# Reconciliation is Incredibly Hard Work



## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

My H and I are about to celebrate our 23rd wedding anniversary, we have two grown sons that left home within the past 3years, and one early teen daughter still at home. 

We have been on the reconciliation road for a little under 3-1/2 years now. We have both been feeling so weary and discouraged lately. A lot of our fights and misunderstandings feel like broken records that are carving deep painful grooves into our souls. The discouragement is not from the ongoing work of re-engaging our hearts, even though that can be frustrating, we are not above working hard for a valuable relationship. The discouragement and near-hopelessness comes from the fear that we will never have the easy-going love that we once had. That we have both put in an incredible amount of work and soul-searching and effort, yet the ease of our mutual love and happiness still remains elusively out of reach.

Background: in April of 2013 my H realized or discovered that I was having an EA with one of his best friends. I had only just begun to realize it was becoming an inappropriate friendship myself about two months prior and had literally made the decision to tell him the very weekend he found out. (At that time I didn't even know what an EA was)

I say that only to explain that even though I had emotionally bonded with OM I was still in the early stages of realizing the direction my heart was heading. So thankfully it ended early on.

One of the reasons I had been able to fool myself for so long was because we were couple friends with OM and his wife. He and I had started communicating at first just to plan outings for the 4 of us because we both happened to be the planners in our respective marriages. As we all got to be closer over the course of about 3 years, we found that we had other things in common and would text and FB msg here and there. My H was aware of our occasional chatting AND he had full access to my FB account which I assumed he was checking in on. In fact OM would often talk to H about the content of our conversations so things were really out in the open and no one seemed upset so I thought all was well. (They worked together)

The main problem, not just in this situation but with me in general, was that I didn't believe that my inner feelings mattered, unless someone else confirmed that they did. 

It was one of my very best friends who after asking me some very pointed questions about my friendship with OM said to me, 'it concerns me that you are assuring me that nothing would ever come of this because he (OM) doesn't like you 'that' way and not because you would never want to compromise your marriage.'

She really shone the light on the deceptiveness of my heart. It took me a while to actually accept what she was saying as a signal that all was not well with me in this friendship, irregardless of how he felt. (OM)

At that time I felt that H didn't care what I did. He not only was part of the friendship, he encouraged it. (He had so much blind faith in me and had no idea that I was unhappy (my fault) so he didn't know that he was basically offering me an alternative to my loneliness.) I sometimes wondered if he was pawning me off on his friend because we were both natural talkers and it took some of the pressure off of my very non-talker H. (Another source of pain and disconnect for me in our M)

So basically I was very out of touch with myself and subsequently H was very out of touch with me. His description of what happened in 2013 was that he was on the party train heading for wedded bliss and out of the blue it derailed and destroyed his happy little world. It makes me weepy to think that I did that to him...but also glad that we got a wake up call because my perspective was that I would never get what I truly wanted out of marriage because I thought men were incapable of the sort of heart connection and understanding that I was starving for. 

I wish the wake up could've come about in another way though. I would never, ever choose the pain, and undermining of confidence that this has brought about for my H. He has forgiven me for the betrayal but the worst part is he can't seem to forgive himself for being party to this and for not recognizing my great need and how it was being met by someone else. He feels stupid and foolish because he thought all was well and he paraded me out for his friend as an example of a wonderful wife and bragged on his relationship with me. He told me recently that he is ashamed that he allowed OM into the 'henhouse' and even ignored my pleas for help. (I tried to tell H early on that I did feel attraction to OM and so I didn't want him too close) my H's ultimate response was 'if he's into you and you're into him, I'm screwed.'

I've never made much sense of that, except to me it shows the amount of insecurity that was already evident in my H even before everything broke loose.

He always thought that the connection I had with OM was based on looks and physique so H felt he couldn't compete. I did not feel that way at all. I always felt OM and H were equally attractive, it was the willingness to talk, to be available, to notice the little things, to be kind and warm and attentive, all things that seemed to come naturally to OM and that we're lacking in my relationship with H. 

Please understand I am NOT making excuses for my betrayal of affection, I am merely laying a groundwork for the things that are now the obstacles and pitfalls that H and I are navigating through in our commitment to reconciliation and create a new and healthy relationship together. 

My time reading on TAM during the last couple of years has really helped me to own my s#!t and not act like what I did was because of what H did or didn't do. He never 'deserved' for me to leave him emotionally without at least telling him what I needed from him and letting him know that I was leaving.
It is because of reading all of the stories on TAM that I understand that am fully responsible for my choices and just because i allowed boundaries to slip, bit by bit through inaction, doesn't mean i didn't choose what happened even though it was all in my heart and never turned into anything physical.
(Thank God!)

Toward the end of my EA, OM and I were taking many times a day and OM would often know things going on with me before H. We did not ever profess any feelings to one another. And we never said anything negative about our spouses. We followed all the 'rules' of opposite sex friendships. I even asked him if his wife knew and was ok with us talking and he said she was.
Yet, even so, I fell hard for him because he was paying attention to me in a way I had not experienced for a very long time. (Since my teen years)
H was still pretty clueless and thought those little twinges of concern or (God forbid) jealously, were to be pushed aside and ignored. 
My heart was completely given over to OM by that time and I had pretty much fully shut down to H. 
What terrifies me about this phase of things was that H had no idea.
We were having amazing sex and doing lots of fun things and he had no idea that I was MIA emotionally. That just made me all the more sure that he had no real care for me but could be easily lulled by sex and fun times. 

Now I understand that it was truly MY responsibility to TELL him! No matter how mad he got or how bad we fought afterward. Nothing is worth the pain of disconnecting with your own spouse and finding yourself open to someone else. 
It still hurts my heart to think of the pain and embarrassment I caused him.
Not to mention his loss of his good friend. 

I don't know if OM was into me or just had terrible boundaries. He never professed anything to me but friendship. Although he was pretty flirtatious when drinking. H told me that was the norm and that he had even flirted with ---- while drinking, who was a girl at work that they considered unattractive. 
(What does a wife do with that statement?)

Ok enough history, if you're interested in my story and Ive left anything out I'm happy to answer questions. 
I'm sure there are those who will feel triggered by my story and for that I'm sorry. My reason for this thread is to discuss the difficulty of true reconciliation. It's not the easy road. My H and i have been willing to take everything down to the baseboards and rebuild. It's been incredibly painful for both of us.

We ARE committed though and are hoping that if we keep going we will reap the rewards. For now the only consistent good thing is that we haven't separated and therefore our family is still intact, our friends aren't devastated by us not making it, and we haven't had to divide our finances and assets. 

But our relationship has not been the source of comfort that we both are craving. At least not consistently.

We started counseling this month and have been to one session last week. We were both encouraged to discover that this is pretty normal for a relationship overhaul and that it IS indeed the hardest part. Our therapist implored us to not give up because it's at this point that often breakthrough is just around the corner. 

We have seen her off and on since the EA came out so she knows us and our story.

Bottom line: we love each other...but just loving isn't enough, when something like this happens. You really DO have to leave no stone unturned and all this stone turning is really exhausting and at times demoralizing.

Thankfully we have loving family and awesome friends which makes for a great support system. I cannot imagine going through this alone.

I hope to share as we continue counseling and as we keep walking into what i hope will be a new and wonderful second phase of our marriage!


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Well,betrayal like this,especially with his friend( imagine the humiliation) will be hard for some to get past. Most do not. Sounds like you are giving it your all.
Why choose a male to go to? Why his friend of all people?why not have talked to your H? Why choose your H in the first place if you do not like how he is?
Just wondering if you really love your H. Sounds like he is Plan B.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Thank you Lily for sharing that with us, quick question do you currently interact with the OM and his wife? the reason why i ask is that in rebuilding your lives together, being near them might complicate things or at the very least strain your relationship with your husband.


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## BrokenLady (Jan 19, 2015)

Have you read the FREE Linda MacDonald book "how to help your spouse recover from an affair"? Only you can know if you truly 'get' the utter devastation. I know it takes 2 to fix a marriage but without true empathy from the WS resentment will build...

http://www.lindajmacdonald.com/HOW_TO_HELP_11-06-10_FINAL_pdf-.pdf


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## Whirlpool (Jul 25, 2016)

tigerlily99 said:


> We ARE committed though and are hoping that if we keep going we will reap the rewards.


You were supposedly committed when you got married.

Your definition of commitment isn't the same as his, and for his sake I hope he knows that and is willing to accept what you're willing to give him, which isn't enough by most standards.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Thank you for sharing that. 

It is good that you both understand how you contributed to a dysfunction married. So now you both need to forgive yourselves. 

You will make this work. My prayers are with you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Whirlpool said:


> You were supposedly committed when you got married.
> 
> Your definition of commitment isn't the same as his, and for his sake I hope he knows that and is willing to accept what you're willing to give him, which isn't enough by most standards.


Really?

Thank goodness you happened along with your little pearldrops of wisdom.

(And please do not mistake your opinions for some kind of Ultimate Truth.)


*Reconciliation is hard. But it is worth the effort.*

@tigerlily99 you will find a lot of people commenting on your thread.

Some will think that there is no way your husband should forgive you, others will root for the both of you to continue with your reconciliation.

I am one of those who is rooting for the two of you! :smthumbup:


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

You have an honest wayward here, who admits her wrongs, was willing to tell her husband, has been honest with him, didn't go looking for an affair, admitted she was in over her head before she knew it, didn't even understand what an EA was and never went physical and people are still treating her like scum. 

For gods sake, sometimes people really DO see the error of their ways, their short comings and indiscretions, are honest and try to be better. Cut her some slack. 3.5 years later, she doesn't need to be beat up when she has come here openly and honestly and her husband has accepted her fault and chosen to move forward with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

Reconciliation is the hardest thing you will ever do. You have to let go of every resentment, bitterness and be raw with your partner.
I know it's hard...sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but you sound like you are putting in the effort. 
Good luck


Sent from my iPhone


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Lardo said:


> Well,betrayal like this,especially with his friend( imagine the humiliation) will be hard for some to get past. Most do not. Sounds like you are giving it your all.
> Why choose a male to go to? Why his friend of all people?why not have talked to your H? Why choose your H in the first place if you do not like how he is?
> Just wondering if you really love your H. Sounds like he is Plan B.



Really, this post isn't helpful at all given that both are committed to rebuild their marriage. 

She didn't choose a male, or his friend to go to. She thought it was innocent at first until her friend snapped her out of it.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

tigerlily99 said:


> She really shone the light on the deceptiveness of my heart.


I think this is the case with many, if not most, affairs. The good book says that the heart is deceptive above all things, and desperately wicked. I was stunned when I first read that, but as I got older, and hopefully wiser, I see its truth. It explains the "fog of the affair" and "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence" mentalities where the WS gets in too deep, thinking that it's happiness and it's what they want. 

Many people today often promote the ideal that if something makes you happy, then you should go for it. I don't necessarily agree with it, because if that happiness is not anchored in integrity and honor, then regret would eventually follow. 

One thing that puzzles me: if you and your husband have been at R for 3½ years, why have you two only started counseling last week?

I'm so sorry you're going through this, as this seems like one of the more salvageable marriages.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

tigerlily99 said:


> My H and I are about to celebrate our 23rd wedding anniversary, we have two grown sons that left home within the past 3years, and one early teen daughter still at home.
> 
> We have been on the reconciliation road for a little under 3-1/2 years now. We have both been feeling so weary and discouraged lately. A lot of our fights and misunderstandings feel like broken records that are carving deep painful grooves into our souls. The discouragement is not from the ongoing work of re-engaging our hearts, even though that can be frustrating, we are not above working hard for a valuable relationship. The discouragement and near-hopelessness comes from the fear that we will never have the easy-going love that we once had. That we have both put in an incredible amount of work and soul-searching and effort, yet the ease of our mutual love and happiness still remains elusively out of reach.
> 
> ...


He is probably struggling with feeling like your emotional plan B. Who was this other man, his friend first or yours?


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

TigerLily,

Thanks for writing what you did, it's very valuable to betrayed spouses to hear what you did and how you felt, because in the heat of the affair they appeared very real to you. 

Sometimes the betrayed spouse needs to tell the waywards story to them based on what they read here and the knowledge that affairs often follow a similar trajectory. They also sometimes need to express what the waywards cannot bring themselves to say. When my wife tried to pass off her affair with OM-1 as a one week thing I had to tell her that I knew it went on for at least half a year or more to which she hung her head. Had I not read up on affairs, I would have accepted her story on face value.

Tamat


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Really?
> 
> Thank goodness you happened along with your little pearldrops of wisdom.
> 
> ...



There you go again being afraid of harsh truth. Always the defender of the WS.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

TigerLily,

You wrote "He always thought that the connection I had with OM was based on looks and physique so H felt he couldn't compete. I did not feel that way at all."

When your spouse has an affair it confirms everything bad you've ever felt about yourself. I felt the same about OM-1, and to a degree it was confirmed by my W years and years later. 

Tamat


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> There you go again being afraid of harsh truth.


I am not afraid. But I *am* concerned. I am concerned when people come to TAM and say: 

"All women need is a man to lead them!" (That one from a woman, too...)

"There is no such thing as reconciliation with a cheater!"

"Well, I have never been married, but I can assure you that if my spouse cheated on me, why I'd do xyz, blah, blah, blah!"

And so on.

When some people come to TAM and ask my opinion I give an answer based on their particular circumstances.

Sometimes the answer is divorce, other times it is reconciliation.

One size does not fit all.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> I am not afraid. But I *am* concerned. I am concerned when people come to TAM and say:
> 
> "All women need is a man to lead them!" (That one from a woman, too...)
> 
> ...


You don't have to white knight every time someone gives an opinion you don't like. We are all adults here.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> You don't have to white knight every time someone gives an opinion you don't like. We are all adults here.


It's not when they give an opinion I don't like.

It's when people come out with an opinion that is mindblowingly unhelpful and likely to cause damage rather than to help when I, and others, get a bit cross.

I'd like to think we are all adults here, too.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> It's not when they give an opinion I don't like.
> 
> It's when people come out with an opinion that is mindblowingly unhelpful and likely to cause damage rather than to help when I, and others, get a bit cross.
> 
> I'd like to think we are all adults here, too.


Maybe the opinion they just gave will help her understand her husband's real thinking. Maybe he is to nice to speak these words. No one abused her, they just said their thoughts on the matter. When you post on her you open yourself up to criticism. That's is just as much an important part of talking about this stuff and giving sympathy.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Maybe the opinion they just gave will help her understand her husband's real thinking. Maybe he is to nice to speak these words. No one abused her, they just said their thoughts on the matter. When you post on her you open yourself up to criticism. That's is just as much an important part of talking about this stuff and giving sympathy.


Sympathy? I gave no sympathy in this thread.

Empathy for the husband. Some empathy for her.

Being cheated on is the pits.

But. Sometimes reconciliation is possible, other times the answer is to RAQ. Run Away! Quick!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Sympathy? I gave no sympathy in this thread.
> 
> Empathy for the husband. Some empathy for her.
> 
> ...


Dude I am not talking about what you gave I am talking about the post you called out.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Dude I am not talking about what you gave I am talking about the post you called out.


This is in danger of becoming a threadjack.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

@MattMatt, it already became a thread jack. Both you and @sokillme, if you must continue this exchange, ought to continue it in PM. I was ready to yell at you both, had Matt not commented on threadjacking.

One thing I will say is that I actually agree with Matt on the initial disagreement between the two of you, in this thread. Whirlpool's post was not helpful, in any way. 

Some, such as Xenote, I believe, asked if the OM (and his wife, I would presume) are still in contact with them. That is a very relevant question. If they are still considered friends, it would be wise to discontinue contact, as that will DEFINITELY affect reconciliation. 

Tigerlily, I look forward to your continued progress. Yes, reconciliation is hard work. However, if you both are fully committed to it, it is worth it.

I do wonder why you waited until now for counseling... unless that was a misunderstanding in your initial post? I hope you can clarify that. Finally, I just want to say that *some* are able to work things out without counseling, and I would guess this is how you felt in the beginning, but I hope you will be able to confirm, one way or the other.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

My wife and I went through the "no counselling, let's handle this ourselves route."

It worked, but I believe if we had been through counselling it might have been quicker and less painful.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I just want to say OP, I am so proud of you.
You are a beautiful example of a WS that wants to R and does all they can to make it a success.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Spicy said:


> I just want to say OP, I am so proud of you.
> You are a beautiful example of a WS that wants to R and does all they can to make it a success.


:iagree:


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## DrSher (Jul 17, 2016)

This is very individual. People have various degrees of views on this. Good luck to you whatever happens. You have a very understandable man. 


Personally, when my XW cheated on me with a classmate and another girl, it almost landed me in jail and Thank God the perpetrator was not there at time I found out. I probably would have killed him there and then. In such sense it is always dangerous for a man to cheat on another wife. Not to mention how pathetic and morally bankrupt it is. 

She DID try to reconcile, but I was never sure how serious it was, never cared. I had her come over and threw her suitcases with her stuff down the street from the balcony. I shredded photos of 5 years along with personal things she had given. It looked like a refugee camp. I may have been faulted for much, but nobody will ever accuse me of not burning bridges to the ground when I want to. I later in my life gave this guy everything I got in a legal fashion and it caused major destruction in his life, although I also wasted time on it, true. My new wife even wanted me to set him up for sexual harassment, but being a nice guy I let him be. Him and the X is now divorced with two kids and all that drama. During their divorce proceedings she actually called me, not sure why, but I think her attorney wanted to try see if I could be to any use. I called her attorney up later on and told him I would be happy to slander his client, LOL. Needless to say, I gave a deposition to the guys lawyer and was called as witness (!!) and my input actually DID help damaging her more. I still remember being threatened with "contempt of court" after the cross as I said I thank **** for getting my X out of my life. They are both scumbags. 

Never forgive, never forget....


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

Lardo said:


> Why choose a male to go to? Why his friend of all people?why not have talked to your H? Why choose your H in the first place if you do not like how he is?
> 
> Just wondering if you really love your H. Sounds like he is Plan B.



Thanks for responding. 
I also have female friends, hence the one who called me out on my fooling myself.
The only reason I ever got close with OM was because he was my H's friend so it felt 'safe'. Otherwise I never would've let my guard down. 
It was sort of a perfect storm in that way because I have always been very cautious with my boundaries. 

My H and I had been married for almost 20 at that point. I'm not sure why you ask why I chose him in the first place. A lot takes place in a marriage over 20 years and unfortunately we had been drifting apart unbeknownst to either of us really.

I do love my husband very much. 
I couldn't bring myself to recommit to him after the EA without settling in my heart that I was chosing him not just settling for him.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

Xenote said:


> Thank you Lily for sharing that with us, quick question do you currently interact with the OM and his wife? the reason why i ask is that in rebuilding your lives together, being near them might complicate things or at the very least strain your relationship with your husband.




For the first two years he continued to work with my H. I no longer interacted with him or his wife during that time, besides an apology letter to her. H tried to remain friends which was difficult on both of us.
Then a year ago OM and wife moved very far away.

Good question. The move made everything so much easier.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

BrokenLady said:


> Have you read the FREE Linda MacDonald book "how to help your spouse recover from an affair"?




Thank you @BrokenLady I will read that.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Yes, R is incredibly hard work. No doubt about that. But it does work very well for some. 

Keeping my fingers crossed it works very well for you.


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## Whirlpool (Jul 25, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Really?
> 
> Thank goodness you happened along with your little pearldrops of wisdom.
> 
> (And please do not mistake your opinions for some kind of Ultimate Truth.)


You reconciled with your cheating spouse. Got it.

Therefore anyone who recommends kicking a cheater to the curb disagrees with your philosophy and is wrong. 

Got that too Matt.

Maybe you should screen my posts before they hit the boards.

That way I won't be wrong and I won't ruffle any feathers.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

Whirlpool said:


> You were supposedly committed when you got married.
> 
> 
> 
> Your definition of commitment isn't the same as his, and for his sake I hope he knows that and is willing to accept what you're willing to give him, which isn't enough by most standards.



@Whirlpool you're right my definition of commitment was different than my H. He would never do that to me. 
My own definition of commitment was different than I even thought it was.
I had no idea that I could act so desperately. 
It shocked my H and demoted me in his eyes. It also made him see that I was fallible and I needed more from him.
It's no excuse...and I'm not making excuses. 
But these are the things that we are dealing with now. Which is why they are important to discuss.

I am willing to give him my all. In fact I am willing to give him even more than I was giving him before: my full honesty, the good feelings AND the bad feelings. No longer will I hide my emotional needs behind the desire to be the perfect wife with no problems or bad feelings to bother my H with. This is a huge adjustment for both of us and at times overwhelming to my H who was used to me filtering and tempering all of my strong emotions. 

So yeah he is aware of what I'm willing to give him.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> You will make this work. My prayers are with you.



Thank you @blueinbr I really appreciate it.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> My wife and I went through the "no counselling, let's handle this ourselves route."
> 
> It worked, but I believe if we had been through counselling it might have been quicker and less painful.


You need a good counselor,not one who will blame the BS. Many do this.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> *Reconciliation is hard. But it is worth the effort.*
> 
> 
> I am one of those who is rooting for the two of you! :smthumbup:




I really appreciate this. We need all the 'cheerleaders' we can get.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Whirlpool said:


> You reconciled with your cheating spouse. Got it.
> 
> Therefore anyone who recommends kicking a cheater to the curb disagrees with your philosophy and is wrong.
> 
> ...


Wrong. While it may be very few and far between, even Matt has suggested, at times, that a couple should separate, rather than reconcile. What he was saying to you is that your comment was, in no way, helpful. The OP has already stated that she knows it was wrong. She has already stated that _they_, not she, not he, but *they* have chosen to reconcile. They are 3+ years out, and she is now posting. They are in counseling. Pretty sure she knows what you felt you just *had* to state. It was unnecessary. That was what Matt was saying.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

citygirl4344 said:


> Reconciliation is the hardest thing you will ever do. You have to let go of every resentment, bitterness and be raw with your partner.
> I know it's hard...sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but you sound like you are putting in the effort.
> Good luck
> 
> ...




Thank you @citygirl4344 
I agree. The hardest part of choosing to reconcile and truly give it my all, is realizing it may NOT work. 
That's why we went back to counseling this month. We were getting to the point that we had no new ideas or tools and we were both stuck in a painful place.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

tigerlily99 said:


> Thanks for responding.
> I also have female friends, hence the one who called me out on my fooling myself.
> The only reason I ever got close with OM was because he was my H's friend so it felt 'safe'. Otherwise I never would've let my guard down.
> It was sort of a perfect storm in that way because I have always been very cautious with my boundaries.
> ...


 I have seen this type of claim before,the allegation that things progressed unnoticed until reaching critical mass. Always seemed disingenuous to me.
I cannot imagine developing romantic feelings for someone without being aware of the progression. This would be especially true of my spouse' s friends,as I would realize that a double betrayal would be especially humiliating and painful.
I think you need to be more honest with both yourself and husbans. Otherwise,it makes you seem less responsible for cultivating this.
Another question: the man's wife had never done anything to you or been deficient in providing for your need for communication,right? So,why did you enmesh yourself with a friend's husband? Where was your loyalty as a friend?


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

becareful2 said:


> One thing that puzzles me: if you and your husband have been at R for 3½ years, why have you two only started counseling last week?
> 
> I'm so sorry you're going through this, as this seems like one of the more salvageable marriages.



Thank you for your post @becareful2 it's terrifying to find oneself in a compromised position and basing happiness on all if those trite sayings that I used to roll my eyes at, 'grass is greener', 'if it feels good go for it', love isn't forever, blah blah blah. Here I was willing to jump ship and I was starting to believe all of that garbage. 

To answer your question, we have done counseling 3 separate times all with the same therapist ( and me on my own with her plus another one that first year)

H's job has employee benefits that allow 8 free sessions per year. We have done that each year and each time have felt that we got where we needed to be and then started up again why we got stuck. Didn't plan it that way, it's just how it's happened.

Thanks for us vote of confidence, I do hope we are salvageable!  I know that if it had been a physical affair my H wouldn't have thought twice and divorced me. I am grateful for my friends and family who kept me honest and asked the tough questions.

I think that having people in your life that you share your 'stuff' with is SO important.


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## Whirlpool (Jul 25, 2016)

Lardo said:


> I cannot imagine developing romantic feelings for someone without being aware of the progression.


Yes there seems to be a serious lack of accountability here.

It's almost like she's saying it's ok because he was a close friend of her husband, or at the very least, using that friendship as an excuse or justification of sorts. There cannot be successful reconciliation if there are excuses and minimizing.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

TAMAT said:


> TigerLily,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



@TAMAT
Thank you for all of your input. 
You're right of course that's where my H went with it. His own insecurities. 

That is insightful and a point of empathy that I can add to my understanding of his reactions.

Im sorry that you have had the experience of being a BS. I'm sorry you had to call out your WS on her minimalizing of the truth about her A. That must've been very painful.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Have you considered that rather than you being the only one with some dissatisfaction with your mate's qualities,he might have found some deficiencies in you,as well. Yet,he did not try to develop feelings for one of your friends?
I wonder if,like many of the WS that post here,you feel that you were the superior spouse and your husband caused this.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

Spicy said:


> I just want to say OP, I am so proud of you.
> 
> You are a beautiful example of a WS that wants to R and does all they can to make it a success.




Thank you @Spicy


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

I think you should be cautious re the selection of a counselor,especially a woman. Many have training steeped in third wave feminism from what I have read,and gang up on betrayed men,blaming the BH.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

@Whirlpool and @Lardo
I am not saying that makes it ok because I didn't notice. But it did reveal a character flaw in myself that I was checked out of connection with my own needs, feelings and motives. 
This is something I have worked on during these last three years. Some with counsellors and their recommended books, classes and research. (And TAM)
I found out through this that I WAS indeed blaming my H. Inwardly justifying my illicit enjoyment of the attention of another man because of H's shortcomings.
That IS wrong and inexcusable. But I don't blame him for my EA. I take full responsibility that it was on me to tell him what I needed and I didn't. It was wrong to go try and find it somewhere else. (Consciously or not)


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## Whirlpool (Jul 25, 2016)

You do sound like you're learning and growing. 

That's good, and for your sake I hope not too much damage was done.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

Lardo said:


> I think you should be cautious re the selection of a counselor,especially a woman. Many have training steeped in third wave feminism from what I have read,and gang up on betrayed men,blaming the BH.




Thank you for your concern, our therapist sides with our marriage. She equally supports both my H and I. My H feels very safe with her as do I.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

I want to thank you @LosingHim for your support in this thread. I have gotten a lot from reading your story. You gave me the guts to share my story even though I am a WS because you have been so strong and true to the goal of being with your H even when it's been painful.
I haven't read up lately. Are you doing well I hope?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

tigerlily99 said:


> @Whirlpool and @Lardo
> I am not saying that makes it ok because I didn't notice. But it did reveal a character flaw in myself that I was checked out of connection with my own needs, feelings and motives.
> This is something I have worked on during these last three years. Some with counsellors and their recommended books, classes and research. (And TAM)
> I found out through this that I WAS indeed blaming my H. Inwardly justifying my illicit enjoyment of the attention of another man because of H's shortcomings.
> That IS wrong and inexcusable. But I don't blame him for my EA. I take full responsibility that it was on me to tell him what I needed and I didn't. It was wrong to go try and find it somewhere else. (Consciously or not)


Michelle Langley wrote about this in her second e-book, Women's Infidelity 2.
It seems a common misconception among some women that men are less emotionally evolved,despite all the male poets,philosophers,artist,authors etc. For some strange reason,despite all the evidence to the contrary,some women refuse to believe that they can go to their husbands and talk about their dissatisfaction.just bizzare,as most of my male friends talk about and share feelings like crazy( and,most of us were jocks).
Many women,despite the false claims that women are better communicators,seem to expect clairvoyance.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

Lardo said:


> Michelle Langley wrote about this in her second e-book, Women's Infidelity 2.
> 
> It seems a common misconception among some women that men are less emotionally evolved,despite all the male poets,philosophers,artist,authors etc. For some strange reason,despite all the evidence to the contrary,some women refuse to believe that they can go to their husbands and talk about their dissatisfaction.just bizzare,as most of my male friends talk about and share feelings like crazy( and,most of us were jocks).
> 
> Many women,despite the false claims that women are better communicators,seem to expect clairvoyance.




I don't understand your response in relation to what you quoted me saying.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

tigerlily99 said:


> I don't understand your response in relation to what you quoted me saying.


It has to do with the inner resentment many cheating and some non cheating women have for their husbands.
Langley found many dissatisfied wives expected clairvoyance of their husbands. Rather than communicating their dissatisfaction like adults,they resented their husbands inability to read their minds and the resentment fueled their justification for cheating.
She went on to say she,actually,found many of the men she interviewed were better communicators than their wives. She found,however,that when they honestly expressed their feelings,however,they had been criticized by their wives,as the wives preferred the husband mirror the wives feelings vs expressing his own.
The result: eventually ,the husbands did start to just clam up rather than be punished for not mirroring.
You mentioned in your first post having the prejudiced stereotype that you felt men incapable of intimate,emotional communication ( again,contrary to the abundance of philosophers,artists,authors,etc).
So,I thought,perhaps,you unfairly cut your husband out of the loop re issues. If you cling to this prejudice,it may hamper reconcilliation.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> Wrong. While it may be very few and far between, even Matt has suggested, at times, that a couple should separate, rather than reconcile. What he was saying to you is that your comment was, in no way, helpful. The OP has already stated that she knows it was wrong. She has already stated that _they_, not she, not he, but *they* have chosen to reconcile. They are 3+ years out, and she is now posting. They are in counseling. Pretty sure she knows what you felt you just *had* to state. It was unnecessary. That was what Matt was saying.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Well,she did comment on his accurate assessment re her definition of commitment vs her husband's. And,there is value in recognizing that,IMO.
So.maybe it was helpful.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

tigerlily99 said:


> I don't understand your response in relation to what you quoted me saying.


You might want to read the book to get exactly what was said instead of relying on the interpretations here by some people who are clearly very biased.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

*tion is Incredibly Hard Work*

We all have shortcomings.why would your husband having some fuel your affair? Did your vows provide for an exception in the event you perceived shortcomings? Mine did not.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> You might want to read the book to get exactly what was said instead of relying on the interpretations here by some people who are clearly very biased.


I agree. Number 2 was really spot on. I believe you will find I reported to you accurately.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Re: tion is Incredibly Hard Work*



Lardo said:


> We all have shortcomings.why would your husband having some fuel your affair? Did your vows provide for an exception in the event you perceived shortcomings? Mine did not.


The OP is 3.5 years into recovery. We are not going to use this thread to start attacking her.


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## stillthinking (Jun 1, 2016)

Hey Tiger,

Glad you both came to your senses before either affair got physical. Once that boundary is crossed its very, very difficult to R. Not that what you are dealing with is easy by any means.

Rooting of you guys and hope you make it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Whirlpool said:


> You reconciled with your cheating spouse. Got it.
> 
> Therefore anyone who recommends kicking a cheater to the curb disagrees with your philosophy and is wrong.
> 
> ...


You are 100% wrong.

You have got nothing right, so far.

But here's an idea. Why do you not screen your own posts before you make them?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Tiger Lily, anyone who is R will tell you it is a tough process, there are so many raw feelings, needs not expresses, hurts and wounds to overcome. I have no doubt though with a good therapist this can be done but it will take time, maybe 5 years plus and you will both always be on your guard, though that is not necessarily a bad thing as you wont take each other for granted and be aware of signs of slippage.

If you and your H have wholeheartedly committed to making it work, it will work. Much of what happens imo in reconciliation cannot be merely based on feelings, it it were many of the Rs would not work. It has to be based on a solid commitment to stick it out and go through the good and the bad and be honest with one another. Nothing beats transparency.
I too am in R and struggling, I doubt myself, I doubt him, he is not the best communicator though he is very emotional and is very easily hurt.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> You are 100% wrong.
> 
> You have got nothing right, so far.
> 
> ...


Children, please! :grin2::grin2::grin2::grin2:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

aine said:


> Children, please! :grin2::grin2::grin2::grin2:


We have some new folks who could be really helpful on TAM if they could learn to follow the rules and learn that different does not mean enemy.

And that attacking other people even people who cheated, or who reconciled with their former cheater, will not be viewed favourably.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

tigerlily99 said:


> Thank you @citygirl4344
> I agree. The hardest part of choosing to reconcile and truly give it my all, is realizing it may NOT work.
> That's why we went back to counseling this month. We were getting to the point that we had no new ideas or tools and we were both stuck in a painful place.




I agree...that is by far the hardest part. Knowing you might fail miserably. But if you feel it's worth fighting for then you do it and hope the work you put in saves you. I am in an R right now and you have good days and you have bad days. If your bad days start outnumbering your good days you have a problem. 
I do wish you luck...you have owned your part in this which is hard to do , especially here on TAM.
Hang in there.


Sent from my iPhone


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> You are 100% wrong.
> 
> You have got nothing right, so far.
> 
> ...


I would consider the source of this idea.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I am pretty good TigerLily. I agree, R is very, very hard. Especially with double infidelity. I think he would rather that I had an EA rather than a PA and I would rather he’d had a PA than and EA, but considering the opposite is what happened, this is what we’re dealing with. We’re both choosing to stay and love each other through it. It’s tough. I want so many things to change as far as our communication, transparency, being raw and open. He seems to want things to just be a better version of what it used to be without putting much work into himself. Though he expects great changes from me. If I bring up something to him, he can acknowledge it as a problem, but lacks either the skill or desire to look within to change it. I have some skill to look within and change things and very much desire to do so, but sometimes it’s hard. When you’ve done things a certain way for so long it’s hard to change your gut reactions and what comes out of your mouth before you think. But we ARE both trying in many ways. I just think I’m a little more open to doing whatever it takes whereas he’s more “whatever will be will be”. 

I get what you mean about it being a friend so your guard was not up as much as it should have been. I was the same way. My AP was my husbands best friend and I considered him a good friend of mine. You don’t think someone who has always been a friend, and especially a friend to your spouse would cross a boundary so your guard is lessened. When you view someone with friendly feelings and nothing more, you feel safer to be yourself around them without that wall up blocking things. The night I did what I did, I never felt like I was putting myself at risk of anything happening. I wasn’t attracted to him, I’d never been. I’d never had any reason to think he was attracted to me. I’d been places with him several times and never felt that he would pursue me or put our friendship, his friendship with my husband, my friendship with his (now) wife at jeopardy. We were just friends. Earlier in the night, we’d been at a bar where I was being pursued heavily by another guy and no matter how many times I told the guy I was uninterested, married, etc. the guy wouldn’t back off. My AP stepped in and told him to back the F off because I was married to his best friend! Why wouldn’t I feel safe with this guy? For Pete’s sake he’d helped me with another guy being inappropriate just a few hours before. I’d ridden in cars with him before, he’d stopped by the house when my husband wasn’t home before to pick something up or drop something off, we’d been alone several times where NOTHING had ever even been mentioned. I was under the impression that he was happily involved with his girlfriend (now wife), was a good friend to our marriage and to my husband. He’d often joked that if J and I ever split up, J got to keep him in the divorce and that we wouldn’t be friends anymore. I had ZERO reason to think things would escalate the way they did that night. The first time he said something, I thought he was just joking and being inappropriate. I still had no real feelings that he would try to cross the line. We’d been drinking all day and night and I took it as an inappropriate joke. Had this been someone I was not familiar with or wary of, my guard would have been up and nothing would have been “allowed” to slip by rationalizing the excuse that he was just a friend who had drank too much and didn’t realize what he was saying.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

aine said:


> Tiger Lily, anyone who is R will tell you it is a tough process, there are so many raw feelings, needs not expresses, hurts and wounds to overcome. I have no doubt though with a good therapist this can be done but it will take time, maybe 5 years plus and you will both always be on your guard, though that is not necessarily a bad thing as you wont take each other for granted and be aware of signs of slippage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you so much @aine for your heartfelt description of exactly what I'm going through! Honestly I always feel encouraged by knowing it may take 5+ years, or be harder than I realize, etc. because it gives me hope that we will make it.
Three and a half years feels like forever!! 
It feels even longer than the previous 20!
But we are both very much engaged and working hard. Sort of like birth. Lol

I really like what you said about R not being merely based on feelings. 
That really strikes me as a truth I need to keep top of mind. I am a very deep feeling person, and like yours, my H is emotional and easily hurt. (esp now) 
I am asking my H to learn to communicate when he's hurting or thinking things through or just zoning out. 
It helps, but what you said is so true, I need to focus on my choices, not my feelings. 
My choice IS to stick it out through good and bad. 

I'm sorry for your pain and doubt as you and your H go through R. I hope for the better days to outweigh the hard ones!


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

TigerLily,

Does your H read on this site?

Perhaps it would help him feel less alone in his experience to read how others felt and processed.

Tamat


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

LosingHim said:


> We’re both choosing to stay and love each other through it. It’s tough. I want so many things to change as far as our communication, transparency, being raw and open. He seems to want things to just be a better version of what it used to be without putting much work into himself. Though he expects great changes from me. If I bring up something to him, he can acknowledge it as a problem, but lacks either the skill or desire to look within to change it. I have some skill to look within and change things and very much desire to do so, but sometimes it’s hard. When you’ve done things a certain way for so long it’s hard to change your gut reactions and what comes out of your mouth before you think.


Wow, yes! This portion of what you said I can really relate with. Especially that part about doing something a certain way for so long it's hard to change...THAT is the crux of the very hardest part of this. Plus we both want different changes to take place sometimes!
I want to tear everything down to the the studs and remodel and he wants to just rearrange the furniture. Lol 






LosingHim said:


> I get what you mean about it being a friend so your guard was not up as much as it should have been. I was the same way. My AP was my husbands best friend and I considered him a good friend of mine. You don’t think someone who has always been a friend, and especially a friend to your spouse would cross a boundary so your guard is lessened. When you view someone with friendly feelings and nothing more, you feel safer to be yourself around them without that wall up blocking things. The night I did what I did, I never felt like I was putting myself at risk of anything happening. I wasn’t attracted to him



Yes. I appreciate you expressing your understanding of the part about not having my guards up BECAUSE he was a friend of my H. 
What's weird to me still is that I fell for him. I was the one who had the feelings and attraction. This was so bewildering to me because I thought that I could still be friends even though I really liked him. In this way I guess I thought I was stronger than I was. I did try two separate times to tell my H that I was attracted to OM but his response was to get angry and withdraw. He didn't understand at the time that I was just asking for help and support I wasn't saying that I wanted to leave him for OM. 

I kept feeling like the only way to handle it was the same way I handled everything, reject my feelings, because they were bad, push them down and hide them and they would go away. 

I didn't know that they would come back up to bite me.
I'm not making any excuses I'm just explaining why I fooled even myself because of my faulty way of handling 'bad' emotions all along in my life.
Clearly neither my H nor I knew how to handle this in a marriage protecting way.

After the EA came out to the forefront I focused a lot on this and worked very hard on learning about why I had such a faulty system for handling bad thoughts or feelings. I've changed a lot in the last 3-1/2 years to say the least.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

TigerLily,

Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression that there was very little wrong with your marriage when you had the EA. It wasn't that you disliked your H and you bonded with OM because you complained about your spouses. 

Do you think it was a one sided EA or did the OM have his sights on you?

Tamat


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

tigerlily99 said:


> I do love my husband very much.
> I couldn't bring myself to recommit to him after the EA without settling in my heart that I was chosing him not just settling for him.


How have you conveyed this to him?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

tigerlily99 said:


> @Whirlpool and @Lardo
> I am not saying that makes it ok because I didn't notice. But it did reveal a character flaw in myself that I was checked out of connection with my own needs, feelings and motives.


What about your husbands needs and feelings. This to me is your problem. Love is a giving action not a receiving one. In all your posts your discussion is about not getting what you need. "If I had only opened up and he had giving me this," You are responsible for your own needs your husband. 

Your relationship is not about you fulfilling something missing from your life. You should be married because you want to give to your husband because you love him. Not because he completes you, because he can't and he won't, maybe for a time but it won't last forever, your affair is proof of this. 

Until you get this point you will struggle.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

Lardo said:


> It has to do with the inner resentment many cheating and some non cheating women have for their husbands.
> 
> Langley found many dissatisfied wives expected clairvoyance of their husbands. Rather than communicating their dissatisfaction like adults,they resented their husbands inability to read their minds and the resentment fueled their justification for cheating.
> 
> ...



In the past my H communicated with me by using facts and information without actually listening to my heart and connecting with me.

He is learning to listen and ask questions without assuming he knows exactly how I feel. 

He is NOT a bad communicator but he struggles to be able to hear me BECAUSE he is trying to read my mind without actually asking for clarification or accurately reading between the lines.

He wants to fix my problem before he's accurately heard my heart. He automatically assumes the worst case scenario and then works back from there.

This is hurtful when I'm just wanting him to hear me and comfort me or work out a solution together and he monologues about the answer while I just listen and nod. I just want HIS opinion & feelings on the matter not the whole blueprint for how to fix it.

I do understand fully that he tends to be a fixer and I now understand that his motive is love. Back then I thought his motive was, let's get this done quick so I can go back to more fun things because he would say things like that.


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

sokillme said:


> What about your husbands needs and feelings. This to me is your problem. Love is a giving action not a receiving one. In all your posts your discussion is about not getting what you need. "If I had only opened up and he had giving me this," You are responsible for your own needs your husband.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Can I a million like? Lol. In general (I have no idea about the two posters mentioned) this is it or what marriage should be.


Sent from my iPhone


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

sokillme said:


> What about your husbands needs and feelings. This to me is your problem. Love is a giving action not a receiving one. In all your posts your discussion is about not getting what you need. "If I had only opened up and he had giving me this," You are responsible for your own needs your husband.
> 
> Your relationship is not about you fulfilling something missing from your life. You should be married because you want to give to your husband because you love him. Not because he completes you, because he can't and he won't, maybe for a time but it won't last forever, your affair is proof of this.
> 
> Until you get this point you will struggle.


And her husband should give to her because HE wants to as well. If she has needs, he should be willing to fulfill them in ways that she interprets love. I am not placing the blame on him for her affair, not by any means. I’m saying that a lot of times ANY kind of break down in marriage happens because people stop listening to each other, doing for each other and realizing what the spouse needs. Many people give up on those things after the courtship/honeymoon is over. That’s when things start to fall apart. Not neccesarily to the point of an affair, but to resentment and needs not being met. When needs are not met, emotional connection wanes and you begin to exist together rather than to love. 

We all reach a point in marriage where we have to determine if certain things aren’t being met, if they are things that we are willing to do without or if they are things that we need in order to be happy. Are they deal breakers if we’re not receiving them? Are they irrational things or obtainable? I don’t think anything she’s stated she needs is irrational or unobtainable. As long as you are not asking your spouse to change their integral BEING, I don’t think it’s irresponsible to ask your spouse to meet your needs. 

I’m a simple woman. I need very little in the way of being happy. One of my major ways I interpret love is physical touch. My husband is not a physically affectionate man. He likes the occasional hug and lots of sex, but outside of a hello and goodbye kiss, he’s not a kisser. Me, on the other hand, I want to kiss all the time. So when my husband doesn’t kiss me as often as I’d like, I feel a level of being unfulfilled. I’ve countered that with just kissing him without expecting him to kiss me first. I love cuddling, my husband is not a cuddler. I asked him Sunday night if he would cuddle with me. His response was disheartening. We hadn’t seen each other much all weekend and I just wanted to lay in his arms. His response was that he needed to sweep the pool, eat and do some stuff for work and by the time he was done, I’d be asleep. Feeling like my husband couldn’t take 5 of those minutes and just cuddle with me left a need unfulfilled in me. I don’t have to cuddle to be happy, but it surely adds to my sense of feeling loved and therefore happiER. I text him yesterday at work and said “Can I pretty please have some cuddle time tonight? I’m feeling sorely neglected in the cuddly affectionate area and I demand you give me some tonight!” with a face with a tongue sticking out. Obviously joking, but wanting to let him know that need in me was unfulfilled. At that point it became whether or not he wanted to fill my need for that type of closeness and affection. And he did. He responded “I shall grant you some cuddle time tonight my dear”. Right before I went to bed, he cuddled with me for 20 minutes. 

That is just one small example. On the grander scale of the whole marriage, we should be striving to meet our mates needs without them having to beg for it. And if the needs they have are something that you cannot meet, then the spouse should communicate that they are unwilling or unable to meet those needs.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> And her husband should give to her because HE wants to as well. If she has needs, he should be willing to fulfill them in ways that she interprets love. I am not placing the blame on him for her affair, not by any means. I’m saying that a lot of times ANY kind of break down in marriage happens because people stop listening to each other, doing for each other and realizing what the spouse needs. Many people give up on those things after the courtship/honeymoon is over. That’s when things start to fall apart. Not neccesarily to the point of an affair, but to resentment and needs not being met. When needs are not met, emotional connection wanes and you begin to exist together rather than to love.
> 
> We all reach a point in marriage where we have to determine if certain things aren’t being met, if they are things that we are willing to do without or if they are things that we need in order to be happy. Are they deal breakers if we’re not receiving them? Are they irrational things or obtainable? I don’t think anything she’s stated she needs is irrational or unobtainable. As long as you are not asking your spouse to change their integral BEING, I don’t think it’s irresponsible to ask your spouse to meet your needs.
> 
> ...


I am not talking about needs so much as issues. They can address your needs in the marriage but not the issues in you as a person. 

My point is that if you go into a marriage thinking. Once I get married I will never be lonely again. I will never feel insecure again. It won't happen. Then people who think like this think, I'm married and I still feel lonely some times I must not have a good marriage. That's not the way it works even in the best marriages. There will be times when you are busy or not connecting and guess what you will feel lonely. This normal the best way to deal with all of this is to talk about it, or if the circumstances at the time prevent you from being together then you suck it up, hold on to your vows and trust that when the opportunities arise you will have time to catch up. You need to do this in every aspect of your marriage. 

Marriage doesn't fix your issues, you just bring them with you into it. Only you can fix your issues, it's not fair to put that on your SO. They won't be able to do that, and if you expect them to then you will be disappointed in them and your marriage. 

The only thing you have a right to expect from your spouse is for them to give you love, respect, treat you with respect and finally that they always try. 

I read so many of these stories all the time it always comes down to people thinking, "I am unhappy, I am entitled to be happy". Not more then you are required to follow your vows. You need to work for happiness in the context of your vows, or divorce. Your spouse is not responsible for your happiness.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

@sokillme your latest posts are really difficult for me to respond to. It feels like you are making big assumptions about my marriage without asking me any questions.
I am afraid to give more information for fear that it sounds like I'm defending myself or my EA.
Knowing that I allowed myself to slip into an EA seems to say it all for you. I recognize that perhaps It triggers painful memories or feelings in your own situation? Or sympathy for other BS's including my H?

My purpose of beginning this thread is to get insight into R after 3-1/2 years of working at it. If I was completely selfish and cared only about my feelings then my H would've already left by now. He's a pretty no-nonsense kind of guy. 

Is there a question that you want me to answer to give you more insight?


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

@LosingHim you have a great way of communicating the ways you and your H have learned to bring your differences together. The cuddle thing was cute and my H and I are similar except HE is the physical touch/cuddle lover
We have started this thing that he loves, I have a timer set on my phone at 7pm every night and it's a very soothing ringtone. When it goes off I go find him wherever he is and cuddle him for 10-15 minutes. 
At first I didn't tell him about the timer because I thought it might make him feel bad but he found out and just loved it! In fact the ring has become like Pavlov's puppy for my H. When he hears it he feels good even if we are out and can't cuddle. Lol!! 
He's so cute!


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## Whirlpool (Jul 25, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> We have some new folks who could be really helpful on TAM if they could learn to follow the rules and learn that different does not mean enemy.
> 
> And that attacking other people even people who cheated, or who reconciled with their former cheater, will not be viewed favourably.


No offense @MattMatt but your posts sound like they've been written by a 12 year old.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Whirlpool said:


> No offense @MattMatt but your posts sound like they've been written by a 12 year old.


Thank you for your comment, the contents of which have been noted.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

tigerlily99 said:


> @sokillme your latest posts are really difficult for me to respond to. It feels like you are making big assumptions about my marriage without asking me any questions.
> I am afraid to give more information for fear that it sounds like I'm defending myself or my EA.
> Knowing that I allowed myself to slip into an EA seems to say it all for you. I recognize that perhaps It triggers painful memories or feelings in your own situation? Or sympathy for other BS's including my H?
> 
> ...


 @tigerlily99 *Sokillme has been banned by the Moderators. *

It's possible that not all of his posts were as genuine or as helpful as he made them out to be.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Well don't listen to anything I had to say about R. I found out today my husband liked a picture of his AP on Instagram. Everything I've said, felt or talked about is completely null and void.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> Well don't listen to anything I had to say about R. I found out today my husband liked a picture of his AP on Instagram. Everything I've said, felt or talked about is completely null and void.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, damn it, @LosingHim! That's horrible! 

That doesn't make what you said null and void. Though I am thinking maybe your husband just nulled and voided himself?


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

Oh no @Losing him!! I'm so sorry. But I agree with @MattMatt it doesn't make what you've shared null and void. Unfortunately though it's like I'm learning with R it's about making yourself a whole person and hoping that your spouse will recommit to you. 
The double affair with you guys definitely makes it much more complicated it seems. 
Ugh. My heart aches for you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> Well don't listen to anything I had to say about R. I found out today my husband liked a picture of his AP on Instagram. Everything I've said, felt or talked about is completely null and void.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @LosingHim


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

LosingHim said:


> Well don't listen to anything I had to say about R. I found out today my husband liked a picture of his AP on Instagram. Everything I've said, felt or talked about is completely null and void.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm so sorry. This would be a dealbreaker for me.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

OP - I haven't thoroughly read everybody's responses. My husband and I are in recovery. Things have been very good for a couple months now. However, he is 6.5 years out from my infidelity and I am 4.5 years out from his. THAT is how long it is taking us. I would say it took both of us 3-4 years to really get that the other spouses wanted to be married to us. We stumbled, a lot. However, we did put a lot of time into IC and MC. You MUST do this together. Can you also read? There are many good books out there. Anything by Gottman. 
It takes TWO to recover - one to change their broken self (the WS) and the very hurt BS. The BS has work to do simply by the mere fact that they are betrayed... whether they STAY or not. SO.... your husband NEEDS TO DO THIS WORK. It doesn't matter if you stay married. He needs to heal. He needs to be vulnerable again.. Outside help can help him with this, as you can , but you can only make yourself safe for him and heal yourself so you never do this again. 
Have you done everything in your power to make him feel safe, loved, and shown him how much work you've done on yourself?
Has the OM's wife been told?
I truly get that you love each other and you want to get close. But understand the gunshyness here. People say it takes 2-5 years, and you didn't even sleep with this guy. But I think it takes about 10 and truly, I'm not sure people ever heal 100%. It just takes too much out of a person. It changes them. Permanently and forever. So realize that as you try to put this marriage back together. 
He needs to take charge of his healing. You need to take charge of yours.
Honestly, I'd recommend a Retrouvaille weekend for you guys to really get closer. Do you have those in your state? We do not.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Didn't Gottman get divorced TWICE?


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

katies said:


> OP - I would say it took both of us 3-4 years to really get that the other spouses wanted to be married to us. We stumbled, a lot. However, we did put a lot of time into IC and MC. You MUST do this together. Can you also read? There are many good books out there. Anything by Gottman.


This feels about right. It was just last month that I wrote my H a long letter describing my perspective of the timeline of our last few years and I felt that he had not yet chosen me as the 'new me' who has made a lot of changes during this time. He assured me that he HAD already chosen me and he wouldn't still be here if he hadn't. I felt sort of silly that I had been believing that he was just hanging on because felt he had to.



katies said:


> It takes TWO to recover - one to change their broken self (the WS) and the very hurt BS. The BS has work to do simply by the mere fact that they are betrayed... whether they STAY or not. SO.... your husband NEEDS TO DO THIS WORK. It doesn't matter if you stay married. He needs to heal. He needs to be vulnerable again.. Outside help can help him with this, as you can , but you can only make yourself safe for him and heal yourself so you never do this again.
> Have you done everything in your power to make him feel safe, loved, and shown him how much work you've done on yourself?
> Has the OM's wife been told?


Yes I do believe I have done everything within my power to first face my demons and character flaws--and change. Then to share those changes with him and let him see my vulnerability and ask questions when he has them. 
Yes the OMs wife was told, by me actually because I was her friend. I wrote her a letter apologizing and telling her that I had developed an emotional attachment to her H . It was humiliating but I felt I owed her that because I was her friend. (Some friend, I know.) She didn't speak to me for two years and then I wrote to her again to see where she was at with things and she wrote me a very heartfelt and kind letter telling me how she had really felt about me and her perception of the things I had done to make her feel bad and left out, etc. She said that she could never imagine us being friends again but she had no hard feelings with me and wished me and my H the best. 
(Also she and OM moved very far away last year so there is no chance of bumping into them while shopping or anything like that. Although H still works for the same company as OM so he still interacts with him on a professional level.)



katies said:


> I truly get that you love each other and you want to get close. But understand the gunshyness here. People say it takes 2-5 years, and you didn't even sleep with this guy. But I think it takes about 10 and truly, I'm not sure people ever heal 100%. It just takes too much out of a person. It changes them. Permanently and forever. So realize that as you try to put this marriage back together.
> He needs to take charge of his healing. You need to take charge of yours.
> Honestly, I'd recommend a Retrouvaille weekend for you guys to really get closer. Do you have those in your state? We do not.



I don't know what Retrouvaille is but we do have something similar called Love After Marriage. I've been thinking about going to that. I donno right now, but I like what you're saying about each taking charge of our own healing.
I have been feeling so guilty and so responsible for the pain and distrust and sensitivity that my H has been going through that it's caused me to be in an unhealthy place in my relating to him. 
I feel I'm always taking his emotional temperature to gauge what might happen next. (He is very unpredictable lately with his reactions to me.)

The counselor actually told me that I needed to work on not being so enmeshed with him and allow him to feel how he feels without taking it on.
This is hard because I feel I must go through everything he is going through with him since I caused his pain.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> Didn't Gottman get divorced TWICE?




Yes, apparently so, but his book The Seven Principals for Making Marriage Work was a huge help for H and I during our early R. It really gave us a lot of good tools and also brought us some really solid direction when we were floundering big time.

It seems Gottman learned from his mistakes and found some real keys to success in later years. I highly recommend the book to anyone who I talk to about marriage woes.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

LosingHim said:


> Well don't listen to anything I had to say about R. I found out today my husband liked a picture of his AP on Instagram. Everything I've said, felt or talked about is completely null and void.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So sorry LH, so have you confronted him? You H is either obtuse or playing with fire and trying to get a rise out of you?

What on earth are his motives, ask him. Did you have ground rules about this type of thing?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> Didn't Gottman get divorced TWICE?


Once I believe when he was actually a relationship counsellor/lecturer His divorce set him on the quest of his life to find out what made marriages work and not work, hence the current body of work we have


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

aine said:


> So sorry LH, so have you confronted him? You H is either obtuse or playing with fire and trying to get a rise out of you?
> 
> What on earth are his motives, ask him. Did you have ground rules about this type of thing?


He could just be suffering from the dreadful condition known by the acronym SMS. That's Stupid Man Syndrome.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@tigerlily99 Your thread will be a good deal quieter now the naughty children have been sent to the Principal's office! :rofl:

If you notice that any other person on TAM is harassing you, bullying you or are acting in an inappropriate manner in the future please do not hesitate to use the report icon (the exclamation point to the left of each post) and report them.

You come here for help, not to be the target for people of ill intent.

Anyhow, how's it going for you and your family?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

aine said:


> Once I believe when he was actually a relationship counsellor/lecturer His divorce set him on the quest of his life to find out what made marriages work and not work, hence the current body of work we have


Interesting. Thanks.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

I'm a cuddler - did that yesterday afternoon and it turned into a nap. 

Sorry to hear about the LIKE situation with your H. Setbacks do happen, even I myself have my OFF says with WS... but why is he even able to see her posts, grrrr? (I don't use that app).


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

tigerlily99 said:


> Background: in April of 2013 my H realized or discovered that I was having an EA with one of his best friends. I had only just begun to realize it was becoming an inappropriate friendship myself about two months prior *and had literally made the decision to tell him the very weekend he found out. *(At that time I didn't even know what an EA was)


Honestly confess?

It is amazing how many WS when caught at DD were planning to confess or had already ended the affair because of they knew it was inappropriate.

Yeah!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

RWB said:


> Honestly confess?
> 
> It is amazing how many WS when caught at DD were planning to confess or had already ended the affair because of they knew it was inappropriate.
> 
> Yeah!


It's possible that the WS is tuned into their BS and realise, subconscious, that the BS knows something is awry.

So, is thinking: "I really must stop my affair!" But by that time, BS often already knows, so it is a case of too little, too late.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

tigerlilly, please stay with the counselor. I was reading Hendrix's book Getting The Love You Want recently, and he says that when he counsels couples, he tells them that they have to make a promise - to go to at least ten sessions before bailing on him. Why? Because it takes that long to get past the he said/she said, feel heard, hurt the other to feel vindicated...and THEN the couple can get down to the real work of fixing things. As a team.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I do not want to threadjack @TigerLily ‘s thread with my drama. I appreciate the concern a few of you have expressed here. My thread is in the private members section with the latest info on all of this if you want to respond there. 

Sorry Tigerlily for jumping in here and posting that, I just felt like anything I’d said here was pretty much voided by his actions and I posted in anger. 

I hope things go well for you and your husband. R has a special place in my heart, especially now since it’s evident mine isn’t working. I hope for the best for you.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

TaDor said:


> I'm a cuddler - did that yesterday afternoon and it turned into a nap.




Yes cuddling usually turns into a nap for my H too. 
I used to feel resentful of this because I wanted to talk after cuddling. But now I have my own separate talk time and he doesn't give me a hard time anymore for leaving once he falls asleep.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> @tigerlily99 Your thread will be a good deal quieter now the naughty children have been sent to the Principal's office! :rofl


Thanks for the advice. I tend to always think the best so I couldn't tell if they were giving me trouble or not.  



MattMatt said:


> Anyhow, how's it going for you and your family?



Thank you for asking. H and I have an appointment tomorrow with our counselor. We meet at 4pm and then have our date night afterward. I'm looking forward to it.

There is a lot more peace in our household since we got a little infusion of hope during our last appointment. 
We had gotten to a place of feeling like we had tried everything and were STILL missing each others efforts. 

So hope was very much needed. 
Our counselor is awesome. My H really trusts her and she always gets him laughing with really gives her a lot of equity with him. She also caters to me as the more serious, let's make the most of this hour, person. 
When she talks to my H she explains to me what she is doing and why it's working.

I donno why we didn't go back sooner, just got mired in hopelessness. I guess.

So overall, things are looking up this week compared to last week when I was contemplating staying with a friend for a month to give our poor emotions a break from the disappointment of trying and trying 
yet always missing each other's true good intentions.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

LosingHim said:


> Sorry Tigerlily for jumping in here and posting that, I just felt like anything I’d said here was pretty much voided by his actions and I posted in anger.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope things go well for you and your husband. R has a special place in my heart, especially now since it’s evident mine isn’t working. I hope for the best for you.



@LosingHim No need to apologize. You seem like a very passionate, honest and genuine person. I can see that in that moment you felt that you had spoken too soon and wanted to let me know right away.
But everything you said was and is still very helpful. I hope that as you are emotionally able you will still share your insights here. I value what you have been through even if it doesn't turn out the way you've envisioned. You have a lot of experience under your belt and your straightforward genuineness is something to be admired. 

I wish you the very best and I'll be keeping up on your thread as well.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

turnera said:


> tigerlilly, please stay with the counselor. I was reading Hendrix's book Getting The Love You Want recently, and he says that when he counsels couples, he tells them that they have to make a promise - to go to at least ten sessions before bailing on him. Why? Because it takes that long to get past the he said/she said, feel heard, hurt the other to feel vindicated...and THEN the couple can get down to the real work of fixing things. As a team.




Another book and author that I have read and studied...awesome! Hendrix's book REALLY helped me to get through the self healing by ripping open my true motives and revealing my Imagio. 

Painful stuff. I learned that I had a certain idea of what my perfect compliment is in a man based on a composite of my dad and a bunch of unfinished business from childhood. (Thankfully I didn't marry that kind of person) 

I recommend that book to any WS who is trying to figure out why they did what they did and get healing. Do all of the worksheets. It's VERY eye-opening.

Thank you for your encouragement to stay with MC @turnera We will.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

TigerLily, I am genuinely trying to understand your situation and in particular, what is so hard (for you) and what you are struggling with.

If I got this correct:

You love your husband and always did over the 20 years.

You meet your husband's friend and his wife and become firm friends but have more of an interaction with the "OM" (if you can call him that) since both of you are the planners in your families.

Over time you communicate more with him and start to develop "feelings" (not sure what feelings) for him.

This is done in full view of your respective spouses and they are aware of the conversations (nothing hidden).

There is nothing inappropriate or even flirty in your communications. There is just a lot of communications.

Your friend points out that this might be developing into something more and then you realise it too. You plan to tell your husband when he "finds out" (finds out what exactly????)

You are (as you have always been) completely honest with your husband and also admit to not only him but to the OMW that you were developing some "feelings" for her husband.

It then ends and you two commit to each other again and are working at being better at this going forward.


So….. what are you now struggling with ? Are you missing the OM ? Are you having second thoughts about your husband ? What ? I can understand that your husband was upset that you started to develop feelings for his friend, but thats all it was, nothing more. And he knows that too. So not entirely sure what he is struggling with ?

Unless there is a shed load more than what has been said on this thread e.g. you told your husband that you were in love with the OM etc.

Please help me understand.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

manfromlamancha said:


> TigerLily, I am genuinely trying to understand your situation and in particular, what is so hard (for you) and what you are struggling with....
> 
> ...Please help me understand.




Thank you for taking the time to read my posts and having enough interest to summarize...great summary btw!

This is probably one of MY biggest questions sometimes too! 
One of my therapists said this was the most 'benign affair' she'd ever heard of.

I really debated over putting this thread in long term marriage titled Overhauling Your Marriage is Incredibly Hard but I knew once the EA came up it would become the focal point anyway so I decided to start with it. 

The truth is the EA REALLY threw both my H and I for a loop. Especially my H. He was devastated. And he lost all confidence in our marriage and my loyalty and in himself.
(At least from my perspective)
It became the catalyst for the changes in our M that needed to take place anyway. 


The place we are at is a life transition. The hard part is the trying to navigate what to keep and what to throw out. It seems I want to throw out the attributes that he wants to keep and vice versa.

The other hard part is trying to both find who we are in this transition without leaving the relationship.

The MORE you alluded to consists of my H's anger issues throughout the first 18 years of our marriage that helped me feel like I wasn't allowed to make mistakes, me having memories of repressed CSA when I turned 35, my boys leaving home causing me to question my usefulness, so like a lot of people on here who find themselves compromised I was in a vulnerable place when I began my friendship with 'OM'

Perhaps the EA was the breaking point, the catalyst, the wake up call...but the true issue was the need for our marriage status quo to change. 

Another hard part is believing that my H likes the changes I've made. I wasn't always as honest with him about my inner truth as I am now and he sometimes feels I am too opinionated too strong willed and not at all like the soft-spoken, submissive, sweet little housewife and momma that I used to be. 

Those are the things that are hard for me.

BUT I think for my H, he never dealt with the feelings he had three years ago when it happened. It's only now coming out. I could be wrong. 

l feel I am in a weird place here on TAM because on one hand I'm considered a terrible cheating selfish wife or...having had a benign affair that I am overacting to. (Quoting my counselor, not you.)

Does that clear anything up for you?


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

@manfromlamancha we discussed this once before http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showthread.php?p=15075513#/topics/320657?page=3&_k=ttrub0


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> Well don't listen to anything I had to say about R. I found out today my husband liked a picture of his AP on Instagram. Everything I've said, felt or talked about is completely null and void.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




And this is what the process is all about. You take two steps forward and sometimes three steps back. Be prepared for ups and downs. In some cases a down will be the start of more unraveling. 
@TigerLily stay with your counselor and keep posting. I really think you are remorseful and are trying to better yourself. I commend you.


Sent from my iPhone


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Tiger,

A few questions... sorry if you have already answered this.

Did you ever meet up with the OM without your H or OMW in tow?
Did your conversations with OM ever progress from "my H doesn't understand" to sexual flirtatious talk?
Did you consciously delete all written (Text, Email) interactions with OM to hide your "relationship" with OM?


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

RWB said:


> Tiger,
> 
> A few questions... sorry if you have already answered this.
> 
> ...




I don't know if the answers to these questions will help or not at this juncture, but no I never met up with OM w/o H. One time he came over to drop off and pick up his daughter (I babysat) and another time he was alone and dropped off something he had borrowed but did not come into the house. (My H asked me about this.) One time I gave him a ride because my H asked me to. 

No our conversations did not go there. I did not complain about H. But we did discuss marriage in general. There was no sexual talk online but he was a very flirtatious type of guy in general. He and my H were always making sexual jokes and the atmosphere was always highly charged for me when we were all together. 

No I did not hide my messages, they were on FB and my H had the password but apparently he never checked up on me until the end when he became suspicious and read them. 

In the end it wasn't the content but the amount of messages since we were chatting several times a day and H didn't know that.
When H later confronted OM he was told that he was starting to feel bad about that. (?)

He was more like a good friend which probably would've been fine except that I didn't have that at the time with my H which is why I thought it was innocent and then was confused that my heart 'jumped ship'. 

Why do you ask?


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

tigerlily99 said:


> Why do you ask?


You never met him in private... arranged a date. Only dealing with kids, babysitting. 
Your communications (lots) never crossed "the line". Nothing sexual, No spouse bashing, no romantic dreams of running away with your soul mate. 
You hid nothing. Your H had full access. 

Tiger, your crime, developing an opposite sex friendship with a man other than H. Ask someone that's been cheated on if opposite sex friendships are a good thing for a marriage.

Were you deep in an affair? Nope. Was it right? Nope. Can you R from this? Probably.

Here's the thing, (preaching to the choir), you were treading on the slippery slope. You know you enjoyed the attention, you played the game and waited and wanted the next text, email, FB exchange. While plain vanilla, it still gave you a charge. Learn from it, get MC, work on the root cause of your decisions.

Downside... you have lost your H trust. He probably doesn't believe you in full and may never fully trust you from hence forth.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

tigerlily99 said:


> Thank you for taking the time to read my posts and having enough interest to summarize...great summary btw!
> 
> This is probably one of MY biggest questions sometimes too!
> One of my therapists said this was the most 'benign affair' she'd ever heard of.
> ...


Not completely but its a little more than I understood before.

So, some more questions (sorry) and observations:

Why are you calling this an EA ? If the "OM" had been a woman would you still call it an EA ? Or are/were you attracted to him sexually ?

I understand that you saw traits in him that your husband didn't have but were these real or what you were seeing as a friend and not as his (the OM's) wife - would he still be as wonderful if you saw him warts and all ?

Or is it more a case of you don't really like (and I choose my words carefully here) your husband anymore ? In which case it would be hard to believe that you are really in love with him - just that you are grateful for some of the nice things he has done in the past. Maybe you love him but I am not even sure of that at this point.

So is this whole thread about you trying to understand if you should be looking for someone that you are attracted to and can fall in love with as opposed to settling for your husband ?

I think (and I could be wrong) that you need to be honest with yourself e.g. here is an honest discussion you could be having with yourself (and none of this may apply but here goes):

Am I attracted to hubby ? No I am not.
What kind of man would I be attracted to/like to have? Well he would have to look like XXXX, be as clever as YYYY and be as funny as ZZZZ. Also he would like to do AAAA in bed with me and he would like to do BBBB outdoors with me as a pastime/hobby/fun activities/interests. He would need to be passionate about CCCC - and hubby is none of these things!
Why did I marry hubby ? (Honest answer) I made a mistake but because I was young I did not realise it was a mistake (hindsight is great).
Would I marry him today if I met him knowing what I know ? No, definitely not!
Why is he attracted to me and why does he still want me ? Because I feel he couldn't do better than me.
Would I marry the OM if I could without hurting anyone? Yes in a heartbeat.
Would we have been happy together if I had married OM instead of hubby? Yes I believe so.
Is OM in love with me? Yes I believe so.
Would OM have sex with me if he could? Yes I believe so.
Do I want to thrash these details out so that I can feel better about finally leaving hubby? I think that is true.

And so on…. See it could be a really difficult discussion to have with someone else but with yourself, you need to be truthful!

Now if (any part of) what I have said in the example conversation above is true, then I can understand what you are struggling with. If none of it is true, then I am still confused!


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

I think the biggest problem some are having is that tigerlily is 3.5 years out already. I think that, more than anything else at this point, they are struggling with *staying* connected. It seems some are trying to bring the other guy back into the mix... but he had been OUT of it for over three years. There is no contact, nothing. And I truly think that what tigerlily is dealing with isn't the EA so much as remaining connected to her husband, so she doesn't develop feelings for another man, again. I am honestly unsure what has people confused about her situation. She already stated that she *had* feelings developing for him. *HAD*, folks. As in past tense. And she and her husband decided to stay together. I don't think those feelings are coming back for the other guy. In order for that to happen, there would have to be some sort of contact, which tigerlily already stated isn't happening. I think this truly is more about how to *stay* connected with her husband, how to *guard* herself from this sort of thing happening again. And I think continuing with counseling will help with that. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I think it'd be really neat if everyone read what TL wrote and not what they think she might have written. 

And ignore the less than helpful interjections of the banned ones.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

What @Maricha75 wrote today is true. My problem right now is trying to stay connected with my H as we both grow and change. 

Regardless of the lack of a sensational affair with lots of lurid details this was a very real breach of trust for us. 

I felt I couldn't trust myself and he felt he couldn't trust me.
But he also felt it was his fault for me being in that place of feeling so lonely and disconnected.

So he has carried that burden for the last 3 years trying to take care of me, make me happy, buy me things, etc. 

I'm not that kind of girl though that can be placated by stuff. So even though I have understood that he is expressing love to me by giving me material things all I really truly want is his heart.
@manfromlamancha your suggestion to have a conversation with myself is good advice but believe me, in the last 3-1/2 years I've done it many times. And I've had that conversation with my close friends as well.

I have been honest with myself, very, very honest. 
The place I am at now is that I am choosing, have chosen to stay with my H. I DO love him very much. He has shown me that he is willing to learn to meet me in the area where I need him most, which is vulnerability of heart. He has always struggled with emotions. He has them, but he just would rather gloss over them and make jokes. Which is fine sometimes just not when I need to hear the truth about his feelings about something.

I said earlier that it has taken H this long to begin processing his own feelings about the EA or 'inappropriate friendship' 

So H has been going through the emotions that were pent up and I've been having to press pause on the progress I have made to roll back the clock to where he left off in his emotional healing. 

I explained to him and I'll explain to you that my friendship with OM or whatever you wanna call him, made me see that indeed men are capable of being emotional connected with themselves and with others. The reason I thought I would never get that in my M wasn't because I was prejudiced as was suggested earlier but because my H didn't know how so he didn't do that. 
When I met this person who had a similar background to my H, got along really well with him AND whom my H really respected and even looked up to in some ways, I thought, wow I have really been expecting very little of my H for years!

At first I just was learning and admiring a different way that a man could act and be. Then as we became friends ourselves I began to transfer my interest directly to him rather than asking my H to meet me there.
It was easier, I was lonely, to the hungry even the bitter tastes sweet. (Bitter in this case meaning the situation, not the person.)

Anyway, so here we are 3-1/2 years later learning a new way of relating to one another but with all of this hurt and pain tossed into the mix.

Honestly I don't fully understand what my H feels in all of this except for that he loves me.
I thought we had been making tons of progress and that we were finally dealing the the issues that were in the M pre-EA, I felt we had moved on, but as has been mentioned here before things change that can never go back.

I teeter between feeling like it really wasn't THAT big of a deal to OMG I completely destroyed my H. 

Tonight we have counseling so maybe she can shed some light on it.

I'm personally feeling confused with all that is being dredged up in this thread. Not confused about what I want though. I want my H and I want a M that includes real feelings and a safe place to have them and be understood and comforted.

I don't want to always slog through a litany of facts and figures to be told if my feelings are valid or not. 
I want my H to not be afraid of emotions, his or mine.
I want our sex life to not be so filled with fear of rejection. 
I want my H to find the balance between processing his emotions and being the strong man he is. 

Emotions shut him down. He has to recover for a couple days after expressing strong emotions or talking about difficult things.

He is also unpredictable (to me) when it comes to how he will react to things. Some days I'll gingerly step into talking about an issue that I'm concerned will make him feel defensive and he will be totally fine with it and surprise me to no end.
Other days I barrel right into a conversation I think is no big deal and he will prickle and get defensive and shut down completely.

I guess the purpose of this thread is for me to process this phase with input from others on how to be understanding and patient and loving even whilst I am not always in an emotionally comfortable relationship. 

Learning how to not be enmeshed with his feelings and moods was the first 'assignment' our MC gave me.
It's been very interesting to watch myself in this area. H has helped me as well when I try to read his mood in order to gauge what I should do or not do. He will say, dont worry about me just say what you need to say, or do what you want to do, etc.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

His Needs Her Needs.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

OK thanks for the reply tigerlily. I think I finally get it.

You love your husband and he loves you. You are just choosing to deal with something that ideally should have been dealt with a long time ago - but …. better late than never.

The transference that took place with your husband's (and your) friend was just a wake up call.

In that case His Needs Her Needs as Turnera suggested is a great place to start as is the book on The 5 Languages Of Love Language.

Getting a man who is not externally emotional but highly emotional internally to change is a huge task but I am sure it can be done. Usually it takes something highly traumatic to shock him into action but I guess the fear that he might lose you to his friend probably did that. So keep at it and I am sure you will succeed. You seem to be more than half the way there by virtue of you knowing that it is something that needs to be addressed and you have articulated what needs to be addressed well in your last post.

Good luck!


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Naaa... we cuddle without sleep usually. We both fell asleep that day, when I knew she was going to and I had plans of things to do.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Is it possible that any issues in the marriage are just the natural results of two people ageing and growing together.

And not really anything to do with the EA on any meaningful way?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Is it possible that any issues in the marriage are just the natural results of two people ageing and growing together.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



@MattMatt it's true the our marriage needed a big shift. I was unhappy, lonely and unfulfilled but had no strength or confidence to do anything about it.
H was happy and enjoying the benefits of a wife who anticipated his needs and made his life comfortable and easy without him having to access his emotions.

The EA was the thing that made it possible to look at those issues. It gave me the strength I needed to find who I really was (because I never wanted to find myself in that position again) and it gave my H the wake up call he needed to see that I was unhappy.

I wish very much that it could've come another way. But that's not what happened.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

TigerLily, you are still calling it an EA. Why ? I did ask before.

I am just interested in your reason (not TAM's definition) for calling it an EA.

I understand that your marriage wasn't working out like you would expect and I understand the steps you are taking to fix that. I also understand that what you were feeling for the OM was admiration (that may not even have been justified) although it seems to be enough to jolt your husband into trying to change etc. But why are you calling your conversations etc with your husbands friend an EA ?


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## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

I think that you are doing and saying all the right things at this stage 

So that I can better understand, what was the day-to-day of the affair like? Would you wake up in the morning and text all day, or was it only when one or two of you were in need. What were the sexual undertones to the conversations?


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

manfromlamancha said:


> TigerLily, you are still calling it an EA. Why ? I did ask before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I call it an EA because of how **I** felt. 

I actually talked to my H about this a little bit yesterday. H reminded me that I told him (in response to him asking) that if he would've made a move I would have responded. 
H said, So the only reason it wasn't a full-blown affair is because OM never initiated and/or an opportunity never presented itself.

So there you have it. That's why I call it an EA. plus it took me 9 months+ to get over my 'friendship' with him.

What I don't understand is why it's important to figure out whether it was an EA or not if I feel that it was? 

I mean details about my relationship with another guy that is not my H seem like they defeat the purpose of this forum? Isn't this forum to help people resolve their marital issues? Create stronger bonds, etc?

I've already chosen my H. I've cut all contact the the other guy. 
I am in the middle of trying to find the connection I need with the man I'm with. So discussing the guy I've chosen to stop thinking about and cut out of my life seems counter-intuitive to my forward motion.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

turnera said:


> His Needs Her Needs.




I started reading this book early on and it really bothered me how the authors idea was that one never truly gets over an affair. I mean he/she never would get over the OM/W
At the time I was trying so hard to shut my mind off to him I felt discouraged.

Perhaps I should pick it up again now that I'm in a later phase.
Can you advise why specifically you recommend this book and what you see that would be helpful for my situation?


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

tigerlily99 said:


> ...it really bothered me how the authors idea was that one never truly gets over an affair.



Disagree with the authors. Humans are capable of great things. If we can get ourselves into an affair, we can get ourselves out of it and be truly over it. I read about one wayward wife who hated her actions so much, she reported the affair to her employer and got both herself and the OM fired. Hantei's wife over at SI says she hates her OM.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

manfromlamancha said:


> Getting a man who is not externally emotional but highly emotional internally to change is a huge task but I am sure it can be done. Usually it takes something highly traumatic to shock him into action but I guess the fear that he might lose you to his friend probably did that. So keep at it and I am sure you will succeed. You seem to be more than half the way there by virtue of you knowing that it is something that needs to be addressed and you have articulated what needs to be addressed well in your last post.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck!



This is SO true about my H thank you for putting it into words. I would love more insight from you or anyone here who understands this type of man and tips on how to navigate through this phase with him.

This phase being revamping our marriage and forging a new relationship in which we are both safe to be honest and direct with each other without fear of everything blowing up all the time. 

More on that in my next post about our counseling session.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Tigerlilly,

I haven't read your entire thread, but I'm familiar with infidelity and reconciliation. Although I'm only two and a half years into reconciliation I have done what you and your husband are trying to do. Reconciliation is very difficult, that's on a good day, and very painful, that's each and every day. The reasons are obvious, your marriage suddenly exploded, parts of you and your husband died, and your marriage died. That's so much for any human to work through, and it takes time. 

Some of the most difficult work is self reflection, you both now see each other differently. Concerns arise if you will both still love and be in love with each other after the changes. Are the both of you strong enough to tear down the remnants of the marriage and begin to build new? In a matter of a few hours everything you had was blown up, everything destroyed, and deception that cut to the bone. Yeah, you both have some hard times ahead, you both need to find yourselves, as what you thought you once were you aren't anymore. 

Your husband seems to be feeling much of what I thought, it's not pretty. I was humiliated beyond belief, I was destroyed, and I thought I could handle my wife working with OM. I was wrong, I wasn't strong enough, and your husband believed he could with your OM and be friends. He was wrong and finds himself weaker then he thought also. That's very hard to accept as a man, very hard to self reflect and find yourself weaker then you thought. Since you have basically had only twenty four weeks of therapy, you are moving far slower then I. You will need MC and individual therapy for you both. In three years you've roughly had six months of therapy, so I understand how you have become stuck. 

You are doing things right in my opinion though, you are moving slowly and hopefully discussing what you find under each rock through fully. That is what you have to do, communicate, but your communication has to be effective at the same time. Communication must stop when one becomes enraged or overwhelmed. Again, effective communication. My wife and I agreed to talk for about forty five minutes on designated nights, in other words you make a schedule until you can communicate effectively. It's hard but it can be done. It takes work and discipline from you both. 

You both have to accept that the affair has happened. I think your husband is struggling here, as he thought you would fall for physical attractiveness rather then emotionally. While the physical hurts, the emotional is a deeper connection for women usually. I can tell you I was destroyed that my wife was far more emotionally deeper then I could have imagined. My wife's affair was also physical, so I had to contend with both the EA/PA. As if it couldn't get worse it did, I then discovered the OM is the biological father of our twin boys. I am reconciling, and not one day has been easy. 

Commitment was brought up earlier, and you said you are committed, look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are. One tiny ounce of doubt will destroy your reconciliation. Are you remorseful? Why were you about to tell your husband? I want to rule out you were going to tell him before your friend. True remorse is feeling your husbands pain, do you? Although you have said this wasn't physical, I would still ask questions. So it is my hope you don't take offense to what I'm going to ask you here. Did you two go out alone for meals? Ever hold hands, even if only for a moment? Did you ever just kiss the OM? Did your times out alone, if you had any, feel as though it were a date? I ask this to be absolutely sure, to remove any doubts I may have because I am jaded, which is no fault of your own. 

I hope you make it through, I hope you rebuild your marriage, I hope you and your husband find peace and happiness. If you have any questions feel free to ask, you can do so in this thread or pm, whichever you prefer. God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Quote: I actually talked to my H about this a little bit yesterday. H reminded me that I told him (in response to him asking) that if he would've made a move I would have responded. 
H said, So the only reason it wasn't a full-blown affair is because OM never initiated and/or an opportunity never presented itself.

You are lucky I believe because your husband stayed. If my wife had told me this, she would have been packing her bags and gone. Could we have fixed things, maybe, but it would not have been from the same house. She would have to prove she actually was in love with me, if not, it would be over. I just don't believe a spouse can do something like this and be in love with the one they betray. Male or female, it doesn't matter. 

Plus the fact it took almost a year for you to give up the POSOM. There is your husband watching you that entire time mourning the lose of your AP. How he stayed is beyond me. 

You might have chosen to be with your husband but it just don't sound like you are in love with him.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> My reason for this thread is to discuss the difficulty of true reconciliation.


The difficulties are many. In your case I will attempt to guess based on some of your posts.

1	Your husband had great faith in your loyalty, maybe unrealistic faith.

2	You gave your heart and emotions to another married man and shut down and rejected your husband for a period of time.

3	Your husband is down on himself because he feels that he should have done more to prevent the EA

4	Your husband’s ability to process and express his emotions do not match your need for his emotions

5	Your husband is afraid of his emotions and your emotions.

6	You want your husband to balance his emotions with being a strong man

7	You both have a fear that your easy going love and happiness will not return

The above seem to be the difficulties that you both face in your reconciliation.

The fact that your husband was so wrong in his great faith in your loyalty has shaken his confidence in his ability to assess a very important situation in his life. He probably beats himself up over the fact that he was so wrong in his assessment and his actions prior to the EA. This has damaged his self-esteem and is a major obstacle in reconciliation.

Your husband has many years of living with not going deep into his emotions and this may also be his innate personality. This will be very hard for him to overcome and he may never overcome to the degree that you want.

Your fear that your easy going love and happiness will not return is the natural result of the damage done by betrayal.

My opinion about your situation is that your husband will have to realize that his great faith in your loyalty was unrealistic and he needs to adjust to that fact. Your husband can adjust to the fact that his trust in you will not be 100% and that he can obtain a level of trust that can be enough for having a good marriage. Also your husband will need to do actions that will bring his self-esteem higher.

Your husband needs to keep striving to use his emotions to help the reconciliation but you may have to settle for his level of ability to process and express his emotions because it may not match your level.

Your easy going love and happiness can return to a higher and acceptable level with more time IMO.

You and your husband need to strive diligently to restore the trust, self-esteem, and emotional levels that you desire but must also prepare yourself if they do not return to 100%. I do not want to depress you but I am telling you what I feel is the truth.

What I also feel is the truth is that you have done some damage that may never be completely healed (100% trust) but you can also get to a higher level in other areas that you had never achieved prior to the EA. You do not need to have 100% trusts in order to have a good marriage. I have 90-95% trust in my wife and we have a good marriage.

However, you and your husband may be able to do even better than we have because your betrayal was not as damaging as our was. I am not sugar coating what you did but my wife went a lot further than you did. Frankly, if you and your husband get the right information and take the right actions for several more years, I think you have a very good chance at having a successful R. Our R is now over 25 years and we have a good life. I know that 3.5 years seems like a very long time but in R with betrayal it can take 10-20 years to get to maximum success in R. IMO

Finally, I think with your situation, you two have a very good chance of having a successful R and a good marriage.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ABHale said:


> Quote: I actually talked to my H about this a little bit yesterday. H reminded me that I told him (in response to him asking) that if he would've made a move I would have responded.
> H said, So the only reason it wasn't a full-blown affair is because OM never initiated and/or an opportunity never presented itself.
> 
> You are lucky I believe because your husband stayed. If my wife had told me this, she would have been packing her bags and gone. Could we have fixed things, maybe, but it would not have been from the same house. She would have to prove she actually was in love with me, if not, it would be over. I just don't believe a spouse can do something like this and be in love with the one they betray. Male or female, it doesn't matter.
> ...


Really? I can almost see the love for her husband in Tigerlilly's posts. 

Tigerlilly might have given in to her OM. But! She might have realised that she was getting in too deep and ended it then.

And saying: "Well, in similar circumstances my husband/wifew did such-and-such is interesting but not necessarily relevant as Tigerlilly is herself and not them. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

tigerlily99 said:


> I mean details about my relationship with another guy that is not my H seem like they defeat the purpose of this forum? Isn't this forum to help people resolve their marital issues? Create stronger bonds, etc?
> 
> I've already chosen my H. I've cut all contact the the other guy.
> I am in the middle of trying to find the connection I need with the man I'm with. So discussing the guy I've chosen to stop thinking about and cut out of my life seems counter-intuitive to my forward motion.


It can be helpful for figuring out what needs he was meeting that your H was not. If your H knows those needs, he can, ideally, start meeting them.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Doing R is for sure, a challenge. Honestly, I rarely think about the AP/A, etc. I'm almost done with anti-depression/mood medication in that I forget to take them. 

I did have a minor break down a week ago while driving alone. Was jamming to music on the radio - and BAM! I was hurting and in tears, the whole thing lasted about 20~30 seconds. On the pain level, it was a 5 out of 100 with no real duration. A full blown attack from months ago have lasted hours. With the meds, they'd lower the pain and the time to about 20~30 minutes.

I've had some nightmares>Panic attacks - nothing to do with the A or AP. But sexual that is triggering.

I want US to succeed.
I hope we are successful. She says the same.
But I can't put us at 100% - never.

(3 months of fake R, and so far 3 months of likely a real R)
We've been going to MC, generally good. We have our bad days. But far more GOOD ones.

The biggest difference was her admitting that the A was on HER. Admitting it was an A to me and others was a major step.
We don't call each other names or scream, and we have TALKED after having bad-moments to sort our WHY and how to do better. I support her AA meetings, which is thrilling to both her and myself. She's not been drunk 5 months. She's surprised us both on how well she's doing. (She used to be drunk EVERY DAY during the A)

Wayward has moved back almost 2 months ago. Our toddler is doing pretty good, but obviously affected by the breakup. This is something my Wayward sees, is that children are HURT by affairs and breakups. She didn't think he would be when this drama exploded.

I'll feel better and know more as each year goes by. Talking and sharing our feelings has been good for us.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

tigerlily99 said:


> I call it an EA because of how **I** felt.
> 
> I actually talked to my H about this a little bit yesterday. H reminded me that I told him (in response to him asking) that if he would've made a move I would have responded.
> H said, So the only reason it wasn't a full-blown affair is because OM never initiated and/or an opportunity never presented itself.
> ...


I could not understand if you actually fancied the OM and if he fancied you. Understanding why you fancied the OM could help your husband understand (as JLD said) what husband could do to make you fancy him again.

I had missed this phrase but in your opening post you said: "I fell hard for him because …." I didn't realise you had fallen hard for him.

You also implied that he didn't reciprocate but for some reason did have an inappropriate number of calls with you - in my book this was reciprocation.

You also now said that if he had made a move you would have reciprocated and effectively you would have been in a Physical Affair with this guy. I am not sure why he didn't make a move but you were clearly laying out the welcome mat.

Now … two things leapt out at me from this.

You were not attracted to your husband because he wasn't doing something/fulfilling some need that you wanted done/filled.

The OM clearly was. Now this is going to be blunt so excuse me - you were ready to fvck him for whatever he was doing for you!

If your hubby knows this, and is emotionally fragile internally as you say, its going to take a mammoth effort to get him to where you would like him to be. You see in his mind YOU HAVE CHEATED! And this is what he is addressing. And while you didn't take it to the next step, you were there mentally and emotionally. So he feels betrayed too. The good news is that there was no lying from you, no withholding information, no inappropriate talk or actions etc (which is why most are unable to understand calling it an EA).

Now you have openly said how you felt and excuse my blunt description of it, it makes it easier to understand what he is going through. Couple that with your pretty detailed explanation of what you want from your husband, I think you both have a good chance of getting there.

See he understands what you want (and wanted all along) and he realises he wasn't delivering (because he was oblivious to it). He also understands what you were about to do because of it - this is what I meant by shocked him into action.

From your side while working on this (i.e. to get your husband and marriage to where you want) you need to also understand that stepping out of the marriage is not the right thing to do and you need to be truly remorseful for that. This is because even if he was not delivering, you need to understand that you have it within you to cheat! And that needs to be fixed too. Maybe before you fix the rest of the marriage.

Now I am not saying that you are nor remorseful or that you are not working on fixing you. You clearly are by your statements - all I am saying is make sure your husband knows that you are truly remorseful for not only emotionally cheating but being able/ready to take it to the physical stage and it was only because the OM did not do more that it didn't happen. He needs his ego built up again because this might have broken it.

Anyway I hope that explains why I kept digging to really understand what you did and why you called it an affair.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

This, to me, is why I consider EAs more damaging than PAs. 

Tiger lily, I am not dogging you in this post so please don't take it that way, I'm just explaining my feelings. 

When we get married, we expect our spouse to forsake all others, though all of us are smart enough to realize that our spouse will find someone of the opposite sex attractive through the years. You can't help that. You see someone on tv or in the streets and without realizing it, you think "wow, they are attractive". Pleasing to the eye. They might bump a little stir in your loins. Most often not, but occasionally you feel a slight stir of sexual attraction. And that stir is out of your control. But it's generally very fleeting and 5 minutes later you don't even remember that fleeting stir of attraction. 

Being emotionally attracted to someone takes work and interaction. It's not a fleeting stir that passes in a few seconds. It's a connection that comes from a lot of time, talking, doing things together, etc., needs being fulfilled etc. And to me, this is how a lot of EAs progress to PAs. You are taking all of the love, affection, time, and transferring it to someone other than your spouse. At some point you'll probably end up having sex because you have feelings for that person.

To me, the betrayal of the HEART is worse than the betrayal of the sex organs. How many of us have had sex with people we don't love? I know I have. Because sex fills a primal need, but not always love. I could go out and have sex with anyone and not feel any different tomorrow. Hell I could have sex with a hundred men (not that I would, that's gross) and not have an emotional connection to any of them. My heart would be the same. 

I'm not saying that makes a strict PA null and void. It's still betrayal, it's still sickening and it's still wrong. But to me, with an EA, you are giving more than your sex organs - that you could share with literally anyone. You are giving your feelings and your heart to someone else. You can't give THAT to just anyone. Once you give that to someone, you are attached. A lot of times for life. I know I still have fleeting fond thoughts of long ago relationships. Not that I am pining for them by any means, but we can't help when we have a fleeting fond memory of things we've shared with people from our past that makes us smile for a second before the thought passes. But I never think of that guy I had sex with on spring break when I was 16 and stupid. I actually had to just force myself to think back to give an example. 

I hope what I'm saying makes sense. I'm just sharing because I know my husbands EA is very hard for me to overcome. I have thoughts that it went physical at some point but no proof. But when I think about it, the emotional part is what bothers me the most. My husband is a human being, he has hormones and a penis that he thinks with. He could have sex with anyone and it not mean a thing. But he chose to give his emotions and HEART to someone else. His penis may have only been inside her once or twice. But the feelings were there much longer and my fear of those feelings never leaving is the hardest thing for me to reconcile in my own heart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

becareful2 said:


> I think this is the case with many, if not most, affairs. The good book says that the heart is deceptive above all things, and desperately wicked. I was stunned when I first read that, but as I got older, and hopefully wiser, I see its truth. It explains the "fog of the affair" and "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence" mentalities where the WS gets in too deep, thinking that it's happiness and it's what they want.
> 
> *Many people today often promote the ideal that if something makes you happy, then you should go for it. I don't necessarily agree with it, because if that happiness is not anchored in integrity and honor, then regret would eventually follow. *
> 
> ...


You articulated that in a very helpful way.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

tigerlily99 said:


> I started reading this book early on and it really bothered me how the authors idea was that one never truly gets over an affair. I mean he/she never would get over the OM/W
> At the time I was trying so hard to shut my mind off to him I felt discouraged.
> 
> Perhaps I should pick it up again now that I'm in a later phase.
> Can you advise why specifically you recommend this book and what you see that would be helpful for my situation?


Many reasons. First, it hits correctly on the psychological background behind people. Nearly all people. Outside of psychopaths, we all have the same psychological makeups - the need for recognition, praise, safety, fun, sex, etc. 

So if you LEARN those needs, you are halfway to fixing things. Always be aware of what makes your spouse tick. Because if you don't, you're just spinning your wheels. Maybe even doing things wrong. 

And if you learn your own Love Busters, you can see where your spouse is being UNHAPPY specifically because of you. Now, if there's something you're doing that's causing unhappiness in your spouse, he/she is MUCH less likely to care to please YOU. And, of course, you want your spouse to be happy. So all in all, it's in your best interests to REALLY know your partner.

Another benefit of the book is helping your spouse understand that stuff so they hopefully choose to do the same thing. 

As far as cheating goes, he's right. We WILL never get past our spouse cheating. How could we? But we could make it a much better marriage so that we choose to focus on the future, not the past. And a cheater, IMO, should never assume the partner will get over it. How could they? You betrayed them - the one person you vowed to protect in this world.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

@drifting on Thank you so much for taking the time to share your insights and your story with me, a total stranger. I am beyond blessed by your response and it is very encouraging and helpful to me in so many ways. I want to respond to a few things and also answer your questions below.



drifting on said:


> ....Your husband seems to be feeling much of what I thought, it's not pretty. I was humiliated beyond belief, I was destroyed, and I thought I could handle my wife working with OM. I was wrong, I wasn't strong enough, and your husband believed he could with your OM and be friends. He was wrong and finds himself weaker than he thought also. That's very hard to accept as a man, very hard to self reflect and find yourself weaker then you thought. Since you have basically had only twenty four weeks of therapy, you are moving far slower then I. You will need MC and individual therapy for you both. In three years you've roughly had six months of therapy, so I understand how you have become stuck.....


This is huge. This is why I wanted to start a thread. There are certain things about the male psyche that I obviously don't just naturally understand. Especially as I transition from just reading his cues and capitulating, into actually digging deeper and asking my H to reveal his heart. 

3 years ago I was so hurt that my H wanted to stay friends with OM. I wanted H to be angry with him. That time was very dark for me. I felt like the naughty child put in the corner while H & OM hung out and discussed me. It SUCKED! 
H even went to OM and OMW's house to hang out one night and that REALLY hurt because I used to be a part of that group and now I was an outsider.
I was glad when H finally started admitting that he was angry at OM whenever he had to interact with him at work. 

What you are saying helps me understand that ugly time a little better: I see that H was embarrassed and wanted to be strong and act like it was all my issue and that things hadn't changed for him & his friend. He also wanted to believe that OM was innocent in his interactions with me. Which hurt all the more because we were both doing the same things but only I was getting 'consequences' for it. 
At that time we were all a little clueless though. We thought that I could eventually get over my 'little crush' and we could resume the couple friendship at a later date. Actually we would've attempted it if OMw had put her foot down and said NO! (I completely respect her for that btw)
Oy...crazy painful memories.



drifting on said:


> You are doing things right in my opinion though, you are moving slowly and hopefully discussing what you find under each rock thoroughly. That is what you have to do, communicate, but your communication has to be effective at the same time. Communication must stop when one becomes enraged or overwhelmed. Again, effective communication. My wife and I agreed to talk for about forty five minutes on designated nights, in other words you make a schedule until you can communicate effectively. It's hard but it can be done. It takes work and discipline from you both.


THIS!!!
I do wish I/we could've gotten a hold of this little nugget much earlier. We have pulverized each other emotionally by trying SO incredibly hard to talk through things even when it was getting heated and emotional. Plus the whole effective communication thing. Ugh, my heart hurts from the zillions of times in the last 3 years that we have just completely and totally missed the thing that the other is trying to say. Right now we are choosing to only discuss heated issues WITH our counselor present. 



drifting on said:


> You both have to accept that the affair has happened. I think your husband is struggling here, as he thought you would fall for physical attractiveness rather then emotionally. While the physical hurts, the emotional is a deeper connection for women usually. I can tell you I was destroyed that my wife was far more emotionally deeper then I could have imagined. My wife's affair was also physical, so I had to contend with both the EA/PA. As if it couldn't get worse it did, I then discovered the OM is the biological father of our twin boys. I am reconciling, and not one day has been easy.


I am in awe of your decision to reconcile given all of this. I am truly amazed. If it had gone physical in my case...even just a kiss, my H would've left me. He has made that very clear.

You asked these questions and I will answer them:
--Are you remorseful? 
Yes, I feel terrible for the pain that my shift in loyalty caused my H. I truly wish the ‘wake up’ could’ve come about any other way. 

--Why were you about to tell your husband? 
I was going to tell him because I realized I needed his help and I couldn’t handle cutting off the relationship by myself. I had a plan, that I was going to ask him to talk to OM and say that HE was uncomfortable with the amount of time we were chatting and ask him to stop chatting with me without H there. The reason I made this plan was because I didn’t want OM to know how I felt and if I asked him to stop contacting me I knew it would tell him something. I thought that if H intervened for me we could just deal with my issues between the two of us without alerting OM to my inner feelings and becoming a big issue.
I wanted to tell OM how I felt but I had this inner mantra that said, ‘Do not tell another man something about myself that H doesn’t know.’ I knew this would humiliate my H and I truly didn’t want to do that. 
But then things came out that very weekend in a different way, H's suspicions became alerted and he decided to read our chats on FB and it all came out before I told him.

--True remorse is feeling your husband’s pain, do you? 
I try to. I ask him to tell me. I try to hear his heart. It’s rare that he lets me see his pain. TAM helped me with that a lot. I felt for a long time that what I had done was so minimal that I couldn’t understand why he was so hurt and lost so much confidence. TAM made me cry many times over what I had done to him as I read the stories of others situations, although much more involved, it was still the same betrayal, humiliation and pain for my H as it was for the ones I read about.

--Did you two go out alone for meals? 
No. We hung out as a threesome a lot though.

--Ever hold hands, even if only for a moment? 
No.

--Did you ever just kiss the OM? 
No.

--Did your times out alone, if you had any, feel as though it were a date? 
Well we were not alone, but when I would meet with H & OM sometimes or even all 4 of us it felt like a date to me. /:




drifting on said:


> I hope you make it through, I hope you rebuild your marriage, I hope you and your husband find peace and happiness. If you have any questions feel free to ask, you can do so in this thread or pm, whichever you prefer. God bless.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really, really appreciate your hope for us.  It’s very encouraging.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

turnera said:


> Many reasons. First, it hits correctly on the psychological background behind people. Nearly all people. Outside of psychopaths, we all have the same psychological makeups - the need for recognition, praise, safety, fun, sex, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> So if you LEARN those needs, you are halfway to fixing things. Always be aware of what makes your spouse tick. Because if you don't, you're just spinning your wheels. Maybe even doing things wrong....


Re: His Needs Her Needs
Thank you @turnera I will open it up again with those things in mind.

And not to be argumentative but yes I DO realize our marriage will never be the same after this and in a lot of ways I don't want it to be. 
I don't expect my H to ever forget or trust me blindly like he once did.

The part that I was discouraged about was that I thought he was saying I would always pine for OM in some way and always wonder 'what if' or fantasize about what might've happened. (Or in some cases what did happen)

But I'm not saying that I can't filter a book though, just clarifying. So I will revisit it.

Thank you.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

ABHale said:


> You are lucky I believe because your husband stayed. If my wife had told me this, she would have been packing her bags and gone. Could we have fixed things, maybe, but it would not have been from the same house. She would have to prove she actually was in love with me, if not, it would be over. I just don't believe a spouse can do something like this and be in love with the one they betray. Male or female, it doesn't matter.
> 
> Plus the fact it took almost a year for you to give up the POSOM. There is your husband watching you that entire time mourning the lose of your AP. How he stayed is beyond me.
> 
> You might have chosen to be with your husband but it just don't sound like you are in love with him.


I am lucky! I am very lucky. I completely expected my H to leave me or to throw me out.
He has shown above and beyond his great love and loyalty to me. 
You’re right I was no longer ‘in love’ with my H at that time.
I had jumped the tracks and my heart was with another man.
My H knows that I am a very emotionally deep person so he did realize how serious this was even though there was no PA. 
Thankfully OM did NOT know that and he thought that since there was nothing physical that it was innocent. 
At the time I wished that my H would’ve kicked me out because I felt so ashamed and it was VERY difficult to try and heal, recover AND find my true self in the house with the man I had betrayed. I came across something at that point, I think it was in Boundaries in Marriage or some book like that. It said that when a woman leaves the marriage to ‘find herself’ it’s useless because it’s only within a relationship that we can truly know that we are being honest. We can totally fool ourselves if we have no conflict. 
So I chose to throw myself into ‘finding the real me’ within our difficult and stilted relationship.
I knew if I left to heal it would send the message that I was leaving my H, the man.
But if I stayed he would know I was still trying.

You say it was terrible for him to watch me mourn the OM. I don’t know if he fully realized that’s what I was doing and I didn’t flaunt it in his face. Also the fact that he didn’t even realize that my heart had disengaged about 2 years prior says that he wasn’t very ‘in tune’ with me (I take the blame for that, because I was afraid to share myself with him) but even so it was true.

It’s true I chose to stay with my H even though I didn’t feel ‘in love’ and in my understanding of love, that IS love. Choosing. I began to understand that I had ‘chosen’ OM through a serious of a thousand little compromises that became what felt like ‘love’ so I determined that I could make those thousand little choices again and love would revive for my H. 

I didn’t tell H these things, I just chose to keep choosing him and un-choosing OM however many times a day or week I had to.

I DO feel love for H again now. I allowed my emotions to ‘float’ on what was familiar at first, our history, our habits, our love life. And bit by bit the things that made me fall in love with him in the first place began to come back into view. 

It was a gamble, but love always is. At least H and I are both betting on each other.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

Latest update:
H and I went to the counselor on Thursday night.
I had really been looking forward to connecting and having a chance to talk deeply, which I had been sort of avoiding as per what we had decided last counseling appt.

The first appointment had been so encouraging that I was subconsciously expecting the same kind of ‘shot in the arm’ that it had been.

The counselor ended up bringing up, unbeknownst to her, the last ‘angry’ issue that happened and pinpointing that it had been a turning point (negatively speaking) in our trajectory of healing and R.
What’s funny is **I**didn’t bring it up, he did (as per her asking)

So the fact that my H showed that he can indeed still be angry and unreasonable right after our amazing family vacation when I thought all was well and we were doing great...came to the forefront.
The reason for my fear that we had come this far and yet in so many ways we're now back to ‘square one’ came out on the table. 
I ended up crying which I hate when I do.
And she (counselor) was all sweet and accommodating but I feel like a dummy when I am weak and crying. 

His version of the ‘story’ was so completely different than how I experienced it (of course). I was aghast. I actually hid my face because it was tattle-taling on how I felt, concerning his version of the story and mine.

Which brings me to the stupid things that made some people in the past on this forum think I was making excuses for my EA but in actuality it DID cause a lot of disconnect BEFORE I chose to connect with OM. I don’t blame these events on H for MY selfish and stupid choices but I do recognize that they played a part in why I was feeling so desperate.

She (the MC) said that if I wanted H to leave the room so I could tell my version it was ok. But I didn’t want that. I’m not that weak.

So I told her how his anger had really scared me and how I felt powerless and alone. And I had to leave the hosue because he was being so unreasonable. It pained me to leave him that way but I had my 13-y-o daughter to think of as well. And I just had to get out of there once he became unreasonable and started yelling at me and using the F-word. Which I admit is another weakness of mine, as in I get scared and want to run if he is using language like that. (in my family no one ever cussed, so it still feels really scary when my H used bad language during a fight.)

We, H and I had already worked out the details concerning this big blow up. He thought I wanted him to clean the computer room, I thought he was mad at me for my unfinished project in his computer room. But neither of us really wanted to move the filing cabinet that day, (one of those giant 6 drawer metal cabinets that was chock full of papers) that day and we were both doing it for the other. (thinking the other wanted us to.)
WE do that kind of thing a lot. So I already realize that I need to be much more direct and honest about how I feel ( I didn’t feel comfortable helping my hubby lug a 200+lb filing cabinet up the stairs when the wheels on the dolly are flat and he just wants to ‘get’er done’ before his parents arrive.) I should’ve just said that. 

He has the brawn to press through a heavy job like that, but I don’t and I didn’t feel safe. 
But I didn’t say that. Instead I tried to make appeals for ways to feel more safe, like pumping up the tires on the dolly….or getting a tie down to at least strap the cabinet to the dolly so it wouldn’t fall off. My suggestions were met with resistance and even irritation that I would try to nit-pick at how he was doing a job. 
He ended up getting mad at me and yelling and using the Fword and I ended up ‘abandoning’ him on the stairs with the dolly one step up.

As I drove away his “F** you” trailing behind me I could hear the cabinet hitting the walls as he...what, I didn’t know, was trying to move it alone? Or angrily throwing it down the stairs? 
I didn’t want to subject myself to whatever was happening when I don’t have the physical strength to do anything to help or stand up for myself if he was out of control. (apparently he wasn’t, but I didn’t know, I left.)

As my daughter and I drove away, I thought, he must be hungry. Sometimes he is very unreasonable when he is hungry. I drove to Subway and got his favorite sandwich with all the fixin’s hoping that would assuage his anger when I got back.

So about an hour later we arrived back home, sandwiches in tow. 
He was outside, beet red from the effort of trying to move the cabinet up the stairs by himself. 
I told him we had food, and daughter and I proceeded to eat by ourselves.

My son (he’s 20 and 200lbs of muscle) showed up and helped H get the cabinet up the stairs. Apparently H had texted him and asked for help.

H’s comment to the counselor was, when my son came to help it took us 15 minutes to get it up the stairs, I know ‘tigerlily’ could’ve done it if she tried.

UGH!! Wtf??

(Sorry all, this is raw stuff and I’ve had a couple of glasses of wine.)

So anyway, we talk at the MC appt about how this was a big deal for me and she said that it’s important to make me feel safe because regardless of how H perceives it I am triggering from this point on and doubting his emotional safety. 

MC makes a joke about how she’s never read 50 Shades of Grey but one thing she does know is that in S&M you need a safe word. So my homework is to come up with a safe word for when I feel the need to be comforted and assured that everything is ok.

We laugh, haha haha, and H and i go out to dinner.

I Donno, what I was expecting but I felt really raw and vulnerable. I tell H as we are waiting for our appetizers that I feel the need to be comforted. 
He says, ‘Everything is going to be ok’
I am doubtful.
Then he says, ‘we are going to get through this?’ which a total quesiton mark on the end, like, is that the right way to do this?

I’m like, ‘if you are asking me if I agree with you when I am asking for your reassurance than it’s not going to be effective!’

He’s like, ‘I feel like I’m am entering the danger zone here!’

And it just went downhill from there. 

So that was our MC day and date. Pretty anti-climatic and disappointing.

After I thought about it, I realized that H can’t reassure me of anything because he STILL feels like he isn’t enough. He is still trying to make up for the past and be the man he thinks I want, but in all of this trying he is still hiding behind his protective wall so that his real emotions aren’t exposed and he isn’t left vulnerable to pain and ridicule. 

I end up feeling super compassionate for his plight in all of this because I know that **I** am the one who undermined his confidence by falling for his best friend. 
I caused this trauma and this pain in him. 
I am responsible for his insecurity and pain and doubt in his own manhood.

Even though his past anger drove me away, it was never ok to run to the comforts of another man.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

snipe said:


> Your husband tried to move a giant 6 drawer filing cabinet up the stairs which was full of papers, using a dolly with 2 flat tires.
> 
> He never considered inflating the tires on the dolly and removing the papers from the drawers first?
> 
> Your husband is really freaking stupid.


I think the expression is "bullheaded "

And it is probably how he lives his life, too?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

He's only bullheaded when he thinks I'm challenging his manhood. Which I never mean to do.
I want to help him be more confident again.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

Well he isn't stupid.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

tigerlily99 said:


> I am lucky! I am very lucky. I completely expected my H to leave me or to throw me out.
> He has shown above and beyond his great love and loyalty to me.
> You’re right I was no longer ‘in love’ with my H at that time.
> I had jumped the tracks and my heart was with another man.
> ...


I wish you the best of luck TL. I hope the two of you find the happiness you are looking for, and the love.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

snipe said:


> That's sweet but not the least bit helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> She needs good advice not well wishes from random strangers on the internet.



@snipe you are the random stranger. I'm guessing that you probably haven't read all of my posts. Even though my H might've been acting stupid that day, he isn't stupid.

But what is your good advice?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

snipe said:


> That's sweet but not the least bit helpful.
> 
> She needs good advice not well wishes from random strangers on the internet.


And your an azz. What's your point?

It up to OP and her H to work thru this. There is not one thing that can be said here that will change that. The only thing we can offer is our own experience's, support for her, some advice when asked for.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

tigerlily99 said:


> @snipe you are the random stranger. I'm guessing that you probably haven't read all of my posts. Even though my H might've been acting stupid that day, he isn't stupid.
> 
> But what is your good advice?



@tigerlily99 He is not a random stranger and most of us already know who he is and why he is posting here. He already has made ban worthy posts in other threads. Ignore him until a mod removes him.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

snipe said:


> ABHale said:
> 
> 
> > And your an azz.
> ...


Not name calling, just describing your actions.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

tigerlily, what my IC would have told me if we had had that situation (and we have had a TON of them; I'm always expected to help him, though he rarely helps me), is that I should have told him "H, I'll be happy to help you do this, but since I'm a girl, I will have to remove the drawers first. I'm not strong enough to get this upstairs as is. I'm going to take the drawers out, and then I'll carry the drawers up and put them back in."

And then if he refuses, I'm supposed to say, "then I don't feel comfortable helping you, and you'll have to figure out another way to get it upstairs."

See how it was about you and not him and how you would have offered a solution, even been proactive? And then, if he's still an ass and refuses to change his idea, then you remove yourself and let him know why. That part is affirming your value, that you're not slave labor and you value yourself and he should too - but if he won't, you'll just have to value yourself all alone.

Instead, it turned into a who's the bigger victim situation.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

Yeah. I know and understand what the right way to handle it would've been. And I feel your description @turnera actually IS what I did. I made suggestions on ways I thought would've made the job safer for me. (We couldn't remove the drawers, it was one of those old cabinets) When he tried to just muscle through instead I said I don't feel comfortable doing this. He was already committed so he got mad and that's when I left.
But it's not the 'he said, she said' part for me that's the problem, it's the fact that he lost his temper which he used to do a lot more often and it scared me. 

We both realize that we should've handled it differently. And we have gone over the details of how we should've done it. But I guess I've been holding it against him that he got angry and checked out emotionally when I was trying to be level headed.
Our MC said next time to call someone else to start with. 'Tiger lily' won't be helping bring 200lb cabinets up the stairs anymore and you shouldn't be either. 

I was emotional last night. I'm feeling better today. I remembered I'm a big girl. Even though his anger scares me, it actually is a dealbreaker for me if it were to still be a common thing. So I am not powerless or a victim. I have to stop acting like I am when in truth I am in charge of what I choose to allow within my M.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

tigerlily99 said:


> Yeah. I know and understand what the right way to handle it would've been. And I feel your description @turnera actually IS what I did. I made suggestions on ways I thought would've made the job safer for me.


One thing I've learned is that it's all in the delivery. I turned into a scared mousy person so when I've said what you said, those suggestions became more like pleas. Which gives him more power over you. The issue is to state your case AS AN EQUAL and to refuse to help if he won't listen.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

It is like this with my husband too. I darn near go into panic when my husband wants to move a piece of furniture into or out of the house. We have 3 entrances to our home. The front door, the back door onto the deck and the door that goes into our garage. It is almost impossible to move anything through the front door or the door into the garage. The front door opens onto a very small porch, so to finagle something large to fit around a wall just doesn't work. When you come into the house from the garage, you are in a small mudroom off the dining room and again, there is a wall that's hard to navigate around. 

However, the back door out onto the deck has no walls surrounding it, and it's a double french door that opens wide.

My suggestion is always to go through the back door. But that requires more carrying because you then have to step down off the deck, walk about 20 feet to the fence gate and then walk around the house another 50 feet or so. It requires extra carrying, and when you're talking about a couch or something heavy, yeah, it's hard work! But, I also consider myself pretty damn strong for a woman. I can squat 175 pounds, I can deadlift 150. I would much rather carry something heavy further than try to finagle a rectangular object through a square space!

But my suggestion is always met sowith taking it through the front door or garage door. Which then means lots of cussing from J, frustration, he'll yell at me when I lose my grip or have to set it down or get angry that there's now a rub spot on the door or the couch has ripped. Then I end up hurt that he's yelled, angry because he's such a jerk when he's frustrated, etc. 

So I have begun telling him from the start, "I will help you as long as we go through the French doors. If we do not, you will have to find a way to move it yourself." In the past, I have been afraid to be that blunt, but to my surprise, the ONLY thing that happened was him walking back to the french doors, opening them both and saying "you ready?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## billbird2111 (Feb 14, 2016)

tigerlily99 said:


> My H and I are about to celebrate our 23rd wedding anniversary, we have two grown sons that left home within the past 3years, and one early teen daughter still at home.
> 
> We have been on the reconciliation road for a little under 3-1/2 years now. We have both been feeling so weary and discouraged lately. A lot of our fights and misunderstandings feel like broken records that are carving deep painful grooves into our souls. The discouragement is not from the ongoing work of re-engaging our hearts, even though that can be frustrating, we are not above working hard for a valuable relationship. The discouragement and near-hopelessness comes from the fear that we will never have the easy-going love that we once had. That we have both put in an incredible amount of work and soul-searching and effort, yet the ease of our mutual love and happiness still remains elusively out of reach.
> 
> ...


At least you went back with your husband and are making an effort to work it out. You deserve credit for doing this.

My wife just cheated on me with multiple men and left. The more I find out, the more it sickens me. She just started screwing anyone who showed interest.

You could have done that. Which is far, far worse.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

I'm so sorry for your pain @billbird2111 that is simply tragic.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

@LosingHim & @turnera I appreciate you sharing your personal stories. It makes me see how truly it has been my own timidity and sense of not having value in my own eyes that have really created a lot of this feeling of alone-ness and powerlessness.

It was the EA that was my wake-up to the fact that my feelings DO matter. In fact my feelings alone without anyone else confirming or agreeing with them carry weight. My feelings even left unknown or un-acknowledged can cause pain for me and in the case of the EA, also for others.

It was all based on MY feelings.

Clearly I am still learning about this. I hate bothering my H with my feelings. He has always had issues with emotion and I picked up on that early on and just made everything as easy as possible for him in that area by not burdening him with my feelings. (I was already conditioned to do that from my upbringing so I just thought that was how you do it!)

I've come a long way....and I still have a long way to go apparently.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Tigerlilly 

Thank you for answering my questions, it helps to know more so as I share information it should hopefully be more helpful. After your husband discovered the affair he still conversed with OM and his wife. He continued to work with OM, and this he was angry about. I can understand partly why he was like this. First, at work he would be upset, he doesn't want OM to be successful. By this I mean, if they worked together your husband will see any accolades given to OM. This would make him feel inferior, but if he failed, or if your husband received accolades, he would be superior. Your husbands self esteem would have been given either a shot of confidence or destroyed. 

Second, your husband put on a facade to OM that his marriage would be fine even though OM tried to take you away, so to speak. Your husband probably put up a false front that showed you were both still happy and that his advances were unsuccessful. I'm guessing on this really but I imagine I'm close as to why your husband did this. I really think your husband was truly mad with your OM, but he wanted to show OM that he was confident and that you could not be taken away. 

As for communication, you both need to be very clear with your words. Clear enough that you aren't afraid of angering each other. Support from your husband will come as he learns to trust you again. It doesn't come immediately and even though you are three years out you don't have near enough therapy. I'm not saying you can't do this without outside help (therapy), but it would be very difficult. It's even more difficult when the self esteem you are both exhibiting is so low. Again, this isn't a negative towards either of you, but it is reality. 

My wife thought she should be more supportive of what I did around the house. I changed out our kitchen faucet and my wife was saying what a good job I had done to the boys. Prior to this she would say thank you, good job. But now it was over the top and laced with sweetness I nearly got a cavity. In other words it felt fake, it made me feel humiliated. So even as she tried to be supportive it would backfire. I understand her reasons, truly I do, but it also needs to be genuine. We have since discussed this and she now supports me in a way I appreciate. Your husband supporting you at dinner was an attempt, an attempt with unclear information as you both didn't communicate effectively. 

With the amount of therapy you have had I would set time aside each week to discuss the affair. Your husband will have walls and with time and work they will come down. It's a gradual tear down, one that is painstakingly slow, so I hope you have patience. It is incredibly hard to hand over your heart to someone who has betrayed you in a way you never thought possible. You also have to shrivel the marriage problems, what happened before the affair is not worked on, not at this point in time. You work on the affair and the affair only. It is called forgiveness, that's what you work on first. Has your husband said he has forgiven you? If he has, has he ever brought up the affair in arguments? If he has, the chances of him forgiving you is slim. Once he has forgiven you the affair needs to be unspoken of. Not forgotten, but not used against you. My wife and I argue, but I don't bring up the affair unless we are speaking of that time period, which is seldom. 

You are at square one, and that probably hurts to hear. With your limited time for counseling, I think you should do three appointments weekly, then go to monthly, and hopefully that will carry you to the end of the year. At this point you now get another eight sessions in January. If you go monthly it will keep you in therapy longer, hopefully long enough to give you the best chance at repairing your marriage. 

As hard as this is to say, I was told by our MC that you have to give the WS time to grieve the loss of their relationship. I thought she was crazy and I argued angrily and very passionately. I stood and screamed at both my wife and therapist. How do I watch her grieve for a relationship that never should have been??!! But you do, my therapist was correct as wrong as it sounds. It's also wrong to grieve for a marriage that died, because it never should have in this way. But of course you do have to grieve for your old marriage, so you can replace it with a new marriage. You both may find that you struggle with this, it truly is a struggle believe me. 

There is so much more to say and I have run out of time. I will check back to see if I have anything useful to offer. Best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

@Mr Blunt I'm sorry it's taken me a while to 
specifically respond to you.
I loved the things you shared and an amazed at your assessment. I love how you broke it all down and id like to respond to your suggestions and insights.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write to me.



Mr Blunt said:


> The difficulties are many. In your case I will attempt to guess based on some of your posts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love these points you made!






Mr Blunt said:


> The fact that your husband was so wrong in his great faith in your loyalty has shaken his confidence in his ability to assess a very important situation in his life. He probably beats himself up over the fact that he was so wrong in his assessment and his actions prior to the EA. This has damaged his self-esteem and is a major obstacle in reconciliation.


Self esteem is a huge problem in our R. I hate the dichotomy within me of wanting him to be strong and decisive and man-like...yet I pulled the rug out from under him with my wayward emotions. I hate that as I am becoming strong and able to stand on my own two feet without always leaning on him (I did this inordinately during our first 20yrs) it seems to intimidate him and make him feel even less steady. Yet if I don't become whole and strong and speak up for myself then I am in danger of becoming submerged and lonely again.
So yes, in short this IS a major obstacle in our R.

You have very succinctly described something my H has not been able to help me understand and that is that his mistaken assessment of the situation is a great source of embarrassment and shame for him. He totally beats himself up over it!




Mr Blunt said:


> Your husband has many years of living with not going deep into his emotions and this may also be his innate personality. This will be very hard for him to overcome and he may never overcome to the degree that you want....
> 
> ....Your husband needs to keep striving to use his emotions to help the reconciliation but you may have to settle for his level of ability to process and express his emotions because it may not match your level.[/


I know. And I have grappled with that reality. I have come to the conclusion that I will be diligent to have conversations with my safe people (close friends, TAM and trusted family members) and process with them about deeper issues within my M so that the times H and I do talk it can be more concise and well formed for him. I hope that doesn't sound patronizing...but I just understand that he can only take so much at a time and I am a major verbal/outside processor. He is an internal processor. I love deep processing with people, he prefers to keep things light if at all possible. Although he is willing to go deep if he's in the mood. I used to just try to guess or read his cues about whether it was safe to share vulnerably with him and then be devastated if he wasn't emotionally available to me(because usually I had been saving a bunch of stuff up to share with him when the time we right)
Of course that scared him even more because I hadn't told him along the way that I was waiting for a time to chat. (I tried to avoid the dreaded, "honey can we talk?" line.) So I always felt and sometimes still feel between a rock and a hard place. 
At least now he KNOWS how important talking is to me and staying connects is a high priority to him. But being a very intuitive person I can always tell when he'd rather be doing anything else....or at least I think I can. 





Mr Blunt said:


> Your fear that your easy going love and happiness will not return is the natural result of the damage done by betrayal.
> 
> 
> 
> My opinion about your situation is that your husband will have to realize that his great faith in your loyalty was unrealistic and he needs to adjust to that fact. Your husband can adjust to the fact that his trust in you will not be 100% and that he can obtain a level of trust that can be enough for having a good marriage. Also your husband will need to do actions that will bring his self-esteem higher.





Strangely, I would actually prefer his trust in me to not return to what it was. That may seem odd but his trust was so complete and so blind that I often felt unprotected and like I was an extension of him rather than a cherished, valuable, wife who needed him to notice and be a little more possessive. (Typically a woman would probably not say this, but I really wanted it.)
He was actually so ashamed to feel any jealously as if jealousy = weakness? Or maybe complete distrust instead of mild concern? There was only black or white.





Mr Blunt said:


> Your easy going love and happiness can return to a higher and acceptable level with more time IMO.
> 
> You and your husband need to strive diligently to restore the trust, self-esteem, and emotional levels that you desire but must also prepare yourself if they do not return to 100%. I do not want to depress you but I am telling you what I feel is the truth.
> 
> ...


It's good to know from someone who has gone before me that trust doesn't need to be 100% to still have a good M. I wonder how my H feels about this. I will have to ask him.





Mr Blunt said:


> However, you and your husband may be able to do even better than we have because your betrayal was not as damaging as our was. I am not sugar coating what you did but my wife went a lot further than you did. Frankly, if you and your husband get the right information and take the right actions for several more years, I think you have a very good chance at having a successful R. Our R is now over 25 years and we have a good life. I know that 3.5 years seems like a very long time but in R with betrayal it can take 10-20 years to get to maximum success in R. IMO
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, I think with your situation, you two have a very good chance of having a successful R and a good marriage.



I appreciate the seasoned vote of confidence. Thank you for sharing some of your hard won wisdom with me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tiger,
There is a very popular book called: men are from Mars women are from Venus.

The entire book focuses on the issue in your post below.

The wife seeks connection, the husband correction. 

When you feel bad - HE feels bad. When you feel anxious - HE - feels anxious. 

His behavior isn't driven by logic - it's driven by - synchronization. 

Once he accepts that your bad feelings aren't his fault - he can - comfort you and connect with you WHILE YOU ARE FEELING BAD. 

I used to do exactly what he does. 







tigerlily99 said:


> In the past my H communicated with me by using facts and information without actually listening to my heart and connecting with me.
> 
> He is learning to listen and ask questions without assuming he knows exactly how I feel.
> 
> ...


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

@drifting on 

Thanks for sharing that. Hope it helps tigerlily99 and her husband. Opening up is harder for some people than others. It took me a short while to do that, as I've never been medicated or talk to a therapist in MY LIFE until infidelity.

We're reading books together and talk about our actions. Yeah, we were both afraid ourselves - would this action be "fake" - so we talked about it and that we would not force ourselves.

We've been going to CC for 3 months on a weekly basis. We're both doing quite good. First 4 meetings were crap, but a start. It's been helpful so far, for us. We're almost done talking about the affair a lot, tying up loose ends. I'm figuring about 2~3 more sessions of infidelity as we work on our emotions, timeline, details, etc.

We talk about the affair once a week or so - aside from the therapist. We go into it **WITHOUT** attacking each other remind each other that the info we share is NOT to hurt the other person, but for clarity. With such talks - she opens up to things I didn't know or had guessed about. I am slightly upset about somethings I have learned - but feel FAR better that she is honest. I also share with her HOW I feel about things. We'll likely go bi-weekly after 4 more sessions. Then go monthly when we feel like. But we're open to ALWAYS going if one of us feels the needs and to do yearly "check ups".

We do communicate FAR better now, than we have had in the past 3 years or so. Are we saved? Do I have 100% trust in her? No, and she knows it. 

I do highly recommend CC/MC - going with just books or trying to talk without a bit outside help is hard. We did try to have a friend be a moderator of sorts, when this mess started. He was helpful, but still - he wasn't a professional.

Being honest with ones-self is a bit of an eye opener.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

TaDor said:


> @drifting on
> 
> Thanks for sharing that. Hope it helps tigerlily99 and her husband. Opening up is harder for some people than others. It took me a short while to do that, as I've never been medicated or talk to a therapist in MY LIFE until infidelity.
> 
> ...




TaDor

I'm glad you found my post helpful, and I wish you the best in your reconciliation. I too was never medicated or had therapy until infidelity, I guess nothing in my life was as traumatic as infidelity was. Self reflection and being vulnerable were very difficult for me, how do you open up to the one who just destroyed you was all I could think. I have my wife my heart and she ripped it from my chest and stomped on it. I thought my MC was crazy when she asked me to give it to my wife again. But my therapist wasn't crazy, she got me to be vulnerable and to give my heart again. I can't even tell you the strength you must possess to give your heart after being betrayed by infidelity. If reconciliation is your goal then your WS must be willing to give all they have, so does the BS, it's a united effort where you can't place blame, control your anger, and prepare to give yourself fully to heal together. 

I also had a difficult time correcting my wrongs that I brought to the marriage. I was betrayed, it's not my problem to fix was my thought for the first week after d-day, but I couldn't blame my wife for my shortcomings. I needed to own what I did wrong, I had to correct my ways, and I also had to try and heal. Moving forward was difficult, learning to trust after such a betrayal was difficult. Once I decided to reconcile I placed every effort I had to make my process work. I was far too damaged to bring my wife with me, she had to bring herself or this would not work. I've always said not a day was easy, but you can find days that are less painful then others. This gives you hope that you both have committed to give all you have, to make this marriage be a success.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

So we had our third MC appointment (since last year) on Thursday. 
It was an interesting one for me. 
These things are my take away:

1. My husband is easily pleased and I often don't accept that because I feel that surely he is harboring some kind of deep needs or desires that he isn't verbalizing. (Apparently that's only me that does that!)

2. I have a really hard time being 100% honest with how I feel about things with my H. I think that I'm being honest but in actuality I am always trying to soften the 'blow' of how much trouble I think I am to him.

3. My H's biggest fear has been me leaving because I end up finding out that he really isn't enough for me. 

4. My H really genuinely does love me and he doesn't want me to feel trapped or unexpressed or afraid to share myself fully with him. Even if that means he has some adjusting to do to accommodate my changing.

5. I'm a lucky wife.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Then I would suggest that at your next MC, you ask that she help you two start communicating better. Believe it or not, there really is a lot of work involved in this, and it takes a lot of repetition to get it right so that it becomes second nature and so that one or both of you don't just give up communicating that way and go back to your old bad communication styles. Ask her about it.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

tigerlily99 said:


> So we had our third MC appointment (since last year) on Thursday.
> It was an interesting one for me.
> These things are my take away:
> 
> ...


Hopefully, you really know how lucky you are that each day he comes home to you and is willing to work on the marriage. I full agree with you on this, you are a very lucky person. What you should take from this, is that your husband finds you to be a great person and wants in his life. Your husband finds you to be of great value to him, that your qualities as a person are worth more then letting you go and finding someone else. Your husband knows what you are capable of both good and bad, but that your good far outweighs the bad. Indeed you are one very lucky person. You must also remember that your husband gave you the gift of reconciliation, I only hope you realize what a special gift that is. Best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## estes (Aug 7, 2016)

tigerlily99 said:


> 3. My H's biggest fear has been me leaving because I end up finding out that he really isn't enough for me.


Women want to be with a guy who is strong, independent, and protective. It's simply instinct and evolution, nothing more.

To me, your husband comes across as weak with that sort of attitude, and that can be unattractive to many woman and can actually sow the seeds of an affair.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

estes said:


> Women want to be with a guy who is strong, independent, and protective. It's simply instinct and evolution, nothing more.
> 
> To me, your husband comes across as weak with that sort of attitude, and that can be unattractive to many woman and can actually sow the seeds of an affair.




I find this would be true when they first meet, qualities that can attract a female to a male. But in marriage you have your man, you can't be independent in marriage. Slowly this feels as though it's leading to the alpha beta discussion. What happened in this marriage was a breakdown in communication and vulnerability. This lead to OM just listening and wife became astray. Far from the strong and independent argument. 

After the betrayal all of the husbands words and actions may fool you into thinking he is weak, but it is the opposite in my opinion. He is showing strength, willing to reconcile, willing to admit and own his mistakes in the marriage, and showing his wife he believes in her even though she made the wrong choice. He is showing his love and faith that she is a great person to him. Quite an action of strength in my opinion. 

As for the alpha /beta, I believe this to be worthless. Many who think they are alpha are actually the opposite. Most when challenged back down immediately, so I'm not a big fan of the alpha/beta, it's silly in my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

@turnera you are so right. In fact just last night after I posted that, my H and I were enjoying a little cuddling and chatting in bed before sleep. We had had a wonderful weekend together celebrating our anniversary. 
He asked me something about our schedule this week and I misunderstood him so I answered the question wrong, then he asked the same thing again and I answered it the same way again...the third time I realized what he was asking and corrected my response, sort of laughingly.

He was like, how can our communication be so difficult? I mean that made no sense that we did that. 

I was like, I can totally see how we did that.

He says I don't see it at all, and seemed slightly offended.

So we basically start trying to deconstruct what happened, what he said, why I didn't get it, what I was thinking, etc.

That would all be fine if we were just doing it light-heartedly with an appreciation for our very opposite ways of looking at life and even the most minor of interchanges. But H seemed really perturbed and frustrated that he couldn't understand my perspective and that I didn't just know exactly what he was talking about when he asked it.
He's like, do you even connect the conversation to the things we were just talking about?

I felt like he was thinking I'm dumb.
He felt like I was patronizing him(?) or maybe being obtuse on purpose for not understanding his original question.

I really don't know!

But he seems to think that he can learn me and therefore have a little file for how I respond and think and react to each thing.

That's commendable but it's only going to drive him (and me) crazy!
I don't even always know how I will respond to a given thing. Or if there is a lull in a conversation my mind wanders and I don't even realize he is picking up that same conversation we were just having.

Having to work through this seems so minor and even nit-picky to me...but I think we are going to have to open this up in order to forge a new way of looking at it so he and I don't get so bogged down in just a minor, 'oh you were saying that? I thought you meant this.'


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Learning not to take every last thing personally could help him.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

@drifting on as always I am blown away by your insights and gentle but firm assessments and advice.

It seems you have learned a lot in the school of life. Again I am grateful that you are sharing with me.

You brought up a good point in your response to my #1 in my list, about the fact that sometimes there ARE things going on under the surface inside of my H that he hasn't even accessed. As his wife and a very intuitive woman I often see glimpses of these things but don't always know if it's acceptable to push through to them. Usually the more defensive he is about it and the more he denies his feelings on a matter, the more I can assume that there IS indeed something there.
I am a patient and careful person when it comes to handling others emotions so I usually do well with this and don't press too hard or force vulnerability with one very big exception: if I think he is upset with ME.

Then all of my insecurities come into play and I DO push and I usually push too hard. I leave no stone unturned and he has described me as a pitbull in these moments. 

So for me, I am working on recognizing what triggers my fears and how embracing thise fears causes such problems. My H feels he has to defend himself from my barrage of questions and angles of perspective and while I am just looking for some reassurance that everything is going to be ok...he is retreating further and further away.

Ugh it hurts my heart just recounting this ugly cycle and how painful it is!

In the distant past (pre-EA) I would just back off quickly and retreat. After all of the issues spilled out for us (Post-EA) I became the 'pitbull' because I don't ever want to allow such a chasm to build between us again. But just like Goldilocks I need to find the happy medium of just right in my pursuit of his heart and my own need to be connected through vulnerability.

You said that your wife has shown herself to be very vulnerable to you and that has helped you see that she is truly with you...what does that look like?


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Posted by tigerlilly: You said that your wife has shown herself to be very vulnerable to you and that has helped you see that she is truly with you...what does that look like?


I define vulnerability as showing that soft underside of your belly, exposing your true heart, feelings, and emotions. With that said my wife has shown this through actions. She clearly states what she needs or is lacking. We did have a fallout a little while back that led to a very difficult few days. Other then that she is clear. If there is any doubt in something I say she questions me. 

To use your example, if I ask about our schedule for the upcoming week she will tell me. If I ask again she immediately knows to begin asking questions. What do you mean exactly? Everything is spoken clearly, leave no doubt, be very articulative in your talking. Hard to describe truthfully, just like remorse, but you will know exactly when you see it. 

My mind tends to wander also, my wife would get tired of me saying what are you talking about. She would then include a little bit of the previous conversation added into her new. This took out the what are you saying. It brought me back to the previous conversation and my responses were then more what she was seeking. It's little tricks like this that enable better communication. Actually it's all little things, but putting everything together in the right order and making them habits are difficult. 

I don't I have explained this in a way that makes sense. I will try to expand on this later when I have some more time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Tigerlilly

In response to your question here is the rest of my answer. You asked how my wife shows she is truly with me. By thinking of me, loving me in the way I feel love. My mind is drawing a blank here, but I'm fairly certain the name of the book is his needs/her needs. There is a test in that book that determines how you feel love. Mine was acts of service and affirmation. Hers were acts of service and affection. 

My wife never really complimented me for how I looked or what I did around the house. Acts of service was few and far between from her. I rarely showed affection, but I did do well with acts of service. When you are loved in the way that you feel loved, it shows. I felt that she thought of me more often, appreciated me more. When I love her the way she needs, she feels and sees the same. It's hard to really explain, but you can actually see it. 

Your husband shared that he is feeling as if you will leave. This tells me that he doesn't feel safe, and this is on you tigerlilly. You need to ask him what you have shown, other then the affair, that you want to leave. I felt this too, and so my wife began to text "I love you" no less then eight times a day at work or if she worked and I was off. Yes they are words, but combine them with the other efforts of my wife and it is reassuring. 

When your husband is vulnerable be accepting to this. Relish in the fact he is sharing his heart with you. His feelings and emotions he chose to share with you. Obviously you chose your husband, my wife told me this too. Please don't make this mistake, it can be devastating and patronizing. When my wife just after d-day told me she chose me I went into a rage. I thought we chose each other when she said yes to marrying me. I wasn't privy to the memo that you can test drive others during marriage and then come back to me. As you can see I'm still a little bitter of that one. 

Make your husband feel safe and you will then begin to see him heal. But if he thinks you may leave then he isn't feeling safe and you need to start reassuring him you only love him. Be careful with your words and be very direct. Clear communication is vital to feeling safe. 

Best of luck tigerlilly, if you have any questions with what I wrote just ask.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

jld said:


> Learning not to take every last thing personally could help him.




Are you saying that he is taking things personally or me? 
I sometimes can't tell sometimes when we disagree if my complaint is me taking things personally. Or if it's a valid concern worth verbalizing.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

drifting on said:


> Tigerlilly
> 
> 
> 
> ...




@drifting on that's the second time that book has been recommended to me. I just found my copy today so I'll be cracking it open. Thanks!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

tigerlily99 said:


> Are you saying that he is taking things personally or me?
> I sometimes can't tell sometimes when we disagree if my complaint is me taking things personally. Or if it's a valid concern worth verbalizing.


Well, it can help everyone. But I was thinking that if he in particular could learn it, it would really help your marriage.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

drifting on said:


> TaDor
> 
> I'm glad you found my post helpful, and I wish you the best in your reconciliation.~~ how do you open up to the one who just destroyed you was all I could think. I have my wife my heart and she ripped it from my chest and stomped on it.
> 
> ...


Well, twice I wanted her OUT of my lift. And yeah, I had that feeling that my heart was ripped out of my chest and left a pool of blood. I don't think I'm completely at ease with things... after all, its been a few months. But even this week, I feel we are getting closer.

When we go to MC, its nice to see her take some charge in talking, bringing up her feelings - which is a bit tricky for her as she has been used to me speaking for us (not in controlling way) - but it had turned out she always had some fears about me that she didn't need to have, which required us to talk. And talking is something we do quite a lot more of.

Yes, my short-commings were a problem that I am correcting (I've since talked to some EX's about it) and its already making my life easier. Our situation is not great. We've both lost thousands of dollars over this mess and she has about $2000 in bills she HAS to pay. Her drinking was a big part, and with calculations - she lost/wasted about $8000. I'm around $4000 and we're struggling to get stablized. When I had an accident 2 months ago - that has been a major setback for us financially - that effects us today.

As painful as thing were 6 months ago - I can honestly say that *OUR* communication, feelings are better than ever. Too bad it had hurt the both of us and our toddler to learn these things.

At this point, I am glad I am giving her this chance... and that she is trying... after 2 months of false Rs.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

TaDor said:


> Well, twice I wanted her OUT of my lift. And yeah, I had that feeling that my heart was ripped out of my chest and left a pool of blood. I don't think I'm completely at ease with things... after all, its been a few months. But even this week, I feel we are getting closer.
> 
> When we go to MC, its nice to see her take some charge in talking, bringing up her feelings - which is a bit tricky for her as she has been used to me speaking for us (not in controlling way) - but it had turned out she always had some fears about me that she didn't need to have, which required us to talk. And talking is something we do quite a lot more of.
> 
> ...




TaDor

You have already grown, it's very noticeable in your post, you have humbled yourself to see the mistakes you made in the marriage. This is huge for reconciliation, neither are perfect, both spouses are flawed and through all the pain you feel, you see your mistakes. It's not an excuse for your wife to cheat, there isn't any excuse, but betrayed spouses make errors too. Sometimes this is a very touchy subject here, but each spouse brings errors, each are not perfect. In order to reconcile I had to correct my faults, I had to look deep inside myself, I needed to be a better husband. 

Tigerlilly, I believe this could also help you, to know you aren't the only one who has been wrong. Your husband has faults as you do, he needs to correct his faults so he can be the best he. Betrayed spouses must also do lifting, they own half the marriage problems. Time will be your best healing, you need time and excellent communication. With the communication comes closeness of you communicate well. There won't be that big distance between you both, and that brings the feeling of feeling safe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

I agree @drifting that we need to learn to communicate well. Communication is probably our no.1 issue. Not only do we have trouble communicating but my H is very impatient with HIMSELF about his 'bad' communication. 
Something really cool happened a few weeks ago when I was gone for the day and my H hung out with a long time friend whom he hadn't seen for a while but who has a lot of trust equity with my H.
Basically the friend J, was telling my H that it's not true that he is a bad communicator. Esp since my H gets along very well with many people and seems to have no problems communicating with them!
J pointed out that the communication with me is the place where he struggles and that is because it's related to something else entirely.
He asked H a series of questions like, what do you feel when you are talking with TigerLily and you start getting upset?...from there they went all the way to the bottom line fear he has and that is I will leave him.
J said, what has she said to you about that?
H says, that she won't leave. 
So do you believe her?
Yes.
So what are you really afraid of?
Then my H realized he is afraid that I will disconnect and leave him emotionally like I did during the EA. 
So his 'land mine' (he says 'trigger' is too light of a word) is that he will say things wrong and push me away and I will start to look elsewhere for fulfillment because he's doing it wrong.

It is so interesting because I listened to him tell me all of this and i was floored by the simple fact that all of his crazy blown out of proportion reactions to me in the last two years of our R has stemmed directly from his fear of losing me again.

The reason that floors me is because I always read them as proof that I am too much for him and he just can't handle me in too big of doses. So i must make myself less so that he can manage the burden that is me.

Well I'm happy to say that after that talk with J my H has really made a big shift. He's not panicking anymore the 'land-mines' are father apart and less intense. In fact he's been very even keel and calm and 'chill'

It's a HUGE turning point for me because I feel so much safer knowing that he isn't going to go ballistic over something seemingly minor that I had no idea was a problem like not folding his socks before putting them away, or something equally out of left field.

One thing thats struck me as odd is that he has been very, very tired lately.
I told him I was worried about him and wondered if he should have some bloodwork done, etc.
He took it into consideration and then a while later he said, you know I'm just finally letting go of all of the stress and responsibility I've been carrying thinking that I needed to do everything just right in order to make you happy. I am just learning how to relax and trust that I don't have to do that anymore. 

Yippee! I'm so glad that he is able to begin to relax. Poor guy. But I do understand that it just took the time that it took for him to see that I'm here to stay.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

I can tell you I have the same fear, and that's been over two and a half years for me. At times I think she will leave because she is capable of leaving and loving another. This fear has a major impact on you, shakes you up, and really leaves you feeling insecure. I have had to work on this in therapy, and it's not something you easily get past. 

My wife reassures me she's not leaving, she shows love towards me. My wife can tell when I trigger and holds my hand saying she not going anywhere. My wife also fears I will leave her, I will find s new person to love and care for. She feels I will leave to find someone who hasn't betrayed me. So it can also go both ways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

I've been wanting to write a little update and today seems like a good day to do it as H and I are heading out for a little weekend getaway to the snow!
We don't plan on doing much except staying in our room and staying warm. 
It's been over 3-1/2 years since Dday. It's been a rough road for sure. I thought that the hardest part was the actual emotions and drama of that first month or so as the truth of my feelings came out, but no way...the last 3 years after that have been the most emotionally intense and rigorous of anything in our lives.

I am so grateful that my H had that turn around this summer. Previous to that he was constantly working SO hard to try and win me back by being perfect and doing everything just right. But what he didnt' know was that he already had me. I understand that he just honestly didn't know that and he was triggered at every turn that if I got disconnected in any way that it signaled the beginning of the end...again.
My poor lovely husband. He was so exhausted from working so hard and he was losing himself completely. It was so hard to watch. I tried to point it out but he kept saying he couldn't help it. It was involuntary. 
So again I am very grateful to his friend who pointed this out at the right moment when my H was ready to receive it and move forward.
Since then he has been rediscovering who he is. What he wants too and trusting me more to take care of myself and let him know what is going on inside of me.
We have had many, many, many discussions rehashing everything. And we stay so much more current with our emotions. And when I can't figure out how I feel he helps me and when he is confused about how he feels about something I help him. 

He has learned so quickly about who I am now that I actually tell him! (Imagine that)
I am so much more in love with him than I ever was. (Even in the early teenage days.)

We are learning now about how to communicate about sex. I always had hang-ups about sex and he was just patient and dealt with it. 
I began to let go of my inhibitions about sex a few years before all of this happened. (Which is partly why he thought all was well during my emotionally wayward period.)
Now I am trying to learn how to initiate better. I constantly feel that I am being rejected only to find out that he had no idea I was interested!
Thankfully we talk now. I feel so so so grateful that he has invested the time to learn how to do this in a wa that I can receive love from him. (My first love language is quality time, second encouraging words.)
I am learning to give him what he needs without him having to ask. But also letting him know that I can't read his mind so it's totally ok to tell me! His first love language is physical touch...so I have learned to touch him more, sit next to him, do all of those little things that make him feel loved.
It's like magic to me. If I dont' do it he feels rejected and alone. If I do he feels on top of the world. 

Duh!!


Well that's all for now. I will hopefully write more later after our getaway.
This's is the first time we have gone away just for us since 2 1/2 years ago when it was a total bust because we we're still so fragile.

Im looking forward to a redo!


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

Well our redo turned out to be a re-dud! 

I ended up bringing up an issue I felt we needed to resolve and get out of the way because I realized I was feeling resentful about it.

The issue was a build up of H playing a lot on his games and not coming to bed until the wee hours of the morning for a three week stint. The first week was due to my family being in our home for the holiday and I totally understood him needing time to decompress and the only time was at night. But one week had turned into 3 and then when we got to the hotel room after him talking up all the sex and fun we were going to have he promptly fell asleep at 9:30 and slept through the entire night.

And I was fine with him going to sleep early it had been a drive and I had told him I was happy to watch a movie while he slept…I didn't realize that I was assuming that he would wake up later and want to mess around.
(It's always my expectations that get me in trouble, but the expectations were based on his words and his recent habits)

So when I woke up that morning and he was fast asleep I felt resentful. 
I have learned the hard way, many times over, to not engage in sex when I feel resentful so I knew that we were going to have to talk about it. And honestly I had hoped we weren't going to have to talk about it. 
He was really upset with me for bringing it up and tried to say how it wasn't really that much time and that I spend that much time on my little iPhone games, etc. (completely untrue)

He argued logistics as in how many hours he had really spent, how he shouldn't be punished for wanting to sleep, that he had tried to initiate while I was watching the movie and I turned him down, (I discovered at this juncture that asking him to go take a shower so I could really enjoy things would've been considered a good response. I didn't ask him because I knew he was tired and I figured if he really wanted sex he would go take a shower…lol)

Then finally he told me that he knew that he had screwed up and part of the reason he was doing our weekend getaway was to help make up for it. (He doesn't really like to leave the house too much.)

He said I should've known that was his intention and not had to talk about it but just enjoyed the weekend.

After he said this stuff I was good. I felt good that he really knew that his time on his game had been excessive and now he would be putting things into place to stop that habit (an alarm) and come to bed at a decent hour and I felt good.

Later I initiated love-making and we had fun. I felt understood and at peace and ready to enjoy our getaway!

It wasn't long though before we were fighting again. He was still 'off' so I asked him about the heart stuff behind the fight. He explained that he felt shredded. Like he had peeked behind the door and a cat flew out and attacked his face.

I was pretty surprised at that strong image.
I was pretty sure that he had come on a lot stronger than He remembered esp at the start. He had gotten upset at me for needing to work through anything and had raised his voice and started using the f-word which usually indicates that he is emotionally charged.

Not an innocent little peek behind the door to see if I'm ok.

Anyway…the day went on.

We went to a park and were walking further away from the car then I had expected and I was worried because we left our personal items in the car so he resignedly said we should go back. We got to the car and I said, we can go back and finish the walk. But he didn't want to.

We went to a coffee shop and got into another misunderstanding there.

We went to dinner and actually got into a fight there. Not a 'leave the restaurant kind of fight' but a heated argument that made the family next to us uncomfortable. This was really unusual because my H hates making anyone uncomfortable or talking about anything vulnerable in public. 
He was attacking me with his words. He was telling me how I feel and when I would try to explain to him how I really felt (because he was dead wrong and only I can truly know how I feel and what my motives are) he would talk over the top of me repeating over again what he believed to be true.

Now you have to understand that my pre-40 persona was very meek and mild. I would not even tell someone if they were standing on my toe for fear that would embarrass THEM. I always backed down in an argument and when it came to my H, I would always second guess my own reality in order to try to fit what I thought was happening into his version of the story.

I was always willing to be wrong and often apologized profusely if I upset him. So much so that my 'Im sorry's' don't really mean much to him…I usually have to try to word it a different way because I wore out that word in our first 20 years. 

So anyway, fast forward to the last 3 years and I have been becoming whole. I have been becoming self-aware. Strong. I have an opinion and I let it be made known without shrinking back.

Because it's such a huge contrast to who I was before my husband thinks that I'm controlling him just by stating my desires or commentating on my observations.
I did all of this growth in order to save my marriage. 

I saw that not being in tune with myself and not saying how I felt was costing me my connection to my H. It made me open to anyone who might be able to see me and connect with me. I realized this through what happened almost 4 years ago now and set out to fix it. To heal. To find me and be connected to me so that I could fully be connected to my H as well.

So imagine my shock and disdain when as we are sitting at the table in the restaurant and I'm insisting upon my version of my feelings about the situation without backing down and he is insisting that I do not feel that way, he says: “Ok, you're the Alpha, you win!
"That's what you want right? Well you win”

Wow!

My goal has never, ever, ever, been to be the "alpha". My goal has been to be a team. To know myself, for him to know himself, and for us to fully share ourselves with one another.

Just wow!

It was then that I realized what this was all about. My H never realized until this weekend that I have become more strong than him.

And this is where my dilemma is: I don't want to be stronger. I don't want to be the one that's more in tune. I want to call him up to be beside me. 
I have worked carefully and cautiously these last 3-½ years to not step on his confidence anymore than I already did on DDay.
I have understood through my reading here on TAM that his ego and whole world was destroyed the day he realized that I wanted to be with another man.

I can never make up for that. But I also can't refrain from becoming whole because my H isn't healed yet. I have tried to hold back in some areas. I have refrained from doing anything that is too independent. Even getting in shape (without H) I've been waiting for him to be on board with a health regimen before committing to one myself because I don't want to be doing anything like that without him. I don't want to worry him or cause him to feel challenged.

So for whatever reason this weekend 3 years and 8 months after DDay H is mad.
He's accusing me of being the alpha. 
Which to me was the equivalent of rolling over and submitting to me, in the middle of a restaurant no less.

I don't want it.

I want a strong but gentle man. I'm an old fashioned kind of girl. I want to be led sometimes. I want him to be strong enough to have solid opinions but not be intimidated my me having opinions too.
I want to be a team.

How can I support my H in this and not lose myself?

At the very end of the terrible weekend his eyes were opening.

It was in the wee hours of the morning and neither of us could sleep. He started looking online for how to be powerful in a relationship or something like that.

It scared me because the power was always so lopsided in our first 20 years. He would get angry and everyone would just do what he wanted,
/:

He was murmuring, “Take the Power Back,” by Rage Against the Machine as he was looking for websites.
I get it, and that's an awesome song, but I told him that I will not lose myself again. It's not a matter of taking power from me, but finding his own. Getting an upgrade.

He read for an hour or so as I dozed in and out of sleep.
Then he woke me up and made mad passionate love to me. It was awesome.

The next day on our drive home he shared the things he had read. It all sounded like really sound advice. 

One of the things that was really insightful was an article saying that when you blame your partner you are actually giving them all the power. And you actually feel powerless when you act like the victim.

This was such a relief to me because I knew in my heart of hearts that I have NOT been trying to control him or be the boss.

In the days ahead I hope that he will be able to feel more comfortable in having a gentle sort of power.

Has anyone else on either side of this equation faced this? And how did you handle it? Were you successful and finding a new balance of power? Any tips or thoughts or insights would be appreciated.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

If you want my opinion, your husband is controlling and he's ticked off that he can't simply watch as you acquiesce- now you have this need to work everything out, and though you're doing it for his sake, he's peeved because working things out means he can't "get mad and have everybody give him what he wants" anymore.

I mean, from what you've told me, your "affair" wasn't even infidelity!!

You developed a crush on another human being and you wanted to sleep with him, but you never told the OM or acted on it in any way, and you told your husband you didn't want to be near the OM anymore, which is EXACTLY how you're supposed to handle it!! That's not infidelity! That a normal, human biological instinct! And he's been lording it over you for three and a half years because he's horrified that he's lost the perfect faithfulness of his "meek and mild" plaything!

I'm so sorry if this comes across as harsh, but every time I read one of your posts, I think to myself, "_For what, exactly, is she atoning? And why is he so angry with her for it?_" 

I hope I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, please let me know. Because if I'm right, you're in a seriously toxic situation and you need to get out pronto.

P.S.- If it means anything, I told Mr. Suaveterre about your situation- I am a WW myself- to see if I was missing anything. He says I'm spot-on.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Here's what my IC told me. Stop propping him up by stroking his ego at the expense of your own; you're not helping anyone by pretending to be someone you're not (weak). Learn to stand on your own and take away that leg of the stool you've been propping him up on. Once you do that, he will have a choice: Learn how to grow and improve and learn and become a better man and partner - or else refuse and fall flat on his face and hit rock bottom. Either way, it was his choice. You've stood by him; the only thing you've changed is no longer being willing to support him to make him feel good at the expense of your own soul. And if he really loves you, he will welcome the change in you and your happiness.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

@EllaSuaveterre
I can truly see where you're coming from on this. Because even as I was typing all of that i was realizing it sounded bad. 

The truth is that just like I am a recovering 'almost cheater' my H is a recovering 'almost abuser'
He saw the error of his ways in 2011 and began to make huge changes in his anger management. But the fear of control and blaming and victim playing all have still been a part of the fabric of his makeup.

He is willing to learn and change and he HAS already changed so much.
Concerning my EA he actually blamed himself almost completely for the fact that I had become so disconnected with him. He took responsibility for his his anger had put a wedge between us. 

So in all I DO see what your saying and I also know that he is a good and loving and kind man who has trouble in this area because of his past. 

The good far outweighs the bad and he loves me desperately.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

@tunera I always appreciate your input. Thanks for the vote of confidence to keep on standing for me. One of the things I felt during this weekend was that I need to start doing my own stuff.
I need to actually do the thing that I was afraid would make my husband insecure...that is be independent.
Work out, join a dance class, go on a diet, take a class.
I have to. I think he will actually grow. 
What you said made me feel weepy. Thank you.


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