# Chemistry problems?



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ok, here's a brief history: Married 21 years. We started dating when I was 19, she was 20. Now I'm 42 and she's 43. Had our #2 kid in 2000 and began a 10 year sexless (about 1x a month) period with some brief periods of increased frequency. By the end of 2011 I had had it and was ready to walk. In Feb 2012 I read MMSLP, made some changes and our frequency went through the roof (relatively speaking). By December of 2012 we had slowed down to a routine of 1-2 times per week.

The problems started resurfacing in February I guess. The thing is, she knows I keep track and if we go more than a week I complain so she makes sure that doesn't happen. Actually she'll probably do it anytime I ask, and once we get started it's pretty good. About the only thing she doesn't do much of is kissing. 

The issue that I have (and yes it's my issue....she thinks it's nothing and actually denies that it happens) is that I can't initiate. After so many years of rejection I'm already hyper sensitive to rejection. I really find it unacceptable. Whenever I try to start anything (I'm talking 100% of the time) she will find a reason that I'm doing it wrong. Too fast, too slow, too hard, too soft, too whatever. Then I'll roll over and just lay there. At that point she'll start initiating herself. But I just lay there, paralyzed, stifled, hoping that I don't do anything wrong. She'll keep at it until I give in and join in.

I told her all of this today (again). She denies that it happens. Then she says she's trying to not let it happen. I feel like I just don't want to do it anymore. I want a wife who I feel safe with. I want to be able to initiate and know that she'll welcome me.

It happened again last night. I apparently started too fast. So I went and took a shower and came back to bed. Then she tried to initiate. But I just told her that the mood was killed and I didn't want to. She pushed, so I told her that her earlier rejection just turned me off and that I didn't think I could get it up while I was still fuming. So we turned out the lights and went to sleep. This morning she said that we really need to do it tonight. But I'm still not all that interested. She just finished her period Monday so this is the one week per month that she's genuinely horny.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I hear what you are saying. Sexual mismatch sucks.

But to me, I "read" a lot of contempt and almost hatred for your wife in most of your posts. I have always assumed she isn't into you because you hate her. Whether you do or not, your posts sound like you do...so if I'm reading that, I don't know how she couldn't be.

Maybe you have perfectly good reason to hate her, I don't know. But if that is the case, why do you want to have sex with her at all?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I've read your story countless times and it makes perfect sense to me.

10 years sexless means she doesn't like sex. Now whether it's just with you or anyone I don't know.

She does however value being married to you which is why she puts forth 'some' effort but she still doesn't like sex. Therefore her reflex is to say no.

Oh and btw it's utter and total bs that she's not aware that she's doing this. If she can get you to buy into her excuse then she gets a free pass. 

Sadly I think she does just enough to keep you.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It seems like he does just enough to keep her, too.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

What you're reading isn't hate. It's frustration. And yes, years of resentment.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Maybe not hate but definitely contempt.

Either way, why would you even want to have sex with her? I'm sure she feels the contempt. She probably has it for you, too.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Anyway my point is....sure there may have been chemistry problems all along. She is LD, etc.

Now you have contempt for her. It happens.

However...you can't fix a sex issue when contempt is present. IMO. So you'll have to find some way to stop resenting her AND she will have some way to do the same....if she doesn't want to face her own issues, there's nothing you can do.

But how will you face your issues? That's the only place you can start.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Maybe not hate but definitely contempt.
> 
> Either way, why would you even want to have sex with her? I'm sure she feels the contempt. She probably has it for you, too.




If someones been cheated out of 10 years of sex, out of physical affirmations, don't you think they would have alot of internal rage built up? Being in a sexless/affectionless situation is worse than being alone.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Ok, here's a brief history: Married 21 years. We started dating when I was 19, she was 20. Now I'm 42 and she's 43. Had our #2 kid in 2000 and began a 10 year sexless (about 1x a month) period with some brief periods of increased frequency. By the end of 2011 I had had it and was ready to walk. In Feb 2012 I read MMSLP, made some changes and our frequency went through the roof (relatively speaking). By December of 2012 we had slowed down to a routine of 1-2 times per week.
> 
> The problems started resurfacing in February I guess. The thing is, she knows I keep track and if we go more than a week I complain so she makes sure that doesn't happen. Actually she'll probably do it anytime I ask, and once we get started it's pretty good. About the only thing she doesn't do much of is kissing.
> 
> ...


So , I had an appt with my therapist yesterday and talked about this very thing. It's very hard to initiate sex, apologize or open up emotionally to someone you don't trust. Initiating sex is making yourself vulnerable, and you simply won't do this with someone you do not trust. My therapist called this relationship status, "In reconciliation, but not yet safe for conflict". You have to work through the resentments you have been keeping from one another and begin to rebuild trust by making deposits in the love bank. I am planning to slowly work through the HNHN emotional needs inventory and the love buster dialogs. It'll take time, be patient with one another and let her know when she triggers you. Kindest Regards-


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I know exactly what you're talking about. Our love life became pretty much non-existent when the kids came along (nearly 10 years ago), and the rejections took their toll on me as well. I would have the same kind of reactions you're talking about. It got to the point with me where the slightest negative reaction would stop me in my tracks. The resentment got so bad that just thinking about sex would make me angry--even seeing it on TV would make me have to leave the room sometimes. On the extremely rare occasions where she'd initiate, I'd often give her the "corpse" treatment, then I'd be angry with myself.....you know the routine.

Honestly I think it's gotten better the last few months. MMSLP did help me come to grips with the fact that I'm just going to have to push through that initial "no" (unless it's a hard NO). Doing this actually has increased our frequency and quality. I've added some other stuff in from some of the other books I've heard about on TAM.

It takes time to let go of 10 years worth of rejection. It's not going to happen overnight. It helps if you can get your wife to understand what you're feeling. I think i'm making a little progress in that respect (hopefully).

Just keep working on you.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

It's not chemistry, its who's in control or lack of it



WorkingOnMe said:


> The thing is, she knows I keep track and if we go more than a week I complain so she makes sure that doesn't happen.


Complaining about sex is about as unattractive to most women as it gets. Don't complain. Sex is a part of the marriage it is expected. And it is expected to be good for both of you.



WorkingOnMe said:


> Actually she'll probably do it anytime I ask, and once we get started it's pretty good.


Then why the rejection hang over. You will never get past this until you can initiate on a regular basis. If she rejects you, don't fall back ten paces. Try again in a day or two. Don't mope, pout and complain. A direct approach to her showing your desire for her body, love, sex is much more atractive.



WorkingOnMe said:


> Whenever I try to start anything (I'm talking 100% of the time) she will find a reason that I'm doing it wrong. Too fast, too slow, too hard, too soft, too whatever.


She's blocking you to keep under her terms. Next time it happens, tell her this is how you want it tonight. Next time we'll do it your way then proceed. 



WorkingOnMe said:


> Then I'll roll over and just lay there. At that point she'll start initiating herself. But I just lay there, paralyzed, stifled, hoping that I don't do anything wrong.


She's controlling the situation to her needs and sorry, she's got you well trained.



WorkingOnMe said:


> She'll keep at it until I give in and join in.


 See above

WOM, I fought this kind of battle for years and it wasn't until I finally made her understand that sex is part of my needs in the marriage and I expect it that it improved. I want her to enjoy being with me and am more than willing to give her the sexual acts she enjoys as well. I posted the conversation better than a year ago and have quoted it here several times, but it boiled down to this. I told her we were going to enter into a 60 day period where she would "submit herself to me" when I wanted sexual intimacy. She agreed and we got into a very good pattern. It helped the situation immensely and has continued today. In the past 18 month she has requested we not have sex twice. Don't whine, state your needs/expectations and when you are with her don't always let her control the tempo. There two people in the bed.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

She not into you sexually if it's that easy for you to annoy her with your attempts. Or maybe she's got her own resentments that keep her from just relaxing and enjoying it. 

My H and I were very low sex for about ten years, too. Fixed it, but still have to work on it. I noticed that he's still reluctant to initiate unless it's really clear I'll accept. Sucks--I want him to reach for me so bad sometimes. After a few days of no sex, I start to shut down emotionally, too, and I'm calling my therapist so I can bust through the resentment and get things kick started in the bedroom again. 

I doubt there's much more you can do, but if I HAD to give you one piece of advice it would be to learn to overcome your aversion to rejection and just keep letting her know you want her. Would have made a difference for me. *shrug*


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

treyvion said: "If someones been cheated out of 10 years of sex, out of physical affirmations, don't you think they would have alot of internal rage built up? Being in a sexless/affectionless situation is worse than being alone."


I already acknowledged that yes, this happens, it is to be expected.

So now were are here 10 years later and he wants to have sex with his wife. How does he expect her to ignore his contempt?

I'm sure she has contempt, too.

No woman wants to have sex when there is contempt for her in the room.

He's here, so we can only talk to him...so I'm talking about this issue. He will either have to be able to work through all of the resentment, or more likely what he will do, is just stay in his resentment and nothing will change.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Isn't this a chicken/egg debate? What came first? Who pushed over the first domino?

She withdrew his top need and he got resentful. Or did he get resentful then she withdrew his top need.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm sure it was both of them.

But now....how to handle?

Counseling.

Reading.

Trying.

But most definitely.....each must work through their own resentments.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I know exactly what you're talking about. Our love life became pretty much non-existent when the kids came along (nearly 10 years ago), and the rejections took their toll on me as well. I would have the same kind of reactions you're talking about. It got to the point with me where the slightest negative reaction would stop me in my tracks. The resentment got so bad that just thinking about sex would make me angry--even seeing it on TV would make me have to leave the room sometimes. On the extremely rare occasions where she'd initiate, I'd often give her the "corpse" treatment, then I'd be angry with myself.....you know the routine.
> 
> Honestly I think it's gotten better the last few months. MMSLP did help me come to grips with the fact that I'm just going to have to push through that initial "no" (unless it's a hard NO). Doing this actually has increased our frequency and quality. I've added some other stuff in from some of the other books I've heard about on TAM.
> 
> ...


Even seeing people kissing and mild forms of intimacy such as hand holding can make you feel cheated when you are in this position.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> The resentment got so bad that just thinking about sex would make me angry--even seeing it on TV would make me have to leave the room sometimes.


One time, around 2008 I think (back when bj's were given about once a decade and it had been years) she told me about her friend. A Mormon woman she knows who told her that she was giving her husband a bj on his birthday and his mother walked in. She thought that was hilarious. She couldn't figure out why the story of the goody goody Mormon girl giving head pissed me off.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

I know a similiar feeling. While dating my H would tease me all day and then reject me each time. By the end of the day I had been rejected so often I was definately not in the mood. And, ofcourse this is when he would finally want it. It was almost as if he got off on teasing and not pleasing. 

Anyways....

What a huge crush it must be trying to be intimate with your wife only to be critisized each time. I can see how this would deflate your mood. It's seems like she's almost saying nothing is good enough by what you said. Ask her to show you what she wants instead of telling you. Ask her to move your hand at the speed she likes. Let her take control of her own pleasure. Once you do this for awhile you may see a pattern and could probably do it on your own.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

What if....your wife just isn't that into you or just isn't that into sex...and what if this is never going to change.

If you knew this for sure, what would your next move be?

Because it very well could be that.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> What if....your wife just isn't that into you or just isn't that into sex...and what if this is never going to change.
> 
> If you knew this for sure, what would your next move be?
> 
> Because it very well could be that.


:iagree:

And this will go a long way to deal with the resentment because there is closure in deciding what that 'next move' is.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

tracyishere said:


> Ask her to show you what she wants instead of telling you. Ask her to move your hand at the speed she likes. Let her take control of her own pleasure. Once you do this for awhile you may see a pattern and could probably do it on your own.


The thing is, once we're started she really gets into it. We both do. She gets off every time. We do a lot of freaky stuff. Toys, bondage, blindfolds etc... I know how to touch her the way she likes and she reinforces the good that I do in that regard. It's that first 10 seconds that is off. I can't put myself out there to start because the instant reflex is rejection. But a minute later, as long as it's HER initiating, she's good to go.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The thing is, once we're started she really gets into it. We both do. She gets off every time. We do a lot of freaky stuff. Toys, bondage, blindfolds etc... I know how to touch her the way she likes and she reinforces the good that I do in that regard. It's that first 10 seconds that is off. I can't put myself out there to start because the instant reflex is rejection. But a minute later, as long as it's HER initiating, she's good to go.


Can you accept this dynamic? Can you come to peace and acceptance that this is just the way she is?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Can you accept this dynamic? Can you come to peace and acceptance that this is just the way she is?


No, I really can't. As I said, I want a marriage where I feel safe that if I initiate my wife will be receptive to me. Funny when I told her this she said "All I can say is OMG what do you think I am going to do?" Like she thought I meant physically unsafe or something. It's like the whole conversation just went right over her head.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

Ya, and she's probably initiating because she feels guilty. I think she needs more to set her in the mood. Perhaps it's the way you initiate. Do you swoon her? Do you get right at it? Are you agressive or passive? 

What's your main method? Maybe it needs a change.

My H used to turn me off when his form of initiating involved just lying on the bed "waiting".


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> What if....your wife just isn't that into you or just isn't that into sex...and what if this is never going to change.
> 
> If you knew this for sure, what would your next move be?
> 
> Because it very well could be that.


It's possible. Hell, it's even likely. It's also possible that you can change her mind about you.

I still love my wife enough to want to fix what we have. That's why I'm going to keep trying whatever I need to do until it's either fixed, or she tells me that she doesn't want me.

WOM--until she flat out tells you that she doesn't want you, I say don't give up.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Funny when I told her this she said "All I can say is OMG what do you think I am going to do?" Like she thought I meant physically unsafe or something. It's like the whole conversation just went right over her head.


Many women don't understand this. She took the word 'safe' literally. She doesn't get how deep her rejection cuts you.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Well you have your answer then, if you can't accept it. She is like this, she doesn't acknowledge the problem, she isn't going to change.

So no, it isn't a chemistry problem.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

tracyishere said:


> Ya, and she's probably initiating because she feels guilty. I think she needs more to set her in the mood. Perhaps it's the way you intiate. Do you swoon her? Do you get right at it? Are you agressive or passive?
> 
> What's your main method? Maybe it needs a change.


I suppose it's different all the time. So, I described last night what happened. But I didn't say what happened leading up to it. She, my 2 oldest boys and myself were sitting in the family room watching tv. At about 9:15 she said she was tired and was going to bed. 5 minutes later I get a text from her that simply said "bed". So I walked into our room, undressed, got into bed and put my arm around her. Then I moved my hand to her breast and BOOM. Too fast.

The thing is, if I knew that was what did it, then I would change the approach. But in reality I get the same reaction even if I take my time. And besides, she was the one who texted me for god's sake.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well you have your answer then, if you can't accept it. She is like this, she doesn't acknowledge the problem, she isn't going to change.
> 
> So no, it isn't a chemistry problem.


Ah I see your point now.

You're right it's not a chemistry problem.

Wow.

Okay WOM she isn't going to change. She's said as much.

Next move is yours.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I suppose it's different all the time. So, I described last night what happened. But I didn't say what happened leading up to it. She, my 2 oldest boys and myself were sitting in the family room watching tv. At about 9:15 she said she was tired and was going to bed. 5 minutes later I get a text from her that simply said "bed". So I walked into our room, undressed, got into bed and put my arm around her. Then I moved my hand to her breast and BOOM. Too fast.
> 
> The thing is, if I knew that was what did it, then I would change the approach. But in reality I get the same reaction even if I take my time. And besides, she was the one who texted me for god's sake.


Do you know what turns her on? Has she ever shared a fantasy with you? If she has, is she in control in these fantasies. Perhaps she is turned off by not having control in initiating. Perhaps she needs to initiate in order to feel in the mood.

I don't know much about the whole dominate/submissive stuff. But, it sounds like she's done some of that with you. Is she the more dominant one?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

tracyishere said:


> Do you know what turns her on? Has she ever shared a fantasy with you? If she has, is she in control in these fantasies. Perhaps she is turned off by not having control in initiating. Perhaps she needs to initiate in order to feel in the mood.
> 
> I don't know much about the whole dominate/submissive stuff. But, it sounds like she's done some of that with you. Is she the more dominant one?


I tie her up. She'll sometimes say she want's to tie my up, but I'm not into be submissive sexually at all. Receiving a bj and not being able to put my hands on her head is actually a turn off for me. There's some truth in what you're saying and Amplexor too. She has control issues and problems letting go. Even outside the bedroom she orders the entire household around. I'm the only one who pushes back so the kids get most of it.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

If you quit initiating would the sex stop?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

You have the exact.same dynamic as my husband and me. Same history, story, all of it. Weird.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Her behavior is illogical and confusing. Sounds like a certain Hamster taking charge.

Seriously. It sounds like she's wanting something to happen, but something either conciously or unconciously is causing her to throw up roadblocks. Maybe she's wanting you to push through? Maybe it's just her default no kicking in before her concious mind can catch up and that's why she initiates a minute later? 

Maybe try stating your intentions 5 or 10 minutes in advance next time. "go make yourself pretty cuz i'm going to xxxxxx when i get upstairs" type thing. Then EXPECT that initial "no" and give it a few minutes to stew.That might give her enough time to gag the hamster? 

Couldn't hurt to try.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> If you quit initiating would the sex stop?


No, I don't think so.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Asking because obviously another strategy is needed since she's stated she doesn't see a problem.

Glad you are here finding new ways to approach this.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm intrigued by Gettingit's story. I knew when I read it we had similar situations. What I don't know, is how to get my wife to see the light the way she did.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Her behavior is illogical and confusing. Sounds like a certain Hamster taking charge.
> 
> Seriously. It sounds like she's wanting something to happen, but something either conciously or unconciously is causing her to throw up roadblocks. Maybe she's wanting you to push through? Maybe it's just her default no kicking in before her concious mind can catch up and that's why she initiates a minute later?
> 
> ...


I disagree. That solves nothing. It's not ok to accept being rejected all the time.

There are so many maybe's here. You really need to find the core reason for this. And unfortunately none of us know your wife and her thoughts. This is something she needs to discover and communicate with you. She may say she's unaware of it, because she may not even know herself why she is doing it. 

It sounds like she is commited to making changes to improve your relationship though. I'd say, why not find out what's really happening and work on improving that for each other as well.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm intrigued by Gettingit's story. I knew when I read it we had similar situations. What I don't know, is how to get my wife to see the light the way she did.


Easy figure out where the resentment is. Gettingit had resentment against her husband. According to FW your wife is no different.

I don't know your WHOLE story so I can't speak on what happened prior to the 10 sexless years.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

WOM said: "What I don't know, is how to get my wife to see the light the way she did."

You will need to start by working on your love for her and letting go of resentments.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I suppose it's different all the time. So, I described last night what happened. But I didn't say what happened leading up to it. She, my 2 oldest boys and myself were sitting in the family room watching tv. *At about 9:15 she said she was tired and was going to bed. 5 minutes later I get a text from her that simply said "bed". So I walked into our room, undressed, got into bed and put my arm around her.* Then I moved my hand to her breast and BOOM. Too fast.
> 
> The thing is, if I knew that was what did it, then I would change the approach. But in reality I get the same reaction even if I take my time. And besides, she was the one who texted me for god's sake.


She texts when you're in the same house and she wants you to come to bed? That wouldn't get me all hot and bothered. Are you sure her intention is for you to come to bed for sex? 

Can you two break this pattern? Could you kiss her and hug her when she goes to bed and tell her you'll go to bed, too? Could you ask her to kiss you instead of texting you? Or to squeeze your hand and say she'll meet you in the bedroom? Could you cuddle when you're watching tv and then one of you can whisper to the other about meeting in the bedroom?

And then instead of just undressing and getting into bed and going for her breast, could you talk with her first? Maybe hug her and tell her how nice her hair smells or how good she feels in your arms? Then start kissing her before moving on to something else?

Is there any flirting between you during the day or evening? Are you affectionate with each other during the evenings, with some random hugs and kisses and touches?

I don't know. This texting thing to come to bed does not sound at all like YOU initiating. It's her commanding you to come and perform. There's just something cold and unsexy about this whole approach.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I don't know your WHOLE story so I can't speak on what happened prior to the 10 sexless years.


In 1992 I got out of the service and we married 2 weeks later. She was working full time. I went to college. For the first couple months I "only" went to college and she got some grief from her father. So I took a part time job. I think back then she made about 30k and I made 15, plus my GI bill and student loans which paid for school.

Just as I was graduating in 2006 she got laid off. By then we were homeowners, no kids. I had just started full time work, but entry level accountants were broke accountants in those days. Our income was suddenly cut in half. Two months later we found out that she was pregnant with our first. So add it up: less income, more expenses = going into debt on the hopes that my salary would go up quickly (which it did). I switched jobs at the beginning of 1998 because the commute was too long at my first job. She was unhappy about not working and never really enjoyed being a SAHM. All of her friends had jobs. During that time, I was rising through the ranks. Going to fancy client dinners. Office parties where she had to show up in a dress like arm candy.

I suppose when I write it all out, I can see where there were plenty of opportunities to build resentment. In my mind I was providing an awesome life for my small family. Whittling down the debt, moving ahead in my career, working hard to give her and our kid a good life.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

norajane said:


> She texts when you're in the same house and she wants you to come to bed? That wouldn't get me all hot and bothered. Are you sure her intention is for you to come to bed for sex?


Oh yes, she does this often and there's no doubt the intention. But she's not going to mention it with the kids sitting there, because at their age they just can't shut up about it.



norajane said:


> There's just something cold and unsexy about this whole approach.


Your right. She thinks it's bold. But it's just cold.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

You may be surprised what people hold against you. The reason my H said he started to resent me is when we purchased our first home. He said he felt pressured into doing so and even to this day has not forgiven me?!! Something I thought was so exciting and thrilling, an investment that has only increased in value, a place to start our lives together as a newly married couple, a home all to ourselves. NOPE! To him it was a prison. Nothing else mattered.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

tracyishere said:


> You may be surprised what people hold against you. The reason my H said he started to resent me is when we purchased our first home. He said he felt pressured into doing so and even to this day has not forgiven me?!! Something I thought was so exciting and thrilling, an investment that has only increased in value, a place to start our lives together as a newly married couple, a home all to ourselves. NOPE! To him it was a prison. Nothing else mattered.


Back in the day I definitely had resentment about the house. She "had" to be a homeowner so we used my VA loan to buy with nothing down. Then when I graduated college we were trapped because we didn't have enough equity to sell the house, and couldn't afford the negative cash flow from renting it. The reason I had to quit my first job was the long commute. The long commute was because we were locked into our house.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

Well, perhaps the same holds true about something you did for/to/with her. It's worth exploring.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Hmm...I'm conflicted in what advice would be most helpful to offer

Firstly, I'm almost always on the guy's side in these situations


But, in this case, I almost wish you could find a way to let this go, simply because, I 'read' her behavior has very much a _reflexive reaction_...and as such, it sort of loses significant meaning (or should...), because I don't believe there's any conscious or willful desire to irritate or hurt you behind it...like I said, the energy behind this 'reads' as more of the unconscious, automatic, knee-jerk variety

I think where you find *worthwhile significance in her behavior and actions* is in her willingness to change her behavior (and rather radically) when it came time to _'make or break_' the marriage 
(I think what a woman does in that moment, really tells all, if they're willing to let you walk over sex then the marriage, and her feelings for you are simply lost...and this wasn't true for your marriage or your wife)

But why this reaction from her? 

I'm sure it does have something to do with control issues...and also, I think there's inevitably a bit of a predator/prey dynamic in sexual relationships between men and women...and even in the most mutual of encounters women are playing the 'prey' role. 

That's part of why you want a wife you 'feel safe with', what you want is that feeling that 'she's totally open to you'/'totally submitting to you'/' totally vulnerable to you'...

Because the 'prey' willingly offering themselves to (and thereby totally trusting the 'predator')----evokes a very powerful feeling in a man...it's very moving... 

Anyway, I think her initial 'reflex' of balking at your advances, and then following up with advances of her own...are sort of the way she _mentally_ adjusts and mitigates some of the feelings of vulnerability of being the *totally willing and surrendering prey* (as if that'd be giving you too much 'power')

And I do get that that's *exactly the point*. That's why this is bothersome. It's a wall she should work to knock down, as a loving gesture to you.

I just don't know if she will. Or how much work would be necessary to accomplish that. And, based on her agreeableness to sex period, I think you have a substantive demonstration of her love for you. 

I guess the question is: Can you find a way to be satisfied with the current dynamic? I know you wrote already...that you don't think so...

If not, perhaps you need to broach the subject again, using different phrasing (I understood what you meant right away...do you think she really doesn't get it (the 'feeling safe with her' bit...or do you think she's deliberately 'misunderstanding)...it's hard to advise on specific tactics here, because I don't have a good sense of her personality and what might be effective.

Last thing I'll leave you with, just because it's always worth having in the back of one's mind is:



_"The foremost of all illusions is that anything can ever *completely* satisfy anybody. That illusion stands behind all that is unendurable in life and in front of all progress, and it is one of the most difficult things to overcome."_

Good Luck!!


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Working, I'm wanting to say something about boundaries and she is a control freak. 

Even if she denies doing it... the point is, you have told her about it, what you expect, and kudos to you for not caving this time. It's a boundary for you to be "played" with, so I'm guessing. (it would be for me, but I can't speak for you).

If it's not acceptable to you, stick to that. If you feel comfortable initiating, go ahead. Otherwise, she needs to approach YOU in a way that you feel safe. Might take some time. I would be open about what you are doing. Respect. She needs to show some. JMO.


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

I think IndiaInk is right that your W subconsciously doesn't want to feel like prey or to not be in control until she is more aroused. It might have nothing to do with her having any resentments toward you, or her feeling that you have 'contempt'.

Sounds like sex is really good after the first 5 minutes or so. The first 5 minutes are the most awkward part for most couples since often neither is very aroused yet, and might have grown a little distant since the last sexual encounter. You need to experiment more with what you can do during those 5 minutes that you both would like. 

For my H and me, it works best if we start with French kissing. It is awkward because we each want the other to start turning each other on and we want the other person to move faster. My H reacts negatively if I make the first move, he wants to give me some subtle hint like touching my arm and then I should 'make it happen', give him BJ, etc.. Whereas I wish he would grab me, throw me on the bed, but it never happens because he doesn't start out aroused and is slow to warm up. So we compromise on the kissing first which helps both of us warm up and get a bit aroused, then everything comes more naturally and is more mutual.

You need to keep asking you wife how she wants you to initiatiate. If she says 'I dont know', ask her to spend time imagining alternatives and think about how she feels when you initiate in different ways, and tell her you will keep asking her.

What does she do when she doesn't like something, does she actually say out loud, 'You are moving too fast'? Tell her for a few weeks that she isn't to talk, and she can just guide your hand, placement and speed instead.

If she says something to criticize, I do think you should stop and calmly say you'll try again another night, and dont cave on that.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

What Amp said. I feel a little differently about your situation. I don't see any hostility or evil in your wife's game. I don't think it is productive to view it as such. It limits your options. There are more options if you understand and decode her behavior.

I am confident that if you do, you will be as successful overcoming this as you were with the 10 yr nadir. If you get angry and affronted, nothing ail change. 

Why dosen't she do a simple thing like show you that she desires you? I am not sure but it probably has nothing to do with how much she loves and desires you or the house or the job. Those things may have more importance to you, but it may not be so impostant to her now. It is more likely the way she views sex. 

She may feel guilty for having sexual desire and acting on it. Hence the resistance game. Have you read any of MEM's post about temperature in relationships? 

I think she may be more proactive if you cool down and not seem anxious. If she says no, your good. If she is resistant, dont take it the wrong way. Make a joke, stay light hearted. 

Tease her, joke and dare her. What ever works with your personality and your wife, try it. If she resist, be assured that thats her game she will follow you if you stay cool. 

Consider reading MEM's theory on temperature and adapt it to your relationship and see if it works. You really have more control than you think, you just don't see it.


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I also believe to my soul she knows she's doing this and if it's reflexive then why doesn't she IMMEDIATELY apologize for doing it AGAIN when he brings it up?
> 
> She doesn't because she doesn't want to. It sounds passive aggressive to me. Nobody could be this unaware or does she truly not care???


It doesn't mean she doesn't care but many people seem to not be able to ever say they are sorry (unless they do something like bump into you) and they can't admit they are in the wrong or admit their weaknessnes. She sounds like that type. Bad habits are hard to break. I think if WOM doesn't cave in and says 'let's wait till another night' when she acts like this, she will eventually break the habit of saying negative things to spoil the mood. Plus she will end up respecting him more in the long run, even if she's pissed at the moment when he won't cave. It is sort of a [email protected] test, probably subconscious, plus she has a negative reaction to feeling not in control.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

" The first 5 minutes are the most awkward part for most couples since often neither is very aroused yet, "

I disagree. The first 5 minutes are the MOST arousing and should be. That is why the rejection is so harmful, it stifles your arousal instantly.

OP, there is so much speculation here about your wife. Is she controlling? is she resentful? is she oblivious? Is she spiteful? Is she asexual? Is she in to you?

You know your wife the best. Take what advice suits you and go with it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> What you're reading isn't hate. It's frustration. And yes, years of resentment.


Time to graduate to indifference 

It is far less damaging to the soul, and provides considerable time to devote to other activities like online gaming...


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Kari said:


> It doesn't mean she doesn't care but many people seem to not be able to ever say they are sorry (unless they do something like bump into you) and they can't admit they are in the wrong or admit their weaknessnes. She sounds like that type. Bad habits are hard to break. I think if WOM doesn't cave in and says 'let's wait till another night' when she acts like this, she will eventually break the habit of saying negative things to spoil the mood. Plus she will end up respecting him more in the long run, even if she's pissed at the moment when he won't cave. It is sort of a [email protected] test, probably subconscious, plus she has a negative reaction to feeling not in control.


Agree.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

treyvion said:


> If someones been cheated out of 10 years of sex, out of physical affirmations, don't you think they would have alot of internal rage built up? Being in a sexless/affectionless situation is worse than being alone.


Rage achieves little at the end unless you're a bull in a china shop. How did the poet say it?

"Don't get mad, get even"...


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Inability to trust, or issues with trust are almost always linked with controlling personality types. I don't know enough of your story to say anymore than that. 

It's like a big brick wall. As long as one is in control, they won't get hurt. I was this way, my own version. A man touching me made me flinch. It had to be my idea, but I was getting over some issues with past trauma. I have a preference to initiate. But I'm much more open to allowing it. If I trust the person. 

Just my own warped story. I like what Amp said too.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

john117 said:


> Rage achieves little at the end unless you're a bull in a china shop. How did the poet say it?
> 
> "Don't get mad, get even"...


That wasn't a poet, that was Beelzebub


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

You know WOM, the parallels here are very interesting to me. 

I read all this and can almost see the resentments from both of you. I have heard your side and don't blame you for feeling resentful at all. I can also see how you wife might feel resentment because adult life sure came at you guys pretty fast and furious. Almost like the Gods heard you stamp your foot and declare yourself a big boy, so they threw a load a sh!t at you to see how ell you could catch.

Your wife's behavior is absolutely all about control and in the end is doesn't matter WHY. It's control.

Your behavior is self protective and you withdraw in anger once that instinct is aroused. Again, it doesn't matter why.

If there is one thing I KNOW to be true, why we do something only matters to ourselves as we seek better behavior and learn to forgive our past mistakes.

I vote for Amp's method. But I suggest you do some soul cleansing first and check any an all resentments at the door. During that 60 day your ass is mine period, you have to be able to take anything she throws at you so that she can see once and for all, her attitude isn't going to shut you down and turn you away. When you say it's your way, you mean it, no matter how *****y she gets.

Lastly, if she's not willing to put this kind of work into the marriage, to put her trust into you to take care of her, then you will never be fully content and it's time to plan an exit strategy.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Non initiation could be not because of rejection but because you subconsciously (or consciously ) refuse to play along. After a year or two's worth of .0833 sex (1/12 or once a month) I decided that this really has no point to it. After the requisite month came and left and she started feeling guilty she started initiating and I promptly rejected her advances. This went on for a while and eventually I succumbed to the call of the wild. While it was the best I remember in recent years it felt extremely hollow. Repeated the experiment and it was just as good physically but felt just as bad. Meaningless would be a better word. So I gave up altogether working instead on my MMOGL or Married Man Online Gaming Life (coming to a publisher near you soon )

If you have been living with someone for a long time they ought to know the impact of their actions pretty well. We ain't talking teenager follies here. If she's hell bent to criticize everything maybe she can become a movie critic or food critic or something. Likewise if .0833 rocks her boat find someone in the merchant marine who's at sea for weeks at a time and enjoy... 

This is not resentment talking, just practical consideration. It's like watering a lawn that has been dormant for a month, exactly once. Meaningless.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> No, I really can't. As I said, I want a marriage where I feel safe that if I initiate my wife will be receptive to me. Funny when I told her this she said "All I can say is OMG what do you think I am going to do?" Like she thought I meant physically unsafe or something. It's like the whole conversation just went right over her head.


Do you feel safe in sharing your thoughts and plans with your wife in other areas of your relationship? Is your wife your confidant for most nonsexual matters?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Do you feel safe in sharing your thoughts and plans with your wife in other areas of your relationship? Is your wife your confidant for most nonsexual matters?


I'd say yes.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

WOM if you feel safe in other areas of your relationship, is it possible that her resistance game is throwing you off?

If you reframed your interpretation of her reluctant appearing stance, you have a woman who loves and cares about you with whom you need to be sexually assertive. 

There are other areas of your relationship where you need to push a bit to get each other going. Sex is different because it is so emotionally ladened. But in many ways, the way we behave is governed by our experience.

I'll use myself as an example. I don't refuse my husband but i rarely initiate. When I do, it is subtle. I love him and desire him but I was indoctrinated by Catholic nuns that girls who desired sex were sinful and impure. Those attitudes still has a powerful hold on me. Maybe your wife is the same way? 

If so, it may be useless to tie your feelings of safety and acceptance on her behavior around sex. Her behavior may be influenced dysfunctional information or experiences early in her life. 

If that is the case then her sexual behavior is an unreliable barometer to measure her trustworthiness. I think you can trust her if you accept that she needs to be lead by you. That's the way she is and yiu can trust that she needs you to do something she cant do herself. 

Look at it this way, if you were not willing to deal with her resistance, she would not enjoy sex. She obviously enjoys it but guilt may prevent her from taking a strait path. She needs you to navigate around her inhibitions.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Notice something WOM. You don't seem to fight back when you are attacked. I feel there were some posts that were less than helpful even way off the mark. 

There was no contempt in what you said about your wife in this or any other posts that i have seen. . Many of your post are very loving towards your wife. This one thread cannot be taken out of context. 

Taken together, I see your love and appreciation for your wife. Your fathers day post was full of love but also understandable anger, frustration and misunderstanding. 

This thread does not present the whole picture, it can't. Anyway I hope you will keep posting. There have been a few helpful post. I am sure there will be more if you keep the tread active.

Try them out and let us know how you do.

Do you think it would help to communicate what you feel to these posters? You may back down too soon in an exchange. 

Your description about your wife's misunderstanding of your safe comment. It is funny in a way. Or it would have been if you countered with making her understand what you meant. 

She was not being obstinate I think. She was thinking literally. My husband is like that. I have to be careful to make sure he gets my meaning. It just a communication style. Sometimes it is funny.

You can practice something useful on this site, its safe. If someone says something that is unfair or strait up wrong, go back at them. Make them understand. 

You will see that if you assert your point of view in a nice way, you will get used to correcting errors in interpretations.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Dang Catherine, that was really excellent!


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Ok, here's a brief history: Married 21 years. We started dating when I was 19, she was 20. Now I'm 42 and she's 43. Had our #2 kid in 2000 and began a 10 year sexless (about 1x a month) period with some brief periods of increased frequency. By the end of 2011 I had had it and was ready to walk. In Feb 2012 I read MMSLP, made some changes and our frequency went through the roof (relatively speaking). By December of 2012 we had slowed down to a routine of 1-2 times per week.
> 
> The problems started resurfacing in February I guess. The thing is, she knows I keep track and if we go more than a week I complain so she makes sure that doesn't happen. Actually she'll probably do it anytime I ask, and once we get started it's pretty good. About the only thing she doesn't do much of is kissing.
> 
> ...


WOM...Just curious, am I right in saying that as long as she is the one initiating you don't get any complaints...too fast, too slow, not like that, ect.? Not every woman is a beta, some of us are alpha's by nature and some have lived through abuse thst has made vulnerability and control hard to surrender. I recognize a lot of what your posting as some of the struggles big guy and I went through. To this day..31 yrs later l am still the initiater 90 percent of the time. For me it is a control issue....that is why its fine as long as I initiate. By the way I use to do the complaining thing too....it took a long time to figure out it was a blocking mechanism to get back control. My guess is there is a reason why she prefers to initiate....this is not a traditional trait in a female to be the dominate one. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but usually something drives the behavior. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I've seen a lot of contempt in WOM's posts, and he didn't even deny that.

I would hope that you don't disregard how much contempt and resentment is going to hold you back WOM.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Dang Catherine, that was really excellent!


It really was. Those were some of the same thoughts swirling around in my head, but being a man I lack the ability to translate thoughts into words. Thanks Catherine!


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I've seen a lot of contempt in WOM's posts, and he didn't even deny that.
> 
> I would hope that you don't disregard how much contempt and resentment is going to hold you back WOM.


Actually I believe you've prejudged me so I put quite a bit less weight in your posts. I feel a lot of contempt from you toward me.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

mineforever said:


> WOM...Just curious, am I right in saying that as long as she is the one initiating you don't get any complaints...too fast, too slow, not like that, ect.? Not every woman is a beta, some of us are alpha's by nature and some have lived through abuse thst has made vulnerability and control hard to surrender. I recognize a lot of what your posting as some of the struggles big guy and I went through. To this day..31 yrs later l am still the initiater 90 percent of the time. For me it is a control issue....that is why its fine as long as I initiate. By the way I use to do the complaining thing too....it took a long time to figure out it was a blocking mechanism to get back control. My guess is there is a reason why she prefers to initiate....this is not a traditional trait in a female to be the dominate one. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but usually something drives the behavior.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you can view it as "sexual control" as something you can either "grant" or "not grant". It's something you can choose to give.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

mineforever said:


> WOM...Just curious, am I right in saying that as long as she is the one initiating you don't get any complaints...too fast, too slow, not like that, ect.? Not every woman is a beta, some of us are alpha's by nature and some have lived through abuse thst has made vulnerability and control hard to surrender. I recognize a lot of what your posting as some of the struggles big guy and I went through. To this day..31 yrs later l am still the initiater 90 percent of the time. For me it is a control issue....that is why its fine as long as I initiate. By the way I use to do the complaining thing too....it took a long time to figure out it was a blocking mechanism to get back control. My guess is there is a reason why she prefers to initiate....this is not a traditional trait in a female to be the dominate one. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but usually something drives the behavior.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, I personally have this same trait. I don't know WOM's wife... so I was reluctant to mention it. But it seemed very familiar to me. I'm glad you mentioned it. I'm one of the normal deviants, but I understand why. It's who I am.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ok WOM...if I am wrong and have pre-judged you, then I am sorry. I hope the best for you.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

deejov said:


> Yeah, I personally have this same trait. I don't know WOM's wife... so I was reluctant to mention it. But it seemed very familiar to me. I'm glad you mentioned it. I'm one of the normal deviants, but I understand why. It's who I am.


Yeah I know what you mean...I recognized the descrpition all to well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

treyvion said:


> If you can view it as "sexual control" as something you can either "grant" or "not grant". It's something you can choose to give.


Its not just "sexual control", its "control" and the ability to be vulnerable and trust. I am just saying as have a couple others look deeper...I have a feeling there might be a reason she needs/wants to be the initiater.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Lots to think about there. There are areas where she definitely lacks control. I make almost all the money. She never envisioned herself growing up to be dependent on a man. I don't even come close to restricting money but when she started working again she wanted her pay to go into her own account. The first 6 years of our relationship she made more than me. Also her dad was an alcoholic. Stopped drinking when she was 15.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Hello WOM, I think that she is a dominant personality, you stated ealier that she wanted to tie you up in bed but you didn't like that. I think that if you surrender some control in the bedroom that eventually she won't be so critical and she would participate more.

My hubby is sort of like you, he wants me to be submissive in bed, and he even wanted to start spanking me. I don't like the idea of him spanking me, I just don't. But I would love to spank him and I asked him, he turned it down. We are 2 dominant personalities in the same house. That maybe where you and your wife are.

I noted from your other posts that you want your wife to adore you, put you up on a pedestal and submit to you. She must know this, which is why she wants to behave in a way that keeps you off balance and guessing so she will be in control. This behavior makes you feel unsafe, it is no wrong or evil behavior.

I just wanted to give my 2 cents and continue to read this thread for some more insight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

I was thinking about this thread all night!! Anyway, I realized my H and are very similiar yet completely opposite. If I initiate he often rejects me with some excuse, and a few hours later it'll be him initiating. It makes me wonder if by initiating I turn him off. Perhaps that's why there was always allot of teasing, he likes to have a sexual influence over me. But, if I didn't initiate I would probably get allot less intimacy. He doesn't do it on his own without some previous failed attempt by me. 

Perhaps your wife is similiar in that she enjoys seeing you get all hot and bothered and then frustrated because of her influence over you. A way to test the desire you have for her? She knows she can control the on/off switch for your arousal and preys on it. I think it's a form of mind games. Not cool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

tracyishere said:


> I was thinking about this thread all night!! Anyway, I realized my H and are very similiar yet completely opposite. If I initiate he often rejects me with some excuse, and a few hours later it'll be him initiating. It makes me wonder if by initiating I turn him off. Perhaps that's why there was always allot of teasing, he likes to have a sexual influence over me. But, if I didn't initiate I would probably get allot less intimacy. He doesn't do it on his own without some previous failed attempt by me.
> 
> Perhaps your wife is similiar in that she enjoys seeing you get all hot and bothered and then frustrated because of her influence over you. A way to test the desire you have for her? She knows she can control the on/off switch for your arousal and preys on it. I think it's a form of mind games. Not cool.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is control. If she knew that it can bleed down his desire and sexual intensity over time, maybe it's not something she would want to do with the person she intends on having sex with. 

She could do it to a **** though and have sex with someone else.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Amplexor said I was "well trained". Which, for a guy, you know that sticks in your head and simmers a bit. This morning I was thinking of her interactions with our dog. If the dog approaches her wanting a treat she won't give it. She'll wait a bit until he's no longer asking (or begging or whatever, but seriously I don't think I'm begging). Then she'll give it to him.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Amplexor said I was "well trained". Which, for a guy, you know that sticks in your head and simmers a bit. This morning I was thinking of her interactions with our dog. If the dog approaches her wanting a treat she won't give it. She'll wait a bit until he's no longer asking (or begging or whatever, but seriously I don't think I'm begging). Then she'll give it to him.


How many men want to believe theyve been subdued or "trained" by their women?

And will this increase or decrease or no change in sexual desireability?


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Kari said:


> You need to keep asking you wife how she wants you to initiate. If she says 'I don't know', ask her to spend time imagining alternatives and think about how she feels when you initiate in different ways, and tell her you will keep asking her.
> 
> What does she do when she doesn't like something, does she actually say out loud, 'You are moving too fast'? Tell her for a few weeks that she isn't to talk, and she can just guide your hand, placement and speed instead.
> 
> If she says something to criticize, I do think you should stop and calmly say you'll try again another night, and don't cave on that.


Friends and family me tell me all the time, " ...but I was just telling the truth, how can that be a bad thing?". I respond to them, there is what you say and how you say it. Let me give you an example: 

Sometimes I move too fast down south and my wife will gently grab my hand, re-position it where she wants it and whisper, "Baby, start here". If she called to me "Bed!" or "Too Fast", I am certain I would feel as you felt.

I did have to have a "When you say this ..., I feel this ..." conversation and I expect those conversations will continue on both sides, hers and mine. Kindest Regards-


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Amplexor said I was "well trained". Which, for a guy, you know that sticks in your head and simmers a bit. This morning I was thinking of her interactions with our dog. If the dog approaches her wanting a treat she won't give it. She'll wait a bit until he's no longer asking (or begging or whatever, but seriously I don't think I'm begging). Then she'll give it to him.


Sad. I think I've just gotten used to the fact that I may not have the choice on whether or not sex is on the table when I want it to be. Its either his way or no way. But, at least I'm getting some 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Oh I get it whenever I want. As long as I go through the ritual. I got it last night. We were cuddling in bed and she moved my hand where she wanted it. So she initiated but placed my hand so it would look like I initiated. From 10,000' anyway.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Needing control isn't usually about wanting to control the other person as much as it is about protecting yourself from being hurt. It is about controling your enviornment....protecting yourself from pain. The complaining and pushing away is deflection or blocking.....causes you to back away and let her take control. You said her father was an alchoholic....was he an abusive drunk?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Looked up contempt. The formal definition goes like this: 

Contempt - the object of contempt is regarded negatively for not living up to a set of interpersonal standards that are considered important to the person feeling contempt. 

The standards are based on comparison to other persons. There is distancing from the object of contempt who is considered beneath consideration. 

Not sure what contempt is exactly but I know it when I see it. The classic feature is the eye role. You don't have to see the eye role, it can be transmitted in the written word, or voice. The person exhibiting contempt views themselves as superior to the contemptible. 

There is a classic narcissistic contemptuous poster on this site. He seems to have been badly psychologically damaged by an overly close relationship with his mother and abandoned by his father.

Don't think I have ever read a more pathologically hateful person - he hates woman. This is not situational and temporary like the average poster who has been hurt. 

If you really want to know contempt read his post. They drip with contempt, fear, scorn and loathing. I can't say his name but, he is an impostor who F's around on his wife. 

Maybe I am blind but I don't see contempt here. 

Some your posts on other threads are angry and aggressive but given the circumstances, I am not surprised. However, when I post a disagreement you rarely post back to me to take issue. 

I wait but you don't do it, Please, I invite you to respond so you can practice effective communication in the face of opposition. 

It would be good for both of us. You know that I don't hate you, we are just having a discussion. You can practice with me and develop skills for you relationship. Deal???

I appreciate that it is important to ID contempt because it is one of the reliable predictors of marriage desolation. So it would be important for you to know if it is there or not. 

Did anyone read Malcolm Gladwell's book "Blink"? There is a chapter on contempt. 

John117 is a research psychologist, maybe he can explain the difference between contempt and the primary adaptive feelings of anger and frustration.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Oh I get it whenever I want. As long as I go through the ritual. I got it last night. We were cuddling in bed and she moved my hand where she wanted it. So she initiated but placed my hand so it would look like I initiated. From 10,000' anyway.


Did you feel ok about this? What would you like to see from your wife? 

If you have concrete idea's of what you want from your wife on a consistent basis, you can work towards that. You can treat it like a complex project and grow it sequentially. Men like that, right?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

BTW this is a great thread WOM. Thanks for trusting us.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Sorry I'm not ignoring you. Quite the opposite. I'll respond soon. I'm at the IRS today lol.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Oh I get it whenever I want. As long as I go through the ritual. I got it last night. We were cuddling in bed and she moved my hand where she wanted it. So she initiated but placed my hand so it would look like I initiated. From 10,000' anyway.


I usually do too, just not until much later on his terms. It has improved allot though since I started "hinting" my desire either through texts, pics or maybe a sensual look rather than actively initiating. Rarely ever do I physically try to initiate as this is when he out right rejects me most of the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

tracyishere said:


> I usually do too, just not until much later on his terms. It has improved allot though since I started "hinting" my desire either through texts, pics or maybe a sensual look rather than actively initiating. Rarely ever do I physically try to initiate as this is when he out right rejects me most of the time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It must not feel good to feel like a man ( your spouse ) specifically is rejecting you sexually.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

treyvion said:


> It must not feel good to feel like a man ( your spouse ) specifically is rejecting you sexually.


Yeah, that's generally bad for either gender.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

treyvion said:


> It must not feel good to feel like a man ( your spouse ) specifically is rejecting you sexually.


LOL! I feel all women

I have a very high drive, this could just be a coping method for my H to tolerate all my advances. Poor guy, just can't keep 'up'!!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Well DC you are right about one thing, leaving can never be off the table as the very final resort and under the most trying of circumstances. 

The rest might not get the desired effect. 

Lets see, if my Mr said that, I'd probably go out for a walk so I don't kill him. But keep trying. You are on the right track, confidence always wins the day. Just soften your approach a bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm intrigued by Gettingit's story. I knew when I read it we had similar situations. What I don't know, is how to get my wife to see the light the way she did.


I came to see the light on my own terms, and I think that was important to where we are now. 

We did go through a period in our mostly sexless ten years in which the frequency went up to 1-2 times a week instead of 1-2 times a month. I had asked my h to go to marriage counseling with me, but he wouldn't, so I went alone. My therapist suggested the fake it til you make it tack, so that's what I attempted. But the resulting dynamic was awkward, and it didn't last. I hadn't dealt with my underlying resentments, but I wanted my husband's unhappiness to just go away, and I figured this was what I had to do. I'm not saying that I didn't enjoy the sex once we got rolling . . . it was the getting rolling that was often the issue. 

I'm wondering if this is where you are stuck with your wife. Sexual frequency went up in your marriage because you demanded it, not because she discovered a way to want it more. So, the question of who has to START the dance becomes the power struggle, not whether you're going to dance.

Interestingly, if my husband and I fall off our high frequency schedule and start to feel cranky, the power struggle starts up all over again. I think we are getting much, much better about recognizing it, but it still sucks.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Plenty of times I've done what your wife does--shut down my husband's initiation of sex (or even my own) when he makes a wrong move. But I can tell you that I've NEVER done it when I had strong desire. It would happen when I didn't have desire but was hoping that I'd get in the mood if only he'd start. It would happen when I was hoping he'd start, but he didn't, so I would do it resentfully, then be so totally fixated on his passivity that I'd be turned off as soon as he touched me "wrong." If I could just hold on long enough through the initiation and the first ten minutes, we'd be golden. But that was always a crap shoot. 

You see I knew we needed to have sex. I wanted to want to have sex. But I just so rarely straight-up wanted it, so initiating was hard. And of course he was so worn down by rejection, just like you are, that he only initiated if he thought the stars were aligned. And that made me even more resentful given that any desire that was to be found on my part (other than the week I was ovulating) was responsive. I NEEDED him to initiate. I could do it, but the chances of it actually winding up in a sex session weren't great. 

Ugh, I get tense just writing about it. The sexual reconciliation that we had in the spring has been great, but there are things I'm still discovering about our old dynamic and out new that we need to hash out. It seems that every set back we have ends in a battle of wills over who will initiate first afterwards. Most we've gone since April without sex is a week or so before we "reset." We're working on getting better at that.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Jung_admirer said:


> So , I had an appt with my therapist yesterday and talked about this very thing. It's very hard to initiate sex, apologize or open up emotionally to someone you don't trust. Initiating sex is making yourself vulnerable, and you simply won't do this with someone you do not trust. My therapist called this relationship status, "In reconciliation, but not yet safe for conflict". You have to work through the resentments you have been keeping from one another and begin to rebuild trust by making deposits in the love bank. I am planning to slowly work through the HNHN emotional needs inventory and the love buster dialogs. It'll take time, be patient with one another and let her know when she triggers you. Kindest Regards-


I agree with this advice, and I recognize the "in reconciliation" situation. It takes time, as my husband keeps reminding me when I get frustrated. You do have to re-build trust, gain the skills needed to take an honest look at your own resentments, and, perhaps most important, continue to show love by trying hard to understand the needs of your spouse, even when you don't have the same needs or even understand them. 

Intense, honest self-reflection, hands down, has been the most important skill in the process for me. I am still not always emotionally honest with my husband (yet), but I force myself to face what is really going on in my own head. I am very, very uncomfortable when I cannot be forthcoming with my husband about my feelings, and that is a step in the right direction for me. As you come to trust your spouse, it becomes easier to open up.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Norajane,
Sex is a BIG point of tension between them. So the 'one' word text of 'bed' either means:
- lets connect or
- that she is being deliberately ambiguous in a sadistic way

In an HD/LD marriage, with kids in the room as she headed out the text 'bed' means: I didn't want the kids to know that I wanted you to come have sex with me so I am sending you a text. 




norajane said:


> She texts when you're in the same house and she wants you to come to bed? That wouldn't get me all hot and bothered. Are you sure her intention is for you to come to bed for sex?
> 
> Can you two break this pattern? Could you kiss her and hug her when she goes to bed and tell her you'll go to bed, too? Could you ask her to kiss you instead of texting you? Or to squeeze your hand and say she'll meet you in the bedroom? Could you cuddle when you're watching tv and then one of you can whisper to the other about meeting in the bedroom?
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Getting,
The post is incredibly helpful. It shows a high level of self awareness. 





QUOTE=GettingIt;4255810]Plenty of times I've done what your wife does--shut down my husband's initiation of sex (or even my own) when he makes a wrong move. But I can tell you that I've NEVER done it when I had strong desire. It would happen when I didn't have desire but was hoping that I'd get in the mood if only he'd start. It would happen when I was hoping he'd start, but he didn't, so I would do it resentfully, then be so totally fixated on his passivity that I'd be turned off as soon as he touched me "wrong." If I could just hold on long enough through the initiation and the first ten minutes, we'd be golden. But that was always a crap shoot. 

You see I knew we needed to have sex. I wanted to want to have sex. But I just so rarely straight-up wanted it, so initiating was hard. And of course he was so worn down by rejection, just like you are, that he only initiated if he thought the stars were aligned. And that made me even more resentful given that any desire that was to be found on my part (other than the week I was ovulating) was responsive. I NEEDED him to initiate. I could do it, but the chances of it actually winding up in a sex session weren't great. 

Ugh, I get tense just writing about it. The sexual reconciliation that we had in the spring has been great, but there are things I'm still discovering about our old dynamic and out new that we need to hash out. It seems that every set back we have ends in a battle of wills over who will initiate first afterwards. Most we've gone since April without sex is a week or so before we "reset." We're working on getting better at that.[/QUOTE]


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> WOM if you feel safe in other areas of your relationship, is it possible that her resistance game is throwing you off?
> 
> If you reframed your interpretation of her reluctant appearing stance, you have a woman who loves and cares about you with whom you need to be sexually assertive.
> 
> ...


I'm sure she has some inhibitions. Last night I "dipped a toe into the water" of dirty talking. I hovered just outside for a while and asked (whispered) if she wanted it. At first she said nothing. So I asked again. She finally just said yes. So I said "beg for it". Which resulted in a frustrated sigh and admonition not to do that and that I was going to make her start laughing. So, fail. 

Anyway, pushing and being assertive worked for some time last year. But then this weird pattern started. She thinks it has to do with peri menopause hormone levels. I feel like I just need to find the magic combination to make it work. Like I said, it's pretty good once we're past the first couple minutes. The times it's not good is just when my own mind is messed up from the start of it and I can't let it go. Sometimes that will make me lose it if you know what I mean.


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## soulsearch (Aug 2, 2013)

*Re: Re: Chemistry problems?*



WorkingOnMe said:


> Sometimes that will make me lose it if you know what I mean.


the wife and I went through a period of this. only time I could stay hard was if there was direct touching or insertion. kissing, making out, I would go absolutely limp. it scared her enough that she really tried to keep my needs met for about 3 months, things recovered, then they fell off worse than before. we are averaging once every 10 days or so now, but I'm so done with the fight that I've given up trying.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> You see I knew we needed to have sex. I wanted to want to have sex. But I just so rarely straight-up wanted it, so initiating was hard. And of course he was so worn down by rejection, just like you are, that he only initiated if he thought the stars were aligned. And that made me even more resentful given that any desire that was to be found on my part (other than the week I was ovulating) was responsive. I NEEDED him to initiate. I could do it, but the chances of it actually winding up in a sex session weren't great.


This comes pretty close to describing us. I'm very reluctant to initiate. She does it, like you say, because she knows we need it. One thing I learned after our sexless period was while I thought she was the one holding back, she thought I was the one not interested. Because I had stopped trying and we simply never started. 

I guess I never really learned much about initiating. When I was a teenager I had a lot of partners. But I was always the pursued. I can't remember ever asking a girl out. It all just happened pretty naturally and easily. I did ask my now wife out first, but only because a mutual friend said to do it. Her exact words were 'you should ask J out....she won't say no'.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Norajane,
> Sex is a BIG point of tension between them. So the 'one' word text of 'bed' either means:
> - lets connect or
> - that she is being deliberately ambiguous in a sadistic way
> ...


I should have been more clear. There's no doubt that its the first one. It's shorthand. She used to send longer texts like 'I'm in bed waiting for you lover'. And I would send texts too. Then one time I sent a text while our 10 year old was playing a game on her phone and he read it. Out loud. In the car with his 2 brothers and my oldest sons girlfriend. She was, well, mortified. So now she's a little gun shy with the texting.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Did you feel ok about this? What would you like to see from your wife?
> 
> If you have concrete idea's of what you want from your wife on a consistent basis, you can work towards that. You can treat it like a complex project and grow it sequentially. Men like that, right?


I'm ok with this. It's just that it was still her initiating. I don't have a problem with her initiating. But I'd like to feel like I can successfully do it too. If she pulled that same move 3/4 times a week like she did all last summer and fall I'd probably not even notice that I never initiate. But when she slowed to only doing it 1/2 times a week I started initiating myself and found that it wasn't working.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Plenty of times I've done what your wife does--shut down my husband's initiation of sex (or even my own) when he makes a wrong move. But I can tell you that I've NEVER done it when I had strong desire. It would happen when I didn't have desire but was hoping that I'd get in the mood if only he'd start. It would happen when I was hoping he'd start, but he didn't, so I would do it resentfully, then be so totally fixated on his passivity that I'd be turned off as soon as he touched me "wrong." If I could just hold on long enough through the initiation and the first ten minutes, we'd be golden. But that was always a crap shoot.


My wife was the same way before. The part that drove me crazy was the part about how what worked before suddenly doesn't. I'd do the same thing that used to get her really worked up and it did nothing. She'd tell me "don't do it that way" or "too fast" away from the middle of her cycle. Then 1-1/2 weeks later it's "hurry up" or ask for what she was telling me not to do earlier.

Like you, it often felt like she was just waiting for me to make some "mistake" that got to be her excuse for ending it. 

Now I think I'm pretty much over any resentment... but honestly I think it is about 15 months since the last time I was turned down and that's the bulk of why. I also am initiating about 40% of the time right now.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm sure she has some inhibitions. Last night I "dipped a toe into the water" of dirty talking. I hovered just outside for a while and asked (whispered) if she wanted it. At first she said nothing. So I asked again. She finally just said yes. So I said "beg for it". Which resulted in a frustrated sigh and admonition not to do that and that I was going to make her start laughing. So, fail.


That's one place my wife has a hard time. Once in a while I'd love for her to cuss through sex like a sailor. Definitely a big turn on for me. It does get her worked up when I do, and one time she let herself and really turned her on. 

Still a "good girl" hang up she has.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Working,
Your wife is trying. I would call what she is doing: WorkingOnUs

So let me try to break it down for you:
She is a normal woman going through peri, which means she is 'cold starting' the engine. You and I - we won't understand a cold start until we are maybe 70. 

Because of that: 
She 'may' be saying (too fast, too slow, too hard, too soft) because she needs confirmation at the very start that you are doing it 'with her', not 'to' her. The cynics might say she is being 'controlling' or punishing you for insisting on some level of sex. I wonder if instead:

She 'may' be saying it because sometimes she really 'does' want it faster, slower, etc. And it momentarily feels 'icky' for her when you go too fast, painful when too hard, ticklish when too soft. 

I don't know why too 'slow' would be bad unless she is tired. 

Is she cruel about it? I get that your decade in the desert was bad and has left a residual sensitivity. Still, there is a world of difference between:
- a soft voiced request for what she wants and
- a sharp complaint 

I have often been told in a very kind tone: my nipples are sensitive tonight (that means she wants either a very light touch or no touch)

I have never gotten the irritated tone and: that is too rough

Do you think your W is angry or tense when she does this to you? Do you think her intention is to hurt you? 

What would happen if you simply responded with a sincere: 
- Thank you for telling me (a short pause) and then
- Do you need me to stop for a minute? 

If she responds badly to that - you could be blunt:
- I want the honest feedback on pace and stuff 
- And I am ok if you need a moment and then want to set the pace

But I want a brutally honest answer here. Do you NEED me to feel some pain when we start? Because it is starting to seem like you usually say something in a hurtful way right at the beginning. 

And then tell her what you want. Which is for her to say what she WANTS in a nice way. Even a single word: harder, softer, faster, slower. She did pretty good with 'bed'. 

------
My wife used to like a certain type of 'talk'. She not only 'told' me that, but using it near to 'rapture' seemed to trigger and intensify her O. About a year ago, just after connecting, she said: 'I don't like it when you talk like that'. 

During what was a few seconds of dead silence: 
I felt a surge of confusion, then anxiety. Then I wondered - when the heck did you stop liking 'that'? How long have you waited to tell me? 

------
Then I spoke softly: Thank you for telling me 
------







WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm sure she has some inhibitions. Last night I "dipped a toe into the water" of dirty talking. I hovered just outside for a while and asked (whispered) if she wanted it. At first she said nothing. So I asked again. She finally just said yes. So I said "beg for it". Which resulted in a frustrated sigh and admonition not to do that and that I was going to make her start laughing. So, fail.
> 
> Anyway, pushing and being assertive worked for some time last year. But then this weird pattern started. She thinks it has to do with peri menopause hormone levels. I feel like I just need to find the magic combination to make it work. Like I said, it's pretty good once we're past the first couple minutes. The times it's not good is just when my own mind is messed up from the start of it and I can't let it go. Sometimes that will make me lose it if you know what I mean.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm ok with this. It's just that it was still her initiating. I don't have a problem with her initiating. But I'd like to feel like I can successfully do it too. If she pulled that same move 3/4 times a week like she did all last summer and fall I'd probably not even notice that I never initiate. But when she slowed to only doing it 1/2 times a week I started initiating myself and found that it wasn't working.


I gotta say this post kinda scares the crap out of me. I soooo easily could see my wife backsliding into this.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> One thing I learned after our sexless period was while I thought she was the one holding back, she thought I was the one not interested. Because I had stopped trying and we simply never started.


This "stand off" situation sounds very familiar. Instead of talking to one another, we each just assume it's the other person holding back and decide not to initiate and risk rejection, or risk having to start doing the emotional work needed to be able to reconnect. 

But here's the full disclosure: At least I'd SAY that I was holding back because I was getting a bad vibe from him. Often I was looking for any excuse not to take responsibility for my 1) not having desire and feeling discouraged that any amount of effort would get it kindled or 2) feeling resentful that he wasn't initiating. 

Mostly reason #2, I'd say. If he had reached for me, and persisted, I would have melted. I felt pretty unwanted during those years. Yes, I might have resisted at first, but almost even worse than his not initiating in the first place was his giving up so easily. 

Yes, I KNOW I really can't expect a man to face constant rejection. But it's just like MEM suggested--I needed to hurt him a little first, I think, to establish that I had some say in a game in which I felt powerless because of my lack of sexual desire. 



WorkingOnMe said:


> I guess I never really learned much about initiating. When I was a teenager I had a lot of partners. But I was always the pursued. I can't remember ever asking a girl out. It all just happened pretty naturally and easily. I did ask my now wife out first, but only because a mutual friend said to do it. Her exact words were 'you should ask J out....she won't say no'.


If your wife is anything like me, she _needs_ you to initiate more, and she _needs_ you to persist and push through the initial roadblocks she throws up. When my husband would give up so easily, I felt like I wasn't worth it to him. 

I'm coming to trust him a lot more, and I'm getting much, much better at making him feel that I want him. It's a give and take--one of you can't fix the dynamic on your own. One person does the work that inches you both forward enough so that the other person can do their work. If you are in a place where you can do the work of constant, persistent initiation, even if it's not comfortable for you, then do it. It might get her to the place where she can do work on herself. 

I really think this is how I made my final breakthrough--my husband never gave up on wanting an intimate life with me. He always had hope, he pursued me. It wasn't a comfortable ten years, but at the end of it, it was my turn to take over.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Working,
> Your wife is trying. I would call what she is doing: WorkingOnUs
> 
> So let me try to break it down for you:
> ...


I agree with so much of this. My irritation with my husband not "doing it right" came from both places MEM mentions--from my trying to "cold start" my desire (which was infinitely frustrating to me. WHERE had my libido gone???) and from my irritation with him about . . . well, anything, really. We weren't in a good place in our marriage.

Look, if you've got resentments towards your husband, and he's got his hands on your tits or he's fingering you, it just does not feel good. In fact, it's damn irritating, to put it mildly. Add to that the knowledge (while you are still cold) that this is heading toward fvcking or oral, and add to _that_ the knowledge (or the suposition) that HE'S getting exactly what HE wants because HE is the one with the physical desire . . . well, you can see where I'm headed. It is so hard to quiet all those voices of resentment and doubt in your head while trying to endure the touch of your "tormentor" long enough to have the desire kick in so you can be a full and loving partner in the sex that is coming. 

So yeah, how to approach that sort of simmering quagmire of emotion? All I can say is that I hated it, too. On the times my husband hung in there (or was lucky enough to stumble upon how to touch me "just right), we'd have mind blowing sex and a wonderfully heightened sense of emotional intimacy in the afterglow.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> Perimenopause its awful!!!!
> 
> MEM's post nailed that part.
> 
> ...


I agree. Knowing and understanding how your own desire works is key--and being able to communicate that to your husband is just as important.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> She 'may' be saying it because sometimes she really 'does' want it faster, slower, etc. And it momentarily feels 'icky' for her when you go too fast, painful when too hard, ticklish when too soft.


Did you put a var in our bedroom? Haha. 

The weird part is that it's so variable through her cycle. The week or 10 days after her period she's pretty hot but usually my touch is 'too intense'. The week before she's ticklish or it feels icky. Plus she's b!tchy that week as well.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The weird part is that it's so variable through her cycle. The week or 10 days after her period she's pretty hot but usually my touch is 'too intense'. The week before she's ticklish or it feels icky. Plus she's b!tchy that week as well.


Estrogen levels fluctuate during our cycles, leaving testosterone more at the forefront or more in the background. The variation in hormone levels has a very definite affect on desire and what feels good. I can be climbing the wall horny one week, just "meh" the next week, and hate the sight of any living thing (including myself) the next. Being aware of what is going on hormonally in my body helps--I can moderate my behavior to a degree, but sometimes it does take super human effort to find my desire.

If you've never experienced this, I'm sure it's frustrating to try and figure it out. Your best bet is to accept it, and always approach with caution . . . er, I mean awareness.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Yeah...but just wait till she is on the other side of menapause and has hit her sexual peak....=-O ..... Kattie bar the boor guys you won't be able to keep up. Just thought this slightly older lady would let you know there is a light at the end of this tunnel......menopause doesn't last forever....and we ladies hit our peek later in life than you fellas!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Did you put a var in our bedroom? Haha.
> 
> The weird part is that it's so variable through her cycle. The week or 10 days after her period she's pretty hot but usually my touch is 'too intense'. The week before she's ticklish or it feels icky. Plus she's b!tchy that week as well.


I've learned to be in tune with her cycle. How I approach things changes a lot based on her cycle. Once I learned to work with it instead of fight it has resulted in us having a lot of fun. I like the variety, and if get it if I do it in tune with her body.

When she's near ovulation, she wants to be taken. For a few days either side, it's no foreplay, she loves it for me to jump right in to going down on her. Literally, I just yank her clothes off and go to town. She usually always has her first orgasm in under 5 minutes if I go down on her with no warmup. She likes it hot, fast and dirty talk gets her even more excited. She's impatient if I take my time.

Near her period, particularly right before, she wants it slow. Fast is a non-starter. She's told me it doesn't feel good at all until she's really warmed up. Sometimes she doesn't ever orgasm right before, but she likes the connection and as long as I don't seem impatient and / or selfish she likes it. In this case I take at least 1/2 hour before I touch either her nipples or go between her legs.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

mineforever said:


> Yeah...but just wait till she is on the other side of menapause and has hit her sexual peak....=-O ..... Kattie bar the boor guys you won't be able to keep up.


Eh, not so far. Yeah, she's got WAYYY more drive than me. My decline only really hit this last year (I'm 43). I'm good with every other day or so, and at 3 days I'm climbing the walls. 

But not be able to keep up? Not even close so far. I've declined to the point I can only orgasm 2 times a day on a sustained basis and about 4 if it's been more than a day without. BUUUUT I'm capable of stiffness even without orgasming so I haven't left her wanting so far - and even then my tongue is still working.



mineforever said:


> Just thought this slightly older lady would let you know there is a light at the end of this tunnel......menopause doesn't last forever....and we ladies hit our peek later in life than you fellas!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you saying desire picks up even more after menopause? Hmmm, I know that in another 10 years I probably won't be able to keep up.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> For the record I have ZERO resentment towards my husband.
> 
> This is all hormonal.


But it's even worse if there are resentments. Us fixing my marriage involved a lot of figuring out what I was and wasn't doing and fixing it.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> I've learned to be in tune with her cycle. How I approach things changes a lot based on her cycle. Once I learned to work with it instead of fight it has resulted in us having a lot of fun. I like the variety, and if get it if I do it in tune with her body.
> 
> When she's near ovulation, she wants to be taken. For a few days either side, it's no foreplay, she loves it for me to jump right in to going down on her. Literally, I just yank her clothes off and go to town. She usually always has her first orgasm in under 5 minutes if I go down on her with no warmup. She likes it hot, fast and dirty talk gets her even more excited. She's impatient if I take my time.
> 
> Near her period, particularly right before, she wants it slow. Fast is a non-starter. She's told me it doesn't feel good at all until she's really warmed up. Sometimes she doesn't ever orgasm right before, but she likes the connection and as long as I don't seem impatient and / or selfish she likes it. In this case I take at least 1/2 hour before I touch either her nipples or go between her legs.


I'm hoping my husband can learn to work with my cycle like this. You are right--fighting it is pointless. There is much fun to be had, but the approach has got to vary depending on where I am.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> I'm hoping my husband can learn to work with my cycle like this. You are right--fighting it is pointless. There is much fun to be had, but the approach has got to vary depending on where I am.


Have you spelled this out for him? Men can be so literal, they like to be told in explicit detail. If you explain it exactly like that, how your body and hence your arousal cycles he may do just that.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

WOM sometimes your posts remind me a bit of my (whatever he is).
He's always been shy, the girl always had to make the first move. Me included. One rejection can set him off for months. I had to learn to accept that, and not be resentful about it. If I wanted it to be a different way, well then I had to teach him how. 

If your wife is not really sexually confident, it's not likely she is going to dirty talk you through what she wants. That's too bad, because it seems like that is just what you need. 

Anyways, the comment I made about trust applied to both of you. I would agree that you give up too easily, and might even self-reject yourself (long ago thread about that one, I remember your comments). 

So what can you do personally, since your wife isn't posting on here talking to Catherine or SA to get tips on being more open to sexuality? You can wait around for her to see the light, or you can look at your reactions to her actions. Which you can learn to change.

In your case, it's not dead sex. You know she enjoys it. She can react a 100 different ways to your first touch. It's always _your_ choice to take it personally and be hurt. Every time. That's where you have given up power to her in the bedroom. 

I know it's easier said than done. making a break between other people's actions and your sense of self worth is not an easy task. 
Peace.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> Eh, not so far. Yeah, she's got WAYYY more drive than me. My decline only really hit this last year (I'm 43). I'm good with every other day or so, and at 3 days I'm climbing the walls.
> 
> But not be able to keep up? Not even close so far. I've declined to the point I can only orgasm 2 times a day on a sustained basis and about 4 if it's been more than a day without. BUUUUT I'm capable of stiffness even without orgasming so I haven't left her wanting so far - and even then my tongue is still working.
> 
> ...


Oh Yeah!!!!! I am 50 this year and I could go at it atleast once a day, twice if I can do bj first.....hubs on the other hand is only up for it 2-3 times a week. :-( We have both always been HD, age is slowing him down a little but we are working on that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> *I've learned to be in tune with her cycle. How I approach things changes a lot based on her cycle. Once I learned to work with it instead of fight it has resulted in us having a lot of fun. I like the variety, and if get it if I do it in tune with her body.*
> 
> When she's near ovulation, she wants to be taken. For a few days either side, it's no foreplay, she loves it for me to jump right in to going down on her. Literally, I just yank her clothes off and go to town. She usually always has her first orgasm in under 5 minutes if I go down on her with no warmup. She likes it hot, fast and dirty talk gets her even more excited. She's impatient if I take my time.
> 
> Near her period, particularly right before, she wants it slow. Fast is a non-starter. She's told me it doesn't feel good at all until she's really warmed up. Sometimes she doesn't ever orgasm right before, but she likes the connection and as long as I don't seem impatient and / or selfish she likes it. In this case I take at least 1/2 hour before I touch either her nipples or go between her legs.


This is a very insightful piece of information which I learned before I was married from a man much older than me.

I think women are wired different to men in the psychosexual context.
They attach emotional value to sex in a different way than men.

Birth control can also mess with her natural , hormonal balance

It is important to understand your wife's menstrual cycle/ calender , to know what's happening to her.
I'm not saying it is a " cure all " or even a solution for the OP's situation. 
I'm just glad that you made the observation.
OP,sorry for the thread jack!


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Birth control can also mess with her natural , hormonal balance


:iagree:

My wife taking hormonal birth control plus a SSRI anti-depressant for postpartum depression killed her desire altogether for quite a while. Fortunately none of the changes were permanent. 

BOTH should have come with a warning from the doc - but none was made and we went in unprepared. I'm not saying that she shouldn't have taken them, but that we should have at least been aware of the problems they can cause. 



Caribbean Man said:


> I'm not saying it is a " cure all " or even a solution for the OP's situation.
> I'm just glad that you made the observation.
> OP,sorry for the thread jack!


I hope WOM doesn't consider it a hijack since it sounds like it is part of the dynamic going on in his marriage.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

No I don't consider it a hijack. Her tubes were tied in 2002 so it's more age related hormones. Definitely no bc!


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

I just want to say how fascinating this thread has been for me. Thank you OP for starting it. It has been very insightful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GettingIt,
What do you do to 'cue' him? If you don't cue him - how does he know what to do? 


WorkingOnMe,
It is normal to react badly to having your technique criticized. Normal and destructive. 

Even more normal to be defensive when you are the HD partner and have suffered a lot of rejection. 

And just as normal for the LD partner to get more and more hurt and angry when faced with defensiveness and not empathy after just telling you what feels bad 'right now'. Or what they really WANT right now. 

-----
I have found that in a cold start, it is best to start kissing my wife lips only- no tongue. I kiss her like that and after a while she is kissing ME passionately. 

The reason I started doing that is simple. I asked myself: would I want to French kiss someone when I wasn't yet turned on? Answer was: not really

So I kiss her in a way that means: I want you 
And let her body set the pace for when she feels enough heat to 'want more'. 






GettingIt said:


> I'm hoping my husband can learn to work with my cycle like this. You are right--fighting it is pointless. There is much fun to be had, but the approach has got to vary depending on where I am.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

tracyishere said:


> I just want to say how fascinating this thread has been for me. Thank you OP for starting it. It has been very insightful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lot of good info here. My situation is like a mosaic from several of yours, so i'm trying to piece together a lot of what i'm learning here. Keep it coming!


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

I think my situation is totally different now. Well, for one being that my H doesn't have a period every month and he never criticizes my technique he just rejects my initiation. Not sure i could add any beneficial advice here. But I am very interested in the topic none the less.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

tracyishere said:


> I think my situation is totally different now. Well, for one being that my H doesn't have a period every month and he never criticizes my technique he just rejects my initiation. Not sure i could add any beneficial advice here. But I am very interested in the topic none the less.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's a lot harder for HD women with LD men. Very few LD men will even fess up that their LD, and don't see a problem with it. I can't even relate to a LD men and have no insight on how to deal with them.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

I don't think it would be any harder than an HD husband and LD wife. Same frustrations, same rejections, same doubts... Just different genders. No?
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Also I am not certain that my H is even LD. He seems to be amused with my eagerness. I get aroused very easily and he plays on that, saying things or doing things that'll make me excited but then let's me linger for an eternity it seems before he'll please. 

I won't lie, I beg regularly. LOL. 

I think it's more the control thing we have spoke about earlier. It sucks.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm sure she has some inhibitions. Last night I "dipped a toe into the water" of dirty talking. I hovered just outside for a while and asked (whispered) if she wanted it. At first she said nothing. So I asked again. She finally just said yes. So I said "beg for it". Which resulted in a frustrated sigh and admonition not to do that and that I was going to make her start laughing. So, fail.
> 
> Anyway, pushing and being assertive worked for some time last year. But then this weird pattern started. She thinks it has to do with peri menopause hormone levels. I feel like I just need to find the magic combination to make it work. Like I said, it's pretty good once we're past the first couple minutes. The times it's not good is just when my own mind is messed up from the start of it and I can't let it go. Sometimes that will make me lose it if you know what I mean.


I wonder what would have happened if you came back with something light and humorous. Something like. "I won't make you laugh I'll make you scream" or "show me".

You are sensitive to rejection so you see it even when it may not be there. I think she was asking you to keep going, make her want it. The dynamic is exactly the same as last year but she is changing it up. 

Making it more interesting and challenging. You have to expect that. You are not getting the same old thing. She is giving you variety, so what's to complain?? 

Suppose she has fantasies about you insisting she have sex and she is playing them out? She may not tell you.

If you could just decrease your sensitivity to rejection and plow through it. Ignore the voice in your head that is stopping you from pushing ahead. 

Sometimes she really wont want to have sex but if you'll be able to tell once every thing she does seems like a rejection. Then you don't initiate.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

larry.gray said:


> It's a lot harder for HD women with LD men. Very few LD men will even fess up that their LD, and don't see a problem with it. I can't even relate to a LD men and have no insight on how to deal with them.


Is it true that when a man who does not want to have sex that he will not be able to get an erection?


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Is it true that when a man who does not want to have sex that he will not be able to get an erection?


I know my H has been rock hard and still rejected me... ;( bummer
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

tracyishere said:


> I know my H has been rock hard and still rejected me... ;( bummer
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow do you think he is being passive aggressive?


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

I gave up trying to figure him out! LOL.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

He is very emotionally immature and yes very passive aggressive. However, he has improved his communication skills drastically over the passed 9 months. Almost a new man! But this rejection thing has happened since I met him. It used to really bother me, to the point where I didn't want to be physical with him anymore. I hated the roller coaster of emotions. From being excited and horny to feeling rejected and undesired. 

I'm used to it now. That's why I think this thread got my attention. It made me realize the problem is still there. I just have developed coping methods to deal with it.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ok so I took the fantasy quiz earlier today. I just in the past couple minutes got an email with her answers. Just the answers where we both answered something other than no. There were a few where she answered "we already do that" But 100% of the remainder were answered "if my partner wants to". There were no yes answers at all.

WTF???

It's like the whole thing was completely useless. So she doesn't WANT anything. None of it. But she'll play along if I want it. Can anyone understand why I wouldn't be enthusiastic about that? sex in a car Him: yes, her: if my partner wants to. Ok, well, no thanks.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Ok so I took the fantasy quiz earlier today. I just in the past couple minutes got an email with her answers. Just the answers where we both answered something other than no. There were a few where she answered "we already do that" But 100% of the remainder were answered "if my partner wants to". There were no yes answers at all.
> 
> WTF???
> 
> It's like the whole thing was completely useless. So she doesn't WANT anything. None of it. But she'll play along if I want it. Can anyone understand why I wouldn't be enthusiastic about that? sex in a car Him: yes, her: if my partner wants to. Ok, well, no thanks.


Ugh is that quasi passive aggressive :wtf::scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

She didn't say no. You may be reading too much into it. Maybe she does want those things but only feels safe doing so if you're the one to make the first attempt??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Some of the items she said 'if my partner wants to' are things she's already said no to. Dirty talking? She froze like a deer in the headlights. Car sex? She's said no repeatedly. Riding crops? Already said no. Hell we already have them in the tack room.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

Your wife is as confusing as my husband. I got nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Working,
I am confused. You have a pretty tense/painful initiation sequence. Why not focus on that and see if you can resolve or improve it. 

At some level you simply don't seem to want to accept what she likes/dislikes?





WorkingOnMe said:


> Some of the items she said 'if my partner wants to' are things she's already said no to. Dirty talking? She froze like a deer in the headlights. Car sex? She's said no repeatedly. Riding crops? Already said no. He'll we already have them in the tack room.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,
I loved 'blink'. 

And really believe that Gladwell could have been a consultant to the producers of the tv show 'Lie to Me'. 





Catherine602 said:


> Looked up contempt. The formal definition goes like this:
> 
> Contempt - the object of contempt is regarded negatively for not living up to a set of interpersonal standards that are considered important to the person feeling contempt.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Working,
I genuinely believe you are a good guy. 

And also believe that you are still mentally - partly stuck - back in the 10 year drought. 

When:
- a woman places your hand where she wants it - THAT is her initiating
- a woman sends you a text 'bed' - THAT is initiating

Your wife initiates. Give her credit for that because it IS happening. 

You can shape a bit of her behavior and you should. But you really cannot turn her into a man without giving her injections of testosterone. 





WorkingOnMe said:


> Oh I get it whenever I want. As long as I go through the ritual. I got it last night. We were cuddling in bed and she moved my hand where she wanted it. So she initiated but placed my hand so it would look like I initiated. From 10,000' anyway.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Working,
> I genuinely believe you are a good guy.
> 
> And also believe that you are still mentally - partly stuck - back in the 10 year drought.
> ...


The issue of this thread is that she is the ONLY one who can initiate. I know that was her initiating. She always does. She doesn't allow me to initiate.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Working,
> I am confused. You have a pretty tense/painful initiation sequence. Why not focus on that and see if you can resolve or improve it.
> 
> At some level you simply don't seem to want to accept what she likes/dislikes?


The survey from the other thread shows me that I really can't tell what she likes/dislikes. She keeps it a guarded secret. I answered the questions mostly yes/no in good faith. She answered 'if my partner wants'. So I exposed myself and she let me know her limits but didn't expose herself. 

You're right though. I should have stuck to the issue at hand and not tried the survey.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

If it helps, not sure if it applies to your situation or not. But, some of the coping methods I use include: 
Go along with it- so he likes to tease, it can be fun. I sometimes enjoy the long wait if I play into it
Be more subtle- I've learned that by coming on too strong I'm more often then not shot down right away, however if I build up to the moment by flirting or sending a naughty video, he's more receptive later on
Realize that it may just be the way they get turned on- My H has stopped me mid BJ and made me wait. He gets his thrill by seeing me yearn for him. 
Don't take it personally- my H still loves me, still finds me attractive, still wants to be intimate with me, still shows passion and affection for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The survey from the other thread shows me that I really can't tell what she likes/dislikes. She keeps it a guarded secret. I answered the questions mostly yes/no in good faith. She answered 'if my partner wants'. So I exposed myself and she let me know her limits but didn't expose herself.
> 
> You're right though. I should have stuck to the issue at hand and not tried the survey.


As a woman, I would respond "if he wants to" if it's something I've never done, or don't know how to do... meaning someone would have to "lead" me there. 

For a woman, this is a dangerous game. You don't want your partner to think you are a slvt. Unless you have a good sense of sexuality... and then you are okay with being a slvt, in certain circumstances. 

Since she has to initiate... and you aren't great at making the first move... she would have to initiate this stuff, right? In that case, I would have said no too.
(this happened to me, btw.) I took it as... sigh... yet another thing he wants me to do, and I'll have to be the brave one and start it.

When did you do this again? A couple of months ago? Any chance that is affecting her?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

deejov said:


> As a woman, I would respond "if he wants to" if it's something I've never done, or don't know how to do... meaning someone would have to "lead" me there.


I would be ok with some things being answered that way. But she didn't have any yes's at all. It's like she only does ANYTHING just to keep me happy. She doesn't want any of it for herself.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Is it true that when a man who does not want to have sex that he will not be able to get an erection?


Yes true, for some men including myself.

But the big difference is, after I realized that my wife need sex, we decided upon scheduled sex. I learned self-suggestions techniques and consumed food supplements, so I am ready for the weekend. If there is a schedule, I could psyche myself into being ready to have sex at the scheduled time. Most of the time it works. I give credits to all those good people who invented Kratingdaeng (original Red Bull) for improving my stamina.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

Scheduled sex would kill my drive. Kudos to you for doing it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

tracyishere said:


> Scheduled sex would kill my drive. Kudos to you for doing it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you! I am blessed with a wife whom are very understanding, and she found ways to communicate her needs into my thick skull. I am always look forward to my days off (near the end of the year, and around the Muslim holiday), at that time I could feel relaxed enough to have more fun with her, something I couldn't do in weekdays due to being too busy working. 

Off course I realize that this might not work for everyone. Some people are more spontaneous in their desire, and indeed, a regular schedule would be horrible for them. "..It took out the elements of surprise and makes things feels programmatic.." That's what my friend told me, and he is a programmer. Ouch.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> Isn't this what I said in my first post?
> 
> 10 years sexless to me still means its not in her top list of favorite things to do.
> 
> ...


Sounds like Mavash has it nailed down here. She's willing but that "need" isn't there. It doesn't mean she isn't enjoying it, she's just not driven to it like a more HD person would be.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The survey from the other thread shows me that I really can't tell what she likes/dislikes. She keeps it a guarded secret. I answered the questions mostly yes/no in good faith. She answered 'if my partner wants'. So I exposed myself and she let me know her limits but didn't expose herself.
> 
> You're right though. I should have stuck to the issue at hand and not tried the survey.


Your answer to what she likes IS in the survey--but it's in her answers, not in the questions. 

You say you answered in good faith; I think she did, too. What she likes is for you to take the lead, to show her what you want. In short, she wants to please you. You might have to accept that this is her #1 "want" when it comes to sex.

She might love the riding crop or [insert kink of choice here] if you introduce it, allow her to adjust to it (including giving you instruction), and push through your inclinations to give up when she seems critical. You know the saying that says "It's not about the destination, it's about the journey?" Well, in your case, maybe you could focus a little more on the rewards of the destination and not sweat the details of how you're getting there.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> Your answer to what she likes IS in the survey--but it's in her answers, not in the questions.
> 
> You say you answered in good faith; I think she did, too. What she likes is for you to take the lead, to show her what you want. In short, she wants to please you. You might have to accept that this is her #1 "want" when it comes to sex.
> 
> She might love the riding crop or [insert kink of choice here] if you introduce it, allow her to adjust to it (including giving you instruction), and push through your inclinations to give up when she seems critical. You know the saying that says "It's not about the destination, it's about the journey?" Well, in your case, maybe you could focus a little more on the rewards of the destination and not sweat the details of how you're getting there.


I've been thinking about it, trying to figure out how to move forward. I don't think you're right. I don't think her #1 want is to please me. She doesn't want. She showed what she's willing to do, not that she wants it. From now on, whatever we're doing, I'll know she's only doing it to pacify me. That she's doing something she wouldn't otherwise want to do. I can't see myself really ever being happy with that. More like disappointed. I think I'm starting tu understand more about why Trickster started his thread about giving up. I don't think it's enough for me that she's willing. I need to be wanted, not obeyed.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I've been thinking about it, trying to figure out how to move forward. I don't think you're right. I don't think her #1 want is to please me. She doesn't want. She showed what she's willing to do, not that she wants it. From now on, whatever we're doing, I'll know she's only doing it to pacify me. That she's doing something she wouldn't otherwise want to do. I can't see myself really ever being happy with that. More like disappointed. I think I'm starting tu understand more about why Trickster started his thread about giving up. I don't think it's enough for me that she's willing. I need to be wanted, not obeyed.


But you are wanted, she wouldn't have sex with someone she didn't want. She would continue to reject, but she doesn't. She tries to show you love in the way that you best receive it, which means that she loves you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

Feeling desired by your SO is a huge component in remaining happy. I feel for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I've been thinking about it, trying to figure out how to move forward. I don't think you're right. I don't think her #1 want is to please me. She doesn't want. She showed what she's willing to do, not that she wants it. From now on, whatever we're doing, I'll know she's only doing it to pacify me. That she's doing something she wouldn't otherwise want to do. I can't see myself really ever being happy with that. More like disappointed. I think I'm starting tu understand more about why Trickster started his thread about giving up. I don't think it's enough for me that she's willing. I need to be wanted, not obeyed.


I can understand where you are coming from. My husband would feel the same way, I think. This is one of those situations where either or both of you _could_ do work to make the situation better, but neither of you seem _able_ to. I suppose that is why you titled this thread "chemistry problems." 

So much of the enjoyment of sex in long term relationships is tied into what the other person is bringing to and receiving from the exchange. It's not enough that we reap enjoyment, we want our partner to experience it equally. I get that. 

I will say, however, that you might be selling yourself short in that, in order for you to be satisfied with sex, you require that your wife enjoy it in the same manner as you do. This is hard to put right . . . let me see. . . You are judging whether or not she enjoys sex based on whether or not she goes through the same process by which YOU judge the value and "goodness" of sex. She is enjoying in in her own right, perhaps very much so, but you are rejecting her system of judgement because it does not reflect your own and its not one that you personally value. 

Ugh, it's so hard to put in words. I guess when you make love to someone, part of doing that is appreciating what they give to you, what they can give to you, the part of themselves that they are willingly sharing. To always be looking past what they are giving to what you are not getting is problematic in a "self fulfilling prophesy" sort of way. 

If I missed the answer to this, or asked it before, I'm sorry, but did you and your wife every have the kind of sex life you found satisfying, or have you always had this dynamic with her?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I've been thinking about it, trying to figure out how to move forward. I don't think you're right. I don't think her #1 want is to please me. *She doesn't want. She showed what she's willing to do, not that she wants it. From now on, whatever we're doing, I'll know she's only doing it to pacify me. That she's doing something she wouldn't otherwise want to do. *I can't see myself really ever being happy with that. More like disappointed. I think I'm starting tu understand more about why Trickster started his thread about giving up. I don't think it's enough for me that she's willing. I need to be wanted, not obeyed.


This right here--this assumption and assigning negative value to what she offers is what I mean about it turning into a self-fulfilling prophesy. Would you wife describe her part in sex this way? You get it in your head that it's duty sex because she's not the one with a list of things that really turn her on. But YOU turn her on! YOU get her going and make her enjoy sex. Only YOU can do this. In some ways, that's a lot more impressive that satisfying a woman who is easily satisfied in a variety of ways. 

Look, I see where you are coming from, I really do. Life is short, we all question if there is something out there that could make us happier. When it feels like we've been banging our head against the wall and we're not seeing results and we come to realize that we might not, moving on sure does start to look like an option. Trickster's story is painful, I've read it, but I'm not sure that it is your story at all.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> This right here--this assumption and assigning negative value to what she offers is what I mean about it turning into a self-fulfilling prophesy. Would you wife describe her part in sex this way? You get it in your head that it's duty sex because she's not the one with a list of things that really turn her on. But YOU turn her on! YOU get her going and make her enjoy sex. Only YOU can do this. In some ways, that's a lot more impressive that satisfying a woman who is easily satisfied in a variety of ways.
> 
> Look, I see where you are coming from, I really do. Life is short, we all question if there is something out there that could make us happier. When it feels like we've been banging our head against the wall and we're not seeing results and we come to realize that we might not, moving on sure does start to look like an option. Trickster's story is painful, I've read it, but I'm not sure that it is your story at all.


I totally agree with this and I know exactly what you are saying. I identify with WOM's wife, she wants to satisfy him but he places a negative value on what she offers because she isn't feeling the same lust driven high sex drive that he feels. My husband is the same way, for example he measures how aroused I am by how lubricated I am. Now, I am hitting premenopause and lubrication is not coming along naturally like it used to. So we have to buy it in the store. He is disappointed of course, cause now how would he know if I am aroused and excited or not?

My point is that we can't use the same measuring stick for everyone. It is discouraging to constantly come up short to his expectations and it lowers my drive. Why participate in an activity that you know you will come up short?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Working,
Your wife:
- Is willing to consistently participate in a 'cold start' - that is love and commitment
- She DOES get turned on - that is attraction. 

I agree the cold start is a bit rough on you also though you haven't really mentioned her tone/wording (kind, neutral, cruel). And hopefully you now realize that her alternating preferences are likely related to 'cycle'.

Also agree that you need to be able to initiate. You may need to find an ignition sequence that works for her. 

I think it is ok to tell her you ARE going to initiate and you are NOT ok with a reflexive rejection. If she wants or NEEDS some lead time, then she needs to say what she wants. 

It is healthy to give her a parallel: What if every time she asked you for an act of service you rejected her? And did so in a similar way which goes something like this: I am busy/tired/etc. 

I do think you are right about the way she responds to the dog wanting a treat. 

I also wonder how your wife would respond to you putting yourself out there in a scary way. 

What does she do when are well inside her personal space and lock eyes while saying 'I WANT you'?

If you do that a couple hours before bed - what happens? 

If it produces a bad outcome I wonder if there is a 'trust' issue. 

Is she afraid that saying 'yes' will produce a frequency level she finds grinding? 

The best way to find out is to 'do it' expecting her to somehow avoid, evade or reject. And when that happens, flat out ask the question. Ask if she is afraid that saying yes will lead to you pressing harder and harder? 

This is just an observation from a guy who doesn't know you:
1. The 'cold start' is painful for you
2. Her refusal to allow you to initiate is painful for you
3. Her lack of interest in variety is upsetting to you

If she was posting:
1. He gets upset/angry when I tell him what I want him to do differently 
2. He doesn't seem to care that when my nipples are sensitive or I am not yet turned on it feels BAD to be touched like that
3. He sent me a survey with a lot of variations that I have already said I don't want to do

Overall it sure feels more like this is something he wants to do 'to me' instead of 'with me'.

And yes, I am controlling and sometimes *****y but I am trying. He doesn't grasp that he gets immediately angry if he cannot control how adventurous or frequent sex is. And gets hurt/upset when I ask what I want. 




QUOTE=WorkingOnMe;4277234]I've been thinking about it, trying to figure out how to move forward. I don't think you're right. I don't think her #1 want is to please me. She doesn't want. She showed what she's willing to do, not that she wants it. From now on, whatever we're doing, I'll know she's only doing it to pacify me. That she's doing something she wouldn't otherwise want to do. I can't see myself really ever being happy with that. More like disappointed. I think I'm starting tu understand more about why Trickster started his thread about giving up. I don't think it's enough for me that she's willing. I need to be wanted, not obeyed.[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

He needs to learn to accept that the LD partner who is 'giving you all they have' is a treasure. 




techmom said:


> I totally agree with this and I know exactly what you are saying. I identify with WOM's wife, she wants to satisfy him but he places a negative value on what she offers because she isn't feeling the same lust driven high sex drive that he feels. My husband is the same way, for example he measures how aroused I am by how lubricated I am. Now, I am hitting premenopause and lubrication is not coming along naturally like it used to. So we have to buy it in the store. He is disappointed of course, cause now how would he know if I am aroused and excited or not?
> 
> My point is that we can't use the same measuring stick for everyone. It is discouraging to constantly come up short to his expectations and it lowers my drive. Why participate in an activity that you know you will come up short?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Is she afraid that saying 'yes' will produce a frequency level she finds grinding?


My guess is that's similar to the dog treat situation. If she gives the dog a treat when he asks/begs, the dog will learn to ask for treats...and he'll keep asking and asking and asking. She doesn't want to feel "hounded" for treats by either the dog, or her husband.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I think this is right. 

It feels somewhat mean spirited. 





norajane said:


> My guess is that's similar to the dog treat situation. If she gives the dog a treat when he asks/begs, the dog will learn to ask for treats...and he'll keep asking and asking and asking. She doesn't want to feel "hounded" for treats by either the dog, or her husband.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> I think this is right.
> 
> It feels somewhat mean spirited.


It's not necessarily mean spirited. I do that with my cat, and it's because I don't want to set her up to be disappointed. I know I can't give her treats whenever she asks, so if she learns to keep asking, I'll have to disappoint her more often than not. 

WOM's wife knows she doesn't want to have sex as often as WOM does. So she'll have to say no to WOM and _actively_ disappoint him a lot more often if he initiates whenever he'd like to have sex with her.

If she's felt resentful of him asking her for sex in the past, then it's also a way to prevent that resentment from coming back and building up again.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Yes true, for some men including myself.
> 
> But the big difference is, after I realized that my wife need sex, we decided upon scheduled sex. I learned self-suggestions techniques and consumed food supplements, so I am ready for the weekend. If there is a schedule, I could psyche myself into being ready to have sex at the scheduled time. Most of the time it works. I give credits to all those good people who invented Kratingdaeng (original Red Bull) for improving my stamina.


Thank you John. I appreciate your sharing. There are so few LD men who talk about how they feel. I am glad you stay around to share your experiences. It should inspire all LD people with HD partners. 

I have to get psyched for sex too. I think I have a normal drive but have to make a conscious effort to concentrate on sex. When I do that and my husband is patient with foreplay, the fire is lit. His pilot light is always on, mine isn't. Save for about three consecutive days before my menses.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Agreed. 

And that is what happens when partners experience sex primarily based on how it feels for themselves, as opposed to a mutual activity that needs to be consistently positive for their partner and their bond. 

There was a recent thread about a guy who frequently gave his wife foot massages. So one night she says: 
"I let you do that because I know you like it."

Sadly most of the posters immediately said some version of: 'your wife is a - female dog'

I didn't get that at all. I thought he should ask her a bunch of questions to figure out if he could do it in a way she DOES like, or at bare minimum avoids it feeling bad. 

Why is she obligated to like foot massages or the way he gives a foot massage? 

If you can't figure out how to make it a positive experience for your partner, why would you want to continue? 






norajane said:


> It's not necessarily mean spirited. I do that with my cat, and it's because I don't want to set her up to be disappointed. I know I can't give her treats whenever she asks, so if she learns to keep asking, I'll have to disappoint her more often than not.
> 
> WOM's wife knows she doesn't want to have sex as often as WOM does. So she'll have to say no to WOM and _actively_ disappoint him a lot more often if he initiates whenever he'd like to have sex with her.
> 
> If she's felt resentful of him asking her for sex in the past, then it's also a way to prevent that resentment from coming back and building up again.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The issue of this thread is that she is the ONLY one who can initiate. I know that was her initiating. She always does. She doesn't allow me to initiate.


I have the same problem only more so. I have been rejected so often I just quit trying. I would be thrilled with once a week.

Don't want to thread jack, but I will be reading in hopes of learning something.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

norajane said:


> If she's felt resentful of him asking her for sex in the past, then it's also a way to prevent that resentment from coming back and building up again.


I think you're probably right, but it is also incredibly stupid thinking on her part if true. She thinks that will help him get over the resentment???!!! Just crazy.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Is she afraid that saying 'yes' will produce a frequency level she finds grinding?


She said this, in so many words, last summer. I mentioned before, but last year we were doing it a lot. She knew there was trouble in paradise and she was initiating 3/4 times a week. Then I tried to take a tentative step toward initiating myself and was told that she couldn't have sex "every day"! Not that I was trying to have sex every day, but she couldn't wrap her mind around the fact that she was initiating 3/4 times a week and I would still feel the need to initiate more. So her response to my initiating limited how often I was willing to do it, and at the same time she started initiating less...and we moved down to 1/2 times a week.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Isn't it kinda accepted that the LD partner sets the frequency? I know that is how it goes, but is this something you would want to change?

I'm asking if you want to set the pace, and decide how often. It seems like you do. What is the best scenario? What's the compromise?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nora,
And the 'flip side' is an LD partner who kills the marriage via casual rejection and sustained hypothermia. 

A considerate partner says: Right now, more than X frequency is hard on me. If you can work with that and be a little aware of obviously bad times, feel free to initiate. 

Just accept that I want to initiate when I 'am' more in the mood because it is better for me on those nights. 


QUOTE=norajane;4279314]It's not necessarily mean spirited. I do that with my cat, and it's because I don't want to set her up to be disappointed. I know I can't give her treats whenever she asks, so if she learns to keep asking, I'll have to disappoint her more often than not. 

WOM's wife knows she doesn't want to have sex as often as WOM does. So she'll have to say no to WOM and _actively_ disappoint him a lot more often if he initiates whenever he'd like to have sex with her.

If she's felt resentful of him asking her for sex in the past, then it's also a way to prevent that resentment from coming back and building up again.[/QUOTE]


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

deejov said:


> Isn't it kinda accepted that the LD partner sets the frequency? I know that is how it goes, but is this something you would want to change?
> 
> I'm asking if you want to set the pace, and decide how often. It seems like you do. What is the best scenario? What's the compromise?


First, I've been compromising for many many years so part of me definitely feels like it's her turn to compromise.

But aside from that, I am actually ok with her setting a reasonable compromise frequency. I know "every day" is too much for her. The 3/4 times a week, 3 weeks a month that she was doing before was actually quite good. Even 2/3 times a week would be good. What is the best case scenario? How about, she decides how often (per week) and I decide which days? Like, I get 2 tokens a week and I get to decide if I want to use them up Monday night and Tuesday morning or save them for the weekend or whatever. I really hate the idea of it being so mechanical, but I'm looking to have myself inserted as at least some part of the process.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Has it stayed stable or has she tried to go less than 1-2 times a week?


Of course you know I'm a CPA. Yes in February March and through 4/15 it was less. Not that we absolutely didn't have time, but the rare time that we did have we spent just being together. I work a LOT of hours during that period.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Nora,
> And the 'flip side' is an LD partner who kills the marriage via casual rejection and sustained hypothermia.
> 
> A considerate partner says: Right now, more than X frequency is hard on me. If you can work with that and be a little aware of obviously bad times, feel free to initiate.
> ...


I suspect this issue between them is fraught with emotional landmines, and that makes it hard for them to talk about it without a lot of baggage and history getting in the way of their words and their understanding of the other person.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deejov,
Every sexless marriage (between two healthy people) contains an 
HD partner who has conceded near absolute veto power to their LD spouse. 

In a healthy marriage both spouses 'flex' hard to meet each others needs. In and out of the bedroom. 

But the bed-flex is on way more than just frequency. 

One of the funniest posts I ever read was by an LD spouse (who got divorced shortly after) saying:
If the LD wants it once a month and
Their HD spouse wants it daily 

They should compromise on twice a month. 

So this persons idea of a midpoint between: 12/year and 365/year was 24. When I questioned their math, they fled the thread. 




QUOTE=deejov;4279866]Isn't it kinda accepted that the LD partner sets the frequency? I know that is how it goes, but is this something you would want to change?

I'm asking if you want to set the pace, and decide how often. It seems like you do. What is the best scenario? What's the compromise?[/QUOTE]


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Read this back and you have your answer.
> 
> She upped the sex to keep you.
> 
> ...


When you say "destabilizing the relationship" are you referring to me destabilizing it? Or her? In my mind, I destabilized the relationship, she responded by upping the sex. Then when I stopped destabilizing she lowered it back down. And at this point I guess I'm destabilizing it again. This is NOT the pattern I want to be in.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

There seems to be more here than meets the eye. I admit that i am confused. Is the main issue that she rejects when you initiate but will herself initiate? Or is it that she initiates but she does not tell you what she wants verbally or that she tells you what she wants but in a way that turns you off, or she puts the onus on you to take a chance and lead or she changes her mind periodically about what she likes and dislikes? 

Can you make a list of the problems in order of importance FYEO. Then think about it. Are there conflicting things you are expecting? 

I can't find an underlying problem to focus on. Once one thing is discussed then a confounding problem comes up. 

Like your wife, you seem to have a moving target. You are more like your wife than you think? If you understand yourself and how to reign in your anxieties you may be able to lead her. 

I am not minimizing your frustration with your wife. It is just that I see so much good that you have to work with if you could get past the damage of the 10 yr badlands. 

Your reactions to what she does puzzles me, given what you shared. It seems that there is something missing from the story. Maybe it is your background and childhood experiences that are somehow interculating themselves in the present. 

Is that possible WOM?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> First, I've been compromising for many many years so part of me definitely feels like it's her turn to compromise.
> 
> But aside from that, I am actually ok with her setting a reasonable compromise frequency. I know "every day" is too much for her. The 3/4 times a week, 3 weeks a month that she was doing before was actually quite good. Even 2/3 times a week would be good. What is the best case scenario? How about, she decides how often (per week) and I decide which days? Like, I get 2 tokens a week and I get to decide if I want to use them up Monday night and Tuesday morning or save them for the weekend or whatever. I really hate the idea of it being so mechanical, but I'm looking to have myself inserted as at least some part of the process.


Yeah, I can relate to "feeling" like your partner owes you for time missed. Do you think you are stuck on a number? it has to be so many times a week?

What jumps out at me is that I get the impression that you want to decide WHEN. That would be lovely.. if life worked that way.

I can understand why she is setting the pace, and doing the initiating. When she's in the mood, she does it. The good news is... when you do initiate, she may at first, refuse you. But you ARE getting her in the mood, and she then later initiates. Are you missing this point??


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

deejov said:


> Yeah, I can relate to "feeling" like your partner owes you for time missed. Do you think you are stuck on a number? it has to be so many times a week?
> 
> What jumps out at me is that I get the impression that you want to decide WHEN. That would be lovely.. if life worked that way.
> 
> I can understand why she is setting the pace, and doing the initiating. When she's in the mood, she does it. The good news is... when you do initiate, she may at first, refuse you. But you ARE getting her in the mood, and she then later initiates. Are you missing this point??


I'm not missing that point. Actually that's pretty much how it goes. If she's in the mood then she expects that I'm up for it pretty much any time. And that's more or less true. But when I'm in the mood, we have to play the game where I initiate, she rejects and then initiates shortly thereafter.

The little short term rejection she does makes me go out of the mood and it's difficult for me to get back into it. It makes me tentative and she has to do everything (EVERYTHING) until I get my mojo back.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> I think this is right.
> 
> It feels somewhat mean spirited.


Seems like passive -aggressive behavior. There are effective interpersonal strategies to deal with this behavior. 

Why do people get passive aggressive? What do they hope to gain? Maybe it would help if you knew WOM. 

MEM Gladwell is one of my favorite non-fiction author's. He has a new book coming out in Oct. entitled David and Goliath. Can't wait to read it.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> There seems to be more here than meets the eye. I admit that i am confused. Is the main issue that she rejects when you initiate but will herself initiate? Or is it that she initiates but she does not tell you what she wants verbally or that she tells you what she wants but in a way that turns you off, or she puts the onus on you to take a chance and lead or she changes her mind periodically about what she likes and dislikes?
> 
> Can you make a list of the problems in order of importance FYEO. Then think about it. Are there conflicting things you are expecting?
> 
> ...


Believe me, I'm just as confused as you.

Perhaps I can try to sum it up with a metaphor. One of the things I do in my spare time is I lead climbs for a club. The club puts on classes and after people finish the classes they attempt climbs. So I'm leading them, but they really want to be there. They're putting in a lot of effort and work and doing lots of things that are new and exciting. After a while, the ones who really love it....they're one-upping me and we're feeding off from each other. Expanding the things we're doing in the mountains, climbing harder peaks, more remote, etc... Now, my wife is afraid of heights. She has never wanted to come with. But earlier this year she finally (after 9 years of me climbing) decided she wanted to try it. So here I am leading again. We go to a very easy crag. My 10 year old is climbing. My oldest son's 15 year old girlfriend is climbing. And while she's doing it, it's clear that my wife does not want to be doing this. I'm leading, and she's coming along kicking and screaming (not literally).

I think that MEM would say that she showed up at the crag that day out of love and that I should appreciate it. And I do appreciate it. But given a choice between her doing something she's not into "for me" and her just not doing it, I'd be happier with the latter.

That probably doesn't answer your question. Like I said, I'm as confused as you are and maybe I'm not really sure what I really want.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm not missing that point. Actually that's pretty much how it goes. If she's in the mood then she expects that I'm up for it pretty much any time. And that's more or less true. But when I'm in the mood, we have to play the game where I initiate, she rejects and then initiates shortly thereafter.
> 
> The little short term rejection she does makes me go out of the mood and it's difficult for me to get back into it. It makes me tentative and she has to do everything (EVERYTHING) until I get my mojo back.


When do you initiate? Her texting you to come to bed and then you starting to touch her is not you initiating. That's her initiating with the bed text. So that little rejection she does isn't really her rejecting you when you initiate.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

The climbing thing. It is not so puzzling is it? 

Your wife was there doing something she found difficult but, on the face of it, she did it for you. She probably expected you to be solicitous of her, like a new bf who is crazy about his girl. 

Did you act like a drill sargent and tell her to get up there like everybody else? The fact that the other people were able to climb is really immaterial. 

She probably wanted you to treat her like a man who was in love with his gf. Is that how you treated her, like a special gf and not like everybody else.

This episode was emblematic of some aspects of your relationship. You did not necessarily behave the way you should have. 

You said at one point that you spent a lot of time perusing activities that took you away from your family. You said that you adjusted your time and your relationship got better. 

Do you two have any hobbies or pursuits that you both like that are challenging? 

Have you evaluated the amount of leisure time you two spend together? Do you act as excited to do things with her as you do climbing. 

May sound silly but most women need periodic reassurance in word, deed and behavior that they are special to their man.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

norajane said:


> My guess is that's similar to the dog treat situation. If she gives the dog a treat when he asks/begs, the dog will learn to ask for treats...and he'll keep asking and asking and asking. She doesn't want to feel "hounded" for treats by either the dog, or her husband.


Absolutely. This has been the modus operandi of my wife for the last few years post Rapture...

Luckily for her the dog has a different agenda now...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> how often (per week) and I decide which days? Like, I get 2 tokens a week and I get to decide if I want to use them up Monday night and Tuesday morning or save them for the weekend or whatever. I really hate the idea of it being so mechanical, but I'm looking to have myself inserted as at least some part of the process.


That is the fallacy of setting SLA's between spouses. The non desiring spouse (aka the LD) will find every reason in the book to get out of the SLA frequency... 

There is a mechanical feel to it as well.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,
The strong emotional bond in your marriage drives a lot of good behavior for both of you. 

Unlikely as it is, I am confident that if your desire levels ever invert, your H would do the same for you. 




Catherine602 said:


> Thank you John. I appreciate your sharing. There are so few LD men who talk about how they feel. I am glad you stay around to share your experiences. It should inspire all LD people with HD partners.
> 
> I have to get psyched for sex too. I think I have a normal drive but have to make a conscious effort to concentrate on sex. When I do that and my husband is patient with foreplay, the fire is lit. His pilot light is always on, mine isn't. Save for about three consecutive days before my menses.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Thank you John. I appreciate your sharing. There are so few LD men who talk about how they feel. I am glad you stay around to share your experiences. It should inspire all LD people with HD partners.
> 
> I have to get psyched for sex too. I think I have a normal drive but have to make a conscious effort to concentrate on sex. When I do that and my husband is patient with foreplay, the fire is lit. His pilot light is always on, mine isn't. Save for about three consecutive days before my menses.


You're welcome Mrs. Catherine, glad I could help!

Mr. WorkingOnMe, I might have missed it on preceding pages, if I do I apologize, but I do wonder, what are your wife's ideal frequency, and yours? Will you two be satisfied with sex once a week without rejection? Meaning, you get to choose when within a week, and your wife won't reject and won't stop your moves, as long as it's once a week. Is this kind of negotiation possible?


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

deejov said:


> Isn't it kinda accepted that the LD partner sets the frequency? I know that is how it goes, but is this something you would want to change?


Only by the LD folks who think they should get it their way all the time.

I'm the LD person in my relationship right now, and that's simply not the case for me. If she wants it, she's getting it, with enthusiasm.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Larry,
Personally I think the guy who wrote the '5 love languages' did a good job. He only missed one, but it's a big one: sacrifice

Putting your partner first by doing what they want, when it really matters to them. 

That's love. 






larry.gray said:


> Only by the LD folks who think they should get it their way all the time.
> 
> I'm the LD person in my relationship right now, and that's simply not the case for me. If she wants it, she's getting it, with enthusiasm.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

"sacrifice?"

That's the part I just don't get. Yes, I'm having it more often than I would be led to have it if I was the one always initiating. But I have *FUN*. It feels good, it's connecting, and I like seeing her happy. How is this a sacrifice?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

WOM,
What is your plan to gain a better understanding of 'why' she does that? Ideally plan A, is to get a straight answer and plan B would be to come up with a couple of humorous responses to use that make the 'back off and wait for her to initiate' process less painfull.




WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm not missing that point. Actually that's pretty much how it goes. If she's in the mood then she expects that I'm up for it pretty much any time. And that's more or less true. But when I'm in the mood, we have to play the game where I initiate, she rejects and then initiates shortly thereafter.
> 
> The little short term rejection she does makes me go out of the mood and it's difficult for me to get back into it. It makes me tentative and she has to do everything (EVERYTHING) until I get my mojo back.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

The nuance that you may be overlooking about that survey is that each Yes on the form is actually written "Yes!!" -- with two exclamation points. A "period" or maybe even one exclamation point might be interpreted as "That could be fun, let's try it." In my little world, two exclamation points reads something like a bubbling, giddy "Oh heavens YES! That would sooo turn me on! This is a MUST!" 

When I filled out the form I went with "If she wants to" for most answers because honestly I'd love to try an idea if she's open to it, but very few are in the "I've been dying to try this" variety idea. I doubt any of them would elicit a "Yes!!" from my wife, but maybe she'll surprise me.

You seem pretty much set on interpreting the survey results in a way that validates your perception of your wife's sexual attitudes. An optimist might use this as an opportunity to go through the list together and talk about what titillates and what's really "if you'd like to try it, I'm game."

Best to you


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Larry,
Fair question. Putting the other persons wants/needs first IS sacrifice. How you feel about it, is separate. The fact that you are happy to do it - and get pleasure by doing it:
- Does not change what it 'is' in that sense. 
- It DOES change how it feels to your partner: feels like love, because it is
- And changes how it feels for you as well 


QUOTE=larry.gray;4285250]"sacrifice?"

That's the part I just don't get. Yes, I'm having it more often than I would be led to have it if I was the one always initiating. But I have *FUN*. It feels good, it's connecting, and I like seeing her happy. How is this a sacrifice?[/QUOTE]


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

Sounds to me like a case of she's just not that into having sex with you, but she is providing just enough duty sex (on her terms) so you won't leave her. The lack of kissing is a big clue. People can have duty sex, but they don't passionately kiss if they're not feeling it. Just my opinion of course. She's probably always been LD, but sexed it up while you were dating to get you to marry her. So many women do this classic bait and switch.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

She's always been a bit shy about kissing. She'll do it, but its not her first thought. For the record I've never seen her mother kiss her father. Or her sister kiss her husband for that matter.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Lack of kissing would be a red flag to me too based on my past with the ex. 

Like your wife, WOM, I never saw my ex's parents kiss in two decades. They never held hands and slept in separate beds for as long as I knew them. They stayed married for convenience and I am sure that this mind warped my ex.

Never again would I be with a man that did not value passionate kissing, it is a big clue IMHO.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Holland said:


> Lack of kissing would be a red flag to me too based on my past with the ex.
> 
> Like your wife, WOM, I never saw my ex's parents kiss in two decades. They never held hands and slept in separate beds for as long as I knew them. They stayed married for convenience and I am sure that this mind warped my ex.
> 
> Never again would I be with a man that did not value passionate kissing, it is a big clue IMHO.


Funny you say that. While her parents sleep in the same bed, her grandparents had separate rooms for as long as she can remember. Her dad and I are pretty good friends and we talk. I get the impression her mom is pretty "reserved" in bed.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Holland,
YES



QUOTE=Holland;4324594]Lack of kissing would be a red flag to me too based on my past with the ex. 

Like your wife, WOM, I never saw my ex's parents kiss in two decades. They never held hands and slept in separate beds for as long as I knew them. They stayed married for convenience and I am sure that this mind warped my ex.

Never again would I be with a man that did not value passionate kissing, it is a big clue IMHO.[/QUOTE]


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

Holland said:


> Never again would I be with a man that did not value passionate kissing, it is a big clue IMHO.


I agree. Anyone can have sex. But kissing shows real passion, love, and affection.

From reading your posts, WOM, I don't get a sense of fun and playfulness and in the bedroom between you and your wife. It seems like one big power struggle.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> She's always been a bit shy about kissing. She'll do it, but its not her first thought. For the record I've never seen her mother kiss her father. Or her sister kiss her husband for that matter.


Often people regard kissing, especially something more than a quick peck on the lips, as more intimate than sex. And if they are into avoiding intimacy they often avoid kissing. That may or may not be her thinking. But it's true for many.


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