# What is acceptable with a friend from the opposite sex?



## Sophie in Canada (Jun 22, 2020)

Please allow me to write the details of the incident as I believe it is necessary for you to have opinions. This is my version of the story. My husband, Mike will be posting his statement right after this posting. I am hoping that you read both sides of the story, ask us questions and share your thoughts on this incident and what is commonly acceptable for married couples.
* 
Narrative (Sophie’s version)*
Mike was planning to go skiing trip overnight to Whistler. He was hoping to go with many people. His wife, Sophie didn’t plan to go as she was working. He asked Pat who is the most active member of the people he goes skiing with on a regular basis. Mike has been expressing that Pat is his most favorite person for skiing activity as she is as passionate and good as he is. Sophie warned Mike if he crosses the line with Pat that would ruin our marriage and his friendship with her boyfriend.
Mike told Sophie that there are 3 people on this trip, himself and Pat and her male friend, Will who is also a regular member of their skiing activity. Pat’s boyfriend wasn’t planning to go as he was working. The night before the trip Mike told Sophie that it will be only him and Pat going this trip as Will is not going. Mike explained that he never contacted Will directly but he assumed Will was going. According to Mike, Pat was clear that her boyfriend is not going but she was not clear if Will was going (Pat knew Will was not going as he was outside the country. She also texted Mike that she will be the only one attending to this trip a week before the trip)
Sophie was not happy about how Mike misrepresented the information to her and told him that the trip especially overnight alone with person of opposite sex is not acceptable. Mike told Sophie that there are a few other people who may join the trip. Sophie pointed out that it is not likely for these people to join the trip as they are not responding by the night before the trip. Mike agreed but he was determined to go on an overnight trip with Pat.
There was a stormy argument over this and Mike gave up the overnight and changed it to the day trip but Sophie and Mike were not able to come to a peaceful agreement over this incident. Mike does not want to give up opportunities to go skiing with Pat in the future. Sophie does not wish to join them after this incident as she believes Pat does not have enough respect to her.
He does not agree with the condition Sophie presented which is “he can go skiing with Pat if her boyfriend is together.”

*Background:*
Mike had inappropriate action towards Sophie’s friend at a home party when they became alone 6 months before this incident. Because of this incident both Mike and Sophie signed the marriage agreement stating the penalties of infidelity including meeting with another person of opposite sex without the acknowledgement or permission of the spouse.
* 
Sophie’s statement:*
I never complained when he went skiing with Pat and her friends until this incident. I was cooperative for this overnight Whistler trip by preparing our car with full tank gas and roof top carrier as Mike was looking forward to this trip. But I feel that Mike is not respecting me as a partner by giving me inaccurate information in the process and attempting to go overnight trip with Pat even after finding out that only two of them are going. Mike may not be attracted to Pat as a woman now but I think there is a possibility for any romance if they are spending time alone sharing the same passion. I draw the line by avoiding being alone with opposite sex whom I can be attracted to after the marriage.
Our styles used to be similar, not controlling and open-minded but now I have become controlling and jealous. And I am sad to have these traits which I hate as much as Mike hates. And I wish I can trust Mike as much as he wishes but he almost broke our marriage 6 months ago.

This must be the one the longest postings. Thank you for reading until the end.


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## Sophie's husband Mike (Jun 24, 2020)

*Sophie's husband Mike’s statement:
*
As for the narrative, I agree. I also agree an overnight alone with the opposite sex would be inappropriate.

My only argument is the restriction that Pat’s boyfriend be present for skiing or trips.
I do not agree with Sophie that I was deceitful about the cancelled overnight trip as I told her about the developing circumstances (only Pat going) prior to leaving. This is her reason for the restriction.

I do not want to put my marriage at risk. I just don’t want to miss out on opportunities that are appropriate. My wife is always welcome and encouraged to attend.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

This is a no brainer don't need Mike's version at all. For most it crosses way to many lines. But it doesn't matter what it is for most. It crosses Sophia's lines. If Mike was invested in the marriage he wouldn't put it at risk like this.

Sophia it isn't Pat who is disrespecting you. It is Mike.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> *Sophie's husband Mike’s statement:*
> 
> As for the narrative, I agree. I also agree an overnight alone with the opposite sex would be inappropriate.
> 
> ...


You are literally choosing 'skiing with Pat' over your relationship with your wife. There is something incredibly amiss here. How long have you two been married? Have you never had the inappropriate relationship discussion before this?

Each couple should discuss (before others are involved like now) what appropriate boundaries are for your relationship. Only what each of you think is important. We have relationships here on TAM that would let you sleep with others and still be good. Then we have others you wouldn't be allowed to have conversations with the opposite sex. IT goes all over but the only thing that matters is your own agreement that makes your marriage stronger.

The problem is now a 3rd party is involved. That often times skews views.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sophie in Canada said:


> *Background:*
> Mike had inappropriate action towards Sophie’s friend at a home party when they became alone 6 months before this incident. Because of this incident both Mike and Sophie signed the marriage agreement stating the penalties of infidelity including meeting with another person of opposite sex without the acknowledgement or permission of the spouse.


@*Sophie's husband Mike*
Would you please explain what happened in this situation, and why your wife doesn't trust you as much because of it...?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Sorry, Mike, but you have already put your marriage at risk. Many women would already be done at this point so if Sophie doesn’t want you on overnight trips with Pat or any other female then there won’t be any if you want to remain married. My opinion is that you’re putting your fun before your marriage. That’s a quick way to end up divorced.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Sophie in Canada said:


> Please allow me to write the details of the incident as I believe it is necessary for you to have opinions. This is my version of the story. My husband, Mike will be posting his statement right after this posting. I am hoping that you read both sides of the story, ask us questions and share your thoughts on this incident and what is commonly acceptable for married couples.
> *
> Narrative (Sophie’s version)*
> Mike was planning to go skiing trip overnight to Whistler. He was hoping to go with many people. His wife, Sophie didn’t plan to go as she was working. He asked Pat who is the most active member of the people he goes skiing with on a regular basis. Mike has been expressing that Pat is his most favorite person for skiing activity as she is as passionate and good as he is. Sophie warned Mike if he crosses the line with Pat that would ruin our marriage and his friendship with her boyfriend.
> ...


I didn't follow your rules.....I have only read Sophie's version. To be honest I have only read HALF of Sophie's version. That is all I need to know. I will go back and finish reading the rest but THIS IS 100% INAPPROPRIATE AND YOU NEED RELATIONSHIP BOUNDARIES!!!!
I do not care how good of a friend or how platonic of a friend, you NEVER go on travels alone with a member of the opposite sex alone without your mate. 
Are you crazy???
Like I said I'll go back and finish reading, I do not know if this is still pending but if it is CANCEL THIS NOW. 
I do not care if you are perfectly well behaved, you do not take trips with other women, not your wife. 
Nothing good can come of this. Why would the man even try this? He shouldn't have tried it with just three people but now that it is just him and her ALONE....traveling, cancel it. 

What kind of selfish, no boundaries, anything goes, I do anything I want anytime I want person would even want to go traveling with another woman while the wife is home.

This is just idiotic. Gets some good, healthy relationship boundaries people.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> *Sophie's husband Mike’s statement:*
> 
> As for the narrative, I agree. I also agree an overnight alone with the opposite sex would be inappropriate.
> 
> ...


Well I already answered once based on the first half of her post......Husband traveling ALONE with another woman for ski trip.
I went off on how idiotic this is and it displays horrible boundaries of protecting a marriage relationship.

What I want to know, now that this is cancelled, what were you going to do if she didn't object? That isn't clear. If your wife didn't object, would you have cancelled it or gone?
Were you ok with going when it was just 3 of you but basically you could be alone with this other woman constantly. 

Also, what were the sleeping arrangements going to be? How many nights away from your mate?

It sounds like you wanting to go traveling with other women....and without your wife is going to be the cause of lots of strife down the road. 
You sound like the selfish type who expects to act like you are single and do anything with other women anytime you want and that you do not have a marriage to honor. 
You are trying to push the boundaries and claim freedom. 
Maybe you shouldn't have married....you could go skiing with anyone you wanted then.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> This is a no brainer don't need Mike's version at all. For most it crosses way to many lines. But it doesn't matter what it is for most. It crosses Sophia's lines. If Mike was invested in the marriage he wouldn't put it at risk like this.
> 
> Sophia it isn't Pat who is disrespecting you. It is Mike.


BUT Pat is disrespecting her BF.
Was Pat going to go alone with Mike if Sophie hadn't complained?
Pat's BF is fine with her traveling alone with other men?

You see, there are the "trust" meisters out there who throw trust out endlessly. Don't you trust your mate, if you do not trust them why are you with them....gotta have trust. 

To that I'd say, even if they do not kiss or have an affair....it is just too close, too intimate, alone sharing every activity, the talking and sharing, the personal nature of it all. It doesn't have to be full blown sex to still be inappropriate and for a mate to take offense.

Also, maybe your mate TRUSTS you to not put strain on things and to push trust TOO FAR.


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## Sophie in Canada (Jun 22, 2020)

*Mike’s statement:*

As for the narrative, I agree. I also agreeSophia it isn't Pat who is disrespecting you. It is Mike.
[/QUOTE


Anastasia6 said:


> This is a no brainer don't need Mike's version at all. For most it crosses way to many lines. But it doesn't matter what it is for most. It crosses Sophia's lines. If Mike was invested in the marriage he wouldn't put it at risk like this.
> 
> Sophia it isn't Pat who is disrespecting you. It is Mike.





Anastasia6 said:


> This is a no brainer don't need Mike's version at all. For most it crosses way to many lines. But it doesn't matter what it is for most. It crosses Sophia's lines. If Mike was invested in the marriage he wouldn't put it at risk like this.
> 
> Sophia it isn't Pat who is disrespecting you. It is Mike.


Thank you for your input Anastasia6. Yes, I do blame Mike not Pat.
But would you go on a trip with someone knowing his wife is strongly against it and you care about her? but I understand what you meant. I don't want to lose my focus on the core of the issue.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If you can't mutually agree on appropriate rules and boundaries, split up. Hers are more restrictive than yours, and apparently for a reason. If you disagree, either work out something else together, or leave. You get to choose.

It sounds like your wife does not really trust you. Is this incident about poor communication, or did you withhold information? If the latter, she's got a good point. If the former, then perhaps not - but you'd need to work on this. It also depends on how far you're willing to push to be able to do things with friends who happen to be the opposite sex. We have few restrictions in our relationship regarding friends of any kind, but we have great communication and very clear, mutually agreed boundaries.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Sophie in Canada said:


> *Background:*
> Mike had inappropriate action towards Sophie’s friend at a home party when they became alone 6 months before this incident.


Sorry, Mike, ya done goofed bad.

Sophie's conditions and restrictions are reasonable, and maybe I, dare say, too lax.


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## nypsychnurse (Jan 13, 2019)

Mike...if you don't want to put your marriage at risk...then don't...this is a no brainer

Sophie...It sucks to be you...been there...hope that Mike is more respectful of you and your boundaries in the future

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Sophie in Canada said:


> *Mike’s statement:*
> 
> As for the narrative, I agree. I also agreeSophia it isn't Pat who is disrespecting you. It is Mike.
> [/QUOTE
> ...


No I wouldn't go on the trip but that's because me and my husband discussed these boundaries early in our relationship and agreed.
Overnights with the opposite sex would be no. A big group ok. Edited to add: we also wouldn't choose to go without the other just because we wouldn't want to.
We also agreed we would never work closely with someone of the opposite sex. IT isn't about trust. I trust my husband he trusts me. But this is how accidental emotional relationships which are also a form of infidelity and frequently lead to physical infidelity start. Most people don't mean to .... it just happened. Well in reality it doesn't just happen.
We decided to affair proof our marriage because we cherish it.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Mike, you don't take into account your wife's feelings becauase skiing with Pat is more important. 
You showed you are willing to put your marriage at risk as long as you go skiing with Pat.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Mike has already chosen Pat over Sophie just by arguing about it.

He has proven to be unfaithful by the actions 6 months ago and now wants to be trusted to go on a overnight ski trip with another woman.

If Pat knows you had a problem with this, she should have backed out of it as well. Are you sure she is a friend?

The problem is with your husband and Pat both.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Sophie is right. Mike is in the wrong.

It is absolutely inappropriate for two people of the opposite sex to travel alone together, when one or both of them is in a relationship with someone else. If they're both single, no problem.

I'm honestly gobsmacked that Mike thought this was in any way ok. And yes, he did withhold info - he knew for a week before he told Sophie that it would just be him and Pat.

Mike and Pat are both in the wrong. @Sophie in Canada keep your wits about you around Pat...any woman who is willing to go away with another woman's husband is not a friend of your marriage.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

@Sophie in Canada @Sophie's husband Mike 
So did this question turn out the way you thought?
You two decide what to do going forward?


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> *Sophie's husband Mike’s statement:*
> 
> As for the narrative, I agree. I also agree an overnight alone with the opposite sex would be inappropriate.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you've already strained your wife's ability to trust you. Given that, I just don't see how you could think the skiing trip alone with "Pat" is reasonable. 

Pushing this issue is going to further erode trust. 

If you really don't want to put your marriage at risk, you'll stop pushing, make changes on who you spend time alone with, and be open and candid with your W about these things. You don't need to act like a chastised dog about it; make the changes to your plans and behavior she asked, and move on. She should thank you and drop it going forward as well (if you do, but it becomes a continuous issue for her, well, then there's something else wrong with the marriage).

I'd also like to know how long you two have been married... I'm guessing not very long.


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

As an aside... I do know people who are married and have maintained friendships with members of the opposite gender that existed prior to marriage. But in all cases, from the outside, you could tell that these were purely platonic and no physical attraction was going on there. I don't know how else to describe it, beyond an "_I know it when I see it_" standard, but that's what it was: they were just friends (and made an effort to become friends with eachother's spouses). 

these are exceedingly rare... like I know one or two people like that, out of all the people I've met in my life. 

SO while I think men and women can be friends that do things alone together... it's so rare, _most shouldn't try_.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@Sophie in Canada @Sophie's husband Mike 

Here is my definition of infidelity: "Giving anything other than 100% of your affection, loyalty and companionship to anyone other than your spouse." (This applies to adult, opposite sex people--not children, grandchildren or parents/siblings.) 100% means there is 0% available to anyone else, period. 

In my opinion there was definitely loyalty given to Pat and "skiining with Pat" because if there was no loyalty and Sophie mentioned it, Mike would says something like, 'Oh okay' and not defend it. There's also clearly companionship given to Pat, because they are mutually pursuing a hobby they have that Sophie does not or has to a lesser degree. It's less clear if affection was given, but if you consider that the definition of affection is "a gentle feeling of fondness or liking"... well it would appear to me as if Mike has at least a minimum of affection for Pat. 

Therefore I see it like this: when a person voluntarily marries another, they make certain promises. Traditional vows say something like "...I take you as my spouse for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness or health, forsaking all others, as long as we both shall live." To my mind, that promise means that you volunteer to give 100% of your affection, loyalty and companionship to only your spouse...that you volunteer to forsake all others...and that you will give 100% as long as both of you are alive. Sophie is alive. So that means 100% of Mike's affection, loyalty and companionship ARE HERS, and it is right and reasonable for her to keep them for herself. 

That's not jealousy or control--that expecting a spouse to honor their word!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> Therefore I see it like this: when a person voluntarily marries another, they make certain promises. Traditional vows say something like "...I take you as my spouse for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness or health, forsaking all others, as long as we both shall live." To my mind, *that promise means that you volunteer to give 100% of your affection, loyalty and companionship to only your spouse...that you volunteer to forsake all others...and that you will give 100% as long as both of you are alive*. Sophie is alive. So that means 100% of Mike's affection, loyalty and companionship ARE HERS, and it is right and reasonable for her to keep them for herself.
> 
> That's not jealousy or control--that expecting a spouse to honor their word!


Nonsense! That would mean no affection loyalty, or companionship for children, parents, family, employer (loyalty). or friends. Fidelity, yes, if you've promised that - as for the rest, a resounding NO!


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## cheapie (Aug 6, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> Nonsense! That would mean no affection loyalty, or companionship for children, parents, family, employer (loyalty). or friends. Fidelity, yes, if you've promised that - as for the rest, a resounding NO!


You missed her first paragraph. She specifically says this does not apply to children, grandchildren, parents, etc.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

I'm with Sophie. H made a poor choice with handling this. H should respect Sophie's concerns and asking that he not go on the trip. Besides, H has a bit of a history here. 

Sorry H, you dun-screwed up here.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> Nonsense! That would mean no affection loyalty, or companionship for children, parents, family, employer (loyalty). or friends. Fidelity, yes, if you've promised that - as for the rest, a resounding NO!


Just to clarify, @cheapie got it exactly correct. Obviously people give affection, loyalty and companionship to their children, their parents, their siblings... That's familial love and quite a different thing. 

But between adults who are of a consenting age, who are the gender for which a person has romantic feelings and is physically attracted, that's where this rule applies. For example, clearly "opposite sex" wouldn't work for a homosexual person, and not everyone is cisgender or binary. Thus, when I married EB, I volunteered to give 100% of my affection, loyalty and companionship to him and him alone. That means 0% to any other human being to whom I am attracted or for whom I might feel romantic feelings...whatever that gender or sexual orientation might be. He gets it all.

Same here. Mike volunteered to marry Sophie. He made promises to her (in their own words), and now his affection, loyalty and companionship are hers 100%.

ETA: Other people can define it other ways. I'm just sharing how I define it and my own personal opinion. Feel free to have a different opinion--we don't have to agree.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Sophie in Canada said:


> Please allow me to write the details of the incident as I believe it is necessary for you to have opinions. This is my version of the story. My husband, Mike will be posting his statement right after this posting. I am hoping that you read both sides of the story, ask us questions and share your thoughts on this incident and what is commonly acceptable for married couples.
> *
> Narrative (Sophie’s version)*
> Mike was planning to go skiing trip overnight to Whistler. He was hoping to go with many people. His wife, Sophie didn’t plan to go as she was working. He asked Pat who is the most active member of the people he goes skiing with on a regular basis. Mike has been expressing that Pat is his most favorite person for skiing activity as she is as passionate and good as he is. Sophie warned Mike if he crosses the line with Pat that would ruin our marriage and his friendship with her boyfriend.
> ...


 The short answer to the question, is that there is no one standard. There are those who have no issues with their SO being with a person other than themselves (in the manner described by Affaircare.). And the other far end of the spectrum is they can't stand their SO to be with anyone else, including the SO's family.

As to this situation, I would say that Mike wasn't being dishonest or intentionally trying to cover things up. Mind you, I am getting this from the posts, and Mike is free to correct me. Doesn't mean that he didn't make mistakes or could have handled it better, but I don't believe that deceit was the intent. And I can see him, as a typical male, getting focused on the trip, and a friend that he probably doesn't really see as female (at this point) and forgetting that Sophie clearly sees the friend as female. However, Mike, this soon after an incident, you should have been more aware. You need to be alert for the next few years, because any little thing is going to seem WAY more than what it might be because of your mess up.

The two of you might want to consider counseling. Get someone to help you talk to each other in a way to ensure you both understand the other. Figure out what your boundaries are, and what freedoms you might want to have. If you can't agree or compromise (actually compromise, not just give in), then it's splitsville. Otherwise, you might need to work on changing your thinking and learn how to see things as your spouse does.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

OP, can you clarify? 
The outing has been cancelled but was Mike still planning on going, overnight, alone with this other woman....as long as Sophie didn't object?
It is not clear as to when and how the cancellation took place. Did he cancel it because he'd be alone, spending a lot of personal one on one, quality time with her and it was done independent of the wife objecting...
or...
Was he all set to go and was 100% prepared to spend several days, overnight, traveling and having total one on one, quality, bonding, focused time with this other woman and it was only cancelling because the wife challenged it?


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## Natalia Smithers (Jun 26, 2020)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> *Sophie's husband Mike’s statement:*
> 
> As for the narrative, I agree. I also agree an overnight alone with the opposite sex would be inappropriate.
> 
> ...


Hello
I just joined this forum and found this thread is pretty interesting since I’m having something similar going on in my life as well...

Here are 2 questions, Mike.

Is Pat attractive considering her look and personality?

Would you have sex with her if you didn’t have Sophie and Pat didn’t have a boyfriend?

You don’t have to answer these questions here or to your wife BUT
If your answer is yes, I think you are playing with fire by sharing your passion alone with her as Sophie said.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

I'm fearful that Mike's indiscretion 6 months ago (WHAT WAS IT?) was too big a crack in the foundation of this marriage. Trust is gone and Mike does not seem to recognize the pain--yes pain--he is causing his wife. They had a stormy argument. He knew a week ahead and likely misrepresented to Sophie. Did Pat and Mike go on a day trip alone?

I'm pretty rigid in some matters and I see this as two strikes for Mike. And I am not sure that agreement on boundaries will ever happen as a permanent thing because the divide and consideration for spouse is a chasm too deep. One will feel guilty; one will feel cheated and on and on and on. Did this couple have any pre-marriage counseling? The components of my definition of marriage are missing from this relationship.


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## Sophie's husband Mike (Jun 24, 2020)

Thank you for your time and opinions. To clarify, I agree that many comments are thoughtful and as a whole not wrong when looking at the big picture. I am not trying to defend inappropriate behavior from the past and I realize that I am lucky to be married. Sophie and I had set out the boundaries after the previous incident and were basically fine prior to this issue arising.

We are all known to each other and had spent time in the past. Sophie even was fine with myself, Pat and her friend to go on an overnight trip to Whistler along with possibly a few others. It was this trip planned that several days prior to the trip I found out that the friend was actually out of Canada and not attending. The night before the trip when it was obvious that nobody else was coming other than Pat, I told Sophie. Sophie, feeling that I was deceitful about who was attending the trip was not happy obviously so the trip was changed to a one day instead of a two day trip.

Sophie insisted from then on that Pat’s boyfriend, who is a friend of mine, be on any trip with Pat.

A subsequent trip was missed with Pat and two of her friends {who are also my friends} because I could not meet this condition.

There is no bad history with Pat. Pat’s boyfriend was aware of the trips planned and is fine with the arrangement. But, Pat’s boyfriend is not as passionate about snowboarding as Pat and only attends periodically. 

Although we all agree I should probably burn in purgatory for eternity for the past indiscretions this is my issue: 

Do I need to miss out on future trips with any friends, including my own friends, and Pat sometimes, because her boyfriend is not there?

Sophie feels that because I am fighting hard to change this, I must have other motives. I am only trying to avoid watching lost opportunities with friends disappear.

I am not asking to go alone with Pat overnight… Just to go if the circumstances are reasonable, and I am only trying to set out the boundaries clearly before next season. I feel that my request to change the conditions of Pat’s boyfriend present to some other people present is not unreasonable.

Again, thank you for the time and I know I am not popular, however, good or bad, please tell me if I am being unreasonable in requesting this change in conditions. All I ask is that you imagine an activity that you are passionate about and possibly share with friends when considering this situation.

I love Sophie. I am not trying to make her unhappy with reckless decisions. But I have a life too.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Sophie in Canada said:


> ... and what is commonly acceptable for married couples.


I think it really only matters what is acceptable to you both, as a couple.

However, for the sake of chiming in, this wouldn't fly in our marriage.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

You love Sophie. You love snowboarding more--especially with certain friends. You do have a life and a choice of what is most important to you. Boundaries do not have to be reasonable, but you agreed after your first screw-up. Your continued frustration and feeling of unfair treatment would be very telling to me if I were Sophie. To me, your focus is on the wrong problem which is also telling.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

And for context with my response, the beautiful thing about a relationship is figuring it out as you go along, and navigating the scenarios together.

A while back, there was a group from my work that would sometimes hang out. One guy was into music and would invite Batman and I to gigs from time to time. We were meant to attend a gig with him and his new girlfriend. Batman came down with the flu and couldn't make it, but was okay for me to still go. The guy picked me up; I thought we were then heading to pick up his girlfriend, but turns out she couldn't make it either. I didn't know this beforehand. We enjoyed the gig, he dropped me back home. Nothing untoward. Batman isn't typically the jealous kind, but was a bit funky that it had just been the two of us; suggested he fancied me. I called nonsense.

Fast-forward a bit in time, didn't have regular contact with that crowd then, when guy reaches out to me that he's got group tickets to Stone Temple Pilots. Batman isn't a fan but was up for going. Great! Afterwards, Batman reiterated he felt this guy fancied me. Being a royal d*ck-head that I can be sometimes, or back then at least, I said nah, he's more like an annoying brother. Months go by, he invites us to a comedy gig; again as a group. Met his girlfriend this time. First thing she said upon meeting us, was how he talks about me and she was glad to finally meet. Batman gave me the raised eyebrow. The eyebrow speaks volumes ha ha. And after that night, we didn't seem him again. That was years ago, but reflecting back, it's irrelevant whether the guy felt more of a connection than I did, or not; it caused Batman to raise his eyebrow... and that's not cool to feel that within our social group as a couple.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Mike, Sophie is giving the raised eyebrow.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> Do I need to miss out on future trips with any friends, including my own friends, and Pat sometimes, because her boyfriend is not there?


In my opinion - and it's just that, mine, I would be fine with you going without Pat's bf there, provided there was a large group of you, and you didn't spend cosy nights at the bar/lounge with a woman.

Sophie has said this is a boundary for her, and she has every right to set and enforce it, just as you have every right to say nope, not doing that - but know that doing that will likely end your marriage.

You have to decide if this is a hill you want to die on. If it puts your marriage at risk, is it really worth it?

To me, if something I'm doing causes my husband stress or makes him uneasy, there's no two ways about it. I'm going to stop doing it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Your wife isn’t happy. Do you want to be married or single?


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## Natalia Smithers (Jun 26, 2020)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> Thank you for your time and opinions. To clarify, I agree that many comments are thoughtful and as a whole not wrong when looking at the big picture. I am not trying to defend inappropriate behavior from the past and I realize that I am lucky to be married. Sophie and I had set out the boundaries after the previous incident and were basically fine prior to this issue arising.
> 
> We are all known to each other and had spent time in the past. Sophie even was fine with myself, Pat and her friend to go on an overnight trip to Whistler along with possibly a few others. It was this trip planned that several days prior to the trip I found out that the friend was actually out of Canada and not attending. The night before the trip when it was obvious that nobody else was coming other than Pat, I told Sophie. Sophie, feeling that I was deceitful about who was attending the trip was not happy obviously so the trip was changed to a one day instead of a two day trip.
> 
> ...


To Mike,

This issue might be simple to solve.
If you love your wife and if you also love snowboarding, why don’t you arrange snowboarding trip with some other friends?

How can you say you are passionate to snowboarding if you have to go snowboarding with only certain people.
Is Pat an “essential element” to make snowboarding more interesting?

You’re saying that you are missing out some trips due to the condition and you still want to go with Pat if there’s reasonable circumstance.
Even if you give up some trips due to condition (Pat but not her boyfriend coming), you can still organize other trips with the rest of your friends to make up.
You know Sophie will not be happy if you go snowboarding with Pat without her boyfriend no matter how many other friends are going together. Why would you still insist to do that if you really love Sophie?

I think Sophie proposed a very reasonable condition (if Pat and her boyfriend is there, then you can go with them). She still let you go and enjoy snowboarding with Pat if her boyfriend is there. I think Sophie respects your life a lot.

Now it seems, it really depends on you.


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## Sophie in Canada (Jun 22, 2020)

First of all, thank you all for your time and comments. I am not posting as many as I wish since I am working but I really appreciate your input. To answer someone's question, we are together 20 years and married for 9 years.

I would like to add more to the original incident after I read Mike's writing about the unfairness he is getting from me in his last posting.


He did not go overnight to Whistler with Pat but changed it to a day trip because of my disagreement. Pat knows about our stormy argument.


Mike and Pat planned another overnight trip to Whistler with her two girlfriends. I was not happy but did not stop him. He told me that he stayed in a hotel alone as the accommodation girl's arranged did not have enough space.


Mike and I had a talk. I told Mike that I can agree with overnight ski trip with Pat if her boyfriend is joining. But I will not join them since I did not think Pat had any respect for me. Mike agreed with this condition.

Pat and Mike planed another overnight trip to Whistler, this time with her boyfriend and another couple. I was ok with this trip as her boyfriend will be there. But her boyfriend decided not to go. Mike insisted to go. We had another stormy argument until late night. Mike knows how unhappy I was. I could not sleep that night and had to skip work the next day. Mike canceled the trip.

Mike and I made peace and went snowboarding without Pat several times before the pandemic. My snowboarding skill was improving to intermediate level very quickly and I was happy.

We bought a season pass for the local mountain for this winter. Mike also bought Whistler season pass. We discussed that it’s not worth it for me to buy a season pass as I won’t be able to go as much as Mike because of my work and I can receive a discount as + 1 of a season pass holder. I was looking forward to this winter as I truly enjoy it and I want to be as good as Mike so I can be the one he wants to share his passion with.

I recently found out that Mike and Pat were texting each other about Whistler season pass and she also bought a season pass. My heart sank thinking about what I may have to put up with again. I asked Mike if he is planning to go with Pat. He denied when I asked him but now it is obvious that he is hoping to go with Pat (and her friends)

This was the restart of our ski trip argument. 

Thanks again for reading my long posting. My posting may sound emotionless and boring but try to write just a fact so people can see this issue objectively...and I am open minded to listen to someone supporting Mike.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

I think the “legalism” displayed by Mine regarding what makes it ok and what not, and the idea that it’s ok if Pat has some of her girlfriends there instead of her boyfriend... if I’m reading it right, one woman is bad but ok it two or three unaccompanied women? It hardly seems worth debating. It’s just wrong.

Beyond that, an interactive shared passion with someone of the opposite sex and similar age is an invitation to trouble or, at the very least, misunderstandings.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

My feeling is that you should not go skiing unless its either with your wife or with another man. Neither of you have said what the incident was 6 months ago but that has a bearing on it. Was it a kiss? Something sexual? Either way it shows that you can't be trusted alone with another woman so you need good boundaries.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

SH Mike, we don’t know what you did 6 months ago, which is fine. BIt you betrayed Sophie’s trust. It takes years to repair that type of damage, even then the trusty is never fully restored.

To answer your question about missed opportunities. Yes you need to give them up if you want your marriage. You screwed up and lost Sophie’s trust in you. You need to step up and realize the damage you have caused by your actions.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Sophie in Canada said:


> Pat and Mike planed another overnight trip to Whistler, this time with her boyfriend and another couple. I was ok with this trip as her boyfriend will be there. But her boyfriend decided not to go. Mike insisted to go.


What concerns me the most ... is NOT the presence or absence of Pat's BF .... or even the presence of_ Pat herself._
What's concerning, is the *lack of* _respect_ and _consideration_ that Mike has towards YOU.

There can be 100 Pats, with or without their BFs ...who cares???
Even if her BF came that night, it* wouldn't change the fact* that *Mike prefers to spend time with Pat* rather than with YOU. This is the core problem!!

It doesn't matter if Mike or Pat haven't' had any intimate moment together...because the conditions didn't allow it but ..if there are feelings involved, then it's just a matter of time before they do anything and no matter how hard you try now, it won't fix the core issue that Mike might not feel so strongly about you (as he should - under normal circumstances).

So, before you even have further debates with Mike about Pat, focus on _his indifference towards your feelings_, don't focus on Pat or any ther girl out there - simply focus on asking yourself do you want to be with someone who feels so inconsiderately about you??? 

You can't be Mike's "police" for your whole life. He can go and f*ck with Pat or even kill himself, the problem is ....what YOU wanna do??? Are you okay with being the 2nd??? And not even compared to Pat but also compared to his needs and selfish desires. Will you take control of your own happiness with or without Mike in your life??

The moment this whole issue is up for discussion with 3rd parties, it means Mike (and his feelings about you) is the real problem .... not Pat, not skiing, not Pat's girl-friends or BF... but Mike and how he feels about you!


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> I am not asking to go alone with Pat overnight… Just to go if the circumstances are reasonable, and I am only trying to set out the boundaries clearly before next season. I feel that my request to change the conditions of Pat’s boyfriend present to some *other people present* is not unreasonable.


This is key. And honestly, I do not remember this coming up in any previous posts. If so point me to the post for better review.

That said, this should be sufficient, especially if everyone is in the same room together, or at the least, both you and Pat are separate with other roommates. Then it can't be said that you are the one with the room for themselves only is taking the other there.

Is this an issue with Pat only, or with females in general?




> I love Sophie. I am not trying to make her unhappy with reckless decisions. *But I have a life too.*


Warning! There will be those here who will tell you otherwise. That you and Sophie gave up on individual lives by marrying and now only have a life together. I disagree. You should have your own life, Sophie her's, and the two of you a life together. But you do need a balance between them (with no intended implication that there wasn't).


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Sophie in Canada said:


> Mike explained that he never contacted Will directly but he assumed Will was going. According to Mike, Pat was clear that her boyfriend is not going but *she was not clear if Will was going (Pat knew Will was not going as he was outside the country.
> *



This makes it sound as though Pat was deliberately omitting information.

The crux, Mike, is Sophia doesn't like your girlfriend and she doesn't trust you with her. So, ditch the girlfriend. It isn't abnormal for a wife to expect her husband not to date.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> This makes it sound as though Pat was deliberately omitting information.
> 
> The crux, Mike, is Sophia doesn't like your girlfriend and she doesn't trust you with her. So, ditch the girlfriend. It isn't abnormal for a wife to expect her husband not to date.


I know lot's of folks will think I am insane and I am kind of joking for them IRL, but I think Mike has blown it with Sofie and she should end the marriage. 

In real life, if my Fiancé asked me something like this, I might dump her. I mean, how stupid would I have to be to allow her to date another man while we are together. 

I really have a hard time believing that Sofie is staying with someone that is so selfish and full of hisself...


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

So MIke went on a ski trip with Pat and two other women? No I would not be ok. I think Mike has if nothing else some ego kibbles going on here. And I'm sorry Mike but you are way too invested into Pat.

And Mike we don't dislike you we just disagree with you.

I think it should be noted both Married but happy and Muquiscat are ok with being married and sleeping with others. It doesn't change that they have valid opinions but it might change how you view those.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> I love Sophie. I am not trying to make her unhappy with reckless decisions. But I have a life too.



If you love Sophie then this would be a no-brainer. Respect Sophie's reasonable request. I have a life too....that is by and large with my W. We do much together. We sometimes do things separately. I go to car shows. It is my hobby. My W is not a fan but will go if the weather is right. However, I certainly would not pick up a female friend and drive to a show spending the day with her if my W can not go. It is out of respect and knowing this would not fly with my W.

Think about this, Sophie has a male friend(who has a girlfriend/wife). Sophie likes the beach just as her male friend does. You are not a big fan of the beach. Sometimes you can go. Other times you can't go. The same for Sophie's male friend when and if his significant other can go. Sophie would still like to go to the beach with her male friend even if you can't go. She would like to go even if her male friends significant other can't attend. There are times when it will be overnight. But no worries, separate rooms. It will be an enjoyable time frolicking in the waves for Sophie as her male friend enjoys frolicking in the waves as well. But it is all good because Sophie's male friend is just a friend. Right?

Read, "Not Just Friends". It may provide an idea why the upset for Sophie and ski trips with another woman that is making a divide.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Hmmm ... my WW has had a girlfriend (both originally from Argentina) for about 20 yrs. About 18 years ago this girlfriend asked my wife and I to help her cover up a PA. She had the audacity to invite us to a dinner with her BH to solidify this cover up. Since the PA I have maintained this girlfriend is a POS. I do not trust her, nor my WW while she is with her. My WW has asked if I am OK with her taking trips with the girlfriend. I am not here to tell my WW what to do, but I am transparent enough to let her know where she can find her belongings upon her return from a trip with this girlfriend. Choose wisely Mike... Kindest Regards-


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> I think it should be noted both Married but happy and Muquiscat *are ok with being married and sleeping with others.* It doesn't change that they have valid opinions but it might change how you view those.


I would request to note that we are open or poly. When you put it that way, there is an implication, however unintended, that we go behind backs.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

maquiscat said:


> I would request to note that we are open or poly. When you put it that way, there is an implication, however unintended, that we go behind backs.


I apologize. I in no way meant to imply behind each others backs. I more meant that you would be more open to allowing trips with opposite sexes (fully knowing). I have always respected your input especially those seeking the open or poly life. But if a couple isn't looking for that they might take the advice given in perspective.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> I apologize. I in no way meant to imply behind each others backs. I more meant that you would be more open to allowing trips with opposite sexes (fully knowing). I have always respected your input especially those seeking the open or poly life. But if a couple isn't looking for that they might take the advice given in perspective.


I didn't think you did, hence the word unintentional. I was just pointing out how others might not see it the same. Lord knows that I have done the same and been corrected.

But since you said this:


> I more meant that you would be more open to allowing trips with opposite sexes (fully knowing).


For the sake of others, I would point out there are plenty of monogamous couples who would not have issues with such trips, either. Again not directed at you, Anastasia, but the line made me think of it.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Absolutely but less likely.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Mike, marriage obviously involves compromise. Sometimes a lot of compromise. Very often people don’t really want to make those compromises — they don’t seem fair — but they do so for the sake of the marriage. You appear to be under the impression that you can do as you please. But that’s not how marriage works. Many women would have already dumped you but your wife hasn’t — yet. So you need to decide whether it’s more important that you have a happy marriage or that you get to do exactly as you want. You may be more suited for the single life where there’s not a spouse to end up hurt by your actions.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

heartsbeating said:


> And for context with my response, the beautiful thing about a relationship is figuring it out as you go along, and navigating the scenarios together.
> 
> A while back, there was a group from my work that would sometimes hang out. One guy was into music and would invite Batman and I to gigs from time to time. We were meant to attend a gig with him and his new girlfriend. Batman came down with the flu and couldn't make it, but was okay for me to still go. The guy picked me up; I thought we were then heading to pick up his girlfriend, but turns out she couldn't make it either. I didn't know this beforehand. We enjoyed the gig, he dropped me back home. Nothing untoward. Batman isn't typically the jealous kind, but was a bit funky that it had just been the two of us; suggested he fancied me. I called nonsense.
> 
> Fast-forward a bit in time, didn't have regular contact with that crowd then, when guy reaches out to me that he's got group tickets to Stone Temple Pilots. Batman isn't a fan but was up for going. Great! Afterwards, Batman reiterated he felt this guy fancied me. Being a royal d*ck-head that I can be sometimes, or back then at least, I said nah, he's more like an annoying brother. Months go by, he invites us to a comedy gig; again as a group. Met his girlfriend this time. First thing she said upon meeting us, was how he talks about me and she was glad to finally meet. Batman gave me the raised eyebrow. The eyebrow speaks volumes ha ha. And after that night, we didn't seem him again. That was years ago, but reflecting back, it's irrelevant whether the guy felt more of a connection than I did, or not; it caused Batman to raise his eyebrow... and that's not cool to feel that within our social group as a couple.


Ah, so you 2 ended up having a date. 
I know....because you didn't "feel" anything for him you will say it wasn't a date...buy yeah, you ended up going on a date with someone else. 
It sounds like there were no ill affects....this is how loose boundaries can start off innocent but can sometimes lead to big problems with too much alone time with the opposite sex. 
It sounds like the riff was tiny and wasn't an issue BUT your time with the opposite sex did cause a tiny little crack in the trust between you and caused him a little bit of unease.
Some have hardly any boundaries....go do whatever you want with any opposite sex person.....almost anything, cuddling, trips together, dinners, foot rubs, clubbing together.....name anything under the sun. 
They say they "trust" them and that as long as no sex happens then all is just fine. 
Too much quality time, shared, private experiences, sharing of feelings and emotions, attention, affection with other opposite sex parties, even if nothing blatant ever happens can damage relationships and put cracks in the bond between 2, the trust that happen good boundaries would prevent. 

So many stories end up going to hell by hanging out with the opposite sex without their mate and then of course everyone starts drinking and getting tipsy and hanging out late....before you know it....break up.

Healthy boundaries are to protect the relationship, intimacy and bond....not to cater to one parties selfish wants at the risk of hurting the other.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Sophie in Canada said:


> First of all, thank you all for your time and comments. I am not posting as many as I wish since I am working but I really appreciate your input. To answer someone's question, we are together 20 years and married for 9 years.
> 
> I would like to add more to the original incident after I read Mike's writing about the unfairness he is getting from me in his last posting.
> 
> ...


So...Mike went overnight alone.....three 3 women? 
Damn Mike.
Sophie....you are patient, I'd be leaning towards, you won't have a spouse when you get home if my wife decided to go have a fun overnight trip with three guys. 

From the way you describe it....this Pat person sounds like she is harmful to your marriage. 
Who gives a crap if she is Mike's "friend", she may need to go and be a no contact quantity going forward. 
If he wants a healthy marriage, Pat may need the boot from both of your lives. 
Why aren't you on these trips?
Go already and quit skipping them.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

maquiscat said:


> I would request to note that we are open or poly. When you put it that way, there is an implication, however unintended, that we go behind backs.


He didn't state that so this assumption is made by you not that poster.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> I apologize. I in no way meant to imply behind each others backs. I more meant that you would be more open to allowing trips with opposite sexes (fully knowing). I have always respected your input especially those seeking the open or poly life. But if a couple isn't looking for that they might take the advice given in perspective.


You didn't imply. You are not responsible if others ADD additional wordings or implications you did not say. 
Let him infer whatever he wants....unless you said that then that's on him. 
Apologize if you are WRONG do not apologize to this mass movement of everyone being offended by every little thing. 
You did nothing wrong.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

hinterdir said:


> He didn't state that so this assumption is made by you not that poster.





hinterdir said:


> You didn't imply. You are not responsible if others ADD additional wordings or implications you did not say.
> Let him infer whatever he wants....unless you said that then that's on him.
> Apologize if you are WRONG do not apologize to this mass movement of everyone being offended by every little thing.
> You did nothing wrong.


Speaking of being offended by every little thing....looked in a mirror lately?

Anastasia and I knew where each other stood already. I knew she wasn't being offensive, and she knew what I am and accepts it. I pointed out that the _way _she said something _could _be read incorrectly by others, and she saw that once pointed out. You are correct that she had no need to apologize and I indicated that to her quite clearly. Her point that others should realize the perspective Married and myself are coming from is quite valid and I didn't deny it or say otherwise. All that happened was that I pointed out how the specific wording could be taken as other than intended.

And then you happened....


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

@Sophie in Canada , after reading your latest post, I strongly advise you and Mike both, to step back from the friendship with Pat. While the bigger issue is Mike's lack of insight into why this whole thing is an issue, Pat is still a big problem, and she does NOT have any respect for you or your marriage. After reading, I don't trust Pat and I've never met her!

@Sophie's husband Mike you need to really dig down and realise that you're putting a TWENTY YEAR, two decade, relationship in jeopardy. No "friendship" is worth that. Sophie is not being controlling at all, she is trying to protect your marriage.

No way in hades would I stand by if my husband went away with a group of women. I wouldn't tell him not to go, I'm not his mother, but I sure as hell wouldn't be here when he returned. Thing is though, that would never happen - he would never, in a million years think that was even remotely appropriate.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

hinterdir said:


> Ah, so you 2 ended up having a date.
> I know....because you didn't "feel" anything for him you will say it wasn't a date...buy yeah, you ended up going on a date with someone else.
> It sounds like there were no ill affects....this is how loose boundaries can start off innocent but can sometimes lead to big problems with too much alone time with the opposite sex.
> It sounds like the riff was tiny and wasn't an issue BUT your time with the opposite sex did cause a tiny little crack in the trust between you and caused him a little bit of unease.


I thought his girl was going to be there. It wasn’t much of a deal, but yes, some unease caused. Which is my point to Mike... we all go through these life lessons. Where possible, avoid being a d*ckhead to your spouse.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

hinterdir said:


> Healthy boundaries are to protect the relationship, intimacy and bond....not to cater to one parties selfish wants at the risk of hurting the other.


Absolutely agree.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm really amazed at how some married people will view friendships as more important than the relationship that they have with their spouse.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I'm really amazed at how some married people will view friendships as more important than the relationship that they have with their spouse.


This is even worse. His passion for snowboarding itself is supposed to over-ride whatever concerns his wife might rightfully have. No, worse even than that. It's a *shared* passion with another woman. Passion is a very strong thing, with long tentacles that work to enslave the entire brain. Rational thought becomes less important than emotion.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

NextTimeAround said:


> I'm really amazed at how some married people will view friendships as more important than the relationship that they have with their spouse.


I think the more important question is whether the friendship is any real threat to the marriage or not. 

Whistling is far less important to me than my marriage, but if my spouse forbade me to whistle when she wasn't around I sure as hell wouldn't comply.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Affaircare said:


> Here is my definition of infidelity: "Giving anything other than 100% of your affection, loyalty and companionship to anyone other than your spouse." (This applies to adult, opposite sex people--not children, grandchildren or parents/siblings.) 100% means there is 0% available to anyone else, period.


If that works for you, go for it. I would note that companionship is not money, in that it doesn't get used up in any predictable manner. That is, leaving the room when my buddy's wife talks doesn't mean I'll be more interested in what my spouse has to say.


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## Sophie's husband Mike (Jun 24, 2020)

There seems to be a theme that everybody is assuming that I am trying to develop a strong friendship with Pat at the expense of Sophie’s feelings. The fact that I crossed a boundary in the past has I feel, leaned opinions on this issue. Please understand, I agree that boundaries are needed and happily signed an agreement in order to save my marriage but it is wrong that Pat has become a focal point. I do not spend time nor am I trying to develop a relationship that includes time alone with Pat. I am happy to limit time to occasions with groups of friends.

I am sure many think I am just being selfish putting a useless activity ahead of my marriage, but my problem is that I don’t agree that I was deceitful about going alone with Pat. I knew a few days ahead that someone wasn’t going to be present but there were a couple of other people considering going. When it was obvious the night before the trip that it was just going to Pat and I, I told Sophie, and the overnight was cancelled.

The issue is not that I want to spend time with Pat, it’s that I don’t want to be excluded from the group if Pat’s boyfriend decides not to go. This is the only reason I am fighting my case. Ideally, Sophie would come too.

My only request is a policy change from Pat’s boyfriend present to a group present. I have also told Sophie that if something really bothers her and is making her unhappy, then I will not do it. Period.

This way I can meet the conditions of our marriage agreement and not have resentment for an arbitrary restriction. If we could assume for just a moment that I am not interested in Pat then is my policy change request reasonable?

One post is a particular example of the assumptions made where the person accuses me of having no respect and consideration for Sophie and that somehow they magically know who I am and how I feel. So please do not tell me that I would rather spend time with Pat and that I treat Sophie 2nd best. This is not true and an unfair statement. Another post talks about dating Pat and then suggests ending the marriage…A pretty harsh assessment based on a few pieces of information. There was never any dating. The only event alone was really a failed attempt to have a larger group. Not one person has actually talked about what my real argument is… changing the restriction… If I missed it, then I apologize.

The truth is my favorite person to be with anytime is my wife. I appreciate her attitude and enthusiasm and always enjoy any activity with her. If we can resolve this issue with clarity, my actions will demonstrate my loyalty and love.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> If we could assume for just a moment that I am not interested in Pat then is my policy change request reasonable?


No, I would not allow that assumption, because, IMO, you haven't demonstrated a lack of interest in Pat.

Again, IMO, your denials of interest in Pat fall flat.

My wife is a high school teacher. After a few years of teaching, she'd heard EVERY excuse in the book for late work, missed assignments, denials of copying/cheating, etc.

Yet, every year, new students to the school try to pass off the same old excuses as if they just thought them up and were clever and original! 

Unless you want a marriage full of tension and trouble, be brutally honest with yourself, instead of trying to win on a technicality.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> The issue is not that I want to spend time with Pat, it’s that I don’t want to be excluded from the group if Pat’s boyfriend decides not to go. This is the only reason I am fighting my case. Ideally, Sophie would come too.
> 
> My *only request i*s a policy change from Pat’s boyfriend present to a group present. *I have also told Sophie that if something really bothers her and is making her unhappy, then I will not do it. Period.*
> 
> ...


IMO: Sophie has said this really bothers her. You have said that if something really bothers her you will not do it. Thus, you will not do it. (You have agreed, but want to change the agreement and Sophie does not.) Therefore, clearly the agreement will not be changed. If you choose to have resentment for what is not an arbitrary restriction to Sophie, that is your choice.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> My only request is a *policy change from Pat’s boyfriend present to a group present.* I have also told Sophie that if something really bothers her and is making her unhappy, then I will not do it. Period.


I actually did suggest that to Sophie, but she's not responded yet. 

I said in my case, I would be ok with my husband going with a group of people, as long as he didn't have long sessions at the bar/lounge with a woman. But that's me, Sophie may feel differently.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Beware of winning the argument, but losing the war.


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## Sophie in Canada (Jun 22, 2020)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> I have also told Sophie that if something really bothers her and is making her unhappy, then I will not do it. Period.


Yes, you told me but why now? it was as clear as I even regret to lose my cool, twice before you went on the trips with pat.




Sophie's husband Mike said:


> Not one person has actually talked about what my real argument is… changing the restriction… If I missed it, then I apologize.


Mike, because a lot of people here and my real argument is what is lacking in our marriage or if our marriage is worth saving, not if I can change the restriction so you can go ski trip with Pat.

and my answer to my argument is becoming clear.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Sophie in Canada said:


> Mike, because a lot of people here and my real argument is what is lacking in our marriage or if our marriage is worth saving, not if I can change the restriction so you can go ski trip with Pat.
> 
> and my answer to my argument is becoming clear.


I don't think this is really the correct venue for any sort of final judgment on this. Each of you will find ways to win your argument with a subset of the audience here. That doesn't help your relationship. There are some serious boundary issues here that require professional help. The best we can do here is to encourage the two of you to seek that.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> I am sure many think I am just being selfish putting a useless activity ahead of my marriage, but my problem is that I don’t agree that I was deceitful about going alone with Pat.
> ...
> My only request is a policy change from Pat’s boyfriend present to a group present. I have also told Sophie that if something really bothers her and is making her unhappy, then I will not do it. Period.
> 
> ...


The problem is not a useless activity. The problem is an obvious passion, a passion that is shared with Pat, who happens to be a woman. The rational part of you may not/is not/knows it's a good idea not to be interested in Pat. But when you have an obvious passion for something as strong as you doing skiing/snowboarding, the rational mind may fail you. This is why we have boundaries. Sometimes are best intentions are not good enough.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

No guys and Mike...

Dude, get a grip. You say the discussion is one thing when you know it is another.

The PROBLEM is the your wife does not want you dating another woman, and you are too arrogant or too stupid to see that.

You are just a real peach. No one is actually that stupid, so you must just think everyone else is stupid. Do you think you are just so much smarter than everyone else is the world?

Your wife does not want you going on a trip with another woman, and you don't understand why?

Sofie, I am sorry. He is not going to change into a different person, and I think he is way up on the Narc scale.

You really need to think about ending the marriage. It is only going to get worst.

You can see that he is acting stupid with his last post. So arrogant, so narcissistic. This stuff is not going to change.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> I have also told Sophie that if something really bothers her and is making her unhappy, then I will not do it. Period.


Sophie has made it crystal clear that Pat is involved in your marriage in an unhealthy way. There has been no nuance or hinting from Sophie--there is no mistaking where she stands on this. Yet you continue to fight for your cause. And I know what you are requesting--there has been no confusion for me from the very beginning. You, sir, are walking a very fine line.

Her boundary of Pat's boyfriend having to be at any of these events is a good one. Why? Because you were inappropriate with one of Sophie's friends in the past. Your inclination is there. And you should be doing everything you can to earn Sophie's trust because of your past inappropriate action. I'm not sure if our cultures are different, but signing a piece of paper with an agreement would mean absolutely nothing to me. Actions earn trust, not words. And you seemingly wanting to die on this hill is the antithesis of what you claim in your quote I included in this post. But everyone is different and I can respect that both of you did that written agreement for your marriage.

I'm not saying this specifically to your situation, but generally. Friends can cover for friends. They can lie and back them up if something inappropriate happens with someone other than their spouse or bf/gf. Friends also retire to their separate quarters for the evening, unaware of what may happen after they leave.

So Sophie is wise to put that boundary in place because Pat's bf obviously would be by her side during these trips. Sophie is a very smart woman. You are now reaping the consequences for your inappropriate behavior toward Sophie's friend. Suck it up, buttercup.

I urge you to drop this issue like a hot potato.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

This is why one needs to join clubs. It creates a context in which adults can interact with other adults in a safe way.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

NextTimeAround said:


> This is why one needs to join clubs. It creates a context in which adults can interact with other adults in a safe way.


I don't have a problem w/ clubs, but I also don't see how the people I meet there are "safer" than the people I meet other ways.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> I do not spend time nor am I trying to develop a relationship that includes time alone with Pat. I am happy to limit time to occasions with groups of friends.


Perhaps you missed this post by your wife:



Sophie in Canada said:


> *I recently found out that Mike and Pat were texting each other about Whistler season pass and she also bought a season pass. My heart sank *thinking about what I may have to put up with again. I asked Mike if he is planning to go with Pat. He denied when I asked him but now it is obvious that he is hoping to go with Pat (and her friends)


If you were a smart man, you would find some new friends who enjoy your activity.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

It's not that the people would be necessarily safer. You still need good boundaries. It's that one's interaction with another can begin and end with the club / club activities and that would be acceptable for most people. And if someone doesn't get that ..... then it's obvious.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Mike, here is my $0.02. 
Look we know you love to snowboard. No issue there. You SAY you love your wife. HER boundaries are that you don't do this activity by yourself with other women, specifically Pat.
Why can' you respect her boundaries? The thing about Pat's BF is Sophie TRYING to give you the freedom to enjoy what you want, but in a way that SHE can feel safe.

It's pretty clear. Go snowboarding by yourself, or with other guys. DO NOT go with Pat unless a)Sophie is there, or b)Pat's BF is there. It gives Sophie that level of safety that SHE requires for her boundary.

So, do you love snowboarding with Pat more than your wife? IF NO, then you have a pretty clear path -- no snowboarding with Pat. I would go as far to say that even IF her BF is there, YOU should love your wife enough to just NOT be there with Pat unless Sophie is there.

Sophie, YOU need to be able to be there even if Pat is there -- YOU are Mike's wife -- stake out your boundaries here. Don't let "Pat being disrepectful" stop you from doing that.


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## nypsychnurse (Jan 13, 2019)

No Safety=No Trust
No Trust=A marriage that will not survive...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Sophie's husband Mike said:


> There seems to be a theme that everybody is assuming that I am trying to develop a strong friendship with Pat at the expense of Sophie’s feelings. The fact that I crossed a boundary in the past has I feel, leaned opinions on this issue. Please understand, I agree that boundaries are needed and happily signed an agreement in order to save my marriage but it is wrong that Pat has become a focal point. I do not spend time nor am I trying to develop a relationship that includes time alone with Pat. I am happy to limit time to occasions with groups of friends.
> 
> I am sure many think I am just being selfish putting a useless activity ahead of my marriage, but my problem is that I don’t agree that I was deceitful about going alone with Pat. I knew a few days ahead that someone wasn’t going to be present but there were a couple of other people considering going. When it was obvious the night before the trip that it was just going to Pat and I, I told Sophie, and the overnight was cancelled.
> 
> ...


Sophie shouldn’t have to tell you a overnight with another woman is not going to happen. It doesn’t matter who she is.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Do you seriously not know any men you could ski with?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

For me and my partner, being alone with the opposite sex constitutes a breach of a very firm boundary. We would end it over that.

Just no. If you want to be alone with the opposite sex be single or find someone else with looser boundaries.


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## Sophie in Canada (Jun 22, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> Sophie, YOU need to be able to be there even if Pat is there


Thanks for your encouragement but I do not wish to join Pat for snowboarding. Life is short, I want to be with people I like especially for the activities to have fun. Mike does not like the fact I do not like Pat now but he should know that it was him who created the situation that I believe Pat has no respect towards me.


Now Mike apologized for what he did and saying that he will not do any snowboard activity with Pat to save our marriage. It may save our marriage from this particular issue but it does not make me happy after seeing this much of his resistance and lack of compassion. I will end this marriage if he will have resentment towards me when he misses his opportunity to snowboard with Pat and her friends in the future because I cannot validate his resentment. We will see when the winter comes… I hope we do not have Season 2 here for our drama...He did apologized but I gave up for Mike to have compassion for me on this issue. This series of events is taking a toll on our marriage. There is no immediate way to fix the damage but we will have to figure out over time.
He mistreated me this time for sure but he is normally a nice guy. Yes he can be very selfish and was very stubborn on this issue but he is not narcissistic as someone said. I am not proud of him for how he handled the situation and also how he expressed himself in this forum but I should be the defender for him as his wife.
I really appreciate all of your input, thank you.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

No way would my husband go skiing alone with another woman (I don't care who cancels)! And I wouldn't be either. Very disrespectful to the wife, crossing unnecessary boundaries. Who was originally friends with Pat first? Doesn't sound like Pat has boundaries either and seems like she doesn't respect Sophie all that much.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

Sophie in Canada said:


> Thanks for your encouragement but I do not wish to join Pat for snowboarding. Life is short, I want to be with people I like especially for the activities to have fun. Mike does not like the fact I do not like Pat now but he should know that it was him who created the situation that I believe Pat has no respect towards me.
> 
> 
> Now Mike apologized for what he did and saying that he will not do any snowboard activity with Pat to save our marriage. It may save our marriage from this particular issue but it does not make me happy after seeing this much of his resistance and lack of compassion. I will end this marriage if he will have resentment towards me when he misses his opportunity to snowboard with Pat and her friends in the future because I cannot validate his resentment. We will see when the winter comes… I hope we do not have Season 2 here for our drama...He did apologized but I gave up for Mike to have compassion for me on this issue. This series of events is taking a toll on our marriage. There is no immediate way to fix the damage but we will have to figure out over time.
> ...


Good points! Time will tell if he will be resentful or not.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Sophie in Canada said:


> Thanks for your encouragement but I do not wish to join Pat for snowboarding. Life is short, I want to be with people I like especially for the activities to have fun. Mike does not like the fact I do not like Pat now but he should know that it was him who created the situation that I believe Pat has no respect towards me.
> 
> Now Mike apologized for what he did and saying that he will not do any snowboard activity with Pat to save our marriage. It may save our marriage from this particular issue but it does not make me happy after seeing this much of his resistance and lack of compassion. I will end this marriage if he will have resentment towards me when he misses his opportunity to snowboard with Pat and her friends in the future because I cannot validate his resentment. We will see when the winter comes… I hope we do not have Season 2 here for our drama...He did apologized but I gave up for Mike to have compassion for me on this issue. This series of events is taking a toll on our marriage. There is no immediate way to fix the damage but we will have to figure out over time.
> He mistreated me this time for sure but he is normally a nice guy. Yes he can be very selfish and was very stubborn on this issue but he is not narcissistic as someone said. I am not proud of him for how he handled the situation and also how he expressed himself in this forum but I should be the defender for him as his wife.
> I really appreciate all of your input, thank you.


Sofie, the problems is not his lack of compassion, it is he disrespect for and your marriage. 

Maybe he is just that arrogant which does not bode well for your marriage. Maybe he is emotionally stunted or just completely immature. 

I think Mike want to bang Pat and he thought you were too stupid or weak to call him on it. 

Good luck...


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Sophie in Canada said:


> Thanks for your encouragement but I do not wish to join Pat for snowboarding. Life is short, I want to be with people I like especially for the activities to have fun. Mike does not like the fact I do not like Pat now but he should know that it was him who created the situation that I believe Pat has no respect towards me.
> 
> 
> Now Mike apologized for what he did and saying that he will not do any snowboard activity with Pat to save our marriage. It may save our marriage from this particular issue but it does not make me happy after seeing this much of his resistance and lack of compassion. I will end this marriage if he will have resentment towards me when he misses his opportunity to snowboard with Pat and her friends in the future because I cannot validate his resentment. We will see when the winter comes… I hope we do not have Season 2 here for our drama...He did apologized but I gave up for Mike to have compassion for me on this issue. This series of events is taking a toll on our marriage. There is no immediate way to fix the damage but we will have to figure out over time.
> ...



The resentment will fade as soon as Mike finds others(male) in the sport of snowboarding he may enjoy the day with.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Yeswecan said:


> The resentment will fade as soon as Mike finds others(male) in the sport of snowboarding he may enjoy the day with.


I have never known a woman to think this way, ever, and I have known a few. 

Maybe you are right, but I have just never seen it. 

I think Mike started the beginning of the end his marriage with his crap....


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> I have never known a woman to think this way, ever, and I have known a few.
> 
> Maybe you are right, but I have just never seen it.
> 
> I think Mike started the beginning of the end his marriage with his crap....


 I have had resentment for one thing my W had issue. It was not a woman, etc. It involved early Saturday morning activity restoring a WW2 ship. I resented she asked me to stop and stay home with her early Saturday mornings. I got over it eventually. Turns out I do not really miss it at all.


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## UndecidedinNY (Jul 11, 2013)

Mike should not have any friendships that hurt his marriage. Mike is lying about assuming Pat's boyfriend was going. If wife couldn't go on the trip because she had to work, Mike should have rescheduled for a date that his wife could come too, because it's more important he go with his wife than Pat. Mike thinking others might come but not sure is Mike trying to spend a trip alone with Pat. 
"Mike does not want to give up opportunities to go skiing with Pat in the future."

because Mike wants to hook up with Pat.. this is proof. A man NEVER gets into angry fights with his wife over a female unless he is attracted to that female. 

"Sophie does not wish to join them after this incident as she believes Pat does not have enough respect to her."

Sophie is 100% right. Pat wants to sleep with Sophie's husband. Pat is a skank. So is Mike.


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## NicoleCJ (Sep 25, 2016)

Sophie, let me give you some advice I hope you take from someone who has been there. I know exactly how you feel.
#1 - Pat is not your friend. If she knew you were uncomfortable with it and still intended to go that means she didn’t give a damn about your feelings or what you thought. If the reverse happened would you immediately, for the sake of your friendship, back out and likely apologize? Most normal people would knowing they were doing something to hurt a friend. That’s a boundary that should be respected always. Big red flag where she is concerned. Honestly, I’d get rid of her as fast as I can. At the very least, she is not supportive of your marriage. I guarantee you her friendship is not worth it. 
#2 - Mike needs some new boundaries ASAP or you will both find out the hard way that same sex friendships that exclude spouses or significant others is an extremely dangerous and slippery slope. Couple that with the fact that they share a passion is another risk factor. Does Mike find her attractive? If he does, even if he says he’s not romantically interested, as someone else said this is how emotional affairs start, which almost always leads to the physical. An emotional affair is just as destructive as a physical. Sometimes even more so because “feelings” and attachment become involved and once that happens it’s very hard to break it, stop it or make the involved spouse see reason. Don’t go there. Seriously, just don’t. 
#3 When the person of interest is a social friend that makes it even harder. Also makes it easier for them to get alone time. “Oh Mike is just going to pick me up and run me back home after I drop my car off for service since my BF is unavailable. That’s ok with you right?” Don’t let yourself be put in that position. That quick ride home leads to “Hey, I haven’t had lunch have you? Let’s stop and grab a bite real quick” Then the inevitable exchange of personal information begins.
#4 What is the state of a Pat’s relationship? Are they happy? Do you know? Does Mike? NEVER discuss the status of your marriage/relationship with a member of the opposite sex. EVER! I can say all this because this sounds like the position my husband put me in. The other woman was a very good friend of mine. We socialized a lot with her and her husband, loved her kids and they ours, I went on trips with her etc. The husband that I trusted with my life, and trusted to have female friends ended up in an emotional affair with my “friend” that had become physical. Kissing, holding her when she cried about her marriage, long hugs. They had so much light, easy fun together. So much in common. She fawned all over him and told him how wonderful he was. 🤮 They both said no sex occurred. That they were caught before it got there. Not sure I believe that, but there is some corroborating evidence through a 3rd party she confessed to who she didn’t know was a mutual friend. That friend told me what was going on. All this went on behind my back while I was pregnant. She even had the nerve to come visit in the hospital after the birth of my son. That is something I don’t know I will ever be able to forget or forgive. Don’t either one of you think it can’t happen. It has been devastating and may very well be the end of my marriage. I wish my pride would have allowed me to simply blow that “friendship” up when it started setting off my spidey senses, but I trusted two people who didn’t deserve it. Please, both of you, draw some hard boundaries now! Not because of trust issues, but because you respect each other. Then you never have confusion when situations like this come up. Makes life much simpler. 
And for Mike.... How would you feel if Sophie went on an overnight trip, or even day trips, against your wishes, to a lovely place for some fun, doing something with another man that they both had a passion for and could bond over. He is attractive and doesn’t care that it crossed your boundaries, he intended to go away with your wife anyways. Change your mind at all? If you still think it’s fine, consider if Pat is worth more to you than your marriage, because you both are crossing your wife’s boundaries and that leads to only bad conclusions. Honestly, Pat sounds like a husband poacher to me and you are either incredibly naive or you want to be poached. Trust me. It’s not worth it.


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## moon7 (May 5, 2013)

Sophie in Canada said:


> Please allow me to write the details of the incident as I believe it is necessary for you to have opinions. This is my version of the story. My husband, Mike will be posting his statement right after this posting. I am hoping that you read both sides of the story, ask us questions and share your thoughts on this incident and what is commonly acceptable for married couples.
> *
> Narrative (Sophie’s version)*
> Mike was planning to go skiing trip overnight to Whistler. He was hoping to go with many people. His wife, Sophie didn’t plan to go as she was working. He asked Pat who is the most active member of the people he goes skiing with on a regular basis. Mike has been expressing that Pat is his most favorite person for skiing activity as she is as passionate and good as he is. Sophie warned Mike if he crosses the line with Pat that would ruin our marriage and his friendship with her boyfriend.
> ...


He is up to no good, point. He soooo knew what he was going into and knows its not an acceptable thing, and knows those friends arent going.


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## moon7 (May 5, 2013)

Sophie in Canada said:


> Please allow me to write the details of the incident as I believe it is necessary for you to have opinions. This is my version of the story. My husband, Mike will be posting his statement right after this posting. I am hoping that you read both sides of the story, ask us questions and share your thoughts on this incident and what is commonly acceptable for married couples.
> *
> Narrative (Sophie’s version)*
> Mike was planning to go skiing trip overnight to Whistler. He was hoping to go with many people. His wife, Sophie didn’t plan to go as she was working. He asked Pat who is the most active member of the people he goes skiing with on a regular basis. Mike has been expressing that Pat is his most favorite person for skiing activity as she is as passionate and good as he is. Sophie warned Mike if he crosses the line with Pat that would ruin our marriage and his friendship with her boyfriend.
> ...


I have to say this man put "the feels" for his little friend over his wife.


Sophie's husband Mike said:


> *Sophie's husband Mike’s statement:*
> 
> As for the narrative, I agree. I also agree an overnight alone with the opposite sex would be inappropriate.
> 
> ...


Nah, dude. After what ive read i just wo


Sophie's husband Mike said:


> *Sophie's husband Mike’s statement:*
> 
> As for the narrative, I agree. I also agree an overnight alone with the opposite sex would be inappropriate.
> 
> ...


Ive seen many just like you and your suave excuses. I wouldnt trust you, and i would start asking questions about your other trips before.


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## moon7 (May 5, 2013)

Sophie in Canada said:


> Please allow me to write the details of the incident as I believe it is necessary for you to have opinions. This is my version of the story. My husband, Mike will be posting his statement right after this posting. I am hoping that you read both sides of the story, ask us questions and share your thoughts on this incident and what is commonly acceptable for married couples.
> *
> Narrative (Sophie’s version)*
> Mike was planning to go skiing trip overnight to Whistler. He was hoping to go with many people. His wife, Sophie didn’t plan to go as she was working. He asked Pat who is the most active member of the people he goes skiing with on a regular basis. Mike has been expressing that Pat is his most favorite person for skiing activity as she is as passionate and good as he is. Sophie warned Mike if he crosses the line with Pat that would ruin our marriage and his friendship with her boyfriend.
> ...


Sophie, tgis guy is choosing "the feels" over your well being. Later he will gaslight you calling you crazy
Been there, done that. People without boundaries try to manipulate our boundaries and everyone around. 

Pat is a b!t¢# up to no good (never trust her), but the one hurting you ON PURPOSE is your husband.


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## NicoleCJ (Sep 25, 2016)

moon7 said:


> Sophie, tgis guy is choosing "the feels" over your well being. Later he will gaslight you calling you crazy
> Been there, done that. People without boundaries try to manipulate our boundaries and everyone around.
> 
> Pat is a b!t¢# up to no good (never trust her), but the one hurting you ON PURPOSE is your husband.


^^ This is 100% spot on


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Mike, you've already crossed the line once that she knows of. And it was mature of you two to put rules in place. Now follow them. 

The whole waiting until the night before to know who's going is suspicious and can't blame anyone of being distrusting of that and all the machinations on Pat's end, boyfriend, no boyfriend, male friend, no male friend, and then SURPRISE, it's just you and her on a mountain. Yeah, no. 

Mike, all you have to do is reverse that scenario where Sophie is making these plans with a man to see why it's a no-go.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

@Sophie's husband Mike BTW here's a thread that might be helpful









How to stop trying to reconcile with wife (we are separated)


We were in a bad marriage for 15 years. Constant fighting constant insecurities. i admit i was a cause of a lot of the fights. She was not comfortable with me having women friends so i used to lie to her about hanging out with them. There was nothing but friendship. It got so bad that i...




www.talkaboutmarriage.com


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