# Husband extremely tight with money



## La Lou

Hello all

I am devastated.......

I've been married for four years. We have had our ups and downs but we have had the hardest part after our first child was born. We have 2 boys. One is 19 months and one 7 months old. 

My husband has always been tight on money but somehow I looked aaway. I was in love and I still am..but it's breaking me...

He has never taken me out to a restaurant without complaining. Before we got married we never went to a restaurant. When we got married I took him to a restaurant. In the year that followed we never went to a restaurant. We did go drink a coffee sometimes but whenever I wanted to buy a sandwich or something sweet with it he always made me feel like I shouldnt..and I accepted this..dont ask me why. The only other times we went to a restaurant was when we were in his country and we were far from his family house and we really needed to eat something. In those weeks I also complained about it so that was the only other time and the first time HE took me to one. So in total of 4 years of marriage (know each other nearly 6 years) weve been three times to a restaurant.

I have given him signs I'd like to go (walking past a restaurant telling him I'd like to try their menu etc ) and I have been straightforward as well..he said he doesnt like their food. Now dont tell me that from the millions of restaurants there's not any with good food. .. bull**** if youd ask me.

Now its not only with restaurants and eating out. If I buy something for myself he says stuff like 'wow you really buy a lot' or 'wow you really do like to spoil yourself' and always has to know how much I've been spending even on the smallest things that only cost a couple pounds. 

We buy the clothes for our children second hand. I dont have a problem with tht because I am not a big spender and I like to use our money efficiently and save some too. The kids are very young and grow out of their clothes quickly. But lately I want to buy them NEW shoes because I dont feel comfortable giving them used shoes. Their feet have to grow and I dont think its clean either. He doesnt agree...but at the same time he buys himself a pair of timberlands...GAP clothes etc. Mind you he did buy me 2 GAP dresses. So sometimes he makes me feel like he isnt that tight with money..thats why I think I have looked away many times. 

When we are doing our weekly groceries and I want to pick some kind of fruit or anything else that we usually dont he says we dont need it and I should put it back. I feel quiet embarressed so I try to avoid the discussion in store but let him know at home. Like avocados.. no they arent cheap but i love them and they are healthy. He says I never eat them. bUT I know he means 'expensive' becaus ehe said this many times before and when I accuse him of being cheap he says he isnt' So he is using the words differently. I have thrown away an avocado once because I forgot it was there...but I hate to throw away food and try to avoid this at all times..and he knows this..

I can give many more examples but bottom line is...he controlls every penny I spend, we dont go out to restaurants, buying make up is an issue as well..i dont buy it a lot and not the expensive brands but again...its a waste of money...the kids cant have new shoes...and I dont know how to spend money (I never had a high income but always managed to spoi myself and save money and pay my bills.. ) We are not rich but not poor either. We can easily go out every two weeks, buy our kids new shoes, buy make up every month (how much is it 10 pounds a month ?? and buy the food we like to eat at home..AND save money AND go on a holiday once a year..we can afford this...so why why is he doing this and denying it and when I address the issue he acts as if I am the terrible wife that is never satisfied? I am NOT materialistic at all..but this is driving me insane...its even making me fall out of love with him

I really dont know how to talk to him becaus ehe sees me as a nagging woman (trust me I cut down the nagging a ong time ago but sometimes issues like these have to be addressed dont they?) I am very very sad about this. I always cook at home never eat out. The sun is shining outside and im home cooking...

Another example for if ou guys think im just one of those materialistic women. I was pregnant with baby number one and craving pizza.

I never order food we neer eat out
that day I ordered 1 pizza

he made a big deal out of it...because its oh so expensive...:-(


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## whatslovegottodowithit?

I'm sorry, it must be tough! This is the man you picked and had children with...good luck trying to change him now.


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## La Lou

well I do think I know the reason why he is like this It's not because he doesn't want to provide and take care of us or make us happy. His father was extremely poor...he even used to wear plastic sandals instead of decent shoes...he ONCE admitted that he was a bit too tight with money but justified it by saying his brothers are worse...I think hes tired off al problems he is having PLUS me nagging about it... We dont have many problems in our marriage. We love each other and spend each day and night with each other. He is home as much as he can. Alway leaves the last bite of food for me. Always allows me to nap while he takes care of the kids even if hes tired as well He helps with the housework every now and then..problem is since he is in this country he hasn tbeen able to find a job. He is a par ttime cleaner and he has never worker for such a low salary and never been a cleaner beofre. Times are tought especially when moving to a new country...I have supported him a lot emotionally but after 3 years of job crisis I am tired of him saying there are no jobs.. I admit it is extremely hard to find something especially considering his age but it isnt impossible...so I exploded and told him I was tired of him not being a man :-( worst thing I could have done...while i told him almost right after that that was very stupid and a big lie...I'm sure deep within he thinks I dont see him as a good man....


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## La Lou

sorry for my spelling and grammar im exhausted and next to that english is not my first language


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## Hope1964

Who makes the money, and who pays for what as far as bills go?


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## long_done

Suggest marriage counseling.


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## Coffee Amore

You're not in America, right? Where do you live if you don't mind me asking.

This sounds like it could be from his culture. How tight are people with money in his country/culture?


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## EleGirl

How old are you and your husband? 

What is both of your education level?

Were the two of you married before moving to the country you are in now? I'm wondering if he had a better paying job before if he was not so tight with the money then.

Are you completely aware of what all the bills are and how much he earns? If he truly does not earn enough to support all of you then I can understand what he's doing. But the two of you have to know where every bit of money goes to.

It's completely reasonable for you to get some money monthly that you can spend as you wish. You should not have to beg him for money if there is money.

The fact that he is controlling the money and you have no say at all in how the money is spent is problematic. It's called economic abuse. 

If you have the money to buy new shoes for your children, they need to have new shoes. If they wear used shoes, the health of their feet can be compromised. The child who wore them before had a different shape foot, they put the pressure on their feet in a manner different from your child. The used shoes will have been broken in to the shape, etc of the other kid. This is not good for your child's feet.


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## *LittleDeer*

I would suggest you insist on counseling. 

Let your husband know that it's important to save, however you want there to be balance. He needs to have fun with you too. 

Perhaps write him a letter about how his behaviour is effecting you, and how you feel about him. That you understand that being careful with money is important, but so is enjoying life.


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## long_done

Is this a deal breaker issue? If it is, be prepared to file for divorce and get out. You alone can assess this.


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## Miss Independent

La Lou said:


> problem is since he is in this country he hasn tbeen able to find a job. He is a par ttime cleaner and he has never worker for such a low salary and never been a cleaner beofre. Times are tought especially when moving to a new country...I have supported him a lot emotionally but after 3 years of job crisis I am tired of him saying there are no jobs.. I admit it is extremely hard to find something especially considering his age but it isnt impossible...so I exploded and told him I was tired of him not being a man :-( worst thing I could have done...while i told him almost right after that that was very stupid and a big lie...I'm sure deep within he thinks I dont see him as a good man....



I'm a little bit confused. You say that he is a part-time cleaner, so he doesn't earn a lot. I understand why he's tight with money (correct me if I'm wrong). Do you work? Are you aware of the monthly budget? Or are you in the dark?


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## annoyedhubby

sounds like he doesn't have the money


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## EleGirl

annoyedhubby said:


> sounds like he doesn't have the money


We don't know that yet. That's why people are asking her questions.


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## Aerith

OP,

My impression you are very young. 

You are talking about restaurant, make up, clothing and holidays spending but never mentioned rent, utilities bills, insurances, taxes, car expenses and so on.

Does your husband earn enough to cover those necessary expenses?


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## Theseus

Maybe it's time to get your own job. Then spend what you want, and he can't really complain about it.


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## La Lou

EleGirl said:


> How old are you and your husband?
> 
> What is both of your education level?
> 
> Were the two of you married before moving to the country you are in now? I'm wondering if he had a better paying job before if he was not so tight with the money then.
> 
> Are you completely aware of what all the bills are and how much he earns? If he truly does not earn enough to support all of you then I can understand what he's doing. But the two of you have to know where every bit of money goes to.
> 
> It's completely reasonable for you to get some money monthly that you can spend as you wish. You should not have to beg him for money if there is money.
> 
> The fact that he is controlling the money and you have no say at all in how the money is spent is problematic. It's called economic abuse.
> 
> If you have the money to buy new shoes for your children, they need to have new shoes. If they wear used shoes, the health of their feet can be compromised. The child who wore them before had a different shape foot, they put the pressure on their feet in a manner different from your child. The used shoes will have been broken in to the shape, etc of the other kid. This is not good for your child's feet.


Hi there thank you for your time

We both were married before moving to this country. He hasn't finished his education because his parents eventually couldn't pay for it. They were very poor and the type of education was unaffordable. He made a wrong decision that time and he is still regretting it (he is 42 now and this happened over 20 years ago). 

We have a shared account and I know exactly how much is coming in and out. He has got a extreme low income (minimum wage and only working part time) and I am currenty a stay at home mom but stil get paid half of my wages). I am not working now because my youngest is only 8 months old now and I feel that it is very important for a mother to stay home. We both do. 

I don't think it is cultural although where he is from you have got the people who are very careful and then youve got the people who just love to spend. This is because of the bad economy over there. 

He is right about watching our money. I completely agree. But despite having a low income he has saved up a lot of money before we got married and he is investing that money. Even if we have a low income we still manage to save 9000-10.000 pounds a year. So even with a low income at the moment WE ARE NOT POOR. I am not asking him to waste money like crazy bubt it would be nice to be able to buy shoes for my kids without worrying about his reaction. I cannot stress enough how much I feel that we should be careful but we shouldn't suffer when we don't have to.

I have been thinking a lot and I think he has got an extreme low self esteem. When I tell him 'you are the best man and father' he always says that he isn't or he says 'maybe, I'm not so sure about that' . Or when I tell him that he is so sexy he tells me 'sexy was 20 years ago' ...and I honestly mean what I say.... its complex.............................


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## La Lou

*LittleDeer* said:


> I would suggest you insist on counseling.
> 
> Let your husband know that it's important to save, however you want there to be balance. He needs to have fun with you too.
> 
> Perhaps write him a letter about how his behaviour is effecting you, and how you feel about him. That you understand that being careful with money is important, but so is enjoying life.


Thank you littledeer.

He won't do counselling. It's not only expensive but he thinks it bull****. 
I wrote thousands of letters and although my post here are not very professional..I am a quiet good writer and can express my feelings very well on paper. He reads them all...he feels with me...and I see that he tries to change...but sometimes he falls back into his old pattern. Told him many times how I wish we could take a day off from the kids and just enjoy being together. I am not sure if he wants that. Although he loves me and cares about me I just DONT KNOW WHATS GOING ON IN HIS MIND. Told him many times that I really need to know what he is thinking of (he stares a lot at the walls lately) because I want to be there for him. And he keeps saying 'nothing im just tired' ..I can see his pain in his eyes..but I can't keep guessing :-(Its really difficult to open up his heart.


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## La Lou

Aerith said:


> OP,
> 
> My impression you are very young.
> 
> You are talking about restaurant, make up, clothing and holidays spending but never mentioned rent, utilities bills, insurances, taxes, car expenses and so on.
> 
> Does your husband earn enough to cover those necessary expenses?


True...I am young.. but I have lived on my own since I was 18. I have always managed to take care of myself. The bills have ALWAYS come first. When those are paid I make sure I have enough money to buy food and I always do (I never earned much either). And I always have managed to have money left to spend on myself AND to save. Being young doesn't mean I cant be responsible with money. I have paid my own education my own rent everything everything myself. I have never been in debts I have always had money on the side and still been able to do the nice things in life. I have tried to show my husband that we have got enough money to do some nice things weekly and I have made budgets and shown him that we can save too. But he refuses to look at it...what can I do? Young or old..any woman wants to be able to buy some make up???


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## La Lou

Theseus said:


> Maybe it's time to get your own job. Then spend what you want, and he can't really complain about it.


We both have an agreement that I stay home until they go to school unless he can look after the kids while I work part time. Either way imnot doing nothing. I am studying ttowards a degree so that when they go to school I have more chance to get a good paid job hopefully. Im just worried he qill be this way even if we would be paid well
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You need to make an agreement that each of you get a certain amount of discretionary spending. It's not healthy for you to have to ask him for what you want. Agree on a small amount each week that you will take out of the bank account, and he is free to do the same. (If he doesn't take his out, do NOT let him guilt you about that; he will try; your job is to tell him that that's his problem, not yours) If you spend it, great, that's all you get to spend that week; if you don't spend it, you can save it and combine it with next week's money for something bigger like shoes for your kid.

This is a matter of you STATING that your views are just as valid as his and then ACTING on that statement and no longer allowing him and only him to determine what you get. Sorry, but you will have to learn to grow a backbone over this. I didn't, and I suffered 30 years like that until I finally said enough is enough.


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## Jellybeans

Theseus said:


> Maybe it's time to get your own job. Then spend what you want, and he can't really complain about it.


:iagree:

Also, OP said:

_*He has never taken me out to a restaurant without complaining. Before we got married we never went to a restaurant. When we got married I took him to a restaurant. In the year that followed we never went to a restaurant*_

So you knew he was tight with money before you married him, right?


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## papa5280

Have the two of you ever sat down and built a budget? I'd suggest you do that. There is plenty of free software available to help. Lay-out how much money is coming in, how much goes to necessary bills (rent, food, insurance, gas, utilities, car payments, etc.), how much goes to savings, both short term and retirement (don't skip this part), and what's left.

What's left is discretionary. Together, you can choose how to spend it. Using this, you can prove to him that you can afford restaurants and shopping, or he can prove to you that you can't. If you can't, then the alternatives are to figure out ways to save on the necessary bills, such as finding a cheaper place to live or using public transportation. Or, you can figure out ways to bring more money in. It's a balanced equation: Income = Mandatory Bills - Savings - Discretionary Spending. 

You said that you have put together some budgets. If he won't look at them, why not?


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## chillymorn

he only works a part time mimimum wage job?

sorry but I would say you are poor. 

staying home for the kids is good if you can afford that but it sounds like keeping your family together and having more money might trump the staying home for the kids.

maybe its time to reevaulate your though process on staying home for the kids.


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## La Lou

turnera said:


> You need to make an agreement that each of you get a certain amount of discretionary spending. It's not healthy for you to have to ask him for what you want. Agree on a small amount each week that you will take out of the bank account, and he is free to do the same. (If he doesn't take his out, do NOT let him guilt you about that; he will try; your job is to tell him that that's his problem, not yours) If you spend it, great, that's all you get to spend that week; if you don't spend it, you can save it and combine it with next week's money for something bigger like shoes for your kid.
> 
> This is a matter of you STATING that your views are just as valid as his and then ACTING on that statement and no longer allowing him and only him to determine what you get. Sorry, but you will have to learn to grow a backbone over this. I didn't, and I suffered 30 years like that until I finally said enough is enough.


Thank you

I do not need to ask him for money. We have a shared account, but he does check up on me CONSTANTLY and tries to make me feel guilty about each penny I spend. .He says I use the bank card every day. which is true. So we went through the bank statements and he saw that everything I spend is for our babies (milk food etc nothing unnessecary). When he sees me coming home with clothes he thinks ive been spending hundreds while I only have been spending a few pounds (literaly I buy clothes from primark that are on sale for less than 3 pounds each and I never spend more than 10 pound a week on myself) I tried what you suggested. First I calculated our income. Then I deducted all expenses (rent, bills, food car etc) then I deducted what we should be saving every month and then I split the money that was left by two and told him this is his and this is mine and we shall do what ever we wish. He said he wont be spending it. I said thats fine he can even clean his ass with it its his. He cant complain because everything is paid and we put enough money into savings... but no mister wasn't happy with that and said 'do what ever you want with the money go ahead and spend it all but dont come back to me and cry because we have nothing left'...now HOW the hell do I answer this without going insane.


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## La Lou

It would be nice if people would actually read what I have to say.i know I talk a lot but I see a lot of comments passing by that don't make any sense. No. We are no poor. We have got huge (and I mean huge) savings. We have already invested money next to those huge savings. I am not suggesting we should be using all of that money. No. We are having a low income. Yes but after budgetting we can still spend some money on the nice things about twice a month. I don't need to give you the exact numbers. What matters is that My husband did look at the budget. He saw that all the number were correct and he still refuses to do what I suggest. Depression? Yes. Insecurity? Yes. Trying to control me? I'm not sure!!! I need your help guys...so stop judging me. I am not trying to waste all of our money and I am not young enough to understand expenses. You see not everyone is the same. Ive been taking care of myself and my sister since I can remember..I;ve been working since I was 12... so stop that bull**** thank you very much


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## oddball

It sounds like your husband has a spiritual problem with money. My mother has this. No matter how much she has, she has a very deap seated fear of being poor again. My mother is mean with money as a result. And she is always telling me how she is short of money. Yet she has huge savings and investments. Its not rational, and reflects to me a spiritual inadequacy - an incapacity for gratitude and deap seated fear.


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## happy as a clam

Have him read the book "Your Money or Your Life" by Vicki Rubin. It might help him develop a new relationship with money and a new outlook on spending moderately.

His issues sound very deep-rooted. I grew up with parents and grandparents who remember the Depression era; it forever clouded their thinking about money (understandably) but life is too short to always worry about money and feeling deprived.

It sounds like you are very good at managing money; he needs to learn to trust your judgment and let go of some of the worry.

I heard on the news yesterday that the average American family has $3,800 in savings; it sounds like you are well ahead of that average


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## turnera

Again, this won't change until YOU change. You can't make HIM change, but you can alter how you react and what you put up with. You don't have to accept his rules. You are 50% of your marriage so you get to make 50% of the rules, so to speak. You just have to be willing to take a stand.


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## PBear

When he says "go ahead and spend the rest of it", say "thank you for trusting me", and then do what you need or want to do with it. If he choses to bank his share, let him do that. That's HIS issue, stop making it yours. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## La Lou

Oddball: You are so right about the spiritual thing. We talked about that about a year ago and he admitted he might have an issue with his childhood where his dad very very poor and that he should change that. But he never did

Happy as a clam: its difficult to make him read such books but I will try. The issues are indeed deep rooted. And yes I am quiet good at managing money just want him to trust me and let go of the stereotype idea that women just throw away money like its nothing

PBear: I will go through our budget again and I will do exactly what you said. He will be pleasantly surprised. And I need to get the balls to do what I want for once.


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## turnera

Yes. This truly IS about YOU. I went to therapy for years and the one thing she kept saying to me is that it's up to ME to make the changes. No asking permission, no asking him to change, no waiting on him to change - just making it happen. I used to think all kinds of terrible things would happen if I stood up for myself. They didn't. In fact, the more I stood up for myself, the gentler with me he became.


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## Wiltshireman

OP,

You tell us that your husband grew up poor and as he only works a minimum wage job your income is low so he has got into the habit of watching every penny (dime).

As with many habits they can become obsessions and even when they are no longer necessary people continue with them. 

Thankfully you have managed to accrue some savings but he may see those as vital protection for a emergency not to be (in his eyes) squandered on meals out / treats.

As an example of how habits adopted in times of need can effect you for the rest of your life I will tell you about my paternal grandmother. She brought up her the children on the strict rationing we had in the UK during and after WW2. She spent so many years making meals stretch and often going hungry herself so that the kids could eat that even when rationing ended and my grandfather was earning good money she insisted on cooking austerity meals.

This is not to say for husband can't change only that any change will be slow and gradual.

IMHO As you knew about his upbringing and habits before you married you should try and help him adjust to your new circumstances. Moaning or making a big deal of things will probably just cause conflict without resolving the issue but gentle hints and support can achieve more in the long run.

softly softly catchee monkey.


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## 3kgtmitsu

you haven't mentioned what income level your at, and do you struggle with bills etc??

I can understand if money is always tight, of course extra spending even how insignificant it may seem it causes stress, especially if he is the sole breadwinner.

But theres a whole other thing which is just being a tight wad and hoarding money and depriving your family, which is just as bad as overspending when you cant afford it.


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## rick31797

La Lou said:


> Oddball: You are so right about the spiritual thing. We talked about that about a year ago and he admitted he might have an issue with his childhood where his dad very very poor and that he should change that. But he never did
> 
> Happy as a clam: its difficult to make him read such books but I will try. The issues are indeed deep rooted. And yes I am quiet good at managing money just want him to trust me and let go of the stereotype idea that women just throw away money like its nothing
> 
> PBear: I will go through our budget again and I will do exactly what you said. He will be pleasantly surprised. And I need to get the balls to do what I want for once.



When he says "go ahead and spend the rest of it", i would say to him, i want to go out and have a nice meal, would you join me.. i am paying... if he says no, then you need to say, then you can look after the kids while i treat myself.

IF you follow through, then the next time maybe he will go with you, if you decide not to go either, then he knows he has control over you..


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## La Lou

rick31797 said:


> When he says "go ahead and spend the rest of it", i would say to him, i want to go out and have a nice meal, would you join me.. i am paying... if he says no, then you need to say, then you can look after the kids while i treat myself.
> 
> IF you follow through, then the next time maybe he will go with you, if you decide not to go either, then he knows he has control over you..


Good one..

He has changed a bit before I could even try out all of your tips..

I bought some things very cheap but I needed for the kitchen (seriously 3 pounds or something). And he was moaning about it so I just lost it and cried and cried. I even gave him the gold he gave me when we got married and told him that if money is that dear to him he could take my gold sell it and kiss it. I was DONE..I guess he needed that...he has changed quiete a bit..nothing extreme but I can see he is trying hard not to be cheap anymore..and although we havent gone to a restaurant yet or something like that..i appreciate the small changes for now.


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## JASON58

A small change is better then nothing at all, it looks like it may be a work in progress, and he may need reminders, or he will slide back into his old ways..


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## turnera

Great. Now it's the weekend. Pick out a restaurant. Tell him you want to go. When he says no, tell him he can watch the kid, then, because YOU are going.


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## SimplyAmorous

La Lou....from every post you put on this thread.. there is no way on this side of the ocean or country he is going to find a woman as frugal as yourself.. I am impressed...when I 1st clicked on this thread, I was expecting to read about a wife who was a bit liberal in the spending - complaining about her husband.. but upon reading this.. it's very clear YOU ARE THE STABLE minded one here...and HE has some issues -due to his very poor childhood, as others said.. obsessions.



> *La Lou said*: has changed a bit before I could even try out all of your tips..
> 
> I bought some things very cheap but I needed for the kitchen (seriously 3 pounds or something). And he was moaning about it so I just lost it and cried and cried. I even gave him the gold he gave me when we got married and told him that if money is that dear to him he could take my gold sell it and kiss it. I was DONE..I guess he needed that...he has changed quiete a bit..nothing extreme but I can see he is trying hard not to be cheap anymore..and although we havent gone to a restaurant yet or something like that..i appreciate the small changes for now.


 this is so sad... that it came to THIS.. but it sounds it reached him .... so not all in vain.. Good to hear he is slowly changing...

I understand how a couple can be low income and still have money saved for a rainy day, what I call a torrential downpour...when we were younger....H was working at just a Grocery store for the 1st 10 yrs of our marriage... We were very frugal...we always had money saved back.. this was a great comfort to us...

But this is the thing your Husband needs to see.. he CAN RELAX.. allow for a night out....revel in some pleasure, what good is money if all you do is fight & fret about it.. The sad thing is.. he will look back someday and regret the missed opportunities of enjoyment he passed up ..we only pass this way one time... there is a balance in all things.. he can take out of his reserves for pleasure, good food, something special that will be a delight to you/ him/ family.. celebrate a memory now & then...you won't even miss it.. this is something he needs to grow in..


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## La Lou

SimplyAmorous said:


> La Lou....from every post you put on this thread.. there is no way on this side of the ocean or country he is going to find a woman as frugal as yourself.. I am impressed...when I 1st clicked on this thread, I was expecting to read about a wife who was a bit liberal in the spending - complaining about her husband.. but upon reading this.. it's very clear YOU ARE THE STABLE minded one here...and HE has some issues -due to his very poor childhood, as others said.. obsessions.
> 
> this is so sad... that it came to THIS.. but it sounds it reached him .... so not all in vain.. Good to hear he is slowly changing...
> 
> I understand how a couple can be low income and still have money saved for a rainy day, what I call a torrential downpour...when we were younger....H was working at just a Grocery store for the 1st 10 yrs of our marriage... We were very frugal...we always had money saved back.. this was a great comfort to us...
> 
> But this is the thing your Husband needs to see.. he CAN RELAX.. allow for a night out....revel in some pleasure, what good is money if all you do is fight & fret about it.. The sad thing is.. he will look back someday and regret the missed opportunities of enjoyment he passed up ..we only pass this way one time... there is a balance in all things.. he can take out of his reserves for pleasure, good food, something special that will be a delight to you/ him/ family.. celebrate a memory now & then...you won't even miss it.. this is something he needs to grow in..



Wow,.. your comment really has touched me. Thank you so much for understanding me COMPLETELY. I might even show him your response... Thank you for taking me serious...Not many people do


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