# Aftermath of rape and swinging versus normal marital problems in bed



## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

Hello Talk About Marriage. So I've got what I think is a pretty interesting story that talks about how we got to where we are at and that is in trouble in the bedroom.

The Mrs and I met 9 years ago and fell in love very quickly. I think we both needed someone and were kind souls looking for someone nice in this mean world. She made me wait about a month to have intercourse with her, but I was willing to do it because she was the kind of girl I wanted to marry. As we approached marriage and worked with the counselor required by the priest, my wife made it clear that she was afraid that the difference in our levels of desire would be an issue in our marriage (along with the other 2 normal ones, money and raising the children). I said that it'd be something I'd be willing to work on with her.

Over the next many years we settled into a very dysfunctional but typical power struggle. I would want and ask for sex....my wife would put me off but then finally give in maybe once a week...the sex would be over pretty quickly and just be focused in getting off...very, very rarely would my wife initiate or actually seem very into the sex. There were times that my wife actually said (from a position of guilt and sadness) that I could get a girlfriend because my wife wasn't able to take care of me sexually...I always refused because I knew that it would devastate my wife's already low self-esteem.

Our marriage was very close and co-dependent...I think you should depend upon one another because a team is stronger than 2 individuals and you have to have someone you can be totally open with...but she needed to be taken care of because she was "hurt" in some way and I am a fixer...she stuffed her emotions and drowned herself in food and I loved to cook for her and eat.

So last year I took a gig in another state for 100 days because it was the best job I could get at the time, & we both thought it was a better solution to being laid off than taking a joe job just to get by. I talked to my wife most every day and was very sad to be apart from her and my very young child. When I got back home, things went back to being great everywhere except that in the bedroom. One of the first nights we actually had some really good, intimate sex, and the Mrs said that maybe it takes about 100 days for her to actually feel desire (foreshadowing).

As last year progressed, my wife seemed to withdraw from me emotionally. There was a point at which she said that it felt like we were more like roommates than husband and wife. I should mention that she did her part during the 100 days by starting a night job so she could watch our kid during the day while I was gone...she kept this tough schedule up when I returned so that we wouldn't have to spend our money on day-care but I think this also helped exacerbate problems in our marriage.

Towards October the Mrs mentioned in bed something that had been discussed when we were dating. I had had this delusion that I wanted a swinging marriage, and my wife-then-girlfriend was just not that kind of girl (according to her), so I abandoned the idea. Over the years we talked in bed about a threesome...my wife never fantasizes and this was the only thing she would tell me she wanted to try but was afraid to do so. So she brings up the fact that she'd been thinking about swinging and wanted to try it...but instead of doing the threesome OR swinging as a couple, she wants us to swing solo...what the F*CK!?!?!? I consider it and discuss the crap out of it with her and come to a (wrong) conclusion that this could be a good thing for the following reasons:

1) perhaps it will resolve the lack of desire in my wife
2) I loved her so much I was willing to do most anything for her
3) maybe I'd finally get the sex I deserve!
4) we love each other so much that, as long as it's just sex, it can't hurt our relationship

We put up a personals ad for my wife, & I insisted that she be the first to swing because I didn't think she'd be able to handle it.
The ground rules were that we had to check in with each other about our location for safety purposes
AND that we had to keep an eye on drifting emotionally
AND we would stop if either one of us was having problems dealing with the swinging.

The first night my wife went out on a date I was a wreck. Since she worked a night shift and me an early morning, she was out late on the date and I was staying up at the expense of my sleep because I was so torn up. She had dinner with the guy then went back to his place to watch a movie. Towards the early morning I started texting and calling her and told her I needed her to come home. She got mad at me for interrupting but ended up coming home before they'd had intercourse (I'm sure there was kissing and petting).

The next time she had a shot at something it was just about sex. She talked to a lot of guys but tells me that she kept it out of the gutter because that wasn't what she was about. This guy said they should get together, so the Mrs and I talked, she got ready, and went down to meet this guy at a hotel. Apparentely the sex was amazing because this guy had a problem where he didn't really orgasm or go soft. She went for hours with him and tried things that she hadn't tried with me. She got so into it at one point that she bit him on the chest and liked it. They got doggy to work, something she never got going with me because she had said our 2 bodies were 2 big to make it work...well, this guy wasn't a skinny guy and he got it to work.

I was excited that things had gone so well and at that time just didn't see what was coming my way. Over the next months
swinging took over our lives. We were both constantly on the computers talking to people and trying to hook things up. As an average guy I had a much smaller success rate than my wife. Even as a very big girl (maybe 350-400 lbs) she still had a ton of guys interested in her.

I should mention one important thing that sort of explains why she finally had the confidence to do something so out of character for her. She had started back to the gym (and got me to come along) and was training with a trainer 4-5 times a week.
If that wasn't enough it also turns out that a (piece of sh*t) coworker of hers was showing a lot of interest in her. She would tell me about him playing with her purse or being funny with her, and I just knew something wasn't right. So one night I couldn't sleep and was up in the wee hours when she got off work. I called her on the phone and she was out in the parking lot talking to this guy.
When she got home, she told me that he had passed her a note asking what would happen if he weren't ok with just being friends any more. This )(%r)(@ had a wife with a baby on the way, and here he is trying to get with my wife!

So this would normally be a clear cut thing...you're married so tell this guy I'm going to kick his a*s if he talks to you again...
but we had agreed to swinging, so she wanted to get with him....I at first supported it, then told her I wanted to hurt this guy because he wasn't swinging, he was cheating and asking her to cheat! This was when my wife really started to turn the swinging into a dirty thing. She wouldn't abide by our ground rules of not doing something if the other had a problem with it.
She never ended up getting intimate with this guy (if she was honest about everything with me as she insists), and he eventually moved to a different shift.

The sex was very hot in the beginning. If my wife talked to some guy but couldn't schedule a date or if she met someone but didn't get intimate, she would ravish me. We finally started to look forward to sex together & tell each other what we were going to do the next time we saw each other. I had a very hot encounter with a gal I connected with (very emotional...which wasnt a good thing since this was just supposed to be about sex but the Mrs said she didn't have a problem with it). But like everything ill-conceived, this boost didn't last.

I started to come apart emotionally during this time because, in addition to the bad idea of swinging (which I agreed to), my sibling was dying of cancer. I would ask my wife to stop the swinging, and she would insist that I was upset over my sibling instead of the swinging. My wife stopped having a 1000% sex drive...enough for me and the world....instead she seemed like she enjoyed being with these other guys more than me, getting away from her husband and child more than having family time.

In the Spring of this year, I had had enough. I was talking to her best friend all the time about how our marriage was coming apart because I needed someone to talk to and my wife didn't want to discuss these things. The friend didn't know about the swinging (yet) and wisely suggested couple's counseling. Since I was even getting to the point of feeling suicidal, I decided to pull our permission to swing. I met the Mrs for dinner break (with our child in tow) and sprung the news on her. We both had dates lined up for that week that we really wanted, but I said we were done with swinging as of that moment. The Mrs was in shock.
She got so much of a boost to her confidence from the swinging (at least at first) that she didn't want to stop, but she obviously knew that was our agreement. She didn't argue or protest but was pretty silent. I told her that she better be happy that we were stopping swinging and would still have our marriage...or she could get the f*ck out of the car.

Foolishly I wasn't clear with my wife (or hadn't decided) that I didn't want her continuing chats, texts, and phone calls with these guys even if she wasn't ever going to see them or have sex with them. Even though the swinging had stopped, I still wasn't at peace and couldn't really figure it out. Once I realized that my wife was still getting an artificial boost from talking to these guys that found her sexy and that she was getting her emotional satisfaction through her friendships with them, I told her I wanted all contact with the guys stopped. She refused. I would ask and she would tell me I was trying to control her.

At some point during this fight, I started seeing a counselor...presumably because I was so depressed over the impending death of my sibling. But when I got talking to the counselor, I realized that my sibling's condition sucked but I had come to terms with it. What was killing me inside was the relationship with my wife. The counselor said that she would like my wife to come in and talk to her individually. My wife thought she was being ambushed, but I drew a line in the sand and told her that it was bullsh*t that I put up with her depression for all the years of our marriage...I endured the swinging...and that because she also thought it was a good idea I was willing to talk to a counselor...but yet my wife thought it was ok for her not to deal with HER(/our) issues? F*ck that. The pressure finally got her to go and a lot of things came to light (the subject of another post I will write later).

I ended up having to threaten my wife with divorce to get her to stop talking to these guys. The last straw was when I fired up her computer (something I had always had permission to do) to install some firewall software. THe chat program came up, and one of these "platonic" guys with a screen named that referenced how much he loved oral sex with women,
pops up with a message, "Hey sexy " I stormed into the bedroom and woke my wife up. I let her know that it was either these guys or me...but that I would no longer let her have it both ways. She FINALLY after many many major fights
reluctantly agreed to stop talking to these guys....I wish it hadn't taken that threat but she was out of control. Even her best friend
had a conversation with her and told her she was being a total idiot by threatening her marriage for the sake of these guys (at this point the Mrs had told her best friend about the swinging and the friend did NOT approve).

There is so much more to post about that I will put something together (at least for my own benefit of getting it all out there)
and post it in the next few days.

Signed
Not Me Oh


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

It appears your wife was getting her ego stoked by all the swinging. Appears swinging is a bad thing....I don't know as I do not partake in such. I have a hard enough problem managing a marriage let alone adding other people!  

No wonder you were upset and going to counseling....maybe you should keep it up? Intimate relationships are pretty important, it takes work.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Why the heck are you two even married?


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## Ingrid (Aug 12, 2009)

My head is spinning. That is very complicated. An affair is one thing, but wow. 

Your wife was addicted to swinging. She got a high not only from the sex but all the varied attention.

I would say counseling is in order, the marriage seems on a very, very shaky foundation. 

I would just ask... why is it important for the both of you to be in a "marriage" in the first place? You both have gotten your needs met elsewhere... Is there a real love between you, or is it that you are attached to the idea of "staying" (as loosely as possible, it appears) married?


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## Sensitive (Mar 29, 2009)

Unfortunately, I can relate to your story. It sounds like your wife is addicted to sexual attention from other men. By starting the swinging agreement, you opened the floodgates to her sexual fantasies. If only you two can channel the energy within your own marriage and curb the jealousy, I think the problems will can resolve with counseling.


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## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

Part 2 of my post

We started counseling in the Spring with the same therapist but an understanding that most everything my wife said would remain confidential. The counselor could only tell me what my wife consented to or give me general impressions.

The way I got to counseling was a bit strange. I was researching on the internet the way I was feeling after the swinging had stopped, & most of the posts I came across were for people that had been cheated on by their spouses. It made me start to wonder if, with my wife's night job and me at work during the day, WAS she cheating? I had never had a reason to doubt her fidelity prior to this, but now these controlling feelings were with me. The resentment was there since she had to stop these activities (swinging and chatting) that made her feel attractive for one of the first times in her life (even though she was at least 130 lbs above her weight loss goal). The guys that my wife was friends with at work became suspect....obviously there WAS the one guy that had asked her to cheat on me and that made me question whether she had encouraged that AND if she had started down that road before she asked for permission to swing! We had a game night with another one of her married coworkers (his wife was there), & this guy was a total pig. Everyone except me was drinking (I was the designated driver and on antidepressants at this point at the suggestion of our counselor). This coworker kept saying things like "I'll take a drink if all you ladies take your top off" or "Hey, ladies let's go upstairs and get naked." I blew these comments off a bit and eventually made a run out to drive home one of the gal's that had gotten too drunk to drive. I came back to the party which was by now just my wife and the couple, & my wife is talking to the guy's wife about how she thought based on her ex's that all guys were that big.........ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME? I wasn't upset that she might be talking about me. What I was upset about was that my wife didn't appear to understand the boundaries that at least I expect her to observe in a marriage. She can't fantasize....she can't have a normal sexual relationship with me...but she wants to talk intimate sexual details with this woman with the husband right there? I came through the door, told her that this was NOT COOL, and said it was time to go home. 

Over the next few months we fought about wifey's relationships with guys. I told her that I was okay with her being friends with appropriate guys, but guys that in any way were disrespectful or forward with her were not okay. She thought I was trying to control her...perhaps I was...I said to myself that, if she drifted into one emotional affair at work, what's going to say she won't do that again intentionally or unintentionally seeking that BOOST.
She stopped talking to the guy that had been so inappropriate but that was mainly because he switched shifts.

So back to the counseling. The counselor and I talked a ton, & wifey saw her on her own. We started down on a road where I realized that my wife wasn't physically cheating
but that she was indeed getting most of her need for conversation and emotional support from people other than me. The counselor recommended that we focus our attentions on each other and pretty much drop off the face of the earth...and we complied. It was explained that my wife with her background had the emotional capacity of a guy...let me explain...she was the guy in the relationship and I the chick (something we had joked about for years)...so she didn't have my capacity for talking about problems and fears and working on them. She wasn't in touch with her feelings.

Another road that I started to go down before the counseling (based on internet research) was that my wife had been molested as a child. The counselor even said when asked what books I might read for help, that I should get the Allies in Healing book. It took many more sessions for my wife to clear this one up. She allowed the counselor to tell me that she had not been molested as a kid. Sounds like a load off, huh? Well, that night I pushed my wife further. I KNEW for a fact that there was some deep, dark secret there that my wife ALWAYS refused to clear up. She finally came clean and explained that she had been date raped once in college and repeatedly abused by her fiancee (the last relationship before me)...I would say that was rape too because the guy took sex whenever he wanted it, even if she didn't. He was also very controlling, emotionally abusive, and a drain on her finances.

I entered this marriage with the promise that I would love my wife for better or worse...but man, I felt like she had not been honest with me. You agree to love someone
but shouldn't you have all the facts? I was attracted to the fact that she needed me, but would I have chosen her as my spouse if I had known she was this "traumatized"
I can't honestly say "yes." I love my wife and know that she supports me back. We have a very dysfunctional sex life. I am emotionally in touch, and she shuts things up in side. She has been depressed for much of her life and now has me all f*cked up in the head over the sex and swinging. We have a child that we conceived with a few rounds of medical assistance (regulating hormones) after years of trying the natural way....and in July we got the biggest surprise of our lives...we're pregnant again but this time the natural way. I know from my 2 long posts that this may sound like a bad thing, but I'm in this for the long haul. There's no way I will break up the family and f*ck up our kids lives...and I always said that I wouldn't leave over s*x (as long as my wife didn't cheat on me)...but man, it's hard to stay when you just think your wife is f*cked in the head about sex and isn't making any effort to make things better there.

There are a few more things I'd like to say in a 3rd post that covers what's happened since the rapes came to light and what we tried to improve things emotionally and sexually.


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## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

Sensitive, I'd like to hear more about your thoughts.

To the person that asked why we are even still married...we do very much love one another, but it's like being married at times to your best friend of the opposite sex. I think divorce would be too messy and that I would feel like sh*t for leaving over sex. I HAVE seriously considered getting a girlfriend with wifey's permission if she won't make an effort (MORE ON THAT LATER)


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## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

Part 3 of my post

It's sort of a cruel joke that we're pregnant again. It's not that either of us doesn't want another child. It's not like the timing should be much later as we wanted to have any remaining kids before hitting a certain age (unless we adopted). We definitely think our first child will benefit from having to share and love a younger sibling. But with the way this pregnancy takes all the energy out of my wife and made intercourse painful, it's put an end to the last way the counselor suggested we work things out in the bedroom.

During our one and only couple's session, the counselor basically suggested that my wife's lack of desire for sex came from an upbringing where sex was something hidden....because my wife insists that it isn't the rape trauma that is causing this and that she has never been a very sexual person (you could have fooled me when she was swinging...grrr), the problem had to be back in her childhood. Since the counselor has a daughter in the same sport that my wife played, it was suggested that my wife learn to love sex again with me by treating it like practice. The more time she spent having good sensations in bed, the more "muscle memory" she would develop and there by learn to desire sex.

One of the keys in all of this was that my wife would get to be the one to initiate...and this is where I think it's the rape talking...she was in a relationship where she was taken whenever the guy wanted her (she has only talked about this pretty much once so I am going off of very limited data). We tried this let-her-initiate approach, but wifey made me even swear off flirting or complimenting her much. I felt so handicapped that I could not express my desire or appreciate my wife's looks verbally. And the Mrs really thought that it would be a good idea (sarcastically speaking here) to stick with the once-a-week maintenance sex schedule that worked SO well before.

One time after the swinging my wife "gave in" (that's how I see it now) to having sex with me, & I don't know why that time was so different but I actually caught my wife "checking out" during sex. Perhaps she had just done a better job hiding it...or maybe she wanted to make it clear now...perhaps I was even a bit dense...but she was in the "lay on my back like a sack of potatoes and take it until the man comes" mode. I called her a bit later in the day and made her commit to not having sex with me again unless she wanted to. That's such a contradiction / catch 22....I don't want her to have sex with me unless she feels it but I get angry that she never feels in the mood to have sex!

Things didn't work out too well, but to be honest, I have to wonder how much of it was the fact that my wife was pregnant for part of the time.

I could sense when my wife stopped putting an effort into working on things and "gave up." About once a week I'd find myself starting into a conversation with her and unable to break away. It'd end up with me explaining that I have needs and I expect her to work on things....and given her way of dealing with things, she'd shut down.

This weekend she actually told me that she has given up on things getting better sexually because she tried and it didn't work. I made it very clear to her (in a way that actually sounded like I would consider divorce...something I would only do if she cheated on me or intentionally hurt me) that, if she gives up on me, she is dooming the relationship because this is not something I can fix from my side.

I think the counselor was just plain wrong...I don't think this is a matter of just getting into bed and working things out....this is about my wife not loving who she is as a person...about us getting into "emotional gridlock" and struggles that seem un-win-able. My wife knows if she listens to me that I will be patient with her if she shows me that she is working on things...and obviously I don't mean to punish her with fights but it is obvious that I will get very upset if I feel like I'm the only one who is willing to put in the effort to improve things.

This weekend I was on some website (MSN? talkingaboutmarriage?) and ran across the Passionate Marriage book Passionate Marriage | Passionate Marriage (Book) 
The first 30 pages are so have been very promising, and I'm starting to feel that same hope I did when my wife was finally willing to go to therapy. I'm forcing myself to not get to excited and pin all of my hopes on us reading this book and putting it's principles into action. I know my wife may have some serious issues stemming from her childhood (a melded family with a father who was emotionally pretty distant and a biological mom who died when she was five) and the rape/abuse, so this may take her going to therapy to "put the past behind her" along with us letting our marriage work on us.

Wish us luck!


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## Sensitive (Mar 29, 2009)

Not Me Oh said:


> Sensitive, I'd like to hear more about your thoughts.



Thanks for the request. I did continue to read your thread, and it seems like you are placing too much emphasis on the sex in the marriage. If she was raped/sexually abused, I would think she needs the counseling more than you do. I am not an expert in sexual abuse cases, but I have heard victims can be either sexually repressed or sexually promiscuous. Without admitting too much of my personal history, I still think your marriage seems savable.


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## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

Sensitive, I think that's one of the things that really gets me. She claims that the sexual abuse doesn't affect who she is today...but how could it not? it's not like skinning your knee and it scabbing over...it was something that happened repeatedly and violated her sense of control over her body.

And how can she turn into "super sex vixen" for a few months because she's working out and feeling good about herself, then think I'm going to be ok with her going back "frigid?" She can't explain why she feels how she feels and promises she's not doing it to hurt me...I tend to believe her but that doesn't make the resentment go away. I drive around in my car angry that she could f*ck some other guy and spend hours enjoying it, yet it's too much to ask her to do something other than try to "get me off" in bed. The swinging has really got me f*cked up in the head, & I don't think it'll get better until I can see an honest effort from her to work on our intimacy together.


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## Sensitive (Mar 29, 2009)

Have you told her all this stuff? What does she say?


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## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

Sensitive: she tends to shut down if pushed too hard to make changes...or get angry if I dare bring up the sw*nging days.

It probably wasn't the most romantic time to do it...or maybe it was...but Monday I'd had enough and told her that I had changed my mind on leaving her over s*x...meaning this...I'm not going to leave if things don't get better over night but I was done if she thought she could just give up on ever having passion in our marriage. It was a very scary thing to challenge her on because I have this fear of hurting her...she's my sweet wife (something hard to feel lately because I was a stupid sh*t and agreed to sw*nging when she asked me to do it). It also felt like a very bad time to push the issue because
1) she isnt getting a lot of sleep lately when switching from working at night to taking care of our child during the day
2) the pregnancy is taking a lot out of her
3) our anniversary was the next day.

The way I explained it to her was that if she was going to give up on me, I was too tired to keep being the only one really working on the issue.....but if she were to agree to start back to working on things with me, I'd do everything I could to make sure I was approaching this from a positive standpoint and not do things to make her feel beat up for asking me (and getting my approval) to sw*ng. She agreed to work with me...wish it had been some romantic, movie-type thing "Oh honey, if only I'd known...yes, yes, yes I'll work with you" (LOL)

Later that night we put our daughter to bed in her room at the hotel (anniversary trip) and tried something new that was her idea...she said that I wanted intimacy in our marriage, so she wanted to try just doing a massage without any s*x following.
I was PRETTY good but just had to fight my urge to do what feels great to me. The next morning I did wake up extremely randy and try to do something with her after waking her up...she was going to do one of those "I'll lay here and do your thing" reactions, so I said I'd rather her go back to sleep and rest up, I wouldn't be mad...she was a bit skeptical but then took me up on the offer. Baby steps...


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## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

So would most of the readers here concur that, if your partner's interest in sex is almost zero ("I'd be ok with not really having sex) and they choose not to work on it, that they are writing a ticket for divorce or the other partner to have an affair? That's what I said in a discussion last night that may have made an impact on my wife...now that she's done with swinging she doesn't want me to have a girlfriend but yet she won't provide me quality sex (by quality I mean more than just spreading her legs and taking it).

The way I like to think about things is that I'm sad that my wife has hardly any positive sexual experiences in her life prior to me (a few times with one fiancee that left her, then a lot of sex with her other fiancee who took it whenever he wanted it and was emotionally abusive)......I'm sad for her but I've also lost my patience....meaning that I was a lot more ok with her lack of desire before she turned into super vixen and enjoyedswinging...sorry toots, you can't put in grade A work for other guys then go back to failing sex ed with your hubby...f*ck that. I'm patient with her as long as she is actively working on the problem and understands that there are some things that she will need to make important to her because they are important to me (and vice versa).


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## downfall (Jul 5, 2009)

stop wasting your time even if you have kids move on.go find someone you are happy with.are you just gonna hope and wish everyday for the rest of your life that she will change? she will not.she does not want you if she did this would not be happening. look how happy she was when she had someone else inside of her that WASN'T YOU. WAKE UP befor you get hurt even more then you already are


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## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

It's been pretty hard since I told my wife I was not going to be ok with no effort from her when it comes to adding passion to our marriage...not that I expected it to be easy. We talked a lot yesterday about different things from the "Talk About Marriage" book, but as usual it was mainly me getting excited about what might work to change things that we both do or don't do. As usually happens, though, when it came time to do something physical, my wife was pretty uninvolved. I had prepared her last weekend for doing something Saturday night and it didn't happen, so we had a fight. I told her the same thing this Saturday and the argument started towards the end of the night mainly because we were running out of time. It was 10 o clock or later and we had just gotten our daughter to sleep. She wanted to watch tv or play some cards like we had talked about. I looked at the fact that I needed to get up early the next day (Sunday) to go into work and said that I wanted to have our bedroom fun prior to anything else. When I started asking her what might feel good to her or what something was she would want to try, I got the usual blank stare and "I don't know" responses. The argument was our usual...me starting off pretty positive, asking her to make an effort, asking her what she thought our issues were, what would feel good...and then degenerated. 

She is worried that our marriage is on the rocks and is scared of becoming a single mom of 2 kids. I ask her if she wants to leave me and she says "no." So why are you afraid for our marriage,I ask? "Because you said you'd leave me if things don't get better." As usual I have to clarify for her that I expect her to make an effort, not to turn things around overnight. "But what if things don't ever get better? I'm not like other women. I'm not withholding s*x from you to hurt you...." I tell her to stop giving up before she's even tried. "When I tried things earlier nothing was good enough for you." She's referring to the maybe 2 or 3 times around June that we tried what the counselor had reccommended...which was to get some "muscle memory" going for wifey by enjoying each other physically...have good s*x and desire will follow....somehow I think this counselor either doesn't get it or maybe her advice just won't work for my wife.

So question to those that are reading this and have some insight...how can someone like my wife know that she needs to make an effort, want to stay in our marriage, but then not spend any time working on things and not expect to get called on it? I'm definitely not saying I'm perfect, but has anyone here resolved things with their low-desire spouse in a better way?


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Sensitive said:


> I did continue to read your thread, and it seems like you are placing too much emphasis on the sex in the marriage.


:iagree:
My opinion is that putting pressure on her will only make things worse.

Perhaps changing the focus on what she may want vs. what you want out of your sex life will help. One example would be when she wanted to give you a massage w/o sex. She was suggesting intimacy and probably would respond to you if you offered that once in a while without any expectation of sex.


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## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

swedish said:


> :iagree:
> Perhaps changing the focus on what she may want vs. what you want out of your sex life will help. One example would be when she wanted to give you a massage w/o sex. She was suggesting intimacy and probably would respond to you if you offered that once in a while without any expectation of sex.


I would LOVE it if she would actually express what the hell she wants out of a sex life. I know she appreciates a good massage and had been thinking tonight that I would just massage and kiss a little Saturday night and not take it anywhere further.

The author of that book I'm reading suggests that a lot of low-desire spouses actually have fantasies and desire but don't realize it / can't express it...in our marriage it seems like my wife is physically disconnected from that area of herself...the only thing that sort of points towards fantasy is her love of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" / Outlander type books.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Will she "roleplay" a scene out of Clan of the Cave Bear where you dominate her and mate with her? 

I know first hand that type of scenario works very very well arousing some types of women. But it is like the massage at night - she expects you to pounce and you don't just spoon up against her and sleep. The next morning you do your alpha role play and wrestle a bit in the bed first to make it more fun and then you have sex - hopefull good sex. 




Not Me Oh said:


> I would LOVE it if she would actually express what the hell she wants out of a sex life. I know she appreciates a good massage and had been thinking tonight that I would just massage and kiss a little Saturday night and not take it anywhere further.
> 
> The author of that book I'm reading suggests that a lot of low-desire spouses actually have fantasies and desire but don't realize it / can't express it...in our marriage it seems like my wife is physically disconnected from that area of herself...the only thing that sort of points towards fantasy is her love of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" / Outlander type books.


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## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

That would be hot. I think I'll save that one for after the baby comes and wifey is healed  Funny thing I had to explain to my wife here recently was that the vagina is a muscle...if not used, it's going to atrophy and sex will become more painful when it does happen...now if I could just figure out why going down on her makes her so itchy....oh yeah, and she doesn't want me to shave my goatee off even if that might help ;-)


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## noromeo (Jul 2, 2009)

Not Me ....

I'm not married myself but have been divorced for 12 years. Since then I have been involved with a woman for 5 years that I am still attracted to. We connect on so many levels I felt. We have not had sex in three years!!! Even before that it was minimal. So I understand something about wanting to stay with someone for all kinds of reasons other than sex.

It's easy to listen to the words of the reply from "downfall" and just get out. When it's not your life.. it's easy to say that.

I have pushed my partner into wanting to have sex (and you would think when your not married it's easier) but we're at the point now where the relationship is dissolving. I know her reasons. She doesn't think I'm marriage potential and thinks of me more as a friend now regardless if we've been intimate in the beginning. I remember how fabulous it was then. The foreplay, the leading up to sex from dinner, stimulating conversation, etc.

Anyway... what I'm saying for you is that it's noble that your being patient with your wife and looking to see some progress from her side. The "swinging project" you tried although gave you some more insight of what is going on with your wife, but also (as it usually does) creates resentment, anger, jealousy, and betrayal for you. Which of course is almost impossible to forget and forgive.

It's sad that your wife has been a victim of abuse. I've heard that it lasts a lifetime. These guys she had sex with and told you how good it was would naturally anger any husband or partner but it also told you that she is capable of doing so.

Maybe it was because she knew they were temporary and their is no attachment and she let her guard down from her past. These guys weren't close to her emotionally... as you are.

The men in her life that she's been close to (former relationships) have created an environment of abuse, physical and emotional.

You are doing the right thing about being patient, Only you can decide how far to take it. It seems that setting up sex, like a play or concert about to start is just too much pressure. I don't know. Somehow set things up where it just seems to be an "accident" that your in a romantic moment. It's not easy to do but takes thought. Just an idea.

I've heard it said that the best relationships are the ones that you really don't work that hard at. Where each one thinks they got the better end of the deal. That's the goal we should all shoot for.


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## downfall (Jul 5, 2009)

it's not my life. and it not easy to say it. because i know how hard it is to leave someone who you love and want to spend the rest of your life with but you know deep inside they dont care about you not matter how much they say it.

maybe she does have problems maybe she cant forget her past.
but if she cared for you in the least she would not be putting you through this she would atleast try.and from what ive read she seems to keep you around for the convience of it all.

like i said befor get out befor you wake up one morning and your 40 years old and see that you have waseted your life with someone who you hoped one day would change.


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## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

Noromeo, thanks for the response and sorry to hear about your situation. You definitely are right about the having her guard up...being spontaneous is pretty hard when your wife is always on the lookout...come up and grab her around the waist? try to get a kiss? make a suggestion about what you'd like to do later? Denied.

Because I know my wife doesn't want to fight all the time and doesn't "withhold" sex from me (she just doesn't have desire) with malice...I have to take her at her word when she says that she doesn't know why she had desire in the fall (when I agreed to her suggestion that we swing) but now is back to her normal.

Like you said...it's nice to know what she IS capable of...but it's almost impossible not to get angry or sad about what is versus what is possible.

I don't think there is anything I can do to bring her around from my end (gee, like everyone I talked to has said)...she has to find out for herself that she is a good person....attractive even if she isn't at the weight she wants to be...a good wife even if she can't "take care of me" without doing it as a "wifely duty..." only then will she be happy enough to want someone to truly see who she is and allow them inside her former barriers


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## I Know (Dec 14, 2011)

Not Me: It sounds like your wife is attracted to men that are very decisive and controlling. Right? she was married to a guy who just "took" her. Her first swing partner was insisting on having sex. She was attracted to that. 

She logically knows that you are good for her. But is attracted to assertive, aggressive men. 

Forget the rape. Forget her past. You cannot change any of that. If you want more sex and a better relationship. You are going to have to increase the manliness factor. 

Read Married Man Sex Life by Athol Kay. You will find out that being the kind, caring, understanding, always available emotionally man is a losing strategy. You do not have to be abusive, but you do have to be assertive. You have to go for what you want and pull your wife's interest and desire along.


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## Powerbane (Nov 8, 2010)

Might want to look at the thread date. The OP is probably long gone
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I Know (Dec 14, 2011)

Powerbane said:


> Might want to look at the thread date. The OP is probably long gone
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL! U right. Thought I had sorted by latest thread.

Wonder how it all turned out.


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## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

Oh the wonders of the internet. So many years after I created this thread, I received an email update once there were new updates to it.

How did things work out? Not very well. In 2011 (summer?) I suggested that we get divorced, then withdrew that a day later. The suggestion didn't come as a surprise...we had both been talking about being happier separately than together. Like so many married couples with kids, we have been staying together for the children's sake...plus we took the first time homebuyer's credit on this house and can't sell until end of 2012 (baaaah).

The issues we've had since the end of 2010 have to do with her weight and the lack of sex. She had eaten her way to 400 lbs (6'0") which was just too much for me. My own weight was a concern for me so, when she wouldn't join me in working out, I did it on my own. Like someone had suggested here, sometimes you have to lead and the other person will be pulled along.

My wife doesn't want me to see her naked any more because she is embarrassed of her body. Gotta love how that works...she can eat herself fat enough, then hide behind that as a reason to not to want to have sex.

I don't think there's much reason to post to this thread any more because I don't think my wife is really capable of change. She has no interest in further counseling. She's gone from being the shy, sincere person I met 12 years ago, to a combative, "used up" woman. Life is hard on everyone, but "this isn't the person I married" (Ha, I'm not saying that for a bunch of people to flame me; this is my thread and I'll say what I want :lol: ).

In response to what someone wrote recently about not being too sensitive with a woman...I couldn't be "that guy" that I was when I met my wife any more because I just don't care for her like that any more. She's put me through too much **** over the years and failed to put in the effort to change...so I just don't care for her any more. We raise the kids together but don't do anything together beyond that. 

If there is a way to close out this thread, let's do that


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## nicky1 (Jan 20, 2012)

effort comes from a choice then a commitment to do it, she does not want to, why, i think after having other sexual partners you are just on borrowed time, no way back from that. time to find a new wife. it took me years to get the self confidence to leave a marriage i was never truely happy in, now i have a new wife and it is just wonderful. Get an asian wife, they are the best in the world.


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## marriedinpei (Jan 15, 2012)

Sounds like an open marriage, not swinging. Swinging is normally done together.


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## I Know (Dec 14, 2011)

Not Me Oh said:


> If there is a way to close out this thread, let's do that


Not me: I appreciate the closure. Sorry it didn't work out. It sounds like your wife has a lot of internal demons to work out. 

Best of luck


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## SecondTimesTheCharm (Dec 30, 2011)

Not Me Oh...seems like she had a lot more people that wanted to f*** her than you did. Sour grapes. You didn't get much/any side action and she got plenty of attention.

There are other ways to swing. 

Same room swap with two couples in same room and just swapping 
partners or everyone on everyone if everyone is open to bi action. 

Full swap, separate rooms, where you two are at the same venue but just pair off and go into separate rooms. 

These scenarios would have worked better since you did not seem to be getting any action. Your wife would have been the bait but would've at least got you laid and less resentful.


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## jmsclayton (Sep 5, 2010)

Not Me Oh

I am sorry she has chosen that path.I am sorry your struggling and hope you can separate even while your paying on the house. Is there anyone you can stay with?

I know a husband for the sake of the kids separated from his wife. YOu can give her a choice of separation or work on it. Is that possible. It not wise to stay in that and I dont promote divorce but the kids need you two to be having sex and if she is not wanting to work on it-Then try separation. Separation goal is to reconcile and open the partners eyes to what is serious in the relationship.

Can you still get a hotel room until the end of 2012. She can change if she wants to. Her swinging was a way to go back to what she has believe about herself in that that is all she is good for and that healthy sex is not waht she can do. Healthy sex is scary. especially when rape has happened. 

Getting fat is a way for a woman to keep a guy away from her so he doesnt pursue sex. Sex is scary to a woman. It takes alot from her mind and emotions to change and then reconnect that back to her body. If I understand right her age is 50 something. Some 50 year olds dont think they have the emotional strength to heal. See Aftersilence-there are some 50 year old women on there talking about how it is hard to work through but some are working through and others are struggling wtih the decision.

THe important of remarrying again means that you work on the grieving process of leaving this one and interacting on a nonsexual level and get to know the woman because she has to be able to trust you to open up her body vaginally for you. 
Asian women can be healthy want to involved in sex
I know some asian woman who are like white women who are involved and so on. I hope I am making sense. It may not come out right. White woman are good as well-it just takes healing for woman to overcome abuse and rape to want sex and it can be done. I know

When a woman is used to be controlled in a rape and that feels safe to her-that is what she is going to seek as well as believe about herself. 

She is dealign with anxiety when it comes to sex -

Thoughts? 

Judith


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

Not Me Oh said:


> Sensitive, I'd like to hear more about your thoughts.
> 
> To the person that asked why we are even still married...we do very much love one another, but it's like being married at times to your best friend of the opposite sex. *I think divorce would be too messy *and that I would feel like sh*t for leaving over sex. I HAVE seriously considered getting a girlfriend with wifey's permission if she won't make an effort (MORE ON THAT LATER)


:lol: So letting your wife bang other men is what? Clean? Don't tell me that the emotional fallout of your wife's swinging is not as "messy" as a divorce. 

You are clearly not suited for an open marriage and that's okay.

Sex is more important than we all care to admit.


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## jmsclayton (Sep 5, 2010)

HI Not Me Oh

Sex is the one of the top ten that couples divorce over. Actually it was one of the first listed 

Forgot to add something. Children need their parents to be having sex together. Sex is what holds among other factors the marriage glue that holds it together.

I can elaborate if you want

Judith


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