# "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover



## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

I am reading this book at the suggestion of someone else in another thread I created. Has any one else read this book who would like to discuss it? I realize that my paradigm is so unhealthy and I've tried to utilize it over and over again. I feel like a crazy person (the definition of insanity is ...). Glover says the following about nice guys:


Dishonest
Secretive
Compartmentalize 
Manipulative
Controlling
Give to get
Passive Aggressive
Full of rage
Addictive
Have difficulty setting boundaries
Feel isolated
Seek out "projects"
Have trouble with intimacy

Wow! I see all of these in me. I have a great many behavioral patterns that must stop immediately if not sooner, but that isn't realistic. It took years of me seeing an abusive father who emasculated me and who I wanted to be nothing like. My mother, who probably gaslighted the hell out of him and me, played the victim and I wanted to rescue women in her supposed situation. Any thoughts? Any suggestions on where to turn for support? Thanks.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

keep at it. Check the sticky in the mens lounge


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Its a thought provoking book. I don't agree with all of his theories, but I agree with most of them.

The NMMNG website has a support forum you can join. The members are kind of crabby and churlish, but they are a good group of blokes. Best of all it's men only.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

RaceTrack1975 said:


> I am reading this book at the suggestion of someone else in another thread I created. Has any one else read this book who would like to discuss it? I realize that my paradigm is so unhealthy and I've tried to utilize it over and over again. I feel like a crazy person (the definition of insanity is ...). Glover says the following about nice guys:
> 
> 
> Dishonest
> ...


So, IMO, here's the psychology behind this. You had no real, authentic, healthy role models growing up. Your father made you doubt yourself and your mother made you think you were crazy. You never grew up able to achieve anything and really be proud of it - not without first worrying who was going to tear you down or else not allow you to be proud. You WANTED to, but you were afraid. This person, this RaceTrack, he wasn't much of a guy. So you walked through life in fear, just waiting for people to 'find out' the truth - that you weren't worth being with. 

Now remember, FEAR is the key to all our actions. Fear of judgment, of abandonment, of ridicule, and so on. So every interaction you have, you're (1) putting on a front, (2) waiting to be left/ridiculed/judged, and (3) praying the other person doesn't do so. And even if they don't, by then you're so grateful and still fearful that you wouldn't dream of standing up for yourself to get what you want or need. 

So how to GET what you want or need? By lying, or manipulating, or griping, or guilting...and so on. Because you feel unloveable and know if you gave people a chance, they'd choose not to be with you or support you. So you work really hard to never give anyone a chance to do so. By doing SO MUCH for them that they don't want to give you up, or by dragging them down so hard that they too feel incapable of standing up for themselves, and so on.

And you probably have toxic shame, too. You should also get the book Healing The Shame That Binds You (Hendrix); I'm pretty sure you're gonna be amazed to read it.

Now, given all that, what to do? By now I'm sure you know that the secret, the solution, has NOTHING to do with anyone else. It's all in 'there' (pointing to your head). If YOU don't love yourself, nobody else ever will. 

So my advice is do whatever you have to do to get away from the people you're stuck in this cycle with, as much as possible, and spend that newly free time working on your self worth. It will be hard work with a therapist, it will take months if not years, but you only get one life. I promise it will be worth it. 

Once you come out the other end with a love for yourself, you will VALUE yourself and will no longer FEAR that anyone will hurt you; because you're too valuable for that and, if they give you up or try to hurt you, your new, healthy reaction will be to say 'oh well, their loss; I'll go get someone else.' And you'll KNOW that you'll be able to.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RaceTrack1975 said:


> Wow! I see all of these in me. I have a great many behavioral patterns that must stop immediately if not sooner, but that isn't realistic. It took years of me seeing an abusive father who emasculated me and who I wanted to be nothing like. My mother, who probably gaslighted the hell out of him and me, played the victim and I wanted to rescue women in her supposed situation. Any thoughts? Any suggestions on where to turn for support? Thanks.


My experience, and now belief, is that we spend our adult years dealing with the crap our parents put in our heads.

Some people are lucky and their parents did little to no damage. Others are not so lucky. You are one of the unlucky ones. Remember that your parents were most likely dealing with the crap that their parents did to them.

As adults, we can no longer blame our parents because adults have the ability to change themselves. It's work, often hard work. But it can be done. You found out what you need to fix. Yes it will take time, but hey, at least you now have something to guide you through it.

Change yourself, do it one day at a time.


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## Slartibartfast (Nov 7, 2017)

..


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

RaceTrack1975;

My 2 cents. NMMNG really helped me change myself and the way I treat woment. I was in a sex starved marriage, you may or may not be. If you are, then there are certain aspects of Glover's advice that you need to focus on and haven't.

Glover talks a a lot about Getting a Life (GAL) that is an important way of proving to yourself that you have value and gaining pride in your accomplishments. It can be running, a hobby, or just about anything "manly" that get's you away from women, puts you in contact with men and makes you feel proud of your accomplishments. For me it was long distance running and mountain climbing, then later long distance bicycling. You need to learn how to be alone and how to be with men who can mentor you.

Next, you need to really understand co-dependence. A nice guy is in a codependent relationship with his wife as he constantly needs her validation. It is a female lead relationship thing he inherited from him mother and women teachers (aka authority figures). He needs to learn how not to be codependent on a woman, not require her validation.

Next thing that Glover goes over in great depth is "covert contracts." This is the hardest habit for most Nice Guys to break. You really need to become very introspective and ask yourself constantly "why am I doing this?" "Do have any expectations from my woman once I accomplish this task?" I found over and over again, that I was doing things for my wife as covert contracts in the hope of getting sex, attention, validation, etc. She saw through it every time and never played that game. You need to be self aware enough that you stop playing that game as well. I started to try to express unconditional love, like to my children and between my dog and myself. That can be a model that helps you give or do things (chores, etc) such that you are not expecting some kind of instant payback.

Finally, if you are in a Sex Starved Marriage, you really need to read MW Davis Book by that name. In many respects it is a companion book to NMMNG. In fact I think in the Acknowledgement of one of the two books are comments by the other author. Davis lays out the same issues a man faces as Glover. Her solutions include Getting A Life, and rather than covert contracts she expounds upon 180's. They are different, but somewhat related in that Nice Guy's often do something and it doesn't work so they double down on their covert contract (even more housework chores) over and over again, when in fact they should try something different (aka a 180).

I am a real fan of insights I gained in saving my marriage from Glover and highly recommend him, but I think you listed the wrong things in your post.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Slartibartfast said:


> Sure. And it seems to bring together people whose illnesses almost magically attract. Sometimes, you can see why. Submission to daddy, for instance, seeking out daddy figures. Sometimes it hard to see why, and it probably just happened, and we notice it, because when the illness don't match up symbiotically people work things out okay.
> 
> And, yeah, they're playing out their parents, very often. We sometimes don't know that because we don't get to see it in our grandparents. She's the nice old lady who spoils you with cookies. He's the retired guy with a hundred stories. But ask your aunts and uncles. You may find the nice old lady was bat-s*** crazy, and you just might see where her child, your parent, got it.
> 
> I don't think most of us really ever genuinely know our parents, anyway.


I read a long time ago that people pair up when their mental health issues fit like a glove. I think it's true. That's why people seem to get into basically the same type of relationship over and over. While they find a new partner, the same issues still exist. People get comfortable with the devil they know. And we become unwitting experts at picking up on people who have the bad traits/issues that match our own.

But that can all change if the person changes.


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## NickyT (Aug 14, 2017)

RaceTrack1975 said:


> I am reading this book at the suggestion of someone else in another thread I created. Has any one else read this book who would like to discuss it? I realize that my paradigm is so unhealthy and I've tried to utilize it over and over again. I feel like a crazy person (the definition of insanity is ...). Glover says the following about nice guys:
> 
> 
> Dishonest
> ...


Wait...what??????????

Can you explain about the book? Does the author say "nice guys" are all these things? Cause you just described by husband with the 2 exceptions! Everyone thinks my husband is so nice!


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## David Darling (Oct 22, 2016)

Has any one had good results just working on themselves with the exercises? Or do you *need* to join a men's group?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Re: &quot;No More Mr. Nice Guy&quot; by Robert Glover*

The symptoms list is BS. I'm probably a "nice guy" by Dr Glover's definition but I'm also confident of my self, don't need anyone's validation (except the USPTO on occasion ). 

If anyone feels they can succeed without being at least slightly secretive, manipulative, blah blah, I have a pet unicorn to sell you.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

David Darling said:


> Has any one had good results just working on themselves with the exercises? Or do you *need* to join a men's group?


I don't think it has to be a formal "mens group" -- some psychologically healthy male friends would do (what the book calls "safe people"). The online support group can also supply some of this. 

I am in a men's group, but did a lot of work just from the book before I found the group.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

*Re: &quot;No More Mr. Nice Guy&quot; by Robert Glover*



john117 said:


> The symptoms list is BS. I'm probably a "nice guy" by Dr Glover's definition


Really? 

My understanding of it is it's a little bit like a male-specific version of "codependent".


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## David Darling (Oct 22, 2016)

Laurentium said:


> I don't think it has to be a formal "mens group" -- some psychologically healthy male friends would do (what the book calls "safe people"). The online support group can also supply some of this.
> 
> I am in a men's group, but did a lot of work just from the book before I found the group.


Thanks for the comment.

I haven't read it properly yet (never heard of it before I came here).

My wife was upset by the title (which is probably an indication we do need to read it :smile2


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

David Darling said:


> Has any one had good results just working on themselves with the exercises? Or do you *need* to join a men's group?


I had good results from just reading the book, but as I posted earlier, I also read another book with a similar perspective and the two helped me better understand what each was trying to say.

Ultimately rather than a men's group, I got serious help from a sex therapist who provided both my wife and me with counseling.

I am not in the market for a unicorn of any color or size, but I do agree that your mileage may very based on your situation and your spouse/situation. It is not a silver bullet, but the perspective helped me. It may or may not help you.

I did lurk on the Glover website forum group and found many of the comments a bit off-putting. More in the vein of "I want to become a dominant alpha male" than I want to change myself to become a better more integrated man. I felt that too many felt that the opposite of a Nice Guy was a Jerk. To me the opposite of a Nice Guy was what I would call an independent integrated man who felt comfortable being a man and was not dependent upon validation from the women in his life.

Good luck.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Slartibartfast said:


> Sure. And it seems to bring together people whose illnesses almost magically attract. Sometimes, you can see why. Submission to daddy, for instance, seeking out daddy figures. Sometimes it hard to see why, and it probably just happened, and we notice it, because when the illness don't match up symbiotically people work things out okay.
> 
> And, yeah, they're playing out their parents, very often. We sometimes don't know that because we don't get to see it in our grandparents. She's the nice old lady who spoils you with cookies. He's the retired guy with a hundred stories. But ask your aunts and uncles. You may find the nice old lady was bat-s*** crazy, and you just might see where her child, your parent, got it.
> 
> I don't think most of us really ever genuinely know our parents, anyway.


You can see the explanation for all this in the book Getting The Love You Want. It explains why we seek out who we do.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Re: &quot;No More Mr. Nice Guy&quot; by Robert Glover*



Laurentium said:


> Really?
> 
> My understanding of it is it's a little bit like a male-specific version of "codependent".


The list of symptoms is cleverly written to encompass much of typical civilized male behavior, then proclaim these that match as Nice Guys.

Nice try. I've read NMMNG and unfortunately Dr Glover's premise is not something I agree with. 

People don't have an all in or all out personality. They aren't all "afraid I confrontation" or "seeking to confront others" they vary like intelligent creatures are expected to do. 

Manipulation? My cat is awesome at it. Compartmentalize? It's an asset. 

Not to pull rank here but traditional psychology is not about diagnosing with a ten item checklist. It's about understanding why things happen and how one thing influences another.


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## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

NickyT said:


> Wait...what??????????
> 
> Can you explain about the book? Does the author say "nice guys" are all these things? Cause you just described by husband with the 2 exceptions! Everyone thinks my husband is so nice!


I think the author says that nice guys, or soft/weak guys, are many of these things while the nice will will tell you all kinds of good things about himself (honest, dependable, faithful, respectful of women, etc.).


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## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

*Re: &quot;No More Mr. Nice Guy&quot; by Robert Glover*



john117 said:


> The list of symptoms is cleverly written to encompass much of typical civilized male behavior, then proclaim these that match as Nice Guys.
> 
> Nice try. I've read NMMNG and unfortunately Dr Glover's premise is not something I agree with.
> 
> ...


I understand your reservations do believe that any book like this is going to make generalizations and what not. However, I do believe that I have some behavior patterns that need to be corrected. I am codependent with my wife as I seek her approval and distress when I don't get it. That isn't a strong male that I'm being.


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## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

turnera said:


> So, IMO, here's the psychology behind this. You had no real, authentic, healthy role models growing up. Your father made you doubt yourself and your mother made you think you were crazy. You never grew up able to achieve anything and really be proud of it - not without first worrying who was going to tear you down or else not allow you to be proud. You WANTED to, but you were afraid. This person, this RaceTrack, he wasn't much of a guy. So you walked through life in fear, just waiting for people to 'find out' the truth - that you weren't worth being with.
> 
> Now remember, FEAR is the key to all our actions. Fear of judgment, of abandonment, of ridicule, and so on. So every interaction you have, you're (1) putting on a front, (2) waiting to be left/ridiculed/judged, and (3) praying the other person doesn't do so. And even if they don't, by then you're so grateful and still fearful that you wouldn't dream of standing up for yourself to get what you want or need.
> 
> ...


I think you hit the nail on the head. You are absolutely 100% correct in your assessment. :surprise:


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## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> RaceTrack1975;
> 
> I am a real fan of insights I gained in saving my marriage from Glover and highly recommend him, but I think you listed the wrong things in your post.


How so? I mean, I'm sure there are more. :crying: but I don't think those are wrong. I mean, I'm not a compulsive liar but I'm not 100% authentic either as one example.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Re: &quot;No More Mr. Nice Guy&quot; by Robert Glover*



RaceTrack1975 said:


> I understand your reservations do believe that any book like this is going to make generalizations and what not. However, I do believe that I have some behavior patterns that need to be corrected. I am codependent with my wife as I seek her approval and distress when I don't get it. That isn't a strong male that I'm being.


Ah... But it really depends on the degree. Most humans tend to seek validation and distress when they don't get it. 

Now, if you follow your wife around the way my cat follows me... That's different.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

*Re: &quot;No More Mr. Nice Guy&quot; by Robert Glover*



john117 said:


> People don't have an all in or all out personality. They aren't all "afraid I confrontation" or "seeking to confront others" they vary like intelligent creatures are expected to do.


I completely agree with that. I understand the book as being addressed to those that are bit too high on the "niceness" scale. 

But I know many men who have found it useful - and their partners were grateful.



> Not to pull rank here but traditional psychology is not about diagnosing with a ten item checklist.


Indeed. As I understand it, that's _psychiatry_, a different field.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm not so sure the guy's a psychiatrist. And, psychiatry is more about medical intervention and pathology issues rather than dialectic therapy. 

Maybe there's a Nice Guy chromosome?


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

RaceTrack1975 said:


> > Originally Posted by Young at Heart View Post
> > RaceTrack1975;
> >
> > I am a real fan of insights I gained in saving my marriage from Glover and highly recommend him, but I think you listed the wrong things in your post.
> ...


As I said in my post, my understanding of the "Nice Guy complex" is not that laundry list you posted.

My understanding is that being a "Nice Guy" is about:

Needing a woman's validation
being codependent
trying to use covert contracts to get what you want/need
not being emotionally integrated
not being independent
not being "manly" (whatever stero-type you want to imagine)
not being proud of who you are and what you can accomplish

If I were to put together a list of "traits"
they would be 
emotional weakness or needy
fearful/afraid of rejection
not confident
un-manly
submissive
immature

Those are not the list you posted. 

They may truly be discussed by Glover, but they are not the key ideas,* I got from reading and studying his book as it related to my life*.

For me Glover's "Nice Guy" complex was about men raised by women to please women and what that did to a man later in his life. About social pressure to define success as having pleased a woman and gotten her approval. About the lack of male "coming of age" tribal rituals, where a man declares himself to be a man and is accepted by his "tribe" as a man and no longer a boy. About boys spending more time with women authority figures than with adult males. About how modern society has pretty much "neutered" traditional masculinity roles, self sufficiency, and the celebration of boys becoming men. How it is "better" for some to be a "gentleman" as opposed to just a "man."

While my wife wants a "gentleman" she also wants an independent strong masculine figure who is confident and who taught our sons how to survive in the wilderness, how to build fires, chop wood, repair mechanical and electrical things, be physically strong, and protect the women in our life.

Again, that is just my perspective, I am not saying you are a liar. I am just trying to share my insights. I also feel that MW Davis book the Sex Starved Marriage is a great companion book. It gave me *two similar, but different perspectives* on the same set of issues that I was facing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

RaceTrack1975 said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head. You are absolutely 100% correct in your assessment. :surprise:


 I know. lol

I've been doing this a long time and my one skill is psychology. I understand why people do what they do.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Re: &quot;No More Mr. Nice Guy&quot; by Robert Glover*

Well, maybe I should have me a fundraiser to afford Dr. Glover's certification class of how not to be a nice guy. Some topics include:

"Practicing living without attachment to outcome"

What does it mean? Does it mean just play along and don't worry, be happy? Isn't the outcome what drives us? Life ain't cycling people... 

Anyhow.


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## David Darling (Oct 22, 2016)

*Re: &quot;No More Mr. Nice Guy&quot; by Robert Glover*



john117 said:


> Well, maybe I should have me a fundraiser to afford Dr. Glover's certification class of how not to be a nice guy. Some topics include:
> 
> "Practicing living without *attachment* to outcome"
> 
> ...


No idea what Glover teaches, but attachment is a key part of Buddhist philosophy. We all need to work towards particular goals and outcomes, but it is the being *attached* to those outcomes that causes unhappiness. Same for being attached to "our" emotions and "our" thoughts. The ideas are also part of modern therapies such as ACT I believe.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

David Darling said:


> Has any one had good results just working on themselves with the exercises? Or do you *need* to join a men's group?


I had good luck without joining a men's group. That being said, I did not have these traits / behaviors ingrained into me by my family growing up. It was my (now ex-) wife who had me doubting myself and left me thinking (for a while) that I was undeserving of the marriage I wanted / we agreed to have).

And, I had started changing myself before acquiring the book and picking up steam on that front. My sense is that my particular circumstances made it easier to start getting out of that mindset. So, just because I managed to turn things around on my own, you might not be able to do so. But the principles in the book are solid, so you should do what it takes to incorporate them into your life.

I understand making such significant changes can seem daunting (that's the sense I get from the quote, which seems to ask how much work does this really take). But the payoff can be huge. This is not an approach to relationships. It's about the way you approach life (of which a romantic relationship is a major part). I'm "meh" about what the book says are the causes of such behavior. But I totally agree with the effects of the Nice Guy mindset:

* You feel ashamed, unworthy, or afraid (of negative consequences) to ask for what you want.
* After enough time of not getting what you want, you try to "nice" your way into it.
* Since being "nice" doesn't work and you don't feel empowered to directly seek what you want, you become significantly unhappy and feel "stuck".
* You get beat down and your outlook sucks, and your ability to advocate for yourself diminishes further, etc. Maybe you even start having emotional swings, which is really unattractive.

The book teaches you to be the opposite of that. You are worthy to seek the life you want, as long as you do the work it takes to have it (meaning you can add value to your preferred situation). Stand up for yourself and be heard; own your wants and needs are valid per se and as important as those of the next person. You're never stuck; if you reach an impasse in a given situation, you are capable of finding a better one.

It's easy to see how this would change the dynamic between you and your partner. But consider the impact on your career, where you refuse to lie down for poor treatment at work (inequitable pay, crappy assignments). How about the impact on your other personal relationships? Do you have someone in your life who always wants something and you'd like to say "no" but don't feel free to do so? Keep in mind there are people out there who will overtly use your "Nice Guy" tendencies against you to have their needs met at your expense.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you want more specifics about how this helped me.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Re: &quot;No More Mr. Nice Guy&quot; by Robert Glover*



David Darling said:


> No idea what Glover teaches, but attachment is a key part of Buddhist philosophy. We all need to work towards particular goals and outcomes, but it is the being *attached* to those outcomes that causes unhappiness. Same for being attached to "our" emotions and "our" thoughts. The ideas are also part of modern therapies such as ACT I believe.


How can you be passionate about something and not be"attached"... It's not "authentic".

See, that's why I'm not a big fan of pop psychology. I'm all for real psychology.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Career advice? Whoooooa. Not so fast.

Unless you have immense talent and live in some place nobody wants to go, there's plenty of fish able and willing to take your position. 

That's where games get to be played.


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## David Darling (Oct 22, 2016)

*Re: &quot;No More Mr. Nice Guy&quot; by Robert Glover*



john117 said:


> How can you be passionate about something and not be"attached"


I know, it blows my mind too. Fascinating concept.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Life is all about balance and choices. But the fun part is, the qualities attributed to Nice Guys is what I look for when hiring people. 

Passion, getting along with women (marketing ), cooperation, eager to please (when I ask them to work thru the holidays), idealistic....

Maybe I should use the NMMNG HR edition..


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## Jethro (Aug 16, 2013)

I listened to Glover’s book for the first time nearly six years ago in the wake of discovering my wife’s EA and have relistened to parts of it since. I thought his approach was a bit too formulaic (no surprise), but I did see myself in much of what he wrote about and his prescriptions have been a helpful guide for me to avoid slipping back into my Nice Guy mode.

I wouldn’t say I am an extreme nice guy, but I am solidly in the nice guy end of the spectrum. Among my nice guy characteristics:

–I tried to be a “pleaser” in the hopes that others will reciprocate by giving me what I want/need. This is painfully obvious to me as I look at the ways I catered to my wife. I’d catch myself doing things for her, hoping that if I am giving her what she wants she will give me what I want (affection, support, sex–what Glover calls “covert contracts”). Or, I would try to make things better for her, believing that if I can keep her in a good mood, my life will be easier. I have also tried to be a “fixer” of her problems.

–I had difficulty expressing what I wanted/needed. My wife expressed frustration with my inability to say what I want, even for small things, such as gifts or where I want to go to eat.

–I have been frustrated with my sexual relationship with my wife throughout most of our marriage and have resorted at times to inappropriate coping mechanisms.

–Up to that point I would say I was modestly successful in my career, but I tended to stay in bad work situations, hoping that if I keep my head down and work harder things will “work out.” In the aftermath of discovering her EA I took decisive action to address the rut I was in and have been happy with the trajectory of my career since then.

–I still have no close male friends outside of my work. I don’t often hang out with men, except in work-related situation. I have almost always had an easier time relating to women than men in social/professional situations—but not in an attempt to sleep with them.

–I always tried to hide those aspects of myself that I feared others will disapprove of, which affected how I viewed both my career and my relationship with my wife. This effort to try to look perfect caused a lot of stress and turmoil inside me. I haven’t completely let that go, but I am much better, especially in my marital relationship.

–I don’t have activities or hobbies of my own. The activities I used to be involved in, such as community service organizations, musical theater, and sports, I either gave up when we got married or they dissipated over time as children came along and we moved. Now, my work obligations, including a lot of time on other boards, make having a real avocation a near impossibility.

–Though I was never physically abused as a child, my father was verbally abusive to me, my siblings, and my mother. He was absent a lot due to work, was uninvolved in our lives in general, and was a binge drinker. When he died in 2002 I felt some sorrow, but did not feel like I had lost someone significant to me. As the oldest my mother frequently took me into her confidence and I vowed to be a very different husband and father than my father had been.

The Nice Guy book also talks about the importance of boundaries, so between it and “Boundaries in Marriage,” I saw how/why boundary-setting and maintenance was critical to my ability to exist with my wife in a more healthy environment.

Do I subscribe wholeheartedly to Glover’s framework? No. I tried to engage with the discussion boards, but didn’t really connect with the other users who seemed to have become zealous converts. I did, however, find elements in Glover’s book that helped me understand myself better and gave me guidance on how I might reverse some of my tendencies and habits built up over many years.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Exactly. I have no problem with a lot in the book, but to make it a cookbook is a bit simplified. 

Think this. If my cat has drastically different behaviors with the different people in the household, why is it that humans are expected to have a single authentic  personality from the lab to the bedroom?

I'm quite successful in my career, don't depend on anyone's validation, have plenty of male friends, and I'm quite authentic. All that while being manipulative, nice, scratch my back and I'll scratch your back type. 

Despite growing up in a village I hate the outdoors, couldn't skin a cucumber, and my ideal environment is Chicago. 

What many psychology afficionados may forget is that it's the lower level cognitive functions that are common among most people and relatively easy to quantity. Not high level stuff involving feelings and emotions. I spent months learning one technique (CBT) and applying it - most pop psychology books are heavy in generalizations and thin in actions.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

David Darling said:


> My wife was upset by the title (which is probably an indication we do need to read it :smile2


Rule #1 on the NMMNG forum: don't tell your spouse or S.O. about this book. Three good reasons why not:

1. The title itself can put people on the defensive.
2. Change may be stressful as the guy stands up overtly for his own wants and needs as equivalent to hers.
3. Sadly, some people will resist this change because they stand to lose from it. My ex actually doubled-down on her attempts to make me feel inferior and fall back into line, going so far as to spread lies about me at church and ask the pastoral staff to intercede on her behalf.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I don't mean it strictly as career advice. You can't just pop off unreasonably. You have to be professional and back up your requests with performance, just as in your personal life.

However, feeling confidence in yourself and agency in your life, and refusing to live in fear of pays off. Sure games get played, but you know you don't have to play along. And you don't have to be immensely talented (just a solid contributor) for your employer to expend significant cost in replacing you.

A perfect example of this is my first job after business school, preparing pricing for sales staff. Things are going well then management decides to seriously ramp up the chase for new business. I tolerated the deteriorated conditions for a while but then stood up for myself and pushed back on the crappy pay and long hours (privately, but matter-of-factly). I know what reasonable and what's not.

I got a heavy dose of the company line (you need to do more, your raises reflect your performance, this company takes care of the hard workers). Instead of falling into line, I did just enough and instead ramped up the job search.

The outcome? When I gave notice, my manager and I chatted about the new job and what I'd be making (~15% bump). A few days later, my manager offers to match my new salary. He conceded you have to make noise and and have to get results at that company, which means if I had just toed the line I would have gotten nowhere.

You suggest I could have been shown the door; instead the opposite happened. If I had been afraid to speak up and take action, I would have toiled long hours for raises that (at best) kept up with inflation, indefinitely. And this isn't some podunk company (it is Top 10 in the Fortune 500 list, then and now); this is reality for corporate America.



john117 said:


> Career advice? Whoooooa. Not so fast.
> 
> Unless you have immense talent and live in some place nobody wants to go, there's plenty of fish able and willing to take your position.
> 
> That's where games get to be played.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Now that I see you're a hiring manager, your response to my earlier comments make sense. As an individual contributor, my interests deviate significantly from those of management. Your general goal is to expend as little effort in your workforce as possible, where my goal is to maximize my experience. For most of us a huge part of job satisfaction revolves around pragmatic issues.

So, of course you want a malleable, supplicant workforce that just comes in, gets their work done, doesn't complain, etc. That makes your leadership duties as easy as possible. Someone like me (who is really good at what I do, but expects to be rewarded accordingly) makes extra work for you. You either have to step up and provide (good pay, growth opportunities) or replace me.

I accept that the extra effort I may require might make you think less of me. But if so I really don't care; I'll take up headspace as "I need to work at keeping DTO happy because he's good at what he does and I'd rather not have to go out and replace him" rather than "DTO gets his stuff done and asks for nothing" if it means I get a good deal in return. And if I can't get my needs met, I'll pack up and head elsewhere without fear, being confident in my abilities to find a better situation for myself.

And THAT attitude / outlook is the benefit that NMMNG has brought to me, which makes me wholeheartedly recommend it to others.



john117 said:


> Life is all about balance and choices. But the fun part is, the qualities attributed to Nice Guys is what I look for when hiring people.
> 
> Passion, getting along with women (marketing ), cooperation, eager to please (when I ask them to work thru the holidays), idealistic....
> 
> Maybe I should use the NMMNG HR edition..


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Nice guys used to mean something positive, respected in civility, chivalry, fairness, moral codes that could not be broken by other people or situations.

How we changed that to mean something quite opposite is amazing.


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## David Darling (Oct 22, 2016)

DTO said:


> Rule #1 on the NMMNG forum: don't tell your spouse or S.O. about this book. Three good reasons why not:
> 
> 1. The title itself can put people on the defensive.
> 2. Change may be stressful as the guy stands up overtly for his own wants and needs as equivalent to hers.
> 3. Sadly, some people will resist this change because they stand to lose from it. My ex actually doubled-down on her attempts to make me feel inferior and fall back into line, going so far as to spread lies about me at church and ask the pastoral staff to intercede on her behalf.





Emerging Buddhist said:


> Nice guys used to mean something positive, respected in civility, chivalry, fairness, moral codes that could not be broken by other people or situations.
> 
> How we changed that to mean something quite opposite is amazing.


The title _is_ misleading. "Teaching Nice Guys How To Be More Assertive (Without Being An Aggressive A-Hole)" is a more accurate title. Perhaps not quite as catchy.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Do we really think Americans are "less assertive"???


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## Jethro (Aug 16, 2013)

john117 said:


> Do we really think Americans are "less assertive"???


Generalize much?


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## David Darling (Oct 22, 2016)

For sure, plenty are "Aggressive A-Holes". Remaining a Nice Guy while being assertive is a difficult balance. And no, I don't think many people find that balance.


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## RaceTrack1975 (Jul 18, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> As I said in my post, my understanding of the "Nice Guy complex" is not that laundry list you posted.
> 
> My understanding is that being a "Nice Guy" is about:
> 
> ...



After reading the book (or listening to it), I see what you mean. Yes, I need to speak my mind. I've not done so out of fear or disapproval.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

RaceTrack1975 said:


> After reading the book (or listening to it), I see what you mean. Yes, I need to speak my mind. I've not done so out of fear or disapproval.


If you buy into Glover's viewpoint, it is probably that you have been conditioned for decades and decades by a mother and women teachers and authority figures to do what women want you to do and to behave in ways to please them.

Changing one's conditioning takes time. It isn't about weakness of spirit as opposed to all that conditioning. They ring the bell, you salivate. It will take time to change yourself.

It is more than speaking your mind, fear or disapproval. You need to change how you view yourself, what you need from others to thrive, and your boundaries with regards to women.

Good luck on becoming a more integrated man. The Get A Life component is critical in the transformation. The hardest thing to do for me was to stop covert contracts. That is really hard to do.


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