# Can Cheating lead to a better marriage?



## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

If you are caught or admit to infidelity in a marriage, can that situation contribute to identifying the underlying problems and allow you to work on resolving them, ending up with a better marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Only if you believe that being married to someone who can't be straight with you to tell you what's wrong in the relationship and instead goes out to cheat behind your back, is somehow your fault. Many people cheat because they don't want to be married, not because their marriage is bad. Many people cheat because they don't want to lose what they have (home, kids, etc) and want their cake and to eat it, too. IOW, many people cheat and it has nothing to do with the marriage. Even if the marriage was horrible, why not just tell the person how unhappy you are, instead of cheating?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> Only if you believe that being married to someone who can't be straight with you to tell you what's wrong in the relationship and instead goes out to cheat behind your back, is somehow your fault. Many people cheat because they don't want to be married, not because their marriage is bad. Many people cheat because they don't want to lose what they have (home, kids, etc) and want their cake and to eat it, too. IOW, many people cheat and it has nothing to do with the marriage. Even if the marriage was horrible, why not just tell the person how unhappy you are, instead of cheating?


When I Read the story of B1 and EI it made me think about this.

Because their marriage did improve after the infidelity.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I would say it would depend on the BS and how willing they are to look past you $hitting on their marriage, family, etc...

I can see for some it would get all the issues hopefully out in the open to address, and that could potentially lead to a better marriage. I would think that would be the exception to the rule. I would rather just kick em out and get a dog lol.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> If you are caught or admit to infidelity in a marriage, can that situation contribute to identifying the underlying problems and allow you to work on resolving them, ending up with a better marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Absolutely it can. All one has to do is ditch the cheating "person" and have a better marriage with a person who actually has some character.

Anyone who thinks cheating can lead to a better marriage is delusional.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

I don't think so.
To me the issues that led to the infidelity might be dealt with after the person is caught but who is to say that the cheater doesn't have some other issues that cause them peril in the marriage and they react by cheating again.
I think that if you have cheated once you are more apt to cheat again. It's the cowards way out of running from problems instead confronting them head on.

I don't think it leads to a better marriage. Perhaps it leads to those underlying issues being fixed but that doesn't necessarily mean a better marriage . I think those that chose to stay (I am one of them) will never fully trust 100% the spouse. You are left with that scar and that to me that is not better. Different most definitely but not better.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@MAJDEATH which ap of your W triggered this amazing change in your marriage?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

My own experience? I thought the 30 years between DD1 and DD2 were better and that he would never cheat again. I was wrong. 

But there are obviously success stories on TAM so I would say the answer -- for a very few -- is "yes". I don't think in general that's true but it does happen (just not for me or anyone I know in real life).


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

If people are honest in the first instance then they won't need to cheat. 
But some are more honest after cheating because they have been caught & exposed. 
So it that context maybe it could lead to a better marriage. 
But it would be better just to be honest. 

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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> Only if you believe that being married to someone who can't be straight with you to tell you what's wrong in the relationship and instead goes out to cheat behind your back, is somehow your fault.




Not always the case. Sometimes they're told over and over and only the cheating made them understand how serious the issue was.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Not always the case. Sometimes they're told over and over and only the cheating made them understand how serious the issue was.


As was the case with B1 ans EI.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

drifter777 said:


> No


QFT


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

citygirl4344 said:


> I think those that chose to stay (I am one of them) *will never fully trust 100% the spouse.* You are left with that scar and that to me that is not better. *Different most definitely but not better.
> *


Yep, I'm a stay-er. 7+ years down the road, it still haunts, never forgotten. Better? Pffh.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Not always the case. Sometimes they're told over and over and only the cheating made them understand how serious the issue was.


Asking for a divorce is always an option. There's really no reason to end up in another person's bed because you can't face the problems in your relationship.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

There are a number of incidence where the marriage improved after the disclosure of an affair. If you look at these incidence it becomes evident that both partners put all the cards on the table and both want to salvage the marriage. Oftentimes one or the other's heart is not into it, and more often than not, its the WS.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Unicorn rainbow farts and Skittle bushes....

~ Passio


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

MAJDEATH said:


> If you are caught or admit to infidelity in a marriage, can that situation contribute to identifying the underlying problems and allow you to work on resolving them, ending up with a better marriage?]


 Some people say that cheating can lead to a better marriage, unfortunately most of those people have been cheaters try to rationalize their cheating. It appears to be part of the cheater's script.


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

MrsAldi said:


> If people are honest in the first instance then they won't need to cheat.
> But some are more honest after cheating because they have been caught & exposed.
> So it that context maybe it could lead to a better marriage.
> But it would be better just to be honest.
> ...




Some aren't more honest...some are monitored more by the spouse.



Sent from my iPhone


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

@*Deidre*
Cheating is an adrenalin rush. It can become an addiction. The cheater forgets why they cheated in the first place and become addicted to the high that cheating gives them.




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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

MAJDEATH said:


> If you are caught or admit to infidelity in a marriage, can that situation contribute to identifying the underlying problems and allow you to work on resolving them, ending up with a better marriage?


Yes


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Not always the case. Sometimes they're told over and over and only the cheating made them understand how serious the issue was.




So does this justify the cheating?


Sent from my iPhone


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

TRy said:


> Some people say that cheating can lead to a better marriage, unfortunately most of those people have been cheaters try to rationalize their cheating. It appears to be part of the cheater's script.


Maybe, unless the betrayed spouse is the one saying the marriage is better. OP, did not differentiate as to who was saying the marriage is better.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

citygirl4344 said:


> So does this justify the cheating?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


Why does it have to justify the cheating? Cause and effect does not need justification - just understanding. The problems contributed to the cheating. Post cheating, if the two can R, and if those contributing problems are removed, the marriage can be better.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I think most responders here are missing the obvious. Cheating can absolutely lead to a better marriage. But the marriage that it can improve must have been so awful, those two shouldn't ever have been married to begin with.

The better question is, "Can cheating improve a marriage that wasn't already in the ****ter?" The answer is oh hail no.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Herschel said:


> I think most responders here are missing the obvious. Cheating can absolutely lead to a better marriage. But the marriage that it can improve must have been so awful, those two shouldn't ever have been married to begin with.


Maybe. But the marriage could have been good but just deteriorated over the years until it got to be awful, but both just suffered through it until something radical changed the situation. 

Some posters are not speaking hypothetically.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Fair enough, but let's just say that, at the moment the cheating occurs, if it actually improves the marriage, then they should have been divorced already.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Herschel said:


> Fair enough, but let's just say that, at the moment the cheating occurs, if it actually improves the marriage, then they should have been divorced already.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry but I fail to follow the logic there?


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> If you are caught or admit to infidelity in a marriage, can that situation contribute to identifying the underlying problems and allow you to work on resolving them, ending up with a better marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It happens all the time. That said, it is like waiting to get into a car accident to evaluate one's driving skills.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

citygirl4344 said:


> @*Deidre*
> Cheating is an adrenalin rush. It can become an addiction. The cheater forgets why they cheated in the first place and become addicted to the high that cheating gives them.
> 
> 
> ...


Well for some it is but for others it isn't.

Take two people standing high on a bridge parapet.

The one with the parachute is a thrill seeking base jumper.

The one in the soiled and rumpled business suit is contemplating jumping not for an Adrenalin rush but to possibly end their life.

Same with some cheaters. Seeking a thrill or seeking something else maybe even release from their marriage.

I recall one person on TAM who said they wanted to divorce their husband didn't want one so she set her husband up to find her in bed with another man.

It worked. He divorced her but she was sad with how if had broken him. She hadn't counted on how upset it would leave him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> I'm sorry but I fail to follow the logic there?


Let's say a managable marriage is between 1-10. 1 being barely tolerable and 10 being the zenith. If the marriage is at 0, it can go either way and if the marriage is negative, then you are better off divorced. The original question asks, can cheating improve a marriage, like, bring it from 2 to 5. Or something like that. 

I am saying that cheating can never bring a marriage into a positive number. It can't make a 1 into a 3 or a -2 into a 2. All it could possibly do is take a bad marriage and make it slightly less bad due to possibly opening up communication and whatnot. Like from a -5 to a -2. The problem is, whatever it helped open up, it also detracted from the marriage in terms of lies and infidelity.

It's all in the numbers, really.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

blueinbr said:


> Maybe, unless the betrayed spouse is the one saying the marriage is better. OP, did not differentiate as to who was saying the marriage is better.


It does not really matter who says it. A large percentage of cheaters can manipulate the shell shocked betrayed spouse into believing just about anything, including that the betrayed spouse was to blame for the affair, and that the affair helped the marriage because it allowed the betrayed spouse to address the false never heard before issues of the cheater. A famous con man once said that you can get anyone to believe the unbelievable as long as they want to believe. Many betrayed spouses want to believe that they where to blame because then they can fix it and then everything will be better.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

I think often times the revelation of the A begins a new, much deeper dialogue between the couple, which often is started by the BS saying things like "you didn't think I was unhappy too, and that I didn't think about wanting to leave you and/or have an A, but I choose not to in order to not disrupt the family dynamic". But now the BS has an open floor to present their grievances that they were reluctant to mention before, because they have nothing to lose and everything to gain, if there is a chance to save the marriage and make it better (assuming the WS is remorseful, feels guilty, and apologizes for the hurt that was caused to the BS).

And don't forget about the hysterical bonding sex that occurs after Dday. For those trapped in a sexless marriage, this could be a catalyst for renewed desire.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Herschel said:


> Let's say a managable marriage is between 1-10. 1 being barely tolerable and 10 being the zenith. If the marriage is at 0, it can go either way and if the marriage is negative, then you are better off divorced. The original question asks, can cheating improve a marriage, like, bring it from 2 to 5. Or something like that.
> 
> I am saying that cheating can never bring a marriage into a positive number. It can't make a 1 into a 3 or a -2 into a 2. All it could possibly do is take a bad marriage and make it slightly less bad due to possibly opening up communication and whatnot. Like from a -5 to a -2. The problem is, whatever it helped open up, it also detracted from the marriage in terms of lies and infidelity.
> 
> ...


Believe it or not, happy couples cheat too. Does happy = manageable in your equation? I know some so-called "manageable" marriages where there has been no sex since the last child was born, years ago. And what brought the wife out of her funk was the realization that he would actually leave her for the OW that will earnestly give him the sexual closeness he desires.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

citygirl4344 said:


> So does this justify the cheating?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone




That wasn't the question. And that's not what I said.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Well for some it is but for others it isn't.
> 
> Take two people standing high on a bridge parapet.
> 
> ...


It sadly amazes me how many heartless people exist in the world, and how they'll marry someone, and then treat them like garbage. From cheating to head games to abuse, I've read threads on here, and it is no wonder why people are divorcing at rapid rates.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I could see how it might work. Its possible that knowing that your partner cheated makes it clear that they are desirable to other people and that they have the option of leaving. 

Threats of divorce don't do that, because they may not be believed. Actual divorce ends the relationship. 

Still, not saying I recommend it.


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Well for some it is but for others it isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Interesting
I hadn't heard that story. I still think most *not all* then tend to forget why they started in the first place because they have gotten caught up in the rush of it all.



Sent from my iPhone


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

WorkingOnMe said:


> That wasn't the question. And that's not what I said.




Yes. But that's the question I had from reading your comment that's all.


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Why does it have to justify the cheating? Cause and effect does not need justification - just understanding. The problems contributed to the cheating. Post cheating, if the two can R, and if those contributing problems are removed, the marriage can be better.




Those problems are resolved and removed yes. But that doesn't mean that the marriage is better. It just means those stressors have been removed. They could have been replaced by different issues for example. The marriage is most definitely different but not necessarily better. 


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> If you are caught or admit to infidelity in a marriage, can that situation contribute to identifying the underlying problems and allow you to work on resolving them, ending up with a better marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Hell to the "no!" At least in the vast majority of cases, that is!

If anything, to the BS with only an ounce of "common sense," it will only predicate ~ at best ~ the ability to grow a new set of eyes in the back of of their heads, as well as to begin to foster an unfathomable aura of blatant mistrust and resentment between what should be two normally, loving and trusting spouses!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Does it make the marriage better?

Maybe not. 

Maybe the marriage continues as good as it could be but better? Well, not so sure. It depends what you mean by better.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

TRy said:


> It does not really matter who says it. A large percentage of cheaters can manipulate the shell shocked betrayed spouse into believing just about anything, including that the betrayed spouse was to blame for the affair, and that the affair helped the marriage because it allowed the betrayed spouse to address the false never heard before issues of the cheater. A famous con man once said that you can get anyone to believe the unbelievable as long as they want to believe. Many betrayed spouses want to believe that they where to blame because then they can fix it and then everything will be better.




Most cheaters are ordinary people without special manipulation skills. And most betrayed are not gullible spineless persons just awaiting manipulation. Some betrayed are smart enough to understand and acknowledge how their actions contributed to the deterioration of the marriage. 

And just as you label some cheaters as manipulators, Some stubborn betrayed will wrap themselves in the victim flag and disavow their detrimental role in the marriage. Those are the ones that will divorce, or stay married but remain bitter forever. 

I am referring to a subset, not all betrayed.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> Most cheaters are ordinary people without special manipulation skills. And most betrayed are not gullible spineless persons just awaiting manipulation. Some betrayed are smart enough to understand and acknowledge how their actions contributed to the deterioration of the marriage.
> 
> And just as you label some cheaters as manipulators, Some stubborn betrayed will wrap themselves in the victim flag and disavow their detrimental role in the marriage. Those are the ones that will divorce, or stay married but remain bitter forever.
> 
> I am referring to a subset, not all betrayed.


And they think every BS should divorce their WS and show them no mercy or be branded a coward or worse...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I have no doubt that it is possible and sometimes happens. Either the WS realizes how good they have it and rededicates themselves to their marriage, or the couple reconciles and improves their marriage to eliminate some of the previous problems that created dissatisfaction.


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## thebirdman (Apr 5, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> If you are caught or admit to infidelity in a marriage, can that situation contribute to identifying the underlying problems and allow you to work on resolving them, ending up with a better marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Mine did, absolutely! I wish I had had the foresight or know how to tackle those problems before that though. It was like tearing my entire marriage apart and rebuilding it from the ground up, which it needed badly. Just to clarify though, it was the counseling and work that came after the infidelity that helped, not the infidelity itself. 
Am I glad I cheated? Not at all. Am I glad I was honest about it? Yes, even though it cost an expensive personal toll.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> I have no doubt that it is possible and sometimes happens. Either the WS realizes how good they have it and rededicates themselves to their marriage, or the couple reconciles and improves their marriage to eliminate some of the previous problems that created dissatisfaction.




It is not only the WS that can realize how good they have it. Infidelity is only one form of marriage betrayal and the BS could have betrayed the WS in different ways.


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## Cowboy2 (Nov 12, 2013)

Is it possible? Yes.

Is it likely or the norm? No.

I think in the right set of circumstances it can make the marriage better if BOTH are fully committed to it.

I think it's the exception to the rule.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Short answer "no" longer answer "better marriage to another person, yes"


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> Most cheaters are ordinary people without special manipulation skills. And most betrayed are not gullible spineless persons just awaiting manipulation. Some betrayed are smart enough to understand and acknowledge how their actions contributed to the deterioration of the marriage.
> 
> And just as you label some cheaters as manipulators, *Some stubborn betrayed will wrap themselves in the victim flag and disavow their detrimental role in the marriage*. Those are the ones that will divorce, or stay married but remain bitter forever.
> 
> I am referring to a subset, not all betrayed.


I have a problem with this part in bold. Yes, the BS absolutely is a "victim" of betrayal by their cheating spouse. And NO, they didn't "cause" the betrayal. The cheating spouse chose to do that on their own. If the betrayed spouse was so bad, why didn't they divorce and go find someone else?
I think Betrayed spouses should analyze where the screwed up in the marriage no matter the reason for divorce, so that they improve themselves as a person and hopefully have a better marriage with a more loyal spouse in the future.

But, for someone to say that the betrayed spouse is somehow flawed because they never fully heal and are "bitter"--- I don't think that is completely fair. I was betrayed by my spouse. I'm still angry about it, although I don't think about it constantly anymore--getting less and less. But I'm pretty sure I'll always be angry when I think about it, and I don't know that I'll ever be able to fully forgive not only her betrayal of me, but for her forced breakup of my family/kids and lifetime work on my home and things. 
I'll never be "happy" about it.
Pretty traumatic experience. And the WS couldn't care less in most cases. That's why I say divorce the cheater and put it behind you as best you can. I'd say it would be nearly impossible to put it behind you if you stay married to that person, knowing what they're capable of and having to wonder when it might happen again. And I agree with what I've heard that it's easier on one's conscience to let it happen the second time....


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## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Not always the case. Sometimes they're told over and over and only the cheating made them understand how serious the issue was.


I highly doubt this happens much, if at all.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Bongo said:


> I highly doubt this happens much, if at all.


The next step in human evolution will be telepathy. I'm convinced. 

That first guy who can read woman's minds is going to literally clean up.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

MAJDEATH said:


> I think often times the revelation of the A begins a new, much deeper dialogue between the couple, which often is started by the BS saying things like "you didn't think I was unhappy too, and that I didn't think about wanting to leave you and/or have an A, but I choose not to in order to not disrupt the family dynamic". But now the BS has an open floor to present their grievances that they were reluctant to mention before, because they have nothing to lose and everything to gain, if there is a chance to save the marriage and make it better (assuming the WS is remorseful, feels guilty, and apologizes for the hurt that was caused to the BS).


 Although the affair may give the betrayed spouse (BS) "an open floor to present their grievances that they were reluctant to mention before", those grievances pale by comparison to the long term deep hurt and lack of trust that the affair inflicts on the BS if they stay in the marriage. 



MAJDEATH said:


> And don't forget about the hysterical bonding sex that occurs after Dday. For those trapped in a sexless marriage, this could be a catalyst for renewed desire.


 The problem with hysterical bonding is that it is only short term, and causes resentment because it shows the BS what was possible had the cheater not denied them this for so many years.


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## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> It is not only the WS that can realize how good they have it. Infidelity is only one form of marriage betrayal and the BS could have betrayed the WS in different ways.


Well, even if you consider other deficiencies/breaches the equivalent of cheating ( and, IMO, almost nothing rises to that level other than physical or emotional abuse), you have to concede that cheating ,sinc it is done clandestinely, deprives the recipient of the ability to mitigate his or her losses by leaving. Other forms of what you call betrayals, generally, are open and obvious to the recipient and allow for mitigation of losses.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Can cheating lead to a better marriage?

The marriage may be improved because of the renewed efforts by both spouses, after the devastation.

But.....not as good a marriage as if those same efforts had been applied without a spouse cheating. The lingering memories will always be there - like the proverbial elephant in the room.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

badmemory said:


> Can cheating lead to a better marriage?


No, despite what some here "claim".

Self delusion is a powerful tool for some.

They pop blue pills like Flintstone vitamins.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Bongo said:


> Other forms of what you call betrayals, generally, are open and obvious to the recipient and allow for mitigation of losses.



Not in my household. 

What makes them betrayals is that they are damaging and done clandestinely.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

It can but that's a hell of a way to do it. Doesn't it make more sense to go to your spouse when you have issues or when you sense he/she does and try to work them out before an affair happens?


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> Believe it or not, happy couples cheat too. Does happy = manageable in your equation? I know some so-called "manageable" marriages where there has been no sex since the last child was born, years ago. And what brought the wife out of her funk was the realization that he would actually leave her for the OW that will earnestly give him the sexual closeness he desires.


I reject this assertion. If both man and wife are happy in the marriage then cheating is not possible. You cannot desire another person unless you think they are "better" than the one you are with and, by definition, that means you are NOT happy with your partner. You might not hate them but you sure as hell do not love them in any rational sense of the word.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

No
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Evinrude58 said:


> Anyone who thinks cheating can lead to a better marriage is delusional.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Including, apparently, those of us who have actually lived it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Not in my household.
> 
> What makes them betrayals is that they are damaging and done clandestinely.


Betrayal need not be clandestine. I can think of some ,other than cheating that are , though.
In general,I think most are known to the recipient,but not always.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Bongo said:


> I highly doubt this happens much, if at all.


I can assure you that it does.

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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Bongo said:


> Betrayal need not be clandestine. I can think of some ,other than cheating that are , though.
> 
> In general,I think most are known to the recipient,but not always.




Some follow the same pattern - the lying, hiding, emotional pain, deceit, flat out denial when proof is overwhelming - as infidelity. And infidelity is often known to the recipient too.


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## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I can assure you that it does.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Again,I doubt it.


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## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Some follow the same pattern - the lying, hiding, emotional pain, deceit, flat out denial when proof is overwhelming - as infidelity. And infidelity is often known to the recipient too.


Most of the time not
.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> If you are caught or admit to infidelity in a marriage, can that situation contribute to identifying the underlying problems and allow you to work on resolving them, ending up with a better marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, absolutely. However we must remember that "better" is a very subjective word. While I do believe that a marriage can be improved by experiences that initiate growth and cause character development, the marriage that needs the H and W to experience that much growth is really not very good to begin with. Therefore bettering that is really not a monumental achievement.

The marriage may indeed be better than it was but not nearly as good as it could have been had the H and/or W not needed so much improvement. Lessons that are learned are ofttimes very costly and the "better" marriage come at the sacrifice of the great one.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Evinrude58 said:


> I have a problem with this part in bold. Yes, the BS absolutely is a "victim" of betrayal by their cheating spouse. And NO, they didn't "cause" the betrayal. The cheating spouse chose to do that on their own. If the betrayed spouse was so bad, why didn't they divorce and go find someone else?
> I think Betrayed spouses should analyze where the screwed up in the marriage no matter the reason for divorce, so that they improve themselves as a person and hopefully have a better marriage with a more loyal spouse in the future.
> 
> But, for someone to say that the betrayed spouse is somehow flawed because they never fully heal and are "bitter"--- I don't think that is completely fair. I was betrayed by my spouse. I'm still angry about it, although I don't think about it constantly anymore--getting less and less. But I'm pretty sure I'll always be angry when I think about it, and I don't know that I'll ever be able to fully forgive not only her betrayal of me, but for her forced breakup of my family/kids and lifetime work on my home and things.
> ...


But there are some people who find out they are a victim of being cheated on and they get divorced.

But they remain locked in the "victim mentality" for ever after.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Bongo said:


> Again,I doubt it.




Why are you doubting TAMers who have experienced this.? Elegirl just posted in another thread that she knows couples who survived infidelity and have a stronger marriage. Cletus too.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

NoChoice said:


> Yes, absolutely. However we must remember that "better" is a very subjective word.



Yes that is true. But if the H and W think and know it is better, then it really does not matter how anyone else defines the word.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Bongo said:


> Most of the time not
> 
> .




Never said it was. I said often.

BTW which incarnation are you?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Bongo said:


> Again,I doubt it.


True, just like no one will ever need more than 640k of PC memory. Whadda ya gonna do?


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## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Never said it was. I said often.
> 
> BTW which incarnation are you?


Same old.Not banned. Just never got the help I requested to log back in after the password deal. So,had to go this route.


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## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Never said it was. I said often.
> 
> BTW which incarnation are you?


Often is a stretch ,IMO.


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## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

```

```



blueinbr said:


> Why are you doubting TAMers who have experienced this.? Elegirl just posted in another thread that she knows couples who survived infidelity and have a stronger marriage. Cletus too.[/QUOTE
> 
> I was referring to the allegation that many times,before resorting to cheating,the cheater had repeatedly let the BS know of his or her dissatisfaction in any meaningful way. I was not referring to any other assertions.]


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## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> But there are some people who find out they are a victim of being cheated on and they get divorced.
> 
> But they remain locked in the "victim mentality" for ever after.


Never heard of such a thing. That is a shame.


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## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Including, apparently, those of us who have actually lived it.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Got any bridges to sell?


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

drifter777 said:


> I reject this assertion. If both man and wife are happy in the marriage then cheating is not possible. You cannot desire another person unless you think they are "better" than the one you are with and, by definition, that means you are NOT happy with your partner. You might not hate them but you sure as hell do not love them in any rational sense of the word.


The AP doesn't have to be better, and often times are much worse than the spouses in many categories. I have seen this happen firsthand. The WS just wants to try something different, and they are willing to trade social status, looks, income level, etc. to get it.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

TRy said:


> Although the affair may give the betrayed spouse (BS) "an open floor to present their grievances that they were reluctant to mention before", those grievances pale by comparison to the long term deep hurt and lack of trust that the affair inflicts on the BS if they stay in the marriage.
> 
> The problem with hysterical bonding is that it is only short term, and causes resentment because it shows the BS what was possible had the cheater not denied them this for so many years.


I was referring to the BS as the party who refuses sex, not the WS. And then she wonders why would he cheat?


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

Bongo said:


> Got any bridges to sell?


Before you make an asinine comment, did you bother to read Cletus's
threads?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Bongo said:


> Got any bridges to sell?




Or live under?


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## heartbroken50 (Aug 9, 2016)

Is there no hope then? 
What if the WS was unhappy not due to the marriage being bad, but because of issues beyond either spouses control? Such as health or financial issues or the death of a child? What if they were looking for an escape from those stressors rather than an escape from their marriage?

And please be gentle... I'm living this right now and it's fresh.

Oh, and if anyone can point me to some hopeful threads I would greatly appreciate it.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Bongo said:


> Never heard of such a thing. That is a shame.




It's a shame you never heard such a thing?


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

heartbroken50 said:


> Is there no hope then?
> What if the WS was unhappy not due to the marriage being bad, but because of issues beyond either spouses control? Such as health or financial issues or the death of a child? What if they were looking for an escape from those stressors rather than an escape from their marriage?
> 
> And please be gentle... I'm living this right now and it's fresh.
> ...




There is hope.
You just need to remember that a lot of people who come to TAM have good reason to think the worst. It's not always like that....but when you put a subset together with the same experiences it does seem like the norm.
Look under the reconciliation section.
R is hard hard work...but can be worth it to have a fulfilling marriage. As I said before not necessarily better but fulfilling.



Sent from my iPhone


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

No.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

Depends on the question you are asking.

*Are there marriages that got better after an affair?* Yes, there are a few such examples here.

*Are there marriages where the affair has caused the marriage to get better?* Doubtful. Other things, such as therapy and self reflection are also involved and they were probably what caused the marriage to get better, not the affair. So why not just do the therapy and self reflection without the affair.

*Is an affair likely to result in a better marriage?* No, just look at threads here, most affairs damage or destroy the marriage.

But the issue is where are you going with this? Do you really want to ask something like: 
*Affairs are OK because they might make my marriage better? 
*My answer to that is NO NO NO. There is no causation between the affair and a better marriage. It is far more likely to damage the marriage than to improve it. Plus there are other better options, eg therapy or self reflection.


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## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

heartbroken50 said:


> Is there no hope then?
> What if the WS was unhappy not due to the marriage being bad, but because of issues beyond either spouses control? Such as health or financial issues or the death of a child? What if they were looking for an escape from those stressors rather than an edscape from their marriage?
> 
> And please be gentle... I'm living this right now and it's fresh.
> ...


Your vows,generally,cover this situation,no?


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## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

rockon said:


> Before you make an asinine comment, did you bother to read Cletus's
> threads?


Pretty interesting.


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## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> It's a shame you never heard such a thing?


Exactly.


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## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Or live under?


Did that already after family court. Just like a lot of guys who lost their homes and some access to their kids as no fault divorce does not factor in cheating.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

citygirl4344 said:


> There is hope.
> You just need to remember that a lot of people who come to TAM have good reason to think the worst. It's not always like that....but when you put a subset together with the same experiences it does seem like the norm.
> Look under the reconciliation section.
> R is hard hard work...but can be worth it to have a fulfilling marriage. As I said before not necessarily better but fulfilling.
> ...


There is hope if and only if the wayward spouse is totally remorseful about the cheating, stops all contact and has no desire for contact with the AP, and the BS is able to sleep at night not worrying about another affair. In that case, I still think it's possible.

So I guess the thing is about the affair stuff making a marriage better--- I think hell no.
Can a marriage survive it if the WS is remorseful, and then recover and get better? I think it's possible, but not as a result of the affair. In 99% of cases, I think the affair is a marriage killer. The 1% or less that it doesn't kill it, there's going to be lifelong consequences that are negative-- mistrust, resentment, etc.

Those of you that have "better Marriages" as a result of cheating? I think you have better coping mechanisms as a result of a traumatic experience. The mistrust has to be there. If you changed as a result of it, good for you. If your marriage is better, good for you. Do you wish it was a result of basically any other impetus? I think so.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

TRy said:


> The problem with hysterical bonding is that it is only short term, and causes resentment because it shows the BS what was possible had the cheater not denied them this for so many years.


 @TRy, quite often it was the BS who was denying their spouse intimacy in the marriage prior to the A. 

Hysterical bonding - 4 years and counting, I think it just might stick!


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

No, cheating cannot lead to a better marriage. Yes, cheating can hurt so bad that as a couple you hit bottom and either stop being a couple, spackle over the pain and live like zombies or identify the problem and do the hard work to rebuild the relationship. 

That rebuilt relationship could be better than the relationship that preceded the infidelity. The credit for the improvement goes to the hard work done in rebuilding the relationship, not to the infidelity.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Acoa said:


> That rebuilt relationship could be better than the relationship that preceded the infidelity. The credit for the improvement goes to the hard work done in rebuilding the relationship, not to the infidelity.


Unfortunately, in some instances it takes the infidelity to break the marriage down to the point where both people realize that it needs worked on. That doesn’t mean the infidelity is excused, justified or necessary. But it could be the catalyst to start the work. 

My marriage was not at a horrible state when I cheated. I was very much in love with my husband, but unfulfilled in many ways. Ways that I had communicated to my husband for 7 years that things were lacking for me. Nothing ever changed. I craved affection, attention, compliments, praise – I could talk until I was blue in the face that I needed them and they went unmet. I needed date nights and cuddling, to feel like I was more important than his friends and his sports and to not be left at home on our anniversary while he golfed all day with the neighbor. Left at home alone on Valentines Day while he played basketball. Guess what OM gave me? Attention, affection, compliments, praise. And boy did my drunk brain eat it up. (My infidelity was a drunken ONS – oral sex that I did not perform to completion)

The VERY first thing out of my husbands mouth when he found out I cheated was “I KNOW I’m not a great husband, but no one deserves to be cheated on”.

I remember thinking (and still think) that it is quite odd that the first thing out of his mouth was that he wasn’t a great husband. If you KNOW you are not a great spouse, if you KNOW you are not meeting your partners needs – why are you either A) staying with them or B) not working on them? That is NOT to say he is at fault for the affair, he is not, that is on me. But why did it need to take the catalyst of cheating to open his eyes he wasn’t being a good spouse? 

Why did it take the cheating for me to open my eyes that I was such an attention seeker in so many aspects of my life that I was vulnerable to breaking my morals and vows just to get some attention? 

Why did it take cheating to open the lines of communication between us? To open us both up to setting clear boundaries and sticking by them? Why were we both so afraid to do that BEFORE the infidelity?

And the funny thing is – my HUSBAND is the one that thinks that infidelity should make the marriage better. I am 3 years out today from my infidelity. For 2 years we rugswept, I trickle trothed and lied. I came fully clean in October of 2015. At the end of September 2015 my husband asked for a separation. When I asked him why he said it was because our marriage did not get better after my infidelity (and it didn’t). His words were “After something like that, things should have been a million times better, after something so devastating happens to a marriage – that should be the signal to really work on things and work you’re a$$ off to save it and that didn’t happen”. He was going to divorce me BEFORE I came clean about the whole story – because I hadn’t put in the work to make things better. I came clean, asked for one more chance and now here we are.

Is our marriage better? In ways yes. But please understand, I am only 6 months in to this whole reconciliation thing – after also finding out there was some infidelity on his side. Our communication is better. If you’ve read my thread you’ll know it’s still not great, but it’s definitely BETTER. We’ve recommitted to date night. We can’t really schedule it, but we do it. We went on our first vacation together ever. Outside of an instance last week our arguments are not anywhere near as bad as they were. He has attended more family functions with me and done more things as a family, instead of always being too busy. Heck the other night he took the dogs on a walk with me for the first time – and we’ve had dogs the entire 11 years we’ve been together! He says thanks for dinner now. He’ll wash my car for me without asking. He’s stopped lying about porn and phone guarding.

Lord knows that he and I have SO FAR to go – in ways that don’t even include the infidelity. But our marriage today is better than it was pre-infidelity. It shouldn’t have happened on either of our ends, but it WAS what knocked us both for a loop enough to say “Do you want to work on this and save it or not?” And we both wanted to. And I just have faith that some day, it’ll be worth it.


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## heartbroken50 (Aug 9, 2016)

Evinrude58 said:


> There is hope if and only if the wayward spouse is totally remorseful about the cheating, stops all contact and has no desire for contact with the AP, and the BS is able to sleep at night not worrying about another affair. In that case, I still think it's possible.
> 
> So I guess the thing is about the affair stuff making a marriage better--- I think hell no.
> Can a marriage survive it if the WS is remorseful, and then recover and get better? I think it's possible, but not as a result of the affair. In 99% of cases, I think the affair is a marriage killer. The 1% or less that it doesn't kill it, there's going to be lifelong consequences that are negative-- mistrust, resentment, etc.
> ...


Perhaps I am naive but I do hope that my marriage can be in that 1%... Do I wish his EA never happened and that he had turned to me instead of someone else when life got scary? Absolutely. It hurts like hell. But he did and I can't change that. I'm trying to survive it without having it destroy my family. And if we can eventually get to a place where things are better than before d-day? then it will all be worth it.

My H does appear genuinely remorseful, immediately stopped contact with his AP, submits to random monitoring, agreed without hesitation to a polygraph and actively participates in MC. He says he has no desire to escape in such a way again because it isn't worth the pain he caused me, which he selfishly did not consider prior to d-day. He claims he was happy in the marriage. Can I sleep at night yet? Not well... but if we can pinpoint what led us to this place and how to avoid it in the future, then I think we might be able to heal. 

Granted it's only been 2 weeks for me (very fresh) ... I've already been up and down so much in that time that I've made my own head spin! I acknowledge that I may sing a totally different tune in a year, a month, next week, or even later today!


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## heartbroken50 (Aug 9, 2016)

Bongo said:


> Your vows,generally,cover this situation,no?


True, but the vows don't explicitly say that you can't recover if they are broken... at least ours didn't. Obviously every marriage is different. Do I think I could contemplate R if we didn't have extenuating circumstances? No... I always thought something like this would be an immediate deal-breaker for me. Did I arrive here at TAM thinking I would be able to survive it? No... my knee-jerk reaction was D. But with a lot of introspection about what I want and what I feel I deserve that has changed.


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

Evinrude58 said:


> There is hope if and only if the wayward spouse is totally remorseful about the cheating, stops all contact and has no desire for contact with the AP, and the BS is able to sleep at night not worrying about another affair. In that case, I still think it's possible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with you 100%.
I think even with that 1% that does make it, you always have that nagging feeling. It will never go away because there was a fundamental shift in the marriage where the BS simply didn't matter anymore. 



Sent from my iPhone


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

EI said:


> @TRy, quite often it was the BS who was denying their spouse intimacy in the marriage prior to the A.
> 
> *Hysterical bonding - 4 years and counting,* I think it just might stick!


Whew! You must be sore...

:rofl:


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

LosingHim said:


> Unfortunately, in some instances it takes the infidelity to break the marriage down to the point where both people realize that it needs worked on. That doesn’t mean the infidelity is excused, justified or necessary. But it could be the catalyst to start the work.
> 
> My marriage was not at a horrible state when I cheated. I was very much in love with my husband, but unfulfilled in many ways. Ways that I had communicated to my husband for 7 years that things were lacking for me. Nothing ever changed. I craved affection, attention, compliments, praise – I could talk until I was blue in the face that I needed them and they went unmet. I needed date nights and cuddling, to feel like I was more important than his friends and his sports and to not be left at home on our anniversary while he golfed all day with the neighbor. Left at home alone on Valentines Day while he played basketball. Guess what OM gave me? Attention, affection, compliments, praise. And boy did my drunk brain eat it up. (My infidelity was a drunken ONS – oral sex that I did not perform to completion)
> 
> ...


You are not a remorseless cheater. That's the difference. (Being sorry one was caught is not counted as remorse--lots of cheaters are sorry for that) 
However, your husband will be wise to never fully trust you again. I'm sure you'll hear that he does, but he's not all that sharp if it's true when he says it. I wish you all the luck in the world at continuing your reconciliation. But CHEATING is not a cure for a bad marriage. It's a wrecking ball. If the marriage can be rebuilt because the remorseful cheater helps rebuild it, yes I think the marriage may be "better". But, how many marriages are going to survive the wrecking ball. I'll bet it's 1 in 100,000 even when the cheater is remorseful as you are. I'm not taking those odds.

I still say that cheating will not make a marriage better. Remorse may, not the cheating. Cheating destroys marriages. I don't want any cheater use this thread to twist the cheating into a "marriage building event" in their mind. And that's just what some people that have cheated want to do. The old spin maneuver to ease their conscience. "my cheating was the impetus for our better marriage"..... What a sham.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

citygirl4344 said:


> I agree with you 100%.
> I think even with that 1% that does make it, you always have that nagging feeling. It will never go away because there was a fundamental shift in the marriage where the BS simply didn't matter anymore.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


 @citygirl4344, there had been a gradual shifting in my marriage for several years prior to my A, where I didn't appear to matter to my spouse. In the 2-3 years before my A, our children honestly didn't seem to matter to him, either. 

So, yes, by the time my A began, my husband no longer mattered to me. But, here we are, more than 4 years laters, and our marriage matters to both of us, more than anything else in this world. 

According to the world of TAM, that's a rare occurrence, but I can assure you, it can happen. 

I will say that, no, my cheating absolutely did not lead to a better marriage. But, the work that we both did, afterwards, did. Sadly, I honestly do not believe that either of us would have been motivated to work as unbelievably hard as we did for the first two years, afterwards, had our old marriage not suffered that final nail in the coffin.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Whew! You must be sore...
> 
> :rofl:


You're not right, @bandit.45


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

@EI
Exactly
The work you put into the marriage.
I see what you are saying. The Affair motivated you to either work on the marriage or get out.
I don't know. If that happens then you are the rare case.
I think if you get to the point where the other person doesn't matter to each each of you then what is there to save really? 


Sent from my iPhone


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

EI said:


> I will say that, no, my cheating absolutely did not lead to a better marriage. But, the work that we both did, afterwards, did.


That exactly what I believe, nothing good can come from an affair and I will always refuse to accept it helped our relationship in any way.... It's only the sweat and tears of recovering from it that truly helped


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

heartbroken50 said:


> Perhaps I am naive but I do hope that my marriage can be in that 1%... Do I wish his EA never happened and that he had turned to me instead of someone else when life got scary? Absolutely. It hurts like hell. But he did and I can't change that. I'm trying to survive it without having it destroy my family. And if we can eventually get to a place where things are better than before d-day? then it will all be worth it.
> 
> My H does appear genuinely remorseful, immediately stopped contact with his AP, submits to random monitoring, agreed without hesitation to a polygraph and actively participates in MC. He says he has no desire to escape in such a way again because it isn't worth the pain he caused me, which he selfishly did not consider prior to d-day. He claims he was happy in the marriage. Can I sleep at night yet? Not well... but if we can pinpoint what led us to this place and how to avoid it in the future, then I think we might be able to heal.
> 
> Granted it's only been 2 weeks for me (very fresh) ... I've already been up and down so much in that time that I've made my own head spin! I acknowledge that I may sing a totally different tune in a year, a month, next week, or even later today!



What you describe is all classic signs of a truly remorseful spouse.
I think that you do indeed have a chance. Think about it-- if you are BOTH working that hard on the marriage, and it's hard work inspired by a desire to rebuild what you once had, I think if things continue like this you have an excellent chance at reconciliation and a happy marriage. However, you've got to keep in mind that you are likely so screwed up inside emotionally that you will hope beyond hope that he DOES continue to be faithful. As an outside observer, however, it does sound to me from what you say that your husband truly wants to reconcile. Thing is, I believe once a person gives their emotions to someone else, it's really difficult to get those same emotions back for the betrayed spouse. Maybe I'm jaded, but I think it's easier for a man than a woman to rekindle lost feelings-- which is a good thing for you. I think it's nearly if not impossible for a woman. It's like a freaking switch was thrown into the off position and then broken off where it can never be turned back to the on position.

I will humbly pray that you and your husband find yourselves happy, content, and more in love than ever--- truly wish you luck.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> That exactly what I believe, nothing good can come from an affair and I will always refuse to accept it helped our relationship in any way.... It's only the sweat and tears of recovering from it that truly helped


Which may not have ever happened if not for the affair. Would there have been a catalyst for change, otherwise?


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## heartbroken50 (Aug 9, 2016)

Evinrude58 said:


> What you describe is all classic signs of a truly remorseful spouse.
> I think that you do indeed have a chance. Think about it-- if you are BOTH working that hard on the marriage, and it's hard work inspired by a desire to rebuild what you once had, I think if things continue like this you have an excellent chance at reconciliation and a happy marriage. However, you've got to keep in mind that you are likely so screwed up inside emotionally that you will hope beyond hope that he DOES continue to be faithful. As an outside observer, however, it does sound to me from what you say that your husband truly wants to reconcile. Thing is, I believe once a person gives their emotions to someone else, it's really difficult to get those same emotions back for the betrayed spouse. Maybe I'm jaded, but I think it's easier for a man than a woman to rekindle lost feelings-- which is a good thing for you. I think it's nearly if not impossible for a woman. It's like a freaking switch was thrown into the off position and then broken off where it can never be turned back to the on position.
> 
> I will humbly pray that you and your husband find yourselves happy, content, and more in love than ever--- truly wish you luck.


I'm sure I will always have some lingering doubts. I will probably never blindly trust _anyone _again... our extenuating circumstances (H has terminal cancer) while at first made dealing with his betrayal very complicated for me, in other ways have made things clearer. I truly believe that his illness and how we have both responded to it are what brought on his EA... but it is also highly motivating for reconciling... for both of us I think (hope, pray).


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

citygirl4344 said:


> @EI
> Exactly
> The work you put into the marriage.
> I see what you are saying. The Affair motivated you to either work on the marriage or get out.
> ...


That's a characterization that's been used now twice on the same page.

It is not necessarily true that a wayward spouse has ceased to care for the other partner. That's entirely too simplistic a picture to paint. If people believe this, then it's understandable why they might fail to see how an affair can be a catalyst for improvement.

Those who insist that it just "can't be so" are wrong, no more polite way to say it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

Cletus said:


> That's a characterization that's been used now twice on the same page.
> 
> It is not necessarily true that a wayward spouse has ceased to care for the other partner. That's entirely too simplistic a picture to paint. If people believe this, then it's understandable why they might fail to see how an affair can be a catalyst for improvement.
> 
> ...




I agree that in some cases the WS does still care. I'm sure there are a number of reasons why people cheat. 
I think an affair as a catalyst for improvement doesn't exist.
People can attribute the affair to providing a outlook as to how bad the problems are...but if an affair will solve it then why doesn't everyone with the smallest issue in their marriage run out and have an affair...there you go . Problem solved.



Sent from my iPhone


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

NotEasy said:


> Depends on the question you are asking.
> 
> *Are there marriages that got better after an affair?* Yes, there are a few such examples here.
> 
> ...


Affairs don't ever fix marriages. Affairs are the train crash that happens when things are going wrong. 

It's what some people do afterwards that can fix the marriage, often there's just too many casualties or damage, or (a bit like the corporate world) one or both parties won't (or can't) adjust to better ways and keeps making shortcuts. There has to recognition from both parties that things aren't working properly and it has to be solved, often the solution isn't worth the effort so better to move on. In some cases it's worth it to make the changes. (I don't use "work on it" - because work implies to most people efforts that aren't fun or are always a path to getting ripped off, and more importantly to many people "work" implies a goal-line or target and some sort of progressive management or measurement ), and worst of all "working" won't necessarily get the job done: effort =/= improvement.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

TRy said:


> It does not really matter who says it. A large percentage of cheaters can manipulate the shell shocked betrayed spouse into believing just about anything, including that the betrayed spouse was to blame for the affair, and that the affair helped the marriage because it allowed the betrayed spouse to address the false never heard before issues of the cheater. A famous con man once said that you can get anyone to believe the unbelievable as long as they want to believe. Many betrayed spouses want to believe that they where to blame because then they can fix it and then everything will be better.


A surprising number of therapist/psychologist do similar. Wanting to "get the positive message" at all costs they will spin out any kind of self-righteous bull that they can apply to a situation; just so they can stay true to their ideology. Sadly some of these are quite influential (and write lots of books) - this is also because the more social following and social support they have the more feedback they receive to validate their bull, and they're typical ones that equate social noise with positive reinforcement. (ie what is popular must be true)


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

citygirl4344 said:


> I agree that in some cases the WS does still care. I'm sure there are a number of reasons why people cheat.
> I think an affair as a catalyst for improvement doesn't exist.
> People can attribute the affair to providing a outlook as to how bad the problems are...but if an affair will solve it then why doesn't everyone with the smallest issue in their marriage run out and have an affair...there you go . Problem solved.
> 
> ...


Sometimes a spouse just doesn't get it. They need a magnitude 9 event to shake them into understanding. An affair is like pulling the pin on a hand grenade and hoping you survive, so it's not a good choice for a catalyst, but it can ultimately serve the same purpose.

It DOES exist, whether you wish to believe it or not.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Sometimes a spouse just doesn't get it. They need a magnitude 9 event to shake them into understanding. An affair is like pulling the pin on a hand grenade and hoping you survive, so it's not a good choice for a catalyst, but it can ultimately serve the same purpose.
> 
> It DOES exist, whether you wish to believe it or not.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk




Shake them into understanding what? I hope you aren't trying to blame a spouse for the WS having the affair. You mean shake them into understanding there is a problem? Leave.
Leaving will shake them into understanding. An affair is just heartless, cowardly and the biggest slap in the face you can suffer.





Sent from my iPhone


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Evinrude58 said:


> You are not a remorseless cheater. That's the difference. (Being sorry one was caught is not counted as remorse--lots of cheaters are sorry for that)
> 
> However, your husband will be wise to never fully trust you again. I'm sure you'll hear that he does, but he's not all that sharp if it's true when he says it. I wish you all the luck in the world at continuing your reconciliation. But CHEATING is not a cure for a bad marriage. It's a wrecking ball. If the marriage can be rebuilt because the remorseful cheater helps rebuild it, yes I think the marriage may be "better". But, how many marriages are going to survive the wrecking ball. I'll bet it's 1 in 100,000 even when the cheater is remorseful as you are. I'm not taking those odds.
> 
> ...




What her husband did was a lot worse. Enough said.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

heartbroken50 said:


> Perhaps I am naive but I do hope that my marriage can be in that 1%... Do I wish his EA never happened and that he had turned to me instead of someone else when life got scary? Absolutely. It hurts like hell. But he did and I can't change that. I'm trying to survive it without having it destroy my family. And if we can eventually get to a place where things are better than before d-day? then it will all be worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The odds are greater than 1%, especially in your situation.


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> What her husband did was a lot worse. Enough said.




Just because One spouse cheats does not justify the other one cheating.



Sent from my iPhone


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Sometimes a spouse just doesn't get it. They need a magnitude 9 event to shake them into understanding. An affair is like pulling the pin on a hand grenade and hoping you survive, so it's not a good choice for a catalyst, but it can ultimately serve the same purpose.
> 
> It DOES exist, whether you wish to believe it or not.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


This sort of implies that the reason for an affair is the "last ditch" effort to save it? Filing for divorce wouldn't suffice as the catalyst for change?


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Which may not have ever happened if not for the affair. Would there have been a catalyst for change, otherwise?


I believe so, she could have filed for divorce, left me for a couple weeks, lots of other healthier options


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

honcho said:


> This sort of implies that the reason for an affair is the "last ditch" effort to save it? Filing for divorce wouldn't suffice as the catalyst for change?


Exactly, fully with u on that.... One spouse using an affair as a last ditch effort seems intentional to me and another level of cruelty..... Why would they even assume they would be taken back and have any chance to save anything after cheating? Thats a very presumptuous approach and could backfire badly


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Sometimes a spouse just doesn't get it. They need a magnitude 9 event to shake them into understanding. An affair is like pulling the pin on a hand grenade and hoping you survive, so it's not a good choice for a catalyst, but it can ultimately serve the same purpose.
> 
> It DOES exist, whether you wish to believe it or not.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Ugh.... No no no.... An affair is more like blowing up a nuke in the marriage, there is no guarantee anything will survive, none. It's dangerous too, lot people have gotten hurt or even killed for it.... And it's my belief anyways people cheat because it feels good, the last thing on their mind I trying to fix anything or even think of their spouse!


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Evinrude58 said:


> I don't want any cheater use this thread to twist the cheating into a "marriage building event" in their mind.



Yep, we certainly don't want anyone fixing a bad marriage. We need more victims.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Cletus said:


> That's a characterization that's been used now twice on the same page.
> 
> It is not necessarily true that a wayward spouse has ceased to care for the other partner. That's entirely too simplistic a picture to paint. If people believe this, then it's understandable why they might fail to see how an affair can be a catalyst for improvement.
> 
> ...


 @Cletus, I want you to understand that I was not implying that all WS's have ceased to care for their spouses before having an A. I was only speaking to my particular situation. I would never try to speak for anyone else. I think it's very important that every individual be allowed to share their stories with all of the varied nuances.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Sometimes a spouse just doesn't get it. They need a magnitude 9 event to shake them into understanding. An affair is like pulling the pin on a hand grenade and hoping you survive, so it's not a good choice for a catalyst, but it can ultimately serve the same purpose.
> 
> It DOES exist, whether you wish to believe it or not.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk




Something doesn't have to be morally right to be effective. One can say divorce is the better choice and filing is a catalyst for improvement, and I would agree. But, even though it's morally wrong, an affair is also a effective catalyst in some cases.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

CantBelieveThis said:


> .. And it's my belief anyways people cheat because it feels good, the last thing on their mind I trying to fix anything or even think of their spouse!



You don't have to do something with the intention of it being a catalyst for it to have the effect of one.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

CantBelieveThis said:


> And it's my belief anyways people cheat because it feels good, the last thing on their mind I trying to fix anything or even think of their spouse!


Speaking for myself, yes, that is exactly why I cheated. Because, it felt good, and I hadn't felt good about much of anything for longer than I could remember. I had spent a solid 2 1/2 years before my A, trying everything within my power to fix my marriage. By the time my A began, I had concluded that that was not going to happen, and I was no longer thinking of my spouse, I was thinking only of myself. 



WorkingOnMe said:


> You don't have to do something with the intention of it being a catalyst for it to have the effect of one.


This definitely applied in our marriage. I didn't have the A with the intention of it being a catalyst to force improvement in our relationship. I had given up on saving our marriage. But, our financial situation, coupled with the needs of our 4 sons, who were all still living at home, at that time, made getting a divorce anytime within the next two years virtually impossible. 

It doesn't make my A any less wrong, but there is no way on earth that I would ever have stepped outside of my marriage, if I had had any intentions of ever coming back into it. We hadn't been sleeping together for over a year before my A, and that was his choice, not mine. I had moved out of our bedroom, months before, because his constant rejection had become so painful, I could hardly bear to look at him, anymore. So, after I told him in January, 2011, that I planned to divorce him in June, 2013, I quit wearing my wedding rings, and I told him that I would have passion in my life, with or without him. I didn't have anyone, in particular, in mind, but a month later, I had begun an A that would last for the next 15 months. 

Now, here we are, 5 1/2 years later, together, with the distant cloud of adultery hanging over our marriage. I didn't have the A with the intentions of reconciling. Although, we have reconciled, and we are truly happier together than we have ever been in our entire 32 year marriage. He has forgiven me, and for that I am truly grateful and humbled beyond measure. After more than 4 years, we rarely even discuss it anymore. And, this year when D-Day rolled around in May, neither of us even remembered. I did a few days later, and asked him if he had remembered, but had just decided to spare me, since I obviously hadn't, and he insisted that he had not. 

It does make me sad, when it crosses my mind. I never would have imagined that my marriage would succumb to infidelity, and I certainly never imagined that it would be me who would be unfaithful. So, when I see how beautiful our marriage is today, I think it hurts me that much more that I brought infidelity into our lives. I wish it had never happened. And, yet, had it not, I honestly don't believe that by the time B1 was finally ready and able to work on our marriage, that I would have been able to find any empathy or compassion in my heart for him, at all. 

So, no, my A did not fix anything, but the aftermath of it was the catalyst that motivated both of us to put everything we had into seeing if we could build a healthier, happier marriage than we had before. Turns out, we could.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

MD why are you still asking these question? Everything you post makes me believe even stronger your wife is playing you for a fool. Still.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

citygirl4344 said:


> Shake them into understanding what? I hope you aren't trying to blame a spouse for the WS having the affair. You mean shake them into understanding there is a problem? Leave.
> Leaving will shake them into understanding. An affair is just heartless, cowardly and the biggest slap in the face you can suffer.





honcho said:


> This sort of implies that the reason for an affair is the "last ditch" effort to save it? Filing for divorce wouldn't suffice as the catalyst for change?





CantBelieveThis said:


> Ugh.... No no no.... An affair is more like blowing up a nuke in the marriage, there is no guarantee anything will survive, none. It's dangerous too, lot people have gotten hurt or even killed for it.... And it's my belief anyways people cheat because it feels good, the last thing on their mind I trying to fix anything or even think of their spouse!


The question before the house is "Can cheating lead to a better marriage?", not "is cheating a good thing to try to fix your marriage?", nor "is an affair justified in an attempt to fix your marriage?"

Let's try to keep the distinction in mind before getting our hackles up.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I have read that it can. It can shake up the BS enough to take the WS's pain seriously. EI and B1's story is a good example.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Nothing is impossible. Is this question about making a purse out of a sow's ear? 

Trying to see the silver lining in the black cloud of infidelity?
One might have a better marriage after passing under it, but there's a FAR greater chance of going through hail and getting struck by lightning.

Someone's wayward spouse is telling their BS that as a result of their heartbreaking, mind numbing betrayal, that everything's going to be all better now....I think anyone that would make such an outlandish profession of bs is not likely to be truly remorseful.
Cheating in 100% evil. Can the Grand Architect turn anything to the good-- I have no doubt. 
But I'm sure everyone would be better off just not cheating to start off with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MattMatt said:


> When I Read the story of B1 and EI it made me think about this.
> 
> Because their marriage did improve after the infidelity.


Yep...I was thinking of them too.. in their situation.. B1 was such a stubborn Block head pushing her away at every turn -when she went out of her way to reach him...that it took something this drastic to wake him up.. out of his slumber to the severity of his LACK OF CARE TO HIS OWN WIFE..

I honestly have no idea how she forgave this man.. I couldn't have done it... I still find their story beautiful and redemptive.. but I had more sympathy for her over him... which is not the normal response .. but that's OK..


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> The AP doesn't have to be better, and often times are much worse than the spouses in many categories. I have seen this happen firsthand. The WS just wants to try something different, and they are willing to trade social status, looks, income level, etc. to get it.


The cheater absolutely is choosing something they have weighed and decided is better than their spouse. They choose AP and all the excitement that comes with the affair. Their spouse becomes plan B or maybe even C. People just don't risk their marriage and family accidentally - it's always a choice where someone wins and someone loses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Affairs don't ever fix marriages. Affairs are the train crash that happens when things are going wrong.
> 
> It's what some people do afterwards that can fix the marriage, often there's just too many casualties or damage, or (a bit like the corporate world) one or both parties won't (or can't) adjust to better ways and keeps making shortcuts. There has to recognition from both parties that things aren't working properly and it has to be solved, often the solution isn't worth the effort so better to move on. In some cases it's worth it to make the changes. (I don't use "work on it" - because work implies to most people efforts that aren't fun or are always a path to getting ripped off, and more importantly to many people "work" implies a goal-line or target and some sort of progressive management or measurement ), and worst of all "working" won't necessarily get the job done: effort =/= improvement.


I don't disagree with anything you say. Whether you call it "work" or something else doesn't matter to me, the important point is to recognise it is hard, requires commitment from both and even then is not guaranteed. 
What you are talking about is sort of my second question. Let be clarify that answer:

*Are there marriages where the affair has caused the marriage to get better?* Very doubtful and no real life cases seen. Other things, such as therapy and self reflection are also involved in the cases where the marriage gets better and they were probably what caused it to get better, not the affair. So why not just do the therapy and self reflection without inflicting the affair.
In one case the affair was what broke the inertia and made them start therapy etc. But even then I wouldn't say it was a cause, it just happened first. The cause was the therapy and that they were luckily two who both decided to and could rebuild and it was successful. Many things had to line up for it to get better.
And always remember less painful alternatives might have also broken the interia instead, maybe trial separation or the threat of divorce or even actual divorce with possible remarriage.


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## Emmi (Dec 11, 2015)

My ankle did not get better from breaking it, it healed, but there is still an old injury and a massive scar there. The part of my skin that got a 2nd/3rd degree burn did not get softer or better than ever before, it healed to the point of no visible scar or mark, but for years the skin was so thin that my foot looked purple after a day of walking and standing a lot. The best we can HOPE for is to be fully restored, to be fully healed. 

Saying that cheating can lead to a better marriage is like saying that getting lifestyle diabetes can lead to better health. Sure it may be a catalyst for eating healthier and cutting out some junk, but now you've got diabetes for the rest of your life, that is not better health. 

I believe that in some cases the work put in after infidelity can lead to a better marriage, but the work on its own would have done that even better without the infidelity.

In my own case I don't believe our marriage can ever be better than it was before the bad stuff, the only thing we can hope for is to be fully restored, fully healed, to get as good as before. But there will always be this old injury and this horrible scar. Our marriage was so good that I believe this broken, healing version of it is still better than any other alternative.


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## Emmi (Dec 11, 2015)

drifter777 said:


> I reject this assertion. If both man and wife are happy in the marriage then cheating is not possible. You cannot desire another person unless you think they are "better" than the one you are with and, by definition, that means you are NOT happy with your partner. You might not hate them but you sure as hell do not love them in any rational sense of the word.


You don't have to desire someone to cheat with them, there are research done that states the mistress quite often is inferior to the wife, I don't have the sources, just google it if you want. The mistress quite often only need to be there and willing, and as high quality people don't tend to be willing to be a second choice the pickings are slim. And yes I view the OM/OW to be the second choice, the plan B.



heartbroken50 said:


> Is there no hope then?
> What if the WS was unhappy not due to the marriage being bad, but because of issues beyond either spouses control? Such as health or financial issues or the death of a child? What if they were looking for an escape from those stressors rather than an escape from their marriage?
> 
> And please be gentle... I'm living this right now and it's fresh.
> ...


I am so sorry for what you and your husband are going through. There is hope though, the way I see it it is easier for me to forgive my husband and rebuild with him when I know the reason he cheated was because of his own problems with his bad health. If it wasn't for that then he would have just been an a**hole, and I wouldn't have been able to wrap my head around that.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Emmi said:


> *I believe that in some cases the work put in after infidelity can lead to a better marriage, but the work on its own would have done that even better without the infidelity.*


 If 2 people desire to salvage their marriage, from the ashes, even if others would never understand it, and find them nothing but foolish...I still wouldn't knock their decision...

But







.... it would have been so much better had these couples AVOIDED this train wreck in their lives (the severest of marital wounds/ betrayal leaving behind scars)....by owning up to where they were missing it (whether that just be 1 partner or both), got down in the dirt together & put the "extraordinary care" back into loving & caring for each other...


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

drifter777 said:


> The cheater absolutely is choosing something they have weighed and decided is better than their spouse. They choose AP and all the excitement that comes with the affair. Their spouse becomes plan B or maybe even C. People just don't risk their marriage and family accidentally - it's always a choice where someone wins and someone loses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is not so much that the AP is better. The WS feels better about themselves because they get to experience something that the haven't felt for a long time, or perhaps never. The AP is genuinely interested in them, laughs at their jokes, is playful, and devotes full attention to them. 

So even if the AP is lacking in looks, status, income, etc, putting the WS on a pedestal and making them feel desired more than makes up for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

drifter777 said:


> The cheater absolutely is choosing something they have weighed and decided is better than their spouse. They choose AP and all the excitement that comes with the affair. Their spouse becomes plan B or maybe even C. People just don't risk their marriage and family accidentally - it's always a choice where someone wins and someone loses.


I don't know drifter maybe not always, I can see someone cheating just for the excitement of something new, especially if it's a man, and still love their spouse n not want to leave them. I mean, how many men go to adult night clubs, and do things that am sure their wives would consider cheating, but that man in that club is just having fun, and plans to go home and not leave his home or wife, he even still loves her.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

There is also the scenario of a poor marriage that you can't seem to fix no matter what you try, but for whatever reason won't leave. An affair may make it tolerable by providing for unmet needs, and allow you to treat your spouse better than you would otherwise. This may be how some WS think of it - and if it does blow up on them, they may not be much worse off. [Insert the standard disclaimers, disapprovals, blah, blah, blah, here.]


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

MAJDEATH said:


> It is not so much that the AP is better. The WS feels better about themselves because they get to experience something that the haven't felt for a long time, or perhaps never. The AP is genuinely interested in them, laughs at their jokes, is playful, and devotes full attention to them.
> 
> So even if the AP is lacking in looks, status, income, etc, putting the WS on a pedestal and making them feel desired more than makes up for it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My AP was not better looking than my husband – if my husbands a 10, AP was a 2. He’s got a beer gut, receding hairline, his face is not attractive. Drinks like an alcoholic, has 3 DUI’s, makes less money than my husband, was a known womanizer/serial cheat. Yells at his wife in front of people, cusses at his kids. The only real redeeming quality my AP had was a hilarious sense of humor. 

NONE of that mattered in the moment. The only thing that mattered to me was that he was complimenting me, stroking my ego, feeding me attention that I’d craved for so long and was not getting no matter how much I begged, pleaded and stated that I needed it. He was 100% focused on ME, telling me I was beautiful (my husband never had), complimenting my weight loss (my husband never had), complimented my haircut (my husband said it was too short and that I looked like a “d*ke), telling me that I was the ‘coolest’ wife out of all the wives we were friends with (my husband had always said none of them had to live with me so they didn’t really know) – I felt validated for the first time in 7 years. I felt pretty, desirable, worth something – instead of like I just existed and wasn’t worthy of being complimented, cherished and praised.

I had zero sexual attraction to my AP before that night. And I didn’t really have much sexual attraction to him in the moment. But my brain was eating up what he was dishing out. I wanted more, more, more of it. I started encouraging more of these smooth things to be said because I wanted to hear it so much more. Add in a little coercion, a lot of alcohol, I felt like I led him on by feeding into his praise and I owed him something. 

It was never about comparing him to J, it was never about him being better than J. It was about fulfilling an emotional need that I’d had for a long time that had gone unfulfilled. I didn’t care about anything else right then. Not J, not my kids, not my life. I just ate it up like it was heroin to an addict.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> My AP was not better looking than my husband – if my husbands a 10, AP was a 2. He’s got a beer gut, receding hairline, his face is not attractive. Drinks like an alcoholic, has 3 DUI’s, makes less money than my husband, was a known womanizer/serial cheat. Yells at his wife in front of people, cusses at his kids. The only real redeeming quality my AP had was a hilarious sense of humor.
> 
> NONE of that mattered in the moment. The only thing that mattered to me was that he was complimenting me, stroking my ego, feeding me attention that I’d craved for so long and was not getting no matter how much I begged, pleaded and stated that I needed it. He was 100% focused on ME, telling me I was beautiful (my husband never had), complimenting my weight loss (my husband never had), complimented my haircut (my husband said it was too short and that I looked like a “d*ke), telling me that I was the ‘coolest’ wife out of all the wives we were friends with (my husband had always said none of them had to live with me so they didn’t really know) – I felt validated for the first time in 7 years. I felt pretty, desirable, worth something – instead of like I just existed and wasn’t worthy of being complimented, cherished and praised.
> 
> ...




MAJ

What do you take from this post? Besides the vulnerability shown by Losinghim? Here is what I take from this post. Cheating was the catapult to a better marriage, why? Both spouses are now working towards being better people. Both are fallible but working to be better together. It's unfair to say cheating created the marriage to be better. Instead it's both spouses working together to create a better marriage. The cheating was the catapult that brought both spouses to the table, determine what's best for them, then working towards that same goal. This may get flamed, but reality is the cheating is harsh, your marriage was terrible, a decision to reconcile or divorce is made, then you work towards that goal. It doesn't matter what others think, you do what's best for you, whether it be divorce or reconciliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MovingFrwrd (Dec 22, 2015)

I'll admit it - this topic just bites the big one. Who in their right mind wants to say that cheating leads to a better marriage????

The plain and simple truth is cheating can lead to a stronger marriage if and only if both partners can look at themselves and say they weren't perfect, are willing to forgive the other spouse, and are willing to work like H-E-Double hockey stick towards a better place. That takes an incredible desire to work and an unbelievable pain threshold to tolerate moving towards the common goal.

Otherwise, cheating is going to cause horrific damage which leads to a divorce.

So, simply put, can cheating lead to a better marriage? Yes. But it will take far, far more work than if you hadn't cheated and wanted a better marriage.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> My AP was not better looking than my husband – if my husbands a 10, AP was a 2. He’s got a beer gut, receding hairline, his face is not attractive. Drinks like an alcoholic, has 3 DUI’s, makes less money than my husband, was a known womanizer/serial cheat. Yells at his wife in front of people, cusses at his kids. The only real redeeming quality my AP had was a hilarious sense of humor.
> 
> NONE of that mattered in the moment. The only thing that mattered to me was that he was complimenting me, stroking my ego, feeding me attention that I’d craved for so long and was not getting no matter how much I begged, pleaded and stated that I needed it. He was 100% focused on ME, telling me I was beautiful (my husband never had), complimenting my weight loss (my husband never had), complimented my haircut (my husband said it was too short and that I looked like a “d*ke), telling me that I was the ‘coolest’ wife out of all the wives we were friends with (my husband had always said none of them had to live with me so they didn’t really know) – I felt validated for the first time in 7 years. I felt pretty, desirable, worth something – instead of like I just existed and wasn’t worthy of being complimented, cherished and praised.
> 
> ...


Your point here is that you were willing to throw away your husband, your kids, and your life for the OM. That is relegating all of these once-precious things to plan B status. Once you were busted or woke up and ended your affair you made the decision to elevate your husband & family from plan b to plan A. You got a do-over on the path you chose when it didn't give you everything you needed/wanted. That's great for you but the fact is that at a critical moment in your life you chose a path that didn't include any of these things. It sounds like your husband is ok with this - maybe even happy he won you back - but he is your plan B, chosen when plan A stopped working for you.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

drifter777 said:


> Your point here is that you were willing to throw away your husband, your kids, and your life for the OM. That is relegating all of these once-precious things to plan B status. Once you were busted or woke up and ended your affair you made the decision to elevate your husband & family from plan b to plan A. You got a do-over on the path you chose when it didn't give you everything you needed/wanted. That's great for you but the fact is that at a critical moment in your life you chose a path that didn't include any of these things. It sounds like your husband is ok with this - maybe even happy he won you back - but he is your plan B, chosen when plan A stopped working for you.


Not at all. I did not have a long affair. My husband was never plan B. I never planned or thought about leaving my husband. Truth be told, I didn't THINK about anything. Just THAT moment. My cheating was over the night it started. The bulk of the "affair" was the small amount of time that he was complimenting me - one night. A short period of time in one evening that culminated in me starting to perform oral sex that I stopped less than a minute later when what I was doing came crashing down into my brain and I stopped. I never looked for an affair. This man was a friend of both of ours. Nothing had ever happened before this night to make me think I was unsafe in his presence. I was never looking for what I was lacking at home in anyone else. 

Dare I say it? It just happened.

But once I stopped that night, nothing ever continued. He tried to text me the next day to talk about it and I told him to never bring it up again. That it shouldn't have happened and would never happen again.

In the moment, I was not thinking about my family. Once the gravity of what I was doing hit, I did think about my family, about J and I just wanted it to go away. I wanted it to have never happened.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> _*In the moment, I was not thinking about my family*_. Once the gravity of what I was doing hit, I did think about my family, about J and I just wanted it to go away. I wanted it to have never happened.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is my point - for that minute of sex you didn't think about your family. For that minute you relegated them to plan B because your desire to do oral on him was more important - that was your plan A. For a minute. 

We're not going to agree on this so let's stop back and forth. It seems as though your BH stopped pursuing divorce and you guys are reconciling. That's great - I hope you guys make it.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

drifter777 said:


> This is my point - for that minute of sex you didn't think about your family. For that minute you relegated them to plan B because your desire to do oral on him was more important - that was your plan A. For a minute.
> 
> We're not going to agree on this so let's stop back and forth. It seems as though your BH stopped pursuing divorce and you guys are reconciling. That's great - I hope you guys make it.


Have you read LH's story? Are you even remotely familiar with it? Because, I think if you had, you might be thinking that she showed incredible restraint in stopping, what amounted to, a minute of infidelity, vs. her husband's 10 year EA. In fact, I think she shows incredible restraint nearly every time she posts on this forum.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

EI said:


> Have you read LH's story? Are you even remotely familiar with it? Because, I think if you had, you might be thinking that she showed incredible restraint in stopping, what amounted to, a minute of infidelity, vs. her husband's 10 year EA. In fact, I think she shows incredible restraint nearly every time she posts on this forum.


QFT.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> Not at all. I did not have a long affair. My husband was never plan B. I never planned or thought about leaving my husband. Truth be told, I didn't THINK about anything. Just THAT moment. My cheating was over the night it started. The bulk of the "affair" was the small amount of time that he was complimenting me - one night. A short period of time in one evening that culminated in me starting to perform oral sex that I stopped less than a minute later when what I was doing came crashing down into my brain and I stopped. I never looked for an affair. This man was a friend of both of ours. Nothing had ever happened before this night to make me think I was unsafe in his presence. I was never looking for what I was lacking at home in anyone else.
> 
> Dare I say it? It just happened.
> 
> ...





When I read your first post I was angry, truthfully you came across to me as a spoiled brat that couldn't believe your husband was going to divorce you. I thought it was the first time you had a consequence to your actions. I couldn't have been any more wrong. Since that first post I've learned you've been raped and a battered wife. How you see anything in a positive light is amazing to me. Yet you post here with great vulnerability to people you have never met, people who are hurting by what you have done yourself. You help, you care, and yet you are polite when called out.

I called you out on not being remorseful, I argued this with you for several pages. But you are rare, you actually see what your damage has done. You came back and owned your crap, dare I say not many do. You became almost a model of what every betrayed spouse craves for. You consumed yourself into reconciliation, all the while your husband is having an EA. In my book that makes you a very special person. One who has the guts to own her crap, fault nobody for your actions, not even your husbands EA, and then is so resilient to come back from rape, being battered, and be a former wayward who gets it. Very special person indeed. 

While cheating destroys a marriage, I agree fully with @movingforward, it takes everything both spouses have to make the marriage better. Yes it could have been made better without infidelity, I think divorce papers are a big wake up call. While I can't change what has happened in my life, I can change me, I'm doing that and my wife is doing the same. In ways our marriage is better now, we communicate better, we are both more vulnerable, and our love is growing. I'm healing slowly, becoming a better person, my family and friends see this change. But I could tell you every day I hate the REASON why my marriage became better, how I became a better person for that matter also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

EI said:


> Have you read LH's story? Are you even remotely familiar with it? Because, I think if you had, you might be thinking that she showed incredible restraint in stopping, what amounted to, a minute of infidelity, vs. her husband's 10 year EA. In fact, I think she shows incredible restraint nearly every time she posts on this forum.


Yeah, I read it and have no idea why you think giving oral for even a short time shows "restraint". My definition of restraint would have been to tell her husband how unhappy she was and try to fix her marriage without doing the BJ on another man. Only a WW would call that incredible restraint.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Having a truck hit you head on and knocking you senseless so badly that you have amnesia, may lead to a better marriage. Do people say getting hit by trucks can lead to a better marriage? Of course not. 
But, here we have people deciding that a spouse doing THE MOST soul-destroying/marriage devastating thing they could possibly do to the other----THAT may lead to a better marriage.
This is just ridiculous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

drifter777 said:


> Yeah, I read it and have no idea why you think giving oral for even a short time shows "restraint". My definition of restraint would have been to tell her husband how unhappy she was and try to fix her marriage without doing the BJ on another man. Only a WW would call that incredible restraint.


Yeah, her not finishing the guy off is not restraint....
I agree. 

Her having a change of heart and stopping, that shows she has a conscience, although a slow/strange one. Definitely a cheater's perspective to describe it as restraint. 

What I don't get is how losinghim' conscience hit after the guy got his stuff in her mouth. Seems like it would have kicked in a little sooner.
Either way, I think it's a screw-up that can be forgiven when the offender is truly repentant. Losinghim seems to be. And her attitude of owning her own weakness and not blaming it on her husbands EA shows she is not the typical cheating spouse. Most love to blame shift and project.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

drifter777 said:


> Yeah, I read it and have no idea why you think giving oral for even a short time shows "restraint". My definition of restraint would have been to tell her husband how unhappy she was and try to fix her marriage without doing the BJ on another man. Only a WW would call that incredible restraint.


Once again, I'll repeat, have you read LH's story? Because, if you have, and you've concluded that she didn't tell her husband how unhappy she was, or that she didn't try to fix her marriage, then I just don't think there's any convincing you. It appears that her husband was too wrapped up in his 10 year EA (likely PA) to notice or to care. Does that justify what she did? No, of course not, and she has admitted that, over, and over, again. After years of marital neglect, and the extreme frustration born of being deceived, knowing it, and not being able to prove it, she made one, very brief, poor choice, and she has regretted ever since. 

Now, as far as that rude and condescending potshot that you just took at me, I am going to show incredible restraint by not getting into a battle of the wits with you, because you clearly have an agenda and I'm not interested in playing games with you.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

EI said:


> Once again, I'll repeat, have you read LH's story? Because, if you have, and you've concluded that she didn't tell her husband how unhappy she was, or that she didn't try to fix her marriage, then I just don't think there's any convincing you. It appears that her husband was too wrapped up in his 10 year EA (likely PA) to notice or to care. Does that justify what she did? No, of course not, and she has admitted that, over, and over, again. After years of marital neglect, and the extreme frustration born of being deceived, knowing it, and not being able to prove it, she made one, very brief, poor choice, and she has regretted ever since.
> 
> Now, as far as that rude and condescending potshot that you just took at me, I am going to show incredible restraint by not getting into a battle of the wits with you, because you clearly have an agenda and I'm not interested in playing games with you.


QFT.

The way that people are treating LH is cherry picking her words, almost as if she's under a cross-examination.

She uses 100 words to describe her ordeal, and 99 of them were remorseful. But people hone in on that 1, and try and paint that as the overall picture. It's dishonest at it's core.

She has demonstrated remorse over, and over, and over again. I'm as hard on a remorseless cheater as anybody on this board.

But damn it, when one is trying to improve, and is demonstrating true remorse, you think we could cut them some ****ing slack?

SMH...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> QFT.
> 
> The way that people are treating LH is cherry picking her words, almost as if she's under a cross-examination.
> 
> ...


I have to jump in to agree here - as far as WWs go @LosingHim is one of the few cases where I could see R happening - it was a 2 minute A - and she has paid a heavy price - she comes here again and again trying to help...I do not always agree with her but she seems to have her heart in the right place...how many BH's here or anywhere would give their right arm to have this have been the case of infidelity rather than a 2, 3 year affair or an affair in their home or marital bed,-- you name it..in my own life I witnessed a 20 year affair - yeah you read that right a 20 year affair...
@LosingHim has paid the price and for what its worth her H's EA before and after her A is now added on top of that @LosingHim deserves a break...and this is coming from me...>

I for one welcome her contributions - and before you say it no I'm not off my meds lol


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I didn't even know anyone was still talking about me...... :/

As far as not talking to my husband about things, I tried for YEARS. Hell, I'm still trying. 

My talks over the years of "how come you never do anything romantic for me anymore?" were met with "I already GOT you".

My begging him to not go play softball/basketball/poker/whatever 4-5 nights a week were met with "you try to keep me on a short leash". 

My husband TO THIS DAY abuses porn. Which he started lying about 5 months into our relationship. I found some on the computer this past Tuesday and Thursday. I asked him Thursday what I was not giving him that he still watched it so often. I was met with silence.

My husband not only had a 10 year EA, he is STILL in contact with her mother! Just last month he liked a picture of his AP on Instagram. He also text a girl early on in our relationship asking for nude pictures and told her her t*ts were amazing. 

My husband is friends with strippers on Facebook - which I've told him for YEARS that I HATE, but yet he remains friends with them. 

I've begged, pleaded, cried, thrown things - asking him to PLEASE try to be a better husband LONG before I cheated.

The night I cheated, I begged him for hours to come out with us. He wouldn't. Eventually, he stopped answering my texts and phone calls and went to sleep. 

I was dressed to THE NINES that night, probably the best I've ever looked in my entire life and he didn't even say "you look nice". He's NEVER told me I'm pretty. Let alone beautiful. When I ASKED him how I looked on our wedding day he said "you looked cute, but your dress showed too much cleavage". My dress barely showed anything, but that was what my husband said to me. You looked cute. And when I say that it hurts that he's never told me I'm pretty, he says "obviously I find you attractive. You're too sensitive."

If I cry about something, I'm told I'm too emotional. When I lost my house in foreclosure, he went and mowed the lawn. When I told him my sister had cancer, he stared at his phone. When I try to talk to him about anything, he blows up at me.

NONE of that makes my cheating his fault. My cheating is MY fault and my not leaving is MY fault. But to say I never talked to him about things, that I'm still not trying to talk about things - dead wrong.

Yeah, my restraint kicked in VERY late. And I'll carry that to the grave with me. NOTHING that's said on tam about me or to me can make me feel worse than I already do. I can't look at my kids without knowing what I did. I barely feel comfortable talking to a human being that has a penis because of what I did. I don't know who all knows what I did because my husband was reluctant to tell people. But even so, I feel like everyone that looks at me thinks "wh*re". I imagine people saying to him "why did you stay?". I've thought of leaving J several times over the last 6 months. Because I f*cking KNOW he'll be happier without me. But I can't, because I'm too damn selfish I suppose. Because I'm lost in a fairy tale world that I'll be one of the couples that "comes out better". 

I don't care what J did during this relationship. Whether he neglected me, whether he had an ea that was most likely physical.....MY cheating is on ME. And the fact that I can't go back in time to change it destroys me. I gave up the essence of who I was in those 2 minutes. I didn't just betray J, I betrayed myself. All my beliefs, all my love, all my vows. I stomped on all of that. 

But damnit I DID try. And I'm trying now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I for one have been hard on LH in the past. But I support her now. I think she's truly remorseful and doing everything she can. I would like to smack her husband upside his head though.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I would like to smack her husband upside his head though.


QFT as well.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

drifting on said:


> MAJ
> 
> What do you take from this post? Besides the vulnerability shown by Losinghim? Here is what I take from this post. Cheating was the catapult to a better marriage, why? Both spouses are now working towards being better people. Both are fallible but working to be better together. It's unfair to say cheating created the marriage to be better. Instead it's both spouses working together to create a better marriage. The cheating was the catapult that brought both spouses to the table, determine what's best for them, then working towards that same goal. This may get flamed, but reality is the cheating is harsh, your marriage was terrible, a decision to reconcile or divorce is made, then you work towards that goal. It doesn't matter what others think, you do what's best for you, whether it be divorce or reconciliation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LH has wrote about her situation many times. I believe in her case the brief cheating was the catalyst for her H to finally wake up and realize how quickly he could lose her forever if he didn't love, cherish, and appreciate his W. Where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, it's in my signature below!

So cheating can lead to a better marriage, but it takes work and is not the preferred route.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Evinrude58 said:


> Having a truck hit you head on and knocking you senseless so badly that you have amnesia, may lead to a better marriage. Do people say getting hit by trucks can lead to a better marriage? Of course not.
> But, here we have people deciding that a spouse doing THE MOST soul-destroying/marriage devastating thing they could possibly do to the other----THAT may lead to a better marriage.
> This is just ridiculous.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not ridiculous, some people may need the jolt of either an affair or divorce papers in order to invoke some change.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> LH has wrote about her situation many times. I believe in her case the brief cheating was the catalyst for her H to finally wake up and realize how quickly he could lose her forever if he didn't love, cherish, and appreciate his W. Where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, it's in my signature below!
> 
> So cheating can lead to a better marriage, but it takes work and is not the preferred route.




Not trying to be mean or harsh and actually saying quite gently, your wife does not appear to me to be all that remorseful. She had a whatever kind of relationship with the hardware supply guy and entered a home alone with a male to talk about repairs if I remember correctly. Not exactly model behavior that you started a thread about. There is a difference between WS, their behavior should improve, not slide back into the very depths that led to their infidelity. In my opinion it's playing with fire, causes your spouse to not feel safe, and very much not good for a reconciliation. Perhaps this is why you keep starting threads and then protect your wife all day long, she doesn't make you feel safe and combine her behavior, it's just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

drifting on said:


> Not trying to be mean or harsh and actually saying quite gently, your wife does not appear to me to be all that remorseful. She had a whatever kind of relationship with the hardware supply guy and entered a home alone with a male to talk about repairs if I remember correctly. Not exactly model behavior that you started a thread about. There is a difference between WS, their behavior should improve, not slide back into the very depths that led to their infidelity. In my opinion it's playing with fire, causes your spouse to not feel safe, and very much not good for a reconciliation. Perhaps this is why you keep starting threads and then protect your wife all day long, she doesn't make you feel safe and combine her behavior, it's just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Regarding my situation, the time line for remorse was all screwed up. She cheated with 4 OM over the course of about 4 yrs, then went thru 2 years of hard remorse, reconciliation, and change, mostly by herself. Then 9 yrs later felt the need to finally reveal all. Definitely not the preferred method, and full remorse should involve coming clean at the time.

I acted very similar to LH's husband early on in our marriage. I was doing her a favor by marrying her, I was uncaring, critical of her job, looks, parenting skills, family, etc. I told her my only love was the Army, and I volunteered for every opportunity to leave and go to war. I told her to find someone else if she was lonely while I was gone, that I didn't care. What guy would like a fat, dumb girl like you? Apparently several did.

The recent posts about hardware store managers and home repairs were related to my insecurities about what was revealed to me. For her, it was years ago and she has moved on. But for me I was recent in my mind, and I needed to trust her again. She is better about not getting into situations where the perception could be misinterpreted, and I am more trusting of her again, because she has earned it.

We are not perfect, but doing good for now. Let's see what happens in the next 5 yrs. The statistics say that the recidivism rate for cheaters is very high. If it ever happens again, I am done. And she can never use the excuse "he treats my so bad" ever again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

MAJDEATH said:


> Regarding my situation, the time line for remorse was all screwed up. She cheated with 4 OM over the course of about 4 yrs, then went thru 2 years of hard remorse, reconciliation, and change, mostly by herself. Then 9 yrs later felt the need to finally reveal all. Definitely not the preferred method, and full remorse should involve coming clean at the time.
> 
> I acted very similar to LH's husband early on in our marriage. I was doing her a favor by marrying her, I was uncaring, critical of her job, looks, parenting skills, family, etc. I told her my only love was the Army, and I volunteered for every opportunity to leave and go to war. I told her to find someone else if she was lonely while I was gone, that I didn't care. What guy would like a fat, dumb girl like you? Apparently several did.
> 
> ...


Not that it excuses her cheating – but why didn’t you see you were treating her poorly? And what woke you up?


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

LosingHim said:


> Not that it excuses her cheating – but why didn’t you see you were treating her poorly? And what woke you up?


I'm assuming alot of us fall into this trap. Been together so long that little resentments grow into a big problem. In the end, it becomes second nature to knock her down or nag him to death. We do 99 things right but the 1 thing not done or done wrong is a tool to start ww3. It's become the norm, you treat them bad, they return the favor.

Then the excuses set in and one thing leads to another and in the end, the problem was fixable if only one of the two would have stood up and reached out to the other party. But both parties were happy to draw a line in the sand and stare at each other like idiots rather than talk it out. Why, because I have to be the winner, can't let our ego/pride take a hit because then it makes us look weak...I know, after my affair we had the line drawn for a LONG time before I woke up and stepped over that line.

People have said it, communication is how good marriages stays strong. Without it, we snipe at one another with little jabs, instead of coming right out and airing our differences so that we can work on fixing the problem.

Remember a small pin size leak eventually turns in a full blown pipe and a flooded house if ignored long enough.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

EI said:


> Once again, I'll repeat, have you read LH's story? Because, if you have, and you've concluded that she didn't tell her husband how unhappy she was, or that she didn't try to fix her marriage, then I just don't think there's any convincing you. It appears that her husband was too wrapped up in his 10 year EA (likely PA) to notice or to care. Does that justify what she did? No, of course not, and she has admitted that, over, and over, again. After years of marital neglect, and the extreme frustration born of being deceived, knowing it, and not being able to prove it, she made one, very brief, poor choice, and she has regretted ever since.
> 
> Now, as far as that rude and condescending potshot that you just took at me, I am going to show incredible restraint by not getting into a battle of the wits with you, because you clearly have an agenda and I'm not interested in playing games with you.


Please, don't spare me a battle of wits - I enjoy those immensely :laugh:

You are a WW and seem very happy to rationalize LH's motive for cheating. I am a BH and see cheating for what it is - a selfish, viscous betrayal. If her H was cheating than confront that reality, don't start cheating yourself. 

I read as much of LH's story as I could follow for an hour or so. It seemed as though divorce was a fait accompli but they decided to R at the 11th hour. Great - it seems to be working for them. My problem is with your contention that a blowjob that doesn't reach completion is "restraint". It's may be a realization that her H is very, very likely to discover this act so she stopped short to begin minimizing the damage. That is something, but it's not restraint.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

drifter777 said:


> I read as much of LH's story as I could follow for an hour or so. It seemed as though divorce was a fait accompli but they decided to R at the 11th hour. Great - it seems to be working for them. My problem is with your contention that a blowjob that doesn't reach completion is "restraint". *It's may be a realization that her H is very, very likely to discover this act so she stopped short to begin minimizing the damage.* That is something, but it's not restraint.


Not at all. Given that my A was not a work place affair, nor done with anyone else around, the likelihood of him ‘finding out’ was next to zero. Other than the fact that OM text me the next day “I can’t get last night out of my head” and I told him never to bring it up again. THAT was how my husband found out that anything happened at all. I DID NOT TELL HIM. I’ve owned that fact several times. I thoroughly felt like if I acted like it never happened, I could literally, honestly convince myself it never did. 

My AP begged for things to go further several times. I told him several times to leave me alone, that anything happening would ruin friendships, ruin relationships and I didn’t want those things. What I DIDN’T do was shoot down his compliments. I kept letting those flow. So by the time he pulled his pants down and demanded that I give him a BJ in exchange for a ride home – that I’d asked for several times before – I felt like *I* had led him on by allowing him to stroke my ego and eating that up. I felt I “owed” him, so I started, thinking “if I just hurry up and do this, I can go home and I can pretend this never happened”. Not rational thinking in the least, but that’s what was in my head. “Just get it over with”. After I started, I soon realized I had gone past the point of no return. I couldn’t change what I’d already started, but I didn’t have to finish. I was going against everything I’d believed in, everything I’d worried about with J and the disgusting-ness of what I was doing stopped me. I stopped. I said “I can’t do this” and I stood up, walked out into the driveway and said “Take me home”. I’d had enough piece of mind to not let him touch ME. He tried to put his hand up my dress, I didn’t let him. He tried to put his hand down my dress, I didn’t let him. I cannot answer why I didn’t/couldn’t say no before I started. I only know that I did stop less than a minute in when the thought of “what the F*** are you doing???!!!” came into my head. 

For what it’s worth, it doesn’t really matter that I stopped. My husband doesn’t believe I stopped. He thinks it went the entire way. I don’t blame him. It sounds like a lame excuse. Unfortunately, the only person that can corroborate my story is the OM and my H thinks we “just cleared our stories” with each other. My husband HAS seen the no contact text messages I sent to my AP telling him that I had told him several times that night that I didn’t want anything to happen, that the reason that I stopped was because what I was doing was wrong and that I hated him for continuing to pressure me after I asked him several times to leave me alone and take me home. But none of that matters. All that matters honestly is what my husband BELIEVES happened. But *I* know I’ve come 100% clean with what I did and how it happened. That’s the only thing I can do.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Infidelity can indeed be the catalyst that sets off a chain of events that winds up leading to a better marriage.

Still, it's sour grapes for a BS to hear a WS -- whether his/her own or otherwise -- say "my affair made our marriage better".

Ugh. Please.

Also, consider this --

Doc and Jane get married. A mortgage, 3 kids, 4 vehicles, 2 cats, a dog, and a goldfish later, one of them cheats. When caught in the affair, the WS cites a litany of perceived grievances and faults in his/her spouse as being the impetus for his/her decision to cheat.

Still, against all odds, Doc and Jane maturely -- and _correctly_ -- work through their issues to forge a better marriage and more secure future for their marriage and family.

OR

Same scenario, same (perceived) faults and grievances, same hard work and outcome... but minus the cheating.

Which marriage do you think is "better"?

I'll give you a hint -- it ain't Marriage #1.

So yeah, maybe your marriage is better NOW, but is it better than it COULD HAVE BEEN sans infidelity?

LOL. Nope.

Seriously, stop kidding yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> So yeah, maybe your marriage is better NOW, but is it better than it COULD HAVE BEEN sans infidelity?
> 
> LOL. Nope.
> 
> ...


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

drifter777 said:


> Please, don't spare me a battle of wits - I enjoy those immensely :laugh:
> 
> You are a WW


 @drifter777

*No,* I am a wife, a mother, a grandmother, a sister, a daughter-in-law, a sister-in-law, a cousin, an aunt, a great aunt, a friend, a neighbor, an advocate for animals, a Christian, a conservative, an amazing cook, an incredible organizer, a great planner,......... 

What I am not, is a whipping post for someone else's BH, with an attitude of superiority. My husband and I are doing amazing, we're moving forward, not looking back.

The snark that you feel entitled to hurl at me, speaks only about your character. It has absolutely _nothing_ to do with mine.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

drifter777 said:


> Please, don't spare me a battle of wits - I enjoy those immensely :laugh:


Allow me to forewarn you, sir --

You'll lose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

LosingHim said:


> Not that it excuses her cheating – but why didn’t you see you were treating her poorly? And what woke you up?


I guess I rationalized my poor behavior by believing that I saved her from a life of misery, and that somehow that gave me a license to treat her bad. I also didn't realize that she had untreated BPD, and how abandonment affected her in a negative way. I was also just immature to proper marriage roles and responsibilities.

What woke me up was going thru D proceedings. This was happening at the same time as her transformation of remorse, where she stopped all relationships with OM. Perhaps because I filed for D she came out of the fog and realized the cake-eating would end. She also briefly was committed for 72 hrs to a mental ward based on her BPD and wrong initial medication. I came to visit her and realized that she needed my help to get straight with her MH, even while D proceedings were continuing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Infidelity can indeed be the catalyst that sets of a chain of events that winds up leading to a better marriage.
> 
> Still, it's sour grapes for a BS to hear a WS -- whether his/her own or otherwise -- say "my affair made our marriage better".
> 
> ...


Scenario 1: after cheating occurs and on the eve of a D, with nothing else to lose, the BS finally finds the courage to bring up a litany of grievances that she has been burying for years. The WS is surprised and stunned to learn of these problems, and because he is in a more open frame of mind, agrees to make positive changes and work with his "new and improved" marriage.

Scenario 2: after years of unresolved grievances, the W decides to D after the kids are out of the house. The spouses never reveal the real underlying problems in the M and go on telling everyone they were great, but the other spouse just wanted to leave for selfish reasons.

An A indicates a problem in the marriage, not just a problem with the cheater. All actors play a part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I have a question. If all is so well and good in your marriage now, why is it you keep making multiple threads? Why can you not just stick to one? I mean really, you have 49 threads in just over a year. 

I think you aren't even remotely aa healed as you would like people to believe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> Scenario 1: after cheating occurs and on the eve of a D, with nothing else to lose, the BS finally finds the courage to bring up a litany of grievances that she has been burying for years. The WS is surprised and stunned to learn of these problems, and because he is in a more open frame of mind, agrees to make positive changes and work with his "new and improved" marriage.
> 
> Scenario 2: after years of unresolved grievances, the W decides to D after the kids are out of the house. The spouses never reveal the real underlying problems in the M and go on telling everyone they were great, but the other spouse just wanted to leave for selfish reasons.
> 
> ...


You completely missed the point. Whether or not that was intentional I can't say.

Anyway, _every_ marriage has problems, and the only thing that an affair absolutely indicates is a WS either lacking in or completely devoid of integrity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Infidelity can indeed be the catalyst that sets of a chain of events that winds up leading to a better marriage.
> 
> Still, it's sour grapes for a BS to hear a WS -- whether his/her own or otherwise -- say "my affair made our marriage better".
> 
> ...



I disagree. In part because Marriage #2 isn't facing the same grievances and crisis. There's no way to compare the process of reconciliation with a couple just trying to work out their marital issues.

Absent my wife's cheating, we'd probably be divorced. We were a great dynamic couple while dating but the first few years of marriage and babies were brutal. A part of me was relieved she cheated because I thought I had my ticket out. But the affair meant that finally everything wasn't all my fault. It opened up an ability to communicate otherwise impossible even with the most gifted of divorce, I mean, marriage counselors. If we otherwise went to work on our marriage it would have merely been under the pretense of fixing me, not her. We were both actually stubborn mules.

We both matured a lot through the process of recovery and repentance and my wife completed the differentiation process she should have gone through when she was 20 {alcoholic father} This enabled me to finally become her spouse and partner versus her substitute dad. 

It's a bit of word game to debate "did it actually 'lead' to a better marriage? Does that mean you're grateful it happened"??? Heck no, I'm not "grateful" for it. I wish both of us didn't go through that time in our lives. However, it certainly resulted in us building a great marriage as well as us becoming much better parents, individuals and disciples for Christ. They were tough lessons for sure that I wish we both could have learned another way; but, in retrospect, I just can't conceive of any other possible way for us to have learned those key lessons.

We weren't changed or made better by the sin(s) but we were both transformed and sanctified by repentance thru Him.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Quality said:


> I disagree. In part because Marriage #2 isn't facing the same grievances and crisis. There's no way to compare the process of reconciliation with a couple just trying to work out their marital issues.
> 
> Absent my wife's cheating, we'd probably be divorced. We were a great dynamic couple while dating but the first few years of marriage and babies were brutal. A part of me was relieved she cheated because I thought I had my ticket out. But the affair meant that finally everything wasn't all my fault. It opened up an ability to communicate otherwise impossible even with the most gifted of divorce, I mean, marriage counselors. If we otherwise went to work on our marriage it would have merely been under the pretense of fixing me, not her. We were both actually stubborn mules.
> 
> ...


And that's why we disagree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

pidge70 said:


> I have a question. If all is so well and good in your marriage now, why is it you keep making multiple threads? Why can you not just stick to one? I mean really, you have 49 threads in just over a year.
> 
> I think you aren't even remotely aa healed as you would like people to believe.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So healed people or ones with no problems shouldn't post? I thought TAM was like a church: a hospital for sinners not a hotel for saints!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

MAJDEATH said:


> So healed people or ones with no problems shouldn't post? I thought TAM was like a church: a hospital for sinners not a hotel for saints!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you intentionally being obtuse? That isn't even close to what I was saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> You completely missed the point. Whether or not that was intentional I can't say.
> 
> Anyway, _every_ marriage has problems, and the only thing that an affair absolutely indicates is a WS either lacking in or completely devoid of integrity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Any A indicates many things Gus, including an attempt by the WS to return to an emotional state where they are desired, appreciated, and fullfilled. The BS often plays a part in the absence of these attributes over the years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> Any A indicates many things Gus, including an attempt by the WS to return to an emotional state where they are desired, appreciated, and fullfilled. The BS often plays a part in the absence of these attributes over the years.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's _your_ story, sir. It's not everyone's.

Sure, if you've got sh*t to own, then by all means -- own it.

But don't kid yourself into thinking that every BS is as culpable in the near destruction of his or her marriage as you were in yours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Well....

This has been an interesting read. 

I would only say that no... affairs do not make marriage better. They do however sometimes have the power to kill marriages that are already sick, so in a entropic way I guess you could say they have a use. 

Cheating doesn't make marriage better. If it doesn't kill it, it makes the marriage different...not better. No amount of reconciliation or forgiveness absolves the offending partner of responsibility for being a fvcking moron for the time they were cheating. But true remorse and re-building of marital boundaries can make them into a safer person than they were before, whether or not they stay with the BS or not. The WS, unfortunately, will go to the grave knowing they compromised a huge part of their self worth. That is a tough punishment.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

EI said:


> @drifter777
> 
> *No,* I am a wife, a mother, a grandmother, a sister, a daughter-in-law, a sister-in-law, a cousin, an aunt, a great aunt, a friend, a neighbor, an advocate for animals, a Christian, a conservative, an amazing cook, an incredible organizer, a great planner,.........
> 
> ...


I have not nor ever intended to impugn your character - you are connecting those dots on your own. You are a great many things in addition to a fWW - I agree. My issue is that you refer to a BJ that didn't finish as "restraint" and I think using that word to describe what she did is over-the-top rationalization. No BH would agree with your assessment of this.

Gus - thanks for the advice but I'd kindly ask you to get off of my side.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> Any A indicates many things Gus, *including an attempt by the WS to return to an emotional state where they are desired, appreciated, and fullfilled*. The BS often plays a part in the absence of these attributes over the years.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your wife has REALLY brainwashed you into thinking that her affairs were ALL YOUR FAULT. I thought so, too, so not chunking rocks. But, if she divorced you or left you, that might be all your fault. The cheating was all HER fault. There's other ways to cure a bad husband other than f'ing another man or in your case, other men.

However, to say that affairs are an attempt by a WS to seek to be desired, appreciated, and fullfilled? OMG, that really is hard to stomach. Cheaters are not a group of poor, maltreated, innocent victims. They're just cheaters, Everyone has problems. They don't all decide to f someone else as a result.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> The WS, unfortunately, will go to the grave knowing they compromised a huge part of their self worth. That is a tough punishment.


*QFT*


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> I didn't even know anyone was still talking about me...... :/
> 
> As far as not talking to my husband about things, I tried for YEARS. Hell, I'm still trying.
> 
> ...


Hey - I have no quarrel with you. Your situation sounds horrible and I am sad you or anyone has an irrational need to stay in this kind of relationship. I don't understand how a woman can stay with a man who physically abuses her any more than I understand this; but I respect that it is an emotional illness of sorts and "choice" really doesn't enter into it. I hope that by some miracle your H changes his ways and, if not, I wish you the strength to leave and find a new life for yourself. You seem to understand completely that you have every reason to be hurt, angry, humiliated, and disgusted with your H. You also seem to agree that nothing you've had to endure gives you permission to cheat. I would agree with most on here that you should stop punishing yourself about this and start working to change your life. Cheating certainly didn't help your condition but maybe leaving him will.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

drifter777 said:


> I have not nor ever intended to impugn your character - you are connecting those dots on your own.



With all due respect, (and I am being sincere, as harassing BS's on TAM is truly not my MO,) I think you did. Otherwise, what was your intention in pointing out that I was a FWS, if not to imply that my opinion was less valid? As a FWS, who feels incredibly fortunate and blessed that my husband and I were able to reconcile our marriage, I was not suggesting that LH should have gone farther, or that by stopping when she did that she wasn't culpable for the additional damage her actions caused to her already fractured marriage. What I was saying is that, given the circumstances in her marriage, leading up to that point, and after already having allowed herself to get that far into the situation with the OM, then yes, I think it took restraint to stop when she did. 



drifter777 said:


> I would only say that no... affairs do not make marriage better.


I agree with you 100%.



drifter777 said:


> No BH would agree with your assessment of this.


I am saying this with sincerity, not sarcasm. There were BH's who did agree with my assessment.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Evinrude58 said:


> Your wife has REALLY brainwashed you into thinking that her affairs were ALL YOUR FAULT. I thought so, too, so not chunking rocks. But, if she divorced you or left you, that might be all your fault. The cheating was all HER fault. There's other ways to cure a bad husband other than f'ing another man or in your case, other men.
> 
> However, to say that affairs are an attempt by a WS to seek to be desired, appreciated, and fullfilled? OMG, that really is hard to stomach. Cheaters are not a group of poor, maltreated, innocent victims. They're just cheaters, Everyone has problems. They don't all decide to f someone else as a result.


When I was writing the quoted statement above, I was thinking about the influences of why I cheated. 

Regarding my W - she has said numerous times that she is responsible for all of her chosen behaviors. Me abandoning her for several years after treating her like crap certainly didn't help the situation.


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## stillthinking (Jun 1, 2016)

> If you are caught or admit to infidelity in a marriage, can that situation contribute to identifying the underlying problems and allow you to work on resolving them, ending up with a better marriage?


Absolutely. Just not with the cheater. But you can have a much better marriage with a new person because of the affiar.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> When I was writing the quoted statement above, I was thinking about the influences of why I cheated.
> 
> Regarding my W - she has said numerous times that she is responsible for all of her chosen behaviors. Me abandoning her for several years after treating her like crap certainly didn't help the situation.


😕☹🤕
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

I see the posed question as a bit ambiguous. The result is disputes that don't seem to be productive.

If the question was my, "is cheating a way to get a better marriage" Then the answer is, no. It is not a formula for success.

If the question is "can one have a better marriage after cheating", then the answer is it depends. Better in what way? One could resolve all of the pre affair issues and go on to have a fantastic marriage, but the breach of trust and it's ramifications might still linger. Maybe the ws feels the need to avoid certain things to reassure the bs and those are not things that ordinarily one would avoid but for infidelity.

Maybe the bs feels twinges of insecurity or triggers when faced with situations or thoughts. Those things would not exist but for infidelity.

So, the marriage can be better. The marriage can be worse, maybe old crap gets cleaned up and new crap takes its place so the crap quotient remains the same. In the end, the members of that marriage are the best ones to judge whether it's better. Better despite the affair. Better on account that the affair brought issues to a head, but not better because an affair is the best way to fix a marriage. 

Lastly, at 49 topics, I was wondering if you are writing some sort of book or something good and were using this forum for research. Not an accusation, but come on, 49 threads?! It's your right though.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

bigfoot said:


> I see the posed question as a bit ambiguous. The result is disputes that don't seem to be productive.
> 
> If the question was my, "is cheating a way to get a better marriage" Then the answer is, no. It is not a formula for success.
> 
> ...


Bigfoot, you have wisdom beyond your years, and you guessed correctly.:laugh:
And I am forever grateful for all the opinions expressed on this forum. Unfortunately, you cannot acknowledge anonymous names inside the cover, but you can rest assured that a big thank you to TAM will be listed prominently!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

My WW and I were kind of talking about "things we wish we could have done"...

The affair exposed the problems that were in our relationship in a big way... that might have lingered for another year or so. It allowed me to finally SEE MY OWN faults, which she admits was no excuse for her actions.
Our communications are far better than they were since our honeymoon phase ended.

We are both ACTIVE in improving our relationship for the long-term... and that is damn sexy in our book.

We DO wish we were aware of our problems a year ago. Her HEAVY DAILY drinking was not only a distraction of our problems - but also prevented me from getting through to her when I was seeing problems.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Oh, I should have added, the improved communications has allowed me to open up about her faults, or issues that come up - that is kind of typical. It has allowed her to SEE HER OWN FAULTS as well.
Compare to a year ago - we are both in a better, healthier place for a long-term relationship than we were before. The affair itself - STILL SUCKED DONKEY BALLS big time. Costing us both thousands of dollars. Lost time too.


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