# considering separation -devastated and trying to fix marriage. if possible?



## momofthree42

I am new to this forum, and would really appreciate some advice and honesty. a quick summary of where i am: 
married for 14 years, three kids (2, 6 and 8) 
both my husband and i are professionals - work full time and have successful careers
we have always fought a lot - seemed normal given our lifestyle and our personalities. We always made up and had a blast together regardless
the past few years have been increasingly stressful, with growing careers, kids, etc. 
we have been in therapy for about a year 
in march we decided to stop going to therapy so we each could take a pause and assess what we want and how (and if) we can fix this relationship. we are both seeing our own therapists to help us with this.
we have been living as (somewhat distant) roommates for the past 4 months. It has been horrible and lonely. I cry every day. 
i remain committed to our marriage. i am hurt and have a lot of resentment toward him, but am willing to do whatever i can to fix this 
he is undecided. through his therapy it seems that he is building a case to leave me. he is focusing on all the ways that he has been hurt and 'abused' throughout our marriage. 
to summarize what our major issue is: i think we have very different perspectives on 'family life.' he adores our children, but has a short temper and limited patience for their whining, not listening, etc. he also does very little to help around the house. in fairness, because of our work schedules, we have a full-time nanny who helps out a lot with the kids while we are at work during the week. but i do the majority the 'management' for both the kids and the house - attending sporting events, liaising with the school, cooking for the family, cleaning up, grocery shopping, house mainetentnce - changing lightbulbs, home repairs, arrange social plans, doctors appointments, yardwork, etc. he wont even grill burgers when we have company! i also get up early every morning with the kids and put them to bed every night. (and I work long hours - roughly 9 - 10 hours every weekday). i have tried (for years) to ask him for more help with this stuff, but mostly this has ended in fights. (I don’t think he understands the amount of work and planning that goes into family life and as a result, he doesn’t appreciate any of what I do – also when he does pitch in, he sees it as helping ME, not doing something for OUR family) As a result, I am deeply resentful – I feel completely taken advantage of and alone. Our sex life has been almost non-existent for years (probably mostly driven by me). Also he is a highly intense person – very successful professionally, but has a short temper and a lot of anger. He is also a musician (on the side) so he has a lot of things going on. He tends to lash out at me when he is under pressure at work, with his family, music, etc. He says that I am a nag and too demanding and have made him feel that no matter what he does, I will never be happy, so he has basically given up. Due to a lot of therapy and self-examination, I can understand why he feels that way (from his perspective), but also don’t think that he is taking into consideration how much pain I have been in over the past 10 years (we struggled with infertility for our first two kids, had two miscarriages and lost a twin at 5 months into the pregnancy). During that time, I also was failing at work and almost got fired from my ‘dream job’. So that period of 5+ years was very painful for me and although I think he thought he was supporting me, I still felt alone. And then once our family was formed and I got back on my feet professionally, we found ourselves in our current position 
So anyway, now we are at this impasse. We both recognize that our marriage is not sustainable the way that it was, so we need to make a change. I am committed to doing that – not just for our kids – but for us too (I don’t want to stay togethger for the kids, I want a real marriage!). It just seems that everytime we talk, he moves further and further away from getting there. i am trying to give him his space (which he has asked for), but it seems to only be bringing us further and further apart. Does anyone have any advice on what to do when your spouse has seemingly checked out? And maybe I need to change my frame of mind to focus on moving forward with a separation (which we have talked about). 
Thanks for letting me vent. I hope this all makes sense.


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## Jessica38

You're being neglected in your marriage and you're seeing the issue with IC, that the focus is on making their client happy, and anything that stands in the way of their happiness (you) is an issue. 

If I were you, I'd contact Dr. Harley with Marriage Builders. He wrote His Needs, Her Needs and Lovebusters that explains how to meet each other's needs in marriage and how to avoid hurting our spouse's love for us. In the case of neglected wives, he recommends asking your spouse to meet your needs while you are committed to meeting his, and living by the Policy of Joint Agreement, where the two of you make parenting/household decisions together, which will become easier once the two of you are back in love. Right now, you're both vacillating between in-conflict and possibly withdrawal (on your husband's part). 

Here's a good article to start with:
Why Women Leave Men


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## NotLettingGo

I"m new here and not too successful at relationships so take my advice with a grain of salt. 

For what it's worth, you sound tired. Nothing wrong with loving your job and pursuing dreams but it's not possible to "have it all." I've been there and just ended up too tired to enjoy any of the things I worked so hard to get. Each of you will have to decide on your priorities before you have any hope of salvaging your relationship.


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## momofthree42

Thanks for saying that, NotLettingGo. i think you are right. i am tired and i believe so is he. the issue is that in his therapy and time alone, he is becoming more and more angry at me and drawn away from me and the family life that i thought we both wanted. for example, this afternoon he took my daughter (9) to her softball game (its a playoff game so one of the last of the season) this is the first game that he has been to. she was so excited that he was coming, but when they got home she told me that he was on his phone the whole time and didnt see her play (she did say that he could hear the game). i didnt dare to say anything to him, but am really hurt by this for her. 

i;ve been reading a lot of articles and books about how to save a marriage. they all say the same thing - prioritize the marriage, worrry less about being right and more about being together, listen and make your spouse feel heard and seen. i am really trying to take that advice, but it is being met with anger and resentment, so its hard to keep trying. everything that he does says that this marriage is not important to him and neither am i. he told me that he 'cares about me' and thinks 'i am a good person.' but that is about as much positive emotion that he can draw up for me. everything else is negative.

Also as i mentioned, he is a musician (as well as a partner in a large law firm) and has recently made himself busier with gigs and rehearsals,so he;s out at least twice a week. last week he sent me a list of gigs that he has booked for the summer. there were gigs on every weekend through the end of the summer - with the exception of a couple of weekends that we are planning to be out of town. i convinced him to see if he could reschedule some of the saturday night gigs to friday nights so we could have our usual date night with our friends. he reluctantly agreed and reached out to the venue. now they are not getting back to him and he is convinced that he has lost all the gigs because of me. 

i am startig to think that maybe i would be better off leaving this marriage. i would hate to tear my family apart for my kids sake, but it is not healthy for them to see us like this. my reluctance to leave is also compounded by the fact that i ma a 42-year-old mother of three. not exactly the ideal mate for someone new!


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## Absurdist

Mom3 - very gently... you said that sex life is non-existent and mostly by you. This is the 900 lb gorilla in the room. Until you and he address this issue you are whistling through the graveyard. In his mind absence of a sex life is 99% of the marriage. Everything else in your marriage branches off of this issue.


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## oldshirt

You really don't have much of a marriage or partnership now. What would really be the difference if you were on your own? At least then you could do whatever you wanted and whatever you thought was best. 

Let's say you never did find someone else (which is a completely false assumption BTW - but let's say you didn't just for the sake of argument) would you be better off with whatever little tidbits of married life you may be getting now? 

Or would you be better off on your own, living your own life how you see fit?


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## MartinBeck

A few comments:
1) It's normal and healthy for a successful professional man in his 40s to love his kids but to value putting his time into his career and his hobbies versus kidstuff and house stuff. It doesn't mean he doesn't love his kids, but that he feels he needs a balance in his life. And that balance is going to be very different than a mom's. He flat out will never get super into the scheduling of the kids activities, etc. You have to accept that that's ok.
Your husband very likely thinks that you obsess over kid stuff at the cost of the marriage and over enjoying the rest of life.

2) if you are feeling resentful about division-of-labor, then if you have the income for it, outsource. You already have the nanny. If you need it, do get gardener, handyman, Blue Apron for meals, etc. Just pay to get your problems solved rather than for these problems to continue to build resentment that can destroy your marriage. 

3) Why are you a sexual refuser? 

Your husband thinks you are trapped in toxic mommy-martyrdom-mode and it's reinforced by your dead bedroom. The advice from many of us here on TAM if he was posting would be for him to start making plans to leave you.


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## MartinBeck

momofthree42 said:


> Also as i mentioned, he is a musician (as well as a partner in a large law firm) and has recently made himself busier with gigs and rehearsals,so he;s out at least twice a week. last week he sent me a list of gigs that he has booked for the summer. there were gigs on every weekend through the end of the summer - with the exception of a couple of weekends that we are planning to be out of town. i convinced him to see if he could reschedule some of the saturday night gigs to friday nights so we could have our usual date night with our friends. he reluctantly agreed and reached out to the venue. now they are not getting back to him and he is convinced that he has lost all the gigs because of me.




Why is what you want to do, the date night with "our" (read: your) friends, more important than what he wants to do? 

Key questions: 
1) How often do you have sex on Saturday nights after date night?
2) How often do you go to his gigs and watch him play? 

If you want to save your marriage, start making both of these numbers much much higher. You need to prioritize spending your time and energy on him rather than kid****.


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## MartinBeck

He's going to come home on Saturday nights this summer after hanging out with your friends and being refused sex by you and start becoming even more resentful that he can't even go to his band gigs. 
He really should have stood up for himself and refused to reschedule the gigs.


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## aine

momofthree42 said:


> I am new to this forum, and would really appreciate some advice and honesty. a quick summary of where i am:
> married for 14 years, three kids (2, 6 and 8)
> both my husband and i are professionals - work full time and have successful careers
> we have always fought a lot - seemed normal given our lifestyle and our personalities. We always made up and had a blast together regardless
> the past few years have been increasingly stressful, with growing careers, kids, etc.
> we have been in therapy for about a year
> in march we decided to stop going to therapy so we each could take a pause and assess what we want and how (and if) we can fix this relationship. we are both seeing our own therapists to help us with this.
> we have been living as (somewhat distant) roommates for the past 4 months. It has been horrible and lonely. I cry every day.
> i remain committed to our marriage. i am hurt and have a lot of resentment toward him, but am willing to do whatever i can to fix this
> he is undecided. through his therapy it seems that he is building a case to leave me. he is focusing on all the ways that he has been hurt and 'abused' throughout our marriage.
> to summarize what our major issue is: i think we have very different perspectives on 'family life.' he adores our children, but has a short temper and limited patience for their whining, not listening, etc. he also does very little to help around the house. in fairness, because of our work schedules, we have a full-time nanny who helps out a lot with the kids while we are at work during the week. but i do the majority the 'management' for both the kids and the house - attending sporting events, liaising with the school, cooking for the family, cleaning up, grocery shopping, house mainetentnce - changing lightbulbs, home repairs, arrange social plans, doctors appointments, yardwork, etc. he wont even grill burgers when we have company! i also get up early every morning with the kids and put them to bed every night. (and I work long hours - roughly 9 - 10 hours every weekday). i have tried (for years) to ask him for more help with this stuff, but mostly this has ended in fights. (I don’t think he understands the amount of work and planning that goes into family life and as a result, he doesn’t appreciate any of what I do – also when he does pitch in, he sees it as helping ME, not doing something for OUR family) As a result, I am deeply resentful – I feel completely taken advantage of and alone. Our sex life has been almost non-existent for years (probably mostly driven by me). Also he is a highly intense person – very successful professionally, but has a short temper and a lot of anger. He is also a musician (on the side) so he has a lot of things going on. He tends to lash out at me when he is under pressure at work, with his family, music, etc. He says that I am a nag and too demanding and have made him feel that no matter what he does, I will never be happy, so he has basically given up. Due to a lot of therapy and self-examination, I can understand why he feels that way (from his perspective), but also don’t think that he is taking into consideration how much pain I have been in over the past 10 years (we struggled with infertility for our first two kids, had two miscarriages and lost a twin at 5 months into the pregnancy). During that time, I also was failing at work and almost got fired from my ‘dream job’. So that period of 5+ years was very painful for me and although I think he thought he was supporting me, I still felt alone. And then once our family was formed and I got back on my feet professionally, we found ourselves in our current position
> So anyway, now we are at this impasse. We both recognize that our marriage is not sustainable the way that it was, so we need to make a change. I am committed to doing that – not just for our kids – but for us too (I don’t want to stay togethger for the kids, I want a real marriage!). It just seems that everytime we talk, he moves further and further away from getting there. i am trying to give him his space (which he has asked for), but it seems to only be bringing us further and further apart. Does anyone have any advice on what to do when your spouse has seemingly checked out? And maybe I need to change my frame of mind to focus on moving forward with a separation (which we have talked about).
> Thanks for letting me vent. I hope this all makes sense.


Your H sounds like a selfish ass, he works, pursues his hobby, you work and do everything else. Stop chasing him and wanting to make it work, do the 180 on him, show him that you do not need him, you sound like you are more invested in the marriage than he is.

I would suggest that you take a week off work, go away somewhere, tell him to take care of the family stuff for the week and just take time to reflect. Why do you want to stay in the marriage with a man who neglects you and puts little value on your contribution. I know your kids are young, but you can still manage without him.

If he wants a divorce, give it to him, he is probably enjoying the fact that he gets to play the 'pick me' dance with you, as you are all in, you should do some withdrawing too and change your tune. Start doing more things for yourself, go to the gym, dress up, get your hair, nails, etc done. Go out with friends more, show him that life goes on. A woman who is confident and not co dependent will be much more attractive to him by then however, I hope you will begin to realize your worth does not come from him.


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## Spitfire

Change date night to Friday night with just the two of you, get a maid, hire a lawn service, order dinner out more, start having sex with him.


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## MartinBeck

Spitfire said:


> Change date night to Friday night with just the two of you, get a maid, hire a lawn service, order dinner out more, start having sex with him.




Change date night to going with the friends to see him play in his band, and then have sex with him after the show.


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## MartinBeck

Mrs MomOfThree - 
Even your username says your identity is all about being a mom.

You need to take a deep look at some difficult thinks and acknowledge that you have been a crappy wife. You have prioritized your kids over the marriage, you are kinda controlling of his time, unsupportive of his passion for music, and you are a sexual refuser. You seem pretty checked out of the relationship and value "having a husband" but not him, and are completely unwilling to invest time and energy in the marriage. 

You need to understand that if it was your husband posting here instead of you, a strong contingent here on TAM would be advising him to leave you.

The only thing I really think your husband is doing wrong is being on his phone during the kids sports game. Somebody (not you) needs to tap him on the shoulder and tell him "Don't be that guy".


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## Jessica38

momofthree42 said:


> Also as i mentioned, he is a musician (as well as a partner in a large law firm) and has recently made himself busier with gigs and rehearsals,so he;s out at least twice a week. last week he sent me a list of gigs that he has booked for the summer. there were gigs on every weekend through the end of the summer - with the exception of a couple of weekends that we are planning to be out of town. i convinced him to see if he could reschedule some of the saturday night gigs to friday nights so we could have our usual date night with our friends. he reluctantly agreed and reached out to the venue. now they are not getting back to him and he is convinced that he has lost all the gigs because of me.


I'd suggest reading His Needs, Her Needs and Lovebusters. Your husband is engaging in independent behavior, making choices for himself without considering you, which is causing you to lose your love for him. If this continues, you're going to face a divorce anyways because he's living his life as if you don't exist. Nights apart and a sexless marriage make him very vulnerable to having his needs met outside of the marriage, even if that means simply developing feelings for another woman (an EA) and not a full PA. You are also at risk since your needs are not being met by your husband. To save your marriage, you're going to have to sell your husband on both of you radically changing from an independent marriage to an interdependent one, where you both show each other extraordinary care and make decisions together.


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## momofthree42

There are a lot of reasons as to why we are not and have not had as much sex as we should. From my perspective, I am always up for having sex and am really attracted to my husband. getting pregnant was a several-year- long struggle for us (IVF, miscarriages, lost a twin halfway through the pregnancy), so for a few years that really had a negatve impact. furthermore, he does not like to iniatiate sex with me. he would rather that i am the one who iniatiates. and to be honest, given that i am the one iniating all the other areas of our life, i would like for him to desire me in the bedroom. it


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## momofthree42

We've done this and it works - only to a point. there are only so many nights that other couples want to go to hear music, plus when other friends come to his gigs, he only socializes wiht the other musicians, rather than the friends who have come to see him play. i think its quite rude, and i think they do too.


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## jb02157

I get the feeling, here, that if we asked the OP's husband for his version of this story we would get something completely different. Bottom line here is that the OP is a refuser so that's the cause of the breakdown in the marriage. So, she basically brought all of this on herself. I think her husband would have a completely different attitude toward her if she let sex return to the marriage. But no, she would rather build all this resentment and divorce him. 

I highly encourage the OP to schedule a week vacation for just the two of them and stop being a refuser. He would have a totally different attitude, provided it's not not too late and his resentment of her would hinder saving the marriage.


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## Mr.Fisty

jb02157 said:


> I get the feeling, here, that if we asked the OP's husband for his version of this story we would get something completely different. Bottom line here is that the OP is a refuser so that's the cause of the breakdown in the marriage. So, she basically brought all of this on herself. I think her husband would have a completely different attitude toward her if she let sex return to the marriage. But no, she would rather build all this resentment and divorce him.
> 
> I highly encourage the OP to schedule a week vacation for just the two of them and stop being a refuser. He would have a totally different attitude, provided it's not not too late and his resentment of her would hinder saving the marriage.



Great, if his 9 year-old daughter would give him sex, he would also pay attention to her. How about the sons as well, then he would gladly spend tiem with his children. LOL, he has time for his music, career but no tiem for his parental responsibility. Must be hard parenting by check book only. Why not shame the children or is she also responsible for her husband being an absent father? 

"Thanks for saying that, NotLettingGo. i think you are right. i am tired and i believe so is he. the issue is that in his therapy and time alone, he is becoming more and more angry at me and drawn away from me and the family life that i thought we both wanted. for example, this afternoon he took my daughter (9) to her softball game (its a playoff game so one of the last of the season) this is the first game that he has been to. she was so excited that he was coming, but when they got home she told me that he was on his phone the whole time and didnt see her play (she did say that he could hear the game). i didnt dare to say anything to him, but am really hurt by this for her. 
"

Oh, he also gotten angry because she asked him to reschedule a gig because he had schedule it for their plan quality tiem together. He nearly booked his entire summer with gigs. Why can't he just keep going at his career, spend his time on his music? She is nagging him to be a father, help around the home? Why cannot she just let him come home after work, ignore the children, have her cook and clean for him, use her vagina and disappear over the weekend for his music plus practice. If you believe that her refusing him sex turne him into an ass towards her, what did the children do wrong or do they also get punished/ That speaks more towards his character than if she just refused sex.

Please give her children the rationalization why hhe is an absentee father. I sense daddy issues for the daughter in her future.

Yep, sex would solve all their issues. Or he would just use her like a blow-up doll and she would still be ignored is another possibility. Yay! He also gets rewarded and loved for being such a sh*tty father. I He must think, I can get sex and be a crappy father. My music and phone even comes before spending quality tiem with my daughter. You see, I fail to see how sex would fix him being a father unless you blame her for that as well.

And if your aadvice fails and he only cares about using her vagina, well, that would not be a bad hit to her self worth either. Kind of remind me of losinghim, how he would be only interested in her if sex was involved. Look at her thread. He has little to do with her if sex was not involved. I believe they have sex multiple times a week and she acts like a porn star for him and he is still a sh*tty husband and father.

He may just be more selfish.

I LOL when posters ignore the other information that the OP posted. Oh look, he did not book tiem to spend any time with the children over the summer either. Weird that huh?


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## Primrose

MartinBeck said:


> Mrs MomOfThree -
> Even your username says your identity is all about being a mom.
> 
> You need to take a deep look at some difficult thinks and acknowledge that you have been a crappy wife. You have prioritized your kids over the marriage, you are kinda controlling of his time, unsupportive of his passion for music, and you are a sexual refuser. You seem pretty checked out of the relationship and value "having a husband" but not him, and are completely unwilling to invest time and energy in the marriage.
> 
> You need to understand that if it was your husband posting here instead of you, a strong contingent here on TAM would be advising him to leave you.
> 
> The only thing I really think your husband is doing wrong is being on his phone during the kids sports game. Somebody (not you) needs to tap him on the shoulder and tell him "Don't be that guy".



Jesus Christ. Someone has to be a parent in this family dynamic and it's obvious it's not going to be the father. 

Sex may solve some of their issues, but isn't it also possible that her desire for him started to disintegrate once he began putting HER on the back burner? 

Are you also implying that he will become a present dad if his sexual needs are being met? 

Or maybe we are just dealing with a man who isn't daddy material and is too selfish in his own successes to put anyone else before him.


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## Jessica38

MartinBeck said:


> She will never do any of these things because she refuses to prioritize herself or her appearance or her marriage over the kids. She's "too busy with the kids" to go to the gym or take care of herself or make an effort to be attractive.
> I bet she has no friends and no social life outside of other moms.
> 
> That's part of why he's more and more thinking about leaving her.


This seems extremely presumptuous. Nowhere has the OP said that she refuses to workout and take care of herself, and many mothers maintain a social circle of other moms after having kids- it's part of building friendships with those with similar interests. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being interested in your kids.

If you're trying to say that she should care for herself more and worry about her husband less, and be more independent of him, you're entitled to your opinion, but you could have stated it in a much less offensive way. The OP has every right to come here asking for advice on how to improve her marriage without dealing with such offensive replies.


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## Jessica38

@Mr.Fisty I really wanted to like your post but the first line creeps me out.


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## jb02157

Mr.Fisty said:


> Great, if his 9 year-old daughter would give him sex, he would also pay attention to her. How about the sons as well, then he would gladly spend tiem with his children. LOL, he has time for his music, career but no tiem for his parental responsibility. Must be hard parenting by check book only. Why not shame the children or is she also responsible for her husband being an absent father?
> 
> "Thanks for saying that, NotLettingGo. i think you are right. i am tired and i believe so is he. the issue is that in his therapy and time alone, he is becoming more and more angry at me and drawn away from me and the family life that i thought we both wanted. for example, this afternoon he took my daughter (9) to her softball game (its a playoff game so one of the last of the season) this is the first game that he has been to. she was so excited that he was coming, but when they got home she told me that he was on his phone the whole time and didnt see her play (she did say that he could hear the game). i didnt dare to say anything to him, but am really hurt by this for her.
> "
> 
> Oh, he also gotten angry because she asked him to reschedule a gig because he had schedule it for their plan quality tiem together. He nearly booked his entire summer with gigs. Why can't he just keep going at his career, spend his time on his music? She is nagging him to be a father, help around the home? Why cannot she just let him come home after work, ignore the children, have her cook and clean for him, use her vagina and disappear over the weekend for his music plus practice. If you believe that her refusing him sex turne him into an ass towards her, what did the children do wrong or do they also get punished/ That speaks more towards his character than if she just refused sex.
> 
> Please give her children the rationalization why hhe is an absentee father. I sense daddy issues for the daughter in her future.
> 
> Yep, sex would solve all their issues. Or he would just use her like a blow-up doll and she would still be ignored is another possibility. Yay! He also gets rewarded and loved for being such a sh*tty father. I He must think, I can get sex and be a crappy father. My music and phone even comes before spending quality tiem with my daughter. You see, I fail to see how sex would fix him being a father unless you blame her for that as well.
> 
> And if your aadvice fails and he only cares about using her vagina, well, that would not be a bad hit to her self worth either. Kind of remind me of losinghim, how he would be only interested in her if sex was involved. Look at her thread. He has little to do with her if sex was not involved. I believe they have sex multiple times a week and she acts like a porn star for him and he is still a sh*tty husband and father.
> 
> He may just be more selfish.
> 
> I LOL when posters ignore the other information that the OP posted. Oh look, he did not book tiem to spend any time with the children over the summer either. Weird that huh?


Goodness, you just don't get it do you. The OP is a REFUSER. So I guess we can completely overlook that and blame everything onto the OP's husband. When your wife is a REFUSER that breeds RESENTMENT. I don't know how much more I can dumb that down for you.


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## oldshirt

She's not necessarily a "refuser" and I don't think it's fair to label her as such without hearing from either him or her that she actually refuses his advances.

What's being described here is a lack of connection and a mutual building of resentment. 

She said in her opening couple sentences is that they have far different perspectives on what family and parenthood/fatherhood represent. I think this is the root and crux of the problem - not that she is "refusing" sex.


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## Jessica38

Yes, it sounds to me like she's not getting her needs met in this marriage either. Husband is living independently of his wife and family. That needs to change.


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## oldshirt

He is a partner in a law firm and member of a performing band. 

I assuming he is getting paid for these gigs, so it's not like he is a gamer on the couch.

He is provider. 

In his perspective, he probably thinks he is great father and husband as he is bringing home lots of money and material resources.

He likely cannot understand her resentment and probably thinks she is a bit of a beeotch. 

This is a "Love Language" issue and not really an issue of maltreatment or bad behavior.

Her Love Language is likely acts of service and probably more specifically - acts of service for the family.

He sees his time and energy at work and at band gigs as self-serving escapism and being away from the family.

He likely sees at as bringing home the bacon and providing for the family. He also likely sees her as ungrateful and unappreciative.

He spent several years in undergrad, server all years in law school, several years as jr associate and has now made partner and is bringing home serious bank and yet she *****es he doesn't change enough diapers or make many doctors appointments. 

His band gigs brings in even more bank but she sees it as dumping friends and playing at pretending to be a rock star. 

The lack of sexuality does play into this big time but it's not as simple as her refusing and him feeling frustrated. It's a mutual lack of connection and compatibility and chemistry.

Her idea of connection is shoulder-to-shoulder coparenting.

His is likely traditional roles as father bringing home the meat. 

While there is no maltreatment or bad behavior/character flaws in this scenario and there is no good guy and no bad guy. This marriage is at DefCon 1.

This will require joint marital counseling and marital therapy to resolve, if it can even be resolved.

Individual counseling/therapy IMHO will be deleterious as each persons therapist will work with them to assert their own agenda and pursue their own interests and assert their own boundaries.

For this marriage to survive their must be mutual concessions and compromises and working jointly.


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## oldshirt

Jessica38 said:


> Yes, it sounds to me like she's not getting her needs met in this marriage either. Husband is living independently of his wife and family. That needs to change.


That's not a fair assertion either.

He is bringing in serious bank in his activities and providing the family a very comfortable lifestyle.

She has not said that he is neglectful or abandoning - just that he is not doing the same things she is.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

jb02157 said:


> Goodness, you just don't get it do you. The OP is a REFUSER. So I guess we can completely overlook that and blame everything onto the OP's husband. When your wife is a REFUSER that breeds RESENTMENT. I don't know how much more I can dumb that down for you.


 LOL, even if she was, he has no issue making her the primary parent, taking care of most of the home and children, plus she works a job of her own. You think giving him sex would also make him a parent as well and the issues could be just solved that way. He does not even make time for the children.

The fact is that you also assume she just stop having sex out of nowhere. It is also possible that he neglected her and the children for his music, spending little tiem as a husband and father and she had to withdraw from intimacy to protect herself. And what if she just gives him sex and he still is an absentee father and husband, what would that do to her self worth.

LOL, look at you ignoring the fact that he is not an involved parent. I admire your single-mindedness thinking all the issues stem from you believing she is a refuser when a possible catalyst is he started neglecting her first. He is a rejecter then. What And... he also rejects his children. You see, that is something consistent with how he treats her and the children.

LOL, she tried making tiem for them as a couple but you failed to notice that as well. So she is suppose to give him what he wants or what you think he wants while he gives so little in return. Again, him being a sh*tty father has litle to do with him getting litle sex from her. Or you plan on blaming the lack of sex with parental involvement. iIf that is the case, that speaks more to his character that he is NEGLECTING his children because of lack of sex. She is not getting someone that wants to spend tiem with her, help raise the children by being involved, keeping a home together and you do not see her stop from being a parent. It takes more than simply providing money to raise children. It takes involvement in their lives, the ability to communicate and give guidance. But hey, his career and music comes first I guess.

I can also make the assumption he is a neglectful person and that is why she does not want to have sex. Seeing how he neglects the children, I have a pretty good case. And if the catalyst is the lack of sex, it makes him look worse if he is punishing the children for the lackthereof. I bet if she was going out every weekend, spending little tiem at home, posters would assume she is cheating. LOL. So if your case proves to be true, his character should come into question why he is also punishing the children which you fail to put into your equation of this situation.

If the break down of this marriage started with her as the catalyst, I would recommend her see what her issues are. If he started neglecting her first, then giving him sex would not solve the problems because the behavior prior to the lack of sex stemmed from the neglectful behavior and sex would not help in that situation since he already neglected her when sex was a norm. Another question she must ask herself, if he is punishing the children for her actions, take a closer look at his character and is that the type of person she wants raising the children. If started rejecting him as a catalyst first, she should ask for how she can help to show she understands how her rejection has hurt him and ask if they can work together to help get pass this. What she needs to do to make him feel wanted. My advice is predicated on the entire picture and not stem from just lack of sex. She should also ask him why he has been a crappy father and to look at himself fif he also neglected the children because he was hurt.

Btw, you still have not explained why lack of sex makes him a crappy father. Again, the daughter notices the lack of involvement he has in her life. I don't know how much I can dumbed that down to your level. Great, he is a stranger to his children.


----------



## sokillme

Jessica38 said:


> If I were you, I'd contact Dr. Harley with Marriage Builders. He wrote His Needs, Her Needs and Lovebusters that explains how to meet each other's needs in marriage and how to avoid hurting our spouse's love for us.


Do you work for this guy?:scratchhead:


----------



## sokillme

momofthree42 said:


> Thanks for saying that, NotLettingGo. i think you are right. i am tired and i believe so is he. the issue is that in his therapy and time alone, he is becoming more and more angry at me and drawn away from me and the family life that i thought we both wanted. for example, this afternoon he took my daughter (9) to her softball game (its a playoff game so one of the last of the season) this is the first game that he has been to. she was so excited that he was coming, but when they got home she told me that he was on his phone the whole time and didnt see her play (she did say that he could hear the game). i didnt dare to say anything to him, but am really hurt by this for her.
> 
> i;ve been reading a lot of articles and books about how to save a marriage. they all say the same thing - prioritize the marriage, worrry less about being right and more about being together, listen and make your spouse feel heard and seen. i am really trying to take that advice, but it is being met with anger and resentment, so its hard to keep trying. everything that he does says that this marriage is not important to him and neither am i. he told me that he 'cares about me' and thinks 'i am a good person.' but that is about as much positive emotion that he can draw up for me. everything else is negative.
> 
> Also as i mentioned, he is a musician (as well as a partner in a large law firm) and has recently made himself busier with gigs and rehearsals,so he;s out at least twice a week. last week he sent me a list of gigs that he has booked for the summer. there were gigs on every weekend through the end of the summer - with the exception of a couple of weekends that we are planning to be out of town. i convinced him to see if he could reschedule some of the saturday night gigs to friday nights so we could have our usual date night with our friends. he reluctantly agreed and reached out to the venue. now they are not getting back to him and he is convinced that he has lost all the gigs because of me.
> 
> i am startig to think that maybe i would be better off leaving this marriage. i would hate to tear my family apart for my kids sake, but it is not healthy for them to see us like this. my reluctance to leave is also compounded by the fact that i ma a 42-year-old mother of three. not exactly the ideal mate for someone new!


Sounds like he is done. You are both at fault but one of you has to make the change. Since you are on here I say you do it, see if it softens him up, if not then decided what you are going to do. If he was on here I would tell him to do it. Most men need sex, it's how they connect emotionally. This stuff is always "The chicken or the egg" situation but that really doesn't matter to solve the problem.


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## soccermom2three

momofthree42 said:


> furthermore, he does not lnitiating sex with me. he would rather that i am the one who iniatiates. and to be honest, given that i am the one iniating all the other areas of our life, i would like for him to desire me in the bedroom. it


Doesn't look she's a refuser to me.


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## oldshirt

You can't judge a father by how good or bad of a mother he is. 

And you can't judge a high-powered, professional career man by what kind of a chick he is. 

When you break it down to it's core, her complaints are he works all the time, he doesn't hover over the kids like she does and that they don't have an emotional/sexual connection. 

The first two are just part and parcel of being a lawyer/musician and being a dude.

The connection is probably largely due to lack of understanding and appreciation and respect for the commitment and contribution of the other. 

She basically wanting to raise kids with another mother but still wanting to have some romantic and sexual connection as well.

The problem is she married and had children with a driven, high-power professional career man and dedicated musician.

She was drawn to his strength and ambition and drive - but then wanted him to turn into a chick and a co-mother once the kids came.

I thinks we all can safely assume he won't turn into another mother.

Her options are some serious MC where they can reach some compromises and concessions and learn to work as a team where the players have different roles and each respects and appreciates the roles and contributions of the other.

Or get a divorce, take the child support and either find a beta male that will change diapers and take kids to their doctors appointments or move in with another single mother and co-mother together.


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## momofthree42

Thank you all for your replies. definitely helpful to get (annonymous) points of view. to clarify a few points... 

i am definitely not a refuser. as a result of our therapy last year, our therapist tole me that i should be the one iniatiating sex wiht him bacause he was feeling so rejected. i spent 6 months iniating sex with him and he probably responded postivvely to my advances only 50 percent of the time. he has not iniatiated sex with me in approximately 3 years. 

and regarding the (lack of) division of labor in our home, i do not expect him to change all the diapers or go to the grocery store. what i do expect is that he is actively involved in the kids lives and sharing the same vision of family life as me. thats where the bereakdown is. 

and finally, yes, i do work and have a pretty demanding career. i dont want to make this about money or prestige, but i am an accomplished professional (MBA, VP in large international company) so while we do have help at home, i make the time to be present in the kids life. i dont do it because i think i should, but rather i do it because i want to and there is nothing more important to me that my family. he is sending me the signals that he doesnt want to and thats whats most painful.


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## Jessica38

sokillme said:


> Do you work for this guy?:scratchhead:


Ha! No, I just follow his work and know that he helps couples with similar issues. I think he's the best resource for those who want to actually save their marriages. I can give my own opinion here on TAM all I want, but since I'm not actually an expert at saving marriages, I try to recommend his resources for those who want to do so. He's helped me personally in my own marriage, which by most counts is very good, but we had an issue come up that stumped me, and his advice really helped us both. So I try to pay it forward


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## oldshirt

momofthree42 said:


> r i do it because i want to and there is nothing more important to me that my family. he is sending me the signals that he doesnt want to and thats whats most painful.



This is where you might be making a big mistake.

You may be judging his family and parental investment and commitment because he does not parent the way you do.

Just because he parents vastly different does not necessarily mean that his love and devotion are lacking.

In football the roles of quarterback and linebacker are vastly different, yet each vitally important to the team. You can't judge the linebacker by his ability to throw deep passes and you can't judge a quarterback by his ability to shrug off the block 300lb offensive guard and tackle a 230 lb running back at full sprint. 



This is why I advocate MC rather than IC in your case. 

IC will of advocate asserting your own boundaries and pursuing your own interests.

However MC may help you recognize and appreciate each other's strengths and weaknesses and work in concert with each other so you both win the game by playing different positions with different roles.


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## Jessica38

oldshirt said:


> That's not a fair assertion either.
> 
> He is bringing in serious bank in his activities and providing the family a very comfortable lifestyle.
> 
> She has not said that he is neglectful or abandoning - just that he is not doing the same things she is.


This isn't fair either. The OP works hard as well to provide for the family. This does not mean she is entitled to schedule a hobby that takes her out of town on the weekends, even if it does bring in extra money, without her spouse's agreement. If she did, she would be living independently in her marriage.

OP, I highly suggest reading His Needs, Her Needs. It covers that what you are dealing with is Independent Behavior in marriage. Most associate attorney's I know work like dogs. To add weekends away to an already maxed-out week means that he is not able to spend much time with you and the family. This is likely not a situation you ever agreed to. It's an arrangement that I know I would never agree to either.

When you get married, you trade certain freedoms for the needs of your spouse and family. Family commitment is a HUGE need for many women, and it sounds like her husband is not meeting that need. In His Needs, Her Needs, Dr. Harley recommends that spouses spend 15 hours a week dating their spouse, and another 15 hours a week of Family Time. After that, you're free to pursue your own hobbies, but it doesn't leave much time for things like out of town band performances, which is something that likely needs to go if this marriage is going to survive.


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## oldshirt

momofthree42 said:


> our therapist tole me that i should be the one iniatiating sex wiht him bacause he was feeling so rejected. i spent 6 months iniating sex with him and he probably responded postivvely to my advances only 50 percent of the time. he has not iniatiated sex with me in approximately 3 years.


This brings up a separate concern. 

With This kind of lackadaisical attitude towards sex in an otherwise healthy adult male, it would be wise to do an honest investigation (meaning, don't just ask him) into the possibility of him getting elsewhere.

I am sure there are lots of young, sexy, little thingys just throwing themselves at him. 

You would be remiss to not thoroughly investigate whether he is taking them up on it. If he is, it would explain many things and answer many questions.


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## Jessica38

oldshirt said:


> This brings up a separate concern.
> 
> With This kind of lackadaisical attitude towards sex in an otherwise healthy adult male, it would be wise to do an honest investigation (meaning, don't just ask him) into the possibility of him getting elsewhere.
> 
> I am sure there are lots of young, sexy, little thingys just throwing themselves at him.
> 
> You would be remiss to not thoroughly investigate whether he is taking them up on it. If he is, it would explain many things and answer many questions.


This is a very good point and I can't believe I didn't think of it sooner. Your husband's lack of interest in sex with you is a red flag, OP.


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## MartinBeck

momofthree42 said:


> Thank you all for your replies. definitely helpful to get (annonymous) points of view. to clarify a few points...
> 
> 
> 
> i am definitely not a refuser. as a result of our therapy last year, our therapist tole me that i should be the one iniatiating sex wiht him bacause he was feeling so rejected. i spent 6 months iniating sex with him and he probably responded postivvely to my advances only 50 percent of the time. he has not iniatiated sex with me in approximately 3 years.
> 
> 
> 
> what i do expect is that he is actively involved in the kids lives and sharing the same vision of family life as me. thats where the bereakdown is.



So for a long time up until a year ago you were a refuser, and it was such a problem that it came up in therapy as him feeling rejected. And now you feel the marriage slipping away and he is often rejecting your initiations. It's highly likely that he is just so burnt and hurt by the historical pattern of past rejections by you that he's so resentful that he won't initiate.

If you want to save your marriage, keep initiating and understand that you dug yourself a deep hole and you're going to have to dig yourself out.

And when you say "share the same vision of family life", I'll bet he hears "changing goalposts and never ending set of demands around unnecessary over-the-top kid stuff and house crap that's just not as important as adult life"

Answer 3 questions for me:
1) How often do you have sex? Is it good? Do you get into it?

2) Do you have specific concrete list of things that would demonstrate "shared vision of family life"? Does he know what those are? Do you? How would you know when some change he makes is "good enough"? 

3) You say he's becoming more distant and withdrawing from you. You've got a list of behaviors you want him to change ... What do you think he would want you to start doing to help the marriage? How do you think he would characterize the marriage?


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## Spitfire

Martin is spot on with this response. I'd bet this is exactly what transpired.


----------



## MartinBeck

Jessica38 said:


> This is a very good point and I can't believe I didn't think of it sooner. Your husband's lack of interest in sex with you is a red flag, OP.




No, it's because she refused him for years and years and he isn't going to initiate any more because she hurt him so badly and doesn't trust her not to reject him more.


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## Red Sonja

And again, the projection and lack of reading comprehension skills demonstrated on this thread is _staggering_. And, _very _unhelpful to the OP.


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## MartinBeck

Jessica38 said:


> In His Needs, Her Needs, Dr. Harley recommends that spouses spend 15 hours a week dating their spouse, and another 15 hours a week of Family Time.



I would place strong odds that for a very long period during the marriage she refused to spend any time with him "dating him" doing adult husband and wife non-kid-friendly things, because it would be time away from the kids. 

She clearly prioritized the kids over the marriage for a very long time. So it's sort of reasonable for him to basically be starting to dump her, because he's always last place in her priorities, and for so long she just wasn't that into him.


----------



## MartinBeck

Red Sonja said:


> And again, the projection and lack of reading comprehension skills demonstrated on this thread is _staggering_. And, _very _unhelpful to the OP.




Agreed. The key issue is that he's probably leaving her and she's freaking out. She needs to decide if "being right" is more important than her making some changes in behavior and expectations and staying married. 
We don't have him here to talk some sense into, only her.


----------



## Red Sonja

Red Sonja said:


> And again, the projection and lack of reading comprehension skills demonstrated on this thread is _staggering_. And, _very _unhelpful to the OP.





MartinBeck said:


> Agreed. The key issue is that he's probably leaving her and she's freaking out. She needs to decide if "being right" is more important than her making some changes in behavior and expectations and staying married.
> We don't have him here to talk some sense into, only her.


Ahem, I was speaking (mostly) of *YOU *and @oldshirt with that quote.


----------



## Stang197

MartinBeck said:


> Jessica38 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In His Needs, Her Needs, Dr. Harley recommends that spouses spend 15 hours a week dating their spouse, and another 15 hours a week of Family Time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would place strong odds that for a very long period during the marriage she refused to spend any time with him "dating him" doing adult husband and wife non-kid-friendly things, because it would be time away from the kids.
> 
> She clearly prioritized the kids over the marriage for a very long time. So it's sort of reasonable for him to basically be starting to dump her, because he's always last place in her priorities, and for so long she just wasn't that into him.
Click to expand...


Sounds reasonable to me.


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## momofthree42

Again, i really appreciate everyone's replies. some of them are hard to read, but helpful and honest nonetheless. so things continue to be horrible. we had a weekend of trying to keep it together. he played a gig on friday night, played tennis on saturday morning, saturday afternoon adn sunday monring, and i hung out with my kids the whole weekend. we did go to dinner with a few friends on saturday night and he got to hang out wiht his friends, got drunk and had me drive him home so he could pass out. in the meantime, our baby is a bit under the weather , so she has been waking up during the night. obviously i am the one taking care of her and when she makes even a peep or a whine, he gets pissed - mostly at me. 

i mentioned that my husband scheduled all these gigs for the whole summer. after we argued about this a couple of weeks ago, he agreed to request a few changes in the schedule. not that the venue hasnt gottten back to him, he is convinced that it is my fault - i convinced him to request the changes and now he has rubbed them the wrong way, and they no longer want him to play there. he has been sending me nasty texts ('i am sick over this and completely devastated') ('i should have never listened to you') and this afternoon it culminated into us being at our friends (yes, we are both friends with the couple). him sitting there in silence just glaring at me with a nasty look on his face. then when our baby (2) started to cry, he lost his temper,yelled at me and wanted me to take her home. i said she was fine and that we should eat dinner and then take her home when everyone was done. he then went into the other room and pouted like a little baby. it was so obvious and embarrasing. he was pouting and totally having a pitty party. finally, before we had even eaten, i said it was enough, gathered the kids and said that we should leave. he just stormed out of the house and left. left me with two of the three kids, all our stuff (we were swmming at their house), and came home to drop off my older daughter, take a shower and leave. i have no idea where he is, or when he's coming home. 

i think this is it. 

and i think i am ready to be out of this relationship. he has made it so clear to me that he values himself over our family and our marriage. his individual therapy is taking him further and futher away from this relationship. he has surrounded himself wiht anger and a one sided narriative that positions him as the victim.


----------



## Primrose

momofthree42 said:


> i mentioned that my husband scheduled all these gigs for the whole summer. after we argued about this a couple of weeks ago, he agreed to request a few changes in the schedule. not that the venue hasnt gottten back to him, he is convinced that it is my fault - i convinced him to request the changes and now he has rubbed them the wrong way, and they no longer want him to play there. he has been sending me nasty texts ('i am sick over this and completely devastated') ('i should have never listened to you') and this afternoon it culminated into us being at our friends (yes, we are both friends with the couple). him sitting there in silence just glaring at me with a nasty look on his face. then when our baby (2) started to cry, he lost his temper,yelled at me and wanted me to take her home. i said she was fine and that we should eat dinner and then take her home when everyone was done. he then went into the other room and pouted like a little baby. it was so obvious and embarrasing. he was pouting and totally having a pitty party. finally, before we had even eaten, i said it was enough, gathered the kids and said that we should leave. he just stormed out of the house and left. left me with two of the three kids, all our stuff (we were swmming at their house), and came home to drop off my older daughter, take a shower and leave. i have no idea where he is, or when he's coming home.


Truth be told, it sounds like you have a 4th child on your hands with his temper tantrums.


----------



## aine

jb02157 said:


> I get the feeling, here, that if we asked the OP's husband for his version of this story we would get something completely different. Bottom line here is that the OP is a refuser so that's the cause of the breakdown in the marriage. So, she basically brought all of this on herself. I think her husband would have a completely different attitude toward her if she let sex return to the marriage. But no, she would rather build all this resentment and divorce him.
> 
> I highly encourage the OP to schedule a week vacation for just the two of them and stop being a refuser. He would have a totally different attitude, provided it's not not too late and his resentment of her would hinder saving the marriage.


Didn't you read what she wrote? She is NOT a refuser in fact she is the initiator the majority of times. Stop projecting your own marriage circumstances into hers and read what she writes!

I think her H knows that she is more inversted in the marriage and assumes she will be there forever. Maybe he needs a rude awakening. OP stop chasing him, let him see what he stands to lose.


----------



## aine

momofthree42 said:


> Again, i really appreciate everyone's replies. some of them are hard to read, but helpful and honest nonetheless. so things continue to be horrible. we had a weekend of trying to keep it together. he played a gig on friday night, played tennis on saturday morning, saturday afternoon adn sunday monring, and i hung out with my kids the whole weekend. we did go to dinner with a few friends on saturday night and he got to hang out wiht his friends, got drunk and had me drive him home so he could pass out. in the meantime, our baby is a bit under the weather , so she has been waking up during the night. obviously i am the one taking care of her and when she makes even a peep or a whine, he gets pissed - mostly at me.
> 
> i mentioned that my husband scheduled all these gigs for the whole summer. after we argued about this a couple of weeks ago, he agreed to request a few changes in the schedule. not that the venue hasnt gottten back to him, he is convinced that it is my fault - i convinced him to request the changes and now he has rubbed them the wrong way, and they no longer want him to play there. he has been sending me nasty texts ('i am sick over this and completely devastated') ('i should have never listened to you') and this afternoon it culminated into us being at our friends (yes, we are both friends with the couple). him sitting there in silence just glaring at me with a nasty look on his face. then when our baby (2) started to cry, he lost his temper,yelled at me and wanted me to take her home. i said she was fine and that we should eat dinner and then take her home when everyone was done. he then went into the other room and pouted like a little baby. it was so obvious and embarrasing. he was pouting and totally having a pitty party. finally, before we had even eaten, i said it was enough, gathered the kids and said that we should leave. he just stormed out of the house and left. left me with two of the three kids, all our stuff (we were swmming at their house), and came home to drop off my older daughter, take a shower and leave. i have no idea where he is, or when he's coming home.
> 
> i think this is it.
> 
> and i think i am ready to be out of this relationship. he has made it so clear to me that he values himself over our family and our marriage. his individual therapy is taking him further and futher away from this relationship. he has surrounded himself wiht anger and a one sided narriative that positions him as the victim.



Have you considered he might be cheating? Creating arguments and excuses to leave and disappearing for lengthy periods of time are a huge red flag?

Start to keep your eyes and ears open.


----------



## MartinBeck

Op -
We can advise you better if we have more info about the situation. Can you please answer:

1) How often do you two have sex?

2) What specific concrete behaviors do you want him to change? Be as specific as possible, not "be on the same page as me" which is asking him and us to both be mind readers.

3) What are you willing to change in your behaviors that is equally important to him? 

4) Also, what was the State of the Marriage when you decided to have the 3rd kid? If you were this unhappy with him already with kids 1&2, and he was so unhappy with how fatherhood was stealing time from the rest of his life, why a 3rd kid?


----------



## MartinBeck

soccermom2three said:


> Doesn't look she's a refuser to me.




That's not actually clear at. All we know is that in the past their lack of sex was "on her" by her own admission, and her prior refusals were a big enough issue to be raised in MC. OP needs to give us a lot more information about what past and present is going on in the bedroom. And OP's husband isn't here to tell us how happy he is with his sex life.


----------



## MartinBeck

aine said:


> Didn't you read what she wrote? She is NOT a refuser in fact she is the initiator the majority of times. Stop projecting your own marriage circumstances into hers and read what she writes!
> 
> 
> 
> I think her H knows that she is more inversted in the marriage and assumes she will be there forever. Maybe he needs a rude awakening. OP stop chasing him, let him see what he stands to lose.




No. She has admitted that they had no sex life and it was "on her". She has stated that up until a year ago she was the refuser, until it was a big enough issue to be discussed in MC. 

OP's first post was that she is worried her husband is going to leave her. He is going to IC that is letting him come to the realization (for better or for worse, realistic or not) that his needs are not being met in the marriage and that he is detaching and drifting away from her. In the bedroom, what I think is going on is that he was trained by her to never initiate and at this point doesn't trust her initiations either.

What all the "you go girl" posters are missing is that he's engaged in IC, which means he's probably getting feedback from a professional to start to value himself, to start to stand up for himself, and to start to prioritize what's important to him, instead of "go along to get along" which has gotten him a sexless marriage and a wife who has become 99% mom and endlessly prioritized with things he doesn't think are important and who is seemingly never going to be happy with what he brings to the marriage.

Although from OP's latest update, he's got a long, long ways to go in his IC journey. Nobody wants to bang a drunk guy holding a pity party for himself.

To give her advice that can save her marriage, we need to know 1) how often sex is happening, 2) can she come up with a few specific items that if he did would be a valid shown of effort from him, and 3) what she is willing to change on her part in order to stay married.

I think she will have a hell of a difficult time honestly answering these 3 questions.


----------



## momofthree42

Thanks Martin - to answer your questions 


1) How often do you two have sex? 

2) What specific concrete behaviors do you want him to change? Be as specific as possible, not "be on the same page as me" which is asking him and us to both be mind readers.

3) What are you willing to change in your behaviors that is equally important to him? 

4) Also, what was the State of the Marriage when you decided to have the 3rd kid? If you were this unhappy with him already with kids 1&2, and he was so unhappy with how fatherhood was stealing time from the rest of his life, why a 3rd kid?[/QUOTE

1. when things are good, we have sex 1 - 2 times per week. we have not been in that state for a while - a few years. again, we have three young kids. 

2. what behaviors do i want him to change? i would like for him to be more patient and engaged wiht the kids. he takes them (only the older two) out for pizza, to movies, etc, but does not sit down and talk to them or read them stories. they are both interested in learning to play musical instruments, and he has no interest in exploring that with them. we have a beautiful piano in our house and i hire a piano teacher to come to the house - he wont even sit with them when they practice. i would like him to help out more with things around the house. i know this sounds so petty, but he doesnt do anything - no picking up after himself, definitely not picking up after the kids. he doesnt even know how to fold the stroller or install a car seat - (after 9 years of being a parent) so i am managing all kids and their stuff - we all know how long it takes to get three kids out of the house and into the car to go someplace. i'd like for him to be more patient and understanding with the kids - they are pretty good listeners, but they are kid and often need to be asked or reminded to do things. he loses his patience wiht them very easily, which scares them. if i intervene, he then yells at me too. 

3. what am i willing to change that is important to him? i know that his main concerns are 1. that ihave been too critical of him and never seem satisfied with his efforts to help and 2. that i have taken the love that i had for him and placed it on the kids. i am trying to focus more on the positive things that he is and less on what he's not. (even though right now, the positives are very limited) i will praise him and express gratitude for his efforts, and be more affectionate with him - sexually and otherwise. 

4. at time of third kid, things were fine. we were in an okay groove. older kids were 4 and 6, so they were becoming a bit more 'independent' meaning they could go to the bathroom alone or get themselves a snack. we got pregnant somewhat accidentally while on a vacation to celebrate our combined 40th birthdays (first two kids were a result of several rounds of IVF and we conisidered trying for a third several years earlier, but doc advised against it.) when we got pregnant, we were both thrilled. as i mentioned, he adores the kids, but has a very short fuse with them when they act out. 

I think the fact that we are in the stage of parenting a baby and an almost tween at the same time is definitely making this harder. i am a very involved parent, but i also make time for us to have a relationship. we usually go on at least one or two vacations wihtout the kids per year. we go out (usually with friends) every weekend (not withstanding this summer of music), i work out 3 times a week, and i work full time in a fast-paced career. i read with my kids every night, talk to them about everything and i love watching them grow. i dont think my husband enjoys the 'journey' as much as the end result. i admit the journey is exhausting (especially on top of everything else we both have going on). i am moving from being sad, hurt and scared to being really pissed off. 

i know many people have posted that he may be cheating, and while i dont think he's the cheating type, i am on the lookout for that. but ore importantly i am sarting to think that although i will do anything to save this marriage and revive it ot a place of happiness, i cant do it alone. if he cant get over the drama that he is creating in his head and start to prioritize our family and our relationship over his own drama and self-interest, i think i may leave him,. its just not worth it.


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## Mr.Fisty

He is a pretty bad parent in my opinion. More than just financial, there are other aspects of parenthood.

Parents are suppose to help children explore aspects of themselves, discover what their children excel in, be a role model because a lot of behavior is learn through emulation by observing and listening. There is a reason why the brain develops rapidly while they are young. By exploring with the children what their strengths and weaknesses are, parents can take the necessary steps. The children do not just learn through you alone.

I am sure he loves his children but that does not make him parental material.

When I was 22 and living with a roommate at the time, he had a daughter. The only way he fed her was buying her fast food, and when his child was around, I fed her the other half of the time because he simply neglected her. She was 4 year-old and still wearing diapers because he did not want or was willing to teach her. Her mother was the one who read to her regularly, cooked her meals, taught her her numbers and letters. Apparently most of her behavioral problems was when she was with her father. I think she was seeking his attention. LOL, he also did not pick up after himself and I eventually kicked him out and sent him back to live with his mother. There was literal garbage on the floor that he did not pick up and there was a lot of dirt on the carpet. His daughter slept in that room when he had his daughter and he let her live in filth. Love and simply providing a place to live is still crappy parenting. If I had known how bad his room was, I would have never let him rent a room from me. ARgh, thinking about how he never washed his own dishes, cleaned after his own child. Several tiems he asked me to drop his daughter at his mother's or he simply did not care to pick her up at his ex's home. Funny that, after his ex broke up with him and moved on, she had a better life. Damn, thinking about it, I now feel like I was taking care or making up some of his lack of parenting .

Children need guidance, role models, involved parents for them to learn how to operate in society, instill in them lessons in morality.

I have a nephew and his stepfather taught him how to use tools since age 5. He learned from his stepfather how to build model cars and he is only 6 years-old currently. My sister teaches him how to read and write. They both are stern authority figures. Both of them made my nephew clean and taught him why he should put away his toys. He has only been a stepfather for my nephew for a couple of years and he is more involved in his stepson's life. When my nephew reaches 8, he plans on taking him fishing and later on camping and stuff. My nephew at age 6 is also helping his stepfather build actual cars. LOL, my nephew knows more about tools than I do but it is something my nephew enjoys and excels in. He cries when he knows he has disappointed his mother and stepfather. My sister enjoys cooking and art as hobbies and well, her hhusband also has his independent hobbies which he spends a lot of time with my nephew. They both still have their couple time once a week where My BIL'' father will watch my nephew. That is what an involved parent can help their child with, reach higher potential.

I just want to show an example of good parenting vs bad parenting. Lucky you are around or the children will probably live in filth. It was pretty awkward living with my then roommate and having his daughter just scream in outburst and he screams right back. I wonder where she learned that from.

As for your relationship, not much of one. If you did not make the time or encourage him to make the time, the only interaction is when sex does occur. Face it, even if sex does occur, there is not much of the emotional bonding aspect of sex due to the lack of quality time. You both are somewhat strangers to one another. The ties that bind you two together is you have children together, and you live together. There is little interaction, working together towards common goals. He is pretty much living a separate life. Sex will not fix your relationship because there is not much of a relationship to build upon. Sex can be an expression of love but without much of a relationship, it is simply just sex, something to get off on or use one another to reach an orgasm to scratch that itch.

My advice is to seek what you want in a mate, leave the children with him if you have to and find time for yourself. Force him to be home with the children on his own once in a while. Even if you love him, he and you both may not be simply compatible. He may want to be a father, to pass on his genetic legacy but other than financial support, he may not simply want to be a dad, a parental figure which is an aspect of parental guidance. Can you live with that and if it is a must that he also parent as well, could you leave him if he cannot be an actual parent, to make time on his own initiative to spend time with you instead of you doing all you can to have an actual relationship. It really is a shallow relationship without a deep connection.

You have already tried for an entire year initiating sex with a 50% success rate and he has not tried to meet you in the middle for what you need for when you were trying. That solution has failed. You cannot make the other want to give in return. Listen, I suggest you stop trying to set up dates, vacation time with him. You stated talking has gotten you nowhere, you trying to meet his needs has gotten you nowhere, that is just simply the reality of your situation. You cannot make him try. You need your own independent life. Go out with your own friends instead of going on dates with him. If it is only going to cause you pain to have someone not interested in spending time with you, you need to stop that habit. If it does end up in divorce or separation, help yourself by reaching the mental and emotional state to make that decision. 

You can only make the decision on the basis that he is going to stay the way he is, going to behave the way he is currently. He is no longer his past self and that is something you need to accept. I cannot make the claim that he will never change but it is safe to assume he will continue to be who he is currently. You are the one chasing his love and affection and once in a while, he might let you catch him, give you and the children crumbs of his attention and affection. Next time, learn to communicate in a relationship. Set time aside to let you and a partner know whether your needs are being met, and if not how you can compromise. Communication and actual participation in a relationship lets both know where the other is at, whether eachother is content in the relationship. Turn off the TV, put the children to sleep and just talk about the two of you without any distraction. This is a tool for you to use. It will not work in your current relationship because he has shut you out, place barriers between the two of you. That is why there is no point in trying. You cannot build a connection when the other is blocking you from trying. You want to try and repair things, he does not. You both are at odds at what you want and I am basing that on his actions. The fact you want to spend more time with him, you want him to be involved in the children's life and he does the exact opposite is communication enough.


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## turnera

Absurdist said:


> Mom3 - very gently... you said that sex life is non-existent and mostly by you. This is the 900 lb gorilla in the room. Until you and he address this issue you are whistling through the graveyard. In his mind absence of a sex life is 99% of the marriage. Everything else in your marriage branches off of this issue.


The OTHER gorilla in the room is that he is a User and you are a Giver and so he has rewritten your marriage so that YOU take all the blame, more or less BEG him to stay married to you, and are so browbeaten that you can't even discuss him not watching the daughter at the softball game. If you're that afraid to discuss such a simple matter, there is a lot more going on than you realize. And the fact that he's a high-powered lawyer only solidifies things.

Please read this book and come back and tell us what you think.


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## turnera

MartinBeck said:


> Why is what you want to do, the date night with "our" (read: your) friends, more important than what he wants to do?


Maybe if he didn't plan EVERY weekend through the entire summer to do what HE wants, you might have a point.


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## turnera

MartinBeck said:


> He's going to come home on Saturday nights this summer after hanging out with your friends and being refused sex by you and start becoming even more resentful that he can't even go to his band gigs.
> He really should have stood up for himself and refused to reschedule the gigs.


Maybe if he didn't plan the whole summer for what he wants, she would WANT to have sex with him.


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## turnera

jb02157 said:


> I get the feeling, here, that if we asked the OP's husband for his version of this story we would get something completely different. Bottom line here is that the OP is a refuser so that's the cause of the breakdown in the marriage.


As if.


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## turnera

jb02157 said:


> Goodness, you just don't get it do you. The OP is a REFUSER.


And the husband is absent, controlling, and demanding.


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## turnera

oldshirt said:


> That's not a fair assertion either.
> 
> He is bringing in serious bank in his activities and providing the family a very comfortable lifestyle.
> 
> She has not said that he is neglectful or abandoning - just that he is not doing the same things she is.


He went to his daughter's softball game for the FIRST time - and was on the phone the entire time. Enough so that it upset the daughter.


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## turnera

MartinBeck said:


> And when you say "share the same vision of family life", I'll bet he hears "changing goalposts and never ending set of demands around unnecessary over-the-top kid stuff and house crap that's just not as important as adult life"


Right. Like those silly pesky things like watching a child in their sport, or playing catch with your kid, or playing a board game with them, or - heaven forbid - attending a school play or a doctor's appointment. You know, the things NO parent ever expected to happen and just keep showing up in those ever-changing goalposts. When he SHOULD be more concerned with the adult life - like performing in a band every weekend so he can be adored by the groupies instead of having to deal with that boring house crap like a wife and kids.


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## Jessica38

turnera said:


> And the husband is absent, controlling, and demanding.


And entitled and selfish.


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## MartinBeck

It seems you have a legit concern around his involvement with the kids. If you have a piano at home and he's a musician, and he hasn't ever done anything with the kids and the piano that seems like a big red flag.

The reality is that a lot of kids sports, school plays, etc are boring as hell and you sit and suffer through them because that's what you have to do. And you really definitely don't actually have to go to all of them - you pick and choose the important ones if you have conflicts between work and kids and hobbies because life is not all about the kids.

But if his thing is music and he doesn't try to engage with the kids, that's sad.


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## turnera

If you separate, one of two things will happen re: the kids. He'll either start cherishing the kids and giving them quality time when he has them, or he'll just dump them as too much work. The first would of course be great for the kids. But the second would be good, too - because then they would get to move on emotionally from seeing him every day and KNOWING he doesn't want to spend time with them. That's a source of pain all in itself. If he just disappears, they'll go through the stages of grief, hopefully, and then be able to readjust their lives to life without him and fill their lives with something else.


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## MartinBeck

So OP:

1) You were having sex 1-2 weekly but that was years ago. What has sex life been since pregnancy with #3? What frequency in the past six months? It seems like he was saying this was a very big deal in previous MC. Most men have a key "His Need" for sex from their wives. If this isn't happening he will continue feeling justified in leaving you, and most TAM posters would be cheering him on.

2) These are vague and I can see him saying that they are moving targets and you are never happy. You can define "patient and engaged" in many different ways. I think poster Oldshirt and I are both trying to say that it's ok that Moms and Dads to have different standards and expectations and levels of involvement. 

Come up with 3-5 (at most!) extremely specific things that he could do over the next two months that would be evidence he's committed to making improvements. E.g. "For the next six weeks Take out the trash to the curb on trash night without me asking or having to remind you". "Attend the summer camp parents day. Be there on time"
Google "S.M.A.R.T. Goals". Pick a few that are key to you, but that have clear "met/not-met" targets. Discuss with him a small set of achievable, realistic goals, come to an agreement on them, and then don't hound him on other things. 

3) Are you willing to go to his band gigs more often? 

Are you willing to come up with a handful of SMART goals for him as per above and control your instincts and not pressure him to do more than that? 

Has he asked you in the past to do things that you've said no to because of kids? Would you start doing them? Would you agree to maybe a regular weekday date night without the kids, or go to the gym together on Sat morning without the kids? 

Are you willing to seriously up the frequency of sex? Put a repeating calendar reminder on your phone for yourself to have PIV or give him a BJ? More adventurous things in the bedroom? Come up with some SMART goals for yourself, or better ask him. 

You should make a real effort to figure out what he wants out of marriage and what would get him to reconsider leaving you. It may be that he just doesn't care if you "praise him and express gratitude". That may not be one of his "love languages". Maybe he wants more quality time with you, or more or different sex, or for you to put more effort into your appearance, or treat him with respect more, or something else. If you go back into MC, dig into this. Dig into it on your own as much as you can. 

He's clearly very angry and resentful to you, but your posts haven't addressed the Why of this very much. You better make the effort to really understand why he is so angry with you if you want to work with him to get him over that and stay married. 

4. Do you think that he may have felt that sex on that vacation was a ploy to get a 3rd kid? Like the only reason sex was happing was for you to get pregnant again and then as soon as you got the next baby that it was shut off and he was being put back in the role of being the cash wallet that never makes you happy? 

It sounds like he may have been frustrated and unhappy with you when the other two were younger, and just starting to finally see some light at the end of the tunnel about finally getting his wife back from her descent into mommy martyrdom, and then all of a sudden a new baby is on the way.

What's the plan for avoiding a 4th? Have you talked to him about a vasectomy or getting your tubes tied?


Finally, I think you and many other posters are talking about your decision to leave him. 

But it is very likely that it won't be your choice and that he is working through his anger and his resentment with his IC and may well leave you first. You need to do something different than what you are currently doing if that is not what you want.


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## x598

i wonder if his lack of involvement with her and the kids, his busy summer schedule.....is him doing the 180 on HER. OP has stated she thinks he is getting ready to leave her and the gut can be very powerful (albeit not always right). 

this is one case where i would love to hear the other side of the story.


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## turnera

To those who keep harping on her unwillingness to have sex with him, as if that was 90% of the reason the marriage is off the rails (as some of you so often do), let's remember:


> we have always fought a lot
> the past few years have been increasingly stressful, with growing careers, kids, etc.
> I cry every day. I remain committed to our marriage. I am hurt and have a lot of resentment toward him, but am willing to do whatever I can to fix this.
> He is focusing on all the ways that he has been hurt and 'abused' throughout our marriage.
> he adores our children, but has a short temper and limited patience
> he wont even grill burgers when we have company
> I get up early every morning with the kids and put them to bed every night. (and I work long hours - roughly 9 - 10 hours every weekday)
> I have tried (for years) to ask him for more help with this stuff, but mostly this has ended in fights.
> When he does pitch in, he sees it as helping ME
> He is a highly intense person – has a short temper and a lot of anger.
> He tends to lash out at me when he is under pressure at work, with his family, music, etc.
> He says that I am a nag and too demanding and have made him feel that no matter what he does, I will never be happy, so he has basically given up.
> I can understand why he feels that way (from his perspective), but also don’t think that he is taking into consideration how much pain I have been in over the past 10 years (we struggled with infertility for our first two kids, had two miscarriages and lost a twin at 5 months into the pregnancy). During that time, I also was failing at work and almost got fired from my ‘dream job’. So that period of 5+ years was very painful for me and although I think he thought he was supporting me, I still felt alone.
> I am trying to give him his space (which he has asked for).


We can argue all day long that women should give it up if they want their man to want them. But the man has a responsibility too - to NOT use his wife as a verbal punching bag. To NOT leave her to do 90% of all family work, including hosting his own family. To NOT let her be the only one getting the kids up and putting them to bed. Every day. To actually spend time with the kids he helped bring into the world. She's making steps to try to save the marriage. He is not. I'd guess it's just not fun anymore and, yes, he's not getting as much sex as he thinks he deserves. 

Does he feel resentful? I'm sure he does. As SHE does. But given that he has willingly stepped back and left her feeling abandoned, on her own, basically a single parent, for TEN years, through the loss of a child and other issues, I can't imagine that just saying give it up more is a viable solution.


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## oldshirt

I can't speak for the OP's husband, but if my wife had to download an app to remind her to have sex or that it was time to give me a BJ, that would be the game-over moment right there.


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## MartinBeck

I think we really need OP to address more why husband has started IC and why "he is focusing on all the ways he has been hurt and 'abused' throughout our marriage".

She had struggles with infertility and miscarriage but now she's got the 3 kids she wanted. What went so wrong from his perspective and why he still so angry and resentful? 

I really still think we are missing a big part of the story. OP is glossing over or not disclosing some things around sex (yep, sex!) or something else big that has caused him to enter IC and plan his exit.


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## MartinBeck

turnera said:


> To those who keep harping on her unwillingness to have sex with him, as if that was 90% of the reason the marriage is off the rails (as some of you so often do), let's remember:
> 
> 
> We can argue all day long that women should give it up if they want their man to want them. But the man has a responsibility too - to NOT use his wife as a verbal punching bag. To NOT leave her to do 90% of all family work, including hosting his own family. To NOT let her be the only one getting the kids up and putting them to bed. Every day. To actually spend time with the kids he helped bring into the world. She's making steps to try to save the marriage. He is not. I'd guess it's just not fun anymore and, yes, he's not getting as much sex as he thinks he deserves.
> 
> Does he feel resentful? I'm sure he does. As SHE does. But given that he has willingly stepped back and left her feeling abandoned, on her own, basically a single parent, for TEN years, through the loss of a child and other issues, I can't imagine that just saying give it up more is a viable solution.




Maybe he tried putting them to bed or engage and be a dad at the beginning and was always attacked for not doing it "right", not doing it her way, and instead of him manning up and telling her that her way isn't the only way, and pushing her to give up her control, he let himself get browbeaten and just gave up and said the hell with it. 

That happens a lot. Maybe that's where some of his resentment comes from, who knows?


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## Red Sonja

MartinBeck said:


> *THEY *had struggles with infertility and miscarriage but now *THEY HAVE *the 3 kids *THEY *wanted.


Fixed that for ya ... read more carefully will ya?





MartinBeck said:


> I really still think we are missing a big part of the story. OP is glossing over or not disclosing some things around sex (yep, sex!) or something else big that has caused him to enter IC and plan his exit.
> 
> Maybe he tried putting them to bed or engage and be a dad at the beginning and was always attacked for not doing it "right", not doing it her way, and instead of him manning up and telling her that her way isn't the only way, and pushing her to give up her control, he let himself get browbeaten and just gave up and said the hell with it.


:slap:

Man, you are like a dog with a bone. Why are you intent on making up stories based on facts not in evidence? Marriage is not a Man vs. Woman relationship rather it is a cooperative relationship. Assigning blame helps no one.

We at TAM are here to help the OP if we are able. Badgering her with made up crap is not helping her. Why not ask questions if you need more information … instead of accusing her of lying by omission and spinning stories with your vivid imagination.


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## MartinBeck

Red Sonja said:


> Fixed that for ya ... read more carefully will ya?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :slap:
> 
> 
> 
> Man, you are like a dog with a bone. Why are you intent on making up stories based on facts not in evidence? Marriage is not a Man vs. Woman relationship rather it is a cooperative relationship. Assigning blame helps no one.
> 
> 
> 
> We at TAM are here to help the OP if we are able. Badgering her with made up crap is not helping her. Why not ask questions if you need more information … instead of accusing her of lying by omission and spinning stories with your vivid imagination.




I've been the only one asking OP questions, I believe. She's been answering, I've been polite, and I don't think I'm badgering her. 

I'm asking her more about what's going on in the bedroom recently. But more importantly asking her to do a bit of hard work about trying to come up with a small list of things that are really important to her, and think hard about what she could do to keep him from leaving her. 

Her husband isn't here to tell us what the heck he's thinking and why he's doing what he's doing and why he's so angry. If he was here I'd "badger" him too most likely. It sounds like OP doesn't really have good answers for why he's doing what he's doing and why he's so angry that he's planning with his therapist to leave her. I think that's the part we need more info on. 


It would be great for OP to invite hubby in to read this thread and comment but we generally don't get that lucky around here.


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## MartinBeck

The "husband just gives up because he's never right" dysfunctional is very real and is being actively discussed in another thread.

Husbands, Is This The Best Way for Wives to Get Their Needs Met in Marriage?

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...iage.com/showthread.php?t=384338&share_type=t


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## x598

> Man, you are like a dog with a bone. Why are you intent on making up stories based on facts not in evidence? Marriage is not a Man vs. Woman relationship rather it is a cooperative relationship. Assigning blame helps no one.
> 
> We at TAM are here to help the OP if we are able. Badgering her with made up crap is not helping her. Why not ask questions if you need more information … instead of accusing her of lying by omission and spinning stories with your vivid imagination.


Makin stuff up? we dont have the other side of the story. and you know what? there is ALWAYS another side and view point. Quite frankly...its rather unrealistic to come here and paint out your spouse with nothing but a singular presentation of events......

it so easy to jump on the "yeah your spouse is horrible bandwagon" but i am beginning to believe forums like this simply can not be objective and or fair when only one side is presented. I mean she makes the guy sound like a total and complete schmuck......yet cant decide just to leave. why is that? because my suspicion is some of these complaints are more "amplified" then they really are. I mean the guy is being chastised for not playing the piano with his kids......maybe they dont WANT to play the piano......I fly airplanes.....yet my kids show no interest and i dont push.

i think if the OP really want to solve her issues.....she needs to invite her husband here. but i bet that wont happen.


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## turnera

MartinBeck said:


> I think we really need OP to address more why husband has started IC and why "he is focusing on all the ways he has been hurt and 'abused' throughout our marriage".
> 
> She had struggles with infertility and miscarriage but now she's got the 3 kids she wanted. What went so wrong from his perspective and why he still so angry and resentful?
> 
> I really still think we are missing a big part of the story. OP is glossing over or not disclosing some things around sex (yep, sex!) or something else big that has caused him to enter IC and plan his exit.


And yet we still are not talking about how HE damaged the marriage. And try to ignore it, but if a woman doesn't feel nurtured, needed, respected, admired, and DOES feel disrespected, taken for granted, and YELLED AT all the time, _she is not going to want to have sex with him_. Blame it on her all you want, but if a guy wants SEX, he'd damn well better treat her better.


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## turnera

MartinBeck said:


> The "husband just gives up because he's never right" dysfunctional is very real


So is the 'husband just expects the woman to do it all' dysfunction.


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## aine

turnera said:


> To those who keep harping on her unwillingness to have sex with him, as if that was 90% of the reason the marriage is off the rails (as some of you so often do), let's remember:
> 
> 
> We can argue all day long that women should give it up if they want their man to want them. But the man has a responsibility too - to NOT use his wife as a verbal punching bag. To NOT leave her to do 90% of all family work, including hosting his own family. To NOT let her be the only one getting the kids up and putting them to bed. Every day. To actually spend time with the kids he helped bring into the world. She's making steps to try to save the marriage. He is not. I'd guess it's just not fun anymore and, yes, he's not getting as much sex as he thinks he deserves.
> 
> Does he feel resentful? I'm sure he does. As SHE does. But given that he has willingly stepped back and left her feeling abandoned, on her own, basically a single parent, for TEN years, through the loss of a child and other issues, I can't imagine that just saying give it up more is a viable solution.



Sounds like the men on this forum think everything can be solved with some good shagging! FFS he has the responsibility to love and cherish her and make her feel as if he is a partner in the marriage as well, if he is able to organise his hobby he can get of his ass and help her. So sick of this mantra, to keep your man happy you must give it up, what about his responsibilities? Doesn't he have any? A woman is a human being with emotions, feelings etc, do you think she has to lie there and think of England so he can get his rocks off?


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## aine

oldshirt said:


> I can't speak for the OP's husband, but if my wife had to download an app to remind her to have sex or that it was time to give me a BJ, that would be the game-over moment right there.


And if my H has to be reminded to help me out now and again around the house, maybe take some of the responsibility for the kids, driving them to sports, etc, give me some affection and attention, yeah I work a full time job too, he would be out the door as fast as his legs could carry him, what use is he to her? She does it all and earns a living. If all he is is a financier for the family, he doesn't have to be there, he can do that divorced.


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## MartinBeck

aine said:


> If all he is is a financier for the family, he doesn't have to be there, he can do that divorced.



He's clearly working through IC to get the self-actualization and self-worth to get the courage to file.

Again all the "you go girl" responses are ignoring that OP's original complaint is that her husband is going through IC and as a result is doing a 180 to prepare for leaving her. She doesn't want that - she is as per the thread title trying to "save the marriage".

He's not here for us to all gang up on him to tell him to be a better dad and to tell him the way to fix his sex life is by being more attractive by displaying leadership and being more assertive (and lifting, of course). 
He's not here. Op doesn't need more people telling him he's not involved enough with the kids and doesn't do enough chores - she already thinks that. We can't tell him that directly, and us telling her to tell him he needs to be a better dad is massively counterproductive.

Understanding why he is so angry and why his paid professional therapist is encouraging him to leave her seems like the critical thing OP needs to do if she wants to stay married. 

Maybe he's angry for ridiculous reasons. Maybe he's angry for very legitimate reasons. Maybe he really didn't want the 3rd kid. Maybe he is really an emotional baby and a drunk. Maybe he feels financially used. Maybe he has been in a sexless marriage with a refuser for years. Maybe he priorities the band over his family too much because he's banging groupies. Maybe he thinks the marriage is dead because she refuses to go play tennis with him on Saturday mornings. We don't know. 

This is why OP needs to give more information about what's actually been going on in the marriage from his perspective.


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## turnera

No, she doesn't. But she also says she does 90% of everything and he still isn't happy. She's been advised to learn more about things like HNHN. She's been advised to give him more sex, which he doesn't appear to want ATM. And all the 'you go girl' responses have been a direct response, mostly, to YOUR posts blaming pretty much everything on her not wanting to have sex with him. To which we tried to explain that woman will not, and should not, just put out if the man isn't pulling his own weight.


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## MartinBeck

If she's resentful of him "not pulling his own weight", he makes a very good income and they are financially capable of outsourcing more. Pay a cleaning lady rather than get divorced over housework. If he doesn't want to cook, he can pay to have food delivered. 
There are straightforward mechanical financial solutions to that kind of "he doesn't contribute enough at housework". But I get the feeling that him doing more chores or paying to have all the chores done isn't going to make her happy.


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## turnera

It's typical of men to not understand this dynamic. They both work very high power successful jobs. They have a nanny, probably a cleaner. Her issue is that HE DOES NOT PARTICIPATE in the family. And that he yells all the time.


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## aine

turnera said:


> It's typical of men to not understand this dynamic. They both work very high power successful jobs. They have a nanny, probably a cleaner. Her issue is that HE DOES NOT PARTICIPATE in the family. And that he yells all the time.


And now Turnera, YOU are yelling :grin2:

Going back to the OP though, she cannot make the H engage, or participate, or be affectionate, or have more sex, or want to be there. That is totally on him. What she can do is

1. ask him to go to MC

2.If he refuses, then start getting her ducks in a row and emotionally detach from him

3. Start planning for the inevitable

I suspect he has checked out of the marriage and moved on emotionally, that is why he is not engaging and seems to want to spend all his time elsewhere. He is also probably getting ego kibbles from the (I'm sure there are) groupies for his band.

Trying to get the attention of a H who has checked out is a miserable existence, it is a limbo land no person should have to exist in. I'm sorry OP.


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## aine

MartinBeck said:


> If she's resentful of him "not pulling his own weight", he makes a very good income and they are financially capable of outsourcing more. Pay a cleaning lady rather than get divorced over housework. If he doesn't want to cook, he can pay to have food delivered.
> There are straightforward mechanical financial solutions to that kind of "he doesn't contribute enough at housework". But I get the feeling that him doing more chores or paying to have all the chores done isn't going to make her happy.


Martin it is not about the chores, there is a difference between being 'present' in a relationship and physically present. Unfortunately, many husbands don't seem to get this. Their idea of being present is to come home, grab their dinner on the couch and watch TV and maybe grunt occasionally, that is not being present.

I believe this is what the OP is talking about. He may physically go to a match with his kid, but he is not present he is on the phone, he may be at home all evening, but he watches TV that is not being present. This is not uncommon. Some men never get it and wonder why the wife doesn't care anymore whether he comes home or not.


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## oldshirt

All this 'his needs' vs 'her needs' stuff is what MC is for. MC I is so that two people can work together towards meeting each other's needs and keeping both if them engaged in the marriage.

MC can not make someone stay that sincerely wants out and MC does not " make" anyone be a good spouse. 

What it primarily does is help open up channels of communication so each is able to express his/her needs to the other.

The issue with IC here is that IC counselors do not automatically support the marriage with their clients. If they believe the client would be better off on their own, they will recommend and support divorce and will assist them in working through that process. 

If the OP wants to keep the marriage and wants him to be engaged in the marriage, her step should be to try to get him into MC with her.

If he won't do it, this may be a lost cause.


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## turnera

Back into MC. They were in it until a few months ago.


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## MartinBeck

turnera said:


> It's typical of men to not understand this dynamic. They both work very high power successful jobs. They have a nanny, probably a cleaner. Her issue is that HE DOES NOT PARTICIPATE in the family. And that he yells all the time.



It's typical of refusers (men and women) and mommy-martyrs to not understand this dynamic. His issue is that his spouse transferred all her affections and time and energies into the kids. And that for a period of several years previously she refused to have sex with him.


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## turnera

Did that come before or after he emotionally abandoned her?


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## MartinBeck

oldshirt said:


> I can't speak for the OP's husband, but if my wife had to download an app to remind her to have sex or that it was time to give me a BJ, that would be the game-over moment right there.



Two key thoughts:
1) Love is a verb. It doesn't matter what you think inside your skull, it's about what you do. It's about where you put your time and energy.

2) Habits are the key to long term successful outcomes on many things in life. Fit people go to the gym because it's a habit. They don't skip if they feel blah. People who keep their teeth into old age brush their teeth every night before bed, even if they are tired. They feel instinctively wrong if they skip the gym or don't brush.

Reminders lead to frequency. Frequency leads to routine. Routine leads to habit. Habit leads to instinct.

Both of them should agree to specific measurable repeatable activities and put them in their phones as calendar reminders and commit to it until it becomes routine.

If he had a reminder to turn off his phone from 6-9pm every night and engage with the kids, the marriage would improve. He needs to commit to this routine to demonstrate that he can be present in the family.

If they had a routine every Sunday to review kid events and decide which kid events were important that week, he could plan and decide what he was able to commit to. 

He should commit to (say) one little league game a week. And he'd start to realize he has some control over what he's being asked to do, that some kid events are ok to do, and that maybe even though he still doesn't really like the kid event he likes making the kid and the mom happy and likes talking to the other dad he sometimes sees.

If he is (say) bizarrely irrationality seethingly angry that they don't play tennis on Saturday mornings like they used to before kids, she should commit to Saturday morning tennis with him and put it in her calendar and not cancel when a kid event comes up, because she needs to demonstrate that she values the marriage more than the kids. And then she will wind that she values spending time with him providing his "Recreational Companionship" need. And maybe she starts to realize she likes the time at the tennis club and the time away from the kids.

And yes, if she had a calendar reminder to put husbands penis in mouth on Tues and Thurs nights, it would start to become routine, and then habit, and she's start to realize that although she still maybe doesn't really like doing it, she gets something out of it and likes to make her husband happy and starts to miss it if it doesn't happen.


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## Dixie310

Hi guys. I’m new to this forum and was reading through old posts. I was just wondering how this particular situation turned out because it sounds so similar to mine. If the op is still around and happens to see this I’d be grateful for her advice or any thoughts. I’m going through a similar situation in my marriage where I feel that I am overworked and under appreciated and that my husband takes for granted everything I do as totally expected and a woman’s/mothers job (we have 3 children) even though we both work full time and it makes it so hard to act loving and kind towards him. Which I know pushes him further and further away. I don’t know how to feel differently or break the cycle. But I feel lonely and heartbroken all the time.


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## farsidejunky

Dixie310 said:


> Hi guys. I’m new to this forum and was reading through old posts. I was just wondering how this particular situation turned out because it sounds so similar to mine. If the op is still around and happens to see this I’d be grateful for her advice or any thoughts. I’m going through a similar situation in my marriage where I feel that I am overworked and under appreciated and that my husband takes for granted everything I do as totally expected and a woman’s/mothers job (we have 3 children) even though we both work full time and it makes it so hard to act loving and kind towards him. Which I know pushes him further and further away. I don’t know how to feel differently or break the cycle. But I feel lonely and heartbroken all the time.


 @Dixie310, the OP's last activity was over two years ago.

Take a few minutes to start your own thread. You will get advice better tailored to your situation.

Take care. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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