# Dealing with the disconnect



## Mired (Nov 8, 2020)

I guess it's been a long time coming and mostly of my own making. As much as I dislike the term I am the stereotypical nice guy. I play my part around the home, jump to requests, treat her as well as I can think of and somehow thought it would be good enough. That I would be good enough. 

She's ambitious, independent, strong willed and by her own description materialistic. I've known this from the start and I indulged her to the point of spoiling her rotten. 

The next few weeks leading up to Christmas are going to be hectic for us both. I have a new property development opening up and she has a big court case which is eating up most of her time. So we thought it would be good to get things like gifts out of the way early. From my side I already knew what I'd be doing but she feels its impossible to get anything for me. The standard reasons apply. I'm content with very little, if there is something I do need or want I just get it. I'm picky when it comes to big purchases and tend to spend a lot of time doing research to get the best of what I'm looking for at the right price. 

So it ended up with me sending what I thought was an innocent note requesting her to just let go a bit when we went on holiday at the end of the year. The crux of it was that all I wanted from her was just to let her hair down for a change and occasionally be the one to initiate sex. If she really had to get something I'd be happy with some work shirts. 

We went to a birthday party for one of her friends last night, I was designated for the drive but overall we had fun. I felt it had been a good night out without issue and then it kicked in when we got home. In Vino Veritas. We got to spend the next few hours lecturing about how awful my request was. How she still loved me but couldn't live up to my expectations. Followed by the kicker that I should just get someone on the side who could match my desires. 

I'm sitting there puzzled about where this was coming from. Things have been good between us for a time now. At her insistence we had a Halloween role-playing party for the two of us just last week. Now I'm being accused of using her past behavior against her and setting unrealistic expectations. 

Little sleep later and as I take her a cup of tea this morning she's awake and apologizing for last night. She's embarrassed about the cruel things she said and I shouldn't take any of it to heart. 

The damage is done though. It's amazing the things you learn when someone speaks their mind without a filter. 

So, how do you deal with the disconnect? 

I'd thought we were doing well but the moment I asked for slightly more of my wife it exploded in my face.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Were you drunk when you told her all you wanted for Christmas was sexual favors?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Were you drunk when you told her all you wanted for Christmas was sexual favors?


Oh boy, that's funny!


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Mired, I hope DownByTheRiver's response shows you how your request came off. I just think there's a time and place for everything, and I'm not sure asking your wife to initiate sex as your Christmas present was the time and was incredibly out of place. You told the story as innocently as you possibly could to convey that you meant no harm, but that doesn't mean no harm was done. I would have been offended and I don't even have a past to defend.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Wow. I guess I must be a really dumb guy too. (Although I've never had a woman react to me quite like that.)

I never thought asking your wife for sex was such an outrageous and insensitive offence.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

jorgegene said:


> Wow. I guess I must be a really dumb guy too. (Although I've never had a woman react to me quite like that.)
> 
> I never thought asking your wife for sex was such an outrageous and insensitive offence.


You took it out of context and completely over simplified the issue. Was that on purpose? Or did you really not understand the scenario?


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Mired said:


> ...sending what I thought was an innocent note requesting her to just let go a bit...


What exactly did your "innocent note" say? I can see the request being a playful thing, or a trainwreck.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

If you're in an exclusive relationship having sex, then when is it a good time to bring up sex?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Were you drunk when you told her all you wanted for Christmas was sexual favors?


Let's hear how you would handle this?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

OP: Assuming you were not a ass about it you did nothing wrong and ask for nothing unreasonable. Take it to heart. Stop being so nice. Detach.

Honestly she told you the truth and how she really feels, maybe it's time for you to find someone else. Before you do I would divorce though, morals aside even though you have a pass, if you meet someone you like you will be unable to pursue it because you will be married.

Let your wife pursue her career that is her priority.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jorgegene said:


> Wow. I guess I must be a really dumb guy too. (Although I've never had a woman react to me quite like that.)
> 
> I never thought asking your wife for sex was such an outrageous and insensitive offence.



No those are just the women you try not to marry. Plenty of women like sex.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Let's hear how you would handle this?


I wouldn't demand sex for Christmas. I would assess how much mutual desire there was for sex on both sides in the marriage and then decide if sex was my Number 1 priority (pathetic but common), and make decisions accordingly. Maybe he needs to be single, but one day he will get old and still have a lack of sex problem. He hasn't said he DOES have a lack of sex problem. What he basically said is he wants her to initiate. So yes, it sounds like he wants it more than her or wants her to pretend to want to initiate, which I imagine she would if that was how she is or if that was her desire. What's it worth if in order to get someone to initiate, you have to pretty much demand it of them? I'll never understand that. It's like saying, Pretend you're hot for me at times when that's not even on your mind. It's worthless for the woman and should be worthless for any self-respecting man. 

But hey, benefit of the doubt, maybe he didn't mean it the way it sounded. Maybe she's been initiating sex all week with him and all he's saying is I'll be happy through Christmas if that's all I get. And some shirts.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I wouldn't demand sex for Christmas. I would assess how much mutual desire there was for sex on both sides in the marriage and then decide if sex was my Number 1 priority (pathetic but common), and make decisions accordingly. Maybe he needs to be single, but one day he will get old and still have a lack of sex problem. He hasn't said he DOES have a lack of sex problem. What he basically said is he wants her to initiate. So yes, it sounds like he wants it more than her or wants her to pretend to want to initiate, which I imagine she would if that was how she is or if that was her desire. What's it worth if in order to get someone to initiate, you have to pretty much demand it of them? I'll never understand that. It's like saying, Pretend you're hot for me at times when that's not even on your mind. It's worthless for the woman and should be worthless for any self-respecting man.
> 
> But hey, benefit of the doubt, maybe he didn't mean it the way it sounded. Maybe she's been initiating sex all week with him and all he's saying is I'll be happy through Christmas if that's all I get. And some shirts.


That truly deserved repeating.

Seriously guys, why did this have to turn into the man never getting sex? And why on earth did he have to be told to divorce his wife?

He asked her to INITIATE. That doesn't mean they never have sex. And it doesn't mean it was the right time or purpose for him to ask her to do something that she is uncomfortable doing, like lots of women are. Like DownByTheRiver said, he's asking her to fake it, which lots of women are also uncomfortable doing. And he's asking her to do it soon because they're celebrating Christmas early.

To be clear, I don't ever want to be ASKED to initiate. However, I'm not certain I would feel the same about his situation if he asked her to initiate for his birthday or Valentine's Day. But I sure wouldn't want Christmas to turn into being about that. It's a level of discomfort that would cast a shadow over my holiday.

The underlying problem is she apparently has a past that she felt he was trying to exploit by this demand on her discomfort. So she went off on him. That's what he's upset about because he feels she said things that drove a wedge between them.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Don’t read too much into what she said, she was drunk and she is clearly stressed out. We have all said dumb things when we were drinking. Let it go.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> Don’t read too much into what she said, she was drunk and she is clearly stressed out. We have all said dumb things when we were drinking. Let it go.


I like this advice.. sometimes is good to let things slide and not make a big deal out of it!


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Mired said:


> She's embarrassed about the *cruel things* she said and I shouldn't take any of it to heart.


You are picky and difficult to buy for. You asked for what you truly wanted, but she said no--ugly, but worse than no actually. Just how cruel was she? I'd let it go as has been suggested. Your choice, you can just relive it over and over and feel the pain OR you can smile, say 'thank you so much', never mind, REFUSE to discuss it period. Let her wonder about your reaction. Of course your plan is not a side piece, but this response might cause her to review her drunken snark.

Hope I'm not causing instigating a war...


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I think it's wonderful when a guy doesn't want me to spend money on him. Just be my wonderful self and a little extra.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

> just let go a bit when we went on holiday at the end of the year. The crux of it was that all I wanted from her was just to let her hair down for a change and occasionally be the one to initiate sex.





> Were you drunk when you told her all you wanted for Christmas was sexual favors?


Yeah that reads exactly the same to me.



> Followed by the kicker that I should just get someone on the side who could match my desires.


She says this to him, and still you have the typical white knights come to HER defense. What a joke. She basically told him she would rather he sleep with other women then have to be with him. This is how much she values their vow of celibacy in their marriage to each other and yet the white knights basically blame him, he must have made her say it. OP she told you to **** off. 

I stand by my point. It's perfectly reasonable to ask your spouse to let their hair down and to participate in having more physical intimacy including initiating. There is nothing unreasonable or even unexpected about it. If you ask someone to give you their celibacy it's implied that you will be the person supplying that very common and expected need that people have. That means actively participating, not begrudgingly doing it. I say people because this is not a man or a women thing. I point to a prominent very long standing post on this board that was started by and it's participants are women, yet it's the same issue.

Besides that most people like and want to have sex with their spouse. The ones who don't are the ones with the problem, assuming their spouse is not an ass, and OP deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven other wise. She is the one apologizing remember?

If you make someone promise to only eat the food that you cook for the rest of your life, and then you only feed them once and a while when you feel up to it, your not a good partner. Or if they have to ask you to feed them all the time and you basically tell them to go eat somewhere else, you have failed as a partner period. I think everyone understands this. It's only because it's sex does this become an issue or the request somehow become unreasonable.

If she is physically able then OP bottom line is assuming you didn't demand sex but made a reasonable request, also assuming you have not gotten grossly over weight and have proper hygiene, have not treated your wife continually unkind, and have tried to engage your wife emotionally, then you have every right to want an active engaging physical relationship, with her as an active participant. You made a reasonable request and she attacked you and told you to find someone else.

What do you want us to say? What advice can we give you? She didn't even say, she knows something is wrong an she wants to fix it, she told you to get over it. She told you to go get that need filled somewhere else. BELIEVE HER. WHEN PEOPLE TELL YOU STRAIGHT OUT OF THEIR OWN MOUTHS WHAT THEY THINK, YOU SHOULD BELIEVE THEM.

There is a basic truth that many of us say on here from time to time. We say it because it almost always comes true. If your spouse isn't into having sex with you you should assume that it's not that they don't want to have sex, it's that they don't want to have sex with you.

There is nothing anyone can say. You can't make her want to. She told you the truth. She is not into you, she wishes you would leave her alone about it. You can decide if that is the marriage you want. But what you shouldn't do is somehow think it will magically change because it won't. No one can give you advice to change it. If it were me I would do what she suggested and go find someone else, I would just divorce her before I did.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Mired said:


> Followed by the kicker that I should just get someone on the side who could match my desires.


Given that your wife wants you to have someone on the side, I feel you should respect her wishes and have fun doing exactly that.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Your wife sounds spoiled and bratty. Stop spoiling her.

create some distance between you two - that’s really what she requested.

if/since she doesn’t consider your feelings much and your needs much - just know for sure she isn’t invested in the marriage as much as you are.

it really sucks to be married to and entitled spoiled spouse - it’s a LONG life with that type... good luck to you.


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## Mired (Nov 8, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Were you drunk when you told her all you wanted for Christmas was sexual favors?


For clarification, we'd discussed the gifts issue the weekend before. I gave her my note during the week and our discussion happened on Saturday night. 

I was actually the sober one as I had to drive.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Mired said:


> We got to spend the next few hours lecturing about how awful my request was. How she still loved me but couldn't live up to my expectations. Followed by the kicker that I should just get someone on the side who could match my desires.


It's so funny to me how often the guys around here say women should speak up whenever I say we're often afraid of hurting our man's feelings. And then, whenever a guy posts the things their woman said, they and the guys here get their boxers all twisted. There's no end to the disconnect. And there's no end to the demands either. Complain about no sex. Get sex. Then complain that she doesn't ask for it. Great jeepers.

I don't see anything terrible about what she said. It seems pretty obvious to me this is clearly not the first request or conversation regarding sex, so much so that she feels pressured and finally blurted out that she can't handle it, that he wants more than she's willing or able. Why isn't that obvious to all of you?

Why are his feelings so hurt and why are your feelings hurt for his sake when you know she didn't mean what she said about getting a woman on the side? He didn't complain here that they don't have sex. That he asked her to initiate also makes it obvious that sex isn't his issue. What I get from her rant is that he gets what he wants and then keeps asking for something more.

I keep trying to explain how many of us women are, how we think, our levels of discomfort, etc., but I just get argued down or completely ignored. And then, when women come here complaining that their husband ignores, minimizes, neglects, and doesn't listen to them, you argue against that too or tell them _too bad_ in so many words.

Is there no getting you to understand anything? Or to even be consistent about anything because it makes no sense to argue and reject both ways.


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## Mired (Nov 8, 2020)

StarFires said:


> You took it out of context and completely over simplified the issue. Was that on purpose? Or did you really not understand the scenario?


Actually, it as as simple as jorgegene makes it out to be. 

We discussed Christmas gifts. I asked my wife to relax more and take the initiative for a change. She had too much to drink and told me it would be better for me to get someone on the side.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Mired said:


> She had too much to drink and told me it would be better for me to get someone on the side.


Since it would be better for you, what are you waiting for?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

sunsetmist said:


> You are picky and difficult to buy for. You asked for what you truly wanted, but she said no--ugly, but worse than no actually. Just how cruel was she? I'd let it go as has been suggested. Your choice, you can just relive it over and over and feel the pain OR you can smile, say 'thank you so much', never mind, REFUSE to discuss it period. Let her wonder about your reaction. Of course your plan is not a side piece, but this response might cause her to review her drunken snark.
> 
> Hope I'm not causing instigating a war...


She already did review it and apologized to him.


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## Mired (Nov 8, 2020)

bobert said:


> What exactly did your "innocent note" say? I can see the request being a playful thing, or a trainwreck.


To paraphrase: It's been a long year but generally good for us, we're going on holiday soon so we get some time just for us. We can finally wind down a bit and relax. As my gift this year I'd like it if you were the one to initiate occasionally while we have the chance. 

I didn't ask for any specific acts or anything else. Just that she'd initiate. 

We've been together 20 years now and generally I take the lead when it comes to intimacy. I've sent many messages and notes before being a lot more descriptive and it's never been a problem. We've both always been very vanilla and I'm fine with that and any requests have taken this into account. 

I didn't think this note was a problem at all until that night. We'd been out together the morning to do shopping and she even secretly bought me a snack I like as a quick surprise gift. 

So I was actually rather surprised by her response after a few drinks.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mired said:


> To paraphrase: It's been a long year but generally good for us, we're going on holiday soon so we get some time just for us. We can finally wind down a bit and relax. As my gift this year I'd like it if you were the one to initiate occasionally while we have the chance.
> 
> I didn't ask for any specific acts or anything else. Just that she'd initiate.
> 
> ...



Check your phone bill.

Maybe she wants you to get some on the side because she is getting some on the side.

Sorry but pretty typical.

And before you way your wife would never I can show you about 1000 post where the person said my spouse would never.

If you spouse is telling you to open your marriage then there are some big problems, adultery isn't a bad bet. The marriage may already be open. You say she spends a lot of time at work huh?

Figure out how to tell what the most used apps are on her phone, there is a way to do that on iPhone, it's called screen time or something. Then get her phone and check that. See if it's a chat app you don't recognize. Look it up.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Mired said:


> Actually, it as as simple as jorgegene makes it out to be.
> 
> We discussed Christmas gifts. I asked my wife to relax more and take the initiative for a change. She had too much to drink and told me it would be better for me to get someone on the side.


Telling ('telling being the operative word) to "relax', 'cool down' 'chill' etc. are in many cases taken as being derogatory. She sounds like she works or ass off which probably contributes substantially to your household income (are you earning more than her). Then you tell her relax more and take care of your needs. Do you see how that comes off. She told you to go get it elsewhere because she found your approach insulting and derogatory. Many women would find this transactional approach very insulting.


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## Mired (Nov 8, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> Don’t read too much into what she said, she was drunk and she is clearly stressed out. We have all said dumb things when we were drinking. Let it go.





Kaliber said:


> I like this advice.. sometimes is good to let things slide and not make a big deal out of it!


My approach was to accept the apology. I went out afterwards and did our shopping to cook lunch for us and picked up some flowers for her. This was to show that I'm ok with what happened and we're moving on, she knows I don't buy flowers to apologize, we've discussed that many times. I get them as a gift because I want to.


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## Mired (Nov 8, 2020)

StarFires said:


> That truly deserved repeating.
> 
> Seriously guys, why did this have to turn into the man never getting sex? And why on earth did he have to be told to divorce his wife?
> 
> ...





StarFires said:


> It's so funny to me how often the guys around here say women should speak up whenever I say we're often afraid of hurting our man's feelings. And then, whenever a guy posts the things their woman said, they and the guys here get their boxers all twisted. There's no end to the disconnect. And there's no end to the demands either. Complain about no sex. Get sex. Then complain that she doesn't ask for it. Great jeepers.
> 
> I don't see anything terrible about what she said. It seems pretty obvious to me this is clearly not the first request or conversation regarding sex, so much so that she feels pressured and finally blurted out that she can't handle it, that he wants more than she's willing or able. Why isn't that obvious to all of you?
> 
> ...


Initially I found the tone of your replies rather insulting but I've reread them a couple of times now and see where you are coming from. To go over some of the points raised.

You are correct, this isn't about not having a sex life with my wife. I said in my initial post that things have actually been going good for us for quite some time. We are intimate. We do enjoy each other. We do still do things together. We do cuddle and do have public displays of affection. We still make time and go on dates. It also isn't that my wife doesn't initiate, as I mentioned in my original post she suggested we do something different for Halloween night. A month or two before we'd taken the kids away to a lodge in the bush where she initiated that we have some fun outside at a bonfire.

That's in essence what my request was based on: We have some time coming up and all I actually want is more of the same. I'd like you to be the way we have been recently.

Be that as it may, I've explained it and we've discussed it further during last night. She does feel bad, she is ashamed at the way she acted and wants to make things right. A concerning comment was that she is fighting for the sake of fighting and it isn't just me, I was just there.


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## Mired (Nov 8, 2020)

aine said:


> Telling ('telling being the operative word) to "relax', 'cool down' 'chill' etc. are in many cases taken as being derogatory. She sounds like she works or ass off which probably contributes substantially to your household income (are you earning more than her). Then you tell her relax more and take care of your needs. Do you see how that comes off. She told you to go get it elsewhere because she found your approach insulting and derogatory. Many women would find this transactional approach very insulting.


No, not telling. As per my op we had discussed what we'd like for Christmas this year from each other. My note was phrased as a request and that is what it was.

As to household income, my wife does work her ass off and I support her in that. She is self employed and has been doing it independently for a number of years without my assistance. Her contribution to our household income is limited though. What's hers is hers and what's mine is ours as the old joke goes.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Really great that you guys talked and smoothed it over. I'm really glad. Great touch with the flowers too.

Just please consider before you make such requests in the future, ask her how she feels about you asking. Your request was for more of what she had been doing, but I just don't like being asked. I requested that my husband never ask me for a BJ, for example. If he did, he'd never get one. As a result of not asking for it, he's a happy man. I also would not perform if he asked me to initiate sex. I don't know why I'm like that, but I'm like that. It feels like trampling on my comfort level and pressuring me. I don't like performing on demand. Makes me feel self-conscious.

I know you guys like feeling desired just like we women do. I just think sometimes it's best to accept what we're able to put forward because doing it on demand isn't nearly the same. As DownByTheRiver pointed, it's not real if you ask for it. It's just performing/acting/faking. You might feel like you don't care so long as she does it, but believe that we do care, and that affects things later down the road. You said she does initiate, so you get what you like but it's never enough? Because it apparently isn't enough and you asked for more of what you're already getting, she felt she's not enough for you and your demands. Do you see what I'm saying?

It's all smoothed over now, but do you know how she feels about being asked? She overreacted and has apologized, but she reacted that way for a reason. Keep in mind that, as I alluded to earlier, we women don't like expressing some things. So she just might say she was fighting for the sake of fighting, but surely it came from somewhere. So ask her right out "Hon, tell me honestly would you prefer I didn't ask?" Hopefully, she will answer honestly but knowing how some of us are, I'm not totally sure she will. But I think she'll appreciate your consideration and perhaps help her to feel safe enough to open up about it at a later time.

I'm trying to save your sex life, Mired, because guys oftentimes don't realize how they ruin it. All they know is they look up one day and can't get sex anymore with no idea why it happened or when. Look out for the road ahead is all I'm saying.


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## Mired (Nov 8, 2020)

The dichotomy of it just gets to me now. We're encouraged to have open communication to build relationships but only if we follow some unspoken rules we are only made aware of if they are broken. 

I think I replied to someone else that we've been together for 20 years now. I've shared my thoughts and requests many times before without issue and generally they are very well received. Now suddenly it's a case that because I asked I should rather find someone else. 

As per my thread title I feel there is a disconnect somewhere I'm not getting and don't no how to deal with. If it is that I'm not supposed to ask or share my thoughts fine then. It just swings the pendulum in the other direction though. My wife won't have something to get upset about but I become more reclusive and someday there's a fight because I'm not sharing. 

My note wasn't an instruction manual that on these days you will act like so and perform in such manner or else. It was really just me saying let's go and have a good time and leave the world behind for a while. 

I understand the view that she may have interpreted that I am seeing her as inadequate and I explained that I wasn't even before reading about it here. 

I made a request and it blew up. It does change things going forward though and I'm not ure how to balance that.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Mired said:


> The dichotomy of it just gets to me now. We're encouraged to have open communication to build relationships but only if we follow some unspoken rules we are only made aware of if they are broken.
> 
> I think I replied to someone else that we've been together for 20 years now. I've shared my thoughts and requests many times before without issue and generally they are very well received. Now suddenly it's a case that because I asked I should rather find someone else.
> 
> ...


Something in the way it was done triggered her, I am not saying you are right, she is wrong or vice versa. You seem to have a good and open relationship so maybe it is time to explore why this triggered her to react the way she did. Sometimes when tipsy the truth comes out.


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Yeah that reads exactly the same to me.
> 
> She says this to him, and still you have the typical white knights come to HER defense. What a joke. She basically told him she would rather he sleep with other women then have to be with him. This is how much she values their vow of celibacy in their marriage to each other and yet the white knights basically blame him, he must have made her say it. OP she told you to **** off.
> 
> ...


you're going a bit too far here. He said she was drunk and the next day she apologized and was embarassed for what she said. 

"Get a side piece" might be a crude thing to say, but it's not _that _bad... it's not a personal attack on him. It's obviously something you say when you're drunk, stressed, and frustrated at the end of the night. She didn't insult his mind, body, or abilities, she didn't cheat on him, didn't flirt with some other guy, didn't say this in front of other people...

"To err is human," but apparently in your book, marriages have to be mistake free, or it's over? Get real.


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

Mired said:


> Actually, it as as simple as jorgegene makes it out to be.
> 
> We discussed Christmas gifts. I asked my wife to relax more and take the initiative for a change. She had too much to drink and told me it would be better for me to get someone on the side.


Having been on the other side of open-ended requests like this, I can see how she might get annoyed by it, and view it as controlling. 

"_relax more_" = "_I don't like your behavior_" ... also when is "more" enough for you? Now she has to second guess her own emotions and behavior constantly, lest you think she's not relaxed enough for you.

If she's going through some stress at work, and you know this, it also seems really insincere and unsympathetic. 

"_take the initiative for a change_" ... I guess this one is a little less open-ended, but if you really said "_for a change_" that sounds like a complaint to me. And it sounds like from your other posts she DOES take the initiative sometimes, so I could see how she'd find this unfair.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TomNebraska said:


> you're going a bit too far here. He said she was drunk and the next day she apologized and was embarassed for what she said.
> 
> "Get a side piece" might be a crude thing to say, but it's not _that _bad... it's not a personal attack on him. It's obviously something you say when you're drunk, stressed, and frustrated at the end of the night. She didn't insult his mind, body, or abilities, she didn't cheat on him, didn't flirt with some other guy, didn't say this in front of other people...
> 
> "To err is human," but apparently in your book, marriages have to be mistake free, or it's over? Get real.


I see it as an attack on their marriage. Drunk or not. Besides people usual are more honest when they are drunk.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Well, I just tell DW what to do, and all is well.

For about .002 seconds. 😉😜😜😜

It takes her about that long to smack me. I've timed it.

🙂🙂


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Mired said:


> My approach was to accept the apology. I went out afterwards and did our shopping to cook lunch for us and picked up some flowers for her. *This was to show that I'm ok with what happened and we're moving on,* *she knows I don't buy flowers to apologize, we've discussed that many times. I get them as a gift because I want to.*


As you said in your first post you are a "Nice Guy." You really need to read Glover's book No More Mr. Nice Guy, study it and learn what he is trying to say.

I was a Nice Guy once upon a time. You really are the embodiment of a Nice Guy. If you have read the book, you should understand what a "covert contract" means. Your posts are full of them.

You need to read the book and think about your behavior. You also need to Get a Life (those are code words defined by Glover). 

When someone is "drunk" their subconscious says things that their conscious mind does not fully stop. When she told you that you should get find someone else to have sex with you should listen to her! She was speaking from her uncensored heart. You should not be unfaithful, but should should understand that she just doesn't care to have sex with you. You can kid yourself you can tell yourself that she was drunk, but you heard her subconscious tell you "her truth." It is time that you Get a Life and prepare yourself for either divorce and your moving on with your life or for her to have a moment where she changes herself and her relationship with you.

This is not about Christmas presents, this is not about initiating sex, this is far more serious to the basis of your marriage.

I would strongly suggest that you work on Getting a Life, make yourself a better more integrated man who is confident and proud of your accomplishments and does not make covert contracts for a woman's affection, nor a man who needs a woman's (your Wife's) validation to feel complete and whole. The life you "Get" will make you feel whole and once whole you will find a woman who can love you for who you really are.

As usual, I would suggest some form of marriage counseling. What she said to you was something that you should pay attention to as it was honesty not her normally censored thoughts.

Good luck


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

My sister says that there are 3 groups of people who tell the truth: children, drunks ,,,,, I forgot the third group.


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## Nailhead (Sep 21, 2020)

StarFires said:


> Mired, I hope DownByTheRiver's response shows you how your request came off. I just think there's a time and place for everything, and I'm not sure asking your wife to initiate sex as your Christmas present was the time and was incredibly out of place. You told the story as innocently as you possibly could to convey that you meant no harm, but that doesn't mean no harm was done. I would have been offended and I don't even have a past to defend.


I see quite the opposite. Just when is the time and place? What past(of the OP) are you speaking of?


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I see it as an attack on their marriage. Drunk or not. Besides people usual are more honest when they are drunk.


I forgot that drunk people are notoriously honest, and not at all prone to exaggeration or allowing their emotions to cloud their judgment or speech.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TomNebraska said:


> I forgot that drunk people are notoriously honest, and not at all prone to exaggeration or allowing their emotions to cloud their judgment or speech.


Your right what a prize he has. She is every man's dream. 🙄

What a high bar you have set.


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## Mired (Nov 8, 2020)

Different perspectives do provide some insight I guess. My overall feeling though isn't that we are heading for divorce or that I do need to find someone else. I do agree with the portion of the statement referring to No more Mr nice guy in that I need to get a life. 

I may have been over committed to finding what makes me happy by spoiling my wife and asking for something in return. 

We've continued to talk the last few days and my wife rightly pointed out that I have been somewhat distant. I'm still struggling to come to terms some of her comments but did come to the decision I won't be asking for anything again.

I do need to be more of my own person and stop idolising her. The change may be more dramatic than my original request but I'll just have to wait and see where it takes us.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

StarFires said:


> She already did review it and apologized to him.


Last night I got drunk and told my wife she's fat.

But, this morning I apologized to her. 

So, everything's fine now.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

sokillme said:


> I see it as an attack on their marriage. Drunk or not. Besides people usual are more honest when they are drunk.


Let's say that my wife IS overweight, but it's a level that I can deal with and it's not such a significant issue that it's worth my damaging her self image.

Then, one night, I get drunk and tell her she's fat.

I can apologize, but the damage has likely been done.

Yet apparently, if my wife just accepts that she's fat and losses some weight, everything's going to be okay.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Mired said:


> Different perspectives do provide some insight I guess. My overall feeling though isn't that we are heading for divorce or that I do need to find someone else. I do agree with the portion of the statement referring to No more Mr nice guy in that I need to get a life.
> 
> I may have been over committed to finding what makes me happy by spoiling my wife and asking for something in return.
> 
> ...


You're *both* going to regret the bolded

But, I don't know how you can do anything else.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Mired said:


> Different perspectives do provide some insight I guess. My overall feeling though isn't that we are heading for divorce or that I do need to find someone else. I do agree with the portion of the statement referring to No more Mr nice guy in that I need to get a life.
> 
> I may have been over committed to finding what makes me happy by spoiling my wife and asking for something in return.
> 
> ...


Your wife probably *will* initiate a time or two on vacation (she sounds like a good person).

Suck it up and accept, even though your instinct will be to decline.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> Last night I got drunk and told my wife she's fat.
> 
> But, this morning I apologized to her.
> 
> So, everything's fine now.





Buddy400 said:


> Let's say that my wife IS overweight, but it's a level that I can deal with and it's not such a significant issue that it's worth my damaging her self image.
> 
> Then, one night, I get drunk and tell her she's fat.
> 
> ...


You make false equivalencies. She didn't say anything about his body or his body parts. While your examples are very true in each their own circumstances in terms of that's what happens and the way things go, your examples are out of context. Yes, people get offended but for different reasons. You can't assert that people get offended for all the same reasons or that everything people find offensive have the same meaning because they don't. The offenses didn't come from the same direction either.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

It’s never a good idea to put your wife on a pedestal. Disappointment is almost always guaranteed when you do.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mired said:


> Different perspectives do provide some insight I guess. My overall feeling though isn't that we are heading for divorce or that I do need to find someone else. I do agree with the portion of the statement referring to No more Mr nice guy in that I need to get a life.
> 
> I may have been over committed to finding what makes me happy by spoiling my wife and asking for something in return.
> 
> ...


So when she told you you've been distant what did you say? Did you apologize or did you call her out for opening up your marriage?

Most nice guys are nice guys because they are passive and afraid to confront. What they are doing is making covert deals. They are saying, if I bend over backwards then this person has to love me. The truth is most nice guys are nice guys because they are insecure. It's weak and it's inauthentic. Wives can tell and it makes them feel unsafe and one of your primary roles as a husband is to give your wife's life a foundation to feel safe. Her thinking may be, if you can't even stand up to her when she knows she is wrong how are you going to stand up FOR her. They then lose respect for their husbands. 

Healthy love takes courage.

By the way you can spoil your wife and still call her out on her ********. And what your wife said to you was straight up ********.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> Last night I got drunk and told my wife she's fat.
> 
> But, this morning I apologized to her.
> 
> So, everything's fine now.


Exactly. 

Did you also ask your wife why she is so distant today with big inquisitive puppy dog eyes?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

StarFires said:


> You make false equivalencies. She didn't say anything about his body or his body parts. While your examples are very true in each their own circumstances in terms of that's what happens and the way things go, your examples are out of context. Yes, people get offended but for different reasons. You can't assert that people get offended for all the same reasons or that everything people find offensive have the same meaning because they don't. The offenses didn't come from the same direction either.


She told him to find someone else to sleep with, in the process invalidating their vows. It's actually much worse. You don't vow to keep you body weight the same in front of all your friends, family and whatever deity you believe in.

The truth is her actions and now the very words out her mouth have told him over an over she doesn't care about their physical relationship at all. It means nothing to her and in fact is a nuisance.

For lots of people that would be the point where you call it. Would for me.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

sokillme said:


> She told him to find someone else to sleep with, in the process invalidating their vows. It's actually much worse. You don't vow to keep you body weight the same in front of all your friends, family and whatever deity you believe in.
> 
> The truth is her actions and now the very words out her mouth have told him over an over she doesn't care about their physical relationship at all. It means nothing to her and in fact is a nuisance.
> 
> For lots of people that would be the point where you call it. Would for me.


I'm not interested in the way you keep over-inflating the circumstances and over-exaggerating their effects. I don't read your posts anymore and read this one by accident because I didn't look to see who it was, but then I could tell who it was while reading it. I don't know why you're so hell-bent on trying to convince people to divorce their spouse that you consistently make their situation appear to be something other than it is and so much worse than it is.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

StarFires said:


> I'm not interested in the way you keep over-inflating the circumstances and over-exaggerating their effects. I don't read your posts anymore and read this one by accident because I didn't look to see who it was, but then I could tell who it was while reading it. I don't know why you're so hell-bent on trying to convince people to divorce their spouse that you consistently make their situation appear to be something other than it is and so much worse than it is.


I could care less if you read my posts or not, I will keep responding though.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

sokillme said:


> I could care less if you read my posts or not, I will keep responding though.


Yes of course you will. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I was only responding to you quoting me.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

StarFires said:


> I requested that my husband never ask me for a BJ, for example. If he did, he'd never get one. As a result of not asking for it, he's a happy man.


I understand that you're specifically saying that YOU don't like being asked and not claiming that ALL WOMEN do not like being asked. That's good.

But, just for the record, this topic has come up before and a considerable number of the women responding (a majority?) replied that they had no problem at all with being asked. Some preferred it.

At the time, I posed the question to my wife. Her response was "How am I going to know you want a blowjob if you don't ask?"

Just making sure that the occasional drive-by doesn't think this is some total "women-wide" issue.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Mired said:


> Different perspectives do provide some insight I guess. My overall feeling though isn't that we are heading for divorce or that I do need to find someone else. I do agree with the portion of the statement referring to No more Mr nice guy in that I need to get a life.
> 
> I may have been over committed to finding what makes me happy by spoiling my wife and asking for something in return.
> 
> ...


I think the idolizing someone is very dangerous. If you have been idolizing her and now start telling her she is not good enough (not relaxed enough, not initiating enough, etc) this may have been difficult for her to swallow. Yes, you need to get a life and stop asking your wife to make you happy. In addition, as humans we are flawed, she, like you is far from perfect. I bet she finds it difficult to live up to your version of her? Maybe therein lies the problem and when she was drunk she let it all out. Get someone else because she doesn't live up to your image of her kind of thing.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Mired said:


> We've continued to talk the last few days and my wife rightly pointed out that I have been somewhat distant.


Any she is surprised why??

Her telling you, drunk or not, that YOU should stop bothering her for sex and find someone else is AMAZINGLY disrespectful to you and your marriage. Have you spoken with her specifically, since she said this, WHY she isn't attracted to you anymore (because that's what she meant).


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## Mired (Nov 8, 2020)

Buddy400 said:


> You're *both* going to regret the bolded
> 
> But, I don't know how you can do anything else.


And that I guess is what makes the situation difficult. I haven't ever shied away from open communication but this incident puts that in a different perspective.


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## Mired (Nov 8, 2020)

Buddy400 said:


> Your wife probably *will* initiate a time or two on vacation (she sounds like a good person).
> 
> Suck it up and accept, even though your instinct will be to decline.


The thought crossed my mind but I have no intention of declining should the situation arise. That would just be adding fuel on the fire. I've accepted the apology and we move on.


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## Mired (Nov 8, 2020)

sokillme said:


> So when she told you you've been distant what did you say? Did you apologize or did you call her out for opening up your marriage?
> 
> Most nice guys are nice guys because they are passive and afraid to confront. What they are doing is making covert deals. They are saying, if I bend over backwards then this person has to love me. The truth is most nice guys are nice guys because they are insecure. It's weak and it's inauthentic. Wives can tell and it makes them feel unsafe and one of your primary roles as a husband is to give your wife's life a foundation to feel safe. Her thinking may be, if you can't even stand up to her when she knows she is wrong how are you going to stand up FOR her. They then lose respect for their husbands.
> 
> ...


No, I did not apologize. It's part of an ongoing discussion now, the crux being that I simply stated that I am still processing this and it needs some time. She wants it fixed now, apologized again which I said wasn't necessary as I had accepted the original apology. The incident has changed things but I'm not going anywhere and I won't be finding someone else. We'll work through this together and carry on but there isn't an instant solution and I'm not just going to act as if nothing happened.


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## Mired (Nov 8, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> Any she is surprised why??
> 
> Her telling you, drunk or not, that YOU should stop bothering her for sex and find someone else is AMAZINGLY disrespectful to you and your marriage. Have you spoken with her specifically, since she said this, WHY she isn't attracted to you anymore (because that's what she meant).


It's been an ongoing discussion and I have have shared my view. 

My overall stance has been that there was no intention to make her feel inadequate in any way. I understand that it did and I regret that but she also needs to understand that my request was coming from the good space we have been in the last while. 

Her response is that she knows she was out of line and is deeply sorry, which I accept. She wants to move on from this as quickly as possible which I can't as easily do. She regrets that she doesn't show interest me as much as she actually is but finding balance is just too much for her and she picks fights to try and keep control of her circumstances. No, there isn't anything more I can do to help her as I already do more than my share but it's appreciated that I'm willing. 

So we carry on until we find what works.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Mired said:


> she suggested we do something different for Halloween night.
> 
> A month or two before we'd taken the kids away to a lodge in the bush where she initiated that we have some fun outside at a bonfire.
> 
> That's in essence what my request was based on: We have some time coming up and all I actually want is more of the same. I'd like you to be the way we have been recently.


These things stood out to me. Could it be that she does indeed think she has been initiating? And she is frustrated because you haven't recognized these as her initiating and she thinks this should be enough for you?

Did you make your definition of "initiating" clear? Does it mean make plans to have sex like described above, or to physically initiate?

Lastly, did you say in your note what you've told us in the last paragraph above? Because the paragraph here sounds a whole lot better than what you've described your note said. I wonder if your wording was off?

I would take zero offense if my husband's note said something to the effect of, I am so excited for our upcoming vacation together. You've been showing me a more aggressive side of you lately, and I get excited just thinking about it. As opposed to, you should let your hair down when we go on vacation. I realize that is highly unlikely you were that blunt but I'm sure you get the gist.


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## Mired (Nov 8, 2020)

lucy999 said:


> These things stood out to me. Could it be that she does indeed think she has been initiating? And she is frustrated because you haven't recognized these as her initiating and she thinks this should be enough for you?
> 
> Did you make your definition of "initiating" clear? Does it mean make plans to have sex like described above, or to physically initiate?
> 
> ...


Well that's exactly it, I don't and didn't discount the fact that she has been initiating, and to your question on the note, the wording was: it's been tough year but generally been good for us. I like the way you've been recently and would like more of the same. 

Be that as it may at least we're talking it through and we'll see where it goes. I can see that she does feel bad about the incident and I'm trying not to make her feel worse about it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mired said:


> No, I did not apologize. It's part of an ongoing discussion now, the crux being that I simply stated that I am still processing this and it needs some time. She wants it fixed now, apologized again which I said wasn't necessary as I had accepted the original apology. The incident has changed things but I'm not going anywhere and I won't be finding someone else. We'll work through this together and carry on but there isn't an instant solution and I'm not just going to act as if nothing happened.


Why don't you tell her that from her actions you are pretty sure she was telling you the truth. That your physical intimacy as a couple really doesn't matter to her. Ask her why you have vows if she doesn't care if you find someone else. Ask her does she expect the same deal? In her mind are her vows to you just as meaningless?

How about you don't act nice and bury this but you use this to get everything out in the open. THAT is how you have a good marriage. Not worshiping the ground your spouse walks on but trusting your spouse to have very honest and at times hard conversations. Trusting that they can handle it and want to work on it with you. And if they don't that when you need to reassess where you are.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

StarFires said:


> I requested that my husband never ask me for a BJ, for example. If he did, he'd never get one. As a result of not asking for it, he's a happy man. I also would not perform if he asked me to initiate sex.


I think this is just cruel...although probably good that you told him ahead of time.

It is also the complete opposite of how most professionals say healthy sexual (and all) relationships should be - we aren't supposed to be WORRIED to tell our partner's what we want. In fact, in loving partnerships, we are supposed to be able to tell them what we want AND TRUST THEM to care enough to want to provide that to us -- from picking up baby diapers on the way home from work to sexual desires. THAT is supposed to be the goal - to ask and receive, for all kinds of things, for eachother, because we love and care for them and they for us.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> I think this is just cruel...although probably good that you told him ahead of time.
> 
> It is also the complete opposite of how most professionals say healthy sexual (and all) relationships should be - we aren't supposed to be WORRIED to tell our partner's what we want. In fact, in loving partnerships, we are supposed to be able to tell them what we want AND TRUST THEM to care enough to want to provide that to us -- from picking up baby diapers on the way home from work to sexual desires. THAT is supposed to be the goal - to ask and receive, for all kinds of things, for eachother, because we love and care for them and they for us.


This is an important point. I think it's interesting how some advice seems to come from a place with an almost presumed hostile intent from the opposite spouse. This is particularly the case when it comes to sex. I mean I get it, popular culture has done us all a disservice in it's dialog about sex and relationships between the sexes. In the sense that it paints men as kind of horny Dogs looking to get off. And unfortunately lots of men play into this stereotype but I honestly think it's because all of us have been poorly served in our understanding about sex and really physical intimacy.

The transactional nature how sex is presented, as well as the way it's used as an internal scoring system really diminishes it and causes all kinds of problems.

I think the different sexes don't really understand each others nature, particularly when it comes to intimacy and really don't care to be empathetic to it. As I always post on here, I believe for men what we are truly looking for from sex is the intimate knowledge of our wives, this knowledge makes us feel very close to her. It's why there is this phenomenon when sex picks up in a relationship many men tend to become more tender and attentive. This is because the act itself really creates a strong bonding for most of them. It makes them feel very close and causes them to covet their wives. I think the sad thing is most men have not been given the tools to express that so it comes off like they want to get off. Besides that the culture really kind of takes a laugh at the kind of frat-boy hornyness of men. I personally think a lot of that supposed hornyness particularly in adolescent men is really about wanting to have that intimacy not unlike how young women will read teen romance novel or obsessing about boy bands. It's trying to come to terms with a very real desire that we all have but not understanding it and learning to put it into a healthy context.

I truly believe that most of the time a husbands desire for sex with his wife is really about needing to feel closer to her, and I think it very much mirrors wife's need for romance in the sense that we both want to experience that level of closeness that only your partner can provide, what you expect from your partner. In general women do this through emotional intimacy which is what the true aim of romance is, men do this through physical intimacy for the most part. In the same way you don't want to have to tell your spouse to give you flowers every once in a while, you also don't want to have to always be the one initiating physical intimacy. It makes it seem like it, and by extension you or being close to you is not a priority.

To me it's a shame that lots of people both genders tend to scoff at these desires, or have a fear of them because I think mostly because they are afraid they will not live up to their partners expectations.

It's not in a lot of peoples comfort zone at least at first. But I am the first on here to tell husbands that they need to provide emotionally for their wives and romance is a big part of that. These things work together. Good spouses are empathetic to their partners nature. I mean a much better and healthier way to look at all of this is, these things we desire from each other are as natural as eating, and we get the honor of having our spouses look to us to provide them. They desire us to nourish them with a part of ourselves.

Instead it's, why can they just let it go already and leave me alone. Is it any wonder that people walk away from relationships like they do. Or that other come along and just freely provide these things and some give into temptation (not that that is an excuse).

From a man's point of view, I think being in a marriage with a wife who doesn't take any consideration to the fact that part of her role is to provide physical intimacy for her husband must be like being married to a husband who doesn't sit and talk with you. It makes a man feel very very lonely.


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Your right what a prize he has. She is every man's dream. 🙄
> 
> What a high bar you have set.


I'm not saying that, just that I don't think he should be willing to take a comment his wife made while she was drunk, stressed out with end of year work responsibilities, and in a somewhat contentious discussion over marital conduct. 

You're making a mountain out of a molehill here.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TomNebraska said:


> I'm not saying that, just that I don't think he should be willing to take a comment his wife made while she was drunk, stressed out with end of year work responsibilities, and in a somewhat contentious discussion over marital conduct.
> 
> You're making a mountain out of a molehill here.


See that is the thing, if OP is feel that way then it's not a molehill. Seems like he is not as upset as some of us would be be he is also not willing to pretend it didn't happen like his wife wants him too, which would be very unwise in my estimation. I agree with @LisaDiane, I don't think you can have a good marriage when your spouse reasonably asked you to fulfill a necessity and you scoff and say go find it somewhere else, drunk or not.


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

If 


sokillme said:


> See that is the thing, if OP is feel that way then it's not a molehill. Seems like he is not as upset as some of us would be be he is also not willing to pretend it didn't happen like his wife wants him too, which would be very unwise in my estimation. I agree with @LisaDiane, I don't think you can have a good marriage when your spouse reasonably asked you to fulfill a necessity and you scoff and say go find it somewhere else, drunk or not.


We'll just have to agree to disagree whether he asked her in a reasonable manner. 

Again, having been on the receiving end of many (intentionally) unreasonable demands from my XW, I think anything open-ended like "Do XYZ more" is unreasonable, even if XYZ doesn't sound like a big deal, or is something a spouse is supposed to do anyway. especially if the other partner already does the thing being asked, like the OP said.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TomNebraska said:


> I'm not saying that, just that I don't think he should be willing to take a comment his wife made while she was drunk, stressed out with end of year work responsibilities, and in a somewhat contentious discussion over marital conduct.
> 
> You're making a mountain out of a molehill here.


I think @sokillme makes a great point that any sign of dissatisfaction by our partners needs to be HEARD and DEALT WITH. Rug-sweeping, while EASY, hides all kinds of problems and causes all kinds of future issues. In ALL my relationships, I prefer openness and honesty, and that anything said, even in a non-drunk joking way is approached in a direct (and kind) way. If my partner doesn't want to do that, then alarm bells (rightfully) ring.

I am NOT afraid of conflict, if I'm dealing with someone who is willing to explain and be honest, and to listen to ME too...I think it's far healthier to have a heated argument (respectfully) than a silent fake acceptance.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TomNebraska said:


> If
> 
> We'll just have to agree to disagree whether he asked her in a reasonable manner.
> 
> Again, having been on the receiving end of many (intentionally) unreasonable demands from my XW, I think anything open-ended like "Do XYZ more" is unreasonable, even if XYZ doesn't sound like a big deal, or is something a spouse is supposed to do anyway. especially if the other partner already does the thing being asked, like the OP said.


I think it's interesting that you excuse her drunken angry response more than his respectful request to her.

Can you explain why that is...?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

sokillme said:


> This is an important point. I think it's interesting how some advice seems to come from a place with an almost presumed hostile intent from the opposite spouse. This is particularly the case when it comes to sex. I mean I get it, popular culture has done us all a disservice in it's dialog about sex and relationships between the sexes. In the sense that it paints men as kind of horny Dogs looking to get off. And unfortunately lots of men play into this stereotype but I honestly think it's because all of us have been poorly served in our understanding about sex and really physical intimacy.
> 
> The transactional nature how sex is presented, as well as the way it's used as an internal scoring system really diminishes it and causes all kinds of problems.
> 
> ...


I LOVE this post...you hit on SO many important points with the issue being discussed (and others), that I wonder if you should be a counselor (are you??)...Lol!!!

It's funny, some of what you said I was saying to someone else almost word-for-word earlier today!  

I would like to say...it's not always men who feel deeply lonely within a sexless marriage - I think any HD partner, man or woman, gets desperate in a marriage that feels like living in a desert without physical intimacy or sexual touch...there are a FEW women who need sex as much as most men do...I wish they would speak up more (on this site in general).


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I think that the op’s sorry tale can be summed up pretty easily. 
His wife tears him a new one and tells him to **** off and not bother her for sex.
His response is to bring her a cup of tea while she’s still in bed, do the grocery shopping, cook lunch for her and buy her flowers.
He really showed her who’s the boss.......


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> I LOVE this post...you hit on SO many important points with the issue being discussed (and others), that I wonder if you should be a counselor (are you??)...Lol!!!
> 
> It's funny, some of what you said I was saying to someone else almost word-for-word earlier today!
> 
> I would like to say...it's not always men who feel deeply lonely within a sexless marriage - I think any HD partner, man or woman, gets desperate in a marriage that feels like living in a desert without physical intimacy or sexual touch...there are a FEW women who need sex as much as most men do...I wish they would speak up more (on this site in general).


Nope, not a counselor, which is a good thing because 90% of the time I would say divorce this asshole.

I think you are right. That is not always a man/women thing. A lot of the women on this site do talk about it, there is a whole post dedicated to wives in dead bedroom situations. I actually thing these LD women are an outlier. I also think a lot times those that are are with very selfish, lazy lovers. It also should be said men have been told lies about women's sexual nature. The amount of men who think they can nice a women into hot passionate sex it ridiculous.

Honestly the thing that has taught me the most about women's sexual nature is reading the aftermath of affairs. I am not sure I really understood this until I started reading these stories. It's almost never about physical appearance per say, and almost always about emotional connection. Often with a response desire built in. I think husbands should understand and cultivate this. It seems to me women want to have a deep emotional connection so they feel safe and then they want to be wanted, not beggared, or groveled at, wanted.

When it comes to this though I think men have an extra added pressure of society judging them worth by how much sex they have. I think for women it's more about having men desire to have sex with them, but for men it's the amount. So a man in a sexless marriage often feels less of a man, where as a wife may be satisfied with just knowing she is desired. Then again I admit this can be a very stereotypical sexist idea. I am sure women in sexless marriage also feel the same kind of pain.

It's all weird, and not right. The shame of it is that in my mind it's not how sex should be seen. There is just so much outside crap that complicates it, not to mention all the assholes.


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> I think it's interesting that you excuse her drunken angry response more than his respectful request to her.
> 
> Can you explain why that is...?


See my response to the OP in post #36.

I'd quibble with his request being "respectful," at least as he phrased it here.

It's one thing to ask your spouse to do something or stop doing something... it's quite another to leave it open-ended so they're left feeling nothing will be good enough, and they're supposed to follow them around to make sure their needs are being met.


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> I think @sokillme makes a great point that any sign of dissatisfaction by our partners needs to be HEARD and DEALT WITH. ...
> 
> I am NOT afraid of conflict, if I'm dealing with someone who is willing to explain and be honest, and to listen to ME too...I think it's far healthier to have a heated argument (respectfully) than a silent fake acceptance.


You sound like a really pleasant person to be around. pick heated fights over any little thing at the drop of a hat... great relationship advice.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TomNebraska said:


> You sound like a really pleasant person to be around. pick heated fights over any little thing at the drop of a hat... great relationship advice.


REALLY...?? THAT is what you got out of my post...? 

If you could HEAR my voice, you would know I'm not "heated" at all, just curious and interested...even in my post to YOU, my tone in my head was light and seeking information, THAT'S ALL.

I was actually writing a response to you, agreeing with alot of what you said in your post #36...so you don't know me at all. 

And that's perfectly ok.


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## Mired (Nov 8, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Often with a response desire built in. I think husbands should understand and cultivate this. It seems to me women want to have a deep emotional connection so they feel safe and then they want to be wanted, not beggared, or groveled at, wanted.


This stood out to me and ties back into what I refer to as the disconnect.

The comments here so far have been quite varied but the trend, specifically who those I assume to be the female posters, is that "husbands" need to be ones providing the safe space, being committed to the wife only, being loyal and adoring while allowing the wife to be independent and in control of what she chooses to do without being subjected to expectations. I referred this dichotomy earlier in relation to communication where its encouraged to be open in order to build relationships BUT only if you follow certain rules that you'll be informed of as things go along.

Which ties into this:



sokillme said:


> So a man in a sexless marriage often feels less of a man, *where as a wife may be satisfied with just knowing she is desired.* Then again I admit this can be a very stereotypical sexist idea.


As stated already, my situation specifically, is not that of a sexless marriage. Generally things are actually going very well apart from this incident but the situation lends itself to the part in bold and to quote from another post:



sokillme said:


> It's why there is this phenomenon when sex picks up in a relationship many men tend to become more tender and attentive. This is because the act itself really creates a strong bonding for most of them. It makes them feel very close and causes them to covet their wives. *I think the sad thing is most men have not been given the tools to express that so it comes off like they want to get off.*


The key things from your posts I've quoted, and I am sure many here will not agree with the view, are that women want to have a connection, want to be desired, want to be wanted but solely on their terms. Men are seemingly ill equipped to deal with this and thus a disconnect is created.

As it stands from what's been posted so far women want a connection/to be wanted/desired but men can't say/ask/express anything to demonstrate that they do want/desire because its frowned on to have expectations. Should men have the similar needs to be wanted/desired they should rather keep quiet about it because the women will do this in her way when it suits her but they should just know that it is the case.

How do you deal with/resolve that though is the question?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mired said:


> This stood out to me and ties back into what I refer to as the disconnect.
> 
> The comments here so far have been quite varied but the trend, specifically who those I assume to be the female posters, is that "husbands" need to be ones providing the safe space, being committed to the wife only, being loyal and adoring while allowing the wife to be independent and in control of what she chooses to do without being subjected to expectations. I referred this dichotomy earlier in relation to communication where its encouraged to be open in order to build relationships BUT only if you follow certain rules that you'll be informed of as things go along.
> 
> ...


You communicate with your wife. But you need to learn to communicate emotionally which enables you to make that connection. For instance you can take many of the things that I expressed and say them by pursuing her romantically. If you listen to many of the romantic love songs for instance they are really saying what I did in my post. I want to be close to you. That is what romance is really it's emotional communication. I think what men miss about romance is it's a good way to say, we need to have more sex without saying directly, we need to have more sex. That is a tool in your tool-box. Use it. Lots of women are more receptive to that.

I see romance as a way to make that intimate connection the same way sex is. What you are trying to do is create that secret where you look at the person and you know is only between the two of you. It's that specialness. It's about "knowing" the person. A good way to do that is to pay attention to your wife. Then show her that you are paying attention. If something is important to her help her without her having to ask you for it. My thing it to leave notes telling her I see her and what she is doing. So if she worked really hard to decorate the house for the holiday's I might leave a note an tell her how nice the house looks and how thankful I am that she made it so nice for us. I think that is a good way to make her feel important, safe and protected. I think that is what you need for her to open up to you sexually. Besides being attracted to you. Get the emotional stuff down first so she feels safe, then move onto the flirty sexy stuff.

It's not just cards and flowers, though those are cool too. I think part of that is also taking some risk emotionally and letting her see you that way. Both the sex and the emotion is really allowing a vulnerability that involves risk and creates bonding experiences. For men a lot of times the risk is in the emotional vulnerability because we are taught never to show that side of ourselves. Understand I don't think it's a good idea so show a lot of emotional weakness, but allowing her to see your deep emotional makeup is important. We as men understand this with sex right? We naturally believe the more open the women is sexual the more desire and ultimately love this women probably has for you. (Now some may say this is not true, but that is the perception we have.) I think it can be the same thing emotionally with your wife. Both these things go hand and hand and are about intimacy.

I also think it's OK to say you are unhappy but you have to be careful how you do it. If you do it in anger of frustration it's not going to help. I also think a big part of the problem with this is that both sides don't understand what they are really talking about and don't articulate it effectively. Have you talked to your wife about your sex life in the terms I laid out? I mean if it were me now that this is all out in the open I would just straight up ask her if she is still attracted to you. See what she says, if nothing else it may shock her. If she says yes ask her why you should believe that when you ask her to show you and she tells you to find someone else to do that. But be careful what you wish for. Maybe you don't need to lead with that but first you can say that you feel like you are losing connection, and that you need some time with her to build it back up. But put in terms of closeness, specialness and less about the physical aspects themselves. Those are just the tools to make you feel that way. But I wouldn't hide the fact that ignoring this has it's cost.

I don't think anyone should go months let alone years being unhappy in marriage. A marriage dynamic should not be like a parent child dynamic in any way, it's messed up when a spouse treats their partner like their parent in the sense that they think the love they receive is unlimited. I think it's a smart strategy to dissuade any of that kind of thinking. Which is why this whole idea of marriage for marriage sake is such a stupid life strategy. If your partner knows you have no recourse what is their motivation to change. And don't tell me their love for you because 50% of all the people in the world are motivated out of fear, especially once they get comfortable, it's just the facts. It's easy to get comfortable once all the excitement and newness wears off. Part of the reason advice is often given to distance yourself in this situation is to passively remind your spouse that continuing to neglect you risks losing you. Always being nice and being a white knight prevents this and is dishonest, it's not an effective communication strategy. In the same respect you need to ask for what you want. I think it's OK to eventually say - look I am not sure I can go through the rest of my life knowing that I am never going to be desired every again. It's hard for me to be enthusiastic about a relationship like that. And even if you tell me you desire me if you never show me then there is no difference. Passive marriages or just relationships in general are usually not good ones.

But that brings me to my last point. The only thing you have total control of in this life is yourself. If you let yourself go, whether it's responsibilities or appearance, if you are treating your wife like your Mom, or yell at her, ignoring her and are generally unkind to her then you don't deserve to have sex with her and I am not sure why you would expect anything different. No one desires someone who takes them for granted or doesn't work on being desirable. Your wife is the primary relationship in your life and the most important. It's weird to me that some Men will prioritize their car or their sports team over her. Makes no sense. Your wife is your life's mission, your team mate. Which is to your advantage. You can even make her a part of your love of your sports team or your car if you are smart about it. If you can find some aspect of that that she can relate to, include her. If you are having issues then be the leader and work to solve them. Still assuming she is a good woman and wife (which is the assumption this advice comes from), cherish her, she dedicated her life to you. Imaging doing that and then that person sits on the couch all day playing video games? WTF. How many rounds of call of duty do you have to win. Talk to her. Take an interest in her, include her in your internal emotional life.

Get that down first make her feel safe and close to you and then try to figure out what turns her on then play on that, game that, have fun with it. Happily ever after doesn't just happen it involves work, but rewarding fulfilling work.

That is my Tony Robbin's advice, that really comes from years of reading on this site.

You asked.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

sokillme said:


> You communicate with your wife. But you need to learn to communicate emotionally which enables you to make that connection. For instance you can take many of the things that I expressed and say them by pursuing her romantically. If you listen to many of the romantic love songs for instance they are really saying what I did in my post. I want to be close to you. That is what romance is really it's emotional communication. I think what men miss about romance is it's a good way to say, we need to have more sex without saying directly, we need to have more sex. That is a tool in your tool-box. Use it. Lots of women are more receptive to that.
> 
> I see romance as a way to make that intimate connection the same way sex is. What you are trying to do is create that secret where you look at the person and you know is only between the two of you. It's that specialness. It's about "knowing" the person. A good way to do that is to pay attention to your wife. Then show her that you are paying attention. If something is important to her help her without her having to ask you for it. My thing it to leave notes telling her I see her and what she is doing. So if she worked really hard to decorate the house for the holiday's I might leave a note an tell her how nice the house looks and how thankful I am that she made it so nice for us. I think that is a good way to make her feel important, safe and protected. I think that is what you need for her to open up to you sexually. Besides being attracted to you. Get the emotional stuff down first so she feels safe, then move onto the flirty sexy stuff.
> 
> ...


Can I TRIPLE "Like" this post?? Lol!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I think we glossed over post #31 where the OP says his wife keeps most of her income for herself yet he supports her in her career path (which I interpret as he picks up the household slack).

This seems to be a larger respect issue where she does not feel moved to invest effort for his benefit.


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