# I complicated my wife's AFFAIR



## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

I am new here, but have spent the last year on another marriage/relationship website. I came across this one last week and was really impressed with some of you guys on here so I have decided to give this a try. Having said that, my story of my marriage is a complicated one and it is tearing me up inside because it's not as black and white as other stories of infidelity. For what you are about to hear, you will probably chew me out and I understand why. So don't hold back, ok?
Here goes nothing...

After 16 years of a very good marriage, our sex life stalled. It had been a slow death if you will. But it went from sex once or maybe twice a week, to once a month. My self esteem wasn't great and my wife had told me it wasn't my fault, it was probably her. She has been taking medication for depression, insomnia, ADHD (it was really just to help her get out of bed and go to work/function), joint pain, stress. She even took birth control to keep her from the uncomfortableness of her periods.
This went on for a few years. I tried doing even MORE around the house to help her energy, happiness, etc. I also thought it might help with our sex life. All I ever hear is how women have no energy for sex so I thought I would do everything. I was doing everything: cooking, cleaning, caring for our kids, yard work. It got to a point one day I complained I felt like the "wife" in the relationship and wouldn't mind some help once in awhile and my wife took offense and was pissed at me.
During this time I started to bring up "swinging" to try to put a spark in our sex life. I would bring this up maybe once every 3 months or so. I was embarrassed talking about my FANTASY that I was suggesting to turn into a REALITY. Her response was always she couldn't bonk some complete stranger. I would never push it or respond. I'd just drop it.
Yes, it was very STUPID and desperate for me to suggest a thing. I encouraged her to dress sexy and not too long after that she decided to get a boob job. I didn't stand in her way. Our sex life improved for a little while, but then would resort back to the same thing. I felt responsible for this however. 
Then one day, she came back from a business trip and was acting weird. She said it was just body aches. A few days later I went on our family computer and saw that she left Skype open and she had a chat on there with some guy she met on her trip. Apparently, they discussed that they needed to get together again and missed each other. Red flags went up like crazy. I asked her if anything went on during her trip I should know about. She said no. The next day I confronted her about the skype message and she said she just flirted with the guy and he kissed her in a club.That was all. In her skype message it said she loves her husband very much. So I figured it was just a fling?
At this point, most men would say "there's the door"; " this will END now", " NC" etc. But I didn't.:scratchhead:
I told her I didn't like her keeping things from me. She needs to be open and honest with me. Then my fantasies of swinging took hold and I asked her about the idea of having a threesome with the OM ( she still loved ME, not him, right?). That I felt better if I was there. She said she would think about it. 
Yes. I was stupid. In hindsight, I wish my self-esteem was stronger.
She was planning another business trip and was planning to meet him. I struggled and confronted her about it just being him and her in a far away place. This is when I saw someone I never knew before. She started crying and shaking saying that she was happy for once and that her symptoms were no longer bothering her. Why can't she have fun? I wanted her to be happy, but this was against what I really wanted. Foolishly, I allowed her to go telling her but no sex with this OM, ok? She went. She ignored my phone calls. And I became a mess. She returned saying why I called so much? That I need to calm down. That she was on her "period" and nothing happened.

I later learned they did. It hurt but I never had the courage to stop it. I was afraid if I did she would no longer be happy and she would blame me for it and she'd leave me. What a fool I was. I was slowly becoming a mess. We would have late night arguments about all of this and I would cry. More and more. For 13 years of marriage I cried only once (birth of our daughter). Now I was doing it more and more. A downward spiral.
Several months later, I caught her in a lie that she was supposed to go to a friends house while I was at my family's house with the kids. It turns out she met the OM at the airport and her car broke down. She returned late that night and confessed that she lied and broke down crying saying she was sorry. That was the end of their relationship. The OM moved on. And her fooling around was done...or so I thought.

During this time, the OM had a co-worker that also "friended" my wife. He was "nerdy" and a loner and definitely not my wife's type. He lived far away. He was married too so I did not feel threatened by him. They would chat online from time to time (business and friends stuff). He would even chat with me a few times. Seemed like a nice guy. However, in a few months time my wife spent more and more time chatting with him.She was always laughing out loud. It looked like the guy was pretty funny. I started feeling more neglected, but my wife assured me they were just friends. She started showing me more affection during this time. So I dismissed it that I was the one going crazy. 
My wife went on another business trip and was meeting the new nerdy OM (the 1st OM was long gone). I told her I felt he liked her and that she should NOT do ANYTHING with this guy. For once, I was putting my boundaries down after my huge FU. She agreed.
She returned from the trip and said she told him from the start " Just friends" and the OM agreed. But they still chatted online a lot after their trip. I would go to bed at 10pm and she would stay up till 2am on a work night. I felt her insomnia was causing this (which probably was, but I later learned she was chatting with this guy too). She kept reassuring me nothing was going on and I stopped with the "empty accusations" and confronting her because she told me it was upsetting her and pushing her away. So I did. I thought it was all in my head and I was an insecure fool.
The OM came to town to pitch his business idea and my wife invited him to stay at our place. I felt uncomfortable about this, but I did not want her to think I was insecure/weak again. So I said ok. I never found evidence anything happened, but there were signs she really liked this guy. She was spending a lot of time with him. When he left, I broke down. My wife suggested I need therapy and anti-depressants. I felt like I was paranoid and totally losing it. So I did. Went to a doctor to get meds.

What was wrong with me? I've been healthy my whole life. And now the tables were turned: my wife was healthy and happy and I was a depressed mess. 

I know this story is so long, so to shorten it a bit: After confronting her several times and being told it's in my head and that she loves me; she finally told me she was in love with him and not me. And that things went physical back in her first trip when we agreed nothing would happen. The classic EA to PA.
We go to MC, but she says her heart is not in it. I'm a mess in MC, crying while she is stoned face. She is still in contact with the OM. I did expose him to his wife. But she was like me (confused & no self esteem) and despite telling him she did not support this, couldn't find the courage to kick him out. 
My wife said it was like an addiction with this OM. And that he met many of her needs. And she felt I am incapable of meeting those needs. I tried so hard to meet those needs. I know now I had a chance in hell pulling that off. I apologized for all the things I did. She never apologized for her actions.

She went to visit the OM during the X-mas holidays. Her family urged me not to divorce her. The counselor thought her leaving was a bad idea, but I shouldn't do anything rash. I was getting ****ty advice that only enabled her.

After several months, he finally broke it off with her. She was devastated. She told me to move out if I wanted the marriage to have a chance. I did. But a month later I moved back in because I learned her and the OM were going to give it another try. She was pissed at me and thought I was selfish. It never worked out with her and the OM. She left me though. Quit her good job down here. All of her symptoms came crashing back. She moved away to find herself and to decide if working on the marriage was worth it or leave it. I wanted her back to work on the marriage and family. She said she decided to stay away for good. She loved being in a new state and the outdoors. She said she was happier up there. 
I discovered soon afterwards she has joined a dating site up there and has met a new man. So I called her and said I finally was done and I want a divorce. Her response? "Ok, let's discuss how to do this without involving any lawyers, ok". Wow. She wasn't upset or anything? Why did she have to wait for me to pull the plug? I ended up hiring a lawyer and was able to keep our house and my kids (it's joint though). No winners in this.

So I feel responsible for the end of our marriage because I opened that idea of fooling around and did not put my foot down with the first OM. When I finally realized she wouldn't be honest with me (she told me later because I would flip out if she told me), I realized my fantasy should have been just that..a fantasy, and it has turned my life into a living hell. My friends know about all this. They tell me despite what I did, she had a choice. Especially when I finally put my boundaries in place and she crossed them with the 2nd OM. But I still struggle with this. I feel so responsible. I feel terrible. I wish this was black and white like so many of you. It would be easier to live with my choices. I know it takes two to work on a marriage as well as there to be problems. But it's mostly my fault, right?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

How does this sort of thing happen?
2 PA's , lies , humiliation , depression , emasculation , three some fantasy gone viral , cuckold.

Damn.:slap:

Something is very wrong here......


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You made two mistakes as I see it.

The first was in being nicer and doing more around the house to make up for her excuses. See her problems weren't real. They all went away when she wanted them to, so she could cheat. So your choice to be super nice only enabled her to continue to hide behind the fake reasons.

Your second mistake in how your handled her first cheating. You forgave her, believed her lies, and let her just continue without any consequences. So she did.

Other than those two mistakes - nothing here is you fault in any way.

Now on her side:

1. She wasn't honest with you about her problems. They were fake and lies and meant to put you off. They disappeared when she wanted them gone, and they reappeared when she didn't care. 

2. You wife chose to not work on the marriage and she chose not to a good partner. She withdrew into her own world selfishly and did not make you or building the marriage a priority.

3. She lied. She chose to have sex with the OM and she chose to lie to you about it. She chose to let you live in lies while she and OM continued to have their affair. She then continued these lies right on into OM2.

You're wife frankly shows a lot of signs of the type of personality that can and will lie without guilt, and who lacks even basic empathy for others around them. 

In short, she really isn't marriage material, she never was. You didn't make her into a cheater, she is very much wired that way. You didn't drive her away, she chose to cheat and leave.

There was nothing you could have done because she didn't want to participate in the marriage. She wanted to cheat. All the therapy in the world can't change a persons mind when they have made it up to cheat.

So stop beating yourself up, and realize that divorce isn't an end of you - it's the end of lies and the opportunity for you to find a much better and honest person to be with.

Do get yourself a very good lawyer despite her pleas to avoid lawyers. Your wife is a skilled liar who knows how to manipulate you. You need a lawyer to protect you from her, to make sure she doesn't take you to the cleaners.

What is going on with your daughter during all this? Do you have custody or has your wife taken her to the other state she's now living in?

BTW - since she's living in another state you need to talk to a lawyer and find out which state offers you the best divorce terms ASAP. If it's your current state then the clock is ticking on you filing there so you need to act quickly. If it's in the state she's living in now, then you have other options. Either way you need to talk to a lawyer NOW.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> You made two mistakes as I see it.
> 
> The first was in being nicer and doing more around the house to make up for her excuses. See her problems weren't real. They all went away when she wanted them to, so she could cheat. So your choice to be super nice only enabled her to continue to hide behind the fake reasons.
> 
> ...


Youre wife cheating is not your fault. I agree with Shaggy. You made mistakes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

The children are under my custody(temp). It looks like it'll probably go joint(kids see her holidays/summer) with her providing child support. I have a lawyer as of 2 weeks ago. My wife just doesn't know it yet. 
My daughter took mommy leaving very hard. Mommy said she could only find work in her new state(Michigan) and couldn't find any here. Lied to me. And now is lying to our daughter.
You're right Shaggy. She is a liar. 
I made mistakes...some really big ones I feel. But thanks for taking so much time and effort to give some sort of perspective on what happened. That's why I came here. 
She still has not apologized and tells her family (who are also confused and pissed at her) that she has done nothing wrong. She also tells them I was abusive to her. I've never laid a finger on her! My therapist said I enabled too much (her father is worse than me in that dept) and that she was very much in control of our marriage.
And as far as empathy goes, I agree. She USED to be very empathetic. The kindest caring person I ever knew. But I noticed subtle changes over the years and then very obvious to my simple-minded male brain when the affair was full blown.
Part of me "dreams" of having her snap out of it back to who she was. But I know the reality and that hurts. And it hurt believing I was the reason this all happened. I still don't know at this point. But your kind words help. Thank you.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

There was another thread i read here about a man going to his sons graduation and the ex asking him to go over for champagne and he refused multiple times, "thanks for the invite", and she had got all teary eyed. Later on she will see a stronger you, moved on, evolved into better for what you have left of your life you had and not to prove anything to her or anyone else, but for you and for your children necause the truth always comes out and children are not stupid, they will grow older and learn to know what you worked for to be where you are now and where you will be in the future, for their sake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

One thing you need to remember about the person she is. If during the D process you try to be nice, show kindness, or compromise hoping she will do the same, you will find yourself disappointed and frustrated. 

People such as her see such acts as weakness and that you deserve her exploiting you when you show them. She's deeply invested in only herself at this point, the fact she up and left for another state an abandoned her children.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

I'll try to be brief, yet brutal.

Basically, your wife was not sexually attracted to you. At best, most women tend to lose attraction for the husband around 4-7 years into the marriage. All the dope your wife was taking wasn't helping either. The more housework you did, the less attractive you made yourself. She was repulsed by you, at that point.

Every step you made lowered your standing on the male sexual hierarchy.

As for your so-called fantasy, was it swinging or watching your wife get nailed?

What is your goal, here? Want to do better with women in the future or to get your wife back?

ETA: it's easy to see why your wife had to move to Michigan to find a job. After all, it's the jobs mecca of the USA. That Henry Ford is really expanding up in Dearborn.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

I don't believe there are very many women who would move away and basically abandon their children as your wife did. To me, she seems like a very psychologically damaged person.

Your wife was very selfish. It is not normal to allow your spouse to do all of the work in a marriage as you describe your wife allowed you to do all the cooking, cleaning, yard work, caring for kids, etc.

You have to work on your self esteem. You have to place your needs on an equal footing as others' needs and to stand up for yourself when you are not treated fairly.


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

I will try to be strong. My huge weakness was doing anything to make her happy and later it turned out that I sacrificed my well-being for her happiness thinking I could get over it. I was wrong.
And I believe not only did she not find me sexually attractive, she lost respect for me more and more. I feel I could have prevented that from happening if I was stronger. But it's been a year since Dday. I have tried everything from trying to meet her needs to doing a 180 over the last 3 months. I'm done. But trying to find peace with myself. The terrible choices I made. 
And is it possible if I was stronger, we'd be together without the cheating and drama??

As for the swinging, it was both. My fantasy was to watch AND be involved. But that fantasy no longer turns me on, obviously. I am 100% certain that I would never suggest such a thing in future relationships. I am learning so much from this despite all the mistakes I made. Communicate better, don't avoid conflict or feelings, 50-50 parenting and responsibilities, etc.
As for leaving the kids and I; I believe she is very selfish too. Only thinking about herself and her own happiness. Right now she is being very nice with little smilies on her texts when she asks to chat with the kids. Sound a little manipulative?
I hope time will help because I want to be the best father in my kids' eyes and my own as well.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

JB100, is this you again? I like the other storyline better.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Your wife was your lover and friend at one time, but now she is your enemy. She has treated you as her enemy. She cheated on you. She lied to you. She manipulated you and continues to try to do so.

Treat people based on their true relationship to you. If your wife is your enemy, treat her as such. Keep all of your contact with your wife to the kids and divorce proceedings. It's OK if you are polite, but do not consider her your friend. Always realize, no matter how nice her words are, the message always is about her getting more and you getting less.

You are getting divorced. Whether or not you would like to think of it this way, it is you against her in the divorce. That is how it works.

Your wife writes sweet emails, puts smileys on them. That is a trick. Cheaters lie. Your wife has been and is a liar. Do not believe your wife's words, believe her actions.

Your biggest mistake with your wife was not doing what you felt was right, for example, telling her how you really felt or telling her not to see the other men, because you were afraid of what would happen if you expressed your true feelings, afraid that she would leave you. From now on, express your true feelings. If you're not OK with something your wife is doing, tell her, "I am not OK with that." Do not ever along go along with her for fear that she will do or not do something based on your words or actions. Your wife is going to do what she wants to do regardless of what you say or do, so you might as well do and say what you want.

If your wife sends you a sweet smiley-faced email asking for more than she deserves, understand it for what it is. All of her communications are to further her own means. She feels she can accomplish her selfish goals best by being nice to you. If she felt she could get what she wanted by being nasty, she would turn nasty in a minute.


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

costa200 said:


> JB100, is this you again? I like the other storyline better.


I'm not sure who that is, but I'm not that guy. I really wish I had a different story to tell. It would have been easier to say, she cheated on me and I was the PERFECT husband. But I need to be honest with all of you and especially myself. So I am putting myself out there knowing I will possibly get some "brutal" replies (Machavelli). But I need to hear things like that as much as it helps to hear things from Shaggy, CJS, and WK. Not only am I done with my sexual fantasy, I want to make sure I'm not living in a fantasy of who is at fault for the breakdown of the marriage and the affairs. I want to believe the breakdown of the marriage was both of us and the affairs were on her. After I had fallen and was at my worst, I tried so hard to fix the marriage. But she had already thrown in the towel ( and that hurts) and never gave it a try. I guess we all have our perspectives about my marriage and the infidelity and I just don't want my perspective to be as far from reality as hers has been.


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> Treat people based on their true relationship to you. If your wife is your enemy, treat her as such. Keep all of your contact with your wife to the kids and divorce proceedings. It's OK if you are polite, but do not consider her your friend. *Always realize, no matter how nice her words are, the message always is about her getting more and you getting less.*


My eyes opened wide when I read that part. You nailed it and it's something I've been feeling as well. Getting some type of confirmation from others is really helpful with us. It's hard to believe someone you knew for over a decade suddenly becomes a very different person. You'd think that once we're past adolescence and young adulthood, we are pretty much set in stone for who we are. Boy, am I wrong. Thanks.


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## mule kick (Apr 10, 2012)

She was going to find another man whether you suggested it or not. She didn't seek out another man with your help, she snuck out behind your back and found someone. It wasn't a person that you brought into the relationship, and I guarantee you if you look around at life and our modern world you were not the only source of the suggestion to have an affair. In that way I think you give yourself too much credit for her actions. She wasn't intending to fulfill your fantasy, she was just having an affair and if it turned out you were okay with that then she can have her cake and eat it too. 
Truth is she wasn't happy with you and whether you were stronger or weaker or you didn't mind her having affairs she probably wasn't going to be happy with you. It's not such a bad deal as the saying goes if you love somebody set them free. 
We don't own our partners no matter what promises we make at the altar. The time we spend together is a gift, but when it's over you have to realize it's not that the future together was taken away because that was never a valid guarantee in the first place. A 13 year marriage is a long time. There is no way you couldn't mark that down as a successful relationship. You did what was right, it's unfair for yourself or anyone else to claim you could've done it better. If it was just a matter of a slightly different attitude then surely your marriage should have been good enough that she would have tried to work on that with you. No there was nothing you could have done to fix it, your wife is the one that had to do the fixing and she chose not to.


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

I was married to the same type of wife, I made the same mistakes you did. I was a Nice Guy. We divorced during the First Gulf War. Christmas, she sent the paperwork and I signed it. When we got back, I started running ten miles a day and working out. I bought a new car, and learned to CW dance. I met alot of interesting ladies that liked what I had to offer and it helped me understand that it was not me that was broken, it was her.This is YOUR life, you must make the most of each moment. Your time is ticking away, do not waste it on broken people. Good luck David


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

costa200 said:


> JB100, is this you again? I like the other storyline better.



I usually don't like reading your posts, Costa, but this one made me laugh out loud.... And, I needed that!!! LOL


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm glad to hear you don't want her back. Now that you've decided on the single life for a while, I recommend that you read up on "game" and how to build attraction. Start here.

As for the post-mortem on your marriage, the Alpha male may have other women in his harem, or in modern terms "soft harem", but he never allows other men into the harem. Most women's first reaction to the "you can do other guys" line is revulsion at the husband. This is true, even if they eventually go through with it. Plus the revulsion doesn't fully go away. Swinging is a little different, since it's pretty much run by the women, but it's not "alpha" either. It's just Gamma in a different way.

I've talked to women who actually did gang bangs for their H's amusement. Even if they got into it, they still claimed to resent the husband for it. Bear in mind, that may just have been another form of feminine minimization and CYA.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

"Hey wife, why don't you cheat on me?"

"Well, OK, hubs, if that's what you want!"

"OMG! My wife just cheated on me?!"

Oh. Hang on....

RAHHHHHHHHH Phew! That feels better!


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> "Hey wife, why don't you cheat on me?"
> 
> "Well, OK, hubs, if that's what you want!"
> 
> ...


Did you read my entire post or just selectively?
Never said go cheat behind my back. Never said lie to me. Over and over. And once I found out, I first tried telling her what I wanted and didn't want. Still lied to me.
It was still stupid for me to suggest a thing and most people would never suggest a thing.Yeah, it turns out it wasn't suited for my relationship and it was a bad idea. I own that. I'm angry with myself for that. BUT if that's the way a cheater will twist what was suggested months ago, to justify their thinking and choices then you nailed it Matt. I am reading waywards rewrite history. Is that true? Have you educated yourself on swinging? Believe it or not, there is a DIFFERENCE between the two. Cheating involves lying and dishonesty and sex(PA). When it comes to swinging, the only similarity is sex (which everyone agrees and is usually present). Otherwise, there's no lying or dishonesty. That's the big difference, pal.
If you knew that you wouldn't have tried to make a joke of my situation which I find immature....at best. I'm not looking for sympathy or arse-quotes making fun of people who are hurting. Just some advice and analysis of what happened.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

OP, have you ever known anybody IRL who got into swinging?


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Try to get the most amount of child custody since she left for another state, can be considered as abandonment. Also if her old job was a better pay make sure to get the child support according to that, since she quit that job willingly herself and wasn't fired.


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

keko said:


> Try to get the most amount of child custody since she left for another state, can be considered as abandonment. Also if her old job was a better pay make sure to get the child support according to that, since she quit that job willingly herself and wasn't fired.


I never knew that. I will bring that up with my lawyer when we meet Thursday. Thanks.:smthumbup:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LostinUS said:


> Did you read my entire post or just selectively?
> Never said go cheat behind my back. Never said lie to me. Over and over. And once I found out, I first tried telling her what I wanted and didn't want. Still lied to me.
> It was still stupid for me to suggest a thing and most people would never suggest a thing.Yeah, it turns out it wasn't suited for my relationship and it was a bad idea. I own that. I'm angry with myself for that. BUT if that's the way a cheater will twist what was suggested months ago, to justify their thinking and choices then you nailed it Matt. I am reading waywards rewrite history. Is that true? Have you educated yourself on swinging? Believe it or not, there is a DIFFERENCE between the two. Cheating involves lying and dishonesty and sex(PA). When it comes to swinging, the only similarity is sex (which everyone agrees and is usually present). Otherwise, there's no lying or dishonesty. That's the big difference, pal.
> If you knew that you wouldn't have tried to make a joke of my situation which I find immature....at best. I'm not looking for sympathy or arse-quotes making fun of people who are hurting. Just some advice and analysis of what happened.


In my opinion the only difference between swinging and cheating is the spelling.

I am not making a joke of your situation. My shout was out of pure frustration that people add the toxicity of swinging into their marriage and then say: "Oh, gosh! It's all gone wrong."

Look, I am probably older than you. I have seen a lot of stuff. 

The only real life example of swinging I have seen have all ended very badly, indeed.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> OP, have you ever known anybody IRL who got into swinging?


Mac, I have. Three couples, over the years. One the idiot husband took his pregnant wife to a party, only then to remember to tell her it was a swinging party. She left him there and saw a solicitor within the week.

The second the husband wanted to swing, the wife didn't. So he beat her until she agreed. 

The third? The wife finally plucked up the courage to leave her husband.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Mac, I have. Three couples, over the years. One the idiot husband took his pregnant wife to a party, only then to remember to tell her it was a swinging party. She left him there and saw a solicitor within the week.
> 
> The second the husband wanted to swing, the wife didn't. So he beat her until she agreed.
> 
> The third? The wife finally plucked up the courage to leave her husband.


I don't think men understand how unattractive/offputting it is when they propose this stuff.


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

I can sit here and debate the whole issue of swinging. But that can be like discussing politics. Hell with that.
What I'm trying to learn is if my comments to her in the past about us trying swinging is responsible for what she did with the first OM later on.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LostinUS said:


> I can sit here and debate the whole issue of swinging. But that can be like discussing politics. Hell with that.
> What I'm trying to learn is if my comments to her in the past about us trying swinging is responsible for what she did with the first OM later on.


I would think it is highly likely, yes.

Basically, you told your wife to have sex with other men.

So she does.

Why would you be surprised by this turn of events?

I think counselling might be an option to discuss and examine how you both got where you are and where you both want to be.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Complexity said:


> I don't think men understand how unattractive/offputting it is when they propose this stuff.


Exactly. Beta-ized instantly at their own hand.


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

So you think telling her that having sex with others with me present and being a part of it is the same as her being somewhere else (thousands of miles away) with me not there? 
If it's the same thing, WHY did she have to cover it up and lie about it?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

LostinUS said:


> I can sit here and debate the whole issue of swinging. But that can be like discussing politics. Hell with that.
> What I'm trying to learn is if my comments to her in the past about us trying swinging is responsible for what she did with the first OM later on.


Only to the extent that you caused her to devalue you even further than she had already. Any guy willing to wife-share is automatically moving himself to the low-value male position. This is true even if he was high-value before. This is even true if it's the woman who proposes the arrangement. You understand the concept of high-value vs low-value male, right?

In your case, she would have cheated eventually, you just helped her feel better about it.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

LostinUS said:


> So you think telling her that having sex with others with me present and being a part of it is the same as her being somewhere else (thousands of miles away) with me not there?
> If it's the same thing, WHY did she have to cover it up and lie about it?


Not the same thing, but it increased her contempt for you manifold. That made it easier for her to cheat on you. She's still an adulteress any way you slice it, though.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LostinUS said:


> So you think telling her that having sex with others with me present and being a part of it is the same as her being somewhere else (thousands of miles away) with me not there?
> If it's the same thing, WHY did she have to cover it up and lie about it?


It's possible you put the idea of having sex with other men in her mind.

It's a short step from swinging to cuckolding...


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

I don't know why this guy is hung on the whole lying/dishonesty crap. You should be more concerned with the fact you were willing to see your wife get screwed by random degenerates, that's the pertinent issue here.


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

What about me telling her that I do not want this going on anymore. That her "new friend" is just that. And she still does it? Are you trying to say that by telling her no means yes? LOL

Like I posted already. I tried the counseling already. I told all of this to our counselor. But my wife doesn't want to work on the marriage anymore. Her reasons that the marriage was bad were things other than my suggestion of swinging:
1. She blames me for not following through on projects. 
2. That I am not good at conversations; deep conversations.
3. That she only wants to be caressed and not have just sex.

And so I started trying to do better at all these things. And I did. But it never mattered in the end to her. She never once brought up my suggestion in the past about swinging is to blame or even play a part in the breakdown. But I think about it because it's the only mistake I feel I made in our marriage. In reality, I probably made lots of little stupid mistakes that built up over time. We never, ever argued. She never discussed these things until AFTER the affair was known.
I am just trying to find out how much I should blame myself for all of this.


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Only to the extent that you caused her to devalue you even further than she had already. Any guy willing to wife-share is automatically moving himself to the low-value male position. This is true even if he was high-value before. This is even true if it's the woman who proposes the arrangement. You understand the concept of high-value vs low-value male, right?
> 
> In your case, she would have cheated eventually, you just helped her feel better about it.


I understand. And it's this why I am so disappointed in myself. It was a hard lesson I learned. And it's one that I will never ever suggest again.


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

Complexity said:


> I don't know why this guy is hung on the whole lying/dishonesty crap. You should be more concerned with the fact you were willing to see your wife get screwed by random degenerates, that's the pertinent issue here.


I never had a sit down with a therapist to focus on just this issue because there were other issues that were pertinent at the time, like saving my marriage and trying to end my wife's relationship and love affair with another. Her and I made mistakes and I was ready to do the hard work at trying to at least give our marriage one last shot. She didn't. She was in over her head with the OM and even told me it was wrong, but that he was like a drug. An addiction.

Discussing my fantasy now is mute because despite whatever underlying issue I had that led me to having this fantasy is now completely gone. It's like thinking of your friend's grandmother's vagina (sorry, just a shout out to 21 Jump street movie), it's a total turn off and makes me nauseous. I never ever want to go down that road again.


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

And not meaning to sound like a jerk, but I find it surprising that a couple of Brits here find offense to swinging. I thought Europe was more open with sex and this sort of thing.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

costa200 said:


> JB100, is this you again? I like the other storyline better.


:rofl:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LostinUS said:


> And not meaning to sound like a jerk, but I find it surprising that a couple of Brits here find offense to swinging. I thought Europe was more open with sex and this sort of thing.


I base my view on swinging from the split lips and various other bruises that a quiet, timid and lovely neighbour got from her husband when she tried to tell him she did not want to swing. (She told everyone her injuries were as a result of her being clumsy.)

Eventually she plucked up the courage to leave him and then the truth came out.

From the work colleague who was told when she was pregnant with her first child: "I don't care if you are heavily pregnant. Your husband is f**king my wife, so you have to f**k me, in return" (She declined his offer) and the friend who, when her husband began getting violently jealous when she had sex with another man in a so-called swinging relationship, even though he felt free to have sex with other women.


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## mule kick (Apr 10, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> I base my view on swinging from the split lips and various other bruises that a quiet, timid and lovely neighbour got from her husband when she tried to tell him she did not want to swing. (She told everyone her injuries were as a result of her being clumsy.)
> 
> Eventually she plucked up the courage to leave him and then the truth came out.
> 
> From the work colleague who was told when she was pregnant with her first child: "I don't care if you are heavily pregnant. Your husband is f**king my wife, so you have to f**k me, in return" (She declined his offer) and the friend who, when her husband began getting violently jealous when she had sex with another man in a so-called swinging relationship, even though he felt free to have sex with other women.


Swinging, along with most alternative sex people engage in, isn't the kind of thing you discuss with people you don't engage in it with. It shouldn't be a surprise that when you hear about it something is going wrong. 
I don't think swinging is healthy and it's a bad idea to try to save a marriage with it. I am not inclined to demonize it though. No 2 relationships are the same and there are many ways monogamous relationships can be toxic in and out of the bedroom.


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## jay80_98 (Jul 14, 2012)

LostinUS said:


> And not meaning to sound like a jerk, but I find it surprising that a couple of Brits here find offense to swinging. I thought Europe was more open with sex and this sort of thing.


Too funny


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

Hey Matt. Sorry to hear what happened to your neighbor and co-worker. I understand now why you have strong feelings about this. Husbands like that should be thrown in jail for abuse. I'd like to think I'm not like them. I never forced her. Only told her my fantasies that involved the two of us experimenting together. 
The crazy thing was that I was never attracted to other women. I just thought swinging might spice up our sex life(mainly hers since she wasn't feeling or trying sex with me). Never got violent with her. Never put a hand on her.
Still, it was stupid of me to even hint at the idea. I still think that at best, she took advantage of it and did it her own way. I tried to put a stop to it and she wouldn't. You won't find me suggesting swinging to anyone. All they have to hear is my story.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Given the way your sex life dwindled, I would suggest that you first have paternity tests run for the children. If she decides to move to a different state, it's likely the "system" will permit it regardless of how it will affect your relationship with the kids.
It's time for you to start looking out for yourself and the less baggage you have the better.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Folks - he and she never even tried swinging NOT ONCE so I think that topic has been harped on enough.

This poor guy's wife followed the cheaters script: She hooked up, she lied,he confronted, she continued to lie, he confronted, she continued to lie.

this dude did not ask to be cheated on. he confronted her and tried to get her to stop cheating.

If anything his crime is believing for a time her lies.

But his wife, she is just a standard run of the mill cheating wife. Nothing special, nothing new. Just a liar and a cheat. So stop beating up the BS and start advising him on divorcing and upgrading.

To the OP - one very bit of benefit you might not know about is that every year older you are, the better the odds are for men to women. While you may have found in your early twenties that you had to pursue a lot and compromise a lot, the odd have shifted in your favor. If you aren't a troll you will find yourself being chased most likely once word gets out.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

LostinUS said:


> I understand. And it's this why I am so disappointed in myself. It was a hard lesson I learned. And it's one that I will never ever suggest again.


I understand why your thoughts turned to this swinging stuff: basically, you weren't getting any action from your wife (you were already devalued) and you wanted to try to rev up her engine so you could get sex between you going again. Lots of other guys have contemplated this with varying degrees of disaster.

Read up on "game." Even though you're headed for divorce court with this one, you should still get a copy of "Married Man Sex Life" and learn it inside out.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Complexity said:


> I don't think men understand how unattractive/offputting it is when they propose this stuff.



:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Married men into swinging, don't understand how easily they emasculate themselves when they give their wives permission , whether explicit or implicit to F.... another man.
Nothing says to a woman that you are not man enough to satisfy her sexual desires, like swinging.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)




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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Nothing says to a woman that you are not man enough to satisfy her sexual desires, like swinging.


:iagree:


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

As others have pointed out, your wife just wasn't attracted to you. Maybe you had a fantastic sex life earlier in your marriage. Maybe you didn't. "Once a week" sounds a bit on the skimp-side, in my opinion. Regardless, its obvious that she wasn't attracted to you at all the few years leading up to her affairs.

Again, as others have opined, your wife doesn't sound like she's worth staying married to - she doesn't seem the least bit remorseful about what she's done. The fact that she's enthusiastic about the divorce tells you all that you need to know. She's a serial cheater with no respect or love for you. So, you'll be happier rid of her.

Now, forget for a moment that your wife is a trollop. It seems to me that your contribution to the state of the marriage did "push" her to have her affairs. I want to be clear here: *her choosing to have an affair is not your fault* (rather, it was her _choice_). Suggesting swinging to spice-up your sex life was a part of the issue, yes. But only _part_ of the bigger problem - which is _your_ attitude and respect for _yourself_ and the marriage. Or rather, lack of respect. It's your yes-man nice-guy approach to your wife and the marriage that nailed the coffin shut.

I can only judge based on what you've written, but I see you as a "nice guy," in every (bad) sense of the term. You were agreeable with your wife, doing everything in your power to keep her placated so that she _might_ have sex with you once a month. A pity f*ck, if you will. Scraps from her sexual table that you were eager and desperate to lap-up.

You encouraged her to try swinging with you in hopes that she will be more sexually active and available. You admit you were enthusiastic about seeing other men dominate _your_ wife. Hell, you even encouraged her to have a threesome with you and _her affair partner_. You not only gave her the okay to _have_ the affair, you told her you were willing to _bless_ the damned thing by being present while they went at it.

When she decided to have affairs on her own, you simply swept it under the rug and forgave her, in hopes that she would snap out of her lust. When you did try to put your foot down, some crocodile tears were enough to shut you up and keep you off her back. It was _you_ that was crying to her for another chance during counseling. Do you realize how _absurd_ that it? To beg that a serial cheater take you back?

The reason nice guys finish last is because everyone and their grandmother takes advantage of them, and nice guys _let them_. Nice guys are "givers," and are always eager to please. Always eager to help others, always eager to placate, to compromise and mediate. Always eager to "fix." Nice guys hate conflict, and never enforce their boundaries when challenged. Nice guys never stand up for themselves, and they never make their needs and wants known. In short, nice guys are selfless, but for all the wrong reasons.

I suspect that your wife is not attracted to you because you don't act like a healthy male. You're a passive "nice guy."

During your sexual dry-spell with her, instead of sitting her down and making your concerns and desires known, you begged and did chores so that she might reward you with sex. Since you were only getting it once a month, that clearly wasn't working very well. What you *should* have done was sit her down and explain to her that you did _not_ marry into a sexless marriage, and that her sexual aversion was seriously affecting you. That you were willing to help her work around her problems, but you were _not_ going to tolerate her celibacy.

I won't say much about the swinging, since others have already beat you over the head with what I would have said.

When you uncovered her first affair, you should have been ready and _willing_ have her served divorce paperwork. You should have told her that you will not tolerate her infidelity, and that you would be divorcing her. That she had until the divorce was finalized to prove she was worth staying married to.

But you didn't. Time and time again, you allowed her to trample your boundaries into the dust. Each time you let her, it emboldened her a little bit more, and lessened her respect for you enough to take her infidelity a bit further. Rather than _taking_ what was rightfully yours, and _fighting_ for your marriage and self-respect, you simply let your wife push you into a corner, while she drove your marriage off a bridge.

So here is where you find yourself now. What are you going to do about it? It's obvious you're here to learn something. You're sharing your story so that others may offer insight, no? I'd say start with the 180. And get the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. It's required reading for you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

There seems to be a trend on swinging at the moment. Two threads in different sections. Has there been an increased interest in swinging in general?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> There seems to be a trend on swinging at the moment. Two threads in different sections. Has there been an increased interest in swinging in general?


It seems to be back on the upward trend lately. I worked at a large federal agency where it was rampant in the 70's and knew quite a few practitioners. The AIDS scare shut it down in the early 80s, but it's been coming back strong since the internet got rolling in the early 90s. The modern version seems a lot more about bisexual women than the old version from the 70's. The thing that hasn't changed from what people tell me (I physique train people, so you can figure out why I hear this stuff) is that once the women get over their resistance, the brain sex chemistry sends them off the deep end invariably.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

costa200 said:


> JB100, is this you again? I like the other storyline better.


More importantly, have you changed the locks yet?

This thread sounds like a different take on JB100's humiliation fantasies.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Here's a free, downloadable version of *No More Mr Nice Guy*. You'll also do well in checking out the following:

*Shrink4Men - for men who are recovering from relationships with abusive women and the non-abusive family and friends who love them*.
*Married Man's Sex Life*
*The Man Up and Nice Guy Reference*

All these will help you regain your self-respect and dignity as a man.


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

Jibril-
I won't deny that I was too damn nice, always trying to make others happy even if it meant at my expense. All of my work wasn't just to receive sex. I was also seeking affection and admiration. Looking back, I rarely received it over the last several years, especially the affection from her. I've always been the "nice guy" my whole life and I'm in my 40s now. Is it reasonable to think I can change for the better? I do agree being too nice has contributed to where I am now. I want better balance in my life: kind & caring; secure & confident.
She has lost respect for me. And I'm sure the 2nd OM she fell for said things to help her lose even more towards me.
I felt responsible for the 1st OM situation. The 2nd OM I feel a little less responsible and I kick myself everyday for not doing what my gut wanted to do: kick her out; 180; contact a lawyer. But our MC and her dad(who I am close with and is very smart) who I confided in told me it would END our marriage if I did that. That if I wanted to save it, I needed to try and meet her needs; to deposit love units. And once the affair dies like most do, she'll see how loving I was/am through all this and get back to working on our marriage. So I did what they said and it was a big freaking mistake.

I will read up on No Mr. Nice guy. Thanks
And thank you Morituri for the links. 

One more thing: I learned last night from my sis that her husband (my bro-in-law) told her that several years ago my wife and him went on a "beer run" during one of my parties and she was hitting on him so much he felt uncomfortable. But he said nothing until I told everyone about her infidelity years later. I'm not saying this to take away my responsibility/mistake of the swinging suggestion. I'm just stating that her feelings towards me and other men was a longer time in the making than I once thought.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Hey Lost,

Do yourself a favor and stop focusing on what you did to make your wife cheat.

Simply put, she made the decision to cheat on you.

She cheated multiple times with multiple men.

She continues to lie to you and you kid.

So stop focusing in her. She is a bad egg and would have cheated anyway.

You wanna know why, because she chose to not love you anymore, emotionally and physically.

She chose to disrespect you and your marriage.

And she chose to leave you, the marriage and your child.

When a mother leaves a child it shows the ultimate selfishness not only of a parent but a mother. That maternal instinct is ingrained in most woman. Your wife has killed that relationship of her own free will jusk like she has killed the marriage.

So you cannot take all that blame my man. She has turned selfish through and through.

So focus on the D. Use your attorney to your advantage especially regarding the abandonment.

And focus on you and your child. She will need you more than ever. 

*And I hoped you noticed how all your STBXW's pains all disappeared while she was boinking the OM or in her Affairs.*

That just shows how mentally broken she really was for you and your family.

HM64


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

Just read a summary of "Married Man's Sex Life" and reviews on Amazon. And it brought back little comments from my wife such as 
1. Wanting me to make decisions such as where to go eat, etc. I always asked her because I didn't want to appear dominating or controlling.
In short, I just purchased the book in hopes it makes me a better self-respecting husband and man.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

MMSL is a great book. However in your case I don't think it would have charged anything except maybe your filing for D earlier because you wouldn't have accepted them compromises your wife talked you into.

Your wife chose to serially cheat. She chose to lie to you. When you offered swinging she could have cone lean about her desire to cheat. Each step of the road she chose to lie and secretly pursue her affairs. 

This isn't anything you did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Hey Lost,
> 
> Do yourself a favor and stop focusing on what you did to make your wife cheat.
> 
> ...


You're right. And I did notice how all her pains dissapeared when she was deep in her affairs and she even admitted this in a moment of temporary clarity about how addicted she was to it. AND she also felt that all her pain in her life was my fault and our terrible marriage had been going on for a long time which was sudden news to me because we never had a serious/sit down discussion about it.
I need to stop blaming myself. I think I try to take on so much. Trying to take the responsibilities of those around me and shouldering all the faults and blame. My focus is in the wrong place.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

LostinUS said:


> ...she also felt that all her pain in her life was my fault and our terrible marriage had been going on for a long time which was sudden news to me because we never had a serious/sit down discussion about it.


That's her rationalization hamster running at warp speed. Those hamsters do super feats during affairs.

Shaggy, is right about MMSL. That info is to use for the new you. Forget your STBX.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

So Lost you have seen the general consensus to focus on your healing, working through your D and loving your child.

Your W is so lost but not because of your actions. I truly believe from what you described that your W has some serious issues within herself.

And only she can fix them, not you. Nor anything that you feel you could do for her.

So again, focus on your future and that of your child.

And do as much as you can through your attorney. Since your WW has moved out of state give her the "space" that she has forced upon you and your child. No contact as much as possible. Screw her smiley faces in ant emails.

I think the less contact You have with her the quicker you both (you and your child) will heal. That will assure both of you a better, brighter future.

Your wife needs to lose everything in her life before she realizes that she has nothing. Only until she loses it all will she come to realize just what she not only lost but what she helped destroy.

Your family.

So I wish you luck and keep posting here on your healing and new journey.

HM64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zsu234 (Oct 25, 2010)

Based on your last post, she's been cheating on you your whole marriage. She came onto your sisters husband? Really?


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## LostinUS (Jul 28, 2012)

zsu234 said:


> Based on your last post, she's been cheating on you your whole marriage. She came onto your sisters husband? Really?


That's what he told her. I plan to talk to him this week. Take him out and have a few brews. I'm not mad at him. But if it's true, it'll help me feel less guilt. And coming here to this message board was the best thing I've done. Because now I am finally realizing the only person I can fix is myself.

I took my mom out for lunch today and we started talking about my father's past. How I remember him abusing her sometimes (mentally) and I told myself I would NEVER be dominating or a selfish jerk to a woman. And that I ended up taking that idea to the extreme. 
That I also remember him waiting for apologies or a pity party when things went bad. And that's what I did after the affair. I never got much of one from my STBXW. But I feel like I'm seeking sympathy/ pity from friends and family, including many of you here. And I don't want to dwell on this state of self-pity I'm in forever.
Reading the book when it arrives in a few days and looking within myself hopefully helps me find the answers I'm looking for.


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