# The Good Wife: Part 5



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I have been reading recent posts about women and their obligations. 

I will try to keep this short - though as always I can't resist a preface. 

What triggered this post was reading all the well intentioned (and helpful) posts from the fairer sex, to those men whose wives are starving them of affection. And what struck me was the concept that these men had to do a long list of clever things in the hope that they might get some sexual attention. 

Then in some recent posts I read some folks who said, if you are married you shouldn't ever reject him. 

Personally I find both views way too extreme. 

At risk of seeming immodest, I have learned to do all that (sexually stimulating) stuff. Actually I LIKE doing all that stuff being that I love Mrs. MEM. That said, I can't resist sharing what may be an unpopular view. 

There was a time when I got pretty far off track in the "romance" department. And in all sincerity that is COMPLETELY on me. No blameshifting here. I screwed up and persisted in screwing up for several years. 

IMO my better half (and yes she is better, it isn't a cliche in our house, just the truth) handled this perfectly. She didn't pretend to like connecting with me. And at the time I was ANGRY as hell about that. In hindsight, I don't blame her at all. The thing is she didn't refuse me. She just let me know she wasn't feeling desire - not through words so much - but through her actions. And one side effect of my anger was self reflection. And the result of that was a bunch of physical and behavioral changes ALL of which were positive FOR ME, and ALSO for our marriage. 

So - now that I am on the other side of this great divide I have come to the conclusion that: If your H is doing all the basic marital day to day stuff (working, being kind, etc) right, don't starve him to the point of madness. It isn't nice, and the harm may be irreversible. TELL him what you want/need to feel more desire. My W - God bless her - told me half of it. The other half I needed to figure out on my own, and I think that is fair. She wasn't deliberately withholding. Some stuff likely wasn't obvious to her. The stuff that WAS obvious to her, she did tell me. 

I guess the short of it is, unless your H is doing core stuff WRONG, marriage entitles him to enough sex to keep his sanity and most of his self esteem. Yep - entitles. If he is basically a good guy, don't grind him down via deprivation. I just don't like the idea that it is ok to "shut him down" unless he is doing (insert long list of clever, romantic loving stuff).


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

good post.

and some people think others cant change in this way.
glad your wife saw you could.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I like your post Mem. I have trouble reading the word "entitlement" though. It might be my dislike for the word or experience, but I don't believe anyone is ever entitled to anything. I know we think we all are and we're willing to fight for what we feel we are entitled to but my experience is that people rarely get what they deserve.

Having said all this, I would never have sex with my husband because I felt he was entitled. Anything I give will come from love. I know my husband wouldn't want it any other way.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

In my opinion, marriage is completely optional.

If a person chooses to be married, a spouse should feel entitled to a reasonable amount of sex within a marriage. They should feel entitled to monogamy within the marriage, and they should feel entitled to reasonable efforts by their spouse to curb unwanted outlets such as porn and the like. If a spouse cannot meet those entitlements, it would be expected that they leave the marriage out of respect for their partner.

Maybe my opinion is not realistic, but if more people thought that way, the number of new posts on TAM would drop off dramatically.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> I guess the short of it is, unless your H is doing core stuff WRONG, marriage entitles him to enough sex to keep his sanity and most of his self esteem. Yep - entitles. If he is basically a good guy, don't grind him down via deprivation. I just don't like the idea that it is ok to "shut him down" unless he is doing (insert long list of clever, romantic loving stuff).


I think that the forum is just very skewed. In that, the people who would benefit the most from the advice you have given above, are not usually the people who are on the site looking for advice - it's their significant others that are. 

As you found out, it requires an amount of personal commitment and introspection to come to an understanding and a solution, and a man or woman in the position to benefit from your advice often just seems like they are unwilling to do that for whatever reason. Now, if they would they may find some great benefit from it all, just like you did. May they see the light. 

Like Trenton - I don't like the word entitled. A spouse may end up 'giving sex', but if their heart isn't really in to it and they are simply fulfilling their 'duty' because their spouse is 'entitled', it will all still be very hollow. I know because I've been there before. It's not really the sex that's the problem - it's the commitment, or lack thereof, that both have for each other. If anything, we should each be 'entitled' to having that level of commitment from our spouses instead.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

I agree that the word "entitled" suggests coertion, and that can breed resentment in a marriage. I prefer to think of it as meeting each other's needs. Some men don't like that phrase because it suggests "neediness", but spouses must understand that if your relationship is to survive and flourish, you must love each other in a way that your spouse appreciates. For many men this is sex; for many women it is loving words and gestures, activities together, or acts of service.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Trenton said:


> I like your post Mem. I have trouble reading the word "entitlement" though. It might be my dislike for the word or experience, but I don't believe anyone is ever entitled to anything. I know we think we all are and we're willing to fight for what we feel we are entitled to but my experience is that people rarely get what they deserve.
> 
> Having said all this, I would never have sex with my husband because I felt he was entitled. Anything I give will come from love. I know my husband wouldn't want it any other way.


I don’t disagree, but I admit I did not get the same visceral reaction to entitlement that you did. I would reword it to say that each spouse goes into a marriage with the expectation that their spouse will do certain basic things. Sex is one of those basic things, and if one spouse is meeting his/her end of the bargain on basic things, the other spouse should do the same, including having sex.

I agree it should be done out of love, though I would note the difference between loving the action and loving the person. Not that this applies to you, but a LD spouse can easily confuse the two (perhaps to subconsciously justify not have sex). A good spouse does many actions that they may not love because they love their spouse. My wife has a particular TV show that she currently loves. I watch it with her because she loves to talk about it and gets joy out of discussing it with me (at commercials, pausing the show, the next day, etc.). I don’t love the show or the discussions, but I love her, so I do it. My wife may not love sex on a particular day, but she loves me, knows I enjoy it and provides it to me because she loves me, even if she is not loving the act at that point.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don’t disagree, but I admit I did not get the same visceral reaction to entitlement that you did. I would reword it to say that each spouse goes into a marriage with the expectation that their spouse will do certain basic things. Sex is one of those basic things, and if one spouse is meeting his/her end of the bargain on basic things, the other spouse should do the same, including having sex.
> 
> I agree it should be done out of love, though I would note the difference between loving the action and loving the person. Not that this applies to you, but a LD spouse can easily confuse the two (perhaps to subconsciously justify not have sex). A good spouse does many actions that they may not love because they love their spouse. My wife has a particular TV show that she currently loves. I watch it with her because she loves to talk about it and gets joy out of discussing it with me (at commercials, pausing the show, the next day, etc.). I don’t love the show or the discussions, but I love her, so I do it. My wife may not love sex on a particular day, but she loves me, knows I enjoy it and provides it to me because she loves me, even if she is not loving the act at that point.


I think what you describe is something earned as a result of fostering a strong relationship, not something to which one is entitled. "Entitled" connotes that sex is owed as a condition of marriage, as if a wedding ring is a magic key to your wife's vagina. That's not what I think OP was trying to convey. At least that's not what I got from reading the entirety of his post.

IMO, courtship shouldn't end on your wedding day. And it doesn't, regardless of whether I think it should.
That, I think, is what OP was trying to say.

There are exceptions to nearly everything - and I feel for the guys who are living the exceptions - but generally speaking, a guy who continues to be the man his wife fell for is going to continue getting the sexual response he got then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RDJ (Jun 8, 2011)

If interested, here were my thoughts on entitlement.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33462-entitlement.html#post457483


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Man: I do not think it is right that you withhold sex. I think in a marriage this would be somewhat of an entitlement now and then.

Woman: There are no entitlements in marriage. 

Man: I see. Well, I'm worth more than this. I am afraid I will need to dissolve this marriage.

Woman: OK. My lawyer will draw up a plan to get me everything I'm entitled to.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Acorn said:


> Man: I do not think it is right that you withhold sex. I think in a marriage this would be somewhat of an entitlement now and then.
> 
> Woman: There are no entitlements in marriage.
> 
> ...



That is the perfect illustration of why the word "entitlement" kills love in a marriage. Lawyers will not help a marriage where spouses have become disconnected from each other. You cannot force people to want to cherish each other.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Acorn said:


> Man: I do not think it is right that you withhold sex. I think in a marriage this would be somewhat of an entitlement now and then.
> 
> Woman: There are no entitlements in marriage.
> 
> ...


Acorn,

I actually laughed out loud.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Trenton said:


> I like your post Mem. I have trouble reading the word "entitlement" though. It might be my dislike for the word or experience, but I don't believe anyone is ever entitled to anything. I know we think we all are and we're willing to fight for what we feel we are entitled to but my experience is that people rarely get what they deserve.
> 
> Having said all this, I would never have sex with my husband because I felt he was entitled. Anything I give will come from love. I know my husband wouldn't want it any other way.


I agree with most of what you say but let's face it, when we get married we enter into a legal contract which 'entitles' us to certain benefits that others outside the marriage do not qualify for. For example, half of what you earn is yours and the other half is your husband's and vice versa. Also if you get divorce, you may be entitled for long term spousal support. And if your husband dies without a will, you are at the top of the list of heirs to his estate. So it is very easy to see where this sense of entitlement comes from.

There is a long running joke that what kills sexual passion in couples is marriage. Unfortunately there is some truth to it, especially when the mindset of both spouses turns to that of entitlement soon after marriage, it can turn the sex that was once joyfully and freely given when the two were single, into a dreaded chore. The husband believes he is entitled by virtue of marriage to have his wife ready to have sex with him and the wife believes that she is entitled to deny him sex because of his marriage vow to sexually forsake all other women.

Too bad that getting married isn't something that one has to earn like a professional degree. If that were the case, then just maybe people would value it much more than they do presently.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

True, Moir, except that the marriage privilege does not include entitlement to body. I suppose you could argue a church marriage does because of the various doctrines it's based off of but it won't really matter. In the end, unless you build on intimacy, compromise and understanding...it doesn't matter what the man or woman feels entitled to. I'm also a little uncomfortable comparing entitlement of body to entitlement of materialistic assets.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

I understand Trenton, but let's remember that it doesn't matter whether two spouses are religous or atheist, if one of them has a full blown affair (body and soul) the other will rightly feel deeply betrayed for having his/her spouse share his/her love *and body* with another person. The betrayed spouse will feel his/her entitlement to exclusivity to his/her spouse's love and body, violated.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

morituri said:


> I understand Trenton, but let's remember that it doesn't matter whether two spouses are religous or atheist, if one of them has a full blown affair (body and soul) the other will rightly feel deeply betrayed for having his/her spouse share his/her love *and body* with another person. The betrayed spouse will feel his/her entitlement to exclusivity to his/her spouse's love and body, violated.


Can't argue with you there. I would feel devastated.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Lovely thoughts, all around. It would be a far better and happier world if people regularly engaged in reflection. Too many people do not. Mem, had you been a different type of man, your marriage might well not have survived. You have earned your good marriage. 

The reality is, when sex becomes a chore (for either spouse), the marriage is on its way to ending. Sex as a chore will leave a person dreading the other's touch. Many people get to that point without realizing how it has happened; others have fought tooth and nail to prevent that. But it takes two engaged adults to make a succesful and fulfilling marriage. When I read posts on various forums (not this site so much), I'm stunned at the sheer ignorance and immaturity of many, many people. Age is no indicator of growth. So I'm not surprised by the rate of divorce. And I think it is quite telling that relatively few people here strike me that way--TAM posters seem to be the thoughtful type that really want something better (usually). Unfortunately, many are matched with those others who I see on hobby or dating sites--"the clueless," as I sometimes think of them--when I'm feeling generous. ;0 I can think of other names for them when I'm not feeling so generous!


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

But you are right Trenton, NOBODY is entitled to another person's body. 

If we are blessed, the sharing of our bodies represents a gift to one another, a gift which we vow to treat with the utmost love, grattitude and respect.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sis,
Way at the bottom of the trough lost in the darkness, she stayed with me and saved me from myself. Gave herself to me, even when she didn't want to. And now the sun back high in the sky, house filled with laughter, bed roiled with passion, I understand what the people of the book wrote was true, is true and always will be true:

*Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.*




sisters359 said:


> Lovely thoughts, all around. It would be a far better and happier world if people regularly engaged in reflection. Too many people do not. Mem, had you been a different type of man, your marriage might well not have survived. You have earned your good marriage.
> 
> The reality is, when sex becomes a chore (for either spouse), the marriage is on its way to ending. Sex as a chore will leave a person dreading the other's touch. Many people get to that point without realizing how it has happened; others have fought tooth and nail to prevent that. But it takes two engaged adults to make a succesful and fulfilling marriage. When I read posts on various forums (not this site so much), I'm stunned at the sheer ignorance and immaturity of many, many people. Age is no indicator of growth. So I'm not surprised by the rate of divorce. And I think it is quite telling that relatively few people here strike me that way--TAM posters seem to be the thoughtful type that really want something better (usually). Unfortunately, many are matched with those others who I see on hobby or dating sites--"the clueless," as I sometimes think of them--when I'm feeling generous. ;0 I can think of other names for them when I'm not feeling so generous!


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## Love Song (Jan 16, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> I just don't like the idea that it is ok to "shut him down" unless he is doing (insert long list of clever, romantic loving stuff).


The big problem in your statement is that you are saying that a lady should meet the guys needs without the guy having to meet the lady's needs in the relationship. And that men are entitled to sex but women aren't entitled to having there emotional needs met. How could you even begin to think that that is right?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Love Song said:


> The big problem in your statement is that you are saying that a lady should meet the guys needs without the guy having to meet the lady's needs in the relationship. And that men are entitled to sex but women aren't entitled to having there emotional needs met. How could you even begin to think that that is right?


Because he did not say that (and never has). MEM does not need me to defend him, but his point is that if a man is making the effort and generally meeting her basic needs, she should not cut him off from one of his basic need (sex) just because everything is not perfect.


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## anna garret 01 (Jan 22, 2012)

Acorn said:


> Man: I do not think it is right that you withhold sex. I think in a marriage this would be somewhat of an entitlement now and then.
> 
> Woman: There are no entitlements in marriage.
> 
> ...


:iagree: Sad but true

I agree with the OP. If a spouse wants to have a great marriage and want to STAY married, one has to tend to the other..It's very unpopular amongst some women to tend to their husbands, especially when it comes to sex. If a wife has a hard working man who is faithful, a good dad and treats her good, she HAS to let the little things slide (he doesn't do this, he doesn't do that, I wish he was like this or that) NO man is perfect and that's ok, us wives aren't perfect either!!!!!!!
YES, a wife should selflessly seek to sexually fulfill her husband, after all when he married he promised to forsake all others. That's a big promise and a husband then trusts his wife to fulfill him sexually. We shouldn't let our husbands down.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

anna garret 01 said:


> :iagree: Sad but true
> 
> I agree with the OP. If a spouse wants to have a great marriage and want to STAY married, one has to tend to the other..It's very unpopular amongst some women to tend to their husbands, especially when it comes to sex. If a wife has a hard working man who is faithful, a good dad and treats her good, she HAS to let the little things slide (he doesn't do this, he doesn't do that, I wish he was like this or that) NO man is perfect and that's ok, us wives aren't perfect either!!!!!!!
> YES, a wife should selflessly seek to sexually fulfill her husband, after all when he married he promised to forsake all others. That's a big promise and a husband then trusts his wife to fulfill him sexually. We shouldn't let our husbands down.


You're of one extreme and there is another. Although you're saying exactly what men might like to hear, I think being in the middle is far better for both sexes in the long run.


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

Love Song said:


> The big problem in your statement is that you are saying that a lady should meet the guys needs without the guy having to meet the lady's needs in the relationship. And that men are entitled to sex but women aren't entitled to having there emotional needs met. How could you even begin to think that that is right?


Forget about men and women, a relationship is between people. Everyone has emotional and sexual needs.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Anna,
I hope your partner treats you as well as you treat him. 

I have read some recent posts that REALLY disturbed me. They both said the same thing:
- I am angry and resent my H because I have to work instead of staying home with my young kids.
- Because of that we almost never have sex

And the response to those posts was pretty sympathetic. This was just incredible to me. BTW - no chip on my shoulder - I was VERY lucky career wise (and I worked hard too) and my W was able to stay home for 18 years. 

What amazed me was the TOTAL lack of ownership these two married women took for the situation. Hey - if you feel that strongly about staying home PLAN for it. SAVE your money for a while so you can use the savings to supplement his income. Or take in a few kids for home daycare. Don't create a situation where you HAVE to work and you RESENT him for it and therefore treat him poorly. They knew what these guys made when they said "I DO". This is like the guy who marries an overweight woman and then refuses to be nice to her until she loses weight. WTF? 

End of rant....



anna garret 01 said:


> :iagree: Sad but true
> 
> I agree with the OP. If a spouse wants to have a great marriage and want to STAY married, one has to tend to the other..It's very unpopular amongst some women to tend to their husbands, especially when it comes to sex. If a wife has a hard working man who is faithful, a good dad and treats her good, she HAS to let the little things slide (he doesn't do this, he doesn't do that, I wish he was like this or that) NO man is perfect and that's ok, us wives aren't perfect either!!!!!!!
> YES, a wife should selflessly seek to sexually fulfill her husband, after all when he married he promised to forsake all others. That's a big promise and a husband then trusts his wife to fulfill him sexually. We shouldn't let our husbands down.


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## Love Song (Jan 16, 2012)

ren said:


> Forget about men and women, a relationship is between people. Everyone has emotional and sexual needs.


I agree, this should be about both partners needs being met. I should probably point out that my husband and I don't have this problem. We don't withhold sex from each other neither do we force it on each other. If either of us wants it we know the others hot spots and engage in foreplay. 

I don't want to be insensitive to your problem but it just seems really sad that a man would resort to the entitlement speech to have his needs met. It seems counterproductive to me. You may get it that one time but that won't encourage her to want it in the future. 

Instead maybe you could try showing her how good it could be for her also? Lots of women enjoy sex much more if it's intimate. Bringing out the entitlement card isn't intimate. That's my 2 cents.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LS,
We spent 2 - 3 years "in the trough" - out of 22. The rest were good to great sexually. During that "tough" time our issues weren't me being selfish in bed. They weren't me treating her "badly". The main 2 were:
- I stopped exercising and became truly skinny. She hates skinny - always has. I had bad reflux during that time and it impacted my appetite. 
- I lost my playfully aggressive edge. And became somewhat passive. Nice passive. But still passive. 

Once I got the reflux under control, I ate/lifted my way back to a nice V shape and the behavioral stuff came right along. 

While "in" the trough, I cut WAY back on initiating because I knew she was not feeling much desire. We slipped into a 1 per 5 day routine which was hard on her, and hard on me. 

I give and gave her props for hanging in there with me. And I believe that situation reversed I would have felt the same sense of "obligation/commitment" to the marriage that she did. 





Love Song said:


> I agree, this should be about both partners needs being met. I should probably point out that my husband and I don't have this problem. We don't withhold sex from each other neither do we force it on each other. If either of us wants it we know the others hot spots and engage in foreplay.
> 
> I don't want to be insensitive to your problem but it just seems really sad that a man would resort to the entitlement speech to have his needs met. It seems counterproductive to me. You may get it that one time but that won't encourage her to want it in the future.
> 
> ...


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Mem, you missed my point. A lot of people stay in the trough for a heck of a lot LONGER than 3 years--but the spouse is neither reflective nor willing to grow. Exactly how long does someone live in the trough (and who is to judge?). 

Hm. He's a good dad, works hard, and "treats her well." How can he be treating her well if she is feeling that some of HER basic needs aren't being met? Trust me, most women will not give up sex as the first thing--it goes when resentment mounts, and of course that is dependent upon the individual. If a man won't pay attention to other signs of her unhappiness, it will escalate (this is not a planned agenda; it is just the way things unfold). To call it "withholding sex" when someone is no longer attracted to their spouse is just plain misrepresenting things.

I think the situation you mention (about women wanting to be home with young kids) is more problemmatic than it seems. Honestly, I never thought I'd want to be a stay at home mom, but the urge was overwhelming once I had a child. So I can understand why women would be unhappy--but if they are blaming their spouse b/c he "won't let them," well, I don't get that. On either end. If they are blaming him b/c he doesn't earn more--and he's doing the best he can, shame on them. If he is spending $$$ on hobbies, an expensive car and other "toys," etc., knowing she would prefer to be home, that is a different story again. Etc. Usually these situations are a lot more complex. 

So, Mem, how long would you stay in the trough? Just curious.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sis,
Right there with you on the variables that impact finances and the ability of a mom to stay home. 

Ah - the trough - hmm. Well first we have to agree on one very core fact: I put US in the trough. Not on purpose, but still I did it. I mismanaged (through ignorance) my refux issue and that was the domino that caused all the others to fall. So ummm, since it was a problem of my creation, I don't think I would have ever given up on the marriage even if it lasted open ended. My W clearly loved and respected me. Not as much as she did "before and after". But I don't blame her. I didn't respect me as much when I was in that dark place. 

As for her part in this. Hell, she was coming to bed with a loving heart, doing the best she could to "over ride" the lack of desire she felt. Usually she could get warmed up - and I have always been a slow paced lover - so maybe that helped. I WAS angry for the first year: My self talk was "Hey, I have a chronic medical condition kicking my butt, and she is disappointed about me being skinny". But that didn't solve anything. And besides, for a guy who had always been so blunt that I didn't want her to "let herself go", I was in a tenuous spot to ask her to let me off the hook. But then I started trying to fix things. I read a lot and learned. And gradually changing my diet fixed the reflux, as the eating issues/and reflux driven depression lifted I revereted to the guy she fell in love with. 





sisters359 said:


> Mem, you missed my point. A lot of people stay in the trough for a heck of a lot LONGER than 3 years--but the spouse is neither reflective nor willing to grow. Exactly how long does someone live in the trough (and who is to judge?).
> 
> Hm. He's a good dad, works hard, and "treats her well." How can he be treating her well if she is feeling that some of HER basic needs aren't being met? Trust me, most women will not give up sex as the first thing--it goes when resentment mounts, and of course that is dependent upon the individual. If a man won't pay attention to other signs of her unhappiness, it will escalate (this is not a planned agenda; it is just the way things unfold). To call it "withholding sex" when someone is no longer attracted to their spouse is just plain misrepresenting things.
> 
> ...


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

That makes sense--but it still comes down to being able to reflect and change. When one does but the other doesn't, the trough may come to feel like a chasm, or even an abyss. And that's my thesaurus for the day! :0


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sis,
If I hadn't changed - damn - that would have sucked for both of us. 

But it's also true she wasn't looking for an excuse to "create distance". As I addressed my issues we steadily reverted back to normal. And even when things were bad, the non-sexual affection and day to day kindness were about the same as usual. 




QUOTE=sisters359;573730]That makes sense--but it still comes down to being able to reflect and change. When one does but the other doesn't, the trough may come to feel like a chasm, or even an abyss. And that's my thesaurus for the day! :0[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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