# Exhausted.



## otomerican (May 27, 2021)

About 5 years ago, I married an academic physician who was just getting her career started. Things were great with us and we had a lot of shared interests and fun together. The problem on the horizon though was of course the fact that she was a doctor: no time for sleep and she constantly complained about her job. Despite her not liking her job, the idea of switching to a slower paced career path was a non-starter for her. She wouldn't talk about switching careers. Fast forward a few years and we have two (wonderful) kids via in-vitro with even less sleep. Our life revolves around our kids and our jobs. Some of my in-laws have voiced concerns about this but, again, she won't really talk about it.

To make matters worse, her decision making abilities seemed to freeze up after having kids. No house was good enough, despite living in a city and only having so many options for places to live. No daycare was good enough for her during the pandemic and we had to invite both grandmothers to live with us and take care of the kids. We can't hire a housecleaner anymore. (pandemic) We can't have unvaccinated guests over. She insists on "green" insecticide in our lawn which is less effective. (welcome, ants) She doesn't believe in the cry-it-out method and our 9 month-old never sleeps well without feeding all night. So I'm always very tired while she's always extremely tired. (I spend a lot of time with the baby late at night) She's a packrat: belongings don't get thrown away, they get organized. Life turned into a long to-do list that will never be completed. I could go on and on about how rigid our life has become but I'm just trying to say that it all adds up. I married one of the most conscientious people on Earth and as a result, simplicity went out the window. So while we're compatible, our approaches to life are different. She's more conscientious while I'm a simplifier. But she refuses to accept this framing. To her it's just that I'm not happy.

Predictably, our relationship suffered greatly. We don't talk much to each other and have no time for shared interests. All talk is about the kids. Our sex life is infrequent and utilitarian (2-3 times a month) and she treats it as something that she endures to keep the marriage going. She just wants to cuddle while she sleeps. I've tried to talk this through with her but she's very evasive about it. I don't see what I can do differently anymore. That is, all I can do is try and do more work to crack away at the bottomless honey-do list, take care of the kids when I can and do chores when I can. This doesn't fix our sex life though and she's resolute that we're never on the same page. But it shouldn't be surprising that I'm disappointed: no sleep, she makes us take the hard road every time and sex only happens if the kids are asleep and she isn't sleeping and she isn't working. 

The unfortunate difference is I don't think we're working towards resolving the problem of having a failing love-life and being exhausted with kid issues at all times. She won't acknowledge that being overscheduled/exhausted/no-sex-drive is a problem; the problem is that I'm unhappy. This, again, appears to be evasiveness on her part. I guess I don't know what to do. I love my kids. I still love my wife. I just don't think she's taking responsibility for her part in the marriage. She won't talk about marital problems in depth or convince me how we'll ever reach equilibrium. I don't see how things can get better. I'm doubtful that counseling would help considering how evasive she is when it comes to admitting fault, but who knows. Would anyone have any advice for me on this?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

From what you've written, it sounds like your wife doesn't want to take responsibility for her issues. It's easier to attribute whatever is wrong in the marriage to your unhappiness. 

The thing is, YOU are unhappy. She isn't going to change. So what you see is what you get. That means it's up to you to decide if you can remain in the marriage as it is. Because, from where I'm sitting, it doesn't sound like it's going to change.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Does she say she is happy? Does she say she likes the way her life is and doesn’t think there needs to be any improvement?


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## otomerican (May 27, 2021)

Girl_power said:


> Does she say she is happy? Does she say she likes the way her life is and doesn’t think there needs to be any improvement?


We had a rare date a few weeks ago where the mother-in-law took care of the kids a couple weeks ago and went to an outdoor pub. They didn't have vegan food though so we left to find someplace else. But nothing close by was socially distanced or had food that she wanted. So we couldn't go anywhere to have dinner together. I was disappointed that she wouldn't participate and was too demanding. She was hurt that I was disappointed. After arguing, I resolved to save the date by driving to take out 10 miles away and we cheered up. It worked out in the end but that's frequently how we relate to each other now.

She's definitely unhappy at her job and constantly complains about it. And if I was out of the picture, I believe she'd be far less happy than she is now. I'm not so sure about how she would accomplish "improvement" in our lives though. She's more of the "work harder" type of person than the "I need to chill out" type of person.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

The years when the children are very young is always very exhausting even without you both working full time in tiring jobs. That will pass as they get past that very demanding baby/toddler age. 
The lockdowns have also made things worse in so many ways. 
I do think it's worth trying to find a good MC as she/he may be able to help you communicate better and work through your issues.
I hope you do all you can as you have very small children who need you both.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

The future outlook sounds grim. Her personality isn't going to change. Really. This is it.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

You are where you are because you have allowed it. It seems that she's the boss and you're the accommodating beta male to her wishes. Is she the main breadwinner? if she is then you have your answer (read about it). If she's not then like I said, you have allowed her to control all aspects of the relationship. You need to read "no more Mr. nice Guy".

There's very little that you can do to change her, all you can do is to change how YOU respond to her demands. Man up and take control of the situation. You need to be ready to be able to say to yourself: if it takes a divorce to get out of this situation, then divorce it is. Never use the word divorce in this type of situations if you are not ready or no guts to follow through, because, then she'll see you as weak male with no convictions; which translates lack of respect and not taking you seriously (empty threats).

I do not see a happy future for you if you continue the way things are, what i see is a very unhappy male wasting the best years of his life in a unfulfilled relationship which will make you bitter in the end.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

One of my closest girlfriends is a medical doctor, and I know from her how busy it is and also demanding. When she goes home from work, her workday isn't done; it's spent researching how best to treat her kids at the hospital. Your wife's job is probably much the same, and it's an admirable career choice that not many can do. BUT, if SHE isn't happy in it, then maybe it's time for a change. Not necessarily a different career; maybe to a different venue within her same career (hospital, clinic, researcher, etc.). Has she thought about these things? Maybe it's just the particular place she's at that she doesn't like.

As for her indecisiveness, there comes a point where you just have to **** or get off the pot; make a decision. As to the packrat, that's unhealthy behaviour, and things really do need to get thrown away. Think of your kids down the road when you guys pass away; does your wife really want your kids to be spending the next year going through box after box of garbage?

Sex: with a demanding career and 2 small children, yeah, I can imagine that sexy times are few and far between. Sex is important in a marriage though, and it takes effort to keep things alive. 

Is your wife a vegan by choice or by circumstance? If it's circumstance, I understand the troubles during your last date. If it's by choice, she should have sucked it up and eaten elsewhere. I used to live a keto lifestyle, but it was by choice, and if my BF and I wanted to go out to eat, I would have a non-keto meal that night. 

In all though, your wife really needs to open up and start a dialogue flowing between you two. Sure it can be a hard thing to do at times, but communication is necessary in a marriage. Have you asked her why she doesn't want to communicate? If she really won't open up to you, would she consider going to a therapist? Marriage counselling?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

otomerican said:


> I resolved to save the date by driving to take out 10 miles away and we cheered up.





otomerican said:


> if I was out of the picture, I believe she'd be far less happy than she is now.


Ah, I see ... So you somehow think you are responsible for making and keeping her happy. Classic codependency. And, as a woman, I can tell you that women don't particularly respect men who feel the need to fall all over themselves in order to keep us happy.

My guess is you'll stay, take her crap for years to come, and STILL feel unhappy about the situation. JMO.


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## otomerican (May 27, 2021)

Ursula said:


> One of my closest girlfriends is a medical doctor, and I know from her how busy it is and also demanding. When she goes home from work, her workday isn't done; it's spent researching how best to treat her kids at the hospital. Your wife's job is probably much the same, and it's an admirable career choice that not many can do. BUT, if SHE isn't happy in it, then maybe it's time for a change. Not necessarily a different career; maybe to a different venue within her same career (hospital, clinic, researcher, etc.). Has she thought about these things? Maybe it's just the particular place she's at that she doesn't like.
> ...
> Sex: with a demanding career and 2 small children, yeah, I can imagine that sexy times are few and far between. Sex is important in a marriage though, and it takes effort to keep things alive.
> ...
> In all though, your wife really needs to open up and start a dialogue flowing between you two. Sure it can be a hard thing to do at times, but communication is necessary in a marriage. Have you asked her why she doesn't want to communicate? If she really won't open up to you, would she consider going to a therapist? Marriage counselling?


With the medical doctor thing, what basically happened was she thought she was going to conduct a lot of studies for academia and only see some patients. In reality though, her work was mainly seeing a bunch of patients. She's holding onto the current job because leaving without publishing would mean departing academic medicine. And she is still holding onto the hope that she'll publish a bunch of studies in the future, which will likely never happen since she's been there for like 6 years and hasn't produced much, unfortunately.

I think the lack of sleep and mommy-mania has made her disagreeable in marriage. I suppose counseling is worth a shot but the frustrating thing is that we don't have much of a shared understanding of our problems. So she would insist that on our date, I was the one who didn't want to stay at the bar (because she wouldn't eat anything there) If she were to post here she would say I'm overly critical of her for everything. Which is not true, but that's what I'm up against when I appeal to reason about marital problems. Weirdly, she insists that sex isn't important to relationships. So, uh, red flag. A dialogue would be nice but it's like she just reverses anything I say. If the baby let her get more sleep I think things would be better.

I don't personally think I'm co-dependent or responsible for her happiness. All things being equal I'd rather take the long shot of keeping things alive than just be a father on weekends. The freedom would be nice though.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Go your own way and let her figure her end out.


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

She is spinning plates between a demanding career and raising young children and often when people are faced with such situations they park their marriages to get on with the day to day in the belief that when it all calms down they can just pick that back up and carry on with it. All her behaviour and responses to you stem from that probably unconscious decision that you are the least risky thing in her life so can afford to be deprioritised right now.

Doesn't work like that though. Many marriages end because of drifting into that mode of operation and allowing resentment and distance to build up.

The problem is that the one thing that you need to navigate around these periods of life as a couple - good communication - is often in short supply just when you need it most.

So, my view is that improving your communication is key here. It sounds like you are probably going to need some outside help to achieve that as you have tried communicating with her but all you get back is the reflection of her mindset that right now your marriage is just not a priority ahead of job and kids.

So, do some research on suitable counsellors in your area and book a session. Invite her along, but go to it even if she doesn't attend with you. If nothing else it will indicate that this is a serious issue to you.


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## Manner1067 (Feb 22, 2021)

Well there are some underlying issues here for sure, that go beyond the marriage.

As a medical doctor, I assume your wife is vaccinated against COVID-19, and I would imagine that you are too. So why does she insist on visiting restaurants that have draconian personal distancing and mask requirements? What is she afraid of exactly? And why can't unvaccinated guests come to your home?

None of that makes any sense, and amounts to neurotic behavior. She is a doctor and she knows better. There is a greater chance of you dying from a plane falling out of the sky and hitting your home than from this virus.

Listen bro: other people's neurosis are NOT your problem unless you make them your problem. If it isn't COVID-19, it is going to be some other nonsense (food obsessions,insisting that solar panels get put on the roof to great expense even though they don't do anything to improve the climate, scrubbing down the house non-stop because some imaginary bacteria is going to kill everyone in the family, bulimia, anorexia, whatever). 

OR this COVID nonsense is simply an excuse for her not to go out with you, or to have guests over, and that is an even bigger problem. Neither scenario should be tolerated by you.

Now the other issue here is that your wife "wanted it all"! High-powered medical career, kids, house, husband, etc.

and you can't "have it all" --life is about priorities and sacrifices. I gave up an academic career or my family because I wasn't making enough money, was living in a crappy part of the country, etc. --went into the private sector and have been very happy. Much better for wife and kids. 

I would discuss the following with your wife:

1. If she can move into a less demanding practice such as family medicine.
2. If she can take time off from work or expand vacation.
3. If she can see a psychologist and work through her anxiety and neuroses


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## aaronj (Oct 20, 2011)

otomerican said:


> With the medical doctor thing, what basically happened was she thought she was going to conduct a lot of studies for academia and only see some patients. In reality though, her work was mainly seeing a bunch of patients. She's holding onto the current job because leaving without publishing would mean departing academic medicine. And she is still holding onto the hope that she'll publish a bunch of studies in the future, which will likely never happen since she's been there for like 6 years and hasn't produced much, unfortunately.
> 
> I think the lack of sleep and mommy-mania has made her disagreeable in marriage. I suppose counseling is worth a shot but the frustrating thing is that we don't have much of a shared understanding of our problems. So she would insist that on our date, I was the one who didn't want to stay at the bar (because she wouldn't eat anything there) If she were to post here she would say I'm overly critical of her for everything. Which is not true, but that's what I'm up against when I appeal to reason about marital problems. Weirdly, she insists that sex isn't important to relationships. So, uh, red flag. A dialogue would be nice but it's like she just reverses anything I say. If the baby let her get more sleep I think things would be better.
> 
> I don't personally think I'm co-dependent or responsible for her happiness. All things being equal I'd rather take the long shot of keeping things alive than just be a father on weekends. The freedom would be nice though.


If your wife has published little in her first six years, the likelihood she will ever be a successful academic physician is pretty low. From your description, she doesn't sound like a "quitter." How would she respond if you pointed out that she is essentially quitting on you?


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## DallasCowboyFan (Nov 20, 2012)

I would suggest marriage counseling. I would demand counseling. She needs to see where she is wrong and make changes and you can't make her see those things. Otherwise, you are stuck in this grind. If she will not go to counseling, there isn't much hope. I am blown away that she can't even see that sex is important to a marriage. A counselor can help inform her and steer you guys in a better direction. If you are both willing to go and fix it.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

otomerican said:


> With the medical doctor thing, what basically happened was she thought she was going to conduct a lot of studies for academia and only see some patients. In reality though, her work was mainly seeing a bunch of patients. She's holding onto the current job because leaving without publishing would mean departing academic medicine. And she is still holding onto the hope that she'll publish a bunch of studies in the future, which will likely never happen since she's been there for like 6 years and hasn't produced much, unfortunately.
> 
> I think the lack of sleep and mommy-mania has made her disagreeable in marriage. I suppose counseling is worth a shot but the frustrating thing is that we don't have much of a shared understanding of our problems. So she would insist that on our date, I was the one who didn't want to stay at the bar (because she wouldn't eat anything there) If she were to post here she would say I'm overly critical of her for everything. Which is not true, but that's what I'm up against when I appeal to reason about marital problems. Weirdly, she insists that sex isn't important to relationships. So, uh, red flag. A dialogue would be nice but it's like she just reverses anything I say. If the baby let her get more sleep I think things would be better.
> 
> I don't personally think I'm co-dependent or responsible for her happiness. All things being equal I'd rather take the long shot of keeping things alive than just be a father on weekends. The freedom would be nice though.


Six years in the current vein of her medical profession and not publishing anything doesn't bode well for future publications. Sounds like she's not keen on seeing patients though, so if she wants to remain in the field, then academia is probably it. Is there anyway that she can get an assistant to help her out so that she can get to writing and publishing?

Sex is very important in marriages; you guys are the only people that you each get intimate with, after all. Sex is important for more than just sex. It allows you each to be vulnerable, to let your guards down, and to have a bonding experience. It's really important, and for her to not think so is mind-blowing to me.

Counseling is definitely worth a shot, and honestly, it's probably your only shot at fixing the communication patterns that you and your wife seem to have. A good therapist can get to the root of the issues between you guys, and give you guys tools to work through them. And kudos to you for wanting to work through things, and taking that first step in doing so.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> Ah, I see ... So you somehow think you are responsible for making and keeping her happy. Classic codependency. And, as a woman, I can tell you that women don't particularly respect men who feel the need to fall all over themselves in order to keep us happy.
> 
> My guess is you'll stay, take her crap for years to come, and STILL feel unhappy about the situation. JMO.


This... as a master of codependency...  I can say that she won't be happy if, all of a sudden, he finds his balls again. She will never be happy. And he won't be either. It's too far gone. I can smell the resentment from here.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

otomerican said:


> I don't personally think I'm co-dependent or responsible for her happiness.


Uh, no ... sorry, but you ARE exhibiting major signs of codependency. You don't have to agree with me. But you ARE.

Denial. It's a powerful force.


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## otomerican (May 27, 2021)

"How would she respond if you pointed out that she is essentially quitting on you?"
Angrily, of course. 



Ursula said:


> Six years in the current vein of her medical profession and not publishing anything doesn't bode well for future publications. Sounds like she's not keen on seeing patients though, so if she wants to remain in the field, then academia is probably it. Is there anyway that she can get an assistant to help her out so that she can get to writing and publishing?
> 
> Sex is very important in marriages; you guys are the only people that you each get intimate with, after all. Sex is important for more than just sex. It allows you each to be vulnerable, to let your guards down, and to have a bonding experience. It's really important, and for her to not think so is mind-blowing to me.
> 
> Counseling is definitely worth a shot, and honestly, it's probably your only shot at fixing the communication patterns that you and your wife seem to have. A good therapist can get to the root of the issues between you guys, and give you guys tools to work through them. And kudos to you for wanting to work through things, and taking that first step in doing so.


Re: Manner and AGoodFlogging as well:
It's definitely true that she would prefer some kind of purely academic setting while not having to see as many patients. But as far as help goes, she's pretty much locked into the workhorse role. I've tried to get her to talk about any number of alternatives for years. The problem, again, of course, is she won't talk about it further than rationalizing why she won't make a change, rationalizing why she can't talk about it, strawmanning and lashing out at me etc. She wants it all and doesn't really want to investigate the alternatives. Lead a horse to water and what not.

Yes, the de-emphasis on sex is ludicrous and it's a problem that I can't admit to anyone, obviously. I've made it fairly clear for a long time that she's destroying her relationship with me by trivializing intimacy and acting like cuddling, in the rare moments when she isn't breastfeeding at night, is a substitute.

Counseling is likely my only real choice now and there's a possibility that she'll show humility and openness when dealing with an outside party. She wouldn't be a doctor if she couldn't be logical about other people's problems at least. Thanks for the responses. Any idea how to pick a good MC?


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## aaronj (Oct 20, 2011)

otomerican said:


> "How would she respond if you pointed out that she is essentially quitting on you?"
> Angrily, of course.


And then what? 

Would she take you seriously? Would she become defensive? Would she refuse to change anything? How likely is she to prioritize you and your marriage over her career? Even if she does, how likely will she do so and be happy? How likely is it that she would just blame or resent you for keeping her from achieving her dreams?

You know her. What do you see as the real likelihood that she will ever be happy being the wife/partner you need?


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## AllyCat702 (May 30, 2021)

Have you made any progress?


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## otomerican (May 27, 2021)

AllyCat702 said:


> Have you made any progress?


Yes... kind of. The weekend started with her making too many grouchy responses to me. So I told her that being rude to me constantly was unacceptable. After a back and forth for awhile, she was doing the passive-agressive "I've already told you what I'm angry about" or "I'm not being mean to you, you're being mean to me" schtick, she admitted that she didn't feel emotionally validated... When I pressed further what that meant she said it was because I wanted to have some people over on the same day she wanted to schedule something for the kids making her re-book plans even though we talked about it. So I waded deeper into the things that have been frustrating her over the past week or two and she ultimately cheered up. The trick was to get her talking. We got along and had sex a couple times over the weekend when the kids were asleep and she's back to being affectionate, kissing me and telling me she loves me again. I'll note that I didn't have to grovel to resolve this as much as keep pressing the issue to find out what she was angry about and listen to her lamentations until she relaxed.

So I guess that's not terrible? Make-up sex isn't ultimately addressing the underlying issue of course and has the side-effect of making me view any marital concerns with rose-colored glasses. I don't believe my wife wants to get rid of me, nor did she when she was overly angry at the start of the weekend. What always happens is she acts overprotective of the kids or makes so many high-maintenance decisions that she adds to her own stress. In return, I question why she's making things so difficult on purpose and won't scale back, after which she takes it out on me. So it's kind of a dangerous cycle that we're in right now. 

One plus side is our younger kid will eventually sleep through the night, which will help us both sleep and communicate better. As for her work life, she'll only pick a more relaxing career path when she admits to herself that she's maxed out She might pick a slower-paced job to spend more time with the kids. At least my Mother-in-law believes this. An ultimatum on my part to get her to quit her job and let me be the breadwinner won't work. She does occasionally consider alternatives to the unhappy career but this isn't something she puts a lot of effort into. She's indecisive about it. Again. We'll see how much success I have the whole marriage issue. Yes, I still have to find a decent MC so we can talk about the underlying problems.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

otomerican said:


> With the medical doctor thing, what basically happened was she thought she was going to conduct a lot of studies for academia and only see some patients. In reality though, her work was mainly seeing a bunch of patients. She's holding onto the current job because leaving without publishing would mean departing academic medicine. And she is still holding onto the hope that she'll publish a bunch of studies in the future, which will likely never happen since she's been there for like 6 years and hasn't produced much, unfortunately.
> 
> I think the lack of sleep and mommy-mania has made her disagreeable in marriage. I suppose counseling is worth a shot but the frustrating thing is that we don't have much of a shared understanding of our problems. So she would insist that on our date, I was the one who didn't want to stay at the bar (because she wouldn't eat anything there) If she were to post here she would say I'm overly critical of her for everything. Which is not true, but that's what I'm up against when I appeal to reason about marital problems. Weirdly, she insists that sex isn't important to relationships. So, uh, red flag. A dialogue would be nice but it's like she just reverses anything I say. If the baby let her get more sleep I think things would be better.
> 
> I don't personally think I'm co-dependent or responsible for her happiness. All things being equal I'd rather take the long shot of keeping things alive than just be a father on weekends. The freedom would be nice though.


You DEF need marriage counseling -- they can help you both converge on to what your problems are and from a 3rd party which may help her and you BOTH understand the issues in a clear, unambiguous way.
To me, she also sounds a bit OCD with the house.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

Look these years where careers and kids come along are so often the hardest and marriages do take a backseat. So many people have been there.

I used to feel this way about my husband, so did all of my friends, like many couples, where one spouse was busting it to make money and pay the endless bills, only to plonk on the couch unable to breath, and not even say much to the one they love. It goes on for years.

Sometimes the loudest one calls it quits, has an affair, seethes with resentment and anger. Divorce, remarry, have another couple of kids and start off in an even worse financial position, rinse and repeat. 

Or 10 years later... the kids are bigger, the bills are smaller... and you get more sleep and the fun begins.

Choose your own adventure.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Your problem is that you are not the leader in your marriage, your wife is. She decides what you eat, where you live, how you manage the lawn, how your kids are raised, etc, etc. She tells you what to do and you do it.

She doesn’t respect you because women can’t respect a man they can control and boss around. Women respect strength and despise weakness and passivity in men. She’s not attracted to you because women aren’t attracted to men they don’t respect.

You need to start leading in your marriage and start operating in your own frame instead of your wife’s.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

DudeInProgress said:


> You need to start leading in your marriage and start operating in your own frame instead of your wife’s.


I think they just need to talk more about the issues, but the OP needs to take the initiative when things are bothering his wife. He has to make clear that she needs to talk to him.


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## otomerican (May 27, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> I think they just need to talk more about the issues, but the OP needs to take the initiative when things are bothering his wife. He has to make clear that she needs to talk to him.


I'm actually aware of the red pill arguments well enough but following the Rolo Tomassi logic, hypergamous female doctors would never marry anyone except a more successful doctor. Some female doctors realize that they won't be able to spend time with the kids so they alter their career path in one way or another. Or they aren't as sentimental and are okay with letting the nanny do a lot of the heavy lifting through motherhood. My wife hasn't waved the white flag on that yet and wants to be a supermom and spend 50-80 hours a week on her career path. So, yes, I'm stuck making sure that we talk through our differences / get counseling in the meantime and I fail to see how I would "lead" my way out of this other than what I'm already doing.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

otomerican said:


> So, yes, I'm stuck making sure that we talk through our differences / get counseling in the meantime and I fail to see how I would "lead" my way out of this other than what I'm already doing.


I think counselling is the way to go.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

otomerican said:


> I'm actually aware of the red pill arguments well enough but following the Rolo Tomassi logic, hypergamous female doctors would never marry anyone except a more successful doctor.


Wrong. You don’t have to be more successful than her in her career field you don’t have to make more money than her (although it helps).

You do have to bring value as a man (not as an errand boy who she can control) and you do still need to lead the relationship and the family - and that does not seem to be the case here, and that is the biggest problem.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

otomerican said:


> I'm actually aware of the red pill arguments well enough but following the Rolo Tomassi logic, hypergamous female doctors would never marry anyone except a more successful doctor.


That is not what Rollo/Red Pill logic says. 

Women will ‘marry’ a less successful man when the heat the biological clock ticking loudly. 

They will marry a guy and have her kids and will even agree to him being the live-in nanny and housekeeper while she brings home the bacon.

What very few women will be able to do however is respect and desire him sexually. 

Desire in women is so closely related to respect and admiration that women can rarely desire a man she doesn’t respect and admire- and it is hard for many women to admire and respect a man with less education, less social status, less income and less ambition than her. 

So she will marry a less successful man for offspring and a marital home life, but she will desire and yearn for a more successful man and often see the less successful husband as “The Help,” and thusly not respect and desire him and may even grow resentful and bitter towards him because he isn’t her first choice.


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