stressed, but then it becomes he is using you to get off, that will get tired really quick. I get that women have problems with it, but it's really not the same as sex, at all assuming your spouse has a healthy attitude about sex. It's not real.


Yep, I read this somewhere, that many men use porn as an escape. Like anything though, it can become addictive, and that is when it can ruin marriages. But, for me, I know my worth, and if my fiance were to someday ''choose'' porn over me, or I felt like our sex life was being negatively impacted by his porn use, then I'd probably not want to remain with him. I don't think that all men view porn on a regular or even semi-regular basis, though. That is a myth that is right up there with ''most women want a guy for his money.'' lol


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Good Guy said:


> I got to wondering what is it about watching porn that is the problem?


Does it really represent the best part of ourselves as humans? Is it our best self, our highest nature, that engages in that activity? 

Is it inspiring? Does it lead us to become better people?

There is a reason it is hidden and forbidden for purchase under a certain age, no? 

Would we be proud to have our children know we have looked at it? Is it something we want them to emulate?



> The only reason I use women above is that I never see threads from men about this stuff.


I read once that around 1% of men divorce because their wives watch too much porn. It does not generally seem to bother men. If anything, it may turn them on.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I mostly agree, but the main use of porn is sexual gratification, which can be a stress reliever. People should turn to their spouses, but in some relationships they are frequently turned down when they do, so porn is a poor substitute. 




*Deidre* said:


> This.
> 
> It also teaches that we are all disposable...like, when you're done with one ...NEXT! That said, I don't ask my fiance about his views of porn, or if he looks at it. Maybe he does, we don't live together now, but we are together a lot, and our relationship is the best I've ever had, and the chemistry is amazing. But, maybe men don't really view porn because they are lacking chemistry with their partners, they might look at porn because it's an escape from the stress of life. They should be turning to their spouses, but if their everyday life is filled with pressure and stress, porn might be an easy escape.
> 
> We all have vices, my escape might be going for a run, or retail therapy. lol I don't know if I'd leave my fiance over him viewing porn, probably only if it became a substitute for me, and of course if it led to other behaviors, like cheating (which I heard isn't uncommon for men who are frequent porn viewers)


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I mostly agree, but the main use of porn is sexual gratification, which can be a stress reliever. People should turn to their spouses, but in some relationships they are frequently turned down when they do, so porn is a poor substitute.


This is very true in some cases, but if you are being frequently turned down for sex by your partner I think there are problems in that marriage and lying to you spouse about using porn is not going to help that, it's going to make it worse and probably end your marriage.

I wish my husband had of been a man and told me what he wanted all those years ago instead of going to porn. He would of saved me all this pain and angry. I might have been pissed off with that conversation when it first happened, but when i calmed down i would have made the changes that my husband wanted because I love you him and want him to be happy, and if i wasn't able to make those changes i would have let him go for the same reasons. I know he doesn't want to lose me or break up our family but, he didn't have the right to make that choice, and by lying about the porn he has permantly damaged our relationship. We are working now to get it back but it will never be the same. I will never look at him the same...


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

> Does it really represent the best part of ourselves as humans? Is it our best self, our highest nature, that engages in that activity?
> 
> Is it inspiring? Does it lead us to become better people?


No, but neither does going to the bathroom. 



> There is a reason it is hidden and forbidden for purchase under a certain age, no?
> 
> Would we be proud to have our children know we have looked at it? Is it something we want them to emulate?


My eldest daughter (18) knows I watch porn. We have discussed things like that. Like having a poo it's not something I'm proud of or want her to see but it is necessary (or at least masturbation is) from time to time.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Daisy12 said:


> uhtred said:
> 
> 
> > I mostly agree, but the main use of porn is sexual gratification, which can be a stress reliever. People should turn to their spouses, but in some relationships they are frequently turned down when they do, so porn is a poor substitute.
> ...


I agree 100% with you there about the lying. I never lied about my occasional porn use - we regularly watched Red Shoe Diaries in the past and once even watched a "proper" porn film together, wasn't my wife's thing though.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Porn is real. Real human beings have to do it. For the most part, women's bodies take the brunt of the wear and tear aspect of it.

Link may be *NSFW*

Urban Dictionary: pink sock




> After anal penetration when the males member or device is removed from the anus the inner anal passageway folds out surrounding the extracted shaft and exposing the inner side of the anus. The pink socks appear's like folds of pink skin hangin out of the a$$hole. It slightly resembales a pink sock hangin out of the a$$hole .also known as a pink sh1t


Link may be* NSFW*

Urban Dictionary: rosebud



> an anal prolapse, usually caused by the repeated insertion of oversized objects, such as fists.




Cartoon porn, or CGI porn is much better in that no living humans [or animals  ] were harmed. There may be some real sick ideas presented in CGI or cartoon porn {gang rape, as an example}; but yes, obviously it's much better than using real people.



Yes, it is awful to have your husband/boyfriend prefer porn to you. To compare you to it. And to laugh at you in your face when you tell him how bad it hurts you. These are unforgettable memories.

It was a dream of mine growing up to be in love and to be someone's one and only; and for him to be mine. I know now that is impossible, unrealistic and a lie.

Would you guys be willing to tell your daughters what lies ahead for them when they grow up. When they get old enough to learn about the facts of life; will you give them a heads up, and let them know that they will never be enough for their future husband---and that he'll always want to have a good wank to some other woman?


Porn is not the equivalent of romance novels. Romance novels may have sexy parts; but they are words on a page/screen. No people are involved. There are no images.

And men read "dirty" erotica too. X-rated stuff. But a lot of popular books popular with men are very sexual. Even decades ago "Tropic of Cancer" caused a sensation with it's frank sexuality.

Porn is not the equivalent of a vibrator/d/ldo. 
The equivalent of a vibrator/d/ldo....is a "male masturbator" . Link probably *NSFW*

Page 2 of Realistic Masturbators Adam & Eve



It's interesting to me, that men are confused that their wives don't see sex as a special way of connecting or communicating.

But yet men admit that they compartmentalize sex and that orgasming to porn is "meaningless". So, if orgasming [the highest form of human physical ecstasy], is readily seen as meaningless; why would your wife believe that having sex with her is special? Believe me, it's very easy for your wife to start feeling that she is interchangeable with an image. And I promise you, you don't feel special or desirable when you realize this.

Add in a few unflattering remarks from your husband about your body. Or, sex acts that you really, really don't find enticing or appealing, that he admits he saw in porn. Yeah, it's a real obstruction.

My own sex drive is what has kept me interested in sex. That and attraction to men's bodies. I've had a sense of detachment and mistrust to my husband for decades; because I *know* I am far from his ideal. I am not special.

By the way, how does porn improve the way men see women? How does watching clips/films with titles like, "Horny teen sl.t takes multiple c.ocks up her a.ss", or "Dirty b.tch gets loads of c.um. in her face" etc. etc. etc., make you feel respect, or regard for women. Answer; it doesn't. It's supposed to make you feel the exact opposite.

A couple of years ago, when it became apparent that my husband was not going to do much about his health related ED, I bought a dildo {4-1/2 insertable length}, just to stop feeling physically uncomfortable so often without relief. Clitoral orgasms alone do not fulfill me.

I had washed it and left it by the bathroom sink to dry (we don't have kids). He found it and basically wouldn't talk to me for a couple of days. I couldn't find it and he admitted to throwing it away.

And to think of all those times I pleaded with him to stop using porn, to please turn to me. "This is what guys do", "you have to get used to it"

I know. Porn is the winner. It is more exciting than me. The women are more desirable. I'm long since resigned to that.

But that was my life experience. I think it's a terrible thing.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> I don't think that all men view porn on a regular or even semi-regular basis, though. That is a myth that is right up there with ''most women want a guy for his money.'' lol


There are two types of men, the type that use porn and the type that lie about it. If a man who is married to a wonderful woman in every other way but would divorce him for watching porn, I could see how he could lie about it. As other posters said, it's not something to be proud of.

I can imagine a man with very low T might not use porn, but for the average man, who is not having sex on a regular basis, he uses porn. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/6709646/All-men-watch-porn-scientists-find.html

Also if a wife won't have regular sex with her husband, and he has plenty of offers, and he uses porn, is he a bad person? I've got a friend in this situation, he's good fun, reasonably good looking and very successful, treats his wife great, uses porn regularly. Never cheated even though he's had plenty of opportunities.

He uses porn to STOP him cheating.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Porn is real. Real human beings have to do it. For the most part, women's bodies take the brunt of the wear and tear aspect of it.
> 
> Link may be *NSFW*
> 
> ...


Really that is like any other profession, there are health hazards that should be managed properly. STDs for another.



> Cartoon porn, or CGI porn is much better in that no living humans [or animals  ] were harmed. There may be some real sick ideas presented in CGI or cartoon porn {gang rape, as an example}; but yes, obviously it's much better than using real people.


OK



> Yes, it is awful to have your husband/boyfriend prefer porn to you. To compare you to it. And to laugh at you in your face when you tell him how bad it hurts you. These are unforgettable memories.
> 
> It was a dream of mine growing up to be in love and to be someone's one and only; and for him to be mine. I know now that is impossible, unrealistic and a lie.


I had the same dream - and I also know now it's a lie. Women fall completely and entirely for another man - whereas the porn use is a sexual release which is forgotten about straight after. Which is the bigger lie?



> Would you guys be willing to tell your daughters what lies ahead for them when they grow up. When they get old enough to learn about the facts of life; will you give them a heads up, and let them know that they will never be enough for their future husband---and that he'll always want to have a good wank to some other woman?


Yes, of course. I have done. My daughter has no illusions about men. I wish someone had told me the same about the true nature of women.



> Porn is not the equivalent of romance novels. Romance novels may have sexy parts; but they are words on a page/screen. No people are involved. There are no images.


You are rationalising here big time. Why read them???? The world of a book can be more real and absorbing than a film. You imagine yourself in that situation - otherwise there's no point to it. Anyone who reads a lot knows this. 



> And men read "dirty" erotica too. X-rated stuff. But a lot of popular books popular with men are very sexual. Even decades ago "Tropic of Cancer" caused a sensation with it's frank sexuality.


Yes I've read some. I don't do it anymore because it's much much worse than watching porn. Not only do you get the full sexual details, you also get to feel how the person was enjoying cheating (and it's mostly cheating of one sort or another) or whatever it was they were doing.



> Porn is not the equivalent of a vibrator/d/ldo.
> The equivalent of a vibrator/d/ldo....is a "male masturbator" . Link probably *NSFW*
> 
> Page 2 of Realistic Masturbators Adam & Eve


Would you be OK with your man using that?



> It's interesting to me, that men are confused that their wives don't see sex as a special way of connecting or communicating.
> 
> But yet men admit that they compartmentalize sex and that orgasming to porn is "meaningless". So, if orgasming [the highest form of human physical ecstasy], is readily seen as meaningless; why would your wife believe that having sex with her is special? Believe me, it's very easy for your wife to start feeling that she is interchangeable with an image. And I promise you, you don't feel special or desirable when you realize this.


There's an enormous difference for a man orgasming to porn or masturbating and making love to someone he truly loves. One is like a good pee after holding it in all day while the other is like nothing else on earth,



> Add in a few unflattering remarks from your husband about your body. Or, sex acts that you really, really don't find enticing or appealing, that he admits he saw in porn. Yeah, it's a real obstruction.


This here is the problem. This shows he doesn't love or respect you. I or any decent man would NEVER do this.



> My own sex drive is what has kept me interested in sex. That and attraction to men's bodies. I've had a sense of detachment and mistrust to my husband for decades; because I *know* I am far from his ideal. I am not special.


This is really sad. I think you have never had a man who truly loved you. 



> By the way, how does porn improve the way men see women? How does watching clips/films with titles like, "Horny teen sl.t takes multiple c.ocks up her a.ss", or "Dirty b.tch gets loads of c.um. in her face" etc. etc. etc., make you feel respect, or regard for women. Answer; it doesn't. It's supposed to make you feel the exact opposite.


I actually think a lot of that is because of the shame men feel around sex and porn; and the whole PC world we live in; if it was called instead "Respectful man has loving sex with career driven woman" I'd still watch it, but I'd somehow feel someone was in there manipulating this area of my life too. 



> A couple of years ago, when it became apparent that my husband was not going to do much about his health related ED, I bought a dildo {4-1/2 insertable length}, just to stop feeling physically uncomfortable so often without relief. Clitoral orgasms alone do not fulfill me.
> 
> I had washed it and left it by the bathroom sink to dry (we don't have kids). He found it and basically wouldn't talk to me for a couple of days. I couldn't find it and he admitted to throwing it away.


So you did this without talking to him first? I somehow get the feeling you DELIBERATELY left it there so he could find it - and from what you said I don't blame you! I can also see how he was annoyed - probably showing him how he wasn't a real man. At least he was upfront about his porn use with you.



> And to think of all those times I pleaded with him to stop using porn, to please turn to me. "This is what guys do", "you have to get used to it"
> 
> I know. Porn is the winner. It is more exciting than me. The women are more desirable. I'm long since resigned to that.
> 
> But that was my life experience. I think it's a terrible thing.


Porn was not the problem here. Your husband's disrespect was.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

I don't have a problem with porn.

If young girls are stupid enough and greedy enough to be lured in by a quick buck to subject themselves to being battered in every orifice they have, then they're dumber than they already appear in these films. And most of these fools will probably be wearing their anus's around their ankles by the time they're 50.

For most, it's a *choice*, not indentured slavery. Not saying ALL, I said for most.

You can't be 'exploited' if you DON'T SHOW UP at the porn producer's office looking for work - right? I never chose to show up at a porn producer's office and guess what? I'm not being exploited in x-rated films and even more happily, all my body parts are still INSIDE me and not draped around my ankles. I think it's a bit ludicrous to proclaim that porn 'exploits' women and that's why men shouldn't watch it. As someone else mentioned, I'm sure those $300 sneakers that some people covet were constructed by 'exploited' workers in sweat shops yet people are still buying them. 

Personally, I think women use an awful lot of lame excuses to try to control every single thing their husbands look at and every single thing they fantasize about. Such an exercise in futility. It's utterly ridiculous to think a man should only be allowed to find his wife desirable and no one else. Yeah, I know what the bible says but let's get real here folks - in the REAL world, it just doesn't happen that way.

Lastly, an awful lot of women like to try to blame porn for why their husbands cheated. Did you ever notice that WOMEN aren't accused of cheating due to watching too much porn? Ever notice they don't use that "porn made me do it!" fake defense when women are caught with their pants down? Funny how it's just men latching onto this OVERUSED get out of jail free card. Years ago I was married to a serial cheater - long before computers and cell phones, so porn was not readily available 24 hours a day. He'd have to rent a VHS tape and wait til I wasn't home if he wanted to watch porn and frankly, that wasn't high on his list of things to do, so the porn 'excuse' sure doesn't work in his case.

Yet, *amazingly* enough, he was STILL out cheating every chance he got. Because he was a low life cheater, not because 'porn' drove him to it. I think women just tell themselves this nonsense so they can accept what their husband's did rather than place the accountability where it REALLY belongs - on their cheating husband who did what he did because he WANTED to. They've become rabid about how 'evil' it is and seem to think their husbands would be _right as rain_ if they *just *didn't look at porn. <insert HUGE eye roll here>

I just think women need to be a little more realistic. I have better things to do than 'forbid' my almost 60 year old husband from occasionally watching porn, like he's some horny 15 year old pimple faced teenager that mommy needs to control.

Just my 2 bits.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Daisy12 said:


> This is very true in some cases, but if you are being frequently turned down for sex by your partner I think there are problems in that marriage and lying to you spouse about using porn is not going to help that, it's going to make it worse and probably end your marriage.
> 
> I wish my husband had of been a man and told me what he wanted all those years ago instead of going to porn. He would of saved me all this pain and angry. I might have been pissed off with that conversation when it first happened, but when i calmed down i would have made the changes that my husband wanted because I love you him and want him to be happy, and if i wasn't able to make those changes i would have let him go for the same reasons. I know he doesn't want to lose me or break up our family but, he didn't have the right to make that choice, and by lying about the porn he has permantly damaged our relationship. We are working now to get it back but it will never be the same. I will never look at him the same...


The way I view it, if a spouse is constantly rejecting their SO, then saying the other person using porn could end the marriage is unfair as really that just comes across as blame shifting.

Each situation is different, but I think there are situations where it simply is a drive mismatch, and the person with the higher drive is using porn to help meet their needs. You can't make the other person want to have sex more, and in all other aspects you still have a very good marriage. I am actually at the opposite end of the spectrum, where when we have gone through dry spells I actually rather avoid any sort of stimulation such as porn, helps to keep my frustration at a minimum, focus on other things. 

Ultimately though, if porn use is replacing an aspect of the relationship that would otherwise be there, it is a problem/concern.

Side note, I don't buy the whole "If you don't want your son/daughter doing it, then you are a hypocrite if you watch porn" nonsense (not related to your post Daisy)


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Just wondering as well, how many women would have an issue with their SO watching porn yet would have no problems using a vibrator to take care of themselves? I see no difference between the two.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Good Guy;17160793[QUOTE said:


> Really that is like any other profession, there are health hazards that should be managed properly. STDs for another.



Porn is a completely unnecessary "profession". Handling medical waste or handling chemicals in a paint factory is something that is by-and-large, necessary in our world. If porn was no longer made, people would still have sex.







> I had the same dream - and I also know now it's a lie. Women fall completely and entirely for another man - whereas the porn use is a sexual release which is forgotten about straight after. Which is the bigger lie?



Men fall for other women_ all the time_. You are being a sneak here, in trying to suggest that men are physically faithful, but only use porn----whilst women are physically unfaithful but don't use porn. Some women are okay with porn. Some go along with it to be the cool chick, who's savvier and sexier than us pathetic "prudes" who don't like porn.

But it's interesting. Young women are more into porn than women, say, over 40. It will be interesting as the porn industry expands to cater to a female market. 

How *will* young husbands feel when their wives start preferring porn to them? How will they feel when their wife or gf. has to see other guys' c.oc.ks before she can get turned on enough to have sex with him. How will these guys feel when their wife needs to have a porn on during sex so she can watch one* her *favorite male performers while having sex with her husband?

From what I've learned about men's _retroactive_ sexual jealousy over_ past_ boyfriends; these guys are not going to be happy.





> Yes, of course. I have done. My daughter has no illusions about men. I wish someone had told me the same about the true nature of women.


Wow, well I'm glad you have told your daughter what to expect with regards to porn and men. And yes, it's good that you don't see women as idealized princesses.

Marriage and human sexual relationships are being changed by pornography, no doubt. And perhaps it's good to know the truth. The truth is hard and leaves no room for ideals, or romance. But, yes, it is still better.





> You are rationalising here big time. Why read them???? The world of a book can be more real and absorbing than a film. You imagine yourself in that situation - otherwise there's no point to it. Anyone who reads a lot knows this.



But there is no-one there. You imagine an idea. There is no substance.

When I masturbate, I rarely think about men. Sometimes when I orgasm, the faces of men that I've been attracted to, kind of flash before my eyes. In the past, I had fantasies in my mind. Now I mostly think of disembodied erect penises. Because that's what I crave to have sex.

I'm telling you this to make the point that we all have sexual imagery in our minds. *Especially* if you were born and raised in the last half of the 20th century. I think men call this their "spank bank".

It's not possible to go through life at this time in history without absorbing images of a sexual nature. They are abundant.

Why seek out more? Why hurt your significant other? My husband told me that he use to masturbate to the women's underwear models in the JCPenney catalog that we had mailed to our home.

And if you guys really have such insatiable sexual appetites, physical stimulation of your penises for a couple of minutes while thinking about some great cleavage you've seen recently on some women bending over in front of you in line at the grocery store [or whatever]; should be enough? Right? Why isn't it enough? I mean, you're just aching to bust a nut, right? My husband used to ejaculate before entering me on a semi-regular basis. If you're crazy horny, it doesn't take much. I'm a woman with a fraction of the testosterone you have, and I know that.

None of us are pure. But you don't have to seek out more sexual stimulation from someone other than your spouse.

Having images of the teenage girl next door in your mind while you masturbate is a fire......watching porn of having sex with teenage girls is pouring gasoline on that fire. Isn't thinking about the girl enough.

And of course I wish that my husband hadn't found every other attractive sexy woman in sight enough to ogle and masturbate to; but that's probably unavoidable, to a large extent. He isn't seeing them fully naked. And he isn't watching them having sex. And those women were not having to work in pornography in order to "entertain" him. So although having your boyfriend rubberneck a group of pretty young girls when you are walking in the mall with him is embarrassing. Minimal damage is done when he jerks off to the memory of them in the shower. 

If you can't [or won't] see the difference between images that you are unavoidable exposed to in real life.....and the manufactured images of nitroglycerin grade porn.....then I don't know how to explain it. I apologize for my lack of articulation.



> Yes I've read some. I don't do it anymore because it's much much worse than watching porn. Not only do you get the full sexual details, you also get to feel how the person was enjoying cheating (and it's mostly cheating of one sort or another) or whatever it was they were doing.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Reading words on a page about people that don't exist doing things that never happened can't possible compare to* actual real humans* being recorded performing some of the craziest sh.t imaginable. There is no comparison. And people in porn scenarios are cheating frequently; mostly from what I can tell. And if your watching it that's part of the turn on.




> Would you be OK with your man using that?


Cartoon porn, CGI? It's the lesser of two evils. I still find it soulless for married adults to use pornography to get aroused and get off. It's kind of pathetic. I guess I always thought of pornography as being for guys who were single; or for perverts.
I always thought of sex as being between just two people; in every way.





> There's an enormous difference for a man orgasming to porn or masturbating and making love to someone he truly loves. One is like a good pee after holding it in all day while the other is like nothing else on earth,


I don't get that impression at all. I'll take your word for it that that's your experience.

But modern research is showing that for younger men, at least, who have been "raised" on porn----porn is far more satisfying and exciting than their real partners. If you don't believe me, investigate yourbrainonporn. Or Google "my husband prefers porn to me". You'll see how porn is now often a man's sex-of-choice, despite his wife/gf. lying in bed waiting for him. Check out some of the threads on this site in the SIM section.





> This here is the problem. This shows he doesn't love or respect you. I or any decent man would NEVER do this.


You're referring to my husband comparing my body to more attractive bodies he's seen in porn.

He "loves" me. I am simply not as pretty as the women he viewed for years in print and film pornography. They are his ideal. He had very little verbal filtering when he was young and he told me what he thought.

Harsh and lacerating, yes. But honest. He's just more honest.



> This is really sad. I think you have never had a man who truly loved you.


In the physical/sexual sense; I would have to agree with you. My husband loves me in other ways.



I


> actually think a lot of that is because of the shame men feel around sex and porn; and the whole PC world we live in; if it was called instead "*Respectful man has loving sex with career driven woman"* I'd still watch it, but I'd somehow feel someone was in there manipulating this area of my life too.


You've got to be kidding me. The nasty-a.s.sed titles are what draws guys in. They allude to what the content is going to be like. A potent mixture of sex and hatred.





> So you did this without talking to him first? I somehow get the feeling you DELIBERATELY left it there so he could find it. I can see how he was annoyed. At least he was upfront about his porn use with you.


I started asking him in 2013 to please have sex with me. Please have sex with me more often. Why don't we have sex as much anymore?

Meeting him at the door and asking him to come to bed and have sex.

Walking into the living room while he's watching TV and asking him to come and have sex.

Reaching over to him in bed and getting my hand pushed away.

So, he knew I wanted sex. He now knows he has low testosterone. He takes anti-depressants too. So, yes, he is now a 50-something guy with a much lower sex drive.

And I have told him point blank to his face that oral with fingers would be great. Just fingering would be great.

And he has less and less interest.

So I bought a sex toy for the first time in my life. And I don't know if I subconsciously left it by the sink for him to find. I know I didn't think about it much either way.

But, I didn't hide it from him. And he doesn't take my requests for sex seriously.

Interesting that you automatically blame me and take his side [the side of porn use]. But, okay.




> Porn was not the problem here. Your husband's disrespect was.


I think porn and disrespect go hand in hand. But that's probably due to my experiences.
[/QUOTE]


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Porn is not the equivalent of romance novels. Romance novels may have sexy parts; but they are words on a page/screen. No people are involved. There are no images.
> 
> And men read "dirty" erotica too. X-rated stuff. But a lot of popular books popular with men are very sexual. Even decades ago "Tropic of Cancer" caused a sensation with it's frank sexuality.
> 
> ...





EllisRedding said:


> Just wondering as well, how many women would have an issue with their SO watching porn yet would have no problems using a vibrator to take care of themselves? I see no difference between the two.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Side note, I don't buy the whole "If you don't want your son/daughter doing it, then you are a hypocrite if you watch porn" nonsense (not related to your post Daisy)




Why?

If porn is okay, and good and healthy. What's wrong with your daughter [or son] doing it?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm not crazy about my hb watching a lot of porn.

Fortunately he doesn't.....if he's watching a little I'm ok with that. I'm certainly not going to police him. 

I also have a couple of toys that he bought me. I've never used them without him because it's much better for our bonding if i use them with him.....and it's much more fun having him participate.

I think anything that directs intimacy away from your spouse is a bad idea. Having said that I don't think dildos and masterbating without porn are equivalent to watching porn. The former don't create unreasonable expectations.

A guy rubbing one out in the shower is nowhere near equivalent to getting off to porn.

As for romance novels, I don't care for them. I tried reading a couple in my teens but thought they were silly


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> This.
> 
> It also teaches that we are all disposable...like, when you're done with one ...NEXT! That said, I don't ask my fiance about his views of porn, or if he looks at it. Maybe he does, we don't live together now, but we are together a lot, and our relationship is the best I've ever had, and the chemistry is amazing. But, maybe men don't really view porn because they are lacking chemistry with their partners, they might look at porn because it's an escape from the stress of life. They should be turning to their spouses, but if their everyday life is filled with pressure and stress, porn might be an easy escape.
> 
> We all have vices, my escape might be going for a run, or retail therapy. lol I don't know if I'd leave my fiance over him viewing porn, probably only if it became a substitute for me, and of course if it led to other behaviors, like cheating (which I heard isn't uncommon for men who are frequent porn viewers)


Deidre

Do yourself a favor and ask your partner about his porn use NOW, before you two commit to hopefully, a long life together. Like I said previously, porn use is a compatibility issue just like religion and lifestyle. There are highs and lows in LTR and it's best if you and he are in agreement about this topic. Go into the marriage with as much knowledge about your partner as you possibly can. My 2 cents. 

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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Good Guy said:


> There are two types of men, the type that use porn and the type that lie about it. *If a man who is married to a wonderful woman in every other way but would divorce him for watching porn, I could see how he could lie about it. *


That would make him a selfish liar. 

He doesn't respect his wife or her boundaries. Instead, he'll selfishly continue to enjoy his perfect life until his wife figures it out and devastates her. 




Good Guy said:


> As other posters said, it's not something to be proud of.


First of all, I think the vast majority of men who look at porn are not ashamed of it. They may keep it private from others who don't approve of it but they are not 'ashamed' of it.

But, for those who do feel shame, why continue to do it? 


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Side note, I don't buy the whole "If you don't want your son/daughter doing it, then you are a hypocrite if you watch porn" nonsense (not related to your post Daisy)


I don't think it is nonsense. I think it is spot on.

I can see how it would bother a person's conscience, though. It is supposed to.


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> The way I view it, if a spouse is constantly rejecting their SO, then saying the other person using porn could end the marriage is unfair as really that just comes across as blame shifting.
> 
> Each situation is different, but I think there are situations where it simply is a drive mismatch, and the person with the higher drive is using porn to help meet their needs. You can't make the other person want to have sex more, and in all other aspects you still have a very good marriage. I am actually at the opposite end of the spectrum, where when we have gone through dry spells I actually rather avoid any sort of stimulation such as porn, helps to keep my frustration at a minimum, focus on other things.
> 
> ...


It's not so much the porn as the lying. My husband lied to me about his porn use and didn't want to chance me Leaving him as he was happy with me and wanted to stay married. He knew the porn upset me. How is it fair that he sacrificed my happiness and trust in him and piece of mind for his own selfish needs to not have his world change? He was selfish all those years and only thought about himself. If he brought this to my attention I may have changed to meet his needs, I may of said use the porn I'm okay with it, or I might have left, but it would have been my right to make that choice and he robbed me of that.

That is not okay. If you men or women as well it's not just a male problem, need or want to use porn than be honest with your wife/husband . If there are negative consequences for your action than accept them like a grown up, don't lie and sneak around like a child.

Sent from my D2206 using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Good Guy said:


> No, but neither does going to the bathroom.
> 
> My eldest daughter (18) knows I watch porn. We have discussed things like that. Like having a poo it's not something I'm proud of or want her to see but it is necessary (or at least masturbation is) from time to time.


Looking at porn as a comparison to bodily elimination?

Elimination is necessary if you want to stay alive. Porn is completely optional.

There is a big difference between what is not polite to discuss and what is downright risky to engage in.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> The way I view it, if a spouse is constantly rejecting their SO, then saying the other person using porn could end the marriage is unfair as really that just comes across as blame shifting.


It's not blame shifting. It's enforcing a boundary. Imagine how much better things would be for the person enduring a marriage with a rejecting spouse if he/she were to enforce their boundaries. 




EllisRedding said:


> Each situation is different, but I think there are situations where it simply is a drive mismatch, and the person with the higher drive is using porn to help meet their needs. You can't make the other person want to have sex more, and in all other aspects you still have a very good marriage. I am actually at the opposite end of the spectrum, where when we have gone through dry spells I actually rather avoid any sort of stimulation such as porn, helps to keep my frustration at a minimum, focus on other things.
> 
> Ultimately though, if porn use is replacing an aspect of the relationship that would otherwise be there, it is a problem/concern.


Everyone has their reasons for watching porn. I'm actually not opposed to those who do watch it. That's their preference and personal choice. However, I do have problems with people who know their partner disapproves of it and, instead of addressing it directly, they hide and lie about it. 

It's a rhetorical question but if porn is affecting the relationship negatively or is something that needs to be hid from a nonapproving partner, why not just bring it up and hash out the problem one way or the other?




EllisRedding said:


> Side note, I don't buy the whole "If you don't want your son/daughter doing it, then you are a hypocrite if you watch porn" nonsense (not related to your post Daisy)


I'm assuming that you're talking about my post. I don't think hypocrisy is nonsense in any case but why do you think it is in the case of porn? 

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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Daisy12 said:


> It's not so much the porn as the lying.



A lot of women say this same thing.

Are you saying that if he was honest with you, porn would be okay?

As in, he tells you upfront at the beginning of the relationship: "I'm going to use porn fairly consistently throughout our relationship. This is something all men do. You'll have to get used to it."

Does that make his porn use hurt less?


I discovered my husband's porn because I would walk in on him using it; he would think I was asleep already and I wasn't.

Or he'd leave VHS tapes in the player with porn on them.


Or he'd pick up a "dirty magazine" in a store and look at it, with me standing by him. Not all stores kept them behind the counter wrapped in brown paper wrappers. Independent convenience stores would have them in the magazine racks with everything else.

And when I'd get hurt; he'd tell me that I had to accept it....he didn't say it that nicely though.


Honesty is great, but it never made the pain hurt less.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> A lot of women say this same thing.
> 
> Are you saying that if he was honest with you, porn would be okay?
> 
> ...


Honesty is just a tool for seeing into your and the other person's heart. If what you see is not good, there is the opportunity to change or leave it.

I am sorry he has not changed, notmyrealname. 

What keeps you from leaving him?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I probably have the strangest marriage on TAM --in the masturbation / Porn respect, that is... 

I don't think anyone would even believe this.. but I swear it's the truth.. unless my husband is blatantly lying to me...

He LOVES to look at sexy women.. always has, always will...downloads them even.. this does not bother me (but this WILL make more sense after reading this post)..... It did bother me at one time.. when I was going to church, we had a couple fights, I put scriptures on his desktop when I found these folders of Playboy bunnies -he never tried to hide them...then he'd feel like sh** when I cried about it.. (a few times) but during all that .. we never spoke a word of masturbation...

What I learned 8 yrs ago SHOCKED ME, made me question his T levels ...and also made *ME* look bad [email protected]#

He had NO reason to lie to me -in fact if he did lie.. I would have been happier, ecstatic... When My sex drive climbed insatiably.. I opened up the masturbation question (finally!)....what a shame...as I realized how badly we missed each other and it should have never been...He suffered far more than me with the higher drive during those years.

At this time, however, He couldn't keep up with me (3 times a day would have been heaven).. I WANTED HIM TO BE A HORN DOG in the worst degree, wishing he was 20 yrs younger.....I was also questioning his Testosterone levels.. even sent him to the Doc for this (He was Low normal).... I wanted to hear he was yanking it for years -when we didn't have as much sex... 

When I asked him how often he did this through the years...he told me he didn't masturbate ..only 1 time during our marriage (story there -in trying to conceive a girl, a co-worker told him to yank it that am ...he did.. and we did conceive our only daughter that night)...what a revelation! ...

But he went on to say.. *He always waited for me*.. he said he felt like that would be "cheating" (his words).. but again he loves to look.....I remember him getting up early in the am looking at these beauties before work sometimes ..... I said "[email protected]#...and tried my darnedest to drag this out of him.. telling him he's not normal, OMG he has a Testosterone problem then!!... I was visibly upset hearing he didn't masturbate, I even cried .....it caused me great [email protected]# 

For Goodness sakes he would have been better to stretch the truth here.... but still he insisted he always waited for me.. I can attest when we had sex.. he was ready to explode every single time.. 

Then I had to confess I was a "Cheater " then...cause I masturbated plenty of times over the years, yeah even looking at hot men...Lord.. what a crazy conversation this was... and a sad one too.. because in those moments I realized WHY he had some resentment towards me - waiting like that.. and how pathetically bad we missed each other , should have been having more sex !! I denied my husband !!.. sometimes I would get horny in the middle of the night and feel he needed his sleep.. half the time I woke him up, half the time I went solo...

Upon hearing that .. he said "Hell , that's important.. it would be like waking me up to tell me the house was on fire!"... never forget that crazy comment.. 

So today.. both of us wait for each other.. during my insatiable period... I did masturbate maybe 10 times as he wasn't there and I just needed it... 

I asked about his habits before we met... he said he used to do it *up to 5 times a day.*. that made me feel better.. like he sure didn't have a T problem back then ! The patience my husband had through the years -waiting for me.. I could have NEVER ever done that.. I would have been mad as a hornet ..caused a lot of grief.. happy I am not a man.. 

I like porn, watching it -more than he seems to... he doesn't want to see the man in the video at all.. he's happy I am a "dirty old woman" though.


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> A lot of women say this same thing.
> 
> Are you saying that if he was honest with you, porn would be okay?
> 
> ...


I probably might not have been okay with it if my husband told me this when we first were dating, but if he had of done that then at least we could have came to a compromise or went separate ways instead of now being 20 year in and having kids to think about. When this first came out I hated my husband for making me choose between my own happiness or my kids happiness. Leaving him now would destroy my children, something I really don't want to do. Is it fair that he put me in that position? I don't think so.

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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Good Guy said:


> Yes, of course. I have done. My daughter has no illusions about men. I wish someone had told me the same about the true nature of women.


If you had met a nice woman that would not have brought out your "true nature," would you be watching porn today? Are we pure when we are young and are just brought down by others? Isn't there a higher ground?

Long ago, when we, as humans came from the animal kingdom, we used to kill to protect our family. We don't have to do that anymore. 

Porn is a remnant of our need to pass our DNA to any female in heat we saw. Can't most of us evolve to a higher level and respect the other sex? Do we really need to look at porn? Is it not animal behavior?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dug never looks at porn. I guess I just took that for granted all these years. But it has surely benefitted our marriage, even without my ever really thinking about it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Daisy12 said:


> I probably might not have been okay with it if my husband told me this when we first were dating, but if he had of done that then at least we could have came to a compromise or went separate ways instead of now being 20 year in and having kids to think about. When this first came out I hated my husband for making me choose between my own happiness or my kids happiness. Leaving him now would destroy my children, something I really don't want to do. Is it fair that he put me in that position? I don't think so.
> 
> Sent from my D2206 using Tapatalk


Yeah, life would have to be really bad before I would accept to not be with my children every day of the year, or to let another person come into their life as a major influence.

I could see not wanting to have sex ever if I were married to a deceiver, though. No trust, no real intimacy.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

jld said:


> Honesty is just a tool for seeing into your and the other person's heart. If what you see is not good, there is the opportunity to change or leave it.
> 
> I am sorry he has not changed, notmyrealname.
> 
> What keeps you from leaving him?




Well, the porn was the first two-thirds or so [guessing] of our relationship.


For the last several years [5,6,7?] his health has declined in ways that directly affected his sex drive:

Significant weight gain [but he is still very tall and good looking, if much heavier]. He has never tried to seriously lose weight.

High blood pressure. He's on meds. The med he takes affects his ability to get erections.

High cholesterol. He's not getting it treated, I don't know why.

Low testosterone. He's not taking testosterone. I don't blame him; I can't take hormonal birth control for health reasons.

Back problems; due to midriff weight gain, for the most part.

Anti-depressants-----his sex drive just sank when he started taking these. They really help him at work though; he used to massively stress out over work.

Tired, low energy, poor sleep-----I think this is low-T related. I'm sure exercise and weight loss would help, but that's probably never going to happen.


Anywayzz, sex is not on his radar. Porn or otherwise. And I'm sure that if his health and fitness and testosterone improved he's be back to porn in no time. Despite his "Christianity" and despite his "love" for me.

A couple of months ago we got a new tablet. I was playing around with it learning my way around and I saw where he was looking on YouTube Penthouse playmates and twerking videos {on his history}. So, maybe every once and a while he still jerks off to images of sexy women.

I'm so detached and tired, I don't care anymore emotionally.

But he was supposed to provide me with a functioning penis, or some kind of sexual attention as a substitute. I see that as his marital duty.

And what would I leave him for? A man who loves me so much he wouldn't use porn? That man does not exist. Sex and love are not related to one another. If they go together, that is great. I mean an extreme example to make a point: rapists enjoy sex, but they sure don't love the woman they are ejaculating into. The existence of rape porn proves this.


We'd be doing young women a service to let them know this as soon as they are old enough to perceive it.


And I only address the sexual history of our marriage. My husband and I have many good components to our relationship.


But I have asked myself---- "if you had it all to do over again", or "what would you tell your 19 year old self, if you could"------strange things to consider.


What are you telling your daughters about sex, porn and men, jld???


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Well, the porn was the first two-thirds or so [guessing] of our relationship.
> 
> 
> For the last several years [5,6,7?] his health has declined in ways that directly affected his sex drive:
> ...


I just have one daughter, but four sons. I have not said anything to her. She has actually told me more about porn and young men than I ever would have known to tell her. 

She said a lot of young men she knows have ED from too much porn. Their girlfriends cannot compete with the images they are used to.

That is just amazing to me, that men in their early 20s can only orgasm with porn.

I have told my boys to stay away from porn, that it will bring a lot of problems. I have asked them to think about the people they want to be, and if porn is really part of that.

I certainly do not monitor what they look at on their computers. But they understand that the choices they make will affect their lives. They will pay the price for their choices by the people they become. I hope they will choose wisely.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

@SimplyAmorous



I am glad that you have such a devoted husband, who is totally enamored and respectful of you. The more happiness in the world, the better. 


I do think, though, that if you had been walking in on him regularly with his pants around his ankles---masturbating to anything and everything he could get his hands on; you'd be singing a different song.

And I'm glad that you never had that experience. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.


And I understand that you are probably far prettier and sexier to your husband, than I am to mine.


I think your situation is rare. Beautiful, but rare.


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I discovered my husband's porn because I would walk in on him using it; he would think I was asleep already and I wasn't.
> 
> Or he'd leave VHS tapes in the player with porn on them.
> 
> ...


Right now my husband is not using and I have to hope that he has enough respect for me to tell me if or when he want to start looking again like i asked him to do.. no more lying. If or when that day comes if i decide to stay in the marriage regardless of the porn than at least it will be my decision and i will have to live with it regardless of whether i like it or not. And if I can't handle it then I have the choice to leave. 

If he lies to me again and starts using in secret than he has tied my hands and I will leave. I still have my self respect and dignity and I am worth an honest open relationship and I am demanding my husband treat me with the same respect I treat him.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

jld said:


> I just have one daughter, but four sons. I have not said anything to her. She has actually told me more about porn and young men than I ever would have known to tell her.




I don't have kids. And when it comes to issues like this; well, it's one of the times that I'm really, really glad that I don't.

What a maelstrom for a young woman to have to deal with. Having to send your beautiful sweetie out into a sexual cesspool.


I hope she can find a guy like Dug.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I don't have kids. And when it comes to issues like this; well, it's one of the times that I'm really, really glad that I don't.
> 
> What a maelstrom for a young woman to have to deal with. Having to send your beautiful sweetie out into a sexual cesspool.
> 
> ...


If she can't, I don't think there is any point to getting married.

And thank you for your kind words.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Sorry, I don't agree. If a female is using a vibrator to take care of herself, to replace a portion of her sex life with her H, it is no different than a guy watching porn to do the same. It doesn't matter the means, the end result is the same.



notmyrealname4 said:


> Why?
> 
> If porn is okay, and good and healthy. What's wrong with your daughter [or son] doing it?


If someone wants to do porn that is their choice. Just b/c I think it is a horrible job for a variety of reasons which is why I wouldn't want my kids to do it, doesn't make it any less right or wrong for the people who want to be involved in it. 





Lila said:


> It's not blame shifting. It's enforcing a boundary. Imagine how much better things would be for the person enduring a marriage with a rejecting spouse if he/she were to enforce their boundaries.


The way Daisy framed it, it is blame shifting. As she said, using porn could be the reason for ending the marriage in her post. How about the SO who deprioritizes sex in the relationship, or rejects? Sorry, they are the ones responsible, not the person who may be using porn as a way to meet their needs that the SO is neglecting. 






Lila said:


> Everyone has their reasons for watching porn. I'm actually not opposed to those who do watch it. That's their preference and personal choice. However, I do have problems with people who know their partner disapproves of it and, instead of addressing it directly, they hide and lie about it.
> 
> It's a rhetorical question but if porn is affecting the relationship negatively or is something that needs to be hid from a nonapproving partner, why not just bring it up and hash out the problem one way or the other?


I do agree with this as I have stated before I do believe in some (many?) situations porn can be a negative in a relationship. I only have issues with, as I stated above, with spouses who deprioritize/neglect/reject the sexual needs of the other person but then gets all bent out of shape b/c that person turns to porn as a means to meet some of those needs.





Lila said:


> I'm assuming that you're talking about my post. I don't think hypocrisy is nonsense in any case but why do you think it is in the case of porn?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


My comment wasn't directed to you as it was the general conversation here. See my response above to NMRN4


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Daisy12 said:


> Right now my husband is not using and I have to hope that he has enough respect for me to tell me if or when he want to start looking again like i asked him to do.. no more lying. If or when that day comes if i decide to stay in the marriage regardless of the porn than at least it will be my decision and i will have to live with it regardless of whether i like it or not. And if I can't handle it then I have the choice to leave.
> 
> If he lies to me again and starts using in secret than he has tied my hands and I will leave. *I still have my self respect and dignity and I am worth an honest open relationship and I am demanding my husband treat me with the same respect I treat him*.


 @farsidejunky

If your wife had said the above to you when you were using porn, how would you have reacted? Would it have increased your respect for her?


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> The way Daisy framed it, it is blame shifting. As she said, using porn could be the reason for ending the marriage in her post. How about the SO who deprioritizes sex in the relationship, or rejects? Sorry, they are the ones responsible, not the person who may be using porn as a way to meet their needs that the SO is neglecting.



You are right, it's not fair to the other spouse to not make sex a priority and deny the other spouse and if my husband had been honest and told me he need more sex or he was going to look at porn, or just a straight up i need more sex and i did nothing than i would have no one to blame but myself for his porn use. I could chose to live with it or leave.

I understand why people use the porn when sex in a relationship is nonexistent , but it still does not make lying and hiding things from your spouse ok. If 20 years ago my husband had of being honest about his sexuality and what he needed from me and if i didn't try to make sex a priority he would use porn to masturbate, than i would have made changes back then, that i have now. We could have saved ourselves from all the mess, but he was uncomfortable with talking about sex and i was as well. 

I think mu husband realizes that now and has cheated himself out of a lot of great years of sex.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I agree that lying is generally bad. There are sadly though some of us in relationships where our spouses do not want sex. Do not think we should want sex. Do no think we should use porn. They also do not see anything wrong with their view of the universe and have no desire to discuss or change it. In this situation I don't see a problem with lying about porn. (or divorcing which in many cases is the right answer).





Daisy12 said:


> This is very true in some cases, but if you are being frequently turned down for sex by your partner I think there are problems in that marriage and lying to you spouse about using porn is not going to help that, it's going to make it worse and probably end your marriage.
> 
> I wish my husband had of been a man and told me what he wanted all those years ago instead of going to porn. He would of saved me all this pain and angry. I might have been pissed off with that conversation when it first happened, but when i calmed down i would have made the changes that my husband wanted because I love you him and want him to be happy, and if i wasn't able to make those changes i would have let him go for the same reasons. I know he doesn't want to lose me or break up our family but, he didn't have the right to make that choice, and by lying about the porn he has permantly damaged our relationship. We are working now to get it back but it will never be the same. I will never look at him the same...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Daisy12 said:


> You are right, it's not fair to the other spouse to not make sex a priority and deny the other spouse and if my husband had been honest and told me he need more sex or he was going to look at porn, or just a straight up i need more sex and i did nothing than i would have no one to blame but myself for his porn use. I could chose to live with it or leave.
> 
> I understand why people use the porn when sex in a relationship is nonexistent , but it still does not make lying and hiding things from your spouse ok. If 20 years ago my husband had of being honest about his sexuality and what he needed from me and if i didn't try to make sex a priority he would use porn to masturbate, than i would have made changes back then, that i have now. We could have saved ourselves from all the mess, but he was uncomfortable with talking about sex and i was as well.
> 
> I think mu husband realizes that now and has cheated himself out of a lot of great years of sex.


I agree with your point based on your experience. I am talking about more from the standpoint that the couple has discussed the issues and nothing has changed. I know the default response on TAM is "Well, then divorce the person" lol. However, everything else in the relationship could be going well, or it isn't something that the person wants to divorce over, so they find an alternative to meet their needs.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Sorry, I don't agree. If a female is using a vibrator to take care of herself, to replace a portion of her sex life with her H, it is no different than a guy watching porn to do the same. It doesn't matter the means, the end result is the same.


Yes, I agree. Porn or solo use of sex toys: they are replacing a portion of your mutual sex life. For both men and women.

All I am saying is to make the equivalencies accurate:


A man watching porn = a woman watching porn

A man using a stroker sleeve = a woman using a dildo


However,


A man using porn ≠ a woman using a dildo

A woman using porn ≠ a man using a stroker sleeve


Why is there a difference?

Because watching real people means you are getting off to real people. People that you are vicariously having sex with.

I know a lot of guys say, "I'm not getting off to the woman, I'm getting off to the sex act".


What is a sex act? Well, in this case, it's a naked woman who's not your wife, doing just about anything that you'd like to see her doing.

Your arousal, excitement, orgasm are provided by and satisfied with the images of the woman in porn.

Or think of it this way; film a porn without anyone performing sex acts. What would you have? Nothing. Sex acts and the bodies of those performing them _are the same thing_.

It's virtual cheating. Nothing more, nothing less.


And I know: Tough. Too bad. That's how it is. Who are you to think you would be everything to your husband? You're just insecure. You're jealous and controlling. You've got a problem. You must really hate sex. You're a prude. If my wife was like you, I'd jerk to porn all the time too. You're probably fat. He doesn't think you're pretty enough. You're probably not any good at sex.........

I know. I'm the loser. I'm a minority.


But using a sex toy is not the same as looking at porn. When you have an orgasm, it DOES matter what stimulates you to have one.


I do not expect to be attractive to most men. I don't _want_ to be attractive to most men. I wanted to be the most attractive woman to my husband.

And I'm not. I get it. Signal transmitted, message received.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

notmyrealname4 said:


> @SimplyAmorous
> 
> I do think, though, that if you had been walking in on him regularly with his pants around his ankles---masturbating to anything and everything he could get his hands on; you'd be singing a different song.


Yes I would ... Please don't think I would ever think anything like this is OK... it's not ...it's more hurtful than words can express.....what this can do to a woman... living with that.... I wasn't following the posts here.. so maybe my post was out of place with the flow of conversation ....I didn't share to even hint that porn is all well & good ...Porn addiction is very real.. I have visited such forums, reading some stories even.. I would be wholly devastated to walk in on that...the anger and HURT would wash all over my body being the sensitive woman I am....I know I wouldn't be able to live with it.. I'd get depressed.. full of anger...I'd resort to telling him if he didnt' want me.. I'd find someone who did.. I would lash out... 

If I was denying him.. it would make a little more sense to me.. but that's the thing.. what is the overall situation..our stories are all different.. my heart is always for the one who is wanting, desiring the intimacy... and against the one abusing it.. taking it for granted or wasting it somewhere else -like a computer screen, while the one they love suffers. 

My husband is "to the extreme" in devotion where it HURT Him and it just shouldn't have been... I feel if he felt rejected by me.. he should have enjoyed himself now & then... 

The other is...as far as I am concerned.. replacing a spouse .. I greatly emphasize with what this can do to a woman emotionally...

I feel our yrs of infertility -his waiting to deposit his sperm conditioned him "to wait" - so he got used to it.. but it still took a toll on him.. in this way.. even this situation was not ideal...it was a blessing I had to walk in his shoes for a time to understand how it would FEEL...


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I agree that lying is generally bad. There are sadly though some of us in relationships where our spouses do not want sex. Do not think we should want sex. Do no think we should use porn. They also do not see anything wrong with their view of the universe and have no desire to discuss or change it. In this situation I don't see a problem with lying about porn. (or divorcing which in many cases is the right answer).


If lying is the only way you can keep your spouse from leaving, are they even worth being with. Maybe the wife knows about the Porn use and choses to look they other way as she doesn't want to leave or put into the marriage what her husband needs. I understand these situations happen and I share some of the blame for my husband turning to it, but I have fixed my end of the problem I expect him to fix his end. 



Sent from my D2206 using Tapatalk


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> But using a sex toy is not the same as looking at porn. When you have an orgasm, it DOES matter what stimulates you to have one.


How do you know that the person using the toy isn't fantasizing about someone else who is not their SO? Explain how that would be different then someone watching porn to masturbate? How about someone who actually needs visual stimulation in order to masturbate (i.e. just trying to conjure up images in your heads doesn't work)? I know the impression for some (not saying you, but I have seen a few females state so) is that all a guy needs is his hand and a bar of soap, and he is off to the races. That is not necessarily true.


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> I agree with your point based on your experience. I am talking about more from the standpoint that the couple has discussed the issues and nothing has changed. I know the default response on TAM is "Well, then divorce the person" lol. However, everything else in the relationship could be going well, or it isn't something that the person wants to divorce over, so they find an alternative to meet their needs.


If you have talked to your spouse about what you need and that you will be taking care of yourself if they won't try to meet it then I think the other spouse better learn to live with it or leave, but don't take that choice from them. I'm not saying flaunt your use, but if asked about it, don't lie. I have asked over the years and was lied to.

If a wife repeatly refuses to have sex and demands her Husband not look at porn and uses divorce as a consequence/threat, well that is controlling manipulative behavior...not healthy at all and I feel bad for those men as their backs are against the wall with no where to go.



Sent from my D2206 using Tapatalk


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## Hellomynameis (Dec 16, 2016)

One of the other issues with porn is that like any other addiction the more you feed it the more it grows. Just like drugs - the longer you use them, the more you need to get high.

When I first married I caught my H with Victoria's Secret catalogs and the SI swimsuit issue a few times. He moved from magazines to cable porn movies a few times a week. Then to internet porn almost every single day.

A few weeks before we split up, I was cleaning up old files on our computer and found a few in the internet cache that triggered a serious warning signal with me. He was watching both women and men with animals. He was also watching rape and abuse porn. It's part of the reason that when he abandoned me a few weeks later, I didn't beg him to come back the way I had the past two times he had left.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hellomynameis said:


> One of the other issues with porn is that like any other addiction the more you feed it the more it grows. Just like drugs - the longer you use them, the more you need to get high.
> 
> When I first married I caught my H with Victoria's Secret catalogs and the SI swimsuit issue a few times. He moved from magazines to cable porn movies a few times a week. Then to internet porn almost every single day.
> 
> A few weeks before we split up, I was cleaning up old files on our computer and found a few in the internet cache that triggered a serious warning signal with me. He was watching both women and men with animals. He was also watching rape and abuse porn. It's part of the reason that when he abandoned me a few weeks later, I didn't beg him to come back the way I had the past two times he had left.


My goodness! I would surely hope you would not want someone like that back!

Onward and upward, my dear!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> The way Daisy framed it, it is blame shifting. As she said, using porn could be the reason for ending the marriage in her post. How about the SO who deprioritizes sex in the relationship, or rejects? Sorry, they are the ones responsible, not the person who may be using porn as a way to meet their needs that the SO is neglecting.
> 
> 
> I do agree with this as I have stated before I do believe in some (many?) situations porn can be a negative in a relationship. I only have issues with, as I stated above, with spouses who deprioritize/neglect/reject the sexual needs of the other person but then gets all bent out of shape b/c that person turns to porn as a means to meet some of those needs.


Instead of putting a band-aid (porn) on the issue (partner who deprioritizes sex), why not be honest and address it head on? 

You stated that it's the responsibility of the person deprioritizing sex to get their spouse to stop looking at porn to meet their needs. What if that person doesn't know about the porn use, as in Daisy's case? It's not blame shifting if the partner doesn't know about the problem. 

I get it. It's easier to fap off to porn than to bring up the topic of sexual mismatch to a partner but that's not resolving the issue. Be honest about it. That's all most of the women here objecting to porn are saying. If you enjoy porn and/or use it as a means to get needs met, then be honest about it to your partner. If they don't like it, they can either free you (collective you) to meet someone more compatible, find a way to meet those needs so that porn is no longer necessary, or accept it as a part of life.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I agree that lying is generally bad. There are sadly though some of us in relationships where our spouses do not want sex. Do not think we should want sex. Do no think we should use porn. They also do not see anything wrong with their view of the universe and have no desire to discuss or change it. In this situation I don't see a problem with lying about porn. (or divorcing which in many cases is the right answer).


I think the problem is that many men see sex as an entitlement of marriage, something separate from love, romance, nurturing, caring, support. 

For many women, including myself, sex comes about as a result of those things. We do not see it as a separate entitlement. That would feel cheap and hollow to us.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Daisy12 said:


> If lying is the only way you can keep your spouse from leaving, are they even worth being with.


Totally agree.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> Instead of putting a band-aid (porn) on the issue (partner who deprioritizes sex), why not be honest and address it head on?
> 
> You stated that it's the responsibility of the person deprioritizing sex to get their spouse to stop looking at porn to meet their needs. What if that person doesn't know about the porn use, as in Daisy's case? It's not blame shifting if the partner doesn't know about the problem.
> 
> I get it. It's easier to fap off to porn than to bring up the topic of sexual mismatch to a partner but that's not resolving the issue. Be honest about it. That's all most of the women here objecting to porn are saying. If you enjoy porn and/or use it as a means to get needs met, then be honest about it to your partner. If they don't like it, they can either free you (collective you) to meet someone more compatible, find a way to meet those needs so that porn is no longer necessary, or accept it as a part of life.


My POV, which I mentioned in response to Daisy, was under the assumption that the sex issues have actually been discussed (i.e. you have actually been honest to your partner).


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I agree with your point based on your experience. I am talking about more from the standpoint that the couple has discussed the issues and nothing has changed. I know the default response on TAM is "Well, then divorce the person" lol. However, everything else in the relationship could be going well, or it isn't something that the person wants to divorce over, so they find an alternative to meet their needs.


I'm a-okay with a spouse turning to porn if they've stated their needs and said they will resort to porn if those needs are not met. It's a take it or leave it situation but one where there are clear boundaries and consequences. 

I think it's selfish for a spouse to hide their porn use from a non-approving partner simply because life for them is grand, barring the sex. That's lying.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> How do you know that the person using the toy isn't fantasizing about someone else who is not their SO? Explain how that would be different then someone watching porn to masturbate? How about someone who actually needs visual stimulation in order to masturbate (i.e. just trying to conjure up images in your heads doesn't work)? I know the impression for some (not saying you, but I have seen a few females state so) is that all a guy needs is his hand and a bar of soap, and he is off to the races. That is not necessarily true.



I'm quoting my own post from upthread, in answer to your question.







> When I masturbate, I rarely think about men. Sometimes when I orgasm, the faces of men that I've been attracted to, kind of flash before my eyes. In the past, I had fantasies in my mind. Now I mostly think of disembodied erect penises. Because that's what I crave to have sex.
> 
> *I'm telling you this to make the point that we all have sexual imagery in our minds. **Especially* if you were born and raised in the last half of the 20th century. I think men call this their "spank bank".
> 
> ...




I'm not a saint. I don't expect sainthood from others.

I did want and expect as much fidelity of heart and mind as possible. That is MY "sexual preference". That is MY "sexual orientation".

I know, "good luck with that, lady". But that is what I truly, from my heart believe in. To me, that would be the ultimate turn-on; a real source of passion.

It's not easy living with the realization that what you want doesn't exist. 

I responded to the thread's OP. For what it's worth.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> I'm a-okay with a spouse turning to porn if they've stated their needs and said they will resort to porn if those needs are not met. It's a take it or leave it situation but one where there are clear boundaries and consequences.
> 
> I think it's selfish for a spouse to hide their porn use from a non-approving partner simply because life for them is grand, barring the sex. That's lying.


See, I don't necessarily agree with part of this. If you have discussed your needs with your SO, and for one reason or the other they do not make any effort to meet, you don't have to come out and tell them "Well, if you won't meet my needs I am using porn". Does the person also have to say "Well, if you don't meet my needs I am going to masturbate"??? I am not saying lie about it, if the topic comes up be honest. Do I think though that the SO has an obligation to tell their spouse exactly what they are going to do b/c the spouse has decided to deprioritized their needs, no, that falls on the spouse who is the selfish one.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> See, I don't necessarily agree with part of this. If you have discussed your needs with your SO, and for one reason or the other they do not make any effort to meet, you don't have to come out and tell them "Well, if you won't meet my needs I am using porn". Does the person also have to say "Well, if you don't meet my needs I am going to masturbate"??? I am not saying lie about it, if the topic comes up be honest. Do I think though that the SO has an obligation to tell their spouse exactly what they are going to do b/c the spouse has decided to deprioritized their needs, no, that falls on the spouse who is the selfish one.


The more transparent the communication in marriage is, the more opportunity for growth and the stronger the emotional connection.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I'm not a saint. I don't expect sainthood from others.
> 
> I did want and expect as much fidelity of heart and mind as possible. That is MY "sexual preference". That is MY "sexual orientation".
> 
> ...


See, I actually understand and agree with much of this, so I am not knocking your POV. However, do I think it is reality to expect that every time someone masturbates (male or female) it is solely based on the image of their SO, no. Also, I can tell you that as much as I find my W incredibly sexy, using that image alone mentally isn't always enough when it comes to masturbating. It has nothing to do with porn as if I am some sort of porn addict as I rarely watch. However, sometimes visual stimulation is needed, plain and simple.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> See, I actually understand and agree with much of this, so I am not knocking your POV. However, do I think it is reality to expect that every time someone masturbates (male or female) it is solely based on the image of their SO, no. Also, I can tell you that *as much as I find my W incredibly sexy, using that image alone mentally isn't always enough when it comes to masturbating. *It has nothing to do with porn as if I am some sort of porn addict as I rarely watch. However, sometimes visual stimulation is needed, plain and simple.


Why not? Mental images of her are visually stimulating, no?


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Also, I can tell you that as much as I find my W incredibly sexy, using that image alone mentally isn't always enough when it comes to masturbating. It has nothing to do with porn as if I am some sort of porn addict as I rarely watch. However, sometimes visual stimulation is needed, plain and simple.




See, I think it is sad that your beautiful, sexy wife, and the thought of her, is not enough.

So, to be honest, let's just admit that we'd like to have sex with lots of other people than our significant others. Porn allows this in a virtual, vicarious sense.

If "visual stimulation" is needed, plain and simple; what did men do 150 years ago? [I picked 150 years because I don't think it would be possible for 95% + men to have access to pornography at that point.]


They were probably so exhausted from working, and had so little free time, and very few options for leisure time activities---that the need for visual stimulation beyond their wife probably didn't enter their minds. {the very wealthy and powerful have always been exceptions}

IOW, the "need" for porn, is a created need. It isn't a need at all.


It doesn't matter. Like I've already said, human beings are attracted to people other than their spouse.

Thoughts of those people are probably gonna come up if you masturbate; at least sometimes.

Pornography takes this weakness in marriage; and exploits it a million fold. And in doing so creates some of the nastiest, cruelest, sickest behavior---- to satiate the ever increasing "need" for stimulation and variety.


And I know we're never going back. It's probably going to get much worse from the point of view of someone like me.


You're on the winning side Ellis, congratulations.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> See, I don't necessarily agree with part of this. If you have discussed your needs with your SO, and for one reason or the other they do not make any effort to meet, you don't have to come out and tell them "Well, if you won't meet my needs I am using porn". Does the person also have to say "Well, if you don't meet my needs I am going to masturbate"??? I am not saying lie about it, if the topic comes up be honest. Do I think though that the SO has an obligation to tell their spouse exactly what they are going to do b/c the spouse has decided to deprioritized their needs, no, that falls on the spouse who is the selfish one.


We'll have to agree to disagree. Having boundaries that you can't enforce with a consequence makes them useless. Have you read the book Boundaries by Cloud?

I think this comes down to the differences in communication styles in marriage. Some people think that needs and consequences of those needs not being met should be clearly stated. Others think stating the needs in enough. For eg. there are plenty of threads on here where men/women are blind-sided by their walk away spouses. Most eventually admit they knew about the issues in the marriage but never thought the problems were so bad as to _result_ in divorce. 

I used to believe that stating needs was enough but then I realized that instead of dropping divorce papers on him, it would best to give my husband fair warning of the consequences of unmet needs. At least then, he'd have all of the information available to make an informed decision.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> IOW, the "need" for porn, is a created need. It isn't a need at all.


Word.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> See, I think it is sad that your beautiful, sexy wife, and the thought of her, is not enough.
> 
> So, to be honest, let's just admit that we'd like to have sex with lots of other people than our significant others. Porn allows this in a virtual, vicarious sense.
> 
> ...


You lost me on the bolded, why am I on the winning side 

As far as the being sad part, have you never heard someone say they couldn't orgasm or they just couldn't get into sex b/c their mind just wasn't in it (distracted)? Please tell me how that is any different. Once again, I think some of you think for a guy jerking off is a couple of strokes with a mental image, that easy. Once you start relying on mental images , just as my first point, sometimes it gets difficult to focus as other things creep into your mind (work, family, etc...). Also, I never said "visual stimulation" is needed, as if it is a must every time, you are drawing that conclusion. I said that at times it is needed where mentally it is not enough (for the same reasons as I listed out).


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> You lost me on the bolded, why am I on the winning side
> 
> As far as the being sad part, have you never heard someone say they couldn't orgasm or they just couldn't get into sex b/c their mind just wasn't in it (distracted)? Please tell me how that is any different. Once again, I think some of you think for a guy jerking off is a couple of strokes with a mental image, that easy. Once you start relying on mental images , just as my first point, sometimes it gets difficult to focus as other things creep into your mind (work, family, etc...). Also, I never said "visual stimulation" is needed, as if it is a must every time, you are drawing that conclusion. I said that at times it is needed where mentally it is not enough (for the same reasons as I listed out).




You're on the winning side because the vast majority of society believes porn is good. Your decision to use it, is, for the most part seen as normal, masculine, healthy.

If you don't have sufficient sexual tension built up, then yes, it will be difficult to masturbate without outside stimulation.

I guess my question would be, if you're not horny enough to masturbate without porn; then can't you wait for your wife to come to bed, or until tomorrow?

I had a small toy that had a clitoral stimulator and a g-spot stimulator combined {about 3" insertable}.

It would take about 90 seconds to orgasm. No thoughts required other than, this feels great, this is amazing, boy am I sexy......done.


Try a stroker sleeve?? Or another male toy. Maybe try masturbating with just the pleasure of your own body to build and bring you to orgasm?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

So many different situations. 

Some people see sex as something that adds to romance. Some see it is integrally connected to romance, can't have one without the other. Some see sex as an entitlement. Some see sex as unimportant, a random thing to do together like playing mini-golf. Some simply think sex is bad, and not part of a romantic relationship. 




jld said:


> I think the problem is that many men see sex as an entitlement of marriage, something separate from love, romance, nurturing, caring, support.
> 
> For many women, including myself, sex comes about as a result of those things. We do not see it as a separate entitlement. That would feel cheap and hollow to us.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There is porn from at least 2000 years ago in ancient Greece and Rome. 

In renaissance art there are a large number of statues and paintings of beautiful naked women and men.

There is a room in the Vatican with somewhat pornographic paintings by Raphael. 

Its possible that the early neolithic "fat women" figures were pornographic. (or goddesses? we have no idea - no writing form that time, just carved figures of naked women). 





notmyrealname4 said:


> snip
> 
> If "visual stimulation" is needed, plain and simple; what did men do 150 years ago? [I picked 150 years because I don't think it would be possible for 95% + men to have access to pornography at that point.]


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Is there a difference between porn and a sex toy? Is looking at an image of a person different from a device that produces a physical sensation of being with another person? 

Is masturbating with a dildo modeled on some other man's penis different from masturbating while watching another woman?

To me they are all in the same category - sex toys that facilitate fantasy and masturbation. 

All OK if they do not interfere with ones sex life, and not OK if they do interfere. 




notmyrealname4 said:


> SNIP
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> EllisRedding said:
> 
> 
> > You lost me on the bolded, why am I on the winning side
> ...


Couple of things. I never said I believe porn is good, healthy and masculine, so not sure why you are applying that to me as if I am a winner in this lol. I do think that there are people who can use porn in a healthy manner. I do also believe there are people who use porn in a destructive manner. People make up their own mind whether or not to use porn, who am I to judge them for that?

Also, IMO, in an ideal situation porn/masturbation would not be necessary in a relationship because the needs of both people are being met. There are people where that is definitely the case, but there are many other relationships where that is not true. Do you think you would have the need to masturbate if you and your H had a fantastic sexlife?

In terms of myself, I rarely masturbate or watch porn (my choice, although there is probably justification that I should do it more lol). As things are now relying on my W is not a good option, nor is trying to sneak around with some sort of toy in a house full of children lol.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

I like sex scenes in TV shows and movies, the more realistic elements. 

I have looked at the stuff my husband watches and it turns me off, mostly because the women over act or don't seem to be enjoying it, some of it is just unrealistic. It feels cold and abrasive. I mean it's vanilla, just a hetero couple humping, but it just doesn't do it for me. 

I don't mind my husband indulging as long as it doesn't interfere with our sex life. 

He watches it around every 6 weeks, so not too much at all. 
Before when our sex life was lacking, he would watch it 1 or 2 times a week. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

jld said:


> Word.


I'll add that I think this argument that one is so high drive they need porn is false and meant to bolster egos. If you need porn to get stimulated you're not that high drive.....you're creating an artificial drive.

Someone with a real drive could take care of themselves in the shower. True they might find porn more exciting but they don't actually need it to have an orgasm.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Good Guy said:


> There are two types of men, the type that use porn and the type that lie about it. If a man who is married to a wonderful woman in every other way but would divorce him for watching porn, I could see how he could lie about it. As other posters said, it's not something to be proud of.
> 
> I can imagine a man with very low T might not use porn, but for the average man, who is not having sex on a regular basis, he uses porn.
> 
> ...


True, but he'd be better off either telling his wife that this is a major problem in their marriage, and either they try to fix it or end it. That's just my opinion. If someone needs to turn to porn to replace an important part of his/her relationship, that is a sad way to spend your life, imo. It's not just hurting his wife, it is actually hurting your friend, because he is deceiving himself into thinking that this will bring him happiness. Masturbating to women on a screen on a regular basis isn't something a married guy should have to do, tbh.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Lila said:


> Deidre
> 
> Do yourself a favor and ask your partner about his porn use NOW, before you two commit to hopefully, a long life together. Like I said previously, porn use is a compatibility issue just like religion and lifestyle. There are highs and lows in LTR and it's best if you and he are in agreement about this topic. Go into the marriage with as much knowledge about your partner as you possibly can. My 2 cents.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


We were good friends for a few years prior to us dating each other, and I don't think this topic ever came up even then. I will ask him, okay. lol


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

uhtred said:


> There is porn from at least 2000 years ago in ancient Greece and Rome.
> 
> In renaissance art there are a large number of statues and paintings of beautiful naked women and men.
> 
> ...




I knew the ancient Greek pottery and the Roman wall frescoes would get brought up eventually.

Are you seriously comparing the somewhat poor renderings of millenia old art, to 21st century streaming 24/7 porn; featuring every perversion of the imagination that you could imagine?

Did people find oil paintings of nudes mildly erotic? Probably? Sculptures of erect penises? Yes, I imagine. 


I doubt they took out a subscription and had a new "dirty vase" delivered to their home every month.


But even if they did; would it be okay for them to keep doing so if it hurt their spouse's sense of self-worth and desirability?

Of course, once again, women just have to "put up" with it. I know that now.

It makes more and more sense to me that women invested their love and emotion in their children. And I can understand why you would love and value a daughter more; as a woman.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Porn is not the equivalent of a vibrator/d/ldo.
> The equivalent of a vibrator/d/ldo....is a "male masturbator" . Link probably *NSFW*
> 
> Page 2 of Realistic Masturbators Adam & Eve





notmyrealname4 said:


> I had a small toy that had a clitoral stimulator and a g-spot stimulator combined {about 3" insertable}.
> 
> It would take about 90 seconds to orgasm. *No thoughts required other than, this feels great, this is amazing, boy am I sexy......done.*
> 
> ...






uhtred said:


> Is there a difference between porn and a sex toy? Is looking at an image of a person different from a device that produces a physical sensation of being with another person?
> 
> Is masturbating with a dildo modeled on some other man's penis different from masturbating while watching another woman?
> 
> ...





I already described *my* reasons for believing that porn and sex toys are different. I quoted from two of my previous posts above.

Here is another quote from another post of mine upthread.




> Yes, I agree. Porn or solo use of sex toys: they are replacing a portion of your mutual sex life. For both men and women.
> *
> All I am saying is to make the equivalencies accurate*:
> 
> ...





I deliberately avoided buying a sex toy that was modeled after a porn actors penis. No thanks.

Those are my reasons and explanations. I don't know how other women feel about it.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The Roman and Greek art was as good as they could produce at the time. I'm sure today's porn will seem pretty uninteresting by future standards " are you comparing flat non-interactive videos on a screen to 3-d AI created porn that acts out the viewers personal fantasies...."

There is straight porn, lesbian porn (for lesbian women, as well as the stuff directed at straight men), gay porn etc. I don't think there is anything particular that women have to put up with. 

There is some porn whose production is abusive - I fully support getting rid of that. 

There are some people who substitute porn for sex with their partners, and that is a serious problem.

There are some people who believe porn represents real life and want their partners to act that way. That is the same sort of problem as for anyone who believes various fantasies in movies represent reality and act on that belief. No, you are not going to be a rock star, serving in the military is not like a Steven Segal movie and that ex-con is not a really a misunderstood loving person who will treat you well. 

All that said, I do understand that people who have experienced the above problems from porn will reasonably have very negative feelings towards it.













notmyrealname4 said:


> I knew the ancient Greek pottery and the Roman wall frescoes would get brought up eventually.
> 
> Are you seriously comparing the somewhat poor renderings of millenia old art, to 21st century streaming 24/7 porn; featuring every perversion of the imagination that you could imagine?
> 
> ...


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> The way Daisy framed it, it is blame shifting. As she said, using porn could be the reason for ending the marriage in her post.


I just want to clarify that I would in no way leave my husband over his past porn use. I played a part in why he turned to it, it would be unfair to do so now. What I struggle with is rebuilding back the trust and respect for my husband because of the lies. He has not only hid the porn, he on numerous occasions lied to my face. If my marriage does not succeed it will be because, 

1. He has started lying and hiding things from me again

2. I am unable to get back the trust and respect for my husband and I refuse to live always wondering if he is lying, nor would my constant doubt be fair to him.

If at some point my husband comes to me with saying he feels like he would want to watch porn every once in a while, well I think if our relationship is going well, my needs are being fulfilled and our sex life is still good I would be open to compromising.


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## ulyssesheart (Jan 7, 2017)

FeministInPink said:


> No, he's not holding back, not at all. He WANTS to. Very badly. It is very, very difficult for him to orgasm. There have been instances when I've watched him masturbate and it's taken him over an hour to climax. And it's not because I'm watching him--being watched is a turn on for him. If I hadn't been watching, he might not have climaxed at all in those instances.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


If it is not psychosomatic it is physical. Likely, some sort of neuropathy, nerve damage. 

If not anxiety issues I would look at the following- medications, nerve damage, lack of semen as in way too little. If he has a lot of semen in his prostate it will want to come out. If he has to really work at it then blame nerve signaling or lack of semen. The penis needs to be hard to stimulate those nerves properly. His prostate needs looking at. Send him to a Men's Health Clinic for evaluation.

You need a good urologist and neurologist that will work together. The neurologist needs to specializes in ED issues. Do not take no or I don't know as an answer.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> See, I think it is sad that your beautiful, sexy wife, and the thought of her, is not enough.
> 
> *So, to be honest, let's just admit that we'd like to have sex with lots of other people than our significant others..*


One thing, and I want to call you out on this, is the above statement. It is unfair because you have your own judgments or insecurities that you imply that everyone else just wants to have loads of sex with other people. I am sorry, but with comments like this you are just twisting things around for some odd reason.


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## Hellomynameis (Dec 16, 2016)

Do you think if the wife has been very clear that she hates porn and he has always avoided it for her sake, it would be acceptable for him to ask her permission if for some reason OUT OF HER CONTROL she was going to be sexually unavailable to him for several months (severe illness, female soldier on deployment)?

If she refuses to allow him porn at such times, is he within his rights to use it anyway? Or even to leave her over it, since obviously we're all going to agree that cheating is not the answer?


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> One thing, and I want to call you out on this, is the above statement. It is unfair because you have your own judgments or insecurities that *you imply that everyone else just wants to have loads of sex with other people.* I am sorry, but with comments like this you are just twisting things around for some odd reason.




When you watch porn, you watch lots of different women...right? And I'm going to have to assume {since I obviously haven't watched you}, that you have masturbated and ejaculated to *many* different women when you have used porn over the years?

So, based on that, you have sexual longings for, and have gotten sexual gratification from, the naked bodies and sexual performances of many women who are not your wife.

You have not gone out and physically had sexual contact with a different woman than your wife.

But your porn habits and behavior indicate that some part of you really would _*like to*_------if you spend a significant amount of time, over the years masturbating/o'ing to women in porn.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> When you watch porn, you watch lots of different women...right? And I'm going to have to assume {since I obviously haven't watched you}, that you have masturbated and ejaculated to *many* different women when you have used porn over the years?
> 
> So, based on that, you have sexual longings for, and have gotten sexual gratification from, the naked bodies and sexual performances of many women who are not your wife.
> 
> ...


Looking at porn for visual stimulation does not equate to wanting to have sex with that person or many other people. Your exact words were "So, to be honest, let's just admit that we'd like to have sex with lots of other people than our significant others". I am sorry if you are unable to draw the distinction and instead try to make a ridiculous comparison. I am not even sure why I am having this debate with you since I rarely look at porn or masturbate, but it amazes me these wide sweeping assumptions/generalizations you are making.

So if two people are having sex and for whatever reason the female is unable to orgasm (lets say she just couldn't get into it, mind was elsewhere, house, kids, etc...), I assume you would equate that as sad, right? I mean, cmon, her H mentally/visually (or even actually being physically there) should be more then enough...


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Looking at porn for visual stimulation does not equate to wanting to have sex with that person or many other people. Your exact words were "So, to be honest, let's just admit that we'd like to have sex with lots of other people than our significant others". I am sorry if you are unable to draw the distinction and instead try to make a ridiculous comparison. I am not even sure why I am having this debate with you since I rarely look at porn or masturbate, but it amazes me these wide sweeping assumptions/generalizations you are making.
> 
> So if two people are having sex and for whatever reason the female is unable to orgasm (lets say she just couldn't get into it, mind was elsewhere, house, kids, etc...), I assume you would equate that as sad, right? I mean, cmon, her H mentally/visually (or even actually being physically there) should be more then enough...




Yes, I view getting visually stimulated enough to have an orgasm as evidence that you are attracted to that person.....and would like to have sex with them. In fact you are having a form of sex with them.....virtual sex.


Yes, we completely disagree. I guess that's all I can say.

A woman who regularly has orgasmless sex? Yes, that is sad. Hopefully her husband should be enough. Occasionally, she might not have an orgasm if she is really tired, or coming down with a sickness. But as a regular conclusion of sex, orgasmlessness is undesirable.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'll add that I think this argument that one is so high drive they need porn is false and meant to bolster egos. If you need porn to get stimulated you're not that high drive.....you're creating an artificial drive.
> 
> Someone with a real drive could take care of themselves in the shower. True they might find porn more exciting but they don't actually need it to have an orgasm.


I experienced the high drive.. this is how I would explain it...I lusted after the visual.. I wanted to FEED IT...It felt electric.. certain scenes would shoot vibes right to my private parts.. I loved everything about it... 

I adore my husband... he became God like to me, I lusted after him so bad.. poor thing ! .. I wrote him the most romantic erotic sexy letter during this time..I wanted to experience EVERYTHING WITH HIM... so even though I wanted to feed this ... *I also wanted the emotional intimacy at the same time* ..(is this what makes the difference I ask?) I would get very emotional if I felt he didn't want me too.. His desire was like a lifeline to me.... 

I was also undressing good looking men when I went out .. I couldn't mentally help it.... It was like my mind was hi-jacked.. I will never forget this CRAZY experience.. I was starting to wonder if I became Bi-polar and needed meds to calm this...it lasted 8 straight months... then slowly began to calm where I could concentrate on other things...

This experience has helped me understand Men-especially in their prime...I wish I had my testosterone levels checked at that time.. I had other symptoms.. that were high TEST...I felt more confidence.. I felt like I was walking on air, hardly needed sleep, didn't need any foreplay at all- lubricated 24 hrs a day... antsy.. it was kinda tormenting, my underarms had a fouler smell, and I was HOT to the touch often -he would tell me I was too hot.... ...

I wanted to feed that lust.. I could have had orgasms without it -yes.. but that's just not as fun.. 

If I had all this and didn't care about intimacy and the emotional.. I would have became a porn addict (Yeah I can see how that could happen.. sex & Pleasure is very addicting !) .. since I cared AS MUCH about OUR intimacy ...riding these waves together ...this was the ultimate high....instead it was just a really great time for us..


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Yes, I view getting visually stimulated enough to have an orgasm as evidence that you are attracted to that person.....and would like to have sex with them. In fact you are having a form of sex with them.....virtual sex.
> 
> 
> Yes, we completely disagree. I guess that's all I can say.
> ...


No, I am not talking about someone who can't orgasm regularly. Per the bolded though, you classified that as sad when I made the same comment, but now it is not?


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> No, I am not talking about someone who can't orgasm regularly. Per the bolded though, you classified that as sad when I made the same comment, but now it is not?




I'm getting lost here; but will try to answer you.

I think it is sad if someone has sex without orgasms.

I understand that it might happen sometimes.

If it's a regular occurrence that isn't right.


That's my opinion, I don't know where I said that I think it's okay for a woman to have sex without orgasms. Or a man for that matter.

If they can't have an orgasm; for whatever reason [ as an example, just using being sick or tired or .....I don't know?] Then that's not good. 


I don't know what else to say.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> Good Guy said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, of course. I have done. My daughter has no illusions about men. I wish someone had told me the same about the true nature of women.
> ...


Not when it comes to this there isn't. I could masturbate without porn, but why do that? It's a fundamental urge. All I hear is shaming from women who fundamentally misunderstand how most normal T men are. There is no way you can honestly say what you are saying if you understand anything about the male sex drive. 

Every day I live as an adult married man I've controlled my sex drive to stop hitting on attractive women. This is the reality. Particularly when my wife was denying me sex. Porn is a great assistance in that.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> EllisRedding said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, I don't agree. If a female is using a vibrator to take care of herself, to replace a portion of her sex life with her H, it is no different than a guy watching porn to do the same. It doesn't matter the means, the end result is the same.
> ...


So when you use a dildo to masturbate, what are you thinking of????? Nothing??? Or Brad Pitt??? Be honest


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> lifeistooshort said:
> 
> 
> > I'll add that I think this argument that one is so high drive they need porn is false and meant to bolster egos. If you need porn to get stimulated you're not that high drive.....you're creating an artificial drive.
> ...


Finally! Someone female who gets it! And your T was still a fraction of a healthy male - men have on average 15 times as much testosterone as women! Women normally have no clue what it's like. One of the great myths of our society is that men and women are the same. If they could live a day of my life they would see how dumb that is.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I'm getting lost here; but will try to answer you.
> 
> I think it is sad if someone has sex without orgasms.
> 
> ...


I am not sure where the confusion is. The below is your exact quote:



> See, I think it is sad that your beautiful, sexy wife, and the thought of her, is not enough


So if there are times where a mental image is not enough, you call that "sad". So by that fact, if at any point someone (male or female) cannot orgasm b/c maybe they are distracted and can't mentally get as into it (which I would guess most people here can at least relate to times like that), you consider that sad  I would guess then everyone else here (male or female) should be able to masturbate to completion (without a toy) with just the thought of their SO, every single time


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Good Guy said:
> 
> 
> > There are two types of men, the type that use porn and the type that lie about it. If a man who is married to a wonderful woman in every other way but would divorce him for watching porn, I could see how he could lie about it. As other posters said, it's not something to be proud of.
> ...


I agree 100%. He's quite religious so struggles hard with this and sees divorce as a bigger sin than what he's doing. I've advised him to do the 180.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Good Guy said:


> So when you use a dildo to masturbate, what are you thinking of????? Nothing??? Or Brad Pitt??? Be honest


I guess not. See, it is much easier to hide behind the whole "Well I masturbated with a toy so it is different then watching porn to masturbate" b/c you are the only person who knows mentally what you are using. I guess you could then argue that a toy shouldn't be needed at all,just loving thoughts of your SO and your hand should always do the trick. Using an external source (i.e. vibrator) is not the same as using an external source (porn), even though the purpose and end result is the same


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I am not sure where the confusion is. The below is your exact quote:
> 
> 
> 
> So if there are times where a mental image is not enough, you call that "sad". So by that fact, if at any point someone (male or female) cannot orgasm b/c maybe they are distracted and can't mentally get as into it (which I would guess most people here can at least relate to times like that), you consider that sad  That is basically what you have said. If you think it sad, so be it, but really I find it way off base. Another point we can agree to disagree on.






You are being quite the mental pit-bull about something that you have said you don't really care about because you neither watch porn or masturbate much.

It is a topic I care about. Because I have experienced quite a bit of unhappiness from it; so I'll attempt to explain myself again.

I fully stand by my statement that I think it's sad that thoughts of your beautiful, sexy wife aren't enough for you to masturbate to when [for whatever reason] she is temporarily unavailable to you.


It's also sad/depressing/disappointing, when people have partnered sex, and don't have an orgasm. It happens sometimes if they aren't feeling well-perhaps ill, perhaps tired. But we would hope that under normal circumstances, their sexual responsiveness would be restored, and that they could go back to having orgasms during partnered sex.


Are you saying that you think these two statements are equal:


You can't get off to thoughts of your wife, so you use porn when you masturbate.

---and----

Your wife is sick or tired and can't get off when having sex with you.


I don't think of them as equal. And you disagree with me. I think that is okay.


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## hifromme67 (Oct 30, 2016)

Saibasu said:


> For me, I'm against porn. Always have been. And my husband has known this from verrryy early on in our relationship. Yes it makes me feel inadequate, like I'm not enough. And simply the fact that porn takes sexual tensions away without needing me makes me feel....... Unecessary for lack of a better word. Despite knowing just how crushing it is to me a few years ago I found out he's basically obsessed with it. We stopped having sex, he would get FRUSTRATED with me DURING sex, like I was competing with some invisible force I could never measure up to. 3 months ago I contacted a divorce lawyer and scared the living **** out of him.
> 
> I never deny my husband sex. If he wants it anyway, everyway, every day of the week or more Im always game. And I gladly meet his needs be it sex, BJ, HJ even without reciprocation on every occasion. We are never out of town without each other and we talk about sex and our fantasies openly and freely.
> 
> ...




I am 100% with you. My husband is in therapy for porn addiction and our marriage is hanging by a thread. Not only is porn disgusting, it is a sin. Of course not everyone will see it that way and that's okay. To each their own but you do what is best for you and your marriage. I back you completely.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> You are being quite the mental pit-bull about something that you have said you don't really care about because you neither watch porn or masturbate much.
> 
> It is a topic I care about. Because I have experienced quite a bit of unhappiness from it; so I'll attempt to explain myself again.
> 
> ...


My interest in this conversation with you is in part I generally agree with much that you say, and I understand you are basing your posts on this based off of your experience, but b/c of that you are also making a lot of generalizations which is what I have been questioning.

In all fairness as well, I think it is sad that you think it is sad that you have reduced sex (masturbation or otherwise) down to something as simple as a couple mental images. As well, apparently it is ok if you use a vibrator to masturbate (b/c that is what works for you) but if another person needs visual stimulation (b/c that is what works for them) it is somehow lesser ...

Hopefully no hard feelings here, I enjoy these debates. Your logic and my logic on this just don't jive.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Good Guy said:


> With that mindset we shouldn't watch any Hollywood movies. On my first trip to the States I was amazed there were so many ordinary, overweight and normal looking people just like back home. I was comparing Hollywood movies to the reality. *Another thing struck me was how friendly and polite everyone was*, exactly unlike the movies. Fantasy vs reality. If you can't tell the difference you got bigger problems.


Obviously you weren't in NYC. >


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> In all fairness as well, I think it is sad that you think it is sad that you have reduced sex (masturbation or otherwise) down to something as simple* as a couple mental images.* As well, apparently it is ok if you use a vibrator to masturbate (b/c that is what works for you) but if another person needs visual stimulation (b/c that is what works for them) it is somehow lesser ...
> 
> Hopefully no hard feelings here, I enjoy these debates. Your logic and my logic on this just don't jive.




I said nothing about " a couple" of images, lol. I would have thought that you would have_ hundreds_ of sexy images of your wife to c.um with. But if it's only a couple; then I am wrong about that. Sorry.


I think I've said a few times now that we all have stored sexy images and memories. Those will usually, but not always, go through your mind when you feel aroused and masturbate. I readily admit that.

I don't see any reason to add to it by using porn. You think it's okay to use porn to get additional sexual stimulation. So we are opposed again.

I'm guessing your wife is okay with you using porn. Sorry again, Ellis--I don't remember all the details of your situation.

I've never wanted my husband to use porn. Which doesn't matter to him. I've described in quite a bit of detail upthread, that I understand he can't help longing and lusting after pretty women he sees in real life.

And I just can't help but wonder why he couldn't limit his sexspiration to that mental spank bank.


I truly, truly see porn as something invasive, unpleasant and hurtful to a marriage. Ya think!!:laugh:

I think I'm out of step with most people. Which wouldn't bother me. But being out of step with my husband, is really lonely and painful.


Oh well, in a hundred years from now, no-one will care what any of us thought or did about anything.:ezpi_wink1: Sometimes I think that to cheer myself up.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Miss Independent said:


> @notmyrealname4 don't take this the wrong way but why in the world are you still with your husband?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I guess I waited too long to get out. So now I'm making the best of it.

I made my bed; now I get to lie in it.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> If porn use reduces interest in having sex with your spouse, that's a real problem - IF, of course, your spouse actually wants to have sex with you. My view is that if that kind of problem does not result, then if someone wants to use porn, they have that right. No one should dictate what you do with your own body and mind - aside from any mutual agreement you have made. We hear "Women's bodies, women's choice," about everything these days. Guess what? *That applies to men, too*.


No, it doesn't, because patriarchy! >


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

toblerone said:


> I don't think I'd feel inadequate if I caught my wife using porn. It'd probably be the type of porn where people complain all the time since that's what it seems she gets off on these days.


That's a genre I haven't heard of before.

But I wouldn't be surprised if it existed.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I said nothing about " a couple" of images, lol. I would have thought that you would have_ hundreds_ of sexy images of your wife to c.um with. But if it's only a couple; then I am wrong about that. Sorry.
> 
> 
> I think I've said a few times now that we all have stored sexy images and memories. Those will usually, but not always, go through your mind when you feel aroused and masturbate. I readily admit that.
> ...


There are plenty of images you can have of your spouse that are sexy that are not necessarily spank bank worthy. There are only, for example. so many ways I can imagine my W naked or in a sexual manner, so how you are coming up with hundreds of images seems like you are just pulling a number out of thin air  Like I said, you are trying to simplify things down way too much, and are in a bit if of a fantasy world if you think mental images should always be enough (once again, for some reason discounting that relying on mental images also opens your mind up to many other unrelated thoughts that can lead to distraction). IIRC, one other member here wasn't a fan of their SO watching porn, but wouldn't have a problem necessarily if they used it when the other person was traveling (i.e. unavailable). By your logic, this should be completely unnecessary and could mean that something must be wrong if they can't just simply recall some images. I get that is what you believe, not saying you are wrong, just that I don't agree and believe it is off base.

I am real sorry you had to deal with things with your H. In your situation porn was clearly damaging. In other scenarios for other people it can be as well. That doesn't mean that people can't still use porn responsibly, whereas you seem to cast a wide net over anyone who would use porn.

All this talk, I kinda wanna watch some porn now >


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

A hundred years ago (like for instance people of my grandfather's generation) men still had periods of sexlessness, and they managed to take care of things without watching porn. Men CAN masturbate without watching porn.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

tech-novelist said:


> No, it doesn't, because patriarchy! >


LOL!


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## Hellomynameis (Dec 16, 2016)

I very rarely orgasmed wth my husband. He didn't care he pretty much stopped and went to sleep the minute he was done. I took much longer than him. But he didn't understand why I didn't want sex.

I don't masturbate to mental images. I masturbate to romantic storylines with in my head generally with characters I am attracted to rather than the real person. For example Agent Gibbs rather than Mark Harmon. In my fantasies there is always love involved not just sex. I've had romantic fantasies involving men that weren't even all that attractive. But, all this is something that I've only given free rein to since my husband and I split up.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

ulyssesheart said:


> If it is not psychosomatic it is physical. Likely, some sort of neuropathy, nerve damage.
> 
> If not anxiety issues I would look at the following- medications, nerve damage, lack of semen as in way too little. If he has a lot of semen in his prostate it will want to come out. If he has to really work at it then blame nerve signaling or lack of semen. The penis needs to be hard to stimulate those nerves properly. His prostate needs looking at. Send him to a Men's Health Clinic for evaluation.
> 
> You need a good urologist and neurologist that will work together. The neurologist needs to specializes in ED issues. Do not take no or I don't know as an answer.


He said that he's had his prostate checked and that it's fine. From what I've observed, the amount of semen strikes me as a little less than average, but not so little as to set off warning bells. Based on the way that he talks about it--I get consistent commentary during and after regarding what he's doing and how it feels, literally, all over his body--I'm inclined to think it's nerve-related.

I'll keep working on him.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Good Guy said:


> There have been several threads on here about what it seems to be mainly wives wanting divorces because their husbands have been watching porn.
> 
> Personally, my wife doesn't have a problem with me watching porn, or me her, and I do it from time to time, if our sex life is really frequent I basically don't use it at all but have had dry spells in the past where I would have used it 3 or 4 times a week. She has told me she's looked at it a few times but it didn't do anything for her. She's more into erotic books.
> 
> ...



If a woman takes care of herself, in great shape, dresses sexy and wants adventurous sex with a high sex drive, for me, zero porn.

If a woman doesn't take care of herself, isn't in great shape, doesn't dress that sexy and only wants conservative sex once in a while, porn is a substitute.

When in a relationship or married, the wife is to take care of her hubbies needs as her own. She is not her own anymore. Same goes for us guys.

Would I view porn if I had a wife that wants a lot of adventurous sex often and is in great shape? NO.

Will I stop relieving myself and viewing porn from time to time with Mrs.CuddleBug needing to lose 80+ lbs and only wanting sex 1x month? NO.

Its not a control or power issue with me. Its my needs not being met.....


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

I have a hard time masturbating to just thoughts of my husband. Not because I don't find him sexy or because sex isn't hot enough with him. Variety is nice. It's just fantasy. Porn helps. I can O with no other stimulation but porn helps with arousal which leads to better Os. I certainly am not wanting to have sex with anyone in the vids I watch. 

Maybe because I understand porn, I don't feel threatened by it.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Livvie said:


> A hundred years ago (like for instance people of my grandfather's generation) men still had periods of sexlessness, and they managed to take care of things without watching porn. Men CAN masturbate without watching porn.


Yes they just imagined having enthusiastic sex with that "*****" their frigid wife hated. Or some such fantasy.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Hellomynameis said:


> I very rarely orgasmed wth my husband. He didn't care he pretty much stopped and went to sleep the minute he was done. I took much longer than him. But he didn't understand why I didn't want sex.
> 
> I don't masturbate to mental images. I masturbate to romantic storylines with in my head generally with characters I am attracted to rather than the real person. For example Agent Gibbs rather than Mark Harmon. In my fantasies there is always love involved not just sex. I've had romantic fantasies involving men that weren't even all that attractive. But, all this is something that I've only given free rein to since my husband and I split up.


How is that any better than porn? With porn there is no storyline, no fantasising about your wife's sister, best friend or mortal enemy. I really think women are incredibly hypocritical when it comes to porn. 

My wife once told me that if I fantasised about having sex with another woman while having sex with her she considered that cheating. This was something I had never done, or even considered. When I read her diary (long story) there were several entries where SHE did just that herself!

I got my revenge on that one ... especially focussed on women I knew would drive her nuts if she only knew ...

Most men I know have zero interest in controlling their wives. Most women I know think of little else other than controlling their husbands, yet it's always men who get accused of being controlling (a small minority are of course).

Porn and sex shaming is a great tool for this. Doesn't work on me.


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

CuddleBug said:


> If a woman takes care of herself, in great shape, dresses sexy and wants adventurous sex with a high sex drive, for me, zero porn.
> 
> If a woman doesn't take care of herself, isn't in great shape, doesn't dress that sexy and only wants conservative sex once in a while, porn is a substitute.
> 
> ...



Okay so if your spouse is not in "great shape" it gives you the right to look at porn? This sounds like a statement from a 3 or 5 rated man who has only attracted a 3 or 5 rated woman and because his wife is not a 10, he should be able to look at porn so he can fantasy about having sex with woman, who are in great shape, he could never in real life get as maybe he is overweight, maybe underemployed or an a**. 

Not in anyway saying this is you in my about statement but your statement upset me as I am reasonable attractive, maybe a 6/7, my husband thinks I'm a 8/9 and i am in reasonable shape, 10 to 15 pounds over weight, hour glass figure, but after multiple babies my body is never going to be a 10, nor am i ever going to be as a attractive as a 10 and if my husband wants to watch porn so he can get his fill of fantasying about being with woman hotter than me, than i guess he better have put more energy into having lots of money to get those girls. Or he could be happy and satisfied with the reasonable attractive wife he has that loves and adores him just the way he is, poor and all... 

I agree spouses need to take care of themselves, need to make time for sex but you can't commit to being with a 5 and then not be happy because they are not as hot as you would like. I know all men would like to have a 10 their arms, but be realiastic. If you're not a 10, don't expect your wife to be. I'm sure there are guys out there that are complaining about their wife's baby fat while sporting a beer gut. I hate this double standard that woman are expected to be perfect and men can let themselves go...

This is why porn can upset a lot of women, we can't compete with 10. We may get there with some hard work, but then who is going to clean your house, raise your kids, work full time to help support the family, and still pretend to be porn stars in the bedroom to keep you happy.. no one has that kind of time and if your wife makes any reasonable effort to try to stay in somewhat good shape i hope you appreciate it and make her feel like a 10.

Rant over....


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Good Guy said:


> Not when it comes to this there isn't. I could masturbate without porn, but why do that? It's a fundamental urge. All I hear is shaming from women who fundamentally misunderstand how most normal T men are. There is no way you can honestly say what you are saying if you understand anything about the male sex drive.
> 
> Every day I live as an adult married man I've controlled my sex drive to stop hitting on attractive women. This is the reality. Particularly when my wife was denying me sex. Porn is a great assistance in that.


Porn was not as available as it is today. Actually for most of human history it was not available at all. How did men do?

I understand men have urges, but it does not mean they have to go to porn to fullfill them.

Before porn many men justified prostitution to fill those urges. Prostitution was not right then and it is not right now. The same goes with porn.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> Porn was not as available as it is today. Actually for most of human history it was not available at all. How did men do?
> 
> I understand men have urges, but it does not mean they have to go to porn to fullfill them.
> 
> *Before porn many men justified prostitution to fill those urges. Prostitution was not right then and it is not right now. The same goes with porn.*


To the contrary. During the rule of the Roman Empire, it was considered a man's civic duty to visit the brothels and it was not shameful. Men were taught that they should enjoy sex, but to do so in moderation. Much like drinking alcohol, one is often encouraged to drink it socially but not in excess or compulsively. So prostitutes during the Roman Empire were likely viewed as being on par with serving alcohol at festivities. 

It is however very important to note that for the prostitutes themselves, that they were most likely slaves or viewed as a much lower class of society. So for the Romans it was likely viewed as exercising their "power" over other people, which was why it was every man's civic duty to visit the brothels.

Today in THAT context, porn is much less cruel. While most female porn stars can not live "normal" lives by any means, a sexually monogamous husband/wife team can produce porn for the masses. While not readily obvious due to role play and theatrics, there are monogamous porn stars out there that thrive off of their own fetish for exhibitionism and the attention/income that it garners. 

On the radio the other day they were interviewing a woman that her husband had posted nude photos of her online. At first she was furious, but she admitted that it was thrilling to read all the comments that people posted to the photos as they were all extremely positive. Meanwhile the woman being interviewed never imagined herself being attractive, so this experience was a huge confidence booster to her, but she insisted that her husband stop and NEVER told him that she actually enjoyed the experience. Comments and phone calls to this interview were very respectful and open minded about that experience due to the fact that today's generation seems very confident sexting nude photos of themselves as part of the courtship process of dating many people to see how others will respond to them before even going out together on a first date.

Badsanta


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Daisy12 said:


> Okay so if your spouse is not in "great shape" it gives you the right to look at porn? This sounds like a statement from a 3 or 5 rated man who has only attracted a 3 or 5 rated woman and because his wife is not a 10, he should be able to look at porn so he can fantasy about having sex with woman, who are in great shape, he could never in real life get as maybe he is overweight, maybe underemployed or an a**.
> 
> Not in anyway saying this is you in my about statement but your statement upset me as I am reasonable attractive, maybe a 6/7, my husband thinks I'm a 8/9 and i am in reasonable shape, 10 to 15 pounds over weight, hour glass figure, but after multiple babies my body is never going to be a 10, nor am i ever going to be as a attractive as a 10 and if my husband wants to watch porn so he can get his fill of fantasying about being with woman hotter than me, than i guess he better have put more energy into having lots of money to get those girls. Or he could be happy and satisfied with the reasonable attractive wife he has that loves and adores him just the way he is, poor and all...
> 
> ...



I hear what you are saying.

For me, I expect my woman to take care of herself and not let herself go. 

What attracts men to the ladies? They're in good shape, take care of themselves, dress attractive and want a lot of sex. Simple as that.

When they let themselves go, everything else follows and the sex dries up. Do us guys find that attractive? No.

Men, myself, don't look at porn to replace our woman or to hurt them. We view porn because our ladies have low sex drives, our needs aren't being met, even after talking about it.

Reality check, woman takes care of her mans needs, she has a happy man. Woman doesn't take care of her mans needs, you can guess the result, porn is one example.

The ladies in porn aren't super models. They are average woman who take care of their bodies and love sex.

Men are very visual, and sexual creatures. Simple as that.

If a woman takes care of herself, good shape, dresses sexy and rocks her hubby and meet his needs, his porn viewing should be zero. That's the way it is for me.


Now if guys view porn and their woman are hot to be begin with, there is a deeper problem that needs to be addressed.

If Mrs.CuddleBug took care of herself, lost the weight, she could get those sexy clothes she's always wanted and I bet yah, her sex drive would go way up and be adventurous. But, as it stands, she isn't doing anything, comfortable, and the sex is 1x month and she needs to lose 80+ lbs now. She's only 38......

It's not about money. We have no mortgage by Dec 2017. So Mrs.CuddleBug will be semi retired at age 39.


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

CuddleBug said:


> I hear what you are saying.
> 
> For me, I expect my woman to take care of herself and not let herself go.
> 
> ...



I can see a mans need for having his woman look nice and dress well, but you can't marry a 4 and then be mad because she is not a 10. I have had 4 kids, have had health issues , some serious, some not so much, have consitantly through out our marriage worked two jobs, while taking care of my family and yes there was a point in my marriage I didn't take care of myself as well as i should have. Now that the kids are a little older and my health has improved i have lost the weight, but my body will never be where it was 20 years ago. I would have to put in a crazy amount of time at the gym and with those 4 kids and still working 2 jobs, i would never have that much time in my day and still have time to spend with my husband and give him what he needs of me, attention, sex.

So yes the woman in porn are average woman, but i bet they don't have to do all the things that an average mom/wife does, not to mention that their job is to be fit and they get paid well to do it. I'm sure they are not working two jobs to give their kids what they need. If you can show me a porn star with 4 or more kids that runs her own house, cleans it, takes care of her kids day in day out and works another job beside the daily porn, while her husband demands time from her, well I'll change my opinion, my guess would be though that she has help to do all those things, cause she can afford it...

Not advocating that you can let yourself go, not good for your health or your family for you to be unhealthy, but men need to be realistic..just like woman need to be realistic about men. I have no problem taking are of my mans needs, but if what he is expecting of me is unrealistic I am going to always feel like i don't measure up, which the porn has already made me feel. No woman wants to have sex with her husband if he makes her feel like that.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I don't care if my husband watches porn. My husband doesn't care if I watch porn. When I know when he watches porn that's when I have a problem. Do your thing, but I don't want to know about it. Once I know about it, I find it sloppy and disrespectful, or maybe your using it too frequently. If you need to watch it Bc I'm not available I get it, find a video, watch it (not 10) and delete the history and clean up after yourself. Once I start seeing trails and sloppiness I have a problem.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Daisy12 said:


> I can see a mans need for having his woman look nice and dress well, but you can't marry a 4 and then be mad because she is not a 10. I have had 4 kids, have had health issues , some serious, some not so much, have consitantly through out our marriage worked two jobs, while taking care of my family and yes there was a point in my marriage I didn't take care of myself as well as i should have. Now that the kids are a little older and my health has improved i have lost the weight, but my body will never be where it was 20 years ago. I would have to put in a crazy amount of time at the gym and with those 4 kids and still working 2 jobs, i would never have that much time in my day and still have time to spend with my husband and give him what he needs of me, attention, sex.
> 
> So yes the woman in porn are average woman, but i bet they don't have to do all the things that an average mom/wife does, not to mention that their job is to be fit and they get paid well to do it. I'm sure they are not working two jobs to give their kids what they need. If you can show me a porn star with 4 or more kids that runs her own house, cleans it, takes care of her kids day in day out and works another job beside the daily porn, while her husband demands time from her, well I'll change my opinion, my guess would be though that she has help to do all those things, cause she can afford it...
> 
> Not advocating that you can let yourself go, not good for your health or your family for you to be unhealthy, but men need to be realistic..just like woman need to be realistic about men. I have no problem taking are of my mans needs, but if what he is expecting of me is unrealistic I am going to always feel like i don't measure up, which the porn has already made me feel. No woman wants to have sex with her husband if he makes her feel like that.


(((Daisy)))

You have worked super hard for your family. Are you sure you don't just need a new husband?


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

jld said:


> (((Daisy)))
> 
> You have worked super hard for your family. Are you sure you don't just need a new husband?


No, I'm not perfect. I have made mistakes over the years as well. What I want for me and my husband is a new start with out the porn and all the drama. I want things the way they should have been all those years ago if we each hadn't have been to stubborn or young to see the damage we were doing to each other.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Daisy12 said:


> No, I'm not perfect. I have made mistakes over the years as well. What I want for me and my husband is a new start with out the porn and all the drama. I want things the way they should have been all those years ago if we each hadn't have been to stubborn or young to see the damage we were doing to each other.


I wish you both all the best.


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

jld said:


> I wish you both all the best.



Thank you!:smile2:


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Saibasu said:


> I never deny my husband sex. If he wants it anyway, everyway, every day of the week or more Im always game. And I gladly meet his needs be it sex, BJ, HJ even without reciprocation on every occasion. We are never out of town without each other and we talk about sex and our fantasies openly and freely.
> 
> Despite this, he STILL was doing it and getting literally irritated that I couldn't physically do something a certain way.


JFC if you're doing all this **** there's just no excuse for the dude to watch porn.

It reminds me a of a relationship I had. She was always willing. Always. Always for touching, doing just about anything. My porn usage during that time was virtually non-existent.



CuddleBug said:


> If a woman takes care of herself, in great shape, dresses sexy and wants adventurous sex with a high sex drive, for me, zero porn.


Yikes.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*In my younger years, I had no problem with using it, as long as the both of us concurred on its usage, more specifically, as an "aid" in the bedroom!

Watching other couples going at it never really had as big effect on me as it did both of my XW's! I was always ready at the mere suggestion of a stiff breeze!

Now that I'm single yet again, and with my rather bleak history of going 0 for 2 in the marriage arena, I don't really think that I want to go the "blue movie route" with another spouse or SO!

So long as they are as excited about being with me sexually as I am about being with them, and without any conscious or unconscious external influence, other than just the two of us!*


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

I read a blog in psychologytoday where the author (male psychotherapist) stated it was healthy for 'older' men to view porn in order to stimulate sexual arousal either for partnered sex or masturbation. The general gist of the article was 'ladies, suck it up'. His blog resulted in lots of comments, both for and against his statement. 

In the end, one responder shut down the conversation with a very simple question to the author. She asked him to write a similar blog advocating for 'older' women to view porn with young, virile men to stimulate _their_ sexual arousal for partnered sex with their husbands. There was no response from the author, not that the responder expected one.

I'm curious to hear from the older men (40+) in long term relationships here how they would feel if their wives/girlfriends 
1) were looking at / masturbating to young hot studs with big c)cks porn
2) needed to view porn to get excited for sex with them
3) lost some of their sexual desire/energy for them after masturbating to porn
4) were only able to offer handjobs or bjs because their masturbation habits made penetrative sex impossible.

Would any of you divorce your wives for any or all of the above?

Would it have a negative effect on the way you view sex with your wife? Would it have a positive effect?


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

I'm 5'2, 110 lbs, fairly attractive. I work out regularly, I dress nicely. H and I went to the Caribbean on vacation a couple of weeks ago. I pranced about in booty shorts he picked out for me and skimpy bikinis. We have sex frequently. I'm good anytime, have never turned him down. 

We both still watch porn. I don't know how often H does and don't really care honestly. I would be careful though in making a man viewing porn about the woman not being "good enough", not fit enough, or wanting sex enough. I don't think that's remotely true for all men. Men have much higher levels of testosterone than women do. I have a healthy sex drive so I can only imagine what that would be like lol. 

During our vacation, we had hot sex one night. In the morning, I got up before him and took a shower. When I got out, I caught him masturbating to porn. He didn't hear the shower turn off. He had a bit of a deer caught in headlights look lol. It didn't bother me in the least though, it kind of turned me on. So I joined in. Gave him a BJ. 

I don't see that as him having a problem, or me not being hot enough for him. He just has a really high drive. He probably just wanted a quick release that morning while I was in the shower. I think the fact that we're so accepting of each other really helps build a deeper bond between one another.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

Lila said:


> I read a blog in psychologytoday where the author (male psychotherapist) stated it was healthy for 'older' men to view porn in order to stimulate sexual arousal either for partnered sex or masturbation. The general gist of the article was 'ladies, suck it up'. His blog resulted in lots of comments, both for and against his statement.
> 
> In the end, one responder shut down the conversation with a very simple question to the author. She asked him to write a similar blog advocating for 'older' women to view porn with young, virile men to stimulate _their_ sexual arousal for partnered sex with their husbands. There was no response from the author, not that the responder expected one.
> 
> ...


Speaking for my husband

1. He has no problem with it. Thinks it's hot
2. It's not an issue but he wouldn't care, so long as we had sex
3. Doesn't bother him. Yesterday I was really wanting him. He woke up with a nasty headache though and I didn't want to bug him. He really looked like he felt horrible and that's rare for him. So I didn't expect there to be any fun time later. He took an afternoon nap so I took care of myself. He woke up and felt a lot better. That night he initiated. I told him I wish he had sooner, I already took care of myself. He got turned on, asked what I fantasized about, if I watched anything. I gave him a half interested, half falling asleep BJ. He was fine with that. We had proper sex today. 
4. This would be the only issue he'd have. The key is moderation in all things.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Celes said:


> I'm 5'2, 110 lbs, fairly attractive. I work out regularly, I dress nicely. H and I went to the Caribbean on vacation a couple of weeks ago. I pranced about in booty shorts he picked out for me and skimpy bikinis. We have sex frequently. I'm good anytime, have never turned him down.
> 
> We both still watch porn. I don't know how often H does and don't really care honestly. I would be careful though in making a man viewing porn about the woman not being "good enough", not fit enough, or wanting sex enough. I don't think that's remotely true for all men. Men have much higher levels of testosterone than women do. I have a healthy sex drive so I can only imagine what that would be like lol.
> 
> ...


Did you see what @lifeistooshort said about that? Guys who are truly high drive do not need porn to get off.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

jld said:


> Did you see what @lifeistooshort said about that? Guys who are truly high drive do not need porn to get off.


No he doesn't need it to get off. Neither do I. But it sure does help. Women don't need vibrators or dildos either. We don't need erotica novels. 

I don't need hot water to take a shower but it definitely feels a lot better when I have it. 

Hope that helps explain it.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Lila said:


> I read a blog in psychologytoday where the author (male psychotherapist) stated it was healthy for 'older' men to view porn in order to stimulate sexual arousal either for partnered sex or masturbation. The general gist of the article was 'ladies, suck it up'. His blog resulted in lots of comments, both for and against his statement.
> 
> In the end, one responder shut down the conversation with a very simple question to the author. She asked him to write a similar blog advocating for 'older' women to view porn with young, virile men to stimulate _their_ sexual arousal for partnered sex with their husbands. There was no response from the author, not that the responder expected one.
> 
> ...


1 ok, the rest not ok. 

For 2, if I was obese or had bad hygiene I could understand it. 

My wife went through a phase where she needed to be partially drunk before she would have sex with me. I didn't divorce her for that.

I would much much prefer my wife masturbate to some anonymous big ****ed porn actor than to my next door neighbour in her fantasy land. Much prefer. Can't understand how you can be threatened by someone your spouse will never meet or communicate with in person.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> I read a blog in psychologytoday where the author (male psychotherapist) stated it was healthy for 'older' men to view porn in order to stimulate sexual arousal either for partnered sex or masturbation. The general gist of the article was 'ladies, suck it up'. His blog resulted in lots of comments, both for and against his statement.
> 
> In the end, one responder shut down the conversation with a very simple question to the author. She asked him to write a similar blog advocating for 'older' women to view porn with young, virile men to stimulate _their_ sexual arousal for partnered sex with their husbands. There was no response from the author, not that the responder expected one.
> 
> ...


1) Would be hypocritical of me to have an issue with if I watch porn. However, regardless of what type of porn she may be watching, if watching porn is actually replacing sex then it is a big problem
2) Yes, this would be an issue for me. I have never needed outside stimulation to get excited to have sex with my W, and if my W did I would view it as a problem
3) Yes and no. If we have an active/healthy sex life it wouldn't be an issue. If we are having infrequent sex, then something like masturbation leading to less of a desire would be a problem
4) If penetrative sex was impossible b/c of their masturbation habits (is that even possible, unless they are cramming squashes up their ***** lol), that would be a problem

However, to throw it back at you @Lila , how would you respond to the questions assuming the questions were regarding your H?


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Celes said:


> I'm 5'2, 110 lbs, fairly attractive. I work out regularly, I dress nicely. H and I went to the Caribbean on vacation a couple of weeks ago. I pranced about in booty shorts he picked out for me and skimpy bikinis. We have sex frequently. I'm good anytime, have never turned him down.
> 
> We both still watch porn. I don't know how often H does and don't really care honestly. I would be careful though in making a man viewing porn about the woman not being "good enough", not fit enough, or wanting sex enough. I don't think that's remotely true for all men. Men have much higher levels of testosterone than women do. I have a healthy sex drive so I can only imagine what that would be like lol.
> 
> ...


Bravo!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Celes said:


> Speaking for my husband
> 
> 1. He has no problem with it. Thinks it's hot
> 2. It's not an issue but he wouldn't care, so long as we had sex
> ...


I should have prefaced my post that I was curious to hear from 'older' (40+) men in long term marriages/relationships but I do appreciate you responding to those questions. It provides a baseline for a comparison for what the younger generation is like. 

The reason I'm interested in mostly older people is this is about the time men start experiencing sexual health issues like ED and low testosterone. I can't imagine younger men, in their prime, objecting to any of the questions posed. After all virility and youth are the main ingredients for invincibility ;D

I also don't see many younger women, in the prime of their lives, indicating issues with their partner's porn use. I think it becomes more of an issue with older women, maybe even women who have had kids and their bodies no longer can compare to the 22- year old porn actresses. 

I'm sure there are relationship experts out there compiling this sort of data.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Good Guy said:


> 1 ok, the rest not ok.
> 
> For 2, if I was obese or had bad hygiene I could understand it.
> 
> *My wife went through a phase where she needed to be partially drunk before she would have sex with me*. I didn't divorce her for that.


Wow, that's got to be devastating.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Lila said:


> Good Guy said:
> 
> 
> > 1 ok, the rest not ok.
> ...


Yeah she was in a very bad place at the time. That seems ages ago now.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

Lila said:


> I should have prefaced my post that I was curious to hear from 'older' (40+) men in long term marriages/relationships but I do appreciate you responding to those questions. It provides a baseline for a comparison for what the younger generation is like.
> 
> The reason I'm interested in mostly older people is this is about the time men start experiencing sexual health issues like ED and low testosterone. I can't imagine younger men, in their prime, objecting to any of the questions posed. After all virility and youth are the main ingredients for invincibility ;D
> 
> ...


My husband is 44. I'm 31. Porn actresses don't all have perfect bodies either. They come in all shapes and sizes. My husband likes specific acts in porn more than who's in it.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> 1) Would be hypocritical of me to have an issue with if I watch porn. However, regardless of what type of porn she may be watching, if watching porn is actually replacing sex then it is a big problem
> 2) Yes, this would be an issue for me. I have never needed outside stimulation to get excited to have sex with my W, and if my W did I would view it as a problem
> 3) Yes and no. If we have an active/healthy sex life it wouldn't be an issue. If we are having infrequent sex, then something like masturbation leading to less of a desire would be a problem
> 4) If penetrative sex was impossible b/c of their masturbation habits (is that even possible, unless they are cramming squashes up their ***** lol), that would be a problem


#3 was directed more towards sexual energy. Many men state they masturbate to reduce their urge for sex....a release so to speak. Some women lose their sexual energy when they masturbate as well. I was asking if men would have a problem with less sexual energy during sex, much like after men masturbate.

#4 is a continuance of #3. Sometimes women masturbate, lose their sexual energy. If women had penises it would be the equivalent of not being able to 'perform' because they just masturbated. I hear men say that even if they can't perform, they are willing to give their partner's oral sex or get them off manually. I was just asking if this would be acceptable to men.



EllisRedding said:


> However, to throw it back at you @Lila , how would you respond to the questions assuming the questions were regarding your H?


My husband said he'd have a problem with all of them I think that's why he empathizes with me. He would be hurt to know that use big c0ck to masturbate, or that couldn't get hot for him without porn, or that I was expending my sexual energy on porn.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Celes said:


> My husband is 44. I'm 31. Porn actresses don't all have perfect bodies either. They come in all shapes and sizes. My husband likes specific acts in porn more than who's in it.


Thanks for the clarification on the ages. I appreciate your responses to the questions.

And yes, I know that porn actresses come in all shapes and sizes but by and large, the most popular ones are the fit and young.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> I read a blog in psychologytoday where the author (male psychotherapist) stated it was healthy for 'older' men to view porn in order to stimulate sexual arousal either for partnered sex or masturbation. The general gist of the article was 'ladies, suck it up'. His blog resulted in lots of comments, both for and against his statement.
> 
> In the end, one responder shut down the conversation with a very simple question to the author. She asked him to write a similar blog advocating for 'older' women to view porn with young, virile men to stimulate _their_ sexual arousal for partnered sex with their husbands. There was no response from the author, not that the responder expected one.
> 
> ...


 @Lila while this is not an answer to your questions, I once had a girlfriend in college that could not get aroused unless we were watching lesbian porn. She would get extremely wet and then upon penetration she said she felt nothing and would instantly dry up which would make further PIV impossible without lube. I found those experiences to be emotionally unsettling. After a few times she told me that she was just not ready to be sexually active and we broke up. 

While this was about her being unable to accept her sexuality and desire for other women, porn played an awkward aspect of our relationship that "enabled" things for her momentarily to try and make heterosexuality to work. I accepted that she liked girl on girl porn and was not offended, and I guess this attracted her to me. That and the fact I had very long hair and kind of looked girly at that time in college. She really really liked my long hair and would make me take out my ponytail when we would make out. Oral sex was the only thing that worked between us.

Very strange parallel there isn't it to your analogy about porn? 

Badsanta


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Good Guy said:


> I would much much prefer my wife masturbate to some anonymous big ****ed porn actor than to my next door neighbour in her fantasy land. Much prefer. *Can't understand how you can be threatened by someone your spouse will never meet or communicate with in person*.


You added this part of your post after I'd responded to it initially. 

In response to the bolded, everyone has insecurities. I don't care who you are. ...you've got insecurities. 

Whether you agree with them or not is moot. What IS important is that discuss them with an open heart of understanding. The worse thing someone can do is tell their partner that their particular insecurities are stupid and/or crazy just because they don't understand or necessarily agree with them. 



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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Very strange parallel there isn't it to your analogy about porn?
> 
> Badsanta


??


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

badsanta said:


> To the contrary. During the rule of the Roman Empire, it was considered a man's civic duty to visit the brothels and it was not shameful. Men were taught that they should enjoy sex, but to do so in moderation. Much like drinking alcohol, one is often encouraged to drink it socially but not in excess or compulsively. So prostitutes during the Roman Empire were likely viewed as being on par with serving alcohol at festivities.
> 
> It is however very important to note that for the prostitutes themselves, that they were most likely slaves or viewed as a much lower class of society. So for the Romans it was likely viewed as exercising their "power" over other people, which was why it was every man's civic duty to visit the brothels.
> 
> ...


There is a difference between being legal and being moral. Prostitution is not moral today and it was not moral during the Romans.

The same goes for porn.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> ??


The parallel is _suppressed sexuality_ that becomes "enabled" by porn, but then no longer functions in the context of traditional lovemaking between partners. 

You outlined a woman becoming dependent upon porn for arousal. I am saying that this "dependency" can be a form of suppressed sexuality coming to the surface. 

Another example might be a woman that stumbles across a male porn performer with a voice and mannerisms identical to her very first lover. Because this male porn star is prolific, she can use his content to immerse herself into a fantasy world of what sex would be like had he not broken up with her. She has never fully coped with being rejected by her first sexual partner but this porn awakens something in her that she can not deal with it in any other way than watching porn. Meanwhile she becomes less and less able to perform with her husband. 

Porn is not the problem, but more so suppressed feelings. Can be the same for men. 

I stumbled across a porn in which the female's voice was identical to one of my past sexual partners. Holy cow! I could put on my headphones, close my eyes, and she was right there on top of me again. The voice of the female actress had such a profound effect on me, that I could even smell the smells of being in her bedroom again. Fortunately for me, this porn star only had two videos that I could ever find and I was quickly able to shrug off that emotional fiasco I was getting myself into. 

But seriously @Lila imagine hearing the exact voice of a previous lover that the two of you only had outercourse and never went all the way. Imagine hearing that exact same voice again going all the way in your headphones and imagining the two of you together.

Would porn be to blame? Or would that be something inside of you awakened by past memories you struggled to forget?

Badsanta


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Lila said:


> Good Guy said:
> 
> 
> > 1 ok, the rest not ok.
> ...


The last two years of my marriage was like that, too. XH wouldn't f*ck me unless I got him drunk. It was AWFUL. Completely destroyed my self-esteem. Like Good Guy, that wasn't why I divorced him... but it wrecked me so bad, that it took me a lot longer than it should have to realize that I deserved better.

And he was using porn like crazy the last two years. While I was at work (he worked nights, I worked days), based on his browser history, he must have been watching it for hours each day. I also discovered a HUGE stash of DVDs I had never known about. Early in our relationship, I wanted to watch it together, and it made him uncomfortable. If I walked in on him masturbating, he would get embarrassed and want me to leave. And he would never talk about sex; if I ever got him to talk about it, he would only speak in childlike language and euphemisms. 

Comversely... My current partner uses porn frequently, but it's different. He will watch it on his own, but we also watch it together. If I come over to his place, and he's watching porn, I know we're gonna have some fun before dinner. If I walk in on him masturbating, jackpot! We talk openly about sex all the time--not just, "We're open to talking about it" but it's an ongoing topic of conversation, both in terms of fun, graphic flirting AND open communication about what's working and what isn't. And if I'm in the mood, but he's not feeling like he wants to, well, I'll just say that he feels it's his responsibility to take care of that for me, instead of me taking care of myself.

My point is this: it really depends on the man (and the woman, and the individual relationship) in regards to how porn functions in and affects a relationship. There have been a lot of valid and contradictory examples and points made in this thread. And the fact is, they pretty much all have merit, because it really depends on the individuals.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Celes said:


> My husband is 44. I'm 31. Porn actresses don't all have perfect bodies either. They come in all shapes and sizes. My husband likes specific acts in porn more than who's in it.


Bingo. My partner has definite tastes/specific themes that he looks for in porn. Show me any random porn clip, and I can straight away tell you what he will and won't like about it. 

But ask him to name a porn actress who hasn't gone mainstream that everyone seems to know? Or his favorite actress? Not a chance.

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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> My point is this: it really depends on the man (and the woman, and the individual relationship) in regards to how porn functions in and affects a relationship. There have been a lot of valid and contradictory examples and points made in this thread. And the fact is, they pretty much all have merit, because it really depends on the individuals.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


I couldn't 'like' your post because I think what your ex did to you was bull $h!t. But I do agree that porn is a preference unique to each individual. 

My attitude has always been that anything sexual is fine as long all involved are consenting adults and no one gets hurt. 

I normally ignore threads debating sexual likes/dislikes because they don't really resolve anything. The only reason for my posts on this thread is that the OP question seemed like a good opportunity to explain _why _ some women, like me, divorce over a spouse's porn use. I hope that my posts reflected that message and that I didn't come off like I'm arguing against porn. 

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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> #3 was directed more towards sexual energy. Many men state they masturbate to reduce their urge for sex....a release so to speak. Some women lose their sexual energy when they masturbate as well. I was asking if men would have a problem with less sexual energy during sex, much like after men masturbate.
> 
> #4 is a continuance of #3. Sometimes women masturbate, lose their sexual energy. If women had penises it would be the equivalent of not being able to 'perform' because they just masturbated. I hear men say that even if they can't perform, they are willing to give their partner's oral sex or get them off manually. I was just asking if this would be acceptable to men.


I can understand the need to masturbate if you need to release the urge for sex and having sex with your partner is not an option. My answer still falls in line with this though. If we are having frequent sex there is less need to masturbate to reduce urge for sex. Each person just needs to understand how masturbating affects their sexual energy as it is individualistic. When I was younger I could tickle my pickle all day long and it would not have any impact on my sexual energy. As I have gotten older that is no longer the case, and the reason why I generally limit any masturbation (even if there is not much going on between myself and the Mrs.)

I still don't follow your #4 premise though. So these women are masturbating where they can't have penetrative sex, or just masturbating which has reduced their sexual energy (i.e. maybe they won't be able to orgasm during sex). These are two different points. If a female masturbates to the point where she can't have penetrative sex, that seems like an issue regardless. If a female masturbates to the point where maybe she can't orgasm from sex, I don't see why that has to impact having penetrative sex (i.e. her inability to orgasm doesn't necessarily coincide with his during sex).


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Lila said:


> I couldn't 'like' your post because I think what your ex did to you was bull $h!t. But I do agree that porn is a preference unique to each individual.
> 
> My attitude has always been that anything sexual is fine as long all involved are consenting adults and no one gets hurt.
> 
> ...


 @Lila, I wasn't necessarily thinking of your posts (or anyone else's) specifically when I wrote about different and conflicting viewpoints. Your comments, of course, exist on that spectrum, however, and you've raised some interesting questions and conversation with your comments, which I think is important. Everyone should be so self-aware that they question their own behavior and motives, so at the very least they understand why they do what they do and why they feel the way that they feel.

My XH, I don't think he ever thought about his porn use, why he was doing it, or how it affected our marriage. And that was his undoing, because he was never able to see or acknowledge the damage he did to me and our relationship (talking the whole kit and caboodle here, not just porn), so in his mind, everything was my fault and I just decided I didn't love him anymore. And he will make the same mistakes in his next marriage, no doubt.

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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Celes said:


> My husband is 44. I'm 31. Porn actresses don't all have perfect bodies either. They come in all shapes and sizes. My husband likes specific acts in porn more than who's in it.





FeministInPink said:


> Bingo. My partner has definite tastes/specific themes that he looks for in porn. Show me any random porn clip, and I can straight away tell you what he will and won't like about it.
> 
> But ask him to name a porn actress who hasn't gone mainstream that everyone seems to know? Or his favorite actress? Not a chance.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Agreed with this. There is a ton of porn out there for every shape and size, and I would argue that many (from what I have seen) actresses don't have close to what would be considered a "perfect body", especially in HD :surprise:

I know there are people who I am sure have favorite porn actresses, but I would bet for many the focus is more on the theme/sex act/position. Otherwise, just having porn actresses with perfect bodies having only missionary sex would be enough.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I still don't follow your #4 premise though. So these women are masturbating where they can't have penetrative sex, or just masturbating which has reduced their sexual energy (i.e. maybe they won't be able to orgasm during sex). These are two different points. If a female masturbates to the point where she can't have penetrative sex, that seems like an issue regardless. I*f a female masturbates to the point where maybe she can't orgasm from sex, I don't see why that has to impact having penetrative sex (i.e. her inability to orgasm doesn't necessarily coincide with his during sex)*.


Some women just don't feel like having penetrative sex once they've masturbated but are willing to provide oral sex or handjobs to their spouses to meet their sexual needs. Kind of like when men masturbate to completion then don't have the sexual energy/desire to get an erection in order to have penetrative sex with their wives. They offer up oral sex or some other kind of sexual play to get their wives off. Same thing.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> Some women just don't feel like having penetrative sex once they've masturbated but are willing to provide oral sex or handjobs to their spouses to meet their sexual needs. Kind of like when men masturbate to completion then don't have the sexual energy/desire to get an erection in order to have penetrative sex with their wives. They offer up oral sex or some other kind of sexual play to get their wives off. Same thing.


So that then goes in line with my other thought. If they know their masturbating habits will lead to this, either discuss with SO so they is aware of (and are ok with), or show some control lol.

I can understand offering up alternatives if your sexual performance/energy is diminished due to circumstances out of your control (hormonal, ED, etc...). Offering up alternatives b/c you decided having fun with yourself was more important, hard to find a positive in that.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> My point is this: it really depends on the man (and the woman, and the individual relationship) in regards to how porn functions in and affects a relationship. There have been a lot of valid and contradictory examples and points made in this thread. And the fact is, they pretty much all have merit, because it really depends on the individuals.


*A common theme is shame* and how you deal with it in a relationship! 

Some people such as my wife claim that "shame" is your moral compass telling you something and that you need to listen to it. To that I'll tell her that I was raised by sociopaths and taught only to think of myself, and if that is the case I'll stop trying to learn to respect her views on the matter as my moral compass always has a mischievous smile and two thumbs up whenever I look at it!

Badsanta


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

badsanta said:


> *A common theme is shame* and how you deal with it in a relationship!
> 
> Some people such as my wife claim that "shame" is your moral compass telling you something and that you need to listen to it. To that I'll tell her that I was raised by sociopaths and taught only to think of myself, and if that is the case I'll stop trying to learn to respect her views on the matter as my moral compass always has a mischievous smile and two thumbs up whenever I look at it!
> 
> Badsanta


I wholeheartedly DISAGREE with your wife's understanding of the concept of shame!

Too many people feel shame over things they shouldn't, and shaming other people for behavior is all too frequently a form of emotional abuse and manipulation. It teaches people to self-loathe, and tells them that there is something inherently wrong with the person, rather than the behavior.

The more I learn about your wife, man... the more nutso I think she is. But you're all right  

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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> @farsidejunky
> 
> If your wife had said the above to you when you were using porn, how would you have reacted? Would it have increased your respect for her?


The premise of your question assumes she is treating me with respect, and expects the same, correct? 

Three years ago, I would have taken it further underground. Assuming this were still a problem or that I was still actively pursuing porn now, given how things have been trending for us lately, I would tell her that she is welcome to increase her intimacy willingness frequency, or that energy would be spent elsewhere. 

Is porn a problem? Yep. I was proof of it several years ago when I used it as a wedge to avoid my wife and the problems we had. However, the more I consider this issue with porn through the lens of marriage, the more I am coming to see things similar to @Anon Pink. If my wife has little interest in intimacy, and does not show any concern in how that impacts me, it is hard to sympathize with her concerns over how any hypothetical outlets (to include porn) would impact her.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

To me shame can result from things that should be private becoming public.

If I'm sitting on the toilet and the stall door swings open and people see me , I'll feel shame even though what I am doing on the toilet is a normal necessary biological function.

If I shred the seat of my pants when I'm out hiking an my a$$ is hanging out, I'll feel shame, even though there is nothing particularly unusual about my a$$.

Masturbation is private, and will cause shame if seen by someone other than an accepting intimate partner. 




badsanta said:


> *A common theme is shame* and how you deal with it in a relationship!
> 
> Some people such as my wife claim that "shame" is your moral compass telling you something and that you need to listen to it. To that I'll tell her that I was raised by sociopaths and taught only to think of myself, and if that is the case I'll stop trying to learn to respect her views on the matter as my moral compass always has a mischievous smile and two thumbs up whenever I look at it!
> 
> Badsanta


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> The premise of your question assumes she is treating me with respect, and expects the same, correct?
> 
> Three years ago, I would have taken it further underground. Assuming this were still a problem or that I was still actively pursuing porn now, given how things have been trending for us lately, I would tell her that she is welcome to increase her intimacy willingness frequency, or that energy would be spent elsewhere.
> 
> Is porn a problem? Yep. I was proof of it several years ago when I used it as a wedge to avoid my wife and the problems we had. However, the more I consider this issue with porn through the lens of marriage, the more I am coming to see things similar to @Anon Pink. If my wife has little interest in intimacy, and does not show any concern in how that impacts me, it is hard to sympathize with her concerns over how any hypothetical outlets (to include porn) would impact her.


So you would be willing to go back to porn?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I am not ruling it out. 

It is not ideal, but given our overall recent trend, I may. 

I am more concerned reconciling that decision with God than I am my wife, though.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I am not ruling it out.
> 
> It is not ideal, but given our overall recent trend, I may.
> 
> I am more concerned reconciling that decision with God than I am my wife, though.


Oh, far. I am so sorry to hear this.


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> I am not ruling it out.
> 
> It is not ideal, but given our overall recent trend, I may.
> 
> I am more concerned reconciling that decision with God than I am my wife, though.


I don't know completely your story, but i am assuming that you have stopped looking a porn for a while. May I ask how long you were you away from it and what is the 'recent trend' that makes you feel like using again.

I worry that not looking at it something my husband will not be able to do. He did stop years ago but when i ask him how long he was off it, he says he can't remember. He can't even give me a ball park answer.He also can't remember how many times roughly per week he used it in the last year and when I asked for his use the month and a half prior to when this all came out he really didn't give me a straight answer, he said maybe once or twice but maybe more he could not remember. He says that when he used were not memorable times for him because he was ashamed so that's why he can't tell me more specifics, but I still feel like he is holding back.

I'm sorry to hear things are not going well for you. I wish you all the best. I understand this is not something easy to do, i wish my husband would talk to me more so I could help.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Daisy12, I understand you've had these issues in your marriage but I feel like you're setting him up for failure when you've made it clear how much you were willing to leave him over it and then you go and ask specifically how much he's done it over the past year, how many times a week, and how many times a month.


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

@toblerone 

I am not trying to set him up for failure, but when he can't or won't answer questions i feel like he should have some sort of answer too it makes me feel like he's still lying giving me the trickle truth. Some of these question he didn't even try to answer, he just would say i don't know. How long he was able to stay away from it before and the frequency in which he needed it was something i needed to know. There are lots of other questions i wanted to ask but didn't because no good would come out of them, i only asked what i needed to know to move on. I still feel like not knowing is a block in my path to getting over it.

I asked him these questions when everything came out in the open and i told him he needed to be honest with me about everything now, cause i was not going to work through this then 2 years later find out he left something important out. I'm not going to leave my husband over porn. Do you think telling him this would help him? If porn is something he needs than we will work something out, provided he comes to me and lets me know. I don't want to be sitting here thinking that he is porn free cause that's what he is telling me than one day I find something. That's what is going to make me leave. I will not be lied to again and if he finds nothing wrong with watching porn on occasion than there is no need to lie to me about it.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I stopped in early 2014. As I said, it was a wedge that was a barrier to intimacy between my wife and I, who had our share of problems. We worked through most of them, and we were doing pretty well for a while, but she simply cannot sustain any level of intimacy without resentment. Understand that our agreed upon level of intimacy went from often (vague, I know), to three times per week, to two times per week (that being our last agreed upon frequency about 60 days ago) over the last three years. We are closer to 2 times per month, and the last few times have been lackluster to say the least, with occasional crankiness. The last time she did that after I initiated, I told her thanks but no thanks. 

If you want your husband to focus on you and not porn (anecdotally speaking), make sure he feels like his sexual (and other) needs are prioritized, and that he feels respected. It is incredibly simple, but evidently far from easy. When my wife actually treats me well, my mind does not wander. 

Of course, that is assuming he is a man worthy of respect. If he is not, then there are other problems.



Daisy12 said:


> I don't know completely your story, but i am assuming that you have stopped looking a porn for a while. May I ask how long you were you away from it and what is the 'recent trend' that makes you feel like using again.
> 
> I worry that not looking at it something my husband will not be able to do. He did stop years ago but when i ask him how long he was off it, he says he can't remember. He can't even give me a ball park answer.He also can't remember how many times roughly per week he used it in the last year and when I asked for his use the month and a half prior to when this all came out he really didn't give me a straight answer, he said maybe once or twice but maybe more he could not remember. He says that when he used were not memorable times for him because he was ashamed so that's why he can't tell me more specifics, but I still feel like he is holding back.
> 
> I'm sorry to hear things are not going well for you. I wish you all the best. I understand this is not something easy to do, i wish my husband would talk to me more so I could help.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Daisy12 said:


> @toblerone
> I'm not going to leave my husband over porn. Do you think telling him this would help him? If porn is something he needs than we will work something out, provided he comes to me and lets me know. I don't want to be sitting here thinking that he is porn free cause that's what he is telling me than one day I find something. That's what is going to make me leave. I will not be lied to again and if he finds nothing wrong with watching porn on occasion than there is no need to lie to me about it.


Yea, he just might not be getting the point that you're more concerned about things slipping back into a void. Just from the way I read it, it could be interpreted as him getting interrogated.

I mean, is it OK if he tells you he's been spanking it again, as long as its not whatever 'too much' is/having a detrimental effect on intimacy/relationship?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> I stopped in early 2014.


Oh man far, that is just when it started getting really good :grin2:



farsidejunky said:


> If you want your husband to focus on you and not porn (anecdotally speaking), *make sure he feels like his sexual (and other) needs are prioritized,* and respected. It is incredibly simple, but evidently far from easy. When my wife actually treats me well, my mind does not wander.
> 
> Of course, that is assuming he is a man worthy of respect. If he is not, then there are other problems.


:smthumbup:

I think in particular the bolded, and where it gets missed by some, is they think by offering up sex periodically it fixes the issue. What ends up happening, you realize even more that sexual (and other) needs are not a priority, and instead just being thrown out there as more of a way to reel you back in.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

It is more like playing a sport where you want to be great but another team member is just there to pass the time; you may have some decent moments, but your team will never be great.



EllisRedding said:


> I think in particular the bolded, and where it gets missed by some, is they think by offering up sex periodically it fixes the issue. What ends up happening, you realize even more that sexual (and other) needs are not a priority, and instead just being thrown out there as more of a way to reel you back in.


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

toblerone said:


> Yea, he just might not be getting the point that you're more concerned about things slipping back into a void. Just from the way I read it, it could be interpreted as him getting interrogated.
> 
> I mean, is it OK if he tells you he's been spanking it again, as long as its not whatever 'too much' is/having a detrimental effect on intimacy/relationship?


That is why I wanted to know, so things don't slip back into the void. I guess i thought if i knew how long he went the last time without it compared to this time so far that i would know whether what i have been doing is doing the trick for lack of a better phrase. I felt like knowing the frequency would give me a better idea on his sex drive. I don't care if he masterbates but he has told me he hasn't in over 8 months, we have sex 4 to 6 times a week, but then i can't be sure he's telling the truth. I wondering how much he tells me is the truth. When someone has looked you in the eyes and lied, it's hard to believe them anymore.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Ok. I'm way out of my depth. I don't know how to relate to a guy's point of view who may or may not be using porn and also having sex 4-6 times a week.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Oh man far, that is just when it started getting really good :grin2:


Considering how hard far worked to get over his porn addiction, I think this remark is pretty insensitive. Would you tell a former alcoholic who was tempted to go back to the bottle how much he had missed in the years he had given up alcohol?

Far, I remember your saying that of all 3 of your addictions--porn, alcohol, and meth--porn was by far the hardest to overcome. Do you really want to risk falling into that all over again? Knowing how hard it was to get out, do you really want to chance it?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> It is more like playing a sport where you want to be great but another team is just there to pass the time; you may have some decent moments, but your team will never be great.


Far, I am not going to bother responding to the other person. I would hope you realized my comment was purely sarcasm and nothing more (i.e. porn post 2014). If you took it otherwise, let me know, I will gladly apologize.


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> I think in particular the bolded, and where it gets missed by some, is they think by offering up sex periodically it fixes the issue. What ends up happening, *you realize even more that sexual (and other) needs are not a priority, and instead just being thrown out there as more of a way to reel you back in*.


Man oh man, and you guys say we are complicated..:grin2:

What are men's other needs. If the media is not right that all men want is sex all the time, then what do they want? If you could consitantly get one things from your wife what would it be?


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Quiet.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I thought the remark was pretty funny actually, but thanks nonetheless, JLD. I can laugh at myself just fine...

:grin2:

As for the last paragraph, no, I don't. The one thing that stops me from messing with substances (alcohol, others) is my health and my want to remain in top physical condition to compete in jujitsu. The draw or pull for porn (other than my lack of sex life) is that it would not hurt either. The only thing it would really hurt would be my relationship, but the foundation of that problem is on sand more than stone.



jld said:


> Considering how hard far worked to get over his porn addiction, I think this remark is pretty insensitive. Would you tell a former alcoholic who was tempted to go back to the bottle how much he had missed in the years he had given up alcohol?
> 
> Far, I remember your saying that of all 3 of your addictions--porn, alcohol, and meth--porn was by far the hardest to overcome. Do you really want to risk falling into that all over again? Knowing how hard it was to get out, do you really want to chance it?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> I thought the remark was pretty funny actually, but thanks nonetheless, JLD. I can laugh at myself just fine...
> 
> :grin2:


I was actually thinking I needed to go do an analysis of pre and post 2014 porn to see if I was somehow inaccurate with my assessment ... :surprise:

Sorry to hear you appear to be at a crossroad Far.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Daisy, you are here asking questions. That already puts you in the positive side of the equation.

Additionally, focus less on "mens needs" and focus more on "your mans needs". 

If you do that, you will have done everything for which you are capable to prevent him going back. From there, he has to make the decision. Your job is to make that decision a difficult one. 



Daisy12 said:


> Man oh man, and you guys say we are complicated..:grin2:
> 
> What are men's other needs. If the media is not right that all men want is sex all the time, then what do they want? If you could consitantly get one things from your wife what would it be?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Maybe at 20. I am early 40's, so 4-6 times per week might exceed my comfort level. For the record, I would suffer up and be willing to find out...

:grin2:



toblerone said:


> Ok. I'm way out of my depth. I don't know how to relate to a guy's point of view who may or may not be using porn and also having sex 4-6 times a week.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> One in particular that we all know you love and who I hope loses Sunday. >


BAM!!!!!!


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Lila said:


> Good Guy said:
> 
> 
> > I would much much prefer my wife masturbate to some anonymous big ****ed porn actor than to my next door neighbour in her fantasy land. Much prefer. *Can't understand how you can be threatened by someone your spouse will never meet or communicate with in person*.
> ...


I agree everyone has insecurities. I'd never say someone was stupid or crazy because of them.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Good Guy said:


> I agree everyone has insecurities. I'd never say someone was stupid or crazy because of them.


I agree we shouldn't call them stupid or crazy but we also shouldn't hold ourselves responsible for another's insecurities either.

I shared this story before here, surprise suprise on yet another porn thread, about a woman I dated for 4-5 months some years ago. She had many insecurities and religious beliefs about porn. She basically didn't want to be with a guy who viewed other naked women. we were able to compromise and make sure both our desires were met for as long as the relationship lasted but I never felt responsible for her views/insecurities about porn or masterbation. Those were hers alone.

I really don't know if that could have lasted long term, I have my doubts.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree we shouldn't call them stupid or crazy but *we also shouldn't hold ourselves responsible for another's insecurities either.*


I actually agree with this even though I have a hard time doing it myself. For example, I know that my husband's performance anxiety induced ED is not my responsibility but it still takes a lot of self discipline to not make it so.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Porn helped me get through 3 (post)pregnancy sex lulls and a plethora of PMSing, headaches, tirednesses or whatever else that prevented "access" to my wife. I watched all kinds of porn throughout my life (some of it for comic effects, not because it aroused me), but most of it, to speed up the "job". I found that I get less and less aroused from porn and nowadays rarely bother with it because it is so repetitive. On the other hand, I have NEVER not been aroused by my wife. Recently, we have been intimate every two days or so and porn is the last thing on my mind.

I wish some women could switch minds with a guy for a day or so because I don't think there is any way to explain that porn simply fulfils a specific function and nothing more. This function is very limited and doesn't mean that the woman on the screen is in any way desired or preferred over the spouse. There really is no deeper meaning behind it. Because it is impossible for a woman to relate to this (just as it is impossible for a man to relate to certain things in a woman's brain), these arguments will never resolve and may cause unnecessary strains in relationships.

Note that I am talking about a "typical case" of porn usage. I acknowledge that there are addictions or cases where porn usage can actually harm a relationship. 
As with anything, porn should be used responsibly...

I also don't especially agree with the notion that porn necessarily encourages disrespect towards women in real life. My wife seems to enjoy submission games now and again and it can be great fun for a couple who know each other well. (It took me a while to find out what she likes, mostly through trial and error because she is otherwise shy, but I think i got there eventually and it's amazing: it's like playing the game of Zelda: if you are daring and try hard enough, some amazing levels can be unlocked and you never look back!).

It doesn't mean that any of this would be taken anywhere outside of bedroom: there is no one I respect more than my wife in every day life situations. One of the great things about sex and intimacy is that you can explore and push boundaries as far as both desire. Much further than would normally be acceptable in real life as it offers a form of escapism. There should be a clear distinction though and I think an open mind generally helps getting rid of some prejudices. From quick glance at some threads, it seems fairly clear (to me) that there are a lot of deep-rooted problems or trust issues in some relationships and porn is often the go-to scape goat for all evils. 
It doesn't have to be.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> BAM!!!!!!


Nice. Your QB is too good.


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## Loveontherocks (Oct 17, 2016)

Personally I didn't have a problem with my STBXH watching porn.

When we were together we had a very active sex life, at least once per day. He works offshore so when he was at work I was cool with him using porn because he was going from having sex on tap to going cold turkey. 

I would feel differently if he was neglecting me sexually in favour of porn, and I do think that's what happens in some relationships.

If a woman has insecurities about her appearance the fact her husband watches porn won't help that. I've had friends who see it as a deal breaker, would absolutely feel betrayed if their partners watched porn, they feel it's much the same as cheating and don't understand why I'm okay with it. However, I also have friends who share my view on it and are totally fine with it.

I think as long as the sex life isn't jeopardised then a little porn is okay. For example, I had surgery about a year ago and was physically unable to have sex but told my husband if he felt that he wanted to watch a bit of porn until I was "back in action" I'd be cool with that. He didn't take me up on my offer, but one morning when he got out of the shower I just had knew by the look on his face he'd tended to his needs and I said "have a nice little w*** in the shower did you?" His face went bright red and we both went into hysterics laughing. When I told a a friend this story she couldn't believe I'd be so cool with it, she said she would be outraged and also when he told a work colleague the story his colleague told him he should kiss the ground I walk on because his wife would be furious at him for that and would most certainly never come up with the idea of him watching porn whilst she was ill. 

The way I see it is we are all sexual beings and some have higher sexual appetite than others and if they need to get off to a bit of porn or have a toss in the shower it's no big deal.

I really only think it becomes a big deal if it interferes with the sex life/replaces it, or becomes an addiction. 

If a partner is dead against it and it makes them feel insecure then perhaps you shouldn't do it and try to focus your energy into reassuring them and helping them gain confidence, then maybe one day they won't mind a bit of porn. 


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## Loveontherocks (Oct 17, 2016)

Hellomynameis said:


> I hate porn because in college we were shown movies in one of my sociology classes about the back side of the porn industry. Anyone who honestly thinks most porn actresses WANT to be doing it is sadly mistaken. Most of them are forced through fear, intimidation, extreme poverty, or addiction. And despite the illegality, many of them ARE under 18.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Maybe that was a scare tactic so you would all keep your nose in your books and wouldn't drop out of school to become the next big porn star lol...just kidding.




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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Porn isn't an issue in our home, neither of us mind if the other watches and we occasionally watch it together. But as the years roll on there is less and less porn viewing here. Both in our 50's now and we are still having amazing sex, daily, not really much time or need for porn. 

If I was being sexually neglected *and *he was watching porn I would consider ending the marriage.

As for MB in the shower, or anywhere, can't see what the big deal is. His body is his and I love the thought and the sight of him doing it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> The draw or pull for porn (other than my lack of sex life) is that it would not hurt either. The only thing it would really hurt would be my relationship, but the foundation of that problem is on sand more than stone.


Are you sure porn would not hurt you personally, far? Weren't you mentioning a few months back how some men have porn-induced ED issues?

My daughter told me several young men she knows have those problems. They cannot get hard without porn. They suffer performance anxiety with their girlfriends. Their porn dependency has become a sort of slavery they unknowingly sold themselves into.

That is just amazing to me, that men in their early 20s have ED. And from what I read, porn addiction can begin as early as middle school.

Far, your temptation to revert to porn is surely understandable. But it could lead to other problems. Please be honest with yourself about those. It would be sad for you to see all the work you have done on yourself in that area come undone.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

That porn use leads to ED is an old wife's tale. Some young people experience ED (it's also often psychosomatic). There is no relationship with porn. People often pick and chose what they want to believe.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201308/erectile-dysfunction-myth

"Two recent studies have been published by researchers who examined whether there truly is a potential epidemic of porn related erectile dysfunction. Prause and Pfaus published this study in Sexual Medicine, finding that porn use did not predict sexual dysfunction, but instead, predicted higher levels of sexual responsiveness."


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

That is not what I read on this site:

Your Brain On Porn | Evolution has not prepared your brain for today's Internet porn


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> That porn use leads to ED is an old wife's tale. Some young people experience ED (it's also often psychosomatic). There is no relationship with porn. People often pick and chose what they want to believe.
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201308/erectile-dysfunction-myth
> 
> ...


That's an old study. Here's a post I made with a review of _several _ more current studies that say differently.

"
This Review was published in August of 2016 and discusses the trends in prevalence of ED in men under 40. 

Here are some of the key stats:

"Up until the last decade, rates of ED were low in sexually active men under 40, and did not begin to rise steeply until thereafter [1,2]. A 1999 major cross-sectional study reported erectile dysfunction in 5%, and low sexual desire in 5% of sexually active men, ages 18 to 59 [3], and a 2002 meta-analysis of erectile-dysfunction studies reported consistent rates of 2% in men under 40 (except for the preceding study) [2]. These data were gathered before Internet “porn tube sites” enabled wide access to sexually explicit videos with no download required. The first of these “tube sites” appeared in September 2006 [4]."

"In contrast, recent studies on ED and low sexual desire document a sharp increase in prevalence of such dysfunctions in men under 40.....the Global Study of Sexual Attitudes and Behavior (GSSAB)....[found that] in just a decade, things changed radically. The 2001–2002 rates for older men 40–80 were about 13% in Europe [5]. By 2011, ED rates in young Europeans, 18–40, ranged from 14%–28% [6]".

Here were some other studies:

* In 2012, Swiss researchers found ED rates of 30% in a cross-section of Swiss men aged 18–24 using the International Index of Erectile Function (IIEF-5) [8]. 
* A 2013 Italian study reported one in four patients seeking help for new onset ED were younger than 40, with rates of severe ED nearly 10% higher than in men over 40 [9].
* A 2014 study on Canadian adolescents reported that 53.5% of males aged 16–21 had symptoms indicative of a sexual problem [10]. Erectile dysfunction was the most common (26%), followed by low sexual desire (24%), and problems with orgasm (11%). 
* Another 2015 study on men (mean age approximately 36), reported that ED accompanied by a low desire for partnered sex is now a common observation in clinical practice among men seeking help for their excessive sexual behavior, who frequently “use pornography and masturbate” [15].

But the one that caught my attention was this one:

"A 2016 study by this same group assessed sexual problems in <b>adolescents (16–21 years) in five waves over a two-year period. For males, persistent problems (in at least one wave) were low sexual satisfaction (47.9%), low desire (46.2%), and problems in erectile function (45.3%).</b> The researchers noted that over time rates of sexual problems declined for females, but not for males [11]".

The ages of the men suffering ED is astounding to me.

The review goes on to explain how porn is affecting the incidents of ED. Interesting read for anyone who has the time."

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I can't see from any of the text that there is a clear and evidence-based correlation between porn usage and ED which conclusively proves that porn causes ED. (I will read it more carefully when I have the time or perhaps you could highlight the relevant paragraph which states this?). I can see a lot of statistics about ED in young men and I can see how someone linked it to porn. I can also see how it's easy to mix up cause or effect (a lot of young people watch a lot of porn, some of them happen to have ED, must be porn).
As I said, there are so many studies on the internet that contradict each other on the subject, it's easy to pick any one to prove an argument. 
This is only dated 4 days ago: Utah Lawmakers Are Targeting Porn, Again, Using Poor Science | The Huffington Post

And from a few weeks ago:
Op-ed: Anti-porn school program misrepresents science | The Salt Lake Tribune

"The op-ed from FTND activists disregarded the scientific method. The scientific method requires forming a falsifiable hypothesis, then creating experiments to disprove this hypothesis. Only if data consistently fail to disprove the hypothesis can one conclude that the hypothesis is supported, not proven. The FTND letter suggests that (a) there has been rigorous testing seeking to disprove the hypothesis that pornography is addictive or harmful, (b) this testing has consistently failed to disprove this hypothesis, and (c) no contradictory evidence has been found. None of these claims is true....

*Positive effects include enhancing sex, including sexual desire for the current partner, comfort with one's own appearance, comfort for sexual-orientation minorities, feelings of happiness and joy and reducing violence and sexual assaults and physical pain. Sex-film viewing also has been associated with more egalitarian attitudes, higher education, more prayer and religiosity at high use, and are commonly used in sex therapy. Female sex film performers have higher self-esteem than matched controls.*

At a minimum, it is clear that sex films do not have even primarily negative effects. Teaching children that science unequivocally indicates negative outcomes from sex films, as FTND does, is inaccurate. Further, it is harmful, because the conceptualization of behavior as "addictive" has documented significant psychological harm and caused boys to think they have erectile dysfunction when they do not."

I can also understand how masturbating a lot could cause not wanting to have as much sex. The problem here is more with self control rather than porn itself.

Finally, from "first hand" experience, I can categorically say that porn had absolutely no negative impact on my sex life and on any of my male friends' sex life or that of couples' that we know. In fact, I would say the exact opposite: it made me understand my sexuality better and explore more things and be more daring with my wife. Which resulted in her becoming much more fulfilled sexually. She seems to have fun with "porn-like" games from time to time even more than I do.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I can't see from any of the text that there is a clear and evidence-based correlation between porn usage and ED which conclusively proves that porn causes ED. (I will read it more carefully when I have the time or perhaps you could highlight the relevant paragraph which states this?). I can see a lot of statistics about ED in young men and I can see how someone linked it to porn. I can also see how it's easy to mix up cause or effect (a lot of young people watch a lot of porn, some of them happen to have ED, must be porn).


I admit there is A LOT of information to weed through. Lots of published research referenced in that review. I'll take a look at it while at work and pull out the pertinent information.




inmyprime said:


> As I said, there are so many studies on the internet that contradict each other on the subject, it's easy to pick any one to prove an argument.
> This is only dated 4 days ago: Utah Lawmakers Are Targeting Porn, Again, Using Poor Science | The Huffington Post
> 
> And from a few weeks ago:
> ...


I'll read the articles but honestly, I don't normally put any weight on articles based on studies that were not published or reviewed. Most of the time, I'll read articles like the one on Huffington Post and then realize that the articles are not published or peer reviewed. Anyone could write anything, put it on the internet and call it SCIENCE.

My rule is if it isn't on PubMed, then I ignore it. 



inmyprime said:


> I can also understand how masturbating a lot could cause not wanting to have as much sex. The problem here is more with self control rather than porn itself.
> 
> Finally, from "first hand" experience, I can categorically say that porn had absolutely no negative impact on my sex life and on any of my male friends' sex life* or that of couples' that we know*. In fact, I would say the exact opposite: it made me understand my sexuality better and explore more things and be more daring with my wife. Which resulted in her becoming much more fulfilled sexually. She seems to have fun with "porn-like" games from time to time even more than I do.


You state that couples you know have not had negative impacts on their sex life from porn. How do you know this? Do you sit with the couple and talk about your personal/private sexual lives?

I can tell you with 100% certainty what happens in my life. I can't tell you what happens in my close family, friends, or neighbors life because it's all 2nd hand information. Your friends can be telling you one thing but the truth is very different. Just saying.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Lila said:


> You state that couples you know have not had negative impacts on their sex life from porn. How do you know this? Do you sit with the couple and talk about your personal/private sexual lives?
> 
> I can tell you with 100% certainty what happens in my life. I can't tell you what happens in my close family, friends, or neighbors life because it's all 2nd hand information. Your friends can be telling you one thing but the truth is very different. Just saying.


Mostly from "locker room" talks. In fact I knew of almost all my male friends' & colleagues' porn preferences (what type of porn they watch) and they would often brag when they have tried this or that with their wife/gf which they saw in a porn flick and especially when the wife ended up being over the moon over one particular act (I am not really comfortable with these talks and never liked divulging such intimate details but it was then funny to compare "notes" with my wife, whose female friends also shared intimate details on occasion...). Of course it's all anecdotal. And of course in some instances porn *can* cause problems for an individual or a couple in some instances. I am just calling towards not trying to over-generalise and extrapolate ones experience (perhaps I am guilty of it myself, since my experience was so different). And I think if there was proof one way or another, it would be pretty easy to see it all over public news and it would become an accepted fact. 
I am not sure it is an accepted fact.

PS: The links from the second link I posted (inside the article) are also worth a read IMO.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> I thought the remark was pretty funny actually, but thanks nonetheless, JLD. I can laugh at myself just fine...
> 
> :grin2:
> 
> As for the last paragraph, no, I don't. The one thing that stops me from messing with substances (alcohol, others) is my health and my want to remain in top physical condition to compete in jujitsu. The draw or pull for porn (other than my lack of sex life) is that it would not hurt either. *The only thing it would really hurt would be my relationship,* but the foundation of that problem is on sand more than stone.


It would hurt more than your relationship. It would hurt you. 

At best porn is like overeating on cheap ice cream. You have the high from the sugar but you feel like crap afterward. On top of that you increase your chances of a heart attack.

With porn you will not only lose your time but you will miss opportunities to improve yourself or make a better life for your family. 

I understand it is very hard with your wife at the moment. But can't you find better activities than porn to fill the time you would have normally devoted to your wife?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

UMP said:


> I think women fail to realize that we husbands are not as motivated by our wives looks as they think we are. A sexy attitude and an open mind in regards to sex trumps looks every damn time.
> 
> My wife is 50 years old and she is sexier to me today than when we first got married. Truth.
> 
> That's my opinion and I'm stickin to it!


OMG, this.

Obviously, some men watch porn for the women (ie. certain body type, age, looks, whatever) but I think the majority of us watch it because the women are _sexual_. Even if it's acting.

Far too many of us married folks have sex lives that go something like this:






So to be able to watch and fantasize about somebody who's in to it, that's the general idea.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> That porn use leads to ED is an old wife's tale. Some young people experience ED (it's also often psychosomatic). There is no relationship with porn. People often pick and chose what they want to believe.
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201308/erectile-dysfunction-myth
> 
> ...


You know, I do wonder as well in terms of cause and effect. For example, I think it is generally more acceptable now for guys to discuss ED issues. It may just happen to correlate with access to porn which is readily available now, so a link is somehow made (i.e. more guys are reporting ED, it must be porn related). For all we know though, ED among young men may have been present for a long time, but often went un-diagnosed or the guy kept to himself. Also take into account studies that show men on average now have lower testosterone levels vs years past (whether due to environmental factors or other), and there could be many other factors that explain this (porn is just the easy scapegoat). 

All I know, I watched plenty of porn when I was younger and it had zero impact on me. If I decided to pick up a porn habit now do I think it would cause performance issues, not necessarily, the only issue being I would just need to make sure I have enough time in between the porn session and when I may need to use Pete's Dragon again (which would be more of an aging issue) lol.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

jld said:


> Are you sure porn would not hurt you personally, far? Weren't you mentioning a few months back how some men have porn-induced ED issues?
> 
> My daughter told me several young men she knows have those problems. They cannot get hard without porn. They suffer performance anxiety with their girlfriends. Their porn dependency has become a sort of slavery they unknowingly sold themselves into.
> 
> That is just amazing to me, that men in their early 20s have ED. And from what I read, porn addiction can begin as early as middle school.


I've been viewing pornography sometimes infrequently through to sometimes frequently, throughout my whole adult life. I have also masturbated with or without porn either once and often twice a day, almost every day of my adult life as well.

Yet with multiple sexual partners, through 28+ years of very frequent sex. I haven't suffered from premature ejaculation or erectile dysfunction.

Today as a 45 year old man I still have no trouble at all masturbating 1-2x a day and frequently having sex with my wife 1-2x a day with no performance issues all days of any week. There are still some times when we have sex 3x a day on weekends or holidays as well, again with no performance issues. I also have no trouble reaching orgasm and time permitting or otherwise can go quickly or long as opportunity affords.

That said I have slowed down over the years so 2-4 orgasms a day is my comfort zone now, whereas in the past I could go a lot more on any given day. The thing is my wife these days tends to like having sex mostly no more than 1-2x a day most days of the week, so it all works out well. I expect I'll continue to slow down as I get older though, yet it is unlikely to be because I view pornography or masturbate.

As to 20 year olds suffering from erectile dysfunction, I'd be looking at obesity, anxiety, depression and or religiously inspired shame and self loathing, long before I'd look to pornography consumption for cause.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> With porn you will not only lose your time but you will miss opportunities to improve yourself or make a better life for your family.


I don't think this is a good way of putting it. Not too many folks gonna be self improving at 1am or whatever when they have time for a spank.

I do think that porn does act as an opiate and makes it less likely for someone to deal with the problems in their relationship. But, maybe that's just projection on my part!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Mostly from "locker room" talks. In fact I knew of almost all my male friends' & colleagues' porn preferences (what type of porn they watch) and they would often brag when they have tried this or that with their wife/gf which they saw in a porn flick and especially when the wife ended up being over the moon over one particular act (I am not really comfortable with these talks and never liked divulging such intimate details but it was then funny to compare "notes" with my wife, whose female friends also shared intimate details on occasion...). Of course it's all anecdotal.


Okay, this makes more sense. You don't necessarily know if the couples were okay with it. All you know is that your male friends are okay with it. I don't say this to discredit anything they said to you....they did share their porn habits/use and feelings about it.....but that's not an indication of how their _wives_ truly feel. Based on what I've read here and elsewhere, some of the wives would be pro-porn themselves, some would be anti-porn, and some would be indifferent to it. That's just the reality. 



inmyprime said:


> And of course in some instances porn *can* cause problems for an individual or a couple in some instances. I am just calling towards not trying to over-generalise and extrapolate ones experience (perhaps I am guilty of it myself, since my experience was so different). And I think if there was proof one way or another, it would be pretty easy to see it all over public news and it would become an accepted fact.
> I am not sure it is an accepted fact.


The data shows that ED is on the rise, especially in younger men. The reasons are not clearly known at this time because frankly, there hasn't been a whole lot research done on the subject. It wasn't a problem in youth historically so researchers didn't spend much time or money on studying it. It's apparently more of a problem now so expect to see more research on it in the future. 

All of the back and forth on whether porn causes ED reminds me of the cigarette causes cancer debate back in the late 70s. Only time will tell if the porn = ED argument holds water or not.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Lila said:


> Okay, this makes more sense. You don't necessarily know if the couples were okay with it. All you know is that your male friends are okay with it. I don't say this to discredit anything they said to you....they did share their porn habits/use and feelings about it.....but that's not an indication of how their _wives_ truly feel. Based on what I've read here and elsewhere, some of the wives would be pro-porn themselves, some would be anti-porn, and some would be indifferent to it. That's just the reality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




But.... smoking DOES cause cancer. Science & and studies figured it out pretty quickly! (And proved it conclusively). I would say it is more like: "masturbation can cause you to go blind". Many people believed it too. I'm sure that if one made a survey of all the males who masturbated to porn when young and later had eye sight problems, it would be possible to make a "statistically significant" link for the findings to appear in a journal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Lila said:


> The data shows that ED is on the rise, especially in younger men. The reasons are not clearly known at this time



I'm not quite clear how this links to porn: is this based on the premise that porn is somehow more stimulating than the real thing and therefore males become less sensitive to real sex? My experience and observations don't bear this out. Porn is nowhere near as stimulating as the real thing (no matter how kinky the video clip). I have never felt I would need to prefer a video clip over the actual act.

I could see merit in resorting to porn due to fear of potentially being sexually rejected since it's so easy & convenient to just "knock one out". But it is by no means more stimulating (for me).

I can also see that young males would find it more difficult to have a raging erection when they are inexperienced or have sex for the first time with a new partner. Performance anxiety and many other psychosomatic issues can be at play in the beginning of a relationship. I always thought that women would suffer from it more (they need to feel more relaxed and some women frequently don't learn how to climax until they are more comfortable with their partner and/or their bodies.. of course it is not as obvious nor is it a hindrance if a woman isn't wet enough than a limp....).

I experienced performance anxieties myself (at the beginning). I don't think it had anything to do with ED OR porn. I was simply not relaxed & "in the moment" enough. Once i became more comfortable with my wife as the whole sex thing, I never once not had an erection in the next 20 years of our lives together when I needed it.

With porn, there is obviously no such thing as performance anxiety.

I wonder how they classify "ED"? Is it a blanket word for not getting it up or are there specific criterias that need to be met to rule out any psychosomatic issues?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Personal said:


> I've been viewing pornography sometimes infrequently through to sometimes frequently, throughout my whole adult life. I have also masturbated with or without porn either once and often twice a day, almost every day of my adult life as well.
> 
> Yet with multiple sexual partners, through 28+ years of very frequent sex. I haven't suffered from premature ejaculation or erectile dysfunction.
> 
> ...


Not sure what your history has to do with far's?

He suffers from ED. Why would he want to risk worsening it by reverting to porn? In particular knowing he was addicted to it, even moreso than to alcohol and meth?

The men on the site I linked share in great numbers how just getting off porn gave them back their sexual health. Lots of men, all the same deliverance. I would trust their experience rather than a psychologist who is not convinced there is such a thing as sex addiction.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> is this based on the premise that porn is somehow more stimulating than the real thing and therefore males become less sensitive to real sex? My experience and observations don't bear this out. Porn is nowhere near as stimulating as the real thing (no matter how kinky the video clip). I have never felt I would need to prefer a video clip over the actual act.


I think it's a two part problem.

On one hand, the user becomes accustomed to certain sex acts being portrayed and is well aware of what turns them on, they may become expectant on it. They may just have stumbled on something kinkier than usual and discover that they become a little more reliant on seeing it.

On the other hand, the user knows how to touch themselves, and does it to the extent that it takes that specific stimulation to remain aroused/orgasm.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Lila said:


> Okay, this makes more sense. You don't necessarily know if the couples were okay with it. All you know is that your male friends are okay with it. I don't say this to discredit anything they said to you....they did share their porn habits/use and feelings about it.....but that's not an indication of how their _wives_ truly feel. Based on what I've read here and elsewhere, some of the wives would be pro-porn themselves, some would be anti-porn, and some would be indifferent to it. That's just the reality.


I did mention that me and my wife cross-referenced our notes for a reason. My wife's friends were the girlfriends or the wives from those of my male friends in many cases...The stories did gel and it was sometimes funny to see a different perspective, depending who was telling the story (the contradiction would usually amount to the timing: the wife would often report a much quicker time to finish  But some of the best ideas (that the women ended up enjoying) actually came from trying out new things, and some of them came from porn...

I agree of course that not all women are ok with a bit of kink in the bedroom. It takes a lot of trust, respect and knowing each other very well sexually in order to even discuss those things without embarrassment.
One of the most exciting aspects (sexually) of the relationship with my wife was figuring out what her kinks were (she would be too shy to openly tell me in the past). I know I am also extrapolating here but it makes me believe that every woman has particular preferences, outside of conventional vanilla-sex universe (that's not to denigrate vanilla sex in any way) and it is up to the partner to try and figure them out and take the partner beyond it (if dialogue is difficult or in some cases the woman may not even know herself exactly what she likes and discovers it later in life, either through experience or though trying different things with different partners).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

toblerone said:


> I think it's a two part problem.
> 
> On one hand, the user becomes accustomed to certain sex acts being portrayed and is well aware of what turns them on, they may become expectant on it. They may just have stumbled on something kinkier than usual and discover that they become a little more reliant on seeing it.
> 
> On the other hand, the user knows how to touch themselves, and does it to the extent that it takes that specific stimulation to remain aroused/orgasm.


But in that case, all porn has done in this scenario was discover something what the person was already predisposed to like. He could have easily discovered it without porn too.

I think it's difficult here without getting into specifics: unless it's some ridiculous and unreasonable act/request, I am not sure why it would be a problem to discuss certain preferences with your partner and see how it can be incorporated into each others love making (this applies both ways). From the thread however, it's fairly obvious that many women will be very insulted if it was something their husband saw in a porn video, before even hearing what it was. If it's a blanket "no" to all requests, I can see why some men would find it more convenient to resort to porn, yes.
I really believe it's a communication & trust issue in the majority of cases.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> *I'm not quite clear how this links to porn: is this based on the premise that porn is somehow more stimulating than the real thing and therefore males become less sensitive to real sex?* My experience and observations don't bear this out. Porn is nowhere near as stimulating as the real thing (no matter how kinky the video clip). I have never felt I would need to prefer a video clip over the actual act.
> 
> I could see merit in resorting to porn due to fear of potentially being sexually rejected since it's so easy & convenient to just "knock one out". But it is by no means more stimulating (for me).
> 
> ...



Changes in brain chemistry have been linked to porn use. How much is required to generate that link is unknown but the link is definitely there. 

I posted this on another thread discussing porn. It was showing how the brain handles oxytocin.

"Studies have shown that when someone is in a healthy sexual relationship , oxytocin is released into the brain. "Oxytocin is known to increase feelings of attachment, connection, and trust." It's naturally released during sex.

Watching porn triggers the release of oxytocin as well, effectively bonding the person to that experience. *Over time, the bond becomes stronger and stronger literally bonding the watcher to a sexual experience coming from a computer screen, not from their partner. *"

ED could be the result of the brain not get enough oxytocin stimulation from partnered sex rather than porn. More studies are being conducted in this area of brain chemistry.



inmyprime said:


> I wonder how they classify "ED"? Is it a blanket word for not getting it up or are there specific criterias that need to be met to rule out any psychosomatic issues?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Erectile dysfunction is defined as "the inability to get and keep an erection firm enough for sex." Drs. only consider it a problem if it becomes an ongoing issue. In other words, if it is a rare occurrence, it's not an issue. If it's happening more often than not, it's an issue.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I did mention that me and my wife cross-referenced our notes for a reason. My wife's friends were the girlfriends or the wives from those of my male friends in many cases...The stories did gel and it was sometimes funny to see a different perspective, depending who was telling the story (the contradiction would usually amount to the timing: the wife would often report a much quicker time to finish  But some of the best ideas (that the women ended up enjoying) actually came from trying out new things, and some of them came from porn...


Yes, but that's not what we're discussing. Are the wives okay with their husband's masturbating to porn? That's the OP's question. 



inmyprime said:


> I agree of course that not all women are ok with a bit of kink in the bedroom. It takes a lot of trust, respect and knowing each other very well sexually in order to even discuss those things without embarrassment.



I think you're making a huge leap here. Women who are not pro-porn does not equal no kink in the bedroom. There are women that are not okay with watching porn but ARE kinky in the bedroom. They don't need the visual stimulation and/or have an excellent creative side. 




inmyprime said:


> One of the most exciting aspects (sexually) of the relationship with my wife was figuring out what her kinks were (she would be too shy to openly tell me in the past). I know I am also extrapolating here but it makes me believe that every woman has particular preferences, outside of conventional vanilla-sex universe (that's not to denigrate vanilla sex in any way) and it is up to the partner to try and figure them out and take the partner beyond it (if dialogue is difficult or in some cases the woman may not even know herself exactly what she likes and discovers it later in life, either through experience or though trying different things with different partners).


I agree that it's up to the individuals in a relationship to figure out each others likes/dislikes in the bedroom. That has nothing to do with porn.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Lila said:


> Changes in brain chemistry have been linked to porn use. How much is required to generate that link is unknown but the link is definitely there.
> 
> I posted this on another thread discussing porn. It was showing how the brain handles oxytocin.
> 
> ...


How can they know that oxytocin is linked to porn and not to masturbation itself? I read that this hormone is actually released during masturbation. 
If there was any link, I wonder why I watch less and less porn, instead of more (just thinking out loud). They should make a study and get a bunch of males to masturbate to videos unrelated to sex (cat's playing piano etc) for a prolonged period of time and see if they develop a "bonding".
As a male, I completely can not relate to porn addiction but I fully appreciate that this can be a problem, as much as any addiction can be and don't want to sound as if I dismiss it lightly (I don't).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I thought we were discussing how porn may or may not have a negative influence on a relationship and it's important to address potential reasons WHY the partner might have objections.

But it's not a problem, I think I have said more than enough on that subject.
I will keep an eye on the news when they actually prove any of the assertions mentioned here.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> How can they know that oxytocin is linked to porn and not to masturbation itself? I read that this hormone is actually released during masturbation.
> If there was any link, I wonder why I watch less and less porn, instead of more (just thinking out loud). They should make a study and get a bunch of males to masturbate to videos unrelated to sex (cat's playing piano etc) for a prolonged period of time and see if they develop a "bonding".
> As a male, I completely can not relate to porn addiction but I fully appreciate that this can be a problem, as much as any addiction can be and don't want to sound as if I dismiss it lightly (I don't).


Like I said, there are studies being done now on the subject. Findings should prove interesting.

Look, people are going to engage in activities that they feel like engaging in. All of the research in the world will not convince people otherwise. I say if you like porn, and your partner is accepting of it, fap away to porn all day long if that's what makes you happy. At the end of the day, we're responsible for our own choices. My only advice is make wise choices.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> If there was any link, I wonder why I watch less and less porn, instead of more (just thinking out loud).


There is a tendency to think "but that's not how it happens for me, therefore it must not happen". But we are all different and have different sexual drives and capacities. Some people (of any gender) can and do mess up their natural sexual arousal circuits by viewing porn to excess. I have never heard of this happening when porn was just an infrequent amusement. I don't think that every person would mess up their natural responses by excess porn viewing, but not everyone will become an alcoholic from excess drinking, either. It kind of depends on how long the behavior goes on. Eventually, the body of anyone, whether they are prone to alcoholism or not, would develop a dependence on alcohol if the excess drinking never stopped, and this could occur quickly like within a month of daily drinking.

I don't see porn as a slippery slope, per se, but like alcohol, there are risks that some people don't know about and don't even ask about because they enjoy the feeling they get from drinking alcohol and they just go with it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Lila said:


> *Over time, the bond becomes stronger and stronger literally bonding the watcher to a sexual experience coming from a computer screen, not from their partner. *"


Oxytocin I think is released from physical touch such as a back rub or cuddling. It is the "this is the person I belong with and this is my family" hormone. It is not necessarily a sexual hormone but more of a bonding hormone.

Porn likely releases testosterone by tricking the brain into thinking sexually receptive females are present. Then instead of oxytocin the hormone adrenaline is released because the brain knows it is in the presence of strangers and people that are unknown. Call it a "sexual fight or flight" response to the likely hood that unknown competing males may object to the presence of the male viewer. Because we are smart enough to know that other males will not jump out and attack us through the computer screen, the adrenaline then serves to really enhance the testosterone. 

The experience of *testosterone + adrenaline* is something very addictive and extremely difficult to replicate with a long term spouse. Think of oxytocin and adrenaline as opposite hormones in the sense that one relaxes you and the other ramps you up. In contrast the experience of testosterone + oxytocin is much more mild and less exciting (like a back rub resulting in a soft orgasm).

Now when you learn to combine all three *testosterone + adrenaline + oxytocin* the adrenaline superpowers BOTH testosterone and the oxytocin into somewhat a hysterical bonding experience. This can ONLY be achieved with a long term partner in my opinion and is exponentially way freaking better than a solo experience with porn. To those that achieve that, the afterglow lasts for days. Each time you do it, it keeps getting better and better and better and better. Afterwards porn seems incredibly boring, and I have experienced myself with an opportunity to view porn after an experience like I described with my wife, and the result is that porn will just not even come close to getting me excited, I have to turn it off and think of what I have planned next with my wife! 

So the question becomes HOW does a man get adrenaline + testosterone + oxytocin with his wife? I find topping from the bottom by teaching her exactly what things drive me crazy so that she can be in full control (which she likes) works the best. She says her favorite thing is just jumping on top of me, knowing exactly what to do or not to let me do, and just watching me explode beneath her is something she simply can't resist. 

Badsanta


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> There is a tendency to think "but that's not how it happens for me, therefore it must not happen". But we are all different and have different sexual drives and capacities. Some people (of any gender) can and do mess up their natural sexual arousal circuits by viewing porn to excess. I have never heard of this happening when porn was just an infrequent amusement. I don't think that every person would mess up their natural responses by excess porn viewing, but not everyone will become an alcoholic from excess drinking, either. It kind of depends on how long the behavior goes on. Eventually, the body of anyone, whether they are prone to alcoholism or not, would develop a dependence on alcohol if the excess drinking never stopped, and this could occur quickly like within a month of daily drinking.
> 
> I don't see porn as a slippery slope, per se, but like alcohol, there are risks that some people don't know about and don't even ask about because they enjoy the feeling they get from drinking alcohol and they just go with it.


I don't think this tendency would be as apparent if the rest of my post wasn't lost in the quote: "I fully appreciate that this can be a problem, as much as any addiction can be and don't want to sound as if I dismiss it lightly (I don't)."

It's difficult to express a complex issue in just one sentence and thats when quoting snippets doesn't really help.

If I am not mistaken, alcohol is proven to make people physically addicted to it and cause liver cirrhosis as well as a host of other health issues (as well as ED). It's up to the individual to drink it responsibly. I wonder why there are so many more posts on women worrying about their husband's porn habits and not more threads on husband's drinking habits and risks of potential alcohol addiction.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

There actually ARE lots of threads by both men and women concerned about their spouse's drinking, all over TAM. They show up in different sections but there have always been a solid amount of posts about this problem.


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> I don't think this tendency would be as apparent if the rest of my post wasn't lost in the quote: "I fully appreciate that this can be a problem, as much as any addiction can be and don't want to sound as if I dismiss it lightly (I don't)."
> 
> It's difficult to express a complex issue in just one sentence and thats when quoting snippets doesn't really help.
> 
> If I am not mistaken, alcohol is proven to make people physically addicted to it and cause liver cirrhosis as well as a host of other health issues (as well as ED). It's up to the individual to drink it responsibly. I wonder why there are so many more posts on women worrying about their husband's porn habits and not more threads on husband's drinking habits and risks of potential alcohol addiction.


I can certainly start a thread about my husband's alcoholism. I did, actually, when I first joined TAM. That's really why I'm here. People seem to like talking about sex. Sex, sex, sex. Alot of these threads revolve around it. Some of the posters, I believe, are sex addicts. Anything can become an addiction, however I think some women feel threatened by porn. At this point, it's the least of my worries. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

badsanta said:


> The experience of *testosterone + adrenaline* is something very addictive and extremely difficult to replicate with a long term spouse. Think of oxytocin and adrenaline as opposite hormones in the sense that one relaxes you and the other ramps you up. In contrast the experience of testosterone + oxytocin is much more mild and less exciting (like a back rub resulting in a soft orgasm).
> 
> Now when you learn to combine all three *testosterone + adrenaline + oxytocin* the adrenaline superpowers BOTH testosterone and the oxytocin into somewhat a hysterical bonding experience. This can ONLY be achieved with a long term partner in my opinion and is exponentially way freaking better than a solo experience with porn. To those that achieve that, the afterglow lasts for days. Each time you do it, it keeps getting better and better and better and better. Afterwards porn seems incredibly boring, and I have experienced myself with an opportunity to view porn after an experience like I described with my wife, and the result is that porn will just not even come close to getting me excited, I have to turn it off and think of what I have planned next with my wife!
> 
> ...


I think test + adrenaline can be created with a long term partner, too. It just becomes a type of game, where you remove the oxy part of it (at least during the testy part) and you ramp up the adrenaline part.

Though I agree that all three with a long term partner is the shizzle.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Oxytocin I think is released from physical touch such as a back rub or cuddling. It is the "this is the person I belong with and this is my family" hormone. It is not necessarily a sexual hormone but more of a bonding hormone.
> 
> Porn likely releases testosterone by tricking the brain into thinking sexually receptive females are present. Then instead of oxytocin the hormone adrenaline is released because the brain knows it is in the presence of strangers and people that are unknown. Call it a "sexual fight or flight" response to the likely hood that unknown competing males may object to the presence of the male viewer. Because we are smart enough to know that other males will not jump out and attack us through the computer screen, the adrenaline then serves to really enhance the testosterone.
> 
> ...


The hormonal interplay is quite interesting and something I didn't know much about. I always wondered why I used to have these performance anxieties at the very beginning or when with a brand new partner. I am now sure hormones played a part. I think I needed to be "bonded" to the new person first (I could never work out whether it was an emotional or physical problem), before I could fully enjoy and go with the experience. The one time I tried a one night stand thing, it didn't work well at all. I am not sure it's because I wasn't attracted to the woman (although there wasn't much attraction from my side). I think it was more to do with the fact that I wasn't bonded with her hormonally. Once I am bonded with someone, it seems to take time for me to unbond, if that makes sense. This seems to explains why I don't generally feel like having sex with any other woman apart from my wife (I may find someone aesthetically and objectively attractive but not in a "I need to sleep with her" kind of way). I always felt self conscious about it when in my teens and thought I had some form of ED because all my guy friends were sleeping around, left and right. Now I see it as a positive thing (well, my wife certainly does and whatever pleases the boss is good with me!  
I did wonder at one time if I missed out on things because of this. Anyway, I will read up more on hormones. Thanks for bringing this up.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

I think the hormonal interplay is a good point. I find myself becoming sexually attracted to my wireless mouse!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

toblerone said:


> I think the hormonal interplay is a good point. I find myself becoming sexually attracted to my wireless mouse!


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I'm not quite clear how this links to porn: *is this based on the premise that porn is somehow more stimulating than the real thing and therefore males become less sensitive to real sex?*




No sh1t Sherlock.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

CuddleBug said:


> I hear what you are saying.
> 
> For me, I expect my woman to take care of herself and not let herself go.
> 
> ...





What does your pastor say?


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Good Guy said:


> Every day I live as an adult married man I've controlled my sex drive to stop hitting on attractive women. This is the reality.




Wow, you're my hero. You are just so awesome.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

"I'm not quite clear how this links to porn: is this based on the premise that porn is somehow more stimulating than the real thing and therefore males become less sensitive to real sex?"



notmyrealname4 said:


> No sh1t Sherlock.


Facts don't bear this out though in the majority of cases. The fact that the majority of guys prefer real women, in spite of watching porn (and 99.99% of guys do watch porn) makes this a false premise.
There are always exceptions of course.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

badsanta said:


>


So basically I'll be hiding her face and staring at the tits. Worked for me back in my younger years in the singles scene, don't see why it couldn't work now!


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> "I'm not quite clear how this links to porn: is this based on the premise that porn is somehow more stimulating than the real thing and therefore males become less sensitive to real sex?"
> 
> 
> 
> ...





While I still think you are full of it; or completely clueless. I have to hand it to you. 

You are being nice to me when I'm deliberately being rude to you.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> While I still think you are full of it; or completely clueless. I have to hand it to you.
> 
> You are being nice to me when I'm deliberately being rude to you.


My apologies, that's probably due to the fact that I spent too much time in Britain.
Would you prefer me to be rude back to you as well? I might have to offer you a cup of tea first :wink2:

Which part am I full of? You really think men actually prefer porn to real women?
Why are there any children or families I wonder.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> My apologies, that's probably due to the fact that I spent too much time in Britain.
> Would you prefer me to be rude back to you as well? I might have to offer you a cup of tea first :wink2:
> 
> Which part am I full of? You really think men actually prefer porn to real women?
> *Why are there any children or families I wonder.*




I spent time in Britain too, but in Scotland; rude, brash af most of the time.

Yeah guys can cum in a woman and get her pregnant; that doesn't mean it was the most exciting sexual experience.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

UMP said:


> I view porn like alcohol consumption.
> 
> Person "A" drinks every day, becomes an alcoholic and destroys himself and his family.
> 
> ...




How's Church going? Are you a "pastor" or a "deacon"?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> How's Church going? Are you a "pastor" or a "deacon"?


Not a pastor
Not a deacon
Yes, I do go to Church
Why?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

UMP said:


> Not a pastor
> Not a deacon
> Yes, I do go to Church
> Why?


She was just making silly comments to get banned.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> She was just making silly comments to get banned.


I would assume that her question is, how can a church going person be OK with porn?

That IS a fair question and I will try to answer.

If I am to be truthful, I sometimes have a difficult time rationalizing it. The Bible (God's Word) says that I should not commit adultery and Jesus Christ specifically states that even visually lusting after another women IS committing adultery.

So, how can a Christian sneak around this Christian "fact" and watch porn? Answer, I can't. 
I realize that I am a sinner from my core, from head to toe. I was born in sin and I will be rotten to my core till the day I die. The only good in me is my re-birth in Jesus Christ, my Lord and my Savior. 

The fact of the matter is, I can try to be as good or better than best person on earth and in God's eyes, I will still be a sinner, still be at enmity against the perfect, sinless God who created me.

Where does this leave me? It leaves me in a bind. On one hand I abhor everything about my sinful self, on the other hand I cleave to my perfect God and would give EVERYTHING in this world up to be with Him in eternity, yet I must live my life till I get called up for judgment.

I have NO defense other than the sacrificed blood of Jesus Christ. Do I literally commit adultery against my wife? No, I have not in 25 years and pray I never do. Do I watch porn and then make love to my wife? Yes, I do.

God will be my judge and Jesus Christ will be my lawyer. I rest in Him. I have no other defense.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

UMP said:


> Do I literally commit adultery against my wife? No, I have not in 25 years and pray I never do. Do I watch porn and then make love to my wife? Yes, I do.


Does your wife know that you watch porn to get yourself ready to have sex with her? More to the point, does your wife know that you NEED porn to get yourself pumped up to have sex with her? If so, what are her feelings on the subject? 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Lila said:


> Does your wife know that you watch porn to get yourself ready to have sex with her? More to the point, does your wife know that you NEED porn to get yourself pumped up to have sex with her? If so, what are her feelings on the subject?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Yes, she knows. Sometimes she even gives me a BJ to completion while I watch. 

"Does my wife know I "need" porn to get myself pumped up to have sex with her?"

"Need" is not the correct word. "Want" would be more applicable. I "want" to take Viagra before sex. I "want" to slather on testosterone cream daily for better sex. I "want" some wine before sex. I "want" to watch porn before sex with my wife. 

Why? Because when I do so I can rock her world like I was 25 years old. 
I have a dirty little secret and that's the fact that I do all of the above to have better sex with my wife. My wife and I realize at 55 years old (me) and 50 years old (her) respectively we are having the ABSOLUTE best sex of our lives.

As I said in a previous post I feel like I'm married to my mistress and not my wife of 25 years. In fact, sex with my wife is currently the single most enjoyable experience in my life. I believe my wife enjoys it too. If you had seen her orgasm last night you would most likely agree.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

UMP said:


> Yes, she knows. Sometimes she even gives me a BJ to completion while I watch.
> 
> "Does my wife know I "need" porn to get myself pumped up to have sex with her?"
> 
> ...


Do you think you'd be able to perform sexually without the porn? Maybe just the viagra, testosterone, and wine? 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Lila said:


> Do you think you'd be able to perform sexually without the porn? Maybe just the viagra, testosterone, and wine?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I think, for him, it's a bit like asking my wife if she could go to the party without dressing up first and putting on makeup. She COULD, but would feel a hell of a lot better with getting done up first. I don't need or want porn to get aroused for sex with my wife, or any of the other stuff, 'm only in my mid 40s so come back to me when I'm 55 ... things are probably going to be a lot different.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Lila said:


> Do you think you'd be able to perform sexually without the porn? Maybe just the viagra, testosterone, and wine?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I get the question, but you must understand that sex to a man is a very touchy subject in regards to our "ego." Sure, I could probably perform sex without any of those things, but it would not be as good for either of us. At my age I would feel like less of a man because I would literally be "less" of a man without. I have tried. 

We have both figured out a way to accommodate our sexual personalities. We have sex twice a week every Tuesday and Friday. As those days near I gear myself up and lose myself in the moment of sex. It's as if I leave planet earth and descend into a pseudo heaven for 30 minutes twice a week. It's a welcome respite that we both enjoy. 

I want sex to be as pleasurable as possible without crossing the line. My line is other (actual) people in the bedroom. Short of that, anything goes.

Said in a different way, why would a guy purchasing a new car select the 400 horsepower version instead of the 200 horsepower one that get's much better fuel mileage, less expensive, cheaper to insure, easier to fix and easier to re-sell? Because it's simply more fun.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> The hormonal interplay is quite interesting and something I didn't know much about. I always wondered why I used to have these performance anxieties at the very beginning or when with a brand new partner. I am now sure hormones played a part. I think I needed to be "bonded" to the new person first (I could never work out whether it was an emotional or physical problem), before I could fully enjoy and go with the experience. The one time I tried a one night stand thing, it didn't work well at all. I am not sure it's because I wasn't attracted to the woman (although there wasn't much attraction from my side). I think it was more to do with the fact that I wasn't bonded with her hormonally. Once I am bonded with someone, it seems to take time for me to unbond, if that makes sense. This seems to explains why I don't generally feel like having sex with any other woman apart from my wife (I may find someone aesthetically and objectively attractive but not in a "I need to sleep with her" kind of way). I always felt self conscious about it when in my teens and thought I had some form of ED because all my guy friends were sleeping around, left and right. Now I see it as a positive thing (well, my wife certainly does and whatever pleases the boss is good with me!
> I did wonder at one time if I missed out on things because of this. Anyway, I will read up more on hormones. Thanks for bringing this up.


That's really interesting. I appear to be like this too.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

UMP said:


> I get the question, but you must understand that sex to a man is a very touchy subject in regards to our "ego." Sure, I could probably perform sex without any of those things, but it would not be as good for either of us. At my age I would feel like less of a man because I would literally be "less" of a man without. I have tried.


Okay, so here's my last question. Do you think you could get the same 'jump' if the porn was homemade starring your wife?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Good Guy said:


> I think, for him, it's a bit like asking my wife if she could go to the party without dressing up first and putting on makeup. She COULD, but would feel a hell of a lot better with getting done up first. I don't need or want porn to get aroused for sex with my wife, or any of the other stuff, 'm only in my mid 40s so come back to me when I'm 55 ... things are probably going to be a lot different.


See, I think it's more like a wife getting dressed up but maybe opting to wear flats instead of high heels. It's nice but not necessarily needed. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Lila said:


> Okay, so here's my last question. Do you think you could get the same 'jump' if the porn was homemade starring your wife?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Great question! Yes, I do.
I keep trying but she is petrified that if we both die SOMEONE will find the evidence.:surprise:

I have all the equipment ready to go and I keep asking here and there. I never lose hope that one day this will happen. :grin2:


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't see anything in the bible that would be a prohibition against porn. Adultery clearly means something different. "Lusting" is a tricky one. If you see an attractive woman at the beach, is it "lusting" to find her sexually attractive if you do not act on that attraction? We may need to study the meaning of the words at the time that they were written. 

In the larger picture, they bible really does not make that big a deal about sexuality, even though the later church has done so. For all the complaints about homosexuality etc, I see very little outrage about people working on the Sabbath - and that is a COMMANDMENT.

The bible seems to be about accepting Jesus as savior, about loving your neighbor, about seeking redemption. It seems to me that if people get the basics right, many of these other concerns are pretty trivial in comparison.









UMP said:


> I would assume that her question is, how can a church going person be OK with porn?
> 
> That IS a fair question and I will try to answer.
> 
> ...


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Lila said:


> That's an old study. Here's a post I made with a review of _several _ more current studies that say differently.
> 
> "
> This Review was published in August of 2016 and discusses the trends in prevalence of ED in men under 40.
> ...


When I got with my now wife first, it took me about a month and a half before I could get an erection with her. She was gorgeous, willing and understanding. I didn't have ED - I had a very conservative Catholic upbringing which led to lots and lots of shame around sex. Once I "got going" we were doing it several times a day. 

So I wouldn't put too much weight in anecdotal tales about ED in young guys - there are lots of reasons that they might not be able to "perform" on demand other than the physical - one example would be a nervous guy with girl who is impatient or critical of them. If they are able to get hard on their own there is nothing physically wrong with them.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Lila said:


> Okay, so here's my last question. Do you think you could get the same 'jump' if the porn was homemade starring your wife?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Yep, that is in fact more effective a lot of the time for me than porn (because I remember the feel and all about it much more vividly).

And yes, any heirs going through our stuff will be petrified for life...Not really sure what to do about it actually. Maybe call Tom Cruise and ask for one of those "these tapes will self-destruct in x years" type of gadgets.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Good Guy said:


> When I got with my now wife first, it took me about a month and a half before I could get an erection with her. She was gorgeous, willing and understanding. I didn't have ED - I had a very conservative Catholic upbringing which led to lots and lots of shame around sex. Once I "got going" we were doing it several times a day.
> 
> So I wouldn't put too much weight in anecdotal tales about ED in young guys - there are lots of reasons that they might not be able to "perform" on demand other than the physical - one example would be a nervous guy with girl who is impatient or critical of them. If they are able to get hard on their own there is nothing physically wrong with them.


Exactly. Hence the whole "masturbating to porn causes ED" studies don't even begin to make sense. If you have ED, presumably it will be difficult to masturbate, and what will be the point of watching porn?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lila said:


> Okay, so here's my last question. Do you think you could get the same 'jump' if the porn was homemade starring your wife?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yep, that is in fact more effective a lot of the time for me than porn (because I remember the feel and all about it much more vividly).
> 
> And yes, any heirs going through our stuff will be petrified for life...Not really sure what to do about it actually. Maybe call Tom Cruise and ask for one of those "these tapes will self-destruct in x years" type of gadgets.


I've instructed my sister to collect my laptop upon my untimely death.

I've also told my kids "you know, I can't guarantee there won't be any home made porn in one of those boxes in the attic...I'll try to find it and destroy it before I die so you won't ever have to see it, but hey, if I can't get to it, at least you were forewarned. Be careful when rummaging around my crap after I die".

They both just laughed, but knew I wasn't kidding.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


>


Depending on position, I would argue this is not the most efficient place for camera placement...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> Depending on position, I would argue this is not the most efficient place for camera placement...


Notice photo only shows from head u p :wink2:


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I would much prefer porn of my wife, but there is no way she would be willing to do it. 



Lila said:


> Okay, so here's my last question. Do you think you could get the same 'jump' if the porn was homemade starring your wife?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

AT least for electronic porn you can encrypt the directories so no one will easily stumble on it. I don't mean NSA-proof encryption, just enough that someone won't stumble on it accidentally. 




Faithful Wife said:


> I've instructed my sister to collect my laptop upon my untimely death.
> 
> I've also told my kids "you know, I can't guarantee there won't be any home made porn in one of those boxes in the attic...I'll try to find it and destroy it before I die so you won't ever have to see it, but hey, if I can't get to it, at least you were forewarned. Be careful when rummaging around my crap after I die".
> 
> They both just laughed, but knew I wasn't kidding.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> AT least for electronic porn you can encrypt the directories so no one will easily stumble on it. I don't mean NSA-proof encryption, just enough that someone won't stumble on it accidentally.


Eh, no one uses my laptop. (Actually that's not true...my mom had a friend over awhile back and she told the friend she could use my laptop...yikes!) I don't care, if the friend went through my pictures (unlikely) then she did, and oh well.

Other than that one time, there's no reason for anyone to ever use my laptop. If someone robbed me and took it, I would only be pissed that I didn't get all of them on a thumb drive first.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You should back them up - unless losing them would be an excuse to need to re-film them all....




Faithful Wife said:


> Eh, no one uses my laptop. (Actually that's not true...my mom had a friend over awhile back and she told the friend she could use my laptop...yikes!) I don't care, if the friend went through my pictures (unlikely) then she did, and oh well.
> 
> Other than that one time, there's no reason for anyone to ever use my laptop. If someone robbed me and took it, I would only be pissed that I didn't get all of them on a thumb drive first.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I would much prefer porn of my wife, but there is no way she would be willing to do it.


Mini-tip: she will be much more agreeable once she is properly "in the mood". 
Just keep an iphone close by for a start and make it all seem casual & natural. Don't make a big deal out of it. Try this first, before investing in flood lights, fans and professional fluffers, to avoid disappointment (as otherwise it might only be you & the fluffer on video, then the kids (or whoever discovers the legacy stash) will really ask some serious questions... 

But seriously, conversations & planning beforehand is not so popular, it seems, unless partner is generally very agreeable.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I know, I need to get that done....


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> But seriously, conversations & planning beforehand is not so popular, it seems, unless partner is generally very agreeable.


For me, I want the conversations and planning beforehand...and then I want to be the director and editor....because I have to make sure I'm only filmed at my best angles. >

You gotta delete a lot of horrible bad images to get a handful of world class ones.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agree in general. I my case, its completely out of the question. 

Fun as this is to talk about, some people do find the idea very offensive. Need to suggest it carefully. 



inmyprime said:


> Mini-tip: she will be much more agreeable once she is properly "in the mood".
> Just keep an iphone close by for a start and make it all seem casual & natural. Don't make a big deal out of it. Try this first, before investing in flood lights, fans and professional fluffers, to avoid disappointment (as otherwise it might only be you & the fluffer on video, then the kids (or whoever discovers the legacy stash) will really ask some serious questions...
> 
> But seriously, conversations & planning beforehand is not so popular, it seems, unless partner is generally very agreeable.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

I suppose there are some mormons in Utah that do not use porn for masturbation. But the rest of the worlds men...pretty much all do. Accept the fact, just so long as it does not injure your couple sex play, why worry about it?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Mini-tip: she will be much more agreeable once she is properly "in the mood".
> Just keep an iphone close by for a start and make it all seem casual & natural. Don't make a big deal out of it. Try this first, before investing in flood lights, fans and professional fluffers, to avoid disappointment (as otherwise it might only be you & the fluffer on video, then the kids (or whoever discovers the legacy stash) will really ask some serious questions...
> 
> But seriously, conversations & planning beforehand is not so popular, it seems, unless partner is generally very agreeable.


On the occasions my wife and I bother to go there, she is used to me using a professional DSLR with giant flash, soft box, 500 watt lights/flashes etc, and or video camera plus Go Pro's.

Incidentally in the past, we have shared some of our sexually explicit photography (no videos) online before for free. So it's fair to say we have produced and shared some of our own amateur pornography.

That said although our production values are high end, since we don't post any images that have shown anything above the lips we're pretty anonymous. Despite the lack of face shots, at one point my wife had a bit of a following. The biggest thing that surprised me when we shared some of our stuff, was that I also sometimes got requests to photograph other women.


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## hifromme67 (Oct 30, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I don't see anything in the bible that would be a prohibition against porn. Adultery clearly means something different. "Lusting" is a tricky one. If you see an attractive woman at the beach, is it "lusting" to find her sexually attractive if you do not act on that attraction? We may need to study the meaning of the words at the time that they were written.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Lusting means to have a strong sexual desire for someone, doesn't have to mean you acted. So you are sinning if you are looking at someone and lusting, if they are not your spouse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mollymolz (Jan 12, 2017)

For me it's because our sex life is barely there. It makes me feel like I'm competing with porn and porn is winning. Ultimately it is a very lonely experience and I'm wondering why I'm still trying. 

Sent from my E2306 using Tapatalk


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

So many porn threads so many different thoughts. 

I have struggled on and off throughout my life with porn. My wife found out after about 25 years or marriage and we had a frank discussion about it. She was more concerned about it consuming my life (it wasn't) and I was more embarrassed than anything. For me it was a humbling experience in many ways and for a great while it was under control. A couple of years later I realized one day that my wife was quite detached from me and that sex was almost non existent. This was the beginning of the downward spiral of our relationship. Porn became my fall back and the result was ED. 

Over time we had more discussions about porn. I had become a cheater because I watched it. At the same time I found she was watching it as well as reading it. It became a double standard. This was even more humbling. To make matters even a bit more complex my daughter discovered (by uncleared history) that I watched porn and confronted me about it. For me this was about as humbling as it got.

The result of all this is that my daughter and I have been able to have frank discussions about porn usage and the negative effects it has. She was able to tell me she struggled with it since she was a young teen and struggles with it now if she is depressed. She recognizes that it drags her down even farther when she watches it.

I regret watching it at all. It has added nothing of value to my life and it has complicated my marriage in ways I never saw coming. The world is a different place than it was 5 years ago. The easy access to porn has negatively contributed to that in my opinion.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mollymolz said:


> For me it's because our sex life is barely there. It makes me feel like I'm competing with porn and porn is winning. Ultimately it is a very lonely experience and *I'm wondering why I'm still trying. *
> 
> Sent from my E2306 using Tapatalk


Why are you?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

RClawson said:


> So many porn threads so many different thoughts.
> 
> I have struggled on and off throughout my life with porn. My wife found out after about 25 years or marriage and we had a frank discussion about it. She was more concerned about it consuming my life (it wasn't) and I was more embarrassed than anything. For me it was a humbling experience in many ways and for a great while it was under control. A couple of years later I realized one day that my wife was quite detached from me and that sex was almost non existent. This was the beginning of the downward spiral of our relationship. Porn became my fall back and the result was ED.
> 
> ...


There is a site that offers education and support for quitting porn that you might find very helpful: 

Your Brain On Porn | Evolution has not prepared your brain for today's Internet porn


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> I don't see anything in the bible that would be a prohibition against porn. Adultery clearly means something different. "Lusting" is a tricky one. If you see an attractive woman at the beach, is it "lusting" to find her sexually attractive if you do not act on that attraction? We may need to study the meaning of the words at the time that they were written.
> 
> In the larger picture, they bible really does not make that big a deal about sexuality, even though the later church has done so. For all the complaints about homosexuality etc, I see very little outrage about people working on the Sabbath - and that is a COMMANDMENT.
> 
> The bible seems to be about accepting Jesus as savior, about loving your neighbor, about seeking redemption. It seems to me that if people get the basics right, many of these other concerns are pretty trivial in comparison.


I agree.

I am not religious by any stretch of the imagination, but I went to Catholic school :smthumbup:

My take-away from the commandments etc. is that you are to do no harm to anyone.

Given that Ump's 'lust' is having the opposite effect, I can't see a problem. Mrs. Ump knows, participates, and reaps the rewards from his 'lustful' behaviour. It's having a positive effect on their marriage.

The problem with religion, as it's always been, is people's literal translations of the words written, not to mention their own personal biases. Technically speaking, if you're in an open relationship, or are swingers, that is forbidden according to the bible. It's adultery. The reality is both parties are aware, accepting and can reap rewards from this type of arrangement, possibly even strengthening the marriage. If you have explicit permission, or even encouragement, from your partner to have sex with others, it's not really adultery, is it?

Personally, I don't think @UMP should feel any shame whatsoever for his proclivity for porn, given that it serves a purpose, a beneficial one at that, and actually serves to strengthen his marriage and his bond with his wife.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Before I say this, let me first say that I am as imperfect as most. I struggle with lust, envy, and gluttony daily in my life.

That said, for those debating or rationalizing what is or is not sin, it does not take one to act upon an impulse to qualify.

_"Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

Matthew 15:17-20_

_"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

Mark 7:21-23_

This is why we pray for God to purify our hearts. This is where it all begins.

_"Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me."

Psalms 51:10_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Before I say this, let me first say that I am as imperfect as most. I struggle with lust, envy, and gluttony daily in my life.
> 
> That said, for those debating or rationalizing what is or is not sin, it does not take one to act upon an impulse to qualify.
> 
> ...


That is a very good verse, far, appropriate to this conversation.

You know looking at porn is wrong, no matter the justifications offered by any here. Porn does not purify anyone's heart. It incites and feeds lust.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Here is one government addressing the motive and effects of porn on the world:

_The CBI has said that *it’s difficult to curb violent cyber pornography because of the huge demand from India’s “domineering male population” that has an “insatiable lust and penchant for salacious material, including violence against women*.”

This huge demand makes internet and content providers continually move from one blocked website to another, making detection difficult, the investigating agency told the Supreme Court on Thursday.

*Violent and sexually explicit material depicting women and children in demeaning ways are crimes against the nation *that need to be handled by a centralized mechanism, particularly the CBI, the agency said.

Rape and gang rape represent the oldest and longest continuing instances of a criminal man’s inhumanity on woman. Committing such abhorrent crimes, recording them and disseminating them across the world through internet-enabled media serve to titillate and indirectly embolden other males to commit such heinous crimes. *These not only add to the misery of existing victims but also endanger and threaten the safety of other innocent women and children,” the CBI’s affidavit said*._

Indian men?s lust incite violent cyber porn: CBI to SC


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> That is a very good verse, far, appropriate to this conversation.
> 
> You know looking at porn is wrong, no matter the justifications offered by any here.


No it isn't. 
There seems to be a double standard here: women get offended when sweeping generalisations are made whereas men are supposed to just accept these empty generalisations at face value. If porn was harmful to *your* marriage and *your* circumstances, it is one thing and I have sympathy however there are millions of marriages where watching porn is a healthy part of anyone's sex life, without causing addictions and any other problems and can in fact have a net positive effect in a marriage (balance out HD/LD relationship, prevent cheating, help with getting/sustaining an erection, spice up a "boring" sex life with new ideas and many other things). 

There are many ways how a coupe can deal with a mismatch in their sexual drives: some repress it, some have mistresses, some go on facebook, some buy toys and fantasize about <insert person of interest>, some have affairs, and some watch porn occasionally. The latter is one of the least harmful out of many options, provided it is used responsibly. If the husband prefers porn to sex with _you_ (not "you" specifically but anyone who feels threatened by porn), I am sorry to hear it but in the majority of cases, resorting to porn in favour of spouse is simply a symptom in a marriage that may already be in trouble.

I won't comment on the religious aspect.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jld said:


> Here is one government addressing the motive and effects of porn on the world:
> 
> _The CBI has said that *it’s difficult to curb violent cyber pornography because of the huge demand from India’s “domineering male population” that has an “insatiable lust and penchant for salacious material, including violence against women*.”
> 
> ...


We are not talking about *violence and rape in porn* or advocation and proliferation of sick and illegal porn. I don't see the relevance of this article at all, except that it has the word "porn" in it.

Why not look at statistics closer to home?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...evidence-mounts-more-porn-less-sexual-assault

"If the anti-porn activists are correct, if porn actually contributes to rape, then starting around 1999 as the Internet made it much more easily available, the rate of sexual assault should have increased. So what happened? According to the Justice Department’s authoritative National Crime Victimization Survey, since 1995, the U.S. sexual assault rate has FALLEN 44 percent."

The same applied to all developed countries.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...evidence-mounts-more-porn-less-sexual-assault
> 
> "If the anti-porn activists are correct, if porn actually contributes to rape, then starting around 1999 as the Internet made it much more easily available, the rate of sexual assault should have increased. So what happened? According to the Justice Department’s authoritative National Crime Victimization Survey, since 1995, the U.S. sexual assault rate has FALLEN 44 percent."
> 
> The same applied to all developed countries.


Yep.

PORNOGRAPHY, SEX CRIME, AND PUBLIC POLICY
Berl Kutchinsky Professor of Criminology Institute of Criminology and Criminal Science University of Copenhagen Denmark

http://aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/proceedings/14/kutchinsky.pdf


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

From this paper:

"Conclusion
The aggregate data on rape and other violent or sexual offences from four countries where
pornography, including aggressive varieties, has become widely and easily available during
the period we have dealt with would seem to exclude, beyond any reasonable doubt, that
this availability has had any detrimental effects in the form of increased sexual violence."


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

It's interesting--I was telling my partner about this thread and the different opinions therein, which led him to say, "I'm probably addicted to porn." And it led to a good discussion about porn and our relationship, and what it was like in previous relationships. The final outcome of the conversation was me telling him that I'm fine with it, and enjoy watching it with him, as long as he doesn't start using porn and masturbation as a substitute for me. And he said he would do his best, but if I ever felt like he was starting to do that, that I should say something right away so he can modify his behavior, because he never wants to do that or hurt me in that way. It was a good conversation. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Lila said:


> @Good Guy, I don't think anyone has said that men are not entitled to do whatever they want to do with their bodies. You asked a question, Why do women object to porn in marriage, and you've gotten responses. By your last post it sounds like you weren't really interested in listening to the responses. Instead you seem to have the answers and are looking to push your agenda.
> 
> Instead of wasting time asking 'why women are opposed to porn', why didn't you just tell women your opinion on porn and leave it at that? You would have gotten tons of validation and possibly the debate you seek.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


So if someone asks a question they are not allowed to have their own opinion on the answer? :scratchhead: I am very open to having my mind changed but haven't seen anything yet that would make that happen. And I don't have any "agenda" as you put it.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

jld said:


> Here is one government addressing the motive and effects of porn on the world:
> 
> _The CBI has said that *it’s difficult to curb violent cyber pornography because of the huge demand from India’s “domineering male population” that has an “insatiable lust and penchant for salacious material, including violence against women*.”
> 
> ...


This proves the suppression and shaming language around porn leads to more rape and sexual violence. As we've already seen, countries with more open availability of porn have seriously decreased levels of rape and sexual violence than before it was widely available.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Lila said:


> I think it's selfish for a spouse to hide their porn use from a non-approving partner simply because life for them is grand, barring the sex. That's lying.


Of course it is selfish to use porn when your partner does not approve. It is also selfish to demand your partner stop using porn because it bothers you. Easy to resolve when there is a way to get the porn user to be happy about stopping or to get the non-user to approve of their partner watching porn. When neither of those applies, then one or the other is going to end up "winning" the battle of selfishness, unless they break up.

And yes, it is selfish to stay with someone and do something you know they don't like. But divorce is painful and expensive. Totally understandable that one or the other partner (or both) would prefer to stay married and get their way even though it causes their partner discomfort. No, that is not optimally loving in either direction. But sometimes not wanting to lose custody of your kids or half your income and assets pushes people to do selfish and unloving things. Not admirable. But completely understandable.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> Of course it is selfish to use porn when your partner does not approve. It is also selfish to demand your partner stop using porn because it bothers you.


This is a really interesting point of view. 

At some point one person has to give in. 

But there is a third way - to agree to the porn and also have a great sex life. It was actually surprisingly easy to lure my husband away from porn. It turned out that I had the winning hand. It also turned out the reason I hated it so much is because *I was sexually frustrated, I just didn't know it. I didn't realise how much sex I actually needed to not be threatened by other women*. I also didn't realise how much sex my husband needed to not be interested in porn.

I hate to read women being accused of being controlling when it comes to porn, for the simple reason that nobody can control you without your consent. If a woman does not like her husband using porn it is up to him draw up his own boundaries and be honest, compassionate yet firm about the reality of the situation. Telling her he doesn't use it or will stop is lulling her into a short term false sense of security which ultimately causes larger problems than just porn.

"I know you don't like it, and I am sorry for hurting you. But when we don't have sex there is a good chance I may use porn. But I will be discrete and make sure I delete it." 

At least that way she knows where she stands and can either come to terms with it or walk away. By being consistently honest eventually the arguments and nagging stop and it just becomes a reluctant acceptance (like all the other bad habits we learn to put up with). :grin2:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I do wonder, how much of porn watch in relationships (not talking about those who watch together) is in part due to issues in the relationship (drive mismatch, sexual needs not being met, etc...) versus just a desire to watch porn?


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## Lizzyb (Mar 29, 2017)

EllisRedding said:


> I do wonder, how much of porn watch in relationships (not talking about those who watch together) is in part due to issues in the relationship (drive mismatch, sexual needs not being met, etc...) versus just a desire to watch porn?


I'm curious about this as well


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

One data point: I watch porn because my wife very rarely wants sex. If we had an active and varied sex life I think I would watch little or not porn - though its possible that after all these years I'm addicted. 

I watch to relieve sexual tension, and to vicariously enjoy sex acts that my wife won't engage in. 



EllisRedding said:


> I do wonder, how much of porn watch in relationships (not talking about those who watch together) is in part due to issues in the relationship (drive mismatch, sexual needs not being met, etc...) versus just a desire to watch porn?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I am in the same boat with @uhtred.

And yes, of course, being open and honest and creating a wonderful sex life together is the optimal outcome. Some couples can't get there, even after open conversation, MC, ST, etc. Most of those couples are probably best off divorcing. But some stay together because of finances, kids, feeling of obligation, etc. Some people feel, after trying and failing to create a fulfilling sex life with their spouse, that using and hiding porn is better than divorce. Yes, that is selfish and manipulative. But so is repeatedly rejecting one's spouse sexually, unless they told their spouse before marriage and kids that is what they intended to do.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I do wonder, how much of porn watch in relationships (not talking about those who watch together) is in part due to issues in the relationship (drive mismatch, sexual needs not being met, etc...) versus just a desire to watch porn?


I used to think my husband just loved porn....and there was nothing I could do about it. But for 2 1/2 years he has not used porn alone, we have sex almost every day. He tells me he isn't interested in porn and has no temptation. 

So I don't think porn is that big a deal to him as long as he has regular sex - he prefers actual sex. 

It was really that easy.

However, I know that at some point in the future I will get sick, or go away on holiday without him or develop a decreased drive, I will have to come to terms that he will use porn again. Hopefully I will have learned a few things along the way and cope with it better than I did in my 20's. But for us it was definitely a relationship problem (along with a few childhood ghosts that needed to be exorcised). Porn is a smoke screen to other issues imo.


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## Lizzyb (Mar 29, 2017)

In response to the main question. I don't use any toys for myself and never have. I woudn't even know what to do with a vibrator lol I'm 41 years old and have been able to just use my own touch to masturbate if I feel the desire. I don't read erotic or romantic novels and I dont even watch those types of movies. I realize it's not real and it could possibly skew my opinion on what real romance is so I have always avoided it. I have however used my imagination at times to enhance sex and or masturbation which can also be a slippery slope. I try to just focus on the feeling now however. 

Why I have a problem with my partner using porn I guess because I want to be his relief for sexual tension or desire. I don't want to feel like someone else can get him off. I have always had good self esteem, but this recent issue finding out about occasional porn use has really affected me. I feel like I'm not desirable enough, even though I know I am especially after seeing the images. I think it just feels like maybe I am not as great as I thought. Or like "oh wow he finds that attractive!" It's insulting. Of course the porn use has only been used when I wasn't available but I feel like people should have enough self control to wait. 

I do feel that people who use it because their spouse won't have sex have a valid reason if they tried to communicate and it's not working. It's a relationship issue that takes 2 to create the issue and 2 to resolve and if one is not willing then you have no choice to resort to other measures


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

As for myself, I can say that if I had an active/fulfilling sex life (which of course, each person will have their own definition of what that means) I would have basically zero interest in porn. At this point though, and maybe where I am a little different than others, I rather just avoid porn or any type of "stimulation" as I find it just makes things easier on myself, less frustration and resentment.

Funny side note, this past Saturday I had a few free minutes before the gym opened in the morning so I hopped over to pornhub which I can't even remember before that the last time I had been on that site. This message popped up, I almost crapped my pants lol. They nailed a lot of people on April Fools Day!


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lizzyb said:


> Why I have a problem with my partner using porn I guess because I want to be his relief for sexual tension or desire. I don't want to feel like someone else can get him off. I have always had good self esteem, but this recent issue finding out about occasional porn use has really affected me. I feel like I'm not desirable enough, even though I know I am especially after seeing the images. I think it just feels like maybe I am not as great as I thought. Or like "oh wow he finds that attractive!" It's insulting. Of course the porn use has only been used when I wasn't available but I feel like people should have enough self control to wait.


Hmmm ... tough one. If I am traveling away from home for a week, and let's say either my W or I get an "urge", should we have to wait until we get the opportunity together, IDK? I think the question, is it causing harm, and probably the answer can vary. Factor in many other variables (drive mismatch, work/family situation, etc...) and I would think you could at least understand why "people should have enough self control to wait" is not always the best answer (especially when there is a drive mismatch, who is waiting for who?).


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## Lizzyb (Mar 29, 2017)

EllisRedding said:


> Lizzyb said:
> 
> 
> > Why I have a problem with my partner using porn I guess because I want to be his relief for sexual tension or desire. I don't want to feel like someone else can get him off. I have always had good self esteem, but this recent issue finding out about occasional porn use has really affected me. I feel like I'm not desirable enough, even though I know I am especially after seeing the images. I think it just feels like maybe I am not as great as I thought. Or like "oh wow he finds that attractive!" It's insulting. Of course the porn use has only been used when I wasn't available but I feel like people should have enough self control to wait.
> ...


I think that's where communication comes in and being open to discuss how to handle that. For us we are never apart over night so that wouldn't come up but if it did and we did talk about it we have options such as Skype sex, photos, maybe just our imagination while on the phone


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lizzyb said:


> I think that's where communication comes in and being open to discuss how to handle that. For us we are never apart over night so that wouldn't come up but if it did and we did talk about it we have options such as Skype sex, photos, maybe just our imagination while on the phone


Agreed, communication is key. It also requires both people being on the same page, etc... For example, in your case, something like skype/phone sex may not be appealing to your H. Maybe even then your schedules might not match up (i.e. traveling in different time zones, etc...). Especially when there is a drive mismatch, being on the same page can be very problematic (as seen very often here on TAM). Definitely no right or wrong answer.


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## gt30743 (Apr 10, 2017)

I don't have a problem watching porn, I watch it with him. As long as it isn't a substitute, which it isn't in our relationship, for me.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

So lets say you are married for 25 years. The sex is becoming mundane, boring, in a rut. HOW are you supposed to get NEW IDEAS for new sexual methods, positions, techniques? From video porn and from written porn. You might insert a different term other than "porn", like maybe "the kama sutra" or "Cosmopolitan", or "the adam and eve website". But unless you are willing to explore for new ideas...HOW can you keep the married sex fresh????


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Talker67 said:


> So lets say you are married for 25 years. The sex is becoming mundane, boring, in a rut. HOW are you supposed to get NEW IDEAS for new sexual methods, positions, techniques? From video porn and from written porn. You might insert a different term other than "porn", like maybe "the kama sutra" or "Cosmopolitan", or "the adam and eve website". But unless you are willing to explore for new ideas...HOW can you keep the married sex fresh????




If you're lucky your s turns you on still. But I agree it's important to work hard on intimacy. For many that means external stimulus to ensure that you don't let life's responsibilities make dad, mom, provider, cleaner, cook, maintenance man... roles keep you from switching to Husband and Wife roles. I think the most important point is to have both spouses make the commitment to switch to h and w mode at the same time. Otherwise time can pass and couples can grow apart.

So I feel it's effort and attention, enhanced / facilitated by erotic materials of various sort


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Husbands that use porn are often overstimulated and may begin having trouble enjoying natural intercourse. 

wives that use toys are often over stimulated and may begin having trouble enjoying natural intercourse.

wives that read romance novels(porn) often have unrealistic views of what real romance is and there fore might have trouble respecting their husband and then lose desire for him.


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## SoSmartJuliet (May 25, 2017)

I see that near the beginning the OP specified that he meant nothing is being taken away from the relationship, they are still sexually active and so on but he occasionally watches porn...that's the scenario?

IME that's rare. Most of my female friends nod and roll our eyes that guys like to look at porn (I'm sure occasionally we do this ourselves) IF our relationship is good. IOW MOST women I know don't make a big deal of it (at all!) under such a circumstance. 

OTOH when I have heard wives complain it's because the husband wants the porn to the exclusion of paying attention to his wife, and not just with sex. I don't know if I'm the only one but historically my husband has been much more emotionally attentive leading up to sex, then the attention dropped off after he was satisfied. But by that same token, if he wasn't bothering to try for sex with me and instead was pulling it daily to 17-year-olds or whatever, then he figured, meh, don't have to actually pay ANY attention to the wife. Score!

It's not as simple as "this is all just so normal, a bajillion men the world over are looking at porn and it's just not affecting their relationship, yet crazily and inexplicably, their wives are controlling harrigans trying to control the circumstances of the husband's erections." That (unrealistic, overall) attitude is the easy way out, IMO, and the easy way to turn it on the wife.

And of course once the wife has been expressing how much this all hurts her, and is even more hurt, indeed angry that the husband is turning it on her with the whole "all guys do this, there must be something wrong with you, Wife, you must be insecure, blah blah" thing, he can, if he is anything like my husband, turn it around on the "angry" "unstable" wife and say "See? See? This is why I HAVE to look at porn, because you get angry and that's soooooooooo unsupportive."

It's a pretty creepy but again, not uncommon (from what I've seen) MO. I mean if we're going to bring up control, instability and manipulation, let's make sure we give credit wherever it's due.

Now. A guy who literally has a great relationship with his wife and glances at porn once in the bluest of moons as intimated above, indeed, even for academic/research purposes to get "new ideas" (sorry...LOL!), but overall everything else is stellar? Well, yeah. I guess if that were the case, and the wife nevertheless were standing there screaming like a shrew that the husband dared ever get an erection without her clearing it first, that would be a problem. But again, I am just not seeing this (somewhat unrealistic, overall) scenario IRL much, nor on forums like this.

Just my $.02.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

SoSmartJuliet said:


> I see that near the beginning the OP specified that he meant nothing is being taken away from the relationship, they are still sexually active and so on but he occasionally watches porn...that's the scenario?
> 
> IME that's rare. Most of my female friends nod and roll our eyes that guys like to look at porn (I'm sure occasionally we do this ourselves) IF our relationship is good. IOW MOST women I know don't make a big deal of it (at all!) under such a circumstance.
> 
> ...


Definition of pornography
1
: the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
2
: material (such as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement
3
: the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction the pornography of violence


we always forget the written word can be porn also.

Romance novels are reaching the levels of visual porn in sales.

I find if ironic that women would bash men when their doing the same thing.

this is a general statement not aimed at anyone


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## SoSmartJuliet (May 25, 2017)

chillymorn69 said:


> Definition of pornography
> 1
> : the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
> 2
> ...


(Before I begin...romance novels are approaching porn viewing levels? Got any support for that? I'm not being combative, but I think you may be mistaken there...That honestly [sorry] sounds like some faux stat someone made up in order to justify his using porn excessively...I could be wrong and will agree that I am given any solid stats. TIA.)

Now, your question. If a wife is substituting romance novels (does anybody really read romance novels? Well, I guess somebody must be, if there's still a market?) for paying attention to her husband, YES, that's a problem. It is, full stop. No argument there.

If a woman is hiding her romance novels, is literally flipping through them and achieving orgasm daily or at least a few times a week, and so on, with fantasy-style very young, amazing-looking men whom a real-life could never have a hope of heck of measuring up to in about a hundred ways, to the tune of, over the years, hundreds of said fantasy men, AND when the husband dares broach this subject she replies that he must be a pretty insecure person, intimating there must be something wrong with HIM - then she just goes deeper into hiding with her several romance novels per week, oh hell yes, of course it's a problem. How could it not be?

However, the OP specified this as a husbands watching porn/wives' reactions question. So I answered that.

But to reiterate, as far as your question, yes, of course if the woman is beating off to romance novels *to the exclusion of* even a portion of the attention, physical or otherwise, that she gives her husband, well, undoubtedly that's a problem.

So, sorry. No irony here. Hope this helps clarify?


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## Remee81 (May 24, 2017)

Well, I have absolutely no issue with DH looking at porn. I read Laurel K Hamilton books and trust me...damn. So why should I be hypocritical about it? 
Porn, often degrades women, doesn't even come close to normal sex, and the women do whatever they r asked to. A wife may feel this makes her look inadequate. I would hope a man would know that porn isn't what his sex life should look like, and make sure she has her needs met. DH only watches porn when I'm hella stressed out with the kids, my house is a circus, kids have tests, trouble with hw, projects, etc. and I am just plain exhausted. I think if he needs "relief" in that department he should feel free to do so. I've seen porn once, I mostly had my head tilted a bit and just didn't get what the fuss was about, but hey to each their own!


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The issue with marketed romance - novels, movies etc, is not women having O's while reading / watching them but their producing an unrealistic standard for behavior. In that way they are just like porn. 

Just as there are very few women who go from nothing to being pounded, to having a screaming O in 2 minutes, and then on to other wild sex, there are few men who can be edgy artists who live in partially furnished lofts with a view of central park. There are no sexy vampires, and carriage rides are not nearly as romantic as they seem in movies. I can think of a whole bunch or reasons that making love in the surf on a beech is a really bad idea.....

Porn and romance are FANTASIES. Anyone who consumes either and thinks that the represent reality is going to have serious relationship problems. 







SoSmartJuliet said:


> (Before I begin...romance novels are approaching porn viewing levels? Got any support for that? I'm not being combative, but I think you may be mistaken there...That honestly [sorry] sounds like some faux stat someone made up in order to justify his using porn excessively...I could be wrong and will agree that I am given any solid stats. TIA.)
> 
> Now, your question. If a wife is substituting romance novels (does anybody really read romance novels? Well, I guess somebody must be, if there's still a market?) for paying attention to her husband, YES, that's a problem. It is, full stop. No argument there.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The Laurel K Hamilton books did rather escalate didn't they :smile2:

I think of the later ones as porn (which is fine). Its interesting that you (I think) enjoy them but don't like porn. 



Remee81 said:


> Well, I have absolutely no issue with DH looking at porn. I read Laurel K Hamilton books and trust me...damn. So why should I be hypocritical about it?
> Porn, often degrades women, doesn't even come close to normal sex, and the women do whatever they r asked to. A wife may feel this makes her look inadequate. I would hope a man would know that porn isn't what his sex life should look like, and make sure she has her needs met. DH only watches porn when I'm hella stressed out with the kids, my house is a circus, kids have tests, trouble with hw, projects, etc. and I am just plain exhausted. I think if he needs "relief" in that department he should feel free to do so. I've seen porn once, I mostly had my head tilted a bit and just didn't get what the fuss was about, but hey to each their own!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Remee81 (May 24, 2017)

uhtred said:


> The Laurel K Hamilton books did rather escalate didn't they :smile2:
> 
> 
> 
> I think of the later ones as porn (which is fine). Its interesting that you (I think) enjoy them but don't like porn.




Yes I can see what u mean, it isn't much different. Some of the later went a bit far for me to be truthful lol but maybe it's just not being a visual person? 


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

chillymorn69 said:


> Husbands that use porn are often overstimulated and may begin having trouble enjoying natural intercourse.
> 
> wives that use toys are often over stimulated and may begin having trouble enjoying natural intercourse.
> 
> wives that read romance novels(porn) often have unrealistic views of what real romance is and there fore might have trouble respecting their husband and then lose desire for him.


Ummmm no.

People who use porn do so for a variety of reasons but rarely does it have anything to do with an inability to enjoy natural intercourse

People who use sex toys do so because they enjoy variety and playfulness in their sexual occurrences.

People who read porn/erotica/romance do so because they enjoy it. Whether they enjoy the eroticism n general, enjoy a fetish, enjoy laughing at the absurdity of traditional romance, or can't get their husband to deliver a decent spanking...it rarely leads to unrealistic expectations, unless of course I expected my husband to morph into a dragon and eat my Richard-head of a next door neighbor for me.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Before I begin...romance novels are approaching porn viewing levels? Got any support for that? I'm not being combative, but I think you may be mistaken there...That honestly [sorry] sounds like some faux stat someone made up in order to justify his using porn excessively...I could be wrong and will agree that I am given any solid stats. TIA.)

sorry I can't seem to post a link

you could do a search on are romance novels addictive. there are plenty of articles on the subject.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> Ummmm no.
> 
> People who use porn do so for a variety of reasons but rarely does it have anything to do with an inability to enjoy natural intercourse
> 
> ...


might be true for you but I don't think you can or should speak for the whole gender.

what I am getting at is romance novels can lead some women to have an unrealistic expectation of what real life romance is Just like porn can give some men an unrealistic view of what a healthy sex life in a long term marriage is.

many people can use said subject material and realize its fantasy and not let it inter fear with their views on the subject. Its a problem as was stated when a partner avoids sex because they are using porn/romance novels to masturbate instead of going to their partner for the real thing.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

The equivalency here is that (generally speaking) men seek sex and women seek romance. Men are more often visual and women are more often moved by language. So men seek porn and women seek books. In both cases, they are seeking that which they desire most.

It's easy for some women to claim the moral high ground since they're not beating off, so it's not like cheating as they believe the man is. But they are pursuing the emotional aspect, which is as meaningful to them as the sexual aspect is to the man. As many have noted, an emotional affair is for a woman is every bit as much outside the marriage as a physical affair is for the man. The same would go for abuse of porn/fictional romance, albeit to a lesser degree.


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## bullyisback (May 23, 2017)

I love watching porn with my wife. Took a while to get her out of her shell. Both sides watch it trust me

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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Some of those "Romance novels" are far from romance! When I was 16 I stayed over at a friend's house and his mom had a "romance novel" in the room and it was as explicit as any porn I've seen ... Even though it had an innocent looking title and cover!


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## SoSmartJuliet (May 25, 2017)

Good Guy said:


> Some of those "Romance novels" are far from romance! When I was 16 I stayed over at a friend's house and his mom had a "romance novel" in the room and it was as explicit as any porn I've seen ... Even though it had an innocent looking title and cover!


Does anyone here legitimately believe women reading romance novels, especially as a masturbation aid, in any way, shape or form comes close to men's porn use?

I am asking this as a serious question.

Has anyone seen porn use stats? Let's be real here.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't read romance novels.....i think they're dumb.

None of my girlfriends do either for the same reason. 

I read a few in my teens but they're so ridiculous now that I'm an adult that I can't take them seriously.

I would bet a lot of women don't bother with them. 

Can the same be said of porn?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't read romance novels.....i think they're dumb.
> 
> None of my girlfriends do either for the same reason.
> 
> ...


The ones I did read, and occasionally still do, contain no sex. None. The majority of the romance novels I read actually have a Christian theme to them. Those that don't, I am careful about selecting ones without sex. 

Now, with that being said, I did happen to read the ones thst everyone went crazy over a few years ago. It got to the point that I was skipping entire sections of the books because of the sex. 

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## SoSmartJuliet (May 25, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't read romance novels.....i think they're dumb.
> 
> None of my girlfriends do either for the same reason.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I mean come on now. Justifying beating off to porn a time or two a week every week of every year by the comparatively very small proportion of women who read romance novels at all, much less some subset who apparently beat off to one or two a week to the exclusion of actual sex is just...yeah, no.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

I read romance novels specifically for the sex scenes when I was in high school... I would bookmark the sex scenes and come back to them and read them again. The rest of the books were mush. But that was the closest I could get to learning about sex at that time, and I certainly wasn't HAVING any sex at that point in my life, so those books were it. Once I started actually having sex, I abandoned those books because I had the real thing. Since then, I've moved onto more advanced, literary forms of erotica. I enjoy it, and it turns me on... but I certainly don't use it as much as my partner uses porn. But we do use both together, so it's shared in that respect... I don't mind that he uses porn, because it doesn't get in the way of our sex life. Hey... the more often he gets aroused, the more often I get to have sex, and he'd rather have sex with me than jerk off alone.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

chillymorn69 said:


> might be true for you but I don't think you can or should speak for the whole gender.
> 
> what I am getting at is romance novels can lead some women to have an unrealistic expectation of what real life romance is Just like porn can give some men an unrealistic view of what a healthy sex life in a long term marriage is.
> 
> many people can use said subject material and realize its fantasy and not let it inter fear with their views on the subject. Its a problem as was stated when a partner avoids sex because they are using porn/romance novels to masturbate instead of going to their partner for the real thing.



Chilly, you've obviously never read a romance. Any woman who reads romance and thinks that's how her relationship should be is....on the dumb side, or maybe incredibly naive, or emotionally immature, or is already a hopeless princess and needs to be rejected a few times before she develops some introspection, reflection and maturity.

So I'm not saying your idea -that romance give women unrealistic expectations- is wrong, I'm saying that when it is right it is because there is something wrong with the woman in question. Does that make better sense?

I personally read erotic literature practically daily. When it is good enough to turn me on, I want the real thing and go to my husband for an assist, and he is very happy to oblige. I think this is true, or truer, for most women who read erotica. If it turns them on, and the have a decent relationship they will turn to their SO's for sex.

Of course some women may avoid sex with their SO's no matter what they read. The problem there isn't the erotica but the sex avoidance and the sex avoidance has a long list of contributing factors none of which are because she already got off alone. Unlike men, women can have sex several times an hour unless she is Uber sensitive and can't tolerate any clit/vag stimulation for a day or so after she orgasms. But those women know their bodies and unless they dislike their husband they're not likely to put themselves in a situation in which they have to turn down sex because she already masturbated that day. Women aren't like men.

In a nutshell, what I'm saying is that women avoid sex and use erotica instead when there is a big problem in the relationship itself. The problem already existed before the erotica. Women are relationship oriented. Being aroused and masturbating, while turning down sex, alienates the relationship and for a relationship oriented woman this is a self limiting behavior. Men, on the other hand, are not as emotionally open, are not given to emotional introspection, and their sexuality is not as closely tied to their emotional connection to their partner. As a result, men are much more prone to alienate their relationship in favor of porn because they don't emotionally connect sex and relationship the way women do.

So yes, women get a pass for erotica consumption because it rarely interferes with their marriage.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> Chilly, you've obviously never read a romance. Any woman who reads romance and thinks that's how her relationship should be is....on the dumb side, or maybe incredibly naive, or emotionally immature, or is already a hopeless princess and needs to be rejected a few times before she develops some introspection, reflection and maturity.
> 
> So I'm not saying your idea -that romance give women unrealistic expectations- is wrong, I'm saying that when it is right it is because there is something wrong with the woman in question. Does that make better sense?
> 
> ...


the biggest pile of bull I ever read!

i could say the same thing about porn and men. men only use it instead of their wife if theres a problem. IE: been turned down too often, or shes a dead fish and don't like to reciprocate things like oral etc.

and how would you feel if your husband just watched some porn and came to you and said hey honey I ready for you now I'm all turn on after watching some chica chicka wow wow.

you have a huge double standard.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

chillymorn69 said:


> the biggest pile of bull I ever read!
> 
> i could say the same thing about porn and men. men only use it instead of their wife if theres a problem. IE: been turned down too often, or shes a dead fish and don't like to reciprocate things like oral etc.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry chilly but it's not bull.

I'd be more than happy to engage.

No double standard here, I'm not slightest bit threatened by porn and he's not the slightest bit threatened by erotica. 

Men who avoid sex in favor or porn are avoiding intimacy. It is not the marriage or relationship, it is the intimacy real live sex requires. 

If a man uses porn because he's been turned down too often, or because his wife is a prude, he isn't avoiding intimacy and porn isn't the problem, his sex life is the problem. First sex life became a problem and then porn entered. So porn didn't cause the problem. 

Women who avoid sex in favor of erotic are avoiding their husband and their relationship.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm sorry chilly but it's not bull.
> 
> I'd be more than happy to engage.
> 
> ...


Hmm, I agree 100%

sorry foe coming on so strong I was thinking this was another bash men and porn while women can cry foul when in essence their doing or falling into the same thing.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

chillymorn69 said:


> and how would you feel if your husband just watched some porn and came to you and said hey honey I ready for you now I'm all turn on after watching some chica chicka wow wow.


My guy will do this. Or sometimes I choose the porn. It turns both of us on. It's great. 

Men are visual creatures, and they like variety. I don't care if he's looking at naked women. Because ah, well, I'm looking at other naked guys when we watch! I'm not threatened by a naked girl on a screen, and he's not looking to get his stick wet elsewhere--he's only interested in me. I have his emotional and physical fidelity, and that's the important thing.



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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agreed, and I think the equivalent of any man who thinks porn represents realistic sex. 

Fortunately most people understand the difference between fantasy and reality: Kids DON'T jump off roofs because they think they can fly like superman....

Unfortunately there is a significant minority who are less clear on the difference and have difficulty having good relationships because their expectations are unreasonable. 



Anon Pink said:


> Chilly, you've obviously never read a romance. Any woman who reads romance and thinks that's how her relationship should be is....on the dumb side, or maybe incredibly naive, or emotionally immature, or is already a hopeless princess and needs to be rejected a few times before she develops some introspection, reflection and maturity.
> 
> So I'm not saying your idea -that romance give women unrealistic expectations- is wrong, I'm saying that when it is right it is because there is something wrong with the woman in question. Does that make better sense?
> snip
> .


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Something that has changed significantly with me - as a reformed porn hater - my husband now makes me feel desirable and attractive. When he failed to do that it became far more threatening. 

Now I look back he never would pursue me or touch me outside the bedroom, sex was rather stale (in that it was in and out and turn over). I would have to ask for compliments or ask for sex as opposed to being wooed. 

So it was no wonder I felt insecure and threatened by porn. Now that he does more of the RIGHT things those hurt feelings have melted away. I don't even mind him eyeing other women because I know I am No.1, at the top of his wish list. 

I wonder if men who have wives who do not like porn are poor in self-confidence from a lack of attention or wooing. Sometimes when we have been married a long time we forget to 'drool' over our nearest and dearest like we once did. Just thought.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

peacem said:


> I wonder if men who have wives who do not like porn are poor in self-confidence from a lack of attention or wooing. Sometimes when we have been married a long time we forget to 'drool' over our nearest and dearest like we once did. Just thought.


This could certainly be a part of it. My mother is adamantly against porn (but doesn't see the hypocrisy in her reading books like Wifey and Fear of Flying); she takes great offense to it. My mother is also incredibly insecure. I've never seen my parents acting affectionate towards one another, but I can't blame my father for not wanting to act affectionate towards her; she treats him very badly.

There may be a correlation, but perhaps not a causation. Much of my mother's disdain for porn comes from the fact that she is very religious, and she definitely sees it as sinful.



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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

My take on porn. I used to have issues with it -

-Insecurity
- Our sex life sucked to the point we were having sex 6 times a year if that. Before that no sex for an entire year and a half.
- I felt like **** about myself because of it. I felt like i was no longer young enough or good enough for HIM.

I have always been very open sexually and not against trying new things. Wake me up anytime anywhere, I don't care.

I got over it. I worked on myself instead. The only person you can change is yourself. I don't care if he watches porn anymore. 

I got toys. I didn't hide them. He says they make him feel inadequate!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ladybird said:


> My take on porn. I used to have issues with it -
> 
> -Insecurity
> - Our sex life sucked to the point we were having sex 6 times a year if that. Before that no sex for an entire year and a half.
> ...


Well he is inadequate! You need a husband who desires you as much as you desire him and your husband can't show that because he likes his hand better than the real thing. 

It's not you. It's your lazy husband.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> Well he is inadequate! You need a husband who desires you as much as you desire him and your husband can't show that because he likes his hand better than the real thing.
> 
> It's not you. It's your lazy husband.


 Its kind of funny, now that I look at it. He didn't care about my feelings then. I don't care if he feels inadequate, now. 

I've spent a lot of years working on me and my issues. It was my issue and i had to get over it. Him not liking me having toys is HIS issue, he needs to get over it, just like I did. Now that the shoe is on the other foot. He doesn't like it. 

I have owned my S*** and i have made myself better because of it. I am no longer insecure with myself.. =)

I am also dabbling in writing steamy erotic romance novels. Been a while since i've written anything, but going to get started back doing that. I have always love writing. So far i have a couple of close friends who i have let read tid bits and they want more. and keep asking me when I am done with it so, so they can buy a copy!!! My husband would probably have a heart attack if he knew what I wrote about ;-)


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ladybird said:


> Its kind of funny, now that I look at it. He didn't care about my feelings then. I don't care if he feels inadequate, now.
> 
> I've spent a lot of years working on me and my issues. It was my issue and i had to get over it. Him not liking me having toys is HIS issue, he needs to get over it, just like I did. Now that the shoe is on the other foot. He doesn't like it.
> 
> I have owned my S*** and i have made myself better because of it. I am no longer insecure with myself.. =)


Hear, hear! And good for you!

btw, most husbands would be quite excited at the prospect of throwing some toys into the mix so long as they get to play too. 

I'm sure there were occasional toys in the porn he watched and ... ahem... enjoyed. Now he's got a living, breathing, and most importantly loving partner willing to share that aspect of her sexuality in person. 

No excuse for not responding enthusiastically to that.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ladybird said:


> Its kind of funny, now that I look at it. He didn't care about my feelings then. I don't care if he feels inadequate, now.
> 
> I've spent a lot of years working on me and my issues. It was my issue and i had to get over it. Him not liking me having toys is HIS issue, he needs to get over it, just like I did. Now that the shoe is on the other foot. He doesn't like it.
> 
> ...





OMG you're me!


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

FeministInPink said:


> This could certainly be a part of it. My mother is adamantly against porn (but doesn't see the hypocrisy in her reading books like Wifey and Fear of Flying); she takes great offense to it. My mother is also incredibly insecure. I've never seen my parents acting affectionate towards one another, but I can't blame my father for not wanting to act affectionate towards her; she treats him very badly.
> 
> There may be a correlation, but perhaps not a causation. Much of my mother's disdain for porn comes from the fact that she is very religious, and she definitely sees it as sinful.
> 
> ...


I'm not religious and I don't see porn as sinful. BUT- I do think it violates the "forsake all others" in marriage that makes the intimacy of seeing each other naked special, IMO. I take a lot of pride in my appearance for my husband, and love my body. It would deeply hurt me if my husband were looking at other naked women instead of me, either online, or at strip clubs. I simply don't like it and find it hurtful.

I think it's the insecure women who will tolerate their husband's gawking at other women in public, IMO. As for tolerating their husband watching porn, I think if it truly doesn't bother a wife, then no problem. But if it does, it takes far more self-confidence to set a higher standard for your marriage than to look the other way. And there's nothing wrong with not wanting your husband to look at other naked women, just like there's nothing wrong with men who do use porn if they are not married and/or their wives truly aren't hurt by it.

As for romance novels, I'd liken those to romance movies, where I enjoy the emotional aspect but am not looking at naked men. My husband finds no issue with either, but I also don't read romance novels because I prefer other genres. If there's a sex scene in a novel, I have no issue reading it.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Hear, hear! And good for you!
> 
> btw, most husbands would be quite excited at the prospect of throwing some toys into the mix so long as they get to play too.
> 
> ...


 He watches occasionally, but he doesn't like the fact I use them alone. It's ironic really.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

ladybird said:


> He watches occasionally, but he doesn't like the fact I use them alone. It's ironic really.


This anomaly is not unusual, I read it all the time. I am still trying to get my head around it but I think it is a control issue. :scratchhead:


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## Mollymolz (Jan 12, 2017)

ladybird said:


> He watches occasionally, but he doesn't like the fact I use them alone. It's ironic really.


That's funny. My husband also gets upset about how my toys are bigger then him and then somehow doesn't understand why I feel I can't compare to a porn star. Funny thing is, is if we had more sex I'd have no need for my toys. 

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Jessica38 said:


> .
> 
> As for romance novels, I'd liken those to romance movies, where I enjoy the emotional aspect but am not looking at naked men. My husband finds no issue with either, but I also don't read romance novels because I prefer other genres. If there's a sex scene in a novel, I have no issue reading it.


To clarify, the books I mentioned (Wifey and Fear of Flying) aren't romance novels. They are very sex-heavy and graphic. They are on a whole different level.

Compare a romance movie to hard core porn. That's the level of difference we're talking about. 

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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

He is not seeing the parallels. 

I have no problems with porn. I have no problems with romance. I have no problems with my wife using any sort of toy she wants. I've bought her some, including a huge one, just for the novelty, we use them as part of our sex play. 




Mollymolz said:


> That's funny. My husband also gets upset about how my toys are bigger then him and then somehow doesn't understand why I feel I can't compare to a porn star. Funny thing is, is if we had more sex I'd have no need for my toys.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm OK with all romance, but the version that is closest to bothering me is not the explicit stuff which I view as written porn and OK, but the stories / movies that present unrealistic images of relationships / men.

My wife went through a phase of complaining that I wasn't "romantic" enough - without being able to verbalize what she wanted. We went on dates, romantic trips together, I sent her love notes and flowers etc etc. I got the feeling that since I wasn't slaying dragons while riding a white charger, I wasn't being sufficiently romantic. 





FeministInPink said:


> To clarify, the books I mentioned (Wifey and Fear of Flying) aren't romance novels. They are very sex-heavy and graphic. They are on a whole different level.
> 
> Compare a romance movie to hard core porn. That's the level of difference we're talking about.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

peacem said:


> This anomaly is not unusual, I read it all the time. I am still trying to get my head around it but I think it is a control issue. :scratchhead:


 I think its a control issue also. I guess I am just supposed to wait for him to not watch porn and to have actual sex. Sorry but not sorry. Not waiting on him any more 

He watches porn, I use toys very rarely do I watch porn. Maybe 2 to 4 times a year, if that.

What's good for the goose!

We are having far bigger issues right now anyway


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## riot112 (Jun 28, 2017)

im not 100% against it, but im.not a huge fan of it either....i have serve bkdy iaaue with myself and although my husband says he loves me the way i am i still feel like im. ot goos enough for him to look at cause im never gonna be one of those girls that can n will do the things they do n look the way the do so i feel like he watchs it n if i dont know or i can make a good guesss when he has watched cause of how thinga are in the bedroom that night he doesnt want to look at me which in turn makes me feel like i have completely failed him as a wife and parnter mind u we have been together for 6 years and married for 2 i guess i disnt have a problem till after we where married n i feel bad saying that abkut myself but ita the truth


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## xitinglife (Jun 25, 2017)

Women are deeply sexual beings (perhaps even more so than men). Their sexuality is tied directly to their emotions and their place in the society (unlike men, for whom most of the time sex is a purely mechanical instinctual activity). Furthermore, women are much more receptive to social paradigms than men. For example, until relatively recently (read late '70s) it was strongly believed that females do not fantasize about sex. So much so, that women themselves reported to have never done it. Those women who displayed sexual openness were not favored by the family-oriented society, both in the east and in the west. Social oppression of females in many eastern societies, for example, is rooted in sexual oppression (and the false belief that has only hardened through generations, that, again, women are not sexual beings but serve only as incubators and caregivers). 

In reality, as I said above, women are in some ways far more sexual than men. Women are also far more competitive than men, and this competitive nature ties directly into their sexuality. Indeed, whereas men compete for a mate to spread his seed, a female, being the child barer, must ensure survival of her offspring and herself, which in many ways depends on having a capable mate with her for a relatively long period of time. A good reference for this would be, for instance, would be "The Mating Mind" by Geoffrey Miller, and "**** Mysterious" by David Barash. 

So, with many females, a male partner watching porn is associated directly with the partner straying for a possibly better fit carrier of his genes, both physically and in terms of social fitness. Also, monogamy has evolved slowly and in many ways is socially induced, rather than physically beneficial (although some evolutionary biologists argue otherwise). Now, females have evolved to compete for males to ensure monogamy for at least a sufficiently long period of time to raise the offspring. Thus, in crude terms, porn watching is associated directly with competition. 

On another note, my wife a few years ago knew I watched porn, but I always did so privately and never involved her in it. She wasn't exactly ecstatic about it, but I was open with her and managed to soothe away her fears and worries (however irrational). However, at some point I decided to simply quit it, and I did (by the way, my sex life was satisfactory, and the porn watching was more of a habit from pre-marriage days, as well as a source of some variety). After I quit, I can honestly say that my sex life has become much more colorful (my wife still being my only partner). I noticed that porn watching numbed my senses to an extent. A few months after I quit, I became more easily aroused, experienced noticeably stronger desire for my wife, became sexually more "aggressive" and my performance improved greatly. Not going back to porn (well, regular porn... I may watch it once in a blue moon, but never masturbate to it). 

Cheers!


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

peacem said:


> This anomaly is not unusual, I read it all the time. I am still trying to get my head around it but I think it is a control issue. :scratchhead:


I would suspect it is an ED issue much of the time. HE wants to be the center of your sexual universe, but is unable to perform often, and seeing a woman using porn and toys to please herself subconsciously hurts his view of his manliness...

That is why masturbation and porn...often is best used as a COUPLES thing. He watches you masturbate, and gets a thrill out of it, possibly getting hard enough to do the deed after a while


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## Jason Bourne (Jul 30, 2017)

Whilst men are addicted to porn women are addicted to reading their own porn: romantic books. It means the same. Men get visually stimulated whilst females get emotionally stimulated. They are both wrong in my books and neither should point fingers at each other.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Jason Bourne said:


> Whilst men are addicted to porn women are addicted to reading their own porn: romantic books. It means the same. Men get visually stimulated whilst females get emotionally stimulated. They are both wrong in my books and neither should point fingers at each other.


What's wrong with romance books? 

FTR- I'm a woman and I don't read romance books, I watch porn.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Jason Bourne said:


> Whilst men are addicted to porn women are addicted to reading their own porn: romantic books. It means the same. Men get visually stimulated whilst females get emotionally stimulated. They are both wrong in my books and neither should point fingers at each other.


Sigh...

This idea that women aren't visually stimulated is nonsense.

I've had a fair number of female sexual partners, of which the majority of them approached me first, asked me out and or offered sex.

A significant part of their attraction towards me in the first instance of getting together was due to visual stimulation. "I love your eyes, you are so sexy, you have a beautiful smile, you are gorgeous, you are so good looking, if you weren't good looking I wouldn't have picked you, you're hot", on and on etc.

My wife often remarks positively on the visual appeal of some men and says that visual stimulation is very important to her and essential for sexual attraction. My ex-wife as all of the other women I have been with have also expressed the same as well.

Likewise exempting some one night stands (since for the most part I have no idea what literature they read), none of the women I am/have been with were into reading romance novels at all. On the other hand they have all enjoyed consuming some pornography.

Visual pornography is great, as is masturbation, written smut and other erotica.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't have a problem with either as long as the consumers realize that both are just fantasy. Anyone who takes porn or romance as a guide to real life is going to be very surprised /disappointed.






SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> What's wrong with romance books?
> 
> FTR- I'm a woman and I don't read romance books, I watch porn.


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## Where there's a will (Feb 10, 2014)

Porn is a response. Its an indicator that all is not well within the marriage. It informs the other partner that basic needs are not being met where they should be being met. It reveals that promises have been broken....she said..'with my body, I honour you' on her wedding day. Needs are having to be outsourced because the deal has been broken. The right response should be a wakeup call of 'omg I've let things slide, Iam so sorry'. The fact that a response of divorce or disdain is forthcoming reveals that the problem is very real. It indicates that she takes no responsibility for what she allowed to happen in the first place and confirms that she has no desire to put things right. This is of course the general problem but Iwouldnt mind betting that for over 50% of porn users this is the scenario. It goes back to the old problem of 'I love you but I'm not in love with you'. Once ones wife stops being ones girlfriend there is likely to be slippage down the road to porn. In conclusion porn is the symptom, not the problem, treat the symptom.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Where there's a will said:


> Porn is a response. Its an indicator that all is not well within the marriage. It informs the other partner that basic needs are not being met where they should be being met. It reveals that promises have been broken....she said..'with my body, I honour you' on her wedding day. Needs are having to be outsourced because the deal has been broken. The right response should be a wakeup call of 'omg I've let things slide, Iam so sorry'. The fact that a response of divorce or disdain is forthcoming reveals that the problem is very real. It indicates that she takes no responsibility for what she allowed to happen in the first place and confirms that she has no desire to put things right. This is of course the general problem but Iwouldnt mind betting that for over 50% of porn users this is the scenario. It goes back to the old problem of 'I love you but I'm not in love with you'. Once ones wife stops being ones girlfriend there is likely to be slippage down the road to porn. In conclusion porn is the symptom, not the problem, treat the symptom.


Well, first off I think this is mostly crap. Men use porn whether they are getting sex or not and many women end up getting replaced by porn and end up sexless 

But even if I were to assume this was true, sexlessness is most often the symptom of a problem. 

Treat the problem of why she no longer wants sex with you. 
Maybe somewhere you forgot to still be a boyfriend, taking her on dates every week and doing nice things, talking and having fun. 
Stopped meeting her emotional needs. Or didn't take the time to learn what she likes in bed, or put out too many "love busters" (like anger is one for me. Truly I don't care if he is angry at me or the guy who just cut him off, anger = turn off. Instantly) 

There's a whole bunch of reasons you can examine to fix the problem.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

He said ---- it's all her fault.
She said --- It's all his fault.

Well this is going nowhere.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think some happy couples use porn. I don't see a problem with porn use IF it doesn't substitute for intimacy with a partner. 

When it does interfere with a couple's sex life (and that does happen frequently) then it is a big problem. 




Where there's a will said:


> Porn is a response. Its an indicator that all is not well within the marriage. It informs the other partner that basic needs are not being met where they should be being met. It reveals that promises have been broken....she said..'with my body, I honour you' on her wedding day. Needs are having to be outsourced because the deal has been broken. The right response should be a wakeup call of 'omg I've let things slide, Iam so sorry'. The fact that a response of divorce or disdain is forthcoming reveals that the problem is very real. It indicates that she takes no responsibility for what she allowed to happen in the first place and confirms that she has no desire to put things right. This is of course the general problem but Iwouldnt mind betting that for over 50% of porn users this is the scenario. It goes back to the old problem of 'I love you but I'm not in love with you'. Once ones wife stops being ones girlfriend there is likely to be slippage down the road to porn. In conclusion porn is the symptom, not the problem, treat the symptom.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Where there's a will said:


> Porn is a response. Its an indicator that all is not well within the marriage. It informs the other partner that basic needs are not being met where they should be being met. It reveals that promises have been broken....she said..'with my body, I honour you' on her wedding day. Needs are having to be outsourced because the deal has been broken. The right response should be a wakeup call of 'omg I've let things slide, Iam so sorry'. The fact that a response of divorce or disdain is forthcoming reveals that the problem is very real. It indicates that she takes no responsibility for what she allowed to happen in the first place and confirms that she has no desire to put things right. This is of course the general problem but Iwouldnt mind betting that for over 50% of porn users this is the scenario. It goes back to the old problem of 'I love you but I'm not in love with you'. Once ones wife stops being ones girlfriend there is likely to be slippage down the road to porn. In conclusion porn is the symptom, not the problem, treat the symptom.


Porn is not a 'symptom' or a 'response'. And if a guy uses porn, why the hell should it be up to the WIFE to solve the problem??? Some guys just like porn. Just like some women just like cheesecake. Eating cheesecake doesn't mean a woman doesn't find her husband attractive any more, or that she is replacing him with cheesecake. It just means she likes cheesecake.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I guess What I'm wondering at this point is, Is it that Cheesecake is never a response, or is it that Cheesecake is not always a response? Could a pattern and history of cheesecake indicate that indeed there is a loss of attraction? And here is the tough question. If it is the Wife who has lost the attraction, why the hell should it be up to the HUSBAND to solve the problem??? 

So final (but admittedly silly) question. I'm Sick and tired of not receiving attraction. Do you think Cheesecake would help?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Porn is not a 'symptom' or a 'response'. And if a guy uses porn, why the hell should it be up to the WIFE to solve the problem??? Some guys just like porn. Just like some women just like cheesecake. Eating cheesecake doesn't mean a woman doesn't find her husband attractive any more, or that she is replacing him with cheesecake. It just means she likes cheesecake.


It's not the cheesecake, it's the beefcake. :wink2:


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## growing_weary (Jul 23, 2017)

I never had a problem with porn, or tumblr sites with gifs/videos on them. I would look at some together or cross share links of things. 

The issue I had, and he totally went there, was chat rooms and cam sites where he was the performer and stuff. Sharing himself through connecting personally with other women online, co-writing stories, or what he looked like, sounded like via skype / phone, or what his junk looked like was way beyond the pale for me. And the mother****er still did it! It's like, even when you're easy-going, a cheater will always go that extra step beyond what's allowed to test boundaries and see how far they can push.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

growing_weary said:


> I never had a problem with porn, or tumblr sites with gifs/videos on them. I would look at some together or cross share links of things.
> 
> The issue I had, and he totally went there, was chat rooms and cam sites where he was the performer and stuff. Sharing himself through connecting personally with other women online, or what he looked like, sounded like via skype / phone, or what his junk looked like was way beyond the pale for me. And the mother****er still did it! It's like, even when you're easy-going, a cheater will always go that extra step beyond what's allowed to test boundaries and see how far they can push.


Same here. And many guys claim they DON'T see the distinction.

What it boils down to is that if your partner has a problem with it IT NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSED. Way too many couples assume they both have the same views about stuff like porn, chat sites, bdsm, sex toys, masturbation and everything else sex, and they never ever talk it out. It NEEDS to be discussed and any discrepancies addressed. Doing it any other way WILL lead to problems.


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## growing_weary (Jul 23, 2017)

Hope1964 said:


> Same here. And many guys claim they DON'T see the distinction.
> *
> What it boils down to is that if your partner has a problem with it IT NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSED.* Way too many couples assume they both have the same views about stuff like porn, chat sites, bdsm, sex toys, masturbation and everything else sex, and they never ever talk it out. It NEEDS to be discussed and any discrepancies addressed. Doing it any other way WILL lead to problems.


Totally agree with bolded. Thing is, we talked about it, he asked, I said "no way" to the chat sites without me there and then the deception began. Why ask if you're just going to do it anyway?ppbpbpbptt 

If some people don't see a difference I don't know what to say. Maybe they can emotionally detach better than my WS. When my husband "graduated" to the chat sites he made "friends" over years and then found his "soulmate" in less than a month so.... you can't do that with a picture, video clip or with whoever brazzer's most famous stars are.


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## growing_weary (Jul 23, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> It's not the cheesecake, it's the beefcake. :wink2:


Why not both?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

growing_weary said:


> If some people don't see a difference I don't know what to say.


They CLAIM to not see a difference. not the same thing as not seeing one.

If it does get discussed and one partner does whatever the hell they want anyway they deserve to have their ass kicked to the curb.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I see the use of porn as very unloving and disrespectful to your spouse. I would never treat my husband that way nor he me. I would never be with a man who was a porn user, I would rather be on my own. I see intimacy as being between us only, no one else whether in person or on a film.
I would divorce a man who used porn and wasn't prepared to stop, I see it as mental cheating. Not that I would be with a man who used porn in the first place. 60% of divorces now cite porn as the main reason.I know 2 marriages that ended because of porn.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

```

```



Diana7 said:


> I see the use of porn as very unloving and disrespectful to your spouse. I would never treat my husband that way nor he me. I would never be with a man who was a porn user, I would rather be on my own. I see intimacy as being between us only, no one else whether in person or on a film.
> I would divorce a man who used porn and wasn't prepared to stop, I see it as mental cheating. Not that I would be with a man who used porn in the first place. 60% of divorces now cite porn as the main reason.I know 2 marriages that ended because of porn.


What about masturbation? Watching 50 shades? Erotic novels? Would you be fine if your husband divorced you over any of those? Because I see no difference.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Good Guy said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> What about masturbation? Watching 50 shades? Erotic novels? Would you be fine if your husband divorced you over any of those? Because I see no difference.


I wouldn't watch fifty shades or read erotic novels. Having said that, I would far rather my partner read a book that didn't involve seeing real people than watched porn. 
I dont see why masturbation not involving porn is wrong for either sex. Say if the wife or husband is away for long periods?


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## Where there's a will (Feb 10, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> I guess What I'm wondering at this point is, Is it that Cheesecake is never a response, or is it that Cheesecake is not always a response? Could a pattern and history of cheesecake indicate that indeed there is a loss of attraction? And here is the tough question. If it is the Wife who has lost the attraction, why the hell should it be up to the HUSBAND to solve the problem???
> 
> So final (but admittedly silly) question. I'm Sick and tired of not receiving attraction. Do you think Cheesecake would help?





Diana7 said:


> I see the use of porn as very unloving and disrespectful to your spouse. I would never treat my husband that way nor he me. I would never be with a man who was a porn user, I would rather be on my own. I see intimacy as being between us only, no one else whether in person or on a film.
> I would divorce a man who used porn and wasn't prepared to stop, I see it as mental cheating. Not that I would be with a man who used porn in the first place. 60% of divorces now cite porn as the main reason.I know 2 marriages that ended because of porn.


There is no way of knowing if you were with someone who used porn, particularly if you are disapproving in response. They may be using porn because their needs are not being met in the marriage. Is it still ok to divorce them then?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Where there's a will said:


> There is no way of knowing if you were with someone who used porn, particularly if you are disapproving in response. They may be using porn because their needs are not being met in the marriage. Is it still ok to divorce them then?


Yes there any ways and I wouldnt marry a man who thought porn was in anyway ok anyway. He wouldn't want me watching porn either, its something that for both of us is a complete no no. 
This excuse of needs not being met, is just that, an excuse. My husband didn't have sex till he married at age 25, and he never used porn. 
Intimacy is for us alone.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Where there's a will said:


> There is no way of knowing . . . ?


Not sure why I was quoted if you didn't bring cheesecake


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Different people are bothered by different things. Some men really don't want their partners using sex toys because they feel that they are being "replaced". Some are OK with vibrators but cant stand the idea of their partner using a realistic dildo. 

Many people fantasize when the masturbate. Is fantasizing about another person different from watching a stranger in a porn video? 

Not saying that your feelings are wrong, just that there are lots of different feelings on this.


Personally I'm OK with anything not involving interaction (as opposed to watching) other people. For some reason I would also be OK with my wife having sex with another woman, just not another man. Not arguing that my feelings make sense, its just how I feel. 




Diana7 said:


> I wouldn't watch fifty shades or read erotic novels. Having said that, I would far rather my partner read a book that didn't involve seeing real people than watched porn.
> I dont see why masturbation not involving porn is wrong for either sex. Say if the wife or husband is away for long periods?


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## Where there's a will (Feb 10, 2014)

Forgiveness and understanding is a very necessary ingredient of a successful marriage. A mans need for sex is exactly what it is. It is not an excuse, it is a fact, many marriages have floundered on misunderstanding or denying this reality. Whether fulfillment of this need by one partner is done by imagination or aided by media in written, verbal or graphic form is arbitrary, they all result in the same outcome of relieving sexual tension. It is up to the individual to first of all grasp these facts and then make their own judgement one way or the other as to whether they accept this as part of their partners needs. It makes no sense to start differentiating stimulus and branding visual porn as any worse than pure fantasy in the mind to fulfill needs.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Good Guy said:


> We've also seen several where the man is good in every other way imaginable and this is his one vice. Still they talk about divorce as the only option.


It may only be his one vice, but its a very serious one that affects the very intimacy and faithfulness at the heart of marriage. 
I definitely see it as a form of unfaithfulness. For both of us its a no no, and if it was long term and the man refused to stop, I would end the marriage. If I knew that something I did was hurting my spouse or causing me to lie to him, I would make sure that I stopped it. I love him and respect him far too much to hurt him in that way. 

I can quite understand women ending their marriage over this, its just so damaging for people and for marriages, and 60% of all divorces now cite porn as the cause. I know 2 women myself who did just that. 

One lady I knew a while back was so fed up with her husbands long term porn use and his refusal to stop, that she said(and meant it) that it was the porn or her. She was ready to leave. He knew she meant it and stopped. Shame she didn't do that years ago.
Another lady I know said that for her it was worse than a physical affair. At least then she said, it would only be one women he was cheating with and not thousands. :frown2:


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> It may only be his one vice, but its a very serious one that affects the very intimacy and faithfulness at the heart of marriage.
> I definitely see it as a form of unfaithfulness. For both of us its a no no, and if it was long term and the man refused to stop, I would end the marriage. If I knew that something I did was hurting my spouse or *causing me to lie* to him, I would make sure that I stopped it. I love him and respect him far too much to hurt him in that way.
> 
> I can quite understand women ending their marriage over this, its just so damaging for people and for marriages, and 60% of all divorces now cite porn as the cause. I know 2 women myself who did just that.
> ...



Porn does not cause one to lie to a spouse, but shame does! 

Relationships are built in trust and communication. Anything that harms those two things will absolutely destroy a relationship. 

So easy to blame porn instead of accepting responsibility that no one is perfect. I strongly believe that god made us all imperfect because it is our imperfections that actually teach us about what loving and accepting someone is really all about. 

Loving someone that is perfect... is that really what love is about?

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Porn does not cause one to lie to a spouse, but shame does!
> 
> Relationships are built in trust and communication. Anything that harms those two things will absolutely destroy a relationship.
> 
> ...


The women I know who ended their marriage over porn use were accepting of their husbands, but for many of us its a form of cheating and completely unacceptable. We all have things that for us are a no no in marriage, for them, me and others one of those things is porn use, especially when the man refuses to stop despite knowing how unhappy its making their wives and how badly its affecting their marriage.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

The Dan Savage model is my go-to on this topic: be respectful. Don't flaunt your porn use. Men should pretend to not use porn and their wives should pretend to believe them.


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## BradWesley2 (Jul 15, 2016)

Cletus said:


> The Dan Savage model is my go-to on this topic: be respectful. Don't flaunt your porn use. Men should pretend to not use porn and their wives should pretend to believe them.


Cletus,

Long time, no see. how goes it my slack-jawed friend?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> The Dan Savage model is my go-to on this topic: be respectful. Don't flaunt your porn use. Men should pretend to not use porn and their wives should pretend to believe them.


Doesn't sound like much of a marriage.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> The women I know who ended their marriage over porn use were accepting of their husbands, but for many of us its a form of cheating and completely unacceptable. *We all have things that for us are a no no in marriage,* for them, me and others one of those things is porn use, especially when the man refuses to stop despite knowing how unhappy its making their wives and how badly its affecting their marriage.


That is perfectly OK. I was just pointing out that "lying" to your spouse is perhaps exponentially more problematic than porn. For those couples that do want to try working through things involving porn, addressing anything that helps remove "shame" is probably going to be more healing for the relationship than compared to just forbidding porn.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Doesn't sound like much of a marriage.


No doubt counseling my wife to leave me over it would result in a much better marriage. 

I'm not telling you to follow advice that does not work for you, so perhaps you could extend me the courtesy of not calling my 32 year marriage a sham.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> No doubt counseling my wife to leave me over it would result in a much better marriage.
> 
> I'm not telling you to follow advice that does not work for you, so perhaps you could extend me the courtesy of not calling my 32 year marriage a sham.


 Then why lie? Why hide things? Why be deceptive? Why do things that hurt your spouse?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BradWesley2 said:


> Cletus,
> 
> Long time, no see. how goes it my slack-jawed friend?


Howdy!

It's going fine, but this topic already contains a great reminder of why long breaks from TAM are necessary.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

badsanta said:


> That is perfectly OK. I was just pointing out that "lying" to your spouse is perhaps exponentially more problematic than porn. For those couples that do want to try working through things involving porn, addressing anything that helps remove "shame" is probably going to be more healing for the relationship than compared to just forbidding porn.


Sometimes it takes a firm stand and clear boundaries for it to stop. Some men will not stop unless they know they will loose their family.


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## BradWesley2 (Jul 15, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Howdy!
> 
> It's going fine, but this topic already contains a great reminder of why long breaks from TAM are necessary.


I hear you brother. TAM has become really lame over the last year or two.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Then why lie? Why hide things? Why be deceptive? Why do things that hurt your spouse?


I will respectfully pass on the opportunity to waste pages of text and hours of my time on a fruitless argument, as we are clearly so far apart on the issue as to have no common ground, and I am now too old and jaded to think otherwise.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Then why lie? Why hide things? Why be deceptive? Why do things that hurt your spouse?


Your question needs a different perspective...

@Cletus said that men should not flaunt certain things and instead should be discrete. It is about being respectful. 

For instance if I want to watch something that has rather graphic content such as "Game of Thrones." My wife is perfectly OK with that and understands that there are some scenes that are very sexual and rather explicit. If I happen to find something arousing, I am not ashamed of that, BUT my wife has asked me that she would rather me not talk about those things nor does she like watching any of the graphic scenes (she is a fan of that series, but would fast forward if given the chance during anything sexual). 

So by not bragging and boasting about how much I might enjoy certain things I see, instead I am discrete and simply do not mention anything. This is considered respectful and my wife has specifically asked this of me. She admittedly does better just pretending to think that I never get a rise out of anything I see in that show. 

NOTHING about that is lying or deceiving. It is a mutual agreement about how to be respectful. Also no one is hurt when everyone knows how to be respectful regarding mature content. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> The women I know who ended their marriage over porn use were accepting of their husbands, but for many of us its a form of cheating and completely unacceptable. We all have things that for us are a no no in marriage, for them, me and others one of those things is porn use, especially when the man refuses to stop despite knowing how unhappy its making their wives and how badly its affecting their marriage.




It’s crazy to break up a marriage over porn (if it’s not at the expense of being intimate with wife).
It stems from a deep misunderstanding by some women what porn actually means to most men: many (myself included) don’t actually pretend to have sex with any of these women when watching porn. The visual helps to come quicker - but hoch is the only objective. And even if some men do pretend, who cares, those are just thoughts. Women read erotic books: what’s the difference?
Also: majority of men have higher drives than their spouses so porn can be a reasonable compromise between leaving your wife in peace and not wanting to kill yourself from rejection.
Better than getting a mistress (not even in the same ballpark).
I mean really....It’s a bit over the freaking top to divorce someone over porn.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Your question needs a different perspective...
> 
> @Cletus said that men should not flaunt certain things and instead should be discrete. It is about being respectful.
> 
> ...


That's a time when your wife has reluctantly said its ok. You know that she would far rather you didn't watch those parts and fast forward, you choose to see them anyway. I wouldn't do that because if my husband asked that I not watch something with sexual scenes in it then I wouldn't out of respect for him, but at least you are not lying to her.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> It’s crazy to break up a marriage over porn (if it’s not at the expense of being intimate with wife).
> It stems from a deep misunderstanding by some women what porn actually means to most men: many (myself included) don’t actually pretend to have sex with any of these women when watching porn. The visual helps to come quicker - but hoch is the only objective. And even if some men do pretend, who cares, those are just thoughts. Women read erotic books: what’s the difference?
> Also: majority of men have higher drives than their spouses so porn can be a reasonable compromise between leaving your wife in peace and not wanting to kill yourself from rejection.
> Better than getting a mistress (not even in the same ballpark).
> ...



I disagree. You clearly have no understanding of what it does to many women when their husband's do this. Its not a choice between porn or having an affair, its a choice between porn or no porn. 
I would never marry a man who was a porn user. Billions of men managed without on line porn until recently. 40-50 years ago it was only magazines, before that practically nothing. 
BTW I don't know any women who read erotic books. Some do yes, but its not the norm. Also a book is nothing like seeing actually people. Not at all.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I will respectfully pass on the opportunity to waste pages of text and hours of my time on a fruitless argument, as we are clearly so far apart on the issue as to have no common ground, and I am now too old and jaded to think otherwise.


 Yes we are, for me its a no no and I would never compromise on that. Its ok though, we are allowed to disagree, that's what people do on here all the time. It doesn't bother me that so many think porn is ok, but it does make me sad when so many reports have come out that say how damaging it is, especially to children and teenagers.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I disagree. You clearly have no understanding of what it does to many women when their husband's do this. Its not a choice between porn or having an affair, its a choice between porn or no porn.
> 
> I would never marry a man who was a porn user. Billions of men managed without on line porn until recently. 40-50 years ago it was only magazines, before that practically nothing.
> 
> BTW I don't know any women who read erotic books. Some do yes, but its not the norm. Also a book is nothing like seeing actually people. Not at all.




See reply on my other thread. I guess you haven’t visited the Roman excavation sites much 
Porn has always been a thing. After invention of camera, it made it more mainstream.

I think you might be making it into too much of a thing. It really isn’t and has usually no deeper meaning apart from visual stimulation to help get to the finishing line quicker.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> See reply on my other thread. I guess you haven’t visited the Roman excavation sites much
> Porn has always been a thing. After invention of camera, it made it more mainstream.
> 
> I think you might be making it into too much of a thing. It really isn’t and has usually no deeper meaning apart from visual stimulation to help get to the finishing line quicker.
> ...


What we have today is hardly comparable to some mosaic of a naked person. 
Its a massive thing that wrecks peoples lives and marriages. When I married I promised to be faithful and that includes in mind as well as body. I love and respect my husband far too much to act that way or treat him that way.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> What we have today is hardly comparable to some mosaic of a naked person.
> 
> Its a massive thing that wrecks peoples lives and marriages. When I married I promised to be faithful and that includes in mind as well as body. I love and respect my husband far too much to act that way or treat him that way.




That’s because porn to you means something completely different than to the average guy who just needs to get a quick relief with no deeper meaning to it whatsoever.
During the ‘mosaic porn’ period, it was much more common to have sex slaves and prostitutes. Porn has made (paradoxically) the whole male problem much more civilised and brought it under control.
I don’t want to sing praises too much because I don’t think it’s an ideal solution (an ideal solution would be sex with your wife on demand and your wife not resenting you for being sexually needy).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> That’s because porn to you means something completely different than to the average guy who just needs to get a quick relief with no deeper meaning to it whatsoever.
> During the ‘mosaic porn’ period, it was much more common to have sex slaves and prostitutes. Porn has made (paradoxically) the whole male problem much more civilised and brought it under control.
> I don’t want to sing praises too much because I don’t think it’s an ideal solution (an ideal solution would be sex with your wife on demand and your wife not resenting you for being sexually needy).
> 
> ...


Of course many men today still have sex with sex slaves and prostitutes as well as watch porn.
If my husband never had sex with me again, I still wouldn't look at porn. I had 6 years as single mum, no porn, you speak as if you cant help yourself. 
We don't die if we cant have sex for a time and we don't die without porn.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Of course many men today still have sex with sex slaves and prostitutes as well as watch porn.
> If my husband never had sex with me again, I still wouldn't look at porn. I had 6 years as single mum, no porn, you speak as if you cant help yourself.
> We don't die if we cant have sex for a time and we don't die without porn.


Sorry, but you are not a guy with balls! (I think?)
My point is that the sex slave thing is much more of an oddity these days, sex violence is curbed, rape rates are down in correlation with increased porn usage.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...evidence-mounts-more-porn-less-sexual-assault

And my main point: *it is not like cheating.* I don't want _anything_ to do with the people that are on the screen. I used to watch because I have no imagination and too tired in the evening to imagine anything. 
It's relaxing to masturbate and fall asleep sometimes. It reduces anxiety.
And anyway, to have a 'faithful' mind means one is not allowed to masturbate or think about anything else but your wife. And actually I did always prefer watching my wife's naked photos to porn and I even videoed us and took the files with me when on longer business trips, while she and her scent was still fresh on my mind...

It sounds as though you think that every time I see a naked woman on the screen, I have to write her love letters afterwards to proclaim my eternal love for her. It really is nothing like you portray it to be for an average guy.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> And my main point: *it is not like cheating.*


To you. It might well be like cheating to @Diana7. I don't think this is an area where there are objective rules and definitions. I believe every person gets to decide for themselves what is and what is not cheating.

I am guessing that you do not see masturbation as "cheating" either. Diana might. She might view her spouse as having an obligation to bring all his sexual needs and urges to her, and not indulge in any sexual behavior that does not involve her being physically present.

You would not agree with that rule. You wouldn't stay married to someone who felt that way. But that doesn't mean that porn or masturbation does not constitute "cheating" to that person. You feel it shouldn't. You might even feel they would be better off if they didn't feel that way. But that doesn't mean they don't actually feel that way.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its OK to leave a marriage for any reason you wish. Porn use is a completely valid reason. Just be aware that a lot of men watch porn so it eliminates them as possible partners.

Something many people forget is that "threatening" to leave is not always a threat. Sometimes it makes life better for both people. 



Diana7 said:


> The women I know who ended their marriage over porn use were accepting of their husbands, but for many of us its a form of cheating and completely unacceptable. We all have things that for us are a no no in marriage, for them, me and others one of those things is porn use, especially when the man refuses to stop despite knowing how unhappy its making their wives and how badly its affecting their marriage.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If your husband said that he would leave you unless you stopped ever masturbating, would you view that as reasonable? Would that change if he turned you down for sex 90% of the time?

To me, porn is just a type of sex toy. In the same way that some women use vibrators to get off, some men use porn. In most cases, both would prefer their partners if available. 



Diana7 said:


> I disagree. You clearly have no understanding of what it does to many women when their husband's do this. Its not a choice between porn or having an affair, its a choice between porn or no porn.
> I would never marry a man who was a porn user. Billions of men managed without on line porn until recently. 40-50 years ago it was only magazines, before that practically nothing.
> BTW I don't know any women who read erotic books. Some do yes, but its not the norm. Also a book is nothing like seeing actually people. Not at all.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> To you. It might well be like cheating to @Diana7. I don't think this is an area where there are objective rules and definitions. I believe every person gets to decide for themselves what is and what is not cheating.


True enough. Now if only they could end their holy crusade to make us all see the error of our ways whilst declaring our marriages pointless.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Sorry, but you are not a guy with balls! (I think?)
> My point is that the sex slave thing is much more of an oddity these days, sex violence is curbed, rape rates are down in correlation with increased porn usage.
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...evidence-mounts-more-porn-less-sexual-assault
> ...


Actually sex attacks are up among children and teens who use porn. Most sex attackers have a long history of porn use, most child abusers as well. I was reading about that the other day. Men use prostitutes just as much, sex slaves are still a thing in many counties, and yes think of your wife when you masturbate. Great idea. 

I realise that you don't see it as cheating, but many do. Its not just what we do with our bodies that makes it cheating, but what we do with our minds and thoughts as well. That's why EA's can be just as painful as PA's.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> To you. It might well be like cheating to @Diana7. I don't think this is an area where there are objective rules and definitions. I believe every person gets to decide for themselves what is and what is not cheating.
> 
> I am guessing that you do not see masturbation as "cheating" either. Diana might. She might view her spouse as having an obligation to bring all his sexual needs and urges to her, and not indulge in any sexual behavior that does not involve her being physically present.
> 
> You would not agree with that rule. You wouldn't stay married to someone who felt that way. But that doesn't mean that porn or masturbation does not constitute "cheating" to that person. You feel it shouldn't. You might even feel they would be better off if they didn't feel that way. But that doesn't mean they don't actually feel that way.


Funny. If you tell me it's summer outside but it's actually winter, am I supposed to just accept it is a fact?
Close to 100% of men watch porn. So they are all cheating?
Actually, forget about it: all men watch porn.

All men watch porn, scientists find - Telegraph


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Close to 100% of men watch porn. So they are all cheating?


No, only the ones married to wives who have a zero tolerance policy for porn are cheating.

I doubt most men would want to be married to such a woman. But there are men for every kind of woman. How do I know? Because no matter what adjective you use to describe a woman, if you type that word into pornhub you will find that someone else has already filmed that type of woman and some guy has already clicked on the video. :surprise: :wink2: > So I am confident that there are men for porn-intolerant women.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> No, only the ones married to wives who have a zero tolerance policy for porn are cheating.
> 
> I doubt most men would want to be married to such a woman. But there are men for every kind of woman. How do I know? Because no matter what adjective you use to describe a woman, if you type that word into pornhub you will find that someone else has already filmed that type of woman and some guy has already clicked on the video. :surprise: :wink2: > So I am confident that there are men for porn-intolerant women.


There are many men who are just as aware as the wives of how damaging porn is. Who also stay away from it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> There are many men who are just as aware as the wives of how damaging porn is. Who also stay away from it.


Why did it not damage me, if it is so damaging?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Funny. If you tell me it's summer outside but it's actually winter, am I supposed to just accept it is a fact?
> Close to 100% of men watch porn. So they are all cheating?
> Actually, forget about it: all men watch porn.
> 
> All men watch porn, scientists find - Telegraph


That was one university in Canada doing one study and were apparently looking for men in their 20's who didn't look at porn. It didn't say that 100% of men look at it because that is plainly nonsense. I have many friends whose husbands don't use porn. Neither of the men I have been married to looked at it. I appreciate that men who use it like to think that, but its just not true. 
There are many men out there who are well aware of the dangers and who want to be faithful to their wives and keep their minds clear of this stuff. They want to keep the intimacy between the two of them and not include anyone else. They go against the flow of what is happening in society, and I admire them so much for their stand.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Why did it not damage me, if it is so damaging?


Its not the sort of damage that you can see.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> That was one university in Canada doing one study and were apparently looking for men in their 20's who didn't look at porn. It didn't say that 100% of men look at it because that is plainly nonsense. I have many friends whose husbands don't use porn. Neither of the men I have been married to looked at it. I appreciate that men who use it like to think that, but its just not true.
> There are many men out there who are well aware of the dangers and who want to be faithful to their wives and keep their minds clear of this stuff. They want to keep the intimacy between the two of them and not include anyone else. They go against the flow of what is happening in society, and I admire them so much for their stand.


Perhaps one of those national heroes, who stroke against the flow, took a stand and never watched a porn video, could come forward and say something? Anyone please?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Its not the sort of damage that you can see.


Who can then? My wife is happy I left her alone when she had babies on her mind and dealt with my sexual neediness myself; my mistress is sad that i never took her up on her offers for her services (but she is much happier now that she found someone who doesn't abuse her as a sexual outlet), my kids are grateful we still have a family, my left hand is marginally stronger etc.
Where is the damage supposed to be seen?

Can one smell the damage?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> my left hand is marginally stronger etc.
> Where is the damage supposed to be seen?
> 
> Can one smell the damage?


Left hand? F'ng pervert. Does your right hand know about your cheating?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> > Why did it not damage me, if it is so damaging?
> ...


In other words it's make believe nonsense.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Left hand? F'ng pervert. Does your right hand know about your cheating?




My right hand posted on CWI for advice, performed a 180 and stuck a thumb up the backside, as an attempted revenge affair 
We reconciled. Using both hands now.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

All jokes aside: the only reason I argue is because it pains me to see women getting hurt by something completely unnecessary to get hurt by. I hope this stigma will change one day.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Perhaps one of those national heroes, who stroke against the flow, took a stand and never watched a porn video, could come forward and say something? Anyone please?


I'll ask my husband if he will write something later. He has never watched a porn film and he wont even watch a normal film/programme if it has a sex scene in it. As he says, they are not mine to look at. They are someone else's wife, future wife, partner, daughter, granddaughter, sister, niece, mother. Amazing how many men who watch porn would hate it if their own 18 year old daughter was looked at in that way. 

You may think he is rare, but in Christian circles he isn't at all. I am not saying that all Christians stay away from porn, but even if half don't watch it that's many many millions of men. We are told by Jesus that its adultery of the heart, and that what we see and hear goes in and does affect us and those around us.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I'll ask my husband if he will write something later. He has never watched a porn film and he wont even watch a normal film/programme if it has a sex scene in it. As he says, they are not mine to look at. They are someone else's wife, future wife, partner, daughter, granddaughter, sister, niece, mother. Amazing how many men who watch porn would hate it if their own 18 year old daughter was looked at in that way.
> 
> You may think he is rare, but in Christian circles he isn't at all. I am not saying that all Christians stay away from porn, but even if half don't watch it that's many many millions of men. We are told by Jesus that its adultery of the heart, and that what we see and hear goes in and does affect us and those around us.


You leave out form the equation that you always provide regular sex to your husband (whether you want it or not). Not all wives are prepared or happy to do this. Porn can be a compromise in such circumstances to fill a need without pestering the spouse and make her resent you for constantly ask them for sex. Many wives don't view it as cheating and it has absolutely no negative effects on the marriage. I think the problem with this discussion as that you are not willing to acknowledge this. I have acknowledged that in some instances, porn can be harmful when it becomes addictive and takes over the couple's sex life. This is not the case in the majority of instances.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> You leave out form the equation that you always provide regular sex to your husband (whether you want it or not). Not all wives are prepared or happy to do this. Porn can be a compromise in such circumstances to fill a need without pestering the spouse and make her resent you for constantly ask them for sex. Many wives don't view it as cheating and it has absolutely no negative effects on the marriage. I think the problem with this discussion as that you are not willing to acknowledge this. I have acknowledged that in some instances, porn can be harmful when it becomes addictive and takes over the couple's sex life. This is not the case in the majority of instances.


As I said before, he didn't have sex till he married age 25. He then had a long 9 month period when his ex was ill when they didn't have sex, and she was a woman who did control and limit sex. He was often rejected. He then had a one year separation with no sex, then he had the time between his marriage ending and us getting married. So he has had many long periods with no sex. 

I think its pretty common for people to get addicted to porn, and also for them to need to see more and more hard core porn to get the same effects.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> As I said before, he didn't have sex till he married age 25. He then had a long 9 month period when his ex was ill when they didn't have sex, and she was a woman who did control and limit sex. He was often rejected. He then had a one year separation with no sex, then he had the time between his marriage ending and us getting married. So he has had many long periods with no sex.
> 
> 
> 
> I think its pretty common for people to get addicted to porn, and also for them to need to see more and more hard core porn to get the same effects.




It’s true porn can get incredibly boring and repetitive. But it has never had any effect reducing my desire for wife no matter how much I watched or how hard core it was.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> It’s true porn can get incredibly boring and repetitive. But it has never had any effect reducing my desire for wife no matter how much I watched or how hard core it was.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It sadly does for many men. Some even get to the point where they can no longer get an erection in a normal healthy relationship.
Another reason I hate porn is because of the skewed picture it gives men of women and sex and love and marriage and faithfulness and commitment. For young men, especially those who are still teenagers, its even worse. They grow up with such a distorted idea of sex. Sex attacks among the young are rising.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> It sadly does for many men. Some even get to the point where they can no longer get an erection in a normal healthy relationship.
> Another reason I hate porn is because of the skewed picture it gives men of women and sex and love and marriage and faithfulness and commitment. For young men, especially those who are still teenagers, its even worse. They grow up with such a distorted idea of sex. Sex attacks among the young are rising.


In historical periods before porn during the rule of the Romans it was considered every honorable man's civic duty to visit the local brothels. Perhaps to help enforce the dominance of the upper class over the lower class and slaves. Sometimes there would be a footprint carved into a stone sidewalk to let teenage men know that their foot must be "at least this big" in order to gain entry to a brothel:










Historically speaking it was a prostitute during ancient times that invented the first timepiece for accurately measuring increments of time. It was a brass bowl with a small hole drilled in the bottom. Upon a Roman warrior entering her bedroom she would place this bowl into a large vase of water. It would take an exact measurement of time for the bowl to flood, sink to the bottom of the vase and make an audible chime. For this reason historians have a very accurate measurement of time by modern standards of how long it took the average soldier to do the deed. I'll spare you that detail as that information would be of no interest in this forum...

Gone are those days....


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

The definition of porn includes the written word. Any romance novel which has sex in it it technically considered porn.

Are all the women who read this stuff cheating?

Romance novels 1 billion in sales.

Men don't have the only problem with porn.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> In historical periods before porn during the rule of the Romans it was considered every honorable man's civic duty to visit the local brothels. Perhaps to help enforce the dominance of the upper class over the lower class and slaves. Sometimes there would be a footprint carved into a stone sidewalk to let teenage men know that their foot must be "at least this big" in order to gain entry to a brothel:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fascinating. Re invention of time: it’s kind of ironic since the more common complaint is generally that the men are too quick...Did they have a different clock when it came to sex within a marriage I wonder?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

The Savage Love cast condensed answer to this question from last week. First call after the monolog.

https://www.savagelovecast.com/episodes/583#.Wku3flCIbqA


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## Saibasu (Nov 3, 2016)

Good Guy said:


> There have been several threads on here about what it seems to be mainly wives wanting divorces because their husbands have been watching porn.
> 
> Personally, my wife doesn't have a problem with me watching porn, or me her, and I do it from time to time, if our sex life is really frequent I basically don't use it at all but have had dry spells in the past where I would have used it 3 or 4 times a week. She has told me she's looked at it a few times but it didn't do anything for her. She's more into erotic books.
> 
> ...


It being impersonal has nothing to do with it for me, under that logic, I could have sex with any guy I wanted as long as it was impersonal and I didn't care about him. For me it's simple, don't bring others into the sexuality of our marriage. Whether that be in the flesh, or not.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Saibasu said:


> It being impersonal has nothing to do with it for me, under that logic, I could have sex with any guy I wanted as long as it was impersonal and I didn't care about him. For me it's simple, don't bring others into the sexuality of our marriage. Whether that be in the flesh, or not.


That's how I see it. Our sex life is for us alone, no one else has any part in it whether in person or on line or in magazines. We both feel the same about porn, neither of us would want the other looking at it, and neither of us looks at it either.


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## growing_weary (Jul 23, 2017)

I didn't/don't mind porn at all as long as it's not illegal stuff that's morally horrible. Cam girls was pushing it. Chatting with real people online is past the point of my comfort level even though he jumped right over that line unbeknownst to me. Lying/hiding/shame is the part that would make something meh for me on the "good" side of my comfort zone.


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## JayDee7 (Sep 12, 2017)

Early in our relationship the topic of porn came up. She had watched online and it didn’t do anything for her. She said she didn’t want for me to watch any at all, and even gets uncomfortable during a sex scene in a movie, she will turn and ask for me to turn my eyes away. I told her what my drive is, and she has made every effort to keep me happy and she has done a great job. More than 18 years of marriage and I get a release about 5 Times a week. She understands that I cannot go two days without a release and she makes it happen. 
For us it works. If she were not willing to take care of my needs as frequently as I need it then I likely would watch porn. Luckily she understands that if she doesn’t want for me to watch porn she needs to be very active with me.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I'll ask my husband if he will write something later. He has never watched a porn film and he wont even watch a normal film/programme if it has a sex scene in it. As he says, they are not mine to look at. They are someone else's wife, future wife, partner, daughter, granddaughter, sister, niece, mother. Amazing how many men who watch porn would hate it if their own 18 year old daughter was looked at in that way.


Oh my god it's Vice President Mike Pence. Mrs. Pence, what an honor to have you here at TAM!


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Notself said:


> Oh my god it's Vice President Mike Pence. Mrs. Pence, what an honor to have you here at TAM!


If you wonder why people who voted for Trump are angry that liberal elitists look down on them and their values and their way of life, just re-read your posts a few times.

And I say that as a liberal Democrat. Mike Pence is the Vice president and he has strongly held religious beliefs. You may not agree with his beliefs or the wisdom of adopting them. Thankfully, given the First Amendment to the Constitution, you don't have to. And he can't force you to, even though he is Vice President of the federal government. But when you mock people for their religious beliefs, they tend to resent you. In that situation, you shouldn't be surprised when they vote for someone who has very different views than yours.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> If you wonder why people who voted for Trump are angry that liberal elitists look down on them and their values and their way of life, just re-read your posts a few times.


I'm OK with that. I have absolutely nothing in common with these people, nor would I want to have anything in common with them.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> But when you mock people for their religious beliefs, *they tend to resent you*. In that situation, you shouldn't be surprised when they vote for someone who has very different views than yours.


I dont resent them at all. 

I simply accept that their 'open-minded, tolerance of others' rhetoric is nothing more than self-serving posturing.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> You may not agree with his beliefs or the wisdom of adopting them. Thankfully, given the First Amendment to the Constitution, you don't have to. And he can't force you to, even though he is Vice President of the federal government.


Thinking on this further, one of the differences between, say, Mike Pence and me is that Vice President Pence would be more than happy to legislate his own beliefs into law. In fact, he succeeded in doing so as Governor of Indiana (the so-called "Religious Freedom Restoration" law) since Indiana is redder than red.

Honestly, I'd be happy to leave the fundies alone if they were willing to leave me alone. Alas, they are not. And the end result of all of this is a complete change of government every eight years and complete gridlock in Washington. I'm mostly OK with this as long as the "other side" doesn't win out like they did last November. Luckily, so far they have been too incompetent to take full advantage but they have made various unpleasant changes to many laws anyway.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Notself said:


> Honestly, I'd be happy to leave the fundies alone if they were willing to leave me alone.


Let us test this. Are you willing to allow abortion and gay marriage be decided at the state level? Or do you want those to be available nationwide? If you want them to available nationwide, then you are NOT "leaving them alone". You may not see it that way. You may think that as long as you do not force them to have an abortion or to enter into a gay marriage, that you are not impacting them at all.

But they see abortion as murder. You are asking them to ignore an enormous number of murders taking place within their state of residence. To them, you are asking them to be complicit in those murders. They see their values as being under attack from liberals who want to impose a secular lack of morality on believers. I know you do not see it that way, but they do.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> Let us test this. Are you willing to allow abortion and gay marriage be decided at the state level? Or do you want those to be available nationwide?


Of course I would prefer abortion to be safe, legal, and rare, but that issue is so shopworn and tiresome that I'm ultimately fine with this being decided on a statewide level. However, I am not willing to compromise on gay marriage. See? Give a little, get a little. :|

The issue frankly isn't that Mike Pence hates gay marriage and wants to ban it (which of course he does). The issue is actually that he would prefer to *execute* all gays. I would say that many if not most fundamentalists would strongly agree. And while government-sanctioned discrimination is bad enough, I'm afraid government-sanctioned murder is far beyond the pale for me.

Point out to a fundamentalist that they are *against* baby murder and *for* adult murder, though, and prepare to be attacked with a Bible! They have some very _interesting_ ways of justifying these views, I'll give them that.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Let us test this. Are you willing to allow abortion and gay marriage be decided at the state level? Or do you want those to be available nationwide?


No more so than I am willing to let states decide the issue of slavery.

That is the very reason we have a Federal Constitution and a Supreme Court that decides to whom and for what it applies. And the Supreme Court has decided on both of those issues. 

Advocating for those issues at the state level has been decided by the S.C. to in fact be attempts in imposing a morality on others that is not supported by our government structure.

Furthermore, who is targeted by an anti abortion or anti gay marriage law? Clearly not the religious groups proposing the laws, as they would ostensibly seek neither. They are by definition an attempt by those practitioners to enforce their beliefs onto the general public.

"Leaving them alone" implies allowing them to tell their own members what to do, from their own pulpits. Which they are and will continue to be free to do.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@Cletus: two things to ponder. First, highly likely given the ages of some of the Justices that President Trump will be able to appoint a Justice who will overturn Roe v Wade. Do you want that person to say that abortion is a question for the states or that abortion is illegal nationally? What one Sup Court case gives, another can take away.

Second, one can be gracious and conciliatory in victory, or one can be snide and condescending. The post I commented on was clearly intended to be snide and obnoxious. Both toward the Vice President and toward the poster to whom the comment was aimed. One complaint that conservatives voice frequently is that they dislike when liberals are elitist and condescending. As a card carrying over-educated East coast liberal, I dislike when my compatriots live up to the worst stereotypes of our behavior.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> @Cletus: two things to ponder. First, highly likely given the ages of some of the Justices that President Trump will be able to appoint a Justice who will overturn Roe v Wade. Do you want that person to say that abortion is a question for the states or that abortion is illegal nationally? What one Sup Court case gives, another can take away.[/quote ]
> 
> What I want is irrelevant. They will decide and we will be compelled to follow.
> 
> ...


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Guys, if you want to debate politics, do it in the politics section.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Sorry, hijack off.


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## Tony Conrad (Oct 7, 2013)

mm I thought this thread was about porn. I don't do porn personally as I love my wife and porn to me would be mental adultery. We do enough in the bedroom to satisfy both of us even if it is a bit kinky sometimes. But faithfulness is paramount.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Let us test this. Are you willing to allow abortion and gay marriage be decided at the state level?
> Or do you want those to be available nationwide? If you want them to available nationwide, then you are NOT "leaving them alone". You may not see it that way. You may think that as long as you do not force them to have an abortion or to enter into a gay marriage, that you are not impacting them at all.
> 
> But they see abortion as murder. You are asking them to ignore an enormous number of murders taking place within their state of residence. To them, you are asking them to be complicit in those murders. They see their values as being under attack from liberals who want to impose a secular lack of morality on believers. I know you do not see it that way, but they do.


I would be more sympathetic to the murder argument if these weren't the same people striving to eliminate birth control education and availability at every turn as well as social safety net programs for kids:

"I do not believe that just because you're opposed to abortion that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is."

- Sister Joan Chittister

How one can claim to be pro-life and support capital punishment (another commonality) is senseless..... OH we only care about INNOCENT life. What a load of crap. Either murder is murder or not.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> I would be more sympathetic to the murder argument if these weren't the same people striving to eliminate birth control education and availability at every turn as well as social safety net programs for kids:
> 
> "I do not believe that just because you're opposed to abortion that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed. And why would I think that you don't? Because you don't want any tax money to go there. That's not pro-life. That's pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is."
> 
> ...


But even the law makes an exception for "justifiable homicide."

Personally, I am not pro capital punishment, but I can clearly see the distinction and it is both logical and relevant.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I'm pro-life, pro-child, and against capital punishment. Last but not least, against masturbation and porn. My penis hasn't shriveled up and died from underuse.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Not too related to porn use but not for nuthin';

Re capital punishment?

Ask most anyone, if person in a criminal act shot someone in their family or brutally raped and killed a wife or daughter, or any semblance of these acts happened first hand to people they're close to....

Those persons would want said murderer/rapists put to death, and many would do all possible to make that death sentence happen.

This common example is common because it's accurate. 

And we can put ourselves in others shoes at times.

When another person tells their story of how a person raped then killed their child in front of them as said criminal was robbing them in a home invasion we can agree that criminal needs to be put down.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Slight thread jack here but just wondering how porn using men would feel about their wives masturbating to hunky guys on DVD or in magazines etc. Then hiding the materials, etc. Would it bother them? If it bothers them then it's somewhat hypocritical.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

In my case, it doesn't bother me at all. I'm actually more bothered (but not much) but the sort of fantasy novels she reads - which tend to include male romantic interests who a wildly unrealistic. (even the ones who aren't also vampires or shadow hunters or something). 

I really don't have any problem knowing that there are more muscular, more attractive, better endowed guys - that's obvious at a glance. Its the james-bond type image that is more troubling - the handsome wealthy guy who is skilled at everything, extremely romantic, and is physically superior to all mortal men. 

I'm not really concerned about the latter, but I'm not at all concerned about images of hunky guys as masturbation aids. I wouldn't be happy if my wife were camming with actual people, but videos - no problem. 






aine said:


> Slight thread jack here but just wondering how porn using men would feel about their wives masturbating to hunky guys on DVD or in magazines etc. Then hiding the materials, etc. Would it bother them? If it bothers them then it's somewhat hypocritical.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

aine said:


> Slight thread jack here but just wondering how porn using men would feel about their wives masturbating to hunky guys on DVD or in magazines etc. Then hiding the materials, etc. Would it bother them? If it bothers them then it's somewhat hypocritical.


Well, when I watch porn (with or without my wife), I'm not watching "beautiful women", I'm watching people having sex (and it helps if they're not unattractive). My wife watches porn for the same reason. If I watched and masturbated to beautiful nude women (not having sex), that might be different. I wouldn't be happy about her doing the reverse.

If she said things about the men that she liked that were not also plausibly true of me, I'd have a problem with that. But, then I would never say something like that to her (when noticing attractive things of members of the opposite sex, we always say "that's the *second* best X I've ever seen")


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

aine said:


> Slight thread jack here but just wondering how porn using men would feel about their wives masturbating to hunky guys on DVD or in magazines etc. Then hiding the materials, etc. Would it bother them? If it bothers them then it's somewhat hypocritical.


Well, that would seem to indicate an interest in sex. If that's what she needed to kick start herself and get her motor running, OK by me. Alas, she doesn't seem to work that way so the question is a red herring .


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

aine said:


> Slight thread jack here but just wondering how porn using men would feel about their wives masturbating to hunky guys on DVD or in magazines etc. Then hiding the materials, etc. Would it bother them? If it bothers them then it's somewhat hypocritical.


My wife isn't into porn, but it wouldn't bother me at all if she did use it. In fact, I assume that women appreciate attractive people and have fantasies about them just like men do. Although my wife denies it, I'd be surprised if she hasn't pleasured herself to at least the mental fantasy of someone else.

There's a second part to your question though. Hiding the materials would bother me only because I'm trying to get her more comfortable with sharing her fantasies with me. I'm not saying I need to be aware of everything, but that would be a great window into what turns her on.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

aine said:


> Slight thread jack here but just wondering how porn using men would feel about their wives masturbating to hunky guys on DVD or in magazines etc. Then hiding the materials, etc. Would it bother them? If it bothers them then it's somewhat hypocritical.


It wouldn't bother me at all. That said I am fine with my wife looking at pornography and masturbating as she pleases. Just as my wife is fine with me doing the same.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Back to a previous Aquaman / similar thread somewhere- it would only be strange if when she has alone time it was a cooking show.

Then I'd be concerned, but of course it may be Aquaman or more likely Tom Cruise, or me. Not worrisome.

And when thinking about me, I'm confident enough to agree with her when she tells me. 😊😊


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

If my wife masturbated to porn featuring hunky men, that would indicate she has some level of libido, an ability to feel pleasurable sensations from sexual stimulation, and perhaps some interest in heterosexual partner sex. All of those would be an improvement over the current situation.

Plus, at this stage, things are so bad in the sex department that if she felt disappointment from wanting to be with a hunky guy but being stuck with dumpy old me, well, I would spitefully take some pleasure from her frustration.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

If the man watched porn and didn't like his wife doing so, that would be very hypocritical. So really if you marry someone you need to both be ok with it or both not be ok with it(which is us)


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I don't buy it that most men would be fine with their wives viewing porn... It goes against our DNA... I call BS on that! Men can only say this in theory, because most women wouldn't do it.. these men have never, nor ever will- experience it.

The whole "sharing my wife" thing is more like a mental illness... Not something normal men do! Granted, there are lots of abnormal men on TAM.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> I don't buy it that most men would be fine with their wives viewing porn...


LOL. I have to disagree. I'm willing to bet there are a whole *lot* of guys out there that would love it if their wives liked porn and liked to watch it. A whole lot of them. 

What kind of guys would love it? For starters, the ones who aren't 'allowed' to view porn and have to hide it when they_ do_ view it (because we all know they still watch it even though the wife actually believes he's stopped). This would be the perfect scenario for these types of guys. The 'ban' on porn would obviously be lifted for him.

Then there are the guys who would like it because they would hope to be the 'recipient' of a wife or girlfriend whose all turned on because she just watched some porn (or maybe they watched it together). I honestly don't think over these last 18+ years of reading various message boards that I've *EVER* read a post from a man who complained that his wife wanted sex with him because she'd been turned on after watching some porn. Nope, I don't.

So I'm going to have to disagree. I'd be willing to bet there are likely lots of men who would have no problem whatsoever if their wives watched porn. :grin2:


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I have no idea what "most" men feel, but I am fine with my wife watching porn. Has nothing to do with "sharing" - which is not my thing at all (though as always consenting adults are welcome to do whatever they all enjoy)



CatholicDad said:


> I don't buy it that most men would be fine with their wives viewing porn... It goes against our DNA... I call BS on that! Men can only say this in theory, because most women wouldn't do it.. these men have never, nor ever will- experience it.
> 
> The whole "sharing my wife" thing is more like a mental illness... Not something normal men do! Granted, there are lots of abnormal men on TAM.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> I don't buy it that most men would be fine with their wives viewing porn... It goes against our DNA... I call BS on that! Men can only say this in theory, because most women wouldn't do it.. these men have never, nor ever will- experience it.
> 
> The whole "sharing my wife" thing is more like a mental illness... Not something normal men do! Granted, there are lots of abnormal men on TAM.


Staying away from the sharing wife bit, not my bag, but...

what's with the whole bunch of abby-normal men in TAM?

If we have to ask, does that mean "we is one" ?

What's the definition of said abnormal TAM men?

Yes, I'm picking at this just a little. Curious to know how that label is applied as was thrown out.

Kindly though, not in any sort of harsh inquiry. Curious. 

RR


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I always have to chuckle when I hear people criticizing those who DON'T view their spouse spanking it to strange women as a great thing. I mean, this isn't an issue of contention in my own marriage, but the irony of those who expect all spouses to tolerate porn being intolerant of anyone who doesn't agree is not lost on me.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> I don't buy it that most men would be fine with their wives viewing porn... It goes against our DNA... I call BS on that! Men can only say this in theory, because most women wouldn't do it.. these men have never, nor ever will- experience it.
> 
> The whole "sharing my wife" thing is more like a mental illness... Not something normal men do! Granted, there are lots of abnormal men on TAM.


There is nothing nature about having an ownership mentality around women. That is ALL nurture. The notion that people can't have egalitarian sex lives is absurd. Not sure what watching porn has to do with sharing your wife... but whatever.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> I don't buy it that most men would be fine with their wives viewing porn... It goes against our DNA... I call BS on that! Men can only say this in theory, because most women wouldn't do it.. these men have never, nor ever will- experience it.
> 
> The whole "sharing my wife" thing is more like a mental illness... Not something normal men do! Granted, there are lots of abnormal men on TAM.


One of the (many) things I loved about my wife was that she liked certain kinds of porn and was ok watching it with me as well as without me. 

There were times she would txt me at work saying "OMG, I found this totally hot video that we'll have to watch tonight!" Some times she'd even txt me little clips of it on my phone. 

How can a red-blooded, American man not love that???? 

That didn't go against my DNA. I loved that down to every last strand of my DNA and I miss it terribly now. 

I love a sexually empowered woman and love women that own and embrace their sexuality. 

I think a lot more women like porn that you or anyone gives credit. Women that like porn are the ones that have been given permission to like it in one fashion or another. 

Sexuality is beautiful thing. The human body is a beautiful thing. Yes, there is a lot of porn that perverts that beauty, but there is also a lot out there that embraces it and it's a beautiful thing to behold. 

I could no more judge a woman for liking porn than I could judge a women liking a gourmet meal, a chocolate truffle, a fine wine or great work of art. 

A woman liking porn may freak you out and trigger your deepest fears and insecurities, but I like it. I have experienced it, I lived it, and I liked it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> One of the (many) things I loved about my wife was that she liked certain kinds of porn and was ok watching it with me as well as without me.
> 
> There were times she would txt me at work saying "OMG, I found this totally hot video that we'll have to watch tonight!" Some times she'd even txt me little clips of it on my phone.
> 
> ...


You said 'I love a sexually empowered woman and love women that own and embrace their sexuality. ' Surely you realise that no one needs to watch porn to be that way? In fact I feel I AM that way because I DON'T watch porn. You don't need porn to have a good sex life. 

You also said, 'what red blooded American man would not want that'. I have a red blooded Australian man who definitely would not want that, nor does he watch porn.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> LOL. I have to disagree. I'm willing to bet there are a whole *lot* of guys out there that would love it if their wives liked porn and liked to watch it. A whole lot of them.
> 
> What kind of guys would love it? For starters, the ones who aren't 'allowed' to view porn and have to hide it when they_ do_ view it (because we all know they still watch it even though the wife actually believes he's stopped). This would be the perfect scenario for these types of guys. The 'ban' on porn would obviously be lifted for him.
> 
> ...


There are actually quite a few men who don't watch porn, and not because they aren't 'allowed' to, but because they think its wrong and damaging to the marriage.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> You said 'I love a sexually empowered woman and love women that own and embrace their sexuality. ' Surely you realise that no one needs to watch porn to be that way? In fact I feel I AM that way because I DON'T watch porn. You don't need porn to have a good sex life.
> 
> You also said, 'what red blooded American man would not want that'. I have a red blooded Australian man who definitely would not want that, nor does he watch porn.


Of course no one needs to watch porn to be sexually empowered. I hope I did not imply that someone must like porn to be sexual because that was not my intent. 

Some people like it, some people don't. 

Some people like to watch golf. I hate it and think it's nothing but a waste of time and bandwidth. 

There are probably some people that love to play golf, have zero interest in watching it. The same is likely true with sex and porn; there will be people who like sex but have no interest in porn. 

But like golf, the people who really like it, are probably more likely to watch it than people who don't like it.


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## Nickel Speed (Feb 4, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> There are actually quite a few men who don't watch porn, and not because they aren't 'allowed' to, but because they think its wrong and damaging to the marriage.


I don't know any of them.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Porn is just a substitute for sex. No sex for awhile then porn. Regular sex then no porn. Im not gonna be wound tighter than a spring just cuz my gf/wife isnt in the mood.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> There are actually quite a few men who don't watch porn, and not because they aren't 'allowed' to, but because they think its wrong and damaging to the marriage.


I wonder (for real) if there any who believe this for any other reason than god sez. If your god sez, rock it. But are there any other reasons that non-addictive use would be "bad for marriage". I doubt it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Porn is just a substitute for sex. No sex for awhile then porn. Regular sex then no porn. Im not gonna be wound tighter than a spring just cuz my gf/wife isnt in the mood.


Lots of us don't view it that way At All. It can be mental/visual lubricant, so to speak. Fantasy fuel...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Nickel Speed said:


> I don't know any of them.


#

I know many. Including my husband.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder (for real) if there any who believe this for any other reason than god sez. If your god sez, rock it. But are there any other reasons that non-addictive use would be "bad for marriage". I doubt it.


I always knew that porn was wrong, long before I was a Christian. I remember finding my dad porn mags in my early teens, and I never respected him the same again. 
Also the reason why God advises us to be faithful in mind and body is to strengthen the marriage and keep our minds on each other. Sex is for us, not anyone else, whether it be in person or on a screen.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Of course no one needs to watch porn to be sexually empowered. I hope I did not imply that someone must like porn to be sexual because that was not my intent.
> 
> Some people like it, some people don't.
> 
> ...


For me its not about liking it or not liking it, but knowing that porn use would be bad for me and our marriage. 
When we have sex I want to have my mind on my husband not on someone I saw on a porn film.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> *I always knew that porn was wrong*, long before I was a Christian. I remember finding my dad porn mags in my early teens, and I never respected him the same again.


Why is porn wrong?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Porn is just a substitute for sex. No sex for awhile then porn. Regular sex then no porn. Im not gonna be wound tighter than a spring just cuz my gf/wife isnt in the mood.


People masturbated without porn for many centuries.


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## Nickel Speed (Feb 4, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> People masturbated without porn for many centuries.


And then the caveman figured out how to draw it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Nickel Speed said:


> And then the caveman figured out how to draw it.


I think you are more intelligent than that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why is porn wrong?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I think you are more intelligent than that.


You have a limited exposure to matters of human sexuality, I think. Criticising HIS intelligence is not ok.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> You have a limited exposure to matters of human sexuality, I think. Criticising HIS intelligence is not ok.


Firstly no I dont, and secondly I was criticising his comment not him.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why is porn wrong?


Here are a few reasons just to start with. 

https://fightthenewdrug.org/3-reasons-why-watching-porn-is-harmful/


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Here are a few reasons just to start with.
> 
> https://fightthenewdrug.org/3-reasons-why-watching-porn-is-harmful/


Sigh. When you used the word wrong, I thought you meant morally wrong. For heaven's sake, sugar can be addictive. EVERYTHING that can be used/done/looked at should be done with good judgement.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> People masturbated without porn for many centuries.


And many painted nude women.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Sigh. When you used the word wrong, I thought you meant morally wrong. For heaven's sake, sugar can be addictive. EVERYTHING that can be used/done/looked at should be done with good judgement.


The list mentioned far more than addiction.

Yes I do think its morally wrong, as well as being something that I would never want in my marriage. Faithfulness is very important to us.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> And many painted nude women.


 I am sure a tiny minority did.
Most just masturbated to nothing.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Porn is just a substitute for sex. No sex for awhile then porn. Regular sex then no porn. Im not gonna be wound tighter than a spring just cuz my gf/wife isnt in the mood.
> ...


Great for them, however my imagination sucks. I need visual stimulation or it ain't happening.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> The list mentioned far more than addiction.
> 
> Yes I do think its morally wrong, as well as being something that I would never want in my marriage. Faithfulness is very important to us.


Why is it morally wrong? (You can want whatever you want to want in your marriage!)


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I am sure a tiny minority did.
> Most just masturbated to nothing.


What makes you "sure" of this? Do you have information/evidence?


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Lots of marally ambivalent people out there, even 68% of Christian men use porn.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Lots of marally ambivalent people out there, even 68% of Christian men use porn.


There is a real internal reaction, even if not conscious, when supposed morality conflicts with ones inner sense of right. I think there are injustices around the creation and production of porn. But its use is not immoral except insofar as a lot of people have weird religious hangups about all things sexual.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Lots of marally ambivalent people out there, even 68% of Christian men use porn.
> ...


I respect peoples views on porn that it is a grey area if married. However, if it approaches a sexless marriage, which I view as less than 2x/week personally, then I think they are just blithering hypocrites.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I respect peoples views on porn that *it is a grey area if married*. However, if it approaches a sexless marriage, which I view as less than 2x/week personally, then I think they are just blithering hypocrites.


I used to also (bolded). But I changed my tune when I thought about body sovereignty. I know for many, many people, porn isn't related to ones sex life all that much, if at all. And it is, in my opinion, very, very wrong to require the removal of something from someone that they have done their whole lives. For all that, since it is good for the male plumbing, it is even more important.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > I respect peoples views on porn that *it is a grey area if married*. However, if it approaches a sexless marriage, which I view as less than 2x/week personally, then I think they are just blithering hypocrites.
> ...


Thats fine, my XW could have cared less and once we entered the dead bedroom phase it was a staple in my life. My new lady keeps me satisfied so I hardly touch it, but she isn't so carefree about it. But I think it has more to do with her body insecurities than the actualy morality of it. Which is fine, as long as she keeps up her end of the bargain...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Thats fine, my XW could have cared less and once we entered the dead bedroom phase it was a staple in my life. My new lady keeps me satisfied so I hardly touch it, but she isn't so carefree about it. But I think it has more to do with her body insecurities than the actualy morality of it. Which is fine, as long as she keeps up her end of the bargain...


I think what I object to is the trend of women's either low self esteem or lack of understanding making this an issue for their husbands. Doesn't sound like a problem for you. Yay!


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Thats fine, my XW could have cared less and once we entered the dead bedroom phase it was a staple in my life. My new lady keeps me satisfied so I hardly touch it, but she isn't so carefree about it. But I think it has more to do with her body insecurities than the actualy morality of it. Which is fine, as long as she keeps up her end of the bargain...
> ...


I have to admit, I am slightly worried as I think she will eventually need a hysterectomy sometime in the future due to her endometriosis...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I have to admit, I am slightly worried as I think she will eventually need a hysterectomy sometime in the future due to her endometriosis...


Why would that be a problem? Healing time?


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > I have to admit, I am slightly worried as I think she will eventually need a hysterectomy sometime in the future due to her endometriosis...
> ...


No, a side effect of hysterectomy is a low sex drive. I don't think this is always the case though.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> No, a side effect of hysterectomy is a low sex drive. I don't think this is always the case though.


It is definitely not always the case. Ask me how I know.  I was given the option to take my eggs or not. Since they were not the problem, I went with not.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > No, a side effect of hysterectomy is a low sex drive. I don't think this is always the case though.
> ...


Haha. Well good to hear. Hopefully it works out (for both of us 😉 )


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

One thing I think we all need to keep in mind is that porn is not just one singular thing. Visual erotica/porn/XXX whatever you want to call it is as diverse as human sexuality itself. 

Some is silly. Some is completely unrealistic. Some is very realistic right down to the bunions and butt pimples and some is highly erotic and romantic.

Some things I find completely gross and disgusting and I am pretty darn sex-positive and open minded.

And if you were to hook up @Diana7 to a variety of physiological monitors and have her watch certain scenes, her body would register a high state of sexual arousal even though she would be saying it was wrong and bad. 

The anti porn crusaders would have everyone believe that every scene is an underage, human trafficking victim that is being exploited. 

Someone who's looked into that world at all will quickly realize that that may happen from time to time in the 3rd world, the vast majority of western porn is completely consensual and well compensated.

Porn is many things to many people. Some a source of vitriol and disgust. Some a source of arousal and titilation, some a source of art and beauty. 

One cannot say that it is all bad and neither can one say that it is all good for it is a million different things.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> .
> 
> Someone who's looked into that world at all will quickly realize that that may happen from time to time in the 3rd world, *the vast majority of western porn is completely consensual and well compensated.*


I would be interested in a cite to support that as well!


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> #
> 
> I know many. Including my husband.


I have just proof-read a thesis for a pHD which essentially touched on how certain CofE churches tried to appeal to men (because statistically it is 70% female) by offering talks on pornography. When a group of men were asked for feedback they basically said that the talks were simply female view on male sexuality in which none of the interviewees could relate. And so the pew population remains sparse and dwindling. 

I think there is a certain amount of head in sand regarding modern-day pornography and the relationshiop men have with it. I hurt myself if I just ignore it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Lots of marally ambivalent people out there, even 68% of Christian men use porn.


I have read reports that say far less than that. However even if its 50% who do(which I read recently) that still leaves countless millions or Christians who don't. Far far less than the general population.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

peacem said:


> I have just proof-read a thesis for a pHD which essentially touched on how certain CofE churches tried to appeal to men (because statistically it is 70% female) by offering talks on pornography. When a group of men were asked for feedback they basically said that the talks were simply female view on male sexuality in which none of the interviewees could relate. And so the pew population remains sparse and dwindling.
> 
> I think there is a certain amount of head in sand regarding modern-day pornography and the relationshiop men have with it. I hurt myself if I just ignore it.


I think the fact that there are more women than men in the C of E has nothing to do with groups talking about porn. 
The sort of churches we go to have pretty equal numbers of men and women and are generally thriving.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> One thing I think we all need to keep in mind is that porn is not just one singular thing. Visual erotica/porn/XXX whatever you want to call it is as diverse as human sexuality itself.
> 
> Some is silly. Some is completely unrealistic. Some is very realistic right down to the bunions and butt pimples and some is highly erotic and romantic.
> 
> ...


What effect it may or may not have on my body makes no difference to the fact that for me, and for us both, its not something we want in our marriage for all sorts of reasons.Its not what we want to full our minds with. 
We want our only focus to be on each other and not other people. We also don't want to be part of such an awful industry. All of those people are someone's daughter, son, wife, husband, sister, brother. As my husband says, they are not mine to look at. 

Even as a young teenager finding my dad magazines I know that it wasn't something I wanted to be involved in, ever.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I think the fact that there are more women than men in the C of E has nothing to do with groups talking about porn.
> The sort of churches we go to have pretty equal numbers of men and women and are generally thriving.


I will pass your conclusions onto the woman who has dedicated 3 years of her life into researching gender in the church. :surprise:


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Like I said, the pathetic, expected hypocritical one way tolerance when discussing this issue is laughable.

Does it make you feel important to mock others and their faith?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> I would be interested in a cite to support that as well!


Pornography a legal multi billion dollar a year industry in the US with studios and publishing and production companies of one form or another in many if not most states. 

I can't speak for what goes on in Paraguay, but in the US, it is quicker, easier, cheaper and much less risk to hire and pay self-absorbed 18 year olds that want a quick buck than to abduct, drug and traffic minors.

Yes, child porn and human trafficking does exist in the US and needs to be combatted on all fronts. 

But those that claim that most porn is nonconsensual and underage are the ones that carry the burden of proof.


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> Someone who's looked into that world at all will quickly realize that that may happen from time to time in the 3rd world, the vast majority of western porn is completely consensual and well compensated.


Based on her work helping to fight human trafficking, my wife would emphatically disagree with this statement, which is one of the reasons why she has no interest in porn.


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> Pornography a legal multi billion dollar a year industry in the US with studios and publishing and production companies of one form or another in many if not most states.
> 
> I can't speak for what goes on in Paraguay, but in the US, it is quicker, easier, cheaper and much less risk to hire and pay self-absorbed 18 year olds that want a quick buck than to abduct, drug and traffic minors.
> 
> ...


The "legal" porn industry in the U.S. is a drop in the bucket (both in terms of volume of production and viewing) compared to what is widely available on the internet. Neither you nor I can make any claim as to what percentage of that involves trafficking victims (minors or otherwise), but even one instance is too much.

And taking it one step further, I wouldn't claim that the legal porn industry is a victim-less business.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Satisfied Mind said:


> oldshirt said:
> 
> 
> > Someone who's looked into that world at all will quickly realize that that may happen from time to time in the 3rd world, the vast majority of western porn is completely consensual and well compensated.
> ...


And your wife is correct. Period.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

peacem said:


> I will pass your conclusions onto the woman who has dedicated 3 years of her life into researching gender in the church. :surprise:


That'd be very kind of you. However, let's keep religion where it belongs. In the religious section of TAM, please?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Satisfied Mind said:


> Based on her work helping to fight human trafficking, my wife would emphatically disagree with this statement, which is one of the reasons why she has no interest in porn.


IMO this is a GOOD reason.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

peacem said:


> I will pass your conclusions onto the woman who has dedicated 3 years of her life into researching gender in the church. :surprise:


Ok. Its what I have seen and experienced in many different churches and many denominations in 62 years.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Satisfied Mind said:


> The "legal" porn industry in the U.S. is a drop in the bucket (both in terms of volume of production and viewing) compared to what is widely available on the internet. Neither you nor I can make any claim as to what percentage of that involves trafficking victims (minors or otherwise), but even one instance is too much.
> 
> And taking it one step further, I wouldn't claim that the legal porn industry is a victim-less business.


Agreed, and its thought that many women in porn are abuse victims who have a very skewed idea of healthy sex and a very low opinion of themselves. Its just a horrible nasty industry.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> Pornography a legal multi billion dollar a year industry in the US with studios and publishing and production companies of one form or another in many if not most states.
> 
> I can't speak for what goes on in Paraguay, but in the US, it is quicker, easier, cheaper and much less risk to hire and pay self-absorbed 18 year olds that want a quick buck than to abduct, drug and traffic minors.
> 
> ...


No one here claimed that "most" pron is such. I simply contest your statement that "most" is not since I have no such evidence. I know that some very much is NOT consensual or using people of legal age. Sussing that out is, in my mind, an important component of moral porn use.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Ok. Its what I have seen and experienced in many different churches and many denominations in 62 years.


You are missing the point. Not about religiosity per se, but you tend to have a typically 'female' perspective on what mens relationship with porn and sexuality is. That was the conclusion as to why the male interviewees could not relate to the 'pornography talks' because it was a feminized perspective. 

So I think if we are to have an open and honest discussion we have to look at this topic from a gynocentric AND androcentic point of view. Otherwise wives like myself, will spend the rest of their lives hurting and resentful, pushing the person they love away. Compromise and understanding, letting go of stubborness and being open to another point of view - not for the benefit of a man, but for a woman who has to live in a modern world that is not all unicorns, rainbows and disney.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

peacem said:


> Diana7 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok. Its what I have seen and experienced in many different churches and many denominations in 62 years.
> ...


I'm proud of all those big words. They pair well with your condescension.

This is ridiculous. Please don't try to drag Jesus down with you into whatever universalist, psuedointellectual so called faith you claim to practice.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> I'm proud of all those big words. They pair well with your condescension.
> 
> This is ridiculous. Please don't try to drag Jesus down with you into whatever universalist, psuedointellectual so called faith you claim to practice.


what???? I thought we were debating? You make some assumptions about my faith. You are not the thought police nor the language police. I will write my opinions.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> I'm proud of all those big words. They pair well with your condescension.
> 
> This is ridiculous. Please don't try to drag Jesus down with you into whatever universalist, psuedointellectual so called faith you claim to practice.


What does that mean? I don't understand you and your good words, therefore you are trying to put Jesus down?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

peacem said:


> You are missing the point. Not about religiosity per se, but you tend to have a typically 'female' perspective on what mens relationship with porn and sexuality is. That was the conclusion as to why the male interviewees could not relate to the 'pornography talks' because it was a feminized perspective.
> 
> So I think if we are to have an open and honest discussion we have to look at this topic from a gynocentric AND androcentic point of view. Otherwise wives like myself, will spend the rest of their lives hurting and resentful, pushing the person they love away. Compromise and understanding, letting go of stubborness and being open to another point of view - not for the benefit of a man, but for a woman who has to live in a modern world that is not all unicorns, rainbows and disney.


Spot on.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Do you have references on how much porn is illegal in the US?

It seems strange with so much of it being produced nearly for free privately now - I don't see where the profit is in using trafficked actors. 

Trafficked women are still used in prostitution - but that is illegal so the business is already involved with a criminal element. 






Satisfied Mind said:


> Based on her work helping to fight human trafficking, my wife would emphatically disagree with this statement, which is one of the reasons why she has no interest in porn.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > I'm proud of all those big words. They pair well with your condescension.
> ...


Lol.....you mean the magic sky fairy you constantly imply only people of inferior intellect believe in?


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Do you have references on how much porn is illegal in the US?
> 
> It seems strange with so much of it being produced nearly for free privately now - I don't see where the profit is in using trafficked actors.
> 
> ...


Just because you don't see the profit doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Lol.....you mean the magic sky fairy you constantly imply only people of inferior intellect believe in?


So.... it is ok for you to opine about maritally related topics based on your belief about deity(ies), but others of us are not?


----------



## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

uhtred said:


> Do you have references on how much porn is illegal in the US?
> 
> It seems strange with so much of it being produced nearly for free privately now - I don't see where the profit is in using trafficked actors.
> 
> Trafficked women are still used in prostitution - but that is illegal so the business is already involved with a criminal element.


A lot of research is being done on this, and a lot more needs to be done, but there's already a fair amount of information out there on this. Here is just one example.

Just because porn is available to consumers on the internet for free does not mean it is not profitable. Those sites generate ad revenue just like other forms of online media, and there are other potential revenue sources, such as subscriptions.

Abuse of human trafficking victims may be the worst of it, but there are a lot of other terrible ways porn producers take advantage of victims, particularly women. Many women are "recruited" to engage in explicit activity under the influence of alcohol, drugs, or false promises. There's revenge porn, where videos of consensual sex are published online without the consent of one or more of the participants. Some explicit material posted online was obtained by hacking or other illegal means and without the owner's consent. I can't begin to imagine the shame that sort of invasion of privacy leads to.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Lol.....you mean the magic sky fairy you constantly imply only people of inferior intellect believe in?
> ...


It's fine for anyone to post anything within the rules. Free speech.

But just because someone wants to think Jesus is down with porno doesnt mean He is.

Actually I have way more respect for YOUR opinion about porn because you DON'T factor in God than I do some convoluted crap that somehow makes Jesus some enlightened porn advocate.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> It's fine for anyone to post anything within the rules. Free speech.
> 
> But just because someone wants to think Jesus is down with porno doesnt mean He is.
> 
> Actually I have way more respect for YOUR opinion about porn because you DON'T factor in God than I do some convoluted crap that somehow makes Jesus some enlightened porn advocate.


Oh. I did not know anyone said anything about Jesus being down with porn. Personally, I don't see why there is reason to think he isn't. But not my monkeys. Not my circus.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

It's clear that porn is philosophically and morally wrong on so many levels, but I don't think users can be persuaded. People tend to do what they want regardless of who gets hurt.... they believe "that's someone else's problem".

People get so into their delights... they lose the ability to reason. It's selfishness, really.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Why is that clear? Its not a major topic of religions, and I don't remember Jesus saying anything about it (and here I include the widely varied forms of sexual behavior that would have been common in ancient Rome)

The early Christian church and Jesus didn't seem to make a big issue of sexual behavior. 





CatholicDad said:


> It's clear that porn is philosophically and morally wrong on so many levels, "
> snip
> .


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"You have heard, 'thou shalt not commit adultery.' I say to you, whoever looks at another woman with lost has committed adultery with her in his heart."

Those are Jesus' words.

One has to work hard on.purpose to be stupid enough to believe Jesus is down with porn.

Don't be stupid.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Just because you don't see the profit doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


That's the thing. It is so hard to know. DH and I saw one one time where the woman looked spaced out as if high AF as well as in pain. We were both like, not only is this likely wildly immoral, it is REALLLLLLLY yucky. I am not particularly into porn. But DH has opted for amateur now for his plumbing needs.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> "You have heard, 'thou shalt not commit adultery.' I say to you, whoever looks at another woman with lost has committed adultery with her in his heart."
> 
> Those are Jesus' words.
> 
> ...


You know, most of the time you are a pretty cool person. Then sometimes you pull this BS.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Why is that clear? Its not a major topic of religions, and I don't remember Jesus saying anything about it (and here I include the widely varied forms of sexual behavior that would have been common in ancient Rome)
> 
> The early Christian church and Jesus didn't seem to make a big issue of sexual behavior.


I can't claim to remember a great deal about it. But my recollection is that it was not a big theme, more around response to questions from others. But from a philosophical argument, it is often cited as "obvious" when no decent reason can be given.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Philosophical argument. If a king gave you a Stradivarius, you would use it to make music and not as a children's toy or flyswatter. Our sexuality is a gift from God and so shouldn't be used for cheap amusement.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > "You have heard, 'thou shalt not commit adultery.' I say to you, whoever looks at another woman with lost has committed adultery with her in his heart."
> ...


Oh please. I'm NEVER cool. Ever.

I'm a musandrist who feels sympathy for those who don't deserve it it and I believe in spaghetti monsters. Also I voted for Gary Johnson.

I am literally Hitler, sans the orange skin lol


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Why is that clear? Its not a major topic of religions, and I don't remember Jesus saying anything about it (and here I include the widely varied forms of sexual behavior that would have been common in ancient Rome)
> 
> The early Christian church and Jesus didn't seem to make a big issue of sexual behavior.
> 
> ...


See Bible or Google Bible regarding lust, licentiousness, fornication, sexual immorality, lasciviousness, lust, sensuality, impurity, "desires of the flesh", and Jesus went further saying adultery can also be committed in the "heart" (not just body).


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Oh please. I'm NEVER cool. Ever.
> 
> I'm a musandrist who feels sympathy for those who don't deserve it it and I believe in spaghetti monsters. Also I voted for Gary Johnson.
> 
> I am literally Hitler, sans the orange skin lol


Musandrist. Hater of music?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> It's *clear *that porn is *philosophically *and *morally *wrong on so many levels, but I don't think users can be persuaded. People tend to do what they want regardless of who gets hurt.... they believe "that's someone else's problem".
> 
> People get so into their delights... they lose the ability to *reason*. It's selfishness, really.


You've spoken of the bible. What philosophical and reasonable arguments would you use to support its immorality for those of us who don't believe in god? You claim it is "clear". It does not seem that it is clear that it is immoral on several levels.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> uhtred said:
> 
> 
> > Why is that clear? Its not a major topic of religions, and I don't remember Jesus saying anything about it (and here I include the widely varied forms of sexual behavior that would have been common in ancient Rome)
> ...


Well you can commit adultery by walking down the street and noticing a woman scantily dressed. 

I remember reading about a priest who seen a prostitute in the streets on his way home and became aroused. He ignored her, got home and castrated himself for his unpure thoughts. Just thought I'd throw that out there in case you are ever walking down the street...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> See Bible or Google Bible regarding lust, licentiousness, fornication, sexual immorality, lasciviousness, lust, sensuality, impurity, "desires of the flesh", and Jesus went further saying adultery can also be committed in the "heart" (not just body).


Yes. If your eye causes you to sin, you must pluck it out. 

We all know you have lusted at some point. And yet you still have both of your eyes.

Very typical of hyperjudgmental people such as yourself that you wish to take some scripture literally and other not, as it suits you and your narrow narrative.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Oh please. I'm NEVER cool. Ever.
> ...


Okay, I spit my tea. MISandrist. Just ask 2 or 3 whiny man who cant handle a woman disagreeing with them.

Which is funny, cause the ultra feminists probably think I'm a mysiginist. It's actually funny.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> CatholicDad said:
> 
> 
> > See Bible or Google Bible regarding lust, licentiousness, fornication, sexual immorality, lasciviousness, lust, sensuality, impurity, "desires of the flesh", and Jesus went further saying adultery can also be committed in the "heart" (not just body).
> ...


I'll be the first to say certain legalistic posters are jackasses and nothing like Jesus....

But let's just say there's a reason atheists shouldn't use scripture in their arguments.

It's the same reason I dont argue in Mandarin 😉


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> I'll be the first to say certain legalistic posters are jackasses and nothing like Jesus....
> 
> But let's just say there's a reason atheists shouldn't use scripture in their arguments.
> 
> It's the same reason I dont argue in Mandarin 😉


1. I am not athiest
2. I grew up Christian, rooted in scriptures. My memory may be less than perfect but the point still stands that many like to claim literal interpretation in some places and not in others, usually where it suits them and their personal agenda rather than a genuine commitment of faith.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Okay, I spit my tea. MISandrist. Just ask 2 or 3 whiny man who cant handle a woman disagreeing with them.
> 
> Which is funny, cause the ultra feminists probably think I'm a mysiginist. It's actually funny.


I know. I was joking. Just. You hate everyone.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

We're all sinners but purposeful, premeditated sins deserve greater punishment than the accidental "glance" mentioned.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> CatholicDad said:
> 
> 
> > See Bible or Google Bible regarding lust, licentiousness, fornication, sexual immorality, lasciviousness, lust, sensuality, impurity, "desires of the flesh", and Jesus went further saying adultery can also be committed in the "heart" (not just body).
> ...


I guess your point is that porn and masturbating is therefore ALLOWED, since no one is plucking out their eyes?

Enjoy your porn then.. along with whatever drugs you're obviously on.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> I guess your point is that porn and masturbating is therefore ALLOWED, since no one is plucking out their eyes?
> 
> Enjoy your porn then.. along with whatever drugs you're obviously on.


That's not my point. My point is that you are selective in your interpretation. I'm not going to argue for or against either a literal or relative interpretation, but I will call you out for being inconsistent in your approach. 

And as I have told you before, I'm not a porn consumer. As for drugs, if you take wine with mass/communion/sacraments, you are doing more drugs than I am.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Sometimes it's the best approach to remember "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, I spit my tea. MISandrist. Just ask 2 or 3 whiny man who cant handle a woman disagreeing with them.
> ...


I know!
See, you people who have never met me get it!!
It's amazing I have managed to snow job so many flesh and blood family members and friends all these decades.

Then again, they ARE in the south and a lot of them go to church and stuff....


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> You hate everyone.


I've been waiting for the right opportunity.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

But surely the strad should be played, not just locked away safely and only used for concerts. Would you object to someone playing their violin just to make music that they personally enjoyed , even without an audience?




CatholicDad said:


> Philosophical argument. If a king gave you a Stradivarius, you would use it to make music and not as a children's toy or flyswatter. Our sexuality is a gift from God and so shouldn't be used for cheap amusement.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> CatholicDad said:
> 
> 
> > I guess your point is that porn and masturbating is therefore ALLOWED, since no one is plucking out their eyes?
> ...


My point was that no one can rightly claim that porn and masturbation is permitted in the Bible regardless of interpretation. You have to pretty ignorant or high to believe that.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> > CatholicDad said:
> ...


CD, what would you do if your wife didn't have any interest in touching you, let alone have sex with you? Just curious. I imagine divorce would be tricky as a Catholic- so whats your advice? Suck it up? Most people that slam porn/masturbation seem to not realize the flip side.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

peacem said:


> You are missing the point. Not about religiosity per se, but you tend to have a typically 'female' perspective on what mens relationship with porn and sexuality is. That was the conclusion as to why the male interviewees could not relate to the 'pornography talks' because it was a feminized perspective.
> 
> So I think if we are to have an open and honest discussion we have to look at this topic from a gynocentric AND androcentic point of view. Otherwise wives like myself, will spend the rest of their lives hurting and resentful, pushing the person they love away. Compromise and understanding, letting go of stubborness and being open to another point of view - not for the benefit of a man, but for a woman who has to live in a modern world that is not all unicorns, rainbows and disney.


I have had 2 marriages for a combined total of 38 years, I have an adult son and 2 adult step sons, I have 2 brothers so I do get men and their sexuality to some extent, so no I dont have only a female perspective of porn. 
There are many churches where they are lots of men, as many men as women, its up to us to find a church that suits us.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> My point was that no one can rightly claim that porn and masturbation is permitted in the Bible regardless of interpretation. You have to pretty ignorant or high to believe that.


I agree that porn use is forbidden in the Bible. Masturbation if done without porn, I don't agree.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

uhtred said:


> But surely the strad should be played, not just locked away safely and only used for concerts. Would you object to someone playing their violin just to make music that they personally enjoyed , even without an audience?


For us, sex between 2 people is for marriage only and between them only. So its like God made us to have and enjoy sex but put a fence around it. Porn comes outside that fence because it involves other people.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well you can commit adultery by walking down the street and noticing a woman scantily dressed.
> 
> I remember reading about a priest who seen a prostitute in the streets on his way home and became aroused. He ignored her, got home and castrated himself for his unpure thoughts. Just thought I'd throw that out there in case you are ever walking down the street...


Being tempted isn't a sin, it's what we do with that temptation that matters. So we cant help noticing a scantily dressed member of the opposite sex, but do we glance and then just look away and carry on and think about other things, or do we ogle and undress them with our eyes and maybe imagine all sort of senarios with them.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Well you can commit adultery by walking down the street and noticing a woman scantily dressed.
> ...


Diana, you are correct.

But the people poking this arent really interested in the truth. It's just baiting and mocking.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I agree that porn use is forbidden in the Bible. Masturbation if done without porn, I don't agree.


While I, personally, don't have a problem with porn when approached with care around its production, this makes far more sense to me than the condemnation of both.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Diana7 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree that porn use is forbidden in the Bible. Masturbation if done without porn, I don't agree.
> ...


I agree with Diana as well. The verse certain groups use to condemn masturbation actually has nothing to do with occasional masturbation. It's about a man who directly disobeyed God's command about an heir.

That's why appointing a man in a funny hat as a defacto messiah is a bad idea.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> See Bible or Google Bible regarding lust, licentiousness, fornication, sexual immorality, lasciviousness, lust, sensuality, impurity, "desires of the flesh", and Jesus went further saying adultery can also be committed in the "heart" (not just body).


Do you know what the term "lust" meant when the bible was transcribed? This is as tricky as understanding "covet" in the commandments. 

Since I'm not Christian, for me its just an academic question. I generally agree with a lot of what Jesus said, but have a difficult time supporting this, or the idea that its almost impossible for a wealthy man to enter heaven (camels and eyes of needles and all).

Still, I have to agree with you that the most reasonable interpretation of Jesus's words would be an admonition against lust, and that could well include porn - at least for married people. Since I don't think unmarried people can commit adultery, it might be OK for them .


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> > Diana7 said:
> ...


The Bible does't directly condemn masturbation but it indirectly condemns it because its sexual pleasure done without your spouse:

5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. . . 8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. – 1 Corinthians 7:5, 8-9

Lust and selfishness are sins which are usually involved in self-gratification with or without porn. I know Catholics condemn masturbation, some other denominations see it as a grey area typically since young people aren't going to be married so soon anymore.


----------



## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

QUOTE=UMP;17156785]Not if you watch granny porn :grin2:

I think women fail to realize that we husbands are not as motivated by our wives looks as they think we are. A sexy attitude and an open mind in regards to sex trumps looks every damn time.

My wife is 50 years old and she is sexier to me today than when we first got married. Truth.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin to it![/QUOTE]

Half of all women others fawn and drool over have an energy I don't like.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

red oak said:


> QUOTE=UMP;17156785]Not if you watch granny porn :grin2:
> 
> I think women fail to realize that we husbands are not as motivated by our wives looks as they think we are. A sexy attitude and an open mind in regards to sex trumps looks every damn time.
> 
> ...


Half of all women others fawn and drool over have an energy I don't like.[/QUOTE]

Spot on from start to finish.

Too many women assume the drive is to ogle other women, because it relieves them of the notion that what really needs to happen is they need to step up their game. Much easier to say it's something they can't control than to accept responsibility for what they can.

And just so we're clear that this is not just an irrational y chromosome bashing women, there's also no shortage of men who need to step up their game as well, especially in the romance department, which is why there are so many romance novels and chick flicks out there (as well as cheating wives), and too many men are equally loathe to look at their own contributions to the problem when it's just easier to blame the woman for being somehow of inferior character or needy or some other lame excuse.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Awwww......how mean of me to want someone to own their behavior.

Obviously I'm just too lazy to wear enough lipstick lololol


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> Awwww......how mean of me to want someone to own their behavior.
> 
> Obviously I'm just too lazy to wear enough lipstick lololol


Funny, I thought the previous post was all about people owning their own behavior... both parties. Nor was it offered as an excuse for turning to porn.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

uhtred said:


> But surely the strad should be played, not just locked away safely and only used for concerts. Would you object to someone playing their violin just to make music that they personally enjoyed , even without an audience?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Masturbation would be more like putting rosin on the bow.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Masturbation would be more like putting rosin on the bow.


Which is something you need to do from time to time even if you're not playing the instrument regularly. Bows need maintenance to keep them from drying out and becoming ineffective or useless. 

There's not much in this world that can be left untouched indefinitely without drying up, corroding, rotting, or decaying.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I lost track, what is this thread about again lol?


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> CatholicDad said:
> 
> 
> > Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> ...


I've suffered many dry spells. My wife has given birth many times, has had cancer, been sick... I endured. I gladly accepted quickies when offered. I've even relapsed and masturbated a few times. I've thrown myself into sports, run hundreds of miles, lifted thousands of pounds of weights, took bike rides, took kids hiking, sledding, to playgrounds, basically just tried like a maniac to exert myself so I didn't go nuts.

But at the same time, I continued to love her, woo her, and wait 😉

The dry spells teach you self control, and to appreciate the good times more.

Men can live without porn and without turning away from their wives. It's hard as hell. Sure, I feel sorry for men who married bad, sick, or even hateful women. That doesn't make porn right.

Also, my **** didn't shrivel up and fall off like some porn pushers will lead you to believe.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> I've suffered many dry spells. My wife has given birth many times, has had cancer, been sick... I endured. I gladly accepted quickies when offered. *I've even relapsed and masturbated a few times.* I've thrown myself into sports, run hundreds of miles, lifted thousands of pounds of weights, took bike rides, took kids hiking, sledding, to playgrounds, basically just tried like a maniac to exert myself so I didn't go nuts.
> 
> But at the same time, I continued to love her, woo her, and wait 😉
> 
> ...


So you did rosin your bow!

While we're at it, let's point out that you always knew your wife would come around. You've still never offered a solution for those who's wives won't. Those who've been waiting not for days, weeks, or even months, but rather years or even decades. Masturbation is a sin. Divorce is a sin. Are you willing to say out loud that the only alternative is an entire lifetime of blue balls and misery? It's a simple yes or no question. No equivocating.


----------



## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Do you know what the term "lust" meant when the bible was transcribed? This is as tricky as understanding "covet" in the commandments.
> 
> Since I'm not Christian, for me its just an academic question. I generally agree with a lot of what Jesus said, but have a difficult time supporting this, or the idea that its almost impossible for a wealthy man to enter heaven (camels and *eyes of needles *and all).
> 
> Still, I have to agree with you that the most reasonable interpretation of Jesus's words would be an admonition against lust, and that could well include porn - at least for married people. Since I don't think unmarried people can commit adultery, it might be OK for them .


Knowing the meanings of most words and euphemisms used during times it was written is reason I seldom get involved in scriptural discussions. 

Too much unraveling to do for others to understand where I am coming from.
Good example being the "eye of the needle," lust, agape, interest being capital sin etc.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I lost track, what is this thread about again lol?


Corrosion or violins.


----------



## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

On topic: there is nothing wrong with porn. Do I watch it? No. Most of it I find repulsive because of degradation aspect. Have we watched it? Yes. Been long time.
It doesn't bother either of us if the other were to watch it, more fun to watch it together. 
Is porn/masturbation wrong? Only if one views pleasure of eating candy a sin as such is also a lust of the flesh.

My ex had a problem with my reading adult mags, but she also had a problem with my reading regular western or sci-fi novels so...

Most of it seems to boil down to control and insecurity.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

red oak said:


> On topic: there is nothing wrong with porn. Do I watch it? No. Most of it I find repulsive because of degradation aspect. Have we watched it? Yes. Been long time.
> It doesn't bother either of us if the other were to watch it, more fun to watch it together.
> Is porn/masturbation wrong? Only if one views pleasure of eating candy a sin as such is also a lust of the flesh.
> 
> ...


So you would have an adult graphic novel version of Cowboys vs. Aliens!:grin2:


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

RMY, I'd prefer a lifetime of celibacy to the lie of porn and masturbation. Women and children are hurt by that industry, no doubt. I hold to the ideal that men should be above this sin and nasty habit regardless of how poor their marriage.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Personal said:


> Corrosion or violins.


The sanctity of sperm and God's fixation with it.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Sperm....the champagne of victory!


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

red oak said:


> On topic: there is nothing wrong with porn. Do I watch it? No. Most of it I find repulsive because of degradation aspect. Have we watched it? Yes. Been long time.
> It doesn't bother either of us if the other were to watch it, more fun to watch it together.
> Is porn/masturbation wrong? Only if one views pleasure of eating candy a sin as such is also a lust of the flesh.
> 
> ...


Actually, you have stated an opinion as fact. Porn is personal, just like other issues - drinking, premarital sex, etc. For some people, using pornography is wrong. For others it is not.

I don't really care one way or the other, but if we are not to shame people who use porn, we CERTAINLY don't need to shame people who do NOT use porn.

It may surprise some posters to realize that their world view isn't an absolute.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Absolutely right!
😉😉😉

Ok, I'm hanging my head a little for whipping this out so quickly.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Actually, you have stated an opinion as fact. Porn is personal, just like other issues - drinking, premarital sex, etc. For some people, using pornography is wrong. For others it is not.
> 
> I don't really care one way or the other, but if we are not to shame people who use porn, we CERTAINLY don't need to shame people who do NOT use porn.
> 
> It may surprise some posters to realize that their world view isn't an absolute.


I am not here to argue overmuch about what is right and wrong. Our perceptions of that are very different (our meaning pretty much any person anywhere from any other, not you and me). I think it is important to call out and highlight this response. The person to whom you were responding does not seem to be shaming anyone at all. Just voicing his opinion on the matter, as we all do on this board. You see a lot of religion shaming where none seems to exist, to me. 

As it relates to religion and porn, my perception is that christian (I don't know much about other religions) prudishness and general weirdness around human sexuality has done far more harm than porn. The biggest issue wrt porn, from my view, is young people for whom it is defacto sex ed in the absence of real/good sex ed.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not here to argue overmuch about what is right and wrong. Our perceptions of that are very different (our meaning pretty much any person anywhere from any other, not you and me). I think it is important to call out and highlight this response. The person to whom you were responding does not seem to be shaming anyone at all. Just voicing his opinion on the matter, as we all do on this board. You see a lot of religion shaming where none seems to exist, to me.
> 
> As it relates to religion and porn, my perception is that christian (I don't know much about other religions) prudishness and general weirdness around human sexuality has done far more harm than porn. The biggest issue wrt porn, from my view, is young people for whom it is defacto sex ed in the absence of real/good sex ed.


I may be the only person who does this, but sometimes when I reply to a post, I am using that post as a jumping off point, and my comments might be a bit more general and not related to that post and that post only. In other words, poster A's post might make me think of a general trend or something I have noticed from posters B and C that I had not yet commented on. So, rather than go and find the specific words used by B and C in who knows which page of what thread, I will begin my comment specifically addressing poster A and then morphing to a more general line of thought.

Like I said, perhaps no one else does that. Perhaps their quotation comments are narrowly specific to the exact quotation.

So to summarize: I do not think that red oak was specifically shaming. However, I have gotten the "saying porn is bad is stupid/anyone who says they don't use it is lying" message from a variety of posters here and there. People who openly state that they or their partners do not use it are frequently questioned, poked fun at, or it is implied that their partner is lying to them "because every man uses it." THAT is the shaming I was referring to. My point is that if we are going to defend pornography use as a personal freedom, then we should respect one's choice NOT to use it or NOT to like it as a personal freedom as well.

As far as religious shaming goes, I am probably programmed a bit to assume someone is being condescending when someone's pattern with regard to religion IS typically to be condescending.

I DO agree with you that the legalistic extremes of prudishness and shame perpetuated by various churches has done harm. I always wonder how these anti-sex folks reconcile the existence of Song of Solomon.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Actually, you have stated an opinion as fact. Porn is personal, just like other issues - drinking, premarital sex, etc. For some people, using pornography is wrong. For others it is not.
> 
> I don't really care one way or the other, but if we are not to shame people who use porn, we CERTAINLY don't need to shame people who do NOT use porn.
> 
> It may surprise some posters to realize that their world view isn't an absolute.


I agree a persons view on morality of porn is subjective. 

My reply was philosophically bent to make a point.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> > I DO agree with you that the legalistic extremes of prudishness and shame perpetuated by various churches has done harm. I always wonder how these anti-sex folks reconcile the existence of Song of Solomon.
> 
> 
> To sum up the Bible on sex, get married and bang. Those who think there is shame surrounding sexuality (in a married context) haven’t read the Bible or willfully distort it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> I may be the only person who does this, but sometimes when I reply to a post, I am using that post as a jumping off point, and my comments might be a bit more general and not related to that post and that post only. In other words, poster A's post might make me think of a general trend or something I have noticed from posters B and C that I had not yet commented on. So, rather than go and find the specific words used by B and C in who knows which page of what thread, I will begin my comment specifically addressing poster A and then morphing to a more general line of thought.
> 
> Like I said, perhaps no one else does that. Perhaps their quotation comments are narrowly specific to the exact quotation.
> 
> So to summarize: I do not think that red oak was specifically shaming. However, I have gotten the "saying porn is bad is stupid/*anyone who says they don't use it is lying*" message from a variety of posters here and there.


Ah. I hear you. The bolded just makes me think that this person needs to validate their own view by insisting it is universal. 



> People who openly state that they or their partners do not use it are frequently questioned, poked fun at, or it is implied that their partner is lying to them "because every man uses it."
> 
> THAT is the shaming I was referring to. My point is that if we are going to defend pornography use as a personal freedom, then we should respect one's choice NOT to use it or NOT to like it as a personal freedom as well.
> 
> ...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

OnTheFly said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > To sum up the Bible on sex, get married and bang. Those who think there is shame surrounding sexuality (in a married context) haven’t read the Bible or willfully distort it.
> ...


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I may be the only person who does this, but sometimes when I reply to a post, I am using that post as a jumping off point, and my comments might be a bit more general and not related to that post and that post only. In other words, poster A's post might make me think of a general trend or something I have noticed from posters B and C that I had not yet commented on. So, rather than go and find the specific words used by B and C in who knows which page of what thread, I will begin my comment specifically addressing poster A and then morphing to a more general line of thought.
> 
> *Like I said, perhaps no one else does that. Perhaps their quotation comments are narrowly specific to the exact quotation.*
> 
> ...


That makes 2 of us then.

Confused what I said and how could be taken as shaming
No intention to do so.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> OnTheFly said:
> 
> 
> > personofinterest said:
> ...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> OnTheFly said:
> 
> 
> > Says the expert!
> ...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

red oak said:


> That makes 2 of us then.
> 
> Confused what I said and how could be taken as shaming
> No intention to do so.


You didn't. I explained in the longer post.

I'm just the fun kind of person some like to over-analyze. Whether it's the God thing or the fact that I often use talk-to-text.

Oh, I forgot, I'm also apparently a misandrist hahahahaha

I am apparently EXTREMELY important lololol


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> > Neither of these sources shame sex. Perhaps you do not comprehend what you read when you read the Bible....
> ...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > How do you know it is *I* who did not comprehend? Presumptuous. Paul did not have much use for sex OR women given he thought the end of days was nigh. But if you HAD to, get married.
> ...


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

I was raised in a religious household. 

Man or woman you didn't where shorts above the knee. Sex was taboo topic, if there was a light kiss on lips in a movie oe a woman was less than fully clothed on TV it was turned off immediately. 

Thought it didn't effect me until first time I had sex. Wound up feeling so dirty, guilty and ashamed was on my knees crying like a baby begging forgiveness. 

Took 4yrs to heal myself to the point I could enjoy sex free of guilt. 

When I think back I wonder why being a Christian becomes more about controlling sexual activity than being moral. 
Why is a Christian never shamed for getting bank loans, ingnoring a hungry person and not giving money to parents?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> > Nope, not what that means.
> ...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

red oak said:


> I was raised in a religious household.
> 
> Man or woman you didn't where shorts above the knee. Sex was taboo topic, if there was a light kiss on lips in a movie oe a woman was less than fully clothed on TV it was turned off immediately.
> 
> ...


From what I understand, this may be unique to the Americas in the western world. People manage to be Christian in Europe without getting all bent out of shape about sex, from what I understand.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> From what I understand, this may be unique to the Americas in the western world. *People manage to be Christian in Europe without getting all bent out of shape about sex*, from what I understand.


Way it should be. I know people deal with it every day. I feel for people. Having been there can see it's effects in many relationship problems.
The overall theme infiltrates our culture and affects lots of relationships.

No one should have to go through that.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

red oak said:


> Way it should be. I know people deal with it every day. I feel for people. Having been there can see it's effects in many relationship problems.
> The overall theme infiltrates our culture and affects lots of relationships.
> 
> No one should have to go through that.


So....now choosing not to do something is getting all bent out of shape.

Boy, you porn fans sure are defensive.....


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

red oak said:


> I was raised in a religious household.
> 
> Man or woman you didn't where shorts above the knee. Sex was taboo topic, if there was a light kiss on lips in a movie oe a woman was less than fully clothed on TV it was turned off immediately.
> 
> ...


Are you aware that there are millions of Christians who didn't grow up in your household and do NOT feel shame about sex?

Generalization is intellectually lazy.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you think I "have to be right"? I read the bible many, many times and was taught more than I ever wanted to know about it in school. So you feel your interpretation is right. I am entitled to my interpretation as well. I think you are the one who feels like you should be allowed to be the resident christian expert and get prickly when anyone dares think for themselves.
> ...


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> So....now choosing not to do something is getting all bent out of shape.
> 
> Boy, you porn fans sure are defensive.....


I think you have me confused with someone else. Remember I said I dont use porn.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Are you aware that there are millions of Christians who didn't grow up in your household and do NOT feel shame about sex?
> 
> Generalization is intellectually lazy.


Is it also intellectually lazy to make a generalization about a provable concept?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> > You know....if you hadn't felt the need to call out MY post at the top of the page, that had nothing to do with you, you'd have saved yourself "being sick." Just ignore me. You won't die.
> ...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> *Are you aware that there are millions of Christians who didn't grow up in your household and do NOT feel shame about sex?
> *
> Generalization is intellectually lazy.


I am sure there are. I can say from my experience, that many many who grew up in my community and church did grow up to feel a great deal of shame around sex. It is not isolated by any means. I have wondered, like Red Oak (I am pretty sure it was Red Oak, hope I am not mis-attributing) why many religious in the US seem to focus on sex related issues where the focus of Jesus' message had nothing to do with it.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

i am just going to leave this one brutal thought: If your partner uses porn all the time, YOU are at fault for not providing kinky and ever-changing sexual ideas into the relationship.

I think people who resent their partner using porn, are just resentful that they are too lazy, or incapable, of acting sexy enough


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Talker67 said:


> i am just going to leave this one brutal thought: If your partner uses porn all the time, YOU are at fault for not providing kinky and ever-changing sexual ideas into the relationship.
> 
> I think people who resent their partner using porn, are just resentful that they are too lazy, or incapable, of acting sexy enough


LOL what a ridiculous over-simplification.

I am certain if your spouse was using scat porn you'd be fine with her pooping in your mouth....right?

BTW, I don't really care about porn one way or the other. I'm just laughing at your ridiculous statement.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am sure there are. I can say from my experience, that many many who grew up in my community and church did grow up to feel a great deal of shame around sex. It is not isolated by any means. I have wondered, like Red Oak (I am pretty sure it was Red Oak, hope I am not mis-attributing) why many religious in the US seem to focus on sex related issues where the focus of Jesus' message had nothing to do with it.


Because most Bible-believing Christians don't think the "red letters" in the Bible are the only important words. Because Jesus agrees - "I have not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it."

And I am not going down the rabbit hole of explaining the difference between laws about mixed fabrics and laws about adultery and murder.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Because most Bible-believing Christians don't think the "red letters" in the Bible are the only important words. Because Jesus agrees - "I have not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it."
> 
> And I am not going down the rabbit hole of explaining the difference between laws about mixed fabrics and laws about adultery and murder.


He was pretty specific about the poor and the downtrodden. Doesn't seem like the focus to me.

ETA: I don't think you have a very good handle on "most" Christians.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> He was pretty specific about the poor and the downtrodden. Doesn't seem like the focus to me.


So Jesus only cared about one thing, so we cannot care about more than one thing at at a time. Got it


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> So Jesus only cared about one thing, so we cannot care about more than one thing at at a time. Got it


You really are having a hard time with this. If you want to respond to what is actually being said, I'm game to discuss.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> He was pretty specific about the poor and the downtrodden. Doesn't seem like the focus to me.
> 
> ETA: *I don't think you have a very good handle on "most" Christians*.


I think you are probably right. I probably am NOT the same as "most" of the people who claim Christianity.

As far as pornography goes, I honestly think there are a lot of other things that Christians need to be worrying about besides arrogantly ranting about naked ladies in pictures. Do I think that pornography can be a problem in marriages? Yes, like anything else, it can be addictive, and for some it takes the place of sex with a willing partner. However, I also think that if someone is looking at pornography because their spouse refuses sex, then the root of that issue is NOT the porn - it's the selfish, refusing spouse.


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