# Joint debt causing hell. Help!



## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Hi everyone,

It's been about a year of fighting and my ex-wife finally signed the agreement for divorce. In sum basically I keep the house and we don't have to pay each other anything. I cover the legal fees. It's a bad deal for both of us but it is slightly in my favor. 

There is a wrench in all of this though and I don't know what to do. 

After the petition date, pretty much right after she left she took $18,000 from a joint line of credit. I never thought she would steal otherwise I would have closed it. When I found out I had the account ceased asap so she couldn't take anymore money. The courts in Canada cannot interfere with a contract made between parties and banks, unless I sue her, which could be very costly.

I am going through a consumer proposal at the moment. It's basically like a light bankruptcy. They cleared all my debts, except the joint account because they can't touch it. The ex-wife has been doing the minimum payments, which is not realy sustainable. I'm talking like $50 per month on an $18,000 line of credit at 5% interest. If you do the math you'll know at that rate it won't ever be paid off. I don't know what to do. I might have to pay it off. Right now it's the only tie between us left. It's stressing me out. My family is stressed too and they constantly bring it up every time I go over there. They want to pay it off for me and then I just owe them, but that doesn't seem fair at all. 

Anybody ever been through this? Any ideas? I thought of some very evil things to do that could basically stop her from making her payments, but well, I am not a bad guy, despite the outrage I feel.


----------



## Sammy64 (Oct 28, 2013)

Are you going to keep the house? After my divorce was final, i sold my house and paid everything off, both personal and community debt that i took over..


----------



## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

I don't know. 

Going through the consumer proposal, I am not even sure I would qualify for a mortgage renewal. I might have to sell it. 

It's a great place although it was a lemon at first and due to market fluctuations it wasn't worth what we paid for it. Huge lot. 2 storey house. Great potential if the backyard were finished and a garage were built. Some flooding issues but I fixed most of them. I can afford the place alone, but I am renting a couple rooms out for some extra money. I'd like to live alone again. I'm tired of renters. I'd like a house, but I am tired of the upkeep and all of the associated costs. If I do rent, it will be somewhere fancy or I will probably end up buying or renting a condo. I don't look forward to that idea, because I hate apartments and I like to play loud music, but I might have no choice. 

I don't think I will be able to profit from the place. The market changed so much.


----------



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

If you already signed stuff separating, isn't that criminal?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Why would you want to stop her from making payments? 

I don't understand how that would help you? 

Besides - while what you say is technically true - it's not balanced. 

You have a significant amount of home equity yes? This was your wife's way of 'taking' close to her half of the home equity. 

Obviously that wasn't very nice. But then she isn't very nice. 

Are you truly looking to resolve this so you can get on with your life? Or are you instead looking to use this as the 'basis' for forcing communication with her? 

If the former, you are resourceful enough to determine some sort of resolution. If the latter, then you don't really WANT a resolution. 

If it was me, I'd offer this thru an intermediary: she pays off half and in return I sign a document that says I will never ever ever never try to contact her again. 






pragmaster said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> It's been about a year of fighting and my ex-wife finally signed the agreement for divorce. In sum basically I keep the house and we don't have to pay each other anything. I cover the legal fees. It's a bad deal for both of us but it is slightly in my favor.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I don't understand either. Why would you want to stop her from making payments? If she is paying, even if she is only making the minimum payments and the account is a joint one, at least that helps you re-establish your credit. If she is paying, even if it only the minimum she is at least accepting her responsibility for the debt, why would your family want to pay it off so that YOU can pay them. Let HER pay the bank just like she is doing. I don't understand why you would want to assume the responsibility.
Like MEM said, you seem to be looking for revenge or at least some leverage to extract your pound of flesh from her for what she has done. The best thing you can do for yourself is to just let it go. Nothing you do, nothing you say will change her or the past. Get on with your life and let it go!


----------



## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

Why wasn't this handled by your lawyer as part of the dissolution process? You can update your financial disclosure during separation and you could have requested a split that accommodated what she took.

Do you still have a lawyer?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ynot,

The interest alone on the debt is $900/year

She's only paying $600. At that rate the debt will slowly grow.




Ynot said:


> I don't understand either. Why would you want to stop her from making payments? If she is paying, even if she is only making the minimum payments and the account is a joint one, at least that helps you re-establish your credit. If she is paying, even if it only the minimum she is at least accepting her responsibility for the debt, why would your family want to pay it off so that YOU can pay them. Let HER pay the bank just like she is doing. I don't understand why you would want to assume the responsibility.
> Like MEM said, you seem to be looking for revenge or at least some leverage to extract your pound of flesh from her for what she has done. The best thing you can do for yourself is to just let it go. Nothing you do, nothing you say will change her or the past. Get on with your life and let it go!


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

pragmaster said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> It's been about a year of fighting and my ex-wife finally signed the agreement for divorce. In sum basically I keep the house and we don't have to pay each other anything. I cover the legal fees. It's a bad deal for both of us but it is slightly in my favor.
> 
> ...


Not too sure what you're complaining about - like me you over-trusted and now paying the price.

You should not have ceased the account. You should have got yourself removed from it.

This is _clearly_ a civil case with regards to Courts. So you would need good evidence to win your case proving that the debt isn't yours, so you can have it transferred to the person who took the money.
There is grounds under unlawful enrichment, that she knew the money was joint, not hers, and she had no intention of repaying it. OTOH, a joint account is literally your written confession that you undertake to cover her risk on that account.... although why there was $18k to take is ...weird... and I'm sure the judge will also look in askance on that too - so you better have a damn good answer (as opposed to "I'm gullible").

As I'm finding out - many women just _do_not_ see debt as something that must be paid off ! ever !! For many it is just a way of life and something that "just happens" when they want something, so the debt just accumulates and they struggle on getting more debt to cover shortfalls, compromise maintenance and inconvenient costs to make ends meet until Dad (or proxy Daddy government) wipes away all the bad stuff - that's what Men and government are for right? To look after the people?

Surprisingly few (keepers!) seem to conceive of paying off the debt, building a capital base and future, or the critical importance of establishing a solid strong foundation and undergoing appropriate sacrifice to achieve it. Often such things are labelled karma, or social advantage, by those who don't understand how to achieve it. So don't expect to ex to comprehend or accept such things (that was "your role" in the relationship - to provide the spending money and make the debt go away).

Advice-wise. Does she accept that it is her debt?
There should be a mediation or low-cost tribunal system in the Canadian legal system, often one that doesn't require a team of lawyers to access.
Find out how much of the debt she is willing to personally acknowledge, go to the tribunal/mediator and get it rubber stamped so there is her debt, and there is your debt.
If she wont go to mediation, then the tribunal or court is your only option, and a very necessary one.

Don't accept money from your family or friends until the bankruptcy period has expired !!! Otherwise you may find that any money gifted or lend to you _could_ be seized (or sued for) by your creditors - bankruptcy, even light bankruptcy, includes "monies and liquidate-able assets you have access to" not just "cash on hand".

If you do accept money, careful of the time and amount involved, some jurisdictions have a limit on amounts that can be received as tax-paid gifts.
Likewise with loans, make sure there is _written_ documentation, that includes source of funds, and why the interest rate is so low, and a "schedule" or arrangement for repayment including the "must be paid off by". Increasingly tax departments, especially if you had bankruptcy dealings, will check "loan" documents and decide that peppercorn interest is really just a gift, and that if there's no repayment time (or that the repayment time is "on death" or "forgiven") then the loan _might_ get declared _personal_income_! and thus you'd be up for taxes, evasion penalties, and have creditors after you. Remember you can write agreements, even borrow a couple of K more than you need, and repay some of it, and get "forgiven" for not meeting your contractual obligations - as long as it appears, and you have reasonable level of commitment to honor written contract (vs fraud with a (fakey) document).

But yes, I went through similar. A friend went through worse. His missus maxed all their credit cards on parties and consumables before he realised what happened, then she sold the "joint" house in a fast sale, leaving him scrambling where to live for him and family, solicitor paid off the mortgage, she left the country with "her half" of the profit, then returned (cash stashed overseas) and got government funding to hire an attorney to sue for custody (as she "missed her children" "who needed their mum" and various slights at Dad as a moody, depressive, career obsessed parent) Fortunately the judge wasn't quite as gullible as my friend who thought they were having an amicable separation until the credit card bill showed up. As far as I know she still considers herself wronged because he has a patriarchal rich family who obvious used their white rich privilege to sway the judge and keep her children.


----------



## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Folks...

My lawyer can't do anything. There are only four options: 


1) If she misses a payment I can sue her. I cannot sue her otherwise! This is the only thing I could get my lawyer to write up and enforce. 

2) The joint account cannot be divided by the court. It is in the contract we unfortunately signed. It is also excluded from the consumer proposal because it is specifically joint. My lawyer cannot change these facts!!!

3) My point is that if she keeps making the minimum payments she will still have that debt in 4-5 years. At that time, my consumer proposal will be done, but in all technicality I will still not be debt free. I wish so bad to have 0 debt again. I am sick and tired of this looming over my head. She's not ever going to pay it off in full unless she meets a sugar daddy or gets lucky in the lotto. She has 2 other credit cards, all maxed out. She owes 20,000 with RBC as well and I believe she is on minimum wage. She's not going to be able to keep this up unless some sort of miracle occurs. And having this joint debt is keeping us connected and that's causing emotional turmoil. 

4) Exortion and violence (which is apparently immature) 


I'm stressed because my ex-wife is putting a wedge between myself and my family. My parents think it's wise to just pay it off in full and then I just owe my parents. But I am sick and tired of having them involved and then guilt-tripping me for helping. I never asked for help!!! Every time I go over for supper it's all they talk about it. It's really stressing me out.

Going to tribunal or meditator is a great idea, but I am just surprised my lawyer didn't mention that. I will have to look into this. 

And no, they are not seizing funds. I opened up a new bank and transfered everything there and that's all good. 

And also, she took out the money that equaled 18,000 in the same week. I know for a fact she used it to pay for a skip trip and to pay down her own debts, and that pisses me off. Yes she accepts it's her debt. She refuses to communicate with me. She isn't answering.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She waived her half the home equity. 

You could sell the house, take the share of the equity that she waived - and pay this off. 

You just don't want to. Instead, you want to keep ALL the home equity and have her pay off this joint debt all by herself. 

If you weren't overflowing with poison, you could likely get a deal that looks like this:
1. In exchange for a lump sum payment of HALF, the creditor removes your name from the debt. 
2. Your wife will now be 'in the black' if she keeps paying $50/month as her interest will drop from 900 to 450. 

The biggest impediment to this scenario is - your desire to use any payment as a means to extract closure. 





pragmaster said:


> Folks...
> 
> My lawyer can't do anything. There are only four options:
> 
> ...


----------



## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> She waived her half the home equity.
> 
> You could sell the house, take the share of the equity that she waived - and pay this off.
> 
> ...


The creditor cannot remove my name. I have asked and asked and offered and offered. There is nothing I can do. Are you saying I should try a different creditor firm?? 

Selling the house and paying it off, well, I am going to have to do that. I think it's smartest move because then I don't have to get my parents involved at all.

Here's the kicker. The house went down over $40,000 from the market alone. We don't have any equity. In fact there is no way I can sell the house for what I paid. 


I don't know what you mean when you say closure. She stole this ****ing money and she should pay for it!

I am not trying to be difficult. She really ****ed me over here.


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

So the only solution that I see and that's based on what happens in the US is that you need to try to get her to agree to refinance that debt into her name only and then permanently close the joint account. That might take a bribe from you to get it done and it might be worth it. Tell her something like you'll pay all of the loan refinance costs and give her an extra $1000 on top of it. This way she has motivation to do it. 

I am in a somewhat similar yet reversed situation with my XW. When we got divorced I kept the house but both of our names were on the home loan. The only way to remove her name from the loan is for me to refinance the loan into my name only. However, I have no motivation to do that because I'd get stuck with the costs of the refinance and interest rates have gone up, so I'm not going to do anything unless she asks and comes up with the cash to cover the expenses.


----------



## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Bananapeel said:


> So the only solution that I see and that's based on what happens in the US is that you need to try to get her to agree to refinance that debt into her name only and then permanently close the joint account. That might take a bribe from you to get it done and it might be worth it. Tell her something like you'll pay all of the loan refinance costs and give her an extra $1000 on top of it. This way she has motivation to do it.
> 
> I am in a somewhat similar yet reversed situation with my XW. When we got divorced I kept the house but both of our names were on the home loan. The only way to remove her name from the loan is for me to refinance the loan into my name only. However, I have no motivation to do that because I'd get stuck with the costs of the refinance and interest rates have gone up, so I'm not going to do anything unless she asks and comes up with the cash to cover the expenses.


That is exactly right. Thing is though, I know for a fact she has debts with other banks and her credit is capped out. She validated all of this herself with financial documents a few weeks ago for the divorce. She would have to open a new line of credit and she is not eligible for that. 

To top it off, she is manipulator and a leech. She is well aware of the strain this is causing and she's happy to bring me down with her. She's the type of person that if someone offers free candy at Halloween she will take all the candy and use the excuse "well you shouldn't have said free"...or kind of like, the type who tries to get into car accidents on purpose so that her insurance claim pays for a new vehicle. This is the mentality I am up against. 

I might have some emotional days, but I am in no way difficult to talk to. I stopped trying to contact her some time go. It pains me a lot to be ignored continuously and so I'd rather not even bother anymore. 

She is a psycho. As wrong as it is this woman deserves a juicy slap in the face.


----------



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Can you get her to open up a credit card with zero interest for 18 months for balance transfers and transfer 18K of debt to that card? It gives her some time to pay it down and you get out from under the debt?


----------



## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Can you get her to open up a credit card with zero interest for 18 months for balance transfers and transfer 18K of debt to that card? It gives her some time to pay it down and you get out from under the debt?


Good idea if she was credit worthy. But someone making minimum wage who has another $20k worth of debt on top of the $18k she stole (if I read all that correctly) would not be eligible for a credit line that big. At least not in the US. Maybe it's different in Canada.


----------



## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

^^^^ Yup.

She isn't credit worthy. 


So it looks like I only have these options:

1) Pay it off in full and suck it up. Seeing I don't have money, I'd have to borrow from my parents and pay them back when I sell the house or over time. They said they are ok with this but I just feel awful for leaning on them once again. Total bull**** but probably what will have to happen. 

2) Sue her, potentially more costly then $18,000 in the long-run. 

3) Visit a tribunal/mediator and see if they can do anything. I did in fact speak about this to my credit counselor and he said that if she had good credit they could easily just create a new account and transfer the balance, but because of her poor credit this is not possible. She would also have to sign something and be willing to do this. I guess I can still check with other firms. 

4) Do nothing. Let her pay it off in full, which at this rate would take at least 10 years. It is a "trust" thing although in retrospect I do not trust her at all. I don't think she wants her credit to slide (she actually came out of a bankruptcy years ago). The drawback to this is twofold. One it is still a tie between her and I, and two, there is the possibility that at some point she stops paying it and I am back at square zero or #2. If she was a responsible, mature, honest individual I wouldn't let it bother me at all because I would trust it would be paid...but at this point, I hardly consider her a sane or reasonable person. 

5) Negotiating with her is an option but most likely not possible. The account is closed, so no more funds can be borrowed, unless she gets a private loan from her friends or family (which I know are minimal). Thing is, if I were to pay let's say half of it, it doesn't change the fact that the contract clearly states I can't get my name off of it until the funds are completely repaid. There are no papers available to sign to get me off of this (I checked with the bank to see if they had some sort of waiver).

6) Extortion and violence. Still an option, although I wouldn't attempt it myself for legal and moral reasons. Essentially, certain "unfortunate events" would occur resulting in which she has no choice but to declare bankruptcy, or miss a payment, which would give me rights to sue her, but even then, again, the debt would not be cleared simply because it is a joint debt. 

7) Theft. Steal and then sell her **** to pay back her own debt. I still wouldn't do this, but it's an option nonetheless. 

8) Fake my own death. ROTFL. 

It's kind of silly how joint debts are handled in Canada in regards to divorce. 


Sigh. Why did she do this? Just out of greed or selfishness? Why would someone create a connection between someone they are trying to distance themselves from? I truly hope this isn't some game.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Prag,
There is a commercial path out of this morass. It isn't free, but it's far better than the current situation. 

But there's little point in discussing such things since you compulsively reference extortion and violence. You 'say' you wouldn't resort to that, and yet you keep raising it as an 'option'.

When you get your head screwed back on, PM me. I am serious about this point, your innate desire to harm her is just a non starter with me. 

And based on your description of yourself you ought to take a big step back from all this ugly stuff. Because you would be very popular in prison. Don't think you would like that. 





pragmaster said:


> ^^^^ Yup.
> 
> She isn't credit worthy.
> 
> ...


----------



## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

I hear ya man. If I wanted to do any such things I would have already. Lol. It would be even dumber to do such things because now there is a paper trail online. 

So yeah. I am joking. LOL. I have a very dark sense of humor dude. I would NEVER do that ****. Faking my own death does sound hilarious though. Lol. 

Remember..... it's only a crime if you get caught! Bahhhhhhhhh. I'm too much in a good mood for this. I'll keep it morally sound just for you. You really need to meet me and my friends in person to get a grasp at how ridiculous we are. We don't mean to take life and death not seriously, but we don't. I figured if the modz don't like they'd say something themselves. 

Do tell about this commercial thing please.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I dont understand WHY she isnt in some kind of trouble for this?? If she took money after the agreements were in place, shouldnt she be held accountable for theft?


----------



## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

It's the worth joint agreement ever. Lol.


----------



## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Nope. It's the worst joint agreement ever. Lol.

That's why I expressed there was nothing I felt like I could do expect take matters in my own hands. I wouldn't, but that's why I expressed it. It seems pretty hopeless. 

She took the money and ran, just like in that song. Lol. 


In all honesty, I really wish I could just drive up to where she is apparently staying, wait outside until she's off work, confront her in person and have an adult conversation with her. I'm not a violent person and I have no criminal history at all. SHE is though. If she has a bf she'd unleash him onto me asap and call the cops.


----------



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

How about you borrow the money from your parents and have your wife pay YOU (you pay parents)?


----------



## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

EnjoliWoman said:


> How about you borrow the money from your parents and have your wife pay YOU (you pay parents)?


Great idea. How can I make it binding though? What is preventing her from agreeing then just stopping payments at some point?


----------

