# Wife, Best Friend betrayal



## ssap

I am in the shock phase. I appreciate your perspectives.

Yesterday I found out that my wife of 6 years and best friend of 2 years had crossed the line of friendship into affection.

This is devastating on so many levels.

This story is complicated so I will try for succinct phrasing. I apologize in advance for not knowing the shorthand for all of this.

Paraphrased: My wife and (ex) best friend were both fired yesterday from a company that the (ex) best friend’s brother owns. We are all married respectively and were friends up to this point; vacationed together, hang out weekends etc. 

In short, the brother found compromising IM's between my wife and (ex) best friend incriminating the two of them in concocting this flirtatious alternate reality where they would joke about ending up together, compliments etc. a slew of things that are clearly crossing the boundary.

My (ex) best friend’s wife works there as well and was best friends with my wife as well as a new mother of my (ex) best friend’s child. 

The brother made my (ex) best friend come clean to his wife and my wife came clean with me later that evening when I got home from work. I spoke to the brother later to verify the events.

Their selfish actions have devastated my life, my poor (ex) best friend’s wife, destroyed friendships and at the least harmed the brother who lost his two best employees

Nothing short of a monumental F. up

Background: We are all in our early thirties, all married several years, normal lives, good jobs, no substance abuse or strange behavior or lifestyle choices.

Wife(we) have fertility issues so for the past several years we have been focusing on that and it has been very tough emotionally and fairly tough financially. 

All around, and someone will call me on this later, we have had a very good healthy relationship. We had been friends in school and in our late teens we both came out of unhealthy relationships and found each other. We talked about how to build a strong foundation and agreed to open communication, financial strength, no cussing at each other etc. After a few years of dating and engagement, we married and started our lives together. We worked hard, had a healthy relationship, attended church with some frequency and for all intents and purposes seemed to be laying the groundwork for a solid relationship. 

Here is where the damage multiplier comes in. *This is not her first time doing this to me*. She was involved with a coworker/boss several years ago just 8 months into our marriage. I dealt with it as constructively as possible and really tried to facilitate the healing. Months went by, things got better, and she did a lot to help rebuild our relationship. I could probably be a little guilty of “sweeping” 

Now several years later it is hell’s Groundhog Day but this time my (ex) best friend is involved. 

So now I feel like I’m left to decide our fate and what could she say to me that I could believe?

How can I feel or know she is truly sorry?

when should we seek marital counseling?

Does she have some latent psychological issues related to her childhood abuse that gives her this trouble with boundaries and affection for “authority” figures?

I have no answers. Trying to work through the emotions…. Again.

Thanks for your input.


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## rrrbbbttt

Limited info from your post:

1. Was it a PA? If it wasn't why were they fired?

2. You seem to be making excuses for your wife in the post to find a way to get over it. Is she Remorseful or is she treating it as having fun with your Xbf and it is an overreaction by you and her previous Boss?

3. Also she did this in the past and you R. Did you just forgive or did she make some of the changes necessary for the R?


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## Almostrecovered

props to the owner of the business, a stand up individual


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## ArmyofJuan

Every time you forgive her you make it easier for her to do it again. If you treat this like last time she WILL have another affair in the future. 

She doesn't respect you, do you want to stay married to someone like that when there's millions of other women out there dying to have a husband like you?

Just saying...


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## karval2012

Hi,

I am not a judge or anything, but I may interpret situation like what if this could happen in my life? Hard to imagine ,but, anyways... My point might not be fit for al lsituations, and may not fit to your situation, but I want to say that, no man will do anything, if a woman lets him to.... 
Dont get my word too serious, but I would have a strong man talk with my friend at first. 
Specially if this is not the first time... If there was second time... who said there will be no third?
In this case, I would choose to still have my frined with me, rather than stay completely alone.
Again, repeating, this is only my opinion, and it is based on thing I believe, that no man will have a sex with a woman, if woman does not want it...
And it is just me, who would choose to keep friend. I think, I could understand him. But, I, myself, could never do anything like that to my friends, of course....

Sorry, bro.


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## Onmyway

ssap said:


> Here is where the damage multiplier comes in. *This is not her first time doing this to me*. She was involved with a coworker/boss several years ago just 8 months into our marriage. I dealt with it as constructively as possible and really tried to facilitate the healing. Months went by, things got better, and she did a lot to help rebuild our relationship. I could probably be a little guilty of “sweeping”


Personally, just because of the bolded part, I would suggest that you just leave her. She crossed the line twice? How much easier will the third time be for her.

Just file for divorce and meet someone that won't do this to you, no children and only married for 6 years, no more marriage.

But that may be just me, I know it's hell going through this once, I will never go through it again. 

You gave her a pass before, now take it back and leave, you're better than this.


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## Onmyway

ssap said:


> So now I feel like I’m left to decide our fate


And get that feeling out of your head right now, you didn't do anything to cause this, she is the one that decided the fate of the marriage, namely because she broke it twice. 

Her fault, not yours, she knew how this would affect you, no excuses.


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## Falene

I am so sorry you are here. I used to think that all affairs were equally devastating but yours has a sting to it that is heart breaking.

I would try and make no immediate decisions. I think this is so important when we are suffering through severe emotional trauma. 

I do not say that in hopes you save your marriage or seek to divorce. That is your choice though I must say two affairs is one more than I would be able to swallow. One was more than enough for me.

Beyond that, you need time and you need to love yourself. If I were you, I would start exercising. It helps so much. You are not going to feel like eating but you need to. Anything is better than nothing but do try and eat as healthy as you can. It does make a difference.

Share your feelings. Be honest. Be patient with yourself. Be thankful you do not have children in this equation.

I hope you keep in touch here. You are going to get a lot of good advice. You are going to get some bad. You are going to hear from us betrayed spouses and from those of us that did the betraying. You will see the bitter and the brave.

Know that you are NOT alone. You did NOT do this. This is NOT about you. You did NOT deserve this. You deserved so much more.


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## mrstj4sho88

Almostrecovered said:


> props to the owner of the business, a stand up individual


:iagree:


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## ssap

Thank you all for your responses. I appreciate how quick you work and will try to answer each that I can.

rrrbbbttt : not a PA. fired because the brother doesn't put up with any B.S. he did the right thing IMO. by doing so forced it to be aired out. 

2. I am fairly guilty of making excuses. she is very remorseful, very shaken, just like the first time.

3. she did make positive changes and we really worked on it. I had never forgot but had forgiven and we were stronger so I thought.

OnmyWay - I am inclined to do just as you suggest. I am taking it slow but just can't picture how R would go successfully.

Falene - thank you for your kind and much needed words.


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## ssap

is there a concensus on airing this out with friends and family?

I did not do that last time and may have contributed to the sweeping effect.


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## kenmoore14217

*"This is not her first time doing this to me."* You didn't handle it before, hence the reason why she did it again and again and again ad nauseum. You need to start proceedings and get out of Dodge pronto!!


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## Almostrecovered

ssap said:


> is there a concensus on airing this out with friends and family?
> 
> I did not do that last time and may have contributed to the sweeping effect.


I think exposure helps in presenting consequences for her actions


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## 67flh

yes props to the business owner,now if we can just relay the the op that he should have the brass ones to get rid of a 2x cheater.


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## AlphaHalf

Cheating once is bad enough. (8 months into the marriage)The second time means she doesn't care or have learned her lesson from the first time.
Don't make excuses for her. We all have some sort of childhood issue or abuse. She knows right from wrong, and actions speak louder then words.


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## TBT

ssap said:


> rrrbbbttt : not a PA. fired because the brother doesn't put up with any B.S. he did the right thing IMO. by doing so forced it to be aired out.


How are you so sure it wasn't a PA,as you were shocked only yesterday to find out about the EA?


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## MattMatt

She might need counselling, if it is indeed childhood abuse issues that are causing this.

I really feel for you.


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## JCD

I would NOT listen to the advice about making it up with your 'friend'. Heck, I've been scummy enough to be tempted by my friend's girls.

Here is the thing: He betrayed YOU. He betrayed his WIFE. He betrayed his CHILD. And he betrayed (in a certain way) his BOSS/BROTHER.

So...what does that tell you about his sense of loyalty? It's easy to be a friend when it's sunny. It's a lot harder when it's raining.

***

Here is what I'm not exactly sure of. WHAT exactly did they do wrong? Flirting? An EA? Do you have copies of the exchanges? Whatever it was was enough to be FIRED over? WTF?

I've flirted before. I'd hope my wife wouldn't divorce me over FLIRTING. I know she would if I started another EA with anyone...which, if this is true, seems to be in the situation you are in. Brother could just be a hyper prude.

Not excusing. Just not clear on the offense.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

Random thoughts....

you believe that this is only the 2nd time she has willfully ignored marital boundries? and by shear luck you caught her both times? lol. 

After the first instance you lost the benefit of being niave or blindly trusting. Now, like it or not.. Real trust is not something you will ever have again. The deep scars, and residual dysfunction will take awhile to show... 

Try to let go of your ideals about how things are supposed to be or how you would like them to be... 

Try to step back and imagine a very dear old friend coming to you for advice and guidance... imagine him telling you the story you have outlined here.. What would you tell him? 

Follow that advice. 

and if you hear the word 'but' pop into your mind, realize that's denial. You don't want things to be as they are... but that doesn't change a damn thing. 

Clear as a bell, facts that can not be changed...

Your Wife broke marital boundries and had an affair within 1 year of being married. That is an EPIC red flag. An almost unrepairable mistake, an unmistakable indication of deep problems... and yes, it was an affair. and yes, it was likely much worse and went much deeper than you are aware...

After being caught, she not only ignored the clear risk of losing you forever she also decided to multiply the betrayal x100,000 by CHOSING to have another affair with your BEST FRIEND who is also the husband of her BEST FRIEND. Same applies, yes it was an affair and yes, it was much worse and much deeper than you are aware.
That's not even a red flag. Flags are warnings... This is a right hook to the nuts. "hey stupid, im damaged goods and I will destroy you and anything else that is beautiful in my life". 

I'm really sorry for you, I hope what im saying doesn't sound brash or callous... 

I only hope you will step back and understand with some level of dettachment... These are hardcore, 'level 5' betrayals... She has deep problems your not fixing regardless how many white picket fences you put up around her... She needs help. If you choose to stay and decide to continue trying to raise children with this women (cringe) ... Realize with open eyes the decision your making. She will destroy you, do you need more proof?

FWIW... Best wishes brother, Im really sorry this has happened to you again.


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## ssap

TBT - first, I may have misunderstood what PA meant but in context I now understand it to mean physical attraction or sex. I though you meant PA like a law firm or something that would might have such policy


JCD - I have no intention to make up with my "friend" 

also, I'm not the jealous type nor a prude.

as far as the crime, I don't know the extent of the crime but the brother says they were never alone, I can't think of when they could have been either so if something physical happened we will probably never know. based on the IM's this seemed to be more of an emotional attachement/escape that they got into for some reason. We don't know how long it would have gone on or what level it would have escalated to if not caught. If this was the only time I would be more inclined to work through it since it seems to be on the more mild side depending on your perspective.

MattMatt - I agree if she needs genuine psyc counseling I want to see she gets it whether we R or D. I still Love her.


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## ssap

Pit of my Stomach - I think your thoughts are correct and appreciate the stern kick.

I did lose the fairy tale after the first time and can't be certain that this time is really the second. 

I thank you all for your views. this is helping me more than I thought.


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## dblkman

Almostrecovered said:


> props to the owner of the business, a stand up individual


THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING!! now that is a man with some character!! :iagree:


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## Jonesey

Kudos to you´r BIL.

But in all honesty,who would fire a brother for "little affectation"As
it has been portrayed. In some IM´s. Why was your BIL even looking threw them ,to begin with? I mean your BIL went APE S..t. fired them on the spot..So i think you should prepare your self,that is more to this story then you have been told. Caught red handed comes to mind..Yes i know, i know.Might just be my Bull s...t radar.
As usually.Think about it.in the end,you can get new friend´s but family?like i said in the end,family is family.. Little "affection" sound´s way better then,a full blown affair at family get toghter´s.

You´r BIL might look out for the greater good of his own family..
Im hopping im wrong here..


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## warlock07

PA stands for physical affair. And she most likely had one. 2 years is a long time.There was a poster whose wife had quickies in her lunch breaks. Don't underestimate how creative people in an affair can be.

get her tested for STDs. The truth will slowly come out in the next few days. Denial will be your worst enemy. Seize her email accounts, facebook, phone and change the passwords. She will be busy deleting the digital trail if she hasn't already


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## here2learn

Before you even think of reconciling, I suggest you take the time and effort to get the full truth. You need to know what you must overcome. Right now, all you know is that your wife acted inappropriately enough to get fired. What exactly happened, and what other boundaries have been crossed in the six years of marriage.

Then, you need to see that your wife is truly remorseful. You need to make a list of demands for you to even consider reconciling. You should read many of the other posts here to get an idea of what "heavy lifting" your wife should be expected to do. That is, if you even want to reconcile. As others have pointed out, it might be best to split ways than try to work through this.


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## ssap

Jonesey, sorry for the confusion. he's not my brother in law. he is the brother of my now (ex)best friend if that makes it clear

He told me they were fired mainly because the (ex) best friend's wife works there as well and other ppl. had noticed the flirtation and was unacceptable. its a small office with no private spaces really.


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## ssap

here2learn and others - how do you know when someone has truly come clean of all the details? I don't think I could ever really know.

Also, I'm not comfortable seizing her accounts and tape recording her etc. if I have to do that I really have nothing I feel which is probably no better than where I am now. I guess I feel like severity isn't really rewarded or punished in infidelity. I don't see value in the nuances. I derive the worth of saving the relationship based on what happens after.


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## Jonesey

ssap said:


> Jonesey, sorry for the confusion. he's not my brother in law. he is the brother of my now (ex)best friend if that makes it clear
> 
> He told me they were *fired mainly because the (ex) best friend's wife works there as well* That´s is what i mean,protecting hi family in the long run. *and other ppl.* Of course they played a part of it to..I mean how would that look. if it looked like he had known the whole time.had noticed the flirtation and was unacceptable. its a small office with no private spaces really.


BIL or brother to now ex best friend.Makes no different.

My point here is. Try not to take to much stook in what your
ex best freind brother is saying..You are not part of his *FAMILY*The wife of your ex best friend is..
He has incentive to down play this..I could be wrong here.

I sincerely hopes so..Have you put key logger on your home computer?have checked call log´s? That could be a good start


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## here2learn

ssap said:


> here2learn and others - how do you know when someone has truly come clean of all the details? I don't think I could ever really know.
> 
> Also, I'm not comfortable seizing her accounts and tape recording her etc. if I have to do that I really have nothing I feel which is probably no better than where I am now. I guess I feel like severity isn't really rewarded or punished in infidelity. I don't see value in the nuances. I derive the worth of saving the relationship based on what happens after.


You ask her for a written timeline of events. Tell her to take her time, but you will not accept her trickle-truthing you, so this is her one shot to come clean. Others have suggested having her take a lie detector test. But at a minimum, you need to demand access to e-mail, social media, Skype -- total transparency. And you should try to retrieve her text history. Buy a couple of voice-activated recorders and place in locations where she may try to have a private conversation, such as a car. Listen for anything that may indicate she hasn't been totally forthcoming. If she hasn't, I don't see how you can trust her enough to reconcile.


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## akashNil

ssap said:


> here2learn and others - how do you know when someone has truly come clean of all the details? I don't think I could ever really know.
> 
> Also, I'm not comfortable seizing her accounts and tape recording her etc. if I have to do that I really have nothing I feel which is probably no better than where I am now. I guess I feel like severity isn't really rewarded or punished in infidelity. I don't see value in the nuances. I derive the worth of saving the relationship based on what happens after.


She has been cheating on you in more ways than you could ever imagine. She started it long back, and she is still doing it. You can fill in the blanks. You say you love her - I think you are afraid of loosing her if more things come into light.
If you seize her account (that also fast - like yesterday) - You will come to know what type of person she is.

Saving the relations? Your will be saving her relations with past and future OMs. Its your choice. 

For now, just gather the data. You can bury it or use it afterwards.


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## Jonesey

ssap said:


> here2learn and others - how do you know when someone has truly come clean of all the details? I don't think I could ever really know.
> 
> Also, *I'm not comfortable seizing her accounts and tape recording her etc.* Sorry you wanna fix this? If so.You better get used to it fast.I mean like ASAP*if I have to do that I really have nothing I feel which is probably no better than where I am now.* You will at least now where you stand.And ,what is thereto forgive again.I guess I feel like severity isn't really rewarded or punished in infidelity. I don't see value in the nuances. *I derive the worth of saving the relationship based on what happens after.*I understand where you getting at.But you need to remember,that it need´s to be done.How else to learn how to prevent in the future?


 You triad once,remember? Sorry to be harsh there.


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## ssap

no you are right. It just sucks.


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## Jonesey

ssap said:


> no you are right. It just sucks.


 I know..Been there done that sadly..So i know.

But it need´s to be investigated.


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## TBT

ssap said:


> Also, I'm not comfortable seizing her accounts and tape recording her etc. if I have to do that I really have nothing I feel which is probably no better than where I am now. I guess I feel like severity isn't really rewarded or punished in infidelity. I don't see value in the nuances. I derive the worth of saving the relationship based on what happens after.


Is this the same train of thought that you had after her last affair? If it is,you might want to change it up even a little considering what has recurred.Wish you the best whatever you decide.


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## JCD

I am a firm believer in not asking a question that you don't want answers too.

But...you already have answers. You just don't have WHOLE answers.

If you can't handle the truth, don't dig. But don't for a second pretend that you aren't trying to mentally cover thing up for her. At least be that honest with yourself.


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## TDSC60

Some woman, for whatever reason, are simply addicted to the attention of new men. They crave the validation that they get from flirting with men and having the men flirt. They are, of course, remorseful and sorry - when they are caught. But like an alcoholic or drug addict, they always move on to the next "high".

Sooner or latter the flirting will not be enough and she will have a physical affair with someone. 

Women like her accept that sex is the price they pay for the attention they crave.


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## hookares

The affair didn't get "physical" based on what your wife and "friend" tell you? How about the first affair? If it "may" have been physical, it's likely that you are being sold a bill of goods.
With no children to consider Your prime concern should be for your best interests. She's already given credence to the saying "cheat once, cheat again".


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## Falene

Almostrecovered said:


> I think exposure helps in presenting consequences for her actions


I could not agree with this more.


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## JCD

hookares said:


> The affair didn't get "physical" based on what your wife and "friend" tell you? How about the first affair? If it "may" have been physical, it's likely that you are being sold a bill of goods.
> With no children to consider Your prime concern should be for your best interests. She's already given credence to the saying "cheat once, cheat again".


Yeah. I mean, who checks IMs etc? It would have to be pretty heinous stuff to even twig the perviest IT guy.

Most likley, someone walked in on them while they were in a clench or touching each other inappropriately. THAT Boss Brother (Not YOUR brother) couldn't cover up.

If she doesn't know her inner demons, she'll keep visiting them. So IF you want to R, you need to wait quite a while.

Happily Divorce is much quicker and thorough.


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## ssap

The IM's were left on his old laptop the boss was refurbing (so goes the story)

*Breaking News!* I checked the cell records and she had a 40 minute conversation with him today. WOW. twist that knife.

So I called and asked if she had talked to anyone today. she said no. I said the phone company says otherwise. then she says she didn't know why she has these feelings, doesn't understand how it happened, doesn't want to hurt me, etc etc. but she still admits to having them. I guess that's pretty clear cut huh? <sarcasm> 

If and only if she was fully remorseful and was working on positive change etc. today was I going to even consider R. with this new info, I don't think she has left me with any choice really. 


Thanks all for your coaching and help. I welcome your input.


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## Almostrecovered

Let Omw know


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## ssap

what's Omw?


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## StagesOfGrief

ssap said:


> what's Omw?


Other man's wife


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## Jonesey

ssap said:


> The IM's were left on his old laptop the boss was *refurbing* Hardly refurbishing is almost, always done if you want to sell ,the unit...In this case laptop i assume.Employee´s are informed and getting ample time to clean out, Both company and personal files to a back up server..Hardly likely that he figured it this way.(so goes the story)
> 
> *Breaking News!** I checked the cell records and she had a 40 minute conversation with him today. *WOW. twist that knife.
> This is why i did not buy the intial story.
> So I called and asked if she had talked to anyone today. she said no. I said the phone company says otherwise. then she says she didn't know why she has these feelings, doesn't understand how it happened, doesn't want to hurt me, etc etc. but she still admits to having them. I guess that's pretty clear cut huh? <sarcasm>
> 
> If and only if she was fully remorseful and was working on positive change etc. today was I going to even consider R. with this new info, I don't think she has left me with any choice really.
> 
> 
> Thanks all for your coaching and help. I welcome your input.


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## OldWolf57

ssap said:


> The IM's were left on his old laptop the boss was refurbing (so goes the story)
> 
> *Breaking News!* I checked the cell records and she had a 40 minute conversation with him today. WOW. twist that knife.
> 
> So I called and asked if she had talked to anyone today. she said no. I said the phone company says otherwise. I don't think she has left me with any choice really.
> 
> 
> Thanks all for your coaching and help. I welcome your input.


Seems you are already trying to find a way to get pass her lie today, " I don't think she left me any choice ".
Are you the reason no kids, and feeling guilty from it ??

I know you love her, but how much does it take to open your eyes ?? 8 months ?? Thats still honeymoon phase dude !!


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## Jonesey

*Originally Posted by ssap 
The IM's were left on his old laptop the boss was refurbing (so goes the story)*

Left on his boss,laptop.Seriously man? i know you love her.
You really need to dig and dig deep.Have you key logged computer at home yet?Checked Facebook,and so on??

So what is your plan now when you relived one of your sources
of the 40min call,whats your plan?


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## StagesOfGrief

Jonesey said:


> *Originally Posted by ssap
> The IM's were left on his old laptop the boss was refurbing (so goes the story)*
> 
> Left on his boss,laptop.Seriously man? i know you love her.
> You really need to dig and dig deep.Have you key logged computer at home yet?Checked Facebook,and so on??
> 
> So what is your plan now when you relived one of your sources
> of the 40min call,whats your plan?


If you're looking for answers its the keylogger. I got my answers from the keylogger in less than 48 hours that finally gave me the evidence i needed to know what I thought was only an EA was a PA.


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## SadSamIAm

Whether you end up reconciling or not, you need to be decisive. You need to be harsh. You need to move out of your home or have her move out. You need to stay separated for at least a month.

This will show you what she is made of. Will she say 'oh well' and move on to some else, or will she earn your forgiveness. Will she show true remorse. Will she fight for your marriage.

If you don't act, and let this be explained away without showing her consequences, it will only happen again.


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## StagesOfGrief

SadSamIAm said:


> Whether you end up reconciling or not, you need to be decisive. You need to be harsh. You need to move out of your home or have her move out. You need to stay separated for at least a month.
> 
> This will show you what she is made of. Will she say 'oh well' and move on to some else, or will she earn your forgiveness. Will she show true remorse. Will she fight for your marriage.
> 
> If you don't act, and let this be explained away without showing her consequences, it will only happen again.


And even if she shows true remorse, it puts you in the position to get your emotions settled to realize if R or D is really what you want.


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## Jonesey

StagesOfGrief said:


> If you're looking for answers its the keylogger. I got my answers from the keylogger in less than 48 hours that finally gave me the evidence i needed to know what I thought was only an EA was a PA.


Key logger i a great idea.But sadly OP did not do it the first time
i advised him to do it quick. He blowed when he gave out that he has knowledge to her phone record´s..

OP have you talked to you ex best friend´s wife yet?
Could be a good idea.Just to compare notes.40min calls

Or at least let her know that


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## Why Not Be Happy?

her phone call was probably how to cover their tracks and figure out how to continue their relationship.


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## Sara8

ssap said:


> I am in the shock phase. I appreciate your perspectives.
> 
> Yesterday I found out that my wife of 6 years and best friend of 2 years had crossed the line of friendship into affection.
> 
> This is devastating on so many levels.
> 
> This story is complicated so I will try for succinct phrasing. I apologize in advance for not knowing the shorthand for all of this.
> 
> Paraphrased: My wife and (ex) best friend were both fired yesterday from a company that the (ex) best friend’s brother owns. We are all married respectively and were friends up to this point; vacationed together, hang out weekends etc.
> 
> In short, the brother found compromising IM's between my wife and (ex) best friend incriminating the two of them in concocting this flirtatious alternate reality where they would joke about ending up together, compliments etc. a slew of things that are clearly crossing the boundary.
> 
> My (ex) best friend’s wife works there as well and was best friends with my wife as well as a new mother of my (ex) best friend’s child.
> 
> The brother made my (ex) best friend come clean to his wife and my wife came clean with me later that evening when I got home from work. I spoke to the brother later to verify the events.
> 
> Their selfish actions have devastated my life, my poor (ex) best friend’s wife, destroyed friendships and at the least harmed the brother who lost his two best employees
> 
> Nothing short of a monumental F. up
> 
> Background: We are all in our early thirties, all married several years, normal lives, good jobs, no substance abuse or strange behavior or lifestyle choices.
> 
> Wife(we) have fertility issues so for the past several years we have been focusing on that and it has been very tough emotionally and fairly tough financially.
> 
> All around, and someone will call me on this later, we have had a very good healthy relationship. We had been friends in school and in our late teens we both came out of unhealthy relationships and found each other. We talked about how to build a strong foundation and agreed to open communication, financial strength, no cussing at each other etc. After a few years of dating and engagement, we married and started our lives together. We worked hard, had a healthy relationship, attended church with some frequency and for all intents and purposes seemed to be laying the groundwork for a solid relationship.
> 
> Here is where the damage multiplier comes in. *This is not her first time doing this to me*. She was involved with a coworker/boss several years ago just 8 months into our marriage. I dealt with it as constructively as possible and really tried to facilitate the healing. Months went by, things got better, and she did a lot to help rebuild our relationship. I could probably be a little guilty of “sweeping”
> 
> Now several years later it is hell’s Groundhog Day but this time my (ex) best friend is involved.
> 
> So now I feel like I’m left to decide our fate and what could she say to me that I could believe?
> 
> How can I feel or know she is truly sorry?
> 
> when should we seek marital counseling?
> 
> Does she have some latent psychological issues related to her childhood abuse that gives her this trouble with boundaries and affection for “authority” figures?
> 
> I have no answers. Trying to work through the emotions…. Again.
> 
> Thanks for your input.


The fact that she only confessed because her affair partner was outed is not a good sign.

It indicates she will likely remain in the affair fog for a long time. 

Someone here called it "affair interruptus".

When that happens be prepared to be blamed and to have your marital history rewritten and to here really nasty mean, untrue, things come out of her mouth. 

Sorry you are here.


----------



## StagesOfGrief

Why Not Be Happy? said:


> her phone call was probably how to cover their tracks and figure out how to continue their relationship.


its going underground.


----------



## Falene

Almostrecovered said:


> Let Omw know


I hope you will do this Ssap and tell the OMW what your wife said too.

The OMW deserves to know so she isn't fooled like you were.


----------



## Sara8

ssap said:


> is there a concensus on airing this out with friends and family?
> 
> I did not do that last time and may have contributed to the sweeping effect.


Yes. Expose her behavior to her family. 

I can understand not doing this the first time, but I think she needs to be shamed in front of family and friends. 

The last time there were no shameful consequences.


----------



## happyman64

ssap said:


> The IM's were left on his old laptop the boss was refurbing (so goes the story)
> 
> *Breaking News!* I checked the cell records and she had a 40 minute conversation with him today. WOW. twist that knife.
> 
> So I called and asked if she had talked to anyone today. she said no. I said the phone company says otherwise. then she says she didn't know why she has these feelings, doesn't understand how it happened, doesn't want to hurt me, etc etc. but she still admits to having them. I guess that's pretty clear cut huh? <sarcasm>
> 
> If and only if she was fully remorseful and was working on positive change etc. today was I going to even consider R. with this new info, I don't think she has left me with any choice really.
> 
> 
> Thanks all for your coaching and help. I welcome your input.


SSAP

You have no choice is right and you know what, call the exbff's wife and let her know they are still talking.

I hope your wife likes sleeping at her mothers or in the car.......

Get tough buddy boy and start dishing out some consequences no matter if you R or D there needs to be consequences now!!

HM64


----------



## aug

Props to the brother of the OM. Being able to show his own kin that he doesnt stand for that type of behavior takes fortitude.

Your wife is a repeat offender. And at such a young marriage too. It should be obvious now that you'll have decades of issues with your marriage from now on.

Frankly, the cliche "you cant turn a ho into a housewife" may have some merit here. And, why would you want to?


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

You already know everything you need to know. All a keylogger is going to do is shove knives deeper into your heart. If you need that to help you detach and motivate you to do what you already know in your heart has to be done... So be it. Start digging. 

Give yourself a little time, this is a process. Soon enough you'll come to clarity on this. Your marriage is over my friend. This kind of damage is terminal. You deserve so much better than this. This relationship has to be put down. 

It's going to get really messy and your mind is going to be all over the place. Start protecting yourself, withdraw yourself and your finances now. You'll feel better when you start taking action to look out for yourself. I've been there.


----------



## ssap

Thanks all. you work so fast I can barely keep up with responses. I am sad that you are all so knowledgeable about this subject. I reflect on it.

The OMW knows, the brother we are all so fond of forced that ouster, she is devastated no doubt

my wife is confessing to her mother now.

she was totally different when I got home. said she did want R and can't lose me etc. etc. crying etc. said she was very sorry etc. etc.

I cried too but can help to have some resolve about the situation to the effect that most agree on at this point.

I do want to see her get some counseling but can't see being there past that. 

I am working on sorting out finances and trying to not have this bankrupt me and cause even more fallout.


----------



## Shaggy

Have her go take a polygraph. I bet you'll find they have at least been kissing, if not more.


----------



## ssap

shaggy - how would that change my course? which is worse a kiss or strong emotional attachment.

a thoughtless one night stand or a long standing friendship that confuses the lines between friends and love?

I think its different for everyone.


----------



## lovelygirl

Why would a kiss/ONS/a strong EA make a difference for you at this point?

She cheated 8 months within the marriage.
Now she's doing it again.

Do you really need proof of ONS/kisses before you leave her?
If you don't find further proof, what makes you think she won't do it again (more) in the future?

The signs are already there. 
She's good at deviating from this marriage.


----------



## Jonesey

ssap said:


> shaggy - how would that change my course? which is worse a kiss or strong emotional attachment.
> 
> a thoughtless one night stand or a long standing friendship that confuses the lines between friends and love?
> 
> I think its different for everyone.


Ok ,fair enough.Now how can we help you?


----------



## Fvstringpicker

ssap said:


> This is not her first time doing this to me. She was involved with a coworker/boss several years ago just 8 months into our marriage.* I dealt with it as constructively as possible * and really tried to facilitate the healing. Months went by, things got better, and she did a lot to help rebuild .


On the contrary, if you'd delt with it constructively, you'd been rid of her 9 months into your marriage and by now been settled in with a loyal, trustworthy woman. You should now be grateful you have an opportunity to correct your error. Seize the power and cancel her ticket.


----------



## sandc

The first thing to remember is that lying is the cheater's native language. She said it was an EA, it was kissing, when she finally admits to you that they may have kissed once or twice, you'll know they had full-on sex, etc. I know this doesn't matter to you at this point, it's just to show you that you can't *trust* anything she says, and you don't have the full truth. It will trickle out over the coming months. This should do nothing more than strengthen your resolve. 

At this point your wife appears to be a serial cheater and hence, not marriage material. Recovery is possible but you will have to live the rest of your life checking up on her. The first step would be a polygraph test to see if she has even told you the truth about either of these affairs. If you're not interested in R, then I would suggest you not wait around. File for D, and recommend some good counselors she could talk to. There is no need for you to fix her for her next man, that's her job. You go fix yourself and find a woman whom you can trust and build a life with.


----------



## jnj express

Hey ssap---I will tell you one thing---if for some reason, you decide to R----there is only one way to do that---HARSH----you MUST play HARDBALL

She has to face REALITY---she can have all the counseling in the world---but if she percieves you as weak, and circumstances arise, and she can justify taking on another man---SHE WILL CHEAT AGAIN----you already know that the weakness is there

I understand you do not want to spend the rest of your life as a parole officer, but if you R, that is gonna have to happen

With this so called wife of yours, you need EXTREMELY HARSH BOUNDARIES, a post--nup, AND SHE NEEDS TO FACE REALITY, AS IN NO MORE ELECTRONICS OF ANY KIND, NO MORE CC'S, AND SHE will GET HERSELF A JOB, AND PAY HALF OF EACH AND EVERY BILL THAT COMES IN FOR ANYTHING, AND EVERYTHING

You toss her out of the marital bedroom, you are not to be a nice--guy to her, and there is no lovey--dovey for now

These things must occur, for her understand you are deadly serious------you tell her if there is one more contact tween her and him, of any SORT, for any REASON---the mge. is over on the spot, and you will seek an atty., immediately

These are things you must do, to get her to understand, what is at stake, and that she is to be ACCOUNTABLE----this is all, over and above counseling---this is what YOU REQUIRE of her to stay in the mge-----she can never again percieve you as weak----

Right now she thinks, what are you gonna do to her---so she takes you on, as in her 40 minute conversation----she can stop the contact---if SHE WANTS TO----but you must make sure she knows, there are no more chances of any kind!!!!!!


----------



## bff

Hey SSAP,

I just want to tell you that you're not alone in this situation. My wife and one of my best friends were having a physical and emotional affair for six and a half years before I discovered it, walked away and filed for divorce. 

I'm no expert on this topic, but as someone in a similar situation, I want to echo a previous poster's advice - forget about how things "should" be or how you want them to be. You need to look at the facts here and make a very unemotional practical decision about HOW YOU WANT TO LIVE THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Be honest with yourself about how things are likely to go if your R. You're only in your early 30's? That's a long time to endure more of the same. No one is perfect, but it takes a certain kind of person to engage in extra-martial play, and it sounds like your wife "has the gene". Imagine what would be happening right now if you HAD been successful having a child with this woman? If you think that would change her capability for going outside the marriage, I think that might be naive. 

I really do wish you the best. While I had clear evidence and then an admission of my wife having sex with the other man, once I made the decision to divorce and move on, I've been a new man. I started making better decisions, taking better care of myself and looking at what I want/expect/demand out of any future relationship in a whole new way.

My positive thoughts are with you, Brother. Good luck in whatever path you choose.

BFF


----------



## Malaise

ssap said:


> The IM's were left on his old laptop the boss was refurbing (so goes the story)
> 
> *Breaking News!* I* checked the cell records and she had a 40 minute conversation with him today. WOW. twist that knife.
> 
> So I called and asked if she had talked to anyone today. she said no. I said the phone company says otherwise. then she says she didn't know why she has these feelings, doesn't understand how it happened, doesn't want to hurt me, etc etc. but she still admits to having them. I guess that's pretty clear cut huh?* <sarcasm>
> 
> If and only if she was fully remorseful and was working on positive change etc. today was I going to even consider R. with this new info, I don't think she has left me with any choice really.
> 
> 
> Thanks all for your coaching and help. I welcome your input.


To state the obvious : this is why people say to investigate. If you didn't check what would you have known ?

Its not snooping, it's self defense.


----------



## walkonmars

aug said:


> *Props to the brother of the OM. * Being able to show his own kin that he doesnt stand for that type of behavior takes fortitude.


I was going to recommend sending a TY card to the boss. BUT I think Jonesy may be on to something. It's beginning to look a bit suspicious. But that's only a problem if you genuinely want to get at the truth. 

At the moment you seem to have all the 'truth' you can handle. Still if you have ANY thought of R once again you'd better get the entire truth out there. Even if you're not considering it, it might be a good move as an immunization against minimizing and blaming you for any part of this. 

Rest, exercise, eat healthy - don't dwell on this 24/7.


----------



## sandc

bff said:


> Hey SSAP,
> 
> I just want to tell you that you're not alone in this situation. My wife and one of my best friends were having a physical and emotional affair for six and a half years before I discovered it, walked away and filed for divorce.
> 
> I'm no expert on this topic, but as someone in a similar situation, I want to echo a previous poster's advice - forget about how things "should" be or how you want them to be. You need to look at the facts here and make a very unemotional practical decision about HOW YOU WANT TO LIVE THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Be honest with yourself about how things are likely to go if your R. You're only in your early 30's? That's a long time to endure more of the same. No one is perfect, but it takes a certain kind of person to engage in extra-martial play, and it sounds like your wife "has the gene". Imagine what would be happening right now if you HAD been successful having a child with this woman? If you think that would change her capability for going outside the marriage, I think that might be naive.
> 
> I really do wish you the best. While I had clear evidence and then an admission of my wife having sex with the other man, once I made the decision to divorce and move on, I've been a new man. I started making better decisions, taking better care of myself and looking at what I want/expect/demand out of any future relationship in a whole new way.
> 
> My positive thoughts are with you, Brother. Good luck in whatever path you choose.
> 
> BFF


OP,
Take some time and go read BFF's thread. You have many similarities. Go read and see how it is supposed to be done.


----------



## sandc

walkonmars said:


> At the moment you seem to have all the 'truth' you can handle. Still if you have ANY thought of R once again you'd better get the entire truth out there. Even if you're not considering it, it might be a good move as an immunization against minimizing and blaming you for any part of this.
> 
> Rest, exercise, eat healthy - don't dwell on this 24/7.


If he has decided to end it then there really is not need to dig for more truth. If you have enough info for D, then no reason to dig any deeper. Just file and be done with it. 

But if you want to R, then you really have to start digging. Phone records, data records, text message records, buy a voice activated recorder and plant it in her car, etc.


----------



## TDSC60

The phone call and the length of it suggests they talked in depth about something. Most likely it was about their feelings for each other and how they would continue in contact and face to face meetings without you or OMs wife knowing.

She lied to your face again. How many times are you going to take that? Anything she admits is a partial truth and minimized for your benefit. 

"Doesn't want to hurt you" = Keep you around to pay the bills and provide a place for her to live until they can make their plans.

"Having feelings for OM" = He is her "soulmate" and so much better than you. He "gets" her while you do not. He is easy to talk to while you never listen to her. Shall I go on?

Your wife is a serial cheater and the two times that you know about is most likely the tip of the iceberg.

Why would you want to stick around while she gets help for her problem. Are you going to "fix" her for the next man in her life? That is just nuts.

Get out now. Separate finances. Change life insurance. If you have a will - change it. Cut up all credit cards. Stop paying for anything that she has especially the phone. Take half of the money out of all joint account and open a new account for you only.


----------



## ssap

*lovely girl* - I agree and think my statement echoes that.

*jonesey* - I'm sorry if that was unproductive. I am here for guidance.

*stringpicker* - touche sir. well put.

*bff* - thank you for sharing. I very much value your input and experience

*sandc* - i agree thanks for your input

*TDSC60* - I don't pretend I can fix anyone. out of love and sympathy, however misplaced, I want to see her better if possible.
I may on the path to D. but know that real help may be need for some people some time.


----------



## OldWolf57

What Shaggy may be saying is to do a poly if you still want R as she goes thru IC. 
That way you will have answers to ?? like whether she bonked any guys while you 2 have been together.

Now plz don't feel bad if you do want R, there are guys here who wives bonked multi guys and they are still together.

By the same token, don't feel bad for D/ing.
You gave her another chance. and she blew it. 
Just KNOW it will take a long while to build back that trust.


----------



## Jonesey

ssap said:


> *lovely girl* - I agree and think my statement echoes that.
> 
> *jonesey* -* I'm sorry if that was unproductive. I am here for guidance.* Not my intention.But have you taken the first steps i laid out for you yet?
> One thing to remember in reconciliation is.See it for what is.
> In your case,please try not to make some excuses for her..It wont work.Again sorry if you took it the way you did.*I just wish you would stand up for your self.*
> 
> *stringpicker* - touche sir. well put.
> 
> *bff* - thank you for sharing. I very much value your input and experience
> 
> *sandc* - i agree thanks for your input
> 
> *TDSC60* - I don't pretend I can fix anyone. out of love and sympathy, however misplaced, I want to see her better if possible.
> I may on the path to D. but know that real help may be need for some people some time.


----------



## Will_Kane

ssap said:


> The IM's were left on his old laptop the boss was refurbing (so goes the story)
> 
> I checked the cell records and she had a 40 minute conversation with him today. WOW. twist that knife.
> 
> So I called and asked if she had talked to anyone today. she said no. I said the phone company says otherwise. then she says she didn't know why she has these feelings, doesn't understand how it happened, doesn't want to hurt me, etc etc. but she still admits to having them.
> 
> If and only if she was fully remorseful and was working on positive change etc. today was I going to even consider R.
> 
> I am sad that you are all so knowledgeable about this subject. I reflect on it.
> 
> The OMW knows, the brother we are all so fond of forced that ouster, she is devastated no doubt.
> 
> my wife is confessing to her mother now.
> 
> she was totally different when I got home. said she did want R and can't lose me etc. etc. crying etc. said she was very sorry etc. etc. I cried too but can help to have some resolve about the situation to the effect that most agree on at this point.


When posters are asking you if the other man's wife knows, they are asking if she knows about the 40-minute conversation today, which came after the initial exposure. They want you to tell the other man's wife about it so she can help you end the affair. Have two sets of eyes on these cheaters.

How long did her affair with the other man last? Did they have sex? How long did her first affair, eight months into your marriage, last? Did she have sex with him? Please tell me that if you are considering reconciliation, you respect yourself enough to expect your wife to be truthful with you. Do you think your marriage will work if it is built on the lies of her affairs?

A few hours ago she still had feelings for the other man. Now they are magically gone and she wants to reconcile? Sounds fishy. Like other man told her that he wasn't going to leave his wife. Maybe that they have to cool it for a little while, then they can hook up again in a few weeks. So she either can't see him for a while or he dumped her, she has lost her job, and she really, really wants to reconcile with you. She is hoping to get another job and that other man will leave his wife, then her desire for reconciliation will not be so strong.

If other man told your wife that he was divorcing his wife to be with yours, what would your wife do? Do you think that's a fair question to ask your wife?


----------



## Acabado

Call the OM's BW and tell her they are taking it underground. Thte never stopped.


----------



## Acabado

Man you need to blow this really hard. If you don't kill this just now you won't even have the chance to think about what you want. The affir must stop now. So nuclear exposure. Everybody knows. Stay in tyouch with BWw, you know four eyes better than two.
Lawyer up, find your rights, find out what to expect.
Kick her out of the bedroom.
Demand her to send a NC letter (Ask her for templates), demand complete transparence with comunication devices and acountability of whereabouts. On her back you gt yourself on PI mode (keyloggers, checking the back account, checking the phone bill, spyware on the cell, VAR, GPS, whatever you need to be sure you are not made a fool, she's going to get in touch with him by email, by a secret phone...).
Demand a full disclosure. Demand her to back up it with a polygraph. If I were you I'd try to get those IMs from work. Contact MOM's brother, ask them.

Demand her to deal with her demons at IC, demand her to find out why the hell she's a serial cheater with no boundaires.
Demand her to get help in how to fix this, by reading about indifelity, by reading about mending marriages.

Taylor the 180, back off, stay at arms lenght.


----------



## JCD

ssap said:


> The OMW knows, the brother we are all so fond of forced that ouster, she is devastated no doubt


The wife knows *of the original affair.* She does NOT know that they are still trying to keep in contact.

You need to tell her that her scumwad of a husband is still scummy and not to believe his lies.


----------



## JCD

Fvstringpicker said:


> On the contrary, if you'd delt with it constructively, you'd been rid of her 9 months into your marriage and by now been settled in with a loyal, trustworthy woman. You should now be grateful you have an opportunity to correct your error. Seize the power and cancel her ticket.


While I agree he didn't handle it constructively, that does not mean he should have just knee jerk tossed her away. I believe (I HAVE to believe) that people can change. That forgiveness is an option. I'm not perfect. Neither is his wife, the OP or you.

At some point, if it hasn't happened already, you will commit a heinous act and want grace. Will you 'deserve it'? No. But let's make WISE forgiveness a part of our outlook.

(BTW, ssap? You did NOT do wise forgiveness orginally)


----------



## Taurus

Sorry about the "sucker punch" you just received from your wife. It's indefensible. You've gotten the best advice from the best on what is really happening and what you should do. Too bad you didn't get ahold of her phone and look at mesages and photos before she most likely cleaned it. That 40 minute phone call was them getting their story straight.


----------



## JCD

A few reflections:

-First off, I wouldn't get too worked up about the best friend thing. She thought she was safe with this guy and things sort of fell down the rabbit hole...probably for both of them.

That said, friends don't send crotch shots to friends wives. There are all kinds of lines there that got crossed enough to be enraged and yes, you should end the friendship. The biggest problem there was your wife spent 8 hours a day with this guy AMD whatever other time you guys spent as couples. Take the 8 hours of sleep away, her 8 hours at work and did you spend that much time a day with your wife? I think not.

Just something to watch for.

-You don't know what they discussed in the phone call. Maybe it was a good bye call, maybe it was commisserating with each other (recall that they were BFFs at this point) and maybe they were discussing your next business trip and which Motel 6 they were going to meet behind.

-The sudden turn around in her behavior? If you lift your wife's skirt, you will not doubt see the teeth marks of your MIL in her @$$ (Metaphorically speaking) The fact that SHE is telling her mother has to be a mark in her favor....MAYBE! She could be spinning the truth and minimizing things too. So your next step is to TALK to the MIL about what she was told and 'fill in the gaps' including the first affair.

You may be shocked at what she was told or you might be pleasantly surprised.

Good Luck


----------



## ssap

*Will kane* I don't know if the OM's wife knows about the 40 min conversation today. I guess I'll tell her. 

*Acabado* - your advise is good. thanks. what is "taylor the 180"?

*JCD* - I was in the room when she had the convo with MIL. 

*JCD* - I think you are spot on.

I told her that last time I didn't do the right things and wasn't going to sweep it this time. 

*More breaking info* the OM, my ex best friend called to apologize and say he was a piece of sht. says I never did anything to deserve it and I treated him like a brother (thanks for the reminder)

I said OK.

another interesting note, the Father of the OM was informed somehow and texted my wife to leave their family alone and he knew she wasn't right somehow and he liked an respected me and we should get counseling. that was before the conversation I had with my wife today about her feelings which she now states as her turning point.... funny I don't remember it like that. and she sent OM a text not exactly saying "I am done because I love my husband" more of "this could never be now so we are done".

not really comforting and making me decision that much more resolute. 

WOW.

btw. thank you all for your commitment to this forum and other peoples problems. it is needed and appreciated.


----------



## Acabado

Find out when this started. Check the phone bill for the past months.
Why is important to know ehether the kisses or had sex? Becuase she has to face the music, she has to come clean, she can't afford to have secrets you are not aware of, secrets between them. Secrets have power, kills intimathy. She has to destroy those compartiments she loves to have in her head.
It will be healing for her.


----------



## JCD

I hope you told him not to contact you anymore.


----------



## Acabado

This is the 180:
The 180 degree rules
What I said is you don't necessarily have to follow the rules to a T. Some of them can make "in house" situations more volatile. IT's a toll to detach, to take a few steps back from the source of pain, to have space to think more clearly. It's a tool to self improvement.

The thing is you need to think hard what are your boundaires and dealbreakers, to need to lay the lay just for not filing inmediatelty. You tell her, you make your demands from a position of strenght then you watch for a while if she's consistently following them and behaving in a way you can consider any kind of reconciliation.
Marriage is on hold until further advice.


----------



## Acabado

Click here too
Welcome TAM CWI newbies- please read this


----------



## Acabado

Another thing is if ILs are not aware you have to inform them WW is a serial cheater, she already did the same very early into the marriage (sha can't say she was sick of your shortcomings as that happened in the honeymoon phase). Tell them it's a patern. This time jeopardized his job, betrayed her employer, her best friend and you, f0cked up a very good friendship and is likely destroying two marriages.


----------



## Shaggy

My suggestion of the polygraph is to help find out how deep this has gone, because you need to know the full extent if you are going to even attempt to R. Otherwise you won't be working on the real issues with the real facts.


----------



## The Middleman

ssap said:


> "this could never be now so we are done".


Seriuosly!!!??? This alone is reason enough to throw her sorry ass out! She is still in a fog and not serious about making things right. You may want to consider separation. You should ask her for her phone and tell her you'll give it back to her when she behaves like an adult.


----------



## warlock07

The 40 min phone call is worrying. They could have planned so many things.(Matching up affair stories, planning to take the affair underground while lying low for a while, agreeing on the confession etc.) And next time she won't use the home phone.


----------



## JCD

Dirty Trick from the mind of JCD number 8

"Dear Mr. Scumlord's Father,

Thank you for the kind words and suggestions. I absolutely agree that my wife she never contact your family and appreciate your help in this matter.

That being said, it takes two to tango and I hope your advice regarding counseling and apply it to your son the cad. While I have absolutely not feeling for a man who set out to seduce my wife, I do have some tatters of feeling his wife and I hope he gets some counseling to help retilt his moral center back onto plumb.

Because I have some feelings for her, I would ask that you no longer contact my current wife because it causes her pain. Whether this marriage survives or not, I'd just as soon spare her that so she can find her own center, whomever she is with."

Then you ask her to edit it for you.


----------



## Almostrecovered

uhhh no

you just don't contact the family again


OM's father was absolutely correct in laying into OP's wife. she needed to hear the consequence of her actions. Plus the way brother reacted I am willing to bet Dad was the one who raised him that way and also gave his own son a huge tongue lashing and piece of his mind about it.


----------



## JCD

This is more about communicating to the wife, quite frankly at how much the ice is creaking...


----------



## Chaparral

Books you need to read in order.

Married Man Sex Life Primer

After the Affair

His Needs Her Needs

Love Busters 

Hold onto Your N.U.T.S.

No More Mr Nice Guy


----------



## ssap

*JCD* - I see your point but I'm leaning towards *AlmostRecovered* tack. I don't disagree with what the Father did.

*chapparal* - thank you for that list. I'm not sure I could sit long enough to read the cover but I will pick a few up.

*More News* the OM's wife texted me last night to ask how everything was going. said she need some stuff back. I said I did too. And I took the opportunity to tell her that they had the 40 min. conversation. she said he swore to her that they hadn't. so they are both still lying through this. I did not give her advice. just wished her well in whatever happens. she gave me some more details too.

The OM's wife told me that my wife had divulged all sorts of "marital problems" (ones that didn't exist or were blown way up) and had told the OM that she was "done" and would leave any time. she asked the OM if he loved her and he said he could etc. etc. 

really just keeps getting better and better. The OM's wife said they were going to work on it and I detected major sweeping and damage control already in the works so I feel very bad for her.

my brother is a christian marriage counselor and while he says he might not be able to be objective he and his wife would help me through this. I know religion isn't for some but it is a component of my life that I can't ignore through these proceedings. with that being said, at this point, I'm not sure if it can reach me at this point. just too much bad stuff!!


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## Almostrecovered

I understand your faith however most religious counseling that I have heard of on the board is a whole lot of rug sweeping, they rush to forgiveness too fast and many will even allow WS to blameshift


----------



## ssap

almostrecovered - now that I am better armed with the knowledge of this forum. any rug sweeping or blame shifting will be called out. I just won't take it and I will be vigilant.

I am having lunch with him today to discuss more detail etc. and will take his temperature on that.

with that being said, a rush to forgiveness is a tenet of my faith whether I like it or not. Forgiveness can occur though without be sticking around.


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## bandit.45

Forgiveness is only warranted when she is truly remorseful, repentant and contrite. Right now she's only feeling guilty. She is not ready for forgiveness yet. She needs you to stand up and lay down the law....take her to the brink of the precipice. Else she'll pull this crap again down the road.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Onmyway

ssap said:


> with that being said, a rush to forgiveness is a tenet of my faith whether I like it or not. Forgiveness can occur though without be sticking around.


Exactly, forgive her while you divorce her.

Forgivness is more for you than her anyways.


----------



## 67flh

ssap, buddy i can feel for you,caught my ex in a relationship with a family member.that being said,she's right in front of you made the phone call to him and didn't give the correct answer...no i love him,not you...all you are is her plan b,especially now that she has NO job. no disrespect here, but it seems like your lacking in self respect.


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## JCD

ssap said:


> almostrecovered - now that I am better armed with the knowledge of this forum. any rug sweeping or blame shifting will be called out. I just won't take it and I will be vigilant.
> 
> I am having lunch with him today to discuss more detail etc. and will take his temperature on that.
> 
> with that being said, a rush to forgiveness is a tenet of my faith whether I like it or not. Forgiveness can occur though without be sticking around.


I have been many flavors of Christianity, having gone to Catholic school, to Lutheran ecumenicalism and even some dabbling at Fundementalism.

So I've seen the gamut of Christian theology.

I'm not sure of what your particular flavor of Christianity is, but might I suggest that the Catholic Church has some measures which will help inform how you approach 'forgiveness'.

Yes, as a Christian, you are supposed to forgive. Say you have an alcoholic brother. He drinks. You forgive. He drinks some more. You forgive. He gets drunk hits a kid. You...well you see how it is.

Most brands of Christianity demand some changes in behavior for them to 'be a Christian' as my fundy stepmom calls it, or to earn penance, as my Catholic School Nun said it.

It serves a social function. The sinner is indicating to all and sundry what their sin was so that they can help that person with their weak point (I think critics call it 'judging' in a derogator manner...because, you know...using life experience or past history is like..wrong)

It also lets the sinner know they did wrong. Pain, whether physical or mental, is educational.

It also shows a certain...desire to get the subject over with. I recall this one powerful scene from 'The Misson' where Robert Deniro, who used to enslave Indians, dragged his armor and weapons behind him through hundreds of miles of tracks of jungle till even the Indians cried 'stop'.

It was moving. It showed regret.

So yes, you need to forgive, but the other person also needs to do very heavy lifting, if only so they can forgive themselves.

And if they don't think they need to do THAT...then they aren't actually asking for grace, are they?


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## ssap

bandit - I completely agree about forgiveness if remorseful

67 - I'm sorry for your loss. I am still wading through the shock part of this.

JCD - That was very well put and I appreciate the thought put into it. 

I agree about the need in change of behavior and remorse. 

We're both home today and about an hour ago my wife had a complete melt down panic attack, hyperventilating, shaking, just awful. I helped her through it but am guarding myself. It won't do anyone any good if one of us ends up in the hospital. 

thank you all again, I may not do everything everyone advises but please know that I do read and value everything you contribute.


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## JCD

ssap said:


> JCD - That was very well put and I appreciate the thought put into it.
> 
> I agree about the need in change of behavior and remorse.
> 
> We're both home today and about an hour ago my wife had a complete melt down panic attack, hyperventilating, shaking, just awful. I helped her through it but am guarding myself. It won't do anyone any good if one of us ends up in the hospital.


You're welcome.

I think the panic attack is a good thing. The stress of what is occuring seems to be sinking in (unless you are driving her to it, which seems a bit far fetched). This means she is experiencing a sense of loss.

Minister to your wife.


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## Almostrecovered

unless the panic attack is due to missing OM


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## sandc

ssap said:


> really just keeps getting better and better. The OM's wife said they were going to work on it and I detected major sweeping and damage control already in the works so I feel very bad for her.


Have you thought about telling her about TAM? It may help her in the long run.


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## JCD

Almostrecovered said:


> unless the panic attack is due to missing OM


I think that's unlikely. 

If I were a betting man, I'd put 3-1 odds it is the impact of almost losing her family.

I'd put even odds on the mental conflict between OP and OM driving her to misery. Which, IMO, is a good thing. So far, all she had was happy goodness thoughts about the OM. If there is a conflict, it's to the good of ssap.

I am not a psychologist, nor did I spend the night in a Holiday Inn Express, so you may safely discount my opinions.


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## Almostrecovered

it's more likely that it's both, the fantasy world crumbled and her real world is crumbling


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## sandc

OP,
Are you planning on having a conversation with your wife about the new information you've discovered from OMW? 

If she's having a panic attack now I can only imagine what her reaction would be when confronted with all the trash she was talking.


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## Almostrecovered

I have a strong suspicion that there be a considerable amount of trickle truth coming your way


----------



## Pault

Boy I have to pat the business owner on the back - GOOD MAN!
As far as where to go here. Your W has betrayed you for the second time. Its bad when it happens for the first time but when its 8 months in when the hpneymoon period should be still going I suggest its a habitual cheating sequence.

You made a point of saying issues of fertility - Hate to put this forward but was/is she looking for someone to imprenate her (I hate that question ). If so this is really betraying you.

Back to 8 months in - caught then but not learning either you have to hold your hands up and say I didnt hammer this home and lay down the boundries OR I did lay these down and shes basically thought Im doing it with who, when i want no matter what....

Now - Its a really difficult issue as it does as suggested from your posts above that you are protecting your W in this situation even though it didnt go past Emotional affair testing it seems it was on route to a full blown Personal Affair.
Are you sure there has been no sexual contact? as she is a previous offender Id be wary of STIs - May be worth a visit and get checked out. It will knock her to know as well as she will see the additional aspects of having an entanglement. 

Will coucilling help? I question that. But if YOU decide to try it then she MUST without question go along with it or is there another reason (like shes happy to try and get away with it until next time?). 

One positive here - There appears to be no children in the loop who can be hurt by her actions.
remember to stay focused if you are taking control here. If your ex friends wife is happy to take him back DO NOT feel that you should also. Its your marridge that has been significantly damaged (twice), Now your wife is not earing there is a strong reason to suspect she will fight to keep a roof over her head and food in her stomach, all supplied by you. That clearly want an issue when she was leading up to an affair. 

Consider legal advice without her knowing. get your rights sorted so you feel more in control and then if she starts to wander from wanting to accept responsibility for her actions you can just drop in what will happen if the line is ever crossed or even approached.
Do not let your guard down - you will need to be observant


----------



## WyshIknew

ssap said:


> The OM's wife told me that my wife had divulged all sorts of "marital problems" (ones that didn't exist or were blown way up) and had told the OM that she was "done" and would leave any time. she asked the OM if he loved her and he said he could etc. etc.


As Sandc mentioned have you told your wife about this?

It's one more tool in your box, the fact that the OM is throwing her under the bus, it has to be a huge wake up call for her.

Unless she really really is properly remorseful I would kick her to the curb.

'Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me!


----------



## aug

Almostrecovered said:


> unless the panic attack is due to missing OM



more than likely. Since she has already checked out of the current relationship twice.

Thank goodness for no kids. The similarity to bff's thread about wife's infertility is interesting.


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## ssap

Thanks all. I'm on my phone now so my reply may lack the usual order but I did want to say 

That I did Tell my wife that the OMW said those things and she had a slough of excuses why she did that but said it was wrong to have done so.

Another component is a small but poorly timed argument that she took as a sign that I was done with her but failed to tell me felt that way. A poor excuse by any standard

Also, the fertility issue is on her side. I am healthy and fertile and have been footing many tens of thousands of dollars to try to achieve this goal
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

I am a Christian who reconciled with my wife after an affair. It was many years ago and we are still together.

I agree with you about forgiveness, but as well as being very hard it is separate from reconciliation.

You have to decide whether the affair is biblical grounds for divorce. If sex has occurred it is a no brainer. Otherwise it is more complex.

If you choose to reconcile, you already know the challenge is how to make it work. No extenuating circumstances and she is still trying to continue the affair. That's hard.

Good luck as you work through this. Sorry I don't have an answer for you.


----------



## Almostrecovered

ssap said:


> shaggy - how would that change my course? which is worse a kiss or strong emotional attachment.
> 
> a thoughtless one night stand or a long standing friendship that confuses the lines between friends and love?
> 
> I think its different for everyone.


It is indeed different. But getting the truth will more important than you think


----------



## ssap

*The MOST breaking news ever*

as most of you suspected and were correct. there is more new news! 

the OM's W called me today and told me that she now knows that they did have sex and gave me the details. 

the wife had gone for a walk and when she came back I asked if she had more to tell me. she said yes and also the the OM W had just sent her a text message saying a few things and telling that she had just had a convo with me.

So the wife proceeds to repeat the details. she was crying on the floor while doing so. I told her that she had to leave.

she started having a panic attach while packing so severe that she quick breathing and was truly unresponsive, I thought she was having a seizure.... called 911. then wife came to and pleaded not to send an ambulance so they send duputies instead.... the advice of the evening.... "we need counseling" thanks officer I think that is spot on.

wife calmed down, cops left, she started packing again, my brother came over to help me stay sane and as we speak he is following her (with her knowledge) over to her brothers house to stay. 

In spite of my wife having sex with my best friend in the back seat of her brand new truck which I pay for, I still have a duty to her safety. 

I am seeing that this duty is shortly relieved though. I cannot go back from this.

You guys (and gals) really know you're stuff and know I do to and I am sad for all of us.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Just wait and it will turn out to be more than once


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## Wazza

Almostrecovered said:


> Just wait and it will turn out to be more than once


No longer matters. OP knows enough for his decision. Any more detail is twisting the knife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jonesey

Almostrecovered said:


> Just wait and it will turn out to be more than once


 And your right

I think he already knows that


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## Acabado

Sorry man, we knew it was coming.
Let her be the one to ask to come back. Tell her your list of requirements for not filing inmediately, ask her to seek help on how to fix this mess. The ball is in her court.
Remeber my "requirement list"? She has to come clean, demand a timeline of the affair; When, what, where, how, who.
Beware she's going to still keeping to famage contol this by TT'ing the whole thing. She's going to put the star of all this way after the real start (boundarie crossing from "friendship" to EA to PA). You are for a rude awakening when you learn how deep is the rabbit hole.
She has to vomit the whole thing.

Another thigs is she's now angry at OM, he clearly trhew her under the bus, surely painting her as a predator who ralentless persued him untill he caved in. You can pretend you buy it for the time being, keep the lines of comunication clear with BW.

Now you need to add inmediately a STD test (which of course also aplies to you). It will be humiliating for her (another deterrent for the future).

Hang though, man


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## Almostrecovered

Wazza said:


> No longer matters. OP knows enough for his decision. Any more detail is twisting the knife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not trying to twist the knife just preparing him as trickle truth is just that, a slow trickle.


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## JCD

Don't make any choices now. You are at least in as much shock as she is.

I am enough of a lapsed Christian to not say it's your duty to reconcile or forgive. But you need a chance to calm down.

I feel for you and I'm sorry it came to this.

You're angry, you have a right to be angry, and it will take a long time to get over being angry. 

So take your time. One thing I read which seems to have some wisdom in it is take three days to rage and rail against this. Get drunk. Break things. Spit profanity. Cry and wail if you need to. Get it out of your system. Don't do anything self destructive. If Christ could come back from the dead in three days, you can come back from this in the same amount of time.

Then put your big boy pants back on and get on with life.

Maybe it's crap advice but it's something to think about.


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## sandc

We're sorry you had to find this out.

Here is the TAM law of trickle truth:
If spouse admits to an EA they kissed.
If spouse admits to kissing it was sex.
If spouse admits to a ONS, it was a long term PA.
Just once means many times.


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## Shaggy

Immediate consequences:

The truck you are paying for and she used for sex, gets sold. Even if you loose money on the deal. It is gone.

Exposé to family ASAP so they know.

Btw, notice how she didn't tell you, it took the OMW to tell you. I bet there is still more that you still have not been told.

Take alfthe family money ASAP and move your pay into an account only you have access to.


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## Shaggy

Want to bet there is more to the story at work ? They might have git caught having sex at work btw.


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## sandc

Let me take you back to your original post:



> Paraphrased: My wife and (ex) best friend were both fired yesterday from a company that the (ex) best friend’s brother owns. We are all married respectively and were friends up to this point; vacationed together, hang out weekends etc.
> 
> In short, the brother found compromising IM's between my wife and (ex) best friend incriminating the two of them in concocting this flirtatious alternate reality where they would joke about ending up together, compliments etc. a slew of things that are clearly crossing the boundary.


At my company inappropriate texts would get you a talking to by the HR department. I'm an IT Manager by trade so I assist HR in investigations all the time. Flirting and EA's happen at work. They get counciled, not fired. Maybe a letter in their file. 

What would get you fired is having sex on the premises. Whether within the building or in the company parking lot. This is what I'm starting to suspect happened. They went out to her truck and were spotted having sex by another employee or even the owner.

Has the owner of the company ever shown you the content of those "inappropriate texts?" I can't remember.


----------



## JCD

Shaggy said:


> Immediate consequences:
> 
> The truck you are paying for and she used for sex, gets sold. Even if you loose money on the deal. It is gone.
> 
> Exposé to family ASAP so they know.
> 
> Btw, notice how she didn't tell you, it took the OMW to tell you. I bet there is still more that you still have not been told.
> 
> Take alfthe family money ASAP and move your pay into an account only you have access to.


:iagree:

Not sure about the truck though.

If she wants to reconcile, *SHE* gets to tell the family with all the gruesome details as related to you.

If it's over, it's over. Start seperating your stuff, do the 180, not to entice her back but to emotionally distance yourself.

Do not have sex with her. Not even a good-bye screw.

Give her the want ads. She'll need a new job.

Make three lists: Things you insist on having, things you don't want, and things you're willing to trade.

Copy your financial records now.


----------



## ssap

thanks all, she did give the same details as the OM's W so they could be a a product of the 40 minute convo yesterday (two days ago now that its after midnight est) 

I have enough info to get my house in order. my family and hers knows about it. 

about selling the truck, it will be gone in short order. the resulting issue is that the fertility ate all my cash and savings and the rest got put on credit cards. until we started the fertility, I had lots of cash, no debt and one card that got paid off monthly. I decided to trade financial security for the hope of children so now I am going to lose everything I have (including the truck which I want gone now!) as i can't cover all our debts.

I will lose and I will lose but losing all of this is better than wasting my life with a person like that would do this to me. which is a very weird statement to make about your wife.

JCD - I am not trying to make these decisions too fast but its kind of hard not to in the face of all these truths. I will forgive but I can't promise much else.


----------



## JCD

You are still learning things, so you CAN'T make a rational or informed decision now. (Granted, anything else that comes out will probably make things worse...)

I am not in a Reconcile At All Costs philosophy.

Now, you spend a cubic sh*tload of money on the woman you loved. That's a good and admirable thing. Remember that. Unfortunately the person now inhabiting her body killed that woman by her choices.

It's money. Money burns. You aren't crippled. You're not dead. You can make more money.

Insist she get a new job very soon. Inform your lawyer that she WORKED but any malingering on her part now is an act of will, not of fiscal necessity.

You're not in as bad place finanacially as you think. Just keep whittling away.


----------



## sandc

Forgiveness does not mean a penalty is not paid.


----------



## tonyarz

I would run like the wind! If she needs help to stay faithful to you, I would make a break for it. 2 times that you know of she betrayed you. I know she is probably going to be remorseful, that is because it worked last time.


----------



## bff

So incredibly sorry, ssap. Been there with the fertility procedures. Cubic $$ and now it all seems so incredibly pointless. I hope you take some solace in the truth that knowing now how much she really valued your relationship, it is a BLESSING that you DIDN'T have kids. 

I am sending positive thoughts your way. All the best to you, Brother. NO ONE deserves this sh*t. You'll be better on the other side of it all.

BFF


----------



## WyshIknew

Next on the cheaters script, if it hasn't started already, will be texts and phone calls pleading for another chance.

You'll likely be told "I thought you didn't love me any more" "it just happened" "you seemed so distant" "he meant nothing to me" "the sex was awful" "why throw away x years of marriage, we can work it out" "I'll make it up to you" "we used protection" "Ilove you"
I'm sure some of the other posters here will have other stock examples.

Some cheaters, when they realise they are not getting through will then turn nasty and say some pretty vindictive things, then an hour or two later will be nice again.

If the seperation continues for some time you may have a jealous wayward accusing you of sleeping with other women (honestly).

One thing to think about when she tells you that she loves you and only you is that a mans semen lasts about 5 to 7 days in a woman. So if you had a relatively healthy sex life still, it is likely that your wife still had some of him there when you made love. Eeeeew

On rare occasions they will just bail but considering the panic attacks etc I think you are in for a rough ride yet.


----------



## ssap

thank you all for your kind words my way. I know money is just that, I am okay losing it all. I do still have a good job so i can rebuild

JCD - I agree that it is still 'in process'. I will try to not make those decisions too soon.

bff - thank you so much for your thoughts, I feel guilty not having had the time yet to find and read your story as bricks are still falling from the sky for me. I will read it.

I am thankful that this situation isn't complicated by kids.

my brother was here most of the night and is a very good person to be around. I also have (other) good friends for comfort. 

I can't help but to wonder if this is the reason all the fertility treatment wasn't working? I don't always like to draw lines like that though.


----------



## ssap

wyshiknew - she already admitted to unprotected and other details.

the only silver lining is that we hadn't had sex in at least a month and she had been cold towards me which had me looking for clues

the no sex thing though she said was from the various fertility shots etc she was on. guess that was just for me.

I do expect her to turn somewhat violent at some point. her self-preservation will kick in at some point and I will see that raw emotion of more selfishness.

I am working to be prepared for that legally, financially, emotionally


----------



## Jonesey

Shaggy said:


> Want to bet there is more to the story at work ? They might have git caught having sex at work btw.



That what i was trying to point out to OP.But sadly he chose to ignore me.


----------



## JCD

Get a VAR for your bedroom and living room. Unless you decide to move out (I wouldn't from a LEGAL standpoint of assets) she might very well claim abuse at some point to try to bring you down to her level. Defend yourself.


----------



## WyshIknew

More breaking info the OM, my ex best friend called to apologize and say he was a piece of sht. says I never did anything to deserve it and I treated him like a brother (thanks for the reminder)

I said OK


Well that was big of him!

Obviously not enough like a brother to stop him lying by omission to you.

I do hope that it is now not ok!!

If he tries to talk to you again just tell him "sorry you must be mistaking me for someone who gives a sh1t"


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Sorry for you, I feel with you. All I could say is already said by other posters, only I would especially support the advice to be healing now first for yourself:



Falene said:


> I am so sorry you are here. I used to think that all affairs were equally devastating but yours has a sting to it that is heart breaking.
> 
> I would try and make no immediate decisions. I think this is so important when we are suffering through severe emotional trauma.
> 
> I do not say that in hopes you save your marriage or seek to divorce. That is your choice though I must say two affairs is one more than I would be able to swallow. One was more than enough for me.
> 
> Beyond that, you need time and you need to love yourself. If I were you, I would start exercising. It helps so much. You are not going to feel like eating but you need to. Anything is better than nothing but do try and eat as healthy as you can. It does make a difference.
> 
> Share your feelings. Be honest. Be patient with yourself. Be thankful you do not have children in this equation.
> 
> I hope you keep in touch here. You are going to get a lot of good advice. You are going to get some bad. You are going to hear from us betrayed spouses and from those of us that did the betraying. You will see the bitter and the brave.
> 
> Know that you are NOT alone. You did NOT do this. This is NOT about you. You did NOT deserve this. You deserved so much more.


----------



## happyman64

Ssap

Sorry it turned out this way or you.

When you get a chance read BFFs thread.

It will enlighten you.

It is alo a great example of how to move on after a traumatic event like this in your life.

Better you did find out before Yu or the OM had kids with her.

Your wife is really sick. Realize this now. Who else would have unprotected sex with OM while on fertility drugs and being married to you.

Just sick.

I am glad she is out of the house.

Find some peace, get your emotions under control then make those tough decisions.

HM64


----------



## warlock07

Maybe I am a cynic but I am little suspect about her panic attacks. And they stopped right after you called the ambulance, right? I think wouldn't it beyond her to fake the panic attacks. So just don't let her use the panic attacks as a manipulative tool(if she is doing so). 

The betrayal is enormous here. She was making you pay for the fertility treatments while having sex with your (ex) best friend. She stopped having sex with you(which is good in the hindsight). She put you in debt while cheating on you. There are so many layers of betrayal here. Be very careful with this woman. Like you mentioned things could get bad once she realizes that you are dumping her.


----------



## Wazza

Do I have it right that she was having unprotected sex with another man and refusing you during a fertility treatment? 

That's pretty low.


----------



## JCD

> My husband and I didn't throw barbs. Our tension was more insidious: After our first insemination attempt failed and we planned to try again, I began to resent the fact that I was the one booking the appointments, trekking to the doctor's office several mornings before dawn, lingering in waiting rooms, and getting blood tests and ultrasounds while J. slept peacefully.
> 
> Soon, our evening routine entailed syringefuls of synthetic follicle-stimulating hormones that I injected into my belly for weeks until I could feel my outsized ovaries jostle when I walked. This made any X-rated activities uncomfortable at best, downright painful at worst. The progesterone suppositories that followed — inserted every night at bedtime — rendered sex too messy to contemplate. More than that, they literally depressed me, inciting cravings for lasagna and midday naps. When I mention this to Keefe later on, he says that "progesterone is metabolized by the brain to a compound that's 10 times more sedating than a single Valium. So you might feel lethargic, bloated, and possibly constipated." None of which my own doctor had told me — but all of which explains why, between day one of each treatment cycle and the pregnancy test four or five weeks later, my husband and I had sex maybe twice.
> 
> 
> Taken from Marie Claire Cara Birnbaum June 22 2009


That said, the insinuation is pretty appalling. That she didn't want sex with the husband for a month is understandable considering some of the seeming side effects. But she's got a lot of 'splainin to do about why Office Scumbag got a shot at her ovaries.

But I figure ssap is already done.


----------



## ssap

Jonesey - I wasn't trying to ignore you, i just didn't have the information

JCD - I don't need a VAR for my bedroom. I sent her packing, made sure she couldn't get back into the house and am changing the locks. I will make sure she gets the rest of her stuff etc. but she won't be back in that house on her terms if I can help it.
and about the quote you posted, yes it is appalling. how she carved out a spot in her mind where she could do these things I will never understand.


WshIknew - he called before I found out about the sex. even still I could have called him every name in the book and continue to do so but that wont help me in any way. I feel very negative toward him but the limited energy I have now is to take care of myself.

warlock and Wazza - it is indeed enourmous and very low. she is sick and I cannot help her. 

preservation of self, coping, and trying to make a path out of this destruction is my immediate goal. then i think the healing can begin.

thank you all for your thoughts and inputs


----------



## JCD

ssap

This is vitally important for you to realize.

In a divorce, it isn't only the assets which get divided 50/50.

She's on the hook for half of that In Vitro stuff.

Just thought you could use some cheering.


----------



## Shaggy

So she's on fertility treatments - but not having sex with you - but is having sex with the OM - Soooo if she were to get pregnant it would have been his?

So you're paying for fertility treatments and She appears to be trying to get pregnant by the OM.

Wow - that is very very nasty.

The 40 min call was them planning on how to keep hooking up. Want to be she's got a plan to have you raise his kid?


----------



## warlock07

I am just curious. How did she rationalize not having sex with you while undergoing the treatments ?(I am not aware on how these treatments work though). Was she planning to have you raise his kid ?(there is a much worse word for it though)


----------



## JCD

Shaggy said:


> So she's on fertility treatments - but not having sex with you - but is having sex with the OM - Soooo if she were to get pregnant it would have been his?
> 
> So you're paying for fertility treatments and She appears to be trying to get pregnant by the OM.
> 
> Wow - that is very very nasty.
> 
> The 40 min call was them planning on how to keep hooking up. Want to be she's got a plan to have you raise his kid?


None of you understand exactly what she has to do to get preggers.

She needs the drugs just to spawn more than one egg at a time.

Then the doctor needs to suck them out of her ovaries. They have to be comingled with the husband's sperm and then, out of the eggs which fertilize, a couple of good candidates get shoved back into her womb.

So if she got preggars in the back seat of her truck, look around for Gabriel to make an Annunciation.


----------



## Complexity

I don't understand the thinking of women who have fertility problems, yet choose to cheat on their loving spouses who've done everything to help them. Is it their way of self destructing due to hopelessness? But that wasn't the case with BFF's wife, she was just selfish. I know having children is crucially important to most women and they're perhaps more adversely affected by infertility than men. Nevertheless, it's utterly cruel that you'd get "rewarded" in this way.


----------



## sandc

Everyone is right. I thought the same thing and you need to keep thinking this throughout your dealings with her:

She was trying to get pregnant by the OM.


----------



## sandc

When you decide to file, take a read through this thread.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/56310-need-help-ww-5.html

He's procrastinating a little, but when it comes to divorce he really has his ducks in a row. He thought about everything you should be thinking about.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

warlock07 said:


> I am just curious. How did she rationalize not having sex with you while undergoing the treatments ?(I am not aware on how these treatments work though). *Was she planning to have you raise his kid ?*(there is a much worse word for it though)




Yes, so she was having sex with OM and not with him.

She needs to be divorced yesterday.............


----------



## Complexity

She's the one with the fertility problems, not the OP. She can't get pregnant by anyone.


----------



## ssap

JCD and Complexity are correct. she cannot become inpregnated from intercourse. not even IVF at this point it seems

at some points during fertility treatments you actually have to "stage" by going on birth control which is where she had been the past few months in between other drugs that do other things, none of which were making her fertile per se. just creating an appropriate environment for an egg transfer like others mentioned.


----------



## aug

Well, maybe it's time to take this second free ticket she gave you to move on and find happiness elsewhere. Have several kids and a faithful wife. The upsetting memory of this will fade and be overwhelmed with satisfaction.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

If you can get evidence of them having more unprotected sex during your fertility procedures I would think you could use that to have the cost of these procedures deducted from her share of the split in case of devorce?


----------



## JCD

sandc said:


> Everyone is right. I thought the same thing and you need to keep thinking this throughout your dealings with her:
> 
> She was trying to get pregnant by the OM.





See_Listen_Love said:


> If you can get evidence of them having more unprotected sex during your fertility procedures I would think you could use that to have the cost of these procedures deducted from her share of the split in case of devorce?



First, ssap said she can't get pregnant from intercourse.

She could screw the entire team of the Green Bay Packers in one train and it will do nothing for her. (Sorry for the visual)

Second, she's on the hook for half the debt in the house. Why wouldn't she be on the hook for half the debt of the fertility treatments...if not more so!


----------



## mikiohung

Life, seen from afar is a comedy, a close look is a tragedy!


----------



## ssap

aug - the picture you paint gives me happy thoughts. I am hopeful a faithful and fulfilling life is ahead.

about the D and impending bankruptcy or whatever it turns in to, I'm not sure how all that works.

do we essentially mediate debts and then file bankruptcy separately. 

I know she wont be able to pay her debts. the house will need to be forclosed, short sold something. not sure how to begin handling this part of the deal. I have an element of surprise right now that I would like to use to my advantage for the upcoming hell storm when her self preservation kicks in.

thank you all for your input.


----------



## JCD

ssap said:


> aug - the picture you paint gives me happy thoughts. I am hopeful a faithful and fulfilling life is ahead.
> 
> about the D and impending bankruptcy or whatever it turns in to, I'm not sure how all that works.
> 
> do we essentially mediate debts and then file bankruptcy separately.
> 
> I know she wont be able to pay her debts. the house will need to be forclosed, short sold something. not sure how to begin handling this part of the deal. I have an element of surprise right now that I would like to use to my advantage for the upcoming hell storm when her self preservation kicks in.
> 
> thank you all for your input.


That is what you pay the attorney for. And I'd throw a few hundred dollars at a tax accountant who has a lot of familiarity with both bankruptcy and divorce (I'll bet you'll be spoiled for choice on that last... It always seems to happen together...)


----------



## OldWolf57

don't worry about bad credit. in this financial climate, you can by anothr home or repair your credit in 6 months.
You may also be able to refi the house at a lower rate using the gov't programs available.

Just get this decietful woman OUT of your life.


----------



## lovelygirl

Complexity said:


> I don't understand the thinking of women who have fertility problems, yet choose to cheat on their loving spouses who've done everything to help them. Is it their way of self destructing due to hopelessness? But that wasn't the case with BFF's wife, she was just selfish. I know having children is crucially important to most women and they're perhaps more adversely affected by infertility than men. Nevertheless, it's utterly cruel that you'd get "rewarded" in this way.


Yeah I don't get it too.
She should have been thankful to her husband for sticking with her, even-though it's because of her they can't have children.
And she cheats on him?


----------



## jnj express

File your BK, together, then straighten out what you want to do for a property settlement, you don't want to be worrying about her debts, when its all over, should she not have filed on her own----also the 2 of you just pay the one fee----

Anything you wanna keep, such as a CC---you re-affirm with them, and continue paying thru the BK---but it is probably best to BK, everything

The BK court, will exempt you on most of your valubles, the car, and the house, and you can decide what to do about them

If you are gonna BK, stop paying on all your cards, and any other debts---make sure you BK, everything, even the little debts---it all goes---but at the end of the month, all of your money is yours to keep

Many don't like those who file BK---but just like D., the govt. gives you a 2nd chance----SO TAKE IT


----------



## ssap

thanks for the advice jnj express.

I don't like BK either, or D. or any of this. but decision indicates choice.

I have no choice and did not make the decision for this to happen. I am just trying to prepare smartly for the consequences of my WW's poor decisions so my next life with be burdened as little as possible by her actions.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

ssap said:


> aug - the picture you paint gives me happy thoughts. I am hopeful a faithful and fulfilling life is ahead.
> 
> about the D and impending bankruptcy or whatever it turns in to, I'm not sure how all that works.
> 
> do we essentially mediate debts and then file bankruptcy separately.
> 
> I know she wont be able to pay her debts. the house will need to be forclosed, short sold something. not sure how to begin handling this part of the deal. I have an element of surprise right now that I would like to use to my advantage for the upcoming hell storm when her self preservation kicks in.
> 
> thank you all for your input.


It is possible that you end up with paying all the debts. Maybe you could get her to work to pay off your debts together untill you reach a zero level, then talk about devorce and not before.

It can be in your self interest to delay confrontation.


----------



## ssap

So the wife is in major reconciliation mode. says she will do whatever it takes, wants nothing to do with AP, hates what she did to me etc. etc. even told me that he texted her today but she did not text back and told me because she wants nothing to do with him.

why why why do they wait until its too late to do this stuff. its madening.

Also met with a christian counselor today and while no rug sweeping was suggested, I was told that since we had sex before marriage that sent a message that it was ok to do it with other people during marriage.... and that our marriage wasn't hopeless and while I have the right to D that we just need to put Christ as the head of our marriage and things would work out.

So now I'm left with two options as I see it. 

1) Divorce and feel guilty about it the rest of my life 

2) reconcile and die a little more inside and pray every night she doesn't do this again.

Great choices.


----------



## Malaise

ssap said:


> *So the wife is in major reconciliation mode. says she will do whatever it takes, wants nothing to do with AP, hates what she did to me etc. etc. even told me that he texted her today but she did not text back and told me because she wants nothing to do with him.*
> why why why do they wait until its too late to do this stuff. its madening.
> 
> She's saying what she thinks you want to hear
> 
> *Also met with a christian counselor today and while no rug sweeping was suggested, I was told that since we had sex before marriage that sent a message that it was ok to do it with other people during marriage.... *and that our marriage wasn't hopeless and while I have the right to D that we just need to put Christ as the head of our marriage and things would work out.
> 
> IMHO this is crap
> 
> So now I'm left with two options as I see it.
> 
> 1) Divorce and feel guilty about it the rest of my life
> 
> It's not your fault
> 
> 2) reconcile and die a little more inside and pray every night she doesn't do this again.
> 
> She probably will
> 
> Great choices.


----------



## warlock07

No offense, but that christian counselor should get his ass kicked and his license revoked!! What kind of retarded logic is that ? 

3rd choice: Divorce her and don't feel guilty. She already made the choice for you. The affair was going on for quite a while, right?


----------



## jh52

"Also met with a christian counselor today and while no rug sweeping was suggested, I was told that since we had sex before marriage that sent a message that it was ok to do it with other people during marriage.... "

Sounds like 2 + 2 = 5

How do people become counselor's these day -- school of quacks??


----------



## Shaggy

So premarital sex with your future spouse, gives them a green light to cheat.

Wow, that consellor is an idiot, in fact a damn dangerous idiot since he gives that stupid advice to people in real need.


----------



## Almostrecovered

religion is faith, not logic


----------



## warlock07

She is clutching at the straws. She knows she is a done deal. I am thinking that her family is coming down on her heavily. Don't let her manipulate you to reconcile. She had her chance already, one that most spouses don't get. She messed up again. She got caught, she never confessed. Then she kept lying.


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

That is a load of crap. With counselling like that who needs to ever get married.

Now I know why my wife stays with me since she was a virgin when we married.

I always thought she just loved me????

Find a new counselor SSAP.


----------



## sandc

Okay, I'm a Christian. Your pastor is wrong. Christ Himself said you are within your rights to divorce when there has been adultery by your spouse. You shouldn't feel guilty about it for the rest of your life, she should. You should divorce and find a good Christian woman who understands what a marital vow is. Your wife doesn't understand it is a covenant between a man, a woman, and GOD.


----------



## Jonesey

Maybe i have missed it some where i all of the post.But have she offered you a reason for the affair?


----------



## ssap

Almost recovered – you are right; I am trying to reconcile back to my faith not logic but it hard.

Sandc - he admitted that I am within my right and I don’t have to feel guilty about it but he felt it could be saved if I chose to take that path if she was sincere. that is what I'll feel guilty about.

Jonesey – her reasoning was that she liked the attention/compliments but could not say that I was not giving her the same attention and comfort. Even though she did physical things, she said it wasn’t for the sake of the physical, just the emotional attention/attraction that led to physical. I am not sure how I feel about that line of thought. She made and maintains no complaint about sex life, marital life etc. 
So I guess that boils down to she really doesn’t have an answer I guess. How am I supposed to reconcile with that?

I agreed to talk to her today since after my session I was trying to open my heart up to God’s path whether I like it or not but talking to her and getting all the details etc. made me feel much worse. I told her I didn't want to be married to a woman that i had to keep locked up in a church.

I don’t want to make this a big religious debate so I’ll try to leave out as much of those musings and struggles as I can and still deliver my position.


Thank you all for your input.


----------



## Zanna

Sadly, she is a serial cheater. 

Is she really willing to do everything? Then she should get herself IC, you both MC and really start pulling herself together.

But your best friend? That seems purposely cruel. 

I'm very sorry you're going through this...


----------



## TBT

ssap said:


> Jonesey – her reasoning was that she liked the attention/compliments but could not say that I was not giving her the same attention and comfort. Even though she did physical things, she said it wasn’t for the sake of the physical, just the emotional attention/attraction that led to physical. I am not sure how I feel about that line of thought. She made and maintains no complaint about sex life, marital life etc.
> So I guess that boils down to she really doesn’t have an answer I guess. How am I supposed to reconcile with that?


Yeah really,how are you supposed to reconcile that? By her reasoning no matter how great your marriage may be,it's just not enough.I wish you well in your deliberation and hope you come to a decision that is right for you.


----------



## Acabado

She cheates because she's a black hole, she craves external validation and she has no boundaires not character. Period. ALl is on her.
Can it be fixed? Maybe, but with tons of intensive therapy (Sex abuse nd the whole side effects as compartimentalization...) and commiting herself to very strong boundaires forever.
Actually she should forget about reconciling the marriage for a while and pout her a$$ in therapy. Without personal recovery you wilde will never be marriage material. Hard to gras but truth.
She's seriual cheater. THis time has crossed inthinkable boundaires. She is a complete train wreck.


----------



## Jonesey

ssap said:


> Almost recovered – you are right; I am trying to reconcile back to my faith not logic but it hard.
> 
> Sandc - he admitted that I am within my right and I don’t have to feel guilty about it but he felt it could be saved if I chose to take that path if she was sincere. that is what I'll feel guilty about.
> 
> *Jonesey – her reasoning was that she liked the attention/compliments but could not say that I was not giving her the same attention and comfort. Even though she did physical things, she said it wasn’t for the sake of the physical, just the emotional attention/attraction that led to physical. I am not sure how I feel about that line of thought. She made and maintains no complaint about sex life, marital life etc.
> So I guess that boils down to she really doesn’t have an answer I guess. How am I supposed to reconcile with that?
> *
> 
> The harsh truth. You can't.After affairs there are often talks about affair proofing the marriage.I agree with that..
> But in your case what are you suppose to do??
> 
> 
> 
> I agreed to talk to her today since after my session I was trying to open my heart up to God’s path whether I like it or not but talking to her and getting all the details etc. made me feel much worse. I told her I didn't want to be married to a woman that i had to keep locked up in a church.
> 
> I don’t want to make this a big religious debate so I’ll try to leave out as much of those musings and struggles as I can and still deliver my position.
> 
> 
> Thank you all for your input.


----------



## ssap

oh and she said she has no choice but to come back to the house tomorrow so I've got that to deal with too. she said she was going to stay in another bedroom and give me my space but I tell you its not space enough with her in the same county right now.

her parents told her it was "half her's too"


----------



## CH

ssap said:


> oh and she said she has no choice but to come back to the house tomorrow so I've got that to deal with too. she said she was going to stay in another bedroom and give me my space but I tell you its not space enough with her in the same county right now.
> 
> her parents told her it was "half her's too"


Oh boy, it looks like it's gonna get ugly soon with her parents rooting for her to get every penny from you that she can....

Here's hoping she'll just sign the papers quickly and be on her way but I really doubt this will be the case.


----------



## Shaggy

Tonight, go into her closet and dresser. Remove any sexy lingere, underwear, clothes, shoes, etc that she would have worn for him, put them in trash bag and donate them to a charity on the way to work tomorrow.

Take 50% of all cash assets and move them into a account only you control,

Cancel joint credit cards.

Go visit hr at her work and demand the full story.

See a lawyer.


----------



## Decorum

I'v been following your thread for many days.
Wow,
I know how that goes with a Pastor, they focus on redemption so much that they recomend it out of hand, and sometimes they really dont have exposure to the reality of an affair to see clearly.

She is in suvival mode, she wants half the house, wants to reconcile etc it's not genuine.

She will cheat again.
She cannot begin to grasp what she has done, she does and may never realize that she is poluted in your mind now, no one can expect you to live with that, there should be and there is NO guilt. Your feelings of guilt are not necessarily evidence of genuine guilt. In this case, it could just be a conflict with the norms of the christian community you are involved with.
It your choice either way!

I know this (below) is O.T. but it is true unless there is some reason to do differently. Some reason, might be , true remorse?
But thats not happening is it?

Jeremiah 3:1
God says, "If a husband divorces his wife And she goes from him And belongs to another man, Will he still return to her? Will not that land be completely polluted?


----------



## JCD

ssap said:


> Also met with a christian counselor today and while no rug sweeping was suggested, I was told that since we had sex before marriage that sent a message that it was ok to do it with other people during marriage.... and that our marriage wasn't hopeless and while I have the right to D that we just need to put Christ as the head of our marriage and things would work out.
> 
> So now I'm left with two options as I see it.
> 
> 1) Divorce and feel guilty about it the rest of my life
> 
> 2) reconcile and die a little more inside and pray every night she doesn't do this again.
> 
> Great choices.


(Story)

There was this Sunday School Teacher who was getting a trifle troubled at how pat the answers of his Sunday School students were getting. He'd ask a question and get a wildly inappropriate response.

So one day, he decides to test this. He asks the kids "What is gray, lives in a tree and eats nuts?" The kids sort of get a wild look in their eyes but no one answers him. Finally, he points to Jimmy demanding an answer.

The kid is quiet for a moment and he says "Well...it sounds to ME like it's a squirrel, but I just KNOW the answer is Jesus..."

**

There are great Christian counselors out there who can help you with your problems, but if this is what you got from this guy, he isn't one of them!

Jesus is not magic snake oil, which you can rub on a cheating wife, fiscal problems, and drinking and just have it magically go away. Maybe mere faith might stop your wife from cheating. Certainly the prospect of having Jesus tsking over her shoulder as she flirts or worse with another man will be a mood killer.

But what if, flawed human being that she is, she loses that faith? She had trouble keeping her vows to you. What makes you think her character is enough to have her keep her vows to God?

See?

I am not saying to D. I'm not saying to R. Find another counselor.

As far as the guilt thing: Sir, YOU are also a beloved flawed creation of God. What exactly would God have owed Abraham if old Abe stapled that foreskin back on or refused to sacrifice his son? Nothing.

Your wife broke the deal. You get to measure how much forgiveness you have inside of you. Moses never got to see the Promised Land. Two early Christians got iced by God for lying to him over a land deal.

Don't feel too bad if you can't forgive this.


----------



## JCD

Shaggy said:


> Tonight, go into her closet and dresser. Remove any sexy lingere, underwear, clothes, shoes, etc that she would have worn for him, put them in trash bag and donate them to a charity on the way to work tomorrow.


Why would you inflict her skank clothes on some poor people? Don't they have enough troubles? 



> Take 50% of all cash assets and move them into a account only you control,
> 
> Cancel joint credit cards.


You mean he hasn't done this yet?!? (Glances at ssap) You haven't done this yet? WHY? And I'd say take it all and keep reciepts. You can always give her her half back, but if 'her half' is needed to pay the Mortgage on YOUR (Plural) house, then she has to pony up her half. Or would you rather try to make a go of paying the bills ONLY on your half of the assets (if any) while she uses HER half to find a really good divorce attorney?

She will ask why her ATM card doesn't work anymore. You tell her seriously "We have half the income with you out of work from cheating and I still have the same bills. I want to make sure I'm not going to ruin my credit rating more than I have to from supporting your fertility treatments. If you need money, I'd suggest the want ads."



> Go visit hr at her work and demand the full story.


IIRC, she's unemployed.


----------



## ssap

thank you all so much for your responses. 

Decorum - I am starting to feel like she is not grasping what she has done as you have said. and thank you for the reference to Jeremiah.

JCD - I like that story. thank you for the laugh and I think its a great point that even if we go through all of this, she may not be restored. Am i willing to take that chance?...


----------



## ssap

JCD - No I haven't done that yet. I'm still trying to figure out how to handle the bill situation as in I can't pay them all and sadly there's not much honey in the pot right now so she can't do any damage. 

I would just like to protect a few things that were my mothers before she passed. hopefully I can.


----------



## JCD

ssap said:


> JCD - No I haven't done that yet. I'm still trying to figure out how to handle the bill situation as in I can't pay them all and sadly there's not much honey in the pot right now so she can't do any damage.
> 
> I would just like to protect a few things that were my mothers before she passed. hopefully I can.


If you have X money and she takes Y money out, then she has done damage.

As far as the last point: that is what storage units are for. Steal a march on her in this regard. If money and things start disappearing, I think she'll get the memo without having to pay a process server.

Since you haven't closed the door on R, she can now start to be serious about how to fix this.


----------



## Rosemary's Granddaughter

ssap said:


> Also met with a christian counselor today and while no rug sweeping was suggested, I was told that since we had sex before marriage that sent a message that it was ok to do it with other people during marriage.... and that our marriage wasn't hopeless and while I have the right to D that we just need to put Christ as the head of our marriage and things would work out.


What denomination?


----------



## The bishop

Your WW is a serial cheater. She cheated on you during your honeymoon stage. She probably cheated on you since and before her latest A. She wasn't going to stop and the only reason you found out was because they got careless and they got fired. She was telling him that she will leave and if he can love her. She is very selfish.

I wouldn't R with a serial cheater, since I am one I know all too well, we are very selfish,liars and self centered manipulators who will beg forgiveness and promise to be good.... did I mention we are liars. 

Be Christian and forgive her, try to help her (but not as an enablier), but please don't stay married to her.... It will only cause you pain cause she will do this again.


----------



## Wazza

ssap said:


> So the wife is in major reconciliation mode. says she will do whatever it takes, wants nothing to do with AP, hates what she did to me etc. etc. even told me that he texted her today but she did not text back and told me because she wants nothing to do with him.
> 
> why why why do they wait until its too late to do this stuff. its madening.
> 
> Also met with a christian counselor today and while no rug sweeping was suggested, I was told that since we had sex before marriage that sent a message that it was ok to do it with other people during marriage.... and that our marriage wasn't hopeless and while I have the right to D that we just need to put Christ as the head of our marriage and things would work out.
> 
> So now I'm left with two options as I see it.
> 
> 1) Divorce and feel guilty about it the rest of my life
> 
> 2) reconcile and die a little more inside and pray every night she doesn't do this again.
> 
> Great choices.


The counsellor is theologically wrong and not all that smart about marriage either.

Even if you WANT to reconcile, it's hard work. It's the worst pain I've experienced, and the pain never totally goes away (and I'm 22 years out). In my case I reconciled because we had children and I was determined to be in their life.

I don't want to make it sound all bad....I am happy in my marriage now, and the pain when it happens is not like it used to be when the affair first happened. 

But if you want to reconcile I think you need two things. 

First you need to be sure you want it, because you are going to REALLY want to give up sometimes.

Second, you need some basis for rebuilding trust, and it has to be more than her words right now. If you see this as deeply out of character, then maybe. I saw my wife's affair as deeply out of character, but then I'm not the only BS who says that after being blindsided. 

If you don't have those things, my advice would be to divorce and be free of guilt. And possibly to arrange some time apart so you can think.

I wonder if your wife is moving back in as a means to reopen communications, seeing it as a step to healing. I would take legal advice as to how I could move out and separate for a while without affecting my property rights. Or do what I did for a while. Only come home to sleep.


----------



## jnj express

SSAP---start the BK---if you have little or no money---that is what the BK is for, just stop paying your CC's and other bills that are not necessities.

In this country, you are allowed to BK, every 10 yrs, and there are couples who do BK, every 10 yrs, the govt., allows, so take advantage of it.---If you get a D., lawyer, he/she can do the BK, also.

You would only pay those bills such as utilities, insurances, etc

You can survive w/out CC's and at the end of the month---you DO have some money in your pocket--

Your wife does have the right to live in the house---just take all her clothes, and cosmetics, and stick them in one room, and tell her that is where she stays----tell her she is da*n lucky to have the one room, since she thinks that you are a POS, for that is what her actions say

You need to stop going to counselors---just sit down, and figure out what you want out of the rest of your life

The other decision is, in even contemplating a possible R., can you stand to be with this woman, for the rest of your life, and can you handle the loss of trust, the becoming a parole officer, the triggers, and visions---for if you stay with her, all that baggage comes with her

She all of a sudden "gets it"---and wants to R, cuz all of a sudden, she knows what reality looks like---if you D., her, she does not like the look of reality on her own----so of course you get to be the back--up plan

So comes the 3rd question that needs to be answered, WHY IS SHE STAYING---cuz she loves you---her actions say a loud no--------or cuz you are the bankroll, and she continues her lifestyle, and if she cheats again---cuz she gets bored with her POS H., so what, you will stay with her, as you did this time

These are the things---YOU MUST DECIDE---nothing/no one else, matters, this is all about the REST OF YOUR LIFE.


----------



## JCD

Wazza said:


> The counsellor is theologically wrong and not all that smart about marriage either.
> 
> Even if you WANT to reconcile, it's hard work. It's the worst pain I've experienced, and the pain never totally goes away (and I'm 22 years out). In my case I reconciled because we had children and I was determined to be in their life.
> 
> I don't want to make it sound all bad....I am happy in my marriage now, and the pain when it happens is not like it used to be when the affair first happened.
> 
> But if you want to reconcile I think you need two things.
> 
> First you need to be sure you want it, because you are going to REALLY want to give up sometimes.
> 
> Second, you need some basis for rebuilding trust, and it has to be more than her words right now. If you see this as deeply out of character, then maybe. I saw my wife's affair as deeply out of character, but then I'm not the only BS who says that after being blindsided.
> 
> If you don't have those things, my advice would be to divorce and be free of guilt. And possibly to arrange some time apart so you can think.
> 
> I wonder if your wife is moving back in as a means to reopen communications, seeing it as a step to healing. I would take legal advice as to how I could move out and separate for a while without affecting my property rights. Or do what I did for a while. Only come home to sleep.


I like this entire post.

She is a two time (and two timing) loser, so she has her work cut out for her. Moving back is a sign. What is the sign? I don't know. Is it 'I want to stake my property claims' or is it "I can't fix this if I'm not around'? Or is it "My parents are tired of having me back home since they can't run around naked anymore"?


Now, onto a couple of tactics.

For every hint you get from the men here about how to handle divorce, the women have their own game plan based on societal protections and expectations.

So: 

The Lock Out: Where you come home and find out the place you've been paying for for years is not against you.

Response: 

Proactive Tactic: Make a ***** in your household armor. Leave an upstairs or basement window unlocked. Better would be to invisibly disable it (i.e. take out the screws of the hasp and superglue it back on so if wifey locks it, a quick pull can open the window with minimal damage) Or take the screws out of the window AC unit so you can push it into the house. If you are in an apartment, you tell the landlord what is happening and ask that he insist on getting a copy of any key change in an apartment.

Legal Notice: You put a legal notice in the county newspaper that you are NOT waiving any ownership or equity in X property(s) A few dollars.

The Portfolio: This is something you carry when you must leave the house. In it you have

Your attorney's card with his cell and house number in case you get bushwacked late at night.

Copy of your lease/mortgage with your name prominent. Maybe a few tax reciepts as well.

The Form:

"I _______ am being asked by Law Enforcement Offical to vacate my *legal premises* in the interest of public safety and peace.

I am not waiving, or passing ownership, occupation, or usage over to That Effing B*tch (You might want to use her legal name there). I am TEMPORARILY for one night vacating the premises at the request of a law enforcement officer. This is not a precedent in any legal sense.

___________ (Place for officer to sign with his badge number


___________(Place for his partner to sign. If they don't sign, you ain't moving. Get them on the hook)

I That Effing Cheating B*tch understand that I do not have sole legal ownership or usage of X address. I am not demanding full ownership or usage. I acknowlege my husband is a legal resident and co-owner and has full usage rights to X property. I am not asking for a waiver of these rights.

________(Place for her to sign)

If she WON'T sign, then ask the officer "I'm offering to leave to keep the peace. What exactly is she trying to do? Maybe SHE should leave." 

She can get her own form.

The False Beating Allegation:

VAR's and Nannycams. I'm sure she's a Lovely Decent human being...who effed a friend. But in a fit of anger when she feels the walls closing in on her and she knows in her heart she's scum and needs to bring you (at least socially) down to her level, she might say something...imprudent. Or she could just know it's over and try to get the very best deal she can.

So nanny cams. Keep records of where you are. If you leave and the house is intact and come home to the house in a mess, to the neighbors IMMEDIATELY (or call some third party people) and tell them what you found. DO NOT GO INTO THE HOUSE and try to document your whereabouts. Carry a smartphone so you can videotape her damages if any.

Just being my normal paranoid self.


----------



## warlock07

> Here is where the damage multiplier comes in. This is not her first time doing this to me. *She was involved with a coworker/boss several years ago just 8 months into our marriage.* I dealt with it as constructively as possible and really tried to facilitate the healing. Months went by, things got better, and she did a lot to help rebuild our relationship. I could probably be a little guilty of “sweeping”


Taken from your first post. Don't even think about reconciliation. Your wife is entirely unfit for marriage or a committed relationship. Why do you think she is always after other men while married to you? She probably thinks she settled for you. Or she just does not care about you. Does her family know of her first affair ? This woman does not respect you or value you at any level. 

You don't realize how lucky you are:
1) You don't have kids with this woman
2) You were lucky that the OM's brother was such a honest man and exposed them.

You can never trust this woman. She did not confess. She lied after getting caught. She planned to run away with her OM. She had the affair for almost 2 years. The only truth you got was from the OM's wife. And she did this twice in your marriage while burdening you financially. I even think she faked the panic attacks. There is nothing left in this marriage except for your respect and dignity. You will even lose that if you stay with any longer.


----------



## Chaparral

I am neither recommending D nor R. But no matter which you choose you need to read Married Man Sex Life NOW. The book is misnamed. It is not a sex guide but reveals the dynamic between men and women.

Everyone who reads finds their situation described to a tee.

This may not help in your sitch because your wife just may be mentally damaged. Thats a different thing altogether.

MMSL will help you in this or your next relationship.


----------



## Doc Who

Ssap,

There was one piece of advice from the christian counsellor that was good - put Christ first. And Jesus himself made it very clear that adultery is an acceptable reason for divorce. Your "wife" has done it twice to you.

You can tell her you hope she can heal her soullessness, but that you cannot stay with someone who does not value marriage. Who does not value you. Who does not value herself enough to keep a sacred promise.

I hope for her sake that she can change, but the hell you will face being with her will be enormous. Perhaps you are willing to face that. If so, we all wish you strength.

But right now, she is the anchor on the USS Missouri, headed straight to the bottom of the Mariana Trench. And she is tied around your neck. It is okay to save yourself and toss it off before she takes both of you all the way down.

I just hope for your sake you have enough air to get back to the surface.


----------



## ssap

thanks everyone. I do study each one of your comments even if I don't directly respond.

DocWho - no matter what happens, I have committed to God to put him first. while free-will led to this situation, I admit that had If I had put him at the head of the marriage then the path of the marriage may have been just different enough to avoid these temptations (I have had my own but never strayed)

Since my last status update she has "found her Salvation in God" and says that she wants to "Live for Him, put Him first and reconcile our marriage". she has turned the gas on this stove full turn and has been reading scripture, attending Wednesday and Sunday studies and services etc...... 

from my education from this forum I treat it with a measure of skepticism.

she finally finished confessing the other night (major case of TT) and admitted that her first time having sex with the OP *was in fact on my 30th birthday*. thanks for that memory... really.

I asked how she could have sought salvation, read the WW guide to understanding the BS (from this forum) etc. and not have come clean. she said she now (just now) realized that withholding info was not protective of our marriage, just of herself and indeed wrong.

also, the single sex event from the first affair several years ago grew by one to two times having sex. but she did genuinely come clean to this. 

I still have my finger on the divorce button and wish I could press it with abandon but scripture teaches that even though God permits divorce, there are so many examples of Adultery being forgiven and renewed I can't ignore the alternative. whether I hate the idea of it at this point or not.

I won't go into it anymore for those not looking or appreciating a non-secular view but suffice it to say that I am in a struggle that has left me depressed, angry, destructive, hopeless and so much more.... this sucks.

feeling so alone in your misery and despair yet surround by people is a strange feeling


----------



## Danielfom

I already know how this is gonna turn out. 

While there are many examples of adultery being forgiven there are also many examples of adultery being forgiven and then more adultery following. Exactly like what happened in your marriage. 

The fact that your wife is suddenly drinking the kool aid is very suspicious and I doubt that its going to last more than a few months. 

Theres no heavy lifting here. Shes just using faith as a shortcut, and its working. 

If this is your decision go to it, but blind unconditional trust shouldn't be coupled with a any decision to R. v\Verify everything. Put some of that faith into GPS and a VAR in her truck if you haven't already sold it. 

Also nonetheless, split your bank account because her family has already started playing the 50/50 game.


----------



## MattMatt

ssap said:


> thanks everyone. I do study each one of your comments even if I don't directly respond.
> 
> DocWho - no matter what happens, I have committed to God to put him first. while free-will led to this situation, I admit that had If I had put him at the head of the marriage then the path of the marriage may have been just different enough to avoid these temptations (I have had my own but never strayed)
> 
> Since my last status update she has "found her Salvation in God" and says that she wants to "Live for Him, put Him first and reconcile our marriage". she has turned the gas on this stove full turn and has been reading scripture, attending Wednesday and Sunday studies and services etc......
> 
> from my education from this forum I treat it with a measure of skepticism.
> 
> she finally finished confessing the other night (major case of TT) and admitted that her first time having sex with the OP *was in fact on my 30th birthday*. thanks for that memory... really.
> 
> I asked how she could have sought salvation, read the WW guide to understanding the BS (from this forum) etc. and not have come clean. she said she now (just now) realized that withholding info was not protective of our marriage, just of herself and indeed wrong.
> 
> also, the single sex event from the first affair several years ago grew by one to two times having sex. but she did genuinely come clean to this.
> 
> I still have my finger on the divorce button and wish I could press it with abandon but scripture teaches that even though God permits divorce, there are so many examples of Adultery being forgiven and renewed I can't ignore the alternative. whether I hate the idea of it at this point or not.
> 
> I won't go into it anymore for those not looking or appreciating a non-secular view but suffice it to say that I am in a struggle that has left me depressed, angry, destructive, hopeless and so much more.... this sucks.
> 
> feeling so alone in your misery and despair yet surround by people is a strange feeling


Look, mate, I feel for you, but can I ask you one question?

Put the teachings of God to one side for the moment. (Just for the moment...)

With that in mind, what do YOU want to do? 

Could you see yourself divorcing from your wife?

If so... would you want to be divorced from her? To live the rest of your life without her being an important part of it?

And as for religious teachings? My wife has two doctorates. One being Theology. Yet she had an affair...


----------



## JCD

Yeah. Sounds like the Delorean Defense to me.

Jesus is not a magic salve you can rub on a festering wound. Nor is it a magic pill which ensures forgiveness FROM MAN. Jesus is about grace bequeathed in Heaven. It's the toll paid for admission to Heaven.

Man, being more earthy, didn't promise automatic forgiveness with the dunk in the baptismal font. WE are allowed to ask for sureties.

Just something to consider re faith. Faith without works is dead. Evangelicals don't like that phrase much but it really fits. So what if she's covered with the blood of the Redeemer if she's also fornicating without stop? What then is her faith worth?

Yes, it will take about 6 months to a year for the 'newness' of Christ to wear off. Out of the religious ferver to the standards of faith.

So you have a long road if you follow it.


----------



## Shoshannah

I am a Christian believer whose husband had an affair and is a Christian as well. We were ale to reconcile, though I have difficulty at times with triggers and memories. Our situation was a bit different, but I want you to know that you seem to be clear thinking and realistic about your wife at this point. You are right about Scripture and have every right to divorce her. You are at a very difficult crossroads. Keep this in prayer and be patient. I just wanted you to know that I admire your attitude in the midst of a very difficult and lonely journey.


----------



## MattMatt

JCD said:


> Yeah. Sounds like the Delorean Defense to me.
> 
> Jesus is not a magic salve you can rub on a festering wound. Nor is it a magic pill which ensures forgiveness FROM MAN. Jesus is about grace bequeathed in Heaven. It's the toll paid for admission to Heaven.
> 
> Man, being more earthy, didn't promise automatic forgiveness with the dunk in the baptismal font. WE are allowed to ask for sureties.
> 
> Just something to consider re faith. Faith without works is dead. Evangelicals don't like that phrase much but it really fits. So what if she's covered with the blood of the Redeemer if she's also fornicating without stop? What then is her faith worth?
> 
> Yes, it will take about 6 months to a year for the 'newness' of Christ to wear off. Out of the religious ferver to the standards of faith.
> 
> So you have a long road if you follow it.


All roads are long. Depends on who you choose for your companion...


----------



## ilgitano

jh52 said:


> "Also met with a christian counselor today and while no rug sweeping was suggested, I was told that since we had sex before marriage that sent a message that it was ok to do it with other people during marriage.... "
> 
> Sounds like 2 + 2 = 5
> 
> How do people become counselor's these day -- school of quacks??


I absolutely agree... In fact, sex before marriage is essential. It should be mandatory.


----------



## The bishop

Hope you have a lot of faith cause she is going to do what she can to win you back and once she does, she will slowly turn away from God and you and seek the OM or someone else


----------



## husbandfool

divorce


----------



## sandc

There are a lot of examples of forgiveness in Scripture that is true. But forgiveness does not remove the consequences of the sin. As Christians we are forgiven of our sins but we still have to face the consequence which is death. You can forgive her but you still need to impose consequences. That could be any of a number of things including divorce. Don't let anyone else decide what is right for you. You can forgive her AND divorce her. That is scriptural as well.


----------



## MattMatt

husbandfool said:


> divorce


There is no one answer. One size does not fit all.


----------



## Complexity

You're throwing away your life imo.


----------



## aug

Good for her. She's smart. She found your weakness and is working hard on it. And you appear to let her.

After all this appear to blow over, then the real long term interesting life begins.


But really...

She has given you a free ticket to move on and start a new family with kids. You cant count on her faithfulness because she's a repeat offender and she cheated with your best friend. She's wired that way. It'll take decades, if ever, for her to overcome her imprinting and biology. (Could we blame her parents?) The bottom to her moral standards seem very low. She's even using this "miraculous" transformation to manipulate you.

I think she doesnt want to lose her meal ticket and is working hard to keep you. But what happens later when she back at another job?

You have this free ticket for a new family with several children. I think you should take God's command to be fruitful and multiply.


----------



## Wazza

I am also a christian, also reconciled, also agree with the theology of what you are saying.

And if you reconcile it's going to hurt like hell, and then if she cheats again it is going to hurt worse.

If you try to reconcile, you must recognise the fragility of the relationship. And I would STRONGLY advise against having children, since it's not certain that you'd make it, and it's not fair to them if you split. By the time you can have reasonable certainty you've made it, your biological clocks will be past the point where kids are an option.

My prayers are with you in the decision you have to make.


----------



## warlock07

ssap said:


> thanks everyone. I do study each one of your comments even if I don't directly respond.
> 
> DocWho - no matter what happens, I have committed to God to put him first. while free-will led to this situation, I admit that had If I had put him at the head of the marriage then the path of the marriage may have been just different enough to avoid these temptations (I have had my own but never strayed)
> 
> Since my last status update she has "found her Salvation in God" and says that she wants to "Live for Him, put Him first and reconcile our marriage". she has turned the gas on this stove full turn and has been reading scripture, attending Wednesday and Sunday studies and services etc......
> 
> from my education from this forum I treat it with a measure of skepticism.
> 
> she finally finished confessing the other night (major case of TT) and admitted that her first time having sex with the OP *was in fact on my 30th birthday*. thanks for that memory... really.
> 
> I asked how she could have sought salvation, read the WW guide to understanding the BS (from this forum) etc. and not have come clean. she said she now (just now) realized that withholding info was not protective of our marriage, just of herself and indeed wrong.
> 
> also, the single sex event from the first affair several years ago grew by one to two times having sex. but she did genuinely come clean to this.
> 
> I still have my finger on the divorce button and wish I could press it with abandon but scripture teaches that even though God permits divorce, there are so many examples of Adultery being forgiven and renewed I can't ignore the alternative. whether I hate the idea of it at this point or not.
> 
> I won't go into it anymore for those not looking or appreciating a non-secular view but suffice it to say that I am in a struggle that has left me depressed, angry, destructive, hopeless and so much more.... this sucks.
> 
> feeling so alone in your misery and despair yet surround by people is a strange feeling


What can she do to you to break up with her ? What does she have to give back to the marriage after such betrayal ? Your wife is one of the phony people that turn to faith and God when they are finally caught!! Or her family is forcing this on her and she is just spewing back some spoon fed b*llcrap without actually meaning anything. And change that comes so fast can her equally fast. 

You are still young. You have a real chance to find happiness again with a woman that does not cheat serially on you and have kids with her. Whay do want to be stuck with this woman ? She cheated on you twice. TWICE!! Do you realize what that means ? Think about it. 

And she did it over long term. She got caught both the times!! She wouldn't have cheated on you again if hadn't got with her after the first incident. Don't give her that power your break your heart again. She had her fair number of chances. Don't kill yourself from the inside.

Imagine if you caught her cheating in a few years when you have very youngs kids that need her mother. There is a guy here who cannot leave his serial cheating wife(3 times and now is suspecting a 4th time) because they have kids with special needs. Don't get into this postion.


----------



## warlock07

> but scripture teaches that even though God permits divorce, there are so many examples of Adultery being forgiven and renewed


Check what these scriptures say about serial adultery!! No, I am not being a smartass or anything. She had her chance after the first time to repair and heal you. Even one is hard. Doing it again and that too with your best friend takes some level of disrespect and disdain for you. Imagine what you would have to feel for your wife to do the same to her....

And she doesn't have any other option other than you right ? now that I think about it, I would guess the 40 min phone call to be her pleading the OM to leave his wife and get together with her. can you confirm it somehow ?(through his wife or even ask him directly for some truth )


----------



## TDSC60

Christ teaches forgiveness of sins. This is to purge your soul of the anger and thoughts of retribution - the desire to pay the pain back in kind. If you confess your sins to God and are truly repentant, you will be forgiven.

Forgiveness does not mean you have to stay married. You can forgive her for her sins against you and let her go her own way alone. Divorce in this case would be something you might need for your own peace of mind. It is not to punish her, it is to move forward and heal yourself.

The choice is your's and only your's.


----------



## Shaggy

How did it come about that she chose your birthday to have sex with the OM?

Are you going to stop having birthdays or just stop having birthdays involving her in the celebrations?


----------



## Kasler

Christ teaches forgiveness, but that forgiveness isn't bundled with immunity from consequences. 

From what I've read of Mrs. Convenient panic attack, she using faith to get back in your good graces sans heavy lifting and IC/MC. 

Problem is its only a stopgap and won't last forever. 

I give it a year at most before her church outings drop off and shes out with friends again.


----------



## Malaise

What you must determine is this:

Is she sincere iin her beliefs or does she know just what buttons to push to make you stay with her.

She comes to having found God again and you think that as a Christian you should take her back into the fold, the stray lamb returning.

Or is this a calculated move by a cold hearted cheater who had sex with OM on your birthday and is cynically using faith against you.

Don't let your faith blind you to the fact that there are those who will use Scripture for their own ends.


----------



## aug

By the way, God also allow multiple wives per husband. Check out Abraham, David, and many others. 


Maybe you should try out the modern version of this?


----------



## Falene

ssap said:


> thanks everyone. I do study each one of your comments even if I don't directly respond.
> 
> DocWho - no matter what happens, I have committed to God to put him first. while free-will led to this situation, I admit that had If I had put him at the head of the marriage then the path of the marriage may have been just different enough to avoid these temptations (I have had my own but never strayed)
> 
> Since my last status update she has "found her Salvation in God" and says that she wants to "Live for Him, put Him first and reconcile our marriage". she has turned the gas on this stove full turn and has been reading scripture, attending Wednesday and Sunday studies and services etc......
> 
> from my education from this forum I treat it with a measure of skepticism.
> 
> she finally finished confessing the other night (major case of TT) and admitted that her first time having sex with the OP *was in fact on my 30th birthday*. thanks for that memory... really.
> 
> I asked how she could have sought salvation, read the WW guide to understanding the BS (from this forum) etc. and not have come clean. she said she now (just now) realized that withholding info was not protective of our marriage, just of herself and indeed wrong.
> 
> also, the single sex event from the first affair several years ago grew by one to two times having sex. but she did genuinely come clean to this.
> 
> I still have my finger on the divorce button and wish I could press it with abandon but scripture teaches that even though God permits divorce, there are so many examples of Adultery being forgiven and renewed I can't ignore the alternative. whether I hate the idea of it at this point or not.
> 
> I won't go into it anymore for those not looking or appreciating a non-secular view but suffice it to say that I am in a struggle that has left me depressed, angry, destructive, hopeless and so much more.... this sucks.
> 
> feeling so alone in your misery and despair yet surround by people is a strange feeling


I am a very spiritual person. I am not at all religious. I firmly believe that sometimes we just need to give it to G-d to deal with and have Him work it out. 

With that said...

I respect your decision to continue working on the marriage after you have found out your wife is a serial cheater. The amount of faith you have is an indicator of your ability to trust something you can't see simply because you feel it in your heart.

I beg of you though, please know that G-d has no desire for you to suffer and if she continues to cheat it has nothing to do with you or G-d, it is her shortcoming and you will have to deal with it.

With your faith in G-d, you must still set the R up for success by following the need for transparency, no contact, etc. Remember, that G-d helps those that help themselves.

Good luck to both of you. I sincerely hope your wife knows how lucky she is because someone who is willing to work through what you are doing would be very hard to find. I wish you the very best.


----------



## MattMatt

Shaggy said:


> How did it come about that she chose your birthday to have sex with the OM?
> 
> Are you going to stop having birthdays or just stop having birthdays involving her in the celebrations?


Perhaps in the fog of betrayal it was probably the only day the OM was available, so she forgot about it being his birthday until it was too late?


----------



## bandit.45

MattMatt said:


> Perhaps in the fog of betrayal it was probably the only day the OM was available, so she forgot about it being his birthday until it was too late?


No. It was planned. This chick is insidious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aug

MattMatt said:


> Perhaps in the fog of betrayal it was probably the only day the OM was available, so she forgot about it being his birthday until it was too late?



Or, the sex was more intense that day because it was her husband's big 3 0 birthday.


----------



## Patrick1959

SSAP

The majority of posters here seem to follow the Eurasmian view regarding divorce and remarriage, but the majority of other early church fathers held a different view of divorce and remarriage. You obviously have good grounds for divorce, but remarriage is more problematic for non-protestant Christians (those with an Orthodox perspective or fundamentalist Southern Baptists). This theology is rather complex and my attention is not to hijack your post but to suggest some references that may offer some different perspective regarding your struggle. 

I know that some of this is premature as your struggle now regards the decision to try to work through a very damaged marriage with someone who has yet to prove that she is willing to do the difficult work necessary for reconciliation; or if you’re present pain is to great to now begin a serious reconciliation attempt. However, these are difficult decisions that you will be facing and the associated theology is complex and takes time to work through. 

Below is a summary of a link that provides a summary of an alternative interpretation. 

Adulterous marriage

For a more detailed explanation of the Eurasmian view and other contrary interpretations a good book to read is “Jesus and Divorce, The problem with the Evangelical Consensus” by William Heath and Gordon Wenham. 

Another good book about the biblical perspective of marriage and adultery is “God’s Unfaithful Wife, a biblical theology of Spiritual adultery” by Raymond Ortlund.


----------



## happyman64

Ssap

Just take it one day at a time. You have all the time in the world to push the D or R button. 

The choice is yours.

Get your emotions leveled off. That takes time. Use that time to get your self esteem back and focus your energy on improving you.

And just remember you can only ave one 30th birthday. Thank God for that.

Watch her actions, that is the key if she is remorseful or not.

HM64


----------



## Acabado

She's not only a serial cheater, friend. She has crossed unimaginable boundaires with you (your best friend), with her friend (BW), with her employer (OM's brother)..., this, coupled with the fact she cheated on you in the heat of the honeymoon phase (not after the infertility issue/excuse)... do you have any idea how f0cked up is your wife in the head? It's very serious.
God won't solve her issues. She needs intensive counseling. She's not likely marriage material. Can be? She has to turn herslef inside out. For this she needs serious help.
Don't let her cloud you mind with her pushing the right bottoms. You already had it right in your first post here:


> Does she have some latent psychological issues related to her childhood abuse that gives her this trouble with boundaries and affection for “authority” figures?


The answer is YES. Absolutly. I have no idea what the issues are but they are obvious. God might help her to be persistent in her work to change inside but won't "fix" her.

Friend, while I wouldn't stay with her in your circunstances I respect your decision. Asuming she's meeting your boundaires you risk very little beyond your heart (please, protect yourself financialy, a post nup comes to mind). 
Still, please, demand her to get therapy, watch her closely, demand her to show you the maths. Forget about MC. There are not no marriage issues to solve. Really. Your marriage issues consit there's a weak link in the chain.
And please, forget about Christian counselors.


----------



## bandit.45

God hasn't forgiven Satan. I'd say this guy's wife is as close to an earthly analogue of the Dark Lord as we have seen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Doc Who

ssap

Please, please pray about this. A lot. And watch her. God has given you eyes to see and a mind to understand.

I am glad she has apparently sought forgiveness through Christ. Blessed be those who come to the Father through the name of the Son. But also cursed are those that do so with a false heart. Just remember, the odds are pretty high that her heart is not with Christ.

While you are torn between forgiveness and divorce, I offer that is a false choice. You can, and should, forgive her. But you can forgive her and divorce her too. She has a whole in her soul that you cannot fix. Only she and God can. But thinking you have to remain married to one just because they ask forgiveness is FALSE. the freedom to divorce has already been granted by Christ Jesus himself. Now, it is up to you to decide if you should.

And in making that decision, BE WISE. Do not let your heart make the call because your heart has been deceived. It is not capable of making the decision necessary. Instead, weigh carefully the future of yourself and children married to someone who seeks the sexual company of other men while married to you. Think what would happen to future children you might have if she committed adultery in the future. Their lives would be shattered.

Is that what you want to do???

Pray. Pray earnestly. I know God will answer you.


----------



## warlock07

God helps those who helps themselves. The "no child" thing was a sign for you to walk away!!


----------



## Rosemary's Granddaughter

ssap said:


> Also met with a christian counselor today and while no rug sweeping was suggested, I was told that since we had sex before marriage that sent a message that it was ok to do it with other people during marriage.... and that our marriage wasn't hopeless and while I have the right to D that we just need to put Christ as the head of our marriage and things would work out.


What denomination "Christian" counselor?


----------



## OldWolf57

ssap said:


> I was told that since we had sex before marriage that sent a message that it was ok to do it with other people during marriage....
> 
> So now I'm left with two options as I see it.
> 
> 1) Divorce and feel guilty about it the rest of my life
> 
> 2) reconcile and die a little more inside and pray every night she doesn't do this again.
> 
> Great choices.


ss, I've been out of the church for many years, still I have NEVER heard such bs in all my life. Understand this NOW. that is his PERSONAL VIEWPOINT. Not Church leader from any sector has ever spewed such garbage before or ever will. This is a conclusion HE somehow has formed. You should have asked him to show you how the church came to this conclusion. Guarentee he can't.
There has been more damage done by supposed CC then most secular MC.

REPEAT, that is HIS opinion !!! and if he mention it again, ask him what the point of taking vows, and if he has any studies done by the church.

Now I will put this to you. Suicide is a sin, and if R/ing with her means dying a little everyday, how are you living for Him.


----------



## ssap

Thank you all so much.

Patrick1959 - that reading was heavy but my understanding is more along those lines than a more "liberal" church if that is the right word to use. that is why my heart is so heavy, I feel imprisoned.

Rosemary'sGranddaughter - its is non-denominational bible based. not fire and brimstone but not a "feel good" type of church if that means the right thing to you.

I make the above replies with no judgments implied to others denominations so please don't take offense. 

thank you everyone for allowing this conversation to take on a non-secular tone. I feel that I am receiving a balance of opinion here that would be impossible anywhere else and is literally my sanity at times.

I appreciate all of your input. Most is thought out and delivered with care. Thank you.


----------



## JCD

Malaise said:


> What you must determine is this:
> 
> Is she sincere iin her beliefs or does she know just what buttons to push to make you stay with her.
> 
> She comes to having found God again and you think that as a Christian you should take her back into the fold, the stray lamb returning.
> 
> Or is this calculated move by a cold hearted cheater who had sex with OM on your birthday and is cynically using faith against you.
> 
> Don't let your faith blind you to the fact that there those who will use Scripture for their own ends.


This.

Coupled with the convienient panic attacks which turn on and off at the touch of a 911 button, I'd be VERY LEERY about trusting this woman.

She's lied and hid things twice.

How lucky she is! There are thousands of Christian men looking for a nice religious woman. She can try one of them on for size.

As for you...I hesitate to give advice because I see how your faith is pulling you. But you are getting jerked around theologically by these counselors and now your wife.


----------



## ssap

JCD - I appreciate your commitment to this thread and appreciate all of your input.

I am being pulled, kicking and screaming, and want to do the "right" thing but realize that i have to weigh some heavy options.

As sad as it is, I am actually starting to be ok with the thought of not being able to remarry etc. if my faith dictates just to be away from her poison. So sad a thought for someone who has given nothing but love and dedication to not only the 6 years of our marriage but the 6 years of dating before that. Ugh 

I'm praying that time will bring clarity and surety and that i can be at peace with whatever happens.


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## oneMOreguy

...there is really nothing forcing a quick decision on whether R or D is what you should be doing.......take a break for yourself and make sure you make a decision in your best interests. I am a very strong believer in God, and His love, and I do not ever imagine him asking us to sacrifice ourselves in a damaged marriage. Staying in a marriage with this type of issue can only be done if both spouses can really stay committed.....you need to evaluate if she can.


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## JCD

Do you have vacation time?

I would suggest that you take a week off if you can swing it. Just you. Go someplace YOU always wanted to go to which she wasn't particularly inclined. (put it on her credit card, naturally. Not being nasty, but you didn't start this rodeo)

Take some time away from the house, the memories, and twisting in the wind. 

What was it Joseph Cambell said: "Your sacred space is where you can find youself again and again." Batman has his Batcave. You need to find yours.

It's time to go to your sacred space and see who looks back at you without someone's version of God or Wife looking over your shoulder.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

One possibility:

You tell her you forgive her, love her, want to live with her.

(I get that is what you really would like)

Then also tell her you will file for divorce if she can't convince you of being true, remorseful and really changing her life.

Then if you do not get signs of change quickly file for divorce to give her a last chance.

If that doesn't work for her you leave.


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## Machiavelli

ssap said:


> As sad as it is, I am actually starting to be *ok with the thought of not being able to remarry *etc. if my faith dictates just to be away from her poison.


This is absurd. Where did you get an idea you would be unable to remarry? I have an idea, but provide the scripture they gave you and I'll give you many more to put your mind at ease. And contrary to what another poster claimed, this is not some big theological complexity. It's only complex if you don't like what the Bible plainly states. Christ His own self, in fact.


----------



## The bishop

So you have decided to stay married to a serial cheater, manipulator, who is willing to hurt the ones closest to her becasue you can't remarry.... Wow.... It isn't just your WW who is manipulating you. Jesus does not equal religion.... Religion is man made


----------



## Kasler

The bishop said:


> So you have decided to stay married to a serial cheater, manipulator, who is willing to hurt the ones closest to her becasue you can't remarry.... Wow.... It isn't just your WW who is manipulating you. Jesus does not equal religion.... Religion is man made


Look you may disagree with his religious views but please respect them or don't post. 

I've seen more than one poster chased off because people were being too crass about his/her faith.


----------



## Chaparral

Wheter os not you decide to R or divorce, you need counseling. And especially counseling with a counselor that has training with PTSD. Good luck and prayers. 

If you divorce because of adultery, you can remarry, not sure about the adulterer though.


----------



## ssap

oneMOreguy & JCD – I have been thinking about a one man vacation so your words are spot on. 

Machiavelli – I was working off of the understanding that even though I am able to divorce, that even as God divorced Israel he never gave writ and is still in separation so if I follow that there doesn’t seem to be any executed divorces in the Bible that I would rather live in separation, excluding me from remarrying, instead of reconciling at this point 

I am treading into deeper water than I am comfortable with though so please forgive me if I misspoke. I am still studying and looking for understanding.

I am not trying to dramatize this scenario, I realize I am not Hosea or Joseph , but want to try to gain full understanding of the choice I make because it is forever and as my faith and understanding grows I don’t want to wake up one day in a panic and feel like I’ve betrayed myself/ my faith.

The Bishop- I have not decided to stay married to her.

thank you all for your continued input, I know at one point it will begin to feel like you are beating a dead horse (me) but I contemplate each of your points constantly.


----------



## Malaise

ssap

I won't pretend to be a Biblical scholar. I can't quote chapter and verse.

God the Father as depicted in the Old Testament was a real wrathful god. Fire and brimstone. Smiting. You get the picture. 

Whereas his Son was more mellow, loving and forgiving.

I can't beleive the Son would want you to spend the rest of your life alone and childless because of the sins of your wife.

I beleive that you can forgive her and yet not stay married, and be at peace with God.

Take that as you will. Don't let her betrayal of your vows force you into a life of misery. Don't martyr youself because of her misdeeds.


----------



## Hicks

Your are being manipulated.


----------



## ssap

Thank you Malaise, that is a nice way to think about it.


----------



## Machiavelli

ssap said:


> Machiavelli – I was working off of the understanding that even though I am able to divorce, that *even as God divorced Israel he never gave writ and is still in separation* so if I follow that there doesn’t seem to be any executed divorces in the Bible that I would rather live in separation, excluding me from remarrying, instead of reconciling at this point


I sent you a PM giving you chapter and verse that God did in fact divorce his cheating "wife" Israel and reconciled with his other cheating "wife" Judah. I've heard that claim before, but it doesn't match with the scripture. Contortions must be performed. I also point out in the PM that the culture of the Hebrews and life under the Mosaic Law was much different that the pagan Greco-Roman world of the much later so-called Church Fathers. Christ specifically condones replacing an adulterous wife in Matt 19:9.


----------



## ssap

Thank you Machiavelli - I replied to your PM.

It truly is amazing how much there is about divorce in the Bible. To understand the whole concept succinctly is a challenge for my small brain.


----------



## Rosemary's Granddaughter

ssap said:


> Rosemary'sGranddaughter - its is non-denominational bible based. not fire and brimstone but not a "feel good" type of church if that means the right thing to you.


I think you should report this counselor to whomever is his supervisor. His statement is not only wrong, it is completely fabricated. I'd like to-facetiously- ask him what else he imagines that premarital sex implies, once within the marriage. Copulation with animals?


----------



## indiecat

God is Love, I can't see that He would be pleased with you living a lonely life because your former wife could not be true. My h cheated once, and we may reconcile, but if he ever did it again I would never, ever reconcile. I would accept that there is something wrong with him and I would NOT be his parole officer for the rest of my life.


----------



## Wazza

Machiavelli said:


> I sent you a PM giving you chapter and verse that God did in fact divorce his cheating "wife" Israel and reconciled with his other cheating "wife" Judah. I've heard that claim before, but it doesn't match with the scripture. Contortions must be performed. I also point out in the PM that the culture of the Hebrews and life under the Mosaic Law was much different that the pagan Greco-Roman world of the much later so-called Church Fathers. Christ specifically condones replacing an adulterous wife in Matt 19:9.


This is a side of you I would never have anticipated from your posts in other threads. An interesting person indeed!

I would be interested to see that verse as well. Is there a reason you cannot post it in the thread?


----------



## Wazza

ssap said:


> oneMOreguy & JCD – I have been thinking about a one man vacation so your words are spot on.
> 
> Machiavelli – I was working off of the understanding that even though I am able to divorce, that even as God divorced Israel he never gave writ and is still in separation so if I follow that there doesn’t seem to be any executed divorces in the Bible that I would rather live in separation, excluding me from remarrying, instead of reconciling at this point
> 
> I am treading into deeper water than I am comfortable with though so please forgive me if I misspoke. I am still studying and looking for understanding.
> 
> I am not trying to dramatize this scenario, I realize I am not Hosea or Joseph , but want to try to gain full understanding of the choice I make because it is forever and as my faith and understanding grows I don’t want to wake up one day in a panic and feel like I’ve betrayed myself/ my faith.
> 
> The Bishop- I have not decided to stay married to her.
> 
> thank you all for your continued input, I know at one point it will begin to feel like you are beating a dead horse (me) but I contemplate each of your points constantly.


I wonder if you are making too much of this. The way I see it, if there is adultery, you are allowed to divorce. If you are divorced, you are allowed to remarry.

This doesn't mean you shouldn't reconcile. But it means you don't have to. You do have to seek to forgive, but you can forgive without reconciliation.

God's plan for us included a means of reconciliation, at the cross. He is not in separation from Israel as I see it, we are reconciled. And our reconciliation requires genuine repentance on our part.

Asking this as a genuine question, not a rhetorical one - how will you know that your wife's repentance from her affair is genuine? God sees our hearts. How will you see hers?


----------



## ssap

Rosemary's granddaughter- He is more than just a counselor, I have decided to actually go to him again just to see if he really understood what he said. I have to hear this again and get him to fully explain this.


Wazza - I may be making too much of it. but I want to make sure I am not. 

as to genuine repentance... I may never truly know but look to her actions, actions when she thinks no one is looking, and not her words.

as an example,
early on when she came back from me asking her to leave, I asked her what the most important action was at this point. either seeking info to reconcile, faith etc. or working on job stuff (since we now have a financial crisis to boot.)
She said, reconcile and faith, so again I asked if that was true then how many hours of the day should she commit to each if she had 3 hours for one task and 6 hours for the other.
She said 6 for reconcile/faith and 3 for work seeking.
This is when I told her that her computer history showed she had done just the opposite and what message did that send to me?

she spent the next 3 days on the reconcile/faith part but doing so after the fact makes it hard to know how genuine it is.


----------



## Wazza

ssap said:


> Wazza - I may be making too much of it. but I want to make sure I am not.
> 
> as to genuine repentance... I may never truly know but look to her actions, actions when she thinks no one is looking, and not her words.
> 
> as an example,
> early on when she came back from me asking her to leave, I asked her what the most important action was at this point. either seeking info to reconcile, faith etc. or working on job stuff (since we now have a financial crisis to boot.)
> She said, reconcile and faith, so again I asked if that was true then how many hours of the day should she commit to each if she had 3 hours for one task and 6 hours for the other.
> She said 6 for reconcile/faith and 3 for work seeking.
> This is when I told her that her computer history showed she had done just the opposite and what message did that send to me?
> 
> she spent the next 3 days on the reconcile/faith part but doing so after the fact makes it hard to know how genuine it is.


The thing is, you have to ask why God gave permission to divorce in the event of infidelity. My belief is that, having created us and knowing all our thoughts, God is incredibly practical and doesn't ask the impossible of us. For example, read Acts 15, esp v 19.

Your marriage will NEVER be the same again. NEVER. It may be better if you can rebuild....I think mine is...but in the back of my head there is always that little hurt, that little doubt. And sometimes it will come out. For example, we will start to make love, I will do something, think "Oh...he did that" and freeze. 22 years out...it still happens sometimes.

You need to count the cost before you recommit.

I make no judgement about what is in your wife's heart. I don't know, none of us do. First, her repentance before God has to be genuine, and there is reason to question that. Next, she has to stick with it and not fall away. 

I guess the most I would do in your shoes is a stay of proceedings while you have counselling and see if you can find a basis to reconcile.

For me, once I gave my word I was going to reconcile, I think that would be a new vow and I would feel bound by it. So I wouldn't do it unless I was sure.


----------



## TDSC60

ssap said:


> Rosemary's granddaughter- He is more than just a counselor, I have decided to actually go to him again just to see if he really understood what he said. I have to hear this again and get him to fully explain this.
> 
> 
> Wazza - I may be making too much of it. but I want to make sure I am not.
> 
> as to genuine repentance... I may never truly know but look to her actions, actions when she thinks no one is looking, and not her words.
> 
> as an example,
> early on when she came back from me asking her to leave, I asked her what the most important action was at this point. either seeking info to reconcile, faith etc. or working on job stuff (since we now have a financial crisis to boot.)
> She said, reconcile and faith, so again I asked if that was true then how many hours of the day should she commit to each if she had 3 hours for one task and 6 hours for the other.
> She said 6 for reconcile/faith and 3 for work seeking.
> This is when I told her that her computer history showed she had done just the opposite and what message did that send to me?
> 
> she spent the next 3 days on the reconcile/faith part but doing so after the fact makes it hard to know how genuine it is.


You have a lot to consider and a hard decision to make.

Internet history statistics - really? You do not appear to be that closed minded.

Search for job - yeah, almost a requirement to use the internet these days.

Faith - has nothing to do with the internet and frankly, the internet is the last place I would go for that.

Reconcile - internet is a maybe. You can find some good info but you can also find mountains of conflicting advice/information. Plus you really need time to read and process. Time spent with you is working on reconciliation as is talking to a counselor/priest.

So her efforts appear to be genuine (you can never really be sure). Her making a conscious effort to change her "internet history" to appease you shows at least the intent of trying.

Statistics can be a good planning tool IF the sample pool is large enough, they can be very misleading and used as a manipulation tool if not. Do not fall into that trap.


----------



## dogman

ssap said:


> oneMOreguy & JCD – I have been thinking about a one man vacation so your words are spot on.
> 
> Machiavelli – I was working off of the understanding that even though I am able to divorce, that even as God divorced Israel he never gave writ and is still in separation so if I follow that there doesn’t seem to be any executed divorces in the Bible that I would rather live in separation, excluding me from remarrying, instead of reconciling at this point
> 
> I am treading into deeper water than I am comfortable with though so please forgive me if I misspoke. I am still studying and looking for understanding.
> 
> I am not trying to dramatize this scenario, I realize I am not Hosea or Joseph , but want to try to gain full understanding of the choice I make because it is forever and as my faith and understanding grows I don’t want to wake up one day in a panic and feel like I’ve betrayed myself/ my faith.
> 
> The Bishop- I have not decided to stay married to her.
> 
> thank you all for your continued input, I know at one point it will begin to feel like you are beating a dead horse (me) but I contemplate each of your points constantly.



So are you ok with never having sex again if you separate and don't divorce. Separated is still married therefore relations with anyone but your wife is adultery.
Reconcile or divorce, those are the options.


----------



## Machiavelli

Wazza said:


> This is a side of you I would never have anticipated from your posts in other threads. An interesting person indeed!
> 
> I would be interested to see that verse as well. Is there a reason you cannot post it in the thread?


I didn't post the scripture as I'm not sure how effective such a discussion would be here. Here is it is: 

I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. -- Jer. 3:8

Of course most of the prophetic and historical books in the OT are harping on these issues, culminating in the "divorce" and subsequent obliteration of the 10 "lost tribes" i.e. the Northern Kingdom AKA "Israel."

Once the Platonists, Neo-platonists, Manicheans, and other pagan groups with ascetic views on sexuality began to flood into the church and swamp the ethnic Jews and their biblical views on the subject, major spin had to be employed on the scriptures. It still continues today. Biblical sexuality is completely at odds with our modern culture due to the dominance of Greco-Roman ideas combined with feminism.

Sorry for the t/j.


----------



## Machiavelli

dogman said:


> So are you ok with never having sex again if you separate and don't divorce. Separated is still married therefore relations with anyone but your wife is adultery.
> Reconcile or divorce, those are the options.


Depends on if he takes the biblical view or the Churchian view. He's definitely getting the Churchian spin in big doses. The biblical definition of "adultery" is given in Lev. 20:10. Notice that's a crime against the husband perpetrated by the WW and OM. Later, in the NT, Christ indicates divorcing and replacing a wife in the absence of sexual sin on her part equates to adultery and this is the first we see of adultery as a sin a man commits against his wife. It's not physical, though. 

Prior to about 1850, most legal definitions of adultery was as in Lev.20:10, strictly a function of the woman's marital status. The rise of the women's movement in the 1840's started changing that law. Also, the anti-sex Neo-platonic influenced so-called church father Jerome had some very odd ideas about what consisted adultery, including the idea that enjoying sex with your wife equaled adultery.


----------



## ssap

TDSC60 – your response leads me to believe that I probably didn’t provide the right kind of information. I was just giving an example of one day,early into this, where she spent her whole day on the computer and I was using the time she allocated to the two tasks as a proxy for what she viewed as more important. 
It is not my only basis at all times and I haven’t looked since. Just this one day.
I wasn’t upset that she was online, just the focus that time seemed to have.
The sample for this experiment was just one day.
I guess the emotion I was trying to portray was that compared to my day, where I spent my whole day seeking affair and counseling information and scripture, sermons about marriage. I saw the focus of her efforts not in line with my own. 
Hopefully I’ve cleared this up a bit as I agree with you points and think my descriptions may not be conveying my intent.


Dogman – No I am not okay with that idea. I was making a statement that, at this point, I would consider it over reconciliation. I fully understand the implications of remaining married but not reconciling. Again, I am not leaning this way, it was just a vent of my desperation for the situation.


----------



## bandit.45

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

SSAP ask your in-laws to pay for a couple ic sessions for ww.


----------



## Wazza

Machiavelli said:


> Depends on if he takes the biblical view or the Churchian view. He's definitely getting the Churchian spin in big doses. The biblical definition of "adultery" is given in Lev. 20:10. Notice that's a crime against the husband perpetrated by the WW and OM. Later, in the NT, Christ indicates divorcing and replacing a wife in the absence of sexual sin on her part equates to adultery and this is the first we see of adultery as a sin a man commits against his wife. *It's not physical, though. *
> 
> Prior to about 1850, most legal definitions of adultery was as in Lev.20:10, strictly a function of the woman's marital status. The rise of the women's movement in the 1840's started changing that law. Also, the anti-sex Neo-platonic influenced so-called church father Jerome had some very odd ideas about what consisted adultery, including the idea that enjoying sex with your wife equaled adultery.


?


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Let your belief save you.Amen........


----------



## badbane

MAtthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery," (Matt. 19:9). The word in Greek for immorality is porneia from which we get the word pornography. Sexual immorality, i.e., adultery, is a grounds for divorce according to Jesus.

(What Does the Bible Teach About Divorce? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry)

Guess what brother she was sexually immoral. That would be every time she has sex with another man. So yes four counts of sexual immorality would pretty much say that you are off the hook if you remarry. 

BTW I really dislike people that try to use the bible as a tool of manipulation. I am speaking about your wife. not you my friend.


----------



## gpa

badbane said:


> MAtthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery," (Matt. 19:9). The word in Greek for immorality is porneia from which we get the word pornography. Sexual immorality, i.e., adultery, is a grounds for divorce according to Jesus.
> 
> Guess what brother she was sexually immoral. That would be every time she has sex with another man. So yes four counts of sexual immorality would pretty much say that you are off the hook if you remarry.


 Well. Not exactly but anyways not far from the truth.

Immorality in Greek eqyals to another greek in origin word y also use which is unethical. Un + ethical means without ethos (equals without morrals).

Porneia actually means prostitution thus the illegal behavior of a woman or a man who provides paid sex. The certain behavior is unethical/immoral in the religion segment but not always in the legislation field where porneia/prostitution is controlled by the law.

And yes i agree by every definition adultery is a sexual immorality it is an unethical behavior. But it isn't porneia.

And finally pornography comes not exactly from porneia, but fron the greek word pornographia which comes from porni (female hooker)+graphein (writting down)+ia and actually means the written descritpion or illustration of a porni (female hooker) on the job.

As Greece is sinking real fast in the abyss (another greek word) right now, it is quite promissing to see a lot of people all over the world using and studying greek wording.


----------



## Wazza

gpa said:


> Well. Not exactly but anyways not far from the truth.
> 
> Immorality in Greek eqyals to another greek in origin word y also use which is unethical. Un + ethical means without ethos (equals without morrals).
> 
> Porneia actually means prostitution thus the illegal behavior of a woman or a man who provides paid sex. The certain behavior is unethical/immoral in the religion segment but not always in the legislation field where porneia/prostitution is controlled by the law.
> 
> And yes i agree by every definition adultery is a sexual immorality it is an unethical behavior. But it isn't porneia.
> 
> And finally pornography comes not exactly from porneia, but fron the greek word pornographia which comes from porni (female hooker)+graphein (writting down)+ia and actually means the written descritpion or illustration of a porni (female hooker) on the job.
> 
> As Greece is sinking real fast in the abyss (another greek word) right now, it is quite promissing to see a lot of people all over the world using and studying greek wording.


I'm not a greek speaker, but keep in mind the new testament was written almost 2,000 years ago in a non-Classical dialect (koine). The meanings of some words may have evolved in that time. 

My son, who reads new testament greek, believes porneia translates as sexual immorality in new testament greek.

Wikipedia advises there is some dispute as to how the word should be translated.

Fornication - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry about the detail...but given OP is considering whether divorce is an option on the basis of what the bible says, this would seem to be important.


----------



## gpa

Wazza said:


> I'm not a greek speaker, but keep in mind the new testament was written almost 2,000 years ago in a non-Classical dialect (koine). The meanings of some words may have evolved in that time.
> 
> My son, who reads new testament greek, believes porneia translates as sexual immorality in new testament greek.
> 
> Wikipedia advises there is some dispute as to how the word should be translated.
> 
> Fornication - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Sorry about the detail...but given OP is considering whether divorce is an option on the basis of what the bible says, this would seem to be important.


Believe me i am a lawyer myself and i can assure y that i have a deep knowledge of my language both ancient as well as modern greeks. This is the reason i made the above clarification.
And i also explained that porneia (prostitution) from the religion point of view is an unethical behavior.

Now adultery which stands for the greek and biblical word mechia (pron. μοιχεία in greek) is what y r looking for.
Porni was used as an insulting word to every wife commiting adultery (mechia) to her husband. But that is not the meaning of porneia. In new testament y will find for the unfaithful wife the word mechalis (pron. μοιχαλίδα in greek) which stands for our case.

Finally i am well aware what OP is looking for. This is the reason that i already commented that adultery is an immorality against marriage and as such OP has strong grounds for divorce even on Bible basis. But also in new testament y will find that when the crowd attacked in front of Jesus the prostitute (hooker - porni) with stones in order to punish her to death, Jesus stopped them saying "the one among y who is free of any sins has to be the first to throw the stone to this woman", teaching to all of us that we all have sins and we must have the power to forgive. By that i don't mean that OP is not able to divorce. Forgivenes may still exist even with a divorce.


----------



## JCD

Could we have a *REALLY LONG AND TEDIOUS DISCUSSION* on the differences in the conjugation of Greek Verbs in the 1st and 12th century Anno Domini? Please?

It's _ever_ so much more useful then the fact that ssap is being a frigging martyr/idiot with regard to his marriage and on the cusp of screwing up his life and mental health due to poor interpretations of his FAITH.

Ssap. Get over yourself. You are being an idiot and need more counseling...from someone who who doesn't necessarily see EVERYTHING through a Christ Lens. Your faith will help you, just not with the advice from the twits you seem to be consulting.


----------



## Machiavelli

Wazza said:


> ?


The male who divorces a wife without proper cause and replaces her with commits adultery against the wife, but it's not the physical act of sex that constitutes adultery under that circumstance. In that time, a man could only commit adultery with another man's wife. If the woman was not married, it wasn't adultery no matter what the man's status was. After all, adultery is the adulteration of a man's lineage. A woman's lineage can not be adulterated, which is why the rabbis trace lineage through the mother. They reason that nobody can really know for sure who the father of a given person is.

Since adultery/cuckolding is the ultimate betrayal for a man, Christ is equating a man throwing out his wife for frivolous reasons and replacing her with someone more appealing with adultery and saying it's the ultimate betrayal of the woman.

Men had a lot of sexual freedom until fairly recently.


----------



## Machiavelli

gpa said:


> Well. Not exactly but anyways not far from the truth.
> 
> Immorality in Greek eqyals to another greek in origin word y also use which is unethical. Un + ethical means without ethos (equals without morrals).
> 
> Porneia actually means prostitution thus the illegal behavior of a woman or a man who provides paid sex.


In secular Greek "porneia" does mean prostitution, both the ordinary kind and the religious kind (Temple of Venus, etc). Also, prostitution was totally legal in the 1st century.

However, in the NT and Jewish writings of the time the word "porneia" isn't referring to prostitution, but is used as a basket term for the capital sexual offenses listed in Leviticus 20: adultery, incest, male homosexuality, male bestiality, female bestiality. Most interestingly, prostitution itself (the original meaning of "porneia") is not part of the list.

That's the reason why "sexual immorality" is used as the translation from "porneia."




gpa said:


> The certain behavior is unethical/immoral in the religion segment but not always in the legislation field where porneia/prostitution is controlled by the law.
> 
> And yes i agree by every definition adultery is a sexual immorality it is an unethical behavior. But it isn't porneia.


It meant that, and the rest of the sex crime list, to the Jews writing in Greek in the 1st century.



gpa said:


> And finally pornography comes not exactly from porneia, but fron the greek word pornographia which comes from porni (female hooker)+graphein (writting down)+ia and actually means the written descritpion or illustration of a porni (female hooker) on the job.
> 
> As Greece is sinking real fast in the abyss (another greek word) right now, it is quite promissing to see a lot of people all over the world using and studying greek wording.


Correct on pornography. As for Greece going down, they've been down since 1453.


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## Machiavelli

Wazza said:


> My son, who reads new testament greek, believes porneia translates as sexual immorality in new testament greek.
> 
> Wikipedia advises there is some dispute as to how the word should be translated.
> 
> Fornication - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Your son is correct. Just as an aside, I've always found it interesting that "fornication", in its modern English usage as sex between two unmarried people, is not prohibited in the Law of Moses and is thusly not included in the NT usage of "porneia/fornication."


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## hope4family

Wow, I question this womans Christianity and commitment to any God at this point. 

Sass, religiously, you do right by taking her back. But you do no wrong divorcing. This is a time a Christian man should look himself in the mirror and say. What would I tell another Godly man to do? Apply this advice to yourself. There is no easy choice my friend.


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## ssap

Ok im back. after quite some time. 

I want to start by saying thank you to everyone that helped me on this journey. through each of you, TAM gave me a constructive framework in which to evaluate a very chaotic time in my life and for that i am ever grateful. 

It has been roughly a year and a half since this began and just yesterday i was promted by a member of TAM to give an update which i am glad to do. ironically, it was on the same day i met my estranged spouse to have a discussion on the type of divorce she would agree to court/no court etc.

In short, it has been a long road. I stayed at the house until August 2013 to see if we could reconcile and to give God time to work in our lives. After 8 months, i felt that i had come to the end of that journey (after some dark times internally) and decided to move out and tell her that i intended to file for divorce. i have been out of the house since Aug 2013 and we talk every now and then as well as share "custody" of our dog. She very much wants to be reconciled and has turned her life around and has found her salvation for which i am happy for her. she has shown to me her genuine intent to restore the marriage to its fullest but in all my faults i lack the capacity to do so. she knows that i have the personality that i will fight for something i want to the end but when i am done, i am done. both of our lives have been tough since those times and i have a lot of sympathy and respect for her. i wish her well and do still admire all the things that drew me to her more than 10 years ago. those feelings and memories won't be lost. 

I am in the process of rebuilding both mentally and financially. taking the advice of TAM. I focused my energy on constructive things like working out and the hobbies and people i enjoy. i moved about a half hour away and closer to work and have surrounded myself around new people. I have lots of little stories of things that happened along the way that are just small details probably not writing on but some have helped in big ways. At this stage, i am heathly, doing very well in my career, have friends around me, and am looking toward the future.

thank you all again. i'm sorry i took so long to provide an update.


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## WhiteRaven

Sometimes, the best way is the highway. Stand strong, ssap.


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## snerg

ssap said:


> At this stage, i am healthy, doing very well in my career, have friends around me, and am looking toward the future.


You sound like you're now getting to a good spot.

Question - Are you happy?

If yes - then you have chosen wisely!


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

I can't say that I'm surprised ssap. When you last posted here, I got the feeling that you wouldn't be able to live with "it" for long. I commend you for trying though.

You're stbxw(and you) seemed to have a lot going for her and yet she chose to be unfaithful to you. We see a lot of BS's here that have a laundry list of external factors that were likely contributing factors to the bad choices taht their WS's made in cheating on them. Things I didn't see in your situation...

Could she ever really explain to you why she would risk throwing it all away for a half a dozen sex sessions in the back of your new truck?

I'm sorry for being so blunt with such a painful subject. Please forgive me this, but I truly would like to know if she said why.


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## thummper

God bless you, ssap. You'll always know you gave it your best shot, but sometimes things don't work out the way you want them to. Peace, brother. I hope that you find happiness, perhaps with someone else who can love you for who you are and always remain faithful to you.


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## manticore

SSAP, I just read your whole story, you did the right thing, I know you wanto to believe you STBXW has changed but the truth is that she probably is just represing herself to get you back, serial cheaters don't cure themeselves by reading the bibble. The very very few cases that I have heard that have redemmed themselves is after years of therapy and even support groups, their constant need of validation make their bahaviour similar to that of an addict.

You were ready to give up so many things for her, your savings, the gift of fatherhood, you even give her a second chance and you were given in return betrayal and pain, don't feel bad about your decission to leave, you deserve to be happy with someone as commited as you, who put the same value in the bond of fidelity.

are you dating already?, 7 months of separation is good break, you need to put yourself out there to replace the bad memmories with good ones, the faster you get someone special the faster you will be able to finally leave this part of your life behind.


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## warlock07

> This is not her first time doing this to me.


Good decision in the end.


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## JCD

I did not like that you characterized the failure of your marriage as an issue of YOUR faults.

No doubt you have your faults, but the fact you are not physically or psychically able to row back to shore from a rowboat in the middle of the Infidelity Ocean WHERE SHE PUT YOU isn't 'your fault'.

And you seemed to spend 8 months trying. That is far more than many people attempt.

So walk away with your head held high from this.


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## ssap

thanks everyone.

snerg - I am happy and feel like i made the right choice. i still have my days where i lament over the loss of a marriage i put so much into but its not a feeling of wanting to be with her... just the loss of the marriage and life i worked so hard for.

GROUNDPOUNDER - i could never get a solid explanation from her... do any of us ever get a satisfactory answer? There was no answer for the general behaviour of infidelity, just causal answers for each occurence.

manticore- i'm touched you read the whole story, thank you for your time and opinion. i am not dating at this stage.... i'm also not looking for casual relationships either, i'm so programmed to be with one person i don't find the thought of it appealing, at least my logical brain ha ha


JCD - i am prone to a small amount of self-deprecation in an attempt of humility. I do accept some fault. maybe if i had led the marriage in a stricter biblical sense it could have helped or taken other steps... not sure but i don't blame myself for what happened. I know she made her choices due to a fault within her not me.

thanks again everyone... it really feels good being back here and having some type of closure to talk about


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## ssap

So..... one last twist in this saga.

the divorce was final in July 2014.... yesterday i find out she is 6 months pregnant. not mine.

i really can't comprehend all the twists this drama took. incredible.. you can't make this stuff up.


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## tom67

ssap said:


> So..... one last twist in this saga.
> 
> the divorce was final in July 2014.... yesterday i find out she is 6 months pregnant. not mine.
> 
> i really can't comprehend all the twists this drama took. incredible.. you can't make this stuff up.


Well it's good that it's not your problem anymore.
Wonder if it is that same guy she cheated with.
You should be breathing a sigh of relief my friend.


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## ssap

no its a new guy.... 

i am relieved and it sure did cleared up any questions about her "reform"


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## tom67

ssap said:


> no its a new guy....
> 
> i am relieved and it sure did cleared up any questions about her "reform"


:iagree:
She is messed up oh well.
I almost feel sorry for the other guy.Almost


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## GusPolinski

ssap said:


> So..... one last twist in this saga.
> 
> the divorce was final in July 2014.... yesterday i find out she is 6 months pregnant. not mine.
> 
> i really can't comprehend all the twists this drama took. incredible.. you can't make this stuff up.


Well, that would mean that she got knocked up right around the time that you posted an update back in March. I guess she wasn't so serious about wanting to reconcile after all.


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## ssap

yes it seems to be the case. 

i am happy she gets to have a child... that was a big deal to her and thought it would never happen... didn't see it going this route but i don't have any emotion tied up into it... i divorced her for a reason but i wish her well.


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## Almostrecovered

be glad she was keeping the pregnancy secret, some states will not allow divorce when the wife is pregnant (archaic law)


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## ssap

excellent point.


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## Gabriel

GusPolinski said:


> Well, that would mean that she got knocked up right around the time that you posted an update back in March. I guess she wasn't so serious about wanting to reconcile after all.


My thoughts exactly. Maybe the guy hit it and ran, and this is why she tried crawling back to her STBXH.

Just think, he could have been tricked. If he fell for it, she could have had sex with him and he'd think the baby was his.


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## ssap

that's hard to wrap my head around. but i know its been done.

no. it seems the dude is in the picture... i'm sure it was a big surprise to both of them since she thought she couldn't get pregnant... i bet that was an interesting conversation... lol


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## Gabriel

ssap said:


> that's hard to wrap my head around. but i know its been done.
> 
> no. it seems the dude is in the picture... i'm sure it was a big surprise to both of them since she thought she couldn't get pregnant... i bet that was an interesting conversation... lol


This happens a lot. A couple tries to conceive, goes through fertility treatments, etc. Then give up. And when they aren't even trying, they get pregnant with no help. It's a strange phenomenon, but one I've seen several times just with people I'm friends with.


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## michzz

So glad you finally walked away from her!

Now try to stop renting head space to her going forward.


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## ssap

i think that means don't think about her... i do every now and then. very happy with a wonderful girlfriend etc. so it doesn't claim much of my time these days.

I do look back and it still seems like some kind of crazy reverse lifetime movie or something..


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## Gabriel

ssap said:


> i think that means don't think about her... i do every now and then. very happy with a wonderful girlfriend etc. so it doesn't claim much of my time these days.
> 
> I do look back and it still seems like some kind of crazy reverse lifetime movie or something..


I would think a wonderful girlfriend would fix just about everything. Good for you.


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## ssap

she does indeed. and even makes better things that arent wrong


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## Sports Fan

Just be glad you have dodged a major bullet in the child, in which she was probably hoping to decieve you into believing its yours.

As far as low goes she is bottom of the barrell. I hope you are doing well for yourself now.


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## happyman64

ssap

Thanks for updating us and letting us know how you are doing.

Glad your GF is working for you and that you acknowledge that your Ex is as crazy as ever.

Thankfully not your problem anymore.

Live long and prosper.

HM


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## tom67

Live long and prosper.

Okay Spok


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## Toffer

Run
Don't look back
You can't fight this
Good luck


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## txderbydad

EDIT: Doh! Total noob move on my part! I didn't realize this thread was from 2 years ago!

Your story is very similar to mine. I am so sorry for what you are going through. I'm two months in and filed for divorce yesterday because it was clear after a month of couples therapy that my wife has no intention of saving/salvaging our marriage. She is living in a fantasy land where she has started to rewrite large portions of our history and telling outright lies. 

You will be reeling for a while. I can only tell you that it does eventually get better; it all depends on how you and your wife proceed. Trust can be rebuilt if you both want to. Unfortunately, in my case, my wife has no interest in rebuilding trust and so I have finally had enough and filed for divorce. She's done too much damage, and continued to do damage for there to be anything left to save, unfortunately.


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## GusPolinski

txderbydad said:


> EDIT: Doh! Total noob move on my part! I didn't realize this thread was from 2 years ago!
> 
> Your story is very similar to mine. I am so sorry for what you are going through. I'm two months in and filed for divorce yesterday because it was clear after a month of couples therapy that my wife has no intention of saving/salvaging our marriage. She is living in a fantasy land where she has started to rewrite large portions of our history and telling outright lies.
> 
> You will be reeling for a while. I can only tell you that it does eventually get better; it all depends on how you and your wife proceed. Trust can be rebuilt if you both want to. Unfortunately, in my case, my wife has no interest in rebuilding trust and so I have finally had enough and filed for divorce. She's done too much damage, and continued to do damage for there to be anything left to save, unfortunately.


You may not believe this, but if you've gotten to the point where you're ready to divest yourself of your WW's bullsh*t and have filed for divorce after only a couple of months (since D-Day), then you're actually doing pretty well.


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## txderbydad

GusPolinski said:


> You may not believe this, but if you've gotten to the point where you're ready to divest yourself of your WW's bullsh*t and have filed for divorce after only a couple of months (since D-Day), then you're actually doing pretty well.


That is really hard to believe. It has been the longest, most painful two months of my life. There has been a calm since filing, but I have these moments of sheer panic and terror. I feel like I'm the only one who knows what has been lost/about to be permanently severed, and I just weep.


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## GusPolinski

txderbydad said:


> That is really hard to believe. It has been the longest, most painful two months of my life. There has been a calm since filing, but I have these moments of sheer panic and terror. I feel like I'm the only one who knows what has been lost/about to be permanently severed, and I just weep.


Between yourself and your WW, you may very well be the only one of the two of you w/ a true appreciation for what's about to go down, but just know that there are many here that have lived through -- and are intimately familiar with -- the pain and devastation w/ which you're currently dealing.

Take some time and post your own thread. Tell your story, and we'll do our best to help you through it.


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