# Boundaries in Marriage



## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

In my attempts to grow and make my marriage better, I have read many, many books over the past few months. One of the books that has helped me most is 'Boundaries in Marriage' by Henry Cloud and John Townsend. I found it so helpful that it really has changed my outlook on marriage and life in general.

I have asked my wife if she would be willing to read it, or at least go through it with me, and she tells me she is not interested because of the many references the authors make to Christianity and to the bible.

My question is, is there a book that covers a similar topic and in similar detail that doesn't have the Christian references?

I'd really love for my wife to learn about boundaries, and how we all must take responsibility for our actions, feelings and behavior, but she will not even so much as consider this book.

Thanks for any help.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

breathedeep said:


> In my attempts to grow and make my marriage better, I have read many, many books over the past few months. One of the books that has helped me most is 'Boundaries in Marriage' by Henry Cloud and John Townsend. I found it so helpful that it really has changed my outlook on marriage and life in general.
> 
> I have asked my wife if she would be willing to read it, or at least go through it with me, and she tells me she is not interested because of the many references the authors make to Christianity and to the bible.
> 
> ...


Christian here and I read non Christian books as well as Christian.

Good advice is good regardless of the source.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Christian here and I read non Christian books as well as Christian.
> 
> Good advice is good regardless of the source.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with you wholeheartedly. I wish I could convince my wife the same.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Actually, after reviewing, she better read any damn books you want her to and jump through hoops to keep you!

She isn't a very good wife especially after cheating on you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

In scanning your other thread I recommend these...

The Emotionally Unavailable Man: A Blueprint for Healing: Patti Henry: 9781568250960: Amazon.com: Books 

(there is a section in there that addresses a hurricaining wife.)

I also recommend You Don't Have To Take It Anymore

Frequency of fights is NOT the norm... You two will have to learn how to stay different or end it.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm not a Christian. I mean, I am really, _really_, not a Christian. I still found both Boundaries and Boundaries in Marriage to be very enlightening. Not converting. _Enlightening_. 

Does your wife imagine that a relationship book you've found helpful and on-point can have no merit, just because it has an overtly religious slant? Or does she rather imagine that a relationship book you've found helpful can have no merit, period? Is she interested in healing your marriage? Is she willing to do anything to further that goal? Or is she merely willing to _say_ anything, and actually do not all that much if it means she has to change?


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> She isn't a very good wife especially after cheating on you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We were dating when that incident happened, and I took her back after she begged and pleaded with me, and really seemed to have a change of heart. Now it seems she has forgotten how she felt when she didn't have me for that short period of time.


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> In scanning your other thread I recommend these...
> 
> The Emotionally Unavailable Man: A Blueprint for Healing: Patti Henry: 9781568250960: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> ...


Thank you for the recommendations. I will pick these up and begin reading them today.



> Frequency of fights is NOT the norm... You two will have to learn how to stay different or end it.


I agree with you, but she is adamant that this is normal. I do agree that it is normal to have disagreements with your spouse (or anyone that you live in close contact with for any extended amount of time), but I have never been in such a high-conflict relationship in my life and I think I am under-equipped to deal with it.

I will say, after reading these books, I am much better equipped now than I was four months ago, but I still have a long way to go.


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Rowan said:


> Does your wife imagine that a relationship book you've found helpful and on-point can have no merit, just because it has an overtly religious slant? Or does she rather imagine that a relationship book you've found helpful can have no merit, period? Is she interested in healing your marriage? Is she willing to do anything to further that goal? Or is she merely willing to _say_ anything, and actually do not all that much if it means she has to change?


Actually, she found ways to discredit and discount most of the books I've read in an effort to grow and help our marriage. And yes, often times it feels like she is simply trying to find fault in the things *I* find helpful. She especially disliked _No More Mr. Nice Guy_ when I was telling her about it. She said it was training me to be a misogynistic a-hole. I asked her to read that one with me and she wouldn't participate in that with me either.

I read The 5 Love Languages, which she has been touting since she and I got together, and when I started giving examples from the book, she thought they were ridiculous (the spouse doing acts of service such as laundry or whatever simply because it showed the other spouse that they cared). She interprets that as some kind of forced domestication of a woman by a man.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> Thank you for the recommendations. I will pick these up and begin reading them today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was in your shoes and I refused to live under that high frequency fighting. I've got several resources in my link in my signature if you need any others. Best of luck to you.


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> I was in your shoes and I refused to live under that high frequency fighting. I've got several resources in my link in my signature if you need any others. Best of luck to you.


Thank you. I am open to any and all sources of information and help. I will definitely take a look at the resources in your signature.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

breathedeep said:


> I read The 5 Love Languages, which she has been touting since she and I got together, and when I started giving examples from the book, she thought they were ridiculous (the spouse doing acts of service such as laundry or whatever simply because it showed the other spouse that they cared). She interprets that as some kind of forced domestication of a woman by a man.


A quick side note -

I fall heavily into the acts of service category, but the laundry example would rub me wrong too.

I don't think of laundry as an AoS, it's something adults do to keep their household running. To me, an AoS looks more like defrosting my car on a cold morning, offering me a coffee when I look tired, sharpening my kitchen knives... not the daily chores, but the extra-credit, "I'm thinking about you" type of stuff.

/threadjack


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

breathedeep said:


> In my attempts to grow and make my marriage better, I have read many, many books over the past few months. One of the books that has helped me most is 'Boundaries in Marriage' by Henry Cloud and John Townsend. I found it so helpful that it really has changed my outlook on marriage and life in general.
> 
> I have asked my wife if she would be willing to read it, or at least go through it with me, and she tells me she is not interested because of the many references the authors make to Christianity and to the bible.
> 
> ...


I started looking at your other thread and stopped at this:



> I was active in sports until she and I got married. She felt like it interfered too much with our family time, so I put them on the back burner. I am reconsidering this decision and have decided that once March rolls around again (when the season starts), I'll get back into it.


Instead of trying to get a wife who WILL NEVER CHANGE to read a book in a Nice Guy way to get her to care about you, I suggest that, instead, YOU read the following book. I think it will open your eyes. And it talks specifically about giving up your sports.

http://www.amazon.com/Hold-Your-NUTs-Relationship-Manual/dp/0979054400


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

breathedeep said:


> I agree with you, but she is adamant that this is normal.


So? That's HER opinion. You act like, just because she says so, you have to believe what she believes. Nonsense. And it takes two to fight. Start being smart and walk away when she tries to argue.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

breathedeep said:


> Actually, she found ways to discredit and discount most of the books I've read in an effort to grow and help our marriage. And yes, often times it feels like she is simply trying to find fault in the things *I* find helpful. She especially disliked _No More Mr. Nice Guy_ *when I was telling her about it*.


 Did you really read the book? 'Cos I'm pretty sure what you should have walked away from that book with is that you don't TELL her what you're learning and how you're changing, you just DO IT.

Have you done the exercises the book tells you to do?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Your wife should try reading The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands by Laura Schlessinger. It's got a no nonsense, no BS, no excuses approach. Your wife can get it from audible if she can't be bothered to read it.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

OpenWindows said:


> A quick side note -
> 
> I fall heavily into the acts of service category, but the laundry example would rub me wrong too.
> 
> ...


threadjack your threadjack - thanks for posting that, it was enlightening on how to do better at AOS, of which I fail too often.

end threadjack


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Satya said:


> Your wife should try reading The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands by Laura Schlessinger. It's got a no nonsense, no BS, no excuses approach. Your wife can get it from audible if she can't be bothered to read it.


I believe I have this book on my bookshelf. My wife would NEVER read anything like that, especially by Laura Schlessinger. Again, it paints women as too subservient to their 'man', plus Dr. Laura's religious leanings.

She would be highly offended at me even suggesting she read it.


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

turnera said:


> I started looking at your other thread and stopped at this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That book is on my list as well.

Interestingly enough, I *used* to exercise at least an hour a day. I say 'used to', but I have only since stopped after the new year because my wife continually nagged me that it was taking up too much time from my family obligations and I need to choose my responsibilities to them.

I am going to try to get back started again, as I feel like complete crap now, but its a huge drag listening to her nag me all the time about spending an hour exercising while she is in the room with her 7 year old daughter trying to get her to sleep.


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

turnera said:


> So? That's HER opinion. You act like, just because she says so, you have to believe what she believes. Nonsense. And it takes two to fight. Start being smart and walk away when she tries to argue.


I warn her that when she begins getting verbally abusive and yelling at me, and generally becoming uncivil during an argument that I am going to need to leave for a period of time so that she can cool off. As I posted in my other threads, she says that I am giving her the cold shoulder and that when I ignore her and refuse to talk to her that I am being abusive and manipulative.

After reading 'Boundaries in Marriage', I have a better idea of how to handle this situation now, which I actually had to employ just this morning.


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

turnera said:


> Did you really read the book? 'Cos I'm pretty sure what you should have walked away from that book with is that you don't TELL her what you're learning and how you're changing, you just DO IT.
> 
> Have you done the exercises the book tells you to do?


In the book it says to begin discussing what I am reading and learning with my partner. It also says that my partner will react in one of two ways: either she will 1) appreciate what I am trying to accomplish and respect me more for it and our relationship will grow, or 2) she will resent me and the changes I am trying to make, and our already dead relationship will move more quickly to its inevitable end.

She seems to be in camp number 2.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

breathedeep said:


> I believe I have this book on my bookshelf. My wife would NEVER read anything like that, especially by Laura Schlessinger. Again, it paints women as too subservient to their 'man', plus Dr. Laura's religious leanings.
> 
> She would be highly offended at me even suggesting she read it.


Could you be a little too sensitive towards a woman who has a very lackluster history with you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Could you be a little too sensitive towards a woman who has a very lackluster history with you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you asking if I am assuming her reaction before she is given the opportunity to react?

If so, yes, you are correct. I suppose I could always throw the idea out there; couldn't really hurt at this point.

If that is not what you were asking, would you mind restating your question?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> I warn her that when she begins getting verbally abusive and yelling at me, and generally becoming uncivil during an argument that I am going to need to leave for a period of time so that she can cool off. As I posted in my other threads, she says that I am giving her the cold shoulder and that when I ignore her and refuse to talk to her that I am being abusive and manipulative.
> 
> After reading 'Boundaries in Marriage', I have a better idea of how to handle this situation now, which I actually had to employ just this morning.


Yes, reassuring you will be back to talk and resolve this issues, but for now cool off time ... great job.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

breathedeep said:


> Are you asking if I am assuming her reaction before she is given the opportunity to react?
> 
> If so, yes, you are correct. I suppose I could always throw the idea out there; couldn't really hurt at this point.
> 
> If that is not what you were asking, would you mind restating your question?


Yes to the first part of your post and as to the second.... You come off as far too "nice" of a guy to properly handle your wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

breathedeep said:


> That book is on my list as well.
> 
> Interestingly enough, I *used* to exercise at least an hour a day. I say 'used to', but I have only since stopped after the new year because my wife continually nagged me that it was taking up too much time from my family obligations and I need to choose my responsibilities to them.
> 
> I am going to try to get back started again, as I feel like complete crap now, but its a huge drag listening to her nag me all the time about spending an hour exercising while she is in the room with her 7 year old daughter trying to get her to sleep.


Do some looking into Differentiation


> Differentiation is not about being separate from your partner it is being who you are in the presence of who they are


Books with a basis in religion are of no interest to me so I get why someone would not want to read one. Having said that I would find an alternative book that does sit well with me if needed, it is about being part of a team, not two opposing teams.

Oh and as for laundry being an AoS, well not problem here but like everything in life it is situational dependant. Mr H came from a past marriage where he did pretty much ALL the housework, laundry and was the only bread winner. I actually enjoy doing his laundry and ironing his clothes, he is more than capable of doing his own but any AoS I do is done with love and caring at the core.


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## OpenWindows (Dec 25, 2015)

Acts of service are definitely situational. Different people like different things. 

This wife wants no part of religion or a "traditional" female gender role. I think he when he suggested laundry, she heard "If you love me, you'll clean for me", even though I don't think that's what he meant.

She might be more willing to perform acts of service that don't fit into that female gender role. The specific things that she will do and he will respond to depends on them, of course.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I believe I responded to a previous post of yours. You are somewhat in the opposite situation as alot of women on this site and you are posed in a position more of that of the care taker/ or woman, from what I have read....it's like your roles are reversed. Does your wife remind you of your mother? Did you see your dad fearful of your mom?? I almost get the feeling that you fear your wife's wrath as you do not tend to hold your ground with her. None of this is going to change or get better unless you seek professional help as a couple and you need to lay it out as to what the problem is. Your wife has found someone to walk on, sorry dude but that is exactly what she is doing. You being nice and considerate is not going to make the situation change. You have to find proper boundaries, communicate those to her and stick to them. When she does not come thru on her end there is a repercussion for her not meeting her end. It doesn't mean you have control over her as that does not happen in a healthy relationship but she does have an obligation to meet you half way.


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

AVR1962 said:


> I believe I responded to a previous post of yours. You are somewhat in the opposite situation as alot of women on this site and you are posed in a position more of that of the care taker/ or woman, from what I have read....it's like your roles are reversed. Does your wife remind you of your *mother*? Did you see your *dad* fearful of your mom?? I almost get the feeling that you fear your wife's wrath as you do not tend to hold your ground with her. None of this is going to change or get better unless you seek professional help as a couple and you need to lay it out as to what the problem is. Your wife has found someone to walk on, sorry dude but that is exactly what she is doing. You being nice and considerate is not going to make the situation change. You have to find proper boundaries, communicate those to her and stick to them. When she does not come thru on her end there is a repercussion for her not meeting her end. It doesn't mean you have control over her as that does not happen in a healthy relationship but she does have an obligation to meet you half way.


If you have read _No More Mr. Nice Guy_ my background fits almost perfectly with the background he describes of typical Nice Guys.

My mother left me with my junkie father when I was two years old, so I don't really remember her. My father, as mentioned, was an abusive drug addict at the time, so I didn't live with him very long. I spent most of my childhood hopping from family to family, depending on who would take me in at the time.

I lived with my grandmother and grandfather the most, so I'll think of them as the 'father' and 'mother' in your questions:

My grandmother was a typical subservient wife having grown up in the 40's and 50's. My grandfather was very overbearing, demanding, loud, bullying, and generally struck fear into anyone that had to deal with him. My grandmother was not necessarily 'afraid' of him, but she definitely knew not to cross him.

My father was the same way, when I did live with him. Very controlling to the women who lived with us. They would fight often. My father wasn't really afraid of anyone.

I have scheduled an appointment with a marriage counselor for me and my wife. I know it might sound odd, but I am actually excited to speak with someone about my situation that will see the situation from an unbiased perspective, and that will not immediately discredit and discount my feelings.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> If you have read _No More Mr. Nice Guy_ my background fits almost perfectly with the background he describes of typical Nice Guys.
> 
> My mother left me with my junkie father when I was two years old, so I don't really remember her. My father, as mentioned, was an abusive drug addict at the time, so I didn't live with him very long. I spent most of my childhood hopping from family to family, depending on who would take me in at the time.
> 
> ...


Are you familiar with the ACOA program?


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

breathedeep said:


> In my attempts to grow and make my marriage better, I have read many, many books over the past few months. One of the books that has helped me most is 'Boundaries in Marriage' by Henry Cloud and John Townsend. I found it so helpful that it really has changed my outlook on marriage and life in general.
> 
> I have asked my wife if she would be willing to read it, or at least go through it with me, and she tells me she is not interested because of the many references the authors make to Christianity and to the bible.
> 
> ...


I don't know of any, but there probably are some out there.

I often recommend Boundaries by Henry Cloud; because it has excellent advice. I'm not Christian--but was raised in it--and I did find the constant religious talk a little grating, but I just took it for what it was. The advice was solid, regardless of the religious POV.


ETA:
I'm glad to see some other books out there, because I'd like to add more to my own list.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Kivlor said:


> I don't know of any, but there probably are some out there.
> 
> I often recommend Boundaries by Henry Cloud; because it has excellent advice. I'm not Christian--but was raised in it--and I did find the constant religious talk a little grating, but I just took it for what it was. The advice was solid, regardless of the religious POV.
> 
> I hope someone else has a similar book to recommend, because I'd love to add one to my own list.


Look through the books in the link in my signature line Kiv... many there that float around that subject.


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Are you familiar with the ACOA program?


I have never heard of it, but now that you've mentioned it to me I have done a quick bit of reading and it sounds like something that would be worthwhile to me.

After reading a chapter or two in the N.U.T.S. book, I have begun looking for mens groups in my area and have found a few. I NEVER had a strong male role model growing up, so I believe I could benefit from being a part of that environment as well.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

breathedeep said:


> and when I started giving examples from the book, she thought they were ridiculous (the spouse doing acts of service such as laundry or whatever simply because it showed the other spouse that they cared). She interprets that as some kind of forced domestication of a woman by a man.


:surprise: Ridiculous. What's wrong with taking care of your H in this way if it makes him happy? Geez..... How is doing laundry forced domestication? I just cannot stand this kind of nonsense...

Sorry, I'm not sure I was very helpful, but I think you're being to nice. I have read the entire thread however, and I don't know your back story.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

The Christian references are there for a reason, to give the concept of boundaries or even marriage in general a basis for existing. You would otherwise have a book of just thoughts from another person and I think that your wife would even more strongly reject it as just another person's opinion. 

My wife also has a "why the hell do I have to do that" attitude toward marriage and suspects that any book I show her about the subject is baised toward my "expectations". She is definitely no Christian, however, the references to the Bible show her the ideas in the book don't come from some other "controlling *******" as she accuses me of being.


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Omego said:


> :surprise: Ridiculous. What's wrong with taking care of your H in this way if it makes him happy? Geez..... How is doing laundry forced domestication? I just cannot stand this kind of nonsense...
> 
> Sorry, I'm not sure I was very helpful, but I think you're being to nice. I have read the entire thread however, and I don't know your back story.


I have been meaning to clarify this, but work has been hectic and I haven't had time to post here as much as I would like.

When I wrote about Acts of Service in that post, I was using an example from the book. I believe the book specifically mentions and anecdote in which one spouse doesn't help with chores, and the other spouse feels their spouse does not care about them or their feelings. I mentioned the anecdote to my wife, simply as an example from the book. I went into my marriage knowing my wife does not do housework and I would be doing most of it, so I would be foolish to think she would somehow turn into Martha Stewart after we got married. My love language is not Acts of Service so its not that big of a deal to me, although I do get tired of being the one who does 95% of the housekeeping (again, I take responsibility for this since I knew this about her going into the marriage).

My post made it sound like I asked my wife to do start doing laundry because it would make me happy, which was not the case. Her reaction was the same though. I apologize for the confusion there.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

breathedeep said:


> I warn her that when she begins getting verbally abusive and yelling at me, and generally becoming uncivil during an argument that I am going to need to leave for a period of time so that she can cool off. As I posted in my other threads, she says that I am giving her the cold shoulder and that when I ignore her and refuse to talk to her that I am being abusive and manipulative.
> 
> After reading 'Boundaries in Marriage', I have a better idea of how to handle this situation now, which I actually had to employ just this morning.


Just tell her more firmly that when she escalates the discussion to abuse and yelling that she started the refusing to talk. When she can talk to you in a civil manner you will rejoin the conversation.

She will either diffuse or explode but either way you don't need to put up with being on the receiving end of her temper.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

jb02157 said:


> The Christian references are there for a reason, to give the concept of boundaries or even marriage in general a basis for existing. You would otherwise have a book of just thoughts from another person and I think that your wife would even more strongly reject it as just another person's opinion.
> 
> My wife also has a "why the hell do I have to do that" attitude toward marriage and suspects that any book I show her about the subject is baised toward my "expectations". She is definitely no Christian, however, the references to the Bible show her the ideas in the book don't come from some other "controlling *******" as she accuses me of being.


To a non-Christian, or Atheist, Biblical references are the same "thoughts from another person" and perceived to be just as biased and controlling as you say she sees those other authors. At least a book author is a real person and not a series of tales handed down over centuries with multiple rewrites and translations.

It's the same as someone pulling out the Quran in a discussion with a Christian and using that as proof for a point. The Bible is only authoritative if you wish to believe that it is.

This isn't intended to start a religious debate, I'm just trying to explain how your reasoning sounds to a non-Christian.


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

WonkyNinja said:


> Just tell her more firmly that when she escalates the discussion to abuse and yelling that she started the refusing to talk. When she can talk to you in a civil manner you will rejoin the conversation.
> 
> She will either diffuse or explode but either way you don't need to put up with being on the receiving end of her temper.


This is good advice and what I did in the past. After reading 'Boundaries', I have changed my approach to something more like:

"Dear Wife", I know you are upset with me right now, but your behavior is unacceptable. I am going to leave for 30 minutes in order to give both of us some time to cool off. When I return, if you we can have a discussion in a civil manner, I will be happy to pick up where we left off.

I leave and return in 30 minutes as I've told her I would.

She still doesn't like it, but at least I set the boundary and I give her a time that I will return so that she doesn't 'think I've abandoned her.'


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## John D Spinks (Feb 5, 2016)

breathedeep said:


> Actually, she found ways to discredit and discount most of the books I've read in an effort to grow and help our marriage. And yes, often times it feels like she is simply trying to find fault in the things *I* find helpful. She especially disliked _No More Mr. Nice Guy_ when I was telling her about it. She said it was training me to be a misogynistic a-hole. I asked her to read that one with me and she wouldn't participate in that with me either.
> 
> I read The 5 Love Languages, which she has been touting since she and I got together, and when I started giving examples from the book, she thought they were ridiculous (the spouse doing acts of service such as laundry or whatever simply because it showed the other spouse that they cared). She interprets that as some kind of forced domestication of a woman by a man.


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## John D Spinks (Feb 5, 2016)

RE (the spouse doing acts of service such as laundry or whatever simply because it showed the other spouse that they cared). She interprets that as some kind of forced domestication of a woman by a man.

If doing any reasonable acts of service made a spouse feel loved which brought the couple closer emotionally together, and helped the marriage, why would that be resisted? Would that be either ignorance of how it could affect the marriage or the simple choice not to do whatever it takes to help the marriage which would show that the marriage wasn't valued?


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

John D Spinks said:


> RE (the spouse doing acts of service such as laundry or whatever simply because it showed the other spouse that they cared). She interprets that as some kind of forced domestication of a woman by a man.
> 
> If doing any reasonable acts of service made a spouse feel loved which brought the couple closer emotionally together, and helped the marriage, why would that be resisted? Would that be either ignorance of how it could affect the marriage or the simple choice not to do whatever it takes to help the marriage which would show that the marriage wasn't valued?


It's a good question. Some people just don't see it that way, though. I hate feet (no, like I REALLY hate touching feet), but if my wife said her feet hurt after a long day at work and asked me to rub them, first I'd ask her to wash them, then I'd rub them no problem.

To my wife though, doing housework is some kind of trigger for her and she all but refuses to do it. I always get a laugh (to myself) when I am downstairs doing the dishes at 9:30 at night and she knows I've been down there for 30 minutes or so cleaning the kitchen (after 2 adults and 4 children) and she knows I am finishing up, so she sends me a text:

wife: Hey is there anything I can help you with?

me: I'm almost done, but sure, if you'd like.

She then begrudgingly comes downstairs and proceeds to prop up against the counter while she plays her phone games and talks about whatever events from the day are on her mind. Meanwhile I continue cleaning the kitchen.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

I'm trying really hard to figure out why on God's green Earth you have to try to teach a grown adult that there are boundaries in marriage and that one must accept responsibility for their actions. That's something she should have known well before she married anyone.



breathedeep said:


> Interestingly enough, I *used* to exercise at least an hour a day. I say 'used to', but I have only since stopped after the new year because my wife continually nagged me that it was taking up too much time from my family obligations and I need to choose my responsibilities to them.


Have you explained to your wife that, if you aren't keeping fit, you may not be alive to spend time with the family?



breathedeep said:


> I warn her that when she begins getting verbally abusive and yelling at me, and generally becoming uncivil during an argument that I am going to need to leave for a period of time so that she can cool off. As I posted in my other threads, she says that I am giving her the cold shoulder and that when I ignore her and refuse to talk to her that I am being abusive and manipulative.
> 
> After reading 'Boundaries in Marriage', I have a better idea of how to handle this situation now, which I actually had to employ just this morning.


I wouldn't sugar coat it. I'd straight up tell her "You began yelling and being abusive. Me "giving you the cold shoulder" is quite a natural and normal response to that kind of behavior. If you do not want "the cold shoulder", don't yell or become abusive when we interact."

Even very young children are able to understand that concept.



breathedeep said:


> In the book it says to begin discussing what I am reading and learning with my partner. It also says that my partner will react in one of two ways: either she will 1) appreciate what I am trying to accomplish and respect me more for it and our relationship will grow, or 2) she will resent me and the changes I am trying to make, and our already dead relationship will move more quickly to its inevitable end.
> 
> She seems to be in camp number 2.


And, knowing this, you're still trying. I don't know if I should commend you or smack you with a 2x4!





breathedeep said:


> I have scheduled an appointment with a marriage counselor for me and my wife. I know it might sound odd, but I am actually excited to speak with someone about my situation that will see the situation from an unbiased perspective, and that will not immediately discredit and discount my feelings.


I am very sad for you. That you have to go to forums or a counselor or a men's group to have someone listen to you and not discount your feelings is heartbreaking.



breathedeep said:


> I went into my marriage knowing my wife does not do housework and I would be doing most of it, so I would be foolish to think she would somehow turn into Martha Stewart after we got married. My love language is not Acts of Service so its not that big of a deal to me, although I do get tired of being the one who does 95% of the housekeeping (again, I take responsibility for this since I knew this about her going into the marriage).
> 
> My post made it sound like I asked my wife to do start doing laundry because it would make me happy, which was not the case. Her reaction was the same though. I apologize for the confusion there.


How about you tell her to freakin help around the house because she lives there? No debate, no excuses, simply because anyone living in a home should be responsible for at least a portion of the home's upkeep.

You can't nice or reason her into behaving like a civilized adult or make her be responsible. With someone like her, you can either calmly and firmly draw a line and put your foot down, stay with her as is and accept it, or leave.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

breathedeep said:


> This is good advice and what I did in the past. After reading 'Boundaries', I have changed my approach to something more like:
> 
> "Dear Wife", I know you are upset with me right now, but your behavior is unacceptable. I am going to leave for 30 minutes in order to give both of us some time to cool off. When I return, if you we can have a discussion in a civil manner, I will be happy to pick up where we left off.
> 
> ...


I spent nearly 20 years trying to mitigate my XW's mood swings, so to some extent my advice above was bravado and what I wished I had done.

It gets very very tiring living like this but you have the same problem I had in that "you should know how to speak to me", "you should have said that a different way".

You may have to consider putting the ball in her court with "I cannot live the rest of my life like this, you get help with the anger and the outbursts or we divorce". Even in MC my XW refused to see my point of view over a major issue, that was when I knew there was no way forwards.

The stress of living like this will take it's toll on you both mentally and physically. I didn't realize how stressful it was until after I left, and it takes a long time to recover your self esteem but it is so worth it.


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

MJJEAN said:


> I'm trying really hard to figure out why on God's green Earth you have to try to teach a grown adult that there are boundaries in marriage and that one must accept responsibility for their actions. That's something she should have known well before she married anyone.


To be fair, I didn't understand boundaries until I began reading about them more. Since she won't read the book, or any book on the subject, I have tried discussing it, but she gets very defensive and it always ends in an argument. Sometimes its just easier to not bring up the issues so there is no arguing.




> Have you explained to your wife that, if you aren't keeping fit, you may not be alive to spend time with the family?


She understands this, as she and I used to do crossfit together. She used to say things like: "Go ahead and exercise. Take all the time you need." But then if I took what she thought was too much time, she would complain and ask me why I didn't love her anymore, why I am avoiding her, etc... Now she has switched to telling me that there isn't enough time in the day for me to exercise and that I have family responsibilities to take care of. Keep in mind I only exercised before the children got up in the morning, or after all the children went to bed. In other words, I am cutting into the time she and I spend together (nevermind she and I work together, go to lunch together, and pretty much are together 24/7). If I am not upstairs and in the bed beside her at 9:15pm holding her, she feels like I am abandoning her. I NEVER have any time to myself, which is odd because of how much she used to say to me, "I want you to go out and have friends, and I want you to spend time doing things by yourself that you enjoy." Now I realize that she was only trying to convince herself when she said those things.



> And, knowing this, you're still trying. I don't know if I should commend you or smack you with a 2x4!


This is very difficult for me, as I want to do what I can to make my marriage work, but I am also tired of getting run over and being beaten down emotionally. I made a decision and a commitment and I want to honor that. I will say (and I have told her this), I am beginning to wear down emotionally, and I am beginning to feel like letting go and moving on. It is also difficult for me for selfish reasons, as I don't want to have yet another failed marriage.

My wife told me the other day that she now understands why all of my previous relationships have failed, and I need to look at the common denominator (me). I told her that she didn't have to point that out to me because she has convinced me that I am not marriage material.



> I am very sad for you. That you have to go to forums or a counselor or a men's group to have someone listen to you and not discount your feelings is heartbreaking.


I do not want to complain to my friends or family. That is a line I just do not want to cross. This forum is a good way for me to vent and get help/advice anonymously, so that I do not feel like I am betraying my wife's trust. Once we start seeing the counselor, I hope that I can speak honestly about the things I've spoken about here, but until that time comes, these are my options. When I've tried discussing my feelings with my wife in the past, she has called me a pu$$y, told me to stop being so sensitive, told me that my feelings are wrong or ridiculous, and/or told me that I am reading her or the situation wrong. Honestly, I feel like I am being gaslighted much of the time.



> How about you tell her to freakin help around the house because she lives there? No debate, no excuses, simply because anyone living in a home should be responsible for at least a portion of the home's upkeep.


I asked her to help in the beginning, but she would get highly upset with me. She said that her ex husband was controlling and that she would never have a man control her again. She also told me that she works all day long and when she has free time, doing dishes or vacuuming is the last thing she wants to do.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> I have never heard of it, but now that you've mentioned it to me I have done a quick bit of reading and it sounds like something that would be worthwhile to me.
> 
> After reading a chapter or two in the N.U.T.S. book, I have begun looking for mens groups in my area and have found a few. I NEVER had a strong male role model growing up, so I believe I could benefit from being a part of that environment as well.


An ACOA group will help you tremendously.... I can already tell you take WAY more responsibility for your relationship than you should. It will help you rebalance.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> To be fair, I didn't understand boundaries until I began reading about them more. Since she won't read the book, or any book on the subject, I have tried discussing it, but she gets very defensive and it always ends in an argument. Sometimes its just easier to not bring up the issues so there is no arguing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh boy... you have your hands full. You are doing the ABSOLUTE best thing by expanding your circle and letting experienced people AND professionals come along side you to support you in figuring out your best path. Keep on keeping on.


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> An ACOA group will help you tremendously.... I can already tell you take WAY more responsibility for your relationship than you should. It will help you rebalance.


Reading through _No More Mr. Nice Guy_ was another "AHA" moment for me.

The author states that when we are children, we ARE the center of our universe. We are completely and utterly dependent on our parents and others for our care and well-being. Because we have this egocentric point of view, when good things happen around us, we feel that we are responsible, and when bad things happen around us, we also feel responsible. So when we aren't getting the love and attention that we need as children, we think that we are bad and must have done something bad to deserve not getting our emotional and physical needs met. As we grow into adulthood with this world-view, if it is not corrected, we begin seeing everything around us this way, from our jobs to our relationships. We feel we are solely responsible for the failure or success of our relationships. It is difficult to admit this, but this is how I've always felt. Sometimes to the degree of even feeling responsible for things going on around me that I wasn't even involved in.

That book was eye-opening to me, and definitely helped me understand why I feel and act the way I do.

Reading and learning about this was the easy part; the difficult part is turning the knowledge into sustained action and change.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Did you finish Hold On To Your N.U.T.s?


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

turnera said:


> Did you finish Hold On To Your N.U.T.s?


Not yet. I believe I purchased it for my Kindle one or two days ago and have only had time to get a chapter or two in. This being the weekend, I hope that I can make good progress on it.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

breathedeep said:


> To be fair, I didn't understand boundaries until I began reading about them more. Since she won't read the book, or any book on the subject, I have tried discussing it, but she gets very defensive and it always ends in an argument. Sometimes its just easier to not bring up the issues so there is no arguing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good Lord! Forget divorce, I don't know how you haven't committed homicide! You seem to have married a spoiled and entitled princess.

Everything you've written put together, I'd say this is going to end one of two ways. Either you'll accept comfortable misery in order to avoid a 2nd divorce or you'll decide that you can't and shouldn't have to live like this and leave. I don't see her changing.

You can't work on a marriage alone and she has no interest in even trying.

You may also remind her that the common denominator in HER failed relationships is HER. Just sayin'

If you left this marriage, that wouldn't mean you aren't marriage material. It would mean that you need to get your wife selector re-calibrated.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> Good Lord! Forget divorce, I don't know how you haven't committed homicide! You seem to have married a spoiled and entitled princess.
> 
> Everything you've written put together, I'd say this is going to end one of two ways. Either you'll accept comfortable misery in order to avoid a 2nd divorce or you'll decide that you can't and shouldn't have to live like this and leave. I don't see her changing.
> 
> ...


100% agree


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Last night, she and I went out on our bi-weekly date and apparently I was being a little more outgoing and gregarious than usual. While we were talking, she sat back in her chair and said, "Where is this alpha-male $h-t coming from?!"

I take that as a sign I'm doing something right.


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## JJXmomma (Feb 1, 2016)

I just read through most of this thread and it seems like you have tried so hard not to be like the controlling men in your family that you've gone to the other extreme. Now you are allowing her to knock you around.

I wouldn't try to get her to read books at all. What's the point? She's just going to belittle every little point or opinion she doesn't agree with. She also will know exactly what you're trying to do if you try to follow some advice and she'll probably belittle you for that too. 

You need to learn to stand up for yourself. Standing up for yourself doesn't mean controlling her, which seems to be her fear. It just means not tolerating mistreatment from her. Walking away, saying you won't allow yourself to be talked to that way, pointing out how insulted you are when she calls you overly sensitive or calls you names. No one should tolerate that. 

I say keep reading your books and following what resonates with you. If she loves and respects you she'll have no choice but to adapt.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> Last night, she and I went out on our bi-weekly date and apparently I was being a little more outgoing and gregarious than usual. While we were talking, she sat back in her chair and said, "Where is this alpha-male $h-t coming from?!"
> 
> I take that as a sign I'm doing something right.


Just keep studying


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Just keep studying


That's the plan.

We had a huge fight today after sex. She didn't like how I did something or an expression on my face at some point, so she quit in the middle.

Our first counseling session is Feb 11. I have never looked so forward to seeing a therapist.

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I'll keep you updated on how our MC sessions go.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> That's the plan.
> 
> We had a huge fight today after sex. She didn't like how I did something or an expression on my face at some point, so she quit in the middle.
> 
> ...


Ugh... Sorry. What in the world?


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ugh... Sorry. What in the world?


She is unable to orgasm through penetration alone, so one of us will either manually stimulate her during, or afterward, she will manually stimulate herself until orgasm. It has been this way with us for three years now, and I have never had a problem with it. I completely understand that some women just can't. Ok, no worries.

So...

she was manually stimulating herself during, and she thinks that she saw me roll my eyes at her, so she ends things and goes to the bathroom. I go ask her if everything is ok, and she immediately jumps in saying, "If you are so unhappy that I cannot orgasm, you should just tell me instead of rolling your eyes!" I was completely surprised by this because 1) that thought never crossed my mind, and 2) why accuse me of something straight out instead of asking me. I told her that thought never entered my mind and I'm not sure why she would think that. She said she was going by my actions and I asked her she wouldn't ask me about it first instead seeing some expression on my face during sex that she interpreted as me rolling my eyes because I was unhappy with her. This set her off and she began screaming and yelling at me.

This is when the lessons from 'Boundaries' kicked in. I told her she needed to calm down and stop yelling at me or we would have to continue the discussion when she could have a civil conversation with me. She continued to yell at me, and I reiterated that she needed to calm down. She did, and I said to her, "You have been asking me why we do not have sex as much as we used to - well this is why. When you behave like this during or after sex, it puts tremendous stress and pressure on me to perform and I cannot take the pressure anymore. When you cry during or after sex, or get upset at me during or after sex because I didn't do something right, it makes me feel very anxious and pressured." She responded, "Well, that's on you!" I responded to her, "Yes, I own that I feel that way. That is mine, but I am trying to explain how your behavior makes me feel." She responded, "You have some very stupid and F&cked up ideas about sex and relationships." I told her that was exactly why I don't talk to her about my feelings anymore, because she doesn't respect my feelings and all she does is put me down and discount my feelings.

When she said that, it really hurt my feelings again because she constantly discounts my feelings. Anyway, we argued a little more until she realized she was late to pick up her daughter and she had to leave. While she was gone, she texted me these texts... her texts are in yellow.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Totally get it, but I see a bit of progress. Keep studying and practicing the boundaries, good listening, be patient. 

Bad night, shake it off, tomorrow is a new day with a new try. Tell her you are sorry yall got sideways and you are committed to better relationship skills. Deal with her side later. 

Don't stew on this one too long. 

Just get back to work on the new skills in the morning.

Therapy is just a few days away.


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Totally get it, but I see a bit of progress. Keep studying and practicing the boundaries, good listening, be patient.
> 
> Bad night, shake it off, tomorrow is a new day with a new try. Tell her you are sorry yall got sideways and you are committed to better relationship skills. Deal with her side later.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I will do just that.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Remember, you are both in pain, you both have valid points, but be encouraged that you are learning the skills that break these destructive cycles. Boundaries are pattern interupts. This is just the beginning of big changes. Hang tight.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> She is unable to orgasm through penetration alone, so one of us will either manually stimulate her during, or afterward, she will manually stimulate herself until orgasm. It has been this way with us for three years now, and I have never had a problem with it. I completely understand that some women just can't. Ok, no worries.
> 
> So...
> 
> ...


bd,

I think she just *really* wants to be told what to do.

Talk less. She doesn't know why she behaves this way, can't explain it to herself and certainly can't explain it to you.

You want to do what's best for her, but you'll probably only make her happy (if that's possible), by focusing on what's best for you.

Stop trying to discuss books and ideas with her, you're not going to be able to change her via logic and reason. Use this information to influence your own actions.

You also mentioned earlier that she wanted you to be rougher and more dominant in bed. This doesn't fit well with her controlling the action in the sack. She may say she wants to, but I'm pretty sure she doesn't.

Stop talking about your feelings. She thinks that you having feelings means that you are weak.

I'm not sure that you want to do any of this stuff (I wouldn't want to), but I suspect this is the only way it will work out.


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> bd,I think she just *really* wants to be told what to do.


This has come up in a few of my other posts, and I think that you are right. I have really been taking a new approach to this, which I think she's noticed as was seen when she asked me "What's with this alpha-male $h*t?"



> Talk less. She doesn't know why she behaves this way, can't explain it to herself and certainly can't explain it to you.
> 
> You want to do what's best for her, but you'll probably only make her happy (if that's possible), by focusing on what's best for you.


This is a big lesson I learned through reading _No More Mr. Nice Guy_, _N.U.T.S_, and _Boundaries_. Since reading those books, I have gone through a tremendous mental paradigm shift. I realize now that my happiness isn't tied to anyone's behavior but mine. Now when she gets angry, screams and degrades me, I let it roll off of my back. It is actually very liberating.



> Stop trying to discuss books and ideas with her, you're not going to be able to change her via logic and reason. Use this information to influence your own actions.


Agreed. During our disagreement last night I was using active listening and other techniques from the books I've read and she said, "Oh stop giving me that crap from your little books. I don't need to hear it." I have realized that she isn't interested in hearing how I am trying to grow as a person, and make our relationship better in the process.



> Stop talking about your feelings. She thinks that you having feelings means that you are weak.


She has actually said this to me in the past. She said that before she met me, she would never have dated someone like me and that she always saw caring guys that actually had feelings as weak. She says that it took her a long time to get used to that with me, but I think she still feels the way she used to and is just trying to convince herself.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> I think she's noticed as was seen when she asked me "What's with this alpha-male $h*t?


You: "Just learning to deal with your alpha-female sh*t."


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

It has been my experience that most people do not want to be told that they need to read something to learn how to think and act. Somehow my wife and I managed to have a very happy, great in fact, marriage for over 40 years by just talking to each other. Know one else's idea of what a marriage should be and how we should think. I think what you did will elicit the same kind of reaction when someone attends a self help seminar and then bugs others about how great it is and how it opened your eyes and try to get them to attend. You may see it as such but what you are doing is telling your wife that she needs to change her way of thinking which implies that you do not care for the way she is. Just my opinion being on both sides of that coin a few times. Now I just let people be who they are and if I want a change, I change myself. I never found a lasting answer from a book. Marriages are living organisms that grow and change over time. I know that ours has changed several times over the decades and what worked for us 30 years ago, does not work now. If you have something to say to your wife, just say it and not give her a book implying that she needs to learn to be how you want her to be. YMMV


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## breathedeep (Nov 8, 2015)

Just a quick follow up. We had our first MC session today and I thought it went well, although she did not. She sent me a text afterward saying she didn't think she could do it and that she didn't think she could change. I asked her why she thought that and she responded that she's been the way she is a long time and has never seen the type of behavior we were discussing modeled to her. I told her that I know it is a big change in behavior for both of us, but that I know that we can do it because we both want to be better for and to each other. I told her that I would be there to help her the entire process, but then she reiterated that she didn't think she could do it, then apologized, and said she was sorry, but she was just being honest.

I am not getting too worried yet as I know it is our first day and I think as we continue to attend MC, she will see the positive changes in both of us and realize she really can do it. That is my hope, anyway.

Thanks again to everyone who has helped me with this; you have been a very integral part of my growth over the last few months and I appreciate it sincerely.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

breathedeep said:


> Just a quick follow up. We had our first MC session today and I thought it went well, although she did not. She sent me a text afterward saying she didn't think she could do it and that she didn't think she could change. I asked her why she thought that and she responded that she's been the way she is a long time and has never seen the type of behavior we were discussing modeled to her. I told her that I know it is a big change in behavior for both of us, but that I know that we can do it because we both want to be better for and to each other. *I told her that I would be there to help her the entire process*, but then she reiterated that she didn't think she could do it, then apologized, and said she was sorry, but she was just being honest.
> 
> I am not getting too worried yet as I know it is our first day and I think as we continue to attend MC, she will see the positive changes in both of us and realize she really can do it. That is my hope, anyway.
> 
> Thanks again to everyone who has helped me with this; you have been a very integral part of my growth over the last few months and I appreciate it sincerely.


Don't say that you'll help her; tell her she *has* to do it. Remember, she wants to be told. Having it on her scares her.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

She doesn't have a choice or yall are done.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I suspect your wife hides behind her bravado and chooses to see herself as superior to you in the past. 
She does not know how to handle the changing you, the 'new' you because you may wake up one morning and realise she is not as great as she thinks she is. 
In other words she is scared. She too has alot of stuff to weed out and deal with. Nevertheless you keep going to MC regardless of whether she goes or not. Your responsibility is to yourself only, to become a better man. If she does not want to become a better woman, then that is on her. But she will eventually realise as you change that it may not be so easy for her to move on with you/or without you. Let her come to her own conclusions on this.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

aine said:


> I suspect your wife hides behind her bravado and chooses to see herself as superior to you in the past.
> She does not know how to handle the changing you, the 'new' you because you may wake up one morning and realise she is not as great as she thinks she is.
> In other words she is scared. She too has alot of stuff to weed out and deal with. Nevertheless you keep going to MC regardless of whether she goes or not. Your responsibility is to yourself only, to become a better man. If she does not want to become a better woman, then that is on her. But she will eventually realise as you change that it may not be so easy for her to move on with you/or without you. Let her come to her own conclusions on this.


Agree and as she sees you more balanced, sees its not scary, she may want it for herself. There is peace and fun that comes with the changes, so be patient with her for a reasonable timeframe. But, at the end of the day, she is severe enough, that the clock is short on this chaos. She will need to get it together soon. No one can live in this degree of intense chaos for long. Focus on your paper, it may pay off with this relationship, but if it doesn't, you'll be prepared for the next.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

breathedeep said:


> If you have read _No More Mr. Nice Guy_ my background fits almost perfectly with the background he describes of typical Nice Guys.
> 
> My mother left me with my junkie father when I was two years old, so I don't really remember her. My father, as mentioned, was an abusive drug addict at the time, so I didn't live with him very long. I spent most of my childhood hopping from family to family, depending on who would take me in at the time.
> 
> ...


You have been thru ALOT and this all makes sense now. I too had a situation as a child that was not ideal, born to teenage parents with a sibling that was born a week short of a year after I was born. I too spent a great deal of time with my grandparents and my grand father was like yours and my Gma was like you described your Gma. I was very very close to my grand parents but I think that caused friction (hard feelings) for my mom as I became older, she and I just kind of butted heads. All this stuff really does a number on you. I wish you all the best with your counselor and trying to get your life together.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

breathedeep said:


> Actually, she found ways to discredit and discount most of the books I've read in an effort to grow and help our marriage. And yes, often times it feels like she is simply trying to find fault in the things *I* find helpful. She especially disliked _No More Mr. Nice Guy_ when I was telling her about it. She said it was training me to be a misogynistic a-hole. I asked her to read that one with me and she wouldn't participate in that with me either.
> 
> I read The 5 Love Languages, which she has been touting since she and I got together, and when I started giving examples from the book, she thought they were ridiculous (the spouse doing acts of service such as laundry or whatever simply because it showed the other spouse that they cared). She interprets that as some kind of forced domestication of a woman by a man.


OK.

I've only gotten so far in this thread, and I already feel I need to chime in here.

You know your wife chose you second when you were dating, right?

And you took her anyway.

Now, you have a borderline abusive marriage, and you take your punches and come back on your knees asking her to help you make it better?

She doesn't want to make it better. 

She wants what she has -- an easily controlled spouse who asks for nothing and does everything. Who chooses the marriage when she chooses to fight, or chooses other people or things instead of the marriage.

What fun that must be - to have someone run to fix the marriage as you get whatever you want in this world.

You're an enabler, man. Pure and simple. You chose this path.

And now that you're here, in this place, what are you going to choose now?

Because you're not going to change her mind with words. Hell, you're not likely to change her mind even with actions.

But mark my words, your slim chance at making this marriage better comes with it a heavy cost of having it be likely that you will risk losing it.

If you have a 95% chance of loosing the marriage and a 5% chance of making it better, are you willing to do that?


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