# Looking for perspective



## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Hello everyone,

I found this site a few weeks ago and have been reading threads and would like some perspective on my own marriage.

I am 100% sure that I will miss a few details, but I will try to get as much of my perspective down as possible.

I am a 39M who has been married to 36F for 10 years. We have always been a bit rocky. I met her when she was 20 or 21(?) Back in 2007 when I had just gotten home from a deployment. She had become friends with my sister and had met my whole family before I met her.

Anyways, we dated off and on from 07 to summer 08. She had dumped me a couple times during this period (sex before marriage)

I reconnected with her in 2010 after a year long relationship with another girl.

In 2012 I deployed again, and when I get home I proposed. We fly out to Honolulu for a destination wedding a month or 2 later and it's great. The Elopement was fantastic. Married at 5am on Sand beach. Great wedding pics.

She got hammered that night when we went on a booze cruise and was unable to perform on our wedding night. Trashed. We had a great time that day!

Honestly not a big deal at the time, but holy **** did it set the tone.

Now bare in mind that my experience is a completely one sided endeavor coming from an emotionally immature guy. I have 3 sisters 1 older and 2 younger. When I was growing up it was "suck it up" and "quit feeling sorry for yourself". So that's how I had always dealt with **** till I started to learn a better way with a bit of MC and IC, books/postcasts at the age of 36. I feel like the majority of my emotional growth has happened within the last year.

So we married in 2012, after 5 years on again off again. Things were pretty great off the bat married life. We had our son in 2014. Absolutely life changing. We bonded, struggled, and grew as a couple. Life was easy, life was complicated, life was bliss.

End of 2015-2016 she had 2 miscarriages.

At that time, I felt horrible about it. I felt like any father and husband would, but I sucked at deep intimate conversations and probably told her she'd get over it or something, and I was sorry. I don't really remember anything particular that I said, but Im 100% sure that I wasn't there for emotionally. I didn't know how to be, and deep **** to that point made me so uncomfortable, because I didn't know how to respond. I'd always try to comfort or minimize instead of actually empathize. And it was dismissive. I had heard from her for years that she felt dismissed all the time and it caused her so much distress. At the time i was so confused.

It literally took me 36 or 37 years of my life to learn this. That I am a dismissive dipshit who has the emotional depth of a toddler.

Sadly not even the horrible guilt of feeling like I couldn't emotionally support my wife through 2 miscarriages was enough to prompt me to evolve or grow.

2 heartbreaking miscarriages in a row after sonograms.

I remember the nurse showing us the live image of the second one in the women's center and remember having a bad feeling about the baby based on her (the nurse) demeanor. Her attitude and the way she left the room abruplty just felt off, like she knew it wasn't viable. Did she know or have a feeling and just not want to say anything? It had a heartbeat but I don't remember any other movement. Is that a telltale? Maybe it's just luck of the draw. Statistically miscarriages are pretty high. They don't really warn you about that.

It was awful, as I'm sure many of you know.

In 2017 when I was deployed during the whole ISIS shenanigans, I left for the middle east 5 months after my daughter was born. My son was 3. My wife at that time was a SAHM.

I really was emotionally incompetent, (i really cant stress this enough, all my relationships were shallow at this time, even with my family) and to this day, it's one of my biggest regrets as far as my lack of emotionally supporting my wife. I've told her as such in recent years.

Unfortunately my dumb ass didn't really know how to express that without trying to comfort the women who just went through that twice in a row and instead sort of "let her grieve".

I wasn't there for her during the miscarriages and I wasn't there for her when I was deployed and she was at our brand new home I bought us(in 2016) with our 2 kids. She would call me to vent about her struggles and after several weeks of her venting of her difficulties, instead of just listening and empathizing I told her she needed to just be able to deal with it and stop stressing me out with her inability to cope with 2 kids. Its not like that's a hard job, staying home and rearing babies compared to being in a literal warzone right? I was dumb an naive.

Well I ****ed that one up and I recognize that now. I get home in 2018, but I'm still gone half the time working. ****s just off between us. Our intimacy begins to deteriorate.

I'm a good dad for my kids I change diapers, I do my share of bedtimes (most of the time when I'm home) read to them etc. I'm involved. No question.

She wants me to do more housework. I grumble but comply. I do dishes when I'm home. I sweep and mop, vacuum etc. Never quite to her standard bc there's always 1 aspect that isn't done. Always. I'm half assing it, everytime. Doesn't matter if I did an hour of work and it would take her 2 minutes to get it to where she's happy with it. Doesn't matter. ****s wrong. I never really did dial that in for her.

It was end of 2018 iirc when we were really struggling. Really not connecting at all and she was really depressed. I told her she needed IC and she was incharge of her own happiness. She wanted me to go with her. I couldn't see why.

I was providing everything for her, she had no reason to be unhappy with us. We had fairly regular good sex even then, but it was declining in frequency and attitude by this point as you can imagine.

Before I left for the middle east in 2017, we were having the most intimate and soul intertwining sex. There is one particular session a week before I left that I will remember as the absolute peak of my sexual existence. It was unreal. Never have we come close to that since.

Several sessions into her IC, she tells me that her therapist told her that she is depressed due to loss of intimacy and emotional connection in her marriage. She thinks I should join her for couples counseling. I push back. I remember thinking this guy is just going to take her side, tell me I need to change careers (I do) and fix all these things that I couldn't see at that time.
She begs me to come more times over the next few weeks and a couple months later she tells me that she basically doesn't love me romantically anymore but is still committed to our marriage.

This was a huge wakeup call for me, and I told her I would do anything to fix it including counseling.

The counseling was through the MFLAC on base and the guy was honestly pretty good, understanding, etc and had us work on a program called Emotionally Based Therapy.

I'm a slow learner,but I've been working on that vein ever since.
That therapist left the MFLAC shortly before COVID, and we never pursued another MC during covid, though she did some IC through zoom.
I had improved in some ways, but I still was being dismissive when she would want to confide in me, by telling her "don't worry about it" or "it's fine, like do this" etc.

Another big issue is my work schedule. I'm gone about half the time, but when I'm home, I'm off. I work on the oilfield now. She's said that she feels abandoned when I leave every 2 weeks, and it's hard to "let me back in"

In 2020 she began her masters degree program for her elementary teachers certification. I transferred my GI Bill to her to fund this. She felt like I was pushing this onto her, and in a way I was, but she had been expressing alot of interest in getting back into work now that are kids were getting older. We agreed that she could stop at any point if she felt too overwhelmed, but she often accused me of having forced her to do it when she was feeling overwhelmed in her course work. She just completed the entire degree in 2.5 years with a 4.0 and it was hectic and stressful for her. Especially the semester of student teaching.

Summer 2021, she went on a girl's overnight trip to a small town with alot of tourism. They went dancing and hanging at the bars and stayed at an AirBnB.

She came home and told me that she had alot of fun, danced with a few guys and that one had tried to kiss her. She said something along the lines of "Whoa I'm married!" And pulled away. She said that this particular guy had made her feel a certain kind of way, and that she had followed him on Instagram after that but felt it was inappropriate and unfollowed him the next day. She told me all this because she just wanted to be upfront and disclose everything.
I commended her honesty and told her that I don't mind her having a good time when she's out with her friends and I don't see anything wrong with her dancing with guys. I'm not a particularly jealous guy. I think I was in my teens and early 20s but I realized how toxic that was in my first relationship and now maybe I have swung too far the other way, but honestly I don't see anything wrong with that. Nor do I think it's unnatural or unhealthy for a grown woman in a monogamous relationship to find another guy attractive.

Anyways, she stated several times that she wanted me to take her dancing after that, and told me how much she loved dancing. However, later, when I actually tried to plan it, she told me she's over that now and she would rather go out to dinner or watch a show together. I've tried to get her out dancing numerous times since then, because it sounds fun even to me.

She complained to me around this time that she felt unseen and unheard.

I could never understand how she always felt I was being dismissive and become upset and distant after being so willing and open to talk to her and hear her. Well I was missing the most important part and was able to grow past that after listening to "I hear you" on audible. I definitely recommend the read. It's really illuminated alot of the misconceptions I had about intimate conversations.

She started her full time position teaching a couple months ago, and her work hours have been inflated. I've been doing everything I can to support her by doing the majority of the housework, kid duty when I'm home. I'm happy to do it, and it's a n appropriate expectation that I do that.
She's told me several times lately within the last 2 months how much she's felt supported and how happy she is with everything i do to help out.

She tells me that she feels seen and heard.

She feels a little smothered at times by my attempts to connect emotionally, and has stated in the past that she had reconciled the future of our relationship to not include much of any of that.

I feel as though 4 years ago I poured almost my entire emotional capacity into her and our marriage trying to figure out how to fix this and then grow as a couple.

I know now, that I have overextended myself and put a burden on her emotionally and after reading No more Mr Nice guy, I recognize some steps that I will need to take going forward, with my behavior and attitude. I certainly have shown a few of the Nice guy traits towards my wife. Especially since I decided I had to change in 2018.

Well, we have had our ups and downs since then, and in some ways we've really improved. I think the way we communicate has done a 180 and we are much less dysfunctional.

She tells me she loves me, and that she's happy we're married, but I don't think she has really shown it in years. She gets really defensive when I tell her this. I sometimes don't know how to express myself without coming off as pathetic.

I feel like the romantic spark is gone, and she agrees but said she is unsure and unable to do anything about it right now. She said her love for me is our commitment, our child raising together etc. She thinks the spark will come back with time, and I agree that it can but it won't do it on its own.

We had an overnight getaway last night to an Airbnb that I feel like I had to drag her along for. She wasn't looking forward to it. We had a nice dinner, and I planned to take her to a bar for darts and dancing but she just wanted to go back to the Airbnb & hottub. She complained the whole time that it wasn't warm enough (99* was the max heat) and the jets were too rough. It was disappointing for me because I feel like it could have been fun an enjoyable but it was just 2 steps back.

Our physical intimacy is probly 1-4 times per month on average, but we've gone months without any.

There's more to this story, but I've written enough for 1 post.

I'd like some perspective if anyone is able to slog through that.


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

Wow....thats a lot to unpack...Welcome to TAM. Many here I'm sure will give you some sdvice...Don't let your wife go out dancing again with out you...You will thank me for this later


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Tornado907 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I found this site a few weeks ago and have been reading threads and would like some perspective on my own marriage.
> 
> ...


@Tornado907 There's a lot to process here. I would sum it all up by saying that I think you understand clearly how you got here. You pushed her away so she left (emotionally). She even (almost?) had an affair and you didn't seem to care.

In the current state there are 3 things I would do.
1. Make sure there's no one else meeting her emotional needs. It's hard to believe she would just be content having no love connection, especially if you didn't seem to mind. Your story screams long-term affair or at least high risk for one.

2. Focus on improving yourself, read Married Man Sex Life Primer to make yourself more attractive and more interesting to her.

3. Get into marriage counseling asap.

You can't somehow "force" a reset of her emotions. There's no resetting the clock on all the damage that is done. All you can do is change yourself for the better and hope it appeals to her. This worked for me.

Good luck OP.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

I would suggest getting back into EFT. 



Tornado907 said:


> I remember the nurse showing us the live image of the second one in the women's center and remember having a bad feeling about the baby based on her (the nurse) demeanor. Her attitude and the way she left the room abruplty just felt off, like she knew it wasn't viable. Did she know or have a feeling and just not want to say anything? It had a heartbeat but I don't remember any other movement. Is that a telltale?


There are quite a few tells a sonographer can see. If there was a heartbeat, the likely options are the heart rate was too low (bradycardia), the gestational sac didn't look the way it should (too small, or too large), or she had a subchorionic hematoma. None of those can diagnose a miscarriage (and don't always lead to miscarriage), but they can give an indeterminate viability status. BTDT, too many times.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Jimi007 said:


> Wow....thats a lot to unpack...Welcome to TAM. Many here I'm sure will give you some sdvice...Don't let your wife go out dancing again with out you...You will thank me for this later


Thanks, I will bear this in mind


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## BoSlander (6 mo ago)

Tornado907 said:


> I commended her honesty and told her that I don't mind her having a good time when she's out with her friends and I don't see anything wrong with her dancing with guys. I'm not a particularly jealous guy.


You’re all over the place but… the paragraph I extracted pretty much sums up your post. Why on God’s Good Earth would you be fine with your wife, not your girlfriend, YOUR WIFE, dance with other men? And WHY would you think it would be “jealousy” if you were to opine the opposite?

The way she’s reading your body language right now is that you don’t care about her and that you’re even ok with her going out and potentially getting her internal organs rearranged by some random dude.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> @Tornado907 There's a lot to process here. I would sum it all up by saying that I think you understand clearly how you got here. You pushed her away so she left (emotionally). She even (almost?) had an affair and you didn't seem to care.
> 
> In the current state there are 3 things I would do.
> 1. Make sure there's no one else meeting her emotional needs. It's hard to believe she would just be content having no love connection, especially if you didn't seem to mind. Your story screams long-term affair or at least high risk for one.
> ...


Thanks, I want to broach the topic of her getting her emotional needs met by her friends, and sisters which I believe is what she has had to resort to. I feel it is wrong to demand that she cease that since I am the one that caused it and she basically adapted to it. I know that in order for us to thrive I need to show her that she can trust me to bond to emotionally, but how does that work if our relationship was never even built on that?

I'm a pretty good looking guy and tall, and she was attracted to me initially because I was not overly emotional and was just "manly." Even though that aspect has caused a multitude of issues over the years, now I have swung the pendulum too far and I believe she feels smothered (I've only recently come to this realization and am working on correcting it) and I'm pushing her away and turning her off. We have less physical intimacy now than ever. And when we do she's not really in the mood. The last few years she has accused me of only wanting sex and I worked so hard to prove that I want emotional intimacy in equal measures and I have come off as so insecure and demanding. Like now she's the guy and I'm the needy angsty woman. It's pathetic.

As far as what you refer to as an affair. The dancing with him at the bar and the instagram thing doesn't bother me to that extent. What kind of does bother me, is that it isn't the entire story.

Her birthday was 2 weekends ago and we originally planned on doing an overnight airbnb that weekend at this place with a hottub. I found out i had to work that weekend a couple months ago, so we planned to celebrate her Bday together when I was home and she spent 1 day at the Airbnb with our kids and 1 day with 3 of those same girlfriends just a night in with fancy homemade food and desert, dip in the hot tub etc.

Well I was really happy for her that she had a great time, and was so bummed that I didn't get to experience that with her, that I booked an Airbnb for us. So I had this weekend getaway (oct 8th)planned for us, that I had to persuade her to go on basically. She expressed that she felt a little overwhelmed with work and didn't want to miss time with the kids, but she quickly agreed (to me) that she would go and it would be fun.

In the past, pretty much our entire marriage, she has had full access to my phone and I'm aware that she snoops through it fairly regularly. I don't have anything to hide. She said yesterday that she hasn't done it in a long time. Anyways with that in mind, forgive me for what I'm about to say.
I've snooped her phone once or twice too. The first time was shortly after this event where she danced with the guy at the bar.

She had told her friend, who had asked how we were doing, that she felt unseen and unheard (this prompted me to up my listening game) and how thus guy had made her feel so flattered.

I never spoke to her about this because again, I don't feel like any of that was wrong of her. This was a year and a half ago.

So fast forward to now. I wanted to know what she was telling her close friend about us, because she vents to her sometimes and i know she will give her the true extent of her feelings, where she will avoid uncomfortable topics with me unless i drag it out of her, and she wants to focus on the positive, not the negative. I asked her this question a couple weeks ago "I've been wondering what you have been telling your friends about us lately?" In a friendly tone.

Well. She felt attacked and it lead to her getting extremely defensive about it. With me backpeddling and trying to explain my reasoning for asking. She basically said that she tells them How happy she is what I've been doing around the house. I'm not so blind not notice the fact that she didn't mention any aspect of our Intimacy. I pressed her later if she felt seen and heard.

I dont know if this is appropriate but here i will share a text exchange when i was out of town for work

Texts
me: Do you feel seen and heard by me these days?
Her: I do 🤗
Me: I know that has been a big issue on my end that I've been working on. I was just wanting some feedback.
I recognize that not all the approaches I have taken have been great
Her: I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate all the extra things you've been doing since I started working! I was telling the girls about it last night
Her: Like, how you have dinner on the table when I get home and sometimes now I'm getting "in trouble" for being late to dinner (i.e. you could have called to let me know you'd be late) 😆
Her: It's eye opening for me to be on the other side of that, when I was the one waiting for you to come home for so many years
Me: You're not in trouble, but it is courteous to let your partner know what time you think you'll be home when you expect dinner at 530 😅
Her: I know.. "in trouble"= not really in trouble
Her: I feel seen in that you know how much is on my plate and you're helping me by taking some of the responsibilities off my plate when you can
Me: reply ("I know.. "in trouble"= not really in trouble") Yeah..
Me: But what about heard?
Her: I feel heard. I'm so exhausted. Reading with (son) now

So, I feel like this is an example of an emotional boundry/wall. She gets kind of fed up quickly with me asking questions, pursuing deep convo, and is always exhausted.

I cant blame her for having that wall. Maybe I'm over thinking it. But what I see is that she appreciates me for what I do for her and the family but I haven't been embraced or accepted beyond that.

So the next time I snooped her phone was Saturday morning, I wanted to glance on her convo with her friend to get an idea of what she truly thought of where we were. I didn't read much of what her friend said just sort of scrolled up glancing at what my wife had said. A couple texts stood out.

"I'm really not looking forward to an overnight stay with (ME)" another exchange where they kind of poked fun at me for wanting to take her to the bar after dinner and dance with her. And how the idea of one of the bars I had talked about was hilarious.

When I scrolled up further I saw another message my wife had sent her shortly after their girls trip 2 weeks ago

"I can't believe I said I wanted to date (guy she had danced with's full name), I was so drunk!"

At this point I started having a mini anxiety stack. I tried to calm down for a few minutes and approached my wife and told her, "hey so I snooped your phone convo with (friend)..."

She said "really? Oh what did you see?"

I said " is there anything you'd like to talk about?"

She said "are you talking about when I said I didn't want to go on the overnight, I told you the same thing, I've been so overwhelmed but I'm totally on board now I just needed to vent"

And I was like "yeah, anything else"

And she told me how during their overnight they were playing a game where they had to answer which celebrity they would go on a date with, and her answer that she blurted out was the guy. And that she was drunk. She said he's the only other guy that she's ever felt attracted to besides me, since we've been married but that she hasn't seen or heard from him since, and that he probably has no idea who she is.

I honestly believe her and I'm not upset that she is attracted to another guy. It's normal.

I told her how I felt anxious about having read that with literally no context, and expressed that I do have fears maybe her infatuation with this stranger has lined up with a decrease in our own intimacy. She seemed to ponder that but didn't really have an answer or give me much reassurance other than telling me she loved me. And that she has never pursued him (more on that in a minute) and that she feels we're in a good place.

Well. Our overnight wasn't a total disaster but we were a little on edge even after talking about that whole mess a bit. We had a nice dinner, went to the bar for 5 minutes. I had an idea that I pitched to her where I would drop her off at the bar, take the car to the airbnb and cab it back to the bar, go in and try to pick her up. Just sort of an adventurous, flirty sort of thing. At first she was open to the idea but it was 830 and she said that was too early to go to the bar. I told her we'd go check it out and decide. She said "I can't do everything you expect of me" I said I don't have any expectations I just want to spend time with you, what do you mean expect of you?

She said. I can't go to the bar and be flirty and be sexy, and go hot tubbing and have sex, and I feel alot of pressure from you.

I told her, hey, I hear you, I tried to make it clear from the get go that I don't have any expectations, even sex. I literally just want to hang out with you and connect/have fun. I told you that exact thing when I made these plans. I told you hey these are the things I'd like to do, (dinner, bar, hot tub, etc) but we don't have to do all of it, QT with you is my main objective.

So I decide to just take her back to the airbnb, we hop in the hot tub, she complains. She accuses me of staring at her tits in her bathing suit bc I was checking her out as she was getting in. She pushed me away when I tried to scoot over to her at one point. I reached for her leg that was near me and she pushed my hand off. So I just decided to drink and enjoy the tub.

The conversation was good at dinner but it sucked in the tub. I was not inappropriate in the way that I tried to initiate physical stuff, she was just not open to it. I didn't pout, I just stopped after 2 tries.

I made it clear that I was OK with no sex. She packed a vibrator toy. So I had assumed that she was interested. I made some moves and accepted it wasn't on the table or that it was going to be so hard to initiate that it wasn't going to be worth the trouble.

I've already committed to myself that I'm not going to pressure her into anything sexual.

So after she passes out a bit drunk (it was a ****ty airbnb with a full size bed, not even a queen) I pulled out the spare mattress and planned to sleep on that so she could sprawl out, I couldn't sleep. I had a nagging questions in my head. It's been a year and a half since she had seen that guy but she still remembers his FULL NAME?

So I was weak again, and I snooped her convo. It was gone, deleted. I'm like wtf. So I check our online phone bill where it shows text coming and going and from what numbers. There were 10 texts back and forth before our dinner date with her friend.

At this point I know my behavior is questionable. I'm literally spying on my wife. She said she didn't have an issue with me snooping her phone but I did feel guilty for it, but now it feels like she's hiding things and being sneaky.

In the morning were driving home, I ask her how her friend would feel about it when she tells her I snooped on their convo. She evades the question a little " I'm sure it'll probably come up, but I'm sure she wouldn't think it was weird"

At this point I'm wondering if the friend had told her to delete the convo, because as it turns out, all 3 of those women she was with have had some type of affair on their husbands in the past.

I tell her that I figure she would have already mentioned something to her friend about it bc she was a bit on edge the previous day about it. She said again. I mean "not really I'm sure it'll come up. Don't worry about, I'll talk to her at some point. " she then changed the subject.

I then got more direct. I said "I figured you had already text her about it when we were getting ready for dinner, you seemed on edge"

She got extremely uncomfortable, and said "well now I feel like youre going to spy on me" I told her I don't plan on spying on her, and I'm done snooping her phone (bc in my mind if she's hiding ****, what's the point) even though that's always been understood to be OK between us. She evades the question a bit, I remind her that she hasn't answered, and she finally admits to having texted her friend back and forth

This is basicallywhat she said the exchange was

"so... he snooped our convo"
[friend] "oh no, what did he see?" "Oh No that you weren't looking forward to the overnight? Are you still going?"
Wife: yes we're out
Wife: and about saying I wanted to date (guy) we talked about it and worked through it
Friend: oh no well I hope you guys are OK

She then admits and recognizes that deleting the texts was sneaky and dishonest and her not being honest about her reaction was dishonest and that she lied to me. She feels like I tested her. I told her "you wouldn't bat an eye at testing me if the tables were turned and you thought it was remotely necessary"

I asked her about how she remembered his full name. And how did anyone know who you were talking about. She reiterated that he's the only guy she has ever found attractive besides me and that yes she had thought about him but it's not real. She said we're real. She said she's never talked to him, but that she has looked at his social media 5 times. Once the first time, once when she showed me after she told me about it, and 3 times since. She said he likely has no idea who she is and wouldn't remember her.

so yeah. I'm still working through this. I don't think she lied to my face but she was certainly being evasive, I wanted to know why. She said it was because she didn't want it to be an issue and thought it was unhealthy that I felt the need to snoop and just wanted to get rid of it so it wasn't an issue. She said she knows she probably just made it worse.

This morning was awkward. She is distant. I told her last night that it's hard to feel unloved. She doesn't think that there is anything that she can or wants to do to change. She is focusing on her career and children for now but is committed to our marriage.

This morning was awkward. She was distant. More so than usual.

I'm not trying to villify my wife here. I know that you guys would have been screaming for her to divorce me years ago if she had posted here first. I'm just giving an account through my eyes.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

I'm sorry it's taking me so long but I will respond to everyone. It takes me alot of time to type every thing out


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

bobert said:


> I would suggest getting back into EFT.
> 
> 
> There are quite a few tells a sonographer can see. If there was a heartbeat, the likely options are the heart rate was too low (bradycardia), the gestational sac didn't look the way it should (too small, or too large), or she had a subchorionic hematoma. None of those can diagnose a miscarriage (and don't always lead to miscarriage), but they can give an indeterminate viability status. BTDT, too many times.


I have already contacted a MC for emotional bonding.

Thanks for the info on sonograms.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Tornado907 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I found this site a few weeks ago and have been reading threads and would like some perspective on my own marriage.
> 
> ...


The important thing is that you guys have been working on this. You're not going to make progress at the same time. When I first started reading your post about you not being able to communicate, essentially, I was thinking, you should have written it out and told her exactly what you said here about your fears about not communicating and connecting well enough. Glad you made some progress there. It is a big issue in a lot of marriages. 

Change is hard. It takes time. Now she has this new career taking up a lot of her brain space. The chips may not all fall in alignment, but you are both still changing and trying. 

Once a week isn't unusual for people who are married a long time (especially considering you're out of town so much.) Not saying you should suck it up necessarily, but as a couple, that does not make you a freakishly unsexual couple. You can read lots of stats about that. Twice a week is close to average, but that is with two people who are not separated part of the time. 

I grew up on the edge of an air force base, so I heard a lot of stories about the emotional hardships of deployment. Heard it from the kids, heard it from some adults. What happens is the spouse who stays home, whether it's even in their nature or not, has to evolve to be able to hold the fort down, so to speak all on their own when the deployed spouse is gone. Then when the deployed spouse comes home (or the oil rig worker), they often come in expecting things to go according to their nature or their natural plan of order -- and that's not going to happen. The schedule and domestic living details are already in place and you can't expect them to yo-yo and bring all that down when you get home. That's the main complaint I heard. The other one that I heard mostly from children is that dad (this was in the 1960s) came home and was too rigid and upset the applecart that way. 

So of course the adjustment isn't seamless. Like all relationships (and then some) it has some resentments on both sides, and more logistics problems than normal to boot. It's a challenge. I'm sure you'd love to be able to come home finally and put your feet up because you deserve it -- but guess what? So does she. She's been carrying the load while you're gone so when you come home, she'd love to put her feet up. Hopefully you're both mature enough to accept that neither one of those scenarios is feasible. 

You come home and missed your wife and may feel like the homecoming ought to be something of a honeymoon, but life marched on while you were gone. One thing I would say, though, is that you never know, you might get along better because you're gone a lot than you would if you were home all the time. Depends on the couple.

Your issue started with a communication problem and you've worked on it, but I'm sure it's still there (probably on both ends), and communication and keeping that wire open between you two is going to be your best chance of making the marriage work and finding your marriage groove. If that means you need to keep up periodic marriage counseling, do it! 

You will find lots of threads on here to advise you how seduction for a woman is different than for a man and how important it is to give attention and listen whether you're there or not and certainly not reserve that for when you are ready to have sex. Women need to feel you like them and want to spend time with them. I know you're having issues with that now too, but don't give up on it. I guess when she went dancing before she wasn't tired, but now she has a fuller life and just wants to relax. Don't take that personally. Maybe it will happen sometime. 

Good luck.


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

I know you have a lot to say, but I would suggest abbreviating your posts. You’ll get more replies that way.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Tornado907 said:


> Thanks, I want to broach the topic of her getting her emotional needs met by her friends, and sisters which I believe is what she has had to resort to. I feel it is wrong to demand that she cease that since I am the one that caused it and she basically adapted to it. I know that in order for us to thrive I need to show her that she can trust me to bond to emotionally, but how does that work if our relationship was never even built on that?
> I'm a pretty good looking guy and tall, and she was attracted to me initially because I was not overly emotional and was just "manly." Even though that aspect has caused a multitude of issues over the years, now I have swung the pendulum too far and I believe she feels smothered (I've only recently come to this realization and am working on correcting it) and I'm pushing her away and turning her off. We have less physical intimacy now than ever. And when we do she's not really in the mood. The last few years she has accused me of only wanting sex and I worked so hard to prove that I want emotional intimacy in equal measures and I have come off as so insecure and demanding. Like now she's the guy and I'm the needy angsty woman. It's pathetic.
> 
> As far as what you refer to as an affair. The dancing with him at the bar and the instagram thing doesn't bother me to that extent. What kind of does bother me, is that it isn't the entire story.
> ...


This is all so sad. Everything says your wife isn't into you anymore. You are a roommate/coparent to her. She complained you were checking her boobs out while getting in the hot tub together? You are her husband, her sexual partner, of course you were checking her out. That kind of behavior says more than any words can say. She doesn't want to go away with you for a weekend and even complains about it to friends. She is obviously enamored with her dancing buddy. She is capable of lying to you. There is nothing left here really. I know that is harsh, but that is all I am seeing, a totally soured marriage.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

SCDad01 said:


> I know you have a lot to say, but I would suggest abbreviating your posts. You’ll get more replies that way.


I hear you. I have alot to say, and I don't care about number of replies


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

Holy Cats ****.....Thats a lot to unpack.. like I said in my 1st post to you. Don't let your wife go out dancing without you... 

You said you are OK with your wife dancing with other guys....

That's a really bad idea....Especially with co workers ect.

Sounds like you need to have a really clear talk to your wife about boundaries. 

Don't be stupid...she would never do that...Booze and hot guys ...Think about that. 

You don't want your wife dancing with anyone other than you...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Dude, she's throwing up more red flags than a ccp parade.

She sure as hell doesn't respect you or look at you as her man.

She has no problem letting loose with her friends and likes spending fun time with everyone but not you?

She reluctantly goes on an ABnB getaway with you, jokes about your efforts to her friend, brings a vibrator and puts the ice wall up about sex?

You are Mr. Nice guy!

It's good that you wanted to work on your marriage but she has had her issues as well and I don't see her fixing her bullshyt.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Jimi007 said:


> Holy Cats ****.....Thats a lot to unpack.. like I said in my 1st post to you. Don't let your wife go out dancing without you...
> 
> You said you are OK with your wife dancing with other guys....
> 
> ...


I see that now


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

This hurts my soul deeply. What I wouldn't have given for my husband to have seen these things in our marriage. So first I commend you for your extraordinary insight to your contribution to the situation you are in. The only thing I can suggest is keep trying even with it being exhausting. Until the point comes where she literally tells you, I don't want you to try anymore. 

Now many will disagree, say don't waste you're time, ect. They aren't wrong, it's just .. really you have to decide how much longer you're willing wait or how much further you an go. If you want to speed things up, then it's time to just flat ask out her. You can ask in a non-defensive way, but if you're brave, ask her if she's done. Assure her you aren't if that's how you feel. I wish I could help, this probably isn't helpful.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

DownByTheRiver said:


> The important thing is that you guys have been working on this. You're not going to make progress at the same time. When I first started reading your post about you not being able to communicate, essentially, I was thinking, you should have written it out and told her exactly what you said here about your fears about not communicating and connecting well enough. Glad you made some progress there. It is a big issue in a lot of marriages.
> 
> Change is hard. It takes time. Now she has this new career taking up a lot of her brain space. The chips may not all fall in alignment, but you are both still changing and trying.
> 
> ...


This is a perspective I needed to hear, and honestly my wife has told me all this before, but maybe not always when I needed to hear it


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> This hurts my soul deeply. What I wouldn't have given for my husband to have seen these things in our marriage. So first I commend you for your extraordinary insight to your contribution to the situation you are in. The only thing I can suggest is keep trying even with it being exhausting. Until the point comes where she literally tells you, I don't want you to try anymore.
> 
> Now many will disagree, say don't waste you're time, ect. They aren't wrong, it's just .. really you have to decide how much longer you're willing wait or how much further you an go. If you want to speed things up, then it's time to just flat ask out her. You can ask in a non-defensive way, but if you're brave, ask her if she's done. Assure her you aren't if that's how you feel. I wish I could help, this probably isn't helpful.


It is helpful. I have asked her if she's done. She said she's committed to our marriage. She says she loves me. She doesn't understand why the small gestures she does aren't enough. She wrote me a card last week so it's not like she does nothing, it just feels like breadcrumbs sometimes when she pushes me away so hard when I try to be loving toward her.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Tornado,

Sorry you are in this situation. Her getting upset about you providing sexual attention, claiming to her friend that she doesn't want to take a trip with you... that is harsh.... she is definitely checked out of the marriage. Does it relate to what you've done in the past, maybe. But she is basically saying there is no chance and it is very clear that you are really trying.

She seems to not want to let you in. You are not the first person she goes to for emotional support. It is really tough to overcome that monster.

I think no more mr nice guy type changes are probably your only chance.

At this point, you are chasing your wife, and she is running from you. This is not healthy.

Perhaps she needs a wake up a call. Sometimes you have to be willing to lose the relationship to get it back.

She has the power because she cares about the relationship less than you do. When you care the least, you will have some negotiating power.

You need to decide what you are willing to accept as a relationship... currently, she is dribbling out breadcrumbs just enough to keep you around.

I would stop chasing. You can't control her, you can only control you. Become your most attractive self, this will be good for you if the relationship recovers or if it doesn't.

Do not rely on her for your happiness.... you are the one in charge of that. If she doesn't want to get on board with the two of you working together to have a good marriage, then perhaps she should abandon ship... life is short, don't waste it.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Tornado907 said:


> This is a perspective I needed to hear, and honestly my wife has told me all this before, but maybe not always when I needed to hear it


Most marriages don't become ideal for either partner. Marriage is compromise and that means neither one of you are always getting everything you want.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Most marriages don't become ideal for either partner. Marriage is compromise and that means neither one of you are always getting everything you want.


This is very true. I will continue to apply myself and be patient with her. I caused all this in the beginning and I can't force her to want it.
I told her tonight that I want her to come to me first for emotional support and she thought about it for a minute and agreed.
She told me she is showing me love in her own ways right now, (which is all I did for years) and I see that in some ways. 
I think alot of what is happening is that I am projecting alot of my insecurity onto her, and I have just gone overboard on my emotional growth


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Tornado907 said:


> This is very true. I will continue to apply myself and be patient with her. I caused all this in the beginning and I can't force her to want it.
> I told her tonight that I want her to come to me first for emotional support and she thought about it for a minute and agreed.
> She told me she is showing me love in her own ways right now, (which is all I did for years) and I see that in some ways.
> I think alot of what is happening is that I am projecting alot of my insecurity onto her, and I have just gone overboard on my emotional growth


Seriously?

She shows you her love by making fun of you to her friends, going out dancing with other men but not you, doesn't even want to spend time with you, prefers her vibrator on a romantic weekend with you and gets you backpedaling about wanting sex with her?

You do not have a good grasp of reality if you are buying this load of crap.

Maybe get your T levels checked and stop bending over backwards.

I hardly do any household chores and I get about a thousand times better treatment than you.

Chores do not equate to sexual attraction.

My wife doesn't even mess with toys (though I thought some could be fun) because she doesn't want to waste any intimacy on anything but me.

She has placed you on a leash and your her good little boy, turning into a roommate, babysitting housekeeper.

I'm not even putting all this on her because you crawled so far down a rabbit hole you wound up in your rectum.

I've been with my wife for 31 years so I'm not just a dog, barking without a bone.

I know what I'm talking about.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

I read your posts. The biggest thing that jumps out at me is she saw other guys, told you about it, and you didn't care. Now she has checked out and you are OK with no sex and she is being secretive.

You gotta realize that it is not only Ok to be jealous but expected! If you don't get 100% of her then it should be a huge problem. 

Stop checking up on her if she feels heard and stuff and take care of the more urgent issue of the affair. Who cares if she gets dinner or feels heard if she is seeing other guys?


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> @Tornado907
> In the current state there are 3 things I would do.
> 1. Make sure there's no one else meeting her emotional needs. It's hard to believe she would just be content having no love connection, especially if you didn't seem to mind. Your story screams long-term affair or at least high risk for one.
> 
> ...


These are solid recommendations based off what I'm reading OP say. He needs to self improve ASAP. She was begging him to go to counseling. @Tornado907 it's not about taking sides at that point when she said that. It was a plea for help.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Tornado907 said:


> ......Now bare in mind that my experience is a completely one sided endeavor coming from an emotionally immature guy. I have 3 sisters 1 older and 2 younger. When I was growing up it was "suck it up" and "quit feeling sorry for yourself". So that's how I had always dealt with **** till I started to learn a better way with a bit of MC and IC, books/postcasts at the age of 36. I feel like the majority of my emotional growth has happened within the last year.
> 
> ....2 heartbreaking miscarriages in a row after sonograms.
> 
> ...


Wow even trying to focus on just a few things this is so much. 

First, let me tell you that I too was a Nice Guy. Sue Johnson's approach (Emotionally Focused Therapy) is one of the best marriage counseling approaches. I also like marriage counselors who are Gottman trained as well. You need to read Glover's NMMNG again, and focus on covert contracts and Getting a Life.

From what you have posted you are doing everything right. Keep it up. And yes get back to marriage counseling.

It is clear that your wife and your two children are important to you. Having all those sisters growing up, you had little choice in being a Nice Guy. Going into the Military even further documents you as a Nice Guy. You have come a long way, but you and your wife (the mother of your children) need to reconnect. 

I think you know what the issues are. You know generally what you need to do. As the Nike commercial says, "Just do It."

Good luck to you. Remember that it takes two to make a marriage. Work at making sure your wife is committed to saving and building your marriage.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Young at Heart said:


> Wow even trying to focus on just a few things this is so much.
> 
> First, let me tell you that I too was a Nice Guy. Sue Johnson's approach (Emotionally Focused Therapy) is one of the best marriage counseling approaches. I also like marriage counselors who are Gottman trained as well. You need to read Glover's NMMNG again, and focus on covert contracts and Getting a Life.
> 
> ...


She is. We talked today. I told her I scheduled therapy, but it won't initially line up with her schedule at work due the being booked up. I told her i know I've gotten too emotional and I'm only asking that she let me be who she comes to for emotional support from now on.
She's very blunt, she grabbed my hand and put it on her tits and said I like sex with you and I'd probably be turned on more often if you cut it out with all the emotional ****.
Anyways we had great sex. I'll go back to therapy and read NMMNG again.
Our marriage ain't perfect but we're both committed, and there is a learning curve to embracing your emotional side for me. I definitely have some work to do with books and counseling.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Loves Coffee said:


> I read your posts. The biggest thing that jumps out at me is she saw other guys, told you about it, and you didn't care. Now she has checked out and you are OK with no sex and she is being secretive.
> 
> You gotta realize that it is not only Ok to be jealous but expected! If you don't get 100% of her then it should be a huge problem.
> 
> Stop checking up on her if she feels heard and stuff and take care of the more urgent issue of the affair. Who cares if she gets dinner or feels heard if she is seeing other guys?


I can't really see how swing dancing with another male during live folk music can be considered an affair. I never have considered it to be an affair. She was being a little secretive after i called her on it, but if i put myself in her shoes i can understand why. Ultimately she didn't lie to my face about it.

I told her im not OK with her dancing with other people if she isn't going to go dancing with me.
She said, I'm not going to a dance club period, you understand that right? I don't go to dance clubs to dance. They don't have swing dancing at those bars.
apparently I was wanting to take her to a trashy dance club and that's what they were making fun of.
Last year was a folk music festival, and they really only have those in the summer at hippie joints.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Loves Coffee said:


> These are solid recommendations based off what I'm reading OP say. He needs to self improve ASAP. She was begging him to go to counseling. @Tornado907 it's not about taking sides at that point when she said that. It was a plea for help.


I know, she begged me to go and I dragged my feet years ago we went a bit but it was all so new to me, the EFT system helped but I'm a slow learner. This was 2019 iirc.
We actually went 3 times to MC this summer for Communication, and it helped alot. We've actually drastically improved our communication dysfunction this year believe it or not.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> Seriously?
> 
> She shows you her love by making fun of you to her friends, going out dancing with other men but not you, doesn't even want to spend time with you, prefers her vibrator on a romantic weekend with you and gets you backpedaling about wanting sex with her?
> 
> ...


Well you seem to have it all figured out, you should write a book.

I should actually get my T levels checked it's been a few years and I was on the lowish side like 250 iirc


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## BoSlander (6 mo ago)

Tornado907 said:


> Well you seem to have it all figured out, you should write a book.
> 
> I should actually get my T levels checked it's been a few years and I was on the lowish side like 250 iirc


Friend, you’re being given advise. Many here were in your shoes and can give you valuable input. Take it as that, input, not criticism.

First issue I see is your body language… I mean, you let your wife take part in an intimate act (dancing) and think it’s “cute” and open minded, not realizing that your wife feels like you don’t care. It’s not about what YOU think or what YOU think others may perceive you as, it’s that YOUR wife derives some of her self-worth from knowing her man will defend her when other men seek intimate moments with her.

Don’t get your modern man panties twisted: most females LOVE IT when their men get jealous.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with a healthy dose of jealousy.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

Tornado907 said:


> I can't really see how swing dancing with another male during live folk music can be considered an affair. I never have considered it to be an affair
> 
> ...
> 
> She came home and told me that she had alot of fun, danced with a few guys and that one had tried to kiss her. She said something along the lines of "Whoa I'm married!" And pulled away. She said that this particular guy had made her feel a certain kind of way, and that she had followed him on Instagram after that but felt it was inappropriate and unfollowed him the next day. She told me all this because she just wanted to be upfront and disclose everything.


Dang man, really? It doesn't have to be an affair. You are so close to the edge and don't even know it. Following on instagram after the dance and then deleting texts is more than just dancing. That's a whole nother level. You fill in the blanks. If she's not having emotional affairs or sexual ones, she is one step from them. 



Tornado907 said:


> and said I like sex with you and I'd probably be turned on more often if you cut it out with all the emotional ****.


and you're not listening. Be lucky she's so blunt with you to try to get through to you. You have to start paying more attention.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

Tornado907 said:


> I should actually get my T levels checked it's been a few years and I was on the lowish side like 250 iirc


That's incredibly low. 



BoSlander said:


> Friend, you’re being given advise. Many here were in your shoes and can give you valuable input. Take it as that, input, not criticism.


I mirror BoSlander's advice. I don't agree with everyone who posts here at TAM, but you have been given good advice in my opinion. @ConanHub does have it figured out, by the way


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Tornado907 said:


> Well you seem to have it all figured out, you should write a book.


There is a book already. MMSLP. Read it.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Well that was.....ALOT.

Out of all of it, this is what pops out at me.



Tornado907 said:


> Summer 2021, she went on a girl's overnight trip to a small town with alot of tourism. They went dancing and hanging at the bars and stayed at an AirBnB.
> 
> She came home and told me that she had alot of fun, danced with a few guys and that one had tried to kiss her. She said something along the lines of "Whoa I'm married!" And pulled away. She said that this particular guy had made her feel a certain kind of way, and that she had followed him on Instagram after that but felt it was inappropriate and unfollowed him the next day. She told me all this because she just wanted to be upfront and disclose everything.


Well I commend her for coming forward with it. But the girl's nights out should be over, at least nights out like that. She has proven she really can't be trusted. And newsflash, she doesn't say "Whoa I'm married", pulls away, then says he made her feel all tingly inside and follows him on social media. Not the way that works.

She told you that she pulled away and said that to make you think you can trust her.



> I commended her honesty and told her that I don't mind her having a good time when she's out with her friends and I don't see anything wrong with her dancing with guys.


There is a reason they want to dance with guys, otherwise they'd just dance amongst themselves. You're being naive here. GNO's of that sort should now be over for her. If not, then expect to be cheated on in the future, if you haven't already, and I suspect more did happen. This is the same kind of "honesty" I got from my x-wife to delay my suspicions.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Tornado907 said:


> This is very true. I will continue to apply myself and be patient with her. I caused all this in the beginning and I can't force her to want it.
> I told her tonight that I want her to come to me first for emotional support and she thought about it for a minute and agreed.
> She told me she is showing me love in her own ways right now, (which is all I did for years) and I see that in some ways.
> I think alot of what is happening is that I am projecting alot of my insecurity onto her, and I have just gone overboard on my emotional growth


Yes you have done a lot of growth, and it just is still all sort of in flux, I imagine.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Tornado907 said:


> Well you seem to have it all figured out, you should write a book.
> 
> I should actually get my T levels checked it's been a few years and I was on the lowish side like 250 iirc


There you go getting in your feels when another man smacks you upside your head for being too much of a doormat.

My wife isn't taking a toy along for a romantic weekend and freezing me out either.

She also knows not to avoid talking to me about her concerns and talk about them with anyone else.

She also never wants to avoid spending time with me.

You can actually find a lot of my behaviors in some books that have research on the subject of men and women sexual attraction and relationships.

I'm simply attempting to get you to wake up out of whatever fog you have shoved yourself into.

Your wife has a hell of a lot of work to do as well because she is definitely damaging your marriage with her choices.

I'm reacting to your posts buddy. You're the one trying to play Mr. Mom and getting the results you have.

Work around the house and childcare are necessities, not aphrodisiacs.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> There you go getting in your feels when another man smacks you upside your head for being too much of a doormat.
> 
> My wife isn't taking a toy along for a romantic weekend and freezing me out either.
> 
> ...


I'm not upset about what you wrote, I'm sure some of it was spot on. I think you're also making alot of assumptions. Never did I say that chores were an aphrodisiac. I do chores because she works alot during the week and I'm completely off work for 2 weeks at a time. I was just trying to illustrate that I'm not a deadbeat.
I read your post and appreciated your honesty. Even if I didn't think it all applied to my situation


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> There is a book already. MMSLP. Read it.


I'll read this one soon


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

BoSlander said:


> Friend, you’re being given advise. Many here were in your shoes and can give you valuable input. Take it as that, input, not criticism.
> 
> First issue I see is your body language… I mean, you let your wife take part in an intimate act (dancing) and think it’s “cute” and open minded, not realizing that your wife feels like you don’t care. It’s not about what YOU think or what YOU think others may perceive you as, it’s that YOUR wife derives some of her self-worth from knowing her man will defend her when other men seek intimate moments with her.
> 
> ...


I hear you man, I don't think my panties got twisted, but I can see how you might think that. I came on here fully expecting and ready to receive all kinds of perspectives and that's what I need.
The dancing didn't bother me, but I am reevaluating that. Obviously her having a crush that lasted so long on a dancing partner wasn't expected. I'm pretty jealous now, though I don't think that she betrayed me because I allowed this. I will make it clear that I don't approve of that.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

It seems that your life's inability to understand relationships/women (at least with your wife) has gotten you to where you are at this moment. Obviously, your lack of emotional involvement at first with your wife killed her emotional attachment to you (extremely hard to get that back), so in essence although not impossible, for all intended purposes you wife is most likely a goner.

Secondly, upon your realization of how bad you ****up, now you drastically did a 180, which coming from you to her it most be if not repugnant, at least very uncomfortable to feel your physical presence. Women are not like us dude where we just see a glimpse of a tit and we are all hot and bother. They need to feel at least something, otherwise they put up for duty, or a sense of force obligation. You went from being the :stud" to the supplicant Beta dude. That right there is such a turn off for most women (in case you haven't realized it...yet).

Third, Reality. The reality in your life is that you have a wife that although she's not a "walk away" wife, she's basically gone, and whatever she's doing is because she feels coerced by you to try something, but she knows that that's not what she any longer wants. You need to realize this, and convey to your wife that if that's how she feels you are ready to move on. Offer her divorce...better yet why don't you just hand her a copy of divorce papers and tell her...I clearly understand that I lost you, so here are the papers, I want you to be happy. Take a dose of courage and do it. if that doesn't shock her back, then right there and them you will have your answer.

The point is to do something strong to make or break the relationship. Your supplicant, almost fake (to her) emotional attachment, and deference to her will do little other than wasting your life away on a futile quest. I you don't believe me read here on these forums and/or other sites the "walk away" wife syndrome as presented by thousands of posters, males and females where the wife explains why she's walking away and the males are here desperate seeking (too late) for a way to get their wife's love again. Almost in every instance (as evidenced by the end results of these posts) it is too late. In other words, your life. You need to take stock on it and decide if you want to continue being the rug sweeper by discarding your self respect, pride, and dignity and stay. Or if you want a new life where none of this would matter because you will be starting anew with all the experience and knowledge for a successful relationship. It's just that realistically, I can't see where you can any longer get that with your wife. TOO LATE.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

SCDad01 said:


> I know you have a lot to say, but I would suggest abbreviating your posts. You’ll get more replies that way.


I was thinking same. Cliff notes only, better.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Tornado907 said:


> I hear you man, I don't think my panties got twisted, but I can see how you might think that. I came on here fully expecting and ready to receive all kinds of perspectives and that's what I need.
> The dancing didn't bother me, but I am reevaluating that. Obviously her having a crush that lasted so long on a dancing partner wasn't expected. I'm pretty jealous now, though I don't think that she betrayed me because I allowed this. I will make it clear that I don't approve of that.


You saying it's your fault has me flabbergasted. 
I couldn't get through the rest, honestly.


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## BoSlander (6 mo ago)

Tornado907 said:


> The dancing didn't bother me


It should.

Body language speaks volumes.


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## blackclover3 (Apr 23, 2021)

@Tornado907 

let me say this, it is ok to snoop on your spouse phone anytime, there is no such thing about privacy. I read my wife and she read mine. I dont have anything to hide and she doesnt 

back to your posts

She danced with a guy and he tried to kiss - she was drunk/NotDrunk and pushed and said she is married - but still remember his full name - she told you about the incident. 

*Point 1- *
She danced with a guy and he tried to kiss and pushed him away = I danced intimately with a guy and had a make out session and he touched her body everywhere (highly they went to his car and you know what happened) . but someone that she doesn't full trust saw her so she decided to take preventive measure and tell you her version of story. 

*Point 2- *
Still remember his FULL NAME - means she still on contact with him, things had been physical for a period of time and may be she dumped him or dumped her. The fact that she rejected you in the hot tub, removed your hand, mad you started at her chest and pushed a way means: 1- she is still physical with the guy and in love with him and consider you as the affair partner 2- or she is getting physical from someone else and even her friends dont know about.
Now think for a second: she allowed another attractive guy to dance with her and touch her but she is not allowing you to touch her leg or stare at her chest?

what support my points
1- everything you said - and not being physical with your own wife after take her into Airbnb and sleeping on the floor. really dude - think for a minute here
2- her friends they talk to all or most had some kind of affairs on their husbands 
3- she deleted her texts. why? she knows you know about the texts and conversation - then why delete these messages? the texts were about something else
4- the fact that her friends were making fun of you about going to dance clubs even the wrong ones and her not stopping them is very FuKed up - and shows that neither your wife or friends respect have any kind of respect for you. they meant to say "poor husband trying so hard with his wife while his wife is having fun with someone else". this alone, laughing about what you can do and provide for your wife is a deal breaker for. it will be it is either me or your friends. the fact that you allow your wife to hang out with cheaters is a bad deal 

you are being abused in this relationship and not her.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Tornado907 said:


> I'm not upset about what you wrote, I'm sure some of it was spot on. I think you're also making alot of assumptions. Never did I say that chores were an aphrodisiac. I do chores because she works alot during the week and I'm completely off work for 2 weeks at a time. I was just trying to illustrate that I'm not a deadbeat.
> I read your post and appreciated your honesty. Even if I didn't think it all applied to my situation


I'm going off your tone in writing and you were coming off as trying to do something in the flavor of covert contracts which never bring good results.

You are also bending over backwards while she does almost nothing and I saw problems she has been bringing to the table from years ago and you are incorrectly trying to adjust your behavior around her bad behavior, thus giving credibility to actions and choices she makes that are damaging to your marriage.

You need to realize that her perception of you as her "man" is not strong at all and what you have been doing obviously isn't helping her perception of you.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

blackclover3 said:


> @Tornado907
> 
> let me say this, it is ok to snoop on your spouse phone anytime, there is no such thing about privacy. I read my wife and she read mine. I dont have anything to hide and she doesnt
> 
> ...


That is certainly a scenario. Obviously the worst case scenario, but I do believe what she has told me. I don't believe they made out, I don't believe that they went to a vehicle to have sex. 
So I can either believe her, or not. The fact is, I do believe her and I will move forward being at peace with that. 
She had a little crush on him but nothing ever came of it. I can understand and move past that with firmer boundaries in the future, and a more attentive eye for red flags.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> I'm going off your tone in writing and you were coming off as trying to do something in the flavor of covert contracts which never bring good results.
> 
> You are also bending over backwards while she does almost nothing and I saw problems she has been bringing to the table from years ago and you are incorrectly trying to adjust your behavior around her bad behavior, thus giving credibility to actions and choices she makes that are damaging to your marriage.
> 
> You need to realize that her perception of you as her "man" is not strong at all and what you have been doing obviously isn't helping her perception of you.


I 100% agree with you and I recognize that. I have no problem pulling my weight around the house. I work close to 100 hours a week for 2 weeks and then I'm off for 2 weeks. She works 9-10 hours Monday through Friday. I've got my chores dialed in, and I love that she is less stressed when the house looks tidy when she comes home. I'm familiar with covert contracts, and I've already committed to myself to not do anything for her if there's any shred of hope for "reciprocation." 
The chores I do work for me, it's not an issue that brings me down. I'm happy pulling my weight in that dept. It was an adjustment at first because when she was a SAHM I thought my 2 weeks off were my "time off" but that honestly was not working for me personally because I was really lazy for a time and that stagnated my growth as a person and was probably really unattractive for her. I'm not slaving away all day, I'm just happy doing some housework and dinner prep, happy dropping off and picking my kids up, and volunteering in their classes and being involved with my family.
Trust me, I know that doing those things aren't going to make her panties slip off. I came on here posting that I ****ed up in the beginning, and know I'm ****in up now. 
I appreciate your perspective, I disagree that she cheated but I know my lack of boundaries for her has caused some serious issues, but I don't see those issues as being something that can't be addressed. She's not banging other dudes. Fantasizing about it sure, obviously, but I'd be full of **** if I claimed in10 years of marriage I hadn't let my mind wander.

I also see that I am being massively overly emotional, and overbearing on her. 
I need to let her initiate the emotional intimacy and ill initiate the sexual intimacy. 
And you brought up a valid point about my T levels, I will have those checked.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

BoSlander said:


> It should.
> 
> Body language speaks volumes.


I have taken this into consideration and have established a boundary there.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> You saying it's your fault has me flabbergasted.
> I couldn't get through the rest, honestly.


If you give someone permission to do something can you be upset at them for doing it?


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## blackclover3 (Apr 23, 2021)

@Tornado907 
my last, keep an eye and snoop on the phone daily or weekly, check phone records. dont put full trust. she has bad influence around her.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Rob_1 said:


> It seems that your life's inability to understand relationships/women (at least with your wife) has gotten you to where you are at this moment. Obviously, your lack of emotional involvement at first with your wife killed her emotional attachment to you (extremely hard to get that back), so in essence although not impossible, for all intended purposes you wife is most likely a goner.
> 
> Secondly, upon your realization of how bad you ****up, now you drastically did a 180, which coming from you to her it most be if not repugnant, at least very uncomfortable to feel your physical presence. Women are not like us dude where we just see a glimpse of a tit and we are all hot and bother. They need to feel at least something, otherwise they put up for duty, or a sense of force obligation. You went from being the :stud" to the supplicant Beta dude. That right there is such a turn off for most women (in case you haven't realized it...yet).
> 
> ...


There's many things that have gotten me to where I'm at now. I'm scheduled for counseling. I don't think it's too late. We had great sex last night. We connected. She asked me to STFU with the emotional stuff for a while. 
I was emotionally unavailable most of my life, and when I started to learn and embrace them it was hard and I went to far, and it has been a bit of a turn off for her. Mostly because she thinks I'm always upset with her. I'm starting counseling again. I need to back off on the "emotional connection" aspect. I went overboard on it. Instead of just being there for her I kind of exhaust her by initiating it too frequently. This is all fairly recent, and I am already making the changes I need to make.
I appreciate the tough love here.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

blackclover3 said:


> @Tornado907
> my last, keep an eye and snoop on the phone daily or weekly, check phone records. dont put full trust. she has bad influence around her.


I've checked the phone records a couple times, I've looked at the numbers and contacts. It's just friends and female coworkers. 
I've checked her messenger apps. There's nothing else.
I'll probably not snoop her phone in the future, but I will remember that she was sneaky once.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Tornado907 said:


> I 100% agree with you and I recognize that. I have no problem pulling my weight around the house. I work close to 100 hours a week for 2 weeks and then I'm off for 2 weeks. She works 9-10 hours Monday through Friday. I've got my chores dialed in, and I love that she is less stressed when the house looks tidy when she comes home. I'm familiar with covert contracts, and I've already committed to myself to not do anything for her if there's any shred of hope for "reciprocation."
> The chores I do work for me, it's not an issue that brings me down. I'm happy pulling my weight in that dept. It was an adjustment at first because when she was a SAHM I thought my 2 weeks off were my "time off" but that honestly was not working for me personally because I was really lazy for a time and that stagnated my growth as a person and was probably really unattractive for her. I'm not slaving away all day, I'm just happy doing some housework and dinner prep, happy dropping off and picking my kids up, and volunteering in their classes and being involved with my family.
> Trust me, I know that doing those things aren't going to make her panties slip off. I came on here posting that I ****ed up in the beginning, and know I'm ****in up now.
> I appreciate your perspective, I disagree that she cheated but I know my lack of boundaries for her has caused some serious issues, but I don't see those issues as being something that can't be addressed. She's not banging other dudes. Fantasizing about it sure, obviously, but I'd be full of **** if I claimed in10 years of marriage I hadn't let my mind wander.
> ...


I'm not even going down the infidelity path, though she has been throwing red flags, but her behavior has been alarming.

You should have turned that circus of a weekend around and went right back home when she brought her vibrator as her date instead of you.

I can't even conceive of being disrespected like that and your very timid response was equally alarming.

On T levels, try the natural diet and exercise way to raising them if you find out they are low.

I will say your willingness to engage in self improvement is admirable but you were "improving" yourself right out of your own bed


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Tornado907 said:


> If you give someone permission to do something can you be upset at them for doing it?


You gave her permission to get way too intimate with another man and get in touch with him on social media?

I must have missed that part.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

blackclover3 said:


> @Tornado907
> 
> let me say this, it is ok to snoop on your spouse phone anytime, there is no such thing about privacy. I read my wife and she read mine. I dont have anything to hide and she doesnt
> 
> ...


Bingo. @Tornado907, don't be fooled by your wife. More happened and it didn't go down the way she said, I'd bet money on it.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> You gave her permission to get way too intimate with another man and get in touch with him on social media?
> 
> I must have missed that part.


It was my first reply. She didn't get in touch with him on social media she checked out his Instagram, followed him, unfollowed him right away, told me, showed me.
I told her it was OK to dance when she's out. My mentality was that I want her to be her own person. She's been through alot with miscarriages and bogged down and overwhelmed by children, all while I wasn't there for her. I wanted her to have fun. **** got a little real when I found out she had a crush on this dude. But he probably has no recollection of her. She hasn't contacted him or vice versa. She rejected his advance and from what she said of the evening he wouldn't talk to her later on. The girls were out having fun, it was a fairly small group of people at a really small bar that had live folk music that night.

Full disclosure though, she went on another of those trips to a different town this summer and ended up in a pickup with 2 guys that were trying to get with one of her other friends and they all did coke. This was interrupted after about 10 minutes by one of the other friends looking for them. The guy with the coke was trying to take the friend home. Got her number etc. This friend was talking about her infidelity during this last girl's night (my wife's bday) at the airbnb but my wife missed it bc her family video chatted her and she left the room. Idk that they're related but I'm not so sure.
Typing that out has put some things into perspective about my wife's friends.
She said they have all had affairs of some type.
I want to say that my wife isn't like that. And I honestly believe it. I know it probably makes me sounds like a tard.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> I'm not even going down the infidelity path, though she has been throwing red flags, but her behavior has been alarming.
> 
> You should have turned that circus of a weekend around and went right back home when she brought her vibrator as her date instead of you.
> 
> ...


Just to be clear the vibrator is a toy we use together sometimes. It didn't get used at all.
What do you mean by my timid response?


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

drencrom said:


> Bingo. @Tornado907, don't be fooled by your wife. More happened and it didn't go down the way she said, I'd bet money on it.


It's a possibility, sure. Going forward I won't be so naive. I will also establish clear boundaries. It's past time to have those.
I believe what she's telling me. There are really no inconsistencies to the story. I don't think revisiting it or harboring all that doubt would be helpful

I think in the past, I've relied on my confidence in my good looks. Like who would want to leave me. Well this dude is bigger than me and just as handsome. I've always had this belief that a little competition is healthy for any relationship. Keeps you on your toes. Well I wasn't really on my toes.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Tornado907 said:


> What do you mean by my timid response?


If I arranged a weekend getaway for Mrs. C and myself, found out she didn't want to go when she enthusiastically goes with her friends and then she shuts me down for sex when we get there?

I would have packed our stuff right back into the car, drove home in a very surly mood and let her know we were probably going to be over if she didn't pull her head out.

Mrs. C never came close to disrespecting me like your wife has and I was ready to walk when she let a couple of bitter church ladies convince her to start doling out sex at a much lower and less enthusiastic rate to me.

I sat her down when I figured it out and told her I would be having a lot of sex and I chose her for the wonderful activity but if she didn't want to be my partner in it, I would still be having a lot of sex and I would have no shortage of enthusiastic applicants.

She decided she still wanted to be my partner, took me immediately upstairs and convinced the hell out of me that she was my woman.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> If I arranged a weekend getaway for Mrs. C and myself, found out she didn't want to go when she enthusiastically goes with her friends and then she shuts me down for sex when we get there?
> 
> I would have packed our stuff right back into the car, drove home in a very surly mood and let her know we were probably going to be over if she didn't pull her head out.
> 
> ...


I need to get my T levels checked. I don't disapprove.

I didn't handle that night well, she told me later she would have had sex with me. I was being timid and I didn't even try once we were out of the tub. I got just shut the door on it too early and that behavior got in my own way. I'm stuck between this mentality of respecting it when she's not in the mood and going for what I want and being direct. I'm never going to pressure her into it, but I think that night I easily could have made it happen I just didn't go about it like a man


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> She decided she still wanted to be my partner, took me immediately upstairs and convinced the hell out of me that she was my woman.


She told me last night before she put my hand on her tit that I needed to shut the **** up and shed be turned on more often. 
I told her I recognize my behavior, and it's hard learning this new age **** after a lifetime of being emotionally closed off.
There is definitely a happy medium.
We had way more sex before I started trying to be the emotional leader.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

I appreciate everyone's input and I see where I need to draw clear boundaries. 
I've allowed some questionable behavior that won't be tolerated any longer, and I will leave the overt emotional bonding attempts to her. I will be the sexual leader.
I will reread NMMNG. I'll pick up Married Man Sex Life Primer.
I will move past the questionable stuff upto this point with the understanding that it is the entire truth. If it isn't then that is another story.
I will set boundaries for her with her current friends and their GNO trips.
I will focus on myself and be cognizant that I am in charge of my own happiness. No covert contracts.
I love my wife and I don't think it's over, but if we never come back from this, I can handle it.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Tornado907 said:


> She told me last night before she put my hand on her tit that I needed to shut the **** up and shed be turned on more often.
> I told her I recognize my behavior, and it's hard learning this new age **** after a lifetime of being emotionally closed off.
> There is definitely a happy medium.
> We had way more sex before I started trying to be the emotional leader.


I'm a little confused by this. Are you saying she wants you to tone down on the emotional connection and just **** her? That seems to be in opposition to what is expected.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I'm a little confused by this. Are you saying she wants you to tone down on the emotional connection and just **** her? That seems to be in opposition to what is expected.


I'm saying I went way too overboard. I found something I needed to fix and took it to the extreme. She doesn't want an emotionally needy husband. She just wanted me to be there for her when she needed me, and I never was. I think typing all this out and and getting the responses I have has helped clarify that for me.
We talked last night and it became even more clear that I am approaching this all wrong. She wants a sexual man, which I have always been, but she wants me to be OK when it's not possible. She has some stressful days, and her libido is lower than mine.
My work schedule presents its own set of challenges, but I need to find the balance of emotional support and masculine presence. I think me requesting emotional connection is not what either of us need. As long as she comes to me first for her emotional support, which she has agreed to, then I think it will be OK.

This is all fairly new to me, so it's not surprising I didn't get it perfect it right away. And I'm ok with it not being "perfect" but I can do way better.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I'm a little confused by this. Are you saying she wants you to tone down on the emotional connection and just **** her? That seems to be in opposition to what is expected.


Through the years I've experimented and found that sometimes W wants less before action talk and more carnival ride time.

I thought that was contrary too, and used to think how can that be but actually purposefully accepted it as well, just is, and my sex life got easier. I was surprised but this is time tested. At least for us. And time to time she gets gabby to test me then boom when I ignore what she's saying and respond only to what she's doing. 

I don't know the why of all this but quit wondering a very long time ago also wondering if this was standard. Apparently it is for us.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Tornado907 said:


> I'm saying I went way too overboard. I found something I needed to fix and took it to the extreme. She doesn't want an emotionally needy husband. She just wanted me to be there for her when she needed me, and I never was. I think typing all this out and and getting the responses I have has helped clarify that for me.
> We talked last night and it became even more clear that I am approaching this all wrong. She wants a sexual man, which I have always been, but she wants me to be OK when it's not possible. She has some stressful days, and her libido is lower than mine.
> My work schedule presents its own set of challenges, but I need to find the balance of emotional support and masculine presence. I think me requesting emotional connection is not what either of us need. As long as she comes to me first for her emotional support, which she has agreed to, then I think it will be OK.
> 
> ...


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Tornado907 said:


> I've checked the phone records a couple times, I've looked at the numbers and contacts. It's just friends and female coworkers.
> I've checked her messenger apps. There's nothing else.
> I'll probably not snoop her phone in the future, but I will remember that she was sneaky once.


Hopefully, you will be one of those lucky guys that are able to get their wife's love and emotional connection back. Good luck.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

My thoughts:

no husband is perfect. Your wife is reacting like every other one does to your hysterical bonding attempts. She’s running and has been for a while. You keep chasing and it’s not working.

you ignore all the info you’ve found and actually been given by her and keep chasing like a puppy and take 100% of the blame for a bad marriage.

my advice is to start building a life for yourself, stop chasing, and allow her to see you pulling away and if she chases, fine, if she doesn’t—/ just let her go.

Your wife has told you plainly that she has lost romantic interest in you and as a result, you’ve gone into hysterical bonding mode. I recognize it because I did it too. It has the opposite effect as intended.
Don’t chase your wife. Don’t beg for sex. Don’t take all the blame for every discomfort or negative feeling she has. 

AJust be you. Be the best dad and best man you can be. If that’s not enough for her, let her go.
Don’t wIt for the ideal moment for sex, don’t ask, don’t fret over it. Just do what you’d do with her when you were supposedly happy. Give it your best effort. If she rejects you, don’t pout or allow it to affect you. Just let her know that you aren’t accepting a sexless relationship and if she has no romantic desire for you, you’ll release her from her vows and do it. Don’t be a dry or let it alter your mood if you can help it. You can if you set your mind to it.

you can’t will a person into loving you. And if they don’t, you should set her free. And set YOU free. You’ve allowed yourself to be feminized and she’s not attracted to feminine qualities. She’s has enough of your emotional starvation for her. No woman wants to be chased. She likes to do the chasing.
Jmo.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Evinrude58 said:


> My thoughts:
> 
> no husband is perfect. Your wife is reacting like every other one does to your hysterical bonding attempts. She’s running and has been for a while. You keep chasing and it’s not working.
> 
> ...


Pretty much exactly what I've realized.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Tornado907 said:


> It's a possibility, sure. Going forward I won't be so naive. I will also establish clear boundaries. It's past time to have those.
> I believe what she's telling me. There are really no inconsistencies to the story.


Yes, there is. She played it off like she was wife of the year in backing him off.....then later, and rather stupidly, admits the guy got her hot and bothered enough to follow him on social media.



> I don't think revisiting it or harboring all that doubt would be helpful


So you're going to let her keep going on party hardy girl's nights out where she'll be getting her attention fix? Ok then, good luck with that. And I mean that. I've been where you are and I can tell you, she'd feeding you some BS.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Tornado907 said:


> I will set boundaries for her with her current friends and their GNO trips.


Well, you can't play prison warden on her and forbid her to actually do anything. But you can stress that if her GNO's include going to bars/clubs and involves other men in any way, it isn't going to be pretty when you find out next time.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

GNO trips in your situation is like throwing gasoline on a fire. You might as well just give her a license to steal.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

drencrom said:


> Well, you can't play prison warden on her and forbid her to actually do anything. But you can stress that if her GNO's include going to bars/clubs and involves other men in any way, it isn't going to be pretty when you find out next time.


That's basically what I'm saying. In the past I've given her a long leash because I've wanted her to have fun and trusted her, but she let something that was supposed to be innocent fun develop into a crush. 
I say that I'm not going to harbor any doubt because I did dig into as much as I could, checked phone records, messaging apps etc and there is nothing to suggest that she isn't being honest about it. 
The only sneaky thing that she did was delete the convo that I had already looked at between her and her friend, because she had texted her after I confronted her about the admissions she gave her, they texted about me having read it. I saw this on the phone bill.
I gave her an opportunity to lie, and while she was evasive at first, changed the subject. And said it would come up at some point, she told me what all she had done and recognized that deleting the texts just made it worse. It did. None of the texts were from a guy. I'm assuming she felt invaded. Good.
Now I can either believe her and let it go with clearer boundaries going forward or I can take these transgressions and destroy any hope of improving my marriage. 
I've chosen to believe her and move past this because I've dug, and I haven't found any inconsistencies with what she's told me, but I won't forget that she was sneaky.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Evinrude58 said:


> GNO trips in your situation is like throwing gasoline on a fire. You might as well just give her a license to steal.


Maybe, but I'm not going to forbid her from doing these. I will not tolerate any more ******** though.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

drencrom said:


> She has proven she really can't be trusted. And newsflash, she doesn't say "Whoa I'm married", pulls away, then says he made her feel all tingly inside and follows him on social media. Not the way that works.
> 
> She told you that she pulled away and said that to make you think you can trust her.


So, 99.9999% of the time, people confess to a minimum of interaction to head off a story that may be coming to you. Something happened between her and this guy, and what she told you is the tip of an iceberg.

Her friends are cheaters and encourage this sort of thing. She liked what was happening there and continued to think about it. That wasn't just dancing if she knows all about this guy and pines over him. Plus doing coke with some other random dudes in a parking lot later... wake up.

You should ask her to write down what happened with this guy (so she can't change her story later), then tell her that she will be taking a polygraph. You don't even need to have a real one, just say you do and drive to an office building parking lot ~30 minutes before fake appt... she will change her story. Guaranteed. Her story has all the hallmarks of your standard cheater story, and her actions toward you match it completely.

Your attitude so far is a classic rug-sweeper about the situation.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Tornado907 said:


> Maybe, but I'm not going to forbid her from doing these. I will not tolerate any more ****** though.


On one hand you give “I’m not going to forbid her from doing these” and the other you say “I’m not going to tolerate any more xxxx”

How are you justifying these completely opposing statements in your mind?

She’s shown that she’s dancing, flirting, and messaging these guys she meets, gets drunk and says “I can’t believe I wanted to go out with that guy” to her buddies, and lies about it all.

Why don’t you just tell the truth, which is that you are scared to death to enforce any boundaries in your wife for fear that she will leave you? Realize that she is going to do that anyway. You’ve already gotten the ILYBINILWY speech. You’ve been to “therapy” and “counseling”. 

These are the words you will hear soon:

*“I need space”.

we need to separate. *

And you’ll allow it. You’ll cow down even further. And you’ll be cuckolded by your wife.

I know this hurts to hear. You need to hear it. Either your wife is in, or she’s out.
She can’t say she’s in and go out on GNO, which is nothing but her hoping your replacement shows up. That’s why it’s a GNO and you’re not invited.

She’s even told you she has no desire to go to such places with you.

To steal a line from someone you need to hear from on TAM: You’re only a chump if you allow it.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Evinrude58 said:


> On one hand you give “I’m not going to forbid her from doing these” and the other you say “I’m not going to tolerate any more xxxx”
> 
> How are you justifying these completely opposing statements in your mind?
> 
> ...


I hear what you're saying, and let me clarify. I don't have an issue with GNO. I think it's weak minded to forbid your partner from spending time with their friends. If I feel like I need to control her behavior to that extent than the relationship is already over.
As I've said numerous times, I've dug into it. She never messaged the guy. His profile was public. He didn't even have to accept a follow request. She told me all this. I looked into it. I didn't find anything to contradict her story. So going on the assumption that everything she's told me is true, which I do, then I can move forward with the expectation that she will not be dancing with other guys. 
If she's cheating, which I don't think she is, then I will find out and act accordingly.
I'm not going to treat her as a cheater at this point because I don't believe she is. I will, however be on much higher alert.
As far as the ILYBINILWY speech. That was several years ago, and we've made alot of progress since then. She has walked that statement back since then and claims it was never really true, she was just desperate to get me into counseling with her. The counseling was helpful for us, but I'm a slow learner.
I started this thread to get personally attacked for my actions and get perspective on my own psychology so it's hard to hear people talking about my wife like that when you guys are making alot of assumptions of worst case scenarios. 
Yes it is POSSIBLE she is covering something up, but as I've said, I've dug, and dug and haven't found anything to support that. And her stories don't lead me to believe it's anything other than what she said.
She's been completely honest from the beginning that she was enamored and attracted to him. That's not something that she can control. She ****ed up when she followed him on Instagram, she told me that. It's nothing that she hid from me.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Tornado907 said:


> I hear what you're saying, and let me clarify. I don't have an issue with GNO. I think it's weak minded to forbid your partner from spending time with their friends. If I feel like I need to control her behavior to that extent than the relationship is already over.
> As I've said numerous times, I've dug into it. She never messaged the guy. His profile was public. He didn't even have to accept a follow request. She told me all this. I looked into it. I didn't find anything to contradict her story. So going on the assumption that everything she's told me is true, which I do, then I can move forward with the expectation that she will not be dancing with other guys.
> If she's cheating, which I don't think she is, then I will find out and act accordingly.
> I'm not going to treat her as a cheater at this point because I don't believe she is. I will, however be on much higher alert.
> ...


It's absolutely abusive and it is one of the main signs of abuse to try to isolate a partner from having friends. I don't see any reason for you to be concerned since you guys have been honest with each other.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

re16 said:


> So, 99.9999% of the time, people confess to a minimum of interaction to head off a story that may be coming to you. Something happened between her and this guy, and what she told you is the tip of an iceberg.
> 
> Her friends are cheaters and encourage this sort of thing. She liked what was happening there and continued to think about it. That wasn't just dancing if she knows all about this guy and pines over him. Plus doing coke with some other random dudes in a parking lot later... wake up.
> 
> ...


I will admit. I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt this time. I dug into it, and I believe her. There isn't even any doubt at this point tbh. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I hope I'm not but I will let you know if years down the road I found out I am


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Tornado907 said:


> I hear what you're saying, and let me clarify. I don't have an issue with GNO. I think it's weak minded to forbid your partner from spending time with their friends. If I feel like I need to control her behavior to that extent than the relationship is already over.
> As I've said numerous times, I've dug into it. She never messaged the guy. His profile was public. He didn't even have to accept a follow request. She told me all this. I looked into it. I didn't find anything to contradict her story. So going on the assumption that everything she's told me is true, which I do, then I can move forward with the expectation that she will not be dancing with other guys.
> If she's cheating, which I don't think she is, then I will find out and act accordingly.
> I'm not going to treat her as a cheater at this point because I don't believe she is. I will, however be on much higher alert.
> ...


I didn’t read the part of her backtracking and saying she said it to get you into counseling.
That’s an important point for sure. Glad you’ve made some progress. I still disagree with the GNO stuff for the obvious reason you’ve already seen, but I see your perspective also


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's absolutely abusive and it is one of the main signs of abuse to try to isolate a partner from having friends. I don't see any reason for you to be concerned since you guys have been honest with each other.


Isolating someone from friends and preventing your spouse from going out dancing with other men at bars are totally different things.
Abusive? Yes, going out clubbing with your buds, getting crushes on a guy, and coming home to one’s husband whom you DON’T want to go on dates to the same places with—— I’m glad we agree that this is abusive.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Evinrude58 said:


> Isolating someone from friends and preventing your spouse from going out dancing with other men at bars are totally different things.
> Abusive? Yes, going out clubbing with your buds, getting crushes on a guy, and coming home to one’s husband whom you DON’T want to go on dates to the same places with—— I’m glad we agree that this is abusive.


Two different perspectives.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Evinrude58 said:


> Isolating someone from friends and preventing your spouse from going out dancing with other men at bars are totally different things.
> Abusive? Yes, going out clubbing with your buds, getting crushes on a guy, and coming home to one’s husband whom you DON’T want to go on dates to the same places with—— I’m glad we agree that this is abusive.


Just to be clear, she didn't want me to take her to a dance club. She wants me to take her swing dancing. This is one particular detail that I missed until I tried to call her on it the other night. She said she would love to go swing dancing, and she would love for me to go to lessons for swing dancing or country dancing. She's not into dance club grinding. I missed this detail, and her friend and her were "making fun" of the fact that I wanted to take her to a sleezy bar that had a dance floor.
As I said, I just found all this out the other night.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

My ex had few friends. She had one of good character which was/is a loving wife and only went out on their get together things when it was early (shocker) and not to “the oyster bar”.
One did the football team and had diseases, and was valedictorian of her crappy red neck school, lol.
One was a man hater and constantly ran me and every other man down but particularly enjoyed starting drama in other people’s relationships since she couldn’t find a man herself for the longest. Finally married in her late thirties or early 40’s— I pity the poor bast. Another was a serial cheater of the worst sort and even hit on me multiple times in front of my ex and my ex laughed it off as she joked a lot (she constantly brought up sex and asked me questions) even though the woman banged her other acquaintance’s husband and she knew it. She had 3 young girls and literally abandoned them. Good kids.
Another in the GNO group was bisexual and a serial cheater as well. Hated that her first husband (a good dude I knew personally) finally had enough and booted her. Also ran me down to my ex.
So basically I never bothered about this girls night out business although I made it known to my ex that I didn’t want her out on weekends past 9 or so with her girlfriends at bars (she called “oyster bar” a restaurant.) from the beginning of our relationship and she didn’t make it a total habit until (another shocker) toward the end of our marriage. 

So my point is: GNO at clubs and bars..... that’s not what good women do and I personally wouldn’t marry a woman that wanted to. And yes, had I a choice I’d have nixed the friendships between my ex and these beasts of women that she hung out with (I never attempted that) but was very happy for her to do whatever with the good friend that acted right. In retrospect I should have known my ex wasn’t the white sheep in a group of black sheep, she was just birds of a feather flicking together.

So now that I’ve told on myself, there you go. Rant over.
GNO— I’m agin’ it.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Tornado907 said:


> Just to be clear, she didn't want me to take her to a dance club. She wants me to take her swing dancing. This is one particular detail that I missed until I tried to call her on it the other night. She said she would love to go swing dancing, and she would love for me to go to lessons for swing dancing or country dancing. She's not into dance club grinding. I missed this detail, and her friend and her were "making fun" of the fact that I wanted to take her to a sleezy bar that had a dance floor.
> As I said, I just found all this out the other night.


So, have you signed up for the dance lessons?
I have never been a man that enjoyed anything but a slow dance, but I greatly enjoyed learning the waltz with a beautiful Russian I was once in love with, and will highly recommend it.
I see that as a great bonding experience.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Tornado907 said:


> Just to be clear, she didn't want me to take her to a dance club. She wants me to take her swing dancing. This is one particular detail that I missed until I tried to call her on it the other night. She said she would love to go swing dancing, and she would love for me to go to lessons for swing dancing or country dancing. She's not into dance club grinding. I missed this detail, and her friend and her were "making fun" of the fact that I wanted to take her to a sleezy bar that had a dance floor.
> As I said, I just found all this out the other night.


You should ask her why she could not have conveyed that to you straight up, and instead felt compelled to convey that to the "Hen Club," so that you could be belittled by them.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Tdbo said:


> You should ask her why she could not have conveyed that to you straight up, and instead felt compelled to convey that to the "Hen Club," so that you could be belittled by them.


She did both, I didn't call her on it and ask her reasons were until I read some responses here. I kind of assumed dancing was dancing.


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

Evinrude58 said:


> So, have you signed up for the dance lessons?
> I have never been a man that enjoyed anything but a slow dance, but I greatly enjoyed learning the waltz with a beautiful Russian I was once in love with, and will highly recommend it.
> I see that as a great bonding experience.


I also used to date a beautiful Russian.
I went through a period of time where I salsa danced. I was a bit self conscious of my abilities at the time. I'll look into lessons around here.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Tornado907 said:


> I also used to date a beautiful Russian.
> I went through a period of time where I salsa danced. I was a bit self conscious of my abilities at the time. I'll look into lessons around here.


Not to TJ, but swing dancing is fun.🙂


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## Tornado907 (3 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> Not to TJ, but swing dancing is fun.🙂


It is, but I do need to get my game up


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Tornado907 said:


> She did both, I didn't call her on it and ask her reasons were until I read some responses here. I kind of assumed dancing was dancing.


You could call her on it.
You should make her explain why if she is "All in" to the marriage (or whatever terminology she used) she felt compelled to trash you to a group of women who defile the concept of marriage.
And, you damn well shouldn't quit until you get a solid answer to the question.
Things won't get better until you ask the hard questions and hold her accountable.
There may be some short term pain, but there will be a long term gain.
If not for your marriage, then for yourself and your future.
If nothing else, you may not be viewed as a pushover, and may gain some respect in the future.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Tornado907 said:


> It is, but I do need to get my game up


One thing you really need to start acknowledging is that she needs to be working her ass off too.

I don't see that she is putting in near the effort you are.

You need to expect some things from her.

It's good she was blunt with you though.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It's absolutely abusive and it is one of the main signs of abuse to try to isolate a partner from having friends. I don't see any reason for you to be concerned since you guys have been honest with each other.


I think there is a very important distinction that you are missing... the friends she is going out with are known cheaters. These are toxic friends that encourage marriage damaging behavior.

I surely wouldn't be supportive of her going out with these "friends". 

And now we find out she is doing cocaine in a parking lot with random guys at a bar during one of these GNOs.... can't be good can it?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

re16 said:


> I think there is a very important distinction that you are missing... the friends she is going out with are known cheaters. These are toxic friends that encourage marriage damaging behavior.
> 
> I surely wouldn't be supportive of her going out with these "friends".
> 
> And now we find out she is doing cocaine in a parking lot with random guys at a bar during one of these GNOs.... can't be good can it?


I think you are missing the salient fact that his wife has her own operative brain and is perfectly capable of making her own decisions and isn't a lemming. Really, do you do everything your friends do?


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think you are missing the salient fact that his wife has her own operative brain and is perfectly capable of making her own decisions and isn't a lemming. Really, do you do everything your friends do?


Shouldn't her brain be telling her that she should not be doing these things?

What if it was a guy going out doing coke with random bar chicks, and his guys night out buddies were cheating on their wives.... what would your advice be to his wife, that she should allow and tolerate that because she shouldn't limit his friends? Somehow I think not....


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Tornado907 said:


> I can't really see how swing dancing with another male during live folk music can be considered an affair. I never have considered it to be an affair. She was being a little secretive after i called her on it, but if i put myself in her shoes i can understand why. Ultimately she didn't lie to my face about it.
> 
> I told her im not OK with her dancing with other people if she isn't going to go dancing with me.
> She said, I'm not going to a dance club period, you understand that right? I don't go to dance clubs to dance. They don't have swing dancing at those bars.
> ...


Good grief dude. She’s your wife, she doesn’t get to dance with other men, period. Unless it’s her dad, brother or uncle at a wedding.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

DudeInProgress said:


> Good grief dude. She’s your wife, she doesn’t get to dance with other men, period. Unless it’s her dad, brother or uncle at a wedding.


Allowing her to do this stuff seems like the early stages of a pick me dance... its ok if royally you screw up, as long as you stay with me kind of thinking....

Couple that with believing her on her word about these situations with other guys and OP is setting himself up for a big fall...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think you are missing the salient fact that his wife has her own operative brain and is perfectly capable of making her own decisions and isn't a lemming. Really, do you do everything your friends do?


You're being obtuse.

For such a functional woman, she is absolutely damaging her marriage by this behavior and if she hasn't f'd around yet, she is heading that way.

Hanging out with drugged up hoes and their customers is pretty stupid and your argument doesn't hold water.

Great advice for single women on the make but not for wives.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

re16 said:


> Shouldn't her brain be telling her that she should not be doing these things?
> 
> What if it was a guy going out doing coke with random bar chicks, and his guys night out buddies were cheating on their wives.... what would your advice be to his wife, that she should allow and tolerate that because she shouldn't limit his friends? Somehow I think not....


You guys are ridiculous. She went dancing with girlfriends. He's her husband not her father. You guys are trying to get him to parent her and ruin their relationship entirely because being someone's parent or having one for a spouse isn't sexy. He can't control what she does anyway. She's a grown woman making her own decisions. He doesn't seem to have a problem with that or distrust her even as hard as you guys are trying to get him to assume she's cheating like you do every poster that comes on board because you think all women are cheaters. 

He's already explained the dancing. She wishes he would get involved with swing dancing and go out with her. Sounds like fun to me but you have to learn how to swing dance first.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> You guys are ridiculous. She went dancing with girlfriends. He's her husband not her father. You guys are trying to get him to parent her and ruin their relationship entirely because being someone's parent or having one for a spouse isn't sexy. He can't control what she does anyway. She's a grown woman making her own decisions. He doesn't seem to have a problem with that or distrust her even as hard as you guys are trying to get him to assume she's cheating like you do every poster that comes on board because you think all women are cheaters.
> 
> He's already explained the dancing. She wishes he would get involved with swing dancing and go out with her. Sounds like fun to me but you have to learn how to swing dance first.


You're ignoring the coke, hoes and their johns.

You generally have ok advice for single women, like yourself, but absolutely terrible advice for married people.


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

DownByTheRiver said:


> You guys are ridiculous. She went dancing with girlfriends. He's her husband not her father. You guys are trying to get him to parent her and ruin their relationship entirely because being someone's parent or having one for a spouse isn't sexy. He can't control what she does anyway. She's a grown woman making her own decisions. He doesn't seem to have a problem with that or distrust her even as hard as you guys are trying to get him to assume she's cheating like you do every poster that comes on board because you think all women are cheaters.
> 
> He's already explained the dancing. She wishes he would get involved with swing dancing and go out with her. Sounds like fun to me but you have to learn how to swing dance first.


You completely missed the point...


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Jimi007 said:


> You completely missed the point...


He knows her better than you do.


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

DownByTheRiver said:


> He knows her better than you do.


She got drunk , danced with guys and1 tried to make out with her....Yes , you missed the point completely


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> You're ignoring the coke, hoes and there johns.
> 
> You generally have ok advice for single women, like yourself, but absolutely terrible advice for married people.


Some simply can’t seem to grasp that married women are not single women, and there are different behavioral expectations in a marriage.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Jimi007 said:


> She got drunk , danced with guys and1 tried to make out with her....Yes , you missed the point completely


Nope.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> because you think all women are cheaters.


Not true at all, we're not the ones that tailor our advice based on the sex of the offender.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

re16 said:


> Not true at all, we're not the ones that tailor our advice based on the sex of the offender.


Hilarious.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DudeInProgress said:


> Some simply can’t seem to grasp that married women are not single women, and there are different behavioral expectations in a marriage.


Her advice is fantastic for destroying marriages and just fine for party girls.

That's a fact. I've always wondered why a very confirmed bachelorette is so interesting in doling out advice to people in situations (marriage, children, families, long term) that she has zero experience herself with.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

@DownByTheRiver
So OPs wife:
Drops ILYBNILWY
Laughs and makes fun of him to her friends behind his back
Develops a crush on man she met at a bar on a GNO
Man from bar tried to kiss her
She connects with said on man on social media
Her friends all know about this man
She avoids sex with her husband, sometimes months at a time
Her friends have cheated
She does coke in a parked car at a bar with dudes trying to hook up with her married friend (but obviously not her - she was innocent bystander)
She deletes texts
Gaslights OP when initially questioned about said events...
Tells OP that she doesn't want to do anything about OP feeling unloved

But there are no red flags that some nefarious activity is going on and we shouldn't assume she might be a cheater, and OP should not try to stop her from hanging out with said toxic friends?

That is is about as far off advice that I've ever read on TAM....


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

re16 said:


> @DownByTheRiver
> So OPs wife:
> Drops ILYBNILWY
> Laughs and makes fun of him to her friends behind his back
> ...


Taking a trusting husband and trying to turn him into a paranoid one monitoring his wife because she went dancing is some of the worst advice I've seen on Tam.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> You guys are ridiculous. *She went dancing with girlfriends*. He's her husband not her father. You guys are trying to get him to parent her and ruin their relationship entirely because being someone's parent or having one for a spouse isn't sexy. He can't control what she does anyway. She's a grown woman making her own decisions. He doesn't seem to have a problem with that or distrust her even as hard as you guys are trying to get him to assume she's cheating like you do every poster that comes on board because you think all women are cheaters.
> 
> He's already explained the dancing. She wishes he would get involved with swing dancing and go out with her. Sounds like fun to me but you have to learn how to swing dance first.


She went dancing with friends that are unapologetic cheaters, ended up in a strange mans truck doing cocaine. You are severely minimizing what she had been doing. He isn't being told to treat her like he is her parent. He can't force her to do anything. He is being told that he should set boundaries that make it clear that he will not accept her doing GNO with cheaters, doing coke and dancing with other men. She is free to choose, but needs to know it is unacceptable to him and she can do it as a single person or married to someone that doesn't care. Why does standing up for what you think is acceptable behavior in your marriage a bad thing? She was the one ruining the relationship with these kind of actions, shouldn't he let her know that? And a full gender reversal would change nothing in this situation. This has zero to do with gender.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Taking a trusting husband and trying to turn him into a paranoid one monitoring his wife *because she went dancing *is some of the worst advice I've seen on Tam.


Again severely minimizing. She went dancing AND did coke in a truck with strangers and danced with a strange man to the point she developed a crush on him and started following him on SM. That is a far cry from "she went dancing".


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

re16 said:


> @DownByTheRiver
> So OPs wife:
> Drops ILYBNILWY
> Laughs and makes fun of him to her friends behind his back
> ...


Re16,
You’re just a controlling male. 🤣🤣🤣

why are you putting all those facts from OP’s posts up there like that? It makes it sound like she’s.............not a trustworthy wife...🤯

Good grief. River you are really stretching the limits of the imagination by pretending this woman is an innocent bystander in all this.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Taking a trusting husband and trying to turn him into a paranoid one monitoring his wife because she went dancing is some of the worst advice I've seen on Tam.


LoL! Girl, you are blind then. Deaf most of the time as well it appears.

You don't seem to realize how irrelevant and ridiculous you come off.

TAM history and facts prove you 100% incorrect yet again.

At least you are consistently wrong on these points.😆


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Honestly, I would be questioning my marriage to her solely based on the fact that she is okay doing GNOs with friends that don't mind cheating, doing drugs and dancing with strange men. I would wonder what her choice of friends says about who she really is. My wife would drop friends like that in a heart beat, and actually has.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Taking a trusting husband and trying to turn him into a paranoid one monitoring his wife because she went dancing is some of the worst advice I've seen on Tam.


I hereby declare that my mind is blown. 
omg

“she went dancing”. Lmao


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Nope.


And the next time she was with a few guys, 
Drunk, doing Coke in the back of a pick up truck...Married...Children.....NO you miss the point completely This girl is a train wreck and your defending her.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Y'all are so repetitive. It's like listening to a group of parrots.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Y'all are so repetitive. It's like listening to a group of parrots.


Y'all are so 100% wrong it's great entertainment!

Someone does need to hinder your efforts at destroying marriages as well.😉


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Y'all are so repetitive. It's like listening to a group of parrots.


Instead of saying "she just went dancing", let's say, "she just did some coke". I mean if you can selectively ignore certain things that has occurred, why don't we ignore the dancing? 

She just did lines of coke in a stranger's pickup truck. He's her husband, not her father. He will ruin their relationship by telling her he won't accept her doing coke. That doesn't sound ridiculous to you? How does going out dancing with friends change this at all?


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

OK, back to OP. Based on the last page of this thread, you can see that there are a few of us (not all ) that think you should look harder at your wife's behavior. There are things going on there that not many of us would tolerate and that are frankly big red flags.

It is clear that your actions did some damage to the relationship earlier on and also clear that you've made a big effort to correct those. That doesn't give her the right to do what she's been doing and then also say that she doesn't need or want to do anything about you being unloved.

Mouth shut and eyes open.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Evinrude58 said:


> I hereby declare that my mind is blown.
> omg
> 
> “she went dancing”. Lmao


She was dancing, alright.
The problem is* what she may have been dancing on.*


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

re16 said:


> @DownByTheRiver
> So OPs wife:
> Drops ILYBNILWY
> Laughs and makes fun of him to her friends behind his back
> ...


1. Good summary. 
2. Unfortunately, while it clarifies the insanely inappropriateness of OPs wife’s behavior, and the ridiculousness of his situation - it also crystallizes the strong probability that he is incapable of doing **** about it.

The fact that she is doing all this, and the fact that he has tolerated all of this - I think it’s pretty hopeless at this point. 
At this point I see zero indication that he’s capable of maintaining effective boundaries or managing a healthy/respectable marriage.
His wife doesn’t respect him because he’s not operating as a respectable man. And I don’t see any way to fix that.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DudeInProgress said:


> 1. Good summary.
> 2. Unfortunately, while it clarifies the insanely inappropriateness of OPs wife’s behavior, and the ridiculousness of his situation - it also crystallizes the strong probability that he is incapable of doing **** about it.
> 
> The fact that she is doing all this, and the fact that he has tolerated all of this - I think it’s pretty hopeless at this point.
> ...


He does probably have pretty low T so maybe getting that fixed will help him?


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> He does probably have pretty low T so maybe getting that fixed will help him?


He needs to read, love, and live Glover's book.
He needs to develop a severe case of the Red Ass.
He needs to put the fear of God into his wife by not putting up with any more of her ****.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Tdbo said:


> He needs to read, love, and live Glover's book.
> He needs to develop a severe case of the Red Ass.
> He needs to put the fear of God into his wife by not putting up with any more of her ****.


100%


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Tdbo said:


> He needs to read, love, and live Glover's book.
> He needs to develop a severe case of the Red Ass.
> He needs to put the fear of God into his wife by not putting up with any more of her ****.


if only


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

DudeInProgress said:


> if only


If you kick a puppy enough times, they will become a mean dog
Have to see how many more free kicks he has in him.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Tornado907 said:


> Maybe, but I'm not going to forbid her from doing these. I will not tolerate any more ****** though.


If she had integrity and any thought for you at all, she'd stop going on these GNO's of her own doing.

And if she keeps going on them, well, we know the level of respect she has for you, and it isn't high.


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