# What to do with "I don't know".



## zillard

I've been together with the love of my life for 10 years, married for 8, with a lovely 6 yo daughter. We have been lucky enough that I was able to support us all so my wife could stay home with the kiddo - a mutual agreement for the benefit of our daughter. Now that she is in elementary school my wife has gone back to work to resurrect her career, which I thoroughly encouraged because she was becoming a bit of a shut in and needed more interaction with others. 

It's now 1 year into me working days at home and her working swings. I've been unsatisfied with how our work schedules keep us apart (we see each other a couple hour a day tops). She gets home late (1-2 am) and still needs time to wind down. I try and stay up to spend time with her but am exhausted at that point and have to go to bed without her. She joins me anywhere between 3 and 6 am. Then I get up at 7, fix kiddos lunch, take her to school, pick her up from school, and then make lunch for my wife as she gets up and gets ready. All of this during my work hours (at home). Wife leaves for work, I make and have dinner with my lil girl, do activities, homework, bath time and bed time. Then I clean and try to get a nap in before wife gets home. Repeat. 

I've tried not to complain because I saw it as role reversal and she took good care of both of us while a SAHM. But I can't understand why she can't go to bed with me, or at least earlier, and wake herself up to at least see her daughter off to school. Or get up early enough to help out by picking her up. Meanwhile I'm neglecting work, pushing back conference calls, etc so I can see my daughter to and from school. We've talked about it and she just says she can't fall asleep any earlier. And I feel resentment because of this.

But we've made it work. Now lately she'll come home, drink too much, and lash out me. Angrily and very ugly, but conveniently doesn't remember saying nasty things to me. I have to explain in the morning why I'm upset. We had a small argument about the neighbors dogs barking too much. I stepped out onto the back patio and she locked me out, flipped me off, and went to bed. Leaving me to sleep on the patio all night. After I finally got her to wake up by ringing the door bell 1000 times and waking my daughter first, she then lets me in and "doesn't remember". 

Now she's made friends at work and they go out for a few drinks after work once a week, which is fine. She needs social interaction - everyone does. But one night after texting me to say she's going to hang with the crew, she doesn't come home. Misses her daughter's award ceremony at school. Gets home at noon and says she fell asleep watching movies with friends. No other info. I pry. Turns out she slept at a male coworkers house. I pry more. Turns out her girlfriend went home - but she didn't. 

This was the night after she locked me out. I felt hurt, betrayed, lied to, and disappointed. I told her I was expecting at least some sort of gesture that she was sorry for locking me out. Being the nice guy I am I had bought her flowers to show that I can overcome the anger I felt. But what do I get - her overnight at some guy's house. She then tells me she thinks she got married too young. But there is no affair and I have nothing to worry about. I ask if she still even wants me around. "I don't know."

We go through a rough couple days and she has a long talk with her grandmother who was married many time but is now in a decades-long marriage. It gave her some perspective and she says she wants to make it work. I told her I'm completely uncomfortable with her staying over at a man's house - especially one I don't know. She agrees it was a crappy thing to do and promises it won't happen again. 

Things are good for almost two weeks. Love and intimacy, cuddling, favors for each other. Then I get another text that she's going out for a couple beers after work. No other info offered. I text ok and go to bed. Once again I wake up alone. She comes in and acts like nothing happened. I tell her I'm upset, most of all because she isn't being honest and she broke her promise less than 2 weeks into fixing things. She says she didn't think it was a big deal. 

This has me worried that at the very least she is having an EA with this guy. So I look up her phone bill. Never have I done this before and I never would have absent her breaking her promise, and so soon. In the last month there have been 50 texts to me, 100 to her girlfriend, and 400 to this guy. She sees me snooping into her phone bill as a violation of trust but still won't admit she did anything wrong. 

I look at the records in more depth. She texts him before work, during work, after work, from home after I go to bed, and on weekends. She was texting him the whole day we were having a heart to heart about our marriage. 

I ask if she still loves me. She says yes. I ask if she wants to split. She says "I don't know". I ask how she could disrespect our marriage by breaking her promise. "I don't know". I ask her what she would do if the situation were reversed. "I don't know". 

When I asked her to marry me she said "Hell yes!". I asked her if she was still "Hell Yes" wife. "I don't know". I tell her that our marriage won't work if she is not 100% committed. "I don't know". She says she needs time to figure that out. For me, it's a no brainer. I love this woman. Madly and deeply. But I want my "Hell Yeah" wife back. 

The way I see it, "I don't know" is not 100%, and therefore means "NO". Now we are getting ready for a trial separation - she's moving into an apartment and will have daughter on the weekends. Next up - coming up with terms and boundaries.


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## zillard

To clarify - second time she was out all night she was with the same guy, and again stayed all night even though her girlfriend went home. Again I had to pry for each bit of info. 

I told her that even if she is just watching movies with this guy, it still is not ok because she is not being upfront with me, she is lying by omission, she is repeating behavior that she knows hurts me, and she is breaking her promise to me in the process. 

"I don't think it's a big deal, but I guess it is because it's a big deal for you."

Wow, I feel like she thinks that was an apology. This made me feel so small.


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## Couleur

It sounds like you have a good perspective on what is going on -- your wife is in an EA with her coworker (possibly a PA). It also sounds like this situation was made possible by the fact that you two have incompatible work schedules. It also sounds like your wife is in the affair fog, which means that she can rationalize her behavior (staying out all night with OM because he is her "friend" and she deserves to live a little after her years as a SAHM). 

The good news is that she realizes that you two need to work on your relationship. If not, she wouldn't have spent 2 weeks trying to put more into your marriage. BUT -- if she is in contact with the OM then she will be unable to work on your relationship.

In an ideal world I would get her to read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass with you. That is such an effective book at explaining how easy it is to slide into an emotional affair with a coworker. The problem with the book is it is VERY PAINFUL for both the spouse who is cheating and for the betrayed wife. It's hard to read it. But, if you could get her to read it, and then follow the advice in it -- I bet your marriage would improve.

It seems like you two have some tough decisions to make. (It would be best if she could find a different job with different hours and different people.) Marriage counseling would almost certainly help you two work through the issues.


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## BigMac

> She says she needs time to figure that out.


Means - she wants to explore the single live ( with the posOM ) without a hubby watching and controlling her.

You have to understand ( I know it is hard ) that if the posOM is there you don't have any chance and " I don't know " is to send you to the Plan B crowd !

Separate asap and cut all the money yesterday . Give her money and flowers wont make her come back , it will push her away and she'll think is OK to do so.

It is hard I know, I'm in almost the same situation but we don't have a choice !


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## zillard

She initially agreed to marriage counseling. I wanted to see if she'd be proactive about it. 2 weeks and nothing. So I registered us for a marriage counseling class and told her about it. "great" was her sarcastic response. Now she doesn't want to go to counseling together but instead wants us both to do IC while separated. She says it will make us both better parents in the long run. But that is not my chief concern at the moment. It seems to me that BigMac is correct and she wants this separation time in order to see if OM will work out, not to work on our marriage. At least not mainly.


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## legiox

My STBXW did almost same thing. I remember when we first got married, she went to a party with some of her co-workers. Well she become to intoxicated and decided to sleep over at their place. She came home the next day with a hangover and i was livid. Why in the hell would a newly wed wife be sleeping over at single (college/co-workers) house, while im left at the apartment alone after getting off work? THAT WAS A HUGE RED FLAG. We should of went to counseling right after that, but we didnt and now we are going through a divorce.

Zillard, just make sure you don't put your life on hold for her. If she says "I don't know" regarding marriage, i would take that as a no. Put the 180 on her. Don't talk/text/have any contact with her. Do things for yourself and nobody else. Don't put yourself into a rollercoaster of emotions dealing with her. She will just have you right where she wants you and be her plan B. Best thing to do is move forward without her.


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## BigMac

They all do the same :

1 get bored
2 get OM
3 need space 
4 I love you but not in love with you
5 I wanna stay friends 
6 divorce


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## legiox

BigMac said:


> They all do the same :
> 
> 1 get bored
> 2 get OM
> 3 need space
> 4 I love you but not in love with you
> 5 I wanna stay friends
> 6 divorce


I hope she comes to me with the #5 line. I would tell her she can take her "i wanna stay friends" line and shove it up her a$$.


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## zillard

So I sat down and typed up an email with my concerns and possible boundaries for the separation and asked for her input. 

1. Do we have a no contact period or do we have scheduled family and/or date time? 

- she thinks no, our daughter needs to see us happy and spending time together. 

2. Do we have a no physical intimacy rule to clearly separate emotional and physical connection.

- she says "I don't know". She hasn't been feeling it but might want to tomorrow. {back to BigMac's Plan B}

3. Should we have an agreement on who is allowed over during daughter time. I don't want to confuse her with a new place and new faces.

- We agree that her girlfriend can be over with daughter but that's it.

4. Outside of daughter time, will dating be allowed or forbidden? I have no interest in it but don't want to be controlling. Clear boundaries need to be set.

- She says, "I don't know how I feel about it. On one hand I never want to date again, but on the other I wonder what it might be like. No animosity, no weirdness." {Yes, it would cause weirdness. Back to BigMac's Plan B}

5. We need to set a time frame for the trial in order to prevent perpetual limbo. I think 3-6 mos.

- We agree and she mentions possibility of breaking lease early. {hope?}

6. Can we agree to give each other updates on counseling. If one does it and other doesn't the separation is a waste of time.

- She does want open and full disclosure regarding IC progress.

7. Once we agree on boundaries, what happens if one of us crosses them? Put a nail in it or re-evaluate? I think respecting agreements is more important in this trial than ever before.

- she says, "Mutual concerns are important, but life is fluid. [Crap] ebbs and flows. I think if something comes up we need to analyze it as it happens. Neither of us knows what is going to actually happen in the next 3-6 months. Anything could happen. All I know right now is that I have no idea what might happen."

I'm of the mind that if she can't follow a separation agreement of less than 10 rules then what good are ANY agreements, including marriage.

"I love you. So much that I would lay down in front of a train for you without hesitation. I'd take a bullet for you. But I don' t know that I'm still "in love"" {so she would take a bullet for me, but she won't end an "innocent friendship" with OM!?}


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## zillard

BigMac said:


> They all do the same :
> 
> 1 get bored
> 2 get OM
> 3 need space
> 4 I love you but not in love with you
> 5 I wanna stay friends
> 6 divorce


We've passed step 4. Not looking good.


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## BigMac

> Mutual concerns are important, but life is fluid.


BS BS and again BS 

Means - I wanna ride my OM , don't want you to "watch" me doing it BUT I want the financial support !

You're wasting your time ( as I do with my W ) 

@zillard

I'm on #6 and is inevitable , so prepare your self , remember 180 and stay strong !


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## zillard

I'm going to tell her that she can either date or be intimate with me, but not both. 

And if she breaks any of the agreements its over. immediately.


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## BigMac

zillard said:


> I'm going to tell her that she can either date or be intimate with me, but not both.
> 
> And if she breaks any of the agreements its over. immediately.


Won't work and will push her away ! 

She need to miss you , that's the only chance you have if you wanna get her back


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## zillard

BigMac said:


> Won't work and will push her away !
> 
> She need to miss you , that's the only chance you have if you wanna get her back


Are you saying the only option I have if I want to get her back is to let her explore AND control the relationship? I have to share her until she might come to her senses?


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## BigMac

Absolutely not ! 

Separate and move away . Let her miss you ! Cut her off your money so she see how it is to be responsible . Go dark and completely 180 - talking to her business only !
Act happy and enthusiastic . Show her you moved on. 

This the only chance you have ( me too ) . Nothing else will work.


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## Dewayne76

He's right bro. Dark and 180. That's it. 

If you have the money and WILL DO IT... get some books. I'll try to list them in the manner I picked them up. 

1. The Divorce Remedy
2. His Needs Her Needs / Getting Back Together
4. Getting Back Together (Not recommended to me but i saw it.)


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## Hermes

Dewayne76 said:


> He's right bro. Dark and 180. That's it.
> 
> If you have the money and WILL DO IT... get some books. I'll try to list them in the manner I picked them up.
> 
> 1. The Divorce Remedy
> 2. His Needs Her Needs / Getting Back Together
> 4. Getting Back Together (Not recommended to me but i saw it.)


The books I am reading (and re-reading) right now:

1.Divorce Remedy
2. Divorce Busting
3. No more mr nice guy
4. Married Man Sex Primer
5. 5 Love Languages
6. Hope for the Separated
7. His Needs, Her Needs
8. Marriage Fitness

If you can get them, I would highly recommend it.


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## zillard

I'm starting to think that the title of my thread asked the wrong question. I know what to do with "I don't know". Nothing. I can't. That's about her. 

Got another vague text last night that she was going out for A beer after work. I didn't even ask and I'm not going to. I didn't wait up for her. I made myself a comfy bed on the couch and went to sleep. I think I heard her come in around 5 am but didn't bother to check the clock. 

And to be clear, the only reason I'm going to bed on the couch is if I do go to sleep in the bed she still crawls in with me and tries to snuggle. Nope. Have to work harder than that. I'm not a pillow to be disregarded until she needs a soft spot.

To my surprise she got up this morning and helped see daughter off to school. Then she texted me "we can talk after work" (meaning hers). 

I texted back "If I'm up. My sleep is just as important as yours and if you really want to talk you'll make the time."

No answer. She went to sleep. We'll see what happens. However, I now understand what I must do if I want to preserve any sense of self respect that I have. For me it's a no brainer - no matter what she has done I am madly in love with her. But I cannot wait around for a woman that is not in love with me. 

I have an appointment with a lawyer today and a divorce kit coming in the mail. {As well as a copy of No More Mister Nice Guy}


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## TBT

Sorry to see your situation.You've gotten some good advice here.The truth is there isn't really a chance of R as long as OM is in the picture.Read some of the threads in the CWI forum as she seems to be setting herself up to continue her behavior without any interference from you.From what you've said about her staying over at OM's place on 2 occasions there is a big possibility that it is already a PA.Find out as much about the OM as possible and be prepared to report it to HR if need be,but that really depends on how far you want to go.If she just goes on her merry way with her inappropriate actions with no consequences and all the overtures to find solutions are left on your shoulders then you may be stuck in limbo for a long time.I hope you find the strength to do what's right for you.Good luck and take care.


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## zillard

Met with a lawyer yesterday to discuss my options. Hesitant to pull the trigger just yet though so I set an appt with an MC today. 

Wife asked me last night if I have anything to say to her. Told her that her responses to my questions were alarming. I said if she's willing to take a bullet for me then she should give me an hour of her time to go the MC with me so I can discuss my concerns in a neutral environment with a 3rd party perspective. 

She agreed to go with to "air our laundry in front of a stranger". 

Leaving in a few minutes. Wish me luck. Not too hopeful but I need to do this for me before I do anything else. No matter what happens I plan on continuing to see the counselor.


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## zillard

MC session was great for me. Helped me really see how much damage I've done by being emotional unavailable, for which I admitted and apologized. Then MC went on a little spiel about how this causes a wife to feel unloved and enables EA/PA to happen. He explained to wife about affair fog and how both parties need to accept responsibility (trying to get her to open up) and separation would be nail in the coffin because she's already willing to consider dating (and really already is).

She was silent through the session but hurried out in tears. I returned the next day for another session. She would not. 

IC helped me see that there is nothing I can do to fix it and it's her responsibility now, due to the obvious affair (whether PA or not). She would have to cut off all contact with OM and change shifts so that we can spend more time together. And continue MC.

The next day she had another stop off at OM's house, to take him beer because he has hurt his back. She did text me to let me know this first. Immediately I explained how I felt rather than holding it in. Told that I don't care about strange men's back and no man would ask a married woman to bring him beer on her way home unless he wanted her. Told her I felt disrespected and disappointed that she would oblige after my concerns about their R were made clear. Having got this off my chest I was then able to enjoy watching a few comedies. She was completely surprised to come home and find me laughing my butt off in front of the tv. 

We then had an all night discussion about our marriage (initiated by her) and is clear she has already checked out. She admitted that she's been contemplating a split for almost three years and apologized for not letting me know sooner and said she thought separation was a good idea not to fix the marriage but to help me ease out of it.

So we are going to try to enjoy Thanksgiving together as a family and focus on how we still care about each other, but filing after. She's agreed to let me move out of state with my daughter, closer to my family, so daughter can have support from them that she cannot provide. 

Oddly, I feel relieved. And impressed that she can see that the life she wants at the moment, and the place her head is at, is not the best thing for our daughter. 

But wow. Wow.


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## zillard

zillard said:


> She was completely surprised to come home and find me laughing my butt off in front of the tv.
> 
> We then had an all night discussion about our marriage (initiated by her)


So the 180 can work, and does elicit a response, but unfortunately is too late in my case.


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## Conrad

zillard said:


> So the 180 can work, and does elicit a response, but unfortunately is too late in my case.


You have no idea if that's true.

Watch what they do - not what they say.


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## zillard

Conrad said:


> You have no idea if that's true.
> 
> Watch what they do - not what they say.


Perhaps. There is a 2 month waiting period in my state. But now my main focus is to continue IC so I can be a better person for me and my daughter. 

Guess I'll also have to work out whether or not I'm willing to leave a door open for her during those 2 months.


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## Conrad

zillard said:


> Perhaps. There is a 2 month waiting period in my state. But now my main focus is to continue IC so I can be a better person for me and my daughter.
> 
> Guess I'll also have to work out whether or not I'm willing to leave a door open for her during those 2 months.


Do not even worry about that.

Focus on enriching your daughter's life and building yourself through IC and passionate pursuit of your hobbies and interests.

When you interact with her, cool, firm, and dispassionate is the rule.

No needy leading questions, what if's, or any of that slop.

I guarantee, the quieter you get, the more questions about you she will start asking. And, you are at liberty to tell her about your renewed zest for life, fatherhood, hobbies, sports, politics, fitness, etc.

Whatever makes you happy.

Remember what interests you - and start doing it.


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## zillard

Conrad said:


> Remember what interests you - and start doing it.


Thanks Conrad. 

I went out and spent the weekend with some friends from college that I haven't seen in a long time. And we have plans to start hiking again on the weekends. 

When I returned home she went grocery shopping for the first time in years and has started getting up to help see daughter off to school again.


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## Conrad

zillard said:


> Thanks Conrad.
> 
> I went out and spent the weekend with some friends from college that I haven't seen in a long time. And we have plans to start hiking again on the weekends.
> 
> When I returned home she went grocery shopping for the first time in years and has started getting up to help see daughter off to school again.


Keep pursuing you.

What that means is "quit waiting on her"

But, make it proactive and positive. Masculine energy and mettle.


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## IsGirl3

It's one thing for her to check out from you. But to not even put up a fight that you're moving out of town with your young daughter. She wants to reinvent herself. She's going to wake up one day and want back what she had.


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## zillard

IslandGirl3 said:


> It's one thing for her to check out from you. But to not even put up a fight that you're moving out of town with your young daughter. She wants to reinvent herself. She's going to wake up one day and want back what she had.


Yeah, I'm thinking this is more MLC than anything.


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## Garry2012

Keep in mind, that the reason the want to "separate" and "get space" is to HAVE the affair in the first place....while keeping the BS as plan b. This can lead to limbo, where they dont decide which man they want for YEARS.


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## Garry2012

my STBXW told me "i dont know" for 4 months...she was afraid to tell me she wanted out. They do this so they dont feel guilty for hurting you.


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## Garry2012

BigMac said:


> They all do the same :
> 
> 1 get bored
> 2 get OM
> 3 need space
> 4 I love you but not in love with you
> 5 I wanna stay friends
> 6 divorce


Yep, mine followed this to a tee!!! We are working to 6. Although, i didnt even get the "not in love with you part" just i dont love you...period.


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## Conrad

Garry2012 said:


> Keep in mind, that the reason the want to "separate" and "get space" is to HAVE the affair in the first place....while keeping the BS as plan b. This can lead to limbo, where they dont decide which man they want for YEARS.


Well, it is really nice to be financially supported while you live the new exciting single lifestyle.


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## Garry2012

Conrad said:


> Well, it is really nice to be financially supported while you live the new exciting single lifestyle.


Yep, its a nice place to be i guess. Which is why sometimes you have to push them out of limbo...for good or bad.


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## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Yep, its a nice place to be i guess. Which is why sometimes you have to push them out of limbo...for good or bad.


Yeah. Self respect is important. And you can't sacrifice your values for someone else. 

So next week she's no longer DS but STBXW.


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## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yeah. Self respect is important. And you can't sacrifice your values for someone else.
> 
> So next week she's no longer DS but STBXW.


Are you paying her to leave you?


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## zillard

Conrad said:


> Are you paying her to leave you?


Do you mean in terms of alimony, etc, or asking if I'm intentionally giving her incentive to leave?

She makes enough to live and we'll split things we've both worked for. Divorce is the last thing I want but have to put my foot down as I will cannot share her with OM and smile at myself in the mirror.


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## Conrad

zillard said:


> Do you mean in terms of alimony, etc, or asking if I'm intentionally giving her incentive to leave?
> 
> She makes enough to live and we'll split things we've both worked for. Divorce is the last thing I want but have to put my foot down as I will cannot share her with OM and smile at myself in the mirror.


zillard,

You've given a brief synopsis, but many times what we find is that when a woman "needs space", she's merely clearing the decks to go "all in" with posOM.

Many of the guys here will actually finance the living quarters of their spouse while she "discovers herself".

In other words, they pay her to leave them.

It's not possible to nice them out of this stuff.


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## Conrad

zillard said:


> Do you mean in terms of alimony, etc, or asking if I'm intentionally giving her incentive to leave?
> 
> She makes enough to live and we'll split things we've both worked for. Divorce is the last thing I want but have to put my foot down as I will cannot share her with OM and smile at myself in the mirror.


Make her pay for the divorce.

"I'm not ok paying for a divorce I don't want"


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## zillard

Conrad said:


> Many of the guys here will actually finance the living quarters of their spouse while she "discovers herself".


I'm splitting the account and she can use her own paychecks to pay her rent. She wants new car but she also gets the payments. We've both put into savings so we'll split that. We both put into the house so we've discussed splitting that 3 ways with the other 3rd into a savings to finance child visitation. 

And them I'm gone with kiddo. I make more and will take care of kiddo. She makes less and will take care of herself.


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## the guy

zillard said:


> Do you mean in terms of alimony, etc, or asking if I'm intentionally giving her incentive to leave?
> 
> She makes enough to live and we'll split things we've both worked for. Divorce is the last thing I want but have to put my foot down as I will cannot share her with OM and smile at myself in the mirror.


So is she still with OM?
Why dosen't she just get on with it and move out?


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## zillard

the guy said:


> So is she still with OM?
> Why dosen't she just get on with it and move out?


Still claims he's just a friend.


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## Conrad

zillard said:


> Still claims he's just a friend.


Have you investigated?


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## zillard

Conrad said:


> Have you investigated?


As far as PI, no. I'm in a no fault state so "who did what" is irrelevant. 

She has admitted to lying to me to spend time with him. Promised she wouldn't again and keeps going. Whether they touch each other or not isn't a concern for me any longer. The fact that she is putting their relationship above ours says enough. 

She could probably change my mind by reversing that back to how it should be, but that's on her to prove. I don't think she believes I'll go through with it.


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## Conrad

zillard said:


> As far as PI, no. I'm in a no fault state so "who did what" is irrelevant.
> 
> She has admitted to lying to me to spend time with him. Promised she wouldn't again and keeps going. Whether they touch each other or not isn't a concern for me any longer. The fact that she is putting their relationship above ours says enough.
> 
> She could probably change my mind by reversing that back to how it should be, but that's on her to prove. I don't think she believes I'll go through with it.


Put a voice-activated recorder under her car seat.

You'll know what you need to know inside of a week.

It's not about "fault". It's about exposure.


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## zillard

Conrad said:


> Put a voice-activated recorder under her car seat.


Wouldn't work. She texts him instead of calls. After I go to bed, during our "heart-to-hearts" about our marriage "for comic relief", on weekends and when she had car trouble on the freeway before calling me. And she deletes them.


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## Conrad

zillard said:


> Wouldn't work. She texts him instead of calls. After I go to bed, during our "heart-to-hearts" about our marriage "for comic relief", on weekends and when she had car trouble on the freeway before calling me. And she deletes them.


Is it an Iphone?


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## zillard

Conrad said:


> Is it an Iphone?


No. And I'm really not interested in spying on her anymore than I already have with the phone bill. Don't see how it could possibly help. Trying to do all I can to focus on the positive and get through this. 

If she's given up on us (or more accurately given up on herself and her ability to look inward and work through her problems), then my next best scenario is keeping daughter in a stable environment and having as clean a break as possible. She has agreed to that so why rock the boat and cause more resentment at this point? 

I can't fix the R alone, but I can show my daughter that it's possible to end things well, without the animosity that usually comes with a D.


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## Conrad

zillard said:


> No. And I'm really not interested in spying on her anymore than I already have with the phone bill. Don't see how it could possibly help. Trying to do all I can to focus on the positive and get through this.
> 
> If she's given up on us (or more accurately given up on herself and her ability to look inward and work through her problems), then my next best scenario is keeping daughter in a stable environment and having as clean a break as possible. She has agreed to that so why rock the boat and cause more resentment at this point?
> 
> I can't fix the R alone, but I can show my daughter that it's possible to end things well, without the animosity that usually comes with a D.


Let me explain.

She's - obviously - completely in the fog of an affair.

This is not a permanent condition, but it happens to many people.

You have two options here - neither of which is clean and neat.

You can fold your tent, surrender, and give your wife to posOM - conscious of the knowledge that their relationship has about a 5% chance of lasting. And, you can envision the lessons your daughter will take from her father simply giving up his wife to posOM.

Another option is to find out what you're up against and expose her behavior to friends, co-workers, family, etc. This would show your daughter what a man does when he fights for his family.

Exposure makes the "fantasy life" she envisions with posOM crumble and make the affair quite difficult rather than easy. It also increases - by leaps and bounds - the respect she has for the warrior which she married.

But, it's up to you.

If you're not worried about what you're facing, neither am I.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> You have two options here - neither of which is clean and neat.


Thanks for the perspective. Gives me a lot to think about.


----------



## BigMac

Garry2012 said:


> Keep in mind, that the reason the want to "separate" and "get space" is to HAVE the affair in the first place....while keeping the BS as plan b. This can lead to limbo, where they dont decide which man they want for YEARS.


Absolutely agree with you Garry !!!

One thing I find out can " help " her to make her mind = other woman


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Thanks for the perspective. Gives me a lot to think about.


Would you rather your daughter watch you fight for your marriage?

Or would you rather your daughter watch her and posOM fall apart?


----------



## Serenity_Prayer

Your story really struck a nerve with me. My STBX had the same indifference towards my feelings. I'm the crazy one for being suspicious of phone calls and texts with another woman that only happen when he's not around me. It's apparently OK to be FB friends with an ex-girlfriend he totally drooled over. He didn't an overnight gig as far as I know, but he works night shift so it'd be easy and I wouldn't be surprised to find out he did. Like you, I got tired of feeling suspicious and chasing after someone who showed no concern for my feelings.


----------



## Garry2012

Conrad said:


> Let me explain.
> 
> She's - obviously - completely in the fog of an affair.
> 
> This is not a permanent condition, but it happens to many people.
> 
> You have two options here - neither of which is clean and neat.
> 
> You can fold your tent, surrender, and give your wife to posOM - conscious of the knowledge that their relationship has about a 5% chance of lasting. And, you can envision the lessons your daughter will take from her father simply giving up his wife to posOM.
> 
> Another option is to find out what you're up against and expose her behavior to friends, co-workers, family, etc. This would show your daughter what a man does when he fights for his family.
> 
> Exposure makes the "fantasy life" she envisions with posOM crumble and make the affair quite difficult rather than easy. It also increases - by leaps and bounds - the respect she has for the warrior which she married.
> 
> But, it's up to you.
> 
> If you're not worried about what you're facing, neither am I.


At the advice of someone on TAM, I read the "Living in Limbo" book. Boy, it was like it was written about my wife. Same story that we see over and over again on TAM.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> It's not about "fault". It's about exposure.


If I can get evidence, who do I expose to? 

posOM is single. DS cut off her family years ago due to abusive childhood, except her sick elderly grandmother (who likes me and has told DS she can't understand why she'd leave me). She has a new girlfriend who works with DS and posOM, but has already distanced herself from her childhood bf. Then there is my family, who has been like her second family for a decade. She says she's worried because she doesn't want to disappoint everybody (on my side).

My parents actually wrote her a pretty nice letter telling her she'll always be their daughter. They also asked what was wrong as they thought that she loved me - so why would she want to date others.

That did not go over well. She woke me to rant - how dare they accuse her of not loving me, etc. I remained calm and let her get it out, then went back to bed.

Trying to say cool and dark. I've had good friends over for bbqs twice in the last week while she's at work. Went out and got contacts and a pair of new Raybans.

Since she's initiated talks and admitted that her actions have made it impossible for me to trust her at the moment and also impossible to ever see her "friend" as anything but a threat. Says she wishes me and posOM could be friends because we are so similar. I then got her to partially admit that this is exactly why her relationship with him is dangerous, because she feels a connection to him that is much like her connection to me. 

She says we're done and lets file after Thanksgiving. At the same time she agrees to go to MC with me next week. Then walked past the couch I was lying on as she went to bed and told me it's ok if I sleep in the same bed. 

I did not. It was then morning and I had to stay up with kiddo. Now she's preparing a Turkey feast, making at least one dish specifically for me that I did not request.

Happy Thanksgiving.


----------



## Garry2012

Not uncommon for the WS to give mixed signals. The theory goes that as they see you moving away, they pull you back in....to keep you as an "option". I get some too..though since i am in the anger phase, she has really put them on the down low. I filed on Wed, and she actually just asked me yesterday to go to her family's house on thanksgiving. 

Happy Thanksgiving to all


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> I filed on Wed, and she actually just asked me yesterday to go to her family's house on thanksgiving.
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving to all


Hope you have a good one Garry. Is rough but at least we can enjoy the yummy food today, right!


----------



## Garry2012

You too zillard...i am smoking my first turkey, got the surround sound ready for football, and cold beer in the fridge!!!


----------



## BigMac

Garry2012 said:


> Not uncommon for the WS to give mixed signals. The theory goes that as they see you moving away, they pull you back in....to keep you as an "option". I get some too..though since i am in the anger phase, she has really put them on the down low. I filed on Wed, and she actually just asked me yesterday to go to her family's house on thanksgiving.
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving to all


WOW

That is a big progress ... what did you answer ( if you even answered ) ? What was her reaction ?


----------



## Garry2012

She doesnt know....but i was thinking of giving her the filing news on her birthday (tomorrow)....not sure...or i will tell her on Sat.

She has asked me before if i have filed, so i dont think it will elicit a big reaction...may hit her a few days down the road, when reality sets in.


----------



## HappyKaty

Garry2012 said:


> She doesnt know....but i was thinking of giving her the filing news on her birthday (tomorrow)....not sure...or i will tell her on Sat.
> 
> She has asked me before if i have filed, so i dont think it will elicit a big reaction...may hit her a few days down the road, when reality sets in.


Do it on her birthday.


----------



## Garry2012

it is a present right? 61 days to freedom....cost me a few hundred bucks...so...its a present! haha


----------



## BigMac

Garry2012 said:


> She doesnt know....but i was thinking of giving her the filing news on her birthday (tomorrow)....not sure...or i will tell her on Sat.
> 
> .


ha ha , that will be very mean ... she may hate you till the rest of your live for that !

If you made your mind already , then go ahead ahhahah


----------



## Garry2012

it is cold....hmmm haha


----------



## HappyKaty

BigMac said:


> ha ha , that will be very mean ... she may hate you till the rest of your live for that !


Who cares?


----------



## Garry2012

true....


----------



## BigMac

HappyKaty said:


> Who cares?



I'm learning new things every day , Thank you everyone


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> You too zillard...i am smoking my first turkey, got the surround sound ready for football, and cold beer in the fridge!!!


Hope you had a good one!

We had a talk about her betraying my trust (she admits) and she says she wants me to be able to trust her. Told her first step to rebuilding that is I would need her passwords and I offered her mine. Big no. 

Note this is after she says she is completely done with me and wants to file immediately and will be looking at places Saturday. 

I asked why, if nothing to hide. She says that I would misinterpret things like her calling posOM "cupcake" - and gave some story about how its an inside joke. Told her if we are over, then why does it matter? 

My thoughts are if she's willing to divulge a pet name but still unwilling to share, then it must be tip of the iceberg. 

I found that she changed her FB password the same day she told me she was considering dating during separation - and stayed out all night. 

So, I can reset her FB password and get in, but she will know as she'll be locked out. Should I? At this point thinking I don't have much to lose by upsetting her.


----------



## Garry2012

I dunno, big gamble I guess unless you know she is communicating with him that way. Does she have chat apps? communicating through text? Mine knew i was watching, or could watch, which is why she got a burner phone. How does she access FB? computer? or phone? tried a keylogger on the computer?


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> I dunno, big gamble I guess unless you know she is communicating with him that way. Does she have chat apps? communicating through text? Mine knew i was watching, or could watch, which is why she got a burner phone. How does she access FB? computer? or phone? tried a keylogger on the computer?


Browsed and exposed her lies to her work friends.

She finally admitted that she cheated on me by running to another man for comfort when things got tough - and lied to me to cover it up and keep it going. But absolutely not willing to do anything to set it right. She's given up.

Almost every time we have a talk I uncover another lie. Found out she's pretty much been stalking posOM, going to his place at night to take him beer even though he says he doesn't need any - and then telling me she's doing it because he wanted her to. 

He's began to pull away and doesn't want to talk to her anymore. She was vilifying me and making me sound like big terrible jealous a$$ that doesn't want her to be her own woman. (wasn't aware that being your own woman meant sleeping wherever you please). He told her he won't be the reason she loses her daughter. The whole next night she was messaging him, begging for HIM to forgive her because she doesn't want to lose him (no mention of losing me or her daughter). "I don't want to lose you because of someone else's insecurities (mine)."

Funny. I didn't know that expecting your wife to be honest and faithful was insecure. Thought it just meant being married. LMAO.

Also found out that last summer she was messaging a guy she dated before me - talking about the dreams they'd both been having about each other that were just "too good". A lot of pet names, I love yous, etc. And she started messaging that guy again as soon as posOM started pulling back. 

I gave her back my wedding band today and have paperwork almost complete. It's apparent this current EA was not an isolated incident - so I'm done now too.

Hope she enjoys being lonely, because I'm gonna have a blast with my daughter!


----------



## Garry2012

Good for you!! I'm right there with you... My STBXW has several men.... Was talking to her "best friend" two days ago at 1230 am.... For a woman that always goes to bed at 9, I find that very Interesting. Stay strong zillard!! There are a few of us in the same boat!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Was talking to her "best friend" two days ago at 1230 am.... For a woman that always goes to bed at 9, I find that very Interesting.


Yeah, it's funny how the DS has no problem staying up/out unusually late to talk to "friends" but completely disregard their spouses and children without a second thought.


----------



## Garry2012

So true....she could not stay up for an extra hour to get the "emotional bond" by talking to me, but runs to other men when needed...sometimes "the fog" really baffles me...she has zero intelligence these days...


----------



## Hermes

Garry, 

Did you ever give her the filing? Did you do it on her birthday?


----------



## Garry2012

She was out of town on her birthday, but i put it in an evelope labled "Birthday Gift" and handed it to her yesterday...told her " got you what you wanted for your birthday."


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> She was out of town on her birthday, but i put it in an evelope labled "Birthday Gift" and handed it to her yesterday...told her " got you what you wanted for your birthday."


ohhhh, nice!

Mine decided that I should keep the new car and the payments because she won't be able to afford it. I agree as it will free up money for her to use for travel to see her daughter. 

Then last night she asked me if she could keep the new car after she leaves - until I move out of state - while I keep paying for it. Her reasoning was it would be cheaper on gas to come over and see daughter. 

I told her it was a little insulting for her to ask. She wants divorce and wants to be an independent woman so that means paying her own way. I will take daughter to her as often as possible but I won't pay her to come see her daughter, that's not fair. I've already agreed to waive child support.

She blew up and started with the "my money bought it" argument. I explained that during marriage there is no mine and yours as everything is shared. But after divorce when assets are split the only thing we share is daughter. 

Now I'm a selfish jerk.


----------



## HappyKaty

Garry2012 said:


> She was out of town on her birthday, but i put it in an evelope labled "Birthday Gift" and handed it to her yesterday...told her " got you what you wanted for your birthday."


You are surely one of my heroes.


----------



## Garry2012

yeah, so far my stbxw has given me mostly everything....but I know my day is coming. Hopefully she stays in utter fear that i will run to her family with all the details, and just gives me everything (i will still tell them, just after its all final)


----------



## Garry2012

HappyKaty said:


> You are surely one of my heroes.


Thank you...i would have rather attached to a brick but....haha


----------



## HappyKaty

Garry2012 said:


> Thank you...i would have rather attached to a brick but....haha


As in "attach a brick (or several) to her feet and dump her in the lake?"



I'm only teasing.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> As in "attach a brick (or several) to her feet and dump her in the lake?"


I went to the shooting range yesterday to get some frustration out - they have a target of a zombie attacking a woman that looks a lot like my stbxw. My aim was much better than usual. lol


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> I went to the shooting range yesterday to get some frustration out - they have a target of a zombie attacking a woman that looks a lot like my stbxw. My aim was much better than usual. lol


Haha.

Funny story.

My brother took me to play golf, a few weeks ago.

It was my first time, so I was at his mercy, for advice.

My first drive sucked.

In fact, it was worse than that.

He gave me another try and said, "Katy, look at that ball. Imagine his face is on it."

The golf ball travelled 220 yards.

Legit.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> Haha.
> He gave me another try and said, "Katy, look at that ball. Imagine his face is on it."
> 
> The golf ball travelled 220 yards.
> 
> Legit.


Excellent!


----------



## Garry2012

I think i would spend about 15 minutes cursing at the ball, then would hit it..lol


----------



## HappyKaty

Garry2012 said:


> I think i would spend about 15 minutes cursing at the ball, then would hit it..lol


I'd rather just knock the sh1t out of it and send it into the woods to never be found again.


----------



## Garry2012

Happy, you crack me up!


----------



## zillard

Well today was weird. She was crying from the moment she got up (this was a first). Kept standing in my office doorway expecting me to say something. I just made sure she saw me filling out the papers. She'd walk away and repeat. She cried about me giving back my ring. Asked her why she was shocked. She said, "cuz now it's getting real". I said, "yeah, this stack of papers is pretty real too". 

She was supposed to go get a bank account today and look at apartments. She got up early to do so. She did neither. So I went out to get an appointment with a child counselor - something she also said she'd do. She knows we have to get daughter one and break the news to her before STBXW moves out.

Stayin strong. For me and my precious kiddo!


----------



## BigMac

GREAT job zillard ! Very proud of you ! 

My favorite is this :



> She said, "cuz now it's getting real".


Ha ha ha , did she really expected she can screw around and hubby will stay home and take care of the kiddo , pay the bills , make dinner etc ???

How arrogant is that !


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> I went out to get an appointment with a child counselor - something she also said she'd do. She knows we have to get daughter one and break the news to her before STBXW moves out.


To clarify - I'm not trying to use my daughter. She's very observant and I think is already starting to figure out that something isn't right, even though I'm careful even to pull sheets off the couch before she wakes, etc. 

Regardless of what happens (and not certain R is even possible at this point), it can't hurt to get her comfortable with a counselor first.


----------



## Garry2012

Good job Zillard!! Ok, NOW im jealous!!! I get ZERO reaction!!! haha


----------



## BigMac

Garry2012 said:


> Good job Zillard!! Ok, NOW im jealous!!! I get ZERO reaction!!! haha



She could be doing 180 on you ... and who knows she could be here on Tam too !


----------



## Garry2012

No, I would bet my life she is not. I haven't done a good job at hiding my anger, so she knows I want her out (i guess telling her that several times doesn't hurt either).


----------



## zillard

Woke to 4 emails in a row about how sorry she is for involving me in her f'd up life and how she needs to save us by letting us go.

Told her I agree. Go look for an apartment. :scratchhead:


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> Woke to 4 emails in a row about how sorry she is for involving me in her f'd up life and how she needs to save us by letting us go.
> 
> Told her I agree. Go look for an apartment. :scratchhead:


Then she asked me how much rent she can afford - after yelling at me 2 nights ago for talking to her like a father.


----------



## zillard

Seriously thinking that I've been a codependent in denial living with a high functioning BPDer.


----------



## Garry2012

Zillard, I have the same thing! My STBXW is leaving me to be independent (and have an affair), yet (up to a couple weeks ago) has been coming to me to make her decisions. What part of "we are divorcing" and no longer "friends" is she not getting?!?


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Zillard, I have the same thing! My STBXW is leaving me to be independent (and have an affair), yet (up to a couple weeks ago) has been coming to me to make her decisions. What part of "we are divorcing" and no longer "friends" is she not getting?!?


Exactly. Woke to more emails this morning. STBXW is going on and on about how she should have pushed me away a long time ago. How because she didn't she has ruined me. She keeps apologizing to me - but not for anything she has done - for who she is. Yet says she doesn't regret marrying me (huge contradiction there). 

I'm currently not responding to them. But after she moves out I will send her a good bye letter telling her that she has not ruined me. She can't. That is not in her control. I am a strong person and yes, she has hurt me by her actions, but I know how to heal. Unlike her, I am not afraid of being alone. I was afraid of losing the person I love. But it's clear to me now that I can't lose something that I never really had. She is incapable of real love because she does not love herself. And I will be better off without that illusion of a real, mutual relationship.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> STBXW is going on and on about how she should have pushed me away a long time ago.


And if she truly feels this way - she should have respected me enough to leave. Pushing is cowardly.


----------



## BigMac

> But after she moves out I will send her a good bye letter telling her that she has not ruined me



Why do you need that ?

Conrad would say - you're looking for her approval !


----------



## Garry2012

yeah...well, mine has been giving me the "i dont know" for 4 months...that too is very cowardly (while she talked to her boyfriend behind my back). Yet, she didnt start to plan her escape in any way, form or fashion--so now she is floundering to get out.


----------



## zillard

BigMac said:


> Why do you need that ?
> 
> Conrad would say - you're looking for her approval !


Actually that is a great point. 

I feel better just having written these thoughts to get them out of my head. Why share them with someone who won't / can't hear them?


----------



## Garry2012

I have seen a letter where you dont exactly say "you havent ruined me", but you do say things to the effect of "We had some good years;I will move on to a happy life etc" i guess as a form of closure.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> I have seen a letter where you dont exactly say "you havent ruined me", but you do say things to the effect of "We had some good years;I will move on to a happy life etc" i guess as a form of closure.


Why not be OK knowing she thinks that she ruined me? She will anyway, regardless of what I say. Instead maybe she'll be surprised and shocked when I do move on and find happiness that isn't dependent on her. And if she isn't surprised, or doesn't see it, I'll still be happy.

I know that we had great years together, regardless of what she thinks. I really don't need her acknowledgement to know that I truly loved and can again.


----------



## zillard

I do still want and crave her approval. That's the stage that I am in and that's why I need to work on myself. 

But I do not need it.


----------



## Garry2012

I would think you being happy is proof enough that she didnt ruin you. We had great years too, up to about May of this year in fact. 

If you dont need her acknowledgement that you loved, why do you need to acknowledge you will be just fine? Live it...she will know..one way or the other i would think. Just a thought.


----------



## BigMac

zillard said:


> Why not be OK knowing she thinks that she ruined me? She will anyway, regardless of what I say. Instead maybe she'll be surprised and shocked when I do move on and find happiness that isn't dependent on her. And if she isn't surprised, or doesn't see it, I'll still be happy.
> 
> I know that we had great years together, regardless of what she thinks. I really don't need her acknowledgement to know that I truly loved and can again.



By admitting that she'll be on 50K feet and not you ! She'll think - haha that b*****d , I got him good , let him live in his s^%t , I'm the winner here . And she'll feel better.

If you don't say anything , then she'll be confused and wondering why.

Tomorrow is my D day and technically I'll be divorced . I don't plan to say anything at all . Just after we sign I'll go out I'll call my NG and act like yet-another-day .


----------



## Garry2012

Since TX is so easy, its only 60 days from file to final. I want some sort of closure letter, but it will not be worded to "show her" that i will be ok. I hope to be able to word it to say we had some great times, I wish you well in your life kinda thing. Something like Lebron did..."Garry is taking his talents to (insert hot babe's name here)!!"


----------



## zillard

Wow - she finally confessed... sort of. Not really. lol

Here's the progression since I started the thread:

1. He is just a friend
2. I just fell asleep watching movies
3. You have nothing to worry about
4. I only text him for comic relief
5. He just gets me
6. I wish you two could be friends
7. I can talk to him about real stuff because he understands.
8. There's nothing romantic about it.
9. It's not like I cheated on you.
10. I only lied so I wouldn't hurt you
11. The EA definition only sorta fits
12. You don't want me to have any friends.
13. You know all there is to know.
14. I won't give up my friend. You and me are done.
15. I cheated on you by running to him for comfort.
16. I've told you everything. Please trust me.
17. Can't you see he's just a friend?
18. Nothing else fits, so I had to wash my outfit.
19. I lied to you because I was afraid you'd hurt me.
21. Nothing happened. 
22. I showered cuz I smelled like a man. I wore his sweater.
23. I didn't want you to get jealous, so I lied.
24. It's not an affair.
25. We just kissed.
26. My grandma told me never to tell. 
27. It was an affair. 
28. I'm sorry. You'll never trust me again.


----------



## zillard

60 days from Monday. Woot.


----------



## Garry2012

Im jealous...how did you get all that? I get nothing....and she just wants out.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Im jealous...how did you get all that? I get nothing....and she just wants out.


1-9 after I printed out the text history and showed her I knew she was texting him all the time, including during our heart to hearts.

10-13 during the days where I refused to accept blame for her actions. She kept trying to paint the entire marriage black in order to justify/blame shift and I told her flat out "I will NEVER apologize for YOUR affair".

14-16 after I exposed her lies to her work friends - making them see that I wasn't the crazy jealous controlling husband they were told I was. Plus I threatened to contact posOM and she begged me not to (she'd been lying to him too and was more worried about losing him than me). I did after adding him on FB, but wasn't hateful, just pointed out her lies and broken promises. Now he's pulled back from her as he "won't be the reason she loses her daughter".

18-28 Over the last couple days since I purchased "Not Just Friends" and highlighted/flagged the ship out of it and left it for her to read. She quit after 20-30 pages and kept waking me up over and over to try and prove me wrong on each little point. I called her BS and kept going back to sleep. 

I asked if she got to the part about rebuilding trust and said I know she wants me to be able to trust her again, even after we split, as we have to co-parent. Told her she'd have to be completely open with me. She let an inch of the story out each time - each time professing that was it. I kept calling her BS. "I've lived with you for 10 years. I know when you're full of ship".

Then I let out that the very first time she was out all night I noticed that she washed her clothes (just her outfit from the night before) and showered immediately upon arriving home (both completely off her normal schedule). Been holding that one back since this started. 

So for now she claims it was just kissing but was an affair, not just emotional. Still don't believe it's all out in the open. Too convenient how it keeps coming out in baby steps, each just a little worse than the last. And she's still getting the deer in the headlights look when I show a card. 

Got my papers reviewed by my lawyer today and filing on Monday. The 60 days period should end right before my birthday (Valentine's Day). I'll be going out that night and treating myself - rather than buying someone else gifts on my bday.


----------



## Conrad

Good job Zillard.

Quite a bit of progress from your first post.

Congrats.


----------



## Garry2012

See, i cant make progress because my STBXW refuses to ackowledge ANYTHING about him. She doesnt know i have her on VAR talking to him. Anytime i make a comment or send her a text that comments on him, she ignores. I think she got legal advice to do so.


----------



## Conrad

Garry2012 said:


> See, i cant make progress because my STBXW refuses to ackowledge ANYTHING about him. She doesnt know i have her on VAR talking to him. Anytime i make a comment or send her a text that comments on him, she ignores. I think she got legal advice to do so.


Have you exposed to anyone else?


----------



## Garry2012

Conrad said:


> Have you exposed to anyone else?


No, I will not expose. I would get the confession maybe, but prob not. And I would solidy her hating me for life. WE have alot of kid sharing etc to do. I may lead her family there someday, but I wont expose.


----------



## Conrad

Garry2012 said:


> No, I will not expose. I would get the confession maybe, but prob not. And I would solidy her hating me for life. WE have alot of kid sharing etc to do. I may lead her family there someday, but I wont expose.


Then you will reap what you've sown.

We all make choices.

Good luck.


----------



## Garry2012

Conrad said:


> Then you will reap what you've sown.
> 
> We all make choices.
> 
> Good luck.


Sown nothing. It makes no difference whether her family knows or not. I will be MUCH better off, in the divorce, and after if i dont expose. I know everyone recommends to, but that isnt always the best path. Would NOT save the marriage or stop the divorce, just make it awful.


----------



## Conrad

Garry2012 said:


> Sown nothing. It makes no difference whether her family knows or not. I will be MUCH better off, in the divorce, and after if i dont expose. I know everyone recommends to, but that isnt always the best path. Would NOT save the marriage or stop the divorce, just make it awful.


Then proceed with my blessing.

And, do not question why Zillard gets a response that you do not.


----------



## Conrad

For what it's worth, I would expose her lying ass to all of creation.

Your mileage may vary.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Good job Zillard.
> 
> Quite a bit of progress from your first post.
> 
> Congrats.


Thanks Conrad, for the congrats and for encouraging me to expose. 

There have been some very hard days/nights and extremely heated arguments since I did - but it was definitely worth it, for a few reasons. 

I have received more truth from her than I would have, which will help me heal faster. Probably not much quicker, but I can see how divorcing with her still adamant that they were just friends would have enabled me to keep emotionally second guessing what I rationally know to be true. That would have made healing more difficult - but definitely not impossible or even improbable. 

By exposing I placed my desire for closure above her needs and feelings, which will help me disengage in a more healthy manner because I showed myself that it is ok to focus on me. 

By her admitting things out loud to me (even if I had to pry with a jackhammer), she will also be able to heal quicker... should she chose to do so. She can step out of denial and feel and acknowledge her guilt and shame, rather than continuing to lie to me for years - adding to the guilt and shame with each lie.

Most importantly, all of these things will improve the co-parenting situation in the long run.


----------



## Garry2012

Conrad said:


> Then proceed with my blessing.
> 
> And, do not question why Zillard gets a response that you do not.


This isnt an exact science. If it were, there would be one handbook to solve the issue. 

Results may vary.

I will ask as i please thank you.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> Thanks Conrad, for the congrats and for encouraging me to expose.
> 
> There have been some very hard days/nights and extremely heated arguments since I did - but it was definitely worth it, for a few reasons.
> 
> I have received more truth from her than I would have, which will help me heal faster. Probably not much quicker, but I can see how divorcing with her still adamant that they were just friends would have enabled me to keep emotionally second guessing what I rationally know to be true. That would have made healing more difficult - but definitely not impossible or even improbable.
> 
> By exposing I placed my desire for closure above her needs and feelings, which will help me disengage in a more healthy manner because I showed myself that it is ok to focus on me.
> 
> By her admitting things out loud to me (even if I had to pry with a jackhammer), she will also be able to heal quicker... should she chose to do so. She can step out of denial and feel and acknowledge her guilt and shame, rather than continuing to lie to me for years - adding to the guilt and shame with each lie.
> 
> Most importantly, all of these things will improve the co-parenting situation in the long run.


See, she knows i know. Exposing would create the WORST possible co-parenting situation for me. I may lead her family to push for answers, but it does me no good to have her confess, it would be nice if she did, but practically, it will benefit me far more to wait until after the divorce is final at least.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> See, she knows i know. Exposing would create the WORST possible co-parenting situation for me. I may lead her family to push for answers, but it does me no good to have her confess, it would be nice if she did, but practically, it will benefit me far more to wait until after the divorce is final at least.


I know your situation is probably different than mine (of course, how could it not be), but my stbxw has been MUCH more cooperative and easy to deal with since exposure (well, since the initial fallout of the exposure anyway).

She actually finished the "Not Just Friends" book last night and has been apologetic all day. The book has definitely helped too, but I'm certain that she would not have been willing to read it before exposure. 

We both sat down and broke the news to D6 tonight... together. On the surface she is handling it well - much more focused on what art and toys she'll get to keep at mom's apartment, and whether or not the place will have a pool. Internalizing feelings as she isn't sure how to communicate them, but have child psych for her starting Thursday. 

stbxw moving out in a week, as long as she doesn't keep dragging her feet. But with D6 knowing now she better %$#@# do it. 

I can't wait to sleep in a bed again. My back is killing me.


----------



## Garry2012

So, she she read the book and still no change of anything? My STBXW wont read or get help...just wants to cruise to divorce. I just want her to put ANY effort into trying...but she wont. I need to reapproach the issue with her, but I doubt she will change.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> So, she she read the book and still no change of anything? My STBXW wont read or get help...just wants to cruise to divorce. I just want her to put ANY effort into trying...but she wont. I need to reapproach the issue with her, but I doubt she will change.


Oh there has definitely been a significant change since she's read the book. She's been crying and telling me she's sorry. She obviously feels TERRIBLE for what she has done to me, our marriage, and our child. She set an appointment with a psych for herself this morning, which is huge. She's mentioned a need to do so for years due to childhood trauma and mood disorder, but hasn't seen one in 15 years.

However, it has not changed her desire to leave and be single. She "got married too young" and "never got a chance to be her own woman". She needs to "discover herself". She's vowing that she will never again get married. She "needs to save" me and D6 by "pushing [us] away before she ruins [us]".

I made it perfectly clear to her that I am not divorcing because of who she is - if that was the case I would have left a long time ago. But I am divorcing because of what she has done, and more importantly because she has given up and is unwilling to put forth the effort necessary to repair the relationship.


----------



## zillard

Now that I am (or at least trying very hard to be) done focusing on her, I have been doing a lot of introspection. 

I was talking with a colleague in a similar situation and he asked me, "what is it about being a designer?!?!" Many of us in creative occupations have been through this - 4 out of 5 of my closest colleagues.

After some thought, I responded. I think this rather simply explains the role that I played, and what I need to do to prevent myself from repeating the pattern in the future: 

It seems that by spending most of our waking moments in our own little creative wonderland we enable those closest to us to see us as out of reach and unappreciative. If only we could focus our design skills and creative energy on effectively communicating the depth of our feelings, we'd be in stronger relationships. Unfortunately it's often too little too late when we come to realize this, as it takes a shocking event to snap us out of the cloud.


----------



## zillard

I filed today - right before noon on 12/12/12. Included in the filing was a signed and agreed upon joint custody plan allowing me to move out of state with my daughter after the house sells.

I went over it with stbxw last night in order to get her signature so the custody agreement could be filed with the petition. It was actually one of the most peaceful evenings that I've had in months. It showed me that I making progress, and that I still have further to go. 

I sat on the couch with the papers ready, and she came over and sat down. But there was a huge difference this time - she intentionally sat so close to me that her bent leg was over mine, half way into my lap. This is the first physical contact we've had in weeks. I won't lie - I was even a bit aroused. 

But I remained strong, and it didn't really take as much effort as I thought it would. Previously I would have jumped at the chance to scoot closer, to rest my hand on her leg, to lean in, anything to make it go further. But I didn't. 

We went over the stack of documents and we had to stop multiple times as she teared up. She cried a little about not being raised in a loving family that my daughter and I would be returning to. She cried a little about knowing I am a strong, attentive parent and will help her daughter thrive. And she expressed gratitude that I wasn't being childish and taking her to the cleaners or getting vindictive. 

I listened. I validated. But I did not comfort her physically as I have in the past - I didn't rub her back or hold her. I didn't tear up with empathy or wallow in my own sorrow. I returned to the paperwork after each tangent and brought the conversation back to the matter at hand... the divorce papers that would be filed the next day. She got up for more than a couple breaks - snacks, bathroom, etc and each time sat right back down as she had before; even a little closer. 

There was no blaming, no anger, no frustration last night. I was calm. We finished reviewing the paperwork, I collected the signed documents, and I got off the couch. She then tried small talk and even joking a bit. I was not unkind or dismissive, but I was tired and didn't find it funny so I went to bed. 

I slept well. Or as well as my back would allow on the upstairs couch. Better than I have in weeks. 

Today after I filed I changed my FB status from married to "it's complicated". I also left a post:

"What was is over. What will be begins now. Bring it on! I'm ready."

This was not for her, even though I know she has been trolling my profile lately. This was for me - I am accepting the situation and letting my family and friends know where I'm at. After I heard her get up I left my upstairs office and went down to give her her copies and the acceptance/waiver of service form for her to notarize. She was at the computer crying - though she tried to hide it. I went outside and had lunch in the sun on the patio. I had gone to Subway and for the first time returned home with a 6" sub instead of a foot long for us to split. 

She still hasn't selected an apartment, but I care less everyday. Not because I hope that her staying an extra day or two will give me another chance to convince her to stay longer. Rather because I am where I am and I'm headed somewhere, and a little excited about it! The process has begun no matter how she reacts. 

It is easier for me to not be angry or devastated just by looking at her, because I am accepting that our love relationship is over and I am making plans for me and DD. I still get very sad and cry at times. But not around her - she can't comfort me because she is gone, even if still here physically. I'm on my own now, and find comfort in knowing that things can only get better from here.


----------



## Too Little Too Late?

zillard said:


> I filed today - right before noon on 12/12/12. Included in the filing was a signed and agreed upon joint custody plan allowing me to move out of state with my daughter after the house sells.
> 
> I went over it with stbxw last night in order to get her signature so the custody agreement could be filed with the petition. It was actually one of the most peaceful evenings that I've had in months. It showed me that I making progress, and that I still have further to go.
> 
> I sat on the couch with the papers ready, and she came over and sat down. But there was a huge difference this time - she intentionally sat so close to me that her bent leg was over mine, half way into my lap. This is the first physical contact we've had in weeks. I won't lie - I was even a bit aroused.
> 
> But I remained strong, and it didn't really take as much effort as I thought it would. Previously I would have jumped at the chance to scoot closer, to rest my hand on her leg, to lean in, anything to make it go further. But I didn't.
> 
> We went over the stack of documents and we had to stop multiple times as she teared up. She cried a little about not being raised in a loving family that my daughter and I would be returning to. She cried a little about knowing I am a strong, attentive parent and will help her daughter thrive. And she expressed gratitude that I wasn't being childish and taking her to the cleaners or getting vindictive.
> 
> I listened. I validated. But I did not comfort her physically as I have in the past - I didn't rub her back or hold her. I didn't tear up with empathy or wallow in my own sorrow. I returned to the paperwork after each tangent and brought the conversation back to the matter at hand... the divorce papers that would be filed the next day. She got up for more than a couple breaks - snacks, bathroom, etc and each time sat right back down as she had before; even a little closer.
> 
> There was no blaming, no anger, no frustration last night. I was calm. We finished reviewing the paperwork, I collected the signed documents, and I got off the couch. She then tried small talk and even joking a bit. I was not unkind or dismissive, but I was tired and didn't find it funny so I went to bed.
> 
> I slept well. Or as well as my back would allow on the upstairs couch. Better than I have in weeks.
> 
> Today after I filed I changed my FB status from married to "it's complicated". I also left a post:
> 
> "What was is over. What will be begins now. Bring it on! I'm ready."
> 
> This was not for her, even though I know she has been trolling my profile lately. This was for me - I am accepting the situation and letting my family and friends know where I'm at. After I heard her get up I left my upstairs office and went down to give her her copies and the acceptance/waiver of service form for her to notarize. She was at the computer crying - though she tried to hide it. I went outside and had lunch in the sun on the patio. I had gone to Subway and for the first time returned home with a 6" sub instead of a foot long for us to split.
> 
> She still hasn't selected an apartment, but I care less everyday. Not because I hope that her staying an extra day or two will give me another chance to convince her to stay longer. Rather because I am where I am and I'm headed somewhere, and a little excited about it! The process has begun no matter how she reacts.
> 
> It is easier for me to not be angry or devastated just by looking at her, because I am accepting that our love relationship is over and I am making plans for me and DD. I still get very sad and cry at times. But not around her - she can't comfort me because she is gone, even if still here physically. I'm on my own now, and find comfort in knowing that things can only get better from here.


how you holding up Zill?


----------



## zillard

Too Little Too Late? said:


> how you holding up Zill?


Ups and downs. I kept strong with the 180 last week but slipped this weekend and was beginning to consider R *way* too soon. I wrote about it here http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/63196-when-do-you-stop-180-consider-r.html

What can I say? I'm a sucker for tears and sex and she knows it. But this forum has helped me see through her manipulative tactics (even if they are unconscious they are manipulative as hell). 

She has been trying hard to reel me back in while her words say the opposite: 
Laying on the perfume thick (too much)
dolling herself up (and coming home on time)
wearing my button up shirts around the house
walking around in a towel (just to talk to me about nothing)
saying things like "dam you smell good"
leaving NIN Closer on the computer for me to see
bought me an Xmas gift ("something you said you wanted")
wearing my winter coat outside (hers fit fine)
non-stop small talk (more than ever)
calling me over to show me funny stuff on the computer
following ME around the house
wants to cook me Xmas dinner (moving out Sat)
wants to stay her Xmas eve (told her no)
wants to keep key to the house (told her no)
telling me every detail about her move prep (I get distracted)
asking my input on everything (I say "it's up to you")
I knock and she says come in, as she's stripping to shower
etc, etc.

But she knows what I require and is unwilling to:
1. share passwords
2. change shifts
3. go to MC together
4. prove NC with OM

stbxw is going to IC this week - first time ever in our marriage.
I continue mine - he's impressed with my progress.
D6 is on week 2 - her IC impressed too

I filed her acceptance of service today, starting the 60 days. She finally got it notarized last Friday. She chose an apartment the day I served her and her move in date is Sat. She hasn't packed so I bought boxes today and reserved a moving truck. If she hasn't used any by tomorrow I'll start filling them myself.


----------



## zillard

Oh My! 

I woke to find another email - trying to hash out details of her moving out. stbxw informed me that 3 or her work friends that I've never met (some that I exposed her lies to earlier) are willing to help move. 

She asked, "*Would you like the help* loading the truck? They will be there to help unload. I just didn't want to make things even more uncomfortable than they already will be. I'm confident we [her and I] can move the bed and couch by ourselves. We've done it before."

I waited for her to wake and told her that this is HER move. She shouldn't be worried about my comfort level as I'll be fine. 

I told her that I am willing to help but she needs to let ME know if/when/where she wants MY help. Also pointed out that she never even asked for my help but instead took my help for granted. 

Then a weird thing happened. She told me that she assumed I would be helping as I am the one that wanted divorce... she just wanted separation. LMAO. 

I remained calm. I pointed out that *I* originally suggested separation to work on the marriage but pulled it off the table when it was clear she wanted it so she could continue dating OM. Something she admitted last week. I reminded her that I had repeatedly told her I do not want divorce and she repeatedly told me, daily, "I'm done". She told me to fill out D papers. So I did.

So amazing how warped her thought process is. Not only has she re-written the history of our marriage, but now she is even re-writing events of the last 2 months in order to make herself believe that she never asked for D. 

Amazing.


----------



## soca70

zillard said:


> So amazing how warped her thought process is. Not only has she re-written the history of our marriage, but now she is even re-writing events of the last 2 months in order to make herself believe that she never asked for D.
> 
> Amazing.


Zillard, yes my STBXW has re-written the events of the last months as well. Like "not remebering" in our family therapy session telling me that I was under the impression that the kids and me were a "package deal" and that I was the one that forced HER to secure a rental apartment after she asked me to go live with my parents and I refused to leave our house. I even brought this up today with my IC and said I'm not sure she's even aware of what she's saying at this point.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> Then a weird thing happened. She told me that she assumed I would be helping as I am the one that wanted divorce... she just wanted separation. LMAO.
> 
> I remained calm. I pointed out that *I* originally suggested separation to work on the marriage but pulled it off the table when it was clear she wanted it so she could continue dating OM.


I KNOW this is coming my way. My STBXW wanted to separate..and I said no, here are the divorce papers. Heck Im sure she is telling all that i am the one who is driving the deal. Oh well....her issues not mine.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> I KNOW this is coming my way. My STBXW wanted to separate..and I said no, here are the divorce papers. Heck Im sure she is telling all that i am the one who is driving the deal. Oh well....her issues not mine.


yep, I think on some level she planned it this way from the beginning. Rather than getting a lawyer or filing herself, she pushed me to do it so later she could say, "see - HE divorced ME". 

I think she even had the affair to push me away rather than growing some balls and saying she wanted out. She knew that was one boundary I would not let her cross without consequences. 

And someday she's gonna try to spin the D this way to my daughter - telling her that I up and took her away from her. Oh well, she can. That's her choice. And I can choose to let D6 read the journal I've been keeping once she's old enough.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> yep, I think on some level she planned it this way from the beginning. Rather than getting a lawyer or filing herself, she pushed me to do it so later she could say, "see - HE divorced ME".
> 
> I think she even had the affair to push me away rather than growing some balls and saying she wanted out. She knew that was one boundary I would not let her cross without consequences.
> 
> And someday she's gonna try to spin the D this way to my daughter - telling her that I up and took her away from her. Oh well, she can. That's her choice. And I can choose to let D6 read the journal I've been keeping once she's old enough.


Oh yeah, here too. I have put together timelines and wrote down the conversation she had with OM for the purpose of telling her family (if i so choose) and my kids as to why their parents are no longer together. I imagine though, that with time, she will come around, grow up and maybe, just maybe, admit it was her doing. But I would think that takes time in both our cases.


----------



## StephenG

zillard said:


> To clarify - second time she was out all night she was with the same guy, and again stayed all night even though her girlfriend went home. Again I had to pry for each bit of info.
> 
> I told her that even if she is just watching movies with this guy, it still is not ok because she is not being upfront with me, she is lying by omission, she is repeating behavior that she knows hurts me, and she is breaking her promise to me in the process.
> 
> "I don't think it's a big deal, but I guess it is because it's a big deal for you."
> 
> Wow, I feel like she thinks that was an apology. This made me feel so small.



i'm going thru a separation with my wife but nothing like this but this is sounding how my parents are.

My mother was doing the same thing, coming home late and actually being out with OM and eventually she became emotionally attached and it got physical and it left my dad sitting alone and their marriage is broken to the point of no return.

Anytime there an OM or OW it's pretty hard because think about your first few dates with your wife and how you used to talk to her, you treated her like a queen and did your 100% best.
Well as time goes on the begins to slip, so now with this OM he is giving his 110% queen-treating to your wife, so you tell me which way she is going to lean towards


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah...in a fight we had in July, my wife told me that I dont "hang on her every word" like some husbands do. Uh, I dont know any couples that do that...so she must have meant the OM is hanging on her every word.


----------



## StephenG

And that seems about right, the OM will be "brown nosing" her.

If he parents are on your side then she has no one to talk to but who? OM. 
And what is the douche home wrecker do?? He agrees, throws in his input to try to win a battle between you and himself. 

Just start doing what is best for you and go dark with her and start loving, respecting, and appreciating yourself on a new slate

If she comes, she comes, if not it's her lose.
I've been going off this quote since my wife left me.


"Forgiveness is not the misguided act of condoning irresponsible, hurtful behavior. Nor is it a superficial turning of the other cheek that leaves us feeling victimized and martyred. Rather it is the finishing of old business that allows us to experience the present, free of contamination from the past." 
Joan Borysenko


----------



## toonaive

zillard said:


> Seriously thinking that I've been a codependent in denial living with a high functioning BPDer.


Exactly what I have been working with!! Although my STBxW no longer asks me for much of anything(Thankfully). Im anticipating some upcoming holiday manipulation in the works.


----------



## zillard

StephenG said:


> And that seems about right, the OM will be "brown nosing" her.
> 
> If he parents are on your side then she has no one to talk to but who? OM.
> And what is the douche home wrecker do?? He agrees, throws in his input to try to win a battle between you and himself.
> 
> Just start doing what is best for you and go dark with her and start loving, respecting, and appreciating yourself on a new slate
> 
> If she comes, she comes, if not it's her lose.


Really don't know that I'd let her come back. My heart still says maybe but my head says f-NO. Don't know how I'd ever be completely comfortable with her again after all she's said and done. 

She begged me not to get agro with OM. For a bit I thought about doing something stupid but he doesn't deserve any more attention from me. If she wants to leave and go shag a pill-poppin, truant community college student in his 30s with a psycho babymama, more power to her! 

Funny thing is he's been turning down HER requests to go out! lmao. He got what he wanted and doesn't want her drama. Or he's just scared of me and waiting til I'm out of the picture. Either one is fine by me. She bragged to him "I don't have to pay child support". he said, "that's cool.... I guess". :rofl:


----------



## zillard

So today stbxw and I went to the bank and signed our Consent Decree and got it notarized. 

Now it sits on my desk until the 60 days is up (can't file until waiting period is over in this county). 

60 days is up....dun dun dun... on Valentine's Day! Which also happens to be my birthday! haha. 

She's been apologizing profusely for the timing. I ignored it. Then I asked if she would take the day off work on B/Vday. She said she could. I said good, cause I need her to watch D6 so I can go out!

:smthumbup:


----------



## HappyKaty

Z -

Weren't you my hero that served her on her birthday?

If so, your heroism was just magnified by that most recent post.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> Z -
> 
> Weren't you my hero that served her on her birthday?
> 
> If so, your heroism was just magnified by that most recent post.


That was Garry, but I'll be your hero too.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> That was Garry, but I'll be your hero too.


You're my newest. 

Keep up the good work.


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## Garry2012

I feel slighted....haha


----------



## Garry2012

Thats too funny...i was going to put down that i was going out on Vday (on the joint calendar)...so she had to watch the kids. haha


----------



## HappyKaty

Garry2012 said:


> I feel slighted....haha


No worries, Garry.

I will forever admire the fact that you served her on her birthday. 

It makes my heart all warm.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Thats too funny...i was going to put down that i was going out on Vday (on the joint calendar)...so she had to watch the kids. haha


Do it man! stbxw just confirmed that she took it off. 

whoo-hoo!


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> I feel slighted....haha


Yeah, we're no longer willing to share, are we Garry.


----------



## Garry2012

Nope...haha


----------



## zillard

So last night after story time I was singing a few songs to put my D6 to bed, part of our daddy-daughter nightly routine. (Keep in mind her child psych told us not to break news of the out-of-state move yet... to let her process the D and mom moving out for a bit).

She interrupted and said, "Dad, now our family is going to be more cut up than it already is."

"What do you mean cut up?"

D6, "You and Mom will live in different houses."

"Yes, we will. What do you mean 'more than it already is'?"

D6, "Everybody else lives [out of state]." 

My big extended family is a few states over and stbxw is estranged from hers. I asked how she felt about all this and she said it would be nice if we all lived in the same place. I said we can't all live in the same place as mom just got a new apartment. 

D6, "What if we moved [out of state] and mom stayed here? I'd miss her more but I'd get to see [listed all her cousins, etc] all the time."

So sad, but I think this is good. She's already thinking about it, without us saying anything, which will make the news of the move easier to process. Earlier in the year we were discussing moving there as a family so that's probably what planted the seed. 

My daughter is so awesome and smart! Best thing I've ever done. For that I will never regret my marriage. And I will always resent my stbxw for giving up.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> My daughter is so awesome and smart! Best thing I've ever done. For that I will never regret my marriage. And I will always resent my stbxw for giving up.


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## zillard

WTF?

Her move out date is Saturday and she still hasn't packed a thing! I continue 180 but had to reserve a moving truck and buy boxes simply because she hasn't. 

Maybe she's thinking she can pack everything AND move it all on Saturday because I'll help? And I will, but for 2 reasons - I can't have her here any longer the way she is and it will be good for D6 to see us cooperating through the move. I've packed a few boxes with D6 so she can feel a part of the move but hate the fact that stbxw seems to be relying on me to do it all and taking my help for granted. 

I have plans to go out Sat night after the move with a good friend from HS that I haven't seen in years because stbxw hated that he's a ladies man. And I gave in - stupid. He's a fitness instructor and single and I need that kind of friend right now to kick my butt into gear (with fitness and adjusting to single life). 

Should I keep packing her crap? If I don't I feel I'll have to do it all Saturday anyway. That or she'll get overwhelmed and try to push the move date back. Which will cause more tension that D6 will pick up on and disappoint her as she's really excited to go see "their" apt and stay with mom that night to help her unpack.


----------



## zillard

Well, D6 and I now have the house to ourselves. D6 is returning today after first 2 nights at mom's (thought it would be good for her to get familiar with the place and help mom unpack in order to feel part of the move rather than it being something that happened TO her). 

Been very busy shopping to replace things. Bought a new bed, pillows, new pots and pans, etc. Still a lot of things to do. Little stuff that I am trying hard not to let bug me too much, like deep cleaning the master bath that was left... less than clean. Rearranging furniture to balance out the empty voids. Restocking the pantry and fridge. Etc. 

I removed stbxw from my Facebook yesterday. It would be a good place to swap D6 pics, but will be too tempting to go over her profile and see what she's been up to and with whom. It's none of my business anymore, and vice versa. Email and snail mail will be just fine for photo swaps and be more fun for D6 anyway. 

Received 11 texts from her yesterday (most in 1 day since I can remember), including one at 2:30 am this morning. Going to politely respond today that I'd appreciate zero late night texts unless it a D6 emergency. I previously told her of my NC wishes so she is slipping info about D6 into nearly each one. Most don't ask me anything at all, just describing her and D6's day, etc. I'm replying to those but just acknowledgement of D6 portion. Short and to the point. No filler but not rude.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Care to give a few examples?


----------



## zillard

UpnOver said:


> Care to give a few examples?


I don't think [D6] is feeling well. She woke crying and went back to sleep. Woke again 15 minutes ago then zonked again".

me - I wouldn't be surprised if it's just emotional.

We are making cookies for Santa.

me - K

She said she doesn't feel good. 

me - K. U can bring her back tomorrow if you want.

She said she wants to stay here. I'll bring her by in the a.m. 

me - Ok.

Do you have a cable that connects the tv to the wall?

me - Many.

(I'm not giving her one though until she properly asks for one.)


----------



## lee101981

Maybe she is feeling alone and wants to be close to someone.;


----------



## 06Daddio08

Those can all be ignored.

If you have established NC with emergencies only.

Offering the instant opportunity for you to have your child back because they don't feel well will only spawn more contact on your exes behalf.

Making yourself available too easily.

That isn't on her.

That's on you.


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> Maybe she is feeling alone and wants to be close to someone.;


D6 or stbxw?


----------



## zillard

UpnOver said:


> Those can all be ignored.
> 
> If you have established NC with emergencies only.
> 
> Offering the instant opportunity for you to have your child back because they don't feel well will only spawn more contact on your exes behalf.
> 
> Making yourself available too easily.
> 
> That isn't on her.
> 
> That's on you.


Well, I told her I wanted NC unless it's D6 related. But now wish to step that up to specify no late night contact unless emergency. 

But you are right. None of the D6 texts asked me a question so should have been ignored. And the others ignored completely. Still learning.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> Well, I told her I wanted NC unless it's D6 related. But now wish to step that up to specify no late night contact unless emergency.
> 
> But you are right. None of the D6 texts asked me a question so should have been ignored. And the others ignored completely. *Still learning.*


Of course you are.

We all are.

No late night calls should be default knowledge to the NC rule.


----------



## lee101981

stbxw


----------



## zillard

UpnOver said:


> Of course you are.
> 
> We all are.
> 
> No late night calls should be default knowledge to the NC rule.


Good point. Sucks to wake to the phone chiming at 2:30 am to find a meaningless text from her. Not conducive to a good nights sleep. But hate turning my ringer off in case of an emergency.


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> stbxw


Yes, but she'll have to live with her choice to be alone. And I need to do better at enforcing NC (on my end).


----------



## lee101981

Just make sure you watch your tone and the way you come across to her, you dont want to push her to were she wont contact you at all even it is and emergency..


----------



## 06Daddio08

Say less.

Less is more.


----------



## staystrong

Do you do a "summary" of things when you make an exchange? For example, "D6 was sick so she needs to take these meds, she did her homework up to page ten, if you can spare a cable I would appreciate, ...". 

It seems like that would rule out the need for a stream of texts and you could always say "Just put it in the summary." if she slips. 

Just a thought. I'm thinking ahead to next month when my STBXW and I will be putting an arrangement into practice.


----------



## zillard

staystrong said:


> Do you do a "summary" of things when you make an exchange? For example, "D6 was sick so she needs to take these meds, she did her homework up to page ten, if you can spare a cable I would appreciate, ...".
> 
> It seems like that would rule out the need for a stream of texts and you could always say "Just put it in the summary." if she slips.
> 
> Just a thought. I'm thinking ahead to next month when my STBXW and I will be putting an arrangement into practice.


That would be better... when doing the physical exchange of the child. By not responding to strings of future texts, it should naturally work out that way - even without me telling her how. Enforcing my boundaries will "train" her how to communicate with me. 

If I tell her how to do it she won't listen anyway. I already said NC unless D6 related and she's already choosing to not respect that. *By responding at all when she does break it, I show her that I am not serious about my boundaries.*


----------



## zillard

Three more texts last night. 

10:10 pm "Is D6 still up?"

Of course she isn't. I already told stbxw she'd be in bed by the time she got off work. Plus she's sick. If she wanted to say goodnight she should have called on her lunch break. Didn't respond. She called at 10:24pm. Didn't answer. Waited a bit and responded, "Nope". 

11:20 pm "You seriously unfriended me on fb?"

Didn't respond.

5:43 am "If the boxes aren't gone by next week I'm disposing of them"

Didn't respond.

She was supposed to be here by the time D6 woke up so we could do Xmas together. Is now 8:20am and she's not here. D6 will wake at any moment and if stbxw was still up stewing over FB then she probably went to bed drunk and won't be here anytime soon. 

Excellent. I'll still have fun though. D6 and I will make our famous blueberry pancakes together!

Merry Christmas everyone. There ARE things to smile about!


----------



## zillard

20 texts about D6's wellbeing since stbxw moved out Saturday. 

Texts/questions about D6's wellbeing in the last 3 months (while only seeing her 1/2hr/day)? Half that.

She asked me at Christmas yesterday why I'm ignoring her texts. I said I understand how you can see it that way, but I'm simply enforcing my boundaries. 

She asked me why I unfriended her on FB. I told her I haven't felt respected like a friend.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> 20 texts about D6's wellbeing since stbxw moved out Saturday.
> 
> Texts/questions about D6's wellbeing in the last 3 months (while only seeing her 1/2hr/day)? Half that.
> 
> She asked me at Christmas yesterday why I'm ignoring her texts. I said I understand how you can see it that way, but I'm simply enforcing my boundaries.
> 
> She asked me why I unfriended her on FB. I told her I haven't felt respected like a friend.


Zillard.

You do not owe her an explanation.

The more you explain.

The more she will use it against you a later date.


----------



## zillard

UpnOver said:


> Zillard.
> 
> You do not owe her an explanation.
> 
> The more you explain.
> 
> The more she will use it against you a later date.


I've always seen it as rude to ignore a face-to-face, direct question. 

How can "I understand how you feel that way" or "Sorry you feel that way" work when the question doesn't involve how she feels?

should I use "I choose not to answer that question" or something similar?


----------



## zillard

Or just remain silent and walk away?


----------



## lee101981

I wish that I was better at doing that....


----------



## zillard

Received a 5:21am email from stbxw:

"Sometimes my words don't work. But the words of others do."

[provided me with a link to a song and included these lyrics]

I have been completely unable to maintain any semblance of relationship on any level
I have been a bastard to the people who have actively attempted to deliver me from peril
I have been acutely undeserving of the ear that listened up and lip that kissed me on the temple
I have been accustomed to a stubborn disposition that admits it wishes it's history disassembled
I have been a hypocrite in sermonizing tolerance while skimming for a ministry to pretzel
I have been unfairly resentful of those I wish that acted different when the bidding was essential
I have been a terrible communicator prone to isolation over sympathy for devils
I have been my own worst enemy since the very genesis of rebels

Today I pulled three ghost crabs out of rock and sand, where the low tide showcased a promised land.
I told them "you will grow to be something dynamic and impressive; you are patient you are gallant you are festive."
Then I let them go

-----------

My response - that I will not be sending. Posting here to get it out of me.

While I appreciate the sentiment and your attempt to communicate with me, I can only take it for what it is. I am in my thirties and I deserve - and need - people in my life who are able to communicate their feelings directly to me. 

I want to know how YOU feel, relative to me. Not how you feel, relative to how some artist feels, relative to some unknown person. I deserve someone who has enough composure and emotional stability to be able to use her own words. Cutting and pasting song lyrics to describe what is in your heart and mind is childish and F&*^n lazy. 

Reading these lyrics makes me see that you feel terribly guilty for what you have done. But still not enough or YOU would say it without a proxy. And I still see no remorse - from you or the artist. Only guilt and shame. "I" statements and how your guilt affects you - still no focus on how your actions affect others. 

Just like the artist, you are still completely selfish. You both see yourselves as saviors and martyrs - only by exiting the lives of others will the others be capable of happiness, which makes you feel better about yourselves. Without any work to repair the damage that you've caused. Selfish. 

It is clear that you view yourself as completely worthless. That is so terribly heartbreaking because I know that you are not. But as long as you do... you ARE worthless for me. No benefit. No quid pro quo. No partner. No friend. No lover. No spouse. 

As I've told you many times in the past - you're biggest weakness is not knowing how strong you really are. I love you and I hope some day you can see your own strength and kick your own a$$ into gear. For YOU. Not for anyone else. 

We stood together once on the same patch of ground. And I know we both loved it. I am not letting you go. You already walked away. What I am doing is letting myself acknowledge that, turn my back on the footprints where you once stood, and walk away too. If you ever choose to turn around and follow me, I would probably enjoy your company. But I don't know that I'll ever hold your hand again.


----------



## zillard

It's sad that some of the basic communication rules that we teach our kids as toddlers (and they pick up on quickly) completely escape some adults. 

If you want someone to listen, speak up and use your words.

If you want someone to help, ask politely.


----------



## lee101981

It is funny what some adults lose as they grow older...Some basic communication skills...


----------



## NotEZ

Communication was the downfall in my relationship too... on both sides. Add to that depression caused by the circumstances we were both dealing with (separately) and we ended up here. Its funny too, because in chats we've had since, its clear we both wanted the same things and neither of us knew how to express it so we worked against each other in hopes of reaching the same goal. Didn't work, needless to say.


----------



## zillard

So funny story. 

While stbxw was here making xmas dinner "for D6", D6 fell asleep. She was sick. Not the funny part. Keep reading.

Dinner's ready to eat but kiddo just zonked. stbxw doesn't want to leave without eating with D6 and saying goodbye. So rather than sit in awkward silence and to try to prevent an argument genius me decides to throw in one of the movies I rented. 

*Savages. *

Man, I should've paid more attention to the trailer. 
Awkward silence exponentially compounded. 

Oi. :slap:


----------



## zillard

Just dropped off D6 at stbxw's apartment. 

She was all dolled up and started right away with the small talk - telling me about her work, pay etc. Gave short replies, "that's good", "cool" and diverted conversation back to D6 and her return time. 

Stbxw asked what the plan was for NYE. 

z- What do you mean?

x- "Do you want me to come over after work?"

z- D6 will be in bed by then. 

x- "Not at 8. I get off early"

z- Probably not.

She was visibly disappointed. Too bad. I'm not pretending and celebrating as a "family" like we did for Christmas. Especially not for a holiday that isn't about kids. 

Thinking of sending her a text with the following:

"If you would like to celebrate NYE with D6 I'm happy to drop her off at your place at 8."

D6 needs more time with her mom. And I could use the time celebrating with friends.

Should I send? Maybe I should at least wait until later or tomorrow.


----------



## ReGroup

Good job Z; showing that type of discipline on the spot. I think I would have frozen and then cave. 

She's probably flipping out right now. I'd send the text in a couple of hours - if you want to spend NYE with your friends; you don't want to give her too much time in case she wants to make plans of her own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Damit! Sent the text and gave up D6 for NYE. 

Now the single friend who promised a table at a specific club for the celebration went and bought tickets without warning me to an exclusive event that is now sold out. 

Oh well, guess this just forces me to face my fears and head out to NYE celebrations by myself. We'll see what happens.


----------



## zillard

Ok, so I reserved a hotel room downtown near the big block party celebration. Fortunately, this is also pretty close to stbxw's apartment so I can:

drop off D6
checkin at the hotel
get a cab to the block party
have a blast and meet some new people
cab back to hotel
sleep
pickup D6
head home. 

Only problem is leaving the dog alone at home. 

Stbxw came by and dropped off D6 a bit ago. She noticed the new threads I was wearing (went out yesterday and bought a bunch of new clothes). She thanked me for my willingness to drop off and pick up D6 and was in a decent mood. 

I asked if she would take the dog along with D6 tomorrow night. I did not divulge my plans, but told that if she did then she and D6 could sleep in New Years morning. If not I would have to pickup D6 early and hurry home to let the dog out. This made her aware that I was not planning on staying home tomorrow night. 

Sudden mood shift. "Fine. Whatever." and started walking out of the house. She then turned around and gave D6 hugs and kisses and left all grumpy. It was pouring rain out so I told her to drive safe. She left without another word. 

Tried not to but couldn't help from wondering what made her grumpy. Was it the fact that I will not be staying home all alone NYE? Or the fact that I am planning on celebrating without her? Or did she realize me letting her have D6 wasn't just to be nice to her?

Whichever it was... oh well. I'm going to make sure I have a good time.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> Tried not to but couldn't help from wondering what made her grumpy. Was it the fact that I will not be staying home all alone NYE? Or the fact that I am planning on celebrating without her? Or did she realize me letting her have D6 wasn't just to be nice to her?


Question answered. Just received a text "I feel like the only reason you're letting me have D6 on NYE is because you made last minute plans". 

I might respond later, "sorry you feel that way". Or if she's reading this I won't have to. Eerie how the text came right after I posted.


----------



## ReGroup

Can't win with these people. They put us in this position - they get what they ask for and are still unhappy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lee101981

zillard said:


> Question answered. Just received a text "I feel like the only reason you're letting me have D6 on NYE is because you made last minute plans".
> 
> I might respond later, "sorry you feel that way". Or if she's reading this I won't have to. Eerie how the text came right after I posted.


Does she know about this site?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> Can't win with these people. They put us in this position - they get what they ask for and are still unhappy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Right. If she wants to celebrate with D6, does it really matter why I let her? 

Just got another:

"And then you expect me to care for your dog, to make things more convenient for you. But you won't respond to these texts anyway. I'm trying to convey my feelings in a non-confrontational way. I'm trying really hard."

Funny part is... I never wanted a dog. Hated having the first one we had that died as I had to do all the work and didn't want one to begin with. Then she begged and begged for a new one, so I got her one but made her promise to take care of it. Now I'm left with it and it's "my dog". :rofl:


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> Does she know about this site?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is one of many she saw in the browser history when I was first scrambling for answers. Not sure she's been reading it though as she probably would've tried to explain away certain things I written.


----------



## lee101981

zillard said:


> It is one of many she saw in the browser history when I was first scrambling for answers. Not sure she's been reading it though as she probably would've tried to explain away certain things I written.


Would she know zillard is you ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Not by the name but would be easy enough to figure out based on what I write.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lee101981

She would have a lot of reading to do!
Do u even care?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Plus the pic is an illo I drew. She knows it. Put it up with my age and location as soon as I realized I don't care if she reads it. Reading my posts wouldn't hurt. She'd see I care about her but am trying to move on and why.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lee101981

zillard said:


> Plus the pic is an illo I drew. She knows it. Put it up with my age and location as soon as I realized I don't care if she reads it. Reading my posts wouldn't hurt. She'd see I care about her but am trying to move on and why.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 can't wait to be in a better place!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Now she's texting me that she won't take the dog. Hates it. It's my responsibility. I'm just trying to get back at her. etc. etc. 

It's projection as she is clearly backing out of her agreement to take the dog tomorrow night just to try and throw a wrinkle in my plans. 

Oh well. The dog will have plenty of food and water and will be fine. Worst thing that'll happen is I'll have to clean a puddle off the tile. And if he goes on the carpet... no biggie - she left the shampooer. A little cleaning won't ruin my day!


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Now she's texting me that she won't take the dog. Hates it. It's my responsibility. I'm just trying to get back at her. etc. etc.


Awww.

Her feelings are hurt, because you're gonna have fun without her.

Poor baby.


----------



## lee101981

Gosh u are so mean to move on, what are u thinking ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> Awww.
> 
> Her feelings are hurt, because you're gonna have fun without her.
> 
> Poor baby.


This is really getting to her. Some of the texts that came in last night:

You did not want her [D6] to be with me for NYE, then hours later you changed your tune. Am I going to have to deal with that during every visitation time?

Does this make you feel powerful? In control?

I apologize for trying to express my feelings. I hope they didn't interrupt your peaceful evening like the texts and call you failed to respond to. I'm very sorry.

I'll bring D6 back [New years day] when I'm ready and we're both awake. Thank you for giving me so many options. You're truly generous. 

------

So bitter and sarcastic! Obviously she is more concerned with me going out and not responding to her texts than anything. Otherwise *why complain about getting more time with D6*?

Unreal. Seems like I might be hitting that point where I'm starting to pass her up on detaching.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> This is really getting to her. Some of the texts that came in last night:
> 
> You did not want her [D6] to be with me for NYE, then hours later you changed your tune. Am I going to have to deal with that during every visitation time?
> 
> Does this make you feel powerful? In control?
> 
> I apologize for trying to express my feelings. I hope they didn't interrupt your peaceful evening like the texts and call you failed to respond to. I'm very sorry.
> 
> I'll bring D6 back [New years day] when I'm ready and we're both awake. Thank you for giving me so many options. You're truly generous.
> 
> ------
> 
> So bitter and sarcastic! *Obviously she is* more concerned with me going out and not responding to her texts than anything. Otherwise ]why complain about getting more time with D6?
> 
> Unreal. Seems like I might be hitting that point where I'm starting to pass her up on detaching.


Keep yourself clear of thinking in that direction.


----------



## lee101981

Just keep focusing on u and ur daughter!
You are doing great!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Progression: A movement or development toward a destination or a more advanced state, esp. gradually or in stages.

Excited to see myself this time next year!


----------



## zillard

I need advice. 

As I posted earlier I let stbxw have D6 for NYE. She was supposed to bring her back today after they woke up. 

"I'll bring [D6] back when I'm ready and we're both awake".

It is now past 7pm. I resent her text above with a question mark.

She responded: "She wants to watch an episode spongebob that starts right now. Then we'll head out. We didn't wake until after two anyway." 

Then it will be a 45 min drive. 

I see this as unacceptable. I have the right to know when to expect my daughter home. Unsure what to say to her about this.


----------



## zillard

I think she is trying to get a rise out of me. I want to enforce my boundaries but at the same time don't want to give her the satisfaction of seeing me upset about this.

How do I do this in regards to cooperative parenting time? 

"I'd appreciate it if you kept her word in regards to D6"?

"I have a right to know when to expect D6. Please respect that."?

Or keep my trap shut, record it, and file an amendment to the custody agreement if she keeps it up?


----------



## 06Daddio08

You guys have a legal custody agreement?


----------



## zillard

UpnOver said:


> You guys have a legal custody agreement?


Yes. I have D6 weekdays. She has D6 Saturday nights. Some holidays specified, the rest "as both parties agree". Signed and notarized by both and filed with D petition. Acceptance of service signed, notarized and filed and final decree signed and notarized (but can't file that until Feb). 

So much for the NY dinner I cooked for D6. It will be bed time when she gets here. 

Thinking of giving stbxw some of the ham to take home with a smile and then telling her that if she cannot keep her agreements with D6 then I will file an amendment.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> Yes. I have D6 weekdays. She has D6 Saturday nights. Some holidays specified, the rest "as both parties agree". Signed and notarized by both and filed with D petition. Acceptance of service signed and notarized and final decree signed and notarized (but can't file that until Feb).
> 
> So much for the NY dinner I cooked for D6. It will be bed time when she gets here.
> 
> Thinking of giving stbxw some of the ham to take home with a smile and then telling her that if she cannot keep her agreements with D6 then I will file an amendment.


No point in the ham and fake smiles.

This was an agreement you two had within the "as both parties agree" section of the custody agreement.

Correct?

If so.

From this point on do not make such agreements with her.

Is there anything within your agreement to the extent of 'the other parent gets first offerings' for watching your child when the other parent cannot after "x" amount of hours?


----------



## zillard

UpnOver said:


> No point in the ham and fake smiles.
> 
> This was an agreement you two had within the "as both parties agree" section of the custody agreement.
> 
> Correct?
> 
> If so.
> 
> From this point on do not make such agreements with her.
> 
> Is there anything within your agreement to the extent of 'the other parent gets first offerings' for watching your child when the other parent cannot after "x" amount of hours?


Correct. This is "as agreed" category. 

There are also the following lines:

"Each parent agrees to consider the other parent as care-provider for the minor child before making other arrangements"

"If either parent is unable to follow through with the time-sharing arrangements involving the minor child, that parent will notify the other parent as soon as possible".

"Both parents agree to exert their best efforts to work cooperatively in future plans consistent with the best interests of the minor child and to amicably resolve such disputes as they arise."


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> Correct. This is "as agreed" category.
> 
> There are also the following lines:
> 
> "Each parent agrees to consider the other parent as care-provider for the minor child before making other arrangements"
> 
> "If either parent is unable to follow through with the time-sharing arrangements involving the minor child, that parent will notify the other parent as soon as possible".
> 
> "Both parents agree to exert their best efforts to work cooperatively in future plans consistent with the best interests of the minor child and to amicably resolve such disputes as they arise."


Stop making special arrangements outside of what you are legally obligated to do.

If this is how it's going to go down.

Don't put yourself in that situation any longer.


----------



## zillard

UpnOver said:


> Stop making special arrangements outside of what you are legally obligated to do.
> 
> If this is how it's going to go down.
> 
> Don't put yourself in that situation any longer.


See that's where I have a hangup though. D6's best interests are to have as much time with mom as possible. Especially since I'm moving with her out of state in a few months. 

If I do not let that happen am I not breaking the last line posted?


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> See that's where I have a hangup though. D6's best interests are to have as much time with mom as possible. Especially since I'm moving with her out of state in a few months.
> 
> If I do not let that happen am I not breaking the last line posted?


But I also see that if stbxw is not cooperative, which she is not today, best interests for D6 could be for me to avoid these situations that could create conflict.


----------



## 06Daddio08

The courts have it so your daughter sees her already right?


----------



## zillard

UpnOver said:


> The courts have it so your daughter sees her already right?


True. 1 night a week until we move away, then much less. But that is what stbxw agreed upon and signed.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> True. 1 night a week until we move away, then much less. But that is what stbxw agreed upon and signed.


Exactly.


----------



## lee101981

Where r u moving to?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> Well, I told her I wanted NC unless it's D6 related. But now wish to step that up to specify no late night contact unless emergency.
> 
> But you are right. None of the D6 texts asked me a question so should have been ignored. And the others ignored completely. Still learning.


 You can tell her all you want, but until YOU are willing to act according to your beliefs, she has no reason to adhere to your wishes. Are you ready to hang up on her if she brings up something other than an emergency?


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> You can tell her all you want, but until YOU are willing to act according to your beliefs, she has no reason to adhere to your wishes. Are you ready to hang up on her if she brings up something other than an emergency?


Yes. She has called a couple times on her lunch break to say good night to D6. I accept call, put on speaker phone, hand to D6 and hang up as soon as they finish good nights. Without ever saying a word to stbxw. Calls at all other times are ignored. 

When dropping off D6, stbxw starts small talk every time - telling me about maintenance guys replacing her dishwasher, etc. I say "mmm hmm" or nod, say my goodbye to D6 and leave. 

Edit - I do give a summary on D6 upon arriving. Like she had this med at this time, here is her Rx, she wanted to bring this to play with, etc.


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> Where r u moving to?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My hometown for family support for D6 and I. No family here anymore.


----------



## zillard

She dropped off D6 like nothing was wrong. 

I had to immediately start D6 on her daily asthma treatment - I had not packed it as she was to be home much earlier. stbxw didn't even mention the treatment when dropping her off, I just did it. 

My D papers were out from when I was typing up those lines earlier. stbxw noticed them so I asked her to read the line about notifying other spouse as soon as possible if a problem with agreement. 

She said there was no specific time agreed upon so it didn't matter. 

I stated that there will be a specific time from now on and she led me to believe she'd be bringing D6 home after they awoke and got ready, not at bedtime. Otherwise I would've packed the asthma medicine like usual. Told her I'd appreciate it if she kept her agreements.

She left in a huff, leaving behind her mail and a few other items. 

I did not fake smile or give her ham - did not get mean or angry either. Just clearly stated what I felt needed to be said.


----------



## zillard

I had my IC session today via telephone as D6 is still on vacation from school. Popped in a movie for her and secluded myself in my home office for the session. 

It was a good session. Encouraging and my IC confirmed that I am making a lot of healthy decisions but pointed out many things I still need to work on (which is good). 

He confirmed that I am doing the right thing by standing my ground with visitation (which is good to hear from him as he does a lot of work for the family court in regards to custody evaluations). He pretty much reiterated what Up said about not agreeing to extra time if stbxw is not honoring agreements. 

We went over many of the apology emails and texts that my stbxw has sent me recently and moreso my conflicted feelings about them. Based on his recommendation I sat down and wrote a response to my stbxw and sent it off. I know many here will disagree and tell me to stick to NC & 180, but this was not me initiating contact. Due to the volume of communication that she has been sending and unprecedented attempt to disclose her feelings and apologize, a response should be ok. Not required... definitely not, but ok. He even helped guide me on the content. 

I realize that this is a setback to my NC, but I feel the benefits to me outweigh that.

I chose the email that she sent with the song lyrics to reply to. Fairly short and to the point. A validation of her feelings but encouragement that she is not broken beyond repair as she claims. And finally reaffirming my needs and desire for a happy life, followed with a goodbye. I do feel better after sending it. It should help me get rid of my doubts about whether or not I effectively communicated to her what I required for R before I finalize the D and leave the state for good with my daughter. It should also help me know that I did what I could, enabling me to re-enter the dating world with fewer conflicted feelings. This is what I sent:

-------

While these lyrics do seem to be an accurate representation of your coping mechanisms, the way in which you cope does not define you as a person. In the many years that we spent together you did do many of these things some of the time, but not all the time. Take the first line for example. You have been able to maintain a relationship. We had many good years together where you were mostly an excellent wife and mother. Our relationship has lasted longer than those of almost everybody I know. I am confident that you can overcome these things. You are perfectly capable of growing and becoming a happy individual who is comfortable with herself and others.

I also am not perfect and have not always been a good husband. I understand and acknowledge my own unhealthy coping mechanisms and communication issues. I have made a decision to face these and work on becoming a healthier individual who is capable of maintaining a happier, more fulfilling and loving relationship. I began this journey in order to try and be a person that you would enjoy being with. It would have been great to take that journey together, but you have made it perfectly clear that you are unwilling. So I will continue my journey, for me, regardless of your decision to give up on our marriage. 

The only things that I required of you can be boiled down to two things: completely recommit to the relationship and prove to me that you are willing to rebuild trust. Without those things, I need to say farewell.

I wish you well in life.
Z.

--------

Ok, now let loose the 2x4s.


----------



## ReGroup

No 2x4's here. If it made you feel better - more power to you. The email reads like your beginning to empower yourself more than anything else.

Job well done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## K.C.

Off course I am till farly close to the start rather than end of dealing with my separation so take it for what it's worth on that basis but that seems pretty well worded to me. It reads to me not begging or even particularly inviting for R but simply an affirmation of your stance.

I don't think any of this can be a science, if it makes you feel better about your individual future then good for you.


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> When dropping off D6, stbxw starts small talk every time - telling me about maintenance guys replacing her dishwasher


The next time she does this, hold your hand up (stop sign) and say "stbx, I'm not your friend any more. You fired me. We have nothing to talk about except D6." And then leave.


----------



## turnera

That was a decent letter. Now follow it up with what I just suggested, when she tries to initiate contact again.


----------



## ReGroup

turnera, I need to learn how to put up that Stop Sign as well.


----------



## Garry2012

me too. Now i just walk away and barely if at all comment..she seems to get annoyed by that..as if we are still happily married


----------



## turnera

My IC literally TOLD me to use it. In front of my H. She said when he does what he's not supposed to do, stick out your hand, palm facing him, and say what you need to say. She said it's VERY visual and very effective - instinctual, if you will.


----------



## HappyKaty

My IC also suggested the same hand gesture, and it is highly effective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Got a response from stbxw, but she will not get another from me. I said my farewell.

"I can't give you what you need until I can be happy with myself. I'm working on that. I'm very sorry that I can't be what you need, and that you can't be what I need right now. I truly am. I'm also working on my flaws, my deficits, my defects. I hope that eventually the two of us can be in the same room without tension. I hope that we can both grow to meet our full potential as individuals. I hope that what we learn will help us to be the best parents that we can to [D6]. She's more important than either of us. 

"I wish you well in life as well. I hope one day you find what you need. I'm not that, and I'm sorry to say it. I really am."

---------

It must suck to be someone who can't/won't be committed and trustworthy. 

I can and am and don't need any growth or time whatsoever to be those things. It's just who I am. 

I am mostly happy with myself - just not my situation. Why put happiness off? I can make happiness now and create a better situation. 

I have everything that I need already... me.


----------



## 06Daddio08

A person should never 'need' anyone.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Got a response from stbxw, but she will not get another from me. I said my farewell.
> 
> "I can't give you what you need until I can be happy with myself. I'm working on that. I'm very sorry that I can't be what you need, and that you can't be what I need right now. I truly am. I'm also working on my flaws, my deficits, my defects. I hope that eventually the two of us can be in the same room without tension. I hope that we can both grow to meet our full potential as individuals. I hope that what we learn will help us to be the best parents that we can to [D6]. She's more important than either of us.
> 
> "I wish you well in life as well. I hope one day you find what you need. I'm not that, and I'm sorry to say it. I really am."
> 
> ---------
> 
> It must suck to be someone who can't/won't be committed and trustworthy.
> 
> I can and am and don't need any growth or time whatsoever to be those things. It's just who I am.
> 
> I am mostly happy with myself - just not my situation. Why put happiness off? I can make happiness now and create a better situation.
> 
> I have everything that I need already... me.


To quote Batman. 

You are the man a good woman deserves. But not the one it "needs" right now. Shesh.


----------



## hope4family

UpnOver said:


> A person should never 'need' anyone.


A good point. You need to want to be married, commited, ect. Oh well, i'm not entirely sure.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> You are the man a good woman deserves.


And I deserve a good woman who doesn't need me, or anyone else, in order to be happy.


----------



## zillard

I just got an email from stbxw's elderly grandparents. They have requested that I make the 5 hour trip to their house so they can visit with D6 before I move with her out of state. 

I need to think on this for a while before deciding whether or not to respond, and how. They cannot travel due to health reasons and recent hospitalizations. 

The codependent nice guy in me wants to do it. But the new man I am becoming is saying no. Loudly. On one hand it is telling that they have asked me rather than stbxw. On the other, it is no longer my responsibility to maintain their relationship with their GGD6... that falls on the stbxw's shoulders. 

I have plenty of responsibilities of my own taking care of myself and D6, maintaining a career, prepping the house for sale and getting ready for the big move. If stbxw wants her grandparents to see D6, she should make the trip when she has D6. 

If not, it will not be a big loss for D6. She's only met them twice anyway.


----------



## turnera

It will mean a lot to a couple of very old people who probably think about D6 daily and wish they saw her more. Don't punish them just because of their selfish granddaughter. And I'll wager it will leave you feeling good.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> It will mean a lot to a couple of very old people who probably think about D6 daily and wish they saw her more. Don't punish them just because of their selfish granddaughter. And I'll wager it will leave you feeling good.


That is a good point. Need to think on this more.


----------



## hope4family

Zillard, I must urge you to slightly reconsider that thought. Nice guy or no, great grandparents do not have rights. The DD great grandparents did not force any of this upon you. Saying that its "not your problem" while certainly having a ring of truth, is not entirely becoming of a fit parent. They didn't decide this either.

However, if you just plain cannot do it for logical reasons. I think that's perfectly understandable seeing as you got a lot on your plate.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Zillard, I must urge you to slightly reconsider that thought. Nice guy or no, great grandparents do not have rights. The DD great grandparents did not force any of this upon you. Saying that its "not your problem" while certainly having a ring of truth, is not entirely becoming of a fit parent. They didn't decide this either.
> 
> However, if you just plain cannot do it for logical reasons. I think that's perfectly understandable seeing as you got a lot on your plate.


It's a tricky situation logistically. 

Stbxw has D6 on Saturday nights. I would have to do this during the week and take PTO, which I'm saving up for the move. I also have what was stbxw's dog which she is unwilling to sit. So add dog boarding to the trip costs. 

Due to crossing state lines to get there, I would also have to get permission from stbxw. And then she will probably want to also make the trip in an attempt to control my conversations with the grandparents and not be shown up. 

I will definitely not do the trip with stbxw physically. If she were to go at the same time it would be on her own. I have no control over that. 

So it comes down to two things: 
1. can I afford the trip and the missed work with impending move. 
2. can I be indifferent enough to visit with the in-laws while stbxw is there too.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Zillard, I must urge you to slightly reconsider that thought. Nice guy or no, great grandparents do not have rights. The DD great grandparents did not force any of this upon you. Saying that its "not your problem" while certainly having a ring of truth, is not entirely becoming of a fit parent. They didn't decide this either.
> 
> However, if you just plain cannot do it for logical reasons. I think that's perfectly understandable seeing as you got a lot on your plate.


The more I think on this the more conflicted I am. While you make a good point here, stbxw's grandmother did play a part in this. 

The day after stbxw stayed over at posom's house the first time, when her ea turned physical, she called her grandmother for advice. She later admitted that GM told her "if something happened then NEVER tell, as it will just make things worse". GM encouraged stbxw to lie, which facilitated the continuation of the affair. 

Because I see the dishonesty as more damaging to the M than the actual affair, it is hard for me to not hold this against stbxw's GM.

But at this point I have decided to not make a decision until after my next IC session.

And now I'm off to scottsdale to socialize and have a good time!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Then you owe it to GM to tell her that you hold her partially responsible and it makes you conflicted on whether to go out of your way to get your D to see her.


----------



## zillard

While out last night a woman gave me her number. We chatted for a bit but don't think I'll call. Not into her. 

I'm thankful for the compliment though. It felt good!


----------



## the guy

Dude I just spent the time reading your thread and hell I want to give you my number!LOL

In two months you have accomplished alot, in a couple of month you will be free.

You remind me a a poster back in the day call Shamwow, and thats a compliment.


----------



## zillard

the guy said:


> Dude I just spent the time reading your thread and hell I want to give you my number!LOL
> 
> In two months you have accomplished alot, in a couple of month you will be free.
> 
> You remind me a a poster back in the day call Shamwow, and thats a compliment.


Thanks Guy!


----------



## zillard

It really is true that if you put good out in the universe, it comes back to you. 

Had a talk with my boss and gave him a brief overview of my situation and need to relocate and adjust my hours to take care of D6. He responded "[Our company] isn't going anywhere. This is just work. Take care of your family. We'll adjust as needed."

Then found out, due to a billing error, my next 6+ IC sessions are already paid. 

And I have been chatting back and forth with a really pretty, funny 25 yo woman online. We have a lot in common and she loves Tom Waits. That's a good sign. Might have to meet up with her this weekend and grab a coffee. 

Feeling good.


----------



## Garry2012

who hoo!!!! keep it going!!


----------



## ReGroup

That is awesome Z, send some of those good vibes our way.

Look at you... exchanging numbers and chatting with women online! Nothing but progress indicated on your thread.

How is counseling?


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> The more I think on this the more conflicted I am. While you make a good point here, stbxw's grandmother did play a part in this.
> 
> The day after stbxw stayed over at posom's house the first time, when her ea turned physical, she called her grandmother for advice. She later admitted that GM told her "if something happened then NEVER tell, as it will just make things worse". GM encouraged stbxw to lie, which facilitated the continuation of the affair.
> 
> Because I see the dishonesty as more damaging to the M than the actual affair, it is hard for me to not hold this against stbxw's GM.
> 
> But at this point I have decided to not make a decision until after my next IC session.
> 
> And now I'm off to scottsdale to socialize and have a good time!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Friend. The hardest moment when dealing with my FIL. Was when he told me in a private conversation that when he was young he made the mistake of "telling his 1st married partner" at the time that he had an affair. (his daughter is from marriage no 3)

This mere moments after him telling me he didn't think his daughter physically cheated on me. I wonder if they were just both trying to "pull a fast one" on me. It is unlikely. But once you admit that you don't have to tell someone the truth in regards to this. All hell breaks loose, and worlds fall apart. 

So you need to be honest and open as to why you decide what you decide. Not for them, but your own personal integrity. 

My situation is different from yours. There is no proof my s2xw cheated because she just left. Frankly, I do not need to know, nor do I want to.


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> That is awesome Z, send some of those good vibes our way.
> 
> Look at you... exchanging numbers and chatting with women online! Nothing but progress indicated on your thread.
> 
> How is counseling?


Counseling is going great. Seriously the best decision I've made in years. I'm seeing that it is actually more beneficial now that stbxw moved out than it was before. Probably because I am now more focused on me than trying to get her to change and come running back. 

I've been diving into childhood issues and adaptive relationship patterns as well as self confidence and awareness. It's much easier to sort through emotions and deal with them head on when you can take a step back and acknowledge exactly what the emotions are and from where they come. 

We think with our heads, not with our hearts, right. We need to use our minds to challenge our emotions.

My session this week isn't until Thursday, when I plan on going over the GM visitation issue. At this point though I think I'll probably respond to GM/GP Thursday evening and explain my feelings about GMs involvement and how that is going to effect our relationship moving forward. 

I want to tell them that at this point I am not inclined to go out of my way, as it really would be putting me out. And stbxw can always take D6 to see them when she comes back here for the summer - not too long from now. 

But there is still time and if I get a good response and feel she truly is remorseful then I am open to changing my mind.


----------



## lee101981

You are making great strides in this progress... Seems like you are on the right path.


----------



## zillard

And they keep on coming...

Was invited to a playdate and dinner for D6 tonight. 

and

Received comps report from my real estate agent. Values are looking good and average length on the market in my area is around 40 days.

:smthumbup:


----------



## lee101981

Can we rub elbows so I can get some good progress...


Pretty Please


----------



## zillard

And here is the proof in the pudding. As soon as you start being happy and moving on, that is when the WS reaches out. 

I sent stbxw an email the other day about informing D6 of our impending move out of state (child therapist recommended we wait until after the holidays to let her process mom moving out first).

"I need to start sorting and packing things, doing walk thrus with [realtor], etc as soon as possible in order to get the house listed this time next month. D6 will have more questions so I think we need to sit down with her this weekend and discuss the move. It might be better to do it at your apartment on Saturday [when I drop her off] so she can spend time with you after, rather than bam and you're out the door for a week."

She responded that Saturday is good. 

Then she sent me the following at 3am this morning. At first I wasn't going to post it, but I think it could be helpful for some to read the feelings of a WAW/DS. Maybe someone will get something out of it if their situation hasn't escalated/progressed to the point of mine.

-----------

Maybe I'll regret sending this to you at all. I don't know what I hope to accomplish by sending this. I guess I just want to tell you how I feel without interruptions or whatever. 

I think that maybe you think this decision was easy for me. It wasn't. It isn't. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. I never thought things would end up this way. I never thought I'd feel so done. I hoped for years that you would pick up on my emotions. I hoped that you would turn off the tv instead of being mad about my "interruptions". I hoped you would recognize when I was asking for help, even if I didn't know how to articulate myself in a direct way. I hoped you would appreciate my ability to let you distance yourself when it seemed like you needed it, even when it was killing me. Maybe I should have spoken up more, but you always seemed like the type that would resent that. That you would see that as me being controlling. You've always done your own thing, and I didn't want to hinder that. I never wanted to stop you from doing your thing, even if it hurt me. I wanted nothing more than to make you happy. To please you. To keep your house nice. To raise our kid well. To make you want me around. 

But for a long time I haven't felt like you always want me around the way you did in the beginning. I felt like you've been more comfortable retreating into your own little world, and that you liked it better there. I contributed to that for sure. I'm hard to deal with. It's easier to retreat than to deal with me head-on. I know that. But enough retreat feels like abandonment. Jewelry and flowers don't make that feeling go away. If anything it makes it worse. Like actual interaction should be able to be replaced with things. I don't give a **** about things. I wanted the closeness we used to have. That feeling of being special-we used to give that to each other. It went away over time. I regret that. I wish we could have held onto that. 

Sometimes I wish I could still be 19 year old hell yeah [wife]. I wish I could ignore the feelings I'm having so that I can still be around [D6] everyday. I miss her terribly. More than anyone I've ever missed. The thought of you two [moving] kills me every day. Every day. I'm losing a part of my soul when she goes away. I know it's probaby best for her, but it's a hot knife to my heart every time I think about it. When shes a teen and gets sick of [your hometown], please tell me you'll at the very least consider letting her live with me. I already feel like a piece of my heart has been cut out of my chest, and she's not even gone yet. 

I've not been dating or going out. I've been reading and keeping to myself. I did NOT leave you for another man. Understand that. 

I've got a lot of work to do to become a healthy person. I've always been damaged. I'm sorry you thought you could fix it. I think subconsciously I thought you could fix it. You were always so calm, so patient. I thought I could absorb that calm. That patience. I thought if I played the part of perfect wife really well, I'd just become the perfect wife. If I ignored all the churning sh!t in my mind that it would go away. The chaos in my head cant't be fixed that way. Things have just compounded over the years. I wish I would have gone to therapy a long time ago. Maybe we wouldn't be where we are today if I did. 

I have a ton of regrets. Tons. You have no idea. 

This isn't a decision I came to on a whim. It's been building in intensity for a long long time. I should have spoken up. Said something. But I was afraid that I'd be dismissed. My fear of your disapproval was/is huge, believe it or not. I felt terrible at that marriage counselor appointment. I expected to feel something other than I did. It made me feel even more done than I did to begin with. I felt like you only wanted to make an effort because sh!t was dangerously close to finished. Like you only wanted to make an effort because I was already checked out. That made me sad and angry, because none of my warning signs, cries for help, or anything else mattered. It took me saying I wasn't in love with you anymore for you to give a sh!t. That made me feel even worse. That's like hitting the breaks when your car is already plummeting over the side of a cliff. Maybe my signs weren't clear. Maybe I didn't articulate myself well enough. I wish it didn't take impending doom for you to want to make an effort, I wish you had seen the signs before I felt like it was a lost cause. 

I always imagined us being together forever. I also imagined us feeling the same way about one another as we did in those early years. But that clearly changed. Maybe that's how marriage works. You eventually give up on the spark. You resign yourself to the fact that you have a life long roomate. I didn't want to exist around you, I wanted to exist with you. I wanted to feel special. Wanted. 

I'm not saying I've been the best wife or mother in history. I've failed you both on many levels. I'm incapable of dealing with a lot of things in a rational, normal, healthy way. I have a short temper. I have problems seeing things from others' points of view. But [email protected], I've fu&king tried. I've tried hard. It might not seem like it, but I have. 

I wish things were different. I wish I dealt with things differently. I wish that you reacted to things differently. I regret being so ugly with you when we had disagreements. I regret not being able to be the wife you thought you had. I regret you not being the husband I hoped you would be. I say that because I knew how you were from the beginning. I knew you were distant. I knew you existed inside your own head most of the time. I knew you weren't very demonstrative with your emotions. I guess I hoped you would would be different as time went on. And expecting someone to change for your own happiness is probably the most selfish thing I ever could have done. 

Now I've written this huge letter. It's all disjointed. I'm tired. It's late. I'm honestly afraid to send it to you. Terrified even. I hope I can muster up the courage to send it eventually. I want you to know how I feel, and I can't say all this face to face without breaking down. I'm bawling right now, and it's only a notepad document. One day I'll find the courage. 

I'm so sorry I let you down. I never meant for things to end up like this. I never wanted things to end up like this. I never thought sh!t would go this way when I said Hell Yeah [when I proposed to her]. I'm so sorry I've hurt you. You have no idea. That's the last thing I ever wanted to do.


----------



## Garry2012

Zillard, remind we where you are? is the D final? 

I hope and pray to get an email like this someday..but dont think my stbxw would ever put it together....she will just live with it.

makes me want to print it for my stbxw


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> I don't know what I hope to accomplish by sending this.


True R is not possible until the WS knows exactly what they want and what they are willing to do in order to get it.



zillard said:


> I hoped for years that you would pick up on my emotions. I hoped that you would turn off the tv instead of being mad about my "interruptions".


Guilty as charged.



zillard said:


> I hoped you would recognize when I was asking for help, even if I didn't know how to articulate myself in a direct way.


But I'm not a mind reader. 



zillard said:


> When shes a teen and gets sick of [your hometown], please tell me you'll at the very least consider letting her live with me.


Way too far into the future to know how that would go. Too many variables.



zillard said:


> I've not been dating or going out. I've been reading and keeping to myself. I did NOT leave you for another man. Understand that.


She did leave me for another man... the night she didn't come home, let her EA turn physical, and stayed at posOM's house overnight. He isn't the reason she is staying gone, but she absolutely did leave me that night, in more ways than one.



zillard said:


> I've got a lot of work to do to become a healthy person. I've always been damaged. I'm sorry you thought you could fix it. I think subconsciously I thought you could fix it. You were always so calm, so patient. I thought I could absorb that calm. That patience. I thought if I played the part of perfect wife really well, I'd just become the perfect wife. If I ignored all the churning sh!t in my mind that it would go away. The chaos in my head cant't be fixed that way. Things have just compounded over the years. I wish I would have gone to therapy a long time ago. Maybe we wouldn't be where we are today if I did.


I'm happy to see she is gaining some perspective.



zillard said:


> I felt like you only wanted to make an effort because sh!t was dangerously close to finished. Like you only wanted to make an effort because I was already checked out. .... That's like hitting the breaks when your car is already plummeting over the side of a cliff.


Seems this is also where she is now.



zillard said:


> I always imagined us being together forever. I also imagined us feeling the same way about one another as we did in those early years. But that clearly changed. Maybe that's how marriage works. You eventually give up on the spark.


Hope she learns someday about the honeymoon phase and that is completely natural for feelings of love to ebb and flow. 



zillard said:


> I knew you were distant. I knew you existed inside your own head most of the time. I knew you weren't very demonstrative with your emotions.


Guilty as charged. I am an artist. I am a creative professional. It is my job and passion to dive deep inside myself for creativity daily. And it is hard to shut that off when work is over. Ironic that what I do so well for my clients I have trouble doing at home. Effective communication.


----------



## hope4family

I read a lot of blameshifting. Were you really the problem? Sure she takes partial blame for herself. 

The biggest part here that I have contention with. Is your proposed actions when the crap really hit the fan. You started to do everything right, and she resented you for it? That is not the sign of a healthy mature person. 

Sometimes a man needs to get knocked on his butt to change. Her being passive aggressive and waiting till it was "too little too late" is really more her fault then yours. 

To you zillard I only ask you this. Do you want her back? You don't need her. So if she is willing to work on herself. Do you want her back? Is this a topic of discussion 6 months from now? Only time will tell.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Zillard, remind we where you are? is the D final?
> 
> I hope and pray to get an email like this someday..but dont think my stbxw would ever put it together....she will just live with it.
> 
> makes me want to print it for my stbxw


Consent decree is signed by both parties and notarized, but can not be filed for final stamp from the judge until Valentine's Day.

This email will not stop it.


----------



## HiRoad

Hmmmm Z. Sounds like alot of her placing blame on you.

Not alot of her accpeting responsiblility.

I think she is starting to see that you will be gone soon and is throwing the white flag.

Be extremely careful, this could be a trap.

Remember ball is in your court, your terms, your way.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> I read a lot of blameshifting. Were you really the problem? Sure she takes partial blame for herself.
> 
> The biggest part here that I have contention with. Is your proposed actions when the crap really hit the fan. You started to do everything right, and she resented you for it? That is not the sign of a healthy mature person.
> 
> Sometimes a man needs to get knocked on his butt to change. Her being passive aggressive and waiting till it was "too little too late" is really more her fault then yours.
> 
> To you zillard I only ask you this. Do you want her back? You don't need her. So if she is willing to work on herself. Do you want her back? Is this a topic of discussion 6 months from now? Only time will tell.


Yes, still a lot of blame shifting. Still no specific apology for her affair. Still no solid decision about what she wants.

I was knocked flat on my butt. And then she kicked dirt on me while I was trying to pick myself up. As soon as I became aware of a problem I put 150% effort into resolving it. 

I am proud of that. 

In contrast, her answer to the problem was running to another man. BEFORE she told me ILYBNILWY.

I still might be open to considering R. But only on my terms. She is not ready to meet those terms. So I will continue to move on. R is not probable. It is possible, but so is space travel. 

Me being moving on and being happy is not only probable, not only likely, but definite. Because I have decided to do so.


----------



## zillard

HiRoad said:


> Hmmmm Z. Sounds like alot of her placing blame on you.
> 
> Not alot of her accpeting responsiblility.
> 
> I think she is starting to see that you will be gone soon and is throwing the white flag.
> 
> Be extremely careful, this could be a trap.
> 
> Remember ball is in your court, your terms, your way.


Yes, it is very telling that this only came after talk of informing D6 of the move.


----------



## HiRoad

Yes, she may also be unhappy that your are happy with your self!!


----------



## Garry2012

She has made some ground, but cant agree more, she needs to make more ground. Like in my case, she decided to run to OM before she came to you...thats hard to undo. Personally, I would have a hard time R because i would always be waiting for it to happen again too.


----------



## hope4family

@hiroad - Mine was. 

@zillard - Good answer. I am incredibly busy with shoring up my next place to live and going through the divorce. I really want to hit a social scene and get to know people again. Most of my time though is with DS1.


----------



## ReGroup

Well, this is what she asked for. She's certaintly got it. 
With a little time and patience she could have resolved, or attempted to resolve her issues within the confines of the marriage. But SHE chose the cowards way out.

She had certain expectations on what a marriage should be like - thinking it was just suppose to happen; what she needs to learn is that it takes effort and hard work.

She wants the thrills of being with a new person? Eventually, she'll find herself in the same place later down the road.

Zillard, you're a good man and an inspiration to me. I mean that. Her Loss.


----------



## Garry2012

ReGroup said:


> Well, this is what she asked for. She's certaintly got it.
> With a little time and patience she could have resolved, or attempted to resolve her issues within the confines of the marriage. But SHE chose the cowards way out.
> 
> She had certain expectations on what a marriage should be like - thinking it was just suppose to happen; what she needs to learn is that it takes effort and hard work.
> 
> She wants the thrills of being with a new person? Eventually, she'll find herself in the same place later down the road.
> 
> Zillard, you're a good man and an inspiration to me. I mean that. Her Loss.


well said ReGroup...


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> Zillard, you're a good man and an inspiration to me. I mean that. Her Loss.


Thank you ReGroup. I agree. 

And I know that in time I can find a good woman who inspires *me*, and does not feel the "need" to constantly try and please me in order to feel like a good wife. One who is comfortable with the fact that I do my own thing and am my own person.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> "I didn't want to exist around you, I wanted to exist with you. I wanted to feel special."


I want a woman who feels special whether I am around or not. One who knows she is special and unique. One who is traveling on a path through life next to me, but exists on her own.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> I am incredibly busy with shoring up my next place to live and going through the divorce. I really want to hit a social scene and get to know people again. Most of my time though is with DS1.


Make the time for you. I have D6 six nights a week, but have started a new routine. 

Errands during the week I complete with D6 when possible.
If not possible, I do on breaks from work while D6 is in school. 
I drop off D6 Saturday around noon.
I use Sat afternoon to do something just for me.
Sat eves I do something social, even if just grabbing a burger at a pub and initiating a conversation with a stranger. 
Sun morning I do any leftover house/yard work.
Sun afternoon I do something just for me. 
Then back to weekday routine with D6.


----------



## Too Little Too Late?

zillard said:


> And here is the proof in the pudding. As soon as you start being happy and moving on, that is when the WS reaches out.
> 
> I sent stbxw an email the other day about informing D6 of our impending move out of state (child therapist recommended we wait until after the holidays to let her process mom moving out first).
> 
> "I need to start sorting and packing things, doing walk thrus with [realtor], etc as soon as possible in order to get the house listed this time next month. D6 will have more questions so I think we need to sit down with her this weekend and discuss the move. It might be better to do it at your apartment on Saturday [when I drop her off] so she can spend time with you after, rather than bam and you're out the door for a week."
> 
> She responded that Saturday is good.
> 
> Then she sent me the following at 3am this morning. At first I wasn't going to post it, but I think it could be helpful for some to read the feelings of a WAW/DS. Maybe someone will get something out of it if their situation hasn't escalated/progressed to the point of mine.
> 
> -----------
> 
> Maybe I'll regret sending this to you at all. I don't know what I hope to accomplish by sending this. I guess I just want to tell you how I feel without interruptions or whatever.
> 
> I think that maybe you think this decision was easy for me. It wasn't. It isn't. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. I never thought things would end up this way. I never thought I'd feel so done. I hoped for years that you would pick up on my emotions. I hoped that you would turn off the tv instead of being mad about my "interruptions". I hoped you would recognize when I was asking for help, even if I didn't know how to articulate myself in a direct way. I hoped you would appreciate my ability to let you distance yourself when it seemed like you needed it, even when it was killing me. Maybe I should have spoken up more, but you always seemed like the type that would resent that. That you would see that as me being controlling. You've always done your own thing, and I didn't want to hinder that. I never wanted to stop you from doing your thing, even if it hurt me. I wanted nothing more than to make you happy. To please you. To keep your house nice. To raise our kid well. To make you want me around.
> 
> But for a long time I haven't felt like you always want me around the way you did in the beginning. I felt like you've been more comfortable retreating into your own little world, and that you liked it better there. I contributed to that for sure. I'm hard to deal with. It's easier to retreat than to deal with me head-on. I know that. But enough retreat feels like abandonment. Jewelry and flowers don't make that feeling go away. If anything it makes it worse. Like actual interaction should be able to be replaced with things. I don't give a **** about things. I wanted the closeness we used to have. That feeling of being special-we used to give that to each other. It went away over time. I regret that. I wish we could have held onto that.
> 
> Sometimes I wish I could still be 19 year old hell yeah [wife]. I wish I could ignore the feelings I'm having so that I can still be around [D6] everyday. I miss her terribly. More than anyone I've ever missed. The thought of you two [moving] kills me every day. Every day. I'm losing a part of my soul when she goes away. I know it's probaby best for her, but it's a hot knife to my heart every time I think about it. When shes a teen and gets sick of [your hometown], please tell me you'll at the very least consider letting her live with me. I already feel like a piece of my heart has been cut out of my chest, and she's not even gone yet.
> 
> I've not been dating or going out. I've been reading and keeping to myself. I did NOT leave you for another man. Understand that.
> 
> I've got a lot of work to do to become a healthy person. I've always been damaged. I'm sorry you thought you could fix it. I think subconsciously I thought you could fix it. You were always so calm, so patient. I thought I could absorb that calm. That patience. I thought if I played the part of perfect wife really well, I'd just become the perfect wife. If I ignored all the churning sh!t in my mind that it would go away. The chaos in my head cant't be fixed that way. Things have just compounded over the years. I wish I would have gone to therapy a long time ago. Maybe we wouldn't be where we are today if I did.
> 
> I have a ton of regrets. Tons. You have no idea.
> 
> This isn't a decision I came to on a whim. It's been building in intensity for a long long time. I should have spoken up. Said something. But I was afraid that I'd be dismissed. My fear of your disapproval was/is huge, believe it or not. I felt terrible at that marriage counselor appointment. I expected to feel something other than I did. It made me feel even more done than I did to begin with. I felt like you only wanted to make an effort because sh!t was dangerously close to finished. Like you only wanted to make an effort because I was already checked out. That made me sad and angry, because none of my warning signs, cries for help, or anything else mattered. It took me saying I wasn't in love with you anymore for you to give a sh!t. That made me feel even worse. That's like hitting the breaks when your car is already plummeting over the side of a cliff. Maybe my signs weren't clear. Maybe I didn't articulate myself well enough. I wish it didn't take impending doom for you to want to make an effort, I wish you had seen the signs before I felt like it was a lost cause.
> 
> I always imagined us being together forever. I also imagined us feeling the same way about one another as we did in those early years. But that clearly changed. Maybe that's how marriage works. You eventually give up on the spark. You resign yourself to the fact that you have a life long roomate. I didn't want to exist around you, I wanted to exist with you. I wanted to feel special. Wanted.
> 
> I'm not saying I've been the best wife or mother in history. I've failed you both on many levels. I'm incapable of dealing with a lot of things in a rational, normal, healthy way. I have a short temper. I have problems seeing things from others' points of view. But [email protected], I've fu&king tried. I've tried hard. It might not seem like it, but I have.
> 
> I wish things were different. I wish I dealt with things differently. I wish that you reacted to things differently. I regret being so ugly with you when we had disagreements. I regret not being able to be the wife you thought you had. I regret you not being the husband I hoped you would be. I say that because I knew how you were from the beginning. I knew you were distant. I knew you existed inside your own head most of the time. I knew you weren't very demonstrative with your emotions. I guess I hoped you would would be different as time went on. And expecting someone to change for your own happiness is probably the most selfish thing I ever could have done.
> 
> Now I've written this huge letter. It's all disjointed. I'm tired. It's late. I'm honestly afraid to send it to you. Terrified even. I hope I can muster up the courage to send it eventually. I want you to know how I feel, and I can't say all this face to face without breaking down. I'm bawling right now, and it's only a notepad document. One day I'll find the courage.
> 
> I'm so sorry I let you down. I never meant for things to end up like this. I never wanted things to end up like this. I never thought sh!t would go this way when I said Hell Yeah [when I proposed to her]. I'm so sorry I've hurt you. You have no idea. That's the last thing I ever wanted to do.


Did you respond?


----------



## zillard

Too Little Too Late? said:


> Did you respond?


No. If she brings it up during our visit Saturday I will say, "I'm sorry you feel that way."


----------



## Garry2012

Did you get full custody of D6? how so?


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Did you get full custody of D6? how so?


I am primary caregiver/custodial parent with the right to relocate. Joint legal custody so she can still make emergency medical decisions when she has d6 during the summer if I cannot be reached. 

I asked for it and explained it would be better for d6. She agreed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

Btw, the whole "i feel tore up not being able to see child" its a faux pass. My s2bxw does the same thing. 

Whether its true or not, they are living in a scenario of their choice. They wanted the house broken up, and agreed to it.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Btw, the whole "i feel tore up not being able to see child" its a faux pass. My s2bxw does the same thing.
> 
> Whether its true or not, they are living in a scenario of their choice. They wanted the house broken up, and agreed to it.


Agreed. I did not force her to sign anything. How she feels about her decision, or whether it was/is difficult or not, is no longer my concern.


----------



## hope4family

Also, if its so "hard" why not humble yourself, admit what you did was wrong and beg to come home? It's not science, and in fact is a simple formula. 

Hence the 'she is just blameshifting' comment. Wants you to hear "her side of the story'. Her side has bits of truth, but at the end of the day, she made the choices that lead to the downfall.


----------



## HiRoad

Z, i am really proud of you, you are doing the right thing and making the right moves, almost brings a tear to my eye to see how you have evolved. 

Keep playing your cards right, you have got this, you can read her like a book.

See through the BS and send her packing, if your have too. 

So glad that you came here first.


----------



## zillard

HiRoad said:


> Z, i am really proud of you, you are doing the right thing and making the right moves, almost brings a tear to my eye to see how you have evolved.
> 
> Keep playing your cards right, you have got this, you can read her like a book.
> 
> See through the BS and send her packing, if your have too.
> 
> So glad that you came here first.


Thanks. I'm very glad I came here too. You all are great support. 

Oh, and I already sent her packing. Even helped and lifted the boxes for her. Some day she'll appreciate that and see that my willingness to help my disloyal ex move out was extraordinary and an example of my character and integrity.

And if not... oh well. I know it was.


----------



## zillard

Muse - Feeling Good (Video) - YouTube


----------



## zillard

Took D6 to her IC appt this morning. Stbxw showed up; surprising as it was at 8am and if you can remember she wouldn't even get up to see D6 off to school a month ago. 

We went in to give IC a quick rundown on D6 since last visit. It turned into a full hour IC session for stbxw with me sitting in. This woman is good! She picked up on all sorts of stuff right off the bat - stbxw pushing us away in order to give us "a free pass away from hell" [IC's words]. 

Flat out told stbxw that it was faulty logic and would only result in me and D6 being almost completely out of her life for good while she remains in hell. She told stbxw that while her intentions may be good, D6 will "never see this as a gift from her mother". 

She confirmed that it was a good idea for D6 and I to move, but strongly and repeatedly told stbxw that she should do intensive therapy for a few months and then follow us in order to be closer to her daughter. And that if she doesn't stbxw will end up finding abusive men and turning to alcohol to solve her problems. And her daughter won't want much to do with her as she gets older.

Quite a few times stbxw was told "of course you feel that way. But you are wrong" (followed by a reason). Went on like this for almost an hour and then she explained, "right now this IS your daughter's therapy". 

We then exited and D6 went in for a bit. IC told me after that D6 opened up much more this time about her sadness, which is good. This last week she's been having a hard time - crying in the shower, etc. 

Poor kiddo. I hope some of this gets through to her mom. For her sake. 

On a lighter note: a female friend from my hometown heard I was coming back and reached out to me. She wants to reconnect as soon as I get back. She's single now with a daughter a little younger than mine. Looking forward to it.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Took D6 to her IC appt this morning. Stbxw showed up; surprising as it was at 8am and if you can remember she wouldn't even get up to see D6 off to school a month ago.
> 
> We went in to give IC a quick rundown on D6 since last visit. It turned into a full hour IC session for stbxw with me sitting in. This woman is good! She picked up on all sorts of stuff right off the bat - stbxw pushing us away in order to give us "a free pass away from hell" [IC's words].
> 
> Flat out told stbxw that it was faulty logic and would only result in me and D6 being almost completely out of her life for good while she remains in hell. She told stbxw that while her intentions may be good, D6 will "never see this as a gift from her mother".
> 
> She confirmed that it was a good idea for D6 and I to move, but strongly and repeatedly told stbxw that she should do intensive therapy for a few months and then follow us in order to be closer to her daughter. And that if she doesn't stbxw will end up finding abusive men and turning to alcohol to solve her problems. And her daughter won't want much to do with her as she gets older.
> 
> Quite a few times stbxw was told "of course you feel that way. But you are wrong" (followed by a reason). Went on like this for almost an hour and then she explained, "right now this IS your daughter's therapy".
> 
> We then exited and D6 went in for a bit. IC told me after that D6 opened up much more this time about her sadness, which is good. This last week she's been having a hard time - crying in the shower, etc.
> 
> Poor kiddo. I hope some of this gets through to her mom. For her sake.
> 
> On a lighter note: a female friend from my hometown heard I was coming back and reached out to me. She wants to reconnect as soon as I get back. She's single now with a daughter a little younger than mine. Looking forward to it.


Thats awesome. 

If she straightened out (say 1 year from now) and you were both single. Asked you out on a date. Would you except? It might be too soon to ask.


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## zillard

hope4family said:


> Thats awesome.
> 
> If she straightened out (say 1 year from now) and you were both single. Asked you out on a date. Would you except? It might be too soon to ask.


Too far into the future and too many variables to answer with any certainty. 

I love her but I'm not in love with her.


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## hope4family

zillard said:


> Too far into the future and too many variables to answer with any certainty.
> 
> I love her but I'm not in love with her.


Honestly I feel the same way about my ex-wife.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Honestly I feel the same way about my ex-wife.


I'm certainly not waiting around to see where she is in a year. If this split had happened without betrayal, I most certainly would wait. 

But the situation is what it is. I am not comfortable with it. So I am making a better situation for myself and D6. 

Daddy-daughter adventure time!


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## HiRoad

Z, your doing soo good, man your an insperation to me!

We are both talking to women online that is great! It is crazy how word gets out so fast.

I have been debating about asking my stbxw to go to counceling on how to raise our little kids.

I have officially written her off.

Realize that life can be better than it was with the stbxw!


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## zillard

HiRoad said:


> I have been debating about asking my stbxw to go to counceling on how to raise our little kids.


In my county there is a mandatory 4 hour parenting course that we both have to take before D can be final. Applies to any D with minor kids.


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## zillard

HiRoad said:


> We are both talking to women online that is great! It is crazy how word gets out so fast.
> 
> I have officially written her off.
> 
> Realize that life can be better than it was with the stbxw!


Go get 'em HiRoad! Just don't jump in too fast. Test the waters - and your comfort level to the temperature - before diving in.


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## HiRoad

zillard said:


> I'm certainly not waiting around to see where she is in a year. *If this split had happened without betrayal*, I most certainly would wait.!


Duude, same boat buddy!! :smthumbup:

If my stbxw split was not with posOM i would wait. But she has made her choices and i am better and deserve better than that.

Cmon, stbxw met posOM 2mnts after she dropped the bomb! Done in my book, i got more self-resepect than to deal with that!

What state you moving to Z?


----------



## HiRoad

zillard said:


> Go get 'em HiRoad! Just don't jump in too fast. Test the waters - and your comfort level to the temperature - before diving in.


I know, thank god for TAM! 

You guys have been a blessing, and I have learned so much from this process.

I know the red flags, know myself better, and know what to look for.

I am taking it real slow, but having fun with it. Not going to make the same mistakes 2X's.

My kids deserve better than that from ME, since stbxw cant!


----------



## zillard

HiRoad said:


> Duude, same boat buddy!! :smthumbup:
> 
> If my stbxw split was not with posOM i would wait. But she has made her choices and i am better and deserve better than that.
> 
> Cmon, stbxw met posOM 2mnts after she dropped the bomb! Done in my book, i got more self-resepect than to deal with that!
> 
> What state you moving to Z?


Utah. Back to the mountains. Snowboarding, rock climbing, hiking, camping, rafting and more! Will be ~5 miles from National Forest. I can't wait to create new memories with D6.


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## HiRoad

Spunds like you have a plan. 

D6 will be around alot of your family, which is great for her.

You have alot of great things coming your way, keep creating your fate.

Do not loose you focus. You have come soo far. 

So when is the big move?


----------



## zillard

HiRoad said:


> So when is the big move?


I plan on listing the house this time next month and then moving as soon as it sells. If the sale keeps to the 40 day turn average in my neighborhood, that would put the move at end of March. 

I'm hoping for sooner but would be nice to not ask a low list price in order to sell it quickly. I'm becoming more comfortable in the house alone and D6 can use as many Saturdays with mom as she can get before we leave. 

It is frustrating that I can't make a set date for the move. But relative to recent events... not a problem!

I'm trying to keep focus. I let yesterday's events add a bit of haze though. I've been falling into the trap of trying to anticipate my stbxw's actions from now until the move rather than living in the present. But maybe a little anticipation isn't a bad thing as long as I see it for what it is and use it to prepare myself. 

If my simple email about setting up a time to discuss telling D6 of the move generated such a long-winded response from her, I wonder how she'll react to the session yesterday. There were a few other things discussed that I didn't write about previously. 

The IC asked me in front of stbxw, "you probably still feel love for her. Is that correct"? I replied honestly: "absolutely". 

IC then asked how I was doing. I told her I was doing well and going to weekly IC sessions of my own. She asked what I was working on. I said, "Moving on. I'm working on rebuilding. There is nothing more for me to do."

I did not look at stbxw to see how she responded. I think that's a good sign.


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## lee101981

At least yall are going to MC, mine went 1 time and that was it...


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## zillard

lee101981 said:


> At least yall are going to MC, mine went 1 time and that was it...


Not MC. This was at my D6's child psychologist appointment.


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## lee101981

How is your daughter doing?


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## hope4family

Dude Z that was effing awesome that you said that in front of a counselor, your daughter (if she was in the room) and your s2bxw. 

Way to put everything in perspective and everything in place.


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## HiRoad

I hope for you and your D6 that the house sells fast. 



> I'm trying to keep focus. I let yesterday's events add a bit of haze though. I've been falling into the trap of trying to anticipate my stbxw's actions from now until the move rather than living in the present. But maybe a little anticipation isn't a bad thing as long as I see it for what it is and use it to prepare myself.
> 
> If my simple email about setting up a time to discuss telling D6 of the move generated such a long-winded response from her, I wonder how she'll react to the session yesterday. There were a few other things discussed that I didn't write about previously.
> 
> The IC asked me in front of stbxw, "you probably still feel love for her. Is that correct"? I replied honestly: "absolutely".
> 
> IC then asked how I was doing. I told her I was doing well and going to weekly IC sessions of my own. She asked what I was working on. I said, "Moving on. I'm working on rebuilding. *There is nothing more for me to do."*
> I did not look at stbxw to see how she responded. I think that's a good sign.


Yes keep your focus, you are now more astute of your surroundings, sit back and watch her reactions. Do not anitcipate anything from her. Keep moving foward with your life.

There will be many more traps along the way, you have learned how to read them and analyze them better. You are totally aware of what is healthy for you and D6.

Your are absolutley right, there is nothing more for you to do, except focus on yourself and D6.


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> How is your daughter doing?


Overall she is doing as well as can be expected. She is enjoying her time with mom and looking forward to her visits well in advance. But she is sad. Crying in the shower and telling me how much she misses her mother daily. But it is good that she is expressing this rather than internalizing it. 

She has started idolizing her mother. Asking me if it is ok if she loves her mom as big as the universe and me only as big as the earth. I think she is doing this in order to try and feel more connected to her mom - to make up for what is not there. But it is good that she is comfortable asking me things like this and not afraid to hurt my feelings in the process. 



hope4family said:


> Dude Z that was effing awesome that you said that in front of a counselor, your daughter (if she was in the room) and your s2bxw.


D6 was not in the room for this discussion. But when she expresses to me that she misses her mother, I validate and let her know it is ok, that I have feelings like that too, and that it is important to talk about them.


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## hope4family

Ha, it may not sound like much. But I say that to my DS1 every night I tuck him in.


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## lee101981

It really hurts to see them break down but I think it is something that they need. I love the fact that they are able to express there feelings to me, I just wish they were able to express there feelings to their father..


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> It really hurts to see them break down but I think it is something that they need. I love the fact that they are able to express there feelings to me, I just wish they were able to express there feelings to their father..


I think that when they don't feel a strong emotional connection to the other parent, they are much more guarded around them. They are hesitant to say or do anything that they feel may negatively affect the other parents feelings and actions toward them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lee101981

Sounds about right


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## zillard

Just got my std test done. Results in a week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lee101981

I am clean and clear!! 

Glad you got it done, you just never know!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

Well, I just got back from the X's apartment. Dropped off D6 and spent about an hour there as we had to break the news of D6 and I moving out of state soon. It went well.

The X asked me to step out on the porch so we could discuss our game plan before having the discussion with D6. She asked what we should say. I told her the reason was up to her as it was her relationship with D6 in jeopardy, not mine. She stated that we need to reinforce the positives of the move (cousins, grandparents, etc). I told her "that's the easy part and a given. How do plan to answer D6's questions about why you are not also moving?" Again her infamous answer, "I don't know". She said she'd been thinking on it for weeks. 

We sat in silence for a bit as I waited for a real answer... refusing to offer the solution for her. For me the silence was completely comfortable this time. I just sat, relaxed in the patio chair, looking directly at the X the entire time. She couldn't look at me for very long without fidgeting and diverting her gaze. 

She then spoke, "how do I explain to D6 that I'm crazy? She's too young to understand that."

I replied, "that's up to you. If you leave it to me to answer her questions I will tell her that you don't want to move."

"I don't! But if I tell her that she'll feel that I don't think she is important enough."

I replied calmly, "No answer is going to be good. But you need to decide your reason and be honest. If you tell her it is because of your job then she will think your job is more important than her."

She then deflected and told me, "you need to eat. What are down to now... 135? Lower?"

I replied, "That is not your concern. We are no longer friends. You fired me. We have nothing to discuss but D6."

"Sorry for being concerned and caring about you!"

Me, "I can take care of myself. What are you going to tell D6?"

She then gave up on the conversation and went inside to start the discussion with D6. We all sat on the couch with D6 in the middle. I started the discussion and broke the news to D6. Informed her that we would not move until after her birthday and we would all celebrate her Bday together. Explained that after the move she would see mom much less, but she would be able to call and skype her mom as much as possible. Reinforced the positive aspects of the move, which D6 was already talking about. She's excited to be around my family more. Explained we'd be alternating holidays and mom would be coming to our new location to visit as much as she could. Reinforced the usuals: not her fault, mom will always be your mom, we both love you and that will never change, etc.

We asked if she had any questions and she did but they were trivial - bday, house sale, dog, etc. She didn't ask about why her mom isn't going. The X lucked out... for the moment. 

After, as I sat on the couch and waited for X to gather a couple things for me (some items that were mine), I inspected her apt more closely. Almost all the decor she has put up are things I gave her as gifts. Anniversary gifts on the bookshelf and counter. Framed, vinyl albums I'd searched garage sales for her. All the art that she'd hung are things I found for her for anniversary gifts, birthdays, and "just cause" (we're both big art lovers). Even the curtains she chose to hang. 

This all reinforced my belief that I have surpassed her in detaching. While in her apt I kept noticing her staring at me, but quickly glancing away when I looked at her. I was content and smiling much as the time as I was happy D6 was taking it well and excited about the move. 

Not 10 minutes after I left I received a text from her. Something about D6's dolls. I did not respond.

Today is a good day.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> She then deflected and told me, "you need to eat. What are down to now... 135? Lower?"


This is kinda funny. 

After Dday the stress and lack of sleep/appetite definitely caused me to lose weight. I dropped about 15 lbs (which for me is a lot). But since Thanksgiving I've maintained a steady 150. 

I have lost some inches as I've turned some flab into muscle though. But I haven't been 135 since high school.


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## GutPunch

Me too Z ... I went from a 36" waist to a 32". Amazing.
I have always worked out and ran. I guess I shocked the weight off.


----------



## HiRoad

Amazing z!! Good job! Me two went from 6' 215 36" waist to 180 3 " waist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch

Dang Hi 35lbs Wow You win!


----------



## zillard

HiRoad said:


> Amazing z!! Good job! Me two went from 6' 215 36" waist to 180 3 " waist.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, I'm 5'8+ and 150 with 31" waist now. Was pushing 34" waist and 165 before this.


----------



## zillard

Nothin' like a little D to get you into your skinny pants! wocka wocka.


----------



## lee101981

zillard said:


> Well, I just got back from the X's apartment. Dropped off D6 and spent about an hour there as we had to break the news of D6 and I moving out of state soon. It went well.
> 
> The X asked me to step out on the porch so we could discuss our game plan before having the discussion with D6. She asked what we should say. I told her the reason was up to her as it was her relationship with D6 in jeopardy, not mine. She stated that we need to reinforce the positives of the move (cousins, grandparents, etc). I told her "that's the easy part and a given. How do plan to answer D6's questions about why you are not also moving?" Again her infamous answer, "I don't know". She said she'd been thinking on it for weeks.
> 
> We sat in silence for a bit as I waited for a real answer... refusing to offer the solution for her. For me the silence was completely comfortable this time. I just sat, relaxed in the patio chair, looking directly at the X the entire time. She couldn't look at me for very long without fidgeting and diverting her gaze.
> 
> She then spoke, "how do I explain to D6 that I'm crazy? She's too young to understand that."
> 
> I replied, "that's up to you. If you leave it to me to answer her questions I will tell her that you don't want to move."
> 
> "I don't! But if I tell her that she'll feel that I don't think she is important enough."
> 
> I replied calmly, "No answer is going to be good. But you need to decide your reason and be honest. If you tell her it is because of your job then she will think your job is more important than her."
> 
> She then deflected and told me, "you need to eat. What are down to now... 135? Lower?"
> 
> I replied, "That is not your concern. We are no longer friends. You fired me. We have nothing to discuss but D6."
> 
> "Sorry for being concerned and caring about you!"
> 
> Me, "I can take care of myself. What are you going to tell D6?"
> 
> She then gave up on the conversation and went inside to start the discussion with D6. We all sat on the couch with D6 in the middle. I started the discussion and broke the news to D6. Informed her that we would not move until after her birthday and we would all celebrate her Bday together. Explained that after the move she would see mom much less, but she would be able to call and skype her mom as much as possible. Reinforced the positive aspects of the move, which D6 was already talking about. She's excited to be around my family more. Explained we'd be alternating holidays and mom would be coming to our new location to visit as much as she could. Reinforced the usuals: not her fault, mom will always be your mom, we both love you and that will never change, etc.
> 
> We asked if she had any questions and she did but they were trivial - bday, house sale, dog, etc. She didn't ask about why her mom isn't going. The X lucked out... for the moment.
> 
> After, as I sat on the couch and waited for X to gather a couple things for me (some items that were mine), I inspected her apt more closely. Almost all the decor she has put up are things I gave her as gifts. Anniversary gifts on the bookshelf and counter. Framed, vinyl albums I'd searched garage sales for her. All the art that she'd hung are things I found for her for anniversary gifts, birthdays, and "just cause" (we're both big art lovers). Even the curtains she chose to hang.
> 
> This all reinforced my belief that I have surpassed her in detaching. While in her apt I kept noticing her staring at me, but quickly glancing away when I looked at her. I was content and smiling much as the time as I was happy D6 was taking it well and excited about the move.
> 
> Not 10 minutes after I left I received a text from her. Something about D6's dolls. I did not respond.
> 
> Today is a good day.


So not to many questions huh...

I think once yall get moved you might hear her alittle more out of her....


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> So not to many questions huh...
> 
> I think once yall get moved you might hear her alittle more out of her....


Knowing D6 it will come sooner than that. This next week she'll have plenty of questions about her mom and the move. Right now she's just happy to be spending time with her. 

Sucks for the X as I won't lie to D6. But I also won't give her more detail than is appropriate for her age.


----------



## lee101981

zillard said:


> Knowing D6 it will come sooner than that. This next week she'll have plenty of questions about her mom and the move. Right now she's just happy to be spending time with her.
> 
> Sucks for the X as I won't lie to D6. But I also won't give her more detail than is appropriate for her age.



These girls are alot more in tune with what is going on them most people would give them credit for.... Little scary!!!


----------



## turnera

It's extremely common for young children to concern themselves with the technical details, over the philosophical ones. How will Santa find me? Stuff like that. They are remarkably resilient to new situations, as long as YOU don't make it out to be a huge issue.


----------



## zillard

I had a setback this weekend. A stumble on my path up the mountain of rebuilding. It was a mistake but I'm trying to see it as a learning opportunity.

I was on Facebook Friday night posting back and forth on my wall with an old friend who asked if I had started dating. I confirmed and during the conversation a now-single female friend from my past (not the one I mentioned previously) jumped in and asked about my divorce and why I was moving. I told her it would be better for me and D6 as here she only has me and "1/2 a mom". We then set up a date for next Saturday. I'm looking forward to it. 

Immediately after I received a text from the X expressing anger that I was "broadcasting [her] failure as a mother on the internet". I'm not even sure how she saw it as I have removed her from my FB. 

My mistake was responding. I engaged her in a back and forth for about an hour. 

Z - Please correct me if I've been inaccurate or misleading. Otherwise, I'm sorry you feel that way. You don't want to be known as crazy. You don't want to be known as the wife that cheated. What else am I to say? Please tell me.

X - No. you're right. I'm half a mom. Just like you were half a husband.

Z - I'm sorry you feel that way. But you are wrong.

Z - How would you prefer I answer questions? What do you want? If you don't tell me, you can't blame me. I will not remain silent and I will not lie. Period.

X - I don't know what I want. Just know I'm not talking ship about you all out in the open.

Z - I'm not talking ship. I'm being as nice as I can under the circumstances. I even called people out for talkin ship and you know it! Again. What would you have me say? I have to say something as my issue is not saying anything. If you want input.. Give it!

X - Say what you will. 

Z - If that's what you want then I will ignore your protests in the future. Your call.

X - Do you tell people that you pushed me so far away that I finally gave up? Or just that I'm crazy and a cheater? 

Z - I say WE had problems. Then you refused to deal with them and turned to another man. Then told me you don't love me anymore. Then lied about your affair. Then requested divorce and refused marriage counseling. Then I filed papers and you moved out. Am I wrong?

X - Nope

Z - Then leave me alone.

X - No problem.


----------



## hope4family

Z, I want your thoughts on this. Yours and mine both claim that they never talk ship about us. Why is that you think? Do you think it's true?


----------



## zillard

Less than an hour later I received an email from her. 

A while back when I was angry I posted her posOM up on cheaterville.com with images of a couple of their FB exchanges as proof (with her name and info blurred). 

The email:

I said it would be easier if I hated you. You're beginning to make it much easier. F*&k you.

(then included a link to the cheaterville post). 

Again I made the mistake of responding. 

Z- You've checked out anyway... your own words. So what does it matter? Please... let me know. Do I really care if it makes anything "easier" for you?

I then got a message from her posOM. A long string of curse words and insults saying I'm not a real man. 

Again I made the mistake of responding. 

Z - A real man that doesn't touch married women. Come clean and own your ship and I'll take it [the post] down. You still going to deny ever touching her?

He then threatened me with a slander suit. I told him I wasn't worried and to try it. Quit talking about it. 

It's clear to me that I need to do a better job of standing firm and enforcing my NC. Nothing good comes from responding. It only sets me back in my progress.


----------



## angelpixie

Even though you ended up engaging her, it sounds like you got your point across, and now you can start the limited contact over again. Good luck on selling your house quickly and for a good price!

My DS (10 y.o.) has never talked much about our split. He was just 8 when we started our several-month-long in-house separation. It took him by surprise, as we did the vast majority of our fighting away from him. He's adjusted to two homes pretty well, and to his dad's chagrin, thinks of my little place as 'home' rather than the house he's always known, where his dad lives. I've tried to keep my emotions about the D to a minimum around him, but just this Saturday, we talked a little bit, and (I don't even remember why now) I mentioned that I don't want to let him know that I'm sad when I am sometimes. He got very serious and said, "Mom, I'm your son, I know when you're feeling sad. You don't have to hide it from me, I can tell. I don't want you to hide it from me. Just like you don't want me to hide it from you." Kids have much more going on in their little heads than we give them credit for.


----------



## lee101981

Just seems when we open up our hearts or minds these spouses have a way of making us regret it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Z, I want your thoughts on this. Yours and mine both claim that they never talk ship about us. Why is that you think? Do you think it's true?


Absolutely not. 

While she was still here I know for a fact that she was vilifying me to her work friends and posOM.

Note how my X said "Just know I'm not talking ship about you *all out in the open.*"


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> He got very serious and said, "Mom, I'm your son, I know when you're feeling sad. You don't have to hide it from me, I can tell. I don't want you to hide it from me. Just like you don't want me to hide it from you." Kids have much more going on in their little heads than we give them credit for.


That is so sweet. You clearly have an awesome son and he clearly knows he has an awesome mom. Kids are so amazing, insightful and observant. We could all learn so much from them


----------



## angelpixie

RE: talking ship out in the open: Very true -- and I later found the emails to prove it. And you often can tell by the change in the way the other people treat you. If you haven't had any change in your personal interactions with them -- then there's a good chance it's because of what they're hearing from the ex.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Less than an hour later I received an email from her.
> 
> A while back when I was angry I posted her posOM up on cheaterville.com with images of a couple of their FB exchanges as proof (with her name and info blurred).
> 
> The email:
> 
> I said it would be easier if I hated you. You're beginning to make it much easier. F*&k you.
> 
> (then included a link to the cheaterville post).
> 
> Again I made the mistake of responding.
> 
> Z- You've checked out anyway... your own words. So what does it matter? Please... let me know. Do I really care if it makes anything "easier" for you?
> 
> I then got a message from her posOM. A long string of curse words and insults saying I'm not a real man.
> 
> Again I made the mistake of responding.
> 
> Z - A real man that doesn't touch married women. Come clean and own your ship and I'll take it [the post] down. You still going to deny ever touching her?
> 
> He then threatened me with a slander suit. I told him I wasn't worried and to try it. Quit talking about it.
> 
> It's clear to me that I need to do a better job of standing firm and enforcing my NC. Nothing good comes from responding. It only sets me back in my progress.


Block her on FB. She is out for blood. Don't expect it to stop. I imagine you'll have something negative about yourself soon online. 

Go NC. Stay NC. You'll like it more.


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> RE: talking ship out in the open: Very true -- and I later found the emails to prove it. And you often can tell by the change in the way the other people treat you. If you haven't had any change in your personal interactions with them -- then there's a good chance it's because of what they're hearing from the ex.


Fortunately I don't have anything to worry about. All of our friends during the marriage were my friends to begin with. Except for her best friend from high school who she pushed away a year ago. We now talk frequently as she offers much insight into how to interact with my X when she gets in her moods.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Block her on FB. She is out for blood. Don't expect it to stop. I imagine you'll have something negative about yourself soon online.
> 
> Go NC. Stay NC. You'll like it more.


Blocked!

See, negative info about me on the internet doesn't worry me. Anyone that knows me has no trouble seeing me as a man of integrity. And those that don't know me? Who cares.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Blocked!
> 
> See, negative info about me on the internet doesn't worry me. Anyone that knows me has no trouble seeing me as a man of integrity. And those that don't know me? Who cares.


Z it has nothing to do with that. My primary concern is for her to 180 and decide that suddenly she wants to contest for the child. Don't think she won't make it as hard as you as she possibly can. 

There is a difference between having a spine and being overzealous in your integrity. When everything becomes legal and on paper. Then say what you want and be open about it. 

Right now you should be quoting the "if you can't say something nice..." type saying. 

For the record, you are being a man of integrity. But child custody doesn't give two ships about your integrity vs hers.


----------



## HiRoad

Z glad you blocked her, i blocked mine at xmas, and all her freinds, mutual friends family, eveyone that is associated with her, exept one friend that is mutulal. I did this on purpose as i know she will report what she sees on my FB to my stbxw. She will be MY mole. 

Stop engaging the X (you know this) 

Go NC, this is best for you.

DO not feed the fire, or engage posOM, this is what they want

Go DARK.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Z it has nothing to do with that. My primary concern is for her to 180 and decide that suddenly she wants to contest for the child. Don't think she won't make it as hard as you as she possibly can.
> 
> There is a difference between having a spine and being overzealous in your integrity. When everything becomes legal and on paper. Then say what you want and be open about it.
> 
> Right now you should be quoting the "if you can't say something nice..." type saying.
> 
> For the record, you are being a man of integrity. But child custody doesn't give two ships about your integrity vs hers.


Good points Hope. I do have the final decree and custody agreement signed and notarized by both parties here on my desk. I just have to go file it once the waiting period is up. Because it is a "consent decree" there is no court date. The judge stamps and copies are sent back.


----------



## zillard

HiRoad said:


> Z glad you blocked her, i blocked mine at xmas, and all her freinds, mutual friends family, eveyone that is associated with her, exept one friend that is mutulal. I did this on purpose as i know she will report what she sees on my FB to my stbxw. She will be MY mole.
> 
> Stop engaging the X (you know this)
> 
> Go NC, this is best for you.
> 
> DO not feed the fire, or engage posOM, this is what they want
> 
> Go DARK.


Would you remove the cheaterville post or leave it up?


----------



## lee101981

Remove it!


----------



## angelpixie

At least til after the divorce is final.


----------



## HiRoad

Remove it, go absolulety NC, one word responces!

Do not engage convo! 

And act happy!


----------



## zillard

I removed it. No longer visible. 

I did post it out of anger and spite, knowing full well it would generate a response of some kind. Not an action to be proud of and not healthy. Nothing to beat myself up over though - rather a learning opportunity.

Stumble done. Back on the path.


----------



## HiRoad

zillard said:


> I removed it. No longer visible.
> 
> I did post it out of anger and spite, knowing full well it would generate a response of some kind. Not an action to be proud of and not healthy. Nothing to beat myself up over though - rather a learning opportunity.
> 
> Stumble done. Back on the path.


Bravo, well done, you know what to do next!


----------



## K.C.

zillard said:


> Stumble done. Back on the path.


:smthumbup:


----------



## zillard

I received 6 emails from X last night. Really wish I could ignore them all (by not reading them) but many are often about D6. At least it's better than the late night phone calls and texts that were waking me repeatedly before. 

She was begging me to take down the cheaterville post (even though I already did... for me). 

"He didn't break us up. We broke us up. I broke us up."

Still not fully holding herself accountable yet. Hopefully she'll get there in time. For her sake. 

I do hold myself accountable for the things I've done... and not done. It's the only way to avoid repeating unhealthy patterns and behaviors. 

I tend to see myself as more honorable than most, when often times it isn't true and blinds me to my errors. 

I bottle things up and am not assertive enough. I have trouble saying "no". 

I try to fix others in order to boost my ego.

I often am too apathetic in order to avoid dealing with my problems.

But I will work through these things, rather than around them.


----------



## lee101981

Zillard,

One of the ways of moving and improving is to see the things that you need to work on.You truly have been one of my biggest supporters. You see yourself for who you are and what you need to work on and it is truly inspiring... I am working on a few things myself and it feels pretty good.. I am missing my calendar words...


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> I received 6 emails from X last night. Really wish I could ignore them all (by not reading them) but many are often about D6. At least it's better than the late night phone calls and texts that were waking me repeatedly before.
> 
> She was begging me to take down the cheaterville post (even though I already did... for me).
> 
> "He didn't break us up. We broke us up. I broke us up."
> 
> Still not fully holding herself accountable yet. Hopefully she'll get there in time. For her sake.
> 
> I do hold myself accountable for the things I've done... and not done. It's the only way to avoid repeating unhealthy patterns and behaviors.
> 
> I tend to see myself as more honorable than most, when often times it isn't true and blinds me to my errors.
> 
> I bottle things up and am not assertive enough. I have trouble saying "no".
> 
> I try to fix others in order to boost my ego.
> 
> I often am too apathetic in order to avoid dealing with my problems.
> 
> But I will work through these things, rather than around them.


Dude that describes me to a capital "T".


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Dude that describes me to a capital "T".


I think it probably describes many of us betrayed spouses. While nothing excuses the actions of our DS', we must accept that we are at least partially responsible for the ruts our marriages were in before the betrayal. 

There are way too many similarities in our marriages, situations, and spouses to ignore this.


----------



## turnera

MMSL is good for that.

I assume you didn't answer her. Right?


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> I assume you didn't answer her. Right?


Correct.


----------



## zillard

Just had my real estate agent over. Good news and bad news.

The bad:

I cannot close before the first week in May or will have to pay back the First Time Homebuyer credit (8k).

So no relocation until end of April-ish.

More time alone with no family support. 

The good:

House looks great. She recommended not putting any money into it other than a few hundred for curb appeal (pruning, add a few flowers, touchup, etc).

Shouldn't be a problem getting offers within 2 wks of list date.

D6 will have more Saturdays with her mother than previously expected.

D6 and I will both have more time to heal (inside IC and out) before adding the stresses of an interstate move. 

It will be warming up in new location - less chance of snow during our travels. 

D6 will get to finish up most of the school year here with her friends.


----------



## lee101981

zillard said:


> Just had my real estate agent over. Good news and bad news.
> 
> The bad:
> 
> *I cannot close before the first week in May or will have to pay back the First Time Homebuyer credit (8k).*
> So no relocation until end of April-ish.
> 
> More time alone with no family support.
> 
> The good:
> 
> House looks great. She recommended not putting any money into it other than a few hundred for curb appeal (pruning, add a few flowers, touchup, etc).
> 
> Shouldn't be a problem getting offers within 2 wks of list date.
> 
> D6 will have more Saturdays with her mother than previously expected.
> 
> D6 and I will both have more time to heal (inside IC and out) before adding the stresses of an interstate move.
> 
> It will be warming up in new location - less chance of snow during our travels.
> 
> D6 will get to finish up most of the school year here with her friends.




This could be a good thing maybe your daughter will be able to finish out the school year with her friends...Just tying to look on the bright side


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> This could be a good thing maybe your daughter will be able to finish out the school year with her friends...Just tying to look on the bright side


Yes. I see more positives than negatives. 

As long as I stick to the path!


----------



## turnera

You can spend the time finding new ways to keep yourself busy. Start biking or jogging or go mall walking or find all the record stores in your area...get creative.


----------



## zillard

D6 had a meltdown last night after her good night phone call with her mom. She told me that she doesn't want to move unless her mom moves too and cried for some time while I held her. 

I validated and told her it is ok to feel sad and it's good to let it out and share those feelings with me. 

She asked me if I ever cried while she is at school because I miss her mom. I said yes, I have. She asked if it was before her mom moved out or after. I said both, but that she doesn't need to worry about me or worry about hurting my feelings. 

She then gave me a huge bear hug and told me how much she loves me. 

She has an IC appt this afternoon. Her mother is not coming this time as she is taking the court ordered parenting class today. 

I feel so bad for D6. It really sucks that the kids get the worst deal in these situations.


----------



## lee101981

zillard said:


> D6 had a meltdown last night after her good night phone call with her mom. She told me that she doesn't want to move unless her mom moves too and cried for some time while I held her.
> 
> I validated and told her it is ok to feel sad and it's good to let it out and share those feelings with me.
> 
> She asked me if I ever cried while she is at school because I miss her mom. I said yes, I have. She asked if it was before her mom moved out or after. I said both, but that she doesn't need to worry about me or worry about hurting my feelings.
> 
> She then gave me a huge bear hug and told me how much she loves me.
> 
> She has an IC appt this afternoon. Her mother is not coming this time as she is taking the court ordered parenting class today.
> 
> I feel so bad for D6. It really sucks that the kids get the worst deal in these situations.


:iagree::iagree:
:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I felt sick the other night when I told the girls that their dad is not moving back home and we are getting a divorce... I threw up after they went to bed I felt so bad...


----------



## soca70

lee101981 said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> I felt sick the other night when I told the girls that their dad is not moving back home and we are getting a divorce... I threw up after they went to bed I felt so bad...


I could better handle telling my kids STBX died rather than this.


----------



## lee101981

It was not pretty, I hate seeing my girls hurt..


----------



## zillard

soca70 said:


> I could better handle telling my kids STBX died rather than this.


Not only that, but I could also better handle this if X had died. 

I don't mean that in a spiteful way at all. I do not wish harm on her and am glad she is alive and hope she lives a long, happy life. 

But I see that it is currently not healthy for me to be a part of it.


----------



## GutPunch

Z

I have a S6 and D3 and to see them cry over their Mommy not living with us is excruciating. I feel your pain on this matter. Seems like you handled it well.


----------



## GutPunch

zillard said:


> Not only that, but I could also better handle this is X has died.
> 
> I don't mean that in a spiteful way at all. I do not wish harm on her and am glad she is alive and hope she lives a long, happy life.
> 
> But I see that it is currently not healthy for me to be a part of it.


I totally understand. I think it's worse than a death. Death is final. This is a lingering hurt. Then having to work together for the kids sake. More pain every time I see her.


----------



## lee101981

GutPunch said:


> I totally understand. I think it's worse than a death. Death is final. This is a lingering hurt. Then having to work together for the kids sake. More pain every time I see her.


H use to come over to the house on Tuesdays to see the girls and he would be here till bed time and I told him we cant do this anymore. So he will pick them up take them to dinner and bring them back. I dont even want to lay eyes on him... I cant look at him without hurting... He shows no emotions what so ever and it hurts that he is able to keep everything bottled up...


----------



## hope4family

It will take time. But the children do seem to recovery quickly as to them, Mom is mom. Nothing changes that. 

In our case, we had more at stake to lose to an extent. We lose a partner, friend, lover, spouse, and end up with a (hopefully amicable) co-parent.


----------



## GutPunch

UpnOver said:


> I'm confused by this current conversation.
> 
> So what you're saying is.
> 
> It sucks to see your kids in pain from all of this.
> 
> Yet it would be just fine if there mother were to die?
> 
> Who's pain are you really dealing with here.
> 
> Your kids.
> 
> Or your own?



UP,

I was definitely talking about my pain and not the kids.


----------



## 06Daddio08

GutPunch said:


> UP,
> 
> I was definitely talking about my pain and not the kids.


Cannot deny.

I've had such thoughts before.

"It would be better if she had just died".

I felt immense guilt afterwards for thinking such a thing.

Especially when I relate such thoughts to my kids.

Truthfully I made such a joke a few nights ago while on the phone.

I didn't like the feeling I got afterwards once again.

Which is why indifference is so important.

Also, not feeling the need to 'compensate' for the other parent.

Children need both parents when it's possible.

They will learn life lessons regardless from each parent as well.

Observant little buggers they are!


----------



## zillard

UpnOver said:


> I'm confused by this current conversation.
> 
> So what you're saying is.
> 
> It sucks to see your kids in pain from all of this.
> 
> Yet it would be just fine if there mother were to die?
> 
> Who's pain are you really dealing with here.
> 
> Your kids.
> 
> Or your own?


Explaining to the kid that X is dead and no longer returning WOULD be easier for the BS than trying to explain why X has abandoned the kid. 

Not saying that death of X would be a better situation for kiddo. Absolutely not.


----------



## zillard

GutPunch said:


> More pain every time I see her.


This does get better too. 

During our in house separation it was nearly unbearable to see her, to hear her voice, to smell her after she'd walked down the hall. 

But it is much different now. While she and D6 are laughing with each other on the speaker phone, I can chuckle now too. 

I can sit with X and look her in the eyes and smile at things D6 has done or said. 

I can remain composed and focused on communication techniques when she is disagreeable or insulting... most of the time. Still working on that one and don't plan to stop working on it.

You can hit a point where it becomes less painful every time you see her.


----------



## zillard

UpnOver said:


> "It would be better if she had just died".
> 
> I felt immense guilt afterwards for thinking such a thing.


Better, no. Easier, yes. 

I don't feel guilt after thinking or saying it would be easier. It simply would. 

With the death of a loved one you have grief due to a loss. 

With divorce after infidelity you have grief due to the loss of a loved one (while you still see them physically), grief of future plans and/or your view of the marriage, rejection due to betrayal, and more. 

My IC explained it this way to me: 

This will be harder than the death of your brother. He did not choose to leave you and he did not betray you before leaving.


----------



## zillard

UpnOver said:


> That's complete victim speak on your part.
> 
> A child should never hear the words 'abandoned'.
> 
> Regardless of how you feel about it.


That's where the difficulty in explaining comes in. I have not, nor will I use that word when speaking to her, nor where she can hear.

I have not told her why her mother is not also moving. If she asks, and I'm sure she will eventually, I must respond in an age appropriate way that does not negatively influence her view of her mother.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> That's where the difficulty in explaining comes in. I have not, nor will I use that word when speaking to her, nor where she can hear.
> 
> I have not told her why her mother is not also moving. If she asks, and I'm sure she will eventually, I must respond in an age appropriate way that does not negatively influence her view of her mother.


I had a discussion with d6's IC about answering this question. 

She told me to stop doing X's share of the parenting. She said answering that is X's responsibility and I should either tell d6 "I don't know because mom hasn't told us yet" or "that's a discussion that we should have with mom".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

So X earlier explained in an email that she couldn't make D6's IC appointment at 2pm because she was taking the parenting course from 12-4pm.

I started getting texts from her at 12:48 accusing me of hacking into her cell phone account and changing the billing address. These continued through 1:30pm. 

Then at 1:46pm I get another: Called [phone company], they said it was a mistake.

Hmm. 

First: no apology for the accusation. Not surprising.

Second: She either did not go to the parenting class, or is texting and on the phone through it. 

D6's IC asked me why she wasn't there this time. I told her about the parenting class. She was skeptical because the last visit was so intense for X.


----------



## zillard

Whoa. 

Ok, now two X's from over a decade ago have reached out to me this week. And a good friend's XW. 

Word does get around fast.


----------



## HiRoad

Glad to see you are doing so well Z!

keep looking foward and try to avoid the backslide.

you are well on your way to a wonderful new life with D6.

Do NOT engage with stbxw!

If she is texting you about anything other than D6, do not respond.

This is soo critical for your overall success.


----------



## zillard

Oh man, kids are so observant. 

XW called to say goodnight. She apologized to D6 that she wasn't at her IC appt today and said she'll be at her awards assembly tomorrow. 

D6's end of the conversation:

Are you sure? 

Do you promise? 

Do you pinky promise... just without the pinky? 

You know that means you HAVE to now, right? 

We'll see.


----------



## lee101981

That would make me feel like total [email protected] if one of my kids said that to me.......


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> That would make me feel like total [email protected] if one of my kids said that to me.......


Right now I don't care if it does or not. D6 is in a good mood. We went out shopping today and got her new clothes. Played ballerina. Then made one of her favorite meals... bell peppers stuffed with sausage, tomato and rice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lee101981

No I mean for your spouse...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> No I mean for your spouse...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

My kid amazes me and inspires me daily. 

Saturday we told her about moving out of state.

Wednesday she broke down saying she didn't want to go without her mom.

Tonight she was singing in the shower and then repeated that she doesn't want to go without her mom. But immediately followed it up saying that she DOES want to go to be closer to our family. 

They truly are resilient. :biggrinangelA:


----------



## lee101981

Must be cause she has a great dad
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## whitehawk

hey z mate. how come you might be moving interstate. sorry but i've been on awhile and couldn't find it or read any more.

i've had a bit of a revelation on that one.
last week we went over to where i was thinking of moving to later when we sell this house - 12 mths away min and it was hot . really hot.
it felt really nice to get back home over here that day. cooler , greener, it's got the coast .
well , over there would also be 2 1/2 hrs away from my daughter here yet somewhere over here would only be 10 to 35 mins and , the main towns much bigger than over there.
meanwhile this great blocks come up for sale near here and if we sell this place i could afford it and it'd only be 15mins from my daughter .
told the ex , she was stoked , raved about what a great spot and that i could still be sop close to my daughter full time.

so that was huge for me , all this stuffs been worrying the crap out of me . mind you that block might sell before i can finish and sell this place but hey i'll take what ever little sunshine i can get right now :smthumbup:


----------



## zillard

whitehawk said:


> hey z mate. how come you might be moving interstate. sorry but i've been on awhile and couldn't find it or read any more.


No problem. D6 and I are moving up north, back to my hometown - 800 miles away. I have a huge family there for support and she has all her cousins there.

We moved here a few years back as it was what the X wanted. But here we have nobody but a handful of friends. No family at all. I have my daughter 6 nights a week - X only wants Saturdays nights... won't change jobs/shifts to be with daughter more. 

So it makes more sense for us to go to where our support system is. X has given permission in custody agreement and will come visit as she can and daughter will come stay with her a bit in the summers.

Terrible for D6 to be so far from her mom. But here her mom is already 45min drive away and emotionally checked out... so why not, right? Pros outweigh the cons.


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## whitehawk

ahh right . 
yeah it's such a tough call isn't it .
you know though z , mum will probably check back in later on but let her move then i guess !

this has actually made me think. this block would only be 15mins from my daughter but then , i'm still around my wife's new life to aren't i .
hmm , if we didn't get back together then i would rather be well away from that . oh well , one reason i'm taking 12 mths on the house.


----------



## niceguysfinishlast

Sigh...I'm in pretty much exactly the situation that Zillard described at the beginning of the thread although I'm still early on. I made a new thread for my situation:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...lot-like-what-do-i-dont-know.html#post1372613

I just hope I can recover before a D.


----------



## zillard

Oh boy. 

Went to D6's awards assembly. X did show up. I gave her a smile as she entered and she came and sat with me. DD walked in with her class. 

X commented, "Good job with her pig tails!" 

I replied "I've got it covered."

She asked about D6. I said she's doing well but told her about her breakdown and saying she doesn't want to move unless mom moves too. 

X - "I was talking with my IC and we don't think you and D6 should move right away."

Z - "Oh yeah? Why?"

X - "Because if I'm here working on myself (getting help) and you two leave, then I'll be stuck. [My IC] and [D6's IC] were talking about it and agree."

Z - "You're not stuck anywhere. What do you mean?"

X - "Nevermind. I'll try to formulate it in an email for you"

Interesting, as yesterday when I was talking with D6's IC (a day after X's IC appt) I told her about how the move may be delayed until May. I mentioned that it would be good for D6 though to finish up most of the school year and also have more weekends with her mom. 

D6's IC said, yes, she's very connected at her school and tying up that loose end would be good. But she's not sure more weekends with her mom will be. She doesn't think X is ready for that and may not take extra time with her daughter even if it's available. 

So we'll see how the email turns out. If she sends one. But I'm proceeding as planned. I have no reason to stay here. 

Meanwhile I'm still conversing nightly with an old female friend in my hometown. She's in a great spot in her life. Focused on her daughter. She doesn't drink or associate with her old friends who do a lot. She's spoken of how she's found peace and happiness being single and how relationships are wonderful but she doesn't need one to feel complete. All good signs. 

I also have a date next Saturday with a woman I had a crush on in high school who now lives in the area. Nothing too formal just a casual dinner and then hanging with some friends. 

And I met a new single mom at the school who has expressed excitement that we get to see each other every day while waiting for pickup.


----------



## turnera

I hope you have an ironclad agreement to let you take D away. I foresee a lengthy court battle, once her lawyer gets whiff of this.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> I hope you have an ironclad agreement to let you take D away. I foresee a lengthy court battle, once her lawyer gets whiff of this.


Fairly confident she doesn't have one. 

Final decree is already notarized giving me permission. 

She signed the custody agreement before I even filed the initial petition, so that's already on record. 

Until last week I know that she hadn't even read her copies after we went through it together, as she wasn't aware of the court-ordered parenting class until I mentioned her being in contempt if she doesn't complete it in time.


----------



## GutPunch

I'd say things are looking up Z. Have a great weekend.


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## lee101981

That's sounds like you have things going in the right directions. I am so happy for you putting yourself out there
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

I've also documented everything. 

I have D6's IC on my side, who has commented in front of X what a phenomenal bond I have with D6 and that it will be better for D6 and I to move. 

I have my IC on my side. He does a lot of custody evaluations for the family court and has seen X and I together.

And I do have a lawyer on standby who I worked with to review my D papers.


----------



## turnera

Well, according to your soon to be divorcing wife, your D6's IC has sided with HER, hasn't she? Granted, we may just be talking about 4 months here, but I've seen seemingly docile divorces switch on a dime, when money or status get involved. The first time someone approaches her and says 'OMG, you're letting your child move 800 miles away? What kind of mother ARE you?' - be prepared for her change of mind.


----------



## zillard

I concede that this is assumption, but it looks to me as if she misunderstands D6's IC. 

She is getting that second hand from her own IC. I am getting it first hand. D6's IC does think the delayed move is a good idea... and it is being delayed (X doesn't know this yet). But from what she says it is good because of D6 and school... not her mom.

I suspect this stuff about us not moving has just as much to do with me and as it does D6. Both of the girls' counselors have seen that I care for X and have been worried about her well being. (X and I did have a session together with her IC). It will be interesting to see what her reasons are if she emails me. 

But you are right. I should proceed with caution and be prepared. We all know by now that a DS can change their mind on a dime.


----------



## lee101981

I think no matter what goes on in a marriage, the first and formost goal should be doing what is best for the kids involved. It is not about us adults it is about the kids..... No matter what


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> I think no matter what goes on in a marriage, the first and formost goal should be doing what is best for the kids involved. It is not about us adults it is about the kids..... No matter what


Absolutely!

Her first response to "Why" was *"then I'll be stuck"*.


----------



## lee101981

Cause to her it is about her not what is about the child.


----------



## HappyKaty

I'm still appalled that she agreed to you taking her daughter out of state.

Shame on her face!

There's absolutely no way in hell I would ever allow my child to be taken away from me.

The fact that she can smell reality, now, let's me know she was just trying to call your bluff, in the beginning, so she could explore other possibilities.

I'd bet, upon the agreement, she never thought it'd get this far.


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> Cause to her it is about her not what is about the child.


Which is part of what leads me to believe this may have more to do with me. 

The last two times she's really lashed out have been:

1. After she found out I had plans New Years Eve.
2. After she saw me setting up a date on FB. 

Wanting what she can't have. Right now she CAN have D6 more often. She chooses not to.


----------



## zillard

Ironic that she says she'll be stuck if we move. 

When she asked for divorce she said she felt stuck in the M. 

:slap:


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## zillard

So when should I inform her that I already did a walk through with the real estate agent and set a date for listing the house?

thoughts?


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## lee101981

Asap- wouldn't you want to know if it was the other way around?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> So when should I inform her that I already did a walk through with the real estate agent and set a date for listing the house?
> 
> thoughts?


Why was she not involved with that decision?


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> Why was she not involved with that decision?


We talked about it. She agreed with the agent choice. We told D6 of the move last weekend so that I could. 

She agreed to a list date right after Vday. 

She just doesn't know of the decision to push it back a bit in order to avoid repaying the 1st time homebuyer credit. 

Nothing is set in stone yet. Nothing has been signed.


----------



## zillard

I'm just thinking about whether I should email her now about it, or wait until I drop of D6 tomorrow and go over the comps, pricing, etc in person. 

I guess I'm just falling into the trap of anticipating how the timing will effect her response as to why she and her IC think I should wait. But... that's manipulation. 

I'll shoot her an email now letting her know I met with the agent and would like to go over the details tomorrow, unless she would prefer them via email.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> I'm just thinking about whether I should email her now about it, or wait until I drop of D6 tomorrow and go over the comps, pricing, etc in person.
> 
> I guess I'm just falling into the trap of anticipating how the timing will effect her response as to why she and her IC think I should wait. But... that's manipulation.
> 
> I'll shoot her an email now letting her know I met with the agent and would like to go over the details tomorrow, unless she would prefer them via email.


I was about to ask... What difference would it make?


Pb.


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## lee101981

Treat the situation they way you would want her to treat it with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

She wants info via email and then to discuss tomorrow. 

I even got a please and thank you.


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## lee101981

zillard said:


> She wants info via email and then to discuss tomorrow.
> 
> I even got a please and thank you.


Good!


----------



## whitehawk

zillard said:


> Oh boy.
> 
> Went to D6's awards assembly. X did show up. I gave her a smile as she entered and she came and sat with me. DD walked in with her class.
> 
> X commented, "Good job with her pig tails!"
> 
> I replied "I've got it covered."
> 
> She asked about D6. I said she's doing well but told her about her breakdown and saying she doesn't want to move unless mom moves too.
> 
> X - "I was talking with my IC and we don't think you and D6 should move right away."
> 
> Z - "Oh yeah? Why?"
> 
> X - "Because if I'm here working on myself (getting help) and you two leave, then I'll be stuck. [My IC] and [D6's IC] were talking about it and agree."
> 
> Z - "You're not stuck anywhere. What do you mean?"
> 
> X - "Nevermind. I'll try to formulate it in an email for you"
> 
> Interesting, as yesterday when I was talking with D6's IC (a day after X's IC appt) I told her about how the move may be delayed until May. I mentioned that it would be good for D6 though to finish up most of the school year and also have more weekends with her mom.
> 
> D6's IC said, yes, she's very connected at her school and tying up that loose end would be good. But she's not sure more weekends with her mom will be. She doesn't think X is ready for that and may not take extra time with her daughter even if it's available.
> 
> So we'll see how the email turns out. If she sends one. But I'm proceeding as planned. I have no reason to stay here.
> 
> Meanwhile I'm still conversing nightly with an old female friend in my hometown. She's in a great spot in her life. Focused on her daughter. She doesn't drink or associate with her old friends who do a lot. She's spoken of how she's found peace and happiness being single and how relationships are wonderful but she doesn't need one to feel complete. All good signs.
> 
> I also have a date next Saturday with a woman I had a crush on in high school who now lives in the area. Nothing too formal just a casual dinner and then hanging with some friends.
> 
> And I met a new single mom at the school who has expressed excitement that we get to see each other every day while waiting for pickup.




hu , i like that one " because i'll be stuck " gee she's really considerate isn't she !.

still , personally i wouldn't be rushing of anywhere just yet. i'm hoping the 12 mths to finish this house first gives us all time to find our way better through this nightmare and for my daughter to adjust .
she's only 1o mins away right now and that really really helps us both knowing that me or her can be so close and there in a second if needed. i can be so much more involved with her and her stuff too.

ps , congrats on the love life to z , huge help i'll bet .


----------



## zillard

whitehawk said:


> hu , i like that one " because i'll be stuck " gee she's really considerate isn't she !.
> 
> still , personally i wouldn't be rushing of anywhere just yet. i'm hoping the 12 mths to finish this house first gives us all time to find our way better through this nightmare and for my daughter to adjust .
> she's only 1o mins away right now and that really really helps us both knowing that me or her can be so close and there in a second if needed. i can be so much more involved with her and her stuff too.
> 
> ps , congrats on the love life to z , huge help i'll bet .


Well as it is now I'm not going anywhere for 4 months - longer if the house doesn't get under contract quickly after listing.

And that's ok. I can live with that. It's really a drop in the bucket.


----------



## whitehawk

tell you what z , i just saw my x in town sipping coffee in the main street and talking to people as they walk by , with the new guy.

no fkg wonder your going 800miles away.
i don't wanna be anywhere near this [email protected], or her new life, or tiny town gossip. 
it reminded me of just how sickening all this stuff has been .

trouble is i want as much of a life with my daughter as possible.


----------



## zillard

whitehawk said:


> tell you what z , i just saw my x in town sipping coffee in the main street and talking to people as they walk by , with the new guy.
> 
> no fkg wonder your going 800miles away.
> i don't wanna be anywhere near this [email protected], or her new life, or tiny town gossip.
> it reminded me of just how sickening all this stuff has been .
> 
> trouble is i want as much of a life with my daughter as possible.


That's where I lucked out man. I don't have to worry as much about my daughter because I know she's in good hands. :smthumbup:


----------



## zillard

Update:

Dropped off D6 at X's apt. She didn't answer the door. Had to call her to wake her up - 1pm. 

After doing the D6 thing I asked if she read my email re: the house. She said she hadn't. I asked if she wanted to go over it (I had all the papers with the same info I emailed her). 

X - "No. Not after what you did yesterday." 

Z - What do you mean? 

X - After what I said (at the school about her not wanting me to move right away) you got mad and then texted me later about the house. That was rude. 

Z - I was simply informing you about the house. Would you like me to update you on the house and include you in the decisions?

X - Well yeah. But you were mad.

Z - I can understand how you saw it that way, but I was not angry. I was confused. Still am. What did you mean?

X - I meant exactly what I said.

Z - Ok. What did you mean about being "stuck" if I move. 

X - Let's talk about it when.... it's not right now.

Z - Ok. Whenever you are ready.

Note: remember how she saw me setting up a date next Saturday night on FB... before I blocked her?

She then told me that she had an unexpected Saturday night shift at work next weekend (on her only night w/D6). She has never had to work a Saturday night at that job. It reeked of an attempt to sabotage my date plans.

Z - No problem!

X - Well I'll try to get out of it, but not sure if I can.

Z - No problem. Just let me know if you have to work and what you want to do about it.

X - Well I'll try my hardest to get out of it.

Z - Just let me know.

I think she was trying to get a rise out of me. I was tempted to call her on it. But I didn't. If she is willing to give up her only night of the week with D6 to sabotage my date... so be it. I'll have a blast with D6 and reschedule. 

D6 has an invite for a sleep over that Friday night so will just try and push the date back a night.


----------



## GutPunch

LOL She's definitely trying to spoil date night.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Was this night with your daughter a scheduled day for her?

If so.

She should be finding someone else to watch your daughter.

By no means is it a bad thing for you to take her if you want (which clearly you do and that's a great thing).

But, at the same time, there is also no problem with saying "sorry, it is my scheduled day off and I have plans."


----------



## zillard

UpnOver said:


> Was this night with your daughter a scheduled day for her?
> 
> If so.
> 
> She should be finding someone else to watch your daughter.
> 
> By no means is it a bad thing for you to take her if you want (which clearly you do and that's a great thing).
> 
> But, at the same time, there is also no problem with saying "sorry, it is my scheduled day off and I have plans."


Yes, I thought about that. It is her scheduled day and her responsibility. I did sort of leave it open by saying "...and what you want to do about it". 

But I am fine with taking D6. She's pretty cool. 

If this is a ploy I suspect she'll "get out of" the shift at the last minute. I would rather sit back, watch curiously, and take D6 out for dinner and a movie if she doesn't. 

The date is with a girl from high school who's good friends with some of mine and I'm not moving until May. So rescheduling is no problem. I think she'll be at my early bday party that a friend is planning the following Saturday anyway.

I will be going to the bday party, even if she tries this again.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> Yes, I thought about that. It is her scheduled day and her responsibility. I did sort of leave it open by saying "...and what you want to do about it".
> 
> But I am fine with taking D6. She's pretty cool.
> 
> If this is a ploy I suspect she'll "get out of" the shift at the last minute. I would rather sit back, watch curiously, and take D6 out for dinner and a movie if she doesn't.
> 
> The date is with a girl from high school who's good friends with some of mine and I'm not moving until May. So rescheduling is no problem. I think she'll be at my early bday party that a friend is planning the following Saturday anyway.
> 
> I will be going to the bday party, even if she tries this again.


Set it in stone then.

Tell her you will take your daughter for the night.

Don't play games with it.

Take charge.


----------



## zillard

UpnOver said:


> Set it in stone then.
> 
> Tell her you will take your daughter for the night.
> 
> Don't play games with it.
> 
> Take charge.


Done. Sent an email recapping that X said she has an unexpected shift and can't expect to get out of it. Then told her that I will gladly take D6 saturday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lee101981

zillard said:


> Done. Sent an email recapping that X said she has an unexpected shift and can't expect to get out of it. Then told her that I will gladly take D6 saturday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would of done the same


----------



## zillard

UpnOver said:


> Did you say "gladly" or "I'll be" taking her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I said "I will gladly take her and plan something fun with her"

Good question though. "I will be" is a more definitive statement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> I said "I will gladly take her and plan something fun with her"
> 
> Good question though. "I will be" is a more definitive statement.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is.

Decide what is best for you and do not leave it open ended.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HiRoad

Z- looks like thing are like last looking good for you and D6

I like everyone else her am concerned stbxw will try to stop you from your move. 

I hope your i's are dotted and t's are crossed. 

Good luck on your date, have fun, and enjoy yourself.

Yes and stay firm show no weakness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

I received a response to my email about next Saturday.

More "I'll see what I can do" and "will try to get out of it". 

Then a large section about D6 talking to her about feelings. She says my daughter is mad at me because I want to move and that she doesn't feel comfortable talking to me. 

"She was full of questions this weekend. It was rough."

Of course it is rough. X literally only gets 1/7 of it. D6 has questions for me daily and I am here for her through her meltdowns. 

It is hard to believe that D6 said she is uncomfortable talking to me as she often opens up to me. It is hard to hear that D6 is angry with me.

But putting everything in perspective and being aware of the stages of grief, it is natural for her to go through an anger phase just as we do. It is ok for her to be mad at me... and understandable. She doesn't know the reasons for divorce and probably sees me as taking her away from her mom by relocating.

But I do not need to, nor should I, attempt to correct that or introduce any blame. My job is to be here for her, allow her to express herself, comfort her and give her structure. 

We'll work through this. We have plenty of time together to do that. Her feelings later about her mother will be much more difficult for her, I think. 

So unfortunate.


----------



## loveispatient

Zillard - It does sound like you've got a good handle on things though. Between IC and MC and making sure your daughter has all the help she needs to transition; it seems to me, that you're both doing a great deal to help her deal with what's going on between you and the STBXW. 

Yes, it's unfortunate. But you're doing a lot more than most I would think to help D6 adjust.


----------



## lee101981

There is always 1 parent that the kids feel more comfortable talking too.. and both parents know which one it is... I have been trying to spend alittle more one on one time with the girls but with being the only one here it is hard but I still try...


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> There is always 1 parent that the kids feel more comfortable talking too.. and both parents know which one it is... I have been trying to spend alittle more one on one time with the girls but with being the only one here it is hard but I still try...


It is hard to make 1-on-1 time with everything else we have to juggle through this... but right now is more important than ever I believe.

I was glad to hear that X took D6 to the children's museum this weekend and, at least from how she presented it, made an effort to be emotionally available and supportive.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> It is hard to make 1-on-1 time with everything else we have to juggle through this... but right now is more important than ever I believe.
> 
> I was glad to hear that X took D6 to the children's museum this weekend and, at least from how she presented it, made an effort to be emotionally available and supportive.


Hey zillard, when did you tell D6 about the divorce? My STBXW doesnt want to tell the kids, and we are prob a month out from finalization. Then, when did she start going to counceling? I need to start figuring out all that too.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Hey zillard, when did you tell D6 about the divorce? My STBXW doesnt want to tell the kids, and we are prob a month out from finalization. Then, when did she start going to counceling? I need to start figuring out all that too.


I set up an MC appt immediately after X said she was considering dating if we separated. The next day we went together and she wouldn't go back. I've been seeing the same therapist weekly since. He also does IC and custody evaluations.

While I was doing the initial D papers we both went to a counselor together to get tips on how/when to tell D6. We did it together about 2 weeks before her mom moved out. Then we started weekly sessions for D6.

We let her process the move out and D for a few weeks and then sat her down to discuss our future move. I would have preferred to have that talk closer to the actual move but she would have known something was up as I started preparing the house.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> My STBXW doesnt want to tell the kids, and we are prob a month out from finalization.


This smells of ambivalence. Seems to me she is not sure she wants D and telling the kids would finalize it.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, my very unprofessional opinion would be a week or so out. They will still be coming back to their "home" as i will stay there...and I was usually the one that interacted with them 90% of the time there...so it should be very home like when they are with me...STBXW agrees with that too....might help them adjust..i dunno.


----------



## lee101981

I think on some level that these know what is going on.. It is best to be upfront with them to a point.


----------



## Garry2012

They do, they have a clue no doubt.


----------



## lee101981

Then I would think te best plan would be upfront with them. You would be showing them that it is ok to talk about what is going on. It would open up the lines of communication. My girls are 7 and 4 and it was the hardest thing I have ever has to do. After we told them and put them to bed I got sick
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

lee101981 said:


> Then I would think te best plan would be upfront with them. You would be showing them that it is ok to talk about what is going on. It would open up the lines of communication. My girls are 7 and 4 and it was the hardest thing I have ever has to do. After we told them and put them to bed I got sick
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, i have lost more than a few nights sleep about it too. They will be devastated....because we ALWAYS did everything as a family...and a happy one.

Just curious. I will need to contact or have STBXW start looking for IC.


----------



## lee101981

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, i have lost more than a few nights sleep about it too. They will be devastated....because we ALWAYS did everything as a family...and a happy one.
> 
> Just curious. I will need to contact or have STBXW start looking for IC.


My girls are very open about it with me but not so much with H... They ask me all the questions and cry with me but not with him.


----------



## Garry2012

Ok. I dont want to hijack Zillards thread. Thank you!


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, i have lost more than a few nights sleep about it too. They will be devastated....because we ALWAYS did everything as a family...and a happy one.
> 
> Just curious. I will need to contact or have STBXW start looking for IC.


I first left it up to X to find one as she is very picky and said she doesn't trust ICs. Two weeks later she had done nothing. 

So I went to the school counselor and asked for a referral. I then looked up the recommended IC, made an appt and told X about it. I gave her the choice to approve or find another and I would cancel. She approved.

I recommend telling the kids very soon as she has already moved out or is in the process, right? I would tell stbxw that the kids need to told, it will be best if you do it together, but if she is unwilling that you will move forward without her.


----------



## Garry2012

No, she has been advised by her atty, as i have, NOT to leave. She is quietly going through her stuff, but the kids dont know (i barely noticed too).

They know we dont sleep together or eat together, and know we are fighting, but are not aware that it is at the point of divorce.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> No, she has been advised by her atty, as i have, NOT to leave. She is quietly going through her stuff, but the kids dont know (i barely noticed too).
> 
> They know we dont sleep together or eat together, and know we are fighting, but are not aware that it is at the point of divorce.


Ok. I was told 1-2 weeks before anyone moves out is good. That way it's not a shock and they have some time to process first, but not so much time that they start getting false hope that it won't actually happen.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> Ok. I was told 1-2 weeks before anyone moves out is good. That way it's not a shock and they have some time to process first, but not so much time that they start getting false hope that it won't actually happen.


OK...good info. My atty told me the decree will be final 1-2 weeks after mediation...which wont happen until the lawyers are open...prob a couple week still.


----------



## zillard

X came and dropped off D6. She hurried out as D6 and I were giggling and playing around. 

Guess she is still not ready to discuss the house and the move. I didn't mention it and am not going to push it. Maybe she wants to discuss it further with her IC Wed first. Or worse, a lawyer.

We'll see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

when is your D final? 2/14 right?


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> when is your D final? 2/14 right?


Yes. That's the day I can submit final consent decree for approval. Then our stamped copies will be mailed back.


----------



## Garry2012

I would assume its actually final when the judge approves correct? Mine will probably be end of Feb...we have to go to mediation first.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> I would assume its actually final when the judge approves correct? Mine will probably be end of Feb...we have to go to mediation first.


Yes. As soon as the judge puts the stamp to paper. I just probably won't know when that happened until getting my copy. 

But the court clerk explained it as a "fast track" process. No court hearings. And clerk went over papers to see if there was anything the judge might flag and deny (not putting N/A on irrelevant lines, etc.).

X did mutter something about talking with her IC more when she said I shouldn't move soon, so I do think that's the case. But you never know.


----------



## Garry2012

yeah, i think once we get through the mediation, which shouldnt be too bad, it will be fast tracked too. Hate to say it, but i am looking to put all this behind me and start working on the rest of my life.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> Yes. As soon as the judge puts the stamp to paper. I just probably won't know when that happened until getting my copy.
> 
> But the court clerk explained it as a "fast track" process. No court hearings. And clerk went over papers to see if there was anything the judge might flag and deny (not putting N/A on irrelevant lines, etc.).
> 
> X did mutter something about talking with her IC more when she said I shouldn't move soon, so I do think that's the case. But you never know.


So are you maybe expecting her to try to stop the D?


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Hate to say it, but i am looking to put all this behind me and start working on the rest of my life.


Start now! No reason the ending of your old life and beginning of your new one can't overlap (within reason of course). 

I'm seeing changes in myself already that are affecting my relationships with others, in a good way. 

The VP above me at work called and offered to drive the 2 hours from his place to help me unload when I move. Also wants me to consider stepping out of my creative role into management. Not sure I want to do that though. I really like the work I do. 

Spoke with my mother last night and mentioned my possible date. She nearly flipped telling me how wrong it is because my papers aren't stamped yet (she's very religious). I calmly told her that's her opinion and my choice. Then we had a great conversation. 

She called me first thing in the morning to apologize for trying to put her beliefs onto me - I had forgotten all about it. That stuff used to bug me for days and she never apologized like that. In the past I would get angry and it would turn into an argument.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> So are you maybe expecting her to try to stop the D?


I'm accepting the possibility that she may try and stop the move. I don't expect her to try and stop the D though. Maybe try and convince me to put it off.


----------



## Garry2012

emotionally i am moving on. Its hard when she is stil in the house, and the kids still have yet to go through everything. I know im not quite ready to date...which is fine.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> emotionally i am moving on. Its hard when she is stil in the house, and the kids still have yet to go through everything. I know im not quite ready to date...which is fine.


It is very difficult to detach while in the same house! While I often miss her I'm glad she's out now. 

I'm not ready for a new relationship, nor intimacy yet. But do like getting out of the house and mingling with women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

yeah...thats where i am...i do want to get out etc....DEF no relationship...might be a few months...hopefully not longer


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> Spoke with my mother last night and mentioned my possible date. She nearly flipped telling me how wrong it is because my papers aren't stamped yet (she's very religious). I calmly told her that's her opinion and my choice. Then we had a great conversation.
> 
> She called me first thing in the morning to apologize for trying to put her beliefs onto me - I had forgotten all about it. That stuff used to bug me for days and she never apologized like that. In the past I would get angry and it would turn into an argument.


 We usually pick mates who are duplicates of our parents...


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> We usually pick mates who are duplicates of our parents...


Excellent observation Turnera. I recently came to that realization in IC. It is usually a mate much like the parent with whom one has unresolved issues as well.


----------



## Garry2012

I have heard that before too...women pick men like their dads and men like their moms. though i am not like my X dad at all....


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## zillard

My X never knew her Dad. Met him twice. But I am a lot like the step father she had during her pre-teen years. Even down to the hair color and creative profession.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Excellent observation Turnera. I recently came to that realization in IC. It is usually a mate much like the parent with whom one has unresolved issues as well.


Yup, my s2bxw pushed her unresolved conflict with her Father on me. Didn't matter if I was genuine or even if I was "right".


----------



## lee101981

Might have to think on this tonight!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loveispatient

Not sure if H is like my dad, but it's definitely something to think about. It's good to read some of the things that you all are talking about. It helps me understand and move forward. 

I worked out today, but couldn't concentrate on a damn thing! I've been considering IC, maybe I need to just to get my head in gear.


----------



## Garry2012

My ex doesnt look like my mother (blond), but very similiar personality...and i will look that in my next spouse as well.


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## zillard

hope4family said:


> Yup, my s2bxw pushed her unresolved conflict with her Father on me. Didn't matter if I was genuine or even if I was "right".


I did this in a way too. If I felt I was being criticized unfairly or judged by X I would respond defensively and argue, rather than calmly asserting myself. Much like I have done in the past with my mother.


----------



## turnera

Garry2012 said:


> My ex doesnt look like my mother (blond), but very similiar personality...and i will look that in my next spouse as well.


 typical male response. When I talk about similar, I MEAN personality. Never even entered my mind to talk about looks. That's what men do.


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## Garry2012

Lol I did personality too! I am in NO way like her dad then ( don't look like him either) haha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Had a rough day yesterday. Seemed like all my worries, fears, and feelings of insecurity and rejection flooded me all at once. I broke down. Then out of the blue I got a PM from a TAMer asking how I was and providing me with the swift slap to the face that I needed. Thank you.

Then despite how busy my day was today, I was able to step back and look at the bigger picture and see with some clarity. Finishing up a very large project at work provided me with a sense of accomplishment which helped immensely. 

And after some hours of pondering I have some things that I'd like to say to X, but I write them here instead. 

I understand. 

I understand why you feel so much pain. 
I understand that this is very hard for you. 
I understand that you did not want this. 
I understand that you did not try to hurt me. 
I understand that you were hurting before I saw it.
I understand that you felt unloved.
I understand that you felt a need to rebel.
I understand that you were not rebelling against me. 
I understand that you were rebelling against your past.
I understand that you were rebelling against yourself.
I understand that you are trying to find yourself.
I understand that you tried to use the tools that you have.
I understand how you came to your conclusion.
I understand that this is necessary for you.
I understand that you cannot grow without this.
I understand that you need time. 

I understand that this was not about me.

Please understand that I now am.


----------



## hope4family

Thought about you a lot yesterday Z. Having a hard day myself to. You are putting too much of the past on yourself perhaps? 

Good bless. Talk to some family and friends and vent your feelings.


----------



## loveispatient

zillard said:


> Had a rough day yesterday. Seemed like all my worries, fears, and feelings of insecurity and rejection flooded me all at once. I broke down. Then out of the blue I got a PM from a TAMer asking how I was and providing me with the swift slap to the face that I needed. Thank you.
> 
> Then despite how busy my day was today, I was able to step back and look at the bigger picture and see with some clarity. Finishing up a very large project at work provided me with a sense of accomplishment which helped immensely.
> 
> And after some hours of pondering I have some things that I'd like to say to X, but I write them here instead.
> 
> I understand.
> 
> I understand why you feel so much pain.
> I understand that this is very hard for you.
> I understand that you did not want this.
> I understand that you did not try to hurt me.
> I understand that you were hurting before I saw it.
> I understand that you felt unloved.
> I understand that you felt a need to rebel.
> I understand that you were not rebelling against me.
> I understand that you were rebelling against your past.
> I understand that you were rebelling against yourself.
> I understand that you are trying to find yourself.
> I understand that you tried to use the tools that you have.
> I understand how you came to your conclusion.
> I understand that this is necessary for you.
> I understand that you cannot grow without this.
> I understand that you need time.
> 
> I understand that this was not about me.
> 
> Please understand that I now am.


You are a much bigger person than I can be right now. Despite looking at the big picture, I just see how much I'm hurt right now. But you're right, this isn't about you. 

It's always good to have a project that you can complete and feel like you've accomplished a great deal. I wrote a grant that I've been meaning to complete even if I was up past midnight yesterday. But that's OK, it felt good...  

Hope your day goes well...


----------



## zillard

Today is interesting and confusing to say the least. 

Just returned from D6's IC appointment. X and I went in to give a quick update before D6. Once again it turned into a full length joint session for X and me. IC saw D6 for 10 minutes at the end.

The counselor asked that we leave D6 home next week so we could have another joint session. We both agreed. 

She gave me a mantra to focus on this week. "I do not know what is going to happen". She pointed out some of my coping mechanisms that have taken months with my IC. Thinking of possibly switching as she seems better. Or maybe I'm just more ready to work on myself now so it's more apparent? 

I don't know.

This afternoon I see my IC. Will see how it goes.


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## Garry2012

soooo....why joint now? thinking she is looking to R?


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> soooo....why joint now? thinking she is looking to R?


Does X want to R? I'm confident she has no idea. 

If she does, her ego and frailty are in the way of her saying so. 

My daughter's IC sees the issues that we each have and how it effects our communication. The joint thing was a request from the counselor. Neither of us requested joint, it just sort of happened. 

I think daughter's IC and X's IC both would like to see us R. They've both commented on how different we are than other divorced parents and couples in our willingness to work together to do what's best for D6 and have noted tenderness between us. 

Neither I nor X mentioned R, but the counselor today said, "I don't know if we could ever get to the point were you two get back together, but if not this will help you have a good co-parenting relationship."


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, I think thats where we would be too. She is too deep in her ego, lies, and denial to drop D at this point. But a IC would see traces of what used to be.

Hang in there.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, I think thats where we would be too. She is too deep in her ego, lies, and denial to drop D at this point. But a IC would see traces of what used to be.
> 
> Hang in there.


Last week when I spoke with D6's IC for a little bit she asked how I was doing. Told her has been rough but working to move on and setting boundaries with X. 

She told me usually when one person gets to that point of moving on the other then sees them as safe and starts getting drawn back (something that we've all read here). Then said, "THAT is when it will get rough".


----------



## hope4family

What do you mean "seen as safe" and starts getting drawn back?


----------



## Garry2012

Security of going back to what(who) you know...i would assume.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> She told me usually when one person gets to that point of moving on the other then sees them as safe and starts getting drawn back (something that we've all read here). Then said, "THAT is when it will get rough".


It's more like, they see you moving on and can't stand the thought of someone else having you, so they run back in with their tidal wave of manipulation to make you understand 'the change' they've made.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> What do you mean "seen as safe" and starts getting drawn back?


Much like how often the BS does a 180 the DS later tries to come back. 

She was referring to relationships and trauma victims, who have trouble with emotional intimacy as those who they loved the most were also the villians - so they push their spouse away. But then once the spouse starts moving on, is no longer intimate, then they are "safe" for the trauma victim. No longer a threat.


----------



## HiRoad

zillard said:


> She told me usually when one person gets to that point of moving on the other then sees them as safe and starts getting drawn back (something that we've all read here). Then said, "THAT is when it will get rough".


This is soo true Z. Typically this starts the minute X finds out that either you have totally given up and show her true indifference. Or you have started to date or started another relaionship.

I have first hand seen the effects of both indifference and dating have on a WAS. It is tremendous, they for some reason, get drawn back.


----------



## HiRoad

By the way, glad to see you have so much control over you life right now. 

Even though those feelings come up from time to time, I am happy to see you abel to take a step back and reationally analyze the "why" this is happening and move foward


----------



## zillard

HiRoad said:


> By the way, glad to see you have so much control over you life right now.
> 
> Even though those feelings come up from time to time, I am happy to see you abel to take a step back and reationally analyze the "why" this is happening and move foward


Yes, I really think stepping back and analyzing it completely is a very necessary part of truly moving on without baggage. 

To truly let go I must learn to forgive her and also to acknowledge my own unhealthy patterns. If not, I will carry anger for her with me and also repeat my own unhealthy behaviors and bad communication habits.


----------



## HiRoad

zillard said:


> Yes, I really think stepping back and analyzing it completely is a very necessary part of truly moving on without baggage.
> 
> To truly let go I must learn to forgive her and also to acknowledge my own unhealthy patterns. If not, I will carry anger for her with me and also repeat my own unhealthy behaviors and bad communication habits.


Well spoken, i will second that. 

True self-reflection is what makes for a healthy realtionship.

Mastering the art of indifference.

Forgive, Forget, Move On


----------



## lee101981

zillard said:


> Had a rough day yesterday. Seemed like all my worries, fears, and feelings of insecurity and rejection flooded me all at once. I broke down. Then out of the blue I got a PM from a TAMer asking how I was and providing me with the swift slap to the face that I needed. Thank you.
> 
> Then despite how busy my day was today, I was able to step back and look at the bigger picture and see with some clarity. Finishing up a very large project at work provided me with a sense of accomplishment which helped immensely.
> 
> And after some hours of pondering I have some things that I'd like to say to X, but I write them here instead.
> 
> I understand.
> 
> 
> I understand why you feel so much pain.
> I understand that this is very hard for you.
> I understand that you did not want this.
> I understand that you did not try to hurt me.
> I understand that you were hurting before I saw it.
> I understand that you felt unloved.
> I understand that you felt a need to rebel.
> I understand that you were not rebelling against me.
> I understand that you were rebelling against your past.
> I understand that you were rebelling against yourself.
> I understand that you are trying to find yourself.
> I understand that you tried to use the tools that you have.
> I understand how you came to your conclusion.
> I understand that this is necessary for you.
> I understand that you cannot grow without this.
> I understand that you need time.
> 
> I understand that this was not about me.
> 
> Please understand that I now am.



That must be a great person!


----------



## zillard

X finally explained what she meant about being "stuck" if I move with D6 soon.

Said if she is working on herself and then we're gone, how can she prove herself. Then commented that she hopes something is terribly wrong with the house so I can't sell it.


----------



## lee101981

She could follow you and work on herself there if she wanted too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> She could follow you and work on herself there if she wanted too


Absolutely right, Lee! 

6 months ago she suggested we all move there as a family. I asked if she was sure. She said 100%.


----------



## turnera

Yeah. This is just one more way for her to prove her selfishness. All about her. For a minute, I was hoping she'd say she couldn't bear to lose time with her daughter. But nope, still all about her. So sad.


----------



## lee101981

If she wants to be close to her daughter she will!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Without accepting responsibility for her actions and holding herself accountable, she is probably terrified of facing my family and friends.

Fragile ego protected at all costs.


----------



## GutPunch

Ugh Z... She's sounding like my WW now. You've left some good advice on my thread go read it. LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Little does she know my family still loves her regardless. They've even offered to put her up when she goes there to visit D6.


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## lee101981

Keep moving forward!!
Very proud of you!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> Keep moving forward!!
> Very proud of you!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There's nowhere to go but forward! 

A problem I have is looking too far up the path instead of focusing on my next step. I don't know who, if anyone, will join me on the hike. 

Back to my mantra for the week: I do not know what is going to happen.


----------



## zillard

It's more than a little ironic that I must now embrace the three words that brought me here.


----------



## lee101981

You know where looking too far ahead will get you!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> I don't know who, if anyone, will join me on the hike.


You could do like my DD22. She has a checklist; if you fit any of the items on the checklist, she just won't go out with you. She figures it saves time, avoids getting feelings for people she knows she'll end up resenting. I think the items on her list are smoker, guitar player, jock, and not getting a college degree. Make up your own list, and you can have fun comparing people to it.


----------



## Garry2012

lol....be a fun exercise anyway...


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> You could do like my DD22. She has a checklist; if you fit any of the items on the checklist, she just won't go out with you. She figures it saves time, avoids getting feelings for people she knows she'll end up resenting. I think the items on her list are smoker, guitar player, jock, and not getting a college degree. Make up your own list, and you can have fun comparing people to it.


Done. See my thread in Life After Divorce:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/life-after-divorce/65594-what-your-red-flags.html


----------



## Garry2012

My MC friend actually said to do this too...not sure i can put EVERYTHING i want in a future spouse on there but..haha jk


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> My MC friend actually said to do this too...not sure i can put EVERYTHING i want in a future spouse on there but..haha jk


My IC recommended it too. Then said the next step is to prioritize.


----------



## Chuck71

Sometimes we see beyond the actual picture. With me I think my perfect age I would love to date would be 40-43. Funny that was in my prefer to date age when I was in my early 20's. But the age group I still am attracted to is now, not exactly older women but............women my age. I still would wish to have children someday so.....I am now forced to date similar age or younger. 

Z-I swear I thought I had posted on your thread before. I kept wondering -doesn't Z have a thread- lol now i know


----------



## zillard

Just as expected, at the last minute X says she doesn't have to work tomorrow. Said she does have to work next Saturday. But didn't ask me to watch D6, just assumed.

I told her that due to our mutually-agreed upon parenting plan, she is responsible for D6 on the weekends. I said I am willing to be accommodating and consider helping her out when I can but only if she asks. 

I framed it well, how my IC recommended:

I feel ____ when you do _____. Do you understand what I mean?

I would prefer ____ instead. Are you willing to do that?

No response.


----------



## lee101981

You knew it from the get go! 
Listen to your gut!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> You knew it from the get go!
> Listen to your gut!


My gut says I'm meeting up with a woman tomorrow night. 

The woman confirmed.


----------



## lee101981

Have fun with no expectations !!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> Have fun with no expectations !!!


My only expectation is to have fun. I know her already so know we will. I am not ready for anything more than that anyway.


----------



## Chuck71

Z-How cool....I must have missed it earlier. V Day is your b-day, was my dad's. LOL but he sure was not a saint!!! Check out Whitesnake-Here I Go Again.....it related to the three words you mentioned.


----------



## zillard

Very applicable song! The good thing is I don't have to buy someone else gifts on my birthday this year.


----------



## lee101981

You can send my some star gazers!!! 

If you feel the need!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

So date said she might bail due to weather. It's raining. Slightly.

I told her no sweat and I'll be there regardless. My buddy is now meeting me at the same place. If she pulls up her big girl panties and braves the rain then cool. If not I'll hang with my friend. 

No matter what... I will have fun.


----------



## zillard

One good thing about your SO of 10 years cheating on you is a random date bailing on you is no sweat! 

:smthumbup:


----------



## zillard

It's really a relief to realize that focusing on your own happiness is not selfish. It's healthy.


----------



## zillard

Last night was terrible. 

While putting D6 to bed after she came back from her mom's she broke down crying. She told me how mad she is at me because I'm the one who "decided to cut up the family" and I "don't want mom around anymore". 

It devastated me. I did my best to comfort her and she asked to speak to her mom. I called her and they talked for a few minutes and she repeated most of it to her mom, who did nothing to set her straight - simply tried to calm her down and told her she loved her. 

I got D6 to sleep. I broke down. Then I got angry. Because this happened right after coming back from her moms, I assumed X must have said something to her. 

I texted her. "wtf are you telling her to make her think this is all because of me? I've done everything I can to not put blame on anyone. Have you done the same?"

I should have just dealt with it and let it go. If she said anything to D6 it is in the past. If she chooses to say anything else to D6, it is out of my control. 

It's so hard to focus during moments when you're filled with hurt, fear and anger.


----------



## loveispatient

So sorry you're having to deal with that. I'm sure it's not easy explaining all this to your daughter, nor must it be easy for her to UNDERSTAND what's going on between you and her mom. 

Still, it sounds like you are processing and managing all that is going on with a lot of maturity. We all fail at times to do the RIGHT THING - I'm learning that it's simply part of this process of separation or divorce. 

Perhaps a discussion with the X re: topics of conversation with D6 might be in order to avoid something like this from happening in the future?


----------



## Chuck71

Z-No assume, I guarantee you she told her that daddy is "Darth Vader". Children are often used as pawns. My ex g/f #2 was, as was her brother, even after her parents D. This is your Ws way of A-getting to you via child or B-she is setting you up for an attempt at a 'late game R'. But don't beat yourself up, this was all methodically planned out.


----------



## zillard

loveispatient said:


> Perhaps a discussion with the X re: topics of conversation with D6 might be in order to avoid something like this from happening in the future?


I have tried. She claims the only things she tells D6 is that it is ok to have feelings and is ok to talk about them if she feels comfortable doing so. Also said that D6 rarely talks to her about her feelings (D6 talks to me daily about them). 

In our joint session the counselor asked X if she'd thought about how this will affect my relationship with D6. Because without knowing what happened and why mom isn't moving with us, she'll probably see this as me taking her away from her mom and abandoning her mom. 

X said she has not thought about it. Counselor asked what she wants to do about it. More "I don't know".


----------



## turnera

Maybe it's time for your D to know the truth.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Maybe it's time for your D to know the truth.


I desperately want to tell D6. But I do not want to jeopardize her already fragile relationship with her mother. 

I don't want to cast her mother in a negative light as she will already have abandonment issues when we move away. 

D6 and I have plenty of time to work through her issues with me, but she will not with her mom. 

She has asked me if a I miss her mother. 
I told her every day. 
She has asked me if I ever cry when she is at school because I miss her mom.
I told her that I have. 
She asked me if it was before or after mom moved out. 
I told her both. 
She has asked me if I wanted to get divorced. 
I told her no. 

This is why it's so hard for me to believe that she has come to the conclusion that it's all because of me, without her mother saying anything to lead her there.


----------



## turnera

So instead you are willing to have her hate YOU?

That makes no sense.

Plus, IT'S A LIE.

One day your daughter will hate you for real, for lying to her.


----------



## turnera

You can't control what your stbx says to her about you. All you can do is be the ONE PARENT who she can trust to tell her the truth. She needs stability, and part of stability is knowing that her father won't make up stuff or hide stuff from her.


----------



## lee101981

zillard said:


> I desperately want to tell D6. But I do not want to jeopardize her already fragile relationship with her mother.
> 
> I don't want to cast her mother in a negative light as she will already have abandonment issues when we move away.
> 
> D6 and I have plenty of time to work through her issues with me, but she will not with her mom.
> 
> She has asked me if a I miss her mother.
> I told her every day.
> She has asked me if I ever cry when she is at school because I miss her mom.
> I told her that I have.
> She asked me if it was before or after mom moved out.
> I told her both.
> She has asked me if I wanted to get divorced.
> I told her no.
> 
> This is why it's so hard for me to believe that she has come to the conclusion that it's all because of me, without her mother saying anything to lead her there.





I dont think now is the time to tell D about what is going on. She is not old enough to truly understand all the feeling that are going on right now. She will know in time that you are doing what is best for her... Please stay strong....


----------



## hope4family

My mother got ill at an early age in life. The biggest issue I have is that I was never told the truth of how bad it was. Until after I (and my two closest siblings) were shuffled around several times because of it. 

I would rather have been told. It hurt my parents trust and I didn't trust anything my elder siblings said for years for with holding the truth and claiming they didn't know when later they admitted they did. 

Go the honest route, but talk to your councilor first about how to approach it. Get as many ideas as you can. I am dreading having to tell my S why someday. But I have already had to tell so many people, that even though he is a year and a half. He probably already knows why to an extent.


----------



## Chuck71

t/y lee.....i was about to say that.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> So instead you are willing to have her hate YOU?
> 
> That makes no sense.
> 
> Plus, IT'S A LIE.
> 
> One day your daughter will hate you for real, for lying to her.


How am I lying to her? 

Everything I tell her is true. But it is my responsibility to censor myself as well. 

I cannot tell her about the affair. It is not age appropriate.


----------



## HappyKaty

I agree with you, Z.

Just leave it be.

A six-year old doesn't need such information, regardless of what her mother may, or may not, tell her.

A child that young is not capable of emotionally processing differing stories of that magnitude.

She will be just fine with the unconditional love and support that you provide her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

@lee

Its not about how well they understand. It's how well they comprehend. When I was 6 I didn't truly understand the gravity of all the choices adults make. But I comprehended the simple concept of "doing something wrong, or breaking the rules" and breaking those rules having a consequence. 

It's brutal. It's painful. It's hurtful. But its the truth. It's why I dont tell my kid Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy exist. Because when the time comes for me to say something serious. I want them to believe me.


----------



## lee101981

hope4family said:


> @lee
> 
> Its not about how well they understand. It's how well they comprehend. When I was 6 I didn't truly understand the gravity of all the choices adults make. But I comprehended the simple concept of "doing something wrong, or breaking the rules" and breaking those rules having a consequence.
> 
> It's brutal. It's painful. It's hurtful. But its the truth. It's why I dont tell my kid Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy exist. Because when the time comes for me to say something serious. I want them to believe me.


Sorry you dont agree with me... I have a 7 year old and a 4 year old and it is my job to decide what I tell them about what is going on in my adult relastionship.


----------



## HappyKaty

lee101981 said:


> Sorry you dont agree with me... I have a 7 year old and a 4 year old and it is my job to decide what I tell them about what is going on in my adult relastionship.


I absolutely agree with you.

Kids are just that, and should be allowed to be that.

THE main reason I'm so codependent is I was forced to be an adult too soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

Actually ladies I appreciate your line of thinking. Just trying to help you see the other side of the coin and weigh the pro's and con's for yourself. 

Every child and situation is different. I even as a child would rather know, then being used as a nuclear tool for the manipulation of the non-offending spouse. 

Only Z knows his daughter, and only you know your kids. So God bless you for your opinion. Even if we disagree.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> THE main reason I'm so codependent is I was forced to be an adult too soon.


This is true for me too, in a way. 

My older brothers were terrible and caused my mother a lot of pain when they were rebelling. I often felt the need to comfort my mother and tried very hard to do and express nothing that would upset her or add to her pain. 

On top of that my oldest sister, who played a big part in raising me due to the large family, was an abuse victim with schizophrenia. She has always been like my second mother and I also had to tread carefully to never upset her. And I felt the need to protect her as much of my family shut her out because they did not know how to deal with her. 

I carried a lot of baggage from those relationships into my marriage and it's no wonder I chose the woman I did. 

I do not want my D6 to worry about things that are over her head. 

I do not want her to feel a need to comfort me or censor herself in order to protect me.


----------



## hope4family

Man, i'm thinking this is turning into a cheap therapy session. 

@Z, I come from a large family (I think the same size if I remember from your previous post). 

Long story short, I feel for you Z, and I was exactly the same way as a child. In a very sad way. I still am. It sucks. I've gotten better at letting it out with adults in the proper forum.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> @Z, I come from a large family (I think the same size if I remember from your previous post).
> 
> Long story short, I feel for you Z, and I was exactly the same way as a child. In a very sad way. I still am. It sucks. I've gotten better at letting it out with adults in the proper forum.


baker's dozen. 

It is hard to change those patterns that have been there for so long. I was always such a nice, mild mannered, even tempered person. So much so that I became someone who could not even acknowledge his own anger. 

I let too much stuff slide off of me. But it doesn't go away. It just piles up at my feet, tripping me eventually. It's so hard for me to express anger. And then when I do, I feel like a jerk and apologize. Even when it's justified.


----------



## hope4family

I think people like us need to change our mind set and then on top of that learn all new skills. 

The problem is learning to express emotions and flipping from passive aggressive to straight up front honesty. (With the occasional sugar coating.)

Then its finding someone who understands why the punishment for breaking your trust is so "severe" compared to most.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Then its finding someone who understands why the punishment for breaking your trust is so "severe" compared to most.


Why is it so severe? Not just the punishment but the hurt too. 

Why do we put so much value on trust while we are dishonest with ourselves about our own emotions?


----------



## hope4family

Honestly it depends on what is being broken. I'm not talking about failing to do the dishes, or clean up your room. But then I dont think you are either. (In my case, the abandonment I feel has sent me back to my childhood fears and I am facing them with better results. But like my childhood, I didn't ask to be here.)



> Why do we put so much value on trust while we are dishonest with ourselves about our own emotions?


I don't know. It seemed that honesty of emotions only worked for so long. Eventually the hurt overpowered my will to remain calm and honest. As a result, I slipped back into to passive aggressiveness.

I'm not proud of it. But by the time I pushed to become "honest" about my emotions. It was already too late.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> I let too much stuff slide off of me. But it doesn't go away. It just piles up at my feet, tripping me eventually. It's so hard for me to express anger. And then when I do, I feel like a jerk and apologize. Even when it's justified.


Did we come from the same womb? :scratchhead:




zillard said:


> Why is it so severe? Not just the punishment but the hurt too.
> 
> Why do we put so much value on trust while we are dishonest with ourselves about our own emotions?


I have been struggling with this *terribly*, over the past couple of weeks.

I cannot allow myself to trust others, when, in fact, it's myself that I can't trust. 

The walls I've built aren't to keep other people out, but to drown myself in my very own emotional tsunami.


----------



## zillard

So... we put so much value on trust BECAUSE we are dishonest with ourselves.

Deep down we know our flaws, don't acknowledge them, and overcompensate to hide them from ourselves.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> baker's dozen.
> 
> It is hard to change those patterns that have been there for so long. I was always such a nice, mild mannered, even tempered person. So much so that I became someone who could not even acknowledge his own anger.
> 
> I let too much stuff slide off of me. But it doesn't go away. It just piles up at my feet, tripping me eventually. It's so hard for me to express anger. And then when I do, I feel like a jerk and apologize. Even when it's justified.


You're like my long, lost evil twin brother, zillard... Or maybe I'm yours. It's hard to tell.

I don't have a goatee, though. Do you have a goatee? That's really the only way to be certain which one of us is the evil one.

:FIREdevil:


Pb.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> You're like my long, lost evil twin brother, zillard... Or maybe I'm yours. It's hard to tell.
> 
> I don't have a goatee, though. Do you have a goatee? That's really the only way to be certain which one of us is the evil one.
> 
> :FIREdevil:
> 
> 
> Pb.


I have a beard and tattoos. Guess I'm the evil one.


----------



## zillard

I made the decision to quit smoking this morning. 

How can I truly love myself while daily sabotaging my own health for no good reason? 

I was telling myself I shouldn't quit until all this crap is over. That I didn't need the withdrawals and stress, etc on top of this. What a copout. 

Putting off treating yourself well only results in prolonging your unhappiness.


----------



## ReGroup

How much were you smoking?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

ReGroup said:


> How much were you smoking?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Before all this I was at 2 packs a week. Recently I've been almost 1 a day. Outside only.


----------



## ReGroup

Lol... Right there with you brother. 
I was never a regular but this whole ordeal made me take things to an entire new level. 
Now, I'm trying to put on the brakes - but find an excuse every other day to buy a pack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lee101981

Great news guys!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

I'm doin cold turkey. Had one this morning, made my decision and no more today. 

I know I can do it. Have gone years without before. And now I know for a fact I'm doing it for myself and not to please anyone else.


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## lee101981

Buy some gum
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BFGuru

You got this Zillard.


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## zillard

Read something great today:

All suffering of mankind is produced by attachment to a previous condition of existence. When we eliminate our expectations as to how the future ought to be a continuation of the past, we guarantee ourselves more peace of mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

D6 update:

She said if she drew a pie chart about her feelings on the day before Mom moved out, the biggest slice would be red for anger, the next biggest would be blue for sad, and then there would be a little yellow slice for excited (because of the new apt). 

I asked if she was to draw one today would the pieces be the same size? She said "no more excitement! half blue and half red". 

What 6yo thinks in pie charts? :smthumbup:

We now plan on regularly drawing feelings pie charts together. She's so rad.


----------



## hope4family

Good luck Zillard. I have smoked before, but never been addicted. However, my "ability to smoke" increased when this whole divorce process started as well. 

Needless to say, I still barely smoke if at all. I think I had one.......maybe.....I think Sunday. I'm not sure to be honest. For sure Saturday. In any case, you are doing the right thing. Nobody needs a pack or 2 a week much less a day. 

Put all the money you would spend in a jar and have D6 count it after a week. Then go spend the money on her. (Unless you need it to pay bills.)


----------



## Chuck71

RJ Reynolds and Phillip Morris covertly have divorce ads all over the web. Why? Increased revenue. Just a thought.


----------



## loveispatient

Chuck71 said:


> RJ Reynolds and Phillip Morris covertly have divorce ads all over the web. Why? Increased revenue. Just a thought.


Subliminal messing... :lol:


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> RJ Reynolds and Phillip Morris covertly have divorce ads all over the web. Why? Increased revenue.


No more revenue from me. I'm taking 1/2 mile walks around the neighborhood, through a long greenbelt, instead of having smoke breaks. 

Walking through the grass and tress, hearing the birds and leaves. So much nicer.


----------



## Chuck71

Smoker for 25 years here............moderate drinker........41 and can still hit mile at 4:30. Yeah my days are numbered. The day I can't push it at 5......decision time.


----------



## lee101981

zillard said:


> No more revenue from me. I'm taking 1/2 mile walks around the neighborhood, through a long greenbelt, instead of having smoke breaks.
> 
> Walking through the grass and tress, hearing the birds and leaves. So much nicer.


Sometimes it is nice to just step outside and your thought process changes and things just seem to shift into place...
Kind of like cheap IC session....

Keep up the great work... I am proud of the progress you are making...


----------



## GutPunch

Good luck from an ex-smoker. Quitting was one of my greatest accomplishments. I had a hard time letting them go. Patch worked for me. Been smoke free for six years.


----------



## zillard

I read the first 72 hours are the hardest as the nicotine is still in your blood stream - and saw that in past attempts. After that it is mostly breaking the habit and changing patterns / avoiding triggers. 

180 and NC/LC should help with that.


----------



## GutPunch

zillard said:


> I read the first 72 hours are the hardest as the nicotine is still in your blood stream - and saw that in past attempts. After that it is mostly breaking the habit and changing patterns / avoiding triggers.
> 
> 180 and NC/LC should help with that.



Bahahah So true... Seems I have a hard time letting lots of things go!


----------



## zillard

I had a discussion with my father last night. He called me to talk. This was unusual as he's not a phone person nor really a big talker. We normally only talk on the phone a few times a year - bdays and holidays - and then short and to the point. 

He asked a lot about how I was doing and how D6 was holding up. He opened up to me about his parents divorce when he was 7 and how it made him feel. They did not communicate reasons for the D with him, which left him feeling as if it was his fault. 

I told him my fear of negatively affecting D6's view of her mother and he responded like Turnera. He said that is true to a point but I can not let her live a lie. By not providing reasons (other than vagueness about love changing, happiness, etc), I solidify her opinion that it was my choice... which is probably also reinforced by her mother. 

Now to find the best approach. I still do not want to discuss the affair. Something to bring up with X in our joint session Thursday. Will give me time to think on it beforehand.


----------



## turnera

I recently broke my addiction to Diet Pepsi for the last 35 years. 

It took mouth surgery to do it and an inability to withstand anything acidic in my mouth for two weeks. Now I drink water all.day.long.


----------



## lee101981

zillard said:


> I had a discussion with my father last night. He called me to talk. This was unusual as he's not a phone person nor really a big talker. We normally only talk on the phone a few times a year - bdays and holidays - and then short and to the point.
> 
> He asked a lot about how I was doing and how D6 was holding up. He opened up to me about his parents divorce when he was 7 and how it made him feel. They did not communicate reasons for the D with him, which left him feeling as if it was his fault.
> 
> I told him my fear of negatively affecting D6's view of her mother and he responded like Turnera. He said that is true to a point but I can not let her live a lie. By not providing reasons (other than vagueness about love changing, happiness, etc), I solidify her opinion that it was my choice... which is probably also reinforced by her mother.
> 
> Now to find the best approach. I still do not want to discuss the affair. Something to bring up with X in our joint session Thursday. Will give me time to think on it beforehand.




I totally agree that you should speak to D6 but it is truly a fine line to walk. I would say something along the lines, that mom made some choices that I dont agree with, that affect how I feel and think about her. There will come a time when she is older that you will be able to be honest and upfront with her. Not word for word but I would say something along those lines. I would also ask her counselor...


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> I totally agree that you should speak to D6 but it is truly a fine line to walk. I would say something along the lines, that mom made some choices that I dont agree with, that affect how I feel and think about her. There will come a time when she is older that you will be able to be honest and upfront with her. Not word for word but I would say something along those lines. I would also ask her counselor...


I think many of us do our kids a disservice by dumbing things down too much at times. He!!, she was using pie charts to tell me about her feelings. 

What I need is a good analogy.


----------



## lee101981

zillard said:


> I think many of us do our kids a disservice by dumbing things down too much at times. He!!, she was using pie charts to tell me about her feelings.
> 
> What I need is a good analogy.


I agree!!!

But you don't want to make your daughter feel like she has to choose because of the actions of ur wife.

Good luck walking that tight rope!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> I agree!!!
> 
> But you don't want to make your daughter feel like she has to choose because of the actions of ur wife.
> 
> Good luck walking that tight rope!


No, and I'm seeing that already. 

She asked me if I missed mom. I said yes. She said, "that's weird because you're the one that wanted divorce!"

I asked her why she felt that way and she instantly clammed up. I didn't push it.

She's been idolizing her mother due to her absence and that will probably make it hard for her to trust what I say. I have told her that I did not want divorce but we decided it would be best.


----------



## lee101981

That is why I would not go in to to much detail due to her idolizing her mom at this point and her age. It is great that she is finding a way to express herself to you, shows se is not afraid !!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

"Sometimes adults decide they want different things in life than they used to think they wanted. Your mommy has decided she doesn't want to be with me, and I respect her and love her, so that is what we are doing."

Shows that it's the mom's choice, not yours, but also leads in that you say you respect her mom.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> "Sometimes adults decide they want different things in life than they used to think they wanted. Your mommy has decided she doesn't want to be with me, and I respect her and love her, so that is what we are doing."
> 
> Shows that it's the mom's choice, not yours, but also leads in that you say you respect her mom.


I like that. And it's true.


----------



## HappyKaty

turnera said:


> "Sometimes adults decide they want different things in life than they used to think they wanted. Your mommy has decided she doesn't want to be with me, and I respect her and love her, so that is what we are doing."
> 
> Shows that it's the mom's choice, not yours, but also leads in that you say you respect her mom.


I think that's perfect.


----------



## Chuck71

I agree Z.....the last thing you need to do is turn your ex into a martyr in the eyes of your D.


----------



## zillard

Well X finally asked me nicely if I would watch D6 for her this weekend. Previously she simply would not ask. She repeatedly informed me of her possible schedule but has a issue asking others for help. Especially me. 

I wouldn't give in. Told her I prefer being asked to being told and asked her to please take that into consideration in the future. She kept telling me and I responded that I would consider being accommodating but my willingness depends on how and when she asks. 

She finally did. Hopefully it becomes a pattern. But that will depend on my consistency.


----------



## zillard

And then the kicker. She wants to come here on Sunday to spend some time with D6. It would be her first time visiting with D6 here since Christmas. 

I don't think I'll fight her on that one. It saves me a 45 min drive both ways to drop D6 off Sunday morning. It is still the family home and I should not encumber access if for a good reason. And just like teaching a child, perhaps if I give her this small reward for taking my wishes into consideration it will reinforce good behavior.

And I can go catch a flick on Sunday afternoon.


----------



## Chuck71

What's her excuse? Super Bowl Sunday mommy bonding? I agree.....once is an occurrence, twice is a trend, thrice is a pattern.....

I had a spouse and children who both loved me BUT there's something -better- out there......that alone explains the rationale.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> And then the kicker. She wants to come here on Sunday to spend some time with D6. It would be her first time visiting with D6 here since Christmas.
> 
> I don't think I'll fight her on that one. It saves me a 45 min drive both ways to drop D6 off Sunday morning. It is still the family home and I should not encumber access if for a good reason. And just like teaching a child, perhaps if I give her this small reward for taking my wishes into consideration it will reinforce good behavior.
> 
> And I can go catch a flick on Sunday afternoon.


Put anything private you have away under lock and key. Change your passwords, your locks, your safe keys, anything and everything. I left some old divorce papers on the table once and guess what. She wen't through it all. Then called me later in the day wanting to pick a fight over nothing. 

My advice, let her visit. Don't leave her alone.


----------



## zillard

She says she wants to come over and cook for D6 and spend time with her. 

But I don't want a repeat of Christmas day, when she berated me via text for not doing the prep work for the meal (because you guessed it... she never asked me). Then she used the food in my pantry and left me to clean up the kitchen afterward. 

I am going to tell her that she is welcome to come over Sunday to spend time with D6, but if she would like to cook for her I'd rather she bring the cooked meal with her. This will allow her more real time with D6 and prevent a repeat argument. 

Neither of us ever watch the game. Maybe it's a good year for me to start. While she's here I can go watch the game and socialize at the corner pub. Their new pool tables should be installed by then.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Put anything private you have away under lock and key. Change your passwords, your locks, your safe keys, anything and everything. I left some old divorce papers on the table once and guess what. She wen't through it all. Then called me later in the day wanting to pick a fight over nothing.
> 
> My advice, let her visit. Don't leave her alone.


My computers have whole disk encryption. Anything I don't want her to see or have will be with me in the car. The safe is portable.

Not bad advice though. I will definitely gauge her mood and body language before stepping out.


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> She finally did. Hopefully it becomes a pattern. But that will depend on my consistency.


 We teach people how to treat us.


----------



## zillard

I didn't sleep well last night. Tossing and turning all night. 

Not sure if it's the nicotine withdrawals or apprehensiveness about out joint session tomorrow. Probably both. 

Had dreams about X. Good thing is I haven't had dreams of her A for about a month. Haven't been of good times with her either. Mostly manifestations of my anxiety about co-parenting with her scattered with some lingering hope for R. 

Back to my assignment for the week. I do not know what is going to happen. 

I don't know. 

Time for a walk.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> I didn't sleep well last night. Tossing and turning all night.
> 
> Not sure if it's the nicotine withdrawals or apprehensiveness about out joint session tomorrow. Probably both.
> 
> Had dreams about X. Good thing is I haven't had dreams of her A for about a month. Haven't been of good times with her either. Mostly manifestations of my anxiety about co-parenting with her scattered with some lingering hope for R.
> 
> Back to my assignment for the week. I do not know what is going to happen.
> 
> I don't know.
> 
> Time for a walk.



Yeah the mind plays games with you. I go from great, to not great to great again. I go from glad she is leaving to what is she doing.
Stay strong. She seems to be looking to want back in...this might be an angle. My day will come too.


----------



## hope4family

Hope, can be the pain that lingers like a knife that slowly ebbes us to compromise what we know we know would is right. 

It's not wrong to hope. Just don't let it compromise your integrity and resolve to make yourself better. This comes from a man whose username has hope in it. Talk about irony.


----------



## turnera

Hey, at least you have normal dreams. Every.single.one of my dreams is so far from reality it makes me wonder which part of me is the awake one.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah the mind plays games with you. I go from great, to not great to great again. I go from glad she is leaving to what is she doing.
> Stay strong. She seems to be looking to want back in...this might be an angle. My day will come too.


Yes if I step back, reread my journal and posts here, and look at the picture over the last month I see change. 

She has gone from ugly blameshifting texts and emails all hours of the night to texting at appropriate hours. 

She has gone from having nothing to do with D6 to calling her every single night like clockwork and actually taking her out and doing things with her on their scheduled time. Keeping clothes and toothbrush, etc at her place for D6. 

She's gone from wanting us as far away from her as possible "to save us" to not wanting us to move. 

She's gone from demanding and telling to making an attempt at respectful requests. 

She's gone from scurrying out of my house as fast as possible to requesting extra time here. 

She's gone from refusing counseling of any kind to doing IC and some joint sessions with me.

BUT...

All of these say more about my progress than they do about hers. I am setting boundaries. I am being more consistent. I am being less codependent. I am doing a good job taking care of my daughter without her help. I am working on moving on.


----------



## lee101981

I think is says alot that you are looking at the the changes in her but really see that this is about you.
You have come so far and it is great that you are able to see that. I see so much change in you....

Keep up the great work!!!


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> I think is says alot that you are looking at the the changes in her but really see that this is about you.


I do think so. For so long I trained her to treat me poorly. This just shows how fast real change can affect your world. She is treating me much differently in 1 month after years of training to do the opposite. 

Of course it won't always be smooth because others have choice too, but just imagine how others will react without that much previous conditioning from us affecting them.

We really can affect the universe around us by focusing inward and changing our perspectives and attitudes!


----------



## zillard

Yikes. My joint session w/X went over. Almost an hour and a half. 

Conclusion: she's still deep in the fog and has no clue what she wants. 

She started by saying all she wanted was separation. She expressed a desire for me to be open and vulnerable with her. So I was.

Told her I never wanted D, and how hurt I feel. I talked about the baggage from my childhood that I brought into the M and how I let her down emotionally because of it. I apologized for hurting her. 

I said her actions and dishonestly completely surprised me but I understand how and why she did it (without accepting blame for that part). I said I'm trying to reach a place where I can forgive her so I don't carry anger with me as I move on. Told her I am not doing this in an attempt to R but for me to heal.

I told her if she doesn't want to be with me and would rather be with someone else, I love her and want her to be happy. So she should go be happy. Because I will not share her. 

She sees "will not share her" as possessive and controlling, like she is an object. So be it. She switched her tune and told counselor and me repeatedly and forcefully that D is set in stone. 

Affair fog in full effect. She asked for openness and once she got it she was repelled. 

D is set in stone and she now says the house must be sold (180 from last week). But she wants me to reconsider leaving state with D6. 

I told her as a man I have no reason nor incentive to stay. As a parent I have no family or support system. I said it would be great for her to be close to her daughter but she is here right NOW and I have her for 2 weeks straight. 

If I were to stay and this continued it would not be better for D6. It would not be better for me either as it would be very difficult to be anyone other than D6's Dad. Plus me staying out of hope that X turns herself around when she is doing nothing to prove she is willing would be completely codependent. 

I conceded that I was willing to consider staying (in state) if there were drastic changes very soon. Counselor suggested she change jobs/shifts. She balked at the idea. 

Of course she did. She still works with posOM. Fog. 

So hard not to smoke. Day 4. Stopped at gas station on way home but did not buy any. Sticking to it!


----------



## turnera

Good for you! For everything! Please don't change your mind about moving. If she wakes up, she can come get you. Meanwhile, you and D6 will be getting what YOU need.

btw, the 'controlling' crap - pure fogspeak.


----------



## zillard

Counselor spoke of D6. Said right now she is stuck between two ideas. 

Either Dad is an @ss or Mom is abandoning her. 

It is easier for her to blame me. And because she does she is losing trust in me. So it would best for Mom to set her straight, not me. It would be best for Mom to tell D6 that she WANTS us to move away to be closer to our other family. 

The worst case scenario would be for both our relationships with D6 to be damaged. If X does nothing soon. I will. 

Went over the script Turnera suggested and counselor agrees it is good. But it does not address most important part of this in D6's eyes - us leaving state without Mom. 

Is a good first step that I'll be taking regardless of what else happens though.


----------



## hope4family

turnera said:


> Good for you! For everything! Please don't change your mind about moving. If she wakes up, she can come get you. Meanwhile, you and D6 will be getting what YOU need.
> 
> btw, the 'controlling' crap - pure fogspeak.


Yup. Agree 100%. 

Don't let her talk you out of moving. You are hurting yourself if you stay IMO. Remember that any drastic change made can be very easily reversed. For example: One day my s2bx is saying that she is going to hardly see S for the next 6 months. The next, she is asking if we can go 50-50 on custody if she can find the time. 

No real stability there.


----------



## turnera

Well, just add this then: "Mommy wants to stay here to be near her friend, but she wants us to be happy, and she knows we'll be happier and better taken care of back home."


----------



## zillard

In response to a question I did tell counselor this in front of X:

"I have no control of where X lives. I have no control over what she decides to do. She could choose to move and be closer to D6. She always has that option."

Counselor agreed and noticed X cringing. She explained to her that we are giving her permission to take control of how involved she wants to be as a mother, not trying to control her.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Well, just add this then: "Mommy wants to stay here to be near her friend, but she wants us to be happy, and she knows we'll be happier and better taken care of back home."


I think this would be better:

"Mommy wants to stay here, but she wants us to be happy, and she knows we'll be happier and better taken care of back home."

She knows nothing of a 3rd party and don't want to introduce that yet. Plus this leaves mom's reasons up to her to explain.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Yup. Agree 100%.
> 
> Don't let her talk you out of moving. You are hurting yourself if you stay IMO. Remember that any drastic change made can be very easily reversed. For example: One day my s2bx is saying that she is going to hardly see S for the next 6 months. The next, she is asking if we can go 50-50 on custody if she can find the time.
> 
> No real stability there.


Great point!

I could sell the house, sign a lease or buy another and 2 weeks later be in the same situation I am in now. 

"...if she can find the time."

Gotta love it. You chose to have a kid. "If" went out the window already. MAKE the time!


----------



## lee101981

Keep going on the path that you are on. You have already told d that you were planing on moving and it really sounds like it is the best thing for you...Great job on not smoking


----------



## HiRoad

Z, glad to see everything is well.

Good on you for quiting smoking, once I really decided to get health, suddenly everything seemed a lot easier.

your stbxw (or X cant remeber) is still in a major fog hang in there brother, dont let her actions dictate your new life.

You give me inspiration!


----------



## zillard

HiRoad said:


> Z, glad to see everything is well.
> 
> Good on you for quiting smoking, once I really decided to get health, suddenly everything seemed a lot easier.
> 
> your stbxw (or X cant remeber) is still in a major fog hang in there brother, dont let her actions dictate your new life.
> 
> You give me inspiration!


technically she's stbxw but I'm thinking and referring to her as my X now. It helps.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> technically she's stbxw but I'm thinking and referring to her as my X now. It helps.


Me too...i actually have her as "X" in my phone now...and try really hard to not use her name. Her name reminds me of who she USED to be...not who she is now.


----------



## HiRoad

Garry2012 said:


> Me too...i actually have her as "X" in my phone now...and try really hard to not use her name. Her name reminds me of who she USED to be...not who she is now.


I'm stealing this idea!


----------



## zillard

She asked nicely the other day if I'd take D6 Saturday. I agreed. 
She asked nicely if she could come over Sunday to cook dinner for D6. I agreed to the visit but not cooking here. 

No surprise, received another email from X at 5am. 

She informed me her Saturday shift may get cancelled. 
She asked nicely if she can take D6 if it is.
She asked if I would rather proceed as planned. 
She acknowledged it is now my call.

I am not responding until she decides whether she has to work or not. There's no point as I would like her to take D6. Is better for D6 and I need some down town. But responding now would not guarantee that. 

I'm liking the new politeness though. Enforcing boundaries does work. Like a mobile hanging from the ceiling. If the top piece moves, the others respond accordingly.


----------



## zillard

I'm pretty sure the cute girl at Subway with the plastic gloves fancies me. 

She waves and rushes to be the one to help me when I come in. 
She knows my sandwich. I catch her looking. More smiley with me than other customers. Always waves when I leave.

But boy she looks young. Maybe early college. 

Oh little sandwich maker - you fill my belly and your smile brightens my day.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> But boy she looks young. Maybe early college.


The younger ones are easier to train, yeah?


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> I'm pretty sure the cute girl at Subway with the plastic gloves fancies me.
> 
> She waves and rushes to be the one to help me when I come in.
> She knows my sandwich. I catch her looking. More smiley with me than other customers. Always waves when I leave.
> 
> But boy she looks young. Maybe early college.
> 
> *Oh little sandwich maker - you fill my belly and your smile brightens my day.*


I can make any sappy pickup line work. I approve this line.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> The younger ones are easier to train, yeah?


Ha. no training needed. She makes a fine sammy.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Ha. no training needed. She makes a fine sammy.


I approve this as well.


----------



## zillard

Surprise! 

X's mysterious Saturday shift was cancelled again on Friday night. Just in time for me to have no plans on Saturday. 

Letting her take D6. 

3:20 am - Five texts in three minutes. 

Thanks for letting her take D6. 
Stuff she ordered for D6 should be in the mail today at her place.
Apologies for sending late night texts.
Asking permission to send D6 home with extra food for us on Sunday.

Not responding. She broke my no late night contact again. Maybe she thinks it's ok this time because she is now polite and offering food. 

Clearly one way to my heart is through my stomach - she knows that. Testing.


----------



## lee101981

zillard said:


> Surprise!
> 
> X's mysterious Saturday shift was cancelled again on Friday night. Just in time for me to have no plans on Saturday.
> 
> Letting her take D6.
> 
> 3:20 am - Five texts in three minutes.
> 
> Thanks for letting her take D6.
> Stuff she ordered for D6 should be in the mail today at her place.
> Apologies for sending late night texts.
> Asking permission to send D6 home with extra food for us on Sunday.
> 
> Not responding. She broke my no late night contact again. Maybe she thinks it's ok this time because she is now polite and offering food.
> 
> Clearly one way to my heart is through my stomach - she knows that. Testing.




Thats ok Zillard we are going to pass the test with flying colors... Cant believe the tests of these people...
Have a great night me and the girls are going to have a netflix night


----------



## zillard

Ha! Well this may explain things. While dropping off D6 X mentioned that she received the statement of benefits from my doctor (my std screenings). "Wow you lab work was expensive! Insurance paid a ton".

She was being extra chatty and nice. We laughed together at D6 being silly. I told her she can cook and send over whatever she wants... For D6. I left in a good mood as usual. She wasn't all nervous this time like she normally is. 

Before I got back I had two emails from here about D6.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lee101981

Haha I think it is better to be safe the sorry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

and the spiral begins. She called. I let it go to voicemail. 

She's getting collection letters from a creditor, doesn't remember having the account, and looking to me for help. 

Not my problem anymore. That's what happens when you haven't paid a bill or gone grocery shopping in years then decide to be single. You have to adjust... all on your own.


----------



## zillard

lee101981 said:


> Haha I think it is better to be safe the sorry


Yes. Thankfully I am in the clear!

Just picked up a yoga mat. Gonna give it a go. I don't need to lose weight - have always had a high metabolism. Might as well try something calming that increases flexibility.


----------



## turnera

"stbx, you fired me as your husband. I have no concern for your problems any more. Ask your boyfriend."


----------



## whitehawk

[email protected] she's everywhere isn't she. 
Sounds like maybe what she really needs is a yr or so single to get [email protected] out of her system and figure herself out but she's cornered to so there's lots of chopping and changing , then your daughter , you .

ls she actually having an A z ? Sorry mate read heaps but not all , still can't tell.

Just personally , l'd hate the thought of separating your daughter from her mum with too much distance even if your not back together , but can see your dilemma .

l'd rather clear right outa this area too , she can keep her new life if that's how it's gotta be . lt's just my daughter.

l'm hoping if l take the time to finish the house first , 12 mths or so , some brilliant solution comes to me .


----------



## Chuck71

High ground, watch her drown. I've been watching mine. Well not as much.....have a nice gal occupying my time a bit.


----------



## zillard

whitehawk said:


> [email protected] she's everywhere isn't she.
> Sounds like maybe what she really needs is a yr or so single to get [email protected] out of her system and figure herself out


I agree. But won't wait around for that to maybe happen. I deserve and expect someone who knows they want to be with me. 



whitehawk said:


> but she's cornered to so there's lots of chopping and changing , then your daughter , you .


Yes. She painted herself into a corner and has no idea what to do. The solution is clear. Suck it up and walk through the paint and then work hard to clean up the mess.



whitehawk said:


> ls she actually having an A z ? Sorry mate read heaps but not all , still can't tell.


She had an EA with a coworker. Stayed at his house multiple times. Admitted to kissing but very skeptical that is all. No idea if they are still involved. He sent me a message saying he was no longer in the picture. Still works with him though and wont change shifts to have more time with D6. 

She is at least still infatuated.



whitehawk said:


> Just personally , l'd hate the thought of separating your daughter from her mum with too much distance even if your not back together , but can see your dilemma .


I hate it too. But why stay if she is so close and still so uninvolved? I would love for her to have 50/50... if she was interested and stable. 

Come summer here, I would have to put D6 in daycare so I can work. There she can be with her grandparents, aunts and cousins. Her mother can come visit as she pleases and always has the option of moving closer.


----------



## Garry2012

turnera said:


> "stbx, you fired me as your husband. I have no concern for your problems any more. Ask your boyfriend."


I used like a couple times yesterday.


----------



## zillard

I went to the corner pub last night as they just installed pool tables. I've only been there a handful of times. Walked in and the cute bartender yelled across the room that she had a dream about me and ran over to give me a free drink.

Had fun playing pool. Met a few more people in my neighborhood. Some guy tried to pick a fight with me out of the blue. I treated him like X and then walked away. He then got kicked out. 

Met two women and played pool for quite a while. The cute one lost custody of her daughter. The other one got angry because I wouldn't take her home. 

After a few drinks I slipped up and had a cigarette. Then another one. Became disappointed in myself and the scene so switched to water and ended up spending more time with the employees than the patrons. 

Pubs are a great place to meet people I don't want to know. It feels good to be complimented and desired but I want to be known and desired. At least I know the bartender's interest is genuine - the only sober woman in the joint.


----------



## whitehawk

Wow you lucky thing you. That's it I'm getting out to a few pubs again.

z , your bottom paragraph , all the guys round here wondering why their girls must go clubbing , drinking .
you summed it up in a nutshell , that's why ! 
a girls ego never dies :scratchhead:


----------



## zillard

It's true Hawk, 

It's all about the attention from the opposite sex. And that's why it's addictive. The wayward spouse goes to clubs and bars for the ego stroke. And it feels good. And since many think with their feelings rather than their heads, they think that the attraction is pure and genuine even though it comes from a stranger and is all physical. 

Then they return home to their spouse, who genuinely loves and cares for them, but the chase, the hunt, the undressing with the eyeball type of spark just isn't there. And in their twisted heads they put more value on the attention they get at the club. Which they see as proof that their spouse at home doesn't want them like others do, or like they used to.

So they start disconnecting.


----------



## turnera

Yeah, the guys just go looking for something to bang and expect to come home to their faithful wife for the rest of their needs to be met, as WELL as more sex.


----------



## terrence4159

i just joined this site zillard and read this whole thing, my x cheated on me with her now husband she meet at a bar. you sir are a better man than me i didnt get the hint and tried to hold on to long (6 month old boy) 8 years later ive never been happier. i have my son during school nights (her idea) better structure at my house. i remarried 5 years ago she remarried once ink dried. great thing we are civil to each other, but my wife deals with her i dont.

One thing that does make me happy (selfish) her husband super controlling and doesnt work she does at walmart. Me 36 own my own house everything paid for and vacations all the time (when you move back home we will be neighbors i live in idaho) 

you are my hero for the way you handled it, hope nothing but the best for you and you little angel.


----------



## zillard

terrence4159 said:


> i just joined this site zillard and read this whole thing, my x cheated on me with her now husband she meet at a bar. you sir are a better man than me i didnt get the hint and tried to hold on to long (6 month old boy) 8 years later ive never been happier. i have my son during school nights (her idea) better structure at my house. i remarried 5 years ago she remarried once ink dried. great thing we are civil to each other, but my wife deals with her i dont.
> 
> One thing that does make me happy (selfish) her husband super controlling and doesnt work she does at walmart. Me 36 own my own house everything paid for and vacations all the time (when you move back home we will be neighbors i live in idaho)
> 
> you are my hero for the way you handled it, hope nothing but the best for you and you little angel.


Thank you Terrence! Its great to hear that you created a better situation for yourself and are providing structure for your boy. 

It gives me hope.


----------



## zillard

I did end up talking more with my daughter about the D. Thank you Turnera for the great script. She seemed to take it well but is still a bit untrusting and angry toward me. 

I suppose it's only natural though to an extent. I am the primary parental figure and really have been for almost a year before this split (due to X's work schedule and emotional disengagement). I am the parent that does everything including the things that she does not like: limits, schedule, homework, discipline, vegetables, medicine, etc. 

Her mother is with her one night a week and it's all fun relaxed time - none of the work. 

Tonight after returning home she said she had told her mother that I let her know mom wanted divorce more than me (that's how she put it). I told her that she does not have to tell me what mom said about it. That was a private conversation with her and her mom and its just fine to keep it to herself, or talk about it, either way. 

She seemed relieved. Hugged me and said ok.

Later she talked about the move. She said she's mad about it because WE decided to do it. She is seeing that the big move, and her mother staying in state, was a decision both parents made together. Which is good. I reiterated the benefits of the move while acknowledging that it will be difficult and why. 

Oh, food. X did not show with food like she requested. I did not ask. She told me she made a batch of spaghetti sauce from scratch (really awesome stuff) but they couldn't even eat it because her water was off today and they couldn't make noodles. 

She said they had to go to the store and get bottles of water so they could flush the toilet (but not to make noodles and feed D6 her favorite meal that was just cooked?). So now she must have a huge stock pot filled with sauce in her fridge that she won't even eat. She always made that meal for D6 & I and would eat something else. 

Weird. Not even going to try to understand that one.


----------



## whitehawk

zillard said:


> It's true Hawk,
> 
> It's all about the attention from the opposite sex. And that's why it's addictive. The wayward spouse goes to clubs and bars for the ego stroke. And it feels good. And since many think with their feelings rather than their heads, they think that the attraction is pure and genuine even though it comes from a stranger and is all physical.
> 
> Then they return home to their spouse, who genuinely loves and cares for them, but the chase, the hunt, the undressing with the eyeball type of spark just isn't there. And in their twisted heads they put more value on the attention they get at the club. Which they see as proof that their spouse at home doesn't want them like others do, or like they used to.
> 
> So they start disconnecting.



Yeah l'm afraid so z . Not to say all but the clubbing friendy types do seem to return after doing the married/family thing for awhile.
And others that have never had that also aften stumble onto it once they've had a bash at the married thing - hence new work crowds changes or whatever !


----------



## whitehawk

zillard said:


> I agree. But won't wait around for that to maybe happen. I deserve and expect someone who knows they want to be with me.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. She painted herself into a corner and has no idea what to do. The solution is clear. Suck it up and walk through the paint and then work hard to clean up the mess.
> 
> 
> 
> She had an EA with a coworker. Stayed at his house multiple times. Admitted to kissing but very skeptical that is all. No idea if they are still involved. He sent me a message saying he was no longer in the picture. Still works with him though and wont change shifts to have more time with D6.
> 
> She is at least still infatuated.
> 
> 
> 
> I hate it too. But why stay if she is so close and still so uninvolved? I would love for her to have 50/50... if she was interested and stable.
> 
> Come summer here, I would have to put D6 in daycare so I can work. There she can be with her grandparents, aunts and cousins. Her mother can come visit as she pleases and always has the option of moving closer.



yeah l know mate , it's very very rough stuff and so hard to find solutions too.


----------



## whitehawk

zillard said:


> Thank you Terrence! Its great to hear that you created a better situation for yourself and are providing structure for your boy.
> 
> It gives me hope.


you bet terrence we could use some happy endings round here.
My counselor reckons his ex was a phyco hornbag as he put it . but he's remarried and still thanks he's lucky stars daily sometimes he reckons . 
that was encouraging given he was trying to untangle my mess.


----------



## whitehawk

zillard said:


> I did end up talking more with my daughter about the D. Thank you Turnera for the great script. She seemed to take it well but is still a bit untrusting and angry toward me.
> 
> I suppose it's only natural though to an extent. I am the primary parental figure and really have been for almost a year before this split (due to X's work schedule and emotional disengagement). I am the parent that does everything including the things that she does not like: limits, schedule, homework, discipline, vegetables, medicine, etc.
> 
> Her mother is with her one night a week and it's all fun relaxed time - none of the work.
> 
> Tonight after returning home she said she had told her mother that I let her know mom wanted divorce more than me (that's how she put it). I told her that she does not have to tell me what mom said about it. That was a private conversation with her and her mom and its just fine to keep it to herself, or talk about it, either way.
> 
> She seemed relieved. Hugged me and said ok.
> 
> Later she talked about the move. She said she's mad about it because WE decided to do it. She is seeing that the big move, and her mother staying in state, was a decision both parents made together. Which is good. I reiterated the benefits of the move while acknowledging that it will be difficult and why.
> 
> Oh, food. X did not show with food like she requested. I did not ask. She told me she made a batch of spaghetti sauce from scratch (really awesome stuff) but they couldn't even eat it because her water was off today and they couldn't make noodles.
> 
> She said they had to go to the store and get bottles of water so they could flush the toilet (but not to make noodles and feed D6 her favorite meal that was just cooked?). So now she must have a huge stock pot filled with sauce in her fridge that she won't even eat. She always made that meal for D6 & I and would eat something else.
> 
> Weird. Not even going to try to understand that one.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> 
> On your D , l've not only been told this by a child shrink but have thought it myself too and that's why l chose to leave my beautiful with her mum mostly - but she's not clubbing .
> We know it i guess and can only do the best we can but a mother in early years , is so huge to a child. l remember even when l was a kid it was always mum we turned too .
> lt's not that they love dad less , it's different , like the womb l think of it as, mums their natural security blanket .
> 
> l''ve felt sort of hurt a few times by it because it's like no matter what we do or how well we get along but it's just natures way l feel and that's what the shrinks told me .
> l mean they carry her for 9 mths , breast feed , they're usually much gentler and more patient , softer , than we could ever be. so it's just natures package, it's not personal .


----------



## zillard

Ug. It seems Mondays are always depressing lately. I'm thinking it's due to the Sunday night drop off of D6. Don't get me wrong, I'm ecstatic to get D6 back. 

I'm thinking it may be X withdrawal. 

Wednesdays I'm anxious because of counseling... or is it because I get to see X for a bit?

Fridays and Saturdays I'm anxious and excited for the weekend... or is it because I get to see X for a moment? 

Sunday I'm anxious and excited to get D6 back... or it is, yeah. 

Monday I'm down. 

Not as far along as I thought I was I guess. Or maybe I just feel all this more this time because pickup and dropoff this weekend went well and X and I smiled and laughed quite a bit. 

I miss that laugh. Too bad she decided to share those lips. 

I need to snap out of it.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Ug. It seems Mondays are always depressing lately. I'm thinking it's due to the Sunday night drop off of D6. Don't get me wrong, I'm ecstatic to get D6 back.
> 
> I'm thinking it may be X withdrawal.
> 
> Wednesdays I'm anxious because of counseling... or is it because I get to see X for a bit?
> 
> Fridays and Saturdays I'm anxious and excited for the weekend... or is it because I get to see X for a moment?
> 
> Sunday I'm anxious and excited to get D6 back... or it is, yeah.
> 
> Monday I'm down.
> 
> Not as far along as I thought I was I guess. Or maybe I just feel all this more this time because pickup and dropoff this weekend went well and X and I smiled and laughed quite a bit.
> 
> I miss that laugh. Too bad she decided to share those lips.
> 
> I need to snap out of it.


Withdrawl from someone you love is normal. But yeah, try and snap out of it. You are not alone in how you feel. Remember, that person isn't the same person anymore. Even if they changed, it can never be the same again. 

It's probably harder on you then me. Continue to rise above.


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> I did end up talking more with my daughter about the D. Thank you Turnera for the great script. She seemed to take it well but is still a bit untrusting and angry toward me.
> 
> I suppose it's only natural though to an extent. I am the primary parental figure and really have been for almost a year before this split (due to X's work schedule and emotional disengagement). I am the parent that does everything including the things that she does not like: limits, schedule, homework, discipline, vegetables, medicine, etc.


Glad it worked.

Here's Kids 101: The parent who is the safe, consistent, fair one who gives unconditional love? That is the parent the child feels safe hurting and being angry at. Because they know you will STILL always be there for them. The one who's flighty, shows they care more about themself than the child? THAT parent, the child will scramble to please, fear to offend, and often even 'pick' - just to get that parent to care more about them.


----------



## K.C.

Withdrawal? Recognising it is the first step to overcoming it Z. You are doing great I think.

Its only natural you miss what you had/thought you had.


----------



## zillard

K.C. said:


> Withdrawal? Recognising it is the first step to overcoming it Z. You are doing great I think.
> 
> Its only natural you miss what you had/thought you had.


Yeah, would be much easier if I could quit cold turkey.


----------



## Chuck71

Z-It's normal. You miss who she WAS. I do the same thing. I kept our early pictures for that reason. That person was sent from the stars. Whoever she is now, I have no desire for. Deep down....you have a small hope the old person will return. Eventually....this will pass. We are scared of closure at first. We simply do not want change, even if we know it will bring brighter days.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Deep down....you have a small hope the old person will return. Eventually....this will pass. We are scared of closure at first. We simply do not want change, even if we know it will bring brighter days.


Yes, this is true. As that hope diminishes the anxiety and fear grows it seems. Impending closure. Nearing final date soon, which adds to it. 

I can file final decree on Vday/Bday but have decided not to. Not the next day either as that is D6s Bday. Want to keep those days positive. No matter how optimistic I get about this being a change for the better, there will likely be some lingering negativity about it for some years. 

Two weeks from today.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Yes, this is true. As that hope diminishes *the anxiety and fear grows it seems. Impending closure. Nearing final date soon, which adds to it. *
> 
> I can file final decree on Vday/Bday but have decided not to. Not the next day either as that is D6s Bday. Want to keep those days positive. No matter how optimistic I get about this being a change for the better, there will likely be some lingering negativity about it for some years.
> 
> Two weeks from today.


I"m the same way. It's a great challenge. But we need to not lie to ourselves. 

Your marriage has been over. Whether you wanted the closure or not. The day, (except for your kids bday) shouldn't matter.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> I"m the same way. It's a great challenge. But we need to not lie to ourselves.
> 
> Your marriage has been over. Whether you wanted the closure or not. The day, (except for your kids bday) shouldn't matter.


I dunno. I need to think on that more. 

I just already have to share my bday with vday. Don't to share it with dday too. 

But then again, it is just the day I file final. Judge probably won't stamp it that day so it won't be official D date anyhow.


----------



## HiRoad

zillard said:


> Ug. It seems Mondays are always depressing lately. I'm thinking it's due to the Sunday night drop off of D6. Don't get me wrong, I'm ecstatic to get D6 back.
> 
> I'm thinking it may be X withdrawal.
> 
> Wednesdays I'm anxious because of counseling... or is it because I get to see X for a bit?
> 
> Fridays and Saturdays I'm anxious and excited for the weekend... or is it because I get to see X for a moment?
> 
> Sunday I'm anxious and excited to get D6 back... or it is, yeah.
> 
> Monday I'm down.
> 
> Not as far along as I thought I was I guess. Or maybe I just feel all this more this time because pickup and dropoff this weekend went well and X and I smiled and laughed quite a bit.
> 
> I miss that laugh. Too bad she decided to share those lips.
> 
> I need to snap out of it.


Snap out of it Z!! Your better than that!:smthumbup:


----------



## zillard

Ok, out of my funk. 

Got out and exercised and finished up a project at work. Felt much better. 

Then I stepped out and went back to Subway. It was really slow so got a chance to chat up sandwich girl a little bit. 

She asked my name and wanted to know what I do for work, how my weekend was, etc. I have her name now and confirmation that she's interested.


----------



## terrence4159

Good for you Z and this funk will last a while. while i read you posts here i got the same pit in my stomach feeling that i had when my ew cheated. but you are handling it better than i did, i fell for the seperation need to figure stuff out line, that meant she needed time to make sure her now husband didnt back out. 

It will get better Z after 3 years of being single for me i got remarried and never been happier. my wife cant have kids but loves my son like her own (great thing she deals with the xw not me).

i was in a funk for a long time and really sucked when she got married right after the ink dried. the betrayal was the worst. we married young and after the kid she turned 21 and the bars way more important than anything. so hang in Z you are way ahead of where i was, good things a comming for you. (p.s. my ew living in her grandmas house never has money and husband wont work and super controlling i laugh cause its karma)


----------



## HiRoad

zillard said:


> Yes, this is true. As that hope diminishes the anxiety and fear grows it seems. Impending closure. Nearing final date soon, which adds to it.
> 
> I can file final decree on Vday/Bday but have decided not to. Not the next day either as that is D6s Bday. Want to keep those days positive. No matter how optimistic I get about this being a change for the better, there will likely be some lingering negativity about it for some years.
> 
> Two weeks from today.


For me the moment stbxw told me "i am open to dating other men" all of a sudden hope disappeared, anxiety set in.

The moment i shared my story with other men and women, went out, had fun, the anxiety subsided. People reassured me that i am a good catch.

Once i trully let go, I felt free


----------



## Garry2012

HiRoad said:


> For me the moment stbxw told me "i am open to dating other men" all of a sudden hope disappeared, anxiety set in.
> 
> The moment i shared my story with other men and women, went out, had fun, the anxiety subsided. People reassured me that i am a good catch.
> 
> Once i trully let go, I felt free


I still get a pit in my stomach when i think of her dating, or when she comes back someday as herself...and i will tell her no..sorry. We were so close...and now so far. 

It helps when I focus on the positive and the person she is NOW--i try hard not to focus on the good moments and the OLD her.


----------



## Garry2012

HiRoad said:


> For me the moment stbxw told me "i am open to dating other men" all of a sudden hope disappeared, anxiety set in.
> 
> The moment i shared my story with other men and women, went out, had fun, the anxiety subsided. People reassured me that i am a good catch.
> 
> Once i trully let go, I felt free


did she ever try to come back to you?


----------



## zillard

HiRoad said:


> For me the moment stbxw told me "i am open to dating other men" all of a sudden hope disappeared, anxiety set in.
> 
> The moment i shared my story with other men and women, went out, had fun, the anxiety subsided. People reassured me that i am a good catch.
> 
> Once i trully let go, I felt free


I've always told myself I'm a good catch. I think at first because I didn't believe it. But then I did... mainly because of my X and M. Now that they are gone, it's like that awkward insecure teen phase all over again. 

I know I was a good husband, with flaws. I know I treated her like a queen more often than not. I know I'm an excellent father. I know I'm talented with a good work ethic. Yet still the insecurity. 

Women are initiating contact with me, flirting with me in sandwich shops I've been going to for years, giving me free drinks at the bar, etc. I see it as evidence that I am becoming a happier person. Happy is attractive. 

Trouble is I feel it's also attracting X. So I've been pulling up my anger letter and list of cons to put her back in the right place in my head. 

It's precarious though - the trash can is right next to the recycle bin.


----------



## Garry2012

I need to put together a "pain/hurt/anger" letter for when X comes back too. Good Idea!! She told me I was a catch for years too..just forgot in the fog...


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> I need to put together a "pain/hurt/anger" letter for when X comes back too. Good Idea!! She told me I was a catch for years too..just forgot in the fog...


When I read mine the day after I wrote it, I was surprised at how nasty and dark it was. Had been holding a lot back for too long. Was good to get it out.


----------



## Garry2012

That and the fact that as time passes...even i may forget what i went through. I want to remember if she comes at me in 10 months


----------



## loveispatient

zillard said:


> I've always told myself I'm a good catch. I think at first because I didn't believe it. But then I did... mainly because of my X and M. Now that they are gone, it's like that awkward insecure teen phase all over again.
> 
> I know I was a good husband, with flaws. I know I treated her like a queen more often than not. I know I'm an excellent father. I know I'm talented with a good work ethic. Yet still the insecurity.
> 
> Women are initiating contact with me, flirting with me in sandwich shops I've been going to for years, giving me free drinks at the bar, etc. I see it as evidence that I am becoming a happier person. Happy is attractive.
> 
> Trouble is I feel it's also attracting X. So I've been pulling up my anger letter and list of cons to put her back in the right place in my head.
> 
> It's precarious though - the trash can is right next to the recycle bin.


Happy does certainly attract in general. Sounds like you're in a good place though... Women always want what they can't have when they see the other partner doing well..  Same goes for guys I guess. 

Not talking to "H" (initially) and dealing with the separation, he's now bothering me every day and talking about R. I'm exhausted from being in limbo, but like I said, I've been a good wife for the most part, not perfect. But darn close. Despite my perceived failings, I've been there EVERYDAY unfailing, faithful, caring etc.

So sometimes I wonder I deserve better than him? How do you know right? He's beaten me down pretty hard with his anger and animosity, it's hard to feel good about myself. I used to think I was really confident, smart, pretty etc. Then I think, "How the hell did I pick my husband?" Sigh.


----------



## zillard

loveispatient said:


> Despite my perceived failings, I've been there EVERYDAY unfailing, faithful, caring etc.
> 
> So sometimes I wonder I deserve better than him? How do you know right? He's beaten me down pretty hard with his anger and animosity, it's hard to feel good about myself. I used to think I was really confident, smart, pretty etc. Then I think, "How the hell did I pick my husband?" Sigh.


Yeah it's difficult to pick yourself up afterward. Especially when you've been beaten down (in any way). Mine was extremely verbally and emotionally abusive leading up to, during and after separation. Now that I look back, I can see how abusive she was for years - I was just in denial. 

My family even recently commented on how they've seen her be mean to me and put me down, and she was on her best behavior around them. 

So basically yes, we do deserve better! Our pickers were broken though. 

Time to fix em!


----------



## HiRoad

zillard said:


> So basically yes, we do deserve better! Our pickers were broken though.
> 
> Time to fix em!


Yes we need to train the brain and eye for the "red flags" and dont ignore your gut.

Most of the time our feelings get in the way!


----------



## Garry2012

I didn't ignore the gut.... But I let the "your just jealous" doubt my own eyes etc. zillard, the future HAS to be better than the past right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HiRoad

Garry2012 said:


> I didn't ignore the gut.... But I let the "your just jealous" doubt my own eyes etc. zillard, the future HAS to be better than the past right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is hard to ignore you feelings, especially when it feels soo good, kinda like a drug.

We must train our brains to be strong and able to identfiy the signs of a bad relationship.

You dont want to repeat the past, the future is def bright.


----------



## zillard

As long as we learn from these mistakes (including ignoring the red flags in our eXs) then of course the future will be brighter! 

I know I've learned more about marriage and relationships in the last 3 months than I did in the past 10 years. I plan on putting that to good use some day.


----------



## HiRoad

zillard said:


> As long as we learn from these mistakes (including ignoring the red flags in our eXs) then of course the future will be brighter!
> 
> I know I've learned more about marriage and relationships in the last 3 months than I did in the past 10 years. I plan on putting that to good use some day.


Yes thanks to our stbxw's we went to school on thier account for marriages/relationships masters degree.

It will be good to have in the future.


----------



## zillard

So if you remember, my X's grandparents had asked me to take D6 out of state to see them before I move with her. 

I hadn't answered them as I was waiting to finish a project I had done for them - retouching a severely damaged photo from their early years together. Well I previously finished it up and sent it off with a response re: visiting. 

I let them know that I was conflicted and am not comfortable going to so much effort (PTO, taking D6 out of school, travel, etc) until I have worked through my resentment toward her grandmother. I explained that X told me GM had encouraged her to hide the A from me, and this hurt as the dishonesty was the most damaging part of it in my eyes. 

I told them that I would gladly give X extra time with D6 to make the trip and would love to see that happen. But I currently am not prepared to do so. 

I also sent X an email (normal D6 update) and informed her about the request, my response, and my offer to give her extra time. 

------

Text from X: I just spoke to grandma. I'm sorry that you feel our issues are because of her.

Z: I don't. I feel she played a small part in it. That's what I wrote. Also wrote that I played a part.

X: She's really upset. She doesn't want to hurt you. Neither do I.

Z: I understand, but you both have. I am being open about the reasons for my decisions.

X: I think you've misinterpreted a lot of things that I've tried to tell you, for a long time now.

Z: I'm open to calmly listening if you would like to explain.

X: Your version of calmly listening is more like shutting down most of the time. 

Z: I'm open to listening. I understand I have done that poorly in the past. 

No response. She knows where I am. Not holding my breath. 

---------
Not surprising at all that a weepy call from her grandmother put her in a place where she can say she doesn't want to hurt me but 5 minutes later is right back in blameshift mode.

Of course I "misinterpreted" things she said. Because they were coming through a dense fog and she can't even remember exactly what she said to me, nor make sense of her own feelings. 

No direct response from her grandparents. 

Well. One more loose end handled.


----------



## turnera

No offense, but that was a wimpy response on your part.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> No offense, but that was a wimpy response on your part.


Not offended, but how so? Is it because I admitted a fault when she brought it up? It is true I have been a bad listener. 

But, I think I shouldn't have taken the bait by responding. At all.

They both have my emails outlining my position. If they need further explaining they can ask.


----------



## whitehawk

Ahh , l don't think so z . You knocked the granny back , you avoided things getting to fiery with the x but said whats needed , and you left the door open for her.
Pretty good going under your conditions .

I'm starting to think l'd feel safer if l was gay , maybe l can read and trust a guy better.
Shame though , can't make it so , l just lovem them females too muchem :scratchhead:
Maybe give everyone up , get a dog . hang on l've got a dog , good for nothin. 
back to the drawing board !


----------



## Chuck71

Z-Sometimes we have to 'play the game' to 'shift the game.' When you open up avenues where you admit wrong, they run at it. But when they have a chance to address theirs....they stop. They know the truth but are not ready to hear it.


----------



## HiRoad

Z - for me, who cares, i think i will be in LC with my stbxw for a long while.

As far a my stbxw's family, I know that they will support her no matter what, that's their daughter.

Sometimes it is not worth the energy or time to acknowledge the "other" families.

Remember, this is the life your stbxw chose for you! It was her decision to leave you, her decision to cut you from her life and family. Let her deal with it.


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> Text from X: I just spoke to grandma. I'm sorry that you feel our issues are because of her.
> 
> Z: I don't. I feel she played a small part in it. That's what I wrote. Also wrote that I played a part.


Earlier, you were saying how upset you were that she supported and helped the affair and yet has the balls to expect you to take the kiddo up there. Once your wife calls you out on it, you say well, she played a tiny part. And don't forget that I admitted MY faults, so you shouldn't get upset with me. I wasn't that rude and it's really just as much my fault, right?

I just think you'll set better boundaries with stbx by being VERY honest about where you think you were harmed, and setting the tone. It sounded apologetic and backtracking to me.


----------



## zillard

HiRoad said:


> Z - for me, who cares, i think i will be in LC with my stbxw for a long while.
> 
> As far a my stbxw's family, I know that they will support her no matter what, that's their daughter.
> 
> Sometimes it is not worth the energy or time to acknowledge the "other" families.
> 
> Remember, this is the life your stbxw chose for you! It was her decision to leave you, her decision to cut you from her life and family. Let her deal with it.


Yeah, my first thought was to respond "Good! She should feel bad! How the hell did you come to the conclusion that I think this is all granny's fault? Last month you were saying I thought it was all posOM's fault. Truth is it's your fault, you lying cheater."

But that would have gone nowhere good... fast. 

Truth is - two months ago that IS how I would have responded.

If granny feels bad enough she'll reach out to me and apologize. Or at least thank me for the project I did for them. 

If X wants to clear up her position on things she'll reach out to me. But I don't need clarification. I know what happened. I have it all written here, in my journal, saved in my emails, and copied from her FB with her posOM and her work friends. 

I am the only one in this situation with a clear picture of it all.


----------



## Garry2012

Makes sense Hiroad...just hard to see a family throw you out when you have done nothing wrong, and their daughter is the one who did.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Earlier, you were saying how upset you were that she supported and helped the affair and yet has the balls to expect you to take the kiddo up there. Once your wife calls you out on it, you say well, she played a tiny part. And don't forget that I admitted MY faults, so you shouldn't get upset with me. I wasn't that rude and it's really just as much my fault, right?
> 
> I just think you'll set better boundaries with stbx by being VERY honest about where you think you were harmed, and setting the tone. It sounded apologetic and backtracking to me.


This was before X read my email about this, which explained my stance better. 

I am upset about what GM did. But in the bigger picture of the M I do think it was a small part. I can't let my anger blow things out of proportion. GM gave advice in an effort to help save the marriage, it was just piss poor advice. 

I've learned in our joint sessions, with the help of the counselor, that X will not listen at all until she first thinks she is being heard. I must take this into account when conversing with her. But I should not accept fault or blame when it is not deserved. I don't feel that I did that here. 

Also, a problem I have had for years, and am working on in IC, is not being able to admit my own faults to others. In the emails to them both I explained that I am not comfortable doing what they asked until I can work through my resentment. I owned my feelings rather than put it on them - and required them to do nothing. I then offered an alternative approach.


----------



## zillard

I do always appreciate your feedback Turnera. And I do need to watch that I don't become too apologetic. It is a fine line.


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> This was before X read my email about this, which explained my stance better.
> 
> I am upset about what GM did. But in the bigger picture of the M I do think it was a small part. I can't let my anger blow things out of proportion. GM gave advice in an effort to help save the marriage, it was just piss poor advice.
> 
> I've learned in our joint sessions, with the help of the counselor, that X will not listen at all until she first thinks she is being heard. I must take this into account when conversing with her. But I should not accept fault or blame when it is not deserved. I don't feel that I did that here.
> 
> Also, a problem I have had for years, and am working on in IC, is not being able to admit my own faults to others. In the emails to them both I explained that I am not comfortable doing what they asked until I can work through my resentment. I owned my feelings rather than put it on them - and required them to do nothing. I then offered an alternative approach.


 Gotcha.


----------



## hope4family

The problem is a lot of what we say here is venting and anger and may not reflect 100% how we feel about it a week a day or even a month from now. 

For example, we always say, "find indifference" yet then we call each other out on not being firm enough? 

Very fine line indeed. But then again, I guess the vast majority of our problems brood from a lack of self respect for ourselves.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> The problem is a lot of what we say here is venting and anger and may not reflect 100% how we feel about it a week a day or even a month from now.
> 
> For example, we always say, "find indifference" yet then we call each other out on not being firm enough?
> 
> Very fine line indeed. But then again, I guess the vast majority of our problems brood from a lack of self respect for ourselves.


Yes, if you look back just over my posts today you see this. 

I said my first thought was to tell X this was all her fault and call her a lying cheater. That is how I feel in anger. 

When I am not angry I do not think this was all her fault. The decision to have an affair was, but not the many other problems in our M that I failed to see previously. 

The fine line is here: 

X being dishonest/disloyal conflicts with my core values. 
Me being a d!ck because I feel slighted also does. 

So I have to find solutions in between the two. 

Not an easy task.


----------



## HiRoad

hope4family said:


> The problem is a lot of what we say here is venting and anger and may not reflect 100% how we feel about it a week a day or even a month from now.
> 
> For example, we always say, "find indifference" yet then we call each other out on not being firm enough?
> 
> Very fine line indeed. But then again, I guess the vast majority of our problems brood from a *lack of self respect *for ourselves.


Ultimately, we must love ourselves enough to know what is health and not healthy and get out!


----------



## hope4family

Also, i'm not saying that your wife has more self respect. It's all just part of the script. The lack of respect/confidence for ourselves, is a big reason why we are passive aggressive. 

It was a contributing factor that needs to be corrected.


----------



## Garry2012

I reread my thread some yesteday, and I could see the stages of denial, anger, sorrow etc. Its interesting...yeah i use TAM as a way to vent, etc...because people here understand.

I do take some blame, but i still think the vast majority of it lies on her...she resisted any effort i made to work on us, and NEVER initiated any. I am very easy to get along with and i am a big communicator..she is def not. I failed because i didnt force her too enough i guess.


----------



## terrence4159

hang tough z you are the man, i think you handled the GM situation perfect you offered more time for your stbxw to take your D to visit. im not going to lie its going to suck for a long time, i never got a it was my ew fault i am happy with that did get alot of its my fault she was never home so we didnt spend time together (yeah).

Now for a laugh for all of you what helped me the most with closure during the" i dont know stage" i got a tattoo of a knife sticking out of my back with the EX's name in the handle.....ohh was she pissed. that was me closing the door (the now wife loves the tattoo knowing where i stand with her)


----------



## terrence4159

and when you move back home and want to relieve stress come on up to my house in idaho and we can go and relieve some stress....were talking semi auto shotgun with 20 rnd clips ak 47 with 75 rnd drums and the best sniper rifle that money can buy, shooting targets at 1000 yards awsome.


----------



## hope4family

terrence4159 said:


> and when you move back home and want to relieve stress come on up to my house in idaho and we can go and relieve some stress....were talking semi auto shotgun with 20 rnd clips ak 47 with 75 rnd drums and the best sniper rifle that money can buy, shooting targets at 1000 yards awsome.


....sigh.....

You better take him up on this offer.


----------



## zillard

Oh, this sounds like a good time! Hope you're in southern ID. 

I placed a backorder on a Mossberg Jerry Miculek Signature model right before DDay. Unfortunately had to cancel the order due to all this crap. 

The tattoo is hilarious! I always vowed never to get a woman's name on me, but this totally puts a spin on it, yeah?


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, after all this crap, that's the ONLY way I would do it... Unless it was my daughters name.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## terrence4159

why you sigh.ing hope4family you can come 2 if you want?

and garry i do have my son's name tattooed on my arm


----------



## terrence4159

and yeah i live in idaho falls. i have a brother in slc. i even go skydiving in odgen a few times a year now thats a rush


----------



## zillard

terrence4159 said:


> and yeah i live in idaho falls. i have a brother in slc. i even go skydiving in odgen a few times a year now thats a rush


sweet! I've only been skydiving once. Main chute malfunctioned and had to pull the reserve. 

Then-wife wouldn't let me ever go again. 

Now-X has no say. Let's f'n do it man!


----------



## Chuck71

last time i heard those words we were in jail until the next morning LOL


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> last time i heard those words we were in jail until the next morning LOL


Ha. The line I always look out for is "Watch this!"


----------



## Garry2012

been thinking about skydiving and taking a boxing class...


----------



## terrence4159

you got some balls zillard!! to go skydiving again when you had a pull away your first time. im nervous to go again after my last one where me and the instructor had misscomunication and i didnt flare when landing hit the ground full speed amazingly only sprained hell out of my ankle couldnt walk on it for 3 weeks was twice size of my other foot (5 jumps for me)

come and jump with us garry its awsome


----------



## terrence4159

and what made the tattoo i got on my back the closure i needed was the XW was every other day i dont know i just need time playing me till plan a worked out. the Tattoo shut the door on that knowing she wouldnt want to see what she did everyday.


----------



## Chuck71

Z-Ha. The line I always look out for is "Watch this!" 

or...............hey....hold muh beer!


----------



## Garry2012

i just might..but the whole shute didnt open and I sprained my ankle aint sweetening the deal lol


----------



## zillard

When I see X at kid swaps, I miss her. We exchange info on D6's well being, etc. Laugh together as daughter does silly stuff. Her good side.

Seeing her at D6's counseling appointment this morning, I do not miss her.

We gave the IC a quick update on D6. She's expressing a lot of feelings with me. Sadness. Anger at both me and her mother. With X she rarely does and when she does it is anger at me. She's never told X she is angry with her. I mentioned that I think she is afraid of pushing her mom away as she already feels a distance. IC confirmed. 

IC asked X if she had thought more about the house sale, D6 and I moving out of state, or if she was ready to quit/change her job to see D6 more. 

X said, "no, everything is still up in the air".

IC asked me where I was. I said, "well, proceeding as planned" 

As X and I waited out D6's session in the waiting room, she spoke. Asked if GM had called me. I said no but she can anytime. She said GM thinks I'm angry with her. I said I do have some resentment. That's what I wrote. 

She expanded on what she meant earlier about me misinterpreting things. Said in her initial conversation w/GM, she did not tell GM about posOM. GM told her that if there is any way to avoid hurting the one you love then don't say anything if something happened. 

Z - "Ok, but that isn't what you told me. When I asked you how you could be so dishonest with me you told me you were taking advice from your GM." I said regardless of the context or intent, she encouraged X to lie to me and I'm upset about that. 

I told her I was confused how she could interpret that as me blaming GM for all of our problems. 

X - I never said that! 

I told her to look at her texts. She did and deflected. Told me I blame everything on others and never accept any fault (she must not have read the other text). lol 

Z - I understand that you feel that way. I don't put all the blame on any one person... not even you. Every person involved in this is to blame for the part they played. 

She agreed. 

Z - I've repeatedly acknowledged my issues, apologized for them, and am now in therapy for them. 

X - You are going way too far with your assertiveness. It's like you're defending your territory. 

Z - I do have my own territory and I am defending it. 

X - You didn't hear what I said. You're not being assertive you're being a d!ck. 

Z - I understand how you could see it that way. How so?

She brought up me sending her email and texts re: asking me vs. telling me. She said they were angry, ranting emails trying to control what she does. I told her no, I was explaining my position and informing her how I would like to be treated. 

I stated that I do not resort to cursing, name calling and verbal abuse and expect to be treated with the respect that I deserve. 

X - Ewww. I'm not talking anymore because I'm getting angry. 

Z - If I have an issue with something, how would you prefer I approach it with you?

X - I'm done talking. 

I picked up a magazine and got through 1 page of an article when...

X (chipper as can be) - Will you send me D6's bday list? We should/she wants to/what are we gonna, etc. 


I do not miss this. I do not want this anymore.


----------



## hope4family

Sucks Z. But I am glad you are seeing it for what it is. Sometimes it takes time and interaction to realize that you are both are just in different places altogether.


----------



## zillard

She's a master at deflecting whenever anyone points out that she is wrong. Never admits anything and rarely apologizes. 

Every time she flew of the handle during our M - throwing stuff, breaking stuff, kicking doors, etc. she would eventually simmer down. Then act like nothing happened. She would never apologize unless I sat her down to have a talk about what happened. And every time I would have to start by explaining why I was upset. She would play it like she had no clue. Maybe she didn't. Which made the quick apologies that came afterward seem meaningless. 

She is still very much an insolent teen. 

That is not what I want in a wife.


----------



## Garry2012

Seems like when the rose colored glasses come off, you start seeing what was there all the time. I am starting to do that as well...we can both do better....heck, not dealing with stuff like this alone is better.


----------



## turnera

There's a great little book called The Dance Of Anger, that helps us see how to say no to people without them getting upset. It's about our anger - at ourselves - for caving just to keep the peace. It talks about how the other person will do what's called Change Back! behavior, to try to get you to be the caver again. How, when you finally speak up and say what you think, they try to paint you black, aggressive, mean, etc. But that you have to let them own that and not engage in the discussion. Good stuff.

And note to yourself: If you ever pick a mate who does that again, do NOT accept them just pretending nothing happened. Rug sweeping and death sentence on a marriage.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> There's a great little book called The Dance Of Anger, that helps us see how to say no to people without them getting upset. It's about our anger - at ourselves - for caving just to keep the peace. It talks about how the other person will do what's called Change Back! behavior, to try to get you to be the caver again. How, when you finally speak up and say what you think, they try to paint you black, aggressive, mean, etc. But that you have to let them own that and not engage in the discussion. Good stuff.
> 
> And note to yourself: If you ever pick a mate who does that again, do NOT accept them just pretending nothing happened. Rug sweeping and death sentence on a marriage.


Thank you for the book suggestion. 

At least my cigarette money is now being used for some good. I've been buying an average of 2 books/week.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, when the dust settles here i will want to read some books too.


----------



## Chuck71

Z-Funny how true colors show.....she does not wish to hear the truth because that means facing it. Accountability is a sin in her eyes. The breaking things....kicking doors.....that HAD to get old quick. Many issues are shown by those actions. Was that when she was drunk or sober? I know it sounds bad if it's when drunk but at least then, you see the root. When sober....you just pulled off a big band-aid. And D6 would possibly repeat her mothers actions down the road. Not a good thing.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Z-Funny how true colors show.....she does not wish to hear the truth because that means facing it. Accountability is a sin in her eyes. The breaking things....kicking doors.....that HAD to get old quick. Many issues are shown by those actions. Was that when she was drunk or sober? I know it sounds bad if it's when drunk but at least then, you see the root. When sober....you just pulled off a big band-aid. And D6 would possibly repeat her mothers actions down the road. Not a good thing.


Mostly when she was drunk, but not always. The blackouts - or conveniently not remembering - happen just as often when sober and angry.

Example - her not remembering the text she sent until I had her read it again. When those happen there is always a quick excuse. Well I was tired. I was sick. Are you really going to hold something I said when I was irritated and exhausted against me? Is this going to define us now?

pft! I let way too much go for way too long.


----------



## K.C.

Wow, and she will never change until she can own the responsibility for her actions. Self delusion is powerful **** man.


----------



## Chuck71

Oh damn! Buy her a helmet....when you are not around to pad the walls, she will need it. She lies, believes the lies and.....can't remember her lies. Nothing worse than an unorganized person ready to snap. No profile fits the makeup. D6 does not need to grow up around that................you shouldn't have lived with that......but you loved her. The things people do for love. I put up with nastiness and dog sh!t so....I can relate all too well.


----------



## terrence4159

That sucks Z hang in there buddy i feel for you..really i do i lost sleep the other night thinking about what your going through. moving wil lbe the best for you to get out of the toxic situation 

but if we can get garry to jump and watching the fear in his face as he gets thrown out the door we will atleast get a good laugh :rofl:


----------



## Garry2012

ok thats not funny. haha


----------



## Chuck71

LOL sounds like stained underwear will be a definate lmao


----------



## terrence4159

my xw blamed me for not spending time with her when all she did was work/sleep then go to her families house. guess i was supposed to go over there everyday to


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, i was blamed for not communicating and not "romancing" when i was the one who likes to talk and I got shot down in the romance dept so many times i gave up.


----------



## terrence4159

garry the first time is not bad unless what happened to Z happens (very rare) the third time when you go by yourself and have to take a 3 hr class (first 15 min how chute works how to land next 3hr 45 min how you ARE going to die) me and my friend so so scared it was funny. jumped anyway


----------



## zillard

K.C. said:


> Self delusion is powerful **** man.


Tell me about it. I was stuck there for years - telling myself my wife was awesome. 

Now that I'm not getting any of the positive things that I miss, I can more clearly see the negative things that I don't. 

Living in this house without her isn't that bad. Take away my temporary emotional rollercoaster and its much better. 

The kitchen is always clean. 
My daughter is more polite and well behaved.
My daughter and I discuss feelings more.
The dog listens better.
There are less bills.
There is less clutter.
There is less laundry.
I am drinking much less.
I am not smoking.
I am exercising and doing yoga.
I watch less tv.
I am reading more.
The drains are not clogged with hair.
The master bath is not a mess.
Grocery shopping is easier.
I don't have to eat bad tofu.
I can fart in bed.
Nothing is breaking. 
I talk to my family more.
I'm no longer hiding anything from them.
I'm not lying when people ask how I'm doing.
I am no longer pretending to have a perfect marriage.


----------



## terrence4159

they just make stuff up so they dont look bad.


----------



## terrence4159

Way to go Z you will be fine....i can fart in my own bed now me and w sleep in diff rooms she snores like no tomorrow and im a super light sleeper. so she sleeps with 2 of our 3 boxers and i sleep with 2 .45 cal pistols


----------



## zillard

terrence4159 said:


> my xw blamed me for not spending time with her when all she did was work/sleep then go to her families house. guess i was supposed to go over there everyday to


Yeah, I was blamed for not taking my wife out on enough dates. Even though she would not trust any babysitters that were not my family members and would not live near my family members.


----------



## Chuck71

trash cans not run over with "used feminine hygene products" that's my fav lol


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> No profile fits the makeup.


Bi-Polar childhood trauma victim with learned behaviors from an NPD mother.


----------



## Chuck71

we are characters of the surroundings we are brought up in.....


----------



## coachman

Z - you sound exactly like I did about 8-9 months ago. I attempted to have rational and logical conversations with my ex time after time after time. It doesn't work. 

I wish Conrad was still on the board because he was great at explaining these things. I'm gonna use some of his old quotes and hopefully it will help..

As far as her taking responsibility...

_"people with PTSD absolutely fear taking responsibility - as their emotional center screams out in fear of swift punishment should they have a part in some problem."_

Having logical conversations...

_Something in us has us persist with logical effective arguments when they have never worked.

Women communicate emotionally.

You must do that as well.

"I'm not ok with it" is as good as it gets._

and..

_you are trying to get someone who is completely unreasonable to come to agreement. For her the argument IS the point. It allows her to release the venom in her head and dump it on you._

I know how it is, you have this great argument planned out in your head with points you want to get across and specific examples to back them up. How could they not understand right? Of course you are right...it makes total sense right?

Wrong.

Of course you're not wrong though. You aren't crazy. Your logic makes perfect sense.

It's not you Zillard.

You are dealing with an emotional infant who is NOT CAPABLE of taking responsibility and NOT CAPABLE of processing your logical arguments.

She has ptsd and borderline traits. You are waging a battle that can never be won.

The only way out is for you to run and get as much distance as possible.

Once I understood some of these concepts a lot of things made sense. It finally explained what she suffered from.

Don't get me wrong... It's a fvcking hard cycle to break. I still find myself engaging in the same conversations but not nearly as often

There used to be a lot of talk on the board about the "Drama Triangle".... Look it up when you have time or search through some old threads for it. Get ready to go "holv $hit"

Understanding the cycle is the only chance to free yourself from it. Like everything else though it's one of those things that is simple to understand but not easy to implement.


----------



## terrence4159

your life Z will take a massive turn for the better when you move. right now she has home field and you are just visiting.!!

(and watching garry  :bounce: will make us all laugh)


----------



## zillard

coachman said:


> Z - you sound exactly like I did about 8-9 months ago. I attempted to have rational and logical conversations with my ex time after time after time. It doesn't work.


Sorry to hear you were in a similar situation. Glad you are learning how to deal with it. 



coachman said:


> _"people with PTSD absolutely fear taking responsibility - as their emotional center screams out in fear of swift punishment should they have a part in some problem."_


Yes! She gets the deer in the headlights look. Like a scared little kid. Then instantly switches to fury - survival mode. 



coachman said:


> "I'm not ok with it"


I need to use this more. 



coachman said:


> I know how it is, you have this great argument planned out in your head with points you want to get across and specific examples to back them up. How could they not understand right? Of course you are right...it makes total sense right?
> 
> You are dealing with an emotional infant who is NOT CAPABLE of taking responsibility and NOT CAPABLE of processing your logical arguments.


I love to debate. I never could with her about anything. Always ends with her angry.



coachman said:


> She has ptsd and borderline traits. You are waging a battle that can never be won.


Her little brother was diagnosed with PTSD due to their childhood, and she got the worst of it. She definitely has borderline traits. Painting me white and black. Instant short term rages. Feelings are fact, so as feelings change so does reality. 



coachman said:


> The only way out is for you to run and get as much distance as possible.


Reinforcing my decision to move D6 out of state. I've read what a Borderline mother can do to a child. 



coachman said:


> There used to be a lot of talk on the board about the "Drama Triangle".... Look it up when you have time or search through some old threads for it. Get ready to go "holv $hit"
> 
> Understanding the cycle is the only chance to free yourself from it. Like everything else though it's one of those things that is simple to understand but not easy to implement.


Looking this up now. Thanks.


----------



## hope4family

Borderline mother? Oh boy that's exactly what my ex-wife said her mother was. 

Granted, maybe she is right, maybe she isn't. But one thing is for certain, borderline mothers always want to be in control.


----------



## coachman

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/49562-drama-triangle.html


----------



## zillard

Wow. Yep. 

Starting Gate Rescuer here who married a Starting Gate Victim. 

She gets sick of being rescued and as she moves into Persecutor, I move into Victim. Then I get sick of the bad treatment and push her out of Persecutor so I can feel stronger and she runs back to Victim so I go Rescue her.


----------



## coachman

..and round and round we go

I'm the same way.


----------



## terrence4159

if she feels that way Z then only rescue yourself. your "rescue vehicle" is out of gas!


----------



## ReGroup

The Drama Triangle is one of the best pieces of information I have gotten by participating in this website - its fascinating. The dance is exhausting. No winners, only losers. Problems left unresolved with resentment build up as the only result. Its intoxicating, as each individual is trying to make the other see their point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pbartender

coachman said:


> Z - you sound exactly like I did about 8-9 months ago. I attempted to have rational and logical conversations with my ex time after time after time. It doesn't work.


That's funny... I couldn't help thinking that Z sounds exactly like I will 8-9 months from now.

Reading his posts and threads and the replies to them is like getting advise from a fortune teller for problems I haven't had yet.


Pb.


----------



## Garry2012

Yep im there with Z...i have tried to have logical, rational conversations with both X and XMIL...i might as well beat my head against the wall. Has to be the most frustrating thing in the world....would rather work on negotiations in the Gaza strip.


----------



## zillard

terrence4159 said:


> your life Z will take a massive turn for the better when you move. right now she has home field and you are just visiting.!!
> 
> (and watching garry  :bounce: will make us all laugh)


Is very true. The only reason I live in this state is X. Moved here and bought a house to settle down in for her. 

And I never treated her special. :scratchhead: Man, she's gonna have a rough time feeling special without a guy like me. Good luck toots. 

As far as skydiving - don't worry Garry. Not THAT many people die. It's pretty safe.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> That's funny... I couldn't help thinking that Z sounds exactly like I will 8-9 months from now.
> 
> Reading his posts and threads and the replies to them is like getting advise from a fortune teller for problems I haven't had yet.
> 
> 
> Pb.


Sweet! Put my experiences and this great advice to good use. 

I know you're futher ahead of me with dating, etc and envy that. But yeah, after stbxw leaves and have kid swaps... things of this sort will eventually pop up. 

It's also hard to walk that LC line. How much do you need to tell the X about the kids daily happenings without going overboard and chatting it up like good friends. Say too little and you're being a bad co-parent. Say too much and you open the door for them to interject other crap and start giving you parenting advice, etc.


----------



## HiRoad

zillard said:


> Sweet! Put my experiences and this great advice to good use.
> 
> I know you're futher ahead of me with dating, etc and envy that. But yeah, after stbxw leaves and have kid swaps... things of this sort will eventually pop up.
> 
> It's also hard to walk that LC line. How much do you need to tell the X about the kids daily happenings without going overboard and chatting it up like good friends. Say too little and you're being a bad co-parent. Say too much and you open the door for them to interject other crap and start giving you parenting advice, etc.


I had this thought two days ago at the kidd exchange. I feel like i will have to be cold with her for a while.

stbxw still has NOO idea what i know about her posOM and her lifestyle.

So bad i want to expose her, but at the advise of my lawyer, i am suppose to do nothing!?

She talks to me as if we are buddy buddy, no, not happening!


----------



## turnera

You can use Google calendar or cozi.com to exchange details about the kid. You never have to speak to them again.


----------



## zillard

HiRoad said:


> I had this thought two days ago at the kidd exchange. I feel like i will have to be cold with her for a while.
> 
> stbxw still has NOO idea what i know about her posOM and her lifestyle.
> 
> So bad i want to expose her, but at the advise of my lawyer, i am suppose to do nothing!?
> 
> *She talks to me as if we are buddy buddy, no, not happening!*


X wrote me this line a while back, "My fear of your disapproval was/is huge, believe it or not".

They can't handle the thought of us not being their friends anymore. Why? Because deep down they know we are good people who they look up to. Being a friend is approval of their conduct. Shunning them causes them to second guess themselves and think that maybe they f'd up. 

They don't wanna do that! So "let's be buddy buddy and pretend I never stabbed you in the back."


----------



## Garry2012

Currently we do something like that, we share a Yahoo email and calender...so i can see when she is doing something and i need to be home etc. We have discussed keeping the email as a "coparent" account to see teacher emails, sports stuff, etc. Calender works great.


----------



## hope4family

HiRoad said:


> I had this thought two days ago at the kidd exchange. I feel like i will have to be cold with her for a while.
> 
> stbxw still has NOO idea what i know about her posOM and her lifestyle.
> 
> *So bad i want to expose her, but at the advise of my lawyer, i am suppose to do nothing!?*
> 
> She talks to me as if we are buddy buddy, no, not happening!


DO NOT EXPOSE THIS. I agree completely. Notifying her of the crap she is will only cause her to fix it. Then you could lose more then just your wife. 

For example, I asked my lawyer straight up yesterday why I am paying for X and Y still? (On her advice) Her answer, "You don't want her realizing she can't exist without you."

Cheeky.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> X wrote me this line a while back, "My fear of your disapproval was/is huge, believe it or not".
> 
> They can't handle the thought of us not being their friends anymore. Why? Because deep down they know we are good people who they look up to. Being a friend is approval of their conduct. Shunning them causes them to second guess themselves and think that maybe they f'd up.
> 
> They don't wanna do that! So "let's be buddy buddy and pretend I never stabbed you in the back."


YES!! my STBXW seems to be struggling with me not being her friend. I have already told her 1) i hold my friends to a higher standard than what you have shown me and 2) if my car broke down, i would die in the street before i called you. Why does she not get it? Because like you said, if we are friends, all is ok..her behavior was justified, and i accept it. NOT


----------



## HiRoad

hope4family said:


> DO NOT EXPOSE THIS. I agree completely. Notifying her of the crap she is will only cause her to fix it. Then you could lose more then just your wife.
> 
> For example, I asked my lawyer straight up yesterday why I am paying for X and Y still? (On her advice) Her answer, "You don't want her realizing she can't exist without you."
> 
> Cheeky.


Yes I agree COMPLETELY too! We have become experts in relationship phycology!


----------



## Garry2012

why is that? so she wont try to claw her way back? I think im safe for now...SBTXW is too deep in fog still...especailly since her life wont really change until she moves out etc...and that will be post finalization.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> why is that? so she wont try to claw her way back? I think im safe for now...SBTXW is too deep in fog still...especailly since her life wont really change until she moves out etc...and that will be post finalization.


Good position to be in Garry. 

Glad I got papers signed and notarized before X moved out. If we were to go over them today, my custody agreement wouldn't be going the same way I think. 

Earlier she expressed a desire for us to stick around a while and not sell the house right away. But said D is set in stone. I reminded her that selling the house IS part of the D. So is me and D6 moving. 

Z - "We discussed this already. You signed the papers."

X - I know I signed the papers. But I'm human too. 

Whatever that means. I didn't ask.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> why is that? so she wont try to claw her way back?


Once they are totally cut off and they see how hard their new life will be, they start reconsidering things. 

If finances are the main hardship, you can expect them to decide they want more.


----------



## hope4family

Garry2012 said:


> why is that? so she wont try to claw her way back? I think im safe for now...SBTXW is too deep in fog still...especailly since her life wont really change until she moves out etc...and that will be post finalization.


Every situation is different. In hiroad, Z, and my case. Our ex's have moved out and left us as primary child caretakers. 

From there each of our stories differ. I am more abandoned possibly cheated on. Z & Hiroad were cheated on, then the ex's split when it was exposed. (I am summing up the story.) 

From there it breaks off even more. My ex currently does God knows what. Hiroads wife apparently party's it up as well. Z's wife is considering just leaving everything. 

It's sad. Sorry if I got the story wrong guys.

Having them come back because are "guilty about the kids" or "money is tight" is the worst possible thing that could happen.


----------



## Garry2012

soooo human as in she made mistakes? or human as in she wants to change her mind and has regrets starting to pop up? I dont look forward to those days IF they come (ok maybe a little).


----------



## ReGroup

SMH. She now wants consideration? When has she considered anyone but herself? Selfish until the end.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

AHH...my STBXW is careful not to do any of that...as she would maybe lose her family support. Apparently, they are OK with her having an EA/PA that causes the D, but as long as they dont see it, they are ok with the D. She knows $ wont be great, wants joint custody, and to be good ole friends (cause she did nothing wrong). I feel like if she ever wants to claw back, it will be 6-24 months...she wants to be free a while, spend quality time with OM etc. Then maybe, if i am lucky of course, she will decide that plan B was better..and i will be very fortunate to take her back on her terms and with no hard feelings what so ever...in fact i will prob just start kissin her butt right away. haha heck to the no!


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> soooo human as in she made mistakes? or human as in she wants to change her mind and has regrets starting to pop up? I dont look forward to those days IF they come (ok maybe a little).


All of the above? who knows. I don't think anyone does... including her. Here's proof:

don't move right away
divorce is set in stone
my baby will be so far away
i can't move. I can't
I hope there's something terribly wrong with the house
I want to prove myself
sell the house
I won't change shifts or quit my job
I don't want to hurt you
you're a d!ck

:crazy:


----------



## ReGroup

Hilarious Garry!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

of course Regroup, i wll gladly tell the lovely, kind, condsiderate and loving current girlfriend that, i am sorry, but my EXPOS W has summoned me, and i must go...because...well..we had something special.


----------



## zillard

Haha. 

If she keeps telling herself the pedestal is still there, then she won't fall as long as she doesn't look down.


----------



## HiRoad

hope4family said:


> Every situation is different. In hiroad, Z, and my case. Our ex's have moved out and left us as primary child caretakers.
> 
> From there each of our stories differ. I am more abandoned possibly cheated on. Z & Hiroad were cheated on, then the ex's split when it was exposed. (I am summing up the story.)
> 
> From there it breaks off even more. My ex currently does God knows what. Hiroads wife apparently party's it up as well. Z's wife is considering just leaving everything.
> 
> It's sad. Sorry if I got the story wrong guys.
> 
> Having them come back because are "guilty about the kids" or "money is tight" is the worst possible thing that could happen.


You must prepare your self for every situation. I personally prepared myself for the day that stbxw comes back to me and says "blah blah blah i f#$ked up"

My answer, "thats too bad, i understand that feeling, NO it would not be healthy for me or our children, we can work on a better co-parent realtionship"

Prepare for every covo. 

There comes a time when the emotion towards stbxw are gone and you can answer with confidnece and see clearly the path to take.

It takes time to get there, but certainly possible.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, i am seeing a little bit of that now, but still working through it. Im torn between wanting her to experience at least SOME of what i went through, or not dealing with all the drama. Wouldnt suprise me if she has a near nervous breakdown, or nothing at all.


----------



## Chuck71

Garry-They always do.........but never wait for it. It will be sweeter to find out "unexpectedly." Thanks to the kids she gets to see you move on and have a happy life. You want redemption.......let her see you happy. That's all it takes!


----------



## Garry2012

Chuck71 said:


> Garry-They always do.........but never wait for it. It will be sweeter to find out "unexpectedly." Thanks to the kids she gets to see you move on and have a happy life. You want redemption.......let her see you happy. That's all it takes!


Good advice...if i wait on it then i am focusing on the wrong thing. Yeah, she will have to watch me coaching them for a few years alone...unless she doesnt show up. I do want redemption...especially when i dont think i was that bad a H, in fact i think i was pretty darn good.


----------



## zillard

Remember the "how the he!! can she be so calm and happy while I'm in soooo much misery" stage?

She may not ever let you know it, but she'll get there too sooner or later. 

Like the exs we were talking about earlier from way back. If you are a good man, people can only convince themselves you're not for so long.


----------



## terrence4159

the lets be friends line they use is not true! they dont want to be friends they say that to look like they are trying to be civil the "see i still care about you and care for you B.S." ive heard that line and fell for it


----------



## Garry2012

OMG...i hear the "i never said i dont love you" line makes me sick...and the "lets be civil" line too. I dont want it to be WW3 everytime we see each other, but im not trading muffin recipies either!! (no i really dont know any)


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> OMG...i hear the "i never said i dont love you" line makes me sick...and the "lets be civil" line too. I dont want it to be WW3 everytime we see each other, but im not trading muffin recipies either!! (no i really dont know any)


Ahhh! I got the "I never said I don't love you" line too. 

and "I'm trying soooo hard to be civil right now"

Really? Why? I asked her once. "What did I ever do to you that's so terrible?"

Her answer - "You took money out of my purse without asking". 

:lol: :rofl: That's the only thing she could think of! I even gave her a minute to think up something else. Nothin'.


----------



## zillard

terrence4159 said:


> the lets be friends line they use is not true! they dont want to be friends they say that to look like they are trying to be civil the "see i still care about you and care for you B.S." ive heard that line and fell for it


You're right terrence. If they really wanted to be friends they would be friendly. You wouldn't have a tattoo on your back, Garry wouldn't have a VAR, and none of us would be here.


----------



## terrence4159

yep you are dead right i tried to hard to be her friend (oh i was a sad pathetic at the time i wont lie) wish i had this forum back then. so someone could have slapped some sense in me. and if i had a dollar for every time i heard the i love you but not in love with you i could have bought my 6k sniper rifle a little sooner


----------



## Garry2012

We all made out mistakes. I was ready to let her live on her own to sort out life....never even had the thought she had om on the side.... And never would have planted a VAR. I was lucky to find this site. I had found a gophone number on her phone notes.... And didn't know what to do...I found tam. I mishandled her the two years prior, I knew it was a midlife.... But didn't know how to handle or that I should have got her to IC/MC then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Z-The took $ out of purse was classic! Try this one.....when we were first together she offered to sort through my sports cards and put them in # order. She could do it a lot faster than me. What did I do? I loved her long hair and with her being a stylist, showed me how to style it. Plus it was a successful form of foreplay 8>). Anyway....years later she said "you used to brush my hair too hard." Ahhhh the he!! you say LOL.....i thought, danm at least run out a BS line noteworthy.

I will touch on this on my final post @ Crossroads. Sad as it has been for her....I am almost at the point of wanting to be friends.....as I smile. Her nerves are so bad, yesterday she was broke out all around her mouth and nose. I decided not to block her from FB.....now she is out of the house and locks are being changed.....I will change my status to 'in a relationship'. Is it just to pi$$ her off?

Not at all......my g/f is already commenting 'I changed mine, I am waiting on you'. I miss the marriage, I miss the person she was. If you notice, all the great times I mentioned in my 10 day countdown to D...were from the 90's. All the bad times were.....recent. The person she was for about five years.....I can't put it in words. I reaped the benefit of the best she will ever be. She can not reproduce those five years. It's not humanly possible. She could not do it if we stayed together. 

She did mention earlier in the week when I spot checked the house and she was moving things out and we crossed paths...."you are acting like you did when we first met." That was my intentions...........now she runs through her head 'he got me acting this way....maybe he.....uh-oh!"
LOL


----------



## zillard

Wow. So glad to have a friend who is a fitness instructor. He sure knows how to throw a bday party. And who to invite. 

First was a quick stop off at a bar with um, little people servers (is midget PC anymore?). One was completely gorgeous... even at 4ft tall. Not even kidding. 

Next went to a club where the two best tables were reserved for us. There was a stripper pole in between the two. The company was me and my buddy with three hot sisters and their 2 girl friends. One of which did not converse with us at all through the night. She was buff! Danced on that pole all night long like it was her job. Apparently she has one at home and that is her workout? No complaints here.

Our two tables were the life of the place last night. 

None of these women were the type I'd ever bring home, but man were they wild! Absolutely perfect for the bday party of a freshly single, self-conscious man. I had a good time. First kiss I've had in months. Even got a phone number from a hot little 22 year old who might want to go out next week. That was an ego boost for sure. 

Didn't think or talk about X at all. She'll probably notice the bite marks on my neck though tonight. (no, you dirty TAMers, I slept alone).


----------



## terrence4159

i would never think anything dirty  but good for you man and no need to tell your stbxw. you might as well have fun you are pretty much divorced. im mad you slept alone :soapbox: kidding.


----------



## hope4family

Damn Z. Wow to remind of of how good aggression/love at the same time can be. 

Oh well.


----------



## zillard

X dropped off kiddo. 

While I was playing around with D6 I noticed X opening my freezer. She was stashing 2 qts of her homemade spaghetti sauce.

She saw that I saw her and stood up, gave me a huge grin and said, "sauced!"

Weird.

Then D6 asked her mom if she was coming over for my birthday (thursday). She told D6, "I dunno" and looked at me. 

I told kiddo that after school we could open the present D6 got for me, eat some cake and then I would be taking her to her mom's. 

X says, "She wants me to be here for it". 

I repeated the plan.


----------



## terrence4159

That sucks man but at same time your stbxw should have told your little angel that she couldnt not leaving it up to you to decide. geezzz she made he bed she needs to now lay in it. just my .02 cents


----------



## 06Daddio08

It would have been even better if you hadn't seen it.

Then when you noticed it said nothing and then said nothing when she asked you for validation.

Nothing wrong with letting your daughter know that it doesn't work like that anymore.


----------



## Garry2012

Just trying to come back some it seems... And hoping D6 can help gain some leverage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

I did talk to D6 later about it. Let her know it was completely fine for her to ask, but after divorce her mom and I won't be celebrating each others' birthdays together. 

She picked up on it quick. Said "Oh, so I celebrate your's and I celebrate mom's". 

Z - yep, and mom and I both celebrate yours!


----------



## terrence4159

nice way to handle that Z!


----------



## zillard

UpnOver said:


> It would have been even better if you hadn't seen it.
> 
> Then when you noticed it said nothing and then said nothing when she asked you for validation.


Ha. yeah. She even labeled it "Awesomesauce". She knows I love the stuff. Is also D6's favorite dinner. She has told me multiple times she will write the recipe for me (without me asking). She hasn't. 



Garry2012 said:


> Just trying to come back some it seems... And hoping D6 can help gain some leverage.


I think so too. If that is the case it's cowardly.


----------



## Garry2012

If my x ever gets to the point of wanting back... She will use the kids... She knows they are my world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## terrence4159

she may not be using the kid to get back in, sounds like your stbxw so messed in the head she may actually believe that she may want to be your friend after or she sees you moving on and afraid your out of her life staying friends keeps a hook in.


----------



## Garry2012

idunno, Z stbxw seems to be using D6 to
Get into the house etc. I see some leverage goin on.

My stbxw... Yeah she is messed up....I think to proud already to say she is
Having doubts... It won't really hit until she is out for a bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## terrence4159

she could be wanting back in i have been wrong before just ask my wife. she may figure if she gets back in Z doesnt move and it buys her more time to get plan A sorted while keeping plan B there


----------



## ReGroup

If they could ever pull their heads out of their as* - they'd realize that not only are they terrorizing themselves and the spouse... they're terrorizing their children as well. And all for what?


----------



## ReGroup

What should be "Plan A" has been staring this woman right in the face this entire time.


----------



## terrence4159

:iagree::iagree:


----------



## zillard

I do see her using D6 in a way, regardless of her reasons.

She wanted to sleep over on Xmas eve to be here when D6 woke up. When I refused she showed up Xmas day around noon.

She wanted to come celebrate New Years Eve at the house. When I refused but gave her D6 she kept her longer than agreed. 

She hasn't given me the sauce recipe and instead gives me sauce... for D6.

She didn't tell D6 she wasn't coming over for my bday. Even though when I asked her to take the night off work I let her know it was so I could go out.


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> What should be "Plan A" has been staring this woman right in the face this entire time.


Well, she is no longer MY plan A. 

D6 and me in my hometown IS. :smthumbup:


----------



## terrence4159

yeah your right she is im sorry that sucks.


----------



## Garry2012

At least Z, you are aware of what she is doing..so you
Can be prepared etc. I like keeping up with your story.... It may help me too
Some day.

Stay strong Z!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## terrence4159

it amazes me how you have been able to move on Z... really you are my hero wish i had have the stones you got.


----------



## terrence4159

isnt the big day only 4 days away for you now Z?
:beer:


----------



## ReGroup

She thought their were problems at the tail end of the marriage - wait until they're divorced and Z and D6 move.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

60 day waiting period is up on Thursday, yes. 

I have the notarized papers here ready to be filed. I will not be speaking to her about them before I do so. 

I have been debating whether or not to file them on V/Bday. Right now I'm thinking I probably will. I don't want a negative reminder on that day. But I'm realizing just had bad my M was, and how bad she treated me... before the A. 

Standing up for myself and ending this is probably the best way that I can treat myself on Bday. And love myself on Vday.


----------



## terrence4159

i dont think filing on that day will ruin it, i cant even remember what month i filed for mine. but this is your life do it your way,, and if its your birthday its a great birthday gift, you are giving yourself a new beginning in a better place with D6!!


----------



## Chuck71

When a spouse uses children as pawns, it is mostly for their own self gain. Obviously self respect was long tossed out the window. 

using sex as ploy...........deflected
using child(ren) as directives....deflected

imagine what may be used down the road


----------



## Garry2012

I would assume more overt use of D6 is in your future Z. She will get more aggressive with it and try to make you feel like YOU should R for D6.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> I have been debating whether or not to file them on V/Bday. Right now I'm thinking I probably will. I don't want a negative reminder on that day. But I'm realizing just had bad my M was, and how bad she treated me... before the A.
> 
> Standing up for myself and ending this is probably the best way that I can treat myself on Bday. And love myself on Vday.


I have a similar dilemma this week... I finally got tired of waiting for STBXW to join in the negotiations, so I talked to my lawyer about it and decided to file the Petition for Dissolution of Marriage this week.

He suggested filing on Valentine's Day (have I told you how much I like my lawyer?), but I might have him file on Ash Wednesday instead... So I can give up my wife for Lent.


Pb.


----------



## RAN

zillard said:


> X says, "She wants me to be here for it".
> 
> I repeated the plan.


On the Lighter note - Instead of repeating the Plan should have shown the *"BITE MARKS ON YOUR NECK *".


----------



## zillard

It will be interesting to see what happens between now and the move. 

This week she has D6 for 4 nights in a row. I realized that this will be the longest period of time she has spent with D6 in the last year.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> 60 day waiting period is up on Thursday, yes.
> 
> I have the notarized papers here ready to be filed. I will not be speaking to her about them before I do so.
> 
> I have been debating whether or not to file them on V/Bday. Right now I'm thinking I probably will. I don't want a negative reminder on that day. But I'm realizing just had bad my M was, and how bad she treated me... before the A.
> 
> Standing up for myself and ending this is probably the best way that I can treat myself on Bday. And love myself on Vday.


Oh wise sage. You are seeing it.


----------



## terrence4159

these four night are going to suck for you (like you didnt know) now is a really good time to use a certain phone # a certain 22 year old gave you to keep one of them nights occupied if you know what i mean


----------



## hope4family

terrence4159 said:


> i dont think filing on that day will ruin it, i cant even remember what month i filed for mine. but this is your life do it your way,, and if its your birthday its a great birthday gift, you are giving yourself a new beginning in a better place with D6!!


Don't do it on a day that is important to your daughter. She won't know it, but that will be a tiny way of showing respect to her for years to come. 

As far as the day is concerned for a man. The day should not matter, but be celebrated. The more you realize how terrible your marriage was. The happier you should be. 

I'll be somber, but also extraordinarily happy.


----------



## HappyKaty

Garry2012 said:


> I would assume more overt use of D6 is in your future Z. She will get more aggressive with it and try to make you feel like YOU should R for D6.


Obviously, I wouldn't defend Z's STBX, but is it really unfathomable that she is going to miss the kid?!

Regardless of how much she has 'checked out', over the past few months, it's still her child.

I don't believe she's using her as a pawn, at all. She's just realizing how much she will miss her. 

I mean, hasn't she made it clear she does not want to R?


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> 60 day waiting period is up on Thursday, yes.
> 
> I have the notarized papers here ready to be filed. I will not be speaking to her about them before I do so.
> 
> I have been debating whether or not to file them on V/Bday. Right now I'm thinking I probably will. I don't want a negative reminder on that day. But I'm realizing just had bad my M was, and how bad she treated me... before the A.
> 
> Standing up for myself and ending this is probably the best way that I can treat myself on Bday. And love myself on Vday.


Standing up for yourself - absolutely.

And you are certain about the last part?

Does any of that depend on what she does or does not do?


----------



## Garry2012

HappyKaty said:


> Obviously, I wouldn't defend Z's STBX, but is it really unfathomable that she is going to miss the kid?!
> 
> Regardless of how much she has 'checked out', over the past few months, it's still her child.
> 
> I don't believe she's using her as a pawn, at all. She's just realizing how much she will miss her.
> 
> I mean, hasn't she made it clear she does not want to R?


yeah, but the hiding of the sauce is very odd. If it was for D6, why not say "hey, i have some of D6's fav sauce...ill put it in the fridge". Just a thought....


----------



## HappyKaty

Garry2012 said:


> yeah, but the hiding of the sauce is very odd. If it was for D6, why not say "hey, i have some of D6's fav sauce...ill put it in the fridge". Just a thought....


The sauce thing is stupid, on her part, but she was probably uncomfortable with the fact that she brought it over.

Regardless, it's irrelevant.

Supplying a bag of frozen yumminess can't be mistaken with using the kid as a pawn.


----------



## Garry2012

true


----------



## 06Daddio08

It had nothing to do with D6.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> Obviously, I wouldn't defend Z's STBX, but is it really unfathomable that she is going to miss the kid?!
> 
> Regardless of how much she has 'checked out', over the past few months, it's still her child.
> 
> I don't believe she's using her as a pawn, at all. She's just realizing how much she will miss her.
> 
> I mean, hasn't she made it clear she does not want to R?


Of course she will miss her daughter - she already does. I believe that is the hardest part of this whole thing for her. 

As far as intentions go, no, I don't think she is trying to use D6 as a pawn. 

But staying over Xmas night, staying over NYE, being here for my Bday - these things are clearly not about D6. I won't be so bold as to say it's all about me, either. If anything it's about her missing the normal life and routine she's accustomed to. 

The sauce - she has always taken great pride in feeding others. Not just me but guests, family, etc. She has repeatedly expressed desire to come over and cook for us. She is lonely, she probably wants to feel part of something. Cooking for us and providing food gives her a boost. Feeling of importance. Value. 

I'm not angry about it. But I do think she in unintentionally using D6 as the reason in order to avoid confronting her own emotions.


----------



## Conrad

I'm trying to catch up with all of you.

Has she had any IC?


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> She is lonely, she probably wants to feel part of something. Cooking for us and providing food gives her a boost. Feeling of importance. Value.
> 
> I'm not angry about it. But I do think she in unintentionally using D6 as the reason in order to avoid confronting her own emotions.


I don't disagree that she's desperate for a feeling of belonging.

She's clearly as codependent as I am.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> I'm trying to catch up with all of you.
> 
> Has she had any IC?


Yes, I believe she had her 4th session last week. We also had 1 MC session at the beginning and 3 joint sessions with D6's IC - w/o D6.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> I don't disagree that she's desperate for a feeling of belonging.
> 
> She's clearly as codependent as I am.


Is it uncommon to have 2 codependent people in a relationship? I guess it makes sense. Feeding off each other. 

Perhaps that's why we were able to make it 10 years together without ever facing our issues.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Is it uncommon to have 2 codependent people in a relationship? I guess it makes sense. Feeding off each other.
> 
> Perhaps that's why we were able to make it 10 years together without ever facing our issues.


Zillard,

Neediness attracts neediness.

That's why the lumber comes out here.

WE... have an opportunity to overcome our neediness so our current relationships improve OR our future relationships have a chance.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Is it uncommon to have 2 codependent people in a relationship? I guess it makes sense. Feeding off each other.
> 
> Perhaps that's why we were able to make it 10 years together without ever facing our issues.


I don't know how common it is, but my ex and I have both been labeled as codependents, by our respective counselors.

We're just on completely different levels.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Standing up for yourself - absolutely.
> 
> And you are certain about the last part?
> 
> Does any of that depend on what she does or does not do?


That's an excellent question. 

A week ago I was convinced I shouldn't do it on BVDay. This week I'm leaning toward yes. 

So no, I'm not certain. 

Our interaction last weekend went well. It did this weekend too. In between the two we had the unproductive convo re: GM issue. 

Question is, did I change my mind about the filing date because of how she acted, or because of what I am realizing about the M being bad for quite some time vs my previous delusion that it was awesome.


----------



## Conrad

It's irrelevant.

The key thing is have you recovered from codependence?

If you have, the opportunity for a relationship with her wouldn't be the same - because you wouldn't allow it.


----------



## terrence4159

just cause you file on v-d that wont tarnish the day Z, will take a bit for the judge to ok it so that wont tarnish the day.


----------



## terrence4159

but again do what YOU feel is right.! you have to live with it we dont.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> It's irrelevant.
> 
> The key thing is have you recovered from codependence?
> 
> If you have, the opportunity for a relationship with her wouldn't be the same - because you wouldn't allow it.


I don't think I've completely recovered from codependency, no. I am overcoming it, but my tendencies run deep. Not just with her. In my other relationships also, especially my siblings and mother where they originated.

I do NOT want the relationship we had. No way. I won't go back to that. If we ever got back together it would have to be a completely different foundation and walls in proper places.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I don't think I've completely recovered from codependency, no. I am overcoming it, but my tendencies run deep. Not just with her. In my other relationships also, especially my siblings and mother where they originated.
> 
> I do NOT want the relationship we had. No way. I won't go back to that. If we ever got back together it would have to be a completely different foundation and walls in proper places.


And, you realize that would be entirely up to you.

She's only done to you what you've allowed.


----------



## zillard

Yes. That is true. 

I am the only person responsible for defining, communicating and enforcing my own boundaries. 

And doing so is not a method of controlling others, but necessary to maintain happiness by surrounding myself with things that I am OK with.


----------



## terrence4159

Again Z you amaze me at how you have handled this, you are my TAM HERO!!

:allhail:


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yes. That is true.
> 
> I am the only person responsible for defining, communicating and enforcing my own boundaries.
> 
> And doing so is not a method of controlling others, but necessary to maintain happiness by surrounding myself with things that I am OK with.


And you are doing that with her now.

From reading your thread, it seems she's responding to you differently.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, she sure does seem to see a difference as well.


----------



## Conrad

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah, she sure does seem to see a difference as well.


Garry,

What the needy folks don't realize is even ASKING if she sees a change is needy.

Less talk.

More action.

Masculine mettle and decisiveness is what's attractive.


----------



## terrence4159

She is different she thought she could just walk all over him and do what she wanted and if i read the earlier threads right the OM has moved on from her. now the fog has lifted and shes stuck on an island all by herself..praying Z will come rescue her


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> And you are doing that with her now.
> 
> From reading your thread, it seems she's responding to you differently.


Yes. Like you said in your thread. Lead with strength. 

I became comfortable seeing her at kid swaps - well good at faking it at first. Dispassionate and refusing to argue or be chatty. 

She now seems much more comfortable at kid swaps. Rather than rushing out the door in a huff. This is much better for everyone as the stress level is drastically lower. 

She is now making requests and using please and thank you rather than bossy demands and statements with expectations. Because I am not being receptive and accommodating if she does not. 

I will have a big test on Friday. We are both going to the zoo with D6 for her birthday. Shouldn't be too difficult though. It is about D6, so that is where my focus and attention will be.


----------



## Conrad

Keep it that way.

Women have no respect for fathers that ignore their children to cater to their whims.


----------



## zillard

Yes, decisiveness is a big thing. We were both very poor on that front. Where do you want to go to dinner? I don't know, where do you wanna go? Doesn't matter to me, what do you feel like? 

Like those freakin buzzards in Disney's Jungle Book. 

Now I'm doing much better, like a recent email I sent about D6's bday gifts. 

Here is her birthday list.
I will be purchasing these items.
It would be good if you could get the others. 
Are you ok with that?

Her answer - "I can definitely get XYZ. No problem."


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yes, decisiveness is a big thing. We were both very poor on that front. Where do you want to go to dinner? I don't know, where do you wanna go? Doesn't matter to me, what do you feel like?
> 
> Like those freakin buzzards in Disney's Jungle Book.
> 
> Now I'm doing much better, like a recent email I sent about D6's bday gifts.
> 
> Here is her birthday list.
> I will be purchasing these items.
> It would be good if you could get the others.
> Are you ok with that?
> 
> Her answer - "I can definitely get XYZ. No problem."


Her response indicates security with the right leadership.


----------



## terrence4159

you already know this dont know why im saying it, bee 100% civil at the party yes no's thank you's nothing about your personal life only Questions about D6 just like she is another guest.


----------



## zillard

Took D6 to her IC this morning. X was late so I got some time to speak with the IC alone. 

She asked how I felt about our last session with X where she jumped from questioning the D (apparently this wasn't just me interpreting things that way) to dead set against it. I told her it hurts, of course, after a decade with someone. It is hard to see when X actually means what she says and when it is her scared little 5yo inside reacting. 

Told her no matter what, if we ever got back together it would be a completely different relationship as what we had before didn't work. Also that it's not healthy for me to wait around - I'm moving on with my life. She agreed.

X came in and IC asked her if she'd made any decisions about changing her work situation to be around D6 more. She dropped lame excuses about the job market (she's in healthcare). 

IC told X - you've got a guy here that might be willing to consider staying in state but in order for him to do so he has set clear boundaries on what he needs to move on with his life. He needs to get out. He's young. His life can't just revolve around D6. That's not healthy. 

IC told her if she wants me to consider sticking around she needs to step up, quickly, and show me. CC me on job applications, etc. whatever it takes to convince. Told her she understands she might not have the energy at the moment to do such a thing, but if she doesn't me and D6 will be gone and she'll regret it. But it's up to her and she can't put blame for that on me. 

X said she'd think about it. 

D6 went in for her session and we went to the waiting room. X went to the counter and signed herself up for 5-6 IC sessions in a row and told me she'd be emailing me a list of her IC schedule. I simply said Ok. Apparently the stretch doesn't start til this time next month. The house will be listed by then. 

X went on about how she needs to stop and get new tires today but doesn't get paid until Friday. So I reminded her that her car insurance is scheduled to stop on Thursday (filing day).


----------



## turnera

Good job.


----------



## Conrad

"I'll think about it" means "I won't do it"

Full speed ahead.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Took D6 to her IC this morning. X was late so I got some time to speak with the IC alone.
> 
> She asked how I felt about our last session with X where she jumped from questioning the D (apparently this wasn't just me interpreting things that way) to dead set against it. I told her it hurts, of course, after a decade with someone. It is hard to see when X actually means what she says and when it is her scared little 5yo inside reacting.
> 
> Told her no matter what, if we ever got back together it would be a completely different relationship as what we had before didn't work. Also that it's not healthy for me to wait around - I'm moving on with my life. She agreed.
> 
> X came in and IC asked her if she'd made any decisions about changing her work situation to be around D6 more. She dropped lame excuses about the job market (she's in healthcare).
> 
> IC told X - you've got a guy here that might be willing to consider staying in state but in order for him to do so he has set clear boundaries on what he needs to move on with his life. He needs to get out. He's young. His life can't just revolve around D6. That's not healthy.
> 
> IC told her if she wants me to consider sticking around she needs to step up, quickly, and show me. CC me on job applications, etc. whatever it takes to convince. Told her she understands she might not have the energy at the moment to do such a thing, but if she doesn't me and D6 will be gone and she'll regret it. But it's up to her and she can't put blame for that on me.
> 
> X said she'd think about it.
> 
> D6 went in for her session and we went to the waiting room. X went to the counter and signed herself up for 5-6 IC sessions in a row and told me she'd be emailing me a list of her IC schedule. I simply said Ok. Apparently the stretch doesn't start til this time next month. The house will be listed by then.
> 
> *X went on about how she needs to stop and get new tires today but doesn't get paid until Friday. So I reminded her that her car insurance is scheduled to stop on Thursday (filing day).*


Reality is about to give her a swift kick in the behind. You've gotten a bit stronger and more focused since your last session. 

I'm glad you are resolute. However, I didn't necessarily like that you are open to a relationship with her as long as the dynamics change. 

This time you at least communicated with us about your line of thinking before hand. The struggle in your mind i'm sure is going to come from the irrational sense of hope that maybe she will change. 

I understand that irrational sense of hope. Feel it often in myself. Just keep doing what you need to do to move on.


----------



## zillard

Just got a text from her. "The spare was 10 yrs old. Now there's a full size spare."

Pretty much letting me know she did a great job at the tire place. And testing to see if I'll respond now that she shared about her IC appointments. 

Nope. Not my car anymore. And I'm not impressed.


----------



## zillard

And the car itself isn't even 10 years old. :rofl:


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> The struggle in your mind i'm sure is going to come from the irrational sense of hope that maybe she will change.
> 
> I understand that irrational sense of hope. Feel it often in myself. Just keep doing what you need to do to move on.


Yes. This is a struggle. And it IS irrational.

It stems from my codependency. A caretaker losing his project.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> It stems from my codependency. A caretaker losing his project.


I can grok that.

Make your new project yourself... That's what's working for me.


Pb.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> And the car itself isn't even 10 years old. :rofl:


Funny....im sure you remember I just had the "car needs new tires" showdown with my STBXW/MIL. It was a 4YO car that she didnt like anyway...so I didnt pay for the tires, and she got a new car. So does taking care of cars hit the XW with a "oh heck, now i have to find me a new car guy" feeling?


----------



## GutPunch

zillard said:


> Yes. This is a struggle. And it IS irrational.
> 
> It stems from my codependency. A caretaker losing his project.




HAHA That's me too.


----------



## zillard

Yes Garry, I think it does. Just like her asking me to bring over power tools to hang her drapes. Things they are perfectly capable of doing for themselves but have always relied on hubby to do.

I didn't respond. Now I got another one. She's having trouble locating one of the bday gifts for D6 that she agreed to buy.


----------



## turnera

"Gee, D6 will be disappointed, won't she?"


----------



## zillard

She asked if I knew where they sell it. I simply replied, "I'm not sure".


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> Yes Garry, I think it does. Just like her asking me to bring over power tools to hang her drapes. Things they are perfectly capable of doing for themselves but have always relied on hubby to do.
> 
> I didn't respond. Now I got another one. She's having trouble locating one of the bday gifts for D6 that she agreed to buy.


this is a line i will struggle with. If i say heck no, then i am being the jerk XH who wont do anything for the mother of my kids, or she will make it aboutthe kids..ie the drapes are for the kids room. But if i do all that, then i am just her handy man.....


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> this is a line i will struggle with. If i say heck no, then i am being the jerk XH who wont do anything for the mother of my kids, or she will make it aboutthe kids..ie the drapes are for the kids room. But if i do all that, then i am just her handy man.....


"I'm not comfortable with that."


----------



## zillard

Daughter's IC told me "Don't do her share of the parenting". 

It is not your responsibility to fix things in her house. That is her job and not about the kids. Providing a good place for the kids to live while in her care is completely up to her. Will she be coming over and doing your dishes?

I'm sure there is an iphone app for finding a handyman.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, but where to you draw the line between doing something for your kid/kids, and a lazy X who just wants her handyman back...


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> Daughter's IC told me "Don't do her share of the parenting".
> 
> It is not your responsibility to fix things in her house. That is her job and not about the kids. Providing a good place for the kids to live while in her care is completely up to her. Will she be coming over and doing your dishes?
> 
> I'm sure there is an iphone app for finding a handyman.


heck, barely did them when she lived with me....haha


----------



## zillard

You have to look at it from above and see if it really is about the kids. 

Hanging drapes in the kids room is about making life easier for her - so she doesn't have to do it. That's upkeep on her house.

If the kid has a flat tire on his bike, sure, fix the bike. That's his.


----------



## zillard

Ok, just received email from X. 



> I'm willing to look for a day shift job if you're willing to stay in state. Not seeing D6 is gonna kill me.
> 
> You have to really be willing to stay here, though. I've been talking to some of my divorced friends and they all have shared custody. They've each tried to leave state and not being around their kids was too much.
> 
> I'm willing to compromise if you are.


Unexpected. But she's still putting it mostly on me. I HAVE to. She's willing to compromise?

Hmmm.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Ok, just received email from X.
> 
> 
> 
> Unexpected. But she's still putting it mostly on me. I HAVE to. She's willing to compromise?
> 
> Hmmm.


Willing to look. Still sounds half hazard. What if she can't find it? Is that commitment from her?



> I've been talking to some of my divorced friends and they all have shared custody. They've each tried to leave state and not being around their kids was too much.


This part bothers me as well. Don't know why, but it makes my skin crawl. If it was such a big fat deal to be away from your kid, why did you leave? Someone is guilting her into it.


----------



## zillard

Say she gets a day shift job. She still lives 45 minutes away. 

School. If she is wanting shared custody, we'd both need to live close to D6's school. She would either need to break her lease or I would need to move closer to her. 

House. I'm assuming she'd still want the house sold. So it would probably be up to me to move and find a school close to daughter's mom. 

Custody. I have primary. Split would be best for D6... IF X steps it up and maintains. 

Support. I would still have no family support. 

Compromise. I would be living in a state I dislike with no family. She would be changing an employer she never really liked anyway.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Ok, just received email from X.
> 
> 
> 
> Unexpected. But she's still putting it mostly on me. I HAVE to. She's willing to compromise?
> 
> Hmmm.


Zillard,

Time to lead.

Let her know a FIRM date for her to come up with something.

If it doesn't happen, you bug out.

Think hard about what's fair.

Then...

Cool

Firm

Dispassionate

(You know she isn't going to do it, but your conscience needs to be clear. Also, who knows? She may actually catch fire)


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Say she gets a day shift job. She still lives 45 minutes away.
> 
> School. If she is wanting shared custody, we'd both need to live close to D6's school. She would either need to break her lease or I would need to move closer to her.
> 
> House. I'm assuming she'd still want the house sold. So it would probably be up to me to move and find a school close to daughter's mom.
> 
> Custody. I have primary. Split would be best for D6... IF X steps it up and maintains.
> 
> Support. I would still have no family support.
> 
> Compromise. I would be living in a state I dislike with no family. She would be changing an employer she never really liked anyway.


Stop fixing you cute little codependent you.

You have your plan A. This one is on her.


----------



## GutPunch

Are you sure split custody is best for your D? Stability is what she needs.


----------



## zillard

Arrrrgh. 

Time to lead. But don't fix, it's on her. 

How about:

Prove it by the end of March(?) and I'll consider it. Meanwhile I still plan on listing the house in early March, as previously agreed. 

Let me know how your plan would be beneficial to everyone re: custody, school arrangements, etc.


----------



## hope4family




----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Arrrrgh.
> 
> Time to lead. But don't fix, it's on her.
> 
> How about:
> 
> Prove it by the end of March(?) and I'll consider it. Meanwhile I still plan on listing the house in early March, as previously agreed.
> 
> Let me know how your plan would be beneficial to everyone re: custody, school arrangements, etc.


And then go dark.

This is just right.

If she wants to negotiate a few more weeks, go ahead and be a nice guy and give it to her. She needs to sign on.

Then get yourself some popcorn.


----------



## zillard

Regardless, I am filing the papers as they are (I am custodial parent with permission to move).


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Regardless, I am filing the papers as they are (I am custodial parent with permission to move).


Absolutely.


----------



## turnera

> I'm willing to look for a day shift job if you're willing to stay in state. Not seeing D6 is gonna kill me.
> 
> You have to really be willing to stay here, though. I've been talking to some of my divorced friends and they all have shared custody. They've each tried to leave state and not being around their kids was too much.
> 
> I'm willing to compromise if you are.


Let me know when you have that day job and have moved to within 15 minutes of this house. If I'm still in the state and haven't sold the house, we'll talk.


----------



## zillard

Ahh. I didn't reply yet. She sent another:

"I'm not fvcking around. This is serious."


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Ahh. I didn't reply yet. She sent another:
> 
> "I'm not fvcking around. This is serious."


"I'm not ok with belligerence"


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Let me know when you have that day job and have moved to within 15 minutes of this house. If I'm still in the state and haven't sold the house, we'll talk.


House is to be sold and split 50/50 per divorce papers. That would in effect be asking her to give up her share or agreeing to buy her out, which I cannot do.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> House is to be sold and split 50/50 per divorce papers. That would in effect be asking her to give up her share or agreeing to buy her out, which I cannot do.


She makes you an offer you are "ok with" and you'll change your mind.

Pass the popcorn.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> "I'm not ok with belligerence"


This assumes the tone is angry though. She could be weepy and trying (poorly) to convince me she is sincere.


----------



## terrence4159

my opinion Z do what you planned move and get on with your life. the whole situation will be better for both you and D6. you family support system back there will do wonders for both of you. 

if she is serious about changing she will move closer.


----------



## turnera

I agree. Now is NOT the time to compromise. Do what you need to do. If she gets her head out of her azz and makes changes, you can look at getting back together. In YOUR state.


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> House is to be sold and split 50/50 per divorce papers. That would in effect be asking her to give up her share or agreeing to buy her out, which I cannot do.


 How so? She's free to do whatever she wants; she moved once, she can move again. Regardless of what the D entails.


----------



## zillard

How poetic would it be to reply, "I don't know".


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> This assumes the tone is angry though. She could be weepy and trying (poorly) to convince me she is sincere.


When someone tells me they're not "fvcking around", they're angry.


----------



## terrence4159

angry lost and desperate.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> When someone tells me they're not "fvcking around", they're angry.


She's scared. Probably scared that Z won't be there to be her safety net anymore... and scared that she won't be able to see D6 as much as she'd like.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> How so? She's free to do whatever she wants; she moved once, she can move again. Regardless of what the D entails.


Because if I don't sell she could come after me for the money later.


----------



## K.C.

Z you have made so much progress. Would you feel compromising here is in keeping with the man you want to be? Not a loaded question, I honstly wonder.

It seems you are sorely tempted. If that is the old you speaking at the expense of the new you could find yourself regretting it. You have to be faithfull to your true self not the old you.

Besides, she hasn't actually "done" anything yet so far as I can see. Actions not words right?


----------



## terrence4159

stay the course man it is going to get bumpy but hang on. if you ever need to vent we are here if you ever need to just slap someone Garry is your man


----------



## zillard

K.C. said:


> Z you have made so much progress. Would you feel compromising here is in keeping with the man you want to be? Not a loaded question, I honstly wonder.
> 
> It seems you are sorely tempted. If that is the old you speaking at the expense of the new you could find yourself regretting it. You have to be faithfull to your true self not the old you.
> 
> Besides, she hasn't actually "done" anything yet so far as I can see. Actions not words right?


New me wants to move. 
New me is confident I could also be happy here. alone. 
Old me wants to stay for a slightly bigger shred of hope.
Me the Father wants to put D6 first. 
Old me wants D6 close to her mom. 
New me wants D6 close to her improved mom but realizes that's out of my control.

No, she has not yet done much. She has been more attentive and engaged with D6 than when she lived here. 

If I did stay it would be a trial period. I will not commit to staying here for good.


----------



## hope4family

Unless Subway girl really is that awesome. Don't commit to anything.


----------



## terrence4159

if you stay for trial period then you will stay for longer. i understand the D6 dilema i really do had 9month old when wife left. i was so so worried for him he is now a healthy 9 year old kid and no my XW not a good mom, not abusive but he comes in 3 to her husband and new kids.


----------



## K.C.

I don't envy you the decision. You have to be happy with whatever you choose. You need to be true to the new you but an assertive positive person is willing to compromise at the right time.

I wish I could say whether this is the right time but I can't. I would always choose to put my boys first but what is in D's interest? An engaged attentive Mum in addition to rhe great Dad you are dedicated to being for sure. Is enabling her mum to be that going to cost you the happiness and contentment you need to be a great Dad.

Would it be such a stretch for her to follow you guys for D's sake? I think I recall you saying where you are going would be better for D? On that basis it wouldnt matter what works for Mum. D comes first and Mum should be willing to adapt to that not the other way round.


----------



## Garry2012

terrence4159 said:


> stay the course man it is going to get bumpy but hang on. if you ever need to vent we are here if you ever need to just slap someone Garry is your man


Thats cold T....real cold.


----------



## terrence4159

:scratchhead: what garry i dont know what you are talking about


----------



## Garry2012

Well, I am literate...despite what my STBXW says....


----------



## zillard

I sent it. "Prove this to me by the end of March and I'll seriously consider it. Meanwhile I still plan on listing the house in early March, as previously agreed. 

Let me know how your plan would be beneficial to everyone re: parenting time, school arrangements, location, etc. 

Thank you."


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I sent it. "Prove this to me by the end of March and I'll seriously consider it. Meanwhile I still plan on listing the house in early March, as previously agreed.
> 
> Let me know how your plan would be beneficial to everyone re: parenting time, school arrangements, location, etc.
> 
> Thank you."


Bet that felt good to send.

You're not fvcking around either.

High time she knew it.


----------



## zillard

hell yeah it felt good. I sent the other too. "I'm not ok with belligerence. I understand that this is serious."


----------



## zillard

X - I'm not trying to be belligerent. I'm serious, and this is a big deal for me. For us. You know how I speak. It shouldn't surprise you at this point. Why do you always make me feel so small?

Z - Tone is difficult to interpret in short emails. 

X - You know my tone. You've been exposed to it for the past 10 years. 

Z - I'm sorry you feel small after reading what I wrote. 


This happened in between my reply re: belligerence and my reply re: day job. 

No response yet. Popcorn ready. 

If patterns repeat, she'll discuss all this with young, single coworkers, possibly posOM, and then I'll receive an email around 2-3am either tomorrow or the next day.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> X - I'm not trying to be belligerent. I'm serious, and this is a big deal for me. For us. You know how I speak. It shouldn't surprise you at this point. Why do you always make me feel so small?
> 
> Z - Tone is difficult to interpret in short emails.
> 
> X - You know my tone. You've been exposed to it for the past 10 years.
> 
> Z - I'm sorry you feel small after reading what I wrote.
> 
> 
> This happened in between my reply re: belligerence and my reply re: day job.
> 
> No response yet. Popcorn ready.
> 
> If patterns repeat, she'll discuss all this with young, single coworkers, possibly posOM, and then I'll receive an email around 2-3am either tomorrow or the next day.


Are you laughing yet?


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Are you laughing yet?


Ha. Yes. 

This part in particular: 

"You know my tone. You've been exposed to it for the past 10 years."

I almost replied: 

EXACTLY


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Ha. Yes.
> 
> This part in particular:
> 
> "You know my tone. You've been exposed to it for the past 10 years."
> 
> I almost replied:
> 
> EXACTLY


So tempting, isn't it?

The search for codependent Zillard continues!

"Nobody home!"... LOL


----------



## turnera

Pbartender said:


> She's scared. Probably scared that Z won't be there to be her safety net anymore... and scared that she won't be able to see D6 as much as she'd like.


My guess is that, since she talked to 'several' people who've divorced, she got 'several' responses to the tune of 'What? You are ABANDONING your child? What kind of mother ARE you?' as they scoot their chairs away from her. This BS never occurred to her until she talked to other women and got 'that look.'


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> My guess is that, since she talked to 'several' people who've divorced, she got 'several' responses to the tune of 'What? You are ABANDONING your child? What kind of mother ARE you?' as they scoot their chairs away from her. This BS never occurred to her until she talked to other women and got 'that look.'


Yes! A look that she'll get from here on out. 

Not to mention the huge red flag to a prospective SO. 

Scarlet letter indeed.


----------



## zillard

Funny how when I ask her if she wants to stay married or not she doesn't know and needs time to figure it out. The only thing she was sure of is she had no idea what would happen in the next 3-6 months. 

Then as soon as she says she is willing to change jobs she expects me to respond immediately. When I don't within an hour she started wiggin. 

How the tables have turned.

Who here thinks it is a coincidence that this is happening 2 days before BVD-Day?


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Then as soon as she says she is willing to change jobs she expects me to respond immediately. When I don't within an hour she started wiggin.


You realize this STILL indicates she values her time well above yours. That's disrespect.

Zillard, you are seeing through yourself and through her.

Excellent work.


----------



## terrence4159

How is D6 handling this now? or how is the little angel holding up?


----------



## zillard

D6 is doing ok. 

She is doing excellent in school. Just got placed in an an advanced program. I worry she is becoming more focused on her work though and shying away from her peers. 

She is expressing more anger with me, which is good. Usually at bed time is when she starts talking about her feelings. When she is mad I encourage her to kick her legs up and down on the bed and do it with her. We kick as long as she needs to get out her frustration. 

The other night instead of kicking she was wringing a bunched up section of her blanket together in her hands. I told her if she's mad at me it's ok to pretend it's my head and squeeze the crap out of it. She did and instantly after said she felt better. Back to story time. 

She is getting defiant with her mother, I learned. A bit more disobedient with me but mostly letting it slide if not a big issue like food or brushing teeth, etc. Giving her a little leeway as she copes but not too much. 

She is constantly asking about the move - mostly details of the trip as I'll be driving the moving truck and she'll be in a car with her uncles, which is new to her. So she wants walkie talkies for her bday so we can talk during the trip.

We continue doing our "feelings pie charts". Less happiness and excitement lately. 1/2 miss mom. 1/4 mad. 1/4 sad.


----------



## turnera

Remember that kids can't see beyond 2 or 3 months. It's up to you to help her visualize what life will be like in 7 or 12 months.


----------



## terrence4159

you D sounds so awsome what a little trooper! get her the walkie talkies! :smthumbup:

how are you holding up know this is super h#ll on you!


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Remember that kids can't see beyond 2 or 3 months. It's up to you to help her visualize what life will be like in 7 or 12 months.


Yes. have been trying to do this in ways she'll understand. 

Z - you know how after school here we come straight home. There we can stop at grandmas and say hi, or go see cousin A or cousin B. 

Here we have dinner just the two us and go out on this day each week. There we can eat dinner at grandmas on this day and this day we can have uncle/aunt/etc over for dinner at our house.  



terrence4159 said:


> you D sounds so awsome what a little trooper! get her the walkie talkies! :smthumbup:
> 
> how are you holding up know this is super h#ll on you!


Doing well. Exercise and yoga at night after D6 goes to bed. Really helps the stress level. 

Eating well. Feel great and putting some weight back on that I lost from the stress.

Still doing multiple walks daily to fight smoking urges. Much less anxious lately. On week 3 (other than slip up at the bar). 

Reading my butt off and IC weekly. 7 self-help books within reach right now. 

Breaking down less often and less intense. Sleeping much better. 

Slacking on packing and prepping the house though. Really need to get my butt in gear there. I realize this is due to me holding out hope on some level, but confident I'll be more motivated after papers are filed.


----------



## terrence4159

:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## ReGroup

Zillard, the pie chart - what is her counselor saying about D6's state of mind right now? And how about her teacher? 

I don't know if you posted previously - does her teacher know of your situation. I don't recall if you mentioned it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

I made her teacher and the school counselor aware right away. Teach says she would never know anything was up at home. She is super quiet at school but was before too. 

The IC is worried about her. She says she is a very strong, smart kid with a big heart and isn't worried about her getting through the divorce just fine. She is deeply concerned about the move away from Mom though. She is urging me strongly to reconsider moving because D6's mom means so much to her and the separation is already affecting her strongly emotionally. 

She is idolizing her mother strongly. IC is concerned that if I move with D6 then it will likely damage my relationship with her as well. 

I'm not convinced though. I see how divorced parents where both are doing a great job and co-parenting in the same location is best for the kid. Better than a good parent with much family support + an absent parent. But that is a huge leap of faith to assume that X will be that type of parent if I stay.


----------



## Conrad

Zillard,

I hear your conflict.

You are going to have to make her show her hand.


----------



## GutPunch

Huge leap of faith is right. IDK man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Either way, the divorce paperwork has to give you the permission to move. So, full speed ahead.


----------



## ReGroup

Its like I want to shake this woman to figure out what is going on in that head of hers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> Its like I want to shake this woman to figure out what is going on in that head of hers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Everything - and nothing.


----------



## 06Daddio08

ReGroup said:


> Its like I want to shake this woman to figure out what is going on in that head of hers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You will never know.

Best to leave it that way.


----------



## zillard

If what she says is true, then she:

Wants D6 as far away from her as possible so she doesn't damage her like her own mother did.

Wants to discover herself and be free.

Wants to be the best mother she possible can be.

Wants to be an awesome co-parent.

Wants me to give D6 the structure and support that she can not.

Wants to give up.

Wants to be the mom she is because that's what she does best.

Wants to never let her daughter out of her sight. 

All at the same time - so yes Conrad - everything and nothing. And this doesn't even touch her mixed feelings for me.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> If what she says is true, then she:
> 
> Wants D6 as far away from her as possible so she doesn't damage her like her own mother did.
> 
> Wants to discover herself and be free.
> 
> Wants to be the best mother she possible can be.
> 
> Wants to be an awesome co-parent.
> 
> Wants me to give D6 the structure and support that she can not.
> 
> Wants to give up.
> 
> Wants to be the mom she is because that's what she does best.
> 
> Wants to never let her daughter out of her sight.
> 
> All at the same time - so yes Conrad - everything and nothing. And this doesn't even touch her mixed feelings for me.


Amazing how similar the stories are.


----------



## zillard

2:15am text message

X - How else could I feel after what you wrote. You minimize me all the time. It makes me feel like sh!t. Always has. 

---

Persecutor didn't work (I'm not fvcking around), so now let's try Victim.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> 2:15am text message
> 
> X - How else could I feel after what you wrote. You minimize me all the time. It makes me feel like sh!t. Always has.
> 
> ---
> 
> Persecutor didn't work (I'm fvckin serious), so now let's try Victim.


You have to be laughing.

Seriously.

This stuff does get funny.


----------



## zillard

Is so twisted and ridiculous. 

She is so gracious and respectful while I'm just a big fat meanie head.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Is so twisted and ridiculous.
> 
> She is so gracious and respectful while I'm just a big fat meanie head.


For those reading along at home, this is what it looks like right before the light bulb turns on.

But, you have to show your mettle and take it to this point.

I'm not saying the light bulb "will" turn on, but this is what simply must be done to maximize that opportunity.

Just imagine trying to "fix" now?


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> 2:15am text message
> 
> X - How else could I feel after what you wrote. You minimize me all the time. It makes me feel like sh!t. Always has.
> 
> ---
> 
> Persecutor didn't work (I'm not fvcking around), so now let's try Victim.


I played that card, constantly, in the beginning.

I hope X knows it doesn't work.


----------



## spun

Conrad said:


> For those reading along at home, this is what it looks like right before the light bulb turns on.
> 
> But, you have to show your mettle and take it to this point.
> 
> I'm not saying the light bulb "will" turn on, but this is what simply must be done to maximize that opportunity.
> 
> Just imagine trying to "fix" now?


She will up the ante yet.

Brace yourself, Z.

And no matter what, stay in the center of that triangle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

What's she doing up at 2am anyway. Ya'know, besides hopefully looking for a new job so she can be closer to her daughter like she said.


----------



## RAN

zillard

Move as per your plans, don't get distracted. 

Or else the values of LIFE you have inherited would become a waste. 

You have to teach the same to your D6, or else she would be like your X (when X is close around) when D6 becomes a good wife & a mother.

Do not let her regret the values of her LIFE.

Best of luck, keep moving inspite of the preasures from your X.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> I played that card, constantly, in the beginning.
> 
> I hope X knows it doesn't work.


Previously it *would* have worked. And did. One of the worst things would be thinking my wife felt like sh!t because of me. 

But I see it for what it is now. She's making herself feel terrible and blaming it on me so she doesn't have to own it. An attempt to manipulate me in to feeling bad so that I will rescue her only so she can become the persecutor again.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Previously it *would* have worked. And did. One of the worst things would be thinking my wife felt like sh!t because of me.
> 
> But I see it for what it is now. She's making herself feel terrible and blaming it on me so she doesn't have to own it. An attempt to manipulate me in to feeling bad so that I will rescue her only so she can become the persecutor again.


Very good, Z.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Previously it *would* have worked. And did. One of the worst things would be thinking my wife felt like sh!t because of me.
> 
> But I see it for what it is now. She's making herself feel terrible and blaming it on me so she doesn't have to own it. An attempt to manipulate me in to feeling bad so that I will rescue her only so she can become the persecutor again.


It's better than that.

What you've done is moved to the center of the triangle, where you merely reflect back her behavior to her.

Much more constructive.

Much less exhausting.

Don't you think?


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Much more constructive.
> 
> Much less exhausting.
> 
> Don't you think?


Absolutely.


----------



## zillard

spun said:


> She will up the ante yet.
> 
> Brace yourself, Z.
> 
> And no matter what, stay in the center of that triangle.


Yes, with the waiting period ending tomorrow she is most likely expecting some pleading from me at the last minute, and baffled as to why it's not coming. 

THAT is probably a big part of why she feels terrible right now. I am not validating. More so, I am confirming the opposite. 



hope4family said:


> What's she doing up at 2am anyway. Ya'know, besides hopefully looking for a new job so she can be closer to her daughter like she said.


She doesn't get off work until 12:30-1:30am. That was one of our big issues. Then she would have to commute 45 mins, then unwind, then get to bed around 4-5am and sleep through D6 getting up and ready for school. 

For a year I did everything but laundry on the weekend. Good for me though. Transition to single dad was pretty simple: Do laundry.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah same here...for the last 2-3 months i have been doing laundry, cleaning the house, making dinners etc. I am ready for single dadship.


----------



## Pbartender

Garry2012 said:


> Yeah same here...for the last 2-3 months i have been doing laundry, cleaning the house, making dinners etc. I am ready for single dadship.


Ditto.

I'd been keeping a "dad journal" since the beginning of the year. Keeping track of the time I spend with the kids and what I do with them, all the housework I do, etc... 

Recently, my attorney suggested that I also keep track of the time my STBXW spends away from home. Especially time she spends away when the kids are home, and time she spends away that isn't related to her work schedule.

I'm beginning to realize that I'm already living like a single Dad who has primary custody, with my STBXW just coming around a couple of days every week for her "visitation" with the kids.


Pb.


----------



## hope4family

You are like me Z. We come from large (no really we do) family's. Adapting and taking care of little ones is something we are shockingly familiar with. 

The transition was hard, but only emotionally. Physically, we had to only flip a switch.


----------



## Chuck71

Her behav-tractions are so close now. behaviour / contractions.....you could never guessed how ticked off she is leading up. she thought you would break at the end (so did mine). it is sad she will not realize your seriousness until....you are gone.

i have never understood why people feed off of co-workers in ways where it shapes their mode of thought. it reminds me of the salon setting in the old Hee Haw skit. Since my final, almost two weeks ago.....I have felt a renewed vigor. I hope you do too. Godspeed to you tomorrow! You will be in my thoughts.


----------



## loveispatient

I don't know how you all do it. Staying disconnected and less emotional about all of this. I do OK sometimes and other times, I'm just tired of the drama, but I find it's a necessary evil in separations/divorce. 

But from a female perspective, I don't mean to take sides or anything, perhaps she's feeling a tad remorseful? I don't mean you have to cut her any slack or be less of a man or take her back by all means. Sometimes being kind (despite what counselors and forums say) makes you the better person. 

You've had the upper-hand from the get-go. No need to keep crushing her each time I guess. 

But that's me... Sorry.


----------



## Conrad

loveispatient said:


> I don't know how you all do it. Staying disconnected and less emotional about all of this. I do OK sometimes and other times, I'm just tired of the drama, but I find it's a necessary evil in separations/divorce.
> 
> But from a female perspective, I don't mean to take sides or anything, perhaps she's feeling a tad remorseful? I don't mean you have to cut her any slack or be less of a man or take her back by all means. Sometimes being kind (despite what counselors and forums say) makes you the better person.
> 
> You've had the upper-hand from the get-go. No need to keep crushing her each time I guess.
> 
> But that's me... Sorry.


Did he have the upper hand when she started banging posOM?


----------



## spun

Conrad said:


> Did he have the upper hand when she started banging posOM?


Exactly.


----------



## hope4family

loveispatient said:


> I don't know how you all do it. Staying disconnected and less emotional about all of this. I do OK sometimes and other times, I'm just tired of the drama, but I find it's a necessary evil in separations/divorce.
> 
> But from a female perspective, I don't mean to take sides or anything, perhaps she's feeling a tad remorseful? I don't mean you have to cut her any slack or be less of a man or take her back by all means. Sometimes being kind (despite what counselors and forums say) makes you the better person.
> 
> You've had the upper-hand from the get-go. No need to keep crushing her each time I guess.
> 
> But that's me... Sorry.


Did he have the upper hand when she said "I don't know."

My nice guy sentimentality is the greatest gift I can give my SO. If their choice is to suddenly say that their needs are greater then mine and our family. Then they are no longer are my SO. They are a person. A human being. I'll give them human being respect, but no longer worthy of SO "kindness". Definitely not my friend.


----------



## loveispatient

Looks guy. I'm not justifying what she did. She's done her part and it's her cross to bear. At the end of the day, we are all responsible for our actions. We all had parts to play in our failed marriages; whether there was OW/OM or not.

All I'm saying is that Z is filing for D. There's no going back to this marriage or to this W. A little kindness at the end of the day goes a lot further that the tick-tack of bickering e-mails. 

But that's my two cents..  Nice thing about this country, is one can agree to disagree!


----------



## Conrad

loveispatient said:


> Looks guy. I'm not justifying what she did. She's done her part and it's her cross to bear. At the end of the day, we are all responsible for our actions. We all had parts to play in our failed marriages; whether there was OW/OM or not.
> 
> All I'm saying is that Z is filing for D. There's no going back to this marriage or to this W. A little kindness at the end of the day goes a lot further that the tick-tack of bickering e-mails.
> 
> But that's my two cents..  Nice thing about this country, is one can agree to disagree!


"Bickering e-mails" is a very dismissive way to refer to this.

He's moving to the center of her Drama Triangle and reflecting back the natural consequences of her behavior on her.

No enabling or fixing - just the light of day.

If she really wants to be "happy", she can claim it by owning her part and risking something by letting him know she's ready.

Her "bickering e-mails" are yet another attempt to blameshift and regain codependent Zillard going forward.

That won't make either of them happy.


----------



## loveispatient

Conrad said:


> "Bickering e-mails" is a very dismissive way to refer to this.
> 
> He's moving to the center of her Drama Triangle and reflecting back the natural consequences of her behavior on her.
> 
> No enabling or fixing - just the light of day.
> 
> If she really wants to be "happy", she can claim it by owning her part and risking something by letting him know she's ready.
> 
> Her "bickering e-mails" are yet another attempt to blameshift and regain codependent Zillard going forward.
> 
> That won't make either of them happy.


Ok, not bickering emails. Just back-and-forth direct e-mails to each other. 

Like I said, they're moving on. Separately from each other. They are definitely not going to make each other happy.


----------



## Chuck71

Z entered the Tao..........great feeling


----------



## Conrad

loveispatient said:


> Ok, not bickering emails. Just back-and-forth direct e-mails to each other.
> 
> Like I said, they're moving on. Separately from each other. They are definitely not going to make each other happy.


They never could.

Each has to claim their own happiness.


----------



## zillard

loveispatient said:


> Looks guy. I'm not justifying what she did. She's done her part and it's her cross to bear. At the end of the day, we are all responsible for our actions. We all had parts to play in our failed marriages; whether there was OW/OM or not.
> 
> All I'm saying is that Z is filing for D. There's no going back to this marriage or to this W. A little kindness at the end of the day goes a lot further that the tick-tack of bickering e-mails.
> 
> But that's my two cents..  Nice thing about this country, is one can agree to disagree!


I am filing for D because of what she refuses to do - recommit and be honest & respectful. 

Being nice is one thing. Turning the other cheek over and over again is being a doormat. 

The nicest thing she has done for me since she moved out is sneak spaghetti sauce into my freezer and tell me she never wanted to hurt me. 

That's IT.

She has not asked to come back. She hasn't offered to do anything at all to make my life easier. 

I helped her pack her things - carefully. I loaded the truck and unloaded it at her new apartment. I gave her whatever she wanted to take with her. I am prepping and selling the house alone even though she gets half the money. I am giving her as many days with D6 as she wants. I have waived child support. I have told her in counseling that I would rather not divorce and that I love her. I have apologized to her for my wrong doings and have asked for her forgiveness. I have called people out for bad mouthing her on facebook. And I am now giving her a chance to convince me to stay in state. 

How would you propose I be any nicer to her?


----------



## Conrad

Why have I been complimenting you?

You did all that crap while I was away?!


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Why have I been complimenting you?
> 
> You did all that crap while I was away?!


I did and am proud of it. 

In context each one was the right thing to do, per my values. 

But accepting the blameshifting and disrespect that she continues to dish out is not.


----------



## ReGroup

"Blameshifting" - at what point does it end? At some point a person has to realize that it's not being constructive.

It's our job not to accept it anymore - but doesn't the other party get worn out by saying the same crap over and over again - even when they don't have an interested audience anymore.


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> "Blameshifting" - at what point does it end? At some point a person has to realize that it's not being constructive.
> 
> It's our job not to accept it anymore - but doesn't the other party get worn out by saying the same crap over and over again - even when they don't have an interested audience anymore.


It ends (for you) when you stop indulging it.


----------



## K.C.

It ends when you own your share of blame. I went from it being mostly her.. To 50~50 to finally realising it was in fact mostly me. Only then did I stop blameshifting and start looking at myself.

Will she ever do that? Maybe, maybe not. If she never wakes up, she'll merrily blameshift until the cow jumps over the moon.


----------



## zillard

K.C. said:


> It ends when you own your share of blame. I went from it being mostly her.. To 50~50 to finally realising it was in fact mostly me. Only then did I stop blameshifting and start looking at myself.
> 
> Will she ever do that? Maybe, maybe not. If she never wakes up, she'll merrily blameshift until the cow jumps over the moon.


Right. And it does go both ways. 

At first I was blameshifting like crazy too. Convinced the marriage was perfect from the beginning and we were happy as clams until the affair, I didn't take responsibility for any of my crap. 

After some IC I learned about adaptive relationships and behavior patterns from childhood and realized I brought a lot of my own baggage into the M. So in a joint session I owned it and apologized for it. 

By accepting that I played a part in making the relationship unhealthy I was able to let go of much anger and resentment. 

I still will never apologize for her affair or for "pushing her to the point where she gave up". That's not mine. 

But I no longer feel the need to throw that in her face either. 

She'll either accept it or live in denial and continue to blameshift. Is up to her.


----------



## Chuck71

standing at the lake, the moon bounced across the water.......i knew.......time to rock


----------



## K.C.

Spot on my man.

Still trying to decide how long I give it before having to live that as well as say it heh.

The way you now handle this is pretty inspiring.


----------



## zillard

Oh, one more thing from yesterday: 

When talking about the new IC sessions she signed up for she told me her IC recommended someone to help her deal with her anxiety. 

X - I am having 3-hour long panic attacks EVERY day. 3 hours! I only have 4 klonopin left! Doesn't matter cuz they don't work anyway.

Z - I'm glad you got a referral.

-----

Taking bets on tonight/early am (last night of waiting period). 

1 - No contact from X
2 - Angry messages
3 - Blameshifting victim messages
4 - Last minute pleading


----------



## Garry2012

I'll go with a 2-3 combination..... Angry blameshifitng
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## K.C.

Too hard to call beyond 1 being least likely.


----------



## 06Daddio08

I won't assume anything.


----------



## GutPunch

I GOT #3

I'm with you Z. I don't think you nor I are going to
get what we want. Time to move forward.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Oh, one more thing from yesterday:
> 
> When talking about the new IC sessions she signed up for she told me her IC recommended someone to help her deal with her anxiety.
> 
> X - I am having 3-hour long panic attacks EVERY day. 3 hours! I only have 4 klonopin left! Doesn't matter cuz they don't work anyway.
> 
> Z - I'm glad you got a referral.
> 
> -----
> 
> Taking bets on tonight/early am (last night of waiting period).
> 
> 1 - No contact from X
> 2 - Angry messages
> 3 - Blameshifting victim messages
> 4 - Last minute pleading


Equal parts 2 and 3


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Oh, one more thing from yesterday:
> 
> When talking about the new IC sessions she signed up for she told me her IC recommended someone to help her deal with her anxiety.
> 
> X - I am having 3-hour long panic attacks EVERY day. 3 hours! I only have 4 klonopin left! Doesn't matter cuz they don't work anyway.
> 
> Z - I'm glad you got a referral.
> 
> -----
> 
> Taking bets on tonight/early am (last night of waiting period).
> 
> 1 - No contact from X
> 2 - Angry messages
> 3 - Blameshifting victim messages
> 4 - Last minute pleading



4, disguised as 2 and 3


----------



## terrence4159

im going with 2/4. shes in the grasping at straws stage she sees what we see the HUGE COCONUTS hanging between Z's legs!!

ps please put something over them not what i want to see


----------



## zillard

I think my bday will be a monkey wrench thrown in the mix, making 4 more likely than it would have been. 

Her anxiety is steadily increasing but I'm not sure she's reached the point of pleading, especially since I gave her until end of March to prove how serious she is. So I'm assuming something similar to her previous emails. 

Weepy guilt with blameshifting and little to no remorse. 

BUT, she will likely see that as remorseful apologies and pleading and go right back to anger when I do not see it as such.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I think my bday will be a monkey wrench thrown in the mix, making 4 more likely than it would have been.
> 
> Her anxiety is steadily increasing but I'm not sure she's reached the point of pleading, especially since I gave her until end of March to prove how serious she is. So I'm assuming something similar to her previous emails.
> 
> Weepy guilt with blameshifting and little to no remorse.
> 
> BUT, she will likely see that as remorseful apologies and pleading and go right back to anger when I do not see it as such.


If anyone is wondering what Zillard is looking for, they should check HappyKaty's latest thread.

Anything short of that is counterfeit.


----------



## hope4family

I am going to go with 1. 

But i'm expecting a 4.


----------



## Jntrs

wow, your situation is similar to mine, for a munute when i read your first post, i thought it was me, its unbelievable what women do, they got it all in their home but they have the need to go and look for something else out there, then they realized the grass isnt greener on the other side, i will post my situation, i need some good advice too

keep up the good work!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## staystrong

2's leading to 4's, or in reverse order depending on your responses

3 is second nature by now, isn't it? Can't be separated..


----------



## whitehawk

No offense to alll the good ladies round here going through the same as us but - l'm starting to think lately women are just mad- fckd in the head - [email protected] for brains.
l know the trodden on girls through our sad home could say the same about their men l guess , dunno.

But lately l'm thinking , if l can't trust my x to stand and fight and then reading through this place , then what hope is there.

And if they are mad , then how can l put my heart and life in the hands of another one - how ?
lf my x bailed , then any women can , at any time.

l'm lonely as hell , but how the fk could l ever trust another word out of a females mouth that l might fall in love with , ever again ?


----------



## spun

You are projecting your wife's behavior onto ALL women.

Otherwise known as a cognitive distortion.

There's always a chance your partner will walk in any relationship.

The key is knowing what you are and are not OK with and using that to make better choices for YOU in the future.

You can't control anyone but yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## whitehawk

l was the one that wrecked us , but what l couldn't believe was that when l finally woke up and wanted to fix us , she broke up our family and everything we'd been through for 5 yrs to get to this point and took off !
she's not that type , ever. she's her own person and the sort of girl that would keep loving the one man till she died. thats what she was like , just like her grandma did.
so if she did for this , any women could.

so l feel l can't decide , or choose , or predict, ever , no matter what l did, it'll make no difference .
my x was one of the most beautiful people you'd ever meet so what can you do ?

lt's not projecting the actions of one , it's her yeah but it's the othe horror stories right through here , in my area alone , the divorce stats hugely aniciated now by women now , it's the world now , the mentality . What women have become , the whole box and dice.


----------



## K.C.

But thats not all women. There are many women on TAM that would have fought tooth and nail for their family if given the chane. In their case it was an emotiomally broken man causing the damage and not coming around.

You are still empowering your ex by letting her poison you against life. You have yo focus inwards and not on what she did or didnt do.

Society in general may be broken but it isnt one sex or the other to blame.


----------



## spun

Whitehawk,

Have you read DeMello's "Awareness"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## whitehawk

see you see real patterns in all these , even z'z.
20's and 30's , it's find a man , the family , the home , no matter what.
10 or 20 yrs later it's finding myself , the new work crowd all pushing each other , the mc , the l'm not happy , the your not good enough , the l wanna act like l'm 16 again , boys boys boys , the what ever - it's everywhere .


----------



## whitehawk

K.C. said:


> But thats not all women. There are many women on TAM that would have fought tooth and nail for their family if given the chane. In their case it was an emotiomally broken man causing the damage and not coming around.
> 
> You are still empowering your ex by letting her poison you against life. You have yo focus inwards and not on what she did or didnt do.
> 
> Society in general may be broken but it isnt one sex or the other to blame.



Yeah sad but true KC , TAM is the place to find our new women. If l ever have a new one she better have been through this crap , it's the only way a women will appreciate what she has these days .


----------



## K.C.

Thats society breaking down. Just as many men fall prey as women.

We are responsible for ourselves regardless of sex. If you choose to turn your back due to the pain it is yoir choice to do that and no amoint of finger pointing will change that.

Stop being a victim and start being a survivor. Become a better man. Become happy with you. All that stuff.

Comes down to quit whining and blaming, just get on with things.


----------



## whitehawk

spun said:


> Whitehawk,
> 
> Have you read DeMello's "Awareness"?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



nahh, thanks but no thanks. had enough of books trying to tell us how to fix our - or my anyway , fkd up marriage .
l already knew , send it to my wife
lf we read all the books people recommend round here , we'd be too old by then to care anymore.

you see , good men and women cop it , bad men and women cop it . it's not about you , you have zero control and if you think you do then this hasn't happened to you but thanks al the same . it is appreciated .


----------



## K.C.

Actually that one isnt about fixing your marriage. Its about fixing yourself and a very good read.


----------



## whitehawk

K.C. said:


> Thats society breaking down. Just as many men fall prey as women.
> 
> We are responsible for ourselves regardless of sex. If you choose to turn your back due to the pain it is yoir choice to do that and no amoint of finger pointing will change that.
> 
> Stop being a victim and start being a survivor. Become a better man. Become happy with you. All that stuff.
> 
> Comes down to quit whining and blaming, just get on with things.



Ahh , just sayin KC . l'm doing all that mate and more , have been just like you , since this hell began - no choice as you know.

but this , this is just thoughts on this , that l've been having lately, practicality .

ps , sorry z didn't mean to bring your thread down.

ps , don't worry l'm dropping this like a hot potato right now but no , read the stats. Women by far outnumber and initiate divorce and separation now , by far !


----------



## K.C.

I totally get it.

My wife made a big decision base on my actions and inactions. She isnt blame free but I won't use sociatal issues to absolve blame or make generalisations about half the hunan population.


----------



## zillard

5:43am text

X -  

-----

Fishing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## K.C.

Nice. Which category we putting it under?


----------



## HappyKaty

That's a 4, dear. She just has too much pride to do it the right way.

Stay the course.

That pride will diminish rapidly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

i see #3 for $800 Alex! #2 incognito............too proud for #4 in person.

My ex's pride is awash..........but......it's not my problem any longer. Within a few days.....see #5 all the above


----------



## zillard

Selfish and disrespectful category.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

in my thoughts..................13 days prior here. happy b-day


----------



## zillard

Ah, there was a text before that one;

:

Just eyeballs. lol

Translation:

I've been up drinking all night thinking of you and crying. Wake up early and think of me. Respond. please.

please.....

HappyKaty is right. #4 w/a heaping side of pride - garnished with fear


----------



## HappyKaty

Happy birthday, sweetie!


----------



## K.C.

Happy birthday Z.


----------



## Jntrs

happy bday!


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> in my thoughts..................13 days prior here. happy b-day





HappyKaty said:


> Happy birthday, sweetie!


Thanks you two! Have a great VDay.


----------



## Chuck71

i have to find a way to stay on TAM until July to get a HB lol


----------



## HappyKaty

Chuck71 said:


> i have to find a way to stay on TAM until July to get a HB lol


Lol! Me, too, right?

July what?


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Ah, there was a text before that one;
> 
> :
> 
> Just eyeballs. lol
> 
> Translation:
> 
> I've been up drinking all night thinking of you and crying. Wake up early and think of me. Respond. please.
> 
> please.....


Either that, or she flubbed the frowny face emoticon on the first try.

And Happy Birthday.


Pb.


----------



## Garry2012

Happy Birthday Z!! Hang tough.


----------



## Chuck71

Happy...................26th.....my BD is what NY statehood! yee haw
Dads was today; moms is tax day.....i was cheated LOL


----------



## 06Daddio08

Happy day of birth!


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> Either that, or she flubbed the frowny face emoticon on the first try.
> 
> And Happy Birthday.
> 
> 
> Pb.


Yes... hence the assumption she'd been drinkin


----------



## hope4family

Oh yeah, why didn't I put two and two together. Happy Birthday. I hope you enjoy your day.


----------



## Chuck71

PD @ courthouse............................how classic


----------



## Conrad

whitehawk said:


> nahh, thanks but no thanks. had enough of books trying to tell us how to fix our - or my anyway , fkd up marriage .
> l already knew , send it to my wife
> lf we read all the books people recommend round here , we'd be too old by then to care anymore.
> 
> you see , good men and women cop it , bad men and women cop it . it's not about you , you have zero control and if you think you do then this hasn't happened to you but thanks al the same . it is appreciated .


It's not a book about marriage.

It's a book about fixing you.

Bad idea to pass it up.


----------



## Conrad

whitehawk said:


> No offense to alll the good ladies round here going through the same as us but - l'm starting to think lately women are just mad- fckd in the head - [email protected] for brains.
> l know the trodden on girls through our sad home could say the same about their men l guess , dunno.
> 
> But lately l'm thinking , if l can't trust my x to stand and fight and then reading through this place , then what hope is there.
> 
> And if they are mad , then how can l put my heart and life in the hands of another one - how ?
> lf my x bailed , then any women can , at any time.
> 
> l'm lonely as hell , but how the fk could l ever trust another word out of a females mouth that l might fall in love with , ever again ?


My God.

She only did what you allowed her to do.

Man up for God's sake.


----------



## ReGroup

Happy Birthday Zillard! Great days going forward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## loveispatient

Many happy returns of the day...


----------



## Chuck71

WhiteHawk
broken soldier is unable to fix self
therefore war is lost cause
healed soldier fixed self
war is won...just matter of time

pity party vs. living again you're choice

you can rise as a phoenix from the ashes..i did...so will you


----------



## zillard

Arrived at the courthouse at 2:25pm. 

Filed the final decree for review/approval by the judge. Supplied 2 self-addressed, stamped envelopes for the return of the stamped papers to X and me. 

Is fitting that the stamps I just bought from a cashier have two words on them: Justice. Forever.

I made it to the school to pickup D6 with 5 minutes to spare. We got home and she pulled out a piece of paper with a "treasure map" drawn on it. It was a map of our house with an X marking the spot where she hid a present for me behind the couch days earlier. 

So clever and adorable. My kid is awesome. I don't even care that the present was 2 B-rated movies from the dollar bin that her mother picked out for her. The treasure map was just what I needed today. As I embark on my new journey into a different life - a different me - my daughter is there to help guide me. 

3:14pm 

Text message from X. 

"happy birthday"


Indeed.


----------



## hope4family

Happy Birthday and well done. I am cracking open a beer tonight for you!


----------



## turnera

Happy birthday!


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Arrived at the courthouse at 2:25pm.
> 
> Filed the final decree for review/approval by the judge. Supplied 2 self-addressed, stamped envelopes for the return of the stamped papers to X and me.
> 
> Is fitting that the stamps I just bought from a cashier have two words on them: Justice. Forever.
> 
> I made it to the school to pickup D6 with 5 minutes to spare. We got home and she pulled out a piece of paper with a "treasure map" drawn on it. It was a map of our house with an X marking the spot where she hid a present for me behind the couch days earlier.
> 
> So clever and adorable. My kid is awesome. I don't even care that the present was 2 B-rated movies from the dollar bin that her mother picked out for her. The treasure map was just what I needed today. As I embark on my new journey into a different life - a different me - my daughter is there to help guide me.
> 
> 3:14pm
> 
> Text message from X.
> 
> "happy birthday"
> 
> 
> Indeed.


Congrats.

This is the way it must go - for now


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Congrats.
> 
> This is the way it must go - for now


Yes - anything else would be a major setback for me, which would be terrible. 

For D6 and me.


----------



## terrence4159

Happy birthday z!!!


----------



## zillard

Thank you all for the bday wishes. Is so great to have such a support system. 

X agreed to take care of 3 items on D6's bday list. When I dropped her off she told me she couldn't find the items and only got 1 of them. 

I calmly said ok. She asked if I wanted to meet at her apt tomorrow before going to zoo with D6. I told her no, I will meet them at the zoo. 

30 minutes after I left I had the missing items and they will now be from me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Thank you all for the bday wishes. Is so great to have such a support system.
> 
> X agreed to take care of 3 items on D6's bday list. When I dropped her off she told me she couldn't find the items and only got 1 of them.
> 
> I calmly said ok. She asked if I wanted to meet at her apt tomorrow before going to zoo with D6. I told her no, I will meet them at the zoo.
> 
> 30 minutes after I left I had the missing items and they will now be from me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cool

Firm

Dispassionate

Excellent Z.

Happy Birthday


----------



## whitehawk

Conrad said:


> My God.
> 
> She only did what you allowed her to do.
> 
> Man up for God's sake.




man up you kidding me, you don't know anything about my marriage or what l've coped with and more in the last 4mths than my life time and it's been a life 3x most believe me.
what a line . so everyone here could have saved their marriage including you but we all allowed it - yeah right !
Sorry man l know you've been there for a lot of people here but !


----------



## whitehawk

zillard said:


> Arrived at the courthouse at 2:25pm.
> 
> Filed the final decree for review/approval by the judge. Supplied 2 self-addressed, stamped envelopes for the return of the stamped papers to X and me.
> 
> Is fitting that the stamps I just bought from a cashier have two words on them: Justice. Forever.
> 
> I made it to the school to pickup D6 with 5 minutes to spare. We got home and she pulled out a piece of paper with a "treasure map" drawn on it. It was a map of our house with an X marking the spot where she hid a present for me behind the couch days earlier.
> 
> So clever and adorable. My kid is awesome. I don't even care that the present was 2 B-rated movies from the dollar bin that her mother picked out for her. The treasure map was just what I needed today. As I embark on my new journey into a different life - a different me - my daughter is there to help guide me.
> 
> 3:14pm
> 
> Text message from X.
> 
> "happy birthday"
> 
> 
> Indeed.



yeah sometimes i think just when do we stop thinking like them with mine. 
good luck z and happy birthday .


----------



## BFGuru

Happy birthday, and your wee one is the bomb.


----------



## ReGroup

White Hawk - its not to be taken personal... We do need to Man Up in a way. Don't take it literally - more like room for growth as men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## terrence4159

I dont know if ive told you this ZILLARD but you are an AWSOME dad and D6 is lucky to have you (and you her). i know it doesnt mean much if anything but im PROUD of you Z!! you are what all dads should be!


----------



## whitehawk

ReGroup said:


> White Hawk - its not to be taken personal... We do need to Man Up in a way. Don't take it literally - more like room for growth as men.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thanks rg but don't worry , there's been plenty of growth lately too , you have no choice.
but anyway , ease up on ourselves l say , we didn't quit and walk , they did . lt doesn't matter why .
we all had complaints don't forget , everyone. My parents went through 20 x more than we did, but didn't run away and neither did we . but anyway , far to many bigger things to worry about right now , like losing my house , so !


----------



## 06Daddio08

whitehawk said:


> thanks rg but don't worry , there's been plenty of growth lately too , *you have no choice*.
> but anyway , ease up on ourselves l say ,* we didn't quit and walk , they did . lt doesn't matter why* .
> we all had complaints don't forget , everyone. My parents went through 20 x more than we did, but didn't run away and neither did we . but anyway , *far to many bigger things to worry about right now , like losing my house , so !*





> you have no choice


You always have a choice.



> we didn't quit and walk , they did . lt doesn't matter why


It sure as hell does matter why. Do you really want to repeat the same things time and time again in your life? Or is it the simple fact that you can continue to blame others that will keep you going?



> far to many bigger things to worry about right now , like losing my house


Yes, it's a horrible feeling to lose your house. Yet, one of the easiest things to recover from out of all of this.


You are more than entitled to your opinion. But it sure is a sour one.


----------



## whitehawk

Chuck71 said:


> WhiteHawk
> broken soldier is unable to fix self
> therefore war is lost cause
> healed soldier fixed self
> war is won...just matter of time
> 
> pity party vs. living again you're choice
> 
> you can rise as a phoenix from the ashes..i did...so will you



thanks chucky , nice one.
but mate people misunderstood what i tried to say and l'm going to drop it from here ok but - 
l've risen as l've said , nothing l've tried to say has anything to do with self pity mate , that's not where l'm at at all . well not on good days anyway.
to be honest mate , l feel like z , the stuff l've achieved, l just haven't been here telling everyone about it.
l did try it actually but just too time consuming for me and l ended up dropping the threads every time.

my simple point is something you'll realize when a new women comes along and anyone he or she has those same thoughts trying again. we'd be a fool if you didn't.


----------



## whitehawk

06Daddio08 said:


> You always have a choice.
> 
> 
> 
> It sure as hell does matter why. Do you really want to repeat the same things time and time again in your life? Or is it the simple fact that you can continue to blame others that will keep you going?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it's a horrible feeling to lose your house. Yet, one of the easiest things to recover from out of all of this.
> 
> 
> You are more than entitled to your opinion. But it sure is a sour one.



l don't believe this . will you guys drop this crap please . you think i don't know what your saying - holy fk what the hell have l been doing to get through this.
you miss my point entirely guys - lets drop it hey .

ps , and yes of course why matters give me some credit.
my point was whys whys , yeah sure , everyone has them but you fix them you don't bail.
go check the 2012 divorce rate now.
and choice , go do some reading man and also read something l pointed out first up , no actually don 't . you just miss my point that's all but to hell with it.
anyway , done !


----------



## 06Daddio08

whitehawk said:


> l don't believe this . will you guys drop this crap please . you think i don't know what your saying - holy fk what the hell have l been doing to get through this.
> you miss my point entirely guys - lets drop it hey .
> 
> ps , and yes of course why matters give me some credit.
> my point was whys whys , yeah sure , everyone has them but you fix them you don't bail.
> go check the *2012 divorce rate now*.
> and choice , go do some reading man and also read something l pointed out first up , no actually don 't . you just miss my point that's all but to hell with it.
> anyway , done !


Why would I allow some statistic to dictate my life?

91.3% of all statistics are made up anyways.

Clearly, I do not get it. :smthumbup:


----------



## Chuck71

I agree 87.6% lmao


----------



## Conrad

whitehawk said:


> thanks rg but don't worry , there's been plenty of growth lately too , you have no choice.
> but anyway , ease up on ourselves l say , we didn't quit and walk , they did . lt doesn't matter why .
> we all had complaints don't forget , everyone. My parents went through 20 x more than we did, but didn't run away and neither did we . but anyway , far to many bigger things to worry about right now , like losing my house , so !


The Drama Triangle: Persecutor, Victim and and Rescuer


----------



## RAN

Happy Birth Day Z


----------



## Garry2012

how are you today Z?


----------



## hope4family

Garry2012 said:


> how are you today Z?


+1 how was your bday? Is the new movie any good?


----------



## zillard

Bday was pretty good. Didn't catch the movie, it was too packed. 

Went to the corner Pizza/Pub, had dinner and some drinks. Met new people and turned down a proposition. Came home early and took it easy. Wrapped gifts for D6. 

11:56pm
X - I wish you didn't make me feel like an ass all the time. I'm trying so hard, you have no idea.

3:45am
X - Would you like to meet here or at the zoo? I still need to buy cupcakes.

6:26am
X - Can you pick up cupcakes on the way over, please? I'll pay you for them. I totally spaced it yesterday when I hit multiple stores.

9:03am
Z - Zoo. Yes.


----------



## zillard

Pulled into the zoo(45min trip) with 2 mins to spare. Saw I got a text from X 10 mins ago sayin she slept through her alarm and they just woke up. "We might be a little late".

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

Dude...that..sucks.


----------



## turnera

Selfish people do selfish things. 

They oughta teach a class in reading people.


----------



## zillard

Sitting on bench ouside in the sun. Feels like 65 degrees. Slight breeze. Birds chirping. Some kids laughing and running around playing tag. Scenery is beautiful. 

I'm excited to see D6 and watch her face as she meets the giraffe, pets the stingrays, rides the camel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

65! WTH! SMH! 
Enjoy the day - D6 is going to love the zoo... Especially that mom and pops are there with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Yes, it is a beautiful day!

Still waiting. I'm thankful my parents encouraged scouting. I took "be prepared" to heart. The spare granola bar, applesauce squeeze and water bottle in my car came in handy. Enjoying a picnic in the sun.

Was approached by a gorgeous woman and had a good conversation while she waited for her daughter. 

Happiness is about enjoying the little things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Bday was pretty good. Didn't catch the movie, it was too packed.
> 
> Went to the corner Pizza/Pub, had dinner and some drinks. Met new people and turned down a proposition. Came home early and took it easy. Wrapped gifts for D6.
> 
> 11:56pm
> X - I wish you didn't make me feel like an ass all the time. I'm trying so hard, you have no idea.
> 
> 3:45am
> X - Would you like to meet here or at the zoo? I still need to buy cupcakes.
> 
> 6:26am
> X - Can you pick up cupcakes on the way over, please? I'll pay you for them. I totally spaced it yesterday when I hit multiple stores.
> 
> 9:03am
> Z - Zoo. Yes.


Just imagine those kind of hornets buzzing in your head


----------



## zillard

Haha. No thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

I had an excellent time at the zoo. It went amazingly well. 

I bought the tickets and paid for all the extras. X offered to pay for something and I told her, "No. I will get it all today and keep track. Then I will let you know how much to split it."

I planned and had a list of all the special feature times. X wanted to let D7 go wherever she wanted willy nilly but I took charge. I asked D7 if she wanted to meet the giraffe, etc. She said yes. 

Z - "then we need to stick to my plan or we'll miss them" 

D7 got to do all the things that she wanted and a few more before the zoo closed. She had a blast. 

X tried in the friendly chit chat quite a few times but I diverted or got distracted with D7. 

One awkward moment. All three of us up against the glass of the baboon exhibit. One baboon walked right up to the other side of the glass, not a foot away. Another ran up behind it and starting humping it like crazy. 

D7 - "that was funny. let's go see the Rhino!"

We went back to X's apartment to open presents. Daughter had asked for cupcakes instead of cake. I can't eat them due to the dairy. D7 wanted me to enjoy dessert too so asked her mom if I could have the fortune cookie from their take out last night. 

Fortune: Always remember where you are going and never forget where you've been.


----------



## K.C.

Sounds great and that fortune is so very apt!


----------



## whitehawk

zillard said:


> I had an excellent time at the zoo. It went amazingly well.
> 
> I bought the tickets and paid for all the extras. X offered to pay for something and I told her, "No. I will get it all today and keep track. Then I will let you know how much to split it."
> 
> I planned and had a list of all the special feature times. X wanted to let D7 go wherever she wanted willy nilly but I took charge. I asked D7 if she wanted to meet the giraffe, etc. She said yes.
> 
> Z - "then we need to stick to my plan or we'll miss them"
> 
> D7 got to do all the things that she wanted and a few more before the zoo closed. She had a blast.
> 
> X tried in the friendly chit chat quite a few times but I diverted or got distracted with D7.
> 
> One awkward moment. All three of us up against the glass of the baboon exhibit. One baboon walked right up to the other side of the glass, not a foot away. Another ran up behind it and starting humping it like crazy.
> 
> D7 - "that was funny. let's go see the Rhino!"
> 
> We went back to X's apartment to open presents. Daughter had asked for cupcakes instead of cake. I can't eat them due to the dairy. D7 wanted me to enjoy dessert too so asked her mom if I could have the fortune cookie from their take out last night.
> 
> Fortune: Always remember where you are going and never forget where you've been.


Those baboons are horny bastards :lol:


----------



## zillard

Met a new girl last night. 38 yo mother of 2 with her head screwed on straight (so it seems so far anyway). 60% custody. 

Things went well. Both agree to take it slow but want to see where it goes. Excited to do so.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> Met a new girl last night. 38 yo mother of 2 with her head screwed on straight (so it seems so far anyway). 60% custody.
> 
> Things went well. Both agree to take it slow but want to see where it goes. Excited to do so.


:smthumbup:

Might be time for myself to hit up a couple pubs with a few friends me thinks!


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> Might be time for myself to hit up a couple pubs with a few friends me thinks!


Do it. I go alone to a place on the corner. It's a Chicago Pizza place, mostly restaurant with a small bar and pool tables. A lot of families in and out so the patrons are better than a dive bar.


----------



## Stella Moon

zillard said:


> Met a new girl last night. 38 yo mother of 2 with her head screwed on straight (so it seems so far anyway). 60% custody.
> 
> Things went well. Both agree to take it slow but want to see where it goes. Excited to do so.


If you stop flirting with me I'm going to be pizzed


----------



## zillard

Texts today:

X - I'm going to bring her back tomorrow night, if that's ok. I need to get to work way early to talk to hr about a shift change. Theyre gone by the time I start. 

(she starts at 4:30pm. way early is still in the afternoon)

Z - I have plans tomorrow night. 

(possible date with 38)

X - Ok. You told me Friday that either day would be fine. 

Z - Yes, I did. And you chose Monday and we agreed to work out the drop off time. Then I made plans.

X - Thanks.


----------



## zillard

Stella Moon said:


> If you stop flirting with me I'm going to be pizzed


I could never stop flirting with someone so stellar.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Texts today:
> 
> X - I'm going to bring her back tomorrow night, if that's ok. I need to get to work way early to talk to hr about a shift change. Theyre gone by the time I start.
> 
> (she starts at 4:30pm. way early is still in the afternoon)
> 
> Z - I have plans tomorrow night.
> 
> (possible date with 38)
> 
> X - Ok. You told me Friday that either day would be fine.
> 
> Z - Yes, I did. And you chose Monday and we agreed to work out the drop off time. Then I made plans.
> 
> X - Thanks.


Excellent

She's still not quite connecting with the idea that your time is important.

Nothing changes but the date.


----------



## Chuck71

Fortune: Always remember where you are going and never forget where you've been. 

i think i mentioned this before in a post.................Whitesnake-Here I Go Again.

Have a great time on your date. Now w/ex is realizing.....she is not important anymore. Commendable work Z!


----------



## whitehawk

Just walk in alone z , I've always had trouble doing that.
What do you do just go to the bar and pull up a stool or what?
Like next to some one else that's alone to and start talking to them for starters or ?


----------



## zillard

whitehawk said:


> Just walk in alone z , I've always had trouble doing that.
> What do you do just go to the bar and pull up a stool or what?
> Like next to some one else that's alone to and start talking to them for starters or ?


Yes. If I go in alone it's usually to get a burger first and maybe a beer or two with it. I go in it's usually a bunch of guys. I sit close to the one that looks closest in age or just interesting. If any females, gauge your interest and act accordingly. I order my food and enjoy it. I start conversation with a greeting or reaction to a server dropping a dish, whatever. 

After a few nights out the staff knows you so if it's slow you still have someone to converse with. All this applies to a cafe too. You just go where you normally go and make an effort to strike up conversation. Before long you know a bunch of new interesting people.


----------



## Stella Moon

I do this...  

I also bring my ipad...I always either can make conversation with those around me or stay busy on TAM via Ipad with a margarita infront of me...ive never really had issue bellyin' up to a bar alone...I could care less...

I miss being taken out to a fine dinner however...


----------



## zillard

Stella Moon said:


> I do this...
> 
> I also bring my ipad...I always either can make conversation with those around me or stay busy on TAM via Ipad with a margarita infront of me...ive never really had issue bellyin' up to a bar alone...I could care less...
> 
> I miss being taken out to a fine dinner however...


I would dine you anytime Stella.


----------



## Stella Moon

Sure would be nice...I've got two hot dresses in my closet with their price tags still on them. Sigh...


----------



## whitehawk

That's a classic. Well you've still got it anyway Stell . Fk the ex you'll do just fine with that line , nice thought.

Anyway so you do too hey ! l've always avoided going into a place alone but l've got no one to go anywhere with here so l might have to start getting the hang of it l think.

Good way to go z and at least you can feel free to browse for once too .


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> Texts today:
> 
> X - I'm going to bring her back tomorrow night, if that's ok. I need to get to work way early to talk to hr about a shift change. Theyre gone by the time I start.
> 
> (she starts at 4:30pm. way early is still in the afternoon)
> 
> Z - I have plans tomorrow night.
> 
> (possible date with 38)


If she does change to day shift this quickly, that is an excellent step. However, giving up a night with her child to do so is a bit off target, yeah? 

Waking a bit early should be a mere inconvenience.

But she had a good time at the zoo and saw that I had a good time too. So probably another feeler to test my resolve. To see if I would jump. Just like the trickle truths before confession, lets see if just this little bit will work. If not a little more.


----------



## GutPunch

Uggh! I am glad my STBXW doesn't inundate me with texts. Mine is almost as good at the 180 as me. Stay out of the triangle.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> If she does change to day shift this quickly, that is an excellent step. However, giving up a night with her child to do so is a bit off target, yeah?
> 
> Waking a bit early should be a mere inconvenience.
> 
> But she had a good time at the zoo and saw that I had a good time too. So probably another feeler to test my resolve. To see if I would jump. Just like the trickle truths before confession, lets see if just this little bit will work. If not a little more.


You do realize you're cracking the code.


----------



## hope4family

Stella Moon said:


> Sure would be nice...I've got two hot dresses in my closet with their price tags still on them. Sigh...


I miss buying expensive clothes for my woman. 

The next one is gonna get sooooo spoiled. 

But seriously Stella? A dinner date is all it would take?


----------



## zillard

Yes. I love to treat a lady. 

I bet you open the car door too, hope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HappyKaty

What's wrong with those stupid women y'all married?!


----------



## Stella Moon

HappyKaty said:


> What's wrong with those stupid women y'all married?!


lmao! 

No doubt!


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Yes. I love to treat a lady.
> 
> I bet you open the car door too, hope.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup.


----------



## hope4family

HappyKaty said:


> What's wrong with those stupid women y'all married?!


Our pickers were broken. I'm not perfect by any stretch. But if you write down my pro's and you right down my con's they are just that. Pro's and con's. 

Some love, some hate.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Our pickers were broken. I'm not perfect by any stretch. But if you write down my pro's and you right down my con's they are just that. Pro's and con's.
> 
> Some love, some hate.


Way more pros though... for sure.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> What's wrong with those stupid women y'all married?!


They're about to find out. The hard way.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Way more pros though... for sure.


So true.


----------



## zillard

This is a little weird. 

38 has a japanese-style tiger tattoo down her side. 

I was just chatting with 30 from my hometown (we've been chatting nightly for a few weeks) and she told me how's she getting more work done on the japanese-style tiger tattoo on her back, butt and thighs. 

Is this some sign? Look out for these two.... they will eat you up! Rawr.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> This is a little weird.
> 
> 38 has a japanese-style tiger tattoo down her side.
> 
> I was just chatting with 30 from my hometown (we've been chatting nightly for a few weeks) and she told me how's she getting more work done on the japanese-style tiger tattoo on her back, butt and thighs.
> 
> Is this some sign? Look out for these two.... they will eat you up! Rawr.


Will likely make for some interesting viewing.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> This is a little weird.
> 
> 38 has a japanese-style tiger tattoo down her side.
> 
> I was just chatting with 30 from my hometown (we've been chatting nightly for a few weeks) and she told me how's she getting more work done on the japanese-style tiger tattoo on her back, butt and thighs.
> 
> Is this some sign? Look out for these two.... they will eat you up! Rawr.


I thought this was year of the dragon? Oh well. That is...interesting.


----------



## zillard

Might have to get Chuck to write a new trilogy:

The girls with the tiger tattoos.


----------



## Chuck71

Tiger Tattoos and their Sexual Submissions............
book 1-the taming of the "new"


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> Tiger Tattoos and their Sexual Submissions............
> book 1-the taming of the "new"


Chuck71,

The Bard of the Separation Forum


----------



## Chuck71

lmao Conrad


----------



## zillard

X dropped off D7. 

What do you know? She was early, giving herself enough time to still make it to work before HR leaves - though she didn't mention this. 

She wasn't angry or nervous and didn't mention me refusing to cave. She was pleasant, smiley and talkative. 

Saying no is great. You don't do something you'd rather not, and though people may get angry about it... they get over it if they appreciate you at all. 

Oh - She also made sure to spray D7 with the perfume I bought X for her last Bday. I think she's been doing this for weeks before drop off. Previously I chalked it up to D7 hugging her mom, but it's too strong for transfer like that.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Oh - She also made sure to spray D7 with the perfume I bought X for her last Bday.


Bahaha!

When STBX leaves mail in my box, it smells like the cologne I bought him.

I just shake my head, everytime.


----------



## Garry2012

What is the purpose of that? so you miss how they smell and go running back? lol

I will just tell my current woman to put that perfume on if i liked it THAT much.


----------



## Conrad

Garry2012 said:


> What is the purpose of that? so you miss how they smell and go running back? lol
> 
> I will just tell my current woman to put that perfume on if i liked it THAT much.


It's called giving out "crumbs of love"

Good little codependents suck that crap right up and capitulate.


----------



## hope4family

Oh well. I guess it's her way of getting rid of it.


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> Saying no is great. You don't do something you'd rather not, and though people may get angry about it... they get over it if they appreciate you at all.


Who knew?

Oh yeah...WE DID! :smthumbup:


----------



## Garry2012

so, can i leave a dead skunk in her mailbox too? Kinda the same thing in reverse.....


----------



## zillard

SMH is right. 

Trying just a little bit more.

Also noticed she put a little trinket I got for her at an art show onto her key ring. She's always hated having anything on her key ring.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> It's called giving out "crumbs of love"
> 
> Good little codependents suck that crap right up and capitulate.


Yes, they do. I'm pretty sure I have a couple posts in December whining about the lingering smell of her and how bad I wanted her.

Now it's: Did she...really...ha.

Back to thinkin about tiger tattoos.


----------



## Garry2012

Funny how time does that....seems like you got alot more ahead of you like this i would assume...

I have started talking to someone too...but problem is I def dont want anything serious....for a while...but sure takes your mind off past.


----------



## zillard

Probably, but it's ok. 

I'm starting to get it now, so it bugs less. I'm more confident. I realize that I was pining for her when I should have been pining for me! 

I've been gone from me longer than she has.


----------



## hope4family

There you go. Well spoken Z.


----------



## loveispatient

Funny how that happens, Z.

Now that my "H" in back in-state and want to seek MC and "fix us" I get messages about how much I'm loved or that he misses me. I'm back home (US) after an overseas trip and he's apparently "looking forward to seeing me." He's giving me a ride from the airport back to the house. 

Where was all of that when he decided he was "unhappy" and had issues with everything in our marriage? Now apparently it's only a SMALL portion of unhappiness and that he was mostly happy.... I swear, sometimes I wonder if I really want to take this on in MC or walk away.... 

I'm no where perfect, but at least I'm owning up to my flaws. 

Z- Your X probably realized she just let a "good one" go...the grass always looks greener on the other side, until she made the jump. Too late now.


----------



## Conrad

loveispatient said:


> Funny how that happens, Z.
> 
> Now that my "H" in back in-state and want to seek MC and "fix us" I get messages about how much I'm loved or that he misses me. I'm back home (US) after an overseas trip and he's apparently "looking forward to seeing me." He's giving me a ride from the airport back to the house.
> 
> Where was all of that when he decided he was "unhappy" and had issues with everything in our marriage? Now apparently it's only a SMALL portion of unhappiness and that he was mostly happy.... I swear, sometimes I wonder if I really want to take this on in MC or walk away....
> 
> I'm no where perfect, but at least I'm owning up to my flaws.
> 
> Z- Your X probably realized she just a "good one" go...the grass always looks greener on the other side, until she made the jump. Too late now.


I've known Z when he was just a single eyeball.

Then he filled out into a full-blown skull

Now he's a Renaissance Man


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Funny how time does that....seems like you got alot more ahead of you like this i would assume...
> 
> I have started talking to someone too...but problem is I def dont want anything serious....for a while...but sure takes your mind off past.


Proceed but be honest and take it slow.

I told 30 in my hometown that I want to see her when I get there but am not looking to jump into another relationship right away. 

I told 38 I would lose respect if we had sex and don't want to rush anything. Due to kid schedules we'll probably have a date every other Saturday if it keeps up. But no pressure. 

If anything else it just adds some perspective and confidence. There are other women out there. You have more options, and those options will like you.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Proceed but be honest and take it slow.
> 
> I told 30 in my hometown that I want to see her when I get there but am not looking to jump into another relationship right away.
> 
> I told 38 I would lose respect if we had sex and don't want to rush anything. Due to kid schedules we'll probably have a date every other Saturday if it keeps up. But no pressure.
> 
> If anything else it just adds some perspective and confidence. There are other women out there. You have more options, and those options will like you.


What's actually more important is what will happen when those that "like you" start pushing boundaries.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> What's actually more important is what will happen when those that "like you" start pushing boundaries.


I will stay aware and enforce them, or be back here soon enough.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I will stay aware and enforce them, or be back here soon enough.


Practicing humorous boundary enforcement is truly a joy.

You are totally aware of the primal nature of what's going on.

By making her laugh at how unreasonable she can be, you establish your value and make her want you.


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> Practicing humorous boundary enforcement is truly a joy.
> 
> You are totally aware of the primal nature of what's going on.
> 
> By making her laugh at how unreasonable she can be, you establish your value and make her want you.


Psychology 101! I've always known the rules to the game, I just never put myself out there like a product that is truly my market value. Now I am starting to do it for myself. 

It feels good, although I do not "feel young" I feel like the social personality is catching up with my work personality. 

Work personality, I am likable, successful, legendary, respected, and make the right people very very happy to have me. 

Social personality, i'm still working on it. There are some different boundaries. But I do enjoy it, and people by nature want friends so it's like you fill a need naturally.


----------



## Conrad

I remember the moment I realized the aggressive gung-ho problem solver at work was the aggressively stupid condependent enabling husband.

The skill-sets are in no way interchangeable.


----------



## Chuck71

we all trot around at least 5 faces...........i once thought i had multiple personalities


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> we all trot around at least 5 faces...........i once thought i had multiple personalities


Just different parts of the whole


----------



## K.C.

This rings so true to me.

Sometimes one of them gets so little use for a while we forget its there. When we find it again it just needs a little dusting off and when we put it back we're wondering why we let it get so dusty in the first place.


----------



## zillard

A while back I got Tom Rath's 'Strength Finder 2.0' at work. 

My strengths:

Context
As you look back you see blueprints emerge. This understanding brings you confidence. Faced with new people it will take you time to orient yourself, but you must give yourself time. You must discipline yourself to ask the questions and allow the blueprints to emerge...or you will have less confidence in your decisions.

Achiever
Every day starts at zero. By the end of the day you must achieve something tangible in order to feel good about yourself. No matter how much you may feel you deserve a day of rest, if the day passes without some form of achievement, no matter how small, you will be dissatisfied.

Analytical
Your analytical theme challenges other people: Prove it. You do not necessarily want to destroy other people's ideas, but you do insist that their theories be sound. It is hoped that your analysis is never delivered too harshly. Otherwise, other may avoid you when the wishful thinking is their own

Relator
Once the initial connection is made, you deliberately encourage a deepening of the relationship. You want to understand their feelings, goals, fears, dreams and you want them to understand yours. You know this closeness comes with a risk - you might be taken advantage of - but you are willing to accept the risk. For you a relationship only has value if it is genuine. 

Harmony
You look for areas of agreement. There is little to be gained from conflict and friction. You try to find common ground. You try to steer away from confrontation and toward harmony. In your view we are all in the same boat. It is a good boat. There is no need to rock it just to show that you can. 

-----------

Quite the recipe for a good employee at work... and a great codependent at home, eh.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> -----------
> 
> Quite the recipe for a good employee at work... and a great codependent at home, eh.


I find they fit together like hand in glove.


----------



## hope4family

Is being codependent in a small form bad? I mean we treat it like its a curse word. But aren't we supposed to depend on each other to an extent? Lean on each other? Confide in each other? 

I get the whole you shouldn't "need" someone in order to survive. But what of those people who do? A side thought, should you leave someone when they no longer "make you happy" in terms of say they develop a life altering issue? Is staying with them by definition go co-dependence? 

I'm having a hard time discerning the macho-ism on this board from the reality.


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> Is being codependent in a small form bad? I mean we treat it like its a curse word. But aren't we supposed to depend on each other to an extent? Lean on each other? Confide in each other?
> 
> I get the whole you shouldn't "need" someone in order to survive. But what of those people who do? A side thought, should you leave someone when they no longer "make you happy" in terms of say they develop a life altering issue? Is staying with them by definition go co-dependence?
> 
> I'm having a hard time discerning the macho-ism on this board from the reality.


Nothing like a derogatory label to prove an open mind.


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> Nothing like a derogatory label to prove an open mind.


Can you elaborate? Which part is the derogatory label? How are we proving an open mind?


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> Can you elaborate? Which part is the derogatory label? How are we proving an open mind?


You meant "macho-ism" as a compliment to those present?


----------



## Pbartender

hope4family said:


> Can you elaborate? Which part is the derogatory label?


I think he's referring to "macho-ism".

Here's thing thing, though...

Being codependent is a very different thing being dependent.

Codependency is all about putting someone else's needs so far ahead of your own, that you neglect yourself to the point of hurting yourself mentally, emotionally, sometimes even physically.

In addition, it allows that other person to manipulate you through emotional abuse into staying in that relationship, and you enable them to do it by making excuses for them and justifying their actions.

Codependence, even a little bit, is bad, bad, bad. It's dependence taken to an unhealthy extreme.

It's the difference between the emotional equivalent of a symbiotic relationship, and an emotional parasite. Symbiosis means both depend on the other, both give something to the other, and the relationship is mutually beneficial. Parasites only consume and always to the detriment of the host.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> Context
> As you look back you see blueprints emerge. This understanding brings you confidence. Faced with new people it will take you time to orient yourself, *but you must give yourself time. You must discipline yourself to ask the questions and allow the blueprints to emerge...or you will have less confidence in your decisions.*


I must do this with my dates/mate, or risk putting them on a pedestal and being less decisive - therefore less attractive.



zillard said:


> Achiever
> Every day starts at zero. By the end of the day you must achieve something tangible in order to feel good about yourself. *No matter how much you may feel you deserve a day of rest, if the day passes without some form of achievement, no matter how small, you will be dissatisfied.*


If there's nothing left to fix, I will try to fix my mate. Not healthy. Selfish, arrogant, and ultimately demeaning. My mate should not be a project.



zillard said:


> Analytical
> Your analytical theme challenges other people: Prove it. You do not necessarily want to destroy other people's ideas, but you do insist that their theories be sound. I*t is hoped that your analysis is never delivered too harshly. Otherwise, other may avoid you when the wishful thinking is their own*


If this is not kept in check, I will be more focused on my mate's problems and become parental. A caregiver who is not receptive. Not a partner. 



zillard said:


> Relator
> Once the initial connection is made, you deliberately encourage a deepening of the relationship. You want to understand their feelings, goals, fears, dreams and you want them to understand yours. *You know this closeness comes with a risk - you might be taken advantage of - but you are willing to accept the risk.* For you a relationship only has value if it is genuine.


Relating is great. Understanding is good. Intimacy is excellent. But if I choose a mate that cannot or will not reciprocate, I will become a needy validation seeker. 



zillard said:


> Harmony
> You look for areas of agreement.* There is little to be gained from conflict and friction.* You try to find common ground. You try to steer away from confrontation and toward harmony. In your view we are all in the same boat. It is a good boat. There is no need to rock it just to show that you can.


Looking for harmony is excellent and admirable. Walking on eggshells in order to avoid confrontation with a mate is terrible. There is fine line between the two that must be respected. 



hope4family said:


> Is being codependent in a small form bad? I mean we treat it like its a curse word. But aren't we supposed to depend on each other to an extent? Lean on each other? Confide in each other?
> 
> I get the whole you shouldn't "need" someone in order to survive. But what of those people who do? A side thought, should you leave someone when they no longer "make you happy" in terms of say they develop a life altering issue? Is staying with them by definition go co-dependence?
> 
> I'm having a hard time discerning the macho-ism on this board from the reality.


Does that help? Not macho-ism. Identifying parts that are good for some things, but if not kept in check through personal awareness can be negative. Disastrous even.


----------



## hope4family

Ok the macho-ism is good. I'm all for it, it's just to a large extent I am wondering if at times we go overboard with are new found macho-ism. 

We are not going overboard currently, but some of our strength of independence is misguided from the fact that we in fact are hurt over something ultimately unimportant if you look at the big picture. 

The big picture is that yeah, were cheated on, yeah our wives are selfish and crazy. But if they inhibited all the similar problems, didn't cheat, but developed illness and suddenly we were no longer happy. Would we encourage divorce because we weren't happy? Or would we look inwards for our own joy and happiness and stick by our vows. 

Alot of our macho-ism mentality is in regards to our personal pain and is warranted. But if I met someone tomorrow. Let's just say that being with her makes me a happier man. Does that make me by definition co-dependent? If she develops an illness and we come on hard times as a couple am I co-dependent if I chose to stay? Or merely doing the right thing? 

What if her illness makes her a miserable person. Should I stay even if she no longer makes me happy? Or should I be resolute, find my own form of happiness within the marriage and just deal with her toxic behavior as best as I can? 

It's easy and hard to throw out what if's because life often throws us a scenario somewhere in the middle. That's I guess what I am looking for. Finding a healthy relationship.


----------



## hope4family

Pbartender said:


> I think he's referring to "macho-ism".
> 
> Here's thing thing, though...
> 
> Being codependent is a very different thing being dependent.
> 
> Codependency is all about putting someone else's needs so far ahead of your own, that you neglect yourself to the point of hurting yourself mentally, emotionally, sometimes even physically.
> 
> In addition, it allows that other person to manipulate you through emotional abuse into staying in that relationship, and you enable them to do it by making excuses for them and justifying their actions.
> 
> Codependence, even a little bit, is bad, bad, bad. It's dependence taken to an unhealthy extreme.
> 
> It's the difference between the emotional equivalent of a symbiotic relationship, and an emotional parasite. Symbiosis means both depend on the other, both give something to the other, and the relationship is mutually beneficial. Parasites only consume and always to the detriment of the host.
> 
> 
> Pb.


This is what I was looking for. I wasn't trying to be aggressive. This is a psyche term that I was merely unfamiliar with. Thanks.


----------



## hope4family

I got ya Z. It makes better sense now. I wonder if I can take a test like this online somewhere. 

Currently I am labeled as a Facilitator/Decision maker. HAHA.


----------



## Conrad

Keep in mind, playful friction often turns women on.


----------



## zillard

I've also found that single moms really dig a good dad with a wagon and Paul Frank car seat.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I've also found that single moms really dig a good dad with a wagon and Paul Frank car seat.


But, they want an edge.

It's attractive to them.


----------



## zillard

That's where the tattoos come in. Ha. 

But I know what you're saying. Confident. Decisive. Not afraid to disagree and call them on any BS.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> That's where the tattoos come in. Ha.
> 
> But I know what you're saying. Confident. Decisive. Not afraid to disagree and call them on any BS.


If you do not call them on their b.s., they subconsciously start thinking of you as weak.

Whose B.S. will he call?

How does that make me safe and secure?


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> If you do not call them on their b.s., they subconsciously start thinking of you as weak.


Because you ARE being weak if you don't.


----------



## spun

Conrad said:


> If you do not call them on their b.s., they subconsciously start thinking of you as weak.
> 
> Whose B.S. will he call?
> 
> How does that make me safe and secure?


Calling on bs is a must.

The key is how you respond when they push back.

Needing or pressing them to see it from your point of view is where all the trouble starts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

Conrad, take me to school.

I never had a problem calling my wife on her BS. NOW I know I did it the wrong way - my form was through reasoning and explaining (we know how that turned out) - but that was my way of expressing myself to her.

In my next relationship; do I just maintain this new approach? If so, don't I short myself from being able to express myself fully?


----------



## zillard

De Mello:

"I have no right to make any demands on you". In saying that, you will drop your expectation. "I have no right to make any demands on you. Oh, I'll protect myself from the consequences of your actions or your moods or whatever, but you can go right ahead and be what you choose to be. I have no right to make any demands on you"

Hence Conrad's, "I'm not ok with that".

And they'll either figure it out and respect you... or not.


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> Conrad, take me to school.
> 
> I never had a problem calling my wife on her BS. NOW I know I did it the wrong way - my form was through reasoning and explaining (we know how that turned out) - but that was my way of expressing myself to her.
> 
> In my next relationship; do I just maintain this new approach? If so, don't I short myself from being able to express myself fully?


"Express yourself fully" here.

To her, communication must be emotional to be effective.

That means, "I'm not ok with that"

Short - sweet - and inarguable.

She simply cannot argue that you ARE ok with something that you are not ok with.

They're your feelings.

It's how you get heard.


----------



## ReGroup

Future Mrs. ReGroup: Why are you not ok with this?


----------



## Chuck71

Conrad
Good to know you relate to the five faces....most people think I am crazy in 'da head for saying that. But I always stick to my thoughts. I was berated in undergrad for being the only 'idiot' who did not think Ottis Toole murdered Adam Walsh's son. Poetic justice came years later when....it was discovered he did not.

Stick to your guns with ideas. You can not touch an idea nor kill it.

Z-Single dad taking care of his daughter.....major major chick magnet. Even better than the cute lil puppy at the park.

Buy a puppy and take D to park......you will have more phone numbers than a used car salesman at tax time


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> Future Mrs. ReGroup: Why are you not ok with this?


I feel ____ when ____ because _____.


----------



## ReGroup

Seems like I have a lot of deprogamming to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> Seems like I have a lot of deprogamming to do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Quit talking to them like they're men.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Z-Single dad taking care of his daughter.....major major chick magnet. Even better than the cute lil puppy at the park.
> 
> Buy a puppy and take D to park......you will have more phone numbers than a used car salesman at tax time


Chuck, I actually took D to the park yesterday to fly a kite. As usual here, 10-15 kids running around and not a parent in sight. I get that we live in a nice little subdivision, but 4 and 5 year olds running around with no supervision is strange to me. 

For a moment I wondered if I'm overprotective and squashed that thought. I'm involved.


----------



## turnera

ReGroup said:


> Conrad, take me to school.
> 
> I never had a problem calling my wife on her BS. NOW I know I did it the wrong way - my form was through reasoning and explaining (we know how that turned out) - but that was my way of expressing myself to her.
> 
> In my next relationship; do I just maintain this new approach? If so, don't I short myself from being able to express myself fully?


 I prefer to use logic; you can't deny it.

"You lied to me. Do you think it's appropriate to lie to get what you want?"
Other person: erm, uh, I mean...
"So you DO lie to get what you want? Well, I don't accept that in my life. Do we need to talk about breaking up?"


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> I prefer to use logic; you can't deny it.
> 
> "You lied to me. Do you think it's appropriate to lie to get what you want?"
> Other person: erm, uh, I mean...
> "So you DO lie to get what you want? Well, I don't accept that in my life. Do we need to talk about breaking up?"


I think the last two sentences are the most powerful there. 

They absolutely will try to deny logic - you just aren't letting them get away with it by being relentless with your boundaries.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I think the last two sentences are the most powerful there.
> 
> They absolutely will try to deny logic - you just aren't letting them get away with it by being relentless with your boundaries.


Anytime you use the word "you", it's dynamite.

Stay away from it.

It provokes vigorous sustained blameshifting and infantile defensiveness.

"I'm not ok with that"

Has nothing to do with them.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> I think the last two sentences are the most powerful there.
> 
> They absolutely will try to deny logic - you just aren't letting them get away with it by being relentless with your boundaries.


Mixing and matching the logic in with the "feelings" is probably the best bet...

"I'm not okay with that, because I can't trust someone who lies to get their way and I won't maintain a relationship with someone who does."

Express your feelings. Explain why you feel that way. Focus on the behavior, not the person.

It let's them know what your boundaries are, why you have the boundary, it gives them the CHOICE and the PERMISSION to change the behavior, and it warns them that you will not tolerate crossing that boundary and of the penalty of crossing it.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Express your feelings. Explain why you feel that way. Focus on the behavior, not the person.


Never explain why.

It opens the door to Armageddon.

Spend time on what - not why.


----------



## Conrad

Conrad said:


> Never explain why.
> 
> It opens the door to Armageddon.
> 
> Spend time on what - not why.


I'm sure this sounds odd.

But, think about it.

When you even begin to explain "why" (and it has something to do with them), alarm bells start going off in their head. Those with PTSD will immediately start blameshifting out of fear.

At "best" explaining "why" makes you look like you are seeking the Victim Chair in the triangle.

No way will that work.

Not today.

Not ever.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Never explain why.
> 
> It opens the door to Armageddon.
> 
> Spend time on what - not why.


You are saying, in other words, to adopt a no tolerance "we do not negotiate with terrorists" sort of stance.

Therefore, if I just removed the "because" from my previous example, like so...

"I'm not okay with that. I can't trust someone who lies to get their way and I won't maintain a relationship with someone who does."

...that's better by turning the "why" into a "what"?


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> When you even begin to explain "why" (and it has something to do with them), alarm bells start going off in their head. Those with PTSD will immediately start blameshifting out of fear.
> 
> At "best" explaining "why" makes you look like you are seeking the Victim Chair in the triangle.


I can grok that.



Pbartender said:


> "I'm not okay with that. I can't trust someone who lies to get their way and I won't maintain a relationship with someone who does."


So, perhaps an even better example might be...

"I'm not okay with someone who lies to get their way and I won't maintain a relationship with someone who does."


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> "I'm not okay with someone who lies to get their way and I won't maintain a relationship with someone who does."


The only opening there is to offer some b.s. excuses about why what happened was "not" a lie.......

And, good little enablers cave in.


----------



## zillard

But I didn't want to hurt you. See, I just didn't tell you everything because I love you. I was protecting you. Now come back to the triangle and be a victim so I can start persecuting you to make myself feel better about it. And make you feel bad for questioning me so you won't do it again.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> But I didn't want to hurt you. See, I just didn't tell you everything because I love you. I was protecting you. Now come back to the triangle and be a victim so I can start persecuting you to make myself feel better about it. And make you feel bad for questioning me so you won't do it again.


And once you stop questioning, you're submissive and boring.

Enter posOM


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> The only opening there is to offer some b.s. excuses about why what happened was "not" a lie.......


Okay, then... But that sort of thing could happen with any particular action you define as a boundary. I just happened to be using lying.

So, what's the point? If you can't define a behavior that you're not okay with, and you can't explain why you're not okay with it, and you can't directly link that behavior to the offender, then what's left?

All you've got is, "I'm not okay," and that puts us right back to passive-aggressively walking on eggshells... The problem is ignored, the boundaries are left undefined, and the consequences are unenforced. The only thing the other person knows is that you are unhappy, without knowing what is causing it or why you feel that way.

In some respects, saying "I'm not okay" and nothing else is just as bad as the "I don't know" that Z was trying to originally deal with in this thread.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> But I didn't want to hurt you. See, I just didn't tell you everything because I love you. I was protecting you. Now come back to the triangle and be a victim so I can start persecuting you to make myself feel better about it. And make you feel bad for questioning me so you won't do it again.


No. I am not okay with someone who will not take responsibility for their own mistakes, and I will no longer accept blame for mistakes that were not mine. Goodbye.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pb,

I'm not arguing.

What I'm saying is that "I'm not ok with" is a powerful statement about you.

Pathetic legalistic excuses about why the behavior "wasn't what you thought it was" aren't even worth arguing over.

The message gets delivered - and received.

Hope that helps.


----------



## ReGroup

The PosOM - time for him to take his lumps. 

I guess you guys are right - we truly are the lucky ones.


----------



## zillard

"I'm not okay with someone who lies to get their way and I won't maintain a relationship with someone who does."

...is fine, just don't cave in.


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> The PosOM - time for him to take his lumps.
> 
> I guess you guys are right - we truly are the lucky ones.


You would never think that at first, would you?

You've actually been set free.

What a great thing that is!

AND... you will enter the rest of your life fully armed to live it to the fullest - with or without "her".


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Pb,
> 
> I'm not arguing.
> 
> What I'm saying is that "I'm not ok with" is a powerful statement about you.
> 
> Pathetic legalistic excuses about why the behavior "wasn't what you thought it was" aren't even worth arguing over.
> 
> The message gets delivered - and received.
> 
> Hope that helps.


I gotcha...

On one hand, I see it as a simple and straightforward way to inform the other of A) this is my boundary, B) this is why it's a boundary, and C) this is what will happen if you cross it. But you're also right... that other person may try to argue and shift blame and guilt trip and finagle their way around it.

And so on the other hand, and perhaps more importantly, I also see it as a way to *remind ourselves* of what our boundaries are, why we put them in place, and what we intend to do if they are violated. That reminder is a mantra that will strengthen our resolve and help keep us from falling back into that triangle. It will prevent us from being submissive and boring, and allow us to stop enabling.


Pb.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> "I'm not okay with someone who lies to get their way and I won't maintain a relationship with someone who does."
> 
> ...is fine, just don't cave in.


Exactly... You can say "I'm not okay with that" all you want. But if you can't find a way to kick the codependency, it'll never do you any good.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> I gotcha...
> 
> On one hand, I see it as a simple and straightforward way to inform the other of A) this is my boundary, B) this is why it's a boundary, and C) this is what will happen if you cross it. But you're also right... that other person may try to argue and shift blame and guilt trip and finagle their way around it.
> 
> And so on the other hand, and perhaps more importantly, I also see it as a way to *remind ourselves* of what our boundaries are, why we put them in place, and what we intend to do if they are crossed. That reminder is a mantra that will strengthen our resolve and help keep us from falling back into that triangle. It will prevent us from being submissive and boring, and allow us to stop enabling.
> 
> 
> Pb.


Be prepared for someone to INSIST that you're an a-hole and "controlling" or whatever.

The cool, dispassionate response is, "These are MY boundaries. You're free to do whatever you like. As am I."


----------



## zillard

Right! 

Remember my X:

"You're not being assertive, you're being a d!ck!"

I got defensive then. Now it's kinda funny.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Be prepared for someone to INSIST that you're an a-hole and "controlling" or whatever.
> 
> The cool, dispassionate response is, "These are MY boundaries. You're free to do whatever you like. As am I."


Absolutely.

Lately, my favorite response in those situations has been something like, "Whatever... That's cool."



zillard said:


> Right!
> 
> Remember my X:
> 
> "You're not being assertive, you're being a d!ck!"
> 
> I got defensive then. Now it's kinda funny.


Heh... yeah. And look where being nice guys got us.


Pb.


----------



## Chuck71

I still do not know how to clip quotes lol....yeah how tech savvy am I????

Conrad said
You would never think that at first, would you?

You've actually been set free.


Those words were exactly the same words my mother told me when I informed her of our divorce.

It's funny how moms just sit back and watch things and......at just the right time.....turn into Plato. Not to mention those awesome peanut butter and jelly sammys!


----------



## staystrong

Chuck, just click the Quote button in the bottom right corner of any post you want to quote.


----------



## zillard

zupdate.

D7s IC session once again turned into MC (or should I call it DC - divorce counseling). 

X and I went in for the quick update. Apparently D7 was getting pretty stubborn and lippy with X over the 4 day visit last weekend. Was probably part of the reason X wanted to cut it short a day. D7 has been getting better with me. Her latest feelings pie chart had no angry and happy slice was larger. 

C asked if we had talked further about the out-of-state move. X told her she had asked me to stay in state and if I would she'd look for a new job/shift. C asked how I responded and I told her about my boundaries and request for X to prove it and come up with a plan to present to me. 

C asked how X responded. She said, "I haven't". So C asked if we'd have a full session to discuss as X clearly has trouble communicating with me. 

We agreed. D7 had her new Nintendo DS in the waiting room along with markers and paper. 

C brought to surface that X is a bottler and has two different worlds. The one swirling inside of her and the one she shows others. Validated my concerns and trust issues and agreed that X should prove her convictions if she wants me to consider staying local.

After X said she's been reaching out to employers and old colleagues and HR to try to change employment C congratulated her on the big step. It then quickly turned into both of them heavily pressuring me to consider staying (or at least that's how it felt). 

C asked about status of the divorce and custody plan. I told her X gave me rights to move and the papers have been filed. X seemed a little shocked. Perhaps she still thought I wouldn't do it. I said I have the legal right to move and I will not promise to stay.

C then said, "and she has the legal right to overturn that." To which X replied, "I've been thinking about it". 

Z - The best case scenario is for both parents to be in the same location as D7. But that does not equal Arizona. Me moving with her at this point is not 100% me taking her away from her mom. X always has the option to move. I absolutely prefer to move, but a part of me wants to stay here. If I did so it would be to please X and make life easier for her. And that is not healthy. 

C commented that my IC has been doing an excellent job with my codependency and asked for me to sign a release so they could talk. I wanted to tell her to call TAM instead. 

We ended with a decision that it is X's job to reach out to me next wednesday to discuss if next week's session should be joint w/o D7 (her job as she has been avoiding any decision making).


----------



## zillard

1/2 hour after the session X texted me informing me she removed me from her health insurance (I thought she already had). 

How I see this - "I'm angry that you went through with the D without begging me to stay... so there!" 

She asked if the official D date was 2/14, as that is what she told HR in order to take me off. 

Z - Official date TBD. Judge still needs to approve.

I then went to my IC. He did have a conversation with daughter's IC before I arrived. She told him how impressed she was with my progress and informed him that D7 is regressing based on falling scores on the GAP? Global Awareness Scale? Anyone familiar?

My IC is in family court a lot and told me not to stress too much about X overturning anything. Said its always up to the judge but she has been setting a precedent against herself for a year now, which has gotten worse through the D.

We talked at length about my dilemma and he thinks in my situation that I am being more than fair to X and heavily weighing D7's needs - which include me being a healthy man and not just a present father.


----------



## ReGroup

I'm concerned Z.


----------



## ReGroup

Is it the counselor's place to even suggest something like that?


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> I'm concerned Z.


I am too. I think the child psychologist is more hopeful and trusting of X's recent alleged improvements than I am. Which is understandable. 

But I am getting uneasy with her. 

Is that my recently-betrayed-by-a-woman little boy surfacing?


----------



## zillard

Hmm. 

My trust issues may have clouded me a bit. I received praise from a woman, in front of X. That felt good. It was immediately followed by hard questions re: what is really best for D7. 

I did start with the "I have a legal right" line. To feel strong again and more sure of my stance? 

C may have been trying to empower X, due to her codependency issues. To keep her momentum going. C did say she understood I took a beating. Perhaps she wanted to speak to my IC to inform him of that more than anything, to make sure I don't go back into react mode.

X did come out and say that she already regrets signing the papers. As many people here predicted she would.


----------



## hope4family

Thats rough on you, but its still a very long journey from here. Do not bite the dust an overreact at this stage. It's a long battle, someone has spoken into her ear on what to do. 

So she had second thoughts. Either way big deal. This is a journey, and overturning the moving part will be another challenge that she will have to rise up and meet.


----------



## zillard

Funny how she has no problem getting in touch with HR within 1/2 an hour when she is properly motivated.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Funny how she has no problem getting in touch with HR within 1/2 an hour when she is properly motivated.


She is punishing you. Smacking your hand. You are a meanie. She is being "mean back". 

Oddly enough, isn't that illegal until the divorce is finalized?


----------



## Stella Moon

hope4family said:


> She is punishing you. Smacking your hand. You are a meanie. She is being "mean back".
> 
> Oddly enough, isn't that illegal until the divorce is finalized?


uh yea...that's my understanding...things like that are at a stand still until the divorce is finalized...she's not supposed to dump you...if brought up she will be found in contempt for that...if that's how your area rolls...that indeed is a big no no...


----------



## Stella Moon

you best address that asap...after all it is medical insurance...and if she's supposed to be providing it until the bitter end...I suggest she do exactly that...provide it.


----------



## zillard

It is illegal here. But I am covered on her insurance through the next pay period. Coverage for me through my employer will be in effect by then. I was prepared for this. D7 is still covered under X by decree. 

I am not fighting about it. I will just hold this in my back pocket in case she tries anything. One more thing to add to the pile. 

She'd be silly to fight me in court as her mental health history and all the ammo I have would be brought into the light - which could possibly effect her career.


----------



## Stella Moon

what's her career? if I can ask?


----------



## zillard

Civilian healthcare job that requires a federal background check by the DoD.


----------



## Stella Moon

dod?


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> It is illegal here. But I am covered on her insurance through the next pay period. Coverage for me through my employer will be in effect by then. I was prepared for this. D7 is still covered under X by decree.
> 
> I am not fighting about it. I will just hold this in my back pocket in case she tries anything. One more thing to add to the pile.
> 
> She'd be silly to fight me in court as her mental health history and all the ammo I have would be brought into the light - which could possibly effect her career.


Z...I understand sometimes you need to build a case against or for something. But illegal...is I-L-L-E-G-A-L. 

Not sure about that man.


----------



## zillard

Stella Moon said:


> dod?


Department of Defense


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Z...I understand sometimes you need to build a case against or for something. But illegal...is I-L-L-E-G-A-L.
> 
> Not sure about that man.


Yeah, but do what? To what end? 

My coverage will still be starting anyway as I can't trust her to reinstate even if she says she will. Decree is with the judge now and I could get papers back any day. With her mental state, pushing anything legally will likely see her go into survival mode and escalate - probably try to overturn my move. While I think I stand a good chance if that happens, I still would prefer not to involve the courts without a pressing need. 

I don't need her insurance coverage.

If I did, it would be a different story.


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> I am too. I think the child psychologist is more hopeful and trusting of X's recent alleged improvements than I am. Which is understandable.
> 
> But I am getting uneasy with her.
> 
> Is that my recently-betrayed-by-a-woman little boy surfacing?


 I think that she is verging on being so unprofessional that she may need to be censured. IIWY, I would ask to have 5 minutes alone with her before next week's session, and share your concerns. 

Sure, it would be good for D to have both parents in the same city. IF - big IF - both parents are in a healthy place and showing a desire for improvement. If you stay because you need to keep your EX-wife happy, then you will start to become unhappy, unfulfilled, resentful. And THAT, your D will pick up on.

I'm not saying moving is the only way for you to be happy. Just make sure if you stay it's for the right reasons.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Sure, it would be good for D to have both parents in the same city. IF - big IF - both parents are in a healthy place and showing a desire for improvement. If you stay because you need to keep your EX-wife happy, then you will start to become unhappy, unfulfilled, resentful. And THAT, your D will pick up on.


This is exactly what my IC and I discussed.



turnera said:


> I'm not saying moving is the only way for you to be happy. Just make sure if you stay it's for the right reasons.


I am confident that I can have a happy life here - if my reason for staying is D7's best interest. Without her mother stepping up to the plate and proving herself, I don't think it would be.


----------



## Chuck71

Z-My two cents would be to remain silent as possible until next IC. "Appear" timid....flip the table on your IC. Want shock value....you will see it. The tag team run on you was not professional. Yes X is attempting to meet your desires so you will remain in-state but as Def Leppard sang "Action not Words".

Maybe it is just me but I was raised to believe words are cheap, until you back them up. Reason why I use accountability in a lot of posts. X simply attempts to change shifts....she gets a parade. You have went through he!! and shielded your baby girl from the carnage best you could. So I want to know.....where is your parade?

Flip tables on IC.....IC issues disappears at light speed.


----------



## HappyKaty

I agree with Chuck. She's a scared little girl, trying to call your bluff, and she even recruited a 'pal' to help. Stay the course, sweetie. She's not the hardass she wants to be. I can see that.


----------



## Chuck71

Z-If you quote me I will hunt you down LOL
There are women in this world that still value
being a father and a H
I don't see you on market for long
women sense a great father
that is above $ or anything else
I think Happy or Angie will back me up there


----------



## Chuck71

Windy City trip hmmmm LOL

PB Godspeed 2 U


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> I agree with Chuck. She's a scared little girl, trying to call your bluff, and she even recruited a 'pal' to help. Stay the course, sweetie. She's not the hardass she wants to be. I can see that.


This reminds me of when I was preparing to D - at her request. I refused her request to let her keep the new car when she moved out... while I maintain payments. 

She flew off the handle and said if she wanted to she could challenge the divorce and go after me for spousal support. 

I sure did train her well to be an entitled little sh!t with me, didn't I. 

From above I see: 
She won't get up early to spend more time with D7.
She wasn't motivated enough to file herself.
She didn't get advice from her own attorney. 
She wasn't motivated enough to make it to the zoo on time for D7s bday.
She didn't care enough to find presents and buy cupcakes.
She frequently tries to get out of extra days with D7. 
She wasn't concerned enough to find a child psychologist. 

What makes me think she'd be motivated enough to challenge my move in court? It would take time, money, effort and conviction. 

Four things she doesn't currently have.


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> Windy City trip hmmmm LOL


Hey, I didn't quote you! Wait a minute... Oh, ****... Did I just?




Pb.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> I don't see you on market for long


bring it on! 

you huntin' me down. not another ball and chain. 

I want to play around a bit. No hurry to lock down another missus.


----------



## loveispatient

zillard said:


> This reminds me of when I was preparing to D - at her request. I refused her request to let her keep the new car when she moved out... while I maintain payments.
> 
> She flew off the handle and said if she wanted to she could challenge the divorce and go after me for spousal support.
> 
> I sure did train her well to be an entitled little sh!t with me, didn't I.
> 
> From above I see:
> She won't get up early to spend more time with D7.
> She wasn't motivated enough to file herself.
> She didn't get advice from her own attorney.
> She wasn't motivated enough to make it to the zoo on time for D7s bday.
> She didn't care enough to find presents and buy cupcakes.
> She frequently tries to get out of extra days with D7.
> She wasn't concerned enough to find a child psychologist.
> 
> What makes me think she'd be motivated enough to challenge my move in court? It would take time, money, effort and conviction.
> 
> Four things she doesn't currently have.


It is really like, as others said, that she didn't think this would go as far as it has. Granted, it's certainly not your fault that it has. It takes two for a marriage to break down and she's has a good part in it. I think she knows that, but probably doesn't want to admit to it. 

You're doing really well and I keep up with the thread often so that I know how to deal with "H." We're at least talking and trying through MC, but there's still a good deal of back and forth that we have to address. So it's helpful to see how you're dealing with your X while safeguarding your heart and sanity. 

I would guess that she's ONLY NOW realizing that this moving forward regardless of what she says (to you) and does (for you). 

As for C and X ganging up on you on the whole move thing; it's a little surprising I guess. Thought C should be neutral about such things and consider both sides? Especially if move is going to be good for D7 even if separated from X. I do agree that if you move, X can take initiative to be closer to her. I know I would.

Separately, if you stay in the area, then X should certainly work on adjusting schedule. 

I know that I'm guilty of procrastinating sometimes while waiting for an outcome (i.e. job hunting, getting resume ready). So I guess she might be doing the same, though that's detrimental to her personal well-being and future relationship with D7. Also don't think she'll challenge you in court for the reasons you mentioned above.


----------



## zillard

loveispatient said:


> It is really like, as others said, that she didn't think this would go as far as it has. Granted, it's certainly not your fault that it has. It takes two for a marriage to break down and she's has a good part in it. I think she knows that, but probably doesn't want to admit to it.
> 
> You're doing really well and I keep up with the thread often so that I know how to deal with "H." We're at least talking and trying through MC, but there's still a good deal of back and forth that we have to address. So it's helpful to see how you're dealing with your X while safeguarding your heart and sanity.
> 
> I would guess that she's ONLY NOW realizing that this moving forward regardless of what she says (to you) and does (for you).
> 
> As for C and X ganging up on you on the whole move thing; it's a little surprising I guess. Thought C should be neutral about such things and consider both sides? Especially if move is going to be good for D7 even if separated from X. I do agree that if you move, X can take initiative to be closer to her. I know I would.
> 
> Separately, if you stay in the area, then X should certainly work on adjusting schedule.
> 
> I know that I'm guilty of procrastinating sometimes while waiting for an outcome (i.e. job hunting, getting resume ready). So I guess she might be doing the same, though that's detrimental to her personal well-being and future relationship with D7. Also don't think she'll challenge you in court for the reasons you mentioned above.


Glad that this can be some help to you, I really am. It definitely is to me. 

As I wrote before, I think my fear and mistrust blew the "ganging up on me" out of proportion. The IC did say repeatedly that this is a tricky situation and she has no idea what the right answer is... if there even is one. I just got instantly defensive when they started talking legal rights... even though I initiated that. 

I'm not excusing the IC - her statement was out of line I believe. I don't think she should be talking about any legal rights without being asked - X didn't ask and I didn't ask, I made a statement. 

And yes - X should take initiative to be around D7 more. And she's given me more proof that it's not a priority. At the IC appt D told X she was invited to a Bday party in my neighborhood on Saturday (her day with D). She asked her mom if she would drive to us this time and take her to the party before going to mom's house. 

X asked me what time is the party. I told her early afternoon but I would check specifics. She said depending on the time it may be better if I take D to party and drop her off at moms later than usual instead. 

More of the same. Not willing to wake up early for D.

I got home and texted X the time of the party - 1pm - and the RSVP number. 

No response.


----------



## loveispatient

zillard said:


> And yes - X should take initiative to be around D7 more. And she's given me more proof that it's not a priority. At the IC appt D told X she was invited to a Bday party in my neighborhood on Saturday (her day with D). She asked her mom if she would drive to us this time and take her to the party before going to mom's house.
> 
> X asked me what time is the party. I told her early afternoon but I would check specifics. She said depending on the time it may be better if I take D to party and drop her off at moms later than usual instead.
> 
> More of the same. Not willing to wake up early for D.
> 
> I got home and texted X the time of the party - 1pm - and the RSVP number.
> 
> No response.


"H" and I tried to have kids for so long with almost every possible infertility treatment available to man that we really can't understand why people would have kids but not take the time to be with them etc. But we're on the outside looking in. So we can't really judge! 

Separation and divorce is certainly more complicated when kids are involved. I don't envy all of you who have to negotiate custody and deal with effects of being away from your children etc.


----------



## zillard

loveispatient said:


> "H" and I tried to have kids for so long with almost every possible infertility treatment available to man that we really can't understand why people would have kids but not take the time to be with them etc. But we're on the outside looking in. So we can't really judge!


Because they can be a real pain in the arse! Especially if you are a selfish individual.

X tells me she's jealous of the "effortless" connection I have with D7. 

Ha! I'm just that good, I guess, to make hard work look easy. Kids aren't easy. You have to give up so much of your wants in order to attend to their needs. But they are worth every second of it... even if it doesn't feel like it at the time. 

You can't connect with your kids by throwing them some toys and then doing your thing. You've got to get down on the floor on your knees and make stupid faces. You've got to dance around like an idiot pretending you are a ballerina, even if you are so tired you'd rather just couch it. 

But that's the good stuff!


----------



## zillard

Looks like D7 is going to the bday party tomorrow after all. Good.

Yesterday I sent the time and RSVP info. Today:

X - Thanks. Did you take D7 to get a gift?

Z - No gift. Was unsure of the plan.

X - Just RSVPd

Z - K. Please let me know the plan for tomorrow. 

X - I'll pick up D7 at the house and take her to the party. We can gather her things after and I'll bring her here. 

X - Is that ok?

Z - That's fine. Gift?

Crickets

*10 minutes later*

X - Can you take D7 to pick one out, please?

Z - Yes. Thank you for asking.


----------



## soca70

Z - I've been following your thread and I know you said initially your X was a very involved parent early on. I'm not sure why she's changed so much even to the point of allowing you to move away with your D. 

Is there a psycholgical issue? It doesn't sound like she's spending time with friends or bar-hopping, etc.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Because they can be a real pain in the arse! Especially if you are a selfish individual.
> 
> X tells me she's jealous of the "effortless" connection I have with D7.
> 
> Ha! I'm just that good, I guess, to make hard work look easy. Kids aren't easy. You have to give up so much of your wants in order to attend to their needs. But they are worth every second of it... even if it doesn't feel like it at the time.
> 
> You can't connect with your kids by throwing them some toys and then doing your thing. You've got to get down on the floor on your knees and make stupid faces. You've got to dance around like an idiot pretending you are a ballerina, even if you are so tired you'd rather just couch it.
> 
> But that's the good stuff!


Oh, man...

My son has high-functioning autism. He and I have a very strong connection, but it hasn't always been like that... There's been times when our relationship been truly bad, and we hurt each other hard. It's taken years of hard work from both of us to get here. Even now, there's days that are a little rough.

But I'd never give him up. More than anything, I want to see him grow up to be an independent, responsible and happy adult, and I'd do anything to help him get there.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

soca70 said:


> Z - I've been following your thread and I know you said initially your X was a very involved parent early on. I'm not sure why she's changed so much even to the point of allowing you to move away with your D.
> 
> Is there a psycholgical issue? It doesn't sound like she's spending time with friends or bar-hopping, etc.


Super SAHM for 6 years. But a little too super. The child was her identity. Went back to work - swing shift w/commute so then only 1/2hr a day w/daughter during the week. Not much more with me. Enter identity crisis as she doesn't feel like mom anymore. 

Starts going out with younger, single coworkers after work to find herself and fill the void. Work ends at 12:30-1:30am so nothing to do but barhop and house parties after. 

Naturally led to affair. Enter fog and identity crisis worsens. No longer good mom. No longer good wife. So who is she? Better run away and hide as fast as she can so she doesn't have to figure it out. Hubby is a rock, so just leave it up to him. Can't face him anyway. Run and wallow.


----------



## soca70

zillard said:


> Super SAHM for 6 years. But a little too super. The child was her identity. Went back to work - swing shift w/commute so then only 1/2hr a day w/daughter during the week. Not much more with me. Enter identity crisis as she doesn't feel like mom anymore.
> 
> Starts going out with younger, single coworkers after work to find herself and fill the void. Work ends at 12:30-1:30am so nothing to do but barhop and house parties after.
> 
> Naturally led to affair. Enter fog and identity crisis worsens. No longer good mom. No longer good wife. So who is she? Better run away and hide as fast as she can so she doesn't have to figure it out. Hubby is a rock, so just leave it up to him. Can't face him anyway. Run and wallow.


What does she do with her time now? Still go out at night? Is she in IC? I see serious issues with D with her as she gets older. I'd resent the he!! out of a parent that "gave up" on me. I hope for your D's sake she pulls it together.


----------



## zillard

soca70 said:


> What does she do with her time now? Still go out at night? Is she in IC? I see serious issues with D with her as she gets older. I'd resent the he!! out of a parent that "gave up" on me. I hope for your D's sake she pulls it together.


I don't know. Her personal life is not my concern anymore. I do know she can't afford to barhop like she was. She's been immovable as far as changing shifts so I've assumed she's still in the fog over her coworker. Last I knew he had pulled away but still works there. If she is willing to change shifts/jobs now perhaps he has stayed away. 

Multiple people have told me all she does on FB is post about her cooking and her life seems sad and empty. She did take great pride in feeding others. If she isn't now it makes sense that should would try and fish for compliments on FB. 

I know she does still drink at home. Near empty bottles of rum at her place, when the night before she's texting me BS through the night. 

It seems to me she hangs with her girlfriend from work occasionally but mostly cooks, stresses, wallows and drinks at night.

She is in IC. 3 or 4 sessions and then scheduled a bunch in a row but those don't start until week after next. 

If she remains stagnant, D7 will have mommy issues whether I move out of state or not.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Super SAHM for 6 years. But a little too super. The child was her identity. Went back to work - swing shift w/commute so then only 1/2hr a day w/daughter during the week. Not much more with me. Enter identity crisis as she doesn't feel like mom anymore.
> 
> Starts going out with younger, single coworkers after work to find herself and fill the void. Work ends at 12:30-1:30am so nothing to do but barhop and house parties after.
> 
> Naturally led to affair. Enter fog and identity crisis worsens. No longer good mom. No longer good wife. So who is she? Better run away and hide as fast as she can so she doesn't have to figure it out. Hubby is a rock, so just leave it up to him. Can't face him anyway. Run and wallow.


Good heavens... that's almost exactly how it happened with my wife, too...

She was working early morning shifts with the stocking crew at a department store. Awake and off to work long before anyone else woke up, and barely made it through dinner before she fell asleep on the couch. Barely saw me or the kids for more than an hour or two in the late afternoon.

Worked with lots of young, single 20-somethings who liked to hit the bars after the store closed after 11pm. Kissed one, sexted another, contemplated getting an apartment in a city 3 hours away and only coming home on her days off so she work at a store there with a particular assistant manager (who was offering her a promotion, to boot) who had to transfer there because the general manager caught him having an affair with one of the cashiers.

That's about the time she gave me the ILYBINILWY spiel, and moved into the spare room. Since then, it's pretty much been more of the same melodramatic crazy-making.

She runs and hides from her problems and ignores them and hopes they go away. They never do.


Pb.


----------



## soca70

zillard said:


> I don't know. Her personal life is not my concern anymore. I do know she can't afford to barhop like she was. She's been immovable as far as changing shifts so I've assumed she's still in the fog over her coworker. Last I knew he had pulled away but still works there. If she is willing to change shifts/jobs now perhaps he has stayed away.
> 
> Multiple people have told me all she does on FB is post about her cooking and her life seems sad and empty. She did take great pride in feeding others. If she isn't now it makes sense that should would try and fish for compliments on FB.
> 
> I know she does still drink at home. Near empty bottles of rum at her place, when the night before she's texting me BS through the night.
> 
> It seems to me she hangs with her girlfriend from work occasionally but mostly cooks, stresses, wallows and drinks at night.
> 
> She is in IC. 3 or 4 sessions and then scheduled a bunch in a row but those don't start until week after next.
> 
> If she remains stagnant, D7 will have mommy issues whether I move out of state or not.


Sounds like some sort of depression. The drinking worries me. That seems excessive. Hopefully, the IC will help her. And I agree with the issues if she remains stagnant.


----------



## zillard

soca70 said:


> Sounds like some sort of depression. The drinking worries me. That seems excessive. Hopefully, the IC will help her. And I agree with the issues if she remains stagnant.


Bipolar + depression + BPD traits + childhood trauma from BPD/NPD mother + affair fog + alcohol = not much hope. 

But she is strong and very stubborn. If she faces it head on I do think she could do it.


----------



## staystrong

At what point with the alcohol do you intervene? For the sake of your child.


----------



## zillard

staystrong said:


> At what point with the alcohol do you intervene? For the sake of your child.


if and when it becomes a danger to the child and I can prove it.


----------



## Pbartender

staystrong said:


> At what point with the alcohol do you intervene? For the sake of your child.


I'd double-check the joint parenting agreement for guidance first. I know that my proposed JPA includes these...



> H. Neither parent shall drink alcohol to excess in the presence of the children. Neither parent will operate a motor vehicle with the children as passengers if that parent is under the influence of alcoholic beverages.
> 
> I. Neither parent will allow or encourage the children to smoke or drink alcoholic beverages.


...but like Z said, her personal life isn't his concern anymore. So long as she's not doing it while D7's there, is it a problem?


Pb.


----------



## GutPunch

zillard said:


> Super SAHM for 6 years. But a little too super. The child was her identity. Went back to work - swing shift w/commute so then only 1/2hr a day w/daughter during the week. Not much more with me. Enter identity crisis as she doesn't feel like mom anymore.
> 
> Starts going out with younger, single coworkers after work to find herself and fill the void. Work ends at 12:30-1:30am so nothing to do but barhop and house parties after.
> 
> Naturally led to affair. Enter fog and identity crisis worsens. No longer good mom. No longer good wife. So who is she? Better run away and hide as fast as she can so she doesn't have to figure it out. Hubby is a rock, so just leave it up to him. Can't face him anyway. Run and wallow.


I know a woman just like that.


----------



## zillard

That pretty much takes a DUI, an extreme event, or the child testifying to enforce though. My papers don't have that.

I have no reason to believe she is drinking to excess when she has D7.


----------



## staystrong

Sorry, I wasn't referring to the child being put at risk; I'm sure you would intervene then. I was referring more to how the relationship between your child and her mother could be affected, or simply how D7 could be affected emotionally. I know you can't stop X from doing what's she doing, but do you show concern for her health and welfare?


----------



## zillard

staystrong said:


> I know you can't stop X from doing what's she doing, but do you show concern for her health and welfare?


No. That is what a friend or husband would do.

She fired me from both positions. If she wants to drink herself to sleep at night, that's her business. 

Only when it negatively affects my child, in an obvious, direct, and provable way will doing or saying anything help. 

Without that, bringing it up will only cause an argument as she'll see it as an accusation and rightfully so.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Super SAHM for 6 years. But a little too super. The child was her identity. Went back to work - swing shift w/commute so then only 1/2hr a day w/daughter during the week. Not much more with me. Enter identity crisis as she doesn't feel like mom anymore.
> 
> Starts going out with younger, single coworkers after work to find herself and fill the void. Work ends at 12:30-1:30am so nothing to do but barhop and house parties after.
> 
> Naturally led to affair. Enter fog and identity crisis worsens. No longer good mom. No longer good wife. So who is she? Better run away and hide as fast as she can so she doesn't have to figure it out. Hubby is a rock, so just leave it up to him. Can't face him anyway. Run and wallow.


This story has themes that are so common. So brutal. Even though I cannot prove an affair. The themes are so similar. 

The change happened quickly. It started with talking to a guy. Next thing I know, all our future plans started changing. We often as men romanticize our existence. 

That being said, the plans we had set in stone. Another child for our son in the near future, paying off all our debt in a little over a year, adding a car, and moving to the beach or wherever we wanted. All those plans, gone in less then 1.5 months. 

The script, so familiar. It turns my stomach every time.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> That being said, the plans we had set in stone. Another child for our son in the near future, paying off all our debt in a little over a year, adding a car, and moving to the beach or wherever we wanted. All those plans, gone in less then 1.5 months.
> 
> The script, so familiar. It turns my stomach every time.


Yes. Fall 2012:

Recently bought our first brand new car - VW wagon.
Paid off other car. 
Cut debt by 75%.
Was in touch with a realtor to sell house.
Planned on moving back to my hometown (her idea).
Committed to investing in a new business there with my brother, where X would work.

October 2012: Enter posOM

November 2012: Z is born on TAM


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> But she is strong and very stubborn. If she faces it head on I do think she could do it.


You've got that half right.

Deep down, she suspects she is very weak.

But, she'll be damned if she ever admits that to you.


----------



## whitehawk

Hey Z.
Before I met my wife I use to go through grass is greener with every girl I was ever with , hopeless at sticking with someone.
Your wife reminds me of me back then.

But she sounds confused , sad , mixed up as all hell , l almost feel sorry for her . l don't think it matters if she drinks herself to sleep every night , let her. As long as she's not around your daughter who cares what she does on her own time, sad though. She's working through herself , you , what she wants and what she's throwing away. She's gotta do that now , if she doesn't it'll only come back to bite her again later , until the jobs done and dusted properly . 
Sounds like your not moving for awhile again now , sorry couldn't find the details. I reckon that's a good thing because at the very least , she'll come good when she's worked through this and at least wanna be a mum again if nothing else . You wouldn't wanna deprive your kids of that.

My W doesn't seem too happy either now . l don't think she's thinking get back together but her new life does seem to have gone down a few notches and dropping.
She's more and more tired , more and more at home nights , more and more stressed about money and getting out of the money pit she's in , her moods are lower and lower . I feel bad for her but I got fired too so there's not much I can do.

I've got similar where to move to stuff too . Not interstate but my girls living with her so if l move to where l'd like to I'd be 35mins to 2 hrs away , depending on which spot chose. Or l could move locally but to a better spot more about me but still nice and handy to my girl.
It's such a tough decision isn't it.

I have to finish the house which'll take another 6 mths though so l'm hoping the time will bring around the right opp, meanwhile give my daughter time to adjust .
Fck knows !


----------



## zillard

Yeah WH - where to live relative to your X and kids is an extremely difficult decision that could affect the child(ren) for life. Not an easy call to make. 

As far as X being sad, confused and mixed up - absolutely right. 

When she called to say goodnight to D7 last night, she asked D to put me on the phone when she was done. We talked for 5 or so about D. First time that's happened since she moved out. 

This morning I woke to 3 more emails from her - D7 related. 

Then at 8am a good friend of mine sent me a text. He was my closest friend here in the area and would stay with us for a weekend at least once a month. He grew close to X too over the years but moved back to our hometown last year (we went to HS together). He deleted X from his facebook as soon as I told him about the A.

Last night she sent him a new friend request. Deleted!


----------



## ReGroup

They don't realize that not only do you divorce and alienate your spouse - the friends and family are part of the package; sometimes even the children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Right. I had two other people yesterday tell me they are deleting her on FB.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yeah WH - where to live relative to your X and kids is an extremely difficult decision that could affect the child(ren) for life. Not an easy call to make.
> 
> As far as X being sad, confused and mixed up - absolutely right.
> 
> When she called to say goodnight to D7 last night, she asked D to put me on the phone when she was done. We talked for 5 or so about D. First time that's happened since she moved out.
> 
> This morning I woke to 3 more emails from her - D7 related.
> 
> Then at 8am a good friend of mine sent me a text. He was my closest friend here in the area and would stay with us for a weekend at least once a month. He grew close to X too over the years but moved back to our hometown last year (we went to HS together). He deleted X from his facebook as soon as I told him about the A.
> 
> Last night she sent him a new friend request. Deleted!


Zillard,

If you read about your x, soca's, regroup's, etc.... it's this way for all of them.

They're spent so much time in their own head, they have no earthly idea about consequences of their actions.

It NEVER turns out the way they think it will.


----------



## zillard

They've been repeating this story about their EA/PA in their head so many times that they believe it. They've convinced themselves that leaving the marriage had little to nothing to do with the A (and for a while convince their spouses of the same) so everyone else will see it that way too. Right? 

Wrong. A good example of this was the evening with ReGroup's cousin. stbxw was confident that cousin would see her delusion as reality - of course she would - it's reality! lol

So surprised and confused when that doesn't play out.


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> He deleted X from his facebook as soon as I told him about the A.
> 
> Last night she sent him a new friend request. Deleted!


 MAN I wish more people would do this. It is SUCH an in your face emotion to see someone delete you, when you know why.


----------



## zillard

Today was a doozy. D7 is sick so cancelled bday plans. I dropped her off like normal at x's apt. X asked me to step out on the porch to talk. 

She told me she can't change shifts because she has a mark against her for tardies. Her boss' boss heard about her situation and pulled her in to talk. Apparently boss lady offered to escalate her request to corporate to try and get around normal rules. 

X was expecting me to see this is proof that she is trying hard. "Why can't you see I'm trying". 

Z - I hear you. I do. But I don't see it. You've shown me nothing. 

She repeats over and again she is trying hard and starts crying. Tells me she cried in boss ladies office. I was unmoved. 

Z - do you understand that I'm looking for more than you just changing shifts?

X - that's what u want. U want me to change shifts and get away from posom. 

Z - that was true before the divorce. Now it has nothing to do with posom and nothing to do with us. This is ALL about D7 now. 

She was more and more frustrated and told me she had checked into a legal program at work but she can't afford legal fees. If she could we would be in court. 

I asked if she realized she's talking about challenging something that she wanted. 

She told me to leave. 

I stood up and asked when I could expect D7 back tomorrow. She said she might let me know. 

Z - I have a right to know when to expect D home. If you won't tell me now I want to know when you will tell me. Tonight or in the morning? 

She yelled at me to get the hell out. D heard. I went inside to give d a hug and kiss and let her know all is ok. X slammed the door, went in other room and slammed another door. 

I said goodbye to d. Told her she could call me anytime if she wants to talk and left. 

Next up - the many texts x sent me after I left.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch

zillard said:


> I asked if she realized she's talking about challenging something that she wanted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Awesome Z....You are turning almost indifferent. Love this quote from you! :smthumbup:


----------



## warlock07

I might have mixed up stories here but didn't she tell you that she needs your approval a lot (or was it the fear of your disapproval) in one of her emails ? Or was it another thread ?


----------



## zillard

Yeah, that was her warlock.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

Hard to have to face consequences of your decisions.


----------



## zillard

Now she's texting me about local honey. Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Fishin to see if I'm out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

Lol... I was out of town for a couple days this week... She texted me like 10 times about feeding my sons pet lizard... And called me about it.... Then had to text me several times about what to do with the dogs.... I think it was to see if I as out too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Fishin to see if I'm out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why wouldn't she fish? She is watching the kid and has nothing better to do but play with your mind.


----------



## zillard

Ok. After X kicked me out of her apt:

She yelled for me to get out and slammed doors. hid in her bedroom as I said goodbye to D7 and made sure she was ok.

I left. 

1:26 pm

X - I'm trying. Hard. but trying to talk to you is like talking to a brick wall. As usual.

Z - I'm sorry you feel that way.

Z - I am not ok with yelling and slamming doors around D7.

X - I have to slam the patio door or it won't close. (bullsh!t)

X - I'm sorry you feel like such a self-righteous martyr.

X - And I've done an awesome job with controlling my temper until today.

Z - I'm not ok with insults. 

X - I'm not insulting. just observing.

X - your passive aggressive stance makes me so angry. Next weeks session needs to be with you and I. 

X - What meds did you give D7 today? (I already told her and she already wrote them down previous to our talk on the patio)

X - She is literally choking on snot

Z - Sudafed and Mucinex at 10am

X - Can you please schedule a dr appt for her? Her ears are hurting.

X - Do they sell local honey out your way (where she lived for 3 years and already knows because I've already purchased at her request.)

I did not respond. We already discussed all of this.


----------



## whitehawk

zillard said:


> Yeah WH - where to live relative to your X and kids is an extremely difficult decision that could affect the child(ren) for life. Not an easy call to make.
> 
> As far as X being sad, confused and mixed up - absolutely right.
> 
> When she called to say goodnight to D7 last night, she asked D to put me on the phone when she was done. We talked for 5 or so about D. First time that's happened since she moved out.
> 
> This morning I woke to 3 more emails from her - D7 related.
> 
> Then at 8am a good friend of mine sent me a text. He was my closest friend here in the area and would stay with us for a weekend at least once a month. He grew close to X too over the years but moved back to our hometown last year (we went to HS together). He deleted X from his facebook as soon as I told him about the A.
> 
> Last night she sent him a new friend request. Deleted!


Yeah your not wrong , the moving thing scares the hell out of me , like daughter stuff . Trying to be a dad like this was never part of the plan.

Well , sounds like she might be finding her motherly side again , great for your D anyway .. You know I get the impression sometimes that some women feel they can have a break , drop the basket in your lap so to speak , because from the day they get preg it never stops for most mums.


----------



## whitehawk

hope4family said:


> Why wouldn't she fish? She is watching the kid and has nothing better to do but play with your mind.



But isn't it a good thing , she still gives a fk about what your doing.
Personally l'm pretty pleased when mine does a bit of fishing , it helps me knowing she at least still cares a bit.


----------



## whitehawk

zillard said:


> They've been repeating this story about their EA/PA in their head so many times that they believe it. They've convinced themselves that leaving the marriage had little to nothing to do with the A (and for a while convince their spouses of the same) so everyone else will see it that way too. Right?
> 
> Wrong. A good example of this was the evening with ReGroup's cousin. stbxw was confident that cousin would see her delusion as reality - of course she would - it's reality! lol
> 
> So surprised and confused when that doesn't play out.


Yeah this is something like why l mentioned my own grass is greener thing in early days , l sort of went through a lot of this stuff back then.
And really , again just before my marriage broke up with an EA , cept I didn't even realize there was such a thing until coming here after the damage. Although there was a lot more to it than that but , nother story !

You realize later as it all shows itself , that what you think , or the way things are with even a friend that gets too far , is just so nothing , compared to the depth of a marriage, of what you share, building your lives, the children , the years together, it's like a mountain beside a grain of sand.
The walk away people just seem to need to live the illusion through and find out the hard way.

PS , and then end up on online dating sites years later alone I think .


----------



## ReGroup

Z! You are getting a little too good with this stuff. Some ReGroup envy is setting in. 

Seems like this method just puts a mirror right in front of them. The WAW/WAS is so used to having the other take the hit. Now, you have this woman taking (or forced to take) ownership for her words and actions.

Must be a complete mind F' for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Yes. In November I was trying to get her to go to counseling with me. She went once, was faced with the fact that she was in an A, and refused to go back. 

Now she is the one telling me that we should have a joint session on Thursday. 

It is a little funny that she still thinks I'm trying to get her away from posOM - even after divorce. It shows her selfishness. 

Sorry babe - it's not all about you anymore.


----------



## Garry2012

The more I read your thread the more I think it's my future. Why do they think its time to work on the marriage.... After the divorce?!?!? So weird
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

For some, that's when they finally realize that you weren't just bluffing.


----------



## loveispatient

zillard said:


> Yes. In November I was trying to get her to go to counseling with me. She went once, was faced with the fact that she was in an A, and refused to go back.
> 
> Now she is the one telling me that we should have a joint session on Thursday.
> 
> It is a little funny that she still thinks I'm trying to get her away from posOM - even after divorce. It shows her selfishness.
> 
> Sorry babe - it's not all about you anymore.


I think it's difficult to be confronted by our own weaknesses and flaws. I'm doing the best with mine and in a lot of ways, IC has been helpful. 

Things that I was afraid to voicing, weren't as "big" as I imagined them out to be. Now for "H" on the other hand, it might be a different thing all together. He feels strongly that he's not at fault for anything or rather minimizes his part in the fact that our marriage is failing (or has failed). 

So it'll be "interesting" when we have our first MC together.


----------



## zillard

loveispatient said:


> Now for "H" on the other hand, it might be a different thing all together. He feels strongly that he's not at fault for anything or rather minimizes his part in the fact that our marriage is failing (or has failed).


It think we all probably do this. It's when we stop that the progress begins.


----------



## hope4family

whitehawk said:


> But isn't it a good thing , she still gives a fk about what your doing.
> Personally l'm pretty pleased when mine does a bit of fishing , it helps me knowing she at least still cares a bit.


Only you can truly know how to read your spouse or soon to be ex spouse. 

Let me be clear. I don't see her texting him only when she has the child as her giving a flip. Only "Z" knows the underlying message from her. Even then, he probably can't be sure. 

For example, my ex only IM's me with two things. Divorce related stuff, and child related activities. Anything more to me, is just fishing into my personal life.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Only you can truly know how to read your spouse or soon to be ex spouse.
> 
> Let me be clear. I don't see her texting him only when she has the child as her giving a flip. Only "Z" knows the underlying message from her. Even then, he probably can't be sure.


Her texts that have nothing to do with D7 or divorce business are usually about fishing for validation - to see if I still care enough about her to respond.

If I'm out enjoying myself or sitting at home alone.

If she's still my top priority. 

If I'm still hooked.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Her texts that have nothing to do with D7 or divorce business are usually about fishing for validation - to see if I still care enough about her to respond.
> 
> If I'm out enjoying myself or sitting at home alone.
> 
> If she's still my top priority.
> 
> If I'm still hooked.


She's starving for "crumbs" from ole trusty, because she doesn't love herself. 

It's ridiculous how much pride this woman has, because its very obvious how she really feels. :scratchhead:


----------



## zillard

Today I went to the salon and got my hair cut. This is new for me. For over 5 years I've shaved my head at home - clippers. I'm letting the hair grow out and trying something new. 

It's great to have someone else do the grooming for me. Relaxing. Kicking back and letting a woman wash my hair. I even got an unexpected head massage. 

X showed up just after 6 to drop off D7. I got one of those awesome run and jump bear hugs. As always I instantly started joking and playing around with my little princess. X was cordial as ever. She lingered. She must've said goodbye to D7 five or six times - stopping to watch us play in between. 

On her way out the door she said goodbye and I love you again to D7, who did not respond. She already had multiple times. 

9:55p text
X - Is there anyway sputnik will fit in the vw? If you still have it, anyway. I'd really like to have it if possible. 

Sputnik is her retro metal lamp that arches and hangs over the couch - it needs rewiring and has been in the garage for some time. It won't fit in her car. 

This is another example of fishing. Trying to see if I threw away her favorite lamp (we forgot it in the move and told me I could), and see if I'll jump to bring it to her if I didn't. I still have the lamp. I will take her the lamp. *IF* she asks me politely to do so. 

Z - It could maybe fit. 

Answer the only question she asked. Promise nothing that was not asked.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> It's ridiculous how much pride this woman has


Yes, HK - the pride is strong with this one.

Z - It could maybe fit. 

X - That would be awesome and greatly appreciated. I need to rewire it, but you know how I love that hideous thing.

Z - Are you asking me to bring it to you?

X - Yes. It was supposed to go in the moving truck, but never made it. 

X - If you still have it, and its possible, I'd like to have it. If its too much of a hassle, forget about it. A bummer, but not the end of the world.

Z - If you would like me to do something for you, I prefer to be asked. No hassle, no anger, just a boundary.

X - I thought I was asking. Sorry my wording wasn't up to par.


Too prideful to ask a simple question: Will you please bring the lamp to me? Am I being controlling here? I don't think so. But would love to hear if anyone here does.


----------



## HappyKaty

You're not being controlling, at all. She already knows that boundary, but she's convinced she can still get away with her behavior by guilting you ("Sorry my wording wasn't up to par.") Poor X...she has to play by the rules.

I used to be the same way. I couldn't admit that someone else was ever right, because I was always right, in my mind. It's a technique used to prove yourself, to yourself.


----------



## zillard

2:14am

X - I'm not trying to be snarky.

ray:


----------



## turnera

My H won't ask a question, either. Hate it.


----------



## hope4family

HappyKaty said:


> *You're not being controlling, at all. She already knows that boundary, but she's convinced she can still get away with her behavior by guilting you* ("Sorry my wording wasn't up to par.") Poor X...she has to play by the rules.
> 
> I used to be the same way. I couldn't admit that someone else was ever right, because I was always right, in my mind. It's a technique used to prove yourself, to yourself.


Makes me feel better reading that. 

Z - My ex would pull the same stunt on me. Simply stating that I want an actual question asked to me, made me feel like I was coming across as controlling and manipulative. She even accused it as such. 

"Because I should know her better then that." I never realized how controlling that was until I just wrote that out. Odd.


----------



## Garry2012

Seems like you are running into the same thing i am. See, I dont talk to my STBXW like i used to...soft and giving...so it comes off to her as me being a jerk to her. Its a different bantering style, and while you are making it comfortable for you, its not what she wants or expects..so she gets angry. Thats my cent and a half.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> 2:14am
> 
> X - I'm not trying to be snarky.
> 
> ray:


Maybe wasn't _trying_ to be... but she was.


Pb.


----------



## hope4family

turnera said:


> My H won't ask a question, either. Hate it.


OMG I feel so much better reading those texts and then you saying this. For so long I've been so paranoid that this was controlling and manipulative behavior based on how long we knew each other. 

Now I just know, that it was her trying to make me "conform".


----------



## zillard

I guess we'll see how bad she really wants the lamp.

Snarky McSnarkerson


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I guess we'll see how bad she really wants the lamp.
> 
> Snarky McSnarkerson


She's looking for you to jump to fix.

You realize THAT is codependence - in a nutshell.

Dropping everything, rearranging your life and schedule, because whatever she wants (no matter how trivial) is miles more important than anything you could possibly have going.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Seems like you are running into the same thing i am. See, I dont talk to my STBXW like i used to...soft and giving...so it comes off to her as me being a jerk to her. Its a different bantering style, and while you are making it comfortable for you, its not what she wants or expects..so she gets angry. Thats my cent and a half.


I think it was you that wrote before - she say's I'm hot and you turn on the fan.

They express what they want, and expect us to react. 

...because that's what we've done.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Makes me feel better reading that.
> 
> Z - My ex would pull the same stunt on me. Simply stating that I want an actual question asked to me, made me feel like I was coming across as controlling and manipulative. She even accused it as such.
> 
> "Because I should know her better then that." I never realized how controlling that was until I just wrote that out. Odd.


= "Because you should wait on her better than that."


----------



## warlock07

"I threw it away..."


----------



## zillard

warlock07 said:


> "I threw it away..."


No way. It's in the garage sale pile. Might as well get something out of it if she doesn't ask nicely.


----------



## zillard

She's more than welcome to come buy it if she's too stubborn to ask.


----------



## turnera

*snort*


----------



## zillard

I received my approved papers in the mail today. Officially divorced since 2/22/13. 

Ladies... here I come. 

New and improved Z.2


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> I received my approved papers in the mail today. Officially divorced since 2/22/13.
> 
> Ladies... here I come.
> 
> New and improved Z.2


Well done. I am happy for you. I am working on hope2.0. For the most part, he is here pending his s2bxw signature.


----------



## hope4family

In my opinion, you need to throw a officially divorced party to celebrate your new life. Or a funeral, depending on how you feel. 

I'm throwing a funeral personally. Even though when its done i'll be happy its over.


----------



## Conrad

I would have the divorce celebration.

And, you should serve posOM's favorite beer.

Make sure you invite someone that will tell her.


----------



## turnera

Congratulations.


----------



## zillard

X was here yesterday and saw my calendar. The Saturdays are booked with times and no details. 

Dinner and a movie with TigerTat38 this Saturday. 

Last night got word from TigerTat30 that she'll be in town on vacation for a week in March. Time to take X's exBFF up on her babysitting offer. I told TT30 she can't meet D7 yet. She was glad because she knows why.


----------



## HappyKaty

Congrats, Z!

Celebrate BIG, deary! I know I plan to. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> X was here yesterday and saw my calendar. The Saturdays are booked with times and no details.
> 
> Dinner and a movie with TigerTat38 this Saturday.
> 
> Last night got word from TigerTat30 that she'll be in town on vacation for a week in March. Time to take X's exBFF up on her babysitting offer. I told TT30 she can't meet D7 yet. She was glad because she knows why.


NOBODY meets D7 until you have some sort of understanding with them.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> NOBODY meets D7 until you have some sort of understanding with them.


Yes! One thing we like about each other is our parenting. She completely understands and responded very well when I laid that down - before she even asked.


----------



## ReGroup

Z, I was so caught up with my thread I didn't notice you were Divorced officially.

Are you joining Chucky in the LAD section?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> Z, I was so caught up with my thread I didn't notice you were Divorced officially.
> 
> Are you joining Chucky in the LAD section?


I'll probably be in both until the big move. 

Unless hell (Arizona) freezes over and simultaneously thaws out and shatters the walls surrounding a cold, stubborn woman's heart before then. 

So yeah. I'll be in both until the big move.


----------



## whitehawk

HappyKaty said:


> She's starving for "crumbs" from ole trusty, because she doesn't love herself.
> 
> It's ridiculous how much pride this woman has, because its very obvious how she really feels. :scratchhead:



That's what I reckon , that and she just got married too young and needed to cut loose for awhile,
Unfortunately for her it doesn't work that way though I guess.


----------



## zillard

I hope it was worth it. From where I'm sittin it sure doesn't look like she's having much fun. 

I do wish her the best. I hope she finds happiness.

I can't give it her. Neither can anyone else.


----------



## zillard

2.0 - ready to go.


----------



## whitehawk

It's not you though is it z ?


----------



## zillard

whitehawk said:


> It's not you though is it z ?


'tis


----------



## whitehawk

Your sh2tten me.

I always thought you were a suit


----------



## zillard

whitehawk said:


> I always thought you were a suit


Ha. Only when I have to be. I wore one long enough to prove myself and get work-at-home status. Now I stay at home with D7 and draw stuff like this

<-------


----------



## whitehawk

Ah hu , good for you. i was an artist painter for 11yrs, went broke. really miss it but at least i get paid now.
i really should've done some sort of commercial art /design , best of both worlds. i often think now of my talent going to waste.
i don't really miss painting though , it just messes with your head and life too much.
But by the time i finish rebuilding after all this now for the 2nd time-because of art the first time , i don't think i'll give a fk what the hell i do anymore . Live life instead maybe .


----------



## whitehawk

and hey , you wanna try walking into the bank for some finance when your a painter !


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> 'tis


Rock. On.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

Looks like X got her papers in the mail too. Or was just up all night drinking again. 

Yesterday I sent her an update on D7 - sick on antibiotics. D7 asked that I text a photo of a puzzle we did together too. This was well before she called D7 to say goodnight, so I know she saw them early.

4:19am

X - Watch WTF reaction to that med. It made me puke a LOT when I was younger. It's pretty heavy duty

X - The, not Wtf. Autocorrect is a douche

X - And the puzzle is rad. She likes her puzzles 

12:24pm

Z - I will keep an eye on D7. I'm not ok with late night texts. Please be considerate. 

No response. 

PS - she still hasn't asked if I'll deliver the lamp.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> 2.0 - ready to go.


Your ex-wife is a dumb ass.

Err...I mean, I like your tats.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> Your ex-wife is a dumb ass.
> 
> Err...I mean, I like your tats.


Thanks Katy. HowYOUdoin? :awink:


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Looks like X got her papers in the mail too. Or was just up all night drinking again.
> 
> Yesterday I sent her an update on D7 - sick on antibiotics. D7 asked that I text a photo of a puzzle we did together too. This was well before she called D7 to say goodnight, so I know she saw them early.
> 
> 4:19am
> 
> X - Watch WTF reaction to that med. It made me puke a LOT when I was younger. It's pretty heavy duty
> 
> X - The, not Wtf. Autocorrect is a douche
> 
> X - And the puzzle is rad. She likes her puzzles
> 
> 12:24pm
> 
> Z - I will keep an eye on D7. I'm not ok with late night texts. Please be considerate.
> 
> No response.
> 
> PS - she still hasn't asked if I'll deliver the lamp.


She's likely forgotten about it.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> She's likely forgotten about it.


Yeah, "scatterbrain" would be an understatement.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yeah, "scatterbrain" would be an understatement.


The essence of codependence is to internalize the conviction that all those various scattershot observations/requests/ideas actually mean something.

One sets about an action plan to address those scattershot issues and is likely to be met with a confused face about why on earth are you doing that?

Easy to see how resentment builds in those situations - and powerlessness sets in.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> The essence of codependence is to internalize the conviction that all those various scattershot observations/requests/ideas actually mean something.
> 
> One sets about an action plan to address those scattershot issues and is likely to be met with a confused face about why on earth are you doing that?
> 
> Easy to see how resentment builds in those situations - and powerlessness sets in.


Yeah, for a spell there I was sitting here figuring out how to fit the thing in the wagon and mentally preparing to drop it off Saturday at kid swap. Actually hoping that she would ask so I can. 

^^^ Slipping into fixer mode.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yeah, for a spell there I was sitting here figuring out how to fit the thing in the wagon and mentally preparing to drop it off Saturday at kid swap. Actually hoping that she would ask so I can.
> 
> ^^^ Slipping into fixer mode.


Dislike


----------



## ReGroup

Lol... At least you are catching yourself now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## whitehawk

zillard said:


> Thanks Katy. HowYOUdoin? :awink:



Yeah your a classic looking dude z , great pic :smthumbup:


----------



## zillard

Thanks hawk. It was really good to read about your troubles and successes as a painter. Early in college I wrestled with the idea of going into fine art vs commercial. I get more fulfillment out of fine art, but love the financial security of commercial art and design. And with that stability I have the freedom to do other stuff on the side - the more personal outlet. 

Would love to see some of your work sometime. PM some pics or something? I have a few pen & ink and scratchboards up on my profile.


----------



## whitehawk

Thanks z , yeah we'll work something out. Did you do the original Zillard pic , nice that one. The face sides a nice pic too.
But as you'd see I actually chopped most of that post in the end but I'm glad you didn't mind it then .
I just felt as usual , here I go on about my own bs in someone else s thread again . I have a real habit of getting of the track.

You did the right thing in your art believe me , imo anyway. Best of both worlds.
The painting world , galleries , people you deal with, friends of friends , the lot. Suddenly everyone's an expert, it gets really, really, irritating and the art world can be full of absolute [email protected] too. But the head's the worst. I use to have my own quote on my site and on all of my exhibition brochures,
"a painters head is a very dangerous place" and it is too .

My poor wife , what she put up with !
We got upto sometimes getting 4 and 5k a painting at times but usually that'd only be a few times a year and it wasn't much with a family, forget it .
I think in say another 5yrs I would have become a big name , everyone said it but hey they weren't living they way me and my poor wife and daughter had to live. They had nice cars, credit cards , savings , finance , a home. 
And they had just every day people around them, peace of mind , a life . I wouldn't wanna go back really .


----------



## RAN

zillard said:


> 'tis


Great


----------



## zillard

Had a really good conversation with TigerTat30 last night. It got pretty deep. 

We discussed giving to get, unhealthy attachments, caretaking vs caregiving, therapy, behavior patterns, emotional honesty and healing relationships. 

It was very refreshing. Much better than the standard BS with a random woman at a bar.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Had a really good conversation with TigerTat30 last night. It got pretty deep.
> 
> We discussed giving to get, unhealthy attachments, caretaking vs caregiving, therapy, behavior patterns, emotional honesty and healing relationships.
> 
> It was very refreshing. Much better than the standard BS with a random woman at a bar.


If you understand this stuff, you'll be considered eternally fascinating.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> If you understand this stuff, you'll be considered eternally fascinating.


healthy
stimulating
on a different level

...she says. I agree.


----------



## Chuck71

Did you discuss why Alan Greenspan is not in jail for the 2002 ARM?


----------



## terrence4159

just jumping in a sec here congratulations (sad had to look it up cause i couldnt spell, it tattooed ******* here) on the D Z!! and for the record i never thought you were a suit!


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Did you discuss why Alan Greenspan is not in jail for the 2002 ARM?


lol. Funny Chuck.


----------



## zillard

terrence4159 said:


> just jumping in a sec here congratulations (sad had to look it up cause i couldnt spell, it tattooed ******* here) on the D Z!! and for the record i never thought you were a suit!


Thanks T-dog!


----------



## Chuck71

The Taming of the New.....in theatres this summer


----------



## hope4family

So whats next for you now that you are divorced?


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> So whats next for you now that you are divorced?


Better yet... what isn't?


----------



## zillard

Tomorrow morning I have a joint session with X and the child psych. It should be interesting to hear what she has to say. 

After that I have my own IC appointment, and I plan to continue IC to improve my self awareness and work through my issues. Self help books are still being purchased and I continue my exercise routine, which is new for me and feels great. 

As I get better at tackling the big issues I throw in more small goals. Improving the diet. Improving my professional skills. 

I continue to sort through the belongings and slowly pack to prepare the house for the market. That is one area where I am behind and I need to step it up. Listing the house will need to be pushed back a week or two, but that doesn't bother me. 

Today I confirmed my date with Tiger38 and am looking forward to that. "Sounds wonderful" she says. Before that I will be tackling the yard and then Sunday back to sorting and prepping for a garage sale that I'd like to hold next weekend.

A few weeks from now Tiger30 will be in town visiting and wants to do a group meditation session and dinner. Our conversations keep getting better and better and I'm learning she is nearly a completely different person than the girl I knew a decade ago - an improved version. But we are being open and realistic about the nature of the relationship at this point - a strong healing friendship with potential and no rush.

Meanwhile I work at remaining outside (or in the center of) the drama triangle when interacting with X, and am doing everything I can to help D7 cope and enjoy herself during this life-altering transition. It is rough for her and we've got a long road ahead of us. But she is strong and amazes me every day.


----------



## Chuck71

Have you been to the IC with X yet? If this is your first visit since you posted the gang up on you....if it happens again......
"I'm not comfy with this" get up and leave. The IC is there for YOU...not to do a sideshow of "the view"


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Better yet... what isn't?


Reconciliation? 


Pb.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Have you been to the IC with X yet? If this is your first visit since you posted the gang up on you....if it happens again......
> "I'm not comfy with this" get up and leave. The IC is there for YOU...not to do a sideshow of "the view"


Agreed. First time back. I'm also taking a printout of all the recent texts and plan on discussing X yelling and kicking me out of the apartment in front of D7. 

I don't care how angry she was - that is simply inexcusable - and if a child psychologist doesn't agree with me there... she's fired.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Agreed. First time back. I'm also taking a printout of all the recent texts and plan on discussing X yelling and kicking me out of the apartment in front of D7.
> 
> I don't care how angry she was - that is simply inexcusable - and if a child psychologist doesn't agree with me there... she's fired.


She starts with any B.S. about how you "need to understand X's feelings" and you get up silently and leave - never to return.


----------



## hope4family

Unless there is a part of the story I am not understanding. Then I agree, do not tolerate this behavior, and do not take advice from someone who enables it. 

If you are truthful in your side of the story. Then if you succumb and meet her halfway on this. You are only proving that you have learned nothing.


----------



## hope4family

I went back and re-read. Yeah, don't tolerate it. Are you being tough. Yeah, but that's the point. 

Saying that your shifts have been rejected to be changed and thats "good enough" to prove it to you is stupidity. 

She doesn't feel like she is being faced with a real challenge. If this was a matter of life and death, if it was a matter of truly wanting her daughter close. Then risks, including quitting her job. Must be taken. 

I'm afraid at this point that even if she does get a shift change that you will have to deal with these shenanigans for the rest of your life regardless of your location to her. 

At this point, minimize the damage she can cause to you and D7. There is no such thing as minimizing the damage to D7 by putting yourself at risk. That's setting a terrible example in my mind. 

I hate to put it this way. But your daughter still has another 10 years. Do you not think that she will change shifts and merely change back once she has established enough false trust. People get what they want and sometimes they fake it just long enough and then the rug sweep. 

I employ you to stand firm on your decision to leave. If she challenges it, then so be it. She has to challenge it on her dime which according to her, she cannot afford.


----------



## zillard

Ok, no flipping of the IC was necessary. It seems my IC did that already when they both conferred last week. 

I got there early. X texted that she'd be late. I met with the C and informed her of the Saturday incident at X's apt and then we went over the printout of the texts. X came in halfway through the text review. 

C asked for X's input on the incident at her apt. She tried to excuse her door slamming saying she has to slam it to close properly. I calmly stated that I close it without slamming and that's not the only door she slammed. Plus she yelled "get the hell out of my apt" where D7 could hear. She admitted.

It was acknowledged that as she gets riled up and angry I "become Dr Phil", which she gets even more angry about. As her emotions become more jumbled she feels crazier because she sees me get calmer and more collected, which she simply cannot understand. 

C explained that Z is a completely different person than the man she married. Previous my calmness was a codependent mask, but now it is confident, healthy boundaries - which are new and can seem controlling... but are not.

X expressed that she often wished/wishes I would just blow up and yell and scream at her (that's what she knows from her childhood). 

I stated that blowing up and yelling is unacceptable to me and I won't tolerate it, especially around D7. X is trying to convince me to stay local and this type of behavior does the opposite. C discussed this with X and got her to admit that she also does not want that around her daughter, so I am not in the wrong and she needs to work on this with her own IC. 

C decided we both need to draw up clear boundaries for each other - in black on white - on paper, then and there. We each went over our boundaries as C wrote them down and then we both got a copy of each. 

Mine:

1. No texting between Midnight and 8am. Only cross this in emergency. Otherwise, email.

2. If you need something, ask. Ask means using a question mark and involves "you". Could you, would you, will you, can you, do you.

3. 24 hours notice if kid swap times will be changed. 

4. If kid swap time change goes into my time, it means needing something. Refer to #2.

5. When reactivity is triggered, I will remove myself without explanation and revisit when things have settled down.

6. When I get angry I will let X know right away in a healthy way. 

X agreed to respect them. C recommended codependency books for X - she had a lot of trouble coming up with her own boundaries. Didn't know what to say. We are revisiting next week. 

I suggested one for her. I am aware that I have pushed arguments in the past. I acknowledged this and apologized for the disrespect. I could not control her emotions/feeling so I would attempt to control the arguments. Now, X has safe words "I'm done" and she gets to stop without question.

After the boundary discussion I stated that a court battle would be the worst case scenario and detrimental to all of us. X and C agreed and it has been shelved. C mentioned that my IC discussed with her the available option of X moving and that it should not be removed from the discussions. C emphasized to X that this is 2 therapists now that see it as a viable option. 

X then stated that she has also recently been looking for jobs in my home state, but there isn't much. I told her I understand she is wary of facing my family, but that I have talked with them and most of them said the same thing, "every single person in this family has done something terrible in the past" and that they are all still loved and accepted. 

We left it at that and have another session next week.


----------



## ReGroup

I am impressed with your transfomation zillard. I'm going to borrow some of those items on your list!

She underestimated you... we sure as hell didn't.

Masculine Mettle on roids.

These counseling sessions, will they continue to consist of you both attending? What's the end game? Is the counselor trying to get you both back together?


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> I am impressed with your transfomation zillard. I'm going to borrow some of those items on your list!
> 
> She underestimated you... we sure as hell didn't.
> 
> Masculine Mettle on roids.
> 
> These counseling, will they continue to consist of you both attending? What's the end game? Is the counselor trying to get you both back together?


Right now, it sounds like a good exercise in boundary setting for co-parenting.

If it goes further than that likely depends on whether X is able to pull her head from her ass.

Not to mention, how soon that may occur.


----------



## Chuck71

Zill-Your X is running scared. But you said she has always been this way. It is great she is owning her emotions now. That is the only way to lead her to the path. Will she ever? And will it be too late?


----------



## zillard

Yes, the C stated she has no intentions as far as our relationship goes, other than to improve the co-parenting situation. 

"This IS your daughter's therapy"

It is clear to me though that she (and Conrad too) understand that improvements could potentially go somewhere. Maybe. I think that had a bit to do with the C previously pressing me to consider staying - as I had earlier made it clear to the C that I never wanted divorce.


----------



## ReGroup

Chucky, she better get her act together quick! Tiger Lady is gaining ground and fast.


----------



## ReGroup

BTW, one of my great friends (female) is trying to set me up on a date! 

Last time I spat game was in 2003.

Z, help a brother out. Being that you have a way with the ladies.


----------



## HappyKaty

ReGroup said:


> BTW, one of my great friends (female) is trying to set me up on a date!
> 
> Last time I spat game was in 2003.
> 
> Z, help a brother out. Being that you have a way with the ladies.


The fact that you just said "spat game" means you're good to go. 

Happy spitting!  Wait...that's what I should say to the female...


----------



## Chuck71

<----dis ol kuntrey guy dont now wut 'spat game' is. brb jeff foxworthy callin'


----------



## turnera

You sound a LOT older than her. She must be mentally stunted at age 13 or something.


----------



## terrence4159

i love how the not saying anything bothers them, one time my XW slept in our kid and her 2 other kids were wondering around in the road, child services picked them up took them away. she called me crying i said nothing and hung up (called cps right away) got in huge fights with them about getting my son back and what losers THEY are for not calling me (xw told them im the father 50/50 custody) 

got my son back 8 hrs later (lawyer) and she did tell my wife she wanted me to yell at her tell her what a loser mom she was. i didnt never said a word to her


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> BTW, one of my great friends (female) is trying to set me up on a date!
> 
> Last time I spat game was in 2003.
> 
> Z, help a brother out. Being that you have a way with the ladies.


Awesome news RG!

Dry humor, even a bit offensive, followed by a compliment. Then be youself, but the fun silly version.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> You sound a LOT older than her. She must be mentally stunted at age 13 or something.


I don't doubt this at all. She has a brother many yrs younger who she had to raise for years while her BPD/NPD mother and stepfather were busy boozing and beating on each other. 

Actually I would correct you and say emotionally stunted. Mentally she's pretty dam smart. Advanced placement, honors programs, straight A's and dean's list in tech school. She excels where she applies herself. She just avoids her emotional center like the plague.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I don't doubt this at all. She has a brother many yrs younger who she had to raise for years while her BPD/NPD mother and stepfather were busy boozing and beating on each other.
> 
> Actually I would correct you and say emotionally stunted. Mentally she's pretty dam smart. Advanced placement, honors programs, straight A's and dean's list in tech school. She excels where she applies herself. She just avoids her emotional center like the plague.


She's also the valedictorian of "Early AM Text Messages from the Ether"


----------



## hope4family

Unfortunately one of the things that makes BPD/NPD so hard to spot, is that they typically can excel at something very well that it masks the underlying issue.


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> Unfortunately one of the things that makes BPD/NPD so hard to spot, is that they typically can excel at something very well that it masks the underlying issue.


And, it's usually sex.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> And, it's usually sex.


where they excel? :whip:


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> And, it's usually sex.





zillard said:


> where they excel? :whip:


:iagree:

Fits with my experience.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> where they excel? :whip:


Absolutely.

I think the root and branch of codependent thinking is being blown away by how good looking your female companion is and thinking that you are "lucky to have her"

IF that is your mindset, you're headed for trouble.

What more "incentive" is there to think that you're lucky to have her than this drop-dead beautiful woman knows how to rock your world - and does it with regularity?


----------



## zillard

yep, more than a couple days without was unheard of.


----------



## zillard

Anyone read this?

How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves - Roger Melton, M.A.


----------



## Uptown

zillard said:


> Anyone read this?
> How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves - Roger Melton, M.A.


Yes, Zillard, I've read it and found it to be quite insightful (but overly black-white in its depiction of BPDers). If you are interested in reading more about typical BPDer behaviors, I suggest you look at my post in Maybe's thread. My post, which describes experiences I had with my BPDer exW, is at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that discussion rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you.

I caution, however, that BPDers do not hide their BPD traits for several years in a marriage. I mention this because, at the beginning of this thread, you seem to describe your 10-year relationship as being good until your W started working outside the home about a year ago. Hence, if your problems only started then, you are NOT describing a strong pattern of BPD traits. Take care, Zillard.


----------



## zillard

Uptown said:


> Yes, Zillard, I've read it and found it to be quite insightful (but overly black-white in its depiction of BPDers). If you are interested in reading more about typical BPDer behaviors, I suggest you look at my post in Maybe's thread. My post, which describes experiences I had with my BPDer exW, is at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that discussion rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you.
> 
> I caution, however, that BPDers do not hide their BPD traits for several years in a marriage. I mention this because, at the beginning of this thread, you seem to describe your 10-year relationship as being good until your W started working outside the home about a year ago. Hence, if your problems only started then, you are NOT describing a strong pattern of BPD traits. Take care, Zillard.


Hi UpTown. 

Months ago I read your post about BiPolar vs BPD traits and it fit her to a T. Splitting me black and white, the most intense rages immediately following really intimate moments (locking me out of the house after make up sex, etc). Constantly criticizing others. Unable to take a compliment yet furious at any criticism. 

All criticism of me was always a gross exaggeration or just totally outside reality (feelings = fact). She could kick a door shut leaving scuff marks or slam a toilet cover hard enough to break porcelain and not remember and never apologize. But if I didn't shut a door softly I was slamming it to piss her off on purpose. 

I have Stop Walking On Eggshells. About 3 chapters in I think there is a quote from a BPDer where she is describing her feeling towards her SO ignoring her and watching TV and how it was the ultimate betrayal and proof that he didn't love her so she would find another to make her feel special and push and push and until they split. This was my X. I showed her that snippet and it completely shocked her. She admitted it could have been her who wrote it. 

I did describe my 10yr marriage as good. I thought so for a long time. I was a codependent in complete denial. To the point where I avoided talking to my own family. I never talked to anyone at all about any problems I had in my marriage. Never. I was subconsciously hiding so I wouldn't have to face it - and god forbid anyone see my wife treating me mean. I moved away from my family to another state in order to please my X - where there was no support system at all. And to protect my delusion.

She alienated all her friends and family. If anyone gets too close they get cut off - so they never see her true self. Complete self loathing. Always angry. Never left the house for dates. Never trusted babysitters. Incredible sex - that she used as leverage and frequently threatened to take away as punishment for the smallest things. "If you ever want to get laid again you will... " etc. And when she was in a rage (instant onset and over in hours) she would say the foulest things. I make her feel so unloved that she can't even masterbate, etc. 

That is why I say she did me a favor by having her affair. It woke the h3ll out of me! And I think that is why I've gone through the Dday > separation > divorce process so quickly with such resolve. I truly didn't see it before. I had zero boundaries by the time the decade was up. I was a freaking eunuch puppet. 

"but I love her" rang so true in that article. I'm still unsure if she is full-fledged BPD or just learned behavior from her BPD/NPD mother (no doubt there). I've read that many children of BPD mothers can exhibit much of the same behavior but be higher functioning. That is much like her. Nobody would know - they would just think she's a sassy little firecracker. 

And that is why the only people she associates with now are friends from work who have known her for less than 1 year. She literally doesn't associate with anyone else.


----------



## hope4family

Other then the sex thing...yeah thats pretty close. 

Sex was good...for like the first month, but then again I've only had one partner. Nothing to compare to.


----------



## zillard

But when she wasn't raging or angry she would be painting me white. Posting all over Facebook about how awesome her husband is. Bragging about me to all her coworkers (and telling me about it of course). Big talk about the best husband in the world. The only person to ever understand her. She swore she would never marry. Ever. But I was so special I was the only man who could ever change her mind. 

Yet on Bdays I was never surprised with a party. She never invited my friends over to celebrate. She would ask me what I wanted and get just that. Or give me permission to buy a bbq. As long as I went and got it and she didn't have to help. Unlike most women, I would have to remind her of our anniversary, etc. Always selfish. Always giving just enough to get what she wanted. 

And I let her. Shame on me. 

But 2.0 is awesome. Don't get me wrong. I'm not beating myself up - just finally being realistic.


----------



## geek down

What to do with 'I don't know'?

My ex's answer the question is the child mine was 'I dont know'.

with questions like that and the ones the OP asked his wife, "I dont Know" tells you more then a 'yes'.


----------



## zillard

geek down said:


> What to do with 'I don't know'?
> 
> My ex's answer the question is the child mine was 'I dont know'.
> 
> with questions like that and the ones the OP asked his wife, "I dont Know" tells you more then a 'yes'.


Yep. 

Z - Do you want to stay married?

X - I don't know.

Wrong answer. Bye.


----------



## zillard

Oof. After flirting with super sandwich girl for many moons, I grabbed an extra business card and threw it in my wallet - dead set on finally asking her out today. 

You snooze, you lose. I was informed by the other staff (without asking) that she left yesterday and is now working at a Doctor's office while she finishes up her schooling. One day too late. 

Maybe her replacement will make a bad sammy and I'll get sick. lol.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Oof. After flirting with super sandwich girl for many moons, I grabbed an extra business card and threw it in my wallet - dead set on finally asking her out today.
> 
> You snooze, you lose. I was informed by the other staff (without asking) that she left yesterday and is now working at a Doctor's office while she finishes up her schooling. One day too late.
> 
> Maybe her replacement will make a bad sammy and I'll get sick. lol.


If it's not a gynecologist, it's likely time for an appointment.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> If it's not a gynecologist, it's likely time for an appointment.


Ha! Maybe I'll catch something from tigerlady tomorrow and be pleasantly surprised at the urologist. :rofl:


----------



## Chuck71

KWOTE

But when she wasn't raging or angry she would be painting me white. Posting all over Facebook about how awesome her husband is. Bragging about me to all her coworkers (and telling me about it of course). Big talk about the best husband in the world. The only person to ever understand her. She swore she would never marry. Ever. But I was so special I was the only man who could ever change her mind. 

Yet on Bdays I was never surprised with a party. She never invited my friends over to celebrate. She would ask me what I wanted and get just that. Or give me permission to buy a bbq. As long as I went and got it and she didn't have to help. Unlike most women, I would have to remind her of our anniversary, etc. Always selfish. Always giving just enough to get what she wanted. 

And I let her. Shame on me.
**********************************************

Yeah I'm tech delayed.....shoot me! But those words were VERY similar to my ex. In her defense, my undergrad was in education / history so dates were easy for me. But I know some females who remember the first time their H called them, asked them out, etc....and no they were not math majors.

Speaking of urologists LOL....my new gal works at one. She told me on the phone her job was to play with penises all day....I rolled in the floor! But seeing the sunlight after so long, is awesome isn't it? I'm a bit older than you but it feels the same I would guess. It's weird you didn't think there was life outside ex and now.....it's hard to imagine going back.

Have more to add but I may PM it to you.....(young females may be present LOL)


----------



## Conrad

Chuck,

Of course, you know that all or nothing black/white thinking is a cardinal symptom of the personality disordered.


----------



## zillard

Well no date for Z tonight. She cancelled at the last minute. 

Tiger - I need to help out a friend who is depressed and in a bad spot. Maybe it's just not in the cards for us.

Z - Sorry to hear that. Was planning on picking you up at 7. I understand being there for a friend though.

T - Yes. It's really bad.

Z - Well if I was down I'd want someone like you around too. I hope you can cheer up your friend. I'm free for lunch tomorrow if you're still interested.

---

Time to go out with a new guy friend who's been hitting me up today.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Well no date for Z tonight. She cancelled at the last minute.
> 
> Tiger - I need to help out a friend who is depressed and in a bad spot. Maybe it's just not in the cards for us.
> 
> Z - Sorry to hear that. Was planning on picking you up at 7. I understand being there for a friend though.
> 
> T - Yes. It's really bad.
> 
> Z - Well if I was down I'd want someone like you around too. I hope you can cheer up your friend. I'm free for lunch tomorrow if you're still interested.
> 
> ---
> 
> Time to go out with a new guy friend who's been hitting me up today.


FYI - that should be your last invite to her, if not accepted.


----------



## zillard

Right. I've made it clear I'm interested. Nothing else to do but respond. No prodding. No needing. Meanwhile I have a new wingman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

What were the names of the guys from that Top Gun movie?


----------



## zillard

Mav and goose. She's definitely lost that lovenfeelin
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Mav and goose. She's definitely lost that lovenfeelin
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When someone wants to be with you, you don't have to guess.


----------



## Chuck71

Conrad-Indeed I do. I hope she eventually seeks help but that is not my eagle any longer. It would be great if she did but with it being on her own....that may not happen. As for our son....be glad to do intervention...only way he can be shown the truth. His mother enables him to use as does his real father. To him....he doesn't have a problem. Sadly mistaken.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> When someone wants to be with you, you don't have to guess.


_"Nothing takes the taste out of peanut butter quite like unrequited love."_ *- Charlie Brown*


Pb.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> When someone wants to be with you, you don't have to guess.


This is true. 

TigerGirl30 (from my hometown - the one I've been having really good conversations with frequently) is obviously interested.

She wants to meet up in Vegas next month to do a 5K run together. I'm no runner, but have been doing three 1/2mile speed walks daily in lieu of smoke breaks. It's time to pick up some running shoes and go further and faster. Really it's the next logical step. I did do track for a while in high school and enjoyed it but haven't run since. 

This is the kind of thing I'm looking for - even if it does remain a friendship. Her positive energy and passion inspires me to push myself further. Not to impress, but because I know I will enjoy it. 

Working out the logistics with X and D7 will be challenging, but really just a blip compared to what I've dealt with already.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> She wants to meet up in Vegas next month to do a 5K run together. I'm no runner, but have been doing three 1/2mile speed walks daily in lieu of smoke breaks. It's time to pick up some running shoes and go further and faster. Really it's the next logical step. I did do track for a while in high school and enjoyed it but haven't run since.


I didn't follow the plan exactly, but this... C25K: Couch to 5K ...helped me a lot when I was training up for my first triathlon last year.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> This is true.
> 
> TigerGirl30 (from my hometown - the one I've been having really good conversations with frequently) is obviously interested.
> 
> She wants to meet up in Vegas next month to do a 5K run together. I'm no runner, but have been doing three 1/2mile speed walks daily in lieu of smoke breaks. It's time to pick up some running shoes and go further and faster. Really it's the next logical step. I did do track for a while in high school and enjoyed it but haven't run since.
> 
> This is the kind of thing I'm looking for - even if it does remain a friendship. Her positive energy and passion inspires me to push myself further. Not to impress, but because I know I will enjoy it.
> 
> Working out the logistics with X and D7 will be challenging, but really just a blip compared to what I've dealt with already.


Full speed ahead.

Live your life.

But, always be ready for "that" phone call.


----------



## zillard

Just bought some awesome running shoes. Time to kick up some dust and leave the past behind me!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## spun

zillard said:


> Just bought some awesome running shoes. Time to kick up some dust and leave the past behind me!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Run, Forrest run!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

So X 'says' she wants to be a better mother, spend more time with D7, and prove herself to me in order to keep me from moving.

Thursday I sent her the following email:

D7 has Spring Break coming up. 

March 11-18th No School
March 29th No School

The parenting plan has you listed for Spring Break on odd years. That does not apply to the 29th but want to keep you informed in case you want her the night of the 28th. Please let me know what you would like to do.

Thank you.
---

So far no response. I'm curious to see what happens. She likely forgot all about Spring Break and will have to use PTO to take D7 for that week. If she actually is trying to change jobs that should be a no brainer. Use up the PTO before leaving. If trying to change shifts, similar story - D7 should be priority.

Excellent opportunity to back up words with action.


----------



## Conrad

What do you expect?


----------



## zillard

It would be nice to receive a simple response stating that she'll take D7 those days.

I expect not much leading up to this, then the closer it gets to go time receiving hoo and haa about work this and work that, we need to work with each other (meaning me subsidizing her responsibilities), etc.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> It would be nice to receive a simple response stating that she'll take D7 those days.
> 
> I expect not much leading up to this, then the closer it gets to go time receiving hoo and haa about work this and work that, we need to work with each other (meaning me subsidizing her responsibilities), etc.


What is your plan to deal with it?


----------



## zillard

Z- I'm not ok with deviating from the parenting plan without a good reason.

X - (&@#(^)&$)&#$)*#@

Z - I'm sorry you feel that way. I was considerate and sent a reminder 2 weeks early.

As for the 29th - it's not in the parenting plan so I'll gladly have D7 if X doesn't take advantage of the extra day.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Z- I'm not ok with deviating from the parenting plan without a good reason.
> 
> X - (&@#(^)&$)&#$)*#@
> 
> Z - I'm sorry you feel that way. I was considerate and sent a reminder 2 weeks early.
> 
> As for the 29th - it's not in the parenting plan so I'll gladly have D7 if X doesn't take advantage of the extra day.


Stay the course

Don't forget, "I'm not ok with profanity"


----------



## zillard

Oi. She dropped off D7 after taking her to the Renaissance Festival today. They were both in excellent spirits, which is good. 

X had a flower headband thingy on and gypsy dangly jingle things - much like a belly dancer. Things she knows I find attractive and she bought for D7, but wore herself. Mentioned spilling soda in her lap so now she has wet undies, which she mentioned at least 3 times. Mentioned me no longer having a butt. All of which I ignored by talking to D7 about her day. 

When she was saying goodbye to D7, daughter told her she didn't want her to leave and wanted her to stay here tonight (this is a first). 

Z - D7, mom does not live here anymore.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Oi. She dropped off D7 after taking her to the Renaissance Festival today. They were both in excellent spirits, which is good.
> 
> X had a flower headband thingy on and gypsy dangly jingle things - much like a belly dancer. Things she knows I find attractive and she bought for D7, but wore herself. Mentioned spilling soda in her lap so now she has wet undies, which she mentioned at least 3 times. Mentioned me no longer having a butt. All of which I ignored by talking to D7 about her day.
> 
> When she was saying goodbye to D7, daughter told her she didn't want her to leave and wanted her to stay here tonight (this is a first).
> 
> Z - D7, mom does not live here anymore.


You see where this is headed.

Stay the course.

But, only if you want it.

In the meantime, have fun.


----------



## zillard

One of the first dates we ever had was a day at that festival. It was excellent and I still cherish it to this day. 

I have no doubts that she is still attracted to me. I have no doubts that I am still attracted to her. But that is not enough. 

I will not rugsweep and she is not ready to hold herself accountable. 

I have found happiness and will have fun without her. What will happen in the future? I don't know. 

I'm finally ok with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch

Haha wet panties Really. Z your like 
Iron man. Everyone knows my resolve isn't
quite as strong
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

GutPunch said:


> Haha wet panties Really. Z your like
> Iron man. Everyone knows my resolve isn't
> quite as strong
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It needs to be.

Keep those cards and letters coming


----------



## zillard

GutPunch said:


> Haha wet panties Really. Z your like
> Iron man. Everyone knows my resolve isn't
> quite as strong
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't get me wrong GP. When she bent over I absolutely fantasized about sending D7 too bed, yanking down that hippy skirt and... Well, y'know. 

But now is not the time... and may never be again. 

I don't know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Don't get me wrong GP. When she bent over I absolutely fantasized about sending D7 too bed, yanking down that hippy skirt and... Well, y'know.
> 
> But now is not the time... and may never be again.
> 
> I don't know.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Been there - done that.

Stay the course.

She will let you know.

When she does, it will be for keeps.


----------



## Garry2012

Z...That is exactly why i almost cant even look at X anymore. I dont want vision and desires to cross my mind that I dont want there anymore.


----------



## Chuck71

Z-She is trying but not in the manner you desire. The call Conrad speaks of......it will come when you least expect it. Been there....it's like a switch they sense when you are at the point of no return. Then the phone rings. Be ready.


----------



## Garry2012

Z...I have been saying you are a little ahead of me, and I thought of your situation this weekend. Friday was my oldest boys birthday. I had taken him to the store on Thursday night to pick some video games he wanted. So, Friday AM...X tells me where he wants to eat..I told her I knew, I already discussed it with him. She says she is going to get him a gift certificate. So, we celebrate that night...she has nothing...gives him an IOU. Yesterday, he asks her for the gift card, she tells him she doesnt have it yet. Sound familiar? I thought of your Bday story.


----------



## staystrong

Master of your domain.


----------



## hope4family

I understand how you feel Z. As my ex dresses and wears things that I told her I like or would like. It does more to upset me then to attract me at this point. 

I do dislike the fact that I consider my ex attractive. My solace, is that there are a lot of beautiful people in the world. I also know the hurt she is capable of and what's beneath the looks. 

As many good memories, as attractive as I find her on the outside, I simply won't fall for those ploys. It's nice to read someone feels the same way, but still say "no".


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> So, Friday AM...X tells me where he wants to eat..I told her I knew, I already discussed it with him. She says she is going to get him a gift certificate. So, we celebrate that night...she has nothing...gives him an IOU. Yesterday, he asks her for the gift card, she tells him she doesnt have it yet. Sound familiar? I thought of your Bday story.


Telling everybody about her priorities... through inaction. 



hope4family said:


> I understand how you feel Z. As my ex dresses and wears things that I told her I like or would like. It does more to upset me then to attract me at this point.
> 
> I do dislike the fact that I consider my ex attractive. My solace, is that there are a lot of beautiful people in the world. I also know the hurt she is capable of and what's beneath the looks.
> 
> As many good memories, as attractive as I find her on the outside, I simply won't fall for those ploys. It's nice to read someone feels the same way, but still say "no".


She doesn't want to be the "commodity" that is only there to "cook clean and fvck". Then stop cooking me sauce and dressing sexy to attract me.


----------



## Chuck71

My ex joined two other dating sites (via bank statement). In all honestly...she looks hideous now. I may have got off lucky there. Yet I am enjoying the place I am in with new gal. There is life after the fall. Keep repeating.....journey over destination.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Telling everybody about her priorities... through inaction.
> 
> 
> 
> She doesn't want to be the "commodity" that is only there to "cook clean and fvck". Then stop cooking me sauce and dressing sexy to attract me.


It's a pretty good deal if someone else pays the bills.

Alas, such wisdom is lost on her.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> It's a pretty good deal if someone else pays the bills.
> 
> Alas, such wisdom is lost on her.


Agreed x10.

I'm a career oriented chick, but offer me a cook, clean & fvck deal...I'll take it.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> Agreed x10.
> 
> I'm a career oriented chick, but offer me a cook, clean & fvck deal...I'll take it.


So... uh....


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> Agreed x10.
> 
> I'm a career oriented chick, but offer me a cook, clean & fvck deal...I'll take it.


From my hard-won experience, it's difficult to even get 1 out of 3.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> From my hard-won experience, it's difficult to even get 1 out of 3.


Dear Conrad, 

Here's where I disagree with you. You haven't met me.


----------



## hope4family

HappyKaty said:


> Dear Conrad,
> 
> Here's where I disagree with you. You haven't met me.


You need to start a website where women can stand up and declare this.  Eliminates the guesswork for us hardworking males.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> From my hard-won experience, it's difficult to even get 1 out of 3.


Funny thing is - the deal worked out for nearly a decade (not that I saw it as such, mind you). Only when she went back to work (supplemental) and I did breadwinning + everything but laundry did it become a problem for her. 

Loss of respect. Because I allowed it.


----------



## HappyKaty

hope4family said:


> You need to start a website where women can stand up and declare this.  Eliminates the guesswork for us hardworking males.


Let me tell you a secret. I've always been a business woman, hence my position, but I'm a wife before that. My motto is: "Never let your husband leave home hungry or horny." 

Now, I'm not sure what happened, but I never relinquished my womanly duties, nor will I.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Funny thing is - the deal worked out for nearly a decade (not that I saw it as such, mind you). Only when she went back to work (supplemental) and I did breadwinning + everything but laundry did it become a problem for her.
> 
> Loss of respect. Because I allowed it.


Women do NOT want men to do the house work.


----------



## ReGroup

Let me chime in - my wife and I shared an apartment and we divided rooms for cleaning purposes... We both worked full time and raised our daughters - I wasn't trying to score points, just helping keep the apartment clean... I didn't see anything wrong in doing so.

Thoughts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

HappyKaty said:


> Women do NOT want men to do the house work.


Again...you need an oathe keepers website. Your husband must have been a lunatic. 

Been wanting to use that word recently...lunatic. Such a fun word.


----------



## zillard

I never did for years. I did outside, grocery shopping and garage. I would help in the kitchen, but it wasn't up to her standards so she'd usually take over (trick I learned as a teenager). 

After she started her swing shift job, she slacked on it all. I told myself if I didn't do it, it wouldn't get done. 

Wrong. I should have told myself if I don't put my foot down, it's my own dam fault.


----------



## HappyKaty

I'm southern, which equals different, but...

Women are raised to take care of the house. A man may feel the need to clean the room, but I promise you the woman will re-clean it. It's what we know, what we do, what we take pride in. 

Twenty bucks says an independent "TAM'er" will disagree.

The bottom line is, don't waste your time on housework, men. Your wife will redo it...and enjoy it.


----------



## ReGroup

My wife never withheld sex and enjoyed it but Much more came with that package.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

HK, god bless your heart. When my wife was left to do the house chores on her own... Hell would await me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HappyKaty

ReGroup said:


> HK, god bless your heart. When my wife was left to do the house chores on her own... Hell would await me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Find a woman, then.


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> Let me chime in - my wife and I shared an apartment and we divided rooms for cleaning purposes... We both worked full time and raised our daughters - I wasn't trying to score points, just helping keep the apartment clean... I didn't see anything wrong in doing so.
> 
> Thoughts?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No man ever looked more attractive to his wife by how well he pushed a vacuum.


----------



## familyfirst09

Found your thread, more reading for me 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> Well no date for Z tonight. She cancelled at the last minute.
> 
> Tiger - I need to help out a friend who is depressed and in a bad spot. Maybe it's just not in the cards for us.
> 
> Z - Sorry to hear that. Was planning on picking you up at 7. I understand being there for a friend though.
> 
> T - Yes. It's really bad.
> 
> Z - Well if I was down I'd want someone like you around too. I hope you can cheer up your friend. I'm free for lunch tomorrow if you're still interested.
> 
> ---
> 
> Time to go out with a new guy friend who's been hitting me up today.


Sorry, hun. Glad you handle it so well, hope you had fun with your new wingman! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> Found your thread, more reading for me


Glad to see you found me. Hope you enjoy the reading.


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> Sorry, hun. Glad you handle it so well, hope you had fun with your new wingman!


I did. He's got a recent fling who wants to hook me up with her coworker. 

Take note men... finding new male friends is just as or more beneficial than picking up random skirts at the bar.


----------



## zillard

As expected (she has D7 for spring break per parenting schedule):

X - Hmmm, I didn't realize spring break was coming up so fast. I really doubt I will be able to take the whole week off. Would it be okay if I try to get some days off, like maybe the 14th, 15th and 18th? I can submit a pto request tomorrow.

Z - I was courteous and sent you a reminder last week. Please see boundaries #2 and #4.

----

2 - if you need something ask. Ask means needing to use a question mark and involves a "you". Could you, would you, will you, can you, do you. 

4 - if need to change, it means needing something - refer back to #2.


----------



## HappyKaty

I just can't understand how a mother doesn't know her kid's school schedule.


----------



## zillard

Wouldn't it be cool if there was a big huge button labeled "calendar" on the school website?


----------



## zillard

I dropped off a check for her portion of the tax return on Saturday. It's already been cashed and cleared. 

Priorities.


----------



## Chuck71

a mother knows when their kid poop from 58 miles away. she is as lost as 'the land of the lost'. mom, near 70, knows me without a word. motherhood 101


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I dropped off a check for her portion of the tax return on Saturday. It's already been cashed and cleared.
> 
> Priorities.


She's in survival mode.

Completely in her own head.

Everything - 100% of everything - only about her


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> She's in survival mode.
> 
> Completely in her own head.
> 
> Everything - 100% of everything - only about her


Yep. She's failing the test. Words and actions don't match. 

She talks big, and cries about trying so hard and her daughter being her life. But observing I notice she says things like "it would be too hard on *me* for my daughter to be so far away". 

It's about her feelings, not D7. While we are still here and relatively close she doesn't feel that bad. So the effort to be involved isn't there. So wrapped up in her own head that she doesn't realize spring break is in the spring. She probably had not looked at the parenting plan until I sent that email. 

If then.


----------



## ReGroup

She probably won't realize anything until you guys leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

HAHA. Reminds me I sent my parent plan to my ex to sign right away over a month ago. 

Still hasn't signed it. Just like all the other paperwork. 

"It will only take a couple months" - S2bxw on divorce. *sigh*


----------



## zillard

I wonder what she has planned for the summer. She's scheduled to have D7 the majority of it. 

^ I don't really


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I wonder what she has planned for the summer. She's scheduled to have D7 the majority of it.
> 
> ^ I don't really


People who have no plan past Saturday have a hard time focusing on summer childcare issues.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> People who have no plan past Saturday have a hard time focusing on summer childcare issues.


_“If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.”_ *- Lewis Carroll*


Pb.


----------



## Garry2012

So is lack of planning/foresight part of the fog? Me and my friends are always amazed at how much my STBXW cant see tomorrow.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> So is lack of planning/foresight part of the fog? Me and my friends are always amazed at how much my STBXW cant see tomorrow.


When you are completely enveloped in emotions you aren't thinking. 

You can not feel tomorrow.


----------



## Garry2012

They just seem so lost really...so focused on themselves they dont see anything else. I guess thats why they call it a fog.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> When you are completely enveloped in emotions you aren't thinking.
> 
> You can not feel tomorrow.


It reminds me a little of one of my dogs... He's a AKC certified, pure bred German Shepherd. He had been confined and abused and beaten and neglected the first year of his life by an owner who only interested in breeding him for money.

He could have been such a fantastically intelligent dog, but he's always been too terrified of everything to think.


Pb.


----------



## ReGroup

My wife would call and text me in the middle of the night while in The Fog to make sure I wasn't seeing someone - she would have nightmares I had met someone.

Treacherous
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

ReGroup said:


> My wife would call and text me in the middle of the night while in The Fog to make sure I wasn't seeing someone - she would have nightmares I had met someone.
> 
> Treacherous
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


During the fog? I worry sometimes i might get that when she exits the fog...she actually came close to doing this when we dated. She doesnt show to care at all while in the fog.


----------



## zillard

I get texts on Saturday nights like clockwork. Sometimes I respond, but on Sunday.


----------



## hope4family

I got random phone calls this weekend. Of course, I knew she was out of town. She does like butt dialing me while she party's or has friends over, or whatever it is she is doing.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> When you are completely enveloped in emotions you aren't thinking.
> 
> You can not feel tomorrow.


Here's the caveat.

You also aren't able to see the people that are taking care of business on your behalf today!

And, we thought all that fixing would get 'em to love us.

They never even saw it.


----------



## zillard

X - Will you take D7 for spring break? I'm going to request the PTO I told you about. 

Z - I have to work those days. I don't feel it is fair to D7 or me. I will take her in the evenings if you register her for spring camp at school.


----------



## ReGroup

And she wants you two to stay within her living vicinity?

She keeps proving otherwise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

She does not respect my time.
She does not respect my work-at-home job (that provided for her).
She does not prioritize D7.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> She does not respect my time.
> She does not respect my work-at-home job (that provided for her).
> She does not prioritize D7.


A great example of not listening to what they say, but watching what they actually do.


----------



## zillard

> I'm trying very hard to abide by the boundaries. Please recognize that. Also please remember that it takes more than two weeks notice to get time off from work. I had to fight to get time for your parents' anniversary, and I still didn't get the days I requested several weeks in advance.
> 
> I would love to have her for the entire break, but I have to work with the parameters I'm given. That means I need 2 weeks+ notice to take days off.
> 
> I'm sorry I didn't follow the boundaries, this is all very new to me and I'm honestly trying my best. Speaking to you while following "script" is very different from what I've done for the last decade. It will take me a bit of time to fall into the routine. Please understand that. All of this is very new and I'm trying very hard to please you. My email was an attempt at me trying to ask you...but it didn't follow your formula, so I failed there.
> 
> I will sign D7 up for the camp. I don't know if I can get the days off that I requested. I won't know for a day or two.
> 
> Can you please give me something in writing that says you will consider staying in state with D7 if I switch to days? The boss lady says she needs something like that to give to HR to get me onto day shift.
> 
> Thank you,
> X


----------



## zillard

Thinking about this response:

Z - It is not my responsibility to remind you. 

Prove to me, through action, by the end of March that you are ready to be more involved in D7s life and I'll consider staying in state. 

Let me know how your plan would be beneficial to everyone re: parenting time, school arrangements, location, etc.


----------



## GutPunch

Something in writing. I don't like the sound of that. You got yourself a pickle. The old lose lose situation. 

Maybe you could get something in writing stating that she will place her daughter's needs ahead of her own.


----------



## Chuck71

Z-The cashing the tax check....and the not thinking past tomorrow.....EXACTLY what I saw. In the beginning.....-let's spend time with our friends....like we did when we first met-. Oh I remember those days....not too long into it you flashed your insecurities. I was 26.....missed that red flag.

Fast forward.....joining a speed dating site (WTF is that?)....Zoosk....Christian (cough) Mingle.....OurTime....for a 47 y/o who chain smokes....she sure is running fast. It is a sure bet she is numb inside. New gal seems too good to be true (even with BS at full mast) but it's a work in progress. Maybe my main drawback from everything is delaying the falling part. It's a process and I am fighting it. 

As my luck goes, the moment I fall, I will get that call. May be why I refuse to give ex any of my numbers. You can only get so touchy in emails. You can not deny the inevitable but you can plan and prepare for it.


----------



## Chuck71

In writing.....? she is completely 110% full of sh!t. That is 2AM co-worker lawyering at it's best


----------



## HappyKaty

Z, don't 'write' anything. She's full of sh1t. If her boss needs something that bad, X would just write it, herself.


----------



## zillard

yeah, She already has an email with me saying prove it and I'll consider it. 

If she does need something in writing she probably doesn't want to use it because in order to get the context she'd also have to show the "I'm not fvcking around" part too.


----------



## HappyKaty

In the end, if she wants her daughter to remain local, she will find a way to make that work.

What makes me think she's completely full of sh1t, is the fact that she still hasn't made it work.


----------



## Chuck71

I will bet, she will write it and forge your signature. Trust me....it's probably been done before. If it is for HR, she will do it. If it is for lawyer, I would doubt it. But......observe her crazy train spin cycle.


----------



## Pbartender

Because I need the practice, let's observe...



zillard said:


> I'm trying very hard to abide by the boundaries. Please recognize that. Also please remember that it takes more than two weeks notice to get time off from work. I had to fight to get time for your parents' anniversary, and I still didn't get the days I requested several weeks in advance.
> 
> I would love to have her for the entire break, but I have to work with the parameters I'm given. That means I need 2 weeks+ notice to take days off.
> 
> I'm sorry I didn't follow the boundaries, this is all very new to me and I'm honestly trying my best. Speaking to you while following "script" is very different from what I've done for the last decade. It will take me a bit of time to fall into the routine. Please understand that. All of this is very new and I'm trying very hard to please you. My email was an attempt at me trying to ask you...but it didn't follow your formula, so I failed there.
> 
> I will sign D7 up for the camp. I don't know if I can get the days off that I requested. I won't know for a day or two.
> 
> Can you please give me something in writing that says you will consider staying in state with D7 if I switch to days? The boss lady says she needs something like that to give to HR to get me onto day shift.
> 
> Thank you,
> X


She didn't plan ahead for a potential conflict between her work schedule and D7's custody schedule.

Then, when that causes a problem, she turns to you to solve it for her, and doesn't follow the simple instructions for asking something from you, nor for for changing plans with D7.

Finally, she tries to shift the blame for both mistakes...

"It's not my fault I didn't plan ahead for Spring Break... It's a problem with the company's policy for requesting paid time off."

"It's not my fault I didn't respect your clearly stated boundaries... You made all these new rules, and I'm not used to them yet."

My response would likely be: "Your work schedule is not my responsibility."

With regards to the written note for HR... I'd probably reply with a simple cut and paste (or just forward it to her) of the email in which you already mention it. Or, print that email out, sign it, and send it to her HR.


Pb.


----------



## HappyKaty

Chuck71 said:


> I will bet, she will write it and forge your signature.


Please believe, if it was the only way to keep my kid near me, I would, too. In fact, I never would've asked Z to do it. I would've just taken care of it, myself.


----------



## Chuck71

HK-Exactly! And it shadows his ex's hand. Moms do anything for their children, and I mean anything. LOL ask mom and all the parent-teacher conferences (yeah like that's a shock ADHD Chuck 8>)

PB-Do you still have the Ger Shep? That was really sad....I take great pride in caring for those. Too bad my ex took it to the level of A&E Animal Hording


----------



## Pbartender

Chuck71 said:


> PB-Do you still have the Ger Shep? That was really sad....I take great pride in caring for those. Too bad my ex took it to the level of A&E Animal Hording


Yep... Still have him. He'll probably go stay with STBXW, though, when we split. When we got him, he "imprinted" on her, and either something about me reminds him of his former owner or he acutely senses her feelings toward me... In the five years we've had him, he's never willingly come within 3 feet of me.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> Speaking to you while following "script" is very different from what I've done for the last decade.


Showing you respect and asking politely for help is very different from what I've done for the last decade.



zillard said:


> It will take me a bit of time to fall into the routine. Please understand that.


Please be flexible with your boundaries because they are hard for me. 



zillard said:


> All of this is very new and I'm trying very hard to please you.


I'm trying to manipulate you to get what I want.


----------



## Chuck71

Most dogs cross gender relations aka Siggy F. My ex's two inside dogs F ran to me, the two M ran to her. The other....ahhh bless his heart....pound puppy from 2002.....he acts like a pothead.


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## Chuck71

Z-Send ex a link to this post LOL


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## zillard

I'm probably going to run with PB and send:

Your work schedule is not my responsibility. We will discuss further in our session tomorrow.

To which I will bring printouts. They show my progress with boundaries, X's failure to respect them, and her codependent behavior. 

I told her in a previous session - I don't want her to say or do anything to try and please me. I want honesty about what is going on inside her and for her to show me that she is committed to D7.


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## turnera

I'm going to play devil's advocate only because I've been known to forget that spring break is coming up. In fact, many times. And I am a VERY involved mom. The days just blur together and I don't think about that stuff. I'm not excusing her, just saying that failure to remember it was coming up doesn't give her a ticket to hell.


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## Chuck71

walls closing in.....air.....air.....please....

mind can not live without body

body can not live without mind


----------



## hope4family

turnera said:


> I'm going to play devil's advocate only because I've been known to forget that spring break is coming up. In fact, many times. And I am a VERY involved mom. The days just blur together and I don't think about that stuff. I'm not excusing her, just saying that failure to remember it was coming up doesn't give her a ticket to hell.


An excellent point that I think needs to be made. 

Unfortunately, his ex is not in a phase of life for this to just pass her by.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> I'm going to play devil's advocate only because I've been known to forget that spring break is coming up. In fact, many times. And I am a VERY involved mom. The days just blur together and I don't think about that stuff. I'm not excusing her, just saying that failure to remember it was coming up doesn't give her a ticket to hell.


No, it doesn't. 

She pleaded for a chance to prove herself. I gave her six weeks to do so. We are half way through that period and this is what we have:

Good:
Has shown up for joint sessions
Has called to say goodnight consistently
Took D7 to the Renaissance Festival. 
Has been more polite than usual. 
Requested some days off
Agreed to register for Spring Camp
Allegedly applied for other jobs
Allegedly is trying to change shifts

Bad:
Failed to acquire bday gifts she agreed to get
Forgot cupcakes for the bday party
Was almost 1.5 hrs late to the zoo on her bday
Tried to return D7 a day early on bday weekend
Yelled, slammed doors and kicked me out of apt in front of D7
Lost medicine I dropped off for D7
Forgot about spring break


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## turnera

I understand. I'm just saying don't use the 'you forgot spring break' as your main excuse that she's not stepping up, because it's not strong enough of an argument.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> No, it doesn't.
> 
> She pleaded for a chance to prove herself. I gave her six weeks to do so. We are half way through that period and this is what we have:
> 
> Good:
> Has shown up for joint sessions
> Has called to say goodnight consistently
> Took D7 to the Renaissance Festival.
> Has been more polite than usual.
> Requested some days off
> Agreed to register for Spring Camp
> Allegedly applied for other jobs
> Allegedly is trying to change shifts
> 
> Bad:
> Failed to acquire bday gifts she agreed to get
> Forgot cupcakes for the bday party
> Was almost 1.5 hrs late to the zoo on her bday
> Tried to return D7 a day early on bday weekend
> Yelled, slammed doors and kicked me out of apt in front of D7
> Lost medicine I dropped off for D7
> Forgot about spring break


I'd give that a "4" on a scale of 1-10


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Agreed to register for Spring Camp
> Allegedly applied for other jobs
> Allegedly is trying to change shifts


I'm not sure I'd count these as "Good" until (unless) you actually saw them happen... Right now, those three are all talk and no discernible action.


Pb.


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## familyfirst09

Maybe I missed something...but what happens when she "passes" or "fails"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> I understand. I'm just saying don't use the 'you forgot spring break' as your main excuse that she's not stepping up, because it's not strong enough of an argument.


Correct. It is not about the incident. It is about the pattern. 

I am not ok with the expectation that I will continue to pick up her slack. So I need to see A. less slack and B. accountability when slack does occur.

And I need to stop automatically picking up her slack. As long as I do, it will be there.


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> Maybe I missed something...but what happens when she "passes" or "fails"?


I will or will not consider staying in state with D7.


----------



## familyfirst09

Don't you need her permission to leave state?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> Don't you need her permission to leave state?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I already have it. Signed and filed. The signed again, notarized, filed and approved by judge. 

Now she wants take backs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

Ahhhh......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Garry2012

So, she gave you full custody while in the fog? Or did you win it through the court?


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## zillard

After she chose divorce, before I filed, I presented my case to her that it would be best for D7 and I to move where we have a support system. X agreed. I drew up papers, had lawyer review, we reviewed together and signed. I filed. Repeated that process again the next month. Me as primary caregiver with D7 out of state for school year, minus some vacation. She gets summers minus some vacation. Alternating holidays.

She did not challenge in court during the 60 day wait period.


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## Garry2012

wow...nice


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## turnera

Nice, but poor daughter.


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## Garry2012

Well she has Dad taking care with no big battle, but as always the kids pay the biggest price in all this.


----------



## K.C.

turnera said:


> Nice, but poor daughter.


Definitely but at least this way she ended up with the parent that consistently gives a damn.

Could have been much worst.


----------



## zillard

RE: Spring Camp at the school

X - Also, would you like her enrolled in a full day 6:30a-6p? Or a half day? 

Z - D7 would like full days if she can not spend time with you. I'm fine with that.

----

This morning my D7 looked at the calendar and saw spring break marked. She automatically assumed that it was mom time as there is no school. I had to tell her that her mom has to work. She asked if her mom would take time off work to spend time with her. I told her she is trying. 

I told her about the spring camp - fun activities but no class (basically day care) and she did express excitement about it. "It will be like at moms... but just without mom".


----------



## HappyKaty

What a sweet girl.


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## turnera

K.C. said:


> Definitely but at least this way she ended up with the parent that consistently gives a damn.
> 
> Could have been much worst.


 QFT.


----------



## zillard

So yesterday I responded to X's email about her work schedule, putting things in writing for her boss, etc. 

Z - Your work schedule is not my responsibility. We can discuss further in our joint session tomorrow. 

No response. 

This morning at the child psych, X did not show up. 20 minutes in the C called her cell asking where she was - wanted to keep me out of it. No answer, so she left a voicemail. 

We went over the email/text printout that I had and she said in made excellent decisions in how to respond. She does see Spring Break as a big issue - and also X's response to me. C said if anything X should be giving me 2 weeks notice so I can consider PTO if she can not take D7 on her scheduled time. 

She asked me how I felt about putting things in writing. I said I am not ok with it and skeptical. I acknowledge that my skepticism is likely amplified due to my current trust issues but she already has an email and really shouldn't be putting this back on me. 

She agreed with me and suggested I approach the conversation by telling X that we had a joint session scheduled and I informed her I wanted to talk it over there but she didn't show, so the C recommended we table that discussion until we can meet with her together again. 

She said in this neutral period where I agreed to give X an opportunity to show her intentions and priorities, it is important to observe. What we both (C and I) are observing is probably a sign. That underlying pattern of unfair expectation and lack of stepping up points to large problems and increasing resentment in the future should I stay. 

While I could vent my anger and frustration in healthy ways, the need to do so should not become part of a lifestyle.

She also told me she thinks that with my progress and new tools that I will be pleasantly surprised with the quality of woman I attract and end up with after this. That was nice to hear.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> So yesterday I responded to X's email about her work schedule, putting things in writing for her boss, etc.
> 
> Z - Your work schedule is not my responsibility. We can discuss further in our joint session tomorrow.
> 
> No response.
> 
> This morning at the child psych, X did not show up. 20 minutes in the C called her cell asking where she was - wanted to keep me out of it. No answer, so she left a voicemail.
> 
> We went over the email/text printout that I had and she said in made excellent decisions in how to respond. She does see Spring Break as a big issue - and also X's response to me. C said if anything X should be giving me 2 weeks notice so I can consider PTO if she can not take Lily on her scheduled time.
> 
> She asked me how I felt about putting things in writing. I said I am not ok with it and skeptical. I acknowledge that my skepticism is likely amplified due to my current trust issues but she already has an email and really shouldn't be putting this back on me.
> 
> She agreed with me and suggested I approach the conversation by telling X that we had a joint session scheduled and I informed her I wanted to talk it over there but she didn't show, so the C recommended we table that discussion until we can meet with her together again.
> 
> She said in this neutral period where I agreed to give X an opportunity to show her intentions and priorities, it is important to observe. What we both are observing is probably a sign. That underlying pattern of unfair expectation and lack of stepping up points to large problems and increasing resentment in the future should I stay.
> 
> While I could vent my anger and frustration in healthy ways, the need to do so should not become part of a lifestyle.
> 
> She also told me she thinks that with my progress and new tools that I will be pleasantly surprised with the quality of woman I attract and end up with after this. That was nice to hear.


Z,

You have a good counselor.

X is still a trainwreck.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah, I can imagine it is nice to hear....good going Z.


----------



## HappyKaty

I agree with your counselor. You'll land a lovely. Annnd, I heart D7's name. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

C also mentioned that X failing to show this morning is another huge red flag (absent the possibility of some unfortunate event). 

This isn't MC for us, it isn't IC for me, it is therapy for D7.


----------



## ReGroup

I hope she is ok.

If she is... I'm sure she'll find an excuse for herself.

Actions are speaking loud and clear: I do care! But only when it conveniences me.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> So yesterday I responded to X's email about her work schedule, putting things in writing for her boss, etc.
> 
> Z - Your work schedule is not my responsibility. We can discuss further in our joint session tomorrow.
> 
> No response.
> 
> This morning at the child psych, X did not show up. 20 minutes in the C called her cell asking where she was - wanted to keep me out of it. No answer, so she left a voicemail.
> 
> We went over the email/text printout that I had and she said in made excellent decisions in how to respond. She does see Spring Break as a big issue - and also X's response to me. C said if anything X should be giving me 2 weeks notice so I can consider PTO if she can not take D7 on her scheduled time.
> 
> She asked me how I felt about putting things in writing. I said I am not ok with it and skeptical. I acknowledge that my skepticism is likely amplified due to my current trust issues but she already has an email and really shouldn't be putting this back on me.
> 
> She agreed with me and suggested I approach the conversation by telling X that we had a joint session scheduled and I informed her I wanted to talk it over there but she didn't show, so the C recommended we table that discussion until we can meet with her together again.
> 
> She said in this neutral period where I agreed to give X an opportunity to show her intentions and priorities, it is important to observe. What we both (C and I) are observing is probably a sign. That underlying pattern of unfair expectation and lack of stepping up points to large problems and increasing resentment in the future should I stay.
> 
> While I could vent my anger and frustration in healthy ways, the need to do so should not become part of a lifestyle.
> 
> She also told me she thinks that with my progress and new tools that I will be pleasantly surprised with the quality of woman I attract and end up with after this. That was nice to hear.


This is what it's going to be like trying to get my STBXW to actually sit down and negotiate out a divorce agreement, isn't it?

:banghead:


Pb.


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> I hope she is ok.
> 
> If she is... I'm sure she'll find an excuse for herself.
> 
> Actions are speaking loud and clear: I do care! But only when it conveniences me.


Me too. I'm still her beneficiary and emergency contact so I would probably know if something happened. 

Due to previous patterns I assume she feels bad about spring break and blowing a good opportunity there, is angry at me for not taking the blame for it, and avoiding talk about the need for something in writing in therapy because it's BS. So she likely drank all night stressing out and chose to skip it and sleep it off, which will provide the convenient excuse of not hearing her alarm. 

But I admit... I don't know.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> C also mentioned that X failing to show this morning is another huge red flag (absent the possibility of some unfortunate event).
> 
> This isn't MC for us, it isn't IC for me, it is therapy for D7.


Huge red flag?

I think I see the jury filing back in.

Hey, but at least she'll get to blame it on you.

So, there's that.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Huge red flag?
> 
> I think I see the jury filing back in.
> 
> Hey, but at least she'll get to blame it on you.
> 
> So, there's that.


4 out of 10 just dropped significantly, yeah. Remove "joint sessions" from the good column and drop it in the bad. 

In other news, I assembled more boxes yesterday and started filling them. Cleaned out a good chunk of the garage and made a stack for garage sale. Then spent a couple hours upping the curb appeal.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> 4 out of 10 just dropped significantly, yeah. Remove "joint sessions" from the good column and drop it in the bad.
> 
> In other news, I assembled more boxes yesterday and started filling them. Cleaned out a good chunk of the garage and made a stack for garage sale. Then spent a couple hours upping the curb appeal.


You realize it's that pesky "follow-through" thing - again.


----------



## zillard

I was previously slacking on the house sale prep. I discussed with the child psych and told her I feel it's part of the grieving. A big act of saying goodbye to the dream I had when we bought the place. 

I feel secure here as it's the first place that has truly been mine. 

It's scary to let that go.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I was previously slacking on the house sale prep. I discussed with the child psych and told her I feel it's part of the grieving. A big act of saying goodbye to the dream I had when we bought the place.
> 
> I feel secure here as it's the first place that has truly been mine.
> 
> It's scary to let that go.


Amen to that.

Totally understood.

When stuff starts disappearing, it's totally real.


----------



## Garry2012

Totally understandable. I am kinda like that with the house to. It feels like my home, and she knows that...which is why she wants me to have it (guilt). Difference with me is I dont associate it with her as much, it was the fourth house we bought. 

Also, since i feel like she has been gone for a while, it feels natural to me to be there with just the kids and me....and base on my current situation, would LOVE to have it just me and the kids lol.

I would assume when my X starts packing up, maybe, just maybe, it will start to get real....still think its just a dream to her.


----------



## zillard

I imagine this feeling probably played a huge part in X's hesitancy and near-refusal to pack her stuff before she left. 

In my arrogance I thought it was about her wanting R. In reality it was probably mostly fear.


----------



## turnera

A wise woman once told me, "it's just a house."


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I imagine this feeling probably played a huge part in X's hesitancy and near-refusal to pack her stuff before she left.
> 
> In my arrogance I thought it was about her wanting R. In reality it was probably mostly fear.


Fear is the reason behind 80% (or more) of human behavior.


----------



## Garry2012

turnera said:


> A wise woman once told me, "it's just a house."


To me it was a home when there was a loving family in it, once that is gone, its a roof with four walls. I try to not call it home anymore...i just call it "the house".


----------



## Chuck71

Z-Just a theory here. With the foot down on texts do you think her drinking is escalating? That just popped in to my head when she missed the C session. Second shift is the perfect one for increased drinking (all three are but seconds hold specific values). She needs two weeks plus to request a day off or change of schedule. It is health care....not Pentagon...and it is her child. Yet she is jealous you 'work at home' and thinks because of this, you can re-arrange your schedule in thirty minutes notice (you may had before everything blew up). The reason I bring up the drinking possibility is the benefit of the child. A spiraling alcoholic thinks they can drive perfectly fine after twelve shots....truth is they just took a back road home and did not hit a tree or ditch. Is there a way you could verify she is still employed?


----------



## Chuck71

Z-I would wish to propose question to you and other readers in lieu of your board traffic. I am cleaning up the house and there are things which were left. Such things as items belonging to her mother, baby pictures of son, baby memorabilia, and "her family" things. When she first left, "I plan on picking this and that up next time we rotate the dogs." That is roughly a month ago. I do not care to temporarily keep them but I am not a storage unit unless she wishes to pay $75 a month (yeah...if creditors can't squeeze her....good luck). I asked her when she intends to but she is avoiding the question....even though the emails continue to come in on other things. I guess the reason I am seeking outside thoughts is, it is difficult to clean the house up while wondering wtf to do with things which honestly, mean nothing to me.

Sentimental Chuck-Politely store them somewhere out of reach the best you can and allow 90 days.

IDGAF Chuck-Toss 'em....if they were important, she'd have took em.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Z-Just a theory here. With the foot down on texts do you think her drinking is escalating? That just popped in to my head when she missed the C session. Second shift is the perfect one for increased drinking (all three are but seconds hold specific values). She needs two weeks plus to request a day off or change of schedule. It is health care....not Pentagon...and it is her child. Yet she is jealous you 'work at home' and thinks because of this, you can re-arrange your schedule in thirty minutes notice (you may had before everything blew up). The reason I bring up the drinking possibility is the benefit of the child. A spiraling alcoholic thinks they can drive perfectly fine after twelve shots....truth is they just took a back road home and did not hit a tree or ditch. Is there a way you could verify she is still employed?


If her boss' boss pulled her into her office because she heard about her situation and empathizes, and offered to try to cut through red tape to change her to days - "I need a week off to reconnect with my child" should not be an issue. She claimed earlier she has plenty of PTO saved up. 

She splurged at the Ren Fest last weekend and bought D7 a bunch of stuff, so she still should be employed. 

For drinking, she can't be going out much ($$). Her work friends typically drink more at each others' apartments (verified) than out. Now that she is so close to work and the older one in the group, nicer furniture, freshly single, they are probably all drinking at her apt a lot more (confirmed by the multiple brands of cigarettes in the 2 overflowing ashtrays on her porch).


----------



## Conrad

Boxed up in a deep corner of your basement or the attic.

If no movement in 6 months, into the garbage.


----------



## zillard

As I sort through the house and find things I make a stack inside the front door. When she comes over to drop off D7 she grabs them.


----------



## hope4family

I just found several boxes of my ex's stuff that I guess she wanted me to donate. 

Into the trash it went.


----------



## turnera

If it's stuff you're uncomfortable throwing away, move it all to a storage facility and pay the first month's rent - mail her the key and the address and say she has til the end of the month to pick it up or they own it.


----------



## Chuck71

Z-What is your ex's action plan if she and her buddies are all drinking at her place and daughter gets sick, falls, or anything which requires medical attention?


----------



## Garry2012

yeah, i will have this issue. She has boxes of family lineage..i cant throw that away....but i could put it in a storage unit and toss her the key...great idea.


----------



## Garry2012

Chuck71 said:


> Z-What is your ex's action plan if she and her buddies are all drinking at her place and daughter gets sick, falls, or anything which requires medical attention?


Text/call Z


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Z-What is your ex's action plan if she and her buddies are all drinking at her place and daughter gets sick, falls, or anything which requires medical attention?


As far as I know she doesn't have people over when D7 is there. 

I don't ask, but D7 has mentioned the times where X's girlfriend has dropped by to pick up something, etc. She also told me about a guy they ran into at the Ren Fest who she "was shy about". But she said he wasn't with them long.


----------



## Chuck71

Granted calling Z would be the best thing to do but when you throw in the fact of pride......it is like a teenager in a bad spot.....the last person you want you call is your parents. Recently, Z has had to treat ex like a teenage child


----------



## zillard

I saw a glimpse of this already. When she got a flat on the freeway she called posOM and an old BF before finally calling me in tears.

In a D7 medical situation she would likely call an ambulance before me. That way she would never need to admit that she was drunk. But try to get me to pay the bill.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I saw a glimpse of this already. When she got a flat on the freeway she called posOM and an old BF before finally calling me in tears.
> 
> In a D7 medical situation she would likely call an ambulance before me. That way she would never need to admit that she was drunk. But try to get me to pay the bill.


posOM didn't ride to the rescue?

Who would have thought?


----------



## zillard

X - My alarm didn't go off today. I didn't wake until just now. I'm going to miss the appointment. I'm sorry. 

X - I really feel bad.

X - Would you like the appointment on x to be for us or for D7. 

Z - They are all for D7. I would like to revisit this after spring break.

---

My phone sent me these all at once (and a couple from others) with identical time stamps. I can not be sure when they were actually sent. But that doesn't change anything. 

Even if the first was sent before the visit, she still pulled a no show (with the excuse I predicted) and did not answer the therapist's call - which could easily have been put on speaker for the session.


----------



## ReGroup

Has she considered any substance abuse programs?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> Has she considered any substance abuse programs?


No, she's convince the alcohol is not a problem. Both D7's therapist and I have suggested a 2 week inpatient trauma/mental health program to no avail. 

Again her excuse was work. Even though she freely admits that she hates her employers.


----------



## ReGroup

Then I guess its one of those "you have to let them hit rock bottom" cases. 

She's numbing her pain and doesn't want to deal with real life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> Then I guess its one of those "you have to let them hit rock bottom" cases.
> 
> She's numbing her pain and doesn't want to deal with real life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stay @50,000

Let her discover her own truth.


----------



## Pbartender

Flaskback!



zillard said:


> If she wants to drink herself to sleep at night, that's her business.
> 
> Only when it negatively affects my child, in an obvious, direct, and provable way will doing or saying anything help.


In my very personal opinion, missing the joint counseling session fits the bill... but that's just me.


Pb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Flaskback!
> 
> 
> 
> In my very personal opinion, missing the joint counseling session fits the bill... but that's just me.
> 
> 
> Pb.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Flaskback...

Nice touch Pb


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Flaskback...
> 
> Nice touch Pb


You can thank my fat sausage fingers and a teeny-tiny telephone keyboard for that...


Pb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

lol. I cannot accuse or blame it on alcohol without escalating though. With relocation so close is best to just observe and be prepared until we leave. 

I plan to use the time she does take with D7 during spring break (if any) to finalize the house staging then list the house and hold a garage sale on the same day. Next Saturday.


----------



## Chuck71

It is good she has the ability to separate drinking from time with D. But when it all falls down, the two will become blurred, not always but bet the paycheck on it. Her admitting drinking is a problem would force her to admit to other things. She is not there yet. Was her drinking a minor taboo until she started working seconds?


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> It is good she has the ability to separate drinking from time with D. But when it all falls down, the two will become blurred, not always but bet the paycheck on it. Her admitting drinking is a problem would force her to admit to other things. She is not there yet. Was her drinking a minor taboo until she started working seconds?


We both drank together too much. At my prodding we did ban liquor from the house a few times. She has recognized it as a problem in the past as she gets mean and ugly. 

It was easy for good little fixer me to control when she was not working as I bought the groceries. After she went back to work though if I didn't buy it she would stop and get a bottle on her way home. I would then succumb and enable by drinking some too.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> We both drank together too much. At my prodding we did ban liquor from the house a few times. She has recognized it as a problem in the past as she gets mean and ugly.
> 
> It was easy for good little fixer me to control when she was not working as I bought the groceries. After she went back to work though if I didn't buy it she would stop and get a bottle on her way home. I would then succumb and enable by drinking some too.


She has to numb the hornet's nest in her head.


----------



## northernlights

Just finished your thread, thank you for journalling so much. It helps to see how you guys got though this, as I see a lot of personality similarities between you and your X and me and my H.

However it all works out, I wish you and your daughter the best. I have a 7 year old DD, and they just rock.


----------



## Chuck71

Z-That is more than too easy to get lulled into. I have always been a comical drinker. I remember ex would later attempt to pick a fight when I was drinking. It irritated her to death I refused to argue about anything until the next day. Once I smelled an ambush and made it appear I mixed Vodka and water....was just water. After her game was blown....talk about really getting PO'd lol....just goes to show...


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Z-That is more than too easy to get lulled into. I have always been a comical drinker. I remember ex would later attempt to pick a fight when I was drinking. It irritated her to death I refused to argue about anything until the next day. Once I smelled an ambush and made it appear I mixed Vodka and water....was just water. After her game was blown....talk about really getting PO'd lol....just goes to show...


Moderation is no problem now. I go all week with nothing, or a beer or two with dinner. On weekends have some at the pub with my new friends. After that back to water, yoga, and now running. Did my second 2.4 mile yesterday and much less sore than after the first.


----------



## Chuck71

Running is my one area where I will probably never get the joy I should from it. I still run because they said I could not. Running for personal pleasure....not as much emotion derived.


----------



## Garry2012

ambush is pretty funny. I am a comical drinker...but dont much at all...though alcoholism runs in my fam.


----------



## Chuck71

Runs on both sides for me. I had a love grip on it back in college but was lucky enough to scale it back young. What almost got me was "drinking because I was bored". What a great excuse for a 20 y/o!


----------



## hope4family

Alcoholism runs rampant in my family as well. (Both sides.) 

Sadly, the amount of pain I can be in, I can drink a pichure and a half of beer and be completely functional. Fortunately, God gave me heartburn so I can't down whiskey in large amounts. 

Although I have been known to partake, from time to time.


----------



## zillard

I just got a phone call from X. This is unprecedented at this time of day since before separation.

X - Hi! I'm signing up D7 right now for the spring camp.

Z - Ok. 

X - I'm going to be emailing you PDF of an emergency contact form for you to print and sign. My printer isn't hooked up and you'll need to sign it anyway.

Z - Ok. I will print and sign it. Then what?

X - Then when she goes to the school for camp on Monday she'll need the form with her. 

Z - Ok. I can handle half day with her on Monday if you would like to keep her Sunday night and drop her off before you go to work. 

X - Yeah! I can do that. I sound like a man today. I'm getting sick again. I'm sorry.

Crickets

X - Oh wait. I have an appt with [her IC] at 10am Monday. She'll have to come back Sunday night. But I requested the 18th off because she has no school on that Monday. I also requested the 29th off too! 

Z - Ok. So did you request the 14th and 15th off? 

Crickets

X - Nooooo. I figured if she's going to camp she'd have fun going to the whole thing. (followed by more excuses about it being hard to get PTO approved). All the other parents have spring break at the same time. 

Z - Yes. They probably do.

Crickets

X - Well I just wanted to call to let you know that I'll be emailing the the form because I didn't want it to get lost in the email and text shuffle. So I'll be emailing it. 

(nothing has ever gotten 'lost' - in fact we had just exchanged two emails about a recurring charge on my card)

Z - Ok. 

X - Ok. Thank you! Bubye!


----------



## zillard

I didn't take responsibility for her work schedule. I did not agree to give her anything in writing. I did not respond to her "feelings" about missing the appointment. I reminded her it's not about us. 

So now she's trying the be proud of me / hear my voice / give me sympathy / validate / I'll be nice to you approach.


----------



## zillard

Oh my. She's gone back to using my last name too (on the form). :redcard:


----------



## familyfirst09

So I may have missed this...but is there any hope for R in your situation? You're moving away with your D, but your wife is not??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> So I may have missed this...but is there any hope for R in your situation? You're moving away with your D, but your wife is not??


Any chance of R? Certainly. There's always a chance of anything happening. 

Any hope of R? I'm letting hope go. What will happen will happen. I don't know.

I am moving away with my D. She is not. She refuses to follow us, though I suspect that she eventually will. 

PS - She is officially my ex-wife now. Divorce is final.


----------



## familyfirst09

If D is final why is she using your last name again??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> If D is final why is she using your last name again??


Exactly. 

Why is she calling me to tell me she's going to email me?

No offense, but sounds like something you would've done a few weeks ago.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Why is she calling me to tell me she's going to email me?
> 
> No offense, but sounds like something you would've done a few weeks ago.


She truly amuses me.


----------



## terrence4159

the sad thing Z legally she can use your last name the rest of her life... my XW used mine till she got remarried then for 9 months after. i did talk to my lawyer to see if i could force her to change it back...nope


----------



## zillard

To answer my own rhetorical question, part of the reason she called about the form was to make sure I noticed the last name.


----------



## zillard

terrence4159 said:


> the sad thing Z legally she can use your last name the rest of her life... my XW used mine till she got remarried then for 9 months after. i did talk to my lawyer to see if i could force her to change it back...nope


Oh, I don't have a problem with it. Like Conrad said, it is amusing. She wanted to keep my last name at first. Until I told her I didn't want her to keep it if her reason was for me to keep a door open for her. She then got angry and decided to change it. 

The divorce papers included a name change. It has legally been changed.


----------



## zillard

... though I'll probably change the last name back to her maiden name on the form before she signs it on Sunday. And not mention a thing.


----------



## terrence4159

thats funny wonder if she will say anything


----------



## Chuck71

Wish my last name was Smith or Moore. Offered her $100 to change hers. May re-visit thought when the $100 may keep her God-given smartphone from being turned off.


----------



## Garry2012

Yeah...I told my STBXW I wanted her to change her name back..not sure she will....not at this point...makes it too real.


----------



## zillard

Dropped off D7 at noon. X crawled out of bed to answer the door. Immediately started telling me about car paperwork, etc that she'd been trying to sort out. Stuff she told me to remind her about weeks ago. I didn't. Is up to her. Again, the "look, be proud I remembered" approach. 

She told me none of the pto she requested was approved and blamed it all on her crappy employers. 

Z- hmm. ok.

Meanwhile my phone was binging repeatedly. New wingman texting about goin out tonight. They distracted me from her chitchat attempts and I chuckled at the texts, replied as she looked on curiously, then said bye to D7 and left with a smile.

She didn't mention psych appt. No mention of putting things in writing. I expect some fishing texts tonight while I'm out havin fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Oh also:

X - you were right about the (medicine) for D7. I found it. I did have it. 

Z - I know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

I got a text today reminding me of a show we used to watch together was starting up again....i ignored it


----------



## Chuck71

Intentions are meant but not regarded

I want to please you until I am out of chit house

But it takes effort

I work and drink 16 hrs a day. I don't have time


----------



## Chuck71

LOL Garry that's a helluva reach


----------



## Garry2012

Me reaching? Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

She is used to you filling in and stepping up for her short comings... And you don't anymore.... Has to affect her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

I was under the impression that women typically kept their married name, at least until they remarry, so they can have the same last name as their children. When did she start using her maiden name? During separation before divorce was final? That seems odd to me.


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Why is she calling me to tell me she's going to email me?
> 
> No offense, but sounds like something you would've done a few weeks ago.


How did I miss this?! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> I was under the impression that women typically kept their married name, at least until they remarry, so they can have the same last name as their children. When did she start using her maiden name? During separation before divorce was final? That seems odd to me.


Were you also under the impression that the children are typically top priority for divorced women?

Before separation she said she wanted to keep it for D7. But then got mad at me and changed her mind. So it must not have been for D7.

"I don't want the last name of someone who doesn't trust me."

Z - That's your fault and your decision.

But yes, after the petition was filed and before decree was approved she went back to maiden name on facebook and some other places. 

She still had credit cards and often received mail in her maiden name throughout the marriage, so some things she doesn't have to switch back.


----------



## Conrad

Garry2012 said:


> She is used to you filling in and stepping up for her short comings... And you don't anymore.... Has to affect her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Her shortcomings?

You mean those she never saw?


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Were you also under the impression that the children are typically top priority for divorced women?


Touché.


----------



## ReGroup

Ceegee,

My STBX is scheduled to pick up my daughter at 3pm today - not a peep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> Ceegee,
> 
> My STBX is scheduled to pick up my daughter at 3pm today - not a peep.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Any sign of her yet?

Damn you ReGroup!

Why didn't you tell me they were changing the time today?!!!

You selfish prick!


----------



## ReGroup

I'm sorry you feel that way Chip.

I took off, as I have pre arranged plans.  Moms, can handle the exchange.

She also texted: You left us stranded for tomorrow.

In reference to D4's off day tomorrow.

I ignored the text.

She can find an alternative herself!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way Chip.
> 
> I took off, as I have pre arranged plans.  Moms, can handle the exchange.
> 
> She also texted: You left us stranded for tomorrow.
> 
> In reference to D4's off day tomorrow.
> 
> I ignored the text.
> 
> She can find an alternative herself!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Impossible to like that one enough.

It's her time.

It's her problem.


----------



## Ceegee

I know how it feels to be blamed for anything and everything. 

After I was kicked out of my house, my STBXW was supposed to have a garage sale. This was her response after I asked how it went. 

"Nothing since I had no help and our gates were closed and no one could come in. That is why everything is still sitting in the garage and I stopped early and I will be getting help from someone else to help me put it in the attic that is a mess. I gave stuff away!"


----------



## ReGroup

And if you would have helped her out, she wouldn't have even "seen" it. Been there done that.

Damned if you did, damned if you don't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

I'm still trying to figure out how my STBX is blaming me for him not calling D for a week at a time....seriously??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how my STBX is blaming me for him not calling D for a week at a time....seriously??


Blame is easier than admitting your own faults. Simple as that. 

BTW, so far this is the first weekend with no texts or emails from X.


----------



## familyfirst09

So is being a coward easier than being a grown man. 

You must have hit a nerve....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Garry-Reach on her part, per yesterdays post

Conrad-LOL

Group-you've gone n lost that lovin' feelin....8>)


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> ...more excuses about it being hard to get PTO approved). All the other parents have spring break at the same time.
> 
> Z - Yes. They probably do.
> 
> Crickets


She has admitted that she's been talking with other divorced mothers at work. Now she sees them all get a week off with their kids, while she works.


----------



## Chuck71

Z-The blame dogma has gone

the shame game is breaking the horizon

You can no longer be the fall guy, so why contact you

yet a couple more arsenals will be attempted

prideful people rarely surrender

they simply burn up inside


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> She can find an alternative herself!


Nice, RG!

My X gets to feel like crap, work all week, be away from her daughter and pay for spring camp - missing a huge opportunity to prove herself. 

She could have felt great using that money to have fun with D7 all week while still getting paid. And earned points with me in the process.

Like Katy said, it must suck to suck.


----------



## ReGroup

Hahahahahaha Chucky, so true.

zillard, me saying you and your daughter deserve better would be the grandest of all of understatements.

She's whack!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

100 pages! A toast to zillard!

Influencing the many.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> 100 pages! A toast to zillard!
> 
> Influencing the many.


I definitely got something huge out of the 100 pages in my thread. If only one other person gets something out of them... I feel great about that. 

Thanks to everyone who has contributed! 

It has been a bumpy ride. Worth every minute. 

I met another cougar last night. An artist who paints a subject matter often found in my personal work - spirals. 

The Fibonacci spiral amazes me - hence the nautilus shell tattoo on my shoulder. Constant, steady growth. Progression that can be measured and anticipated. Stick to the plotted course and the expansion is inevitable.


----------



## spun

zillard said:


> I definitely got something huge out of the 100 pages in my thread. If only one other person gets something out of them... I feel great about that.
> 
> Thanks to everyone who has contributed!
> 
> It has been a bumpy ride. Worth every minute.
> 
> I met another cougar last night. An artist who paints a subject matter often found in my personal work - spirals.
> 
> The Fibonacci spiral amazes me - hence the nautilus shell tattoo on my shoulder. Constant, steady growth. Progression that can be measured and anticipated. Stick to the plotted course and the expansion is inevitable.


What are your thoughts on fractals?

So much of what we observe across space and time seems to repeat itself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

spun said:


> What are your thoughts on fractals?
> 
> So much of what we observe across space and time seems to repeat itself.


Awesome. As in true awe. That repetition and scalability. We know that objects - including the human body - are not as solid as they seem. Look in and closer and you see that the majority of our mass is actually empty space in between subatomic particles. Look up and out far enough and we see the same thing in the universe - mostly empty space.

At our level, if we step back or go up to 50,000 feet and observe, we see that other people are incredibly similar to ourselves. We all have positive and negative parts. 

The parts we choose to charge directly affect what we attract.


----------



## K.C.

Z, I think it is safe to say you have already been an inspiration.

You my friend, have totally rocked this journey. If anyone deserves a good outcome it is you. Wherever the remainder of your trip takes you, it would seem you have a bright future.

I have a way to go to reach the stage you appear to be at but wow, keep it going and all the best!


----------



## spun

Z,

They invite true awareness...

To those willing peek beyond the "filters" that have a habit of distorting reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Let you in on a little secret KC.

Women absolutely swoon for men who understand relationships.

I believe Zillard will concur.

So, you appear strong and funny. She's intrigued. She asks about your divorce.

You let out a long sigh and say, "It's complicated"

"Why wasn't it able to work"

"We built up too many #3's with each other"

"What's a #3?"

By the time that discussion is over, she'll be touching your arm and her eyes will be glued to you.

For you see, Zillard came to this thread distraught and feeling rejected. We find him on page #100 strong and empowered. He realizes X actually did him a favor.

Not that he's going to say "thank you".

But, she was sent to him to wake him up.

He answered the bell.


----------



## K.C.

I need to let go of so many preconceived notions. I am honestly trying but it feels like playing games... thing is when I "analyse" it... it is a game, I just never knew the rules before and now they seem strange.

Working on it!


----------



## zillard

K.C. said:


> I need to let go of so many preconceived notions. I am honestly trying but it feels like playing games... thing is when I "analyse" it... it is a game, I just never knew the rules before and now they seem strange.
> 
> Working on it!


New and unknown = strange, but often also = good, exciting and invigorating.

Analyze the past. Enjoy the present. Trying to analyze the future is futile. But once we are done analyzing the past, and are enjoying the present, we can often anticipate the future without fear.


----------



## K.C.

Where I come unstuck is trying to analyse the past. Depression skews everything you see. So fook it, I just need to work blind. What's the worst that could happen!


----------



## zillard

K.C. said:


> What's the worst that could happen!


If we are comfortable with ourselves and happy, does it matter?


----------



## zillard

K.C. said:


> Where I come unstuck is trying to analyse the past. Depression skews everything you see.


What ifs will bog you down. Because they are usually stuck to a notion of changing someone else's behavior or reactions.

Stick to trying to see what truly was. Who you were. What you did and why. Then you know what you need to do and who you need to be in order to find happiness.


----------



## familyfirst09

Conrad said:


> Let you in on a little secret KC.
> 
> Women absolutely swoon for men who understand relationships.
> 
> I believe Zillard will concur.
> 
> So, you appear strong and funny. She's intrigued. She asks about your divorce.
> 
> You let out a long sigh and say, "It's complicated"
> 
> "Why wasn't it able to work"
> 
> "We built up too many #3's with each other"
> 
> "What's a #3?"
> 
> By the time that discussion is over, she'll be touching your arm and her eyes will be glued to you.
> 
> For you see, Zillard came to this thread distraught and feeling rejected. We find him on page #100 strong and empowered. He realizes X actually did him a favor.
> 
> Not that he's going to say "thank you".
> 
> But, she was sent to him to wake him up.
> 
> He answered the bell.


For once I understand what Conrad is saying, ha! And I agree. Men who know how a relationship is supposed to work, who's willing to do the work and don't just ignore everything or run away when the chips are down, are pretty hot. 

I don't know what a #3 is tho.....lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## K.C.

That's what i mean though, I look back and I honestly don't know what was. There is what I "thought" was, what I "think" was and what "she says was".. when they don't match up.. well errrrrrr....

That leaves me looking at who I am now and what "he" thinks of each of those 3 scenarios. I am making progress but not knowing what to believe of the past makes it harder for sure. I honestly do not know what I remember correctly.


----------



## spun

K.C. said:


> That's what i mean though, I look back and I honestly don't know what was. There is what I "thought" was, what I "think" was and what "she says was".. when they don't match up.. well errrrrrr....
> 
> That leaves me looking at who I am now and what "he" thinks of each of those 3 scenarios. I am making progress but not knowing what to believe of the past makes it harder for sure. I honestly do not know what I remember correctly.


Making sense of events for which you were "asleep" is a b!tch ;-).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> I definitely got something huge out of the 100 pages in my thread. If only one other person gets something out of them... I feel great about that.
> 
> Thanks to everyone who has contributed!
> 
> It has been a bumpy ride. Worth every minute.
> 
> I met another cougar last night. An artist who paints a subject matter often found in my personal work - spirals.
> 
> The Fibonacci spiral amazes me - hence the nautilus shell tattoo on my shoulder. Constant, steady growth. Progression that can be measured and anticipated. Stick to the plotted course and the expansion is inevitable.


Z...I am getting something out of them...like i have said...your a few weeks/months (something) ahead of me....so i watch your thread alot.


----------



## K.C.

I hear that!

I don't even know that I am awake now. Awakening may be more appropriate! Definite work in progress here!

Maybe I just need to let go entirely and work on what I see now?


----------



## zillard

K.C. said:


> That's what i mean though, I look back and I honestly don't know what was. There is what I "thought" was, what I "think" was and what "she says was".. when they don't match up.. well errrrrrr....
> 
> That leaves me looking at who I am now and what "he" thinks of each of those 3 scenarios. I am making progress but not knowing what to believe of the past makes it harder for sure. I honestly do not know what I remember correctly.


Observing at 50,000ft is more about watching yourself. How you react. Why do you react in that way? Are you responding to the truth of the present or are you using behaviors learned in your past. Are you doing what you've always done? Are you reacting to your past when feeling something again - responding to an earlier situation when it may not fit here in the present?


----------



## K.C.

That makes sense and I do feel i am getting better at that.

Yesterday we had a disagreement about the fairness of what she was doing between the eldest and youngest (for once the middle lad kept his trap shut hoorah!)

I asked her to nip into other rom to discuss it, She declined and objected in front of the boys. Instead of escalating as I probably would have before I waited till today to explain while i perhaps could have raise my objection more subtly it was her that `then objected and made a deal in front of the kids.

Small steps but I am trying to be aware.


----------



## familyfirst09

spun said:


> Making sense of events for which you were "asleep" is a b!tch ;-).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its a total b!tch!! I hear STBX's excuses - he tried to work things out, but yet I can't recall a thing he did. He said I didn't show him affection, and yes I don't think I did either, but I'm not sure in what way. Maybe its the BS's "fog" that I've heard talked about. He blames me, and I feel that blame, I just don't know what I'm being blamed for. Maybe if I knew, I could fix myself quicker!! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> Its a total b!tch!! I hear STBX's excuses - he tried to work things out, but yet I can't recall a thing he did. He said I didn't show him affection, and yes I don't think I did either, but I'm not sure in what way. Maybe its the BS's "fog" that I've heard talked about. He blames me, and I feel that blame, I just don't know what I'm being blamed for. Maybe if I knew, I could fix myself quicker!! Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People like to receive affection in different ways. See 5 Love Languages. You may have been pouring out affection in the ways you like to receive. But if it's not his "language", you were speaking greek to him.


----------



## familyfirst09

Its another one of the books I have. I bought it for STBX but obviously too late now. But I will still be reading it for myself and for my future husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

familyfirst09 said:


> Its another one of the books I have. I bought it for STBX but obviously too late now. But I will still be reading it for myself and for my future husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I read it. I understood so much better everything that was is and what changed. 

I urge you to do so as well. Warning in advance. You will cry while reading it. Not because it's touching, but the knowledge will cause a flood of emotions that makes you wish you could have done better. 

The devil of the matter between you and I. Is that you don't have to use those tools on your ex, but desire to use them as a reward for your next husband and if possible. Educate them.


----------



## Conrad

spun said:


> Making sense of events for which you were "asleep" is a b!tch ;-).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There's actually no point in it.

You're no longer that person.


----------



## Conrad

K.C. said:


> I hear that!
> 
> I don't even know that I am awake now. Awakening may be more appropriate! Definite work in progress here!
> 
> Maybe I just need to let go entirely and work on what I see now?


KC,

I don't think you're quite there yet.

Think of it as a caterpillar - pupae - butterfly thing.

You need to beat your new wings strongly enough against the cocoon to emerge.

The cocoon is your own head.

Get out of it.


----------



## familyfirst09

hope4family said:


> I read it. I understood so much better everything that was is and what changed.
> 
> I urge you to do so as well. Warning in advance. You will cry while reading it. Not because it's touching, but the knowledge will cause a flood of emotions that makes you wish you could have done better.
> 
> The devil of the matter between you and I. Is that you don't have to use those tools on your ex, but desire to use them as a reward for your next husband and if possible. Educate them.


That is precisely why I will read it. For me, and for D as well as I'm told it will help me communicate with her better as well. And for that lucky guy who gets to share my future 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## K.C.

Conrad said:


> KC,
> 
> I don't think you're quite there yet.
> 
> Think of it as a caterpillar - pupae - butterfly thing.
> 
> You need to beat your new wings strongly enough against the cocoon to emerge.
> 
> The cocoon is your own head.
> 
> Get out of it.


I definitely agree. not "awakened" but "awakening".

It is like there is a truth just barely out of reach atm.


----------



## Ceegee

5 Love Languages should be required reading for all adults. I remember when I first read it, when the wife and I were first showing signs of serious problems. It was very eye opening. But, while I realized then that I wanted to learn my wife's love language, she would not read it. I don't want to place too much importance on this book but man, if she would have read it and made an effort to work on the relationship with me, maybe we wouldn't be where we are now. 

My language is physical touch. The author states "to withdraw from my body is to distance yourself from me emotionally." Only those of you who also share this trait know how true this is. To pull away or resist physical touch is just like saying "go away I don't like you."


----------



## zillard

X showed up 20 minutes early to drop off D7 - rather than late. 

D7 ran in and tackled me. I teased her playfully as usual. She stepped back and slugged me in the stomach. I laughed. Again she slugged. 

X - Stop hitting your Dad, D7!

D7 - He's been working out a LOT mom! It doesn't even hurt him. See! 

And then reared back again as I laughed. We've played like this recently - and she understands it's ok in this situation.

X - well I haven't been. But I'm still a size [X], so that is pretty good. See look. 

And she lifts her shirt to show her stomach... to D7?

D7 asks about some boxes against the wall. I tell her they are filled with stuff for the garage sale. 

X - Boss lady said that if I bring in some doctor's notes to excuse a couple of my absences from October then she can switch me to days. 

Z - that's nice (then back to playing with D7)

No mention of the requirement that I put my intent in writing. Guess it was BS after all. No surprise.

X - Did you get a proper haircut!?

Z - Some time ago.

X - I was wondering what was different!

(I've had 4 since growing my hair out after separation. Kept it shaved before)

D7 was playful as always. X gave her goodbye hugs and kisses four times, distracted by D7 and I playing in between each. Lifted up her shirt in front of me again to show D7 the tattoo on her lower stomach. Then finally left and gave her another goodbye at the door while I was in the kitchen starting dinner.


----------



## hope4family

Ceegee said:


> 5 Love Languages should be required reading for all adults. I remember when I first read it, when the wife and I were first showing signs of serious problems. It was very eye opening. But, while I realized then that I wanted to learn my wife's love language, she would not read it. I don't want to place too much importance on this book but man, if she would have read it and made an effort to work on the relationship with me, maybe we wouldn't be where we are now.
> 
> My language is physical touch. The author states "to withdraw from my body is to distance yourself from me emotionally." Only those of you who also share this trait know how true this is. To pull away or resist physical touch is just like saying "go away I don't like you."


I had felt like I was going through a dry spell as it was. Once things surfaced, and all that stopped completely. I shut down completely. 

Each morning was like getting kicked in the groin. Each night was like being punched in the gut. I don't want to have that feeling for a long time if I can help it. 

Sorry for you man. I relate.


----------



## Ceegee

How does it feel to have the PosW tripping over herself to impress you?


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> X showed up 20 minutes early to drop off D7 - rather than late.
> 
> D7 ran in and tackled me. I teased her playfully as usual. She stepped back and slugged me in the stomach. I laughed. Again she slugged.
> 
> X - Stop hitting your Dad, D7!
> 
> D7 - He's been working out a LOT mom! It doesn't even hurt him. See!
> 
> And then reared back again as I laughed. We've played like this recently - and she understands it's ok in this situation.
> 
> X - well I haven't been. But I'm still a size [X], so that is pretty good. See look.
> 
> And she lifts her shirt to show her stomach... to D7?
> 
> D7 asks about some boxes against the wall. I tell her they are filled with stuff for the garage sale.
> 
> X - Boss lady said that if I bring in some doctor's notes to excuse a couple of my absences from October then she can switch me to days.
> 
> Z - that's nice (then back to playing with D7)
> 
> No mention of the requirement that I put my intent in writing. Guess it was BS after all. No surprise.
> 
> X - Did you get a proper haircut!?
> 
> Z - Some time ago.
> 
> X - I was wondering what was different!
> 
> (I've had 4 since growing my hair out after separation. Kept it shaved before)
> 
> D7 was playful as always. X gave her goodbye hugs and kisses four times, distracted by D7 and I playing in between each. Lifted up her shirt in front of me again to show D7 the tattoo on her lower stomach. Then finally left and gave her another goodbye at the door while I was in the kitchen starting dinner.


Interesting interaction. I am glad you were primarily indifferent. If she switches to days, and actually gets it. This could be good for everyone. 

I am still mindful for you. She reminds me of my abandoning spouse. "Do just enough to pass with a D+" type approach.


----------



## hope4family

Ceegee said:


> How does it feel to have the PosW tripping over herself to impress you?


"They" often see it as competition. If I had a nickle for every time my ex-wife told me I was "winning". I'd have a lot of nickles. 

Maybe enough for a good humor candy bar.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> How does it feel to have the PosW tripping over herself to impress you?


Moderately amused while the codependent left in me feels slightly flattered (but I recognize that I should not - identify and sort). 

The inconsistency of her employers alleged requirements shows me that I still can not trust what she says. Observing is better.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Let you in on a little secret KC.
> 
> Women absolutely swoon for men who understand relationships.
> 
> I believe Zillard will concur.
> 
> So, you appear strong and funny. She's intrigued. She asks about your divorce.
> 
> You let out a long sigh and say, "It's complicated"
> 
> "Why wasn't it able to work"
> 
> "We built up too many #3's with each other"
> 
> "What's a #3?"
> 
> By the time that discussion is over, she'll be touching your arm and her eyes will be glued to you.


I absolutely concur.

From some unnamed, charming woman who is not X:

"I want to buy your 'how to survive life and parenting' book. You are quite the source of information and good advice. Not the most eloquent way of putting it but.. Thanks for talking to me tonight.  "


----------



## Ceegee

Where were the #3's explained?


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Where were the #3's explained?


Originally Posted by Conrad 
A #3 is a boundary penetrating good deed.

Doing it because the other person "wants it", but it ends up making you feel bad about you.

Small examples include not speaking up when your spouse violates an agreement on spending.

Big examples include seeing an EA developing and keeping your mouth shut so as not to "seem controlling"

You get the idea.


----------



## Ceegee

Thanks Z. Wasn't there post where you guys discussed this at length?


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Thanks Z. Wasn't there post where you guys discussed this at length?


I honestly don't remember which thread it was. There is some recent discussion on this in HK's thread though:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/67539-reinventing-katy-28.html


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> Interesting interaction. I am glad you were primarily indifferent. If she switches to days, and actually gets it. This could be good for everyone.
> 
> I am still mindful for you. She reminds me of my abandoning spouse. "Do just enough to pass with a D+" type approach.


Those are called crumbs of love.


----------



## Pbartender

Sorry, busy weekend... Catching up on the thread and saw this...



Conrad said:


> Let you in on a little secret KC.
> 
> Women absolutely swoon for men who understand relationships.
> 
> I believe Zillard will concur.
> 
> So, you appear strong and funny. She's intrigued. She asks about your divorce.
> 
> You let out a long sigh and say, "It's complicated"
> 
> "Why wasn't it able to work"
> 
> "We built up too many #3's with each other"
> 
> "What's a #3?"
> 
> By the time that discussion is over, she'll be touching your arm and her eyes will be glued to you.


:iagree:

QFT

Listen to Conrad. This situation, almost exactly, happened to me Friday night... Later, she steamed my glasses for me when I walked her out to her car.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

Dropped off D7 at Spring Camp. 

As for the form, X got the immunization history wrong and made no mention of her asthma. I corrected those.

The best part... no form was needed. It was only for spring camp kids who do not already attend this school. 

smh


----------



## HappyKaty

That's an example of her trying to go above and beyond, and failing miserably. That's a shame, too, because I can see that she has amazing potential. IC should be her best friend.


----------



## familyfirst09

Pbartender said:


> Sorry, busy weekend... Catching up on the thread and saw this...
> 
> 
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> QFT
> 
> Listen to Conrad. This situation, almost exactly, happened to me Friday night... Later, she steamed my glasses for me when I walked her out to her car.
> 
> 
> Pb.


Why do I think the same doesn't hold true for men about who know how to have a relationship? We just come off as kooky!! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Originally Posted by Conrad
> A #3 is a boundary penetrating good deed.
> 
> Doing it because the other person "wants it", but it ends up making you feel bad about you.
> 
> Small examples include not speaking up when your spouse violates an agreement on spending.
> 
> Big examples include seeing an EA developing and keeping your mouth shut so as not to "seem controlling"
> 
> You get the idea.


Ya'know, having been called controlling so many times. I find it hard to describe a healthy boundary there. But I do remember finding myself in the big example many times. 

The lessons come in how to constructively tell someone "no". I guess the hard lesson is, building the boundary. Then pushing through it. It takes a self respect that I am working on.


----------



## zillard

It really is a shame. She's a very intelligent woman. While a SAHM she handled all this stuff with ease. My mother (amazing woman who raised over 10 kids) frequently was impressed with X's mothering skills.

She is no longer that person. She does have IC today. But she must do it for her. Not to impress me (she's told me about her appt twice since Friday).


----------



## HappyKaty

She may begin with the idea of impressing you, but if the therapist is any good, she'll soon realize her POS tendencies and start doing it for herself.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> if the therapist is any good, she'll soon realize her POS tendencies and start doing it for herself.


She has signed a waiver so that her IC and D's IC (who's been doing our joint sessions) can talk. They are in the same office and do.


----------



## hope4family

familyfirst09 said:


> Why do I think the same doesn't hold true for men about who know how to have a relationship? We just come off as kooky!! Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Solid point. Although, I was sitting by a divorcee who is going through mediation like myself. So, to hear her describe what happened in her relationship and how it failed. Was refreshing that someone else "got it". 

She gained instant attractive points. Nothing feels more uniting then a fellow abandoned spouse. It's like we become instant friends. 

Hopefully I see her Friday. Like to get to know her more. SSHH.


----------



## zillard

I believe this factor has and could make a big difference. Part of the reason X's attitude is now much less combative than say ReGroup's posW.

His has a big head due to her job in this field. Mine has now heard from pros that I am doing great and she needs to step it up.

The stubbornness and pride in her is fueling a lot of resistance though.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Solid point. Although, I was sitting by a divorcee who is going through mediation like myself. So, to hear her describe what happened in her relationship and how it failed. Was refreshing that someone else "got it".
> 
> She gained instant attractive points. Nothing feels more uniting then a fellow abandoned spouse. It's like we become instant friends.
> 
> Hopefully I see her Friday. Like to get to know her more. SSHH.


Tigergirl is a single mother and doing great work rebuilding. Volunteering, self help books, meditation, etc. We have long discussions about co-parenting, healthy relationships and healing. 

It most definitely is attractive, FF.


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> Why do I think the same doesn't hold true for men about who know how to have a relationship? We just come off as kooky!! Lol


The key here, FF is this:

Knowledge of relationships will only attract those who value that insight. 

Added bonus!


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> The key here, FF is this:
> 
> Knowledge of relationships will only attract those who value that insight.
> 
> Added bonus!


Also make a note. I do not view those people as damaged goods either. Someone who talks about it objectively. Frame it in a way of "they made the mistake". 

I put a very high value on someone who is wanting to take pride in themselves. Who recognizes there mistakes. Of the conversation I heard several key notes. 

# He left, didn't bother paying anything. Now suddenly he is sending me letters saying he is willing to pay up so he doesn't lose his assets.

# I let him control me through my submissive behavior. 

# I didn't see it coming but will from here. 

Nothing is more attractive then a woman who learns something and shows growth. She wasn't blaming him for anything. Just "moving on" indifferent. Strong and confident in themselves. 

Yeah, its attractive.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I believe this factor has and could make a big difference. Part of the reason X's attitude is now much less combative than say ReGroup's posW.
> 
> His has a big head due to her job in this field. Mine has now heard from pros that I am doing great and she needs to step it up.
> 
> The stubbornness and pride in her is fueling a lot of resistance though.


When you get your ass kissed for 30 straight years, it's a hard habit to break.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> I believe this factor has and could make a big difference. Part of the reason X's attitude is now much less combative than say ReGroup's posW.
> 
> His has a big head due to her job in this field. Mine has now heard from pros that I am doing great and she needs to step it up.
> 
> The stubbornness and pride in her is fueling a lot of resistance though.


Interesting thought there... My STBXW has been actively avoiding everyone (including me) who might tell her that I'm doing great (or at least doing well) and she needs to step it up.

It's a different tactic from ReGroup's posW, but has generally the same result.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

I think I hit my therapist's threshold. 

My last session ended with a discussion of his views on gun control. It has become less therapy and more chit chat the last couple sessions. 

I'm hesitant to find a new one before the move though, so I'll probably start individual sessions with D7's IC. Aside from children she also does a lot of work on codependency and I wouldn't have to start from scratch with her.


----------



## turnera

Sounds like a good plan. Sometimes you have to hunt for a good fit.


----------



## zillard

I got an email sent off to the realtor with all the info she requested to get the ball rolling. 

Front yard is spiffy and ready to go. 
Back yard is 80% done. 
Inside is 75% sorted.
Garage will be good to go after the garage sale.
Then I can start stacking packed boxes in the garage.
The last spring cleaning to follow directly after.

Got a lot done today (including another 2.5 mile run). It feels great!


----------



## terrence4159

whooaaa whooaaa what was his view on gun control??? if he was for gun control hes a horible therapist and you need a new one!!


----------



## zillard

terrence4159 said:


> whooaaa whooaaa what was his view on gun control??? if he was for gun control hes a horible therapist and you need a new one!!


Never go anywhere alone without one.


----------



## familyfirst09

Good for you!! Where are you moving to anyway and why??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## terrence4159

lol i dont, i got a concealed weapons permit and carry a springfield x-ds .45 with me every where.


----------



## terrence4159

hes moving back to his family in another state.


----------



## zillard

terrence4159 said:


> lol i dont, i got a concealed weapons permit and carry a springfield x-ds .45 with me every where.


You don't need a CCW in this state. 

Bersa Thunder .380


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> Good for you!! Where are you moving to anyway and why??


I'm moving my daughter back to my hometown in northern Utah where I have a huge family ready and waiting to help out. I work from home so am not tied down that way. Mountains, camping, rivers, lakes, family, snow and awesome await me. 

We moved here to X's home state and bought a house. Naively thought it would make her happy. HUGE #3. Boy was I wrong.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> We moved here to X's home state and bought a house. Naively thought it would make her happy. HUGE #3. Boy was I wrong.


Clarity


----------



## terrence4159

yeah but i can go visit gary in texas and carry there (and utah) legally


----------



## zillard

terrence4159 said:


> yeah but i can go visit gary in texas and carry there (and utah) legally


True. I'm looking forward to getting the Utah permit. It's honored in a bunch of places.


----------



## Ceegee

terrence4159 said:


> yeah but i can go visit gary in texas and carry there (and utah) legally


In Texas we get guns from the tooth fairy. :smthumbup:


----------



## Chuck71

Z-How is the nicotine bondage going?


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> You don't need a CCW in this state.
> 
> Bersa Thunder .380


You do in my state. But we honor Utah permits . 

Glock 26, or Kimber Pro Carry II.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Z-How is the nicotine bondage going?


Not as good as I hoped. Failed at cold turkey. Have been buying a pack on the weekends when D7 is gone. However, it has not affected me steadily increasing my fitness routine. 

Couch > yoga > yoga + situps & pushups > yoga + walking, situps & pushups > yoga, walking, situps, pushups + resistance bands > yoga, situps, pushups, resistance bands, jumping jacks + running.


----------



## terrence4159

and when you get the utah CCW you will have the holy grail of ccw's utahs is the mos recognized in the usa. i almost got it but was a 4 hr class and im way way to lazy + the states (like 7) that idaho's doesnt cover are states i would never go to anyway


----------



## Stella Moon

zillard said:


> Never go anywhere alone without one.


Me either...not even work! Lol!


----------



## staystrong

zillard said:


> We moved here to X's home state and bought a house. Naively thought it would make her happy. HUGE #3. Boy was I wrong.


Hmm.. seems like this could go either way.


----------



## Chuck71

I live in the easternmost part of TN.....base of the Smokies. Around here no one fools with getting a permit. They just carry. Ten to fifteen years ago it was common for a student to bring his new rifle to school to show his teacher. Bows are very common here too. With rural areas, it is mostly for hunting. The nearby metro areas of Knoxville and Chattanooga....you are fine. Just avoid certain areas. Laws are enforced in these parts but you are mainly left alone.

As for the smokes, I still have that problem. I can cut back to 4-5 a day fairly easy. During the roller coaster....yeah I increased the puffs. Idle time usually means more puffs. Age + smokes= less running. So I have a decision to make. 

If you are moving close to Provo....have a friend out there who runs a pizza joint. Has saliva drooling menu.


----------



## Garry2012

Z...we bought our current house (above what i wanted to pay) to make her happy...didnt take her long to start griping about what the house didnt have, or what was not as nice as her friends. 

Yeah, i was wrong too...a house, a happy family, a decent husband....all is not the remedy for someone not happy with themselves.......


----------



## Garry2012

I dont smoke...but I do listen to hard rock alot louder than i used to lol....i can buy new speakers someday


----------



## Nix

zillard said:


> To clarify - second time she was out all night she was with the same guy, and again stayed all night even though her girlfriend went home. Again I had to pry for each bit of info.
> 
> I told her that even if she is just watching movies with this guy, it still is not ok because she is not being upfront with me, she is lying by omission, she is repeating behavior that she knows hurts me, and she is breaking her promise to me in the process.
> 
> "I don't think it's a big deal, but I guess it is because it's a big deal for you."
> 
> Wow, I feel like she thinks that was an apology. This made me feel so small.



She is sleeping with him. Bank on it. Take whatever action is necessary. She would not be texting him as much as she is and staying over at his house if they were not physically involved. It just does not make any sense.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Not as good as I hoped. Failed at cold turkey. Have been buying a pack on the weekends when D7 is gone. However, it has not affected me steadily increasing my fitness routine.


I have a guy I work with who's having success doing what's the smoker's equivalent of the Couch to 5K plan...

He's cutting back, but instead of setting a number of cigarettes he's allowed per day, he has rules for when and where he's allowed to smoke. He's worked up to completely cutting out having cigarettes at work, for example.


Pb.


----------



## Chuck71

Garry-Were those complaints made when she was still a SAHM?

We have to turn the hard rock up louder today....hearing loss from all the AC/DC concerts 25 years ago


----------



## hope4family

Garry2012 said:


> Z...we bought our current house (above what i wanted to pay) to make her happy...didnt take her long to start griping about what the house didnt have, or what was not as nice as her friends.
> 
> Yeah, i was wrong too...a house, a happy family, a decent husband....all is not the remedy for someone not happy with themselves.......


I am actually trying not to think about number #3. But now I realize the truth. Like an epiphany. 

I 1.5x my salary in 2 years. "It would make us happy." 
Moved 3 in 2 years. "It would make us happy." 
Took a position that would allow me to work from home. "It would make us happy." 

I only say this. Because today I had a trigger which caused me to remember her saying about "her being disappointed I work from home now."

There are other things i'm not listing for personal reasons. But now I realize. It wasn't about "us" at all. I didn't consider these #3's before. Now I do. Thanks for the insight.


----------



## Garry2012

Chuck71 said:


> Garry-Were those complaints made when she was still a SAHM?
> 
> We have to turn the hard rock up louder today....hearing loss from all the AC/DC concerts 25 years ago


Here is the funny thing....i ijust noticed this.....so, for 12 years i was big into country etc, and she was into classic rock...i was the boring one...

Now i jam to ac/dc, godsmack, seether etc...to the point where she complains...and i tell her that SHE is an old lady....cracks me up. She is listening to softer rock, and I am the one turning it up....partly because of her, but mostly cause its good.

Yeah, I have tried and tried to make her happy.....cant do it...and in fact i have been happier not having to worry about her happiness...


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> I have a guy I work with who's having success doing what's the smoker's equivalent of the Couch to 5K plan...
> 
> He's cutting back, but instead of setting a number of cigarettes he's allowed per day, he has rules for when and where he's allowed to smoke. He's worked up to completely cutting out having cigarettes at work, for example.


Yeah, it can be done. I'm actually a bit ahead of schedule on the Couch to 5K.

When I worked in the office I never smoked at work. I would have my first smoke of the day after returning home. I wonder if that says something.


----------



## Chuck71

Garry This one is for you

Autograph - Turn Up The Radio (Music Video) - YouTube

Autograph-Turn up the Radio.......1984


----------



## zillard

I had a very emotional evening last night. 

I took D7 out to eat at a mexican restaurant and we had a great time. Noticed a few triggers there. X used to cook great mexican food and we'd been to that place once together to check it out. No big deal though. 

Went home and got D7 to bed. Received emails from the realtor about the house sale. Reviewed comps, pricing, etc. Another trigger there. Still no big deal. 

Finished up a logo for my brother's new tattoo studio he's starting in my hometown. X was going to work there and we were going to invest some in it. More triggers. 

Then sat to relax and watch some tv for a bit. The situation in the show I was watching turned out to be an abandoned kid confronting his posMother. 

All the triggers of the day suddenly piled up and the floodgates broke. But I let it flow - experienced it fully. 

No matter how far we come, we must expect that this will happen from time to time. But it does happen less often as time goes on and we learn and grow. 

I slept great and feel much better today. Ready for another run.


----------



## soca70

Z - I'm still not clear as to why your X is not relocating with you and your daughter. It doesn't sound like she has many friends or family in your current location. Nor some kind of job that couldn't be found elsewhere.

Since it's a small town in UT with your family mostly around, does she just not see any real future for her there?

I';m just trying to understand the thinking here...


----------



## GutPunch

Yesterday is gone. Today is new.

Hang in there.

Tomorrow is yours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

soca70 said:


> Z - I'm still not clear as to why your X is not relocating with you and your daughter. It doesn't sound like she has many friends or family in your current location. Nor some kind of job that couldn't be found elsewhere.
> 
> Since it's a small town in UT with your family mostly around, does she just not see any real future for her there?
> 
> I';m just trying to understand the thinking here...


The hornet's nest between her ears prevents her from rationally setting a course and following-through.


----------



## zillard

soca70 said:


> Z - I'm still not clear as to why your X is not relocating with you and your daughter. It doesn't sound like she has many friends or family in your current location. Nor some kind of job that couldn't be found elsewhere.
> 
> Since it's a small town in UT with your family mostly around, does she just not see any real future for her there?
> 
> I';m just trying to understand the thinking here...


It is a small town, but not tiny. 125k+ people in the area, all the usual amenities, big box stores, university, etc. (but no bustling night life). One of the safest places in the country according to crime stats. Much better schools than where we are now. Really a postcard-perfect location great for raising children. 

She has many excuses, but they are mostly just that - excuses. 

The weather is big, though don't see how it matters much as she spends most her time cooped up. 

The predominant religion is big, though that's a cop out. Who cares what others do?

I really see it as a fear of facing my family. She won't hold herself accountable so is too worried about what my family thinks of her. 

She could find a job in her field, with effort. She could live in a big metro area not far away with even more jobs and not be close to my family. She could easily give up her work friends - she had no problem giving up her BFF from high school. 

But as Conrad pointed out, she is too distracted to remember a simple parenting schedule. Of course she isn't focused enough to decide and commit to something as big as a relocation.


----------



## zillard

Had a pleasant surprise just now. 

My VP called me into his 1:1 with his boss to showcase some of my recent work. 

"Over the last X years we've always been very pleased with Z's work - have always had great feedback. But Z's really stepped up his game in the last 2 months."

These big changes we go through by growing after a traumatic event don't just affect our personal and romantic relationships. There is also the opportunity to progress in our professional lives. And when we do progress, others take note... even if we do not.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Had a pleasant surprise just now.
> 
> My VP called me into his 1:1 with his boss to showcase some of my recent work.
> 
> "Over the last X years we've always been very pleased with Z's work - have always had great feedback. But Z's really stepped up his game in the last 2 months."
> 
> These big changes we go through by growing after a traumatic event don't just affect our personal and romantic relationships. There is also the opportunity to progress in our professional lives. And when we do progress, others take note... even if we do not.


Same here.

I'm about to make an offer on buying a pharmacy.

I finally feel ready.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Same here.
> 
> I'm about to make an offer on buying a pharmacy.
> 
> I finally feel ready.


Congrats!

GP's wife and my X will need new jobs soon.

But no, we won't vouch for them. :lol:


----------



## ReGroup

Congrats Z and Chip!

I for one tailed off at work, but have picked it up within the last couple of months.


----------



## MEM2020

Z, 
This is a great decision. Do you need to take any legal steps to move your D7 out of state? 
If needed, don't skip those. Your stbx may get very aggressive after you leave. 

And if it was me, I wouldn't say another word to her about it. If she raises it, you should be silent unless she agrees to meeting all your other conditions first.


----------



## zillard

MEM11363 said:


> Z,
> This is a great decision. Do you need to take any legal steps to move your D7 out of state?
> If needed, don't skip those. Your stbx may get very aggressive after you leave.
> 
> And if it was me, I wouldn't say another word to her about it. If she raises it, you should be silent unless she agrees to meeting all your other conditions first.


I have the legal right to relocate with D7. Parenting schedule, child support, travel expenses, etc were based on this mutual decision and it was all spelled out in the decree as such. If she were to challenge relocation other things would be void, like me waiving child support.

Once we're established and D7 is enrolled in school there, it will be a huge burden of proof on her part to overturn.


----------



## staystrong

Sorry

but

what does X say when you ask her "You've decided to not live near daughter?"

What does D7 think? Does she perceive you as pulling her away from her mom at all?


----------



## zillard

staystrong said:


> what does X say when you ask her "You've decided to not live near daughter?"


I don't ask.

She has said many things. She needs to push us away to save us. It will be better for us there. She "can't" move. She can't understand why we have to move so soon. It will be too hard for her (X) if we move. etc. 

Story keeps changing. Her actions remain consistent. D7 is not a priority.



staystrong said:


> What does D7 think? Does she perceive you as pulling her away from her mom at all?


At first she was mad that I "decided to split up the family". 

I explained things in more detail. 

Now she is mad that "you two decided" on relocation. And she will be but it's ok. It's understandable. My job is to do what is best for her... even if she doesn't like it. She won't like any of the possible solutions anyway because her parents are no longer together.


----------



## Chuck71

Triggers are unavoidable. I have them maybe once a week but they are fleeting now. I guess you will not see many heavy metal bands in Utaw huh LOL. Right on....pouring yourself into your work. Work can be a huge benefit instead of re-thinking the roller coaster.


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> Triggers are unavoidable. I have them maybe once a week but they are fleeting now. I guess you will not see many heavy metal bands in Utaw huh LOL. Right on....pouring yourself into your work. Work can be a huge benefit instead of re-thinking the roller coaster.


I worked 7 days a week when our separation started.


----------



## Chuck71

Wise move....

idle time is devil's workshop


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> Wise move....
> 
> idle time is devil's workshop


I hated being at home.

Now, I love it.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> I guess you will not see many heavy metal bands in Utaw huh LOL.


No, that won't happen much. lol

My night life will mostly be daddy daughter time like it is here. I will have an abundance of free babysitters though while I am dating (family is great). 

I plan to get involved with a few Meetup groups (hiking, climbing, etc) and spending time with tigergirl to see where that goes. Also helping my brother out with his tat studio and probably rebooting my online t-shirt business on the side.


----------



## Chuck71

Conrad-I could seriously relate to how you felt. The few weeks she pulled the not coming home act...after a couple of those....I dreaded when she would return. Eventually I left. She sends me jokes now. No idea why, well I actually do. But I may send her a joke....a picture of us and appearing happy.

Z-Meetups are a nice gathering. I thought you had to be an expert or eat/sleep/drink the hobby. Most had a genuine interest in the hobby but also brought a desire to mingle with others of like interests. To bide my time I went through my baseball card collection. I can feel I was back in 1983 busting open packs as I got ready for a game that evening. Ahhh...the pre-puberty days....the innocence!


----------



## soca70

zillard said:


> It is a small town, but not tiny. 125k+ people in the area, all the usual amenities, big box stores, university, etc. (but no bustling night life). One of the safest places in the country according to crime stats. Much better schools than where we are now. Really a postcard-perfect location great for raising children.
> 
> She has many excuses, but they are mostly just that - excuses.
> 
> The weather is big, though don't see how it matters much as she spends most her time cooped up.
> 
> The predominant religion is big, though that's a cop out. Who cares what others do?
> 
> I really see it as a fear of facing my family. She won't hold herself accountable so is too worried about what my family thinks of her.
> 
> She could find a job in her field, with effort. She could live in a big metro area not far away with even more jobs and not be close to my family. She could easily give up her work friends - she had no problem giving up her BFF from high school.
> 
> But as Conrad pointed out, she is too distracted to remember a simple parenting schedule. Of course she isn't focused enough to decide and commit to something as big as a relocation.


Currently, the situation has not changed for your X. You and D are still there. She's in regular contact with both of you. Really no need at this time for her to make any plans.

I could possibly see after you and D actually do move, the reality setting in and her re-evaluating.

It sounds like you may be moving to the Ogden area. She could certainly relocate to SLC and be close enough to be an active parent but far enough away to rebuild her own life in a major city. I could see that as being a good solution.

UT is beautiful and would provide a great environment for raising kids. So much to do outdoors. Religion-wise, I've noticed you have a mix of LDS and former LDS so it's easy to find the people you can relate to either way.

I think you have made a great choice for you and your D.


----------



## Chuck71

And if so...check out the Donner Party. My father's people traveled it.


----------



## hope4family

Who needs nightlife with an abundance of babysitters? 

Never saw the "point" of people who value a night life. My version of night life is one of two things. 

# Swing dancing into the AM, possibly blues. Wouldn't mind taking up another style of dancing too. 
# Sitting at a cigar bar, maybe a regular mom and pop style pub. Playing billiards, drinking moderately, maybe a cigar.

I guess the third would be Sosa's Cigar shop in downtown. We have big nightlife, so it does make for good people watching. I order my Cigar, my cafe con leche, sit on a nice rocking chair, and watch the hilarity ensue into the AM.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> # Sitting at a cigar bar, maybe a regular mom and pop style pub. Playing billiards, drinking moderately


This is what I've been doing recently, and enjoy it. I definitely prefer mellow with conversation rather than trying to shout one liners over thumping music. 

A few interesting people beat a large crowd any day.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> This is what I've been doing recently, and enjoy it. I definitely prefer mellow with conversation rather than trying to shout one liners over thumping music.
> 
> A few interesting people beat a large crowd any day.


Same here... there's a little neighborhood dive less than a mile walk from my house. I'll go hang there with my HBM and watch a hockey game or something.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

So X left some stuff here in the closet when she moved out. Boxes of clothes etc. I agreed to store until I had a garage sale. 

Last week when she dropped off D7, kiddo asked about boxes of stuff I had against the wall of the living room - in front of X who was inspecting. I said it's stuff for the garage sale.

I posted an ad on Craigslist just now and sent a text to X. Tomorrow is her day with D7. 

Z - We may be a little late tomorrow, depending on how the garage sale goes. But will let you know when we head out. Is that ok?

Z - Also, is all the stuff in the closet good to sell? Any specific prices?

X - That's fine. And I need to go through the stuff before anything is sold. 

*So she's fine with me dropping off D7 late tomorrow afternoon due to the garage sale... but she wants to sort stuff before the garage sale? :slap:

Z - I'm having a garage sale tomorrow at 7am.

---

She's welcome to come over and sort her stuff early tomorrow AM if she is motivated enough. I doubt it. But if she does she can take D7 home with her. 

If she doesn't come over and sort her stuff - she can pick it up on Sunday and have her own garage sale.


----------



## K.C.

I keep being impressed by you Z, while at the same time being dumbfounded by your X. Sometimes you would think English isn't her first language. Do you perhaps text in a funny accent?


----------



## ReGroup

z's ex wife will get hers.

She's all so comfy now. She doesn't know what awaits her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

This is simply uncanny - the similarities between WSs (as Mavash pointed on in RG's thread).

X - Thanks for the notice. (it's not like she's had since Xmas)

X - I think I'm going to the er after work. The shakes are worse than ever and I'm hour 22 or so of a panic attack. 

X - I'll keep you updated.

Z - Ok.


----------



## terrence4159

why didnt you offer to take her to the er Z?? ohh wait thats right you have a life...my bad sorry


----------



## familyfirst09

Teach me oh great one 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

The garage sale being real means the house sale & move are that much closer. It means I'm serious.

She was likely hoping I would put off the garage sale another week in order to give her time to sort her things. But again, she was too proud to ask. When it became clear I was going forward with the sale, she got angry and resorted to blameshifting through sarcasm ("thanks for the notice"). 

When I did not respond to that, she went further into victim mode and made a sad attempt at a sympathy ploy. 

When I did not respond to that, she poked again ("I'll keep you updated"). This provided her with an excuse for not showing up and sorting her stuff and potentially canceling her time with D7 tomorrow in order to get even with me. 

But as long as I do not engage, this does not hurt me.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Did you tell her previous to today that those boxes with her things in them would be a part of the garage sale happening tomorrow?


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Did you tell her previous to today that those boxes with her things in them would be a part of the garage sale happening tomorrow?


The boxes she and D7 saw in the living room were my things. 

When she moved she mentioned leaving things for the garage sale, but was unclear about all of it being garage sell items or just some of it.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> The boxes she and D7 saw in the living room were my things.
> 
> When she moved she mentioned leaving things for the garage sale, but was unclear about all of it being garage sell items or just some of it.


So you gave her less then 24 hours notice about her things and the date of the garage sale?


----------



## LovingHusband414

Z, it is truly impressive to see how you handle your situation, your D is lucky to have a father like you! I only hope that I will be able to handle my situation as well as you have handled yours. Big kudos to you, bro!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Exact time and day of the sale, yes, that's accurate. I could have done that better. 

Her things are her responsibility though. She has been here every weekend since Xmas and had ample opportunity to sort her things. We have discussed the upcoming garage sale during that time while we spoke of selling the house. 

Two of the bags/boxes are actually labeled "donate/sell" so I was under the impression that no sorting was required. But I wanted to make sure I didn't sell an unlabeled box of items she might wish to keep. 

Last weekend she saw I was preparing for it. But I could have told her then that it was to be Saturday.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> So X left some stuff here in the closet when she moved out. Boxes of clothes etc. I agreed to store until I had a garage sale.
> 
> Last week when she dropped off D7, kiddo asked about boxes of stuff I had against the wall of the living room - in front of X who was inspecting. I said it's stuff for the garage sale.
> 
> I posted an ad on Craigslist just now and sent a text to X. Tomorrow is her day with D7.
> 
> Z - We may be a little late tomorrow, depending on how the garage sale goes. But will let you know when we head out. Is that ok?
> 
> Z - Also, is all *the stuff in the closet good to sell?* *Any specific prices?*
> 
> X - That's fine. And I need to go through the stuff before anything is sold.
> 
> *So *she's fine with me dropping off D7 late tomorrow afternoon due to the garage sale... but she wants to sort stuff before the garage sale?* :slap:
> 
> Z - I'm having a garage sale tomorrow at 7am.
> 
> ---
> 
> She's welcome to come over and sort her stuff early tomorrow AM if she is motivated enough. I doubt it. But if she does she can take D7 home with her.
> 
> *If she doesn't come over and sort her stuff - she can pick it up on Sunday and have her own garage sale.*





zillard said:


> Exact time and day of the sale, yes, that's accurate. I could have done that better.
> 
> Her things are her responsibility though. She has been here every weekend since Xmas and had ample opportunity to sort her things. We have discussed the upcoming garage sale during that time while we spoke of selling the house.
> 
> Two of the bags/boxes are actually labeled "donate/sell" so I was under the impression that no sorting was required. But I wanted to make sure I didn't sell an unlabeled box of items she might wish to keep.
> 
> Last weekend she saw I was preparing for it. But I could have told her then that it was to be Saturday.


Here's the thing, you have every right from what she has shown by her actions to not care how or what she thinks of you. She has shown you that her time is clearly more important than yours and she reaches out for sympathy with odd things (such as this whole "ER" text afterwards) to try and keep things going with you.

This whole thing is about stopping the cycle, be it co-dependency, enabling and so forth. Reclaiming yourself and being okay with who you are. Being free to be who you want to be. With that though, you have to be observant of subconscious 'fire stoking' that can be used to refuel your resolve (of sorts) to the cause.

In this situation, you gave her less than 24 hours notice of a garage sale for things that she left behind on the move out. Yes, you guys have talked about it but you also asked her back to back questions on what she wanted to do with the things rather then just telling her the options. Like you said though, this text could have been done a day or so earlier and on your terms to save yourself redoing the thought cycle of "oh, look at that answer, I figured as much.".

At times these things do work both ways. You do not like the fact that she acts as though her time is more important than yours but at the same time you cannot be doing the same towards her. 

As for the ER thing and your daughter, do you guys have any arrangement when it comes to a parent not being able to make it for there day / time with her? Ex and I have agreed that the other parent has first dibs on watching the kids if something happens to come up .. but we do not have to accept and it is up to said parent to make the arrangements otherwise. For example, if I cannot watch my kids on lets say Saturday I will make arrangements with someone to watch them for me, but then I will ask my ex first.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> As for the ER thing and your daughter, do you guys have any arrangement when it comes to a parent not being able to make it for there day / time with her? Ex and I have agreed that the other parent has first dibs on watching the kids if something happens to come up .. but we do not have to accept and it is up to said parent to make the arrangements otherwise. For example, if I cannot watch my kids on lets say Saturday I will make arrangements with someone to watch them for me, but then I will ask my ex first.


It is required that one parent give the other "first dibs" over a babysitter/daycare. This is spelled out in the decree.

Historically she will not ask. She will just expect me to do it. I'm usually ok with taking D, but not ok with her not asking. This is one of my boundaries written down in a joint session and she has a copy of the list.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> It is required that one parent give the other "first dibs" over a babysitter/daycare. This is spelled out in the decree.
> 
> Historically she will not ask. She will just expect me to do it. I'm usually ok with taking D, but not ok with her not asking. This is one of my boundaries written down in a joint session and she has a copy of the list.


We will have right of first refusal too. I had to really fight her on this one. Her mom is psycho. She's tried to commit suicide twice. Plus she's blind and can't drive. And she tried to claim that I was just punishing her.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> It is required that one parent give the other "first dibs" over a babysitter/daycare. This is spelled out in the decree.
> 
> Historically she will not ask. She will just expect me to do it. I'm usually ok with taking D, but not ok with her not asking. This is one of my boundaries written down in a joint session and she has a copy of the list.


That's good, having it in the decree. One of the hardest things I ever did was say no when I could have taken the kids (and dropped my plans), I felt guilty and really sh!tty at the time. But, it cannot always happen.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> That's good, having it in the decree. One of the hardest things I ever did was say no when I could have taken the kids (and dropped my plans), I felt guilty and really sh!tty at the time. But, it cannot always happen.


It is actually required in this county.

I felt like crap the first time I refused too. 

And I hear you about subconsciously stoking the fire in order to strengthen resolve. Definitely something I need to watch.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> It is actually required in this county.
> 
> I felt like crap the first time I refused too.
> 
> *And I hear you about subconsciously stoking the fire in order to strengthen resolve. Definitely something I need to watch.*


Yes, especially when you come here (or to anyone really) and it's amplified even that much more. You personally know why it didn't work out or why it won't work out between you two, but it doesn't help you when everyone is dancing around the fire in Voodoo masks cursing her every time. It can be a good reminder at times, but it can stimulate negativity as well.

You know certain situations will set her off into doing things you just don't want to deal with, so try to not do them. Now, this isn't to be confused with betraying your own boundaries or being who you are, but at times it's better to just avoid a situation all together for your own benefit.


----------



## zillard

Well, it is true that we teach others how to treat us. Here is proof. I just received an email from X:

1. No er tonight. I'm shaking so bad I can barely type, but I can't afford the $x co-pay. So there might be a trip to urgent care tomorrow or some calls to regular doc on Monday morning. 

2. Will you please bring sputnik over it it will fit in the wagon? It would be greatly appreciated. 

3. Good luck with the garage sale. I wish I had known about it sooner, I would have helped the way we had previously planned. 

4. Please send D7 with her swim gear/sunscreen. It should be warm enough to swim. 

Thanks,
X

Second email:

Also, can you please set aside my pots/saucers and soil? I would like to repot some pothos plants with D7 this weekend. 
Thank you. 
----

She respected my 'no texts after midnight' boundary. +

She finally asked for me to transport her 'sputnik' lamp to her apt instead of implying and expecting. +

She used please and thank you more than once. +

She politely asked for something she wanted me to do, in order to have a good activity with D7 - respecting my boundary of how I would like to be asked. ++

I was ready to sell her pots and soil and 'sputnik'. She had ample opportunity to pick and choose what she wanted to take with her. I will honor her requests though, as they were finally made properly. 

It's weird. Before there were many excuses as to why my boundaries were so hard to respect. Yet as soon as she realizes it is important... she is respecting multiple boundaries at once. Back to back emails with no time to "try" in between. Suddenly remembering things like pots and soil that were of no consequence during the previous months. 

It seems like she did not need the physical list of my boundaries to reference... she just needed to finally decide to respect them.


----------



## ReGroup

Seems like we are starting to unlock some of the secrets of maintaining a healthy relationships. She's adjusting her approach unlike some people I know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

GP, Z, Group let me know if you find out what happened to Conrad. Thanks


----------



## familyfirst09

What?! What happen to Conrad? Lumberman!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch

What? Conrad is a made man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

Where is he? Did he get banned?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

That's good stuff and it's okay to give her credit for it (to yourself) but one instance doesn't make a made person all of a sudden. Boundaries being respected can be an empowering feeling but it can also breed that "what ifs" when new actions are applied to old situations.

Still, if it's kept up on her end it can make Co-parenting easier for all involved.


----------



## zillard

No jumping up and down or tripping myself to pat her on the head or show her she done good. Honoring her polite requests that don't put me out is acknowledgment enough. Nothing else changes.

Garage sale went great. It's amazing how much you can earn selling seemingly worthless items. Some furniture is gone too. 

A pleasant surprise this morning: woke D7 up to go hang signs up and learned my next door neighbor had already hung signs for her own garage sale. So it turned into a big sale with both and drew a lot of people. I sold almost everything and D7 made some money selling things too. She's quite good at negotiating!

One step closer to moving.


----------



## Chopsy

Well done with the garage sale! Hope you had a nice day for it. I need to do something similar.Hope you're having a great weekend!


----------



## coachman

Pretty sure Conrad's banning came from Geek Down's thread. There was some back and forth and all the posts have been removed.


----------



## zillard

coachman said:


> Pretty sure Conrad's banning came from Geek Down's thread. There was some back and forth and all the posts have been removed.


No way. He probably posted nudie pics in the Social Spot.


----------



## coachman

Probably right...much more his style.


----------



## familyfirst09

Lol at Conrad. I wish I would have read what he wrote!! 

Z - this could be the wine talking but you effin rock 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch

The ban is not permanent is it?


----------



## familyfirst09

Oh geez hope not...I take back my LOL....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Went to drop off D7. Sent notice text before we left. X's car in the parking lot but no answer at the door. Called twice. No answer. Left message informing we were there and are leaving.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> Went to drop off D7. Sent notice text before we left. X's car in the parking lot but no answer at the door. Called twice. No answer. Left message informing we were there and are leaving.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Looks like she forfeits her time. Unfortunate for D7.


----------



## zillard

Left X's place with D7. I had an appt with a client (new restaurant) so we went together. Had a good free meal but D7 had no appetite she was so stressed. After refusing everything I finally got her to drink part of a milkshake. 

After the meal and meeting we got back in the car and D7 pleaded to stop at moms and try again. It was on the way home so I did. 

X did answer the door this time. 

X - did you text me? 

Z - yes. before we showed up the first time.

She fumbled around checking the clock and her phone. I stepped out to get D7's stuff from the car. 

When I came back she already nearly in tears. Started apologizing to me. Told me they upped her anti-anxiety meds recently and she couldn't wake up. 

Z - you need to apologize to her. Not me. She was very upset. 

X - you're not listening. I'm trying to explain. You never listen.

Z - I'm sorry you feel that way. I am not ok with what happened this afternoon. (and I started saying goodbye to D7).

X - see! I'm trying to talk to you and you're leaving. Will you at least step outside with me for a minute or are you going to make me wait until we have a mediator?

Z - ok, I'll step outside for a minute. 

She repeats her excuses over and over as I listen. No anxiety meds for weeks. Took one last night. Knocked her out, etc.

Z - I'm sorry you are having those issues. D7 showing up here as planned with her mother unable to answer the door or multiple phone calls is unacceptable. She was so distraught she didn't even want a milkshake.

X - I wasn't up partying all night. That's what you think. You think I'm just up drinking all night. I was up doing dishes. 

Z - what you do with your time is none of my business. 

X - you don't understand. You aren't listening. (repeats excuses)

Z - I don't need an explanation. She does. 

X - You know how bad my anxiety attacks get. (repeats excuses). I told you about the er (etc.). If you had sent me a text like that I would have asked if you were ok. You didn't.

Z - I'm sorry you feel that way.

X - You don't even listen. You just sit there looking at me like I'm pathetic. You aren't staying here. You have no intention of staying here. 

Z - I gave you an opportunity to do what I require to consider staying. 

X - I'm trying! I'm really trying and you don't even care. 

Z - I do. Of course I do. <--ug

X - I'm terrified of losing my baby. I'm afraid if she goes up there she's going to turn into a white supremacist tweeker. 

Z - I'm sorry you have such little faith in me. 

^Immediately I saw that I was getting sucked into the victim role and this was going nowhere.

Z - I'm leaving before this escalates. 

X - This won't escalate. I'm too depressed to escalate. 

I left the porch. Closed the door softly. Said my goodbyes to D7 and left. 

No more stepping outside to discuss things - too much potential for an argument in front of D7. 

No more leaving on the 45 minute trek to her apt until she responds to a text so I know she's there and awake


----------



## 06Daddio08

After a conversation like that, I'd almost suggest getting a VAR for the next time she says things like this. Is she even capable of watching D7 while on these 'meds'?

Also, there is nothing wrong with saying you care about her to an extent, she is the mother of your daughter. It clearly goes no further than that though, you did a good job at not getting roped into it further.


----------



## GutPunch

I thought that was a super job.


----------



## zillard

As luck would have it I just got a giftcard for amazon from work. Var coming up!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch

Hell Z....You are a human VAR

No way I would remember the details like you do


----------



## zillard

On her normal dose she is functional. If she's gone weeks without that means she is taking more often than recommended due to high stress. 

When she is with d7 and I am not around she does good. D7 raves about it. They do puzzles all night, cook, games, etc. 

When I was around she would indulge because she knew I would take care of stuff. 

With this higher dose she better not be mixing with alcohol though. Might be time to get d7 her own mobile phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HappyKaty

I wish she would get her sh1t straight. It's so obvious that she loves the two of you, and D7 is going to miss her fiercely. With that being said, you handled the conversation perfectly. But, then again, you always do. 

Ps...I agree about a cell for D7.


----------



## LovingHusband414

HappyKaty said:


> I wish she would get her sh1t straight. It's so obvious that she loves the two of you, and D7 is going to miss her fiercely. With that being said, you handled the conversation perfectly. But, then again, you always do.
> 
> Ps...I agree about a cell for D7.


I agree 110%!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## K.C.

What's that song though? Sometimes Love just aint enough.. ?

I agree and guess Z suspects the same but love alone is far from enough to make something work. If it was, Mrs.C and so many other Waywards, Walk aways and blahblah whatever description fits would still be with us and TAM would be a ghost town right?

Gah relationships suck. Except the ones that do suck and those actually don't! 

Maybe I should stop drinking.


----------



## Chuck71

KC-Yes the song was done by Don Henley and Patty Smyth (sp).

Z-WTF is "did you text me".....that is like having called ID and asking, did you call me. When I am talking to a co-worker and they respond with "what" (and never do any other time), I raise my BS flag. A-1 job with removing yourself. One would think by now she would realize.....you are not messing around and refuse to be drawn into the game.


----------



## zillard

D7 is home. X texted to tell me there were leaving first. 

X was wearing a new dress. No mention of yesterday. She was very polite and friendly. Told me about how they were both in the pool most of the time. 

I showed her the stack of her stuff by the door.

Z - These two bags were labeled donate/sell so I assumed you didn't need to sort anything.

X - I forgot all about those. Are you doing any more garage sale?

Z - No.

X - well I have a goodwill close to home. 

As she took boxes to the car she repeatedly told me she wasn't sure if it would all fit. She doesn't know where she's going to put it all. It won't all fit in the trunk, etc. I assume fishing to get me to help. 

Z - You have a passenger seat too.

X - It's got a purse in it. 

I let her do it herself. Would have happily helped had she asked. 

Again she said goodbye to D7 multiple times, lingering in between. 

D7 - I don't want you to go. 

X - I don't want to go either, babe. But I have to.


----------



## turnera

That's how people change, Z.


----------



## zillard

K.C. said:


> I agree and guess Z suspects the same but love alone is far from enough to make something work.


I do and agree. 

I've told her already what I would require to stay - prove D7 is a priority, change shifts/jobs, and come up with a plan that is beneficial for all. 

I've told her already what I would require for R. Completely recommit to the relationship and show willingness to do whatever is necessary to rebuild trust. 

Meanwhile I had a good evening last night. Went out with new wingman again. Had some good food. Met some new people and played pool. 

I got cornered by two cougars asking about my age. Twice yesterday was told I look like I am in my mid twenties. Must be the new hair... or maybe my new demeanor?

I danced with one of the cougars. There was a country band and many cowboy hats so I probably stuck out like a sore thumb. I warned her I don't know the moves but attacked it with a lighthearted enthusiasm. Swung her around and didn't worry about the moves or style - just had fun doing it wrong. 

I noticed the attitude made up for the lack of skill. She pulled me out onto the dance floor multiple times.


----------



## zillard

I noticed a difference in D7s behavior last night. 

She got into a cupboard that holds some of her art supplies, playdoh, etc. She pulled everything out and started organizing it. Throwing away some things she doesn't want anymore. She told me she is organizing her stuff to get ready for the move. Told me it helps her feel better so I let her and helped as we talked.

This is the first thing she has initiated to prepare for the move. Perhaps due to the sorting and garage sale. Perhaps due to the no answer at moms. 

Her pie chart was 1/2 miss mom, 1/4 sad, 1/4 happy. She still commented on being angry that we decided on the move. I validated and told her that it is not an easy decision for me or her mom. She asked if I was completely serious about that. Told her absolutely. It seemed to comfort her and she fell asleep smiling.


----------



## 06Daddio08

From one loving father to another I say this from the bottom of my heart, the way you handle your daughter is truly admirable.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> From one loving father to another I say this from the bottom of my heart, the way you handle your daughter is truly admirable.


Thank you.

One of my triggers is X saying she is jealous of my "effortless" connection with D7. 

Being her rock through this, comforting her, helping her talk about her feelings, telling her it is just fine when she says she doesn't miss me during mom time, or that she loves mom this much and me only this much... this is so very far from easy or effortless. 

It is heartbreaking.


----------



## 06Daddio08

I agree, I too have been there on several occasions in different situations. In the early times it was all about filling the gap they felt when there mother wasn't doing as she should.

A lot of it is selfless and goes unseen but it's how it should be and he kids reap the benefits.

It's hard at times to spin the negative into a position for there sake as you cannot make your personal problems there's. While trying not to get there hopes up with expectations that kids at that age can make.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> Left X's place with D7. I had an appt with a client (new restaurant) so we went together. Had a good free meal but D7 had no appetite she was so stressed. After refusing everything I finally got her to drink part of a milkshake.
> 
> After the meal and meeting we got back in the car and D7 pleaded to stop at moms and try again. It was on the way home so I did.
> 
> X did answer the door this time.
> 
> X - did you text me?
> 
> Z - yes. before we showed up the first time.
> 
> She fumbled around checking the clock and her phone. I stepped out to get D7's stuff from the car.
> 
> When I came back she already nearly in tears. Started apologizing to me. Told me they upped her anti-anxiety meds recently and she couldn't wake up.
> 
> Z - you need to apologize to her. Not me. She was very upset.
> 
> X - you're not listening. I'm trying to explain. You never listen.
> 
> Z - I'm sorry you feel that way. I am not ok with what happened this afternoon. (and I started saying goodbye to D7).
> 
> X - see! I'm trying to talk to you and you're leaving. Will you at least step outside with me for a minute or are you going to make me wait until we have a mediator?
> 
> Z - ok, I'll step outside for a minute.
> 
> She repeats her excuses over and over as I listen. No anxiety meds for weeks. Took one last night. Knocked her out, etc.
> 
> Z - I'm sorry you are having those issues. D7 showing up here as planned with her mother unable to answer the door or multiple phone calls is unacceptable. She was so distraught she didn't even want a milkshake.
> 
> X - I wasn't up partying all night. That's what you think. You think I'm just up drinking all night. I was up doing dishes.
> 
> Z - what you do with your time is none of my business.
> 
> X - you don't understand. You aren't listening. (repeats excuses)
> 
> Z - I don't need an explanation. She does.
> 
> X - You know how bad my anxiety attacks get. (repeats excuses). I told you about the er (etc.). If you had sent me a text like that I would have asked if you were ok. You didn't.
> 
> Z - I'm sorry you feel that way.
> 
> X - You don't even listen. You just sit there looking at me like I'm pathetic. You aren't staying here. You have no intention of staying here.
> 
> Z - I gave you an opportunity to do what I require to consider staying.
> 
> X - I'm trying! I'm really trying and you don't even care.
> 
> Z - I do. Of course I do. <--ug
> 
> X - I'm terrified of losing my baby. I'm afraid if she goes up there she's going to turn into a white supremacist tweeker.
> 
> Z - I'm sorry you have such little faith in me.
> 
> ^Immediately I saw that I was getting sucked into the victim role and this was going nowhere.
> 
> Z - I'm leaving before this escalates.
> 
> X - This won't escalate. I'm too depressed to escalate.
> 
> I left the porch. Closed the door softly. Said my goodbyes to D7 and left.
> 
> No more stepping outside to discuss things - too much potential for an argument in front of D7.
> 
> No more leaving on the 45 minute trek to her apt until she responds to a text so I know she's there and awake


I have to say, this was handled very well. I'm getting better dealing with my W when we engage in similar talks. The key as you did here is to exit when they want to suck you in.


----------



## zillard

I struggle with deciding when and how often to inform X of D7s words, moods and behaviors. 

She doesn't open up to X as often and I feel it is important for her to know what is going on with her daughter. 

Yet if I inform her nearly every time D7 says something I'll be in contact with her daily.


----------



## turnera

Some people will set up a joint account/calendar at Google or cozi.com, and you can write in there anything about the kids so the other parent can read it.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> Thank you.
> 
> One of my triggers is X saying she is jealous of my "effortless" connection with D7.
> 
> Being her rock through this, comforting her, helping her talk about her feelings, telling her it is just fine when she says she doesn't miss me during mom time, or that she loves mom this much and me only this much... this is so very far from easy or effortless.
> 
> It is heartbreaking.


IMHO your daughter will figure your X out at her own pace...some day. but it wont be while she is little. Just keep being the rock...doing what is in her best interest. She will appreciate it immensely someday.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Some people will set up a joint account/calendar at Google or cozi.com, and you can write in there anything about the kids so the other parent can read it.


Thank you. Setting up a cozi calendar now.


----------



## zillard

Shared calendar is set up. I like how you can add notes to the calendar items, so I can go back after the fact and input exact exchange times and details of any incidents. 

I also set up automatic email reminders to both of us for child psych appointments and kid exchanges. 

I started a shared journal to keep track of D7s moods, behaviors, etc. I added X to the account and sent off an email informing of the account and how I will be using it - "so we can both be aware of how she is doing".


----------



## zillard

I also sent X paperwork to review for the house sale. We will have to come to an agreement on price, list date, and incentives to throw in during negotiation. 

It will be interesting to see how cooperative she is with this. The house can not be listed until she signs some documents. There is opportunity here for her to stall. I'm hoping she does not.


----------



## ReGroup

Your recent correspondence with her suggests that she'll try anything to delay this as much as possible.

It'll be her last fight for control of the situation.

I hope she doesn't as well. 

She signed off on the ok for relocation with your daughter and regrets it. This will be her last stand.


----------



## Garry2012

Me and X have used a shared calendar for about a year to keep up with sports games etc. Now, it works GREAT to let each other know what we are doing to ensure kid coverage, AND we dont have to talk!!


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> X - I don't want to go either, babe. But I have to.


K she sucks for saying this. Sorry, don't mean to be rude but she totally just put this on you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> I struggle with deciding when and how often to inform X of D7s words, moods and behaviors.
> 
> She doesn't open up to X as often and I feel it is important for her to know what is going on with her daughter.
> 
> Yet if I inform her nearly every time D7 says something I'll be in contact with her daily.


You know I've struggled with this in the past. Have you spoken to the therapist about it? If mum wants to know, she should be asking...every chance she gets.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> K she sucks for saying this. Sorry, don't mean to be rude but she totally just put this on you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes she did. Not something I can control though. It sucks for D7 most as it conflicts with what I've said. 

D still says though that she's mad at US about the move. Can't fool a kid for long with missed vacation time and not answering the door.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yes she did. Not something I can control though. It sucks for D7 most as it conflicts with what I've said.
> 
> D still says though that she's mad at US about the move. Can't fool a kid for long with missed vacation time and not answering the door.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stay the course.

(Like I need to tell you)


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Stay the course.


Difficult, but necessary.

And easier as it goes.


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> You know I've struggled with this in the past. Have you spoken to the therapist about it? If mum wants to know, she should be asking...every chance she gets.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I've spoken with the child psych about it. Told her I want to keep her informed but don't want to overburden her with the emotional things D7 says as she works on herself. 

^ Yes, I know. Her burden is hers. But texting every time D7 says she misses her mom is overboard, and would stress anyone out (not to mention be a pain in the ***). 

Psych said to ask X - leave it up to her. But X wanted exactly what I described above. Text or email anytime D7 is emotional.

I think the shared calendar/journal will work better. I can update whenever and she can choose how often she reads it. Plus it's all in one place and easy to review the history - rather than scattered emails and texts.


----------



## Conrad

And she will NOT choose to read it.

Perfect.

Great job Z.


----------



## zillard

X response to email re shared calendar:

This is a good idea. Thank you. 

I've noticed her (D7) organizing things here since I moved in. Re-arranging the junk drawer, pots and pans, things on the bookshelves.

(so she did choose to login and read my journal entry this time)

------

X response re house price, incentives and list date:

That sounds fine to me. 

I think that keeping D7 in school as long as possible would be a very good idea.

(no pushback on my proposed plan as of yet. Hopefully she follows through with signing docs in a timely manner)


----------



## hope4family

Getting those last few signatures is hard. (IME) Good luck Z.


----------



## zillard

Just returned from an intense joint session (X and I) with D7s psych.

Much of it was between the IC and X, regarding how her childhood trauma has affected her. After the trauma she attempted to put her broken pieces back together - like a puzzle put back together incorrectly. Coping and defense mechanisms as the glue. 

Now those pieces have been broken apart again and everything is upside down and inside out. What worked in the past temporarily will not work anymore. And her current state now affects two more people. Me and D7. 

I brought up the events of Saturday - X not answering the door, resulting in me taking D7 to a client meeting, X's explanation of meds. 

X - I didn't hear the door. I didn't hear the phone. I was completely out. I didn't expect it to effect me like that. The house could have burned down around me and I wouldn't have woken up. 

Z - That's what worries me. Are you taking that dose when D7 is around?

X - That's the first time I took that dose. (dodging)

IC brought up spring break how it will have a great affect on my decision. Told X that there is a troublesome pattern. She has gone from a mother wearing her daughter in a sling to one who doesn't know her daughter's school schedule. Sleeping in and missing joint session. Sleeping in and missing her daughter exchange. X acknowledged. 

IC brought up how X rationalized spring break because she needed more notice. Told X that these are her responsibilities as a co-parent but whenever something happens she puts it on me. 

IC - that won't work anymore. Z is no longer available to you as a spouse.

X said she wishes she would have just ignored everything and made herself happy and never done or said anything (in order to stay together).

IC - I completely understand how you could feel that way. (I remained silent)

She then asked about where I am in the move decision. I told them that I gave X a 6 week opportunity to show me, not just tell me, that she is ready to be involved as a co-parent and can make D7 a top priority. We are 4 weeks in and I have seen that she is trying. She is starting to respect my boundaries, etc and I see that. But there have been too many negative actions that go the other way.

Z - she has two weeks left and I won't take that time away. But I am leaning toward moving. definitely. I don't know what she can do in those two weeks, but they are there. 

X started listing all the things she's been doing. Talking to managers, has an appointment with a dr to get an excuse for some absences, researching school districts, housing, etc.

Z - I didn't know all this because you haven't told me. 

X - I did tell you all of this. You just don't listen. I told you about the doctor on the same day I kicked you out of my apartment! You never listen! 

(on that day she told me about her boss offering to help. A week or so later she requested the intent in writing. After that she told me they were willing to switch her with a doctors note but not that she was seeing a doctor to get one)

Z - will you please put these things in writing, in an email?

X - I asked you to put something in writing and you ignored it. 

Z - I told you I would like to discuss it in the joint session and you didn't show up. 

She said she thinks I'm not putting anything in writing because I know if I don't she can't change shifts and I will be able to "one-up" her. 

Z - I'm confused. First you said your HR or boss needs something in writing. Then you told me you can change shifts if you get a doctor's excuse. 

X - I need both. Both would help. 

Z - Both will help or you need both?

X - They can do it with the doctors note but having both will greatly increase my chances. there are x amount of people going for the shift change.

Z - Alright. I'm not ok with putting that in writing. You already have an email where I said that and I don't feel anything else is necessary. 

X - Fine! Take my daughter away from me then and leave!

It got emotional from here. X went into blaming me for the end of the relationship. For not listening. Being distant. I owned my issues and apologized. X said she doesn't believe the apology. She said I don't care. I told her that I do. I never stopped caring. I will always care about her. X got a flash of anger on her face. IC noted and called it out. 

IC told her I must seem robotic as I remain calm through all this. But this is different. Then I was unhealthy and distant but now I am protecting myself emotionally. She observed that X wants me to open up and get close but then if I do she becomes very uncomfortable so pushes away - hard. Said she's observed it many times through the sessions and that is why Z is now calm and composed. I'm doing what is best for me. 

IC again recommended inpatient trauma therapy. Described it a bit. X shot it down again. She can't afford to take off work. 

IC - well it looks as though Z and D7 will be moving to Utah.


----------



## Conrad

God Almighty.... she's in such deep deep denial.

She really doesn't even see you.

BTW - you should recommend that therapist to anyone that needs one. She demonstrates tremendous perception and that was one helluva session. So many chances to lose control of it and let X steamroll you.

One point of order. She actually DID try to "make herself happy". There's this guy named posOM she turned to for that.


----------



## zillard

It is very difficult to see someone I care so deeply about in such a fragile, tumultuous emotional and mental state. 

As she sat there crying, visibly shaking, I wanted to reach out and hold her. Comfort her. Tell her it would all be ok. But she must find her own comfort now. Her own peace. Everything will not be ok unless she does. 

I teared up slightly as I told her that I hate seeing her crying. But that I have no control over her, her emotions, nor her actions. So I must do what I feel is best for D7 and me. 

This move will be very difficult. The years ahead will be challenging. But I am confident that I can face these challenges with determination and a smile.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> It is very difficult to see someone I care so deeply about in such a fragile, tumultuous emotional and mental state.
> 
> As she sat there crying, visibly shaking, I wanted to reach out and hold her. Comfort her. Tell her it would all be ok. But she must find her own comfort now. Her own peace. Everything will not be ok unless she does.
> 
> I teared up slightly as I told her that I hate seeing her crying. But that I have no control over her, her emotions, nor her actions. So I must do what I feel is best for D7 and me.
> 
> This move will be very difficult. The years ahead will be challenging. But I am confident that I can face these challenges with determination and a smile.


I still think she's going to completely melt down and own it.

You are leaving her no other choice.

And, she hates it.


----------



## ReGroup

Conrad said:


> BTW - you should recommend that therapist to anyone that needs one.QUOTE]
> 
> FML.
> 
> So that's what a good therapist is suppose to do?
> 
> I thought the blank and confused look was part of the repertoire of any therapist.


----------



## ReGroup

FML.

So that's what a good therapist is suppose to do?

I thought the blank and confused look was part of the repertoire of any therapist.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> FML.
> 
> So that's what a good therapist is suppose to do?
> 
> I thought the blank and confused look was part of the repertoire of any therapist.


That's how it looks.

I've done away with several that "sympathized" with my wife - even when she behaved badly.

We should all own our parts - as Z demonstrated with his apology.

Notice how that was "received"


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> God Almighty.... she's in such deep deep denial.
> 
> She really doesn't even see you.


No, she really doesn't. 



Conrad said:


> BTW - you should recommend that therapist to anyone that needs one. She demonstrates tremendous perception and that was one helluva session. So many chances to lose control of it and let X steamroll you.


I really like her. 

IC - there is no good way to end such a deep and great session, so I won't even bullsh!t you. I will see you both again on....


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> God Almighty.... she's in such deep deep denial.
> 
> She really doesn't even see you.
> 
> BTW - you should recommend that therapist to anyone that needs one. She demonstrates tremendous perception and that was one helluva session. So many chances to lose control of it and let X steamroll you.
> 
> One point of order. She actually DID try to "make herself happy". There's this guy named posOM she turned to for that.


I was going to say the same thing about your therapist. I am glad that even the therapist sees that what she is doing destructive towards getting you to stay.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> It is very difficult to see someone I care so deeply about in such a fragile, tumultuous emotional and mental state.


I can tell you are still deeply in love with her.

Your courage in this is admirable. You are simply doing what you must for your future.

I do hope she's able to be in it with you.


----------



## Lifescript

Z, 

It's tough but the right thing to is often the hardest. Your IC does sound good. I hope mine steps it up tonight or I'm going Donald Trump his ass: You are fired!!!!


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> I can tell you are still deeply in love with her.
> 
> Your courage in this is admirable. You are simply doing what you must for your future.
> 
> I do hope she's able to be in it with you.


I am to the point where I can confidently agree that I truly love her, and separate that part from the co-dependently attached part (that is also there and very real). 

This is a very precarious point - where a false R could easily happen, if I chose to pursue it. 

I also realize that what I am doing is the best path for me and D7, under these circumstances (which I can not control).


----------



## hope4family

Keep charge of your emotions "Z". You are doing great. I had a co-dependency trigger this past week, OMG, that feeling returning. I didn't like it at all.


----------



## zillard

Ah, my VAR should arrive tomorrow. Just in time for the kid swap on Saturday. 

Note to readers - don't wait as long as I did.


----------



## coachman

Uh...Z... didn't that ship sail already?


----------



## zillard

coachman said:


> Uh...Z... didn't that ship sail already?


Oh, it's not for anything affair related. It's for conversations about the move and co-parenting that have previously been volatile. Just in case she does try to fight the move before it happens. 

As an added bonus I can use it to review my end of the conversations and pinpoint where and how I need to improve.


----------



## coachman

:smthumbup:

Ok that makes sense.


----------



## zillard

Snippets like "The house could have burned down around me and I wouldn't have woken up" could be useful later.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Ah, my VAR should arrive tomorrow. Just in time for the kid swap on Saturday.
> 
> Note to readers - don't wait as long as I did.


The Force is strong with this one.


----------



## familyfirst09

Tips on usage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

familyfirst09 said:


> Tips on usage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wear a blouse that has pockets.


----------



## HappyKaty

familyfirst09 said:


> Tips on usage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I knew He was coming over, I had mine in the kitchen where we always talked. If I was out, I'd carry a small, thin (cloth) handbag with it inside. I always got fantastic recordings.


----------



## familyfirst09

Conrad said:


> Wear a blouse that has pockets.


Oh Conrad, what I wouldn't give to meet you IRL 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

While out running the other day I saw a minivan pass by, flip a Uturn and pull up next to me. It was friend of mine and her two kids. I worked with her and her husband years ago and we've stayed in touch, but infrequently. They have a daughter a year younger than mine. 

I happily agreed to watch their two kids tomorrow night while they go out and celebrate their 10th anniversary. 

In exchange she offered to watch D7 anytime I have a date. So for an evening next week they are sitting so I can go meet up with tigergirl, who will be in state visiting her girlfriend. I am also having tiger, her girlfriend + SO and my fitness instructor friend over for a bbq next week (all from my hometown except the SO).

I'm looking forward to seeing TG. We've maintained an online dialogue for some time now which has been deep, inspirational and fulfilling. I haven't seen her for at least 4 years and over 10 since we've both been single. 

I am interested to see if there is a connection in person. I mentioned to my IC the discussions we've been having and her trip here. He suspects a big part of her trip may be to do just that. H3ll, I suppose if I were still married this would be an EA. 

It does seem weird to be posting about truly loving my X on the same day as being exciting to see another woman. 

The good thing here - my discussions with TG have been open and honest. We've spoken about the deep bond I still have with X. We've discussed that I don't want to jump into a relationship to feel whole. Also about my conflict considering the move and the opportunity I have given X. 

I see it like this: if X does ever want me back bad enough - she now has to compete on the open market.


----------



## zillard

Oh man. D7 was blowing through a broken balloon making fart noises. 

"Dad! I can fart longer than YOU!"

Then x called to say goodnight. She couldn't get a word in edgewise. All she got was d7 continually interrupting her with speaker phone farts. 

My kid rocks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> Oh man. D7 was blowing through a broken balloon making fart noises.
> 
> "Dad! I can fart longer than YOU!"
> 
> Then x called to say goodnight. She couldn't get a word in edgewise. All she got was d7 continually interrupting her with speaker phone farts.
> 
> My kid rocks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol


----------



## zillard

Ok goodnight baby I lo...pffffffftttttttttppppfffffttttt. giggle giggle. 

:rofl: :lol:


----------



## Conrad

Daughter balloon farts are among life's most satisfying pleasures.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Daughter balloon farts are among life's most satisfying pleasures.


They are. All three of us got a good laugh out of it.


----------



## Garry2012

haha


----------



## K.C.

Love it. Kids are the best.

I get where you are coming from re open market. I don't think it's weird to feel that way about the X but your way of going about things is brilliant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Had parent teacher conference today. It was student-led so D7 went with me (after early release). As we were leaving the house I got a call from X. It rang twice, then nothing. 

X showed up late but the conference went well. We all chatted with the teacher for a bit after as no other students/parents were there. 

D7 told the teacher that she can't watch TV at her moms apt because the channels got removed. X - I wasn't supposed to have those channels anyway. 

D7 - yeah the guy that hooks it up came and he had a bunch of tattoos and mom has a bunch of tattoos, so she got all the channels for free! But then they took them away.

The teacher told us about an upcoming field trip next month. They'll be visiting a place very close to X's apt. D7 asked if she would go. X told her she will have to work that day but will try to get the day off. Interesting as the field trip is during the day and she works nights - currently.

We finished and all walked out together. X told me her phone died when she was trying to call me and that her car charger is broken. She said she was at the Dr directly before the conference and she got an Rx for a different anti-anxiety med. I said, good. 

She had parked next to us and opened my car door to buckle D7 in.

D7 - Dad, did you tell mom about your race!? He's gonna RACE, mom!

Z - No, I haven't yet. I will be doing a 5k at the end of April. If you would like to and can get off work you can have D7, otherwise she'll be doing an overnight elsewhere. 

D7 - He's been running 2.5 miles!

X - Well I used to run 7 miles a day, so beat that! (pointing at me. She's never run since I met her).

X - Wait. What month is it now? It's March, right?

Z - Yes.

X - Well let me know the date as soon as possible. People are lining up to request time off. 

Z - I put it on the Cozi calendar already, I just haven't asked you yet. I believe the race is the last Saturday of April and the Friday before is when you can have D7.

X - What race is this? The PF Chang race? 

Z - No, it's in Vegas. So if you can do Friday I will drive up, do the race Saturday and come back.

Her expression instantly changed. 

X - Oh. Well I was invited to Vegas too. But I thought you wouldn't want me to take a weekend off of D7. 

Z - That's up to you (she still doesn't get it)

X - Well it would be fun. I haven't been to Vegas as an adult. I will email you. (we've been there many times together. She would never leave D with a sitter though so we couldn't do any adult things)

X - Bye D7. I love you. 

D7 - Bye mom. 

X - I love you!

D7 - Bye.


----------



## zillard

After returning home I sent an email to X to reiterate what I had said about the Vegas trip. 

Hi, 

As I said earlier, I will be doing a race at the end of April. It is on Saturday April 27th but I will need to leave on Friday the 26th. If you would like to, and are able, you may have D7 an extra night that weekend (Fri). Please let me know. 

Otherwise I will be arranging a sleepover either at A's or B's. If that happens are you ok with swapping the pickup/dropoff (you pick up D7 Sat and I'll pick her up from your place Sunday)?

Thank you.


----------



## ReGroup

An opportunity she should be jumping on. 

Another chance for her to show where her priorities lie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> An opportunity she should be jumping on.
> 
> Another chance for her to show where her priorities lie.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And to show that, she should not be going to vegas on her trip as it would mean two full weeks without seeing her daughter. My trip is 2 nights away from her instead of 3. 

But it is her choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

Z. She wont get it unless you spell it out. "It would mean a lot towards me staying if you would watch your daughter." But to be truthful, to me, that sounds manipulative, also, you wouldn't have the ability for her to watch D7 if you decided to stay if that was the reason she watched her this once. 

Screwed up. Subtle but screwed up.


----------



## 06Daddio08

There isn't anything to spell out though. Last week he admittedly sprung the garage sale on her a little too soon and to be fair in regards to that situation she didn't really have much option for anything.

This on the other hand is a full month in advance to make arrangements to do what she 'should' feel she has to do.

Time will tell.


----------



## 06Daddio08

In addition. He told her verbally face to face, on the calender AND in an email. The only other thing he could really do is strap her to a chair, prop open her eyes and blast her with the message on a 150" 1080p screen with strobe lights and death metal music blasting in the background.

Oh how I wish I had a screen like that. Ha


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> This on the other hand is a full month in advance to make arrangements to do what she 'should' feel she has to do.
> 
> Time will tell.


To tie back to Conrad's war stories thread, the "should" is my subjective reality. My opinion. It may not be hers. 

I have no right to push that onto her or demand that she respond in a certain way. 

It is up to her to show her priorities. 

Due to her subjective reality differing from mine, we are at an impasse with her work shift. She still says I want her to change due to posOM (because I was so adamant that she do so for that reason before the divorce) and doesn't seem to see that it is about D7 now.

H4F is right - if I do lead her I can not trust her motives. If I don't trust her motives I won't feel that the changes will last.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Due to her subjective reality differing from mine, we are at an impasse with her work shift. She still says I want her to change due to posOM (because I was so adamant that she do so for that reason before the divorce) and doesn't seem to see that it is about D7 now.


Has this come up with your counselor - in this way?


----------



## zillard

It has with my IC. He continually pulls a conrad and tells me to observe her actions for patterns rather than listening to her words. 

In the joint child psych sessions it has come up briefly a few times but not at length. In between I've discussed with that psych when x didn't show.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Pretty smooth kid exchange today, thankfully. Will be reviewing VAR recording and updating later. 

Heading out for a haircut, food, pool, then maybe some dancing w/cougars later.


----------



## LovingHusband414

Z, I'm curious, when you have an exchange, how long do you and your X interact?

When my W and I exchange our son, especially when I pick him up, she hands him to me, says she'll talk to me later, says bye and leaves. No update on the last few days she's had with him, whereas when I drop him off with her I am sure to always give her an update as to how he's been during his time with me. How he's eating, any new actions, etc. I've always wondered why she seems to be in such a hurry to leave when it's her turn to drop him off with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

At first they were very quick and uncomfortable... We were both very uneasy an awkward. As I became more centered, cool, firm, etc she was jetting real quick. 

Now the are from 5 mins to half an hour. Longer when she drops off as she lingers and clearly doesn't want to leave. Short when I drop off because I won't engage. Unless she pulls me onto the patio to talk (I don't ask to talk when she drops off).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

It's tough Z... it definitely is. 

I haven't seen Mrs. ReGroup in a month and tomorrow we are headed for a head on collision (the exchange). I'm gearing up. 

But, the more you think about it, the more it works against you - trying to stay centered is the key.


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> It's tough Z... it definitely is.
> 
> I haven't seen Mrs. ReGroup in a month and tomorrow we are headed for a head on collision (the exchange). I'm gearing up.
> 
> But, the more you think about it, the more it works against you - trying to stay centered is the key.


Observe the conversation. Watch what you both do. Watch your responses. As you watch, you identify and recall what you've learned. Then apply it. 

Just thinking about that during the interaction will make you less engaged in the drama.


----------



## staystrong

zillard said:


> At first they were very quick and uncomfortable... We were both very uneasy an awkward. As I became more centered, cool, firm, etc she was jetting real quick.
> 
> Now the are from 5 mins to half an hour. Longer when she drops off as she lingers and clearly doesn't want to leave. Short when I drop off because I won't engage. Unless she pulls me onto the patio to talk (I don't ask to talk when she drops off).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Does she provide you with any updates?


----------



## zillard

Randomly, yes. Things they did together. Sometimes she sends me pics when they go somewhere.


----------



## whitehawk

Not always the case I know, not that stupid but . Sometime the girls are quicker because between working and having the kids there isn't much time for shopping and stuff.
Mine often races off because it might be her first free Saturday for example in wks.
I've noticed a pattern when it comes to useful free time.

Strange one tonight. I dropped of my d , thought I'm not going in so we talked and cuddled in the car. Ex came to the back door and waved , waited , We took our time.
Later backing out ex was standing at the front window waving me off , big happy smile - W T ! 
She doesn't usually do that !


----------



## 06Daddio08

Think nothing of it and continue on.


----------



## zillard

X texted to say they'd be a little late for drop off. Showed up 1/2 hour past D7's bedtime. 

Z - Did she have her treatment? (asthma)

X - No she didn't. 

Z - How about dinner? 

X - She ate a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on the way back. She's got food in her. I didn't give her a treatment. It's weird, I cooked her bacon and eggs. She wanted bacon and eggs. Then she only wanted bacon and watermelon. And then like she wouldn't eat the watermelon but she would eat some of the bacon. She's just had an odd appetite today. I don't even know what's going on. 

D7 - Yeah, that's because you're not me. 

X - Exactly. Also when I announced to D7 that I feel pretty tired she said, "Well that's your problem"

D7 - It is.

Z - Where's my hug? (to D7)

X - She was good this weekend. We had fun. We didn't do anything fancy. I got new anxiety medication so I'm all off balance. Things are.. I don't know. Getting used to the med.

Z - K. 

I then showed her some forms she needs to sign so I can put the house up. We reviewed and she signed.

X - Give me a hug and a kiss pretty girl. Because you have to do a treatment and go to bed soon. Because you have school tomorrow and we are way late today. We are way later than we should be today.

Z - Yes, it's past your bedtime. 

X - We lost track of time today. Sorry. 

Z - Do you have that $25? (her half of school pics - Yesterday she agreed to a package and said would have money today).

X - Sh!t. I didn't even stop at the ATM or anything. Do we have an appointment next week? 

Z - Nope. Not until April. 

X - I think I have an appt with [her IC] on Monday. After the appt I can come by and bring it over? Is that ok? It's at 10 in the morning, I'll be out by 11. 

Z - Next weekend will work. 

X - Ok. Cuz I have the money, I just didn't get to take it out of the ATM. I'm all scatterbrained today. As you can see. I should just go to bed. My dress shrunk in the wash and it's all a bummer. D7 laughed at me. 

X - Oh so when you do yoga does D7 come up and smack you in the butt when you do plow pose? 

D7 - He does it when I'm asleep. (meanwhile I'm getting the asthma treatment ready).

X - For good reason! She did that to me today. Give me hugs and kisses I gotta go home. Do you want me to put this (juice) in the fridge for you or do you want to drink it? 

D7 - I want to drink it. Dad, mom bought me this!

X - Yeah, I stopped at the gas station cuz holy crap I needed caffeine so bad it was out of hand. I tried to give up coffee and soda, but yeah, it was me. I go insane without caffeine.. at least a little bit. I think I remember trying to cut it out before and you were like "drink some coffee. Just do it. Have a cup of coffee. Please."

Meanwhile I was chatting with D7. 

X - I totally thought easter was today. Ok, I love you baby girl. Have a good night. Quit punching your father. 

D7 and I were playing around. X came over to join in and give D7 a wet willy. After, D7 went for her juice. 

Z - No more juice. It's past nine. (sticking it in the fridge)

X - I love you D7. Have a good night. (then exits).

---

X showed up in the same new dress as last Sunday, but with all her bling this time. Bracelets, necklace and quite literally a flower in her hair. 

I gave D7 her treatment, put her in a much needed shower and tucked her in.


----------



## familyfirst09

How come you didn't say anything to D about the comment "it is your problem". Isn't that being rude? Or were you leaving it up to X to say something?

X seems totally awkward around you, doesn't know what to say or do. In a way, I know how that feels because I don't know how to react to X, but its the opposite where he tries to engage me and I don't know how to react.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

familyfirst09 said:


> How come you didn't say anything to D about the comment "it is your problem". Isn't that being rude? Or were you leaving it up to X to say something?


By her actions, X has abdicated her authority over D7. D7 is beginning to notice the shift in power, and is testing out new boundaries with X.

X can either start being a parent again and reassert her boundaries with D7, hopefully regaining the authority and respect that she's lost with her, or...

She can continue to attempt to placate D7 with platitudes and gifts. In which case, D7 will continue to lose respect for X, and the relationship between D7 and X will end up being based on the boundaries of a 7-year-old, rather than a 30-something-year-old (how old _is_ X?).

It's a power struggle between an enlightened child her emotionally weakened mother... I'm expecting the same thing will eventually happen between my AXW and D13. _THAT_'s not something I'm not looking forward to.



familyfirst09 said:


> X seems totally awkward around you, doesn't know what to say or do. In a way, I know how that feels because I don't know how to react to X, but its the opposite where he tries to engage me and I don't know how to react.


The way Z describes her actions, she almost sounds like a teenage girl trying to impress a boy she likes.


Pb.


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> How come you didn't say anything to D about the comment "it is your problem". Isn't that being rude? Or were you leaving it up to X to say something?


Honestly I was a bit surprised and amazed... and agreed with D7. Then X kept on going with the chit chat. 

D7 is picking up on things I've been doing. Instead of demanding that she do things I give her choices. She can do this or that, but if she does that she doesn't get this. When she chooses and then wants it anyway I tell her no. She made her choice.

I give her input on dinner, but I decide. She eats what is for dinner or that's it. And she does eat it. She's playing her mom. Eggs then bacon then watermelon then PB&J. Who's the parent? PB said it great. 

D7 was correct. X staying up all night and being tired the next day is not D7s problem. "We lost track of time"? No, X did. That is her job. I've been increasingly clear with D7 what is who's job. She has been trying to fix and do more mommy stuff when with me. But that is my job. My problem. Her job is homework, playing, picking up, etc.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> The way Z describes her actions, she almost sounds like a teenage girl trying to impress a boy she likes.


Yes, all that chit chat could have been easily condensed.

It's not my fault I'm late. 
I have an IC appt Monday and wouldn't mind seeing you.
Please notice my dress, it's shorter now.
I'm working out too now - into yoga again.
Please think of me in yoga poses.

Of course it could all simply be awkwardness and she may have been all dolled up to go out last night. Or it could have been another fitness test. Test to see if I really am in more control now - see if I get mad about the tardiness or comment on the getup.


----------



## HappyKaty

Jeez...X is quite the scatter-brained chatter box, yeah? Someome needs to tell her, when you're not sure what to say, don't say anything.

I giggle when I read your transcripts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> Jeez...X is quite the scatter-brained chatter box, yeah? Someome needs to tell her, when you're not sure what to say, don't say anything.
> 
> I giggle when I read your transcripts.


Yes. She is. In certain situations at least. 

It really reminds me of our early dating days. I had those first date jitters, butterflies when around her. Then I found her scatterbrained chatter adorable - a sign she was just as nervous and into it as I was. 

Now I have mixed feelings about it - which is ok. Fun to see her that way and assume it's due to the same. But disappointing to still see her as a nervous 19 yo girl when I'd love to see a confident 29 yo woman.


----------



## LovingHusband414

zillard said:


> It's not my fault I'm late.
> I have an IC appt Monday and wouldn't mind seeing you.
> Please notice my dress, it's shorter now.
> I'm working out too now - into yoga again.
> Please think of me in yoga poses.


Man, it appears she is really trying to get you to notice her and fish to get a response, to notice that she is making "changes"?? Yet still won't own up that it is ultimately her responsibility for being late, etc.



zillard said:


> Of course it could all simply be awkwardness and she may have been all dolled up to go out last night. Or it could have been another fitness test. Test to see if I really am in more control now - see if I get mad about the tardiness or comment on the getup.


You held your control impressively, it is a tremendous example that those of us just starting this can look up to. Keep it up, bro!!


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> She's just had an odd appetite today. I don't even know what's going on.
> 
> D7 - Yeah, that's because you're not me.


This is another thing I've been doing that D7 is picking up on. 

She'll ask politely for a snack. I say, absolutely what would you like? I then provide multiple choice. 

When she is indecisive, "I don't know what I want". I tell her "I don't either. I'm not you. I can pick for you if you like, or you can choose."

This gives D7 choice in her snacks, but within a range that I find acceptable. It works well for us. But if I did not limit her options first, and stand firm, she'd be walking on me eating whatever she wants when she wants (PB&J with fruit juice after 8pm). Nope.


----------



## turnera

You are describing Authoritative Parenting (the most preferred style): Authoritative Parenting - What Is Authoritative Parenting


----------



## familyfirst09

Thanks for the link. I find my D is definitely starting to test my boundaries as of late as well. I'm the only authority figure in her life now so she is testing me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> You are describing Authoritative Parenting (the most preferred style): Authoritative Parenting - What Is Authoritative Parenting


Thanks T. It's nice to put a name to it. It seems I'm on the right track.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> After returning home I sent an email to X to reiterate what I had said about the Vegas trip.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As I said earlier, I will be doing a race at the end of April. It is on Saturday April 27th but I will need to leave on Friday the 26th. If you would like to, and are able, you may have D7 an extra night that weekend (Fri). Please let me know.
> 
> Otherwise I will be arranging a sleepover either at A's or B's. If that happens are you ok with swapping the pickup/dropoff (you pick up D7 Sat and I'll pick her up from your place Sunday)?
> 
> Thank you.


Response from X


> I will try to get the 26th off. I'll request it tonight. And the backward pickup/dropoff is fine. I'll let you know if I can get the day asap.


Good step. Interesting too as sleepover pickup option B, above, is her BFF from high school who she cut off over a year ago. 

Before D7's bday party last month I found out BFF was going to be at the zoo the same day. Sure enough we bumped into her. She told X that no matter what she'd always be her BFF. X looked flattered, surprised, and embarrassed at the same time.

BFF called me this weekend to tell me X friended her on FB again. Also agreed to watch D7 for me if she can.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Response from X
> 
> 
> Good step. Interesting too as sleepover pickup option B, above, is her BFF from high school who she cut off over a year ago.
> 
> Before D7's bday party last month I found out BFF was going to be at the zoo the same day. Sure enough we bumped into her. She told X that no matter what she'd always be her BFF. X looked flattered, surprised, and embarrassed at the same time.
> 
> BFF called me this weekend to tell me X friended her on FB again. Also agreed to watch D7 for me if she can.


Is she good looking?


----------



## zillard

BFF? Yeah. Happily married with healthy boundaries too. 

She called me the day before my bday to wish me a good one. Her husband is a former BS and he was to be out of town on my bday, hence the early call. 

She has a similar mood disorder and childhood as X, but after a lot of therapy she is doing extremely well. It would be good for X to have a friend like her. BFF wants to reconnect. Says she wants X to scream in her face as long as it takes to get her anger out, so that they can then talk.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> BFF? Yeah. Happily married with healthy boundaries too.
> 
> She called me the day before my bday to wish me a good one. Her husband is a former BS and he was to be out of town on my bday, hence the early call.
> 
> She has a similar mood disorder and childhood as X, but after a lot of therapy she is doing extremely well. It would be good for X to have a friend like her. BFF wants to reconnect. Says she wants X to scream in her face as long as it takes to get her anger out, so that they can then talk.


Could be a really beneficial influence.

Kind of the opposite of a toxic friend.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Could be a really beneficial influence.
> 
> Kind of the opposite of a toxic friend.


I agree. I hope they reconnect - whether I'm around to see it or not.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> I agree. I hope they reconnect - whether I'm around to see it or not.


Speaking of which...have you set a date to leave?


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> Speaking of which...have you set a date to leave?


Nope. It will depend on the house sale. 

I'm trying to get it listed by next Monday - timed so that if it sells quickly it will close right around when D7s school year is up (near the end of May). 

We've reached an agreement on timing, pricing, negotiable incentives, and have the paperwork for listing it complete and signed. (Probably just the tip of the iceberg as far as paperwork goes).

Now my end. Finishing up the cleaning, patching and staging.


----------



## whitehawk

familyfirst09 said:


> How come you didn't say anything to D about the comment "it is your problem". Isn't that being rude? Or were you leaving it up to X to say something?
> 
> X seems totally awkward around you, doesn't know what to say or do. In a way, I know how that feels because I don't know how to react to X, but its the opposite where he tries to engage me and I don't know how to react.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not sayin it's right or wrong , just sayin.
But personally I think x is just TOTALLY shell shocked about the whole thing.
Everything that's happened, so fast , and even more so this new z or the way he is with her now . She's just NOT that clinical. It's like she just can't see why the big deal in being so concise on anything , like she just ain't built that way .
I must admit , if I was this way to this extreme with my x even now, she'd probably be trying to accommodate but be just as confused. That just wouldn't be me or her , even under these circumstances. 
Sounds like to, z's x probably expected it all to at least just limbo around for a yr or two .


----------



## zillard

whitehawk said:


> I'm not sayin it's right or wrong , just sayin.
> *But personally I think x is just TOTALLY shell shocked about the whole thing.*
> Everything that's happened, so fast , and even more so this new z or the way he is with her now . She's just NOT , that clinical , it's like she just can't see why the big deal in being so concise on anything , like she just ain't built that way .
> I must admit , if I was this way to this extreme with my x now she'd probably be trying to accommodate but be just as confused because that just wouldn't be me or her , even under these circumstances.
> I reckon z's x still just can't understand what's happened, probably expected it all to just at least limbo around for a yr or two while she sorted herself out even if not together.


I think so too. As was I on Dday. 

I think the fact that I went through with the D and am going through with the move completely surprise her. And why shouldn't they?! I failed so many fitness tests up til then. 

But... Limbo is one thing. Plan B Doormat is different and I'm not ok with it.


----------



## dzd&confused

Z- did you ever express that to her? Not being plan b.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

dzd&confused said:


> Z- did you ever express that to her? Not being plan b.


Yes. I said all of these:

I won't be your doormat.
I won't be plan B.
I will not share you.


----------



## Conrad

dzd&confused said:


> Z- did you ever express that to her? Not being plan b.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What we've all learned is that what we do is more important than what we say.


----------



## zillard

We talked until dawn nearly every night for weeks. Nothing came of most of it. We were both blameshifting our way around the victim triangle like a merry go round.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## whitehawk

zillard said:


> I think so too. As was I on Dday.
> 
> I think the fact that I went through with the D and am going through with the move completely surprise her. And why shouldn't they?! I failed so many fitness tests up til then.
> 
> But... Limbo is one thing. Plan B Doormat is different and I'm not ok with it.



Yeah right . Gee you pass this one z, blew it out of the water I'd say .


----------



## whitehawk

zillard said:


> Yes. I said all of these:
> 
> I won't be your doormat.
> I won't be plan B.
> I will not share you.



No one could blame you z , your too good for that bs mate , we all are.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> We talked until dawn nearly every night for weeks. Nothing came of most of it. We were both blameshifting our way around the victim triangle like a merry go round.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're describing Janie's and my first "reconciliation"


----------



## whitehawk

Yeah we had many an all nighter too. But how weak partners just think it's better to just blow up your family and 18 yrs just because of the last 3 bad ones , is fkg beyond me . 
In your 50 or 60 yrs of marriage , what's 3 matter . Things turn and cycles keep evolving - if you've got the guts to give them a chance .


----------



## dzd&confused

Conrad said:


> What we've all learned is that what we do is more important than what we say.


Agreed, but aren't our words, if spoken with truth, at all meaningful?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dzd&confused

zillard said:


> We talked until dawn nearly every night for weeks. Nothing came of most of it. We were both blameshifting our way around the victim triangle like a merry go round.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get this 100%! I have recently realized that blame shifting is poison and very easy to do. Much more difficult to recognize and own your issues. Which is where I am at though the other half doesn't really get it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## K.C.

dzd&confused said:


> Agreed, but aren't our words, if spoken with truth, at all meaningful?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The words only become meaningful when backed up by your actions. Your word can come to mean something when people see you always back it up with the required action but in itself, words are just hot air.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



dzd&confused said:


> Agreed, but aren't our words, if spoken with truth, at all meaningful?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If change is what you want, words are useless. Actions, not words is what takes WW spouses out of fogs.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



Lifescript said:


> If change is what you want, words are useless. Actions, not words is what takes WW spouses out of fogs.


Not necessarily.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> You're describing Janie's and my first "reconciliation"


As well as my first three.


----------



## Pbartender

K.C. said:


> The words only become meaningful when backed up by your actions. Your word can come to mean something when people see you always back it up with the required action but in itself, words are just hot air.


Words are like currency... You can always make more, but it's really only worth the valuables you keep in the vault.


Pb.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



06Daddio08 said:


> Not necessarily.


Please explain. I don't know of any WW that has come out of the fog as a result of the BS explaining, pointing out what he/she is doing is wrong. Some never come out of the fog even when action is taken by the BS.


----------



## Pbartender

Lifescript said:


> Please explain. I don't know of any WW that has come out of the fog as a result of the BS explaining, pointing out what he/she is doing is wrong.


You have to use different words, than what you're thinking of...

Refer to: "I'm not okay with that."


Pb.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



Pbartender said:


> You have to use different words, than what you're thinking of...
> 
> Refer to: "I'm not okay with that."
> 
> 
> Pb.


Agree. 

I was referring to the fatal mistake most BS make opting to explain and trying to talk some sense into their WW spouses. It won't work.


----------



## HappyKaty

Pbartender said:


> You have to use different words, than what you're thinking of...
> 
> Refer to: "I'm not okay with that."
> 
> 
> Pb.


Even then, words don't mean anything. You can tell someone you're not okay with something, 'til you're blue in the face, but if you refuse to show 'em, you may as well be talking to a brick wall.


----------



## familyfirst09

whitehawk said:


> Yeah we had many an all nighter too. But how weak partners just think it's better to just blow up your family and 18 yrs just because of the last 3 bad ones , is fkg beyond me .
> In your 50 or 60 yrs of marriage , what's 3 matter . Things turn and cycles keep evolving - if you've got the guts to give them a chance .


This is soooo true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

Lifescript said:


> Agree.
> 
> I was referring to the fatal mistake most BS make opting to explain and trying to talk some sense into their WW spouses. It won't work.


Don't I know it.


Pb.


----------



## familyfirst09

Lifescript said:


> Agree.
> 
> I was referring to the fatal mistake most BS make opting to explain and trying to talk some sense into their WW spouses. It won't work.


What?!?! NOW you tell me!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



familyfirst09 said:


> what?!?! Now you tell me!!
> _posted via mobile device_


lol. 

:d


----------



## hope4family

My fatal mistake wasn't trying to talk sense, but to understand her. I recommend, not doing that either. My answers were just as baffling and toxic.


----------



## ReGroup

Lol... You guys should have seen all the explaining and rationalizing I was doing - back in my heyday. It was incredible. 

She would look at me LIKE she was interested in what I was saying. But then respond with like , "let me think about it... I don't know..."

Why couldn't she see what I was seeing? She didn't want to. 

When I started pulling the plug on everything... she started responding with a little curiousity and of course... ANGER.


----------



## Pbartender

hope4family said:


> My fatal mistake wasn't trying to talk sense, but to understand her. I recommend, not doing that either. My answers were just as baffling and toxic.


Oh, Good Heavens! That too!


Pb.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



hope4family said:


> My fatal mistake wasn't trying to talk sense, but to understand her. I recommend, not doing that either. My answers were just as baffling and toxic.


Ha! 

I did it also. Since my W has some issues she needs to work on I'd look at the situation and try to understand the reason behind her actions, what was triggering it. 

The moment that started changing everything for sure was when I found out I was blameshifting A LOT. Conrad pointed it out.

Voice in my head: "oh ****" same thing I accuse her of I'm doing. 

But glad we are all in better places now gentlemen.


----------



## whitehawk

06Daddio08 said:


> Not necessarily.


Yeah I agree and what - your meant to even bother when they're screwing someone else , no thanks , not in this life !


----------



## whitehawk

hope4family said:


> My fatal mistake wasn't trying to talk sense, but to understand her. I recommend, not doing that either. My answers were just as baffling and toxic.



I think after my own , plus everything I've seen around TAM - I recommend just saying. 
ok, there's the door, adi fkg os :smthumbup:


----------



## Garry2012

I too made more than a couple attempts to talk "sense" into her..what a waste of time. I got tired of getting nowhere. I agree WH, I got to the point where its "There the door...go use it and figure out your own issues and mistakes someday...I got fired from that job..and I quit! lol"


----------



## Isuck

You can't talk sense into someone who is not being sensible. It's an effort in futility. I made several attempts to talk sense to my stbxw and it was a waste of breath. She is in a fog and can't see the forest for the trees. It's sad to see someone you used to care for so deeply go seemingly nuts like that, but apparently it happens quite a bit.


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> Ha!
> 
> I did it also. Since my W has some issues she needs to work on I'd look at the situation and try to understand the reason behind her actions, what was triggering it.
> 
> The moment that started changing everything for sure was when I found out I was blameshifting A LOT. Conrad pointed it out.


Yep. I used her affair as a machine gun. Anytime she said anything I didn't want to hear I'd pull the trigger and let loose on her. How dare she talk about any of MY shortcomings when she just did THAT!? 

One thing I was most terrible at doing? Listening.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> Yep. I used her affair as a machine gun. Anytime she said anything I didn't want to hear I'd pull the trigger and let loose on her. How dare she talk about any of MY shortcomings when she just did THAT!?
> 
> One thing I was most terrible at doing? Listening.


Not listening was perhaps my worst flaw. Really listening is so important. 

It's so hard to own up to our mistakes, things we did to contribute to the mess but it's so necessary.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Yep. I used her affair as a machine gun. Anytime she said anything I didn't want to hear I'd pull the trigger and let loose on her. How dare she talk about any of MY shortcomings when she just did THAT!?
> 
> One thing I was most terrible at doing? Listening.


I was very guilty of this as well. One of my biggest regrets.


----------



## Conrad

Lifescript said:


> Not listening was perhaps my worst flaw. Really listening is so important.
> 
> It's so hard to own up to our mistakes, things we did to contribute to the mess but it's so necessary.


THIS.... THIS.... THIS......

Defensiveness arises when we feel personally attacked. We then engage in the very behavior we despise.


----------



## zillard

During discussions like this I wonder if I have done enough to apologize. As I do feel shame and regret for having been so arrogant and defensive. 

I have apologized in sessions, but short, calm and dispassionate. Nothing like the "most heartfelt apology" that Conrad has described once he had his AHA moment.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> During discussions like this I wonder if I have done enough to apologize. As I do feel shame and regret for having been so arrogant and defensive.
> 
> I have apologized in sessions, but short, calm and dispassionate. Nothing like the "most heartfelt apology" that Conrad has described once he had his AHA moment.


I strongly believe that a heartfelt apology is necessary - for your own healing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> During discussions like this I wonder if I have done enough to apologize. As I do feel shame and regret for having been so arrogant and defensive.
> 
> I have apologized in sessions, but short, calm and dispassionate. Nothing like the "most heartfelt apology" that Conrad has described once he had his AHA moment.


I think it's a good move.

It sounds like you were blameshifting - and you despise that behavior in her.

Owning your part could nudge her towards the light.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> I strongly believe that a heartfelt apology is necessary - for your own healing.





Conrad said:


> I think it's a good move.
> 
> It sounds like you were blameshifting - and you despise that behavior in her.
> 
> Owning your part could nudge her towards the light.


And face to face is probably better, isn't it. 

Ug. I feel apprehensive and dread the thought of it. I don't like being vulnerable. Especially now, with her. 

Probably all signs that I should do it. For me.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> And face to face is probably better, isn't it.
> 
> Ug. I feel apprehensive and dread the thought of it. I don't like being vulnerable. Especially now, with her.
> 
> Probably all signs that I should do it. For me.


Read the Vulnerable with Boundaries thread.

Warning - you will likely cry.

It's actually ok in this instance.

It's real regret.

If she tries the elephant stomp, no defensiveness - just get up and walk away.

Experience indicates she won't. This will surprise her like a bolt from the blue.


----------



## Garry2012

Isuck said:


> You can't talk sense into someone who is not being sensible. It's an effort in futility. I made several attempts to talk sense to my stbxw and it was a waste of breath. She is in a fog and can't see the forest for the trees. It's sad to see someone you used to care for so deeply go seemingly nuts like that, but apparently it happens quite a bit.


Couldn't say it better myself.


----------



## Conrad

As long as you're trying to "talk sense into them", you will fail.

"Sense" comes from within.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



Conrad said:


> I think it's a good move.
> 
> It sounds like you were blameshifting - and you despise that behavior in her.
> 
> Owning your part could nudge her towards the light.


I agree. You do it when you are ready.


----------



## Conrad

Lifescript said:


> I agree. You do it when you are ready.


Script is also a "heartfelt apology" veteran.

It fundamentally changed the dynamic in his relationship.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> And face to face is probably better, isn't it.
> 
> Ug. I feel apprehensive and dread the thought of it. I don't like being vulnerable. Especially now, with her.
> 
> Probably all signs that I should do it. For me.


To be honest, I cried just reading that. 

Shouldn't an apology only be made though when you are complete over it? When the sting is gone.


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> To be honest, I cried just reading that.
> 
> Shouldn't an apology only be made though when you are complete over it? When the sting is gone.


No way.


----------



## zillard

This is not my apology to her, just some thoughts this morning:

I acknowledge that I lost some of myself in the marriage. I gave up a lot of things that I enjoy, as well as some core values, in order to try to make X happy. I took responsibility for her happiness when it was never in my control. I have always been a fixer and on some level took her on as a project.

Over the years I could not fix her (obvious to me now that she must do it for herself if she is ever to be happy). This made me less sure of myself as I used her to boost my ego. This eventually caused her to lose respect and resent me because she also expected me to save her.

That image of me as her white knight - which I perpetuated in my arrogance - eventually began to dissolve.

It very much became a parental relationship where I was taking on more responsibility than I should have... in effect training her to distance herself and wall up. To lose trust and security. And when she tried to reach out for comfort, or to connect, I wouldn't let her in. I wouldn't take off my armor, my mask of strength - no matter how fake and silly it was. 

All of which let her feel less and less loved and special. I was no longer chasing her as a desirable woman, but focusing on her flaws and problems in order to try and fix something that I saw as broken - out of selfishness.

This reinforced her self-hate rather than building up her sense of self worth as a loving spouse should.

I definitely played a part in the destruction of my marriage.


----------



## Conrad

Fixing her so she could fix you.


----------



## LovesHerMan

Incredibly insightful, Z. Not many people demonstrate the level of self-awareness that you have. This will be very valuable in your next relationship.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Fixing her so she could fix you.


Exactly. As long as I was making progress with my project I could maintain the delusion that I was the strong, capable, confident hero that I wanted to be.

How incredibly small and insignificant she must have felt being used in such a manner. 

Shame on me.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Exactly. As long as I was making progress with my project I could maintain the delusion that I was the strong, capable, confident hero that I wanted to be.
> 
> How incredibly small and insignificant she must have felt being used in such a manner.
> 
> Shame on me.


There's your apology.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Exactly. As long as I was making progress with my project I could maintain the delusion that I was the strong, capable, confident hero that I wanted to be.
> 
> How incredibly small and insignificant she must have felt being used in such a manner.
> 
> Shame on me.


Yay for you!

This was my revelation, exactly. Isn't it crazy - the POS behavior we share with our spouses?!?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> Exactly. As long as I was making progress with my project I could maintain the delusion that I was the strong, capable, confident hero that I wanted to be.
> 
> How incredibly small and insignificant she must have felt being used in such a manner.
> 
> Shame on me.


I did similar things. It's so important to learn from this mistakes so we don't repeat them in the future. 

Great stuff Z


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> Isn't it crazy - the POS behavior we share with our spouses?!?


Why did I feel that her dishonesty was the worst thing she could ever do to me? 

Because I was a liar and had been lying to her - and myself - for years. 

Why did I feel so rejected by her emotional distance? 

Because I was closed off and rejecting her. 

Why did I feel so small?

Because I was being a child.


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> Yay for you!
> 
> This was my revelation, exactly. Isn't it crazy - the POS behavior we share with our spouses?!?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Removing your focus from them may open your own eyes.


----------



## Isuck

Conrad said:


> As long as you're trying to "talk sense into them", you will fail.
> 
> "Sense" comes from within.


Which is what I was saying. You can't talk logically to someone who is acting irrationally and not considering the consequences of their actions. (When talking about marriages and breakdowns and of marriages). 

I had several one way "talks" where I suggested she was doing irrepairable damage and burning a lot of bridges. But it was ignored. I was trying to get her to see things in the big picture but she refused. She was in selfish mode pretty hardcore and still there I think.

You do have to take ownership of all the issues you had and fix them if you want. It does take two to tango, but if the other side is not interested in making it work then nothing will ever work.

Saying you're sorry is fine as long as you're doing it for your own healing and not as another futile attempt to get the other person back.


----------



## zillard

Isuck said:


> Which is what I was saying. You can't talk logically to someone who is acting irrationally and not considering the consequences of their actions. (When talking about marriages and breakdowns and of marriages).
> 
> I had several one way "talks" where I suggested she was doing irrepairable damage and burning a lot of bridges. But it was ignored. I was trying to get her to see things in the big picture but she refused. She was in selfish mode pretty hardcore and still there I think.


Were your motives selfish in attempting to get her to see that?



Isuck said:


> You do have to take ownership of all the issues you had and fix them if you want. It does take two to tango, but if the other side is not interested in making it work then nothing will ever work.
> 
> Saying you're sorry is fine as long as you're doing it for your own healing and not as another futile attempt to get the other person back.


I think I would be happy receiving no response to my apology. 

I have been at a stand still lately. Not really backsliding, but not moving forward much either. I haven't been able to figure out why. I think this is it. 

I need to get this off my chest. Whether she listens or not.


----------



## terrence4159

woo woo woo you said one of you faults is you listen....big red flag buddy.....im sorry you may not know this......you GAY! (nothing wrong with that what people do in thier lifes is their business not mine) sorry attepmt to get you to laugh


again sorry you have to go through this but hey there is a tatted hottie out there for you


----------



## zillard

terrence4159 said:


> again sorry you have to go through this but hey there is a tatted hottie out there for you


Haha. I actually have dinner plans with one tomorrow and thursday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## whitehawk

hope4family said:


> I was very guilty of this as well. One of my biggest regrets.




But why , who the fk wouldn't go off about an affair . It's about the most hurtful thing he or she can do .. Think you guys are being way too hard on yourselves.
I let mine have it , both barrels , quite a few times and why not . I couldn't have lived with myself rolling over on that one.


----------



## whitehawk

zillard said:


> Exactly. As long as I was making progress with my project I could maintain the delusion that I was the strong, capable, confident hero that I wanted to be.
> 
> How incredibly small and insignificant she must have felt being used in such a manner.
> 
> Shame on me.



z, I think your being "way" too hard on yourself mate. She wasn't perfect either , neither was mine.

We all try to do what we know , think we're best at . Mine did it but it was all wrong for what I needed . I don't blame her though she was only doing what she felt she knew and was best at , and I did it too . I did the job but I did everything else wrong too .
I sort of blame myself but only sort of . I do wish I'd done this , wish I'd done that fore sure. 
But hey , I meant the best I just got it wrong , just like my ex but she left , I didn't. So I'm f'kd if I'm gonna beat myself up about it too much.


----------



## zillard

whitehawk - 

I don't think I'm being hard on myself... just finally honest with myself. I did some things wrong which I regret. 

It would be easy to compare those things to the things she did wrong and say there weren't bad in comparison - so I shouldn't feel bad at all. But it's not a contest anymore. I'm comparing my actions to my code, my values. 

I behaved in a way that I do not like and I do not wish to repeat.


----------



## zillard

whitehawk said:


> But why , who the fk wouldn't go off about an affair . It's about the most hurtful thing he or she can do .. Think you guys are being way too hard on yourselves.
> I let mine have it , both barrels , quite a few times and why not . I couldn't have lived with myself rolling over on that one.


This is rationalizing. 

Sure, my X betrayed me. How terrible. So it's ok if I turned into a verbally abusive, blame shifting hubby for a bit? 

No. It's certainly understandable, but not excusable IMO.

Try this one: Well who wouldn't have an EA/PA if their hubby had done ____ and ____ and ____ for years!


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Try this one: Well who wouldn't have an EA/PA if their hubby had done ____ and ____ and ____ for years!


Love, love, LOVE!


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> This is rationalizing.
> 
> Sure, my X betrayed me. How terrible. So it's ok if I turned into a verbally abusive, blame shifting hubby for a bit?
> 
> No. It's certainly understandable, but not excusable IMO.
> 
> Try this one: Well who wouldn't have an EA/PA if their hubby had done ____ and ____ and ____ for years!


You cribbed this from the Ladies Lounge, no?


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> This is rationalizing.
> 
> Sure, my X betrayed me. How terrible. So it's ok if I turned into a verbally abusive, blame shifting hubby for a bit?
> 
> No. It's certainly understandable, but not excusable IMO.
> 
> Try this one: Well who wouldn't have an EA/PA if their hubby had done ____ and ____ and ____ for years!


That is why, when it comes down to it we should have enforced boundary's sooner. Sure it may have rocked the boat sooner. 

But you were only plugging a tiny hole with the crack in the damn ready to give.


----------



## hope4family

whitehawk said:


> But why , who the fk wouldn't go off about an affair . It's about the most hurtful thing he or she can do .. Think you guys are being way too hard on yourselves.
> I let mine have it , both barrels , quite a few times and why not . I couldn't have lived with myself rolling over on that one.


I'm not as hard on myself as Z. But he is right, it isn't a contest. If I would have just stood up for myself the moment she said she loved another man. Instead of waiting, trying to let her sort it out, and then when she never did, I became bitter and the blame shifting started.

Then finally close to the end when she did "get over him". I was so hurt and pissed that I lashed out any time she did something that reminded me. I tried to fix her by letting her work things out. Rather then just saying "No" and walking away like I should have from day 3 in my marriage. 

I blame-shifted, because in my minds eyes too long of our marriage was spent with her deciding whether or not she wanted me or someone else. I thought I could be the hero, the immovable mountain, I was lying to myself. The truth hurts. 

Sure she has given me plenty of "its not you it's me" one liners since she left. Yeah she did me wrong. But wait, I put myself in this position. Not my ex. I said I do, I stayed while she figured it out, I blame shifted, I became co-dependent, I became "controlling". 

All of that could have been avoided by one sentence on day 3. "We need to get an annulment." I thought it, but chose my suddenly found co-dependency over my gut. 

Sorry for hijacking your thread Z.


----------



## Conrad

You didn't become codependent.

Her behavior helped expose your codependence.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> That is why, when it comes down to it we should have enforced boundary's sooner.


Absolutely!



hope4family said:


> I thought I could be the hero, the immovable mountain, I was lying to myself. The truth hurts.
> 
> I put myself in this position. Not my ex.
> 
> Sorry for hijacking your thread Z.


Fully owning our crap does not in any way diminish the severity of their crap. It allows us to rise above it, let it go, and be content with ourselves.

Don't apologize. There wouldn't be discussion without others jumping in!



Conrad said:


> You didn't become codependent.
> 
> Her behavior helped expose your codependence.


This is true for me.


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> You didn't become codependent.
> 
> Her behavior helped expose your codependence.


Great point. Thanks.


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> Great point. Thanks.


Experience is a great teacher.

I had no earthly idea I was codependent, until I found "the one"


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> Experience is a great teacher.
> 
> I had no earthly idea I was codependent, until I found "the one"


Dude that describes it perfectly. lol


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



Conrad said:


> Experience is a great teacher.
> 
> I had no earthly idea I was codependent, until I found "the one"


Me neither.


----------



## Lifescript

Simple and plain gentlemen, not owning up (really owning up) to our mistakes is a coward move. And truth hurts A LOT. But we are men. We can take it. No pain. No gain.


----------



## hope4family

Lifescript said:


> Simple and plain gentlemen, not owning up (really owning up) to our mistakes is a coward move. And truth hurts A LOT. But we are men. We can take it. No pain. No gain.


People keep telling me, if I don't learn something from this i'll only repeat it again. Lessons learned. 

#Someone saying they love you isn't enough. 
#When they do "just enough" to appease you, do not be content.
#Boundary boundary boundary
#Standing up for yourself doesn't make you controlling.
#"Doing the right thing" isn't about tolerating toxic behavior

Personality traits i've learned about myself.
#I'm co-dependent
#I blame-shift
#My fixer personality doesn't suit a relationship well


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> People keep telling me, if I don't learn something from this i'll only repeat it again. Lessons learned.
> 
> #Someone saying they love you isn't enough.
> #When they do "just enough" to appease you, do not be content.
> #Boundary boundary boundary
> #Standing up for yourself doesn't make you controlling.
> #"Doing the right thing" isn't about tolerating toxic behavior
> 
> Personality traits i've learned about myself.
> #I'm co-dependent
> #I blame-shift
> #My fixer personality doesn't suit a relationship well


Eliminate #3's from your life and you'll start feeling better quickly.


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> Eliminate #3's from your life and you'll start feeling better quickly.


My relationship was full of them. I feel light years ahead. I had one co-dependency relapse. But I am identifying and working through it. If the current therapy book doesn't help, I intend on going to therapy. 

I still might anyway.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



Conrad said:


> Eliminate #3's from your life and you'll start feeling better quickly.


I find myself saying NO a lot lately. And I don't feel bad about it. It's liberating. People will have you do so much unnecessary things for them if you let them know you are a Yes Man.


----------



## hope4family

Conrad (or anyone else), re-post the link explaining what a #3 is as I lost it.


----------



## Garry2012

I have no problem with my kids telling them no, because it teaches them to plan, deal with the consequences of their own actions, and help develop them into well adjusted adults...yet with STBXW i never took that approach-.....until now.


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> Conrad (or anyone else), re-post the link explaining what a #3 is as I lost it.


Taking liberties with Z's thread here, but I think he can handle it:

In Anthony DeMello's "Awareness", he speaks of the 3 ways pleasure gets provided in our lives.

1) We give pleasure to ourselves. We pursue our own interests/hobbies/activites, etc. We make a purchase of something that is just for us. For example, I really "do" need a motorcycle this year

2) We give pleasure to others and the act makes us feel "good" about us. Think of the Mother Theresa example. She - literally - helped millions, but she gained pleasure from it. Christopher Hitchens actually pointed out the "selfishness" of her acts - because she got pleasure from it. Basically, a #2 is giving without expectation of something in return.

3) We give pleasure to others and it makes us feel bad about ourselves. Usually, there's a voice in our head that tells us this, but we override it... "talking ourselves into something"... in exchange for some future return of love, appreciation, recognition, or something.

These #3's - giving WITH expectations - are the ticket to emotional hell.

When the expectations aren't met, we get frustrated, angry, and sow the seeds of our own resentment... and it eventually consumes us.


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> I find myself saying NO a lot lately. And I don't feel bad about it. It's liberating. People will have you do so much unnecessary things for them if you let them know you are a Yes Man.


In any type of relationship. 

I love the pub for this - perfect place to practice saying NO to all sorts of requests, at the bewilderment of others. 

No, I'll just have a coke. Yes, you bought me a shot that I did not ask for. Thanks, but no.

No, I will not be your wingman with those two married women. Oh? Too bad.

No, I will not drive you to ___.

No. You can buy me a beer if you like, but it won't change my mind.


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> Taking liberties with Z's thread here, but I think he can handle it:
> 
> 3) We give pleasure to others and it makes us feel bad about ourselves. Usually, there's a voice in our head that tells us this, but we override it... "talking ourselves into something"... in exchange for some future return of love, appreciation, recognition, or something.


This, guilty as charged.


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> This, guilty as charged.


Doormat behavior


----------



## hope4family

One thing I do hate, is that I am very easy going. Until you do something that crosses a line. But usually at that point in a relationship I get a "wtf your being controlling" and, I fall into it, hook line and sucker.


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> Doormat behavior


I vow, to work on this every day until its gone.


----------



## Lifescript

Yep, 

Used to do a bunch of stuff for the in-laws. Things the old man can do. 

Lend $ to people I would never get back. Nope. 

A buddy of mine asks me to pick him up (boys night out). I used to do it and get home later than anybody else. Not anymore! 

The list is endless.


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> I vow, to work on this every day until its gone.


You're about to feel so much better.


----------



## zillard

Most of us learn about #3s early on in life. In school it is called peer pressure. 

Little did I realize that peer pressure is pale in comparison to what you can receive from a spouse.


----------



## K.C.

Spousal peer pressure. I like that way of looking at it.

Its hell on earth if you give them a blank rule book to fill in as they go. In my case not only did I do that, i then walked myself freely to my cell, locked myself in and then threw away the key as far as I could.

Its nice to be out of the cell but I understand how long term offenders feel when they cannot cope with their freedom and deliberately get themselves put away again. 

In the cell everything is set out for you. No control so no decisions. Once your free, thinking for yourself is challenging and hard to adjust to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## forlorn99

zillard said:


> This is not my apology to her, just some thoughts this morning:
> 
> I acknowledge that I lost some of myself in the marriage. I gave up a lot of things that I enjoy, as well as some core values, in order to try to make X happy. I took responsibility for her happiness when it was never in my control. I have always been a fixer and on some level took her on as a project.
> 
> Over the years I could not fix her (obvious to me now that she must do it for herself if she is ever to be happy). This made me less sure of myself as I used her to boost my ego. This eventually caused her to lose respect and resent me because she also expected me to save her.
> 
> That image of me as her white knight - which I perpetuated in my arrogance - eventually began to dissolve.
> 
> It very much became a parental relationship where I was taking on more responsibility than I should have... in effect training her to distance herself and wall up. To lose trust and security. And when she tried to reach out for comfort, or to connect, I wouldn't let her in. I wouldn't take off my armor, my mask of strength - no matter how fake and silly it was.
> 
> All of which let her feel less and less loved and special. I was no longer chasing her as a desirable woman, but focusing on her flaws and problems in order to try and fix something that I saw as broken - out of selfishness.
> 
> This reinforced her self-hate rather than building up her sense of self worth as a loving spouse should.
> 
> I definitely played a part in the destruction of my marriage.


I had some very similar things with my stbxw. She always would say that I wasnt making her happy and being stupid I would try harder and do more for her to try and "make her happier" I am also responsible for the destruction of my marriage. I do not take any responsibility for her poor decisions and spiteful vindictive behaviors.


----------



## whitehawk

Not that I'm saying I fully get what people are saying here but just on my own situation.
Well it was a long and complicated cause and effect thing on both parts. But I've never been a yes man with anyone and one thing I should have softened on long ago was more yes's actually with ex.
Even though I feel the way I do about her choices in all this , I brought a lot of it on , no doubt about that and carelessly hurt her badly too.
But strangely enough , there are little yes's I still wish I gave her , little yeses that mean big things in the end.
Like yeah I'd love to curl up on the couch and watch that dv with ya , yeah I'd love to come to bed early and talk , or go shopping with you , or yep I'd really like to cuddle you too.
Little big things , strangely enough are the ones that still really eat at me .


----------



## familyfirst09

Its the little things that matter most. Once you go through something like this, its very plain to see. Such an eye opener.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## whitehawk

familyfirst09 said:


> Its the little things that matter most. Once you go through something like this, its very plain to see. Such an eye opener.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



So true ff. I wasn't sure if that made any sense actually so thanks for getting it.


----------



## familyfirst09

Those little things were all I ever wanted in my relationship and he could never see that. Now I long for them even more and he's giving them to someone else. 

Men and women just need to learn how to talk to each other 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## whitehawk

Really ff , wow I'm going to file that post into my brain cabinet for long keeping.
You know we use to do all those little big things, I really loved it , we both did.
Life's cluster fk just got the better of me though.
You know just like you said though ff. I turn around later after all this and see now, during life's cluster fks they'll actually help you , you both need them more than ever in those times.
Strange how I tended to push away instead.


----------



## zillard

I had a bbq last night and cooked up a good spread. Chipotle veggie kabobs, burgers, pasta fagioli spinach salad. Had some cancellations so it turned out only being tigergirl (visiting from out of state) and mutual female friend. 

I thought of canceling but D7 egged me on. "We're going to cancel just because [ ] isn't coming!? I would like if it was only girls!!" 

Right before they arrived X called to say goodnight. 

D7 - Mom. Dad's gonna have some friends over!

X - Cool. 

D7 - ALL of them are girls!!

X - Oh.... cool. 

When they arrived D7 nabbed them to go show off her bedroom, while I finished dinner. She was thrilled to have the company instead of just hanging out with me. They both did great respecting boundaries and we kept it about D7 through dinner. 

After I put D to bed we then all three talked on the patio for hours - relationships, life, co-parenting, etc. We finalized plans for dinner tonight while I have a sitter. I got a big long hug from tigergirl when I walked her out. Man she is adorable.


----------



## familyfirst09

How do you know what X says on the phone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> How do you know what X says on the phone?


speaker phone


----------



## staystrong

> I got a big long hug from tigergirl when I walked her out. Man she is adorable.


Nice Z.


----------



## Conrad

Zillard,

Life coach


----------



## hope4family

Sex rank, level up!


----------



## Garry2012

Sounds like Tigergirl is creating a little be of an eclipse of your past......how nice!


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> Sex rank, level up!


Life suddenly looks better, doesn't it?


----------



## familyfirst09

Good times ahead...proof that better things lie ahead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

"got to go through hell to get to heaven"--Steve Miller Band


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Life suddenly looks better, doesn't it?


Yes it does. 

It was weird too - I saw myself carefully weighing words and phrases used by the women, observing their actions and reactions to me, D7 and each other. 

Younger single Z would have been inspecting and observing different things - completely oblivious to everything else. 

It seems tiger was really looking forward to the visit. She did great with kiddo. D7 didn't know which one had a boyfriend or not (etc) but right away took to her, grabbing her hands and leading her up the stairs. 

The friend made more than a couple comments like "oh a man that can cook too" or this or that (like she had an invisible checklist and was keeping score for her friend).


----------



## whitehawk

The z mans in demand , karma visiting after all your grief and work z .

Hey I'm really surprised though at your d's reaction to other women around so soon , thought that stuff would need a lot longer than this.

Do you think it's just making the most of the moment type kid thinking or she actually gets it ?


----------



## zillard

whitehawk said:


> Hey I'm really surprised though at your d's reaction to other women around so soon , thought that stuff would need a lot longer than this.


I think it had a lot to do with how I approached it. I prepped her days ago letting her know I was having friends over. Told her who and how many. That they were all from my hometown and I have known them since high school. How she's already met them when she was a baby and has even been to some of their houses. 

But yes, her response did surprise me a bit too. She is very shy with some people, even some who have been around quite often. She was warm with both of them right away. The friend has a similar look as her mother (height, hair, etc) but she was more actively engaged with tiger.


----------



## K.C.

Not be a downer but could she be reaching for a mother figure? Just wondered if she is usually shy, could just be that you prep'd the ground well though.


----------



## zillard

K.C. said:


> Not be a downer but could she be reaching for a mother figure? Just wondered if she is usually shy, could just be that you prep'd the ground well though.


Perhaps. I don't think so though. Her shyness is pretty hit and miss, depending on the person. Some people she just warms right up to. Meanwhile her friend's mom, who is super nice, she could care less about.


----------



## zillard

Ok, this is funny. 

I had reservations for dinner at this really nice place that tiger and I wanted to check out together. I told her today and she was excited. 

While I was at work she was at the pool at friend's house and took a corona-type pic of her feet, the pool and palm tree and posted to facebook saying she loves it here. 

I guess she's still friends with X on FB. Anyway, I texted X to let her know D7 would be at her friend's / babysitters so she wouldn't be able to call and say goodnight. 

Next thing I know Tiger is unsure about doing the nice restaurant just the two of us. So I propose another spot and we meet up - with all the people that were to be at my bbq the night before. A good group of people. 

Tiger tells me that after she posted her pool pic to FB, my X called her (she's never called tiger before... ever). She asked T how she was, etc. Said they should get together while she's in town. Tiger told me she had no idea what to say. "Do I say, sorry, I'm going out with Z tonight?". 

She was uncomfortable about it as she does like X. I'm guessing that is why the night went from formal dinner to group meetup. Which is understandable. 

Then my phone rang. It was X. I ignored. But how weird. I told T that X was just fishing to see who I was with. 

The night ended with an even better, longer embrace. I didn't go in for the kiss. Not the time. We are both looking forward to seeing each other in Vegas next month. 

Not 1/2 hour after leaving I was getting texts from T about how I made her day.


----------



## staystrong

Well played - Let it build up nice and steady.


----------



## zillard

As soon as I got home the facebook chat started with Tiger. It has now ended at 2:30 am. 

I told how I was cautious at my house due to D7 - how I intentionally stayed in the kitchen while the ladies and D7 were at the table, etc, but how I wanted to be next to her learning more about her. 

"I noticed, it's good though. Just not the time or place "

"I am thrilled to see you again", etc.


----------



## staystrong

Watch for a change of avatar, people. 

Z's going to start drawing in full color again soon.


----------



## zillard

And then Tiger posts a quote on Facebook, which should be relevant to many here on TAM:

"A peaceful man is not completely free from the pinch of life's aggravations. He simply declines to give them power and refuses to be held captive by them."


----------



## staystrong

Nice. An insightful one she is. Sounds like a keeper, Z!


----------



## zillard

staystrong said:


> Nice. An insightful one she is. Sounds like a keeper, Z!


She most certainly does. But whether she's a real keeper for me... finding out is the fun part, yeah?! 

The exciting challenge before the reward.


----------



## zillard

... but as we're learning - those fitness tests never stop. Getting what you want doesn't mean you can keep it. 

Unless you know how, that is.


----------



## GutPunch

Great job Z.

You have turned into one of those super
aware Chinese monks. 

Prepping the D was brilliant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> And then Tiger posts a quote on Facebook, which should be relevant to many here on TAM:
> 
> "A peaceful man is not completely free from the pinch of life's aggravations. He simply declines to give them power and refuses to be held captive by them."


Great quote...applies to a woman as well....I want to be that woman....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

Ok I don't see the part about topless cougar....

And what is all this about a "fitness test"...I've read it a few times now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

Impressive z,

The X is now fishing and curious. Human nature - it'll drive you nuts.

Tiger knows you are the one that's the keeper.

The story doesn't end here. I sense a competition brewing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> Ok I don't see the part about topless cougar....
> 
> And what is all this about a "fitness test"...I've read it a few times now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A while back it came to my attention that I was somewhat involved with two women with large tiger tattoos. One was local, one was from my hometown. 

The local was tiger38. I drove her home one night and slept in her bed. But I told her I wouldn't respect her if we had sex the first night. We had a date planned 2 weeks later. You'll remember that she bailed on that. 

The other was an old friend from my hometown, Tiger30. We've been chatting online for a couple months. A lot of TAM type talk. This is the one I met up with tonight, after X called her. 

Jerry Springer twist! - The first vacation X took with me was before she moved in. That trip was for Tiger30's wedding (I was a groomsman). She married my good friend and old roommate. This was the trip where I professed my love to X. Shortly after returning home X moved in with me. 

Now X has left me and Tiger has long since divorced my old friend.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> Jerry Springer twist! - The first vacation X took with me was before she moved in. That trip was for Tiger30's wedding (I was a groomsman). She married my good friend and old roommate. This was the trip where I professed my love to X. Shortly after returning home X moved in with me.
> 
> Now X has left me and Tiger has long since divorced my old friend.


At least it wasn't a Maury Povich twist!


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> And what is all this about a "fitness test"...I've read it a few times now.


Fitness Tests


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> At least it wasn't a Maury Povich twist!


Well this thread isn't in the private section, so I have to leave those stories out.


----------



## K.C.

zillard said:


> She most certainly does. But whether she's a real keeper for me... finding out is the fun part, yeah?!
> 
> The exciting challenge before the reward.


You need a name change Z.

The Z we saw before was like Clarke Kent. Pretty cool guy but well, ya know. I am dying to know your real superhero identity. You are totally rocking the cape and undies on the outside look!


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



K.C. said:


> You need a name change Z.
> 
> The Z we saw before was like Clarke Kent. Pretty cool guy but well, ya know. I am dying to know your real superhero identity. You are totally rocking the cape and undies on the outside look!


Ghost Rider?


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> Ghost Rider?


Well I do have a leather biker jacket. Haven't worn it in close to a decade. Might be time to dust it off and send some demons back where they belong.

Now I just need the bike.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> Well I do have a leather biker jacket. Haven't worn it in close to a decade. Might be time to dust it off and send some demons back where they belong.
> 
> Now I just need the bike.


Conrad is a biker. Let's start a bike gang! 

The Conrados! 

Or ex NG


----------



## Chuck71

A Richard Bey flashback occured.......oh damn!


----------



## zillard




----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Well I do have a leather biker jacket. Haven't worn it in close to a decade. Might be time to dust it off and send some demons back where they belong.
> 
> Now I just need the bike.


I just my got motorcycle license last fall... Now I just need to save up that Royal Enfield I like...


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


>


My Kawasaki Vulcan 800 can be had for a reasonable price.

I pretty much only ride the 1600 now.


----------



## zillard

Dropped off D7. X took a while to open the door. 

She had music and lights on, fully dressed. This was different as she's usually just getting out of bed when we show up. 

X - I've been up for little while. I fell asleep on the couch. I don't know what happened. I never wake up at 9 o'clock. 

Z - No, you don't. 

I noticed she had her laptop open on the coffee table. It looked like she had fallen asleep on the couch while looking at our family vacation photos. 

Z - Do you want your water sweety? She got that (water bottle) at the dentist.

X - Did you have a good dentist visit?

Z - I put an update on the calendar. (shared online calendar/journal)

X - Did it go ok. Any cavities?

Z - I put an update on the calendar. (I then repeated the update)

X - Well you and I have a snaggle tooth. haha. The same tooth even! hahaha

Z - She's had allergies and a cough starting last night. She could use ____ and ___ today (meds). 

X - Yeah, I had a runny nose yesterday. I've had the windows open because it's so nice. 

Z - She had a bath this morning.

D7 hugged her mom's legs as she stood there. Then looked at me. 

D7 - I wanna do the run hug! 

She ran into her moms bedroom as I kneeled on the floor while X egged her on, cheering. She ran across the apt and jumped into my arms. We played around a bit, tickling, etc. 

X - Maybe [female work friend] and I will hang out this weekend. 

D7 - Can I hold her snake!?

X - Yeah. I held the snake and he's totally cool. I was going to hold the snake before you held the snake and he's a totally nice snake. 

Z - What are those? (D7 was browsing through the photos on the computer)

X - Yeah, there's pictures on there. I was looking at those. They make me happy. 

She then started talking more about her friend's snake. It reminded her of her old python, etc. 

X - Mine used to just wrap around my leg and chill. He's just like that except he goes straight down my shirt! Every time! (as she reached her hand down her own shirt nearly exposing herself).

I turned and kissed D7 goodbye, who started laughing and playing again. 

X - Kids, do I have to separate you two!?

Z - I love you. I will see you tomorrow ok. 

X - Oh, did you send her swimsuit?

Z - Her swimsuits are already here. See you tomorrow. 

No mention of Tiger, etc. Which I'm fine with.


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> Fitness Tests


Thanks! I've booked marked it 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Ha. I ate chinese. Fortune of the day:

A focused mind is one of the most powerful forces in the universe.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> Ha. I ate chinese. Fortune of the day:
> 
> A focused mind is one of the most powerful forces in the universe.


We just had Chinese as well;

Look with favor upon a bold beginning.


----------



## familyfirst09

Leave it to you to get that type of fortune cookie!!
I'm slowly catching up. You handle all this with such "poise". How do you do it? Or more so, how LONG did it take for you to master it so well? It does seem like you still "love" her if I can use that word. I think Conrad said it, men seem to able to separate from emotions so much better than women. I need to grow a set 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HappyKaty

familyfirst09 said:


> I need to grow a set


You may have difficulty finding a man, then...well, a straight man.


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> You handle all this with such "poise". How do you do it? Or more so, how LONG did it take for you to master it so well? It does seem like you still "love" her if I can use that word. I think Conrad said it, men seem to able to separate from emotions so much better than women. I need to grow a set
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do love her. Part of me always will. But I can separate that from the part of me that wants to NEED her. 

Mastering it? Oh no. I don't know if I'll ever feel like I have. And that is good, as it will drive me to constantly progress. The key for me was separating those two parts. The part that truly loves her, unconditionally, wants whatever is best for her. It is arrogant to think that what is best for her is me. Right now she is not ready to be in a committed relationship. Not ready to prioritize in a way that is acceptable to me. Not healthy. 

If she is to find that path it will be on her own, or it is meaningless and a facade. If she does... I will consider it then, based on where I am at the time. I truly wish the bestest of the best for her. But acquiring that is up to her... not me. 

Meanwhile, I'm talking to Tiger about hotels for Vegas next month. I think it'd be too presumptuous to ask about splitting a room, so instead I'm working on getting a room in the same hotel. 

The future is unknown. And right now, in the present... all is well. Good kid exchange today. A free night ahead of me. An interested party to talk to - on a level I'm comfortable with and really appreciate.


----------



## HappyKaty

Z, your ability to remember dialogue amazes me. It also proves how deeply you care for her - you know, the fact that you listen so intently.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> Z, your ability to remember dialogue amazes me. It also proves how deeply you care for her - you know, the fact that you listen so intently.


I had help from the var today. But I'm finding that my recall doesn't differ much from the recording.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> I do love her. Part of me always will. But I can separate that from the part of me that wants to NEED her.
> 
> Mastering it? Oh no. I don't know if I'll ever feel like I have. And that is good, as it will drive me to constantly progress. The key for me was separating those two parts. The part that truly loves her, unconditionally, wants whatever is best for her. It is arrogant to think that what is best for her is me. Right now she is not ready to be in a committed relationship. Not ready to prioritize in a way that is acceptable to me. Not healthy.
> 
> If she is to find that path it will be on her own, or it is meaningless and a facade. If she does... I will consider it then, based on where I am at the time. I truly wish the bestest of the best for her. But acquiring that is up to her... not me.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'm talking to Tiger about hotels for Vegas next month. I think it'd be too presumptuous to ask about splitting a room, so instead I'm working on getting a room in the same hotel.
> 
> The future is unknown. And right now, in the present... all is well. Good kid exchange today. A free night ahead of me. An interested party to talk to - on a level I'm comfortable with and really appreciate.


Was there a point where you did think you and having your family intact was what was best for her? And best for you as well? You know the difference now, what was the shift?

I'm obviously missing something, my thinking is still warped, I just don't know what it is yet, key lightbulb moments await me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> Was there a point where you did think you and having your family intact was what was best for her? And best for you as well? You know the difference now, what was the shift?


Absolutely! The shift? Really observing her behavior and priorities + acknowledging what I require in order to maintain my self respect. Understanding my codependent tendencies and how they have not made my life better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Chinese too

A man who runs behind car, gets exhausted


----------



## zillard

Well no need to suggest sharing a hotel room with tiger. She proposed it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

My fortune from my last Chinese run. Sorry guys, it's legit.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Well no need to suggest sharing a hotel room with tiger. She proposed it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Final Fantasy XII OST - Victory Fanfare ~FFXII Version~ - YouTube


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> Absolutely! The shift? Really observing her behavior and priorities + acknowledging what I require in order to maintain my self respect. Understanding my codependent tendencies and how they have not made my life better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Z. I need to get through the rest of that book. My goal for the week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Well no need to suggest sharing a hotel room with tiger. She proposed it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Those 2:30am Facebook chats with the Corona pictures always mean the same thing


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Those 2:30am Facebook chats with the Corona pictures always mean the same thing


Yeah what was that you said about they'll let you know...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Decorum

I just caught up on the last 10 or so pages, wonderful posts absolutely wonderful.

Even a little romance thrown in, a great read!

Nothing like it on Amazon, 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Decorum said:


> I just caught up on the last 10 or so pages, wonderful posts absolutely wonderful.
> 
> Even a little romance thrown in, a great read!
> 
> Nothing like it on Amazon,


Thank you, Decorum. Hearing that someone else gets something out of this is a blessing and a compliment. As I surely get something out of maintaining this thread. 

Looking back at what I wrote months ago truly helps put things in perspective. I now know why my IC highly recommends daily journaling.


----------



## zillard

Text from X - Gonna be a little late again today. The Easter bunny was up late.

Z - That's fine. Thanks for letting me now.

X - No problem.

They showed up at 8:15p. 

X - She's been complaining of a tummy ache today, so... we were going to stop and get some food on the way here, but she fell asleep. 

Z - So she hasn't ate?

X - Um. I fed her lunch at like 4, but she didn't eat much of it. She said her tummy hurt. But then she was fine enough to eat powdered donuts an hour later.

Meanwhile I'm helping D7 hunt for the eggs I hid around the house. 

X - Oh, that day that you wanted to know if I could take D7, when you have your race or whatever... I got that day off. 

Z - Thank you. 

X - So I got that off for you.

Z - [to D7] Do you want some wonton soup?

D7 - Yeah.

X - That might make your tummy feel better. 

She helped D7 open her eggs and put on the new bracelet I got for D7 as I got the food ready. 

X - She had Starbursts for breakfast.

Z - Oh yeah?

X - Is somebody planning a new tattoo? hahhaha. (X saw my new book on Ambigrams)

Z - No. One of my [designer friends] made a new book.

X gave D7 kisses and hugs goodbye. 

Z - I'm going to try to get the house listed this next week. 

X - Ok. You look tired. I fell asleep on her, for like an hour. She took my blanket off my bed and made a fort. I didn't even know. Then she was jumping up and down "I want donuts". So she got donuts. 

Z - Donuts and Starbursts, huh?

X - Well. I attempted chicken nuggets and french fries, but she didn't want to eat them. 

*No wonder D7 had an upset stomach. In the past X was always pushing us to eat healthier. Rarely fast food. Vegetarian and vegan dishes, etc. Such a change.

She talked with D7 again and said goodnight twice more before leaving.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Quite the meal plan ...


----------



## zillard

When X comes over to drop off D7 on Sunday nights, all dressed up with bracelets, flowers in her hair, makeup, etc - I often find myself wondering if she is doing this for me or if she is going out somewhere. After all, Sunday night is her only free night with night shift through the week and D7 on Saturdays. 

But I have to remind myself - it really doesn't matter. If she is dressing up for me it is futile as it will not sway me. If she is going out... good for her. She has the right to lead her own private life now and I'd really rather not know what that entails. She won't find me calling people and fishing for details. 

On one hand I'm glad she got the time off work to watch D7 while I have fun in Vegas with tiger. On the other I wish she hadn't, so she would have to pick up D7 that weekend at her exBFF's house - giving them a chance to reconnect. But I see that the latter is my codependent part... still wanting to fix.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> When X comes over to drop off D7 on Sunday nights, all dressed up with bracelets, flowers in her hair, makeup, etc - I often find myself wondering if she is doing this for me or if she is going out somewhere. After all, Sunday night is her only free night with night shift through the week and D7 on Saturdays.
> 
> But I have to remind myself - it really doesn't matter. If she is dressing up for me it is futile as it will not sway me. If she is going out... good for her. She has the right to lead her own private life now and I'd really rather not know what that entails. She won't find me calling people and fishing for details.
> 
> On one hand I'm glad she got the time off work to watch D7 while I have fun in Vegas with tiger. On the other I wish she hadn't, so she would have to pick up D7 that weekend at her exBFF's house - giving them a chance to reconnect. But I see that the latter is my codependent part... still wanting to fix.


All natural feelings and thoughts, most important aspect out of all of it though, your sense of awareness in how you feel and react to it.


----------



## Chuck71

QUOTE
X - So I got that off for you.

Had she just tried these things a couple months ago. Shakes head


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> X - So I got that off for you.





zillard said:


> X - Is somebody planning a new tattoo? hahhaha. (X saw my new book on Ambigrams)





zillard said:


> X - Ok. You look tired.





zillard said:


> When X comes over to drop off D7 on Sunday nights, all dressed up with bracelets, flowers in her hair, makeup, etc - I often find myself wondering if she is doing this for me or if she is going out somewhere.


HE-E-E-E-E-ERE, FISHY! FISHY! FISHY!


Pb.


----------



## HappyKaty

Chuck71 said:


> QUOTE
> X - So I got that off for you.
> 
> Had she just tried these things a couple months ago. Shakes head


She didn't do it for him, or D7. She did it for herself, to make Z happy.

Perfect example of a #3.

AND, that says a lot about her. She has a looong way to go.

Proceed with Tiger Girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

Good catch Katy... I was thinking of the same thing.

She took that day off kicking and screaming.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> She didn't do it for him, or D7. She did it for herself, to make Z happy.
> 
> Perfect example of a #3.
> 
> AND, that says a lot about her. She has a looong way to go.
> 
> Proceed with Tiger Girl.


Yes. Just like when she was telling me she was invited to Vegas. She said she thought I wouldn't want her to take a weekend off from seeing D7. 

That says a lot. Effort is there but the reasons and priorities are jacked.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yes. Just like when she was telling me she was invited to Vegas. She said she thought I wouldn't want her to take a weekend off from seeing D7.
> 
> That says a lot. Effort is there but the reasons and priorities are jacked.


When you're not centered, all you do is flail around.

It's sleepwalking.


----------



## Chuck71

Wanting your attention over her daughters..... speaks volumes


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Wanting your attention over her daughters..... speaks volumes


It goes even further. Not doing it for my attention so much, but to appease me in order to get what she wants... no move. So she can feel better as a mother - without the work.


----------



## hope4family

In theory, she could most probably win you over and into a relationship by proving she is a good co-parent. Like it or not, I am sure any woman who wants to become a part of your family (friend or otherwise) will have to meet this requirement. 

If she can't prove that she truly loves your daughter and wants to raise her in a strong co-parenting manner. Then she is never going to succeed in winning your trust, much less your heart. 

That being said, beware women who put up a good front with your child as an entryway into your heart.


----------



## 06Daddio08

I'm curious to know why there are questions in regards to her loving her daughter or not.


----------



## Conrad

06Daddio08 said:


> I'm curious to know why there are questions in regards to her loving her daughter or not.


Could be that she signed over full custody - with permission to move out of state - so she could cavort with posOM.


----------



## Chuck71

I am still a kid at heart, reason I have always bonded with children. Also reason dating women 10-15 years older than I was so easy. You can be cerebral and a kid at heart. How fun is that!


----------



## 06Daddio08

Conrad said:


> Could be that she signed over full custody - with permission to move out of state - so she could cavort with posOM.


That has since changed, has it not?


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> In theory, she could most probably win you over and into a relationship by proving she is a good co-parent. Like it or not, I am sure any woman who wants to become a part of your family (friend or otherwise) will have to meet this requirement.


Yes, they will.



hope4family said:


> If she can't prove that she truly loves your daughter and wants to raise her in a strong co-parenting manner. Then she is never going to succeed in winning your trust, much less your heart.


Right on the money, hope! 



hope4family said:


> That being said, beware women who put up a good front with your child as an entryway into your heart.


Absolutely. I definitely made note when Tiger repeatedly asked me how I felt about her coming over to the bbq - because of D7. As soon as some guests cancelled and it was to be just her and friend, she reached out and told me she would completely understand if I cancelled. 

I see that as a good sign. Respect for boundaries and genuine concern for D7.


----------



## hope4family

06Daddio08 said:


> That has since changed, has it not?


Nope. 

She could challenge it, but hasn't. 

"Cant afford it" was her words that I recall. 

I dont want to say we all question her love. But her actions to not show a motive thats all about D7. But we are also just a bunch of creeps on a forum.

She hopes "Z" will flake when she passes with a grade D-.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> I'm curious to know why there are questions in regards to her loving her daughter or not.


I see it more as prioritization.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> That has since changed, has it not?


They have both told me he is now out of the picture. I do not know for sure, and as a divorcee is no longer my business.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> I see it more as prioritization.


Oh I agree and I don't question your stance on anything as it's clearly justified. Was simply looking for a refresh on the situation as I wasn't too sure.

I mean, I have no idea why she would openly tell you about starburst and donuts for meals. It shows a complete lack of self awareness, to even admit such things to you.


----------



## Chuck71

or the alcohol talking


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Oh I agree and I don't question your stance on anything as it's clearly justified. Was simply looking for a refresh on the situation as I wasn't too sure.
> 
> I mean, I have no idea why she would openly tell you about starburst and donuts for meals. It shows a complete lack of self awareness, to even admit such things to you.


Right. Plus falling asleep for an hour with no idea what she was doing. Admitting the weekend before that her pill knocked her out so hard the apt could have burned down around her. 

She is not self aware and must trust me.


----------



## Chuck71

with smokers around....not safety aware...........and wasn't D there at the time?


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> with smokers around....not safety aware...........and wasn't D there at the time?


I dropped off D after she finally woke up.


----------



## Chuck71

you should not have to worry about Ds welfare while there but.......i know you do. question does she when D is with you? should she need to? but bottom line.....does she?


----------



## 06Daddio08

Chuck71 said:


> you should not have to worry about Ds welfare while there but.......i know you do. question does she when D is with you? should she need to? but bottom line.....does she?


You're right, he shouldn't 'have' to worry about what little D does when she's with mom. At the same time though, mom is openly letting him know all the F Grade activities that go on while she has little D.

Nothing Zillard can do about that in a sense, he cannot turn his ears off when she spews what she spews. With that though, he isn't reacting and that is commendable.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> You're right, he shouldn't 'have' to worry about what little D does when she's with mom. At the same time though, mom is openly letting him know all the F Grade activities that go on while she has little D.
> 
> Nothing Zillard can do about that in a sense, he cannot turn his ears off when she spews what she spews. With that though, he isn't reacting and that is commendable.


No good would come from reacting. The simple, "donuts and starbursts, huh?" *should* be enough to plant a seed.

D7 told me a few days ago at bedtime that she got to stay up until 4am at mom's. 

I responded by reminding her about the Dinosaur's Divorce book and how it says that she should respect the rules at each house, even if they are different.


----------



## Chuck71

Restraint 101.......... and she wonders why you are headed for UT

with D


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> I responded by reminding her about the Dinosaur's Divorce book and how it says that she should respect the rules at each house, even if they are different.


If only you'd been my dad...I wouldn't be breaking the bank with IC.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> you should not have to worry about Ds welfare while there but.......i know you do. question does she when D is with you? should she need to? but bottom line.....does she?


I can't be sure if she worries about how I take care of D. I do know that she informs me right away whenever she does anything good. 

Texts me to let me know she gave D a bath, or gave her her asthma treatment, went to children's museum, etc. 

When we first separated she would text me to ask if I'd given D a bath, medicine, etc. She no longer does - I believe because she sees I have it covered.


----------



## Chuck71

Seeking praise to HER from you.

What about D's own progress?


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> I can't be sure if she worries about how I take care of D. I do know that she informs me right away whenever she does anything good.
> *
> Texts me to let me know she gave D a bath, or gave her her asthma treatment, went to children's museum, etc. *
> 
> When we first separated she would text me to ask if I'd given D a bath, medicine, etc. She no longer does - I believe because she sees I have it covered.


Would this have to do with the whole "showing she's able" aspect? In regards to not getting you to move?


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Seeking praise to HER from you.
> 
> What about D's own progress?


D is doing very well. Excelling in school. Rarely breaking down and crying anymore when discussing how she misses her mom. Anger is steadily decreasing and happiness increasing in her feelings pie charts. 

She is no longer packing her suitcase days before going to mom's. She now rarely fills up the bag when before I'd have two bags to carry all the toys, etc that she wanted to take with her. 

She is now down to one tiny night light in her room. Down from a small lamp + 2 or 3 night lights. 

It seems she is starting to accept the upcoming move. Many more questions about fun things we can do in the new place with the family rather than logistics. 

She did nearly stump me the other day. "Dad, are you and Mom still friends?"

Z - "We are both friendly. We care about each other and try to respect one another, but we don't do things together as friends anymore."


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Would this have to do with the whole "showing she's able" aspect? In regards to not getting you to move?


Lately it's probable. Previous to me granting her that window it was more likely validation/approval seeking.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Lately it's probable. Previous to me granting her that window it was more likely validation/approval seeking.


There's a term for that, I think.

Starts with a "c"


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> If only you'd been my dad...I wouldn't be breaking the bank with IC.


I'll be yo'Daddy!


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> I'll be yo'Daddy!


And I think I have issues, now...


----------



## zillard

Oh man. This is rough. Just got THE call. X totally breaking down. Apparently found my thread last night and must've had her aha moment. 

She put in for a short term leave of absence to do the inpatient trauma treatment. Oi.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## K.C.

That's big for her. I hope she can get things straightened out. Maybe she should make a thread. I hope she is doing it for herself though.

Your plans remaining unchanged at this point?


----------



## 06Daddio08

Well, that's good for her. Has nothing to do with you.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Oh man. This is rough. Just got THE call. X totally breaking down. Apparently found my thread last night and must've had her aha moment.
> 
> She put in for a short term leave of absence to do the inpatient trauma treatment. Oi.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good for her!!


----------



## turnera

*waves*

Hi Mrs. Zillard. I hope you can see now that moving back to his home town is the best thing for Zillard, your daughter, and maybe even you.


----------



## zillard

K.C. said:


> That's big for her. I hope she can get things straightened out. Maybe she should make a thread. I hope she is doing it for herself though.
> 
> Your plans remaining unchanged at this point?


Nope. I'm not selling the house. Going to stay here and let her move back in when she's done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Nope. I'm not selling the house. Going to stay here and let her move back in when she's done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


?


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Oh man. This is rough. Just got THE call. X totally breaking down. Apparently found my thread last night and must've had her aha moment.
> 
> She put in for a short term leave of absence to do the inpatient trauma treatment. Oi.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It had the feel of inevitability to it the entire time.

Stay the course brother.


----------



## HappyKaty

turnera said:


> *waves*
> 
> Hi Mrs. Zillard. I hope you can see now that moving back to his home town is the best thing for Zillard, your daughter, and maybe even you.


With respect to your opinion, and Z's, I will never agree with this statement. How is moving a child, away from her mother, EVER the best thing for a child?


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> With respect to your opinion, and Z's, I will never agree with this statement. How is moving a child, away from her mother, EVER the best thing for a child?


Anyone who has read Z's thread for content knows that's the last thing he "really" wanted to do.

You know what he wanted.

Same thing we all want.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> Anyone who has read Z's thread for content knows that's the last thing he "really" wanted to do.
> 
> You know what he wanted.
> 
> Same thing we all want.


Yeah, I know. 

Just stating my opinion.


----------



## K.C.

zillard said:


> Nope. I'm not selling the house. Going to stay here and let her move back in when she's done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm worried my sarcasm detector may be broken?


----------



## 06Daddio08

Conrad said:


> Anyone who has read Z's thread for content knows that's the last thing he "really" wanted to do.
> 
> You know what he wanted.
> 
> *Same thing we all want.*


To win the lotto and buy our own personal beach, loaded with perfectly tanned woman and fresh drinks, served on a minute to minute bases? With the body of a Greek God and the metabolism to do keep it while partying 24/7?


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Stay the course brother.


I can't. she's hooked me. I'd be a fool not to take this opportunity.


----------



## 06Daddio08

I hope this isn't some kinda sick April Fools joke. I will Google the sh!t out of you and beat you with a trout.


----------



## Conrad

06Daddio08 said:


> I hope this isn't some kinda sick April Fools joke. I will Google the sh!t out of you and beat you with a trout.


Sign me up for some of that action


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> I can't. she's hooked me. I'd be a fool not to take this opportunity.


You're an ASS!


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> You're an ASS!


LOL


----------



## zillard

Well Daddio now has a good excuse for a fishing trip. 

There was no call from X. The only AHA moment today was mine. :moon:

I couldn't resist.


----------



## K.C.

I forgot the date for first post the second totally gave it away though!


----------



## hope4family

Why do we joke about such things?


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Well Daddio now has a good excuse for a fishing trip.
> 
> There was no call from X. The only AHA moment today was mine. :moon:
> 
> I couldn't resist.


Very awesome!

I forgot about the date. I'm about to send an ultrasound pic to my hubs. Hahaha!


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Well Daddio now has a good excuse for a fishing trip.
> 
> There was no call from X. The only AHA moment today was mine. :moon:
> 
> I couldn't resist.


You're forgiven.

Call like that would have really messed up your 5k run.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Why do we joke about such things?


Levity. If we can laugh and smile in the face of serious situations, it is harder to become overwhelmed.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Ugh. Now I have to waste a perfectly good trout on a face such as yours. I really liked this trout.


----------



## Mr. Katy

HappyKaty said:


> Very awesome!
> 
> I forgot about the date. I'm about to send an ultrasound pic to my hubs. Hahaha!


Sweetheart, you don't post projected pranks on your husband on a website that your husband visits. Epic fail.


----------



## zillard

Mr. Katy said:


> Sweetheart, you don't post projected pranks on your husband on a website that your husband visits. Epic fail.


ahaha :rofl:


----------



## HappyKaty

Mr. Katy said:


> Sweetheart, you don't post projected pranks on your husband on a website that your husband visits. Epic fail.


:rofl:

Shame on my face.

It's time to dye the hair, again. Clearly, there's too much blonde, up there.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> You're forgiven.
> 
> Call like that would have really messed up your 5k run.


Truth. 

Now it's a 5K run, roller coasters, zip line, and dinner at the top of the stratosphere. All activities X would never do with me... so of course I chose not to do them either. 

I'm finding it really is important to do what you like. Even better if someone shares those interests.


----------



## 06Daddio08

I will admit, before I caught onto the April Fools joke, I thought to myself, "Wonder when my turn will be" in regards to the ex finding this place.

Seeing how at the time, it was K.C. and you in one day. Ha.


----------



## zillard

X called to say goodnight to D7. We were out back by the firepit having hotdogs. 

Z - hold on a second. She has her mouth full. Ok. 

X - what do you have your mouth full of!?

D - a hotdog! We made a fire!

X - you've been on a hotdog kick. I guess I'm gonna have to feed you a bunch of veggies when you come over.

--

Really? Cuz starbursts and donuts are awesome for her colon. I surely don't feed her veggies daily... None of those in the vegan meals I've been cooking.

SMH
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch

Haha I fell hook line and sinker.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> X called to say goodnight to D7. We were out back by the firepit having hotdogs.
> 
> Z - hold on a second. She has her mouth full. Ok.
> 
> X - what do you have your mouth full of!?
> 
> D - a hotdog! We made a fire!
> 
> X - you've been on a hotdog kick. I guess I'm gonna have to feed you a bunch of veggies when you come over.
> 
> --
> 
> Really? Cuz starbursts and donuts are awesome for her colon. I surely don't feed her veggies daily... None of those in the vegan meals I've been cooking.
> 
> SMH
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hell, at least she tries to understand. That's more than I can say for Soca's STBX. 

In X's defense (and I hate to do it), I gave Brayden chocolate pudding for dinner, tonight, because he refused everything else. Oy.


----------



## zillard

X - It's a nice night for a fire, huh. 

D - Yes. Too bad YOU can't don't that anymore. 

X - Well there are bbqs around the apt complex. 

D - That's not a fire. That's a GRILL. 

Call ends after goodnights. 

---

D - Me and you are the same, Dad. We're outside people. Mom is not an outside person AT ALL!


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> X - It's a nice night for a fire, huh.
> 
> D - Yes. Too bad YOU can't don't that anymore.
> 
> X - Well there are bbqs around the apt complex.
> 
> D - That's not a fire. That's a GRILL.
> 
> Call ends after goodnights.
> 
> ---
> 
> D - Me and you are the same, Dad. We're outside people. Mom is not an outside person AT ALL!


You should invite her for a S'mores roast.


----------



## Chuck71

Ds comment was worth weight in gold!


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> You should invite her for a S'mores roast.


Doubt she would come even if I did. She rarely came out for our cookouts over the fire or for pool time when she lived here. Never once camped with us in the backyard either. 

We tried a few camping trips in the mnts over the years. X always complained so much that we'd end up leaving early.


----------



## Chuck71

Was she upset the curling iron couldn't plug into a tree?


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Was she upset the curling iron couldn't plug into a tree?


Ha. No. It was the peeing outside. Or the heat. Or the cold. The bugs. The smoke from the fire. The lack of a bed. Etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Now Tiger... Rock climbing, backpacking, snowshoeing, skydiving... 

Even if nothing comes of it I have a fun activity partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Smoke from a fire but can deal with cigarette smoke? Shakes head


----------



## zillard

Yeah. After following kc I really think she's been in a deep depression (on top of the bpd traits and psd) most of the time I've known her. Unfortunate. 

But the sad part is I let that bring me down for sooo long. Before I knew her I was doing those outdoor activities all the time. During the summers I used to camp multiple nights a week. I loved it... sun or snow. Alone or not. I lived for it! Since the marriage I've went camping only a handful of times. And she never told me I could not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

We all did that...........I know I did. To a certain degree our exs did too. You don't notice it until it is almost over or completely over.


----------



## K.C.

What did I do? I' over here minding my business.. 

Yeah being depressed sucks. Living with someone that is must suck just as much.

That you're getting back to what you like doing is fantastic and you D's comment would have made me all gooey inside. She always sounds so adorable.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Now Tiger... Rock climbing, backpacking, snowshoeing, skydiving...
> 
> Even if nothing comes of it I have a fun activity partner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you've read "His Needs Her Needs", you will see one of the five deep emotional needs that a man has is that his woman be his recreational companion.

It's an incredibly attractive trait for your woman to have "game"

That's why Sandra Bullock had such a run at the box office.

Her character in Speed was just the right mix of out of control crazy and out of control fun.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Sandra Bullock and Chelsea Handler skit (NSFW) is hilarious. Worth a watch.


----------



## Conrad

Recreational companionship is also the reason why women who can talk sports get plenty of dates - even if they're a little on the heavy side.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Recreational companionship is also the reason why women who can talk sports get plenty of dates - even if they're a little on the heavy side.


:iagree:

I'll admit that was part of the appeal of "Hot Blonde Mom", amongst other things... She's a big hockey fan, she drinks beer and she's into motorcycles.

It's like Z said about Tigeress... Even though nothing's really come of it, romantically speaking, she's a great friend and a fun activity partner. And that's pretty good right now.


Pb.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I'll admit that was part of the appeal of "Hot Blonde Mom", amongst other things... She's a big hockey fan, she drinks beer and she's into motorcycles.
> 
> It's like Z said about Tigeress... Even though nothing's really come of it, romantically speaking, she's a great friend and a fun activity partner. And that's pretty good right now.
> 
> 
> Pb.


I think there's a good chance something comes of it - very soon.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> If you've read "His Needs Her Needs", you will see one of the five deep emotional needs that a man has is that his woman be his recreational companion.


I think the same holds true for women, or some women. I cannot be with a man that doesn't l.o.v.e. sports. I've tried. I get incredibly frustrated when a guy asks me what a "flea flicker" is.


----------



## Chuck71

Have to agree....females who like sports are a definite plus. She reads my articles and asks questions. Just like I do not care to check her tires and oil just for the heck of it. If there is something, who knows? But if we are still there by fall.....she loves UT Vols....I detest them. Interesting possibility


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> Have to agree....females who like sports are a definite plus. She reads my articles and asks questions. Just like I do not care to check her tires and oil just for the heck of it. If there is something, who knows? But if we are still there by fall.....she loves UT Vols....I detest them. Interesting possibility


Are you a Commododore fan?


----------



## K.C.

HappyKaty said:


> I think the same holds true for women, or some women. I cannot be with a man that doesn't l.o.v.e. sports. I've tried. I get incredibly frustrated when a guy asks me what a "flea flicker" is.


If I move to the US I have so much to learn about your sports, I can just about follow NFL, the rest?.

Finding a lovely lady to teach me when/if I get there would be really cool.


----------



## Chuck71

Not a Vanderbilt fan. Not much into college football anymore. But if I had to pick one....Boise St.


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> Not a Vanderbilt fan. Not much into college football anymore. But if I had to pick one....Boise St.


Too corrupt for you?


----------



## Chuck71

KC you would enjoy baseball....the simple purity. Sad it is tainted now with greed, steroids, fact some teams suit up a minor league team but expect fans to pay major league prices


----------



## Chuck71

LOL no.....Vanderbilt sometimes fields a good basketball team. As for football...they are repeated Ws for the other programs. 

Corruption!? I never was an SMU fan....well when Craig James and Eric ****erson was there maybe.


----------



## K.C.

I love all sports but only American one really I know a bean about is NFL which I really enjoyed last season.

Expensive to get decent coverage of anything here so will be a while before its on my radar again tbh though.


----------



## Chuck71

KC-My team will be playing in UK this fall. Pittsburgh Steelers play Minnesota Vikings in October (I think....full schedule not released yet)


----------



## HappyKaty

Chuck71 said:


> KC-My team will be playing in UK this fall. Pittsburgh Steelers play Minnesota Vikings in October (I think....full schedule not released yet)


Your team = Pittsburgh or Minnesota?


----------



## Chuck71

Oh....black n gold Pittsburgh


----------



## HappyKaty

Chuck71 said:


> Oh....black n gold Pittsburgh


Sad face.

Every time I meet another Roethlisberger fan, I die a little more, inside.


----------



## Chuck71

LOL keep in mind....i loved Pittsburgh before he came and will after. i was not too kind to Ben after the Millidgeville episode on 2010.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> I think the same holds true for women, or some women. I cannot be with a man that doesn't l.o.v.e. sports. I've tried. I get incredibly frustrated when a guy asks me what a "flea flicker" is.


What's a flea flicker? Is that polo?


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> What's a flea flicker? Is that polo?


Is that something a dog does?


----------



## HappyKaty

Go to hell. Both of you!


----------



## Chuck71

or an employee at a vet's office?


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> Go to hell. Both of you!


I thought dogs were too busy flicking something else.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> or an employee at a vet's office?


no. that's a Ticker.


----------



## Chuck71

so a french poodle would see a french tick(l)er?


----------



## hope4family

HappyKaty said:


> Sad face.
> 
> Every time I meet another Roethlisberger fan, I die a little more, inside.


I was heckled to this day on a quote I made on fantasy draft day. 

"Roethlisberger will never win a super bowl." 

So live a little more.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> If you've read "His Needs Her Needs", you will see one of the five deep emotional needs that a man has is that his woman be his recreational companion.
> 
> It's an incredibly attractive trait for your woman to have "game"
> 
> That's why Sandra Bullock had such a run at the box office.
> 
> Her character in Speed was just the right mix of out of control crazy and out of control fun.


I have not read it, but this makes perfect sense. 

Every time X would decline or complain about these things I felt rejected in a way. And the resentment built. Part of that of course was the insecure codependent attachment as well.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I have not read it, but this makes perfect sense.
> 
> Every time X would decline or complain about these things I felt rejected in a way. And the resentment built. Part of that of course was the insecure codependent attachment as well.


Keep in mind ladies, events have a way of letting your man know if you're "merely faking" your love of sports. For example, you might think your CF seat is safe, but pay attention.

Samsung Smart TV Opening Week | [email protected]: Kozma's solo homer hits unsuspecting fan - Video | cardinals.com: Multimedia


----------



## Conrad

The guy also gets a huge alpha dog demerit for letting that happen.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I have not read it, but this makes perfect sense.
> 
> Every time X would decline or complain about these things I felt rejected in a way. And the resentment built. Part of that of course was the insecure codependent attachment as well.


Zillard,

His Needs Her Needs would be a good read for you now.

Willard Harley is the author.

It's kind of the playbook of what to do to make sure her needs continue to be met, no matter what she says out loud.


----------



## turnera

Did I miss something? Why is Zillard needing to meet STBX's needs?


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Did I miss something? Why is Zillard needing to meet STBX's needs?


This is for the next one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> This is for the next one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just explaining to him that Tigertat 30's appeal in this area is a valuable find.


----------



## turnera

Oh. Nevermind, carry on. And I agree, EVERY person should have to read HNHN before getting involved with someone.


----------



## hope4family

turnera said:


> Oh. Nevermind, carry on. And I agree, EVERY person should have to read HNHN before getting involved with someone.


This forum has quadrupled my reading lists. As if the Bible wasn't easy enough.


----------



## zillard

Another joint session with X and D7's IC this morning. 

X came in cheerful and chatty - different for these visits. We went over how D has been doing. She's been steadily improving and is now less sassy with her mother during her visits. We discussed how kid swaps have been much better the last couple weeks. X mentioned how she now is comfortable lingering a while at my house when she drops off, having fun with D. 

IC asked about the move and X's work. X said she is coming to terms with us moving out of state. Also that her shift transfer was denied so she can't go to days until August. 

We spoke of logistics of interstate visitation. How it will need to work around Xs PTO as night shift daycare would be troublesome. She said she is planning to go through with moving to days in August due to this.. even though we'll be gone. 

IC asked about where X will stay if she comes to us to visit D. She said she can do hotels and that she's also been talking to Tiger about her place. ?? Whoa. Not sure what to think about that. Giving it time to process.

After some more discussion I gave my heartfelt apology. From deep within. True remorse. I started crying right as I started. Told her I do not require a response. That I'm doing this for my healing. It was great to get it off my chest. 

By the end all three of us were in tears. Even the IC, who stood up and gave me a big hug. IC said she didn't have words to express how great it was what I had just done. How it was truly from my soul and my life will be blessed for having the courage to do it. 

She asked X how she felt about it. X said she felt relief. Like she finally felt important enough for me to say it. 

_____

Text a few hours later:

X - Thank you for saying what you did with IC today. It really meant a lot. You have no idea. 

Z - Thank you for listening. I should have earlier but I was not ready. 

X - I understand. This is big heavy ship. I'm glad we could come to this point, despite the circumstances. It's good for all of us, D7 included.


----------



## GutPunch

zillard said:


> She said she can do hotels and that she's also been talking to Tiger about her place.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Wait!....What?


----------



## zillard

Oh, during the joint session the IC commented that I'm probably done with my own IC very soon. 

I told her I recently graduated from him, but I am not done. Told her how I'm starting self-therapy with IFS. She was impressed and asked where I heard about it. I told her it was from an online support group that has helped me immensely.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Another joint session with X and D7's IC this morning.
> 
> X came in cheerful and chatty - different for these visits. We went over how D has been doing. She's been steadily improving and is now less sassy with her mother during her visits. We discussed how kid swaps have been much better the last couple weeks. X mentioned how she now is comfortable lingering a while at my house when she drops off, having fun with D.
> 
> IC asked about the move and X's work. X said she is coming to terms with us moving out of state. Also that her shift transfer was denied so she can't go to days until August.
> 
> We spoke of logistics of interstate visitation. How it will need to work around Xs PTO as night shift daycare would be troublesome. She said she is planning to go through with moving to days in August due to this.. even though we'll be gone.
> 
> IC asked about where X will stay if she comes to us to visit D. She said she can do hotels and that she's also been talking to Tiger about her place. ?? Whoa. Not sure what to think about that. Giving it time to process.
> 
> After some more discussion I gave my heartfelt apology. From deep within. True remorse. I started crying right as I started. Told her I do not require a response. That I'm doing this for my healing. It was great to get it off my chest.
> 
> By the end all three of us were in tears. Even the IC, who stood up and gave me a big hug. IC said she didn't have words to express how great it was what I had just done. How it was truly from my soul and my life will be blessed for having the courage to do it.
> 
> She asked X how she felt about it. X said she felt relief. Like she finally felt important enough for me to say it.
> 
> _____
> 
> Text a few hours later:
> 
> X - Thank you for saying what you did with IC today. It really meant a lot. You have no idea.
> 
> Z - Thank you for listening. I should have earlier but I was not ready.
> 
> X - I understand. This is big heavy ship. I'm glad we could come to this point, despite the circumstances. It's good for all of us, D7 included.


Good man.

You got my attention with X talking about staying @Tiger's place.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Good man.
> 
> You got my attention with X talking about staying @Tiger's place.


Jerry Springer, much!? 

I have been open with Tiger about how I wish X no ill will and will always care about her. She seemed to highly respect that. 

If X did end up staying with T to visit with D... would I be ok with that? I think so. It's not in my control and not my decision. T's house would be a good environment for D. If those two can get along well, even better. 

Curious to see if that would change if other things do.


----------



## GutPunch

C*ckblock


----------



## HappyKaty

GutPunch said:


> C*ckblock


Oh, X is well aware of what she's doing.


----------



## zillard

GutPunch said:


> C*ckblock


I also just found out, by accident, that X has either stepped it up with posOM or has a new beau. 

Maybe that is why she is cheerful all of a sudden. She's getting the, um, validation she craves again.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I also just found out, by accident, that X has either stepped it up with posOM or has a new beau.
> 
> Maybe that is why she is cheerful all of a sudden. She's getting the, um, validation she craves again.


No real surprise.

You showed her the doorway, and she chose the door.

This time.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> No real surprise.
> 
> You showed her the doorway, and she chose the door.
> 
> This time.


The surprise for me - I actually feel ok with that. 

I hope she doesn't let it distract her from her progress though. Unfortunately I think she probably will. 

C'est la vie.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> The surprise for me - I actually feel ok with that.
> 
> I hope she doesn't let it distract her from her progress though. Unfortunately I think she probably will.
> 
> C'est la vie.


That's on her.

I hope she figures out what's important before she blows it.

Many do not.


----------



## zillard

Tonight I found myself wondering a lot. 

What have X and Tiger been talking about, and how much. 

Is this making T uncomfortable - feeling stuck in the middle of our drama.

Does this newfound acceptance with us moving directly relate to her hooking up with someone.

But none of these things are in my control, and definitely do not require any action on my part. 

What women talk about is up to them. If any of it influences opinions of me - so be it - I'm still me and really proud of who am I. Especially after this morning. 

If anyone in my life feels uncomfortable it is not my concern until they let me know. 

X's reasoning really is none of my business. I am blessed that my situation is much less dramatic at the moment... whatever the cause. And I do accept a lot of credit for that drop in drama. 

I am really glad that I apologized today. I really opened up myself and laid it bare. Will it decrease the chances of ever seeing true remorse from X? 

It doesn't matter. I am becoming more me. And it feels good enough that I have tears of joy. I missed him.


----------



## zillard

Just a tidbit:

Zillard was the name I gave the first little lizard I caught as a young boy. I made a nice home for it. Sticks to climb on. A rock to hide under. I wanted it to feel comfortable. He was my new friend. I checked on him daily. 

But in my ignorance I handled him too much and he lost his tail. I felt so terrible that I had broken him. So I set him free. 

Why did I choose that name for myself when all this went down? I didn't know. I had completely forgotten about the poor little helpless lizard and never told anybody about him. But suddenly he came to mind. 

I now see it was a symbol of what I had done to myself. I put myself in an artificial environment. I didn't see myself for what I actually was. And I played and pretended so much that I lost a part of myself. 

But now, having set myself free - I can be what I was meant to be. And just like the lizard... My tail is growing back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

QUOTE
To clarify - second time she was out all night she was with the same guy, and again stayed all night even though her girlfriend went home. Again I had to pry for each bit of info. 

I told her that even if she is just watching movies with this guy, it still is not ok because she is not being upfront with me, she is lying by omission, she is repeating behavior that she knows hurts me, and she is breaking her promise to me in the process. 

"I don't think it's a big deal, but I guess it is because it's a big deal for you."

Wow, I feel like she thinks that was an apology. This made me feel so small. 
******************************************

Who was that person???


----------



## 06Daddio08

Good on you for the apology. Had me thinking, don't think I've ever given one myself. That didn't have strings attached that is.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> QUOTE
> To clarify - second time she was out all night she was with the same guy, and again stayed all night even though her girlfriend went home. Again I had to pry for each bit of info.
> 
> I told her that even if she is just watching movies with this guy, it still is not ok because she is not being upfront with me, she is lying by omission, she is repeating behavior that she knows hurts me, and she is breaking her promise to me in the process.
> 
> "I don't think it's a big deal, but I guess it is because it's a big deal for you."
> 
> Wow, I feel like she thinks that was an apology. This made me feel so small.
> ******************************************
> 
> Who was that person???


A terrified, desperate, lonely little lizard who wanted a friend so bad he rolled in paint and told himself he was a chameleon. 

Good thing the paint was water soluble. All he needed was a good thunderstorm.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Good on you for the apology. Had me thinking, don't think I've ever given one myself. That didn't have strings attached that is.


Only when you're ready will it mean anything. 

[Edit] Many of [/Edit] the words I spoke today I've said before. But I was lying then.

And I was oblivious to how obvious it was.


----------



## zillard

Oh, wow. 

Tiger posted a Dalai Lama quote a few minutes ago to FB. How incredibly relevant today.

"It is more useful to be aware of a single shortcoming in ourselves than it is to be aware of a thousand in somebody else."


----------



## K.C.

Z you have been a massive inspiration to me in my own struggles to find myself. Advice and support from everyone has been huge, but there is just something about seeing it in real time that is amazing.

I love T's quote. So apt to self discovery.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Oh, wow.
> 
> Tiger posted a Dalai Lama quote a few minutes ago to FB. How incredibly relevant today.
> 
> "It is more useful to be aware of a single shortcoming in ourselves than it is to be aware of a thousand in somebody else."


Love this! 

Some people just can't fathom how consumed they are by judging others. They're oblivious to their own failures. And, it's most obvious on TAM, from the bitter ones that have convinced themselves they are always right.

Like Bob said, "Before you walk around judging me, make sure your hands are clean".

Thanks for sharing this, sweetness!


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> Tonight I found myself wondering a lot.
> 
> What have X and Tiger been talking about, and how much.
> 
> Is this making T uncomfortable - feeling stuck in the middle of our drama.
> 
> Does this newfound acceptance with us moving directly relate to her hooking up with someone.
> 
> But none of these things are in my control, and definitely do not require any action on my part.
> 
> What women talk about is up to them. If any of it influences opinions of me - so be it - I'm still me and really proud of who am I. Especially after this morning.
> 
> If anyone in my life feels uncomfortable it is not my concern until they let me know.
> 
> X's reasoning really is none of my business. I am blessed that my situation is much less dramatic at the moment... whatever the cause. And I do accept a lot of credit for that drop in drama.
> 
> I am really glad that I apologized today. I really opened up myself and laid it bare. Will it decrease the chances of ever seeing true remorse from X?
> 
> It doesn't matter. I am becoming more me. And it feels good enough that I have tears of joy. I missed him.


I had a similar moment last summer. I started thinking about all the times I had fought for someone else's cause but never my own. Why was I always eager to defend others but not myself? At the time, I was separated from the W and she was giving me a hard time. I was taking it all without saying a word, being a nice guy. And then I found an old picture of me when I was about 11 years old. I remembered the little guy in the picture did care about himself and fought for him. It was later on that things changed for me. When I became a chameleon of sorts to mix in during adolescence. Found myself crying and missing that guy. Where did he go? It was time to find him and I did.


----------



## Conrad

Lifescript said:


> she was giving me a hard time.


There's a shocker


----------



## hope4family

Awareness is important. I am glad that you are able to use it to put your past behind you. Something I have learned though, is that this is likely going to be a constant journey going forward. But, if you stick to it, it should reward exponentially. 

Looking back at the past 2 years and my marriage. My biggest mistake, was stopping looking down on things. Listening to the constant "I wish you would just tell me your feelings." Oh what a melting pot I opened the day I gave into that. 

There were other things, I could have done, but this is why we call it all lessons learned.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> lessons learned.


That's the key. Learning from the mistakes. 

Is there any other way to progress?


----------



## zillard

You know those incredible conversations that you have with a woman that just take on a life of their own? Flowing naturally with no effort at all and you don't want them to end as they are so inspirational that you have a ship eating grin that you just can't wipe off your face? Intellectual and emotional at the same time with no sexual content but still a very real attractive underscore? 

Me too.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> You know those incredible conversations that you have with a woman that just take on a life of their own? Flowing naturally with no effort at all and you don't want them to end as they are so inspirational that you have a ship eating grin that you just can't wipe off your face? Intellectual and emotional at the same time with no sexual content but still a very real attractive underscore?
> 
> Me too.


And pray tell what exactly WERE you doing so late at night?


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> You know those incredible conversations that you have with a woman that just take on a life of their own? Flowing naturally with no effort at all and you don't want them to end as they are so inspirational that you have a ship eating grin that you just can't wipe off your face? Intellectual and emotional at the same time with no sexual content but still a very real attractive underscore?
> 
> Me too.


Yes, with the simmering sexuality just below the surface.

I should tell you about some of the 8 hour hot tubs with Janie.

Then again, maybe I shouldn't


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> And pray tell what exactly WERE you doing so late at night?


Getting to know a feline a little better. Chatting about kids, art, education, society, documentaries, religion, TED talks, star gazing, and on and on.

Enjoying the present.


----------



## zillard

Finally finished a personal piece this morning. It's a good day.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Finally finished a personal piece this morning. It's a good day.


Awesome work Z.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> Finally finished a personal piece this morning. It's a good day.


Nice!


----------



## familyfirst09

Hey Z - I'm trying to find the link on parenting info...affective parenting? Or something like that? I thought it was on your thread....I'm going to the library today and would like to get some reading material on it. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> Hey Z - I'm trying to find the link on parenting info...affective parenting? Or something like that? I thought it was on your thread....I'm going to the library today and would like to get some reading material on it. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Authoritative Parenting - What Is Authoritative Parenting


----------



## zillard

Different exchange today. 

X texted me before hand to let me know she was running the gas station and would "be back ASAP".

Z - No rush. D7 is in the shower then heading out. Will be closer to 1 today. (I always stick to our agreed window of noon-1p but am usually there right at noon).

X - Ok. Just letting you know.

Z - Thank you.

X - Don't worry about being a little later than usual. I'm amazed by the fact that I was up and functional by 11 today. Better living through chemistry?

I wasn't worried. Didn't respond.

We arrived and X was fully dressed, hair straightened, makeup, etc. Wearing a new dress, tons of cleavage with the cut so low it went down past her breasts. 

She must've noticed my glance. She adjusted herself a little, not covering up though. 

X - If you wear a dress like this to the gas station chicks hit on you. Haha. So that's always fun!

I turned to D7, handing over her water bottle. 

X went on an on about how she surprised herself by waking early and getting things done. Potting plants on the patio. Showed us her new flowers. 

X - You have allergies. I can tell by the way you just scrunched your nose. Take Allegra. Don't bother with Claritin and that other crap. They don't do any good. 

Z - I have something that works.

X - Oh. Ok. Well...

Z - Do you have that 25?

X - 25 what?

Z - 25 dollars. 

X - 25 dollars for what?

Z - For D7's school pictures (we agreed to split a package a while ago and she still hasn't paid)

X - Oh. Maybe. 

She had twenty and asked to give me a 5 later. I told her that was just fine. She commented how she doesn't get paid til Friday and is pretty broke. 

I turned back to D7 to say goodbye. Told her to be good and have fun with her mom. 

X - We're going out to a Japanese restaurant tonight with some of my friends. You'll like it, D7. They have calamari!

Z - Yes, she does like calamari. See you tomorrow.


----------



## zillard

Conversations with Tiger continue to be deep and fulfilling. Lately we've dove into De Mello as well as codependency. 

Found myself worrying that the codependency talk would scare her off, but jumped in anyway. It seems to have done the opposite. She had a co-parenting issue with her ex that left her feeling disrespected and overwhelmed. She reached out to me. We went over #3s and boundaries and I shared some of my own frustrations and issues plus how I'm dealing with them. 

I do see some codependent traits in her, but also awareness and an obvious eagerness to improve herself and grow. I find that very commendable and see strength of character in that. 

Without discussing 50,000 feet it seems she is applying that in her life. 

"I find myself checking myself a lot these days. You know, taking a step back and re evaluating situations."

This is so much more attractive than cleavage, and more desirable than receiving validation for myself.


----------



## Lifescript

Interesting stuff Z. 

Looks like there's a lot of potential there Z. A woman who can talk about stuff other than shoes, celebrities and problems is always a plus.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Conversations with Tiger continue to be deep and fulfilling. Lately we've dove into De Mello as well as codependency.
> 
> Found myself worrying that the codependency talk would scare her off, but jumped in anyway. It seems to have done the opposite. She had a co-parenting issue with her ex that left her feeling disrespected and overwhelmed. She reached out to me. We went over #3s and boundaries and I shared some of my own frustrations and issues plus how I'm dealing with them.
> 
> I do see some codependent traits in her, but also awareness and an obvious eagerness to improve herself and grow. I find that very commendable and see strength of character in that.
> 
> Without discussing 50,000 feet it seems she is applying that in her life.
> 
> "I find myself checking myself a lot these days. You know, taking a step back and re evaluating situations."
> 
> This is so much more attractive than cleavage, and more desirable than receiving validation for myself.


Cleavage comes later


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> Interesting stuff Z.
> 
> Looks like there's a lot of potential there Z. A woman who can talk about stuff other than shoes, celebrities and problems is always a plus.


Yes. It's very refreshing. 

She asked if I have read The Four Agreements and said she uses it as her bible. 

We're doing a book swap when we get together in Vegas.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> Yes. It's very refreshing.
> 
> She asked if I have read The Four Agreements and said she uses it as her bible.
> 
> We're doing a book swap when we get together in Vegas.


It just keeps getting better and better. 

Yea, you two will book swap alright ... LOL


----------



## Conrad

Lifescript said:


> It just keeps getting better and better.
> 
> Yea, you two will book swap alright ... LOL


Among other swaps.


----------



## zillard

Had a sort of college reunion last night. Got some hotel rooms near a place where an old friend's band was doing a benefit show. A lot of people I haven't seen in years. Some even flew in from out of state. It was a great night. 

For the record, this totally works:



Conrad said:


> Women absolutely swoon for men who understand relationships.
> 
> So, you appear strong and funny. She's intrigued. She asks about your divorce.
> 
> You let out a long sigh and say, "It's complicated"
> 
> "Why wasn't it able to work"
> 
> "We built up too many #3's with each other"
> 
> "What's a #3?"
> 
> By the time that discussion is over, she'll be touching your arm and her eyes will be glued to you.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Had a sort of college reunion last night. Got some hotel rooms near a place where an old friend's band was doing a benefit show. A lot of people I haven't seen in years. Some even flew in from out of state. It was a great night.
> 
> For the record, this totally works:


Just think of us as your wingmen.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Just think of us as your wingmen.


Yes. Quality.

Much better than my last wingman, who got himself 86'd and arrested last weekend. Washing my hands.


----------



## zillard

X and I previously made an agreement that I drop off D7 on Saturdays from 12-1p and she will drop off D7 on Sundays from 6-7p. 

The last few weeks she's been consistently late on Sunday evenings. I really don't mind that, as long as she's here by bedtime (8ish). But I've noticed a pattern of her arriving late without being fed dinner and without receiving her asthma treatment. Due to this she gets to bed later than I like. 

The last few weeks I have said nothing as there have been more important co-parenting issues to work out. Everything else has been going smoothly so now is the time to fine tune. 

Sure enough:

6:36p
X - Running about a half hour late.

Z - Please ensure she's had dinner and a treatment when she's dropped off near bedtime. 

...

6:45p
X - Will do.

Small steps are still good, as long as they go in the right direction.


----------



## zillard

7:08p
X - I started the new med twice a day. It's kind of kicking my @ss. I'm sorry.

I did not respond.

7:12p
X - It should be better once my system gets used to it.

I did not respond.


----------



## GutPunch

I had the exact same issue and did the exact same thing as you. Bring them to me at bedtime then they better be ready for bed.


----------



## zillard

X showed up with D7 at 8:20p carrying a McDonald's bag.

X - There. She's had a treatment and ate. She didn't finish her fries though. I'm sorry we are so late. Next week should be better after my body has acclimated to the new med. 

Z - Ok. 

X - Just so you know, she doesn't like sushi. But she did eat a big plate of calamari. 

Z - It's ok D7. I don't like it either. 

Z - Do you have that 5? 

X - 5 what? 

Z - The other 5 dollars. (remaining money for school pics she promised to bring)

X - Oh, I don't know. I didn't even bring my purse in. Actually no. I don't think I have any paper money. But I'll get it to you. Remind me. Send me an email or something. 

Z - I have. It's been weeks. 

X - It's not at the top of my list of priorities. 

Z - Apparently. (calmly)

X - OK then. I'm going to leave now! She said goodbye to D7 quickly and bolted.


----------



## zillard

Am I being cheap? Maybe. Do I need the money? No. 

But I expect agreements to be kept. 5 dollars should not be a problem for a parent who does not have to pay child support or medical bills and has been reminded already.

Its about respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

Zillard, at times I laugh at how completely different our child switches are.

Today, go get the kids and I brought up how they need summer cloths, she replied with, "Buy what you want them to wear at your house". I responded, "Ok". Then I asked if there was anything to know in regards to the kids and she responded, "No".

Then I walked to the car, kids had already buckled themselves in. That's it, nothing else. Haha.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> Am I being cheap? Maybe. Do I need the money? No.
> 
> But I expect agreements to kept. 5 dollars should not be a problem for a parent who does not have to pay child support or medical bills and has been reminded already.
> 
> Its about respect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mine won't pay what she should, I paid full price for our daughters dance outfit and few other things such as dental work. But if I 'owe' her money, she will not let it go until it's paid back. Haha.

She lent me $5 for a book at a book fare we went to during parent / teacher one evening, next time I saw her, I gave it to her.


----------



## zillard

This woman's bs is amazing. 

Vegan/vegetarian cook, opposed to fast food - now feeding her daughter junk. 

Hinting multiple times about her dinner out with "friends", but only after learning I had women over for a bbq. 

Money enough for new dresses, booze, smokes and sushi but too broke to fork over $5 for her kids pictures. 

Blaming her tardiness, etc on her new meds, as if it wasn't a pattern. 

It really is hilarious that she seems to think I can't see through her. It seems that she may be under the impression that because I apologized to her for my shortcomings that I've returned to being ok as a doormat. 

Not so. My boundaries are not going away. I will continue to fine tune and add new ones in order to increase my own happiness and peace. And no matter how she behaves I will never regret my apology. I feel so much better about myself having done that. 

I do have to admit that validation from Tiger and, well, whatever may have happened last night is nice too. 

Funny thing - while overseeing D7's toothbrushing I looked in the mirror and noticed some red marks were visible due to the tank I was wearing. Hmm. Maybe X bolting so fast wasn't about the $5 at all. 

oh well.


----------



## GutPunch

Too cryptic
Spit it out Z
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

Could possibly be looking into things far too much, most likely a lot simpler than you think.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Could possibly be looking into things far too much, most likely a lot simpler than you think.


I've certainly been guilty of that before. Probably fooling myself that I'm not curious about x's new fling and refusing to acknowledge its getting to me on some level. 

Occams razor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> I've certainly been guilty of that before. Probably fooling myself that I'm not curious about x's new fling and refusing to acknowledge its getting to me on some level.
> 
> Occams razor.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I believe it to be a multilayer situation, as a part of you would like to know who could possibly be introduced into your daughters life, while you are naturally curious as is but at the same time, you know it's really none of your concern.

You're not the only one guilty of it at times.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> I believe it to be a multilayer situation, as a part of you would like to know who could possibly be introduced into your daughters life, while you are naturally curious as is but at the same time, you know it's really none of your concern.
> 
> You're not the only one guilty of it at times.


Yeah. Goes back to that internal dialogue. 

I repeat "It's none of my business" to myself.

But to be more honest with myself I should probably say instead: "I'm curious and that's ok. But it's none of my business so don't react".


----------



## zillard

GutPunch said:


> Too cryptic
> Spit it out Z


Well, there is a woman in my circle of friends. She's made infrequent but steady appearances over the years. Everybody loves her... just that type of magnetic personality. Gorgeous. Intelligent. Always a lot of fun. Funniest person in the group, regardless of the setting. 

X and I used to have her over here and there (often just the 3 of us) and we both always looked forward to her company. I haven't seen her in a couple years. 

She made an appearance last night. Asked how X was doing. Told her of the divorce. Enter the conversation about the #3s, which turned into hours. Actually missed seeing my friend's band play their set as we were outside talking and both were oblivious to what was going on inside. 

We were still talking when the place closed and then we migrated back to the hotel. After that... use your imagination GP. You chose aspirin. I chose Excedrin. (Conrad will likely appreciate that I DO know there's aspirin in Excedrin).


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> With respect to your opinion, and Z's, I will never agree with this statement. How is moving a child, away from her mother, EVER the best thing for a child?


Hi sweety. (no offense intended MrHK. But HK is simply too awesome for a formal greeting). 

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I do value it. 

My decision to move with D has been the hardest decision I have ever made in my life. Harder than the divorce, which absolutely devastated me. Harder than looking inward and admitting that I'm an @ss with pos tendencies. 

Why did I give X a window to prove herself, even though she already had proven where she was with D? Why have I put off the house sale for so long? Why did I waive child support? Why did I agree to pay 100% of Ds medical bills from here on out. Why did I agree to also pay a portion of X's travel expenses? 

Because I want X to be involved in D's life. As much as possible. It's soo incredibly important to D's well being. Now and in the future. 

But... I can not control that. I wanted nothing more than to see X get her ship together. To prioritize D in her life. But it has not happened. I can not assume that it will. At this point, if I stay it will be the largest, gnarliest, most putrid #3 that I could ever do. I would be sacrificing what I really want for myself (and have for years) as well as the childhood that I want for my daughter in order to make X's life easier and more comfortable. 

Because she has shown me that, even while she is "trying really hard", D is an afterthought. So staying would not be for D. It would be to give X a longer chance.

Plus, the future is always uncertain. Buying a house does not equal lifetime permanence (or I wouldn't be selling mine). There are always many options later should circumstances change... on both our parts. Will I remain there until D is 18? I don't have a clue. But right now, the things that I see D needs and is not receiving from her mother - she will receive an abundance of there. And her mother still has the choice of being involved. 

How much is up to her.


----------



## HappyKaty

Oh, honey, I have NO doubt that D7's best interest is your priority. I just hate seeing any kid grow up without a parent.

You know what I realized, though? This thread triggers me. I want to fix X, and make her see how lucky she is to be a mother, and a wife to a Zillard. She is my father (but better, and way cuter, I'm sure ). It takes me back, and makes me sympathize, so much, with D7. The difference, though, is my mom wasn't as strong as you are. And, because you are, D7 will be just fine. 

Keep on keeping on, baby. You've got this. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch

zillard said:


> Well, there is a woman in my circle of friends. She's made infrequent but steady appearances over the years. Everybody loves her... just that type of magnetic personality. Gorgeous. Intelligent. Always a lot of fun. Funniest person in the group, regardless of the setting.
> 
> X and I used to have her over here and there (often just the 3 of us) and we both always looked forward to her company. I haven't seen her in a couple years.
> 
> She made an appearance last night. Asked how X was doing. Told her of the divorce. Enter the conversation about the #3s, which turned into hours. Actually missed seeing my friend's band play their set as we were outside talking and both were oblivious to what was going on inside.
> 
> 
> 
> We were still talking when the place closed and then we migrated back to the hotel. After that... use your imagination GP. You chose aspirin. I chose Excedrin. (Conrad will likely appreciate that I DO know there's aspirin in Excedrin).


and the drought has lifted. Time for the rainy season. :smthumbup:


----------



## hope4family

HappyKaty said:


> Oh, honey, I have NO doubt that D7's best interest is your priority. I just hate seeing any kid grow up without a parent.
> 
> You know what I realized, though? This thread triggers me. I want to fix X, and make her see how lucky she is to be a mother, and a wife to a Zillard. She is my father (but better, and way cuter, I'm sure ). It takes me back, and makes me sympathize, so much, with D7. The difference, though, is my mom wasn't as strong as you are. And, because you are, D7 will be just fine.
> 
> Keep on keeping on, baby. You've got this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't quote you to be cynical or direct this towards you. But what you said did touch me and wanted me to give this response. 

The roll of a single parent is a hard one. Hence I do not envy Z's position even though mine is similar. To stay on the point of his ex, its more then just prioritizing your daughter that she has failed on. There are several boundaries and respectful co-parenting that could have been done. 

Sadly in the case of the child. The decision of where she fell in terms of priority was made when Z's "ex" first signed the divorce and parent plan papers. 

Her counter was to go from being a walk away parent, to a mediocre parent. Now landing somewhere in the middle. I don't judge her on this. It is merely an observation of her choices.


----------



## Conrad

GutPunch said:


> and the drought has lifted. Time for the rainy season. :smthumbup:


The best kind of wingmen are those that don't even need to be present.


----------



## zillard

Oh man. Disappointed about an unfortunate situation today at work. 

VP called me up with an opportunity to join a meeting that could prove to be beneficial to my career with the company. 

Out of state. Day after tomorrow. 

He tried to get travel approved for me but could not. Offered to personally assist financially, as a friend. 

Would like to jump on this but don't think I can/should. Meeting w/real estate agent tomorrow to put house up. D7 is anxious and again sick. Home from school. Can't rely on X for last minute overnight daycare + getting her to school and back. I tried to get D7 to do a sleepover recently at her friend's and she was freaked out so don't want to push that angle either. 

Well, I knew being a single dad would be challenging. My job is not in jeopardy and as is works well for now. Career advancement needs to take a back seat to me taking care of D7 and getting this move done. For the time being. 

So it goes.


----------



## Conrad

Check into daycare at the destination

How far out of state?


----------



## ReGroup

Walk-In DayCares Z. I'm sure you can find one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> Walk-In DayCares Z. I'm sure you can find one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She'd probably like the road trip.

7 year olds have some game.


----------



## zillard

12+ hr drive each way or an extra plane ticket + rental, daycare, and dog boarding. Checked same day flights and puts me an hour late to the meeting w/o daycare detour.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> 12+ hr drive each way or an extra plane ticket + rental, daycare, and dog boarding. Checked same day flights and puts me an hour late to the meeting w/o daycare detour.


Wow... that's a haul.

Can any of the hotties help you out?


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Wow... that's a haul.
> 
> Can any of the hotties help you out?


Probably. The one from Saturday was texting me over her lunch break and wants to meet up again. 

Ohhh - you mean help out with the trip? No.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Probably. The one from Saturday was texting me over her lunch break and wants to meet up again.
> 
> Ohhh - you mean help out with the trip? No.


Here's what I was thinking.

You tell X you've got babysitting lined up with a local woman who you trust - but wanted to give her first shot.

She may find religion

Remember, we're all fixers here....


----------



## ReGroup

F'ing Genius!

Z, go for it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Here's what I was thinking.
> 
> You tell X you've got babysitting lined up with a local woman who you trust - but wanted to give her first shot.
> 
> She may find religion
> 
> Remember, we're all fixers here....


That just reminded me. Until the move I couldn't do an interstate road trip with D anyway... without X's permission. Now part of me wants to drive the 24 hours anyway, just because I can't.


----------



## zillard

I've been pondering a lot on this. Took a step back to look more in depth. 

I'm not going. 

My initial reaction to boss' phone call was not excitement or desire. I let his enthusiasm, praise of me, and generous willingness to try and help me cloud me. 

I had feelings of not wanting to let him down. To please. Had fear of disappointing him, even though he made it clear it was an offer as a friend and not an obligation. 

I really like what I do right now. This is an opportunity to possibly get my foot in the door on management level, which would take me away from the creative work I thrive on.

I'm a hands on doer, not a manager.

My desire to advance, which is very real, is in other areas. I want to be the best at what I do and love. Hone my skills further. Branch out creatively into other styles and markets. Not climb the ladder. 

I have ignored my full potential previously due to fear. Procrastinated. Played it safe. But I think my potential and happiness lies in expanding, not chasing money. And I firmly believe that if I do embrace and expand my passion, money will follow if I need it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Busted my butt getting this house in tip top shape. Was stressed about it as I want it to be perfect... of course. 

Realtor came over this morning to take photos and go over paperwork and pricing. She was really excited about the state of the house, which felt nice. Recommended raising the price another $5k. 

It will be listed tomorrow, provided X responds with her e-sigs in a timely fashion. Realtor said she preferred to take over contact with X for that. Fine by me. 

D7 had made a book about the house - a little flip book of stapled papers. Cover page with a drawing of the house. Inside each page is a drawing of something in the house. Toys. Fridge. Microwave. Cabinets. TV. etc. 

Realtor went gooey over it and take pics of it, adamant that they be included in the listing. She said parents will eat it up. 

I'm excited! And a little terrified. Crossing my fingers I get a good offer quickly.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Good luck.


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> Busted my butt getting this house in tip top shape. Was stressed about it as I want it to be perfect... of course.
> 
> Realtor came over this morning to take photos and go over paperwork and pricing. She was really excited about the state of the house, which felt nice. Recommended raising the price another $5k.
> 
> It will be listed tomorrow, provided X responds with her e-sigs in a timely fashion. Realtor said she preferred to take over contact with X for that. Fine by me.
> 
> D7 had made a book about the house - a little flip book of stapled papers. Cover page with a drawing of the house. Inside each page is a drawing of something in the house. Toys. Fridge. Microwave. Cabinets. TV. etc.
> 
> Realtor went gooey over it and take pics of it, adamant that they be included in the listing. She said parents will eat it up.
> 
> I'm excited! And a little terrified. Crossing my fingers I get a good offer quickly.


Good luck!! I know that feeling of excitement and terrified!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

And would all you guys stop getting.....ya'll making me jealous!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lifescript

Hope it sells soon so you can move on with your plans.


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> And would all you guys stop getting.....ya'll making me jealous!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sure I don't know what you mean.


----------



## familyfirst09

Uh huh....suuuuurrrrreeee......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



familyfirst09 said:


> Uh huh....suuuuurrrrreeee......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I the same boat as you! Lol


----------



## zillard

Do something... about it.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> Do something... about it.


It will happen eventually, plus I had a chance last August when I went camping but was still in "want to R" mode.

End of June we go back, rafting is great place to pick em up.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> I the same boat as you! Lol





06Daddio08 said:


> It will happen eventually, plus I had a chance last August when I went camping but was still in "want to R" mode.
> 
> End of June we go back, rafting is great place to pick em up.


Wait a minute. 

You're going rafting with FF09!?


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> Wait a minute.
> 
> You're going rafting with FF09!?


Oh hell, if she wants to!


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> Wait a minute.
> 
> You're going rafting with FF09!?


Damn....the secrets out....that's why I'm always calling him daddy 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

06Daddio08 said:


> Oh hell, if she wants to!


We canucks gotta stick together!! Hell ya!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

Damn, maybe I should get on this.....boat.


----------



## familyfirst09

hope4family said:


> Damn, maybe I should get on this.....boat.


Well we are canadian so were very polite, welcome aboard!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

familyfirst09 said:


> Well we are canadian so were very polite, welcome aboard!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Truth be told, I never met a Canadian that wasn't friendly.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Truth be told, I never met a Canadian that wasn't friendly.


Just HOW friendly is the question.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> Just HOW friendly is the question.


I suppose I can see how an outsider would feel the need to question the friendliness, but, we know.


----------



## zillard

Speaking of friendly...

Tiger's been teasing me about an old party video she found from over a decade ago. Me in a compromising situation. She's basically blackmailing me and enjoying every minute of it. Can almost hear her "muwahaha" from here. 

Friend from last Saturday - let's call her B - was texting to say hi. I hadn't contacted her yet. I stuck to chit chat without asking her back out. Sure enough she asked to meet up for coffee/tea. 

Still getting free drinks from bartender at corner pub. Funny. Every night she starts out nice and giving. I'm the only one there that doesn't hit on her every ten minutes. I always notice her scowling at me near the end of the night... while I chat up other women. But sure enough the next week - who gets a smile and free drink with a touch on the arm as she serves it? haha.

My big brother will be here visiting this weekend. Not sure at this point if he'll be my wingman or me his. 

This is all so different. I was single through college and then some. Awkward with females. Afraid to make a move. Clingy with any that showed interest, which did me no good. 

MMSLP seems to be spot on.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> MMSLP seems to be spot on.


MMSLP?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Married mans sex life primer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

I too have noticed an increase in physical touch from females. Not sure how to seal any deals yet. I'm just trying to have fun, and don't care otherwise. 

Macklemore - Cowboy Boots + Lyrics - YouTube


----------



## 06Daddio08

I have yet to read a single book, maybe I should start.


----------



## 06Daddio08

hope4family said:


> I too have noticed an increase in physical touch from females. Not sure how to seal any deals yet. I'm just trying to have fun, and don't care otherwise.
> 
> Macklemore - Cowboy Boots + Lyrics - YouTube


I love that entire album!


----------



## hope4family

06Daddio08 said:


> I love that entire album!


It's very good. Got the digital album with the bonus tracks. This kid has a future. Oddly enough, I even dig/relate to a lot of his songs.


----------



## familyfirst09

Is there a MMLSP for women??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

hope4family said:


> It's very good. Got the digital album with the bonus tracks. This kid has a future. Oddly enough, I even dig/relate to a lot of his songs.


He's been through a lot, I looked into him (good ol Google) and I enjoy his mostly clean rapping.

There is also another rapper who goes by the name of Classified, from the east coast of Canada. I've been into him off and on for about 10 years and he's finally hitting it 'mainstream'.


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> Is there a MMLSP for women??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. It's called wine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

06Daddio08 said:


> He's been through a lot, I looked into him (good ol Google) and I enjoy his mostly clean rapping.
> 
> There is also another rapper who goes by the name of Classified, from the east coast of Canada. I've been into him off and on for about 10 years and he's finally hitting it 'mainstream'.


Sounds cool, i'll try and pick it up.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Yes. It's called wine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


lulz:rofl:


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> Yes. It's called wine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Until the morning. Then the headaches come!


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Not sure how to seal any deals yet. *I'm just trying to have fun, and don't care otherwise.*


Keep that up. Be funny. Tell jokes. 

That is giving her something, rather than asking for something. 

After that... you'll know when she's interested. Seize the opportunity when it presents itself! Don't think, just go for it. 

This last weekend, I didn't really flirt at all. I asked her questions about herself, which led to discussion. I didn't ask her to drive me back to my hotel. I didn't ask her to come up to the room. She didn't want to end the conversation. Once there, I leaned over and pulled her toward me. 

Analysis paralysis and fear of rejection are the killers. 

Have fun. Then throw caution to the wind.


----------



## familyfirst09

06Daddio08 said:


> He's been through a lot, I looked into him (good ol Google) and I enjoy his mostly clean rapping.
> 
> There is also another rapper who goes by the name of Classified, from the east coast of Canada. I've been into him off and on for about 10 years and he's finally hitting it 'mainstream'.


He's from my 'hood yanno 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> Yes. It's called wine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL! Wine just makes me sleepy and sappy. So when I'm on here telling ya I love you and stuff, ya, I'm drinking 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> LOL! Wine just makes me sleepy and sappy. So when I'm on here telling ya I love you and stuff, ya, I'm drinking
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Love you too, lush-cious. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

familyfirst09 said:


> LOL! Wine just makes me sleepy and sappy. So when I'm on here telling ya I love you and stuff, ya, I'm drinking
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just imagine if Brother Z was there in person....


----------



## turnera

06Daddio08 said:


> I have yet to read a single book, maybe I should start.


 The wisest, smartest, and most successful people I have ever met are those who DO read books. As many as they can get their hands on. Books teach you stuff you don't already know.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



familyfirst09 said:


> He's from my 'hood yanno
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol. I knew.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Yes. It's called wine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or tequila...as a much quicker working option. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

familyfirst09 said:


> LOL! Wine just makes me sleepy and sappy. So when I'm on here telling ya I love you and stuff, ya, I'm drinking
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





HappyKaty said:


> Or tequila...as a much quicker working option.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I lost the cap to my bottle of tequila the other day... I ended up drinking a bottle of wine so I could use the cork on the tequila bottle.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Keep that up. Be funny. Tell jokes.
> 
> That is giving her something, rather than asking for something.
> 
> After that... you'll know when she's interested. Seize the opportunity when it presents itself! Don't think, just go for it.
> 
> This last weekend, I didn't really flirt at all. I asked her questions about herself, which led to discussion. I didn't ask her to drive me back to my hotel. I didn't ask her to come up to the room. She didn't want to end the conversation. Once there, I leaned over and pulled her toward me.
> 
> Analysis paralysis and fear of rejection are the killers.
> 
> Have fun. Then throw caution to the wind.


:iagree:

Missed it by _that_ ->||<- much last night... had there been opportunity for greater privacy, I wouldn't have.


----------



## HappyKaty

Pbartender said:


> I lost the cap to my bottle of tequila the other day... I ended up drinking a bottle of wine so I could use the cork on the tequila bottle.


Bahahaha! 

I laugh because I'm guilty.


----------



## 06Daddio08

I was given shots of Mango Tequila straight from Mexico 2 weeks ago before a social. Took far too many (the stuff tasted like mango candy.... CANDY!) but that was one helluva night.

Don't remember getting home, but when I woke up I was thankful I got home safe. Took a day to remember everything.... damn tequila.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Keep that up. Be funny. Tell jokes.
> 
> That is giving her something, rather than asking for something.
> 
> After that... you'll know when she's interested. Seize the opportunity when it presents itself! Don't think, just go for it.
> 
> This last weekend, I didn't really flirt at all. I asked her questions about herself, which led to discussion. I didn't ask her to drive me back to my hotel. I didn't ask her to come up to the room. She didn't want to end the conversation. Once there, I leaned over and pulled her toward me.
> 
> Analysis paralysis and fear of rejection are the killers.
> 
> Have fun. Then throw caution to the wind.


I have a couple females who are touchy feely. A few more enjoy that + flirting with me, some flirted even harder when they found out I was a dad, and even more when they found out that my wife left. 

What's crazy, is that they seem mentally stable, calm, well composed, if a bit young, and just want me to give them attention. 

All I am doing is not giving them attention, or complimenting their looks. Crazy.


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> I have a couple females who are touchy feely. A few more enjoy that + flirting with me, some flirted even harder when they found out I was a dad, and even more when they found out that my wife left.
> 
> What's crazy, is that they seem mentally stable, calm, well composed, if a bit young, and just want me to give them attention.
> 
> All I am doing is not giving them attention, or complimenting their looks. Crazy.


You've never heard females are competitive?


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



hope4family said:


> All I am doing is not giving them attention, or complimenting their looks. Crazy.


That's the trick.


----------



## Pbartender

HappyKaty said:


> Bahahaha!
> 
> I laugh because I'm guilty.


"I've got the moves like Jäger... meister."


----------



## Conrad

Lifescript said:


> That's the trick.


You could tell them the hair doesn't quite work as well as it might.

That really gets their attention. Gives them something to prove - to you.


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> You've never heard females are competitive?


I got 5 sisters. I know the rules. I just thought I could get away with never playing the game. 

I was wrong.


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> You could tell them the hair doesn't quite work as well as it might.
> 
> That really gets their attention. Gives them something to prove - to you.


Yes. Anything and everything to get that "compliment." 

Me and "10's" dialogue this past Monday. 

"Oh you know how it is, guys love to buy us young cute ladies drinks" - 10
*Deviant grin "Well one of those is true." - Hope
*Smile - 10


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> Yes. Anything and everything to get that "compliment."
> 
> Me and "10's" dialogue this past Monday.
> 
> "Oh you know how it is, guys love to buy us young cute ladies drinks" - 10
> *Deviant grin "Well one of those is true." - Hope
> *Smile - 10


Sure, but how about you buy the first one


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



Conrad said:


> Sure, but how about you buy the first one


That would get her love button tingling.


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> Sure, but how about you buy the first one


HA. There in lies the only problem with 10. 

Her age breaks the "half + 7" rule. I am 28, so, do the math on what her age might be. She isn't looking for anything other then fun. 

Good for me, at this stage neither am I.


----------



## K.C.

Half plus 7?
Can figure out the maths but where does this rule come from?


----------



## HappyKaty

hope4family said:


> HA. There in lies the only problem with 10.
> 
> Her age breaks the "half + 7" rule.


And she was in the bar?


----------



## hope4family

K.C. said:


> Half plus 7?
> Can figure out the maths but where does this rule come from?


It's part of the word on the street. Most people have taught me as such.


----------



## Ceegee

Attitude, confidence and awareness.

When my wife and I were having problems I had very little of these traits and when my wife left me it dropped to zero. Over the last several months, with the help of TAM and posters like Zillard, I've worked hard to improve myself. Read everything I can get my hands on. 

I'm 41 years old and look 50 yet I've been out with women between the ages of 28 and 45. They seem to dig the funny. The knowledge of the inner workings of relationships is the bonus that keeps them around.

Never wanted to play the game and up to last year, at my peril, I never thought I would have to. If you don't play it you might find one that will settle for you. If you play it you could have several to choose from.


----------



## Lifescript

I thought the rule was 18+.


----------



## hope4family

HappyKaty said:


> And she was in the bar?


Sure she just can't drink or get caught, both are her choices. Our state is weird like that.


----------



## hope4family

Lifescript said:


> I thought the rule was 18+.


Thats what I keep telling myself. But then the other rule pops into my mind.


----------



## HappyKaty

hope4family said:


> Sure she just can't drink or get caught, both are her choices. Our state is weird like that.


Clearly, my state is more weird. You have to be 21 to even get in the bar.


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> Attitude, confidence and awareness.
> 
> When my wife and I were having problems I had very little of these traits and when my wife left me it dropped to zero. Over the last several months, with the help of TAM and posters like Zillard, I've worked hard to improve myself. Read everything I can get my hands on.
> 
> I'm 41 years old and look 50 yet I've been out with women between the ages of 28 and 45. They seem to dig the funny. The knowledge of the inner workings of relationships is the bonus that keeps them around.
> 
> Never wanted to play the game and up to last year, at my peril, I never thought I would have to. If you don't play it you might find one that will settle for you. If you play it you could have several to choose from.


Making them laugh...

How many of us lose our senses of humor once the vows get exchanged?


----------



## Ceegee

Conrad said:


> Making them laugh...
> 
> How many of us lose our senses of humor once the vows get exchanged?


Hard to be funny with someone who's never around anymore.


----------



## zillard

Realtor and I are waiting on X to esign house papers to get it up on the MLS. 

X calls me, asking about the numbers (why price went up $5k). I explained. She said ok, she's going through them now and signing. Almost finished. 

I informed her that D7 was ill and home from school. Puked in the hall late last night and has the runs. She asks if I took her to the doctor. I told her no, I'm sick too. I think it's something we ate. 

She went into mom/wife mode. Suggesting I date stuff in the fridge. Suggesting a specific diet for today for D7. Suggesting meds, food and hydration for me. 

Z - Yep. I do that. I have all that stuff for her. 

X - Ok, well I'm doing the papers now. I don't want to, but they're almost done. 

Z - Thank you. 

X - Ok. Thank you, hon. I'll talk to you later. bubye.


----------



## zillard

So was this reverting back to using pet names a slip of the tongue? Love crumb because I'm following through with house sale?

I realize it doesn't matter. But that part of me is still curious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

zillard said:


> So was this reverting back to using pet names a slip of the tongue? Love crumb because I'm following through with house sale?
> 
> I realize it doesn't matter. But that part of me is still curious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're not out of the woods yet buddy... expect one last push. We all know it's coming. 

Keep your eyes on the Exit sign.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> So was this reverting back to using pet names a slip of the tongue? Love crumb because I'm following through with house sale?
> 
> I realize it doesn't matter. But that part of me is still curious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I noticed it.

You know what I think she'll eventually do.


----------



## turnera

LS's wife dropped her clothes in front of him, to get back in control. Didn't work.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> So was this reverting back to using pet names a slip of the tongue? Love crumb because I'm following through with house sale?
> 
> I realize it doesn't matter. But that part of me is still curious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The ladies are very resourceful. Wait for it.


----------



## HappyKaty

Lifescript said:


> The ladies are very resourceful. Wait for it.


As are the opposite gender, my dear.


----------



## zillard

Ha. Haven't been top of my game today. Feel like crap. In sickness fog. 

Just realized something about the phone call. First, she called. Only other time she's called to talk recently was when she was using my last name again on stuff. 

Second, she was asking about the $5k discrepancy. When I explained, "A price to start and then if no offer..."

She finished my sentence "... in 10 days then it drops down to B price. Ok. Just checking". 

SMH. She knew. 

Anyway, I got notice from realtor that the papers have been signed by X.  

But not before X reached out again to tell me.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



HappyKaty said:


> As are the opposite gender, my dear.


No. Us? Never!


----------



## Ceegee

turnera said:


> LS's wife dropped her clothes in front of him, to get back in control. Didn't work.


Wow, I ain't gonna lie. That would work on me.


----------



## turnera

What does SMH stand for?


----------



## HappyKaty

turnera said:


> What does SMH stand for?


Shaking my head.


----------



## HappyKaty

Ceegee said:


> Wow, I ain't gonna lie. That would work on me.


Sadly enough...me, too.


----------



## Pbartender

HappyKaty said:


> Sadly enough...me, too.


I couldn't say... I've never met LS's wife.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



Ceegee said:


> Wow, I ain't gonna lie. That would work on me.


Works all the time except last night.


----------



## Lifescript

Needed to make a stand for humanity and men rights.


----------



## HappyKaty

Pbartender said:


> I couldn't say... I've never met LS's wife.


Smart ass.


----------



## zillard

At one point it would've worked on me too. 

Why do you think I didn't let her stay over Xmas Eve. And New Years Eve.


----------



## hope4family

Lifescript said:


> Needed to make a stand for humanity and men rights.


For nice guys everywhere!


----------



## zillard

Realtor just showed the house to first prospective buyers.

Game on!


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> Realtor just showed the house to first prospective buyers.
> 
> Game on!


Very much so, best of luck selling it!


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Very much so, best of luck selling it!


They loved it. First offer is coming through tonight. Are you kiddin me! Same day it was listed!

Second showing to a different family tomorrow morning. Whoa


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> They loved it. First offer is coming through tonight. Are you kiddin me! Same day it was listed!
> 
> Second showing to a different family tomorrow morning. Whoa


When we sold my mothers house back in September .. she decided "I have to sell the house". Gave us 3 weeks to get it ready (which means a lot of cleaning up .. 15 years of stuff to go through) and we tried to stage it the best we could.

Funny enough, back in June she was saying how she was thinking of selling ... I asked again in July if she was still planning on it and she said no. I specifically asked her NOT to spring it up on me out of no where. I literally got a Facebook message from her, "Have to sell the house, sorry". I mean, it was good for her, she should have sold the dang thing years and years ago after my dad passed away.

Even then, with how short of notice we had .. 1 open house had over 30 people come see it. She sold it within 4 days, could have taken more for it .. but she's impulsive like that. LOL.


----------



## zillard

It that da'Cheat? :smthumbup:


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> It that da'Cheat? :smthumbup:


Sure is! Twas my first Avatar when I came around. I miss the old Strongbad e-mail ... and Trogdor;

Burninating the countryside,
Burninating the peasants,
Burninating all the peoples,
And their thatched-roof COTTAGES!
THATCHED-ROOF COTTAGES!


----------



## HappyKaty

Best wishes, Z. I'm still praying for y'all, and I forever will. Much love, sweetness.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> They loved it. First offer is coming through tonight. Are you kiddin me! Same day it was listed!
> 
> Second showing to a different family tomorrow morning. Whoa


Should have raised it 10 grand.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Should have raised it 10 grand.


Offer is above list, so pretty much. :smthumbup:


----------



## zillard

Woke up hours early after having an incredibly vivid dday flashback dream. Hasn't happened in months. 

Not the mind movie type imagining the pa, but of me at home with d7 realizing why x did not come home at night to be with us. 

Probably the stress of the house sale and impending move surfacing. Completely took me surprise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Woke up hours early after having an incredibly vivid dday flashback dream. Hasn't happened in months.
> 
> Not the mind movie type imagining the pa, but of me at home with d7 realizing why x did not come home at night to be with us.
> 
> Probably the stress of the house sale and impending move surfacing. Completely took me surprise.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Our subconscious is the map to our perception of the world.


----------



## Chuck71

looks at Zs thread first time in about a week............egh heavy reading assignment....... i'm sure all is well in Z Land


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Woke up hours early after having an incredibly vivid dday flashback dream. Hasn't happened in months.
> 
> Not the mind movie type imagining the pa, but of me at home with d7 realizing why x did not come home at night to be with us.
> 
> Probably the stress of the house sale and impending move surfacing. Completely took me surprise.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I had a similar thing happen to me over New Years Eve to New Years Day. I woke up feeling as if I just relived 3 months. 

But since then, I do not think I have had another dream. The timing was well fitted. 



Conrad said:


> Our subconscious is the map to our perception of the world.


It was a pivotal moment in which everything changed forever. Exactly where my dream started. 



zillard said:


> Offer is above list, so pretty much. :smthumbup:


Awesome news man!


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> It was a pivotal moment in which everything changed forever. Exactly where my dream started.


Yup. I accepted the offer last night. And what do ya know... X has already accepted too. 

House is now under contract, buyer is preapproved and a strong buyer.

Now I can relax with d7 a bit until the move while she finishes up her school year. 

Very fortunate indeed. Today is good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lifescript

Glad to hear man.


----------



## K.C.

Wow. Don't you hate it when selling a house drags on like that!

Fantastic news.


----------



## Chuck71

Are you mapquesting You-taw yet?


----------



## zillard

X is now turning it up.

She offered to take time off work near the move in May to watch D7. 

X - I can ask for the 23rd and 24, that gives us a 4 day weekend more or less.

Z - perfect.

X - I'll put in for it tonight. 

Z - I appreciate it. Don't want to make her camp out here while beds are packed and house turned. 

X - She says my place feels like home. At least I can give her that. We'll camp out and eat Chinese food on the floor. 

Z - Am really glad she feels that way.

X - Me too. 

X - I managed to avoid crying like a b!tch at the therapist, but it's coming out now. Rad

X - Do you need help packing? Want to unload some stuff here? 

X - I can take some stuff if you don't want to move it, but space is limited and you'll have to bring it over. [her car] is sh!tty for moving stuff. 

Z - I will be good with [my brothers]. D7 might want to leave some of her stuff. Will discuss with her. 

X - Ok. I'm always willing to take a bookshelf or two if you're feeling crazy...

Not responding. I'm keeping my stuff. Except for my washer, dryer and fridge. I'm selling those to new buyer. On the side.


----------



## familyfirst09

Conrad said:


> Just imagine if Brother Z was there in person....


I can't imagine, its too dirty 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> I can't imagine, its too dirty


I have two clean tubs. And strawberries. 

Just sayin.


----------



## zillard

X emailed me a schedule of her next 8 IC sessions too.


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> I have two clean tubs. And strawberries.
> 
> Just sayin.


Meet you in u-taw 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

And also, fantastic news on the house!! Any hurdles to go over (ie water tests or inspections?)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> And also, fantastic news on the house!! Any hurdles to go over (ie water tests or inspections?)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Water is good. Private shared well. It will have to appraise at new value plus inspection next week. But its tip top.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

She is opening up to you more and more.

I'm curious to find out where this leads.

I'll keep my predictions to myself.

Congrats on everything z.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> She is opening up to you more and more.
> 
> I'm curious to find out where this leads.
> 
> I'll keep my predictions to myself.
> 
> Congrats on everything z.


Just remember ReGroup - this is what happens after the rage - initial response to new boundaries - if you keep at it. 

If nothing else, it makes for a much better co-parenting situation - because there is more respect. 

And that's good enough for me. Anything else is icing. But I'm lactose intolerant so it has to be made MY way.

Or I'm not touching it!


----------



## Chuck71

She senses it is past the two minute warning. Hail Mary pass?


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> She senses it is past the two minute warning. Hail Mary pass?


6 more weeks to go of me not givin a sh!t... should at least be interesting.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Just remember ReGroup - this is what happens after the rage - initial response to new boundaries - if you keep at it.
> 
> If nothing else, it makes for a much better co-parenting situation - because there is more respect.
> 
> And that's good enough for me. Anything else is icing. But I'm lactose intolerant so it has to be made MY way.
> 
> Or I'm not touching it!


Looks like it's about to be served up however you prefer it.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Looks like it's about to be served up however you prefer it.


Ha. Dropped off D7. X answered the door in her underwear. 

She wasn't expecting my brother to be with me. . 

X - uh come on in (bro). You've already seen my @ss. 

Lmao.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Ha. Dropped off D7. X answered the door in her underwear.
> 
> She wasn't expecting my brother to be with me. .
> 
> X - uh come on in (bro). You've already seen my @ss.
> 
> Lmao.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Was that the hail mary pass?


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Was that the hail mary pass?


Weak one, if so. But when have I seen all-in effort?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

And if your brother wouldn't have been there with you? What then.

Life is good!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

Omg that's hilarious!!!
Have to tell you a story of my own, cause yanno, I did some chasing (who me?? Never!! Lol) but yeah when X was still living here I would strip down naked in front of him all the time , walk by "whew I'm hot" and take my shirt off, haha, it was hilarious that I did that thinking back on it now. Obviously it didn't work, ha! At least I can laugh at myself 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

My STBXW gave me the Sharon Stone leg crossing bit. IN THE MIDDLE OF A DIVORCE MEETING. Still insists she hates me though. I was also getting texts from new "friend" showing me her new bikini at the same time. 

This new life my wife chose for me ain't all that bad.


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> And if your brother wouldn't have been there with you? What then.
> 
> Life is good!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey regroup! I'm out with a school psych. Is mrs rg out of town? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> Hey regroup! I'm out with a school psych. Is mrs rg out of town?


Last night proved to be an interesting evening. After the drop off at X's brother and I went to good friend fitness instructor's place. We met up with a group of people at an outdoor culinary festival. Good time in the sun. 

After going home to change and let the dog out we went back to friend's where there were two women I hadn't met. One was with my friend. The other (school psych) I assumed was with his roommate. 

We all went out to some restaurants and clubs. I stuck to a beer and 2 shots over the evening and had a great time. Chatted up psych a bit about child psychology. Gorgeous woman. Smart, excellent body. 

By the end of the night she got cut off. Stumbling, took a dive in her heels on the way back to friend's place. We had to help her back. I was tired and plopped down on the couch. Shut my eyes to get some zzz's.

Next thing I know there is naked psych, loosely wrapped in a blanket, standing over me asking for a massage in the bedroom. 

I obliged. But then I turned down the obvious offer for more, tucked her in and went back to the couch. Her drunkenness has turned me off. 

And I felt great about myself in the morning.


----------



## Conrad

She knows you turned her down also.

Expect a 2nd invite when she's at her best.


----------



## GutPunch

Conrad said:


> She knows you turned her down also.
> 
> Expect a 2nd invite when she's at her best.



This is a certainty.


----------



## ReGroup

***Triggering***
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Had to drop off Bro at the airport in the evening, close to X's apt. So I offered to pickup D7 after as I'd be in the area anyway. She agreed and thanked me. 

4:56p
Z - Leaving for the airport now.

5:05p
X - I'm hopping in the shower. Door should be unlocked.

?? 45 min drive + airport drop off. No way would she still be in shower when I arrived. And I will not simply enter her apt w/o her at the door. I did not respond.

I arrived shortly after 6p. Knocked. She opened the door, after unlocking it.  She had not showered. 

X - I totally fell asleep. That medicine is kicking my @ss today. And it's a half dose now. 

Z- Hmm.

I focused on D7 who gave me a run and jump hug. X started talking about a friend who was practicing cake decorating so now she has a fridge full of cake. I got a text and stepped aside to read and respond as she continued. 

I then noticed D's suitcase wasn't packed so I started picking stuff up and packing. 

X - Oh, I didn't put that back together. I'm sorry. 

Z - Ok.

D7 - I wanted to decorate cupcakes. 

X - I know you want to decorate the cupcakes but mommy took the medicine that makes her zonk out and we couldn't decorate the cupcakes. So....

D7 - Dad, can you at least stay to decorate cupcakes, because I really really want to. 

Z - I dunno.

X - You can decorate one cupcake if it's ok with your dad. 

Z - That's fine with me. 

X - She was flipping out about decorating the cupcakes. I feel bad because the pill at like one. I forgot to take it earlier. OMG. It kicked my @ss. And it's like the half dose. But it's supposed to make me happy!

She got the stuff out and I sat. Waiting for her and D7 to do their thing. The entire time X went on and on. All about her cake friend. The new pasta sauce she makes almost nightly. Leaving work early due to a panic attack. Her being displeased with her job and furiously looking for a new employer. Needing to find frames for some art. What water bottle she takes to work. Trip to the grocery store with D. How her kitchen is always a complete mess when I come over on the weekends (as she turns off the kitchen light to hide it). 

Meanwhile I'm alternating between texting and complimenting D on her skills. Encouraging her. 

X made a point of showing me her hair. How it was shorter. It had been colored. I did not comment so went into how her she went to her guy hairdresser friend again. She always thought I was jealous of the guy, or possessive. I never saw him as a threat. Definitely don't now. 

X informs me she did request PTO for the days before my move and when she'll know. Got up to make a coffee. I stepped in and helped D decorate in order to speed things up. Then packed up the rest of her stuff. 

X walked us out to the car. Lingered like crazy. I repeated that we had to get home before D's bedtime. She said goodbye to D again and again, then stepped back as we left. 

I rolled the window down so D could wave. I smiled and waved too. 

If she only knew of the options I now find crossing my path.


----------



## 06Daddio08

This whole passing out while your daughter is there 'because of the meds' is real BS dude.


----------



## zillard

Yes. I can't tell if it's depression, laziness, wallowing, alcohol or really the meds. Probably a combination.

I'm starting to think this had a big part to play in me being turned off by school psych - triggering like rg.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Next time she tells you she zonked out, inform her that if it keeps happening, you're going to take steps to protect your daughter.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Next time she tells you she zonked out, inform her that if it keeps happening, you're going to take steps to protect your daughter.


Yes. I'm really glad I've been using the VAR during these swaps.


----------



## Chuck71

Or maybe she is mixing alcohol and the meds......

I take it the Hail Mary pass was dropped 

not to mention a false start.....2nd and 20


----------



## zillard

Had inspections and buyer walk through at the house today. Sent X an email update, also reiterating my plan to be reimbursed for 50% of the cost to prep the house at closing as previously discussed. 

Almost immediately she called me. 

X - So everything with the inspections went ok today?

Z - Yes. I actually JUST sent you an email update about that. 

X - I saw the email. I called in sick today at work. Not feeling it. So it all went ok?

She knows it did. She just read my update. So on the call I basically repeated my update and my plan to be reimbursed for expenses. 

She then started getting into the chitchat. Seemed like she's just lonely or wanted to hear my voice. I cut her off mid sentence:

Z - Ope. The termite inspector is here. Gotta go.


----------



## zillard

Feeling proud of myself at the moment. After years of being criticized for never doing anything around the house I'm accepting that it was mostly bs.

I asked the home inspector if everything was looking good. "No, this place is falling apart." As he rolled his eyes. 

Plumber fixed a valve that froze over the winter, causing a small drip outside. He asked how long house was on the market. Told him I was surprised only one day. He said, "I'm not."

Termite inspector did finally show. "You passed 100%. This is a really nice house. How old?" I told him. "Well you've kept this in great shape!"

Nice to get some unbiased perspective. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch

Well...you are not a fixer anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Funny how much more you can actually fix when it's not a covert contract. 

Dusting, dinner, vaccuming and yard work aren't really that much of a chore when it's not payment for sex. 

Now who's the one getting propositioned?

Wocka wocka.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Funny how much more you can actually fix when it's not a covert contract.
> 
> Dusting, dinner, vaccuming and yard work aren't really that much of a chore when it's not payment for sex.
> 
> Now who's the one getting propositioned?
> 
> Wocka wocka.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You could say lately you have been...
self serving.....

Wocka wocka!


----------



## Chuck71

Anything ex did was the hardest thing known to humanity

anything I did was the easiest.

Believeable? Maybe....if it was not 100% of the time


----------



## K.C.

My, does that sound familiar Chuck. 

We could both be busy but I'd be called every two minutes to help her then she would wonder why the 2 minute job (that was really an hour job) I was doing hadn't been finished yet! 

Funny how things like pairing 3 kids worth of odd socks (oh the horror) are not 2 minute jobs to her now!


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> Anything ex did was the hardest thing known to humanity
> 
> anything I did was the easiest.
> 
> Believeable? Maybe....if it was not 100% of the time


An easy test to see if you're in the weeds with codepedence.

If your partner is routinely impatient with you and your response is to feel anxiety.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> An easy test to see if you're in the weeds with codepedence.
> 
> If your partner is routinely impatient with you and your response is to feel anxiety.


Or you just take waaaaayyyy too long to put on your dam makeup Chuck. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Or you just take waaaaayyyy too long to put on your dam makeup Chuck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I figured Chuck was one of those.


----------



## Chuck71

I usually gave the IDGAF look. Annoying to her I took the time to do it right the first time. She would sh!t jack it and guess who had to come behind her?

Z-I use Maybelline :rofl:


----------



## Chuck71

Conrad it takes a couple hours to apply all my cake puddy!


----------



## zillard

Was watching the new Hannibal series, in which the infamous cannibal provided an excellent nugget: 

The mirrors in your mind can reflect the best of yourself, not the worst of someone else.

No cake puddy needed, Chuck. Just be the gorgeous babe you are.


----------



## Chuck71

Is the series half as good as the movies IYHO?


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Is the series half as good as the movies IYHO?


I'm really liking it so far as I find psychology and behavioral analysis fascinating. More so now than ever. 

I don't think I would compare to the films though.


----------



## zillard

Super busy day today. Phone has been ringing off the hook since 6:30am. A number of work projects coming to a head all at once, which is nice. Have I mentioned I love that sense of accomplishment when a project is completed? Even better with six. 

X called twice before 9. 

Tiger hit me up at 10 - congratulating me on the house and offering to help look for a new place if I need it. 

B (from college reunion night) reached out at 11. We're meeting for lunch on Saturday. 

Taking D7 to the park and then possibly a play date in a while. 

Being a single father isn't half bad.


----------



## Conrad

You realize that in seeking her freedom, she set you free.

Quite the turn of events.


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> You realize that in seeking her freedom, she set you free.
> 
> Quite the turn of events.


BOOM!

Careful you can still trigger. But give it 24 hours and the funk will be gone.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> You realize that in seeking her freedom, she set you free.
> 
> Quite the turn of events.


Yes, a freedom I didn't want. Kicked and screamed in protest against for a bit. But am now enjoying. 

Of course a part of me will likely always miss her - or the good times with her at least. But many other parts are eager to enjoy each day and look forward to more fun down the road.


----------



## zillard

So previously X offered to take days off to spend time with D7 before the move. This is good for D7 and me so I can pack, load the truck, and do final scrub of house. Close date is May 29.

X - It was denied. I'm going to take D7s school schedule in to work today and see if I can trade the days I requested with whoever got them. I guess that weekend is a holiday weekend and people jumped on that ship months ago. 

I'm kind of pissed. Might have to burn down the building. Ill keep you updated with what happens. I'm trying my hardest to make this happen. It's really important to me. 

Z - Do you get Memorial Day off?

X - I asked for the 23rd and 24

(This I already know.) 

X - I'm not sure if we work memorial day.

Z - I do know you are trying. If you can't get days off please let me know if you work memorial day and the sunday night before. Then I will make do. Thank you.

X - I'm looking into it this evening. 

-----

I'll give her until this weekend. Then I'm making travel plans and securing a move in date regardless of her schedule.


----------



## zillard

X - When is the last day of school? The school calendar doesn't say.

So I forwarded her the message I sent on Friday.

X - Thanks.


----------



## GutPunch

zillard said:


> X - When is the last day of school? The school calendar doesn't say.
> 
> So I forwarded her the message I sent on Friday.
> 
> X - Thanks.


jeez...somethings never change


----------



## zillard

Ug. 

X called for her nightly talk with D7. I accepted, put it on speaker and handed to D as usual, then went back to cleaning up the kitchen. 

After a bit...

D - Mom, are you still friends with Dad? 

X - Well yeah!

D - Ok. Hold on. I'm going to ask Dad if he's still friends with you. Dad, are you still friends with mom? 

Z - D. You need to focus on your phone call with Mom.

D - Ok...


----------



## familyfirst09

That's sad....how come you did not say yes? Won't your D now think your not friends with her mom?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> That's sad....how come you did not say yes? Won't your D now think your not friends with her mom?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Saying "yes" would be a lie. X is no longer my friend. 

I did have a talk with D at bedtime about it. First I reiterated that when mom calls it is not about me. It is about her and her mom. 

Second. She can not fix us. It is not her fault we are divorced and nothing she does will bring us back together again. Even though that is sad.

Third. We are both her parents. We both want to do what is best for her. It is about her now, not us. We do not hang out and do things together without D anymore, like friends would do. Sometimes we will do things together (with D), but we are no longer married. We are no longer a couple. We are no longer best friends. 

She is mom. I am dad.


----------



## hope4family

While that will come across as harsh for a 7 year old. It's the truth. What is likely worse then the truth is saying a lie. 

It does sound like you left "feelings" out of it though. That's a good sign, that and you didn't blame-shift.


----------



## Openminded

hope4family said:


> While that will come across as harsh for a 7 year old. It's the truth. What is likely worse then the truth is saying a lie.
> 
> It does sound like you left "feelings" out of it though. That's a good sign, that and you didn't blame-shift.


I agree. Children are very often quick to pick up on lies from parents. They know when something is real and when it isn't. Leveling with them, in an age-appropriate manner, is always better.


----------



## Lifescript

It's best to speak the truth. Some parents act too friendly around the kids during separation. All it does is confuse them more.


----------



## zillard

She seemed to take it well last night, which is good. 

But this morning I fumbled. 

I woke really late and D and I were late to the child psych appointment. I don't do late, so felt terrible about it. This was a session for D and X together without me about the move and it cut into that important session. 

I apologized to x who said nothing but I could see a flash of anger on her face. Not going to beat myself up about it though. I guess now she knows how it feels to be disrespected like that. 

Next weeks session will also just those two so they continue that important work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

While leaving the psych office X told me her car is making a terrible noise. 

Z - What kind of noise?

X - A loud noise. When the brakes are on. When they're not on. It's not the brakes. 

Z - hmm.

I left and got D to school. Cooked an early lunch while on a conference call. Sent X a text.

Z - Did your talk with D go well?

X - Ok would have been better if we had more time. Continuing next week.

X - Gotta drop almost $300 on the car. When were the brakes done last? 

Z - For sure. No excuses. I fumbled. 

I gave her a rundown of the last brake service. Informed her she has the receipt and could get free pads if she goes back to where I had it done. 

X - Too late. Theyre doing it now. Rotors are beyond resurfacing. I looked. 

X - I'm at XXX. They've worked on our cars before. Down the street from the old place on XXXX. 

No response needed. Taking a little trip down memory lane is she? Our cars. Down the street from the house where we had D. She passed 30 miles worth of mechanics to get there.


----------



## zillard

Old Z would have made excuses. Been defensive. Blameshifted by pointing out all her no shows and times she's been late. Would have brought up that even this morning she sent me a text saying she would be late to the appointment, as usual. 

I did not. I owned it. Apologized first thing. Admitted my fumble when she hinted at it later. 

I feel really good about that. I'm not perfect. I'm not better than anyone else. 

And that's ok.


----------



## Lifescript

It's good to own our stuff even if we know they wouldn't. Good job.


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> It's good to own our stuff even if we know they wouldn't. Good job.


It really is - and has much more to do with our own happiness than anything. Due to that, whether they own their own stuff is irrelevant. For us.

Can you imagine where it would have gone had I blame shifted when she shot that flash of anger?


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Can you imagine where it would have gone had I blame shifted when she shot that flash of anger?


From personal experience? It'd be like a super bouncy ball dropped down a drain spout.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> It really is - and has much more to do with our own happiness than anything. Due to that, whether they own their own stuff is irrelevant. For us.
> 
> Can you imagine where it would have gone had I blame shifted when she shot that flash of anger?


It was when I own my stuff that I started to progress and heal. Anything else it's living with blinders on.


----------



## ReGroup

I might have blame shifted in person in that scenario. 

You did a fantastic job. Lots of self control.

And yes, we know... If you would uttered a peep, everything in her reservoir (that she's been holding in) would have been unleashed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Well it's now 6 months past DDay. 4 since X moved out. And 2 since D was final. 

I have gained back the weight that I lost. 

But new skinny jeans I purchased at my lightest still fit nicely. Holding firm at a 31" waist, down from 34.

Woot.


----------



## familyfirst09

Wow, only 6 months? And you are so strong and in control fo yourself. Not sure how you did it. Good on you. Ironically, its 8 months since DDay for me today. I'm getting there but no where near where you're at.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soca70

zillard said:


> Well it's now 6 months past DDay. 4 since X moved out. And 2 since D was final.
> 
> I have gained back the weight that I lost.
> 
> But new skinny jeans I purchased at my lightest still fit nicely. Holding firm at a 31" waist, down from 34.
> 
> Woot.


Yes the weight loss was the only upside of this. But I'm back as well coming up on 7 months. Now need to get 5 lbs off by summer. But still 25 pounds down from this time last year and in the 32" jeans.


----------



## zillard

soca70 said:


> Yes the weight loss was the only upside of this. But I'm back as well coming up on 7 months. Now need to get 5 lbs off by summer. But still 25 pounds down from this time last year and in the 32" jeans.


Yeah, I've put it back on, but it's muscle this time.


----------



## 06Daddio08

You skinny little buggers.


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> Wow, only 6 months? And you are so strong and in control fo yourself. Not sure how you did it. Good on you. Ironically, its 8 months since DDay for me today. I'm getting there but no where near where you're at.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How did I do it?

180
TAM
20 or so self help books
Therapy 2x/wk (IC and joint w/child psych)
Effort and focus
+ lots of difficult introspection


----------



## Chuck71

65 lbs and counting........and the summer is still to come


----------



## Chuck71

is closing set for 5/29?


----------



## hope4family

None of my 34/33/32 sized pants fit anymore. 

Problem is I carry IWB. So I like to have a place to stash the goods. 

Plus those smaller jeans put my ____ in quite the tight spot. BREATHE KIDS! 

Man this soda tastes good!


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> is closing set for 5/29?


Yes. 5/29. Inspections went well. Appraisal soon. Shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## Chuck71

good...... 5/29 would have been our 14th ann.

and my 24th ann from HS graduation

Kansas "Play the Game"

may be at 25th new gal can go


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> good...... 5/29 would have been our 14th ann.
> 
> and my 24th ann from HS graduation
> 
> Kansas "Play the Game"
> 
> may be at 25th new gal can go


Our 9th anniversary would have been 5/14. Will be a good night to take D7 out to dinner, then kick back with a glass of whiskey and a good horror flick.


----------



## Chuck71

JD and Burnt Offerings..... nice combo


----------



## zillard

X called to ask about some docs she received from the realtor. 

I explained. Then I asked for an update on her days off at end of May. She found out who has them off and is attempting to bribe her to switch tonight. She also said she does have mem day and sunday before off. 

Z- ok. Let me know as soon as possible. I need to secure living arrangements and flights for (my brothers). 

X - I know. I'm trying really hard. I do have the 26th (april) off. That got approved. So you can go do your running thing. When did you become a runner? I don't run unless there's a dinosaur or something. Hahha. 

Z - a while ago. It feels good. 

X - it does! Back when I used to run, 7 miles a day, EVERY day, it felt really good. I'm dying my hair black this weekend so I can get a different job. (It's purple now). This place sucks (etc). I'm quitting smoking so I can go over to (different employer). 

Z - ok. Thanks for the update. 

X - you're welcome. I'm trying to be nice. 

Z - well I have a call coming up. See you tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Then within an hour the following happened:

Tiger texted me a funny. We joked and laughed back and forth for bit. 

I went to pick up D7 from school. Pulled into the parking lot with my windows down rocking to tunes. The minivan I parked next to had a single mom I've bumped into a few times sitting there with her window down rockin out too. We both turned down our music and started talking through the windows. Laughed and joked about the adventures of kid swaps. Then she started in with the interview-ish 20 questions. 

Do you like baseball? Do you like sushi? Do you like sake? Is clear where that's going. But not yet. Let her wonder for a bit. 

Then I texted B from the other weekend. 

Z - XXXX (restaurant) tomorrow at 1pm. Do it!

B - lol. alrighty!

:smthumbup:


----------



## ReGroup

X Who?

Funny how things turn out.

In the beginning you feel like the world is crashing down on you - some time goes by, you then become a sought after commodity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

passing through the Tao....


----------



## zillard

Aha. 

VP called. Looks like me turning down the last minute business trip had the opposite effect than I first feared. 

VP - On a scale from 1-10, what's your job satisfaction?

Z - Eight.

VP - How do we get that to a 10? I don't want to lose you.

-----

Then got a call from a freelance client. New, fun side project to work on over the next week. 

I'm on fire today! Loving this new happy, confident thing. Melody Beattie is right. Overcoming codependency IS fun. We get to do what we want... and people take note.


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> Aha.
> 
> VP called. Looks like me turning down the last minute business trip had the opposite effect than I first feared.
> 
> VP - On a scale from 1-10, what's your job satisfaction?
> 
> Z - Eight.
> 
> VP - How do we get that to a 10? I don't want to lose you.
> 
> -----
> 
> Then got a call from a freelance client. New, fun side project to work on over the next week.
> 
> I'm on fire today! Loving this new happy, confident thing. Melody Beattie is right. Overcoming codependency IS fun. We get to do what we want... and people take note.


You are a huge inspiration. I don't find any of this fun....yet....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> How did I do it?
> 
> 180
> TAM
> 20 or so self help books
> Therapy 2x/wk (IC and joint w/child psych)
> Effort and focus
> + lots of difficult introspection


What were some of your key books and when the heck did you have time to read them??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> What were some of your key books and when the heck did you have time to read them??


After D7 goes to bed. Clean up. Exercise. Read.

Awareness - Anthony DeMello
Rebuilding When Your Relationship Ends - Bruce Fisher
Self-Therapy - Jay Earley
Being Happy - Andrew Matthews
I Thought We Were Happy - Jonathan L Lewis
Codependent No More - Melody Beattie
Dating for Dads - Ellie Slott Fisher
Creative Visualization - Shakti Gawain
No More Mister Nice Guy - Robert A. Glover
Married Mans Sex Life Primer - Athol Kay
Not Just Friends - Shirley P. Glass
Putting Children First: Proven Parenting Strategies for Helping Children Thrive Through Divorce - JoAnne Pedro-Carroll
Stop Walking on Eggshells - Paul Mason MS and Randi Kreger


----------



## soca70

Z - you'll be holding seminars next...


----------



## familyfirst09

Wow, great list, thank you I'm going to print it. 

So I have to ask what time does D go to bed and what time do you go to bed?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> Wow, great list, thank you I'm going to print it.
> 
> So I have to ask what time does D go to bed and what time do you go to bed?


I usually start bedtime for D around 8-8:30. Then I get to bed at 12-12:30. Sometimes I get caught up talking to Tiger and stay up late though.


----------



## familyfirst09

1230am?? What time do you get up in the morning??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> I usually start bedtime for D around 8-8:30. Then I get to bed at 12-12:30. Sometimes I get caught up talking to Tiger and stay up late though.


I've extended the kids bedtime to 8-8:30. At times I let them stay up a little longer.

I'm up at 5:15 am and try to get to bed by 11-11:30.


----------



## familyfirst09

That doesn't seem like a lot of sleep. I'm up at 520am. D's bedtime is usually 830pm. I'm usually wiped out by 10pm at the latest, altho I can see that is improving as my energy levels increase. 

So if I try to stay up til 11pm, that will give me 2 and half hours for cleaning up, exercising and reading. I should be able to fit it in even if I fall asleep while reading. 

Btw Z I went to the library today and they didn't have a single book you listed. I did find a book called "creative visualization for dummies" lol so I picked it up, thought it would be an easy read to see what it is about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

I get up at 6:30am.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Found out my mother called X yesterday, to tell her she's still welcome there when she comes to utah to see d7. 

They talked for 45 mins. X cried and told my mother that she and my dad are the only real parents she's ever had.

Dropped off D7. X was up and ready, bright and bubbly. Also told me about the call and said it was really nice.

Now I'm enjoying a beer on a restaurant patio waiting for B to show, who texted to let me know she's on her way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cobre

You go Z


----------



## zillard

We really do control our own happiness in life, even though we can't always control the circumstances and events that are thrown at us. 

Find yourself. 
Do what you like. 
Follow your passions. 
Be true and own you faults. 
Face your fears. 

Live your life.


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> We really do control our own happiness in life, even though we can't always control the circumstances and events that are thrown at us.
> 
> Find yourself.
> Do what you like.
> Follow your passions.
> Be true and own you faults.
> Face your fears.
> 
> Live your life.


Amen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Last night I called to say goodnight to D7. When I was done I hung up. X called me back. 

X - Did you hang up? I wanted to talk to you.

Z - Yeah, I thought she was done. 

She went on and on but nothing new. She repeated how hard she tried to get days off before the move. How much she hates her employers. How she's dying her hair to move to a different company. 

Z - I do see that you tried. I understand and appreciate the effort. 

X - Thank you. Thank you for appreciating it. 

Z - Well have a good night. I'll see you two tomorrow. 

It was obvious she didn't want to end the call. 
----

I got a text from Tiger. "Gimme a call if you get bored later!"

So I did. I didn't go out. Stayed in and spent my night with her on the phone.

Z - Hey there. I didn't get bored, but I did want to hear your voice. 

We spoke for hours. She is refreshing. I really don't have fear of holding anything back when speaking with her. Completely open. She asked about situation with X - if she's ever said anything about R. I told her no, not once. Was open about caring for X - something that will always be there on some level. It seems to be something she really respects. Said it's impressive how I have not let myself be consumed with anger. 

So we got into deep introspective healing work, etc. Living by the Four Agreements. Learning to not take things personally.

I had a great night. After ending the call, got a text from her. 

T - I love talking to you, I always look forward to it! Have a good night


----------



## whitehawk

Hey Z . Being able to talk is everything to me.
lt means trust,calm,ease, for me eveything
else stems rom that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Like mom said a couple months ago "she did you a favor by leaving. she set you free." I had no idea she would turn into Plato.


----------



## zillard

whitehawk said:


> Hey Z . Being able to talk is everything to me.
> lt means trust,calm,ease, for me eveything
> else stems rom that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I completely agree, hawk. That is one necessity in any relationship I have in the future. 

Honest, open, frequent communication.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> I completely agree, hawk. That is one necessity in any relationship I have in the future.
> 
> Honest, open, frequent communication.


It's one thing of many that my relationship lacks and is killing us. Like you, I'll make it a priority in any future relationship.


----------



## zillard

I had another excellent conversation with Tiger last night. 

She spoke of her weekend. How she went out on the town by herself, simply enjoying random encounters with strangers and having a nice time with herself. 

Someone called her weird for it. I completely disagree. It shows a certain level of confidence. Comfort with herself. As you know here, I make an effort to do just that on the weekends and find it very therapeutic. 

We got into the difference between loneliness and aloneness and how most people can't differentiate the two. Which naturally led to talk of codependent attachment in relationships. I brought up how I think the "two become one" crap in marriage vows is damaging. How good relationships should not be two people hiking the same path, but hiking parallel paths that head in the same direction. 

Individuality and "me" time are very important. She spoke of how it goes back to balance. "The art of keeping a healthy balance in everything you do."

She sounded just like Mavash's recent post on balance in ReGroup's thread. How great is that!?


----------



## Lifescript

Q. Why you call her tiger?


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> Q. Why you call her tiger?


The giant tiger tattoo she has down her back.


----------



## Conrad

Lifescript said:


> Q. Why you call her tiger?


He has everyone on this board thinking about her Tiger Tattoo.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> The giant tiger tattoo she has down her back.


Goodness gracious!

Yes, she is great!


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> The giant tiger tattoo she has down her back.


My new "friend" has a giant octopus tattoo. I've never really cared for tattoos on women but, damn, it's sexy on her!

Keep living Z.

:toast:


----------



## hope4family

I'm not big on tatoo's either. But I think if I ever date/get serious with a girl who is thinking about it. I'll have them put my name on them. 

I'm crazy like that.


----------



## Pbartender

So, Z. I keep wondering...

If I remember right, and correct me if I'm wrong, your divorce is final. Then, why do you keep posting here, instead of in the "Life After Divorce" forum?


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> So, Z. I keep wondering...
> 
> If I remember right, and correct me if I'm wrong, your divorce is final. Then, why do you keep posting here, instead of in the "Life After Divorce" forum?


The ease of keeping my story in one spot... for now. 

Also because this house and state were things I did with and for X. Yes, the divorce is final. But I feel the house sale, move with D7, and joint sessions with X are the closing chapters in this volume of my life.


----------



## zillard

One more month to go until everything outlined in the divorce paperwork is completed and in place.


----------



## zillard

Email from X. 

1. PTO at work has been shut down until June, those d!cks... 

2. One of the girls at work might be willing to give me her PTO day for May XXth. If that works, please let me know. 

3. I would like to take D7 to Grammas this weekend if that's alright with you. I would love for her to see my family before you guys leave. It's a quick trip and I just had the [car] serviced so it should be good. 

4. I'm trying to get in touch with the MVD to figure out the car title thing, but I keep getting a busy signal. I'll keep trying, but they suck. 

5. Is the [car] still insured, or do I need to take care of that? I have no idea. 

-----

She then called to go over this. All was fine until we got to #5. I told her that the insurance on her car was cancelled the day the divorce was finalized. She got angry and told me I never let her know. 

Z - I see things differently. We discussed this in IC's office. 

X - Yes, but then you said it was covered and never let me know it wasn't. 

Z - That was the time period in between when the papers were filed and when they were finalized. 

X - I'm really upset that I've been driving around with our child since February with no insurance! Good thing I didn't get pulled over. 

Z - I agree.

-----

I then responded by email so things were in writing:

1. I'm sorry to hear that.

2. I am planning on loading the truck and cleaning on May XXth, leaving for XXXX the morning of the XXth, and then XXXX to XXXXX on the XXth.

3. I am fine with you taking D7 to see your Grandma over the weekend. I think it will be good for all of you. As discussed, I would appreciate travel updates (and I plan to do the same).

4. Thank you. Please see [car] paperwork attached. 

5. I have not maintained insurance on your car since the divorce was finalized. After that date it was no longer my responsibility. I apologize if I did not make that clear.


----------



## zillard

X replied:

Honestly, I'm kind of angry about the insurance thing. I've been driving uninsured with our child in the car. But I'm not blowing up about it, because I've been working on that. 

Thank you for the [car] stuff.

Z - I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm upset that you have been too.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> X replied:
> 
> Honestly, I'm kind of angry about the insurance thing. I've been driving uninsured with our child in the car. But I'm not blowing up about it, because I've been working on that.
> 
> Thank you for the [car] stuff.
> 
> Z - I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm upset that you have been too.


I like all of it except the apology.

It was abundantly clear.

She was just "too busy" to make time for it.


----------



## Pbartender

Okay, I'm confused. This...



zillard said:


> I've been driving uninsured with our child in the car.


...doesn't really make any sense to me. The car is uninsured, not the child.

What difference does it make whether or not D7 is in the car while it's uninsured?


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> I like all of it except the apology.
> 
> It was abundantly clear.
> 
> She was just "too busy" to make time for it.


Yes, it would've been better had I left that out. I was appeasing her unnecessarily. I'm probably getting lax because I see her improving. 



zillard said:


> Is the [car] still insured, or do I need to take care of that? I have no idea.


Both our names were on it. A simple call to the insurance co could have cleared it up for her. 



zillard said:


> X replied...
> 
> Honestly, I'm kind of angry about the insurance thing. I've been driving uninsured with our child in the car. *But I'm not blowing up about it, because I've been working on that.*


It's actually pretty funny how she's shifting blame *and* looking for praise at the same time. 

Not surprising though after the nibble I threw her. 

One thing I have noticed... I don't get knots in my stomach anymore when I see these emails/calls come in. 

If she does throw back a response to my last email after work: 

"I never agreed to continue insuring your car"

or 

"Did you expect me to continue insuring your car?"


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> Okay, I'm confused. This...
> 
> ...doesn't really make any sense to me. The car is uninsured, not the child.
> 
> What difference does it make whether or not D7 is in the car while it's uninsured?


Because I get super duper coverage that pays medical costs for me and my passengers, over and above health insurance.


----------



## Chuck71

Z-It is perfectly ok for her to drop you from medical coverage

but OMG you dropped her from auto insurance 

Zs not playing fair :rofl:


----------



## hope4family

Z, this is par for the course. 

My ex-wife (as of tomorrow) said she wanted to start paying her half of the car insurance two months ago. 

Told her what it cost, she hasn't mentioned it since. 

Just sayin, it's typical.


----------



## Pbartender

hope4family said:


> Z, this is par for the course.
> 
> My ex-wife (as of tomorrow) said she wanted to start paying her half of the car insurance two months ago.
> 
> Told her what it cost, she hasn't mentioned it since.
> 
> Just sayin, it's typical.


Yep, it sure is. Read some of my recent posts. My AXW was complaining about paying for my cell phone as a part of the family cell phone plan... until I mentioned the mortgage and utility bills that she hasn't been contributing to.


----------



## hope4family

Pbartender said:


> Yep, it sure is. Read some of my recent posts. My AXW was complaining about paying for my cell phone as a part of the family cell phone plan... until I mentioned the mortgage and utility bills that she hasn't been contributing to.


For sure. 

If they pay for one thing (buys their kid diapers/pair of jeans). Expect them to brag and be upset about it. 

But if say for example, she takes the kid for a weekend, asks to use your diapers because she is out, and returns with nothing but an empty bag (with none of his weekend clothes) and a c'ya later then that's not something you should complain about.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Z, this is par for the course.
> 
> My ex-wife (as of tomorrow) said she wanted to start paying her half of the car insurance two months ago.
> 
> Told her what it cost, she hasn't mentioned it since.
> 
> Just sayin, it's typical.


We had an agreement before she ever moved out. 

She keeps me on her health insurance until D is final.
I keep her on car insurance until D is final. 

She's just upset because she's starting to wake up now that we're leaving and is realizing everything she has spaced. Easier to put some of it on me. 

In the last 2 weeks she has:

Decided to change jobs (allegedly)
Decided to quit smoking (allegedly)
Got up and ready for kid swap
Taken D to aquarium
Decided to take D to grandmas
Got her car serviced
Remembered to do the title work
Thought about car insurance
Tried to get PTO to help with move
Offered to help with move

Nothing like crunch time. 

Nice to see the effort. Good for her. 

Doesn't change my plans.


----------



## familyfirst09

Is it a case of a little too late? I think I'm in the same boat so would like to understand your reasoning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

It doesn't matter if you have an agreement or not. It's the script is all I am saying.


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> Is it a case of a little too late? I think I'm in the same boat so would like to understand your reasoning.


That, and it's still mostly talk. 

Did she change jobs to have more time with D before the move? No.

Sure, she got denied a shift change. Finding a new job in her field is difficult at the moment. yada yada. 

When I want something, I do what it takes. Deliver sandwiches. Work temp jobs. Find freelance work. Sell my stuff. If she was really motivated to be around D more - she would be. Nothing would stop her.

She calls in sick to work because she's "not feeling it". Has she ever called in sick to hang with D? No.

She does take extra days with D here and there. When I request it. Has she asked for one herself? No.


----------



## Chuck71

"She calls in sick to work because she's "not feeling it". =

Bad hangover


----------



## zillard

X - Please don't mention the possible trip to [grandmas] to D7. The a/c took a ship yesterday and I can't get it fixed today.

X - They have to pull the dash off and I don't have time.

Z- I did this morning. Figured we'd have to pack differently so she'd know anyway. She'll be ok if you don't go. Will talk to her in a minute when I pick her up.

---------

Must suck to all of a sudden have less than 1/3 of the income you're accustomed to and have to worry about stuff like car maintenance and insurance. 

Meanwhile my grass is still looking great.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> X - Please don't mention the possible trip to [grandmas] to D7. The a/c took a ship yesterday and I can't get it fixed today.
> 
> X - They have to pull the dash off and I don't have time.
> 
> Z- I did this morning. Figured we'd have to pack differently so she'd know anyway. She'll be ok if you don't go. Will talk to her in a minute when I pick her up.
> 
> ---------
> 
> Must suck to all of a sudden have less than 1/3 of the income you're accustomed to and have to worry about stuff like car maintenance and insurance.
> 
> Meanwhile my grass is still looking great.


It's called being reliable. Not her fault the A/C went out though. But it does make me wonder if its more "convenience." Meh.


----------



## dscl

zillard said:


> That, and it's still mostly talk.
> 
> Did she change jobs to have more time with D before the move? No.
> 
> Sure, she got denied a shift change. Finding a new job in her field is difficult at the moment. yada yada.
> 
> When I want something, I do what it takes. Deliver sandwiches. Work temp jobs. Find freelance work. Sell my stuff. If she was really motivated to be around D more - she would be. Nothing would stop her.
> 
> She calls in sick to work because she's "not feeling it". Has she ever called in sick to hang with D? No.
> 
> She does take extra days with D here and there. When I request it. Has she asked for one herself? No.


My stbxw is the same way. She will move heaven and earth if it's something for her, but for me or D, nope.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> It's called being reliable. Not her fault the A/C went out though. But it does make me wonder if its more "convenience." Meh.


She called to discuss.

It's not even a big deal. She said it only works when it's on full blast. 

From what she described it's not a problem with the a/c unit. Same thing happened when I was driving it last year. It was the knob. Fiddled with it a bit and it worked fine all summer. I then checked refrigerant levels and tested the relays. All was good.

She told me about her trip to the mechanic. Which one she went to. They are jerking her around because she's a girl. She needs coffee. 

Z - Please let me know if you are going or not in time for me to pack her correctly. 

X - ok. will do.


----------



## zillard

She then called again. 

My guess is she's searching for handyman Z - the guy who used to jump at the chance to get dirty and greasy fixing her cars, even when we first started dating. 

He is now retired.


----------



## turnera

Stop taking her calls, Z.


----------



## Chuck71

Try charging her what any one else would who would do a fair and honest job......but you could hear her scream in Montana I'd bet


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Stop taking her calls, Z.


Hmm. I probably should as they are becoming more chit chat than D7. 

It's weird though, they don't seem to bother me like they did before.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Hmm. I probably should as they are becoming more chit chat than D7.
> 
> It's weird though, they don't seem to bother me like they did before.


Why should they?


----------



## Canardo

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Why should they?


To ask it is to answer it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

Yeah, my X is the same. In 5 years he's taken vacation for the start of hunting season but yet has never taken time for a family vacation, not even a weekend away....oh wait we did go away one weekend last year....it was a shooting tournament.....

Z I admire your strength.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

ff, start saving money and go on your OWN vacation.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> ff, start saving money and go on your OWN vacation.


Absolutely!!

My X moved out late December. Twice already I've treated myself to mini vacations - getting a hotel room downtown (40 miles away) and enjoying myself. 

The first time (New Years Eve) I planned on celebrating alone and was fully prepared to do so. After arriving though I was contacted by a friend looking for something to do, so he met up with me and we had a great time. 

Now tomorrow I'm heading to Vegas for a weekend of fun with Tiger. Had she backed out... I would still go!

Treat yourself. You deserve it. Let yourself be a Queen for a bit.


----------



## turnera

If my D did that, I would find out exactly how much money he spent hunting - ammo, beers, all of it. I would then take out an equal amount out of the checking or savings account and put it into a separate account that only I could access. Then, I could take a vacation the same week he goes, next year (or any other time, to REALLY piss him off), or I'd save it up and go on a fabulous cruise or something.


----------



## familyfirst09

When this is all settled I plan on taking a well deserved vacation!! D and I had "family" vacations together - mostly camping, he just never went. 

I'm planning a spa night away for myself in the very near future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Child psych appointment this morning. 

On the way there I received a text. Didn't need to look to know it was from X telling me she'd be a little late. Sure enough that's what it was. 

D7 and I chatted with the IC in the lobby while awaiting her arrival. Then they did their session - the three girls together as I waited in the lobby reading a book on design. 

X came out halfway through in tears and told me D7 was requesting her pencil box so she could draw. I went out to the car to grab it while X stood in the doorway watching me. 

The session ended. D7 and IC came out smiling. X in tears still. She followed us to my car and buckled D7 into her seat. She leaned in to kiss D7 goodbye. D7 puckered up for a kiss then at the last minute stuck out her tongue, licking X's face chuckling. 

On the ride to the school I asked D7 if her talk went well. She said yes. I asked if she wanted to talk about it. She said she wanted to keep it between the girls, so I told that was just fine. I put on tunes and sang on the way to school. 

I got home and received a call from my mother. She was out and about and saw a house I might be interested in. 1910 home, remodeled on 1/4 acre, across the street from the elementary school I attended. Two blocks from the park, 2.5 from my parent's home.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Child psych appointment this morning.
> 
> On the way there I received a text. Didn't need to look to know it was from X telling me she'd be a little late. Sure enough that's what it was.
> 
> D7 and I chatted with the IC in the lobby while awaiting her arrival. Then they did their session - the three girls together as I waited in the lobby reading a book on design.
> 
> X came out halfway through in tears and told me D7 was requesting her pencil box so she could draw. I went out to the car to grab it while X stood in the doorway watching me.
> 
> The session ended. D7 and IC came out smiling. X in tears still. She followed us to my car and buckled D7 into her seat. She leaned in to kiss D7 goodbye. D7 puckered up for a kiss then at the last minute stuck out her tongue, licking X's face chuckling.
> 
> On the ride to the school I asked D7 if her talk went well. She said yes. I asked if she wanted to talk about it. She said she wanted to keep it between the girls, so I told that was just fine. I put on tunes and sang on the way to school.
> 
> I got home and received a call from my mother. She was out and about and saw a house I might be interested in. 1910 home, remodeled on 1/4 acre, across the street from the elementary school I attended. Two blocks from the park, 2.5 from my parent's home.


I'm falling in love with your kid.

She likely has very lively eyes - my favorite kind of girl.


----------



## zillard

X called. I turned the ringer off and let it go to voicemail. 

She said she was just calling to see what time I was planning on dropping off D7 tomorrow on my way out of town. Said she needs to know in order to decide when to have her rental car dropped off. 

We already spoke about that on Sunday. I asked if she was ok with 10am. She agreed. 

If she is having a rental car dropped off, it shouldn't matter if D7 is there yet or not. 

Likely just wanted to chat again. 

Will send a short text in a bit confirming 10am.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> I'm falling in love with your kid.
> 
> She likely has very lively eyes - my favorite kind of girl.


She absolutely does! HUGE blue eyes with long lashes that pierce your soul.


----------



## zillard

I won't leave this up for long, but such a proud papa I've got to share.


----------



## Conrad

Impossible to like that enough.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Impossible to like that enough.


You'd never think her mother is a mexican/sicilian mix, right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> You'd never think her mother is a mexican/sicilian mix, right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only the fire in her eyes gives that away.


----------



## Awakening2012

What a cutie pie, and what stunningly beautiful eyes!


----------



## Pbartender

She looks like she belongs in a Chuck Jones cartoon.

What a fantastic smile.


----------



## turnera

Adorable. She looks SO smart.

The Mexican part must have been from the Spanish Mexicans. We get lots of blonde Mexicans and South Americans here to shop. Hmmm, could be all that German blood after WWII.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> She looks like she belongs in a Chuck Jones cartoon.
> 
> What a fantastic smile.


As a baby she looked just like a Cupie doll.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Adorable. She looks SO smart.
> 
> The Mexican part must have been from the Spanish Mexicans. We get lots of blonde Mexicans and South Americans here to shop. Hmmm, could be all that German blood after WWII.


She is too smart. Tested at a grade equivalent of 3.6. In 1st grade. 

I'm definitely in trouble later. 

Her mother does have fair-ish complexion but almost black hair.


----------



## Chuck71

How your ex could walk away from D7...... has the X been tested???

I have a feeling by 2020 she will have papa up till 1 AM wondering where she is at!


----------



## dscl

Z- You have a little angel there, I'm happy for you!


----------



## Decorum

Beautiful daughter. Bless her heart!


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> I have a feeling by 2020 she will have papa up till 1 AM wondering where she is at!


No way. I'll be checking a GPS tracker on one screen while watching the hidden camera on the other.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Gorgeous.

Our daughters would cause a lot of trouble together. Lol.


----------



## Lifescript

God bless your daughter Z. She's beautiful. You are a great father.


----------



## K.C.

zillard said:


> No way. I'll be checking a GPS tracker on one screen while watching the hidden camera on the other.


I know its way off but please tell me you have a gun collection to casually show off to potential suitors? Pretty and smart is a dangerous combination, I'm so glad i only have boys!


----------



## hope4family

K.C. said:


> I know its way off but please tell me you have a gun collection to casually show off to potential suitors? Pretty and smart is a dangerous combination, I'm so glad i only have boys!


Even if he does, im sure it will grow. As in 100% sure.


----------



## zillard

So...

I had an excellent vacation in Vegas. I really can't think of any way that it could have been improved. 

I arrived and checked into the room and was joined by Tiger about an hour later. We picked up our packets for the run and ran into old friends, chatted a bit and went back to the strip. 

Went out on the strip sightseeing. Rode the roller coaster at the NYNY then stopped for dinner. I decided to be adventurous and try sushi again. I had only tried it once before and didn't like it. We got a few different kinds and I learned I really do like some kinds, others not so much. I'm glad I didn't just write off all sushi like I have in the past. 

We explored more and had an excellent evening. 

In the morning we participated in the run, which was a great combination of exercise and fun. Part of the strip and Fremont were closed down for it. During the run you pass through a bunch of colored bubble pits. Mountains of bubbles spraying everywhere, staining everything. 

Went back to the hotel and cleaned up for another night out. Explored the strip more and probably walked another 5-10 miles. Stopped at an arcade and played air hockey and skee ball. Threw darts at balloons. We alternated between deep conversation, joking and small bouts of very comfortable silence - just enjoying the moments. 

We went to the Stratosphere and had a blast on the rides at the top. Then we went a few floors down and had an excellent dinner in a rotating restaurant. I got adventurous again and tried some portobello. I had written off mushrooms as a kid and never gave them a chance as an adult. It was really good. We stayed until right before the restaurant closed. 

Had another excellent evening and had some very frank relationship discussions. She is somewhat concerned this is too much too fast for me and is reigning herself in to be respectful of my situation. We agreed we should live in the present, be open and honest with each other, and have no expectations. 

The next day we stopped at our old friends' house. Reconnected with them and met their kids. Then we said our goodbyes and parted ways - driving hundreds of miles in opposite directions. 

Life is grand.


----------



## zillard

Tiger asked me if I was ok with her posting photos I took of the run on facebook, as she is still friends with X. 

I thanked her for asking. Very respectful. 

Z - She'll find out eventually anyway - I'm not worried about it. 

T - I only half believe you.

Z - If I was not ok with it I wouldn't have sent you the photos. They are yours now. 

She did this morning.


----------



## K.C.

Sounds fantastic Z.

Did you find yourself as shocked as i am at there being someone that takes you as you are, no bs and somehow accepts your situation without running for the hills?

Someone that is considerate and can respect boundaries voluntarily must be a massive breath of fresh air.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> tiger asked me if i was ok with her posting photos i took of the run on facebook, as she is still friends with x.
> 
> I thanked her for asking. Very respectful.
> 
> Z - she'll find out eventually anyway - i'm not worried about it.
> 
> T - i only half believe you.
> 
> Z - if i was not ok with it i wouldn't have sent you the photos. They are yours now.
> 
> She did this morning.


5....4..........3...............2...............1................


----------



## zillard

K.C. said:


> Sounds fantastic Z.
> 
> Did you find yourself as shocked as i am at there being someone that takes you as you are, no bs and somehow accepts your situation without running for the hills?
> 
> Someone that is considerate and can respect boundaries voluntarily must be a massive breath of fresh air.


A great big, gigantic, mouth watering breath of fresh mountain air. 

Truly an excellent surprise.


----------



## GutPunch

zillard said:


> So...
> 
> I had an excellent vacation in Vegas. I really can't think of any way that it could have been improved.
> 
> I arrived and checked into the room and was joined by Tiger about an hour later. We picked up our packets for the run and ran into old friends, chatted a bit and went back to the strip.
> 
> Went out on the strip sightseeing. Rode the roller coaster at the NYNY then stopped for dinner. I decided to be adventurous and try sushi again. I had only tried it once before and didn't like it. We got a few different kinds and I learned I really do like some kinds, others not so much. I'm glad I didn't just write off all sushi like I have in the past.
> 
> We explored more and had an excellent evening.
> 
> In the morning we participated in the run, which was a great combination of exercise and fun. Part of the strip and Fremont were closed down for it. During the run you pass through a bunch of colored bubble pits. Mountains of bubbles spraying everywhere, staining everything.
> 
> Went back to the hotel and cleaned up for another night out. Explored the strip more and probably walked another 5-10 miles. Stopped at an arcade and played air hockey and skee ball. Threw darts at balloons. We alternated between deep conversation, joking and small bouts of very comfortable silence - just enjoying the moments.
> 
> We went to the Stratosphere and had a blast on the rides at the top. Then we went a few floors down and had an excellent dinner in a rotating restaurant. I got adventurous again and tried some portobello. I had written off mushrooms as a kid and never gave them a chance as an adult. It was really good. We stayed until right before the restaurant closed.
> 
> Had another excellent evening and had some very frank relationship discussions. She is somewhat concerned this is too much too fast for me and is reigning herself in to be respectful of my situation. We agreed we should live in the present, be open and honest with each other, and have no expectations.
> 
> The next day we stopped at our old friends' house. Reconnected with them and met their kids. Then we said our goodbyes and parted ways - driving hundreds of miles in opposite directions.
> 
> Life is grand.


That's fantastic.

However...this post seems a little vague for a Z post.

Where are the intricate details as usual? Did you not have your VAR running?


----------



## zillard

GutPunch said:


> That's fantastic.
> 
> However...this post seems a little vague for a Z post.
> 
> Where are the intricate details as usual? Did you not have your VAR running?


Every single moment is recorded verbatim in my head. 

And it's all mine. You can not have it.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Every single moment is recorded verbatim in my head.
> 
> And it's all mine. You can not have it.


The Garden GutPunch is curious.

BTW - that Coney Island coaster is fun.

I also really like the old Excalibur Hotel - which was new back when I road the coaster the first time.

The Palomino Club is a good watering hole if you don't have anyone with you

And, the cuisine at the Bellagio is first rate.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> 5....4..........3...............2...............1................


I stopped to pickup D7 on my way home last night. 

X was more chatty than ever. They had just returned from their out of state visit with her grandparents an hour early. X had cleaned up and was in another new dress, full makeup. D7 had not had a bath. I noticed that the plants in her apartment are dying. She was always more the green thumb. (My indoor plants are doing great, and the tomatoes in my garden are ripening up). 

She wanted to show me some photos on her phone "even though you probably don't even care, I want to show you."

I glanced and said "cool", then back to D7. 

X asked about the run. If I did well. If it was fun. Asked about the drive. Told me she tried to look up the race online but "there we hundreds of races in Vegas this weekend". 

I had previously told D7 about the bubbles. She asked before I went if there would be pink ones. 

So I told D7 that there were indeed pink bubbles. Also that the same run will be in our area in a couple weeks. I told them that I know some of the people working it who want me to bring D7 to see the bubbles. However it will be on a Saturday so we will have to go early before I drop D7 off. 

X told me it'd be fine to drop her off later than usual if giant pink bubbles were involved.

-------

Now just heard from Realtor. Appraisal came in lower than offer. Buyer doesn't have cash for difference. X and I need to decide if we'll accept appraised value or relist and wait for a cash buyer. 

I do not want to wait.


----------



## GutPunch

Conrad said:


> The Garden GutPunch is curious.
> 
> BTW - that Coney Island coaster is fun.
> 
> I also really like the old Excalibur Hotel - which was new back when I road the coaster the first time.
> 
> The Palomino Club is a good watering hole if you don't have anyone with you
> 
> And, the cuisine at the Bellagio is first rate.


NO...Just AWARE.

Aware that Z is not giving the full scoop. 

I know it's dry in Vegas. I hope it rained while he was there.

How was the weather Z?


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> So...
> 
> I had an excellent vacation in Vegas. I really can't think of any way that it could have been improved.
> 
> I arrived and checked into the room and was joined by *Tiger* about an hour later. We picked up our packets for the run and ran into old friends, chatted a bit and went back to the strip.
> 
> Went out on the strip sightseeing. Rode the roller coas*t*er at the NYNY then stopped for dinner. I decided to be *a*dventurous and try sushi again. I had only tried it once before and didn't like it. We got a few different kinds and I learned I really do like some kinds, others not so much. I'm glad I didn't just write off all sushi like I have in the past.
> 
> We explored more and had an excellent evening.
> 
> In the morning we par*t*icipated in the run, which was a great combination of exercise and fun. Part of the s*t*rip and Fremont were closed down for it. During the run you pass through a bunch of colored bubble pits. Mountains of bubbles spraying everywhere, staining everything.
> 
> Went back to the h*o*tel and cleaned up for another night out. Expl*o*red the strip more and probably walked another 5-10 miles. Stopped at an arcade and played air hockey and skee ball. Threw darts at balloons. We alternated between deep conversation, joking and small bouts of very comfortable silence - just enjoying the moments.


Read between the lines, GP.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Read between the lines, GP.


Laughing out loud.

Does it look as good up close?


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Does it look as good up close?


Oh yes. Much better up close.


----------



## GutPunch

Praise be to the rainy season!


----------



## Ceegee

Conrad said:


> Laughing out loud.
> 
> Does it look as good up close?


I'm going to hang out on this thread all night. I don't want to miss another one of those "limited time only" pictures again.


----------



## hope4family

This is what I read....

#went back to the strip. 
#Went out on the strip
#Part of the strip 
#Explored the strip more and probably walked another 5-10 miles

The icing on the cake was.....
"We alternated between deep conversation, joking and small bouts of very comfortable silence"

SSSUUURRREEE you alternated.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> Now just heard from Realtor. Appraisal came in lower than offer. Buyer doesn't have cash for difference. X and I need to decide if we'll accept appraised value or relist and wait for a cash buyer.
> 
> I do not want to wait.


X called after I sent a text about the appraisal. 

"just get rid of it. the house needs to go"

:smthumbup:

Less profit. A little disappointing. Did it ruin my day? 

Absolutely not!


----------



## zillard

GutPunch said:


> Praise be to the rainy season!


I think there will be a small drought until the move. B wants to possibly get together this weekend. I'm pretty sure I don't want to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> 5....4..........3...............2...............1................


5:00pm

X called. Hysterical. Crying. 

X - I lost control of the [car] and ran into a pole. I'm f^cked! I don't know what to do!?

I told her to take a breath and calm down. She said they (no idea who) called an ambulance but she doesn't need one because she's fine. Her hand is all bloody but only because the windshield caved in on her. 

X - They offered to call the cops and I said no but they did anyway. F^ckers. 

She said she just used her last sick day and so is basically fired. 

X - So don't expect benefits for D7 as those are gone too.

Z - We can talk about that later. Focus on today. 

She was bawling the whole time so some of it I couldn't make out. She either said she did take an anxiety pill or needed one, but couldn't say that because the cops were coming. 

She said she doesn't know how this could happen as she's always been a good driver. Kept repeating that she had no cigarettes. Said the entire front of her car is smashed. 

Z - What happened?

X - I don't know. I was driving and then I'm smashed into a pole!

Kept saying she didn't need an ambulance. I told her she needs to let them check her out. 

X - They are coming. I guess I'll talk to you later as they will be poking and prodding at me. 

Z - Let them. 

X - But I'm fine. Just a bloody hand. 

Z - You don't know that. 

Then she hung up. 

Oy.


----------



## turnera

I hope she's ok!


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> I hope she's ok!


I do too.

I mentioned she might have a concussion. She insisted she did not.

However, it sounded like she woke up to the situation. Meaning she either fell asleep at the wheel or hit her head during the wreck. 

Nothing really for me to do but wait and find out.


----------



## Lifescript

Sounds like she'll be fine.


----------



## terrence4159

just think Z you are getting closer to moving back and that much closer to shooting the best sniper rifle on the planet (not my opinion the best sniper the USA produced CHRIS KYLE R.I.P.)


----------



## zillard

My mother called to talk about a house she's looking into. 

I told her about X's wreck. 

M - She's probably scared to death because she's alone.

Z - Yes, but that's what she chose. She needs to live with the consequences. She no longer has a husband to the rescue. 

M - Z.. I love you..... I'm not even sure you should call her. Don't know that's the right thing to do.


----------



## Conrad

She'll likely browse Facebook while in the hospital.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> She'll likely browse Facebook while in the hospital.


If she didn't already. 

One too many anti-anxiety pills would make sense.


----------



## Chuck71

Her reply on the house sell indicated she probably saw the FB post. As for the wreck, sometimes when heavy drinkers stop suddenly they can have a PNES seizure.


----------



## zillard

No phone call yet tonight for D7. I enjoyed a nice IPA while cooking a broccoli pot pie with a vegan roux. 

About to put D7 to bed. 

Meanwhile, Tiger posted a great quote:

Life is too short. Grudges are a waste of perfect happiness. Laugh when you can, apologize when you should and let go of what you can't change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

Hope she is ok.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> If she didn't already.
> 
> One too many anti-anxiety pills would make sense.


Sadly, that makes sense.

Resist the temptation to own it - even if true.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Resist the temptation to own it - even if true.


I cannot control her reactions.
I am not responsible for her hardships.
It is not my place to fix this.

^ That is what I'm telling myself today. 

I woke and found myself checking my phone instantly. Find myself worried for her. Thought about calling to check up. 

Feelings which are ok, to a certain extent. As long as I don't get reactive.

She told me she was physically fine.
She did not ask for my help.
She said the cops and EMTs were there.


----------



## 06Daddio08

She's the mother of your child, it's within your right to be concerned for her well being if something legit happens to her. As it no doubt plays on you a bit (which is okay) and the concern you have for your daughter, it's all connected.

If she said she was physically okay on the phone (other than a bloody hand), she should be the one to contact you in the event it has worsened.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> She's the mother of your child, it's within your right to be concerned for her well being if something legit happens to her. As it no doubt plays on you a bit (which is okay) and the concern you have for your daughter, it's all connected.
> 
> If she said she was physically okay on the phone (other than a bloody hand), she should be the one to contact you in the event it has worsened.


I agree about the call. She said she would talk to me later. When is up to her. 

I did great last night. Went to bed a bit early and slept very well. This morning I'm triggering though. Not having heard anything and her missing her normal call to D7 has stirred up some sh!t. 

I had a brother die in a car wreck. Another went on a motorcycle. Those were rough times and they are fresher today. Bubbling up. 

But I'm conscious of what I am feeling and why. And that really helps immensely. I will be able to actively sort that from this today with some effort.


----------



## 06Daddio08

I'm sorry about your brothers. She will call when she is ready to, in her own sense of time.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> I'm sorry to about your brothers. She will call when she is ready to, in her own sense of time.


Thank you. 

My brother who died in the car wreck was closest to me in age. My best friend. He was troubled with addiction. I fell into somewhat of a co-dependent role with him for some time. When I moved away to better my life - put myself through college and then dive into my career - I couldn't help but feel that I abandoned him in a way. 

Those feelings really came to a head when he passed. I was states away and was not there for him. Eventually I became familiar with survivor's guilt and did my best to work through it. Now that I look at it with knowledge of co-dependency I see it was a bit more than that. 

The situation with X has brought a lot of that up due to the similarities. They were both best friends. Both troubled. I tried to fix them both. Eventually I had to break away and focus on myself or be dragged down with them. And then they crashed (in more ways than one).

But the new me has clarity. I'm much more aware of myself, my feelings, and their origins. More importantly what is and is not my responsibility. Which helps to prevent putting unnecessary guilt and blame on myself. 

Still incredibly rough, but I feel truly capable now when before I felt weak and shameful... so I hid from myself.


----------



## Chuck71

If my ex was in a car wreck and I was not sure how she was, yes I would worry. We had no kids but I raised hers. I have relatives I can not stand but if they were tragically in an accident, yes it would bother me. I know I ramble about my ex owning her own emotions and I stand by it. But if she were taken away, yes I promise you I would shed tears. But of the person she was at one time. At one time...... and every time I think back......I picture us sipping coffee at the back porch....she made me feel like a king. As you read history, kings fall. Was the conviction over your emotions or your concern over D's emotional well-being?


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> Thank you.
> 
> My brother who died in the car wreck was closest to me in age. My best friend. He was troubled with addiction. I fell into somewhat of a co-dependent role with him for some time. When I moved away to better my life - put myself through college and then dive into my career - I couldn't help but feel that I abandoned him in a way.
> 
> Those feelings really came to a head when he passed. I was states away and was not there for him. Eventually I became familiar with survivor's guilt and did my best to work through it. Now that I look at it with knowledge of co-dependency I see it was a bit more than that.
> 
> The situation with X has brought a lot of that up due to the similarities. They were both best friends. Both troubled. I tried to fix them both. Eventually I had to break away and focus on myself or be dragged down with them. And then they crashed (in more ways than one).
> 
> But the new me has clarity. I'm much more aware of myself, my feelings, and their origins. More importantly what is and is not my responsibility. Which helps to prevent putting unnecessary guilt and blame on myself.
> 
> Still incredibly rough, but I feel truly capable now when before I felt weak and shameful... so I hid from myself.


I can relate so much with this Z. Not only with the W but also my brother who in all likelihood has a personality disorder. He went really down hill when I married and left the house. We had been inseparable (we are twins). Always felt like I had abandoned him. I don't feel that way anymore.


----------



## zillard

Well it looks like she is fine. 

My brother is still on her facebook. She posted a while ago "wear your seatbelts kids" with the following pic:










I'm glad she's ok. She's lucky she finally got insurance last week. 

Too bad for her she just dropped $ on new tires, brakes and ac work.


----------



## zillard

Didn't someone say that the DS/WS/WAW often becomes a wreck?

wocka wocka.

Am I insensitive? Anyone who reads me should know I am not.


----------



## terrence4159

ok the main question here.........is the pole ok?

when she wrecks she does a good job


----------



## zillard

terrence4159 said:


> ok the main question here.........is the pole ok?


Ha. Totally something my father would say. Love the dry sense of humor. Looking forward to plinkin away with that rifle terrance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## terrence4159

no i am glad she is ok, but me whenever thing get serious i use humor to cover it up.

thanks to obama and his gun scare it is now 7.45 per shot for the big boy gun


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Well it looks like she is fine.
> 
> My brother is still on her facebook. She posted a while ago "wear your seatbelts kids" with the following pic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad she's ok. She's lucky she finally got insurance last week.
> 
> Too bad for her she just dropped $ on new tires, brakes and ac work.


When she said she ran into a pole, she meant she ran into a pole - at speed.

She must have passed out/fell asleep.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> When she said she ran into a pole, she meant she ran into a pole - at speed.
> 
> She must have passed out/fell asleep.


mmm. yup. 

She called to say goodnight to D7... while driving around in some dude's truck. 

Poor guy. 

Guess she wasn't at work.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> mmm. yup.
> 
> She called to say goodnight to D7... while driving around in some dude's truck.
> 
> Poor guy.
> 
> Guess she wasn't at work.


Safe bet.

She'll milk it for all it's worth at work.


----------



## Chuck71

milk it like a dairy farmer


----------



## catcalls

hi Zillard

been reading your thread and I think this thread should be mandatory reading to any spouse dealing with infidelity. It is amazing the way you have emerged from this situation. It must take a lot of guts to look deep inside oneself and be so open to accept ones own faults. not sure i can do it.

meanwhile your ex seems to be floundering. I guess the stronger and more together she sees you, the more inadequate she feels. It is quite disturbing that she can have a crash like that. Don't the police check for driving under the influence of drinks/drugs. She seems to be a danger to herself and other road users. How can she be so flippant about it. I suppose all this vindicates your decision to move, it is probably the best for your daughter. Having a flaky/playful parent for a few hours is fun for the kid but being actively parented by one is not in their best interests.

do you think your ex will be diligent in seeing your D after you have moved towns? your ex comes across as very childlike in some ways, and i do feel sorry for her that she has not matured and seems unable to find contentment.


----------



## doureallycare2

Wow, really? How can you make the WS realize that this is what lies ahead for them. a series of very bad choice and then the wreak they make of their life along with everyone else involved! 

I had court yesterday and I have to say it was one of the saddest days of my life. I posted about it on my tread "So I did it!" But 35 years of marriage taken down to percentages and dollar and cents. But the kicker was him showing up at the house afterwards and the "private deal" he wanted to make.


----------



## ReGroup

You can't make or help them realize it.

They need to experience the consequences of their decision.

Z has done a great job of letting her figure this out - the hard way.

No explaining and most certainly, no enabling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Well it looks like she is fine.
> 
> My brother is still on her facebook. She posted a while ago "wear your seatbelts kids" with the following pic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad she's ok. She's lucky she finally got insurance last week.
> 
> Too bad for her she just dropped $ on new tires, brakes and ac work.


Imagine that without insurance.


----------



## zillard

catcalls said:


> hi Zillard
> 
> been reading your thread and I think this thread should be mandatory reading to any spouse dealing with infidelity. It is amazing the way you have emerged from this situation. It must take a lot of guts to look deep inside oneself and be so open to accept ones own faults. not sure i can do it.


Thank you for the kind words, catcalls. The deepest introspection began after she moved out. She was too much of a distraction while here, and I was too full of anger and self pity to do anything but blame her for everything. 

It is very difficult, frightening, but also extremely liberating to look inward. 



catcalls said:


> meanwhile your ex seems to be floundering. I guess the stronger and more together she sees you, the more inadequate she feels. It is quite disturbing that she can have a crash like that. Don't the police check for driving under the influence of drinks/drugs. She seems to be a danger to herself and other road users. How can she be so flippant about it. I suppose all this vindicates your decision to move, it is probably the best for your daughter. Having a flaky/playful parent for a few hours is fun for the kid but being actively parented by one is not in their best interests.


Oh, she's quite the charmer when she wants to be - with plenty of cleavage to throw around. But I have no idea if she was cited/charged for this. She very well could have been.

She is flippant because she constantly uses sarcasm to distract herself from her feelings of anxiety and fear. 

I told D7 her mother was in a car accident. She said ok and continued with her coloring project. When X didn't call that night to talk to D7, it didn't seem that kiddo noticed at all. When she called last night, D7 cut her short. "Is it ok if I stop now?"



catcalls said:


> do you think your ex will be diligent in seeing your D after you have moved towns? your ex comes across as very childlike in some ways, and i do feel sorry for her that she has not matured and seems unable to find contentment.


She plans to put her share of the house profit into savings and only use for visiting D7. Will she stick to that? I really have no idea. She's been flaky 45 mins away. Out of state? I don't expect consistency. I think it will probably fluctuate. 

And yes. Emotionally she is very much still a child. A shame because she is beautiful, talented, and very intelligent. Her emotions get in the way of all of those though.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Imagine that without insurance.


Oof. 

The bare minimum liability that she likely purchased won't be much better. Otherwise she'd be driving a rental right now instead of some guys truck.


----------



## zillard

X sent me a text with the car pic.

X - She's dead. [insurance co] said you might have to sign some papers since you're still on the title. I'll keep you updated. I'm going in tomorrow to sign some stuff.

Z - That's unfortunate. Just let me know what I need to sign.

X - Unforunate is an understatement. I'm glad I'm not in the hospital or dead. 

Z - I am too.

X - I found the relay (a part I purchased before separation and gave her when she left. She'd been looking for it for some time). It was in the glove box. Didn't find it till I collected my ship at the tow yard yesterday. lol. 

No response to that one necessary.


----------



## zillard

X - The full sized spare came through the backseat. I'm so glad D7 and her seat weren't in the car. 

(fishing again)

Z - Yeah, I am too.

X - I might need you to pick up D7 this weekend also. I don't have a rental yet and I'm driving a truck with no true backseat. 

(expecting without asking for help - violation of one of my boundaries)

Z - Thank you for informing me of your possible need.

(committing to nothing)

X - You're welcome. I should have a rental by the weekend, but I'm not 100% sure.

(no response necessary)


----------



## ReGroup

Lol. Talking to a wall.

She'll hint all night what she wants - I say let her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> Lol. Talking to a wall.
> 
> She'll hint all night what she wants - I say let her.


I can do this allllll night. 

In between my awesome texts/calls with Tiger. I decided to hop on a plane in 2 weeks to go see her - and drop a deposit on a rental.

Z - you have until noon tomorrow to tell me no. otherwise our "no expectations" thing is on hold because I'll be buying a plane ticket and expecting to see your face at the airport on the XXth.

...

T - I have a sitter


----------



## terrence4159

i feel for you i really do Z and at same time count my lucky stars my wife deals with the xw and not me. havent seen mine in over a year and we have kid exchange twice a week


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> I can do this allllll night.
> 
> 
> 
> Z - you have until noon tomorrow to tell me no. otherwise our "no expectations" thing is on hold because I'll be buying a plane ticket and expecting to see your face at the airport on the XXth.
> 
> ...
> 
> T - I have a sitter


This is awesome. This is game. This is what took me 41 years to learn. Nice job.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> This is awesome. This is game. This is what took me 41 years to learn. Nice job.


the "decisive man with a plan" thing works well. (took me 34 yrs - right there with ya)


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> the "decisive man with a plan" thing works well. (took me 34 yrs - right there with ya)


And SO much fun!


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> I can do this allllll night.
> 
> In between my awesome texts/calls with Tiger. I decided to hop on a plane in 2 weeks to go see her - and drop a deposit on a rental.
> 
> Z - you have until noon tomorrow to tell me no. otherwise our "no expectations" thing is on hold because I'll be buying a plane ticket and expecting to see your face at the airport on the XXth.
> 
> ...
> 
> T - I have a sitter


So detaching from toxic W is not bad and rewarding ... ummm.


----------



## K.C.

And no one told me this 6 months ago? wf? 

So er Z, while I'm here, just how long ago do ya reckon you answered the question that is your thread title,?


----------



## zillard

K.C. said:


> And no one told me this 6 months ago? wf?
> 
> So er Z, while I'm here, just how long ago do ya reckon you answered the question that is your thread title,?


December 11th. The day before I filed. 

:banned2:


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> So detaching from toxic W is not bad and *rewarding* ... ummm.


Quite!


----------



## Chuck71

Another date similarity, 12/11 the day I let everything go. Thanks to Group's post. If he sends me a bill, I am so up chit creek


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Quite!


Not going to lie. It hurts, but if you accept it all for what it is. Keep your focus on your kids and yourself. You can find a state of peace quite easily. Other perks, just tend to happen.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Not going to lie. It hurts, but if you accept it all for what it is. Keep your focus on your kids and yourself. You can find a state of peace quite easily. *Other perks, just tend to happen.*


Yes, people, situations, perks seem to simply present themselves. And if you are in a good spot, you can recognize them for what they are. 

If you are content and living in the present you can accept them and really enjoy the moment. Whether it be meeting a new friend, reconnecting with someone, a conversation with a stranger, or simply a smile exchanged with a clerk.


----------



## doureallycare2

hmm I must not have reached that spot yet, cause Im not seeing any perks...


----------



## hope4family

doureallycare2 said:


> hmm I must not have reached that spot yet, cause Im not seeing any perks...


Your Milage May Very. 

When my ex-wife left me with my child in September. I went out sparingly. Mostly by myself, and spent a lot of nights working on myself. Lots of pushups. 

I cried a lot too. More then she deserved. 

But, I never crawled into a bottle, tried to see the positives, let those who wanted to comfort me comfort me. Of course I was also posting here. I recognized that every moment was what I make of it. My awareness went up, and I noticed that my smile, made others smile wider.

In January, I was ready to enter a steady social scene again. I am glad I waited, I was still hurt, but it wen't overwhelmingly well. Lots of work on me still to do.

The future is still bright. Son and I need shades.


----------



## zillard

Geometric study of an ornate window.

There is order and beauty all around us, if we have the right perspective.


----------



## zillard

Still fishing. It didn't work yesterday. So today let's make it about D7. 

X - One of grammas neighbors gave me some clothes for D7. There are a couple of hoodies, and a dress thats too warm to wear here. I'll send them home with her this weekend if you want. I figured the hoodies would be useful soon. 

Note it seems she isn't planning on dropping off D7, even though I did not agree to pick her up. 

Plus, she already told me all about the clothes. 

Z - D7 is excited about the clothes.


----------



## GutPunch

I do admit this new Z is way more fun and attractive.

Do you blame her Z?


----------



## GutPunch

She still cannot fathom that you picked up your bat and ball and went and found a new game.


----------



## zillard

X - Can I please have the houseplants when you guys leave?

Z - Sure. They are here when you want them.


----------



## GutPunch

BTW...I just read about the flowers and being locked out and I barfed a little. I am glad you buried that sad sap.


----------



## zillard

X- Can you please bring the plants when you drop D7 off? I have no idea what ill be driving this weekend or if ill have space for them.

(She started to get it. Ask nicely)

X - I opted for everything but rental coverage when I insured the car. lol.

Z - Yes.

(The less I have to move the better. Ignore second text.)


----------



## zillard

GutPunch said:


> BTW...I just read about the flowers and being locked out and I barfed a little. I am glad you buried that sad sap.


oh yes!

And look. Now instead of:

Fck You
You're making it easier for me to hate you
You're being a d!ck
Get the hell out!
etc.

I'm getting please and thank you.


----------



## ReGroup

Z, you are going to become initiated as a TAM Titan by the time you move.

Good Lord.

The less you give... the more she reaches out.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> oh yes!
> 
> And look. Now instead of:
> 
> Fck You
> You're making it easier for me to hate you
> You're being a d!ck
> Get the hell out!
> etc.
> 
> I'm getting please and thank you.


It's nice. Isn't it? 

My ex and I co parent very well right meow. Largely in part because I got my crap together and held my boundaries. But I also give her the legit credit she deserves, as she's doing a lot better with the kids and interacting with me.


----------



## zillard

And here we used to think walking on eggshells would make our lives easier. 

pppfffftt.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> And here we used to think walking on eggshells would make our lives easier.
> 
> pppfffftt.


Letting go of the past was the key for me, in doing so I was able to not make things personal.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Letting go of the past was the key for me, in doing so I was able to not make things personal.


Yes, that was an incredibly important step for me too. 

Learning to live in the present, stop picking apart the past, and let go of any expectations and fear of what the future will bring.

For me, I could not do that until I fully owned my faults. Accepted that at times I am an @ss. Really looked at myself from above and saw that the breakdown of the M was really not all her fault. 

Yes, it came to a head with her infidelity and dishonesty. That is 100% on her. But I used that to ignore myself. To continue hiding. To stay on denial. 

Only after I apologized with no string attached and no expectations was I able to also let her crap go. To fully empathize and see that despite her incredibly selfish actions I am also imperfect. How can I ever expect forgiveness from anyone if I am unwilling to forgive myself? 

By owning my own mess I was able to really see that her mess is her own and not my responsibility. So why try to fix it? Why jump to help when my assistance is neither asked for nor appreciated? 

It set me free. It gave me back my own power. I allowed myself to be me. 

Focusing on my wants, needs and desires is not selfish! Regardless of how anyone else sees it. It is love. And due to that I am in a better place to share that love. With no covert contracts. Just because I want to!

others appreciate that. And if they don't? F'em.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doureallycare2

zillard said:


> Yes, that was an incredibly important step for me too.
> 
> Learning to live in the present, stop picking apart the past, and let go of any expectations and fear of what the future will bring.
> 
> For me, I could not do that until I fully owned my faults. Accepted that at times I am an @ss. Really looked at myself from above and saw that the breakdown of the M was really not all her fault.
> 
> Yes, it came to a head with her infidelity and dishonesty. That is 100% on her. But I used that to ignore myself. To continue hiding. To stay on denial.
> 
> Only after I apologized with no string attached and no expectations was I able to also let her crap go. To fully empathize and see that despite her incredibly selfish actions I am also imperfect. How can I ever expect forgiveness from anyone if I am unwilling to forgive myself?
> 
> By owning my own mess I was able to really see that her mess is her own and not my responsibility. So why try to fix it? Why jump to help when my assistance is neither asked for nor appreciated?
> 
> It set me free. It gave me back my own power. I allowed myself to be me.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get that I really do Zillard, Ihave been even able to practice it. When my stbxh and I were seperated during his last affair and talking about getting back to gether again. all this was talked about. I was reading every and all self help books I could get my hands on, plus my therepy. I came to a point that although reconizing his sexual addiction and the harm it had caused the marriage I had to also take a long hard look at myself. I have always tried to be the best wife, mother. Im not perfect by a long shot but I was always trying. maybe too much. I apoligized to my husband for those areas i could have met his needs more or even just stood on my feet more. I forgave him, I put all the past and all those other affairs behind me and I agreed to take him back with a new slate. I promised no checking on him, no cell phone searches etc. it was a new marriage. I didnt do this for his sake, I did it for mine and his sake, to hopefully give our marriage a chance and for me to be able to survive with him. to be whole. But I asked him for a solumn vow, a promice that he would never do this to me again. If he felt that he was slipping into old habbits he needed to leave. no secret affair, no lies... admit the addiction and say that you slipped. of course we know he didnt live up to that. So I had to live up to my word and say it was over....I thought it would be so much easier than it is.... i want, I need to let it go.. the pain, the hurt, i need to let him go. 

I had an A-Ha moment earlier tonight. I was talking with my sister and i said to her my life is not just over as I know it, I feel like it is over. she said do you mean that? I thought for a second and I said I believe that in all the crap he did to me and how bad emotionally and physically it was for me at times. The best time of my life is behind me. Nothing in my future will ever be better that my happy times I had in the past with my stbxh. And I do believe this... how sad is that..... This was the first time I realized i felt this way and the first time I vocalized it, saying it again does not make me feel better.. more like Im and idiot,


----------



## zillard

doureallycare2 said:


> I get that I really do Zillard, Ihave been even able to practice it. When my stbxh and I were seperated during his last affair and talking about getting back to gether again. all this was talked about. I was reading every and all self help books I could get my hands on, plus my therepy. I came to a point that although reconizing his sexual addiction and the harm it had caused the marriage I had to also take a long hard look at myself. I have always tried to be the best wife, mother. Im not perfect by a long shot but I was always trying. maybe too much. I apoligized to my husband for those areas i could have met his needs more or even just stood on my feet more. I forgave him, I put all the past and all those other affairs behind me and I agreed to take him back with a new slate. I promised no checking on him, no cell phone searches etc. it was a new marriage. I didnt do this for his sake, I did it for mine and his sake, to hopefully give our marriage a chance and for me to be able to survive with him. to be whole. But I asked him for a solumn vow, a promice that he would never do this to me again. If he felt that he was slipping into old habbits he needed to leave. no secret affair, no lies... admit the addiction and say that you slipped. of course we know he didnt live up to that. So I had to live up to my word and say it was over....I thought it would be so much easier than it is.... i want, I need to let it go.. the pain, the hurt, i need to let him go.
> 
> I had an A-Ha moment earlier tonight. I was talking with my sister and i said to her my life is not just over as I know it, I feel like it is over. she said do you mean that? I thought for a second and I said I believe that in all the crap he did to me and how bad emotionally and physically it was for me at times. The best time of my life is behind me. Nothing in my future will ever be better that my happy times I had in the past with my stbxh. And I do believe this... how sad is that..... This was the first time I realized i felt this way and the first time I vocalized it, saying it again does not make me feel better.. more like Im and idiot,


Oh DURC... don't do that to yourself. 

The best times in your life are only behind you if that is what you choose! 

Even though I have chosen to let go and work on forgiving my X (a process, not a light switch), I would never take her back with no strings. Absolutely not. 

I would demand transparency, access to everything, and a commitment from her to avoid situations that trigger me and made her affair likely. And there would be much follow up on my part to ensure those things happened and kept happening. 

Because she has proven herself... to be unfaithful. 

BUT.. I would expect the same type of requirements for myself to prove that I can overcome my damaging behavior patterns.

Without those... it's doomed to fail. Again.

But most of that is irrelevant as I really don't see that happening. I'm pretty sure I don't want it anymore. 

In just a few months I've seen better possibilities.


----------



## Chuck71

DYRC Times are what you make of them. I remember like yesterday how I 'just knew' I would never love again after my first love left. Granted I was 19 LOL...

You allow yourself to be treated the way others treat you. I have a pot of homemade chili which says you deserve a lot more than you were expecting. I can not control who I fall in love with (although my mom says yes you can he he) but I can how they treat me. After fifteen plus years...... I walked away without lifting a finger to save it. I left a non negotiable on the table and never brought it up again.

It was a great ride, more good times than bad. But the princess I see no longer, more like the Loch Ness monster. It's sad in some ways and hard to wrap your brain around how it went from "Graceland" to "Chit Row." In my situation now, I have something I felt I had not had with her in a number of years......hope for the future.


----------



## Northern Monkey

I felt like my life was over for months. That the only reason to stick around was for my kids.

You know what though. Right now I am happier than I have been in many years.

You just have to give yourself permission to be happy.


----------



## doureallycare2

Thanks guys I do "know" all that, I have felt better about the situation before and not so negative.. I don’t know if it’s just because of court and the finality of it. or all the contact with him lately. I have to wrap my head around it and get out of this funk. I’m not even looking forward to leaving to see my son and his family tomorrow, normally I would be hoping with joy. 

I get inspiration and encouragement from reading how others have gotten to the point of moving on. Thank you for sharing with me and hopefully I will have a better outlook to report soon.


----------



## Northern Monkey

I hope so too, you have been a great encouragement yourself. You deserve to be happy.

Its ok knowing these things but I find sometimes a reminder is needed for to believe it!


----------



## zillard

Ha. Just heard one of my brothers removed X from his facebook. Said he was tired of seeing her post about some boyfriend and being disrespectful and "not nice" to me. 

smh.


----------



## ReGroup

Z, she's blasting you on FB?

Let me guess... she's "happiernow" as well?

Lol.

As Chucky would say: Facade 101


----------



## zillard

It's really quite funny. 

I have no idea what she is saying, and don't care. The people that know me see through it. The people that don't, don't matter. 

After T put our pics up and X wrecked, she made it a point twice to tell me she was driving a dude's truck. Then all the fishing the last couple days. Now this. 

Transparent.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Hey, Z, is it okay for me to start hating your X, just like I do Gutpunches and ReGroup and SoCa and A12....


----------



## zillard

Bullwinkle said:


> Hey, Z, is it okay for me to start hating your X, just like I do Gutpunches and ReGroup and SoCa and A12....


Just be you, dude. I accept whatever comes with that. 

I just hope her new beau has good insurance.


----------



## zillard

Ha. X called to say goodnight to D7... on speaker phone as usual.

She mentioned dude's truck again. 

(Really. How is that relevant to D? lol.)

Then she asked D7 to give phone to me so we could talk. Told me how much her insurance paid out for her car. She's getting all her stuff squared away, getting a rental this weekend, etc.

Z - Ok. 

She told me again about the tire going through the back seat and how glad she is daughter and seat weren't in it. 

Z - Ok. 

X - Ok that's all. I'm going to go eat and go back to work. Bye!

smh.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Damn, Z, between you and ReGroup, you need to go on Dr. Phil. Or write a book entitled, "Doormats for Dummies".


----------



## zillard

That's funny. Not too long ago in a joint session she said she gets pissed when she gets all emotional with me I "turn into dr phil". Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> It's really quite funny.
> 
> I have no idea what she is saying, and don't care.


Heh... Speaking of Facebook, I just noticed... Now that AXW defriended me on Facebook, I can see everything she was trying to hide from me, because I'm no longer on her "restricted" list.

The funny thing is, there isn't anything there that was ever really worth hiding.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> Heh... Speaking of Facebook, I just noticed... Now that AXW defriended me on Facebook, I can see everything she was trying to hide from me, because I'm no longer on her "restricted" list.
> 
> The funny thing is, there isn't anything there that was ever really worth hiding.


Haha. She must not have blocked you. That was after the HepC thing so she was likely doing it more out of spite than to hide anything.

Last weekend X hinted that she wanted me back on her FB. "You can show D7 the pics of her when she was little on my facebook."

No need. I have them all. And more.


----------



## Ceegee

Z - Every time I here that Icona Pop song "I Love It" I think of your ex. 

I got this feeling on the summer day when you were gone.
I crashed my car into the bridge. I watched, I let it burn.
I threw your sh1t into a bag and pushed it down the stairs.
I crashed my car into the bridge.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Z - Every time I here that Icona Pop song "I Love It" I think of your ex.
> 
> I got this feeling on the summer day when you were gone.
> I crashed my car into the bridge. I watched, I let it burn.
> I threw your sh1t into a bag and pushed it down the stairs.
> I crashed my car into the bridge.


hahaha. 

When I told my mother about her crash, and how it was the same day Tiger put up pics of us together, she asked "do you think she did it on purpose?"


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Haha. She must not have blocked you. That was after the HepC thing so she was likely doing it more out of spite than to hide anything.


Oh, definitely, but I think it would have happened eventually anyway. She's expunging all of our history together... Trying to erase me out of her life and replace me with posOM. She also deleted all the photos that had me in them, for example, and has made a more public display of the photos that feature her and him.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> Oh, definitely, but I think it would have happened eventually anyway. She's expunging all of our history together... Trying to erase me out of her life and replace me with posOM. She also deleted all the photos that had me in them, for example, and has made a more public display of the photos that feature her and him.


I removed photos of my X. As soon as she decided to move out. 

Then I blocked her. 

I did post photos of my run with T. No captions or relationship status change though. Just fun pics of a good time. Most of my friends know her and that we've been friends since way before X. 

Now X is apparently making a point of talking about a boyfriend plus negative things about me. 

Funny how as soon as she crashed... who did she call?


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> I removed photos of my X. As soon as she decided to move out.
> 
> Then I blocked her.
> 
> I did post photos of my run with T. No captions or relationship status change though. Just fun pics of a good time. Most of my friends know her and that we've been friends since way before X.
> 
> Now X is apparently making a point of talking about a boyfriend plus negative things about me.
> 
> Funny how as soon as she crashed... who did she call?


New potential rescuer.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> New potential rescuer.


Only after she didn't get what she wanted from me. 

Before we separated she got a flat. She called posOM and an ex before me. 

This wreck... I got a call immediately.


----------



## 06Daddio08

To think, my ex had pretty bad car trouble a month or so ago and I didn't even hear about it until we had breakfast this morning.

Really starting to appreciate her ability to keep her problems to herself and deal with them.


----------



## zillard

Tiger - she buys wrecked motorcycles, fixes them, rides them for a season, then sells them. 

Doubt she needs help with a flat.


----------



## terrence4159

yeah and you were rude and never let us know how the pole faired 

i lost sleep over that


----------



## zillard

terrence4159 said:


> yeah and you were rude and never let us know how the pole faired
> 
> i lost sleep over that


I'm sure the pole is doing great. If it wasn't I would've heard all about the lawsuit from the city.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> To think, my ex had pretty bad car trouble a month or so ago and I didn't even hear about it until we had breakfast this morning.
> 
> Really starting to appreciate her ability to keep her problems to herself and deal with them.


That is very nice! From what you write it seems she is in a much better place than mine. Kudos to her! Really.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Wise words from a heavy metal band:

Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity.
Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
Desperate to control all and everything.
Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen.

Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Justify denials and grip 'em to the lonesome end.
Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatum prison cell.

Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again.

Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Justify denials and grip 'em to the lonesome end.
Saturn ascends, comes round again.
Saturn ascends, the one, the ten. Ignorant to the damage done.

Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity.
Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
Desperate to control all and everything.
Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen.

Wear your grudge like a crown. Desperate to control.
Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper.

Defining, confining, controlling, and we're sinking deeper.

Saturn comes back around to show you everything
Let's you choose what you will not see and then
Drags you down like a stone or lifts you up again
Spits you out like a child, light and innocent.

Saturn comes back around. Lifts you up like a child or
Drags you down like a stone
To consume you till you choose to let this go.

Give away the stone. Let the oceans take and
Transmutate this cold and fated anchor.
Give away the stone. Let the waters kiss and
Transmutate these leaden grudges into gold.

*Let go.*


----------



## Chuck71

I am driving new BFs truck!


I am driving new BFs truck!

Don't be late for class girl....

next week you get to wear his steel toed boots!


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> I am driving new BFs truck!
> 
> 
> I am driving new BFs truck!
> 
> Don't be late for class girl....
> 
> next week you get to wear his steel toed boots!


I'm not 100% sure, but it did sound like she said his name was Ringo. 

:rofl:


----------



## zillard

Nothing like a bubble shower to wash away what was.


----------



## Chuck71

Ringo? for real? LOL

everybody sing along 

We all Live in a Yellow Submarine


----------



## Chuck71

my old high school 'trouble buddy' had a bubbles impersonation.

it was ultra classic ...... think flip wilson as geraldine

LOL


----------



## terrence4159

im kinda disturbed by that photo......now if it was just women in bubbles im down for that.


great now Z in bubbles burned into my retinas


----------



## zillard

Dropped off D7 at X's. 

D walked in and X said hi to her. I walked in carrying Ds bag. 

X- hey babe! Can I borrow Ds car seat? I don't think the other will fit in the rental I'm getting. Oh, I just called you "babe". 

Z- yes. I'll get it.

When I brought it in she went into details of her wreck. Apparently she clipped a car in front of her then went into a wall and hit the pole. 

X- I have no idea what happened!

Z- did you fall asleep?

X- no! I was on my way to work. I don't know what happened. 

She then showed me the bruise across her chest from the seatbelt. Cuts on her hand and up her arm where they had to pull glass out. Told me thought she had broken ribs but didn't. 

Z- well I'm glad you're ok. (Then back to focus on D) 

X- me too! I could have died. The insurance paid me xxx for the car. 

Z- yeah, you told me. 

Turned back to say bye to D. She mentioned dude's truck again. I left.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Oh, I just called you "babe".


That'll do, Z... That'll do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

How long have you guys been separated for again?


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> How long have you guys been separated for again?


DDay and in-house separation right before Halloween. I filed and she moved out right before Xmas.


----------



## zillard

About an hour later I got a call from X. I was enjoying lunch and converstion with a stranger so I let it go to voicemail. 

She left a message asking about D7 feeling sick. Said she has been talking about feeling quesy and wanting to cry. 

I had already told X about D feeling ill this morning. I just called back and left a message. Reiterated that it was just this morning and she's been great all week. 

She called back shortly after. Asked the same questions as in the vm. I gave the same answer. She thanked me for letting her use the carseat and again mentioned dudes truck.

X- ok, well thank you for calling me back. 

Z- you're welcome. Bye. 

In other news.. Tiger has been online browsing for real estate for me, sending me listings of cute houses she has found. Key- after she asked me if I was ok with her doing so. 

T- well I don't want to bother you. 

Z- you don't bother me. Quite the opposite. If you see anything send it on over babe. 

T- great  I will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

Oh, you just called her babe.


----------



## Ceegee

Has she given any indication that she knows there's something between you and T? Anything come of the FB pics?


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Oh, you just called her babe.


Good? Bad? Still learning. She seemed to eat it up. 

T- I changed my mind. This is going to be a long 4 weeks. You can't say all that stuff. You're killing me here. 

Z- I didn't say anything about reigning myself in. Deal with it. 

T- hahaha. Fair enough. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Good? Bad? Still learning. She seemed to eat it up.
> 
> T- I changed my mind. This is going to be a long 4 weeks. You can't say all that stuff. You're killing me here.
> 
> Z- I didn't say anything about reigning myself in. Deal with it.
> 
> T- hahaha. Fair enough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's awesome because you felt it and said it with confidence. That's why she ate it up. It's game. You're a man, you do and say what you dang well please.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Has she given any indication that she knows there's something between you and T? Anything come of the FB pics?


X hasn't said boo about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

T- you're a ****! But you are sweet. And I LOVE that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

Ceegee said:


> Oh, you just called her babe.


Lol...X who?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

She sounds like great girl, Z. Does she challenge you?


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> She sounds like great girl, Z. Does she challenge you?


In some ways yes, some no. 

She is more physically fit than me. More active. Once I started running she encouraged me to sign up for the 5k. Yeah, I know a 5k isn't much but was a step for me having not run since track in high school. 

She eats healthier than I do. Is very conscious about it. She was recently working at a yoga studio but got poached for a corporate gig cooking vegan lunches and running a juice bar for the employees. Even though she's never worked as a chef she jumped at the chance and is stoked about it. 

She is devoted to her daughter. Her previous gig she had to commute a ways, so she did so for some time but save up all her money so she could be a SAHM for at least half a year while she looked for something local. And she budgets herself well. Gives herself a "payday". After that payday she won't withdraw anything else. 

She is well read. Would rather watch documentaries than movies. She has spoken about books that I am just barely learning about here on TAM. 

She is ahead of me with alcohol. Has cutoff her boozer and other toxic friends. Has no desire to keep fair weather friends in her life. This is a step I am starting. 

She has reconnected with her parents in a great way after distancing herself for some time. Something I can relate to (mainly due to religion on both our parts) but she is ahead of me there also. 

10+ years ago we were in the same spot. Not a good one. Party life. Now, we are very even. I have taken the lunge into IC in a way that she has not. Yet before discussing mine with her she expressed a desire to do so. She has an incredible passion for self improvement and is not satisfied with being stagnant, even though she has progressed so far over the years. 

She does challenge me. Asks me the tough questions. Wants to know if I plan to continue IC after I relocate. Asks about my stance on R with X. How I feel about XYZ. 

I dig.


----------



## zillard

X called again. Let it go to vm. 

Asked again about D7s breakfast and if she has been sick lately. We've been over this multiple times today. She said D7 has no appetite and is claiming to have upset stomach. 

I didn't call back. Sent a text instead. Told her again exactly what D had for bkfst and that she ate fresh food last night. 

Gee, I wonder if being taken out to get a rental car after discussing a car wreck has anything to do with it. Who dropped them off to get the new rental? Dude with his truck?

Smh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

X- She puked up Lipton chicken noodle and keeps declaring that she doesn't feel well. No fever. No other symptoms.

Z - Likely stress.

X - That's what I'm thinking.

X - Sorry these texts ate "after hours", but I'm quite literally at the end of my rope right now. 

X - I'm *thisclose* to flipping my ****.

Z - Sorry you feel that way. 

(btw... it's not a violation of my boundary until after midnight. She still has 3 hours. But really, what other response is necessary here?).


----------



## zillard

D. E. A. L. W. I. T. H. I. T.

Like I do every other night of the week.


----------



## Chuck71

She is desperate to get your attention. 

Jealousy does not work

D does not work

Rescue me does not work

Flashing breasts next ploy???


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Flashing breasts next ploy???


She basically already tried that showing off the seatbelt bruise.


----------



## zillard

I mean... bruises are hot. Right?


----------



## zillard

I keep getting emails from the airline. "your trip is right around the corner" (for my upcoming night w/Tiger)

Like I need a reminder...


----------



## whitehawk

zillard said:


> Good? Bad? Still learning. She seemed to eat it up.
> 
> T- I changed my mind. This is going to be a long 4 weeks. You can't say all that stuff. You're killing me here.
> 
> Z- I didn't say anything about reigning myself in. Deal with it.
> 
> T- hahaha. Fair enough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Ooo I love it when they eat it up. 

How you doin z , still powering along by the look of it . All these women of yours is killing me.
Me , if it's gonna be this way I'm still a bit stuck , like a lot stuck , on my beach house chick .
Can't get her outa of my head . She's just a touch crazy - at times . But hey she's a real nice looking crazy though.
All the girls here said better stay away from that one , lifes cruel.


----------



## Ceegee

Sorry, Z, I'm no Titan. But it seems you're right, she just wants the attention from her rescuer. Ignore it. If it's truly bad let her take D to emergency care. What does she expect you to do?


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Sorry, Z, I'm no Titan. But it seems you're right, she just wants the attention from her rescuer. Ignore it. If it's truly bad let her take D to emergency care. What does she expect you to do?


Fix. 

Offer sympathy.

Be a good little pillow. Soft and comfortable.

Nope. She took all the pillows with her when she moved out. I bought new ones. For new heads. Redheads.

X works in healthcare. She's more than capable. Anytime anyone had an ailment she was the first to offer a solution... and dispel any that I suggested. She doesn't need my help. She wants my attention.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Fix.
> 
> Offer sympathy.
> 
> Be a good little pillow. Soft and comfortable.
> 
> Nope. She took all the pillows with her when she moved out. I bought new ones. For new heads. Redheads.
> 
> X works in healthcare. She's more than capable. Anytime anyone had an ailment she was the first to offer a solution... and dispel any that I suggested. She doesn't need my help. She wants my attention.


So all you can do is ignore.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Z -

Great line about her taking all the pillows with her and you replacing them with one for a redhead. I gotta find a way to use it.


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> She doesn't need my help. She wants my attention.


What would happen if you told her that?


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> What would happen if you told her that?


Anger.

Anytime I tell her how she feels/thinks.


----------



## zillard

X - Is it ok with you if I bring D7 back a little early tonight? I have to return the truck I've been borrowing this evening.

(again with the truck. smh)

Z - What time?

X - 5-ish?

Z - I'm ok with 5.


----------



## ReGroup

Ask me about the f'n truck Z!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> Anger.
> 
> Anytime I tell her how she feels/thinks.


Well, I kind of meant in terms of saying 'Look, I know you don't need to be asking me this stuff - you're just trying to keep me involved. The thing is, I've moved on. So you need to, too. I'm going to stop answering you and will only work through cozi.com.'


----------



## zillard

I like that. Except for "so you need to, too". 

I refrain from telling her about her needs.


----------



## zillard

"I don't feel that these kinds of exchanges about D7 are necessary because I'm confident in your abilities. Please use cozi.com for updates instead"

Sent.


----------



## zillard

Although I disgreed with your wording, I appreciate the perspective and feedback, Turnera!

I would not have sent the message otherwise. 

Thank you.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> I like that. Except for "so you need to, too".
> 
> I refrain from telling her about her needs.


She would only take that as you controlling her.


----------



## turnera

zillard said:


> Although I disgreed with your wording, I appreciate the perspective and feedback, Turnera!
> 
> I would not have sent the message otherwise.
> 
> Thank you.


 We all need a little nudge now and then.


----------



## terrence4159

hey Z did you know your x was using a "friends" truck? dont know if you knew that


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> We all need a little nudge now and then.


She didn't respond. But dropped off D7 and was nicer than ever.


----------



## zillard

Told T that I found an apartment for the summer. Taking over someone's lease for 3 months while I look for a place to buy. 3 bdrm apt with pool and hot tub.

T - Cool  sounds like fun to me.

Z - You can't come tho. Just [her daughter] 

T - Lol. Rude!

Z - Maybe if you're nice...

T - I'll be nice. I'm always nice 

Z - We'll see about that. So far though.. very nice!

T - Well I'm glad you think so. I'm a peach 99.9% of the time 

Z - Mmmm. How'd you know that I love peaches!?

T - Haha, you gave it away


----------



## Northern Monkey

Sounding good Z. Pretty much full steam ahead for the move now then?


----------



## Bullwinkle

Sounds really positive, Z. Good on you, bud.


----------



## zillard

I'm getting real excited about the move. Three weeks away!

House sale is squared away, minus closing. 
New place is secured. 
Plane tickets purchased for my lil' brothers to come help.
Boxes stacked 5ft high in my garage.
New camping gear ready for use. 

*rubbing hands together*

Tom Waits - Going Out West - YouTube


----------



## Bullwinkle

You're all over it, Z.


----------



## doureallycare2

Bullwinkle said:


> Hey, Z, is it okay for me to start hating your X, just like I do Gutpunches and ReGroup and SoCa and A12....


so u like mine?.. dam, he charms everyone..


----------



## doureallycare2

Z, so glad to see things moving forward for you and how positive you are. Love hearing the good things.


----------



## zillard

I used to worry so much about what women thought. What should I say? What if it's the wrong thing? Too much over thinking. Paralysis of analysis. Fumble, mumble, etc. It usually got me nowhere. And not just with women, but in life. It led to indecision which shows a lack of confidence. 

It's so much more enjoyable just to have fun! 

I sent T the link to a song I thought she'd like. She couldn't get it to work on her phone. 

Z - am I gonna have to make you a mixed tape? 8-track? lol

T - Yes! I want a mixed tape 

Z - I refuse to make you a cassette tape. mostly because I can't. but you've got some listenin to do...

T - I'd settle for a cd. That's still old school isn't it?

Z - you'll get what I give ya

T - lol

T - Hey... 

T - Did I mention I miss you today? I don't think I have... So, now you know. Counting down the days 

Z - Ha. Don't think you did. But I knew...

T - Good


----------



## Northern Monkey

Funny how being yourself and to hell with it works. You have been an inspiration for me Z but my conversations have been similar, though a little softer cos I'm still a big mushy mess lol.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Good to see you so positive, Z. 

And NM, where you been, mate?


----------



## Northern Monkey

Been about, ya know trees an bananas. Reading my usual threads but busy. There is an update in that group.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Does she know about TAM and you posting conversations between you two? I've had a few conversations with women and I thought about posting it, then I felt it may violate there right to privacy.

By no means is this a judgment on your updates, curious is all.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Does she know about TAM and you posting conversations between you two? I've had a few conversations with women and I thought about posting it, then I felt it may violate there right to privacy.
> 
> By no means is this a judgment on your updates, curious is all.


You're a good man, Daddio. 

She knows I am involved in a online support group, and encourages my participation. She knows I've spoken about her with others, but not about TAM or posting conversations specifically. 

I didn't take it as judgement, but it does have me thinking now. I wouldn't question posting in an anonymous place. But I do have a very large thread with some identifying info.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> You're a good man, Daddio.
> 
> She knows I am involved in a online support group, and encourages my participation. She knows I've spoken about her with others, but not about TAM or posting conversations specifically.
> 
> I didn't take it as judgement, but it does have me thinking now. I wouldn't question posting in an anonymous place. But I do have a very large thread with some identifying info.


I would strongly discourage you deleting this thread.

It's one of the all-time best on this board.

If you have to edit a few posts, do it.

Seriously, this is great stuff.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> I would strongly discourage you deleting this thread.
> 
> It's one of the all-time best on this board.
> 
> If you have to edit a few posts, do it.
> 
> Seriously, this is great stuff.


Wasn't even considering deleting the thread. Light editing at the most. 

I do think many of my social interactions since D can be helpful to recovering nice guys. Mostly as they are experiences that are quite different from those in my nice guy past.


----------



## GutPunch

This is an anonymous board. You could be my next door neighbor for all I know. There is no harm as long as identities are secret.


----------



## Lifescript

Yes, don't delete. Your progress from Dday to now has been beautifully educational.


----------



## hope4family

What is she going to do? Get online and post whatever her side of the story is? 

It could be a very ugly side i'm sure. Just like everyone elses here. But whatever. You are divorced. Besides, that would be nothing but funny if that happened to me. 

It's all in the past now. Dead & gone.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> What is she going to do? Get online and post whatever her side of the story is?
> 
> It could be a very ugly side i'm sure. Just like everyone elses here. But whatever. You are divorced. Besides, that would be nothing but funny if that happened to me.
> 
> It's all in the past now. Dead & gone.


Oh I'm not thinking about X. This is about Tiger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

My favorite thread.

Started out with devestation... and quickly turning out to be a success story.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Oh I'm not thinking about X. This is about Tiger.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you saying she has dirt on you? 

Naked pictures?

Overweight pictures?

An insight to your emotional feelings?

Or just a really nice strip?


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Are you saying she has dirt on you?
> 
> Naked pictures?
> 
> Overweight pictures?
> 
> An insight to your emotional feelings?
> 
> Or just a really nice strip?


No, just thinking about Daddio's good question whether posting our convos here respects her privacy or not. 

Unrelated to this... I recently found out she does have some dirt on me. A home video from over a decade ago. And she loves teasing with me with that fact.


----------



## 06Daddio08

My only concern was about the privacy of Tiger and if she would be okay with personal conversations being explained word for word. I don't feel there is anything invasive about saying "we hit the park, had an amazing time and I love the fact she's so lively and open" etc.

Also had a good chuckle at how the thread deleting came up.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Oh I'm not thinking about X. This is about Tiger.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's what I figured


----------



## Chuck71

Z's thread covers almost every aspect of a DDay, roller coaster, D final, post D ....... I'm sure BW's is more exciting but I can't catch up on his thread. I'm waiting for a cliff notes recap on BWs.


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> Z's thread covers almost every aspect of a DDay, roller coaster, D final, post D ....... I'm sure BW's is more exciting but I can't catch up on his thread. I'm waiting for a cliff notes recap on BWs.


Z's thread is a "how to" manual for male personal growth.

BW's thread is likely ready for syndication.


----------



## zillard

Wow. What great stuff to read, guys. 

You sure know how to make a girl blush.


----------



## zillard

Um, this isn't easy. 

Turns out I'm now somewhat of a posOM. Ug. 

One of my weekend adventures turned out to be less than ideal. Please do your due diligence, fellas.


----------



## zillard

Now my thread covers a much broader spectrum. Unfortunately.


----------



## Chuck71

I'm waiting for the music section

Top 100 songs of 1988 for second week of May


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Now my thread covers a much broader spectrum. Unfortunately.


Are you saying you met up with a married woman?


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Are you saying you met up with a married woman?


Engaged.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Engaged.


Ain't that a b!tch?


----------



## zillard

Yes it is. 

I feel bad because of it. Tie back to script there was no full nudity but does it make it better? No. 

I don't know her last name. Cannot warn the dude. Cannot take it back. But I can and have cutoff all contact. Nothing further on my end. What else can I do? 

And no. Was not tiger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bullwinkle

Hey, Z, SHYT happens. Imagine her fiancée. We need to reserve a spot on TAM for this poor SOB now.


----------



## zillard

Bullwinkle said:


> Hey, Z, SHYT happens. Imagine her fiancée. We need to reserve a spot on TAM for this poor SOB now.


I AM imagining her fiancée. That's the problem.


----------



## Bullwinkle

It doesn't portend well for him, does it? It coulda been worse, she might have been actually married, but I get your discomfort.


----------



## zillard

Well yeah. Last thing I wanna be is the douchenozzle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bullwinkle

I understand. 

And I like the expression douche nozzle very much.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Were you not informed? How'd you find out?


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Um, this isn't easy.
> 
> Turns out I'm now somewhat of a posOM. Ug.


Anyone with any sort of game faces this now and then.

You cannot force others to be completely honest.

But, you pull the plug when it's uncovered - pronto.


----------



## Lifescript

Z, 

Sh1t happens man. You didn't know what the time so don't feel bad about it. As for the fiancé if he's willing to marry her he better do some investigating. Guys need to stop being naive. Girls cheat just as much. A lot cheating goes on right before marriage.


----------



## Conrad

Bullwinkle said:


> It doesn't portend well for him, does it? It coulda been worse, she might have been actually married, but I get your discomfort.


He needs to run away.

Z would be doing him a favor by exposing her activities.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> I AM imagining her fiancée. That's the problem.


But it's not YOUR problem. Feel empathy for the other guy but don't feel guilty. As a very wise person said just the other day, "guilt is a worthless emotion".


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Were you not informed? How'd you find out?


I ran with what I wanted to believe at the time. Had I been at 50,000 ft I would have seen more. 

3rd party said something later. I immediately responded "great, I just ruined her life". 

3 - "NO, she knows what she's doing"


----------



## 06Daddio08

You went with what you were told, it's on her. Cut ties and move on.


----------



## Northern Monkey

Come on Z you know better than that. She ruins her own life. All you can do is immediately go NC.

Don't be a little issue owning biatch lol, you ruin your rep!


----------



## zillard

Northern Monkey said:


> Don't be a little issue owning biatch


I try not to be. But wow - if something can trigger me... that sure is it. 

Had a hard time sleeping more than once thinking about it. The last thing I want to be is a posOM. 

Definitely NC. 

Poor guy.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> I
> 
> 3 - "NO, she knows what she's doing"


With a wing woman like that its obvious she runs with a toxic crowd. We can only hope he'll figure it out soon enough.


----------



## zillard

In other news:

I previously talked with X about taking D7 down to see the bubbles at the Bubble Run event today. 

She told me it would be ok to drop of D7 late for that. 

D7 has been sick though. Previously updated the online journal about it so X can be aware. Last night D7 wasn't doing any better so I sent X a text. 

Z - May not take her to see the bubbles tomorrow. Depending on how she feels in the morning. Can we plan on normal time unless I tell you different by 10am?

X - What bubbles?

Z - The bubble run in phx. The other weekend you said it would be ok to drop her off a little late if I took her to see them. Which I appreciate. But she may not be up to it. 

5:30 am email, she threw my message from last weekend back at me.

X - I feel like text message exchanges about things like the bubble run are not necessary. I'm confident in your abilities. Please use Cozi.com for updates instead.


----------



## Conrad

She must have seen Tiger's Facebook pictures.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> X - I feel like text message exchanges about things like the bubble run are not necessary. I'm confident in your abilities. Please use Cozi.com for updates instead.


Good. The less contact between the two of you. The better.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Good. The less contact between the two of you. The better.


I admit I was a little impressed. 

Although she didn't answer my question re: drop off time. I consider that to be a green light today.


----------



## zillard

Just got a text.

X - Are there any more mason jars left at the house? If so, can you please bring them when you drop D7 off? 

I am not answering that.


----------



## Struggling4ever

Hermes said:


> The books I am reading (and re-reading) right now:
> 
> 1.Divorce Remedy
> 2. Divorce Busting
> 3. No more mr nice guy
> 4. Married Man Sex Primer
> 5. 5 Love Languages
> 6. Hope for the Separated
> 7. His Needs, Her Needs
> 8. Marriage Fitness
> 
> If you can get them, I would highly recommend it.


Not sure I get it? If someone doesn't want to be with you and make you the #1 priority in their life, why read all these books? Why spend all of this time and energy? I think the old saying holds true...You have to let them go. If they don't come back then they were never yours in the first place. I have spent years with triggers and mind movies...because of an affair. If my wife wanted to have an affair again, or if I could go back... it would be bye bye!


----------



## zillard

Struggling4ever said:


> Not sure I get it? If someone doesn't want to be with you and make you the #1 priority in their life, why read all these books? Why spend all of this time and energy? I think the old saying holds true...You have to let them go. If they don't come back then they were never yours in the first place. I have spent years with triggers and mind movies...because of an affair. If my wife wanted to have an affair again, or if I could go back... it would be bye bye!


The books are for you. Not them. 

To be a better person, spouse and lover. The X may not be around to enjoy the benefits of that... but someone will.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> Just got a text.
> 
> X - Are there any more mason jars left at the house? If so, can you please bring them when you drop D7 off?
> 
> I am not answering that.


When she asks in person, just say there wasn't any. Lol.


----------



## Struggling4ever

zillard said:


> Yes, that was an incredibly important step for me too.
> 
> Learning to live in the present, stop picking apart the past, and let go of any expectations and fear of what the future will bring._Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds awesome! I so need to do this!



zillard said:


> For me,* I could not do that until I fully owned my faults. Accepted that at times I am an @ss. Really looked at myself from above and saw that the breakdown of the M was really not all her fault.*
> 
> *Yes, it came to a head with her infidelity and dishonesty. That is 100% on her.* But I used that to ignore myself. To continue hiding. To stay on denial.
> 
> *Only after I apologized with no string attached and no expectations was I able to also let her crap go.* To fully empathize and see that despite her incredibly selfish actions I am also imperfect. *How can I ever expect forgiveness from anyone if I am unwilling to forgive myself? *
> *By owning my own mess I was able to really see that her mess is her own and not my responsibility.* So why try to fix it? Why jump to help when my assistance is neither asked for nor appreciated?_Posted via Mobile Device_


I have been on a journey of trying to break free and also trying to be a better person.. This is all great stuff for me to read!




zillard said:


> It set me free. It gave me back my own power.* I allowed myself to be me. *
> *Focusing on my wants, needs and desires is not selfish! *Regardless of how anyone else sees it. It is love. And due to that I am in a better place to share that love. With no covert contracts. Just because I want to!
> others appreciate that. And if they don't? F'em.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you! My wifes affair was over 12 years ago..We rugswept and "burried it" except for me it was always there I just didn't talk about it. Certain things happened that made me realize that if it had been the other way around - I would never have heard the end of it and we would have been finished. I am finally in an in-house seperation and moving out at least for awhile very soon. My wife is for the most part an amazing woman but somethings will never be right and it changed me as a person! I always took care of everyone else and would feel guilty focusing on me.. I thank you for your sharing!


----------



## zillard

Kid exchange:

D7 gave her mom the flowers that she picked out. Lillies and roses. Also a few fake roses because "they last FOREVER dad!"

X loved them. Squealed and thanked D. 

X - I don't know if you got my text. Are there more mason jars at the house?

Z - No.

X - Ok. Cuz the big plant (pothos I let her take) I could totally lop off some stuff and mason jar it. It's getting beefy. 

Z - Yes, it's big.

She rambled on an on about D's meds. You need to do this. She can have this med this often. From her "pharmaceutical standpoint" she feels this and that. This is recommended but she would do this and blah blah nothing I haven't heard before.

Z - yes. (and I handed her more asthma med as she'd be running out and D needs it)

X - Yeah I got up at 8 o'clock this morning. I don't know what happened. I just woke up at 8 o'clock and I was awake. It pissed me off. Cuz I could totally be sleeping. So I went to Sprouts and got some stuff and I'm cooking and called grandma.

Z - weird.

X to D7 - Do you wanna see the new car!?! Yeah?

We walked out to parking lot. 

X - see there's dad's car. and right over here is my car. it's just like dad's car but shorter. 

She showed us the new car. Told me all about her purchasing experience. How much she paid. About her insurance. How well she did with the sales guys. About how a guy friend of her's is really into that make and recommended a good mechanic. How she really misses my car. 

Z - it looks nice.

X - I think I did really good. Where did you park? 

Z - right there. D7, climb out and give me a hug. 

While I waited X reached up to reposition the necklace I was wearing. I said goodbye to D and climbed in my car while they walked back to the apt. 

SMH. The make she bought (same as mine, almost same color) is going to be a beast for her to maintain. Foreign and more pricey. Getting it used and older means more repairs and they are going to cost her a pretty penny. The car already has problems. Auto locks don't work. Trunk release doesn't work. Back seat is screwy on one side. Auto windows in back don't work. (she volunteered this info as D7 was climbing around in it pushing buttons). Tires are nice and shiny but need replacing soon. I'm glad I don't have to worry about what's under the hood. 

Oh well. She'll learn.


----------



## 06Daddio08

SMH means?


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> SMH means?


shaking my head


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Oh well. She'll learn.


Perhaps


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Perhaps


I wouldn't buy the new car I have a decade old, with my salary. Or new. I got it based on our dual income. I'll make it work now cuz I love it and I committed... and I can with careful budgeting. 

She makes less than 1/3 of what I do. 

She will learn. May be a hard lesson though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I wouldn't buy the new car I have a decade old, with my salary. Or new. I got it based on our dual income. I'll make it work now cuz I love it and I committed... and I can with careful budgeting.
> 
> She makes less than 1/3 of what I do.
> 
> She will learn. May be a hard lesson though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


C'mon brother

She's simply imitating you.. the most direct form of flattery.

Doesn't sound like she's learning anything - yet.

Quite stubborn.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> C
> Quite stubborn.


I used to call my brother Samuel the Mule. 

Until I met her.


----------



## aug

zillard said:


> I used to call my brother Samuel the Mule.
> 
> Until I met her.




So, do you call her "Samuel the Mule" now instead of your brother?


----------



## zillard

aug said:


> So, do you call her "Samuel the Mule" now instead of your brother?


Can you guess who butted heads more than anyone?


----------



## zillard

Atmosphere - Became - YouTube


----------



## zillard

Called my mother to make sure she got the flowers I sent. Had a really good talk. Told her how much I appreciate everything she's taught me over the years, etc. She melted. 

Funny. She said she slept in today (unusual as she is very early riser), but got woken up by a call from X. 

X told her she wanted to catch her before church and knew she'd be up. Ma replied - I'm surprised YOU'RE up! She told me how much she appreciated hearing from her. And hopes she is doing well. 

Despite the issues I've had with my mother... she is amazing. I got snipped because I didn't think X could handle a second child. My mother had 13 and still maintains a welcoming, loving, positive aura to all. 

What a woman!


----------



## Awakening2012

Wow, Z - I did not know you came from such a large family! Your Mom sounds like a gem. So sweet of you giving her flowers and words of appreciation  I hope you are close with some of your that can be of support to you as well.

Enjoy your Sunday!

Best, A12


----------



## zillard

Awakening2012 said:


> Wow, Z - I did not know you came from such a large family! Your Mom sounds like a gem. So sweet of you giving her flowers and words of appreciation  I hope you are close with some of your that can be of support to you as well.
> 
> Enjoy your Sunday!
> 
> Best, A12


This is exactly why I'm moving D7 back to my hometown at the end of the month. I want her to have that large loving family in her life. 

Now more than ever!


----------



## Conrad

13 children?

My God


----------



## hope4family

Coming from a family of 8. To me, the 5 more isn't much difference.


----------



## zillard

Diggin the One Transaction at a Time thread. TAM needs more of that. Thought this post would be more relevant here though.

Yesterday I dropped off my daughter at X's apartment, after taking her to the store to pick out something for her mother. She chose flowers. Nothing from me. No card. The words "mother's day" never left my mouth. I handed D the flowers, she gave them to her mom.

Today before X returned D, she sent me a text. "Just had an emo conversation with D7 about the move  " 

Nothing from me. I have no sympathy. I experience that 6 days a week. Don't whine to me about once.

When they arrived she brought it up again. I asked her to step back outside to discuss away from D7. When we got outside she immediately reached into her car and grabbed a smoke. 

X - Ok, what did you want to say?

Z - You mentioned an emotional exchange with D. How did it go for her?

Stick to D. X's emotions about it are irrelevant. 

She explained. It was the typical exchange. D is mad mom isn't moving too. Wants nothing to change. 

Z - There are a lot of big changes coming to a head. That will be stressful for her. 

She mentioned calling my mother to say HMD this morning. Fishing. 

Z - That was nice.

By this time X is in tears. Stepped closer to me. Leaned in. Clearly wanted a hug and comfort. I stood firm, looking her in the eyes. 

And then I turned around.

She followed me back inside. Said bye to her daughter. D and I started talking together about school events. I thought X was already gone. Halfway through my convo with D I turned my head and saw X. She was still here. Leaning against the doorway, watching us.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Diggin the One Transaction at a Time thread. TAM needs more of that. Thought this post would be more relevant here though.
> 
> Yesterday I dropped off my daughter at X's apartment, after taking her to the store to pick out something for her mother. She chose flowers. Nothing from me. No card. The words "mother's day" never left my mouth. I handed D the flowers, she gave them to her mom.
> 
> Today before X returned D, she sent me a text. "Just had an emo conversation with D7 about the move  "
> 
> Nothing from me. I have no sympathy. I experience that 6 days a week. Don't whine to me about once.
> 
> When they arrived she brought it up again. I asked her to step back outside to discuss away from D7. When we got outside she immediately reached into her car and grabbed a smoke.
> 
> X - Ok, what did you want to say?
> 
> Z - You mentioned an emotional exchange with D. How did it go for her?
> 
> Stick to D. X's emotions about it are irrelevant.
> 
> She explained. It was the typical exchange. D is mad mom isn't moving too. Wants nothing to change.
> 
> Z - There are a lot of big changes coming to a head. That will be stressful for her.
> 
> She mentioned calling my mother to say HMD this morning. Fishing.
> 
> Z - That was nice.
> 
> By this time X is in tears. Stepped closer to me. Leaned in. Clearly wanted a hug and comfort. I stood firm, looking her in the eyes.
> 
> And then I turned around.
> 
> She followed me back inside. Said bye to her daughter. D and I started talking together about school events. I thought X was already gone. Halfway through my convo with D I turned my head and saw X. She was still here. Leaning against the doorway, watching us.


I'll be honest Z, that's tough for me to read. It's a tough lesson she's learning. 

My ex offered to let me take the kids today for a few hours so the kids could spend some time with my mom. It was a nice gesture and she didn't have to do it. It shocked me to be honest. Maybe the new boundaries and not responding to her emotions are finally paying off.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Diggin the One Transaction at a Time thread. TAM needs more of that. Thought this post would be more relevant here though.
> 
> Yesterday I dropped off my daughter at X's apartment, after taking her to the store to pick out something for her mother. She chose flowers. Nothing from me. No card. The words "mother's day" never left my mouth. I handed D the flowers, she gave them to her mom.
> 
> Today before X returned D, she sent me a text. "Just had an emo conversation with D7 about the move  "
> 
> Nothing from me. I have no sympathy. I experience that 6 days a week. Don't whine to me about once.
> 
> When they arrived she brought it up again. I asked her to step back outside to discuss away from D7. When we got outside she immediately reached into her car and grabbed a smoke.
> 
> X - Ok, what did you want to say?
> 
> Z - You mentioned an emotional exchange with D. How did it go for her?
> 
> Stick to D. X's emotions about it are irrelevant.
> 
> She explained. It was the typical exchange. D is mad mom isn't moving too. Wants nothing to change.
> 
> Z - There are a lot of big changes coming to a head. That will be stressful for her.
> 
> She mentioned calling my mother to say HMD this morning. Fishing.
> 
> Z - That was nice.
> 
> By this time X is in tears. Stepped closer to me. Leaned in. Clearly wanted a hug and comfort. I stood firm, looking her in the eyes.
> 
> And then I turned around.
> 
> She followed me back inside. Said bye to her daughter. D and I started talking together about school events. I thought X was already gone. Halfway through my convo with D I turned my head and saw X. She was still here. Leaning against the doorway, watching us.


Either I'm pregnant, or my heart is softening towards D's mom. The rundown of your last few exchanges have left me sobbing.


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> Diggin the One Transaction at a Time thread. TAM needs more of that. Thought this post would be more relevant here though.
> 
> Yesterday I dropped off my daughter at X's apartment, after taking her to the store to pick out something for her mother. She chose flowers. Nothing from me. No card. The words "mother's day" never left my mouth. I handed D the flowers, she gave them to her mom.
> 
> Today before X returned D, she sent me a text. "Just had an emo conversation with D7 about the move  "
> 
> Nothing from me. I have no sympathy. I experience that 6 days a week. Don't whine to me about once.
> 
> When they arrived she brought it up again. I asked her to step back outside to discuss away from D7. When we got outside she immediately reached into her car and grabbed a smoke.
> 
> X - Ok, what did you want to say?
> 
> Z - You mentioned an emotional exchange with D. How did it go for her?
> 
> Stick to D. X's emotions about it are irrelevant.
> 
> She explained. It was the typical exchange. D is mad mom isn't moving too. Wants nothing to change.
> 
> Z - There are a lot of big changes coming to a head. That will be stressful for her.
> 
> She mentioned calling my mother to say HMD this morning. Fishing.
> 
> Z - That was nice.
> 
> By this time X is in tears. Stepped closer to me. Leaned in. Clearly wanted a hug and comfort. I stood firm, looking her in the eyes.
> 
> And then I turned around.
> 
> She followed me back inside. Said bye to her daughter. D and I started talking together about school events. I thought X was already gone. Halfway through my convo with D I turned my head and saw X. She was still here. Leaning against the doorway, watching us.






that is Reality 101 but the setting makes it 401

I know it bothered you, for sake of D and in some ways X

but remember, this is what she wanted.........

owning it is not as easy as she thought


----------



## turnera

HappyKaty said:


> Either I'm pregnant, or my heart is softening towards D's mom. The rundown of your last few exchanges have left me sobbing.


Why? She's acted selfishly the entire time and hasn't considered HIS feelings at all. Selfish enough that she was willing to basically give up her daughter just so she could have more nookie. That doesn't deserve anyone feeling sorry for her. She is just now finally feeling a consequence, and she doesn't like it.


----------



## turnera

I know a young woman with two kids under age 3 who has always admitted she was selfish and a Mean Girl. She married a Nice Guy, cheated on him with a coworker and is now getting divorced so she can marry her lover. Oh, forgot to mention: she basically gave the kids to her stbxh, sees them only on weekends (when she's working all day long), and is giving him rights to them. And the kicker, she's now posting that she's counting down the days til November when she can marry loverboy AND start a family. Keeps talking about baby fever. She doesn't want THOSE kids...she wants NEW kids.


----------



## Conrad

Somehow, chasing the "new and exciting" relationship with posOM didn't turn out quite like she expected.


----------



## HappyKaty

turnera said:


> Why? She's acted selfishly the entire time and hasn't considered HIS feelings at all. Selfish enough that she was willing to basically give up her daughter just so she could have more nookie. That doesn't deserve anyone feeling sorry for her. She is just now finally feeling a consequence, and she doesn't like it.


I'm aware of what she did. That doesn't mean the dialogue isn't tough for ME to read.


----------



## hope4family

No sympathy for "X". Sorry. 

I respect she is relatively swallowing the consequences of her actions though. I do wonder, if that hail mary pass will ever come.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> I'm aware of what she did. That doesn't mean the dialogue isn't tough for ME to read.


Hard for me too Katy. I hate seeing her in tears. My fixer part starts screaming. 

But her pain is self inflicted. I've shown her where the first aid kit is... but she is too afraid to use it.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Hard for me too Katy. I hate seeing her in tears. My fixer part starts starts screaming.
> 
> But her pain is self inflicted. I've shown her where the first aid kit is... but she is too afraid to use it.


I'm just bummed that you moved prior to getting enlightened.

Would be easier on everyone if the timing was different.


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> I'm just bummed that you moved prior to getting enlightened.
> 
> Would be easier on everyone if the timing was different.


Timing in these situations is everything. 

He did the right thing securing a future with his D though. I did something similar. It is, what it is.


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> Timing in these situations is everything.
> 
> He did the right thing securing a future with his D though. I did something similar. It is, what it is.


I totally agree.

But, I see where Katy is coming from.

She's paying a huge price... and is basically now a rabbit in the headlights.

BUT... she wants to make sure Z knows this guy loaned her his truck.

Talk about clueless.


----------



## turnera

> She's paying a huge price


meh

She can move to his town.

She doesn't want to.


----------



## Conrad

turnera said:


> meh
> 
> She can move to his town.
> 
> She doesn't want to.


I believe she eventually will.

She thought this was all just play time. But, it's real now.

Yes, I can see the pain is real.

I'm glad I don't always get what I deserve.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> I'm glad I don't always get what I deserve.


Amen!

Even human beings are capable of extending grace and mercy.

(I'm not saying you should, Z. I agree with your plan of action. It just sucks to read about it.)


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> But, I see where Katy is coming from.
> 
> She's paying a huge price... and is basically now a rabbit in the headlights.
> 
> BUT... she wants to make sure Z knows this guy loaned her his truck.
> 
> Talk about clueless.


With respect to those who are genuine in their feelings. 

It's a fine line between someone who is sorry for themselves and those who are sorry for the child. Which do we think it is?


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> With respect to those who are genuine in their feelings.
> 
> It's a fine line between someone who is sorry for themselves and those who are sorry for the child. Which do we think it is?


She's totally feeling sorry for herself.

But, that doesn't mean she hasn't made some of the most incredibly stupid mistakes imaginable.


----------



## Chuck71

most moms would fight mike tyson and claw his eyes out

for their children

Zs X is still 'just coming out of a concussion'


----------



## Conrad

Chuck,

I've got a little girl too (she's 24 now)

When the ex and I were separated in the 1990's, it was my daughter's picture that convinced me to go back home.

She had the same look on her face as Z's daughter.

The life in her eyes is balm for a father's soul.


----------



## zillard

Session with the child psych this morning. 

Was to be all three of us. Part 1 of wrapping things up. Only one session left for D7 before the move. 

X pulled a no call / no show.

IC and I agree it would fit the pattern if she self medicated after the emotional events of last night, and slept through it. 

D7 was disappointed. She and the IC had a good 1/2 hr together where she opened up a little, but not much. She's such a sharp little firecracker. 

IC - Are you doing ok?

D7 - I'll be doing better once I don't feel bad anymore. (Then turns to look IC in the eye). NOT emotionally! Physically. I feel bad physically. 

IC and I then had a good 1/2 session alone. I brought up X's car wreck and relayed what I'd heard. 

IC - something doesn't quite add up there. 

We discussed logistics of move day and goodbye with mom. Spoke about last night and how I felt about it. Setting boundaries with D7 as her anger will be coming out more after the move and she'll need those "no's".

Then she asked how I feel about moving to a small town. She is concerned that I will be limiting myself in the romantic arena. Doubts that I'll find the educated, artistic, free spirited woman that I deserve in a rural area. Told me I'm a really great guy and she doesn't want to see me lose touch with me and my potential there. Suggested maybe holding off buying a house and plan on a 1 year trial period instead.

I thanked her for the kind words and concern. 

While driving to the school D7 said she wonders where her mom is. I told her I don't know. It sucks that she wasn't there. And she can ask her mom about it tonight. If she wants to.


----------



## Conrad

Still unable to look past the end of her nose.


----------



## HappyKaty

Now, I'm crying for D7.


----------



## zillard

And now when X wakes today and realizes she missed the second to last session...

She will feel it.

Not a peep out of me. No "where are you". No "where were you". 

If she sends an apology text, which would fit the pattern, no response. 

Because it's not ok.


----------



## zillard

Right on cue - my phone is ringing now. 

I'm not answering.

No need to tell her I'm not ok with it. She knows.


----------



## Lifescript

She has left you no choice Z. How the hell does she miss a session knowing how hard this is for D. The msg it sends is that she doesn't care. I think the move will do D good. Her mom will keep disappointing her if given the chance.


----------



## zillard

Voicemail 

X - Fvck. I'm sorry. I missed the appointment. I slept through my alarm. Then it looks like my alarm was set for 9 o'clock and not earlier. 

Then 3 sentences that were completely unintelligible.

During the session today:

IC - Did X have to work last night?

Z - No.

IC - Why didn't X just keep D7 Sunday night and let you take her from here this morning?

Z - Because she didn't even think about. This whole time she could have had D7 every Sunday night and dropped her off at school on Mondays. We discussed that. She chose not to - because she "can't" get up that early.

IC - hmm. And on some level I'm sure D7 sees that.


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> She has left you no choice Z. How the hell does she miss a session knowing how hard this is for D. The msg it sends is that she doesn't care. I think the move will do D good. Her mom will keep disappointing her if given the chance.


Last night I felt bad for X. 

Right now I am angry. At X for letting D down. 

And at myself for my naive delusion of the mother I wanted her to be.


----------



## HappyKaty

Okay, I'm back to thinking she's a cvnt. She's no better than Butt Pirate. It's all about HER, all the time. 

What a life.


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> Okay, I'm back to thinking she's a cvnt. She's no better than Butt Pirate. It's all about HER, all the time.
> 
> What a life.


Sadly, we seem to have a bumper crop of them.

BTW, I always refer to him as "The Butt Pirate"

I would think you'd follow that lead


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Z - Because she didn't even think about. This whole time she could have had D7 every Sunday night and dropped her off at school on Mondays. We discussed that. She chose not to - because she "can't" get up that early.


Ding. 

Like my ex telling me how she wants to be so involved with my sons life. Even 50-50.

So then I offer her more time.

"I have work." - So does hope. 
"I am busy. I have plans." - Watching a child somehow makes me free?
"That doesn't work for me." - Do I tell son this? 
"I'm tired from _blank_." - I have a club, hope party of one. 
"I'm sick." - lol

Thanks for letting me vent. Just know, that you aren't alone. My son isn't even 2. But he has adapted very well and amazes me with his progress.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> BTW, I always refer to him as "The Butt Pirate"
> 
> I would think you'd follow that lead


Well, I know real butt pirates that would feel privileged to be THE one. 

However, I do agree that he takes the crown. Or tiara. Or whatever.


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> Ding.
> 
> Like my ex telling me how she wants to be so involved with my sons life. Even 50-50.
> 
> So then I offer her more time.
> 
> "I have work." - So does hope.
> "I am busy. I have plans." - Watching a child somehow makes me free?
> "That doesn't work for me." - Do I tell son this?
> "I'm tired from _blank_." - I have a club, hope party of one.
> "I'm sick." - lol
> 
> Thanks for letting me vent. Just know, that you aren't alone. My son isn't even 2. But he has adapted very well and amazes me with his progress.


Give him that crew cut and watch the fur fly


----------



## zillard

Parenting when it's convenient.

Because, just like MrsRG, they see their children as a burden more often than not.

I see mine as a gift. Full of great surprises. 

Daily.

IC told me a little about the last session, which was just X and D. 

D was expressing anger that I'm moving. And anger that X is not. 

D to X - They have a bunch of stuff. There's an Olive Garden there. Work at Olive Garden!


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Parenting when it's convenient.
> 
> Because, just like MrsRG, they see their children as a burden more often than not.
> 
> I see mine as a gift. Full of great surprises.
> 
> Daily.


Gotta have them on Mother's Day though, so they can be Mother of the Year

A prop - still all about them


----------



## Ceegee

Is she still in IC? She has no clue.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Is she still in IC? She has no clue.


Last night she said she had to cancel two sessions in a row. 

"Because of the wreck. And because I don't have any money."

Funny. Last week she was telling me about the envelope of cash she had from the insurance check. Couldn't spare $50 of that for a session? 

Wouldn't.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Last night she said she had to cancel two sessions in a row.
> 
> "Because of the wreck. And because I don't have any money."
> 
> Funny. Last week she was telling me about the envelope of cash she had from the insurance check. Couldn't spare $50 of that for a session?
> 
> Wouldn't.


Most often, the "can'ts" in this life are actually "won'ts"


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Most often, the "can'ts" in this life are actually "won'ts"


We really can do a lot... if we want to. 

I lost her second income. After getting a new car with high payment. No child support. 

I'm keeping the car. 
I'm keeping D in new clothes. 
I'm updating my wardrobe.
I'm paying for interstate relocation.
I'm paying for IC for me and D.

...and I'm still able to go out, and go on vacations with Tiger. 

I make it work because I want to do those things.

I find a way to "can".


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> Gotta have them on Mother's Day though, so they can be Mother of the Year
> 
> A prop - still all about them


Mine didn't have theirs on Mothers day. Likely for work, I really don't care.


----------



## Chuck71

Zs X still wants to try and fall down, in hopes he will lend a helping hand

she thinks the Hail Mary pass can be thrown with three seconds left

Z can't bring himself to take my D away

well....hate to burst your bubble but......Z n D are leaving

Dad told me there are some people you can hold a loaded pistol to their head

and they still do not think you will do it, the Don't Tell Me...Show Me Club

Waiting until school was out was a great move

it would not shock me to see X check D out of school and......return to AZ

as for oversleeping, does Ringo the truck dude have an alarm clock X can borrow?


----------



## HappyKaty

Chuck71 said:


> she thinks the Hail Mary pass can be thrown with three seconds left


She must not watch much football. Otherwise, she'd know that play rarely works. And, even when it does, the receiver, downfield, REALLLLLY wants to win that game.


----------



## Chuck71

I agree. There are only so many Drew Pearson and Roger Staubachs around. But from X's POV there is still time left on the clock.


----------



## turnera

Speaking of keeping D in clothes...do you ever take her to resale shops? It's a great experience, cos you only have one of each item, so lots and lots to choose from, AND it costs a fraction of what you'd pay at a retail store. I get most of my, my daughter's, and my husband's clothes that way (though he doesn't know it). I can get a Ralph Lauren Polo shirt that retails for $75 for about $10.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Speaking of keeping D in clothes...do you ever take her to resale shops? It's a great experience, cos you only have one of each item, so lots and lots to choose from, AND it costs a fraction of what you'd pay at a retail store. I get most of my, my daughter's, and my husband's clothes that way (though he doesn't know it). I can get a Ralph Lauren Polo shirt that retails for $75 for about $10.


You bet! I love thrift shops. And Ross and Kohls. I also screen print tees for her and get our blank shirts at wholesale, which helps a lot.


----------



## turnera

I can't stand Ross. I have NEVER been in one where it wasn't a complete mess. They just don't hire enough people.

TJ Maxx, on the other hand, is always spotless. My DD22 worked there through college; great place and better deals.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> I can't stand Ross. I have NEVER been in one where it wasn't a complete mess. They just don't hire enough people.
> 
> TJ Maxx, on the other hand, is always spotless. My DD22 worked there through college; great place and better deals.


Ross IS always a mess and unorganized. But great deals on certain things. 

I've had great luck with Kohls, for the styles I like. Signed up for their dept card. When using the discount for that, plus coupons in the mail I can often get at least an additional 30% off their clearance rack. 

D7 and I have a lot of fun in the summer. We both prefer shorts and tees. So we have fun designing and printing shirts for ourselves. She'll do a drawing and I take that and put it on her choice of shirt. 

Unique clothes, great experience, learning a skill, plus light on the wallet!


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> D7 and I have a lot of fun in the summer. We both prefer shorts and tees. So we have fun designing and printing shirts for ourselves. She'll do a drawing and I take that and put it on her choice of shirt.
> 
> Unique clothes, great experience, learning a skill, plus light on the wallet!


You awesome Daddies never cease to amaze me. Y'all rock!


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Zs X still wants to try and fall down, in hopes he will lend a helping hand


Of course. I taught her well. The thing she doesn't understand is I'm not old Z anymore. 



Chuck71 said:


> Z can't bring himself to take my D away


As long as she suspects this - at all - she can avoid reality. I expect a lot of reaching out after I move. 



Chuck71 said:


> Waiting until school was out was a great move


I'm very glad I did. For a number of reasons. 

Look at all that X has shown me about herself in the last couple months. I can see it now because I'm here and awake. I believe I would have much more trouble moving on had I up and ran without stretching for a bit. 

Also look at what she has shown D7. Not much good, but will be good for her in the long run to see this before moving. To know on some level her mother's priorities.


----------



## turnera

You and she could make shirts and sell them...put some money in her savings account.

Here's something I did when DD was little. I gave her an allowance every week, so if she wanted something, she had to save up for it. She had 3 banks; if I gave her $5 a week, I 'suggested' that she put $3 in her 'spend' bank, $1 in her 'savings account' bank, and $1 in her 'charity' bank. At the end of each year, she'd take her savings money and deposit in her savings account and she would choose what charity she wanted to donate her charity money to, and we'd go do that. Her spend bank, she was allowed to do whatever she wanted with it (within limits, of course). For about 5 years, every penny went to Dragonball Z videos, lol.


----------



## hope4family

turnera said:


> You and she could make shirts and sell them...put some money in her savings account.
> 
> Here's something I did when DD was little. I gave her an allowance every week, so if she wanted something, she had to save up for it. She had 3 banks; if I gave her $5 a week, I 'suggested' that she put $3 in her 'spend' bank, $1 in her 'savings account' bank, and $1 in her 'charity' bank. At the end of each year, she'd take her savings money and deposit in her savings account and she would choose what charity she wanted to donate her charity money to, and we'd go do that. Her spend bank, she was allowed to do whatever she wanted with it (within limits, of course). For about 5 years, every penny went to Dragonball Z videos, lol.


Ok Turnera. She is still single right.  

I don't care, I went there.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> You and she could make shirts and sell them...put some money in her savings account.
> 
> Here's something I did when DD was little. I gave her an allowance every week, so if she wanted something, she had to save up for it. She had 3 banks; if I gave her $5 a week, I 'suggested' that she put $3 in her 'spend' bank, $1 in her 'savings account' bank, and $1 in her 'charity' bank. At the end of each year, she'd take her savings money and deposit in her savings account and she would choose what charity she wanted to donate her charity money to, and we'd go do that. Her spend bank, she was allowed to do whatever she wanted with it (within limits, of course). For about 5 years, every penny went to Dragonball Z videos, lol.


Oh mine's a saver! She gets a little bit here and there. Mostly any and all pocket change I come across. She has about $100 saved up right now. lol.

I did run an online kid shirt store for a couple years. Funky onesies, etc. Just on the side at home. Didn't make a ton but kept itself afloat and covered all our clothes. Was fun. 

I still do medium runs for local businesses. But I took down the estore a couple years ago to rebuild and then procrastinated getting it back up. 

Getting it back online will be a great project for D7 and I.


----------



## turnera

hope4family said:


> Ok Turnera. She is still single right.
> 
> I don't care, I went there.


I don't get it. :scratchhead:


----------



## Chuck71

Turnera, I's tink hope4 is a' wantin to court your single D


----------



## hope4family

@turnera - me asking if someones daughter was available on an internet forum might be taken as bad taste. Or so I am used too. 

I just heard, saver, dragonball z, and i'm like 80% attracted right there. (Being sarcastic again.) I can't help it, the concept that women like that exist make me giggle like a school boy all over again.

I date two different anime fans. All in all, loved both. But the dragon ball z one was WWAAYYY more fun.


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> @turnera - me asking if someones daughter was available on an internet forum might be taken as bad taste. Or so I am used too.
> 
> I just heard, saver, dragonball z, and i'm like 80% attracted right there. (Being sarcastic again.) I can't help it, the concept that women like that exist make me giggle like a school boy all over again.
> 
> I date two different anime fans. All in all, loved both. But the dragon ball z one was WWAAYYY more fun.


Sometimes I forget many of you are the same age as my son.

Yes... Dragonballz.... how many episodes did he tell me everything that happened? How many were there? My eyes like totally glazed over.


----------



## zillard

You guys need to stop talkin about my privates. 

It's getting uncomfortable.


----------



## hope4family

298 episodes, 13 movies, 2 specials, 1 ova, another one recently released. 

I am not including Dragon Ball or Dragonball GT in this either.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> You guys need to stop talkin about my privates.
> 
> It's getting uncomfortable.


You gave up the right to snake way the moment you mentioned "Strip" like 20 times in one post. 

Just my personal opinion though. Others may not share this.


----------



## turnera

hope4family said:


> I just heard, saver, dragonball z, and i'm like 80% attracted right there. (Being sarcastic again.) I can't help it, the concept that women like that exist make me giggle like a school boy all over again.
> 
> I date two different anime fans. All in all, loved both. But the dragon ball z one was WWAAYYY more fun.


 Ah, I get it. I used to work in the graphics department at NASA, and I paid one of the guys to do a drawing of her and Trunks together (she had a crush on him). And we named a dog Krillin. 

Does it help that she also used to skateboard, she played drums for years, and she's getting a PhD in Psychoneurology?


----------



## turnera

Conrad said:


> Sometimes I forget many of you are the same age as my son.
> 
> Yes... Dragonballz.... how many episodes did he tell me everything that happened? How many were there? My eyes like totally glazed over.


 IDK, but we have an entire huge box of the videos.


----------



## turnera

hope4family said:


> 298 episodes, 13 movies, 2 specials, 1 ova, another one recently released.
> 
> I am not including Dragon Ball or Dragonball GT in this either.


 I had to watch them all with her. Did not care for GT.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Does it help that she also used to skateboard, she played drums for years, and she's getting a PhD in Psychoneurology?


Yes, that definitely helps! :smthumbup:


----------



## turnera

lol, well, you'd have a hard time getting her attention. She has a long list: cannot play guitar, cannot be a jock, cannot smoke cigarettes, must be getting at least a bachelors, prefers a masters/PhD, must have a good sense of humor, and must love to learn new things. So far, no one in undergrad has been up to her standards.

Oh, and can't be more than 5 years older than her.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> lol, well, you'd have a hard time getting her attention.


Just leave that part to me...


----------



## terrence4159

what was this about people talking about zillards privates??? must have missed that SMALL conversation


----------



## zillard

terrence4159 said:


> what was this about people talking about zillards privates??? must have missed that SMALL conversation


bwahahaha


----------



## Pomlover

There's no way she is just watching movies. I hate to break it to you but they're sleeping together. She needs to cut him off if you ever want to work things out.


----------



## Chuck71

raises hand....... Mr. Z...... where are we at now???


----------



## zillard

Oh she wasn't watching movies. But that's old news. Now she's truck nuts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

turnera said:


> lol, well, you'd have a hard time getting her attention. She has a long list: cannot play guitar, cannot be a jock, cannot smoke cigarettes, must be getting at least a bachelors, prefers a masters/PhD, must have a good sense of humor, and must love to learn new things. So far, no one in undergrad has been up to her standards.
> 
> Oh, and can't be more than 5 years older than her.



I meet all of this except for the masters/phd. But if she really wants, i'll go back to school.


----------



## Conrad

Pomlover said:


> There's no way she is just watching movies. I hate to break it to you but they're sleeping together. She needs to cut him off if you ever want to work things out.


This is a pretty long thread.

Wait until you see what happens.


----------



## zillard

I was just checking in on GutPunch's thread and saw the talk of 11 years being a common number. 

So I thought about it. Almost 9 years married here, together 10.5. 

And I realized that yesterday was our anniversary. That was the first time I ever forgot about it. Didn't even think about it yesterday.

And that is awesome!

How I spent my xanniversary evening: dinner with kiddo after washing the car together and playing in the mud out back. Put her to bed and did my exercise routine. Then chatted with Tiger, who is very excited to see me on Saturday night (I bought a cheap flight and redeemed a reward credit for a hotel for the evening). 

:smthumbup:


----------



## Chuck71

14th would have been in two weeks. Nothing seems to have bothered me yet..... may not ever ....... wait n see


----------



## zillard

Got another email from x at 3am. 

Informing me that she found one of d's toys under a stack of art supplies and paperwork. 

Unnecessary and no response needed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Any excuse to reach out.


----------



## Chuck71

let's take love out of the equation for a second

could you even trust her with her choices you have seen with D?

3AM and about a toy? SMH

tonight look for a 4AM'er and her saying she found your

1993 George Brett baseball card in the cushion


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> let's take love out of the equation for a second
> 
> could you even trust her with her choices you have seen with D?
> 
> 3AM and about a toy? SMH
> 
> tonight look for a 4AM'er and her saying she found your
> 
> 1993 George Brett baseball card in the cushion


No. She's pulled multiple no shows at the child psych, just for starters. Driving danger. No cake for Ds bday. Missing gifts. "Zonking out". 

She won't take good care of herself, much less a child.

Funny, I did get a 4am email a while back about the couch. But asking me to look for an earing.


----------



## Awakening2012

zillard said:


> Got another email from x at 3am.
> 
> Informing me that she found one of d's toys under a stack of art supplies and paperwork.
> 
> Unnecessary and no response needed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Evidently, you're on her mind at 3am and she needed a trivial excuse to ping you  Well played with the non-response.


----------



## zillard

Awakening2012 said:


> Evidently, you're on her mind at 3am and she needed a trivial excuse to ping you  Well played with the non-response.


It's a combination of stubbornness and cowardice. 

Much like the lengthy text I received on my bday - the day divorce waiting period ended. 

"  "


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> No. She's pulled multiple no shows at the child psych, just for starters. Driving danger. No cake for Ds bday. Missing gifts. "Zonking out".
> 
> She won't take good care of herself, much less a child.
> 
> Funny, I did get a 4am email a while back about the couch. But asking me to look for an earing.


Did posOM lose his?


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Did posOM lose his?


He probably would wear earrings.


----------



## zillard

what kind of guy has that as his facebook profile pic? 

:loser:


----------



## Chuck71

is that the POSOM???? no way ...... he!! no...


----------



## Chuck71

he should share make-up tips with my ex

they both look 17 years beyond death


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> is that the POSOM???? no way ...... he!! no...


Yeah, I'd totally leave my d7 at home to "watch movies" with him. 

He's a charmer, for sure.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yeah, I'd totally leave my d7 at home to "watch movies" with him.
> 
> He's a charmer, for sure.


If Punch's was the Garden Gnome, this one is the Cigar Store Indian.


----------



## Chuck71

Porn Star Tissue Thumper LOL


----------



## vi_bride04

I know any guy that does that hand gesture to me is a winner in my book!!!

:rofl:

Shows real maturity


----------



## zillard

10th year frat pledger
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> He probably would wear earrings.


Oh, that's perfect. Had to laugh.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> He probably would wear earrings.


Seeing that made me think of this:










She's having one helluva year.


----------



## Chuck71

gene simmons wanna be........ can't like this enuff


----------



## GutPunch

zillard said:


> He probably would wear earrings.


He looks like he's got it together.

Said no one ever.


----------



## turnera

Why ANY woman would even TALK to a man who publicly uses that gesture is beyond me. Tells me that the woman who does has NO SELF ESTEEM.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Why ANY woman would even TALK to a man who publicly uses that gesture is beyond me. Tells me that the woman who does has NO SELF ESTEEM.


Weeks of all night facebook chats while that pic popped up with every reply.

You are right. No self esteem. 

Had nothing to do with me.


----------



## turnera

That's one step short of using the C word, in terms of lack of respect for women and wanting only one thing from them.


----------



## BWBill

I remember when my daughter was that age. 

You're headed into some great years with her.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> That's one step short of using the C word, in terms of lack of respect for women and wanting only one thing from them.


I completely agree. 

I never once called my X so much as a b!tch, or referred to her as such. 

Until I let the DDay rage overcome me.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> I completely agree.
> 
> I never once called my X so much as a b!tch, or referred to her as such.
> 
> Until I let the DDay rage overcome me.


I did. 

She hated me for it. 

Because she knew it was true.

Edit: I didn't say it in anger either. Said it just in a calm relaxed tone. Which in my mind, is worse then in the heat of the moment.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> I completely agree.
> 
> I never once called my X so much as a b!tch, or referred to her as such.
> 
> Until I let the DDay rage overcome me.


I never called mine anything either. Still haven't. Others have though - as recently as today. Third separate person asked me today if she suffered from a mental disorder. This one specifically cited Borderline which is precisely what I and the mental health professional believe she has.


----------



## zillard

X called to say goodnight to D7. 

After hellos she commented that D was still coughing. 

X - Your Dad hasn't taken you to the doctor yet?

D - I don't know. I'm just watchin a show. 

X - I asked if you went to school. 

D - No, I stayed home. 

X - Again!? I love you baby. Can I talk to your dad for a minute?

Z - Hello

X - I just wanted to ask about her cough. 

Z - She's still coughing. 

X - And you didn't think it warranted a trip to the doctor?

Z - I've been updating the Cozi calendar about it. 

X - Oh, I haven't looked at it. 

Z - She's been seen multiple times for the same thing. They always say the same thing. Do X,Y,Z and if it gets worse a round of antibiotics. 

X - Well she needs her (nebulizer) to knock it out.

Z - I kept her home to do treatments all day long. 

X - Oh, well I just wanted to see what was going on.

Z - Ok. Do you want to talk to D7 again?

Dial tone. 

---

SMH. The girl has asthma. Add allergies to it and this happens every season. For years now. X has always been against antibiotics too. 

She missed a half day today at school. We cuddled on the couch watching movies in between her treatments and then made an extra large batch of waffles together to freeze for easy breakfasts. 

X is just looking for any reason to think I'm failing. Trying to move back to persecutor with me and move to rescuer with D.

I should've stopped at my line about the Cozi calendar.


----------



## Chuck71

Xs pre-med degree was from where?


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Xs pre-med degree was from where?


Her mommy was a nurse and she's a pharm tech. 

So she knows best. Doctors are stupid... until I don't rush D in for a cough.


----------



## ReGroup

Trying to exert control any way she can.

She knows that her relevance in your lives is diminishing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

thank God mine only knows my email


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> thank God mine only knows my email


Thats great. I imagine it'd be so much easier without coparenting. I know you care for her son and treated him as your own. But the young ones. Ug. 

The last couple nights after her no show at the psych, she called d to say goodnight. Twice d cut her short. 

D - can I go now?

I don't know that she fully realizes the extent of the damage she has already done to her relationship with her daughter. It's clear that d is already seeing through her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

I loved him as my own, until he showed me otherwise. But unconditional love, I admit.....that was not there. Ex's stance now, in a way makes you feel good but more sad. Her not taking active part in Ds life shows you how disturbed she is.....you feel glad......it was nothing to do with you. 

But D will miss out on mommy things, priceless things in her life, like us when dad lets us wash the car for the first time.....you see the hurt in Ds eyes and you would do anything to take that away. But it helps her realize how things in life turn out. But she's getting to move to your huge family, I'm sure she will be A-OK

Cinderella - Coming Home - YouTube

was going to send this when you moved but this seems fitting .......


----------



## soca70

zillard said:


> He probably would wear earrings.


Oh dear God...


----------



## hope4family

soca70 said:


> Oh dear God...










or +1.


----------



## zillard

I had an excellent phone call with Tiger last night. Lasted for hours. 

As usual it crossed a wide spectrum of topics. From joking back and forth, to attraction, self improvement, co-parenting boundaries, and dating with children. 

I was really impressed with something. She mentioned recently losing a friend due to enforcing her boundaries. A guy friend she'd had for a while who recently tried getting out of the friend zone via her daughter. I think they may have been romantically involved at some time, but that is besides the point.

He was pushing to spend time with her and her daughter together. It made her uncomfortable and triggered her momma bear instincts so she called him on it. Apparently he didn't react very well and now she is just fine with ending the friendship all together. 

In contrast, I have previously expressed a desire to meet her daughter when the time is right. I have been insistent that if she is to come around my daughter it needs to be handled very delicately and with prep work. 

I firmly believe that by being firm with boundaries for my daughter's sake enables her to feel a sense of trust and security. And she is drawn to that. 

How silly it was to once think that enforcing boundaries pushes people away! 

And if it does... good. They shouldn't be around anyway.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> I had an excellent phone call with Tiger last night. Lasted for hours.
> 
> As usual it crossed a wide spectrum of topics. From joking back and forth, to attraction, self improvement, co-parenting boundaries, and dating with children.
> 
> I was really impressed with something. She mentioned recently losing a friend due to enforcing her boundaries. A guy friend she'd had for a while who recently tried getting out of the friend zone via her daughter. I think they may have been romantically involved at some time, but that is besides the point.
> 
> He was pushing to spend time with her and her daughter together. It made her uncomfortable and triggered her momma bear instincts so she called him on it. Apparently he didn't react very well and now she is just fine with ending the friendship all together.
> 
> In contrast, I have previously expressed a desire to meet her daughter when the time is right. I have been insistent that if she is to come around my daughter it needs to be handled very delicately and with prep work.
> 
> I firmly believe that by being firm with boundaries for my daughter's sake enables her to feel a sense of trust and security. And she is drawn to that.
> 
> How silly it was to once think that enforcing boundaries pushes people away!
> 
> And if it does... good. They shouldn't be around anyway.


My IC told me that the rule of thumb is "one year". Wait for a year after your split before introducing a significant other to your children. 

She told me that, even though you (or your X) may feel that you are ready to move on, it doesn't mean your kids are.

Sounded like good advice to me. Take it for what it's worth.

PS. Of course, my X waited all of 3 weeks before bringing PoSOM around my kids. :scratchhead:


----------



## ThreeStrikes

I often wonder how my marriage would have turned out if we had established and maintained proper boundaries from the beginning...

But, we really had no clue:scratchhead:

Failed fitness tests, angry outbursts with the intent to hurt, infidelity, etc. What a mess lol.

I definitely am looking to improve on that with my next relationship, and even with my current friendships.


----------



## zillard

I've read differing opinions, ranging from 3 months to a year. Some with those time periods beginning with the split, some from when you start seeing a SO. 

I feel how it is handled is just as or more important than actual time frame.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> I've read differing opinions, ranging from 3 months to a year. Some with those time periods beginning with the split, some from when you start seeing a SO.
> 
> I feel how it is handled is just as or more important than actual time frame.


People need to stop giving me reasons not to date. 

That being said. Since my ex-wife left the home 7 months ago. I just now had my first party with people over. My son did exceedingly well. Hopefully I can do it again. Well see.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

hope4family said:


> People need to stop giving me reasons not to date.
> 
> That being said. Since my ex-wife left the home 7 months ago. I just now had my first party with people over. My son did exceedingly well. Hopefully I can do it again. Well see.


Nobody said don't date.

We're talking about introducing a SO to your children.


----------



## hope4family

@Threestrikes - I was mainly being sarcastic. 

Still though, I have been as patient as I possibly can be (perhaps too patient) on whom I have visit.


----------



## ReGroup

ThreeStrikes said:


> I often wonder how my marriage would have turned out if we had established and maintained proper boundaries from the beginning...
> 
> But, we really had no clue:scratchhead:
> 
> Failed fitness tests, angry outbursts with the intent to hurt, infidelity, etc. What a mess lol.
> 
> I definitely am looking to improve on that with my next relationship, and even with my current friendships.


3x, it'll definitely be a whole lot better.

And you'll see the red flags a mile away.


----------



## zillard

X - Do you know D7s new school schedule? I want to plan some PTO, but I have to do it by the 22nd, and PTO is shut down til 7/15 I believe. More shenanigans to contend with. 

X - I hate [my employer]

Z - I have a rental apt just for the summer while I look for a place to purchase. Won't know which school for some time. But I will see if there is a district calendar available for fall and send over if so. 

X - They just announced the PTO lockdown this week. Id like to visit during the summer if possible. I don't want D7 to think I'm gone forever. 

Z - We'll work around you during the summer. That's your time when you are available. Would be great for her to have some summer visits planned before the move. 

X - That's what I want to do. but I work for a bunch of Nazis for the time being. Just let me know when the first day of school starts. I can't take any time off til mid July. 

Z - Calendar sent. 

X - Thank you. Are you ok with a week or so at the end of summer or the beginning of August?

X - They are doing XXXX at work until mid July so I'm kinda held hostage. 

Z - Yes. You can see her anytime you like during the summer with notice.

X - Great. I'll try to get the days off. They cut PTO, revised the attendance policy so everyone is screwed, and made it harder to get time off, all within the last week. 

X - I'll try my best to get the days off. I have about 65 hrs of PTO I can use. 

Z - Ok. The more the better. I won't keep her from you. Family/camp/lake outings take a back seat to her seeing you. 

X - Thank you. I feel like I'm losing her. I don't want her to feel that way too. 

Not answering that. 

X - So end of July, beginning of August is ok? I'll request a week tonight. 

Z - Yes. 

X - I'm doing it tonight, when I get the chance. 

----

Parenting plan has D7 with me through the school year. With X for school breaks. And with X during the entire summer (minus 2 weeks vacation with me). Then rotating holidays. 

First summer in play, X is going to come visit for a week at the end of it. 

How nice. :redcard:


----------



## Lifescript

Your convos we ex should be a must read for TAM newbies. You really show control, firmness while being fair and open. Great job!


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> X - Do you know D7s new school schedule? I want to plan some PTO, but I have to do it by the 22nd, and PTO is shut down til 7/15 I believe. More shenanigans to contend with.
> 
> X - I hate [my employer]
> 
> Z - I have a rental apt just for the summer while I look for a place to purchase. Won't know which school for some time. But I will see if there is a district calendar available for fall and send over if so.
> 
> X - They just announced the PTO lockdown this week. Id like to visit during the summer if possible. I don't want D7 to think I'm gone forever.
> 
> Z - We'll work around you during the summer. That's your time when you are available. Would be great for her to have some summer visits planned before the move.
> 
> X - That's what I want to do. but I work for a bunch of Nazis for the time being. Just let me know when the first day of school starts. I can't take any time off til mid July.
> 
> Z - Calendar sent.
> 
> X - Thank you. Are you ok with a week or so at the end of summer or the beginning of August?
> 
> X - They are doing XXXX at work until mid July so I'm kinda held hostage.
> 
> Z - Yes. You can see her anytime you like during the summer with notice.
> 
> X - Great. I'll try to get the days off. They cut PTO, revised the attendance policy so everyone is screwed, and made it harder to get time off, all within the last week.
> 
> X - I'll try my best to get the days off. I have about 65 hrs of PTO I can use.
> 
> Z - Ok. The more the better. I won't keep her from you. Family/camp/lake outings take a back seat to her seeing you.
> 
> X - Thank you. I feel like I'm losing her. I don't want her to feel that way too.
> 
> Not answering that.
> 
> X - So end of July, beginning of August is ok? I'll request a week tonight.
> 
> Z - Yes.
> 
> X - I'm doing it tonight, when I get the chance.
> 
> ----
> 
> Parenting plan has D7 with me through the school year. With X for school breaks. And with X during the entire summer (minus 2 weeks vacation with me). Then rotating holidays.
> 
> First summer in play, X is going to come visit for a week at the end of it.
> 
> How nice. :redcard:


Pathetic

But, typical


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Pathetic
> 
> But, typical


Yes, as expected. 

Legally, since I'm moving after school gets out, X could keep D7 here until August.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yes, as expected.
> 
> Legally, since I'm moving after school gets out, X could keep D7 here until August.


She won't.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> She won't.


Never thought she would. 

That's why the plan has always been D7, me and a moving truck.


----------



## GutPunch

jeez....smh

Something's wrong with her.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> X - Thank you. I feel like I'm losing her. I don't want her to feel that way too.


Really, ya fvckin' dingus? You're not losing sh!t. She's losing you because you're lame.

Even though I was expecting this, I still can't help but feel angry, for D's sake. 

We are gonna have so much fun this summer it's not even funny!


----------



## ReGroup

zillard said:


> Really, ya fvckin' dingus? You're not losing sh!t. She's losing you because you're lame.
> 
> Even though I was expecting this, I still can't help but feel angry, for D's sake.
> 
> We are gonna have so much fun this summer it's not even funny!


That's my boy... let it ALL out.


----------



## Chuck71

makes you wonder if you promised no child support, would she sign all rights over to you


----------



## hope4family

Chuck71 said:


> makes you wonder if you promised no child support, would she sign all rights over to you


Unlikely. 

That would be the final blow to their ego. As it stands, she likely feels as if "this is the best" and maybe she can "fight later". 

Either way, she can be passive forever. It's a win-win for her in her mind. 

Worse case, she gets to play the victim card and blame it all on Z some day.


----------



## ReGroup

As long as D7 knows the truth - What X "thinks" doesn't matter.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> makes you wonder if you promised no child support, would she sign all rights over to you


I already waived child support. 

I don't need her money. Plus, it helps her hang herself later if she does try to turn D on me.


----------



## ReGroup

zillard said:


> if she does try to turn D on me.


Count on it. Already happening to me.


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> Count on it. Already happening to me.


Just look, teenage D:

She gave me permission to move with you. 

The summers were hers, yet where was she?

She only had to contribute medical insurance, yet still had excuses for not coming.

She could have moved at any time.

I took you to her as often as she wanted. Even paid 25% of travel for visitation.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Just look, teenage D:


If you want to know what teenage D will be like, take a quick trip up to Chi-Town and I'll introduce you to my D13... It'll be like using the Way-Back Machine in the wrong direction.


----------



## Tron

That's a lot of raw emotion from you, Z. Hard to keep it bottled up all the time.

This is my first post on your thread but I've been following for months. I really hope you don't disappear from here after the move. The Z-Rad tag team is pretty damn effective.


----------



## terrence4159

i dont know if you know this Z but your x is about 7 cans short of a six pack


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> That's a lot of raw emotion from you, Z. Hard to keep it bottled up all the time.
> 
> This is my first post on your thread but I've been following for months. I really hope you don't disappear from here after the move. The Z-Rad tag team is pretty damn effective.


Yeah, had to open the valve a little yesterday. 

Glad you joined the thread Tron! 

I won't disappear, but will probably jump over to Life After Divorce. No plans to nuke this thread either. It seems to help, which I'm very happy about.


----------



## zillard

No bedtime call for D7 from X last night, which is not normal.

D asked nothing, mentioned nothing, slept well, and her cough is getting better.

She is so awesome. For the last week or so, anytime I put on any music she demands to hear a specific song. "Play Moose. Uprising Dad!" She sings along and gets disappointed when I refuse to put it on repeat. lol

Muse - Uprising - YouTube


----------



## Chuck71

From post 1 to now, complete 180

it hits on about every situation possible

A slight read is 101 but a stoudt paper makes it 501

I don't have children but thanks to you

I learned about co=parenting and how any one can be

co-D at times, short or long

to be aggressive in tactics, no prisoners

IF new gal becomes psycho gal, i can refer to your thread

inspiration, to the tenth power


----------



## Awakening2012

zillard said:


> Yeah, had to open the valve a little yesterday.
> 
> Glad you joined the thread Tron!
> 
> I won't disappear, but will probably jump over to Life After Divorce. No plans to nuke this thread either. It seems to help, which I'm very happy about.


Great to hear you're staying on TAM, Z - yay! See you over on the LAD aisle (my D supposedly to be finalized by the end of May).

Agree, you thread is a rich trove of helpful material for those poor souls finding themselves in similar situations and learning to find their way through this dark forest.

Cheers, - A12


----------



## Awakening2012

zillard said:


> No bedtime call for D7 from X last night, which is not normal.
> 
> D asked nothing, mentioned nothing, slept well, and her cough is getting better.
> 
> She is so awesome. For the last week or so, anytime I put on any music she demands to hear a specific song. "Play Moose. Uprising Dad!" She sings along and gets disappointed when I refuse to put it on repeat. lol
> 
> Muse - Uprising - YouTube


Love it! Your D has great taste!


----------



## zillard

Just got a message from X's brother. 

"Z man, sis is doing like really really really really bad .. idk what to do."

Z - I hate to see her doing bad. Truly breaks my heart. But she fired me, and I need to move on for me and D7. I know that you just being there to listen means a lot to her. But you can't fix it either. She needs to pick herself up.


----------



## ReGroup

Good Job Z. Not your problem unless she ask and you are willing to help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

You may want to suggest that he contact her parents or some other people who can help.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Just got a message from X's brother.
> 
> "Z man, sis is doing like really really really really bad .. idk what to do."
> 
> Z - I hate to see her doing bad. Truly breaks my heart. But she fired me, and I need to move on for me and D7. I know that you just being there to listen means a lot to her. But you can't fix it either. She needs to pick herself up.


Dude, I dont know about your relationship with your ex brother in law. 

But that wreaks of straight up manipulation.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> You may want to suggest that he contact her parents or some other people who can help.


Wouldn't even know who to suggest. Their mother is toxic. They both have PTSD and then some from childhood. X hasn't spoken to her mother in 5 years. 

No father figure in the picture. Only other people are their grandparents a state away who are both elderly, sick and can not travel.


----------



## turnera

Hmm. Doctor, maybe? I once called my brother's shrink cos he kept talking about suicide. He was furious, but apparently she helped him not do it.


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> Dude, I dont know about your relationship with your ex brother in law.
> 
> But that wreaks of straight up manipulation.


X likely put him up to it.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Dude, I dont know about your relationship with your ex brother in law.
> 
> But that wreaks of straight up manipulation.


I don't think so. Her relationship with her brother has been rocky and infrequent. They both have similar issues. She rarely reaches out to him. 

He and I have a FB relationship only. Really like the guy, and we've been in contact here and there since Dday with little weirdness.

I really think he just has no idea what to do and probably triggering crap about his mom too. He's still in limbo there, cutting her off then going back, repeat.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Hmm. Doctor, maybe? I once called my brother's shrink cos he kept talking about suicide. He was furious, but apparently she helped him not do it.


I could send him contact info for her IC.


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> Just got a message from X's brother.
> 
> "Z man, sis is doing like really really really really bad .. idk what to do."
> 
> Z - I hate to see her doing bad. Truly breaks my heart. But she fired me, and I need to move on for me and D7. I know that you just being there to listen means a lot to her. But you can't fix it either. She needs to pick herself up.


Sadly, you could see this coming a mile away...

But good to know that X's family is now aware. 

And if that was an effort to manipulate by BIL, I think you swatted that one back in their court to deal with. 

Do you think the X is going to ultimately follow you and D7 to Utah?


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I could send him contact info for her IC.


That's the right path.


----------



## zillard

XBIL - She fired you? She just told me she's losing her job... 

Idk man... like im listening as much as I can and trying to help. But idk... if shes doing what mom does.. or if shes just not doing well.. either way, it just feels like theres no control .. it scares me man.

Z - She didn't want to be married anymore. I tried to get her back. She refused. So I gave her what she wanted.

If you think she may be a danger to herself, she has a therapist you could call at ...


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> Do you think the X is going to ultimately follow you and D7 to Utah?


If she gets out of her rut, I think she will. 

If not, the rut will get very deep. Possibly 6ft. 

But if she pulls a hail mary between now and move date... I know it won't be about me. It will be about self preservation.


----------



## zillard

Wow, this sh!t is triggering me hard today. 

I feel so incredibly bad for her. She must feel so terrified, isolated, worthless and alone. Part of me wants nothing more than to hug her and tell her everything will be ok. 

And that is alright. That exists. It is a part of me. I have to accept it. It is ok to have sympathy. Because I do care about her. 

But that would not fix her, only comfort her temporarily. It would allow little Z to feel better (for a moment), while robbing her of a great opportunity to become stronger. 

She may choose not to do that. It would be very sad and unfortunate, but it would not be on me. 

I am allowing her to have her own path, rather than forcing her to follow mine. 

Hard to see her stumble. But it is inevitable, for her path is overgrown with weeds due to being neglected for too long. 

As is mine. But I have the tools to clear my path. 

And I really like it here!


----------



## Mavash.

Z I know you meant well but talking to the BIL is what got you.

I had to set boundaries that I would no longer listen to the tragedies involving my family.

My rule was unless it directly affected me I didn't want to hear it.

Period end of story.

No good ever came from me listening to the drama that is my estranged family.

In fact sometimes it was so bad it would take me days weeks even to find my center again.

I'm glad you are moving.


----------



## hope4family

No real words can comfort these triggers. 

Except for Empathy. I have a lot of that to give you.


----------



## zillard

That is an excellent point Mav. Thank you.

Removing BIL from my FB is now on the table. When we do talk it is about her. As BILs, not as friends. 

But I want to be still before I decide to do that.


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> But if she pulls a hail mary between now and move date... I know it won't be about me. It will be about self preservation.


You know her far better than we do Z, but I don't know if I agree with this 100%. I find some eerie similarities between your X and Gutpunch's W. Your X pretty clearly has a chemical/alcohol dependency problem. That, combined with a helping of childhood trauma and this is the kind of $hit person you wind up with. 

And I realize that she fired you and she isn't your problem any more. 




zillard said:


> Wow, this sh!t is triggering me hard today.
> 
> I feel so incredibly bad for her. She must feel so terrified, isolated, worthless and alone. Part of me wants nothing more than to hug her and tell her everything will be ok.
> 
> And that is alright. That exists. It is a part of me. I have to accept it. It is ok to have sympathy. Because I do care about her.
> 
> But that would not fix her, only comfort her temporarily. It would allow little Z to feel better (for a moment), while robbing her of a great opportunity to become stronger.
> 
> She may choose not to do that. It would be very sad and unfortunate, but it would not be on me.
> 
> I am allowing her to have her own path, rather than forcing her to follow mine.
> 
> Hard to see her stumble. But it is inevitable, for her path is overgrown with weeds due to being neglected for too long.
> 
> As is mine. But I have the tools to clear my path.
> 
> And I really like it here!


I can see this and I am not sure what to tell you, Mr. used-to-be-mister-fixit. 

My gut is telling me that she needs rehab. Maybe I'm wrong...


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> You know her far better than we do Z, but I don't know if I agree with this 100%. I find some eerie similarities between your X and Gutpunch's W. Your X pretty clearly has a chemical/alcohol dependency problem. That, combined with a helping of childhood trauma and this is the kind of $hit person you wind up with.





Tron said:


> My gut is telling me that she needs rehab. Maybe I'm wrong...


IC has recommended inpatient trauma treatment. She has refused multiple times.

That would be a good step.


----------



## zillard

Scheduled a hair cut in an hour. 

That plus the shampoo and head massage are always relaxing.


----------



## Awakening2012

zillard said:


> Just got a message from X's brother.
> 
> "Z man, sis is doing like really really really really bad .. idk what to do."
> 
> Z - I hate to see her doing bad. Truly breaks my heart. But she fired me, and I need to move on for me and D7. I know that you just being there to listen means a lot to her. But you can't fix it either. She needs to pick herself up.


[Applause] Well handled!

:scratchhead: I agree, it's not your problem, but I don't get it. How is it she's doing so bad, when she's getting what she wanted?


----------



## zillard

Awakening2012 said:


> :scratchhead: I agree, it's not your problem, but I don't get it. How is it she's doing so bad, when she's getting what she wanted?


Often times what we ask for and what we want are not the same thing. 

It can be hard when fantasies dissolve and reality sets in.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Often times what we ask for and what we want are not the same thing.
> 
> It can be hard when fantasies dissolve and reality sets in.












Just can't imagine how such a well-thought out plan could go so far off the tracks.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Just can't imagine how such a well-thought out plan could go so far off the tracks.


Thank you Conrad. I just laughed out loud.


----------



## ReGroup

zillard said:


> Often times what we ask for and what we want are not the same thing.
> 
> It can be hard when fantasies dissolve and reality sets in.


You mean the solution to the problem isn't leaving the BS (who's at fault for everything)?


----------



## Awakening2012

zillard said:


> Often times what we ask for and what we want are not the same thing.
> 
> It can be hard when fantasies dissolve and reality sets in.


I take it you wouldn't want her back under any circumstances at this point? I've seen some of this peculiar behavior with my STBXH (he's the walker who did not want to attempt mending the marriage, but he went through apparently untold prolonged aguish -- after a year of flip-flopping, ALL THE WHILE REFUSING MC, only doing IC, he has filed and says there will be acourt date by end of May). If the spouse that dumped us is so torn up, why don't they try harder for R? I guess they are just too conflicted and messed up and don't know what they want -- or all of the above.


----------



## zillard

Awakening2012 said:


> I take it you wouldn't want her back under any circumstances at this point? I've seen some of this peculiar behavior with my STBXH (he's the walker who did not want to attempt mending the marriage, but he went through apparently untold prolonged aguish -- after a year of flip-flopping, ALL THE WHILE REFUSING MC, only doing IC, he has filed and says there will be acourt date by end of May). If the spouse that dumped us is so torn up, why don't they try harder for R? I guess they are just too conflicted and messed up and don't know what they want -- or all of the above.


...and stubborn and afraid. Mostly afraid.

Under any circumstances? I couldn't say. 

Today? No!


----------



## hope4family

Taking her back same day just wouldn't be you "Z". 

If you entertain it at all, it would have to be with a lot of meditated thought. 

On top of that, what about Tiger. Be careful for that triangle in the future. Solidify your emotions all the more so.


----------



## GutPunch

She is eerily similar to my WW. She has realized that Z is not what's wrong with the world. Now she doesn't know what her problem is. Until she gets real help for her problems addiction, childhood trauma there really is nothing Z can do but enable her.

I know this is painful Z but what are you supposed to do? Go give her a hug? Take her back? You are helping by not reacting. IF she calls and asks you to take her to inpatient therapy. That's when I helped. Where's your line?


----------



## Tron

Mavash. said:


> Z I know you meant well but talking to the BIL is what got you.
> 
> I had to set boundaries that I would no longer listen to the tragedies involving my family.
> 
> My rule was unless it directly affected me I didn't want to hear it.
> 
> Period end of story.
> 
> No good ever came from me listening to the drama that is my estranged family.
> 
> In fact sometimes it was so bad it would take me days weeks even to find my center again.
> 
> I'm glad you are moving.


You know Mav, while I appreciate that not listening to the drama worked for you with your estranged family, you had a choice about whether they would have an impact on you, your H or your kids. If you stayed away from the toxic family they couldn't impact you one way or the other. You were protecting your own.

Z's situation is a bit different because his X is the mother of his daughter. You cannot deny that the past week or two life has appeared to get progressively worse and worse for the X, so something catastrophic is not outside the realm of possibility. If X winds up in a grave 2 weeks or 2 months from now that WILL certainly have a negative impact on D7. 

If Z feels compelled to assist his BIL then for this very reason he should. Maybe it is just semantics to you but I see a fundamental difference between helping BIL if he can for the benefit of D7, and codependent little Z poking his head out from under the covers.

Z is moving to Utah regardless and NOT taking her back...at least not now and not this way.


----------



## hope4family

Tron said:


> You know Mav, while I appreciate that not listening to the drama worked for you with your estranged family, you had a choice about whether they would have an impact on you, your H or your kids. If you stayed away from the toxic family they couldn't impact you one way or the other. You were protecting your own.
> 
> Z's situation is a bit different because his X is the mother of his daughter. You cannot deny that the past week or two life has appeared to get progressively worse and worse for the X, so something catastrophic is not outside the realm of possibility. If X winds up in a grave 2 weeks or 2 months from now that WILL certainly have a negative impact on D7.
> 
> If Z feels compelled to assist his BIL then for this very reason he should. Maybe it is just semantics to you but I see a fundamental difference between helping BIL if he can for the benefit of D7, and codependent little Z poking his head out from under the covers.
> 
> Z is moving to Utah regardless and NOT taking her back...at least not now and not this way.


A good point. 

But I learn more towards agreeing with Mav. 

Z isn't weak if he can't do this because it only causes him to trigger. 

Also, from personal experience. In-laws tend to "reach" for control using the spouse, the child, themselves or even what you are going through. 

All in an effort to get you to "talk it over."


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Taking her back same day just wouldn't be you "Z".
> 
> If you entertain it at all, it would have to be with a lot of meditated thought.
> 
> On top of that, what about Tiger. Be careful for that triangle in the future. Solidify your emotions all the more so.


One thing I've learned as a bs is to never say never. People are capable of all sorts of things in the right circumstances. Positive too. 

I have no idea what the future will bring. I am not holding my breath and waiting for x. 

Right now she is a mess and no good for me. Very little good for d. I enjoy seeing tiger and will continue. With honesty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

GutPunch said:


> She is eerily similar to my WW. She has realized that Z is not what's wrong with the world. Now she doesn't know what her problem is. Until she gets real help for her problems addiction, childhood trauma there really is nothing Z can do but enable her.
> 
> I know this is painful Z but what are you supposed to do? Go give her a hug? Take her back? You are helping by not reacting. IF she calls and asks you to take her to inpatient therapy. That's when I helped. Where's your line?


Z,

I guess this is what I am concerned about. Gutpunch's W was not so stubborn that she did not make that phone call. I am thinking your X may very well be that stubborn. 

She has been trying to impress you and seek your approval for months now and doing nothing but tripping over her own feet. It has been like 3 Stooges meets Jerry Lewis. "*Epic Fail*"...is the perfect description of her bungling efforts over the past few months. 

A hug? You are right, it won't do her any good. Short term happy .. then nothing, back to the same ole rut.

Take her back? That isn't going to work. You're done enabling her, saving her, fixing her, etc. 

If BIL has asked for some help...maybe you can explore this a little more. What does he have in mind? Whatever it is, BIL needs to run the show IMO; you are there for support. Your X probably wouldn't respond positively to anything you put forth anyway. 


And H4F, if Z can't in good conscience do anything here because of what she did to him, their history, triggers, or whatever, then he simply can't.


----------



## Conrad

When I was dating women during our separation, I told them that what I really wanted was Janie. Pretty much all of them knew the score and no one really objected to any of it.

Of course, they knew I was looking for fun and companionship.

When Janie told me she wanted "us" - and meant it - she asked for no contact with those female friends.

She got it - immediately.

They were gracious about it, as we'd been straight with each other all along.

People gravitate towards authenticity.

When DeMello says, "The problem is rarely where we think it is"... he's 100% right.

I used to nag Janie about going to therapy.

I couldn't care less if she attends another session now. That's not on me whatsoever.


----------



## Lifescript

Z, 

Do nothing.


----------



## Conrad

Lifescript said:


> Z,
> 
> Do nothing.


Script,

What if X wants to have "a talk"?


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



Conrad said:


> Script,
> 
> What if X wants to have "a talk"?


Nope. No more talking.


----------



## Tron

Lifescript said:


> Nope. No more talking.


Well allright Script!!! Good answer!!!

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

:woohoo::woohoo:


----------



## Tron

Conrad said:


> I used to nag Janie about going to therapy.
> 
> I couldn't care less if she attends another session now. That's not on me whatsoever.


Of course not, you are her therapist now.


----------



## zillard

I went and got a haircut. It was soothing as expected. Such a little thing but got me back to where I need to be. 

As is the nature of things, that is when more things happened. But I was in a good spot. 

I left the salon and went to pickup D, but was a little early. As I sat I got a text from X. 

X - D7's benefits are gone tomorrow. I was fired today. FYI.

Z - I'm sorry to hear that. Please let me know when you have a plan to work out insurance coverage. 

(She is required to provide coverage for D7)

D came out of the school excited to see me as usual. Happy about her day. Such a cutie. She is obviously feeling much better, which is great. 

We get in the car and I get a call from an unknown number. This is typical of work calls so I tell to be quiet and take the call. It was X's grandmother. 

XGM - Oh, hi Z. I was trying to reach X but dialed you instead. (hmm, possible but weird coincidence). 

We spoke for a bit. It was a good conversation. She wanted to clear the air regarding the advice she had given X before Dday. She explained that her intent was to try and keep us together and was cautioning X to be careful with her words in order to avoid saying something in a way that would hurt someone she loved. I acknowledged that I received it 3rd hand from X and had an issue due to that, but no longer was holding anything against her. She expressed her love and admiration for me, etc. 

She then went into her and her husband's health issues and said that's why she hadn't called me earlier. 

Z - I'm sorry to hear about that. I hope things get better for you. 

XGM - Thank you. And I hope things get better with you and X and D7. 

I'm not sure if this is concerted effort, but it definitely looks as if her family knows that I am the healthier one and they want to help X... through me. 

However, I am not the fix. If I was... none of this would be happening as lord knows I was fixing plenty before.


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> Z,
> 
> I guess this is what I am concerned about. Gutpunch's W was not so stubborn that she did not make that phone call. I am thinking your X may very well be that stubborn.
> 
> She has been trying to impress you and seek your approval for months now and doing nothing but tripping over her own feet. It has been like 3 Stooges meets Jerry Lewis. "*Epic Fail*"...is the perfect description of her bungling efforts over the past few months.
> 
> A hug? You are right, it won't do her any good. Short term happy .. then nothing, back to the same ole rut.
> 
> Take her back? That isn't going to work. You're done enabling her, saving her, fixing her, etc.
> 
> If BIL has asked for some help...maybe you can explore this a little more. What does he have in mind? Whatever it is, BIL needs to run the show IMO; you are there for support. Your X probably wouldn't respond positively to anything you put forth anyway.
> 
> And H4F, if Z can't in good conscience do anything here because of what she did to him, their history, triggers, or whatever, then he simply can't.


She is extremely stubborn. Too stubborn. I'm not ok with it. If she wants me back and can't say the words... sucks for her.

Even if she did say the words, action would need to happen before I would consider it, much less do it. 

I gave her a chance to convince me not to move. Deadline is past. Move is happening no matter what she does in the next week and a half. 

I can be stubborn too. And fully intend to be. With a clear purpose. Provide the best life that I can for D7.

XBIL has nothing in mind. He was looking to me for an easy fix.


----------



## zillard

As for X...

A. She wrecked her car. She's ok. Has a better one now (she told my mother on MD that her GM gave her a few grand to help with that.)

B. She lost her job. Big deal. Happens to people everyday. Find another one.

C. Her daughter is moving far away. Do something about it. 

A+B+C = not my problem 

But there is a real simple solution. 

Let's observe and see how good she is at math.


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> She is extremely stubborn. Too stubborn. I'm not ok with it. If she wants me back and can't say the words... sucks for her.
> 
> Even if she did say the words, action would need to happen before I would consider it, much less do it.


I wasn't suggesting that you should go back with her even if she wanted to. She needs to get well. She clearly isn't and her life is falling apart. Nothing you can do about that. 




zillard said:


> XBIL has nothing in mind. He was looking to me for an easy fix.


Well, I suppose there is an concerted and organized family effort under foot to gather you in to be her white knight. 

That's too bad. That's not your job any more. She fired you remember.  

I guess you could send your XBIL this Facebook link and tell him this is the guy they need to talk to:


----------



## zillard

lol.

Oh, I didn't think you were, Tron. Just confirming that she IS that stubborn.


----------



## turnera

Tron said:


> I guess you could send your XBIL this Facebook link and tell him this is the guy they need to talk to:


 VERY tempting...


----------



## Awakening2012

Hi Zillard- 

Begging your pardon, I have not been able to retrace it on your thred, though I'm sure it must be there. What is the legal status of your D? Is it finalized, or when will it be?

Thanks in advance for catching me up. 

You've been such an inspiration and shown so much growth and maturity in your handling of this whole tumlutuous process!

Big Props to You, A12


----------



## zillard

Awakening2012 said:


> Hi Zillard-
> 
> Begging your pardon, I have not been able to retrace it on your thred, though I'm sure it must be there. What is the legal status of your D? Is it finalized, or when will it be?
> 
> Thanks in advance for catching me up.
> 
> You've been such an inspiration and shown so much growth and maturity in your handling of this whole tumlutuous process!
> 
> Big Props to You, A12


No problem. I'm sure you aren't the only reader who wants a recap. 

Dday late october. I filed and she moved out days before xmas. Wait period ended valentines day. D papers stamped the week after.

She then asked for a chance to prove herself as she didn't want d7 and I to move (she gave me right to in the d). I gave her 6 weeks to convince me. She failed miserably. 

And continues to do so...


----------



## Awakening2012

zillard said:


> No problem. I'm sure you aren't the only reader who wants a recap.
> 
> Dday late october. I filed and she moved out days before xmas. Wait period ended valentines day. D papers stamped the week after.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, kind sir! So you are divorced already and she is now expressing regret and still wanting to re-engage? No, no, and no -- not for now! As you have said, never say never -- but you've got a great game plan, plus a new potential love interest, wich is awesome. You are properly and healthily moving on, and effecively detached for your XW. We can't read the future, but it looks bright for you and your daughter getting a new start back amongst your supportive family and loved ones. So proud of you, I know is has not been easy! You're a great example and inspiraition for many TAMers!

Best Wishes,- A12


----------



## zillard

Awakening2012 said:


> Thanks, kind sir! So you are divorced already and she is now expressing regret and still wanting to re-engage? No, no, and no -- not for now! As you have said, never say never -- but you've got a great game plan, plus a new potential love interest, wich is awesome. You are properly and healthily moving on, and effecively detached for your XW. We can't read the future, but it looks bright for you and your daughter getting a new start back amongst your supportive family and loved ones. So proud of you, I know is has not been easy! You're a great example and inspiraition for many TAMers!
> 
> Best Wishes,- A12


She has never once uttered a single word about R. But it has been clear to me for months that she has indeed wanted it. 

I chalk this up to her stubbornness. But it is much more than that. It the engulfment/abandonment fear. 

She does not feel worthy to be with me. That is not speculation, she has said that. Due to that self hatred and near non-existent self esteem, her fear of rejection is huge. She doesn't think she can handle me telling her no, so she said nothing. 

At many times I was completely convinced that if I ran to her apartment and told her she was forgiven, she would have moved back in. 

But I'm not ok with that. She broke it, she bought it. It's not mine to fix anymore. That would have only resulted in a false R.


----------



## Mavash.

Tron said:


> You know Mav, while I appreciate that not listening to the drama worked for you with your estranged family, you had a choice about whether they would have an impact on you, your H or your kids. If you stayed away from the toxic family they couldn't impact you one way or the other. You were protecting your own.
> 
> Z's situation is a bit different because his X is the mother of his daughter. You cannot deny that the past week or two life has appeared to get progressively worse and worse for the X, so something catastrophic is not outside the realm of possibility. If X winds up in a grave 2 weeks or 2 months from now that WILL certainly have a negative impact on D7.
> 
> If Z feels compelled to assist his BIL then for this very reason he should. Maybe it is just semantics to you but I see a fundamental difference between helping BIL if he can for the benefit of D7, and codependent little Z poking his head out from under the covers.
> 
> Z is moving to Utah regardless and NOT taking her back...at least not now and not this way.


I should clarify.

I set the boundary AFTER it was clear my family had ZERO intentions of doing anything other than self destruct and wallow.

I kept my conversations with family members neutral.

I also had a system in place to keep me informed (my husband) but protected me from triggering.

I was basically forward thinking with Z. I participated in MANY of these conversations before I realized they had to stop. 

They were completely pointless and they were upsetting me.

He may however be stronger than I am.


----------



## zillard

Mavash. said:


> I should clarify.
> 
> I set the boundary AFTER it was clear my family had ZERO intentions of doing anything other than self destruct and wallow.
> 
> I kept my conversations with family members neutral.
> 
> I also had a system in place to keep me informed (my husband) but protected me from triggering.
> 
> I was basically forward thinking with Z. I participated in MANY of these conversations before I realized they had to stop.
> 
> They were completely pointless and they were upsetting me.
> 
> He may however be stronger than I am.


There's nothing like a head massage to get you back on track. 

Currently I'm planning on keeping xbil on my facebook. We've only messaged back and forth a handful of times since X moved out. 

He's one of the only 2 people X reaches out to in times of crisis. 

If something happened to her while I live out of state I would likely find out from him or her GM (who won't last much longer). 

BUT, if things like today become regular and continue to trigger me I will step it up and cut him off.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> She is extremely stubborn. Too stubborn.


The word is defiant.

Even now.

With much less to lose, Janie proved to be much less defiant.

I'm not going to tell you she still isn't stubborn.

She is.

I don't know if you can go through what they've been through without being stubborn.

They've been lied to so many times.


----------



## zillard

RE: health insurance coverage for D7...

X - I have no plan. One doesn't expect to be fired when they have 100% accuracy and are better than others at their job. 

Z - Please let me know when you do.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> RE: health insurance coverage for D7...
> 
> X - I have no plan. One doesn't expect to be fired when they have 100% accuracy and are better than others at their job.
> 
> Z - Please let me know when you do.


No bail-outs.

She has the COBRA option.

18 months of coverage for company rates.


----------



## zillard

X- I'm trying to work it out. I have several pharmacists checking for me. XBIL is asking his pharmacy tech friends, and I'm searching on my own. 

X - For now you may have to add her to your plan. It appears that [her company] messed up and I've been paying for your health coverage continually. Since the divorce. 

Z - Not an option. And [her company's] mistakes are not my responsibility.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> X- I'm trying to work it out. I have several pharmacists checking for me. XBIL is asking his pharmacy tech friends, and I'm searching on my own.
> 
> X - For now you may have to add her to your plan. It appears that [her company] messed up and I've been paying for your health coverage continually. Since the divorce.
> 
> Z - Not an option. And [her company's] mistakes are not my responsibility.


First rate stuff.

According to our agreement, COBRA is the legally mandated option.


----------



## Conrad

Z,

I would imagine you've had some therapy since she dropped you. You may want to submit those copayments to X's insurance.


----------



## zillard

Explanation for the readers: MY company will not consider my X losing her job as a life changing event. It really is NOT an option.

X - Wow. 

X - Your understanding is mind boggling. 

X - I don't even know why I told you anything. You always react this way and always makes my fury come out. I've tried to hide it,b shut it down, but you bring it out. Congratulations.

Z - I'm sorry you feel that way. Updates on D7s insurance coverage are mandatory.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Z,
> 
> I would imagine you've had some therapy since she dropped you. You may want to submit those copayments to X's insurance.


Due to a billing error I haven't paid for my IC sessions for months. :smthumbup:


----------



## zillard

X - And the update is that she won't be covered tomorrow. 

Z - Please let me know when you have a plan to work out insurance coverage. 

Rinse. Lather. Repeat.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> X - And the update is that she won't be covered tomorrow.
> 
> Z - Please let me know when you have a plan to work out insurance coverage.
> 
> Rinse. Lather. Repeat.


This responsibility thing is going down hard.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> This responsibility thing is going down hard.


Even if adding to my plan was an option before open enrollment...

She. did. not. ask. 

Violation of boundary #1 on the list she has in her apartment.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Even if adding to my plan was an option before open enrollment...
> 
> She. did. not. ask.
> 
> Violation of boundary #1 on the list she has in her apartment.


Brother,

I see "rock bottom" dead ahead.

Turn your phone on vibrate tonight.

You don't even want to see it.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Brother,
> 
> I see "rock bottom" dead ahead.
> 
> Turn your phone on vibrate tonight.
> 
> You don't even want to see it.


Excellent suggestion. I'm turning it off altogether. 

Imagine if she found out I'll be out of state tomorrow night with Tiger.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Excellent suggestion. I'm turning it off altogether.
> 
> Imagine if she found out I'll be out of state tomorrow night with Tiger.


There would be a puff of greasy smoke rising over her dwelling.


----------



## zillard

Haha. Yes, you do have to laugh. 

For a minute I worried about d7 being with x tomorrow night while I'm gone. 

Then I remembered x's estranged bff (great woman) who is itchin for an excuse to show up at her apartment. 

Worry gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Sending X's old BFF a message now, asking if she is available in case of emergency.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Sending X's old BFF a message now, asking if she is available in case of emergency.


Tell her to bring an oxygen mask.


----------



## zillard

BFF is more than happy to step in if necessary. 

I will be gauging X's condition at drop off tomorrow. 

If I am not satisfied I will be taking D7 to BFFs instead. 

If all looks well, I will be giving D7 phone numbers to reach me and BFF.


----------



## zillard

Did some digging (and got some help in LAD) and it turns out her job loss does qualify for benefit change after all. 

Relieving as D7 does have health issues and I cannot rely on X.

Let's find out if she asks properly tomorrow at drop off without me bringing it up.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Did some digging (and got some help in LAD) and it turns out her job loss does qualify for benefit change after all.
> 
> Relieving as D7 does have health issues and I cannot rely on X.
> 
> Let's find out if she asks properly tomorrow at drop off without me bringing it up.


Makes sense.

You are sending her "some" money, correct?

You can always deduct it.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Makes sense.
> 
> You are sending her "some" money, correct?
> 
> You can always deduct it.


Nope. She should owe me child support. Minimal. Buck fifty. 

I waived it. 

I am responsible for 25% travel for visitation. Well... not anymore if I end up doing this.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Nope. She should owe me child support. Minimal. Buck fifty.
> 
> I waived it.
> 
> I am responsible for 25% travel for visitation. Well... not anymore if I end up doing this.


Just keep records.

She's not going to travel that much anyway - unless she does the laydown.

And, I'd say the odds are "finally" in favor of that.

Prepare yourself.


----------



## zillard

Our parenting plan is set with option to change yearly if both parties agree. So likely at first chance I'll nix the 25% travel and her insurance obligation. Further cut ties.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Our parenting plan is set with option to change yearly if both parties agree. So likely at first chance I'll nix the 25% travel and her insurance obligation. Further cut ties.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you internalizing what I'm telling you?

Or do you not want it to be true?


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Are you internalizing what I'm telling you?
> 
> Or do you not want it to be true?


That it is likely at the 1 year mark she will have actually moved closer and things will be much different? 

No, I hear you. 

My "make immaculate plans for the future in order to avoid the anxiety of the present" is kicking in.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> That it is likely at the 1 year mark she will have actually moved closer and things will be much different?
> 
> No, I hear you.
> 
> My "make immaculate plans for the future in order to avoid the anxiety of the present" is kicking in.


Good... her big excuse all along has been her job.

I don't even need to finish


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Good... her big excuse all along has been her job.
> 
> I don't even need to finish


A+B+C=


----------



## vi_bride04

Zillard, I just wanted to say that reading your first post to your most recent post is so inspirinng, even for me. You have come such a long way and seem so strong and confident with your decisions. You are there for your daughter and that is so admirable. Keep up the great work


----------



## zillard

vi_bride04 said:


> Zillard, I just wanted to say that reading your first post to your most recent post is so inspirinng, even for me. You have come such a long way and seem so strong and confident with your decisions. You are there for your daughter and that is so admirable. Keep up the great work


Thank you V. 

And let me say... WOW. 

I really do feel like such a different person than that guy that finally worked up the nerve to put up a post in November after reading for a month. 

Thank you TAM. 

My IC has asked me multiple times what I am doing outside of therapy to progress, and he's liked the progress he's seen. 

I told him about TAM. 

He said he will now recommend it to other patients. Score for TAM!


----------



## zillard

Ha. 

I sent Tiger a message earlier. Timed it for maximum effect.

Z - Airport. 24 hours. Do it.

She told me she was doing a happy dance. 

I told her to prove it. 

She actually had someone take a picture of her doing a happy dance in the middle of a crowded parking lot. 

:toast:


----------



## Lifescript

Z, 

Out of all the guys here. I feel you made the most progress in the shortest amount of time. Another member who is not posting anymore, Synthetic also made great progress in a short amount of time. 

You've done really good.


----------



## zillard

Second night in a row no bedtime call from x to D7. 

Second time d did not mention it. 

Unprecedented. 

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise. Again. 

I need to stop reading Palahniuk. He's such a weirdo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Odd job loss and Ds health coverage loss occur

right about countdown time to move

this may be a timed response and odds are as Conrad said

you will see a laydown

it is Xs only option

but you have already searched yourself for this situation

my ex hinted several times about a R but never asked

would I have accepted it? No but it was a start

I can relate to you feeling worse about the abandonment than any thing

I felt the same way in Nov.


----------



## catcalls

zillard said:


> Second night in a row no bedtime call from x to D7.
> 
> Second time d did not mention it.
> 
> Unprecedented.
> 
> I am Jack's complete lack of surprise. Again.
> 
> I need to stop reading Palahniuk. He's such a weirdo.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think she is fast approaching her bottom. really impressed with the way you handled the communications. why did she lose her job? 

i imagine she is sitting there hoping you will call because your daughter wants to talk to her and then she can unload her tale of woe on you. 

It is a shame (for both D and her) that your D has such low expectations for her and perhaps sees her mum as an immature and flighty person.


----------



## Chuck71

this is also the time upcoming where she will do something

extremely irrational ...... be on alert

everything is about D7 and Z


----------



## zillard

Dropped off d7. Beforehand I showed her a paper with phone number and told her where I was putting it in her bag. 

Told her if at anytime she wants to call me she can. She gave me a weird look at first but then looked a little relieved and smiled. 

On the way d told me that the a while ago she, x and Ringo went to the aquarium. I simply asked if she had fun. 

Pulled in to x's parking lot and x was taking out the trash. Up and about, which I did not expect. I Walked them in and said bye to d. 

D asked x if they were going anywhere. X said probably not cuz she doesn't have much money. 

D - yesterday was payday. 

X - yesterday was not. Yesterday was anything but payday for mom. 

I told d to have a good weekend and left. 

Now sitting at the airport waitin for my flight!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

Have a safe flight my brother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

The karma bus hit her, drove around the block and hit her again.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> The karma bus hit her, drove around the block and hit her again.


After she crashed into it head on.

Catcalls - she didn't say why she got fired. I'm guessing thursday night she didn't call d because she over did it with the pills and booze, missing work and the call. 

Rg - thanks bro. The flight will be ok. What awaits me on the ground will be even better 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Omg. Just got the weirdest message. 

A woman I've know since I was 16, who lives near my hometown, heard I was coming back... Single. 

She says she is looking for a house to buy and wants me and d7 to move in and be roommates. Wtf?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> Omg. Just got the weirdest message.
> 
> A woman I've know since I was 16, who lives near my hometown, heard I was coming back... Single.
> 
> She says she is looking for a house to buy and wants me and d7 to move in and be roommates. Wtf?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Holy smokes batman!

I heard that harems are allowed in Utah.


----------



## Conrad

Tron said:


> Holy smokes batman!
> 
> I heard that harems are allowed in Utah.


The home of Brigham Young?

I thought he invented them.


----------



## Chuck71

holy joseph smith!


----------



## zillard

Now that's quite the M.A.P.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

At the airport again about to fly home. 

Well... What will be home for a short week and a half. 

I'm looking forward to moving. Seeing the mountains again has me aching to pitch a tent in the woods.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Tiger gave me a stack of books to read:

The Four Agreements
The Mastery of Love
The Joy of Living
The Power of Now

She told me a week or so ago that she had a surprise for me. 

She purchased tickets for us to see Bob Dylan and Wilco this summer. 

:smthumbup:


----------



## Chuck71

you lucky @#%%%$$$%%


----------



## dscl

Love reading this thread, always good to see that things can work out.


----------



## warlock07

Zillard, you are doing fantastic. But I though I would point out something. I could be wrong, but asking her to make alternative arrangement for insurance the same day she lost her job, I think the situation could have been dealt with a lot better. You should have waited a few more days for that discussion IMO.


----------



## vi_bride04

You go, Z!


----------



## catcalls

warlock07 said:


> Zillard, you are doing fantastic. But I though I would point out something. I could be wrong, but asking her to make alternative arrangement for insurance the same day she lost her job, I think the situation could have been dealt with a lot better. You should have waited a few more days for that discussion IMO.


I respectfully disagree with this. because if they were still married, and if for eg she was a SAHM and he lost his job and consequently medical cover for D, you would expect that as responsible parents they would scramble together what they had and get some form of insurance arranged for D at the very least.

She is still a parent and Z has not asked all that is expected of her financially. she has a relatively easy ride in that sense. this is the one thing she provides and she must make it her top priority pretty much above all else. 

He in the meantime has a kid without insurance ( i presume) and that is a very risky place to be (as far as i understand about the US medical system). what if she needed medical care , he probably would be out of pocket for a big sum as she was not insured. he cannot ask X to pay as it is not in the settlement. and you cannot expect her to take responsibility for it as she has not shown any signs of being mature


----------



## zillard

catcalls said:


> I respectfully disagree with this. because if they were still married, and if for eg she was a SAHM and he lost his job and consequently medical cover for D, you would expect that as responsible parents they would scramble together what they had and get some form of insurance arranged for D at the very least.
> 
> She is still a parent and Z has not asked all that is expected of her financially. she has a relatively easy ride in that sense. this is the one thing she provides and she must make it her top priority pretty much above all else.
> 
> He in the meantime has a kid without insurance ( i presume) and that is a very risky place to be (as far as i understand about the US medical system). what if she needed medical care , he probably would be out of pocket for a big sum as she was not insured. he cannot ask X to pay as it is not in the settlement. and you cannot expect her to take responsibility for it as she has not shown any signs of being mature


You hit the nail on the head, cat. 

I am responsible for medical costs above and beyond insurance. If no insurance, that's quite a bill for me. 

Recently she has been ill. Recently X was in a car wreck where a spare tire went through the seat D7 sits in. Luckily she was not in the car, but just shows that unexpected things happen at any time. 

Coverage needs to be secured ASAP. 

As it is not my responsibility, I should not have had to question X. She should have been on it. 

I could have waited days to make it less stressful for her, absolutely. But her stress level is no longer my concern and this was her doing.

When she dropped off D7 last night we talked about it again, briefly. She was planning on getting a job ASAP and waiting until then. A lot of explaining from her... about how hard she is looking for work. Nothing about coverage in the meantime. 

So.. I am putting her on my plan. It is better for D and protects my wallet more so than no coverage. 

Z - I will put her on my plan. It is XXX every pay period. We need to work out compensation for that. 

X - Well I don't have any money. But I will.

Z - We can reevaluate the 25% travel. Nix both and call it even. 

X - Uhmmmm, I'll be getting a job soon. I can get you the money. Just not yet.

Z - I will put her on my plan. I will be keeping track. I will let you know.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> You hit the nail on the head, cat.
> 
> I am responsible for medical costs above and beyond insurance. If no insurance, that's quite a bill for me.
> 
> Recently she has been ill. Recently X was in a car wreck where a spare tire went through the seat D7 sits in. Luckily she was not in the car, but just shows that unexpected things happen at any time.
> 
> Coverage needs to be secured ASAP.
> 
> As it is not my responsibility, I should not have had to question X. She should have been on it.
> 
> I could have waited days to make it less stressful for her, absolutely. But her stress level is no longer my concern and this was her doing.
> 
> When she dropped off D7 last night we talked about it again, briefly. She was planning on getting a job ASAP and waiting until then. A lot of explaining from her... about how hard she is looking for work. Nothing about coverage in the meantime.
> 
> So.. I am putting her on my plan. It is better for D and protects my wallet more so than no coverage.
> 
> Z - I will put her on my plan. It is XXX every pay period. We need to work out compensation for that.
> 
> X - Well I don't have any money. But I will.
> 
> Z - We can reevaluate the 25% travel. Nix both and call it even.
> 
> X - Uhmmmm, I'll be getting a job soon. I can get you the money. Just not yet.
> 
> Z - I will put her on my plan. I will be keeping track. I will let you know.


It's a pattern that seems to repeat itself in every part of her life. 

I will get my schedule changed ASAP.
I will get time off for D ASAP.
I will get a new job ASAP.
I will get coverage for D ASAP.

Any of those ever work out? Not holding her accountable - as you are doing - would be enabling her.


----------



## Northern Monkey

Z is for Zen, as ever I find you an inspiration. I strive for that calm manner of dealing with my stbx and not engaging unless required but I'm not there yet.

My new thread will be largely about coping with interactions and practicalities like that i think.


----------



## zillard

More proof that she is too wrapped up in her own head to actively parent on an appropriate level (at least what I consider appropriate).

After she pulled a no show at the child psych last Monday, I put a post on the Cozi calendar/journal about the move day. I had asked the IC if it would be better for D7 to depart with the moving truck from my house, or X's apartment. 

Rather than provide me an answer the IC asked my thoughts (as a good therapist does). I believe it would be best to take D7 to her mom's on Saturday as planned, then my brothers and I can pack/load/clean the house while she is gone. Then we should pick up D7 at X's apartment. 

That way she can say goodbye to her bedroom and house while it is still intact. She won't have to come back and see an empty house, leaving her with good memories of her old house rather than one of an empty shell before moving away from her mother. 

The IC agreed. I put this all on Cozi. 

As she was leaving last night:

Z - Did you read my Cozi update about the day of the move?

X - I haven't checked Cozi.

Z - I can walk you out and talk to you about it (away from D). 

X - I will read it. 

A week and she had not asked about the session. After expressing concern about D7's cough on the phone, she still did not check Cozi to read the updates on her well being that I told her about. 

Because her decisions are not about her daughter. 

They are all about her.

Now do we think she will follow through on giving D7 a cell phone (a transitional object the child psych recommended D have before the move)?

I will give her until our last session with the child psych on Thursday. 

So... Friday I will be getting D a phone.


----------



## zillard

Z - D7's last day of school is Thursday, and it's a half day.

X - Well I probably won't have a shift Friday night. haha.

D - Am I coming to your house Friday? 

X - Well, I don't know. We'll see how it goes. Bye honey.

----

In my head I was thinking, forget about fvkin Friday night... what about Thursday night!? 

She doesn't have a job. Her daughter is leaving state early next week with no plans to see her until August. 

An extra night on Friday is only a maybe. Thursday wasn't even considered. 

Who is this girl?


----------



## Conrad

Northern Monkey said:


> Z is for Zen, as ever I find you an inspiration. I strive for that calm manner of dealing with my stbx and not engaging unless required but I'm not there yet.
> 
> My new thread will be largely about coping with interactions and practicalities like that i think.


It doesn't appear Z's ex is "happiernow" either.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> It doesn't appear Z's ex is "happiernow" either.


I'm not convinced she ever has been happy.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I'm not convinced she ever has been happy.












Who could have ever guessed?


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> I'm not convinced she ever has been happy.


She doesn't know how to be.


----------



## Northern Monkey

I find that popping up in so many threads truly amusing!

Helps me realise that while yes I was/am, as mad ass a bag of eels, i am not the only one.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> She doesn't know how to be.


When I look at her now I see a terrified little girl stuck in a womans body. 

My delusion is gone. 

Because when I see myself I can see my own frightened little Z. The runt. 

But standing beside him is big Z. Bending down to give that little guy a high five.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

This goes back to the importance of observing. 50,000 feet. Stepping back. 

Often DeMello is repeated here. When we see through ourselves we will see through everyone. 

This concept can be found in many other places as well. 

The 4 Agreements teaches to not take anything personally. Not anything. If we do this we can see that the actions of others are almost always about them. Not us. At all. 

This goes for positive and negative actions. 

If someone tells you that they love you, it is not about you. It is about what they are feeling. If we take that personally we make our happiness dependent on their expressions of affection. 

Yes, it is nice to hear those things. But if we are still, we already have love. From within. So thank you for telling me that. It is nice thing for you to say and I'm glad you feel that way.

But we already know that we are worthy of love. Which puts us in a better place to receive it from others in a healthier manner... with no strings. We can just be thankful that someone else sees what we already know. 

Cool. Now we are on the same page. And if their feelings ever change... it's unfortunate for them. But our own love does not need to change with it.

If someone gets angry at you, it is not about you. It is about them. Their fear. If we take that personally it is out of fear. Fear that they may not love us. Fear that they may leave, etc. If we let go of our fear, then their anger has no power over us. 

We are under no obligation to do something we don't like in order to help them get rid of their anger. Because we can't. Their anger comes from their fear. Which we do not, can not, and never could control. 

It is not personal.


----------



## northernlights

Zillard, I have a question for you. I see so many similarities between your X and my H, and I'm wondering how you trust your X enough to parent your D without you around. For example, if my H crashed a car like your X did, I wouldn't let him drive my kids around again. 

I'm asking not to criticize your choice, but because my inability to trust him with our kids is a huge part of why I won't divorce him. At least, yet. I do question whether I'm too uptight about risk, but, well, you don't get a second chance with death.

What's your thought process there? Do you just accept that your D's relationship and time with her mother is something you can't control?


----------



## Ceegee

:allhail:



zillard said:


> This goes back to the importance of observing. 50,000 feet. Stepping back.
> 
> Often DeMello is repeated here. When we see through ourselves we will see through everyone.
> 
> This concept can be found in many other places as well.
> 
> The 4 Agreements teaches to not take anything personally. Not anything. If we do this we can see that the actions of others are almost always about them. Not us. At all.
> 
> This goes for positive and negative actions.
> 
> If someone tells you that they love you, it is not about you. It is about what they are feeling. If we take that personally we make our happiness dependent on their expressions of affection.
> 
> Yes, it is nice to hear those things. But if we are still, we already have love. From within. So thank you for telling me that. It is nice thing for you to say and I'm glad you feel that way.
> 
> But we already know that we are worthy of love. Which puts us in a better place to receive it from others in a healthier manner... with no strings. We can just be thankful that someone else sees what we already know.
> 
> Cool. Now we are on the same page. And if their feelings ever change... it's unfortunate for them. But our own love does not need to change with it.
> 
> If someone gets angry at you, it is not about you. It is about them. Their fear. If we take that personally it is out of fear. Fear that they may not love us. Fear that they may leave, etc. If we let go of our fear, then their anger has no power over us.
> 
> We are under no obligation to do something we don't like in order to help them get rid of their anger. Because we can't. Their anger comes from their fear. Which we do not, can not, and never could control.
> 
> It is not personal.


----------



## zillard

northernlights said:


> Zillard, I have a question for you. I see so many similarities between your X and my H, and I'm wondering how you trust your X enough to parent your D without you around. *For example, if my H crashed a car like your X did, I wouldn't let him drive my kids around again.*
> 
> I'm asking not to criticize your choice, but because my inability to trust him with our kids is a huge part of why I won't divorce him. At least, yet. I do question whether I'm too uptight about risk, but, well, you don't get a second chance with death.
> 
> What's your thought process there? Do you just accept that your D's relationship and time with her mother is something you can't control?


This is fear. 

People crash cars everyday. People die in those wrecks. I know that all too well due to my two deceased brothers. 

Some do it intentionally. Any driver on the road could crash into me by accident or on purpose at any time. We all know there are crazy/incompetent/drunk people about. 

But that is out of my hands. So I'm going to keep driving and enjoy the music and scenery. Even though there is risk. 

I can not protect my daughter when she is with her mother. I can not force my X to do, or not do, anything. Nor should I try to do so. 

I can do everything in my power to protect my daughter in ways that I can. Keeping her from her mother completely is not an option. 

So I kiss her goodbye. 
I make sure she can reach me. 
And I go back to the music and scenery.

We can not enjoy life if we are too busy worrying. 

Bad things do happen. Usually when we least expect them to. There will be plenty to do if/when something happens. No sense wasting good energy on something that has not.

Prepare. And then let go.


----------



## zillard

If X had been arrested for a DUI due to the wreck, more control would've been placed in my hands. 

But a wreck gives me no legal ground to do anything. Trying to use the incident to control what I can not would be futile, frustrating, and leave all parties feeling miserable. 

I choose not to be miserable.


----------



## Pbartender

_I must not fear. 
Fear is the mind-killer. 
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. 
I will face my fear. 
I will permit it to pass over me and through me. 
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing...
Only I will remain._


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> _I must not fear.
> Fear is the mind-killer.
> Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
> I will face my fear.
> I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
> And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
> Where the fear has gone there will be nothing...
> Only I will remain._


_Some thoughts have a certain sound. 
That being equivalent to a form.
Through sound and motion you will be able to
paralyze nerves
shatter bones
set fires
suffocate an enemy
or burst his organs_

Circle back to 4 Agreements. The power of the word. 

_All the magic you possess is based on your word. 
Your word is pure magic, and misuse of your word is black magic. _

Be impeccable with your word.


----------



## Northern Monkey

The Litany of Fear is a fave of mine. Have quoted it a time or too myself and read it regularly. Having lived a life of fear it is an amazing feeling.

As to the power of the word. I try but i also realise this is somewhere i have room for improvement too. I have allowed myself to slip from my word being my bond. Whatever justification i may have had. I can and will do better as I cannot say I am impeccable with it.


----------



## zillard

This reminded me of a message I made for one of the first shirts I ever airbrushed. 

My word is my honor.
My honor is my loyalty.
My loyalty is my life.


----------



## zillard

Northern Monkey said:


> As to the power of the word. I try but i also realise this is somewhere i have room for improvement too. I have allowed myself to slip from my word being my bond. Whatever justification i may have had. I can and will do better as I cannot say I am impeccable with it.


Nobody is perfect. Which is great. 

There is always room for improvement. 

Improvement feels good.


----------



## northernlights

zillard said:


> This is fear.
> 
> People crash cars everyday. People die in those wrecks. I know that all too well due to my two deceased brothers.
> 
> Some do it intentionally. Any driver on the road could crash into me by accident or on purpose at any time. We all know there are crazy/incompetent/drunk people about.
> 
> But that is out of my hands. So I'm going to keep driving and enjoy the music and scenery. Even though there is risk.
> 
> I can not protect my daughter when she is with her mother. I can not force my X to do, or not do, anything. Nor should I try to do so.
> 
> I can do everything in my power to protect my daughter in ways that I can. Keeping her from her mother completely is not an option.
> 
> So I kiss her goodbye.
> I make sure she can reach me.
> And I go back to the music and scenery.
> 
> We can not enjoy life if we are too busy worrying.
> 
> Bad things do happen. Usually when we least expect them to. There will be plenty to do if/when something happens. No sense wasting good energy on something that has not.
> 
> Prepare. And then let go.


I disagree that that's fear. I think it's adjusting for unnecessary risk. If I can do the driving just as easily as my H, than letting him drive is unnecessarily risky. Of course, if we're both not available and he has to drive, then such is life. I suppose we find ourselves in that situation far less often than most people since my H works from home.


----------



## zillard

Went to pick up D from school. Found an open parking space. Noticed it was next to single mom who was again rocking out in her minivan with the window down. So I threw her the metal devil horns hand gesture as I parked. 

We spoke again through our windows.

SM - where have YOU been?

Z - oh I've been AROUND. 

Told her I was moving soon. She asked if d was going too. Then if x was. Turns out she was raised by her dad and loved it. Turned out fine. 

Picked up d and returned to the car before single mom. As I pulled away she ran to my window and said next time she needs to get my digits so we can talk. 

D was not impressed. 

D- what, do you know her now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Went to pick up D from school. Found an open parking space. Noticed it was next to single mom who was again rocking out in her minivan with the window down. So I threw her the metal devil horns hand gesture as I parked.
> 
> We spoke again through our windows.
> 
> SM - where have YOU been?
> 
> Z - oh I've been AROUND.
> 
> Told her I was moving soon. She asked if d was going too. Then if x was. Turns out she was raised by her dad and loved it. Turned out fine.
> 
> Picked up d and returned to the car before single mom. As I pulled away she ran to my window and said next time she needs to get my digits so we can talk.
> 
> D was not impressed.
> 
> D- what, do you know her now?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She only wants Dad to date the very best


----------



## Ceegee

Conrad said:


> She only wants Dad to date the very best


And, as far as D is concerned, I don't think even dear old mom qualifies anymore.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> She only wants Dad to date the very best


It's funny. She really doesn't like her. 

More than a few times we've been standing in front of the school talking when the kids came out. The last time that happened D piped up. 

D - Why is SHE always talking to you?

Sharp contrast compared to when Tiger made an appearance for a bbq. 

After hellos D grabbed her hand and pulled her upstairs to show off her room. 

It's not looks either, as single mom has hair and complexion similar to X. Tiger much different. 

Or maybe it is the looks, Ceegee.


----------



## turnera

Children are extremely good judges of character.


----------



## zillard

turnera said:


> Children are extremely good judges of character.


They really are. My D7 is spot on.

I haven't taken single mom to the next level. Why?

Red flags. 

She's been single since she split with her ex when her DS was a newborn. The DS is now in second grade. She plans to still be single when her DS turns 18 so she can move away. Mostly definitely want no roots whatsoever.

When I see her at the school, she bounces instantly from single dad to single dad like a steely in a pinball machine. Flirty ADHD type with no off switch. Her minivan is a POS, broken down and ragged. But she's hot. 

Does that make up for everything else? No.

I tell her I'm moving soon. Now she's running to my window wanting digits. Clearly has one thing on her mind. And one thing only. 

Not my bag.

Now, T... 

Question for all you silly nice guy codependent men out there (like myself).

How would you respond to this compliment?

"I hope you know how wonderful you are."

Ready go. One line. What is it?


----------



## catcalls

zillard said:


> Question for all you silly nice guy codependent men out there (like myself).
> 
> How would you respond to this compliment?
> 
> "I hope you know how wonderful you are."
> 
> Ready go. One line. What is it?


'oh yes, of course i do,' said in a light tone but clearly not in a jokey way


----------



## catcalls

zillard said:


> Z - D7's last day of school is Thursday, and it's a half day.
> 
> X - Well I probably won't have a shift Friday night. haha.
> 
> D - Am I coming to your house Friday?
> 
> X - Well, I don't know. We'll see how it goes. Bye honey.
> 
> ----
> 
> In my head I was thinking, forget about fvkin Friday night... what about Thursday night!?
> 
> She doesn't have a job. Her daughter is leaving state early next week with no plans to see her until August.
> 
> An extra night on Friday is only a maybe. Thursday wasn't even considered.
> 
> Who is this girl?


it is really a bit tragic for her and to some extent for your D. it just reinforces your decision to move. I imagine that your D will have some good female interaction and support from your family, which will compensate her lack of a mother in everyday life.


----------



## zillard

catcalls said:


> it is really a bit tragic for her and to some extent for your D. it just reinforces your decision to move. I imagine that your D will have some good female interaction and support from your family, which will compensate her lack of a mother in everyday life.


Oh yes. Grandma and 6 aunts. Ready and willing to do anything. One of my sisters takes her kids to a petting zoo/rides/orchards place twice a week in the summer and she gets season passes. She signed up for an extra child on her pass without me even asking. 

I plan to give another sister a department card to take d clothes shopping periodically too. 

Plus the time with her little cousins and camping with me and her uncles. She'll have a blast!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

catcalls said:


> 'oh yes, of course i do,' said in a light tone but clearly not in a jokey way


Yes.

"Oh, I do."

Followed up with...

Nothing. 

I'll compliment when I feel like it, and when I do... oh, I will!

But not because you did.


----------



## Northern Monkey

I was recently told by a friend of B I'm a lucky man. In the past I would have been all gushy and stuff.

Instead I just said nah, she's the lucky one.

Yeah I would have gone with "Yes. Yes I do."


----------



## catcalls

zillard said:


> Yes.
> 
> "Oh, I do."
> 
> Followed up with...
> 
> Nothing.
> 
> I'll compliment when I feel like it, and when I do... oh, I will!
> 
> But not because you did.



so if they really meant the compliment, they would be fine with your response. if they were merely fishing for a reciprocal compliment, then you are just telling them no, i dont do that.

between all your fans at TAM and all the women folk around you, you are getting a lot of compliments, Z :smthumbup:


----------



## Bullwinkle

Z

I think your plan to be nearer family to be a great one. Especially sisters, especially with a daughter. We can all be father of the year but that contribution women (other than your X) can make in your daughter's life is priceless.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Question for all you silly nice guy codependent men out there (like myself).
> 
> How would you respond to this compliment?
> 
> "I hope you know how wonderful you are."
> 
> Ready go. One line. What is it?


"Why wouldn't I?"


----------



## Chuck71

Z In some type of way, I.... like many, hoped your ex would break out of the zone and try to repair things. You left many opportunities out there and none were taken. She made efforts to have you be the fixer but she was the destroyer, therefore she is the fixer. It was sad in many ways things could not have been repaired. 

But the deplorable part was how she put anything from a new guy with a truck to a vagrant ahead of her relationship with daughter. Over the last couple months I was never ceased to be amazed at how epic her failures would be. I honestly hope you update us on her monumental meltdown after the reality sets in. 

How any mother could put co-workers, random dudes or booze / pills above their child is a little more than 'cracked in the cranium'. By chance, I wonder now that she was canned at work, will her 'super friends' still be stopping by and partying with her. No more co-workers stopping by, no more booze money, may be a short term dude named Ringo, Moonbeam or Tater will hide the sunlight but not for long.

When it happens it will resemble the person in Plato's The Cave


----------



## NXN

So addictive, that i read the whole thread today. 

My story is that I caught my girlfriend having an affair last week and confront her, but she didn't confessed until i have quoted some of the messages they were sending through internet. Sounds hard to believe, but until i found it, we had the greatest relationship ever. Great sex, great talks, fun time and lots of plans for us for the future. 

I'm a strong believer that these affair can happen even if the relationship is perfect. I think that it has a lot to do with ones confidence. When i met her, she was overweight. I gradually taught her how to eat, how to properly train and soon she got rid of the fat, but one major problem left. I know that she never felt sexy, even though i told her sometimes. I'm thinking that she needed the validation from someone else. So she got it...BUT... things escalated quickly.

After i told her that i will leave her, she came to my house and begged and cried like a slave not to dump her. She told me that it would destroy her (she's having a kid and going through a painful divorce). She did that for 3 hours. We both cried to the point of puking, but i was so dissapointed, that i still send her home. After that i entered in the NO-CONTACT mode, without even reading any of these forums. 

I did my best to ignore two of her non-consistent messages over the time, and here we are...1 week of ignorance and still going. I firmly believe that if she truly loves me, she will do anything in her power to have me again. If not, i didn't lose anything. I'm 23 and she's 37. Man, i'm suffering so much right now, because loialty is my trademark and i wouldnt't give it for anything.

Sorry for disturbing here, but i was too attached to thread. I tried my best to simplify, and if you have found errors, do not forget that i'm from Romania. Much love...


----------



## zillard

catcalls said:


> so if they really meant the compliment, they would be fine with your response. if they were merely fishing for a reciprocal compliment, then you are just telling them no, i dont do that.


Old Z would have done even worse. 

"do you really think so? why"

unsure. fish for more in order to believe it.

bleh.


----------



## zillard

NXN said:


> So addictive, that i read the whole thread today.
> 
> My story is that I caught my girlfriend having an affair last week and confront her, but she didn't confessed until i have quoted some of the messages they were sending through internet. Sounds hard to believe, but until i found it, we had the greatest relationship ever. Great sex, great talks, fun time and lots of plans for us for the future.
> 
> I'm a strong believer that these affair can happen even if the relationship is perfect. I think that it has a lot to do with ones confidence. When i met her, she was overweight. I gradually taught her how to eat, how to properly train and soon she got rid of the fat, but one major problem left. I know that she never felt sexy, even though i told her sometimes. I'm thinking that she needed the validation from someone else. So she got it...BUT... things escalated quickly.
> 
> After i told her that i will leave her, she came to my house and begged and cried like a slave not to dump her. She told me that it would destroy her (she's having a kid and going through a painful divorce). She did that for 3 hours. We both cried to the point of puking, but i was so dissapointed, that i still send her home. After that i entered in the NO-CONTACT mode, without even reading any of these forums.
> 
> I did my best to ignore two of her non-consistent messages over the time, and here we are...1 week of ignorance and still going. I firmly believe that if she truly loves me, she will do anything in her power to have me again. If not, i didn't lose anything. I'm 23 and she's 37. Man, i'm suffering so much right now, because loialty is my trademark and i wouldnt't give it for anything.
> 
> Sorry for disturbing here, but i was too attached to thread. I tried my best to simplify, and if you have found errors, do not forget that i'm from Romania. Much love...


Welcome NXN. 

Sorry you are here, but glad you made it. 

Good job on the no contact. How long have you been together?


----------



## Chuck71

NXN I see you like the older women too 8>)


----------



## hope4family

catcalls said:


> so if they really meant the compliment, they would be fine with your response. if they were merely fishing for a reciprocal compliment, *then you are just telling them no, i dont do that.*
> 
> between all your fans at TAM and all the women folk around you, you are getting a lot of compliments, Z :smthumbup:


Note to men. 

Women love this. 

I gave my ex-WAY too many compliments. Why not though I guess, I was in love? 

Puke. 

Examples:
When she was in shape. Beautiful. 

When she was overweight. Beautiful. 

When she got back into shape. Proud of her, but still beautiful. 

They say they want a man who desires them for their inner beauty. Yet, i'm still WAITING to find a woman who actually still desires their man no matter what. 

In other words, they may not want a push pull for sex, but they want it for attraction. They need to feel like they are doing it "to keep their guy". 

Maybe i'm jaded because when my ex-wife left me I found all the posts on her facebook profile from the guy she moved in with saying how great she looked. 

When I found those, all those nights she would tell me I could get "it" better somewhere else. Me telling her, I am happy with whatever way I get her. Because I love and choose her. 

I ask myself, was I being a man when I said that? Or a beta?


----------



## NXN

zillard said:


> Welcome NXN.
> 
> Sorry you are here, but glad you made it.
> 
> Good job on the no contact. How long have you been together?


Two years in July. Thanks for the reply...


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Z In some type of way, I.... like many, hoped your ex would break out of the zone and try to repair things. You left many opportunities out there and none were taken. She made efforts to have you be the fixer but she was the destroyer, therefore she is the fixer. It was sad in many ways things could not have been repaired.


I have felt this way too. But that is changing. As I get to know myself better I see that I can be happiernow, without her. Absent a drastic transformation. Being with someone with an expectation that they will change is unfair to both parties. 

The shared values, shared interests, etc just aren't there. Come to think of it, many of the values that I hold dear were never shared... the large family being one of them. 

I ran from my family for a long time and lied to myself to stay away. She never had much of a family experience and so didn't value it much. Clearly. 

That likely won't change. 




Chuck71 said:


> But the deplorable part was how she put anything from a new guy with a truck to a vagrant ahead of her relationship with daughter. Over the last couple months I was never ceased to be amazed at how epic her failures would be. I honestly hope you update us on her monumental meltdown after the reality sets in.
> 
> How any mother could put co-workers, random dudes or booze / pills above their child is a little more than 'cracked in the cranium'. By chance, I wonder now that she was canned at work, will her 'super friends' still be stopping by and partying with her. No more co-workers stopping by, no more booze money, may be a short term dude named Ringo, Moonbeam or Tater will hide the sunlight but not for long.
> 
> When it happens it will resemble the person in Plato's The Cave


She's doing what she knows. What she was taught. We all do that. 

She's becoming her mother, despite her hatred for her. That only reinforces her own self hatred. She will not be able to accept herself and love herself until she is ready to let go of the past and forgive her mother.

Likewise, I am becoming more like my parents. But I have more insight now at this stage in my life. Instead of being angry I can accept them as imperfect humans and focus on the good qualities and values that have helped me become who I am... and pass those down to my daughter while actively filtering out the rest.


----------



## zillard

NXN said:


> Two years in July. Thanks for the reply...


So what about you? What would you need from her in order to take her back?


----------



## Lifescript

Z, 

I was thinking about this a week or so ago: is it possible to truly be happy with a WW spouse even after they commit to the M, make changes? 

I feel I wouldn't be knowing what she did. I know you gave her opportunities to save the M. Had she done what she needed to do, do you think you would be in the middle of an R right now?


----------



## NXN

Chuck71 said:


> NXN I see you like the older women too 8>)


Matter of the fact, this is one of the main reasons i fell in love with her. I'm a web developer with alot of goals and dreams and i really tought that her maturity will help me to reach them faster and to both experience a great life together. I'm a type of guy that doesn't like drama and love carousels ( idiotic thing to constantly break-up and make-up), so i thought that she will be different from this girls my age. Man i was wrong... 

I think that people that love drama in their life are the same people that don't have dreams, hobbies, whatever. They are bored with themself and wasting too much time trying to get others attention.

The thing is that I caught her early in the affair, but i'm always thinking what would've been if it would take longer. I think that i will ignore her until she will beg again...


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> Z,
> 
> I was thinking about this a week or so ago: is it possible to truly be happy with a WW spouse even after they commit to the M, make changes?
> 
> I feel I wouldn't be knowing what she did. I know you gave her opportunities to save the M. Had she done what she needed to do, do you think you would be in the middle of an R right now?


Possible - yes, absolutely. But extremely difficult for a long time in order to avoid a repeat. 

As more time passes my standards and requirements increase (because I'm finding out what I really want in life and love), making it less and less likely. 

Before she moved out, I would have let her stay had she quit her job and agreed to full transparency. 

Before the D was finalized, I would have taken her back had she done those things + IC + MC. 

The +s keep piling up. Thankfully. 

I firmly believe that my personal progress would have greatly slowed, if not stopped, had I jumped into R with her. 

I'm really glad that I put off the move until now. I've learned a lot from my interactions with her. This situation has been a catalyst for growth and I'm thankful for that, even though it was unfortunate. 

Life if grey, not black nor white.


----------



## hope4family

Lifescript said:


> Z,
> 
> I was thinking about this a week or so ago: is it possible to truly be happy with a WW spouse even after they commit to the M, make changes?
> 
> I feel I wouldn't be knowing what she did. I know you gave her opportunities to save the M. Had she done what she needed to do, do you think you would be in the middle of an R right now?


Z not to answer your question. 

But yes it can happen. I have seen it thus far with my own eyes with family members. 

But, it wasn't easy, and still isn't for them many times.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



zillard said:


> Possible - yes, absolutely. But extremely difficult for a long time in order to avoid a repeat.
> 
> As more time passes my standards and requirements increase (because I'm finding out what I really want in life and love), making it less and less likely.
> 
> Before she moved out, I would have let her stay had she quit her job and agreed to full transparency.
> 
> Before the D was finalized, I would have taken her back had she done those things + IC + MC.
> 
> The +s keep piling up. Thankfully.
> 
> I firmly believe that my personal progress would have greatly slowed, if not stopped, had I jumped into R with her.
> 
> I'm really glad that I put off the move until now. I've learned a lot from my interactions with her. This situation has been a catalyst for growth and I'm thankful for that, even though it was unfortunate.
> 
> Life if grey, not black nor white.


Everything does happen for a reason. The standards and requirements keep going up because of what you said and also because of a healthy level of self-esteem. It's happening to me now.


----------



## NXN

zillard said:


> So what about you? What would you need from her in order to take her back?


I really want her to say she's sorry over and over again. I'm not a mean person, but i really wish her some miserable moments. I'm hoping that the guilt is killing her while she's at home. I don't want those feelings for the long term. I'm only hoping that she will learn a lesson. I do like that she didn't put the blame on me for one second. She admitted that was her fault, but she couldn't explain why she did it. Beside my assumptions, i needed an explanation from her.

I don't know if i really want her back. I love her with all my heart, but my senses are telling me that living a life in doubt is a wasted life. If this happened while we were happy, imagine when some hard times come. Imagine if i need to go in another country for one month for a job...

Edit: I helped her losing weight, hoping that she will gain some confidence in her. I know for a fact that bodybuilding changed my life alot. When i look in the mirror i consider myself sexy, which is extremely important, because i learned in time to love myself and i didn't need validation from anyone. That only made me more loyal to my girlfriend . I really wanted her to reach the same goal. It turned out to be a failure...


----------



## zillard

NXN said:


> I really want her to say she's sorry over and over again. I'm not a mean person, but i really wish her some miserable moments. I'm hoping that the guilt is killing her while she's at home. I don't want those feelings for the long term. I'm only hoping that she will learn a lesson. I do like that she didn't put the blame on me for one second. She admitted that was her fault, but she couldn't explain why she did it. Beside my assumptions, i needed an explanation from her.
> 
> I don't know if i really want her back. I love her with all my heart, but my senses are telling me that living a life in doubt is a wasted life. If this happened while we were happy, imagine when some hard times come. Imagine if i need to go in another country for one month for a job...
> 
> Edit: I helped her losing weight, hoping that she will gain some confidence in her. I know for a fact that bodybuilding changed my life alot. When i look in the mirror i consider myself sexy, which is extremely important, because i learned in time to love myself and i didn't need validation from anyone. That only made me more loyal to my girlfriend . I really wanted her to reach the same goal. It turned out to be a failure...


It seems like you have a healthy attitude about this. 

Her not blameshifting is a good sign. But don't compromise what you need. 

As she became more fit she likely got more attention from men that she wasn't used to receiving... and didn't know how to handle it because her self love wasn't up to par with her new physical beauty.


----------



## zillard

I've noticed something with D7. 

As the move approaches she is stressing more. Complaining of stomach aches. 

This morning she was eating breakfast. I was looking for her sun hat for her to take to school today as they are doing some things outside. She was suggesting places to look. 

When I couldn't find anywhere I mentioned that it may be at her mom's house. 

She then stopped eating and said she couldn't finish due to a stomach ache. 

No surprise, it seems talk of her mom/mom's place is a trigger for her. Time to be more careful about that. 

I grabbed a trucker hat of mine and sized it for her. She looked like a little [email protected]


----------



## NXN

zillard said:


> It seems like you have a healthy attitude about this.
> 
> Her not blameshifting is a good sign. But don't compromise what you need.
> 
> As she became more fit she likely got more attention from men that she wasn't used to receiving... and didn't know how to handle it because her self love wasn't up to par with her new physical beauty.


I will try and fix the problem with her, but only after she contacts me. If her pride is bigger than her love for me, then i really don't care, as i'm thinking that i already lost her.

If she's still in the FOG, then i will not try to disturb her, altough i have the weapons. I have all the conversations and the guy is married with a kid. Imagine how stupid she is if she's still in the fog, because no sane man will go through a divorce, lose his child and half of money over a 37 year old with a kid. Not in my country...

One more thing. It's already been a week since our last talk. If we reach two weeks then the chanses are 0 to forgive her. By then i will think that she tried her best to be with the guy and that i'm her plan B in case of failure...


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> As the move approaches she is stressing more. Complaining of stomach aches.


Butterflies in her stomach... Let them out.



zillard said:


> I grabbed a trucker hat of mine and sized it for her. She looked like a little [email protected]


:smthumbup:


----------



## Struggling4ever

hope4family said:


> Z not to answer your question.
> 
> But yes it can happen. I have seen it thus far with my own eyes with family members.
> 
> *But, it wasn't easy, and still isn't for them many times*.


I would have to disagree... If it wasn't easy, and still isn't many times, then I don't believe you can be truly happy. Happiness is a feeling... you can try to make yourself happy and it is about attitude and a choice to be happy to a point, but it shouldn't be hard...it should just be....


----------



## Northern Monkey

zillard said:


> I can be happiernow,


Spelt as one word on purpose?

You really don't want to be her Z! 

It cracks me up everytime I see those two words jammed together like that.


----------



## hope4family

Struggling4ever said:


> I would have to disagree... If it wasn't easy, and still isn't many times, then I don't believe you can be truly happy. Happiness is a feeling... you can try to make yourself happy and it is about attitude and a choice to be happy to a point, but it shouldn't be hard...it should just be....


I typed a fairly long response. - then deleted it.

Happiness takes time. You cannot choose to be happy. 

Joyful however, Yeah you can choose that. 

I like your rebuttle.


----------



## Struggling4ever

NXN said:


> *I really want her to say she's sorry over and over again.* I'm not a mean person, but i really wish her some miserable moments. I'm hoping that the guilt is killing her while she's at home. I don't want those feelings for the long term. I'm only hoping that she will learn a lesson. I do like that she didn't put the blame on me for one second. *She admitted that was her fault, but she couldn't explain why she did it.* Beside my assumptions, i needed an explanation from her.
> 
> I don't know if i really want her back. *I love her with all my heart, but my senses are telling me that living a life in doubt is a wasted life. If this happened while we were happy, imagine when some hard times come. Imagine if i need to go in another country for one month for a job...*
> Edit: I helped her losing weight, hoping that she will gain some confidence in her. I know for a fact that bodybuilding changed my life alot. When i look in the mirror i consider myself sexy, which is extremely important, because i learned in time to love myself and i didn't need validation from anyone. That only made me more loyal to my girlfriend . I really wanted her to reach the same goal. It turned out to be a failure...


All of the areas in bold could have been written by me... I really wanted to see remorse.. I did, but I also so blameshifting and that bothered me... The explanation I got was that she got greedy? She knew he would do whatever she wanted and buy her whatever she wanted... yet I allowed myself to believe he manipulated her. Once I went through therapy years later, I realized she manipulated him (and me) plenty! Once you open your eyes to what really happened, you can't go back!

I always say the same thing..I thought we were good? We danced together, rode motorcycles, trips, family times, and the affair with my supposed BF happened right under my nose...I just keep asking myself - who does that?

My wife always had self-esteem issues and I always tried to build her up... now she finally wants to work on herself and wants to go to therapy together... I don't really want to anymore... just tired of it/him always being there.. For me it's been 12 years and I remember every detail! I'm glad to finally have unburied my pain and faced it.. For me it's been a good thing. I too feel bad, but it is what it is!


----------



## zillard

Struggling4ever said:


> I just keep asking myself - who does that?





Struggling4ever said:


> My wife always had self-esteem issues


----------



## Ceegee

Northern Monkey said:


> Spelt as one word on purpose?
> 
> You really don't want to be her Z!
> 
> It cracks me up everytime I see those two words jammed together like that.


NM, "happiernow" appears in 6 separate threads. It will become the standard moniker for the WAW that thinks the grass in greener. It will be in the TAM glossary soon.


----------



## zillard

Northern Monkey said:


> Spelt as one word on purpose?


I would never do that.


----------



## Northern Monkey

Ceegee said:


> NM, "happiernow" appears in 6 separate threads. It will become the standard moniker for the WAW that thinks the grass in greener. It will be in the TAM glossary soon.


Not bad for someone with 0 posts. :rofl:


----------



## Tron

Ceegee said:


> NM, "happiernow" appears in 6 separate threads. It will become the standard moniker for the WAW that thinks the grass in greener. It will be in the TAM glossary soon.


I wonder if we can come up with a moniker for sacrificing oneself to the gulag in order to take down a happiernow.


----------



## Ceegee

Tron said:


> I wonder if we can come up with a moniker for sacrificing oneself to the gulag in order to take down a happiernow.


Conrad = martyr?


----------



## zillard

I wish D7's school did a better job of communicating with the parents. 

They sent home a notice today with times for an awards assembly on Thursday. Of course the assembly for D7's grade is right in the middle of our last appointment with the child psych. 

D7 is to receive an award for Principal's Honor Roll as well as Student of the Month. Which is great!

It is not necessary for D7 to be at the IC session, but I should be - I have things to discuss regarding the move. Not possible to reschedule. 

But I also do not want D7 to be one of the only kids receiving awards without parental support. Not right before this huge transition. 

Tough call to make. But I think it would be best to skip the awards and take her to the session.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Do what you gotta do, Z.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> I wish D7's school did a better job of communicating with the parents.
> 
> They sent home a notice today with times for an awards assembly on Thursday. Of course the assembly for D7's grade is right in the middle of our last appointment with the child psych.
> 
> D7 is to receive an award for Principal's Honor Roll as well as Student of the Month. Which is great!
> 
> It is not necessary for D7 to be at the IC session, but I should be - I have things to discuss regarding the move. Not possible to reschedule.
> 
> But I also do not want D7 to be one of the only kids receiving awards without parental support. Not right before this huge transition.
> 
> Tough call to make. But I think it would be best to skip the awards and take her to the session.


Have you thought about getting D7's thoughts and opinion? How important is the awards ceremony to her? And how important to her would it be to have you there for it?

Don't let her make the decision for you, but it might open up other options to know what she thinks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

She said it would be ok if I wasn't there. Not sure she'll feel the same once on stage though. 

But it is important for her to get recognized for her achievements. 

Haven't been this indecisive in a while. Decisions are more difficult when kids are involved and there are pros and cons to all options.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lifescript

Can't therapist see you another time for last app?


----------



## BWBill

Maybe she's telling you what she thinks you want to hear.

Having you watch her get the award is validation for her. Remember the stomach aches.


----------



## Tron

I guess you have no idea whether the ex is gonna make it to the appointment or not. Half the time she doesn't show.

If she doesn't then you simply leave after 10 minutes and go see the sweetie get her awards. If not, D is going to be the holder of some certificates that she can show a proud daddy later on at her special celebration dinner.


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> Can't therapist see you another time for last app?


The downside to good therapists... They book out two months in advance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lifescript

Phone session a possibility?


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> She said it would be ok if I wasn't there. Not sure she'll feel the same once on stage though.
> 
> But it is important for her to get recognized for her achievements.
> 
> Haven't been this indecisive in a while. Decisions are more difficult when kids are involved and there are pros and cons to all options.


Can you talk to the people at school in charge of the event?

Perhaps ask to have D7's awards presented toward the end... You can go to the I session for at least a bit, but cut it short to make it for D7's awards if you need to.


----------



## Mavash.

zillard said:


> The downside to good therapists... They book out two months in advance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


QFT

I'd skip the assembly too.

I've got three kids and trust me there will be plenty of award ceremonies to come but only one last session before a huge transition.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

:iagree:

Not to mention, at that age they seem to award nearly every student for something.

Missing the ceremony won't phase her.


----------



## Ceegee

Maybe in minority but I'd go to awards ceremony. Getting to 50,000 feet I see this as more beneficial to D. What are you really going to accomplish in last session?


----------



## Mavash.

ThreeStrikes said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Not to mention, at that age they seem to award nearly every student for something.
> 
> Missing the ceremony won't phase her.


QFT

I've gotten so bad that I roll my eyes at yet another ribbon, certificate, yay you showed up for school award they give out. 

My son did get a big award in 5th grade so I'm glad I didn't blow that assembly off. That's the only one that meant anything. We knew a handful of kids would be honored but didn't know till that day that he was picked.


----------



## zillard

This last session is to prep for the move next week and mostly about X and D's relationship. The work to deal with abandonment issues and my relationship with D will begin after the move. 

Due to this I thought it best to include X in the decision. It is supposed to be co-parenting after all. 

Z - D7 has earned Principals honor roll and student of the month. The awards assembly is Thursday 9:30. [Therapy session] is at 9. No other slots are open. What are your thoughts?

X - I think the therapist is more important, honestly..

Z - Good. Me too. Thanks.

X's reply came an hour before her normal good night call to D. 

No call came again tonight.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> This last session is to prep for the move next week and mostly about X and D's relationship. The work to deal with abandonment issues and my relationship with D will begin after the move.
> 
> Due to this I thought it best to include X in the decision. It is supposed to be co-parenting after all.
> 
> Z - D7 has earned Principals honor roll and student of the month. The awards assembly is Thursday 9:30. [Therapy session] is at 9. No other slots are open. What are your thoughts?
> 
> X - I think the therapist is more important, honestly..
> 
> Z - Good. Me too. Thanks.
> 
> X's reply came an hour before her normal good night call to D.
> 
> No call came again tonight.


Perfect execution.

Now, watch her miss the session.


----------



## zillard

Took D7 to last play date with her friend (child of some married friends of mine). 

I helped her make some origami puppy dogs for herself, her friend, and friend's little brother. We took them with us and the kids had fun decorating them and then making bead necklaces. 

We all enjoyed dinner and said our goodbyes. 

The move is coming up fast. 

Still no word from X about whether or not she wants D for some extra nights before the weekend. No surprise there.


----------



## catcalls

Conrad said:


> Perfect execution.
> 
> Now, watch her miss the session.


or she will do the woe betide me, my babe is being cruelly snatched away from me. poor poor me


----------



## northernlights

We moved 8 hours away from our old place when my older DD was 4. We were going from a city to the rural coast, but I was worried about how she'd transition. 
A few weeks after the move we were talking, and I asked her how she was feeling, and if she was sad to leave our old home at all. And she said, "No! I wish we'd moved here sooner!"

Crossing my fingers that your DD feels the same way about your move. 

I want to shake your X though. She's even lost her job and isn't jumping at the chance to relocate near her daughter? It doesn't make sense.


----------



## zillard

northernlights said:


> I want to shake your X though. She's even lost her job and isn't jumping at the chance to relocate near her daughter? It doesn't make sense.


Only makes sense if D7 isn't a priority for her. 

Don't think for a second that my D7 doesn't see that. One of the main reasons X gave D7 for not moving was her job... in their last therapy session together.

What are the odds of X showing at the session tomorrow? Anyone want to wager?


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Only makes sense if D7 isn't a priority for her.
> 
> Don't think for a second that my D7 doesn't see that. One of the main reasons X gave D7 for not moving was her job... in their last therapy session together.
> 
> What are the odds of X showing at the session tomorrow? Anyone want to wager?


55-45 she does.

I wonder will the therapist ask her about re-location - now that the job excuse is gone.

You can work that into the conversation - very very subtly.

(Unless you don't want her there. And, I wouldn't blame you if you don't)


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> 55-45 she does.
> 
> I wonder will the therapist ask her about re-location - now that the job excuse is gone.
> 
> You can work that into the conversation - very very subtly.
> 
> (Unless you don't want her there. And, I wouldn't blame you if you don't)


I doubt I'll have to work it in. Therapist knows of the wreck and will surely bring that up. 

X will likely go to victim chair and impulsively look for my sympathy by spilling beans about the job. 

Foot in mouth is easy to accomplish when the victim chair is big and comfy.


----------



## zillard

Lesson from MMSLP - attention from other women increases a man's perceived value. 

But how do you apply that in a long distance situation?

Phone call with Tiger last night. 

Z - Oh. haha. I have a funny story.

I then told her about the single mom at the school. How we've talked a bit in the past, how D7 has shot her the stink eye. And then how while I was pulling out of the school parking lot the other day she ran to the window to ask about digits. 

Previously I would think - why would I tell someone I'm seeing about another female asking for digits? You'd want to keep that on the down low, right? What if she thinks this, or that? 

During the exchange, as I tell the story I can hear Tiger's voice dropping, getting quieter. 

I end with the punch line. D7 saying "What? Do you KNOW her now!?"

Tiger's reaction? 

Laughter. Leading to more joking around to the point where she had to pull away from the phone until she finished laughing.

Cute things kids say + joking and laughing + disclosure of other female attention = increased attraction.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Lesson from MMSLP - attention from other women increases a man's perceived value.


It also gives you a chance to see their true colors. 

How they handle jealousy.
Enjoyment in reliving the experience with you. 
Shows whether or not their value of you is healthy.


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> It also gives you a chance to see their true colors.
> 
> How they handle jealousy.
> Enjoyment in reliving the experience with you.
> Shows whether or not their value of you is healthy.


If Tiger were BPD, by tomorrow, she'd be asking you questions about if you "really want" school mom and, if that's the case, just do it now so she won't be hurt.

I would never advise someone who loves a BPD spouse to share such stories.

However, a healthy woman? Share away.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> It also gives you a chance to see their true colors.
> 
> How they handle jealousy.
> Enjoyment in reliving the experience with you.
> Shows whether or not their value of you is healthy.


And builds trust. 

How can a moment of jealousy build trust? 

By being open about it I show that I am confident. Not afraid of what her reaction may be. 

Women can't feel secure with a weak man.


----------



## Chuck71

72 / 25 X is no show for IC

it's too late for that

she is planning her exit scene

mark it on the wall


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> If Tiger were BPD, by tomorrow, she'd be asking you questions about if you "really want" school mom and, if that's the case, just do it now so she won't be hurt.
> 
> I would never advise someone who loves a BPD spouse to share such stories.
> 
> However, a healthy woman? Share away.


Yeah...a man should NEVER tell me such a story.


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> Yeah...a man should NEVER tell me such a story.


In all seriousness, this is part of my long-term hope for this forum.

You don't treat everyone the same.

To prove it, I want Z to predict Script's wife reaction to him telling her that same story

In the next breath, Script's wife would INSIST she wants Script to be "honest"

And, like a good little codependent, he'll start telling her the truth -and she'll rip his heart out in return.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> If Tiger were BPD, by tomorrow, she'd be asking you questions about if you "really want" school mom and, if that's the case, just do it now so she won't be hurt.
> 
> I would never advise someone who loves a BPD spouse to share such stories.
> 
> However, a healthy woman? Share away.


This is a great point, Conrad. 

With a BPD spouse it could certainly trigger the fear of abandonment. That fear often leads to lashing out. Rejecting you before you can reject her. 

During my trip last weekend I also told T about the offer I received to be "roomies", as she knows that woman too. 

T never asked if I would take the woman up on the offer. Last night she didn't ask if I gave out my digits to single mom or not.

I see that as a good sign. If she is worried about it, she is maintaining self control and respecting our current situation.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> This is a great point, Conrad.
> 
> With a BPD spouse it could certainly trigger the fear of abandonment. That fear often leads to lashing out. Rejecting you before you can reject her.
> 
> During my trip last weekend I also told T about the offer I received to be "roomies", as she knows that woman too.
> 
> T never asked if I would take the woman up on the offer. Last night she didn't ask if I gave out my digits to single mom or not.
> 
> I see that as a good sign. If she is worried about it, she is maintaining self control and respecting our current situation.


Keep observing.

If she's as healthy as she seems, your honesty will help your relationship.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> In all seriousness, this is part of my long-term hope for this forum.
> 
> You don't treat everyone the same.
> 
> To prove it, I want Z to predict Script's wife reaction to him telling her that same story
> 
> In the next breath, Script's wife would INSIST she wants Script to be "honest"
> 
> And, like a good little codependent, he'll start telling her the truth -and she'll rip his heart out in return.


My reaction would be much the same. 

I'd laugh it up, initially, but a couple of hours later, I'd come back with, "So, what was your reason for telling me that? Are you thinking you might like to try things with her? I mean, if you are, okay, but just tell me the truth."


----------



## Chuck71

I could not agree with C more

as they teach you when you are a school teacher

all children are the same

sorry to burst the Dept of Eds buble but that is not the case

reason I left teaching


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> I would never advise someone who loves a BPD spouse to share such stories.


In the context of this example neither would I. 

But merely saying, "be with whom makes you happy." Is not a sign of a bpd partner. (Partner meaning, relationships or spouse.) 

But it's definitely a red flag.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> In all seriousness, this is part of my long-term hope for this forum.
> 
> You don't treat everyone the same.
> 
> To prove it, *I want Z to predict Script's wife reaction to him telling her that same story*
> 
> In the next breath, Script's wife would INSIST she wants Script to be "honest"
> 
> And, like a good little codependent, he'll start telling her the truth -and she'll rip his heart out in return.


Did you tell her "hell no, b!tch, I'm married!"? 

Did you call the ****? 

Who does she think she is, hitting on you in a school parking lot!? Who does that? 

If I ever see you talking to her I'll stab you. Don't think I'm joking. I will. 

What did you say to her to lead her on? Are you always talking to her while you're waiting for OUR DAUGHTER?


----------



## hope4family




----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Did you tell her "hell no, b!tch, I'm married!"?
> 
> Did you call the ****?
> 
> Who does she think she is, hitting on you in a school parking lot!? Who does that?
> 
> If I ever see you talking to her I'll stab you. Don't think I'm joking. I will.
> 
> What did you say to her to lead her on? Are you always talking to her while you're waiting for OUR DAUGHTER?


Sounds like you've had some experience with this type


----------



## HappyKaty

hope4family said:


>


hahahahaha!


----------



## Chuck71

Who went to a Slayer concert and did not tell me danmit??????




HappyKaty said:


> hahahahaha!


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Sounds like you've had some experience with this type


Oh yes. I remember a time I went out for drinks with my brother. After we returned home saucy bro mentioned that a woman had hit on me in the bar. 

X was angry with ME for days.


----------



## Mavash.

HappyKaty said:


> Yeah...a man should NEVER tell me such a story.


Agree and with women like us there is no reason to either. I'm madly in love with my husband without the games of having to hear other women want him. I picked someone who didn't know how great he was on purpose. Their loss my gain I thought. 

He's the perfect man for a bpd'er. Middle child, two sisters, peace loving, always calm and introverted. The calm to my storm. My challenge was to get used to living without drama.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Oh yes. I remember a time I went out for drinks with my brother. After we returned home saucy bro mentioned that a woman had hit on me in the bar.
> 
> X was angry with ME for days.


My wife kicked me in dance class. 

Her reason? She didn't like the way the red head looked at me. 

Yet somehow, I was "Ok" to have female friends.


----------



## Garry2012

OMG---I used to get an earful if i even talked to X's attractive cousin...even if just a passing comment, and I heard it all the time that the woman I co-coached my sons soccer team was "my girlfriend"--and Hooters? OMG...might as well go have an affair. So, yeah Z...I tried to buried anything like that..(part of the frustration with my situation was that fact that in the last two year, she thought it was just fine for her to be a lightening rod for all that attn from men--yet i was under Nazi rule for 12 years)


----------



## Conrad

Garry2012 said:


> OMG---I used to get an earful if i even talked to X's attractive cousin...even if just a passing comment, and I heard it all the time that the woman I co-coached my sons soccer team was "my girlfriend"--and Hooters? OMG...might as well go have an affair. So, yeah Z...I tried to buried anything like that..(part of the frustration with my situation was that fact that in the last two year, she thought it was just fine for her to be a lightening rod for all that attn from men--yet i was under Nazi rule for 12 years)


Sgt Schultz - Nothing - YouTube


----------



## Chuck71

well Garry you have just been liberated, f' em


----------



## ReGroup

If I saw a women who I knew my wife "thought" I found was attractive I would find myself staring at the floor for the next 45 seconds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> If I saw a women who I knew my wife "thought" I found was attractive I would find myself staring at the floor for the next 45 seconds.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bingo. I did that too. 

Eggshells.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> If I saw a women who I knew my wife "thought" I found was attractive I would find myself staring at the floor for the next 45 seconds.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sgt Schultz - Nothing - YouTube


----------



## zillard

Mavash. said:


> He's the perfect man for a bpd'er. Middle child, two sisters, peace loving, always calm and introverted. The calm to my storm. My challenge was to get used to living without drama.


You just described me, Mav. But 4 sisters.

I believe this is a big reason my relationship with X lasted 10 years. 

X - " You were always so calm, so patient. I thought I could absorb that calm. That patience. I thought if I played the part of perfect wife really well, I'd just become the perfect wife. If I ignored all the churning **** in my mind that it would go away."

You met your challenge head on. Not all find the courage to do so.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> You just described me, Mav. But 4 sisters.
> 
> I believe this is a big reason my relationship with X lasted 10 years.
> 
> X - " You were always so calm, so patient. I thought I could absorb that calm. That patience. I thought if I played the part of perfect wife really well, I'd just become the perfect wife. If I ignored all the churning **** in my mind that it would go away."
> 
> You met your challenge head on. Not all find the courage to do so.


Heard something similar. 

X - "My calmness comes from you." 

She probably should have thought of that before she brought up OM.


----------



## Ceegee

ReGroup said:


> If I saw a women who I knew my wife "thought" I found was attractive I would find myself staring at the floor for the next 45 seconds.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This and feeling compelled to say something negative about her.

"OMG, did you see that (incredibly hot) woman? What was she wearing (short, low-cut dress)?"


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> You just described me, Mav. But 4 sisters.


Fourth child of seven... 3 sisters... was in too many fights when I was young to ever willingly want to take part in one again.


----------



## hope4family

5 all older then me, I take the pot.


----------



## zillard

Picked up D7 from school. Single mom found me. I said bye and told her I'm leaving tuesday. 

As I gathered D and her stuff she ran into the office and back, handing me a slip of paper with her email address on it. 

Weirdo. 

Deleted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vi_bride04

"stage 5 clinger!! Stage 5 clinger!!"


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Weirdo.



Awwww. Sad face.

You can't get mad because she thinks you're hot!


----------



## Garry2012

ReGroup said:


> If I saw a women who I knew my wife "thought" I found was attractive I would find myself staring at the floor for the next 45 seconds.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


haha yep im gulity...look the other way, look down, look up, look at your cell...ANYTHING...but DONT look anywhere near her direction..lol...

Yes LIBERATION...now I take an extra long look and hope they look back haha.


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> Awwww. Sad face.
> 
> You can't get mad because she thinks you're hot!


haha. I'm not mad. It was cute of her. 

I have no intentions of starting a long distance thing though. Oh wait.


----------



## hope4family

vi_bride04 said:


> "stage 5 clinger!! Stage 5 clinger!!"


Bold move on her part. 

Little things like that are too much fun to interpret as red flags.


----------



## Garry2012

heck, if her hot cousin sat near me, I found a reason to get up....thing is, i wonder if the cousin noticed how jealous...cause it seemed like she did some stuff on purpose haha. Might have to find out one of these days.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> I have no intentions of starting a long distance thing though. Oh wait.


She does seem clingy. I'm sure a long distance thing wouldn't work well for her. She's probably a BPD'er.


----------



## Garry2012

Gotta like her gumption though...she gets points for that!


----------



## hope4family

Garry2012 said:


> haha yep im gulity...look the other way, look down, look up, look at your cell...ANYTHING...but DONT look anywhere near her direction..lol...
> 
> Yes LIBERATION...now I take an extra long look and hope they look back haha.


Better yet, work on you and keeping your appearance warm. Smile then they start to smile back.

After that, they typically let you look as much as you want, as long as it's not "painfully obvious."


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> She does seem clingy. I'm sure a long distance thing wouldn't work well for her. She's probably a BPD'er.


I hear there's one under every rock


----------



## zillard

Poor kiddo.


----------



## Awakening2012

zillard said:


> Poor kiddo.


OMG, this breaks my heart -- God bless you and your D. Happier times lie ahead!


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Poor kiddo.


I hope D7 is giving that to X.


----------



## zillard

We'll be taking it to the session tomorrow. For damn sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Poor kiddo.


Gorrammit, Z! That's not fair... Not after the father-daughter talk I had to have last night.

I'm gonna go have a good cry now. Back later.



:absolut:


----------



## Ceegee

What selfish B!TCH! 

Sorry Z. Just an emotional response to how terrible that makes me feel for D.


----------



## ReGroup

Takes a lot to get me glassy eyed. 

F'!


----------



## Lifescript

My heart breaks for her Z. Thank God she has you though.


----------



## Chuck71

When ex and I were in store or where ever, she would admit

my mind would be off in another land

I could look at a girl and ex would not say a word

*wink* lol


----------



## Northern Monkey

I so hope she pulls her head to of her ass long enough to be a good Mum at some point.


----------



## Mavash.

Northern Monkey said:


> I so hope she pulls her head to of her ass long enough to be a good Mum at some point.


Not likely based on what I'm reading. She reminds me of many members of my family. They never got it together. Gave up on my own mother a decade ago. She'd rather gamble and drink than anything else.

Some people just aren't cut out for motherhood.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> Poor kiddo.


My X would have accused me of 'making' my kiddo write something like that...

The insinuation being that I was using my kid in an attempt to hurt X and make her feel guilty.

Ha! X doesn't realize that people like her never feel guilty. They just feel victimized.


----------



## Conrad

Mavash. said:


> Not likely based on what I'm reading. She reminds me of many members of my family. They never got it together. Gave up on my own mother a decade ago. She'd rather gamble and drink than anything else.
> 
> Some people just aren't cut out for motherhood.


I had hope for her earlier.

She's more interested in letting Zillard know that some guy loaned her his truck than she is in her own kid.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> I had hope for her earlier.
> 
> She's more interested in letting Zillard know that some guy loaned her his truck than she is in her own kid.


I hope he's a good little fixer cuz she's getting pretty needy. Found out her grandma sent her money to tie her over til she finds a job. Right after she sent her a few grand to help get another car. 

She's milking those enablers for all they are worth. 

Glad I'm not one of them anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bullwinkle

Damn, Z! This is clarity! You're glad you're not one of her anaboers anymore. What you call a defining moment.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Enablers, sorry.


----------



## zillard

X called to say goodnight to D7. 

She asked how D was doing. 

D - Not good. I'm getting goose bumps and my tummy hurts. 

X - Did Dad check your temperature? With the temperature gauge?

D - I don't know.

X - Well maybe he should. 

They talked for a minute or two more and then..

D - Can I just drop it? I want to go to bed.

X said goodnight and asked D to put me on. 

She asked about fevers. 

Z - She doesn't have a fever. It's stress. 

X - Well it could be a stress OR a virus. 

Z - It's stress. (I relayed how D triggered during breakfast at mention of her mom's house).

X - ohhhh. I hope the move goes ok. 

Z - it will.

X - How do you want to handle this weekend?

Z - That's up to you. She's out of school. 

She said tomorrow she has to do a bunch of stuff. Unemployment stuff, etc which wouldn't be fun for D. 

X - But I want to spend as much time as I can with her. 

Z - Well, she's here and available. 

She dodged and told me she just got back from an out of state visit to her grandma's (since Monday). Awesome just hunt. 

X - I was freaking out. I needed some grandma time. And XBIL got arrested. That's why I missed the call last night. I got a text from him about getting arrested. 

Z - That sucks.

She said she'd figure some stuff out, hopefully before the session tomorrow. So she might know if she's available by tomorrow. And then she can maybe stop by the house and pack a bag for D. 

Z - That would be good if you know in time for the session. I can have a bag packed in the car so you can take her from there.

X - Ok, I'm just being nice and keeping you informed. 

Z - Thank you. Let me know.


----------



## Chuck71

SMH
unf#$%ingbelieveable
X is front runner for ashole of the year


----------



## vi_bride04

I just got really p!ssed off reading that update...

What is it with these women abandoning their daughters????


----------



## zillard

vi_bride04 said:


> What is it with these women abandoning their daughters????


I haven't cried like I did tonight in a long while. 

My little angel deserves so much better than this.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I haven't cried like I did tonight in a long while.
> 
> My little angel deserves so much better than this.


Hey brother,

We're all feeling it for you tonight.

At least your head will be held high knowing that moving is 100% the right thing to do.

That's all you have control over.

But, I'm still welling up here just thinking about that precious little girl.


----------



## Ceegee

Praying for you and D7 brother.


----------



## zillard

ThreeStrikes said:


> My X would have accused me of 'making' my kiddo write something like that...
> 
> The insinuation being that I was using my kid in an attempt to hurt X and make her feel guilty.
> 
> Ha! X doesn't realize that people like her never feel guilty. They just feel victimized.


D brought that home from school today. 

She wrote it for mother's day but had been keeping it in her desk since.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> D brought that home from school today.
> 
> She wrote it for mother's day but had been keeping it in her desk since.


Yes, I "liked" the post, but I REALLY dislike it.

It would likely be easier to come back from the crap with posOM than to come back from this.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> It would likely be easier to come back from the crap with posOM than to come back from this.


Absolutely 110% correct. 

This is the first time I've felt a need to go to the firing range since X moved out. 

And it's not codependent or BS anger this time. 

It's pure papa bear.


----------



## zillard

But there is good in this. 

With emotions so strong tonight, I was able to remain composed during that call. 

Even though my heart is aching for D7, and there is a righteous fury burning in me, I am proud of myself tonight.

That will benefit D7 more than anything X is capable of providing. 

Poor, unfortunate, safe, lucky little girl with a bright future ahead of her!


----------



## Northern Monkey

Zillard, you are an amazing Dad.

Seeing that note set me off last night, I'm so happy for you that you were able to keep it together.

My thoughts are with you and D. She deserves so much better, fortunately she has "so much better" in spades from Dad.


----------



## catcalls

zillard said:


> But there is good in this.
> 
> With emotions so strong tonight, I was able to remain composed during that call.
> 
> Even though my heart is aching for D7, and there is a righteous fury burning in me, I am proud of myself tonight.
> 
> That will benefit D7 more than anything X is capable of providing.
> 
> Poor, unfortunate, safe, lucky little girl with a bright future ahead of her!


Although it is a sh*tty way to learn things,your D has had the opportunity to interact with her mother before your move. she is scared and feeling abandoned. but she knows that her mum did not make the effort and you did a lot to make her available to her mum and facilitate their interaction. 

It is the fear of the unknown that may be affecting her. Once she moves and settles into a new home and lifestyle, she will feel 'at home' there. She will have more adults to take care of her and start really blossoming with her cousins. Mum will come and visit but unless she ups her act, your D is going to rely less and less on her for emotional succor.

While it is heartbreaking now, it is better in a way to have a clean break rather than have her mum abandoning her over and over again


----------



## Chuck71

Z less than a week to go........."let's just say"

is there any thing at this point X could say or do

to make you and D stay?

pure hypothetical


----------



## HappyKaty

Good luck at the session, today, Z. 

I hope your piece.of.sh1t ex-wife gets what she deserves.


----------



## Lifescript

Z, 

This is all more proof that you are making the right decision. Since when does spending time with your child comes second to seeing grandma, job hunting or whatever! 

Good luck at session today brother.


----------



## GutPunch

Chuck71 said:


> Z less than a week to go........."let's just say"
> 
> is there any thing at this point X could say or do
> 
> to make you and D stay?
> 
> pure hypothetical


I believe that ship has sailed.


----------



## turnera

If you stayed, D would be in for another 10 years of getting her hopes up, only to be disappointed over and over again. At least this way, she can grieve once and then move on to her 'new' family that will become her norm, one full of good people and lots of love and attention.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Z less than a week to go........."let's just say"
> 
> is there any thing at this point X could say or do
> 
> to make you and D stay?
> 
> pure hypothetical


No Chuck. Not a chance!

X - Go ahead and pack a bag for D7. I'll bring her home from the therapist if that's ok with you. Also, can I please use the car seat from you car?

^ this is good. She will have D for 5 nights in a row. It will be the longest time she's spent with D in over a year. 

Doesn't even begin to change my mind at this point.


----------



## vi_bride04

zillard said:


> No Chuck. Not a chance!
> 
> X - Go ahead and pack a bag for D7. I'll bring her home from the therapist if that's ok with you. Also, can I please use the car seat from you car?
> 
> *^ this is good. She will have D for 5 nights in a row. It will be the longest time she's spent with D in over a year. *
> 
> Doesn't even begin to change my mind at this point.


The longest time she spent with her in a YEAR??!!!


----------



## zillard

vi_bride04 said:


> The longest time she spent with her in a YEAR??!!!


Yes. When she moved out in December she had been working swing shift with a commute for a year. During the week she was awake and in the same house with D for 1/2 hour a day. For that year she spent the weekends home with D. 

Since separation one 3-day stretch is the longest she's been with D.


----------



## zillard

Last joint therapy session with the child therapist (CT):

X went in with the therapist first while I grabbed a Nintendo DS for D7 to play while she waited in the lobby for the first part of the session. When I entered the room they were discussing X getting fired. 

I missed the first part but apparently she was escorted off the premises and then found out she was fired the next day. So it sounds like there probably was an incident, or she showed up under the influence of something. 

CT was happy to hear X has D for the rest of her time here before the move. X mentioned that she had discussed it with her grandparents and they told her that she should do it. I'm disappointed that not doing so was even considered and discussed as an option. 

CT asked me about D. I spoke of her stomach aches, triggers, anger, etc. We discussed the specific type of therapist/methods that I should look for in new place. 

I brought up the cell phone. X admitted she has done nothing and can't afford it. 

CT - So you will not be getting a cell phone for D then? (excuses, etc. she will when she can, etc) How do you feel about that Z? 

Z - I feel that it is VERY important for her to have before the move, so... I will be getting one. 

X - I'll pay for it when I can.

CT - So you are saying that when you can you will take over the plan? 

X - Well, I'd like to split it.

Z - I'm not ok with that. I am covering everything else now, including the insurance, which is not my responsibility. We talked about it being important that it come from you and it would be cheaper to add a line to your plan. 

X - I never said that.

CT - You've said that here. I've heard you say that. Can I ask you why you now think it should be split? 

She went into victim mode. Crying. She's never had a daughter move away before, she's never been fired like that, she's never been in a wreck like that. 

CT - So basically you are out of control. 

It went into some one on one stuff for a bit as I watched. 

CT asked if I had anything. I brought up X not calling D for 3 nights. She had excuses. 

CT - How blunt do you want me to be? (X made a gesture - go ahead).

CT - You screw your daughter over when you disappear. You screw her over. 

More one on one. 

Z - Before the job loss, the soonest you could come out to visit D was in August. Is that still the case? 

X - I have no idea. I don't know where I'll be working, etc. I have no idea.

Z - Can you commit to a weekend so we can tell D? Fourth of July? Anything?

X - I have no idea yet. What don't you understand about that? 

Z - What I don't understand is why you can't commit to a weekend. 

CT - Can you see that what you are doing right now is not about D? You are putting this back on Z asking why he can't understand. You can go into an interview and say this is a weekend that I scheduled back in May to see my daughter who lives out of state. 

X - Ok, let's do 4th of July then. 

Z - So if I tell D that you will be there, you will be?

X - I'll do everything I can. 

CT - Maybe it's better not to tell D then. Not until you are absolutely committed to doing it. I'm not hearing that right now and it would be worse to let her down. 

Z - Yes. Not unless there is a "Yes. Absolutely."

CT - So how have you been doing Z? I imagine this is all very hard for you and worried for D.

Z - I'm terrified for her. And angry. 

CT - Tell me more about that. 

Z - She is hurting. And my papa bear is coming out. 

X - You asked for this. 

Z - I don't see it that way. 

X - You sat at the patio table and asked me to let you take her. 

Z - Yes I did. I absolutely did. I'm not mad about the move. I think it is the best thing to do. That is the best situation that I can create. And that is all I can do. Create the best situation for her. I can not control what anyone else does. 

After a couple more minutes CT went out to bring D in with us. While she was in the lobby X turned to me in tears.

X - I'm not trying to Fvck things up.

Z - I know. I know you aren't trying.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> *X - I'm not trying to Fvck things up.*
> 
> Z - I know. I know you aren't trying.



"Z, puhleeeeze feel bad for me. I am losing my daughter, I was in a wreck, I got fiiiiiired! I need you to hug me and tell me everything is going to be alright." 



Cvnt.


----------



## Ceegee

That's a tough day for you Z. 

Still amazed at how well you are able to retain so many details.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Still amazed at how well you are able to retain so many details.


It is much easier at 50,000 feet. When we aren't wrapped up in ourselves, and watch as an outside observer, we take in more.


----------



## Lifescript

I admire you for keeping your cool. 

I think I'd have lost it. I like how the therapist hold her accountable.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> Z - I'm terrified for her. And angry.
> 
> CT - Tell me more about that.
> 
> Z - She is hurting. And my papa bear is coming out.
> 
> X - You asked for this.


This right here proves that she simply does not get it. 

She too wrapped up in herself to see the situation as it is.


----------



## Lifescript

That's right. She doesn't. It's never their fault.


----------



## Mavash.

zillard said:


> This right here proves that she simply does not get it.
> 
> She too wrapped up in herself to see the situation as it is.


That was the key sentence I saw too.

Others simply don't exist to her.

Does not compute.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

She's a child in an adult's body.


----------



## zillard

How's that for page 200!

This has been quite the journey. 

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to read, and even more thanks to those who have contributed. 

You have been a huge help to me in getting to this point. 

Thank you. Sincerely.


----------



## zillard

Oh, this might be helpful for those who move with children. 

This morning before the session I did something with D. A special "goodbye" to her room and the house, as she will not be returning here. 

I took her to her bedroom and we stood in the doorway, knelt and had her sit on my knee. I vocally said goodbye to her bedroom. 

Z - Goodbye bedroom. You are such a nice room and I've had some really good times here. I will miss you, but at our new place I will have a new room that will be very nice. But I will always have good memories of you. 

D - I'm not saying that Dad. 

She then asked to spend sometime on her bed alone. So I went downstairs and gave her some time. I grabbed a camera and returned a few minutes later. Took pictures of her in her room. On her bed. Pics of the walls and decorations, etc. 

We then walked through the house and I talked about memories of good times in each part of it. Remember when we did this, here? We had a good time doing this, here. Then the backyard. Remember our fun time swimming, camping out, etc. 

Then made our way to the car and left from there. 

This was something that the therapist recommended. D seemed to really enjoy doing this.


----------



## Mavash.

Works for adults too.


----------



## Awakening2012

Z - This is sooooo sweet and mindful. You are such a great Dad!

Good luck with your relocation, and I hope you keep us posted on your happier new chapter  

Cheers,- A12


----------



## doureallycare2

It is heart just wrenches to keep reading how your daughter does not have a mother that puts her needs first. As a mother I just can’t understand it. I’ve been through a lot but always sheltered my boys and they came first. thank God she has a father that does put her first and is doing his best to make Shure she comes out of this as un-scathed as possible!


----------



## HappyKaty

doureallycare2 said:


> It is heart just wrenches to keep reading how your daughter does not have a mother that puts her needs first. As a mother I just can’t understand it.


As a woman who wants to be a mother, and cannot, I want to punch her in her ovaries. 

D7 is a lucky little girl, though, to have a father that fulfills both roles, so well.


----------



## Tron

HappyKaty said:


> As a woman who wants to be a mother, and cannot, I want to punch her in her ovaries.


Katy - I know your situation and that is simply not true. There are other ways.

Z - I am so sorry it has come down to this with the X. It is heartbreaking, but you are doing the right thing. You are a fantastic dad and you have an awesome little girl there.


----------



## HappyKaty

Tron said:


> Katy - I know your situation and that is simply not true. There are other ways.


Tron - 

I'm simply referring to a woman who is given the privilege of birthing a child, only to abandon it.

It makes no sense to me. At all.


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> you have an awesome little girl there.


You're right about that! 

I just went to the school to say goodbye to her teacher and pick up her awards. I also got results from her Cognitive Abilities Test. She qualified as gifted - tested 98th percentile nationally!

Woohoo! Beaming with pride right now. :smthumbup:


----------



## Ceegee

You know there is some debate about the priority of family. 

Some will say:

1. God
2. Children
3. Spouse

Others (including myself) will say:

1. God
2. Spouse
3. Children

Your X:

1. Self
2. Everyone else


----------



## Tron

HappyKaty said:


> Tron -
> 
> I'm simply referring to a woman who is given the privilege of birthing a child, only to abandon it.
> 
> It makes no sense to me. At all.


:iagree::iagree: Me either.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> You know there is some debate about the priority of family.
> 
> Your X:
> 
> 1. Self
> 2. Everyone else


1. Husband & Wife
2. Child(ren)
3. Me
4. Family/Friends
5. Job
6. Civic Service

Now that I am single - scratch #1.

Well, actually:

1. 50% me (healing and health)
3. 50% me (fun time)


----------



## zillard

5 days without my princess. Never in a million years would I agree to let her move away from me. 

Never.

Hopefully learning what I know will mean she never knows about TAM.


----------



## zillard

Best. Advice. Evah.


----------



## catcalls

zillard said:


> 1. Husband & Wife
> 2. Child(ren)
> 3. Me
> 4. Family/Friends
> 5. Job
> 6. Civic Service
> 
> Now that I am single - scratch #1.
> 
> Well, actually:
> 
> 1. 50% me (healing and health)
> 3. 50% me (fun time)


great attitude Z. reading those bits of dialogue with your X with the counselor made me feel bad. She really is a mixture of selfish and fu*ked up. you can attribute some bits to her childhood, but once you become an adult you have the capability of changing. and she should want to change for her D. 
But it seems like she is descending further into an abyss. Did you ever have a clue that she was this destructive when you were married to her? or did she repress those tendencies then?

either way, it is not your problem now. It is good for you both to move and have a fresh start with your family. For all the progress you have made, being in this town and interacting with your X regularly is still a downer. best of luck


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


>


I just love her little proofreading notations... 

She's aware of her past mistakes... she let's them be... but she points them out... so she can try to do better next time...

:smthumbup:


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> best. Advice. Evah.


*don't panic*


----------



## hope4family

I know you have done a good job in all of this. 

Try and remind your daughter, that it isn't her job to reassure you not to be scared. 

Remember, she is at a very impressionable age.


----------



## Pbartender

hope4family said:


> Try and remind your daughter, that it isn't her job to reassure you not to be scared.


And also... It's okay for her to be a little scared. It's okay for Z to be a little scared. It's kind of a scary time. It's scary, because different, exciting, adventurous and new things are happening... And that's okay... It can be good, if you're brave.


----------



## zillard

She wrote that for the dog. A neighbor sets off fireworks nearly every other weekend and the dog hates em. lol.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> She wrote that for the dog. A neighbor sets off fireworks nearly every other weekend and the dog hates em. lol.


HAHA awesome.


----------



## zillard

catcalls said:


> But it seems like she is descending further into an abyss. Did you ever have a clue that she was this destructive when you were married to her? or did she repress those tendencies then?


I didn't see it, no. Looking at her mother, I could have. But I wasn't where I am today. 

C'est la vie.



catcalls said:


> For all the progress you have made, being in this town and interacting with your X regularly is still a downer. best of luck


I have let the last few get me down. Mostly due to my own anxiety about the move. But overall I am glad I've been here for them. I have learned a lot about myself due to them. 

Learn from them. And then let them go.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> And also... It's okay for her to be a little scared. It's okay for Z to be a little scared. It's kind of a scary time. It's scary, because different, exciting, adventurous and new things are happening... And that's okay... It can be good, if you're brave.


I had a conversation a little while ago with T about fear. 

PB will be glad to know Dune was include. 

I discussed the reason why I really enjoy doing things like skydiving, riding roller coasters, bungee jumping, etc. 

Because I'm afraid of heights. 

The moments leading up to those activities are terrifying. I even get a little shaky. But that is why I love it. As soon as the ride starts, the fear passes through me and is gone. I see that there was no reason to fear. 

And it feels EXCELLENT!


----------



## zillard

Tried to call d7 to say goodnight last night. 

Went unanswered. Again. 

Finishing printing 200 shirts for a local burger joint before I pick up my brothers from the airport. Then we'll go enjoy some free food and commence the work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Best. Advice. Evah.


"Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you."


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> "Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you."


"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." - King James Bible

"There is no love in fear". - Tool


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." - King James Bible
> 
> "There is no love in fear". - Tool


"Then there will be a next step - fear, fear of loss, fear of alienation, fear of rejection, mutual control. Perfect love casts out fear."

De Mello


----------



## Awakening2012

zillard said:


> Tried to call d7 to say goodnight last night.
> 
> Went unanswered. Again.
> 
> Finishing printing 200 shirts for a local burger joint before I pick up my brothers from the airport. Then we'll go enjoy some free food and commence the work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi Z -

So sad your WS shows so little regard for her child. Thank God you are there for her, and supporting her to deal with this "abandonment" and move the both of you to a nurturing, supporting place that will be sooo much better for her to cope and thrive. You are courageously setting a great example and it will no doubt pay off big time. Hats off to you!

Glad your brothers are coming to help out. Is "the work" you'll be doing with them the prep for moving? Enjoy their company and support -- you are on your way!

Cheers , A12


----------



## Ceegee

Z - are you a Muze fan? This song seems to fit your X pretty well. Particularly the last verse. 

(Mu-mu-mu-mad-mad-mad) x3 
I... I can't get this memories out of my mind. 
And some kind of Madness, 
Has started to evolve, mmn. 

And I... I tried so hard to let you go. 
But some kind of Madness, 
Is swallowing me whole, yeh. 

I have finally seen the light. 
And I... have finally realized. 
What you mean... 
And now, I need to know if it's real love. 
Or is it just Madness, 
Keeping us afloat, mmm. 

And when I look back, at all the crazy fights we have, 
Like some kind of M-m-madness, 
Was taking control, yeh. 

And now I have finally seen the light, 
And I... have finally realized, 
What you need, mmm. 

(Mu-mu-mu-mad-mad-mad) x2 

And now I have finally seen the end, 
(I have seen the end) 
And I'm... I'm expecting you to care, 
(Expecting you to care) 
And I... have finally seen the light, 
(Have finally seen the light) 
And I... have finally realized, 
(Realized) 

(I NEED TO LOVE) x2 

Capture me, 
Trust in your dream, 
Come on and rescue me. 
Yes, I know, I can't move on, 
Baby, you're too head-strong. 
Our love is... 

(Mu-mu-mu-mad-mad-mad) x4


----------



## HappyKaty

Love, love, LOVE that song, Ceegee!


----------



## Ceegee

HappyKaty said:


> Love, love, LOVE that song, Ceegee!


My favorite right now.


----------



## HappyKaty

Another good one...in regards to seeing the light. 

Imagine Dragons - Radioactive - YouTube

Sorry for the thread jack, Z.


----------



## Awakening2012

HappyKaty said:


> Another good one...in regards to seeing the light.
> 
> Imagine Dragons - Radioactive - YouTube
> 
> Sorry for the thread jack, Z.


Love, love, love this song and bad! Another of my recovery anthems!


----------



## Ceegee

HappyKaty said:


> Another good one...in regards to seeing the light.
> 
> Imagine Dragons - Radioactive - YouTube
> 
> Sorry for the thread jack, Z.


I'm sorry too Z. Talking music with the women. You'll understand. 

As far as recovery songs go, A12, this was my favorite. The lyrics fit perfectly. 

http://youtu.be/aRpjqxXkTJU


----------



## HappyKaty

Ceegee said:


> I'm sorry too Z. Talking music with the women. You'll understand.
> 
> As far as recovery songs go, A12, this was my favorite. The lyrics fit perfectly.
> 
> Lionel Richie & Tim McGraw - Sail On - YouTube


I've never been much for country, or it's like, but that was a good one. 

This one is another one on my playlist. The lyrics are amazing.

Three Days Grace - I Hate Everything About You - YouTube


----------



## Ceegee

HappyKaty said:


> I've never been much for country, or it's like, but that was a good one.
> 
> This one is another one on my playlist. The lyrics are amazing.
> 
> Three Days Grace - I Hate Everything About You - YouTube


Of course. That ones a given. 😜


----------



## Awakening2012

Ceegee said:


> I'm sorry too Z. Talking music with the women. You'll understand.
> 
> As far as recovery songs go, A12, this was my favorite. The lyrics fit perfectly.
> 
> Lionel Richie & Tim McGraw - Sail On - YouTube


Good one, CeeGee -- and old classic I had forgotten, that is very applicable and healing 

Thanks!!A12


----------



## Chuck71

Seems all music is borne from the blues.....country, metal, rap, etc
I was introduced to the group as metal but the blues are why I still listen to them 25 years later.

Cinderella - Heartbreak Station - YouTube

Cinderella-Through the rain lyrics - YouTube


----------



## Pbartender

*Next Girl*, by The Blacks Keys

_Well, the look of the cake, it ain't... It ain't always the taste.
My ex girl, she had such a such a... such a beautiful face.
I wanted love, but not for myself.
But for the girl, so she could... So she could love herself.

Oh, my next girl will be nothing like my ex girl.
I made mistakes back then. I'll never do it again.

Oh, my next girl she'll be nothing like my ex girl.
It was a painful death. Now, I got a second chance.

Oh, her beautiful face, and her... And her wicked ways! 
And I'm praying for her beautiful face every day.
All that work, over... Over so much time.
If I... If I think too hard, I might lose my mind.

Oh, my next girl, yeah, will be nothing like my ex girl.
I made mistakes back then, I'll never do it again.

Yeah, my next girl. She'll be nothing like my ex girl.
That was a painful death, and I... I got a second chance. Yeah.

Next girl, yeah... My next girl._


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> Seems all music is borne from the blues.....country, metal, rap, etc
> I was introduced to the group as metal but the blues are why I still listen to them 25 years later.
> 
> Cinderella - Heartbreak Station - YouTube
> 
> Cinderella-Through the rain lyrics - YouTube


"Rock-n-Roll came from a combination of gospel and rhythm & blues."

-Elvis Presley


----------



## Awakening2012

Pbartender said:


> *Next Girl*, by The Blacks Keys


LOL! Good one, PB -- and you gotta love the baby Zillard doing the vocal in the video


----------



## Pbartender

Awakening2012 said:


> LOL! Good one, PB -- and you gotta love the baby Zillard doing the vocal in the video


This one's just for Soca and his cooking class...

*Love You Madly*, by Cake.

_I don't want to wonder if this is a blunder.
I don't want to worry whether we're gonna stay together 'till we die.

I don't want to jump in unless this music's thumping.
All the dishes rattle in the cupboards when the elephants arrive.

I want to love you madly.
I want to love you now.
I want to love you madly, way.
I want to love you, love you...
Love you madly.

I don't want to fake it. I just want to make it.
The ornaments look pretty, but they're pulling down the branches of the tree.

I don't want to think about it. I don't want to talk about it.
When I kiss your lips, I want to sink down to the bottom of the sea.

I want to love you madly.
I want to love you now. Yeah.
I want to love you madly, way.
I want to love you, love you...
Love you madly.

I don't want to hold back. I don't want to slip down.
I don't want to think back to the one thing that I know I should have done.

I don't want to doubt you. Know everything about you.
I don't want to sit across the table from you, wishing I could run.

I want to love you madly.
I want to love you now.
I want to love you madly, way.
I want to love you, love you...
Love you madly._


----------



## HappyKaty

Pbartender said:


> *Love You Madly*,


Ugh. Huge trigger.


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> Ugh. Huge trigger.


Try this one:

Ship has set sail, sea will prevail
Swallow the slaughter, drink the saltwater
Pawn of the power, sea will devour
Infinite day, awaiting the hour

[Chorus:]
Walk the plank
Walk the plank

Tied, ball and chain, infliction of pain
Vultures arise, death in their eyes
Under the gun, food supply: none
Knife in the back, nowhere to run

[Repeat chorus]

[Post-chorus:]
All hope is lost, been double-crossed
Legion of death, steal your last breath

The treachery of mutiny, lightning and thunder
Make the mind wonder
Water's infected, captain's arrested
Sharks in the water, body's ingested

[Repeat chorus]
[Repeat post-chorus] x2


----------



## Awakening2012

Whoa, Conrad! That's hard core


----------



## Conrad

Awakening2012 said:


> Whoa, Conrad! That's hard core


I figured there was a "Walk the Plank" out there somewhere.

I'm going to pull it up on Rhapsody.

On a serious note, The Butt Pirate insists "no man would allow this" as if Katy's boundary about cruising for ass with his wingman wasn't reasonable.

I can safely say had I done what he did (gotten posOW's number from a "friend"), I would find that boundary eminently reasonable and would just be happy my wife didn't insist I write the scumbag a no contact letter.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> Try this one:
> 
> Ship has set sail, sea will prevail
> Swallow the slaughter, drink the saltwater
> Pawn of the power, sea will devour
> Infinite day, awaiting the hour
> 
> [Chorus:]
> Walk the plank
> Walk the plank
> 
> Tied, ball and chain, infliction of pain
> Vultures arise, death in their eyes
> Under the gun, food supply: none
> Knife in the back, nowhere to run
> 
> [Repeat chorus]
> 
> [Post-chorus:]
> All hope is lost, been double-crossed
> Legion of death, steal your last breath
> 
> The treachery of mutiny, lightning and thunder
> Make the mind wonder
> Water's infected, captain's arrested
> Sharks in the water, body's ingested
> 
> [Repeat chorus]
> [Repeat post-chorus] x2


Impressive. I wanna laugh, but I'm amazed at how accurately this depicts his future.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> I would just be happy my wife didn't insist I write the scumbag a no contact letter.


Ummm, I did. And, he did, with no hesitation. It was the whole staying-faithful-thing that stumped him.


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> Ummm, I did. And, he did, with no hesitation. It was the whole staying-faithful-thing that stumped him.


I guess he meant it when he did it.

But, there has to be some sort of trust. For example, there's no earthly way you'd have insisted he never could see this dude (meaning forever), as long as you were around when it happened.

I mean, for God's sake... look how many times you've taken him back. You would have rewarded a real effort.

Too bad it's not in him.


----------



## HappyKaty

Conrad said:


> Too bad it's not in him.


It's good, though. 

I've wasted too much of my life with unhealthy men that are incapable of appreciating the woman that I am. 

I'm actually looking forward to experiencing a real relationship void of number threes.


----------



## Conrad

HappyKaty said:


> It's good, though.
> 
> I've wasted too much of my life with unhealthy men that are incapable of appreciating the woman that I am.
> 
> I'm actually looking forward to experiencing a real relationship void of number threes.


I get it.

But, I've walked through that valley myself.

Your future is quite bright.


----------



## zillard

This stuff is all great, guys. Keep posting - I'm loving reading it during my breaks packing. 

Brother Ali - Walking Away - YouTube


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> This stuff is all great, guys. Keep posting - I'm loving reading it during my breaks packing.
> 
> Brother Ali - Walking Away - YouTube


LOVE Brother Ali!

Bullet For My Valentine - Bittersweet Memories - YouTube


----------



## Pbartender

HappyKaty said:


> Ugh. Huge trigger.


Or how about this one, then...

*My Life*, by Billy Joel

_Got a call from an old friend we'd used to be real close. Said he couldn't go on the American way. Closed the shop, sold the house, bought a ticket to the West Coast. Now he gives them a stand-up routine in L.A.

I don't need you to worry for me, 'cause I'm all right. I don't want you to tell me it's time to come home. I don't care what you say anymore. This is my life. Go ahead with your own life... Leave me alone.

I never said you had to offer me a second chance. I never said I was a victim of circumstance.

I still belong. Don't get me wrong.

And you can speak your mind, but not on my time.

They will tell you, you can't sleep alone in a strange place. Then they'll tell you can't sleep with somebody else. Ah, but sooner or later you sleep in your own space.

Either way it's okay... You wake up with yourself._


----------



## HappyKaty

Much better, Pb. 

Listen to this one. We've all thrown stone letters, recently.

Tomahawk - "Stone Letter" (Official Music Video) - YouTube


----------



## Pbartender

HappyKaty said:


> Much better, Pb.


No worries... I'm getting to the point where it's more about preparing for future relationships, than letting go of the previous one.

Gives a little bit of a different perspective to a song like _Love You Madly_.


----------



## HappyKaty

Pbartender said:


> No worries... I'm getting to the point where it's more about preparing for future relationships, than letting go of the previous one.
> 
> Gives a little bit of a different perspective to a song like _Love You Madly_.


Oh, it was just because BP put that song on a cd he made for me, when ge was trying to get me back. Haha. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

HappyKaty said:


> Much better, Pb.
> 
> Listen to this one. We've all thrown stone letters, recently.
> 
> Tomahawk - "Stone Letter" (Official Music Video) - YouTube


Oh I have been. Lovin their new album!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

HappyKaty said:


> Oh, it was just because BP put that song on a cd he made for me, when ge was trying to get me back. Haha.


Heh... What terrible way to ruin a good song.

Here's one I've got stuck in my head this weekend...

I'm Shakin', by Little Willie John

...and...

Jack White's more recent cover of the same song.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Oh I have been. Lovin their new album!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mhmmm...me, too! I love Typhoon.


----------



## zillard

X answered the phone tonight when I called to say goodnight to D at 8. 

D was on the laptop watching funny videos "with other people and somebody else's house" while x and a few other people are laughing in the background. 

Quality time with D before the move.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

That would have shocked me a few months ago

after following your story, it's more "expected"


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> X answered the phone tonight when I called to say goodnight to D at 8.
> 
> D was on the laptop watching funny videos "with other people and somebody else's house" while x and a few other people are laughing in the background.
> 
> Quality time with D before the move.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She was just returning the truck.


----------



## zillard

I sit in my near empty office, preparing to take down the work computers (some of the last things to go and first to be unpacked). Bedrooms and bathrooms are empty, and boxes are ready to load. 

Only one full day left in this house, in this state. The first place I purchased with hopes of settling down as a family. I remember the joy I felt getting the keys and walking my little family through the front door. Unpacking and setting things up just so. Envisioning how we would improve it together to make it just right for us. 

Our first summer here playing in the sprinklers. The bbqs with friends. The laughing and fun with my daughter. The first Christmas in our own home. Swimming in the pool. Camping in the backyard. Flying kites in the park. 

And as much as I enjoyed those times, I can now see how disengaged X was even then. Yes, there was some history rewriting, but it is true that she had been pulling away for years. Many of those memories are of D and me, with X upstairs in bed, or off to the sidelines, sitting on the porch watching without participating. 

Not in the pool with us, not in the sprinklers, not in the tent. Those activities simply were not done as a happily engaged family. 

So as I prepare to move on, physically this time, I thank her. It took this for me to step back and see my delusion for what it was. She was never truly happy in this house. Nor was I. 

Those memories that I enjoy are still there, and I am thankful. I will always cherish them as I've had a blast with my daughter. But I was not happily married. 

D7 and I embark on a new adventure tomorrow. Where we will create new, lasting memories even more exciting than the others. With loving family that will participate. It will no longer just be her and me, both laughing and having fun, but frequently glancing over wishing for someone seemingly present to share the moment with us.


----------



## Lifescript

Z, 

I can relate to this. Doing stuff and the W not really being there. I guess both husband and wife sometimes convince themselves that they are happy when they are really not. How can you be happy in your marriage when you are not happy yourself. Sadly, it takes a major life changing event to force us to look inside. You are on the right path. All the best to you and D on your new exciting journey.


----------



## HappyKaty

Best of luck, Z! You and D7 surely deserve it!


----------



## Awakening2012

Good luck, and keep us posted! You've been such an inspiration -- rock on!


----------



## zillard

X called. Wondering if I got a check for her in the mail from her grandma.

Z - I don't know. I'm loading. If I get a check I will let you know. 

Text directly after. 

X - if you could please check the mail as soon as possible granma said she would greatly appreciate it. I would too. She's fairly certain she sent the envelope there and is really concerned about it. 

She must have forgot today was a holiday. 

Email after. 

X - I dropped my phone in water and now it's not working. Headed to the phone store now to fix and or replace it. If you need to contact me please email. 

I don't need to. 

Text later. 

X - got the phone issues sorted. 

Z - yours or d7s? No check here. 

X - for me. It must have gotten lost. 

Z - I'm sorry to hear that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

She can get her phone replaced in hours. 

But won't add a line for her daughter which would cost next to nothing. 

If her check comes here tomorrow it's getting forwarded to my new place. 

That must suck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

Z, the more you want to understand the greater the puzzle it becomes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThreeStrikes

I'm jealous, Z. At least you get to move far away from your disordered X.

I wish my X didn't want anything to do with my kids...consider yourself lucky, in a way


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> I sit in my near empty office, preparing to take down the work computers (some of the last things to go and first to be unpacked). Bedrooms and bathrooms are empty, and boxes are ready to load.
> 
> Only one full day left in this house, in this state. The first place I purchased with hopes of settling down as a family. I remember the joy I felt getting the keys and walking my little family through the front door. Unpacking and setting things up just so. Envisioning how we would improve it together to make it just right for us.
> 
> Our first summer here playing in the sprinklers. The bbqs with friends. The laughing and fun with my daughter. The first Christmas in our own home. Swimming in the pool. Camping in the backyard. Flying kites in the park.
> 
> And as much as I enjoyed those times, I can now see how disengaged X was even then. Yes, there was some history rewriting, but it is true that she had been pulling away for years. Many of those memories are of D and me, with X upstairs in bed, or off to the sidelines, sitting on the porch watching without participating.
> 
> Not in the pool with us, not in the sprinklers, not in the tent. Those activities simply were not done as a happily engaged family.
> 
> So as I prepare to move on, physically this time, I thank her. It took this for me to step back and see my delusion for what it was. She was never truly happy in this house. Nor was I.
> 
> Those memories that I enjoy are still there, and I am thankful. I will always cherish them as I've had a blast with my daughter. But I was not happily married.
> 
> D7 and I embark on a new adventure tomorrow. Where we will create new, lasting memories even more exciting than the others. With loving family that will participate. It will no longer just be her and me, both laughing and having fun, but frequently glancing over wishing for someone seemingly present to share the moment with us.


That was beautiful Z. Takes me back to similar memories. The walks around the neighborhood. The playing in the backyard. Playing with the neighborhood kids in the street. All things she never, ever participated in. 

She's still in that house with the kids. I still talk to the neighbors. They ask if there's something wrong with her as they never see her. I just want to shout, "have you ever seen her?" It's not their fault but dang. 

You are doing the right thing. You know that. It's unfortunate it didn't work out but in the (not so) long run it will be her loss.


----------



## Chuck71

"Did my check come" "my cell phone, i can't live without it, i bow to it"

yeah.......all too familiar. I thought I was reading my thread there for a second.
But the last look, I remember the night before the D was final, staying in one of my rental apartments, the one we were married in, lived in for six years. yeah it was tough.

I was attached to ex's son when he was young. And a lot of times we would be engaged in something and she would want no part of it. In her defense, some things were 'guy things' but most were not. Something is really f'ed up when you got along better with MiL than wife. 

If things are as she stated, she should be a few states away with her 'new soul mate'. Didn't have enough cash to pay bills, feed her dogs, put gas in her car but some way, had the cash to travel 500 miles. But I'm sure he wired her the cash! LOL

Left behind her parents, grandparents photos, her child's baby pictures (mom told me if I ever lost mine, she'd have a hit out on me), keepsakes, her son's fav fire truck, and her mother's remembrance video. 90% saw the dump. The rest would had I not thought anything of her oldest brother. I pulled back her dad's journals, pictures and a few things when he returns. 

When he gets out, he must serve ten years of 'minimum house arrest'. He planned to stay with us. Had no problem with that. Nothing against him but that is not going to occur now. A visit, wonderful! But he will not be permitted to reside here. It's funny how one person can do so much damage to friends and family. 

Even with my ex, her son is lost but now that she has galloped across the country to the first guy who said 'you gotta nice a$$', he is completely lost. He can't find any solice from me, I'm planning to put him in jail. Her one sane brother will be without a home when he gets out (must reside with record free family those ten years).

But I'd love to hear her version of the re-written history she spewed at her soul mate!


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> She can get her phone replaced in hours.
> 
> But won't add a line for her daughter which would cost next to nothing.
> 
> If her check comes here tomorrow it's getting forwarded to my new place.
> 
> That must suck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't listen to what they say.

Watch what they do.


----------



## zillard

Got up after sleeping on the floor in the now empty house. Ready to finish up a little cleaning, sign final docs for the house sale, and then go pick up my princess and start the drive. 

I saw I received a message from tiger a half hour previous. It was a link to a song. 

Bob Marley, three little birds. 

She is so fn sweet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Awakening2012

Love it: "Don't you worry 'bout a thing, cause every little thing is gonna be alright"

Big day for you! Congrats on all you've accomplished and good luck with the move and transition. Have a safe trip!


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> I sit in my near empty office, preparing to take down the work computers (some of the last things to go and first to be unpacked). Bedrooms and bathrooms are empty, and boxes are ready to load.
> 
> Only one full day left in this house, in this state. The first place I purchased with hopes of settling down as a family. I remember the joy I felt getting the keys and walking my little family through the front door. Unpacking and setting things up just so. Envisioning how we would improve it together to make it just right for us.
> 
> Our first summer here playing in the sprinklers. The bbqs with friends. The laughing and fun with my daughter. The first Christmas in our own home. Swimming in the pool. Camping in the backyard. Flying kites in the park.
> 
> And as much as I enjoyed those times, I can now see how disengaged X was even then. Yes, there was some history rewriting, but it is true that she had been pulling away for years. Many of those memories are of D and me, with X upstairs in bed, or off to the sidelines, sitting on the porch watching without participating.
> 
> Not in the pool with us, not in the sprinklers, not in the tent. Those activities simply were not done as a happily engaged family.
> 
> So as I prepare to move on, physically this time, I thank her. It took this for me to step back and see my delusion for what it was. She was never truly happy in this house. Nor was I.
> 
> Those memories that I enjoy are still there, and I am thankful. I will always cherish them as I've had a blast with my daughter. But I was not happily married.
> 
> D7 and I embark on a new adventure tomorrow. Where we will create new, lasting memories even more exciting than the others. With loving family that will participate. It will no longer just be her and me, both laughing and having fun, but frequently glancing over wishing for someone seemingly present to share the moment with us.


Very Similiar to my story too Z. I guess I am still under the delusion that we were happy, but like your X, mine hasnt participated in much with the kids. It was always me taking them to the park, me playing outside with them, me making them frozen stuff. Often times she was upstairs taking a nap all afternoon (being a SAHM with no kids at home most days wears you out i guess).

Travel safe Z...and stay online when you get there!!


----------



## Ceegee

Can't wait to hear how the moving is going and how D is doing after saying goodbye to mom. 

Hope all is well Z.


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> I sit in my near empty office, preparing to take down the work computers (some of the last things to go and first to be unpacked). Bedrooms and bathrooms are empty, and boxes are ready to load.
> 
> Only one full day left in this house, in this state. The first place I purchased with hopes of settling down as a family. I remember the joy I felt getting the keys and walking my little family through the front door. Unpacking and setting things up just so. Envisioning how we would improve it together to make it just right for us.
> 
> Our first summer here playing in the sprinklers. The bbqs with friends. The laughing and fun with my daughter. The first Christmas in our own home. Swimming in the pool. Camping in the backyard. Flying kites in the park.
> 
> And as much as I enjoyed those times, I can now see how disengaged X was even then. Yes, there was some history rewriting, but it is true that she had been pulling away for years. Many of those memories are of D and me, with X upstairs in bed, or off to the sidelines, sitting on the porch watching without participating.
> 
> Not in the pool with us, not in the sprinklers, not in the tent. Those activities simply were not done as a happily engaged family.
> 
> So as I prepare to move on, physically this time, I thank her. It took this for me to step back and see my delusion for what it was. She was never truly happy in this house. Nor was I.
> 
> Those memories that I enjoy are still there, and I am thankful. I will always cherish them as I've had a blast with my daughter. But I was not happily married.
> 
> D7 and I embark on a new adventure tomorrow. Where we will create new, lasting memories even more exciting than the others. With loving family that will participate. It will no longer just be her and me, both laughing and having fun, but frequently glancing over wishing for someone seemingly present to share the moment with us.


This.....this made me cry...same situation, X sat on the couch while D and I blew out her bday candles, walked ahead of us on our way to the parade, slept while we got ready for work and school, got drunk with the guys while we opened presents xmas eve....no family time, it was me and D time and X was....just there....

Thank you, as much as this made me cry, it also will help me tremendously in my therapy appointment today. 

I am so glad you were able to move on and I hope you and your D find peace. I feel so sad for your X in a way but she could have turned it around, stepped up but like my X, she has other priorities. Her regrets are no longer yours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

Zillard's ex was unable/unwilling to walk through an open door.


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## familyfirst09

I honestly honestly still don't get it, in any of these situations. How a person can walk away from a child that they brought into this world (one way or another in my case) and a spouse that would walk on mars to find peace and happiness and love with them, as a family unit. I don't think I will ever understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash.

familyfirst09 said:


> I honestly honestly still don't get it, in any of these situations. How a person can walk away from a child that they brought into this world (one way or another in my case) and a spouse that would walk on mars to find peace and happiness and love with them, as a family unit. I don't think I will ever understand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unless you've been abused you won't ever understand.

People like Z's ex can barely function themselves much less care for a child.

I joke I wouldn't leave a house plant with my parents.

Just because someone can breed doesn't mean they are capable of love, happiness and kindness.


----------



## hope4family

Mavash. said:


> Unless you've been abused you won't ever understand.
> 
> People like Z's ex can barely function themselves much less care for a child.
> 
> I joke I wouldn't leave a house plant with my parents.
> 
> Just because someone can breed doesn't mean they are capable of love, happiness and kindness.


Bingo. 

My brother was talking to me the other day. He said something and it was a light bulb going off in my head. 

"What your ex-wife did isn't something you just do, it's not normal or healthy. It's a LEARNED trait. She is repeating the actions of her family."

It reminded me of when she kept telling me "I don't want a marriage like my parents." Couldn't understand why she would say that. Told her I don't get it, how could we have the same marriage as them if I love her. 

Silence. That silence was the answer.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: What to do with "I don't know".*



Mavash. said:


> Unless you've been abused you won't ever understand.
> 
> People like Z's ex can barely function themselves much less care for a child.
> 
> I joke I wouldn't leave a house plant with my parents.
> 
> Just because someone can breed doesn't mean they are capable of love, happiness and kindness.


I get a little confused with this. I guess it's a matter of understanding they are damaged but also not condoning what they do. Do they deserve a little break for being damaged? Maybe to a point? I'm not sure. Most figure out at some point that something is wrong but seems like none or only a few go through the pain of fixing themselves.


----------



## Conrad

Lifescript said:


> I get a little confused with this. I guess it's a matter of understanding they are damaged but also not condoning what they do. Do they deserve a little break for being damaged? Maybe to a point? I'm not sure. Most figure out at some point that something is wrong but seems like none or only a few go through the pain of fixing themselves.


Script,

To "fix yourself", you have to acknowledge something is wrong.

The PTSD kicks in.... you fear harsh punishment for your flaw.

And, you blame your spouse.

Look at the conversation Rat just had.

Same as all the rest of 'em.


----------



## Pbartender

Lifescript said:


> I guess it's a matter of understanding they are damaged but also not condoning what they do.


_"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."_ *- Aristotle*


----------



## BetrayedNoMore

hope4family said:


> Bingo.
> 
> My brother was talking to me the other day. He said something and it was a light bulb going off in my head.
> 
> "What your ex-wife did isn't something you just do, it's not normal or healthy. It's a LEARNED trait. She is repeating the actions of her family."
> 
> It reminded me of when she kept telling me "I don't want a marriage like my parents." Couldn't understand why she would say that. Told her I don't get it, how could we have the same marriage as them if I love her.
> 
> Silence. That silence was the answer.


That hits so close to home its not even funny. I wish someone would have said that to me 10 years ago! History shall repeat and shall watch from 50,000 feet.


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## zillard

Arrived safe at my parent's house. Staying here for a day or two while I unload and set up the new place. D7 did great on the trip. Once we arrived she clammed up though, and was extra clingly at bedtime. She is clearly sad and stressed. Of course she is. Big changes and things are still in limbo until she has a room to call her own again. 

I'll write about the goodbye at X's after I review the VAR. 

X did ask me to provide travel updates. I agreed to do so. 

We stopped to eat in a small town today. 

Z - Eating in Beaver


----------



## Chuck71

D7s a trooper! Couldn't hug her enough. Take a few days to get your thoughts in order...and reflect. You went through 'a war' and won. Now as you are departing, the other side will implode from within. Be prepared to feel sympathetic to them...... her crash will be epic.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Glad you made it okay, Z. Chucky is right, remember to give D7 extra hugs and attention right now, the boxes can wait. Best of luck, kid.


----------



## zillard

"You have to decide what your highest priorities are and have the courage - pleasantly, smilingly, nonapologetically - to say 'no' to other things. And the way to do that is by having a bigger 'yes' burning inside." - Covey

Cool, Firm, Dispassionate. 

A best friend since grade school showed up when having a bbq at my parent's house. He is mess. Lost his kids, battling addiction, in and out of jail. Earlier he told my mother that he thought when I returned to town it would fix everything (I was always a big enabler to him). 

He told me his life was terrible. I replied that the only one who could fix that was him. He asked if I was going to church. I told him no, but therapy really helps. 

He asked where I'm living. I did not give him my address. Did not give him my phone number. I told him I need to stay away in order to avoid jeopardizing my custody of D7. 

He left and told me to stay in touch. 

Z - Take care of yourself.


----------



## Ceegee

Good to hear from you Z. 

Toxic friends aren't good for anyone. Good call.


----------



## Bullwinkle

You did what you had to do, Z. Family and their security trumps everything else.


----------



## lostLove77

Hi Z - congrats on getting here. I wish you the best in this brand new chapter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Now getting settled in at the short term apartment. Its nice enough but quite a change from the big house (proceeds came through which is nice). 

The day we left my lil brothers and I went to x's apt to pick up d7. I sent my bros off to get food so x and d could take their time saying goodbye. 

During their last weekend together before the move x and d went out to eat, went to a movie, and to a house party. All with "someone else". 

We spent time laughing and tickling, keeping it light for the most part. I told d I had walkie talkies so she could talk to me in the moving truck during the drive. Also how I had her dvd player set up with her favorites and a cooler full of healthy snacks. X then gave her a bag of candy and told me she had cheese and potato chips for breakfast. 

X - I want you to have fun on your trip. 

D - you're crying. I know it. 

X - I know I am. You keep calling me out on it. 

D - I know when you're gonna cry. 

X - where are the boys? I love you baby girl. 

D - I want you to go to. 

X - I'm not coming with. I'm staying here. 

D - why aren't you?

X - because I'm staying here. 

D - I want you to come too. 

X - I'm not going to utah. 

D - but I want you to. 

X - I know. 

D - and I'll miss the recliner. 

X - you can still come and visit. 

D - I really like the recliner. 

It was clear d hit her emotional limit and was changing the subject. She did not get teary during the goodbye. 

The bros returned and we all went out to the parking lot. X buckled d in to her seat and said goodbye.

X was breaking down in tears. Was unable to look me in the eyes. I did not hug her. I did not say goodbye to her. I simply climbed into the truck and started driving away. As I passed where she was standing I looked at her and waved. She waved back, then covered her mouth with her hands, sobbing. 

The trip went well. D was a trooper. I had her call her mom when we stopped at the hotel, when we left in the morning, and when we arrived at our destination. 

She spent a couple days playing with her cousins and grandma while I unloaded and setup essentials in the new place (I stayed at grandmas with her in the evenings).

It is now our second night in the new apt. D has had her own mobile phone for 2 days now, which she won't let out of her sight and loves talking to her mom on it. 

I met up with T for coffee one day. The next day she came over to help me "unpack" while d was with her cousins. D loves spending time with them and asks daily to go to grandmas (her lil cousins live next door). T and I will be going camping this weekend. 

This new chapter is shaping up quite well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

I asked D what she thinks of the new place. She said she really likes it. She likes how I set up her bedroom and especially loves splashing around in the pool with me in the afternoons. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lifescript

Z, 

It's great to Zee  things are going well. The goodbye and D telling her mom she wanted her to come almost had me in tears. 

Keep us posted bro.


----------



## zillard

A bit of wisdom from the new jungle book cartoon:

Find out what you are afraid of, mancub. Only then will you know how brave you truly are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Someone (Lifescript I believe) previously asked me if T challenges me.

We are signing up for a half marathon later in the summer and she wants me to do crossfit training with her. 

So, yeah. We aren't just camping this weekend... We are backpacking.

The best part - none of this is a #3, just good motivation.

Lovin it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## catcalls

zillard said:


> Now getting settled in at the short term apartment. Its nice enough but quite a change from the big house (proceeds came through which is nice).
> 
> The day we left my lil brothers and I went to x's apt to pick up d7. I sent my bros off to get food so x and d could take their time saying goodbye.
> 
> During their last weekend together before the move x and d went out to eat, went to a movie, and to a house party. All with "someone else".
> 
> We spent time laughing and tickling, keeping it light for the most part. I told d I had walkie talkies so she could talk to me in the moving truck during the drive. Also how I had her dvd player set up with her favorites and a cooler full of healthy snacks. X then gave her a bag of candy and told me she had cheese and potato chips for breakfast.
> 
> X - I want you to have fun on your trip.
> 
> D - you're crying. I know it.
> 
> X - I know I am. You keep calling me out on it.
> 
> D - I know when you're gonna cry.
> 
> X - where are the boys? I love you baby girl.
> 
> D - I want you to go to.
> 
> X - I'm not coming with. I'm staying here.
> 
> D - why aren't you?
> 
> X - because I'm staying here.
> 
> D - I want you to come too.
> 
> X - I'm not going to utah.
> 
> D - but I want you to.
> 
> X - I know.
> 
> D - and I'll miss the recliner.
> 
> X - you can still come and visit.
> 
> D - I really like the recliner.
> 
> It was clear d hit her emotional limit and was changing the subject. She did not get teary during the goodbye.
> 
> The bros returned and we all went out to the parking lot. X buckled d in to her seat and said goodbye.
> 
> X was breaking down in tears. Was unable to look me in the eyes. I did not hug her. I did not say goodbye to her. I simply climbed into the truck and started driving away. As I passed where she was standing I looked at her and waved. She waved back, then covered her mouth with her hands, sobbing.
> 
> The trip went well. D was a trooper. I had her call her mom when we stopped at the hotel, when we left in the morning, and when we arrived at our destination.
> 
> She spent a couple days playing with her cousins and grandma while I unloaded and setup essentials in the new place (I stayed at grandmas with her in the evenings).
> 
> It is now our second night in the new apt. D has had her own mobile phone for 2 days now, which she won't let out of her sight and loves talking to her mom on it.
> 
> I met up with T for coffee one day. The next day she came over to help me "unpack" while d was with her cousins. D loves spending time with them and asks daily to go to grandmas (her lil cousins live next door). T and I will be going camping this weekend.
> 
> This new chapter is shaping up quite well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i think you handled it very well. let them be emotional and say good bye, but you did not get involved with her, which is right as she is now the X.

It feels so needless, this separation doesnt it? why she is not polishing her cv and looking for a job near her daughter is beyond me. i understand that she cannot move instantly, but she had known this would happen for months. does she live for the moment, and cant think beyond the absolute short term future?

anyway, your daughter is the one that suffers. she is deprived of a mother who should be there with her.


----------



## Northern Monkey

Z as ever, an inspiration on how to deal with these things.

I too wonder about the X not following d now the work issue is not there.

Z, does she have a lot of personal ties to where she still is? I just ask as my situation being the one to move away of my own choice, makes me tempted to emphasise with X.


----------



## zillard

Northern Monkey said:


> Z as ever, an inspiration on how to deal with these things.
> 
> I too wonder about the X not following d now the work issue is not there.
> 
> Z, does she have a lot of personal ties to where she still is? I just ask as my situation being the one to move away of my own choice, makes me tempted to emphasise with X.


The only things x has where she lives is a mother she hasn't seen in years, a brother she has seen twice in 3 years, and her new friends from work. 

It is not about local ties. It is about fear and defiance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern Monkey

One thing I have to watch for with TAM, is projecting my own stuff so needed to ask.

Nothing there that should stop her. Hopefully she will have an epiphany but its staring to look like something of a hail mary hope I suppose.

Not just blowing smoke up your ass Z, but of all the threads on TAM, I really do find your story and how you interact with people now truly inspiring.


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## warlock07

Or maybe she met someone new..


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## Conrad

I'm struck by how fantastic it is to have people ready to help us "unpack"


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## catcalls

Conrad said:


> I'm struck by how fantastic it is to have people ready to help us "unpack"


true, althought i find packing up really painful, unpacking is not so bad.


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## zillard

Conrad said:


> I'm struck by how fantastic it is to have people ready to help us "unpack"


Yes. Breaking in a new place is always enjoyable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

As a parting gift, X got D7 a bottle of perfume... just like her mommy's.


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## Tron

zillard said:


> As a parting gift, X got D7 a bottle of perfume... just like her mommy's.


That's just great. X is so thoughtful! 

Hmmm. That one may need to go into the back of the medicine cabinet...hopefully never to be seen again.


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## zillard

Tron said:


> That's just great. X is so thoughtful!
> 
> Hmmm. That one may need to go into the back of the medicine cabinet...hopefully never to be seen again.


It's hilarious how they think they are actually being sneaky. :rofl:


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## zillard

warlock07 said:


> Or maybe she met someone new..


Yes, as far as I know Ringo and his truck are still around. 

Still... she has no good excuse. Her mind was made up before he came around. 

She especially has no excuse for not visiting (she's actually supposed to have D for the summer, not me). 

She received half of the profit from the house, which should cover PLENTY of trips to come see her daughter.

Well - if she gets a job and doesn't live off of it.



Oh yeah, it's X we're talking about.


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## Chuck71

Yo Ringo may need a new transmission

or a tooth filled

or a fifth of Vodka

weekend trip for D.....nah....cuts into "me time"

PUKE


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## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yes, as far as I know Ringo and his truck are still around.
> 
> Still... she has no good excuse. Her mind was made up before he came around.
> 
> She especially has no excuse for not visiting (she's actually supposed to have D for the summer, not me).
> 
> She received half of the profit from the house, which should cover PLENTY of trips to come see her daughter.
> 
> Well - if she gets a job and doesn't live off of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, it's X we're talking about.


She'll think about THAT tomorrow. For, tomorrow is another day.


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## staystrong

I still do not understand your wife, Z. I simply don't understand what her motivations are. How much insight does she have into her own thought process, would you say? Is she an intelligent woman?


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## zillard

staystrong said:


> I still do not understand your wife, Z. I simply don't understand what her motivations are. How much insight does she have into her own thought process, would you say? Is she an intelligent woman?


She is very intelligent. 

Gifted programs in grade school. Honors in high school. Straight A's in college. 

But emotionally she is still a child. When all is well, she does great. 

All is not well for her now.


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## Mavash.

I think intelligence is a negative when it comes to broken people.


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## 06Daddio08

It's like those episodes of Hoarders, no one knows that the scientist down the road goes home to a house full of rat sh!t and moldy garbage on the ground. Yet, when they go to work, they're a genius.

Recently, I heard the story of someone who works for a pretty in-depth part of the government ... who just had a complete mental break down while overseas. Runs in the family.

Sad, as he has a great girl (a friend of mine) who really cared for him, but his own stupidity and self abuse triggered it. Complete lack of ownership.


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## Conrad

Mavash. said:


> I think intelligence is a negative when it comes to broken people.


I would agree with this.

Broken people have trust issues.

Strong intellect actually feeds the conspiracy engine, the blame engine, and the excuse myself engine.


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## Chuck71

After reading 06Ds post lol I had to laugh

I have a room in the old garage filled with old ballcards from my youth and later

million cards but ask me where any one is, can talk you straight to it

It is guarded by my Star Wars comics collection from 1977-86


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## Ceegee

Conrad said:


> I would agree with this.
> 
> Broken people have trust issues.
> 
> Strong intellect actually feeds the conspiracy engine, the blame engine, and the excuse myself engine.


I can vouch for this.


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## zillard

Yes, like x getting fired. She said she had not expected them to fire the best employee with 100 percent accuracy rate. Best? Clearly not. 100 percent? Probably true. She excels at what she does. When her troubles do not get in the way. 

And accuracy will not distract from erratic behavior and intoxication. No matter how good you are. But she could not see that. Or at least not admit it. 

I switched my auto insurance and converted home to renters coverage. Turns out I save over 400 a year on auto while increasing coverage. And I'm getting a check for 500 back from the home policy. 

For a minute I was going to split it. Started an email. Caught myself and stepped back. I paid the insurance and mortgage for the last 6 months alone. F'her. 

Still sent an email though. Itemized expenses from prepping the house. Weed control, plumber, etc. And demanded reimbursement for half, as previously discussed. 

Also informed her of run in with toxic friend (as required by the clause as he's a felon) and my dismissal of him. 

Surprise... She did not call D7 to say goodnight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soca70

catcalls said:


> i think you handled it very well. let them be emotional and say good bye, but you did not get involved with her, which is right as she is now the X.
> 
> It feels so needless, this separation doesnt it? why she is not polishing her cv and looking for a job near her daughter is beyond me. i understand that she cannot move instantly, but she had known this would happen for months. does she live for the moment, and cant think beyond the absolute short term future?
> 
> anyway, your daughter is the one that suffers. she is deprived of a mother who should be there with her.


This. I still can't see how she did this. It bothers me so much.


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## Awakening2012

zillard said:


> Turns out I save over 400 a year on auto while increasing coverage. And I'm getting a check for 500 back from the home policy.
> 
> For a minute I was going to split it. Started an email. Caught myself and stepped back. I paid the insurance and mortgage for the last 6 months alone. F'her.


Bonus -- nice! 

It is so sad and bizarre that she does not call her daughter, unless she has really gone off the deep end and had a mental break down of some sort


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## zillard

Awakening2012 said:


> Bonus -- nice!
> 
> It is so sad and bizarre that she does not call her daughter, unless she has really gone off the deep end and had a mental break down of some sort


How do you define mental breakdown? I think she has these on a small level very frequently. 

The fact that she is where she is, childless, jobless, divorced, shows that she is in the deep end... treading water.

Able to stay afloat at times.

Sinking a bit, then back up.

Email from X at 1am:

Thank you. The only two people in [hometown] that I have any real concern about are [toxic friend 1] and [toxic friend 2]. They both make me particularly uneasy. 

Hopefully neither one will be a concern in the future. 

Again, thank you for keeping me informed. 

I will send a money order asap. 

----------

Those familiar with the anger cycle will likely recognize this as the honeymoon phase. 

She probably didn't like the email demanding money. So she imploded. Then recognized that while in that chaos she failed to reach out to her daughter. Felt bad about it. Thought I would be angry about it. So responded nicely to try to smooth things over without acknowledging any fault. 

Next will be a "pretend everything is normal" phase, leading to another buildup. Which will result in either another implosion or an explosion. 

Repeat.


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## Chuck71

how different is the weather there than your previous residence?


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## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Those familiar with the anger cycle will likely recognize this as the honeymoon phase.
> 
> She probably didn't like the email demanding money. So she imploded. Then recognized that while in that chaos she failed to reach out to her daughter. Felt bad about it. Thought I would be angry about it. So responded nicely to try to smooth things over without acknowledging any fault.
> 
> Next will be a "pretend everything is normal" phase, leading to another buildup. Which will result in either another implosion or an explosion.
> 
> Repeat.


Heh... Yeah... That's familiar, all right... I think you just described the entire 15 years of my marriage up until now.


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## Awakening2012

zillard said:


> How do you define mental breakdown? I think she has these on a small level very frequently.
> 
> The fact that she is where she is, childless, jobless, divorced, shows that she is in the deep end... treading water.
> 
> Able to stay afloat at times.
> 
> Sinking a bit, then back up.


Yikes, sorry she is failing to thrive. It's a good thing she's not your problem anymore, except as regards to communications involving your daughter. I hope she can get her act together, because if she is going to remain this dysfunctional and unreliable (e.g. toxic.) then in some ways it is probably for the best she does not try to be more involved in your little girl's life. 

Hope you are enjoying your shiny new chapter!

Best,- A12


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## Chuck71

Z.......Be aware, X will reach a low point of low and it is possible

she will show up at your door, seeking the Old Z


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## zillard

Driving into town










View from the apartments










I keep thinking things can't get any better. And then they do.

I noticed there is a climbing gym and kiddy fun park right next to each other, just a quick walk through the parking lot. 

Yesterday D7 spent some time at her grandparent's house while I ran errands (getting new license plates, etc). When I returned she didn't want to leave. 

This is a good thing - she is very comfortable with them and enjoys her time there. She is warming up to the family quickly and values her time with them.

So I let her stay and play, and met up with Tiger for dinner.

Today I caught up at work after the week off. Now time to shop for a new washer and dryer.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Driving into town
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View from the apartments
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I keep thinking things can't get any better. And then they do.
> 
> I noticed there is a climbing gym and kiddy fun park right next to each other, just a quick walk through the parking lot.
> 
> Yesterday D7 spent some time at her grandparent's house while I ran errands (getting new license plates, etc). When I returned she didn't want to leave.
> 
> This is a good thing - she is very comfortable with them and enjoys her time there. She is warming up to the family quickly and values her time with them.
> 
> So I let her stay and play, and met up with Tiger for dinner.
> 
> Today I caught up at work after the week off. Now time to shop for a new washer and dryer.


Happy for both of you Z.

I can't wait until I'm able to work my way to where you're at right now.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Those familiar with the anger cycle will likely recognize this as the honeymoon phase.
> 
> She probably didn't like the email demanding money. So she imploded. Then recognized that while in that chaos she failed to reach out to her daughter. Felt bad about it. Thought I would be angry about it. So responded nicely to try to smooth things over without acknowledging any fault.
> 
> Next will be a "pretend everything is normal" phase, leading to another buildup. Which will result in either another implosion or an explosion.
> 
> Repeat.


This is how she's always been.

That nagging fear inside of you has prompted you to "cover" and rush out ahead of it and fix.


----------



## Chuck71

Awesome view......... are you now a Jazz fan??


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## doureallycare2

What a view, so pretty!


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## zillard

Conrad said:


> This is how she's always been.
> 
> That nagging fear inside of you has prompted you to "cover" and rush out ahead of it and fix.


Correct. And I can see that now because I can recognize how I have had my own trouble dealing with anger, falling into the same cycle. 

This is why saying no, refusing to do #3s, and speaking up when feeling slighted is imperative to happiness. 

And by owning my own anger and managing it, I can give others' anger back to them. 

By refusing to prevent/fix their anger, I give them opportunity. 

And free myself. 

Seeing their anger as theirs allows us to feel fine when they explode/implode.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

Queens of the Stone Age - Smooth Sailing - YouTube

It's all in motion
No stoppin' now
I've got nothin' to lose
And only one way up

I'm burning bridges
I destroy the mirage
Oh, visions of collisions
Fvckin 'bon voyage

It's all smooth sailing
From here on out

I got bruises and hickies
Stitches and scars
Got my own theme music
It plays wherever I are

Fear is the hand 
That pulls your strings
A useless toy
Pitiful plaything

I'm inflagranti
In every way

It's all smooth sailing
From here on out
I'm gon' do the damage
That needs gettin' done

God only knows
Where love vacations
If reason is priceless
There's no reason to pay for it

It's so easy to see
And so hard to find
Make a mountain of a mole hill
If the mole hill is mine

I hypnotize you
And no one can find you
I blow my load
Over the status quo
Here we go

I'm a little bit nonchalant 
But I dance
I'm risking it always
No second chance

It's gonna be smooth sailing
From here on out
I'm gon' do the damage
'Til the damage is done

God only knows
So mind your behavior
Follow prescriptions
Of your lord and savior

Every temple is gold
Every hook is designed
Hell is but the temple
Of the closed mind
Closed mind
Closed mind
Closed mind

It's all smooth sailing
From here on out


----------



## doureallycare2

zillard said:


> Correct. And I can see that now because I can recognize how I have had my own trouble dealing with anger, falling into the same cycle.
> 
> This is why saying no, refusing to do #3s, and speaking up when feeling slighted is imperative to happiness.
> 
> And by owning my own anger and managing it, I can give others' anger back to them.
> 
> By refusing to prevent/fix their anger, I give them opportunity.
> 
> And free myself.
> 
> Seeing their anger as theirs allows us to feel fine when they explode/implode.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I so see you and I as running parallel, funny how the opposite sex can have the same type of issues. I’m still trying to get a handle on mine. Not sure my therapist is the right one and I may be changing. Good luck with your progress!!


----------



## Conrad

doureallycare2 said:


> I so see you and I as running parallel, funny how the opposite sex can have the same type of issues. I’m still trying to get a handle on mine. Not sure my therapist is the right one and I may be changing. Good luck with your progress!!


Codependence knows no gender difference.


----------



## Garry2012

doureallycare2 said:


> I so see you and I as running parallel, funny how the opposite sex can have the same type of issues. I’m still trying to get a handle on mine. Not sure my therapist is the right one and I may be changing. Good luck with your progress!!


Yeah, Z is ahead of me in the process, but very similiar to my situation too. I keep up to see where my path (partibularly how to handle my X) may go and what Z did/didnt do and what z's X is doing/going through.


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## hope4family

I'm on the path. Just got to get ex-wife to stick to the parent plan. 

Way to go Z. Keep it up man.


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## zillard

And X's grass keeps getting greener. 

I just got a call from a catastrophic/emergency dental place, looking for X. 

Hmm, maybe she's getting some bling in her grill with the money from the house.


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## Chuck71

catastrophic/emergency dental place???????

Sounds as if you must be bleeding profusely to even entertain the thoughts of enacting the plan


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## zillard

After DDay, 2 months of in-house separation, 60 day waiting period before divorce was finalized, 3.5 months of joint sessions and kid swaps with the X, weekly IC, and finally the big move out of state with my D7, I am now climbing to new heights. 

I haven't felt better in longer than I can remember. I'm enjoying my life, my daughter, my work, my family, and my new personal freedom. 

And with that... I will now stop updating this thread, but will be starting a new one in Life After Divorce.

Thank you all, sincerely. TAM has been invaluable (and will continue to be, I'm sure).

Keep on keeping on. Find what you want in life and grab it.

And a big fat "NO" to everything else!


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> After DDay, 2 months of in-house separation, 60 day waiting period before divorce was finalized, 3.5 months of joint sessions and kid swaps with the X, weekly IC, and finally the big move out of state with my D7, I am now climbing to new heights.
> 
> I haven't felt better in longer than I can remember. I'm enjoying my life, my daughter, my work, my family, and my new personal freedom.
> 
> And with that... I will now stop updating this thread, but will be starting a new one in Life After Divorce.
> 
> Thank you all, sincerely. TAM has been invaluable (and will continue to be, I'm sure).
> 
> Keep on keeping on. Find what you want in life and grab it.
> 
> And a big fat "NO" to everything else!


You can't sign off here without telling us who took this picture.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> After DDay, 2 months of in-house separation, 60 day waiting period before divorce was finalized, 3.5 months of joint sessions and kid swaps with the X, weekly IC, and finally the big move out of state with my D7, I am now climbing to new heights.
> 
> I haven't felt better in longer than I can remember. I'm enjoying my life, my daughter, my work, my family, and my new personal freedom.
> 
> And with that... I will now stop updating this thread, but will be starting a new one in Life After Divorce.
> 
> Thank you all, sincerely. TAM has been invaluable (and will continue to be, I'm sure).
> 
> Keep on keeping on. Find what you want in life and grab it.
> 
> And a big fat "NO" to everything else!


Our little Z; all grown up.


----------



## Bullwinkle

Gonna miss you, Z. Thanks for everything.


----------



## ReGroup

This thread should be inducted into The TAM Hall of Fame.

Great job Z. 

I'll join Chucky, A12 and yourself in about 6 months!


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> You can't sign off here without telling us who took this picture.


The backpacking, skydiving, pistol-shooting, self-help reading, yoga stretchin' woman with the tiger tattoo.


----------



## hope4family

Just don't nuke the thread.


----------



## Chuck71

ReGroup said:


> This thread should be inducted into The TAM Hall of Fame.
> 
> Great job Z.
> 
> I'll join Chucky, A12 and yourself in about 6 months!




At her speed....you may never get D final. YIKES


Z, what's the new thread name??


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Z, what's the new thread name??


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/life-after-divorce/86433-z.html


----------



## Garry2012

so will this thread stay out there? I have thought of the same, but like to reread on occasion...so i dont lose my journey


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> so will this thread stay out there? I have thought of the same, but like to reread on occasion...so i dont lose my journey


Yes, no plans to nuke it. 

I also find it helpful to reread.

--------

Oh, this is more fitting for this thread as it ties up a loose end. 

As I was talking with Tiger last night on the phone she was suddenly surprised. X got on her facebook and liked T's photos of us together on our backpacking trip. 

This led to a convo about X and T getting along. I mentioned how X had previously told me and the child psych that she was talking to T about possibly staying at her house when she comes to visit D7. 

It never happened. 

T would like to get along with her, but has no desire to have a "sleepover". :rofl:


----------



## HappyKaty

Happy Father's Day, hun! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

