# OM/OW and responsibility



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Curious what you guys make of this and your opinions:

https://affairadvice.wordpress.com/...r-woman-or-other-man-for-your-spouses-affair/


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I'd say it's 99.99% accurate. There are always a few exceptions.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> I'd say it's 99.99% accurate. There are always a few exceptions.


What exceptions?

I'm guessing coercion? Like, that's the only reason I myself would blame the OM. Otherwise if my ex-wife cheated on me my anger would be directed at her entirely.


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## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

The only time I could think of blaming the OM/OW for an affair is when the OM/OW is a close acquaintance to the couple having marital problems and has designs on one of them. Then they use the knowledge of the nature of the marital argument to sow more seeds of anger until the desired spouse had enough and cheats out of anger or frustration. Had the third party not gotten involved with their negativity, the married couple may have worked out their problems without infidelity.

That being said, I generally agree with theme of the article...


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Moral escapism.

Complicity is enough.

Shopping around for opinions?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/413178-volatile-chemistry.html


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Edo Edo said:


> The only time I could think of blaming the OM/OW for an affair is when the OM/OW is a close acquaintance to the couple having marital problems and has designs on one of them. Then they use the knowledge of the nature of the marital argument to sow more seeds of anger until the desired spouse had enough and cheats out of anger or frustration. Had the third party not gotten involved with their negativity, the married couple may have worked out their problems without infidelity.
> 
> That being said, I generally agree with theme of the article...


You mean like double betrayals?



GusPolinski said:


> Moral escapism.
> 
> Complicity is enough.
> 
> ...


Actually the sheer anger expressed at OM/OW is why I'm curious. I guess it's understandable, but don't you think it's misplaced?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Actually the sheer anger expressed at OM/OW is why I'm curious. I guess it's understandable, but don't you think it's misplaced?


Plenty of anger to go around.

And it’s not like “I just drove the car!” has ever been a valid defense.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

I think the anger is misplaced. I almost think it's a psychological defense mechanism. The more you can think of your spouse as "victim" or "prey", then the more innocent they are in the whole affair. A BH, especially, can pretend that his wife was effectively raped instead of her being a willing participant. But it's just a form of denial to help one deal with the ugly truth.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Seems that I recollect seeing incidences where the WS actually aided and abetted the betrayed spouse's revenge on the affair partner. Talk about "clever divergence of attention away from themselves" with the sad part being the BS is dumb enough to go along with it.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Tatsuhiko said:


> I think the anger is misplaced. I almost think it's a psychological defense mechanism. The more you can think of your spouse as "victim" or "prey", then the more innocent they are in the whole affair. A BH, especially, can pretend that his wife was effectively raped instead of her being a willing participant. But it's just a form of denial to help one deal with the ugly truth.


Like its impossible for most folks to envision your parents going at it, a BH simply can't envision his old lady's legs wrapped around another guy and her toes curled tightly. It's easier to think what happened to her borders on rape or otherwise out of her control. clever divergence of attention away from themselves


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Mostly agree. I know in my case, my revenge/reactive affair was very much my choice. I knew what I was doing and why. What I didn't count on was how much it would damage me. My WS could then claim the mantle of BS, hypocrical as that may be. At least he knew better than to blame the AP.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Yeah, I agree with most of that article.

Not sure about this part:


> expert after expert reports that happy and content people don’t have affairs.


[citation needed] in my opinion. I'm not sure that's true.


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

Frequently the affair partner is a stranger or relative stranger, while the spouse has developed a long history. For example, maybe the spouse had your back through thick and thin through many bad situations over the years. Having gone through life's ups and downs for years, it counterbalances somewhat against the betrayal. The spouse has done many good things for you over the years, almost all positive, while the other person has done nothing but evil to you.

I don't know about anybody else, but I blame my wife, first and foremost. But, by the same token, the other man has got to pay the price. As a man, if you are going to mess with another man's wife, you have to expect that some serious payback is coming.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Tatsuhiko said:


> I think the anger is misplaced. I almost think it's a psychological defense mechanism. The more you can think of your spouse as "victim" or "prey", then the more innocent they are in the whole affair. A BH, especially, can pretend that his wife was effectively raped instead of her being a willing participant. But it's just a form of denial to help one deal with the ugly truth.


Yes, we see this ALL the time on TAM. The spouses anger is directed towards the OM or OW and their poor little spouse was innocently groomed or taken advantage of by this horrible person. 
I blame both for the affair, the spouse and the OM/OW equally. 

I don't agree with the article that all or even most affairs happen because of unhappiness in the marriage. Some people will cheat no matter what. I blame it on lack or integrity and moral values.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

It is true that an AP has never vowed loyalty or commitment to the BS.....

But I do not believe that relieves them of one ounce of blame from a BS.....

I am pretty Old School about things like the Social Contract.....

We DO owe others a responsibility to not injure them if they have done us no wrong.

And the funny thing about A’s to me is that they are treated differently socially than any other type of wrong.....

If a person steals from me.....the government (as the ‘referee’ in conflicts in society) gives them consequences....

If a person physically attacks me....consequences.....

If they damage my property.....consequences....

[email protected] a person knowingly spread lies about me.....consequences....

But for some inexplicable reason.....if they destroy my M, family, and children’s lives by having an A with my spouse.....suddenly the government and a sizable portion of society (even some other BSs) say they owed you nothing and it is wrong to seek consequences on them for their actions.....

It truly makes NO SENSE based on the very foundational concepts of our society.....

So....consequences for a traitorous WS?......ABSOLUTELY.....

HOWEVER.....the scummy AP deserves any and everything the BS can rain down on their life as well.....

And IMO.....if the government isn’t going to bother to deal with the offenders.....then the right to seek justice should revert back to the BS and the government should just stay out of they way.

The government doesn’t want the resulting chaos?.....

Well then they should get off their a$$es and do something to provide justice.....maybe a return to fault D (for the WS) and the ability to sue for alienation of affection (for the AP).

And an AP who gets a good a$$whipping from a BS better hope I don’t end up on the jury......that is one of the current legal situations where I am a firm believer in jury nullification.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Dyokemm said:


> It is true that an AP has never vowed loyalty or commitment to the BS.....
> 
> But I do not believe that relieves them of one ounce of blame from a BS.....
> 
> ...


Hmmm, it does cross my thoughts when I think about how if everyone would say no to participating in an affair, there would be no infidelity. Many cultures in history punished infidelity harshly, Islam punishes infidelity harshly today - though only the women, not the men.

At the same time, in my youth I had my first and only experience as a OM in an affair. This experience colored my morality to this day. I was 20 years of age, young dumb and full of... you know. The woman was 30. The sex at the time for me was mind blowing. Then I found out she was married, and with a kid; a son only 5 years younger than me. I was spooked, and ran, and for a while I blamed myself, considered myself responsible for potentially destroying a marriage. Then, I got over it, but the innocence was lost, after that I no longer blamed OM/OW for affairs, but the spouse themselves and them alone.

Besides as some have also pointed out, blaming the OM/OW tends to lead to folks prematurely forgiving their wayward spouse for their behavior. It's the OM/OW's fault after all and all that.


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## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> You mean like double betrayals?



Exactly. For example, a single woman is friends with a married couple that is having problems (that they could otherwise work out with some time and effort). She uses knowledge of their arguments to fuel tension, telling the woman that she'd be better off "single and free" while secretly telling the man that he could find someone that respects him more/give him more sex/etc. This manipulation from a trusted source of both parties fuels actions they would not have taken otherwise.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Edo Edo said:


> Exactly. For example, a single woman is friends with a married couple that is having problems (that they could otherwise work out with some time and effort). She uses knowledge of their arguments to fuel tension, telling the woman that she'd be better off "single and free" while secretly telling the man that he could find someone that respects him more/give him more sex/etc. This manipulation from a trusted source of both parties fuels actions they would not have taken otherwise.


True, guess will add that to the list; In the case of coercion, and double betrayals, I have to agree the OM/OW is also to blame.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Hmmm, it does cross my thoughts when I think about how if everyone would say no to participating in an affair, there would be no infidelity. Many cultures in history punished infidelity harshly, Islam punishes infidelity harshly today - though only the women, not the men.
> 
> At the same time, in my youth I had my first and only experience as a OM in an affair. This experience colored my morality to this day. I was 20 years of age, young dumb and full of... you know. The woman was 30. The sex at the time for me was mind blowing. Then I found out she was married, and with a kid; a son only 5 years younger than me. I was spooked, and ran, and for a while I blamed myself, considered myself responsible for potentially destroying a marriage. Then, I got over it, but the innocence was lost, after that I no longer blamed OM/OW for affairs, but the spouse themselves and them alone.
> 
> Besides as some have also pointed out, blaming the OM/OW tends to lead to folks prematurely forgiving their wayward spouse for their behavior. It's the OM/OW's fault after all and all that.


In your situation, no punishment was deserved.

Because you did not KNOWINGLY have sex with a M woman.....she hid that detail from you.

And your reaction once you found out shows you do understand the concept of not doing injuries to others....you immediately ended it.

No one could hold you responsible for what happened......that A was truly ENTIRELY on the WW.

However....the majority of A’s on these threads involve AP’s who absolutely know the WS is married.....and they choose to inflict injury on the BS anyway.

F them.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Dyokemm said:


> In your situation, no punishment was deserved.
> 
> Because you did not KNOWINGLY have sex with a M woman.....she hid that detail from you.
> 
> ...


For me to overcome my guilt I had to remove the moral entirely. Sure I didn't know, but I felt that the affair caused the same pain, potentially destroyed the marriage, regardless of my ignorance.

Now that the moral is gone, when I see OM/OW since my experience, I can't help but see myself, and now since I can't blame myself I no longer blame them, only the spouse. Even if they knowingly enter an affair knowing their partner is married - if it's not them it's someone else. That's just how it is.

If ex-wife ever cheated, as vengeful a person as I am with other issues, I can't bring myself to hate an OM (or OW, since she was bi)


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> For me to overcome my guilt I had to remove the moral entirely. Sure I didn't know, but I felt that the affair caused the same pain, potentially destroyed the marriage, regardless of my ignorance.
> 
> Now that the moral is gone, when I see OM/OW since my experience, I can't help but see myself, and now since I can't blame myself I no longer blame them, only the spouse. Even if they knowingly enter an affair knowing their partner is married - if it's not them it's someone else. That's just how it is.
> 
> If ex-wife ever cheated, as vengeful a person as I am with other issues, I can't bring myself to hate an OM (or OW, since she was bi)


Interesting view.....

With respect though.....I cannot agree.

One cannot simply make a moral null and void in order to avoid any feelings of guilt or responsibility.

Essentially (if I am understanding your point correctly), you have decided that what an AP does is no longer immoral.

Even if one were to accept this logic in this case, it would soon fall apart IMO when the same reasoning was applied to other social situations/issues.

For example, drug dealing.

A drug dealer could not be held to act immorally based on your argument.....

He/she is not doing anything immoral........the responsibility of saying no belongs to the purchaser......and if the dealer wasn’t the one to do the sale, there would simply be another person to step in and do the sale.

IMO though, a person cannot simply abdicate moral responsibilities towards other members of society at their own whim.....we cannot pick and choose only the pieces or parts of the Social Contract that suit our own desires.

This is what AP’s are essentially doing when they run to the cops for protection after the BS discovers their actions.....

They DO NOT want to accept the part of the Contract that would forbid them to injure the BS by destroying their M and family.....

But they definitely DO want to keep the part that would forbid the BS from doing them physical harm.

They are selfish, cherry-picking weasels......only out to do whatever they want, the rest of society be [email protected]

And before someone brings up the counter that, “well, drug dealing is illegal.....adultery isn’t”......

Legality and Morality are two separate things......they do not always coincide......

Some things are legal....while still remaining immoral.

And there are some things that are illegal that are not immoral IMO.

And the point we are discussing here is moral obligations under the Social Contract.....

IMO an AP definitely DOES have a moral obligation to not injure a BS who has done him/her no harm.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Dyokemm said:


> Interesting view.....
> 
> With respect though.....I cannot agree.
> 
> *One cannot simply make a moral null and void in order to avoid any feelings of guilt or responsibility.*


Really? I can lol 

Morality is relative to me after all as I add/remove/modify according to my environment. This is due to my upbringing where I grew up in environments where morality had to be fluid; crime was essential for me during my teens to survive as an independent minor for example. As I escaped that life and found a way out, my morality changed to suit a legal lifestyle.

I highly respect those with strict morals however, morality is what keeps us from chaos after all. Even on the street, I developed a code of ethics, as even criminals had a code. One core moral that is 'hardcoded' is never to betray trust for example, as trust is universally valuable.



> Essentially (if I am understanding your point correctly), you have decided that what an AP does is no longer immoral.
> Even if one were to accept this logic in this case, it would soon fall apart IMO when the same reasoning was applied to other social situations/issues.
> For example, drug dealing.
> A drug dealer could not be held to act immorally based on your argument.....
> ...


Hmmm speaking of drug dealing, it's another issue. Alcohol for example was prohibited in your country's history, doing so pushed it underground. At that time it was considered a drug. Those who provided it, did so to satisfy a demand. If the demand wasn't there, alcohol-related crime would not exist. They weren't different from your local liquor store, except at the time it was illegal. Is selling alcohol immoral? All this reminds me of the whole marijuana debate too, many people have different opinions on it.

Tobacco is one of the worst however, IMO, when it comes to drugs, it's highly addictive and cancerous. However, smokers acknowledge their responsibility in it, and do not blame the tobacco companies, and IMO rightly so - no one forced them to smoke after all.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Plenty of anger to go around.
> 
> And it’s not like “I just drove the car!” has ever been a valid defense.


 This is what I'm sayin' ^ And @Dyokemm nailed it as well.

I don't get why this always seems to be made into an AND/OR. I'd be pissed at both of them. My spouse broke a vow to me so obviously they get the full blame that goes with that, and the AP broke "the Code" which is also a violation of "me". They are two separate perpetrators within the same act. If the AP knew that the Wayward was married then that puts them squarely in the sights of blame as well, exponentially more so if the AP was a friend of the betrayed.
If my spouse let someone in my house to steal my possessions, I'd be pissed at the spouse, but I'd be pretty pissed at the thief as well. And Yes, maybe it would have eventually been another thief/AP if it wasn't this one. Then they would be to blame as well. Doesn't justify the AP's actions and they still deserve blame. Like Gus said Plenty of anger/(blame) to go around" . Share and share alike.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

I call some BS on this article. The OM/OW aren't innocent at all specially if they knew their AP was married and worst yet, had younger kids. By getting involved they fully played a part in wrecking a family and affecting innocent kids. Happy or not, even if hit on by another OW, I would never get involved in such a mess with someone else's family and kids, that's totally wrong and immoral, no excuses. 

Sent from my BTV-W09 using Tapatalk


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

At the least, an OM/OW who knows the person is married is doing harm to the BS and kids. Knowingly harming another person is immoral, and thus deserves some form of scorn. Since there is nothing more important to a person than their family and kids, the OM/OW deserves a lot of scorn!

Some OM/OW are predatory, whereas others are simply weak. I have a lot more venom for the predators than the weak.

Which doesn't absolve the WS one little bit. I think the getaway driver analogy is spot on. The bank robber who shoots the cashier is fully responsible for pulling the trigger, but the getaway driver is fully responsible for aiding in the crime. Both are guilty for their own actions. And so the OM/OW are guilty of aiding in the infidelity, while the WS is guilty of infidelity.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

They are both to blame equally. Anyone who goes after a married person and has an affair with them is guilty. Anyone who is married and cheats is also guilty. I just wish that all BS's would blame their spouses equally. 
Even if people claim they didn't know, there are often signs they chose to ignore. If they really didn't have a clue, they should have apologised to the innocent spouse.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Hmmm... right now when I think about it, if a man coerced my wife to have sex, or a friend that I trusted had sex with my wife... the consequences must be severe. 

A stranger who my wife picks up to cheat on me with however, just doesn't feel right for me to judge him. Curious btw, if the OM/OW was an escort, would the hate also channel to the prostitute?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> Hmmm... right now when I think about it, if a man coerced my wife to have sex, or a friend that I trusted had sex with my wife... the consequences must be severe.
> 
> A stranger who my wife picks up to cheat on me with however, just doesn't feel right for me to judge him. Curious btw, if the OM/OW was an escort, would the hate also channel to the prostitute?


Prostitutes know that many of the people they have sex with are married so yes they are just as guilty. 
I think that the fact that you committed adultery years ago is making you think that we shouldn't see that as wrong. I think that's quite bizarre.


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## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Hmmm... right now when I think about it, if a man coerced my wife to have sex, or a friend that I trusted had sex with my wife... the consequences must be severe.
> 
> A stranger who my wife picks up to cheat on me with however, just doesn't feel right for me to judge him. Curious btw, if the OM/OW was an escort, would the hate also channel to the prostitute?



In my humble opinion, the prostitute would be no more to blame for a husband's cheating than a baker would be for helping a man cheat on his diet...


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Diana7 said:


> Prostitutes know that many of the people they have sex with are married so yes they are just as guilty.
> I think that the fact that you committed adultery years ago is making you think that we shouldn't see that as wrong. I think that's quite bizarre.


Heh, I just feel it's a tad overkill. I like my vengeance precise but that's just me.



Edo Edo said:


> In my humble opinion, the prostitute would be no more to blame for a husband's cheating than a baker would be for helping a man cheat on his diet...


Agreed.

I also don't like it when spouses justify their infidelity with all sorts of excuses including 'seduction' by the OM/OW. If we were living in the times where divorce was not possible then things may be a little more understandable, but in modern times, where divorce is readily available as an option, don't think there's much excuse left to cheat.


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## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

I've seen quite a few cases where a couple reconciles after an affair I believe that both of them vilifying the OM/OW together helps rebuild their teamwork. I believe a lot of times the WS is faking the vilification to assist in the rebuilding process.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

My wife's fault. She says of course a guy is gonna tap a babe if she lets him, because men only think with their small brains.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Heh, I just feel it's a tad overkill. I like my vengeance precise but that's just me.


Not me, I like my vengeance utterly and totally devastating.


When my first wife cheated, I used every single snide comment or condescending remark made by her entire family against them. Some of them still haven't talked to each other to this day, almost 20 years later. Lol. Although it was satisfying, I didn't go far enough. The OM, had his name ran through the mud several times. When all the dust had settled, all his racing buddies knew the kind of person he was and knew that he could not be trusted. It didn't take but one more season and he left that track for good. He's never been back to my knowledge. 

If my current wife ever makes the same mistake, and she is fully aware of my previous marriage, I will bring the ****ing apocalypse on their heads. After I am done with the OM, the wife will be terrified of what I am capable of, and if not then I haven't done my job. I believe in absolutely no compassion for a cheater or OM/OW. That's just how I role.

Living a great life after you have torn theirs asunder is the best vengeance. That and ****ing on their headstones after they have passed. Lol.

Plenty of hate to go to both the WS and AP in my opinion.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Written by a Wayward Spouse, who has finally got his head on straight.

My own personal experience is not so much a profound unhappiness in the existing marriage. It's more of a prolonged frustration followed by hopelessness.

An interesting corollary to this line of thinking is that if there is no Other Man / Woman, then there are only 2 places the blame can fall. The dissatisfied Spouse, Or the devastated Spouse.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> My wife's fault. She says of course a guy is gonna tap a babe if she lets him, because men only think with their small brains.


She clearly doesn't know many good decent men.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Windwalker said:


> Not me, I like my vengeance utterly and totally devastating.
> 
> 
> When my first wife cheated, I used every single snide comment or condescending remark made by her entire family against them. Some of them still haven't talked to each other to this day, almost 20 years later. Lol. Although it was satisfying, I didn't go far enough. The OM, had his name ran through the mud several times. When all the dust had settled, all his racing buddies knew the kind of person he was and knew that he could not be trusted. It didn't take but one more season and he left that track for good. He's never been back to my knowledge.
> ...


I agree about the living a good life part, but to be so filled with hate and bitterness and desires of vengeance isn't good for anyone especially you. 
Both of our sex spouses acted very badly, but we forgave them and we have never done anything to make their lives bad or difficult. For many years we prayed for them as well. 
As I see it acting that way is making us as bad as them, and choosing to act with dignity and fairness, especially if there are children involved, it the best way to heal and move on. We can chose to act well no matter what they did to us. 

Unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I agree about the living a good life part, but to be so filled with hate and bitterness and desires of vengeance isn't good for anyone especially you.
> Both of our sex spouses acted very badly, but we forgave them and we have never done anything to make their lives bad or difficult. For many years we prayed for them as well.
> As I see it acting that way is making us as bad as them, and choosing to act with dignity and fairness, especially if there are children involved, it the best way to heal and move on. We can chose to act well no matter what they did to us.
> 
> Unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.


It would be far less about hate and bitterness, and far more about principles. 

"Fool me once - shame on you
Fool me twice - shame on me
Fool me thrice - may God have mercy on your soul, because I won't" 

Or in other words "A wounded man shall say to his assailant, if I die you are forgiven, but if I live, I will kill you"

A cheater is a vary large percentage of the time (99%) devoid of principles and honor. I see no reason why I should not use their very own lack of ethics against them.

To each their own.


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> She clearly doesn't know many good decent men.


It is more likely that you know a lot of dishonest men.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> I agree about the living a good life part, but to be so filled with hate and bitterness and desires of vengeance isn't good for anyone especially you.


It isn't worth my time or emotional investment to plan and execute a vengeance plan. Being free and happy is so much better!

I do, however, believe in consequences. I also believe in doing right by others. One man I suspect of being an OM of my xw was married at that time, and still is. If I got confirmation then I would certainly expose to OM's W because she deserves to know. I would have no problem notifying a licensing authority or an employer if there was illegal or unethical behavior involved. Those rules exist because unethical people do unethical things professionally as well as in their personal lives. If someone lost their state professional license it would be righteous.

I also believe in setting the record straight if I've been maligned, but only if it matters. If xw's family hates me, I truly wouldn't care.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> It is more likely that you know a lot of dishonest men.


No I know a lot of good decent men. Not all men are animals driven by lusts. :surprise: Many men would never cheat no matter what, and its demeaning to men to imply that all of most have no self control or moral values when it comes to a woman.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Windwalker said:


> It would be far less about hate and bitterness, and far more about principles.
> 
> "Fool me once - shame on you
> Fool me twice - shame on me
> ...


I dont want to go by how others act, but how I should act. We can act with honour and integrity no matter what.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Thor said:


> It isn't worth my time or emotional investment to plan and execute a vengeance plan. Being free and happy is so much better!
> 
> I do, however, believe in consequences. I also believe in doing right by others. One man I suspect of being an OM of my xw was married at that time, and still is. If I got confirmation then I would certainly expose to OM's W because she deserves to know. I would have no problem notifying a licensing authority or an employer if there was illegal or unethical behavior involved. Those rules exist because unethical people do unethical things professionally as well as in their personal lives. If someone lost their state professional license it would be righteous.
> 
> I also believe in setting the record straight if I've been maligned, but only if it matters. If xw's family hates me, I truly wouldn't care.


Yes SO much better to be free and to be able to let the past go and move on. Yes there are consequences, and that may be that both cheaters loose their families, but that is a natural consequence not one caused by a desire to hurt and be vengeful.


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> No I know a lot of good decent men. Not all men are animals driven by lusts. :surprise: Many men would never cheat no matter what, and its demeaning to men to imply that.


Let me be clear that NO MAN would "never cheat no matter what". All human beings are animals driven by chemicals affecting our brain. Do you think teenage boys stop being teenage boys when they hit their 20s? No, they start to understand the consequences of not hiding who they truly are.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Diana7 said:


> Yes SO much better to be free and to be able to let the past go and move on. Yes there are consequences, and that may be that both cheaters loose their families, but that is a natural consequence not one caused by a desire to hurt and be vengeful.


And the desire to hurt and be vengeful is also a natural consequence


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> Let me be clear that NO MAN would "never cheat no matter what". All human beings are animals driven by chemicals affecting our brain. Do you think teenage boys stop being teenage boys when they hit their 20s? No, they start to understand the consequences of not hiding who they truly are.


I disagree. Most men have had opportunities presented to them in life and yet 50% remain faithful to their wives. Thank goodness that those 50% are good men. I know many of them.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> And the desire to hurt and be vengeful is also a natural consequence


No its not its a choice to act that way.


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I disagree. Most men have had opportunities presented to them in life and yet 50% remain faithful to their wives. Thank goodness that those 50% are good men. I know many of them.


You're looking at it wrong. Just because they have turned down the opportunities given them doesn't mean they would do so every time.

I hate asparagus. If you offered me some, I would turn that down. Could you conclude that I would never eat food because of that?

I have never cheated on my spouse. I have probably had close to 15 real chances to do so in the four years we've been married. I weighed the pros and cons and decided it wasn't worth it.

But there are so many opportunities that, if presented to me, I would jump at. Without hesitation. Because I am a human being.

Every other man is the same. The ones you refer to, have made the decision that they will subvert their true selves to be who you want them to be. How sad.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Diana7 said:


> No its not its a choice to act that way.


Just as it's a choice to be to let the perpetrator get away with it, or to let them suffer the consequences of their actions.

_"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."_

I don't agree with judging the OM/OW, but if one feels that the OM/OW has done them harm, they have every right to exact vengeance to make them suffer the consequences.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> You're looking at it wrong. Just because they have turned down the opportunities given them doesn't mean they would do so every time.
> 
> I hate asparagus. If you offered me some, I would turn that down. Could you conclude that I would never eat food because of that?
> 
> ...


The men I know are decent men of integrity and strong moral values. I think its sad that you think so little of your own sex that you run them down in this way. Its also sad that you haven't met any good men who would never ever cheat on their wives no matter what.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> Just as it's a choice to be to let the perpetrator get away with it, or to let them suffer the consequences of their actions.
> 
> _"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."_
> 
> I don't agree with judging the OM/OW, but if one feels that the OM/OW has done them harm, they have every right to exact vengeance to make them suffer the consequences.


Not if it means we act as badly as they have. I have learnt though many of life's experiences that forgiveness is vital for healing and emotional well being.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Edo Edo said:


> The only time I could think of blaming the OM/OW for an affair is when the OM/OW is a close acquaintance to the couple having marital problems and has designs on one of them. Then they use the knowledge of the nature of the marital argument to sow more seeds of anger until the desired spouse had enough and cheats out of anger or frustration. Had the third party not gotten involved with their negativity, the married couple may have worked out their problems without infidelity.
> 
> That being said, I generally agree with theme of the article...


In my case I originally REALLY blamed the OM, and my xw a bit. Still blame the OM, but she is ahead of him now. 
My xw had an affair (now married to) with a good friend of mine. Not my best friend, but he was a pretty good friend. He lost his 4th wife in December of 2009 to brain cancer. He started chasing my wife mid 2010 He knew my wife was a bit shakey on the mental side, and he played to that. In addition he was talking to me about my marriage, and giving me what I know now was very bad advice, I believe on purpose. The whole time he was working her (I found out July 2011) he was coming around to see me, yeah right, and set up a small business (he was retired) so that she could work with him, I could buy their lunch each day, and he could woo her. I know now that although he was a total jerk, she was the real weak link. The last time I saw him, day before I found out, he put his arm around me, patted my shoulder and said "see you tomorrow buddy!" He used his relationship with me to get her....why I blame him. Now 7 years later, I feel like sending him some wine on the anniversary of DDay, for really doing me a favor!


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> The men I know are decent men of integrity and strong moral values. I think its sad that you think so little of your own sex that you run them down in this way. Its also sad that you haven't met any good men who would never ever cheat on their wives no matter what.


There is no such thing as a "good" person with integrity and moral values. You are an awful person. I am. Everyone we know is.

Just accept it.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Diana7 said:


> Not if it means we act as badly as they have. I have learnt though many of life's experiences that forgiveness is vital for healing and emotional well being.


We don't have to act badly, there are many legal avenues in which to exact revenge, and it is the most preferable after all as it maximises the consequences of the perpetrator and minimises the risk of consequences for the avenger.

By all means, forgive if it helps to calm oneself from being overwhelmed by hate and anger, as too much emotion diminishes the satisfaction of revenge; it is a dish best served cold. But never forget, and never let them get away with it.

If you do, you encourage it.

Take me for example, I got away with it once (as I mentioned), and the guilt was only temporary, I removed it and the moral as well. See how the experience encouraged me? The only moral safeguard that I have to stop myself from being an OM/OW now is the hurt and pain I would cause. And to me, that is a weak safeguard as if I don't know the person, my empathy for them is zero. Now if I had suffered some consequence for what I did, my outlook would have been different.

Life however has not graced me with such a lesson, but I hope my self-discipline is enough.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I dont want to go by how others act, but how I should act. We can act with honour and integrity no matter what.


Lol.
That's the thing. I would be living with integrity. Each person's individual code of honor and personal principles are different. That's what makes us unique.

You can't live mine, and I can't live yours, nor would either of us want to. No one tells me how to live. Nor would I even consider the possibility. I tolerate the intolerable until it becomes intolerable,then it means nothing to me. Every person I interact with knows exactly where they stand with me. I won't do behind someone's back what I wouldn't do to their face. My general rule is do no harm, unless crossed, and even then it's generally a 3 strike rule depending on the infraction. Infidelity? That's an automatic deal breaker, and a mortal wound as far as I am concerned. 

We will have to agree to disagree.


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> However....the majority of A’s on these threads involve AP’s who absolutely know the WS is married.....and they choose to inflict injury on the BS anyway.
> 
> F them.





Rubix Cubed said:


> This is what I'm sayin' ^ And @Dyokemm nailed it as well.
> 
> I don't get why this always seems to be made into an AND/OR. I'd be pissed at both of them. My spouse broke a vow to me so obviously they get the full blame that goes with that, and the AP broke "the Code" which is also a violation of "me". They are two separate perpetrators within the same act. If the AP knew that the Wayward was married then that puts them squarely in the sights of blame as well, exponentially more so if the AP was a friend of the betrayed.
> If my spouse let someone in my house to steal my possessions, I'd be pissed at the spouse, but I'd be pretty pissed at the thief as well. And Yes, maybe it would have eventually been another thief/AP if it wasn't this one. Then they would be to blame as well. Doesn't justify the AP's actions and they still deserve blame. Like Gus said Plenty of anger/(blame) to go around" . Share and share alike.



QFT!


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> Every other man is the same. The ones you refer to, have made the decision that they will subvert their true selves to be who you want them to be. How sad.


The Idea that you think this is "normal" is the thing that is sad. I do not have to subvert myself to be faithful. Faithful is "What I Am."



Todd Haberdasher said:


> There is no such thing as a "good" person with integrity and moral values. You are an awful person. I am. Everyone we know is.
> 
> Just accept it.


I have no trouble accepting that you are an awful person. In order for you to be Awful there must be something at the other end of the spectrum to compare you to. Your ego is not big enough to include me.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> We don't have to act badly, there are many legal avenues in which to exact revenge, and it is the most preferable after all as it maximises the consequences of the perpetrator and minimises the risk of consequences for the avenger.
> 
> By all means, forgive if it helps to calm oneself from being overwhelmed by hate and anger, as too much emotion diminishes the satisfaction of revenge; it is a dish best served cold. But never forget, and never let them get away with it.
> 
> ...


Legal avenue is generally the best.

Your country is a little more civilized than ours. Although it's getting much more rare, it's not all that unheard of to have a OM, either shot, legs broke, or have the life beat out of them.

Wish it would happen more often, then maybe people would think twice.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Someone who enables someone else do something illegal/immoral/cruel is also blameworthy for the cruelty. Cheating is wrong, and helping someone cheat is also wrong.

I won't ever date someone who is married. I don't care how separated they are. I don't care if their spouse shows up and tells me they've been separated for years and gives me permission. I'm not doing it. I won't even date someone single until I heavily vet the possibility that they could be lying to me about their marital status.


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## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

Formally known as Hoosier said:


> In my case I originally REALLY blamed the OM, and my xw a bit. Still blame the OM, but she is ahead of him now.
> My xw had an affair (now married to) with a good friend of mine. Not my best friend, but he was a pretty good friend. He lost his 4th wife in December of 2009 to brain cancer. He started chasing my wife mid 2010 He knew my wife was a bit shakey on the mental side, and he played to that. In addition he was talking to me about my marriage, and giving me what I know now was very bad advice, I believe on purpose. The whole time he was working her (I found out July 2011) he was coming around to see me, yeah right, and set up a small business (he was retired) so that she could work with him, I could buy their lunch each day, and he could woo her. I know now that although he was a total jerk, she was the real weak link. The last time I saw him, day before I found out, he put his arm around me, patted my shoulder and said "see you tomorrow buddy!" He used his relationship with me to get her....why I blame him. Now 7 years later, I feel like sending him some wine on the anniversary of DDay, for really doing me a favor!



That's a rough road of betrayal you had to deal with. But at least it sounds like you came out of it with your head on straight and at least able to place blame where proper blame is due. Stay positive and good luck in your future relationships. :smile2:


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> You're looking at it wrong. Just because they have turned down the opportunities given them doesn't mean they would do so every time.
> 
> I hate asparagus. If you offered me some, I would turn that down. Could you conclude that I would never eat food because of that?
> 
> ...


Every other man is not the same. I guess I am one of those who has "subverted their true self" and stayed faithful no matter what. I've had opportunities. It's called integrity to not act on those baser desires because we've made a commitment and promise to another. I don't find it sad at all. 

If someone wants to be single and screw whoever they want (consenting adult of course), more power to them! Just go get divorced first so that you aren't destroying a spouse/family through lies and infidelity.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> There is no such thing as a "good" person with integrity and moral values. You are an awful person. I am. Everyone we know is.
> 
> Just accept it.


I know loads of people with integrity and strong moral values. I know loads of people who would never cheat no matter what. Its sad that you don't.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> There is no such thing as a "good" person with integrity and moral values. You are an awful person. I am. Everyone we know is.
> 
> Just accept it.


Easily the broadest and most unfounded case of projection I've ever seen on these boards.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TheGoodGuy said:


> Every other man is not the same. I guess I am one of those who has "subverted their true self" and stayed faithful no matter what. I've had opportunities. It's called integrity to not act on those baser desires because we've made a commitment and promise to another. I don't find it sad at all.
> 
> If someone wants to be single and screw whoever they want (consenting adult of course), more power to them! Just go get divorced first so that you aren't destroying a spouse/family through lies and infidelity.


Its good to know that there are some decent men on here, thank you. :smile2: I know many like you and I hate it when a man will run down his whole sex making out they are all like him and would cheat give the right circumstances. 

I see cheating as subverting our true selves. Faithfullness is vital in marriage. There are many of us who would not commit adultery no matter who gave us opportunity. Its called self control, faithfulness and decency. A night of purely physical sex isn't worth wrecking the lives of our spouse and children and probably destroying another family as well.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Easily the broadest and most unfounded case of projection I've ever seen on these boards.


And easily the most untruthful statement as well. How dare one man imply that all men are like he is. We know for a fact that there are many good and decent men around.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> We don't have to act badly, there are many legal avenues in which to exact revenge, and it is the most preferable after all as it maximises the consequences of the perpetrator and minimises the risk of consequences for the avenger.
> 
> By all means, forgive if it helps to calm oneself from being overwhelmed by hate and anger, as too much emotion diminishes the satisfaction of revenge; it is a dish best served cold. But never forget, and never let them get away with it.
> 
> ...


I don't see it as being up to me to dish out any sort of punishment. These things have a way of working themselves out anyway. 
Forgiveness takes great strength, and it in no way means that they have got away with it or that we would accept that sort of behaviour again. Its a decision made so that we can receive healing and the ability to move on. Its mainly for our own emotional well being. It's sad to be with those who are still living in anger and bitterness some time later. I would have run from a man like that. 
I saw the fair and decent way my husband had acted towards his ex in the divorce, and that's partly what attracted me to him. If he hadn't forgiven her I couldn't have dated him or married him.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Curious what you guys make of this and your opinions:
> 
> https://affairadvice.wordpress.com/...r-woman-or-other-man-for-your-spouses-affair/


Mostly agree. Don't agree that cheating mostly happens in unhappy marriages. I've seen many people cheat when the marriage was good.

Even though I agree, I believe the OM/OW should not escape unscathed if they knew they were messing around with a married person.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I don't see it as being up to me to dish out any sort of punishment. These things have a way of working themselves out anyway.
> Forgiveness takes great strength, and it in no way means that they have got away with it or that we would accept that sort of behaviour again. Its a decision made so that we can receive healing and the ability to move on.


Any man plays in my garden and he is going to be in serious need of healing and won't have the ability to move anything, much less move on, for a substantial amount of time.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

I read a post in the Wayward section on SI today where a WW stated that she had to confess her A to her BH because she went to the doctor and discovered that the POSOM had infected her with herpes.

And it reminded me of this thread.

Would anyone’s opinion that the AP owed the BS nothing be changed if the circumstances involved the AP introducing a life long or potentially fatal STD to the BS?

I mean this person, at that point, would have wrecked not only the BS’s current M and family......but basically they would also have forever wrecked or put a crimp on the entire future sex life of a person who had done them no wrong......considering that if a BS decided to D and move on, their chances of finding another M or relationship would be seriously reduced if they were effected with herpes thanks to the crappy AP infecting the WS.

I am basically already in the camp that the AP deserves punishment from the BS already.......

And some who have posted here have shared they are of the opposite opinion (which is OK.....we all are entitled to our own thoughts and opinions).

Just wondering if anyone would change that stance if the AP introduced a life long STD ‘sentence’ onto the BS victim?


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## FancyPants (Apr 12, 2018)

Was browsing, and stumbled on this thread.

It's thought provoking. I fall in the camp of there being more than enough blame to go around when it comes to the person who was cheated on and the other man or other woman. Both contributed to another person being hurt. 

Too many want to try and make themselves the innocent party.


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