# Not sure what do to



## Confusedhubby2013 (Oct 10, 2013)

Hello all, 

A bit of background. My wife and I have been together in total for around 12 years. As usual, things were great at first, then after a while I admittedly took our marriage for granted. That in fact lasted several years . To be specific, I got into online gaming and my usual ritual was get off work, eat dinner, go play games until midnight. How my wife coped with that I don't know. 

Fast forward to 3 years ago, we have our first child (a little girl). When my daughter is 1 I have somewhat of an epiphany, that this marriage is where I wanted to be and that the 2 women in my life are the only people I ever need. In that vein I cut out any video games except for times they are appropriate, wife goes to bed early because she has work the next day (she works shifts), a little on weekends, stuff like that. I also tried to be much more helpful around the house, just in general be there more and support my family more. Also worth noting is that after the birth of our child we went almost 2 years without sex. Much of that was due to the fact our daughter had some lingering health issues that sapped both our energy for year 1 and 2.

So as part of the new me I obviously talk to my wife, apologize for not being there for her and tell her I hope we can reset the clock so to speak. She accepts and agrees but then the problems start. I try to be more affectionate, a pat as I walk by, a kiss, I buy her flowers for special occasions (never used to), along with that I try to reinvigorate our love live, we have sex, sporadically at first but as time progresses I ask it to be more regular, basically I said once or twice a week is ok for me and she complies, but that's exactly what it is. She's being complicit, she's not having sex because she wants it and she will never initiate. Also, despite the extra chores, the more attention, the less distractions, she hasn't changed at all. While I never counted I would bet she would go days without touching me in any way shape or form. When she goes to work she kisses our daughter but never me (though I remind her). same when she goes to bed later than me, no kiss, just "goodnight" and off to sleep. I have tried to discuss it several times and tell her when I need and tell her I'm willing to do what's necessary to make it work and it always ends the same, she's going to try harder....which never works. Then the conversations turned into arguments, the last one she suggested counseling, I agreed, to which she retorted, Why, so someone else can tell me I'm wrong??. I sent her an email, telling her how sorry I was and that if she wanted to end the marriage I was ok, I wouldn't hold it against her, she was right to want to be out for the years of neglect. She read it and got angry with me. 

I also suggest date nights, doesn't have to be fancy, don't have to go out, could be a nice movie, bath, massage, nope, no interest. I practically had to beg for a bath and massage for my my birthday and it was more me massaging her than the other way around. I bought toys, hoping to spice things up, I will say that she allowed them and we tried, with mixed results. She also comes from a religious family and believes that masturbation is wrong. She's 40 years old and has NEVER touched herself. 

So here I am, about 16 months since my "transformation" and I feel like I'm 1 last argument away from going out the door. In my gut I honestly believe the only reason she keeps saying she doesn't want me to leave and wants to make this work (despite not seeing any real effort to do so) is because of the harsh reality that Divorce=Not being with her daughter 24/7. She seems perfectly happy with the completely loveless marriage we allowed ourselves to devolve into. As long as appearances are good on the surface (we rarely argue, people likely think we're a great couple) then she's happy. 

I can't stay this way, I have told her this. I'm just not sure what my next step is. Try and talk with her (likely won't end well). Suggest counseling (also won't end well). Send her another note (who knows how that will work out). Part of me is already planning what I'll do when I'm single again (not in an excited way, just more realistically setting myself up for what's ahead) and I wonder if I should do that while in the marriage? Find new hobbies, start going to the gym etc. In my head it sounds like a good idea but it's hard to find the motivation to reinvent myself when I'm trying to save my marriage. 

Sorry for the wall of text, though I don't seem to be alone is that regard


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

Well for a start it seems she would also agree to counselling. As you say if she is happy the way things are she wont change. The question really is if anything will make her change like divorce. 
You dont want change for change sake but you really want her to want it as well. This doesnt sound really possible at the moment.
You mention she is religious maybe that could somehow help.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

It's ultimatum time. Tell her you are not happy and that things have to change or you're headed for D. Tell her that the two of you have to come up with a plan and then DO IT. NO EXCUSES.

His Needs Her Needs is a good book to help discover each other. The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work had a LOT to do with saving my marriage.

Give it a time limit, though. Reevaluate in 6 months. If things haven't changed enough, then go ahead and file. Life is only so long.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

oops double post


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## Confusedhubby2013 (Oct 10, 2013)

That's exactly it as far as "sex" goes. She oversimplifies my needs into "you want sex". This is in spite of the fact that I have told her flat out that we could have sex every single day /365 but if that's all it is, that won't cut it. I'd rather have intimacy with less sex than more sex with no intimacy. 

The fact that I'm the one who changed is why I explicitly gave her an out. I say that but it's not entirely true. She blames me for making her as cold as she is now and I'm sure to an extent that true but my reply is, "If I made you this way shouldn't I be able to reverse it?". So far the answer has been a resounding "no". 

My biggest issue is that I let these things build up until it explodes. Usually that means me starting to get quiet over time as things get under my skin and I get irritable and she starts to notice it and will finally confront it. Tonight is a prime example. One of my main issues is that we don't have any quality time at all. If we're watching TV she HAS to have the iPhone and be on Facebook. She can't JUST watch sometime. There's always a distraction. So I have been suggesting over and over to find a sitter so we can go out to a movie, we finally did this weekend after about a 6 month drought, we went to a Sunday matinee, was nice but we weren't even home before she threw down the warning of how much sitters cost and we can ill afford to do this often. Despite the fact she's gone out twice in the last week with friends from work (granted this is rare). Another friend in town next week which will surely be atleast a 3rd night out in as many weeks. Those little things wear me down. Maybe I'm overreacting but the fact she HAS to comment on our first time out in 6 months that we can't afford it just ruins my otherwise good mood. We aren't wealthy people but we both have good paying careers, we are far from being in need. 

If anyone is questioning, I have 0 concerns as far as infidelity. She simply has no interest in a romantic relationship/sex I think. Not to sound like a shady character but I have at times checked her location using her smartphone service. She doesn't go out very often but when she does she's always exactly where she says she's going to be. Neither one of us hide anything as far as text messages, email, Facebook is concerned.

Edit:
Just wanted to add a thought.....starting to feel like a blog.

Coworker of hers quit and they are going out for dinner tonight. I'm jealous and I'm try to internally reason why and I think I have distilled it. She's going out for a social time with friends where her phone will stay in her purse. It won't be pulled out for Facebook updates, it won't be used to call Mom to gossip for an hour. It won't be used to to all the things she uses it for when we are home together alone. The time she is spending with her coworkers tonight is not something I get outside of going out for a quick lunch where we're always in a hurry to get somewhere. I didn't say anything to her because she would accuse me of trying to sabotage her evening. 

Will sleep on it and see if it's still bothering me tomorrow will have to get it off my chest. 

If I'm being crazy, tell me. Oddly enough I have always been very level tempered person, part of me hates this version of me that has these emotional up's and down's.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You sound exactly like my husband before he cheated. He kept things bottled up and finally spontaneously combusted.

I had zero concerns as far as infidelity also. The fact you checked up on her (which I have no problem with) says that you do in fact have concerns in that regard.

I am not saying she's cheating. But she's definitely checked out of the marriage.

Like I said, it's ultimatum time. Check out the books I posted about.


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## Confusedhubby2013 (Oct 10, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> I had zero concerns as far as infidelity also. The fact you checked up on her (which I have no problem with) says that you do in fact have concerns in that regard.
> about.


I believe she's honest about just not caring about romance any longer. I really do. She's the type of person who can't swear, I mean CAN'T. She blushes when she even tries. Can't lie to save her life either, she's a very straight shooter. She is fully committed to be being mega mommy. Everything else is just white noise I think. 

I'm not sure why I check up on her....perhaps it's me looking for the proverbial straw? I've been waiting for months for either her armor to finally crack and I start to see the old her, or go the other way and just have that last big fight. 

In some ways it's so silly and I've explained this to her. I'm really not asking for much. Just a little affection, attention, tenderness. Is that worth ending a marriage over?

I appreciate the advice. I will check out the books and I am going to suggest seeing a counselor before calling it quits. It just feels ridiculous to get a divorce when we get along perfectly fine from 8AM-8PM, it just falls apart when we're alone.

In your personal experience, was it you or your husband that was the frustrated one? I'm just curious if your husband felt neglected and cheated or you felt neglected and tried to fix things but he instead cheated?

I ask because I have put myself in those 2 sets of shoes and I come up with wildly different results. 

If I were to find my wife having an affair when I have put so much effort into trying to communicate and make our marriage stronger while she kept telling me nothing is wrong and she's happy, that would be absolutely unforgivable.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

You tried to make amends by being there for her and helping around the house and showing affection with flowers and other things and getting no where. 

Time to put on the brakes. Stop playing the nice guy and rolling over. if she doesn't want to make any attempts to improve then start thinking of yourself for a change. 

Start going out with your friends. Your allowed. If she complains that it's too expensive, tell her she has no problem with money when she goes out. 

Best advice to give you is this. The longer it goes on the harder the habit to break. Sit her down and tell her how you feel and let her know that time is running out and your tired of feeling left out and she either make a conscious effort to get off square one or your walking. Tell her in a way that she not only hears you but understands the seriousness of the situation. Let her chew on it and you will get your answer. Don't fall for the "let me think about it" crap. All that does is give her time to come up with another excuse. If she says she's unhappy and your the whole 100% blame, take responsibility for 50% of it and hand her the other 50. If she won't budge, then tell her she's free to pursue her happiness elsewhere.

Don't worry. You won't lose your kid. She knows who her Dad is and as long as your there for her and love her, she'll be fine.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Confusedhubby2013 said:


> In your personal experience, was it you or your husband that was the frustrated one? I'm just curious if your husband felt neglected and cheated or you felt neglected and tried to fix things but he instead cheated?


My husband was the frustrated one, for the most part. Here's a link to my story

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/32264-hello.html#post434954


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Just read your story Hope. You're a strong women to have put up with that crap and you're husband is lucky you have forgiven him.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Confusedhubby2013 said:


> tell her I'm willing to do what's necessary to make it work and it always ends the same, *she's going to try harder*....which never works.


I literally laughed in my wife's face the last time she said that.

She's gone. She's checked out. They don't come back after that. Change all you want. She's gone. She doesn't love you any more.

Cheating? Maybe she will. Maybe she won't. That's not what's going on now. And even if if is, that's not your problem. 

You are me. Your wife is my wife. You signed up yesterday. I signed up 3 years ago. It's my issue. 

180 time. You stay with this or you leave. There are no alternatives. You see how trying to fix it works, right?

2013 and men still don't know about walk-away-wives. Hell, WOMEN still don't know they are at a GREAT danger of walking away when they get married.

It's an epidemic. When are we going to DO SOMETHING about this.


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## Confusedhubby2013 (Oct 10, 2013)

I tried speaking to her when she got home last night. As usual, I attempted to have a civil discussion, it ended less than civil. I try my best to not make it sound like I'm complaining about her but last night I was less than perfect in that attempt. I tried to point out that she just spent 3 hours with friends and and asked her how many times she pulled out her phone to check Facebook or send a TM, answer was 0. My response to that was, that's exactly what I want, I want us to be able to sit down and watch TV for an evening WITHOUT the phone in your hands. Her response was typical, that I do the same with the laptop, which is true but sometimes I try and put it down to engage with her and she doesn't reciprocate. As I'm sure everyone fully appreciate it's very difficult to be completely impartial when speaking of your own relationship. My wife has been complicit with the things you can quantify. I said we weren't having sex often enough, so she complied and now we have sex much more regularly. I said we don't get to go out together at all, now we go out more regularly, albeit it's usually lunch dates while the little one is at school. 

I ended up just dropping it last night as I was getting nowhere. I took the day off today, we went out and did family things and had a great time. When we got back I said I just wanted to make a comment, after she groaned a little (not exactly unexpected at this point) and said "We just had a really nice day together, do you really need to ruin it?" I laid it out there a little more diplomatically this time. " You're right, we went out today and had a great time as a family. That's what's #1,2 and 3 priority to you. The family time. I love it too but...My idea of a perfect day is now that we had a great day as a family, once the little one is down, we sit down, watch a movie together, snuggle on the couch, no phones, no distractions and go to bed and have sex". She agreed so we shall see how the evening proceeds. 

A big part of my wife's issue is still the workload. She still works close to full time hours in a very physically and emotionally demanding job. On top of that we have a special needs child that requires allot of support. I split the child care workload pretty much 50/50 but I'm not the type of person who gets stressed out so it doesn't faze me. She stresses over EVERYTHING. I can work a 12 hour day, take my daughter to and from school, make dinner, put her to bed and when my wife gets home you'd think I had the day off. My wife often looks shellshocked.

I guess I'm trying to convey that as always the full picture is more than you can type without writing a book. I try and help her deflate and I think she's getting better. We shall see, the only thing I'm missing is the little stuff. Random kisses, having a bath together. smiles. It's hard to turn and run when I can see that's she's trying and not actually doing anything to make me question her character.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I'm noticing something interesting here -- for a long time, you completely distracted yourself from her and the marriage -- YOU were checked out. Then suddenly, 16 months ago, you had a change of heart. I can relate to that as a dad. It does something to you. It reawakens your love of life, or it can anyway. But regardless, until 16 months ago, you were checked out. Now all of the sudden you checked back in to find your wife checked out. But I wonder what the full backstory is? What was going on while you were gaming away your hours all that time? Was she looking for attention from you, and not getting it, to the point that she gave up? Or maybe you're both escapists, and your prior arrangement worked, and now that you've kind of "taken the red pill" so to speak -- woken up to what's actually going on, and you see that your wife is distracting yourself all the time, and you only didn't notice because you were so distracted yourself. I think this is something to think about hard -- maybe your marriage "worked" before because she was the kind of wife who was checked out enough to let you get away with your escapism. Or maybe she gave up on your marriage a long time ago, and your change was too late.


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## flynndsx (Oct 12, 2013)

The question really is if anything will make her change like divorce.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Confusedhubby2013 said:


> A big part of my wife's issue is still the workload. She still works close to full time hours in a very physically and emotionally demanding job. On top of that we have a special needs child that requires allot of support. I split the child care workload pretty much 50/50 but I'm not the type of person who gets stressed out so it doesn't faze me. She stresses over EVERYTHING. I can work a 12 hour day, take my daughter to and from school, make dinner, put her to bed and when my wife gets home you'd think I had the day off. My wife often looks shellshocked.
> 
> I guess I'm trying to convey that as always the full picture is more than you can type without writing a book. I try and help her deflate and I think she's getting better. We shall see, the only thing I'm missing is the little stuff. Random kisses, having a bath together. smiles. It's hard to turn and run when I can see that's she's trying and not actually doing anything to make me question her character.


Sounds to me like she is tired and does not have your stamina? Life is very different once the children arrive (especially if problems come with them).


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## Confusedhubby2013 (Oct 10, 2013)

John Lee said:


> I'm noticing something interesting here -- for a long time, you completely distracted yourself from her and the marriage -- YOU were checked out. Then suddenly, 16 months ago, you had a change of heart. I can relate to that as a dad. It does something to you. It reawakens your love of life, or it can anyway. But regardless, until 16 months ago, you were checked out. Now all of the sudden you checked back in to find your wife checked out. But I wonder what the full backstory is? What was going on while you were gaming away your hours all that time? Was she looking for attention from you, and not getting it, to the point that she gave up? Or maybe you're both escapists, and your prior arrangement worked, and now that you've kind of "taken the red pill" so to speak -- woken up to what's actually going on, and you see that your wife is distracting yourself all the time, and you only didn't notice because you were so distracted yourself. I think this is something to think about hard -- maybe your marriage "worked" before because she was the kind of wife who was checked out enough to let you get away with your escapism. Or maybe she gave up on your marriage a long time ago, and your change was too late.


You're exactly right, I was checked out. I used to game a fair amount earlier in the relationship but at the time we had 2 things that we don't now.

1: Friends, even though I gamed we still had mutual friends we did stuff with so there was a balance

2: We used to live in a 1 bedroom so my PC was setup 5' away from her so even though we were both doing different things we were close enough to chat and stuff. 

Once we moved to our current town and current home both those went away and I drew further away from her as I was in the basement and any conversation was difficult. There was never a time where she confronted me in the way I am with her now so I'm not sure if she was ok with my behavior all along or just slowly changed herself. I do recall several regretful events were she tried to imitate something romantic and I shot her down. 

We don't have a typical existence. We have lived in our current town for 10 years and have 0 friends. My wife will go out for lunch or dinner with her coworkers every blue moon. I work from home and all my coworkers live over an hour away. My wife fills her days with work, raising a child, facebook and speaking on the phone. Her 2 best friends in the world are her mom and her sister in law. Never goes out for a reason other than shopping or eating. Even then, since having a child she never buys herself things anymore, the people at the kids clothing place know her by name and we live in a city 150K+ people. 

So I'm trying not to do something drastic, she put up with me for years and never left. She's trying, we had a nice enough evening last night. It's just that every so often it feels like we are starting to go off the tracks again and I need to speak up which would be easier if she didn't blow up every time I want to talk. Once she assumed the role of Mother it feels like she kinda left behind the role of Wife. I think my wife may well be one of those people that if we ever got divorced she would be happy enough to stay single forever.


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## Confusedhubby2013 (Oct 10, 2013)

tryingtobebetter said:


> Sounds to me like she is tired and does not have your stamina? Life is very different once the children arrive (especially if problems come with them).


She does work in a stressful job that has her on her feet for 12 hours straight. For the majority of our relationship she's been the big breadwinner. She had her career when she met me and I was in a near minimum wage job with a high school education. We are at parity as far as pay goes now but she still handles most household stuff because she was doing all that stuff when we met and I still lived at home (she's a few years older and I was a teenager when we met). I have offered to take certain chores away from her under the strict condition that they are mine and she doesn't get to complain. (she's bit of a perfectionist. It takes her 10-12 hours to decorate a Christmas tree). Anyway, she couldn't agree to completely drop any chore. I refuse to help her with her chores because it never ends well. We're out washing our cars one day and I just finish sudsing up 1 side of the car I was washing, I turn around and she's right behind me, I ask her what she's doing to which she responds "getting the spots you missed". So yeah, she takes the world on her shoulders and I'm in a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario. I used to have a saying, "I'd rather you be angry with me for doing nothing than angry at me for doing something". It's a good thing she doesn't have to manage people for a living because she's quite terrible at managing me  Those complaints have mostly died since having a child as I do ALLOT more, I am especially a lifesaver with the little one because I can get her to do all the things she refuses to do for mom.


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## Confusedhubby2013 (Oct 10, 2013)

Wanted to update my thread. The last post regarding the nice evening went as planned. Nice day from start to end. 

Last week we had a sudden death in the family on my side. It got me thinking of the whole, how would my wife react if something happened to me tomorrow? The answer I told myself wasn't pretty. I tried to talk to her about it, she said she was incredibly hurt I would even say it. In retrospect I agree, it was bad form on my part. Part of that conversation revolved around how I still don't let things happen naturally, that the nice evening we had could have still have been had without me setting an expectation beforehand....fair enough. 

This week a mutual friend is in town and staying with us for a week. We always have a great time with her. We planned a REAL night out, little one had a sleepover with her cousin. First time in many months we didn't have to worry about getting home before bedtime for little one. Had an awesome night. My wife is in a great mood all night, we get home, she instantly switches to "I'm sooooo tired", go upstairs, I tried to initiate sex and I get "no". That's it, just "no". I can't sleep the entire night. I'm just imagining my future as a single man. 

Next morning she sees my telltale quiet mood, confronts me, calls me childish for reacting that way because we didn't have sex. 

That was 3 days ago, no word has been spoken of it since. Yesterday, she and the friend went on a day trip shopping. I decided to try sending her an email to try and explain my position. That I wasn't upset because we didn't have sex, I was upset because I keep waiting for her to show some real interest in a physical relationship with me, that Saturday night was the perfect opportunity and instead I got a cold "no". I told her she could have handled that situation a dozen different ways that would have changed the outcome but didn't. 

I'm refusing to start another conversation on the topic, I think she's getting frustrated that I always want to talk (argue). She's acting as though the incident didn't happen at all at this point. She's being polite to me, kisses me when she goes to bed which can be a rarity but has yet to say anything regarding the weekend itself or the email I sent her (I know her email habits and can say for certain she read it). I'm still in my funk, I'm answering questions when asked and engaging in a polite amount of conversation but I'm sure she's perfectly aware I'm still in my mood.


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