# 30 years and on the rox



## Mylehigh

Hi all,

New here today. Wanting to vent a little and see where it gets me.

Married for over 30 years. Three kids (D27, S24, S23). I ALWAYS put family first - never my job. My family was my identity and for over 20 years, fulfilled my sense of self-worth. 

At the same time, I've always been the sole income provider and we have done well enough to live an upper-middle class life in an expensive part of the country. We paid for 100% of college expenses for our kids so they would graduate debt free (all of them have done so), we've been able to afford occasional world travel, we have nice home, we have savings for retirement, etc... So in other words, in addition to husband and father, I've had a business role in this family system that I've dutifully fulfilled, and it wasn't ever easy. 

Now the kids are all grown, (mostly) happy, educated and highly functional people, and we are now 2x grandparents in our mid 50s.

The problem: my wife has very little interest in sex but I am and have always been very interested in sex (with her). It has been a problem throughout our marriage. For many many (many!!!) years, we used to make love about once a month, but that was pretty much only if we hit the 'cycle timing' just right, otherwise, no-go for another 4 (or even 8) weeks. That was NEVER enough for me, but we always played by her rules. Yes, I communicated with her about it, and sometimes we even fought about it. Fast-forward to now and she is now post-menopausal and cringes at my touch 90% of the time I try to touch her - and this is when we seem to be ready for some intimacy, I'm not just going for a fast grab in the kitchen... Sex is "uncomfortable" for her now due to dryness, but she doesn't seem to want to lube it up and give it a go unless I press the issue for days to weeks on end. She seems to be willing to give me manual relief, but that only goes so far. Yeah, she can eventually 'get me off' but that's not the intimacy I want.

I feel like we are drifting into a hopeless situation and I am resentful and feeling unloved. I believe if you really love someone you just plain want to be intimate with them. Period. So how can she love me and not want me to touch her?? I just can't get my head around that.

I've read books, given her the books to read, and tried to romance her and follow all the good husband rules, but all she wants to do is essentially co-grandparent and co-parent, talk about the kids, etc. 

I want to be a strong, independent couple that thrives on each other as people (not just co-parents), a couple that craves each other and satisfies each other with authentic passion. I don't want to be in a marriage that is less than that. I tell her every day of her life that I love her. I tell her every day of her life that she is beautiful and that I find her very attractive (because she is). I compliment her clothing, her hair, her body, etc. but she is a real perfectionist and thinks she needs to lose weight even though I find her extremely sexy. Yeah - she is probably about 10 or 15 lbs over weight, but holy lord above, she is in her mid-50s. So I say, so what?!?! I am super fit due to active hobbies, and she is not and I think that bothers her. But she is NOT "fat" like she thinks she is. Obviously she has a pretty bad self image and that carries right on over to her intimacy issues.

Life is too short and I think I want out. But I don't want to hurt my kids. I feel so trapped and emotionally and physically unfulfilled.


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## Marc878

There is no fixing this. You either continue as you are or get out.

At this time you have yourself trapped. The only one that can keep you where you are is you.


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## wilson

Mylehigh said:


> I feel like we are drifting into a hopeless situation and I am resentful and feeling unloved. I believe if you really love someone you just plain want to be intimate with them. Period. So how can she love me and not want me to touch her?? I just can't get my head around that.


Sorry to hear about your situation. You have a lot to cover, but I just wanted to address this one point. Likely she does love you, but it's an affectionless love. I'm sure there are many friends and relatives which you love but don't have any desire to be intimate with. I would guess she loves you more like a brother than a lover. So you guys are like older siblings raising the younger ones. 

How is the rest of your relationship? Do you want to stay together for reasons other than the sex? A new relationship will be the quickest and easiest way to have passionate intimacy, but it will be much harder to have that new relationship last for decades. 

You may need to lay everything out and say that while you love her and want to be together, the lack of true intimacy is crushing you emotionally. Ask her to explore the issue as to why she is so opposed to it. Perhaps even through a sex therapist. Even if she doesn't innately desire sex, she can learn a lot more about sex and herself to find ways to make it more mutually enjoyable for both of you.


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## Mylehigh

Marc878 said:


> There is no fixing this. You either continue as you are or get out.
> 
> At this time you have yourself trapped. The only one that can keep you where you are is you.


That sounds pretty real. :-/


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## StillSearching

Mylehigh said:


> That sounds pretty real. :-/


It is real!
Read "The Rational male" get started today!


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## Casual Observer

Consider couples counseling. NOW. Consider individual therapy as well. Consider that she's starting over from scratch; sex as infrequently as she's having it is going to be less than enjoyable, and might never be enjoyable for her from a conventional PIV standpoint (penis in vagina) but can probably be made a whole lot less painful. 

Her turning down lube is a really serious problem because it's telling you she doesn't want to be comfortable. She's put sex into a category of things past. That's not acceptable, but you've made it acceptable over the years by allowing sex to be so infrequent. 

In your mid-50s... wow... that is way way way way too early to be thinking your sex life, or her sex life, is over. I'm 63, my wife 62, and one of the odd things about a crisis we've recently gone through is that sex has become an almost every single day thing for the past two months. It used to be painful for my wife; it no longer is. It used to be "duty sex" but it's turned into part of a nightly ritual involving massage. Who knew she'd enjoy having her feet massaged? Says it feels like "walking on air." 

You've likely got some stuff in the closet that she hasn't wanted to talk about. That needs to be out in the open. You might need to create a crisis to get everything out. Heck, you don't need to create one; you already have one. It's not going to be fun. It either of you are conflict-avoidant, that person is going to try and crawl into a hole. You can't let that happen. Your kids are going to know something's amiss. Don't even try to hide it. You have no idea what sort of resentment she might be hiding. I certainly didn't before a couple months ago. Good luck.


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## Mylehigh

wilson said:


> Sorry to hear about your situation. You have a lot to cover, but I just wanted to address this one point. Likely she does love you, but it's an affectionless love. I'm sure there are many friends and relatives which you love but don't have any desire to be intimate with. I would guess she loves you more like a brother than a lover. So you guys are like older siblings raising the younger ones.
> 
> How is the rest of your relationship? Do you want to stay together for reasons other than the sex? A new relationship will be the quickest and easiest way to have passionate intimacy, but it will be much harder to have that new relationship last for decades.
> 
> You may need to lay everything out and say that while you love her and want to be together, the lack of true intimacy is crushing you emotionally. Ask her to explore the issue as to why she is so opposed to it. Perhaps even through a sex therapist. Even if she doesn't innately desire sex, she can learn a lot more about sex and herself to find ways to make it more mutually enjoyable for both of you.


I don't know if I am in the emotional state to be fair at this point, but I guess I'd say we share very few interests other than travel. Even that has become more difficult as she gets more and more picky with what she will eat, where we will stay (specific hotels), etc.

Also, she doesn't really enjoy talking about stuff other than family, or what I call OPB. Other people's business. Yawn! I don't give a crap about trivial details about other people. She gets annoyed if I start talking about something on TV while it is still on. Like a news story about something - I say, oh yeah, I've heard about this, I think blah blah blah and she'd rather not bother to talk and share ideas. She's just not that interested. Ugh!

Also, we fight a lot about perfectionist details when doing home remodeling work, which unfortunately we have done a lot of over the years and recently. She has to have everything in such a perfect state, we can never hire contractors so we have to labor over everything ourselves, only to tear things out and start over because the grout dried a little darker than she expected, or a line seems a little off in the middle of a tiled wall... it's exhausting and on the scale of our lives, really quite unimportant to me if the grout wasn't perfect.

Part of me lately just feels like I don't really like her very much anymore. But I think that's because I've been rejected for decades, and a guy can only take so much. If she would be close to me, I'd probably be a pretty happy person and like her again.


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## Clay2013

Go see a lawyer. Learn your rights. Find out exactly what you will need to divorce and what you will need to live on once the divorce is finalized. Take time out to really come to terms with that. The reason I say this is it will more than likely come to this and if you walk in and try to get her to fix this issue. She will need to see you are serious. If she feels or senses this will just be a argument like the past she will just do what she needs to do to shut you up. I wouldn't make any kind of threat to her unless you are going to follow through with it. I think the reason I am at this stance is because you have had this problem for years and she didn't take it seriously. So now you need to show her this is it if she doesn't take it seriously now. 


Good luck. 

C


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## Lila

Mylehigh said:


> Hi all,
> 
> New here today. Wanting to vent a little and see where it gets me.
> 
> Married for over 30 years. Three kids (D27, S24, S23). I ALWAYS put family first - never my job. My family was my identity and for over 20 years, fulfilled my sense of self-worth.
> 
> At the same time, I've always been the sole income provider and we have done well enough to live an upper-middle class life in an expensive part of the country. We paid for 100% of college expenses for our kids so they would graduate debt free (all of them have done so), we've been able to afford occasional world travel, we have nice home, we have savings for retirement, etc... So in other words, in addition to husband and father, I've had a business role in this family system that I've dutifully fulfilled, and it wasn't ever easy.
> 
> Now the kids are all grown, (mostly) happy, educated and highly functional people, and we are now 2x grandparents in our mid 50s.
> 
> The problem: my wife has very little interest in sex but I am and have always been very interested in sex (with her). It has been a problem throughout our marriage. For many many (many!!!) years, we used to make love about once a month, but that was pretty much only if we hit the 'cycle timing' just right, otherwise, no-go for another 4 (or even 8) weeks. That was NEVER enough for me, but we always played by her rules. Yes, I communicated with her about it, and sometimes we even fought about it. Fast-forward to now and she is now post-menopausal and cringes at my touch 90% of the time I try to touch her - and this is when we seem to be ready for some intimacy, I'm not just going for a fast grab in the kitchen... Sex is "uncomfortable" for her now due to dryness, but she doesn't seem to want to lube it up and give it a go unless I press the issue for days to weeks on end. She seems to be willing to give me manual relief, but that only goes so far. Yeah, she can eventually 'get me off' but that's not the intimacy I want.
> 
> I feel like we are drifting into a hopeless situation and I am resentful and feeling unloved. I believe if you really love someone you just plain want to be intimate with them. Period. So how can she love me and not want me to touch her?? I just can't get my head around that.
> 
> I've read books, given her the books to read, and tried to romance her and follow all the good husband rules, but all she wants to do is essentially co-grandparent and co-parent, talk about the kids, etc.
> 
> I want to be a strong, independent couple that thrives on each other as people (not just co-parents), a couple that craves each other and satisfies each other with authentic passion. I don't want to be in a marriage that is less than that. I tell her every day of her life that I love her. I tell her every day of her life that she is beautiful and that I find her very attractive (because she is). I compliment her clothing, her hair, her body, etc. but she is a real perfectionist and thinks she needs to lose weight even though I find her extremely sexy. Yeah - she is probably about 10 or 15 lbs over weight, but holy lord above, she is in her mid-50s. So I say, so what?!?! I am super fit due to active hobbies, and she is not and I think that bothers her. But she is NOT "fat" like she thinks she is. Obviously she has a pretty bad self image and that carries right on over to her intimacy issues.
> 
> Life is too short and I think I want out. But I don't want to hurt my kids. I feel so trapped and emotionally and physically unfulfilled.


It sounds like you are missing intimacy in your relationship beyond the sexual component. What does your ideal relationship look like? Removing sex from the picture, are you missing cuddling and general affection?

As far as sex goes, I think you need to first identify exactly what you want? Would you be happy if you could never have vaginal sex again but she willingly gave you hand jobs, oral, or used a fleshlight on you?


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## Mylehigh

Casual Observer said:


> Consider couples counseling. NOW. Consider individual therapy as well. Consider that she's starting over from scratch; sex as infrequently as she's having it is going to be less than enjoyable, and might never be enjoyable for her from a conventional PIV standpoint (penis in vagina) but can probably be made a whole lot less painful.
> 
> Her turning down lube is a really serious problem because it's telling you she doesn't want to be comfortable. She's put sex into a category of things past. That's not acceptable, but you've made it acceptable over the years by allowing sex to be so infrequent.
> 
> In your mid-50s... wow... that is way way way way too early to be thinking your sex life, or her sex life, is over. I'm 63, my wife 62, and one of the odd things about a crisis we've recently gone through is that sex has become an almost every single day thing for the past two months. It used to be painful for my wife; it no longer is. It used to be "duty sex" but it's turned into part of a nightly ritual involving massage. Who knew she'd enjoy having her feet massaged? Says it feels like "walking on air."
> 
> You've likely got some stuff in the closet that she hasn't wanted to talk about. That needs to be out in the open. You might need to create a crisis to get everything out. Heck, you don't need to create one; you already have one. It's not going to be fun. It either of you are conflict-avoidant, that person is going to try and crawl into a hole. You can't let that happen. Your kids are going to know something's amiss. Don't even try to hide it. You have no idea what sort of resentment she might be hiding. I certainly didn't before a couple months ago. Good luck.


Thanks for your reply - we are both in individual therapy and I asked her to go with me to see a sex therapist about 6 months ago. But you guessed it... got a pretty cold response and we never did it.

We agreed recently to see a marriage counselor but then we slipped back into a safety zone of cordial co-living, and never made an appointment. But I don't have a lot of faith it will help.


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## wilson

Mylehigh said:


> Thanks for your reply - we are both in individual therapy and I asked her to go with me to see a sex therapist about 6 months ago. But you guessed it... got a pretty cold response and we never did it.


Her time in IC could be counterproductive if she's not motivated to make herself enjoy intimacy more. It can sometimes be a place for her to strengthen her resolve against intimacy. I'm guessing her time in IC is spent getting validation on all the reasons she can't, shouldn't and won't have sex and what is wrong with you for being so focused on intimacy. Is her goal in therapy to "find ways to build a passionate relationship" or "find ways to deal with the stress and anguish of always being pressured to have sex."


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## Mylehigh

You raise some interesting questions! Thanks for your reply.

My ideal relationship would be one filled with intellectual connection (I grade this a C-), emotional connection (C-) and physical connection (F). Also a strong independence where we are not only 'complete' when we are together. We do sit together closely watching netflix a few nights a week, gentle massaging of hands, arms, legs, etc., but it only goes to sex if I remind her how long it's been. This is what I mean about 'authentic' passion. Not just duty.

As far as the actual sex, she does give me a handjob maybe about once every 10 days or so this past year, and sometimes (but not really that often), she at least acts like she is totally into it. Which then allows me to really enjoy it! I've told her it feels extra awesome if we lube it up a little for that, but she will only do that if I remind her mid-session. Buzz kill... I've also asked for oral and something like a fleshlight a number of times lately, but those requests are flatly refused so I've stopped asking. I've talked very openly with her that we could be creative in lots of ways, a little lube, a good spooning position without actual PIV... and she says, yes, I'd do that, but then never happens. What really gets me off the most sexually is pleasing her. And I guess I can only buy into the idea every now and then that she is truly being pleased giving me a handjob, but if she falls asleep with me in her hand and the task is unfinished, I guess I'm not buying it. LOL!


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## Mylehigh

wilson said:


> Her time in IC could be counterproductive if she's not motivated to make herself enjoy intimacy more. It can sometimes be a place for her to strengthen her resolve against intimacy. I'm guessing her time in IC is spent getting validation on all the reasons she can't, shouldn't and won't have sex and what is wrong with you for being so focused on intimacy. Is her goal in therapy to "find ways to build a passionate relationship" or "find ways to deal with the stress and anguish of always being pressured to have sex."


She went to help deal with her growing anxiety issues. So yeah, I wonder sometimes what they are doing in there...


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## Mylehigh

Clay2013 said:


> Go see a lawyer. Learn your rights. Find out exactly what you will need to divorce and what you will need to live on once the divorce is finalized. Take time out to really come to terms with that. The reason I say this is it will more than likely come to this and if you walk in and try to get her to fix this issue. She will need to see you are serious. If she feels or senses this will just be a argument like the past she will just do what she needs to do to shut you up. I wouldn't make any kind of threat to her unless you are going to follow through with it. I think the reason I am at this stance is because you have had this problem for years and she didn't take it seriously. So now you need to show her this is it if she doesn't take it seriously now.
> 
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> C


This is probably wise advice. It scares me though.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Mylehigh said:


> Hi all,
> 
> New here today. Wanting to vent a little and see where it gets me.
> 
> Married for over 30 years. Three kids (D27, S24, S23). I ALWAYS put family first - never my job. My family was my identity and for over 20 years, fulfilled my sense of self-worth.
> 
> At the same time, I've always been the sole income provider and we have done well enough to live an upper-middle class life in an expensive part of the country. We paid for 100% of college expenses for our kids so they would graduate debt free (all of them have done so), we've been able to afford occasional world travel, we have nice home, we have savings for retirement, etc... So in other words, in addition to husband and father, I've had a business role in this family system that I've dutifully fulfilled, and it wasn't ever easy.
> 
> Now the kids are all grown, (mostly) happy, educated and highly functional people, and we are now 2x grandparents in our mid 50s.
> 
> The problem: my wife has very little interest in sex but I am and have always been very interested in sex (with her). It has been a problem throughout our marriage. For many many (many!!!) years, we used to make love about once a month, but that was pretty much only if we hit the 'cycle timing' just right, otherwise, no-go for another 4 (or even 8) weeks. That was NEVER enough for me, but we always played by her rules. Yes, I communicated with her about it, and sometimes we even fought about it. Fast-forward to now and she is now post-menopausal and cringes at my touch 90% of the time I try to touch her - and this is when we seem to be ready for some intimacy, I'm not just going for a fast grab in the kitchen... Sex is "uncomfortable" for her now due to dryness, but she doesn't seem to want to lube it up and give it a go unless I press the issue for days to weeks on end. She seems to be willing to give me manual relief, but that only goes so far. Yeah, she can eventually 'get me off' but that's not the intimacy I want.
> 
> I feel like we are drifting into a hopeless situation and I am resentful and feeling unloved. I believe if you really love someone you just plain want to be intimate with them. Period. So how can she love me and not want me to touch her?? I just can't get my head around that.
> 
> I've read books, given her the books to read, and tried to romance her and follow all the good husband rules, but all she wants to do is essentially co-grandparent and co-parent, talk about the kids, etc.
> 
> I want to be a strong, independent couple that thrives on each other as people (not just co-parents), a couple that craves each other and satisfies each other with authentic passion. I don't want to be in a marriage that is less than that. I tell her every day of her life that I love her. I tell her every day of her life that she is beautiful and that I find her very attractive (because she is). I compliment her clothing, her hair, her body, etc. but she is a real perfectionist and thinks she needs to lose weight even though I find her extremely sexy. Yeah - she is probably about 10 or 15 lbs over weight, but holy lord above, she is in her mid-50s. So I say, so what?!?! I am super fit due to active hobbies, and she is not and I think that bothers her. But she is NOT "fat" like she thinks she is. Obviously she has a pretty bad self image and that carries right on over to her intimacy issues.
> 
> Life is too short and I think I want out. But I don't want to hurt my kids. I feel so trapped and emotionally and physically unfulfilled.


Like looking in a mirror here (three kids, ages, income & lifestyle, duration of marriage, and sexual mismatch having been a problem throughout, family orientation, compliments, etc---all practically identical). About the only difference between our situations is that my wife still wants sex, albeit infrequently. So when in the mood, she initiates and I do my best to respond. 

I wish I had an answer for you but given my relative lack of success improving this situation, despite having tried very, very hard for a very, very long time, I'm in no position to advise.

If you're like me, it's especially disappointing at this point since, up until now, you've probably had some glimmer of hope that things would improve. Now, being post-menopausal (at least in your wife's case, not all women emerge from menopause the same) with certain new physical limitations, even that last glimmer of hope has been snuffed out. What's worse, since she now has legitimate physical limitations, you have lost any moral basis for demanding more from her. 

The questions then are....
Can you live like this for the rest of your life? Do you want to?
Can you handle the resentment that comes from facing the fact that those 30 years are gone?
Can you justify (at least to yourself) kicking her to the curb based on a past that you chose to accept at the time and/or the current resentment and her relative inability to perform, even if that's now largely out of her control?

Lots to process there. I'm sure other poster will add things that will help you think through those questions.


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## Marc878

I don't think you realize your wife is good with the current relationship. 

She learned that you are too. Why? Because you've taught her you are.

All talk and zero actions get you the same thing you've always gotten and always will.

You are staying in this because you want to. No one can make you.

Until that changes you'll just get more of what you've gotten.

You can read all the books, attend therapy, buy her flowers and cards, etc and it won't get you a thing.


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## Lila

Mylehigh said:


> You raise some interesting questions! Thanks for your reply.
> 
> My ideal relationship would be one filled with intellectual connection (I grade this a C-), emotional connection (C-) and physical connection (F). Also a strong independence where we are not only 'complete' when we are together. We do sit together closely watching netflix a few nights a week, gentle massaging of hands, arms, legs, etc., but it only goes to sex if I remind her how long it's been. This is what I mean about 'authentic' passion. Not just duty.
> 
> As far as the actual sex, she does give me a handjob maybe about once every 10 days or so this past year, and sometimes (but not really that often), she at least acts like she is totally into it. Which then allows me to really enjoy it! I've told her it feels extra awesome if we lube it up a little for that, but she will only do that if I remind her mid-session. Buzz kill... I've also asked for oral and something like a fleshlight a number of times lately, but those requests are flatly refused so I've stopped asking. I've talked very openly with her that we could be creative in lots of ways, a little lube, a good spooning position without actual PIV... and she says, yes, I'd do that, but then never happens. *What really gets me off the most sexually is pleasing her. *And I guess I can only buy into the idea every now and then that she is truly being pleased giving me a handjob, but if she falls asleep with me in her hand and the task is unfinished, I guess I'm not buying it. LOL!


I think you need to rethink your strategy with this a little bit. A lot of post menopausal women do not get pleasure from the act of sex. They do it to satisfy the needs of their partners. Is she giving you a hand job grudgingly or is she willingly doing it? She may not feel pleasure from giving you a hand job but maybe she's content in meeting your needs.


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## Mylehigh

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The questions then are....
> Can you live like this for the rest of your life? Do you want to?
> Can you handle the resentment that comes from facing the fact that those 30 years are gone?
> Can you justify (at least to yourself) kicking her to the curb based on a past that you chose to accept at the time and/or the current resentment and her relative inability to perform, even if that's now largely out of her control?
> 
> Lots to process there. I'm sure other poster will add things that will help you think through those questions.


I guess I am not alone! In fairness it's not that she NEVER wants sex with me, but if left up to her, probably every 60 days or so would be aok by her.

I don't want to live the rest of my life like this but have become so programmed to put my family/kids first, I feel like I am stuck without choice. 

I didn't lose 30 years because my kids are pretty awesome.

I feel like she kicked me to the curb and it's her way or the highway. She is so used to getting her way that I think she loses sight of what it would be like to live our lives together any other way.


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## Mylehigh

Lila said:


> I think you need to rethink your strategy with this a little bit. A lot of post menopausal women do not get pleasure from the act of sex. They do it to satisfy the needs of their partners. Is she giving you a hand job grudgingly or is she willingly doing it? She may not feel pleasure from giving you a hand job but maybe she's content in meeting your needs.


I don't think she does it grudgingly, she initiates it but 99% of the time does so in response to my reminders that it's been a while... or, hey, look what I woke up with... I do think she is content in meeting my most primal needs, but just doesn't do a very good job at it. I mean - only when nagged and not often enough.

My real needs are what I told you in the other part of my reply - a really deep emotional connection is very important to me, and 30+ years has taught me that when the sex ain't there, the deep emotional connection ain't there either. On both sides.


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## Mylehigh

Marc878 said:


> I don't think you realize your wife is good with the current relationship.
> 
> She learned that you are too. Why? Because you've taught her you are.
> 
> All talk and zero actions get you the same thing you've always gotten and always will.
> 
> You are staying in this because you want to. No one can make you.
> 
> Until that changes you'll just get more of what you've gotten.
> 
> You can read all the books, attend therapy, buy her flowers and cards, etc and it won't get you a thing.


The truth is hard to face sometimes. I can't argue with what you say.


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## wilson

It sounds like the major reason you want to stay together is because you've been together so long, but I'm not sure that's going to be enough. Fixing intimacy is extremely difficult. Without something compelling like an otherwise excellent relationship, young kids, or something else extremely substantial, I'm not sure it's worth putting a lot of effort into. Even if the sex is fixed, the rest of your relationship seems to be lacking as well. From what you've described of yourself, I'm guessing you could have a handful of women in no time that you would have a lot more fun with both in and out of the bedroom. 

I think your best strategy is to get the divorce paperwork together and tell her you're walking out the door unless she makes meaningful and substantial effort and changes to improving intimacy. An occasional handjob won't cut it any more. You want to stay together, but only if true intimacy can be achieved. If it can't, then it's time to move on.


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## Marc878

Meh, she is who she is. D might cause her to put in some short term effort but that won't last.


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## Casual Observer

Mylehigh said:


> As far as the actual sex, she does give me a handjob maybe about once every 10 days or so this past year, and sometimes (but not really that often), she at least acts like she is totally into it. Which then allows me to really enjoy it! I've told her it feels extra awesome if we lube it up a little for that, but she will only do that if I remind her mid-session. Buzz kill...


Your apparent reluctance to request, insist if need be, that she start with lube from the beginning is... puzzling. Sure, the first couple of times you request that it might lead to a confrontation and things go south, but sooner than later she's going to be made to understand that something as insignificant as requesting lube at the start shouldn't be the type of thing that throws rocks through the windows of your relationship.

Part of me thinks it's time for you to stand up here and, well, be a man. It's such a little thing (lube) for her to have to do, and letting it become a buzz-kill in the middle of the act, well, that's on you, not her. It shouldn't get to the middle of the act. This is a good place to draw a line in the sand. She knows what a dry vagina feels like. Not much of a leap to understand what a dry penis feels like.

OK, if you really don't want to confront, use coconut oil as a massage on her. Massage her hands with it. And then let her do the hand job.


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## Mylehigh

Casual Observer said:


> Your apparent reluctance to request, insist if need be, that she start with lube from the beginning is... puzzling. Sure, the first couple of times you request that it might lead to a confrontation and things go south, but sooner than later she's going to be made to understand that something as insignificant as requesting lube at the start shouldn't be the type of thing that throws rocks through the windows of your relationship.
> 
> Part of me thinks it's time for you to stand up here and, well, be a man. It's such a little thing (lube) for her to have to do, and letting it become a buzz-kill in the middle of the act, well, that's on you, not her. It shouldn't get to the middle of the act. This is a good place to draw a line in the sand. She knows what a dry vagina feels like. Not much of a leap to understand what a dry penis feels like.
> 
> OK, if you really don't want to confront, use coconut oil as a massage on her. Massage her hands with it. And then let her do the hand job.


I know you can only go by the words I wrote there... but it isn't like the 'buzz kill' means boner kill and no more fun for the night. It just means that, to me, I wish I didn't have to ask for it. Every single time she has used it, it was because I said, can we put some of this on?? I want her to be thinking about how to make it good for me, not just complying. And there is a difference there.

But you are right that it is time for me to step up a bit. I've thought about buying something like a fleshlight to use on me, but I've just been a little uncomfortable going there. "Hey honey, will you jack me off with this?" feels a lot different than the love-making intimacy that I really want.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Mylehigh said:


> I know you can only go by the words I wrote there... but it isn't like the 'buzz kill' means boner kill and no more fun for the night. It just means that, to me, I wish I didn't have to ask for it. Every single time she has used it, it was because I said, can we put some of this on?? I want her to be thinking about how to make it good for me, not just complying. And there is a difference there.
> 
> But you are right that it is time for me to step up a bit. I've thought about buying something like a fleshlight to use on me, but I've just been a little uncomfortable going there. "Hey honey, will you jack me off with this?" feels a lot different than the love-making intimacy that I really want.


Interestingly, my wife did once acquire such a toy for me. It wasn't planned.... my SIL did a sort of Tupperware party type gig but with sex toys. My wife really didn't want to go as that's not her thing, but she went just out of a sort of family obligation thing. She did come home with a sleeve device that proved to be very effective in getting the job done. Ironically, she seemed to get into it more... sliding it on, trying different angles, different strokes, etc. So her greater level of enthusiasm relative to a simple HJ more than compensated for the loss of direct touch and in the end I think added to the emotional bond that came from doing that once in a while. At least for a while, it made things kind of fun for her, which made it fun for me and more importantly, us as a unit. 

Of course, this is no prediction as to how your wife might approach/respond to such a thing.


----------



## BluesPower

Mylehigh said:


> That sounds pretty real. :-/


While many will write a lot of niceties about how you can "win back your wife" and all of that bull****, it rarely works...

What Marc wrote is the basic unvarnished truth.

If you want a sex life, you divorce or she allows you to see other people.

It is about that simple.

She lost her sexual attraction to you years ago if she ever had one at all. It sucks to find this out at this point.

Frankly, you should have never allowed it to get like this in the first place, but apparently a lot of guys do, don't ask me why...

It sucks but you have a clear choice, basically divorce or misery...


----------



## Lila

@Mylehigh the question i ask people when considering divorce is do you think you'd be happier alone than married to your wife? There are no guarantees of anything after divorce except for possible opportunities.


----------



## Casual Observer

Lila said:


> @Bixby62 the question i ask people when considering divorce is do you think you'd be happier alone than married to your wife? There are no guarantees of anything after divorce except for possible opportunities.


As well as self-determination. You are now in control of the rest of your life; can't blame things on someone else. But if someone wasn't willing to take control before, it could be a recipe for disaster when on their own maybe?


----------



## Lila

Casual Observer said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Bixby62 the question i ask people when considering divorce is do you think you'd be happier alone than married to your wife? There are no guarantees of anything after divorce except for possible opportunities.
> 
> 
> 
> As well as self-determination. You are now in control of the rest of your life; can't blame things on someone else. But if someone wasn't willing to take control before, it could be a recipe for disaster when on their own maybe?
Click to expand...

Absolutely.


----------



## jlg07

Mylehigh said:


> I don't know if I am in the emotional state to be fair at this point, but I guess I'd say we share very few interests other than travel. Even that has become more difficult as she gets more and more picky with what she will eat, where we will stay (specific hotels), etc.
> 
> Also, she doesn't really enjoy talking about stuff other than family, or what I call OPB. Other people's business. Yawn! I don't give a crap about trivial details about other people. She gets annoyed if I start talking about something on TV while it is still on. Like a news story about something - I say, oh yeah, I've heard about this, I think blah blah blah and she'd rather not bother to talk and share ideas. She's just not that interested. Ugh!
> 
> Also, we fight a lot about perfectionist details when doing home remodeling work, which unfortunately we have done a lot of over the years and recently. She has to have everything in such a perfect state, we can never hire contractors so we have to labor over everything ourselves, only to tear things out and start over because the grout dried a little darker than she expected, or a line seems a little off in the middle of a tiled wall... it's exhausting and on the scale of our lives, really quite unimportant to me if the grout wasn't perfect.
> 
> Part of me lately just feels like I don't really like her very much anymore. But I think that's because I've been rejected for decades, and a guy can only take so much. If she would be close to me, I'd probably be a pretty happy person and like her again.


There seems to be WAY more going on here than just not wanting to have sex. You don't seem to have all that much to discuss together, very different interests, she nitpicks when you do projects, all on top of lack of sex. There just seems to be an overall lack of closeness here -- that's where you need to address things I think.

Also, just FYI -- coconut oil works GREAT. Instead of waiting until you are going to have PIV, just grab a handful and start working on HER for a while. That way you won't have the boner-killer moment in the middle....


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Lack of closeness

Lack of sex

Horse and Cart? 

or 

Chicken and Egg?


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Mylehigh said:


> Hi all,
> 
> New here today. Wanting to vent a little and see where it gets me.
> 
> Married for over 30 years. Three kids (D27, S24, S23). I ALWAYS put family first - never my job. My family was my identity and for over 20 years, fulfilled my sense of self-worth.
> 
> At the same time, I've always been the sole income provider and we have done well enough to live an upper-middle class life in an expensive part of the country. We paid for 100% of college expenses for our kids so they would graduate debt free (all of them have done so), we've been able to afford occasional world travel, we have nice home, we have savings for retirement, etc... So in other words, in addition to husband and father, I've had a business role in this family system that I've dutifully fulfilled, and it wasn't ever easy.
> 
> Now the kids are all grown, (mostly) happy, educated and highly functional people, and we are now 2x grandparents in our mid 50s.
> 
> The problem: my wife has very little interest in sex but I am and have always been very interested in sex (with her). It has been a problem throughout our marriage. For many many (many!!!) years, we used to make love about once a month, but that was pretty much only if we hit the 'cycle timing' just right, otherwise, no-go for another 4 (or even 8) weeks. That was NEVER enough for me, but we always played by her rules. Yes, I communicated with her about it, and sometimes we even fought about it. Fast-forward to now and she is now post-menopausal and cringes at my touch 90% of the time I try to touch her - and this is when we seem to be ready for some intimacy, I'm not just going for a fast grab in the kitchen... Sex is "uncomfortable" for her now due to dryness, but she doesn't seem to want to lube it up and give it a go unless I press the issue for days to weeks on end. She seems to be willing to give me manual relief, but that only goes so far. Yeah, she can eventually 'get me off' but that's not the intimacy I want.
> 
> I feel like we are drifting into a hopeless situation and I am resentful and feeling unloved. I believe if you really love someone you just plain want to be intimate with them. Period. So how can she love me and not want me to touch her?? I just can't get my head around that.
> 
> I've read books, given her the books to read, and tried to romance her and follow all the good husband rules, but all she wants to do is essentially co-grandparent and co-parent, talk about the kids, etc.
> 
> I want to be a strong, independent couple that thrives on each other as people (not just co-parents), a couple that craves each other and satisfies each other with authentic passion. I don't want to be in a marriage that is less than that. I tell her every day of her life that I love her. I tell her every day of her life that she is beautiful and that I find her very attractive (because she is). I compliment her clothing, her hair, her body, etc. but she is a real perfectionist and thinks she needs to lose weight even though I find her extremely sexy. Yeah - she is probably about 10 or 15 lbs over weight, but holy lord above, she is in her mid-50s. So I say, so what?!?! I am super fit due to active hobbies, and she is not and I think that bothers her. But she is NOT "fat" like she thinks she is. Obviously she has a pretty bad self image and that carries right on over to her intimacy issues.
> 
> Life is too short and I think I want out. But I don't want to hurt my kids. I feel so trapped and emotionally and physically unfulfilled.


I haven't read all the posts but wanted to say fir now, imho you've outlined everything that's normal and should be part of a great marriage, no unreasonable expectations.

The why of why W doesn't appear as invested still to come out, maybe will be in other posts.

But don't start thinking this is all your fault. Some husbands do, and many many times it's very much not the case.


----------



## Casual Observer

jlg07 said:


> There seems to be WAY more going on here than just not wanting to have sex. You don't seem to have all that much to discuss together, very different interests, she nitpicks when you do projects, all on top of lack of sex. There just seems to be an overall lack of closeness here -- that's where you need to address things I think.
> 
> Also, just FYI -- coconut oil works GREAT. Instead of waiting until you are going to have PIV, just grab a handful and start working on HER for a while. That way you won't have the boner-killer moment in the middle....


Yes, coconut oil is amazing stuff. The only issue for my wife and I is that she doesn't like the way it feels when she's trying to sleep. It doesn't disappear like more-conventional lotions. I'm thinking it best for those times when practical to take a shower afterward. But isn't the point to a massage to relax and drift off into sleep afterward?

By the way, it was the book "Awaken Love" that turned us on (so to speak, but literally and figuratively) to coconut oil.


----------



## personofinterest

Lila said:


> I think you need to rethink your strategy with this a little bit. A lot of post menopausal women do not get pleasure from the act of sex. They do it to satisfy the needs of their partners. Is she giving you a hand job grudgingly or is she willingly doing it? She may not feel pleasure from giving you a hand job but maybe she's content in meeting your needs.


I'm gonna say a big nope here. Most of my friends are post menopausal. I am post menopausal. Yeah, sometimes I need lube, but I still CRAVE sex. Every one of my friends but one still enjoys sex. Heck, my own parents had a regular sex life until my dad became so ill it was impossible.

I believe a small number of women may actually have no recourse after menopause. I believe most of the ones who say they can't have sex after menopause use it as an out for something they don't want ot do anyway. Science being what it is, unless someone has more severe symptoms of menopause than I typically her of, there IS a way to stay intimate with the spouse you claim to love.


----------



## Mylehigh

personofinterest said:


> I'm gonna say a big nope here. Most of my friends are post menopausal. I am post menopausal. Yeah, sometimes I need lube, but I still CRAVE sex. Every one of my friends but one still enjoys sex. Heck, my own parents had a regular sex life until my dad became so ill it was impossible.
> 
> I believe a small number of women may actually have no recourse after menopause. I believe most of the ones who say they can't have sex after menopause use it as an out for something they don't want ot do anyway. Science being what it is, unless someone has more severe symptoms of menopause than I typically her of, there IS a way to stay intimate with the spouse you claim to love.


Yeah I hate to say it out loud, but I think you are right. She just doesn't want to and she uses excuses.

Some may wonder at this point, so maybe ole' Bixby62 is a bit of an ugly chump and she just isn't attracted to him because he let himself go and has the face of a hound. A little awkward to say about myself, but I'm actually a pretty attractive guy and like I said in initial post, I stay very fit. My body is very willing and able to do the deed at a high level, and I am a very generous lover. I just don't know what to do to get her into me. I think she is pretty sexually repressed. She is too shy to give me oral sex and doesn't want it from me either. She's always been more of a missionary kind of gal, but when I have been able to flip her over or on top, she actually would get into it. I just rarely get the chance to make her feel good like that because she is so restrictive. 

Typing all this out is making me mad. My sex life sucks and my wife doesn't ever stick with 'fixing' it. I'm just so damn sick of it.


----------



## Lila

Mylehigh said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm gonna say a big nope here. Most of my friends are post menopausal. I am post menopausal. Yeah, sometimes I need lube, but I still CRAVE sex. Every one of my friends but one still enjoys sex. Heck, my own parents had a regular sex life until my dad became so ill it was impossible.
> 
> I believe a small number of women may actually have no recourse after menopause. I believe most of the ones who say they can't have sex after menopause use it as an out for something they don't want ot do anyway. Science being what it is, unless someone has more severe symptoms of menopause than I typically her of, there IS a way to stay intimate with the spouse you claim to love.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I hate to say it out loud, but I think you are right. She just doesn't want to and she uses excuses.
> 
> Some may wonder at this point, so maybe ole' Bixby62 is a bit of an ugly chump and she just isn't attracted to him because he let himself go and has the face of a hound. A little awkward to say about myself, but I'm actually a pretty attractive guy and like I said in initial post, I stay very fit. My body is very willing and able to do the deed at a high level, and I am a very generous lover. I just don't know what to do to get her into me. I think she is pretty sexually repressed. She is too shy to give me oral sex and doesn't want it from me either. She's always been more of a missionary kind of gal, but when I have been able to flip her over or on top, she actually would get into it. I just rarely get the chance to make her feel good like that because she is so restrictive.
> 
> Typing all this out is making me mad. My sex life sucks and my wife doesn't ever stick with 'fixing' it. I'm just so damn sick of it.
Click to expand...

So then the question really is are you happier alone than with her?


----------



## Lila

personofinterest said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you need to rethink your strategy with this a little bit. A lot of post menopausal women do not get pleasure from the act of sex. They do it to satisfy the needs of their partners. Is she giving you a hand job grudgingly or is she willingly doing it? She may not feel pleasure from giving you a hand job but maybe she's content in meeting your needs.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm gonna say a big nope here. Most of my friends are post menopausal. I am post menopausal. Yeah, sometimes I need lube, but I still CRAVE sex. Every one of my friends but one still enjoys sex. Heck, my own parents had a regular sex life until my dad became so ill it was impossible.
> 
> I believe a small number of women may actually have no recourse after menopause. I believe most of the ones who say they can't have sex after menopause use it as an out for something they don't want ot do anyway. Science being what it is, unless someone has more severe symptoms of menopause than I typically her of, there IS a way to stay intimate with the spouse you claim to love.
Click to expand...

That's great. I'm happy to hear you and your friends are like that. I wish that was my experience. Most of mine are not. Antidotal evidence aside, I agree that someone who wants to stay connected with their spouse will be creative in how they do it even if vaginal sex is not possible.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Mylehigh said:


> Yeah I hate to say it out loud, but I think you are right. She just doesn't want to and she uses excuses.
> 
> Some may wonder at this point, so maybe ole' Bixby62 is a bit of an ugly chump and she just isn't attracted to him because he let himself go and has the face of a hound. A little awkward to say about myself, but I'm actually a pretty attractive guy and like I said in initial post, I* stay very fit. My body is very willing and able to do the deed at a high level, and I am a very generous lover.* I just don't know what to do to get her into me. I* think she is pretty sexually repressed. She is too shy to give me oral sex and doesn't want it from me either. She's always been more of a missionary kind of gal, but when I have been able to flip her over or on top, she actually would get into it. I just rarely get the chance to make her feel good like that because she is so restrictive. *
> 
> Typing all this out is making me mad. My sex life sucks and my wife doesn't ever stick with 'fixing' it. I'm just so damn sick of it.


Brother, My Brother!

Sorry, that's no help, but I just again have to say you're not alone. Although she won't say it overtly, my wife seems to think of sex as a reproduction oriented activity and is pretty repressed about doing it just for the fun of it. It does overcome her from time to time and she has a good time, but day to day, she keeps herself wrapped up pretty tight. No matter how many times she enjoys it, she always falls back on some sort of reproduction oriented thought. Menopause can really put the final nail in the sex coffin if that's the case. It's like once the body can no longer reproduce, what little desire there was dissipates entirely. 

The sad fact is there may be nothing you can "do to get her into" you. Sounds very, very likely. If it's not there, it's not there.


----------



## wilson

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The sad fact is there may be nothing you can "do to get her into" you. Sounds very, very likely. If it's not there, it's not there.


I think what is often the marriage killer in these situations is that the low drive spouse does absolutely nothing to improve the situation. I'm sure you'd feel differently if she was looking into romantic marriage retreats, had a stack of self-help books on her nightstand, or anything else that showed she was motivated to make the best of the situation. But when 100% of the responsibility to fix the problem falls on you, it is essentially hopeless. She gets to sit back as you propose solution after solution that leads to failure after failure. If instead she was coming up with solutions, I'm sure you'd be much more hopeful about the future.


----------



## Diana7

I think you need to think carefully about the consequences and reprucussions of ending your marriage. It will deeply affect your children and will change the whole dynamics of your relationships with them and the grandchildren. They may even not want to see you again if they feel you are abandoning your wife, their mother. 

IF you want to stay, then book some MC and state that you are both going. Tell her that this can't go on and how deeply unhappy you are. Don't take no for any answer. If you want to go then nothing we say will change that. Maybe you are hoping to find another woman who is all you want, you wont. Everyone in their middle age has baggage and issues, that's life. You may well end up alone and lonely.


----------



## Casual Observer

personofinterest said:


> I'm gonna say a big nope here. Most of my friends are post menopausal. I am post menopausal. Yeah, sometimes I need lube, but I still CRAVE sex. Every one of my friends but one still enjoys sex. Heck, my own parents had a regular sex life until my dad became so ill it was impossible.
> 
> I believe a small number of women may actually have no recourse after menopause. I believe most of the ones who say they can't have sex after menopause use it as an out for something they don't want ot do anyway. Science being what it is, unless someone has more severe symptoms of menopause than I typically her of, there IS a way to stay intimate with the spouse you claim to love.


In other words, if you want to stay intimate, you'll find a way. But I think it's easy to drift away from things we used to think were important, especially when there might have been a gradual trend towards that (less sex) over time, and then menopause hits, and it's like yeah, that part of my life's over, what's wrong with my husband not getting this?

I understand the role hormones play, but if getting old means a complete lack of desire and anticipation, count me out of that relationship. Male or female, I think the higher-drive person often helps enable to LD person to remain LD by letting things slide, thinking that's just the way it is, there's so much else about the person to love, and worst of all, momentum. You let momentum rule the day. It just becomes the way things are, until there's a real crisis of some sort and the person who's lost desire has to confront what life without the love of their life might really mean.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Diana7 said:


> I think you need to think carefully about the consequences and reprucussions of ending your marriage. It will deeply affect your children and will change the whole dynamics of your relationships with them and the grandchildren. They may even not want to see you again if they feel you are abandoning your wife, their mother.
> 
> IF you want to stay, then book some MC and state that you are both going. Tell her that this can't go on and how deeply unhappy you are. Don't take no for any answer. If you want to go then nothing we say will change that. *Maybe you are hoping to find another woman who is all you want, you wont. Everyone in their middle age has baggage and issues, that's life. You may well end up alone and lonely.*


I think that's why @Lila presented the question as 

"So then the question really is are you happier alone than with her?"


----------



## Casual Observer

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I think that's why @Lila presented the question as
> 
> "So then the question really is are you happier alone than with her?"


Isn't that a question that should be posed to his wife first? Because that will lead to the "why" and the consequences of continuing with things as they are. For him, there are questions about how his future might play out without her. For her, I think the differences are more tangible. But if it turns out she can live without him, that's a pretty obvious message to him that nothing is going to change and it's time to leave.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Casual Observer said:


> Isn't that a question that should be posed to his wife first? Because that will lead to the "why" and the consequences of continuing with things as they are. For him, there are questions about how his future might play out without her. For her, I think the differences are more tangible. But if it turns out she can live without him, that's a pretty obvious message to him that nothing is going to change and it's time to leave.


Yes, that is also an important data point. 

But it is limited in its applicability. 

It's highly likely she would say she's happier with him than without him. 

So the natural follow up is "what is she willing to do do keep the union together?" Maybe when faced with the prospect of being left, she'd increase her willingness to work at improving sexual frequency and variety. 

But if she's doing it out of fear or as the result of coercion, it will not improve the emotional bond that is supposed to accompany a sexual relationship. See, the thing is, she can force herself to participate in a mechanical act, but she can not force herself to learn to like something she doesn't like any more than you can force your kid to like beets and brussels sprouts. 

Obligatory sex can be worse than no sex at all.


----------



## wilson

Casual Observer said:


> Isn't that a question that should be posed to his wife first?


Although the question to her would have to be "Would you be happier living with me in a passionate relationship or living alone?" I'm sure she's very happy living with him in the current situation. She'll have to realize that's no longer an option. The two options are be in a passionate relationship or be alone.


----------



## Openminded

There are many women like your wife. Lots of things factor into why they are that way. What it comes down to is whether they are willing to work to improve the situation. Some will but many won't. If your wife isn't willing to put the work in then you are faced with a choice. In your situation, many men stay but there are some who don't. You'll have to decide which one you are.


----------



## OnTheFly

Mylehigh said:


> I've told her it feels extra awesome if we lube it up a little for that, but she will only do that if I remind her mid-session. Buzz kill...


Been there, and still there sometimes...with this behaviour.

I liken it to asking a teenager to do the dishes and they think if they do a crappy job, you'll stop asking them to do it. 

It's an attitude problem....very hard to address or fix.

On a side note, try introducing coconut oil as the lube (if you are already, ignore). It lasts forever, is a pure, natural product, and is great for skin care.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Bixby62 said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm gonna say a big nope here. Most of my friends are post menopausal. I am post menopausal. Yeah, sometimes I need lube, but I still CRAVE sex. Every one of my friends but one still enjoys sex. Heck, my own parents had a regular sex life until my dad became so ill it was impossible.
> 
> I believe a small number of women may actually have no recourse after menopause. I believe most of the ones who say they can't have sex after menopause use it as an out for something they don't want ot do anyway. Science being what it is, unless someone has more severe symptoms of menopause than I typically her of, there IS a way to stay intimate with the spouse you claim to love.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I hate to say it out loud, but I think you are right. She just doesn't want to and she uses excuses.
> 
> Some may wonder at this point, so maybe ole' Bixby62 is a bit of an ugly chump and she just isn't attracted to him because he let himself go and has the face of a hound. A little awkward to say about myself, but I'm actually a pretty attractive guy and like I said in initial post, I stay very fit. My body is very willing and able to do the deed at a high level, and I am a very generous lover. I just don't know what to do to get her into me. I think she is pretty sexually repressed. She is too shy to give me oral sex and doesn't want it from me either. She's always been more of a missionary kind of gal, but when I have been able to flip her over or on top, she actually would get into it. I just rarely get the chance to make her feel good like that because she is so restrictive.
> 
> Typing all this out is making me mad. My sex life sucks and my wife doesn't ever stick with 'fixing' it. I'm just so damn sick of it.
Click to expand...

It’s good for you to get in touch with your real feelings. You feel that you’ve been a great husband and she has not been a great wife. For the time being just let yourself be in touch with these feelings and don’t worry about her feelings.

I’m saying this because you are probably talking yourself out of your own feelings with her voice in your head. By hearing her in your head say things over the years to assuage you or to flip the tables on you to make you feel like a perv for just wanting a loving sex life with your wife.

Go to individual counseling and explore these feelings. And get advice from the counselor about what direction your feelings actually go.

Try to remain indifferent to her with regards to this process for now. Like don’t make it in your mind about her, what she wants, what she thinks, or the past with her. Just leave her out of it and explore what is in your heart and mind.

You need to be allowed to have these feelings of sadness and regret for the years lost. Your feelings are valid. You have to work to validate them in yourself so that you can work past anger and resentment. To do this you have to ignore how she feels about your feelings, for now. 

Work on this and find out what you really want. Then work with your counselor on a plan to get that. Your ultimate journey may be to leave and seek another partner. But you don’t know that yet.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

Sometimes reading another woman's thoughts may make better progress with your wife than discussing it yourself.

https://forgivenwife.com/new-to-this-blog-start-here/understanding-your-husbands-hurt/


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> Sometimes reading another woman's thoughts may make better progress with your wife than discussing it yourself.
> 
> https://forgivenwife.com/new-to-this-blog-start-here/understanding-your-husbands-hurt/


Wow. I wish I had read this a decade or more ago. That is my voice in some of those posts. 

I wish I had had exactly those words to share, but my determination to not be needy mased it all. Two letters in particular are particularly reflective.

_ I am wanted by my wife only when her hormones dictate, and even then, only for her physical release. Any other attempts at intimacy are disregarded with such a cavalier attitude, it would astonish you. When her needs arise, she knows she has a willing participant, and that is all that matters to her. My desire to woo my wife or seduce her is completely diminished due to the constant rejection I have faced over the years.

It has caused me to battle bitterness, envy, jealousy (of husbands who have wives who actually want them) and even struggle with pornography for the first time in my life. While I am ultimately responsible for my sinful actions, I do believe her refusal is what opened my heart to attack in these areas. In marriage, we are supposed to have each other’s back. By refusing to share intimacy with me, my wife has opened me up to all sorts of attack from the enemy that I never would have faced had she not severed that bond. Now, I am left with the guilt of my actions and the inability to effect change.

*and*


Total and utter rejection – to have someone who knows you more deeply and completely than anyone else on the planet, some one (the only one) who you have bared the deepest most intimate parts of yourself to, someone you have saved yourself for, someone who you chose above all others and have been faithful to – even when there have been many opportunities and offers to cheat (without consequences) – to have this person then turn their back on you and constantly reject you – the deepest, most sensitive parts of you – over and over again – well there aren’t words to express the deep, deep pain, devastation and hollowness that crushes me every moment of every day. _

Gawd, I was slow on the uptake and both two proud and too willing to sacrifice for my own good.


----------



## farsidejunky

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Yes, that is also an important data point.
> 
> 
> 
> But it is limited in its applicability.
> 
> 
> 
> It's highly likely she would say she's happier with him than without him.
> 
> 
> 
> So the natural follow up is "what is she willing to do do keep the union together?" Maybe when faced with the prospect of being left, she'd increase her willingness to work at improving sexual frequency and variety.
> 
> 
> 
> But if she's doing it out of fear or as the result of coercion, it will not improve the emotional bond that is supposed to accompany a sexual relationship. See, the thing is, she can force herself to participate in a mechanical act, but she can not force herself to learn to like something she doesn't like any more than you can force your kid to like beets and brussels sprouts.
> 
> 
> 
> Obligatory sex can be worse than no sex at all.


No question it is worse.

It builds resentment...for the LD, who doesn't want to do it...and the HD, for accepting something that on a primal level they know they shouldn't. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Marc878

Lila said:


> So then the question really is are you happier alone than with her?


I doubt he would be alone long. As long as you stay in this you won't be able to find Mrs Right.


----------



## Lila

Marc878 said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> So then the question really is are you happier alone than with her?
> 
> 
> 
> *I doubt he would be alone long*. As long as you stay in this you won't be able to find Mrs Right.
Click to expand...

There's no sense giving OP false hope. He may find that special someone but then again he may not. I'm not suggesting he should stick to his marriage if he's miserable. What I am saying is he should not consider leaving in search of greener pastures. 

After divorce there are no guarantees when it comes to Mrs Right. Yes the doors will open to him to seek out other women, who may be more compatible with him sexually, but that search may or may not result in Mrs. Right. And the search can be exhausting and in some cases depressing. 

The worse thing that can happen is he leaves his wife in search of greener pastures and realizes too late that the grass is not greener, just different. 
Each with unique sets of problems and as @Diana7 said "baggage". 

The happiest divorced men (and women) I know are the ones who are perfectly content being alone. They aren't actively seeking out a partner for intimacy but instead focus on themselves. If their life path happens to come across someone special, then great. If not, no big deal. 

That's what I mean by "he should leave his marriage when he is happier alone than with his wife". It's not that he's going to miserable single vs his current marriage. It's that his happiness should not be dependant upon finding another woman.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Lila said:


> There's no sense giving OP false hope. He may find that special someone but then again he may not. I'm not suggesting he should stick to his marriage if he's miserable. What I am saying is he should not consider leaving in search of greener pastures.
> 
> After divorce there are no guarantees when it comes to Mrs Right. Yes the doors will open to him to seek out other women, who may be more compatible with him sexually, but that search may or may not result in Mrs. Right. And the search can be exhausting and in some cases depressing.
> 
> The worse thing that can happen is he leaves his wife in search of greener pastures and realizes too late that the grass is not greener, just different.
> Each with unique sets of problems and as @Diana7 said "baggage".
> 
> The happiest divorced men (and women) I know are the ones who are perfectly content being alone. They aren't actively seeking out a partner for intimacy but instead focus on themselves. If their life path happens to come across someone special, then great. If not, no big deal.
> 
> That's what I mean by "he should leave his marriage when he is happier alone than with his wife". It's not that he's going to miserable single vs his current marriage. It's that his happiness should not be dependant upon finding another woman.


Very well explained.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Marc878 said:


> I doubt he would be alone long. As long as you stay in this you won't be able to find Mrs Right.


I mentioned this before,but sounds like you're a good H.

Don't let her take you to the darks side, ie convincing you it's all your fault.


----------



## Mylehigh

Faithful Wife said:


> It’s good for you to get in touch with your real feelings. You feel that you’ve been a great husband and she has not been a great wife. For the time being just let yourself be in touch with these feelings and don’t worry about her feelings.
> 
> I’m saying this because you are probably talking yourself out of your own feelings with her voice in your head. By hearing her in your head say things over the years to assuage you or to flip the tables on you to make you feel like a perv for just wanting a loving sex life with your wife.
> 
> Go to individual counseling and explore these feelings. And get advice from the counselor about what direction your feelings actually go.
> 
> Try to remain indifferent to her with regards to this process for now. Like don’t make it in your mind about her, what she wants, what she thinks, or the past with her. Just leave her out of it and explore what is in your heart and mind.
> 
> You need to be allowed to have these feelings of sadness and regret for the years lost. Your feelings are valid. You have to work to validate them in yourself so that you can work past anger and resentment. To do this you have to ignore how she feels about your feelings, for now.
> 
> Work on this and find out what you really want. Then work with your counselor on a plan to get that. Your ultimate journey may be to leave and seek another partner. But you don’t know that yet.


Thank you for this.


----------



## Betrayedone

This is a classic "focus on the kids entirely until they are grown and gone" and then your own relationship woes become magnified. Absolutely classic. Usually it's the woman who initiates divorce at this point but the ball is in your court.


----------



## Mylehigh

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> Sometimes reading another woman's thoughts may make better progress with your wife than discussing it yourself.
> 
> *link omitted*


This is full of similar feelings and concepts as a book I gave her to read - The Sexless Marriage. When I got the book, I read it over a period of about a week and then gave it to her. It took her four months to read it, and she read two other books for her book club before she bothered with it. Actions speak louder...


----------



## BluesPower

Mylehigh said:


> Yeah I hate to say it out loud, but I think you are right. She just doesn't want to and she uses excuses.
> 
> Some may wonder at this point, so maybe ole' Bixby62 is a bit of an ugly chump and she just isn't attracted to him because he let himself go and has the face of a hound. A little awkward to say about myself, but I'm actually a pretty attractive guy and like I said in initial post, I stay very fit. My body is very willing and able to do the deed at a high level, and I am a very generous lover. I just don't know what to do to get her into me. I think she is pretty sexually repressed. She is too shy to give me oral sex and doesn't want it from me either. She's always been more of a missionary kind of gal, but when I have been able to flip her over or on top, she actually would get into it. I just rarely get the chance to make her feel good like that because she is so restrictive.
> 
> Typing all this out is making me mad. My sex life sucks and my wife doesn't ever stick with 'fixing' it. I'm just so damn sick of it.


My brother, you are just so clueless about all of this, I don't know where to start.

Listen, everything that you think you know about women and sex you need to completely forget...

Your wife, according to you initial post has basically never been into sex with you. EVER, Your entire marriage is to someone who would have rather not ever had sex with you at all. Get it.

I am not trying to be mean, but honestly at your age, no matter how sheltered your life has been, brother you need to wake up.

Do you think for a second that she would not suck, "insert movie star's name here", **** if she was with him.

Do you see how silly that is of you to think that way? Listen you are not in the first million of the number of guys that have thought this way.

And I know that it hurt to realize that you loved a women that while she may have loved you like her brother, she was never into you sexually. She was into the husband appliance.

So just accept that you have at least learned this lesson and just move on...


----------



## Mylehigh

I want to thank everyone here for their time and caring enough to share thoughts and advice with a complete and anonymous stranger. I'm a bit overwhelmed right now by the level of response this thread generated - maybe this is normal here, but it's certainly way more than I expected. 

I'm also a little overwhelmed with envisioning a severe change in my life. Part of me feels like an abuse victim - and by saying this I do not mean to diminish the seriousness of physical or emotional abuse that people endure FAR beyond the deprivation of sex. But I say that as more of an analogy because we go through these repeating cycles, I talk, I complain, I reason with her, she eventually listens, becomes compassionate, gives promises of change, a few days or weeks of change, followed by slipping back into our 'normal' lives -- living exactly how she wants to live. Lots of verbal 'I love yous' and couch cuddles with very sparse sexual activity. Lots of happy talk about grandkids and travel, but only the occasional romp and nearly always at my initiative and nearly always the same, limited ways. She senses when I seem to be fed up - or I flat out tell her - so she appeases me short term, and then she just slides right back to who she is. How can I ever expect it to change? I don't think I can because that is who she is and like a few here have said, she gets away with it because I've let her for decades.

I've been thinking a lot about the question asked of me here a few times, and I truly do not know if I would be happier alone. But I am starting to get glimpses of what that would be like and think just maybe I would be.

I have a therapy appointment this week and we are making a MC appointment today. That will probably take 6 weeks to get in, but at least it will be on the books.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Mylehigh said:


> I want to thank everyone here for their time and caring enough to share thoughts and advice with a complete and anonymous stranger. I'm a bit overwhelmed right now by the level of response this thread generated - maybe this is normal here, but it's certainly way more than I expected.
> 
> I'm also a little overwhelmed with envisioning a severe change in my life. *Part of me feels like an abuse victim - and by saying this I do not mean to diminish the seriousness of physical or emotional abuse that people endure FAR beyond the deprivation of sex.* But I say that as more of an analogy because we go through these repeating cycles, I talk, I complain, I reason with her, she eventually listens, becomes compassionate, gives promises of change, a few days or weeks of change, followed by slipping back into our 'normal' lives -- living exactly how she wants to live. Lots of verbal 'I love yous' and couch cuddles with very sparse sexual activity. Lots of happy talk about grandkids and travel, but only the occasional romp and nearly always at my initiative and nearly always the same, limited ways. She senses when I seem to be fed up - or I flat out tell her - so she appeases me short term, and then she just slides right back to who she is. How can I ever expect it to change? I don't think I can because that is who she is and like a few here have said, she gets away with it because I've let her for decades.
> 
> I've been thinking a lot about the question asked of me here a few times, and I truly do not know if I would be happier alone. But I am starting to get glimpses of what that would be like and think just maybe I would be.
> 
> I have a therapy appointment this week and we are making a MC appointment today. That will probably take 6 weeks to get in, but at least it will be on the books.


That is a very apt analogy. And don't worry, nobody's thinking you are minimizing the situation faced by anybody facing real abuse. Your description is spot on. Coming to that realization is a huge step for you. As is starting to thing about life alone vs. continued abuse.


----------



## Mylehigh

BluesPower said:


> My brother, you are just so clueless about all of this, I don't know where to start.
> 
> Listen, everything that you think you know about women and sex you need to completely forget...
> 
> Your wife, according to you initial post has basically never been into sex with you. EVER, Your entire marriage is to someone who would have rather not ever had sex with you at all. Get it.
> 
> I am not trying to be mean, but honestly at your age, no matter how sheltered your life has been, brother you need to wake up.
> 
> Do you think for a second that she would not suck, "insert movie star's name here", **** if she was with him.
> 
> Do you see how silly that is of you to think that way? Listen you are not in the first million of the number of guys that have thought this way.
> 
> And I know that it hurt to realize that you loved a women that while she may have loved you like her brother, she was never into you sexually. She was into the husband appliance.
> 
> So just accept that you have at least learned this lesson and just move on...


Thanks for your straight talk - but there is a lifetime that cannot be explained in a few paragraphs. I believe that her problem is one of general sexual repression. She has very low levels of desire, so I don't believe she would blow some movie star. I really don't think she even masturbates, like ever. I've tried to get some kind of info from her on that subject and she is way too uncomfortable to talk about it.

I think if she found herself single she would shy away from any relationship, but if she got in one, she would do all the deeds with him as she started out with me before marriage and maybe for the first year or so because she would have to. But she is repressed. Not horny and wishing I was someone else.


----------



## Marc878

A lot will stay in these situations even though it's bad because of fear of the unknown. 

You know what you've got and that will never change. No matter what.

It's your choice. Stay and accept it for what it is or make a change.

Life is short and the older you get the more you'll realize that.

Talking in these situations won't get you a thing.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Mylehigh said:


> Thanks for your straight talk - but there is a lifetime that cannot be explained in a few paragraphs. I believe that her problem is one of general sexual repression. She has very low levels of desire, so I don't believe she would blow some movie star. I really don't think she even masturbates, like ever. I've tried to get some kind of info from her on that subject and she is way too uncomfortable to talk about it.
> 
> I think if she found herself single she would shy away from any relationship, but if she got in one, she would do all the deeds with him as she started out with me before marriage and maybe for the first year or so because she would have to. But she is repressed. Not horny and wishing I was someone else.


Excellent post. You are more likely to know better than anyone here whether or not your wife is disinterested in you alone or just disinterested in sex in general. Not all sexless or low sex marriages are due to a partner just being with the wrong person; many are because one partner just isn't into sex period. While you do need to consider the possibility that you're just not the right guy for her, others need to consider that there's just no right guy for some women in this regard.


----------



## Blondilocks

Mylehigh said:


> Hi all,
> 
> New here today. Wanting to vent a little and see where it gets me.
> 
> Married for over 30 years. Three kids (D27, S24, S23). I ALWAYS put family first - never my job. My family was my identity and for over 20 years, fulfilled my sense of self-worth.
> 
> At the same time, I've always been the sole income provider and we have done well enough to live an upper-middle class life in an expensive part of the country. We paid for 100% of college expenses for our kids so they would graduate debt free (all of them have done so), we've been able to afford occasional world travel, we have nice home, we have savings for retirement, etc... So in other words, in addition to husband and father, I've had a business role in this family system that I've dutifully fulfilled, and it wasn't ever easy.
> 
> Now the kids are all grown, (mostly) happy, educated and highly functional people, and we are now 2x grandparents in our mid 50s.
> 
> The problem: my wife has very little interest in sex but I am and have always been very interested in sex (with her). It has been a problem throughout our marriage. For many many (many!!!) years, we used to make love about once a month, but that was pretty much only if we hit the 'cycle timing' just right, otherwise, no-go for another 4 (or even 8) weeks. That was NEVER enough for me, but we always played by her rules. Yes, I communicated with her about it, and sometimes we even fought about it. Fast-forward to now and she is now post-menopausal and cringes at my touch 90% of the time I try to touch her - and this is when we seem to be ready for some intimacy, I'm not just going for a fast grab in the kitchen... Sex is "uncomfortable" for her now due to dryness, but she doesn't seem to want to lube it up and give it a go unless I press the issue for days to weeks on end. She seems to be willing to give me manual relief, but that only goes so far. Yeah, she can eventually 'get me off' but that's not the intimacy I want.
> 
> I feel like we are drifting into a hopeless situation and I am resentful and feeling unloved. I believe if you really love someone you just plain want to be intimate with them. Period. So how can she love me and not want me to touch her?? I just can't get my head around that.
> 
> I've read books, given her the books to read, and tried to romance her and follow all the good husband rules, but all she wants to do is essentially co-grandparent and co-parent, talk about the kids, etc.
> 
> I want to be a strong, independent couple that thrives on each other as people (not just co-parents), a couple that craves each other and satisfies each other with authentic passion. I don't want to be in a marriage that is less than that. *I tell her every day of her life that I love her. I tell her every day of her life that she is beautiful and that I find her very attractive (because she is). I compliment her clothing, her hair, her body, etc. *but she is a real perfectionist and thinks she needs to lose weight even though I find her extremely sexy. Yeah - she is probably about 10 or 15 lbs over weight, but holy lord above, she is in her mid-50s. So I say, so what?!?! I am super fit due to active hobbies, and she is not and I think that bothers her. But she is NOT "fat" like she thinks she is. Obviously she has a pretty bad self image and that carries right on over to her intimacy issues.
> 
> Life is too short and I think I want out. But I don't want to hurt my kids. I feel so trapped and emotionally and physically unfulfilled.


Stop this! Stop every single bit of it. Stop chasing her. She is getting her emotional needs met. You aren't. Stop the remodeling projects - just stop. You don't enjoy it.

When, not if, she makes noises about are you all right, why aren't you saying you love me or compliment me or send me flowers/cards or want to work on the house: your response is "Because I don't feel close to you".

Start this now and get it well established before marriage counseling so there will be some real grist at the session. Make yourself some notes on what it will take for you to stay in the marriage and a timeline for sustained effort on her part.

Let her chase you!


----------



## BluesPower

Mylehigh said:


> I'm also a little overwhelmed with envisioning a severe change in my life. Part of me feels like an abuse victim - and by saying this I do not mean to diminish the seriousness of physical or emotional abuse that people endure FAR beyond the deprivation of sex. But I say that as more of an analogy because we go through these repeating cycles, I talk, I complain, I reason with her, she eventually listens, becomes compassionate, gives promises of change, a few days or weeks of change, followed by slipping back into our 'normal' lives -- living exactly how she wants to live. Lots of verbal 'I love yous' and couch cuddles with very sparse sexual activity. Lots of happy talk about grandkids and travel, but only the occasional romp and nearly always at my initiative and nearly always the same, limited ways. She senses when I seem to be fed up - or I flat out tell her - so she appeases me short term, and then she just slides right back to who she is. How can I ever expect it to change? I don't think I can because that is who she is and like a few here have said, *she gets away with it because I've let her for decades.*


Please re-read what you just wrote. Then read what I just wrote you.

DUDE, you are her aging brother, BFF, not her husband.

What woman like her would not want a BFF to pay her bills, take her traveling, and fix things that brake....

YOU ARE NOT HER LOVER, you are her husband appliance.

Time to move on. And really, you are wasting your time with MC, and Therapy. SHE KNOWS what you want and she also KNOWS that you will not divorce her, SO SHE DOES NOT CARE...

And you know what, this is a form of abuse... You are like most abused people that keep thinking that if you are perfect, and do everything right they will love you and stop abusing you...

Except it does not work that way...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Blondilocks said:


> Stop this! Stop every single bit of it. Stop chasing her. She is getting her emotional needs met. You aren't. Stop the remodeling projects - just stop. You don't enjoy it.
> 
> *When, not if, she makes noises about are you all right, why aren't you saying you love me or compliment me or send me flowers/cards or want to work on the house: your response is "Because I don't feel close to you".*
> 
> Start this now and get it well established before marriage counseling so there will be some real grist at the session. Make yourself some notes on what it will take for you to stay in the marriage and a timeline for sustained effort on her part.
> 
> Let her chase you!


I favor this approach, but must share two caveats.

1. Don't expect her chasing you to be the inevitable result. That is but one possible outcome and not necessarily the most likely one. Of course, if she doesn't chase you in return, then that is another data point that tells you where you stand and your prospects for the future.

2. Re: the bolded. When you do that (and you must do that), be prepared. You are likely to get a lot of shaming in the form of "you only want me for my vagina" or related oversimplification that will make you the bad guy. Don't accept that either. You know who you are and you know how you've tried in all aspects of your relationship, especially sticking with it through all those intolerably lean years. Stay resolute.


----------



## Marc878

Lila said:


> There's no sense giving OP false hope. He may find that special someone but then again he may not. I'm not suggesting he should stick to his marriage if he's miserable. What I am saying is he should not consider leaving in search of greener pastures.
> 
> After divorce there are no guarantees when it comes to Mrs Right. Yes the doors will open to him to seek out other women, who may be more compatible with him sexually, but that search may or may not result in Mrs. Right. And the search can be exhausting and in some cases depressing.
> 
> The worse thing that can happen is he leaves his wife in search of greener pastures and realizes too late that the grass is not greener, just different.
> Each with unique sets of problems and as @Diana7 said "baggage".
> 
> The happiest divorced men (and women) I know are the ones who are perfectly content being alone. They aren't actively seeking out a partner for intimacy but instead focus on themselves. If their life path happens to come across someone special, then great. If not, no big deal.
> 
> That's what I mean by "he should leave his marriage when he is happier alone than with his wife". It's not that he's going to miserable single vs his current marriage. It's that his happiness should not be dependant upon finding another woman.


OP is alone. That's why he's here. 

Hope is better than no hope (which is where he's at).

If he's a good guy, steady job, decent looks his ability to find someone more compatable than his current roommate/wife will be high. 

When you get stuck in a bait and switch like OP has you do have a choice.


----------



## Lila

Marc878 said:


> OP is alone. That's why he's here.
> 
> Hope is better than no hope (which is where he's at).
> 
> *If he's a good guy, steady job, decent looks his ability to find someone more compatable than his current roommate/wife will be high.*
> 
> When you get stuck in a bait and switch like OP has you do have a choice.


Again, the odds do not matter. He should not exit his marriage with the sole intention of finding happiness with another woman. He should work on finding happiness within himself. If he chooses divorce, then be happy living life with or without a woman. If he finds Mrs. Right, great. If he doesn't, great.


----------



## wilson

Mylehigh said:


> I have a therapy appointment this week and we are making a MC appointment today. That will probably take 6 weeks to get in, but at least it will be on the books.


Maybe consider moving out. Tell her you need your own space to think and you'll reconsider after you see how MC goes. You need to do something significant to shock her if you expect to see any progress. If you just continue along, MC will just be her looking for validation of why she shouldn't have to have be intimate. You want her mindset to be one of trying to figure out how to enjoy intimacy or she'll lose you. I would suggest getting a formal separation agreement drawn up. That will make it clear that this is the last time you're going to try and there will be significant consequences if it doesn't work out.

Due to the length of your marriage and the kids, I think it's worth trying to work it out. I see a lot of value in a life-long relationship, so I see that as worthwhile to try to save. But that's contingent on things actually getting better to your satisfaction. Don't waste your life trying to boil the ocean.


----------



## Marc878

Lila said:


> Again, the odds do not matter. *He should not exit his marriage with the sole intention of finding happiness with another woman.* He should work on finding happiness within himself. If he chooses divorce, then be happy living life with or without a woman. If he finds Mrs. Right, great. If he doesn't, great.


I disagree. 

If OP wants a life with another relationship his only option is to divorce his roommate wife and find someone more compatible. He needs to end this bait and switch marriage. The sooner the better.

There are better and more compatable women out there. You do have to put in the effort to find the right one. Dating can be fun. 

Their is no magic fix here. She is what she is and that won't ever change.


----------



## Marc878

wilson said:


> Maybe consider moving out. Tell her you need your own space to think and you'll reconsider after you see how MC goes. You need to do something significant to shock her if you expect to see any progress. If you just continue along, MC will just be her looking for validation of why she shouldn't have to have be intimate. You want her mindset to be one of trying to figure out how to enjoy intimacy or she'll lose you. I would suggest getting a formal separation agreement drawn up. That will make it clear that this is the last time you're going to try and there will be significant consequences if it doesn't work out.
> 
> Due to the length of your marriage and the kids, I think it's worth trying to work it out. I see a lot of value in a life-long relationship, so I see that as worthwhile to try to save. But that's contingent on things actually getting better to your satisfaction. Don't waste your life trying to boil the ocean.


Best case senario is she may change short term then revert back.

This is all talk but will end with no action. Just more wasted time and life. You'll never get that back either.


----------



## wilson

Marc878 said:


> Best case senario is she may change short term then revert back.
> 
> This is all talk but will end with no action. Just more wasted time and life. You'll never get that back either.


I agree it's likely that change will be short term, but we have posters here who were in similar situations who stayed together and are genuinely happy with the progress that was made. No doubt those situations are the exception, but given the multi-decade relationship and large family he has, I see it as worth taking a chance. But that doesn't mean trying for decades more. It means that within months there should be significant changes that indicate a permanent difference. If it's the repeat of the past where after a few weeks it's back to normal, then it should be over.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Marc878 said:


> I disagree.
> 
> If OP wants a life with another relationship his only option is to divorce his roommate wife and find someone more compatible. He needs to end this bait and switch marriage. The sooner the better.
> 
> There are better and more compatable women out there. You do have to put in the effort to find the right one. Dating can be fun.
> 
> *Their is no magic fix here. *She is what she is and that won't ever change.


This also goes for the post-D single life. That's why the possibility of not finding Ms. Right must be part of the decision equation. Hence the question.... if you were to end up alone, how does that compare to the status quo? 

If you can't answer that with a "better," then make sure you look before you leap.


----------



## Mylehigh

wilson said:


> I agree it's likely that change will be short term, but we have posters here who were in similar situations who stayed together and are genuinely happy with the progress that was made. No doubt those situations are the exception, but given the multi-decade relationship and large family he has, I see it as worth taking a chance. But that doesn't mean trying for decades more. It means that within months there should be significant changes that indicate a permanent difference. *If it's the repeat of the past where after a few weeks it's back to normal, then it should be over.*


I think this is where I am headed (bolded above). When we talk about the subject she flips back and forth from being defensive and saying that I am not giving her all she wants out of the relationship (like doing things often enough with her friends as couples that I don't actually like, but have done so many many times for her) to being lovey-dovey and talking in our safe zones about our family. I've told her more than once that it is hard for me to be fully engaged while living under her terms of a relationship with the ever-looming fear of rejection and lock-outs with one false move. 

We have days where I'm like, oh yeah, she is looking so good to me today and she is flirty and I sure can't wait to make passionate (??) love with her tonight... to one little stressor arrives late afternoon, and boom. Done. No way it's happening. Not for days now... I've said to her that I don't like the sexual punishment and she says it's not punishment (and boy it pisses her off if I say that), I just don't feel like having sex with you when we are having stress, and I say, we wouldn't be having stress if you could just give yourself whole-heartedly and physically to me a couple of times a week instead of half-heartedly a couple times a month!! And so it goes. 

Chicken or egg??

I make myself sound so righteous and perfect in these posts but I'm sure those out there reading this know full well that hurt people are not perfect. :| But I am a pretty good and stable guy and just keep getting into these walking on eggshells, do lots of chores, be sweet and loving, do lots of coercing kind of patterns with the hopes that we are building momentum to connect, only to have it shattered by a casual remark or reaction. When I call our relationship out as being so fragile, it is of course just another assurance that we will remain physically distant for days or weeks to come, which in turn means we will be emotionally distant as well. It's quite a process. 

Shut up so she will put out!! sometimes rings in my ears... then after the eventual 20 minutes of glory are over, I think of how I wish we could have really made love instead of her being distracted with scratching her arm, clearing her throat, getting her hair pulled, the pillows are not right, seeming to be obligated and just in general uncomfortable, telling me to not hold back and please hurry because she won't last very long yadda yadda... Is it worth it?? Haha...not really. Makes me wonder what it would be like with someone who really wanted me. It's been so long since I've felt that way.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Mylehigh said:


> wilson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree it's likely that change will be short term, but we have posters here who were in similar situations who stayed together and are genuinely happy with the progress that was made. No doubt those situations are the exception, but given the multi-decade relationship and large family he has, I see it as worth taking a chance. But that doesn't mean trying for decades more. It means that within months there should be significant changes that indicate a permanent difference. *If it's the repeat of the past where after a few weeks it's back to normal, then it should be over.*
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is where I am headed (bolded above). When we talk about the subject she flips back and forth from being defensive and saying that I am not giving her all she wants out of the relationship (like doing things often enough with her friends as couples that I don't actually like, but have done so many many times for her) to being lovey-dovey and talking in our safe zones about our family. I've told her more than once that it is hard for me to be fully engaged while living under her terms of a relationship with the ever-looming fear of rejection and lock-outs with one false move.
> 
> We have days where I'm like, oh yeah, she is looking so good to me today and she is flirty and I sure can't wait to make passionate (??) love with her tonight... to one little stressor arrives late afternoon, and boom. Done. No way it's happening. Not for days now... I've said to her that I don't like the sexual punishment and she says it's not punishment (and boy it pisses her off if I say that), I just don't feel like having sex with you when we are having stress, and I say, we wouldn't be having stress if you could just give yourself whole-heartedly and physically to me a couple of times a week instead of half-heartedly a couple times a month!! And so it goes.
> 
> Chicken or egg??
> 
> I make myself sound so righteous and perfect in these posts but I'm sure those out there reading this know full well that hurt people are not perfect. <a href="Articles" border="0" alt="" title="Serious" ></a> But I am a pretty good and stable guy and just keep getting into these walking on eggshells, do lots of chores, be sweet and loving, do lots of coercing kind of patterns with the hopes that we are building momentum to connect, only to have it shattered by a casual remark or reaction. When I call our relationship out as being so fragile, it is of course just another assurance that we will remain physically distant for days or weeks to come, which in turn means we will be emotionally distant as well. It's quite a process.
> 
> Shut up so she will put out!! sometimes rings in my ears... then after the eventual 20 minutes of glory are over, I think of how I wish we could have really made love instead of her being distracted with scratching her arm, clearing her throat, getting her hair pulled, the pillows are not right, seeming to be obligated and just in general uncomfortable, telling me to not hold back and please hurry because she won't last very long yadda yadda... Is it worth it?? Haha...not really. Makes me wonder what it would be like with someone who really wanted me. It's been so long since I've felt that way.
Click to expand...

Is there any chance you could tell her about you signing on at TAM and ask her to join also? The reason being, we could hear her side and for sure if it is just excuses, people will point this out to her.

Another option is Marriage Builders. They have an online counseling program that seems to really be helpful. Their main premise is that if the couple does not nurture their romantic love by attending to both partners needs (including sexual), then most relationships are doomed. They help you find out how to avoid that by staying in love.

But to do that both partners are advised that they must see and recognize each other’s needs and if you don’t, won’t or can’t, there is no point in moving forward.


----------



## Livvie

It sounds like just merely being relieved from this stressful relationship (not even factoring in the quality of your sex life) would be a positive life improvement.


----------



## wilson

Mylehigh said:


> We have days where I'm like, oh yeah, she is looking so good to me today and she is flirty and I sure can't wait to make passionate (??) love with her tonight... to one little stressor arrives late afternoon, and boom. Done. No way it's happening. Not for days now...


She's probably self-sabotaging. I'm guessing the stressor is often trivial or one of her own making ("Someone on facebook said something I don't like and now I'm so mad!", "We're out of ketchup and now I'm so mad!", "The sun is shining in my eyes and now I'm so mad!")

There is certainly a big mountain of issues to overcome with her. It's going to take some pretty big dynamite to blow it apart.


----------



## Casual Observer

*You need a crisis to improve the relationship*



wilson said:


> I agree it's likely that change will be short term, but we have posters here who were in similar situations who stayed together and are genuinely happy with the progress that was made. No doubt those situations are the exception, but given the multi-decade relationship and large family he has, I see it as worth taking a chance. But that doesn't mean trying for decades more. It means that within months there should be significant changes that indicate a permanent difference. If it's the repeat of the past where after a few weeks it's back to normal, then it should be over.


I believe the likelihood of change depends upon one partner being willing to establish new rituals that address the needs of the other person, and keep at it, pretty much no-matter-what. Make it clear you're willing to do what it takes. BUT- if over time it doesn't work out, then it's time to leave. 

Getting there requires a crisis. Either one comes up on its own, or you create one. It's not that hard. But until you find out what's really bugging the other person, what they resent, you'll get nowhere. That crap has to get out in the open. The ugly stuff. And man, when I heard it, it ripped my heart out. For a while I felt like my life was over, there was no hope. Until you get there, until you find that bottom, you can't climb out. Well, you can, but you'll keep slipping back down. You HAVE to get to what's bothering your partner. The stuff they don't want to talk about. 

You'd think you would need your partner's help to improve things. You don't, not at that time. You just need to know what you're up against, and address those issues. Your partner needs to see you're serious about it. If, after doing that for several months, you don't see any movement in your partner's actions towards you, then you can conclude it's pretty much over. At least, nothing's going to change.

Nothing here is done in secret. Your partner is made aware of your plan, and the desired goal. In my case, the goal was to make sure she knew what she would lose if I weren't around. Pretty simple really. Which only works if she knows that me not being around is a real possibility. That the momentum of nearly 40 years of marriage wasn't going to carry us another 10 or 15 or 20.

So far, things are working beyond my expectations. There are still issues, some of them mine, some of them hers. But we're spending a lot more time doing things together than previously. A lot less time watching TV. The bedtime ritual has changed completely; no more of her having to watch the weather at 10:15 & 10:45, a habit she fiercely protected and pretty much shut down intimacy in the evening, leaving only time for "duty sex." She knew I'd had issues with this for years, but it took a crisis to change.

Let me be clear- simply posting here does not constitute a crisis. The relative comfort you find posting here is a huge contrast to the tears & fears you'll get when you confront the issues with your partner. It will be messy. You will feel guilty. She will wonder where your empathy went. She and perhaps others will question why "Everything is just about sex." Lord knows I got enough of that. But I'm here to tell you, it's worth it.


----------



## hptessla

Mylehigh said:


> I don't know if I am in the emotional state to be fair at this point, but I guess I'd say we share very few interests other than travel. Even that has become more difficult as she gets more and more picky with what she will eat, where we will stay (specific hotels), etc.
> 
> Also, she doesn't really enjoy talking about stuff other than family, or what I call OPB. Other people's business. Yawn! I don't give a crap about trivial details about other people. She gets annoyed if I start talking about something on TV while it is still on. Like a news story about something - I say, oh yeah, I've heard about this, I think blah blah blah and she'd rather not bother to talk and share ideas. She's just not that interested. Ugh!
> 
> Also, we fight a lot about perfectionist details when doing home remodeling work, which unfortunately we have done a lot of over the years and recently. She has to have everything in such a perfect state, we can never hire contractors so we have to labor over everything ourselves, only to tear things out and start over because the grout dried a little darker than she expected, or a line seems a little off in the middle of a tiled wall... it's exhausting and on the scale of our lives, really quite unimportant to me if the grout wasn't perfect.
> 
> Part of me lately just feels like I don't really like her very much anymore. But I think that's because I've been rejected for decades, and a guy can only take so much. If she would be close to me, I'd probably be a pretty happy person and like her again.


The remodeling work situation is interesting.
It doesn't sound like you enjoy it, certainly not HER way of doing it.
Stop doing it. She doesn't enjoy sex, it's important to you and she stopped. Remodeling is important to her, not to you. Let her do it. Tell her that you simply have no desire to do any remodeling, don't relate it to sex; let her figure out that connection.

You talk about travel and food and how her tastes are hurting your pleasure in those things. Tell her you want to take a trip wherever you want to go and if she doesn't want to go and doesn't present an alternative you'd enjoy book the trip for yourself. Don't do this out of anger. Don't explain it a thousand times to her, just kind of 'pass it by' her; not for approval but as a heads up.

Things won't get worse. They may not get better. You have got to get this straight in your head because you are a man who is responsible and considerate and we tend to feel guilty about doing something for our own benefit. The standard line is that women put everyone else first...look around. Consideration and compromise are not gender based qualities. Your wife hasn't necessarily weaponized sex purposely but she has done it. She may not even understand she did it. If you try to tell her she will deny it's so...and she may feel she is honest in denying it. You have to move her off that position. You are not weaponizing your desires, you are simply taking advantage of your strengths, which are flexibility and endurance. She appears not to have these strengths, she has others. Fine, let her focus on her strengths while you focus on yours; hers seem to be very self centered and negative. Maybe she will start to recognize that...never point it out to her because that will set things back to the start.
In my opinion your strengths seem more fun and positive. Maybe she will see that. The world is an imperfect place, there are no pat answers or fixes. I'm offering a perspective, not a cut/paste solution. I'm coming out of an affair that my wife had. The standard answer in my case was 'leave', many here think I'm an idiot to stay and try and reconcile. We're giving it a year before reassessing. Things are progressing, very slowly. Every day it is an internal fight for me to stay focused away from anger/impatience over the slow progress. I have had to, at the same time, sincerely tell her I love her, always will and will never divorce...but there are lots of options other than divorce for me and at this time I am not seeing the progress I need to see (at 6 months). She will guilt me but it's like raising kids...which you've done. This is the right thing and I am not looking to grind her down for her affair but no one would contest that only an idiot would go on as if nothing happened. It's not selfish to want a marriage to actually work. It's not selfish to want the long term good of yourself and your spouse. You're not leaving her and you're not screwing around on her. You have a basic human right to expect things of her...as she does from you. At the same time both of you have free will. Use yours to advance things for both of you; sometimes that requires a retrenchment.

The final thing I would add, and this I think is gender based. Listen to what she is saying, not just the words. There is a lot of non-verbal communication (I've recently become very aware of this - slow learner). She's not happy and she's broadcasting that. Why? There might be some things that she won't ever say that you can pick up on. Maybe some of those things ARE legitimate issues with you...many will not be, but the ones that are can be worked on by you quietly. It's not a sign of weakness to look at yourself from a different perspective. Those changes though are not negotiating chips that she gets to call in. That becomes a power struggle. She has already headed down that path with the sex. You are taking a higher road and the advantage of that is that you are not playing a power game.
The '180' was another piece of advice I got from people. It's not necessarily bad, but implemented as a power play it is. In one format of the 180 I become my wife's parent or jailer, no thanks. However, there is sense in the idea. The 180 can be well implemented if it is done without the power play aspects. I don't check my wife's texts, I don't monitor where she is. She's started telling me if she is going to be late coming home, she's started leaving her phone laying around again. I never asked her to. Maybe it's subconscious, but something is changing. She will still bring up things to get a rise out of me if our conversations get too close to places she doesn't want to go. But she's a smart woman and she's not a sociopath (though I was beginning to wonder). Changing behavior that is working, albeit imperfectly, is hard to do. I doubt that your wife truly has zero desire for sex. I doubt that she wants a divorce. However, left to it's own devices your marriage will probably fall apart. Arguments aren't going to bring the change you want.
I started looking back at my life when I first learned of my wife's affair and was trying to figure out how to change her. I began to see patterns of who I respected and why and how that respect led me to better places than all the reason and logic and arguments ever did. I had to really look at myself, I have to continue to look at myself every day and I will always have to. Beyond my marriage and our kids is myself. I will always be with myself and while I didn't hate myself I have many places I simply don't look too deeply to keep it that way. That's the norm. We all have those places and as long as we live we will continue to have them. You have them, your wife has them. She's not going to delve into those places because you point them out overtly. Over time she may well begin to peek in if she sees you change and grow without her prompting.


----------



## Marc878

Most in these situations will do anything to keep from making a decision.

Grasping at straws and living on hopium is at the top of the list.

Talk gets you nothing but the same.

Unfortunately this is where you are putting yourself. You are the only one keeping yourself where you're at.


----------



## Mylehigh

Faithful Wife said:


> Is there any chance you could tell her about you signing on at TAM and ask her to join also? The reason being, we could hear her side and for sure if it is just excuses, people will point this out to her...


Thanks for your response. I really don't think she would like the online forum scene but who knows. I can suggest it. The good news is we are seeing someone together in about a month now. And based on her attitude and intensity last night :wink2:, it appears she is serious about some changes this time. She loved talking about last night this morning and seemed to really feel the impact not only in her own enjoyment, but in my spirits today. A good start!

I've seen a few comments on here that suggest it is hopeless for me, essentially suggesting that I will be deceived and it won't last, and I understand why based on everything I've written. I guess the hopium is pretty potent stuff for me! But we've done some heart to heart talking and she seems to recognize that we REALLY DO have a lot on the line now, so maybe our crisis has arrived. She also apparently recognized last night that if the worst she has to do is give herself openly to me, then perhaps it ain't so bad.


----------



## Mylehigh

Marc878 said:


> Most in these situations will do anything to keep from making a decision.
> 
> Grasping at straws and living on hopium is at the top of the list.
> 
> Talk gets you nothing but the same.
> 
> Unfortunately this is where you are putting yourself. You are the only one keeping yourself where you're at.


Decisions take many forms. To do nothing is a decision. To stay and work on it in earnest is also a decision. I've got a family on the line and it's worth some work to keep it. 

This group - including some of your feedback - has been helpful in pushing me to send the clear signal that now is the time for earnest change. It is a step in the right direction and I don't agree that talk gets you nothing. Without talk, you truly have zero chance of change.

The poster that shared the forgiven wife link provided us some good evidence that some women can actually turn the corner once the fire is lit. Maybe we can enjoy an outcome like that one, or like the one another poster described where he and his wife have rediscovered each other in their low 60s and are getting busy with it every day now for two months!


----------



## Marc878

Good luck. Hope it works out for you.


----------



## wilson

I personally would not recommend your wife comes here. Although there can be a lot of good advice, some people have negative agendas. Sometimes people unload their anger on LD spouses who have come here. They treat the person as a proxy for their own LD spouse and say a lot of negative things. She should only come here if she is ready for a lot of 2x4's to be swung in her direction.

I'm glad to hear about your progress. Hopefully things keep progressing in the right direction. MC can help or hinder your progress. Take a proactive position when you are in counseling. You want to make sure the sessions are about finding ways for her to increase intimacy. Don't let it turn into a gripe session about everything wrong in her life and all the reasons she doesn't want to be intimate. If she has legitimate complaints, then fine, but don't allow her to have the belief that everything in her life has to be perfect for intimacy to happen. I would also recommend you ask the MC some pointed questions about sexless marriages right away. Ask how likely divorce is in a marriage without intimacy. Ask what kind of success they've had with sexless marriages. Ask how much responsibility should fall on her to enjoy intimacy. You should get the sense that the counselor understands that lack of intimacy means the marriage is over. If the counselor is wishy-washy or you don't like the answers, find another MC.


----------



## Mr.Married

Mylehigh said:


> Decisions take many forms. To do nothing is a decision. To stay and work on it in earnest is also a decision. I've got a family on the line and it's worth some work to keep it.
> 
> This group - including some of your feedback - has been helpful in pushing me to send the clear signal that now is the time for earnest change. It is a step in the right direction and I don't agree that talk gets you nothing. Without talk, you truly have zero chance of change.
> 
> The poster that shared the forgiven wife link provided us some good evidence that some women can actually turn the corner once the fire is lit. Maybe we can enjoy an outcome like that one, or like the one another poster described where he and his wife have rediscovered each other in their low 60s and are getting busy with it every day now for two months!


Hi Mylehigh,

I think when people reference "talk" the idea is: The more you only "talk" the more it only stays the same. The idea being that inside of your relationship all the talk has gotten
you nowhere. I understand your point that talk is needed, BUT it is what that talk is that makes the difference. It seems to me that the ones who mix ACTION with talk get the results.
Unfortunately your life in regards to the matter has been only talk with no action so to say.

It also would appear that you have entirely wrapped your own complete self identity around her. While this may sound admirable it doesn't exactly create sexual attraction.
I know it sounds a little strange but its much preferable to be the type of person that is strong enough to be who they are and not lose themselves into there spouse.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Mylehigh said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any chance you could tell her about you signing on at TAM and ask her to join also? The reason being, we could hear her side and for sure if it is just excuses, people will point this out to her...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your response. I really don't think she would like the online forum scene but who knows. I can suggest it. The good news is we are seeing someone together in about a month now. And based on her attitude and intensity last night <a href="Articles" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" ></a>, it appears she is serious about some changes this time. She loved talking about last night this morning and seemed to really feel the impact not only in her own enjoyment, but in my spirits today. A good start!
> 
> I've seen a few comments on here that suggest it is hopeless for me, essentially suggesting that I will be deceived and it won't last, and I understand why based on everything I've written. I guess the hopium is pretty potent stuff for me! But we've done some heart to heart talking and she seems to recognize that we REALLY DO have a lot on the line now, so maybe our crisis has arrived. She also apparently recognized last night that if the worst she has to do is give herself openly to me, then perhaps it ain't so bad.
Click to expand...

Oh yay!!! Well I’m high on hopium for you.

Keep talking, gently and lovingly, and don’t let this slip away. Be patient but unrelenting in what you want, which is something beautiful with your wife.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Mylehigh said:


> Thanks for your response. I really don't think she would like the online forum scene but who knows. I can suggest it. The good news is we are seeing someone together in about a month now. *And based on her attitude and intensity last night :wink2:, it appears she is serious about some changes this time. *She loved talking about last night this morning and seemed to really feel the impact not only in her own enjoyment, but in my spirits today. A good start!
> 
> I've seen a few comments on here that suggest it is hopeless for me, essentially suggesting that I will be deceived and it won't last, and I understand why based on everything I've written. I guess the hopium is pretty potent stuff for me! But we've done some heart to heart talking and she seems to recognize that we REALLY DO have a lot on the line now, so maybe our crisis has arrived. She also apparently recognized last night that if the worst she has to do is give herself openly to me, then perhaps it ain't so bad.


Hope can be a wonderful thing and it can work miracles. Hope, even hope arising from what appears to be a very positive data point, can also lead to disappointment.

This may have just been a smokescreen or delaying tactic.

It is more likely that she was genuinely spirited and committed to improvement... at the time. But the thing is, for someone like that, such behavior can be very taxing for them and in the long run they find they don't have the and/or are not willing to put in the effort to sustain it. 

I truly hope it is indeed a new start; just be on the lookout for backsliding and when it comes, be ready to view it with eyes fully open to discern whether it is a temporary setback or part of a trend back into the old ways.


----------



## Mylehigh

wilson said:


> I personally would not recommend your wife comes here. Although there can be a lot of good advice, some people have negative agendas. Sometimes people unload their anger on LD spouses who have come here. They treat the person as a proxy for their own LD spouse and say a lot of negative things. She should only come here if she is ready for a lot of 2x4's to be swung in her direction.
> 
> I'm glad to hear about your progress. Hopefully things keep progressing in the right direction. MC can help or hinder your progress. Take a proactive position when you are in counseling. You want to make sure the sessions are about finding ways for her to increase intimacy. Don't let it turn into a gripe session about everything wrong in her life and all the reasons she doesn't want to be intimate. If she has legitimate complaints, then fine, but don't allow her to have the belief that everything in her life has to be perfect for intimacy to happen. I would also recommend you ask the MC some pointed questions about sexless marriages right away. Ask how likely divorce is in a marriage without intimacy. Ask what kind of success they've had with sexless marriages. Ask how much responsibility should fall on her to enjoy intimacy. You should get the sense that the counselor understands that lack of intimacy means the marriage is over. If the counselor is wishy-washy or you don't like the answers, find another MC.


Lots of helpful suggestions here. I will certainly be to the point right out of the gates as to why I am there and what I want from the counseling and ultimately, the marriage. At $150/hour, no sense in dancing around the topic.


----------



## Mylehigh

Mr.Married said:


> Hi Mylehigh,
> 
> I think when people reference "talk" the idea is: The more you only "talk" the more it only stays the same. The idea being that inside of your relationship all the talk has gotten
> you nowhere. I understand your point that talk is needed, BUT it is what that talk is that makes the difference. It seems to me that the ones who mix ACTION with talk get the results.
> Unfortunately your life in regards to the matter has been only talk with no action so to say.
> 
> *It also would appear that you have entirely wrapped your own complete self identity around her.* While this may sound admirable it doesn't exactly create sexual attraction.
> I know it sounds a little strange but its much preferable to be the type of person that is strong enough to be who they are and not lose themselves into there spouse.


I imagine it could appear that way in this forum discussion, but I really do not see that with me. I spend a good deal of time with activities and people outside of my marital relationship. I travel fairly often in my professional life and I have a circle of friends in the sports that I participate in - none of which involves her. She is far more limited in her activities outside of me than I am with her. I just don't like the absence of real connections and true intimacy. I think it is possible to miss that and still be a strong, independent self.

But I do agree with the first part of your response. Strongly!


----------



## Blondilocks

Let us know how long that **** tides you over.


----------



## Mylehigh

Blondilocks said:


> Let us know how long that **** tides you over.


You got it!


----------



## wilson

One thing you can work on right now is strengthening the emotional connection in your relationship. You've mentioned doing things apart, like having your own hobbies and travel. You've mentioned having disagreements about stuff when you're together. Those kinds of things create emotional distance that makes intimacy harder for her. The closer she feels to you, the easier it will be for her to be intimate. But being emotionally close is also part of healthy marriage regardless. So even aside from the intimacy issues, you should be working towards ensuring a strong emotional connection if you are trying to make the marriage last. You may say you don't feel loved without physical intimacy, but I would bet she would say she doesn't feel loved without a strong emotional connection.

Try and behave more like you did when you were first dating. I'm guessing you guys spent a lot more time together at first. Making dinner was a cooperative effort with a lot of laughter. Weekends were spent doing fun activities. The environment was such that you guys enjoyed each other's company and looked forward to doing things together. Try to regain that. Instead of spending the weekend on a solo activity like riding your bike (or whatever), take her out to breakfast and then drive to some festival in a little town. If at the end of the day her heart is happy because she had a fun day with you, it will be much easier for her to be intimate.


----------



## Casual Observer

Mylehigh said:


> Decisions take many forms. To do nothing is a decision. To stay and work on it in earnest is also a decision. I've got a family on the line and it's worth some work to keep it.
> 
> This group - including some of your feedback - has been helpful in pushing me to send the clear signal that now is the time for earnest change. It is a step in the right direction and I don't agree that talk gets you nothing. Without talk, you truly have zero chance of change.
> 
> The poster that shared the forgiven wife link provided us some good evidence that some women can actually turn the corner once the fire is lit. Maybe we can enjoy an outcome like that one, or like the one another poster described where he and his wife have rediscovered each other in their low 60s and are getting busy with it every day now for two months!


To be fair, there's usually a day skipped each week, and one week maybe two days? We never went through the ridiculous dry spells many people mention here, because I wouldn't allow that, and ended up settling for "duty sex" maybe 3 times a week, pretty much from the beginning of our marriage. I am obviously on the HD side of things. Even having two kids didn't change that; perhaps it might have declined to 2 times/week.

But now, the frequency is obviously at the extreme end for people our age, and it's more of a looked-forward-to-ritual than anything else. The ritual begins with me making the bed, getting a flower arrangement and each day placing one of the flowers on the pillow, buying cards now & then, helping in the kitchen with clean-up, putting away laundry. Things I did not used to do. It took her a bit to get used to things, and early on she even considered it mildly manipulative. Which, of course, it is. But in a good way. And she's come around to seeing it as a good thing.

You know what else? I think, when there's ritual, your body prepares. While she used to get sore from sex if too often (sometimes that meant 3 times/week), that's become a complete non-issue on the nearly-every-day schedule. That whole thing about drying up and stuff... if there was a candidate for that, she'd be it, with the cancer & chemo and other stuff that's done a number on her body. But her body is, how shall I say it, better prepared for sex than I recall... ever.

This is the woman who I gave serious thought to D just under a year ago. Wondering how to get past things, how to change the momentum of our lives. It took a real crisis to get the job done. I cannot emphasize that enough. Talk is cheap. But a bona-fide crisis that reaches to the core, of both of you, that can save your marriage.

Best of luck! Sounds like you ARE on your way!


----------



## Mylehigh

wilson said:


> One thing you can work on right now is strengthening the emotional connection in your relationship. You've mentioned doing things apart, like having your own hobbies and travel. You've mentioned having disagreements about stuff when you're together. Those kinds of things create emotional distance that makes intimacy harder for her. The closer she feels to you, the easier it will be for her to be intimate. But being emotionally close is also part of healthy marriage regardless. So even aside from the intimacy issues, you should be working towards ensuring a strong emotional connection if you are trying to make the marriage last. You may say you don't feel loved without physical intimacy, but I would bet she would say she doesn't feel loved without a strong emotional connection.
> 
> Try and behave more like you did when you were first dating. I'm guessing you guys spent a lot more time together at first. Making dinner was a cooperative effort with a lot of laughter. Weekends were spent doing fun activities. The environment was such that you guys enjoyed each other's company and looked forward to doing things together. Try to regain that. Instead of spending the weekend on a solo activity like riding your bike (or whatever), take her out to breakfast and then drive to some festival in a little town. If at the end of the day her heart is happy because she had a fun day with you, it will be much easier for her to be intimate.


Lots of my focus on here has been about what we are not doing. But yes, you make several good points here. But what I have not explained much up to now is that we DO go on dates, go out to dinner, catch a movie, go grab a happy hour drink and munchies, go for walks, take weekend get-aways, she tags along on several business trips with me throughout the year, we've gone on international vacations together several times in past few years... and as I said in an earlier post, I flirt with her, I tell her how cute she is, I tell her how beautiful she is, I tell her I love her, I listen when she talks, I cook as much as she does (probably more in past couple years) and I've cleaned up after our meals for many many years. When family comes over for meals, I work in the kitchen with her before and after the meals. We host holidays and spend hours and hours cooking together. Yet with all of that, the intimacy has not been important to her. She tells me that all of this stuff IS her intimacy and everything seems fine most of the time. What's so important about sex?!?

But when I type that out, someone will say - be yourself! Don't JUST be all about HER... so, yeah, I'm not ONLY doing those things and I'm not ONLY doing my own thing. Just trying to explain there is a lot of balance and she certainly is not neglected by me in a friendship or romantic way.


----------



## Blondilocks

As I said, she is getting her needs met and that is sufficient for her. If you stop meeting those needs, she will either strive to have you restore her equilibrium or she'll cut bait. You need to outline for her what incentives she needs to provide for you to restore her equilibrium. It's give and take on both sides.

So far today, I'd wager that you have told her you love her, she is beautiful and attractive and what a wonderful experience you enjoyed with her last night, blah-blah-blah. 

The cycle continues unless you break it.


----------



## Mylehigh

Blondilocks said:


> As I said, she is getting her needs met and that is sufficient for her. If you stop meeting those needs, she will either strive to have you restore her equilibrium or she'll cut bait. You need to outline for her what incentives she needs to provide for you to restore her equilibrium. It's give and take on both sides.
> 
> So far today, I'd wager that you have told her you love her, she is beautiful and attractive and what a wonderful experience you enjoyed with her last night, blah-blah-blah.
> 
> The cycle continues unless you break it.


Guilty as charged. :-/


----------



## farsidejunky

Mylehigh said:


> Guilty as charged. :-/


So...what do you think this subconsciously tells her? Your actions are saying that this arrangement is okay, even if your words say differently.

We men...we are stupid in some ways. We think we can use dialogue to improve sex, when in fact we are actually trying to negotiate desire.

Think about that. Every time you talk to her about sex, you are trying to negotiate your way into your wife's panties. How about that for needy?

Mylehigh, you can read my threads starting back in 2014. I came to TAM in a dead bedroom situation.

I started much like you, with ultimatums and negotiating, followed by showering her with attempts at rekindling our love. Guess how that worked? It didn't. All it did was build resentment from me and erode respect from her, all the while the cycle of appeasing when it was brought up continued...followed by a slow trickle to near nothing once again.

I then shifted to the opposite. I stopped doing the things I normally did for her.

I stopped complimenting her. I stopped engaging her in conversation. When she wanted a listening ear, I told her that I didn't really feel like listening and that maybe we could talk another night. One night, she said yes to sex earlier in the day. Then later that night, I began to initiate and she told me in an irritated voice, "Just hurry up." Needless to say, I stopped right there, looked her in the eye, and told her thanks but no thanks.

I learned intimately the following statements, all of which must be delivered in a calm manner:

"I'm sorry you feel that way", when she would tell me what she disliked about me. After all, she had been ignoring the things that bothered me for years. Why on earth would I even consider her position?

"I'm not okay with X (yelling, screaming, insults)", for when her behavior turned ****ty.

"Are you done?", for when I ran the risk of repeating myself, which I refused to do. "We covered that two nights ago. If you don't remember it, then you are proving my point of dismissing that which matters to me."

"You do what you feel you have to do. I will do the same." For when she threatened me with divorce.

I made sure I was out of the house at least three nights a week doing things I enjoyed. In my case MMA and jiu-jitsu classes, or just doing things that mattered to me. Sometimes I would just fall off the radar and not answer the phone when she called to see where I was. Why? Again, she had shown through actions that what I wanted did not matter. Why would I give her anything less?

What do all of those things have in common? They are not empty words, but concrete actions that clearly told my wife I respected myself too much to continue to be at the bottom of her priority list...which is exactly where you are with your wife.

The result? At first, she was LIVID. "This is all about sex." "Tit for tat." "I hate you."

My answer? "If you want more from me, you can start by doing more things for me." and "It is hard for me to consider what you want to be important when you have done the opposite to me for so long." To I hate you: "I'm sorry you feel that way."

This made it even worse...for a couple of months.

Then suddenly, it changed. Suddenly, the word "sorry", so long ago forgotten, was a regular thing when she snapped at me. Suddenly, sex was not just duty and infrequent, but legitimately passionate.

It took roughly 18 months from the time I initially told her that 'we got busy getting better or got busy divorcing', to wooing her, to showing her that I respected myself too much to allow her to continue to treat me that way free of consequence. I'm not going to lie; it sucked. It often had small, infrequent victories that were surrounded by constant setbacks.

That said, our sex life is a little more frequent than once a week now, but more importantly, it is actually fun. We skinny dipped and fooled around in our pool completely spontaneously last week. She makes a point to stop what she is doing at times to do nothing more than show me her boobs. Just the other day, I was mowing and she walked out to our deck, waved, and then flashed me.

This was the woman who would not have sex with me in January 2014.

Look, brother. I can't promise you can turn this around. But what I can promise is that you will learn to love yourself enough that you will stop holding the anger you have at yourself against your wife. Read that again. You are projecting the anger at yourself onto your wife. Why? Because deep down, you know you are choosing to remain in this situation.

What I can promise if you follow what I suggested is that, at a minimum, your wife will respect you again. She may not like you, but she will respect you. And from my POV, respect is far more important than being liked.

In addition, if your wife says nothing at you doing nothing for her, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your marriage is toast.

If she complains? Believe it or not, there is actually hope.

Either way...buckle up, my man. If you thought it was bumpy before, you have seen nothing yet.

That is, of course, assuming you actually take action. Or...you can continue to complain and negotiate your way to wet panties...but if you keep doing what you are doing...you will keep getting what you are getting.


----------



## Casual Observer

farsidejunky said:


> So...what do you think this subconsciously tells her? Your actions are saying that this arrangement is okay, even if your words say differently.
> 
> We men...we are stupid in some ways. We think we can use dialogue to improve sex, when in fact we are actually trying to negotiate desire.
> 
> Think about that. Every time you talk to her about sex, you are trying to negotiate your way into your wife's panties. How about that for needy?
> 
> Mylehigh, you can read my threads starting back in 2014. I came to TAM in a dead bedroom situation.
> 
> I started much like you, with ultimatums and negotiating, followed by showering her with attempts at rekindling our love. Guess how that worked? It didn't. All it did was build resentment from me and erode respect from her, all the while the cycle of appeasing when it was brought up continued...followed by a slow trickle to near nothing once again.
> 
> I then shifted to the opposite. I stopped doing the things I normally did for her.
> 
> I stopped complimenting her. I stopped engaging her in conversation. When she wanted a listening ear, I told her that I didn't really feel like listening and that maybe we could talk another night. One night, she said yes to sex earlier in the day. Then later that night, I began to initiate and she told me in an irritated voice, "Just hurry up." Needless to say, I stopped right there, looked her in the eye, and told her thanks but no thanks.
> 
> I learned intimately the following statements, all of which must be delivered in a calm manner:
> 
> "I'm sorry you feel that way", when she would tell me what she disliked about me. After all, she had been ignoring the things that bothered me for years. Why on earth would I even consider her position?
> 
> "I'm not okay with X (yelling, screaming, insults)", for when her behavior turned ****ty.
> 
> "Are you done?", for when I ran the risk of repeating myself, which I refused to do. "We covered that two nights ago. If you don't remember it, then you are proving my point of dismissing that which matters to me."
> 
> "You do what you feel you have to do. I will do the same." For when she threatened me with divorce.
> 
> I made sure I was out of the house at least three nights a week doing things I enjoyed. In my case MMA and jiu-jitsu classes, or just doing things that mattered to me. Sometimes I would just fall off the radar and not answer the phone when she called to see where I was. Why? Again, she had shown through actions that what I wanted did not matter. Why would I give her anything less?
> 
> What do all of those things have in common? They are not empty words, but concrete actions that clearly told my wife I respected myself too much to continue to be at the bottom of her priority list...which is exactly where you are with your wife.
> 
> The result? At first, she was LIVID. "This is all about sex." "Tit for tat." "I hate you."
> 
> My answer? "If you want more from me, you can start by doing more things for me." and "It is hard for me to consider what you want to be important when you have done the opposite to me for so long." To I hate you: "I'm sorry you feel that way."
> 
> This made it even worse...for a couple of months.
> 
> Then suddenly, it changed. Suddenly, the word "sorry", so long ago forgotten, was a regular thing when she snapped at me. Suddenly, sex was not just duty and infrequent, but legitimately passionate.
> 
> It took roughly 18 months from the time I initially told her that 'we got busy getting better or got busy divorcing', to wooing her, to showing her that I respected myself too much to allow her to continue to treat me that way free of consequence. I'm not going to lie; it sucked. It often had small, infrequent victories that were surrounded by constant setbacks.
> 
> That said, our sex life is a little more frequent than once a week now, but more importantly, it is actually fun. We skinny dipped and fooled around in our pool completely spontaneously last week. She makes a point to stop what she is doing at times to do nothing more than show me her boobs. Just the other day, I was mowing and she walked out to our deck, waved, and then flashed me.
> 
> This was the woman who would not have sex with me in January 2014.
> 
> Look, brother. I can't promise you can turn this around. But what I can promise is that you will learn to love yourself enough that you will stop holding the anger you have at yourself against your wife. Read that again. You are projecting the anger at yourself onto your wife. Why? Because deep down, you know you are choosing to remain in this situation.
> 
> What I can promise if you follow what I suggested is that, at a minimum, your wife will respect you again. She may not like you, but she will respect you. And from my POV, respect is far more important than being liked.
> 
> In addition, if your wife says nothing at you doing nothing for her, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your marriage is toast.
> 
> If she complains? Believe it or not, there is actually hope.
> 
> Either way...buckle up, my man. If you thought it was bumpy before, you have seen nothing yet.
> 
> That is, of course, assuming you actually take action. Or...you can continue to complain and negotiate your way to wet panties...but if you keep doing what you are doing...you will keep getting what you are getting.


Reading this reminds that there is no one-size-fits-all solution for seemingly the same issue. Because it's not the same issue. As men, we want to treat the symptom, which is, in many threads, not enough sex or not quality sex or combinations of the two. But that's just a symptom, and that symptom can be the result of many very, very different issues. And even when it's a similar issue, the variability in how people (women) view issues in general will be huge.

For my wife, was the bigger problem not enough sex (or more appropriately, her attitude about sex) or that she doesn't want to be told what to do (and will defensively see anything she disagrees with as being told what to do)? I tried so many things in so many ways, but ultimately until there was a crisis, a major crisis, nothing could change her world view.


----------



## Cynthia

Mylehigh said:


> I've seen a few comments on here that suggest it is hopeless for me, essentially suggesting that I will be deceived and it won't last, and I understand why based on everything I've written. I guess the hopium is pretty potent stuff for me! But we've done some heart to heart talking and she seems to recognize that we REALLY DO have a lot on the line now, so maybe our crisis has arrived. She also apparently recognized last night that if the worst she has to do is give herself openly to me, then perhaps it ain't so bad.


Do not fall back into the cycle. You are the one who wants change and are therefore the only one who can bring it about. You have to change how you are behaving and how you respond or nothing will get any better. Make sure you follow through on marriage counseling. After your first appointment, if you like the therapist, make twelve more appointments (six months) and stick with it. Do not hold back on how miserable you are and how much you want a loving, connected, dynamic relationship with your wife, while you are not going to continue with the same old dry, unhealthy, dysfunctional relationship.


----------



## Mylehigh

CynthiaDe said:


> Do not fall back into the cycle. You are the one who wants change and are therefore the only one who can bring it about. You have to change how you are behaving and how you respond or nothing will get any better. Make sure you follow through on marriage counseling. After your first appointment, if you like the therapist, make twelve more appointments (six months) and stick with it. Do not hold back on how miserable you are and how much you want a loving, connected, dynamic relationship with your wife, while you are not going to continue with the same old dry, unhealthy, dysfunctional relationship.


So what I am hearing here in the last several posts is that I should not go along with her most recent attempt to 'change.' Please keep in mind that I started a very pointed conversation the evening before I first posted here, and that conversation included statements about how she gets what she needs and disrespects and disregards my needs. I said I can't and won't live like this forever and that it absolutely must change. There were moments of defensiveness, aggressiveness, tears, you name it. 

Fast forward 48 hours, and she initiates sex without any hinting or nagging by me, delivers the goods quite nicely, and then showers me with affectionate flirting and reminders of how nice it was the night before. Today I was asked if maybe we could share a glass of wine tonight and see if we can't replay a little of the magic from the other night. Hmmm... sounds like a pretty nice offer to me. Are you folks saying I give the cold shoulder to that?!? I guess that is what I would do if I wanted absolute assurance that we will fail.

Wouldn't it simply be self-destructive to deny her offerings at this particular stage as a way of protesting history? Yes - the word history reaches into about 96 hours ago... but still, I believe in forward movement at pretty much all times. You call it falling back into the cycle? Isn't she showing me the behavior and attitude that I told her I want from her? I've raised kids and pets and I understand subconscious messaging, training, teaching etc., but she is not a child or a pet.

It makes sense to me to ride this positive wave now, and then when it likely slides back to same old patterns, I let her know by my actions that I am dead serious about it all. If I were to change my behavior NOW, that just seems like a counter-productive and destructive response to her attempt at doing what I asked her to do.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Mylehigh said:


> CynthiaDe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do not fall back into the cycle. You are the one who wants change and are therefore the only one who can bring it about. You have to change how you are behaving and how you respond or nothing will get any better. Make sure you follow through on marriage counseling. After your first appointment, if you like the therapist, make twelve more appointments (six months) and stick with it. Do not hold back on how miserable you are and how much you want a loving, connected, dynamic relationship with your wife, while you are not going to continue with the same old dry, unhealthy, dysfunctional relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> So what I am hearing here in the last several posts is that I should not go along with her most recent attempt to 'change.' Please keep in mind that I started a very pointed conversation the evening before I first posted here, and that conversation included statements about how she gets what she needs and disrespects and disregards my needs. I said I can't and won't live like this forever and that it absolutely must change. There were moments of defensiveness, aggressiveness, tears, you name it.
> 
> Fast forward 48 hours, and she initiates sex without any hinting or nagging by me, delivers the goods quite nicely, and then showers me with affectionate flirting and reminders of how nice it was the night before. Today I was asked if maybe we could share a glass of wine tonight and see if we can't replay a little of the magic from the other night. Hmmm... sounds like a pretty nice offer to me. Are you folks saying I give the cold shoulder to that?!? I guess that is what I would do if I wanted absolute assurance that we will fail.
> 
> Wouldn't it simply be self-destructive to deny her offerings at this particular stage as a way of protesting history? Yes - the word history reaches into about 96 hours ago... but still, I believe in forward movement at pretty much all times. You call it falling back into the cycle? Isn't she showing me the behavior and attitude that I told her I want from her? I've raised kids and pets and I understand subconscious messaging, training, teaching etc., but she is not a child or a pet.
> 
> It makes sense to me to ride this positive wave now, and then when it likely slides back to same old patterns, I let her know by my actions that I am dead serious about it all. If I were to change my behavior NOW, that just seems like a counter-productive and destructive response to her attempt at doing what I asked her to do.
Click to expand...

I think you go forward from here, accepting her efforts and being hopeful, but also being determined not to back slide. So you keep communication open, you keep seeing how it goes, and you adjust your reactions to the progress or lack of as you go forward.


----------



## Blondilocks

Is this different from every other time you've had "the talk"?


----------



## BluesPower

Mylehigh said:


> So what I am hearing here in the last several posts is that I should not go along with her most recent attempt to 'change.' Please keep in mind that I started a very pointed conversation the evening before I first posted here, and that conversation included statements about how she gets what she needs and disrespects and disregards my needs. I said I can't and won't live like this forever and that it absolutely must change. There were moments of defensiveness, aggressiveness, tears, you name it.
> 
> Fast forward 48 hours, and she initiates sex without any hinting or nagging by me, delivers the goods quite nicely, and then showers me with affectionate flirting and reminders of how nice it was the night before. Today I was asked if maybe we could share a glass of wine tonight and see if we can't replay a little of the magic from the other night. Hmmm... sounds like a pretty nice offer to me. Are you folks saying I give the cold shoulder to that?!? I guess that is what I would do if I wanted absolute assurance that we will fail.


I think either some posters missed the GOOD update or the are cautioning you about what to expect in the future...

What I think they should be saying and what I am going to say is this.

You had a talk with your wife, a talk by the way that you should have had with her 25 to 30 years ago when you get having sex once or twice a month, by the WAY!!!

So you finally had a real talk with her, and as far as anyone can tell, the talk put the "fear of god" in her. Good in a way, better would be that this is not an issue. Better would be a woman that loves and desires you because she WANTS TO **** YOU!!!

But, over all her "waking up" is a good thing...

So... What happens in a year, what happens in 6 months, 3 months, next month...

What many here are worried about, for you, is that you will be playing hand puppets in a month and wondering why you fell for her BS one MORE TIME...

Do you see that view of the situation?????


----------



## wilson

Mylehigh said:


> Wouldn't it simply be self-destructive to deny her offerings at this particular stage as a way of protesting history? Yes - the word history reaches into about 96 hours ago... but still, I believe in forward movement at pretty much all times. You call it falling back into the cycle? Isn't she showing me the behavior and attitude that I told her I want from her? I've raised kids and pets and I understand subconscious messaging, training, teaching etc., but she is not a child or a pet.


Unfortunately, there's no right answer. Maybe giving her the cold shoulder will freak her out and she'll try harder, or maybe it will crush whatever confidence she has left. It's a risky strategy since there's a chance it could completely backfire. So it might be more of a last-chance kind of thing where you have nothing to lose. Since you have counseling coming up, I think it would be best to keep being supportive so your relationship is in a positive place. If you are cold, she will likely want to spend significant time discussing how she tried and you turned your back.

As you've obviously experienced, being loving doesn't necessarily increase intimacy. Sometimes having some harshness and mystery makes her see you more as a lover than just a nice guy. You might want to read "Married Man's Sex Life Primer". It's a book that talks about ways to ensure your relationship stays sexualized rather than just being more at a friend level. As an example, you might want to be more sexually direct. Rather than saying she looks nice, say her ass looks great and you can't wait to get your hands on it. Stuff like that keeps her in a sexual mindset and helps her think of herself in a sexual way. There's a chance she may get offended, but it avoids any confusion where she might think she can be in a non-sexual marriage.


----------



## Casual Observer

Mylehigh said:


> So what I am hearing here in the last several posts is that I should not go along with her most recent attempt to 'change.' Please keep in mind that I started a very pointed conversation the evening before I first posted here, and that conversation included statements about how she gets what she needs and disrespects and disregards my needs. I said I can't and won't live like this forever and that it absolutely must change. There were moments of defensiveness, aggressiveness, tears, you name it.
> 
> Fast forward 48 hours, and she initiates sex without any hinting or nagging by me, delivers the goods quite nicely, and then showers me with affectionate flirting and reminders of how nice it was the night before. Today I was asked if maybe we could share a glass of wine tonight and see if we can't replay a little of the magic from the other night. Hmmm... sounds like a pretty nice offer to me. Are you folks saying I give the cold shoulder to that?!? I guess that is what I would do if I wanted absolute assurance that we will fail.
> 
> Wouldn't it simply be self-destructive to deny her offerings at this particular stage as a way of protesting history? Yes - the word history reaches into about 96 hours ago... but still, I believe in forward movement at pretty much all times. You call it falling back into the cycle? Isn't she showing me the behavior and attitude that I told her I want from her? I've raised kids and pets and I understand subconscious messaging, training, teaching etc., but she is not a child or a pet.
> 
> It makes sense to me to ride this positive wave now, and then when it likely slides back to same old patterns, I let her know by my actions that I am dead serious about it all. If I were to change my behavior NOW, that just seems like a counter-productive and destructive response to her attempt at doing what I asked her to do.


Ride the wave, with a reminder that this is exactly what’s been missing and ask her what it will take to keep this going. Remind her of the consequences otherwise. Ask her if she thinks this is a way forward or a temporary thing to keep you from thinking about D. And make sure any change on her part was a result of crisis-thinking and not manipulation.


----------



## Mr.Married

Mylehigh said:


> So what I am hearing here in the last several posts is that I should not go along with her most recent attempt to 'change.' Please keep in mind that I started a very pointed conversation the evening before I first posted here, and that conversation included statements about how she gets what she needs and disrespects and disregards my needs. I said I can't and won't live like this forever and that it absolutely must change. There were moments of defensiveness, aggressiveness, tears, you name it.
> 
> Fast forward 48 hours, and she initiates sex without any hinting or nagging by me, delivers the goods quite nicely, and then showers me with affectionate flirting and reminders of how nice it was the night before. Today I was asked if maybe we could share a glass of wine tonight and see if we can't replay a little of the magic from the other night. Hmmm... sounds like a pretty nice offer to me. Are you folks saying I give the cold shoulder to that?!? I guess that is what I would do if I wanted absolute assurance that we will fail.
> 
> Wouldn't it simply be self-destructive to deny her offerings at this particular stage as a way of protesting history? Yes - the word history reaches into about 96 hours ago... but still, I believe in forward movement at pretty much all times. You call it falling back into the cycle? Isn't she showing me the behavior and attitude that I told her I want from her? I've raised kids and pets and I understand subconscious messaging, training, teaching etc., but she is not a child or a pet.
> 
> It makes sense to me to ride this positive wave now, and then when it likely slides back to same old patterns, I let her know by my actions that I am dead serious about it all. If I were to change my behavior NOW, that just seems like a counter-productive and destructive response to her attempt at doing what I asked her to do.


I say you go forward with it but keep in mind that it is very possible to be short lived.

I don't believe she has processed it to the full extent and this is just a reaction.

Flipping the sexual script in her mind in such a short span ..... I don't buy it but I hope I am wrong.

Just in case ...... just be prepared for it and don't punish yourself over it.


----------



## Blondilocks

You're in the first part of the cycle right now. Watch and see what evolves. If it starts to slide back to the same ol', same ol', re-read Farside's post starting with "I stopped complimenting her..." and implement his game plan. This is how you break the cycle.

Everyone would love to think that she finally got it; but, only time will tell. In the meantime, don't rest on your laurels thinking the problem is solved. Be vigilant in your observations and steadfast in your resolve to change this dynamic. Good luck.


----------



## Mylehigh

BluesPower said:


> I think either some posters missed the GOOD update or the are cautioning you about what to expect in the future...
> 
> What I think they should be saying and what I am going to say is this.
> 
> You had a talk with your wife, *a talk by the way that you should have had with her 25 to 30 years ago* when you get having sex once or twice a month, by the WAY!!!
> 
> So you finally had a real talk with her, and as far as anyone can tell, the talk put the "fear of god" in her. Good in a way, better would be that this is not an issue. Better would be a woman that loves and desires you because she WANTS TO **** YOU!!!
> 
> But, over all her "waking up" is a good thing...
> 
> So... *What happens in a year, what happens in 6 months, 3 months, next month...
> *
> What many here are worried about, for you, is that you will be playing hand puppets in a month and wondering why you fell for her BS one MORE TIME...
> 
> Do you see that view of the situation?????


I don't recall at this point if I said this before in this thread, but I've had this conversation with her many many times over our 30 year marriage. I used to get really angry from the rejection, and we would lie back to back in bed as I would lecture her about the bait and switch condition of our sex lives, about how I couldn't understand why she doesn't want to do something that we both enjoy every time we do it blah blah blah. I would get downright angry! Over the years, the conversation has recurred many times. It's taken a more mature form over time (on my part) and has had relatively short periods of effectiveness. 

I totally understand the concept of what happens next means everything. I'm just thinking that now, during the actual period of positive change, be it 6, 3 or 1 month, is not the time to show her that I can live without it.

I think you are speaking like a classic guy here - equating love with desire and the want to have sex. How can they possibly not be one and the same??? I think that way too, so I'm not criticizing or disagreeing, just noticing how we are all part of the same primal brotherhood. Problem is, low-desire women don't see the world of love like that. I believe this is true. It's not just an excuse coming from a guy who is married to a LD woman or a guy who's wife would blow a movie star the moment she had the chance. She doesn't see sex as a requisite component of love. So she would argue that she shows me how she loves me in thousands of other ways, and why is that not enough?


----------



## OnTheFly

Mylehigh said:


> So she would argue that she shows me how she loves me in thousands of other ways, and why is that not enough?


....because that was not the original deal.....is what I'd say to her and is what I've said to my wife.

I know it, she knows it, you know, everybody knows it. The one thing that is unique in a marriage that is absent (hopefully) from regular friendships is sexual activity. Whether a day after the vows were uttered or 30yrs...(unless by mutual consent, where both parties don't want sex, they aren't obliged to), it doesn't matter. To change the deal now requires 2/3 vote in the senate and 51% of the house....and that ain't happening.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Mylehigh said:


> I don't recall at this point if I said this before in this thread, but I've had this conversation with her many many times over our 30 year marriage. I used to get really angry from the rejection, and we would lie back to back in bed as I would lecture her about the bait and switch condition of our sex lives, about how I couldn't understand why she doesn't want to do something that we both enjoy every time we do it blah blah blah. I would get downright angry! Over the years, the conversation has recurred many times. It's taken a more mature form over time (on my part) and has had relatively short periods of effectiveness.
> 
> I totally understand the concept of what happens next means everything. *I'm just thinking that now, during the actual period of positive change, be it 6, 3 or 1 month, is not the time to show her that I can live without it.*
> 
> I think you are speaking like a classic guy here - equating love with desire and the want to have sex. How can they possibly not be one and the same??? I think that way too, so I'm not criticizing or disagreeing, just noticing how we are all part of the same primal brotherhood. Problem is, low-desire women don't see the world of love like that. I believe this is true. It's not just an excuse coming from a guy who is married to a LD woman or a guy who's wife would blow a movie star the moment she had the chance. She doesn't see sex as a requisite component of love. So she would argue that she shows me how she loves me in thousands of other ways, and why is that not enough?


Although I'm not so sure about the phrasing there, there is some truth to the idea that if she makes an honest effort and you reject it, she'll never try again. Riding the tide of proposed improvement certainly doesn't guarantee success, and tbh, if it does success, it'll be the exception, not the rule, but that doesn't mean you should follow the alternative that will be the last nail in the coffin... unless of course, that's what you want.


----------



## Blondilocks

"So she would argue that she shows me how she loves me in thousands of other ways, and why is that not enough?".

Short answer: Because they are not YOUR love language. Have you and your wife taken the Love Language quiz? The 5 love languages by Gary Chapman.


----------



## Mylehigh

Blondilocks said:


> You're in the first part of the cycle right now. Watch and see what evolves. If it starts to slide back to the same ol', same ol', re-read Farside's post starting with "I stopped complimenting her..." and implement his game plan. This is how you break the cycle.
> 
> Everyone would love to think that she finally got it; but, only time will tell. In the meantime, don't rest on your laurels thinking the problem is solved. Be vigilant in your observations and steadfast in your resolve to change this dynamic. Good luck.


Thanks for your good wishes. Here's to hopium! :beer:


----------



## Mylehigh

OnTheFly said:


> ....because that was not the original deal.....is what I'd say to her and is what I've said to my wife.
> 
> I know it, she knows it, you know, everybody knows it. The one thing that is unique in a marriage that is absent (hopefully) from regular friendships is sexual activity. Whether a day after the vows were uttered or 30yrs...(unless by mutual consent, where both parties don't want sex, they aren't obliged to), it doesn't matter. To change the deal now requires 2/3 vote in the senate and 51% of the house....and that ain't happening.


Great point and it made me LOL. I needed that!


----------



## MEM2020

Mylehigh,

I am not posting as a mod, just a fellow traveler. 

You have a good chance of achieving success if you apply the same approach to this aspect of your life as to your others. This is a specialized skill set you simply don’t yet have. Not the mechanics of sex, per se. But the management of relationship chemistry that results in your wife WANTING to please you. 

FarSideJunky has successfully traversed this terrain. Like you, he is high functioning, self aware and secure enough to assess reality without first donning a set of ego protective goggles that distort the landscape so completely as to make progress impossible. 

You will get a lot of good advice and help here from the group. I would like to mention that I have personally found Faithful Wife to be very helpful. 

Rule 1: All partner feedback has a temporal component to it - whether or not we want it to. 

Backward focused feedback all has the same subtext: You suck because you did or did not do ..... fill in the blank
Forward looking - done well has a different subtext: It would be nice if, or I really like it when you do ..... fill in the blank

Rule 2: Feedback also has both a duration and anxiety level to it. ALL partner feedback can be delivered in under thirty seconds - if you plan out your message. A soft touch to the face - lock eye contact from close in and then in a calm voice. The opposite of this approach is to inflict long, anxious, rambling critiques upon a partner who understands your basic point within the first few sentences and then sits there tuning you out til you finish. 

Rule 2: Is about leadership. Clear, concise direction, delivered in the same format as you would want to receive them, situation reversed. 

Rule 3: Intimacy: The real thing - is about truth, and sincerity. Like every man, you want each sexual experience to be physically great for B2 (that’s your wife’s label on TAM). You want her to have the same intense finish that you do. Maybe she typically does, maybe she pretends to, so you stop complaining. No way to know from the outside. 

That thing - where you reference complaining afterward, about how if it is so great for both of you, why doesn’t it happen more often. If it really was as good for her, as it is for you - do you think she’d risk a divorce over frequency?

Embrace reality. Your mission is to figure out how to make it as good for her as possible and then accept whatever that result is, without requiring her to pretend. 

This subject understandably makes you anxious. It’s been a painful part of your life. Anxiety has one universal side effect, it causes us to focus inward, not outward. The most unattractive thing you can do - is talk - while anxious. Get HER to talk, if you can. It will take a while. 

Me - I have a prompt - I apply it - and then let nature take its course. My prompt is this: There’s nothing you can say to me, that’s true, that will make me love you less. 






Mylehigh62 said:


> I don't recall at this point if I said this before in this thread, but I've had this conversation with her many many times over our 30 year marriage. I used to get really angry from the rejection, and we would lie back to back in bed as I would lecture her about the bait and switch condition of our sex lives, about how I couldn't understand why she doesn't want to do something that we both enjoy every time we do it blah blah blah. I would get downright angry! Over the years, the conversation has recurred many times. It's taken a more mature form over time (on my part) and has had relatively short periods of effectiveness.
> 
> I totally understand the concept of what happens next means everything. I'm just thinking that now, during the actual period of positive change, be it 6, 3 or 1 month, is not the time to show her that I can live without it.
> 
> I think you are speaking like a classic guy here - equating love with desire and the want to have sex. How can they possibly not be one and the same??? I think that way too, so I'm not criticizing or disagreeing, just noticing how we are all part of the same primal brotherhood. Problem is, low-desire women don't see the world of love like that. I believe this is true. It's not just an excuse coming from a guy who is married to a LD woman or a guy who's wife would blow a movie star the moment she had the chance. She doesn't see sex as a requisite component of love. So she would argue that she shows me how she loves me in thousands of other ways, and why is that not enough?


----------



## BluesPower

Mylehigh said:


> I don't recall at this point if I said this before in this thread, but I've had this conversation with her many many times over our 30 year marriage. I used to get really angry from the rejection, and we would lie back to back in bed as I would lecture her about the bait and switch condition of our sex lives, about how I couldn't understand why she doesn't want to do something that we both enjoy every time we do it blah blah blah. I would get downright angry! Over the years, the conversation has recurred many times. It's taken a more mature form over time (on my part) and has had relatively short periods of effectiveness.
> 
> I totally understand the concept of what happens next means everything. I'm just thinking that now, during the actual period of positive change, be it 6, 3 or 1 month, is not the time to show her that I can live without it.
> 
> I think you are speaking like a classic guy here - equating love with desire and the want to have sex. How can they possibly not be one and the same??? I think that way too, so I'm not criticizing or disagreeing, just noticing how we are all part of the same primal brotherhood. Problem is, low-desire women don't see the world of love like that. I believe this is true. It's not just an excuse coming from a guy who is married to a LD woman or a guy who's wife would blow a movie star the moment she had the chance. She doesn't see sex as a requisite component of love. So she would argue that she shows me how she loves me in thousands of other ways, and why is that not enough?


I don't recall, if I said it on your thread or another.

No offense, but you are clueless about women and sex, sorry but you are...

Some women, and apparently some men, will say that sex is not love, type of bull****...

Here is the deal, I don't want the other kind of love, with a woman that I love, if it does not involve sex, and frankly lots of it.

Yes I get that you can have sex without love, but I cannot be in LOVE and not be having a robust sex life.

This is the key difference in men like you and me. Men like you are too scared to divorce, because you are so in lurve and may not find that anywhere else, as if that was remotely true.

Men like me who are very loving, and love deep, will to drop our LURVE like a hot potato if they are not into, and desire to have sex with us. Now, I have never had that problem with a woman, but maybe that is because I let them know up front that sex was very important, and any kind of lack of sex was not OK. So, I have never been in less than very sexually fulfilling relationship in my entire life and I am just a little younger than you...

See how that is different?

About the talk, well maybe you actually gave off some type of vibe that you might have the balls to divorce her if your sex life did not improve... Maybe that is it, or maybe she is placating you until you fall asleep again?

Like many have said, lets see what this looks like in a month, 3 months, 6 months, a year...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Well, he held off longer than usual before giving the self aggrandizing, canned "you clueless, pathetic, weak bastard" speech.


----------



## Blondilocks

Since Farside and Faithful Wife have this covered, the rest of us can just mosey on down the road.


----------



## MEM2020

I apologize for my earlier post - which has now been edited.




Blondilocks said:


> Since Farside and Faithful Wife have this covered, the rest of us can just mosey on down the road.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Blondilocks said:


> Since Farside and Faithful Wife have this covered, the rest of us can just mosey on down the road.


Huh? No way! This guy needs all of our help. Where did this come from? Get in here and tell these people your thoughts chicka! We all need them! :x


----------



## Mylehigh

BluesPower said:


> I don't recall, if I said it on your thread or another.
> 
> *No offense*, but you are clueless about women and sex, sorry but you are...
> 
> Some women, and apparently some men, will say that sex is not love, type of bull****...
> 
> Here is the deal, *I don't want the other kind of love*, with a woman that I love, if it does not involve sex, and frankly lots of it.
> 
> Yes I get that you can have sex without love, *but I cannot be in LOVE* and not be having a robust sex life.
> 
> This is the key difference in men like you and me. *Men like you are too scared to divorce*, because you are so in lurve and may not find that anywhere else, as if that was remotely true.
> 
> *Men like me a very loving*, and will to drop our LURVE like a hot potato if they care not into, and desire to have sex with us. Now, I have never had that problem with a woman, *but maybe that is because I let them know up front that sex was very important*, and any kind of lack of sex was not OK. So, I have never been in less than very sexually fulfilling relationship in my entire life and I am just a little younger than you...
> 
> See how that is different?
> 
> About the talk, well maybe you actually gave off some type of vibe that you might have the balls to divorce her if your sex life did not improve... Maybe that is it, or maybe she is placating you until you fall asleep again?
> 
> Like many have said, lets see what this looks like in a month, 3 months, 6 months, a year...


Seriously? "No offense" is something you say before you say something that you obviously know is offensive? LOL 

It sounds to me like _thou dost protest too much_ on many fronts.


----------



## Mylehigh

Faithful Wife said:


> Huh? No way! This guy needs all of our help. Where did this come from? Get in here and tell these people your thoughts chicka! We all need them! :x


Guess I missed something here?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Mylehigh said:


> Guess I missed something here?


Me too? I don't know where that came from.


----------



## MEM2020

Unless I say otherwise - all my posts on this thread are made as a citizen of Earth - not a moderator of the site. 

The hardest thing to do - in an unsatisfying marriage - is to consciously choose to focus on inspiration, as opposed to intimidation. 

If you ask questions like: Are you doing x,y,z to stop me from thinking about divorcing you? 

Use of the word divorce, in the current context really is a type of intimidation. I’m not saying it should never come to that. What I am saying is that - Mylehigh - has not yet developed his inspirational skill set. The beauty of inspiration, is that it can be used over and over - to delightful effect. 

I DO think that Mylehigh needs to develop an inspirational toolkit. For instance, B2 is keenly aware that he loves her. I’m nearly certain he shows and tells her this way too frequently, with the result being that she feels very safe de prioritizing him. 

Note: Any mention of divorce, that happens in the same general timeframe of routinely telling his wife how much he loves her - creates a huge credibility issue. Either the love is insincere or the threat is. Either way, respect is damaged. 

Mylehigh needs to decide what he wants. 
- A marriage that is saturated with reassuring protocol, quick pecks on the check, the reflexive use of: I love you going out the door, etc. 
Or
- Less reflexive use of reassurance protocol in both directions - and as a result a more passionate marriage









Casual Observer said:


> Ride the wave, with a reminder that this is exactly what’s been missing and ask her what it will take to keep this going. Remind her of the consequences otherwise. Ask her if she thinks this is a way forward or a temporary thing to keep you from thinking about D. And make sure any change on her part was a result of crisis-thinking and not manipulation.


----------



## wilson

Mylehigh said:


> But what I have not explained much up to now is that we DO go on dates, go out to dinner, catch a movie, go grab a happy hour drink and munchies, go for walks, take weekend get-aways, she tags along on several business trips with me throughout the year, we've gone on international vacations together several times in past few years... and as I said in an earlier post, I flirt with her, I tell her how cute she is, I tell her how beautiful she is, I tell her I love her, I listen when she talks, I cook as much as she does (probably more in past couple years) and I've cleaned up after our meals for many many years. When family comes over for meals, I work in the kitchen with her before and after the meals. We host holidays and spend hours and hours cooking together. Yet with all of that, the intimacy has not been important to her. She tells me that all of this stuff IS her intimacy and everything seems fine most of the time. What's so important about sex?!?.


It sounds like she's lucky to have you. How much of a two-way street is this? Forgetting about sex for the moment, does she do similar things like this that make you feel special? It sounds like you put her on a pedestal. Does she also put you on a pedestal?

If this is out of balance, this is the kind of stuff you might want to cut back on when intimacy is not part of the relationship. If you're treating her this well and she's not reciprocating romantically, it probably would be productive to not make her feel so loved and special. Take her off the pedestal. She should feel a bit out-of-sorts in the relationship when you're not happy.



Mylehigh said:


> She tells me that all of this stuff IS her intimacy and everything seems fine most of the time. What's so important about sex?!?.


I suspect that you might always have to take charge with intimacy. She may rarely initiate, but hopefully she gets to the point where she's very receptive. Like, if she's saying stressed about something trivial, rather than think sex is off the table, say "That's too bad. Now get undressed and get into bed so I can make you feel better." If you have the mindset that you are the driver of sex in the relationship, you're less likely to feel rejected or resentful if she doesn't display initiative.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes to this. 

That doesn’t mean you ought be passive aggressive. Most likely B2 will occasionally ask: are you mad at me?

The point to make is that your goal is to replace - reflexive - kind of shallow interaction with - real connection. And while that transition may be uncomfortable, it is important. 





wilson said:


> It sounds like she's lucky to have you. How much of a two-way street is this? Forgetting about sex for the moment, does she do similar things like this that make you feel special? It sounds like you put her on a pedestal. Does she also put you on a pedestal?
> 
> If this is out of balance, this is the kind of stuff you might want to cut back on when intimacy is not part of the relationship. If you're treating her this well and she's not reciprocating romantically, it probably would be productive to not make her feel so loved and special. Take her off the pedestal. She should feel a bit out-of-sorts in the relationship when you're not happy.
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that you might always have to take charge with intimacy. She may rarely initiate, but hopefully she gets to the point where she's very receptive. Like, if she's saying stressed about something trivial, rather than think sex is off the table, say "That's too bad. Now get undressed and get into bed so I can make you feel better." If you have the mindset that you are the driver of sex in the relationship, you're less likely to feel rejected or resentful if she doesn't display initiative.


----------



## Mylehigh

MEM2020 said:


> Unless I say otherwise - all my posts on this thread are made as a citizen of Earth - not a moderator of the site.
> 
> The hardest thing to do - in an unsatisfying marriage - is to consciously choose to focus on inspiration, as opposed to intimidation.
> 
> If you ask questions like: Are you doing x,y,z to stop me from thinking about divorcing you?
> 
> Use of the word divorce, in the current context really is a type of intimidation. I’m not saying it should never come to that. What I am saying is that - Mylehigh - has not yet developed his inspirational skill set. The beauty of inspiration, is that it can be used over and over - to delightful effect.
> 
> I DO think that Mylehigh needs to develop an inspirational toolkit. For instance, B2 is keenly aware that he loves her. I’m nearly certain he shows and tells her this way too frequently, with the result being that she feels very safe de prioritizing him.
> 
> Note: Any mention of divorce, that happens in the same general timeframe of routinely telling his wife how much he loves her - creates a huge credibility issue. Either the love is insincere or the threat is. Either way, respect is damaged.
> 
> Mylehigh needs to decide what he wants.
> - A marriage that is saturated with reassuring protocol, quick pecks on the check, the reflexive use of: I love you going out the door, etc.
> Or
> - Less reflexive use of reassurance protocol in both directions - and as a result a more passionate marriage


I like the wording: saturated with reassuring protocols... This is for sure something that has been a big part of our interaction dynamics for a long long time.

I think we have spoken the D word less then 3 or 4 times each, ever. It is saved for special occasions and those are quite rare.

I also find the concept of inspirational toolkit to be interesting. Introspectively speaking, I think you are right. I don't really have one.


----------



## Mylehigh

wilson said:


> It sounds like she's lucky to have you. How much of a two-way street is this? Forgetting about sex for the moment, does she do similar things like this that make you feel special? It sounds like you put her on a pedestal. Does she also put you on a pedestal?
> 
> If this is out of balance, this is the kind of stuff you might want to cut back on when intimacy is not part of the relationship. If you're treating her this well and she's not reciprocating romantically, it probably would be productive to not make her feel so loved and special. Take her off the pedestal. She should feel a bit out-of-sorts in the relationship when you're not happy.
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that you might always have to take charge with intimacy. She may rarely initiate, but hopefully she gets to the point where she's very receptive. Like, if she's saying stressed about something trivial, rather than think sex is off the table, say "That's too bad. Now get undressed and get into bed so I can make you feel better." If you have the mindset that you are the driver of sex in the relationship, you're less likely to feel rejected or resentful if she doesn't display initiative.


Yeah, well, I guess I've likely painted the picture that she is lucky to have me, but of course we all have our moments. In the long run, she thinks we do the things I listed too infrequently if anything. And no - I never feel like I am put on a pedestal. She does seem to appreciate me, but pedestal? Probably not.

I've tried to be as assertive as your example above - get undressed and get into bed... but that doesn't do much in terms of producing results. She's probably quite sure she is in control. I've said to her in non-confrontational discussions that I cannot even begin to imagine what it would be like to know that if I decided I wanted sex, I just have to drop a breadcrumb or two and she comes calling. It's never been like that with us. I've always pursued and she has always been the one with the red light/green light switch in her hand. Getting mad over here again seeing myself type these words. Ugh!


----------



## MEM2020

And that last sentence is why I’m optimistic about your outcome. If you didn’t have a good mix of analytical and interpersonal skills, you wouldn’t have the lifestyle you describe. Your ease at recognizing what you are good at and maybe not so skilled at - is unusual and amazingly helpful. 

This - is just one more skill set you will add. Worst case (and unlikely case) it doesn’t work with B2. If she just isn’t able to move the needle to place you can accept - your future partner will prize this greatly. 

I personally try to remind myself to stick with two overlapping guide stars: 

Am I using the golden rule, or am I straying into conduct that I would dislike having done to me?
Am I trying to change M2’s behavior, or her core self - the former is fine - the latter is cruel. While this is a subset of the golden rule, it is a subtle but crazily important subset.

The hardest thing to do - if it comes to it - will be to realize that you two love each other but simply aren’t compatible. 






Mylehigh said:


> I like the wording: saturated with reassuring protocols... This is for sure something that has been a big part of our interaction dynamics for a long long time.
> 
> I think we have spoken the D word less then 3 or 4 times each, ever. It is saved for special occasions and those are quite rare.
> 
> I also find the concept of inspirational toolkit to be interesting. Introspectively speaking, I think you are right. I don't really have one.


----------



## MEM2020

Mylehigh,

I’m as fond of lusting and being lusted after as the average bear. That said, raw, spontaneous lust can be a fickle friend. I use (D) - to signify the desire to please. And D’, to signify the desire to AVOID displeasing.

A key issue is that by continuously radiating reassurance at B2 you have convinced her that she doesn’t need to put much effort into D, and is completely comfortable with a low D’ score. A low D score means she rarely initiates acts intended to please you. And a low D’ score means she is perfectly comfortable rejecting you - despite knowing that is a big issue.





Mylehigh said:


> Yeah, well, I guess I've likely painted the picture that she is lucky to have me, but of course we all have our moments. In the long run, she thinks we do the things I listed too infrequently if anything. And no - I never feel like I am put on a pedestal. She does seem to appreciate me, but pedestal? Probably not.
> 
> I've tried to be as assertive as your example above - get undressed and get into bed... but that doesn't do much in terms of producing results. She's probably quite sure she is in control. I've said to her in non-confrontational discussions that I cannot even begin to imagine what it would be like to know that if I decided I wanted sex, I just have to drop a breadcrumb or two and she comes calling. It's never been like that with us. I've always pursued and she has always been the one with the red light/green light switch in her hand. Getting mad over here again seeing myself type these words. Ugh!


----------



## Mylehigh

MEM2020 said:


> The hardest thing to do - if it comes to it - will be to realize that you two love each other but simply aren’t compatible.


I've felt this way many times and in many varied situations throughout our lives.  But maintaining an intact family for my kids, parents, wife, and who knows who else, has usually veered me away from focusing on that. 

I am very duty driven.


----------



## MEM2020

Your commitment level is very clear. You might consider framing any precipice type conversation as follows: 

If we end up parting ways, it won’t be because I don’t love you, but rather that I’ve concluded you don’t really love me as a wife - loves a husband. 

What you ought to be looking for - is the amount B2 is considering YOU when she makes decisions that impact both of you. 

Step (1) for you, is to be home less and be less reflexively reassuring when you are home. Give her some space to decide whether she wants to fight for the marriage. 

And if she starts doing a bunch of stuff that isn’t in your love language, I would just politely say: I really prefer that you stop putting effort into x,y,z. That isn’t my love language and it doesn’t make me feel more connected to you when you do that. 




Mylehigh said:


> I've felt this way many times and in many varied situations throughout our lives.  But maintaining an intact family for my kids, parents, wife, and who knows who else, has usually veered me away from focusing on that.
> 
> I am very duty driven.


----------



## StarFires

@Blondilocks _"Make yourself some notes on what it will take for you to stay in the marriage and a timeline for sustained effort on her part."_

That "just do it" mentality that I loathe to my core. And worse is the "You have x amount of time to just do it or else" in order to threaten a woman to just do it. Yikes.

I only read to page 5, but yikes to........

1.


Mylehigh said:


> I believe if you really love someone you just plain want to be intimate with them. Period. So how can she love me and not want me to touch her?? I just can't get my head around that.


2.


Mylehigh said:


> I don't think she does it grudgingly, she initiates it but 99% of the time does so in response to my reminders that it's been a while... or, hey, look what I woke up with... I do think she is content in meeting my most primal needs, but just doesn't do a very good job at it. I mean - only when nagged and not often enough.
> 
> My real needs are what I told you in the other part of my reply - a really deep emotional connection is very important to me, and 30+ years has taught me that when the sex ain't there, the deep emotional connection ain't there either. On both sides.


3.


Mylehigh said:


> I know you can only go by the words I wrote there... but it isn't like the 'buzz kill' means boner kill and no more fun for the night. It just means that, to me, I wish I didn't have to ask for it. Every single time she has used it, it was because I said, can we put some of this on?? I want her to be thinking about how to make it good for me, not just complying. And there is a difference there.
> 
> But you are right that it is time for me to step up a bit. I've thought about buying something like a fleshlight to use on me, but I've just been a little uncomfortable going there. "Hey honey, will you jack me off with this?" feels a lot different than the love-making intimacy that I really want.


4.


Mylehigh said:


> and I say, we wouldn't be having stress if you could just give yourself whole-heartedly and physically to me a couple of times a week instead of half-heartedly a couple times a month!! And so it goes.


And then:


Mylehigh said:


> Thanks for your straight talk - but there is a lifetime that cannot be explained in a few paragraphs. I believe that her problem is one of general sexual repression. She has very low levels of desire, so I don't believe she would blow some movie star. I really don't think she even masturbates, like ever. I've tried to get some kind of info from her on that subject and she is way too uncomfortable to talk about it.
> 
> I think if she found herself single she would shy away from any relationship, but if she got in one, she would do all the deeds with him as she started out with me before marriage and maybe for the first year or so because she would have to. But she is repressed. Not horny and wishing I was someone else.


You said you are a very generous lover but in my experience, very generous lovers didn't equate to being good lovers. I always appreciated the consideration and willingness to please me, but either they knew how to please a woman or they didn't know how. So their generosity wasn't useful if they weren't doing things right. You can't make a woman enjoy what you're doing if you're not doing what is enjoyable to her. So, you can't consider yourself a generous lover and expect that to mean much of anything since it can't be proven and only the effects are known because you are the one here complaining about them. In my experience, a woman wants what feels good to her. What falls flat and pointless she will avoid because she doesn't appreciate feeling like the furniture, receptacle, and objectified wife appliance. And I've heard plenty enough complaints from men just like yours as well as those stating "I thought she was low drive (or sexually repressed) but found out she just didn't want to have sex with me." And, while you don't think your wife could possibly enjoy sex or willingly become sexually active with anyone at all, I've heard enough women say "I thought I was low drive (or thought I didn't enjoy sex) throughout my marriage but found out I wasn't." I think you're wrong to draw that conclusion because you don't know what the problem is, and you'd be butt hurt to find out after divorcing her that she's the one who turns out enjoying a sexually active lifestyle because that was the result in both the statements I just quoted people as saying. How would you feel if she were to discover that not you but she was the one who was sexually deprived and not sexually repressed like you labeled her?

I'm not saying you're a terrible lover. I have no idea. I'm submitting that you don't have any idea either, but you call your wife sexually repressed, a term historically known as frigid, and more recently termed low drive or no drive. While there undoubtedly are women who are indeed frigid, I'm never going to buy that there are so many women who are just physically dead in the sexuality department as is represented on these boards of complaints by sexually deprived men. I think there are a number of factors and variables that make women not want to have sex, so men's lack of sexual prowess is not the only factor to blame. I only know how that has turned out to be the problem in many cases. I know how incredibly naive you sound for your age in the first statement I quoted above, and I know how selfish and sexually objectifying your wife you sound in other statements you made that I find it hard to completely believe your generous and doing all the right things assertions. It sounds like you're quite a good guy by your estimation but possibly not quite as good as you think. You've been a great provider, husband, and father, and so you deserve sexual satisfaction. This kind of stuff is what makes marriage difficult as you can see.

Even though the multiple ways of blaming your wife that was done in the first 5 pages of responses is normal on this board, I don't buy it and usually bring up this side of things as also a possibility and potentially at least part of the problem because all the wife blaming, all the divorce her suggestions, and all the "just do it" mentalities are tedious and unuseful. I don't buy that it's all her fault and she's frigid because I know what it's like to be sexually dissatisfied (even with a generous lover). I don't buy it because of how often men and women have made the statements that I quoted not just on this board but several other relationship boards as well as friend's statements. I don't buy it because of how often I see that guys don't understand how different sex is for women than for men, so they don't know how to please a woman. And I don't buy it because you've made yourself sound a little bit naive and at the same time a little selfish and deserving despite not knowing what the problem is. Generally, women don't like being told they should just do it, but that is essentially what you have said to her.


----------



## Mylehigh

StarFires said:


> @Blondilocks _"Make yourself some notes on what it will take for you to stay in the marriage and a timeline for sustained effort on her part."_
> 
> That "just do it" mentality that I loathe to my core. And worse is the "You have x amount of time to just do it or else" in order to threaten a woman to just do it. Yikes.
> 
> I only read to page 5, but yikes to........
> 
> 1.
> 
> 2.
> 
> 3.
> 
> 4.
> 
> And then:
> 
> You said you are a very generous lover but in my experience, very generous lovers didn't equate to being good lovers. I always appreciated the consideration and willingness to please me, but either they knew how to please a woman or they didn't know how. So their generosity wasn't useful if they weren't doing things right. You can't make a woman enjoy what you're doing if you're not doing what is enjoyable to her. So, you can't consider yourself a generous lover and expect that to mean much of anything since it can't be proven and only the effects are known because you are the one here complaining about them. In my experience, a woman wants what feels good to her. What falls flat and pointless she will avoid because she doesn't appreciate feeling like the furniture, receptacle, and objectified wife appliance. And I've heard plenty enough complaints from men just like yours as well as those stating "I thought she was low drive (or sexually repressed) but found out she just didn't want to have sex with me." And, while you don't think your wife could possibly enjoy sex or willingly become sexually active with anyone at all, I've heard enough women say "I thought I was low drive (or thought I didn't enjoy sex) throughout my marriage but found out I wasn't." I think you're wrong to draw that conclusion because you don't know what the problem is, and you'd be butt hurt to find out after divorcing her that she's the one who turns out enjoying a sexually active lifestyle because that was the result in both the statements I just quoted people as saying. How would you feel if she were to discover that not you but she was the one who was sexually deprived and not sexually repressed like you labeled her?
> 
> I'm not saying you're a terrible lover. I have no idea. I'm submitting that you don't have any idea either, but you call your wife sexually repressed, a term historically known as frigid, and more recently termed low drive or no drive. While there undoubtedly are women who are indeed frigid, I'm never going to buy that there are so many women who are just physically dead in the sexuality department as is represented on these boards of complaints by sexually deprived men. I think there are a number of factors and variables that make women not want to have sex, so men's lack of sexual prowess is not the only factor to blame. I only know how that has turned out to be the problem in many cases. I know how incredibly naive you sound for your age in the first statement I quoted above, and I know how selfish and sexually objectifying your wife you sound in other statements you made that I find it hard to completely believe your generous and doing all the right things assertions. It sounds like you're quite a good guy by your estimation but possibly not quite as good as you think. You've been a great provider, husband, and father, and so you deserve sexual satisfaction. This kind of stuff is what makes marriage difficult as you can see.
> 
> Even though the multiple ways of blaming your wife that was done in the first 5 pages of responses is normal on this board, I don't buy it and usually bring up this side of things as also a possibility and potentially at least part of the problem because all the wife blaming, all the divorce her suggestions, and all the "just do it" mentalities are tedious and unuseful. I don't buy that it's all her fault and she's frigid because I know what it's like to be sexually dissatisfied (even with a generous lover). I don't buy it because of how often men and women have made the statements that I quoted not just on this board but several other relationship boards as well as friend's statements. I don't buy it because of how often I see that guys don't understand how different sex is for women than for men, so they don't know how to please a woman. And I don't buy it because you've made yourself sound a little bit naive and at the same time a little selfish and deserving despite not knowing what the problem is. Generally, women don't like being told they should just do it, but that is essentially what you have said to her.


I'm sorry that you have been with generous yet not very good lovers. That must suck and it obviously has impacted your views. Could you imagine what it would be like to be with a generous lover that DOES know how to please a woman? My wife doesn't have to imagine. She just doesn't have the frequency of interest that I do; so consider the term 'low desire' to be a relative term to my more frequent interest and maybe then you can take it in a more accurate context.

Your assumption that I must suck in bed (not in a good way) because of her lack of interest are what I see as naive. I think it probably reflects your personal filters and possibly stems from your own disappointing experiences. If you read psychologist's opinions and publications on the subject (not just message boards) you will find many experts in the field that say feelings follow actions, and for some or even many women, that means when it comes to sex, interest follows stimulation. If they wait for interest/desire before they are receptive to stimulation, it becomes a do-it never situation. Look up the book "Sex Starved Marriages" for what I am referring to. One of the author's recommended strategies is exactly that - Just Do It. She has counseled hundreds of couples with sex therapy needs. I'll go with her opinion on this one vs. yours. That book and many countless other psychologist's blogs are all over the internet. I've read a lot of them before coming here.

Low desire is NOT just a woman thing. The out of balance HD vs LD can go either way.


----------



## wilson

Mylehigh said:


> She's probably quite sure she is in control. I've said to her in non-confrontational discussions that I cannot even begin to imagine what it would be like to know that if I decided I wanted sex, I just have to drop a breadcrumb or two and she comes calling. It's never been like that with us. I've always pursued and she has always been the one with the red light/green light switch in her hand. Getting mad over here again seeing myself type these words. Ugh!


In these kinds of situations, FSJ's technique of doing your own thing would probably be worthwhile. When she puts up the red light, you tell her you're going out to have a good time playing pool, going to the gym, or whatever you feel like. Tell her not to wait up for you. It would throw her for a loop and certainly get her out of the mindset that she can hit the red light switch without any consequences.


----------



## farsidejunky

wilson said:


> In these kinds of situations, FSJ's technique of doing your own thing would probably be worthwhile. When she puts up the red light, you tell her you're going out to have a good time playing pool, going to the gym, or whatever you feel like. Tell her not to wait up for you. It would throw her for a loop and certainly get her out of the mindset that she can hit the red light switch without any consequences.


You had me until "consequences", which I believe is what many see from my suggestions...which I believe leads to many disliking suggestions. Consequences is the wrong approach...and is exactly the same as distinguishing between boundaries and controlling.

There should be no "consequences" for acts of rejection. That puts one squarely into the drama triangle as they feel victimized...then they move to the victim chair...and then retaliate...placing them in the perpetrator chair.

Nope.

The mindset should not be punishment. The mindset should be twofold:

1. You respect yourself too much and have better things to do then to prioritize someone who is okay with not making you a priority.

2. Give them the space to miss you.



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

I prefer the model - where - you start going out more and when she wants you to stay in - she turns it into an in house date. 

I do think that the average man has no idea how much women like the chase. He needs to let her pursue him. 

Separately - I do think some confirmation needs to happen. This is my thing - YMMV. I get right at about 18" in a quiet - no distraction environment and then ask a simple direct question. And I am staring at M2's pupils while doing this. 

If we reached a point where she is getting some edge I say: There is nothing like a little up close and personal pupil observation to gauge the quality of response. And then I ask.

If I were Mylehigh - I'd do that while asking: How often do you pretend to be having more fun than you are - when we connect? 

Because her avoidance of sex coupled with her frequently forgetting to use lube - those don't correlate well with someone having a good time. And without some honest communication - about what the experience really is like for her - progress is not possible. 

The first three tools in the inspiration toolbox is:
(1) Fearless communication. Especially when it comes to asking BOLD questions. 
(2) Being willing to take the chance - that when you start doing less and less together - she won't pursue you. 
(3) Sop papering over a genuine lack of connection - with a constant stream of reassurance protocols.





wilson said:


> In these kinds of situations, FSJ's technique of doing your own thing would probably be worthwhile. When she puts up the red light, you tell her you're going out to have a good time playing pool, going to the gym, or whatever you feel like. Tell her not to wait up for you. It would throw her for a loop and certainly get her out of the mindset that she can hit the red light switch without any consequences.


----------



## MEM2020

The post below is a perfect example of: You suck because x,y,z
I have read it twice and found not a hint of: Going forward you will likely get better results by....

It feels like the person is angry and just bashing you, so you tend to discount their feedback 





StarFires said:


> @Blondilocks _"Make yourself some notes on what it will take for you to stay in the marriage and a timeline for sustained effort on her part."_
> 
> That "just do it" mentality that I loathe to my core. And worse is the "You have x amount of time to just do it or else" in order to threaten a woman to just do it. Yikes.
> 
> I only read to page 5, but yikes to........
> 
> 1.
> 
> 2.
> 
> 3.
> 
> 4.
> 
> And then:
> 
> You said you are a very generous lover but in my experience, very generous lovers didn't equate to being good lovers. I always appreciated the consideration and willingness to please me, but either they knew how to please a woman or they didn't know how. So their generosity wasn't useful if they weren't doing things right. You can't make a woman enjoy what you're doing if you're not doing what is enjoyable to her. So, you can't consider yourself a generous lover and expect that to mean much of anything since it can't be proven and only the effects are known because you are the one here complaining about them. In my experience, a woman wants what feels good to her. What falls flat and pointless she will avoid because she doesn't appreciate feeling like the furniture, receptacle, and objectified wife appliance. And I've heard plenty enough complaints from men just like yours as well as those stating "I thought she was low drive (or sexually repressed) but found out she just didn't want to have sex with me." And, while you don't think your wife could possibly enjoy sex or willingly become sexually active with anyone at all, I've heard enough women say "I thought I was low drive (or thought I didn't enjoy sex) throughout my marriage but found out I wasn't." I think you're wrong to draw that conclusion because you don't know what the problem is, and you'd be butt hurt to find out after divorcing her that she's the one who turns out enjoying a sexually active lifestyle because that was the result in both the statements I just quoted people as saying. How would you feel if she were to discover that not you but she was the one who was sexually deprived and not sexually repressed like you labeled her?
> 
> I'm not saying you're a terrible lover. I have no idea. I'm submitting that you don't have any idea either, but you call your wife sexually repressed, a term historically known as frigid, and more recently termed low drive or no drive. While there undoubtedly are women who are indeed frigid, I'm never going to buy that there are so many women who are just physically dead in the sexuality department as is represented on these boards of complaints by sexually deprived men. I think there are a number of factors and variables that make women not want to have sex, so men's lack of sexual prowess is not the only factor to blame. I only know how that has turned out to be the problem in many cases. I know how incredibly naive you sound for your age in the first statement I quoted above, and I know how selfish and sexually objectifying your wife you sound in other statements you made that I find it hard to completely believe your generous and doing all the right things assertions. It sounds like you're quite a good guy by your estimation but possibly not quite as good as you think. You've been a great provider, husband, and father, and so you deserve sexual satisfaction. This kind of stuff is what makes marriage difficult as you can see.
> 
> Even though the multiple ways of blaming your wife that was done in the first 5 pages of responses is normal on this board, I don't buy it and usually bring up this side of things as also a possibility and potentially at least part of the problem because all the wife blaming, all the divorce her suggestions, and all the "just do it" mentalities are tedious and unuseful. I don't buy that it's all her fault and she's frigid because I know what it's like to be sexually dissatisfied (even with a generous lover). I don't buy it because of how often men and women have made the statements that I quoted not just on this board but several other relationship boards as well as friend's statements. I don't buy it because of how often I see that guys don't understand how different sex is for women than for men, so they don't know how to please a woman. And I don't buy it because you've made yourself sound a little bit naive and at the same time a little selfish and deserving despite not knowing what the problem is. Generally, women don't like being told they should just do it, but that is essentially what you have said to her.


----------



## MEM2020

Tool number (4) is planning ahead so as to manage difficult conversations as if they really aren’t.

The key question about how much she’s pretending, that’s not s small thing. And you really can’t take the marital ship through a hairpin turn like that without clear eyes and a firm grasp of the wheel. 

If she admits to some meaningful amount of pretending, you touch her cheek with your hand and say something super reassuring. I keep it simple: Thank you for being honest with me. 

If however she stonewalls, and insists that there is no pretending, purely a frequency mismatch, I would step back and say: I can’t force you to be honest with me, any more than you can insist I pretend to accept being stonewalled. 

At this point you ought to expect her to double down. M2 would try and turn the tables by getting angry and loud and saying that she isn’t a liar. But sometimes M2, much as I love her, sometimes she does lie. So - if she flips out - I just give her dead silence so she can hear what uninterrupted crazy sounds like. This is rare - but it happens. 





MEM2020 said:


> I prefer the model - where - you start going out more and when she wants you to stay in - she turns it into an in house date.
> 
> I do think that the average man has no idea how much women like the chase. He needs to let her pursue him.
> 
> Separately - I do think some confirmation needs to happen. This is my thing - YMMV. I get right at about 18" in a quiet - no distraction environment and then ask a simple direct question. And I am staring at M2's pupils while doing this.
> 
> If we reached a point where she is getting some edge I say: There is nothing like a little up close and personal pupil observation to gauge the quality of response. And then I ask.
> 
> If I were Mylehigh - I'd do that while asking: How often do you pretend to be having more fun than you are - when we connect?
> 
> Because her avoidance of sex coupled with her frequently forgetting to use lube - those don't correlate well with someone having a good time. And without some honest communication - about what the experience really is like for her - progress is not possible.
> 
> The first three tools in the inspiration toolbox is:
> (1) Fearless communication. Especially when it comes to asking BOLD questions.
> (2) Being willing to take the chance - that when you start doing less and less together - she won't pursue you.
> (3) Sop papering over a genuine lack of connection - with a constant stream of reassurance protocols.


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM2020 said:


> Tool number (4) is planning ahead so as to manage difficult conversations as if they really aren’t.
> 
> 
> 
> The key question about how much she’s pretending, that’s not s small thing. And you really can’t take the marital ship through a hairpin turn like that without clear eyes and a firm grasp of the wheel.
> 
> 
> 
> If she admits to some meaningful amount of pretending, you touch her cheek with your hand and say something super reassuring. I keep it simple: Thank you for being honest with me.
> 
> 
> 
> If however she stonewalls, and insists that there is no pretending, purely a frequency mismatch, I would step back and say: I can’t force you to be honest with me, any more than you can insist I pretend to accept being stonewalled.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point you ought to expect her to double down. M2 would try and turn the tables by getting angry and loud and saying that she isn’t a liar. But sometimes M2, much as I love her, sometimes she does lie. So - if she flips out - I just give her dead silence so she can hear what uninterrupted crazy sounds like. This is rare - but it happens.


I want to add one piece to the going silent bit, and this is the part where I struggle the most.

When you go silent, you must remind yourself that she need not see it your way. in other words, even if she doesn't think she's being crazy, you trying to convince her shows you being insecure in what you believe. You don't need her to see it your way for it to be true to you.

Furthermore, after she realizes she's temporarily wandered over to crazytown, you may have a tendency to want to speak first. Don't. He or she who speaks first...loses (at least for the first few minutes following the crazy conversation).

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Cynthia

Mylehigh said:


> So what I am hearing here in the last several posts is that I should not go along with her most recent attempt to 'change.'


No. I’m not saying to cold shoulder your wife when she is obviously making an effort. What I am saying is to not let her fall back into complacency. When she starts to drop off, hold her accountable and let her know that this is what she is doing now in striving to meet your needs with a positive attitude is what you expect. Healthy relationships are two way streets. She is not the only one with needs. If she gets all her needs met and leaves you in the cold, that is not going to work and you are not going to enable that behavior.

The idea is to completely stop rewarding her bad behavior and to enthusiastically reward her good behavior. Never punish her. That’s not the idea at all. Simply stop dishing out rewards for bad behavior. This is basically what MEM2020 and FarsideJunky are talking saying. I like how MEM2020 uses the term “inspiration.” Inspiring your wife will help both of you.

Also, I think you are enabling her OCD when you take apart perfectly good work because it doesn’t meet her standards of perfection. I could understand if you made an obvious error, but when it’s simply not absolute perfection, that’s where she needs to work through it and learn not to let her perfectionism take over.




Mylehigh said:


> It makes sense to me to ride this positive wave now, and then when it likely slides back to same old patterns, I let her know by my actions that I am dead serious about it all. If I were to change my behavior NOW, that just seems like a counter-productive and destructive response to her attempt at doing what I asked her to do.


 Yes, this is what I’m talking about. Enjoy her newfound attention and affection. That’s good. Reward that behavior. If/when she slips back, don’t wait. Do something immediately.

Part of what I’m saying is, don’t play games. Your life and your peace of mind is not something to be taken lightly.

Another thing, your wife is showing you now that she does enjoy you and she does have it in her to be an engaged and loving wife. Keep that in mind.


----------



## AVR1962

I left my marriage after 24 years. Husband was distant and he felt the only way to bring us back was to have sex more. I needed his support, I needed to know I was loved and wanted more than his beloved porn and it was not there. Not saying this is the same situation with you but if you want to save your marriage you might have to dig a little deeper than your desire for sex. She is not happy in some way and has lost the interest. Women are emotional beings and if we are not feeling loved or wanted then we cannot give in return.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

CynthiaDe said:


> No. I’m not saying to cold shoulder your wife when she is obviously making an effort. What I am saying is to not let her fall back into complacency. When she starts to drop off, hold her accountable and let her know that this is what she is doing now in striving to meet your needs with a positive attitude is what you expect. Healthy relationships are two way streets. She is not the only one with needs. If she gets all her needs met and leaves you in the cold, that is not going to work and you are not going to enable that behavior.
> 
> The idea is to completely stop rewarding her bad behavior and to enthusiastically reward her good behavior. Never punish her. That’s not the idea at all. Simply stop dishing out rewards for bad behavior. This is basically what MEM2020 and FarsideJunky are talking saying. I like how MEM2020 uses the term “inspiration.” Inspiring your wife will help both of you.
> 
> Also, I think you are enabling her OCD when you take apart perfectly good work because it doesn’t meet her standards of perfection. I could understand if you made an obvious error, but when it’s simply not absolute perfection, that’s where she needs to work through it and learn not to let her perfectionism take over.
> 
> 
> Yes, this is what I’m talking about. Enjoy her newfound attention and affection. That’s good. Reward that behavior. If/when she slips back, don’t wait. Do something immediately.
> 
> Part of what I’m saying is, don’t play games. Your life and your peace of mind is not something to be taken lightly.
> 
> Another thing, your wife is showing you now that she does enjoy you and she does have it in her to be an engaged and loving wife. Keep that in mind.


This all makes perfect sense.... but I must relate that in my case, when I focused on rewarding good behavior (but not engaging in any sort of punishment), I was still accused of only wanting her for sex. It did not encourage or reinforce a positive cycle.


----------



## farsidejunky

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> This all makes perfect sense.... but I must relate that in my case, when I focused on rewarding good behavior (but not engaging in any sort of punishment), I was still accused of only wanting her for sex. It did not encourage or reinforce a positive cycle.


I used to fall into the trap of defending this as well.

But getting defensive is allowing her to frame the discussion. Many struggle when this **** test arises...which is also a form of gaslighting. 

The proper response would have been something akin to, "Not just sex. I like cooked meals as well" (or something else she does for you) with your best Cheshire Cat grin.

Never allow someone to shame you for being sexual...or for that matter, simply being yourself. 

Be unashamedly yourself. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Cynthia

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> This all makes perfect sense.... but I must relate that in my case, when I focused on rewarding good behavior (but not engaging in any sort of punishment), I was still accused of only wanting her for sex. It did not encourage or reinforce a positive cycle.


Of course you want her for sex, isn't that why you married her? But you don't only want her for sex. You married her because she checks the boxes for you. What is important to you about your wife? It must be more than sex. But wanting sex to be a part of that is perfectly normal and healthy. Not as a sex object, but as a lover, friend, wife. Like Farsidejunky said,


farsidejunky said:


> I used to fall into the trap of defending this as well.
> 
> But getting defensive is allowing her to frame the discussion. Many struggle when this **** test arises...which is also a form of gaslighting.
> 
> The proper response would have been something akin to, "Not just sex. I like cooked meals as well" (or something else she does for you) with your best Cheshire Cat grin.
> 
> Never allow someone to shame you for being sexual...or for that matter, simply being yourself.
> 
> Be unashamedly yourself.


Good grief. Wanting sex with you wife is a normal, healthy thing. If she feels like an object, that's not a good thing at all, so think about whether you are contributing to her feeling that way or if something else is going on. Explore that. Is she gaslighting you? Or are you doing something to make her feel used? Talk to her about it. Work with her to find the answers.

Husbands and wives are supposed to be sexual with each other. There is nothing wrong with that and there is nothing wrong with expecting that to be a vital part of marriage.

I think what @StarFires was saying is interesting. There is a lot to unpack. For example, people cannot read each other's minds. If a woman doesn't realize that her sex life is unsatisfactory due to an inept lover, how is her lover to know that when she doesn't? People need to communicate and talk about what they want and what works for them, not only in the bedroom, but in life. It seems to me that if things are working in the bedroom due to someone not being skilled, it's not only the unskilled lover's fault and there is more going on within the relationship that needs to be resolved. People can learn skills, including relationship and communication skills.

But it seems that Mylehigh's wife is happy once things get going and enjoys the experience, so it is likely that the issue is what he said, "responsive desire."


----------



## Casual Observer

MEM2020 said:


> I prefer the model - where - you start going out more and when she wants you to stay in - she turns it into an in house date.
> 
> I do think that the average man has no idea how much women like the chase. He needs to let her pursue him.
> 
> Separately - I do think some confirmation needs to happen. This is my thing - YMMV. I get right at about 18" in a quiet - no distraction environment and then ask a simple direct question. And I am staring at M2's pupils while doing this.
> 
> If we reached a point where she is getting some edge I say: There is nothing like a little up close and personal pupil observation to gauge the quality of response. And then I ask.
> 
> If I were Mylehigh - I'd do that while asking: How often do you pretend to be having more fun than you are - when we connect?
> 
> *Because her avoidance of sex coupled with her frequently forgetting to use lube - those don't correlate well with someone having a good time.* And without some honest communication - about what the experience really is like for her - progress is not possible.
> 
> The first three tools in the inspiration toolbox is:
> (1) Fearless communication. Especially when it comes to asking BOLD questions.
> (2) Being willing to take the chance - that when you start doing less and less together - she won't pursue you.
> (3) Sop papering over a genuine lack of connection - with a constant stream of reassurance protocols.


The section I bolded stood out to me because it might be similar to something I've had to get past with my wife. A nearly-complete lack of anticipation of a pleasurable experience, even if the last one (or two or three of twenty) were. There's a disconnect somehow, almost could be a resentment that it might be pleasurable. And resentment was, indeed, part of it. But it was (and remains) also a mental thing where a pleasurable experience is a moment in time, while for many of us, maybe most, the anticipation can sometimes be as big, or bigger, than the event.

My solution, which does seem to be working, was to establish a nightly massage ritual which, over time, became something she looked forward to. It didn't happen instantly, and there was initially some feeling I was manipulating her. Which of course is true. I was trying to manipulate a connection between us, and sex is a pretty natural segue from massage. Especially if using a massage oil that works as a lube as well (coconut oil).


----------



## StarFires

MEM2020 said:


> The post below is a perfect example of: You suck because x,y,z
> I have read it twice and found not a hint of: Going forward you will likely get better results by....
> 
> It feels like the person is angry and just bashing you, so you tend to discount their feedback


I wanted him to get the message that is in my post though it seems that you didn't. He can discount my feedback. It's up to him. I'm not the one complaining, and my husband doesn't have to demand sex.

There is nothing in my post that is angry or bashing or telling him that he sucks though. Not many people post responses with a hint of: Going forward you will likely get better results by...., but they haven't received this type of comment about it lacking. So I don't know if I have been given a mandated structure for responses and if I am I don't know why.


----------



## MEM2020

See post 124 in this thread.



StarFires said:


> I wanted him to get the message that is in my post though it seems that you didn't. He can discount my feedback. It's up to him. I'm not the one complaining, and my husband doesn't have to demand sex.
> 
> There is nothing in my post that is angry or bashing or telling him that he sucks though. Not many people post responses with a hint of: Going forward you will likely get better results by...., but they haven't received this type of comment about it lacking. So I don't know if I have been given a mandated structure for responses and if I am I don't know why.


----------



## In Absentia

Mylehigh said:


> I used to get really angry from the rejection ... I would get downright angry!



This is where you went wrong. Been there, in your shoes. I did that. Guess what? We are separating. Never ever get angry. If you get angry once, do not repeat. Chalk it down to incompatibility and go separate ways. And don't believe she will change.


----------



## Mylehigh

farsidejunky said:


> The mindset should not be punishment. The mindset should be twofold:
> 
> 1. You respect yourself too much and have better things to do then to prioritize someone who is okay with not making you a priority.
> 
> 2. Give them the space to miss you.


This sounds like a wise and appropriate approach. Thanks for your input.


----------



## Mylehigh

StarFires said:


> I wanted him to get the message that is in my post though it seems that you didn't. He can discount my feedback. It's up to him. *I'm not the one complaining, and my husband doesn't have to demand sex.*
> 
> There is nothing in my post that is angry or bashing or telling him that he sucks though. Not many people post responses with a hint of: Going forward you will likely get better results by...., but they haven't received this type of comment about it lacking. So I don't know if I have been given a mandated structure for responses and if I am I don't know why.


So because you have no first-hand experience base with a low-desire high-desire mismatch, it must not really exist! How myopic is that? He must be a poor lover that leaves her displeased... 

It's striking to me that someone who fails to view objectively outside of their own personal framework of experience and only considers a relatively small bit of anecdotal evidence from message forums tosses around terms such as naive. 

Quite a few folks here have posted 'going forward you will likely get better results by...' and those posts have been helpful for me. But I guess if you only read to page 5 and were so eager to bang your drum about 'frigid wives' (your term, not mine) you missed those.

I guess we all get our therapy in different ways here.


----------



## In Absentia

farsidejunky said:


> 2. Give them the space to miss you.



Might be waiting a long time... what if she doesn't miss him? Because she won't miss him sexually. And she will see this as blackmailing her into having sex with him...


----------



## farsidejunky

In Absentia said:


> Might be waiting a long time... what if she doesn't miss him? Because she won't miss him sexually. And she will see this as blackmailing her into having sex with him...


This has already been addressed ad nauseum...but if she does not miss him, his situation will end up much like yours.

But then at least he knows...without a doubt...it is time to move on.

This method filters all of the background noise and isolates what matters.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Mylehigh

AVR1962 said:


> I left my marriage after 24 years. Husband was distant and he felt the only way to bring us back was to have sex more. I needed his support, I needed to know I was loved and wanted more than his beloved porn and it was not there. Not saying this is the same situation with you but if you want to save your marriage you might have to dig a little deeper than your desire for sex. She is not happy in some way and has lost the interest. Women are emotional beings and if we are not feeling loved or wanted then we cannot give in return.


She has determined that her anxiety and perfectionism lead her to having a hard time staying present in many types of situations. Once she crosses over the line of stimulation, she is VERY present and reaches the O almost 100% of the time. (And for the sake of a few others who may still be tuned in here, she isn't faking - physical evidence proves this to me every time.)

Her perfectionism causes her to not like her own body. She is somewhere between 10 and 15 pounds overweight and detests that extra weight on her body. I have never once complained about her weight and when she complains about it, I simply tell her I understand that it is very frustrating for her. I find her to be extremely sexy. She looks as good if not better than she has ever looked to me, and we first made love as teenagers, over 40 years ago. A guys definition of sexy evolves over the years to meaning more than just a slammin' bod.

She is seeing a therapist to help her manage her anxiety and together, they have identified the anxiety as at least a part of her reluctance to engage in intimacy.


----------



## In Absentia

farsidejunky said:


> This has already been addressed ad nauseum...but if she does not miss him, his situation will end up much like yours.



I hope not... :laugh: I guess the OP has to go through all the steps...


----------



## farsidejunky

Mylehigh said:


> This sounds like a wise and appropriate approach. Thanks for your input.


The single best thing you can do for yourself to make this happen is to find something outside of the home that you enjoy as much or more than spending time with your wife.

For me, it was Brazilian jiu-jitsu. When she withdrew from me, I upped it from 2-3 nights per week up to 4 nights and Saturdays.

If you do not find something you love to do, you are only going to further build resentment, because through your head will be the following narrative:

"I have to be out of the house doing...this...just to prove a point"

It should be be more like:

"Man, I love doing this. Oh yeah! I totally forgot about my low drive wife at home."

See the difference? You are choosing to pursue something else besides your wife that brings you pleasure.

Lastly, I want to leave you with two statements. These statements are now (they didn't used to be) the two statements by which I evaluate whether people will remain in my life or not. One is by Maya Angelou:

"Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option."

The second one is something I came up with:

"Love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable."

Your wife should not only hold no exceptions to the above, but she should be held to a higher standard than the rest of the world. After all, she is the one person who is supposed to navigate life with you.




Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Mylehigh

farsidejunky said:


> The single best thing you can do for yourself to make this happen is to find something outside of the home that you enjoy as much or more than spending time with your wife.
> 
> For me, it was Brazilian jiu-jitsu. When she withdrew from me, I upped it from 2-3 nights per week up to 4 nights and Saturdays.
> 
> If you do not find something you love to do, you are only going to further build resentment, because through your head will be the following narrative:
> 
> "I have to be out of the house doing...this...just to prove a point"
> 
> It should be be more like:
> 
> "Man, I love doing this. Oh yeah! I totally forgot about my low drive wife at home."
> 
> See the difference? You are choosing to pursue something else besides your wife that brings you pleasure.
> 
> Lastly, I want to leave you with two statements. These statements are now (they didn't used to be) the two statements by which I evaluate whether people will remain in my life or not. One is by Maya Angelou:
> 
> "Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option."
> 
> The second one is something I came up with:
> 
> "Love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable."
> 
> Your wife should not only hold no exceptions to the above, but she should be held to a higher standard than the rest of the world. After all, she is the one person who is supposed to navigate life with you.


I think you make good points, and I will tell you that I do have and have always had 'outside' interests. I used to golf with some buds, but after the kids came around I didn't want to take 5 or 6 hours out of my time with them for that. So I got into racket sports that provide an intense workout in a 2 hour period. I belong to a tennis club and have a large group of tennis friends that I play with probably 3 to 4 times a week on average, year round. I love it and am truly addicted to it, and she is very supportive of me doing it. It keeps me very fit and healthy in body and mind, and allows me independent social outlets as well. I think earlier in this thread I had to explain that this doesn't mean she is pining away for me at home while I neglect her off on my own. All in good balance... If it wasn't for my tennis, I suppose I would be quite a pathetic sap waiting around the house for the queen to dish out my pleasures... :laugh:

I think the more applicable take-away for me in your message here is the second point about 'love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable.' My therapist has helped me see that my sense of duty has led me astray from this concept throughout my life. I'm working on that and this forum has opened my eyes even more to how it applies to my life. 

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.


----------



## farsidejunky

Mylehigh said:


> So because you have no first-hand experience base with a low-desire high-desire mismatch, it must not really exist! How myopic is that? He must be a poor lover that leaves her displeased...
> 
> It's striking to me that someone who fails to view objectively outside of their own personal framework of experience and only considers a relatively small bit of anecdotal evidence from message forums tosses around terms such as naive.
> 
> Quite a few folks here have posted 'going forward you will likely get better results by...' and those posts have been helpful for me. But I guess if you only read to page 5 and were so eager to bang your drum about 'frigid wives' (your term, not mine) you missed those.
> 
> I guess we all get our therapy in different ways here.


Mylehigh:

While some posters may be less polished in how they present the advice, it doesn't necessarily give it less value.

I understand that it can feel like someone is telling you that, despite your already tremendous efforts, that you need to do more...and that can be frustrating.

So...just take from it that you should be the best lover reasonably possible, and leave the defensiveness behind. It will not serve you well.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## StarFires

Mylehigh said:


> So because you have no first-hand experience base with a low-desire high-desire mismatch, it must not really exist! How myopic is that? He must be a poor lover that leaves her displeased...


The myopia is yours to narrow the scope of my statements for your desired effect.



Mylehigh said:


> It's striking to me that someone who fails to view objectively outside of their own personal framework of experience and only considers a relatively small bit of anecdotal evidence from message forums tosses around terms such as naive.


I'm sorry you were offended by it, but that you suggest I am naive doesn't mean your statement I referred to was not.



Mylehigh said:


> Quite a few folks here have posted 'going forward you will likely get better results by...' and those posts have been helpful for me. But I guess if you only read to page 5 and were so eager to bang your drum about 'frigid wives' (your term, not mine) you missed those.


I didn't imply that no one posted it. I said not many do, so there wasn't anything for me to miss. I wasn't eagerly banging my drum. There was no point in reading further in order to submit another possibility, which is all I said it was. That you received a positive wave doesn't negate it.



Mylehigh said:


> I guess we all get our therapy in different ways here.


I wasn't being contentious with you, so I don't really understand why you are and beat me over the head as having stated the opposite of the things I said. I'm sorry you were offended, but I didn't present another consideration to hurt your feelings, and I never said you were a poor lover. Again, I stated the opposite of that.


----------



## Mylehigh

StarFires said:


> *The myopia is yours to narrow the scope of my statements for your desired effect.*
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry you were offended by it, but that you suggest I am naive doesn't mean your statement I referred to was not.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't imply that no one posted it. I said not many do, so there wasn't anything for me to miss. I wasn't eagerly banging my drum. There was no point in reading further in order to submit another possibility, which is all I said it was. That you received a positive wave doesn't negate it.
> 
> I guess we all get our therapy in different ways here.


I wasn't being contentious with you, so I don't really understand why you are and beat me over the head with as having stated the opposite of the things I said. I'm sorry you were offended, but I didn't present another consideration to hurt your feelings, and I never said you were a poor lover. Again, I stated the opposite of that.[/QUOTE]

I guess it was the narrowing of my posts to your selected snippets without fair context or even having read the whole thread that made me feel like a bit like a whipping boy for someone with an agenda about how much they hate seeing women labeled as frigid and hate the 'Just Do It' strategy. 

I do agree with you that my opinion about you being naive doesn't necessarily mean that I am not. Fair enough.

So I apologize for my defensiveness and will peace out now.


----------



## Affaircare

@Mylehigh,

I'm a lady "of a certain age" and I have to tell you that everything @farsidejunky and @MEM2020 are telling you is not only true--it works.

I have always been pretty open-minded and willing about sex, and I am a pretty sexual person, but I past menopause and even I can tell the difference within myself about desire. It's not that I "don't" want it so much as it used to be an itch I felt I HAD to scratch, and not it's more like a thought that passes through my head and is warm and yummy. I am newly married in my 50's and I adore my Beloved Hubby, plus I think he is hot as hot can be (and I tell him!)...yet often I've found that if I initiate in a big way, I feel awkward and he feels knocked for a loop as if he's not ready or not "there." We found our balance when I started thinking about responsive sexuality and spontaneous sexuality.

For me, Beloved Hubby is the leader, I'm the follower. Now, I'm as visual and interested as a lady can get (I think), but for us, we found a much better balance when I throw a crumb that I'm in the mood, and if he's also in the mood, he'll initiate and I RESPOND. If I throw the crumb and he's not in the mood, I am not all aroused already...I'm just receptive to the possibility and "no harm, no foul." The balance is that he knows I'm interested in him because I say it and show it, but until he starts things, my motor isn't running yet. Make sense? I could go about my day and do work and not ever even think of sexy things necessarily, because my post-menopause desire is "warm and yummy" not burning. Anyway, just bear that in mind--your Dear Wife may be RESPONSIVE and not spontaneous.

Also, regarding what @farsidejunky and @MEM2020 are saying, we also went through this as we were dating and on the occasion now. Part of my Beloved Hubby's "cool"  is that we adore each other but hold on loosely. We have both been divorced so we know we'll survive without each other--yet we choose to be here. We both understand the value of mindfully appreciating today, and not living in a relationship where we aren't each others' priority. We both won't tolerate intolerable treatment from each other. But here comes the cool: if I do freak out or he freaks out, we both do the same thing: "Honey, you seem to be having a struggle with this issue. While you work it out, I'm going for a walk..." He is WAY better at it than I am.  But the idea is to recognize it's their issue, not yours...and give them room to do the work they need to do to be a better person, whilst also not accepting poor behavior. Just ... go elsewhere for a while. Not to stew or fester, but to do something else you find acceptable, enjoyable, or calming for you. In other words, you're not storming off to punish her by the lack of your presence, but rather you are respecting yourself too much to accept being treated badly, and you are giving her room to come to whatever terms she's going to come to.

Now note to self, if she is not "used" to this kind of response from you, it's conceivable she may try various tricks to get you "back in line" and back to the way things used to be, so just know that's coming and be aware. If you can catch yourself "Oh wait, that's just an attempt to end the change and return to comfortable" then you can say "No thank you, I'm not returning to the way it was."


----------



## Cynthia

StarFires said:


> I'm not the one complaining, and my husband doesn't have to demand sex.


I don’t think demanding anything from a spouse is likely to yield positive results, but when there is something wrong, it’s important to communicate that it needs to be fixed. That should be done without demanding. There are ways to work through problems in marriage without demanding or being self-centered. Each person matters equally and that should be conveyed. There has to be a balance where husband and wife have each other’s backs and are working together to make sure that each is getting their needs met in a healthy manner.

In Mylehigh’s marriage, he is not having his needs met. It seems that a lot of the issues (perhaps most) in this marriage stem from his wife’s anxiety and perfectionism. @Mylehigh, it may be helpful for you to learn how to work with your wife and not enable her anxiety or perfectionism. I notice that you read some books about what may be causing and how to solve the sexual issues in your marriage, but it appears that those issues are based on anxiety and perfectionism. Learning your part in helping your wife with anxiety and perfectionism may help resolve a lot of what is creating problems in your relationship. For example, ripping out good work and redoing because she has an unreasonable expectation seems counterproductive to her health. Of course you should be gentle and set boundaries in advance rather than springing it on her in the moment.


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## Cynthia

Has your wife been diagnosed with OCD?

I’m wondering if a lot of these issues are stemming from you trying to soothe and encourage your wife when she is having anxiety issues. You understand that she is struggling and you don’t want her to feel worse, so you reassure her and try to help her, even to the point of redoing good work. It is admirable that you want to be loving and supportive of your wife and I wouldn’t want to discourage that behavior. The issue is how to be loving and supportive while also not rewarding her for bad behavior or actually contributing to her anxiety. That may be the key to resolving not only the sexual issues, but other things that stem from her anxiety/perfectionism.


----------



## In Absentia

CynthiaDe said:


> Has your wife been diagnosed with OCD?



Sounds to me... I get the feeling she is too wrapped up in her head and occupied with far more important things than sex... I might be wrong, but I have lived with someone with OCD, anxiety and depression for a long time.


----------



## wilson

While I want to be understanding, it's important not to let things like anxiety, stress, OCD, or whatever be crutches which allow her to not be intimate. If she doesn't want to be intimate, it's very easy for her to say it's because of her anxiety. That may even prevent her from working on it, because as long as she's anxious, she has an excuse not to be intimate. It'd be like a kid saying he couldn't mow the lawn because of his asthma. If having asthma means he doesn't have to mow the lawn, his "asthma" may never go away.

I'm sure that can sound uncaring, but it is also frustrating when there is always some excuse like too tired, too stressed, too busy, etc etc etc. If she has the position that condition X must be fixed before intimacy can be addressed, you may find that there's always some condition which prevents intimacy. If anxiety gets addressed, then it's her weight. Once she loses the weight, then it's worrying about global warming. etc etc etc. If she says that reason X is why she doesn't want to be intimate, there should be clear and significant indications that she is working extremely hard to resolve X. If she's not working to resolve it, you should ask her what she's going to do to overcome it. Don't allow her to feel that those things are insurmountable obstacles that she has no control over. If she says something is preventing her to be intimate, make sure she knows she should be trying to fix it rather than waiting for it to magically fix on its own.


----------



## Cynthia

In Absentia said:


> Sounds to me... I get the feeling she is too wrapped up in her head and occupied with far more important things than sex... I might be wrong, but I have lived with someone with OCD, anxiety and depression for a long time.


Yes, it is likely that she is way too much in her head and not enough functioning in life. Picking things apart and making a big deal out of every little thing is not a healthy way to live and hinders relationships and overall happiness.


----------



## farsidejunky

wilson said:


> While I want to be understanding, it's important not to let things like anxiety, stress, OCD, or whatever be crutches which allow her to not be intimate. If she doesn't want to be intimate, it's very easy for her to say it's because of her anxiety. That may even prevent her from working on it, because as long as she's anxious, she has an excuse not to be intimate. It'd be like a kid saying he couldn't mow the lawn because of his asthma. If having asthma means he doesn't have to mow the lawn, his "asthma" may never go away.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure that can sound uncaring, but it is also frustrating when there is always some excuse like too tired, too stressed, too busy, etc etc etc. If she has the position that condition X must be fixed before intimacy can be addressed, you may find that there's always some condition which prevents intimacy. If anxiety gets addressed, then it's her weight. Once she loses the weight, then it's worrying about global warming. etc etc etc. If she says that reason X is why she doesn't want to be intimate, there should be clear and significant indications that she is working extremely hard to resolve X. If she's not working to resolve it, you should ask her what she's going to do to overcome it. Don't allow her to feel that those things are insurmountable obstacles that she has no control over. If she says something is preventing her to be intimate, make sure she knows she should be trying to fix it rather than waiting for it to magically fix on its own.


This. In spades.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020

Most anxious people benefit greatly from a hard treadmill / cardio workout. They feel less anxious and more happy. 

They also like their bodies better - due to improved muscle tone. Anxious, controlling people behave badly. That isn’t specific to a request/response pattern related to sex, it is an across the board thing. 

I speak with absolute authority on this topic as I once was an anxious, controlling person.....

The combination of exercise and playfulness with your partner can over time be magically effective. 






wilson said:


> While I want to be understanding, it's important not to let things like anxiety, stress, OCD, or whatever be crutches which allow her to not be intimate. If she doesn't want to be intimate, it's very easy for her to say it's because of her anxiety. That may even prevent her from working on it, because as long as she's anxious, she has an excuse not to be intimate. It'd be like a kid saying he couldn't mow the lawn because of his asthma. If having asthma means he doesn't have to mow the lawn, his "asthma" may never go away.
> 
> I'm sure that can sound uncaring, but it is also frustrating when there is always some excuse like too tired, too stressed, too busy, etc etc etc. If she has the position that condition X must be fixed before intimacy can be addressed, you may find that there's always some condition which prevents intimacy. If anxiety gets addressed, then it's her weight. Once she loses the weight, then it's worrying about global warming. etc etc etc. If she says that reason X is why she doesn't want to be intimate, there should be clear and significant indications that she is working extremely hard to resolve X. If she's not working to resolve it, you should ask her what she's going to do to overcome it. Don't allow her to feel that those things are insurmountable obstacles that she has no control over. If she says something is preventing her to be intimate, make sure she knows she should be trying to fix it rather than waiting for it to magically fix on its own.


----------



## Cynthia

It's not about the things that cause anxiety. Sometimes things can cause anxiety, but general anxiety disorder is not about circumstances. It is an internal issue of not being able to regulate stress, so a person has general anxiety. Therefore, addressing specific issues does nothing to help general anxiety, because, as Wilson mentions, there is always something else to be anxious about.

The answer is for the person with the anxiety to work through how she deals with life and why she goes into anxiety rather than dealing with life in a healthier manner. For her partner, he needs to learn how to respond to her when she is acting out of anxiety. Rather than enabling her anxiety, by trying to soothe her for the current circumstances, it is healthier to move away from the anxious response and not allow it to dictate how things are done or how life is lived. It's okay to feel something and that feeling doesn't have to control how one lives her life.

For example, if she is upset about how a tile is laid, rather than talking specifically about the tile, address her feelings and tell her to breathe through it and accept that things are not perfect and that despite life being messy, that it's okay to be a bit messy. It's all part of the beauty of life. Address the underlying issue, not the symptom.



wilson said:


> While I want to be understanding, it's important not to let things like anxiety, stress, OCD, or whatever be crutches which allow her to not be intimate. If she doesn't want to be intimate, it's very easy for her to say it's because of her anxiety. That may even prevent her from working on it, because as long as she's anxious, she has an excuse not to be intimate. It'd be like a kid saying he couldn't mow the lawn because of his asthma. If having asthma means he doesn't have to mow the lawn, his "asthma" may never go away.
> 
> I'm sure that can sound uncaring, but it is also frustrating when there is always some excuse like too tired, too stressed, too busy, etc etc etc. If she has the position that condition X must be fixed before intimacy can be addressed, you may find that there's always some condition which prevents intimacy. If anxiety gets addressed, then it's her weight. Once she loses the weight, then it's worrying about global warming. etc etc etc. If she says that reason X is why she doesn't want to be intimate, there should be clear and significant indications that she is working extremely hard to resolve X. If she's not working to resolve it, you should ask her what she's going to do to overcome it. Don't allow her to feel that those things are insurmountable obstacles that she has no control over. If she says something is preventing her to be intimate, make sure she knows she should be trying to fix it rather than waiting for it to magically fix on its own.


----------



## farsidejunky

CynthiaDe said:


> It's not about the things that cause anxiety. Sometimes things can cause anxiety, but general anxiety disorder is not about circumstances. It is an internal issue of not being able to regulate stress, so a person has general anxiety. Therefore, addressing specific issues does nothing to help general anxiety, because, as Wilson mentions, there is always something else to be anxious about.
> 
> The answer is for the person with the anxiety to work through how she deals with life and why she goes into anxiety rather than dealing with life in a healthier manner. For her partner, he needs to learn how to respond to her when she is acting out of anxiety. Rather than enabling her anxiety, by trying to soothe her for the current circumstances, it is healthier to move away from the anxious response and not allow it to dictate how things are done or how life is lived. It's okay to feel something and that feeling doesn't have to control how one lives her life.
> 
> For example, if she is upset about how a tile is laid, rather than talking specifically about the tile, address her feelings and tell her to breathe through it and accept that things are not perfect and that despite life being messy, that it's okay to be a bit messy. It's all part of the beauty of life. Address the underlying issue, not the symptom.


While this is true, it does not represent the entire picture.

Sometimes people struggle with stress due to physiological reasons.

Other times, people struggle because they fear, which is often rooted in insecurity.

My stress level was much higher before I really gained confidence in myself, which happened somewhere around 2016.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

M2 and I have this - symbiotic thing going on.

I’m in charge of security, she’s in charge of parks and recreation. I help her anxiety issues by:
- a soft but firm encouragement to exercise - backyard pool simplifies this or
- a long hug and extended back massage or
- I provoke a wrestling match or
- I am verbally playful and get her to laugh

If M2 decides to be really stubborn and determined to remain anxious, I place my hand over her heart and say: If you are insistent on racing to the horizon line, I can’t stop you. But I sure will miss you. And the kids will also. 

And then I shut up. Even the best security can’t protect someone from committing slow, steady suicide by lifestyle. I do not vocalize that sentiment, but I accept it. 




wilson said:


> While I want to be understanding, it's important not to let things like anxiety, stress, OCD, or whatever be crutches which allow her to not be intimate. If she doesn't want to be intimate, it's very easy for her to say it's because of her anxiety. That may even prevent her from working on it, because as long as she's anxious, she has an excuse not to be intimate. It'd be like a kid saying he couldn't mow the lawn because of his asthma. If having asthma means he doesn't have to mow the lawn, his "asthma" may never go away.
> 
> I'm sure that can sound uncaring, but it is also frustrating when there is always some excuse like too tired, too stressed, too busy, etc etc etc. If she has the position that condition X must be fixed before intimacy can be addressed, you may find that there's always some condition which prevents intimacy. If anxiety gets addressed, then it's her weight. Once she loses the weight, then it's worrying about global warming. etc etc etc. If she says that reason X is why she doesn't want to be intimate, there should be clear and significant indications that she is working extremely hard to resolve X. If she's not working to resolve it, you should ask her what she's going to do to overcome it. Don't allow her to feel that those things are insurmountable obstacles that she has no control over. If she says something is preventing her to be intimate, make sure she knows she should be trying to fix it rather than waiting for it to magically fix on its own.


----------



## Cynthia

farsidejunky said:


> While this is true, it does not represent the entire picture.
> 
> Sometimes people struggle with stress due to physiological reasons.
> 
> Other times, people struggle because they fear, which is often rooted in insecurity.
> 
> My stress level was much higher before I really gained confidence in myself, which happened somewhere around 2016.


Yes, a general fear would be an underlying issue of anxiety. So anything could trigger the fear and anxiety. So addressing each incidence of anxiety as if it were related specifically to the trigger wouldn't really help. Addressing the anxiety directly rather than the issue that seems to be triggering it would be more helpful, imo. Example, she goes into anxiety over something and rather than discussing the thing she's stressing over, addressing the anxiety directly. Maybe I'm not making sense here.


----------



## Mylehigh

CynthiaDe said:


> It's not about the things that cause anxiety. Sometimes things can cause anxiety, but general anxiety disorder is not about circumstances. It is an internal issue of not being able to regulate stress, so a person has general anxiety. *Therefore, addressing specific issues does nothing to help general anxiety, because, as Wilson mentions, there is always something else to be anxious about.*
> 
> The answer is for the person with the anxiety to work through how she deals with life and why she goes into anxiety rather than dealing with life in a healthier manner. For her partner, he needs to learn how to respond to her when she is acting out of anxiety. Rather than enabling her anxiety, by trying to soothe her for the current circumstances, it is healthier to move away from the anxious response and not allow it to dictate how things are done or how life is lived. It's okay to feel something and that feeling doesn't have to control how one lives her life.
> 
> For example, if she is upset about how a tile is laid, rather than talking specifically about the tile, address her feelings and tell her to breathe through it and accept that things are not perfect and that despite life being messy, that it's okay to be a bit messy. It's all part of the beauty of life. Address the underlying issue, not the symptom.


Yup!!! You hit it right on the head here as have several other comments. She involuntarily and periodically selects certain targets for the anxiety outlets, and I learned long ago if I try to reason her back from the ledge, it is like talking to someone that is under a spell. No amount of logic or explanation can take her back from that ledge. She sees it happen and even says, I know I am having a thing here... but nonetheless cannot stop it. I also cannot be her therapist, and I try my best to support her without becoming her therapist. It's very hard on me and us. So far, we have not been able to successfully just leave a misplaced tile. No amount of time or expense is too much to correct such a thing. *sigh* I've told her I no longer will be doing any remodeling projects because it has become the single greatest and most predictable trigger for these kind of events and try as I do to avoid it, we have our worst arguments over the tedium of these details. If something isn't just so, it shall be replaced, redone or whatever, or she won't sleep at night and neither will I.

The anxiety and perfectionism are why she is seeing a therapist for the past 2 years. I'd say she has made mild progress but has a very long way to go. She recently cut back her appts to every couple of months and I found the right time and space to let her know that I think that was a mistake. She agreed and has started going again more frequently, but I'm not sure it is getting her there. She's just barely now tapping into some of her childhood family disruptions that I believe are at the root level of her perfectionism and anxiety. 

We all have anxiety - how we manage it is another matter.


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## Cynthia

I agree that you aren't her therapist. It's good you understand that you cannot fix her. 

Not doing projects with her that you know are going to be a problem is a good way for you to directly deal with the anxiety and not get sucked in or enable her. 

It sounds debilitating. I'm glad you are encouraging her to continue with therapy. Do you think she might need a new therapist?


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## Mylehigh

She is on her second therapist. I really don't know if it is a therapist mismatch or just the complexity of the issue at hand. Or both.


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## Cynthia

Mylehigh said:


> She is on her second therapist. I really don't know if it is a therapist mismatch or just the complexity of the issue at hand. Or both.


Considering that her issues date back to childhood, it's difficult to know the answer to that. I can imagine it must be frustrating for both of you.


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## Mylehigh

Affaircare said:


> @Mylehigh,
> 
> I'm a lady "of a certain age" and I have to tell you that everything @farsidejunky and @MEM2020 are telling you is not only true--it works...


I wanted to reply and thank you for writing out your thoughts. It is all helpful for me and I appreciate your input.


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## Cynthia

It does work and not only for one person. A healthy marriage is healthy for both husband and wife. The techniques they are speaking of do not tear one person to bring another up. They are not self-centered or rude. They are loving, patient, and kind, and they expect to be reciprocated.


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## MEM2020

Inspiration toolbox:
(1) Fearless communication. Especially when it comes to asking BOLD questions. 
(2) Being willing to take the chance - that when you start doing less and less together - she won't pursue you. 
(3) Sop papering over a genuine lack of connection - with a constant stream of reassurance protocols.
(4) Is planning ahead so as to manage difficult conversations as if they really aren’t.
(5) Defusing patterned dysfunction with humor: Frowning at a home improvement request, gosh - you look EXACTLY like - you could be the twin sister of someone I did a couple home improv jobs with. They were an unmitigated nightmare. Sorry - I can’t get the resemblance out of my head - request denied. 

Now M2 dislikes being thwarted and sometimes will attempt to prevail by waging a war of - low intensity conflict. This is a type of emotional terrorism that I have learned to recognize it and directly address it - reference (1) above.

Me: I know you’re upset that you didn’t get your way. And I also know that we have this - comically high level of emotional synchronization because my default state is - content or neutral - and your default state is happy. So normally you walk in the door with that big smile and warm hug - like a glider riding a thermal - I up-regulate to where you are. 

Tell you what, how about I write a letter to the UN, ensuring that when the Alien ship from Betelgeuse Prime makes contact, they put the tile refinishing job immediately after AGW and Nuclear weapons proliferation. 

While I don’t talk about divorce with M2, because I’m not going to divorce her, sufficiently provoked I do say: THIS type behavior makes me look for ways for us to spend less time together.


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## MEM2020

Amen to that Cynthia. Golden rule 





CynthiaDe said:


> It does work and not only for one person. A healthy marriage is healthy for both husband and wife. The techniques they are speaking of do not tear one person to bring another up. They are not self-centered or rude. They are loving, patient, and kind, and they expect to be reciprocated.


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## cma62

It was quite refreshing that not one person mentioned” check your phone bill” in response to her aversion to sex.
This was a very informative thread with great feedback and insight from members who have experienced similar circumstances in their marriages.
OP...you articulated your situation and your experiences very well. 
Sad to see a good husband willing to keep his wife happy in all aspects of the marriage including sex is being taken for granted and put on the back burner with your needs being unmet.
You have been given great advice....you just have to implement that advice to see where it takes you.
As a wife who is in your shoes( but also dealing with abuse) ....it’s a cycle...they get better for a while until complacency rears it’s ugly head and it’s back to old habits...
FSJ is right...” if you do what you always do....you’ll get what you always got “


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## Cynthia

cma62 said:


> It was quite refreshing that not one person mentioned” check your phone bill” in response to her aversion to sex.


If he had said this was something new or she was acting differently, that would likely be the response, but this is an ongoing issue throughout their marriage and he has gotten to the point where he doesn't want to go the rest of his life like this.


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## Mylehigh

So we had our first counseling session earlier this week... interesting to experience and I am looking forward to more.

I think the therapist will be good but time will tell. Her stated goal after talking with us for about an hour is to help us see each other as new people when we talk and listen. Seems reasonable to me. 

We told our story and also happened to meander into a bit of detail about a recent but significant disagreement we had. Not sure my wife is going to be as comfortable as me airing out our personal thoughts because I have an overall impression she cares more than I do about how we 'appear' to others. But I reserve the right to be very wrong about that. Time will tell.

Had no chance yet to talk about some of our base issues, like the topic discussed at length here in this thread. I was pretty sure the best thing for us was to have a female therapist so my lovely lady wasn't sitting there thinking, oh great, a couple of guys who think with their d**** are telling me I need to put out more... :laugh:


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## Cynthia

I hope that marriage counseling is a real help and that you two can save your marriage.


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## farsidejunky

Mylehigh said:


> So we had our first counseling session earlier this week... interesting to experience and I am looking forward to more.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the therapist will be good but time will tell. Her stated goal after talking with us for about an hour is to help us see each other as new people when we talk and listen. Seems reasonable to me.
> 
> 
> 
> We told our story and also happened to meander into a bit of detail about a recent but significant disagreement we had. Not sure my wife is going to be as comfortable as me airing out our personal thoughts because I have an overall impression she cares more than I do about how we 'appear' to others. But I reserve the right to be very wrong about that. Time will tell.
> 
> 
> 
> Had no chance yet to talk about some of our base issues, like the topic discussed at length here in this thread. I was pretty sure the best thing for us was to have a female therapist so my lovely lady wasn't sitting there thinking, oh great, a couple of guys who think with their d**** are telling me I need to put out more...


My wife was exactly the same in MC.

She considered it a "breach of loyalty" to bring up things in MC that we hadn't previously talked about.

My response?

"You aren't suggesting how our marriage appears is more important than how it actually is...are you?"

It pissed her off...but frankly, a good bit of the reason we were in MC was her finding excuses for avoiding difficult subjects...so I didn't really concern myself with how she felt about it.

BTW, our marriage is very good now.

Do what you know to be right. Let the chips fall where they may.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## CraigBesuden

MEM2020 said:


> Most anxious people benefit greatly from a hard treadmill / cardio workout. They feel less anxious and more happy.
> 
> They also like their bodies better - due to improved muscle tone. Anxious, controlling people behave badly. That isn’t specific to a request/response pattern related to sex, it is an across the board thing.
> 
> I speak with absolute authority on this topic as I once was an anxious, controlling person.....
> 
> The combination of exercise and playfulness with your partner can over time be magically effective.


I started anti-anxiety meds and exercising 1-4 hours per day at the gym. I look better and feel better. I’m like a new person.

OP, I hope you can find a solution other than D. 

As Dr. Ruth would always say, use lubrication. Keep a bottle of AstroGlide handy at all times. Make sure you are pleasing her sexually, lots of O’s. And work on non-sexual intimacy like cuddling.

If she values her marriage, she can pretend to enjoy intercourse twice a month.


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## wilson

It's good to hear counseling went well. Hopefully she will get to a point where she realizes that a marriage can have issues and still have intimacy. It's never the case that everything is perfect. Also, hopefully she realizes that if intimacy is better, it will help make a lot of other things better as well.


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## Mylehigh

So we have our second MC session coming up this morning. We've had a rough month or so - intercourse once about 4 weeks ago and a couple manual hold-me-overs in between. Overall we've been getting along fairly well dealing with everyday life, but the tension around the absence of sex has been building.

So after we had our showers this morning, I was dressed in the bedroom, just finished making the bed and she comes in and lays it on me. She has an awesome orgasm and even gives me a bit of oral sex before we have intercourse. I went along with it all and yes I quite enjoyed it, but now I feel a little frustrated that I let her do that. It seems so disarming right before we go to our appointment. She even said, not a bad way to spend the morning when we are about to go to MC!

But as I said I am left feeling a bit disarmed, even a bit embarrassed, weak... I kind of wish I had said, no - not now, let's save it for later so we could go to the appt without this big band aide having been applied to the wound. :-/


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## In Absentia

Mylehigh said:


> So we have our second MC session coming up this morning. We've had a rough month or so - intercourse once about 4 weeks ago and a couple manual hold-me-overs in between. Overall we've been getting along fairly well dealing with everyday life, but the tension around the absence of sex has been building.
> 
> So after we had our showers this morning, I was dressed in the bedroom, just finished making the bed and she comes in and lays it on me. She has an awesome orgasm and even gives me a bit of oral sex before we have intercourse. I went along with it all and yes I quite enjoyed it, but now I feel a little frustrated that I let her do that. It seems so disarming right before we go to our appointment. She even said, not a bad way to spend the morning when we are about to go to MC!
> 
> But as I said I am left feeling a bit disarmed, even a bit embarrassed, weak... I kind of wish I had said, no - not now, let's save it for later so we could go to the appt without this big band aide having been applied to the wound. :-/


Smart lady... 0


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## OnTheFly

Mylehigh said:


> ...and she comes in and lays it on me.


Do you think it was an intentional pre-MC manipulation?

So that she can tell MC, ''we're fine, we just had sex!''


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## wilson

While I don't think her motivations were pure, you can use it to build upon. Let her know that it was amazing and that's what you wish intimacy was like on a regular basis. 

I don't necessarily think it was a conscious manipulation on her part. The upcoming MC session means that a lot of the marriage issues are on her mind. She may be realizing she's slacking off in the intimacy area and so she's thinking about it more. It's somewhat of a good sign in that she engaged in a quality session. The more typical case is that she becomes more closed off and resistant. It might be a sign that she truly understands that intimacy should be part of a marriage.


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## BluesPower

Mylehigh said:


> So we have our second MC session coming up this morning. We've had a rough month or so - intercourse once about 4 weeks ago and a couple manual hold-me-overs in between. Overall we've been getting along fairly well dealing with everyday life, but the tension around the absence of sex has been building.
> 
> So after we had our showers this morning, I was dressed in the bedroom, just finished making the bed and she comes in and lays it on me. She has an awesome orgasm and even gives me a bit of oral sex before we have intercourse. I went along with it all and yes I quite enjoyed it, but now I feel a little frustrated that I let her do that. It seems so disarming right before we go to our appointment. She even said, not a bad way to spend the morning when we are about to go to MC!
> 
> But as I said I am left feeling a bit disarmed, even a bit embarrassed, weak... I kind of wish I had said, no - not now, let's save it for later so we could go to the appt without this big band aide having been applied to the wound. :-/


This is complete and total manipulation.

Sorry buddy, but if you fall for it you are a fool. She is simply wanting until hopefully your sex drive goes away, of you just give up...

I suspect you will cave and give in like you always have... What a horrible way to live a life...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

BluesPower said:


> This is complete and total manipulation.
> 
> Sorry buddy, but if you fall for it you are a fool. She is simply wanting until hopefully your sex drive goes away, of you just give up...
> 
> I suspect you will cave and give in like you always have... What a horrible way to live a life...


Yep. And I question the veracity of the "awesome orgasm." This is just far too scripted.


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## MarriedTex

The good news is that she can participate in the marriage when she feels threatened. But it does seem quite manipulative.

Great fodder for the subsequent marriage counseling session. i.e. "That WAS fantastic." followed by "Where has that been for the last 30 years." 

Keep the eye on the long-term prize. In counseling, convey that you have significant resentment that has built up over the years over her inability to meet you halfway on your needs. Today was a good start, but her history leaves you to assume that this is a one-off event and not a turning point. If one good afternoon is enough for you to let her off the hook for three decades of neglect, well, that says more about you than her.


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## sunsetmist

I agree with @MarriedTex

Sounds like the timing was not right for you this morning. Just as the timing has not been right for her--many times. Resentment and likely manipulation on both sides. IMO: This is the perfect time to address such issues in counseling.

You feel frustrated after good sex--wish you'd said no because the 'conditions' did not fit your agenda? Feeling manipulated has thrown a monkey wrench into your plans. Use her manipulation for good. She can be deliberate and initiate when she chooses; what makes her choose to do so?


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## Mylehigh

BluesPower said:


> This is complete and total manipulation.
> 
> Sorry buddy, but if you fall for it you are a fool. She is simply wanting until hopefully your sex drive goes away, of you just give up...
> 
> I suspect you will cave and give in like you always have... What a horrible way to live a life...


Ummm... If "I fell for it," would I have posted about it here? C'mon man, give me a break. Obviously I saw it for what it was, or I wouldn't have come on here to call it out.


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## Mylehigh

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Yep. And I question the veracity of the "awesome orgasm." This is just far too scripted.


Question as you may - I'm not posting here to promote my sexual prowess or fantasies thereof. I've seen others do plenty well covering that topic. I just know what I know. And speaking of Mr. Bluespower, like I just said to him, I obviously get that it was a fairly transparent attempt to disarm me before I go in and talk about being unhappy with her. Manipulative as it may have been by her, I got blown and screwed at a very pleasing level, so who knows... maybe it is I who have mastered the art of manipulation? > mwah haha!


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## BluesPower

Mylehigh said:


> Ummm... If "I fell for it," would I have posted about it here? C'mon man, give me a break. Obviously I saw it for what it was, or I wouldn't have come on here to call it out.


I get what you are saying, but based on the past... you fell for it??? Didn't you?

And posting about it here does not mean that you won't or did not fall for it. We have seen that.

However, recognizing it is kind of a big deal.

In my opinion, this should really piss you off. Like really piss you off a lot...

All these years she gives you a little duty sex because she knows you will stay, like a moron, and now...

When her future ass is on the line, she bangs your brains out??????

She really does think you are that stupid, doesn't she....


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## Mylehigh

OnTheFly said:


> Do you think it was an intentional pre-MC manipulation?
> 
> So that she can tell MC, ''we're fine, we just had sex!''


Not really that simple but perhaps a relevant driver.


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## manfromlamancha

So she *can *have orgasms through normal sex but just doesn't want them with you???? Apart from this one manipulative time ??


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## Mylehigh

wilson said:


> While I don't think her motivations were pure, you can use it to build upon. Let her know that it was amazing and that's what you wish intimacy was like on a regular basis.
> 
> I don't necessarily think it was a conscious manipulation on her part. The upcoming MC session means that a lot of the marriage issues are on her mind. She may be realizing she's slacking off in the intimacy area and so she's thinking about it more. It's somewhat of a good sign in that she engaged in a quality session. The more typical case is that she becomes more closed off and resistant. It might be a sign that she truly understands that intimacy should be part of a marriage.


Yep - well said. And thanks for taking it one step further than the low-hanging fruit of... hey dude! She was manipulating you; you must be a fool to fall for that!


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## Mylehigh

manfromlamancha said:


> So she *can *have orgasms through normal sex but just doesn't want them with you???? Apart from this one manipulative time ??


I know this is a really long thread that nobody wants to go back and read... but nobody ever said she couldn't orgasm. It's a frequency of desire to have sex issue we've been discussing here. Not the inability to do so.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Mylehigh said:


> Question as you may - I'm not posting here to promote my sexual prowess or fantasies thereof. I've seen others do plenty well covering that topic. I just know what I know. And speaking of Mr. Bluespower, like I just said to him, I obviously get that it was a fairly transparent attempt to disarm me before I go in and talk about being unhappy with her. Manipulative as it may have been by her, I got blown and screwed at a very pleasing level, so who knows... maybe it is I who have mastered the art of manipulation? > mwah haha!


Fear not, I had no inkling that you were throwing out a baseless boast. I was just adding that, if this is manipulation, the performance was probably a part of it. 

You seem to have your eyes open here. I'm guessing you'd like it better if you got these things naturally rather than as the result of manipulation on your part though. Glad you had fun, and no doubt you deserve it; just consider that fun of that type is rarely satisfying in the long run, it it is even sustainable at all. 

Carry on.


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## Mylehigh

BluesPower said:


> I get what you are saying, but based on the past... you fell for it??? Didn't you?
> 
> And posting about it here does not mean that you won't or did not fall for it. We have seen that.
> 
> However, recognizing it is kind of a big deal.
> 
> In my opinion, this should really piss you off. Like really piss you off a lot...
> 
> All these years she gives you a little duty sex because she knows you will stay, like a moron, and now...
> 
> When her future ass is on the line, she bangs your brains out??????
> 
> She really does think you are that stupid, doesn't she....


Maybe we have a difference of opinion on what it means to fall for it. I mean, yeah, I stripped naked and had some fun morning sex. Guess I fell for that. But you know, it kind of seems like that's been my goal all along. I didn't "fall for it" in the sense that I then canceled the MC appointment and said, whew! Now it's all better! Thanks for finally changing! We all good now!

Nor am I going to say, hey - no way am I going to bang you! The goal for me is to complain about it and then reject you to ensure our demise! 

Don't make lotsa sense to me. I see everything as a small step - some go my way and some don't. But 30 years of experience tells me the outcome is not going to be determined in one step in either direction.


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## Cynthia

I think having a pleasant sexual experience put both of you in a better mood to approach counseling from. She might have been manipulating you, but you enjoyed her manipulations and it sounds like she enjoyed yours as well.

Marriage counseling should be about coming together not about war. Maybe you needed to be disarmed. You're not there to shoot her. You are there to resolve the issues between you. Having great sex before the meeting should not hinder you from expressing your desire for that kind of activity a few times a week rather than infrequently.


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## Mylehigh

CynthiaDe said:


> I think having a pleasant sexual experience put both of you in a better mood to approach counseling from. She might have been manipulating you, but you enjoyed her manipulations and it sounds like she enjoyed yours as well.
> 
> Marriage counseling should be about coming together not about war. Maybe you needed to be disarmed. You're not there to shoot her. You are there to resolve the issues between you. Having great sex before the meeting should not hinder you from expressing your desire for that kind of activity a few times a week rather than infrequently.


I think you are right - I felt like this session was going to be a time for us to get into some difficult issues. But - it was quite good and positive. We had a 'directed' conversation about what we specifically appreciate about each other, how it makes us feel, what we hear the other person saying, etc. It made us both feel pretty close and we look forward to the next session. We will get to the stuff that puts us at odds, but for now, the therapist is establishing a communication dynamic for us to work with and apply to our relationship. So far so good.


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## Cynthia

Mylehigh said:


> I think you are right - I felt like this session was going to be a time for us to get into some difficult issues. But - it was quite good and positive. We had a 'directed' conversation about what we specifically appreciate about each other, how it makes us feel, what we hear the other person saying, etc. It made us both feel pretty close and we look forward to the next session. We will get to the stuff that puts us at odds, but for now, the therapist is establishing a communication dynamic for us to work with and apply to our relationship. So far so good.


This stage may get frustrating, but hold the course. Her being able to really hear you and want to work to resolve the problems is what you need in order to stay married, so hopefully that is the path you are on with this therapist.

I am a strong believer in encouraging one another in doing what is right and good. I encourage you to tell your wife how happy she made you this morning and how great she was. She needs positive reinforcement.


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## BluesPower

Mylehigh said:


> Maybe we have a difference of opinion on what it means to fall for it. I mean, yeah, I stripped naked and had some fun morning sex. Guess I fell for that. But you know, it kind of seems like that's been my goal all along. I didn't "fall for it" in the sense that I then canceled the MC appointment and said, whew! Now it's all better! Thanks for finally changing! We all good now!
> 
> Nor am I going to say, hey - no way am I going to bang you! The goal for me is to complain about it and then reject you to ensure our demise!
> 
> Don't make lotsa sense to me. I see everything as a small step - some go my way and some don't. But 30 years of experience tells me the outcome is not going to be determined in one step in either direction.


Let me make it easy for you... You fell for this for 30 Years, didn't you?

That is what I meant in the last post. That you did fall for it all those years, 30 to be exact...

Of course no one expect you to pass on sex, that would be stupid.

The question is, does her initiating sex a few times, negate the neglect that you have suffered for 30 years.

Further, how are you going to act, if in say 3 months, she goes back to not having sex of having it be duty sex.

You can be defensive, that is up to you, that is fine, you are the one that has had a sexless marriage for 30 years... Not me...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Sometimes it's just good to have a poke!

No worries there mate.


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## Cynthia

While I do think it's important to stay the course with the therapist, your wife also needs to realize that you aren't going to continue to live in a sexless marriage. The two of you should work out a plan on how often is acceptable and how you are going to accomplish that. Find out what is holding her back and how she can eliminate those obstacles and what you might be able to do to help her.

Planned sex can be just as good as unplanned sex. Planning to have sex every other day or at most every three days is something that can be planned for an accommodated.


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## Mylehigh

BluesPower said:


> Let me make it easy for you... You fell for this for 30 Years, didn't you?
> 
> That is what I meant in the last post. That you did fall for it all those years, 30 to be exact...
> 
> Of course no one expect you to pass on sex, that would be stupid.
> 
> The question is, does her initiating sex a few times, negate the neglect that you have suffered for 30 years.
> 
> Further, how are you going to act, if in say 3 months, she goes back to not having sex of having it be duty sex.
> 
> You can be defensive, that is up to you, that is fine, you are the one that has had a sexless marriage for 30 years... Not me...


It's not her that thinks I'm stupid, it's obviously you. Your posts assume such a shallow level of understanding by me regarding what is going on, but I'm growing more convinced that is more of a reflection of your own inability to see past the painfully obvious. If I was incapable of seeing the real dynamics at play and I assumed my wife believed me to be such a dolt that I would "fall for it" like you describe, then yes, I would be just like you and get really pissed off!! With as little that I know about you, that kind of a reaction by you is so predictable. Be pissed off! Roar!! *Grunt grunt*

You say I am defensive, but I really think my defensiveness pales in comparison to your overall tone of offensiveness. I've perused your posts on this forum and notice a very clear pattern of a relatively hostile writing style that is almost always accompanied by the eventual post of how you are such an awesome ladies' man. It's funny that you are compelled to come on here and pound your chest in that way. I'm guessing that guys like you that get 'pissed off' because they can't process situations beyond the superficial which makes you quite transparent to most women - or at least intelligent women. Maybe your 'blues' power comes in the form of a little pill of said color, but your act is tiresome.


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