# Splitting assests, lawyer or not?



## HotAirBaloon14 (Nov 24, 2019)

My soon to be ex wants to divorce without lawyers. I was ok with that until we sat down and talked about splitting assets and child custody. She feels she is being nice splitting equity from the house and banks accounts with me since I didn't earn anything being stay at home dad last 3 years. She blew up when I asked about retirement. She is letting me have the truck, owe 10000 and worth 24000. Equity and bank accounts will total around 50000 or 60000. She wants primary custody of our son, even though she has worked so much in the past she was hardly ever home. She is reluctant to let me have much of any of the rest of the assets. For those who did use a lawyer, is it worth the cost to get the extra?

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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I am not your lawyer and this is not legal advice. This is merely general information and education.

First rule for males in divorce: do not leave the house until a court orders you to do so. If anyone leaves, it is her, not you and not the kids.

You need to talk to several divorce lawyers in your state. Most will give you a free interview to see if you want to hire them. You should find out as much as you can during these interviews. Topics include:

what right do I have over her retirement plan assets?
how much custody am I likely to receive if we go to court and fight about it?
what amount of support is reasonable to ask for if I have been stay at home parent for several years and may need training before I can get a decent job?
how much will it likely cost if we have to go to court to work everything out?

Good luck. This is not easy. Information is power. So is caring enough about yourself to ask for what you deserve. So is not being so fearful of conflict that you concede issues before even trying to fight over them. Be strong. Standing up for yourself in the divorce is the first step on learning how to stand up for yourself in your next relationship.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

My advice to you is, if you don't want to get completely screwed, get a lawyer. Quickly. She is going to try to bully you, coerce you and shame you into a deal that benefits her, not you. You would be better off stepping away and letting a lawyer do the fighting for you.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

In some cases where a couple is divorcing on very friendly terms, I think its possible to agree on what you want to have happen, then jointly go to a lawyer to help write that up in clear legal language. 

Here though it sounds like there is already disagreement. In that case you should probably both have attorneys. Still, see if you can both try to agree to be reasonable or the attorneys may get more than either of you do.


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## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

We used a mediator rather than a lawyer - probably saved about 50% as I needed a lawyer to do the retirement. I couldn't negotiate the legal process for that myself.

We did not have underage children and she did not want alimony, so there was not much to argue about.

If you think there is alimony involved that will not be easily agreed upon, I would agree that a lawyer is a good thing.

In my case every lawyer I talked to after going to the mediator would have caused rift and raised the cost beyond what was necessary.


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## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

Btw - most states require 50/50 division of retirement. So don't let her bulldoze you on that.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Mediation is fine if you are in the ballpark to start. It sounds like you are. Few divorces are decided by the judge. Usually the parties come to agreement outside of court, even if they've had expensive lawyers arguing in court. Know what you desire, know what would be acceptable, and know your absolute limits. Go to the mediator and start by asking for the moon. Then listen to her proposal and negotiate. Worst case is you don't find agreement. But you may resolve at least some of the issues.

Our mediator provided some information but it was not legal advice even though she was a lawyer. Things like "this is a typical way of calculating what it is worth", or "judges are typically happy with this but not that". So there was some guidance to keep us within bounds, plus of course providing the structure and safe space to discuss productively.

Generally you should end up pretty close to 50/50 on the net worth. Add up all assets and subtract all debts. Divide in half and that is what each of you get. In your example the truck counts as $14,000 net towards your half of the assets. Don't get caught up in the gross value or the loan balance, look at the net. Loans go with the asset, so car loans go with the car, mortgage goes with the house, etc.

Retirements are a bit tricky to calculate exactly, but generally you would get half of what it is worth today. If it is a 401k or IRA account then half would be transferred to your 401k or IRA. You can get burned with taxes if you don't transfer them directly. If it is a pension then you may need professional help calculating present value of the future expected payments. Taxes on investments and realtor costs on selling the home are details but probably not big numbers, so it may not be worth paying a CPA to figure those out. The mediator may give you some guidance on whether your situation warrants accountants.

Having said that, there is nothing wrong with you hiring a lawyer to advise you from the sidelines. Even without your stbxw knowing about it. That is what I did, and it did help me negotiate with more confidence.

I highly recommend having a lawyer review all documents before you sign anything. With minor children involved it is important you get the documents airtight.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

As you probably know, there are two things you don't want, one is to give your spouse everything, the other is a bloodbath where the lawyers get everything. A mediator is a good idea. Others have suggested consulting a lawyer on the side, and this is fine if you can trust the lawyer. If you can't, he is likely to get you into a bloodbath with promises of stuff you will never get.

There are two ways you can trust someone, one is the person is so loyal he would never lie to you. The other is you know enough to know when he is lying to you.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

First rule of negotiations is to reject the first offer automatically, then reject the next two. If there is a fourth offer, most likely it will be fair.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

@HotAirBaloon14

Do you now if your state is an community property state or an equitable distribution state? You can search online to find this out and to find out how things are normally split in divorce.

If it's a community property state, than everything that has been earned/accumulated during marriage is split 50/50. Separate property generally belongs to the spouse who owned it before marriage or inherited it after marriage. Retirement earned/saved during marriage is community property and split 50/50. You will probably need a lawyer to set this up.

Depending on how long your two have been married, if you have not been working you are probably entitled to spousal support or alimony. Generally during the divorce process, you can get what is called interim alimony, or spousal support. Then after the divorce you might be able to get at least rehabilitative spousal support to help you out until you find a job.

You can find tons of info about your state online. There are books in sold for each state so you can learn your rights.

With th way your wife is talking, you will need at least mediation so that your rights are protected.

Take advantage of the free time some lawyers will give you and get info.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Edit: I should add that this is the relevant information for my state and could vary but likely not by *that* much.

Half of the accrued amount in the 401k is yours (IE if it existed before the marriage, that part stays hers and you split the rest). It might piss her off but it is something you are entitled to. In general, if there is one "primary breadwinner", that makes people feel entitled to assets just like "primary caregiver" makes people feel entitled to the children. Those feelings are largely irrelevant in divorce except where they indicate logistical problems (IE someone that works a lot of overtime doesn't have time to take care of children and someone that doesn't work can't support a house payment usually).

My STBX feels guilty for splitting my 401k since she didn't make much of a financial contribution to the family (and she thought of me and called me a miserly/greedy SOB for having retirement savings).


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## HotAirBaloon14 (Nov 24, 2019)

EleGirl said:


> @HotAirBaloon14
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Community state, its Texas. 

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## HotAirBaloon14 (Nov 24, 2019)

She is actually trying to list the house for sale now, we havent agreed on anything yet. If she has filed she hasn't informed me about it yet, although I believe she is going to file this week. 

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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

HotAirBaloon14 said:


> She is actually trying to list the house for sale now, we havent agreed on anything yet. If she has filed she hasn't informed me about it yet, although I believe she is going to file this week.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


If you can afford it get a lawyer, then ask about a mediator. Where do you stand on debt, retirement, alimony, child support, property and custody?

Each of those will tell you if you can do it yourself, mediation or need a lawyer before looking anything up.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Your wife's attitude already sings of legal mediation at least... lawyers at best.

I had a fairly amicable end with everything on the table 30 years brings and it still required professional and competent legal oversight to ensure we were both being fair.

You are wrapping up a degree and will soon be in the workforce in a job with a demand, do not get fixated on dollars outside of what the law honors.

Money may be important to some, but it is not more important to custody.

I think your wife is being driven by more than she lets on, your goal is to stay as calm as a bullfighter while she runs herself tired against the cape of assets.

Remember, the bullfighter does not win by letting the bull hit them... the cape is real to the bull, a diversion for the fighter.

Fair custody should be your "Toro!".

Let legal law of community property handle all else... and that part is worth the several thousand in review.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

HotAirBaloon14 said:


> She is actually trying to list the house for sale now, we havent agreed on anything yet. If she has filed she hasn't informed me about it yet, although I believe she is going to file this week.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


If both your names are on the house, both names must be on the listing... at least that is how it is in my state.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> If you can afford it get a lawyer, then ask about a mediator. Where do you stand on debt, retirement, alimony, child support, property and custody?
> 
> Each of those will tell you if you can do it yourself, mediation or need a lawyer before looking anything up.


Keep in mind that she cannot list the house without your agreement to do so. 

How long have the two of you been married?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Yeah, your house comment pushes me into lawyer First mode. Your wife is doing to you what many SAHM mom’s come here and complain about and rightly so. People who leave the house to work tend to devalue the stay at home parent. So, they decide to tell you what is going to happen and what you are going to get. They expect you to feel grateful you are getting anything because it was their money that funded everything.

The marriage is ending, but it is still a partnership until it ends. She has no more right to dictate terms than you do.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Get a lawyer.

She is trying to railroad you.


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## HotAirBaloon14 (Nov 24, 2019)

EleGirl said:


> Keep in mind that she cannot list the house without your agreement to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> How long have the two of you been married?


I am not listed on the house, but yes I understand that she can not just list the house without me.

We have been married 7 years.

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## HotAirBaloon14 (Nov 24, 2019)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yeah, your house comment pushes me into lawyer First mode. Your wife is doing to you what many SAHM mom’s come here and complain about and rightly so. People who leave the house to work tend to devalue the stay at home parent. So, they decide to tell you what is going to happen and what you are going to get. They expect you to feel grateful you are getting anything because it was their money that funded everything.
> 
> The marriage is ending, but it is still a partnership until it ends. She has no more right to dictate terms than you do.


Yea when we tried to talk about it this past weekend, she made several comments about how I didnt earn anything around the house. She feels she is being generous by giving me half the equity just to get rid of me. I did work with equal pay the first 4 years we were together. 

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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

HotAirBaloon14 said:


> phillybeffandswiss said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, your house comment pushes me into lawyer First mode. Your wife is doing to you what many SAHM mom’s come here and complain about and rightly so. People who leave the house to work tend to devalue the stay at home parent. So, they decide to tell you what is going to happen and what you are going to get. They expect you to feel grateful you are getting anything because it was their money that funded everything.
> ...


I'm telling you, get a lawyer. Sounds like she is setting up to take you to the cleaners


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

HotAirBaloon14 said:


> Yea when we tried to talk about it this past weekend, she made several comments about how I didnt earn anything around the house. She feels she is being generous by giving me half the equity just to get rid of me. I did work with equal pay the first 4 years we were together.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


Nope, get a lawyer. Oh and don’t let anyone fool you. Get the right/good lawyer and she’ll end up paying some or all of the costs. 

You may have to do mediation first, but sounds like she wants it ugly.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

HotAirBaloon14 said:


> Yea when we tried to talk about it this past weekend, she made several comments about how I didnt earn anything around the house. She feels she is being generous by giving me half the equity just to get rid of me. I did work with equal pay the first 4 years we were together.


That statement right there is enough to let you know that you will need a lawyer to help with your asset split. You are entitled to half the equity. It's not generosity to give you what you are entitled to.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

HotAirBaloon14 said:


> Yea when we tried to talk about it this past weekend*, she made several comments about how I didnt earn anything around the house.* *She feels she is being generous by giving me half the equity just to get rid of me.* I did work with equal pay the first 4 years we were together.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


Didn't earn anything? So what?

If the roles were reversed with a stay-at-home mom, do you think that the stay-at-home woman would get so little and also lose primary custody? NO WAY!

Just reverse the roles. It will become obvious how unfair her proposal is. 

Lawyer up. The fact that you would even CONTEMPLATE her proposal means that you don't have the right perspective. You are vulnerable to her double-talk, as shown by your consideration of her ridiculous proposal.

You get a share of her retirement. That's federal LAW. 

You were the stay at home dad, and you should have the edge for primary custody. 

She isn't "giving" you half the assets, like that's a big concession on her part. That's your RIGHT in a community property state. 

She's hypnotizing you with her ridiculous rationalizations. Don't fall for it. I think the only way you can avoid getting sucked into her schemes is to have an experienced, impartial attorney calling the shots for you.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

My ex-wife and I used legal zoom. I was over the top generous. I was going to give her $90,000 equity of a $170,000 house. all she had to do was transfer the loan in her name. If her family wanted to help, I was ok with that. I also gave her enough child support to help her get approved. If she didn't get the mortgage, we would sell it and split the profit. it was stated in the decree. WE ENDED UP SELLING.

We never tried to screw each other over. She was the SAHM and never bother to keep a job even when she knew we were going to divorce. Even after our daughter graduates in three years, more than likely, I will continue to help her if I am able to. Divorce doesn't have to be a blood bath. If we had attorneys, it would've been a fight to the death... Most of all, we both got what we wanted.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Trickster said:


> My ex-wife and I used legal zoom. I was over the top generous. I was going to give her $90,000 equity of a $170,000 house. all she had to do was transfer the loan in her name. If her family wanted to help, I was ok with that. I also gave her enough child support to help her get approved. If she didn't get the mortgage, we would sell it and split the profit. it was stated in the decree. WE ENDED UP SELLING.
> 
> We never tried to screw each other over. She was the SAHM and never bother to keep a job even when she knew we were going to divorce. Even after our daughter graduates in three years, more than likely, I will continue to help her if I am able to. Divorce doesn't have to be a blood bath. If we had attorneys, it would've been a fight to the death... Most of all, we both got what we wanted.


She has set the tone by listing the house without a discussion and fighting about what he didn’t do or earn. His story already sounds completely different than yours.

Legal Zoom doesn’t cover “here take this, you better like it and I get the child.”


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

HotAirBaloon14 said:


> Yea when we tried to talk about it this past weekend, she made several comments about how I didnt earn anything around the house. She feels she is being generous by giving me half the equity just to get rid of me. I did work with equal pay the first 4 years we were together.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


I dont know if youre still here, but GET A LAWYER... NOW!! She is trying to screw you already! You are entitled to HALF! And now way does she get custody, either. I hope you have listened to the advice here!


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

I am not a lawyer and I don't have the whole picture, but I agree there are signs she is out of touch and getting pushy, so get a lawyer. 

But just like having a gun doesn't mean you have to shoot anybody, having a lawyer doesn't mean you have to turn this into a fight. In fact, in both situations a bully may realize he isn't going to be able to push you around. But just like you shouldn't wave your gun around, don't try to push her around either. Try to get her to see reason and use the lawyer to find out legal positions and your options. If he just wants to start a bloodbath, fire him.


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## timcarp1964 (Mar 26, 2019)

So I kinda understand it from your wife's perspective, but I am inserting my own story here. You were/are a SATD? Who's decision was that? Yours only? Did you guys agree on that at the time? How long have worked at home? Did you work at home besides raising a child? 
My wife became a SATM - her choice but we agreed she would go back to work force later. She never did despite my constant pleading. She also is the spender in the relationship and wouldn't save one dime. I would probably save everything, so I need someone to balance me. That said I still contribute to an IRA every year for her while she fusses at me increasing my 401K savings. Are you the spender? What have you done yourself to save for retirement?
That said when we divorce I will give her 50% of everything including retirement. However we have been together a lot longer than you I imagine.


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## jlcrome (Nov 5, 2017)

Lawyer's are not going to be bias they most likely have to go by the law when it comes to division. Just negoitiate as much as you can and if you don't feel good about the outcome put pressure on her to get a lawyer. Agree as much as possible and make an agreement to it in return she has to pay lawyer's fee court cost and divorce cost. That will be a few thousands.......unless you sitting on 100,000 dollars?????


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## jlcrome (Nov 5, 2017)

Lawyer's are not your superheros they are not going to get the best deal for you or vise versa. They have to go strictly what the law states and divide equally. But in your situation kid, house, bank account, debt, etc... A lawyer might help navigate this


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

jlcrome said:


> Lawyer's are not your superheros they are not going to get the best deal for you or vise versa.


 By law they are obligated to act in their client's best interests, though "best interest" isn't always clear. If they do something clearly not in their client's best interest, like accepting a payment from his adversary to give him wrong advice, they may well get disbarred.


> They have to go strictly what the law states and divide equally.


The law isn't black and white about everything, which is why there is so much work for divorce attorneys. Sure, the court has final say, but to me it seems like they allow a lot of shenanigans before they issue a ruling.

A contentious divorce will eat up a lot of lawyer fees, which is bad for the couple and good for the lawyers. Unscrupulous lawyers will try to make this happen, often by giving their client an unrealistically rosy estimation of how a fight will play out for him/her.


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## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

SpinyNorman said:


> A contentious divorce will eat up a lot of lawyer fees, which is bad for the couple and good for the lawyers. Unscrupulous lawyers will try to make this happen, often by giving their client an unrealistically rosy estimation of how a fight will play out for him/her.



I went to an initial meeting with a lawyer to inquire about getting the QDRO (IRA/401k) portion of my separation agreement done. 
The first thing he told me is he was going to have to restart negotiations with my STBXW because the agreement was not legally binding (despite being professionally drawn up, signed by both parties and notarized).

He wanted 3000 in escrow to "begin" and said the QDRO part of it would be about 2Gs..

I left, next lawyer said the other one was full of @#[email protected]

Of course he quoted me $1500 for the QDRO and a slight amendment to the separation agreement because the agreement stated 401k and my transfer was coming from an IRA. Ended up costing $2100


So in mediation/layer fees I spent about....

400 in consultation fees
1800 for Mediation/separation agreement
2100 for lawyer for the QDRO.
200 for self divorce website.

My STBXY was much more comfortable with the mediator as she did not want to pay for her own lawyer. We split all costs.

I think we saved about 50% compared to if we had both gotten lawyers and probably more if the two lawyers were working cross purpose.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

I am an accountant and not a lawyer. That said, do not listen to her. You have a lot of rights that she is glossing over. Go see a lawyer, go see a lot of them. She was the breadwinner, and custody in most jurisdictions is 50/50. So she thinks that as the greater income earner, it gives her the right to run right over you. NFW. Period. She will owe you both child support and spousal support. All assets will be divided 50/50. Depending on the length of the relationship she will have to section a portion of her retirement and grant it to you. DO NOT LISTEN TO YOUR WIFE. She is out for herself, and out to put you under a bridge. Get a lawyer today, and wait for the fireworks. Had one guy give me **** because, "You allowed her to grow a goddamned brain, now she actually wants stuff. I could have gotten away with giving her nothing. YOU ARE A GODDAMNED TRAITOR TO MEN. I laughed at him, and promised that as his wife's rep, in concert with her lawyer, we would oversee his bowels being reamed out in the courtroom. I got called a mf'er. Not the first time, won't be the last.


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