# Stigma attached to being betrayed spouse.



## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Hi All:

I am feeling very upset about the stigma that appears to be attached to betrayed spouse. 

Many people appear to question what BS did to make spouse cheat. It's as if all the blame is put on the BS

I have come across books in which trained psychiatrists say that it is really the cheater who has the problem. 

Shirley Glass claimed the cheaters are the ones who are the takers and who are giving less in the marriage based on her experiences. 

She says often the BS is married to an immature, spoiled person who has a sense of entitlement and an unrealistic expectation of what a marriage should be.

Other studies show that cheaters many times have a personality disorder or are the type of people who disassociate or have a split in their personality. The split off part being the cheater, the other part seeing themselves as a good husband. 

All opinions are welcome


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Human nature can sometimes be cruel, judgmental and most importantly- ignorant

One of the first things a BS thinks to him/herself is "what did I do wrong?" or "what should I have done better to prevent my spouse from leaving me to cheat?"
we try to problem solve and we grasp to find solutions to our problems and it is hard to see that the problem is someone whom we loved so much and trusted with our lives was the problem


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Hi All:
> 
> I am feeling very upset about the stigma that appears to be attached to betrayed spouse.
> 
> ...


IMHO (which is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT) the person who cares the least about the relationship, has the most power over the relationship. This goes for affairs, abuse, control, or whatever situation may arise where the SO is at a disadvantage because they simply 'love' more than they receive. 

IMO I think that many men 'feel' that there is an even greater stigma attached to them as a BS. Admitting that your wife stepped out on you, puts the thought in some people's mind that you simply were not man enough, couldn't bring it in the bedroom, or are a loser. I was lucky that the A that happened to me was way in the past. I didn't have to deal with the fog, the NC, or friends and family wondering why I couldn't keep my wife happy. 

Knowing a few women who have been cheated....Outside of a woman COMPLETELY letting herself go physically (a woman I knew, who looked like a model--> gained about 300lbs in 2-3years and absolutely refused to do anything about it because he should love her no matter what = he stepped out and later moved on). With that ONE exception, I have never thought to outright blame a woman for her husband's affair(s).


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I still wouldnt blame the 300 lbs woman for her husband's affair, but I would not blame the husband if he left her infidelity free after trying to correct the problem


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

It takes two people to make a marriage, but only one to destroy it.
I don't think that anyone here blames the betrayed spouse for the other cheating, but one thing is definitely true. If the Cheater had everything he or she wanted at home, then he or she wouldn't cheat. In saying that, the cheater may often be looking for something that the BS is not capable of providing. Some people can not be pleased and there are some things that some people simply will not do. For instance, my wife is totally opposed to a threesome(yes, we have discussed this). If I wanted one, I would have to hire two hookers. This would be cheating and it would not be my wife's fault. It would be a case of me asking for something that is too far out of her comfort zone and not her fault in any way.


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> I still wouldnt blame the 300 lbs woman for her husband's affair, but I would not blame the husband if he left her infidelity free after trying to correct the problem


You are right. But that was the only time that I could really feel for the WH, because that man tried his arse off to get her help. He came to his realization, about his sexless, loveless 4 year marriage; when he was pushing her around in a wheelchair, because she was too out of shape to walk around the store. The guy was only 26, so I couldn't truly say he is the typical evil, cake-eater, just a young guy who finally snapped and took some available opportunities.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

He was too afraid to say to her that he tried his best but this wasn't what he signed up for and then leave and hurt someone he once loved, instead he hurt her even more by making an immoral decision to get outside solace.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

The stigma you speak of is mostly self-imposed. A betrayed spouse usually suffers from self-esteem issues because of the affair. Therefore, it makes sense that the betrayed spouse perceives themselves as being "subpar" and at fault for the affair. That's simply not the case though.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Cheaters are deeply flawed people. I have never met one I respected. 
Invaiabky, the cheater caused most of the pre-affair problems. They are just not good people, in general.


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

Everyone I know seems to hold the idea that the BS is a loser in some way. She/he didn't give him/her what he needed, he/she is fat, old ugly, boring. 

My STBXH made the choice to have EAs with other women no matter what I did to make things better.

Quite frankly these days I don't give a damn what anyone thinks. I just want gone.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

If you do some research of your own, you'll find that when it comes to infidelity, a great many of the infidelity "experts" will blame the man for his wife's infidelity for not having met her "emotional needs". Yet it is rarely that these same "experts" will turn around and blame the woman for her husband's infidelity.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

brokenbythis said:


> Everyone I know seems to hold the idea that the BS is a loser in some way.


I've not seen this at all. At least in my case, this has been quite the opposite. I was actually surprised at the number of people who rallied around me. Even the men didn't rush to my estranged husband's defense. I was way harder on myself than anyone else could ever have been.


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

brokenbythis said:


> Everyone I know seems to hold the idea that the BS is a loser in some way. She/he didn't give him/her what he needed, he/she is fat, old ugly, boring.
> 
> My STBXH made the choice to have EAs with other women no matter what I did to make things better.
> 
> Quite frankly these days I don't give a damn what anyone thinks. I just want gone.


I've seen a lot of this too


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## JuliaP (Mar 21, 2011)

morituri said:


> If you do some research of your own, you'll find that when it comes to infidelity, a great many of the infidelity "experts" will blame the man for his wife's infidelity for not having met her "emotional needs". Yet it is rarely that these same "experts" will turn around and blame the woman for her husband's infidelity.


Yes, bc women cheat when there husbands fail to meet this important need. It is not usually about sex, and not usually planned, and usually something that comes from years of neglect. no matter how hard she tries to get her man to listen and to know how important this is, he blows her off.

I think men also cheat for similar reasons, but are more likely to cheat for just sex: one night stands, bachelor parties, etc. 

There is more to a woman's cheating- it's never usually just to get your rocks off.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

JuliaP said:


> Yes, bc women cheat when there husbands fail to meet this important need. It is not usually about sex, and not usually planned, and usually something that comes from years of neglect. no matter how hard she tries to get her man to listen and to know how important this is, he blows her off.
> 
> I think men also cheat for similar reasons, but are more likely to cheat for just sex: one night stands, bachelor parties, etc.
> 
> There is more to a woman's cheating- it's never usually just to get your rocks off.



There is always this quick rush to judge men's desire for sex as shallow and non-important - as you have done - while a woman's "emotional needs" as so much nobler and worthy. Why is that?


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

morituri said:


> There is always this quick rush to judge men's desire for sex as shallow and non-important - as you have done - while a woman's "emotional needs" as so much nobler and worthy. Why is that?


No kidding! :iagree:


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## frootloop (Dec 20, 2010)

Sara8 said:


> Hi All:
> 
> I am feeling very upset about the stigma that appears to be attached to betrayed spouse.
> 
> Many people appear to question what BS did to make spouse cheat. It's as if all the blame is put on the BS


In my opinion that is far more likely if the BS is the husband. I don't think you need to worry about this too much, particularly if this was your first marriage.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

oaksthorne said:


> Sorry no excuse here either. He gave it a whole 4 years huh? He didn't want a person he wanted a look. You are wasting your sympathy.


Likewise I have no sympathy for the woman who says she has tried everything but no longer in love or sexually attracted to her husband because he doesn't want to change. She doesn't want a husband, she wants an excuse to cheat and feel good about herself.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

For a long time I felt that what my then-OH did was a reflection on me. That I was lacking in some way. And that the people around us would think I was slack.

In particular I remember being convinced his workmates must think I was Mrs. Homely-and-let-herself-go: stay -at-home mum with four young children and he was looking elsewhere with a five-month-old baby at home. I felt that said a lot to the world about what I must be like and what he thought of me (she was quite attractive and they all liked her too.)

That got quashed however when I bumped into one of his workmates and I was looking and feeling particularly good that day. He was very complimentary to my OH about me and although it was inconsequential to anyone else, it actually did a lot for me as regards my self-esteem and getting rid of those thoughts of what people perceived me as.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ben Connedfussed (May 4, 2012)

I see many good points made on this thread. I will have to say I need to leave the 'adultery 101' info behind as I learn more and more.

We are individuals and different in many aspects. There are many reasons for affairs. This applies to both men and women. Men go searching for emotional gain as well as women. Women have affairs merely for the sex, the excitement and the chase as well.

I have seen it run both ways... stigma and sympathy for the BS, man or woman. But for the most part I can see sympathy for the BS. It is true, 'two to make a marriage work, and only one to destroy it'. Those who want their cake and eat it too are totally wrong. I am not saying other reasons for affairs are right. They are not.
If someone has tried to work with the marriage and gains no success, then leave the marriage. Do not destroy the self esteem of the marriage partner with affairs. Just end it before hand. This stigma placed on the BS, either self imposed or from elsewhere is a heavy burden. And we know what affairs do to the BS. The affair can affect future relationships so horribly. 
I have never really came across a cheater that I liked either. I will guess to say I looked deeper into their nature and realized, 'they can not commit totally and honestly' nor do they have respect for the one they cheat on or themselves. I feel sympathy, not stigma for the BS. It is the cheater who stands to take all blame for the affair in my eyes. They, the cheating spouses have made the decision!


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

morituri said:


> There is always this quick rush to judge men's desire for sex as shallow and non-important - as you have done - while a woman's "emotional needs" as so much nobler and worthy. Why is that?


Yes, you see this all the time, especially in the media. You can simply turn on the tv and see this in action by watching Oprah, Ricki Lake, Maury Povich, etc, etc, etc,. You get this idea that if a woman cheats, she's justified because her knuckle-dragging neanderthal husband hasn't been meeting her emotional needs, then it's all "You go girl!". But if a man cheats, its because he's a no good dog.


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

oaksthorne said:


> Sorry no excuse here either. He gave it a whole 4 years huh? He didn't want a person he wanted a look. You are wasting your sympathy.


Right because her gaining 100lbs a year (because she thought and said that once you are married you have to stay together no matter what, so she didn't have to change), and him begging and pleading for 3+ years for her to get help was all about the 'look'. 

Sounds like you nailed it, as he was trying to work it out when she was 225, then 325, and even in the 400's when he finally quit on his marriage. Even though she quit on him years earlier, I guess she lost the look when she got 400+, awesome.

While I agree his cheating was totally wrong; I rarely look at it as a 'good' person that made a mistake, he was the exception. I've seen 100's of cheaters in my 13 years of active duty, and he wasn't typical of the people who do this. He cheated and then divorced, no lying after the fact, no trickle-truth, no false R, just D.


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## Ben Connedfussed (May 4, 2012)

Vanton68 said:


> Right because her gaining 100lbs a year (because she thought and said that once you are married you have to stay together no matter what, so she didn't have to change), and him begging and pleading for 3+ years for her to get help was all about the 'look'.
> 
> Sounds like you nailed it, as he was trying to work it out when she was 225, then 325, and even in the 400's when he finally quit on his marriage. Even though she quit on him years earlier, I guess she lost the look when she got 400+, awesome.
> 
> While I agree his cheating was totally wrong; I rarely look at it as a 'good' person that made a mistake, he was the exception. I've seen 100's of cheaters in my 13 years of active duty, and he wasn't typical of the people who do this. He cheated and then divorced, no lying after the fact, no trickle-truth, no false R, just D.


Yes, would appear he did at least come clean and end it with honesty. He also did attempt to 'help and support, trying to save his marriage. Sometimes enough is enough...


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Thanks all:

Your kind wisdom and input has really helped me more than you know.

Love and Hugs to all.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Many years ago I was in a marriage where I could have felt quite justified in having an affair (my ex-husband was asexual - I am not), but I chose to leave the marriage (after extensive counselling) rather than cheat. No problem is going to be solved by adding another potential problem to the mix...

It's all about integrity, honesty, respect and personal choice.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> Hi All:
> 
> I am feeling very upset about the stigma that appears to be attached to betrayed spouse.
> 
> ...


My experience is that the cheater is much like you describe but as the BS I can also say that I was codependent and also very sensitive to various gaslighting and manipulation and power and control maneuvers. A cheater needs to have someone who is 'cheatable' in order to cheat. Often the cheater will use their partner in order to manipulate and control the person the cheater is cheating with, saying that their partner is 'abusive' or 'doesn't love them' or has 'cut them off from sex', or even 'is cheating on them'. 

Things like he would say he 'didn't understand women' and that's why he thought it would be okay to invite a former sex partner to go climbing with him for the whole day including hour long+ car ride, hike into the woods together, climbing together whole day, dinner after and then ride home. Or that I was being paranoid and 'didn't trust him' when he was emailing his other (married) girlfriend. Or would tell another woman friend that I was cheating on him and that I didn't like her, and so she started spreading rumors around that I was cheating on him...meanwhile he told me that she said to people at a party she had that he went to after telling me he had ended his friendship with her, that I had been seen at a park with my dog and some man. Also that she thought I was dumb for knitting socks when I could buy a pair for a dollar. Effectively keeping me from ever really talking to this woman, and thus keeping the truth of his manipulative lies to each of us from coming forth. 

It takes two to tango. 
You can dance, or you can walk, and dance elsewhere. 
I don't think the BS gets the short end of the stick, one of the things I learned to do in therapy was not to care overly much about what other people think. In truth, most people think more about themselves than to be worrying about the qualities or pitfalls of a BS. Nope, anyone hears BS and WS and cheating you can bet they are worrying most about their own relationships, even if it is to be smug and think that theirs is perfect (that kind of thinking will lead to issues, imo...)

Don't worry about BS getting the short end of the stick or being blamed. If your heart was in the right place, that's what counts. Continue putting your heart in the right place. Let others be concerned with what they are thinking. You don't have to tell everyone about how you did everything sexually your partner wanted, or how you cooked special for them, or how you never looked dumpy, etc. etc. etc. In effect, nobody really cares, and I think that's the truth. They only care in relation to themselves.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I do think that there is in some places a collection of cheaters themselves sympathize and support the WS because to do otherwise would be to call themselves out.

For instance if you have a group of "friends" who have cheated themselves, I sincerely doubt they would be at all kind of sympathetic to someone being cheated on. Instead they would be the first to suggest a revenge affair. 

That's a good sign that you should dump those friends.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Our ex-couselor who is a man and never married told us no matter what is always the mans fault,yeah ok.Our new couselor a women does not take this view,she even asked my wife how would she feel if I did the same thing to her.
There is no excuse for for cheating,the only reason I could see is if one partner is physically abusive to spouse and or the chirldren.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Generally speaking, I think most people sympathize with the BS if it's a woman. This is because she is usually stuck at home raising children and can't easily get out to socialize.
If it's a guy, many will assume he isn't able to take care of his wife either financially or in the bedroom, or both.I know I spent a wasted moth or so trying to not only figure out how I could be cheated on for two decades, but just why it happened when everything in "our" marriage was geared toward providing for her and what turned out to be her children.
Once I found out she was cheating on the guy who moved into what was now her home, I never gave it another thought.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

hookares said:


> Generally speaking, I think most people sympathize with the BS if it's a woman. This is because she is usually stuck at home raising children and can't easily get out to socialize.
> If it's a guy, many will assume he isn't able to take care of his wife either financially or in the bedroom, or both.I know I spent a wasted moth or so trying to not only figure out how I could be cheated on for two decades, but just why it happened when everything in "our" marriage was geared toward providing for her and what turned out to be her children.
> Once I found out she was cheating on the guy who moved into what was now her home, I never gave it another thought.


Cheating for two decades? How many guys she has she had? She probably lost count of it.


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## Ben Connedfussed (May 4, 2012)

keko said:


> Cheating for two decades? How many guys she has she had? She probably lost count of it.


I like how Keko schooled me... at least he is honest in his approach to honesty regarding the 'truth' and nature of such.


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## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

JuliaP said:


> Yes, bc women cheat when there husbands fail to meet this important need. It is not usually about sex, and not usually planned, and usually something that comes from years of neglect. no matter how hard she tries to get her man to listen and to know how important this is, he blows her off.
> 
> I think men also cheat for similar reasons, but are more likely to cheat for just sex: one night stands, bachelor parties, etc.
> 
> There is more to a woman's cheating- it's never usually just to get your rocks off.


If that were the case, then wouldn't cheating women only have emotional affairs. And don't tell me they give into the OM to please him. Cheating people who have PA's do it because they like sex with their affair partner, whether they are men or women. It's no more complex than that.


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## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

My husband and I spent a month going over this topic, sometimes it was yelling, sometimes cursing but mostly coming to an understanding. 

Our problem was communication and trust. We were young parents and a very young couple (16) and we did live together. 

The best way he described it was he put the loaded gun on the table, and turned his back. 

We both are in this 50/50, so if everything good that happens is both persons doing, the bad stuff is the way. I do suppose it depends a lot on the circumstances but for us personally it took two to play the game. 

Drama resentment getback not right fighting.


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

So many cultures actually place the blame of a husband cheating on the wife. It is crazy but they do. If a man's wife cheats he is less a man. Blah Blah Blah

I remind my self that the people with the stigma thought around me are also people who think 2012 is the end of the world (most don't even know how to read the calender for them selves) or that Paris Hilton's lip color matters. 

I did once hear a psychologist on the own ch. during that cheating real stories show (forgot what it is called) say that men cheat for emotional reasons just the same as woman do and that they need love and affection too not just sex and dinner. I actually yelled out "Well Duh!" at the t.v. and then realized that the world is still in the stone age in this area. (and that talking to the t.v. is a little crazy lol)


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

oaksthorne said:


> You leave first, period. Do not pass go, there is no exception. There is no" get out of jail free" card when it comes to cheating. It is always a dishonest and lousy thing to do. No sympathy for him. If she actually gained that much it sounds like there might have been an underlying medical or psychological problem? Something that being dumped will not improve I'm sure


Yes. I agree. Yes, both partners in a marriage likely contributed to any discontent. I have admitted to that. 

Still, I asked for counseling repeatedly my cheater husband refused. He is the type of person who never wants to see his own faults but can see everyone else's 20//20. 

Still, I had lots of complaints about him but did not cheat and was still a good wife who watched our finances and took care of the home front. 

I wasn't out spending our marital assists on a ho who was cheating on her kind, wealthy, attractive husband who spoiled and pampered her. 

This woman BTW thinks she wants my husband but she wouldn't put up with him for a month in a real relationship situation. 

My husband does not spoil woman. He likes the independent type for a real relationship. He is also the type that forgets birthdays and such.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Vegemite said:


> If that were the case, then wouldn't cheating women only have emotional affairs. And don't tell me they give into the OM to please him. Cheating people who have PA's do it because they like sex with their affair partner, whether they are men or women. It's no more complex than that.


I agree. Never having simply "given in" to having sex just to please someone, I don't understand this at all. If I have sex with someone it's simply because I _want_ to.

We're not machines driven by some uncontrollable external power, and things don't "just happen." IMO, cheating is always about choice.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Krichali said:


> I agree! And yet, the stories here of people who have successfully R usually speak of what they learned was wrong with their marriage before, and how they now do things better. Can I then conclude that a BS really _does_ contribute to the WS cheating? I want to reject this conclusion, but my self-doubts keep it nagging me.


I do think situations in the marriage cause the cheater to cheat. They often blame the spouse. 

Still, the Betrayed spouse was also experiencing the same problems yet chose to stay faithful.

If a person is unhappy in a marriage, ask for counseling first and if that fails seek a divorce. 

An affair is a cruel and emotionally abusive way to end a marriage or to bully a faithful spouse into complying with the cheaters wishes, demands or unrealistic expectations. 

My husband refused to go to counseling in the years prior to the affair. I think he refused to go because he did not want a psychiatrist to tell him that he had unrealistic expectations or that his own behavior was the cause of many of the problems. 

He wanted to be able to blame everything on me.

With that said, yes, i agree that there are success stories and perhaps as the shrinks say a marriage can be stronger afterward. 

Still, I have found stats that say even if the marriage limps along for awhile or goes into a honeymoon phase for awhile, in the end most marriages fail. 

What happens is the betrayed spouse meets someone else who treats them better and rather than cheat they ask for a divorce. Once they get a taste of someone treating them well, it's hard to continue to work on a marriage tainted by an affair. 

Affairs kill marriages. As one shrink said: "if men knew how much damage a mid-life crisis affair would do, they would by the Ferarri and forget the affair. 

This applies to cheating women, too.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

oaksthorne said:


> I can tell you exactly that. Women have sex to have the relationship generally. Men have the relationship to have sex. A woman may go indefinitely having orgasm less sex with an AP because it is the emotional attachment that she wants most. Why do you think women give BJ's, what is in that for them?, especially in an A? I sure have never heard of that kind of one way thing with the man not getting anything out of it sexually, have you?. He must get his rocks off, or he's gone. What woman doesn't know that?, and that is why she gives him sex.


These are generalizations that fit many but not all affairs. There are many wives who have enjoyed having sex with the OM more than with their husbands because of such things as the thrill of doing something forbidden, the OM was a very attentive lover, the OM was in great shape (many women are sexually attracted to a man who is physically fit), the OM did not judge her and so she felt freer to sexually do things she could not do with her husband, etc. To say that all women are simply interested in the emotional aspect of an affair is simply not true.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

morituri said:


> These are generalizations that fit many but not all affairs. There are many wives who have enjoyed having sex with the OM more than with their husbands because of such things as the thrill of doing something forbidden, the OM was a very attentive lover, the OM was in great shape (many women are sexually attracted to a man who is physically fit), the OM did not judge her and so she felt freer to sexually do things she could not do with her husband, etc. To say that all women are simply interested in the emotional aspect of an affair is simply not true.


I agree. 

The OW in my husband's affair likes sex. She chose my husband because he was her type and she was sexually attracted to him, not her husband. 

There was also the emotional component because she said her husband worked too much and she liked to be entertained. That is why she chose older men.

She also likes conquests and breaking up marriages is what she likes to do. 

Conversely, my husband liked the sex, but the emails reveal a lot of emotional attraction. She flattered him extensively, told him he was perfect, etc. he ate it up with a spoon even though it was likely a manipulation. 

He admitted he liked that fact that she looked at him with big adoring eyes and was always fresh from the spa when they met. 

I have seen her at the gym and she looks a mess, but whenever she met with husband she was perfectly powdered and coifed. 

So contrary to some claims men do like the emotional aspects of an affair as well as the sex. IMO, they both like the sex, too. They are pigs who just want something extra on the side. 

It's weird, too, because, my husband always claimed he like the way I looked without makeup, but the OW was always made up extensively. 

I now wear make up all the time, when I go out and my husband during our false R complained about me wearing make up saying he preferred me without it. 

The truth is I was wearing makeup, wearing my long hair flowing rather than in a bun, and getting dressed up, not in a sexy way, but in a way that grabbed attention. Other men were taking more notice and he did not like that.


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## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

oaksthorne said:


> He must get his rocks off, or he's gone. What woman doesn't know that?, and that is why she gives him sex.


Isn't this site littered with EA's?


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> The truth is I was wearing makeup, wearing my long hair flowing rather than in a bun, and getting dressed up, not in a sexy way, but in a way that grabbed attention. *Other men were taking more notice and he did not like that.*


And without sinking to his or the OW's level. Sweeeet. :smthumbup:

I love older women. To me they are more beautiful and more real than their younger counterparts.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

I blamed myself for my Hs A for a long time. Over and over i sked myself what i did wrong, or what i could have done differently. Eventually, after IC and a LOT of reading and self discovery i could sit down and think objectively about why my H made such a bad choice for our marriage. I accepted my part in the circumstances and troules in my marriage, but ultimately, it was his decision to cheat. Now that we are in R we have discussed mant time why his A happened and not once has he blamed me or put this on my shoulders. We both agree that out marriage wasnt in a good place, but he takes FULL responsibility for his cheating (no aliens, no bang on the head) and so he should.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I am feeling very upset about the stigma that appears to be attached to betrayed spouse.
> ...
> Many people appear to question what BS did to make spouse cheat. It's as if all the blame is put on the BS
> ....
> Shirley Glass...says often the BS is married to an immature, spoiled person who has a sense of entitlement and an unrealistic expectation of what a marriage should be.


I don't have anything terribly useful to add, just wanted to say that I feel this stigma very acutely myself. 

Being betrayed makes me feel like less of a woman. I have never felt uglier or more worthless in my life. I know that I'm an independent, intelligent, attractive woman, but I don't feel like it anymore.

STBXH is a master manipulator, telling me I deserve his treatment of me, and I seem to have internalized this even though I know better. I have to remind myself that just because he couldn't be loyal doesn't mean that I failed to inspire being treated better, doesn't mean that if I was perfect he would have treated me better (he definitely affaired down), just means that he was a selfish and unethical. 

I took off and moved to a different city and have spent many months away from anyone who knows us because I can't help feeling like what they see when they look at me is "that woman who couldn't keep her man happy" and it's humiliating. It still makes me feel really sad that so many people I know who are less giving, caring, forgiving, or committed to their relationship seem to make things work, but I couldn't, but I had to remember that it wasn't something to be earned. You don't earn love and if that's what you're doing, you're just a slave to your spouse instead of a partner. 

There is definitely a lot of stigma attached to being the betrayed spouse and if you are betrayed, you're likely to be more aware of it by way of your own vulnerability in this time. It's humiliating and it will bother you to your core. However, the cheater isn't cheating because you're not good enough; the cheater is cheating because he/she has no integrity. Don't accept the things that people say about you, if they are saying crap. Don't internalize these attitudes. You've got to fight the impulse if it's there and it's tough to do. I think that's partly what the 180 helps with, protecting yourself...

Read the book "Why Men Love B*tches" (Sherry Argov). It's pretty good (and funny) despite the ridiculous title. Also, read, "The Gifts of Imperfection" (Brene Brown) which is better than its dull title. The same way that men with Mr Nice Guy syndrome end up getting walked all over, women who are too nice get walked all over, too -- part of that comes from internalizing these stigmatized ideas. Overcoming that is part of moving past the betrayal.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

JuliaP said:


> Yes, bc women cheat when there husbands fail to meet this important need. It is not usually about sex, and not usually planned, and usually something that comes from years of neglect. no matter how hard she tries to get her man to listen and to know how important this is, he blows her off.


I don't think that this is universally true. Claiming that it is universally true blames the husbands and that seems unfair; the women in these cases could divorce first and hook up with a new guy afterwards and it would be better to do so. Some people cheat because it feeds their fragile egos. That has nothing to do with neglect. Some people -- regardless of gender -- are bottomless pits.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> Hi All:
> 
> I am feeling very upset about the stigma that appears to be attached to betrayed spouse.
> 
> ...


What about the stigma BS's face when they choose to reconcile? To me, that seems much worse. 

It never ever crossed my mind that I was doing something to MAKE the other person cheat.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

What stigma? 

I have a stigma? where? do they have some sort of ointment for it?


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

sara, there is one main thing driving the "blame the Bs' deal-FEAR.

People who have not been through this need to beleive it could not happen to them. They feel if they make contact with all the right touchstones, follow all the rules, they are safe.
I have seen this in other areas, as well, particularly when my son was born with Down's and autism. There are some really unevolved, insensitive people out there and i would overhear folks wondering what type of drugs i had done as a youth or what offenses i had done against God, that caused this.
The only people that i have had real, meaningful converations about this with are other BSsonly do they understand it was not me, but they understand that one does not just get over this in a short time, if one ever does.

Folks love cause and effect analysis, as if they admit that trauma can be random, they are scared sh!tless.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

oaksthorne said:


> Women have sex to have the relationship generally. Men have the relationship to have sex.


I don't agree with this. Not all women simply tolerate sex in order to get the other stuff. Some women like sex for itself. Some women do tolerate sex for the emotional high of the relationship, but not all; in that case, do these cheating women simply stick with their husbands for their paychecks like prostitutes? Popular culture reinforces the notion of women as more noble for valuing emotional needs and men as neanderthals for valuing physical needs; I don't think that's fair or accurate. Martyrdom for another man isn't always noble; compromise for another woman isn't always corrupt.


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

moxy said:


> I don't agree with this. Not all women simply tolerate sex in order to get the other stuff. Some women like sex for itself. Some women do tolerate sex for the emotional high of the relationship, but not all; in that case, do these cheating women simply stick with their husbands for their paychecks like prostitutes? Popular culture reinforces the notion of women as more noble for valuing emotional needs and men as neanderthals for valuing physical needs; I don't think that's fair or accurate. Martyrdom for another man isn't always noble; compromise for another woman isn't always corrupt.


Moxy,

I like the way you think.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> What stigma?
> 
> I have a stigma? where? do they have some sort of ointment for it?


Maybe you have Stigmata,Pit. Are you pretty religious?


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> sara, there is one main thing driving the "blame the Bs' deal-FEAR.
> 
> People who have not been through this need to beleive it could not happen to them. They feel if they make contact with all the right touchstones, follow all the rules, they are safe.
> I have seen this in other areas, as well, particularly when my son was born with Down's and autism. There are some really unevolved, insensitive people out there and i would overhear folks wondering what type of drugs i had done as a youth or what offenses i had done against God, that caused this.
> ...


So true. Cognitive Dissonance. If you can make yourself feel better than that other person, then you can protect yourself from the fear that you could be that person, too. It's an insensitive and foolish thought, but it is definitely a distancing technique.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

BigLiam said:


> Maybe you have Stigmata,Pit. Are you pretty religious?


Well I have a holes in my hands...

but I think it's a result of *fap* friction from a couple years of trying to recoupe a sexless marriage. :rofl:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> Hi All:
> 
> I am feeling very upset about the stigma that appears to be attached to betrayed spouse.
> 
> ...


People ask this in an attempt to get a full picture of the marriage.

One example I have known of in real life is of a woman who cheated after years of seriousl emotional abuse by her husband. She had an affair, an exit affair. She was the one who but most of the effort into the marriage for years. He had acutally cheated several times in the marriage.

The affiar, while wrong, built up her emotional strength enough that she was finally able to leave me. 

To assume that all BS's are saints and all those who cheat are bad people is not realistic.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Well I have a holes in my hands...


don't eat M&M's


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Almostrecovered said:


> don't eat M&M's


yeah, what if I somehow get some of my stigma on them, they fall through the holes in my hands and some poor kid comes along and gets infected with the stuff ? No... no more M&M's till I get this damn stimga treated...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

moxy said:


> I don't think that this is universally true. Claiming that it is universally true blames the husbands and that seems unfair; the women in these cases could divorce first and hook up with a new guy afterwards and it would be better to do so. Some people cheat because it feeds their fragile egos. That has nothing to do with neglect. Some people -- regardless of gender -- are bottomless pits.


I do believe that most cheating is about unmet needs... for both men and women. However we need to look at the issue of needs.

Some people are bottomless pits as you say. They have unmet needs that no one else will ever be able to fill. 

Other people do have reasonable needs that don't get met by a spouse who as the capability to meet those needs but does not for one reason or another. For example a spouse who is abusive or who withholds sex. These are two examples of people who do not care enough about their to spouses to even try to meet their needs. And sometimes the spouse whose needs are not being met suffer greatly emotionally and then make the very bad choice of having an affair. When a person gets to the point of having an affair they do stop caring about their spouses needs as they feel so deprived that they could care less. They become very selfish.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Well, I would not really classify the bottmless pit types as having unmet "needs'. Desires, fanatsies, unhealthy and unrealistic expectations, yes. But, not needs.
I am sure we can cite rare examples where the BS was truly emotionally abusive or withdrawn, etc.
Problem is that manyW Ss make these claims as justification, and they lie to themselves and their cheerleaders about the character of the BS. Yet, some folks accept their claims with no real knowlwdge of the BS.
Just look at the tone and communication skills of most of the BSs here. I think we are a fairly representative group. I highly doubt, based on their posts they were anything like the WS claims they were.


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## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> What about the stigma BS's face when they choose to reconcile? To me, that seems much worse.
> 
> It never ever crossed my mind that I was doing something to MAKE the other person cheat.


Sooo true! In both MC sessions, the cheating got rugswept by the psychologist, after weeks and weeks of my insistance on discussing the A first. I got ignored & lied to. An absolute insult.
They just wanted to mix the blame so the marriage was the issue. Makes their job easier. 

And yes, every day I'm still with my CW, I wonder what people think of me.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> Human nature can sometimes be cruel, judgmental and most importantly- ignorant
> 
> One of the first things a BS thinks to him/herself is "what did I do wrong?" or "what should I have done better to prevent my spouse from leaving me to cheat?"
> we try to problem solve and we grasp to find solutions to our problems and it is hard to see that the problem is someone whom we loved so much and trusted with our lives was the problem


:iagree:

I have felt like that twice in my life. It is so hurtful and demeaning.

I am not sure which time was worse, when my then girl friend of several years left me for a woman (my girl friend was bi-sexual, but I didn't know) or when my wife told me she was going to have an affair.

Both times I was told "It's not you fault." I knew on an intellectual level that it wasn't my fault, but deep down? Emotionally, I knew it was my fault. Well, that's the way I felt. Ouch. Shouldn't have opened that box...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> I still wouldnt blame the 300 lbs woman for her husband's affair, but I would not blame the husband if he left her infidelity free after trying to correct the problem


Would it be like she was having an EA with food, which replaced her husband in her heart?


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## mackerel (May 22, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Hi All:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The personality disorder is B.S. It's a justification for someone who engages in something morally apprehensible. People will come up with any type of disorder to explain something that's morally wrong.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

I have never viewed having a PD as an excuse. They know what they are doing and have control of it.
The fact reamins that infidelity and personality disorders are linked.
Rather than an excuse, I think looking inot your cheater being disordered is a good idea, as the condition is very intractable and most with it do not change or seek help.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

True needs such as breathing, eating, sleeping are universal no matter the man or woman's marital status. Everything else is a socio-genetic imperative. Don't agree? Then how do these same people meet their "emotional needs" when they are not in a committed relationship?

I believe that the majority of cheating is due to a combination of opportunity, unrealistic expectations and weak marital boundaries.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

morituri said:


> True needs such as breathing, eating, sleeping are universal no matter the man or woman's marital status. Everything else is a socio-genetic imperative. Don't agree? Then how do these same people meet their "emotional needs" when they are not in a committed relationship?
> 
> I believe that the majority of cheating is due to a combination of opportunity, unrealistic expectations and weak marital boundaries.


I'd add poor character.


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## Zippy the chimp (May 15, 2012)

Must be the day for posts to hit home.
I think there is a stigma more for men, all of my friends who I have confided in have been very supportive but you always wonder, guys don't always have very much compassion. 
In this man's opinion the stigma is double (I am sure most of this is self doubt) you have failed to meet your wife's sexual needs and you failed to meet her emotional/ self esteem needs basically you are a loser couldn't do anything right in the marriage.
The farther away I get from this the more I know this negative stuff will dull down, the confidence in the relationship will grow again not as big as before but maybe stronger.

P.S. As a man many of us were brought up that we are the head of the household, the king(sorry ladies), the protector, the person everyone can depend on to fix things, a cheating spouse completely destroys that persona


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Zippy the chimp said:


> I think there is a stigma more for men, all of my friends who I have confided in have been very supportive but you always wonder, guys don't always have very much compassion.
> In this man's opinion the stigma is double (I am sure most of this is self doubt) you have failed to meet your wife's sexual needs and you failed to meet her emotional/ self esteem needs basically you are a loser couldn't do anything right in the marriage.


*Nonsense.*

This is all about you. Your reality. Your self image. You hit the nail when you say "_you_ always wonder" and _your_ own realization about this being rooted in _your_ own self doubt...

Free your flucking mind dude. Its all taking place in the reality you are choosing to see and what you believe. I promise you it's a sh*t pool you are choosing to swim in. 

Most of this stimga you are suffering from and is being discussed in this thread is self-stigma. "Real" or "Public" stigma is just someone’s perception of others’ reactions to his or her situation. Meanwhile, self-stigma involves the internalization of percieved public stigma. It's typically marked by feelings of shame, embarrassment, and low self-esteem directed toward oneself. Largely, you choose your reality and you impose the consequences of your perception on yourself.

Rebuild _your_ reality. There is no spoon. I have no idea what this 'stigma' you guys are talking about is. I don't see it and if I do catch a glimpse of it, its almost instantly dismissed. It's nonsense. 

If someone does believe that my XW getting swept up on a fog and choosing to do the things she did is somehow a reflection on me as a man, they are rediculous sheep. I have no interest in them, or their opinions. I know clearly what I did to contribute to the fracture of my relationship. I regret them and I've taking measures to improve myself as a result, but I have no responsibilty for her choices and her behavior is not a refection of my value as a man. 

What stigma? I see no stigma. I'm respectfully rejecting your reality and substituting my own.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Though, in general, women have a better support network than us men for dealing with the trauma of marital betrayal, they also have to deal with so-called friends and relatives who ask themselves how did she failed, as a woman, to keep her man from straying. So in the end, it's worth sh!t what the gender of the betrayed spouse is.


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