# Wife is ungrateful and unappreciate of my contributions



## nirvana

We have been married for about 15 years. For 14 years, she was stay at home and we have 2 kids. I worked and brought home the money and saved up enough that we have been able to buy new cars, a nice $500k single family house in a very good neighborhood and we are able to spend on what we life (within limit). I am saving for retirement and for kids' education. I invest money wisely and have no debt other than a new car I got (which I can pay off today) and our house which is 52% paid off after just 5 years.
In summary, I am very responsible with money and we are secure mainly because of my efforts. She did not bring home money, but she does the cooking, used to do laundry (now I do it), and everything else inside the house. I do the lawn and all the outside work.

The problem is she does not appreciate anything I do. She always hints that she wants to be treated special "because she works". Hey, I work too, I have been for 15 years in stressful situations and making over 100k for a long time. She makes half my money. I told her that we reached a net worth milestone today and she listened. Then she got angry for some silly reason and started taunting me about it "what is the use of making the money, you don't spend it". If I spend it like a drunken sailor like some of our friends did, we would still be in an apartment/townhouse like they are.

She is very ungrateful. I am not sure what else I can do. A little bit of appreciation would make me feel good as a man and love her more. Now I feel used.


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## maritalloneliness

Don't feel used, she seems very ungrateful. I hope you've expressed to her how awful she's behaving. She might be too secure in the marriage or holding on to some resentments. You seemed like a good husband, take comfort in that and go do something special for yourself.


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## meson

Being a man and a good husband is not only about money. It's about love and affection and having a connection with your spouse. From this post and your other thread I see that you do not have a connection with your spouse. You should try to discover what she wants out of marriage because you are not giving it to her. Are you giving her the emotional connection she needs? What are her needs and are you meeting them? Being a provider perhaps is not what she wants from you and the marriage alone. Are you there for her and the kids? Money is really a s,all part of life....


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## Faithful Wife

Are you grateful that she works?

If she earned more than you, do you think you would be proportionately more grateful to her based on her higher income?

I'm not saying she shouldn't be grateful, but you don't sound grateful, either.


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## EleGirl

Is your wife still working?



.


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## Cynthia

Have you asked her what she wants to spend money on?
Has she asked for something that you have said "no" to?


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## Decorum

nirvana said:


> We have been married for about 15 years. For 14 years, she was stay at home and we have 2 kids. I worked and brought home the money and saved up enough that we have been able to buy new cars, a nice $500k single family house in a very good neighborhood and we are able to spend on what we life (within limit). I am saving for retirement and for kids' education. I invest money wisely and have no debt other than a new car I got (which I can pay off today) and our house which is 52% paid off after just 5 years.
> In summary, I am very responsible with money and we are secure mainly because of my efforts. She did not bring home money, but she does the cooking, used to do laundry (now I do it), and everything else inside the house. I do the lawn and all the outside work.
> 
> The problem is she does not appreciate anything I do. She always hints that she wants to be treated special "because she works". Hey, I work too, I have been for 15 years in stressful situations and making over 100k for a long time. She makes half my money. I told her that we reached a net worth milestone today and she listened. Then she got angry for some silly reason and started taunting me about it "what is the use of making the money, you don't spend it". If I spend it like a drunken sailor like some of our friends did, we would still be in an apartment/townhouse like they are.
> 
> She is very ungrateful. I am not sure what else I can do. A little bit of appreciation would make me feel good as a man and love her more. Now I feel used.


What did she say when you told her that?

Just kidding.

Can you not look back and remember times she has put her arms around you and said "Thank you"..."Thank you for every thing you do that makes our life so wonderful! (Maybe with some specific examples)"

I cannot imaging going for years and never expressing gratitude for your partners contribution.

But at least she can look back and remember the times you have done so, right?

No?

Validation and appreciation/gratitude are fundamental relationship skills. 

Are you guys in competition for martyr of the year award?

Do you not have conversations on what each of you needs out of a relationship?

Well if not its time to graduate this to a more intentional relationship.

You really should work on bringing out the best in each other, time (perhaps) to address the direction your relationship is meandering in (if so).

This is not a "You" verses "Her" struggle, its an "We" verses a "NO we" effort that is the ongoing work that makes a marriage exclusive.

Its the spirit of the marriage, and it primary enemy is 
selfishness. 

BTW requiring each other to contribute is not selfish, it fundamental to a relationship. Without it you don't have a relationship you have a charity.


Dont rush headlong into this. Take a step back, consider where you guys are at and where you want to be and invite your wife (subtly) into this appraisal and to join you in weeding and pruning your marriage.

Do some planning together, small steps! (So include reading some books, and doing some marriage counseling, etc if it would be helpful.)

This is something a man needs to do, especially before he does any belly aching.

Take care!


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## Bobby5000

Wait you are a little arrogant also, touting your own contributions and not mentioning her raising the children. Note you do not get to determine how money is spent, this should be a joint decision. I think you need to do a little listening and perhaps with each of you listening things will get better and the marriage will be more fulfillin for both of you.


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## LongWalk

Good questions for you. 

Are your children doing well? Do they respect both of you?

Why do you do most of the housework? 

Why not hire someone to cut the grass?


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## unbelievable

The question of who is contributing "most" or "more" is one that really should never be asked because it never leads to anywhere good. If both of you are doing your best, working your hardest, then both are contributing equally and both deserve equal respect from the other. 
I applaud you for trying to pay off debt early. That's smart and you both will benefit in the end....if you stay married. There are two adults in this relationship and they don't exactly agree on the disposition of or the purpose of money. There is no right answer and no wrong answer. There is a mutually acceptable compromise answer that both can feel good about. It doesn't make sense to buy a $500K home and pay it off early if it's just going to be sold at a loss due to a divorce. One of the smartest financial decisions you can make is to keep your wife reasonably happy because when she leaves, you'll end up paying for two households. 
Whether you were married or not, wouldn't you still work? You aren't working as a service to your wife. You are working because that's who you are. Your wife can figure that out. If your job isn't a service to your wife, what are you doing to show your love, respect, and appreciation for her? 
Security for you might look like having money in the bank and no bills. Security for her might look like a committed saver buying the occasional gift for her even though it's too expensive, not practical, just something she wants. Maybe it looks like her husband giving her a hug, telling her how awesome she is and how lucky he feels to have her. 
I'm sure she appreciates the big house and if this marriage doesn't work out a judge very well might hand her the keys to it. The goal really isn't accumulating stuff, it's love and contentment for everyone in your family. If mom and dad feel both, the kids will follow suit. 
Look at your post. "I bought the house" "I bought my car" "I saved for retirement" "She makes half of my money". You are married and money earned is family money. There is no "I" and there is no "mine". If your wife manages the home and brings in $50K from some sort of employment, she's throwing down, too. I expect her money also goes to support the family.


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## Bobby5000

Do note you may be financially irresponsible in not arranging for proper savings. Divorce is one of the most significant financial events and investing in your marriage, a vacation, asking her what she wants, having her participate in decisions may be a wise investment indeed.


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## Anon Pink

what would you like your wife to do, or not do, in order for you to feel appreciated?

How do you show appreciation for her 24/7/365 job of raising kids?

Do you feel you both could do better in the "shows appreciation" category of being a good spouse?


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## nirvana

Thanks everybody, I went through some of the replies. I am at a car dealership now and wil reply to each one when I get back home.


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## skype

I would go over your household budget in detail with your wife. Is there something specific that she wants? Discuss ways to save up for big purchases. Is there something that you can cut back on so that she can get other things that she wants?

Money is a huge issue in marriage. Don't let it ruin yours. Go over your budget *together* and keep a tone of "we are a team, and we decide how to best spend our money." If you lord your earning power over your wife, you will create resentment in her that will not be easy to dispel.


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## nirvana

maritalloneliness said:


> Don't feel used, she seems very ungrateful. I hope you've expressed to her how awful she's behaving. She might be too secure in the marriage or holding on to some resentments. You seemed like a good husband, take comfort in that and go do something special for yourself.


Thank you marital. I think I am a good husband, but it is important that she think so. Otherwise, it is useless, as I am husband only to one. She probably has resentments as I was not the romantic husband in the initial part of our marriage. I owned up and have no excuse. My childhood was not particularly loving and my parents were a tad cold, so I probably carried that over. But I have realized that and am trying to bring some changes.


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## nirvana

meson said:


> Being a man and a good husband is not only about money. It's about love and affection and having a connection with your spouse. From this post and your other thread I see that you do not have a connection with your spouse. You should try to discover what she wants out of marriage because you are not giving it to her. Are you giving her the emotional connection she needs? What are her needs and are you meeting them? Being a provider perhaps is not what she wants from you and the marriage alone. Are you there for her and the kids? Money is really a s,all part of life....


Meson, yes in theory. But you need money also. If I had all the love and affection but no money, she would not be happy either. If I was stinking rich but no love, that would not work - she will divorce me and take half. So you need both in moderation. If is human nature to devalue what the have and overvalue what they don't have. We have some friends who blew up their savings on stupid stuff and are still in a townhouse when all of us have upgraded. If I had done/allowed the same, she would be cursing me.

I sometimes wonder if she uses it to make me do her bidding, as a control mechanism.


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## nirvana

Faithful Wife said:


> Are you grateful that she works?
> 
> If she earned more than you, do you think you would be proportionately more grateful to her based on her higher income?
> 
> I'm not saying she shouldn't be grateful, but you don't sound grateful, either.


"Grateful" is not the right word. I earn enough to support us all and I have been doing it for 14 years. She has been working only for the last 9 months.

I am *HAPPY * and *PROUD *that she is working because she is very intelligent and motivated and creative. She suffers from some low self esteem issues (long story) and I want her to get out of it and be her own person. I told her I didn't care how much she made (we could even go negative because of day care) but I wanted her to start her career. 

For me, it was never about money. I earn a good salary and invest well and make money on the side. I love having a confident achieving wife, that is my main interest. A confident wife should in theory appreciate her husband and see what he goes through and understand the issues I bring up. At least I thought. Money is not of much concern, I have what I need.


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## Anon Pink

FW asked if you were grateful that she worked. Your answer below reveals your complete lack of gratitude that you had your wife to care for your children 24/7/365. A thankless job and you kind of just proved exactly how thankless it was in your home.



nirvana said:


> "Grateful" is not the right word. I earn enough to support us all and I have been doing it for 14 years. She has been working only for the last 9 months.
> 
> .




Your words below revealeven more...



> She probably has resentments as I was not the romantic husband in the initial part of our marriage. I owned up and have no excuse. My childhood was not particularly loving and my parents were a tad cold, so I probably carried that over. But I have realized that and am trying to bring some changes.


She has resentments because you did not treat her in a loving romantic way. Having been in your wife's shoes, I am reading a lot more into this admission that you probably want to admit to right now. I just want to point out that you say you "owned up and have no excuses.." And this statement is followed by....EXCUSES. 

Then you say you are "trying to bring some changes." Are you trying or are you doing because the two are NOT the same.

This discussion mirrors the discussions I have had with my H so I'll repeat some of the things I've said and done and my own admissions as well.

You work your ass off, you take care of your family, you provide for them in every way, materially. As I've told my H, I can't imagine the pride you must feel when you look around and take in all you have and think "I made all of this possible." I mean that must be some kind of personal high! For me, I look at a spotless kitchen and an organized closet and say "I made that possible!" The two statements of achievement do not come close to being comparable, do they? 

I do my best to ensure my H feels rested and confident and prepared to face the business world and slay those financial dragons to bring home the meat. My role is support. I do it well.

But there are times I don't do it well. I feel resentment that my role as support, as caregiver of our children, as the home and garden guru feels so insignificant compared to what my H makes possible through his role/work. In those times, it would be good if my husband could show his love and support by reminding me why I feel in love with him in the first place. This is where romance comes in.

You admit you lacked the romance moves and you admit your wife has resentments as a result. Those resentments prevent her from being the supportive, loving woman she used to be. You can only give so much for so long before the well runs dry and that might be where your wife is right now.

She is working outside the home now. She is getting her kudos and appreciation, refilling her well, from working. Not from you. Not from the role she once had as sole carer of the home and family.

You're in a precarious position right now. Your wife still resents the lack of care and concern you showed and no longer sees herself as your support because her well ran dry. Now she sees herself as being a married single person. Yes she is married but unlike a true marriage she is getting her emotional needs (her well replenished) not from her husband but from work. At work she is appreciated, thanked, paid, and probably praised. This is the stuff you should have been doing.

How are you going to turn this around?


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## meson

nirvana said:


> meson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being a man and a good husband is not only about money. It's about love and affection and having a connection with your spouse. From this post and your other thread I see that you do not have a connection with your spouse. You should try to discover what she wants out of marriage because you are not giving it to her. Are you giving her the emotional connection she needs? What are her needs and are you meeting them? Being a provider perhaps is not what she wants from you and the marriage alone. Are you there for her and the kids? Money is really a s,all part of life....
> 
> 
> 
> Meson, yes in theory. But you need money also. If I had all the love and affection but no money, she would not be happy either. If I was stinking rich but no love, that would not work - she will divorce me and take half. So you need both in moderation. If is human nature to devalue what the have and overvalue what they don't have. We have some friends who blew up their savings on stupid stuff and are still in a townhouse when all of us have upgraded. If I had done/allowed the same, she would be cursing me.
> 
> I sometimes wonder if she uses it to make me do her bidding, as a control mechanism.
Click to expand...

I noticed that you side stepped all of my questions to focus again on money. This shows me that you are probably doing the same thing to your wife and marginalizing her opinions and feelings in favor of your obsession with money. This marginalization will build resentment in her and make her feel that she has an ungrateful husband who does not value her.


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## nirvana

EleGirl said:


> Is your wife still working?
> 
> 
> 
> .



Yes, she is. She got a full time position in Jan. She loves her new place, but she says it is a busy job, but she loves the people and the work.


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## nirvana

CynthiaDe said:


> Have you asked her what she wants to spend money on?
> Has she asked for something that you have said "no" to?


She generally wants to buy girly stuff like shoes, watch, clothes etc and I never object to those because she looks fantastic and can carry it off well smthumbup. She has maintained herself very well after 2 kids and in fact I encourage her to wear different types of clothes as this is the age for her to do so. I know she will not overspend on something ridiculous. I watch the expenses though through financial software because I want to make sure we get back anything she has returned and there is no credit card fraud happening.

She said she wanted a treadmill. I started to look for deals and the right one to get. Those are expensive ($600-700) and not much fun running in the basement. Summer is here, so it is much better to be out running. She said she wanted a bicycle, and those are cheap, but there is no space in the garage to put one. We also have kids bikes.

Many years ago (2001) she had asked for a cellphone and I had said no (I didn't get one for myself either) because they were too expensive and we didn't have a use for it. She still uses that against me. We got them in 2004. 

Well, maybe there is nothing much I can do, I just have to do what is right and let people criticize. If I had blown up our savings on unwanted things to please others, we would be in a precarious financial position and she would have been FORCED to work. Now she works because she wants to. Big difference.


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## nirvana

Decorum said:


> What did she say when you told her that?
> 
> Just kidding.
> 
> Can you not look back and remember times she has put her arms around you and said "Thank you"..."Thank you for every thing you do that makes our life so wonderful! (Maybe with some specific examples)"
> 
> I cannot imaging going for years and never expressing gratitude for your partners contribution.
> 
> But at least she can look back and remember the times you have done so, right?
> 
> No?
> 
> Validation and appreciation/gratitude are fundamental relationship skills.
> 
> Are you guys in competition for martyr of the year award?
> 
> Do you not have conversations on what each of you needs out of a relationship?
> 
> Well if not its time to graduate this to a more intentional relationship.
> 
> You really should work on bringing out the best in each other, time (perhaps) to address the direction your relationship is meandering in (if so).
> 
> This is not a "You" verses "Her" struggle, its an "We" verses a "NO we" effort that is the ongoing work that makes a marriage exclusive.
> 
> Its the spirit of the marriage, and it primary enemy is
> selfishness.
> 
> BTW requiring each other to contribute is not selfish, it fundamental to a relationship. Without it you don't have a relationship you have a charity.
> 
> 
> Dont rush headlong into this. Take a step back, consider where you guys are at and where you want to be and invite your wife (subtly) into this appraisal and to join you in weeding and pruning your marriage.
> 
> Do some planning together, small steps! (So include reading some books, and doing some marriage counseling, etc if it would be helpful.)
> 
> This is something a man needs to do, especially before he does any belly aching.
> 
> Take care!


Her family (dad and sister) have this whole issue with claiming and demanding credit all the time. They are all over facebook saying things so that people think what wonderful people they are. They love being flattered but never have a word of appreciation for others. Some of that has rubbed off on my wife as well. So she always talks about how she is stressed, how her life is busy and not thinking that everybody's life is busy and her husband is stressed too. 

She does appreciate me sometimes (very rarely), but the qualifier is how she contributed to it also. For example, I have always been thin and lean as a kid. People laughed at me then, but as an adult, it's worked in my favor because I don't have a paunch and am tall, so I look good formy age. My ex male classmates generally look much older. She claims it is because of her healthy cooking. Yes, that played a part, but the main reason is that I have always been thin (genes) and I eat less. Why not just make someone happy by saying you look nice without saying "because of me"? Her dad and sister do the same. 

I compliment her all the time. I tell her she looks hot. I don't do idle flattery, I mean what I say. I tell her that her cooking rocks. She married me with ZERO cooking skills. Now she is at a professional level where she does her magic and in minutes has something awesome ready. Now that is some serious skill. She did it herself, buying cook books and experimenting. No classes. She has done a great job at parenting our kids and I tell her that. But she wants me to say that I had no part in it (not explicitly). Now that is not fair because I have also spent time with the kid, and I was working at the same time to afford the classes and to afford her time with the kids.

She has this martyr thing that she does. But then she takes on 1000s of projects that no one person can do. Then she gets angry that she is not able to do and blames me. I tell her to relax and not attempt so much. 
Also, I am just here trying to explain the problem, not looking for sympathy but solutions. Maybe this problem has no solution.

Thanks for your post, I appreciate your suggestions.


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## nirvana

Bobby5000 said:


> Wait you are a little arrogant also, touting your own contributions and not mentioning her raising the children. Note you do not get to determine how money is spent, this should be a joint decision. I think you need to do a little listening and perhaps with each of you listening things will get better and the marriage will be more fulfillin for both of you.


I don't see how I am being arrogant. 
There is only so much I can write in a post without spending all day on it. There are many other things that I do (like paying bills, doing taxes) that I did not mention. Bills don't pay themselves, you know. Cars don't fill themselves up with gas, you know. The house doesn't fix itself.

I do get to determine what we spend money on. Of course, it is a joint decision, I ask her view on big spends (house/car/vacation) and she asks me. She doesn't mind me running the finances, she doesn't really like worrying about it. Just like I don't like worrying about clothes or nutrition. She does that best, so she buys my clothes and decides what the kids and I eat. Both do what we are good at. I am good at long term spending decisions. I have been right almost all the time. 
The little purchases, we don't ask each other and it has worked out.


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## nirvana

LongWalk said:


> Good questions for you.
> 
> Are your children doing well? Do they respect both of you?
> 
> Why do you do most of the housework?
> 
> Why not hire someone to cut the grass?


Kids are angels and make us proud. Very respectful and doing well in school. They eat healthy (all credit to my wife) and don't spend too much time on iPad/Wii (credit goes to me). 

I don't do most of the housework. We are somewhat equal. She used to do most if before she started working (in a job). Now that she is working, it's only fair that I help out. So I load and unload the dish washer. I do most of the laundry now (mine, kids, and many times hers also). I do almost all the work outside the house like lawn, car repair, gas filling etc. She does most of the grocery shopping though sometimes I go along too. Clothes shopping is all hers. She does all the cooking except for a few meals when we go out, but she spends a lot of time on cooking and packing lunches.

I could hire someone. But then I like the exercise and outdoor work and also teach my kids that doing one's own work is the way to go. I could easily afford to hire someone, but I don't. Initially my wife wanted us to hire ("what will people think?") but I told her I didn't care what people thought. I like doing things myself if I can, in general.


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## Yeswecan

nirvana said:


> Thank you marital. I think I am a good husband, but it is important that she think so. Otherwise, it is useless, as I am husband only to one. She probably has resentments as I was not the romantic husband in the initial part of our marriage. I owned up and have no excuse. My childhood was not particularly loving and my parents were a tad cold, so I probably carried that over. But I have realized that and am trying to bring some changes.


It is all right here brother. You echo my marriage. Years of making it work financially. Focus on many things to make it work but losing focus on the one thing. That one thing is your W and affection/appreciation. 

Took me 20 years to get my head out of my a$$. All the money in the world could be dumped on her lap and she would not care. She just wanted my affection, friendship and love. Once I put my W first the entire marriage changed. My W shows more appreciation than a person can stand. I show my W appreciation more than one can stand. She is a SAHM. She keeps to our budget. She is conscientious of all expenditures. She works. Just a different kind of work than you and I understand as work.

And yeah, spend some money on your W. What else are you making money for? You really can not take it with you.


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## nirvana

Bobby5000 said:


> Do note you may be financially irresponsible in not arranging for proper savings. Divorce is one of the most significant financial events and investing in your marriage, a vacation, asking her what she wants, having her participate in decisions may be a wise investment indeed.


I have a lot of savings. Remember that I achieved this with 1 salary. I have a lot of investments too, so financially we are well off. I don't do the paycheck to paycheck stuff. I am planning for our retirement and for kid's college. I dream of sending them to Harvard/Stanford, not XYZ community college. So I need to save up and make sacrifices.

Yes, we need to take more vacations, but we have all been so busy. It's more of a time thing that money thing now. I can easily shell out the cash, but what about time off? She is 3 months old in her new company.


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## Yeswecan

nirvana said:


> I have a lot of savings. Remember that I achieved this with 1 salary. I have a lot of investments too, so financially we are well off. I don't do the paycheck to paycheck stuff. I am planning for our retirement and for kid's college. I dream of sending them to Harvard/Stanford, not XYZ community college. So I need to save up and make sacrifices.
> 
> Yes, we need to take more vacations, but we have all been so busy. It's more of a time thing that money thing now. I can easily shell out the cash, but what about time off? She is 3 months old in her new company.


Stop and smell the roses.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> She generally wants to buy girly stuff like shoes, watch, clothes etc and I never object to those because she looks fantastic and can carry it off well smthumbup. She has maintained herself very well after 2 kids and in fact I encourage her to wear different types of clothes as this is the age for her to do so. I know she will not overspend on something ridiculous. I watch the expenses though through financial software because I want to make sure we get back anything she has returned and there is no credit card fraud happening.
> 
> She said she wanted a treadmill. I started to look for deals and the right one to get. Those are expensive ($600-700) and not much fun running in the basement. Summer is here, so it is much better to be out running. She said she wanted a bicycle, and those are cheap, but there is no space in the garage to put one. We also have kids bikes.
> 
> Many years ago (2001) she had asked for a cellphone and I had said no (I didn't get one for myself either) because they were too expensive and *we didn't have a use for it.* She still uses that against me. We got them in 2004.
> 
> Well, maybe there is nothing much I can do, I just have to do what is right and let people criticize. If I had blown up our savings on unwanted things to please others, we would be in a precarious financial position and she would have been FORCED to work. Now she works because she wants to. Big difference.


She apparently had a use for it. Honest to goodness, you said "no"? What are you, her father?


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## nirvana

unbelievable said:


> The question of who is contributing "most" or "more" is one that really should never be asked because it never leads to anywhere good. If both of you are doing your best, working your hardest, then both are contributing equally and both deserve equal respect from the other.
> I applaud you for trying to pay off debt early. That's smart and you both will benefit in the end....if you stay married. There are two adults in this relationship and they don't exactly agree on the disposition of or the purpose of money. There is no right answer and no wrong answer. There is a mutually acceptable compromise answer that both can feel good about. It doesn't make sense to buy a $500K home and pay it off early if it's just going to be sold at a loss due to a divorce. One of the smartest financial decisions you can make is to keep your wife reasonably happy because when she leaves, you'll end up paying for two households.
> Whether you were married or not, wouldn't you still work? You aren't working as a service to your wife. You are working because that's who you are. Your wife can figure that out. If your job isn't a service to your wife, what are you doing to show your love, respect, and appreciation for her?
> Security for you might look like having money in the bank and no bills. Security for her might look like a committed saver buying the occasional gift for her even though it's too expensive, not practical, just something she wants. Maybe it looks like her husband giving her a hug, telling her how awesome she is and how lucky he feels to have her.
> I'm sure she appreciates the big house and if this marriage doesn't work out a judge very well might hand her the keys to it. The goal really isn't accumulating stuff, it's love and contentment for everyone in your family. If mom and dad feel both, the kids will follow suit.
> Look at your post. "I bought the house" "I bought my car" "I saved for retirement" "She makes half of my money". You are married and money earned is family money. There is no "I" and there is no "mine". If your wife manages the home and brings in $50K from some sort of employment, she's throwing down, too. I expect her money also goes to support the family.


I agree with the first paragraph. She works hard and so do I. I acknowledge that she does, but she thinks that I do not. 

Ok, I think we are making some progress in the direction I am looking for. This may be a Men are from Mars type of thing. I am doing the right thing and men would be able to appreciate. But maybe not women because they are looking for something else. I have no doubt in my mind that I did the right thing in making some tough choices financially to get to where we are where she also benefits. Kids is HUGE for her, and they get to go to a really good school which was not the case if we had not bought this house. She has a great friend circle here. Nice spacious house. No financial stress. Now this can be a killer, if you are always wondering if you will lose your home.

But I am thinking like a man. As for compliments, I give her a lot all the time. I tell her how awesome she looks (she does) and how great her cooking is (it is). How she's done a good job on the kids. Maybe I need to listen a bit closer when she makes a "I did such a great job on XYZ" statment and give her a compliment on that? I'll try that. But it still does not solve the issue I have where she thinks that she is awesome and I am not. I sometimes feel that she uses it as a way to keep me guessing and in control.

The last paragraph, please don't focus on the semantics and try to take some meaning that does not exist. Yes, I save for retirement because it is something that I do. She does not. She does the cooking, I do not. How can I claim that I do when I don't? I am just trying to tell you what she does and what I do. She does not know or care what we have in the 401k retirement account. I look at it every day. We all have our own unique skills. 

If you want to know, the house is in our joint name, and so is our credit card and bank account. So the words I use are moot, it is what I do.

There is a reason why I posted this in a woman's forum. I knew I would get a lot of criticism of "you are so arrogant" or such. Most women will side with my wife and find some fault in even the good things I am doing. No problem.

I will look past that and I am hoping that a woman can tell me what else she might be wanting or how to get a woman to appreciate the only person in the world who actually loves her enough as to do things for her.


----------



## nirvana

Anon Pink said:


> what would you like your wife to do, or not do, in order for you to feel appreciated?
> 
> How do you show appreciation for her 24/7/365 job of raising kids?
> 
> Do you feel you both could do better in the "shows appreciation" category of being a good spouse?


I don't want money, I don't want gifts.
I just want her to tell me that she loves me and tell me that she appreciates the pain I have undergone for our family during the recession years and through bad managers and all that. To acknowledge my contributions.

I give her a lot of compliments about everything she does. She has a "sure, whatever" reaction many times which makes me feel that maybe I overdo it? If I don't compliment the cooking she asks me "how is it?" which means that she is wondering why I have not said anything. But when I do, she seems to brush it off many times.

We could all always improve, of course. Maybe I should give her more gifts. That is something I should do which I don't do enough of.

But will that make her appreciate me and make me happy? I don't think so.


----------



## nirvana

skype said:


> I would go over your household budget in detail with your wife. Is there something specific that she wants? Discuss ways to save up for big purchases. Is there something that you can cut back on so that she can get other things that she wants?
> 
> Money is a huge issue in marriage. Don't let it ruin yours. Go over your budget *together* and keep a tone of "we are a team, and we decide how to best spend our money." If you lord your earning power over your wife, you will create resentment in her that will not be easy to dispel.


I should emphasize, that money is not the issue here. We have enough. Not obscene amounts, but enough that we are comfortable.

The problem from my side is she does not appreciate my contributions and seems to think that she deserves credit for everything without seeing that most of what she did was because I was working to make it possible.


----------



## nirvana

meson said:


> I noticed that you side stepped all of my questions to focus again on money. This shows me that you are probably doing the same thing to your wife and marginalizing her opinions and feelings in favor of your obsession with money. This marginalization will build resentment in her and make her feel that she has an ungrateful husband who does not value her.


Ok, I don't think we are making any progress here and you are making a bunch of assumptions and I don't have the time to correct this.

Thanks for your posts on this thread.


----------



## Yeswecan

nirvana said:


> I don't want money, I don't want gifts.
> I just want her to tell me that she loves me and tell me that she appreciates the pain I have undergone for our family during the recession years and through bad managers and all that. To acknowledge my contributions.


The pain you went through? I went through the bad recession, managers and loss of job twice. I managed to keep a roof over our heads. My W acknowledged a few times what a wonderful provider I have been and still are. That is enough for me. What exactly do you need your W to do?


----------



## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> I don't want money, I don't want gifts.
> I just want her to tell me that she loves me and tell me that she appreciates the *pain *I have undergone for our family during the recession years and through bad managers and all that. To acknowledge my contributions.


I am trying to understand this. You went to work. And managed the finances. Where is the pain? Is there pain I am supposed to be feeling that I am missing?


----------



## Yeswecan

nirvana said:


> I should emphasize, that money is not the issue here. We have enough. Not obscene amounts, but enough that we are comfortable.
> 
> The problem from my side is she does not appreciate my contributions and seems to think that she deserves credit for everything without seeing that most of what she did was because I was working to make it possible.


You are the proverbial Mr. Wonderful. 

Never mind the fact your W stayed home so you could go do all these wonderful financial dealings. Get off your high horse and understand the things she did made it possible for the things you did.


----------



## Anon Pink

nirvana said:


> I don't want money, I don't want gifts.
> I just want her to tell me that she loves me and tell me that she appreciates the pain I have undergone for our family during the recession years and through bad managers and all that. To acknowledge my contributions.
> 
> I give her a lot of compliments about everything she does. She has a "sure, whatever" reaction many times which makes me feel that maybe I overdo it? If I don't compliment the cooking she asks me "how is it?" which means that she is wondering why I have not said anything. But when I do, she seems to brush it off many times.
> 
> We could all always improve, of course. Maybe I should give her more gifts. That is something I should do which I don't do enough of.
> 
> But will that make her appreciate me and make me happy? I don't think so.


If I had a dollar for every time I've written this:

Women were raised to be modest. Even very competitive women got the message that basking in praise is immodest and unattractive for a woman. We seek validation and praise, just like men do, we need validation and praise, just like men do, but unlike men we got the message that we are not supposed to accept validation and praise because that would be immodest.

So when she appears to brush off your compliments...IGNORE IT! If it bothers you that she brushes it off, tell her you would like her to reply with a bright smile and an earnest thank you instead of pretending your words don't mean anything to her. I promise you that your words mean the world to her. She just can't show it.

So the real problem is that you don't feel loved. If she showed appreciation you would feel loved.

I think you confuse being loved with being appreciated. So your FOO only paid attention to you when you got it wrong? You grew up thinking if you succeeded, you would get the positive strokes you (and everyone) need?

You should have a conversation with your wife in which you both explore how you each "feel loved." 

You can start this by going here. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/enq.pdf And printing out two copies of the emotional needs questionnaire. You each complete one as thoroughly and detailed as possible and then you come together again and share your answers.


----------



## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> She apparently had a use for it. Honest to goodness, you said "no"? What are you, her father?


"Apparently". How would you guess?

No, she did not have a use for it. She wanted it because a friend had it and she wanted to keep up with the Joneses. She was in her mid 20s then.

If we had done that, then we would be bankrupt by now.

Your last statement is very silly, so I will ignore it. If you want to help, you should layoff the snarky comments.


----------



## nirvana

Yeswecan said:


> The pain you went through? I went through the bad recession, managers and loss of job twice. I managed to keep a roof over our heads. My W acknowledged a few times what a wonderful provider I have been and still are. That is enough for me. What exactly do you need your W to do?


If you want to complain about your problem, go open a new thread.

I expect my wife to do what your wife did for you.


----------



## nirvana

Yeswecan said:


> You are the proverbial Mr. Wonderful.
> 
> Never mind the fact your W stayed home so you could go do all these wonderful financial dealings. Get off your high horse and understand the things she did made it possible for the things you did.


Ok, you are on my ignore list. Don't need to waste my time on meaningless replies.


----------



## Yeswecan

nirvana said:


> Ok, you are on my ignore list. Don't need to waste my time on meaningless replies.


Thank you because you are only looking for people who are agreeing with you. Good luck.


----------



## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> I am trying to understand this. You went to work. And managed the finances. Where is the pain? Is there pain I am supposed to be feeling that I am missing?


The pain is working at places which are toxic, just so that I can have an income and health insurance. It's not easy for a "brown" person in certain parts of America. There is a lot of racism, expressed just in different ways. I decided not to move to California just because I did not want to uproot her life. Maybe that was a bad decision in hindsight.


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## nirvana

Yeswecan said:


> Thank you because you are only looking for people who are agreeing with you. Good luck.


And you are looking to please the ladies here for brownie points instead of addressing the issue.
Goodbye.


----------



## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> "Apparently". How would you guess?
> 
> No, she did not have a use for it. She wanted it because a friend had it and she wanted to keep up with the Joneses. She was in her mid 20s then.


That was HER use for it. 



> If we had done that, then we would be bankrupt by now.


If you had gotten a cell phone or made financial decisions over the years collaboratively, you would be bankrupt now? 

Your last statement is very silly, so I will ignore it. If you want to help, you should layoff the snarky comments.[/QUOTE]

I was not being snarky. I was being dead serious. Unilateral decision making is not marriage for most people.

But in the final analysis, the person you ought to be asking is YOUR WIFE.


----------



## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> The pain is working at places which are toxic, just so that I can have an income and health insurance. It's not easy for a "brown" person in certain parts of America. There is a lot of racism, expressed just in different ways. I decided not to move to California just because I did not want to uproot her life. Maybe that was a bad decision in hindsight.


I am sorry you experienced racism in the workplace. That is ****ty.


----------



## nirvana

Anon Pink said:


> If I had a dollar for every time I've written this:
> 
> Women were raised to be modest. Even very competitive women got the message that basking in praise is immodest and unattractive for a woman. We seek validation and praise, just like men do, we need validation and praise, just like men do, but unlike men we got the message that we are not supposed to accept validation and praise because that would be immodest.
> 
> So when she appears to brush off your compliments...IGNORE IT! If it bothers you that she brushes it off, tell her you would like her to reply with a bright smile and an earnest thank you instead of pretending your words don't mean anything to her. I promise you that your words mean the world to her. She just can't show it.
> 
> So the real problem is that you don't feel loved. If she showed appreciation you would feel loved.
> 
> I think you confuse being loved with being appreciated. So your FOO only paid attention to you when you got it wrong? You grew up thinking if you succeeded, you would get the positive strokes you (and everyone) need?
> 
> You should have a conversation with your wife in which you both explore how you each "feel loved."
> 
> You can start this by going here. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/enq.pdf And printing out two copies of the emotional needs questionnaire. You each complete one as thoroughly and detailed as possible and then you come together again and share your answers.


One of the most helpful posts here. Thank you!

Some posters have sadly used my issue to beat up on me, either men looking to gain favor with other female posters or some women harboring some deep seated hatred for men in general. I will ignore those posters.

As I said, I love my wife and I am not looking to divorce her. I am looking to make us happier. My issue from my POV is that she never compliments me or says things that matter to me. She never makes me feel good like men like to. For a man, his wife/girlfriends acknowledgment means the world. So what am I missing that she deprives me of it?

Your paragraphs about women and praise make good sense. Maybe that is what is going on.

What is "FOO"?

Thanks for the link, I will check it out.


----------



## nirvana

> That was HER use for it.


Maybe. But one can't go out and buy everything one feels a use for. This was 2001, just 1 year after we got married. I didn't think we could afford paying $100+ a month on something that was not very useful at that time. Not many of her friends had cell phones, so there was no real need for it. We were single income at that time.

It's not that I deprived her. I sacrificed myself as well. I drove my old Accord from 1998 to 2014. It was so beat up that she was embarrassed for me and wanted me to get a new car. I said I will get one, but when I feel financially good about it. I did, in Dec 2014, so I bought a nice new one. 

I've bought her 2 new cars in the past, once in 2002 and once in 2011. All the while, I drove my beat up car. I have no regrets, am not being "Mr Wonderful" here like some posters claim. I just did the right thing in my mind. I am just presenting facts that are relevant.





> If we had done that, then we would be bankrupt by now.
> If you had gotten a cell phone or made financial decisions over the years collaboratively, you would be bankrupt now?


It wasn't just a phone, it was many things that add up. She once wanted a Lexus in 2009. I said no. If we had gone for it, then we wouldn't have been able to buy the house the next year. Now don't say something like "maybe she wanted the Lexus more than the house". No, she wanted the house more. A good house comes with a good school district. She loves her kids.





> I was not being snarky. I was being dead serious. Unilateral decision making is not marriage for most people.


It's not unilateral decision making. Some areas, I have more weight, and in some she has more weight. She decides who wears what and eats what. She is good at it. I am awful, so I let her decide. I am much better at financial planning than she is. And she knows it too.


----------



## Yeswecan

nirvana said:


> And you are looking to please the ladies here for brownie points instead of addressing the issue.
> Goodbye.


 
Yes, you nailed it exactly. 

It appears to me you did not read my 1st post in your thread. But that is ok. You may cherry pick what works for you.


----------



## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> Maybe. But one can't go out and buy everything one feels a use for.


Of course not. I am suggesting that her feelings might had been effected by the unilateral nature of the decision. 



> It's not unilateral decision making. Some areas, I have more weight, and in some she has more weight. She decides who wears what and eats what. She is good at it. I am awful, so I let her decide. I am much better at financial planning than she is. And she knows it too.




Ok cool. As long as you both agree. Then rock it. Aside from the stuff AA sent, Love Language quizzes online can be helpful. Have you mentioned this issue to your wife? If so, how did she respond?


----------



## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> I am sorry you experienced racism in the workplace. That is ****ty.


I am Indian. As in from India, not native American.

The general problem that we face if we don't live in the Bay Area is that it is hard to get promoted or raises. They will praise your work, but when you expect a promotion, the hammer falls and they make life difficult for you. At times, I wish I had just moved to CA, it would have been much easier on me for the opportunities.

No one these days calls you a "sand-ni**er" or anything to your face but racism is very much there and will never go away. You have to work 3 times harder than a white American to have a chance at achieving the same level of money/title. I have seen some really mediocre people pushed up the ranks in my previous company just for their race.


----------



## nirvana

> Of course not. I am suggesting that her feelings might had been effected by the unilateral nature of the decision.


I think you are right here, but I don't think what else I could have done. These are not easy things to do. If I had loads of cash, I would have gone out and bought it.

I probably could have done the same thing but handled it differently. Who knows, I was also in my 20s then.




> Ok cool. As long as you both agree. Then rock it. Aside from the stuff AA sent, Love Language quizzes online can be helpful. Have you mentioned this issue to your wife? If so, how did she respond?


Well, I have told her that whenever appreciates me at all. I get the feeling she uses that as a carrot "you do XYZ and I will throw a bone of praise" type of thing. Its like "what have you done for me lately". She wants me to "spend more time with the kids". Hey, i want to as well, but I need to get home after 9 hours work and 2 hours commute and work some more on investing and on learning new skills to keep up and be marketable. I don't have all the time in the world.

I'll look at the links.


----------



## Anon Pink

nirvana said:


> One of the most helpful posts here. Thank you!
> 
> Some posters have sadly used my issue to beat up on me, either men looking to gain favor with other female posters or some women harboring some deep seated hatred for men in general. I will ignore those posters.
> 
> As I said, I love my wife and I am not looking to divorce her. I am looking to make us happier. My issue from my POV is that she never compliments me or says things that matter to me. She never makes me feel good like men like to. For a man, his wife/girlfriends acknowledgment means the world. So what am I missing that she deprives me of it?
> 
> Your paragraphs about women and praise make good sense. Maybe that is what is going on.
> 
> What is "FOO"?
> 
> Thanks for the link, I will check it out.



Oh my goodness, your marriage mirrors mine so much...

FOO = Family Of Origin.

Does your wife know you need to hear affirmation from her? I hate to admit this but I never said affirming things to my H because I thought men didn't need that like women did. 

I used to lower my head and wave away praise because it embarrassed me for several reasons. 1. I had no idea how to respond to praise. 2. I LOVED hearing it but I was embarrassed that people might see how much I loved it so I kept my head down. I didn't want them to see how very much their kind words affected me. 3. I waved it away because it was easier to shut them down then to find a way to accept what they said and be thankful. These responses are nearly universal for women. We have to learn how to accept praise. Throw a beaming smile and say thank you.

My H is also the financial steward. And he also makes decisions I'm not happy with. This is not a common thing today. I'm okay with it because I would have absolutely thrown us in the poor house with bad decisions and debt.

However... Like my husband is learning now, there has to be a balance between enjoying today (for the future is not guaranteed) and living for the future. If all pleasure are put off for some set point in time, who knows what could happen by then. Will both of you still be alive and healthy enough to enjoy those things you've put off? It's a difficult balance. 

My H also struggles with spending/saving. Since I have zero sense on this, I trust his judgment and look to him to decide what things we can do and what things we postpone. It sometimes means I'm super unhappy with his decision. If you're going to be the financial leader, YOU have to weigh what is in the financial best interest, what is in the emotional best interest and which takes precedence when. That's your burden to bear. Your wife needs to understand that and maybe on some level she does. But she isn't showing that faith and trust and that's what you need right now...I think. 

I think though, you two simply aren't communicating about what each of you need, emotionally, from the other.


----------



## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> I am Indian. As in from India, not native American.
> 
> The general problem that we face if we don't live in the Bay Area is that it is hard to get promoted or raises. They will praise your work, but when you expect a promotion, the hammer falls and they make life difficult for you. At times, I wish I had just moved to CA, it would have been much easier on me for the opportunities.
> 
> No one these days calls you a "sand-ni**er" or anything to your face but racism is very much there and will never go away. You have to work 3 times harder than a white American to have a chance at achieving the same level of money/title. I have seen some really mediocre people pushed up the ranks in my previous company just for their race.


I forget that this is the case in much of the country. Where I am, tons of my colleagues are Indian, and not just the ones who live in India!


----------



## nirvana

Yeswecan said:


> It is all right here brother. You echo my marriage. Years of making it work financially. Focus on many things to make it work but losing focus on the one thing. That one thing is your W and affection/appreciation.
> 
> Took me 20 years to get my head out of my a$$. All the money in the world could be dumped on her lap and she would not care. She just wanted my affection, friendship and love. Once I put my W first the entire marriage changed. My W shows more appreciation than a person can stand. I show my W appreciation more than one can stand. She is a SAHM. She keeps to our budget. She is conscientious of all expenditures. She works. Just a different kind of work than you and I understand as work.
> 
> And yeah, spend some money on your W. What else are you making money for? You really can not take it with you.



OK, I just saw this post after your other ones. Too bad, I didn't see this earlier. 

I give her affection and love. Could I give "more"? Sure... but I do as much as I can. Could she give me love and appreciation? Yes. She seems to think that focusing love on the kids will somehow transfer to me. Yes, it makes me happy, but I need some love too.

So what did you do that made things change? Did she appreciate it make you happy or is it just a one way thing where she is happier but you are the same?


----------



## skype

Nirvana, you remind me a lot of my father. He was the child of immigrants, and he was completely focused on monetary success, on "making it," and on proving to everyone that he could achieve his goals.

He squeezed every nickel until it squeaked. We three children did not have to take out a loan for college, and he was very proud of that. BUT, I did not appreciate his efforts because all he ever talked about with me was how many A's I got. Was my major going to lead to a well-paying job? It was all about him and how others perceived him.

I wanted so badly for him to love me no matter what grades I got. Maybe your wife wants you to listen to her. Maybe she wants to go on a date where you don't calculate the cost down to the last penny. Maybe she will appreciate you once you start appreciating her for who she is rather than seeing her as an appendage that you have to support.


----------



## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> I think you are right here, but I don't think what else I could have done. These are not easy things to do. If I had loads of cash, I would have gone out and bought it.


For US, for what it is worth, the default position on any purchase is to not purchase. Then we negotiate any wants and needs. So we open YNAB (You Need a Budget) and say ok what bucket does that come out of. If he (I do the money) says out of groceries, I say um not thinking so much... He does not have to defend the WHY of the purchase because his why is going to look really different from my why. Just where the money is coming from.

An added bonus is having to do that, either of us, makes us WAY less likely to bother.




> I probably could have done the same thing but handled it differently. Who knows, I was also in my 20s then.


Live and learn. We married when we were in our 20s. Had loads of troubles. In our case, we were lucky enough to uncover them early and not let resentment build.



> Well, I have told her that whenever appreciates me at all. I get the feeling she uses that as a carrot "you do XYZ and I will throw a bone of praise" type of thing. Its like "what have you done for me lately". She wants me to "spend more time with the kids". Hey, i want to as well, but I need to get home after 9 hours work and 2 hours commute and work some more on investing and on learning new skills to keep up and be marketable. I don't have all the time in the world.
> 
> I'll look at the links.



Sad face. Love languages. If it turns out hers is acts of service, it will make sense. BUT you might also need to do some reading on effective limit setting, not accepting quid pro quo from your wife.

Good luck.


----------



## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> OK, I just saw this post after your other ones. Too bad, I didn't see this earlier.
> 
> I give her affection and love. Could I give "more"? Sure... but I do as much as I can. Could she give me love and appreciation? Yes. She seems to think that focusing love on the kids will somehow transfer to me. Yes, it makes me happy, but I need some love too.


Watch out for the needy vibe which kills attraction and love.


----------



## nirvana

intheory said:


> I admire your financial acumen, I really do.
> 
> I probably couldn't be with someone like you because I couldn't be that disciplined. Are you in the slightest bit "miserly"; or are you just really savvy?
> 
> If you have been a grump over the years, guilting your wife over spending money; she might have withdrawn from you a bit. Or even be a bit in dread of your financial disapproval.
> 
> You have given her a material life that most people dream of, and that is very admirable.
> 
> I personally would rather live in a $150,000 house and drive economy cars and share more fun and happiness; than always be looking to save money and get far ahead.
> 
> I'm only saying this because maybe you and your wife aren't on the same page on this. Did she tell you that she wanted all these nice things? Did she ever indicate over the years that she felt she wasn't close to you?
> 
> I think she should be grateful. You have done a lot for her and your kids. You sound kind of strict and stern. Maybe it's not easy to get "ooey gooey" and affectionate with you? How would you like her appreciation of you to be shown?
> 
> Even though her paycheck is paltry, compared to yours; it's the fruit of her labor. It means a lot to her.
> 
> I'm curious about your avatar and username; doesn't that belief system advocate getting over attachment to the material world.
> 
> Excuse me if I'm completely wrong about that. I don't know a whole lot about Buddhism.


Thanks. You've probably done more than my wife! 

I don't think I am miserly. Like I said, we got her cars when she needed them. I spent money on her Masters degree and bought her a car to commute. Those were valid purchases so it is okay to spend on them. I don't like making wasteful expenses because in the end, you have to suffer somewhere and you won't be able to buy something that you really need. I think that is being savvy, do you agree or not?

I might have been a bit of a grump, so you are most likely right there. But my intentions were good, I could have done things differently in some cases.

My wife would hate me if I made her live in a $150k house when her friends were all in $500k houses. A $150k house here in my city is in the ghettos with bad schools and it would drive her nuts. She would complain about it every day and compare me with some friend's husband who bought a $600k house. She has done this in the past about other things - compared me with someone else. Now that she has a nice house, she is complaining about other things like how I am "on the computer" all the time. I am working on things, not idle surfing.

I think I was strict and stern but I have loosened up a lot in the past many years. I have no problem admitting it. I wish life was easy and I wish I had made some better decisions. That said, it is not hard to get ooey-gooey with me. It is easy to melt me and make me do stuff, but I can't stand getting an attitude and ingratitude.

It doesn't matter to me how much she makes. Even if she was making 30k, I would be happy for her. I want her to be happy and successful in her job.

In case you didn't realize, I am Indian, and I am a Hindu (not Buddhist). I realize Americans are exposed more to Buddhism. The avatar is a symbol for "Om" which is a holy sound in Hinduism.


----------



## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> Thanks. You've probably done more than my wife!
> 
> I don't think I am miserly. Like I said, we got her cars when she needed them. I spent money on her Masters degree and bought her a car to commute. Those were valid purchases so it is okay to spend on them. I don't like making wasteful expenses because in the end, you have to suffer somewhere and you won't be able to buy something that you really need. I think that is being savvy, do you agree or not?
> 
> I might have been a bit of a grump, so you are most likely right there. But my intentions were good, I could have done things differently in some cases.
> 
> My wife would hate me if I made her live in a $150k house when her friends were all in $500k houses. A $150k house here in my city is in the ghettos with bad schools and it would drive her nuts. She would complain about it every day and compare me with some friend's husband who bought a $600k house.


Oh Oh. Any chance you are married to an entitled princess? That is Not Good.


----------



## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> Watch out for the needy vibe which kills attraction and love.


Good point. Which is why I have this conflict.
I don't tell her anymore that I would like to be appreciated. It just bugs me though that all she does is complain and compare and not be happy about what she does have.


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## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> Oh Oh. Any chance you are married to an entitled princess? That is Not Good.


Her daddy did spoil her a lot growing up. He is the type who will say anything just so that you like him. He will not tell you the truth if you ask him because it may make him unpopular. 

In the last few years, this image has shattered because an unethical person cannot shine forever. Just this morning, she called me and said something things about how he did not really care about her other than sweet words.


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## Yeswecan

nirvana said:


> OK, I just saw this post after your other ones. Too bad, I didn't see this earlier.
> 
> I give her affection and love. Could I give "more"? Sure... but I do as much as I can. Could she give me love and appreciation? Yes. She seems to think that focusing love on the kids will somehow transfer to me. Yes, it makes me happy, but I need some love too.
> 
> So what did you do that made things change? Did she appreciate it make you happy or is it just a one way thing where she is happier but you are the same?


No sir, showing love to the kids does not transfer to you. You are to be #1 on her list. Kids to follow. Happy parents lead to happy kids. 

It appears for many years this has been her life and will take time for things to change? In other words, when I finally understood that I was a great provider and father(my W always told me this) but was missing the affection part with my W I knew it would take a long time to get it right. She even wondered if I would still be this new and improved me six months after I made the correct changes. Let me say I still keep at because my W is very appreciative of me, plenty of affection and caring. I simply made my W the first person in my life. She reciprocated. 

Things I did that helped:

-Flowers....for not good reason. Just bring them home unexpected.
-Notes of affection and appreciation for what she does do during the day.
-Simple things like opening the door for her. Open the car door for her.
-Always ask if she needs something
-Openly affectionate.

My W reciprocates(except the flowers. I don't need those). My W was always a wonderful mother and W. Now she is 10x. She is appreciative and has no issue showing it.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> Her daddy did spoil her a lot growing up. He is the type who will say anything just so that you like him. He will not tell you the truth if you ask him because it may make him unpopular.


No offense intended, but it sounds like her entire focus is on material things. And you have enabled that.

Is she an entitled princess NOW with YOU?


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## nirvana

Thanks all, the last few posts from you all have been very helpful. I will reply to all, but a little later!


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## Yeswecan

nirvana said:


> Her daddy did spoil her a lot growing up. He is the type who will say anything just so that you like him. He will not tell you the truth if you ask him because it may make him unpopular.
> 
> In the last few years, this image has shattered because an unethical person cannot shine forever. Just this morning, she called me and said something things about how he did not really care about her other than sweet words.


Very hard to overcome the this. Some call it "buying the princess." Buying the love from ones child backfires eventually. As seen here because your W has seen past the purchasing of her love with material items. Dad is not the shining star any longer. Most times this leads to the feeling of entitlement. Therefore, no matter how hard you worked she is entitled to it and appreciation is lacking. 


Read "No More Mr. Nice Guy." http://www.drglover.com/no-more-mr-nice-guy/the-book.html


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## nirvana

Yeswecan said:


> Yes, you nailed it exactly.
> 
> It appears to me you did not read my 1st post in your thread. But that is ok. You may cherry pick what works for you.


I am sorry man, you are right. I hadn't seen your first post earlier, and hence our miscommunication.


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## Yeswecan

nirvana said:


> I am sorry man, you are right. I hadn't seen your first post earlier, and hence our miscommunication.


No worries sir. It appears you have your life together and made something of yourself even at times when the color of your skin precluded you for consideration of higher job position and pay. I salute your resolve in making it work for all involved in your family.


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## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> I forget that this is the case in much of the country. Where I am, tons of my colleagues are Indian, and not just the ones who live in India!


Yes, I am told that things are good for Indians in places like the Bay Area where it is "acceptable" for Indians to be in client facing roles at senior levels. Here where I live, it is not as much. My manager at a previous company would get another junior Caucasian guy to accompany him to client meetings which I assume is to put forth an "acceptable" face to the client. Then he would come back and email me the list of things that the client wanted. Then complain that some things were not matching. 
Instead he could just invite me to those meetings and have the client tell me what they wanted. No, he never would do that. I am the one with an MBA from a top 3 school while the junior guy had just 5 years of total work experience. This is the case not just for me, but with almost all Indians I know. Very very few manage to slip through the obstacles and go up.

My previous company, I applied for a Director position. I was called in, and they liked me and then gave me an offer for... Sr Manager. I was outraged, but had to accept because the manager above was giving me a hard time (later I found out that he messed up with that client and was facing the heat) so I had to take it. They hired a Caucasian guy with 3 years less experience than me as Director on the same date as me. Ok, maybe coincidence? Then 1.5 months later, they hired a 45+ Indian guy and a 31 year old Caucasian guy. Guess what designations? The Indian guy is Sr Manager and the Caucasian as Director. The same thing happened again! I asked the Indian guy if he had applied to a Director role and he said yes. The Indian guy was so sharp and knowledgeable that he could have been VP. I was not in a position to negotiate else I would have told them to take a hike. The 31 year old guy turned out to be a child in a man's body and played Lego at work. Openly, and in front of the CEO too! He made a Moon rover, a Taj Mahal all that. He did that for 1.5 years until the company's financial situation got bad in Oct last year and a bunch of us got laid off including me. My product was kicking ass but they decided to shelve it because it was new, my bad luck. If the company had done well for another year, I am sure I would been promoted - oh well. Such is life.

Anyway, just wanted to give examples. It's my fault that I did not just move to the Bay Area where there are a lot of opportunities and if you work hard, you will (most likely) shine unlike here where these issues push you down.


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## NobodySpecial

MOve to NE!


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## nirvana

skype said:


> Nirvana, you remind me a lot of my father. He was the child of immigrants, and he was completely focused on monetary success, on "making it," and on proving to everyone that he could achieve his goals.
> 
> He squeezed every nickel until it squeaked. We three children did not have to take out a loan for college, and he was very proud of that. BUT, I did not appreciate his efforts because all he ever talked about with me was how many A's I got. Was my major going to lead to a well-paying job? It was all about him and how others perceived him.
> 
> I wanted so badly for him to love me no matter what grades I got. Maybe your wife wants you to listen to her. Maybe she wants to go on a date where you don't calculate the cost down to the last penny. Maybe she will appreciate you once you start appreciating her for who she is rather than seeing her as an appendage that you have to support.


ha! you describe me pretty well! First generation immigrants are generally more careful with money. And also have a higher standard of life because they save up. I did an MBA from a top school paying about $100k for it through my own earnings and with no loans, so I am proud of that too! Similar to your dad.

Where I differ from your dad is that I am not trying to prove anything to others. A lot of Indians around me want to prove things to others so I know what you mean. I am trying to reach my potential that I think I have in my mind. I also want my kids to go to good colleges and not have to worry about loans which is why I am investing for them. I monitor their school and focus them to get A's in class, but will love them regardless of their grades. I care very little about how others perceive me in areas which don't matter. Problem is that my wife does, many women are like that as they are more social. I keep telling her to focus on what she should do rather than what she needs to do to compete with someone else.

You are right about needing to go on dates, but right now, it is not much about money for me as we are comfortable. I still don't waste, but I know what you mean. 

I don't consider her to be an appendage. The problem was the other way around. She is appreciated by me, but I don't feel appreciated by her.


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## WonkyNinja

nirvana said:


> She said she wanted a treadmill. I started to look for deals and the right one to get. Those are expensive ($600-700) and not much fun running in the basement. Summer is here, so it is much better to be out running. She said she wanted a bicycle, and those are cheap, but there is no space in the garage to put one. We also have kids bikes.


$500K house and there isn't space in the garage for a bike? Serously? 
Have you heard of hooks? You can screw two into the wall and hang the bike up by the wheels.



> Well, maybe there is nothing much I can do, I just have to do what is right and let people criticize. If I had blown up our savings on unwanted things to please others, we would be in a precarious financial position and she would have been FORCED to work. Now she works because she wants to. Big difference.


Who decides what is right? If it isn't a joint decision then there's your problem.


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## skype

Have you read _His Needs, Her Needs_ by Willard Harley? Admiration is one of the top needs for men in a marriage. It may help to identify what your wife's top needs are, and discuss with her how you feel when she does not address your need for appreciation. You could both try to do one thing each day to recognize and fulfill each other's needs.


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## nirvana

WonkyNinja said:


> $500K house and there isn't space in the garage for a bike? Serously?
> Have you heard of hooks? You can screw two into the wall and hang the bike up by the wheels.


Sure I have, but she will make me get the bike up and down every time. We have 2 cars in there and mine is a new one so I don't want it getting scratched. The kids have their own bikes. Besides that, there's the lawn mower, rakes and all that junk along with the trash bin and tool rack.



> Who decides what is right? If it isn't a joint decision then there's your problem.


Depends. In financial matters, I decide because I know more. In matters of health and fashion and kids, she decides because she knows more.

If I let her have her way all the time and she makes bad decisions, she will then look to me to fix it. By then it will be too late. It is easy to give advice like this, but this is not very practical. I know of a couple here who did this. The husband was very popular with his wife and with the other ladies because he said yes to everything and bought her a lot of stuff. Now after 10 years they are in financial hell and still stuck in their townhouse which is underwater.

No thanks. I could do with less appreciation, but not his kind of situation. If a woman cannot appreciate this, then too bad for her.


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## nirvana

skype said:


> Have you read _His Needs, Her Needs_ by Willard Harley? Admiration is one of the top needs for men in a marriage. It may help to identify what your wife's top needs are, and discuss with her how you feel when she does not address your need for appreciation. You could both try to do one thing each day to recognize and fulfill each other's needs.


I have heard about it being mentioned here, but not read it. I will do so. What I need is easy, free of cost and does not take much time. If someone holds back, then it smells of manipulation. Anyway, I will take a look at the book, thanks for recommending.


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## Cynthia

You should each have money that you can spend without discussing with the other spouse. I cannot imagine my husband telling me couldn't have a bicycle, if we had the money for it. Your reasons sound controlling to me.


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## WonkyNinja

nirvana said:


> She wants me to "spend more time with the kids". Hey, i want to as well, but I need to get home after 9 hours work and 2 hours commute and work some more on investing and on learning new skills to keep up and be marketable. I don't have all the time in the world.


I think you need to seriously reassess your priorities here. You've told us all of your financial successes and now you don't have time to "spend more time with the kids" because you have to work on investing every night? What's the point of it all?

In a few years you may find that your children give you all the time that you are giving them now (i.e. very little) and then you'll be alone to work on your investments.

Your relationship with your children should be your biggest investment in life and at the moment you don't seem to prioritize contributing to that one.

What she's asking there isn't unreasonable and it isn't for herself. It's for you and your kids.


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## aine

nirvana said:


> We have been married for about 15 years. For 14 years, she was stay at home and we have 2 kids. I worked and brought home the money and saved up enough that we have been able to buy new cars, a nice $500k single family house in a very good neighborhood and we are able to spend on what we life (within limit). I am saving for retirement and for kids' education. I invest money wisely and have no debt other than a new car I got (which I can pay off today) and our house which is 52% paid off after just 5 years.
> In summary, I am very responsible with money and we are secure mainly because of my efforts. She did not bring home money, but she does the cooking, used to do laundry (now I do it), and everything else inside the house. I do the lawn and all the outside work.
> 
> The problem is she does not appreciate anything I do. She always hints that she wants to be treated special "because she works". Hey, I work too, I have been for 15 years in stressful situations and making over 100k for a long time. She makes half my money. I told her that we reached a net worth milestone today and she listened. Then she got angry for some silly reason and started taunting me about it "what is the use of making the money, you don't spend it". If I spend it like a drunken sailor like some of our friends did, we would still be in an apartment/townhouse like they are.
> 
> She is very ungrateful. I am not sure what else I can do. A little bit of appreciation would make me feel good as a man and love her more. Now I feel used.



Many men fall into the trap of believing that if they earn enough and set up their families to have all the trappings then that is all there is to marriage. Although this is very important aspect and many men are driven by this need to ensure their families are well taken care of, they must also not forget to have a relationship with their wives and children. All the money in the world does not create emotional bonds, women nor children think like that. Sometimes the simplest things such as sitting down to share a pot of coffee is worth more than the expensive presents, cars, etc. I think you have lost focus as to why you married in the first place and have lost that connection to your wife. Wives appreciate what their husband do generally but if you spent more time prioritizing work to earn lots of money, then work and the money becomes something that is replacing her (in her mind), this leads to resentment. What is required is a balancing act, but you have to make time for your wife and family.


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## nirvana

CynthiaDe said:


> You should each have money that you can spend without discussing with the other spouse. I cannot imagine my husband telling me couldn't have a bicycle, if we had the money for it. Your reasons sound controlling to me.


We don't have separate accounts, that would be silly. We have common accounts and use the same checkbook and credit cards. That is the way we Easterners are. You will find this with almost all Indians, Chinese, Japanese etc where family structures are strong.

My wife buys the stuff she wants like jackets, shoes, makeup etc without asking me and I don't scrutinize what she does. However, a bike is a big (bigger) purchase and we don't have space in the garage. I bought a new car in Dec. I consulted my wife before that and made sure she was okay. I didn't just show up with a new car and say "surprise!".

I disagree that I am "controlling". This is an easy term that some women like to throw around loosely. This comes down to cultural differences. You think I am controlling and I think you are don't care about what your spouse thinks (which could lead to divorce).


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## nirvana

WonkyNinja said:


> I think you need to seriously reassess your priorities here. You've told us all of your financial successes and now you don't have time to "spend more time with the kids" because you have to work on investing every night? What's the point of it all?
> 
> In a few years you may find that your children give you all the time that you are giving them now (i.e. very little) and then you'll be alone to work on your investments.
> 
> Your relationship with your children should be your biggest investment in life and at the moment you don't seem to prioritize contributing to that one.
> 
> What she's asking there isn't unreasonable and it isn't for herself. It's for you and your kids.


Life is hard, isn't it? There are no easy answers to any of this. If I had not worked, then we would be financially unstable and maybe not have a nice house or even lose it. Would that have been better? 
Now that we are financially well off, I hear "yes, you have money, but you don't have time for the kids". People will find a reason to complain. 
I wish the day had 50 hours!


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## nirvana

Okay. I think the discussion is going off topic. My initial post was that there was no appreciation for my contributions to the household. I believe we both contribute equally. She does and did a great job with the kids and I did a great job in making it happen financially. 

But now I am being told by many here that my contributions are still not enough and that I need to do more and more and more. I have only 24 hours in a day and I cannot quit my job to spend time with the kids all the time. 

Basically you cannot win. If I had taken the other option, I would have still heard complaints and I would not have forgiven myself for doing something I did not believe in. So that would have been the worse option.

Anyway, maybe the appreciation will come in time. When I am 75 and about to die. Or maybe never at all. But at least I will rest assured that I did my best for my family.


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## nirvana

aine said:


> Many men fall into the trap of believing that if they earn enough and set up their families to have all the trappings then that is all there is to marriage. Although this is very important aspect and many men are driven by this need to ensure their families are well taken care of, they must also not forget to have a relationship with their wives and children. All the money in the world does not create emotional bonds, women nor children think like that. Sometimes the simplest things such as sitting down to share a pot of coffee is worth more than the expensive presents, cars, etc. I think you have lost focus as to why you married in the first place and have lost that connection to your wife. Wives appreciate what their husband do generally but if you spent more time prioritizing work to earn lots of money, then work and the money becomes something that is replacing her (in her mind), this leads to resentment. What is required is a balancing act, but you have to make time for your wife and family.



I do make time for family. After MBA, I could have taken a traveling consulting job that paid more. I did not because I wanted to see my kids grow up and be with my wife. I come back home and make her coffee every evening. We go for walks. We watch movies at home on Saturday nights.

I cannot put down all that I do in these posts so you probably think that that is all I do and many here are just displaying outrage instead of trying to help.

I am exhausted. If I am asked to do even more and more, I'd say I can do without those few words that I am hoping to hear.


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## Pluto2

OP,
You are believing what you want to, and hearing what you like. That's your right.

My ex told me once I should consider myself lucky that he came home every night, because he knew men that didn't.

Did I mention he was my ex......


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## Cynthia

nirvana said:


> We don't have separate accounts, that would be silly. We have common accounts and use the same checkbook and credit cards. That is the way we Easterners are. You will find this with almost all Indians, Chinese, Japanese etc where family structures are strong.


I didn't say you should separate your accounts. I said you should have money that you can spend without consulting the other spouse. Considering the amount of money that you say you have, a bike should not be a big deal. You don't want her to have a bike, because you find it inconvenient for you, which sounds like you are more concerned with your own convenience than you are with your wife's feelings.


nirvana said:


> My wife buys the stuff she wants like jackets, shoes, makeup etc without asking me and I don't scrutinize what she does. However, a bike is a big (bigger) purchase and we don't have space in the garage. I bought a new car in Dec. I consulted my wife before that and made sure she was okay. I didn't just show up with a new car and say "surprise!".


A bicycle and a car are not comparable.



nirvana said:


> I disagree that I am "controlling". This is an easy term that some women like to throw around loosely. This comes down to cultural differences. You think I am controlling and I think you are don't care about what your spouse thinks (which could lead to divorce).


I didn't say you were generally controlling, but you controlling whether or not she is allowed to purchase a bicycle, despite the fact that you can easily afford it, is controlling. I don't know if you are overall controlling or not, but it does appear to be possible based on the things you have posted on this thread. You certainly are in control of the money. You decide what she can spend money on or not. How is that not controlling, when you are controlling the money?
Your wife sounds frustrated. You asked for help. Now we seem to be getting to the bottom of what is going on and you change the subject to not caring about what you think and how that could lead to divorce. I'm just trying to see things from your wife's point of view. If this is how you respond to your wife, then your marriage really is in trouble and it's not because your wife doesn't care what you think.


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## WonkyNinja

nirvana said:


> Life is hard, isn't it? There are no easy answers to any of this. If I had not worked, then we would be financially unstable and maybe not have a nice house or even lose it. Would that have been better?
> Now that we are financially well off, I hear "yes, you have money, but you don't have time for the kids". People will find a reason to complain.
> I wish the day had 50 hours!


If you ask anyone who deals with dying people I don't believe you will find one who heard the last words "I wish I had spent more time at the office and had a bigger house". 

Dying regrets usually involve what the person missed personally.

Maybe your investing doesn't need to be a 2 hour per night task? Maybe you could trust some of it to an analyst and just monitor them, say weekly? 

No one is telling you that you need to do more and more but I think you and your family will be happier if you find a more even balance in life. You need to be there with your family not just for them. Then you may find that you see a big change in your wife as well.

Children grow up extremely quickly and it's very easy to miss out as they grow to be independent self-confidant adults.

That extra bedroom in the house won't be worth **** if you are not close enough to your children that they want to come and stay with their own children in a few years time. These are formative years and you are their role model. If you value other priorities above "spending time with them" then you will find that you reap what you sow.


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## Cynthia

nirvana said:


> My wife buys the stuff she wants like jackets, shoes, makeup etc without asking me and I don't scrutinize what she does. However, a bike is a big (bigger) purchase and we don't have space in the garage. I bought a new car in Dec. I consulted my wife before that and made sure she was okay. I didn't just show up with a new car and say "surprise!".


The clothes, makeup etc. that your wife buys makes her more attractive to you, therefore, this is of great benefit to you. It also makes you look good to have a beautiful wife on your arm. Win, win for you. The bike, otoh, is an inconvenience to you, therefore you won't let her have it and then turn it around to how it's all about you.


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## Brandy905

You can always make money, you can never buy time!


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## EnjoliWoman

Buy the bikes, install pullys in the ceiling so she can raise and lower the bike hooks with no real trouble. If you have to back out a car to do so, so be it.

And the point about women being embarrassed by praise because we are raised to put everyone else first and not fish for compliments is dead on, but she likes them so keep it up. 

I do think you need some date nights now that the kids are old enough to be by themselves for a bit. It can be chinese takeout eaten in the park - it's about couple time, not money. Walk and hold hands after dinner or pillow talk/cuddle time to connect as well.

During one of these times when it's just you two, you can tell her (and you don't have to look like a needy wuss if you don't whine about it) in a straightforward way: "Hon, I hope I tell you often enough how much I appreciate your wonderful cooking, the things you do for the boys, the way you decorate the house, everything you do to make our home a HOME and all of us a FAMILY. But I really need to hear from you how much you appreciate my working in an unhappy job, my struggles to make sure we are set financially and all that I do to make sure our kids can graduate from college debt free. I want to know you appreciate me as much as I appreciate you. And if I haven't made sure you DO feel that way, please tell me."


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> Okay. I think the discussion is going off topic. My initial post was that there was no appreciation for my contributions to the household. I believe we both contribute equally. She does and did a great job with the kids and I did a great job in making it happen financially.
> 
> But now I am being told by many here that my contributions are still not enough and that I need to do more and more and more. I have only 24 hours in a day and I cannot quit my job to spend time with the kids all the time.


I think posters' focus is wrong. What does your WIFE want? And how can you work WITH her to help her get some of what she wants? If she wants you to spend more time with the family, "sorry can't" is YOUR answer. What ELSE can you answer? You can answer, well I hear you honey. You want me to spend more time with the kids. Take out a piece of paper. If I do that, I will see a drop in this investment income. I would expect to lose this bonus income. What would you like to to cut back on? Should we get a smaller house? Move to a cheaper neighborhood. Ger her INVOLVED in the decision so it is not just you saying no and her saying I want it all and I want it now.


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## NobodySpecial

EnjoliWoman said:


> Buy the bikes, install pullys in the ceiling so she can raise and lower the bike hooks with no real trouble. If you have to back out a car to do so, so be it.


I think this is bad advice. It is not about the bike. It is about them not figuring out how to make decisions TOGETHER.


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## EnjoliWoman

NobodySpecial said:


> I think this is bad advice. It is not about the bike. It is about them not figuring out how to make decisions TOGETHER.


But she DOES have input. She wanted the bikes but his only argument was that there wasn't room to store them in the garage. He said if they installed wheel hooks, she'd want him to get the bike down for her. If that's his only objection, I just solved the problem. The bike thing was never about making decisions together.

Then they could ride through the neighborhood together. Family time/couple time/exercise - all great things. He doesn't seem to have any loss of power in controlling the finances and has no issues with saying "no", nor does he seem to withhold the niceties, living in a 500K house and having two relatively new cars. So he's not stingy and she's not shopaholic. Decisions together isn't what he has a problem with; in fact it sounds like they are happy with their arrangement except he needs to hear she appreciates it. 

OPs love language is obviously words of affirmation. His wife doesn't know that. I think they'd benefit greatly from reading it together.

OH, and the boys should mow the grass lest they grow up to feel privileged with all of their advantages.


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## NobodySpecial

EnjoliWoman said:


> But she DOES have input. She wanted the bikes but his only argument was that there wasn't room to store them in the garage. He said if they installed wheel hooks, she'd want him to get the bike down for her. If that's his only objection, I just solved the problem. *The bike thing was never about making decisions together.*


That is true enough. It should have been. He should not get to dictate no bike. She should not get to dictate that he has to get it down, and he should not have to solve her problems about bike location and relocation. 

And to be completely fair, we have NO IDEA from her perspective the idea that he makes the financial choices bothers her, if at all. When asked what bothers her, he consistently says wanting more family time.


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## WandaJ

I have noticed that you see world in extremes - "if you didn't work so much ,or watch money so much, you would go bankrupt" . No. not neccessary. There is a whole difference between squezing every penny and living your life in the office, and spending like crazy. it is all about balance. 

Or the other "if I let her do what she wants all the time, we would be in trouble". Again, - why all the time? (I omit that you "let" her do things, like she is your child) .Nobody asks you to let her go crazy in Las Vegas with family money. But let the woman buy the damn bike. if she was SAHM until now, that's a great way to excercise. Same treadmil. i do excercice much more since I got (for my birthday, from my husband, huh!) eliptical trainer. I look better, I feel better.

Financial security is VERY importnat. You've got A for that one. Now, how about emotional needs in your marriage? Do you want someone to enjoy your retirement with? or will you count money by yourself?
Are you one of those guys with millions in the bank who grab free ketchup in MacDonalds?..


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## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> That is true enough. It should have been. He should not get to dictate no bike. She should not get to dictate that he has to get it down, and he should not have to solve her problems about bike location and relocation.
> 
> And to be completely fair, we have NO IDEA from her perspective the idea that he makes the financial choices bothers her, if at all. When asked what bothers her, he consistently says wanting more family time.


A lot of people here (mostly women) jumped to conclusions to cast me as a villain. Interesting...

Anyway, she does not want to manage our money. I just said we didn't have no space, I didn't say "no bike". At another time, she said she wanted a bike again and I didn't say anything. Then she didn't ask after that.

She wants me to "spend more time with kids" but I am busy and need to make some career moves, so I will never be able to satisfy her on that.


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## Pluto2

or your kids


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## GTdad

I don't know how useful it is to guilt a person for having to make a living. Other than stay-at-home parents, I imagine most of us wish they could spend more time with their kids and at times feel kind of crappy about it. It motivates us to make the time we do spend with them count.

But most of us need to work. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to be appreciated for what we bring to the table.


----------



## nirvana

I disagree, so let's agree to disagree.
Thanks for your concern, but my marriage isn't in trouble. I would just like to make it better. I know I can always improve (and so can she), but what you say believe is trying to fix something that isn't broken.



CynthiaDe said:


> I didn't say you should separate your accounts. I said you should have money that you can spend without consulting the other spouse. Considering the amount of money that you say you have, a bike should not be a big deal. You don't want her to have a bike, because you find it inconvenient for you, which sounds like you are more concerned with your own convenience than you are with your wife's feelings.
> 
> A bicycle and a car are not comparable.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say you were generally controlling, but you controlling whether or not she is allowed to purchase a bicycle, despite the fact that you can easily afford it, is controlling. I don't know if you are overall controlling or not, but it does appear to be possible based on the things you have posted on this thread. You certainly are in control of the money. You decide what she can spend money on or not. How is that not controlling, when you are controlling the money?
> Your wife sounds frustrated. You asked for help. Now we seem to be getting to the bottom of what is going on and you change the subject to not caring about what you think and how that could lead to divorce. I'm just trying to see things from your wife's point of view. If this is how you respond to your wife, then your marriage really is in trouble and it's not because your wife doesn't care what you think.


----------



## nirvana

GTdad said:


> I don't know how useful it is to guilt a person for having to make a living. Other than stay-at-home parents, I imagine most of us wish they could spend more time with their kids and at times feel kind of crappy about it. It motivates us to make the time we do spend with them count.
> 
> But most of us need to work. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to be appreciated for what we bring to the table.


GT, you or I will never be able to convince some people. If I had a rich uncle funding me, I would spend all my time with my wife and kids. Maybe not really because I need to be intellectually stimulated, but you get the idea. I have a friend who is very rich through his family, and he works when he feels like on short contract jobs, goes off to China or Europe on 2 week vacations with family, and enjoys life. I don't have that kind of dough.

Many women here object to SAHMs being made to feel guilty for not working, but they have no problems doing the same to men!

GT, thanks for your post. I don't think anyone will "like" your post because it goes against their narrative, but I will!


----------



## nirvana

WonkyNinja said:


> If you ask anyone who deals with dying people I don't believe you will find one who heard the last words "I wish I had spent more time at the office and had a bigger house".
> 
> Dying regrets usually involve what the person missed personally.
> 
> Maybe your investing doesn't need to be a 2 hour per night task? Maybe you could trust some of it to an analyst and just monitor them, say weekly?
> 
> No one is telling you that you need to do more and more but I think you and your family will be happier if you find a more even balance in life. You need to be there with your family not just for them. Then you may find that you see a big change in your wife as well.
> 
> Children grow up extremely quickly and it's very easy to miss out as they grow to be independent self-confidant adults.
> 
> That extra bedroom in the house won't be worth **** if you are not close enough to your children that they want to come and stay with their own children in a few years time. These are formative years and you are their role model. If you value other priorities above "spending time with them" then you will find that you reap what you sow.


Yes, but conversely, if you don't spend time in the office, you die on the streets. I don't want to spend much time in the office, but I have to. My wife didn't have to because I did it so she didn't have to. That is easy to understand, right?

No, my investing work isn't 2 hours. But my commute is. Then I need to unwind a bit and the time window that I am there and the kids are awake is about an hour. Remember they have homework too which I help out with in math/science.

I know you mean well, but I am afraid your suggestions are not very practical in the world we live in.

The kids are fine. They have no issue with me and I go to all their events. I take my son to bball and soccer every time. 

The issue is that my wife never expresses appreciation. How come none of you women have ever addressed that? In your view, it's always the man's fault? Maybe she is manipulating me to do more and more and more. Have you thought of that?


----------



## nirvana

CynthiaDe said:


> The clothes, makeup etc. that your wife buys makes her more attractive to you, therefore, this is of great benefit to you. It also makes you look good to have a beautiful wife on your arm. Win, win for you. The bike, otoh, is an inconvenience to you, therefore you won't let her have it and then turn it around to how it's all about you.


ha!
That's the line of logic my wife uses as well. Must be a woman thing. 
Another example.
She just started work and has been doing it for about 3 months in her new company. Doing well. I suggested some things she could learn or get into so she could expand her skillset and rise up. I wish I had a mentor, I had none. After many years, I can help her out. Her response? "Sure! Give me more things to do".
:rofl:
So I decided to let her make her own mistakes and learn the hard way.

Her response is just like your reply above.


----------



## nirvana

EnjoliWoman said:


> Buy the bikes, install pullys in the ceiling so she can raise and lower the bike hooks with no real trouble. If you have to back out a car to do so, so be it.
> 
> And the point about women being embarrassed by praise because we are raised to put everyone else first and not fish for compliments is dead on, but she likes them so keep it up.
> 
> I do think you need some date nights now that the kids are old enough to be by themselves for a bit. It can be chinese takeout eaten in the park - it's about couple time, not money. Walk and hold hands after dinner or pillow talk/cuddle time to connect as well.
> 
> During one of these times when it's just you two, you can tell her (and you don't have to look like a needy wuss if you don't whine about it) in a straightforward way: "Hon, I hope I tell you often enough how much I appreciate your wonderful cooking, the things you do for the boys, the way you decorate the house, everything you do to make our home a HOME and all of us a FAMILY. But I really need to hear from you how much you appreciate my working in an unhappy job, my struggles to make sure we are set financially and all that I do to make sure our kids can graduate from college debt free. I want to know you appreciate me as much as I appreciate you. And if I haven't made sure you DO feel that way, please tell me."


Good insight about the compliments, I will continue.

Yes, we need to do date nights. The problem is where to put the kids. Our relatives are not in the same city. We can drop them off with friends for sure. It's my fault, I need to push this through. Hurdle is she will keep complaining that she misses the kids and keep calling to see if they are okay and ruin the day for me. And she will claim credit that she did this because she is a good mom and how I won't understand. Former SAHMs I tell you.

As for the bikes, let me think about it a bit. Maybe I can clear out the junk in the garage and make space. I'll need to look. As I said, it's not about money. I can easily spend the $500 on 2 bikes. But I want them to be used, not just dumped in a corner after the fad passes.

Thanks for your other suggestions, I will try to do it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> A lot of people here (mostly women) jumped to conclusions to cast me as a villain. Interesting...
> 
> Anyway, she does not want to manage our money. I just said we didn't have no space, I didn't say "no bike". At another time, she said she wanted a bike again and I didn't say anything. Then she didn't ask after that.
> 
> She wants me to "spend more time with kids" but *I am busy* and *need to make some career moves*, so I will never be able to satisfy her on that.


Alright. I will try one more time. Wrt the bolded. Do you? 

My brother's wife complained to their marriage counselor that he was never home, that he never spent time with the family. Brother said, I have No Problem being home WAY more. But in order to do that, I cannot make double six figures. What is it going to be? He never heard her complain about his being away again. Maybe this is not the best illustrative example.

The point I am trying to make is that you are making decisions and proclamations. You can't. You can't based on YOUR assumptions to me. Challenge whether she shares your assumptions.

In any event, you need to find out why SHE doesn't appreciate you. And listing all the things YOU think are worthy will not find it.


----------



## nirvana

EnjoliWoman said:


> But she DOES have input. She wanted the bikes but his only argument was that there wasn't room to store them in the garage. He said if they installed wheel hooks, she'd want him to get the bike down for her. If that's his only objection, I just solved the problem. The bike thing was never about making decisions together.
> 
> Then they could ride through the neighborhood together. Family time/couple time/exercise - all great things. He doesn't seem to have any loss of power in controlling the finances and has no issues with saying "no", nor does he seem to withhold the niceties, living in a 500K house and having two relatively new cars. So he's not stingy and she's not shopaholic. Decisions together isn't what he has a problem with; in fact it sounds like they are happy with their arrangement except he needs to hear she appreciates it.
> 
> OPs love language is obviously words of affirmation. His wife doesn't know that. I think they'd benefit greatly from reading it together.
> 
> OH, and the boys should mow the grass lest they grow up to feel privileged with all of their advantages.


Enjoli is one of the few posters here who actually understands me and isn't trying to trample me under some sort of ultra-feminist agenda by rushing into judgements without knowing the facts. You got everything correct in the post here as far as facts go. Thank You!

My needs (wish) are simple. She just has to put an arm around me and say thank you for all you do for me/us and I appreciate the hardships you go through. A loving kiss would be most welcome. 

It's quick, it is cheap, it doesn't need any work. It just needs some heart. And it needs one to put aside one's ego.

My older one is 10 and I will get him to help out with yardwork soon. He does some things here and there. I want him to grow up to be able to do his own things, not just lazily outsource. My daughter is younger, so she still has some time. 

Now that summer is approaching, I'll explore the bicycle idea.


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## michzz

Iit may be a gender thing or it may be that your wife just entered the job market after 14 years staying home. But she seems to think she should get validation for her hard work, but you do not deserve that too?

In any case, congrats on making a good serious of financial decisions to secure your retirement years.

Sacrificing current fun and experiences has to be balanced with saving for the future.

If all you do is save for the future, what are you doing to live now?

I think you need to focus on the present for awhile if you have secured the future.


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## Pluto2

ultra-feminist agenda!

That's it


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## nirvana

michzz said:


> Iit may be a gender thing or it may be that your wife just entered the job market after 14 years staying home. But she seems to think she should get validation for her hard work, but you do not deserve that too?
> 
> In any case, congrats on making a good serious of financial decisions to secure your retirement years.
> 
> Sacrificing current fun and experiences has to be balanced with saving for the future.
> 
> If all you do is save for the future, what are you doing to live now?
> 
> I think you need to focus on the present for awhile if you have secured the future.


Agree with *everything *you say.
In hindsight, I think I went slightly overboard in the initial years and could have had more fun but hey, my childhood years were the same way, so I didn't have much idea about having fun. My parents were not particularly fun-loving. But it is hard to always walk exactly in the ideal straight path.

Also, in hindsight, I feel I made a mistake of telling her she could take her time in looking for a job post first baby. I was trying to be the nice understanding husband. After about 6 months, I should have told her that she should find a job and start her career and we could put the baby in daycare. I know the super-feminists here will go "who are you to tell her what to do?? It's her choice!!". I reject that. I should step up and correct my wife when she goes wrong and I want her to step up and tell me honestly when I mess up. That is tough love. How I frame my view is important though, I should not frame it like an order, but a strong view/advice. I will do the same to my kids, I don't care if they hate me for it at that time. They will appreciate it when they grow older.


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## WonkyNinja

michzz said:


> In any case, congrats on making a good serious of financial decisions to secure your retirement years.
> 
> Sacrificing current fun and experiences has to be balanced with saving for the future.
> 
> If all you do is save for the future, what are you doing to live now?
> 
> I think you need to focus on the present for awhile if you have secured the future.


:iagree:

Well said.

OP seems to have an attitude that he will go from where he is to destitute and starving if he eases up even slightly.


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## nirvana

WonkyNinja said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Well said.
> 
> OP seems to have an attitude that he will go from where he is to destitute and starving if he eases up even slightly.


Wrong.
I am saying that I need to watch our expenses otherwise we will end up not saving enough for kid's college and our retirement. I don't plan on letting my kids fend for themselves like many families here in the US do. 

About the bikes, it's not about the cost. It is about space. You don't seem to have read my posts where I give examples of how we spend money.

I just bought a BMW that I wanted, and some years ago, got her an SUV that she wanted. Does that suggest that I have not eased up?

michzz made a very good post.


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## lucy999

nirvana said:


> My needs (wish) are simple. She just has to put an arm around me and say thank you for all you do for me/us and I appreciate the hardships you go through. A loving kiss would be most welcome.
> 
> It's quick, it is cheap, it doesn't need any work. It just needs some heart. And it needs one to put aside one's ego.


I really think it's quite simple. You ease up just a bit and spend more time with her and the kids. Yes, I know. I've read this entire thread. You're a successful man, a busy man, and work hard. That is to be highly commended. 

If you do this, I bet you will soon see what you have written above. You need to give it to get it. And by 'give' I don't mean money or material possessions. I mean affection and time with your family.

With all due respect, you think in black and white. It's either all or nothing with you. You must find a happy medium.


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## tonygunner007

nirvana

I understand how you feel. Believe me i do. In this situation, you're supposed to be the hero. You work hard and earn enough for the family. Nice home. Nice car. Smarter decisions. She's supposed to see these things everyday except that she's not like you - a man. If she had a man's mind, she'd hug you everyday and remind you how grateful she is. 

But as a woman, she doesn't see logic. She sees emotion. Hard to understand, i know. Let me try breaking it down.

First thing first: don't take her behavior as face value. She do appreciate your position in her life, but as a woman, she sometimes speak "womanese" language. Being a man, it may be difficult to understand - you might even misinterpret it. Worst part is that she doesn't even know that you don't understand "womanese." - she doesn't even know it exists and i doubt you do.

You see! All the while, she was trying to communicate her needs to you - unfortunately, in "womanese". But being a "man" you couldn't get it and being a woman, she couldn't understand her mistakes.

If she was to speak "manese", she'd have said something like this... "Honey, i love the fact that you work so hard to provide for us. I'm very proud of you and you're my hero. But there is something I'm lacking. I need you to be more affectionate. I am a woman and as a woman, i need emotions to feel alive. when i say things like 'what is the use of making the money, you don't spend it?' I don't mean that you should actually spend all our money. I want you to do little things for me like buy me little gifts, take me out, tell me nice things, hold me, give me your full attention when I'm telling you about my day - even if what I'm saying makes no sense. Don't try advising me - or offering to fix the problem. Just listen. That's all i need. When i complain about not being made to feel special, all I'm saying is: Just hold 
me and tell me how special i am to you. I need to FEEL it. It's not about the LOGIC honey, it's about the emotion - how what you say and do make me feel. I need to feel cherished. If i don't, I'd feel resentment. It's not my fault. It's how the maker made me. Nevertheless honey, i love you and would never have asked for any better. You're the best."


----------



## altawa

nirvana said:


> Yes, but conversely, if you don't spend time in the office, you die on the streets. I don't want to spend much time in the office, but I have to. My wife didn't have to because I did it so she didn't have to. That is easy to understand, right?
> 
> No, my investing work isn't 2 hours. But my commute is. Then I need to unwind a bit and the time window that I am there and the kids are awake is about an hour. Remember they have homework too which I help out with in math/science.
> 
> I know you mean well, but I am afraid your suggestions are not very practical in the world we live in.
> 
> The kids are fine. They have no issue with me and I go to all their events. I take my son to bball and soccer every time.
> 
> The issue is that my wife never expresses appreciation. How come none of you women have ever addressed that? *In your view, it's always the man's fault?* Maybe she is manipulating me to do more and more and more. Have you thought of that?


I bolded the problem for you.


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## nirvana

I cannot believe that it's been 6 months since I started this thread so I thought I'd post an update.

A lot of things have happened, both good and bad in this time. If you have been following my other thread, you will have most of the details. In this time, my company started doing badly and was gradually laying off people. My job which provided 70% of the household income got shaky. My wife had started working a year ago, and there was a situation where a coworker would call her every day on the commute drive back home in the evening "to chat/gossip". After watching for some time, I talked to her about it and looks like she's dealt with the situation. Right after that, I lost my job in September. I had been looking for a new/better job since April without any luck. Many interviews, many rounds, and nothing seemed to work. I was in a panic. We went to the local Hindu temple and I prayed for some luck. I very rarely ask for anything when I pray, but this time I did. And lo! I started to get call after call! The HR people from these companies would like me and pass me on to the manager to screen. They would like me and call me into the office to meet the team. They would like me and pass me on to the top management to do a final round. I ended up with 3 very lucrative offers paying me as much as 27% more than my previous job. I ended up taking the one that made me 20% more because the work and company was better in my view. Even after all of this, I got many calls asking if I was interested and I had to decline calls. 

My wife has seen me through my struggles at work and I feel had adopted a very low opinion of me. It's hard for an Indian guy to make it without patronage and I had made some bad decisions about where I would work and that led to more and more bad decisions. I had gotten laid off 3 times over 15 years, none of them my fault, I was part of mass layoffs. Her friends would gloat about their husbands success all the time. Of course, reality was different, I would talk to he husbands and they would say they got re-assigned to a different group but their wives would advertise it as if he got promoted. Materially, we had all that others at our level had but my wife still had a low opinion and would ask me why I got laid off and not this other guy. She's been working for only 1 year so she doesn't understand that I cannot fully control my destiny. It depends on my boss, the company, the economy etc. She was used to controlling everything being a SAHM.

Anyway, so she was astounded to see the offers I was getting, from cool companies doing cool high tech stuff, paying me much more and even cases where Senior Vice Presidents of the companies would call me to sell me the job. One of them said he would sweeten the deal by 8% if I joined him. Companies fighting over me! She was genuinely very very happy of course, but she could not believe what she was seeing. She was used to and had resigned herself to only bad news when it concerned me. I start my new job on Monday. 
On the personal side, I've made some changes in my own behavior. Nothing drastic, but I have stopped nitpicking on what she does, and do not get angry/annoyed when she screws up or even behaves badly with me. I just tell myself to keep calm and relax while she sometimes says hurtful or rude things. Most of the time, she cools down and hugs me and tries to make up. I don't hold grudges and let it go. I guess it is a change for her also. But I have noticed a lot more respectful behavior, and the only cause I can see for it is the uptick in my career. While my title is the same, my salary and area of work are much much better. I think it is true that women respect their husbands more if they are doing well in their career, regardless of whether the husband works hard or not. If the husband is hit with bad luck, he is out of luck at home also. Just my observations. 

Not a whole lot of improvement in the bedroom but I think it will slowly come. She is very busy and tired in her own job and is looking for a change. From my side, I have to just do what I am doing with her, and on the professional side, do really well and I have a real chance of some advancement either in this company or my next.


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## tonygunner007

Wow, Good for you Niravana. I'm happy for you.

I liked that part you talked about the little changes in your behavior. She misbehaves, you don't get angry - you ignore her. She feels bad and comes back to make up.

That's powerful. You see! One thing I've discovered about women is that when you ignore their misbehavior, they tend to feel bad. But when you react, they misbehave more. 

For me, this is the part that made her change. When you keep calm no matter the **** she throws at you, she respects you more: because it shows her that she can't control your emotions.

And usually when women misbehave, that is what they want: to control your emotions - and make you act in certain ways. They do that because it makes them feel a sense of power over you - over your emotions.

And the less power they have over your emotions, the more respect you get.

Congratulations once more.


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## Blondilocks

I'm glad that things have turned around for you. Just a question: while you were unemployed did you tell your wife how much you appreciated her keeping a roof over your head, bringing home the bacon and frying it up in a pan, paying the bills and thank her for all of her hard work?

You know that 'Indian' prejudice excuse will only last for so long. Maybe it's just you?


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## pickil65

Okay I haven't read every response but I have read a few, it sounds like you let her spend money when she wants to, but have you ever planned a surprise just for her, like take her out for dinner for course you would have to know what she is planning on cooking for dinner etc.. It sounds like you don't buy her anything either, women like getting things, as far as she has "only worked the last 9 months" HELL No if you have a 12 year old she has been working the last 12 years being a mom, if you haven't seen the video going around social media about the "interview" to be a mom you need to see it and you will see just how much a MOM does, yes Dad's do things too but especially if she has been at home and you working, she has done the majority of the things. All of her activities don't tell her NOT to do them, she is doing them because she wants too. 

You can afford it so do it, get a house keeper for her, that will come 2 to 3 times a month and do the "deep" cleaning of the house, get someone to take care of the yard for you. There is other ways to show your kids how to work hard. Better yet, pay your kids to do the yard work, your 12 year old is old enough to do this. Do you do things on the weekend, go to amusement parks with the kids. ETC... 

Do you ever send her flowers at her new job just for the heck of it. Saying things and not doing things to show she is appreciated is not very helpful. My hubby gets upset because I say SORRY way to much, and he always says stop saying sorry if you aren't going to do something about it.


----------



## the2ofus

Decorum said:


> What did she say when you told her that?
> 
> Just kidding.
> 
> Can you not look back and remember times she has put her arms around you and said "Thank you"..."Thank you for every thing you do that makes our life so wonderful! (Maybe with some specific examples)"
> 
> I cannot imaging going for years and never expressing gratitude for your partners contribution.
> 
> But at least she can look back and remember the times you have done so, right?
> 
> No?
> 
> Validation and appreciation/gratitude are fundamental relationship skills.
> 
> Are you guys in competition for martyr of the year award?
> 
> Do you not have conversations on what each of you needs out of a relationship?
> 
> Well if not its time to graduate this to a more intentional relationship.
> 
> You really should work on bringing out the best in each other, time (perhaps) to address the direction your relationship is meandering in (if so).
> *
> This is not a "You" verses "Her" struggle, its an "We" verses a "NO we" effort that is the ongoing work that makes a marriage exclusive.*
> 
> Its the spirit of the marriage, and it primary enemy is
> selfishness.
> 
> BTW requiring each other to contribute is not selfish, it fundamental to a relationship. Without it you don't have a relationship you have a charity.
> 
> 
> Dont rush headlong into this. Take a step back, consider where you guys are at and where you want to be and invite your wife (subtly) into this appraisal and to join you in weeding and pruning your marriage.
> 
> Do some planning together, small steps! (So include reading some books, and doing some marriage counseling, etc if it would be helpful.)
> 
> This is something a man needs to do, especially before he does any belly aching.
> 
> Take care!


I really like the way you put the bolded. I have often said that in a long winded way, thanks for a more concise statement 



Anon Pink said:


> FW asked if you were grateful that she worked. Your answer below reveals your complete lack of gratitude that you had your wife to care for your children 24/7/365. A thankless job and you kind of just proved exactly how thankless it was in your home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your words below revealeven more...
> 
> 
> 
> She has resentments because you did not treat her in a loving romantic way. Having been in your wife's shoes, I am reading a lot more into this admission that you probably want to admit to right now. I just want to point out that you say you "owned up and have no excuses.." And this statement is followed by....EXCUSES.
> 
> Then you say you are "trying to bring some changes." Are you trying or are you doing because the two are NOT the same.
> 
> This discussion mirrors the discussions I have had with my H so I'll repeat some of the things I've said and done and my own admissions as well.
> 
> You work your ass off, you take care of your family, you provide for them in every way, materially. As I've told my H, I can't imagine the pride you must feel when you look around and take in all you have and think "I made all of this possible." I mean that must be some kind of personal high! For me, I look at a spotless kitchen and an organized closet and say "I made that possible!" The two statements of achievement do not come close to being comparable, do they?
> 
> I do my best to ensure my H feels rested and confident and prepared to face the business world and slay those financial dragons to bring home the meat. My role is support. I do it well.
> 
> But there are times I don't do it well. I feel resentment that my role as support, as caregiver of our children, as the home and garden guru feels so insignificant compared to what my H makes possible through his role/work. In those times, it would be good if my husband could show his love and support by reminding me why I feel in love with him in the first place. This is where romance comes in.
> 
> You admit you lacked the romance moves and you admit your wife has resentments as a result. Those resentments prevent her from being the supportive, loving woman she used to be. You can only give so much for so long before the well runs dry and that might be where your wife is right now.
> 
> She is working outside the home now. She is getting her kudos and appreciation, refilling her well, from working. Not from you. Not from the role she once had as sole carer of the home and family.
> 
> You're in a precarious position right now. Your wife still resents the lack of care and concern you showed and no longer sees herself as your support because her well ran dry. Now she sees herself as being a married single person. Yes she is married but unlike a true marriage she is getting her emotional needs (her well replenished) not from her husband but from work. At work she is appreciated, thanked, paid, and probably praised. This is the stuff you should have been doing.
> 
> How are you going to turn this around?


:iagree: very well said. As the 17 yr stay at home mom I would say she's right on the money.


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## Anon Pink

> But I have noticed a lot more respectful behavior, and the only cause I can see for it is the uptick in my career.



Really? Your career? 



> On the personal side, I've made some changes in my own behavior. Nothing drastic, but I *have stopped nitpicking* on what she does, and *do not get angry/annoyed when she screws up* or even behaves badly with me. I just tell myself to *keep calm and relax *while she sometimes says hurtful or rude things. Most of the time, she cools down and hugs me and tries to make up. I *don't hold grudges and let it go*. I guess it is a change for her also.


Good lord son. Dense as dense can be!


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## Cynthia

Nirvana,

Congratulations on your new job. I hope you love it.

You are a good man who wants to take good care of his family. You have a sense of justice and responsibility. You want to be appreciated for what you do, because you are focused on what you believe are the most important things. Because you believe you are doing the most important things, you want to be valued and appreciated for those things. Does that sound right?

The problem is that your wife does not see things quite as you do. She has a different perspective. She sees the most important things as being a happy family life, a comfortable home, and looking good.

If you can recognize that her point of view is as valid as yours and live in harmony with her in that, it will help your relationship. 

Earlier in the thread, you stated:


nirvana said:


> Also, in hindsight, I feel I made a mistake of telling her she could take her time in looking for a job post first baby. I was trying to be the nice understanding husband. After about 6 months, I should have told her that she should find a job and start her career and we could put the baby in daycare. I know the super-feminists here will go "who are you to tell her what to do?? It's her choice!!". I reject that. I should step up and correct my wife when she goes wrong and I want her to step up and tell me honestly when I mess up. That is tough love. How I frame my view is important though, I should not frame it like an order, but a strong view/advice. I will do the same to my kids, I don't care if they hate me for it at that time. They will appreciate it when they grow older.


If your wife is aware of this, she is also aware that you consider her time as a sahm to be wasted time. She sees it as the best use of her time. This is a huge difference in how you view each other and what you each do.

As a sahm, it is easier for me to relate to her than it is to relate to you, as I see family as my #1 priority. I think you see what you are doing as caring for your family, and it is, but you had a balance where you wife was there more emotionally and physically than you have been. I’m not saying that is a bad thing or that you aren’t doing enough. You have stated that you go to all your kid’s games and so forth, you take them for family outings, etc.

If your wife feels like you believe she wasted all those years at home, she will not feel appreciated either. I think you two need to appreciate each other. The reason people are addressing your behavior more than hers is that she isn’t here. You are. We can’t tell you how to change your wife, because no one can change his wife. We can only change ourselves and that will change how others related to us. We also have to be able to communicate our needs and set boundaries so others will help us meet our needs.

To get your wife to appreciate you, you could start by appreciating all those years that your wife spent at home learning to be a master cook, caring for the children, and keeping your beautiful home clean and comfortable for you, while you busted your butt bringing home the money and doing your best to manage the finances in a responsible manner.

Once you develop an appreciation for all your wife has done for you and the family, you will be able to express your appreciation for her contribution. If you can do that first, then you will be in a position to ask your wife to express appreciation for you. You have to go first and then you can ask your wife to come alongside you and do the same for you.

You probably think you have done that, but based on what you wrote above, you don’t think what she did was worthwhile, because you said she should have gone to work long ago. That would mean that she should have gotten a job rather than being a sahm, because being a sahm is not that important. Taken further, her job as a sahm is not as important as your job working for money. She knows that you feel this way. It probably causes her to feel devalued.

You seem to be making excellent progress in the way you are relating to you wife and it is having a positive impact on your relationship. I don’t think it is the new job that’s causing your wife’s improved attitude. I think it is that you are romancing your wife, listening to her, not getting irritated with her, you are giving her the attention she wants, and you are making her look good to her peers.

I don’t think it will be long before you are able to see the root of her issues and that she will begin to appreciate you, because she feels appreciated. If your sex life doesn’t improve at that point, you can begin to work on that in some other ways, but hopefully it will come naturally as she feels valued as a woman.


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## nirvana

tonygunner007 said:


> Wow, Good for you Niravana. I'm happy for you.
> 
> I liked that part you talked about the little changes in your behavior. She misbehaves, you don't get angry - you ignore her. She feels bad and comes back to make up.
> 
> That's powerful. You see! One thing I've discovered about women is that when you ignore their misbehavior, they tend to feel bad. But when you react, they misbehave more.
> 
> For me, this is the part that made her change. When you keep calm no matter the **** she throws at you, she respects you more: because it shows her that she can't control your emotions.
> 
> And usually when women misbehave, that is what they want: to control your emotions - and make you act in certain ways. They do that because it makes them feel a sense of power over you - over your emotions.
> 
> And the less power they have over your emotions, the more respect you get.
> 
> Congratulations once more.


Thanks tony.
I managed to hang in there for a whole month until Oct 31 when there was a blow up. Here is what happened. We got called to a friends place for a Halloween party after the kids went out and got back. The whole neighborhood was invited - Indians. Before leaving, my wife told me to talk to "everybody" and not just with a few friends. I hate it when she says that, as if I am a child. She likes to think that she is very social and very nice. Which she is, but I am too. I ignored what she said. Then at the party, one of our friends started out on her usual topic about her kids (She is the only Indian woman in the neighborhood who is a SAHM, everyone else has started working). She said that she thought it was useless to send her kid to basketball, tennis, etc etc because she didn't think it would help him get into a good college. I got into the discussion that those activities were for her kid's overall development and confidence, not to get college admission. Some other friends joined in the conversation including her husband. My wife was on the other side talking to someone else. 

Our friends are mischevious. There was a whatsapp image joke that went around (clean one) and a friend showed it to me (it was the husband of the woman above) and I asked him to send it to me. He immediately says "He Mrs nirvana, see what nirvana is asking me to send him". Then my wife comes by and plays along with a "what is he asking you to send him?? Is it a girls picture?" Now it's all a joke but I am tired and fed up of this "joke". It is no longer funny. These people caught on to the vibe that my wife is insecure and has low self esteem so they try to cause us to fight in public and my wife plays along. I actually was okay with this (publicly) and didn't get angry.

Then when we were getting home, my wife asks me why I was "arguing" with the woman and that she later came to her side with a pissed off look. I was flabbergasted. This woman always has that look on her face and my wife herself comments on it. Now she was accusing me of causing it when it was not just me but other people also discussing the kid-to-college issue. Then she began to lecture me on how not to hurt other people's feelings. That pissed me off more than the "joke" from at the party. 

It escalated into a big fight later that night. Only an hour later did the light bulb go off in my mind. She was acting illogical, crazy and irrational. Was she in PMS mode? I have an app to keep track of her date and I knew it was close to the 3rd of Nov. Oh crap, that's it, she's going bonkers because of her PMS. If only I had realized it in time and avoided all the baiting she did. My problem is I always treat her like an rational adult and have those standards for her. During her PMS, she behaves and acts like an irrational teenager and unless I realize that she is in this mode, I react to her in a wrong way while expecting adult conversation.

Sure enough, she had her period on the 2nd of Nov. I changed the alert on my app from 3 days to 5 days so I know that crazy-time is coming and I can be ready with my bullet-proof vest. 

We made up the next day and things are back to normal but I feel that I wasted the gains of October. Anyway, overall, there is progress and I know how to deal with her I think.


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## nirvana

Blondilocks said:


> I'm glad that things have turned around for you. Just a question: while you were unemployed did you tell your wife how much you appreciated her keeping a roof over your head, bringing home the bacon and frying it up in a pan, paying the bills and thank her for all of her hard work?
> 
> You know that 'Indian' prejudice excuse will only last for so long. Maybe it's just you?


Let me be upfront and honest, she wasn't keeping the roof over our heads by any means. I have worked for 17 years and I save a lot and invest wisely. I have talked about this in my earlier posts. Her being employed helped us get cheap medical insurance for 3-4 weeks. If she was not employed, I would be paying more for us, but I could easily afford to pay that if I had to. I am not being arrogant, I am just stating facts that are important here.

In the meantime I worked my ass off, got 3 offers and had companies raise their offer to get me. I got a job paying 20% more with great growth possibilities. I also kept the house clean, did the laundry, picked up the kids from school and did the dish washing along with my other chores that I do myself (like lawn mowing etc etc).

So "putting a roof on my head" and "paying the bills" and "bringing home the bacon" is just pushing it waaaayyyy too far. Her salary is some good extra income, that's about it. I am happy that she is using her smart intellect to something creative, more than the money she brings home. I am not a daily wage earner flipping burgers - I am a software engineer with a Masters in Computer Engineering and an MBA from top schools. I have been making $100,000+ for more than 10 years and saving a lot too (again, not trying to show off).


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## nirvana

pickil65 said:


> Okay I haven't read every response but I have read a few, it sounds like you let her spend money when she wants to, but have you ever planned a surprise just for her, like take her out for dinner for course you would have to know what she is planning on cooking for dinner etc.. It sounds like you don't buy her anything either, women like getting things, as far as she has "only worked the last 9 months" HELL No if you have a 12 year old she has been working the last 12 years being a mom, if you haven't seen the video going around social media about the "interview" to be a mom you need to see it and you will see just how much a MOM does, yes Dad's do things too but especially if she has been at home and you working, she has done the majority of the things. All of her activities don't tell her NOT to do them, she is doing them because she wants too.
> 
> You can afford it so do it, get a house keeper for her, that will come 2 to 3 times a month and do the "deep" cleaning of the house, get someone to take care of the yard for you. There is other ways to show your kids how to work hard. Better yet, pay your kids to do the yard work, your 12 year old is old enough to do this. Do you do things on the weekend, go to amusement parks with the kids. ETC...
> 
> Do you ever send her flowers at her new job just for the heck of it. Saying things and not doing things to show she is appreciated is not very helpful. My hubby gets upset because I say SORRY way to much, and he always says stop saying sorry if you aren't going to do something about it.


You are right, but I am changing. 
I have talked about it in the other "coworker" thread. My wife does not like surprises where she feels out of control. During my time when I was at home but had 3 offers, I told her I would take her out on a date and pick her up from her work. She enjoyed those. Then just to surprise her, I showed up at her work and called her from outside. That did not go as well so I was right that surprises tend to rattle her. 

About the gifts, I agree with you. She has an iPhone 5S and wants a new one. I just got her an iPhone 6s (latest one) and she does not know about it (a surprise). It just arrived yesterday. I need to set it up and will do it today. She will love a surprise like this though. It cost me $630 but it will be well worth it. She grumbles that her friends have the latest phones and now she will have the latest one since her friends have iPhone 6, not 6S. One would expect a loving response, but I know what will happen. She will just say "thank you" in a very happy manner and then it's on to the next thing. Then more complaining about what other people have and she doesn't while not talking about what those people don't have which she does.

We have had a house cleaner for about a year now. She comes every 2 weeks.

The weekends are taken up by chores like grocery, shopping and kids activities like basketball, dance, tennis etc etc. She is also tired from work and so am I. But we do go out occasionally. 

I haven't yet sent her flowers to work mainly I am not sure how she will react. She can be counter intuitive at times and get mad at me for something when she should actually be happy. I can easily spent the money and I have the intent. I am just in 2 minds about whether to do it because the worst thing would be that she comes home and complains that "everyone was looking at me" and I like a fool would be expecting a hug and a kiss.

My wife never says sorry. Instead she blames others. It's a family thing, her father is like that too. It is always someone else's fault. Yesterday my wife left the front door open and left to work. She immediately blamed me for leaving from the front door. Then I reminded her that when I left, she was at the door to wave to me. She should have locked it. When I told her that, she changed the topic. 

My wife never says thanks to my face. She has a good life thanks to me, and some nice words would be nice. Never. But I think she does feel it, but her ego/arrogance prevents her. Recently she had to make a presentation about herself for work. She had a whole slide for me with a lot of good things said about me. I saw her "notes" and more effusive praise. I wish she only said it to me directly. Maybe she is afraid that I will get a swollen head if she praises me for something that I do.


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## nirvana

Anon Pink said:


> Really? Your career?
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord son. Dense as dense can be!


That is your opinion and that is okay. I stand by what I have said. 

I will work hard and my goal is to get a promotion by mid next year. My wife would go nuts every time her friends would gloat about their husbands career. The friend would say "my hubby got a promotion and now oversees operations for the whole eastern part of the country". That would set her off. The reality is that the friends husband would be close to getting laid off and they just did a re-organization and moved him to a different role. Not a promotion. They guys would tell me openly while their wives would boast about it to make the other girls jealous. 

My wife's eyes opened when I got the nice big salary bump and when a Sr VP called me to raise my offer by 8% if I joined his company. Her behavior changed after that. People in general respect folks who are respected (wanted) by other folks. My wife strongly exhibits this tendency.


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## nirvana

Cynthia De, thanks for your post, I will reply a bit later.


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## Florentines

I believe there surely is a resentment issue. I do think that she likes to hear complements from you re:food. You mentioned that she suffers from low self esteem so you recognising her work does help. 

Perhaps a discussion around how valuable her role is as a stay at home mom looking after the family has been great might help. 

In some ways, is it safe to assume that her role has allowed you to focus on your job and become successful?

I am a married woman and I am the breadwinner, I sometimes feel that I do too much for the family as I bring the money, cook and sometimes clean and it's not recognised. I sometimes want to hear that what I do is appreciated (I don't see work as service to my husband) and I think you feel similarly?


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## turnera

Mrs. Nirvana has no right to feel she does 'everything' for the family. She got to stay at home for X years while he gave her everything she wanted. Her parents taught her to be haughty and it's all she knows. He can change that, though, by refusing to 'reward' her when she acts like an ass. Keep that phone. You say you aren't talking right now after the debacle. Keep it that way. Let her see you are perfectly fine not caving in and kissing her ass to get her to talk to you again. See how far it goes.

Once she is speaking to you again, THEN give her the phone. Not until.


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## nirvana

turnera said:


> Mrs. Nirvana has no right to feel she does 'everything' for the family. She got to stay at home for X years while he gave her everything she wanted. Her parents taught her to be haughty and it's all she knows. He can change that, though, by refusing to 'reward' her when she acts like an ass. Keep that phone. You say you aren't talking right now after the debacle. Keep it that way. Let her see you are perfectly fine not caving in and kissing her ass to get her to talk to you again. See how far it goes.
> 
> Once she is speaking to you again, THEN give her the phone. Not until.


This is exactly what I am going to do! :thumbup:
I confess, I still have that little thing somewhere where I want her to look up to me and say that I did a great job at being the man of the house and providing for everyone. I am not looking for fake praise, because I have done all this in spite of all the difficulties and insults and comparisons. 

But I will get that from my career. If she wants me, SHE will have to come. 

And I am not going to any parties. Diwali is next week and there's a holiday party coming up. She has rounded up some kids and is doing a dance with them. As of now, I am not showing up. She can be the only one without a husband out there. In Indian circles it gets noticed.


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## nirvana

Florentines said:


> I believe there surely is a resentment issue. I do think that she likes to hear complements from you re:food. You mentioned that she suffers from low self esteem so you recognising her work does help.
> 
> Perhaps a discussion around how valuable her role is as a stay at home mom looking after the family has been great might help.
> 
> In some ways, is it safe to assume that her role has allowed you to focus on your job and become successful?
> 
> I am a married woman and I am the breadwinner, I sometimes feel that I do too much for the family as I bring the money, cook and sometimes clean and it's not recognised. I sometimes want to hear that what I do is appreciated (I don't see work as service to my husband) and I think you feel similarly?



I compliment her on her looks, her job, her raising of kids, cooking etc. She never does any to me. What's worse is she goes the other way and has started to disrespect me by calling me lazy and comment on "how you head to the food as you reach a party". I am slim unlike the other husbands, she is just trying to kill my confidence. I am done boosting her self-confidence, because she just uses it to kill mine.

She keeps commenting about how out of shape her friends are with their "fat asses". I just keep silence. She talks about how many of them don't work as hard as her. I just say nothing.

Florenines, she is not a stay at home mom now. She has been working for a year. Her job is secondary and even if she stopped, we are in good shape. I make 2.7 times more than her salary wise.

She has been spending time with the kids. How long though? She will come to me tomorrow or Tuesday. That's when I teach her.


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## aine

Nirvana, 

I think there is just a lack of good communication in your marriage, that is all (it happens to us all).

Your wife does appreciate you, she boasts to her friends, writes nice things on her slides at work etc so it is obvious she does, she just does not know how to express it in a way you would accept or understand.

I also think the culture (Indian) doesn't really subscribe to this type of openness and praise. Building people up, etc is seen to lack humility, problems with 'evil eye' (you know what i am talking about?) etc. If she was brought up by an arrogant father then she probably wasn't exposed to a mother who praised the father at all and kids learn behaviour from their parents. Was she born in India, raised in India?

You on the other hand appear to be a more 'westernised' Indian, am I right? So expectations are quite different. The only way around this is through communication. Sit her down and tell her, 'honey, I really love it when you tell me that you appreciate all the things I do for the family, etc etc. It has to become a learned behaviour.

I am western but have difficulty doing this for my H as I feel it is so contrived and as Anon Pink said, we women feel it smacks of immodesty or lack of humility, so it is difficult to express. When my H tells me of certain achievements at work where he has done really well, I honestly feel he is overly boastful and full of it but I guess it's a difference in the way men and women are , so now I try and see it from his POV.

YOur last point "that's when I teach her?" you seem to want to engage in a struggle with your wife, there is no WE just her and me. Marriage is supposed to be sacrificial service for your SO not driven by selfishness yet, you have this 'tit for tat' type of approach. I'm sorry Nirvana, but it will not get you far.


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## turnera

I disagree that it's tit for tat. I think he needs to bring respect back into the relationship by slowly - very slowly - not rewarding her when she's giving him a sh*t test. Speaking honestly about him feeling disrespected. And moving forward with healthy responses. He's spent so many years kissing her butt that it sounds like he's saying he's being combative, but I think it's just him seeing that he has a voice. And of course it might be English as second language barrier.


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## nirvana

aine said:


> Nirvana,
> 
> I think there is just a lack of good communication in your marriage, that is all (it happens to us all).
> 
> Your wife does appreciate you, she boasts to her friends, writes nice things on her slides at work etc so it is obvious she does, she just does not know how to express it in a way you would accept or understand.
> 
> I also think the culture (Indian) doesn't really subscribe to this type of openness and praise. Building people up, etc is seen to lack humility, problems with 'evil eye' (you know what i am talking about?) etc. If she was brought up by an arrogant father then she probably wasn't exposed to a mother who praised the father at all and kids learn behaviour from their parents. Was she born in India, raised in India?
> 
> You on the other hand appear to be a more 'westernised' Indian, am I right? So expectations are quite different. The only way around this is through communication. Sit her down and tell her, 'honey, I really love it when you tell me that you appreciate all the things I do for the family, etc etc. It has to become a learned behaviour.
> 
> I am western but have difficulty doing this for my H as I feel it is so contrived and as Anon Pink said, we women feel it smacks of immodesty or lack of humility, so it is difficult to express. When my H tells me of certain achievements at work where he has done really well, I honestly feel he is overly boastful and full of it but I guess it's a difference in the way men and women are , so now I try and see it from his POV.
> 
> YOur last point "that's when I teach her?" you seem to want to engage in a struggle with your wife, there is no WE just her and me. Marriage is supposed to be sacrificial service for your SO not driven by selfishness yet, you have this 'tit for tat' type of approach. I'm sorry Nirvana, but it will not get you far.


Well, I think you are right. I was surprised to see the good stuff she put about me in those slides and the notes she was working on (I wasn't supposed to see the notes) but then I also wonder if I am being misled in the sense that she wants the world to see how awesome her life is, so she might be just being selfish after all. I have no idea what is the case.

Yes, Indian culture does not incorporate openness and praise, so you are right there. I don't see any of that in the previous generation. My wife was born and raised and India, while I was born in the US, but raised mostly in India. My parents were in the US, so are more Westernized than most other Indians. I always wanted my wife to be my equal, my friend, my partner. Not my slave, my employee or my underling. In the same way, I am not going to be my wife's slave, employee or underling either. My inlaws have a weird relationship. My father in law is a dominating MCP and treats my mother in law like crap. She grew up in a rural area, not very educated, and so put up with his nonsense for 40 years now. My FIL has to put in his 2 cents even if I offer my MIL a soft drink... he does not let her even make such simple decisions. However, for his daughters, he raised them with a lot of freedom. I sometimes wonder whether my wife has some deep seated resentment over how her father has treated her mother and wants to take revenge on "male-kind" by being a b!tch with me as representing her dad? I cannot even stand her dad for many reasons.

I wonder if the dynamic is that I need to be an a-hole to get her to respect me. If I am a normal person, then she turns on her b!tch mode. I hate being an a-hole with my close family and friends, so I am in a bind.


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## nirvana

So here's what happened yesterday and today.

I still don't know WTF she is mad about. At this point, I don't care. If she wants me to know, she should come out and say it. We spend the whole of Sunday not talking. She makes snide comments which I ignore. I spend the day cleaning and vacuuming our bedroom and my computer room. Then did some other chores and did some work organizing pictures in my laptop. I have years of photos all over so I want to organize them. She goes to a sports store in the evening with our son without telling me that she she is leaving. She makes dinner and feeds the kids, my son says she didn't eat. So I come down and heat some food in a bowl and eat dinner by myself. Then she throws a taunt that maybe I can get my mother to come cook me dinner. The reference is because I called my parents Sunday morning. I called because my dad just got urinary infection so I wanted to see how he is doing. My mom came on the line and asked what I was doing so I said I was cleaning the bedroom. That probably pissed her off because in her own little world she looks bad because cleaning is a "woman's job". Of course, she is okay with making me do or or leaving it like a pig sty. Whatever. 

She always irons my work clothes, but I decided I needed to break away from favors so I did it myself Sunday night. 3 sets to last to Wednesday.

Monday morning, I wake up and eat breakfast and ignore her the whole time. She does too. Then while getting dressed she steams in and begins to yell at me about what an egotistical ass I am and calls me "son of a prostitute" in an Indian language and hits me on the head. All unprovoked. I told her that I wasn't talking to her if she was behaving so badly. She responds with more anger and I ignore it and drive to work. When I get to work at 9:15am, I see a text from her saying she has a lot of back ache and her period hasn't stopped (after a week) and she has asked the doctor for an appointment. And that I should not worry as she will call her friend for moral support. I called her up and asked her what was going on and she said she also had a bluish mark on her leg that she didn't know where it came from. I think she is just doing her usual guilt trip routine on me. Some more haughty sounding talk from her and then I said "so you got a doc appointment, good. Talk to you later" and hung up. We still don't have an medical insurance card since it comes from her insurance, so I don't know what she is planning. She thinks she knows everything and can handle everything. Now let her do it.

So that was the morning. The only thing she does for me now is cook. Nothing else, I do everything myself which also pisses her off because I do a much better job. I think she just loves the chaos and drama and then the moaning and groaning while I like to come up with a solution to things (engineer mentality). Soon I will also start cooking for myself, so she will be left with no strings to pull. Whenever she wants to show "proof" of what an awful person I am she brings up something from 2001 or 2005 to back up her wailing. 

The other day she went to get her hair cut or trimmed. The stylist noticed dry scalp and some dandruff buildup. Then she says that one of her past clients had something similar and it was cancer. So my wife comes charging home and tells me this. I said don't worry, it is dandruff buildup and I had it too many years ago. She began to accuse me of "not caring". Well, forgive me for not freaking out every time you do. If I did, she would accuse me of "not being a man". No winning with this woman. So then she went on the internet and looked it up as I had expected and I guess she didn't find any references to cancer, so she dropped it. But I am amazed how she took an uneducated hair stylists word for it. Maybe the woman had cancer for a long time, we don't know the details.

From my side, I am take a Gandhian stance and ignore all provocations and physical attacks. Let her resolve her own issues. If she wants, she can talk to me, but in a nice and respectful way.


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## Cynthia

You could tell her that if she physically attacks you again that you will call 911. If you don't say anything, she will think it's okay to treat you that way. Standing up to her is the only way to get her to back down. But whatever you do, do not hit her back.

It sounds like your wife may have serious hormonal issues on top of her princess mentality. This is not a good combination. Encourage her to have a thorough hormone workup. Let her know that her behavior is highly unacceptable and you are not going to put up with it, but if she is having physical problems that are contributing to this that you are there to help and support her in getting well. In the meantime, however, you are not going to put up with emotional, verbal, or physicial abuse. It's not only bad for you, but it sets a bad example for the kids.


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## nirvana

CynthiaDe said:


> You could tell her that if she physically attacks you again that you will call 911. If you don't say anything, she will think it's okay to treat you that way. Standing up to her is the only way to get her to back down. But whatever you do, do not hit her back.
> 
> It sounds like your wife may have serious hormonal issues on top of her princess mentality. This is not a good combination. Encourage her to have a thorough hormone workup. Let her know that her behavior is highly unacceptable and you are not going to put up with it, but if she is having physical problems that are contributing to this that you are there to help and support her in getting well. In the meantime, however, you are not going to put up with emotional, verbal, or physicial abuse. It's not only bad for you, but it sets a bad example for the kids.


I think it's a hormone issue, but I don't know any more than that. Could you or any other ladies tell me what I can do or what tests we need to undergo? 

The other thing is she claims to be very busy and very tired and whenever someone wants her to volunteer for something, she very enthusiastically signs up, gets more tired and then blames me for MAKING HER (her words) do things for MY (her words again) kids.

I can never imagine what hormones will do to a woman since I will never be one, but this may be the reason for her behavior.

In the past, I have pushed her and held her when she tried to hit me, but about 6 weeks ago, after a similar episode I felt like crap. This is not what I want us to become, so I control the urge. She deserves a good thrashing, but you know I cannot do that.


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## nirvana

turnera said:


> I disagree that it's tit for tat. I think he needs to bring respect back into the relationship by slowly - very slowly - not rewarding her when she's giving him a sh*t test. Speaking honestly about him feeling disrespected. And moving forward with healthy responses. He's spent so many years kissing her butt that it sounds like he's saying he's being combative, but I think it's just him seeing that he has a voice. And of course it might be English as second language barrier.


There is no English barrier, we are both well educated in ENglish schools and our English is very good both for written, and spoken. Besides that we speak an Indian language at home for most part, but also speak English at times.

Yes, I think that I am being barraged with sh*t tests all the time. It is always about how XYZ is doing ABC for his wife and how I am not. She will not see what I have done for my wife and kids, so this goal post she has for me is always moving. One fellow bought his wife a $5k watch. Now I feel plonking down $5k for a damn watch is a bloody waste of money, I'd rather use it towards the mortgage or our kids college fund. She will use this as an example of how her friend's husband loves her friend. But if I ask just for argument's sake if I should buy her a $10k watch, then she will say no because she isn't stupid. She just likes to manipulate and control me. A skill she learned from her father who is a master at this.

My prediction is she will try all the theatrics that she is used to doing to get me to talk to her again. But of course, make it look like I was begging her to take me back. It's time I put my foot down and not let her get away with her bs anymore.


----------



## turnera

At this point, I'd be considering getting a white board and installing it on the wall and writing down everything you do for the family. Just to make a point. 

Seriously, IDK. I have no idea how to fight this except for two things: start being 100% honest with her. "That was rude." "When you criticize me it makes me not want to be around you." "I'm getting tired of told how much you do and how little I do." "I'm learning that I am not happy in this situation and if you keep trying your old ways of controlling me, I just may decide this isn't worth it." "What you are doing is called a 'sh*t test' in the common vernacular; look it up; and understand that I'm getting tired of it."

And to also ensure that you ARE meeting her needs, her crapola notwithstanding. So that nobody can say that you deserve her ire.


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## Cynthia

This is not all hormonal. She has a terrible attitude. I think the two of you may benefit from marriage counseling.
A doctor would know what kind of tests to run to determine if her hormones are causing any of this.
Have you spoken to her and told her that her physical violence is dangerous and you will not tolerate it? Seriously, if you have spoken to her and she continues, you might consider calling 911. Having a record is extremely important, especially if this continues. You cannot let her abuse you and be healthy. It could lead to divorce and then you will wish you had documentation.


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## aine

She is pushing the boundaries with this behaviour, hormones or not. You have to take charge and tell her it is totally unacceptable and her 'attacks' and you will not stand for it anymore. Tell her that you are prepared to leave her if this continues, she needs a wake up call big time as she is really taking you for granted. 

Tell her her lack of respect is intolerable and you will no longer be treated like this or talked down to anymore. Tell her you love her very much and would do anything for her but there is only so much a man can take and a day will come when you have reached your limit. The princess needs to see that you mean business. 

Do the 180 on her for a while and let her think about her actions. If she is really having hormonal issues then she should have her hormones tested and see if she needs HRT or bioidenticals, etc. There is also ayurvedic supplements such as Shatavari which is very good for this kind of thing.

I think you should also read this
Why Women Leave Men

Not because your wife is going to leave you but to see how husbands and wives 'talk past each other'

one quote which is telling "Most husbands are mystified by these complaints. They feel that their wives demand too much, and that most other women would be ecstatic if married to them. Their wives have become spoiled, take their efforts for granted and have unrealistic expectations."
You seem to be in this boat and at cross purposes. You may well benefit from some MC together just to understand each other better and work more as a team.


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## turnera

Remind me: did you read No More Mr Nice Guy? Maybe it's time.


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## nirvana

Day 3 of the cold war. I still don't know what she is mad about!
At this point, I don't care anymore. If she has a problem with something, she needs to come to me and talk about it. If I have done something wrong, I will apologize. I have apologized many times when I have been rude to her. Even though the rudeness was because of her incessant nagging about something silly when I was worried about something far more important like career or my graduate studies or something like that.

Her big weakness is "what will people think". It is a family malaise on her side. Every thing is kosher as long as others don't find out. My wife is a bad house keeper, everything is untidy and the family room is a pig sty. Her excuses are "I am too tired" or "The kids need to see their toys and books in front of their eyes, otherwise they won't play" or something like that. The fun is when a friend calls and says "I need to come by, will be there in 10 minutes!". That's when the frenzied tidying up begins. Because she is afraid of what the guest will think.

Her clothes closet and mine are a world apart. She has a walk-in and clothes are all over the place on the floor. I am sure she has many outfits she's bought but has just dumped in there and has forgotten about it. Why not tidy it up? "No time". "I am tired". In contrast my clothes rack is tidy and more importantly I keep it that way. Sometimes she finds a shirt of mine and sticks it on the hanger rather that put it on the right way. Pisses me off. 

I spent last weekend tidying and vacuuming our bedroom and the study. I also labeled the clothes hampers in the bathroom with our names. She made a face when she saw it, but it is mainly from jealousy because my system will work and her non-system will not. She is okay with everyone throwing dirty clothes on the floor in the bathroom and it grows and grows with everyone stepping on it. Now I instructed my kids to strictly put their clothes in the hampers with their names on them. 

She usually packs lunch for me and that hasn't happened this week. I will either make my own lunch or eat out. No more dependency. I began ironing my own clothes so that dependency has been cut. The last time we had sex was 3+ weeks ago and she behaves like it's a chore and she is "tired" so screw it, I don't want duty sex anymore. About sex, she is clever. She calls herself a "morning person" and claims that she wants to go to bed early. Week days are out for sex anyway since we both work. Weekends, she claims she is tired and wants to wake up early the next day so those nights are also out. Mornings sex? Are you crazy? That is all you think about! So that is out too. So basically no sex. She cooks for the family, and she's told me that I shouldn't eat her cooking, but heck, I am paying for the food and her car so why shouldn't I eat what she cooks? I might just start cooking myself. 

She needs to see that I can manage very well without her. Bring her ego down a few notches.

I have reached a point where I don't care anymore. October was heaven but it was too good to last. The Halloween party fvcked everything again. I also told her that I am NOT going to any more parties until I am convinced that she can behave herself and treat me with respect. There are some holiday parties coming up in the neighborhood, so that is when I put my foot down. She will throw tantrums but she can do what she wants. Her daddy indulged her for many many years and I may have let her continue but I am tired of this drama every now and then.


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## nirvana

turnera said:


> Remind me: did you read No More Mr Nice Guy? Maybe it's time.


Yes, I did read it in 2013. I don't agree with some aspects though. Like it says to read it with your wife. Now if I read it with her, she sees a change in my behavior then she is going to taunt "Oh you are not a "Nice Guy" huh?" etc etc. 

But I agree with the gist of it. My wife is a drama queen and was pampered by her dad growing up. She has seen through that fellow, but she still wants to be treated like a princess and praised but she won't do it for me. She has even said that I don't allow her to "rule" me and gave examples of how her friends husbands allow that. What total nonsense! Most of her friends are North Indians (from New Delhi region) and those men are the biggest MCPs ever. They might say the right things, but in their deeds, they never let their women walk over them.

I don't feel too bad about this cold war arrangement. I have my friends, my things I keep busy with and my kids. If she doesn't need me, I don't want her either. Let's see who breaks first.


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## nirvana

CynthiaDe said:


> This is not all hormonal. She has a terrible attitude. I think the two of you may benefit from marriage counseling.
> A doctor would know what kind of tests to run to determine if her hormones are causing any of this.
> Have you spoken to her and told her that her physical violence is dangerous and you will not tolerate it? Seriously, if you have spoken to her and she continues, you might consider calling 911. Having a record is extremely important, especially if this continues. You cannot let her abuse you and be healthy. It could lead to divorce and then you will wish you had documentation.



All she does is complain about me. I don't do this, I don't do that. The more I do, the more she complains. She is never happy. I was talking to my mother the other day and she said that some people get pleasure from being miserable. If life is good, they find something to feel miserable about. I see this with my wife. We have 2 angels, healthy, smart and good looking. Our health is good too. Our friends all have some health problem or the other. But instead of being thankful, she complains. 

She complained that the leaves were in the yard ("what will people think??") or that I did not get home security system in time, or she had a "crappy phone" (an iPhone 5S) etc etc. She's never happy with what she has. 

Yesterday she texted me that she has back ache and her period is still there and she was getting a doc appt. I got back home and she was home from work, obviously she did not go to the doctor. Maybe it was just some drama to get me to react. A sh!t test in other words. I am too old for that sh!t.


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## tom67

You can't keep letting her attack you physically because this will only get worse.
Put your foot down.
If things don't improve in a week or so you have some tough decisions ahead meaning considering filing and serving her at work.
It may show her you mean business.
Sadly it is something you have to think about.


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## turnera

I'm glad you're at the point that you're standing up for yourself, but you're making a mistake by not verbally stating so to her. That's the Nice Guy in you - just 'boycotting' her won't fix anything; it's a weak response hoping for a good response from her. Doesn't work that way.

"Wife, I'm not happy with how things are going. I'm ready to sit down and discuss this, here or in front of a counselor. But I'm no longer willing to continue with how things were. When you're ready to discuss, let me know. Until then, I guess I'll just take care of myself and the kids."

At least say that.


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## Cynthia

If she is cooking for the family, but doesn't make enough for you, that is outright, blatant contempt. That is unacceptable. Rather than making your own, I'd take hers and tell her that you are not going to tolerate being treated that way. I had no idea your wife had been acting like this. She is an abuser. You have told us about your issues and you seem to have been making a real effort to do your part. It is always necessary to do our own part first. Keep that up, but ignoring your wife's blatantly contemptuous behavior is not going to do you any good. Who cares what set her off. Unless you were involved in adulterous acts, there is little that would warrant such a reaction from your wife.
Here is an article that may open your eyes to where your marriage is headed. Lasting Relationships Rely On 2 Traits - Business Insider


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## nirvana

aine said:


> She is pushing the boundaries with this behaviour, hormones or not. You have to take charge and tell her it is totally unacceptable and her 'attacks' and you will not stand for it anymore. Tell her that you are prepared to leave her if this continues, she needs a wake up call big time as she is really taking you for granted.
> 
> Tell her her lack of respect is intolerable and you will no longer be treated like this or talked down to anymore. Tell her you love her very much and would do anything for her but there is only so much a man can take and a day will come when you have reached your limit. The princess needs to see that you mean business.
> 
> Do the 180 on her for a while and let her think about her actions. If she is really having hormonal issues then she should have her hormones tested and see if she needs HRT or bioidenticals, etc. There is also ayurvedic supplements such as Shatavari which is very good for this kind of thing.
> 
> I think you should also read this
> Why Women Leave Men
> 
> Not because your wife is going to leave you but to see how husbands and wives 'talk past each other'
> 
> one quote which is telling "Most husbands are mystified by these complaints. They feel that their wives demand too much, and that most other women would be ecstatic if married to them. Their wives have become spoiled, take their efforts for granted and have unrealistic expectations."
> You seem to be in this boat and at cross purposes. You may well benefit from some MC together just to understand each other better and work more as a team.


She thinks I will back down and try to get her to talk to me which puts her in a position of supremacy (in her mind) again. I do feel that her hormones are acting weird, but it's also a lot of comparison that she does. 

She has a big problem with raising people (outsiders) to divine status when she first meets them. Like some friend or some coworker or her boss or someone. Everything that person does is great. I have to hear her singing that person's praises. Like her friend M whose kid got into a school for smart kids. She became the one for everyone to emulate. I could see that the kid was smart to begin with and his mom was not very motherly and was more interested in her career as a doctor. Then in a year or two, she is thrown down from her pedestal and now my wife says she does not admire her anymore. Same with thing so many people. She puts them up, and then they come crashing down. Why can't she accept that people come with their flaws and no one is perfect?

From past history, she hangs in there for about 3 days and the 4th day is when she wants to make peace. However, she has a massive ego, so she does not come in and say "I want to resolve this, let's talk" or something like that. She begins to taunt and bait me with things like "Oh, you have such a massive ego! Look at you! I have never seen anyone as arrogant as you!". That is supposed to make me melt and want to be friends again. 

This time she has to behave herself and do it the right way otherwise, things will stay as they are. We will live like roommates with minimal communication. Let's see how long she wants to pull this.


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## nirvana

CynthiaDe said:


> If she is cooking for the family, but doesn't make enough for you, that is outright, blatant contempt. That is unacceptable. Rather than making your own, I'd take hers and tell her that you are not going to tolerate being treated that way. I had no idea your wife had been acting like this. She is an abuser. You have told us about your issues and you seem to have been making a real effort to do your part. It is always necessary to do our own part first. Keep that up, but ignoring your wife's blatantly contemptuous behavior is not going to do you any good. Who cares what set her off. Unless you were involved in adulterous acts, there is little that would warrant such a reaction from your wife.
> Here is an article that may open your eyes to where your marriage is headed. Lasting Relationships Rely On 2 Traits - Business Insider



I think she makes enough, but now she does not call me for dinner or has the kids call or something like that. At this point, I cannot determine for sure that she does not make enough or keeps me out. 

She basically wants me to bow down and make peace (she does not enjoy this situation) but is too proud to come say sorry, so she will try and bait me into another fight so I talk. So her "you cannot eat my cooking" is just to win the battle.

I'll read the article when I get home. I have no idea where the marriage is headed, but if it has to work, we both have to work on it. She seems enamored with a master-slave relationship that she claims her friends have. I told her clearly that for me, marriage is between equals and I want to treat my wife as a an equal. She is not above or below me. She is not my slave, neither am I hers. To that, she has no answer, so she wails about something I did in 2001 or how I insulted her in 2004 or something that may not have happened and in any case does not apply to 2015.


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## tom67

Let's see how long she wants to pull this.

No Nirvana wrong question it should be...

"How long am I going to TOLERATE this behavior"

Tell her "I can't control you but I can control what I will or will not put up with"
Just saying.


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## turnera

nirvana said:


> However, she has a massive ego, so she does not come in and say "I want to resolve this, let's talk" or something like that. She begins to taunt and bait me with things like "Oh, you have such a massive ego! Look at you! I have never seen anyone as arrogant as you!".


btw, I meant to tell you, when she does this, AGREE WITH HER!

"Why, wife, you're quite right! I DO have a good healthy-sized ego! And I'm really proud of myself, now that I'm finally achieving a good status in life. Aren't you?"

Turn it back on her. Laugh WITH her. Agree with her.

It completely takes the wind out of her sails. Nothing left to argue about. #1 approach for bullies.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> She seems enamored with a master-slave relationship that she claims her friends have.


Has she said this out loud to you? I wonder if she would be willing to say this out loud to a marriage counselor? Would you be able to present a case for how those men "yes, dear" their wives while doing whatever they want?


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## NobodySpecial

turnera said:


> btw, I meant to tell you, when she does this, AGREE WITH HER!
> 
> "Why, wife, you're quite right! I DO have a good healthy-sized ego! And I'm really proud of myself, now that I'm finally achieving a good status in life. Aren't you?"
> 
> Turn it back on her. Laugh WITH her. Agree with her.
> 
> It completely takes the wind out of her sails. Nothing left to argue about. #1 approach for bullies.


I agree with this. @MEM, this sounds right. Is this right?


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## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> Has she said this out loud to you? I wonder if she would be willing to say this out loud to a marriage counselor? Would you be able to present a case for how those men "yes, dear" their wives while doing whatever they want?


She hasn't used the word "slave" but she has said "You don't let me rule you. My other friends always tell their husbands what to do". She puts that down to my massive ego. She called me an MCP yesterday. So according to her, I need to bend over to her every demand, otherwise I am an MCP. Sure, play the gender card every time.

Now she takes care of our diet/nutrition so I listen to what she says. Also I don't like clothes shopping, she she buys and I wear. Isn't that listening to her?

But I have my views and opinions and I am not going to be cowed down. I don't fear her, and I think she likes the thought of her husband fearing her. I bet if I really feared her and cowered at her sight, she would lose respect for me completely. What's worse is I would lose respect for myself if that was the case.


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## nirvana

tom67 said:


> Let's see how long she wants to pull this.
> 
> No Nirvana wrong question it should be...
> 
> "How long am I going to TOLERATE this behavior"
> 
> Tell her "I can't control you but I can control what I will or will not put up with"
> Just saying.


Yes, but my goal is to fix things if possible. Divorce is the very last option and I am not thinking about it right now. I still think this is fixable. Divorce would be devastating for our kids and frankly I would be very sad as well. (she will also).

All this behavior is a power game on her part. I need to figure out how to neutralize it.

I have told her what you say above. She likes to pull me into arguments and fights for inane reasons and get into slanging matches where she gets to call me MCP and "egotistical" and all that. Why indulge her? I just don't take the bait anymore now.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> She hasn't used the word "slave" but she has said "You don't let me rule you. My other friends always tell their husbands what to do". She puts that down to my massive ego. She called me an MCP yesterday. So according to her, I need to bend over to her every demand, otherwise I am an MCP. Sure, play the gender card every time.


I don't know what an MCP is. 



> Now she takes care of our diet/nutrition so I listen to what she says. Also I don't like clothes shopping, she she buys and I wear. Isn't that listening to her?
> 
> But I have my views and opinions and I am not going to be cowed down. I don't fear her, and I think she likes the thought of her husband fearing her. I bet if I really feared her and cowered at her sight, she would lose respect for me completely. What's worse is I would lose respect for myself if that was the case.


She sounds massively insecure and immature. Is there any chance of getting into counseling? I cannot remember if you mentioned it. 

Otherwise, turnera's advice is solid. Don't run from who you are face it! Embrace it! Yes, my dear, this is who am I and what I want. Don't hide it in a closet.


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## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> I agree with this. @MEM, this sounds right. Is this right?


I actually told her this last week. I told her that a man without an ego is a total loser wimp. That did confuse her because in her mind ego is a bad thing. All winners have egos. She idolizes Steve Jobs, but he had a MASSIVE ego. He also had the motto of "Think Different". I have always thought different which is why my life has not been like most others, I have had different successes and failures from her friends husbands. She freaks out about the failures without looking at the successes. Why would she, it gives me power. She would rather look at the failures so she can beat me up about it.

It's all a power game. Yes, I have an ego. If I didn't, I would become a wimp like her father. Her dad will change what he tells you based on what you want to hear. No backbone at all. He constantly wants to be liked so will lie to you just to get you to like him. Ugh, I hate such personalities. Tell me the truth even if it is difficult to swallow, I will respect you more.


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## nirvana

NS, MCP means "Male Chauvinistic Pig". Used and misused often by women.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvinism#Male_chauvinism


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> Yes, but my goal is to fix things if possible. Divorce is the very last option and I am not thinking about it right now. I still think this is fixable. Divorce would be devastating for our kids and frankly I would be very sad as well. (she will also).
> 
> All this behavior is a power game on her part. I need to figure out how to neutralize it.
> 
> I have told her what you say above. She likes to pull me into arguments and fights for inane reasons and get into slanging matches where she gets to call me MCP and "egotistical" and all that. Why indulge her? I just don't take the bait anymore now.


If she is calling you names, that is a non-starter to any solution. She does not yet understand that there has to be one, that the game has changed. She can not mold you to her will by being a ***** as with years gone by. It is a simple, I will not be called names. When you are ready to talk in a civil way, let me know. And walk away.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> NS, MCP means "Male Chauvinistic Pig". Used and misused often by women.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvinism#Male_chauvinism


I certainly know what that is! Not very nice. And certainly not something you should take sitting down. An MCP is someone who does not let their wife "rule" them? Nuts.


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## turnera

nirvana said:


> All she does is complain about me. I don't do this, I don't do that. The more I do, the more she complains. She is never happy.


That's because you are being a Nice Guy. Nice Guys DO MORE to get their wives to appreciate them, but doing more (you're literally doing ALL the housework now) makes you LOOK WEAK to them. And women CANNOT STAND weak man.

So, duh, the more you do, the more she complains.

Stop doing.

You're both working. Hire a housekeeper. Stop emasculating yourself. Take your laundry to a dry cleaner to be laundered and ironed. Hire a cleaner to do everything but picking stuff up. Stop picking her stuff up, if you do it; throw all her stuff on the floor on her side of the bed. 

Let her see you respect yourself.

And read the book again.


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## tom67

turnera said:


> That's because you are being a Nice Guy. Nice Guys DO MORE to get their wives to appreciate them, but doing more (you're literally doing ALL the housework now) makes you LOOK WEAK to them. And women CANNOT STAND weak man.
> 
> So, duh, the more you do, the more she complains.
> 
> Stop doing.
> 
> You're both working. Hire a housekeeper. Stop emasculating yourself. Take your laundry to a dry cleaner to be laundered and ironed. Hire a cleaner to do everything but picking stuff up. Stop picking her stuff up, if you do it; throw all her stuff on the floor on her side of the bed.
> 
> Let her see you respect yourself.
> 
> And read the book again.


:iagree::iagree:
A maid service every two weeks on Saturday and take the kids out for breakfast if she wants to tag along fine if not oh well.


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## tom67

Between this thread and your other one here...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...r-calling-my-wife-regularly-drive-home-9.html

There is a loss of respect imo.


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## Cynthia

nirvana said:


> I think she makes enough, but now she does not call me for dinner or has the kids call or something like that. At this point, I cannot determine for sure that she does not make enough or keeps me out.


It is okay for her to have the kids call you to dinner. If you are not sure, then eat what she is serving and thank her for making it. That is basic polite behavior. This is not you bowing to her or giving into her bad behavior.



nirvana said:


> She basically wants me to bow down and make peace (she does not enjoy this situation) but is too proud to come say sorry, so she will try and bait me into another fight so I talk. So her "you cannot eat my cooking" is just to win the battle.


Eat her cooking. If there isn't enough, let her make more. The only way to deal with this kind of behavior is to address it and not let her get away with it. I realize the children are there, watching, and are subject to the hostile atmosphere, so be calm and peaceful, but assert yourself.



nirvana said:


> I'll read the article when I get home. I have no idea where the marriage is headed, but if it has to work, we both have to work on it. She seems enamored with a master-slave relationship that she claims her friends have. I told her clearly that for me, marriage is between equals and I want to treat my wife as a an equal. She is not above or below me. She is not my slave, neither am I hers. To that, she has no answer, so she wails about something I did in 2001 or how I insulted her in 2004 or something that may not have happened and in any case does not apply to 2015.


 When she starts in on the past, tell her to stop. You already addressed that and it's resolved. She is only trying to make trouble and you are not going to be sucked into drama.

I know this goes against your grain like fingernails on a chalkboard, but I recommend that you hire out for some household things. Instead of picking up her slack, hire out. She’s making money now, use her income to pay for it.

When we talk about confronting her, we are not talking about an angry confrontation. Anger is not necessary. Be calm and collected. Do not call her names. Specifically address the behavior. Do not give her a list. Address one issue at a time, when it occurs.

I recommend addressing her not speaking to you first. Let her know that her silent treatment is hostile. It makes a hostile atmosphere in the home, which is bad for the children. It makes them uncomfortable and sets a terrible example for them. Either she talks to you respectfully and you two work this out, or you can do it in counseling. If those are not acceptable to her, then it is time to start talking about where this marriage is going and what you are going to do about it. No more enabling her bad behavior.


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## nirvana

turnera said:


> That's because you are being a Nice Guy. Nice Guys DO MORE to get their wives to appreciate them, but doing more (you're literally doing ALL the housework now) makes you LOOK WEAK to them. And women CANNOT STAND weak man.
> 
> So, duh, the more you do, the more she complains.
> 
> Stop doing.
> 
> You're both working. Hire a housekeeper. Stop emasculating yourself. Take your laundry to a dry cleaner to be laundered and ironed. Hire a cleaner to do everything but picking stuff up. Stop picking her stuff up, if you do it; throw all her stuff on the floor on her side of the bed.
> 
> Let her see you respect yourself.
> 
> And read the book again.


Let me clarify.

We have hired a house cleaner who does the bathrooms and vacuums every 2 weeks or so. But with 2 kids and wife not enforcing any rules, it gets messy quickly. I am financially well off, but not as much as to hire someone every day. Besides, I am a firm believer of doing our work ourselves. I mow our lawn myself though I can easily afford to get it done. Besides, its a good example for the kids.

We have a washer dryer in our home, so why go through the hassle of driving to some place, picking it up and then paying also? I do my own laundry. I also do the kids many times. My wife insists on doing hers because she is picky so she does hers. I also iron my own, I don't iron any of hers. I don't pick her stuff up and fold it or anything, I just dump them all in her untidy walk in closet so she has to figure out how to deal with it. That is another reason why she was pissed with me when I cleaned up our bedroom. Those clothes were lying in the bedroom floor for WEEKS. I want to sleep in a nice clean room and will not let her mess it up. If she does, I react in a way that annoys her.


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## turnera

How old are your kids?


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## nirvana

New development.

My wife just called me. The job she was hoping to transfer to was given to someone from outside the company. She interviewed early September and did well. They interviewed some other people and according to internal info, they were no good. The big boss told her 1 week ago that they did not find anyone and she was pretty much sure to get that new role. Then he went on vacation.

Today HR told her the news that someone else got hired. 

She sound depressed over the phone. I just received the news, I did not say anything to make her feel better. I have gone through these situations many times but she was never there for me. In fact she gave me a flippant "you need to work harder" comment. Now she is on the other side. I just said "ahh... ok". The big boss had a lot of praise for her a few weeks ago, but as I told her long ago, it means diddly squat. What matters is the result in the end, which is that she did not get the job. She probably thought I was jealous when I tried to caution her. People say good things and pump you up when they need you and then when it comes to rewarding, they come up with excuses.

Her being a SAHM for years, she is used to things being completely in her control since the kids were small. Now she is learning that her control over things is not as good as she thought. Maybe her reasons for fighting with me was because she thought she was a superstar at work (from the praise she got) while I have had to struggle for everything. This hopefully will bring her ego down a few notches.

I did not gloat or say "I told you so". Will not do that. I wonder what she will do now. She was talking about looking for another job as she is overworked and underpaid. Welcome to the real world my dear... where there is no daddy to pander to your demands. 

I will not advise her either way. Unless she asks me.


----------



## Pluto2

geez, could you gloat a bit more over your spouse's bad news.


----------



## nirvana

Pluto2 said:


> geez, could you gloat a bit more over your spouse's bad news.


Not sure what you mean. 
I feel bad for her as I was her backers of her to apply for the job. HR told her she may make less money as the person in that role was junior, but I told her to go for it because the work would lead to better things. I would constantly tell her to bug the boss about the job because I was afraid too much delay will cause her to lose it.

On the positive side, she will realize that life isn't as easy as she thought and maybe she will understand what I go through everyday for them

What you read above is just fact of what happened. You are free to derive any meaning out of it as you feel.


----------



## MEM2020

*Ego descriptors*

This theme of a 'big' ego keeps coming up. 

IME: A healthy ego is a beautiful thing. A person with a healthy ego is:
- Largely self sustaining (knows when they do good or bad and they trust their own assessment of their contribution). They don't need to 'self promote'. 
- They are confident in areas they excel, a confidence based on a pattern of success. 
- Aware of strengths and weaknesses and comfortable with BOTH. When you critique them, they thank you for the feedback. 

People with a healthy ego, do not describe it in terms of its size. 

IME: Folks who self describe as having 'big egos' are generally more:
- Emotionally fragile/sensitive
- Easily offended and/or angered
- Hungry for compliments and praise from others
- Resistant to seeing their contribution to bad outcomes

While I generally believe that humor is a good thing. I would not make a joke from it if M2 said I have a massive ego. 

And given my view of such things, would not happily agree that I have a big ego. 

The self referential irony here is that the person with a 'big' ego is proud of their pride. 

Please note that a SINGLE tough question from Megan Kelly drove Trump off the walls with anger and bitterness for a solid month. Think about how 'fragile' that very large ego of his is. 



NobodySpecial said:


> I agree with this. @MEM, this sounds right. Is this right?


----------



## nirvana

*Re: Ego descriptors*



MEM11363 said:


> This theme of a 'big' ego keeps coming up.
> 
> IME: A healthy ego is a beautiful thing. A person with a healthy ego is:
> - Largely self sustaining (knows when they do good or bad and they trust their own assessment of their contribution). They don't need to 'self promote'.
> - They are confident in areas they excel, a confidence based on a pattern of success.
> - Aware of strengths and weaknesses and comfortable with BOTH. When you critique them, they thank you for the feedback.
> 
> People with a healthy ego, do not describe it in terms of its size.
> 
> IME: Folks who self describe as having 'big egos' are generally more:
> - Emotionally fragile/sensitive
> - Easily offended and/or angered
> - Hungry for compliments and praise from others
> - Resistant to seeing their contribution to bad outcomes
> 
> While I generally believe that humor is a good thing. I would not make a joke from it if M2 said I have a massive ego.
> 
> And given my view of such things, would not happily agree that I have a big ego.
> 
> The self referential irony here is that the person with a 'big' ego is proud of their pride.
> 
> Please note that a SINGLE tough question from Megan Kelly drove Trump off the walls with anger and bitterness for a solid month. Think about how 'fragile' that very large ego of his is.


Any self respecting man has an ego. Why is having an ego a bad thing? Our 11 year old son has a bit of an ego, he is very good in school (studies) and is among the top in sports and he plays basketball, tennis and soccer. My wife keeps telling him not to have an ego but I say have an ego which correlates to self confidence but make sure you don't overdo it and treat others badly. All winners and successful people have egos, some over the top of course.

My father in law is a complete walkover and is just not a man. He does not stand up for himself and is the ultimate beta. Of course, except with his own wife, whom he has tamed so well that she has no identity of her own. This was not uncommon in India among couples married in the 70s though, but he is too much. He is the opposite with his daughters and let them run riot. They did not drink, take drugs and sleep around or anything (not an easy thing in 80s/90s conservative India) but he tolerated all their blackmailing and drama. Now I am having to deal with the fallout. More in the next post.


----------



## nirvana

So I got back from work yesterday and my wife had returned from her work and taken our daughter to piano class. I went upstairs to watch an Indian show that I watch daily. We ignored each other. My son had basketball practice at 730pm that I was to take him to. Then my wife came to me as I was doing something on the computer and stood there. I did not react. She started to shout about my ego and what an awful creature I am and how she hated sex with me. Usual talk to get under my skin, break me and get ME to make peace and de-escalate. I was going to do no such thing. I just let her rant. Then she punched me in the shoulder. I calmly told her that if she did that again, I would call 911 and have the police on her for assault. She looked at the computer screen that had a lovey dovey family photo as background and asked me to take it down. Then she punched the monitor, luckily did not break it. Then she stormed out. She came back again and threatened to commit suicide and that I would see her dead body when I got back from basketball practice. I did not respond, I calmly left and took my son to practice. I confess I was a bit worried and usually I would have calmed her down at this point, but yesterday I just left without a word. One hour later when we got back, she was calmly talking to her parents over the phone. Of course, she was very much alive. It is Deepavali (also called Diwali), the Hindu festival of lights so she was making some sweets for the occasion. So that night we went to bed without a word facing opposite directions.

Cold War Day 4
This morning we both woke up and I made some cereal for myself and went upstairs. She was down in the kitchen. No words exchanged. Then she came upstairs and stood next to me as I was reading the news on the computer. And waited. Then the same old tried and tested tactics of behaving in a crazy way and threatening to self-injure in order to get me to de-escalate on an issue where she is guilty to begin with. She is not comfortable with this cold war and wants it to end, but wants to "win" it by having me make the move. Not going to happen this time. She told me how awful I am, how I did not care when she lost the job she wanted. Then she told me that her Aunt in India was diagnosed with last stage cancer. I knew that her parents were going to see her in the hospital but this was news to me. She was behaving like all of that was somehow my fault. She even said "happy? are you happy that I didn't get the job? You got what you wanted!!". This, after I had been her loudest cheerleader to apply for the position, had been guiding her on what to do, told her to be pro-active, even said it was okay to get paid less now but to get the experience and move on. And she accuses me of being happy about her loss. She is in crazy-land so I was not going to argue and fight. Then she asked if this was it, were we divorcing? I said she could decide what she wanted to do. So she said we were going to divorce and wanted to split the accounts. I did not reply. As I was leaving for work, she made her last move. She said that she was going to kill herself as she had nothing to live for and when I got back from work I would find her dead body. She said she been driving rashly on the way back and almost had a couple of accidents and I would hear about her in the news. I don't like such kind of talk but I was not going to back down now. She grabbed me as I was near the door and repeated her threat. I got free and drove away without a word. 

She waited for our daughter's school bus to arrive. I was tracking her on Find iPhone app and saw that she was doing everything she normally does and was driving to work. She called me once as I was entering the station at my destination and I did not pick up. Then she texted me that she was sorry and had no one in the world but me and she did not know what she did for me to react like this. Wow. And here I am thinking the same. She got pissed off on Saturday that she said she was unwell and I just said umm hmm and not much else. She's been acting crazy ever since. Then I reached work and called her and let her talk. She said she was stressed out and was very sorry and will do whatever I wanted her to do and did not want to extend this cold war any more. Diwali was going on and she wanted it to be a happy occasion. Normally, I would say it's okay and make peace without letting her feel like she "lost" but I cannot do that anymore. She needs to "lose" otherwise we all lose as a family. I said what I basically wanted from her was that I wanted a wife, not an immature brat. I wanted someone who loved me, not controlled and manipulated me. She said if we talked more she will cry, so we can talk during lunch so that is where we are. She said she did not want to die and it would not help anyone and it would be our loss. OK, some smarter talk.

I am not backing down this time. I disregarded her suicide threats twice in the last 2 days so she knows I am not fvcking around and am dead serious. She is still an immature person though she is in her late 30s. All the drama and theatrics of shouting and jumping up and down and acting like a crazed person worked on daddy, so she's been using it on me consistently for years. It's been my dream to have a wife as an equal who I can discuss everything with. She is beautiful, has a great figure and is intelligent, but terribly immature and manipulative. My wife is unfortunately not where she should be, so until then, I will have to be the benevolent "boss" of the house. If I let up, then she will revert back to blackmailing and manipulating.


----------



## Pluto2

I understand that you and I do not see the situation the same way, but it honestly comes across that you want your W to "lose" so that you can "win." I'm not talking about her, her threats of suicide are quite ill and very sad. I'm talking about your need to win this game you are playing. And you are playing a game.


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## turnera

I'm really impressed. And enjoy reading your tongue-in-cheek Cold War updates. She would have been unhappy, had you capitulated. She might not have KNOWN she was unhappy, but she would have been. Stay strong, but don't forget to remind her at least once in each conversation that you DO love her and DO want to be married to her, but you cannot continue in such a one-sided relationship; you want it to be better for BOTH of you. Let her see you respecting yourself. 

Also, I think it's a good time to start explaining to her what you've said about how she used these tactics on her dad (so they are now hardwired into her brain as her go-to method), but you are NOT her dad, you're her equal and partner, so it's time to let go of controlling tactics and reach for a mutually beneficial approach. I doubt she has any idea she's repeating what worked on her dad to get her way. Point it out to her. Talk a LOT (as long as she's not treating you like crap), reassure that you want her, but also reassure that you won't stay unless things change.

Overall, one of my favorite success stories.


----------



## turnera

Pluto2 said:


> I understand that you and I do not see the situation the same way, but it honestly comes across that you want your W to "lose" so that you can "win." I'm not talking about her, her threats of suicide are quite ill and very sad. I'm talking about your need to win this game you are playing. And you are playing a game.


I disagree. I see that he has reached a point where he knows things have to change, that she is incapable of seeing this on her own, and that - to have a good marriage - he has to finally put his foot down and set some boundaries on decent behavior; it's basically the tipping point of their relationship. I get that you don't like the way he chooses words, but I understand completely what he's doing, and it is in no way to 'win' or 'dominate' - but rather to guide the TWO of them toward a mutually beneficial relationship. One in which SHE will ALSO be happier.


----------



## tom67

Immature bi polar or bpd or a mix of all of them can you live with someone like this?
In my opinion this will get worse without ic first then maybe mc.

If she doesn't want help well...

:crying:


----------



## Pluto2

turnera said:


> I disagree. I see that he has reached a point where he knows things have to change, that she is incapable of seeing this on her own, and that - to have a good marriage - he has to finally put his foot down and set some boundaries on decent behavior; it's basically the tipping point of their relationship. I get that you don't like the way he chooses words, but I understand completely what he's doing, and it is in no way to 'win' or 'dominate' - but rather to guide the TWO of them toward a mutually beneficial relationship. One in which SHE will ALSO be happier.


That would be nice, but I sincerely doubt that will be the result, just my two cents. I'll keep quiet and wish you luck.


----------



## tom67

turnera said:


> I'm really impressed. And enjoy reading your tongue-in-cheek Cold War updates. She would have been unhappy, had you capitulated. She might not have KNOWN she was unhappy, but she would have been. Stay strong, but don't forget to remind her at least once in each conversation that you DO love her and DO want to be married to her, but you cannot continue in such a one-sided relationship; you want it to be better for BOTH of you. Let her see you respecting yourself.
> 
> Also, I think it's a good time to start explaining to her what you've said about how she used these tactics on her dad (so they are now hardwired into her brain as her go-to method), but you are NOT her dad, you're her equal and partner, so it's time to let go of controlling tactics and reach for a mutually beneficial approach. I doubt she has any idea she's repeating what worked on her dad to get her way. Point it out to her. Talk a LOT (as long as she's not treating you like crap), reassure that you want her, but also reassure that you won't stay unless things change.
> 
> Overall, one of my favorite success stories.


Learned behavior good point T.


----------



## nirvana

Pluto2 said:


> I understand that you and I do not see the situation the same way, but it honestly comes across that you want your W to "lose" so that you can "win." I'm not talking about her, her threats of suicide are quite ill and very sad. I'm talking about your need to win this game you are playing. And you are playing a game.


We are just getting into semantics here... but the suicide talk is just drama and I finally called her bluff on that. I expect her, as my wife and as someone who I know to be very intelligent to talk to me and discuss and work things out, not blackmail with threats. Threats will not work anymore.


----------



## Pluto2

nirvana said:


> We are just getting into semantics here... but the suicide talk is just drama and I finally called her bluff on that. I expect her, as my wife and as someone who I know to be very intelligent to talk to me and discuss and work things out, not blackmail with threats. Threats will not work anymore.


OP, my point is that neither you or any of us here are qualified to determine whether her threats of self-harm are manipulative or genuine. You think so, and so far you are correct. So far. And if you're correct and it is just drama, are you qualified to treat her mental disorder that led her to believe these threats were an appropriate way to achieve her goal? And if your plan fails and she decides to escalate out of desperation to a point of actually harming? This is why I see this as a game. But I told Turnera, I would keep quiet on this. So I honestly wish you good luck. I'm out.


----------



## Tron

tom67 said:


> Immature bi polar or bpd or a mix of all of them can you live with someone like this?
> In my opinion this will get worse without ic first then maybe mc.
> 
> If she doesn't want help well...
> 
> :crying:


I will reserve judgment on whether she has PD at this point.

There is no question however, that Nirvana's wife is quite comfortable using any and all manipulative tactics she can to accomplish her goals...including emotional blackmail. 

And Nirvana, that is exactly what threatening to divorce or kill herself is if she doesn't get her way or you capitulate.

I would have some frank discussions with her about this. It is not healthy for her, for you, for the marriage and will have devastating effects on your children.

There may be some good books out there to help you deal with it, but she has to come to recognize that this is who she is and it is UGLY.


----------



## nirvana

turnera said:


> I'm really impressed. And enjoy reading your tongue-in-cheek Cold War updates. She would have been unhappy, had you capitulated. She might not have KNOWN she was unhappy, but she would have been. Stay strong, but don't forget to remind her at least once in each conversation that you DO love her and DO want to be married to her, but you cannot continue in such a one-sided relationship; you want it to be better for BOTH of you. Let her see you respecting yourself.
> 
> Also, I think it's a good time to start explaining to her what you've said about how she used these tactics on her dad (so they are now hardwired into her brain as her go-to method), but you are NOT her dad, you're her equal and partner, so it's time to let go of controlling tactics and reach for a mutually beneficial approach. I doubt she has any idea she's repeating what worked on her dad to get her way. Point it out to her. Talk a LOT (as long as she's not treating you like crap), reassure that you want her, but also reassure that you won't stay unless things change.
> 
> Overall, one of my favorite success stories.


Thanks turnera, but I still don't think it's a success story yet. I thought we solved this after October before the bad relapse. I think the major gain from the past couple of days is that the "I am a crazy person who has no control of herself and I can do ANYTHING, so you better do what I want" act has been blunted and I doubt if she will use it again. 

I still will not show her all my cards and try to normalize things because knowing her and knowing how the Indian mind works, she will take it like I want peace and the old games will begin again. I have the upper hand now and I will have to use it for the good of the family. If I had capitulated like her dad always did, she would have taken her act to new heights. 

I'll have a calm discussion with her in the evening and maintain the upper hand on her. Yes, I will convey that I "won" even though I don't like this to be a win lose thing because in reality even if she loses, and I "win", we all lose. A family cannot win if the woman of the house is unhappy.

All I want is for her to treat me like a woman should treat her husband. Her inferiority complex has taught her to hero worship those women who treat, or claim to treat their husbands like crap. The only problem is that does not work with me. She can make me do anything for her with a hug and a kiss. Why is it better to bully than to love?

As for her work situation, I bet she is feeling awful and cheated, but it could be a valuable lesson for her. She, just like her dad is a sucker for praise. If someone says sweet words, they become "good people". In effect those people can control her using sweet words. Now I hope she will learn how fake the world can be and that people don't really like her when they say such sweet things. They say it because they want you to do things for them. The moment the job is done, then they don't need you and the sweet words stop. In this particular case, I think there is some cheating going on. Her company hires another company to bring in candidates and I suspect that the manager gets a cut from each hire. So moving my wife into the job will not make him any money. Hiring someone from outside gets him the cut. I know how people from the manager's home-state in India behave, they are money minded and will go to any level to make money.


----------



## nirvana

Tron said:


> I will reserve judgment on whether she has PD at this point.
> 
> There is no question however, that Nirvana's wife is quite comfortable using any and all manipulative tactics she can to accomplish her goals...including emotional blackmail.
> 
> And Nirvana, that is exactly what threatening to divorce or kill herself is if she doesn't get her way or you capitulate.
> 
> I would have some frank discussions with her about this. It is not healthy for her, for you, for the marriage and will have devastating effects on your children.
> 
> There may be some good books out there to help you deal with it, but she has to come to recognize that this is who she is and it is UGLY.


It's the first time I called her bluff on the killing herself threat, I suspect she will not use it again. I am sure she might have used it with her father in the past, I am not sure. While driving to work, I was a bit worried since there is always a 1% chance that in her state of mind, she might try to hurt herself for attention or pity but it seems like it was all a big show.


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## Tron

She will use it or something similar again and again until you recognize it for what it is and address it consistently the same way every time.

You did good today. I bet it feels great!


----------



## turnera

nirvana said:


> I'll have a calm discussion with her in the evening and maintain the upper hand on her. Yes, I will convey that I "won" even though I don't like this to be a win lose thing because in reality even if she loses, and I "win", we all lose. A family cannot win if the woman of the house is unhappy.
> 
> All I want is for her to treat me like a woman should treat her husband. Her inferiority complex has taught her to hero worship those women who treat, or claim to treat their husbands like crap. The only problem is that does not work with me. She can make me do anything for her with a hug and a kiss. Why is it better to bully than to love?


Don't do that. Don't convey anything other than "I love you and I want to be married to you but this isn't working. I'm ready to go to counseling with you to discuss a situation that's fair to both of us, I'm willing to discuss anything you want, I'm just not willing to beg forgiveness for something I haven't done. Walk this path with me."

And are you telling her what you think about her inferiority complex? Many people, it simply never occurs to them to look inward and see stuff like that, so it's possible that if you discuss that with her, it will resonate, and you two can become a team in finding a fix for it. And isn't that what a marriage is supposed to be - a team?

btw, if a suicide threat comes again, from what I've learned, you are supposed to say "If you threaten suicide, I will have to call for an ambulance, to protect you." And that most people who are bluffing will stop using it, as they don't want the embarrassment of an ambulance pulling up. Plus, they WILL at least get looked at.


----------



## nirvana

Tron said:


> She will use it or something similar again and again until you recognize it for what it is and address it consistently the same way every time.
> 
> You did good today. I bet it feels great!


Yes, most definitely. This has worked for a long time so I can see it being used again. Or if I am lucky she will move past it these silly tricks.


----------



## nirvana

turnera said:


> Don't do that. Don't convey anything other than "I love you and I want to be married to you but this isn't working. I'm ready to go to counseling with you to discuss a situation that's fair to both of us, I'm willing to discuss anything you want, I'm just not willing to beg forgiveness for something I haven't done. Walk this path with me."
> 
> And are you telling her what you think about her inferiority complex? Many people, it simply never occurs to them to look inward and see stuff like that, so it's possible that if you discuss that with her, it will resonate, and you two can become a team in finding a fix for it. And isn't that what a marriage is supposed to be - a team?
> 
> btw, if a suicide threat comes again, from what I've learned, you are supposed to say "If you threaten suicide, I will have to call for an ambulance, to protect you." And that most people who are bluffing will stop using it, as they don't want the embarrassment of an ambulance pulling up. Plus, they WILL at least get looked at.


Yes, I am not begging for anything. I have apologized in the past when I said rude things but I am absolutely not going to put up with sh!tty behavior just because she has backache from her period or something like that. I am not her punching bag. She obviously does not yell at her boss at work or her friends during this time, so why should I be treated any worse when I am the only one who really cares about her?

The stress from the Cold War gets on her nerves and her maximum limit is about 3 days, so I knew that a climb down was coming. I am okay with it as long as it is on my terms. And my terms are really simple, treat everyone, especially me with respect. Be nice and womanly. Bullying will never work with me so don't even try. She actually wanted to end the Cold War on her terms (hence the suicide threat) but when she saw her last card not working, she gave up. I don't think she will use it again because she hopefully sees that it is useless.

I have told her about the inferiority complex and she even agrees when she is in her sane phase. When she is not, then all her bad habits inherited from Daddy come to the fore.

Let's see what transpires when we meet after work in the evening.


----------



## turnera

nirvana said:


> Yes, I am not begging for anything.


No, I meant do not do the 'maintain the upper hand,' and 'convey that I have won' stuff. 



> I'll have a calm discussion with her in the evening and maintain the upper hand on her. Yes, I will convey that I "won"


This isn't about winning and if you approach it with that attitude, she'll have no choice but to retreat from you, as you would be saying it's you against her. You want her to embrace you, not retreat.

Nice Guys say "I have won." Out of weakness. Strong, NON-Nice Guys simply acknowledge the change in her attitude, and move on.

Pluto is right in that you tend to get a little over-zealous about getting your way. That's a Nice Guy attribute, a weakness from NOT getting your way for so long. As I've said, continue to make this about going on a path TOGETHER.


----------



## nirvana

turnera, that's what I meant when I said "won". If she is miserable, I do not consider it to be a victory for me. It will be true victory when all of us are happy. 

Maybe you are right about being over-zealous, and the cause. I have put up with so much crap from her and I don't see a way to make her happy because the goalpost keeps moving. Other people express amazement about how I have managed things financially, but not one good word from my own wife. She's taken it all for granted. So this could very well be a NG attitude. Coupled with that, I had job worries which are resolved now (and hopefully won't raise its head again). 

The problem is I don't have confidence in her maturity or willingness to take ownership in all of us being happy as a family. If I relax, then I feel that she will go back to her old tricks of manipulation because that is normal behavior. Maybe in time, I will ease up.

I'll let her start the conversation this evening. We aren't done yet.


----------



## MEM2020

Turnera,

I wish I could 'like' your post 100 times. 

The biggest differences between the 'nice guy' and 'effective guy' approaches are as follows:
- 'Nice guy' is more focused on what has happened. 
- 'Effective guy' is more focused on what he WANTS to happen differently going forward.
- 'Nice guy' is more focused on extracting an apology for the bad stuff his partner has already done.
- 'Effective guy' leads the conversation down a different path. More of a: I'm here to support you, maybe we can try to make more of an effort to be honest with each other when we need support. 

What do you think will happen if you say: my back/head hurts and I'm in a bad mood. 

The subtext is: do you trust me to be supportive? 

The thing about 'effective guy', is that he responds to the answer in a constructive manner. 

She may be brutally honest here and whine about how he wasn't supportive when she didn't get the job. 

He can be honest about that: It's difficult to be the 'medic', when the person who needs your help is treating you like the enemy. 

What I'm asking is, next time, just tell me what hurts. Make the leap of faith that I'll support you. 

--------
The other side of this coin is far, far more difficult. It's the 'ask'. This is some version of: Somehow we have gotten so far off track, that it doesn't feel like you are happy for me, when I succeed. I want us to find a way to collaborate more and compete less. 




turnera said:


> No, I meant do not do the 'maintain the upper hand,' and 'convey that I have won' stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't about winning and if you approach it with that attitude, she'll have no choice but to retreat from you, as you would be saying it's you against her. You want her to embrace you, not retreat.
> 
> Nice Guys say "I have won." Out of weakness. Strong, NON-Nice Guys simply acknowledge the change in her attitude, and move on.
> 
> Pluto is right in that you tend to get a little over-zealous about getting your way. That's a Nice Guy attribute, a weakness from NOT getting your way for so long. As I've said, continue to make this about going on a path TOGETHER.


----------



## MEM2020

Nirvana,

In a weird way, I absolutely would describe what you just did as 'relaxing'. 

Regardless of how you felt internally, you showed faith that everything would resolve if you were patient. 

I don't blame you for the 911 comment. It is NOT ok for N2 to slug you when she's upset. 

You demonstrated a high level of situation awareness when N2 was being intensely aggressive and doing her absolute best to destabilize you. You recognized that her bad behavior was 'about her', not about you. 

Unfortunately you two do have a bit of a punching bag dynamic - see below. And that will take some patience and effort to change. 

Sadly, N2's 'go to' move when she is feeling bad, is to attempt to make herself feel 'less weak', by upsetting you. 

This is where a lot of folks struggle. M2 and I certainly did. That punching bag dynamic thrives in the darkness. It tends to melt away when confronted in a low key manner. 

Nowadays it is very rare for that to happen, but when it does I have learned to respond in a way that is very effective. 

In the 'old model', I'd say: that is not acceptable. 

While that is true, it's not especially effective. It comes across as: stop being such a biatch

In the new model I say in a very soft voice: Hey, I'm the medic, not the enemy soldier. 

And like N2, sometimes M2 just needs some time to 'self settle'. And that's ok. M2 is not patient. 

But if M2 resumes hostilities despite being reminded I'm the medic, 
I just shrug and say: Not putting my stethoscope on with all these bullets flying, it amplifies the gunshots, hurts my ears. 

The humor itself is not as important as the state of mind it represents. Humor is the ultimate show of internal calm. And in this type situation, calm can be contagious. 

That said, pat yourself on the back. You were the immovable object in the face of a 'total war' strategy. Didn't react to threats about: 
- Divorce 
- Suicide 
- Sexual prowess

And handled the physical violence in a low key manner. 











nirvana said:


> turnera, that's what I meant when I said "won". If she is miserable, I do not consider it to be a victory for me. It will be true victory when all of us are happy.
> 
> Maybe you are right about being over-zealous, and the cause. I have put up with so much crap from her and I don't see a way to make her happy because the goalpost keeps moving. Other people express amazement about how I have managed things financially, but not one good word from my own wife. She's taken it all for granted. So this could very well be a NG attitude. Coupled with that, I had job worries which are resolved now (and hopefully won't raise its head again).
> 
> The problem is I don't have confidence in her maturity or willingness to take ownership in all of us being happy as a family. If I relax, then I feel that she will go back to her old tricks of manipulation because that is normal behavior. Maybe in time, I will ease up.
> 
> I'll let her start the conversation this evening. We aren't done yet.


----------



## nirvana

MEM, what do N2 and M2 mean?


----------



## Blondilocks

N2 is your wife and M2 is Mem's. Simply because the first letter in your name is N and M is Mem's. The two comes because she is your spouse.


----------



## farsidejunky

Nirvana:

Wasn't her capitulation what you were looking for?

Why would you crush her after she has given up by conveying your win?

You can help her through this without it being a zero sum game.


----------



## nirvana

Day 4 - evening

So I got back from work yesterday and expected that after all her "I have no one but you" texts, she will want to proactively make peace and recognize her behavior. Nothing of that sort. We continued to behave like room mates. We had that Diwali "service" at home and she called me and we did it. My cynical mind wonders if she was just pretending to make peace because she wanted me to not boycott the event? She is very religious and god-fearing, though her behavior is not very spiritual. It was the same later that evening.

Day 5
We both woke up and still it's the same situation. No "I am crazy" kind of hostility, but she came by and stood as I was having breakfast, expecting me to say something. I did not. Then she said she was taking a sick day from work. I said okay. Her car is on low gas and I am the one who typically fills her car up, gives it for maintenance etc. I do it for love, not for any other reason. She angrily asks me what she should do since she's run out of gas. I said I don't know, there is a container of gas in the garage if she needed some. She grumbled a bit about how I did not know to take care of my family. See what I mean - the entitlement? Maybe I am guilty of feeding it. Then she said "I am anyway the slave of the house... for 15 years...". Whatever. Blackmailing and trying to guilt me won't work anymore.

After not making my lunch for 3 days, she made me a sandwich. I did not take it, I'll eat out. That is what I will do, iron my own clothes and eat out during lunch. She said she spent 10 minutes on it, and I said she can have it for lunch and left. 

Bottom line, the issue continues, she probably was making temporary peace to get me to go all the way and now I am not so she is surprised. I am not bowing down to this bullying. I want a wife, not a brat. If I cannot have it, then might as well not have it at all.She may be making a last ditch effort to normalize and come out a "winner" (if I have have to ask for peace, that makes her a winner in her mind).


----------



## nirvana

farsidejunky said:


> Nirvana:
> 
> Wasn't her capitulation what you were looking for?
> 
> Why would you crush her after she has given up by conveying your win?
> 
> You can help her through this without it being a zero sum game.



What makes you think I am trying to crush her?
What makes you think she capitulated?


----------



## nirvana

She just called me to talk about some insurance thing and then turned the convo into this issue and is trying to make it into "let's end this" and "both of us need to change". Whatever, that is not acceptable. And I will not discuss this over the phone. She needs to grow up and learn to respect people. Until then this will continue.


----------



## turnera

Patience, nirvana. If the subject comes up, reassure her that you DO want to be married to her, you just won't accept what you had; you deserve respect. All she has to do is say 'you're right, you deserve respect,' and you'll be back to being a loving, dutiful husband. And if being 'right' is more important to her than being married, well, so be it. It's her choice.


----------



## farsidejunky

nirvana said:


> What makes you think I am trying to crush her?
> What makes you think she capitulated?


Do you have any idea how painful it is to someone, with the maturity and emotional issues that your wife has, to admit when she is wrong?

Then to continue to communicate you have won to her shows that her instinct that she must not admit failure or fault (at any cost) was just proven right.

When she submits, comfort her. When she fights, do exactly as you are doing by taking the fuel from her fire.

Do you understand what I mean by zero sum?


----------



## nirvana

turnera said:


> Patience, nirvana. If the subject comes up, reassure her that you DO want to be married to her, you just won't accept what you had; you deserve respect. All she has to do is say 'you're right, you deserve respect,' and you'll be back to being a loving, dutiful husband. And if being 'right' is more important to her than being married, well, so be it. It's her choice.


I told her that I did not want to discuss this over the phone. I made that mistake years ago when I would discuss things like this over email and phone and that would not lead anywhere. So I only discuss this in person now.

Her complaint is "you never listen to me". I asked her for examples and she didn't remember. I eat what she makes with no complaints and I wear what she tells me to wear. Like I said earlier, she is easily influenced by other people and their "awesome" lives (while accumulating debt) and I am not willing to let us go down that route because if I do, I will be the one digging us out of it. I know of so many of our friends in the debt hole and one just declared bankruptcy. Whenever she asks for something, I go around and look for the best deal and make sure we really want it. Yes it takes time, but she has what she wants and has a good house, car etc. Some people just don't know how to be happy. In fact my mother made that same comment about her to me yesterday. If 99 things go well and 1 goes badly, my wife will fixate on that 1 thing. I allow purchases only if we can afford it and when I feel comfortable financially. Even my fancy car that I got last Dec was after I felt okay. Until then I was driving my beatup 17 year old car with no shame. 

When I get home, she will want to talk and turn this into a "both are wrong" stalemate like we do always. That is also okay as long as I get my demands met, and I am willing to meet hers. This cannot be one-way. I cannot tolerate her insulting childish behavior anymore.


----------



## nirvana

farsidejunky said:


> Do you have any idea how painful it is to someone, with the maturity and emotional issues that your wife has, to admit when she is wrong?
> 
> Then to continue to communicate you have won to her shows that her instinct that she must not admit failure or fault (at any cost) was just proven right.
> 
> When she submits, comfort her. When she fights, do exactly as you are doing by taking the fuel from her fire.
> 
> Do you understand what I mean by zero sum?



I used the word "won" in quotes. I did not use the word while talking to her, so I am not taking any perverse pleasure here. She has talked insultingly about my career issues, but I did not do the same when she did not get the job change she wanted. I hope this has taught her that she can do everything well and still not get what she thinks she deserves. I will not discuss it, she should draw her own conclusions. 

I see what you are saying above, but I am not communicating to her that I have won. There is no real winning here, but I need to get her to mature and cut the drama queen crap.

She has kind of submitted (she want to talk) and I will talk but I will also have to be firm otherwise the results will be like all these times.


----------



## Cynthia

It is good that you are not going to fall into her traps any longer. Be patient with her. Do not get angry with her. Be kind. As farsidejunky said, it is hard for her to admit she is wrong. She is very immature and entitled. Help her relax by being gentle with her and not taking an adversarial attitude. You want what is best for both of you. You are trying to do the right thing. She may think this is about winning and losing, but you are learning that is not the case. In a win-lose situation, it is a competition or a fight. It is an adversarial relationship. Marriage is supposed to be an embracing, supporting, and loving relationship.
Regarding the lunch she made you. It would have been better if you had thanked her and taken the sandwich. Encourage her in doing what is right. Do not discourage her efforts to make progress.


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## nirvana

CynthiaDe said:


> It is good that you are not going to fall into her traps any longer. Be patient with her. Do not get angry with her. Be kind. As farsidejunky said, it is hard for her to admit she is wrong. She is very immature and entitled. Help her relax by being gentle with her and not taking an adversarial attitude. You want what is best for both of you. You are trying to do the right thing. She may think this is about winning and losing, but you are learning that is not the case. In a win-lose situation, it is a competition or a fight. It is an adversarial relationship. Marriage is supposed to be an embracing, supporting, and loving relationship.
> Regarding the lunch she made you. It would have been better if you had thanked her and taken the sandwich. Encourage her in doing what is right. Do not discourage her efforts to make progress.


Yes, she's even said and I quote "I cannot WIN with you... I just cannot WIN". For me, it is not I win and you lose... we both can win and have to win together. It is possible. 

I think she is still trying to see if she can wangle a "win" (whatever that means). We might discuss this when I get home and I will be very patient and calm with her. She will be looking to raise the temperature because she can use that to prove how bad I am and how good she is.

The problem with the lunch is that it becomes a tool of control, not a gesture of love. Until we resolve these issues, I am wary of being dependent on her in any way.


----------



## MEM2020

Nirvana,
Overall you are handling this very well. A couple gentle observations. 

She made you lunch as an olive branch. It is difficult for her to extend an olive branch - because she has a large, fragile, ego. So that was actually a big step for her. 

Accepting her sandwich does not make you dependent on her. And in fact it allows this subtle, low key reconciliation to begin. 

She makes you a sandwich. And you say: Thank you for making me lunch, that was very nice of you. 

This doesn't mean you are 'giving in'. Or showing weakness. Quite the opposite. It means that you are in a calm, relaxed state. Able to see a good faith olive branch for what it is. 

As for this whole - we were both at fault - routine. Don't know what to say. 

If I do something that upsets M2 - regardless of the right or wrong of it - I say: I'm sorry I upset you, that wasn't my intent.

Or if what I did was just wrong I say I'm sorry I did that, it was wrong. 

But I absolutely don't do 'blind apologies'. And I have been asked to a couple times. A blind apology is when you say your sorry even though the other person won't say what it is you did that upset them. That is a total 'no go' with me. I have no trouble apologizing. But to be asked do it with no understanding of what it's for, is ludicrous. 

And fair warning on this. M2 was FULL of mischief the last time this happened. And she gave me this intense sexual vibe in our hotel room before asking me for the blind apology. 

That was some ugly stuff. I don't buy sex. And for certain don't pay for it by saying stuff that I don't mean. 

Two days later I got this email with the most profuse apology I've ever seen. 

This stuff is typically very draining emotionally. 




nirvana said:


> Yes, she's even said and I quote "I cannot WIN with you... I just cannot WIN". For me, it is not I win and you lose... we both can win and have to win together. It is possible.
> 
> I think she is still trying to see if she can wangle a "win" (whatever that means). We might discuss this when I get home and I will be very patient and calm with her. She will be looking to raise the temperature because she can use that to prove how bad I am and how good she is.
> 
> The problem with the lunch is that it becomes a tool of control, not a gesture of love. Until we resolve these issues, I am wary of being dependent on her in any way.


----------



## MEM2020

Nirvana,

If you can do this - with a sincere and soft tone - it might help both of you. 

When she says she can't win, ask her: What is it you want to win? I genuinely want to understand. 

And then try to steer this conversation towards how a healthy marriage is mostly collaboration and ideally very little competition. 

Because the 'punching bag' routine is entirely rooted in a 'win/loss' model. The abuser 'feels' weak, by stomping on their partner, that makes them feel temporarily stronger. For the abuser to win (feel better), the abused has to lose (feel worse). 

This next bit, is what will determine whether you 'nail it, or fail it'. If you are focused on her, on understanding what she is really thinking and feeling, this will go well. If you are focused on yourself and what you want, this won't go so well. 

If you stay calm, it will be obvious. If you allow her to get you agitated, if you get riled up to the point you have to walk out of the room, that's a train wreck. 

And it's OK to address this issue regarding her friends. Ask her who her 'role model' couple is. And why. 

If the guy in that couple is a doormat, just smile. And ask her: Do you think role model(wife) is in love with role model(husband)? 

Perhaps you might want a role model couple of your own to reference. 




nirvana said:


> Yes, she's even said and I quote "I cannot WIN with you... I just cannot WIN". For me, it is not I win and you lose... we both can win and have to win together. It is possible.
> 
> I think she is still trying to see if she can wangle a "win" (whatever that means). We might discuss this when I get home and I will be very patient and calm with her. She will be looking to raise the temperature because she can use that to prove how bad I am and how good she is.
> 
> The problem with the lunch is that it becomes a tool of control, not a gesture of love. Until we resolve these issues, I am wary of being dependent on her in any way.


----------



## nirvana

MEM, maybe that is the case. Quite possible. I am just tired of the emotional roller coaster that my wife puts me through. If something goes wrong for her, it is because of me, and she assumes that I must be happy. If something goes wrong for me, then it is again my fault as she says I did not do something. It's actually I who cannot win with her, even though she has been given the best life among all her friends. She was about to be a SAHM when she wanted, and then take up a job when she wanted. She seems to think that others have this great life, from their pictures on Facebook and their boasting. Indians are notorious for that.

Anyway, I'll see where she wants to take things from here. Trust me, I am not enjoying this myself either. But there comes a time when I have to put my foot down otherwise I'll just get washed away.


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## ButtPunch

@jld 

You may be in the right but you still need to make her feel safe when she is vulnerable with you.


----------



## MEM2020

Nirvana,
She's not happy with herself. The result is that normal life hiccups cause her much more distress than they would a normal person. 

Blaming you is just the easy path to avoiding responsibility. 

This is not a financial issue as you have already provided a very nice environment. It's a core values and responsibility issue. 

All that said, here's the drill. If you show any battle fatigue, she may try to wait you out. 

Right now the only way she knows how to feel less bad, is by winning. The only way to change that dynamic is for you to be the immovable object. 




nirvana said:


> MEM, maybe that is the case. Quite possible. I am just tired of the emotional roller coaster that my wife puts me through. If something goes wrong for her, it is because of me, and she assumes that I must be happy. If something goes wrong for me, then it is again my fault as she says I did not do something. It's actually I who cannot win with her, even though she has been given the best life among all her friends. She was about to be a SAHM when she wanted, and then take up a job when she wanted. She seems to think that others have this great life, from their pictures on Facebook and their boasting. Indians are notorious for that.
> 
> Anyway, I'll see where she wants to take things from here. Trust me, I am not enjoying this myself either. But there comes a time when I have to put my foot down otherwise I'll just get washed away.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> @jld
> 
> You may be in the right but you still need to make her feel safe when she is vulnerable with you.


I did not post in this thread. Are you confusing me with someone else?


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I did not post in this thread. Are you confusing me with someone else?


Nope I think the OP could use some of your vulnerability advice.


----------



## turnera

nirvana, what everyone's suggesting today is the same thing I've been telling you - that it's important for you to finally stand up for yourself, but you HAVE to make it clear to her that you are doing so from a position of LOVE. That you WANT her, you LOVE her, you want nothing except to be married to her, just that you want it to be an equal partnership. That's why I keep telling you to bring the love into every conversation. She needs to have hope because in her low self esteem, she's NOT seeing the love, just her unworthiness.


----------



## ButtPunch

MEM11363 said:


> The only way to change that dynamic is for you to be the immovable object.


I couldn't say this any better. Be strong during her emotional roller coaster but make her feel safe when the time comes for her to be rewarded. With her low self esteem, you need to help build her up. She can't do it alone.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Getting a lot of good advice here, Nirvana.


----------



## MEM2020

Nirvana,

But this is partly about you. It's your screen name. Your baseline anxiety level is a little higher than you'd like. This helps you at work. It's partly why you succeed. You worry about stuff, it makes you work harder. I'm the same way. 

But at home, this baseline anxiety was a gigantic handicap. 

Maybe this is totally different for you but - for us - it dysfunctioned like this:

I was already a bit tense from work when I got home. And if M2 was upset about something, that made me MORE tense/anxious. 

So I would try to quickly and efficiently fix her problem. But my motive was selfish. It was solely driven by my desire to lower my own anxiety level. That pattern actually caused us a lot of conflict. 

I don't do that anymore. Don't try and fix her. I listen. In terms of words, this is a 90-10 ratio, with me adding maybe 10%. 
- Long full body hug 
- Soft tone of voice
- Strong eye contact while she speaks
- Relaxed body language 

Maybe we go for a walk. 




nirvana said:


> MEM, maybe that is the case. Quite possible. I am just tired of the emotional roller coaster that my wife puts me through. If something goes wrong for her, it is because of me, and she assumes that I must be happy. If something goes wrong for me, then it is again my fault as she says I did not do something. It's actually I who cannot win with her, even though she has been given the best life among all her friends. She was about to be a SAHM when she wanted, and then take up a job when she wanted. She seems to think that others have this great life, from their pictures on Facebook and their boasting. Indians are notorious for that.
> 
> Anyway, I'll see where she wants to take things from here. Trust me, I am not enjoying this myself either. But there comes a time when I have to put my foot down otherwise I'll just get washed away.


----------



## Blondilocks

Does this woman really have low self-esteem or is she simply reacting to all the glamorous stories her friends and neighbors are telling her?

She is doing herself a disservice by throwing her constant pity parties. If she wants to one-up the Jones', she has plenty of areas in her life that she could brag about.

It seems that I've only known Indians who were raised in England and they certainly didn't have the boasting/bragging trait that it seems people raised in India have.


----------



## MEM2020

Turnera, 

N2 doesn't love herself. Which is why Nirvana saying her loves her, mid conflict, is likely a counterproductive move. 

This is about emotional stability and Nirvana getting out of his head and into hers. 





turnera said:


> nirvana, what everyone's suggesting today is the same thing I've been telling you - that it's important for you to finally stand up for yourself, but you HAVE to make it clear to her that you are doing so from a position of LOVE. That you WANT her, you LOVE her, you want nothing except to be married to her, just that you want it to be an equal partnership. That's why I keep telling you to bring the love into every conversation. She needs to have hope because in her low self esteem, she's NOT seeing the love, just her unworthiness.


----------



## turnera

Agree to disagree. I think she needs to hear the words.


----------



## jld

Nirvana, you cannot demand respect. You can only earn it. If you are acting immaturely yourself, she is not going to be inspired by you. I think many marital issues come about because the man does not inspire the woman.

How to inspire her? Get hold of your emotions. No more demands or angry outbursts, if you do them. No more whining to your mother or anyone else about her. 

Start seeking to understand her, not complain about her. Learn how to actively listen. It is basically repeating back to her what she tells you, rephrasing it, or asking an open-ended question.

This takes humility, nirvana. You cannot assume this is all her fault. She has undoubtedly been looking to you for leadership. Blaming her is not leadership.

It is good you have limits on the spending. Overspending does no one any favors. But along with sticking to reasonable financial limits, you need to listen and be empathetic to her concerns and desires. No is still No, but you can meet her (temporary) resentment with a gentle, sympathetic gesture and a soft, comforting word. Humor is good, too.

I would like to reiterate the importance of listening, especially actively. You need to invite her vulnerability. That will happen by your willingness to seek to understand her point of view, and by validating her underlying concerns, however silly they seem to you. It will not happen by insisting she admit what a bad girl she has been and how she needs to reform. People are way too prideful for that.

Like MEM said, you need to be the rock. The rock does not leave the sea during a storm. He stays there and weathers it. So must you. 

Listen to what she says, be sympathetic and understanding, smile at her and caress her hair. Give in when you can; stand firm, yet calm, when necessary. And do not stoop to rejecting, punishing, threatening behavior. It is weak and will not win her trust.

We lived in India for 3 years while my husband started a factory there. His director of human resources said you could tell the character of an Indian family by the father. If the father was good, he said, the whole family was good. If the father was bad, the whole family was bad. Strive to use your influence wisely, nirvana.


----------



## ButtPunch

Nirvana

Don't take this as us saying this is your fault either. We are just giving you a 
blueprint to keep your side of the street clean. That's really all you can control
anyways.


----------



## MEM2020

Nirvana,

I was reading this article about a Hollywood family that had a full grown male Lion named Neil - as a guest in their house - for 9 months. 

Neil - all 400 pounds of him - had free run of the house. Ron, who was the lion tamer, was around but he wasn't constantly with Neil. 

Here's the thing. Ron told them up front. It's a bad bad idea to show fear around a Lion. This is pretty deeply hard wired stuff. If you act like prey, he'll treat you like prey. If you act like pride (a member of the pride) he'll treat you like pride. 

I'm being descriptive here, not judgemental. M2 is like a big cat. She can be all cute and cuddly, has the best purr in the world. Or she can be all claws and teeth - at your throat. 

But that is entirely up to me. 

I know it's the last thing you want to do - but when you are volatile or anxious around N2, you are cueing her aggression. This is not a word level thing. It's the whole package of tone and body language and facial expression. 

If you review your 'mental' tape library of conflicts with N2, I can damn near guarantee that you will discover this. Every conflict where you were completely calm, turned out at least ok. 





jld said:


> Nirvana, you cannot demand respect. You can only earn it. If you are acting immaturely yourself, she is not going to be inspired by you. I think many marital issues come about because the man does not inspire the woman.
> 
> How to inspire her? Get hold of your emotions. No more demands or angry outbursts, if you do them. No more whining to your mother or anyone else about her.
> 
> Start seeking to understand her, not complain about her. Learn how to actively listen. It is basically repeating back to her what she tells you, rephrasing it, or asking an open-ended question.
> 
> This takes humility, nirvana. You cannot assume this is all her fault. She has undoubtedly been looking to you for leadership. Blaming her is not leadership.
> 
> It is good you have limits on the spending. Overspending does no one any favors. But along with sticking to reasonable financial limits, you need to listen and be empathetic to her concerns and desires. No is still No, but you can meet her (temporary) resentment with a gentle, sympathetic gesture and a soft, comforting word. Humor is good, too.
> 
> I would like to reiterate the importance of listening, especially actively. You need to invite her vulnerability. That will happen by your willingness to seek to understand her point of view, and by validating her underlying concerns, however silly they seem to you. It will not happen by insisting she admit what a bad girl she has been and how she needs to reform. People are way too prideful for that.
> 
> Like MEM said, you need to be the rock. The rock does not leave the sea during a storm. He stays there and weathers it. So must you.
> 
> Listen to what she says, be sympathetic and understanding, smile at her and caress her hair. Give in when you can; stand firm, yet calm, when necessary. And do not stoop to rejecting, punishing, threatening behavior. It is weak and will not win her trust.
> 
> We lived in India for 3 years while my husband started a factory there. His director of human resources said you could tell the character of an Indian family by the father. If the father was good, he said, the whole family was good. If the father was bad, the whole family was bad. Strive to use your influence wisely, nirvana.


----------



## nirvana

OK, here's the latest.

I got fed up (and I know so is she), so I came back home and acted normal. And she did too... we did not address the underlying issue at least not yet. At night she cuddled up to me and I hugged her in bed. 

I think we still need to talk about what is bothering her and I have to tell her about what I am not happy about. 

Her job setback may be a blessing in disguise as she was getting a bit too high and mighty about her 1 year old career. She's gotten a good amount of praise, but as I have seen in my 17 years, this does not have to mean much in terms of reward as she saw. Your performance review many times just is adjusted based on whether they need you or not. Not necessarily aligning with your performance. She was stung by how she was treated. The top boss said that she got the job and left for vacation and I think the guy below him (my wife's boss) quickly hired someone else most likely because he gets a cut from using an external agency (run by another Indian fellow). It's possible that the top guy does not know and will go wtf when he gets back. My wife has started applying and also got a call closer to home.

When I start to discuss what she is unhappy about, she has only vague stuff like "you don't listen to me" or "it's difficult to make you do anything". When I ask for examples, she does not have them and just says "there are so many". Ok, then tell me 2. No reply. I think I need to ask her to write them down with examples. To me it looks like she gets unhappy about something and begins to throw mud hoping that something will stick. She also claims I "threw her out" of the house when 14 years ago when that never happened. We had a silly argument and the drama queen decided to get drunk (she never drinks) and herself went out of our apartment and into the lobby. She now claims I threw her out. All behavior inherited from daddy.

So I am firm about not responding when she decides to behave like a biatch and talk in a rude manner. I feel that she is somewhat enamored by that and this must be a topic of conversation about how they make their husbands do things by ordering them. One of her close friends, a SAHM who I think is toxic always tells everyone how she like to relax while her husband takes the kids out and does things with them. We have pictures of her from 2002 and now and she has grown to twice her size. She was actually attractive and now she looks like a slob. On the other hand, my wife fits into her wedding-time clothes after 15 years.


----------



## nirvana

ButtPunch said:


> I couldn't say this any better. Be strong during her emotional roller coaster but make her feel safe when the time comes for her to be rewarded. With her low self esteem, you need to help build her up. She can't do it alone.


Yes, when she goes up and down, she tends to say unreasonable things and it's a mistake to pick and analyze each of the things she says. Because when I do, she uses it against me to say that I don't listen to her. Better to wait when she is stable and has thought through an idea before discussing.


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## nirvana

jld said:


> Nirvana, you cannot demand respect. You can only earn it. If you are acting immaturely yourself, she is not going to be inspired by you. I think many marital issues come about because the man does not inspire the woman.
> 
> How to inspire her? Get hold of your emotions. No more demands or angry outbursts, if you do them. No more whining to your mother or anyone else about her.
> 
> Start seeking to understand her, not complain about her. Learn how to actively listen. It is basically repeating back to her what she tells you, rephrasing it, or asking an open-ended question.
> 
> This takes humility, nirvana. You cannot assume this is all her fault. She has undoubtedly been looking to you for leadership. Blaming her is not leadership.
> 
> It is good you have limits on the spending. Overspending does no one any favors. But along with sticking to reasonable financial limits, you need to listen and be empathetic to her concerns and desires. No is still No, but you can meet her (temporary) resentment with a gentle, sympathetic gesture and a soft, comforting word. Humor is good, too.
> 
> I would like to reiterate the importance of listening, especially actively. You need to invite her vulnerability. That will happen by your willingness to seek to understand her point of view, and by validating her underlying concerns, however silly they seem to you. It will not happen by insisting she admit what a bad girl she has been and how she needs to reform. People are way too prideful for that.
> 
> Like MEM said, you need to be the rock. The rock does not leave the sea during a storm. He stays there and weathers it. So must you.
> 
> Listen to what she says, be sympathetic and understanding, smile at her and caress her hair. Give in when you can; stand firm, yet calm, when necessary. And do not stoop to rejecting, punishing, threatening behavior. It is weak and will not win her trust.
> 
> We lived in India for 3 years while my husband started a factory there. His director of human resources said you could tell the character of an Indian family by the father. If the father was good, he said, the whole family was good. If the father was bad, the whole family was bad. Strive to use your influence wisely, nirvana.


I agree in general jld.

I talk to my mother every 2 weeks but not in my wife's presence. I call her from work. Last Sunday I called my mother to ask about how dad was doing since he was unwell. 

But yes, no more angry outbursts. When she is going crazy, I need to let it all bounce off. Completely agree.

I think I''ll give her the phone she's wanted and that I have had for about a week. I can't think of what else she wants that others have and she doesn't after that. And I don't mean absurd things like $10k watches that only this crazy couple will run up debt to buy.

Good post and I read it all and will keep this in mind. Thanks.


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## ButtPunch

nirvana said:


> OK, here's the latest.
> 
> When I start to discuss what she is unhappy about, she has only vague stuff like "you don't listen to me" or "it's difficult to make you do anything". When I ask for examples, she does not have them and just says "there are so many". Ok, then tell me 2. No reply. I think I need to ask her to write them down with examples.


This is the type of situation in which we want you to avoid. This is not you being a rock. This is you being the Type A personality you are and trying to* FIX* the situation. That's why she feels you don't listen. 

Let go of the resentment. You are successful and you don't need your wife telling you that for you to believe it. You've done good pat yourself on the back. Now work on your relationship. It will take a completely different approach than what is normal for you. JLD has given you a blueprint.


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## MEM2020

At a 'summary' level something isn't quite right here. 

You aren't really owning your contribution to this. 

If I had to summarize what I'm hearing it is that: N2 is a spoiled brat with toxic friends who is trying to bully you. 

And based on your very consistent depictions of events - we believe you. 

The thing is, you'd rather spend an hour fixing her, than 10 minutes fixing you. Because at core: You haven't really accepted that you can't change her. You have convinced yourself that SHE is the problem. 

I made more progress with Farside in a month, than I've seen you make in a year. 

And so in the spirit of tough love I will leave you with a completely unfiltered viewpoint. 

There is a strong subtext to much of what you post. The basic flavor is something like this: 
*My beautiful wife, who I don't respect, is constantly doing things I don't respect. And she doesn't respect me. She's often unhappy and wants more social status through money and material possessions. And she wants to be the Big Boss of the house. *

So let's break this vanilla power struggle down:

Physical size/strength: Nirvana hands down, not even close
Financial strength: Nirvana, by a factor of 3
Intelligence: Nirvana 

And yet, so far she's mostly prevailed in this power struggle. Because she has found Nirvanas Achilles heal. And it's a big one. And by exploiting that single, but huge weakness, she has overcome all those competitive disadvantages. 

So that's your challenge Nirvana. To accept and address that giant Achilles heal. Because once you do that, N2 will stop fighting you. 




QUOTE=nirvana;14139706]OK, here's the latest.

I got fed up (and I know so is she), so I came back home and acted normal. And she did too... we did not address the underlying issue at least not yet. At night she cuddled up to me and I hugged her in bed. 

I think we still need to talk about what is bothering her and I have to tell her about what I am not happy about. 

Her job setback may be a blessing in disguise as she was getting a bit too high and mighty about her 1 year old career. She's gotten a good amount of praise, but as I have seen in my 17 years, this does not have to mean much in terms of reward as she saw. Your performance review many times just is adjusted based on whether they need you or not. Not necessarily aligning with your performance. She was stung by how she was treated. The top boss said that she got the job and left for vacation and I think the guy below him (my wife's boss) quickly hired someone else most likely because he gets a cut from using an external agency (run by another Indian fellow). It's possible that the top guy does not know and will go wtf when he gets back. My wife has started applying and also got a call closer to home.

When I start to discuss what she is unhappy about, she has only vague stuff like "you don't listen to me" or "it's difficult to make you do anything". When I ask for examples, she does not have them and just says "there are so many". Ok, then tell me 2. No reply. I think I need to ask her to write them down with examples. To me it looks like she gets unhappy about something and begins to throw mud hoping that something will stick. She also claims I "threw her out" of the house when 14 years ago when that never happened. We had a silly argument and the drama queen decided to get drunk (she never drinks) and herself went out of our apartment and into the lobby. She now claims I threw her out. All behavior inherited from daddy.

So I am firm about not responding when she decides to behave like a biatch and talk in a rude manner. I feel that she is somewhat enamored by that and this must be a topic of conversation about how they make their husbands do things by ordering them. One of her close friends, a SAHM who I think is toxic always tells everyone how she like to relax while her husband takes the kids out and does things with them. We have pictures of her from 2002 and now and she has grown to twice her size. She was actually attractive and now she looks like a slob. On the other hand, my wife fits into her wedding-time clothes after 15 years.[/QUOTE]


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## Tron

MEM11363 said:


> At a 'summary' level something isn't quite right here.
> 
> You aren't really owning your contribution to this.
> 
> If I had to summarize what I'm hearing it is that: N2 is a spoiled brat with toxic friends who is trying to bully you.
> 
> And based on your very consistent depictions of events - we believe you.
> 
> The thing is, you'd rather spend an hour fixing her, than 10 minutes fixing you. Because at core: You haven't really accepted that you can't change her. You have convinced yourself that SHE is the problem.
> 
> I made more progress with Farside in a month, than I've seen you make in a year.
> 
> And so in the spirit of tough love I will leave you with a completely unfiltered viewpoint.
> 
> There is a strong subtext to much of what you post. The basic flavor is something like this:
> *My beautiful wife, who I don't respect, is constantly doing things I don't respect. And she doesn't respect me. She's often unhappy and wants more social status through money and material possessions. And she wants to be the Big Boss of the house. *
> 
> So let's break this vanilla power struggle down:
> 
> Physical size/strength: Nirvana hands down, not even close
> Financial strength: Nirvana, by a factor of 3
> Intelligence: Nirvana
> 
> And yet, so far she's mostly prevailed in this power struggle. Because she has found Nirvanas Achilles heal. And it's a big one. And by exploiting that single, but huge weakness, she has overcome all those competitive disadvantages.
> 
> So that's your challenge Nirvana. To accept and address that giant Achilles heal. Because once you do that, N2 will stop fighting you.


Take the next step Nirvana.

.


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## Anon Pink

nirvana said:


> MEM, maybe that is the case. Quite possible. I am just tired of the emotional roller coaster that my wife puts me through. If something goes wrong for her, it is because of me, and she assumes that I must be happy. If something goes wrong for me, then it is again my fault as she says I did not do something. It's actually I who cannot win with her, even though she has been given the best life among all her friends. She was about to be a SAHM when she wanted, and then take up a job when she wanted. She seems to think that others have this great life, from their pictures on Facebook and their boasting. Indians are notorious for that.
> 
> Anyway, I'll see where she wants to take things from here. Trust me, I am not enjoying this myself either. But there comes a time when I have to put my foot down otherwise I'll just get washed away.



There are some things men are instinctively good at, and some things they must endeavor to learn because it does not come naturally. During intimate discussions, men hear the words and then they hear blame. Maybe they hear blame because they are instinctive protectors and if something isn't working right, they feel responsible.

So I'm going to take your passage above and break it down into parts and point out the emotion behind the words and then how to respond to the emotion and not the words.

" I am just tired of the emotional roller coaster that my wife puts me through."
I feel dejected and rejected. I feel like a failure when I am unable to make her happy.
Recognize and restate the feelings: "I'm sure her emotional outbursts make you feel like it's your fault she isn't happy."


" If something goes wrong for her, it is because of me, and she assumes that I must be happy. If something goes wrong for me, then it is again my fault as she says I did not do something."
I feel attacked and misunderstood. I feel unappreciated and unfairly blamed.
Recognize and restate the feelings: "you feel you're being treated unfairly because you feel blamed for her misfortunes as well as your own. You feel misunderstood because she thinks you're selfish and always have to have your way."


" It's actually I who cannot win with her, even though she has been given the best life among all her friends."
I feel unappreciated. I feel unfairly judged. I feel rejected.
Recognize and restate the feelings: "You feel like she doesn't recognize all the things you have done for her and provided for her and that makes you feel totally unappreciated."


" She was about to be a SAHM when she wanted, and then take up a job when she wanted. She seems to think that others have this great life, from their pictures on Facebook and their boasting. Indians are notorious for that."
I judge that she doesn't recognize the flexibility I've made possible for her. I judge that she isn't being realistic in her assessment of the live we have built together and the lifestyle I've provided. I feel unappreciated. I feel overwhelmed by her expectations of me as a provider.
Recognize and restate the feelings: "You feel that she consistently neglects to appreciate all the things you've provided and the flexibility she has enjoyed with regard to staying at home or working. You feel like she expects too much because she's judging you against what other people brag about on Facebook."

That, Nirvana, is how you hear the emotions behind the words, demonstrate that you understand the emotions by restating them, and validate her feelings by not defending yourself or judging. (Except the last passage where I used the term "I judge...")

As everyone has been telling you, you react emotionally to your wife's emotional outbursts. You are quick to defend yourself when you feel blamed or unappreciated. When you defend yourself you are invalidating her emotions, when you invalidate her emotions you are creating a deeper conflict. 

If you could learn to hear her emotions, recognize and restate them and refrain from defending yourself, her emotional outbursts would become opportunities for deepening intimacy.

She looks at Facebook and then becomes silly because she wants what everyone else has. Now you now what she is seeing isn't really real. You know what she says she wants is pretty close to what you provide. You know you have provided well for your family. You KNOW this! You know this deep in your bones. It is fact. So why do you forget these facts when she says silly things about what other people brag about having?

This is called confidence. You can build it. You can learn it. You can even fake it. But you can't get it from anyone else but yourself. You can't expect your wife to give it to you.

Because your wife is silly and your confidence is easily shaken, your marriage has devolved into accusations, blames, and stupid arguments about stupid things.

So back up, put you confident on and hear her emotions. Once she begins to feel heard and understood, she will be much more amenable to being talked down from that silly expectation of having what her friends have on Facebook. Once she consistently feels heard, understood, respected, validated and loved, she will be more amenable to showing you admiration, appreciation and validation.

But it has to start with YOU!


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## nirvana

MEM11363 said:


> At a 'summary' level something isn't quite right here.
> 
> You aren't really owning your contribution to this.
> 
> If I had to summarize what I'm hearing it is that: N2 is a spoiled brat with toxic friends who is trying to bully you.
> 
> And based on your very consistent depictions of events - we believe you.
> 
> The thing is, you'd rather spend an hour fixing her, than 10 minutes fixing you. Because at core: You haven't really accepted that you can't change her. You have convinced yourself that SHE is the problem.
> 
> I made more progress with Farside in a month, than I've seen you make in a year.
> 
> And so in the spirit of tough love I will leave you with a completely unfiltered viewpoint.
> 
> There is a strong subtext to much of what you post. The basic flavor is something like this:
> *My beautiful wife, who I don't respect, is constantly doing things I don't respect. And she doesn't respect me. She's often unhappy and wants more social status through money and material possessions. And she wants to be the Big Boss of the house. *
> 
> So let's break this vanilla power struggle down:
> 
> Physical size/strength: Nirvana hands down, not even close
> Financial strength: Nirvana, by a factor of 3
> Intelligence: Nirvana
> 
> And yet, so far she's mostly prevailed in this power struggle. Because she has found Nirvanas Achilles heal. And it's a big one. And by exploiting that single, but huge weakness, she has overcome all those competitive disadvantages.
> 
> So that's your challenge Nirvana. To accept and address that giant Achilles heal. Because once you do that, N2 will stop fighting you.


Calling her a spoiled brat would be too extreme I think, but her dad did spoil her when she was living with him a long time ago. A daddy's girl. And I suspect she wants me to daddy her while I want a wife, not a daughter. That role is already taken by my sweetest little 7 year old. 

The other thing is my wife's methods. She has a tendency to put people on a pedestal when she first meets them and hears about their great deeds (real or fake). Just this weekend, we got called to a Diwali party and the lady provided an elaborate dinner without asking people to contribute dishes which is the norm these days. So my wife calls her a "divine person". I had to tell her to stop right there and not go that far. Yes, a nice generous person, but not divine. I know it's a matter of time and the divine status comes crashing down. She's gone through this over and over again. Anyway, so my wife is glamorized by women who boss over or "rule" their husbands. I don't see understand this. Some men love to be dominated by their wives and treated badly and insulted. I have seen such men grin and do as they are ordered like pet dogs. Okay... works for them but not for me. If my wife wants me to do something for her, I expected to be asked respectfully, and even hugged or kissed once in a while. Of course as long as the ask is not unreasonable like buy me a $20,000 watch or something. Bullying and ordering around does NOT work with me, I get into a combat position and it is downhill from there.

Just yesterday, I noticed that her car was on gas reserve and she had driven 30 miles already. I told her about it and offered that she fill it up before Monday. I usually do the fueling for her, but I see that she does not appreciate it at all. So I did not do it this time but I did not want her to be stuck either. She said okay, she will do it. I know her, she was waiting for me to jump in and offer and I did not. I filled up my car and did other things. Then she comes in and asks me if I could do it for her. Hmm I said... I was really working on this other thing.... then she leaves the room. I did not call her or offer. She comes in again after 10 minutes with a real request... could you please fill up my car? Sure honey I say and go fill it up for her. Women have great power over men. They don't realize it and try to behave like men and are astounded when they get the responses that men reserve for other men.

You are probably right in many areas in your post. This constant walking over eggshells that I have to do is tiresome. And there is a strong correlation between her bad behavior and her periods. The Oct 31 blowup was for the same reason and unfortunately my app did not notify me in time.


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## nirvana

Anon Pink said:


> There are some things men are instinctively good at, and some things they must endeavor to learn because it does not come naturally. During intimate discussions, men hear the words and then they hear blame. Maybe they hear blame because they are instinctive protectors and if something isn't working right, they feel responsible.
> 
> So I'm going to take your passage above and break it down into parts and point out the emotion behind the words and then how to respond to the emotion and not the words.
> 
> " I am just tired of the emotional roller coaster that my wife puts me through."
> I feel dejected and rejected. I feel like a failure when I am unable to make her happy.
> Recognize and restate the feelings: "I'm sure her emotional outbursts make you feel like it's your fault she isn't happy."
> 
> 
> " If something goes wrong for her, it is because of me, and she assumes that I must be happy. If something goes wrong for me, then it is again my fault as she says I did not do something."
> I feel attacked and misunderstood. I feel unappreciated and unfairly blamed.
> Recognize and restate the feelings: "you feel you're being treated unfairly because you feel blamed for her misfortunes as well as your own. You feel misunderstood because she thinks you're selfish and always have to have your way."
> 
> 
> " It's actually I who cannot win with her, even though she has been given the best life among all her friends."
> I feel unappreciated. I feel unfairly judged. I feel rejected.
> Recognize and restate the feelings: "You feel like she doesn't recognize all the things you have done for her and provided for her and that makes you feel totally unappreciated."
> 
> 
> " She was about to be a SAHM when she wanted, and then take up a job when she wanted. She seems to think that others have this great life, from their pictures on Facebook and their boasting. Indians are notorious for that."
> I judge that she doesn't recognize the flexibility I've made possible for her. I judge that she isn't being realistic in her assessment of the live we have built together and the lifestyle I've provided. I feel unappreciated. I feel overwhelmed by her expectations of me as a provider.
> Recognize and restate the feelings: "You feel that she consistently neglects to appreciate all the things you've provided and the flexibility she has enjoyed with regard to staying at home or working. You feel like she expects too much because she's judging you against what other people brag about on Facebook."
> 
> That, Nirvana, is how you hear the emotions behind the words, demonstrate that you understand the emotions by restating them, and validate her feelings by not defending yourself or judging. (Except the last passage where I used the term "I judge...")
> 
> As everyone has been telling you, you react emotionally to your wife's emotional outbursts. You are quick to defend yourself when you feel blamed or unappreciated. When you defend yourself you are invalidating her emotions, when you invalidate her emotions you are creating a deeper conflict.
> 
> If you could learn to hear her emotions, recognize and restate them and refrain from defending yourself, her emotional outbursts would become opportunities for deepening intimacy.
> 
> She looks at Facebook and then becomes silly because she wants what everyone else has. Now you now what she is seeing isn't really real. You know what she says she wants is pretty close to what you provide. You know you have provided well for your family. You KNOW this! You know this deep in your bones. It is fact. So why do you forget these facts when she says silly things about what other people brag about having?
> 
> This is called confidence. You can build it. You can learn it. You can even fake it. But you can't get it from anyone else but yourself. You can't expect your wife to give it to you.
> 
> Because your wife is silly and your confidence is easily shaken, your marriage has devolved into accusations, blames, and stupid arguments about stupid things.
> 
> So back up, put you confident on and hear her emotions. Once she begins to feel heard and understood, she will be much more amenable to being talked down from that silly expectation of having what her friends have on Facebook. Once she consistently feels heard, understood, respected, validated and loved, she will be more amenable to showing you admiration, appreciation and validation.
> 
> But it has to start with YOU!


Good post AP, and thanks. Makes sense. There is not much I can "defend" here because you have it spot on.

I talked about the Halloween party incident where I was discussing something with another lady and her husband and my wife standing away seems to think that I was fighting with her (the party was loud and noisy). Then the woman comes to my wife after that with an angry grumpy face and my wife immediately assumes that I was the cause. Now my wife herself knows that this woman is ALWAYS like this. Stress and worry is her natural look. So now there is another holiday party planned and my wife is training some little girls to do a dance performance. This woman from the Halloween party has been causing some trouble so my wife is not happy with her. I just commented that this is what people do and one has to be careful before just blindly believing what someone says. My wife said yes, I am learning and my eyes are opening. But I know that in the future, she will do the same because her other manipulative personality will kick in.

Maybe the problem is with my expectation that I want a mature adult to talk to and discuss life issues with. Instead this does not seem to be possible.


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## Lilac23

nirvana said:


> Women have great power over men. They don't realize it and try to behave like men and are astounded when they get the responses that men reserve for other men.


This is completely true, in my opinion, it's amazing what even tone of voice can accomplish. Even talking on the phone with a 'please help me' sort of quality can get men to go out of their way to fix whatever ails you. There are some men, though, who seem extra wary of being mistaken for a softie and will be extra rough if you try to sweet talk them into something. Most men seem to like to being 'men' though and taking charge, or carrying something heavy for you. :grin2: A little thanks and appreciation goes a long way.



nirvana said:


> You are probably right in many areas in your post. This constant walking over eggshells that I have to do is tiresome. And there is a strong correlation between her bad behavior and her periods. The Oct 31 blowup was for the same reason and unfortunately my app did not notify me in time.


I don't really much to add but I greatly enjoy Nirvana's style of writing! Is the issue of lack of appreciation more apparent since she began working or has it always been like this? After being home for so many years and ruling the roost, she could be somewhat out of her depth by working again and feeling inferior. Perhaps she is being more critical of you because she feels crappier about herself as an employee. She was totally in charge of the home and now, instead of excelling at being a SAHM or being a great employee, she is only mediocre in both areas. Nirvana is picking up more of the slack at home and she is noticing that he is handling it fine, in addition to keeping up his professional workload. Jealousy?


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