# When do friends come before your spouse?



## 2sick

Has anyone's spouse told them they feel more comfortable talking to a friend rather than you? Mine just did. And it hurt to the core. What hurt even more is that he doesn't see why it would hurt..."I'm over sensitive and blowing things out of proportion" . 

H's friend called distraught about marital problem she was having. I have now problem with h talking with a friend, male or female. I did have a problem because h couldn't finish a complete sentence in the conversation..pausing and quick glancing at me... I could tell that he wanted to complete the sentence but not around me. I will admit I stayed around just for that reason...curious if he would ever finish a though. We have been to MC and reached an agreement to be open and honest with each other...complete transparent communication. He said yup I didn't feel comfortable talking to her around you so I didn't say what was on my mind.:scratchhead: He further said I don't see why that's a problem because I need my space...I think I can talk to my friends whatever way I want. I agree he has a right to talk to his friends...but am I wrong to think that if you are going to talk to someone else about private things in your marriage and you feel uncomfortable talking to that person about the issues in front of the spouse, those issues should probably be off limits. It really bothers me to see the wall come up right in front of me. He says it's open and honest for him telling me he wants to tell someone else something he doesn't want to tell me. Yes I will grant him that that was an honest statement...but NOPE not transparent nor open. 

What made it worse, he told her give me a call tomorrow.  Still not seeing why I am upset. The next day comes and when he hadn't heard from her by 11 am he texted her "hope you are doing better, called you at home but didn't leave a message. xoxo"" Mind you that is how he ends his texts with me xoxo...never before with her?!?!? Still saying I'm over reacting. I must say that this is a friend he has known since high school, (about as long as I've known him) he however, never showed signs of affection in his texts before (we all kiss and hug hello...no problem whatsoever with that) 

The main problem I have is the "comfortable" issue...How can you be married to someone and not feel comfortable communicating with them...leaving things out and closing them off. Especially knowing that that is what I think is the main problem....lack of communication. So many things get misconstrued between us just because he doesn't want to open up. He doesn't seem to understand that the only time when I get upset is when he hides things and tells half truths! I wouldn't be half as suspicious about his behavior if just communicated. He says well you have access to most of my communications so just look...but then he say WHY DO YOU SNOOP, just trust me.:scratchhead:


Gosh why can't things be more simple?!? Why can't there be communication between spouses. He say's cause I don't know how you will react...I say well communicate and find out. Sometimes I'll be upset but hey that's life. But I will ALWAYS be even MORE upset finding out afterwards.


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## Lydia

I would be very very concerned about his communication with her.

My H did something similar with an old HS friend, and I nipped it in the bud.

A friend should NEVER come before your spouse. You need to confront him about it. Regardless of if he thinks you are being insecure or overly sensitive (which you aren't!!) he should respect your feelings.

It sounds like it could turn into an emotional affair very quickly, if it hasn't already.

How often does he talk to her or text her? 

He is not comfortable talking to her around you or talking to you about her because he knows what he is doing is wrong.


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## that_girl

Doesn't sound good 

I would be concerned too.

The 'xoxo' in the text would infuriate me. That's a little personal...maybe just "hugs" or whatever...but 'xoxo'? Eesh...I don't know about that.

I have some male friends and have never said "xoxo". One friend I say "much love" but that's platonic and always has been. He says the same to me. His gf and I are friends. 

Do you know her personally?


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## 2sick

Thanks for the replys. 
Lydia, I am starting get that feeling, even though before I didn't give it a second thought. He seems to get too upset abour me questioning him. They have known each other since high school and we all know and interact with each other. They did stop talking for about 12 years, but I talked him into trying to contact her and the family again...Ooops my mistake!! He starred going to lunch with her, but after the 2nd encounter I told him I didn't feel comfortable with only the two of them getting together so thought it be best for only couples or family gatherings. Of course he didn't like it and thought I was being controlling!

Thatgirl, yes I know her and I initially didn't have an issue with her. Until she became touchy feely and one time got drunk and started grinding all over him at her son's bar mitzvah. After that I've been keeping am eye out.

And yes the xoxo really got to me. I thought it was something special for just the two of us...guess not?!?


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## DanF

> When do friends come before your spouse?


Never.
I would never keep a friend's conversation from my wife, whether that friend was male or female.


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## Ten_year_hubby

Quite often, if you're my wife. She has said on several occasions that her friends are more important (and better people) than me because they have empathy for her and I don't. Anyway, we're in counseling if you couldn't have guessed


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## GreenEyes

I don't agree with it at all....I think it's a bunch of B.S.....maybe if marriage didn't take the back burner in so many people's lives the divorce rate wouldn't be so high....people are becoming more and more selfish, and instead of thinking what's best for the relationship they only think about what they need (or want really)....I just don't get it.....sorry that he's being such a douche....


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## ScaredandUnsure

I would be pretty upset if my spouse would prefer talking to friends over me. I hate feeling like I don't matter.


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## Conrad

2sick said:


> Thanks for the replys.
> Lydia, I am starting get that feeling, even though before I didn't give it a second thought. He seems to get too upset abour me questioning him. They have known each other since high school and we all know and interact with each other. They did stop talking for about 12 years, but I talked him into trying to contact her and the family again...Ooops my mistake!! He starred going to lunch with her, but after the 2nd encounter I told him I didn't feel comfortable with only the two of them getting together so thought it be best for only couples or family gatherings. Of course he didn't like it and thought I was being controlling!
> 
> Thatgirl, yes I know her and I initially didn't have an issue with her. Until she became touchy feely and one time got drunk and started grinding all over him at her son's bar mitzvah. After that I've been keeping am eye out.
> 
> And yes the xoxo really got to me. I thought it was something special for just the two of us...guess not?!?


What kind of a childhood did your husband have?


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## COguy

He feels more comfortable talking to her than you. He's sharing marital problems. He's telling her things he won't tell you.

He's moved from friends to EA. This is just the beginning. You need to be escalating the issue now or it's going to get ugly.

Don't appease him, he is cheating on you whether he realizes it or not. If he has a problem with you, he needs to be telling you, not her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bad News

ScaredandUnsure said:


> I would be pretty upset if my spouse would prefer talking to friends over me. I hate feeling like I don't matter.


I am 2sick's husband and as you might expect there are two sides to each story. The notion that I prefer talking to my friends over my wife (2sick) is nonsense. However, its the content/nature of the conversions that is the source of the friction. The friendship in question is 30yrs old, 2sick and I attended their wedding, they attended ours, and our families including children have had numerous gatherings. For this recent episode (as 2sick described) the friend called sobbing and was barely coherent as she was describing a fight that she and her husband had just had. This is the first time I had heard my friend crying, although she revealed to us that she suffers from depression, I had never witnessed the effects. The follow-up text and me admitting to 2sick that I might have been more candid had she not been listening to my side of the conversation is what upset her. This, to me, does not equate to placing friends first nor preferring to talk to friends over my wife.


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## Stonewall

No this is not good at all!!!!


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## Bad News

COguy said:


> He feels more comfortable talking to her than you.


Wrong!



> He's sharing marital problems. He's telling her things he won't tell you.


Yes our discussions include marital issues, and this is a source of the friction - I'm not telling her things 2sick doesn't already know



> He's moved from friends to EA. This is just the beginning. You need to be escalating the issue now or it's going to get ugly.


How do you arrive at EA with what's been posted? So all opposite sex friendships lead to EAs?


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## Bad News

Conrad said:


> What kind of a childhood did your husband have?


How is this relevant, I'd love to hear it!


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## Conrad

Bad News,

Perhaps you'll answer.

What was your childhood like?

Also, would you be willing to restrict your meetings with your female friend to times when your wife is present?


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## GreenEyes

Wow, I know people like "Bad News" all too well.....


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## Bad News

Conrad said:


> Also, would you be willing to restrict your meetings with your female friend to times when your wife is present?


That's part of the issue, 2sick doesn't want us going to lunch anymore, but also isn't always eager to go out as couples/families.


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## Bad News

GreenEyes said:


> Wow, I know people like "Bad News" all too well.....


Really, tell me about myself!


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## surfergirl

Bad News said:


> I am 2sick's husband and as you might expect there are two sides to each story. The notion that I prefer talking to my friends over my wife (2sick) is nonsense. However, its the content/nature of the conversions that is the source of the friction. The friendship in question is 30yrs old, 2sick and I attended their wedding, they attended ours, and our families including children have had numerous gatherings. For this recent episode (as 2sick described) the friend called sobbing and was barely coherent as she was describing a fight that she and her husband had just had. This is the first time I had heard my friend crying, although she revealed to us that she suffers from depression, I had never witnessed the effects. The follow-up text and me admitting to 2sick that I might have been more candid had she not been listening to my side of the conversation is what upset her. This, to me, does not equate to placing friends first nor preferring to talk to friends over my wife.


It doesn't matter how you try and dress it up or justify your actions, the bottom line is, it upsets your wife and you need to put her needs and feelings before your friend's. If you continue to behave in the way you have been in regard to this matter then yes....you are most definitely putting a friend before your wife.

It's that simple.


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## 2sick

Conrad said:


> Bad News,
> 
> Perhaps you'll answer.
> 
> What was your childhood like?
> 
> Also, would you be willing to restrict your meetings with your female friend to times when your wife is present?


WOW!!! That was our morning argument!! We have had a mutually agreed upon arrangement where we would only go out as couples or a family...he decided that it was actually me trying to control him and it turned from a mutual agreement to a single demand of an over sensitive woman....Therefore, he wants to change his mind and start seeing her alone again (against my request and and better judgment)...but hey I'm just an emotionally insecure paranoid woman who doesn't want her husband to do whatever he wants. :scratchhead: 

We had agreed through our MC that we should not be introducing family or friends into our marital issues without the other. He obviously doesn't agree. We both sat down and calmly discussed the importance of the friendship and there wasn't a need for them to go out alone. He now has "changed his mind" and thinks that it would be the same if he was hanging out with another man....hmmmm don't think he would have any male friends trying to grind on him...just saying drunk or not if it is purely platonic it would be like a brother/sister relation and I hope it would be repulsive to have your sister grind you on the dance floor.

So to make a long answer longer, no he feels he should not be "restricted" ( I put it in quotes because that is his word that was used this morning...He thinks I am treating him as a child and putting restrictions on him). I said not like a child but like a spouse....our marital vows should actually hold up for something!!!


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## 2sick

surfergirl said:


> It doesn't matter how you try and dress it up or justify your actions, the bottom line is, it upsets your wife and you need to put her needs and feelings before your friend's. If you continue to behave in the way you have been in regard to this matter then yes....you are most definitely putting a friend before your wife.
> 
> It's that simple.


Thank you!! I know there are people out there that think I'm over reacting but that is EXACTLY how I feel!!! This morning I told him if I decided to draw a line and he would have to choose...you know what he chose...yep..."I have the right to do whatever I want...If I want to go to lunch with her I will!!" Then I said ok you told me all I need to know...she is more important to you than your wife!! He again insists no you are number one to me!:scratchhead::scratchhead: Not quite sure how that works...someone please explain!


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## surfergirl

Why does he have to meet her alone....why are you not invited (as you should be)?


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## that_girl

He won't give up the friendship, which says a lot.


If my hubs was upset about a friendship I had, I would listen to his concerns and try to ease them, but if he was really bothered, I'd have to cut the friendship.

Your hubs is using the "controlling" thing and "restricted" thing because he doesn't want to give her up, for whatever reason.

He told you that you are number one because he doesn't want you to be upset..but ACTIONS speak louder than words and frankly, you aren't #1.


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## that_girl

surfergirl said:


> It doesn't matter how you try and dress it up or justify your actions, the bottom line is, it upsets your wife and you need to put her needs and feelings before your friend's. If you continue to behave in the way you have been in regard to this matter then yes....you are most definitely putting a friend before your wife.
> 
> It's that simple.


:iagree: 100%.


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## Conrad

Bad News said:


> That's part of the issue, 2sick doesn't want us going to lunch anymore, but also isn't always eager to go out as couples/families.


What does "not eager" mean?

Does it mean anytime your friend beckons you - and you feel the urge to rush to the rescue?


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## Conrad

2sick,

What was his childhood like?


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## 2sick

ScaredandUnsure said:


> I would be pretty upset if my spouse would prefer talking to friends over me. I hate feeling like I don't matter.


:iagree:
The funny thing is he doesn't see it at all! He can talk to her about us...about his feelings about us...but he can't talk to me about her (without me be demanding and controlling)...and he can't talk to her about us in front of me?!?!? He says well it's stuff that you already know. HMMM if it's stuff that I already know, then WTF, why would he feel "uncomfortable" talking about something I know in front of me!! I'm just saying makes no sense to me!!!


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## that_girl

Your wife feels that you pay another women more attention.

It's not hard to figure out what to do. Your friend has other friends to call, no? Well, your wife only has one husband...


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## 2sick

surfergirl said:


> Why does he have to meet her alone....why are you not invited (as you should be)?


Good question!! Maybe he'll tell you cause I don't have a freak'n idea!!! Pisses me off! And actually, if you notice he is actually responding a lot about this subject...More than he has communicated about any other issue?!?!? He feels quite strongly about this and it's making me truly wonder now.


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## Bad News

surfergirl said:


> It doesn't matter how you try and dress it up or justify your actions, the bottom line is, it upsets your wife and you need to put her needs and feelings before your friend's. If you continue to behave in the way you have been in regard to this matter then yes....you are most definitely putting a friend before your wife.
> 
> It's that simple.


What am I dressing up? This didn't become an issue until the next day, 2sick kept asking me at work if I had spoken with the friend but I hadn't. I placed a call to her and sent her a text but hadn't heard from her, but 2sick was suspicious and later suggested that I had gone to a long lunch with her because I went to Panera Bread for lunch (she checked the bank account) and texted 2sick at 1:30 that I had a meeting. She also checked ATT.com to see what call/msgs were being sent and received.


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## 2sick

Conrad said:


> 2sick,
> 
> What was his childhood like?


I'll let him talk about that. Even though I'm controlling and have to have my way, I'll respect his decision on whether or not to bring up his childhood...but I do see where you are going!


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## Bad News

Let me preface my response by saying 2sick and I love many of your post and would love to know why you were banned.



that_girl said:


> Your wife feels that you pay another women more attention.
> 
> It's not hard to figure out what to do. Your friend has other friends to call, no? Well, your wife only has one husband...


More attention, no way, not even close! Some attention, yes. And I was surprised to get this call, I only have 2 close friends (both female) but I assume that she has many and that I was probably not the first person she attempted call.


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## 2sick

Bad News said:


> That's part of the issue, 2sick doesn't want us going to lunch anymore, but also isn't always eager to go out as couples/families.


I have not not gone out as couples!!! I completely understand the need to keep friends...even those of the opposite sex so I go out of my way to befriend her. I have cooked for her and the family and I say that because I'm anal and have to go ALL OUT when prepare for guests. There to I've been slapped in the face...he comes back and says "I didn't tell you to do all that"...Guess damned if I do and damned if I don't. (I should also mention that during this family dinner party, h and friend went off separately to talk about "us" and then had the nerve to say they were talking about something else...even though I was standing behind the wall listening!!) 

So I will admit no I'm not eager, but I see the importance of this relationship so I go!


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## that_girl

Ha! I was banned for a stupid reason. No biggie 

Well, your wife isn't comfortable with it. And I've learned that it's not about who's right or wrong, it's about feelings.

Whether you think she's being rational or not, she has a problem with this.

Respect that.

It's all about perception. YOUR BIGGEST CONCERN should be how your wife perceives this....NOT what you know is true. It's hard to 'get' but once you do, it makes things more manageable.


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## 2sick

that_girl said:


> He won't give up the friendship, which says a lot.
> 
> 
> If my hubs was upset about a friendship I had, I would listen to his concerns and try to ease them, but if he was really bothered, I'd have to cut the friendship.
> 
> Your hubs is using the "controlling" thing and "restricted" thing because he doesn't want to give her up, for whatever reason.
> 
> He told you that you are number one because he doesn't want you to be upset..but ACTIONS speak louder than words and frankly, you aren't #1.


I agree 1 million % . His actions are speaking loud and clear! I understand that he has known her since high school...He's known AND dated me on and off since I was 13!!! As I've told him I am willing to go out as couples and family but I don't trust her... the drunk grinding in front of me, her husband, and everyone else was the straw!!! She's instigating... and I don't like it!! He seems to be blind to that...or just likes it! Not sure but either way it sucks!!!


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## Conrad

2sick said:


> I agree 1 million % . His actions are speaking loud and clear! I understand that he has known her since high school...He's known AND dated me on and off since I was 13!!! As I've told him I am willing to go out as couples and family but I don't trust her... the drunk grinding in front of me, her husband, and everyone else was the straw!!! She's instigating... and I don't like it!! He seems to be blind to that...or just likes it! Not sure but either way it sucks!!!


I'll try this a different way.

What would his reaction be if you were drunk and grinding on another guy in front of him?

Bad News - feel free to answer as well.


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## 2sick

Bad News said:


> Let me preface my response by saying 2sick and I love many of your post and would love to know why you were banned.
> 
> 
> 
> More attention, no way, not even close! Some attention, yes. And I was surprised to get this call, I only have 2 close friends (both female) but I assume that she has many and that I was probably not the first person she attempted call.



Heck yeah he was surprised because she usually calls him at work or on his cell phone unless its about scheduling a night out... sooo I was surprised too. Wasn't surprised that he wouldn't express himself in front of me. So, yes he was caught off guard because she changed up the dynamics, and wasn't sure how to react since I was there.


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## that_girl

Yea. Not finished sentences while talking to her...is silly unless there's something to hide.

And I wouldn't trust her either. People who 'grind' on other people's spouses have no reason to be trusted. I don't care how long their friendship has been...there has to be boundaries. Clearly there aren't any.


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## 2sick

Conrad said:


> I'll try this a different way.
> 
> What would his reaction be if you were drunk and grinding on another guy in front of him?
> 
> Bad News - feel free to answer as well.


Well, don't think he would go for that at all!!! I ran into an old boyfriend, before we were married. We were going to a church function and I greeted him and told him he was looking good and fixed his tie....H remembers that to this day....I will admit I intentionally did that to get his attention! It did!!! 

And to answer your question in another way...NO MATTER HOW DRUNK I GOT (and I dooooo loooove to drink) I WOULD NEVER EVER EVER GRIND ON ANOTHER MAN nor would I even think about it!!!


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## surfergirl

Bad News said:


> What am I dressing up? This didn't become an issue until the next day, 2sick kept asking me at work if I had spoken with the friend but I hadn't. I placed a call to her and sent her a text but hadn't heard from her, but 2sick was suspicious and later suggested that I had gone to a long lunch with her because I went to Panera Bread for lunch (she checked the bank account) and texted 2sick at 1:30 that I had a meeting. She also checked ATT.com to see what call/msgs were being sent and received.


Okay Bad News....here's what I get from the very basic amount of information in this thread.

You and your wife are already in MC, so there are obviously issues within your relationship that have caused some kind of concern for you both. The fact that the councellor has suggested that you both be open and honest with eachother and practice "tranparent communication" would indicate that there are possibly trust issues.

Your wife has seen your friend "grind" you at a party (drunk or not...it doesn't matter...being drunk is no excuse) and now this same friend is having marriage problems of her own and she calls you. In your own words, this seemed strange because she has other friends she could have called. Why you? Why only you and not your wife as well.

For whatever reason, your wife is feeling vulnerable right now and the best thing you can do is to step up to the plate as her husband and support her in a way that leaves her feeling valued by you. 

When you are married, you can't just do what you want, when you want, with whom ever you want - so yes, being married means living with restrictions. 

Have you mentioned to your friend how upset all this is making your wife? If so....what was her response? If not....why not?


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## 2sick

that_girl said:


> Ha! I was banned for a stupid reason. No biggie
> 
> Well, your wife isn't comfortable with it. And I've learned that it's not about who's right or wrong, it's about feelings.
> 
> Whether you think she's being rational or not, she has a problem with this.
> 
> Respect that.
> 
> It's all about perception. YOUR BIGGEST CONCERN should be how your wife perceives this....NOT what you know is true. It's hard to 'get' but once you do, it makes things more manageable.


You are reading my heart!!! I can't stop crying. That is exactly how I feel and it is tearing me apart that he just doesn't see that..or just doesn't care! Don't know which is worse.


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## 2sick

that_girl said:


> Yea. Not finished sentences while talking to her...is silly unless there's something to hide.
> 
> And I wouldn't trust her either. People who 'grind' on other people's spouses have no reason to be trusted. I don't care how long their friendship has been...there has to be boundaries. Clearly there aren't any.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: Where are the boundaries!!!


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## Conrad

2sick said:


> Well, don't think he would go for that at all!!! I ran into an old boyfriend, before we were married. We were going to a church function and I greeted him and told him he was looking good and fixed his tie....H remembers that to this day....I will admit I intentionally did that to get his attention! It did!!!
> 
> And to answer your question in another way...NO MATTER HOW DRUNK I GOT (and I dooooo loooove to drink) I WOULD NEVER EVER EVER GRIND ON ANOTHER MAN nor would I even think about it!!!


If we go on long enough here, I'm pretty certain I can get Bad News to blame you for his behavior.

Call it a premonition - based on what I believe happened in his childhood.

If you want me to, I'll explain fully.


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## that_girl

2sick...what about your childhood?

How was your relationship with your parents?


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## surfergirl

Conrad....can you explain it for me? (pleeeeaaaase). 'Cause I don't see the connection and I'd like to.


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## that_girl

And imho, any woman who carries on this way, KNOWING a man is married, is not to be trusted. Period.


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## GreenEyes

Bad News said:


> Really, tell me about myself!


LOL I live with someone like you.....let me guess you had a crappy childhood, because yes your childhood does have an effect on how you handle life and marriage as an adult, whether you want to admit it or not. Here's what I"ll tell you for sure about yourself, the relationship that you are carrying on with this friend of 30 years is bullsh*t.....there isn't a damn thing that you shouldn't have been able to say with your wife in the room if you were truly just trying to console her.....and ending a text to her with xoxoxo?????? Seriously????


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## that_girl

GreenEyes said:


> LOL I live with someone like you.....let me guess you had a crappy childhood, because yes your childhood does have an effect on how you handle life and marriage as an adult, whether you want to admit it or not. Here's what I"ll tell you for sure about yourself, the relationship that you are carrying on with this friend of 30 years is bullsh*t.....there isn't a damn thing that you shouldn't have been able to say with your wife in the room if you were truly just trying to console her.....and ending a text to her with xoxoxo?????? Seriously????


Yea...the 'xoxo' part is odd.

If one of my male friends texted me with xoxo, I'd be like, :wtf: and nip that really quick.


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## surfergirl

There are none so blind as those who don't wish to see. *sigh*


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## GreenEyes

that_girl said:


> And imho, any woman who carries on this way, KNOWING a man is married, is not to be trusted. Period.


:iagree: My H had a girl friend that he talked to and texted and all this crap, talked to her about our marital problems, met up with her at the gym and whatever else, and when my H's sister and I told this girl that what she was doing was wrong and she needed to quit talking to my H, she ran crying to my H about it, which caused a huge fight between me and the H of course, but it's like really??? You know he's married, move on and find another friend...


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## COguy

why the hell are you two arguing on the internet and not talking in person??

badnews, your wife is uncomfortable (for good reason). however irrational she may be (shes not) you support your wife because she is your first priority.

by not supporting your wife first you are choosing someone over your wife, and yes, that is cheating.

this forum is full of people who have been in your shoes and ended in infidelity. ignore our advice at your own peril.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GreenEyes

that_girl said:


> Yea...the 'xoxo' part is odd.
> 
> If one of my male friends texted me with xoxo, I'd be like, :wtf: and nip that really quick.


Exactly, I have had a few of my male friends, that I had been friends with forever, say some inappropriate things over text and I just quit texting them because it's like really? You know better than that....my friends were my friends and I love them, but when you are married your spouse should always come first...


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## 2sick

Bad News said:


> What am I dressing up? This didn't become an issue until the next day, 2sick kept asking me at work if I had spoken with the friend but I hadn't. I placed a call to her and sent her a text but hadn't heard from her, but 2sick was suspicious and later suggested that I had gone to a long lunch with her because I went to Panera Bread for lunch (she checked the bank account) and texted 2sick at 1:30 that I had a meeting. She also checked ATT.com to see what call/msgs were being sent and received.


I was asking him because I noticed that there was a text to AND from his friend. He kept saying he hadn't heard from her, but I saw on the account that in fact he received a text a minute after he sent his xoxo text message. And yes already suspicious I became even more so when he said he had to go to a meeting and that he went to Panera (that is important because that is where he and I go on lunch dates). So for someone who has to get to a meeting, I found it puzzling that he would leave the base and go to an extremely busy lunch place. So yep I must admit...paranoid...first h doesn't want to openly talk with me around, second, tells her to call him the next day, third he denies receiving a text that I see on the account was made, and forth goes to our lunch date place right before having to get to meeting! I guess I'm a paranoid, over sensitive control freak, but hey it bothered me!!!


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## 2sick

that_girl said:


> Yea...the 'xoxo' part is odd.
> 
> If one of my male friends texted me with xoxo, I'd be like, :wtf: and nip that really quick.


:iagree::iagree:


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## that_girl

Yea. I have male friends but don't talk to them about personal stuff. It's usually about art or music (two of my passions and hobbies).

Hubs has some female friends (one is a close friend of mine now) and they talk about cars and tools (omg I've seen the texts...zzzzz).

But when we were dating (about 2 weeks into it), we had a date and hubs texted me saying he may not make it because "something came up". I knew right away that some betch had some issue, etc...sure enough, his old friend called him crying cause her BF was being a jerk, blah blah blah.

He texted me about 20 minutes later saying everything was ok..and I askd what happened and he told me.

And I said, "Well, I think I'll cancel the date then. If you were so quick to rush to her side, then you can spend the night alone  " 
LOL He was ringing my doorbell at 1am trying to apologize. He got the message really quick.

I don't play second fiddle to anyone...and I sure as hell won't be stood up for some other chick, no matter if it is a friend.

See, men don't "get" women. Women aren't so innocent. She is calling him for a reason. I've never known a woman who calls a married man for 'advice' to have no other motive. Yes, I have male friends but when shet hits the fan, it's my girls that I call on. 

Men want to help and all that. But they don't see what I know to be true  Women who hang around with married men are up to no good. Trust me.


----------



## 2sick

COguy said:


> why the hell are you two arguing on the internet and not talking in person??
> 
> badnews, your wife is uncomfortable (for good reason). however irrational she may be (shes not) you support your wife because she is your first priority.
> 
> by not supporting your wife first you are choosing someone over your wife, and yes, that is cheating.
> 
> this forum is full of people who have been in your shoes and ended in infidelity. ignore our advice at your own peril.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL!! Believe it or not we are sitting right next to each other! And yep we are talking...we are just NOT agreeing:rofl::rofl::rofl: He doesn't see it as supporting me...he sees it at me trying to manipulate him and control his every move. It's our typical argument..." he wants his space and freedom ...I want open communication with a spouse who feels "comfortable" talking to and around the other spouse!!! 

We've (he) scheduled an emergency MC appointment since I'm so irrational. So we'll see!!!


----------



## Conrad

surfergirl said:


> Conrad....can you explain it for me? (pleeeeaaaase). 'Cause I don't see the connection and I'd like to.


Surfergirl,

Child abuse comes in all shapes and sizes. It can be sexual (the worst), verbal, or it can simply be neglect. The message the child starts to receive is that they're vulnerable - and those charged with their protection can't be trusted.

A child doesn't have the necessary emotional defenses to counter any of this, so they develop coping strategies. This is where many adults with trust issues come from.

But, it goes deeper than that. The abuse often takes the form of harsh punishment - or at least that is how it's perceived. So, these innocent folks grow to adulthood being terrified of making mistakes - of any kind. In fact, the punishment was often so swift and severe that even contemplating ADMITTING a mistake is so frightening, they're paralyzed with fear.

What's the logical defense to this? Blameshifting.

We all blameshift sometimes. But, on TAM you read story after story of people that simply have no conscience. There is no amount of pain they WON'T subject their partner to in an effort to avoid that fear of punishment. And they won't apologize.

They often "love" their partner. But, they harbor secret anger. Anger at any sort of authority/accountability.

You see an example of it here.

People that suffer from this must REALLY want to conquer it.

Most simply will not do it.


----------



## that_girl

Dude. The only time someone is "controlling" is when you don't agree or want to do what they want.

Just like nagging is only nagging when you don't want to do it.

I have a very dear friend. A man I have known for 7 years and never dated. We met at a spiritual meeting, blah blah. IF Hubs had a problem with that friendship, as much as it would hurt, I would break it off and my friend knows it and accepts it. 

thankfully, Hubs doesn't mind and my friend and I don't hang out. We catch each other online sometimes but for the most part, it's a long distance/much time between friendship now.

Was there ever a time in your Hubs past with this woman where they dated or flirted or entertained the idea?

If so, that makes it even more suspect about her motives.


----------



## 2sick

that_girl said:


> Yea. I have male friends but don't talk to them about personal stuff. It's usually about art or music (two of my passions and hobbies).
> 
> Hubs has some female friends (one is a close friend of mine now) and they talk about cars and tools (omg I've seen the texts...zzzzz).
> 
> But when we were dating (about 2 weeks into it), we had a date and hubs texted me saying he may not make it because "something came up". I knew right away that some betch had some issue, etc...sure enough, his old friend called him crying cause her BF was being a jerk, blah blah blah.
> 
> He texted me about 20 minutes later saying everything was ok..and I askd what happened and he told me.
> 
> And I said, "Well, I think I'll cancel the date then. If you were so quick to rush to her side, then you can spend the night alone  "
> LOL He was ringing my doorbell at 1am trying to apologize. He got the message really quick.
> 
> I don't play second fiddle to anyone...and I sure as hell won't be stood up for some other chick, no matter if it is a friend.
> 
> See, men don't "get" women. Women aren't so innocent. She is calling him for a reason. I've never known a woman who calls a married man for 'advice' to have no other motive. Yes, I have male friends but when shet hits the fan, it's my girls that I call on.
> 
> Men want to help and all that. But they don't see what I know to be true  Women who hang around with married men are up to no good. Trust me.


EXACTLY!!! And what REALLY pisses me off is that he wants to label me as insecure for not wanting to play second fiddle!!! AND YES miss perfect is not innocent but he doesn't see that...I'm paranoid and making something out of nothing!! But How long have we been responding about this!?!?! HMMMM just saying!!


----------



## that_girl

Well, he doesn't want to give up the friendship just to prove the point that you can't tell him what to do.

Fine.

That will just ruin any intimacy with his wife and his marriage will suffer.

Seems like a good trade


----------



## Bad News

Conrad said:


> I'll try this a different way.
> 
> What would his reaction be if you were drunk and grinding on another guy in front of him?
> 
> Bad News - feel free to answer as well.


Well, this would be totally out of character for 2sick, but if the roles were similarly reversed it would certainly get my attention and I'd probably tease 2sick and the grinding partner. But I'm not the jealous type so I can say that it would bother me as much as its bothering 2sick.


----------



## Conrad

Bad News said:


> Well, this would be totally out of character for 2sick, but if the roles were similarly reversed it would certainly get my attention and I'd probably tease 2sick and the grinding partner. But I'm not the jealous type so I can say that it would bother me as much as its bothering 2sick.


In other words, she's good to you, so you don't have to worry about something that despicable.

This is called cake eating.


----------



## that_girl

It's easy to say you wouldn't get upset about something that would never happen 

I can't imagine 2sick letting some dude grind on her.


----------



## 2sick

that_girl said:


> Dude. The only time someone is "controlling" is when you don't agree or want to do what they want.
> 
> Just like nagging is only nagging when you don't want to do it.
> 
> I have a very dear friend. A man I have known for 7 years and never dated. We met at a spiritual meeting, blah blah. IF Hubs had a problem with that friendship, as much as it would hurt, I would break it off and my friend knows it and accepts it.
> 
> thankfully, Hubs doesn't mind and my friend and I don't hang out. We catch each other online sometimes but for the most part, it's a long distance/much time between friendship now.
> 
> Was there ever a time in your Hubs past with this woman where they dated or flirted or entertained the idea?
> 
> If so, that makes it even more suspect about her motives.


He says no and that there have been numerous opportunities?!?!? SOOOO I honestly don't know. My feeling is that she is staking her territory...on land that is already owned sort of speak!! She wants to make sure that he puts her first..so far she's got him under her thumb! And he doesn't even know it!! He said that she had asked him out to lunch a couple of months ago...and ended the statement with "if you are allowed!!" Don't know about you but I see that as a manipulative beeetch!!! But again it's his friend and I'm not telling to cut off all ties just keep it as couples and family...no need for one on one. 

But yes I believe her motives are suspect no matter what he says.


----------



## 2sick

that_girl said:


> Well, he doesn't want to give up the friendship just to prove the point that you can't tell him what to do.
> 
> Fine.
> 
> That will just ruin any intimacy with his wife and his marriage will suffer.
> 
> Seems like a good trade


 I KNOW!! We are spending money on MC instead of a good date night over this beetch!!!


----------



## that_girl

Yea, she doesn't respect you or the marriage.

"If you're allowed?" That's what a shady person says to tease the person and make them feel "entitled" to go out.

His response should have been, "Allowed? I am not a child. Wtf. Sure, we can go to lunch...I'll see when my wife is free."

One on one dining is a date. sorry, but it is.

She didn't invite you, 2sick. Big red flag. When I invite people for lunch, I always say "We look forward to seeing you!" cause my Hubs comes with. 

Your husband knows it's a little "off" but he likes the attention. That's why he's hiding conversations and the such. 

Yea. I don't trust most women. Especially women who hang out with married men and make jokes about the wife...."allowed..." wtf. I bet they both laughed. Oh so funny. Not.


----------



## 2sick

Bad News said:


> Well, this would be totally out of character for 2sick, but if the roles were similarly reversed it would certainly get my attention and I'd probably tease 2sick and the grinding partner. But I'm not the jealous type so I can say that it would bother me as much as its bothering 2sick.


BERNIE!?!?!?!? And I just fixed his tie! :rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Conrad

2sick said:


> He says no and that there have been numerous opportunities?!?!? SOOOO I honestly don't know. My feeling is that she is staking her territory...on land that is already owned sort of speak!! She wants to make sure that he puts her first..so far she's got him under her thumb! And he doesn't even know it!! He said that she had asked him out to lunch a couple of months ago...and ended the statement with "if you are allowed!!" Don't know about you but I see that as a manipulative beeetch!!! But again it's his friend and I'm not telling to cut off all ties just keep it as couples and family...no need for one on one.
> 
> But yes I believe her motives are suspect no matter what he says.


Admitting what he's doing would make an apology necessary.

Read my other post as to why that's not coming.


----------



## Conrad

2sick said:


> BERNIE!?!?!?!? And I just fixed his tie! :rofl::rofl::rofl:


2sick,

It's pure blameshifting.

Like I said, you peel this one back far enough and it will be your fault.


----------



## 2sick

Conrad said:


> In other words, she's good to you, so you don't have to worry about something that despicable.
> 
> This is called cake eating.


OMG that has been my side of many arguments!! He says I'm always setting rules and he doesn't...No sh!t he doesn't need to!! I would NEVER even THINK about doing half the crap he does. I have set internal rules for myself and have respect for the sanctity of marriage!!!


----------



## that_girl

How old are you guys?


----------



## Conrad

2sick said:


> OMG that has been my side of many arguments!! He says I'm always setting rules and he doesn't...No sh!t he doesn't need to!! I would NEVER even THINK about doing half the crap he does. I have set internal rules for myself and have respect for the sanctity of marriage!!!


Please settle down.

I know you are mad as hell.

That won't accomplish anything.

You need to understand what you are dealing with and why.


----------



## 2sick

that_girl said:


> Yea, she doesn't respect you or the marriage.
> 
> "If you're allowed?" That's what a shady person says to tease the person and make them feel "entitled" to go out.
> 
> His response should have been, "Allowed? I am not a child. Wtf. Sure, we can go to lunch...I'll see when my wife is free."
> 
> One on one dining is a date. sorry, but it is.
> 
> She didn't invite you, 2sick. Big red flag. When I invite people for lunch, I always say "We look forward to seeing you!" cause my Hubs comes with.
> 
> Your husband knows it's a little "off" but he likes the attention. That's why he's hiding conversations and the such.
> 
> Yea. I don't trust most women. Especially women who hang out with married men and make jokes about the wife...."allowed..." wtf. I bet they both laughed. Oh so funny. Not.


WOW!!! You are like in my mind!!! I don't understand why he can't see this. Talk after talk after talk.....It's even gotten to the point were I'm saying you want your space and freedom... ya know where the door is!! That obviously isn't what I want, but I DON'T want this...a Mexican standoff (sorry if there are any mexicans offended by that!) All for what?!?!


----------



## Bad News

GreenEyes said:


> LOL I live with someone like you.....


If that were truly the case then you're pretty lucky!



> let me guess you had a crappy childhood, because yes your childhood does have an effect on how you handle life and marriage as an adult, whether you want to admit it or not.
> Here's what I"ll tell you for sure about yourself, the relationship that you are carrying on with this friend of 30 years is bullsh*t.....there isn't a damn thing that you shouldn't have been able to say with your wife in the room if you were truly just trying to console her.....and ending a text to her with xoxoxo?????? Seriously????


I love the free psychotherapy! Childhood wasn't crappy nor was it stellar, and I agree that your childhood affects how you act/behave as an adult.

Anonymous forums are great for expressing quick judgments like "carrying on with this friend of 30 years is bullsh*t". I'll admit that admitting to 2sick that I felt uncomfortable talking freely is an issue that I need to address. And as far as the xoxo goes, that not how I typically end texts with this friend, but can refrain in the future.


----------



## 2sick

that_girl said:


> How old are you guys?


I'm 44 (45 on valentine's day) H is 47.


----------



## that_girl

2sick said:


> WOW!!! You are like in my mind!!! I don't understand why he can't see this. Talk after talk after talk.....It's even gotten to the point were I'm saying you want your space and freedom... ya know where the door is!! That obviously isn't what I want, but I DON'T want this...a Mexican standoff (sorry if there are any mexicans offended by that!) All for what?!?!


I've been in your shoes many times in relationships. 

Led me to believe I just wasn't worth it. For anyone to chose me first over someone else. Even my own fathers chose other women over me.

Sucks to feel that way, because it's not true.


----------



## that_girl

2sick said:


> I'm 44 (45 on valentine's day) H is 47.


Ok, so you're not children 

He should know how actions make people feel. 

You should know not to believe people when they tell you what you are...'irrational' etc. You know what you feel. 

Feelings are never wrong. The perception could be wrong, but the feeling isn't.


----------



## Conrad

2sick said:


> I'm 44 (45 on valentine's day) H is 47.


Does he apologize?


----------



## Conrad

that_girl said:


> Ok, so you're not children
> 
> He should know how actions make people feel.
> 
> You should know not to believe people when they tell you what you are...'irrational' etc. You know what you feel.
> 
> Feelings are never wrong. The perception could be wrong, but the feeling isn't.


If you're emotionally broken, other things are more important than how your partner feels.

In fact, it's almost impossible to see them.


----------



## that_girl

Conrad said:


> If you're emotionally broken, other things are more important than how your partner feels.
> 
> In fact, it's almost impossible to see them.


For sure!

I think IC is needed here. Not MC.


----------



## Conrad

that_girl said:


> For sure!
> 
> I think IC is needed here. Not MC.


TG,

Broken folks think in terms of "winning and losing" 100% either way.

Any sort of compromise feels like "losing", so they don't.

When you "lose", punishment follows.

The circuits are just plain busted.


----------



## 2sick

that_girl said:


> Ok, so you're not children
> 
> He should know how actions make people feel.
> 
> You should know not to believe people when they tell you what you are...'irrational' etc. You know what you feel.
> 
> Feelings are never wrong. The perception could be wrong, but the feeling isn't.


LOL Yup No spring chicks here!!! 

And sorry don't know how to multiple quote ... but wanted to say that yes it sucks when you aren't chosen over another woman, and I'm sorry your own dad did that to you!! That's gotta hurt the most!


----------



## that_girl

Conrad said:


> TG,
> 
> Broken folks think in terms of "winning and losing" 100% either way.
> 
> Any sort of compromise feels like "losing", so they don't.
> 
> When you "lose", punishment follows.
> 
> The circuits are just plain busted.


Believe me, I know. I used to be broken. 

Hubs left and I woke up and checked into therapy.

Letting go of my crazy notion of perfection was very liberating.

I don't have to win or lose. I just have to 'be'.


----------



## Bad News

surfergirl said:


> When you are married, you can't just do what you want, when you want, with whom ever you want - so yes, being married means living with restrictions.


No kidding, but I feel as though every communication/contact with this friend needs to be approved ahead of time, shared and then analyzed. 2sick and I talk about EVERYTHING but somethings just don't get resolved (obviously). If I want a second opinion or sounding board it seems that unless I pay a therapist 100/hr I'm SOL or talk to one two close female friend which come with restrictions/repercussions.


----------



## that_girl

Well, your friend has proven to have NO boundaries with you.

I mean, she grinded you in front of your wife. 2sick has every right to not trust this woman or her intentions.

It may have nothing to do with you, but everything to do with your friend.


----------



## Conrad

that_girl said:


> For sure!
> 
> I think IC is needed here. Not MC.


I agree.

Yet, IC only works if the broken person WANTS it.

And, it's still difficult.


----------



## Bad News

that_girl said:


> How old are you guys?


Me 47, 2sick 44, married 17yrs, known each other for 31yrs.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I have not read every response here, so please forgive me ...what stood out...... 

Witnessing this female friend grinding on your husband...(did she ever apologize for her drunken loss of control??) .....Her calling knowing you are right there --but choosing to talk to him instead (all being close friends enough to hug & kiss each other).... Her thinking nothing of calling/texting him at work, his using xoxo's, the 2 of them going out to eat alone ....

This is terrible Boundary crossing on HER end to begin with....and as That_Girl said.. a response from Bad News should be in order like this ...."*Sure, we can go to lunch...I'll see when my wife is free*." 

Anything less is wrong and inviting suspicions into the marriage. 

Have you ever had it out with HER, stating how this makes you feel - as you was all close friends -or was !? 

And Bad News is not at all helping matters by refusing to tell you what was spoken about but leaving it in the "you know it all anyway honey " catagory........hmmmmmm Not WISE Bad News!!! ANY hot blooded wife would be upset by such smoothing it over and being so elusive. Me , personally I would be way more upset about that particular "unwillingness" -the blowing off nature - over what was accually said.... 

In our marriage, the talking to an opposite sex friend would not be a huge issue .....my husband has even suggested one of his co-workers talk to me before. Husband thought I would have better advice. 

But for us... neither would EVER do the xoxo's (that is too lovey dovery), go out alone with an opposite sex friend (why taunt temptation), get drunk & grind (just bad bad bad) , call at work (too secretive) , or even hug & kiss each other (too close for comfort, but I guess many Italians are like this !)

It sounds as though you had some kind of earlier agreement to always go out as a Couple.... what happened there? 

Get back to those agreed upon Boundaries that makes your wife feel loved , #1 and secure, and Heavens, never make excuses why you can't speak about what you were saying to any of your friends. If she gets mad, try to see her side in why she may feel it was crossing an emotional boundary.


----------



## Conrad

I'm not nearly as worried about her friend apologizing as I am about HIM apologizing.

Did he?

It sure doesn't sound like it.

2sick, I'll stop if you want. I think I know why you don't want to answer my questions.

I've been there too.


----------



## 2sick

Bad News said:


> No kidding, but I feel as though every communication/contact with this friend needs to be approved ahead of time, shared and then analyzed. 2sick and I talk about EVERYTHING but somethings just don't get resolved (obviously). If I want a second opinion or sounding board it seems that unless I pay a therapist 100/hr I'm SOL or talk to one two close female friend which come with restrictions/repercussions.


No we don't talk about everything...just found out this morning that she asked you out to lunch again several months ago and that you had a conversation with your other female friend about this female friend's situation!!! All of this just came out...again THAT is my problem we don't communicate and I only get full disclosure after I have had enough and have blown up!! 

I'm not upset about you having friends, never have been, never will. I have never said everything has to be pre-approved about the communications...I have said BOUNDARIES MUST BE SET!!! and I still feel that way. Marital issues need to stay just that!! I'm not sure why trying to communicate is a problem. I ask friends about other friends, so I don't see the problem of wanting to know about h's friends, and how and what they are doing. I just don't get it.


----------



## Conrad

2sick,

Boundaries need to be set?

THEN SET THEM


----------



## 2sick

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have not read every response here, so please forgive me ...what stood out......
> 
> Witnessing this female friend grinding on your husband...(did she ever apologize for her drunken loss of control??) .....Her calling knowing you are right there --but choosing to talk to him instead (all being close friends enough to hug & kiss each other).... Her thinking nothing of calling/texting him at work, his using xoxo's, the 2 of them going out to eat alone ....
> 
> This is terrible Boundary crossing on HER end to begin with....and as That_Girl said.. a response from Bad News should be in order like this ...."*Sure, we can go to lunch...I'll see when my wife is free*."
> 
> Anything less is wrong and inviting suspicions into the marriage.
> 
> Have you ever had it out with HER, stating how this makes you feel - as you was all close friends -or was !?
> 
> And Bad News is not at all helping matters by refusing to tell you what was spoken about but leaving it in the "you know it all anyway honey " catagory........hmmmmmm Not WISE Bad News!!! ANY hot blooded wife would be upset by such smoothing it over and being so elusive. Me , personally I would be way more upset about that particular "unwillingness" -the blowing off nature - over what was accually said....
> 
> In our marriage, the talking to an opposite sex friend would not be a huge issue .....my husband has even suggested one of his co-workers talk to me before. Husband thought I would have better advice.
> 
> But for us... neither would EVER do the xoxo's (that is too lovey dovery), go out alone with an opposite sex friend (why taunt temptation), get drunk & grind (just bad bad bad) , call at work (too secretive) , or even hug & kiss each other (too close for comfort, but I guess many Italians are like this !)
> 
> It sounds as though you had some kind of earlier agreement to always go out as a Couple.... what happened there?
> 
> Get back to those agreed upon Boundaries that makes your wife feel loved , #1 and secure, and Heavens, never make excuses why you can't speak about what you were saying to any of your friends. If she gets mad, try to see her side in why she may feel it was crossing an emotional boundary.


Hadn't even thought about an apology!!:scratchhead: No she didn't and no HE didn't.

All I want is open communication!! I don't know why that is so hard, or why he thinks that it controlling to even want it. 

Yes we did have an agreement..but he wants to change his mind?!?!? Why again I don't know. It's funny that I'm sitting in front of him crying and telling him how much it hurts that he is picking another woman over me,and he can only say I'm over sensitive and that he needs his space and freedom?!?!? I just don't get it. Hopefully the MC session can clear some of this up in my mind if I'm something!!


----------



## Conrad

2sick,

I'll be gentle.

He hasn't stopped doing these things because he doesn't want to stop doing them.

You are insisting that he change.

If he hasn't changed by now, he's not going to voluntarily change because he doesn't want to.

Yes, I have learned these lessons the hard way.

Quit expecting/asking him to do the work you need to do.

If something is not ok, tell him. And mean it.

And, by meaning it, there must be consequences.

If there are no consequences, nothing will happen.

And, you'll continue to be hurt.


----------



## Bad News

This is what wikipedia say's about xoxo, really folks calm down.

Hugs and kisses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Hugs and kisses or xoxo is a term used for expressing affection or good friendship at the end of a written letter, email or SMS text message. Some sources discuss the possibility of "x" referring to hugs and "o" referring to kisses.[1][2] However, other sources indicate that "x" is used to signify a kiss and "o" is used to signify a hug."


----------



## 2sick

Bad News said:


> This is what wikipedia say's about xoxo, really folks calm down.
> 
> Hugs and kisses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> "Hugs and kisses or xoxo is a term used for expressing affection or good friendship at the end of a written letter, email or SMS text message. Some sources discuss the possibility of "x" referring to hugs and "o" referring to kisses.[1][2] However, other sources indicate that "x" is used to signify a kiss and "o" is used to signify a hug."


REALLY!! I guess you need to marry wiki so you can be emotionally correct!! OMG So when you xoxo me I'm just a good friend?!?!? WTF you can't be that much of an ignoramice to believe that bs!!!


----------



## Conrad

2sick said:


> REALLY!! I guess you need to marry wiki so you can be emotionally correct!! OMG So when you xoxo me I'm just a good friend?!?!? WTF you can't be that much of an ignoramice to believe that bs!!!


I rest my case.


----------



## that_girl

Oh stop with the wikipedia :rofl:

xoxo is a personal thing that usually lovers share.

The only time I behaved like Bad News, was when I was hiding stuff. Yea, in my dating life, I wasn't the best mate.


----------



## Pandakiss

i read all 7 pages...

no you dont talk about everything....and yes, if you talk to ANYONE that is not in the marriage..it is talked about before and after..every time..it is anylized and picked a part.

this is part of marriage....xoxo..hugs and kisses...no way in hot burning hell will you ever say that to anyone other than ME!!!

WTF..WTF..WTF...if 2sick has a problem with a :certain" "female" "friend"..than that b!tch goes like last weeks news paper. cut and dry.

this isnt about control..its about the folks in the marriage being one against the outside.

and this woman sounds like she is trying to get between the 2 of you...i wish bad news could see that. some chicks, like some men, search out "weak" marriages, or force there way in.

the outside woman is doing all the classic divide and concour. i agree with the statement..."let me tell when WE are avail to meet for lunch"...

WE, that sends the message "BACK THE FU&K OFF"....with out ever saying a word. even if this other woman dosent want in, she is having a good time fu*king up the day/week for the both of you.

not being mean..just calls em like i sees em...


----------



## that_girl

She's not being controlling. She's insecure and scared, which is valid in this situation.

He is holding onto this weird "I will win this" attitude that will ultimately kill his marriage.

That attitude has no place in marriage. You are both responsible for helping your spouse feel secure and loved. You're both failing at it and it's your own fault.

I don't know the answer, but I know an attitude adjustment needs to be made. Stop with the self-righteous bullcrap and see things from each other's side.

Why do you feel this is a competition? Something to "win". This is an argument that isn't worth so much drama, and yet you hold on bceause you don't like her 'telling you what to do'. So...she can't voice her concerns? You want her to feel like she has to hold things in because of how you'll react? Way to kill intimacy.

And 2sick, there isn't any more you can say. You've said what you need to say, so drop it. His actions will show you what he thinks of your feelings. So far, he thinks his feelings, and his friend's feelings, are more important than the marriage. 

2sick, you cannot control anyone but yourself. So, decide how you feel and what you want and then do it. Don't nag him or argue anymore about this. He already knows.

Bad News, I hope you can get your head out of your behind in time to see how this is hurting your wife....the woman you vowed to love, honor and cherish. This is doing none of those things. Why? Just so you can "win"? Silliness.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

OK, even Urban DIctionarys XOXO didn't hint to anything that sexy wild but still you can see the majority of women responses on here that -when it was used, it simply meant "MORE", so in that context, there is a very good chance the Woman friend would see it as ...."MORE" also, I highly doubt she ever looked up the definition... surely you would agree that with every private conversation, every private text, every xoxo and willingness to see her alone is speaking one thing to her.... "YOU ARE INTERESTED". 

Lets me honest here, what vibes is she giving you Bad News?? 

Has she ever even asked YOU if it bothers your wife that you 2 get together alone? 

I am only asking these questions to gauge the type of person SHE is ? so what are her marital issues then? IS her husband upset with her cause she is seeing YOU alone , that when drunk she was grinding on you? 

Fair questions - I hope you will agree.


----------



## Conrad

When the only way you see the world is "winning" and "losing", you have issues.

It's best that he deal with them.

I'm not optimistic.


----------



## meson

Bad News said:


> This is what wikipedia say's about xoxo, really folks calm down.
> 
> Hugs and kisses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> "Hugs and kisses or xoxo is a term used for expressing affection or good friendship at the end of a written letter, email or SMS text message. Some sources discuss the possibility of "x" referring to hugs and "o" referring to kisses.[1][2] However, other sources indicate that "x" is used to signify a kiss and "o" is used to signify a hug."


Bad News,

Your an addict and the drug is dopamine, oxytocin and the other neurochemicals that your "friend" stimulates the release of in your brain. Being around her feels good and you know it. This statement above is pure justification of the addiction. She is more than a friend she is you high.

You can prove to yourself that you are an addict by trying to go no contact with your "friend". You will find that you ache for her, think about her constantly and you probably wont be able to maintain no contact. If she is really only a friend then no contact should be easy. I challange you to go a month with no contact and use the time to reconnect to your wife.

By having an angry public argument over your "friendship" with your wife you are demonstrating that you are placing the marriage in second place. This is not what a marriage is. Your wife and your wifes feelings should come before anyone elses.

I am the biggest advocate of opposite sex friends on TAM. I really understand your point of view. I have female friends going back 30+ years as well. But there was someone I met within the last eight years to whom I became addicted to just like you are. I escalated contact, contrived meetings with her and so on. I was fooling myself for awhile to the extent of my feelings. My wife saw that she was more than a friend and I took her hint and she only hinted. 

Your wife is telling you and you are disrespecting her point of view. Listen to your wife and each of her points and perhaps you can redeem your marriage before your friendship goes to far.

Your wife shounds like she may be a bit like mine. She is MUCH more tolerant of female friends than most on TAM. Don't give her an example which will ruin it for you in the long run.


----------



## Enchantment

The answer to the thread title is that in our marriage it is ... never.

Part of a marital relationship is being able to put your spouse and their needs paramount, i.e. above anything or everyone else ... even above you yourself. Yah - I know that can be hard for people to comprehend, let alone do and it works best when you have two emotionally healthy, stable individuals. But, it is the marker we should be striving for in our marriages.

My H and I have some really simple rules (our boundaries). We have no opposite sex 'friends'. We have couple friends that we do things with, we have some same sex individual personal friends, but we do not have the same level of intimacy with them as we do with each other. There is no personal one-on-one communication, nor personal one-on-one time spent with any opposite sex friend. We both feel it is inappropriate and even if we feel we trust each other, we cannot control what an opposite sex friend may feel and have in their heart. THEY may be untrustworthy, so we band together as a united front and by doing so we shield ourselves and our marriage from any impropriety. We appear as ONE to others, and it is quite natural now to simply demur and state "WE would BOTH be delighted to ..."

@ Bad News - you'll have to ask yourself whether you have the right 'C' word in this situation. Whether 2sick is really trying to be controlling, or whether she is really just *c*aring ... and *c*rying out for you to care about her and your marriage - to make them a priority in your life. I guess it comes down to that old chestnut of "I'd rather be right than happy." that you may be living by. I think you need to be getting to "I'd rather be happy than right." Someone above mentioned 'letting go of the ego" - that should be taken to heart, I think.

Maybe you and 2sick should go out together and read that great thread on "Vulnerability as a Strength" that SimplyAmorous created and then go spend a day reading through the Coping with Infidelity forum to understand how much pain even an emotional affair can cause.

Best wishes.


----------



## TRy

Bad News said:


> This is what wikipedia say's about xoxo, really folks calm down.


@Bad News - Every person that is in an emotional affair (EA) uses the exact same arguments that you are using to justify staying in the affair. You like Wiki so below is the Wiki definition of an EA:

"An "emotional affair" is an affair, which excludes physical intimacy but includes emotional intimacy and can begin as innocently as a friendship. It may also be called an affair of the heart. Where one partner is in a committed monogamous relationship, an emotional affair is a type of chaste nonmonogamy without consummation. When the affair breaches an agreement in the monogamous relationship of one of the partners to the affair, the term infidelity may be more apt."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_affair

Your going to lunch alone with the OW "breaches an agreement" that you had with your wife and thus "the term infidelity may be more apt". Just quoting Wiki dude. 

You are in the beginning of an EA and your wife has a right to not like it. The OW "allowed" comment put you and the OW on the inside as the "us" and your wife on the outside. When she talks about her marraige issues to you she is doing the same with her husband. You are spouting the EA cheaters script that you will find in countless threads. If you value your marraige and your wife, end the so called "friendship" for no other reason than because you love your wife.

One more thing. Ask yourself this question. Is the OW a friend of the marraige?


----------



## GreenEyes

that_girl said:


> It's easy to say you wouldn't get upset about something that would never happen
> 
> I can't imagine 2sick letting some dude grind on her.


:iagree::iagree:.....What I try to tell my H all the time...it's easy to say things like that when you know they'll never happen....


----------



## GreenEyes

Bad News said:


> *If that were truly the case then you're pretty lucky!*
> 
> 
> 
> I love the free psychotherapy! Childhood wasn't crappy nor was it stellar, and I agree that your childhood affects how you act/behave as an adult.
> 
> Anonymous forums are great for expressing quick judgments like "carrying on with this friend of 30 years is bullsh*t". I'll admit that admitting to 2sick that I felt uncomfortable talking freely is an issue that I need to address. And as far as the xoxo goes, that not how I typically end texts with this friend, but can refrain in the future.


Narcissistic Personality Disorder.....Check!


----------



## that_girl

GreenEyes said:


> Narcissistic Personality Disorder.....Check!


HA! I thought the same thing.


----------



## 2sick

Enchantment said:


> The answer to the thread title is that in our marriage it is ... never.
> 
> Part of a marital relationship is being able to put your spouse and their needs paramount, i.e. above anything or everyone else ... even above you yourself. Yah - I know that can be hard for people to comprehend, let alone do and it works best when you have two emotionally healthy, stable individuals. But, it is the marker we should be striving for in our marriages.
> 
> My H and I have some really simple rules (our boundaries). We have no opposite sex 'friends'. We have couple friends that we do things with, we have some same sex individual personal friends, but we do not have the same level of intimacy with them as we do with each other. There is no personal one-on-one communication, nor personal one-on-one time spent with any opposite sex friend. We both feel it is inappropriate and even if we feel we trust each other, we cannot control what an opposite sex friend may feel and have in their heart. THEY may be untrustworthy, so we band together as a united front and by doing so we shield ourselves and our marriage from any impropriety. We appear as ONE to others, and it is quite natural now to simply demur and state "WE would BOTH be delighted to ..."
> 
> @ Bad News - you'll have to ask yourself whether you have the right 'C' word in this situation. Whether 2sick is really trying to be controlling, or whether she is really just *c*aring ... and *c*rying out for you to care about her and your marriage - to make them a priority in your life. I guess it comes down to that old chestnut of "I'd rather be right than happy." that you may be living by. I think you need to be getting to "I'd rather be happy than right." Someone above mentioned 'letting go of the ego" - that should be taken to heart, I think.
> 
> Maybe you and 2sick should go out together and read that great thread on "Vulnerability as a Strength" that SimplyAmorous created and then go spend a day reading through the Coping with Infidelity forum to understand how much pain even an emotional affair can cause.
> 
> Best wishes.


Thanks E!! I read it and LOVED IT...I will admit I gotta girl crush on you and Simply!!! You both have such good advice that I try soo hard to follow!! I truly would love to be at the level that you both are! We just got back from MC and the bottom line is that we both need to properly communicate with each other!! Now on to the other part of the night...going to the friend's house for dinner!!??!?!? Knots are in my stomach because I am trying to control my anger...kids will be there!! YIPEEE. Wish me luck!!!


----------



## 2sick

that_girl said:


> She's not being controlling. She's insecure and scared, which is valid in this situation.
> 
> He is holding onto this weird "I will win this" attitude that will ultimately kill his marriage.
> 
> That attitude has no place in marriage. You are both responsible for helping your spouse feel secure and loved. You're both failing at it and it's your own fault.
> 
> I don't know the answer, but I know an attitude adjustment needs to be made. Stop with the self-righteous bullcrap and see things from each other's side.
> 
> Why do you feel this is a competition? Something to "win". This is an argument that isn't worth so much drama, and yet you hold on bceause you don't like her 'telling you what to do'. So...she can't voice her concerns? You want her to feel like she has to hold things in because of how you'll react? Way to kill intimacy.
> 
> And 2sick, there isn't any more you can say. You've said what you need to say, so drop it. His actions will show you what he thinks of your feelings. So far, he thinks his feelings, and his friend's feelings, are more important than the marriage.
> 
> 2sick, you cannot control anyone but yourself. So, decide how you feel and what you want and then do it. Don't nag him or argue anymore about this. He already knows.
> 
> Bad News, I hope you can get your head out of your behind in time to see how this is hurting your wife....the woman you vowed to love, honor and cherish. This is doing none of those things. Why? Just so you can "win"? Silliness.


I'll be tested tonight!!! won't nag but like hell I won't be keeping and eye on the BEEETCH!!! I hope he steps up and I've told him he really needs to think does he REALLY put me first and if so make your actions show it!! 

Hope to respond tomorrow about our evening...If you hear in the news about a crazy woman going off the deep end....ya know it didn't go too well!:rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Enchantment

2sick said:


> Thanks E!! I read it and LOVED IT...I will admit I gotta girl crush on you and Simply!!! You both have such good advice that I try soo hard to follow!! I truly would love to be at the level that you both are! We just got back from MC and the bottom line is that we both need to properly communicate with each other!! Now on to the other part of the night...going to the friend's house for dinner!!??!?!? Knots are in my stomach because I am trying to control my anger...kids will be there!! YIPEEE. Wish me luck!!!


Well, I hope that you were dressed to kill and absolutely sparkled with effervescence, confidence, and charm. Nothing like shooting a cannonball across the bow, you know.


----------



## surfergirl

Conrad said:


> Surfergirl,
> 
> Child abuse comes in all shapes and sizes. It can be sexual (the worst), verbal, or it can simply be neglect. The message the child starts to receive is that they're vulnerable - and those charged with their protection can't be trusted.
> 
> A child doesn't have the necessary emotional defenses to counter any of this, so they develop coping strategies. This is where many adults with trust issues come from.
> 
> But, it goes deeper than that. The abuse often takes the form of harsh punishment - or at least that is how it's perceived. So, these innocent folks grow to adulthood being terrified of making mistakes - of any kind. In fact, the punishment was often so swift and severe that even contemplating ADMITTING a mistake is so frightening, they're paralyzed with fear.
> 
> What's the logical defense to this? Blameshifting.
> 
> We all blameshift sometimes. But, on TAM you read story after story of people that simply have no conscience. There is no amount of pain they WON'T subject their partner to in an effort to avoid that fear of punishment. And they won't apologize.
> 
> They often "love" their partner. But, they harbor secret anger. Anger at any sort of authority/accountability.
> 
> You see an example of it here.
> 
> People that suffer from this must REALLY want to conquer it.
> 
> Most simply will not do it.


Thank you for that....it certainly makes things a little clearer in my own world (I'd like to speak more about it so I'll start a new post when I get the chance rather than taking it off topic here).

Back on topic.....

Looking forward to how the night went for Bad News and 2sick - all good I hope!


----------



## GreenEyes

that_girl said:


> ha! I thought the same thing.


----------



## GreenEyes

2sick said:


> I'll be tested tonight!!! won't nag but like hell I won't be keeping and eye on the BEEETCH!!! I hope he steps up and I've told him he really needs to think does he REALLY put me first and if so make your actions show it!!
> 
> Hope to respond tomorrow about our evening...*If you hear in the news about a crazy woman going off the deep end....ya know it didn't go too well*


:rofl::rofl: Good Luck to you!!


----------



## Chaparral

A 47 year old man should know how to treat a woman by now.


----------



## BigBadWolf

I consistently warn anyone that will listen this time and time again.

Opposite sex "friends" is a big NO. No such thing.

THis thread is a perfect example of the trainwrecks this kind of nonsense can, and will, lead to.



Bad News, don't give up your female friends because your wife "makes you" or is controlling. Of course that would be wrong, your wife is not your mother, and you are not a child.

Give them up because you are a man, and a man takes care of his business.

And a man's business is his wife and his family.


2Sick, your husband is full blown in the affair fog. Cake eating, blame shifting, secrecy, lame excuses, the works. Don't take these signs lightly, and understand it takes a cold cold COLD bucket of water over the head to wake them up from their stupor.


I wish you well.


----------



## that_girl

yea, that's what I don't understand.

Fighting over someone outside the marriage just ruins the marriage. Why not go into the mode of saving the marriage and doing all that it takes to do so?

These fights over someone outside the marriage is insane. This isn't HS. This isn't dating. This is marriage. It's not about control, it's about protecting the marriage.

By fighting over this, you basically say that this other person is more important than the marriage. 

If you don't water your grass, it dies.


----------



## Conrad

surfergirl said:


> Thank you for that....it certainly makes things a little clearer in my own world (I'd like to speak more about it so I'll start a new post when I get the chance rather than taking it off topic here).
> 
> Back on topic.....
> 
> Looking forward to how the night went for Bad News and 2sick - all good I hope!


Surfergirl,

Please pm me when you do, so I don't miss it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

GreenEyes said:


> Narcissistic Personality Disorder.....Check!



Personality Disorder Test

This test covers the following Personality Disorders : Should give some idea is one it iching in any certain direction and needs some help, if nothing else. 



> 1. Narcissistic- individual has a grandiose view of themselves, a need for admiration, and a lack of empathy that begins by early adulthood and is present in various situations. These individuals are very demanding in their relationships.
> 
> 2. Schizoid- individual generally detached from social relationships, and shows a narrow range of emotional expression in various social settings
> 
> 3. Schizotypal- individual is uncomfortable in close relationships, has thought or perceptual distortions, and peculiarities of behavior.
> 
> 4. Antisocial- individual shows a pervasive disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others
> 
> 5. Borderline- individual shows a generalized pattern of instability in interpersonal relationships, self-image, and observable emotions, and significant impulsiveness
> 
> 6. Histrionic- individual often displays excessive emotionality and attention seeking in various contexts. They tend to overreact to other people, and are often perceived as shallow and self-centered.
> 
> 7. Paranoid- individual generally tends to interpret the actions of others as threatening
> 
> 8. Avoidant- individual is socially inhibited, feels inadequate, and is oversensitive to criticism
> 
> 9. Dependent- individual shows an extreme need to be taken care of that leads to fears of separation, and passive and clinging behavior
> 
> 10. Obsessive-Compulsive -individual is preoccupied with orderliness, perfectionism, and control at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency


----------



## 2sick

that_girl said:


> yea, that's what I don't understand.
> 
> Fighting over someone outside the marriage just ruins the marriage. Why not go into the mode of saving the marriage and doing all that it takes to do so?
> 
> These fights over someone outside the marriage is insane. This isn't HS. This isn't dating. This is marriage. It's not about control, it's about protecting the marriage.
> 
> By fighting over this, you basically say that this other person is more important than the marriage.
> 
> If you don't water your grass, it dies.


You would think that that would be the priority! BUT IT's NOT!!! He seems to go completely out of control when it comes to her. She greeted us at the door hi to me, hi to my daughter, hi to my son and hiiiii to h. Didn't notice it at all...I'm over reacting and controlling!!! He mentioned a conversation to her that we had in the car about how we dated when I was 13 and he was 16, kids that that was grooooosss.  She replied ewe that was disgusting...no defense from him.... Later before dinner we were all teasing each other and the kids ganged up on him about him playing the flute in high school. She came over and stroked his cheek with the back of her hand and said poor baby..."oh that didn't mean anything...you are just so freak'n over sensitive...you won't be happy until I don't have any friends at all will you, you are so controlling..." I freak'n went the beetches house made nice with her for hours...I'm controlling?!?!? MC even has said that she is over stepping boundaries...but he said that H needs to correct the behavior...still waiting.

We just got into a HUGE fight, I admit I jumped up and got into his face yelling at how controlling he is and how he can't keep his word about anything...(he always says "I just changed my mind") He in turn physically pushed me away...I lost it and pushed him back and told him to never put his hands on me like that ever again!! I didn't initially think he was having an EA with this BEETCH but for him to escalate to this type of anger, I guess I was wrong! 

I just don't understand!


----------



## that_girl

She touched his cheek?

Your husband is cheating. He defends her over him.

So...well...you have choices to make.

Tell him to go to her.


----------



## readyforbaby76

Thatgirl, yes I know her and I initially didn't have an issue with her. Until she became touchy feely and one time got drunk and started grinding all over him at her son's bar mitzvah. After that I've been keeping am eye out.


This statement above is what got me. THIS IS NOT OK. you do NOT get drunk and grind all over a "friend". You just dont.

I wish you luck honey but I would have freaked if I saw that.
My DH would never let someone do that. OMG just thinking about it makes me crazy. HOLY CRAP!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

2sick said:


> She came over and stroked his cheek with the back of her hand and said poor baby..."oh that didn't mean anything...you are just so freak'n over sensitive...you won't be happy until I don't have any friends at all will you, you are so controlling..." I freak'n went the beetches house made nice with her for hours...I'm controlling?!?!? MC even has said that she is over stepping boundaries...but he said that H needs to correct the behavior...still waiting.
> 
> We just got into a HUGE fight, I admit I jumped up and got into his face yelling at how controlling he is and how he can't keep his word about anything...(he always says "I just changed my mind") He in turn physically pushed me away...I lost it and pushed him back and told him to never put his hands on me like that ever again!! I didn't initially think he was having an EA with this BEETCH but for him to escalate to this type of anger, I guess I was wrong!


I agree, you have been FAR TOO LENIENT !! ....It is very very very demeaning to have to tell your husband over & over & over & over again how these things hurt you.... she is damn lucky you didn't get up and slap her face when she stroked his cheek, but what is the point, HE is the one who needs to CARE and give his love AND RESPECT back to you, and let this woman know she is pushing , her actions completely inappropriate and it needed to stop MONTHS AGO. 

Even if you won the war with the women, what good will it do if his heart is with her. 

Bad News -- you need to make a choice here. It seems you are willing to loose your wife over this so-called friend ? 

Speaks volumes. 

Sometimes wives DO overreact in these types of things where nothing is happening, but this is surely NOT one of those cases, you are addicted to that woman & the attention she feeds.

Goes back to Meson's post here.... 



> Your an addict and the drug is dopamine, oxytocin and the other neurochemicals that your "friend" stimulates the release of in your brain. Being around her feels good and you know it. This statement above is pure justification of the addiction. She is more than a friend she is you high.
> 
> You can prove to yourself that you are an addict by trying to go no contact with your "friend". You will find that you ache for her, think about her constantly and you probably wont be able to maintain no contact. If she is really only a friend then no contact should be easy. I challange you to go a month with no contact and use the time to reconnect to your wife.
> 
> By having an angry public argument over your "friendship" with your wife you are demonstrating that you are placing the marriage in second place. This is not what a marriage is. Your wife and your wifes feelings should come before anyone elses.


2Sick is not insecure at all, she just isn't a fool, she is angrily crying out to you- as any wife would. I think she is coming to end of her tolerance with this one. 




> Emotional Affair Signs Checklist http://www.emotionalaffairsite.com/emotional-affair-signs/emotional-affair-signs-checklist
> 
> The ‘cheater’ keeps their ‘friendship’ secret from their partner.
> 
> They therefore don’t share or talk about calls, texts, etc. that they receive from their friend, with their partners.
> 
> They do all they can to hide those calls and text messages.
> 
> When confronted by a partner, they deny any wrongdoing and may accuse their partner of being silly, of looking for something that doesn’t exist.
> 
> They can even become aggressive when being quizzed about their friendship.
> 
> Their responses are often centered around things like “he’s/she’s just a friend,” “he’s/she’s a good listener,” “it’s only about work,” etc.
> 
> The cheater looks to spend more and more time out of the house with their friend.
> 
> The cheater actually looks forward to spending time with their friend rather than with their spouse or partner.
> 
> They tell their friend things that they don’t even share with their spouse / partner.
> 
> Cheaters spend less time having meaningful conversations with their spouse.
> 
> They are less interested in sex with their spouse or partner.
> 
> They can sometimes behave in ways with their friend that they would never have done with their spouse or partner.
> 
> They conjure up reasons to give their friends gifts.
> 
> Cheaters can suddenly become more critical of their spouse or partner, e.g., the way they dress, the way they look, etc.


----------



## Bad News

that_girl said:


> She touched his cheek?
> 
> Your husband is cheating. He defends her over him.
> 
> So...well...you have choices to make.
> 
> Tell him to go to her.


How do you arrive at cheating? So the 2sick's description of the events are completely factual and beyond reproach and mine are clouded by some fog?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Bad News said:


> How do you arrive at cheating? So the 2sick's description of the events are completely factual and beyond reproach and mine are clouded by some fog?


She likely only meant in the "emotional" sense, not in the "physical". I doubt anyone here is jumping there. Some people don't see an emotional affair as bad as a Physical affair, beings they would only divorce if it got Physical...... some see them both on the same plane, just as bad, just as damaging.

Ok.... give us your take, she she stroke your cheek ? 

Are you willing to let this woman go in your life , banish her and show your wife how very much you care for her feelings in this??


----------



## Conrad

Simply Amorous,

Sadly, Bad News actually knows what he's doing.

If you read 2sick's responses, he can tell she isn't going to draw or enforce any boundaries on his behavior.

So, his stance is, "Live with It"


----------



## 2sick

SimplyAmorous said:


> She likely only meant in the "emotional" sense, not in the "physical". I doubt anyone here is jumping there. Some people don't see an emotional affair as bad as a Physical affair, beings they would only divorce if it got Physical...... some see them both on the same plane, just as bad, just as damaging.
> 
> Ok.... give us your take, she she stroke your cheek ?
> 
> Are you willing to let this woman go in your life , banish her and show your wife how very much you care for her feelings in this??


You see isn't responding to your question...He didn't truly respond when I brought it up!?!? He just gets angry. I'm not sure what is going on with him really. He has changed from the man I married. He is abrasive, sarcastic, insensitive .... everything he was not. I'm not the same person either because of it...I'm full of hatred and anger. I can't believe the person he has turned into. God I truly want that man back!!!! I miss him soo much. It looked like at one time he was back but nope!!


----------



## COguy

2sick said:


> You see isn't responding to your question...He didn't truly respond when I brought it up!?!? He just gets angry. I'm not sure what is going on with him really. He has changed from the man I married. He is abrasive, sarcastic, insensitive .... everything he was not. I'm not the same person either because of it...I'm full of hatred and anger. I can't believe the person he has turned into. God I truly want that man back!!!! I miss him soo much. It looked like at one time he was back but nope!!


My suggestion is to quit having an internet battle with your husband and get serious. Make the sh*t hit the fan. You weaken your self-respect every minute that you do nothing about his selfishness and boundary-crossing.

Stop looking for validation, you've already received 9 pages of it.


----------



## that_girl

I agree with the above.

He gets angry because he knows he's doing smeting wrong.
If the friendship was nothing, he'd let it go.

Sorry, but you need to get serious here.


----------



## that_girl

Bad News said:


> How do you arrive at cheating? So the 2sick's description of the events are completely factual and beyond reproach and mine are clouded by some fog?


Did you move your face away when she reached out? You continually allow this woman to touch you in front of your wife. Was 2sick not telling the truth? Did you do anything to make your wife feel secure around your friend about your marriage?

Doesn't sound like it.


----------



## 2sick

COguy said:


> My suggestion is to quit having an internet battle with your husband and get serious. Make the sh*t hit the fan. You weaken your self-respect every minute that you do nothing about his selfishness and boundary-crossing.
> 
> Stop looking for validation, you've already received 9 pages of it.


No internet battle...I am battling face to face with him and just venting here...to people who listen. Not really seeking validation.. because even if every single one of you thought I was a mentally ill paranoid psycho, I would feel the same way I do now. As I tell him the only opinions that truly count are his and mine. So what if people agree if he and I can't agree or even the opposite . It's good to get additional feedback and advice from outsiders and that's why I post on the site. But I do understand your frustration. I'm frustrated myself and have told him if he can't feel comfortable around me or needs more space and freedom than I'm willing to give...just leave. I still love h and I think he still loves me and I truly want to fight for us till the bitter end...I'm just hoping it will remain till death do us part.


----------



## Bad News

that_girl said:


> Did you move your face away when she reached out? You continually allow this woman to touch you in front of your wife. Was 2sick not telling the truth? Did you do anything to make your wife feel secure around your friend about your marriage?


We, including her husband were all milling about the kitchen when "stoke" took place. It lasted a split second, but it did happen. IMO it was not in any way sensual or intended to be provocative, but in light of the bar mitzvah dance grinding, everything my friend does is scrutinized and I get that. During the evening 2sick and I kissed openly several times and I caressed her loving as well.

Clearly, the sh*t is going to hit the fan, as someone just said, wrt to either modifying the friendship or just ending it, but that won't solve our central marital problem which is a lack of trust.


----------



## Confused_and_bitter

Doesn't this friendship just scream EA to everyone?

Bad News - the fact that you were affectionate with 2sick in front of this friend really doesn't mean shet. H introduced me to his OW hugged me kissed me all while in front of her and then later that week they went out on a date. IMO when two people of the opposite sex go out together behind the SO's back, it's a date.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mephisto

2sick said:


> No we don't talk about everything...just found out this morning that she asked you out to lunch again several months ago and that you had a conversation with your other female friend about this female friend's situation!!! All of this just came out...again THAT is my problem we don't communicate and I only get full disclosure after I have had enough and have blown up!!
> 
> I'm not upset about you having friends, never have been, never will. I have never said everything has to be pre-approved about the communications...I have said BOUNDARIES MUST BE SET!!! and I still feel that way. Marital issues need to stay just that!! I'm not sure why trying to communicate is a problem. I ask friends about other friends, so I don't see the problem of wanting to know about h's friends, and how and what they are doing. I just don't get it.


Seriously 2sick? You want a verbatim account of each and every conversation your husband has every day or you will get pissed at him? SERIOUSLY????? That is way OTT. 

Not saying you don't have valid points in your argument, because he is clearly stepping over some lines in his dealing with his friend.

But just from this observation alone I can see why he is reluctant to "be controlled" The constant eavesdropping and snooping would certainly drive me round the twist. There are some times it is better to just trust your partner.


----------



## 2sick

Bad News said:


> We, including her husband were all milling about the kitchen when "stoke" took place. It lasted a split second, but it did happen. IMO it was not in any way sensual or intended to be provocative, but in light of the bar mitzvah dance grinding, everything my friend does is scrutinized and I get that. During the evening 2sick and I kissed openly several times and I caressed her loving as well.
> 
> Clearly, the sh*t is going to hit the fan, as someone just said, wrt to either modifying the friendship or just ending it, but that won't solve our central marital problem which is a lack of trust.


Actually her Husband was washing out a dish...with his back turned away from us...Me on the other hand was standing right next to him. But that's neither here nor there.. You see doesn't think anything she does is in appropriate ...I stroked his face last night the same way and he thought it sensual...got a double take until I said "exactly".

H is also correct central marital problem is lack of trust...but as you can see just by this situation it's sort of hard to trust. I keep asking him what promise has he not broken to me. In a previous mc session with another counselor, she had US agree to using Facebook only with the both of us together....we have two computers in the same room... and we had been doing that for about a couple of weeks, it was fun and relaxing..BUT then he decided to "change his mind and use facebook at the office and then get upset if I questioned it...Lack of trust started again. Current MC said not good to go outside the marriage to talk about marital issues...agreed upon by both...you already know the outcome of that one!! Lack of trust continued. Joined TAM, MC didn't think good idea but if we were to continue then no PMing...again agreed upon...and again "changed his mine". Agreed to keep mustache in response to me making physical changes he wanted (he some how even COMPLETELY forgot about that agreement all toge)...He's stacheless now?!?!? I completely agree with him, I don't trust him! He has not yet given me reason to begin trusting him again...Well I take that back..I start trusting him..then trust is broken. If he could actually keep his word and truly communicate with me I feel most of our issues would disappear. 

He gets upset because I make presumptions on the facts that I have...I tell him then just communicate with me and there will be NO misunderstanding about what he is doing/saying. 

I suppose I may need to start a different post on that subject!?!?!?


----------



## Bad News

SimplyAmorous said:


> Some people don't see an emotional affair as bad as a Physical affair, beings they would only divorce if it got Physical


I agree, an emotional affair is equally bad and I'm not in one! But apparently, many tamers apply the following test:

1) reluctant to dissolve opposite sex friendship - must be EA, spouse is cheating.
2) end friendship - probably was an EA, even if its not play it safe. 

I know I'll be criticized for sarcasm, but 2sick hasn't asked me to banish her (although she wouldn't put a fight right about now), its the notion that somehow this friend comes before her which I don't agree (that's not to say that I don't bear some responsibility). I do see that its causing 2sick pain, which is one reason why we went back to the MC after a year break.


----------



## Bad News

Confused_and_bitter said:


> IMO when two people of the opposite sex go out together behind the SO's back, it's a date.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Uh, this hasn't happened, We've had lunch during the day but 2sick had prior knowledge each and every time. I think several days notice each time.


----------



## 2sick

Mephisto said:


> Seriously 2sick? You want a verbatim account of each and every conversation your husband has every day or you will get pissed at him? SERIOUSLY????? That is way OTT.
> 
> Not saying you don't have valid points in your argument, because he is clearly stepping over some lines in his dealing with his friend.
> 
> But just from this observation alone I can see why he is reluctant to "be controlled" The constant eavesdropping and snooping would certainly drive me round the twist. There are some times it is better to just trust your partner.


I don't think that you actually read this post. I said I DON'T MIND him talking to friends. I don't want a verbatim account. I'm not sure were you got the eavesdropping...and I am not trying to control. So not sure where you are getting that impression. In fact, the conversations with his female friends always takes place at work or on his cell phone when he's alone in the car. This is the first time she has called the house with out trying to set up plans for the families.:scratchhead:


----------



## 2sick

Bad News said:


> Uh, this hasn't happened, We've had lunch during the day but 2sick had prior knowledge each and every time. I think several days notice each time.


Never invited! And not happy since he wasn't having lunch dates with me...I'm a SAHM so usually available anytime??!?!? I will say to his credit after I complained about that he did start having dates with me.


----------



## Enchantment

Bad News said:


> our central marital problem which is a lack of trust.


In order to engender trust in another, we must ourselves be trustworthy, and most importantly, we must be transparent. It is the transparency that makes us trustworthy.

Is there a reason why you can't be or don't want to be more transparent with 2sick?


@2sick ~

Trust is a leap of faith, for sure. I can understand your desire for more transparency from Bad News. Most all of us have that desire for transparency from our spouses. But too much clinging and prodding pushes another away.

There's a great quote about evoking trustworthiness by Henry Stimson - "_The only way to make a man trustworthy is to trust him."_

If you make a leap of faith in trust, or continually make leaps of faith, and Bad News isn't there to catch you, then you know just where you stand.


It will take BOTH of you changing - Bad News becoming more transparent, and 2sick taking that leap of faith - before things can get better. I'm assuming that you are working with your MC on ways that you can rebuild trust in your relationship.

Rebuilding Trust in a Romantic Relationship - Truth About Deception

Wishing you two all the best.


----------



## Chaparral

The thing is, Bad News is faced with a no brainer and he can't make the call. As a result he's looking at bad news in his near future.


----------



## COguy

Bad News said:


> I agree, an emotional affair is equally bad and I'm not in one! But apparently, many tamers apply the following test:
> 
> 1) reluctant to dissolve opposite sex friendship - must be EA, spouse is cheating.
> 2) end friendship - probably was an EA, even if its not play it safe.


Yes, that's exactly correct. You can't end a friendship that makes your wife uncomfortable, you are now cheating. You're putting someone else in front of your wife's needs.


----------



## that_girl

But if it's only about this woman, than the issue isn't really trust. The issue is this woman.

She doesn't need MC. She needs a husband who does things to help her feel secure. I don't see that happening.

Allowing another woman to touch your face is inappropriate. It's an intimate action. I have male friends and the most they get from me is an elbow ribbing.


----------



## GreenEyes

COguy said:


> Yes, that's exactly correct. You can't end a friendship that makes your wife uncomfortable, you are now cheating. You're putting someone else in front of your wife's needs.


:iagree: I don't understand why it's so hard for people to pick between their friends (opposite sex friends) and their spouse, what is there to even think about???
@Bad News, why don't you give your wife half the support and understanding right now that you give your friend when she's upset? Why is it that you guys only save your understanding and compassion for other people...I have been in your wife's shoes before, and in the beginning with the first few people, I'm sure my H wasn't having an affair, PA or EA, but the fact that I am at home ripping my hair out trying to get him to understand what I am feeling and how hurt I am by what he's doing and he just ignores me or gets mad at me, but then when one of his "friends" calls or texts with their problems it's all awwww......Even better was H talking about our marital problems with these women, and then saying if it wasn't for them, he probably would have left me, they helped him see my side..LOL All of the opposite sex friends stuff is so bogus.....I don't even know how anyone thinks that's ok (except in certain situations where they are mutual friends and both H and W are 100% cool with it)


----------



## WhereAmI

My H had a friend just like the "friend" in your case. He had no feelings for her, so despite her inappropriate behavior (which turned onto his- first for simply allowing hers- then for lessening his boundaries). It nearly tore our marriage apart. When he FINALLY removed her from our lives she acted out and he was then able to see all of her behaviors for what they were, a cry for his attention.

Oh, and she was newly engaged. The fact that this woman has a husband doesn't protect your marriage AT ALL. Hopefully your H will be willing to give up this ONE inappropriate friend. You're by no means being controlling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2sick

Enchantment said:


> In order to engender trust in another, we must ourselves be trustworthy, and most importantly, we must be transparent. It is the transparency that makes us trustworthy.
> 
> Is there a reason why you can't be or don't want to be more transparent with 2sick?
> 
> 
> @2sick ~
> 
> Trust is a leap of faith, for sure. I can understand your desire for more transparency from Bad News. Most all of us have that desire for transparency from our spouses. But too much clinging and prodding pushes another away.
> 
> There's a great quote about evoking trustworthiness by Henry Stimson - "_The only way to make a man trustworthy is to trust him."_
> 
> If you make a leap of faith in trust, or continually make leaps of faith, and Bad News isn't there to catch you, then you know just where you stand.
> 
> 
> It will take BOTH of you changing - Bad News becoming more transparent, and 2sick taking that leap of faith - before things can get better. I'm assuming that you are working with your MC on ways that you can rebuild trust in your relationship.
> 
> Rebuilding Trust in a Romantic Relationship - Truth About Deception
> 
> Wishing you two all the best.


----------



## Conrad

Enchantment,

"Logic" doesn't work on emotionally broken people.

Bad News sees this situation as "losing" if he gives up his friend.

He doesn't want to lose.


----------



## Enchantment

Conrad said:


> Enchantment,
> 
> "Logic" doesn't work on emotionally broken people.
> 
> Bad News sees this situation as "losing" if he gives up his friend.
> 
> He doesn't want to lose.


If he doesn't give up this friend, he will lose a lot more - his wife's trust and love, his wife, his homelife, etc.

Problem is, he may not figure that out until it's too late. And that is definitely bad news. How appropriate his user name is.


----------



## 2sick

oops message got deleted.

I was saying that enchantment, your post just reinforced my girl crush!! You are completely correct for this or any marriage to work BOTH parties have to put in 100%. And you are also correct that I need to learn to give a leap of faith. Our problem is like the chicken and the egg...do I trust even questionable behavior so that he will try to be more trustworthy... or should I wait until he tries to be more trustworthy?


----------



## Conrad

Enchantment said:


> If he doesn't give up this friend, he will lose a lot more - his wife's trust and love, his wife, his homelife, etc.
> 
> Problem is, he may not figure that out until it's too late. And that is definitely bad news. How appropriate his user name is.


Enchantment,

I wish 2Sick could see what she is doing to herself.

She won't answer basic questions about whether Bad News will ever apologize and she's protecting him in other areas.

There's a part of this she is bringing on herself by whining about no boundaries and refusing to establish them herself.


----------



## COguy

GreenEyes said:


> :iagree: I don't understand why it's so hard for people to pick between their friends (opposite sex friends) and their spouse, what is there to even think about???
> @Bad News, why don't you give your wife half the support and understanding right now that you give your friend when she's upset? Why is it that you guys only save your understanding and compassion for other people...I have been in your wife's shoes before, and in the beginning with the first few people, I'm sure my H wasn't having an affair, PA or EA, but the fact that I am at home ripping my hair out trying to get him to understand what I am feeling and how hurt I am by what he's doing and he just ignores me or gets mad at me, but then when one of his "friends" calls or texts with their problems it's all awwww......Even better was H talking about our marital problems with these women, and then saying if it wasn't for them, he probably would have left me, they helped him see my side..LOL All of the opposite sex friends stuff is so bogus.....I don't even know how anyone thinks that's ok (except in certain situations where they are mutual friends and both H and W are 100% cool with it)


I had a friend like that, it never got inappropriate (sexual), and was instrumental in me not putting my foot down when wife started chatting up an old friend. I felt guilty about telling her she couldn't while I never agreed to stop chatting with my friend when it bothered her.

It wasn't until I stopped out of respect to my wife (I finally realized why it bothered her), that I realized that even though it never got sexually inappropriate, we were clearly playing with fire. I shared things with her I didn't share with my wife. I told her about our marriage problems I never brought up to my wife. I looked forward to talking to her instead of my wife...

It's hard to be honest with yourself when you're enjoying something and don't have bad intentions. But I slap myself every day for basically crapping on my wife's feelings when she initially brought it up. Really the only thing that would have gotten to me is if she would have left, I think that would have shocked me into reality....


----------



## TRy

Bad News said:


> I agree, an emotional affair is equally bad and I'm not in one! But apparently, many tamers apply the following test:
> 
> 1) reluctant to dissolve opposite sex friendship - must be EA, spouse is cheating.
> 2) end friendship - probably was an EA, even if its not play it safe.


@Bad News – Your 2 points leave out very relevant facts such as:

1) You and the OW are having conversations about marriage issues. These conversations are such that you speak cautiously when your wife is around so that your wife will not understand what you are saying. You and the OW are on the inside and your wife is on the outside.

2) The OW got drunk and grinded on you while dancing.

3) The OW touched your face to flirt with you. If a guy friend would not have done it then it was flirting and thus inappropriate. The OW knew that your wife was having issues with your relationship with the OW, so doing this was meant to taunt your wife. 

4) The OW and you want to have lunch alone together even though you agreed with your wife not to do so. The OW knows that your wife does not approve yet still asks. Her “permission” remark was dismissive of your wife and you let the OW get away with it.

Many couples do not allow opposite sex friends at all. Those that do allow it often have special rules that acknowledge that there is a difference between same sex and opposite sex friends. Most EA happen where no such rules exist. Do you have such agreed upon rules? If not you should adopt some. One of the most basic rules that apply to all friends but especially to opposite sex friends is that the friend must be a friend of the marriage. The OW is not a friend of the marriage.



Bad News said:


> its the notion that somehow this friend comes before her which I don't agree (that's not to say that I don't bear some responsibility). I do see that its causing 2sick pain, which is one reason why we went back to the MC after a year break.


 It cause your wife pain and your answer is MC? You are putting your friendship over your wife’s feelings right there. Take away the grinding incident, the flirting and the inappropriate conversations about marriage issues and your wife would probably not be bothered by this friendship. But they happened and you cannot go back. It does not matter if you are really in an EA or not. If there is reason for a person to be suspicious of the friendship (and there are such reasons), you owe it to your wife to end the relationship; otherwise you are choosing the relationship over the feelings of your spouse.


----------



## 2sick

Conrad said:


> Enchantment,
> 
> I wish 2Sick could see what she is doing to herself.
> 
> She won't answer basic questions about whether Bad News will ever apologize and she's protecting him in other areas.
> 
> There's a part of this she is bringing on herself by whining about now boundaries and refusing to establish them herself.


I'm sorry, I didn't see any questions that may have asked. Is the question did he apologize for her behavior or his? He doesn't apologize for her behavior. He did about his only talking to them at the office. ( if it's neither please raise the question again so I can properly answer it) 

And I did establish boundaries....that's the problem...they have been trampled on.
I am not yet willing to throw away my marriage. There is over 17 years of love between us. I have known this man since I was 13 and dated him on and off until we got married. I'm Sorry if I sound whiny but I am frustrated. I know this is quite bizarre because we are now side by side interacting about these posts but wanting to have the input from the posters (quasi counseling for us...quasi entertainment for yall)


----------



## 2sick

COguy said:


> I had a friend like that, it never got inappropriate (sexual), and was instrumental in me not putting my foot down when wife started chatting up an old friend. I felt guilty about telling her she couldn't while I never agreed to stop chatting with my friend when it bothered her.
> 
> It wasn't until I stopped out of respect to my wife (I finally realized why it bothered her), that I realized that even though it never got sexually inappropriate, we were clearly playing with fire. I shared things with her I didn't share with my wife. I told her about our marriage problems I never brought up to my wife. I looked forward to talking to her instead of my wife...
> 
> It's hard to be honest with yourself when you're enjoying something and don't have bad intentions. But I slap myself every day for basically crapping on my wife's feelings when she initially brought it up. Really the only thing that would have gotten to me is if she would have left, I think that would have shocked me into reality....


What made you see that you behavior was wrong? H doesn't see it yet. He still sees it as me trying to control him.


----------



## Conrad

I've asked you about his childhood.

I've asked you if he apologizes - in general. Does he apologize for anything - or is there some 'reason' for his behavior that exculpates him on every occasion?

You are misunderstanding something fundamental about boundaries. You are insisting that HE establish them when the ones that are missing are YOURS.

He has taken your measure. He believes you will whine but won't take any consequential action. Therefore, he believes he can keep his "friend" and you BOTH. This is cake eating.

He is doing it because you let him do it.

In other words, you are bringing it on yourself.





2sick said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't see any questions that may have asked. Is the question did he apologize for her behavior or his? He doesn't apologize for her behavior. He did about his only talking to them at the office. ( if it's neither please raise the question again so I can properly answer it)
> 
> And I did establish boundaries....that's the problem...they have been trampled on.
> I am not yet willing to throw away my marriage. There is over 17 years of love between us. I have known this man since I was 13 and dated him on and off until we got married. I'm Sorry if I sound whiny but I am frustrated. I know this is quite bizarre because we are now side by side interacting about these posts but wanting to have the input from the posters (quasi counseling for us...quasi entertainment for yall)


----------



## Bad News

Conrad said:


> I've asked you about his childhood.
> 
> I've asked you if he apologizes - in general. Does he apologize for anything - or is there some 'reason' for his behavior that exculpates him on every occasion?
> 
> You are misunderstanding something fundamental about boundaries. You are insisting that HE establish them when the ones that are missing are YOURS.
> 
> He has taken your measure. He believes you will whine but won't take any consequential action. Therefore, he believes he can keep his "friend" and you BOTH. This is cake eating.
> 
> He is doing it because you let him do it.
> 
> In other words, you are bringing it on yourself.


Cake eating? 2sick asked that I stop having solo lunches and I did. 2sick asked that I only email her on email accounts that she has access to, and I did. I do tell her I don't like the boundaries but have been abiding by them.

Why do you label me emotionally broken, do we know each other?


----------



## Bad News

that_girl said:


> But if it's only about this woman, than the issue isn't really trust. The issue is this woman.
> 
> She doesn't need MC. She needs a husband who does things to help her feel secure. I don't see that happening.
> 
> Allowing another woman to touch your face is inappropriate. It's an intimate action. I have male friends and the most they get from me is an elbow ribbing.


So there's no hugging upon greeting or departure with these male friends?


----------



## 2sick

Conrad said:


> I've asked you about his childhood.
> 
> I've asked you if he apologizes - in general. Does he apologize for anything - or is there some 'reason' for his behavior that exculpates him on every occasion?
> 
> You are misunderstanding something fundamental about boundaries. You are insisting that HE establish them when the ones that are missing are YOURS.
> 
> He has taken your measure. He believes you will whine but won't take any consequential action. Therefore, he believes he can keep his "friend" and you BOTH. This is cake eating.
> 
> He is doing it because you let him do it.
> 
> In other words, you are bringing it on yourself.


Oh, well I thought I said in regards to his childhood that was his to answer. But in regards to him apologizing , yes he does...we BOTH do. Once things settle we sit back down and acknowledge where we THINK we were wrong. But obviously when we think that we aren't wrong there's no apology.

I will say that these posts have opened up a better dialog about clearer boundaries. He has realized that only communicating with his friends at his office was wrong, and has said he will try and have more communications openly and at home as well. We do still need to work on h telling his friend that she needs stop crossing the line.


----------



## COguy

2sick said:


> What made you see that you behavior was wrong? H doesn't see it yet. He still sees it as me trying to control him.


My wife started texting/chatting with an old "friend". She did the same thing I did, she started sharing marital problems. She enjoyed talking to him more than me, she shared things with him she wouldn't tell me, etc. Only difference was they started sexting each other.

Before I knew my wife had an EA with the guy I already began to see why it hurt her when I talked to my friend. She wanted me to be the person I talked to, enjoyed talking to, shared things with. I just didn't get it until the tables were turned.

However, I definitely don't think that's how anyone should play it. Jealousy begetting jealousy is not a recipe for marital success. I think you need to establish clear boundaries, and if he violates them, enforce the consequences. Like I said, the only thing I can think of that would have shocked me into reality was her leaving. At that point I would have had to confront that I was choosing someone over my decision to stay with her. Also, my friend would have stopped talking to me (because she was a really good friend) if she knew it would have ended it.

In my case, walking out was the only thing that stopped my wife from going further with her EA. She was planning to fly out and have a weekend sex fest with the guy until I walked out, then she realized that what she was doing was threatening her entire life. However, up to the point of me walking out, I had no idea how far it had gone. She was still telling me they were "just friends."

Your husband and this woman have a connection, he's either lying to you about it or he's not being honest with himself. Don't let him set the boundary, you need to set it, and stick to the consequences. I don't want to say he's an A**hole, because like I said, I did the same thing and I definitely loved my wife, but he needs a nice kick in the brain for sure. And I can tell you that this forum is filled with stories like yours where the woman stayed and tolerated it and it ended poorly.

This will not get better on it's own. It will only get worse. Deal with it now.


----------



## GreenEyes

COguy said:


> I had a friend like that, it never got inappropriate (sexual), and was instrumental in me not putting my foot down when wife started chatting up an old friend. I felt guilty about telling her she couldn't while I never agreed to stop chatting with my friend when it bothered her.
> 
> It wasn't until I stopped out of respect to my wife (I finally realized why it bothered her), that I realized that even though it never got sexually inappropriate, we were clearly playing with fire. I shared things with her I didn't share with my wife. I told her about our marriage problems I never brought up to my wife. I looked forward to talking to her instead of my wife...
> 
> It's hard to be honest with yourself when you're enjoying something and don't have bad intentions. But I slap myself every day for basically crapping on my wife's feelings when she initially brought it up. Really the only thing that would have gotten to me is if she would have left, I think that would have shocked me into reality....


But it's awesome that you realized how what you were doing hurt your wife...I like your term "crapping on your wife's feelings" because that is exactly what is happening, and it hurts!! It makes you feel horrible when you know your husband prefers talking to another woman over talking to you....


----------



## that_girl

Bad News said:


> So there's no hugging upon greeting or departure with these male friends?


Nope. Why would I? I'm not a huggy person anyway. Only special people get hugged...and none of them are male cept family and my hubs 

Hubs' friends are huggy. It's awkward. I try to do the side hug thing...or stand away from them and just bend in to hug with a pat on the back. :lol: I hate that. But Hubs is right there anyway.

I don't hang out with my male friends alone. There's never a need to. I may go out with one of them with his gf, but that's maybe once a year as he lives in NY now with her. 

But a brush on their cheek? Grinding? LOLLL No way.


----------



## that_girl

I bet, also, that if he breaks it off with his friend, she'll have a ton of horrible things to say about his marriage and wife.

lol. 

I wonder what her husband thinks of her behavior and attention on Bad News.


----------



## Conrad

I'm sorry 2Sick.

I should have been more specific.

If he only apologizes when he THINKS he's done something wrong, that means he's judgeing your feelings.

If he apologizes for hurting you? Then you have a committed partner.

From this thread, I don't think that you do.

Your mileage may vary.




2sick said:


> Oh, well I thought I said in regards to his childhood that was his to answer. But in regards to him apologizing , yes he does...we BOTH do. Once things settle we sit back down and acknowledge where we THINK we were wrong. But obviously when we think that we aren't wrong there's no apology.
> 
> I will say that these posts have opened up a better dialog about clearer boundaries. He has realized that only communicating with his friends at his office was wrong, and has said he will try and have more communications openly and at home as well. We do still need to work on h telling his friend that she needs stop crossing the line.


----------



## Conrad

that_girl said:


> I bet, also, that if he breaks it off with his friend, she'll have a ton of horrible things to say about his marriage and wife.
> 
> lol.
> 
> I wonder what her husband thinks of her behavior and attention on Bad News.


Sounds like you're familiar with the type.


----------



## that_girl

Conrad said:


> Sounds like you're familiar with the type.


Wish I wasn't.


----------



## that_girl

I also wonder why he only contacted from the office.

Bad News, were you scared of being in trouble? What was it that made you only contact when not at home?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Bad News said:


> So there's no hugging upon greeting or departure with these male friends?


Not if they had been grinding on your wife there would not be. I am really surprised this is a problem for you.

At the end of the day, the question is whether you want to be right or be married. Your wife's feelings need to matter to you a whole hell of a lot, and certainly more than anyone elses. If you are honest, there are a lot of good reasons why she is uncomfortable. Just because you think you are right does not mean she is wrong.

In our neighborhood, one wife has a friend who attends get togethers occasionally. She has been friendly, but in my opinion, no more friendly with me than with others. My wife is not fond of her, and I learned that at one point my wife told this woman to stay away from me. I have looked back and honestly don't think this woman has done anything inappropriate (though I admit I am pretty clueless with a lot of that stuff). I suppose I could continue as is, comforted by the fact that I am right and have done nothing wrong. But since I know it bothers my wife, I avoid her. I am polite, and will converse while in a group if my wife is there, but otherwise I will avoid her. There is no upside in it - *at best* I make a casual friend at the expense of closeness with my wife. Why in the world would I ever make that trade?!?

But perhaps being right is more important to some people ...


----------



## that_girl

Women get a vibe about certain people. Just because most men don't understand that 'vibe reading' doesn't mean it isn't true.


----------



## GreenEyes

Tall Average Guy said:


> Not if they had been grinding on your wife there would not be. I am really surprised this is a problem for you.
> 
> At the end of the day, the question is whether you want to be right or be married. Your wife's feelings need to matter to you a whole hell of a lot, and certainly more than anyone elses. If you are honest, there are a lot of good reasons why she is uncomfortable. Just because you think you are right does not mean she is wrong.
> 
> In our neighborhood, one wife has a friend who attends get togethers occasionally. She has been friendly, but in my opinion, no more friendly with me than with others. My wife is not fond of her, and I learned that at one point my wife told this woman to stay away from me. I have looked back and honestly don't think this woman has done anything inappropriate (though I admit I am pretty clueless with a lot of that stuff). I suppose I could continue as is, comforted by the fact that I am right and have done nothing wrong. But since I know it bothers my wife, I avoid her. I am polite, and will converse while in a group if my wife is there, but otherwise I will avoid her. There is no upside in it - *at best* I make a casual friend at the expense of closeness with my wife. Why in the world would I ever make that trade?!?
> 
> But perhaps being right is more important to some people ...


Too bad more men can't be like you....a lot of people have to justify their actions by saying their spouse is crazy or overreacting, instead of just owning up that their actions might be hurting their spouse and they should stop, even if they don't want to....Good for you for being an actual man!


----------



## GreenEyes

that_girl said:


> Women get a vibe about certain people. Just because most men don't understand that 'vibe reading' doesn't mean it isn't true.


:iagree: So true


----------



## COguy

GreenEyes said:


> Too bad more men can't be like you....a lot of people have to justify their actions by saying their spouse is crazy or overreacting, instead of just owning up that their actions might be hurting their spouse and they should stop, even if they don't want to....Good for you for being an actual man!


Yeah you nailed me to a T. I was convinced it was my wife's problems. She was just being crazy, I certainly wasn't doing anything wrong!! If she wanted to make a big deal let her, I'm not going to give in to her craziness!

God how stupid was that?? I set the tone for our marriage that my wife's feelings didn't matter. I wish I could take back that experience and just tell her flat out, "I don't think it's a big deal we talk, but I know it bothers you so I won't do it any more and won't regret it at all!"

If I had been in that state of mind when we first got married, there is no way in hell shecould have gotten to the point of infidelity.


----------



## GreenEyes

COguy said:


> Yeah you nailed me to a T. I was convinced it was my wife's problems. She was just being crazy, I certainly wasn't doing anything wrong!! If she wanted to make a big deal let her, I'm not going to give in to her craziness!
> 
> God how stupid was that?? I set the tone for our marriage that my wife's feelings didn't matter. I wish I could take back that experience and just tell her flat out, "I don't think it's a big deal we talk, but I know it bothers you so I won't do it any more and won't regret it at all!"
> 
> If I had been in that state of mind when we first got married, there is no way in hell shecould have gotten to the point of infidelity.


I nailed it because I'm married to it LOL I have been called crazy, psycho, controlling, you name it!!! My H's response at one point was if it isn't "so and so", it will be someone else, I'm not going to stop having friends that are girls, get over it haha So yes that pretty much sets the tone for the marriage, as far as how much he cares about my feelings.... 

I think you are a wonderful person for having that attitude and mentality towards your wife/marriage.


----------



## that_girl

COguy said:


> Yeah you nailed me to a T. I was convinced it was my wife's problems. She was just being crazy, I certainly wasn't doing anything wrong!! If she wanted to make a big deal let her, I'm not going to give in to her craziness!
> 
> *God how stupid was that?? I set the tone for our marriage that my wife's feelings didn't matter. I wish I could take back that experience and just tell her flat out, "I don't think it's a big deal we talk, but I know it bothers you so I won't do it any more and won't regret it at all!"*
> 
> If I had been in that state of mind when we first got married, there is no way in hell shecould have gotten to the point of infidelity.


:iagree: Yup


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## that_girl

My husband has female friends, but never once did he tell me I was crazy or controlling when I voiced concern. He would have a conversation with me and validate my concerns..."I can see how you see it that way..." and then tone down the contact with his friends. He's always had more female than male friends. My hubs isn't a 'guys guy'. He doesn't hang out with his female friends either. He just knows females and that's ok. More like acquaintances. 

Now, if one of his female friends was grinding on him at parties and he didn't stop it or whatever, then we'd have words. His friends don't ask him out and he doesn't ask them out. He'll tell me if they contact him just to say, "So and so is having a hard time with xyz." Fine. Although, he knows I don't trust those women. They need to find a single man to be their shoulder to cry on.

But we've talked sooo much about this topic and came to agreements that work for both of us. It wasn't accusatory, just setting boundaries and trying to understand each other's points...as I think friends of opposite sex is insane and he doesn't see the big deal. My therapist says everyone has different experiences which help shape views of this topic and since he's never been cheated on or cheated, he does not see the big deal as he has boundaries for himself.

I, however, in my younger years, had NO personal boundaries so I don't really trust women. I've been screwed over by women and I've done some screwing over. My experience with this topic is NO DIFFERENT SEX FRIENDS. Hubs doesn't agree...so we worked it out where we're both happy. I trust him. He's proven himself to be trustworthy and he really tries to understand where I'm coming from.

I had an ex that had "friends"...but I couldn't hang out with them, nor were my feelings validated. I was PSYCHO and INSANE and I needed HELP just because I didn't want my ex to go out with his 'friends'.

I know now that they were more than friends. 

I will say that Hubs had a friend when we first started dating that seriously had the hots for him. He didn't even see it. She would throw daggers at me with her eyes...omg...Well, he didn't see it and one day before going out, I said, just watch her towards me and see what you see.

He was floored. lol. He was like, wow...I've never seen her like that! He started to avoid her. When we got married, she talked CRAZY SHET on me and him and it got back to us and it shocked him because she was always "so nice". Yea. "So nice" my ass.

But I had bad vibes about her when I met her. I haven't had those vibes with other women he knows. one of his friends is now one of my best friends!


----------



## Tall Average Guy

GreenEyes said:


> Too bad more men can't be like you....a lot of people have to justify their actions by saying their spouse is crazy or overreacting, instead of just owning up that their actions might be hurting their spouse and they should stop, even if they don't want to....Good for you for being an actual man!


My wife never came out and said anything, but I saw it and stayed away. She had a feeling about the girl, and it was not like I could argue about it. She has not (to my knowledge) had that feeling in a long time (since we were dating), so I went along with it. It makes her feel happy and secure, so I figure that is a good thing.

We don't have close friends of the opposite sex. The only one I can really think of is a former co-worker that I get together with at lunch 1-2 times a year. Our families trade Christmas cards and my wife and I were invited to her wedding. My wife always know about them at least a couple of days in advance, in part because she helps me get pictures of the kids that I can show my friend. If my wife ever voiced any concern, the lunches would stop. The friendship is not that important.


----------



## GreenEyes

Tall Average Guy said:


> My wife never came out and said anything, but I saw it and stayed away. She had a feeling about the girl, and it was not like I could argue about it. She has not (to my knowledge) had that feeling in a long time (since we were dating), so I went along with it. It makes her feel happy and secure, so I figure that is a good thing.
> 
> We don't have close friends of the opposite sex. The only one I can really think of is a former co-worker that I get together with at lunch 1-2 times a year. Our families trade Christmas cards and my wife and I were invited to her wedding. My wife always know about them at least a couple of days in advance, in part because she helps me get pictures of the kids that I can show my friend. If my wife ever voiced any concern, the lunches would stop. The friendship is not that important.


Well like you said, the fact that she knows your marriage comes above all else in your life gives her security to be ok with some things. Marriage is full of give and takes.


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## COguy

GreenEyes said:


> I nailed it because I'm married to it LOL I have been called crazy, psycho, controlling, you name it!!! My H's response at one point was if it isn't "so and so", it will be someone else, I'm not going to stop having friends that are girls, get over it haha So yes that pretty much sets the tone for the marriage, as far as how much he cares about my feelings....
> 
> I think you are a wonderful person for having that attitude and mentality towards your wife/marriage.


Well the worst thing you can do is just put up with it. Like I said, it would have taken a lot to shake me up from that, probably the only thing is her doing the same (which she did and I don't recommend) or walking out on me.

Or you can send him here and we'll talk some sense into him.


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## GreenEyes

COguy said:


> Well the worst thing you can do is just put up with it. Like I said, it would have taken a lot to shake me up from that, probably the only thing is her doing the same (which she did and I don't recommend) or walking out on me.
> 
> Or you can send him here and we'll talk some sense into him.


LOL I would love to send him here, but if he knew I belonged to a website where you talk about your "personal problems" he would probably freak out on me....so for now I keep it to myself. I was actually considering writing him a letter tonight just putting everything I'm feeling out there on the table because I have been having an especially crappy day thinking about things he had said to me about his EA the other day, although he does not classify it as an affair emotional or otherwise _at all_....Even with the threat of divorce looming over my head, I feel like if I don't get everything out I will explode....I have thought about doing the same thing back to him, but not only would he not care, or wouldn't say anything about it, but that's just not my style...


----------



## Kurosity

GreenEyes said:


> I nailed it because I'm married to it LOL I have been called crazy, psycho, controlling, you name it!!! My H's response at one point was if it isn't "so and so", it will be someone else, I'm not going to stop having friends that are girls, get over it haha So yes that pretty much sets the tone for the marriage, as far as how much he cares about my feelings....
> 
> I think you are a wonderful person for having that attitude and mentality towards your wife/marriage.


That sounds like alot of the usuless disagrements me and my H have had. I was always wanting him to set a damn boundarys and stick to them. Man I hope that one day we have that all behind us and he can have friends but knows when things are not with in boundaries and put a stop before it starts. Heres to getting things moving in that dirrection soon. Feeling hopeful today about it


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## GreenEyes

Kurosity said:


> That sounds like alot of the usuless disagrements me and my H have had. I was always wanting him to set a damn boundarys and stick to them. Man I hope that one day we have that all behind us and he can have friends but knows when things are not with in boundaries and put a stop before it starts. Heres to getting things moving in that dirrection soon. Feeling hopeful today about it


I'll drink to that :toast:


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## Kurosity

:smthumbup::smthumbup: here here!


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## COguy

Kurosity said:


> That sounds like alot of the usuless disagrements me and my H have had. I was always wanting him to set a damn boundarys and stick to them. Man I hope that one day we have that all behind us and he can have friends but knows when things are not with in boundaries and put a stop before it starts. Heres to getting things moving in that dirrection soon. Feeling hopeful today about it


Well you can set boundaries so you can play with fire, or you can not play with fire to start.

After my situation and my wife's, I'd rather just avoid the situation all together. The potential upsides for an opposite sex friendship are just not worth the potential downsides. The stepping over of boundaries can be so quick, so unnoticeable, so easy.


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## COguy

GreenEyes said:


> LOL I would love to send him here, but if he knew I belonged to a website where you talk about your "personal problems" he would probably freak out on me....so for now I keep it to myself. I was actually considering writing him a letter tonight just putting everything I'm feeling out there on the table because I have been having an especially crappy day thinking about things he had said to me about his EA the other day, although he does not classify it as an affair emotional or otherwise _at all_....Even with the threat of divorce looming over my head, I feel like if I don't get everything out I will explode....I have thought about doing the same thing back to him, but not only would he not care, or wouldn't say anything about it, but that's just not my style...



Maybe you have a thread on here but why are you sticking around? Write him the letter! If he doesn't want to appreciate what an awesome wife he has, it's his loss. You deserve a husband that cares about your feelings.


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## GreenEyes

COguy said:


> Maybe you have a thread on here but why are you sticking around? Write him the letter! If he doesn't want to appreciate what an awesome wife he has, it's his loss. You deserve a husband that cares about your feelings.


I am writing him the letter right now...I have been staring at the same 3 sentences for about a half hour now, I have no idea what to write....I know what i want to say, but not how to put it out there. I am hoping I can start writing and it will just start coming to me....I think I need a little wine to kick start the thinking process hahaha


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## Kurosity

COguy said:


> Well you can set boundaries so you can play with fire, or you can not play with fire to start.
> 
> After my situation and my wife's, I'd rather just avoid the situation all together. The potential upsides for an opposite sex friendship are just not worth the potential downsides. The stepping over of boundaries can be so quick, so unnoticeable, so easy.


This is true there is the fire playing aspect but my husband is dim witted when it comes to seeing a woman coming on to him and that will never change. I can not ask him to have no friends of the opposite sex that to me would be like saying to him that he can not talk to my sister because I am afraid their conecting parts might get connected simply because they have them....no I think that boundaires will help and if I am uncomfortable with a relationship then it has to go. May be it will have to be your way. We are after all just figuring out the mess we are in and chasing down our happy ending to this chapter in our marriage. (it will be a happy ending to a sad chapter I hope)


----------



## COguy

Kurosity said:


> This is true there is the fire playing aspect but my husband is dim witted when it comes to seeing a woman coming on to him and that will never change. I can not ask him to have no friends of the opposite sex that to me would be like saying to him that he can not talk to my sister because I am afraid their conecting parts might get connected simply because they have them....no I think that boundaires will help and if I am uncomfortable with a relationship then it has to go. May be it will have to be your way. We are after all just figuring out the mess we are in and chasing down our happy ending to this chapter in our marriage. (it will be a happy ending to a sad chapter I hope)


It's one thing to say you can't communicate or interact with opposite sex, it's another to have personal friendships. I have many "friends" that are women, they are friends of my wife or wives of my guy friends. I don't interact with them on a 1 on 1 basis and I don't communicate with them privately. If I want to find out how one of my old friends from school is doing, I write on their public FB wall. If I for some reason had to call someone like that, I would do it in front of my wife.

The fact that he's dim-witted makes it even more dangerous.

I used to think that what I am saying now was ridiculous. I used to think it was stupid to say you couldn't have any friends of the opposite sex. Then my perfect wife cheated on me and I realized we're all capable in our down times of doing stupid crap, myself included. Since then my perspective has changed dramatically and I can't see why I would even want to have opposite sex friendships. When I'm honest with myself, it's only because there exists underneath the surface some sort of attraction there, or thrill from being admired or thought highly of. These are all things I should be sharing with my wife.


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## Kurosity

COguy said:


> It's one thing to say you can't communicate or interact with opposite sex, it's another to have personal friendships. I have many "friends" that are women, they are friends of my wife or wives of my guy friends. I don't interact with them on a 1 on 1 basis and I don't communicate with them privately. If I want to find out how one of my old friends from school is doing, I write on their public FB wall. If I for some reason had to call someone like that, I would do it in front of my wife.
> 
> The fact that he's dim-witted makes it even more dangerous.
> 
> I used to think that what I am saying now was ridiculous. I used to think it was stupid to say you couldn't have any friends of the opposite sex. Then my perfect wife cheated on me and I realized we're all capable in our down times of doing stupid crap, myself included. Since then my perspective has changed dramatically and I can't see why I would even want to have opposite sex friendships. When I'm honest with myself, it's only because there exists underneath the surface some sort of attraction there, or thrill from being admired or thought highly of. These are all things I should be sharing with my wife.


Got it!!! I totally get what you are saying now and why you are very sure about it. I guess it is dangerouse if the spouse is exclueded from the friendship........apparently the light bulb just turned on for me in this area....going to have to talk about it with my H. Thanks for shinning the light on it for me.


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## 2sick

COguy said:


> It's one thing to say you can't communicate or interact with opposite sex, it's another to have personal friendships. I have many "friends" that are women, they are friends of my wife or wives of my guy friends. I don't interact with them on a 1 on 1 basis and I don't communicate with them privately. If I want to find out how one of my old friends from school is doing, I write on their public FB wall. If I for some reason had to call someone like that, I would do it in front of my wife.
> 
> The fact that he's dim-witted makes it even more dangerous.
> 
> I used to think that what I am saying now was ridiculous. I used to think it was stupid to say you couldn't have any friends of the opposite sex. Then my perfect wife cheated on me and I realized we're all capable in our down times of doing stupid crap, myself included. Since then my perspective has changed dramatically and I can't see why I would even want to have opposite sex friendships. When I'm honest with myself, it's only because there exists underneath the surface some sort of attraction there, or thrill from being admired or thought highly of. These are all things I should be sharing with my wife.


First I want to say sorry for you wife's stupid behavior. Cheating is not the answer, even if you were the initiator of conflict. I will say that I too could have headed down the same path of your wife, however, my inner being just would not allow me to even think about it. I had contacted an old friend when we initially started this conflict a year ago, to also discuss our marital problems (more in spite than anything else...since I knew h was talking to others, I will tooo!!). I however, TOLD my h each time I contacted him and even told my h when the friend attempted to cross the line when he called me scrumptious and wanted to meet!! And more importantly I cut off all individual contact from that point on. H didn't have to ask, it was me that felt uncomfortable with the disrespect to my h, even though I had complained to this friend about all of the hurt h had caused me. I'm sorry your wife didn't show you the same compassion and respect! 

More importantly, I wanted to says that your view point is the most absolutely mature thing that has been said!! It is sooo logical and THOUGHTFUL!!! I don't understand why it seems to be such a foreign thought?!? If more people shared your pov, there would be more happy marriages!!!


----------



## readyforbaby76

How are you doing 2sick? are things any better? my heart really goes out to you reading this thread. I absolutely would die if i ever saw any female grinding on my husband, joke or not, drunk or not. 
Whatever.
I totally feel for you too with your dh's responses of you being controlling, etc etc
Is MC helping? 
I think the saddest part of all of this is like many have said, you have 10+ pages of people on your side, who absolutley think this is ****ty of him and also think you should be very concerned - yet, he doesn't seem to care how you feel and how this is effecting you.
His two choices are:
1) change the situation as its hurting his wife (whether he agrees that you are hurt for good reason or not)
2) do nothing and continue as is

He is doing option 2 and that shows that your feelings are NOT his priority. In marriage, you deserve better.
You allowing this - just shows him that you ARE OK WITH HIM NOT PUTTING YOU FIRST 

My heart goes out to you my friend......... I hope one day you can love yourself enough to stop this.


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## 2sick

readyforbaby76 said:


> How are you doing 2sick? are things any better? my heart really goes out to you reading this thread. I absolutely would die if i ever saw any female grinding on my husband, joke or not, drunk or not.
> Whatever.
> I totally feel for you too with your dh's responses of you being controlling, etc etc
> Is MC helping?
> I think the saddest part of all of this is like many have said, you have 10+ pages of people on your side, who absolutley think this is ****ty of him and also think you should be very concerned - yet, he doesn't seem to care how you feel and how this is effecting you.
> His two choices are:
> 1) change the situation as its hurting his wife (whether he agrees that you are hurt for good reason or not)
> 2) do nothing and continue as is
> 
> He is doing option 2 and that shows that your feelings are NOT his priority. In marriage, you deserve better.
> You allowing this - just shows him that you ARE OK WITH HIM NOT PUTTING YOU FIRST
> 
> My heart goes out to you my friend......... I hope one day you can love yourself enough to stop this.


Thanks Ready for your concern and support, it is truly appreciated! I ask myself that very question of why he can't see how it would hurt! 

Things are again swept under the rug, until another day. We have sex and suddenly the issue disappears...Not sure he thinks I forget about it or what? He then wonders why I get upset again..actually I haven't stopped being upset to begin with...NOTHING WAS RESOLVED!!!! Avoidance is quite a big issue in this marriage. Instead of communicating until things are resolved, it just stops.:scratchhead: NOTHING is ever resolved and ALWAYS comes back to bite us in the a$$!! It's easier for him to avoid confrontation rather than try for resolution. I on the other hand NEED to talk it out to the bitter end, be it good or bad...but things can't get better if nothing is solved. Communication and resolution to issues is imperative for a marriage to succeed. H's favorite line is "we agree to disagree"!! I think that is just BS... BIG BS!!! You can't just agree to disagree about the paramount foundation of a marriage...TRUST, HONESTY, COMMUNICATION!!! He just doesn't see it that way...If we don't talk about it maybe it will go away. I'm starting to think maybe he has actually gotten to the point of wanting to leave but doesn't want to grow up and deal with the consequences of leaving. In each of our arguments he insist on freedom, privacy and space...Not sure what kind of freedom any wife would give to go hang out with another woman who would grind, caress, and kiss on her husband. But actually that is besides the point, the true question is why would a husband want to?!?!?

MC went as well as can go. He says we both need to communicate, we don't so we go back?!?! I don't see h pov he doesn't see mine...Not sure where it's going to go from here. You are completely correct, IMO, he doesn't put me first and doesn't see the problem in that (or doesn't see that his behavior demonstrates that he doesn't put me first). This is true with most of our issues...If you look at any of our other posts the same theme just continues on and on.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

2sick said:


> Things are again swept under the rug, until another day. We have sex and suddenly the issue disappears...Not sure he thinks I forget about it or what? He then wonders why I get upset again..actually I haven't stopped being upset to begin with...NOTHING WAS RESOLVED!!!! Avoidance is quite a big issue in this marriage. Instead of communicating until things are resolved, it just stops.:scratchhead: NOTHING is ever resolved and ALWAYS comes back to bite us in the a$$!! It's easier for him to avoid confrontation rather than try for resolution. *I on the other hand NEED to talk it out to the bitter end, be it good or bad...but things can't get better if nothing is solved. *Communication and resolution to issues is imperative for a marriage to succeed. H's favorite line is "we agree to disagree"!! I think that is just BS... BIG BS!!! You can't just agree to disagree about the paramount foundation of a marriage...TRUST, HONESTY, COMMUNICATION!!! He just doesn't see it that way...If we don't talk about it maybe it will go away. I'm starting to think maybe he has actually gotten to the point of wanting to leave but doesn't want to grow up and deal with the consequences of leaving. In each of our arguments he insist on freedom, privacy and space...Not sure what kind of freedom any wife would give to go hang out with another woman who would grind, caress, and kiss on her husband. But actually that is besides the point, the true question is why would a husband want to?!?!?


So this is where I will put it on you. You are avoiding it as well. Perhaps he thinks things are resolved because you appear to be acting as if they resolved? You find his friendship with her inappropriate, want him to stop communicating with her, yet still act as if nothing is wrong (such as by having sex with him). Would you do that if he was sleeping with her? Probably not, so why are you doing it if you believe he is having an emotional affair with her (which, reading between the lines, I think is your real complaint. This is a very serious issue, and everytime you go back to acting like everything is normal, you are communicating it is not. Those are called mixed signals - you need to be consistent.

And perhaps the answer to your last question is because you let him get away with it?


----------



## readyforbaby76

I agree with TAG, sadly this is now ON YOU.

Will you end the marriage over this? I hate to say this, i really hate to say this.............BUT the fact that he keeps doing this and you are staying is basically telling him its OK to do this.

That you will be complain and say you're unhappy but then thats it. That he can continue doing what he wants because (even though you dont like it) you ARE going to tolerate it and stay with him. 

I hate to say it, but why would he change?


----------



## 2sick

Tall Average Guy said:


> So this is where I will put it on you. You are avoiding it as well. Perhaps he thinks things are resolved because you appear to be acting as if they resolved? You find his friendship with her inappropriate, want him to stop communicating with her, yet still act as if nothing is wrong (such as by having sex with him). Would you do that if he was sleeping with her? Probably not, so why are you doing it if you believe he is having an emotional affair with her (which, reading between the lines, I think is your real complaint. This is a very serious issue, and everytime you go back to acting like everything is normal, you are communicating it is not. Those are called mixed signals - you need to be consistent.
> 
> And perhaps the answer to your last question is because you let him get away with it?


Fascinating. So do all men think that just because you have sex everything is forgotten? I was doing it for bonding...not for acceptance of circumstances. However, if that is the mind set of men, then I suppose I need to rethink that. Although that may have sounded snotty, I was being serious...SHOULD I rethink having bonding sex even though I think we are still arguing? Am I wrong? We had stopped Yelling at each other and had started talking TO each other and wanted to reinforce that...but you are probably right...because now that I think about it...that is exactly how everything gets swept under the rug. HMMM something to DEFINITELY bring up to MC next session. Thanks, never thought about it that way. I guess I'm going about it the wrong way.:scratchhead:


----------



## 2sick

readyforbaby76 said:


> I agree with TAG, sadly this is now ON YOU.
> 
> Will you end the marriage over this? I hate to say this, i really hate to say this.............BUT the fact that he keeps doing this and you are staying is basically telling him its OK to do this.
> 
> That you will be complain and say you're unhappy but then thats it. That he can continue doing what he wants because (even though you dont like it) you ARE going to tolerate it and stay with him.
> 
> I hate to say it, but why would he change?


I've already said I don't want to end the marriage. However I am willing to let him go if he needs freedom. Nothing worse than a caged dog!! And I have told him if he needs his space, privacy and freedom then take it. I want the marriage. I want to communicate. I want to be connected, to share to be a true partner!! I can only hope that he will start to see that again.

I understand that you think, ok he may not have said it but his actions are...so leave. It does seem to be a broken record. I guess I'm just stupidly hoping he will snap out of it and see how his selfish behavior is wrong and is hurting his family!

So Yes it's on me to hold on to the dream of a happy marriage. I don't want to truly wake up and see that it is just that, a dream.


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## Tall Average Guy

2sick said:


> Fascinating. So do all men think that just because you have sex everything is forgotten? I was doing it for bonding...not for acceptance of circumstances. However, if that is the mind set of men, then I suppose I need to rethink that. Although that may have sounded snotty, I was being serious...SHOULD I rethink having bonding sex even though I think we are still arguing? Am I wrong? We had stopped Yelling at each other and had started talking TO each other and wanted to reinforce that...but you are probably right...because now that I think about it...that is exactly how everything gets swept under the rug. HMMM something to DEFINITELY bring up to MC next session. Thanks, never thought about it that way. I guess I'm going about it the wrong way.:scratchhead:


In my experience, my wife is not interested in bonding if we have a major outstanding issue that has not be suitably resolved. She may not like every resolution (just like I don't alwys like thme), but it needs to be there, or at least us both working toward that resolution. For example, one of my first arguments with my wife was over whether to get a house or a condo. She wanted a condo (so we could get something right away) while I wanted to save more than go for a house. We did not reach a resolution, but both agreed to do research to find information so that we can discuss which route made more sense. We then had a lot of fun bonding.

Having said that, I don't know your husband and don't know his views. It probably would make sense to raise it in MC. Good luck to you.


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## readyforbaby76

2sick, 

I can't imagine living this way, to me life is too short, you deserve to spend your days happy and with someone who CARES how you feel. 

I wish you luck and hope for your sake that he will, like you said, "snap out of it" ......

Just makes me sad for you


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## SimplyAmorous

> *2Sick said*: I guess I'm just stupidly hoping he will snap out of it and see how his selfish behavior is wrong and is hurting his family



OK, this is going to sound really freaking bad ......but If I was in your shoes, and was determined to stay..... I 'd find myself a GUY friend (single) and act similar. No Bullsh**, that'd be my answer to your dilemma , cause sometimes people need to be on the receiving end of some jealousy to wake thier butts up.

He wants to eat his cake, you can too honey. And it can all be nice & open. I am one of those people ...an "eye for an eye" kinda mentality. 

OK ....throw me to the dogs now.


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## readyforbaby76

:iagree:

Im with Simply 10000%

If you are going to say.....this is the only way to do so and still have some dignity.


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## 2sick

SimplyAmorous said:


> OK, this is going to sound really freaking bad ......but If I was in your shoes, and was determined to stay..... I 'd find myself a GUY friend (single) and act similar. No Bullsh**, that'd be my answer to your dilemma , cause sometimes people need to be on the receiving end of some jealousy to wake thier butts up.
> 
> He wants to eat his cake, you can too honey. And it can all be nice & open. I am one of those people ...an "eye for an eye" kinda mentality.
> 
> OK ....throw me to the dogs now.


Hey ya might smack me around a bit I've got your back...No dogs allowed!!!!

Alright just call me the modern day sandra dee...I agree with you 100% but my dumb a$$ just can't! Just kick me!! I had even thought about flirting with the friend's h. He is a cutie and an unbelievably sweet guy... (and there lies the reason why I wouldn't!!) 

Did you see my earlier post? I had tried that a year ago with one of my old "friends" but it back fired on me...Although he is married he had no problem trying to get together....I RAN!!! I don't think there are any men out there who would just be platonic friends with a woman who pursues them for friendship. Just saying?!?!? Hey but if ya got any ideas bring 'em!!!

Simply I've always said what's good for the goose is good for the gander...I just can't stomach it and that's why I can't figure it out...If I can't how could he?!?!? 

BTW, idea not bad at all!!! :smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## COguy

SimplyAmorous said:


> OK, this is going to sound really freaking bad ......but If I was in your shoes, and was determined to stay..... I 'd find myself a GUY friend (single) and act similar. No Bullsh**, that'd be my answer to your dilemma , cause sometimes people need to be on the receiving end of some jealousy to wake thier butts up.
> 
> He wants to eat his cake, you can too honey. And it can all be nice & open. I am one of those people ...an "eye for an eye" kinda mentality.
> 
> OK ....throw me to the dogs now.


This is me X

This is you Y

These are Dogs ZZZZ

This is me throwing you to the dogs:
XY-------->ZZZZ


Trying to out-pain your spouse is bad mojo. He either wants to understand you or he doesn't. If he doesn't, you need to give him a swift kick in the crotch (a la separation papers). Don't compromise your integrity to manipulate someone.


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## SimplyAmorous

2sick said:


> Hey ya might smack me around a bit I've got your back...No dogs allowed!!!!
> 
> Alright just call me the modern day sandra dee...I agree with you 100% but my dumb a$$ just can't! Just kick me!! I had even thought about flirting with the friend's h. He is a cutie and an unbelievably sweet guy... (and there lies the reason why I wouldn't!!)


 Speaking of this husband, what in the world about him???? So little has been said about HIM, how does he feel about these marital boundaries playing out all over the place.... why doesn't he want to guard his own territory? Is he ok with his wifes private Texts & eating out alone & Bad News looked upon as a concerned dear friend, nothing more....or does he have his own special interest somewhere else, and that is why his marraige is falling apart and she is leaning on your husband?


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## NextTimeAround

Bad News said:


> That's part of the issue, 2sick doesn't want us going to lunch anymore, but also isn't always eager to go out as couples/families.


I had this problem in my failed marriage. I didn't like the way my exh's friends were dismissive of me; pretended not to hear me when I spoke (so when I stopped then my exH accused me of being rude for not even trying and so on).

Is this what your spouse experienced around your friends?


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## Bad News

2sick said:


> I had contacted an old friend when we initially started this conflict a year ago, to also discuss our marital problems (more in spite than anything else...since I knew h was talking to others, I will tooo!!). I however, TOLD my h each time I contacted him and even told my h when the friend attempted to cross the line when he called me scrumptious and wanted to meet!!


Sweetie, really, that's and apples to oranges comparison. You were previously intimate with that guy. The most I've seen of the friend in question is when our families got together at their community pool last year.

And I don't feel that just because you agreed to have sex (oops, I mean make love) that the issue can just lay dormant. Something tells me that we will continue this discussion during our upcomming date night.


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## NextTimeAround

that_girl said:


> He won't give up the friendship, which says a lot.
> 
> 
> If my hubs was upset about a friendship I had, I would listen to his concerns and try to ease them, but if he was really bothered, I'd have to cut the friendship.
> 
> *Your hubs is using the "controlling" thing and "restricted" thing because he doesn't want to give her up, for whatever reason.*
> 
> He told you that you are number one because he doesn't want you to be upset..but ACTIONS speak louder than words and frankly, you aren't #1.


Interesting, I recall in the women's mags in the 80s and 90s, articles that pretty much told women to suck it up if they didn't get along with their partner's friends.


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## Bad News

SimplyAmorous said:


> Speaking of this husband, what in the world about him???? So little has been said about HIM, how does he feel about these marital boundaries playing out all over the place.... why doesn't he want to guard his own territory? Is he ok with his wifes private Texts & eating out alone & Bad News looked upon as a concerned dear friend, nothing more....or does he have his own special interest somewhere else, and that is why his marraige is falling apart and she is leaning on your husband?


Excellent question SA, although I'll think twice about PMing you in the future. Obviously the sure fire way to know is to ask him, but my guess is that it doesn't. But for all the folks that think I'm some supreme a$$ hat, it really doesn't matter because 2sick has a problem with it and I have been unable to assuage her concerns.


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## 2sick

SimplyAmorous said:


> Speaking of this husband, what in the world about him???? So little has been said about HIM, how does he feel about these marital boundaries playing out all over the place.... why doesn't he want to guard his own territory? Is he ok with his wifes private Texts & eating out alone & Bad News looked upon as a concerned dear friend, nothing more....or does he have his own special interest somewhere else, and that is why his marraige is falling apart and she is leaning on your husband?


Well that's the million dollar question!!! She called here crying about it's all her fault and that he deserves someone better and that she loves him and no one else!! To me it sounds like she's not just doing this with my h...or he has gotten fed up with it himself.

In regard to the interaction/grinding, he and I looked as each other with surprise and half shrugged as I a proceeded to get him off of the dance floor. When there is contact he in turn will acknowledge me in a way of letting me know he knows. He has never out right said anything, but he is the proverbial "nice guy" and wouldn't have a confrontation. I am dying to actually talk to him about it, because I'm sure we would probably have a lot to talk about!!


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## 2sick

Bad News said:


> Sweetie, really, that's and apples to oranges comparison. You were previously intimate with that guy. The most I've seen of the friend in question is when our families got together at their community pool last year.
> 
> And I don't feel that just because you agreed to have sex (oops, I mean make love) that the issue can just lay dormant. Something tells me that we will continue this discussion during our upcomming date night.


" the most you've seen of this friend is WHAT!?!?!?!? REALLY!!! Is there a twin I don't know about?!?!? 

BTW, if you don't feel that way then why do you seem to want to side step the issue. And you bet we need to continue this discussion!!


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## that_girl

NextTimeAround said:


> Interesting, I recall in the women's mags in the 80s and 90s, articles that pretty much told women to suck it up if they didn't get along with their partner's friends.


I don't think they meant female friends.


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## 2sick

Bad News said:


> Excellent question SA, although I'll think twice about PMing you in the future. Obviously the sure fire way to know is to ask him, but my guess is that it doesn't. But for all the folks that think I'm some supreme a$$ hat, it really doesn't matter because 2sick has a problem with it and I have been unable to assuage her concerns.


My guess is that it does! bother him...at least something is bothering him about her?!?!? 

And not sure what PMing Simply..with my full knowledge and your Full disclosure of all the messages has anything to do with anything.

And BTW you haven't yet tried to assuage/ease any of my concerns...just telling me that I'm over reacting...not too relieving. Just saying!


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## NextTimeAround

TRy said:


> @Bad News – Your 2 points leave out very relevant facts such as:
> 
> 1) You and the OW are having conversations about marriage issues. These conversations are such that you speak cautiously when your wife is around so that your wife will not understand what you are saying. You and the OW are on the inside and your wife is on the outside.
> 
> 2) The OW got drunk and grinded on you while dancing.
> 
> 3) The OW touched your face to flirt with you. If a guy friend would not have done it then it was flirting and thus inappropriate. The OW knew that your wife was having issues with your relationship with the OW, so doing this was meant to taunt your wife.
> 
> 4) The OW and you want to have lunch alone together even though you agreed with your wife not to do so. The OW knows that your wife does not approve yet still asks. Her “permission” remark was dismissive of your wife and you let the OW get away with it.
> 
> *Many couples do not allow opposite sex friends at all. Those that do allow it often have special rules that acknowledge that there is a difference between same sex and opposite sex friends. Most EA happen where no such rules exist.* Do you have such agreed upon rules? If not you should adopt some. One of the most basic rules that apply to all friends but especially to opposite sex friends is that the friend must be a friend of the marriage. The OW is not a friend of the marriage.
> 
> It cause your wife pain and your answer is MC? You are putting your friendship over your wife’s feelings right there. Take away the grinding incident, the flirting and the inappropriate conversations about marriage issues and your wife would probably not be bothered by this friendship. But they happened and you cannot go back. It does not matter if you are really in an EA or not. If there is reason for a person to be suspicious of the friendship (and there are such reasons), you owe it to your wife to end the relationship; otherwise you are choosing the relationship over the feelings of your spouse.


What would some of those rules be?


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## Tall Average Guy

NextTimeAround said:


> What would some of those rules be?


A couple off the top of my head:

No discussion of your marriage to members of the opposite sex.
No alone time with them.
No discussion of sex or sexual topics with them.

There is a thread on whether you can stop cheating that includes these types of rules (I think it was that_girl that had a very good list).


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## KittyKat

Tall Average Guy said:


> A couple off the top of my head:
> 
> No discussion of your marriage to members of the opposite sex.
> No alone time with them.
> No discussion of sex or sexual topics with them.
> 
> There is a thread on whether you can stop cheating that includes these types of rules (I think it was that_girl that had a very good list).


And let me add, pack HIS bags and put them at the door. He should be the one who leaves. 

Anyone who would put a 'friend' above their spouse, imo, care's less about the spouse. 

If it's just a normal friend, no sexual contact, no sexual aything, no touchng of any sort, then I can see your husband making a stand.
But a woman grinding on your husband, calling him crying about her relationshp, flirting while her own husbands back is turned, that jezebel needs to go! And if your husband can't see this, ask him for the keys to the house as he's picking up his bags.

DO NOT play second fiddle to this woman. Either your husband loves you enough to break off contact with her or he doesn't. It really is that simple.


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## NextTimeAround

I came to TAM as well to get a better picture of this phenemone called Emotional Affairs. I feel that my marriage was torn apart by my exH showing favor to other women to my disadvantage.

One thing that I find interesting is that at time as we had met each other in grad school I had some male friends as well. 

I always expected my male friend to be respectful of my husband and I told my husband if he felt that they were not I wanted to know about it and I would do something about it.

My exH never expressed that courtesy to me. And what I found to occur all to often, is that the more contact a woman had with my exH, the more emboldened and dismissive her behaviors was towards me. I had really started the marriage with assumption that everyone was going to be on their best behavior. Instead, I now realise that there are a fair few people out there, women, certain women who don't care or who maybe even get off on befriending me without any regard to the other relationships he may have or will have in the future.

Sadly, it's for this reason that I am also suspicious of women who behave too chummily with men or who say (as if it were a badge of honor) that they get along better with men than with women.

I don't want to tell my partner what he can or cannot do, but I would like for him to be cognizant of someone who is becoming progressively disrespectful of the web of relationships that he represents.


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