# He takes advantage of my "no scorecard policy"



## AngelaBecca (Sep 22, 2017)

I can appreciate that many people request advice on this topic but I am desperate at this point! 

I am a firm believer in not being a "score keeper" when it comes to marriage. However, where do we draw the line when it comes to our spouses taking advantage of that fact? My husband knows that I will never say or think that I am better than him or that I do more than he does and I try my hardest not to nag him or ask him to do much. BUT he takes complete advantage of that and he has for years! We have been married for 6 years and have a 4 year old and a 1 year old. My husband works 40 hours a week, as do I and I am also in school getting my Masters Degree in Accounting which is also a full time job. Let me be clear, I am not keeping score by telling you this....simply giving you a general idea of our lives. Having said that, I have ZERO free time between work, school and the kids. Without getting into details, because that could go on forever, my husband doesn't help me. AT ALL. Now I know that wives/mothers complain about this exact thing all the time and that's what makes me bury this issue constantly. But I beg him for help sometimes and I get nothing! When I tell you that he does absolutely nothing when it comes to house and family, I am not exaggerating. We have gone to counseling about this and he always leaves with the promise to do better but he never does. He takes advantage of the fact that he can get away with not doing anything because he knows I'm not going anywhere. I don't believe in divorce and I am trying everything to avoid that option. But where do I draw the line? When is it acceptable for me to finally give up on him and realize that he is never going to change? Do I stay in this unappreciative, one-sided, loveless (also VERY sexless), thing that we are calling a marriage even though it's basically me taking care of 3 kids instead of 2? We are going on 6 years of this and there is no end in sight. It actually gets worse as time goes on and I ask for more help. It's like he's proving to me that he will do as little as possible just to see if he can. If I ever ask him to help me or to do something he genuinely gets annoyed and starts on the track of "you're so helpless and all you want is appreciation and attention". He emotionally abuses me every single day and I feel like nothing I do is ever good enough because I have no one in my corner telling me that it is. So when is enough, enough? He takes advantage of my "no scorecard policy", but is that fair? I continually give him the benefit of the doubt and all he ever does is take it for granted. 

In case you're wondering about what I ask of him and what he does instead, read the following. I debated on weather or not to include this as I don't want to come across as a "scorekeeper" but when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....

My daily schedule consists of waking up at 6 AM, getting me and the boys ready and dropping them off at school and daycare. I go to work from 8-5 then i pick up the boys and head home. Make dinner, clean house, give baths and get them in bed by 8. I study from about 8-12 or 1 am. Go to bed and do it all over again the next day. My weekends consist of cleaning the house and studying all while taking care of the kids. 

His daily schedule. He works from 3pm-11pm 5 days a week. That's it. The rest of his time is spent sleeping and playing video games. He wakes up about 2 pm, goes to work, comes home about 11:30pm and gets on his computer from about the time he gets home until 5-6 am and then sleeps until he has to go to work. On his off days, which is usually wednesday and friday, he sleeps until about 2 pm and plays video games until about 5-6 am. He is 33 years old in case you were wondering. He does not see anything wrong with his actions. 

Now, if video games make him happy then by all means...play your heart out. BUT he has other responsibilities that I feel like he should be taking care of first. He has AT LEAST 40 hours a week alone in our house that he could use helping around the house. He says that if I want something done then I should be able to do it myself. He doesn't care if things are done so why should he have to do it. These exact words came straight out of his mouth. One of the low points was when I had to mow the lawn at 7 months pregnant while he sat inside playing video games. He honestly did not see an issue with that. I just don't understand how someone could be so unbelievably disconnected from reality. I feel like if you truly love someone then you try every single day to make them happy. Even if its something you don't want to do. And mowing the lawn so your 7 month pregnant wife doesn't have to is something that would have made me happy. This is just one of thousands of examples that I have had to deal with over the years. He thinks that I work, go to school and want nice things and a clean house just to show off and brag to people. I do and want all of these things so my kids will have a better life than i did. He cannot for the life of him grasp that concept. 

I need a partner but all I have right now is this man that does not care or appreciate what i do for him and his family, insults me on top of that and makes my job even harder on purpose. But he loves me??? So again I ask, where do I draw the line? When can I use the "scorecard" to show him that I am sick of basically being a single parent in this prison?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I see being a "scorekeeper" as having a specific list: "I spend 23 minutes making dinner, you spend 11 cleaning it up, 4 watering the plants and 5 walking the dog, do you owe 3 minutes more in chore". 

I think it completely reasonable to expect your partner to spend a similar amount of time on work and chores. That isn't keeping score, its just being fair.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

What percentage of your joint income do you earn?


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

What he said about you wanting something done then you should be doing it yourself and then saying he doesn't care if that stuff gets done is where the line is. You two see this issue from polar opposite positions. You've been to counseling over this and it did no good so I don't see how a resolution is possible.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

AngelaBecca said:


> He takes advantage of the fact that he can get away with not doing anything because he knows I'm not going anywhere. I don't believe in divorce and I am trying everything to avoid that option. But where do I draw the line? When is it acceptable for me to finally give up on him and realize that he is never going to change? Do I stay in this unappreciative, one-sided, loveless (also VERY sexless), thing that we are calling a marriage even though it's basically me taking care of 3 kids instead of 2? We are going on 6 years of this and there is no end in sight. It actually gets worse as time goes on and I ask for more help. It's like he's proving to me that he will do as little as possible just to see if he can. If I ever ask him to help me or to do something he genuinely gets annoyed and starts on the track of "you're so helpless and all you want is appreciation and attention". He emotionally abuses me every single day and I feel like nothing I do is ever good enough because I have no one in my corner telling me that it is. So when is enough, enough? He takes advantage of my "no scorecard policy", but is that fair? I continually give him the benefit of the doubt and all he ever does is take it for granted.


Where do you draw the line? I think that question might be how do you draw the line. 
He does not see this as a relationship of equal partners. At home he sees you as the mother who does what his mother did.. everything… housework, takes care of the kids. And he sees himself as one of the kids. Of course, your marriage is “VERY sexless”. Boy’s don’t have sex with their mother.
You keep ask him for “help”. That word is loaded. It means that like his mom, you see housework and child care as your responsibility and you want him to “help” you. How was he at doing chores when his mother asked him to do them, to “help her”. I’ll bet that he was about as good as he is in your home with you as his “mommy”.

A marriage is a relationship of equal PARTNERS. Both partners have equal responsibility for everything, unless you specifically negotiate otherwise. For example, if one of you is better at doing something, you both might agree that they take over that task. And the other takes over something that they are good at. But that’s not what’s going on in your marriage.

If you want to try to fix this situation, then you need to stop being his mommy and taking responsiblty for everything.
What things are you doing that he could do for himself? Make a list. Stop doing them. If he complains just tell him with a few words as possible “You can do that.”.

For example, do you do his laundry? Get a separate basket/hamper and put his cloths in it. When he has no clean clothing, he will learn to use the washer/dryer.

If you want we can work through this can come up with a list of things you and do and stop doing so that you stop taking responsibility for everything and let him start taking up respopnslibty. If you want to do this, then please list the things you do for him and we can start with that.

On the other hand, if you feel that you have had enough of a grown man acting like a child and treating you like his mother (to include a sexless marriage) I think you have enough now to justify divorcing him. When a marriage becomes sexless and the guy is treating his wife like his mommy, I'm not sure that the all the tactics that are used to rescue a marriage before the "Walk Away Wife" walks will work here.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Not said:


> What he said about you wanting something done then you should be doing it yourself and then saying he doesn't care if that stuff gets done is where the line is. You two see this issue from polar opposite positions. You've been to counseling over this and it did no good so I don't see how a resolution is possible.


This is an interesting point of view. 

I agree that they see things from different points of view. But there are things that do not fall into the category of different points of view.

For example there are things that have to be done.. thinks like feeding the children and lots of other things related to the children. It's not just her point of view that as parents they need to take care of their children. And it's not her job to do 100% of the care of their children.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Well since you don't believe in divorce you don't have much leverage, do you?

The only thing I can suggest is to stop asking for help like his mommy and stop doing anything for him. 

Don't do his laundry, don't make him dinner, don't do anything.

When he says something tell him you don't think it's important so he can do it himself.

Don't have anymore kids with this guy.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

I have to agree with what Elegirl said. He sees you as the grown up in the marriage (mom) and since you have been doing everything, why should he? If it does not get done, eventually you will do it. That's what my kids do to me when i ask them to do something they don't want to do. 

Stop doing things for him. Don't be considerate of his comfort and happiness. Do only for yourself and the kids.

Are you in a better paying job than he is? I think that they is a bit of resentment on his part. He may see you doing all of these things to better yourself and resent it because he is not doing anything himself. That is why he keeps putting you down.

You have to decide soon, how much more of his behavior you can take. Don't wait too long because your boys are learning his bad ways.

Take care of yourself. Take the kids out for a pizza dinner and dont cook anything for that fool.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> This is an interesting point of view.
> 
> I agree that they see things from different points of view. But there are things that do not fall into the category of different points of view.
> 
> For example there are things that have to be done.. thinks like feeding the children and lots of other things related to the children. It's not just her point of view that as parents they need to take care of their children. And it's not her job to do 100% of the care of their children.


Oh I agree 100% but try explaining that to OP's H. He knows and still does absolutely nothing. The stance he's chosen to take is where he's drawn the line for OP.


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## AngelaBecca (Sep 22, 2017)

We bring home almost the exact same amount. Difference is $5-$10 per paycheck. But insurance and 401K come out of his check. Honestly, even if he were to bring home substantially more than I do it still does not excuse this behavior. After I finish school I will be in a position to earn 4-5 times more than he does currently. Would that make this situation even worse?


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## AngelaBecca (Sep 22, 2017)

Wow! This is an amazing perspective! Thank you for your insight! 
Things I do for him:
His laundry
His dishes
clean his office
wash his dog
buy groceries that he eats
pay HIS bills
make all of his appointments

Now let me say that I have tried your "don't do his things for him" tactic. It didn't go well. All of his laundry piled up. He would literally wash one outfit at a time right before work. His office became a pigsty that stank to high heaven because that's where the dog stays when he is inside. Trash, dishes, clothes would piles up and I didn't want my boys around that so honestly I just couldn't take it. I can't live like that haha. It was basically like having a roommate from hell. If I don't buy the groceries that he likes then he ends up eating mine and the boys food, so what good does that do? It only pisses me off even more. If I don't get his bills paid, the ones that are in his name such as student loans, car payment, etc. then that could effect me negatively (if i choose to stay with him). I could stop making his appointments such as doctor, dentist etc. But that's about it. Honestly, going that direction feels like a game to me. I don't want to play games. I'm a grown woman and I need him to be a grown man and respect and care about his home and family.


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## AngelaBecca (Sep 22, 2017)

I guess I should have said I don't WANT to get divorced. Not that I don't believe in it. I didn't go into this marriage thinking that divorce was an option and I have a hard time coming to terms with giving up on something or quitting. That's why I came here for advice. Divorce is my last option and I am going to try everything I can before it gets to that point. Like I mentioned in my original post, we went to counseling but to no avail so my options are dwindling.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

AngelaBecca said:


> Divorce is my last option and I am going to try everything I can before it gets to that point. Like I mentioned in my original post, we went to counseling but to no avail so my options are dwindling.


No matter what you try to do to save the marriage, if he isn't on board with it, there's no point. He doesn't want counseling. He doesn't care if you quit cooking and cleaning up after him. It doesn't sound like he is engaged in the marriage, but pretty much checked out into his own world.

It takes two to save a marriage.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Sure he's not having an EA? So many people come here finding their partner is having a relationship with another person via an online game. 

Ask yourself.. "Is the ****ing I'm getting worth the ****ing I'm taking?" 

Since you aren't having sex, I'd say no. Stop being his mom and make him live the single life. Don't do anything for him. And definitely get an IUD, no more kids!

You two need to get into marriage counseling or you'll resent him and there's no coming back. Hell, it might even be too late for that. You need to have a come to Jesus talk with him and get it all out on the table.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

AngelaBecca said:


> I guess I should have said I don't WANT to get divorced. Not that I don't believe in it. I didn't go into this marriage thinking that divorce was an option and I have a hard time coming to terms with giving up on something or quitting. That's why I came here for advice. Divorce is my last option and I am going to try everything I can before it gets to that point. Like I mentioned in my original post, we went to counseling but to no avail so my options are dwindling.


You can give it your all, all you want but it's not going to do anything for him. He has been trained by you to be like this because you will eventually do it when it bothers you. I don't see him changing. Expect more resentment when you start earning more. You might want to consider hiring someone to do the things he does not want to do, like get someone to cut the grass. Have someone come in once a week to clean and do laundry which should free up some time for you to spend with the kids and relax abit. 

The man is set in his ways and is not going to change. I know people like this, I have them as family members.


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## AngelaBecca (Sep 22, 2017)

I completely agree with you. I could hire someone to do every single chore around the house and I wouldn't have to do anything. The thing is, I don't mind doing all of those things. I have done them for years and I enjoy taking care of and providing for my sons and showing them an example of a good mother/wife. My issue is that he REFUSES to pitch in and then turns around and criticizes me for the things I do, let alone appreciate any of it. On top of that, I get nothing in return. If the sex was good I could probably deal with everything else BUT to have good sex there has to be sex to begin with so.....there's that. I guess this is the curse of having a type A personality.....I can't leave things undone, even to prove a point.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

AngelaBecca said:


> I completely agree with you. I could hire someone to do every single chore around the house and I wouldn't have to do anything. The thing is, I don't mind doing all of those things. I have done them for years and I enjoy taking care of and providing for my sons and showing them an example of a good mother/wife. My issue is that he REFUSES to pitch in and then turns around and criticizes me for the things I do, let alone appreciate any of it. On top of that, I get nothing in return. If the sex was good I could probably deal with everything else BUT to have good sex there has to be sex to begin with so.....there's that. I guess this is the curse of having a type A personality.....I can't leave things undone, even to prove a point.


Then, from your H's POV you have problems not him. He is good. You created this problem by needing to have things clean and tidy, why should he help you? He is happy living in a pig sty, if you want a clean house don't expect him to help. After all, this is a "your problem" not a " his problem". ..

The man likes his life of no responsibilities in the house, who wouldn't love this set up.


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## AngelaBecca (Sep 22, 2017)

brooklynAnn said:


> Then, from your H's POV you have problems not him. He is good. You created this problem by needing to have things clean and tidy, why should he help you? He is happy living in a pig sty, if you want a clean house don't expect him to help. After all, this is a "your problem" not a " his problem". ..
> 
> The man likes his life of no responsibilities in the house, who wouldn't love this set up.


Ok, so should I be the one to change? Should I just come to terms with the fact that I will always have an extra child to take care of and also the fact that I basically have no husband/partner. I will continue through life probably feeling more lonely than what I would feel like if I were single. What about the sex? Am I suppose to go my whole life without ever having sex again? I'm 27. I don't think that would be possible. It may be my fault that he is the way he is and that I spoiled him and trained him to expect nothing less but please keep in mind that I started our marriage out doing all of these things because I thought I should. I thought I was making him happy and just contributing to our marriage. But at the time we had no kids and I didn't have a job. Over the years our situation has changed; adding two kids, me getting and full time job, and me being in grad school. Our situation has changed and I have conformed to that but he hasn't. It took a long time for me to put the pieces together about what he was turning into. It didn't happen over night. It took many many little things for this to build up into what it is now. Please don't take this as condescending or that I have an attitude. I just didn't know how to word that in a nice way. I appreciate your input!


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

AngelaBecca said:


> Ok, so should I be the one to change? Should I just come to terms with the fact that I will always have an extra child to take care of and also the fact that I basically have no husband/partner. I will continue through life probably feeling more lonely than what I would feel like if I were single. What about the sex? Am I suppose to go my whole life without ever having sex again? I'm 27. I don't think that would be possible. It may be my fault that he is the way he is and that I spoiled him and trained him to expect nothing less but please keep in mind that I started our marriage out doing all of these things because I thought I should. I thought I was making him happy and just contributing to our marriage. But at the time we had no kids and I didn't have a job. Over the years our situation has changed; adding two kids, me getting and full time job, and me being in grad school. Our situation has changed and I have conformed to that but he hasn't. It took a long time for me to put the pieces together about what he was turning into. It didn't happen over night. It took many many little things for this to build up into what it is now. Please don't take this as condescending or that I have an attitude. I just didn't know how to word that in a nice way. I appreciate your input!


Oh dear, I am not putting you down or trying to belittle you. I am just saying this is how he sees things. I totally agree with you that you should not have to do it all. YOu have been very patience and are trying your best to get him to fall in line and help out. But sadly, it will take a blow to the head for him to become aware.

You have tried your best. Now maybe it's time to stop trying. Leave things as they are for him, let the house stink. You have to stop caring so much....I have aunts with Hs like yours. Nothing has ever changed for them because they would never give him a dose of his medicine or leave the marriage. Then, guess what, I now have cousins just like their daddies. God have mercy on those poor girls they marry.

You need to rethink this and reevaluate how you want to carry on.


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## AngelaBecca (Sep 22, 2017)

brooklynAnn said:


> Oh dear, I am not putting you down or trying to belittle you. I am just saying this is how he sees things. I totally agree with you that you should not have to do it all. YOu have been very patience and are trying your best to get him to fall in line and help out. But sadly, it will take a blow to the head for him to become aware.
> 
> You have tried your best. Now maybe it's time to stop trying. Leave things as they are for him, let the house stink. You have to stop caring so much....I have aunts with Hs like yours. Nothing has ever changed for them because they would never give him a dose of his medicine or leave the marriage. Then, guess what, I now have cousins just like their daddies. God have mercy on those poor girls they marry.
> 
> You need to rethink this and reevaluate how you want to carry on.


Thank you! I also haven't considered the thought of my boys turning into that and what exactly the rest of my life will be like if i do stay with him. Those are both really scary thoughts but I appreciate you bringing it to my attention.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

AngelaBecca said:


> I guess I should have said I don't WANT to get divorced. Not that I don't believe in it. I didn't go into this marriage thinking that divorce was an option and I have a hard time coming to terms with giving up on something or quitting. That's why I came here for advice. Divorce is my last option and I am going to try everything I can before it gets to that point. Like I mentioned in my original post, we went to counseling but to no avail so my options are dwindling.


I was thinking...not to hard. Hardly.

Instead of Accounting with your Green Visored balance sheet.
Putting all his current debits in the deferred contributions offset column.
Turning his portfolio body around and carefully measuring his waist-level debt-to-asset ratio.

Be more objective. Revise your markdown criteria.
Do a multiple regression analysis.

You will find that you have a volume variance.
It is called love and devotion. Work his numbers again.

Massage his assets.
Factor in paid-in-value-in-excess-of-par-value.

Use the Lexington Kentucky Windage calculator.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

AngelaBecca said:


> I can appreciate that many people request advice on this topic but I am desperate at this point!
> 
> I am a firm believer in not being a "score keeper" when it comes to marriage. However, where do we draw the line when it comes to our spouses taking advantage of that fact? My husband knows that I will never say or think that I am better than him or that I do more than he does and I try my hardest not to nag him or ask him to do much. BUT he takes complete advantage of that and he has for years! We have been married for 6 years and have a 4 year old and a 1 year old. My husband works 40 hours a week, as do I and I am also in school getting my Masters Degree in Accounting which is also a full time job. Let me be clear, I am not keeping score by telling you this....simply giving you a general idea of our lives. Having said that, I have ZERO free time between work, school and the kids. Without getting into details, because that could go on forever, my husband doesn't help me. AT ALL. Now I know that wives/mothers complain about this exact thing all the time and that's what makes me bury this issue constantly. But I beg him for help sometimes and I get nothing! When I tell you that he does absolutely nothing when it comes to house and family, I am not exaggerating. We have gone to counseling about this and he always leaves with the promise to do better but he never does. He takes advantage of the fact that he can get away with not doing anything because he knows I'm not going anywhere. I don't believe in divorce and I am trying everything to avoid that option. But where do I draw the line? When is it acceptable for me to finally give up on him and realize that he is never going to change? Do I stay in this unappreciative, one-sided, loveless (also VERY sexless), thing that we are calling a marriage even though it's basically me taking care of 3 kids instead of 2? We are going on 6 years of this and there is no end in sight. It actually gets worse as time goes on and I ask for more help. It's like he's proving to me that he will do as little as possible just to see if he can. If I ever ask him to help me or to do something he genuinely gets annoyed and starts on the track of "you're so helpless and all you want is appreciation and attention". He emotionally abuses me every single day and I feel like nothing I do is ever good enough because I have no one in my corner telling me that it is. So when is enough, enough? He takes advantage of my "no scorecard policy", but is that fair? I continually give him the benefit of the doubt and all he ever does is take it for granted.
> 
> ...


*Let's just say that if anyone has the inherent right to use a "scorecard" on their husband, then you certainly do!*


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

If you're going to leave, do it before you graduate. Less possibility of having to pay him alimony.

I can't figure out why you had a second child with this guy. Surely, you didn't expect him to grow up.

You can try moving out with the kids for 6 months and see if he pulls his head out of his ass. Otherwise, file for divorce and look forward to a happier future.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

What do you mean he "gets away" with this?

Here's what I see:

You have listed your obligations. 
You did not indicate whether he was a willing participant in those obligations. Was he on board when you had two children? When you had that long chat about whether one, the other, or both of you would have full-time jobs, was he in agreement? If those big things were done without an in-advance discussion, agreement and consent, then they are YOUR PERSONAL choices, and not the marriage's choices...and if that's how they happened, then the point-scoring has already begun...he sees that you got what you want without asking him, so he's doing the same.

On the other hand, assuming these were, in fact, couples decisions, then your path is really easy.

You tell him that you can't do all three of those things and cook and clean, etc and you'd like his help in maknig a decision.

Of the things you're doing that cause this overload, which ones is he OK with you no longer doing? Is it OK to cease the degree program (which will lead to lack of future income)? Is it OK for you to stop preparing meals for him? You do things he would miss - and they take your time. List them.

It's always about his needs and your needs. His needs are apparently taken care of. Satisfying those needs takes your time. Propose to stop taking care of him.

Hope that's useful.


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## sdrawkcab (Jun 16, 2016)

OP-

I think is is useful to see this through the eyes of your boys. AS a parent, it is our job to model how we treat others. Our kids first model of a relationship is through their parents. Would you want you boys to treat their wives the same way your husband treats you?


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## AngelaBecca (Sep 22, 2017)

DustyDog said:


> What do you mean he "gets away" with this?
> 
> Here's what I see:
> 
> ...


I do understand your point and they are both valid given that you didn't have the information you needed. We both decided to get married, buy a house, and have both of our children. None of those were by accident and they all were choices we made together. I was my choice to go to work but he fully supported it given that we needed the extra income. The kids were taken care of and his life wouldn't change so why not? More stress off of him. Now in my career field I cannot advance without a certain certificate (CPA) hence why I'm in the MBA program getting my masters so i can sit for my CPA test. This was a conversation we had together and he agreed that this is what I should do. There was absolutely no negativity in any of these conversations. Quite the opposite. We were both excited about a brighter future. The conversations were filled with promises about how he would help out more and step up. Just like our counseling sessions where he would leave with promises of doing better but never did. Now, I realize that it's my own fault for believing him time after time. But that doesn't help my current situation. If I go to him and tell him that I can't do something then he will just tell me that my life is not that hard and I need to stop complaining. He honestly done not care if things don't get done. I really don't cook dinner for him because he works 3PM-11PM. Everything else is just stuff that he doesn't care about so he won't waste his time doing it. I can't make him care no matter how much I want to. He would absolutely be ok with me quitting everything. But I'm not. And I'm not going to give up what I'm doing just so he can continue to do nothing. Like I stated previously, I am not complain about my busy schedule. I love it. But I need him to participate and be a partner.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

AB,

For a good portion of time in my former life I recruited in the Finance and Accounting industry. Who is going to do all that work when you get your CPA because you are not going to have time for it and climb that ladder to success. 

You mentioned you are a type A and it shows but do not let it be your fatal flaw. If you read the posts again you know there are way to many Cons maintaining the status quo. Sometimes ultimatums are good.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You obviously summed it up correctly when you said you can't make him care. The two of you look at this very differently. The threat of divorce might wake him up to what he's about to lose but it might not. 

I did do it all -- for decades. My husband's career was more demanding than mine (although mine was demanding enough) and that was his excuse. I ignored the resentment I felt because all those things needed to be done in order to make our family function so I did them. When I needed help I hired it but the feeling that I didn't have a real partner -- just someone else to take care of -- remained for as long as I was married. 

I don't recommend the way I lived my life.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

AngelaBecca said:


> We bring home almost the exact same amount. Difference is $5-$10 per paycheck. But insurance and 401K come out of his check. Honestly, even if he were to bring home substantially more than I do it still does not excuse this behavior. After I finish school I will be in a position to earn 4-5 times more than he does currently. Would that make this situation even worse?


I was not suggesting that the level of income excuses anything. I was asking about this to help understand his way of thinking. I was wondering if he made a lot more income so he felt that he contributes more that way and thus does not need to help at home. It's a lousy attitude but some people think that way.

Since you both earn about the same, I guess that's not part of his thinking.

When will you finish school?

Based on what you have told us about him, I think that if you were to earn 4-5 times what he earns, things are going to get a lot worse. He will most likely have some serious self esteem issues and really act out. And you are most likely going to be resentful of him not contributing more.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

AngelaBecca said:


> Wow! This is an amazing perspective! Thank you for your insight!
> Things I do for him:
> His laundry
> His dishes
> ...


So what if he would just wash one outfit right before work? That’s his problem, not yours.

This is where you are contributing to the problem. You have to have it your way. He did not do the laundry the way you think it needs to be done, so you had to take that chore over again. You are part of the problem. You taught him that all he needs to do is to act like a boy and his mommy (you) will jump in and do his work for him.

Seriously, stop doing his laundry. Why would you care if he washes on outfit at a time? Don’t you have enough to do and to worry about?



AngelaBecca said:


> His office became a pigsty that stank to high heaven because that's where the dog stays when he is inside. Trash, dishes, clothes would piles up and I didn't want my boys around that so honestly I just couldn't take it. I can't live like that haha. It was basically like having a roommate from hell. If I don't buy the groceries that he likes then he ends up eating mine and the boys food, so what good does that do? It only pisses me off even more. If I don't get his bills paid, the ones that are in his name such as student loans, car payment, etc. then that could effect me negatively (if i choose to stay with him). I could stop making his appointments such as doctor, dentist etc. But that's about it. Honestly, going that direction feels like a game to me. I don't want to play games. I'm a grown woman and I need him to be a grown man and respect and care about his home and family.


Yes, you need him to be a grown man. But you have to accept the fact that the man you married is not emotionally a grown man. He’s a child emotionally. You cannot make him be who you want him to be. What you see is what you get. 

The only person you can change is yourself. You would benefit from stopping doing his laundry and could find a way to do less for him. Then he can choose whether or not he is going to change. 

You stopped doing his laundry, but he did not do his laundry the way you think it need to be done so you started doing it again. You did not give him the chance to do it his way. I see some co-dependency in your actions with this. He’s emotionally stunted and you are enabling it. 

*You would probably benefit from reading the book Co-Dependent No More*

Here is an idea for groceries. Walmart now has order on-line groceries. You put through the order online and pay for it. Then someone goes and picks them up… they do the shopping and put the groceries in your car. Other grocery stores are doing that now too. In some places they are delivering. 

Maybe you could order the groceries online and tell him to go pick them up. If he does nto, then you cancel the order and you take the kids out to eat. Just leave him there.

Or just do the easy thing and divorce him. Once you are divorce, he’s going to have to do his own housework, shopping and child care when the kids are with him.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

AngelaBecca said:


> I completely agree with you. I could hire someone to do every single chore around the house and I wouldn't have to do anything. The thing is, I don't mind doing all of those things. I have done them for years and I enjoy taking care of and providing for my sons and showing them an example of a good mother/wife. My issue is that he REFUSES to pitch in and then turns around and criticizes me for the things I do, let alone appreciate any of it. On top of that, I get nothing in return. If the sex was good I could probably deal with everything else BUT to have good sex there has to be sex to begin with so.....there's that. I guess this is the curse of having a type A personality.....I can't leave things undone, even to prove a point.


Um, you said that you are exhausted from work, school, housework and child care. Now you say that the only issue is that there is not enough sex and he's not 'helping' you? From all you have said so far, I don't believe for a minute that you don't mind doing all this stuff... you are here complaining about it.

You think that you are giving your children an example of a great mom who is exhausting herself doing everything. You might want to rethink that. Do you really think that seeing their mother working herself to exhaustion is good for your children? Do you think that they are going to think that it's wonderful that their mother exhausted herself like this? What a message.. I love you so much that I exhausted myself for you when I could have hired some help. But see how much I love you? I exhausted myself for you. Martyrdom is a very quick way to drive everyone away from you... your husband and your children (when they are in their teens).

Plus, what do you think your son's are learning? Unless you do something drastic here, they are learning to be just like their father. He's the one in the relationship with all the power... after all you treat him like a king and he treats you like his servant. Who do you think your boys are going to want to be like... their father. 

This is one of the reasons I divorced my son's father. I wanted my son to learn that men who mistreat women lose their wife... that women do not stay with men who act like that.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

AngelaBecca said:


> Ok, so should I be the one to change? Should I just come to terms with the fact that I will always have an extra child to take care of and also the fact that I basically have no husband/partner. I will continue through life probably feeling more lonely than what I would feel like if I were single. What about the sex? Am I suppose to go my whole life without ever having sex again? I'm 27. I don't think that would be possible. It may be my fault that he is the way he is and that I spoiled him and trained him to expect nothing less but please keep in mind that I started our marriage out doing all of these things because I thought I should. I thought I was making him happy and just contributing to our marriage. But at the time we had no kids and I didn't have a job. Over the years our situation has changed; adding two kids, me getting and full time job, and me being in grad school. Our situation has changed and I have conformed to that but he hasn't. It took a long time for me to put the pieces together about what he was turning into. It didn't happen over night. It took many many little things for this to build up into what it is now. Please don't take this as condescending or that I have an attitude. I just didn't know how to word that in a nice way. I appreciate your input!


Yes you have to change. But not the way you seem to think. Not change to just accept that he's not a partner, that there is no love and no sex.

The way you change one of two ways.

1) you destabilize the marriage to the point of turning his world upside down. You stop doing things for him. You tell him that you will be filing for divorce if he does not start doing 50% of the housework and childcare. You give him 24 hours to make those changes. He might not make them. But that's his choice. If he does not, you file for divorce.

or 

2) forget about #1, just file for divorce. Just file, divorce him and get on with your life. You will still being doing everything in your home. But you will have one less child to take care of.

Your husband has no reason to change. You told him that no matter how much he's not a partner, does not want sex with you and does not take 50% responsibility for the house and the kids, you will not leave him. So why would he change?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

AngelaBecca, my last few posts might seem harsh. I'm not trying to beat up on you. I'm trying to get you to see some of the dynamics that you can change.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Well few go into marriage planning to divorce. 

You aren't special in this sense. What makes people different is what they're willing to put up with before they are willing to divorce. 

I appreciate that you want to set an example for your sons....i have sons too.

But consider that example you're actually setting... that mom works and does everything while dad doesn't lift a finger after work. That's what they'll expect out of their own marriages, and it will make them poor husbands.

They'll be just like their dad.... you're keeping this cycle going.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

So you are sleeping 5 or 6 hours a night?
No wonder you feel trapped. 
I like that you sleep at the same time he does.
Does he have specific household responsibilities?


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## AngelaBecca (Sep 22, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> So you are sleeping 5 or 6 hours a night?
> No wonder you feel trapped.
> I like that you sleep at the same time he does.
> Does he have specific household responsibilities?


I sleep while he stays up and plays video games. He comes to bed sometime while I'm still asleep. Usually around 5 am. When he comes to bed he sets the house alarm and I can see what time he set it the next day. He sleeps until about 1-2 pm when he has to go to work.


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## AngelaBecca (Sep 22, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> Well few go into marriage planning to divorce.
> 
> You aren't special in this sense. What makes people different is what they're willing to put up with before they are willing to divorce.
> 
> ...


Sadly, many people, especially from my generation, go into marriage thinking "well if we aren't happy we can always get a divorce. No big deal." I don't think that way. That's all I was trying to say. It breaks me heart to think I'll be divorced with two kids before I'm even 30. I really wanted to be able to say that we made it. But it is what it is I guess


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## AngelaBecca (Sep 22, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> AngelaBecca, my last few posts might seem harsh. I'm not trying to beat up on you. I'm trying to get you to see some of the dynamics that you can change.


I understand. From what you know about my situation I can definitely see your thought process here. And I can see where I came across as complaining but let me give you my current deliemma and maybe that will explain what I mean when I say I need help sometimes. 

So my son's 5th birthday party is today. We are having a pool party at our house. (We live in Alabama so it's still hot here). Anyways, to get ready for this party the house needed to be cleaned, pool cleaned, yard mowed, food bought and prepared, gift bought and wrapped blah blah blah. I asked H to do the yard work so I could have time to get everything else done on top of my daily schedule. He didn't do any of it. So needless to say some things didn't get done because I literally did not have time to do it. Unless I wanted to piss off my neighbors by mowing the yard at 2am haha. The house, food and gifts are ready and I'm about to go clean the pool before everyone gets here. H is currently sleeping. I could go wake him up but that will be a fight and the pool still won't be clean. He thinks that I wanted to have the birthday party for my son so I need to get it all done myself; Why should he have to do anything for it; No one will care that the grass is mowed. That's good because the yard didn't get mowed lol. I'm not at all complaining about doing any of this. I'm complaining about H not pitching in when I don't have time to get it all done. 

Another example: I need new tires on my car. They are pretty bad. But I haven't had time to leave work for an hour and get them changed. I could do it after work but then I'd have both of the boys with my trying to entertain them for an hour by myself. Again, its inconvenient but not complaining about it. Now H has from 8am-3pm all to himself while I'm at work and the boys at daycare. It would be really nice if he could come get my car and get new tires while I'm at work. But it's my car so I need to handle it. Do you see where this is going?? 

I never once said that I was exhausted. I don't need a lot of sleep. I thrive on chaos haha. Again, I'm not complaining about what I do on a daily basis. I will still have to do these things if I decided to get a divorce so what good would a divorce do me if that was my issue? My issue is that I want my partner to WANT to do some things for me to make my life easier. I want him to WANT to have sex with me. I want him to WANT to be a part of this marriage and be an active participant. I don't want him to do 50% of the housework. I don't think marriage is 50/50. It's 100/100. You do any and everything you can to help and show your SO that you love and care about them. Now I'm not nieve enough to believe that marriage should be like that all the time or even to that great of an extent. But I do expect it atleast sometimes. Or atleast TRY.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Angela, honestly he doesn't sound like someone who's happy in this marriage, it sounds like he's already checked out.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

They never believe you are going to leave until you do. Then, suddenly...believer! And it's too late.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

AngelaBecca said:


> I never once said that I was exhausted. I don't need a lot of sleep. I thrive on chaos haha. Again, I'm not complaining about what I do on a daily basis. I will still have to do these things if I decided to get a divorce so what good would a divorce do me if that was my issue?


No sex, doesn't take care of the kids or house or yard or anything he can leave to you. What good does it do to keep him? Does he add _any_ value to your life?



AngelaBecca said:


> My issue is that I want my partner to WANT to do some things for me to make my life easier. I want him to WANT to have sex with me. I want him to WANT to be a part of this marriage and be an active participant. I don't want him to do 50% of the housework. I don't think marriage is 50/50. It's 100/100. You do any and everything you can to help and show your SO that you love and care about them. Now I'm not naive enough to believe that marriage should be like that all the time or even to that great of an extent. But I do expect it at least sometimes. Or at least TRY.


You can't have that with this partner.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

AngelaBecca said:


> He takes advantage of the fact that he can get away with not doing anything because he knows I'm not going anywhere. I don't believe in divorce and I am trying everything to avoid that option.


So, you've basically built your own prison because you don't 'believe' in divorce. So you refuse to leave him, even though Mr. Self Entitled seems to think having a penis somehow precludes him from having to lift a finger around the house or to help raise his kids.

It's not "helping you." It's called doing his SHARE. When you BOTH work 40 hours weeks, it's called doing your share.

That's where you keep making your mistake. You keep insinuating that everything is *YOUR* responsibility and he needs to '*help*' you. 

As far as sex, why would you WANT this worthless ass-hole to touch you?


> He emotionally abuses me every single day and I feel like nothing I do is ever good enough because I have no one in my corner telling me that it is. So when is enough, enough? He takes advantage of my "no scorecard policy", but is that fair? I continually give him the benefit of the doubt and all he ever does is take it for granted.


And on TOP of being a worthless lazy ass at home, Mr. Charming is also emotionally and verbally abusive.

Except fro bringing home a paycheck, this complete ass-hole serves NO purpose to anyone.

If you want to be married to a complete ass-hole who brings absolutely *NOTHING* to the table and sees you as nothing more than the housekeeper, the maid, wet nurse, laundress, cook, and bed-wench and disrespects you on a daily basis, then you need to figure out *why* you're willing to settle for SO precious little.

You say you need a partner - this ass-hole isn't it. He's a spoiled little self-entitled jackass who thinks the world owes him something.

I'd boot his worthless ass out of the house so hard and so fast his MOTHER would feel it.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

AngelaBecca said:


> I sleep while he stays up and plays video games. He comes to bed sometime while I'm still asleep. Usually around 5 am. When he comes to bed he sets the house alarm and I can see what time he set it the next day. He sleeps until about 1-2 pm when he has to go to work.


Thanks for the follow up, This guy is an idiot. from three perspectives:

1) Emotionally, sleeping together keeps couples together he is deliberately choosing not to sleep with you. 

2) Financially, if he adjusted his sleeping schedule you could save 5 hours of day care a week. That's a lot of Clams.

3) Long term. He is alienating you by refusing your simple requests. A little bit of effort on his part would yield a long term happy marriage. In order for him to take on household chores he will have to give up late night gaming. But long term he gets a happy wife with a greatly improved income. earlier retirement, happy children, and so on.

When I look this over I see addiction. He is making very poor choices that hurt him short and long term. Very Unhealthy. Now the only question is what is it that he is really addicted to? gaming?, affair? or worse?

All in all it doesn't look good. also you need more sleep most likely. but you know your needs better than I could.
MN

P.S. About the tires, my tire shop will pick up my vehicle from my work and return it when done. Maybe it is just a small town thing, but it may be worth asking.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> .
> . . . . .
> I'd boot his worthless ass out of the house so hard and so fast his MOTHER would feel it.


I usually don't agree with a lot of what she's still got it writes. She has a lot of animosity towards men, and tends to be over the top. But in this case, if I am right and there is some addiction at work here, I would wholeheartedly agree with this recommendation. the only way to overcome addiction is for the addicted person to admit that they have a problem, and for them to Want to fix it


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

AngelaBecca said:


> Sadly, many people, especially from my generation, go into marriage thinking "well if we aren't happy we can always get a divorce. No big deal." I don't think that way. That's all I was trying to say. It breaks me heart to think I'll be divorced with two kids before I'm even 30. I really wanted to be able to say that we made it. But it is what it is I guess


I disagree with that. We see loads of people here at TAM that have huge issues but don't want a divorce. I doubt many married people think divorce is no big deal.

And how could they? Especially with kids? Nobody wants to see their kids part time and split assets. Divorce is a big deal.

BUT, i truly believe that many marriages could be saved if the unhappy spouse, particularly when it's the wife (mainly because once we're done that's usually it) played hardball before they got to that point.

You're falling into that trap right now..... you don't want a divorce so you're not willing to play hardball, and your hb knows you're not going anywhere. I can almost guarantee that when you get to the point that you're done he'll be shocked because he knows you're unhappy but he didn't realize you were unhappy enough to leave.

He's getting his needs met so whether you're happy isn't an issue for him..... only that you're there taking care of him. 

If you kicked him out while you're still invested you might be able to salvage things.

But if you wait until you're done there won't be anything he can do. 

Fyi, I divorced my kids dad when they were 5 and 2 in large part because i didn't want them to think the way he treated me was ok. They're much better off.....teenagers now and doing great.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

AngelaBecca said:


> Sadly, many people, especially from my generation, go into marriage thinking "well if we aren't happy we can always get a divorce. No big deal." I don't think that way. That's all I was trying to say. It breaks me heart to think I'll be divorced with two kids before I'm even 30. I really wanted to be able to say that we made it. But it is what it is I guess


I'm 53 and I grew up in a tiny town out in the middle no where in Midwest farming area. I was raised in a culture that "didn't believe in divorce."
People were raised to stick it out and remain married through thick and thin and death was the only valid thing to end a marriage. Your grandparents probably were raised the same way and probably raised your parents the same.

THEY WERE WRONG. 

My upbringing was wrong. If your parents and grandparents told you that death is the only valid option of ending a marriage, then try were wrong too.

If young adults today believe that divorce is a valid option and a doable option if they are miserable and are being mistreated, then it is because they have learned from the MISTAKES of previous generations and they have a better grasp of what options are available to them today.

Yes you CAN get a divorce and yes you will be fine and it will be OK. 

It will cost you a few thousand dollars in court costs and lawyer fees. If you have shared marital assets, accounts and properties, those will need to be divided fairly between you. And you will need to have a coparenting plan for the care and well being of the children.

Joint shared custody is now the standard assuming that both parties are gainfully employed and capable of providing adequate care and assuming that neither is abusive, criminally negligent, chemically addicted or a pedophile. 

You both are employed with similar incomes. No one will be left destitute here. No one will be living below the poverty line and no one will be hamstrung with crippling alimony or child support.

The biggest inconvenience you will face is trading off kids on schedule and deciding who gets kids in which holiday and which birthdays.

Let's not act like any animals will be harmed in the filming of this motion picture.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Now that that is out of the way, we need to decide if this is a viable option for you.

This comes down to a very simple formula - will you be better off with him (as he really is, not what you want him to be) or will you be better off without him?

Will having your own place that you can clean to your heart's content with only your two kids a few days a week, be better or worse than having all of you under one roof????

That's the question. That is what it all boils down to.

Are you better off with him (as he really is) or are you better off without him?

Will your life be better or worse as a half-time single mother in your own home without him in it? 

Or as it is now?

A or B?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Now the grandparents and the moralists and the church ladies are all going to be screaming -"but the children!!!!! :-O "

Ok let's talk about the children and their well being.

Children need love, involvement, nuturing, guidence, proper nutrition, exercise, play, sleep, friends, and a safe environment that is free from rodents, insects, violence, neglect, abandonment, molestation and chemical addiction.

Will they have that if you divorce?

Now frankly, at the moment he certainly does not sound like he'll get my nomination for Father of the Year.

But on his custodial days, will he feed them nutritious food, protect them from preditors, love them and be involved in their lives?

Will he beat them, neglect them, abandon them, molest them or or be passed out drunk while he has them?

Obviously he will have a learning curve ahead of him and he will have an adjustment period where he has to learn to cool and stuff since you've allowed him to play video games while you do all the cooking. 

But realistically speaking, is he a functional, adult human being that is capable of providing the basic needs and safety of his own biological children?

If the answer truly is a sincer no, then you screwed up by spreading your legs for him in the first place and you will have a little more legal work to do in court.

But assuming he is not abusive, chemically addicted, criminally negligent or a pedophile, then he is capable of stepping up to the plate in providing a safe, stable and loving environment for them a few days a week.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Now just for ****s and giggles, let look at his well being if you were to split.

A man's primary need in marriage is a sexual connection and companionship with his wife. 

It doesn't sound like he is getting that at all now anyway. You even make it sound like he is the one that isn't interested in a sex life with you.

Divorce for him may actually come down to being able to do what he wants on the days you have the kids and he won't have to listen to you complaining or bugging him at all.

He may be all for this and be all over it if it were to be an option available to him.

His biggest challenge may be having the kids in his own for a few days, but in his mind the kid-free days of peace and quiet that you have them may be worth it to him. 

If he truly is not father material, he may be perfectly ok with letting you have primary custody and him paying some child support.

He may consider that as sanity money well spent.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

...... He could date and may even be able to find a lazy, slacker chick like him that would enjoy laying around the house doing nothing. 

He may be all for this.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

So the bottom line here is divorce may be a perfectly reasonable and valid option for both of you here and it may be the best thing for everyone. Divorce is not always a dark and evil force that destroys all in it's path.

At my age, I've met and known a lot of divorced people. 

A few (and I do mean just a few) of them are naturally kind if bummed that their spouse met someone else and dumped them cold out of the blue when they thought everything was fine.

But the vast majority have no regrets and in looking back, wish that they had done it sooner.

That doesn't mean there weren't some tears and weren't some lawyer bills that took a bite out of their bank account that took a little while to build back up.

But divorce today between two gainfully employed adults is different than our grandparent's divorce that left a single mother and children in poverty and a father that was living hand to mouth due to paying the big majority of his income in alimony and child support for children he was only allowed to see every other weekend and a couple weeks in the summer.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

And finally let's look for a silver lining a ray of hope here.

I feel very confident in saying he will never be the ball of fire and ambitious career climber or SuperDad or magnificent family man that you would really want.

However, assuming he is a functional human being, he may be able to step up to the plate and at least be better than nothing if he had a serious, lifestyle-altering wake up call. 

If you were to find a place for you and the kids, file paperwork for a legal separation with shared child care arrangments lived on your own in your own home for awhile and made it clear that your current lifestyle is unacceptable for you and that you won't be coming back unless he becomes an involved and active husband and father - he may step up.

Being in the house alone for half the week and then having to take care of the kids on his own for a week, might make him decide he would rather join the program rather than play video games all night.

Or it may not. He may love it and want to divorce and move on. 

But either way it will blow up the status quo and allow you to move forward with some sanity and peace in your life.


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## VibrantWings (Sep 8, 2017)

AngelaBecca said:


> I do understand your point and they are both valid given that you didn't have the information you needed. We both decided to get married, buy a house, and have both of our children. None of those were by accident and they all were choices we made together. I was my choice to go to work but he fully supported it given that we needed the extra income. The kids were taken care of and his life wouldn't change so why not? More stress off of him. Now in my career field I cannot advance without a certain certificate (CPA) hence why I'm in the MBA program getting my masters so i can sit for my CPA test. This was a conversation we had together and he agreed that this is what I should do. There was absolutely no negativity in any of these conversations. Quite the opposite. We were both excited about a brighter future. The conversations were filled with promises about how he would help out more and step up. Just like our counseling sessions where he would leave with promises of doing better but never did. Now, I realize that it's my own fault for believing him time after time. But that doesn't help my current situation. If I go to him and tell him that I can't do something then he will just tell me that my life is not that hard and I need to stop complaining. He honestly done not care if things don't get done. I really don't cook dinner for him because he works 3PM-11PM. Everything else is just stuff that he doesn't care about so he won't waste his time doing it. I can't make him care no matter how much I want to. He would absolutely be ok with me quitting everything. But I'm not. And I'm not going to give up what I'm doing just so he can continue to do nothing. Like I stated previously, I am not complain about my busy schedule. I love it. But I need him to participate and be a partner.


You remind me so much of myself many moons ago....having to "prove" over and over and over how strong I am. That **** was never-ending and became absolutely back breaking when all the other issues in my marriage were factored in.
I don't look back and say "how did I do it?" but rather WHY did I do it? 
He was my second marriage, I was running for forever with a man I loved very much. Problem was that he is one of those guys that get married to be taken care of.....like they're getting adopted. The "husbandly duty" part of marriage never really concerns them. 
He is NOT GOING TO CHANGE. Period. Nope. Never. Nada. 




EleGirl said:


> So what if he would just wash one outfit right before work? That’s his problem, not yours.
> 
> This is where you are contributing to the problem. You have to have it your way. He did not do the laundry the way you think it needs to be done, so you had to take that chore over again. You are part of the problem. You taught him that all he needs to do is to act like a boy and his mommy (you) will jump in and do his work for him.
> 
> ...


She is correct...you are an enabler just like I was. 
Is your husband good about paying bills? Sure he works but is blowing all his money on video games or whatever?Is he at least reliable in some way?
Not enough reason to keep putting up with his **** but at least ONE thing? Doesn't sound like he spends any time with his own children either. 



Mr. Nail said:


> Thanks for the follow up, This guy is an idiot. from three perspectives:
> 
> 1) Emotionally, sleeping together keeps couples together he is deliberately choosing not to sleep with you.
> 
> ...


What I was thinking....all that time on his computer? It's more than simple escapism...there is something he wants in there. A person? He's not having sex with you? Is he your age? If he is then who in hell is he having sex with?
Computer love and cam time I suppose....

I could go with five to six hours sleep in my twenties, as well. How I managed to go to full time job (with lots of overtime}, go to tech school at night with a child. You are burning up your youth...for what? For a hope of a better life for yourself and your kids? Sure- well worth it. For that guy? Nah...trust me on this part.
Being a single parent is no different than what you are doing....other than if he's paying half the bills and bully for him to care enough to set the alarm. 
Lol, with the alarm, do you even really need a man in the house? He doesn't do jack and the alarm is probably a better caretaker of you and the kids than he is. 



lifeistooshort said:


> I disagree with that. We see loads of people here at TAM that have huge issues but don't want a divorce. I doubt many married people think divorce is no big deal.
> 
> And how could they? Especially with kids? Nobody wants to see their kids part time and split assets. Divorce is a big deal.
> 
> ...


She is absolutely right about that "Being Done" part. I remember vividly. after the implosion of my marriage of many years, people wanted to know "what happened?" What happened? All I really had to say after sooooo many long years of never ending bull****, all i could muster was enough energy to say "i'm done". That summed it up. There was no chance of reconciliation. I jumped off that ride and I'm never getting on it again. 

Where is your breaking point? Do you even love this man? I ask because it sounds like a point of loyalty towards marriage vows instead of a real marriage/partnership. What loyalty does he show towards you? Anything??? If you cannot name something, then that speaks volumes on it's own. 

Good luck to you. I believe that I understand you fully....and hope you're quicker to act than I was in the end.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I don't know how many more ways this guy could say "I don't love you". Maybe if he rents a billboard you'll get the message.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Everyone else here has given you so much good advice, especially @oldshirt and @EleGirl. I want to second everything they said.

Your husband has checked out of this marriage, completely. He doesn't want to be married to you, but he feels like he's stuck because you've made it clear that divorce isn't an option, so he has decided (perhaps subconsciously) that he will do everything to make you feel as miserable as he does.

I will tell you what my IC/MC said to me (I'm paraphrasing, but it's pretty damn close to what she actually said):
"I'm not on anyone's side. My job is to be on the side of the marriage, and help you fix the marriage. So I don't say this lightly, I never say this. You need to divorce him, if you ever want to be happy again. You can stay married, and be miserable for the rest of your life. Or you can divorce him, and find happiness on your own terms. Because this marriage can't be saved. For that to happen, he would have to make too many changes, changes he is either unwilling or unable to make. This marriage cannot be fixed. If you need permission or someone to tell you it's ok to leave him, then I'm giving you permission. You've done everything you could, and he's not on board. You need both people to fix a relationship, and he's not willing to do what it takes. You have my blessing to divorce him."

My situation was very similar to yours, minus the kids, down to the work schedule differences, the video games, the sexlessness, the potential addiction. The similarities are uncanny. He has checked out completely, but he's so apathetic about the situation that he will never leave or file for divorce, he will just be passive aggressive and make you miserable. The only way anything changes is if you do something about it, because he will never change.


Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

AngelaBecca said:


> Everything else is just stuff that he doesn't care about so he won't waste his time doing it. I can't make him care no matter how much I want to.


Of course. You cannot make anybody do anything that they don't perceive as having value.

Why does he not care about some of the stuff? Is it stuff that, in his view, if ignored, will do no damage? If his point is valid, then why are you working yourself so hard?

When you decided to do the MBA, what were your agreements on things that would cease. It is unreasonable for you to do the MBA and have everything you can no longer do become his job. Things must slide. More frozen dinners for the kids, you'll tolerate a higher level of clutter and dust in the house, and so on.

I'm not saying you do this, but many women believe that when they take on something like a degree program, they're not "good enough" if doing so allows other responsibilities of theirs to slip. Let them slip.

Just my barking opinion....DumbDustyDog


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

AngelaBecca said:


> I sleep while he stays up and plays video games. He comes to bed sometime while I'm still asleep. Usually around 5 am. When he comes to bed he sets the house alarm and I can see what time he set it the next day. He sleeps until about 1-2 pm when he has to go to work.


This was the dynamic with my ex husband (also a gamer). I also did the majority of chores and cooking, and shopping because he was agoraphobic.

We didn't last for other reasons but I was seriously considering leaving the marriage if he didn't grow up.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Looks like we lost our OP.

I think some people come here looking for advice on how to change their partner.

Others come her to vent look for insight on how to cope with what they can't change.

And others come here looking for praise and admiration on how much they can endure and sacrifice.


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## AngelaBecca (Sep 22, 2017)

Sorry, I've been a little busy the past couple of days and honestly I have been using this time to absorb everything that has been posted. Most if it makes perfect sense. However, I hate that people have perceived me as someone that is over doing it and working myself too hard and getting mad at my husband because he does not do as much as I do. Even if I did absolutely nothing but be a stay at home mom and did everything around the house, it would still upset me that I can't get him to care about anything other than video games. I was just giving you insight into our daily lives for you to get a picture of how bad it actually is. I do let a lot of things go. I have to to keep my sanity. But they don't have to be let go if he would pick up the slack. Again, I don't think it's fair that I should have to give up something so he can do nothing. I've never asked him to give up video games....just wait until everything else is done. I don't feel like I'm over doing anything or wasting my youth. What else should I be doing instead? If anyone is wasting their life away it's my husband and I'll admit, I enabled him to do it but by the time I realized it it was already too late. Now, about divorce not being an option. It is an option but is one I am desperately trying to avoid. We have actually talked about it a few times in the past few months and that's why we started going to counseling. He doesn't want a divorce. He told me that if I want to leave him then I need to plan on leaving everything; the kids, the house, etc. He would make it as difficult as possible. I guess he doesn't want a divorce because he would lose his piece of cake life. I'm not sure. But I do know there is no love between us anymore. He is a great dad, I'll give him that. He has changed diapers and made bottles and little things like that and I don't have any doubt in my mind that the boys would be well taken care of with him. When it comes to the boys he will do anything for them. Just not me. And after the boys are grown and gone we will literally have nothing holding us together anymore. I;m not looking for praise and admiration in any way. I promise I would give anything to not be in this situation. I hate fighting, I hate nagging and I hate feeling unwanted and rejected every single day. So trust me, that's not why I'm here. Honestly, I came here to see if I was overreacting and blowing this out of proportion and to see what other people would do if they were in my situation. Just like I have enabled him to be the way he is, he has molded me to believe that this is the best it's ever going to be....marriage is hard, suck it up and deal with it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

AngelaBecca said:


> Sorry, I've been a little busy the past couple of days and honestly I have been using this time to absorb everything that has been posted. Most if it makes perfect sense. However, I hate that people have perceived me as someone that is over doing it and working myself too hard and getting mad at my husband because he does not do as much as I do. Even if I did absolutely nothing but be a stay at home mom and did everything around the house, it would still upset me that I can't get him to care about anything other than video games. I was just giving you insight into our daily lives for you to get a picture of how bad it actually is. I do let a lot of things go. I have to to keep my sanity. But they don't have to be let go if he would pick up the slack. Again, I don't think it's fair that I should have to give up something so he can do nothing. I've never asked him to give up video games....just wait until everything else is done. I don't feel like I'm over doing anything or wasting my youth. What else should I be doing instead? If anyone is wasting their life away it's my husband and I'll admit, I enabled him to do it but by the time I realized it it was already too late. Now, about divorce not being an option. It is an option but is one I am desperately trying to avoid. We have actually talked about it a few times in the past few months and that's why we started going to counseling. He doesn't want a divorce. He told me that if I want to leave him then I need to plan on leaving everything; the kids, the house, etc. He would make it as difficult as possible. I guess he doesn't want a divorce because he would lose his piece of cake life. I'm not sure. But I do know there is no love between us anymore. He is a great dad, I'll give him that. He has changed diapers and made bottles and little things like that and I don't have any doubt in my mind that the boys would be well taken care of with him. When it comes to the boys he will do anything for them. Just not me. And after the boys are grown and gone we will literally have nothing holding us together anymore. I;m not looking for praise and admiration in any way. I promise I would give anything to not be in this situation. I hate fighting, I hate nagging and I hate feeling unwanted and rejected every single day. So trust me, that's not why I'm here. Honestly, I came here to see if I was overreacting and blowing this out of proportion and to see what other people would do if they were in my situation. Just like I have enabled him to be the way he is, he has molded me to believe that this is the best it's ever going to be....marriage is hard, suck it up and deal with it.


I'm glad you decided to come back.

I do not think you are blowing things out of proportion. I think you have legitimate grievance.

In fact there are a few of us here that believe you aren't quite grasping how bad this situation really is.

If anything, I think you are doing a lot if spackling here and missing a lot of the bright red flags flapping in the wind.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

So here are a few more points in no particular order - 

- have you actually observed him playing video games all night or have you hacked into his computer to see what he is really doing all night?

I'd bet real good money he is either spanking to porn or even having some kind of cyber interaction with another woman/women.

Unless he is an actual video game addict (which is a big problem in and of itself) video games aren't that fun to be up all night all week. 

I'd put more money on some kind of affair or porn. 

- if you were to file for divorce, he would not be able to keep the kids or all the property and marital assets from you. The courts are mandated to divide the marital assets and contact and care of the kids fairly and equitably.

He can huff and puff and whine, and he can argue minute details like who gets the couch and he can slow the process somewhat depending on how many motions and injunctions he tries to pull.
But at the end of the day the court is going to award a fair and equitable distribution of the marital assets and access to the children.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

AngelaBecca said:


> . I guess he doesn't want a divorce because he would lose his piece of cake life.
> 
> 
> I do know there is no love between us anymore.


These two statements are 100% correct and it should be your "Ah Hah!" Moment.

The question for you to determine is are you willing to completely work yourself into the ground so he can continue to have his cake while he does nothing for you in return? 

Are you willing to continue giving him his piece of cake life while getting nothing from him in return knowing that there is no pot of gold for you at the end of the rainbow here?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

On the sex issue.
The lack of sex issue.

That would be a deal breaker. You are only 27. No way should a man let you go sexless. He should double park his pick-up next to your wagon 3 times a week, minimum.

What are his excuses for lack of sex? Did I miss that?

Is he intimidated?
Not in love with you?
Is he getting it elsewhere?

WTH?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Please don't allow his threats to keep you from doing what's best for you and for your children. Consult an attorney and figure out what a divorce would actually look like, logistically, so that you're better armored against his foolishness. He's threatening you with taking the kids, house, all the assets, to keep you afraid of leaving him. He's doing it because he doesn't want to lose his sweet setup, where you handle all the real-life stuff while he gets to enjoy his perpetual childhood being taken care of by "mommy". But it _is_ an empty threat. Unless he can prove that you're a grossly unfit parent (and that bar is quite high) and you signed an iron-clad pre-nup, there's just absolutely no way the court would grant him full custody and all the assets. And, really, it seems pretty unlikely that he could be assed to actually follow through with the long, complicated, and very expensive court battle that would need to be waged to even try for that. 

It's also pretty unlikely that he actually _wants_ full custody of your children. What he actually wants is for you to shut up and sit down and keep supporting his low-responsibility lifestyle. Can you honestly see him getting a new job with a more child-friendly schedule, cutting out his gaming habit to the occasional hour or two, cooking every meal, cleaning the house, doing all the laundry, changing every diaper, handling every feeding, getting up with the baby every night, running the littles to school or the pediatrician or soccer or dance every time? Be honest about who he is as a person, about his personality. If he won't do that now when he has help, do you imagine he _really_ wants to take it all on alone?


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

AngelaBecca said:


> And after the boys are grown and gone we will literally have nothing holding us together anymore.


Re-read this. This isn't a marriage you describe. It's two co-parents sharing a residence. It seems to me the marriage is over other than in terms of living arrangements and court documents.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rowan said:


> Please don't allow his threats to keep you from doing what's best for you and for your children. Consult an attorney and figure out what a divorce would actually look like, logistically, so that you're better armored against his foolishness. He's threatening you with taking the kids, house, all the assets, to keep you afraid of leaving him. He's doing it because he doesn't want to lose his sweet setup, where you handle all the real-life stuff while he gets to enjoy his perpetual childhood being taken care of by "mommy". But it _is_ an empty threat. Unless he can prove that you're a grossly unfit parent (and that bar is quite high) and you signed an iron-clad pre-nup, there's just absolutely no way the court would grant him full custody and all the assets. And, really, it seems pretty unlikely that he could be assed to actually follow through with the long, complicated, and very expensive court battle that would need to be waged to even try for that.
> 
> It's also pretty unlikely that he actually _wants_ full custody of your children. What he actually wants is for you to shut up and sit down and keep supporting his low-responsibility lifestyle. Can you honestly see him getting a new job with a more child-friendly schedule, cutting out his gaming habit to the occasional hour or two, cooking every meal, cleaning the house, doing all the laundry, changing every diaper, handling every feeding, getting up with the baby every night, running the littles to school or the pediatrician or soccer or dance every time? Be honest about who he is as a person, about his personality. If he won't do that now when he has help, do you imagine he _really_ wants to take it all on alone?



Totally this ^^^^^^


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> Re-read this. This isn't a marriage you describe. It's two co-parents sharing a residence. It seems to me the marriage is over other than in terms of living arrangements and court documents.


This is what I was referring to when I said there is no pot of gold waiting for you at the end of the rainbow. 

Even if you somehow managed to remain married until the kids were older, there is nothing waiting for you past that. 

There is no marriage, intimacy, passion or partnership here beyond and additional paycheck for household expenses and some occasional free babysitting if you have to leave the kids at the house for awhile. 

Once the kids are at an age where they no longer need two-parent, hands-on parenting, there really isn't anything left for you here.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

A guy who is too lazy to mow the lawn for his son's birthday party isn't a great dad and certainly isn't a dad who would do anything for his kids.


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## AngelaBecca (Sep 22, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> This is what I was referring to when I said there is no pot of gold waiting for you at the end of the rainbow.
> 
> Even if you somehow managed to remain married until the kids were older, there is nothing waiting for you past that.
> 
> ...


I definitely agree!


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## AngelaBecca (Sep 22, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> A guy who is too lazy to mow the lawn for his son's birthday party isn't a great dad and certainly isn't a dad who would do anything for his kids.


He doesn't think that the grass being cut for the birthday party has anything to do with him taking care of his kids. He doesn't care if it's mowed and he thinks no one else will care either. I can't get him to understand the concept of responsibility and taking care of things. It may be him being lazy and just making excuses not to do things but I honestly think this is more of a mental thing, that he actually can't grasp the concept of it so he just doesn't do it. Which is worse in my opinion. He will never be able to connect the dots.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

AngelaBecca said:


> He doesn't think that the grass being cut for the birthday party has anything to do with him taking care of his kids. He doesn't care if it's mowed and he thinks no one else will care either. I can't get him to understand the concept of responsibility and taking care of things. It may be him being lazy and just making excuses not to do things but I honestly think this is more of a mental thing, that he actually can't grasp the concept of it so he just doesn't do it. Which is worse in my opinion. He will never be able to connect the dots.


Does this apply to any other areas of his life also?

Is he actually connected to anyone at all?

Any chance he may have some autistic traits or some Aspergers Syndrome or something?


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

AngelaBecca said:


> ...it would still upset me that I can't get him to care about anything other than video games....


Ultimately, when someone is at their wits' ends, they have to find the insurmountable barrier. And you've found it.

You can not, ever, change what someone else cares about. You may do things to induce behavior - such as offer to do more stuff if he does more stuff, or to withhold stuff if he doesn't do more stuff - but you cannot change what he cares about. 

I don't know how it is you speak to him about the issue, but if you use phrases like 'grow up', then you're shaming him. And that is never productive. The evidence continues to mount that shaming people leads, almost inevitably, to depression, suicidal thoughts, addiction (such as video games) and violence toward others. Guilt, on the other hand, in controlled doses, can be useful. Guilt is when a person believes that their behavior does not fairly represent who they want to be - and it induces them to alter their behavior. Note that guilt does NOT occur when they believe their behavior doesn't please someone else - that tends to make them feel manipulated.

Based on the thread, I'd be concerned that he has an addiction. Has this possibility been brought up to the MC? IMO, rather than seeing it as addictive behavior, it might be more helpful to ask why he chooses to be with the games instead of his own family. Could it be time to ask him to re-assess his commitment to being a part of the family? That's the real tragedy of addictive behavior in families - even if the person is physically present, they are not really WITH the family.

GL.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WOW! Well... If Mrs. Conan and I were in your situation, I would probably be doing 75% of childcare, 75% of chores, rubbing your feet every night, encouraging you 100% of the time, being ecstatic to jump your bones any chance I got, having dinner ready every night and planning romantic getaways to shake things up a bit.

How did Wonder Woman end up with Homer Simpson????!!!!?


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

OP,

Is there any chance your husband has "went along to get along" with your desires for having it all? Not everyone believes in the lie that "you can have it all". Not every
everyone believes in the big house with white picket fence and 2 kids and all that jazz. Some of us think it's a joke. A horrible joke. 

It took a lot of years for my resentment to boil enough to blow my top and tell my wife what I thought about home ownership and all the damned headaches that go with it. It took a lot of years to admit, that although my kids are the BEST thing to ever happen to me, I decided at the age of 13 that I never wanted kids. To be brutally honest, there's a lot of stuff I went along with so that I didn't cause a fight. You know how the saying goes, happy wife happy life. Well, the moral of the story is that every time I have went against what I really wanted, I have made myself more miserable. 

Granted, I work on the road for a living, and 70 - 100 hours a week is the average. Has been for 10+ years now. I love to work. Work makes me happy. Hard work is good for the soul. There again I have been accused of being a workaholic, so there is that. I don't think so, but whatever. Each person is different. Some people would find this living hell, I don't.

There again, I will humor most of the honey duo's and favors and other stuff on the occasion that I get home. I also take care of my stuff my self. Laundry, cooking, bills and all that stuff, I do on my own. I can add more info, but I don't feel it's necessary. Just food for thought.


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